# @ what temp does heat hurt nutrition of honey?



## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Crushing & Straining honey seems to be a painfully slow. Seems like you could get more honey. I thought I would heat the comb & attempt to separate wax & honey. Is that possible without hurting the good stuff in the honey?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

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Depends.

Heating honey to 160 degrees for minutes will start the caramelization process, the burning of sugars. 150 degrees, not so much. 140 degrees even less. And so on. Many people point to 110 degrees as the point which honey starts to loose some of its' properties. Some even say 100 degrees.

Personally, I have no problem heating honey to 150 degrees to clear the crystals. and then 110 to 140 for bottling. I get no complaints from my customers. Though the RAW Honey has been selling pretty well too.

What good stuff are you concerned about hurting?


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

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One of the states recently put not over 115F to be defined as raw honey, in their definition of honey.
I try not to take mine over 110F.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

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I'd say on a hot day honey probably gets to 110 F in a super but the wax is pretty soft and could give way at that temp.

But as far as damage, any heat seems to hurt the flavor and anything over 120 F I'm sure is breaking down enzymes.


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## MethowKraig (Aug 21, 2011)

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I am wondering what the maximum temperature the bees will tolerate in the super stack (as opposed to the brood nest). Seems like we should respect their judgement. Does anyone know?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

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We had temps in supers in hives placed in full sun reaching 119f this August... the brood chambers from those same hives were reaching 118f... these are air temps, not the temps of the solids or liquids of course... 

I have been working on some studies on the effects of full sun placement, since it has been recommended so heavily by so many... the stress levels are tremendous on a colony that is fighting to keep hive temps below 120f... shb and mites may not care for temps that high, but the bees sure don't either, and only time will tell just what vulnerabilities stresses like that will create... and like MB pointed out, what enzymes could be lost that could contribute to poorer health...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

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MethowKraig said:


> Seems like we should respect their judgement.


Huh? In what way and on what? What temperature to heat honey to make it useable for human consumption? We don't do that w/ milk or steak or vegetables. Unless, I guess, one is into a Raw Foods Diet.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

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rrussell6870 said:


> what enzymes could be lost that could contribute to poorer health...


"poorer health" of bees, right? The Thread is about heating honey before HUMAN consumption, isn't it? On a meaningful level, the nutritional qualities of honey are of little value(?) to human nutrition. We do not NEED or DEPEND on Honey to meet our nutritional needs, do we? So, what meaningful qualities are lost by heating honey, besides taste and color.

Doesn't the meer act of uncapping loose some of the properties of honey associated w/ flavor? Or is it the taste of the wax which makes comb honey taste different from extracted honey from the exact same floral source, botanically and grographically?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

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Many of the health benefits of honey have to do with enzymes. Enzymes that break down sugars such as diatase and invertase, enzymes that slow bacteria such as inhibine, enzymes that give off H2O2 (which kills bacteria) such as Glucose Oxidase etc. Enzymes are very heat sensitive. That's one of the reasons a high fever makes your brain not work right. It breaks down enzymes that are used in your brain at temperatures as low as 110 F.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

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sqkcrk said:


> On a meaningful level, the nutritional qualities of honey are of little value(?) to human nutrition.


That may or may not be true. The jury is still out on pollen content in honey and alergies


sqkcrk said:


> We do not NEED or DEPEND on Honey to meet our nutritional needs, do we?


 . Not sure about what ya mean by that statement since we don't need meat, milk eggs or cheese to meet our nutritional needs ether.


sqkcrk said:


> So, what meaningful qualities are lost by heating honey, besides taste and color.


 See above.



sqkcrk said:


> Doesn't the meer act of uncapping loose some of the properties of honey associated w/ flavor?


 No


sqkcrk said:


> Or is it the taste of the wax which makes comb honey taste different from extracted honey from the exact same floral source, botanically and grographically?


 Wax has no taste. I never noticed a different taste between comb and RAW honey. Must be the heat thing.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

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Michael Bush said:


> Many of the health benefits of honey have to do with enzymes. Enzymes that break down sugars such as diatase and invertase, enzymes that slow bacteria such as inhibine, enzymes that give off H2O2 (which kills bacteria) such as Glucose Oxidase etc. Enzymes are very heat sensitive. That's one of the reasons a high fever makes your brain not work right. It breaks down enzymes that are used in your brain at temperatures as low as 110 F.


So why isn't this ever presented on Labels on Honey Jars? "Contains such and such enzymes which promote etc., etc."?


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

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Give the regulators time


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

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The honey we heat to separate the cappings gets used for cooking. It is going to get heated then anyway.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

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I bottle very little honey for retail sales, maybe a barrel per year. The rest goes out as wholesale in barrels, never heated. Whatever honey I bottle gets heated to about 100-105 just to go through the filters easily. At those minimum temps the honey maintains color and taste, why heat any warmer? Florida's honey law does not allow pasteurization so high temps are not legal anyway. If you're going to sell a natural product I believe it ought to be as natural as you can make it. When folks taste the real stuff they're amazed at the difference between natural honey and the junk at the supermarkets. Heating to any temp above 135 degrees changes the color and I would guess the content of enzymes also. My first job in the bees was with a commercial beek who bottled about half of his own honey. Way back then, late 50's, the local health dept required heating to 135-140 degrees; the nice light colored orange blossum honey turned medium to dark amber after heating and lost the real orange blossum taste. Heat it if you like, but you're not going to be giving people the same stuff that came out of the hive and that's what my customers want.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

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I was indeed referring to bee health... I was more so discussing my own findings of temps within the supers and chambers of full sun hives in the south... although the honey itself may never reach the temps that the air does, it probably does reach the 110 f point... thus destroying several beneficial enzymes that the bees would need for good health... 

Looks like someone stayed awake during microbiology class MB. Lol. I can agree that from a humans standpoint, honey is not an essential dietary need, but the enzymes that are within the honey already do help even our bodies to break down the sugars starting within our mouths... without these enzymes, stomach aches, cramping, diarrhea, head aches, and tooth decay are more likely to occur... its like the difference between eating a fresh apple and eating a baked apple... the sugars are there either way but the sugars in the fresh apple are accompanied by enzymes that help the body to break them down and sort them into proper uses, while the sugars in the baked apple are only partially digested using some as instant energy burn, some stored in fat cells, and the rest passed as waste...

While the dietary qualities are important for bee health, I do not think that its that important for human consumption... I love honey, but I wouldn't consider it a part of my diet... the majority of honey is heated one way or another be it from the processing, cooking, adding to hot liquids when used as a sweetener, etc... sugar is a part of my diet though, so in situations where people are substituting all sweeteners for honey (god love em), I could see how they would be concerned about the enzymes remaining... at least for direct consumption...

My focuss is of course the guttural health of the bees which equals to fewer winter losses, stronger build ups, and less diseases...


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

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Speaking of guttural health..... LOL A few weeks ago, I was quite sick with what I thought was food poisoning. I remembered reading that raw honey helps with that and to take a spoonful every so often. I did that and it helped tremendously. I seemed to recover faster also.

The benefits of raw honey are many and extend beyond just nutrition. It is supposed to be the sweetener of choice for diabetics also. Honey is utilized by the liver and enables the liver to pull glucose out of the blood stream to be used as needed. I read where artificial sweeteners trick the body, that the body recognizes it as sugar even though it is not, thus releasing insulin which causes the body to store it as fat. 

Two books worth reading about honey:
The Hibernation Diet by Mike and Stuart McInnes 
The Honey Revolution by Ron Fessenden, MD, MPH and Mike McInnes, MRPS


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

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I can relate to the recent stomach bug/food poisoning combination... long story, short... Vietnamese owned Chinese buffet + Japanese sushi + tiny ship boat village in the deep cajun bayous = THROW ME OUT OF THE BOAT AND LET THE SHARKS DO WHAT THE DO.... IF THEY EVEN WILL! There was certainly plenty of enzymes there, just not any of the good kind...

If I would have had it, I would have downed a bottle of something stout and let my enzymes start all over from there... lol.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

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Honey has little or no nutritional value. Many people live their entire lives without consuming any honey whatsoever. It simply isnt needed to sustain human life. 

Enzymes? You body already produces all the enzymes that are needed to sustain life. Despite current health and nutritional fads, consuming supplemental enzymes (from honey for instance) doesnt do much, or at least it hasnt been proven to be beneficial. 

It is the degradation of the _aesthetics qualities_ of honey (taste, color, consistancy) are affected by most by heating.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

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After reading back over my post, I guess I should make one sentence more clear... the bold type was added for clarity...

honey is not an essential dietary need, but the enzymes that are within the honey already do help even our bodies to break down the sugars *within the honey* starting within our mouths... without these enzymes, stomach aches, cramping, diarrhea, head aches, and tooth decay are more likely to occur...


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

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rrussell6870 said:


> After reading back over my post, I guess I should make one sentence more clear... the bold type was added for clarity...
> 
> honey is not an essential dietary need, but the enzymes that are within the honey already do help even our bodies to break down the sugars *within the honey* starting within our mouths... without these enzymes, stomach aches, cramping, diarrhea, head aches, and tooth decay are more likely to occur...


Yes that is true. Enzymes are absolutely essential for human health. You would die without them. However, the enzymes added by ingesting a teaspoon or two of raw honey is miniscule compared to the amount of enzymes that are already present in your mouth and gut. 

Now I suppose in extremely rare instances a person could develop an enzyme defficiency and become ill. But ff that was the case, one would be far better off by consultaing a doctor than consuming honey in order to correct the situation.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

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I disagree with the statement that "honey has little or no nutritional value". (Doesn't cardboard have no nutritional value?) And, some people will translate that to mean that honey is not worth eating for health! It is excellent for health and I can't stress that enough. Honey has benefits that extend past nutrition and help the body in many ways. It is not a complete food, but does enhance a person's nutrition. It has value/benefit to health due to the nutrition it does contain. It also is medicinal. Honey is antifungal, antibacterial and antiviral.

Honey contains (a long list) of acids, amino acids, minerals, enzymes, trace elements, vitamins and lipids. Some are in trace amounts. There are over 180 substances known to be present in honey. 

To mention just a few benefits from the books I mentioned.....

Honey fuels the liver and the brain, reduces the risk of cardiovascular disease and hypertension. Eating honey lowers cholesterol, triglycerides and increases HDL-cholesterol. It has benefits to the immune system, enhances dental health, helps with depression, reduces risk of certain cancers. It is very good for helping healing internal stomach/intestine ulcers due to its antibacterial nature. It aids the body in repair during sleep recovery. It lowers the risk of insulin resistance. Honey lowers blood sugar levels. Honey helps heal wounds, prevent infection and is good for treating sunburn and other burns. Used topically on a wound, it helps nourish the cells and release small amounts of hydrogen peroxide which aids in preventing or dealing with infection of the wound.

If honey has no or little nutrition, how can it do all the good that it does?? There is just too much to mention here and I suggest people read up on it. Honey, it does a body good!


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

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Nabber86 said:


> Honey has little or no nutritional value. Many people live their entire lives without consuming any honey whatsoever. It simply isnt needed to sustain human life.


I don’t think anyone said it was needed to sustain human life. The statement was Many of the health benefits of honey have to do with enzymes. It was never stated as needed, just beneficial.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

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There is a Nutritional Label on bottled water, but other than providing necassary hydration is water nutritious? No enzymes in water, are there? Vitamins or minerals, unless mineral water?

There's alot I don't know.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

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mac said:


> I don’t think anyone said it was needed to sustain human life. The statement was Many of the health benefits of honey have to do with enzymes. It was never stated as needed, just beneficial.


Nutritional qualities were mentioned in the OP, I believe. I was merely questioning whether nutritional quality reduction in honey would be all that bad, if heated.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

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Not saying that honey isn't great. We all love it. The term "nutritious" in this case is used to describe a vital dietary need. Certain honey is indeed the only source where all amino acids can be found at once... even the bible refers to honey several times as being cleansing and medicinal... it anti-microbial properties are utilized by the medical industry every day for preservation of severed organs... it truly is an extraordinary substance... all that was being said was that it is not a necessity for the health of the human body... although it may have benefits when used in moderation, a healthy diet provides all of the requirements for the human body... it is certainly better for your health than beet sugar, as I would far prefer to take in the traces of amino acids from the honey over the traces toxins found in most all granulated supers, and the proven cancer forming agents in all artificial sweeteners... 

The question is, how much of the good stuff makes it to your body? If the nations honey producers are pressed to move all of their hives into full sun, extracting in summer may well have already heated your honey above the temps that begin to break down these good enzymes...


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

*INSTRUCTIONS: Shove tongue firmly into side of cheek before proceeding.*

INSTRUCTIONS: Shove tongue firmly into side of cheek before proceeding.

SLOW DOWN, If heat higher than 100° F damages honey, what will eating honey while you are sick and have a temperature of... oh say 103° or 104° F do to the honey you eat? Besides, normal average adult human internal body temperature is around 100° and then once you manage to gag down a spoonful of soon to be poisonous honey your internal tubing unceremoniously dumps it into a churning, heaving stomach that is full of hydrochloric acid along with the previous PM’s pepperoni pizza. 

I don’t see how I survived low those many winters of concerted outdoor activities I once engaged in. All that time I said it was the nightly honey, hot water, lemon juice, and whiskey toddy that helped me rest, soothed my scratchy burning throat, and calmed the cough I often developed after spending 12 hours in the wind, rain, sleet, and snow. And now your telling me not to add hot water to my honey when I’m mixing my nightly toddy??? Someone quick, please tell me who is responsible for all those wasted years of ill health I suffered so I can sue! 

On a more serious note (barely). It is my understanding that honeybees can tolerate temps a little north of 115° F, and that this is the temperature that bees generate when they ball an intruder. Do the bees flush the honey they were carrying around inside them when they formed the ball and start over or what? :scratch:

Now for a real serious note. I think the idea when bottling honey is for us to make use of that human trait that is the rarest, common sense.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

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Bee Bliss said:


> ... Honey is antifungal, antibacterial and antiviral. Honey contains... amino acids, minerals, enzymes, trace elements, vitamins and lipids... Honey fuels the liver and the brain, reduces the risk of cardiovascular disease and hypertension. Eating honey lowers cholesterol, triglycerides and increases HDL-cholesterol... Honey lowers blood sugar... helps heal wounds, prevent infection and is good for treating sunburn... Honey, it does a body good!


Now that is almost as good as the claims of early health food tycoons who claimed that their cereal or faux coffee made blood red. 
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Breakfast_cereal_industry

I like to eat honey for the best reason of all, it tastes good.:thumbsup: 

:shhhh: But don't tell anyone or there wont be enough left for you and me.

Really, all this "Its gotta be good for you or you don't dare, can't, or are not suposed to eat it" is only our Purtian fore fathers' (and mothers') DNA showing. Why don't we stop wanting to be little Cotton Mathers or Dantys and just enjoy life. 

There are plenty of witches left for us to burn.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

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mac said:


> ... what ya mean by that statement[,] since we don't need meat, milk eggs or cheese to meet our nutritional needs ether...


Yes, and also remember we do not need tofu, soy, celery, lemon grass, raw vegetables, or any number of the other subjects in the plant kingdom for good health. 

However, last week a mother and father in Georgia had their life in prison without parole sentence upheld. They received a life sentence after attempting to raise their newborn son on soy milk and apple juice. The child weighed around 7 lbs when it was born and only about 3 lbs two months later when it died. It literally starved to death.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

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You can easily LIVE on nothing but gruel but that doesn't mean you'll be especially healthy doing so. Thousands of years of written history (not to mention oral history) have shown that humans have observed the health benefits of honey for at least that long and probably longer. It is a universal observation with no recorded dissenting opinion until this thread...


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

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I read some natural remedy stuff, herbs, vitamins, etc.etc. I can't recall or find only one
that says 'cooking honey denatures it's valuable enzymes.' (Honey,Garlic, & Vinegar by Dr. Patrick Quillin) I don't have the best memory for some things, I usually remember what I want to (I'm told). I have not found what temp kills or denatures to a null & void affect. 

I would have thought that someone would have posted some study or referenced some medical journal. 

Quillin says later in chapter about vinegar which applies to most homeopathic interests; 

" However, since no drug company is going to spend the time & money to research a product, like vinegar, which cannot be patented, there is precious little interest among scientists to study the effects of vinegar in humans." 

I simply want to make my end product as beneficial as possible. Nice conversation.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

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I believe the OP may have been looking for guidelines for handling his honey. I believe that it is not as simple as just a threshold temperature, but rather it is time at temperature dependent.
One minute at 150 F. may be less damaging than one week at 110 F. Has any one seen a study that tested time at temperature?

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

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If you want to bottle for sale the best honey possible, use no heat at all when extracting or bottling. I believe you mentioned crush and strain.

I do bottle some RAW honey, never heated, never strained. But, 95% of all the honey I sell is heated and strained, mostly so it won't crystalize on the shelf before it gets purchased. I have to eat that honey myself, businesswise. So heating makes the most sense to me.

Besides, I sit in front of the tanks long enuf as it is. I can't imagine having to sit there twice as long. I would go to only selling buckets.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

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I don't expect to crush & strain any more than I have to. I got a couple pounds of honey from some comb & I was looking for a time efficient way to miser every drop...Aint no time efficient way best az I can seez. I just gots a new 33 frame extractor, I aint ascared of it neever! My honey is in the basement with a heater & dehumidifier now, waiting for my refractometer & bottling (heated) tank to arrive to put this bus in the garage for a while.
Wouldn't you like to see some real helpful research to this topic? I cannot speak authorotatively about it or cite any studies, journals, etc. I think that knowing your product would be useful in enthusiastic marketing. people are getting more & more health conscious. Dean & his crew are doin a pretty good job @ getting noticed for their passion for better products. I'd like to know simply ♫ b/c b/c b/c ♫. It really is an easy sell when you inform people about Chinese imports, benefits of local honey. Why do we not have truth in labeling laws to help consumers see that you iz the better honeyman?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

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>I would have thought that someone would have posted some study or referenced some medical journal.

You would think that thousands of years of unanimous human experience would carry enough weight to warrant a look... but as you quoted:

>" However, since no drug company is going to spend the time & money to research a product, like vinegar, which cannot be patented, there is precious little interest among scientists to study the effects of vinegar in humans." 

There is no interest in researching something you can't sell. This is the problem with any simple solution to any problem.


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## MethowKraig (Aug 21, 2011)

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This thread has gone badly into the ditch. 

The original post asked at what temperature honey was damaged by heat. Setting aside questions of enzymes, etc, just ask about "taste." There is certainly agreement that over 135 damages changes color and taste dramatically. Also universal agreement that below 110 is harmless. 

I asked what the bees tolerate and the answer came back 120 in the hive, which probably means 110 for the stored honey. 

Seems like the consensus in 110. By consensus, I mean bees and beekeepers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

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MethowKraig said:


> There is certainly agreement that over 135 damages changes color and taste dramatically.


"dramatically"? No, I would not agree w/ that. "Somewhat"? That I would agree w/. "Significantly"? Maybe, maybe not.

My customers tell me I provide them the best honey they have ever tasted, so I am going to keep doing what I do. I don't expect anyone else to follow my example. It works for me.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

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I posted the question because I was concerned that I couldn't honestly look someone in the eye & say that I sell a product that is as good as I have control over. I think my health is better with an eye on natural over presentable, & I was hoping to have facts to refer to. 
In the same vein as the quote from Dr. Patrick Quillin, my friend made a statement that I don't think is too far off. He said that since man started toying w/food, the motivation in large part was greed, not to improve the quality of food.
The conversation may have veered a little, i don't see where it went into the ditch. 
I asked the question thinking that there would be a clear answer, as of yet, seems like there isn't. Here experience colored w/opinion is the norm. The topic & the replies have been fielded by (IMO) _some _of the more knowledgeable beeks, & I was surprised @ the amount of replies & I would like to see others weigh in until the conversation is tapped out w/ some satisfaction by way of facts. 
Honey in my OPINION is not just candy, I believe that If God designed it, it was perfect. It's when man motivated by greed, not the betterment of human conditions is why you have poor health conditions caused by food coloring, preservatives, hormones, steroids, uneeded pasturazation etc. Not to mention a question that begs to be asked; If China has complete provinces w/out a single honeybee, & a NOTORIOUS history/record of human/resource exploitation with absolutely no regard for consequences, HOW HOW HOW can they have marketshare here in this country when the product harvested here is SOOOO appreciably BETTER? 
Geesh, I hope someone comes along w/a chain.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

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Scrapfe said:


> Yes, and also remember we do not need tofu, soy, celery, lemon grass, raw vegetables, or any number of the other subjects in the plant kingdom for good health.


I agree with that. I was responding to the statement “It simply isn’t needed to sustain human life.” But that was not the point I was trying to make, the point was just because something isn’t necessary for good health doesn’t mean it isn’t BENIFICIAL. Honey and all the foods you mentioned aren’t necessary but they are BENIFICIAL to good health. 



Scrapfe said:


> However, last week a mother and father in Georgia had their life in prison without parole sentence upheld. They received a life sentence after attempting to raise their newborn son on soy milk and apple juice. The child weighed around 7 lbs when it was born and only about 3 lbs two months later when it died. It literally starved to death.


Are we on our way to feed the Pigeons????


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

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lakebilly said:


> I posted the question because I was concerned that I couldn't honestly look someone in the eye & say that I sell a product that is as good as I have control over.
> 
> I believe that If God designed it, it was perfect. It's when man motivated by greed, not the betterment of human conditions is why you have poor health conditions ...


To the first above statement. This is a fine thing to be concerned w/. It shows your integrity. Now that you have heard the opinions of others you can decide how to handle your own honey and be assured that you are doing the right thing by not heating it. You are doing the right thing. Not right for me. But that is not what this Thread is about.

To the second quoted statement. Since you brought GOD and the perfection of the food created by your Creator, if I come to your house for dinner some time, should I expect an all raw food meal? No cheese or olives for appitizers? No wine or soft drinks? My point is that we beekeepers focus on HONEY and some times take things to extremes which we wouldn't apply to other food products. Makes for conversation, I guess.

No chain required. Sometimes Threads take the fork in the road when they come to it. It's still a road.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

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The best way to preserve the taste and "quality" (however you want to define quality) of honey is probably to store it in dark amber bottles, away from light, in a cool dry place. Of course it would look as pretty on the shelf that way.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

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Used to be sold in cans the size of large cans of tomatoes. No. 10 cans? Some were like paint cans w/ the same lid.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

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Mark, I'm not sure where we differ. If it is heating honey to expidite the packaging & has no detrimental affect I am all for it. I believe you can. That is why I posted that my honey is in a warm room & I am waiting (w/bated breath) for my new bottler that will warm for easy packaging. I'm just looking for the parameters. 

Dude, I am Italian(mostly) My family(both sides; Italian/HillBillees) are some of the greatest cooks around. we likes & uzes heat a ho bunch! God created heat for reasons. I think that a meal of raw fruits & veggies only now & again has health benefits. 

My point was more of a slap to the persons ignoring health risks to make more money. Food storage & preservation is obviously necessary. Making food last with poison as the preservative aint doin anybody any favors except, doctors, & drug companies. Incidently, I met a guy that told me that he had a bad case of acid reflux. He tried medicines to no avail. He heard that raw unpasturized vinegar might help. he took a tablespoon twice a day & not only did his acid reflux disappear, he dropped his bad chlesterol 100pts. His dr. was astounded & wanted to know why & received his info eagerly. 
As a sinical observer of misused taxpayer funding to drug companies, etc etc. I would like to see homeopathic remedies studied. 

There is no interest in researching something you can't sell. This is the problem with any simple solution to any problem.(MB post #34)
AMEN!
Big money(& their lobbyists) aint gonna let ANYBODY take a bite outta their marketshare. Therein lies the answer to why China owns this country. They bought it through the election contributions. 
How about the canyon I put that topic in?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

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We have no argument. I'm sure I would eat better at your house than you would at mine. Being as I don't cook much.

'sall good.


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