# Growth on limited budget/ waiting on financing



## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

Looking for comments on my strategy for growth next year from those that have already been through the growth stage.

I will most likely have at least 10 hives to start the spring, allowing them to build up until the last weekend in May, they should be 2 deeps of brood by then. I will then split the colonies in half leaving the laying queens in 10 of the 20 singles. the other 10 queenless singles will each be broken down into four 4 frame nucs with feeders on immediately, no honey stores. (single deep with a divider creating 2 nucs). 

I am not looking for the nucs to produce anything for me except bees and want them to go through the winter as nucs. On July 15 I expect the nucs to be full of brood and the canola flow will be on. I will then take each of the 40 nucs and divide them into 2 nucs each. This should allow enough time for all nucs to be strong going into winter. I winter indoors.

This should leave me with 80 nucs and 10 full producing hives going into winter after the first year of this strategy.

Remember in our area we get between 150-200lbs of honey per hive. I can sell locally for $4 per pound, wholesale is about $2lb. Leaving me with between $4,000-8,000 to leverage for 20k plus. at which point I can repeat the process above on a much largers scale.

If all else fails nucs are going for over $150 in my area.

My end game is to have at least 500 hives, enough for me to work at it full time.


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## Shouse (Jul 1, 2010)

Josh,

Send me your e mail, I'll be happy to share an Excel spread sheet for budgeting and cash flow management to lay out a strategy for growth. You will need to have Microsoft Excel program and a basic working knowledge.


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

I don't see any allowance for real world conditions.Not everything survives.Not every queen gets mated etc.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

I can, split more aggressively, supplement from stronger nucs etc. to ensure I get my numbers. mated queens can be purchased if need be. queen cells run at $7 saving 7 days on the development. My numbers are not absolute, they are a goal. 

I also realized that I forgot to mention the 10 hives that I want to produce honey will only have 4 frames of brood at the end of may meaning any additional frames can also be made into nucs. Any more than 4 frames and the will probably swarm.


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

You might want to google and watch Michael Palmer presentation to Northern Virginia beekeepers. He runs I think 800 hives and does summer splits to overwinter nucs.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Honestly,

I would do what you can mostly afford. I wouldn't get into huge debt the first few years building up. See how the market is, see how you can handle the workflow etc...


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> Honestly,
> 
> I would do what you can mostly afford. I wouldn't get into huge debt the first few years building up. See how the market is, see how you can handle the workflow etc...


Huge debt is different between different persons.

Leveraging to purchase assets that will return the investment within 2 years of purchase and are also insurable at a very low rate, decreases the risk in my opinion.

I also work in accounting, I understand the money part. That is not my biggest concern.

My concern is finding the quickest most effective way to reach my goal. Not having people say take it easy, you don't want to do this, I want direction/guidance from people who have been in the business for more than 1 year. People who have done this already. 

I want to know what they have done, what they might have done differently. Give me something I can use, something educated by experience not just books.


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

An alternate plan. Split your hives for optimal honey production, not hive count. You will turn a profit that can be used to buy bees next spring. 150-200lbs X $4 = $600-$800 per hive. That might buy more bees next spring than you can get thru the winter. It's a thought that isn't always considered. Have fun.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> I want direction/guidance from people who have been in the business for more than 1 year. 

Since you posted in the Commercial forum, many of the people who regularly post here are commercials. If you haven't yet read some of the other threads here with subjects similar to yours, perhaps you should. Here are two in particular:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?286250-I-would-like-to-be-a-commercial-beek

and

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?289504-Easy-Money!!-Easy-Money!!

Also, look for posts by _westernbeekeeper _and _Ben Little_. They are both relatively new to the commercial side and working with similar issues you face.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

That is more what I am looking for ryan. Thanks for the post.

unfortunately eventually the local market cannot/ will not purchase all my honey. There are many keepers in the area to buy from, some that offer prices $1 per pound lower than myself to the public.

Say I can sell 2,000lbs by word of mouth locally that is 10-15 full hives worth. I then need to sell the remainder of my honey through the coop at say $1.75 per pound on a conservative estimate.

optimum honey production would be to split each of my hives in half in spring.

With 10 hives that would leave me with 20 hives.

20 hives x 200lbs = 4,000lbs.

2,000lbs x $4= 8,000
2,000lbs x $1.75 = 3,500
total $11,500

value of hives $200x20 = $4,000

total value of honey and hives = $15,500

now my strategy:

10 hives x 200lbs x $4 = 8,000

Value of hives
10 hives x $200 = $2,000
60 nucs x $130 = $7,800 assuming 25% do not mature
total $9,800

total value of honey and hives = 17,800

Each of the strategies will require aprox. the same amount of equipment. either for honey boxes or brood boxes.

The second one leave me with higher net value. plus the bees are insurable for the winter. honey crop is not insurable.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

If you want a secure honey market, you may look into joining the SueBee Honey association. Your dues to the club is that they get to buy ALL of your honey, but at their prices, which most times is quite reasonable. But you aren't allowed to sell ANY of it yourself.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

The only thing I would say is watch that second split and how are you managing the intial 40 nucs? Are they going to be 4 frames + a feeder only? It still isn't clear how you are queening them either, if using a cell, your queen will be laying around 2-3 weeks, with the first round of brood emerging 3 weeks after that, about when you want to split them again or so. Do you have drawn comb to make the second batch of splits? What if they backfill heavy in the flow and feeding, and each nuc is 1-2 frames of brood only....


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > I want direction/guidance from people who have been in the business for more than 1 year.
> 
> Since you posted in the Commercial forum, many of the people who regularly post here are commercials. If you haven't yet read some of the other threads here with subjects similar to yours, perhaps you should. Here are two in particular:
> 
> ...


I have read both threads. thank you for your guidance.

Unfortunately the guy in the first thread was far to busy and not really ready to commit to the beekeeping as he had to many things in his personal life holding him back.

The second thread is interesting and I have followed it. Clearly people who think building any business is easy money are missing a few marbles. 

I have done calculations and know that it will end up costing in the long run between 250k and 500k just for the equipment and upgrades included in this, just to get to my 500 hive goal. Not to mention all the work that is involved. But I like bees and I like being self sufficient and self employed.

Thank you for your post, I will look up posts by the keepers you mentioned, I am sure they have many Ideas. I also am in contact with a local commercial keeper who has been mentoring me.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> Looking for comments on my strategy for growth


Some comments might not be what you want to hear.



> I want direction/guidance from people who have been in the business for more than 1 year. People who have done this already.
> 
> I want to know what they have done, what they might have done differently. Give me something I can use, something educated by experience not just books.


You want to be given all these things? Commercial beekeepers are business people, maybe one will contract with you in a business consultant capacity. 
Experience comes at a price, that's the money part too.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

westernbeekeeper said:


> If you want a secure honey market, you may look into joining the SueBee Honey association. Your dues to the club is that they get to buy ALL of your honey, but at their prices, which most times is quite reasonable. But you aren't allowed to sell ANY of it yourself.


We have a local co-op in Winnipeg that operates the same way, only they allow you to sell up to 5000lbs locally. I do know of one beekeeper in the area that ships honey south of the border to sue bee, they are running 1,600 hives.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Clyde is onto something. You should be going to Small Business Classes at night and working bees during the day.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> The only thing I would say is watch that second split and how are you managing the intial 40 nucs? Are they going to be 4 frames + a feeder only? It still isn't clear how you are queening them either, if using a cell, your queen will be laying around 2-3 weeks, with the first round of brood emerging 3 weeks after that, about when you want to split them again or so. Do you have drawn comb to make the second batch of splits? What if they backfill heavy in the flow and feeding, and each nuc is 1-2 frames of brood only....


Valid point, a full deep box with divider in the middle, this year I used 1 inch lumber to divide and it only allowed for 4 frames per side. something I will look into changing next year. I believe 1/2 in. will allow 5 per side. put a upside down queen excluder on there with another box of drawn comb on top and you have 2 nucs with room for stores. I used this method this year to turn 5 single deeps into 20 nucs. I also use 3kg pails as top feeders on each nuc in the beginning.

My idea was on the first set to buy queens, and to use queen cells on the second split. I will have drawn comb to make the splits you can buy it off keepers in the area.

I also ended up getting nearly 1,000 lbs of honey off those double nucs as well


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

In my experience people are willing to give advice or help when asked. Why are commercial beekeepers on this site but to bounce ideas off each other as well. Everyone is here to learn.... well some are just here to show others that they are the smartest person around but share no knowledge. Those people might need a hobby or a friend.

I have a business degree. That is not the issue. And I work a job that pays money during the day so I can turn beekeeping into a business at night.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JoshW said:


> I have a business degree. That is not the issue. And I work a job that pays money during the day so I can turn beekeeping into a business at night.


That's great. I didn't know that. Quite often when the sort of question you are seeking the answer to is asked the person asking does not know anything about business. I wish I had gotten a business degree along w/ my beekeeping degree. That's what I would do differently were I to do it again.

The guys you want to hear from may be too busy right now getting bees ready for Winter or moved to milder climate before Winter, so be patient. They also may be too far away from starting out to remember how they did what they did. I find I don't recall enough about starting out when I am amongst beginners.

The guys you perhaps aught to be seeking advice from are the sideline beekeepers. Seems like that is your next step. Turning what you have into a larger number of hives and into more of a business.

What I read in your opening post sounds like a good goal and plan of action. Doing it, working the plan, will tell you whether it was the right thing to do or not.

Keep your mind open to the comments you get and pass by those you don't find of value. Insulting folks won't draw more and favorable comments and suggestions. Once burnt, twice shy?

Best wishes.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

My prior message may have thrown this thread off course. 

I agree completely that I need to work with bees to gain my own experience. And that is what I do. I do that in the evening as one can not live off of $12 per hour in Manitoba and still build a business. Thus the reason to get above 300 hives, to focus more on bees and less on other interruptions.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JoshW said:


> That is more what I am looking for ryan. Thanks for the post.
> 
> unfortunately eventually the local market cannot/ will not purchase all my honey. There are many keepers in the area to buy from, some that offer prices $1 per pound lower than myself to the public.
> 
> ...


Not to throw a big bucket of cold water on your dream, but all of these figures are fantasy until you actually do the work and make the sale. It's good to plan and to project what you expect, but it often doesn't turn out like you wish, no matter how hard you work.

For instance, here in NY we didn't have such a bad Summer, but the honey crop was dismall. We should have had 20 to 40 lbs more honey per hive then we did. The second year in a row.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

edit


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

Thanks sqkcrk, This is information I can use. I am not meaning to insult anyone just trying to keep this thread informational and on track. I notice many threads that have so much potential to provide information, go way off track and provide nothing. It is frustrating at times for me as someone who wishes for valuable experienced information. I am straight forward and too the point, at times people take offence to that.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Me too.

Don't be too disappointed. You may not get from this Thread what you want.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Not to throw a big bucket of cold water on your dream, but all of these figures are fantasy until you actually do the work and make the sale. It's good to plan and to project what you expect, but it often doesn't turn out like you wish, no matter how hard you work.


Completely understood. In any business there is risk of unforeseen events. I have used conservative numbers in my estemates and do not have to market my wholesale honey myself, the co-op does that for me.


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## Shouse (Jul 1, 2010)

Hello Everyone, In post #2 I offered Josh an Excel Spreadsheet for cash flow management and budgeting. 
I am happy to share it with anyone, however I have been getting dozens of request though my PM I can't respond with Excel via the PM.

Please send your e mail to me at my email [email protected] or go to our web site www.almondbeepollination.com go to the contact area type the word "Excel" and it will be automatically sent to your email.

The spreadsheet can be modified to your specific needs but it is currently sent up with pollination services, honey sales, package sales, and queen sales.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I wish to be honest and say I do not believe you have the right attitude or eduacation. A business mind is not what you need first to be a beekeeper. You must first be a Scientist. Understand Ecology(the interactions of different population groups), Epidemiology(spread of disease), Botany(your bees depend on plants), Meteorology(the plants depend on the weather), and last, Entomology. Most of those posting will have learned these at the School of Hard Knocks , but it sure helps to have the information handed down for generations. 

Your business background has probably been discussing rather shallow subjects, with little interconnected cause an effect. Be care full, beekeeping has many more factors that interreact at different levels. Last years weather may effect next years plants, which may effect mite levels due to different plants blooming(like Basswood) and therefore effect virus levels which effect overwintering which effects your nuc survival. And then there is CCD. How does your plan factor that in?

At least you have a goal and apparent drive. Good luck, you will need it.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Plan looks great! 

My advice, be prepared to have your plans completely fall off track. Every winter I "figure it out" , and every spring I fly by the seat of my pants !

Second piece of advice, make sure the revenue keeps coming in, no matter what


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

I see the math. I'd place my $2 bet on splitting 10 hives into 20 and getting a big crop is a lot more likely than turning 1/2 the brood from 10 hives into 60 nucs. 

That's equal to having 5 hives in the spring and expecting 60 nucs by fall. That's a 12 to 1 increase. Wow. 

My first and main point is, if you're going to be a honey producer in the future then be a honey producer from the start. The money is almost even and the odds won't be stacked against you.

I like cash better than equity and insurance.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

I think I would just explode those ten hives 4 ways and give them all a new young queen and then build them up to a double to go 4 ways later in the summer. It just doesn't seem that the old queens kept back are going to do you justice with honey production after taking half the bees and brood away and you'd probably fair better to market 25% of the last nucs you made. In the perfect world your ten hives could go to 40 on the first splitting and then to 160 on the second splitting. this is assuming you have the equipment to do that. the nucs could make to a single box for winter too. I did something similar to that about 12 years ago.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Here is something I learned the hard way in my early years of commercial honey production (raising bees for almond pollination the following year is a different scenario). Make spring splits based on the income you can derive from them THIS year not a year and a half down the road. If you see a yard where most of your honey is being produced by a small percentage of your hives then you are doing something wrong. All this multiplication looks really good on paper but lots of bad stuff can happen along the way when following a long term plan. I never start a year saying I plan on running x number of hives, instead I let the quality of my bees determine my final number. In short, in the beeyard you must think like a beekeeper first and foremost and not an accountant making projections. Also, categorize your expenses between "needs" and "wants" and dont ever let your bees get shorted on their needs. Needs? Health, young queens, feed, forage and lots of room to grow. Wants? The shiny stuff.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JoshW said:


> My end game is to have at least 500 hives, enough for me to work at it full time.


Maybe this has already been mentioned but is it possible to work for a commercial guy in your area and trade bees for labor? You would also gain knowledge in your area and shorten up the learning curve. Good luck


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JoshW said:


> I am straight forward and too the point, at times people take offence to that.


That's O.K., there's nothing wrong with telling it like it is, sometimes the truth hurts.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Josh, building all these bees, what about your equipment? Is your plan to buy in some comb?
If so, that is exactly how you do it. Build your bees, buy your equipment


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

Ian said:


> Plan looks great!
> 
> My advice, be prepared to have your plans completely fall off track. Every winter I "figure it out" , and every spring I fly by the seat of my pants !
> 
> Second piece of advice, make sure the revenue keeps coming in, no matter what


Pay close attention to this post. It is a lot closer to "real" beekeeping.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

My thought is to find a niche that needs filling. Here in my area it's not a great honey area. But it is a great area to sell nucs. I now specialize in selling nucs and have developed a pretty good reputation. Until I can supply all the nucs I can sell, I've developed a good supplier of quality nucs and I bring them up from FL each spring. It's turned into a good business.


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## reidflys (Jan 14, 2011)

all the best, these bees become a mighty strong addiction
that gets all encompassing,


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## Heintz88 (Feb 26, 2012)

JoshW said:


> Thanks sqkcrk, This is information I can use. I am not meaning to insult anyone just trying to keep this thread informational and on track. I notice many threads that have so much potential to provide information, go way off track and provide nothing. It is frustrating at times for me as someone who wishes for valuable experienced information. I am straight forward and too the point, at times people take offence to that.


I love this comment!!!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have been reading these startup spreadsheets for decades. These boxes are for free here in California and there are probably 500 other of these piles up and down the state. I bet this guy had a similar spreadsheet.


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## Shouse (Jul 1, 2010)

Most likely he didn't know how to use one.


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## Makin' Honey (Sep 13, 2010)

Josh W
I have some experience with double nuc hives. I try to keep about 50 of them going year around. It is completely different then running 10 frame hives. Here are some of my experiences….a 5 frame nuc needs much more of your attention and time…when they hatch out two frames of brood and any honey is coming in they will start swarm cells and swarm…a swarmed out nuc puts your plans on hold for another month or so…when the honey flow starts the nuc is full in just a day…you can spend lots of time pulling out frames of honey and putting in foundation or you can put on an excluder and super them for more room but this needs done before they start swarm cells...I don’t like supering the double nucs because many times one side of the double nuc will go ahead and swarm out…a supered double nuc that swarms does not always draw swarm cells because of the second queen’s pheromones leaving you without a queen on one side….what I have learned that works best for me just before the honey flow is to cut the nucs back to just one frame of brood and bees and put in three or four foundation frames….I work a 40 hr week job and run my double nucs to raise nucs for sale in the spring and summer, so sometimes I have to get to them a day or two later then I want…just this spring the double nucs come thru the winter looking great, good brood and bees…the several days before I went to split them were extra warm and some good nectar was coming in so the day I am splitting them they were swarming with just an egg in a cup…when a nuc swarms they take more bees then they leave behind so I end up with 3 or 4 frames of brood and no queen or and a few bees…this fall for some reason unknown to me and my beekeeping buddies 1\2 of my double nucs are dwindling in bee population to just one and two frames now….if the dwindling stops maybe here in Georgia I can get them thru the winter?....but the loss of bees is already cutting into next spring’s nuc making….even with the extra time double nucs take and how quick they can be in trouble I do like them…they are like brood factories in the spring…I pull brood and leave the queen, come back in two weeks and it’s like you were never there, lots more brood…my 10 frame honey hives make good brood in the spring also and you can make lots of nucs with them, I just found for me personally I have a hard time finding the line between pulling nucs for sale and leaving brood for my honey hives…with the double nucs they are just for bees and brood no question, just easier for my simple mind….if I have any words of wisdom it would be “beekeeping always looks good on paper”……..


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Makin' Honey said:


> Josh W
> don’t like supering the double nucs because many times one side of the double nuc will go ahead and swarm out…a supered double nuc that swarms does not always draw swarm cells because of the second queen’s pheromones leaving you without a queen on one side….


Thats the rub, this technique involves a bit of finesse 
I know of a guy that makes up tripple nuc hives. This kind of arrangement is a neat trick. These nucs can pull in just as much honey as producing colonies. For a guy expanding the operation, and has a bit of time on hand, its a good way to increasing hive numbers without putting any money out, and the way it pencils out, the double hive nuc will actually pay for all its building and maintenance costs plus plus plus!


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I have a long hive I built a few years ago. Died over the winter the first year. this year I'm going to modify it and make 4-5 nucs in it. I can then super it if I need to and should be relatively easy to work it.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

chillardbee said:


> I think I would just explode those ten hives 4 ways and give them all a new young queen and then build them up to a double to go 4 ways later in the summer. It just doesn't seem that the old queens kept back are going to do you justice with honey production after taking half the bees and brood away and you'd probably fair better to market 25% of the last nucs you made. In the perfect world your ten hives could go to 40 on the first splitting and then to 160 on the second splitting. this is assuming you have the equipment to do that. the nucs could make to a single box for winter too. I did something similar to that about 12 years ago.


Thanks for the advice, 
This is somewhat like what I did this year, I split singles 4 ways in double nucs and still made enough honey off them to cover my equipment costs.

I am leaning towards doing what you said again this year, probably will not make a second split anymore.

I will feed until May long weekend and then split all single deeps 4 ways and all hives that have worked up to doubles 8 ways. I should be able to get the same honey production that I would with the original hives or more with this strategy. This will help with covering the cost of drawn comb and equipment.

I will not set a specific goal in how many hives I want to have next year so as not to be disappointed. That seems to be something that has been stressed on this thread. If someone asks me how many hives I want, I will say MORE.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

Ian said:


> Josh, building all these bees, what about your equipment? Is your plan to buy in some comb?
> If so, that is exactly how you do it. Build your bees, buy your equipment


Yes I will be purchasing drawn comb, I do not plan to purchase bees again. Build the bees, buy the comb, just like you said.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

Roland said:


> I wish to be honest and say I do not believe you have the right attitude or eduacation. A business mind is not what you need first to be a beekeeper. You must first be a Scientist. Understand Ecology(the interactions of different population groups), Epidemiology(spread of disease), Botany(your bees depend on plants), Meteorology(the plants depend on the weather), and last, Entomology. Most of those posting will have learned these at the School of Hard Knocks , but it sure helps to have the information handed down for generations.
> 
> Your business background has probably been discussing rather shallow subjects, with little interconnected cause an effect. Be care full, beekeeping has many more factors that interreact at different levels. Last years weather may effect next years plants, which may effect mite levels due to different plants blooming(like Basswood) and therefore effect virus levels which effect overwintering which effects your nuc survival. And then there is CCD. How does your plan factor that in?
> 
> ...


Common sense, research, drive and connections are also some things you should have mentioned. 

I believe you must also have studied Psychology as well as Career Psychometrics, as through my few posts on this site you have already determined my attitude what types of work I am suited for.:lookout:

You may have vast knowledge of the things you listed but if you asked other beeks I am sure many have learned just enough about those areas to get by doing what they do through the things I have mentioned. As for your knowledge in the areas you listed many people on this site will greatly appreciate your expertise and I am sure they are grateful. I will search and see what I can gather from your past posts. Many thanks!


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

Ian said:


> Thats the rub, this technique involves a bit of finesse
> I know of a guy that makes up tripple nuc hives. This kind of arrangement is a neat trick. These nucs can pull in just as much honey as producing colonies. For a guy expanding the operation, and has a bit of time on hand, its a good way to increasing hive numbers without putting any money out, and the way it pencils out, the double hive nuc will actually pay for all its building and maintenance costs plus plus plus!


Right now I still have lots of time. Thanks Makin Honey for sharing how you do double nucs. It is interesting how there are so many ways to go about doing things with many right and wrong ways of doing them!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

JoshW - you give me WAY too much credit. No, I do NOT dabble in psychology, I leave that to the ex-wife with the Pound Head Down degree. I have no doubt that many beekeepers have learned alot in there many years, but CCD fooled a beekeeper of 30 years, and a fourth generation beekeeper of 80 years. With all of the new pathogens, we all have alot to learn, and must do so constantly to stay ahead, or just even.

Crazy Roland


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

JoshW said:


> Looking for comments on my strategy for growth next year from those that have already been through the growth stage.
> 
> I will most likely have at least 10 hives to start the spring, allowing them to build up until the last weekend in May, they should be 2 deeps of brood by then. I will then split the colonies in half leaving the laying queens in 10 of the 20 singles. the other 10 queenless singles will each be broken down into four 4 frame nucs with feeders on immediately, no honey stores. (single deep with a divider creating 2 nucs).
> 
> ...


 I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly. At the end of may you are hoping for 18-20 frames of bees? They are split in 2? So far so good me thinks. Then the queenless 9-10 frame single gets split into 4? This is how you want to come up with the initial 40 nucs? So you think 2 frames of bees will make 5 frames in 6 weeks (July 15) then you can split again?

Jean-Marc


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

jean-marc said:


> I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly. At the end of may you are hoping for 18-20 frames of bees? They are split in 2? So far so good me thinks. Then the queenless 9-10 frame single gets split into 4? This is how you want to come up with the initial 40 nucs? So you think 2 frames of bees will make 5 frames in 6 weeks (July 15) then you can split again?
> 
> Jean-Marc


Yes if I were to use that strategy I would do just what you say and then I will put a laying queen in each one. Is that un-reasonable?

The comb will already be drawn, I did this, this past year and they had 4 frames before the main flow started, I did not split them as I wanted a honey crop from them.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Unreasonable, no, perhaps optimistic. My criticism and concern is after the initial split the 4 nucs are left with 2 frames of bees. At this strength, they are highly vulnerable. Conditions would have to be ideal in order for this to work and obtain the desired results. Generally speaking at that time of year weather is ok but a cool night or two and those 2 frame nucs are in trouble. If it were my money I would probably prefer to overwinter everything as a single, because there is more margin of error for the bees. Based on that desire, I would likely split everything into 3 or 4 units at the end of may and again 6 weeks later split 3-4 ways. At a 4 frame strength bees have what I would call a minimum critical mass and can grow quickly, less than that and growth is slow. Essentially bees could go from one hive to nine and in a best case scenario one hive to sixteen. They would be overwintered as singles, increasing likelihood of survival. Under great conditions they could produce some surplus honey. My 2 cents.

Jean-Marc


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

So Jean-Marc you are suggesting I abandon the double nucs and split everything in single deeps? 

Say for example I went with splitting each hive 4 ways. If 10 of my current hives make it through the winter, that would give me 40 hives if I even just split those in half 6 weeks later It would leave with 80 hives. I believe that this would leave them with enough strength to at least make 50% average production? correct me if this is flawed. Then at least the majority of my woodenware costs to get to this level would be covered within the year.

I like your thinking here. Still looking for my best direction to take. If I could get to at least 50 strong hives going into winter then I could get overwinter mortality insurance, that is a large concern for me as large overwinter losses are known to happen in this area.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

As to the strength after the second split, I don't know if they would get you half a crop. Some years they might. It would be optimistic thinking to expect half a crop from them. Personally I would not budget for them to do that. I would be satisfied if I did not have to feed them to get thru the winter. Maybe a little bit to get fumigillin in them. If you get surplus great, if not you have 60-80 good singles for winter. Spend the money on feed, meds, queens , varroa control... then you do not need to spend it on mortality insurance. With young queens, varroa under control, plenty of weight the bees will be fine.

I would also spend as much you could on sugar and patties as your budget can afford. This money is never lost. Depending the time of year bees either make more bees or they store it... it is not lost or wasted just transformed. Feed as much as you can or as fast as the bees will take it until you get to the 16-20 frame stage, split times 3-4, then keep feeding as much as they will take. At this point you are in dandelions. The more feed you give them the sooner they get to the next stage where you can split them. If at this point you divide in two , so from 30-40 you go to 60-80 keep them as heavy as you can so that at the point when they occupy a single any honey goes into the second box. Use an excluder. If you do this and the bees are a good single by July 25 then maybe you will get surplus. This of course depends on the year. Will they get access to second cut alfalfa or maybe buckwheat? Do you get lucky and the flow goes into September?

On another note if you wish to be a beekeeper focus on beekeeping. If you want to be a honey seller/distributor focus on that. The two do not really mix that well together. Look at it this way, honey in the drum is about $2.10/lb. Either you sell it in the drum at that price or you can buy it at that price if you are short. Beekeeping efforts generate honey valued at $2.10/lb. Peddling honey generate the other $2.00/lb on that same honey. Peddling honey takes time away from the bees cause you need to be at that farmers market, and beekeeping takes time away from the opportunity to peddle the honey. If you have a day job then focus on beekeeping, until you get to the 500 hives. In my opinion peddling takes focus away from the bees. Unfortunately in that approach you do not create demand for your fine honey, but you can make more of it. It is just a choice.

Personally I choose to pollinate, sell bees and make a little honey. If my children would want to set up a honey peddling network or a retail store or a packing plant then their dear old daddy would consider digging in his pocket to see what we could come up with. In the meantime I will keep selling bees, pollinating make a little honey. The point being I can focus on areas of expertise without spreading myself thin on areas that do not especially appeal to me. However a trusted person could persuade me to go along a new path if little effort would come from me, so as to not loose focus.

Jean-Marc


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Josh,
If you have a hive survive the Winter, how many frames of brood covered w/ bees do you think you will have when you wish to split it? How many frames of honey will it have?


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

Jean-Marc, this has been some great advice, not much money around here for pollination, the money comes from the large amount of honey. Staying focused on the area of expertise is very important. There is too much local honey around to make a living in this area trying to be a seller. Wholesale is the way to go here. Bee mortality insurance is only about $3 per hive so as far as that goes I think it is smart to get regardless of how healthy you think your hives are and it gives you a guarantee, less stress over winter. My focus as a business will be on honey production.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Josh,
> If you have a hive survive the Winter, how many frames of brood covered w/ bees do you think you will have when you wish to split it? How many frames of honey will it have?


Hoping to have at least 12-15 frames of bees per hive by may 25th, if it doesn't happen I guess I get less splits out of them. frames of honey are not too important to me as I will be putting syrup on immediately. Sugar is cheaper than honey, and the honey will come yet, pollin patties on the hive as well to promote brood rearing.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What r u going to do to have that much brood in your hives by then? Twelve to 15 frames of brood? How will you keep them from swarming?

Once you split that hive from 12 frames of brood down to 4 nucs w/ 3 frames of brood, how much brood do you expect in 6 weeks?


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> What r u going to do to have that much brood in your hives by then? Twelve to 15 frames of brood? How will you keep them from swarming?
> 
> Once you split that hive from 12 frames of brood down to 4 nucs w/ 3 frames of brood, how much brood do you expect in 6 weeks?


I know this year I purchased singles that had 8 frames of brood on May 25th and we had a very late winter and very cold spring. I would expect considerably better than that if the weather is any better. It will depend on many factors I cannot control. Maybe Ian will put me in my place if my numbers are off for this area as he is quite near to me and has been in the business for a while. If they are off it would be interesting to know what I can expect, I don't think I am far off.

In 6 weeks I would expect 2 brood cycles to have occurred, Maybe 8 frames??? Just guessing here. What would you expect in your area?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm not sure, but I would not expect 3 frames of brood and bees to turn into 8 frames in 6 weeks. Six maybe. But I really don't know. I've never tried doing what you plan to try.

What do others think will happen?


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> What do others think will happen?


if you can do this on a regular basis I would really be interested in getting some of your genetics. especially if they could survive Manitoba winters


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JoshW said:


> Maybe Ian will put me in my place if my numbers are off for this area as he is quite near to me and has been in the business for a while. If they are off it would be interesting to know what I can expect, I don't think I am far off.


To be honest, when looking over another beekeepers detailed plan makes me a bit bug eyed, and I usually skim over most of it get the jist of things. 
12-15 frames of brood by May 25th? Well, if your Tim Ives, then yes, but I would suggest that's a bit much. Id say 4-6-8 frames of brood is what I'm usually working through about that time of year, taking them all to 4 brood frames. ( I count my frames of brood as a frame being 3/4 covered with CAPPED brood)


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

When taking my hives down into nucs, 2 brood frames one honey, I usually work with a 1to4 ratio on average.

I think you said your splitting them down a second time,

One point I would make about making up nucs during the hoeny flow is here on the Canadian prairies anyway, your going have trouble keeping the honey out of the nest and plugging things up. This is one of the reason why we like to build nucs beginning of June, as there is a bit of a dearth to give the queen time to establish her nest and then roll them into honey production mode to take the massive crop. Otherwise your pulling frames all through the honey pull when you should be pulling boxes of honey instead.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

JoshW, although I do not know your climate/plant patterns, your numbers seem optimistic. You may have a few hives that are at your expectations, but no where have I seen allowances made for the failed queen, drone layer, or just plain under performing hive. 

As pointed out earlier, your spitting to near critical mass is rather risky. I think if you do a pure mathematical analysis of the exponential rise, linear growth, and approach to an upper limit pattern of population growth, you may find that there is a more optimal and less risky way to gain population. I ussualy ask "what is the limiting factor now" , and work to minimize it's impact. If it was as easy as your numbers say, everyone would be doing it that way.

Be aware of the dangers of fighting a two front war. You loose focus on one front and you are done. Just ask the Germans how it worked for them. A man has got to know his limitations.

Crazy Roland the German


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Roland said:


> If it was as easy as your numbers say, everyone would be doing it that way.


Now that's _not_ crazy!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

All things being equal, which of course they never are, what percentage of growth is reasonable? Fifty percent each year?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I guess that depends on how much honey is expected to be collected. On a good "average" year, coming off a good winter I will increase my colony numbers by 30%. But then on a bad winter I eat those gains and end up having to buy in stock.
Without expecting a good honey crop , nucing everything out, I'd say a 400% colony increase is reasonable . Then you better buy in those boxes


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## o.molchanov (Oct 21, 2013)

JoshW said:


> I will most likely have at least 10 hives to start the spring, allowing them to build up until the last weekend in May, they should be 2 deeps of brood by then. I will then split the colonies in half leaving the laying queens in 10 of the 20 singles. the other 10 queenless singles will each be broken down into four 4 frame nucs with feeders on immediately, no honey stores. (single deep with a divider creating 2 nucs).


Have you taken into account risks such as swarming, late spring, lack of food and so fourth? What is the general risk strategy fro this project?



JoshW said:


> My end game is to have at least 500 hives, enough for me to work at it full time.


Really cool! I think you will need a direct and powerful system to manage all processes at your apiary.



JoshW said:


> Remember in our area we get between 150-200lbs of honey per hive. I can sell locally for $4 per pound, wholesale is about $2lb. Leaving me with between $4,000-8,000 to leverage for 20k plus. at which point I can repeat the process above on a much largers scale.


The number can be different from year to year. Also you should always correct your forecast at the end of the season because some colonies will need more honey for the wintering


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## HiveOnTheHill (Jun 17, 2011)

I have followed this thread and a couple things came to my mind - anyone else can feel free to comment on this as well:
1. You can make as many nucs as you wish but eventually you will have to deal with these becoming full, producing hives, even nucs produce alot of honey. (and you need this honey to pay for future expansion plans) At what point do you plan on dealing with all these colonies? A large amount of nucs like that could be a time bomb if you time something wrong.
2. 'You can always sell to the Co-op' - I'm not sure if they still have a waiting list or not to become a member. They do have a minimum hive # that you have to have (50). You may be stuck selling as a non-member for awhile- which would be at a slightly discounted price as well as with the new food safety rules in place you may be subject to honey testing fees if you are not registered with CFIA (which is not a fast process)
3. Bee mortality insurance is an option that you mentioned, but doing the math with premiums, deductible etc it is does not necessarily make good financial sense. My opinion is that there are more cost effective, beneficial ways to deal with losses


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

HiveOnTheHill said:


> anyone else can feel free to comment on this as well:


Of course. This is a discussion forum after all.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JoshW,
What sort of Income to Profit ratio are you anticipating? How many years do you anticipate your accountant income carrying your bee venture?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

sqkcrk asked:

All things being equal, which of course they never are, what percentage of growth is reasonable? Fifty percent each year? 

For our area, the range is generally from 50 to 100 percent increase, WITHOUT significant reduction in honey production. About 4 years ago. we where able to split packages from Sheri the first week of June, leaving behind the old queen and one frame of eggs. The other half was 7-8 frames of brood, and we let them make a new queen. This year was not so good. We stole one frame from every hive(over a period of time), and made 5 from 3. Historically, the 3 from 2 is usually possible, it is referenced in a 1924 article about my Great Grandfather replacing winter losses.

Crazy Roland


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

1. If I made the nucs I would deal with them in spring after they had over wintered, this would give me time to get the financial part of it together. Then I would have to re-evaluate my position for the next year. I realize that once I got to the point of say 100 hives to split that 4 ways within one year without having planned it out correctly would create a mess not only that but it would cost a lot. I am trying not to concern myself with that at this time as ones strategy and position must continuously be re-evaluated, and I will need to make those decisions when the time comes.

2. I have been in contact with the Co-op and was not advised on any waiting list. My understanding is you do need to work your way up over the years with pool A pricing. I am in the process of applying for the non-member contract at this time for next year, to sell surplus honey that is not sold locally. I will work towards the member contract when the time comes that I am able to fulfill the requirements.

3. Mortality insurance will cover any losses over approx. 30%. A loss of 30% can be recovered without much effect on honey production and is near the Manitoba mortality rate. on 100 colonies it would cost $373 to insure at the high rate. That cost is less than having to purchase 2 new colonies in spring, or the honey crop from 1 hive. I don't think giving up 1-2% of your honey production to purchase a guarantee that you will not be completely crippled the next year is a bad idea. You may never get anything out of it but your not paying enough to hurt either.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> JoshW,
> What sort of Income to Profit ratio are you anticipating? How many years do you anticipate your accountant income carrying your bee venture?


approx. 70/30 profit/expense in this area for commercial producers not aggressively expanding, and maintaining hive numbers.

In actuality I wont make any money until I quit expanding, accounting will supplement beekeeping until honey production will provide enough to live off of it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JoshW said:


> 1. If I made the nucs I would deal with them in spring after they had over wintered, this would give me time to get the financial part of it together. Then I would have to re-evaluate my position for the next year. I realize that once I got to the point of say 100 hives to split that 4 ways within one year without having planned it out correctly would create a mess not only that but it would cost a lot. I am trying not to concern myself with that at this time as ones strategy and position must continuously be re-evaluated, and I will need to make those decisions when the time comes.
> 
> 2. I have been in contact with the Co-op and was not advised on any waiting list. My understanding is you do need to work your way up over the years with pool A pricing. I am in the process of applying for the non-member contract at this time for next year, to sell surplus honey that is not sold locally. I will work towards the member contract when the time comes that I am able to fulfill the requirements.
> 
> 3. Mortality insurance will cover any losses over approx. 30%. A loss of 30% can be recovered without much effect on honey production and is near the Manitoba mortality rate. on 100 colonies it would cost $373 to insure at the high rate. That cost is less than having to purchase 2 new colonies in spring, or the honey crop from 1 hive. I don't think giving up 1-2% of your honey production to purchase a guarantee that you will not be completely crippled the next year is a bad idea. You may never get anything out of it but your not paying enough to hurt either.


Mortality insurance? What's that and what does it cover and what does it cost?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JoshW said:


> approx. 70/30 profit/expense in this area for commercial producers not aggressively expanding, and maintaining hive numbers.


I'm confused. I asked about Income to Profit, not Profit over Expenses. What you replied w/ seems to be that you expect 70 parts profit against 30 parts expenses. Do I misunderstand something here?

If you generate $100,000.00 in income, what sort of profit do you think reasonable to expect?


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> I'm confused. I asked about Income to Profit, not Profit over Expenses. What you replied w/ seems to be that you expect 70 parts profit against 30 parts expenses. Do I misunderstand something here?
> 
> If you generate $100,000.00 in income, what sort of profit do you think reasonable to expect?


I apologize, the profit over expense ratio I gave has exactly the same information you are looking for. If there is 100,000 in income I would expect 70,000 of that to be profit. Under the assumption that you have all the equipment needed and are not expanding, just general maintenance and repairs required. Before you tell me I may be wrong, allow me to tell you I did the books for a commercial beekeeper in my area and he was at 80% profit on average the past 8 years.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I have always know I was doing something wrong. I have never had those ratios. Some years are losses. Maybe I should be working for you.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> I have always know I was doing something wrong. I have never had those ratios. Some years are losses. Maybe I should be working for you.


What is your average yield per hive? Manitoba average is 155lbs but many producers average closer to 175 and some even higher by my understanding. If you are having losses on those numbers then maybe you could be doing something wrong.... I am going to assume your average yield is much lower in the New York area, maybe pollination transportation costs are eating it up, not sure. But that is what happens here, with canola around every corner, transportation costs will not be as high for prairie beekeepers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Production averages here are comparetively piss poor. Fourtyfour pounds per hive this year from my hives.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Our disadvantage up here is the high cost and availability of replacement bees. A few bad winters can quickly eat up the gains from the better years, not to mention poor summer production years. The trick is to get through those poor years without going broke, so we can reap the bount from the better years. Nothing more frustrating than not being able to take the crop that sits right in front of you because of some other un controllable cercumstance


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