# Half my hives dead already!



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

What has been your regimen for controlling varroa mites? That is just out of curiosity. I Have never seen nosema do this but I have never seeen cerana that i know of. Condolences


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would definitely look for signs of Varroa. Little white specs in the brood cells (Varroa feces) and thousands of dead Varroa on the bottom board would indicate that was the problem.


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> I would definitely look for signs of Varroa. Little white specs in the brood cells (Varroa feces) and thousands of dead Varroa on the bottom board would indicate that was the problem.


 Hmmm. Hadn't thought of verroa. These were all new hives started from packages this spring. I will check for verroa tomorrow. Thank you. Anything I can do this late for the other 4 hives?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

You might consider oxalic acid vaporizing for Varroa.
Good luck.


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

Not sure about your location, its common here to remove all liquid feed around the 1st of october and go with dry if we still have to feed. If they keep taking liquid they can't remove the moisture and cap it ,and it can lead to dysentery.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

ctgolfer said:


> I did mite tests in Sept and the mite load was very very lite,


What is your idea of a light mite load? This statement is very subjective


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

honeyshack said:


> What is your idea of a light mite load? This statement is very subjective


In all the hives we tested with powder sugar we found less the 20 mites in each hive after 30 minutes, I contributed this to all being new hives this spring.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

imo that is a high mite load. Those are just the mites on the back, not the ones in the cells getting ready to leave the uncapped brood. Looking at over a 3% infestation. In less than 3 weeks depending on where in the cycle they are will double...to high. Add in pollen stress and from this vantage point without looking at the hive, you have the reason why they died


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## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

ctgolfer said:


> In all the hives we tested with powder sugar we found less the 20 mites in each hiveafter 30 minutes, I contributed this to all being new hives this spring.


I hate to say it but a lot of package bees come loaded with mites, this is a trap a lot of new beekeepers fall into. They don't usually die out though until the second year, unless they're really infested.I'm not saying this is what happened, only a possibility.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I agree with Honeyshack. You have a high mite load and probably non-resistant bees if they came from a package. I would treat the others and pray. You will probably loose the other hives without treating. The bees from the collapsing hives have probably moved to the other hives and increased the mite load in them.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There is no reason to speculate. Look for dead Varroa and Varroa feces. As far as the live ones, do mite counts. Never guess at what you can measure...


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I agree with Mike. More investigation needs to happen. It might be worthwhile taking a sample and sending them off to a lab for analysis for Nosema as well. Hurry before the temps drop below what is feasible for working bees.


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

camero7 said:


> I agree with Honeyshack. You have a high mite load and probably non-resistant bees if they came from a package. I would treat the others and pray. You will probably loose the other hives without treating. The bees from the collapsing hives have probably moved to the other hives and increased the mite load in them.


 Isn't to late to treat for mites? I have the Mite away q stripes here on hand, I didn't use them because my mite load test's were so low. One hive had 17 and the rest were 4-8 mites in early September so I didn't treat. I was told to treat if they were 20+. I was eying your nukes in the "for Sale" section, may have to place an order. Two of the packages were from Hardimens and the other 2 were from Gardners.


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

It is a perfect time of year for oxalic acid dribble.

I just did mine about 2 weeks ago and was impressed with the results.

Add 40 grams of oxalic acid to 1 litre or 1:1 syrup.

Did you go through the hives yet? Did you see any evidence of brood? Did the bees die in one cluster or in smaller multiple clusters? Lots bees or not so much?

Lots of questions and no answers without a good inspection.

We had the coldest mornings of the year in the last couple days. By hives raised brood too late into the year. They went through 30-40 pound of honey in NOVEMBER! Hives that I deemed heavy for winter have candy boards on them now.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

ctgolfer said:


> Isn't to late to treat for mites? I have the Mite away q stripes here on hand, I didn't use them because my mite load test's were so low. One hive had 17 and the rest were 4-8 mites in early September so I didn't treat. I was told to treat if they were 20+.



Too late for the MAQS. I use Oxalic vapor, you can treat more then once, not hard on the bees at all and pretty effective. How many bees for that many mites? I treat in the fall when the mite count is over 5 in an alcohol wash with about 300 bees. I believe the 20 mites is for natural drop on the bottom board over a 3 day period. Remember, mites vector virus issues and they compound mite infestation.


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## jstoneservices (Dec 13, 2011)

Was it too cold for small bunch to make it. Are there any dead in empty cells where they balled and couldn't move to feed? Sorry man.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

ctgolfer said:


> In all the hives we tested with powder sugar we found less the 20 mites in each hive after 30 minutes


Just so I understand. Did you dust the entire hive and this was the count on the sheet underneath...or did you put bees into a container and roll them around? 
If this was the entire hive....20 doesn't sound bad to me.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

For the container method ... I read on a site where you put 1/2 cup of bees in a ball jar and dust them and then shake out the mites through a 1/8 screen. How do you scoop up 1/2 cup of bees? Aren't they going to just fly away and doesn't that get them mad?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How do you scoop up 1/2 cup of bees? 

First you take the jar and put 1/2 cup of water in it and use a magic marker to mark that level on the jar. Then you open the hive and find a frame of brood and pick a spot where the bees are thick and there isn't a queen... and gently scoop off the bees into the jar. Repeat until you get to the line.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

to add to what M Bush said, take from brood frames, w/ brood on for best results


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Powdered sugar dusting method of checking for Varroa mites by Marla Spivak:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAQShZk1cic

In the video, she is using a small rectangular can to scoop up the bees for testing.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

In my yards twenty mites from a half cup of bees is high. I treat any with double digits. On the other hand, a full hive dusting can drop a hundred or so and still not be dangerously infested.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I have a ball jar that is already marked so the first step wouldn't be necessary. I thought the scooping part would mash bees. Anyways, this method is primarily getting nurse bees I take it? Then they said to multiply times 1.3 for a factor to account for something else and that would give you a count of mites/100bees. I believe they were looking for a count of 6 or less (6%).


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I thought the scooping part would mash bees.

Not if you do it right...


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Ctgolfer. Was this your first season? I am fairly close, I could look at the hives may be one day next week if you want. Providing you didn't clean them out all ready.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> Not if you do it right...


That's the part I would like to see, doing it right.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I would treat before 20 mites might check out:

http://www.capabees.com/main/files/pdf/varroathreshold.pdf

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-reconnaissance-mite-sampling/


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I doubt mites are the problem.


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## Todd Eury (Feb 27, 2011)

We had our monthly club meeting last night and members are reporting a 25% loss already. When they check the hives there are plenty of stores but there will be few bees to none. Sometimes there will be just the queen and a few bees left. Two NC State inspectors said that they are seeing these kind of losses across the state. They advised that it is Nosomea causing the hive loss. There are evening seeing it in colonies that were treated going into fall. They reccommend teating with a 2 to 1 syrup drench. Mix I gallon of 2 to 1 with the reccommended dose of Fumigillan B and then pour 12 ounces of the syrup directly on the cluster when the dat time temps. reach 50 degrees or higher. Try to do the treatment around mid day so the bees have time to clean it up. Repeat in 7 days or when the temps will allow.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Todd Eury said:


> They advised that it is Nosomea causing the hive loss.


Can Nosema be the cause if there are no signs of any kind of fecal staining?

> there are plenty of stores but there will be few bees to none

This is typical of our losses the last five years but I see no fecal staining.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

two types of nosema, apis, which often manifests itself as dysentery. Nosema ceranae often has no obvious signs and can only be diagnosed with a microscope. You can pull some bees apart and look for cream colored guts. Nosema apis is much more common in winter while ceranae is a summer disease, particularly in the northern states and Canada. Some evidence that both apis and ceranae can exist in the same hive at the same time. Recommend you read Randy's papers on it.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> Ctgolfer. Was this your first season? I am fairly close, I could look at the hives may be one day next week if you want. Providing you didn't clean them out all ready.


G Thanks Bluegrass, I did clean them out, I had to get them stored away before the mice got in them. I would love to have a beek look at them from time to time, but I guess I blew it this time. Really appreciate the offer though. This was my first season, I am very worried about the other hives but I guess I just have to wait it out at this point. They were all well fed and they all have patties on them still.


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

I am afraid its too late for that, in the thirties today for the high, teens tonight. I Really think it was a lack of pollen, we had a hurricane followed by another week of rain and wind, and another....The wettest year on record. Then a very early snow storm. Just crap weather all year. I did treat with Fumigillan B, wish I had known about the drench. They didn't mention that at the Nosema seminar I attended this summer. The drench does make sense, it forces every bee to consume some of the syrup and not just store it away. I don't know how to thank all the guys here for helping, you are all so kind.


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## Todd Eury (Feb 27, 2011)

The inspector said we were dealing with Nosema Ceranae. They explained that you would not see very much spotting on the hives. We decided as a club that the club would pay for the treatments and assist anyone that was not able to treat their hives when the temps allowed it because of work schedules.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Since freezing kills the spores for ceranae, I don't think it's a big problem in the north.My counts drop considerably as the winter wears on. I also would never treat for ceranae without testing.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I am guessing they don't have enough ventilation and are buttoned up too tight. Did you have the screened bottoms closed off? I would open the last one up, and on the rest of the hives (the ones with the solid bottoms) shim up the hive body off of the bottom board to offer more ventilation. With the temp swings we have been having my guess is that good old fashion condensation did them in. 

If you ever want me to swing by and take a look at things let me know. Also if you want to replace your deadouts I am offering a fall price on packages until Jan 1st.

Brad


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

camero7 said:


> Since freezing kills the spores for ceranae, I don't think it's a big problem in the north.


I have heard that song sung about other things up here. The spores are not going to die if they are in a warm host that can pass them on to brood and young bees. I think there is a lot we don't know about hive losses after the fact.


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## oldreliable (Jan 29, 2011)

Todd Eury said:


> We had our monthly club meeting last night and members are reporting a 25% loss already. When they check the hives there are plenty of stores but there will be few bees to none. Sometimes there will be just the queen and a few bees left. Two NC State inspectors said that they are seeing these kind of losses across the state. They advised that it is Nosomea causing the hive loss. There are evening seeing it in colonies that were treated going into fall. They reccommend teating with a 2 to 1 syrup drench. Mix I gallon of 2 to 1 with the reccommended dose of Fumigillan B and then pour 12 ounces of the syrup directly on the cluster when the dat time temps. reach 50 degrees or higher. Try to do the treatment around mid day so the bees have time to clean it up. Repeat in 7 days or when the temps will allow.


All of this treating bees with chemicals routine is half of the problem..I would bet beekeepers are creating half of the problem..my TBH has zero mite and over 100,000 strong..no chemicals nothing


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I have heard that song sung about other things up here. The spores are not going to die if they are in a warm host that can pass them on to brood and young bees. I think there is a lot we don't know about hive losses after the fact.


But the combs are sterilized anywhere the bees aren't clustered. My hives are pretty much broodless and nc is a disease much more prevalent in older bees than young bees. As a matter of fact, even in the south badly infested hives have very low to zero spores in nurse bees.

You might listen to the singing from those who study this stuff.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

camero7 said:


> You might listen to the singing from those who study this stuff.


I would want to know their agenda first. It affects what they publish.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

CTgolfer, i am only 20 minutes away from you and when I used packages I always requeened in August with a local Carniolan queen. If I did not do this and let the Southern package queen head the hive into winter I had dead hives as early as Labor day and as late as January but never getting to Spring. That is just me, I hope you have better luck. I would highly recommend that you call Alan Holmberg at Full Bloom apiaries and see if you can requeen your hives in late Spring with some of his stock. Good luck, let me know if I can help out at all.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

camero7 said:


> while ceranae is a summer disease, particularly in the northern states and Canada.


read how i saved my bees in the current ABJ, the author feels different, Dr medhat nassar(?sp) recommends treating with fumidil in canada. I love randy's articles and writtings, but always remember he's in Calif. and doesn't get the kind of winters we get up north. Since getting all my bees on fumidil in the fall, have the best bees in years. but to each his own.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

wildbranch2007 said:


> read how i saved my bees in the current ABJ, the author feels different, Dr medhat nassar(?sp) recommends treating with fumidil in canada. I love randy's articles and writtings, but always remember he's in Calif. and doesn't get the kind of winters we get up north. Since getting all my bees on fumidil in the fall, have the best bees in years. but to each his own.


I believe that Nassar also recommends very low mite counts, which is critical. Allen Dick, who also is a little north of me doesn't feel treating is helpful. And fumidil is a nasty medicine with it's own problems. I'm not opposed to treating for it but I don't believe there is a good treatment. I have nosema in my hives but I'm hoping that keeping the mites down and the bees well fed will keep my losses low.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

camero7 said:


> Allen Dick, who also is a little north of me doesn't feel treating is helpful.


true and allen dick also lost 100% of his hives last year not treating and now this year he is over treatinginch:

also might want to look at randies article in current abj, he now thinks that the method for counting nosema is not "acurate" (not sure best word to use) and has come up with a new method that only requires 5 bees. now have to go back and reread it.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Don't believe he's treating for nosema is he? When I said he didn't believe in treating I meant nosema, not mites. He's using Oxalic acid vapor I believe.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

20 mites is nothing...


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Bluegrass all I can say is WOW!!! What happened with this hive? How long / what did you do to get all those mites on the bottom board? Can you give us a little info please? As a new beek I've been concerned with about 4 or so in the oil pan at the bottom. This to me just seems like


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

camero7 said:


> Don't believe he's treating for nosema is he? When I said he didn't believe in treating I meant nosema, not mites. He's using Oxalic acid vapor I believe.


one last post then I have to get going, copy of a link to bee-l where allen discusses his losses. since he doesn't know what caused them to die(suspect mites as the vector) what makes you think that a fumidil treatment might not have saved them. but point is mute we will never know will we.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1104&L=BEE-L&F=&S=&P=178503



FWIW, I am quite sure that varroa did not kill them, but that some other agent, probably a virus IMO, reaches critical levels when the mites get up in numbers and spreads rapidly through a yard.



So, at this point, I have a lot of cleanup to do and equipment to store. I'm hoping that whatever killed these bees does not stay in the equipment


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

oldreliable said:


> ..my TBH has zero mite and over 100,000 strong..no chemicals nothing


Zero mites? Do you really believe this?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wildbranch2007 said:


> FWIW, I am quite sure that varroa did not kill them, but that some other agent, probably a virus IMO, reaches critical levels when the mites get up in numbers and spreads rapidly through a yard.


He says this but at the end he says look what happens if you don't control the mites.:s

If you don't know what cause the death you don't know what caused the dead. "Mite resistant bees", that's a little fishy.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

oldreliable said:


> All of this treating bees with chemicals routine is half of the problem..I would bet beekeepers are creating half of the problem..my TBH has zero mite and over 100,000 strong..no chemicals nothing


Oldreliable, two things:

How do you know that there is "zero mite"?

and

How do you know that your TBH is "over 100,000 strong"?


Adam


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

delber said:


> Bluegrass all I can say is WOW!!! What happened with this hive? How long / what did you do to get all those mites on the bottom board? Can you give us a little info please? As a new beek I've been concerned with about 4 or so in the oil pan at the bottom. This to me just seems like


As you can see by the bee leg in the pic this is about 4 square inches of bottom board. This is a severe case, but the mites were knocked back with Apistan, which is how they ended up on the bottom board, and the hive re-queened.

This pic is from a friend in Great Britain; there is no such thing as "treatment free" there. You treat or they die. They have had mites a lot longer then we have. This country will get to this point in the next decade or two. Hopefully we will be a little ahead of the curve with resistant and hygienic bees.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Blue Grass, 
you talk of the mites being knocked back with apistan. Apistan is well documented on resistance to the mites. So, to know if you got a good kill, one would have to sample both pre and post treating to know if it was successful


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

camero7 said:


> I believe that Nassar also recommends very low mite counts, which is critical... And fumidil is a nasty medicine with it's own problems. I'm not opposed to treating for it but I don't believe there is a good treatment. I have nosema in my hives but I'm hoping that keeping the mites down and the bees well fed will keep my losses low.


Reality check..."no" treatment is 'good', but rather born out of necessity. We have a choice...healthy bees or sick bees or dead bees. Pick what you want and then figure out how to get there.
David Osterman...Manitoba's equivalent to Medhat Nasr, says and i quote, Nosema is a "stress" disease. Stress diseases are management issues. Stressors can include but are not limited to...dearths, mites, virus pressure, weather (only if another stressor is present). Think of nosema as a secondary infection. Rarely does it come up unless the hive is under pressure from somewhere.
Do I like treating my hives? No. Are the medicines hard on the bees? Probably. Can i pay the bills with dead bees? Not likely. So i do what it takes to keep the hives alive to a point. (to the point of what is cost effective.) The reality of the situation is, If the hive truely wants to die, it will find a way.


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