# Follower boards to reduce 10 frame hive



## coldfeet (Mar 14, 2014)

I have a small swarm from June that drew and filled two medium 10 frame boxes through August. I added a third medium box in September and fed syrup but only 2 frames got drawn out.

I'm thinking (!) to try using follower boards in all 3 boxes to get the hive to an 8 frame, 3 medium boxes configuration for overwintering.

My confusion is about the follower boards. The glossary describes them as boards 3/4″ to 1/4″ thick, plywood or other material, cut to the size of the frames. A search of the forum turned up a few pictures showing the top bar of the follower boards already placed in the hive, but not the spacing.

For my purpose, do the boards have to be tightly fit to the box, with no bee space (as enjambres described in a post a few days ago), or can they be the size of medium frames? With no woodworking skills, I thought that perhaps I could manage to make something like the follower boards described at http://www.honeybeesuite.com/how-to-make-follower-boards-for-a-langstroth-hive/.

I have frame parts and could use the tops of them (without reducing the width) with masonite board attached, but I wanted to be sure of the size of the boards.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

If you have access to Styrofoam you could put a piece on both sides and get some insulation benefit. If you choose that route cover the styrofoam with plastic bags so the bees do not disassemble it or use foil covered.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

A follower board has beespace around it, just like a frame. It is usually made out of solid wood and is the dimensions of a frame, giving it beespace around, between it's edges and the box and top and bottom. These are used just as you are describing, to give an air space on the outsides of the follower boards, which gives some air flow and insulating factors. They are used also to be the first board pulled during inspections, to give space to pull the next frame without rolling bees.

A division board has no beespace around it like a follower board does. The division board fits tight all the way around and is used to divide a deep box into 2 or 3, or sometimes 4 spaces, where each space is a nuc space with it's own queen.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

TY, Ray! Just realized that all these years I've been saying my DIVISION boards were follower boards! It's hard enough to explain things in text without using the wrong terms. _Mea culpa_!



Rusty


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

RayMarler said:


> A follower board has beespace around it, just like a frame. It is usually made out of solid wood and is the dimensions of a frame, giving it beespace around, between it's edges and the box and top and bottom. These are used just as you are describing, to give an air space on the outsides of the follower boards, which gives some air flow and insulating factors. They are used also to be the first board pulled during inspections, to give space to pull the next frame without rolling bees.
> 
> A division board has no beespace around it like a follower board does. The division board fits tight all the way around and is used to divide a deep box into 2 or 3, or sometimes 4 spaces, where each space is a nuc space with it's own queen.


I certainly don't disagree with your definitions, but this means "follower boards" are used incorrectly all over the place. One example is http://outyard.weebly.com/follower-board.html and on KTBH it is often recommended to use the "follower" as a form to set the side angles so it fits snug. An example image can be found here http://www.beesource.com/resources/elements-of-beekeeping/alternative-hive-designs/top-bar-hive-construction-dennis-murrell/.


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

I have a few hundred collecting dust in my barn. I don't use them anymore but not because they have no value. Most colonies stay out of the air gap they create but every once in awhile a colony will fill the space with comb and honey. The ones I built are made from OSB. I cut a pc the size of a frame without a top bar. I then cut pine board the size of a top bar and glued the OSB to it.


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## coldfeet (Mar 14, 2014)

Thank you for the answers. 

If I used styrofoam (which would have the advantage of being easy to cut) I guess it should fit flush on the two sides of the hive box with no bee space on the sides or top or bottom of the box. It would be like the division board as described by RayMarler above, but used to reduce the size of the hive instead of dividing it. (Sorry, but I feel like I have to write it out to be able to visualize it...) But wrapped in plastic or foil, how would I attach it to the inside of the box? (Yes, my handyman skills are that severely lacking!) Maybe cut it a little bit larger and squish it in place? Maybe I'll buy some styrofoam and experiment a bit.

If I try the masonite board attached to the top of a frame, I now know to have the masonite cut to the size of the frame. Thank you for confirming this for me, RayMarler.


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## coldfeet (Mar 14, 2014)

I just saw texanbelchers's reply. The photo on the first link (The Outyard) is really clear, thanks! Something like that would have been really helpful when I first caught the swarm. The ten frame medium box I put them was too big but that was all I had on hand.

I guess I'm trying to understand if I need to have the tight fit or not. The Outyard link says the board must come close to the bottom of the box so that the bees can't wriggle underneath it. The follower boards at Honey Bee Suite match RayMarler's description, so the bees can move underneath them and even to the other side. 

Will frame-sized follower boards work for the purpose of reducing the size of the hive box without causing any harm to the bees? I'm focusing on this because I think the precision required for cutting the boards will be a little more forgiving, if that makes any sense!


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

"Will frame-sized follower boards work for the purpose of reducing the size of the hive box without causing any harm to the bees? I'm focusing on this because I think the precision required for cutting the boards will be a little more forgiving, if that makes any sense!"

Yes, it will work that way for what you want to do. I've seen it done in many other peoples hives, I just have not done it myself as I have nucs of different sizes. However, I use Mannlake's 8 frame boxes and they are too wide and do no follow beespace rules at all, so I'm hoping to get some follower boards made up so I can use one on each side of the box to keep the bees from drawing the outer frames too wide on me.

Division boards as I defined it are normally used if you want to divide the box into sections where each section has a queen, like running multiple nucs inside a single deep hive box. Otherwise, follower boards are commonly used to reduce the space a single queen colony will have inside a single box, where the bees do not cover all the frames in the single box. It also works if the single boxes are stacked up three high as you are wanting to do. Just set each box up the same configuration so that the follower boards in each box line up with the follower boards in the other boxes.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> TY, Ray! Just realized that all these years I've been saying my DIVISION boards were follower boards! It's hard enough to explain things in text without using the wrong terms. _Mea culpa_!
> 
> 
> 
> Rusty


I have been doing the same thing! In fact, I just got 5 follower boards from Bee Kind in Sebastapol Ca, thinking I was getting division boards. I planned to use for both reasons, but I take it from this discussion that I cannot use follower to keep 2 colonies in a 10 frame deep. I also wanted to use them for followers because my experience has been that condensed space seems to work better for my bees. When I give them too much space, often they seem to grow more slowly.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Coldfeet,

Are you in eastern NY (Capital District?). 

Wood follower boards and styrofoam panels outboard of that is what I did for my small colonies last winter.

I also had exterior foam and quilt-boxes.

I also fed them sugar bricks, using a Betterbee shim as a feeding ring.

All three of my colonies survived, in fine shape last winter.

I've typed out detailed descriptions of how I set up my wintering config. You could search for that using my user name, I think. 

If you live near me, we could arrange a visit to see my set-up. I am just packing up my bees in the next few days two weeks (depends on temps, my time and treating schedule.). PM me for contact info.

I could post some pics - I think I have at least one shot of an overview of a tiny colony as it was being packed last year. It wintered in a space the size of a double 5-frame nuc and grew into a fourd deep colony this summer.

Enj.


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## coldfeet (Mar 14, 2014)

enjambres, I've read many of your posts and have appreciated the detail with which you describe your beekeeping.

It was your description of precisely cut wooden follower boards, cut exactly to match the dimensions of the box, that made me worry that frame-sized follower boards wouldn't work for over-wintering purposes. I'm going to have to manage with something a bit sloppier, unfortunately! But I will try to attach some foam insulation to one side of the board, that's such a good idea.

texanbelchers gave a link that showed the interior of a hive box with a tight fitting follower board (without the insulation) so that helped a lot. Pictures are always good!


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

The speaker at our bee club meeting last night had a queen castle with division boards. The castle was a deep box with 1/8" grooves in the end pieces for the division boards to slide into.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's too bad we can't get consistent use of terminology. The typical "division board" feeder is not a division board. Michael Palmer's division board feeders are division boards. As people have pointed out, if the terminology was used correctly, a board the divides the hive into two sections is a division board. A follower board usually has a beespace around it and is NOT used to divide the hive, just to make some beespace around it and a double wall to keep things a bit warmer. Often the main goal of the person using them is just to make it easier to work the hive because it's easy to pull a follower. If you cut a frame in half and fill the space where the foundation would go with plywood (anything from 1/4" luan to 3/4 CDX, depending on what is handy) you can use that for a follower...


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

You can also just use a frame of plastic foundation for what you are doing. I have many times and it works great. 

Any time I can do what I need to do without specialized gear I do... after I first try the single-tasker and it ends up on a shelf. BTW, I have a stack of gently used follower boards you can have. Also division boards and dummy frames.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

A tight fitting division board _can_ be used as a follower board.

A follower board can _not_ be used as a division board, 
as the queens can get to each other through 
the beespace around the follower board.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Coldfeet; I used foil faced foam sheets to reduce 2 10 frame deeps to 8 frames on the bottom and 7 frames on the top box. They wintered well. It sounds like you will have 21 or so usefull frames so three decks of 7 wide would be in order. You likely will need to fill about 4 inches worth. Probably a slice of 2" each side would do. I would leave no bee space around them except at the side facing each oustside frame. I would leave a joint in the foam where the boxes join and smear these mating faces with vaseline and also where they slide in the boxes. This way you work the boxes separately which you cant do if you slip a single piece in top to bottom. As another poster mentioned, exposed foam not foil faces may get chewed. You can buy foil backed tape at any building supply. I think relatively tall and narrow encourages the bees to take the whole width of honey as they work up rather than tunnelling up the center or one side and leaving stores abandoned below them. I think you have a good plan!


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

It sounds like some of yall are describing "hive dummies" when talking about "follower boards". Dr. C.C. Miller described hive dummies in his book, "Fifty Years Among the Bees". It is a frame made into an empty box. They merely take up air space so the bees don't have to heat as much. They are not for insulation. They work great!

I'd insulate the outside of the hive with styrofoam and roof paper, or place the hives in a straw bale building for winter. Good luck!


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## coldfeet (Mar 14, 2014)

Thank you all for your answers and explanations. Yes, the terminology has me confused! Follower boards, division boards, division board feeders and hive dummies, I'd like to get it right.

In any case, I'm going to make them with 1/4" plywood and try to get them in my hive this weekend. The weather is supposed to warm up to the high 50's (14 to 15 degrees Celsius) so I think the bees will be okay while I do the re-arranging.

David LaFerney: I have to say I thought about using frames (the ones I have are wood with plastic foundation) but was too embarrassed to mention it! I was sure the solution couldn't be that simple... I did worry that it would provide the least amount of insulation, but I'd have to research those numbers. (How much insulation is provided by air space, by frames of honey, by a wood follower board, etc...) But I'm thinking it's going to be almost negligible inside the hive and better to use outside insulation as recommended by kilocharlie.

Crofter: I saw the foil-faced foam sheets at Lowe's when I went to buy material for the follower boards. Like you, I remember reading on the forum that bees can chew the foam insulation so the foil-faced ones definitely caught my eye. But even then, I wasn't sure if it would be okay, so I appreciate knowing that it can be used. And the tips about vaseline and cutting separate pieces for each box--thank you! 

I read some recent threads about empty brood boxes, I guess there's a chance that the bottom box of this hive might not have honey on the outer frames. But I have 3 frames of honey (from a super on another hive that didn't fill up) that I can add to this hive. I'll try to be prepared for setting them up either way (three boxes of 7 or 8 frames) before I open up the hive. 

Again, my thanks to everyone. I've been reading the Bee Source forums for a year and a half and finally overcame my hesitation to ask a question!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>I just got 5 follower boards from Bee Kind in Sebastapol Ca,

That kind of solid follower board will allow a hiding space for SHB if spaced smaller than a beespace from the sides of the box. I put spacers on my follower boards. This picture shows a Beekind follower board and one of my recent homemade ones with spacers. I use them to take up the excess 1 3/8" space in a Mann Lake 8 frame box.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I wonder if Honey Super Cell combs might make good follower boards. Correctly bee spaced, indestructible, somewhat insulating. Do they have spaces for SHB to hide?

They are too wide for filling the Mann Lake gaps.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Why not just use 8 frame equipment instead of 10 frame with two follower boards. The insulation thing is a fairy tale.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Charlie B said:


> Why not just use 8 frame equipment instead of 10 frame with two follower boards. The insulation thing is a fairy tale.


This coming from a man who keeps bees in a temperate climate. The coldest wind Charlies bee's experience is when the Gay Pride Parade goes by.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The insulation thing is a fairy tale.

Yes, if you live in California...


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I can't believe that a piece of wood cut to the same size as a frame sitting on a frame rest insulates a hive. That's just one of many fairy tales you here in beginner beekeeping classes. A piece of insulation adhered to the inside or outside of a hive would insulated it for sure, not a piece of plywood dangling from a frame rest.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Charlie,

I think you are misunderstanding. The wooden part of this idea is definitely _not_ there primarily for insulation. 

Those of us who live in cold climates are very familiar with the concept of the R-value of various materials. R-value in as indication of the thermal resistance, per inch of thickness, of various materials. The higher the number, then more insulating it is. Solid pine wood has an R-value of (depending on species of pine R- 0.92 to R 1.2, so we know it's not very insulative. Insulating foam of the purple or green varieties sold by Corninig and Dow have R-values of about R-5 per inch.

The point of the wooden pieces is to protect the foam from the bees' interest in chewing it, which is believed to be bad for them (it may have borax in it) and certainly isn't a very natural material.

I used (and continue to use) solid pine rather plywood because I am trying to avoid the formaldehyde in the glue that makes up plywood. 

But whether plywood or solid wood it's not there for simple insulation (though it would double the existing R-value of the wingle wall of the wood box.) 

And I don't adhere anything to the board or the box because I want it all to be easily removable in the spring.









As you can see there is foam on the outside of the pine on both sides of the central cluster of frames with bees. *EDITED* (after I had looked again at the picture!): On the left side there are two foam pieces, one 1" thick (pale green) and the other 2" thick (pink). The right side wound up having two 1" pieces of foam, So I have turned my sidewall R-values from the normal R-1 (assuming the 7/8ths inch thick pine boxes were in fact made of the densest pine available) to about R- 16 on the left and R-11 on the right. I knew the left side would be the one exposed to the pervailing winds while the right side would be snugged up against another hive. Initially I had had only two 3/4" pieces on the right side of th closest box, but later shuffled things around so I could fit two green pieces on the right side of _both boxes _after this picture was taken. 



(And in my very cold climate I also add additional foam insulation on the outside of all sides. It is less effective than well-fitted interior insulation because it does not sit as closely to the exterior sides due to uneveness of the outside of the boxes.)

Enj.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Enjambres,

Thanks for your post. This is the first time I've received a proper explanation for why the use of follower boards. Makes perfect sense now. There are some local beekeepers here who say just the simple use of follower boards insulates a hive in the colder more elevated areas during the winter. I just shake my head when I hear this.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Anyone who has stayed in a single wall tent and a double wall tent on a cool night when the weather is humid knows one of the major differences between a double wall (which is what a a follower and an inner cover are) and a single wall is how much and where the condensation takes place...


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## Beegotten (Aug 31, 2015)

texanbelchers said:


> I certainly don't disagree with your definitions, but this means "follower boards" are used incorrectly all over the place. One example is http://outyard.weebly.com/follower-board.html and on KTBH it is often recommended to use the "follower" as a form to set the side angles so it fits snug. An example image can be found here http://www.beesource.com/resources/elements-of-beekeeping/alternative-hive-designs/top-bar-hive-construction-dennis-murrell/.


I just ordered and received follower boards for both deeps and supers from Mann Lake for hive management. 
WW-155 (Deeps) and WW-165 (Supers). I'll use them to make ten frame boxes into nines for easy access. While I've read that follower boards should allow space above, below, and around the ends, these do not. They allow no bee access around or below. They are made of 3/4" plywood and a pine top. They do no have spacers. They are built like a flush wall which leads me to believe that these are more like dividers not followers (hence the confusion). I also read that whatever you use in your deeps you should use in your supers to prevent a traffic jam when the bees are going all the way up. I added spacers and they work fine for me. I also use one in the back of my swarm trap (an 8 deep) to reduce box size to seven frames. Size works in that regard. I'm in California so while I may benefit from an insulating effect, it's not why I use them.


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