# Customer concern



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Never had anything like that happen. Have had people tell me how to sell more honey, but not like what your experience seems like.

It seems like you tried to handle things as best you could under the circumstances. Some people can just be unreasonable.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I completely understand her gripe. I started this market because a long time fellow beekeeper decided he wasn't going to do the markets anymore. I suspect he is just looking to slow down and ease into a retirement. So as beekeepers we all run things similarly, however we also do things differently and this particular lady really enjoyed the way the other beekeeper did stuff. I very politely explained to her that I am not the other beekeeper, that I did not buy out the other beekeeper and this is how I run my business. My son listened with amazement to the conversation. Later he said he was very happy I was there to handle that customer because he would have been unsure of how to handle it, except to say he doesn't own the business nor make the decisions for the business.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Certainly you can do as you see fit but you did not mention one word of her "ranting" as to what she would have you do differently. That makes it hard for me to through her under the bus. It also gives me the feeling you weren't listening at all.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BMAC said:


> My son listened with amazement to the conversation. Later he said he was very happy I was there to handle that customer because he would have been unsure of how to handle it, except to say he doesn't own the business nor make the decisions for the business.


By your Son's assessment you must have handled this as best you could and as best as anyone could. Good job.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> That makes it hard for me to through her under the bus. It also gives me the feeling you weren't listening at all.


How strange that I would disagree w/ you about this.

BMAC was not coming here to throw anyone under the bus. He stated that he did listen to her and responded that the market was not the right time or place for this discussion. Which tells me, and should have told the customer, that he was interested in what she had to say, just not in that venue.

Man ... :doh:


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Certainly you can do as you see fit but you did not mention one word of her "ranting" as to what she would have you do differently. That makes it hard for me to through her under the bus. It also gives me the feeling you weren't listening at all.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I willfully omitted her concern/gripe. I wasn't much posting this for help or resolution of the situation, as I am experienced enough and quite capable of handling any resolution if a resolution is needed. Thanks for posting though.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

I deal with people a lot, and run across the few that "well you should do it this way", most couldn't find their butt with both hands tied behind their backs doing what I do.
Most of the time I recite the quote I learned long ago mentally and move on.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Those who can't teach, become Engineers.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

It sounds like you did a bang up job with this customer. Yes I have some difficult customers at times and pray for the patience it seems you displayed when it occurs. BMAC some people are hell bent on crossing lines, and she telling you how to run your business is crossing a line. If it keeps up she is probably not a customer worth dealing with. (Although I've had them come back like sheep after their initial muscle flex). 

"I certainly didn't want to drive her away and in the most tactful, polite fashion told her it's my business I will run it as I see fit."
The above is the best way to handle this problem IMO.
good job.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Yes it would have been easier to have been rude back, but she is a customer and I would like to keep her as a customer. That's kind of funny tho.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And you were out in public where who knows who was watching. Besides yourself. You have to live up to your own standards, not anyone else's.


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## Jackam (Jun 3, 2013)

_I hate to have to tell you this, but I agree with the lady at the Farmers Market. You are doing it ALL WRONG! I've lost sleep over this and if you would just try all of the things she said, everything would be so much better! _

A man sold me 2000 rounds of ammunition, every round produced by hand. I mentioned that it would probably be faster, and easier, if he bought an automated reloading machine. His response "I'm happy doing it this way. I can do it at my pace, I pay attention to the details, and it makes it fun - it's my hobby, of sorts."
Who was I to argue with someone that was happy with what he does to make money?!
There are so many people that hate what they do.

I have owned a business for 20 years. I have one motto - "I don't do business that don't make me smile." (It's a song lyric) and it has suited me well for two decades. It's my business and I run it in the way that makes me happiest.

You did well.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Clyde, Jack. Thanks. I appreciate the wisdom.

Mark you are correct. I have heard from folks losing business because of their mouths. Not because they sold an inferior product or were the most expensive around, but because of their attitude and mouth. I know for a fact this particular couple is no longer in business as I watched their business go from booming to bankrupt. Their attitude and what they freely expressed in public no doubt helped sink their business. 

Set aside customer service, I can't imagine being quite that rude to anyone.


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## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

In the Army, we used to say a bi****hin troop is a happy troop. But I too am amazed at the unsolicited advice I get from people who not only know nothing about bees, they know nothing about business yet feel compelled to tell me how I could do mine better.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

The customer is always right.

Except when they're teaching you how to run your business.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I always chuckle when people that tell me I'd sell more honey if I priced it cheaper.
How hard do they think I want to work?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Hard to know how to comment since we don't know what the customer said.

Obviously, a business owner is free to run his business however he wants. But also, a good business owner listens to his customers. Plus, sometimes good advice hurts.

I have watched more than one business suffer (shrink, stagnate, unneccessarily grow slowly) while the owner ignored his customer's legitimate complaints "because its not their business."

Did this customer's comments have merit?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Shinbone thats a great question. I do listen carefully to what customers have to say and more importantly watch closely to what is purchased. As with everything change is inevitable. Either we can grab that ball and run with it, or we can just ignore the ball that comes in our direction. 

The customer's comment doesn't really have merit. It truly isnt the voice of our customers in general. It's simply a person who must feel a more personal connection with the previous beekeeper. Which we understand those customers are there. We have built customer relationships and have customers that feel a personal connection with us. What we did when we started this market is have similarities as the previous beekeeper to help those who have a personal connection with the previous beekeeper transition over to us and our products. Obviously we dont want to look and feel exactly like the previous beekeeper, we have however went above and beyond normal customer service just for these folks already.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Mbeck said:


> I always chuckle when people that tell me I'd sell more honey if I priced it cheaper.
> How hard do they think I want to work?


We don't hear that we should be priced cheaper. Not even from our EBT customers.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

In addition to asking "_Did this customer's comments have merit?_", I should have also recited the well known adage that "it is impossible to make all the people happy all of the time."


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

_"Who out there has had to deal with difficult customers who really are customers?"_

I have in computers, and it has made me sour about selling services and in turn sour about my business. When I run across a customer like this, I simply walk away as if to not sell them the service. I will listen to them, but stand my ground on my ideas and interests. Or in your case I would have handed her money back and asked for the honey back. I would not let the human animal ruin my interest/passion/hobby again or stress me out about what I love to do. 

Then again, some of your worse customers can be your best paying customers from what I've found out. You have to say to yourself "is it worth it"?


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## Will O'Brien (Feb 22, 2006)

It could have been worse BMAC, you could be married to her. Some poor guy probably is.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Mbeck said:


> I always chuckle when people that tell me I'd sell more honey if I priced it cheaper.
> How hard do they think I want to work?


On this same note, while I haven't ever sold this way, I do know someone who does. I heard one of his customers say virtually the same thing about selling more honey. I loved how he answered: "Ah, but if I did that then I'd already be sold out and then what would I sell to you?" 

  

Rusty


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

What is so different between your sales approach and that of the other vendor?
Perhaps this lady had the guts to express her views whereas hundreds of others did not. If that is the case some modification of your approach may boost sales and loyalty in that particular market. I would be interested to know more specifics of the difference of opinion.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Will O'Brien said:


> It could have been worse BMAC, you could be married to her. Some poor guy probably is.


That's with the assumption she is interested in marrying a man. That topic is best left alone. I can say this, I don't treat my wife with such rudeness and she does not treat me with such rudeness.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

WBVC said:


> What is so different between your sales approach and that of the other vendor?
> Perhaps this lady had the guts to express her views whereas hundreds of others did not. If that is the case some modification of your approach may boost sales and loyalty in that particular market. I would be interested to know more specifics of the difference of opinion.


I will give you she has guts enough to be rude in public to someone she just met. As far as the difference between sales approach. It's a very mild difference. Essentially she is splitting hairs. It would be the difference between the way city water tastes in NYC and Boston. City water is city water, but maybe NY uses just a touch more chlorine.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

BMAC said:


> I will give you she has guts enough to be rude in public to someone she just met. As far as the difference between sales approach. It's a very mild difference. Essentially she is splitting hairs. It would be the difference between the way city water tastes in NYC and Boston. City water is city water, but maybe NY uses just a touch more chlorine.


I don't get the approach of not actually telling "us" about what she was talking about...

Was she more interested in varietal honey or something? Wanted glass jars instead of plastic? Wished you were wearing a hat shaped like a skep hive? Wanted you to bring a two frame observation hive for customers to look at?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

She had zero complaint about the product itself and made no mention of a lack of variety. Nothing to do with the presentation or anything of that sort. It had to do with what would fall into a special offer category. Essentially she was griping about what we offer on our special offer we should do more. Basically she was feeling entitled to more than what we are offering.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

BMAC said:


> She had zero complaint about the product itself and made no mention of a lack of variety. Nothing to do with the presentation or anything of that sort. It had to do with what would fall into a special offer category. Essentially she was griping about what we offer on our special offer we should do more. Basically she was feeling entitled to more than what we are offering.


Gotcha, so it was pricing related in a sense. I have never understood people who openly go after people about silly things like that. If she doesn't like it she can go elsewhere. But I am very much non-confrontational. I'd rather not sell to her than listen to her carp, moan, and complain for any amount of time.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Out of common courtesy we should all listen attentively to what others have to say about most anything. Listen, and then do what you think is correct. In my many years, I have learned some good lessons from some strange sources. It seems that your lady may be more concerned with HER having inexpensive honey, than with helping your business. Honey is such a great product that I hate to see beekeepers give it away.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

It would appear as though she wants cheap honey. I am not the only beekeeper in town, nor the only venue to purchase honey. I was tempted to refer her to walmart, but refrained. She is a customer and we value all our customers and try to make their shopping experience with us a personal one.

Yes AceBird this would include you, if you are ever inclined to buy our honey.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

BMAC said:


> It would appear as though she wants cheap honey. I am not the only beekeeper in town, nor the only venue to purchase honey. I was tempted to refer her to walmart, but refrained. She is a customer and we value all our customers and try to make their shopping experience with us a personal one.
> 
> Yes AceBird this would include you, if you are ever inclined to buy our honey.


Yep! It's not like you're the electric company. She can purchase her honey, at a price she deems a value. Obviously she thinks the price and quality of your product is worth what she is paying for it or she would purchase it elsewhere. I really wonder how some of these people were raised.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

BMAC said:


> she wants cheap honey.


Sounds like you need to raise your prices.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Jackam said:


> A man sold me 2000 rounds of ammunition, every round produced by hand. I mentioned that it would probably be faster, and easier, if he bought an automated reloading machine.
> 
> You did well.


I was driving down a back country road one time on the way to do an Apiary Inspection when I saw a farmer holding a pig up in the air so it could eat apples off of an apple tree. After I got finished w/ the inspection job I drove back the same way and saw the farmer holding up another pig. So I stopped and approached the fence and asked, "Wouldn't it be a better use of your time if you just shook the tree and allowed the pig to eat the apples off the ground?". To which the farmer replied, "What's time to a pig?"

I got back in my truck and drove on to the next job site. Right, what's time to a pig?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Mbeck said:


> I always chuckle when people that tell me I'd sell more honey if I priced it cheaper.
> How hard do they think I want to work?


I used to run a taxidermy business that started as a hobby I was at least $100 higher on deer heads than anybody around and people would tell me that all the time, I would simply say that if you want a cheaper mount, you can go to xxxx and they would reply, " but I like your work better" ......Sorry bub I aint walmart, I don't price match.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lazy shooter said:


> Out of common courtesy we should all listen attentively to what others have to say about most anything. Listen, and then do what you think is correct. In my many years, I have learned some good lessons from some strange sources. It seems that your lady may be more concerned with HER having inexpensive honey, than with helping your business. Honey is such a great product that I hate to see beekeepers give it away.


I believe that BMAC said that he did listen to her and suggested a better place to have the conversation, but she kept at it and after him, so he had to cut it off. That's what I got from what he wrote. There was no out back to take it. As I so often want to say to cashiers/workers at convenience stores who are "discussing" things among themselves in front of customers.

BMAC did what he could and did it well, from what I have read.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

AstroBee said:


> Sounds like you need to raise your prices.


Or package some wax melter honey especially for her.

I do have some customers every now and then who ask me if I have any low grade honey so they can use it to feed their dog or something. "Nope, sorry, my bees don't know how to make that kind of honey."


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

At almost every event I work I will have someone that wants to tell the beekeeper how the bees make honey. There are times i tell them to go down the road and find a brain surgeon to talk too.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Farmers markets are such a pain that I stopped them completely and just sell wholesale now.

I've never had such stupid questions asked of me:

Is your honey certified? (Whatever that means)
How come your honey is so expensive?
How come you don't sell organic honey? 
What if I bought one jar, can I get another one for half price or free?
I can buy honey at Safeway for a fraction of your cost.
Can you guarantee me that your honey will help my allergies?

The customer is not always right and they need to be told that. Then again, I don't need to rely
on honey sales for a living but it does supplement my retirement pension.


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## HatTrick (Oct 19, 2012)

It doesn't matter what you're into you'll find people that like to tell you 'what's what'. I'm a motor-head first and bee keeping is a 2nd hobby. It happens all the time at a car show or similar event that someone wants to voice whats wrong with a particular car. 

There are 2 kinds of people that do so. The first are genuine car guys that get as much from your input as they are providing information to you that you may not know. I was at a car show this weekend and got a lot of great info on a car I recently purchased. These are the guys I look forward to making a connection with as they are genuinely interested in the car and in the end they accept that its mine to do with as I please, just as they will do as they please with their own cars. 

The second tend to say things to make themselves sound important or knowledgeable. I don' know how many times I've heard someone pick apart and talk down a car because the 'stripe that was on it wasn't offered' or other non-original complaint which is often wrong. Usually these people don't recognize that what ever they are criticizing is to the owner's personal taste. Another observation I've made about people in this 2nd category is they don't have anything at the show if they own a car at all.

Like others have said you (generically, not directed at anyone) just have to let it roll off, because it can make whatever your into less enjoyable if you don't.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rtoney said:


> At almost every event I work I will have someone that wants to tell the beekeeper how the bees make honey. There are times i tell them to go down the road and find a brain surgeon to talk too.


:lpf::lpf:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Charlie B said:


> I've never had such stupid questions asked of me:
> 
> Is your honey certified? (Whatever that means)
> How come your honey is so expensive?
> ...


I worked at an Historical Museum demonstrating 18th Century timber frame contruction and talking to whomever showed up about what we were doing and how. I bet we could have come up w/ a list of the top 100 things people said that struck us funny or stupid or assenine. Some times we did have a laugh over what people said or asked.

One of my favorites usually came while Roy and I were ripping a log into 8 inch wide tulip poplar weather board siding. Someone in the crowd would chuckle and say, "I got a chainsaw in my car. Do you want me to go get it?" I heard that one when riving shingles w/ a fro and maul or when hewing timbers w/ a felling ax and broad ax. Sometimes we replied, "No thanks. We don't have any chain we needed sawn. If we had chain that needed cutting we'd take it to the Blacksmith's Shop,"

One time a couple saw three of us working in the yard making shingles or something. They were leaning on the fence watching and asking questions. Then they said to me, "Are you that Roy Underhill guy? We just love your TV Show on PBS." and on and on. After a while I stopped them and said, "No, I am not Roy. This is Roy." Pointing to Bill Weldon. They started up again w/ the praise, until Bill interrupted them and introduced them to the real Roy Underhill who had been talking to someone else. Neither Bill or I look like Roy at all. The only red hair I had at the time was on my face.

People are funny.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Acebird said:


> Certainly you can do as you see fit but you did not mention one word of her "ranting" as to what she would have you do differently. That makes it hard for me to through her under the bus. It also gives me the feeling you weren't listening at all.


It seems obvious that you did not care to read BMAC's post. He explained to the lady that he did not believe that the FAIR was the forum to conduct this discussion.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Mark, I'm surprised that you didn't tell them that _only _18th Century gas/oil would be acceptable to use with that chainsaw.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Hops Brewster said:


> The customer is always right.


Maybe you can make them someone ELSE's customer. 

Ten or so years ago I read a story about an up-and-coming airline. Seems like they had a customer who had a complaint that the normal channels in the airline could not satisfy. The problem rose through the hierarchy of the company to the president of the company. He carefully investigated with his people at several levels before writing a letter to the unhappy customer. The letter began: "I am sorry you will not be flying with us anymore...".


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Mark, I'm surprised that you didn't tell them that _only _18th Century gas/oil would be acceptable to use with that chainsaw.


We tried our best to keep the conversation in terms of the 18th century.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> We tried our best to keep the conversation in terms of the 18th century.


Kinda salty, like?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I believe that BMAC said that he did listen to her and suggested a better place to have the conversation, but she kept at it and after him, so he had to cut it off. That's what I got from what he wrote. There was no out back to take it. As I so often want to say to cashiers/workers at convenience stores who are "discussing" things among themselves in front of customers.
> 
> BMAC did what he could and did it well, from what I have read.


Thanks Mark.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Or package some wax melter honey especially for her.
> 
> I do have some customers every now and then who ask me if I have any low grade honey so they can use it to feed their dog or something. "Nope, sorry, my bees don't know how to make that kind of honey."


That is funny. We must share customers. Actually I have only ever been approached by one who asked for low grade honey or seconds. He used the refference of Maple Syrup. I asked him if he understood the process the bees use to make the honey. He didn't, so I educated him and stated the only low grade honey I have is the stuff I scrape off the floor and feed to my animals.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

philip.devos said:


> Maybe you can make them someone ELSE's customer.
> 
> Ten or so years ago I read a story about an up-and-coming airline. Seems like they had a customer who had a complaint that the normal channels in the airline could not satisfy. The problem rose through the hierarchy of the company to the president of the company. He carefully investigated with his people at several levels before writing a letter to the unhappy customer. The letter began: "I am sorry you will not be flying with us anymore...".


A very good friend of mine told me when I first got into business for myself that I couldn't have everyone for a customer. He is correct. I can't, nor do I want everyone for a customer. However I also see merit in genuine concern for the customer's thoughts and show appreciation of them being a customer. After that, it will NOT hurt my feelings if I never see or talk to her again.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Had one like that.
I politely stated that I would take her suggestion under advisement. Her suggestion was to sell at the local farm market. lol
After researching her advice, I would have to sell 20 jars per 8 hour day to break even on costs associated (space rent, insurance, fuel) with the farmers market.
There are also two others selling honey there. 
I found it more cost effective to have the customers pick up from the farm I pollinate for. The farmer's wife loves to sell and most time upsells. I sell more than 20 per day.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BMAC said:


> Actually I have only ever been approached by one who asked for low grade honey or seconds. He used the refference of Maple Syrup.


Isn't this customer correct? Isn't honey graded? To me a better answer would be "I don't grade my honey. I sell it as what you see is what you get".
I think that most people who know what they are looking for know that the stereotypical beekeeper is a grumpy old fart and they take that into consideration when they approach a beekeeper selling honey. You should be thankful that your customers don't know how simple it is to collect honey from bees.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Brian I am thankful for all your responses. 

Honey is graded. Now please educate us about the differences between grading honey and maple syrup.

As far as stereotypical beekeepers being grumpy old farts leads me to believe you haven't met alot of them. There are several young women that I sell NUCs that would disagree with you. Not to mention another dozen or so commercial operators I know and work with regularly.

I welcome customers out to see how simply it is to collect the honey from the bees and then bottle it and cart it to the market to show them just how easy it is for them to take on the endeavor of becoming a beekeeper. So far I don't have any takers. Most people can't stand the thought of stinging insects and many of them refer to the bees themselves as "gross". I never thought of bees as being gross, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Isn't this customer correct? Isn't honey graded? To me a better answer would be "I don't grade my honey. I sell it as what you see is what you get".
> I think that most people who know what they are looking for know that the stereotypical beekeeper is a grumpy old fart and they take that into consideration when they approach a beekeeper selling honey. You should be thankful that your customers don't know how simple it is to collect honey from bees.


The level of ignorance displayed in this post amazes me.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BMAC said:


> So far I don't have any takers.


What you described is a job, working for you. Something totally different than having a couple of hives in the back yard. The other people you described may not be grumpy old farts but also may not think of customers as a bother. You should try to run a self storage facility to get a taste for difficult customers. I could never do it myself but my wife is a master at it. She has taught me just a little how to rethink that these people are our meal tickets. It still doesn't make it easy.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Im not describing a job for someone to work for me. Do you pull honey? Do you extract honey? Do you bottle extracted honey? You think I am describing a job because you know I have many hive and sell the honey. Do people with 1 backyard hive have less steps to take to bottling the honey than I do?

I do not want a self storage facility. If I wanted one I would have bought or built one. I wanted to keep bees and sell honey. Customers are customers. Difficult customers are difficult customers whether it's with honey or people that want to rent storage space.

You have not educated us on how to grade honey and the differences with grading maple syrup. Will you educate us?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I think that most people who know what they are looking for know that the stereotypical beekeeper is a grumpy old fart and they take that into consideration when they approach a beekeeper selling honey.


Is that your personal concept of your stereotypical beekeeper or have you done extensive research into what "most people" know? I have no reason to think or believe that most people know anything about the disposition of the stereotypical beekeeper. I bet if you did an on the street survey you would come away w/ many different answers.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

BMAC said:


> So far I don't have any takers. Most people can't stand the thought of stinging insects and many of them refer to the bees themselves as "gross". I never thought of bees as being gross, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.


Maybe you are not looking in the right places. I find takers regularly. I have people where I have located my hives that almost without exception ask me to introduce their children or grand children to the bees. I have never had one person call a bee gross. In fact most are concerned with how they are doing. People interested in getting bees hunt me down to get them. I do find most people have unreasonable concerns about being stung. but then bees do sting. I suspect few have taken the time to push it to that determining line of when. Most have no interest in doing so.

Don't forget that those that keep bees are the minority. It is the rest of society that is smart enough to leave it to us. I actually do use that thought to keep myself in what I consider an accurate view of what I do. I keep bees because I am adequately mentally damaged enough to do so.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> You should try to run a self storage facility to get a taste for difficult customers. I could never do it myself but my wife is a master at it. She has taught me just a little how to rethink that these people are our meal tickets. It still doesn't make it easy.


Have you ever stopped to think that the problem isn't the other people, but how one looks upon them? If you saw others as people just like you, doing the best they can, just like you, maybe you would see them as more than just meal tickets. Maybe another attitude adjustment is in order.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> I keep bees because I am adequately mentally damaged enough to do so.


Special, Daniel. You keep bees because you are special.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

BMAC said:


> You have not educated us on how to grade honey and the differences with grading maple syrup. Will you educate us?


Maple syrup is the refined product of Molasses. Molasses in act has three grades. So in comparison you are asking for an explanation of the grading of refined or ultra filtered honey. there are no such grades because the raw product has been refined for the purpose of removing any gradable variation.

Honey is in fact graded and your customer was asking for low grade honey. I have seen this before for the purpose of using it as baking honey. Not a request I woudl find unusual. I would simply reply I do not offer baking honey. If you have some problem that you do not offer everything everyone could possibly want. I suggest you work on that. I on the other hand never desired to and never expect to.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel, BMAC was asking Acebird, I think mostly to find out what Acebird knows, not what the real answer is. I am sure that BMAC knows all he needs to know about Grading Honey and Grading Maple Syrup.

In NY and New England Maple Syrup comes from sap from Maple Trees, not from Molasses, which comes from sugar cane or sorghum stalks. Maybe there are different sources in NV.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Acebird said:


> You should be thankful that your customers don't know how simple it is to collect honey from bees.


Really?? Let's then suggest to Barry that he can now officially close down beesource, because all of this is just too easy...

You've had some memorable quotes over the years, but this one ranks up there with your "best".


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I think the _*bucket o' water *hurricane hive hold-down_ thread will be really tough to beat!


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Daniel Y said:


> I suggest you work on that.


 As always I appreciate all suggestions.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Daniel, BMAC was asking Acebird, I think mostly to find out what Acebird knows, not what the real answer is. I am sure that BMAC knows all he needs to know about Grading Honey and Grading Maple Syrup.
> 
> In NY and New England Maple Syrup comes from sap from Maple Trees, not from Molasses, which comes from sugar cane or sorghum stalks. Maybe there are different sources in NV.


Only different source of Maple Syrup I am aware of is actually pancake syrup or waffle syrup which is mostly corn syrup last time I checked. Isn't that Log Cabin Syrup? Looks like Molasses.

However yes Mark is spot on.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I think the _*bucket o' water *hurricane hive hold-down_ thread will be really tough to beat!


Please provide link. I want a good chuckle.


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## FollowtheHoney (Mar 31, 2014)

"What if I bought one jar, can I get another one for half price or free"

Maybe you need a sign like this for honey instead:


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Just as there isn't an alternate source of honey other than from the nectar of flowers, I am not aware or any alternate source of maple syrup other than from the sap of the maple tree.

Wayne


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

The most commonly known is the excretion of aphids during dearths. It's called honeydew honey. Im sure as sweet as Sugar Maple sap the bees would work that and store it as honey if they were flying during those days of the good runs.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here you go, Brian.
Strictly for an _academic _comparison, of course. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...s-and-high-winds-question&highlight=Hurricane


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Brian Cardinal should not go into Sales or Public Relations. Best to stay an Industrial Engineer where public contact can be kept to a minimum.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Well ..... 


Acebird said:


> I have a lawn care / snow plow business and manage a 48 unit rental complex.




(click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the original post/thread)


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*A very good friend of mine told me when I first got into business for myself that I couldn't have everyone for a customer. He is correct. I can't, nor do I want everyone for a customer. *

I've refused to take work from prior customers because they were to much of a burden. Money is money and one customer can pay you 100$ and cause you 200$ in grief, don't need those people as customers. 

~Matt


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well .....


What is the truth? First he says he manages the rental complex and now he says his wife runs it? Either way, I would not send Brian to sell honey for me.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

From other posts, my understanding is the Mrs manages the mini-storage, and the Mr is the apartment manager.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

FollowtheHoney said:


> View attachment 12868



I actually use that sign at the farmer's market (substituting honey of course) ......it gets a lot of looks.....then laughs. Also have another that reads "Free Honey.............tomorrow!!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BMAC said:


> Do people with 1 backyard hive have less steps to take to bottling the honey than I do?


It took me awhile to find it. Post #13

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...and-Strain-equipment&highlight=foundationless
There can be a huge difference.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BMAC said:


> Honey is graded. Now please educate us about the differences between grading honey and maple syrup.


I thought this was a trick question because the info is available all over the net.

Honey:
http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3011895
Maple syrup:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/23/maple-syrup-grades_n_1167767.html


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

***


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> In NY and New England Maple Syrup comes from sap from Maple Trees, not from Molasses, which comes from sugar cane or sorghum stalks. Maybe there are different sources in NV.


Growing up the sap of a maple tree was called molasses. I didn't realize until now that it must have been a local thing.


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## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

Its not how you handle the routine that makes your business, its how you handle the difficulties. That said some people do like to intimidate others, know more than you, and cause 90% of your headaches.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> Growing up the sap of a maple tree was called molasses. I didn't realize until now that it must have been a local thing.


Interesting. Where did you grow up?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I thought this was a trick question because the info is available all over the net.
> 
> Honey:
> http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3011895
> ...


Not a trick question. The huffington post has incorrect information in their article and I would hardly consider them the resource for grading Maple Syrup. However let's pretend it's accurate the absolute resource of grading Maple Syrup for the United States. 

What is it in the process of making Maple Syrup that seperates the grades and color of it?

What is it in the process of making Honey that seperates the grades and the color of it?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Daniel Y said:


> Growing up the sap of a maple tree was called molasses. I didn't realize until now that it must have been a local thing.


Molasses is the product of boiling down Sugar cane juice until it is a dark thick liquid. Sap from a maple tree is called Sap, and the process of collecting it and turning it into Maple Syrup is commonly reffered to as Sugaring. Molasses has never come into that picture. However take that with a grain of salt. I am not the know all there is about Maple Syrup. I just been around it 90% of my life and worked it when the need to help was there.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

***


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BMAC said:


> What is it in the process of making Maple Syrup that seperates the grades and color of it?
> 
> What is it in the process of making Honey that seperates the grades and the color of it?


You are asking questions you know so they are trick questions. The point is there is a system for grading honey and there is a system for grading maple syrup so how was the customer so far off? Apparently the customer didn't realize that they were dealing with someone that acts like a grumpy old fart. I'll bet that has changed.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Brian how is it a trick question? Anyone that knows anything about Maple Syrup production knows the answer to the first question and anyone who knows anything about honey production knows the answer to the second question. How is it tricky? 

As fas as how the customer being so far off I want you to answer how they were far off. If the best you have is that I am a grumpy old fart. You know nothing about me aside of what I post here or you have seen on my website. Other than that, you have no clue. 

I challenge your knowledge of what you freely write. I am not judging your knowledge or intellect, but rather challenging your knowledge as I suspect you know very little if anything of what you write.

Who are you to judge my character, essentially judging me?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Do you think this might have a bearing on the situation ... 



Acebird said:


> Practically everything that I suggest is speculation with the intent that someone will correct what is wrong with the idea.



:gh:


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

***


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Interesting. Where did you grow up?


I grew up in Kansas, Started out 20 miles from the western boarder and ended up near the Eastern Boarder. Lived in Syracuse, Garden City, Liberal, Salina and Manhattan. But both sides of my family where in Syracuse. My mother moved to Reno after my parents divorced. She remarried and moved to Reno when I was ten. I spent the next 6 years either living on my fathers farm helping him run it or living in Reno running with street gangs. At 16 I moved back to Reno got a job bought a car and have supported myself since. I had been running my fathers farm managing his Dog Kennel. Running my own hog operation and working three part times jobs for two years by then. When I returned to Reno I decided I didn't need anyone to take care of me. I did a pretty good job of that myself. So I stayed in Reno and have not left again since.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BMAC said:


> Who are you to judge my character, essentially judging me?


I am sorry for the judgement phrase. I edited my post.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Its still judgement. How do you honestly know how I act. I have never met you. I know as much of you as you know of me. Which is limited to the interactions beesource.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BMAC said:


> I can't, nor do I want everyone for a customer. ... it will NOT hurt my feelings if I never see or talk to her again.


This to me is acting like a grumpy old fart. Great, a bunch of beekeepers making fun of potential customers (most I will say are more educated than that of the beekeeper).


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> You are asking questions you know so they are trick questions.


Of course he knows the questions. But, do you know the answers? That is the question. Not whether you know how to look for the answers on the internet, but whether you know the answers in your brain.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

Daniel Y said:


> Growing up the sap of a maple tree was called molasses. I didn't realize until now that it must have been a local thing.


That is the strangest definition of molasses I have ever read!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> The point is there is a system for grading honey and there is a system for grading maple syrup so how was the customer so far off?


Did BMAC say anything about his customer asking him for a certain grade of honey? I missed that.

Do you sell one grade of honey for one price and another grade of honey for another price? The only difference in price in the honeys I sell, besides by the jar size, are by floral source, not by grade.

What do you​ mean by Grade?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> I grew up in Kansas, Started out 20 miles from the western boarder and ended up near the Eastern Boarder. Lived in Syracuse, Garden City, Liberal, Salina and Manhattan. But both sides of my family where in Syracuse. My mother moved to Reno after my parents divorced. She remarried and moved to Reno when I was ten. I spent the next 6 years either living on my fathers farm helping him run it or living in Reno running with street gangs. At 16 I moved back to Reno got a job bought a car and have supported myself since. I had been running my fathers farm managing his Dog Kennel. Running my own hog operation and working three part times jobs for two years by then. When I returned to Reno I decided I didn't need anyone to take care of me. I did a pretty good job of that myself. So I stayed in Reno and have not left again since.


Wow, I wasn't expecting that detailed an answer. But, thanks. Are there very many Maple trees in KS and NV?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Great, a bunch of beekeepers making fun of potential customers (most I will say are more educated than that of the beekeeper).


Care to quote the passages illustrating anyone making fun of any potential customer? BMAC has written about a customer of his and I saw nothing which I would characterize as making fun of her. Maybe you see things differently.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

There *are* different grades of honey: #1, #2, #3. However, it's mostly about the humidity, and various actions can be undertaken to correct it.

Maybe they'd have been willing to buy honey with high-ish humidity for cheaper? Doesn't sound like that bad a deal... water content increases total volume, and bringing it down costs time, energy, and equipment. And if they were planning on eating it quickly enough, there really isn't much risk of fermentation. And if it does... untaxed mead?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Great, a bunch of beekeepers making fun of potential customers (most I will say are more educated than that of the beekeeper).


Thanks for your post. 

Are you speaking about the education of beekeepers based upon your own education?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> This to me is acting like a grumpy old fart. Great, a bunch of beekeepers making fun of potential customers (most I will say are more educated than that of the beekeeper).


Just because you think you recognize yourself in others doesn't mean it is so. No one has been making fun of anyone, but you have been entertaining and apparently you think you know things not necessarily true. How can you possibly actually know anything about anyone's level of education?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

He could know my education level. I have freely posted it on Beesource.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Where would he find your customer's education info? Or more specifically everyone else's? It's a silly thing to say. As if one can make blanket statements about different sets of people. Smacks of a prejudicial mindset.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Well there is education, and then there is education. I received an engineering degree in 1963 and a second degree in 1965. I have been practicing petroleum engineering since that 1965. If you are referring to my engineering abilities, I think I am pretty we'll educated, but if you are talking about bees, beekeeping and honey, I very well may be the most ignorant among us. So much for education!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Just like Brian "Acebird" Cardinal. Sorry, lazyshooter, he's an engineer too. He himself has said.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> No one has been making fun of anyone,


Really? The whole tone of this thread is making fun of customers. That smacks of a prejudicial mindset.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Please explain your opinion. We are not understanding this situation the way you understand it. Help us see it the way you see it.

How is this thread prejudicial?

What tone of this thread is making fun of customers?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

This thread is an insult to customers. and a poor example of some beekeepers attitude toward them. You mean a customer at a farmers market might bargain for a better deal? Oh My!


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Daniel why don't you better explain your opinion on this. 

Are you personally finding this thread offending?


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Just like Brian "Acebird" Cardinal. Sorry, lazyshooter, he's an engineer too. He himself has said.


Sqkcrk:

You missed my point. I guess I didn't make myself clear. It's not that I think engineers are smart. It's that we are all smart about different matters. I occasionally work for a real "rocket scientist." He knows more about rocket propulsion than almost anyone, but he hires me to look after his oil and gas interests, as he is almost totally ignorant about such matters. 

Your customers, as a whole, do not know near as much as you about any aspect of beekeeping as do you. You are more educated than they about beekeeping. That was my whole point.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I didn't express myself well. I was poking fun at people who call themselves engineers as if by doing so everyone would automatically know that they knew something and were equally as intelligent as each other and superior to others, just because they have a degree in engineering.

We are all smart about different matters. And some of us are better than others at explaining things.

"as a *****"? Maybe you might want to edit that? I try to edit before hitting the "Post Quick Reply" button.  I assume I know what you meant. "as a [whole]", right?


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I didn't express myself well. I was poking fun at people who call themselves engineers as if by doing so everyone would automatically know that they knew something and were equally as intelligent as each other and superior to others, just because they have a degree in engineering.
> 
> We are all smart about different matters. And some of us are better than others at explaining things.
> 
> "as a *****"? Maybe you might want to edit that? I try to edit before hitting the "Post Quick Reply" button.  I assume I know what you meant. "as a [whole]", right?


Yep, I meant whole. I don't know if I made a typo or if spell check got me again.


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## warmbees (Mar 4, 2014)

BMAC, I've enjoyed your comments and can relate, and I believe we are seeing your original experience played out in this thread! It's kinda like you were sharing your frustrations with fellow beekeepers... "The incredulity of that lady"... And someone let her into this conversation - so to speak.

Have you ever noticed that there are people that can only see the "glass half empty"? They are the kind of people that could look at a puppy and find something wrong with it. I am amazed all the time that civility exists. To bring any number of people to a table and expect any form of consensus, I believe to be nearly futile! If that table is a forum on the internet, and available world wide... Well, we all know how that is going, we see that on most threads daily.

*There is gold in there buried deep:* To summarize... 

1. Without customers, we don't have a job, or we would sure have a lot of honey gathering dust and changing grade.
2. Some customers are a full-on pain in the buttocks!
3. Some people in this conversation would rather let their honey pile up and change grade, than deal with that buttock pain. Don't need it!
4. Half empty glass lovers, are also hopeless underdog advocates, and feel very strongly that all buttock pain should be endured, dignity be ****ed
5. Some know more or less what others think others may or may not know... I think
6. We don't envy Barry, and appreciate the difficulty of his job to moderate this stuff!
7. Some readers of this thread agree strongly with number 1.
8. Other readers of this thread agree strongly with number 3.
9. If those from 4. can't change the minds from those from 3. then Barry will need to stay on his toes.
10. Then there's Laurie - she chose to follow Thumper's mantra... with that single empty edited post, she stuck a toe in and pulled it right back out and put her socks back on! "NOPE! NOT GONNA DO IT! THERE'S GREMLINS IN THERE!"

BE VEWY VEWY QUIET! THEW'S A WABBIT WIGHT OVER THEWE AND I'M GONNA GWAB IT!... NO! WABBITS, I MEAN RABBITS HAVE RIGHTS TOO!


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Nice summary, and well written.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

By the tone of some in this thread, bees are not the only ones who get miffy during a dearth! lol
Now THAT'S funny right there.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Just like Brian "Acebird" Cardinal. Sorry, lazyshooter, he's an engineer too. He himself has said.


Hardly. He is a maintenance man posing as an engineer. He said so himself. I was thinking of contacting the New York State Board of Professional Engineering and Land Surveying to see what they think about it.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Really? The whole tone of this thread is making fun of *Acebird*. That smacks of a prejudicial mindset.


FTFY




What smacks of a prejudicial mindset:?


Acebird said:


> This to me is acting like a *grumpy old fart*. Great, a bunch of beekeepers making fun of potential customers (*most I will say are more educated than that of the beekeeper*).


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## fishin coyote (Jul 9, 2012)

I'm gonna stick my hand out in a token of friendship and brotherly love and say "Thanks",this has been quite an entertaining read.
Carry on
Mike


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lazy shooter said:


> Yep, I meant whole. I don't know if I made a typo or if spell check got me again.


Or you slipped on Freud's banana peel?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> "as a *****"? Maybe you might want to edit that? I try to edit before hitting the "Post Quick Reply" button.  I assume I know what you meant. "as a [whole]", right?


Well a lot of engineers are conslutants.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Or you slipped on Freud's banana peel?


Sometimes a banana is just a cigar.

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nabber86 said:


> Well a lot of engineers are conslutants.


Not all engineers are equally created.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> I was thinking of contacting the New York State Board of Professional Engineering and Land Surveying to see what they think about it.


They would laugh at your inquiry. You could call me a maintenance man for what I do now but that isn't the title. The title is property manager. There are 12 complexes in the corporation and mine is the shining star after 9-10 months on the job. I know you are trying to insult me but I see nothing wrong with being a maintenance man. I don't have your prejudice. People react positively to someone that works hard and can solve their issues.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

But you told us that you are an engineer. U never said you were a custodial engineer.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> They would laugh at your inquiry. You could call me a maintenance man for what I do now but that isn't the title. The title is property manager. There are 12 complexes in the corporation and mine is the shining star after 9-10 months on the job. I know you are trying to insult me but I see nothing wrong with being a maintenance man. I don't have your prejudice. People react positively to someone that works hard and can solve their issues.


Nothing wrong with being a maintenance man and no insult was intended; nor prejudice. The issue is that you claimed to be something that you are not for that last 4 years and using that false pretense in an attempt to lend credibility to your argument(s). 

I am glad that you have finally come clean (I noticed that you corrected your profile as well). However, I do not appreciate the way you twist your posts around to make it look like I am insulting somebody that is a maintenance man. I suppose that is to gain popular support, right? If you told me that you were a politician in the past, I would believe that without question.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I am not sure you know what an apartment manager is. It has nothing to do with engineering. Prior to this job I did mechanical engineering for almost 35 years with lots and lots of successes. The claim to be something I am not strikes me funny.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Prior to this job I did mechanical engineering for almost 35 years with lots and lots of successes.


Right, and you were licensed in what state and went to school where?






> =Acebird; I use to be a *practical* mechanical engineer but now I am just a putterer.


In other words you were in equipment maintenance, not engineering. Again I am not insulting you because you are a property manager, maintenance man, or putterer. The issue is that you claimed over and over again to be something that you are not for that last 4 years and using that false pretense in an attempt to lend credibility to your argument(s).


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

From a thread in March 2013 ...


Acebird said:


> I am a mechanical engineer and ....



:lookout:


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