# MDA Splitter Technique



## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

I took a look there a while ago and concluded that he is just making a big deal out of things which are not particulary new and using quite a few words to do so. I found the site awkward to read since everything seems to be in PDFs and I had trouble distinguishing one article from another. Hope I don't sound too negative, but he made a few statements that made me question the rest of the writing. 

As for splitting that much, in the north, as you say, the subsequent winter can be be a problem. I do know of one fellow well north of me who did 16 for one and wrote an article which claimed success. I did not hear about it again, though, and he is still around.

I think that splitting massively is one of those things that works 2 out of 3 years or 3 out of 4. The failures when they come, though, are often nearly total and wipe out any advantage gained by being greedy -- and make a more conservative approach more attractive.

This year I got a bit over 3 for 1, and that was letting the bees raise their own queens. My schedule was not at all optiomal. I had it done as time permitted. 

I have already decided that I should be able to get up to maybe 5 to 1, with a bity more beekeeping. I could push it to 8, but some years we just do not get an August or September and that would knock away back.

Another thing to remember is that when you meet a beekeeper who seems to be a superman, he may just be lucky. There are some microclimates which are just ideal and the pollen also just happenes to be perfect for bees. Fifty miles away, doing the same thing could be much less successful.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Specialkayme said:


> If anyone has experience with this, I am also interested in the potential it has for the south and warmer climates. The author seems to revolve around colder temperatures (where he is located). I would imagine that changing it for the south would be easier, as you don't need as much stores, and you can split them earlier.
> 
> Ideas? Problems?



I answered this question in another thread. It is possible to split colonies 16:1, but you would have to split up your best colonies about dandelion flow, and again about every 5 weeks until August. I don't do it that way as I'd rather make honey with my best colonies and bees (nucs) with my non-producers. 4:1 or 8:1 is sufficient for my management.

We in the north may have an advantage over you in the south. We have pretty dependable flows from May to September. Your nectar flows dry up in when..July? That might be your biggest problem...aside from Small Hive beetles.

From outbreeding mite thread:

I split up my non-productive hives in July. I average 4 nucs per. So that's 16 from 4. We have a good flow after July from Loosestrife and Goldenrod. Even so, I still have to feed quite a bit. I can split the nucs about 1 month to 5 weeks after setting them up. The latest I would split them is about first week of August.

I'd have to do the math for 1 to 16. 

If I had queens I could nuc strong colony on Dandelion into 4 nucs. May 15.
Split nucs in half on June 22 makes 8
Split nucs in half July 29 makes 16 

So I guess you could produce 16:1 here in Vermont provided optimal weather conditions and flows. I'd figure on feeding 1-2 gallons of 2:1 per in early Fall.


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## hemichuck (Oct 27, 2009)

I had the good fortune last year to attend a seminar by Mel Disselkoen and it was quite interesting.He outlined his technique and gave a little history about how he came up with these ideas.He was a commercial beekeeper for many years and said that he primarily sold nucs but at the same time he said that you can sell some of the nucs and combine some onto split colonies for honey production.I was sitting next to a guy that had gone to Mels field days and had put his theories to the test.He told me that they not only worked but that they worked quite well and if I planned on trying this that I had better start building the heck out of some equipment! 
I do plan on giving this a try this year and I will be happy to report what happens afterwards.My impression of Mel was that he was an extremely gifted beekeeper and very passionate about his findings.What also impressed me is that he is more than willing to give away all of his knowledge to anyone who will listen because he wants to make sure that the honeybees thrive.
I plan on going up to his field days this year and I would encourage anyone who has any questions about this program to contact Mel and ask him.I'm sure he would welcome the chance to talk to you.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I have contacted Mel directly to ask him what he advises on changing the schedule to match someone with a warmer climate. After describing my swarm dates, flow dates, and when the nectar stops rolling in, he helped me build a custom schedule. Very nice, and informative.

If anyone is interested in the specifics of the schedule, I have no problem sharing them, but I won't waste the time and energy in putting it on here if no one really cares.

I will tell you that based on my information, Mel advised me to go for a (total) 8:1 split this season, and not a 16:1 split as advised in his article. Mel also tells me that I shouldn't have a problem averaging 100 lbs of honey per hive that I have right now (prior to the splits). 

I'm still rather skeptical of the technique and the success rates that it boasts, but I've decided to at least give it a try with only one hive. If it works well, I'll commit more resources next year. If it does work, I should get 100 lbs of honey and 7 extra hives. If it doesn't work, the most I could lose is one hive. To me, it's worth trying it with at least one hive. Any more than that and I don't think I would be comfortable.

Being that my results will only be with one starting hive, I don't really think it will give enough credence (either way) to the theory. If it doesn't work, it could just be a fluke and I could have screwed it up somehow. If it does work, it again could just have been a fluke, based on a good season or a good independent variable. But either way it should be interesting to watch happen.

It should also be mentioned that I've heard criticisms of Mel and his articles for trying to push his nuc design, or push his OTS method. I can tell you through my emails that he has never tried to sell me anything, or get his name attached to anything. Not saying that his goals are 100% pure, but I havn't seen anything bad yet.

I'll keep you guys posted as the process goes on.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Post it, as I am interested. In my 'Bee Experiments" I modified by early ordering queens because I didn't think I could have mature drones for breeding my queens [nor laying queens for that matter] at the end of february/early March.

Danny


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## hemichuck (Oct 27, 2009)

I would be interested also.I plan on devoting a couple of hives to this experiment.I have a few others to get honey off of so at best I am gambling with these 2 hives.
Last year was the first year that my wife and I had bees.We had the typical newbee problem of wanting to overmanage the hives(get in them all the time)We started off with 2 nucs and around the middle of June we bought 2 queens and split our hives so we had 4.These hives seemed to be building up pretty good and in the middle of August the bees started eating all of the honey they had stored and the wax off of some of the frames.A local beekeeping friend said that the nectar flow was bad this year because of all of the rain and that we should start feeding the hives to build them up for fall.So I built some feeders and put them on and a few weeks later the hives were just overflowing with bees and the honey was starting to build back up.So in the middle of September my wife decided to take a couple of frames from each hive and make another hive and she bought a queen from Kelley company and stuck them all in a box and they just took off like gangbusters.A couple of beekeepers said there was no way that the last split would survive the winter because there wasnt enough time to build up their stores but I guess the bees didnt get the memo because in October there was so much honey on the hives that I had to take some off and extract it.Of course it tasted like water and honeybee healthy because I was feeding so I kept it to feed the bees this spring.But I guess the point I am trying to make is No matter how little you know and No matter what the experts tell you Sometimes things just work out for the best.I started into winter with 5 hives and hope to build up my numbers this spring with a combination of things like Mels theory,buying a couple of nucs,and maybe this year baiting some hives or catching swarms or maybe even a cutout or 2.Good luck to you and keep us informed on what worked(or didnt)


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

My pleasure DRUR,

The entire process starts 1 week before your first average swarm date. From compiled information, mine is approximately April 1st (although there is no doubt this season will be behind that). So my schedule starts March 25th, or the first date that you see mature drones (if it's after the 25th). Other than that, my season will revolve around my main (and arguably only large) honey flow of tulip poplar, that goes on average from April 25th to May 25th. Last nectar is brought in around July 31st. Based on this information, Mel and I came up with this:

*March 25th*
- Assure that brood size is 8 frames in size. 
- Take two frames of brood plus original queen (referred to as "OQ" or "Old Queen") and place in a nuc. Shake in additional nurse bees. Add pollen and honey as needed.
- Take remaining 6 frames of brood and notch the cell walls down to the midrib on proper larvae. Do it on at least 4 cells total, two different frames. 

*April 1st*
- Check on 6 frame hive. Assure two queen cells exist. Destroy additional cells, leaving only two to prevent swarming. Allow hive to produce new queen (referred to as "NQ").

*April 7th*
- Add supers to "NQ" in preparation for honey flow. Remove supers when full. 
- Allow "OQ" with plenty of room to grow. Move to 10 frame hive when needed.

*June 1st*
- Remove last super of Tulip poplar from "NQ". Continue to allow additional room for growth in both "OQ" and "NQ"

*July 1st*
- Begin preparation for fall splitting. Assure that "NQ" and "OQ" have at least 8 frames of brood. At this point you should have two strong hives. Treat each one the same from this point out.
- Pinch the existing queen.
- Use OTS queen rearing method on frames to prepare two cells per frame for queen cells.

*July 8th*
- Assure that queen cells are capped over. Move 2 frames into nucs, leaving you with four nucs. Assure that only two queen cells are in each nuc to prevent swarming.

*July 31st*
- Check to make sure queen has sucessfully mated
- Assure all nucs have ample amount of room for growth.
- Begin feeding sugar water.

*November 1st*
- Add candy board to each hive



Of all of these moves, Mel explained that the most important method is to ensure that you kill the old queen, and make sure that a new one is made after June 20th. This assures that the queen continues to produce new brood throughout the fall, giving it a much better chance of survival.

He also stressed the importance of the candy board. I've never used one before, but I guess I'll have plenty of experience after this year.

The process should leave you with 8 hives (if you split in half on March 25th, giving you two hives, then each one is split four ways after July 1st, leaving you with 8 hives). Mel explained that even if you had a 75% loss from this point, you have still doubled your colonies.

I am a little concerned with feeding, and making sure that they have enough brood and stores to make it through the winter. I think having a queen that starts laying around August is a little on the late side, but we'll see if it all works out.


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## John_H (Dec 2, 2009)

I've read Mel's stuff and have thought about trying it also. The only thing I have to add is my experience with a fall queen. Last year was my 2nd season keeping bees. I had one hive overwintered from the previous year. They superceded the original queen sometime in August and after mating the new fall queen went nuts. 

I had to feed because we had terrible fall weather (who didn't). But the hive raised brood like crazy, came through winter strong and looks great now. That's a pretty limited view but I thought I was really seeing his point about queens raised after the solstice.

FWIW - John


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## tct1w (Jun 6, 2008)

Im sold.I had read the info but the detail that you gave was awesome, especially since Im only 90 miles west of you. Stupid question the "nucs" are 10 frame hive bodies? I think they must be but just wanted to check . Thanks for such a detailed post and I need to start building some hive bodies. Peace Dave
Sorry I read deeper in it and answered my own question thanks


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

tct1w said:


> Im sold.I had read the info but the detail that you gave was awesome, especially since Im only 90 miles west of you. Stupid question the "nucs" are 10 frame hive bodies? I think they must be but just wanted to check . Thanks for such a detailed post and I need to start building some hive bodies. Peace Dave


I was referring to nucs in the general sense of hive bodies. Either 5 frame, 8 frame, or 10 frame hive bodies. Whichever you use, or feel most comfortable with.

When taking 2 frames of brood out, I would recommend putting them in a 5 frame nuc to grow, then moving the 5 frame into a 10 frame. But that's just me.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Hi, guys. Found Mel's website last year and talked to him, found out that my neighbor is one of his students, being a newbee I felt at least some of my karma is good eh?
My neighbor had very good sucess overwintering last year and followed Mel's plan for splits last summer, I think Mr. Dick is right on about the next winter because he's only got one hive out of eight that's left.
In Mel's defense, we had a poor fall flow and maybe that is a contributing factor, but I think caution is key word when it comes to his splitting plan.
I'm thinking it creates a lot of stress on the colony, but then again Mel loses more knowledge about bees trimming his fingernails than I'll ever know lol!


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I just wanted to clarify a few points. Mel sent me an email notifying me that he does HEAVY feeding in October to prepare them for winter. Without heavy feeding during this time, I don't think they will make it. He also explained that he puts the candy board on his hives in January, and some pollen if you want to. Since his is on the 43rd parallel, I'm not too sure if a candy board is even needed down here. But just to be on the safe side I plan on putting one on about half way through December.

In addition, when I read between the lines, I can tell that some of the individuals that use this method, and with some seasons, the losses can be massive. Mel has told me that he has heard of people having a 100% overwinter rate, and in his yards he has gotten his statistics up to 98%, but if you read between the lines I can tell that some individuals can have a 75% failure rate. So if you are planning on using the technique, don't blame me if you lose the hive.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

FWIW, with my 3+ for one splits , I did not have to feed anything. I also did not have to feed last year doing 3 for 1.

I left some of the hives in three and even four boxes this winter but had to extract some honey in the fall because of the amount of surplus. That was definitely not my intention, since I was splitting to avoid extracting, and I got surplus in spite of myself.

As it happened, we had one of those years when we got a great fall. The early season was poor and my commercial friends had long faces at the end of July since they did not expect much. They had long faces again in October because they were so tired of extracting.

The point is that predicting the season is very hard to do in advance, and splitting requires assumptions about what will follow. If there is no pollen due to drought or a very wet month or two, the splits will just not build. The number of bees may increase, but the reserves in each bee will be substandard. Supplements will definitely help, but nothing is as good as a long summer and fall with continuing flows.


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## mrspock (Feb 1, 2010)

Allen Dick said:


> Another thing to remember is that when you meet a beekeeper who seems to be a superman, he may just be lucky.


We used to have an officemate who always seemed to be making a killing on the stockmarket. In reality, he was trumpeting his wins, and not speaking of his losses.


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## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

I will probably try it this year. But I don't know. I had so many swarm calls last year and then some cutout and trapouts I couldn't keep up like I should. I lost a lot of hives that were swarms that just didn't make it to fall less the winter and others that died out late Nov - Jan. But I would like to try.

As for success rate or failure rate whichever you prefer to use (1/2 full vs 1/2 empty) even if you lost all of the splits except for the original hive you still have a very good success rate.

If you spilt 1 to 8 and the 7 of then died with the last deadout in the late winter you are way ahead of the curve. 

You have the original hive and it's growth (honey/wax/comb) for next year plus you have the frames of comb (brood, honey, combo) from those 7 hive that didn't make it. 

If all 7 ended up the season with 10 frames of comb each (some probably not 100% comb) you have increased you comb supply for the next year by 70 frames!!!!

70 frames that can be used speeding up the growth of packages, nucs, splits, swarms, etc, or for putting on last year's hives to super for honey.

Now let's take this 1 step further. You were using medium frames/boxes. The 70 high could easily be 140 medium!!! 

That's a lot of comb frames. If they are mediums, then you have more comb than you know what to do with to use for honey supers. 

Now for the sake of it, the new years brings in one of the best nectar flows in years. What a bonaza of honey you would have because your bees didn't have to waste any on building comb.

To me a complete loss of the 7 splits was a greater success than having 7 extra hives the next year. :thumbsup:

Is my logic wrong? :scratch:


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## tct1w (Jun 6, 2008)

OK some great comments on this. Learning alot. One quick question. With this method do you use the two mile rule or just leave them at the same yard and cover the entrance with a little grass or something to get them to reorient. I have made splits before and took them away but dont know if it is necessary. Thanks Dave


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

USCBeeMan said:


> To me a complete loss of the 7 splits was a greater success than having 7 extra hives the next year. :thumbsup:
> 
> Is my logic wrong? :scratch:


Granted, I wouldn't say it was a total loss because you "gained" some drawn comb, but for me the "greater success" would be the 7 extra hives next year!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

tct1w said:


> With this method do you use the two mile rule or just leave them at the same yard


I take mine away. When making up mid-summer nucs, they're pretty light on bees anyway. I have enough yards that I can just drive the nucs from the firs yard to the second, and leave them. Last summer I started some dedicated nuc yards. I use land with a good Fall flow, so they'll build up well for winter. 

When I said that I could make 16:1 by splitting the first colonies in mid-May, I used mated queens in all the nucs. I don't think it could be done by using cells or the walk away method.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

> Is my logic wrong? 

I don't know about where you live, but where I live, the comb from deadouts tends to be a burden on any new bees installed on it until they have cleaned it up.

> With this method do you use the two mile rule or just leave them at the same yard

Most experienced beekeepers know by the flow conditions and weather forecast whether to worry about drifting or not. If the bees are working close to the hive, or if the beekeeper would prefer to lose the foragers from the split, then a long distance move would not be indicated. Some also store a split in the dark for three days then return it to the location. There are many tricks.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

> I split up my non-productive hives in July. I average 4 nucs per. So that's 16 from 4. We have a good flow after July from Loosestrife and Goldenrod. Even so, I still have to feed quite a bit. I can split the nucs about 1 month to 5 weeks after setting them up. The latest I would split them is about first week of August.
> 
> I'd have to do the math for 1 to 16.


This has been intriguing and I have been penciling this out. I don't see how I could reliably expect to get much over 4 to 1, measuring May to May and considering the slippage, -- and that is without making any honey on the worst year and not a lot on a good year.

What do you think, Mike? Am I too conservative? I know I hate to see dead hives in spring. It just does not seem right. Am I too old fashioned?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Allen, I only said I thought I could do it. I don't. I split up my non-productive colonies in mid-summer. I use only a frame and a half of brood. Depending on how early in July they are made, they get too crowded by mid-August. Those made the last week of July and the first week of August don't usually get too crowded.

The nucs made at the beginning of July will surely swarm if brood and bees aren't removed. I'm being a bit conservative, but I think 5 weeks is pushing it without intervention. I usually give the extra brood to colonies that can benefit with a few frames of brood in August. So I'm only geting 4 or 5 to 1 myself. But, I'm not going for maximum nucs. I produce honey too. The nucs are coming from the resources in weaker colonies or last year's nucs that weren't suitable and have built up enough to split up.

There's nothing wrong with conservative. You're letting the bees raise their own queens you said? That slows things down a bit. You might get 8 to 1 if you split up good strong colonies in May, and then again in July. Surely you could if you gave them laying queens, but probably chancy with walk away splits. And you are in Alberta.

And you did say May to May...well there is always winter loss. I go July to July and have a loss of zero...all the nuc boxes are magically filled up again by the bee gnomes.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

> Allen, I only said I thought I could do it. I don't.

Sorry if it sounded as if I am arguing with you. I am not. I just looked back at last year's experience, and it was an especially good year, but that is what I got. (I had to eliminate 3 hives thought due to AFB and that did not help my average).

Your beekeeping sounds like my kind of beekeeping. 

> So I'm only geting 4 or 5 to 1 myself. But, I'm not going for maximum nucs. I produce honey too. The nucs are coming from the resources in weaker colonies or last year's nucs that weren't suitable and have built up enough to split up.

Yes. That's something we have done. I learned though that using cells in a yard full of second-rate drones like we find in such colonies is not a recipe for the best success. You were probably smarter than that though.

> There's nothing wrong with conservative. You're letting the bees raise their own queens you said? That slows things down a bit. 

Yes. My only goal was to avoid extracting and I failed. I did wind up extracting, so I miscalculated. Two weeks of suffering. Hobby extractors really suck. In a past life, I would have extracted two truckloads with that much effort.

> You might get 8 to 1 if you split up good strong colonies in May, and then again in July. Surely you could if you gave them laying queens, but probably chancy with walk away splits. And you are in Alberta.

Yes, I have been working the numbers for the coming year. The thing is that I go away for the summer months and last year I just had my daughter break some hives in half for me. 

Then later I came home and thought, "Gee this is working" and then "Gosh! I'm going to have to extract and I have no extractor and the last time I gave my honey to my friends to extract I never saw the boxes or the honey again", so I did it again, then went away for a few months. Then I came back and had to add boxes.

My total beekeeping hours last summer were -- maybe -- 12 hours, total. That may be a stretch, actually. A lot of that was sitting looking at bees or writing about them. (I'm not counting the time I spent dealing with the honey I accidentally produced).

> And you did say May to May...well there is always winter loss. 

That is the acid test.

> I go July to July and have a loss of zero...all the nuc boxes are magically filled up again by the bee gnomes. :-

Have you considered stand up comedy?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>Sorry if it sounded as if I am arguing with you. I am not. 

I didn't think you were arguing. Just trying to clarify what I said so I won't be misquoted by others saying I make 16:1.

>I learned though that using cells in a yard full of second-rate drones like we find in such colonies is not a recipe for the best success.

That's why I think it's worth the time spent raising my own queens in an area where I can control the drone population. 

>Two weeks of suffering. 

Waaa...  


>My total beekeeping hours last summer were -- maybe -- 12 hours, total. 

Allen, I wouldn't know what to do with myself. Type A+ don't ya know. Gotta go, gotta go, gotta go right now! 12 hours a day is more my cup of tea.

>That is the acid test.

Maybe. Perhaps the acid test is whether or not you have to purchase bees or split up honey producers to restock what you lost in the winter. 


>Have you considered stand up comedy? 

Constantly.
Mike


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> You might get 8 to 1 if you split up good strong colonies in May, and then again in July. Surely you could if you gave them laying queens, but probably chancy with walk away splits. And you are in Alberta.


The author of the MDA technique puts alot of emphasis on having queens raised _after_ July 20th. According to him, queens raised after that continue producing brood well into the end of September, while queens produced before then seem to let the brood size die down by that time. This increases your chances of overwintering, especially when you are doing splits in July with so few many frames.

I'm not saying he is correct, just trying to point out why he thinks his method works.

As for myself, I know if I had a good summer I could do a 2:1 split twice a summer. That would be an overall 4:1 split for the year. I don't think I could do 8:1, let alone 16:1 without 'his technique.' But, there is only one way to find out. It's easy to disclaim what you haven't tried.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

Up our way, the opposite is the lore. 

Queens begin laying in a new colony after the end of July are thought to be likely to not reliably raise the necessary winter bees, so wintering such hives is considered iffy. We see that with late swarms, too. 

The problem is that these rules are not absolute and it is entirely possible to have great success for a year or two. That is long enough to get some false confidence and to make promises and spend money you do not yet have. The next year can be a wipe-out for the gung-ho splitter while the more conservative operators do not experience the same problem.

As with many things, the worst thing that can happen to a beginner is to have great success in the first several tries. That is why the graybeards are saying, "Careful".


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

What do you mean by "up our way"? Where are you located?

The author if the article is located on the 43rd parallel. I'm not talking about my location.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

Read my post again. All the way to the bottom.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Specialkayme said:


> The author of the MDA technique puts alot of emphasis on having queens raised _after_ July 20th.


Isn't that having queens _newly-mated _after _June_ 20th? That's what his paper called "I. M. N. SYSTEM OF QUEEN REARING" says. That gets laying queens into those July splits.

I've been reading his material and find it interesting enough to try next year. (When I hopefully have enough strong hives to dedicate for that purpose.)

Wayne


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I could have remembered incorrectly, but I thought the emphasis was having queens that _emerge_ after June 20th. You are correct, I did not mean July 20th though. It is June.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Specialkayme said:


> What do you mean by "up our way"? Where are you located?


He is from Alberta, Canada.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Lol, thanks, I couldn't exactly figure it out. I'm assuming you live close to the US border, as 90% of the canadian population lives within 20 miles of the US border. If that's the case your climate should be close to that of the 43rd parallel. If not, I don't know.


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

I'm around the 50th and I think he's 51.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

Download Google Earth and plug in the co-ordinates. You should see me waving at you.


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Anyone have any experience using Mel's OTS queen rearing method?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Update time!

I wished to be able to test the MDA Splitter Technique, using the timeline that I had previously disclosed on page one, using one hive and compare the results. I'm not sure that I will be able to do that this year.

According to Mel, I needed to start one week before my swarm date. My average swarm date is April 1st, meaning I should start on March 25th. This year everything has been behind, so I figured I should start about April 1st. 

I checked my hives today, and things don't look promising. I have three hives to choose from. One of them was so strong (and ready to swarm soon) that I was afraid if I only removed 2 frames of brood with the queen and left the other 38 frames (shallow frames, it's 4 shallows deep and I bought it that way) would likely swarm after they raised their own queen. Fearful that I would lose half the hive, I just did a walk away split. I don't see how a hive with only two supers of brood would be likely to swarm durring a walkaway split, but we will see. 

The second hive was doing so well, that they already swarmed. I missed it :do'h:

The third hive has potential, but isn't growing at an alarming rate. I might end up going back and using this hive to test the technique, but I'm afraid if I used my weakest hive to test it, I'm setting up for bad results.

So I might end up using this third hive to test it, but I might just wait till next year. I'll keep you guys updated though!


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

If I've understood the goals of the MDA Splitter method correctly, from those two frames of brood (or whatever number you did take out), you want to end up with 4 nuc boxes that you can overwinter. Then next season, you create your 'power house honey hive'.

It seems to me that you could probably get more than 1 'power house honey hive' the way you are going.

I don't think that you need to strictly follow the methodology as long as you get the desired result.

What I liked about the method, besides the productivity, was that it offered a way for someone to go no-treatment and select surviving nucs for no-treatment beekeeping.

Each year, some hives remain in production, while others are used for selection of stock.

Of course, you need to have the right equipment or its analogues.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

WLC said:


> If I've understood the goals of the MDA Splitter method correctly, from those two frames of brood (or whatever number you did take out), you want to end up with 4 nuc boxes that you can overwinter. Then next season, you create your 'power house honey hive'.
> 
> It seems to me that you could probably get more than 1 'power house honey hive' the way you are going.


You are correct WLC. That is the goal of the original MDA Splitter method. 

However, as I have been talking with Mel, I advised him of my nectar flow dates. He advised that I depart from the original method, and then he helped me create the calendar that is on page one.

The goal for me would be not to get four nucs out of one in the beginning of the season, but instead to have one queenless strong hive along with one two frame nuc in the beginning of the season. This will allow my queenless hive to gather as much nectar as possible while not using any to feed brood, as the queen mates. Then, in the mid to late summer, I do a four way split with the former queenless hive, and a fourway split with the resulting hive from the two frame nuc.


So, because of my location the MDA technique becomes slightly altered.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Yes, I looked over the calendar.

As I've said elsewhere, we are in an El Nino year.

That will most likely change your nectar/pollen production dates significantly by as much as weeks depending on where you live in the US.

In the south, that could mean alot of rain. It might also get cooler than normal.

So, you might want to rely on observed conditions rather than a strict timetable.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

WLC said:


> So, you might want to rely on observed conditions rather than a strict timetable.


That's what I have been doing. The calendar that is posted is based upon my _average_ dates. That's why I pushed back starting instead of on March 25th to April 3rd.


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## tct1w (Jun 6, 2008)

Update,I started my splits on march 30th. Everything is going per schedule. I did get skunked and missed one queen,so one hive still has the old queen. She is a good layer,only a year old so not to disappointed. Whoever is doing this if you are feeding in nucs,do keep an eye on space in your nucs. The old girls will fill the space quick even with two undrawn frames. Moved one the 10 framer yesterday and going to do the other tomorrow. I think this just might work. Peace Dave


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Good to hear you're doing better than me! Keep us updated.


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## tct1w (Jun 6, 2008)

Checked the 3 or the hives I took away. Two are now 10 framers,good brood nectar and no SHB. Now to the queenless split. Its still in a 5 frame nuc but I checked today,saw what was a queen cell with a small hole in the bottom which I took for the first queen that was born stung this one. Anyhow,no eggs and didnt look real hard for the queen. Hopefully she was out on a mating flight. By my math I should see eggs on the 30th or at least by the second or third. That gives a few days for bad weather. Crossing my fingers. I sure dont wont laying workers. Peace Dave


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Mel is overwintering nucs in deeps and is feeding them with the honey from his powerhouse hives (honey bank) and topping all the nucs off with a candy board and pollen patty and a queen excluder attached.
He based his studies and work from Dolittle's and continued where he had left off.
Mel is a super nice guy and has responded to everyone of my dumb green questions via email.
I am converting my total operation to Mel's methods and am also saying a prayer as well! 
He has some very good points about breaking the mites cycle for controling mites without meds.
His powerhouse hives he lets fade away to the mites and replaces them with the nucs he made the season before.
Overall, it sounds like Mel is studying bees and different methods to become a med free beekeeper and to promote a larger healthier bee population in the country and does not worry about honey production or commercial pollination like a lot of us on this forum do. 
Just my two cents worth for all that is worth, wife says not much!


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Mtn. Bee said:


> Overall, it sounds like Mel is studying bees and different methods to become a med free beekeeper and to promote a larger healthier bee population in the country and does not worry about honey production or commercial pollination like a lot of us on this forum do.


I don't know that his methods couldn't be worked into a successful honey production plan. I will be trying his method next spring with a number of overwintered nucs. But, since I'm counting on honey to help support me through my my "retirement" a few years down the road, worrying about honey production is not just an idle pastime. A system has to work or be abandoned. 

Wayne


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

I agree with you Wayne as I am in the same boat as you!

I have to sell honey or I am donating a lot of money to hang out with the bees!


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## tct1w (Jun 6, 2008)

I will let you know on the honey situation. Two hives,same location,one with old queen and one making the queen per the instructions on the first page of this thread. I have also wondered about it. The main flow is just starting here. Tulip poplar. The populations of bees right now in both hives are about the same. Of course one with brood and one not. Thinking about it the main purpose of the queenless hive or soon to have a laying queen(she should be laying by the 30th),is to collect nectar for stores. Just thinking out loud. More foragers,more honey. Dont know. Only time will tell 
Peace Dave


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## tct1w (Jun 6, 2008)

Ok here are my findings so far. Did the splits by date, a week off but here we go. One of the queens of the three hives I couldnt fiind but did take brood with eggs and that double nuc has a laying queen. That nuc was taken to a location with the OQ hives about four miles away. She was the first to start laying of the NQ and is laying well. To early to really have opinion about how well her laying pattern is.
Ok the OQ hives are on the flow but with 3 yr old queens are not too impressive,but they are as of a week ago laying and hives are bringing in nectar. Now in a double 10 frame deeps. 
Ok the 2 hives I took the frames out of and had them make a new queen here at the house are as follows. One has a laying queen. Took a good thirty days. Weird weather here. Cool and real windy in those 30 day. Very little honey in these supers. The other hive has a queen but as of day 31 had no eggs that I could observe,but definitely had a queen Will give her a couple days to see what she is doing. Ok both of these hives of course have no emerging brood. Just probably one capped today. Bee population is a little light and not bringing in much nectar as of 5/1 In comparison the hive next to these that I couldnt find the queen is working on the second super. 
So in conclusion I will see if the one queen is laying,if not get a laying queen. Dont want to wait to add a frame of eggs and let them make a queen. Too long. Will probably not continue on and split again,but might. Will requeen the OQ hives in June and go into winter with double the hives that I started with this spring. So success,yes, but did lose honey production in my opinion. But once again,now six hives. Started with three. Hope this is some info and not too long Peace Dave


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## tct1w (Jun 6, 2008)

Ok last update I think on the first splits. All have laying queens and brood. I will not split again and so far honey is down big time in the hives that had to requeen themselves,but on the bright side have doubled the my hives,and still will have decent honey. One more split off of my strongest hive after the flow and Im going to leave them alone. Hopefully go into winter with seven strong. Peace Dave


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## kbenz (Feb 17, 2010)

any updates on this in NC??


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## tct1w (Jun 6, 2008)

yeah took me by surprise when I saw this thread appear again. Yes,all overwintered well. Backing up had a ok flow on the tulip poplar-blackberry last year. I took four or the hives to the mnts for sourwood and had a good excess on two of the four hives. About eight gallons and the deeps were full. Ok my thought was to requeen the hives that didnt produce any surplus,so I did in mid August. Started splits again two week ago in nucs. So overall walk away splits like this are great for increasing your hive count. Now on the quality of queens I think the early ones,at least in my experience last year,didnt get mated well and werent the best layers.This year time will only tell. Hope this helps Dave


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

There was some confusion asking about Mel's dates for the post-solstice queens:

On the two instruction PDFs I am reading, Mel says (in his climate area) to split into queenless nucs on July 5th if you cut the cell walls to direct them to raise new queens. Make the nucs on July 16th if you are introducing ripe Qcells. He says that since these new queens will be mating after the June 2oth solstice, it will break the mite breeding cycle.

Dave, thanks for bringing your results up to date.


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## bnm1000 (Oct 12, 2011)

Anyone still using this method? I am going to try it on two hives this spring.


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## Swiftwisdom (Dec 9, 2013)

My 2 cents...I have contacted Mel directly on several occasions and asked him to clarify some things, and he spent ample time answering my questions. Note- although the web site provides all the basics, and plenty of it (for free), his book however addresses everything there and ties together any loose ends, and furthermore the book elaborates on the various times and purposes of the OTS method. The web site great m, but does bot his system complete justice. I personally have had sucess with his method. Admittedly, there is a learning and implementing curve, but once I had developed a proper eye for picking the right frame and the right age of larva (not eggs) I was splitting with 9 out of 10 sucess rate. And the failures were mainly because I either smushed a capped Q cell or I came back and checked either too early or too late from when the queen hatched. On a final note, I learned the hard way, using his system, one must be diligent and live by a calandar, other wise you will loose a lot of your nucs to swarming if you don't catch all those emerging quees in time. In a nut shell, it's less than half the work and hassle involved with grating, and you don't need to purchase anything new. And best off all, you DONT need a second yard or apiary, it can all be done right in the same location!


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Been using his method for 3 years now, haven't treated since (except brood breaks for you purists).
Swiftwisdom is right, his new book is much easier to follow and has a better layout of his experience and the methods he's developed.


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## bnm1000 (Oct 12, 2011)

Thanks for the update- I purchased his book, and he was generous enough to answer an email about the difference in timing for my area. I am a hobbyist, I just enjoy the bees. If I get honey that is great, if I get too much honey it is a pain in the rear! Same thing about the hives, I like to keep around 3 - 5 and if I split too many, would need to get rid of some. 

The book makes a lot of sense, but a lot of theories seem logical but don't always pan out. It is nice to hear from some others who have tried it in practice.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

does anyone have a photo of a frame that has been 'notched'?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

How about this ...








Photo Credit and description


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

perfect rader, should have know i could count on you. 

in this photo the notch was made horizontally removing the bottom of one or more cells containing just hatched larvae. is this how those of you that have used the technique have done it?


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

That's it, what your doing is pulling the old cocoons away so they can start the cell. Do any amount on the frames that have larvae, I do up to six notches per frame as it's up to the bees to make the choice (I usually get a couple cells right). I don't even bother notching if it's fresh wax, the cells deform easy.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

rwlaw said:


> That's it, what your doing is pulling the old cocoons away so they can start the cell. Do any amount on the frames that have larvae, I do up to six notches per frame as it's up to the bees to make the choice (I usually get a couple cells right). I don't even bother notching if it's fresh wax, the cells deform easy.


thanks rwlaw. when you get multiple cells, do you leave them all or cull them down to one or two?


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Swiftwisdom said:


> ...In a nut shell, it's less than half the work and hassle involved with grating, and you don't need to purchase anything new.


What would you _need_ to purchase for grafting?


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Squarepeg, two or if i think one cell looks iffy, I'll leave three on a frame.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

rwlaw said:


> Squarepeg, two or i think one cell looks iffy I'll leave three on a frame.


understood, many thanks.


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## Swiftwisdom (Dec 9, 2013)

shannonswyatt said:


> What would you _need_ to purchase for grafting?


Hi Shannon, more or less, you would need the filling items: 
1. A cell starter (that's basically two nuc boxes with some minor modifications necessary).
2. A grafting frame- which you're basically using a deep sized frame with some modification to accommodate plastics cups.
3. Plastic cups- which you would typically have to purchase, unless you make your own IF you have the wax and know how to make them.
4. Grafting tools- the Chinese made kind are the least expensive and easiest to use. You can get them on Amazon.
5. Queen cell protectors for when your ready to transfer the developed cells to your finishers nucs. 
6. Finisher nucs- can't really call that an added expense as most beeks will already have plenty of those. 
7. A huge magnifying glass to find the proper aged larva (optional if you have very good eyesight). I have grafted right out in the apiary, but my hands haven't been as steady as they once were, and my eyes just don't see up close that well any more either. 
There are variations to this list, some simpler, some more fancy, depending on one's particulars. 

I'm not suggesting it's all that expensive, it really isn't, I'm merely suggesting it's not necessary. Unless you just want to try. Hope that helped or at least answered your question.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Thanks Swiftwisdom. The reason that I put the wood need in italics is that you really don't have to purchase much unless you want to. We were in for less than the cost of a single queen when we made up some this past summer. I had talked to my cousin about raising some queens in the spring after I attended a class, but his enthusiasm seemed to die down a bit after that. Just before the Forth of July he asked about it and I was caught flat footed without purchasing anything. I had planned on purchasing the frame, cups, grafting tools and some other bits, but it was too late for that. Time to get to the table saw.

The only purchased equipment was a queen excluder for the finisher, but we already had that. But there was some construction in the process. Made the grafting frame from some wood scraps, made cups from wax and a wooden dowel, used some paper clips that I hammered different shapes into to make the grafting tool since I wasn't sure of the best shape. For the starter we made a screened box to keep it ventilated. When putting the cells in the nucs my cousin put some aluminum foil around them cells. I used two pair of readers for magnification. The dual readers with a flashlight was probably the worst of the whole thing. My eyes suck too! We grafted on a picnic table and I had to hold the flashlight in one hand and pick the larva out, and next year I will have an optivisor for sure, and probably a frame rest to get the frame at a bit of an angle and more secure. I have since purchased a bunch of Chinese Grafting tools really cheaply to give them a shot this coming year as well. The home made cups were excellent. When I made them up I thought they looked pretty bad, but we put them in the starter the night before grafting and they fixed them all up into perfect queen cups which was really cool.

Grafting wasn't that hard to do, but it seems really tricky when you start reading about it. Lots of little things you have to do to get it right, but I learned a whole lot really quickly (that seems to be how things go in beekeeping!) My guess is that most people on this forum could graft if they gave it a shot. The only problem I see is that most backyard beeks probably don't have the hives to make-up the starter and finishers, and then after that they have to figure out what to do with the queen cells. If you only need a half dozen or so it makes more sense to just purchase them. Unless of course you have a fantastic queen and would like to see how her daughters would work out.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What would you need to purchase for grafting?

A lot of things would be handy. You don't NEED to purchase anything. You can make a dowel (or find an appropriate 5/16" or so stick) and dip it to make cells. You can carve a toothpick or hammer a copper wire to make a grafting "needle". But it's easier to buy some things if you have the cash to do so. JZBZ cells will save you dipping. A Chinese grafting tool is easier to use (I would buy several as some don't work well... quality control is not good but the design is). Some cell bars can be purchased that are already done.


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## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

Where can I purchase a copy of Mel's book? What is the exact title of the book?

Thanks in advance!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

At his website - see this page: http://www.mdasplitter.com/buy-book.php


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## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks for the quick reply!


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Squarepeg, what I am doing for most of my increase is splitting as per Mel, and then growing as per Michael Palmer in 2 storey nucs for winter. 
What I have observed is sometimes the queen cells growing from the "notched cells" don't look as big as those the bees have started themselves. I leave the 2 biggest looking cells I can find for each split - whether they are from notched cells or not.
I find that for timing it works best about a week before that I think swarming is going to start. I judge that by: Using the "Swarm thread" that runs every year here on Beesource, observing colony congestion, and the weather and local conditions.
PS. I like Mel's book.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHnZAYVACpI


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood adrian, good post. i plan to give the notching a try this spring when i do my cut down splits just prior to swarm season.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

I just attended a lecture that Mel did last weekend. One thing I noticed about all of the comments here is that everyone is talking about the effects on honey production. When Mel started the lecture he stated straight out that he sells bees. He actually only talked about honey production briefly stating when you take the old queen and two frames of brood from the parent colony and notch frames *the strong queen less colony* will pack on the honey while they raise queens because they have a brood break and nothing else to do (until there is a new mated queen). 

The message I took away was not "I can get 16:1 splits on my hives", rather it was "hey, I can raise my own queens and have the freedom to split them several ways to get nucs to over winter". Mel uses two frames of brood per split BUT you don't have to do that. You can use three, four, or five. Then you would have much stronger spits that you might not have to feed. I'm sure everyone has their own take on the information.


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## 779Farm (Feb 2, 2015)

I use this method to promote my hives. I can get 2:1 easily and at best 4:1. Drone production is my weak link. Winter survival varies. I chose this method because I use small cell comb of 4.9mm. I have noticed smaller queens using OTS as opposed to package bees that I have purchased. One year I split three individual hives into six nucs. All but one queen turned out very yellow, but most worker bees were a healthy black. I thought it odd.


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## Slee (Jun 22, 2009)

I would love to see the plan.


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## Thershey (Mar 12, 2014)

I tried Mels OTS system last year with one hive, it worked really well. From just one round with one (3 box, 10 Frame, medium) hive I created three new colonies all grew into double 10f mediums, requeened the original colony as well as another underperforming queen. All over wintered and are very strong at this point. 

Another HUGE BENEFIT to Mels system that often gets missed is that it allows him to be virtually MITE FREE. The timing of his two brood breaks per year completely manage the mites for him.

For me it was freedom. Freedom from buying bees, freedom from panicking about a queen losss, freedom from worrying about winter losses. Creating my own Nucs, complete with robust Queens catapulted the joy I get from beekeeping to a level I could not have imagined. 

You can fake it a little with info from his website but I just finished reading the book twice in the last few days, it's worth twice the price I paid for it.


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## Mbartole (Nov 11, 2014)

I have 2 hives coming through the winter strong. i hope to keep them that way. I'm glad to see someone else in the PNW has done this successfully. It sounds too good to be true so I'm not getting overly excited, but any issues will likely arise from weather or my own in experience. I don't have grand goals of honey production or selling bees, just to take my apiary from 2 hives to 3 hives with 3 support nucs.

Here's my plan, but I'll be leveraging my local beekeeping club for help in the dates and our typical swarming dates.

If anyone sees any issues or potential problems. Feed free to comment. Lots to learn here.


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## Thershey (Mar 12, 2014)

Yo


Mbartole said:


> I have 2 hives coming through the winter strong. i hope to keep them that way. I'm glad to see someone else in the PNW has done this successfully. It sounds too good to be true so I'm not getting overly excited, but any issues will likely arise from weather or my own in experience. I don't have grand goals of honey production or selling bees, just to take my apiary from 2 hives to 3 hives with 3 support nucs.
> 
> Here's my plan, but I'll be leveraging my local beekeeping club for help in the dates and our typical swarming dates.
> 
> If anyone sees any issues or potential problems. Feed free to comment. Lots to learn here.


You're on the right track but I'm not so sure I would dispatch the original (overwintered queens) in May. I'd probably wait till July, which gives you post solstice queens that will lay hard deeper into fall. It also gives the hive a 30 day break from raising brood in a dearth, saving 40-60 lbs of stores.

Lastly, this year is on track to be an anomaly for timing, we've got a ways to go yet but we're way ahead of schedule. Heck, I've got drones flying already down here. I'm afraid if we try to wait till one week before "typical" swarm season, it may be too late. Gotta watch the bees closely and use your gut I guess.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Thershey said:


> For me it was freedom. Freedom from buying bees, freedom from panicking about a queen losss, freedom from worrying about winter losses. Creating my own Nucs, complete with robust Queens catapulted the joy I get from beekeeping to a level I could not have imagined.
> 
> .


:thumbsup:


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## mgstei1 (Jan 11, 2014)

I bought his book also a few weeks ago. I read and reread and and every time I get some tip or advice that I overlooked in earlier reads.
Lots and lots of great info.
I'm gonna quit looking for the queens and just do the Dolittle method with the queen excluder. I have a couple of extremely mean and strong hives(honey producing) so I'm gonna go for as many splits on these and see if I can get up to 16 nucs off each before fall for overwintering and see how they do in 2016 next spring. 
Maybe more if I salvage the extra queen cells instead of pinching the more than 2 on each split.
Hackleguy you are right. Total freedom with the bees from here on out.
Gotta keep some detailed records and especially around the summer solstice for my location.


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