# Cutting Top Bars



## Chuck Jachens (Feb 22, 2016)

I only use 1.5 inch wide bars and it seems to work for my conditions. I don't use shims. The coldest it gets is the low 20 F. Bee space tends to be a little large on brood comb.

I recommend you use a consistent bar size but if your just starting out you should experiment with different sizes and use shims. Once you figure out the right size or sizes for your conditions, then replace those wrong sized bars as you harvest. I would mark the width on each bar so you associate the width with the comb formation (is it centered).


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

my kit came with 2 size top bars 1 3/8 for the brood and 1 5/8 for the honey. I wished they were all one size. I get a lot of drone comb on the wider ones. I've worked a hive with shims and it's nothing but a nightmare in my opinion. I'd go with 1 3/8 or 1.5 if I were cutting my own.


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## Steve56Ace (Sep 5, 2014)

I run with option 3 but use 1/4" spacers in honey area.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

There is no easy answer to your question. Do you want to have a bucket filled with bars, and shims, or spacers? Do you want a bucket with all your tools and just one sized bar? Do you want to have to keep track of your shims, and your odd sized bars to fill in the ever changing space at the back of your hive? How are you cutting your own bars, if you are taking the time to cut out one piece bars, then you would be crazy to make two sizes? I make my bars and comb guides separate, then assemble, so that is not an issue.
Started with 1 3/8 bars for 3 hives, they worked, but had some problems for brood and honey comb for spacing. I then built more hives and went with 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 bars. Those two sizes seem to work better for me and my management style. With the 1 1/4 you get a few more brood bars in a given length of hive. In all honesty though, I now have three sizes of bars in my apiary. Which really plays havoc with my OCD! LOL The bees do not really care!


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Built top bar and bars. Made wider versions for "honey". Wrote the word honey on them and guess what? 
Bees can't read and don't follow the rules. 

I TOLD THEM I WANTED BROOD HERE...AND THE HONEY HERE. 
Dumb bees.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

aunt betty said:


> Built top bar and bars. Made wider versions for "honey". Wrote the word honey on them and guess what?
> Bees can't read and don't follow the rules.
> 
> I TOLD THEM I WANTED BROOD HERE...AND THE HONEY HERE.
> Dumb bees.


   :lpf:


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## richr58 (Jul 23, 2014)

cut them all smaller and add shims, I felt like two sizes were a major pain, bee can't read nor follow our directions, but when you see it is becoming a honey bar add some shims, it won't be long and the are stuck together anyway.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

Duncan151 said:


> ... Do you want to have a bucket filled with bars, and shims, or spacers? Do you want a bucket with all your tools and just one sized bar? ...


Well, from what I've read and understood given wood shrinking and expanding due to humidity and temperature, I'm still going to need *some* shims. But I think one sized bar would be easier. 



Duncan151 said:


> How are you cutting your own bars, if you are taking the time to cut out one piece bars, then you would be crazy to make two sizes? I make my bars and comb guides separate, then assemble, so that is not an issue.


Well my comb guides are either going to be kerfs (is that the right word?) with sheets of beeswax stuck in (not foundation - just wax), or string with melted wax on it. (I know the lazy way out).




Duncan151 said:


> Started with 1 3/8 bars for 3 hives, they worked, but had some problems for brood and honey comb for spacing. I then built more hives and went with 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 bars. Those two sizes seem to work better for me and my management style. With the 1 1/4 you get a few more brood bars in a given length of hive. In all honesty though, I now have three sizes of bars in my apiary. Which really plays havoc with my OCD! LOL The bees do not really care!


Sounds like one way (1 3/8) might have more problems but the varied size bars (1 1/4 and 1 1/2) might be harder to manage.


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## dixieswife (Apr 15, 2013)

We've used the same size bar with no problems. In our 2nd top bar, we just cut a 1x2 to the proper length and then added on a guide strip.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

dixieswife said:


> We've used the same size bar with no problems. In our 2nd top bar, we just cut a 1x2 to the proper length and then added on a guide strip.


Are you saying instead of 1 3/8" on center your top bars are 2" on center? Interesting!


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

crmauch said:


> Are you saying instead of 1 3/8" on center your top bars are 2" on center? Interesting!


If she uses the same wood I do, it's actually 3/4" x 1 1/2" finished. I tried using different size bars for honey and brood and it just became too much for the bees to keep track of. They called a meeting and decided to do it their way. I got the memo later and then had to figure out how to accommodate them. So for the last couple of years it's been all 1 1/2" and everybody is happy.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

crmauch said:


> Well, from what I've read and understood given wood shrinking and expanding due to humidity and temperature, I'm still going to need *some* shims. But I think one sized bar would be easier.
> 
> Well my comb guides are either going to be kerfs (is that the right word?) with sheets of beeswax stuck in (not foundation - just wax), or string with melted wax on it. (I know the lazy way out).
> 
> Sounds like one way (1 3/8) might have more problems but the varied size bars (1 1/4 and 1 1/2) might be harder to manage.


Yes, you will need shims for the back of the hive, regardless of what sized bars you go with.

Kerf is the right word, I do not like the waxed string due to it not always being followed well, I also do not like the kerf and wax idea. It works, but when you harvest a bar you have to leave wax for them to build off of again, or clean out that kerf and put more wax in it. I love a good strong comb guide!

Management of your bars will depend a lot on how you do things, and what you like to keep track of. Experience is the only way to find out. I really like the two sized bars, and it works well for me. I also do not doubt that others have the same experience with their sized bars. In the big picture, a TBH is a fixed volume, I feel that the smaller bars have a slight advantage overall, but if you only have 1 1/4, and no spacers, you will run into trouble when they start making honey comb. 

If you have two hives, try it both ways and see what you like better


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I like shims. I started first with several different sizes (I make my own), but once you get out of the broodnest all bets are off. I just put a hand full of shims on top of the bars beneath the cover for when I need them. Also I can use a thin shim to get the bees down between the bars if I need to.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

shannonswyatt said:


> I like shims. I started first with several different sizes (I make my own), but once you get out of the broodnest all bets are off. I just put a hand full of shims on top of the bars beneath the cover for when I need them. Also I can use a thin shim to get the bees down between the bars if I need to.


I like the shims for this reason - it's tricky to scootch the bars back together when you're buttoning up the hive, but with spacers it's easy to seat it on one side and slowly lower it into position and the bees will get out of the way where they will NOT when trying to scoot the bar horizontally.

I do one piece angled bars - start with a 2x2, trim off one side so it's 1.5 x 1.25, then cut the angle on both sides for a nice deep v. Two more cuts - a horizontal one to make the rest and another angled at the same as the hive side to remove that piece. I leave about 1/4 slop on either side now, after cutting tight ones and having them not fit easily with minor variations in hives. Use the .25 piece I sliced off as spacer bars.

The spacers are also handy when treating with oa dribble - just lift up the spacer, squirt, replace spacer. Of course this assumes you've got spacers in the brood area... 

I may cut new bars at 1", some spacers at .25 and some at .5 so I can still use spacers but keep the brood area at 1.25 on center...


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## Steve56Ace (Sep 5, 2014)

Well my comb guides are either going to be kerfs (is that the right word?) with sheets of beeswax stuck in (not foundation - just wax), or string with melted wax on it. (I know the lazy way out).

Yes kerf is correct and I put a 3/4" strip of foundation in my 1.25" wide scrap wood bars and secure them with 1/2" stainless steel staples. Like a charm.








Sounds like one way (1 3/8) might have more problems but the varied size bars (1 1/4 and 1 1/2) might be harder to manage.[/QUOTE]


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

When I ran top bars, all bars were 1 1/2 wide. I never had any problem. As stated by others, a kerf was needed at the back of the hive. It makes things so much easier not to have two different bars and shims. Part of the top bar experience is simplicity of the design.


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## MartinW (Feb 28, 2015)

I made my TB hives. For the topbars, I purchased off the shelf 1" by 1-1/2" by 8' from the local HD and cut to length. Very easy. I used melted wax on a string as a starter strip. Worked great through my first season. Good luck.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

When I used topbar hives, I heard of all that stuff , wider bars, shims , 2 sizes in 1 hive. Seemed logical so I tried it. Not worth the trouble! Some bees dont build 11/4 bars well ,a bit narrow. Same with wider, A bit too fat, & you get lots of burr comb. I'd always have the wrong size shim, or a cross combed block of bars. You'll save youself a lot of dikkin around, if you run 1 topbar, at a standard size. 1 3/8" spacing didn't come about by accident. It is the thing Langstroth discovered, the average combined thickness of comb and space. It's not arbitrary.


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## AugustC (Aug 7, 2013)

most of my bars a 38mm / 1.5 inches now. I did run with 36mm ~1 3/8" for a while and this worked fine in the brood nest but comb started to drift once you got beyond that. It does make a difference if the bees are already regressed to their natural comb size though. Bees coming from foundation will not get by on 1 3/8" across the whole hive. It takes a few generations of replacing the comb before they are on a natural cell size as big bees cannot make small comb. Personally I would stick what you have and just make a bunch of shims 2 or 3mm thick. You'll need some set up for the honey area anyway as those babies can get upto 50mm.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

We use 1 3/8 width bar and shims when we need them but don't plan on it... We use 32 bars and 6 shims in a hive. If you put an empty bar between 2 well drawn bars, they will build perfectly centered comb. More often than not, we don't need the shims if we keep up with them.


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## Jim7310 (Jun 29, 2014)

I have run several years with all bars at 1 3/8" with no problems or noticeable cross-combing. Honey bars have been fine and have not been too crowded.


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