# Warree TBH confusion



## Pamlar

I am confused on how the warree works. I have read many articles on them and they all state that the bees start on the top box and work down...later the articles tell you that when you collect honey, you collect it from the top down. Wouldn't the top box be where the brood is? Maybe I'm just having a
mental block:s Thanks for any info to straighten me out.
Pamlar


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## bigbearomaha

my advice to you is to download Abbe Emile Warre's book "The People's Hive" and get it straight from the horses mouth.

in summary, and please do download the book and get the full story...

The first two boxes are those which the swarm or shaken bees are put into.

after the bees build their comb in the two boxes, additional boxes are added underneath the stack. (usually about 2 or 3 though if a very healthy colony and very good season is predicted, sometimes more boxes).

over the season, the bess draw the combs in the lower boxes and as trhey would in a 'natural' vertical hive, the brood area is moved to the bottom most area leaving the comb in the upper most boxes to be back-filled with honey.

At the end of the summer/beginning of fall, the top most boxes, now hopefully packed with honey can be harvested and the bottom two boxes house the brood nest and winter honey stores.

That's it in a nutshell.

There is a lot more detailed and specific information in his book though.


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## greengecko

Here is a link to the best source for beekeeping with Warré hives.

http://warre.biobees.com/index.html


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## Michael Bush

Bees always build from the top down. The brood nest always moves from the top down. The honey is always stored above the brood. So as the hive progresses the brood nest moves down and the honey get's put overhead. This is how they live in a tree and I would assume how a Warre would work since you keep adding the space to the bottom.


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## jjt42

I haven't had a chance to read Warre's book yet (it's on my winter reading list), but from what I have read about Warre hives, here's a question I've had that I was hoping somebody could help me with.

When people refer to keeping bees in Warre hives, are they referring to the specific dimensions of the Warre boxes, or to the production techniques he has outlined? Other then the smaller dimensions of the boxes, and the inclusion of the moisture "quilt" on top of the hive, is there anything different about his equipment that makes it a "Warre hive"? 

From what I've read, I've been pretty intrigued by the technical aspects of Warre beekeeping, but I have very little desire to invest in even more "off-sized" equipment. Can I just run foundationless medium Lang boxes according to the Warre methods? If so, should I build a quilted box in a medium box to mimic his designs. Should I use screened bottom boards? And do I need to convert to top bars, or can I use foundationless frames?


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## Adam Foster Collins

jjt42 said:


> ...I have very little desire to invest in even more "off-sized" equipment. Can I just run foundationless medium Lang boxes according to the Warre methods? If so, should I build a quilted box in a medium box to mimic his designs. ...



This is just what my Dad's planning to do in the coming year, but with full-sized Lang boxes. Just because he has a lot of that gear already.

Adam


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## bigbearomaha

Warre designed the size of the hive boxes to keep the size similar to a natural void they would find in a tree. It's his contention that the smaller size, the volume, better maintains heat and environment in the hive.

So technically, it is the equipment and the methods. having said that...

Some time back, Tom Seely and Roger Morse investigated natural tree void sizes and volumes. they concluded that a "typical" tree nest was 30 liters or 1830.712 c.i. or 1.059 cubic feet to 60 liters or 3661.425 c.i. or 2.119 cubic feet

the volume of a warre box is approx 1153.384c.i or .667 cubic feet. 2 warre boxes = 1.335 cubic feet 

the volume of a 10 frame Lang deep box is about 2300 c.i or 1.331 cubic feet. 2 deep = 2.662 cubic feet

interestingly, the volume of a 5 frame Nuc box is 1308.398 c.i. or 0.757 cubic feet. 2 5frame lang nuc = 1.514 cubic feet

notice that the volume of the 5 frame nuc box and the warre box isn't all that far apart.

where the warre box is square, the nuc box is rectangular.

for myself, I have been spending the last few months and am going into next season using a warre-Nuc modified hive with warre methods. 

This takes advantage of mass produced and standardized parts that roughly fit into Warre's intentions.

That's how I do it anyway.

Big Bear


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## greengecko

jjt42 said:


> I haven't had a chance to read Warre's book yet (it's on my winter reading list), but from what I have read about Warre hives, here's a question I've had that I was hoping somebody could help me with.
> 
> When people refer to keeping bees in Warre hives, are they referring to the specific dimensions of the Warre boxes, or to the production techniques he has outlined? Other then the smaller dimensions of the boxes, and the inclusion of the moisture "quilt" on top of the hive, is there anything different about his equipment that makes it a "Warre hive"?
> 
> From what I've read, I've been pretty intrigued by the technical aspects of Warre beekeeping, but I have very little desire to invest in even more "off-sized" equipment. Can I just run foundationless medium Lang boxes according to the Warre methods? If so, should I build a quilted box in a medium box to mimic his designs. Should I use screened bottom boards? And do I need to convert to top bars, or can I use foundationless frames?



The basic method begins with bees placed into two Warré hive boxes setting on a floor or base and covered with an insulating quilt box and roof assembly. The bees build natural comb in the topmost hive box and extend downwards into additional hive boxes added underneath (nadiring) according to foraging conditions and the needs of the colony. Additional hive boxes can be added ahead of the demand for space. 

The Warré hive is a vertical tiered top-bar hive using no frames, foundation or separation barriers. Natural comb is fixed to the hive box walls at the side and the top-bars, forming cul-de-sacs to retain the germ-free nest scent and heat that enables healthy colonies capable of productivity without intervention. The winter cluster is surrounded, above and at the sides, by their own stores which remain digestible through a gentle inflow of heat from the nest and forming a protective cushion of warmth for the bees.

As brood vacates cells at the top of the nest they are filled with honey. The top hive box can be removed after each summer flow to harvest honey. Each spring an additional hive box is added in anticipation of the spring buildup. The upward rotation of hive boxes allows the wax to be renewed each year. 

A very important feature of the Warré method is that the hive is opened in the strict sense only once a year during harvest. The addition of hive boxes underneath the colony does not necessitate a hive opening. During this time the nest scent and heat are not released. 

Most modern experience with the Warré hive resides in France and Belgium with some in Germany, Switzerland and Austria. Its popularity is increasing in the UK, USA, and Canada following the English translation of L'Apiculture por Tous or Beekeeping for All by Pat Cheney and David Heaf in 2007.

However, there are several ways standard Langstroth equipment can be modified to include several features of the Warré Hive. The hive can be managed as a standard Langstroth Hive, a Warré Hive or a compromise of the two methods as desired.

One such method is described here:

Langstroth/Warré Hybrid Hive


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## iwombat

bigbearomaha said:


> Some time back, Tom Seely and Roger Morse investigated natural tree void sizes and volumes. they concluded that a "typical" tree nest was 30 liters or 1830.712 c.i. or 1.059 cubic feet to 60 liters or 3661.425 c.i. or 2.119 cubic feet
> ...
> 
> the volume of a 10 frame Lang deep box is about 2300 c.i or 1.331 cubic feet. 2 deep = 2.662 cubic feet


the volume of a 8-frame lang deep box is about 1900 ci or approx 1.1 cubic feet. 2 deep - 2.2 cubic feet.

Hrm . . .


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## bigbearomaha

The only thing I would say in terms of the form related to volume aspect is that warre preferred smaller length and width and increase the depth if necessary to keep the cluster from being spread out or having too much dead air space immediately surrounding the cluster. So he discusses in his book anyway.


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## jjt42

It sounds like in the interest of not building more off-size equipment, I should be OK using 10-frame medium langs (2 mediums = 1.6 cubic feet). I currently use all mediums in my operation, and would like to stick with them for simplicity.

The quilt boxes sound like a good idea- I'll probably build something to replicate Warre's design. 

So the question remains- top bars or foundationless frames?

Thanks bigbearomaha and greengecko for your replies...it sounds like there is a lot more to both Warre's equipment and techniques that I need to read up on. I've moved his book to the top of my reading pile!


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## bigbearomaha

depends on whether you plan to move the hives at all or keep them in one spot. Warre calls for top bars. In my own permanent placed ktbhs and warre-nucs, I use top bars. in my warre-nucs that I transport, I use foundationless frames.


got to experiment and use what works best for you. good luck and...

enjoy the bees.


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## Beethinking

I've not had any issues transporting my Warre hives that are only using top bars. With foundationless frames you'd be even better off for moving -- or half frames like Gilles Denis: http://warre.biobees.com/denis.htm

Cheers,
Matt


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## buckbee

IMO systems work best when used as they were designed to be used. Langstroth designed his hive to be manged in a particular way for a particular purpose, and so did Emile Warre: two different hives and two very different systems. 

Warre certainly conducted a huge amount of trial-and-error research on hundreds of hives and many different shapes and sizes before he settled on his final design, and to think that you can just choose any old box at random (which, incidentally, is pretty much what Langstroth did) and have his system work in the same way rather negates the work he did. Every step in his system is reasoned and consistent, and if you read his book, you will understand how all the pieces fit together.

I'm not suggesting that you don't experiment, but don't dismiss all the experimentation that has already been done.


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## bigbearomaha

luckily, no one here is talking about using just any old box at random.

It's been over 50 years since Warre designed his hive and the building materials available now are not the same as those available to him then.

Warre, you will I am sure agree, described in his book multiple ways of managing and using a variety of equipment in his system. There is plenty within the Warre book to experiment with.

To wit, it is important to read his book.


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## Oldtimer

My opinion only, I wouldn't try running Langstroth boxes like a Warre, ie, adding new supers underneath. Langstroth boxes are much bigger, and it will take a lot for the bees to start moving downwards, will happen eventually but could be a long process. 

Warre boxes, being a lot smaller, induce the bees to move downwards as they need the room, plus it's easier and more "comfortable" for them to work into a box underneath.

With Langstroth equipment results will be better adding boxes on top.


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## beez2010

We have spent hundreds of hours developing and maintaining an informative website to help people understand Warre hives and his methods. Our site contains dozens of pages of very useful information, much of which has been compiled from reading Warre's book over and over again. We appreciate what David Heaf did when he translated Beekeeping for All, but having read through the book multiple times, I can tell you that alot has been lost or misconstrued in translation. We have clarified much of what is written in it, so that the information is much more useful and clear.

Don't take my word for it though, check it out yourself. You don't have to buy anything from us. You can spend as much time on the site as you wish for free. There are also some good videos that help clear up alot of questions and an FAQ page as well. Enjoy. 

Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## buckbee

Chris - it looks like there is a lot of good stuff on your site, and I will certainly do some reading there, but I am a little disappointed to see that you have been just a little disrepectful to the old Abbé by omitting throughout the é (e with acute accent) from both his name and title. It is not there for decoration, but is integral to the way his name was pronounced: without it, I suspect he is just 'Emily Warr' to most Americans!

The correct version: *Abbé Ēmile Warré*


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## beez2010

Buckbee,

If you could tell me how to put the accent mark on there with an American keyboard I would be very grateful. If it is simple I'll be embarrassed. I haven't been able to figure it out. Maybe I haven't tried hard enough??

Chris


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## Oldtimer

Beez I can tell you one easy way, cut how Buckbee wrote it, and paste, works fine.

No French keyboard required!

Just curious what are the translation errors?


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## buckbee

In my WP (Open Office) you go to Insert, Special Character, and then choose from the chart. A universal search/replace should take care of it.

If you are using an HTML editor, use this page to get your codes - http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/web/codehtml.html

I hope that helps!


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## Beethinking

Or you can hit "control"+" ' " and then type e or E and it should add the accent. 

Matt


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## beez2010

OK. Thanks everyone. I did not omit the accent mark due to disrespect or laziness. I will fix this as time permits. If it helps stop people from calling the hives Ware (like wear) hives when they call me I will be very happy. 

Oldtimer, when I talk about translation issues I don't think that they can be called errors, but rather that some things just don't come across as understandable when they are translated directly, as they often are when translation is done by a computer program. I spent years re-writing automobile service manuals that had been translated to english from japanese by computer, so that technicians could understand them. 

Also, some words can be translated to two or more words depending on their context. Computers do not have the ability to determine context, so they simply translate to the most commonly used word. Read the book and you'll understand after you find yourself reading the same paragraphs over and over again. You realize what things mean eventually and then you see that if the text had been translated better you would have gotten it the first time.

The best translating is done by a human translator who's first language is the language that he or she is translating _to_.

Chris


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## Oldtimer

Hmm.... Well I can't do that cos I don't speak French. But I guess if it's just a computer translation, a beekeeper ought to be able to sort out obvious errors.

And Cacklewack thanks for that! I've been caught with not being able to do that myself & that way is so easy!!

Also I have to ask, you into chickens?


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## buckbee

Oh, and just to add to the confusion, his name was almost certainly pronounced 'Vaarey'.


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## beez2010

Well, as usual, Old Timer, you and I are having trouble communicating. I don't speak French either, which is why clarifying the book has been as much work as it has. The title of the book is "Beekeeping for All", not "Beekeeping for Beekeepers" and many who read it are not experienced in beekeeping. Many people who think they might want to keep bees using the Warre method may not get the information that they need to feel comfortable by reading the book, so they may give up the idea. What I have done is try to help these folks. They can build their own hives or buy from someone else if they want to. The information is free and they don't have to buy anything from me to get it.

I don't expect you to appreciate any work that I have done. Why I tried to be polite and answer your question is beyond me. I guess I am just a sucker for your abuse. Please don't ask me anything else, OK?

Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## Oldtimer

OK, well i've been through the thread wondering what I've done wrong. Can't find anything. But as per your wish i won't ask.









How about i assure you no abuse was intended and we move on from here?


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## Oldtimer

Oh, if it's the chicken thing, that question was to Cacklewack, not you Beez.

Just curious as we have and enjoy some chickens. It was not an insult to you Beez.


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## Adam Foster Collins

buckbee said:


> Oh, and just to add to the confusion, his name was almost certainly pronounced 'Vaarey'.


Hey Phil,

Where does the 'v' pronunciation come from? Was Warré French?

Adam


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## Beethinking

Oldtimer,

If by into chickens you mean, "do you keep chickens?" then no I don't.  However, it seems that MANY of my friends and customers keep chickens as well as bees, so I end up spending a significant amount of time around them...and I get to reap the benefits!

Best,
Matt


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## Oldtimer

Yes that's what I meant. I thought, Cacklewack, yes, surely. 

I'm not a sentimental type guy but not so long ago my wife got some chickens, and they are very friendly and always glad to see us. I can see how some people get as attached to them as some people do to their bees.


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## buckbee

Adam Foster Collins said:


> Hey Phil,
> 
> Where does the 'v' pronunciation come from? Was Warré French?
> 
> Adam


Yes.


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