# How to Harvest/Process "Wild" Honey



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

get asumeing you some how did this with out poisons the the honey isn't contaminated.
get 2 food grade 5 gal buckets and a 5 gal paint strainer https://www.walmart.com/ip/Trimaco-...30463&wl11=online&wl12=21170210&wl13=&veh=sem

put all the comb in one bucket and mash it up with a stick for 10+minuints
put the strainer in the outer bucket and pull it down form the out side so it only hangs a few inches in to the bucket, wrap tape around it to hold in place, set on the bucket with comb and tape the 2 together, then flip so the emty bucket is on the bottom, come back in a day to get your strained honey


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## sr4440 (Nov 30, 2016)

you do realize that in Texas it is illegal for you to sell that honey. read SB1766 


(7) "Small honey production operation" means a 
beekeeper that: 
(A) produces less than 2,500 pounds of honey each 
year; 
(B) sells or distributes the honey or honeycomb 
that the beekeeper produces either personally or with the help of 
the beekeeper's immediate family members; 
(C) only sells or distributes honey or honeycomb: 
(i) that is produced from a hive that is: 
(a) located in the state; and 
(b) * owned and managed by the 
beekeeper;*

http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/84R/billtext/html/SB01766S.htm

you can feed it to your bees, but you can't sell it


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

sr....
Thats why I live in Mo., cause that is a stupid rule that has no measure of common sense. My guess is the hive started being managed the minute the back of the tv started being taken off.
Cheers
gww
Ps Feeding it back to the bees might be the one thing I would not do as foul brood hurts bees not people.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I would say that you "owned and managed" that hive. Neighbor doesn't want it back does he? There is your ownership. He gave it to you. You killed the bees, right? There is your management. Label it up and stick an $18/quart price tag on it.


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## sr4440 (Nov 30, 2016)

psm1212 said:


> I would say that you "owned and managed" that hive. Neighbor doesn't want it back does he? There is your ownership. He gave it to you. You killed the bees, right? There is your management. Label it up and stick an $18/quart price tag on it.


You guys have a point, I been doing all my cutouts wrong! LOL

Joe


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## Tighty_Whitey (Jan 18, 2017)

psm1212 said:


> I would say that you "owned and managed" that hive. Neighbor doesn't want it back does he? There is your ownership. He gave it to you. You killed the bees, right? There is your management. Label it up and stick an $18/quart price tag on it.


I plan to give the honey to neighbors. The neighbor is a heavy drinker with a reputation for being an inconsiderate "a-word". I pulled the boards of his fence without asking him in order to get the TV out of his back yard. The bees were attacking me when I mowed on the other side of his fence, and my wife is allergic to bees. Today I'll put his boards back.

I never intended to get any honey, so this caught me unprepared. I watched a Youtube video where the guy used cheese cloth instead of paying for a paint sieve. I also have some window screen and I might make my own sieve. I wonder how fine it needs to be in order to filter out the dead bug parts.

Now that I've had time to think about everything I realize it's not that complex. Still wonder if warming the honey might not make it flow easier/faster, maybe through a finer mesh.

Also what about the super dark honeycombs. Are they pretty much all the same? Why are some darker and some lighter?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Tighty...
So far, if I leave my honey sit for a bit, all the heavy stuff falls to the bottom and all the wax floats to the top. What is left in the middle is very pure looking honey. Make sure to seal it good while it sits for about a week so it does not draw moister from the air. I think what msl told you would work good. I have used panty hose and it did very well. I think a kitchen collander would work fine. I hear cotton cheese cloth does leave particals in honey that will cause it to crystalize quicker.

After it sits for a couple days to a week, I use a peice of suran wrap layed on top of the honey and when I lift it, it pulls most of the foam film that is on top leaving pure honey.

I am pretty sure if all you did was catch the big stuff that the honey would self filter if left sealed and sitting. This is of course after breaking up the cells in the comb and at least cathing most of the comb above where the honey drains. I don't think you will be hurt much no matter what you do as long as you don't let it sit out and get moister from the air and as long as what you took was mostly already capped and dry enough.

I have only harvested a few times in a few differrent ways but the honey always seems to self filter with time no matter what mistakes I might make.
Good luck
gww


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## mike17l (Jun 22, 2012)

How did you kill the bees???





Tighty_Whitey said:


> A colony of africanized bees took up residence in a junked TV set in the backyard of a neighbor, and I waited months for the weather to cool and also borrowed another neighbors bee suit in order to destroy the hive.
> 
> Which I did today. Drug the TV set out of the neighbor's yard and into the drainage ditch behind his house, with the intention of burning the TV and the bees. But it was SO HEAVY. I wondered if there was any honey in it.
> 
> ...





sr4440 said:


> you do realize that in Texas it is illegal for you to sell that honey. read SB1766
> 
> 
> (7) "Small honey production operation" means a
> ...


This is correct, it is illegal to sell cutout honey in the state of Texas. 




gww said:


> sr....
> Thats why I live in Mo., cause that is a stupid rule that has no measure of common sense. My guess is the hive started being managed the minute the back of the tv started being taken off.
> Cheers
> gww
> Ps Feeding it back to the bees might be the one thing I would not do as foul brood hurts bees not people.


Its not a stupid rule, cutouts are a very common practice here, so is taking matters into your own hands. I do many cutouts a year, I assume half to three quarters of them have been sprayed by some type of pesticide by the owner. No one wants to eat pesticides, they really don't want to pay to eat it. Selling cutout honey is a horrible practice, no matter where you are. Additionally, cutouts are in locations and in materials that they person performing the cutout may not have any knowledge of. I have removed bees with dead mice stuck in the combs, crawling with roaches, covered with mouse crap, covered with goat crap, surrounded by lead paint, (from the inside) behind asbestos siding, the list goes on. It is beyond irresponsible to sell this honey or even give it away.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

mike 171
It is still stupid. You have to use common sense when you do anything. It is legal to sell your honey from your hive but you indidcate that a hive never gets a mouse? It would still be up to the guy with the hive to have the common sense not to sell that legal honey. What you say makes no sense. Honey made by bees is the same in your hive as it is in a differrent place that the bees made it and it will be good ethics wether in a hive or some other hole on what the guy harvesting it decides to do with it and he will have either good or bad ethics in how he handles it. It is a stupid ideal of a law though it is not stupid to think about what you have and what the conditions were where you got it from. You act like nobody can have those same conditions or others in hives they manage and so it is ok cause it is legal. In the end, honey is honey and contamination is contamination and the person doing it is in the best place to judge.
Stupid law no matter where you live.
Cheers
gww


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

TW said “Also what about the super dark honeycombs. Are they pretty much all the same? Why are some darker and some lighter?”

Darker combs are older combs with multiple brood usage thst leaves old cocoons in there plus the bees dirty little feet  Lighter comb is newer comb, less usage and dirty feet!


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## mike17l (Jun 22, 2012)

gww said:


> mike 171
> It is still stupid. You have to use common sense when you do anything. It is legal to sell your honey from you hive but you indidcate that a hive never gets a mouse? It would still be up to the guy with the hive to have the common sense not to sell that legal honey. What you say makes no sense. Honey made by bees is the same in your hive as it is in a differrent place that the bees made it and it will be good ethics wether in a hive or some other hole on what the guy harvesting it decides to do with it and he will have either good or bad ethics in how he handles it. It is a stupid ideal of a law though it is not stupid to think about what you have and what the conditions were where you got it from. You act like nobody can have those same conditions or others in hives they manage and so it is ok cause it is legal. In the end, honey is honey and contamination is contamination and the person doing it is in the best place to judge.
> Stupid law no matter where you live.
> Cheers
> gww


I don't get mice in my managed hives. I also don't get goat crap, asbestos, lead paint, dirt, piles of wax moth frass, any of the permethrins, the list goes on. I don't want to sell honey that has been contaminated, I sure as heck don't want to buy honey that has been contaminated. Someone removing a hive has no way of knowing if the hive has been poisoned in any way. To sell "wild" honey, is at best, irresponsible.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Mike


> I don't get mice in my managed hives. I also don't get goat crap, asbestos, lead paint, dirt, piles of wax moth frass, any of the permethrins, the list goes on. I don't want to sell honey that has been contaminated, I sure as heck don't want to buy honey that has been contaminated. Someone removing a hive has no way of knowing if the hive has been poisoned in any way. To sell "wild" honey, is at best, irresponsible.


I guess the law was made for you then and I am sure all bee keepers have the same conditions as you and never have a problim. That is proby why I see several threads a year on here talking about mice in thier hives. You may think everybody but you is irresponcible because they have those problims that you don't have but the point is those problims don't have a law behind them but still do happen with legal hives and the guy has to make the right decision to do the right thing if that happens in his hive. Nobody wants to eat contaminated honey but just because honey is not made in your perfect hive does not mean it is contaminated. It is irresponcible to throw away good honey that is not contaminated in some way and irresponcible to sell or give away contaminated honey even if technically it is legal. 

If a person is greedy enough to not make the correct decision on what to do with the honey he has harvested based on the conditions of the honey he is harvesting then the law does not matter wether in a hive or a wall. The law means nothing in that case. All honey from every cut out is not bad no matter how you want to try and frame it. It is not all bad to eat or sale. Some honey is bad to eat or to sale and this could be in some wall or some hive.

It is a stupid law that does not fix doing good or bad. I hear you on things you should worry about, I would worry about them to with out some stupid law. If however you say that all cut out honey is worse then all legal hive honey, I would have to dissagree.
Cheers
gww


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## mike17l (Jun 22, 2012)

gww said:


> Mike
> 
> 
> I guess the law was made for you then and I am sure all bee keepers have the same conditions as you and never have a problim. That is proby why I see several threads a year on here talking about mice in thier hives. You may think everybody but you is irresponcible because they have those problims that you don't have but the point is those problims don't have a law behind them but still do happen with legal hives and the guy has to make the right decision to do the right thing if that happens in his hive. Nobody wants to eat contaminated honey but just because honey is not made in your perfect hive does not mean it is contaminated. It is irresponcible to throw away good honey that is not contaminated in some way and irresponcible to sell or give away contaminated honey even if technically it is legal.
> ...


A greater percentage of bees in walls, or tires, or barrels, or soffits, or any number of places wild bees get is contaminated than managed hives. Managed hives are generally not poisoned on purpose, do not have mice in their honey supers, are not painted with lead paint, are not surrounded by asbestos, the list goes on. Managed colonies do not have these issues. Most people I have meet doing removals do not know when honey in a colony is compromised, almost none can tell if the hive has bee sprayed with chemicals of any kind. It is not worth the risk. Texas Department of State Health Services (DSHS) recognizes this and does not allow it. There are applicable fines and fees for those found breaking the law in Texas.


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## Tighty_Whitey (Jan 18, 2017)

mike17l said:


> How did you kill the bees???


They just died. Mostly I think from the cold. San Antonio got snow last night for the first time in over a decade. As soon as I opened that TV set up they started dying. Many of them died from trying to sting me through the suit also. Today there are still a few dozen buzzing around. Still mad as hell. One stung me from 10 feet away from the junked TV set. I'll wait until dark and spray the whole thing down with a garden hose. That should disrupt them enough to either go away or die. It looks like the only reason why they are still alive is that they are bunching up together.

It started to rain and so I put one of the bowls of honeycomb inside the barbeque just to get it out of the rain. Then put two bowls in the garage. The bees in in the garage are all dead, but the bees in the BBQ survived. Stupid bees. My wife is allergic. We have two 10 year old shots of "ephedrine" (whatever it's called), so they're expired.

They cost $500 each now. Thanks, Obama.

If she gets stung it's a trip to the ER, so she's walking around today all terrified and looking at me with accusing eyes. But, she has a hella sweet tooth and loves honey, so it's this weird mix. Her father (she tells me for the first time this morning) raised bees for about 5 years, harvested them once and never again. Let the honey crystallize in the hive and they moved away at some point. He's dead now so I can't ask about it, but I assume he didn't like the extraction process or didn't want to spend the money on the tools, etc... Not sure. But she remembers eating honeycomb as a child, wax and all. So we're in a weird state in my house right now. Christmas snow, trip down memory lane with the bees and the honeycomb, and the fear of getting stung and maybe dying.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Mike
Like I said, I am glad that I live in MO. I hope they never start a bunch of rules that are a good ideal in somebodys mind. Luckily here they seem to be going the other way by freeing up rules rather then make more rules and more waste from those rules.

I do wonder if anyone has ever been cited in texas? I understand your arguement just like I understand the arguement for registration and/or inspectors in some states and the push for record keeping of treatments and a whole bunch of other things that might "help" the bee industery. I am just glad I live in Mo and would also say that all of these supposed issues don't seem to be causeing problims where those types of regulations are not around. I have not heard of one law suite or health problim here or other places that don't have this or lots of other rules. I think the push for classes and a certificate before you can keep bees is a good Ideal in some peoples minds but am glad we are not there yet. There are lots of things that could serve some purpose in some way but the question of need is a differrent story. There do not seem to be any more or maby even as many problims where all this regulation is not around.
Cheers
gww


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

gww said:


> mike 171
> It is still stupid. You have to use common sense when you do anything.


If you are making the call for you or your family fine, use your common sense.
But, if you are making the call that all is right for other people using your common sense it is not fine.

Frankly, there are not very many people who's common sense I trust with most matters. No offense, I wouldn't trust yours in this matter.
The food product safety rules set standards that are developed over a period of time and to address needs of inferior and possibly dangerous food stuffs, not by one guy using his common sense when he finds something that may have value.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Boy, you really are on a roll today....



> They cost $500 each now. Thanks, Obama.


The extortionate increase in Epi-Pens had nothing whatever to do with the former President, nor the Affordable Care Act.

The manufacturer realized they could jack up the price for this essential, life-saving, drug-treatment because they saw an opportunity to price gouge. So they did.

See: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/25/...before-the-expected-arrival-of-a-generic.html

There was an outcry, and they somewhat lowered the price, but not back to where it was. There are some start-ups which are offering slightly different delivery devices that are much cheaper. The drug itself is dirt cheap - you are paying for the convenience of it. You could also get a script so you could keep a small vial of epinephrine in your refrigerator and the necessary syringes and needles and that would much, much less expensive. I did that for decades before the invention of Epi-pens.

But if your wife is truly allergic, in the sense of having anaphylactic reactions, the Epi-pen just buys you time to get the ER. It is not a complete treatment. Fortunately the ACA covers ER visits as part of the Essential Benefits, without exclusions for pre-existing conditions such as known allergies.

Nancy


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I have seen bees in rancid trash cans, on dog turds and drinking from open raw sewage wicking up from an overflowing septic tank. Matter of fact, I think they prefer rancid, smelly water. Couldn't tell if those bees were managed or feral. I have done cut outs of exterior combs that have had pristine capped honey and I have seen "managed" hive boxes with a family of mice crapping all over. Personally, I would rather eat honey out of the eave of a house than I would out of a managed box that was treated with coumaphos or fluvalinate -- or even amitraz.

I did a cut out of a hive that was 20 feet up in an oak tree before a tornado blew the tree down. Under Texas law, apparently that honey cannot be marketed. I am much more worried about what the beekeeper was putting in his box than I am about what the bees were taking to that tree.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Clydroad


> The food product safety rules set standards that are developed over a period of time and to address needs of inferior and possibly dangerous food stuffs, not by one guy using his common sense when he finds something that may have value.


The whole point is that common sense has to be what rules when keeping hives or doing cut outs.
It is not one persons common sense either way on this food product safty that as you say is "developed over a period of time".

It is what are the rules that gov make. It is not me that decides that. If "over time" Mo did not make the same rule as texas made, then who gets to decide which of those decisions are common sense?
You have to use common sense on what you take out of your hives for sale. If you know you fed fifty gal of sugar water and treated with talkic and the hive dies, you use common sense to know you can not harvest and sale that honey regaurdless of the law or shouldn't anyway.

Legal or illegal does not take those decisions away.

It would not be my common sense that laws from one state might be differrent from laws of a differrent state. Does the whole state of MO have no common sense or is it the state of texas? This is a bee law and has nothing to do with and does not relieve the responcibility to still use common sense regaurdless of the laws. It does not relieve my responcibility that even technically legal, I would still have decisions to make.

I don't take the position that texans are so evil and dumb that they need a law to do it for them. I don't say Mo are so smart that they don't need such a law to be safe. I just say that Mo does not seem to be having the dire results that this law is made to stop and so I question that it is a good thing. I have no qualms with the honey I have. It is made with nothing added to the hive (including mice, knock on wood). 

The thing about laws is that sometimes they don't make sense and can be changed. Take our honey selling laws. For up to $50,000 we can sale honey. Unlike many states, we don't have to do it from only our front door of our house. We can sale on the internet. Before this change, it was easier for somebody to buy honey from some other state then it was to buy from a missouri beekeeper. Now it is not against the law to send some with my daughter to work for her to sale. Other states are differrent. Now I can send my honey to your state maby eisier then you can get people to come to you house and buy it. That is the point of my, "it is a stupid law". There do not seem to be big problims where it is not a law. If you buy my honey or not, I stand by my position that cut out honey is not all bad. In my grandpas day who was a log cutter and not a bee keeper, cut out honey is the only honey he got.

I bet one thing. Give full discloser on two bottles of honey for sale with a picture of a big hive in an oak tree cut open with one bottle and a picture of your hive with the other bottle and see which one sales first.

Cheers
gww
ps Nice post nancy


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> If you are making the call for you or your family fine, use your common sense.
> But, if you are making the call that all is right for other people using your common sense it is not fine.
> 
> Frankly, there are not very many people who's common sense I trust with most matters. No offense, I wouldn't trust yours in this matter.
> The food product safety rules set standards that are developed over a period of time and to address needs of inferior and possibly dangerous food stuffs, not by one guy using his common sense when he finds something that may have value.


Bingo. I might add that if the integrity of honey producers is compromised by just a few people with GWW's attitude, it could take down the whole industry.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

gww said:


> Clydroad
> 
> The whole point is that common sense has to be what rules when keeping hives or doing cut outs.


the point is what? that a products integrity should rest on the common sense of the one offering it? as I said, use common sense to decide if you and yours should eat something and have at it, but to imply that the same so called common sense should also be the basis for others to trust in a product and consume it is absurd.
one mans common sense is another mans nonsense. 

the food safety laws are designed to protect people from the poor common sense of others for whatever reason. not created by an individual but by a team of people with some expertise in food contamination, sanitary conditions, accurate labeling and public safety. they evolve over time, some falling out of favor others being created as conditions warrant. 

most dept. of ag and markets define honey and require a product labeled as such to meet those requirements. the guy who feeds sugar syrup and bottles and labels it as honey after the bees process it is not meeting the definition of honey as defined. not only is he a bad beekeeper that shows little common sense and may lack integrity but is selling something other than honey and it is mislabeled.
regulations and laws hold people accountable for their actions, negligence etc.
ignorance by that guy is not a defense, if I recall. 
-I didn't know- won't work.

sometimes when you bet you lose. 
regardless, I'll continue selling my honey crop with full disclosure from my managed hives.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Clydroad


> the point is what?


Cut out honey can be good honey.
Good honey is good honey no matter what.
Good honey is safe honey.
There is good and bad honey in hives and cut outs. Good honey is good.
Cheers
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Fivej


> Bingo. I might add that if the integrity of honey producers is compromised by just a few people with GWW's attitude, it could take down the whole industry.


Quote from pms1212


> I did a cut out of a hive that was 20 feet up in an oak tree before a tornado blew the tree down.


So you are trying to say if I sold pms1212 cut out honey from my quote from him that I can take down the whole honey producers industery? Geeze.:ws:
Cheers
gww


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Fivej said:


> Bingo. I might add that if the integrity of honey producers is compromised by just a few people with GWW's attitude, it could take down the whole industry.


Hilarious. GWW is now a menace to the future of beekeeping. This place is rich. Yes, the wisdom of the great State of Texas should be revered by all. God only knows their legislature is so much smarter than the legislature of GWW's home state of Mo. And they are all experienced beekeepers with knowledge of such things. 

As with all things, show me the double-blind, peer-reviewed studies that conclusively show that that honey from cut-outs is less sanitary than honey from managed hives. Until then, I will show you a legislature that has no business making laws about things they do not understand and have never studied.


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## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

It was mentioned that there were bee bodies. I'm sure some were crushed and their body contents spilled out in the honey. If the honey gets sold, it should be clear to the buyer that some of their honey may have bee guts, blood, and/or feces mixed in. Honey collected by responsible beekeepers will not have any of that mixed in.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

psm1212 said:


> As with all things, show me the double-blind, peer-reviewed studies that conclusively show that that honey from cut-outs is less sanitary than honey from managed hives. Until then, I will show you a legislature that has no business making laws about things they do not understand and have never studied.


that's a cop out. if you really wanted to find the basis for and reasoning behind that Tx law you'd look it up for yourself. until then, you have no idea what they understand or info they have studied.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> that's a cop out. if you really wanted to find the basis for and reasoning behind that Tx law you'd look it up for yourself. until then, you have no idea what they understand or info they have studied.


Very hard to find something that is not there. If you have inside info, please share with the group. Otherwise, GWW may bring the whole industry to its knees.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Laws are made by people with nothing better to do than to justify their existance. However, many bills are proposed because someone did not use common sense and the lawmakers need to protect us from ourselves. Take for example the little packet inside a pill bottle designed to absorb moisture. Any idea why it says " do not eat" on it? Cause somewhere some idiot ate it and got sick. Now the label is a law everyone has to abide by. There are hundreds of examples in your home, every one of them the result of someone not using common sense. Yes the law is stupid, but so are a lot of people.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

ericweller said:


> It was mentioned that there were bee bodies. I'm sure some were crushed and their body contents spilled out in the honey. If the honey gets sold, it should be clear to the buyer that some of their honey may have bee guts, blood, and/or feces mixed in. Honey collected by responsible beekeepers will not have any of that mixed in.


Have you never found a bee or a part of a bee in your filters after you rendered honey?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

This is what I could find. The reason given for the change in law which in my view was a change for the better just like what Mo did was a change for the better.

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/84R/analysis/html/SB01766F.htm
Cheers
gww
Ps I am not a lawyer and don't play one on tv but even reading this law and looking to intent as oppossed to the exact words, I am not sure if cut outs would not fit and be legal to sell. It seems the wording is to clarify what is pure with no additives more then the how of it. I could not find all the fines and stuff that was mentioned by mike. I guess it depends on if its true meaning is "have to be kept in this way" or more "here are examples of what we mean as pure and of who size wise we mean this to cover". I am not sure that it is illegal to sell cut out honey and wonder if there is a case where someone has been fined or convicted which is what usually gives meaning to What the words mean. I understand that ignorence is not a defence but a defence based on a spicific situation might be made. The reason for the law was not to do with cut outs or managed hives, it was to make a portion of the public that kept bees on a smaller scale to not have to jump through the hoops that the big guys had to jump though.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

psm1212 said:


> Have you never found a bee or a part of a bee in your filters after you rendered honey?


If straining bee parts out of your honey makes you queasy, trust me that you do NOT want to know what is allowed by the USDA to be in peanut butter.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

wow people are itching for a fight today.... we all must be crabby not being able to get in our hives.
last cut out I did was the floor of a shed... dirt, rocks and roting wood... figgered it wasn't table honey lol so I made mead


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Msl


> last cut out I did was the floor of a shed... dirt, rocks and roting wood... figgered it wasn't table honey lol so I made mead


When will it be clear and good? I will be right over. I have never had the pleasure of tasting mead yet.
Cheers
gww


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I am trying to figure out who decided we were now too stupid to responsibly pour gas into our lawn mowers. Has anybody purchased a gas can in the last few years? Talk about unintended consequences. I now just have to throw away the spring-loaded spout and pour it right out of the can and wind up spilling far more than I ever did with the old spouts.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

pms1212
Makes you want to start yard saleing to try and find a few old ones don't it.
I don't have to take the nozzle off cause most of them crack around the threads making the cap no good anyway. The cans take the top off for me with use.
Cheers
gww


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## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

The OP said "hundreds of bee bodies". I see a few in the strainer but never hundreds. That honey would be fit to feed to bees but not humans.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

To put this in a differrent context. If a beekeeper sold you his bees and was just tired of it and sold them with the honey not taken off (I actually seen a guy do this cause he was tired of it and wanted to fish more with his grand kids rather then Spend it extracting honey. He sold them 4 hives per pallet honey and all for $1200).

Under this law with this language taken litterally, it would be illegal to harvest and use that honey on those bought hives, say from your neibor. 

This honey in those bought supers would be exactly the same as cut out honey would be under the wording of the texas law.

Do all of you cut out is illegal guys see that the honey in the bought supers is illegal also?

Is this what the legislators mean and the words of the law make it so? Could you keep the three combs they drew and filled after you bought them but have to throw away the 30 frames that were built and filled before you bought the hive?

It is what the law says but is it what the law means or is it more meaning that if you keep hives like it is saying that you don't need a liesence when you sell honey unless you sell too much dollar amount? Is it ok to use common sense and try to live by the intent of the law reconizing that it proby doesn't mean you need to throw away stuff you know is good? Would you buy these hives and throw away the honey?

I know the posted wording of the law, what is the right thing to do? Serious question here on what is and is not common sence?

eric


> The OP said "hundreds of bee bodies". I see a few in the strainer but never hundreds. That honey would be fit to feed to bees but not humans.


I would not feed swarm or cut out honey to my hives due to disiese.

Cheers
gww

ps I also find this quote from the link I posted interesting.


> This bill does not expressly grant any additional rulemaking authority to a state officer, institution, or agency.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Gww, I beg to differ. Under the Texas law, the honey must be extracted from hives you own and manage. I think once you bought the hives, you own the comb and honey. And the first management decision you make is to extract the honey. Under the law you may not purchase already extracted honey and offer it for sale, even if it comes from a registered and inspected facility.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Please stay more closely on topic and let's not get personal.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Thank God for the moderators.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Jw
I understand your responce but with that responce you would think that a cut out at the minute of your ownership would be the same as a hive you bought.

The reason that I put my questions like I did are based on this.

In post number three this portion was high lighted as the reason cut out honey was illegal.


> (b) * owned and managed by the
> beekeeper;*


This means that the words are being taken on thier own and literally rather then being part of an explanatory text explaining a position. If each word is taken on its own literally, Then if I highlight this also from post three of this thread and interpet it in the same context.


> (B) sells or distributes the honey or honeycomb
> that the beekeeper produces either personally or with the help of
> the beekeeper's immediate family members;


This would make only comb and honey that you personally made legal to sell.

However, if it is just an explanatory part of the law to show what type of bee keepers that fit the law and because you own and mangage after buying the hives, then you would take owner ship also at the point you performed a cut out. I guess my point is that there is either latitude or there is not.

I would take the same position as you if I bought my neibors hives with honey on them and consider it common sence. I don't see how somebody can have thier cake and eat it too though where one regaurdless of the wording of a law is ok and one position will destroy bee keeping because you are willing to violate the law.

I think I am right on the wording of the law even if others pick a differrent position on what is common sence. I understand somebody saying they would not keep cut out honey but at the point that the law is used as the reason to call someone wrong then that same law would applie in other situations and make wrong those situations also.

If however it is a feeling with out the law being used as a club and the feeling is this is ok and that is not, then it becomes common sense and people can pick thier spots on who to look up to and who to look down on and it become more opinion with whatever reasons can be put to that opinion.

Does this make any sense to you?
Cheers
gww
Ps Jw, Your position on the bought hives is basically the same position I took on post five of this thread with a cut out and that is what started all this. I did say the word "stupid" which probly did set peoples positions harder then they might have been in just a normal discussion.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

ericweller said:


> It was mentioned that there were bee bodies. I'm sure some were crushed and their body contents spilled out in the honey. If the honey gets sold, it should be clear to the buyer that some of their honey may have bee guts, blood, and/or feces mixed in. Honey collected by responsible beekeepers will not have any of that mixed in.


I dont know that I have ever seen or heard of a beekeeper who has extracted honey and never mashed a bee or had any bee parts or anything in their honey!!!


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

So far I have not seen anyone post a link to wording in that law that specifically excludes cutout honey. What we do have is an interpretation of the law and a theortical rational for that interpretation by an individual citing insecticide usage and safety concerns among others. Valid points, but is it the law? We get into a great big sometimes heated discussion about this and for what? The Texas law you posted a link to reads almost the same as our law in Virginia. It was not designed to promote public safety, rather to promote the sale of honey by the small hobbiest beekeeper. In that frame of reference, I think an interpretation that cutout comb and other "in the wild" sourced comb does not meet the criteria for sale is the stupid part. After all the bees produce the honey, not the beekeeper. We extract it and since the law is written to exempt the registration and inspection of the small producer's facility, I think that was the lawmaker's sole intent.
I could be wrong, but show me the law, as written, that addresses this.

So, I am on the side of common sense. I wouldn't sell or give away any honey that I did not consider wholesome and of good quality. Now, what to do with all these strained out bee parts?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Jw


> So, I am on the side of common sense. I wouldn't sell or give away any honey that I did not consider wholesome and of good quality.


And nor would I.
Thanks
gww


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

TW, in all the hoopla surounding this I hope you have figured out that crush and strain is your best option for extracting your honey. Use a colander to catch the big pieces and finer screens on subsequent pours to get the smaller particles. Dead bees and bee parts get strained out and are not a factor in the quality of the honey. You do know how honey is made, right? Warming the honey will make it strain faster. The other thing you should have learned is that you may not sell this honey. You can give it away, consume it yourself, or use it to feed your own bees. ( Or you can send it all to me and I'll eat it!). And finally, you should have learned that beekeepers are all highly opinionated. Not right, not wrong, just strong believers. Here's hoping that your killer bee honey is delicious.


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## Tighty_Whitey (Jan 18, 2017)

FWIW on the subject of whether or not "wild" honey should be legal to sell is whether or not anyone has ever had any consequences of ingesting contaminated honey.

I see both sides. Obviously on the one hand you don't want people getting sick and maybe dying due to contamination, but on the other hand you also don't need unnecessary regulations running mom & pop operations making supplemental income out of business. A balance needs to be achieved, and where along the spectrum between "no regulation" and "too much regulation" is the question.

Which starts out in a very pragmatic way. Has anyone ever been made ill, or suffered serious effects from contaminated honey? If "No", then a lot of this discussion is a waste of time as it attempts to solve a problem that may not even exist. First question to ask is "Is there a real problem here, or is it just a potential problem or concern that some people believe needs to be addressed BEFORE it becomes a problem."

I mention all of this because a "potential problem" can be just as real as a "documented problem". My point is that before having the big discussion on the need for safety regulations in the "honey industry", everyone should be clear on which of the two best describes this situation.

On my situation, the talk about hundreds of dead bees in the honey is most concerning as I had intended to give the honey away to neighbors. The number is probably closer to "dozens". I've been picking them out one at a time before crushing the honeycombs, and it's time-consuming and tedious, but there was also some suspiciously white bits in the crushed honeycomb/honey mixture that might be bee larvae. I'm worried about disease, bacteria, someone said "feces", etc...

Also this crushing technique sucks. It's a thick mess and the honey really doesn't want to flow out of the ball of crushed honeycomb. I think I'm going to lose about half the honey using this method and now I can see why they use a (spinning) extractor. I'm thinking about making some kind of "crushing" weight that sits on top of a container and applies constant pressure to the mixture. Also doing an experiment in the oven where I put the stuff in a strainer in a large pot and put the oven at 120 degrees or so to allow the honey to flow better.

And I wondered what might happen if I heated the mixture up even more, so that the wax melts and separates from the honey. What's the melting temperature of bees wax, and what harm might happen to the honey if I do this? Part of me thinks that this could be considered "pasteurizing" and might even make the honey safer by killing any bacteria.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I don't know how far along you are in this process but typically you would cut away the comb that is not capped or ready to be capped honey. That would eliminate any eggs or larvae that might be present. Then you would thoroughly crush the honeycomb to open all the cells and let it strain for a day or two. A warm room at 95° would help. If you melt the wax, you will have huge mess as all the cocoons will come out of the brood comb that got crushed and be in the honey. You should not try to get ready to eat honey on the first straining. Use a very coarse strainer first to get the big stuff and a finer screen the second time around. You might even try a mesh laundry bag hung over a bucket for the initial straining. Lots of youtube vids on this. Barnyard bees has a good one.
Ignor the comment about feces. Bees don't do #2 in the hive, although hive beetles do doodoo and it will cause the honey to ferment.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Tighty
I think jw's suggestion of you tube is not bad. Yes you get a big chunk of gooyie stuff and it seems like you are wasting a lot but what I found wether spinning or crushing, in the end I usually end up with the same amount of honey from a comb and so it is not really a waste. I also think over all that crush and strain is easier then extracting and even extracting you end up with the gooye mess from the cappings. In the end you get what you get. After you get it, if you just let it settle for a couple of days to a week, it will get better with the heavy stuff going to the bottom and the light stuff going to the top. You could while you were picking out bees have got rid of most of the uncapped and really ugly stuff and I would not heat the honey to 120 at least untill I have got most of what I could before getting to that point. Honey has peroxide in it and that is one of the good things that helps fight any bad bacteria and such and is one of the reasons it was so easy for the government to be lax on processing and bottleing it. It Doesn't need as much help as say canning tomatoes or something to stay safe as it naturally fights bad stuff.

The two best things in my veiw for the honey would have been to have seperated any big areas of comb that was not capped and would shake out and then to make sure it has a fairily decent lid on it and is covered so it does not draw extra moister from the air.

In the end, you probly will not get every drop out of the wax. You will get what you get and if after all the big stuff is out and you let it sit in a fairily warm place, time and small heat will be your friend. If it is some how too wet you could always find ways to use it fast or do like some and make mead (something I have never tried yet). It is a lot of work and nothing ever ends up being as free as it seems when just thinking about it. I find extracting to be even more work then just crush and strain with out giving any more. You tube may be your friend on this process and at some point you will end up with what you end up with.

I hope this helps in some way.
Cheers
gww
Ps People may have laughed about my mentioning panty hose but it works very well when doing only a comb or two at a time. The paint strainers work and some of the tractor stores now sell cloth 5 gal bucket strainers but they are over priced. I am using a micro mesh right now. The only reason I mention the above and even if you used your origional cheese cloth (I would seperated it from the easy honey that just ran out if using cheese cloth due to hearing it can cause quicker chryslization) is that you could break it down to smaller clumps and squeeze them with your hand and get a little more till your hand gets tired. Your honey press is also on you tube and really does not look that hard to build though I would not mess with it for a one time thing. We used to have a sauerkraut rock to squish out extra water with weight and time.
Good luck


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## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

JWPalmer said:


> Ignor the comment about feces. Bees don't do #2 in the hive, although hive beetles do doodoo and it will cause the honey to ferment.


I beg to differ. Although bees don't defecate voluntarily in the hive, if they are squished, I can guarantee that they will poop. Its simple physics.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

ericweller said:


> I beg to differ. Although bees don't defecate voluntarily in the hive, if they are squished, I can guarantee that they will poop. Its simple physics.


I stand corrected.:lookout:

Try not to squeeze the you know what out of the bees!


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

We used to have a sauerkraut rock...

Gww, I knew we had a lot in common. Besides bees that is.

The panty hose as a strainer is probably the cheapest way to get a good initial strain. And you can sqeeze it pretty hard to get most of the honey out and then let it hang while rest dribbles out over time.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Jw
For some reason I get the feeling you may be familure in your younger days with the old copper kettles and the big wood hoe with the holes in it. 

Even if I am wrong, I bet, like you say, we have quite a bit in common.
Cheers
gww


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

psm1212 said:


> I would say that you "owned and managed" that hive. Neighbor doesn't want it back does he? There is your ownership. He gave it to you. You killed the bees, right? There is your management. Label it up and stick an $18/quart price tag on it.


I read that he just took the TV and bees and never asked or received "ownership" from the neighbor.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Groundhwg
You did read that but it was posted after pms1212 posted what you just high lighted. 
Cheers
gww


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Groundhwg, you make a very good point. TW has already admitted to aquiring the bees and honey by tresspass, so he does not own the honey. On the flip side though, he saved his A word neighbor thousands of dollars in medical bills had his wife been stung because the neighbor was maintaing a nuisance and would potentially have been liable.

That Bee Law paper was very enlightening.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Jw


> That Bee Law paper was very enlightening.


Others may not have followed the other thread where you posted this link. I will say that the paper would fit this thread quite well as far as the cut out honey being legal in texas as it gives good referance to actual ownership rights and insite into when bees are wild like the birds and when they become true property.
Cheers.
gww


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## Tighty_Whitey (Jan 18, 2017)

Groundhwg said:


> I read that he just took the TV and bees and never asked or received "ownership" from the neighbor.


That is correct. I stole the two junked TVs out of his back yard after breaking a 5 foot wide hole in his fence. Months ago I knocked on his door; no answer. Then went around and talked to all his neighbors. He drinks a lot and has the reputation for being an "a-word" that doesn't care about anyone. One neighbor told me his wife left him years ago for that very reason. After waiting 3 months I decided that enough was enough and I got those bees gone. He could call the cops. Tonight I went out in the cold night with a garden hose and sprayed the pieces of the TV set down real good to totally destroy whatever structured hive might remain in the nooks and crannies and also to dissolve whatever honey might be in there feeding the bees who were still there during the warmth of the day today. About 100 of them hovering around, and still pissed-off. These are definitely Africanized bees. A few months ago I posted a question here about another wild hive that was causing problems and I asked in that 1st thread if the bees might be Africanized and someone told me that if I could mow within 10 feet of that hive, they were definitely not Africanized, because if they were I would definately know it.

These most definitely ARE Africanized. I stepped on a dead one on my kitchen floor with bare feet and got stung. I picked a dead one out of the honey and got stung. These guys don't f- around, and so neither do I. One stung me through the fabric of the gloves I was wearing when I was using the bee suit. I thought the gloves would have been thick enough. They were those automotive/construction worker gloves you buy at Home Depot, with the synthetic fabric (not cloth). So I had to wear two pairs of gloves. Wearing the bee suit was scary at first. The bees would make a (wait for it) BEELINE straight for my face. When they hit the screen of the face netting, it made a "thunk" noise that sounded like the snapping of a trampoline. They covered the bee suit and died there trying to sting the fabric. Somewhere here I read to duct tape the bottom of the pants legs and the wrists. Glad I did that. Made sure to wear high-top work boots.

One thing I noticed was that there seemed to be outer "warrior bees" and inner "worker bees", because at some point in the cutting/collection process, the bees were very calm, like all the fighter bees had died and all that was left were the inside housekeeping bees.

I think I've got the bee bug now. I remember all through Elementary School they'd tell us all about bees and how important they were to the ecology, and how they communicated etc... and I never had any kind of practical interest in them. The old man across the street kept them in his back yard and every once in a while you'd see him in a bee suit loading the hives into the back of his old truck. Taking them to some farm somewhere I suppose. But never had the (wait for it) "bug" for bees. But facing certain death in a bee suit has changed me forever. I feel like all my warrior instincts have been reawakened, and I've found a worthy adversary. Lol.

Anyways, I'm toying with the idea of "doing bees".

Also I got the point about the extraction vs. crushing having about the same amount of honey waste. It's going to be what it's going to be.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Glad to hear that you have been bitten by the bee bug so to speak. It is truly a fun and rewarding experience. I would suggest you do NOT start off with AHB's and buy a new epi-pen just in case. Please let us know what the final tally was on the honey and be sure to read up on how to render the wax from the comb.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Tighty
If my wife was alergic and I was going to get bees, I would defanatly be putting the entrance of the hive in front of a solid 6 foot or so wall so that thier flight path to and from the hive was above her head.
Good luck
gww


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## mike17l (Jun 22, 2012)

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/HS/htm/HS.437.htm

HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE

TITLE 6. FOOD, DRUGS, ALCOHOL, AND HAZARDOUS SUBSTANCES

SUBTITLE A. FOOD AND DRUG HEALTH REGULATIONS

CHAPTER 437. REGULATION OF FOOD SERVICE ESTABLISHMENTS, RETAIL FOOD STORES, MOBILE FOOD UNITS, AND ROADSIDE FOOD VENDORS

(7) "Small honey production operation" means a beekeeper that:
(A) produces less than 2,500 pounds of honey each year;
(B) sells or distributes the honey or honeycomb that the beekeeper produces either personally or with the help of the beekeeper's immediate family members;
(C) only sells or distributes honey or honeycomb:
(i) that is produced from a hive that is:
(a) located in the state; and
(b) owned and managed by the beekeeper;
(ii) that is pure honey as defined by Section 131.001, Agriculture Code, and that is raw and not blended with any other product or otherwise adulterated; and
(iii) directly to consumers at the beekeeper's home, a farmer's market, a farm stand, or a municipal, county, or nonprofit fair, festival, or event; and
(D) delivers the honey or honeycomb that the beekeeper produces to the consumer at the point of sale or another location designated by the consumer.





Tighty_Whitey said:


> That is correct. I stole the two junked TVs out of his back yard after breaking a 5 foot wide hole in his fence. Months ago I knocked on his door; no answer. Then went around and talked to all his neighbors. He drinks a lot and has the reputation for being an "a-word" that doesn't care about anyone. One neighbor told me his wife left him years ago for that very reason. After waiting 3 months I decided that enough was enough and I got those bees gone. He could call the cops. Tonight I went out in the cold night with a garden hose and sprayed the pieces of the TV set down real good to totally destroy whatever structured hive might remain in the nooks and crannies and also to dissolve whatever honey might be in there feeding the bees who were still there during the warmth of the day today. About 100 of them hovering around, and still pissed-off. These are definitely Africanized bees. A few months ago I posted a question here about another wild hive that was causing problems and I asked in that 1st thread if the bees might be Africanized and someone told me that if I could mow within 10 feet of that hive, they were definitely not Africanized, because if they were I would definately know it.
> 
> These most definitely ARE Africanized. I stepped on a dead one on my kitchen floor with bare feet and got stung. I picked a dead one out of the honey and got stung. These guys don't f- around, and so neither do I. One stung me through the fabric of the gloves I was wearing when I was using the bee suit. I thought the gloves would have been thick enough. They were those automotive/construction worker gloves you buy at Home Depot, with the synthetic fabric (not cloth). So I had to wear two pairs of gloves. Wearing the bee suit was scary at first. The bees would make a (wait for it) BEELINE straight for my face. When they hit the screen of the face netting, it made a "thunk" noise that sounded like the snapping of a trampoline. They covered the bee suit and died there trying to sting the fabric. Somewhere here I read to duct tape the bottom of the pants legs and the wrists. Glad I did that. Made sure to wear high-top work boots.
> 
> ...


If you think those were africanized, please don't toy with the idea of doing bees. especially if you make questionable decisions trespassing onto others property. You are lucky you were not shot. You cannot tell if bees are Africanized by temperament. An Africanized label requires lab analysis. Stings when you crush a bee will happen by any bee, Africanized or not.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Thanks for posting the link to the statute Mike. 

I read this provision as providing an exemption for a rule and not a prohibition of the sale of honey. First, the statute talks only about what county and municipal health departments "MAY" do to regulate retail food establishments. Then it carves out certain exception, such as one for beekeepers, and says that counties and municipalities in Texas MAY NOT use the rules to regulate these "Small Honey Production Operations." What I do not see is anything that makes it illegal for a guy with a jar of honey to sell that jar to another guy. 

Now, IF a county or municipality decided it wanted to regulate, permit or license such things as food sales, this legislation provides what they can and cannot require of Texas citizens in that regard.

But I did not see ANYTHING that says that TightyWhitey can't crush and strain his TV honey into some quart jars and sell it. (Leaving any criminal laws for stealing it aside for purposes of this discussion).


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Well, _*IF*_ the hive was deemed stolen, then the honey is _not_ from a hive "(b) owned and managed by the beekeeper" (see the TX Code in post #61). Possession of stolen property does not make one the legal "owner" of that property.


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## mike17l (Jun 22, 2012)

psm1212 said:


> Thanks for posting the link to the statute Mike.
> 
> I read this provision as providing an exemption for a rule and not a prohibition of the sale of honey. First, the statute talks only about what county and municipal health departments "MAY" do to regulate retail food establishments. Then it carves out certain exception, such as one for beekeepers, and says that counties and municipalities in Texas MAY NOT use the rules to regulate these "Small Honey Production Operations." What I do not see is anything that makes it illegal for a guy with a jar of honey to sell that jar to another guy.
> 
> ...


A court battle would be required. The governing body, DSHS, has made it very clear that cutout honey is not an acceptable source of honey to be sold. DSHS has also made it very clear they will prosecute as necessary. 




Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well, _*IF*_ the hive was deemed stolen, then the honey is _not_ from a hive "(b) owned and managed by the beekeeper" (see the TX Code in post #61). Possession of stolen property does not make one the legal "owner" of that property.


Yup.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well, _*IF*_ the hive was deemed stolen, then the honey is _not_ from a hive "(b) owned and managed by the beekeeper" (see the TX Code in post #61). Possession of stolen property does not make one the legal "owner" of that property.


My point is that, even if he did not own the hive, there is nothing solely within this statute, that prevents him from selling the honey. Again, I am ignoring the larceny issue for purposes of the discussion.

This thread is focusing on the definitional section of the statute. Specifically, the definition of "Small Honey Production Operations." However, NOTHING within the statute requires that honey may ONLY be sold by those that qualify as "Small Honey Production Operations." The statute merely provides an EXEMPTION in the laws that govern "food service establishments." The following is the only mention of "Small Honey Production Operation" in the statute: 

_Sec. 437.0197. EXEMPTION FOR SMALL HONEY PRODUCTION OPERATION. A small honey production operation is not a food service establishment for purposes of this chapter.

Added by Acts 2015, 84th Leg., R.S., Ch. 265 (S.B. 1766), Sec. 2, eff. September 1, 2015.


Sec. 437.0198. REGULATION OF SMALL HONEY PRODUCTION OPERATION PROHIBITED. A local government authority, including a local health department, may not regulate the production of honey or honeycomb at a small honey production operation.

Added by Acts 2015, 84th Leg., R.S., Ch. 265 (S.B. 1766), Sec. 2, eff. September 1, 2015._

So, unless Tighty ****** otherwise qualifies as one of the several types of "food service establishments" as further defined in the statute, I don't see where it prohibits him from selling the TV honey. And even IF Tighty ****** DOES otherwise qualify as a "food service establishment" under the statute, the statute still does not apply to him unless he is selling the honey in a jurisdiction (county or municipal) that elected to adopt the statute and license/permit such activities.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

psm1212 said:


> My point is that, even if he did not own the hive, there is nothing solely within this statute, that prevents him from selling the honey. Again, I am ignoring the larceny issue for purposes of the discussion.


Well, if you are speaking of some "_generic situation_" cutout honey in Texas, then that may a different issue. But the situation in _this thread_ is that the hive was acquired by knocking a hole in the neighbor's fence (without permission or consent) and then removing the TV/hive from the neighbor's property. 

Aside from the [separate] issue of whether the OP could/would be charged with theft, the TX Health and Safety Statute (see post #61) clearly says that the honey must be from a hive "*(b) owned and managed by the beekeeper*". Since the OP _cannot_ meet that requirement, [*he does not own the hive*] selling this particular batch of cutout honey is not permissible under the TX Health and Safety Statute cited in post #61.

.


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## mike17l (Jun 22, 2012)

psm1212 said:


> My point is that, even if he did not own the hive, there is nothing solely within this statute, that prevents him from selling the honey. Again, I am ignoring the larceny issue for purposes of the discussion.
> 
> This thread is focusing on the definitional section of the statute. Specifically, the definition of "Small Honey Production Operations." However, NOTHING within the statute requires that honey may ONLY be sold by those that qualify as "Small Honey Production Operations." The statute merely provides an EXEMPTION in the laws that govern "food service establishments." The following is the only mention of "Small Honey Production Operation" in the statute:
> 
> ...


If the honey does not fall under the exemption, then "In order to sell honey as food in Texas, you will need to follow the rules for Good Manufacturing Practices (GMPs) 25 TAC §§229.210-229.222 and obtain a food manufacturing license." 

Obviously this is not the case, so the only option is to sell under the exemption. However, there is a fundamental flaw:



mike17l said:


> http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/HS/htm/HS.437.htm
> 
> HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE
> 
> ...


Texas Ag Code 131 defines a "beekeeper":
"a person who owns, leases, or manages one or more colonies of bees for pollination or the production of honey, beeswax, or other by-products, either for personal or commercial use."

Tightywhity is not a beekeeper, and thus cannot use the exemption, and thus must follow GMPs. That has not happened, the TV honey is illegal to sell. There is no ambiguity, there is no interpretation, it is illegal to sell.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Mike
This is texas definition of beekeeper. 


> (3) "Beekeeper" means a person who owns, leases, or manages one or more colonies of bees for pollination or the production of honey, beeswax, or other by-products, either for personal or commercial use.


Since mike does not own the hive unless given to him, he does not fit. He would fit if it was given to him.

We know it was not given to him yet.

I do wonder where you get this.


> The governing body, DSHS, has made it very clear that cutout honey is not an acceptable source of honey to be sold. DSHS has also made it very clear they will prosecute as necessary.


Is this from comments from the inspector or is there a pamplet? I did skim read your links.

There is a differance from cut out honey being illegal to sale and mikes situation.

You may be correct on it taking a court battle to work out the details of intent of the law. You put forth how serious the DSHS seems to be on this and if that is the case you would have thought there was somewhere where they already proved this with an enforcement action that would have answered any questions. What way is the DSHA notifying the public of thier position that they will enforce the non sale of cut out honey?
Thanks
gww

I would point out to pms1212 taking the position that it might not be illeagal to sell already bottled honey and also something that jw said earlier that you could not sale honey under these laws that someone else extracted. Two things. One, if someone bought a gal of honey cause it was cheaper and then put it in quarts and sold three of those quarts or things like michael palmer does where he sells most of his honey to smaller beekeepers who then resale it as well as sale thier own. These practices may be illegal (Though in Mo it is not illegal now) but it is one of the things that lets michael maximize his profit and from his side of it, it is not illegal for his part of this. Not nessisaraly saying you should violate laws but also with in reason, the government is not going to go out and inforce against those guys with thier rules unless someone pushes hard. If some one pushes hard, the gov will do like MO and change it so that common practice is no longer illegal or will enforce it and try to stop the practice. It is not a bad practice and so legal or not, it is what happens in common for now.

I could be a little wet on the above due to someone like michael being big enough to be selling from a comercial inspected kitchen and so his is a differrent product but to put into perspective the commoness of this activity, One of my bee club officers said if I was going to sell my honey for $6 a pint, he would buy it from me and sell it for $10 a pint. Neither of us would fit the commecial status and it is now not illegal to do in MO but it used to be and I have no doubt that when it was, he would have made the same offer.


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## mike17l (Jun 22, 2012)

gww said:


> Mike
> This is texas definition of beekeeper.
> 
> 
> ...


Mike or tighty ******? getting confused? 




gww said:


> I do wonder where you get this.
> 
> 
> Is this from comments from the inspector or is there a pamplet? I did skim read your links.
> ...


Yvette Mendoza is a Compliance Officer with DSHS and is more than willing to speak with local organizations about the laws pertaining to bottling and selling honey. Tonight she is speaking with the Golden Crescent Beekeepers Association (Victoria, TX) about this very thing. In the past she has spoken with the Coastal Bend Beekeepers Association (Corpus Christi, TX). DSHS is doing their part to insure beekeepers in Texas know the laws pertaining to selling honey. Feel free to contact DSHS and ask for Yvette Mendoza. 512-834-6670 
I am digging up the email correspondence from Mrs. Mendoza that is very clear on DSHS's standpoint on this matter.


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## mike17l (Jun 22, 2012)

A reply to a letter from a local association president:




> Good morning Dennis,
> 
> I apologize for the delay, it seems like your email was deemed suspicious and sent to my junk email.
> 
> ...


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

mike


> Mike or tighty ******? getting confused?


Aparrently I was the one getting confused. My fingers don't always follow my brain.
Cheers
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Mike
I see in the email that the position of this compliance officer is clear even if untested.

I doubt I will contact her after your posting of her position. I do say that in one way her position reminds me of a conservation officers position that I once had contact with. We were setting up to drive deer and he pulled over to check out liesences. The county was divided up into numbered units and they gave out doe tags for those units. We were on the line with unit 30 being on one side of the highway and unit 31 being on the other side. He gave us this big speach on how we could not shoot a doe where we were based on our tags. Rather then argue with him and get out a bunch of maps, we let him speak and told him we did not intend to violate the law and let him go on our way and just did what we wanted because we had zero doubt that even though he was in a position of power, we would win if it went to court because he was confused and we were on the correct side of the road. We did not feel the need to prove it to him cause it would have been good time wasted when we could just spend it hunting. 

This is not to question the position of the compliance officer but more to point out that she did mix two things in her email that do not go in the same place to make a point that only one of the two things she listed had bearing since the texas law 1766 was amended in 2015.

The whole point of the 2015 amending of the law was to get rid of this requirement.


> 229.211 Definitions
> 
> (4) Approved source – a supplier of food that complies with applicable state and federal law and is licensed, if required, and inspected by the regulatory authority having jurisdiction over the processing and distribution of food.


Her responce does bring into question of my previous post asking if it was illegal to extract honey from hives you may have bought that still have honey supers on as they also don't fit the definition of a small honey producer and we know the second reason of coming from an approve source has been amended.

Because I might argue with her position does not mean that I don't think she has that position just as the consevation officer had his position that he may have acted on.

I do understand that you are presenting the position accurately and not just making it up.

My guess is that it has never and there will probly never be an effort to try and inforce it and know if I bought my neibors hives, I am going to extract the honey. I really think that court cases are not worth it even when you win and so might not push the issue but also am not sure her email is on solid footing though it is her job. I do know the position though and would add that to any decission I decided on.
Thanks for posting it.
gww


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## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

I use a contract for doing cutouts. Forget my exact wording but to the effect that the complete hive: bees, combs, brood, and honey stores, become the property of the beekeeper when the cutout begins. (also a release for stings from "my" bees.)

Makes it my hive. Managed? well....
Ohio requires registration for apiaries. I have to register my locations once a year. Cutouts come to my apiaries, but don't start there.

All my cutout honey goes for feed or mead. sometimes i keep some purdy combs for me.

TW, strain what you can for liquid honey, keep the gooey mess of combs in a strainer bag. Dunk that in a bucket of warm (95-100) water and swirl till the honey is washed out of the combs. Discard comb bag, proceed with favorite mead recipe.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

And the funniest part about this thread; the OP never said anything about selling the honey. Post number 3 assumed it. Even after TW denied wanting to sell the honey, the argument about selling cut-out honey continued. I guess this is how beekeepers entertain themselves in the boring winter months.
thanks for the laugh! :lpf:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Note that the thread originator _Tighty ******_ _*did*_ invite discussion on whether selling cutout honey was legal in post #47: 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...&p=1592709&highlight=consequences#post1592709


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Hops
Do you believe that is is irresponcible to eat or even give away any cut out honey?

The assumption of selling was brought up in post three of this thread but it was expanded on that all cut out honey was bad and was irresponcible to be used in any way for human consumption. 
Cheers
gww


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

says can't sell OR distribute... I recall having a discussion about this earlier, but the details of why the law were passed I don't seem to recall but it was discussed. I recall asking the general opinion on cut out honey as when I joined beesource I got the impression you should not distribute honey from any hive you do not know the history of for that honey crop. I can assume there is some due diligence that could be done to establish the honey is not tainted but in general I personally would be leery of risking my business on selling a little honey that I did not manage. when I did ask the question though, I think general consensus was that you should only feed it back to bees (cut out honey) but there were a fair amount of people that had no issues selling or distributing it as long as they felt it was clean and no one had sprayed it recently before it was removed. One of the main arguments though was that a lot of beeks had experiences with owners that assured the hive hadn't been sprayed prior to the removal but once they got in there it was blatantly obvious it had been so it was easier to treat all hives as suspect and only feed it back to the bees.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Jrg13
I wish I had seen that other thread. I would say even feeding, I would not want to do it if it had been sprayed by pesticide. I absolutly agree that caution and also not always believing what is told to you. Nothing wrong with extra caution to a point. I also say if I come onto some really pretty white capped honey that I am really sure of, that throwing it away would be more waste then I could stand. I also think that you can judge some people when they tell you something and that when it is your job and you go out and do all calls you get, you probly run into all kinds of things but not all are bad and I do sorta agree with pms1212 in that I would trust some cut out honey more then I would trust some honey in the hives of some beekeepers. There may very well be laws agianst it in some places but I can't make myself think that is a good regulation.

I do appretiate (unless I am reading it wrong) that you seem to indicate that being suspisious of all hives and not just cut outs, that you don't know the history of. That makes sense to me though even then I would not want a regulation that stopped good stuff that you could be really sure of to not make it be wasted.

I appretiate you pointing out your take on the last thread on this subjects results.
Cheers
gww
Ps I don't really have much of a buisness per say but more love most of the peole that are currently eating my honey. It is people I am confident that I am not going to hurt.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

In this paricular case, I think it is a safe bet that the bees were not sprayed. After all, TW lives next door, and anyone that has a junk TV in their backyard is probably not running around with a can of Raid spraying everything that goes buzz. Heck, he probably didn't even know there were bees in the TV.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

I believe what grandpa taught me. "Assumption is the mother of all foul ups." 
I also believe I'll have another laugh :lpf:


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## sr4440 (Nov 30, 2016)

Hops Brewster said:


> And the funniest part about this thread; the OP never said anything about selling the honey. Post number 3 assumed it. Even after TW denied wanting to sell the honey, the argument about selling cut-out honey continued. I guess this is how beekeepers entertain themselves in the boring winter months.
> thanks for the laugh! :lpf:


No, I didn't "assume it". I just stated that it was illegal for him to sell it in Texas. The reason I stated the law, was if that was his plan, he was going to run afoul of the law in TEXAS. (he has 60 lbs.) 

Joe


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Hops is probably right about bored beekeepers finding things to do when waiting around for Spring, but I like the discussions. It is interesting to me how the different states have handled it and why they have handled matters that way. Alabama has a "wet comb" law, meaning that you may not bring bees on comb into the state of Alabama. I live 20 miles from the Florida line and cannot buy nucs from some nuc producers in Florida. I can, however, buy queens.

Last year, there was an incident in north Alabama where the State Apiarist found AHB in an apiary that sat right on the Alabama/Tennessee line. Turns out that the Beek ordered queens from Texas and the queen breeder sent him some AHB queens. They destroyed the hives and are now monitoring with swarm traps in a large perimeter around the apiary.

So we have a law ("wet comb") that was put into place many years ago to prevent the spread of things like AFB, but our laws allow AHB queens to walk through the door. I am not casting blame or dispersions on that -- or even suggesting it needs to be "fixed." I just find it interesting what issues got "hot" and when, and how legislatures react. 

The long and short of this is that beekeepers in most states will likely never have enough lobby power to push legislation that will keep up with the changing issues surrounding beekeeping. Nobody votes exclusively "Pro-Bee" and I have not seen any Model Rules promulgated by beekeepers for adoption in multiple states. So it becomes a patchwork.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

laws are a funny thing 
The state bee program went tits up in 1990 (it is still there in theroy, just no $$ to do anything), as such the laws haven't been up dated from the early days of Varroa, by law they "could" still quarantine and burn varroa infected hives...lol


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

How cold did it get? If it warms up, you may have more angry bees than you expect.


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## Tighty_Whitey (Jan 18, 2017)

mike17l said:


> If you think those were africanized, please don't toy with the idea of doing bees. especially if you make questionable decisions trespassing onto others property. You are lucky you were not shot. You cannot tell if bees are Africanized by temperament. An Africanized label requires lab analysis. Stings when you crush a bee will happen by any bee, Africanized or not.


Actually I never "trespassed" on the property. I stood on one side of the fence (which is county property) and I reached through the fence and pulled the TV sets out to the other side. What I COULD have done is reported him to Code Compliance and given him legal troubles that way, but that didn't see very neighborly to me. Yesterday I put his crappy, 20 year-old fence back together using 1 5/8 coarse drywall screws instead of the galvanized nails that had worked themselves loose. So it's his fence is in better condition than it was, I'm going to dispose of the two junked TV's for him (another favor) and both the neighbor, his tenant and all the other people in the surrounding area are better off since I got rid of the overly-aggressive, ruthless and genetically programed for violence bees.

The last time I did this (broke-out the fence and got the bees removed), the neighbor bought me a brand-new 14" Poulan chain saw as a "thank you" gift. This is the same neighbor that lent me his bee suit, in order to go after this 2nd hive.

I meet a LOT of neighbors. Back in the day, I used to knock on doors, talk to people, propose action, talk, discuss, debate, etc... attempting to achieve some kind of consensus and what I learned was that if you ask people their opinions, every single person will give you 101 reasons why you CAN'T, SHOULDN'T etc... "do something". At the end of this consensus-building process you are left with a bunch of neighbors who all feel qualified to tell you what to do, but none of whom will actually lift a finger to actually do it. None of them want to do what you (meaning me) wants to do, and none of them agree on an alternative course of action. At the end of the process, the situation boils down to 

"Do I still want to do what I want to do, or do I want to do nothing at all?"

And I look at these inactive, opinionated, do-nothing neighbors and decide that whatever I do, I don't want to be like them, so I do whatever it was that I wanted to do.

After a few iterations of this, eventually I learned not to waste time talking to the neighbors. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing without their permission. They all know me. They know I don't care what they think about me. What I think about them is what's important. I'm the guy that gets things done. They're the people in my way. Usually the loudest yappers are the least willing to do anything. And after the action is done (whatever it is), they're still yapping. That's what they do. That's ALL they do.

Also I'm not going to let the "get shot" comment go by. Histrionics. Some guy (the guy that has been mowing and maintaining the ditch behind your house for the last 4 years) has pulling your fence apart with a hammer and a nail bar, with the obvious intent of doing "something" about the bees that have been growing for the last 6 months or more. In broad daylight.

No one is getting shot in that situation. That's just retarded fear mongering for the purpose of fluffing up your online sense of self-importance. I also think your whole "you can't judge a bee by it's aggressiveness" line is also BS. It sounds like standard issue Leftist claptrap I've been listening to for the last 40 years. "Ignore your own personal perceptions and experiences. Let some central authority in some far away place tell you what the REAL reality is."

The "real reality" is that those bees are dead, there's about 4 gallons of honey in my kitchen, the neighbor's TV sets are gone, his fence is in better condition than it was when I started, and I'm totally unconcerned about the yapping opinions of people that stand around and watch while other men are actually doing something constructive.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

sr4440 said:


> No, I didn't "assume it". I just stated that it was illegal for him to sell it in Texas. The reason I stated the law, was if that was his plan, he was going to run afoul of the law in TEXAS. (he has 60 lbs.)
> 
> Joe


A very concise definition of your assumption. "if"


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

Tighty_Whitey said:


> Actually I never "trespassed" on the property. I stood on one side of the fence (which is county property) and I reached through the fence and pulled the TV sets out to the other side. What I COULD have done is reported him to Code Compliance and given him legal troubles that way, but that didn't see very neighborly to me. Yesterday I put his crappy, 20 year-old fence back together using 1 5/8 coarse drywall screws instead of the galvanized nails that had worked themselves loose. So it's his fence is in better condition than it was, I'm going to dispose of the two junked TV's for him (another favor) and both the neighbor, his tenant and all the other people in the surrounding area are better off since I got rid of the overly-aggressive, ruthless and genetically programed for violence bees.
> 
> The last time I did this (broke-out the fence and got the bees removed), the neighbor bought me a brand-new 14" Poulan chain saw as a "thank you" gift. This is the same neighbor that lent me his bee suit, in order to go after this 2nd hive.
> 
> ...


TW, I think you got lucky. some people can be very possessive of their junk. It may be junk, but it still belongs to them. Some people are very possessive of their fences, also. "Retarded fear mongering". Really? What if that drunk neighbor had caught you while he was drunk and in a foul mood while you were breaking and entering and taking his junk without his permission? People have been shot for much less of a transgression!

It is not your responsibility, nor the neighbors', to "do something" if it means taking the law into your own hands via theft and trespass. IMO, this was a much greater violation of law and order than the assumed sale of questionable honey.


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## mike17l (Jun 22, 2012)

Hops Brewster said:


> TW, I think you got lucky. some people can be very possessive of their junk. It may be junk, but it still belongs to them. Some people are very possessive of their fences, also. "Retarded fear mongering". Really? What if that drunk neighbor had caught you while he was drunk and in a foul mood while you were breaking and entering and taking his junk without his permission? People have been shot for much less of a transgression!
> 
> It is not your responsibility, nor the neighbors', to "do something" if it means taking the law into your own hands via theft and trespass. IMO, this was a much greater violation of law and order than the assumed sale of questionable honey.


Nail on the head!


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## Tighty_Whitey (Jan 18, 2017)

Hops Brewster said:


> What if that drunk neighbor had caught you while he was drunk and in a foul mood while you were breaking and entering and taking his junk without his permission? People have been shot for much less of a transgression!


We call this hand-wringing and pearl-clutching. OH NOES! (In case you haven't noticed, there's a revolution in progress.)

That drunken neighbor isn't the threat. *I* am "the threat". He has far more to worry about me, than I have to worry about him. It's always critically important to make certain you understand who the most dangerous element in the equation is, and it's not him.

Here's what happened on December 26th. This is the west side of the ditch from my house. The genetically-programmed-for-violence African Bees (who just want a hand-up and not a hand-out) are about 45 degrees and 100 feet to the east (left of the camera) from where this video was taken.

It's better to live on your feet than to die on your knees.

https://youtu.be/2Du5EDGrQQA


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Rough neighborhood. The AHBs probably fit right in. I think you got the quote backwards. I always heard it as better to die on your feet than live on your knees, but your way works too. Depends on just how BA you are!


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## roddo27846 (Apr 10, 2017)

Thanks Nancy -- I thought I was going to explode, then you saved the day.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

Tighty_Whitey said:


> We call this hand-wringing and pearl-clutching. OH NOES! (In case you haven't noticed, there's a revolution in progress.)
> 
> That drunken neighbor isn't the threat. *I* am "the threat". He has far more to worry about me, than I have to worry about him. It's always critically important to make certain you understand who the most dangerous element in the equation is, and it's not him.
> 
> ...


hand wringing? Being wary of the unpredictable nature of a drunk is not fear, my friend. It is wisdom. I am certainly capable of defending myself, but I do not go looking for trouble. I have seen too many drunks get violent for little or no reason to be lulled into believing otherwise.
Criminal behavior is not justified just because you believe you are 'badder' than your neighbor. There are laws, even in Texas, that address the issue of AHB colonies. A good citizen will let the law handle it. 
There are also laws that address the issue of theft of private property and trespass. 

Blustering about how dangerous you are does not justify your actions. And just because one neighbor allowed you to do these things does not mean that they will all give you the same break.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

http://newsok.com/article/3490260 The shooter told the worker he could not dig a ditch across his property. When the worker informed the shooter he had a signed easement the shooter shot the worker and then the Colonel who had stopped by to talk.

I didn't know the worker but I did know Colonel Paluso. He was a nice man. Two innocent men lost their lives due to the unpredictable nature of humans.

Alex


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

http://newsok.com/article/3490260 The shooter told the worker he could not dig a ditch across his property. When the worker informed the shooter he had a signed easement the shooter shot the worker and then the Colonel who had stopped by to talk.

I didn't know the worker but I did know Colonel Paluso. He was a nice man. Two innocent men lost their lives due to the unpredictable nature of humans.

Alex


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