# 10 hardy mites



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Hi, All!


Today is new bees emergence day! Went into the hive for a mite hive check.
Many new bees got mites on them 2-3 new and old mites on each bee. Got my small tweezers out to plug
some mites off the bees and put them inside my bee suit pocket. I want to know how long a mite can stay
alive when they're off the bees. My next little mite experiment is to put them inside a small jar on the grind up oa powder and
some in the already burned oa powder. It is amazing that after 8 hours on going they are still alive inside the bee suit pocket. Some hardy mites I got here, wouldn't you say. My worry is the bees now since they have survived the mites all summer long without any treatment. Now is the time that this infestation will be repeated again this coming season. Healthy bees and healthy mites also! I don't like the scene of the mites and new bees now. The mites are multiplying almost 3 times faster than the bees as the hives are on a gradual expansion mode now. Afraid at this rate the hives will be full of mites by the next new bee cycle or 2. Is there any strategy to this mite situation now? Oh, I ditched the small razor blade now and only use the small tweezers to plug the mites off.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> I want to know how long a mite can stay
> alive when they're off the bees.


5 days in a tupperware after leaving the dead bee.

Did the mites kill pupa in cells?
Are the mites fertile? 
Are there dark and light mites? 
Are the new bees damaged?


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## bee keeper chef (Nov 1, 2015)

I have never seen a mite on my bees I have 30 hives and never saw one on inspections. I check weekly for the most part. I know I have mites and I use OAV after a treatment I see them on the sticky boards some more than others If you are seeing that many I would be alarmed. What is the age of your hive, bees can and do live with mites but sooner or later I think your hive will collapse. Treat, my opinion


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## Redhawk (Jun 7, 2016)

Can't offer up any worthwhile help, beepro. It does sound serious. Have you tried to sugar? And what Sybille asked. Have you seen the "new" Aussie mite in your area yet?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Good thing you don't have a winter. Maybe they'll survive.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Your TF approach leaves you limited. If the colony weakens too much, use measures to prevent robbing. 

Sibylle questions seem to me very relevant to assess the virulence of the mites and associated viruses as well as their fertility rate.


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

I have to agree with chef. Last year I did OAD near xmas and thought that would take care of the mites for the year. I had 10 colonies and mid July and late July I had 2 that were overrun by SHB. I'm sure the SHB were NOT the cause of the collapse mites were. These were 2nd year colonies so they were nice and full of bees. Both were swarms collected the year before so no special genetics.

I just bought a vaporizer and will treat in July in 2017. I thought you could not treat with supers on until I saw someone suggest putting a solid board between the brood chamber and the supers. I'm in mid Missouri and in a good bee club that promotes education. At least 10 others people talked about losing packages around that time.

I can only offer my own experience as help.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Do you see grooming?
Are the mites bitten?

2 approaches:
- temperature over 10°C treat with sugar dusting the hive if you want to loose some phoretic mites ( and if the bees are still healthy) or use OAV
- Courage. Let it be. Could be the trigger to VSH behavior or grooming.

Did they start drones already? They need drones for the mites. Take away the mites from the worker cells.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Was this from the hive you put all the capped brood into, the one you call your "mite bomb?"


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Wait, I thought your bees were resistant and cleaned up all the mites.


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## spencer (Dec 7, 2004)

Take away the queen and leave them broodless for a few weeks. The mite count will drop dramatically. 
I've been doing this now for 7 years now and haven't had to buy bees since.


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## Redhawk (Jun 7, 2016)

Spencer, what's your removal method? Do you cage her to a frame of brood in the hive or pull her completely out? If you remove her completely, do you isolate her or have any specific use for her?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> Was this from the hive you put all the capped brood into, the one you call your "mite bomb?"


Good question, thanks Nordak.



> Take away the queen and leave them broodless for a few weeks.


This is considered a treatment. As long as it´s not used with multiplying the colonies like swarming.


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## spencer (Dec 7, 2004)

Most times I remove her with a couple of frames of brood and make a nuc. I then will sell the nuc.
Pretty much doing what Mel Disselkoen does. 
Other times I will just do a walk away split if I can't find the queen.


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Are you saying you make walk away splits in the winter?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

orthoman said:


> Are you saying you make walk away splits in the winter?


Why not? It's a sure way to get rid of the mites in one side of the split. Especially in MI.


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## spencer (Dec 7, 2004)

Nope, in the spring. When I start seeing drones in May.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Hi jw


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I've never found a few week brood break to do much. Of course it depends upon the composition of the brood at the time, if its all capped and hatches out and the bees are truly broodless for a few weeks, maybe, but if you got a bunch of young brood and eggs present I don't think it's very effective.


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## spencer (Dec 7, 2004)

Works for me. I haven't had to buy bees in 7 years.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Spencer, you got the right idea without any treatment involve. You have to do it when they are starting to
build up with the most minimum and long lived bee population like now. So small brood nest with fewer frames and longer lifespan
bees. The 2 queens inside 1 brood nest is another story expanding the brood nest 2x faster than what the mites can infect thereby
creating more bees than the mites situation on each hatch cycle. For example, see the 2 queens pic below if you can find them.

So I got 4 mites on the already burned oa crystals (oacs.) After 18 hrs the ones still on the oac are all dead except one that I just put on the foil next to the oac. Then put it on the oac again and after 4 hours it was dead. The other 3 mites I put them in the oa powder straight from the can. Again after 18 hrs 2 were dead and 5 hrs later the last one was dead. Not sure what happened there. Maybe the dehydrated oa powder and oac killed them by dehydrating their bodies. So the conclusion is that the chance of using the burned oac or the powdered oa directly covering on the bees just like sugar powder dusting can kill off the mites inside the hive. I'll let you all decide if this is a possible solution in the future. 
Since I'm attempting to go tf this coming season, I will not be treating these hives. Instead, I will use the same method of making the mite bee bomb again by transferring all affected cap brood frames into another hive to make a nuc hive. The remaining free running mites will entered into the 1 remaining open broods frame that I will remove after they are capped. So this is considered a late before the Christmas mites removal. And since the winter bees live longer couple with rainy days they will stay inside the hives and not depleting the field bees that much. One thing I found out on a side-by-side divided hive double queens set up was that when 1 queen is missing on one side then all the foragers will drift into the other queen right side instantly boosting the hive population up. This could be another method to control the mites too. See the pic of a double queen in 1 hive below if you can spot them at all.
Now for some answers: No, the mites did not kill the pupa inside the cells. Many healthy bees with 2 mites on each pupa still emerged in tact, no DWVs either. I cannot explain why other than the high protein (with milk product) patty subs I've been feeding them all. Yes, some mites appeared to be fertile but only 1 from each cell or the ones already got out that attached themselves to the bees seem to be fatter females. So I believe they are the fertile ones!
Yes, there are the dark (older mom) mites and the lighter daughter mites that emerged. More dark than the lighter yellow ones though. I tested all dark mites except 1 lighter mite on the oa powder. I only saw 2 damaged new bees that emerged this time. The other bees are all healthy and fuzzy when they emerged. Yes, I saw the bees grooming each others just like the good ole days. Somehow they did not lose this trait yet. Perhaps it is already built in for them to groom each others this way. Now in order to see the bitten mites I have to be like Carpenter to see them under a microscope. I don't have one so just leave that issue with the bees this time. I will get some Carpenter mite biting bees this Spring if I can. We don't have the drones yet as it is still too chilly outside in the winter time. When the mites have no drones to infect they go for the cap broods first. And I don't plan to wait for them to infect my Cordovan drones trying to conquer some of the local carnis drones at 90% out there. My plan is to get more resistant Cordovan genetics into my local area next season. So I will not treat this time and just leave it as is after this manipulation. They will all survive for sure like they did this past summer signaling a resistant trait built in but seeing the DWVs on the bees I'm not that happy about. The mites are here to stay so I cannot get rid of them completely because the bees cannot take 100% of them out. Live with the mites for now hoping to find more resistant compatible genetics either brought in or grow locally.
You said take the queen out for a few weeks but during the winter time it is hard to do that. I can see it done in the warm Spring and summer days. But how to now unless you have a way to trap the queen inside a small cage somehow?
No, these are not the same hive that I put all the mite bee bomb into. These are the same nuc hives on the mite bee bomb experiment earlier that I took out the mite infected frames. I blame it on the drifting bees going into the stronger queen hives. As a matter of fact the mite bomb queen that got all the infected frames came out a lot cleaner. This is the vsh queen that got the resistant, see the pic of her yellow color below.
Somehow I got freaked out seeing so many mites at one time that I have to picked them out with a small tweezers. Things are getting better now after the new mite bee bomb nucs are made. I'll continue to clean out the mites as much as I could until the early Spring time. They all are on the beginning of the expansion phase now because too many bees that emerged this time. All 4 frames are packed back to back with the new bees. Another sign is the ballooning up well fed laying queens. That is why I have to do something to control the mites now before it gets out of hands on the next hatch cycle. Going to be ugly if I don't do it this time. Should of removed all the center small brood patches that harbor the mites before they emerged. I got a bit greedy this time so another lesson learned. These center small patches of cap broods where all the mites were hiding in did the most damage. Should I have remove them then all hives will be clean this time except the mite bee bomb nuc hive. 
I'm not aware of the new Aussie mite. If they're here then my bees have them already. Maybe they're still the same o' mites from last year. I'm not sure!


Balloon up laying queens on expansion mode now:


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> As a matter of fact the mite bomb queen that got all the infected frames came out a lot cleaner.


Yes. Just like my former mentor told me. Enough bees to do the job.



> This is the vsh queen that got the resistant, see the pic of her yellow color below.


Which one in the pic? The marked or the unmarked?

If I have to start again I will not do it like that. I will use the sugar dusting method every 3 weeks to keep at bay the phoretic mites. 
To me it´s important to separate the treated and untreated hives ( sugar dusting a treatment) and place them into different bee yards. 

The treated Iwant to manage the same way. Select first for overwintering, build up and defense at the entrance boards. 
This first, then leave off the treatment more and more. No exchange of brood comb in established hives. Know each colonies state and estimate the chance to survive.

To me it´s difficult to estimate a colony for breeding good queens if capped brood combs are exchanged.

Thanks, beepro for the detailed description of your methods.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

SiWolKe said:


> ...Which one in the pic? The marked or the unmarked?


Good eyes you have. :applause:


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Well Ray he told us that he had two in this hive so it was easy.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Oh, hehehe, I missed that. Not surprising with the amount of grey hair I've got though. That's my excuse anyway!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Some mites on oa foil pic:


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

At least they are really mites. Some think bee lice are mites.
Here`s a pict of a bee louse:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

From this little experiment, I already know which hives have the good
resistant queen to graft from. You have to have the mites in there in order to
say which queen is the most resistant one. Without the mite pressure, during the winter time they cannot scornd, whereas on summer time they will abandon the hive under heavy mite pressure, then finding the hives that can withstand these mites is your next best option. So use the mites to test the queens under extreme mite pressure! This way you will see which one can take care of the mites without any kind of treatment. Do you have any other better way to see which hives can resist the mite infestation more? It is also the idea that the virgin queens emerged under the extreme mite pressure can withstand them too. All of my resistant queens so far were tested in a high mite state from the cap QCs. I will repeat this experiment again this coming queen rearing season. This time doubling up on the mite infestation or choose the hives with the most mites for these QCs.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

They are real mites as I have been chopping them in half with a small sharp razor
blade all summer long. Now the small tweezers will do. We don't have the louse here one less
issue to deal with.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

beepro said:


> From this little experiment, I already know which hives have the good
> resistant queen to graft from. You have to have the mites in there in order to
> say which queen is the most resistant one. Without the mite pressure, during the winter time they cannot scornd, whereas on summer time they will abandon the hive under heavy mite pressure, then finding the hives that can withstand these mites is your next best option. So use the mites to test the queens under extreme mite pressure! This way you will see which one can take care of the mites without any kind of treatment. Do you have any other better way to see which hives can resist the mite infestation more? It is also the idea that the virgin queens emerged under the extreme mite pressure can withstand them too. All of my resistant queens so far were tested in a high mite state from the cap QCs. I will repeat this experiment again this coming queen rearing season. This time doubling up on the mite infestation or choose the hives with the most mites for these QCs.


How will you test those hives if you still treat and diminish the mites after infesting the colonies first place?


> Since I'm attempting to go tf this coming season, I will not be treating these hives.


A friend of mine did the same test this year with one hive. They barely made it. Sure, he will breed from them with the same argument you give. But his hives are all tf since 3 years.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It is not after the fact that I will choose the breeders.
When majority of the mites are removed then the one with the fewer mites is the winner. As always there are some 
mites still remaining without a treatment option. The hives that have the most re-infestation is the least resistant hives compared to others.
Also when the mite bomb nuc hive can get rid of the mites without crashing it is also a potential winner. However, when the mite bomb hive is overwhelmed by the mites that it cannot even build up then it will be a dead hive for sure. This way I
have many hives to breed from. If you treat them then it is hard to tell because on 1 treatment you cannot control how the
mites died. I'm simply shifting the mite population around to see which hive(s) can handle them better. Remember that after the crashed the remaining survivor is the one that we grafted from to rebuild the hive population using this same resistant trait. Now I have a better control without them crashing all of my hives that I'm still a beekeeper and at the same time able to find out which hive can give me better daughter queens the next season. Also, the Cordovan color you can see which worker bees have the slight difference in color. The amm black or gray bees they all look the same that you cannot tell the difference between the emerged broods. After a few hatch I can tell which bees carry the Cordovan genes and which hives do not. After that I will perform my little mite and bee experiment. The Cordovan color also has the blonde (or almost pinkish glass transparent like) to orange bees (queen.) 
Remember that I asked you before about the bee color preference in the future? You said color doesn't matter that much. Well, I ran into the color issue 4 years ago with the local gray carnis drones dominant population. After the 4th generation of grafted daughter queens I cannot tell much as they are all the same color. So choosing the breeder under this condition is confusing enough. Imagine all queens and workers look the same color on a hive check. By the 4th hives I don't even remember what they look like except all gray. Now with the Cordovan genes I can tell the difference and select for the resistant traits too. Cordovan is like a dye marker to stain whatever genes that you're testing in the lab. I'm using them to test out the resistant factor now!


Smallest blonde worker bee:


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Why so complicated?
Just mark the queen and here you go!
In my areas there are Carnis, Buckfast, Italians, Primorsky, Braunellen, now elgons, AMM...I can´t keep my bees pure except with artificial insemination, which I don´t want to do.
In all hives are different colors, even in the original AMM hive, because the bees drift. Drones will mix and queen colors will differ much.

But I understand your approach. In my beeyards the mites will do the management, though. I hold with Kirk Webster there.
I do not need to test the colonies because the infestation is extremely high in my environment. No hive would survive what you do. A nuc would surely die. Even a nuc with resistant stock.
In time the mites will do the selection for me in a natural way if I let them.

My task will be to split in a way some of them have a small chance to survive this selection and no hinder this development with any poor managements.

When I made splits the queen`s hive got the capped brood with all mites. Just like you do with this management. But this goes against nature because this situation not a natural one.
It´s as much an artificial situation as treating, only the other way around.
What about the environmental influences?

Mine only survived because I made strong splits with 6-8 brood frames and they had much stores. They had enough density still to fight against the mites. And they did! 
I believe every colony will fight like that treated or not treated, if their survival is jeopardized. But the resistant ones have a greater chance to survive because they notice the danger earlier.
This you can test only in a natural situation. The infestation is not coming abruptly. 

The real resistant ones keep the mites at bay the whole season, they never have a dangerous mite load, or even better, have mites but never have virus symptoms.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

SiWolKe said:


> I can´t keep my bees pure except with artificial insemination, which I don´t want to do.


Beepro I don't intend hijack your thread but I have one question to Sibylle. If I noticed in the context in which you are there are no resistant feral swarms. On the other hand your main objective is to develop resistant lines.

If you do an instrumental insemination among queens of a more resistant colony with drones from another more resistant colony you will take quicker and more reliable steps, JMO. Why you do not want to go this way?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Beepro I don't intend hijack your thread but I have one question to Sibylle. If I noticed in the context in which you are there are no resistant feral swarms. On the other hand your main objective is to develop resistant lines.
> 
> If you do an instrumental insemination among queens of a more resistant colony with drones from another more resistant colony you will take quicker and more reliable steps, JMO. Why you do not want to go this way?


Because my goal is to make tf beekeeping possible for the normal beekeeper who wants to breed his own queens.
It´s an experiment, if you want to see it like that. Maybe it will crash, but if you don´t try you will never know.

And I´m even more crazy. I want to keep bees tf and without special queens surrounded by treated bees and see if other facts like managements, comb, feed and such have any influence on resistance.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

beepro said:


> We don't have the louse here one less
> issue to deal with.


The louse in fact is no louse but a kind of fly.
If they show up it´s the first sign of a hive developing a healthy microfauna.
They do no damage.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You mean the red eyes small flies? Somehow the red eyes are the dominant genes here. The
black or gray eyes are not. I just leave them alone as they're not harmful to my hives. 
This is an open forum so anybody can chime in. I don't own this forum so anybody can post at
any threads if they want to. I'm open to all diverse conversation. All you have to do is to post and bring
it back on topic. Everybody is welcome!
Every time I marked the queen the bees balled on her. So I stop doing it even though I've made a queen
marking tube out of the small medicine bottle. With II or AI, I can speed up the resistant process though a
bit expensive to order all the necessary equipment. So I'll continue to manage the mites to help the bees out
until they can manage themselves. All I need is one hive that show the real low mite infestation like my first season. And
I know they're out there perhaps in the feral population somewhere. Another experiment I like to try is to have unlimited
open brood nest during the expansion mode in the 5 frame nuc boxes stacked as high as I could with supporting cap broods from all the infected hives. Then at the end of the season to see how many nuc boxes I can stack up as tall as those honey supers. There are so many
variation to try.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> Every time I marked the queen the bees balled on her. So I stop doing it even though I've made a queen
> marking tube out of the small medicine bottle.


Myself I´m not marking, but I saw my friends waiting until the marks are dried before putting back the queen, even so some nurse bees tried to clean her. 
Some use a soft mesh to hold the queen immobile until the paint or the adhesive is dry. There are some good tools, too.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

After the queen is marked, she is allowed to roam the small medicine tube until the
paint had dried. So no need to pin her in on a mesh. She's just as happy to wait a little while.


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