# Mite count went up -- treat?



## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

A cold snap gave me the opportunity to do another mite count (I had the insert in my SBB), and my count came out at 20/day. A little over a month ago I got 8/day. Most of them this time around were light brown in color, which was interesting. 

I have a couple of questions:


Is this count a concern going into winter?
Do I have time to take action?


I'm brand new, so any advice is appreciated.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Yes, they don't stand a chance. 20 mites per square inch overnight it's amazing they are alive. Whack them with a harsh treatment this late in the year and feed them a patty, essential oils, fumagilin-B, and a fondant board.

If you go treatment-free right now, you sentenced them to death. You can go to light intervention, mild treatment, IPM next year. If they do well and hive strength comes way up, you could try "treatment-free" later. It appears that mites should be dealt a severe blow earlier in the season, like before mid-August.


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

As a newbie myself, I'm wondering, 20 mites TOTAL per day, or 20 per square inch. I'm guessing the former. Regardless, you should treat. Might have to use something that is not temperature sensitive, depending on the conditions at your location.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

kilocharlie said:


> Yes, they don't stand a chance. 20 mites per square inch overnight it's amazing they are alive.


Sorry, I should have been more specific. It was 20 per day total, not per square inch, up from 8 per day total.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Personally I don't get concerned until the number is over 50. A lot of people say my number is too high, but its worked well for us.


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## Belewsboy (Jun 6, 2012)

You should use the IPM sticky boards for three days. Count the mites and divide the total by 3 to give you the 24 hour count. 50 or more for the 24 hour total requires treatment. I tried the sugar roll on 4 hives and had a low mite count. Used the IPM boards and 2 of my hives had over 100 for the 24 hour count. Here is some info on IPM boards. http://www.njbeekeepers.org/Site_Docs/Working%20with%20Screened%20Bottom%20Boards.pdf


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

The count is relative to the size of the colony. How big is your hive? I recommend reading  here to see what some use as a threshold for treatment. You can decide for yourself. Mites per 100 bees is a bit more specific than mites per day. Read here.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

KQ6AR said:


> Personally I don't get concerned until the number is over 50. A lot of people say my number is too high, but its worked well for us.


That's kind of what I was thinking. Part of the problem is that I look at some of the possible side effects of the treatments and I'm reluctant to use them right before winter.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Belewsboy said:


> You should use the IPM sticky boards for three days.


Thanks. That's what I did. I see that my original post was a little vague.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Lburou said:


> The count is relative to the size of the colony. How big is your hive?


At it's peak, about 50-60,000. Those links are cool! Thanks!


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

LBurou - BIG THANK YOU for putting a link to Randy Oliver's www.scientificbeekeeping.com ! If the link had been any other, that would have been my post! Look for the article that has the video about the varroa life cycle, but read the entire site, and read it again! And make donations to Randy's site!!! We love this guy, so let's keep his site on-line!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

mite counts will increase during the fall as brood disappears from the hive. Make sure your thresholds account for that.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

kilocharlie said:


> LBurou - BIG THANK YOU for putting a link to Randy Oliver's www.scientificbeekeeping.com ! If the link had been any other, that would have been my post! Look for the article that has the video about the varroa life cycle, but read the entire site, and read it again! And make donations to Randy's site!!! We love this guy, so let's keep his site on-line!


:thumbsup: It's been my number 1 resource for common sense advice for years. Randy's is a rare blend of scientific thought and practical application in the real world. There needs to be more "roll up your sleeves and see what works" and fewer theoretical arguments.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I think that getting info from cooperative extensions is a better idea. That's where the information originates anyways.

When someone rolls up their sleeves, and feeds transgenic agents (and IAPV from CCD colonies), in field trials, and does so for Monsanto, you're getting way too experimental.

Stick with major universities and cooperative extensions folks. The information is all there online.

http://beelab.umn.edu/Resources/Free-bees/index.htm


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I think the best idea is to keep an open mind and listen all the information coming in, in an un biased manner


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Ian said:


> mite counts will increase during the fall as brood disappears from the hive. Make sure your thresholds account for that.


Actually according to the writing of Randy. You need to take a longer sampling during bloodless periods to get an accurate count if you do not use an accelerant to cause mites to drop. This actually indicates the natural mite drop falls during broodless periods. At one point he refers to a recommendation of a 3 week sample. HE also addresses the impracticality of that for the average beekeeper.

Part of the reason I see for this is that during brood rearing periods 2/3 of the mite population is assumed to be in the comb with brood. At one point Randy mentions that you need to multiply the mites count by 30 or 40 to have an idea of just how many mites are in a hive. And that is during brood rearing periods when 2/3 of the mites cannot drop.

During bloodless periods the mite count will go up. but each mite represents a much lower number of mites in the hive. Because 100% of the mites are now on adult bees and subject to falling.

So if you must treat threshold is 50 mites drop in 24 hours during brood rearing. then it would be the same as if you allowed 150 mites to drop in 24 hours in none brood rearing periods.

In the end Randy suggests that some of the roll or shake methods of testing are more accurate during none brood periods.

This is copied from the writing.

§ Use natural mite drop on stickies when there’s brood emerging

§ Use jar samples or accelerated stickies when colonies are broodless


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I use a simpler mite sampling technique. An alcohol wash, sampling a number of hives within a yard, working on a spring time and fall time threshold.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Splatt said:


> Sorry, I should have been more specific. It was 20 per day total, not per square inch, up from 8 per day total.


This might be normal attrition for this time of year, since the mite load should have peaked about two weeks to a month ago. So, I don't know if that really is a lot this time of year. I would like to know what kind of count you would get were you to do an ether roll from the middle of the brood nest area. I don't know what mite drops per day say, except that mites are dying. whereas an ether roll tells how many live mites are on the bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> I think that getting info from cooperative extensions is a better idea. That's where the information originates anyways.


Have you ever gone to Cornell Cooperative Extension for answers to bee related questions? That's the last place I would send anyone. 

Whereas the site you link to looks pretty good. Thanks.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

WLC said:


> ...snip...When someone rolls up their sleeves, and feeds transgenic agents (and IAPV from CCD colonies), in field trials, and does so for Monsanto, you're getting way too experimental...snip...


That is how you test a hypothesis, and how the scientific method works. 

I too, like the site you recommend, thanks. Note: I see the same names on the research at your site as in the references at the end of Randy Oliver's writings.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Have you ever gone to Cornell Cooperative Extension for answers to bee related questions? That's the last place I would send anyone.


never used cornell but why would that be the last place you would send anyone? just curious.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> This might be normal attrition for this time of year, since the mite load should have peaked about two weeks to a month ago. So, I don't know if that really is a lot this time of year. I would like to know what kind of count you would get were you to do an ether roll from the middle of the brood nest area. I don't know what mite drops per day say, except that mites are dying. whereas an ether roll tells how many live mites are on the bees.


That's good advice, thanks. I'm not sure I'm going to get the chance to do a roll before I need to close up the hive (temperature's been bouncing up and down), but I'll do one next year.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How cold is it? Warm enough to fly?


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> How cold is it? Warm enough to fly?


Right now mid-30's at night, mid 60's at about mid-day. The bees are generally out at about 10:00 and back in at about 6:45 (this is partially because the hive is in a less-than-ideal location). I can open it up during lunch, if I can arrange my work schedule.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Splatt,
Unless you are going to treat the hive for varroa I wouldn't bother doing an ether roll at this time. Which may seem contradictory to what I wrote before. But, unless you are going to do something w/ the information, you may do more damage than the information gathering is worth, at this time of year.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Splatt,
> Unless you are going to treat the hive for varroa I wouldn't bother doing an ether roll at this timer.


Thanks. I've decided not to treat (at least not right now). As you mentioned, at this late date I'd rather not do anything that might have an unintended consequence (brood loss, etc) with potentially negative side effects. But I think you're right that a roll would give me more accurate information.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Just to clarify - hive boxes and screened bottom boards often have different dimensions, and we try to level the playing field for discussion by stating _mites per square inch_ and mention how many boxes of brood are over it. Frames with % brood would be better, or maybe even square inches of brood. Another factor to consider is how sticky is the sticky board? Can mites crawl off your sticky board in the cold? That could conceal great numbers of mites present in your colony, leading to an unanticipated winter loss and misleading information about your bees and their mites. Something to consider when trying to determine VSH tendencies for a potential breeder queen....

Jim Lyon, Mark, and Daniel Y - nice posts!

WLC - Thank you for the link! As far as to whom to refer for info? I'd go with the read-everything-and-think about how it applies to YOUR bees and THEIR little world of hexagons, sisters, momma queen, flowers, temperature, weather, mischief-makers, etc. school of thought... 

So I'm glad we have Randy Oliver (donate to his site, everyone!), the universities, the internet, Beesource, The Hive and the Honeybee, all the other books, Germany's and Russia's and England's and Canada's scientific bee publications, etc. I also am glad that we have the observation hive!


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