# Splitting vs just adding a new box



## Tilopa (Feb 16, 2015)

I've got a number of hives (with 2 boxes) that are pretty full of bees and brood. I fear swarming is coming soon. Is it best to split the hive by taking some full frames off and putting them into a new box and then adding empty frames to both boxes, or should I add a new box with 10 new frames on top of the existing hive? 

I've been watching youtube and have seen many vids showing how to do the split method, and vids showing how to add a box to the top of your hive, just wondering what the benefits are of one over the other?


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

My only experiment with adding a third box and then splitting it off failed. Queen was generated, lost it, cause unknown. Re-queened, failed, cause unknown. Just my experience, and I probably screwed it up, somehow.


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## roykessler (Feb 18, 2015)

The way I do it is I have 3 med 10 frames as a hive so I would add a box. Maybe others do it different but my hives are 3 med 10 frames.


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## Will O'Brien (Feb 22, 2006)

Swarming is triggered by overcrowding in the hive, so I add additional boxes a little early and I pull some frames with brood as well as honey and pollen frames up into the new box and place empty frames in the space that was created in the old box as well as the new box. If they keep expanding I keep doing it. If I see swarm cells then I split the hive, with the old queen going to the new split and a swarm cell staying in the old hive box.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Will O'Brien said:


> ...swarm cell staying in the old hive box.


I usually leave the queen where she is, and take the swarm cells...but now that I think about it, I suppose that runs the risk of the old queen flying off anyway...

If I see any swarm cells, usually there are quite a few, with multiples on each frame. I'd like to take a number of them and put them into their own nucs singly (right now I just take the whole frames), but I have so far resisted trying to cut them out because I perceive them to be too fragile- I messed with one once and the queen popped out right into my hand. Plus, if I did manage to get it out without destroying it, I fear crushing it if I were to try to stick it somewhere else. I wonder if I am too concerned about that. If I could get the hang of that, I could have a lot more queens than I have been able to raise so far.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Will O'Brien said:


> Swarming is triggered by overcrowding in the hive, so I add additional boxes a little early and I pull some frames with brood as well as honey and pollen frames up into the new box and place empty frames in the space that was created in the old box as well as the new box. If they keep expanding I keep doing it. If I see swarm cells then I split the hive, with the old queen going to the new split and a swarm cell staying in the old hive box.


Will O'Brien gave you the information you need. The only thing I can add is to find out when the earliest swarms have been seen so you can keep an eye out for queen cells.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

After seeing your bee pen pics it is better to make a split from all of your crowded hives to repopulate all the 
empty hives to restore everything back again. In time they will make a new queen to head the hive again. 
What is the season there right now?
If you don't want to make the split then continue to expand the hive to a full size one to collect the honey. 
But without knowing the age of the queens, a 2nd year hive will most likely make the swarm cells when they have grown strong enough. This is how they multiply. 
So bee prepare to have some extra equipments to catch some swarms just in case. 
And also put some swarm traps on the nearby trees or at the pen nearby so the swarm can get in. This way you don't lost that many swarms. 
If there are no keepers nearby then let them swarm into the woods to repopulate the local bee colony is nice too. Then you can go bee/honey hunting the next season in the woods. 
Or to go bee catching in the woods if you want. The local drones from these escaped colonies will mate with the virgin queens from your hives too. So from time to time just let them swarm when you have too many hives to tend to. There are so much fun for beekeeping where you are at.


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## Tilopa (Feb 16, 2015)

Thanks. I did the split. Starting a new thread because I have additional questions.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, splitting is fine.
Though you might like to find the queen rearing calendar to
time her so you will know when is the time for her to lay after her
mating flight. You can also find the best queen from all your hives to 
donate a frame of eggs/larvae to the split hives so that they will make the
best queens possible. Going thru all your hives, can you find 'an exceptional'
queen for her eggs? Doing so will ensure you have the most productive bees there.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Adding boxes MAY help head off swarming. It often does not succeed at preventing it.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm


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## Tilopa (Feb 16, 2015)

*Splitting vs just adding a new box - I messed up the split!*

I did not think about it until later but when I split the hive I only put 3 frames of brood, and just what bees were on the frame, and a full frame of honey. This is not even enough for a nuc. Also when I put the honey frame in it was so bloated that it brushed against the frames next to is and crack the honey open. So when I came back this morning there was serious robbing going on. 

I figured I needed to do something or the new colony would not make it, so I opened up the original hive and took 3 frames of brood and the bees on the frame (looking to make sure the queen was not on them), and put these frames in the new hive, and added empty hives to the original. But again my smoker went out too soon and putting the original hive back together, trying not to kill all the bees hanging out on the top, I slid the heavy box across but in the process I broke the protruding comb with honey off and it spilled on the ground and down the sides of the box. Surely this is going to incite robbing. So I've taken a really strong hive and made it weaker and put it in a situation for robbing. Is there anything I need/can do at this point?

Is there a trick to getting your smoker to burn longer but slower? it seems like if I add a bunch of wood at the beginng it will burn hot with thick smoke but won't last much longer.

When I smoke them they all run in and starting drinking honey from open cells, does the queen do this too or does she continue to go about her business of laying eggs? If she does eat also it makes it harder to spot her.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Splitting vs just adding a new box - I messed up the split!*

>Is there a trick to getting your smoker to burn longer but slower? it seems like if I add a bunch of wood at the beginng it will burn hot with thick smoke but won't last much longer.

If I have a little work to do I just use burlap. If I have a lot of work to do I will start a fire with some twigs to get some coals and then add some burlap. Anytime it's getting too hot, stop pumping the bellows...

>When I smoke them they all run in and starting drinking honey from open cells

No they don't... a few already are but no more start doing it that I can see and I've been looking for this behavior for several decades...

> does the queen do this too

She does not feed herself.

> or does she continue to go about her business of laying eggs?

No. If you smoke it heavily she runs for her life and you'll often find her as far from the smoke as she can get.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

*Re: Splitting vs just adding a new box - I messed up the split!*



Tilopa said:


> ...I slid the heavy box across but in the process I broke the protruding comb with honey off and it spilled on the ground and down the sides of the box.


If frames have protruding comb, I clean it off before putting the frame back in the box. Sometimes I discard it (if it's empty), otherwise, you may want to bring a container with you and keep it (if there is no brood in it) for your own use.



> Is there a trick to getting your smoker to burn longer but slower? it seems like if I add a bunch of wood at the beginng it will burn hot with thick smoke but won't last much longer.


1) What are you using for fuel? Can you use something that will burn slower?

2) Practice, trial and error- try to not get it going so hot, keep an eye on it and give it a few puffs of air every now and then to keep it going, instead of getting a roaring fire that burns out too soon. You want a gentle smolder, not a hot burn.

3) Bring extra fuel with you, so that when it runs low you can add more.



> When I smoke them they all run in and starting drinking honey from open cells, does the queen do this too or does she continue to go about her business of laying eggs? If she does eat also it makes it harder to spot her.


Try smoking them a little less, only just as much as you need to in order to keep them calm, unless you really, really need them to move.

Sometimes, if there is a very high population, they may not do what you want no matter how much smoke you use...like when trying to put the boxes back together and they just won't get out of the way.


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## chickenia (Apr 13, 2012)

*Re: Splitting vs just adding a new box - I messed up the split!*

I use burlap, and ALSO, cedar kennel wood bedding chips from Wal-Mart, works GREAT!!! Just start a good little fire in the bottom first, and then add a handful of wood shavings and pump the bellows.....lots easier than much I've tried, and easy to add to it if needed.


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