# Honey testing & purity



## hex0rz

As a beekeeper, whether hobbyist or commercial, have you ever been asked about the origin of your honey or the purity of it?

What sort of tests can you do to prove to them your honey is real and unadulterated?

Is a lab test the only answer?


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## gone2seed

I sell at the local farmers market and the usual question is,"is this honey from your own bees"? Sometimes the question is ,Is this honey raw,or unheated etc? Is this honey organic? These are all normal questions from customers and I answer honestly. For the rare smart_ss,who might ask me to prove my honey was pure,I send them on down the line and tell them not to come back. There are plenty of good people out there who are happy to buy a good product.


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## sqkcrk

Amen, gone2seed.


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## hex0rz

I revised the original post to include commercial keepers as well to maybe entice them to also put in on the subject as well.

I'm sure by doing so, then we might have to discuss also state laws or the likes on the subject of unadulterated honey.

How are we US based beekeepers going to be able to set ourselves apart from others who do adulterate honey?

I know a con man can just as easily lie to someone's face. Why should our customers trust us on just our word?


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## jim lyon

Most major honey packers, particularly those participating in True Source are testing for many things including adulteration before accepting. If their sampling dosent match pretty closely with the sampling the producer sends them then it's not at all unheard of for the honey to be rejected. As a producerif you aren't signed up with True Source then you are probably going to have to sign a document certifying the origin of the honey. 
In short, when dealing in trailer load lots of honey, nobody takes my word for anything.


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## hex0rz

jim lyon said:


> Most major honey packers, particularly those participating in True Source are testing for many things including adulteration before accepting. If their sampling dosent match pretty closely with the sampling the producer sends them then it's not at all unheard of for the honey to be rejected. As a producerif you aren't signed up with True Source then you are probably going to have to sign a document certifying the origin of the honey.
> In short, when dealing in trailer load lots of honey, nobody takes my word for anything.


Is this in matter of ethics, or law?


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## Ian

Our packer here (BeeMaid honey cooperative ) has all the membership register and comply with true source. BeeMsids retail customers and private label pack demand it.
It's a program which helps confirm the membership is not circumventing honey.


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## jim lyon

hex0rz said:


> Is this in matter of ethics, or law?


I think its mostly cya in an increasingly litigious society. True Source is a self imposed industry attempt to try to separate the ethical packers from the unethical ones that undercut them with "funny honey".


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## hex0rz

Which person would this protect? The seller, packer, consumer, or all?

I try to buy foods certified with the NON-GMO project verify label. This means I'm not supposed to be buying GMO food. Can't a consumer find this true source label and know they are buying pure honey? How does true source prove these? Through lab tests with certificate of analysis'?


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## jim lyon

hex0rz said:


> Which person would this protect? The seller, packer, consumer, or all?
> 
> I try to buy foods certified with the NON-GMO project verify label. This means I'm not supposed to be buying GMO food. Can't a consumer find this true source label and know they are buying pure honey? How does true source prove these? Through lab tests with certificate of analysis'?


This should answer most of your questions. 
http://www.truesourcehoney.com


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## hex0rz

Thanks


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## sqkcrk

hex0rz said:


> Which person would this protect? The seller, packer, consumer, or all?
> 
> I try to buy foods certified with the NON-GMO project verify label. This means I'm not supposed to be buying GMO food. Can't a consumer find this true source label and know they are buying pure honey? How does true source prove these? Through lab tests with certificate of analysis'?


What is YOUR source of concern?


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## clyderoad

sqkcrk said:


> What is YOUR source of concern?


maybe hex0rz's concern stems from his posts in another thread and the quality of honey from his hives
fed 160+ lbs of sugar each?




hex0rz said:


> Last year I started over and got 12 nucs. I had a head start with nucs compared to packages, but still being their first year, I built them up and harvested about 240 lbs. of honey. I had somewhat of a spring flow before I moved them and then a summer flow for 1 1/2 months.
> 
> My success in harvesting honey from first year hives was that anytime there was no flow going, I always had feed on them. 2 gallons of syrup at all times! I probably bought almost 2000lbs of cane sugar last year doing it. Make sure to have protein subs on at all times unless they're not taking it. Now I have 12 hives worth of drawn comb to start over with AGAIN, this year.
> 
> ...I did not win the varroa battle. -_-





hex0rz said:


> Well, if all my customers who told me its the best honey they've ever had, then I guess sugar syrup is the new honey! They literally stopped taking the syrup once the flow started and I pulled the feed.


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## irwin harlton

All bulk honey in semi, container loads bought by packers is tested.All or most reputable packers,, brokers buying off shore honey are using Intertek, or other highly reputable source of tests.I would say we need better tests,judging on current market conditions and the flow out of China,india,Taiwan,Ukraine and Vietnam, 196% INCREASE IN 7 years of honey exports from these 5 countries ,, a 8% INCREASE IN WORLD BEE STOCK HAS LED TO 61% increase in honey exports..................we has been taken to the cleaners brother and fleeced

Heres a example https://issuu.com/irwinharlton/docs/fraud_suspicion__spanish_honey


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## LeonardS

hex0rz said:


> Which person would this protect? The seller, packer, consumer, or all?
> 
> I try to buy foods certified with the NON-GMO project verify label. This means I'm not supposed to be buying GMO food. Can't a consumer find this true source label and know they are buying pure honey? How does true source prove these? Through lab tests with certificate of analysis'?


To stay non GMO, I wouldn't eat anything with corn or soybeans in it. I don't see the grain elevators separating GMO vs. Non-GMO in this area. Of course, I don't think there are many non-GMO corn or soybeans left in the States that are the big producers.


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## Ian

irwin harlton said:


> All bulk honey in semi, container loads bought by packers is tested.All or most reputable packers,, brokers buying off shore honey are using Intertek, or other highly reputable source of tests.I would say we need better tests,judging on current market conditions and the flow out of China,india,Taiwan,Ukraine and Vietnam, 196% INCREASE IN 7 years of honey exports from these 5 countries ,, a 8% INCREASE IN WORLD BEE STOCK HAS LED TO 61% increase in honey exports..................we has been taken to the cleaners brother and fleeced


Yup

For an organization like BeeMsid where they source 100% from the Canadian prairies, the true source registration brings in thst third party audit which proves to BeeMaids retail and private label customers the honey being sold to them is infact produced from those Beekeepers on the Canadian prairies. And BeeMaid has retained its customer base even competing against blended honey packers


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## hex0rz

clyderoad said:


> maybe hex0rz's concern stems from his posts in another thread and the quality of honey from his hives
> fed 160+ lbs of sugar each?


Sure that's one of the prompts for the post and also the Billy bee post as well.

I did some testing myself of my honey and it passed flying colors. Short of doing a lab test. I don't have a tanker to sell nor even close to a barrel of it. So why would I get lab testing done.


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## sqkcrk

So what sort of testing did you do with your honey? What sort of test is "short of doing a lab test"?


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## Roland

Wisconsin has "Wisconsin Certified Honey". We have license WC-0001.

We send a sample to Krieger Food labs, where they test for sugar ratios, moisture, and ISCRA. The cost is around 300 dollars.

Crazy Roland


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## BeeBop

Roland said:


> they test for sugar ratios, moisture, and ISCRA.


Whatsa ISCRA?


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## hex0rz

http://durablehealth.net/food-nutrition/test-honey-purity-know-fake-pure-honey/

This is just one of many sites that show you different ways to test the honey without doing lab testing. If you think I'm going to pay money to lab test my honey just so I can sell to friends and family, your mistaken. By the time I got done doing the lab test and selling the honey, sounds like I would break even.


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## Rader Sidetrack

hex0rz said:


> This is just one of many sites that show you different ways to test the honey without doing lab testing. ....


Just cuz something is posted on the 'net doesn't make it true. 

According to your link, "fake honey" when heated ...


> Becomes bubbly and never caramelizes
> 
> http://durablehealth.net/food-nutri...ition/test-honey-purity-know-fake-pure-honey/


... and yet overheating a sugar & water mix (trying to make 'bee candy' for instance) can result in camelization. Surely a sugar solution qualifies as "fake honey"?



... I wonder what your honey customers will think of the "_matchstick test_" that site promotes. ...


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## jean-marc

irwin harlton said:


> All bulk honey in semi, container loads bought by packers is tested.All or most reputable packers,, brokers buying off shore honey are using Intertek, or other highly reputable source of tests.I would say we need better tests,judging on current market conditions and the flow out of China,india,Taiwan,Ukraine and Vietnam, 196% INCREASE IN 7 years of honey exports from these 5 countries ,, a 8% INCREASE IN WORLD BEE STOCK HAS LED TO 61% increase in honey exports..................we has been taken to the cleaners brother and fleeced
> 
> Heres a example https://issuu.com/irwinharlton/docs/fraud_suspicion__spanish_honey


Irwin, you summed it up very succintly. Not much more needs to be said. Apparently those are very busy little honey bees. Wouldn't mind trying out some of that stock. It's all pretty sad. The money that should be in the hands of commercial beekeepers, their families and employees has vanished and ended up in the pockets of very very shady individuals. Looks like we are in for a rough ride, unless Big Brother steps up to the plate to stop the tide of honey of highly suspicious origin. It's kinda weird, because the industry is made up of highly independant individuals who mostly dislike government, but needs Big Bro to do it's job and now.

Jean-Marc


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## hex0rz

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Just cuz something is posted on the 'net doesn't make it true.
> 
> According to your link, "fake honey" when heated ...
> 
> 
> ... and yet overheating a sugar & water mix (trying to make 'bee candy' for instance) can result in camelization. Surely a sugar solution qualifies as "fake honey"?
> 
> 
> 
> ... I wonder what your honey customers will think of the "_matchstick test_" that site promotes. ...



So, if your put on the spot by a customer to prove them your honey is real and pure, your going to show them what a COA to prove you had lab testing done that your honey is real? What if your a small timer like me, and being accused of bad bee management? Are you just going to tell them go down the line and find someone else because your too proud of yourself to prove you have real honey?

If everyone expects people to be held accountable, then they better get ready to be held accountable, themselves.

That site is one of many that merely help you in determining whether or not the substance being tested has the same characteristics of honey. If it passes those criteria, you should be able to determine if its honey or not. We should make all beekeepers that have honey get tested regardless. Because we need to know if our domestic supply is being tainted from ourselves. Cause you know, someone like me might be selling someone sugar syrup instead of honey from bad bee management. :lookout:

Really, I asked a simple question, initially. A certain person had to come along and give me a lowblow to the subject and pretty much cause a derailment of the thread. I'm actually seeing that quiet frequently recently... :no:


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## sqkcrk

If someone wants you to prove that your honey is real you have lost. If I had to produce lab test results that would mean I did not have a customer's trust to begin with. If asked for proof I would tell them I have no proof to show them other than I took this honey from my beehives. If that isn't proof enough, what more can I say?


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## sqkcrk

hex0rz said:


> As a beekeeper, whether hobbyist or commercial, have you ever been asked about the origin of your honey or the purity of it?
> 
> What sort of tests can you do to prove to them your honey is real and unadulterated?
> 
> Is a lab test the only answer?


No, I have not.

I don't know what sort of tests one can do to prove to someone that my honey is real and unadulterated.

If I had to prove something about whether my honey were real or unadulterated I guess a Lab Test would be useful. Whether worth the price or trouble, that's another question.


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## irwin harlton

Jean- Marc

Maybe all we have to do is get the word out,where this product is coming from, how it is created, how it is marketed, how it is transshipped to avoid duties and why it is being sold, and bought, its history in the market place


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## clyderoad

hex0rz said:


> .................
> Really, I asked a simple question, initially. A certain person had to come along and give me a lowblow to the subject and pretty much cause a derailment of the thread. I'm actually seeing that quiet frequently recently... :no:


the victims of a low blow are those who think they are eating pure honey when the product contains sugar water. 
no matter if the little beekeeper is at fault or big honey exporters and importers.

it's a purity issue and that is the topic of the thread, it's not a derailment. 
could be purity is not as simple as it seems.


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## lharder

If you feed sugar water, how does one make sure it doesn't end up in the honey?

I have some frames of sugar water honey from feeding last fall. Making sure my customers get the real deal is important to me. Now that temperatures are pretty warm and lots is flowering, I am in the process of removing any excess frames of food (saved for new nucs) and putting a capped frame on the outside of each brood box box so I know where they are. No food in the supers where I will harvest from. I fed aggressively because of expansion, but expansion will be more moderate going forward and I hope not to feed at all except in an emergency.


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## sqkcrk

hex0rz said:


> Really, I asked a simple question, initially. A certain person had to come along and give me a lowblow to the subject and pretty much cause a derailment of the thread. I'm actually seeing that quiet frequently recently... :no:


Didn't you yourself say that you fed syrup between flows and harvested twice the average amount of honey for your area? And then you sold it, knowing how it was produced. You should be the arbiter of whether your "honey" is unadulterated or not.

If a potential customer of yours asked you to prove that your honey is unadulterated, could you tell them how you produced it and get them to believe that it isn't adulterated?

If going from hypothetical to specific is derailment, well, sorry. Open the door, someone is going to walk through it.


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## hex0rz

sqkcrk said:


> Didn't you yourself say that you fed syrup between flows and harvested twice the average amount of honey for your area? And then you sold it, knowing how it was produced. You should be the arbiter of whether your "honey" is unadulterated or not.
> 
> If a potential customer of yours asked you to prove that your honey is unadulterated, could you tell them how you produced it and get them to believe that it isn't adulterated?
> 
> If going from hypothetical to specific is derailment, well, sorry. Open the door, someone is going to walk through it.


No, I only harvested an average of 20lbs per hive. Probably less. I still have the majority of it for my own stock. Some seem to be convinced that because of my feeding style, there can only be sugar syrup in it because it was impossible to make that much honey off of first year nucs. But like you state, I thoroughly believe what I have in my jars, IS honey. I guess if it is syrup, then I would be tasting the stuff that I added to that syrup? Unless the bees do a really good job at turning that syrup into honey. Which is actually impossible for them to do. Syrup is syrup and honey is honey. This stuff tastes like the honey I never had before.

If a customer asked me how I produced it, I would tell them, the bees did it. Then I would tell them where the bees were located that year and what crop I believe they were making it from. Which in this case was knapweed. If they asked me to get more detailed about my management practices I could and if they asked to prove further I would politely tell them I have no other way and that if I felt it was good enough for me, then I would think it would be good enough for them. Its their choice in whether or not they would want to buy it. I brought a fully drawn and capped frame of honeycomb into work one day and let anyone take a spoon and eat from it. I think that was a mistake as it was more like putting a bag of meth in a room of meth heads!


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## jim lyon

Bees will cap and store syrup much like they will nectar. If you fed syrup with extracting supers on, theres a pretty high probability that what you harvested is a pretty tasty blend of honey and syrup.


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## clyderoad

hex0rz said:


> ...........!


eyes and ears wide open and mouth closed is the approach I would take regarding subject matter I knew nothing about.


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## hex0rz

clyderoad said:


> eyes and ears wide open and mouth closed is the approach I would take regarding subject matter I knew nothing about.


From what statement are you pulling this From?


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## Roland

If your feed gets into your honey, which is more common with double deep brood chambers than with singles, the ISCIRA will compare the Carbon Isotope ratios from the carbohydrate to the protein portions of the honey. If the ratios do not match up, it is likely the carbohydrate portion did not come from the same source as the protein.

Crazy Roland


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## AHudd

hex0rz said:


> http://durablehealth.net/food-nutrition/test-honey-purity-know-fake-pure-honey/
> 
> This is just one of many sites that show you different ways to test the honey without doing lab testing. If you think I'm going to pay money to lab test my honey just so I can sell to friends and family, your mistaken. By the time I got done doing the lab test and selling the honey, sounds like I would break even.


What are "bee body parties" and "bloating paper"?:scratch:

Alex


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## dadux

So True Source is a reputable organization? When I saw this honey with the "Organic" claim boldly labeled I became skeptical. So I guess the honey is ethically sourced but unethically labeled "Organic".


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## Rader Sidetrack

>> they test for sugar ratios, moisture, and ISCRA.



BeeBop said:


> Whats a ISCRA?


ISCRA stands for "Stable Carbon Isotope Ratio Analysis of Honey". It is a method of testing for honey adulterated by refined sugars (like cane or beet sugar) and/or HFCS (High Fructose Corn Syrup). More on ISCRA testing of honey here:
https://collection1.libraries.psu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/honeyboard/id/250


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## jim lyon

dadux said:


> So True Source is a reputable organization? When I saw this honey with the "Organic" claim boldly labeled I became skeptical. So I guess the honey is ethically sourced but unethically labeled "Organic".
> View attachment 24557
> View attachment 24558


Yes, I do think True Source is an ethical organization. Brazil's bee industry has expanded considerably in the past decade and my understanding is that a lot of Brazilian honey actually does meet the criteria required to be labeled organic in the US.


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## Ian

Basically most of the organic honey is commercially produced in Brazil


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