# CAPA Report: 58% overwinter colony mortality in Ontario.



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Why?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

25% is the average Canadian overwinter loss for this past winter.

I'm sure they're looking into the 58% loss figure.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

pretty close to what the state of ohio reported in the bee informed survey. other northern states with similar results.

http://beeinformed.org/2014/06/state-by-state-colony-loss-2013-2014/

tough winter that last one.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

"As of February 27, Winnipeg was experiencing the second coldest winter in 75 years, the coldest in 35 years and with snowfall total being 50 per cent more than normal."

from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_North_American_cold_wave


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> 25% is the average Canadian overwinter loss for this past winter.
> 
> I'm sure they're looking into the 58% loss figure.


I meant, why do you say that this is unsustainable? It isn't like those losses are expected to be the new normal. It isn't like those colonies that were lost are not going to be recouped, reoccupied. The numbers are recoverable.

Higher losses than normal, but not unrecoverable from.

The terms "sustainable" and "unsustainable" are so passe in my opinion. People do what they need to do to carry on.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> pretty close to what the state of ohio reported in the bee informed survey. other northern states with similar results.
> 
> http://beeinformed.org/2014/06/state-by-state-colony-loss-2013-2014/
> 
> tough winter that last one.


Yup, an NY was about 50%. These numbers came from stationary beekeepers and I don't think that all that many were surveyed.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

polar vortex?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>"As of February 27, Winnipeg was experiencing the second coldest winter in 75 years, the coldest in 35 years and with snowfall total being 50 per cent more than normal."
>polar vortex? 

Global warming?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

weird weather indeed michael.

we've had above average rainfall these past two years while the west coast is in severe drought.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> Global warming?


Ask me again in 50,000 years.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Climate change.

Just wait till the Southern Ocean Oscillation really kicks in.

No, sqkcrk, you won't have to wait that long. Maybe 20-30 years tops.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I really hate it that I can't address you by your first name. Just saying so. Not pressuring.

Maybe so, but I didn't think that enough established and identifiable change would happen that soon.

So why is what we all are doing sustainable?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, according to the models, since we're over 400 ppm CO2 at this point, we should hit the tipping point of 450 ppm CO2 before 2050.

So, the type of loss numbers we're seeing aren't as bad as they can get.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What happened to that guy from VT, Bill McKibben maybe?, and his 360 campaign. Wasn't that CO2? Did someone raise the number?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I think that the main issue is still that Ontario beekeepers have reported a 58% winter mortality for this year after a 36% (if I recall correctly) winter mortality last year.

If it keeps up, many will throw in the towel.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

WLC said:


> If it keeps up, many will throw in the towel.


Why would you expect "it to keep up"? :scratch: :s

As you can see, winter mortality average jumps around, and the overall trend over the last six years is a *decrease *in winter mortality.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WLC said:


> If it keeps up, many will throw in the towel.


And then prices will go up and many will jump back in.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

They're having a hard time in Ontario.

In fact, they're considering regulating the use of neonicotinoid pesticides to further reduce mortality.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> I think that the main issue is still that Ontario beekeepers have reported a 58% winter mortality for this year after a 36% (if I recall correctly) winter mortality last year.
> 
> If it keeps up, many will throw in the towel.


What makes you think it will keep up? And if it does, do you really think no one will fill the niche?


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

WLC said:


> They're having a hard time in Ontario.
> 
> 
> In fact, they're considering regulating the use of neonicotinoid pesticides to further reduce mortality.


Since you stated this was a fact, would you give us a reference to this "fact"?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Tough place to winter bees, unless they are stored away out of the weather. 
Thing was, It was the cold long spring that got most...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Haraga said:


> Since you stated this was a fact, would you give us a reference to this "fact"?


Probably read it on the internet somewhere


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Oh Ian I don't know why you would say that😳


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

WE are on the internet.

I've read about it on the Canadian media.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WLC said:


> WE are on the internet.


 so funny


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

WLC said:


> WE are on the internet.
> 
> I've read about it on the Canadian media.


Well if you read about it on the canadian media, it must be true. OR NOT.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

From the OBA:

http://www.ontariobee.com/sites/ontariobee.com/files/OBA Over Winter Loss Media Release.pdf

The OBA has softened its approach a bit. They were calling for a total ban, now they are asking that neonics only be used in an IPM strategy. The government is was/proposing a permit/licensing system.

The data hasn't been published yet, but the losses correspond more with geographic location and proximity to corn and soybeans then to beekeeper experience. Some the beekeepers with 50-70% losses had 100's or 1000's of colonies.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

zhiv9 said:


> The data hasn't been published yet, but the losses correspond more with geographic location and proximity to corn and soybeans then to beekeeper experience. Some the beekeepers with 50-70% losses had 100's or 1000's of colonies.


interesting. did it have anything to do with inadequate control of seed dust during planting?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Preliminary/Anecdotal data from this season indicate that the new low dust lubricant isn't much better.

I have also heard some anecdotal reports of very early kills, well before corn planting when only coltsfoot on the edges of fields and ditches was blooming. This seems to indicate the take up of neonics the following year by wildflowers be it from planting dust or runoff.

I think we have reached the point where we should be pulling the temporary approvals on these products and proving they are safe crop by crop. They were approved here based on studies done with canola, and from the generally positive reports from beekeepers out west, there is something different about neonic coated canola vs corn and soybeans.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very interesting adam. any idea when the data will be released?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

From the OBA link above...

“Ontario beekeepers have been devastated by exposure of colonies to these highly toxic pesticides,”
says OBA president, Dan Davidson. “Not only do they kill bees outright, but exposure in the hive through
contaminated pollen almost guarantees they will not survive the winter. Beekeepers are reporting
significant summer losses, as well, as a result of pesticide contamination.”

Ian and Haraga, would you like to respond to Dan Davidson's statement?

Or, are you going to dismiss it out of hand as 'the internet'?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

It's hard to say. The PMRA report on bee kills for this season won't come out until 6 months or a year after the season end. I am not sure if OMAFRA will release the map of bee kills locations vs corn and soy bean plantings. For obvious reasons, they are cautious with maps that could reveal beeyard locations to closely. This sort of overlay really only demonstrates correlation, not causation.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Insecticides kill bees. Who is surprised by that? :s


Before you agitate for a ban, consider what will replace what will replace what you want to ban. Will the overall situation be _*better*_? :scratch: Are we going to then be using organophosphates?


And forget promoting RNAi - its not available and may _never_ be.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Insecticides kill bees. Who is surprised by that? :s
> Before you agitate for a ban, consider what will replace what will replace what you want to ban. Will the overall situation be _*better*_? :scratch: And forget promoting RNAi - its not available and may _never_ be.


They banned neonics in Italy for maize seeds, and the colony losses dropped to low levels afterwards.

I don't know what product they used after that, but they're still growing maize.

Things got better after the ban, not before.

When, oh when, will you stop using the same old tired strawman argument.

As for Monsanto's RNAi product for corn rootworm, it's ready and waiting for approval.

It's the regulatory framework that's dragging things out, not the technology.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Pesticides kill bees. Not a surprise ... is it?
> Before you agitate for a ban, consider what will replace what will replace what you want to ban. Will the overall situation be _*better*_? :scratch:


It's a good point. I would like to at least see an IPM approach taken. The nearly 100% prophylactic use of these pesticides is a step backwards. A grain farmer should at least have to make a conscious choice to apply a pesticide - right now if we doesn't want coated corn or soybean seed he has to either settle for a inferior variety or special order is seed months ahead. The coated seed should come at a higher price as well.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

WLC said:


> From the OBA link above...
> 
> “Ontario beekeepers have been devastated by exposure of colonies to these highly toxic pesticides,”
> says OBA president, Dan Davidson. “Not only do they kill bees outright, but exposure in the hive through
> ...


In response, I don't know Dan. I do know that neonics are used all around me and I don't have any problems. Name me one pesticide that won't harm bees? In fact name me one thing that won't harm bees if you put enough of it in the hive? In FACT if you were to put too much water in a hive it would kill them. My advice to all beekeepers remains the same, if you feel that the environment that your bees are exposed to may cause them harm then MOVE THEM AWAY FROM DANGER. It's that simple.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

zhiv9 said:


> It's a good point. I would like to at least see an IPM approach taken. The nearly 100% prophylactic use of these pesticides is a step backwards. A grain farmer should at least have to make a conscious choice to apply a pesticide - right now if we doesn't want coated corn or soybean seed he has to either settle for a inferior variety or special order is seed months ahead. The coated seed should come at a higher price as well.


I respectfully disagree with your last sentence. Coated seeds cost more than they should already.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Haraga, not so fast bubb.

Once OBA members started confirming that they are having problems in Ontario, and they are working on the neonic issue, your only response is 'move'?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Haraga said:


> I respectfully disagree with your last sentence. Coated seeds cost more than they should already.


I maybe should have been clearer. I was saying that coated seed wasn't expensive enough, just that it should be more expensive than uncoated seed - it should never be "free" to apply a pesticide. At a minimum it should be a costly necessity.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Well now Victor, now that we are on a first name basis, I will respond to you. If one truly believes that his/her bees are in danger for ANY reason I believe one should move them immediately. Did I make myself clear?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Haraga said:


> In response, I don't know Dan. I do know that neonics are used all around me and I don't have any problems. Name me one pesticide that won't harm bees? In fact name me one thing that won't harm bees if you put enough of it in the hive? In FACT if you were to put too much water in a hive it would kill them. My advice to all beekeepers remains the same, if you feel that the environment that your bees are exposed to may cause them harm then MOVE THEM AWAY FROM DANGER. It's that simple.


What are the neonics used on? corn? soybeans or is it canola? Bees forage over a 3km radius. I challenge you to find anywhere in southern Ontario that is 3km from neonic treated corn or soybeans. There is nowhere to go - unless you are looking for some company out west?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Who is Victor? Do you mean bubb?


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

zhiv9 said:


> I maybe should have been clearer. I was saying that coated seed wasn't expensive enough, just that it should be more expensive than uncoated seed - it should never be "free" to apply a pesticide. At a minimum it should be a costly necessity.


Adam, I haven't looked into the price difference between coated and uncoated seeds. Can you tell me? What I can tell you is that I will have uncoated alfalfa seed this fall for sale if anyone may be needing some.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Haraga said:


> Adam, I haven't looked into the price difference between coated and uncoated seeds. Can you tell me? What I can tell you is that I will have uncoated alfalfa seed this fall for sale if anyone may be needing some.


My understanding is that there was no cost difference between treated and untreated seed and that untreated corn seed wasn't readily available and had to be special ordered.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Adam, if you can convince monsanto to let us use our own seed, I would gladly seed canola without the treat on it. And then, if needed, I hope you wouldn't be offended if you found out that I may have had to spray and extra time or two?


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

zhiv9 said:


> What are the neonics used on? corn? soybeans or is it canola? Bees forage over a 3km radius. I challenge you to find anywhere in southern Ontario that is 3km from neonic treated corn or soybeans. There is nowhere to go - unless you are looking for some company out west?


Ontario is a huge province. I am sure you could move them to the northern part of the province where there is less farming.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

WLC said:


> As for Monsanto's RNAi product for corn rootworm, it's ready and waiting for approval.
> 
> It's the regulatory framework that's dragging things out, not the technology.


What difference does it make WHY the RNAi product is not approved? If its not available - ITS NOT AVAILABLE.


If the regulatory framework has not been established, how do you know that RNAi products will *ever *pass the final version of the rules? :scratch: Do you have ESP? :s :lpf:


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Haraga said:


> Ontario is a huge province. I am sure you could move them to the northern part of the province where there is less farming.


Sure, but my market is based on selling local honey to customers where I produce it. Why should I have to move because my neighbour has decided to take up a harmful practice. He hasn't even demonstrated that this practice is required. I guess the native pollinators, birds and aquatic wildlife should all move north too.

Anyways, I would just like to see farmers have to make the conscious choice to use neonics, not just use them by default.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

I understand your frustrations Adam but since you are not able to contain your livestock then it is up to you to ensure their well being. Now if that farmer was to apply a pesticide to some ground that you own then that is wrong. 
What would happen if the farmer said to you "I want your bees off of my land as I am allergic to your bees"? Your response would likely be "how do you know they are my bees?" 
Now if you were to go to the farmer and say "your pesticides are killing my bees". He would say how do you know it's my pesticides killing your bees?" Then he would say that's its easier to move your bees than it is my field.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Haraga said:


> Adam, if you can convince monsanto to let us use our own seed, I would gladly seed canola without the treat on it. And then, if needed, I hope you wouldn't be offended if you found out that I may have had to spray and extra time or two?


I don't have an issue with you seeding treated canola seed if you need to use it or spray if that's required. Just reasonably demonstrate that it is required for the success of the crop.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

I understand you Adam. We can go round and round on this. Let me ask you this. If your kids were playing in an area outside where there was a risk of injury, would you move them to a safe place or just leave their well being to chance?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Haraga said:


> Now if that farmer was to apply a pesticide to some ground that you own then that is wrong.


Exactly, so keep your seed dust and contaminated ground water to yourself.

Does it really have to be this way? Is there not some sort of compromise solution? Would a temporary ban or more restricted use be so bad while having a second look at not only its acute effects but chronic effects on honeybees, pollinators and aquatic wildlife. Restrict the ban/restrictions to corn and soybeans since canola doesn't seem to have the same effects?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Haraga said:


> I understand you Adam. We can go round and round on this. Let me ask you this. If your kids were playing in an area outside where there was a risk of injury, would you move them to a safe place or just leave their well being to chance?


Like a neighbours unfenced swimming pool? Sure I would move them away while making sure he addresses HIS safety issue. Property rights only go so far.

Anyways, we've beat this death.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Can you pinpoint who put seed dust on your land and can you show evidence of what is in the contaminated ground water?


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

All I can say is please move your bees out of harms way since the soil and water is already contaminated.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Haraga said:


> All I can say is please move your bees out of harms way since the soil and water is already contaminated.


I once chastised a beekeeper for keeping bees in an EU quarantine zone.

However, they had to spray that area by law.

I don't think that Ontario beekeepers really have the option of not keeping bees because someone is planting neonic corn and soy seed.

Imagine if you said the same thing to U.S. beekeepers. They'd start forming militias.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

WLC said:


> I once chastised a beekeeper for keeping bees in an EU quarantine zone.
> 
> However, they had to spray that area by law.
> 
> ...


If your neighbor that lives a mile away had an antifreeze spill and your dog came along, looking for a bone to take home and bury, and ingested the antifreeze, would you advocate for the ban on antifreeze or would you take steps to keep your remaining animals out of harms way? 
And Victor, I will tell anybody, it's our responsibility to keep our livestock safe. 
If one believes that neonics are killing ones bees then it is the responsibility of the livestock owner to remove their bees from the area that could cause them harm.
When a farmer comes to me and tells me that he is going to spray an insecticide that has been proven to kill my bees, I moved those bees ASAP. I don't jump on the bandwagon trying to get that chemical restricted or banned from use. 
Neonics work fine for us. Neonics have kept tens of thousands of acres from having to be sprayed by ground sprayers and aerial applicators.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Haraga:

First of all we are not now, nor will we ever be on a first name basis. It's WLC on the forum at all times.

Secondly, it's funny you mentioned antifreeze and dogs. I recently helped a friend put power back in his trailer, and the plumbing was still winterized. Guess what happened when he turned on the pump?

I made sure his two dogs couldn't jump up to the sink or get to the drain to get poisoned.

It's not the same. You can't compare the problems of a Canadian province to a few isolated poisoning incidents.

Beekeepers in Ontario need relief and a remedy.

I like the people of Toronto. They've always been good hosts to me.

I support them on this issue.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

WLC said:


> It's not the same. You can't compare the problems of a Canadian province to a [HIGHLIGHT]few isolated poisoning incidents.[/HIGHLIGHT]


What are you talking about? :scratch: Isolated incidents? :s



> [HIGHLIGHT]Antifreeze poisoning is one of the most common forms of poisoning in small animals, and this is because it is so commonly found in households.[/HIGHLIGHT] Antifreeze poisoning typically happens when antifreeze drips from a car’s radiator, where it is licked off the ground and ingested by a pet. Your dog may also come into contact with antifreeze that has been added to a toilet bowl. This occurs in homes where the residents will use antifreeze during the cold months to "winterize" their pipes. Even if you do not take this action in your own home, it is something to be aware of when visiting other homes, or when vacationing at a winter residence.
> 
> http://www.petmd.com/dog/emergency/digestive/e_multi_antifreeze_poisoning


Maybe you should get out more often! :lpf:


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Fella, I saved Nero and Ruby from that fate. My buddy loves them to death. I already know how he took Bear's death.

I get it.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

WLC said:


> Haraga, not so fast bubb.
> 
> Once OBA members started confirming that they are having problems in Ontario, and they are working on the neonic issue, your only response is 'move'?


Victor, since you addressed me by my first name, which happens to be Bubb, it is only common courtesy to show you the same warmth and respect.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Haraga said:


> Victor, since you addressed me by my first name, which happens to be Bubb, it is only common courtesy to show you the same warmth and respect.


Your elevator doesn't go to the top. (a Woody Allen reference)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I do think it would be nice if you, WLC, would address others by their screen name, since others are restricted to addressing you that way. Don't you think it would just be proper?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Another thread, same tactics, same story, same result.
Reminds me of the Brothers Gibb song.
http://youtu.be/3qlBsMoqccw


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## DJhoney (Jul 15, 2014)

Soooo this went from a thread on overwintering and a long cold winter to global warming then the old pesticide debate... I love you guys. The evolution of these threads is comical. Oh no I used the word evolution...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

WLC said:


> From the OBA link above...
> 
> “Ontario beekeepers have been devastated by exposure of colonies to these highly toxic pesticides,”
> says OBA president, Dan Davidson. “Not only do they kill bees outright, but exposure in the hive through
> ...


If the case Dan is presenting is true, then we better start compiling everything into a validated study. Start gathering those bees, start testing that pollen, wax, honey. Start directing our member fees into conducting some substantial diagnosis. He is guaranteeing his bees are not surviving the winter, because, he knows? or laying blame on the unknown,? nionic

If all this is true, lets get it figured out so we can solve the problem instead of pointing fingers. 

There is more factors at play here that we all have to realize.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Ian:

I think that the province of Ontario is working on the issue deliberately and rationally.

They're not following the precautionary principle.

It's more of a measured response.

I do support the IPM view. Why apply a pesticide when it isn't needed?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

What part about the Ontario beekeeping associations response to their high death loss is rational? This part? 
"exposure in the hive through
contaminated pollen almost guarantees they will not survive the winter"

same crops here, actually more of it concentrated around me... and my hives have been surviving winter...

he is guaranteeing something purely out of emotion. No rational thought there at all.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ian said:


> If the case Dan is presenting is true, then we better start compiling everything into a validated study. Start gathering those bees, start testing that pollen, wax, honey. Start directing our member fees into conducting some substantial diagnosis. He is guaranteeing his bees are not surviving the winter, because, he knows? or laying blame on the unknown,? nionic
> 
> If all this is true, lets get it figured out so we can solve the problem instead of pointing fingers.
> 
> There is more factors at play here that we all have to realize.


We did this in Ontario already and continue to submit bee and pollen samples and report the kills . Read the 2012 and 2013 PMRA reports. The PMRA reports agreed that the use of neonics was unsustainable. In 2013 they tried improved planting practices, this year it's a new seed lubricant that also isn't working. What is it that you are looking for? The dead bees test positive the pollen tests positive. A provincial bee inspector comes out to checks the hives for disease and excessive mites. An increase in average Ontario winter losses correlates with wide adoption of neonics as does a map overlay of concentrated corn and soybean planting reported kills. Why would we want to have a confrontational relationship with the farmers we rely on for yards? What else would you have us to do? And don't say move - that's as insulting as it is absurd.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

WLC said:


> Ian:
> 
> . Why apply a pesticide when it isn't needed?


Victor, that's an easy question to answer. It's so we can hopefully not have to drive over the plants with a ground sprayer any more than we have to. By driving over the plants they can be delayed in their growth and can cause the plants to mature later than the rest and then we will have green seeds in with the rest of the crop. Here we are only allowed two percent green in the sample.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

DJhoney said:


> Soooo this went from a thread on overwintering and a long cold winter to global warming then the old pesticide debate... I love you guys. The evolution of these threads is comical. Oh no I used the word evolution...


Both comical and predictable. I chuckled when I read the OP, wondering how long before the trap would be sprung.........19 posts. I would surely have taken the under.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Jim, I don't think that Ontario's problems are comical.

Nor are they meant to be 'handicapped'.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Adam why is moving your bees to a safe locational insult or absurd? Would that be an inconvenience to you? I do it several times a year. If your cattle came onto my alfalfa field and subsequently bloated who's fault would that be for the possible death of these cattle?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

zhiv9 said:


> We did this in Ontario already and continue to submit bee and pollen samples and report the kills .


Your speaking about the dust issue, not the systemic neonic issue. The seed lubricant has been changed, our farm used the same stuff.
What makes this dust issue so dramatic in Ontario, where as there are no reports in Manitoba? Manitoba grows soybeans, canola and corn.

I will assume Dan is speaking about the dust issue then?


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

zhiv9 said:


> Sure, but my market is based on selling local honey to customers where I produce it. Why should I have to move because my neighbour has decided to take up a harmful practice. He hasn't even demonstrated that this practice is required. I guess the native pollinators, birds and aquatic wildlife should all move north too.
> 
> Anyways, I would just like to see farmers have to make the conscious choice to use neonics, not just use them by default.


Adam you stated that your market was based on selling local honey to customers where you produce it. Do you inform these customers that your hives may be so full of pesticides that the bees in the hive could die at any time? Or do you market your honey as a safe and healthy product of the hive?


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Adam wouldn't it be a better marketing strategy to be able to tell your customers that your honey came from northern Ontario where neonics and other pesticides are not commonly used?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> What happened to that guy from VT, Bill McKibben maybe?, and his 360 campaign. Wasn't that CO2? Did someone raise the number?


 Yeah, when we hit 360 and nothing happened.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jim lyon said:


> Both comical and predictable.


Still reading, arn't you?  lol


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ian said:


> Your speaking about the dust issue, not the systemic neonic issue. The seed lubricant has been changed, our farm used the same stuff.
> What makes this dust issue so dramatic in Ontario, where as there are no reports in Manitoba? Manitoba grows soybeans, canola and corn.
> 
> I will assume Dan is speaking about the dust issue then?


Both are reported, kills during planting season and mid-season hive loss from chronic exposure.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

adam, many thanks for contributing. i appreciate your insight and it's interesting having actual actual field truths shared vs. hype and spin. it sounds like you guys are going about in a sensible manner. are you finding that politics is getting in the way? or do you think real progress is being made.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

zhiv9 said:


> Both are reported, kills during planting season and mid-season hive loss from chronic exposure.


That will be a first I have ever herd of documented reports from chronic exposure. Your talking canola now, or still corn...


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Adam what were your losses from neonics?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Haraga said:


> Adam why is moving your bees to a safe locational insult or absurd? Would that be an inconvenience to you? I do it several times a year. If your cattle came onto my alfalfa field and subsequently bloated who's fault would that be for the possible death of these cattle?


We have just been down this road. If you poison my cattle due to negligence you are still responsible, property rights aren't everything.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Adam would you please tell me what your bee losses were to neonics?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Corn and soybeans. I haven't heard of any issues with canola. The Ontario government actually has some funding I place this season to cover the chronic losses. There is some information on it here:

http://www.agricorp.com/en-ca/Programs/BeekeepersFinancialAssistanceProgram/Pages/Overview.aspx


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Haraga said:


> Adam would you please tell me what your bee losses were to neonics?


I wouldn't attribute any losses to neonics. I already live on the edge of "northern Ontario". I try to find yards near pasture and protected areas even if only on one side. This isn't possible further south of me where the bulk of the land is developed. I know beekeepers in these areas that are in their second of third year of 50% or greater losses.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

"Our handmade and packaged products embrace those founding principles that are so important to us:
Sustainable"

Adam, this is from your website. 
Have you had any bee loses from neonics?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> adam, many thanks for contributing. i appreciate your insight and it's interesting having actual actual field truths shared vs. hype and spin. it sounds like you guys are going about in a sensible manner. are you finding that politics is getting in the way? or do you think real progress is being made.


Politics always gets in the way. The OBA have recently softened their position to try to get some sort of dialog going. They were originally calling for a ban, but are now asking for some sort usage restriction based on licensing. I don't think this is an "Ontario" issue. I just think that we have better a better easier system for investigating and reporting incidents that doesn't come at a cost to the beekeeper. I am not sure that this exists in other states and provinces.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Adam please expand on this "better and easier system". 
You said "I don't think this is an Ontario issue". Please explain. 
Since you did not say how many hives or bees you have lost from neonics it leads me to believe that you haven't had any losses from neonics.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Haraga said:


> "Our handmade and packaged products embrace those founding principles that are so important to us:
> Sustainable"
> 
> Adam, this is from your website.
> Have you had any bee loses from neonics?


I answered your question and won't be having any further dialogue with you, if you are going to continue to question my ethics and my business practices. I was trying to have a constructive conversation about an important issue and instead you are attacking me. I have tried my best to be respectful - please try to do the same.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Haraga said:


> Adam please expand on this "better and easier system".
> You said "I don't think this is an Ontario issue". Please explain.
> Since you did not say how many hives or bees you have lost from neonics it leads me to believe that you haven't had any losses from neonics.


Read post 87.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Adam I am just trying to understand your posts. Please do not take my words as an attack in any way. If you feel I have attacked you in any way please accept my apology.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

zhiv9 said:


> Corn and soybeans. I haven't heard of any issues with canola. The Ontario government actually has some funding I place this season to cover the chronic losses.


I sit back and try to make any sense out of all this...

You would think those chronic losses would also follow suit with the canola seed treatment. After all, Neonic is being used on it all. And the bees actually target the canola plant, unlike the corn and soybean... So where is the chronic exposure from the corn and soybeans coming from, and not the canola?

Is it perhaps, all that corn and soybean acreage has nothing for the bees to eat? Where as the canola acreage does? 

Perhaps, mal nourishment is the culprit


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Adam I switched this iPhone over to the full site to look at post 87. I did not see that post. Sorry for the oversight. 
If I were a beekeeper in southern Ontario and I continued to have 50% losses I would be moving my bees ASAP. If the ground is contaminated like some have proven, wouldn't the losses continue even after neonics are banned?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Haraga said:


> Adam I am just trying to understand your posts.


you and me both. he is not experiencing the losses, but everyone else is, 50% in fact, and this leads a member of the OBA to state a "guarantee" hives will not survive the winter with this type (Neonic) of pesticide exposure... 
and that's called rational? I have Neonic treated crops surrounding every bee yard I run, canola, soybean, corn... 
there has to be more going on than just this...


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

I agree Ian. There must be some other pieces to the puzzle. My yards are always within distance of corn and canola plus peas, lentils and cereals. It would be nice if there was a database on what other chemicals are applied also on these crops and at what rates and dates so that maybe other pieces of the chemical puzzle can be put together where these losses occur. 
Personally I can attribute my overwinter losses to queens that gave it up late in the year and I was not on top of the problem. 
I know a couple guys that have higher than normal losses and the common denominator there is varroa along with multiple beekeepers running bees too close to each other. 
Bottom line neonics are always used around my bees and I don't have any problems. 
I have the luxury of isolation from managed hives and I hammer on the varroa. I switch up how I treat for mites and I treat spring and fall. The other thing I do religiously is feed feed feed. 
My style of beekeeping is not the most profitable and that's ok with me because I will make it up on the crops. 
I feel that if one can't do whatever is possible to raise the best livestock then one should find something else to do.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

The problem with banning neonics is the people on the bandwagon won't stop at having a ban in southern Ontario where the losses are. They will want it banned all across Canada. And once they get that done they will still have losses and they will move onto the next chemical until they get that banned also. I promise you if you give them an inch they will take a mile. If someone had a feedlot in southern Ontario that had year after year of unexplained high losses I guarantee that feedlot owner would sell that lot and start up another one somewhere else. But for some reason beekeepers dig their heels in and try to change things around them that they have no control over instead of getting the heck out of there.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

http://www.agricorp.com/en-ca/Programs/BeekeepersFinancialAssistanceProgram/Pages/Overview.aspx

Ian, I suspect if some of those farmers in ontario are like some of the farmers I know then they would have their hives set up to show some high loses to be eligible for the government programs that are available. In my area the farmers that work the programs all use the same accounting firm in Lethbridge. Hutterites are the biggest abusers. The fraud that works best is the farmer will have a couple companies set up so they can juggle the numbers around so that one company can show a loss and receive money from the tax payers. The farmers are not ashamed of it and openly talk about it. Trust me, you won't shame them. 
With the programs set up in Ontario, why wouldn't a beekeeper show high losses? 
I would bet money if there were no programs in place there would be a lot less bee losses. 
The government has it backwards. They should pay a bonus if the beekeepers could keep their losses below 20%. Better yet since Ontario is carrying 200+ BILLION in debt, they should stop spending the tax payers money on programs. It's time to sink or swim no matter where we live.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

We already discussed it in another thread. I had losses to neonics and I have had it tested in labs. Neonicotinoids can be found in the pollen, bees and even in the honey. Back in 2008 we have had 12,000 hives dead due to neonicotinoids and again, this was tested and proven in labs by the government. We even find neonicotinoids in our drinking water right from the tap. (For human consumption.) So it is spread all over the environment already. 

The main source of contamination is canola and corn. Yes, corn. Bees go for the pollen because there is not much else they can get pollen from. Looking out of my window all I see is corn up to the horizon. I already posted pictures of bees in corn collecting pollen.

We have varroa for about 40 years in Germany and I don't think beekeepers suddenly turned into being too dumb to treat against varroa. The beekeepers here cope with varroa for such a long time. 

Of course there must be a difference between you and us, you having no troubles with neonics and us that have. From the discussion in the other threads it was said that your hive products like honey are not contaminated, no neonics can be found. (Tim Eaves) I reckon this is they key. If there are enough alternative plants and flowers bees can forage on, bees can choose the non-contaminated pollen sources. And sure it will make a difference if they feed on contaminated only or mixed-contaminated forage.

Beekeepers should stand together and not beating each other up. You probably do not have trouble but others do.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Bernhard I have never seen a hive that died from neonics. Please tell me what a hive/dead or dying bees looks like that has or is dying from neonics. Thanks.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Bernhard I ask you these questions because I would like to lower the level of my ignorance. 
I would assume that if my hives were tested for neonics that tests would show neonics because it is all around in the fields. 
I understand that neonics were found in your losses. What were the indications that the bees died from neonics and not something else? Did you/ they conclude that the bees died from neonics because of residue found in the hives or was there something else that indicated neonic caused death?


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Ian said:


> I sit back and try to make any sense out of all this...
> 
> You would think those chronic losses would also follow suit with the canola seed treatment. After all, Neonic is being used on it all. And the bees actually target the canola plant, unlike the corn and soybean... So where is the chronic exposure from the corn and soybeans coming from, and not the canola?
> 
> ...


Ian I think malnourishment could be a factor. Maybe the bees are starving and the neonics contribute?


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Ian it would be interesting to bring a bunch of live hives out from the areas where the high deaths occurred in southern Ontario to the prairies and see if they survive.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

See some pictures and a video here: 

http://www.imkerdemo.de/bilder/bienensterben/
http://www.imkerdemo.de/bilder/pollenwaben-sind-sondermull/

Basicly you find dying bees with their tongue sticking out, trembling. With a more chronic exposure you find the colonies decreasing when they should increase in size. You find a lot of queen failures and you find entombed pollen. (Covered with propolis.) Most colonies fail not during winter but in summer. 

When moving the bees away and decontaminate the hive by throwing away the combs, especially pollen combs, the bees recover. 

I also cooperate and work with farmers that do not use neonics in their canola and do have less problems keeping the bees in a good shape. 

Hunters start to fight neonics, too, because they noticed that pheasant populations decrease on neonic farmland. Some big landowners start to ban neonics from their land, the farmers are not allowed to use it on their land. And believe me, those landowners and hunters are oldschool mostly, meaning they are not shy using pesticides. They simply saw what happens and started thinking. The oldtimers were grown up with chemicals and the chemical industry. If they start asking something must be going wrong.

We live in a densely populated area and there is no wilderness here, nothing. Also farmers start to cut the grass several times a year, so no meadows. No white clover anymore. Environmentalists start fighting "foreign" plants, yeah really. They cut down fields and wild patches with golden rod or other melliferious plants. The city administration uses glyphosat to kill those foreign plants.

So bees feed on neonic crops and we had poisonings in canola, in corn, in asparagus, in potatoes (yes...you won't believe it) and other rather unusual crops that get treated with neonics. 

From what I experience here it is almost impossible to winter bees properly where corn is grown. They banned neonics they said, but actually only 30 % of the use is affected by the ban. In corn the neonic thiacloprid is still in use. Once you move away from those crops you are fine. But it gets difficult, more and more, to move away. Where to?

I started to work with farmers that do not use neonics anymore and see, this works for both sides. There is no real need for neonics. Bees are fine again. That is enough prove for me.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Beekeepers should stand together and not beating each other up.


one of the best statements ever made on beesource.

to which i'll add: ... and not just about this issue.

our experiences vary because there are so darn many variables associated with the different outcomes we see with our bees. it isn't always black or white, i'm right and your wrong, either it's this or it's that....

more often than not the difference in experiences we have are because beekeeping truly is local, and the answer to most beekeeping questions should probably start with 'it depends......'.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ian said:


> I sit back and try to make any sense out of all this...
> 
> You would think those chronic losses would also follow suit with the canola seed treatment. After all, Neonic is being used on it all. And the bees actually target the canola plant, unlike the corn and soybean... So where is the chronic exposure from the corn and soybeans coming from, and not the canola?
> 
> ...


Perhaps, I have a couple of yards that work some canola as well with no ill effects. I don't know why it is different. I do know that Bayer used canola in the study to have the seed coating approved - this is a convenient coincidence. There have definitely been more reported incidents in areas where bees are more likely to work corn or soybean due to the lack of other forage. Malnourishment make every problem worse



Haraga said:


> The problem with banning neonics is the people on the bandwagon won't stop at having a ban in southern Ontario where the losses are. They will want it banned all across Canada.


I think IS true of some people/groups, but not fair statement of beekeepers in general or large beekeeping organizations. What's happening here with neonics is different. I think the inflexibility on the other side could just as easily lead to a total ban. At this point it would make sense to temporarily ban it on corn and soybeans while studies were done on those individual crops. The claim that it is safe on canola, so it must be safe on corn and soybeans is looking to be false. I believe the worst issues in Europe have been related to corn as well.



Haraga said:


> Ian, I suspect if some of those farmers in ontario are like some of the farmers I know then they would have their hives set up to show some high loses to be eligible for the government programs that are available.


The compensation program is brand new for this year and no-one knows if it will continue. The coverage for winter losses was one for each hive above a 40% loss - that's a lot of losses to absorb before compensation. The coverage for summer losses only applies if you report the kill and have PMRA, provincial apiarist and Ministry of the Environment out to inspect and take samples.



BernhardHeuvel said:


> We have varroa for about 40 years in Germany and I don't think beekeepers suddenly turned into being too dumb to treat against varroa. The beekeepers here cope with varroa for such a long time.


This is the grain farmers and seed coatings argument here too - we are bad beekeepers.



BernhardHeuvel said:


> Beekeepers should stand together and not beating each other up. You probably do not have trouble but others do.


Yes. I can see calling out one or too beekeepers that you think have questionable practices - but to look over and say - "those hundreds of beekeepers over there - they don't know what they are doing because I am not having a problem" There are 4000 beekeepers in Ontario. The OBA has a membership of around 700 - that isn't a large lobby when it comes to changing policy and compared to the financial clout of bayer and syngenta - we could use all the help we can get.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks for the dying hive explanation Adam. Since the soil and water is already saturated with neonics wouldn't the bees keep dying even if neonics were banned?
Years ago a friend went to Germany and when he came back he told me that the Germans were so fussy that they don't have weeds there. That was at least 25 years ago. I didn't believe him then. Hmm. 
Have you had any luck with the locals to make them stop killing the weeds? 
I wonder if man must resign to the fact that bees can't be kept just there anymore?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> We have varroa for about 40 years in Germany and I don't think beekeepers suddenly turned into being too dumb to treat against varroa. The beekeepers here cope with varroa for such a long time.


The use of neonic seed treatments have not changed for 15-20 years, what has changed is farming practices in general. Land cleared, wet lands drained, fields made larger and crop rotations shifting away from beekeeper friendly crops (non flowering). Farms have been getting larger and operated with larger machinery. The crops which are beekeeper friendly are being condensed into smaller blooming time frames. 

You know which of my bee yards are the most productive? The yards situated around smaller farms. These farmers have a bit of this and a bit of that, working away struggling to keep ahead of their workload and with the work weather delays I get a nice diverse drawn out crop bloom. I have another farmer that farms 25 times the land, and I only get three weeks max of any bee forage off his lands (including his non farm-able land because he has none!)

We are fighting to relieve the bees from one issue, and when we finally achieve that goal, nothing will change because its not actually the problem...



BernhardHeuvel said:


> Beekeepers should stand together and not beating each other up. You probably do not have trouble but others do.


yet by standing "together" gives me no alternative solutions. Give me an alternative to our cropping problems and we will go down that path. Neonic seed treatments were provided as the solution to broadcast spraying practices.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Ian said:


> You know which of my bee yards are the most productive? The yards situated around smaller farms. These farmers have a bit of this and a bit of that, working away struggling to keep ahead of their workload and with the work weather delays I get a nice diverse drawn out crop bloom. I have another farmer that farms 25 times the land, and I only get three weeks max of any bee forage off his lands (including his non farm-able land because he has none!)





Haraga said:


> I wonder if man must resign to the fact that bees can't be kept just anywhere anymore?


there's a lot to consider in those statements.

looks like improving habitat is high on the agenda for the new task force here in the u.s., are there any similar efforts underway in canada?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> are there any similar efforts underway in canada?


besides the campaign against chemicals...

We have wet land associations as you do in the US, we have conservation associations as you do down in the US. But that nothing to promote better cropping rotations. And when I say better cropping rotations I mean "better beekeeper rotations" 

Farmers are on the top of their game right now. Their ability to effectively manage wet lands into arable land, control tough perennial weeds and bring in equipment to get their work done on time has dramatically decreased bee forage, hurting beekeepers. All this has nothing to do with chemical companies, but rather farmer land management. Throw high priced corn, and low cost soybeans into the mix and wham, no bee forage at all...


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I also cooperate and work with farmers that do not use neonics in their canola and do have less problems keeping the bees in a good shape.
> 
> We live in a densely populated area and there is no wilderness here, nothing. Also farmers start to cut the grass several times a year, so no meadows. No white clover anymore. Environmentalists start fighting "foreign" plants, yeah really. They cut down fields and wild patches with golden rod or other melliferious plants. The city administration uses glyphosat to kill those foreign plants.
> 
> ...


Would you conclude that the residuals from neonics has not been harmful to the bees?
Have you had any success getting city administration to stop using glyphosate?


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> looks like improving habitat is high on the agenda for the new task force here in the u.s., are there any similar efforts underway in canada?


In my area, no.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Oh Ian. Corn is dirt cheap right now.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

It appears that southern Ontario does not have enough for the bees to forage on. Maybe the bees need to be moved in only for pollination and then moved out again like they do in California?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

http://up.picr.de/19010009po.pdf

Another piece.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Haraga said:


> Oh Ian. Corn is dirt cheap right now.


$7 dances in all corn farmers heads during spring seeding lol


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

zhiv9 said:


> ... instead you are attacking me. ...


It's called "trolling"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
quite common at beesource.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> http://up.picr.de/19010009po.pdf
> 
> Another piece.


Ah, the di Prisco paper.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Haraga said:


> I wonder if man must resign to the fact that bees can't be kept just there anymore?


Or maybe we should consider that not all crops can be grown just anywhere anymore.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

It's simpler than that. Stop overusing pesticides, and thoroughly test them for safety BEFORE they're registered for use.

The current system is 'broken'.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

How long will your vaunted RNAi technology have to be "_*thoroughly*_" tested to be sure its safe BEFORE its registered for use? :scratch: 



... years ..... decades ...
...and what could _possibly _go wrong after all that? :lpf:


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

cerezha said:


> It's called "trolling"
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
> quite common at beesource.


Couldn't disagree more Sergey. There are lots of different viewpoints on here and people that come from all walks of life and even places in the globe. Many of them I disagree with, even strongly disagree with but I don't think they are here just to irritate and sew discontent. I think they have strongly held viewpoints.......and they are different than mine.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Plants already produce RNAi naturally. It should be considered GRAS.

If you are making the contention that if neonics are banned, there are no safe alternatives available, I'll simply say, "Nonsense".

However, that's not my job, and frankly, they're already applying the 'solution' in the EU.

If you want to know how they're growing corn, etc., without neonic seed coats, ask the E.U. .


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

WLC said:


> Plants already produce RNAi naturally. It should be considered GRAS.


That is _your _best scientific analysis? :scratch: :s :lpf:



Plants also produce _oxalic acid_ naturally. So _oxalic acid _should be on your list of GRAS? How about poison hemlock? 




*(GRAS = Generally Regarded As Safe)


:gh:

... and more degrees than a thermometer ...


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Rader:

Like I said, it's not my job to find the alternatives to neonic seed coats.

They're doing it in the EU though.

If you don't think that RNAi technology can replace chemical pesticides in many cases, I'll disagree.

If done correctly, it can target one pest species, in a very specific way.

But, we're getting ahead of ourselves.

Neonics are still a problem in Ontario.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Squarepeg is correct in that we should stand together, and if you don't want to stand with us, at the least, do not stand against us.

It is my opinion, that we beekeepers, as a whole to too emotionally involved in our bees and our selves. Too many of us are zealots that believe bees are the most important thing out there and that others who don't see this are uneducated, capitalist who do not care about the common good. I live in a small time farming community. My farmers grow vegetable produce and keep 20 to 40 head of beef cows. Some of them on small acreage keep goats and sheep. Watermelon and cantaloupe patches are from 20 to 40 acres. Most of the farmers have some type of irrigation and grow two crops a year, one being a cover crop to rebuild the soil and the other a cash crop. These guys work their butts off and have a good broad knowledge of agriculture. They certainly aren't rich and they don't drive the upscale cowboy pickups. Many of them have a spouse the works, and others have some special skills that they produce income with, i.e., welding and artificial insemination. 

We as beekeepers can work with these people, but we can't ask the government or someone else to "make" these people do the right thing. We have to learn to sit down with other groups and work toward a common good in a very civil manner. Ask yourself, who is against honey bees? I don't think anyone wants to eradicate honey bees. It is our challenge to come to the farmers and chemical companies with our hat in hand and ask them to meet with us. 

I have worked between the oil and gas industry and the general public for many years, and I assure you this can be done.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Just what I was thinking....digitalis and poison ivy oil are produced by plants.....should they be GRAS?


Rader Sidetrack said:


> That is _your _best scientific analysis? :scratch: :s :lpf:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Toxins are never considered to be GRAS.

It's becoming clear that legal action is the main option available to Ontario beekeepers.

Change the laws friends.

Don't think that the other side of the issue will act in good faith.

You can see how they behave right here.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Testing for safety is important. How many species of plants insects invertebrates microbes and biological systems would you test for? With honeybees alone tests have largely been on adults in cages....extend this to all seasons and all parts of the life cycle then multiply that by the number if species and add in a fudge factor to account for testing on organisms we don't know as much about and you are talking decades of work and billions and billions of dollars. How about a realistic time line of testing a new pesticide?


WLC said:


> It's simpler than that. Stop overusing pesticides, and thoroughly test them for safety BEFORE they're registered for use.
> 
> The current system is 'broken'.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

lazy shooter said:


> , and if you don't want to stand with us, at the least, do not stand against us.


Darn right I will stand against this "cause". 
Our farm has used these treatments for over 15 years and it has been an effective way of controlling our spring flea beetle infestations. Without it we will be broad casting insecticide twice over all broad leaf acres.

Farming practices have changed since this seed treatment has been introduced. Without seed treatments Insecticide will be the highest selling product on the market.

Do you know what freshly applied insecticide smells like? You will. It will become the "normal" smell of spring....

Then we will have all beekeepers standing together to have farmers stop spraying insecticide all together. How do you think that will turn out? Perhaps revisiting Neonic seed treatments again for the solution.

A lot of this movement is to get rid of pesticides period. And beekeepers are being used as the mule for this campaign.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

WLC said:


> Toxins are never considered to be GRAS.


Well, the _devil_inch: is in the _DETAILS, isn't it?_

How much of a substance constitutes a toxin? 

Water is typically considered GRAS, but try drinking 5 gallons a day and you might think otherwise!


Oxalic acid is produced naturally by leafy plants considered healthy to eat - spinach, for one - but eating too much spinach could kill a person.



.... remember, _Popeye _was just a cartoon character ...
.... funny, though ...


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

The US Geological Survey is reporting finding neonics in various bodies of water, including rivers.

Honeybees are an indicator species.

The 'canary' is dead Ian.

That's what this is about.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

WLC said:


> The 'canary' is dead Ian.


My canaries are still living... If soybeans kicked off any substantial amount of nectar, and quality pollen, this issue would never of risen.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

WLC said:


> The US Geological Survey is reporting finding neonics in various bodies of water, including rivers.


The truth is that virtually _EVERYTHING _produced by man can be found in various bodies of water, including rivers.

How about estrogen, from birth control pills, being found in water supplies? Don't believe me? Its all right here, from Scientific American.

Are we now to expect to see WLC demanding that birth control pills be banned? :lpf:

:ws:


Catchy phrases spouted by _activists _get headlines, but real solutions to real problems in the real world are not as easy as WLC's blarney.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Two beekeeper friendly campaigns that I do stand behind; 
A campaign to stop ditch spraying which will allow our clovers, alfalfa, asters and goldenrods grow. 
A campaign to reinstate tree row establishment programs and land tax intensives to have tree rows, bush and marshlands maintained. 

Why are beekeepers not pounding the tables about these issues? Something that is actually immediately achievable within our governments control...


*oh well, these are such boring issues, even though these issues would benefit beekeepers more than anything else talked about right now.*


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

My canaries are still living too. 
A beekeeper in my area was giving up what I considered choice yards here because of what was claimed the effects of neonics on their hives. The claim was that all of ornamental plants were treated and the environment was no longer suitable for honey bees.
Our county is the highest producer, $ wise, of nursery, greenhouse, floriculture, sod products in NY.
This beekeeper claimed that honey bees simply can't live here and their losses of bees was proof of that.

I had to decided if these yards were worth pursuing and put my bees on the land given all the neonic exposure talk. Reading some accounts by those who are surrounded by bigAg and reporting limited issues I felt it was worth a shot and put a limited number of hives in those yards the first year. They produced a crop and overwintered there. The next spring I doubled the number of hives and they produced a crop and overwintered. I manage those yards like I do all of my yards, and it's not really any different than the management most of you use. Timely Mite management, rotate out old comb, basic stuff.

This is the third season my bees are in those neonic ruined yards and I have not experienced any of the issues the previous beekeeper claims to have experienced. They produced a bumper crop this year (yeah it was a good year in every yard) and the yards are supporting what I think is close to capacity number of hives.

So you tell me what's going on? Is it just to easy for many to point the finger and blame the term of the day (neonics, ccd, lack of habitat) for all their troubles? Lose em from mites and you have to admit some degree of failure as a beekeeper but lose em from mites and blame external forces beyond your control and no failure is admitted. I for one do not want to band together with beekeepers who blame everything but themselves for their failures. 
It's time to separate the fact from the fiction.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> The truth is that virtually _EVERYTHING _produced by man can be found in various bodies of water, including rivers.


And that's not a good thing.

So much polarization over this topic. Black and white, right and wrong. Life isn't much like that. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, but that is a pretty boring place to argue from.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I agree, Barry. 

Having a _plan _for what _better _substance/solution - one actually _available _- will replace neonics in the marketplace before you ban it seems like an _obvious _move to me.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

If they take neonics out of southern Ontario the fact remains that there is still not enough there for the bees to forage on.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

clyderoad said:


> So you tell me what's going on?
> ....
> 
> It's time to separate the fact from the fiction.



Good post clyderoad. I agree totally. What the heck is going on? My hives are thriving, surrounded by crop management, yet Ontario beekeepers cant keep their bees going surrounded by crop management... So whats different? 

let us look very hard, one big difference...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Barry said:


> but that is a pretty boring place to argue from.


exactly the way I like my politics, boring is best lol


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Ian said:


> let us look very hard, one big difference...


what's that ian?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> what's that ian?


Like I have said... you dont pull honey or any nutrition off corn and soybeans... but you do on canola

Its what Haraga is getting at when he has mentioned, "move the bees out"


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

ya know, I'll not forget the look on those property owners faces when I showed up to discuss taking over those yards. They had been told, in effect, that their cherished land couldn't support honey bees because it was polluted. They wondered if it was and the thoughts going through their minds must of been of the nightmare variety. They seem more happy about my thriving bee hives than I am and always ask how they are fairing.
Land here is at a premium and some of these landowners are on 25-50 acres of pristine (to the eye) fields and old pastures where as most landowners consider 3/4 acre in suburbia to much to take care of. Their land is within close proximity to those ornamental plant operations, and loads of vineyards- like 60 or so in a concentrated stretch as we are on an Island and a fork of that Island to boot.
Every yard my bees are in is owned by landowners who are farming it (the bigger properties) or managing and preserving it. They are the last ones who want to see it compromised.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Well, I work for real world solutions, because I need solutions now. Can't wait for politics. So what I do is to cooperate wih farmers and they don't use neonics, and my bees pollinate their crops. (Canola, fruit orchards) The rest of the year I move the hives to different shrub and tree crops like blackberries, limetrees or sweet chestnuts. Most of the apiaries are in bigger cities. 

The fact that farmers can live without neonics is a given fact. Because those farmers I work with do so, so it must be possible. We sit together and choose the least harmful pesticide and speak about how and when those are applied. I manage my bees accordingly.

If the bees are forced to feed on neonics they are weakened, who really doubts that? It is an insecticide which is 7,000 times more toxic on insects than is DDT. So if you have alternative forage for your bees you're fine. If not and the bees have to feed on neonics you will get into trouble. Simple as that.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ian said:


> Like I have said... you dont pull honey or any nutrition off corn and soybeans...


In another thread, this was stated:



> Originally Posted by *wareagle1776*  What is your main flow?





The Honey Householder said:


> Soybeans, and clover


Can I get an explanation?


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

There are two ways to reduce bee mortality in southern Ontario. Move the bees away when pollination is over, like they do on California almonds. And take away government programs that reward hive losses. If the government, which in fact is running a deficit, can't keep out of agriculture, then all they need to do is reward the beekeepers that have hive increases.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

"Can I get an explanation?"

I don't know what soybean honey looks like because I've never pulled it. Acres of soybeans around here. When the main flow of canola ends, and the beans are still going, my bees begin that fall robbing mode which happens after there are no flows to collect. I don't know what else to say, zero comes out of the soybean and edible bean crops around here.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Can some one provide a crude protein % and AA protein breakdown for soybean pollen? 
I just looked it up on my Bee Forage Plant Protien chart and it's not listed.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian said:


> "Can I get an explanation?"
> 
> I don't know what soybean honey looks like because I've never pulled it. Acres of soybeans around here. When the main flow of canola ends, and the beans are still going, my bees begin that fall robbing mode which happens after there are no flows to collect. I don't know what else to say, zero comes out of the soybean and edible bean crops around here.


I have come to the conclusion that the chances of finding a honeybee working either corn or beans in our area are approximately the same as finding Bigfoot in the field. Here is one of 4 different videos I took last summer while checking some yards. It's a bit like Seinfeld (without the humor) in that it's a video about nothing. I could have posted the others, including one in a bean field with the same results but figured people would get the idea after just one. In our area I would estimate at least 90 per cent of our hives are located within a half mile of either a corn or bean field. I can't say with any certainty that there isn't some effect on some bees at some level but what I will say with absolute certainty is that we have never suffered any massive losses, in fact we have increased our numbers each year since CCD was first reported. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FUvEgqqdjWA


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Jim are they normal size hives for that time of year? I thought they would be bigger.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ian said:


> Can some one provide a crude protein % and AA protein breakdown for soybean pollen?
> I just looked it up on my Bee Forage Plant Protien chart and it's not listed.


Where is Graham when I need him! LOL


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Ian maybe Victor could do some google action and look that up for you.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Jim are they normal size hives for that time of year? I thought they would be bigger.


It was about this time of year, the main purpose for checking it was that it was among the first yards that had been "pulled" and had been supered back with just one medium which was all we could spare that day. Hence my comment "Jim had better get out here with some boxes."


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

No bees on corn here either. Our corn is grown for (you guys are going to laugh) eating on the cob or roasted sweet corn, corn mazes for fall agritourism or those dried tri-color corn door ornaments in the fall. No silage or ethanol production. 
Corn fields everywhere separated by hedge rows. I think the hedge rows are more for property line boundaries than for field breaks and thank goodness because that's where the bees are.

The real problem for our bees here seems to be the fruit tree orchards of apples, cherries, pears, peaches etc. That's where the bees get hurt. I don't pollinate but those I know who do have the most trouble keeping bees healthy and alive through the winter. They also had the largest number of winter dead outs. I have bees close to a couple of orchards (not in them) and have comparatively more issues at those yards than others not near an orchard. The orchard sprays seem to do more damage to the bees than the seed coated or irrigation water mixed w/ systemics.

The many vineyards for wine production have not been a major issue-yet. All of my yards are within flight distance of a vineyard, none are on the vineyard estate proper. Most of the vineyards leave the row spaces to weeds they keep cut and don't use herbicides to control the row space. Potatoes and pumpkins are a big crop but I'm not near any big fields containing them. I'm watching though as I have an offer of a yard on an extensive pumpkin growing operation and muti-crop vegetable and berry farm.
As a side with the pumpkins- they sew mustard on the fields then disc it in right at the end of the mustard bloom for a natural insecticide to some bothersome pumpkin pest. Plant the pumpkin seeds right after discing.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Haraga said:


> Ian maybe Victor could do some google action and look that up for you.


Nah, id rather Graham, if he's willing to search it out. Graham seems to sort through all that rubbish and bring real goods to the table. 

I'm working an employee less Sunday afternoon shifting and supering hives, and enjoying the casual sunday afternoon, and typing this on my phone. Otherwise is look for it myself. Lol


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

There are multiple threads on soy and its relative (lack of?) attractiveness to bees gathering nectar. In fact, even WLC started his little "test" in an effort to show that _heritage _soy varieties could work for bees, in contrast to modern soy varieties that aren't particularly attractive. From what he posted so far, it has been a miserable failure.

I don't have soy or _field _corn within flying range of my bees. I do have _sweet _corn in my vegetable garden, and my bees certainly gather _pollen _from that.

Whether soy and field corn are actually valuable as nectar sources for honeybees is really a sideshow to the central topic of the thread. At this point, I'm not inclined to dig up studies as its not clear to me what the value of that would be to this particular thread at this point.

But - I have no objection to someone else hitting up Google to see what they can find!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Far as my sources go, I can't find any reference to soybean pollen quality, so... Knowing what we all know, I think it's not too far of a stretch to state soybean pollen had little value to honeybees... Unless someone can correct me on that...

For a beekeeper to be plagued with nothing but soy and corn... Mal nourishment comes to mind. And... mal nourished bees are more susceptible to everything including pesticides. Probably the reason my bees are thriving on a neinic treated seeded plant . 

For a beekeeper surrounded by corn and soy, why the heck are you concentrating all your effort in fighting big Chem? Find some forage! Feed those bees! Those actions will kept your hives alive, not pointing fingers and fighting something that will not solve the real issue.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Wow, that is so easy...don't understand why I didn't think of it...


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

To answer your question Bernhard. Maybe you and others just didn't see the forest through the trees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WLC said:


> Like I said, it's not my job to find the alternatives to neonic seed coats.
> 
> They're doing it in the EU though.


Yeah, like spraying organophosphates all over the crops. Wonder how the bees are coming along.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian said:


> For a beekeeper surrounded by corn and soy, why the heck are you concentrating all your effort in fighting big Chem? Find some forage! Feed those bees! Those actions will kept your hives alive, not pointing fingers and fighting something that will not solve the real issue.


The real issue is it is not about the bees it is about human disease and abnormalities. Most chemicals do not affect adults like it does children or even human embryos. If you were to have such a tragedy in your family you wouldn't blow off the fight so easily. No testing is done on children. It isn't moral. So don't be looking for proof. You have to use your deductive reasoning to make the connection.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Wow, that is so easy...don't understand why I didn't think of it...


Bernhard,
The winter and spring of 2013 dealt my farm some tough conditions and my stock suffered from it. My stock suffered 45% losses, any hive that was a on the smaller side going into winter died off as that winter lingered on...

Were the hives small because of neonic seed treatments? who know, but I did not sit there with my head between my legs and point blame for my hives looking so lousy. We got out into the yards and fed sugar syrup and we fed protein. I have never fed so much protein to my hives before. We slapped it on them, and we worked our buts off to keep the feed to them and the snow did not stop our work either. We opened the hives and culled out all old queens and built our stock up with youth.

When that weather did come around in June, my hives were ready and they capitalized bringing me my largest honey crop to date. 

What else can I say Bernhard. Dont spend the time on pointing fingers, spend it on beekeeping...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> If you were to have such a tragedy in your family you wouldn't blow off the fight so easily.


what is causing the human disease and abnormalities? and why is my family in such a tragedy?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Ian said:


> what is causing the human disease and abnormalities? and why is my family in such a tragedy?


Uhhh...

Don't marry your siblings?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

WLC said:


> Uhhh...
> 
> Don't marry your siblings?


I'm reminded me of that Brothers Gibb song again. You know the one, I started a joke that got the whole world........


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Barry said:


> And that's not a good thing.
> 
> So much polarization over this topic. Black and white, right and wrong. Life isn't much like that. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, but that is a pretty boring place to argue from.


This is what I was trying to get at. It doesn't need to be 100% all treated seed or nothing. Practice IPM demonstrate that neonics are required. If it's safe on canola fine - then prove that's it's safe on corn or soybeans and temporarily ban it one those crops until then. There is plenty of middle ground here.

I also stress that just because YOU are not having a problem doesn't mean that others aren't.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

WLC said:


> Uhhh...
> 
> Don't marry your siblings?


Are you experienced in this matter?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

zhiv9 said:


> I also stress that just because YOU are not having a problem doesn't mean that others aren't.


The problem is that no one knows what the problem is. Lots of people seem content to attribute the present day bee hive maladies on everything but themselves. It's just easier that way.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

@Ian: I spend a lot of time - night and day - on keeping bees. That's why they survive and thrive. 

But be sure, if someone p*sses into my hives I will will point my finger right into the wound. You hurt my hives and you are in trouble with me. Simple as that.

The truth wriggles it's way up to the surface, sooner or later. You can deny it or not, doesn't matter.

@Oldtimer: I rather like hard pesticides that kill my bees on the spot. Because I notice it right away and not having to deal with strange things that happen in my hives. I can deal with dead hives, but not with immune-suppressed diseased hives, that have to be fed artificial protein to keep them barely alive. What will be next? Shall I carry the nectar into the hives, too? Back in the days you could split hives like mad, nowadays one has to be careful about splitting or they simply fade out. I want strong hives and not such poor bastards. And I get strong hives by avoiding neonics. That's it. Nothing else helped.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Not arguing with you Bernhard, although imo there are still some unknowns.

Collating everything together that I can on it, my own personal belief is that if, as you probably are, a beekeeper is in an area where bees collect a lot of pollen from neonics treated crops, harm may result. other beekeepers may keep bees surrounded by neonics treated crops but the bees suffer no damage because they do not actually work the neonics crops at the vital time, because they have other alternatives.

However before neonics, I recall many poisoning events and hive losses, now, few to none, given it's hard to verify so cannot give exact number. Here though, almost everywhere, bees are mostly not forced to collect the usually low grade pollen made by the types of crops that may be grown from neonics coated seeds. Where you are, perhaps they do have to, and that may account for our different experiences.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

We have corn, corn and wait: some corn. 






As Ian said, no reason to hang your head between your legs. I tilled some small patches and made my own summer forage. So every apiary with about 20-40 hives each has it's own alternative pollen ressource on 5-10 acres. I will post some pictures at the weekend. It is eating up my money and time to work around problems others causing me bees.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> ... There are lots of different viewpoints on here ...


I think, since it is a public place, opinions must be presented in respectful and civilized way. Trolling and "cyberbullying" is a serious issue on public forums. My personal opinion.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> We have corn, corn and wait: some corn.
> 
> It is eating up my money and time to work around problems others causing me bees.


So, ya Bernhard, exactly what Im saying...
you think your bees are getting much nourishment from that corn? Of course not. I briefly skimmed through the vid, nothing but corn... 
I have a question Bernhard. What are your bees feeding on through out the year?

I have moved a bunch of beeyards out into canola acreage. This one spot I have over 1000 acres of canola all grown by different farmers but together all I can see is yellow... and pulling honey...

If that were corn, like you showed on your vid, id have no forage. That would not be a neonic issue, 

what your vid showed, is a crop rotation issue...


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Poor forage and neonics. You can have one or the other but both at the same time is a recipe for disaster.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

This is our silage corn;

http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/IanSteppler/media/IMG_1847_zpsb1297b87.jpg.html

this is what my ditches, and property looks like;

http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/IanSteppler/media/IMG_1866_zpsa040c337.jpg.html

Common Bee Forage protien breaddowns;

http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/IanSteppler/media/attachment_zps2c62f212.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3

I feed protien through out this flow;

http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/IanSteppler/media/IMG_1549_zpscdd78f33.jpg.html

We move out to these flows, and the bees do very well, neonic seed treated crops all the same;

http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/IanSteppler/media/IMG_1699_zpsb16a32a4.jpg.html

http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/IanSteppler/media/IMG_1878_zpsaa6dc09b.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

IF the issue is no flowers, then spend your energy there... I know I keep bees in a pocket of flowers. But if I didn't, I would be focusing on another strategy


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Agreed Ian. Up until the mid 70's (long before neonics) our family kept many bee locations a couple hundred miles east of here until fence row to fence row farming practices forced us to abandon them. There was so little good forage that the bees would dwindle in size throughout the summer and the resulting winter losses would routinely run over 50%. The same management practices here in South Dakota where there are some pastures and alfalfa fields scattered among the row crops and the condition of the fall clusters would be dramatically different.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I see no clover in those ditches Bernhard, why?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> As Ian said, no reason to hang your head between your legs. I tilled some small patches and made my own summer forage. So every apiary with about 20-40 hives each has it's own alternative pollen ressource on 5-10 acres.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)




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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

And a video:


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That's lovely Bernhard. But are you allowed to just go and till 5 acres that is not yours and plant it?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

That would be nice!  Naa, I have to talk to a lot to farmers and hunters and seek cooperations. Luckily the EU committed a law that every farmer has to lay up 5 % of his land. As fallow land. Because they have no idea what to do with those 5 % they take my idea readily. I also talk to farmers not using neonics and they do. Some at least. Helps a lot.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

5% fallow by law. Lucky beekeepers!


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I had 2 hives and lost 2 hives. That is 100%. 

Attended a Mel Disselkoen presentation and the state beekeepers summer meeting. Trying to do better with my 3 hives this winter.


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## Maplevalleykennel (Aug 1, 2014)

Haraga said:


> Since you stated this was a fact, would you give us a reference to this "fact"?


Haraga, please try not to confuse the new ice age/global warming/climate change/chicken little folks with facts. They really upset them, especially when you prove their "models" are broken.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

dsegrest said:


> I had 2 hives and lost 2 hives. That is 100%.


Averages don't mean much where there is a small number of hives. You could have just as easily had 100% survival.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Why no clover Bernhard?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Got clover in those fields, too.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I mean in your ditches?

love your bee fields!


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

The ditches get mowed. I had a nice field with dandelions => mulched down. Had a field of clover: mowed. Clover in the ditches: mowed. Of course they mow during daylight and in full sunshine so the bees get slashed up.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

sounds like everyone is working against you over there...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> The ditches get mowed. I had a nice field with dandelions => mulched down. Had a field of clover: mowed. Clover in the ditches: mowed. Of course they mow during daylight and in full sunshine so the bees get slashed up.


It is in our German culture. We strive for picture "perfect" even though it is not always the right thing to do.


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