# When is the best time to treat for mites



## thomas (Apr 23, 2006)

Hello

I was wondering when would be the best time to treat for mites in the spring or summer and fall which one would be best i normally treat in the fall but woiuld like to get them some time in the spring which month would be best.


TOM


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## clintonbemrose (Oct 23, 2001)

First test to see if you have a problem. Then if you do remove all suppers and then treat with your choice but follow the directions for the treatment.
Clint


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When there is no brood. 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Never


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I agree with Buzzybee, and I haven't treated ever.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Bizzybee said:


> Never


For a beginning beekeeper I wouldn't suggest not treating. If, after a couple of seasons they've lost all of their colonies many will likely abandon beekeeping. I agree with Clint. Learn how to estimate the level of infestation and then treat accordingly. As you become more experienced experiment with 'survivor' outyards using whatever techniques fit your personal philosophy.

Biz, I didn't know you were not treating. 
Have a great New Year


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Thanks to my being negligent about keeping in touch with the rest of the beekeeping world, I was unaware of the prevalence of both tracheal and _Varroa _mites until about 4-5 years after I and my bees had been living with them. At that time I found out the hives were only supposed to survive for a maximum of two years without mite treatments. Its now been at least another ten years beyond the first 4-5, and I haven't told the bees yet, nor provided any treatments. Oh, well!

I certainly wouldn't want to be the one to advise someone to use toxic substances, where they or anyone might be affected by those toxic substances, however safe they have been proven. If I couldn't feel safe putting a spoonful into my mouth and swallowing it down, I sure wouldn't advise anyone to use it on their bees or if they were ever planning to eat any honey from their bees.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Joseph Clemens said:


> At that time I found out the hives were only supposed to survive for a maximum of two years without mite treatments. Its now been at least another ten years beyond the first 4-5, and I haven't told the bees yet, nor provided any treatments. Oh, well!


Of course, you're right. Let me add to my earlier statement:

If you live in the Tucson area or any other area that has a high population of AHB you probably needn't be concerned about treating for varroa. Oh, well!


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

I agree wholeheartedly with what beemandan and clintonbemrose said and they were VERY helpfull and eloquent in their statements regarding your question. On the other hand, the comments from J.Clemens and BizzyB were somewhat brief,...terse,..and seemed a bit,............"upitty" for the sub-forum about people seeking help with dealing with,.. "Diseases and Pests". Maybe their comments should be reserved for,..."Biological Beekeeping". You can see thomas, that J.Clemens has been keeping bees since 1964! and probably has MANY hives to work with in regards to,... NO CHEMICAL TREATMENTS.


thomas: Though I had some experience with beekeeping 45 years ago, I have had bees for only 4 years now. From reading some of your previous posts it appears that you have had bees for about 2 years now. I am sure [hope] you have been doing your "reading and research" as far as beekeeping and treatments for the various,.."Pests and Diseases". In your part of the country I am sure the nectar flow is different from my area. The start of the nectar flow for your bees may be in April, while mine doesn't begin until June so I can't say anything about what month to treat. Certainly you DON'T treat during a nectar flow. You also must be aware of the nectar flows in your area and END TREATMENTS with sufficient time [weeks] before your nectar flows. In the fall, ALL honey that you want to remove/harvest, MUST BE removed before autumn "treatments".


In "deference",.....to the comments of J.Clemens, BizzyB and of course,. Michael Bush; I am moving toward reducing my use of chemicals by inserting small cell foundation [already have] and doing powdered sugar dusting this spring. This is something you may consider thomas, as you gain more experience with "keeping" your bees. So,..Happy New Year!


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## Natural Resources (Dec 21, 2007)

From numerous lectures from North Carolina bee inspectors, the best time to treat with chemicals is during the early spring and late fall, before and after the honey flow. Of course, it is recommended that you perform a test for mites first (sticky board, sugar shake, ether role). Also dont forget that different chemicals require certain temperature ranges to fumigate or disperse through the hive. I treat around the first of October and as needed during the early spring. Remember that honey in the hive during treatment is unsafe for human consumption. Linked are some good reference info.
[URL="http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/PDF%20files/2.03.pdf"]http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/PDF%20files/2.01.pdf[/URL]


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Never have never will beeman. Heck of a lot less work and worry I think! 



Only suggest not using poisons to those that want to hear it? Interesting philosophy??


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Bizzybee said:


> Never have never will beeman.


In my old age I've become cautious about using the word 'never'. Seems I, invariably, have to eat those words.


Bizzybee said:


> Only suggest not using poisons to those that want to hear it? Interesting philosophy??


Biz, Do you consider powdered sugar 'poison'? Its not a question, in my opinion, of only suggesting non-treatments to those who want to hear it. Its allowing new beekeepers some time to gain experience and confidence before suggesting that they undertake more challenging approaches. I've seen a number of new beekeepers give up on beekeeping after only a season or two because of their (likely) varroa losses. I, personally, think running untreated hives is admirable, especially since I've had so little success with it myself. I consider myself a fair beekeeper with some experience. From what I've seen going entirely treatment free typically results in significant losses. Not necessarily a good introduction for the beginner.

Are you small cell?
Just curious.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Mites -vs- Treatments*

After some further consideration of this issue, I have decided to add an additional comment to my earlier, terse, writings. The idea that comes to mind is often thought of as, perhaps, cliché:

If something isn't broken, perhaps we shouldn't try to "fix it", as often when that item which happens to be in perfect working order is "repaired", that repair will oftentimes, "break it".

I've not yet heard of any treatments that completely eliminate the mites, so its generally conceded that mites are somewhat ubiquitous. Being that mites are basically always present, might it not be okay to wait until the bees are showing obvious symptoms of trouble before we take measures as drastic as introducing toxic substances or even powdered sugar, since none of these, including powdered sugar are naturally found in beehives. Since the bees are predominantly autonomous creatures and will follow their own insect minds, rather than what we beekeepers would prefer, I wouldn't feel confident that these treatments wouldn't be distributed throughout the entire hive, if only in trace amounts.

If my bees' mite tolerance is due to AHB genetic influence, then their Cordovan Italian queens, which came from Koehnen & Sons. are AHB, and their mild behavior (reminding me of the Starline bee of earlier years) and productiveness certainly speak well for AHB, and I would expect the Koehnen's would be quite surprised and the beekeeping world, at least in the Americas might be overjoyed to have AHB that are easier to manage than many EHB.

I am not, nor would I, give blanket advice against any and all treatments, just a caution to be aware of what the use of treatments might possibly engender. My personal inclination is to use no treatments. I can't guarantee that the bees are not bringing in toxins (manmade or natural), when they forage, but I can refrain from my own intentional introduction of foreign substances.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Weakened, mite-infested bees do not produce healthy bees. Some think the "best" time to treat a KNOWN high-level infestation is PRIOR to the rearing of winter bees. They suggest August as the "perfect" time for treatment.

Spring treatment (Feb) has been shown to NOT to be very helpful in reducing summer mite numbers.

When to treat? Guess it depends on who you ask


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

<<<<They suggest August as the "perfect" time for treatment.>>>>>

This works only with “long time treatments” like Apistran and Chumaphos, Formic Acid and Thymol evaporation, to reach a “relative good” result this treatments going over more than one brood cycle.

IMO the “perfect” time for a treatment is ANY brood free time where ALL mites are on the bees. During summer; a swarm or a brood free split or even a colony who lost their queen and all brood has hatched. Before giving them a frame of eggs, a queen cell or a new queen…. treat them.

If Varroa have no place to hide, like closed cells or in the liquid food for the larva, you can reach almost all mites with a one day treatment. 
One evaporation or liquid treatment with the OA is enough to clean the colony.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

If I were ever to consider such treatments, then I guess a successful treatment would be even more problematic for me, since the majority of my colonies never completely cease rearing brood. Yesterday and today, once the temperature rose above 60F, I did some quick inspections and a little micromanagement to equalize stores. Nine out of ten hives had at least small areas of brood in all stages of development. I expect I would need to confine the queen to create periods of broodlessness.

I also did the only kind of mite count I've ever done, look carefully for phoretic mites on as many adult bees as was practical and also observe emerging brood for evidence of DWV or phoretic mites -- I saw none. Though there were adult drones in most colonies I did not find any drone brood in any colony at this time -- so I was unable to check sealed drone brood for _Varroa_ mites. The bees were flying and bringing in just a little pollen and they were quite busy at the water sources I provide them.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Thomas, as you can see there are at least a couple of opinions on when to treat. Each has its own merit. If you can treat during a broodless period then all of the mites will be exposed and you can expect to kill the maximum. As Axtmann pointed out there may be some of those broodless periods during the summer. Unfortunately that is often inconvenient with a production hive.
Treating after at the end of the season when all harvesting supers have been removed and before the production of winter brood may be the best alternative. Getting the mite population down before the start of winter brood will result in less parasitized, healthier winter bees. 

>Joseph Clemens wrote 'might it not be okay to wait until the bees are showing obvious symptoms of trouble before we take measures as drastic as introducing toxic substances or even powdered sugar'
The problem is that the classical symptom is a healthy vigorous appearing colony of bees produces a good sized winter cluster, only to collapse before the winter's end. The winter bees were heavily parasitized and not able to survive the winter. In the typical case a colony of bees will survive two or maybe even three seasons. Deformed wings are not a good indicator. Colonies with considerable DWV symptoms likely are infested but many seriously infested colonies don't have DWV. Looking for varroa on bees is a hit and miss propositon, at best.
You've been very fortunate. Many good beekeepers weren't. From the late 1980's through the early 1990s many commercial and hobbyist beekeepers gave up because of the huge losses. There are still beeks out there that accept 50% losses rather than treat. I think it'd be a painful experience for a new beekeeper.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

"The TIME that you install either Apistan or CheckMite to kill Varroa mites is CRITICAL if you expect to get a good treatment! I cannot OVER-EMPHASIZE that fact! WHY? The 0NLY place that a female varroa mite lays eggs to produce more varroa mites is in a honeybee LARVAL cell just a few hours before that cell is capped by the bees for that bee larva to become a pupae and emerge as a worker bee 12 days later.

THAT last sentence is the most important sentence in this letter. If the queen bee has dramatically reduced her laying, or STOPPED laying, there are very few bee larvae or NO bee larvae present, and hence the female Varroa mite has NO place to lay Varroa eggs!

In our Central Maryland area, most queen bee egg laying is either dramatically diminished or over before November 1st. Hence, if you install Apistan or CheckMite on October 1 st - October 15th, follow the written directions of leaving the strips in place for 6 weeks, but NEVER longer than 8 weeks (which will create RESISTANT mites), your colonies will enter December with essentially zero mite population, and generally you will not have to treat again until NEXT October.

This means that you MUST remove those strips after 6-8 weeks which will be sometime between November 15th and December 15th. There is ALWAYS some day during that time that the temperature is 50° or higher, and you can whiz home from work and snap those strips out of the hives.

So many people pay no attention to proper TIMING, and install mite strips at their convenience in September, and then wonder why they find Varroa mites on their bees next spring or next July, and treat them again. To be successful, you must learn to do things at the PROPER time, not at a time that is CONVENIENT TO YOU."

From; http://home.comcast.net/~pxbacher/PinkPages/2004_July_-_Where_Is_The_Honey.html#Apistan

This seems to be a drastic contrast to those who say to treat when you have no brood or those who say August. I quit treating. If I have a dead out I'll make a nuc or split from a survivor colony in the spring.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Wow!!!! WVbeekeeper, In my opinion, George's pink pages are giving awful advice. Varroa weaken bees in two ways. In the phoretic state they suck bee 'blood' in an obvious parasitizm. During the varroa/bee development the developing mites parasitize the developing bee pupa resulting in a compromised bee from the day it emerges. So, if as George suggests, we wait until the colony begins producing winter brood at the same time that the varroa population has reached its peak, then those emerging winter bees will be already severely weakened. The prospect of those bees surviving the challenges of a long winter are poor.
Am I misunderstanding something?


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

When I used to treat, I would do it just like he said to, or sometimes maybe a 
week or two earlier, and never had a colony succumb to varroasis. You are going
to get your largest mite kill in the first few days after starting your treatment. 
If you start between October 1 and September 15 you will kill a lot of the mites 
the first few days and the colony will continue to be safeguarded from from 
reinfestation for the six weeks during the treatment. If you start on September 
15 this will give you a couple of brood cycles to get those healthy winter bees 
before you stop treatment. As I said when I used to treat this is how I would do
it and had good success. I never treated in spring. Once I started monitoring 
mite levels I discovered that they were low enough to not have to treat. I have
not treated for four years and hopefully will never have to again. I've lost more
colonies to bears and from selling/giving them away than I have from varroa.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Its now been at least another ten years beyond the first 4-5, and I haven't told the bees yet, nor provided any treatments. Oh, well!
> 
> Send your hives for honey production or pollination, and figure a lively hood on it.
> Are you compairing your disease preasure to that of commercial operations?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

WVbeekeeper said:


> "The TIME that you install either Apistan or CheckMite to kill Varroa mites is CRITICAL if you expect to get a good treatment! Hence, if you install Apistan or CheckMite on October 1 st - October 15th





WVbeekeeper said:


> When I used to treat, I would do it just like he said to
> 
> If you start on September
> 15 this will give you a couple of brood cycles to get those healthy winter bees
> before you stop treatment.


WVbeekeeper, I think you and I are closer to agreement than I am with George.


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