# How cold can they stand it?



## twinbee (Jul 24, 2012)

I live in an area that is about to receive -5 degrees but with up to 30 below with wind chill for the first time with bees. 
Last year the temps got down to about zero with wind chill and they did fine, but my concern is that this new cold front is going to be too cold for them.
Has anyone out there experienced up to 30 below with wind chill without providing extra covering for their bees and had them survive?


----------



## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Wind chill does not have an effect on the bees because they are in the hive out of the wind. If they have enough food, and if they are on the food, along with adequate cluster size they will be okay. Ours have stood several days at -15 already this winter, and all the hives and nucs are alive.
Dave


----------



## twinbee (Jul 24, 2012)

Thanks SO much, Dave. That makes sense.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Although I use a screened inner cover to allow for adequate ventilation, I've taken the additional step of providing outer insulation for the top cover to reduce any potential condensation issues. The top insulation has a skirt around it to keep a layer of warmer air on the top portion of the hive, but it isn't secured against the hive body so that air flow isn't impeded and moisture can still vent out to the colder and drier air outside the hive.

I think that condensation can become a major issues especially where beekeepers aren't accustomed to these currently frigid temperatures.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How cold can they stand it? I'll as ka.

Get it? Alaska?


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I think that condensation is going to be the big issue as temperatures swing between seasonal and polar in many parts of the U.S. .


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

They can surely take the extreme cold "if" the cluster is large enough to generate the heat it needs to keep all the bees warm right right out to the edge of the cluster shell. They also need to stay in contact with food at all times, because that is what provides them the nutritional energy to generate the heat. They are an amazing creature to be able to withstand -40 degree actual temps out there in simple wood boxes.


----------



## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Dave Burrup said:


> Wind chill does not have an effect on the bees because they are in the hive out of the wind.


I wouldn't say "no effect" wind drives away heat via convection and is a greater tax. Wind will also drive some away moisture.


----------



## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

burns375 said:


> Orvis Heritage Field Coat
> 
> >I wouldn't say "no effect" wind drives away heat via convection and is a greater tax. Wind will also drive some away moisture<
> 
> ...


----------



## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

I hear it gets pretty cold in Russia.............

With the ultra low humidity that comes with the low temps, condensation might not be as bad as one might suspect. My hands are testimony to that.


----------



## I'llbeedan (Mar 31, 2013)

I once asked my mentor the same question. He use to live in a place called Gunnison Colorado. He told me that the winters there would reach as low a -50 and it was often the coldest place in the nation. He said his bees did no worse than they did in Virginia.


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I thought I read where the air temperature at the outermost edge of the cluster doesn't go below about 45 degrees regardless of outside temperatures, if it goes below that, the cluster will begin to perish because the insulating shell is what protects the heat generating bees in the center of the cluster, its like the domino effect. Can anyone verify that this is a correct understanding of it.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Therefor the wind has no effect on the bees inside the hive.<<

Wind is the reason we pack the hives and tuck them into wind breaks. 
The wind is winter and it's the wind that kills


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>30 below with wind chill without providing extra covering for their bees and had them survive?<<

Typically we cover our hives to seal up cracks and help the hive conserve heat. We will pack several together to save wrap and pool warmth between the group. 
But I'm talking four months of cold. 
Most important thing you can easily do is add insulation to the lid. It decreases condensation which can be very hard on a cold winter cluster


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

jmgi said:


> I thought I read where the air temperature at the outermost edge of the cluster doesn't go below about 45 degrees regardless of outside temperatures, if it goes below that, the cluster will begin to perish because the insulating shell is what protects the heat generating bees in the center of the cluster, its like the domino effect.


This study measures the temperature of the bee's bodies, rather than the air temperature, but does support the idea that if the bee's _thorax _temperature falls below 9-11 degrees C (about 50 degrees F), they can no longer shiver to generate heat and will fall off the cluster.

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/206/2/353.full.pdf

According to that study, the bees in the center of the cluster do most of the heat generation (by shivering their wing muscles) and the outer bees mostly serve as "insulation" for the cluster.

While I didn't see a mention this in the study, bees will take turns rotating positions so everyone gets a turn in the warmer middle. Also, bees can disconnect their rear wings from the muscles that power them, and shiver without actually moving those wings. A photo of the wing hooks that allow that disconnect from an earlier thread ....










Here is the earlier thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...nter-cluster-generating-heat&highlight=unhook


----------



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Dave Burrup said:


> burns375 said:
> 
> 
> > Temperature studies on hives have shown that the ambient air temperature near the cluster is only slightly warmer than the outside temperature. The air temperature near the hive sides is the same as the outside air.
> ...


----------



## pembroke (Apr 17, 2006)

So, I run with screened bottom board open all seasons, should I close up the bottom with sticky board for next few days until sub-temps are gone? Pembroke


----------



## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Harry what was the outside temperature when you took those pictures? It looks like a spring storm with temperatures just below freezing. With outside temperatures near freezing the cluster in the hive is looser allowing more heat to escape into the hive. With conditions like that I have measured inside temperatures as much as 30 degrees above the outside temperature. It is when the cluster is packed tight and outside temperatures are really low that the ambient temperature in the hive is near the outside temperature.
We wrap our hives, but I think the greatest gain from wrapping is in late winter when they are brooding up. With the looser clusters the wraps hold in the heat better and allow the bees more time to move around. Also the micro climate, from the black wrapping material, allows the more time for cleansing flights.
Dave


----------



## Mountain Man (Aug 26, 2013)

pembroke said:


> So, I run with screened bottom board open all seasons, should I close up the bottom with sticky board for next few days until sub-temps are gone? Pembroke


 I cant answer that question because im a new bk but I put mine in this morning. We are going to get cold tomorrow!


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Well, I'm just glad I put a wind block on my hives this winter. I know in my own house, when the blizzard winds were blowing the other night, it was almost impossible for the woodstove heat to keep up, the house was cold. The next night it was colder temperature but no winds, and the house was noticeably warmer. When the winter winds blow, that draft gets into everything, I'm sure the thin hive boxes too, I don't care what anyone says. I put styrofoam around 3 sides of my hives (not the south side, in order to absorb solar heat) and strapped them with bungee cords.

And as far as condensation, again, I'm glad I put a quilt box on top of both hives this winter. 

Last winter I did not winterize the hives and neither came through very well. I am now a big believer in wind blocks of some sort, and quilt boxes with shavings in them to absorb moisture. They have enough stress, if we can do relatively simple things to make life easier for them, I think we'll reap the benefits.


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

NewbeeInNH, I just came in from putting a piece of 2" foamboard on my south hive faces, I already had 2" foam on the other three sides and 4" on top of the outer cover. I figured with this brutal cold coming in tonight it can't hurt. I usually like to keep the southside uncovered for solar gain in the winter, but for the next few days its more important to conserve heat I think. Its supposed to warm up quite a bit towards the end of this week and into the next, hooray for that!


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Dave Burrup said:


> We wrap our hives, but I think the greatest gain from wrapping is in late winter when they are brooding up. With the looser clusters the wraps hold in the heat better and allow the bees more time to move around. Also the micro climate, from the black wrapping material, allows the more time for cleansing flights.
> Dave


Yes I agree completely. Most beekeepers get fooled by that ambient air temperature within the hive, as being the same as the outdoor temp. THat ambient temp may well be the same as the outdoor temp but the conservation of heat within that wrap allows that hive to hold a looser cluster. The bees are translating that increase of heat retention directly into their winter cluster size. There was a studdy bouncing around 10 years ago that showed that effect directly. Cnat find it, it was called something like "thermo dynamics of a wintering honey beehive" ,,? It compared three different hive setups. Perhaps our Beesource Librarian has it on the tips of fingers.. 

Nice looking hives Harry!


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The other thing, 
when hives are clustered tight in the cold, one of the best things to do is not disturb the nest


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

jmgi said:


> NewbeeInNH, I just came in from putting a piece of 2" foamboard on my south hive faces, I already had 2" foam on the other three sides and 4" on top of the outer cover. I figured with this brutal cold coming in tonight it can't hurt. I usually like to keep the southside uncovered for solar gain in the winter, but for the next few days its more important to conserve heat I think. Its supposed to warm up quite a bit towards the end of this week and into the next, hooray for that!


I think that's a great idea.

Fortunately for us, I don't think we are getting the brunt of this next arctic system like you are in Michigan. Unless I'm just in denial.

It's hard to believe, but one day we will be sweltering in the heat again.


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I thought you were in the deep freeze already, Mike Palmer was saying just the other day that temps were way below zero during the day, or are you generally milder than where he is?


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

jmgi, if you're talking to me, we were -10F night before last, but not negatives for daytime highs. Is Mike Palmer in Nebraska? I forget. I don't see any more negatives in our 10 day forecast, altho a couple nights in the single digits.

(maybe you were talking to Ian)


----------



## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Is Mike Palmer in Nebraska? I forget.


Mike's in St. Albans, Vermont.


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Yes I was talking about Mike Palmer in Vermont.


----------



## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Ian said:


> Yes I agree completely. Most beekeepers get fooled by that ambient air temperature within the hive, as being the same as the outdoor temp. THat ambient temp may well be the same as the outdoor temp but the conservation of heat within that wrap allows that hive to hold a looser cluster. The bees are translating that increase of heat retention directly into their winter cluster size. There was a studdy bouncing around 10 years ago that showed that effect directly. Cnat find it, it was called something like "thermo dynamics of a wintering honey beehive" ,,? It compared three different hive setups. Perhaps our Beesource Librarian has it on the tips of fingers..
> 
> Nice looking hives Harry!


http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/the-thermology-of-wintering-honey-bee-colonies/
This might be what you're talking about.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Aha! Figured it out, had Mike Palmer confused with Michael Bush. It looks like Mike Palmer is up near the Canadian border, while I am in southern NH, closer to the Mass. line, so that would be the difference in climate.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

TalonRedding said:


> http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/the-thermology-of-wintering-honey-bee-colonies/
> This might be what you're talking about.


There it is! I milled over that one for about a week 10 years or so ago.


----------



## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Ian said:


> There it is! I milled over that one for about a week 10 years or so ago.


I'm milling over it right now!


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I actually printed out the graghs and set them up in a side by side comparatively manner ( before I had kids, and this machine of a farm)
what I had determined from that, and glenning conclusions from the authour, caused a lot of disagreement from others. I guess from what I gathered from the graphs was differing from what others gathered.


----------



## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

So far, from what I understand from what I've read, is that there is really not a huge difference between insulated and uninsulated colonies. Granted, insulated colonies have a less dense cluster and begin brood increase a little earlier. However, uninsulated colonies maintain the same temperature with a denser cluster and will catch up brood rearing by the time nectar flow peaks. One of the biggest points I found in the literature, which differers from a few posts I've read, is that the bees are not concerned with the domicile outside the cluster (empty space around the cluster), and that the outside edge of the cluster remained around 44 F during cold weather. One advantage that insulated colonies MIGHT have is that with a loose cluster, they will be able to relocate food stores with less difficulty. Another big point is that solar radiation or the lack thereof had more of an effect on cluster movements than temperatures. The bottom line I take away from it is that bees are rugged critters and they will do just fine out in the open in cold climates with proper sun exposure and ventilation.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>they will do just fine out in the open in cold climates with proper sun exposure and ventilation.<<

Experience from around here suggests that shelter plays a huge role in winter survival , not a question about it


----------



## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

It is location specific, no doubt about it. Manitoba IS farther north than Madison, Wisconsin which is where this study took place. I would probably take a few precautions myself if I lived that far north. However, some folks get hyped up over the cold, but that's just part of the experience. It's no different than running cattle, horses, sheep, goats, crop farming......well, you get the picture I'm sure. There is no sense in letting the weather eat your nerves when the weather is the driving force behind agriculture/beekeeping. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best, that is all you can do. It comes with the territory of being a producer. Btw...stay warm up there in Manitoba. It's going to be a balmy 9 F here in Tennessee tomorrow!


----------



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

TalonRedding said:


> One of the biggest points I found in the literature, which differers from a few posts I've read, is that the bees are not concerned with the domicile outside the cluster


WOW!!
Now you have really peaked my interest!
How did you find out what the bees are concerned with from the data on the graphs? :scratch:


----------



## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

HarryVanderpool said:


> WOW!!
> Now you have really peaked my interest!
> How did you find out what the bees are concerned with from the data on the graphs? :scratch:


(17) Honey bees make no attempt to maintain the temperature in the domicile outside the winter cluster.

That is summarization #17 in the article above. It wasn't derived from the graphs, it was stated by the author. 
As to how I know what the bees are "concerned" with, that's easy! I am ONE with the bees! Lol...just kidding. Maybe "concerned" wasn't the best choice of wording there. More like bees use their energy to warm the cluster and not the space around them, which makes perfect sense.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

TalonRedding said:


> As to how I know what the bees are "concerned" with, that's easy! I am ONE with the bees!


So am I, and what they need to survive winters is the same as what I need:


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

You feed bees _orange juice_? :scratch:


Would that be _No Pulp _or _Lots of Pulp? _


----------



## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Good grief! I guess if Barry were a bee, he would be an Italian.  
I jest, of course. k:


----------



## linn (Nov 19, 2010)

It is a beautiful cake! What kind is it?


----------



## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

I was just going to say.....I would inhale that strawberry cake! Lol...if I were a bee, I'd be an Italian too!


----------



## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Ian & Talon,

I do believe that the "packed" version of "The Thermology of Wintering Honey Bee Colonies" is beneficial and I have been doing it or a variation of it for a number of years.








Open lower and upper entrances and SBB year round. Wood shaving filled QB & empty super containing feed can or fondant during winter on top. Two inch rigid foam on four sides plus outside top. All vertical sides are tar paper wrapped against wind. Snow/rain shield tarp tops with plus sand filled gallon paint can on top as dead weight. 

Oh yes, I've already had the snow storm you in the East are getting now.

Steve


----------



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I'm north of Albany, NY.

On Friday night my hives experienced outside *air temperatures *of -19F and over the past week windchills have been more than -30F from time to time.

My bees are fine. But I have to add that they are in insulated hives, have quilt boxes on top, with further insulation on the outside, snugged up together and all covered with blankets strapped down.

This is a picture of my set-up, minus one or two additional wind barriers I added at the last minute. 









Laugh all you like, but I am determined that I will do everything I can think of to get them through my first winter as a beekeeper. (Just in case you're worried, what's invisible in the photo are the ways I have the hives more than adequately vented. I was just in them today, and they are warm, toasty and dry as a bone.)

I do agree about the heat given off by the bees, though. When I'm feeling antsy about them I just put my bare fingers near, or in, their upper vent hole and I can immediately tell they are alive, and well, and throwing off heat inside the hive like nobody's business.

If you're facing really bad temps with no chance to prepare, then you could try wrapping them in blankets; stacking hay or straw bales around them, moving them indoors to a shed (risky because it may disturb the cluster when they haven't got enough time or warmth to safely reform it), or other odd-ball idea. if you do something, at least you'll feel better!

Chances are, though, that this brief burst of cold will not daunt them, because it will be so short-lived. I've still got at least three more months of very cold weather ahead. Your bees will probably be making honey before mine have started their build-up.

Good luck to you, and them,
.
Enj.


----------



## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Wow, it looks like you did them up right! I like the paint can idea. I can certainly see how the packing can be beneficial, especially where you all are at. Either way, it is better to be safe than sorry. Here where I live, I just leave a super of honey on a deep, crack the top, seal the box seems with duct tape, and wish them well until spring. Of course, I monitor them now and again during winter, but not much more than that.


----------



## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Enjambres,

Wow! That is incredible! :applause:


----------



## Upper Chi Bees (Jan 4, 2014)

TalonRedding said:


> (17) Honey bees make no attempt to maintain the temperature in the domicile outside the winter cluster.
> 
> Wow,Interesting paper. I did a similar study in 1969 on a single hive 1 1/2 story hive at the Univ of Maine. Wish I knew of that paper's existance then. I found that while I was shivering outside, the bees were confortable with the center of the cluster at 90F. I did notice that the box itself was close to ambient. The purpose of my experient was to determine the "R" value of the insulation shell of the colony. It wasn't the most accurate experiment, but the "R" value was similar to wood, or 1.2 - 1.5.


----------



## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

That's pretty cool! It's amazing how well bees can insulate themselves like that. Like you said, while we shiver,they're staying warm.....most of the time anyway as long as they have food. :thumbsup:


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How do you suppose they generate heat when in cluster? They shiver too. By flexing flight muscles w/out moving their wings.

Back in 1985, while at OSU/ATI, Wooster,OH, I helped Dr. Jim Tew collect some data on this topic. Hives set up in an apple orchard revealed via temp sensors placed in the hives that temps between the main body of bees, not in tight cluster at that time, and the wall of the hive were the same as the temp outside the hive. In the middle of the mass of bees it was around 98 degrees and above the bees it was warmer than beside or below.

Bees warm themselves, not the cavity they live in. There was a time when travelers seeking lodging would sleep 3,4,5 to a bed, all strangers. No central heating under such situations. Also there was a time when all of one children would sleep in the same bed. Same reason, no heat.

Times change. Bees get by. Leave them bee.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Don't forget "three dog night".

So if they don't warm the cavity pretty much at all, then it's okay to have extra super space on a winter hive? I ended up with more supers than I see most people have on their wintered hives. Now I'm thinking that could be a plus in spring, to give them space early so they're less likely to swarm (one is a Russian hive).


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Dave Burrup said:


> Burns moving air removes heat from a surface warmer than the ambient temperature. Temperature studies on hives have shown that the ambient air temperature near the cluster is only slightly warmer than the outside temperature. The air temperature near the hive sides is the same as the outside air. Therefor the wind has no effect on the bees inside the hive.


What about the top? The cluster generates heat that is lost to the hive structure. Any wind on the hive structure will take away heat faster which will affect the amount of heat the bees have to generate to keep a constant temperature in the cluster. Yes they can survive it but it is harder on the bees. They have to work harder.


----------



## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

The temperature above the cluster is above ambient. This helps the bees to move up. I have 2-3 layers of Reflectex between the inner and outer cover. Snow sits on top of our hives and does not melt from internal heat loss.
Dave


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> Bees warm themselves, not the cavity they live in.


There was a great video showing the dynamics of a wintering cluster. I can't locate it!!! Showed the thermodynamics of the cluster as the outer bees moved inward and the inward bees moved to the outside of the cluster, keeping the core warmest. Hope someone can find it if it's still online.


----------



## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

This was honestly the best video I could find. It's more than likely not the one you're talking about, but the cluster info is about mid ways through the video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YPh70tTZVuc


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

It had a lot of infrared footage.


----------



## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

This might be it. If not, it's some really neat footage and I even learned a lot! I also attached an additional website with some good info and good pics.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iYr158rwLBI

http://www.beebehavior.com/live_camera_winter.php


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Bingo, I thought. Not it, but footage like this with commentary showing the cluster ball moving.


----------

