# Small scale increase plan - "Do-less" queen rearing.



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

You are going to have to go through the entire have at the beginning anyway; if you don't they may swarm before you expect them too and then all your work is lost.

Depending on how many supers you are shaking down into the brood chambers, you may cause all sorts of other problems like over heating, clustering on the outside of the hive etc. Depending on the bees they may not be inclined to produce swarm cells at all.

I say try it and see what happens.


----------



## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Well, I don't know about "shaking" bees from supers into hive bodies, but FatBeeMan does essentially that. He restricts the bees into a smaller space, "forces" them to make swarm cells, and then cuts out the cells he wants.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes, the method is already used, by the likes of the fat bee man.

While it can work, as per Bluegrass it may not be quite as simple as it first seems. Just cramming the bees down will not guarantee queen cells, there will be seasonal variations. During swarming time it should work but as stated, you'd need to be right on top of them to ensure they didn't swarm.

Also, don't do it from the worst queen, why breed from the worst. Do it from the best. If you don't want to break up your good hive, and not having to find the queen is a goal (and it's a good goal), here is an idea. When the cells are ready remove the frames they are on and brush the bees back into the hive. Set up the nucs and put bee shakes and additional brood in from the hive you don't like the queen. 

If you want to leave the worst queen hive functioning with a queen, one suggestion is put an excluder between the two brood boxes of it 5 days before the nucs are to be made up. Then just take bees and brood from the box with no eggs, you will not risk removing the queen.

But I guess all this is adding more layers of complexity (sigh), if the object is absolute simplicity, yes, you would need to break up the same hive that raised the cells.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

It would be my luck that they would put all the cells on one or two frames. The on the spot method would help prevent that outcome though.


----------



## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

Not sure if shaking them out and then putting the supers right back on would cause that much crowding. I would think you would have to leave the supers of for a while. If the queen has only laid eggs on few frames thats the only frames that will have q cells.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

David LaFerney said:


> It would be my luck that they would put all the cells on one or two frames. The on the spot method would help prevent that outcome though.


Ha Ha! Yes that's what would often happen, probably why Don cuts the cells out. I guess cutting them out, would also leave a lot of nooks and crannies in the comb for the bees to easily build more cells, if that hive continued to be used to make more cells.


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

How I envisage this is not by using the queenless emergency method, but rather encouraging the bees to make decent swarm cells on the bottom of the cells - the queen would be present until the splits would be made. So in this case making OTS cuts would not be necessary.
Unemployed nurse bees seem to be a prerequisite for cell building so I'm thinking that shaking them out of the supers and encouraging the crowding would have a desirable effect. I wasn't worried about overcrowding as the bees do a pretty good job if I leave the bottom reducer out and add a ventilated cover.
I use Mann Lake plastic frames and am happy with them so I would not be able to cut out cells. I have noticed that in every case where I have "purely natural" swarming then there have been numerous queen cells on many of these frames. My hives are behind my house so it isn't too hard for me to check on them. 
I wasn't worried about overcrowding as the bees do a pretty good job if I leave the bottom reducer out and add a ventilated cover.
Oldtimer I'm not quite sure why you thought I was considering using a queen I didn't like? However, I entirely agree with you that it has to be timed with the swarming season; I learned to my cost a couple of years ago when I was working on a trap-out that you can't make a queen out of season. 
So by the responses I've seen so far it seems like it's worth a shot so instead of learning the Doolittle method this year I'm going to try the Do-less method on at least one hive. I'll report back as to what happens.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Oldtimer I'm not quite sure why you thought I was considering using a queen I didn't like?


Oh my mistake Adrian, I mis read your first post.


----------



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Adrian, I am assuming you have made a study of OTS at mdasplitter.com I am going to find out if it works myself this spring. One of thing that is attractive to me is keeping a wide base to your gene pool instead of all your splits being from the one or two very best. Obviously, i won't be using any strugglers though. My most productive colony is borderline mean and I was planning on using them up for donor brood on the splits, but they are wintering so very very well, I find my resolve to end that line weakening. Maybe her daughters won't be so testy. I too have my bees on ML plastic frames so i won't be able to just cut out cells like the fatbeeman. I plan to slip in some foundationless as early as I can, but I wonder if they will make them all drone comb. Time will tell and I am just a hobbyist, so I am free to try different things just for the fun of it.


----------



## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

My tweaks/suggestions:

1 Get the bees out of the supers and put them on other hives. YMMV.

2 Take every box with brood and give it it's own top, bottom, and entrance. It doesn't have to be pretty.

3 Watch for the box with "fanners". That's the one with the queen.

So far, this is all shamelessly stolen from jim fischer.

4 What I would do: Try to leave the queen and a little open brood at the original location. Leave enough space for the field bees as they return to that location.

5 Divide the rest of the resources equally(ish) so you end up with hives/nucs that have an abundance of workers and plenty of pollen and carbs(YMMV) and some eggs/very young larvae. Place at a new location near the original hive.

6 Come back when the virgins should be emerged, look for emerged/opened q-cells. Those that have none get added to those that do(or not, YMMV).

7 Check again when there should be a laying queen or utter failure. Failures get combined as you wish...


----------



## masini (Jan 9, 2012)

Usually these methods to produce queens are contaproductive. There is a period no longer increases and this affects colony brood. In addition, these queens are not quality, or in other cases perpetuate the swarming instinct. And I think we beekeepers want this.
Particularly suitable to produce queens by simple decanting or achieve peaceful exchange queens. There are quality and obtaining the desired quality.
I exposed on my site at http://www.miere-bucovina.ro/crestere-matci-in-prezenta-altei-matci.html a method for producing queens amateur beekeeper, the method by which we can obtain quality queens. Just to translate this page with google. It is in Romanian language.


----------

