# Best way to draw small cell on foundationless



## Jayjay (Apr 17, 2015)

I am running mostly PF-125 frames with a few Kelley foundationless thrown in. It seems like everytime I put a foundationless in they draw it out huge for drone comb even if I put it smack middle of the brood nest. Any tips on how I get them to draw it out as small cell brood size?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Let them draw out all the drone comb they want and then they will draw worker. I think that's it.

With foundationless you leave it up to the bees, and sometimes they want drones.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Bees on foundationless draw a much larger proportion of Drone in the FL frames. I have observed this again and again over many years. The FL advocates attack this observation with a lot of hand waving, but it is cold hard reality.

You can use the drone comb for honey supers, but the management required to cull and move individual comb is excessive.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Fortunately at extraction time honey almost jumps out of drone comb. 

Also, a small hive with a young queen is much less likely to build drone comb - so foundationless frames in mating nucs. 

A strong overwintered hive will fill foundationless frames over and over with drone comb during the reproductive season - I use FL frames for mite trapping and as part of my swarm managment, and 90% of it gets filled with drone. Maybe more. But a lot of energy goes into all that drone brood.

Something else you should know is that when they do build foundationless worker comb it probably won't be small cell until you've been doing small cell for a while. Even with small cell plastic foundation they will taper the cells out and you will see that a lot of it won't really be small cell if you look close at it. With wax they will chew out the foundation to remodel it.

Good luck.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

make a nuc and use them for a comb building factory. They want to expand so they make more workers. Overwinterd or otherwise healthy hives want drones so they can reproduce.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

Harley Craig said:


> make a nuc and use them for a comb building factory. They want to expand so they make more workers. Overwinterd or otherwise healthy hives want drones so they can reproduce.


DITTO 
I use all foundationless and it's not as bad a problem as with the beeks that use a mixture of foundationless and foundation, but yes I do have more drone comb than the foundation beeks. I raise my own queens from a strain of bees I like, so it keeps me from having to have drone colonies. I think the mixing of foundationless may keep down a lot of burr comb, they are going to build drone comb somewhere, why not where you designate it. JMO


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## Jayjay (Apr 17, 2015)

Thank you for the responses. I guess my problem was that since I run mostly PF 125 with only some foundationless mixed in, I wasn't giving them enough room for drone comb which is why they kept making it. I'll try the nuc idea while increasing my percentage of foundationless in my mostly PF125 hives.
Thanks!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Put the drone comb on the outside edges and feed in more foundationless.


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## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

I had the same problem until I started using narrow frame spacing in my brood chambers. Once I fit 11 in a 10-Lang box, I get wonderful brood cells that are quite small. I spent a couple of seasons rotating combs with enlarged cells to the sides as honey frames and kept feeding in foundationless. I snapped this photo this morning of a very typical comb I'm getting this year. It really worked once I finally planed down all those ends and let them draw to their hearts' content. Michael's motto is right, it DOES work if you let it.


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## Decebal Tuturici (Aug 17, 2015)

On my first two frame without foundation, they builded same cell size like on foundation sheet - 5.4 mm.
Now ... what?


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

On my first two frame without foundation, they builded same cell size like on foundation sheet - 5.4 mm.
Now ... what?

reply:

That sounds exactly what should have happened.............. If you wanted regression to a smaller cell you should at least use started strips. With just straight foundationless it could take years to get them down smaller. Once regressed then go foundationless and they will copy the cell size they are living on.


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## Decebal Tuturici (Aug 17, 2015)

Roger! 
A little problematic with this in my country. But somewhere in Europe I'll find them.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Foundationless does seem to have an inordinate amount of drone cells. If you start scooting it to the outside and open up your broodnest and insert a foundationless frame I tend to get mostly worker cells built in it, especially if they already have plenty of drones.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

At 1.25" (32mm) spacing you'll have better luck. Once you have enough drone comb in the brood nest you'll have better luck.


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## Decebal Tuturici (Aug 17, 2015)

With this new spacing at 32 mm i began already. Studying this measures i have the surprise that in my country the hoffmann frames are made with one of the largest spacing - 37 mm.
Also in my country the most used insecticide is amitraz as smoke. Stripes with fluvalinate and coumaphos are very expensive here, almost nobody use them. So i think that wax here it is not so contaminated, since amitraz is not so chemically stable, only his derived products are remaining in wax. So, i think that i'll have a good start.
Thanks!


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## Decebal Tuturici (Aug 17, 2015)

First thing that i noticed already is that i have put two frames without foundation in two hives, nucs from this year, and queen already lay eggs in new combs, that are small, under 1/4 frame since now.
In another two hives i put two frames with foundation, they drawn it in just two days, it is true, but not just a single egg there. Foundation that i buy here has a very high procent of paraffine blended in the wax - much profit for the producer.
I am convinced that queen can sense that amount of paraffin, together with other contaminants.


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