# Kirkhoff Hive



## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

better insulation and increased ventilation are opposing "features". this makes no sense to me...short of the seller/inventor giving a better description, i'd say "buyer beware".

deknow


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

deknow said:


> better insulation and increased ventilation are opposing "features". this makes no sense to me.


Makes sense to me. Is it summer and winter at the same time? Good insulation during cold months and good ventilation during warm months. Even my house has insulated walls to keep the cold out and windows that open for good ventilation when it's hot.

"increased honey production" is a red flag though.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I'd like to see some hard data to support the claims
from the web site.

For instance.......... It claims to out produce two
Langs in honey production. By 90 pounds. If this
is true, then the extra cost is well worth it. But,
you gotta have some studies to support a claim
like that........

It is a neat looking set up, but lacking supporting
info for the claims.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Way over priced as well...


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## Natalie (Jan 14, 2009)

There have been a couple of threads about this in the past week or so.
The owner of that site from the link you posted is a member here and has discussed this hive in those threads.
There was also at least one thread regarding the original kirkhoff hive.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

There are far cheaper ways to achieve both goals. He also makes claims that about better production and better survivability that have no backup. At 10x the cost of a traditional hive, I would want proof. It would also be difficult to integrate with other equipment. What do you do if you need a super in a hurry?


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## newbeemike (Jan 20, 2009)

deknow said:


> better insulation and increased ventilation are opposing "features". this makes no sense to me...short of the seller/inventor giving a better description, i'd say "buyer beware".
> 
> deknow





Barry said:


> Makes sense to me. Is it summer and winter at the same time? Good insulation during cold months and good ventilation during warm months. Even my house has insulated walls to keep the cold out and windows that open for good ventilation when it's hot.
> 
> "increased honey production" is a red flag though.


The increased insulation is minimal. The increased warmth is mainly accomplished by the 2 colonies sharing a common wall, and thereby sharing "body heat". It's like being in bed. If you're alone you need more blankets. If you have a partner you're warmer.

Improved ventilation for both summer and winter does require some intervention on your part. The new screened bottom board includes closeable vents. These vents should be open in the summer to allow as much air flow through the vent chambers as possible (note the added ventilation flows through the vent chambers, not through the main hive area, which could be bad). In the winter they should be closed (or mostly closed, depending on how open you keep the bottom entrance) to keep air flow at a minimum while maintaining enough air flow to exhaust moisture.


Sundance said:


> I'd like to see some hard data to support the claims from the web site.
> 
> For instance.......... It claims to out produce two Langs in honey production. By 90 pounds. If this is true, then the extra cost is well worth it. But, you gotta have some studies to support a claim like that........
> 
> It is a neat looking set up, but lacking supporting info for the claims.


The H3 hive is an updated Kirkhof (added screened bottom board, etc.). I'm working on getting testimonials from 2 people I know who have extensive experience with Kirkhof hives. One has had 3 for years and loves them (when he found out I could build them he bought 11 more from me). The other is a semi-retired dealer who has sold hundreds of them. When I get the testimonials I'll post them here and on my site. I'm not about to make up false testimonials so I'm not going to try.

Have a look at "The H3 Advantage" page on my site. It explains the logic behind increased honey production. It just makes sense.

I'd like to see some hard data as well. Unfortunately, all I have right now is the word of experienced beeks. I have not been able to find anything on the web regarding these hives other than the original patents. I plan on producing some hard data, but that's going to take over a year to produce. Again, I'm not going to make something up just to sell a few hives. I refuse to stoop that low (probably why I'm broke all the time). Which is why I'm offering the introductory pricing instead of charging what they're actually worth.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

newbeemike said:


> I'd like to see some hard data as well. Unfortunately, all I have right now is the word of experienced beeks.


This may be a good season to do your own documented
study. Run your hive next to 2 Langs in multiple locations
with the same queen stock, etc.

The data from that would sell hives if there is indeed 33%
more honey produced from on H3 than 2 Langs.

Testimonials are interesting, but skewed. 

Perhaps shooting a half dozen to some members here
would get that study done. It would be worth it's 
weight in honey/gold if it supported your claims.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ross said:


> There are far cheaper ways to achieve both goals.


I find clients telling me this often in my line of work (construction/remodeling). Those are the ones I rarely end up doing work for. If cheap is your driving force, then something of high quality and standards with a price to reflect it isn't appreciated. I do appreciate the workmanship and understand the time involved in making such a item as this hive. There are many factors that go into any product, and price is but one. I don't understand all the negativism shown here. Afraid to let the market control the price? I guarantee you, it will. Without one negative comment said.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Barry said:


> Makes sense to me. Is it summer and winter at the same time? Good insulation during cold months and good ventilation during warm months. Even my house has insulated walls to keep the cold out and windows that open for good ventilation when it's hot.


no. in the north, you need good ventilation in the WINTER to carry out the warm moist air from bee respiration so it does not condense and drip on the bees.

from the website:


> Lower humidity in the winter means less chance of condensation on the ceiling of the hive and thereby better survival rates.


bees heat the CLUSTER not the HIVE. with enough ventilation to carry out the warm moist air in the winter (see above), insulation means nothing. if you open the front and back door of your house for real ventilation, insulation doesn't do you much good.

there is lots of data on this...take a look at randy oliver's site, where he shows that the bees at the outside of the cluster maintain 41degressF.
http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=61

or, from "the pink pages"
http://www.tnbeekeepers.org/pubs/Bee%20Behavior%20all.pdf


> Bees do NOT heat the space inside a hive body or the area surrounding the cluster! Temperature inside a broodless cluster remain between 68 and 86 degrees even when the temperature go as low as -25 (25 below zero). In late fall, the cluster is first formed in the front lower part of the hive and the upper part of the cluster is in contact with stored honey. AS honey is consumed as the winter progresses, the cluster moves upward and towards the rear of the hive, distancing itself from the front entrance. Honey is converted into heat by the metabolic processes of the bees inside the cluster and this heat is conserved by the insulating qualities of
> the CLUSTER as well as the enclosed comb!


would you insulate a shack if there were a skylight and the front door open? the cluster insulates itself.



> The increased insulation is minimal. The increased warmth is mainly accomplished by the 2 colonies sharing a common wall, and thereby sharing "body heat". It's like being in bed. If you're alone you need more blankets. If you have a partner you're warmer.


...then what is the point of the double wall? is this more effective than pushing 2 hives together on a pallet/stand with migratory covers?



> I'm not going to make something up just to sell a few hives.


then why on your website do you say:


> A H3 hive in the same area with the same management skills will produce about 270 pounds (1.5 times is typical, depending on your management skills).


and


> H3 hive have substantially less winter losses and therefore, less financial loss.


what are the above claims based upon?

if you have data, that would be great, but on the surface, the claims seem misplaced from my perspective.

deknow


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Barry said:


> I find clients telling me this often in my line of work (construction/remodeling). Those are the ones I rarely end up doing work for.



I hear you, I hit the same folks in the garage door line.
You can tell within a minute who you're dealing with.
Quality product and workmanship are worth a lot to
some, and nothing to others.

I don't question the quality and workmanship, but
the production claims do need backing.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Barry said:


> I don't understand all the negativism shown here. Afraid to let the market control the price? I guarantee you, it will. Without one negative comment said.


you really don't? the poster (seller) is making very significant claims based on what appears to be a flawed understanding of bee behavior and no data. part of what determines the "market" is the confidence of potential customers in the product/service. without a better explanation of why the hive works better, or some data (even his own anecdotal data from his own colonies), he might as well be selling magic beans...which by the way, i sell for $100/lb.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Sundance said:


> I don't question the quality and workmanship, but
> the production claims do need backing.


it would be nice to hear from a customer as to what they thought..but a look at the photos on his website do not show exceptionally tight joint, nor do they show woodenware with less knots than the "budget grade" hives from most suppliers.

deknow


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

deknow said:


> no. in the north, you need good ventilation in the WINTER to carry out the warm moist air from bee respiration so it does not condense and drip on the bees.


OK, next fall, take a hive, remove the frames (bees and all), build yourself a wire rack that the frames can hang from, and see how well they do with good open air ventilation. After all, they only heat the cluster.



> bees heat the CLUSTER not the HIVE. with enough ventilation to carry out the warm moist air in the winter (see above), insulation means nothing. if you open the front and back door of your house for real ventilation, insulation doesn't do you much good.


My world isn't black and white like this. In the winter, I need both insulation and ventilation in my house. Having built and worked on homes most my life, I understand the need for both during all seasons and weather conditions. If the above fact (heat cluster not the hive) was all there was to the equation, we would see bee clusters hanging from tree limbs overwintering.


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## xC0000005 (Nov 17, 2004)

deknow said:


> would you insulate a shack if there were a skylight and the front door open? the cluster insulates itself.
> 
> deknow


This is both true and false. The cluster is in fact what is heated (and not even the abdomen of the mantle bees, who really get the raw end of the deal). Insulation as in protection from factors that increase heat loss IS important (which is why the mantle bees get such a nasty job).

I'm as skeptical as you about the claims made, but it is possible that the results are real and the reasoning is an attempt to rationalize the results. In very cold areas I could imagine a case where thicker walls would matter. Yesterday for grins and giggle I ran a probe down the side walls of my largest hive (who were not amused). Temperature inside and outside the hive - the same. Temperature just over the mantle bees - about two degrees warmer (this doesn't match research data but I was sloppy with the probe). Temperatures inside the cluster - nice and toasty. I ran the probe clean into the comb and it was reading 92 degrees. Temperature on the underside of the inner cover six hours after closing the hive - same as outside.

What do I make of this? Honestly, I guess that here in soggy seattle the primary thing the hive is doing is keeping the rain and wind off the bees, not trapping heat. It was cheap to test and unfortunately I don't have enough large hives left to form any sort of real test data. Just interesting to measure.


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## Paraplegic Racehorse (Jan 25, 2007)

deknow said:


> you really don't? the poster (seller) is making very significant claims based on what appears to be a flawed understanding of bee behavior and no data. part of what determines the "market" is the confidence of potential customers in the product/service. without a better explanation of why the hive works better, or some data (even his own anecdotal data from his own colonies), he might as well be selling magic beans...which by the way, i sell for $100/lb.


While the seller may or may not have hard data at his fingertips, his claims of honey production are NOT out of line with commonly-seen figures from other two-colony hive setups.

As to pricing for the hive... Well, having seen some dimensions (not drawings), and judging from the amount of labor required to affix the internal walls to the external and maintain bee-space, etc, etc. I don't think it's out of line and may even be low. If you want to try it and are afraid to spend that money, ask him if he'll discount it for unassembled frames.

My only fear with this hive packages are the same as those with any other complete-hive package - are there enough supers? And, in this case, are there enough brood chambers? 18 medium frames is a pretty cramped brood area. I'd feel more comfortable with 24.

Also, if production merely matches that of two single-colony hives, 26 super frames are not enough. To meet production claims of this two-colony hive, two and possibly three more supers would be needed if the beekeeper does not want to constantly monitor and extract frequently. In fact, I would say five total supers, per hive, are about right assuming a cured-honey capacity of 50lbs per.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Two things, and I'll confess that I'm late to this thread.

1) The claims about "heat the inside of the hive" versus "heat only the cluster" are both right, and both wrong. Obviously, the bees do not intend to heat the entire interior of the hive. But they do, because heat doesn't "stay where you put it." And that warmth in the rest of the hive helps the bees.

Forty-one degrees at the edge of the cluster? A couple weeks ago, that would have been downright balmy for those bees around here! Outside temperatures were in the -35F range, so 40F would have meant that those bees warmed the expected air temperature by something like 75F degrees. Not bad!

Inadvertently or not, bees warm the interiors of their hives in the winter, and not just the clusters. And they cool the interiors in hot summer weather.

2) Any idea how the Kirkhoff hives would do in areas with small hive beetles? All those nooks and crannies look like ideal habitat for small hive beetles to me, but I could easily be missing something about how the hives fit together and/or seal up the openings into the airspaces between the inner and outer walls. Any experience there?

Just for the record, I think attempts to improve designs are worthy of time and effort, and I might be interested in setting up a small-scale experiment to test the worth of this hive design for honey production and overwinter success. Money and time are the obstacles to all such experimentation.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Kieck said:


> Any idea how the Kirkhoff hives would do in areas with small hive beetles?


Great question........ I haven't battled the vermin yet,
but it is a major consideration.



Kieck said:


> Just for the record, I think attempts to improve designs are worthy of time and effort, and I might be interested in setting up a small-scale experiment to test the worth of this hive design for honey production and overwinter success. Money and time are the obstacles to all such experimentation.


I agree, I'd love to test one out on a good ND flow, but
$$$ and time rule.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

*I just don't see the value here..*

One could do the same thing with a longhive, or even by placing 2 five frame nucs together with a queen excluder and common supers. 

I would bet, that this would be difficult to move, even with a common bb..one might better divide a standard 10 frame box in two and stack them up that way...


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## xC0000005 (Nov 17, 2004)

Kieck said:


> Forty-one degrees at the edge of the cluster? A couple weeks ago, that would have been downright balmy for those bees around here! Outside temperatures were in the -35F range, so 40F would have meant that those bees warmed the expected air temperature by something like 75F degrees. Not bad!


I would be that in -35 if you test the thorax temperature of bees that are NOT in a chill coma at the edge of the cluster, you will find that they are almost exactly this (for obvious reasons).


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Sorry, I'm lost. What's "this?" 75F? -35F?

I would wager that no surviving bees have a thoracic temperature of -35F. ;-)

75F? That might be about right. I had thought likely high 60s to low 70s, but that's really only based on papers that I had read about temperatures taken from the centers of winter clusters.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Thermology of Wintering Honey-bee Colonies in 4-Colony Packs*

Some interesting data pertaining to this discussion:

http://www.beesource.com/bee-l/biobeefiles/thermology/index.htm


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## newbeemike (Jan 20, 2009)

Sundance said:


> This may be a good season to do your own documented
> study. Run your hive next to 2 Langs in multiple locations
> with the same queen stock, etc.
> 
> ...


It's already in the planning stages. Interior temps, humidity levels, production levels, pest counts, the works! I plan on doing a full study over the next year.


Sundance said:


> Perhaps shooting a half dozen to some members here
> would get that study done. It would be worth it's
> weight in honey/gold if it supported your claims.


If any on here are within a half hour or so of Brewster, NY, let me know. Perhaps we can swing a deal.


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## newbeemike (Jan 20, 2009)

deknow said:


> bees heat the CLUSTER not the HIVE. with enough ventilation to carry out the warm moist air in the winter (see above), insulation means nothing. if you open the front and back door of your house for real ventilation, insulation doesn't do you much good.


Unless bees have come up with some kind of super insulation, it comes down to basic thermodynamics: If you're producing heat, you're losing heat. How much heat is lost depends directly upon the temperature difference between the heat source and the surrounding air. The less difference there is, the less heat is lost.


deknow said:


> ...then what is the point of the double wall? is this more effective than pushing 2 hives together on a pallet/stand with migratory covers?


You could. But you wouldn't get the benefit of the double exterior walls. Two flat surfaces placed closely together vertically tend to produce what is called a chimney effect - any temperature difference will produce more of a convection current than without it. This means you can have more air flow to remove moisture without having that air flow directly on the cluster, which would cool the cluster. Not good. I'm not making this up. You can try it for yourself. Take 3 dinner plates and a dish rack. Run all 3 under hot water, place 2 close together on the rack and the other separate. You'll find the surfaces between the 2 close ones dry faster than the other plate.



> I'm not going to make something up just to sell a few hives.





deknow said:


> then why on your website do you say:





> A H3 hive in the same area with the same management skills will produce about 270 pounds (1.5 times is typical, depending on your management skills).





> H3 hive have substantially less winter losses and therefore, less financial loss.





deknow said:


> what are the above claims based upon?
> 
> if you have data, that would be great, but on the surface, the claims seem misplaced from my perspective.


They are based on first hand experience of people I know who have operated the older Kirkhof hives for decades (remember a H3 is a modernized Kirkhof).


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## newbeemike (Jan 20, 2009)

Kieck said:


> 2) Any idea how the Kirkhoff hives would do in areas with small hive beetles? All those nooks and crannies look like ideal habitat for small hive beetles to me, but I could easily be missing something about how the hives fit together and/or seal up the openings into the airspaces between the inner and outer walls. Any experience there?


I can't give you an answer on this one. I think these beetles are more of a southern problem (no?) so I haven't heard much talk of them around here.



Kieck said:


> Just for the record, I think attempts to improve designs are worthy of time and effort, and I might be interested in setting up a small-scale experiment to test the worth of this hive design for honey production and overwinter success. Money and time are the obstacles to all such experimentation.


:applause::applause::applause:
As I answered in a previous post (after you posted this) I fully intend on doing an exhaustive study comparing H3s and Langs. It'll just take some time.


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## xC0000005 (Nov 17, 2004)

Kieck said:


> Sorry, I'm lost. What's "this?" 75F? -35F?
> 
> I would wager that no surviving bees have a thoracic temperature of -35F. ;-)
> 
> 75F? That might be about right. I had thought likely high 60s to low 70s, but that's really only based on papers that I had read about temperatures taken from the centers of winter clusters.


 
Sorry. 10.6 degrees C. The abdomen might be colder, but that is a magic point for the thorax temperature in honeybees. Colder than that and the bee is in serious trouble.


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## jeff123fish (Jul 3, 2007)

newbeemike said:


> If any on here are within a half hour or so of Brewster, NY, let me know. Perhaps we can swing a deal.


I drive to you if you want to do a case study it'll give me a chance to stop by and harass bleta12 lol.

jeff


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

*Trying to improve upon the beehive.*

I looked at it and for the most part there is a lot of workmanship in making the hive. I will agree with one comment that a few of the box joints don't look all that tight and flush. The SHB would love the air space between the inner and outer wall. But for the most part it is a nice looking hive and has lots of interesting small details. It is what I would consider a novelty hive though. I give an A for effort though.

As most are aware of I have the complete collection of beekeeping patents on my website and I have looked at everyone of them to do it. Everything regarding this hive has been covered in some form or another in those patents. Look at old beekeeping photos and look at all of the different variations of hives. Where are they now? There is a reason why you only see those hives in patents and old photos and not in working hives. The modern Langstroth hive is a model of simplicity in construction, cost and effectiveness. If you look at the original patent for the Langstroth hive the basic ideal of the modern hive is there. After 150 years of evolution I highly doubt you can improve on the hive by making it *significantly* more complicated. What modern addition to the langstroth has been made and stayed? The screened bottom board and that only came about because of mite control. 

http://www.honeymoonapiaries.com/web_beekeeping/sys/dat/00009300.pdf
http://www.honeymoonapiaries.com/web_beekeeping/sys/dat/RE001484.pdf


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

> It explains the logic behind increased honey production. It just makes sense.


A lot of things that "just make sense" are proven to be BS with hard data. You can insulate a hive by wrapping it for a few pennies. You can ventilate with a SBB and a propped top for almost nothing. None of that takes $450 (the difference between this hive and a traditional with 5 medium boxes) and should achieve exactly the same thing. If you want a common wall between hives, push them together....for free. Seldom does increased complexity yield better results.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

newbeemike said:


> How much heat is lost depends directly upon the temperature difference between the heat source and the surrounding air. The less difference there is, the less heat is lost.


am i missing something? you have to add heat loss due to ventilation to this equation. the more ventilation, the more heat is lost, and the less effective any kind of insulation is. have you come up with some way to retain the heat from the warm moist air, but expel the moisture? if so, you would get more support (at least from me) if you could explain it better.




> But you wouldn't get the benefit of the double exterior walls. Two flat surfaces placed closely together vertically tend to produce what is called a chimney effect - any temperature difference will produce more of a convection current than without it. This means you can have more air flow to remove moisture without having that air flow directly on the cluster, which would cool the cluster. Not good.


but the moisture is produced by bee respiration in the cluster. if the warm moist air rises from the cluster (which it does), how does it get between the double walls? where does the air come from to replace that which rises from the cluster? where does the air rising from the cluster go? where does the air flow between the 2 walls of the hive originate and go?



> I'm not making this up. You can try it for yourself. Take 3 dinner plates and a dish rack. Run all 3 under hot water, place 2 close together on the rack and the other separate. You'll find the surfaces between the 2 close ones dry faster than the other plate.


i really am trying to understand what you are saying here...but i don't get how this applies to your modified kirkoff hive. combs are parallel surfaces, and although they are heated by the bees, the cluster regulates the amount of hot air rising out of the cluster (by blocking it with their bodies...the cluster blocking the space between the frames).



> They are based on first hand experience of people I know who have operated the older Kirkhof hives for decades (remember a H3 is a modernized Kirkhof).


well, with all due respect, i know people who claim to have "first hand experiences" of being abducted by ufo's, and that they make a profit by playing lottery scratch tickets every week....and even those that don't think their crack habit is a "problem". there are people who think that flying airplanes into skyscrapers will bring them eternal bliss. you simply have to do better than "people i know" in order to sound the least bit credible...especially when the price differential is so great.

one would expect full furniture grade workmanship (with no knots and really tight joints) for such a price...if the pictures on your website don't demonstrate such quality, you are going to have a hard sell, no matter what you claim the advantages are.

deknow


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## newbeemike (Jan 20, 2009)

Well, at this point, my brother in law's reply would be: "Ya know, now that I think about it, you're absolutely right."

Next subject...


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I might be missing something, but i just don't understand what we are talking about. I know we are talking about Kirkhoff hives, and the added benefits of them. I also see pictures of the hives for sale, but out of the discussion and the pictures I just can't tell what EXACTLY a kirkhoff hive is ... let alone what a modified kirkhoff hive is.

Can anyone explain this, or point me in the direction of some plans for NORMAL kirkhoff hives? Or even better, some scholarly articles explaining kirkhoff hives?

Thanks guys, just trying to understand what this is.


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