# What must I do or not do?



## InTheBeginning (Jan 23, 2013)

Hi All,

I am new to beekeeping, and wanting to start keeping bees! If I start with package bees, purchase from Walter T. Kelley, and wanting to go the treatment free route, what must I do or not do?

Surely these bees will be coming from a bee yard that treat! What will be my success rate of keeping them healthy and alive? :scratch:

Thank you for your help and looking forward for your reply!

Thai


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

InTheBeginningGod said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am new to beekeeping, and wanting to start keeping bees! If I start with package bees, purchase from Walter T. Kelley, and wanting to go the treatment free route, what must I do or not do?
> 
> ...



Wow. 

Not sure if the whole of the internet contains the storage space needed to hold all the answers you seek new beek. 

The answer is long, complicated, and varies from day to day in the beekeeping world. 

First thing you need to do is make sure your vision of success is in tune with the realities of beekeeping today. If you can do that you will be on the right track for your first step. 

Secondly, Read here and elsewhere voraciously. Cross check the advice, apply, and revise. Repeat as needed.:applause:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I suggest that you start with more than one package. :lookout:


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

InTheBeginningGod said:


> If I start with package bees, purchase from Walter T. Kelley, and wanting to go the treatment free route, what must I do or not do?


Welcome,
I started last year with a package from WTK and I am not treating.
They have survived so far.
I will be getting another package from them this year and will be doing the same.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

As I've read it on this forum, the majority of hives that get started from packages and not treated, end up succumbing to mites.

Can't give you the full answer on what to do because nobody knows what that is. But here's a few pointers. Some bees have been bred towards mite tolerance, and some have not. If you don't want to treat you will need bees bred for that, not a breed susceptable to mites. So at some point after your package is in the hive and up and running, find somewhere to buy a queen that has been bred for mite resistance and requeen your hive with it.

Secondly, treatment residue in a hive is thought to aggravate mite infestation. Most comb foundation contains the residue of old treatments. So to avoid having old treatment residue in your hive right from the git go, you need to either source treatment free wax that has been made into comb foundation, or just block treatment free wax to paint onto plastic foundation, or don't use foundation and allow the bees to build their own comb without any foundation. To do that, you need to research "natural comb", to find out how to get the bees to build the comb where you want it, ie, in the frames.

Those two things, the bee breed, and a treatment residue free hive, to my mind would be the basic starting points for someone wanting to be treatment free.

Realise that no matter what you do, your hive may just get bigger and bigger mite numbers till it gets wiped out so a treatment free beekeeper must be prepared for the possibility of dissapointment. That, after all, is why most people treat, if they didn't have to, they wouldn't.

You may decide to use manipulations that are not supposed to be treatments, such as for example removing drone brood from the hive and destroying it. This helps because the mites are especially attracted to drone brood so you can get a lot of mites out of the hive by doing that, without using any chemicals.

Just get started, and keep reading. One thing I've found though, is what one person finds works for them, may not work for someone else. There is no way or nothing you can do, to guarantee you will be able to keep treatment free bees alive for the long haul.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Thats a good explanation Oldtimer..


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I suggest that you start with more than one package. :lookout:


+1 on the above response. You could also consider one package and maybe one nuc. Also, consider joining a club and/or finding a mentor.


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## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

1) start with more than one hive, three would increase your chances of success greatly.
2) join your local bee guild/group if possible and go to their meetings, ask questions, make friends, eat cookies.
3) put your name on a local swarm capture list if available and start with free swarms instead of $ packages.
4) if you have time, skills, inclination, free wood, tolerance for frustration, build your own hives.

just my 2 cents.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you're looking for information on keeping bees without treatments:

http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

If you want the same in the form of a book it's available from the typical online sellers, but it's all free on the website. If you want a good beginner's book on treatment free beekeeping, it's hard to beat "The Complete Idiots Guide to Beekeeping". If you want more in depth online reading:

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/ed-dee-lusby/

Plus you can read all the old posts on the treatment free forum here on beesource.

That should keep you busy for a while...


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

itbG, welcome to beekeeping and to beesource.

just my .02:

whether or not your bees will survive and/or thrive under your stewardship depends on many factors above and beyond whether or not you pursue the treatment free route.

it looks like you are doing your homework and that is great. hopefully you will be able to connect with other beekeepers in your area who will be willing to share their their successes and failures with you. you will hear it said that beekeeping is 'local', and it's true that different approaches are better suited for some areas and not others.

unlike you, i did not have the luxury of planning out and deciding in advance how i was going to approach beekeeping. i 'inherited' the task after the passing away of the elderly beekeeper had located a few hives on my property. needless to say, i got the 'crash course'.

as far as following any route, i'll have to say that i don't prescribe to any certain approach, but rather i am trying to fashion my own approach based on a combination of researching and trying things out.

if you have been doing some reading here on beesource, you have undoubtedly discovered a number of first year beekeepers that took the treatment free route, ended up losing their bees, and have decided to take a different route.

most colonies that collapse these days do so from varroa mite infestation. i have been lucky so far, in that i have not treated for mites, and have only lost one colony in three years from them. the reason i have been lucky is that i haven't been checking for mites, because i didn't know i should have been.

i believe i can continue to avoid mite treatments by identifying the colonies that get dangerously infested before they collapse, killing their queen, dusting as many mites as i can off of the remaining bees, and using the remaining bees to make up new starter colonies with a new queen.

keeping bees treatment free is an admirable goal, and i agree with most of what the very reputable treatment free contributors here on beesource recommend. if you choose that route, you should decide in advance what you will do if you end up with a colony that is perishing from mite infestation.

and this is where i deviate from what is recommended, and that is just letting the colony die. the rationale is that bees that die are not genetically worthy to be propagated and it is better to let them go.

to me, it seems a waste of good resources, not to mention the cost and the effort involved in getting a colony of bees established. the other problem i have with letting a colony die is that it becomes a source for the spread of the problem to any nearby colonies that will go into that hive and rob it out.

the one thing i wish i would have done differently is to have learned how to do a proper mite count from the beginning.

good luck.


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## wadehump (Sep 30, 2007)

do you know of any local beeks to get a hive or nucs from


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## InTheBeginning (Jan 23, 2013)

Hey thank you everyone!

I am buying an active bee hive from a local beek and starting with a 3lbs package. The local beek however treats his, so, I was wondering if I can slowly wean the bees to treatment free, by intermingling foundationless frames between the already drawn comb. 

Also for the package bees, should I feed the bees syrup and pollen subs, at the beginning to give them a running start you know to acclimate them a little and just leave them honey in the fall?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

you are welcome, and you will find a lot of great folks here who are willing to help, even though they may not agree on everything. in the end, you will have to try things and see what happens.

if the active hive has been treated preventively with terramycin and/or tylosin for american foul brood i would not buy it. i started out with some active hives that were treated this way and when i didn't treat them the afb showed up in one, and it had to be burned.

if the active hive has only been treated for mites, it would be good to know if it was treated with synthetic miticides that build up in the wax vs. organic acids that do dont build up in the wax. i would not want to buy a hive that had been treated with the synthetic miticides. i'm not sure that adding foundationless frames would wean them. 

i suggest learning how to do an alchohol wash for mites. the most important time to check them is in the summer, after you harvest the spring honey. at this point in the season you have time to take action if needed or let them be if no action is needed.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

You'll need to feed the package if there is not enough nectar being collected at the time, as they will have no stores. Since you are also getting bees from a local beekeeper, he will have local knowledge and know if feeding is needed. But usually with a package, you feed, they can starve very quickly.


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## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

I suggest buying at least one nuc of Russian bees from as close to your area as possible. They're extremely hygienic and resistant to mites. Another option would be buying a nuc of bees with hygienic behavior from close to where you live, so that they're more adapted to your environment than someplace far away, and/or a local nuc from a treatment-free beekeeper. Find a mentor you trust. They're invaluable. Join your local bee club and attend a Bee School if they have one in your area. Every little bit helps, and this forum is really valuable, too!


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## InTheBeginning (Jan 23, 2013)

Hey Tom, are Russian bees more aggressive compare to other bees? My local bee keeping association beeks are rude people, they didn't response to any of my emails and I emailed all their people! Plus, they're all about treatments! "If you want bees you better treat!" was what my friend told me when she went to bee school. So I think I will stay away from them. 

Here is my thought on beekeeping! If I can provide the bees with a clean and productive environment they will be fine. It's the same when I started keeping poultry, the majority of the people wants the medicated feed! Why? Because they have very bad condition, overcrowding, unclean water, etc. And most of the time medicated feed was all our feed store provided. Well, I never had a problem with chicks dying or getting sick chickens and I didn't use medicated feed! I think the same principle apply here! Wouldn't you agree? Thoughts?


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## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

InTheBeginning said:


> Hey Tom, are Russian bees more aggressive compare to other bees?


Not at all, in my experience. Just the same as Italians as far as I can tell. Someone may have a different experience. But if you tick off the bees, they'll make you pay. If you're kind and gentle they will be, too, has been my experience. Take it nice and slow, don't oversmoke, and enjoy the bees.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

InTheBeginning said:


> Here is my thought on beekeeping! If I can provide the bees with a clean and productive environment they will be fine. Wouldn't you agree? Thoughts?


just a novice here, but my answer would be a definite 'maybe'. (with the varroa mite being the sleeping giant. the mite actually fares better in strong colonies, and it is a unusual parasite in that it kills its host)

there are certainly well seasoned beekeepers who have been successful and have minimal losses off treatments, as well as treatment free beginners who have been surprised, frustrated and disappointed when their investment of time and money is lost.

no one can say what your outcome will be, there are too many variables. i think a good understanding of the risks and the benefits, learning all you can, and knowing what's going on inside your hives as the season progresses are the best ways to not end up surprised. the point is to try and fun!

ps: i think the response and lack of response that you got from the others is shameful, but that doesn't mean that some of the methods they use are.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

InTheBeginning said:


> If I can provide the bees with a clean and productive environment they will be fine.


Prepare for disappointment, but hope for the best. I have done that, most of my hives are on natural comb, or on plastic (small cell). Only one hive had old comb (from nucs), and it will be culled out this spring when I rebuild. I took a loss of 5 of 8 so far this winter, on supposedly resistant stock. I am trying new genetics this spring and will aggressively make nucs for overwintering next year.


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## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

InTheBeginning said:


> If I can provide the bees with a clean and productive environment they will be fine. ... I think the same principle apply here! Wouldn't you agree? Thoughts?


I think a clean and productive environment is a great place to start. But this is an agricultural sort of endeavor, and a lot of it is up to Mother Nature. One of my mentors told me in my first year, "You must decide what kind of beekeeper you want to be." I didn't understand that at first. Slowly it dawned on me especially when I read Michael Bush's chapter on "Lazy Beekeeping" and the rest of his book. Do yourself a favor and get a copy. I have my doubts sometimes (and this forum really helps), but the more I learn the more I'm committed to letting things work rather than trying to make them work. Seems we humans do too much of the latter. The quote from Bruce Lee to "hack away at the unessential" speaks volumes.

I'd suggest on not giving up on mentors and your local association, even if they are rude. It takes all kinds. One of my mentors, a "defensive" type who is a treater, said, "Boy, you've really have drunk the Kool-Aid." Yes, I have. And it tastes darn fine! But I've also learned a ton from her aside from the issue of treating vs. not treating. Enjoy the debate and sharing your own experiences. Look at your group as a potentially testy hive, go slow and don't over-smoke, so to speak. Best of luck!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> ps: i think the response and *lack of response that you got from the others is shameful*, but that doesn't mean that some of the methods they use are.


_Squarepeg_, you are criticizing Beesource members for *not *responding to a post? :scratch: How is that _shameful_?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

post #16 radar.....:scratch:


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## InTheBeginning (Jan 23, 2013)

sqaurepeg was talking about my local beeks association people radar, not the people here! 

Tom, I have been to Michael Bush website there is a lot of info there! And thankful for the Russian bee recommendation, didn't even know their mite resistance!

Well guys I am going to give the Russian a try and my local beek that's selling me his bees say he just use MITE AWAY QUICK STRIP, should I purchase his hive? Said he uses crisco and powder sugar mix for something else too, but I forgot?

Michael Bush thankful for doing us newbeeks a favor too!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

mite away quick strips or 'maqs' is just formic acid, which is naturally found in honey, and leaves no harmful residue in the wax. if i ever have to use a 'treatment' it will be maqs.


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## InTheBeginning (Jan 23, 2013)

Can I have Russian and Carniolan bees in the same yard? Will this affect the Russian bees mite resistance? Thoughts?


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## Bubbles (Jul 14, 2012)

You might want to try checking out wolfcreekbees.com. They raise mutts. Here is what they wrote in their Home page: "Our stock is derived from the wild feral stock of the Duck River Basin. We add a little Russian genetics, so that the bees will fly at 38 degrees if the sun is shining and the wind is not blowing. Some Italian genetics are added for honey production. The gentleness and winter handiness of the bees is acheived from the addition of Carniolan genetics. The result is a gentle bee that is a good honey producer."
And their philosophy states: "Our breeder stock has proven to be survivors with a natural resistance to the Tracheal and Varroa mite. They must also be top quality brood and honey producers. One of the advantages of having such a variety of large genetic diversity is that studies have shown that they produce 30% more brood comb than a straight line genetic bee.

We have never used toxic chemicals on our bees. For the last seven years we have used natural oils to strengthen the bees immune system. About that time we switched to the 4.9mm bee and other organic practices."

Anyway, I bought a package from them last Spring and, so far, they're still alive. So I'm happy with their bees.


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## beeman2009 (Aug 23, 2012)

I've had there bees for 6 years. They are hearty, disease free, and great honey producers, also very gentle. BTW, I called John 2 winters ago and told him mine were flying at 35 degrees. :applause: Also as a side note, have never seen any mites or evidence of mites. :scratch:


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

beeman2009 said:


> I've had there bees for 6 years. They are hearty, disease free, and great honey producers, also very gentle. BTW, I called John 2 winters ago and told him mine were flying at 35 degrees. :applause: Also as a side note, have never seen any mites or evidence of mites. :scratch:


awesome. do you use small cell foundation, natural comb, or a combination?

what have your losses been in those 6 years, and from what?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Hi Beeman - 
I'm with Square - pretty awesome results!
You have run hives for 6 years continously and not ever seen a varroa mite with no treatments? Are you doing tests for mites or just observing for them as you work. Either way an untreated hive from purchased stock having zero varroa mites for 6 years is pretty incredible and sounds like some pretty top line breeding. We are on the other end of the spectrum looking at bees more successfully managing higher mite populations. I'm also wondering if you find dark (black) bees mixed in your population that would be common with the carni or the wild black german bee they speak of on wolfcreeks site. Ironically I was talking with my son about the "black german bees" which 15 years ago would be an indicator for wild bees here, and how they seem to have disappeared from our region completely a few years ago - along with much of the wild population of other strains. Have you purchased any of there queens?


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## beeman2009 (Aug 23, 2012)

Joel, Square,

You are right. I have been impressed with these little bees. I started out with 4.9 foundation from Brushy Mt and am switching to foundationless slowly. I use a sticky board to check for mites about 4 times a year but as of yet have not found any. It was funny when I got my first bees from WC I bought 11 packages & 9 of them absconded within 4 days, the other two did just fine. So I replaced those and everything has been fine since. Joel, yes I have seen many of those black german bees in these. 1 package I bought 3 years ago to increase my haives was all very dark brown and the queen was jet black. And yes I have bought his queens, they did just fine.

I'm not one who swears SC will cure evrything from mites to the debt crises, but I will say I believe SC along with careful breeding will go a long way to evening out the field. John's family has over 100 years of beekeeping experience and he is the type that does not think he knows it all. He is constantly studing & observing where he might improve his stock. As to losses, up until this year I had 1 hive die in 6 years due to my error, starved to death. This past year was a wash as I got sick early and was not able to work my bees at all this season.  Next year looking better.:banana:


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

the duck river isn't to far from me, i've done some trout fishing there. just might have to see about a queen or two from them to mix with mine.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Beeman, Thanks for the filling us in more on wolfcreek! It's always cool to find these backwoods breeders who are doing things really right. Sounds like you are doing the right things and your testing methodolgy is pretty solid. I certainly will try a few of their queens this year (prices are very reasonable) and will look forward to giving them a try. I like their approach to picking a variety of stocks and using the best in their breeding operation, very similar to my thoughts on the subject. My experiances have made me a firm believer in these "dark german bees" from wild areas as when they were in this area and prevelant they were consistently a "different breed" and the most common we found in the hollow tree survivor types. We've had alot of wild bee space loss during the last 10 years due to the beeches dying out, attacks on the maples and now we are facing the scarlet ash borers and everyone is cutting them down to try and stem the tide before it gets a foot hold. I think it has contributed to the loss of those dark bees as I have never seen them in a wall or outside a tree for that matter, except as a swarm.

I was down for a season once in the early 1990's - it's tough for us nature's boy's (and girls) to be not out. Good luck in 2013 and thanks for the info!


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

Plan on buying more bees. I'm serious. 

You need to treat.



InTheBeginning said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am new to beekeeping, and wanting to start keeping bees! If I start with package bees, purchase from Walter T. Kelley, and wanting to go the treatment free route, what must I do or not do?
> 
> ...


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

joel, funny you should mention the old dark german bees. their genetics are mixed in with the ferals here too, and their phenotype shows up to lesser and greater extents in all of my colonies. i assume from the feral drone contribution to my yard's genetics.

my neighbor remembers when they were more prominent around here, and he remembers them being a little hot. that trait seems to have waned as they have mixed with all of the other strains over the years, but they are still really black.

check out this feral queen that tried to usurp one of my colonies last fall:


View attachment 4105


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>This past year was a wash as I got sick early and was not able to work my bees at all this season.

sorry to hear that beeman. do you mean that you lost more hives this year because you could not work them?


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## MelanieWoosley (Nov 11, 2012)

scorpionmain said:


> Welcome,
> I started last year with a package from WTK and I am not treating.
> They have survived so far.
> I will be getting another package from them this year and will be doing the same.


Hi from Oldham County, KY!


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## MelanieWoosley (Nov 11, 2012)

Just wanted to say hi, I'm in LaGrange! Best of luck! You are welcome to come to the Oldham County beekeepers meetings, I believe it's the second Friday of the month, 7:30 pm. Also, check out Fleur de Bee beekeeping, she is in Louisville as well.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

well thai, looks like you have received advice from one extreme to the other....

all the way from 'thou must treat' to 'thou must not treat'.

welcome to beekeeping. 

again, i suggest proceeding with eyes and mind wide open, learning as you go, and most of all have fun!


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## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

MelanieWoosley said:


> Just wanted to say hi, I'm in LaGrange! Best of luck! You are welcome to come to the Oldham County beekeepers meetings, I believe it's the second Friday of the month, 7:30 pm. Also, check out Fleur de Bee beekeeping, she is in Louisville as well.


:thumbsup:


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## InTheBeginning (Jan 23, 2013)

Melanie thank you! We were looking at Oldham County beeks meeting two nights ago. You are right its every second Friday @ 7:30. Where is the meeting held exactly?


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## InTheBeginning (Jan 23, 2013)

Well guys, I think I'll try and walk the narrow way of treatment free, since you have shown me it's possible. However, if things get ugly I might have to turn to natural treatment. Thank you so much for your advice! I will keep an update on my progress. I got my hive built and bees ordered. Now it's just a waiting game. 

I went to a natural food store and saw some organic bee pollen today. How would I go about feeding them pollen, just lay it on top of the frames? Or do I have to make patties out of them?
Can I just feed them honey from the store just for give them a kick start? How? And how much would I need when installing a 3lbs bee package?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

way to go thai!

i've never used organic bee pollen, and i'm no expert on it, but someone who is cautioned about using honey or pollen from bees that you cannot know the source. the risk is spreading viruses and other pathogens that would be there from the source bees. 'organic' has nothing to do the microbiota in bee products. proceed with caution there.


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## InTheBeginning (Jan 23, 2013)

I see! What if we harvest pollen and honey from our bees, and feed it back to them in the spring to give them a boost?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

there ya go......


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## MelanieWoosley (Nov 11, 2012)

InTheBeginning said:


> Melanie thank you! We were looking at Oldham County beeks meeting two nights ago. You are right its every second Friday @ 7:30. Where is the meeting held exactly?


At the Oldham county extension office, just turn onto 393 at the high school, bout a mile up the road next to the Oldham county police station. Hope to see you there!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There is no need to feed pollen. If you feed it early enough in the spring that there is no pollen, you just throw them out of synch with their environment. If you feed it at the time when pollen is coming it, they will haul it out for trash. About the only time it is of any use is in a fall when there is an early hard freeze and some warm weather after, and even then I don't know how much help it is, but it might help have more young bees going into winter. Best to catch your own pollen for those purposes and keep it frozen.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The best stimulus in spring is a hive healthy and well apportioned with stores. A good hive will have several full frames of stored pollen waiting to start brood production in late winter. Better to select for bees who do what you want naturally and in line with their climate than to try to create the same effect artificially.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very well said michael and sol.

i have gotten away from feeding anything at all, except to prevent starvation, and i prevent starvation by not taking any more from the bees than i should.

when i have to feed, i try to do so by sharing stores from the colonies that have the most.

if the colonies that need help had the same opportunity as their cohorts to store resources and did not for some reason, my approach is to blame the genetics, and these colonies will either be requeened or busted up for mating nucs for the next generation of new queens.


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## InTheBeginning (Jan 23, 2013)

Okay so let me get this strait. This will be how I install my package on 4-20-2013, when everything is in place.

1. Divide my 10 frames body into two compartments giving them 5 frames of space.(I heard to give them a smaller space to work with at first!)

2. Remove queen(remove cork too) from package and hang between frame 2 and 3.

3. Remove the feed can and dump in the bees, making sure half land on queen cage.

4. Feed sugar syrup, NOT Pollen or pollen substitute!

5. Come back in a couple of days to make sure the queen is release and remove the queen cage.


One question! When do I stop feeding them sugar syrup? How will I know?

Thank you everyone!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

InTheBeginning said:


> 2. Remove queen(remove cork too) from package and hang between frame 2 and 3.


It depends on the type and configuration of queen cage you receive. Suffice it to say you need to expose the candy so the bees can begin eating it from the outside of the cage. Do not remove any cork without candy behind it. Many cages have two holes.



InTheBeginning said:


> 3. Remove the feed can and dump in the bees, making sure half land on queen cage.


That is one way to do it. You can also remove the screen from one side and achieve the same goal with less violence.

There is no rush to remove the empty queen cage. I tend to like to release manually after a week and don't bother much with candy. There are many correct ways.


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## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

InTheBeginning said:


> One question! When do I stop feeding them sugar syrup? How will I know?


When you've got a full hive with completely drawn frames (typically, 2 deeps or 3 mediums). If you have a nice, strong nectar flow hitting this spring (ask your fellow beekeepers at Oldham County beekeepers  ), you can stop feeding syrup and they'll take it from there. Nectar is much better for them than simple syrup. If you see their progress falter on or stop drawing comb, start feeding again until you have a strong, full hive that's completely drawn and have adequate stores during the summer dearth and heading into fall. 

On my first year I fed my one nuc straight through from May all the way to fall (thin and then heavy syrup beginning in October) because I wanted to split in August (success) and get two hives jamming and up to full strength in time for the winter. It took a _lot_ of sugar (and trips to Costco) though. My wallet got tired of that. Now I'll feed only if nectar isn't flowing and they're out of food. But I plan on leaving them plenty of honey throughout the year so I don't have to feed _or_ worry.


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## InTheBeginning (Jan 23, 2013)

Tom, did you harvest honey that first year? Can one start out with a package of bees, build it up for the first honey flow, harvest it, start a nuc, finally build the hive and nuc back up to overwinter in the same year?


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## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

InTheBeginning said:


> Tom, did you harvest honey that first year? Can one start out with a package of bees, build it up for the first honey flow, harvest it, start a nuc, finally build the hive and nuc back up to overwinter in the same year?


Nope. You won't get honey your first year, unless you buy a full hive (or a miracle happens). They're too busy building the hive and growing to harvest honey, since you'll be getting your packages in the spring. Focus on building your hive(s), splitting, getting them ready for winter, learning, and in the meantime just enjoy the bees. Hang out by the hives, take photos, inspect, all that good stuff. Honey is for year 2 and beyond. I was so busy learning and building equipment that first season that I think a honey harvest would've been a blowout for me.  It took some of my mentors longer to get their first honey, because we all make mistakes. But with hard work, planning and a bit of luck, you'll be harvesting next spring and beyond. Just enjoy this first year of bees. It's unique and wonderful in itself, and loads of fun, even without harvesting.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i'll let tom answer for himself thai, but i would say probably not unless you are willing to do a lot of feeding.

since you are leaning toward a 'natural' approach, you may want to research the drawbacks to artificially feeding bees.

i think mike bush does the best job of this on his website and in his book(s). mainly, feeding syrup compromises the bees' health and reduces their natural resistance to certain pathogens. it makes sense if you think about it. honey has so many other beneficial ingredients compared to sugar water.


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## InTheBeginning (Jan 23, 2013)

Ok, new question! How long does it take for the bees to eat out the candy to release the queen? By the time they release her will the gals have drawn out some combs?

I am thinking, since the queen can't go to work laying eggs until the bees draw out the combs, should we delay the release of the queen to help with absconding. Let the worker bees draw out a 1/2 frame first and then let the queen out and let her go to work. If we let Queenie out and she has nothing to work with, wouldn't that just add one more reason for them to abscond. But if they have worked out some combs already....maybe they are more likely to stay?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i'm not sure about that since i have never hived a package, but maybe you could get one frame of drawn comb from another beekeeper to help 'anchor' them and lesson the risk of absconding.

i have had good success with giving captured swarms a frame of brood in order to anchor them to the empty hive.


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