# Converting hand extractor to motorized



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

I want one, How much did it cost. Could you tell me where you got the controller and motor? They don't offer a powered upgrade for mine. And mine looks to be the exact same one you've got.


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## Vince (Jun 22, 2014)

I purchased all of the parts (except for the metal) from various vendors on eBay. The VFD is an Automation Direct 120V single phase input, 3 phase output. It took a month or two to find the motor and VFD. I spent about $130 for everything.

Vince


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Vince said:


> I purchased all of the parts (except for the metal) from various vendors on eBay. The VFD is an Automation Direct 120V single phase input, 3 phase output. It took a month or two to find the motor and VFD. I spent about $130 for everything.
> 
> Vince


I think you gave me enough info to find the VFD, anything special about the motor. I'm not an electrical guy, but if I get the right parts I can get some help.
Thanks..


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## Vince (Jun 22, 2014)

For the motor I just searched for 3 phase 1/4HP. You want to get one that is 208 or 220V, I don't think anyone makes a 120V input 480V output VFD. You can also do a google search for "surplus motor 3 phase fractional hp" It took a while to find something that would work. Here is one that looks a lot like the one I used:

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electr...P-1710-RPM-230-460-3PH-MOTOR-TEFC-10-2844.axd

$40.

Vince


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## jjohnsind (Apr 24, 2014)

Way over my head. Just sell me one. LOL.


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## Vince (Jun 22, 2014)

jjohnsind said:


> Way over my head. Just sell me one. LOL.


OK, here is a company that sells a conversion kit for only 700 euro (plus shipping and VAT)

http://shop.safnatura.com/eng/extractors|motorized-bars/saf-natura-motor-for-extractor-525/264/

Vince


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Vince, very nice job, VFD and a 3 phase motor is simply the only way to go.

I have VFD's on my mill and lathe and would never go back to AC or DC motors.

I like the misalignment compensating shaft couplings, I bet that extractor has almost zero vibration.


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## Vince (Jun 22, 2014)

tanksbees said:


> Vince, very nice job, VFD and a 3 phase motor is simply the only way to go.
> 
> I have VFD's on my mill and lathe and would never go back to AC or DC motors.
> 
> I like the misalignment compensating shaft couplings, I bet that extractor has almost zero vibration.


I realize this is a beekeeping forum, but yes, VFD and 3 phase motors rock. At one point I tried to get 3 phase to my house so I could run inexpensive industrial equipment. Then I realized all I needed to do was install a VFD (all VFDs built in the last 15 years can take single phase input, even if it does not say so on the drive), and I could run 3 phase equipment. I have 5 CNC lathes and mills plus other equipment (about 8 VFDs) with 3 phase motors all running off single phase power through VFDs. BTW, used 3 phase table saws sell for half what single phase sell for because very few people have 3 phase at their house. 

Vince


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

thanks for taking the time to video and put this thread up. While over my head, not over my son N laws, so with his help, I've got all the parts ordered and I'm certain I'll be motorized in a couple of weeks. 
Thanks again, couldn't have done it without your guidance.


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## Vince (Jun 22, 2014)

Glad I could help.

Vince


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Vince said:


> I purchased all of the parts (except for the metal) from various vendors on eBay. The VFD is an Automation Direct 120V single phase input, 3 phase output. It took a month or two to find the motor and VFD. I spent about $130 for everything.
> 
> Vince


Hi Vince,
I've got the motor and the VFD. Programming the VFD is over my head, one input is the min rotation of the motor. The motor says 1710, but if that's what the VFD starts at it will be unusable. What did you put in for that? Or is there some default program? I'm in over my head trying to get this thing to work...


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## BeeBop (Apr 23, 2015)

I'm not Vince, but I'd probably start around 300 RPM. If the motor starts and runs and doesn't complain then you're OK. If you think that's still too fast then bump it down 50RPM at a time until you're happy with it or the motor won't start anymore.
If the motor doesn't start and run at 300 RPM then bump it up 50 RPM at a time until it does.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

I would strongly recommend a DC motor as they have tremendous torque and can be adjusted down to very slow speeds via an AC/DC inverter and rheostat. For those who are interested in going this route Mann Lake has a conversion kit that works VERY well. It is a bit pricey but worth it. It is on sale until this Monday for $548.20. That is a very good price. I put one of these on my Mann Lake 9/18 Radial extractor and it make extracting so much easier and you can recover a lot more honey. After 5 years of hand cranking the extractor, I had enough. 

http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/product/HH-166.html


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Robbin said:


> Hi Vince,
> I've got the motor and the VFD. Programming the VFD is over my head, one input is the min rotation of the motor. The motor says 1710, but if that's what the VFD starts at it will be unusable. What did you put in for that? Or is there some default program? I'm in over my head trying to get this thing to work...


Set minimum to 0, or as low as it will go.
Set maximum to 1710
If it has braking turn it off to start with.

These things are dead simple to get working. Two wires come in from the wall, three wires out to the motor connected any way you want, set the min/max rpm and go.


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## Vince (Jun 22, 2014)

tanksbees said:


> Set minimum to 0, or as low as it will go.
> Set maximum to 1710
> If it has braking turn it off to start with.
> 
> These things are dead simple to get working. Two wires come in from the wall, three wires out to the motor connected any way you want, set the min/max rpm and go.


Use those setting. If it has problems trying to start with the setting at 0, raise it in 10 rpm increments until it starts OK. Depending on the load and size of the motor, most of the time starting at 0 will work. BTW, not that you would ever need to do this on an extractor, but you can make the motor go faster than the nameplate. I have a 3600 rpm motor on another machine (CNC milling machine) that I run at 5000 rpm. But you have to make sure the bearings in the motor can handle it.

Vince


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## Snapset (May 2, 2015)

Excellent work Vince. Thanks for taking the time to make a very informative video. 
You could add braking resistors to help with the decel trip. Another option would be longer ramp times. Do you have any trouble with the motor temp running at low rpm's?


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## Vince (Jun 22, 2014)

Snapset said:


> Excellent work Vince. Thanks for taking the time to make a very informative video.
> You could add braking resistors to help with the decel trip. Another option would be longer ramp times. Do you have any trouble with the motor temp running at low rpm's?


I would not use a breaking resistor if you are connecting through a gear box. If connected directly maybe, but the load on a gear box would be too great. On a CNC machine the motor is turning a tool of very small diameter and mass and the main thing your are breaking is the mass of the motor itself. On an extractor the mass of the basket is several times the mass of the motor or gearbox so there is a lot of torque on the gearbox or basket shaft. On my extractor, the motor amps at full load is 1.4A. when running at the very low RPM I need the amps are only about .2, so even though it can't get much cooling air at that RPM, there is not a lot than needs to be cooled.

Vince


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

The hoary old mechanical system of an idler pully with a adjustable slip clutch has huge advantages over an exotic DC motor system at a cost to productivity.

The belt drive to idler pully with a 2:1 ratio and a further reduction from stacked pully at the idler to the drive allows a commodity AC motor to drive the extractor at a max 460 RPM which is ideal. The slip clutch ( a big butterfly nut over a leather or brass clutch plate) allows a very low speed start-up and spin down. For hobby level extraction, the human attention needed to preform the slip adjustment is trivial. For sideliner scale (barrels per day) the old style is likely too labor intensive.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

I got it working. I could not reverse the gears so it's still two to one, instead of one to two like you had. That means my motor has to turn twice as slow as yours to get the basket to turn the same RPM.
But it works. I set the VFD so the dial doesn't work and I use the arrows, much finer control. The VFD would not accept less than 170 rpm as a start, but it certainly turns a lot slower than that. Nice thing about using the arrows, you can turn it off, reload, and when it comes back on it goes back to the last rpm you set it to. I'm very pleased. Got about 125 bucks in it. Hardest part was the motor has a ton of wire connectors and you only need three. My step son figured that out for me. I'm really happy with it, never would have tried it without your thread.
Thanks a lot!


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Robbin, the only disadvantage of going with the low RPM is that the fan on the end of the motor does not provide enough cooling to keep from overheating your motor. Put your hand on the motor from time to time and you should be able to leave your hand on it without discomfort. If it gets too hot you need to wait longer, run it faster or add an external fan. The new drives can have a motor provide 100% torque at 0 speed with an external fan.
I center tapped the end shaft of my extractor and put in a bolt. I use a cordless dewalt drill with a ½” socket head to the bolt. I do the decapping, kid runs the drill motor, we exchange batteries on each box need to or not.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

minz said:


> Robbin, the only disadvantage of going with the low RPM is that the fan on the end of the motor does not provide enough cooling to keep from overheating your motor. Put your hand on the motor from time to time and you should be able to leave your hand on it without discomfort. If it gets too hot you need to wait longer, run it faster or add an external fan. The new drives can have a motor provide 100% torque at 0 speed with an external fan.
> I center tapped the end shaft of my extractor and put in a bolt. I use a cordless dewalt drill with a ½” socket head to the bolt. I do the decapping, kid runs the drill motor, we exchange batteries on each box need to or not.


Yep, I can see the fan turning, and it's not very fast. I hadn't thought of adding an external fan, should be simple enough to put a small AC fan on the end blowing thru the air intake. Also a great idea to put my hand on it to feel the temp. Shouldn't take lone to cool off with an external fan running when the motor is not. the motor only cost 35 bucks, but I would like it to last more than one season. I tried the drill idea, but my expensive hammer drill got way too hot and you had to hold it. With this you just push a button and sit back. 
Thanks again for the ideas, for once I can't wait to extract.


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