# I'd've been better off doing NOTHING from day one



## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

I am 100% sure that both my hives would be better off today if in April I had installed the two 3# packages/queens in two of my four hives, put the lids on the hives, and not looked at them again until next spring. 
As it is now, thanks to my too many examples of "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" stupidity, both my queens are dead, half of the combs collapsed, hive beetles' larva by the thousands in three combs that I burned, and a filthy mess of dead bees that I had to clean up, ... ad nauseam. Yesterday I ordered two more mated Minnesota Hygienic Italian queens; they will go out tomorrow UPS overnight delivery. Hopefully, the bees will recover somehow. Two things I will do, try to eliminate hive beetles and feed them all the sugar water they'll take, but that's it. Hope they're still alive next year. 
I also ordered two 3# packages/queens for my other two empty hives; they will (hopefully) arrive April 1, 2013. MAYBE I've learned my lesson... whatever that is.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

This (as well as life in general) is all a learning process from day one to the last day.
You LEARNED whether you realize it or not. That is important.
I left mine go after a few inspections. I inspect once a month now. 
Although mine was from a very large swarm, maybe 6 lbs. They had a real good start.
Don't beat youself up about it too much.


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

Mr.Beeman said:


> This (as well as life in general) is all a learning process from day one to the last day.
> You LEARNED whether you realize it or not. That is important.
> I left mine go after a few inspections. I inspect once a month now.
> Although mine was from a very large swarm, maybe 6 lbs. They had a real good start.
> Don't beat youself up about it too much.


I like your "...inspect once a month..." philosophy. We who have top bar hives might think of what YOU did and consider what would have happened to your 6# swarm and our new packages of bees if they had first entered a wall of an old, empty building. Betcha they'd've been there for years if nobody knew that they were there.


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## SRBrooks (Jun 24, 2012)

Dear Hoosier:
I'm confused, though. If you were inspecting that often, didn't you see signs along the way that things were going so south? Or are you saying, looking back, that every time you intervened you made the wrong decision? Please elaborate.


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

SRBrooks said:


> Dear Hoosier:
> I'm confused, though. If you were inspecting that often, didn't you see signs along the way that things were going so south? Or are you saying, looking back, that every time you intervened you made the wrong decision? Please elaborate.


Yes, I'd worried quite a while about the one weak hive. The grand finale was when I moved bars with sealed brood from the strong hive to the weak one and also inspecting all the combs looking for the queens in both hives. This was done on a very hot day, and combs collapsed in both hives... falling like dominoes. As far as I could tell, there was not any newly-laid eggs in either hive then or this weekend, but I'd bet money that there were newly-laid eggs that I just didn't see in the strong hive before the combs collapsed.
ETA I'm pretty sure that the queen was dead for some reason in the weak hive and that the other one was killed when the combs collapsed.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Sorry about the loss, Hoosier. I do feel bad for you. I haven't had anything like that happen to me in 3 years of beekeeping.


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

Thanks, westernbeekeeper. It really doesn't have me down though; it's best that I learned a good lesson early. If everything goes awry this year/winter, I will undoubtedly have a much better second year with four all-new hives because of this year's bad experience(s). I just have to accept that 99.99% of the time they can do very well without me. :-(


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## Che Guebuddha (Feb 4, 2012)

This is my philosophy,
Low Interference Hive. The bees do what they are best to do and that is to Bee a Bee 

I can see throuhg the window that they started building cross combs and Im seriously considering not to open their condenser space which they balance so nicely to keep the brood healthy and parasites at bay (high humidity, acid fumes from honey production, queen scent, right CO2 and Temperature levels).

It seems as if frames would help make a quick inspection especially when making a split or checking if the newly emerged Queen have started laying eggs. This is the issue Im having


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

Che Guebuddha said:


> This is my philosophy,
> Low Interference Hive. The bees do what they are best to do and that is to Bee a Bee
> I can see throuhg the window that they started building cross combs and Im seriously considering not to open their condenser space which they balance so nicely to keep the brood healthy and parasites at bay (high humidity, acid fumes from honey production, queen scent, right CO2 and Temperature levels).
> It seems as if frames would help make a quick inspection especially when making a split or checking if the newly emerged Queen have started laying eggs. This is the issue Im having










Che, that's my philosophy from now on... Low Interference Hive.
Ideally, one can/should interfere only at the very beginning to make sure that the 1 3/8-inch bars for the new brood chamber start off straight. My four hives (two have never been used) each have 17 stained brood chamber bars and 14 unstained 1 1/2-inch bars for honey storage. 
My plan for the two empty hives was to "make a split" or catch one of my own swarms from the two hives with bees, and that would be a good idea *IF* I were working with Langstroth hives with easily moved bars/frames. 
"A little knowlege is a dangerous thing." From now on I will not "... open up the brood chamber..." or plan to "...make a split..." because a 3# package w/queen does not cost that much if one does not want to wait for a natural swarm to occur. After all, not many hobbyists have more than one to four top bar hives; all they (I) need are one or two tbh swarm traps if they (I) want to expand. Personally, I wish that I had bought four 3# packages last spring to begin with, and to hell with all that "maybe it'll work" mess that does work with Langstroth hives but only makes innumerable problems for a tbh natural way for the bees to live and for the "bee keeper" to help them live the way they would in a tree or walls of a building. 
From now on, my efforts will only include feeding them in emergencies and permanently getting rid of all small hive beetles that arrived from the South with my two packages this spring.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Unless you had someone elses hives to work, how would you learn anything about what goes on in a hive and how to handle the bees and equipment. Too bad your two queens are dead. I hope you have better luck w/ the two queens you ordered. Be prepared for the bees not accepting them. Chances are they won't.


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Unless you had someone elses hives to work, how would you learn anything about what goes on in a hive and how to handle the bees and equipment. Too bad your two queens are dead. I hope you have better luck w/ the two queens you ordered. Be prepared for the bees not accepting them. *Chances are they won't.*


Thanks, but why on Earth do you think "...Chances are they won't"? From everything that I've ever read, when a queen shows up in a hive that's lost their queen, the bees become so overjoyed that you'd think it was Christmas.


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

My wife and I just now went out to check the condition of the especially weak hive before the queens are delivered tomorrow. *It's lucky that we did*; five bars/combs were crawling with small hive beetle larva, and one was slimed. Those five bars and shb larva are now in the freezer. I'll wait a few days before I put them back in to (hopefully) have the bees clean them up. 
All four of my hives have top entrances on one end. At the bottom of each end I have removable 5 1/2" X 1 1/2" doors; they really came in handy. I ran water from a hose through one end to clean out all the dead bee larvae the shb larva had replaced plus the hundreds of shb larva that were on the bottom floor board... disgusting. We caught all of that crap in a plastic bag and put the bag in the freezer along with the box holding the five bars/comb with shb larva.


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## Dunham Bee Farm (May 12, 2012)

Makes my heart sink to hear of your losses... I lost one colony early this spring due to the girls deciding to swarm (which I didn't catch) 2 days after the queen was released. Tried requeening with a laying worker, didn't work, learned volumes throughout this first year as a beekeeper. I wish you all the best with the queens!


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

If you recently killed your queens they will more than likely have made a new one from available eggs or young larvae. If there is a virgin queen in the hive anything you introduce will be killed.


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

Dunham Bee Farm said:


> Makes my heart sink to hear of your losses... I lost one colony early this spring due to the girls deciding to swarm (which I didn't catch) 2 days after the queen was released. Tried requeening with a laying worker, didn't work, learned volumes throughout this first year as a beekeeper. I wish you all the best with the queens!


Thanks, Dunham Bee Farm, sounds like you've been there too. Ironically I was just out looking at the better-condition hive and noticed they were bringing in pollen... made me think... hmmm, possibly I have a laying worker. Ah, wellllllll, there's always next year...  THE BEST LAID PLANS OF MICE AND MEN GO OFT' AWRY.


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

jonathan said:


> If you recently killed your queens they will more than likely have made a new one from available eggs or young larvae. If there is a virgin queen in the hive anything you introduce will be killed.


Jonathan, I was hoping that there would be eggs or young larvae, but my wife and I checked both hives closely; there were none of either. BUT, I just saw the best hive's bees bringing in pollen; that makes me think I have a laying worker. Ya never know though, there just MIGHT be a virgin queen in there now, and that'd be okay and much better than a laying worker. I'll lechano.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Remember to leave the queens caged up in the hive for three days or so. I know you are aware of this, but just wanted to make sure! lol


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hoosier said:


> Thanks, but why on Earth do you think "...Chances are they won't"? From everything that I've ever read, when a queen shows up in a hive that's lost their queen, the bees become so overjoyed that you'd think it was Christmas.


Statistically, even when nucs are made, a certain percentage of queens are not accepted. Ten to 25% is not uncommon. In your case, your bees have been w/out a queen for long enough that they may well have workers who have started laying eggs. In that case, your bees "think" they have a queen. So, any queen you install will be killed, balled by the bees.

How long have your bees been queenless, as far as you can tell? What's your best guess?

If I were you, and had access to frames of brood, I would put two frames of capped brood and one frame of open brood w/ eggs into each of these hives, letting them raise their own queen. Then you wouldn't waste your money trying to install a queen in your hives. That's what I would do.


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

Last year I put two three pound packages in hives with built out comb.

Two weeks later I found a half dozen swarm cells in my only survivor from the winter before and split into two other deeps.

Did near nothing for any of them.

The packages died. The splits made honey and their offspring replaced the packages.

I'm thinking dice are as good as the best books.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, but what can dice tell you?


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## Ben Franklin (May 3, 2011)

After 40 plus years of farming and beekeeping I find the dice tell me only to try again. I have read all the books,,followed all the leads and tips. Some work for me and others don't. Even with everything going great there is always something to slip you up.


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Statistically, even when nucs are made, a certain percentage of queens are not accepted. Ten to 25% is not uncommon. In your case, your bees have been w/out a queen for long enough that they may well have workers who have started laying eggs. In that case, your bees "think" they have a queen. So, any queen you install will be killed, balled by the bees.
> 
> How long have your bees been queenless, as far as you can tell? What's your best guess?
> 
> If I were you, and had access to frames of brood, I would put two frames of capped brood and one frame of open brood w/ eggs into each of these hives, letting them raise their own queen. Then you wouldn't waste your money trying to install a queen in your hives. That's what I would do.


sqkcrk, when I replied to your last post, I was 99.99% sure that all the "open brood w/eggs" were destroyed along with both queens when all those combs collapsed. Since my last reply to you, I saw bees carrying in POLLEN; and to me, like you, I think that I am now in one mell of hess... having working layers in BOTH hives. On top of that, I learned this morning that my queens were shipped today rather than yesterday because the seller's area was having severe storms yesterday. The queens will arrive tomorrow, and like you said, they will probably be killed by the bees, i.e., both of my hives are probably up **** creek and are destined to die off. @#$%^&*()_)(*&^%$# Oh, well, c'est la vie. There's always NEXT YEAR!


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

Ben Franklin said:


> After 40 plus years of farming and beekeeping I find the dice tell me only to try again. I have read all the books,,followed all the leads and tips. Some work for me and others don't. Even with everything going great there is always something to slip you up.


I.e., "The best laid plans of mice and men go oft' awry."


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Yeah, but what can dice tell you?


sqkcrk, right now the dice are telling me that my ass is grass and laying workers are the lawnmower.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You have dice for that?


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

So far so good for both hives. The two queens arrived yesterday morning, a day late because USPS is totally unreliable. I put their cages on the bottom board in the two hives, and so far neither has been balled; in fact they each have a fan club all around and on them... hopefully feeding them and recognizing them as their new queens. I'll check tomorrow to see if they've been released; if so, I'll start looking for lots of pollen on legs out front. Hope springs eternal.

ETA At 9:15 A. M. today, Friday, both HRM's are alive and well.


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

I've no idea now as to how/where my hives' condition(s) stand. Today, day three, I could see that I would have to release the queens myself. They were both alive, but the candy keeping them locked in was nowhere near gone. I could see that I would have to remove the cork on the other end... no matter what happened:

Hive one (strong hive):
All the caged helpers had been killed; only the queen was still alive. I opened up the cage, could not see what happened to the queen or where she went.
Hive five (weak hive): All the caged helpers were alive. I opened up the exit, and the hive bees killed them one at a time as they exited. I could not see what happened to the queen or where she went.

Looks like Drone City here we come!


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

Anne and I went looking through all the combs this evening, and in the weaker hive, right up by the front, top entrance, there she was, HRM. We started on the strongest hive to look for the queen there, but there were too many fragile combs being made that caused us to stop. If I don't see a lot of pollen going in soon, I'll give them a bar of new brood from the weaker hive so that they can make themselves a queen.
...........ALL'S WELL THAT ENDS WELL........ Mmmmmmmmm, gotta buy about a hundred pounds of sugar real fast.


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

Wooooooooooooooooo Hoooooooooooooo Lots and lots of bees from *both* hives are bringing in pollen this morning.


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## mrobinson (Jan 20, 2012)

I find it to be very enjoyable to be around my bees ... nice place to read a book, even though you do have the occasional "helper" (can bees read?). This also takes advantage of the fact that your eyes and brain are naturally sensitive to change. It's almost an intuition: _"Something's different ... I can't quite put my finger on it yet, but ..."_ When that intuition happens, follow it. The instincts that helped your ancestors detect a hungry tiger in the woods without exactly knowing why they were suddenly running away as fast as their legs could take them, can help you here.

As you look, maintain a written bee journal. Bring your phone or camera along and just take a few pictures. Look them over now and then. You'll get a sense of how the hive activity ebbs and flows ... and if "that intuition" goes off, follow it. It might turn out to be a false alarm but you'll learn from it anyway. Before intervening, write in your journal what you're thinking about doing and why. Flip back through your journal and see if you notice any patterns; don't just rely on your memory, or your fears.

What you really should avoid doing is, "doing something even though I don't know quite why I'm doing it just because I think that I (or somebody else told me that I) should." Or, "I just want to make sure the girls are okay." In all likelihood the girls _are_ okay, and it may well be that they don't need any intervention of any kind from you. (Or, maybe they _do._ That's the sort of sensibility that you will develop over time with regard to _your_ own hives, and as you volunteer to help other beeks in your area.)


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## crazyseany (May 22, 2010)

Update?


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

And once you get them and install them, LEAVE and don't look at the hive for a month; even if that means someone's hog tying your hands and feet.


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## Maddox65804 (Dec 29, 2011)

Hoosier,

I moved to from Indiana to Missouri about 5 years ago. (Wish I had stayed in INdiana, southwestern Mo is not a great beekeeping place). When I left we had a strong bee organization with plenty of people who would come and visit your hives and help you out. Where are they? I'm sorry for your frustrating experiences. You shouldn't have had to go through this. The poor bees shouldn't have had to go through it either.

The whole account left me wondering why your mentor let them go so far.... ONe of the best ways to learn efficiently is to join the local club and get a mentor. We can only help you with words online. They can be there with hands on advice and even give you supporting brood, frames, queens etc.


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