# Damage to bees from oxalic acid vaporization



## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

There is a guy posting on Bee-L that he is doing research on the damage caused to bees by oxalic acid vaporization, he has been told by his state apiarist that this treatment singes the hair on the bee especially the hair on the bees antennae. As I am not allowed to post on Bee-l will someone straighten this guy out. I suppose it will singe the hairs on bees that fall into the hot pans used. but yet not singe the hair on my arms from 2" away with our new types of vaporizers that the Bee-l guys seem to know nothing about. If something is not done we will soon be having stuff come out about the terrible damage done by OAV. So will someone please shine some light on these guys fumbling around in the dark.
Johno


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

There have been other threads here that mentions this guy from time to time but NOBODY has ever shown any truth to this claim. OAV has been done for many years and has saved countless beehives from varroa infestation.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

You got kicked off Bee-L Johno? 

Maybe you are not the quiet and polite guy I met when you were in New Zealand recently 

Anyhow to the topic, for those who don't know, Johno is a marine electrician, and has used those skills to build an awesome oxalic acid vaporiser which he showed to me. Excellent temperature control and would never burn the bees.

Re the guy saying this stuff on Bee-L, there's so many people in beekeeping there's always going to be a few with views at the extreme end of the bell curve, just got to accept them as part of the landscape, seems to me like the beekeeping internet community as a whole is better informed now than they were 10 years ago.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

looks like the guy is just doing research for a paper and asking questions, no need to set him straight, maybe he will be able to set us straight? 

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1712&L=BEE-L&P=197720


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

yep... On like OAD very little work on the sublethal effects of OAV has been done, we should welcome a study on it.

I would guess by "singe" they mean chemical burn, not thermal

Professor Ratnieks - “It is almost too good to be true that sublimation, the best method for killing Varroa with oxalic acid, also has no harmful effects on the bees, and is the quickest to apply."
I think I lot of people swallowed that hook,line, sinker. There is almost always a cost or side efect...
So Ratniek's study got held up as OAV being harmless, and spured the OAV movement to new hights... We are now reading here on BS people doing a cource 5-6 treatment 2-4 times a year... yikes.... mean while in Italy sysnhitec cems stoped working "well" and they have special queens cages to create brood breaks to alow soft cems to work well when they need them too https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-015-0408-4
I think the "vape" culture in the US shows very poor management, takeing the easy way, relying on a singe cem, and abuse/overuse of a pestaside rarely turns out well. The Italian model is likly a good way forward, especially given there extremity low loss rates 

Ratniek's study is here http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2015.1106777#_i2
points to note it was only 1X broodless treatment, only montered the bees for 10 days post treatment for death, no work on sub leathle effects


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## stanton21 (Sep 30, 2016)

I thought the same thing the first time I used OAV. I used a FLIR camera. I put 2oz of OA in a 1/2 inch copper pipe and heated it with MAP gas. Hit the smoke coming out. It was 78degs outside at hte time and the vapor coming out of the copper pipe was around 89degs. So no its not going to burn up bees in the hive. The vapor is cold. You will get boil over if you heat it to fast and to hot that might get a few.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

That's it MSl, its too good to be true so we must find some way of discrediting a system that a lot of bee keepers successfully use. Then go and plug the stuff the experts would have us use, most of which have caused more damage than good Apistan, Mitegone or something and then Amitraz where there is evidence of synergistic problems with insecticides and adjuvants not to mention problems with nosema. I will stick to OAV and continue to keep my bees alive.
Johno


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## Kcnc1 (Mar 31, 2017)

In my view it isn’t either/or. Now OAV works well and doesn’t (obviously) damage my bees. Whereas, mites obviously damage my bees. So I will continue to use it. But, I wholeheartedly support studying the sublethal and or long term effects. Perhaps it will be shown that it causes some long term problems, but it definitely has short term benefits. More knowledge is always helpful. So no need to stick with “I found the solution no need to look any further” or “it appears to be a solution , but I’m nervous there may be problems I don’t see now”. Both of these stances rely on too little information.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

msl said:


> Professor Ratnieks - “It is almost too good to be true that sublimation, the best method for killing Varroa with oxalic acid, also has no harmful effects on the bees, and is the quickest to apply."
> I think I lot of people swallowed that hook,line, sinker. There is almost always a cost or side efect...
> ...
> Ratniek's study is here http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2015.1106777#_i2
> points to note it was only 1X broodless treatment, only montered the bees for 10 days post treatment for death, no work on sub leathle effects


So why would you put more stock in this study, which admittedly followed the bees for only 10 days after application, than you would on the studies used to produce the data used for registration of Oxalic acid. Those original studies done for registration data in North America were done by Mehat Nasr as the Alberta provincial apiarist included comparisons to control colonies, testing of multiple dosages, multiple methods of application, and followed the bees thru a complete winter survival cycle.

For those who think there have been no studies on the longer term effects of OA _properly applied_ on bee colonies, thats only because they haven't been looking.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

msl said:


> .... mean while in Italy sysnhitec cems stoped working "well" and they have special queens cages to create brood breaks to alow soft cems to work well when they need them too https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-015-0408-4



I can't see how this method would be practical for most beekeepers. Sure the efficacy rate is great, but close to half of the bees in the colony are lost in the process. 



> Table I shows the cumulative number of adult bees estimated in the four groups before and after the treatments. ... 51.3% ... in the “Apiguard® plus queen caging” group, ....
> ....The queen caging technique itself presents several drawbacks: it is time consuming because beekeepers spend time identifying and caging the queen. In addition, the queen might be killed either as a result of beekeeper manipulation or due to the lack of re-acceptance by the worker bees when the queen is released into the hive after caging because of a reduction in pheromone. In recent years, this technique has been largely adopted in Italy mainly by small and medium scale beekeepers and, in some cases, by professional beekeepers as well.






msl said:


> There is almost always a cost or side efect...


This is true of any treatment or mite management technique. There is a price to pay, either in colony health or production. I agree with you on the overuse of OAV. If a few treatments cannot keep the mite load in check then another product should be used that is more effective in that particular situation. Every region has it's own unique climate and seasonal considerations. There is no, one size fits all, cookie cutter approach to control the mites.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Being an acid, could very well be it burns tiny hairs on bees antennae. Could do other things also.

But when I've used it, bottom line there is no noticeable effect on bee behavior, or decline in productivity. And at a practical perspective that's about all that matters.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Anyone know what these soft chems are that are being used during brood breaks, if you ask me they would probably be OA.
Johno


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Two days ago we had a nights talk with a commercial beekeeper managing 1000-2000 hives ( with his da) , migrating in germany. Experience 45 years. He says OAV shortens the life of the bees two weeks because of the disturbance in winter time.
He said the law says to use organic acids but nobody has the time schedule for that, so......
He said the bees were susceptible to chalk brood, nosema and 8 brood disease ( bacteria, virus) nobody really knows about, they are because of the exploitation.
He said if the bees were placed in fruit orchards there were so much of insecticides they need no chemicals to fight the mites.
Anecdotal?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

SiWolKe said:


> He said if the bees were placed in fruit orchards there were so much of insecticides they need no chemicals to fight the mites.
> Anecdotal?


That is a very interesting statement coming from a "commercial" beekeeper. Makes me question everything else he would have to say. Maybe I'm missing something.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Mike Gillmore said:


> That is a very interesting statement coming from a "commercial" beekeeper. Makes me question everything else he would have to say. Maybe I'm missing something.


Yes, this is strange. I will ask him next time I see him to the details and give an update. 
In my eyes every insect would be dead. Bees too.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

SiWolke, I think maybe that commercial beekeeper you spoke with must have a very good Da for a beekeeper.
Johno


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

SiWolKe said:


> He says OAV shortens the life of the bees two weeks because of the disturbance in winter time.


Is it the OAV he thinks shortens their lives, or the disturbance?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

How do you measure the chronic, that is, long term effects of OAV on an insect that only lives for six weeks during the summer? The whole idea sounds a little hookie to me. 

I can see the results now...

During testing this past summer, we observed 99.9% bee mortality within 90 days of treatment. OA is obviously lethal to bees. For some unknown reason, only the queen survived.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Johno, some research goes against your world view on OAV and you put out a call to "straighten this guy out" ?
I am not saying OAV doesn't work, or that we shouldn't use it, however if some one is doing work on its subleathal effects why would be opsoed to learning something new? ie the subleatheal effect of OAD causes the bees to shed a skin layer in there gut, drastically reducing nosemea along with it, a good thing going into winter 
maby it does fry the a antennae,maby that impacts forging, maby it impacts nothing things that would be nice to know as you plan out you TX regime. 

Mike it all depends on your flows/loction it is common place in Italy and other over seas locations such a Germany 
Cage the queen at the point eggs layed will emerge too late to effect the work force on the flow, with no brood to tend more bees can forage, release the queen, pull supers and treat, winter bees are razed in an almost mite free environment. your caging a queen at a time a localy adapted stock would be slowing brood rearing any way and cutting back on the post flow mouths to feed 
how ever if you do is so it impacts the work force during the flow you can expect a loss of crop 

in 2013-14 Italy had 4.8% winter losses, Germany had 6.2, (Pan European epidemiological study ) the US was 44.7 (BIP) 
2012-13 it was 5.5, 13.3 , and 44.8

"_The first signs that the party was about to end appeared in 1992, in the Lombardy region of Italy. After four year’s use, fluvalinate no longer killed the mite, and the term “resistance” entered the beekeeping lexicon. We Americans were slow to listen to the Italians, and suffered our own crashes when resistant mites appeared_." Randy Olver

Let us listen to those who have bee fighting the mite longer then us and not repeat the past. They are a windo in to a future for us, and thier loss rates indacte there may be a thing or 2 they can teach us.. (not talking OA resistance)


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> Is it the OAV he thinks shortens their lives, or the disturbance?


Oxalic acid is the best treatment in my eyes if you have to treat, even more than thymol.
It´s the disturbance which shortens the lives of the winter bees, he said.

He told us that his dad forbid him to disturb a hive from october to march, in former times the beekeepers tried not to check the hives the whole winter long.
If you observe how quickly a colony dies being disturbed by a woodpecker working on a box or by a mouse trying to get in for some days, you know why.

But Oxalic acid used once in winter only works if the bees are broodless, so mostly it´s in vain ( not much of a break here) as is the formic acid in summer, which only works if weather is correlating.
Oxalic acid treatment can´t be used more than once in winter because the cluster will not stand this activity.(grooming activity, opening the hive).
Formic acids must be used as 85% if it should work with low temperature but this means a danger to the queen.

So beekeepers here, who want to do legal treatments and not use an illegal chemical ****tail still working without the mites being resistant to this, combine acid treatment with management methods like a "Brutscheune", meaning the treatment of all capped brood combs as one, separating those from the original colonies with queen and open brood for the treatment time.

msl
they were not many beekeepers taking part on the loss research and those mostly lie about their losses. Losses are 10%-40% in germany depending on how long the winter is. There are areas where loss is even higher and beekeepers loose all the production hives. But as loss still is a sign of bad beekeeping in peoples eyes, most keepers don´t admit to high losses.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

for all the people playing with the glycerin/OA strips here is a post from the guy who invented it, in relation to queen damage.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1712&L=BEE-L&P=212947


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

All these folks talking about disturbing bees are really referring to OAD when hives are opened in the winter and the bees are covered in OA? syrup, this does not apply to OAV. When my bees are brood less in the winter I wait for a day of 50 degrees or warmer before doing treatments. The last treatment is overdue due to the mini ice age we are experiencing at the moment but I believe we should hit the 50degree area somewhere after the next 10 days or so. I am all for some research being done on the use of OA, but feel it should be done in conjunction with other treatments of varoa and the results compared not just on the hearsay of some state apiarist who obviously has no experience with OAV anyhow.
Johno


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

“ vap, taking the easy way”

Who said that
Whata load of crap

It’s targeting a pest, efficiently


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

johno said:


> All these folks talking about disturbing bees are really referring to OAD when hives are opened in the winter and the bees are covered in OA? syrup, this does not apply to OAV. When my bees are brood less in the winter I wait for a day of 50 degrees or warmer before doing treatments. The last treatment is overdue due to the mini ice age we are experiencing at the moment but I believe we should hit the 50degree area somewhere after the next 10 days or so. I am all for some research being done on the use of OA, but feel it should be done in conjunction with other treatments of varoa and the results compared not just on the hearsay of some state apiarist who obviously has no experience with OAV anyhow.
> Johno


The bees are not broodless here mostly.
OAV is used, syrup is abandoned. OAV is much easier to be used but OA syrup works better since there is more grooming and it works bee blood.
If the temperature is not under 5°C the bees are coming into the open and freeze outside if syrup is used. With the OAV unit covering this is not happening.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Ian said:


> “ vap, taking the easy way”
> 
> Who said that
> Whata load of crap
> ...


I did
please take it in the full contex (or at least the intended one) ie people doing "a course of 5-6 treatment 2-4 times a year" while a hive is brooded up, often with supers on and "relying on a singe cem, and abuse/overuse "

Siwolkwe I am not sure its just grooming, a few past studys have shown its longer acting, and as a pan vaporizer breaks down 50% its putting more in the hive, however it kills a lower percentage, so brood on OAD kills more mites do the longevity of it, brood off OAV drops more
as an expandtion of the 1st brood break link.. https://www.apimondia.com/congresse...ctor The Best Way - Alessandra Giacomelli.pdf
% mite kill brood on (cage creates artificial brood break)
OAV 14.22
OAD 23.6
Formic 94.50
Cage+OAD 89.4
Cage + OAV 98.55
Cage alone 44.3


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

msl said:


> I did
> please take it in the full contex (or at least the intended one) ie people doing "a course of 5-6 treatment 2-4 times a year" while a hive is brooded up, often with supers on and "relying on a singe cem, and abuse/overuse "


In or out of contex...there has been no abuse or overuse proven by treating hives several times, 5-6 treatments 2 or more times a year. Only have a track record or 55 hives between myself and buddy using OAV to treat for mites and no hives/queens lost in the past 5 years. Also no hives lost to viruses or other problems brought on by high mite numbers since the OAV treatments were started. Treat in 4 to 6 times every 5 to 6 days starting in early March then again the first to mid August and twice during good weather, i.e. warm days when not deer hunting in December or January.

Still using a "wand" to delivery the OAV so not a quick or easy way to treat but worth the time and effort to have strong healthy bees. Really hoping that the OA treatment with shop towels proved to be as effective but that is still to come.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

If all the energy used in treating and all the money spend on treatments would be used for selection to gain resistance.....crazy the priorities we have.

msl, thanks for the link.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

SiWolke this selection to gain resistance has been going on for a long time now and the results are nothing to crow about. Priorities for me and a lot of other beekeepers is to keep my bees alive and to make honey, and if the bees do not make honey what is the point of keeping bees. Maybe Msl keeps bees for other reasons only he knows.
Johno


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

SiWolKe said:


> If all the energy used in treating and all the money spend on treatments would be used for selection to gain resistance.....crazy the priorities we have.


It is that hyperbole that is disappointing to me. It is not "crazy" to keep your bees alive today. Especially if it is the manner in which you feed your family. While I support the efforts of all who are working on selection models, there are no guarantees that you will be successful in selecting an animal that can successfully deal with the parasite or the viruses consistently and systematically within my lifetime -- or the lifetime of my grandchildren. Your priorities are noble -- but mine are not crazy, nor misguided.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I was not attacking anyone personally. I said "we".
But there is so much research to find out more and new treatments which could be used to do more resistance breeding sponsoring. But what´s the lobby?



> Maybe Msl keeps bees for other reasons only he knows.


Like me he does not want to have the honeybee go extinct which could happen in the lifetime of your grandchildren if an insect`s insect parasite is still treated and the parasite wins.( Or rather the virus)


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

I applaud the efforts to select for resistance; Randy Oliver's approach of select and treat as necessary seems reasonable. However, it isn't practical for the small beekeeper. I have found clubs nearly useless and organizing a county or area wide effort would take much more time than anyone is willing to put in.

I finally broke down and purchased 4 queens that were supposedly treatment-free. One superseded almost immediately and another never laid much at all. The jury is still out; we'll see how they do in the spring.

Anyway, that is not the thread subject. OAV is my only practical option due to application requirements of other products.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> there has been no abuse or overuse proven by treating hives several times, 5-6 treatments 2 or more times a year


I disagree.. treating with brood or suppers on is abuse/overuse.. its one thing to do it to save a hive, its another to make it standard management 

so lets look at some numbers...based on the studys kill rates
7 OAV TX 2 weeks apart (7 tx)







2 cources of 6 OAV TX a week apart (12 tx)







A single formic treatment







Fly away split, 1 OAV then recombine, a late fall brood less OAV (2 tx) 










> this selection to gain resistance has been going on for a long time now and the results are nothing to crow about. Priorities for me and a lot of other beekeepers is to keep my bees alive and to make honey, and if the bees do not make honey what is the point of keeping bees


Agreeded



> It is that hyperbole that is disappointing to me


yes



> Like me he does not want to have the honeybee go extinct which could happen in the lifetime of your grandchildren


Name one domestic animal that ranchers/farmers made a profit from that has gone extinct. 

Paraphrasing DR Medhat Nasr- Synthetics are smart chemicals for dumb beekeepers. Organics are dumb chemicals for smart beekeepers. 
I have no issue with the judicial use of chemicals as needed, but we need to be smart about there use. This is the issue I have with what I see as abuse of a very usefull tool by small subset of OA users.

any way coming back to the OG point, the more we know, the better we can plan, so we should welcome some OAV suleathel studys


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> Name one domestic animal that ranchers/farmers made a profit from that has gone extinct.


Maybe not the species but many races. A profit once is not a profit of today. Circumstances of husbandry and consumer´s wishes change. But what race of bee will put up with the difficulties of beekeeping managements plus pest and disease? The more resistant. I´m not speaking about the tf, I´m speaking about using less treatments, bee races not so susceptible to spraying or climate changings. This change of attitude will come when treatment cost prevents profit. This will be if treatments become too much work and must be used too often.
Research experimented with temperature, ultrasonic units, pheromone traps, where is the success? This would be easy to do if it becomes cheap. Does it not work? Yes. There is no pill.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Msl you cannot appoint yourself as the treatment czar, this is still a relatively free country so most of us will do as we feel fit to do . Remember one mans abuse is another mans savior when it comes to keeping bees, and I will continue to do what works for me. As far as Medhat Nasr is concerned I do not see him killing mites between his thumbnails for according to his quote by you that is about all he has left. As for the more we learn the more we realize how little we know.
Johno


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

it is very possabul to follow the pesticide laws and keep bees alive and profitable. kinda of funny that to sujest that is true ruffles feathers.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

SiWolke you mention bees being susceptible to climate change, there is a bee preserved in amber said to be 27 million years old. Bees were around before the continents drifted apart they could tell us a thing or two about the past climate changes that they have come through. Most of this climate change we are going through is called weather. Msl do you not think it strange that the present laws on OA use have lagged far behind beekeepers.
johno


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

msl said:


> it is very possabul to follow the pesticide laws and keep bees alive and profitable. kinda of funny that to sujest that is true ruffles feathers.


Agree! Thank you for agreeing as treating with OVA is following the laws and keeps bees alive. There is no limit (laws) on the number of times you can treat a hive for mites using OAV. OAV treatment(s) have not been proven to hurt bees and has been proven to kill mites. Mites have not been able to build any resistance.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

> The benefits of the treatment clearly predominate the drawbacks.


http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1801&L=BEE-L&P=14863


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

It is helpful to keep in mind that, just like some people still believe the Earth is flat (e.g. www.tfesorg, who BTW, report that 2017 was a _very_ good year for them), some beekeepers will say all treatments are bad regardless of how great the benefit and how minimal the cost of a particular treatment. 

"People who say it can not be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."

JMHO




.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Lots of discussion and papers in Bee-l all on the damage that may be done by OAD and still come to the conclusion that the lack of the treatment will cause greater damage. They still have not figured on the band heater type of vaporizer yet and the 30 second treatment without disturbing bees.
Johno


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

msl said:


> I did
> please take it in the full contex (or at least the intended one) ie people doing "a course of 5-6 treatment 2-4 times a year" while a hive is brooded up, often with supers on and "relying on a singe cem, and abuse/overuse "
> .3


I see what you are saying.
I don’t feel the use of any product as an abuse or the easy way if the product is targeted and efficacy is measured. 
Does OAV cause bee damage, probably agree, I wouldn’t debate too hard against that. 
Just as OAD is hard on the bees, limited to once per season,
I agree with Medhat, you need to put your thinking cap on when trying to use targeted treatments


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Ian there are folks that think and folks that do. I tend to look at the results of what I and others do and do not see much resulting from what some folks think. It is quite obvious that you are a person that does and I am sure you see the results of what you do.
Johno


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

OAV specifically targeted during a broodless period shows tremendous efficacy


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

johno said:


> Ian there are folks that think and folks that do. I tend to look at the results of what I and others do and do not see much resulting from what some folks think.


Well said Johno :applause:

>OAV specifically targeted during a broodless period shows tremendous efficacy

Indeed


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

So what exactly is the purported damage being done to bees by OAV??

I must've missed something...


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

msl said:


> yep... On like OAD very little work on the sublethal effects of OAV has been done, we should welcome a study on it.
> 
> I would guess by "singe" they mean chemical burn, not thermal
> 
> ...


I believe on bee-l the talk was directed towards dribble method. I follow Randy Oliver’s site for good info.


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

In Ratniek's study, the black bars are the OAV. Clearly the most effective treatment for mite reduction is OAV. 

In other graphs, OAV has the highest efficacy against mites, killed fewer individual bees over time, fewer colonies went queenless, had the most frames of brood (were the strongest), and application time only increased as the dose increased (spraying took the longest time).

I'm pretty sure that if OAV were showing even sublethal effects beekeepers using it would have noticed and said something by now, and the manufacturers would be giving those warnings; they have a product to sell and wouldn't jeopardize their potential market of beekeepers. Word spreads fast among beekeepers...

Judging by the strength of colonies (the strongest were OAV'd) and the queenless rate, this study shows me that there are no sublethal effects of OAV.

So Ratniek says "I think the "vape" culture in the US shows very poor management, takeing the easy way, relying on a singe cem, and abuse/overuse of a pestaside rarely turns out well."

He must have forgotten the study he did.

Now where did I put my Provap?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Cloverdale- there is a link to the Bee-l thread in post #4 its about OAV

Joshua- I have no issue with properly targeted OA TX(s), (OAD is my go to, I wish I could afford a provap). My beef is with those that don't, ie people doing 12x brood on TX as planed management 
if you dig just a bit deeper in to the study you will see the points that are being missed
It was one broodless TX- no data on a course of mutpul TX.
there was no statistical difrance between OAD/OAV in colony or queen survivel or mite kill


> Survival of colonies dribbled with OA solution (25/30, 83%) was similar and not significantly different to control or sublimation colonies


while people hail the study as showing OAV is much easer on the bees.......If you take the higest OAD bee kill and the lowest OAV bee kill (2.25g) the difrance is a *wopping 16 dead bees!!!*!



> I'm pretty sure that if OAV were showing even sublethal effects beekeepers using it would have noticed and said something by now


1000+ bees die every day in a hive mid season and we don't notice. How long did it take beekeepers, some of them with PHDs and years of beekeeping experience to notice FGMO wasn't realy working? 

I find it interesting the people who rally against an unfnished study because it challenges their beliefs on a subject..A subject that has so little published data its unreasonable to hold a strong option on it
The beneficent of OAV most certainly out weighs the cost, but it would be nice to know the costs, and as you rarely get something for nothing there are likly some costs.
We have plenty of studys on the side efects of single and repeated OAD TX, time for one on OAV, as there is NOTHING, Ratniek's was the 1st to even look at bee mortailty from OAV

Ian while the "only treat 1x with OAD" is often said on the internet, it feels like a bit of the Mandela Effect is going on(ie every one "knows" darthvader says "luke, I am your father" when the real line is "No, I am your father", the internet has changed the memory of what they saw), there are plenty of studys saying 3x TX a week a part being well tolerated in most cases, and many places in the world were it is used multiply times a year IE Maggi's much talked study on the lack of OA resistance was at an commercial apiary that used OAD 8X a year for the last 8 years. 
now I wouldn't want to hit winter bees more then once, but if your treating broodless there should be little need to.


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## Molloyjp (May 3, 2017)

I lost both my hives this year (first year). I am going to treat OA with a vaporizer next year. 3 Questions:

1. Best one for the money?
2. When to treat after I get my nucs?
3 How often to treat? If it is harmless to the bees, why not once a week?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Molloyjp I cannot answer you first question about the best vaporiser, but I can answer "How often to treat? If it is harmless to the bees, why not once a week?"

Oxalic acid is in fact harmful to bees, *if* it get's into the food chain. OA can kill bee larvae that are newly emerged from the egg, if they eat it. An example of that was 2 swarms I hived during a heavy flow. I decided to do a precautionary OAV after they had been hived around a week, by that time they had built nearly all the comb in their singles, the queens had started laying eggs and just a few eggs had emerged into very small larvae. The rest of the 2 hives were totally full of new nectar.
I vaporised them with around double normal dose. Maybe a week or so later I took a look inside expecting some nice brood frames, but no brood at all, just eggs. Another week or so I took another look, again, no brood just eggs. It was 5 to 6 weeks before any actual brood started appearing in the hives and then it was spotty, and a couple of months before things normalised. What I realised was because the swarms did what newly hived swarms do if they can, the entire comb area of the hive at the time I vaporised was covered in thinly spread out newly collected nectar. Of course this represented most of the surface area in the hive and is where most of the OA ended up, right in the food that was being fed to new larvae.

This is why OA drizzle if overdone will suppress brood raising, the drizzle contains sugar, is licked up by bees, and is more likely that some will get into the food supply. One drizzle per season has been shown to have negligeable effect, but more than one and effects start becoming noticeable. One study found that hives treated in fall with OAD twice, had 30% less brood the next spring than the hives that were only drenched once.

In a normally functioning hive, unsealed food nectar in the brood nest only represents a small amount of the total surface area, and it also appears that bees do not ingest much OA if it has been vaporised into the hive, it contains no sugar. So for practical use OAV can be done many times without noticeable side effects such as larvae being killed. But OA is still a poison, doing it once a week, every week, may be pushing the boundaries.

I googled but could not find the particular study showing reduced brood in spring after multiple dribbles. so instead, this from Randy, which kind of backs it up
"As far as winter broodless dribbling, it is absolutely critical to treat them only once, with exactly the right amount and concentration of OA. More than one winter treatment clearly hurts the bees. *Charriere and Imdorf (2002) found that colonies treated with 5-6 ml/seam of 3% OA were only 85% the strength of controls by April 25*. The best review is in Anonymous (1999). Typically, winter bees treated with OA start out a little slower, but catch up by the end of March".
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Malloyjp, when I bought my first vaporizer I bought the Varrocleaner from Oxavap. It was relatively inexpensive and very fast for a wand type vaporizer. I loved it (and still have it) and would recommend it. The metal entrance blocker the unit has is put on poorly and I ended up using duct tape to keep it in place. As for the rest of your questions, Oldtimer's advice is right on. I would not treat with OAV when you install the nuc. I feel Apivar would be a better choice.


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## vtbeeguy (Jun 10, 2016)

Molloyjp learn how to do an alcohol wash for mites that will let you know when to treat. I also have a varrocleaner has worked great for me. As far as the treatment regiment to use mine might not be the best example to follow in fact I'm pretty sure my use of OAV would have a few on here blowing a gasket but my bees are healthy and my mite counts low and that's all that matters.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

msl, I have to disagree 
Registration of the OAD in Canada quite a few years back suggested within their product use recommendations to only use OAD once per season, (we having three during our Bee season) and no more than 2g treatment In A 5mm dosage regardless the hive size.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I see "season" vs "year" makes sence. Do you have a link? 
The only CAN stuff I found didn't draw a difference or a limit on TX
My understanding is the US label is more or less a clone of the CAN one, and neither draw a difference between oad/oav use or place a limit on TX per season/year
https://www.honeycouncil.ca/documents/29575 Approved E label 04Nov2010.pdf

but some CAN sources http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/food/inspection/bees/2014-treatment.htm say..._Oxalic acid should be used only as a follow-up treatment in the late fall, after a primary early fall treatment_
I don't see the published research, or the field experience of beekeepers supporting that suggestion of narrow use, Perhaps a local issue? 
But for for most of the world, OA being only a clean up after a primary TX is far from the case. 

vtbeeguy its not about blowing a gasket, please fee free to post what is working for you....(iirr) In your state Mike Palmer found OA to be ineffective in his operation and now runs his stock on a 1x aspatian a year and there are quite a few high profile TF keepers in your area, information is information.
maby some one chimes in with a better way, maby not
as a side note for fun... I had a cousin named Alan, my parents 1st dog was named Ethan, and my name sake was Seth Warner. I may be in the rockies, but the green mts run threw me


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

msl said:


> Mike Palmer found OA to be ineffective in his operation and now runs his stock on a 1x aspatian


Not heard of this treatment, did google it but nothing came up with regards a treatment so interested to know what aspation is?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

beekuk said:


> Not heard of this treatment, did google it but nothing came up with regards a treatment so interested to know what aspation is?


Probably meant "Apistan"

https://www.centralapiary.com/


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

shinbone said:


> Probably meant "Apistan"
> 
> https://www.centralapiary.com/


I did think of that, but then thought maybe not as most mites are resistant to it, also thought it may of been Apivar, but it is spelt so different from this, so thought can't be, must be something new Iv'e not heard of yet.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Its really a good thing that Apistan accumulates in the wax of the comb cause of course that does bees no harm, besides the mite resistance. I would rather use Tactic.
Johno


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

msl said:


> I see "season" vs "year" makes sence. Do you have a link?
> The only CAN stuff I found didn't draw a difference or a limit on TX
> My understanding is the US label is more or less a clone of the CAN one, and neither draw a difference between oad/oav use or place a limit on TX per season/year
> https://www.honeycouncil.ca/documents/29575 Approved E label 04Nov2010.pdf
> ...


http://manitobabee.org/hive/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/2014_recommendations_Mar31_final12.pdf

I have to concede on two points. Looks like they have removed the “treat once per season” recommendation. Also the recommendated treatment dose is not 5mm total, but 5mm per seam of bees, with s total treatment douse of 50mm per unit. I think I’m going to suggest they make an amendment to include the type of resperator used when applying the OAV. Beekeepers are asking, and this stuff is dangerous!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

johno said:


> Its really a good thing that Apistan accumulates in the wax of the comb cause of course that does bees no harm, besides the mite resistance. I would rather use Tactic.
> Johno


I’d say amitraz has proved to be useful in order to combat the mites,
I fear it’s probsbly one of the main factors influencing our current state of hive problems right now. 
It hampers the viability of drone fertility, screws with navigation and binds up the bees detox systems. 
Low dose kills mites good for the hives, long term the thriftiness of our colonies suffer


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Surely Ian amitraz cant be as bad as OAV for treating bees, someone claims that OAV could singe the bees eyebrows! wow. As for being dangerous Msl don't go anywhere near water, breathing it in can be extremely dangerous, I think more people have croaked from breathing it in than people have croaked from breathing in OA. But then again that is a matter for common sense which does not appear to be common at all. OAV once it gets 2 or 3 inches from the heat source becomes a solid particle and any good fitting particle filter will prevent ingression into the breathing passages. I did not say lungs because it would take a great deal of self control to stay in a cloud of OAV once you get a whiff of it. About this I do not think, I do.
Johno


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I was trying to write Apistan, but the correct answer is amitraz. I took the time to dig up my source this morning 
https://youtu.be/6GF3TOKf97U?t=15m49s

vtbeeguy he goes in to why he feels OAV didn't work for him at 22:58
https://youtu.be/6GF3TOKf97U?t=22m58s

swinging back to this


> I'm pretty sure that if OAV were showing even sublethal effects beekeepers using it would have noticed and said something by now


_"I wouldn't know what a sublethal effect was if they crept up behind me and bit me on the ass"_-Mike Palmer (28:17) 
If MP ain't goring to see it coming, most beekeepers would miss it as well, especial if the internet told them there is nothing to be looking for. 
Why the resistance to the study? It either reinforces your point of view or you learn something from it, neither out come is bad.

Be it the Backyard Bonders (who expect puppy mill package bees to be come TF stock simply by stoping TXs) or Vape Heads (continual non targeted TXs do no harm ) Belief based beekeeping is problematic, offen a bad game of telephone with the advice given just being repeating what they hurd, repeated enuff and it becomes truth to people... Challenge their beliefs and people then react negativity. 

a open mind is often the best path.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

The reason most commercial beekeepers do not use OAV is because it is labor intensive and as long as amitraz works they will mostly go in that direction. Why I am making a noise about the so called sub lethal effects of OAV is because they are not comparing it to the sub lethal effects of other commercial treatments and so many of the self called experts claim it to be of no value and would like to discredit the use thereof and rather as some of them tout return to the Dowda method of mite control.
Johno


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

The methods of other beekeepers needs to be put in the context of their overall methodology and location. Cherry picking one liners to legitimize 
a point of view, or worse to beat down other points of view, helps no one.

If a beekeeper is aware that amitraz use has shown no adverse effects on drones or queens in their q rearing operation, they sure as hell know what sub lethal effects are.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

msl said:


> Belief based beekeeping is problematic, offen a bad game of telephone with the advice given just being repeating what they hurd, repeated enuff and it becomes truth to people


Why don't you tell us how you do it Dr Oxalic? I've never seen a post where you detail how you treat or don't treat or if you even have bees. Please share your expert experience and methods with the group, or are you just repeating what you ... hurd


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Why I am making a noise about the so called sub lethal effects of OAV is because they are not comparing it to the sub lethal effects of other commercial treatments and so many of the self called experts claim it to be of no value and would like to discredit the use thereof and rather as some of them tout return to the Dowda method of mite control.


If there is no study how can they compare?
So your stance is OAV is being persecuted by big AG? fits well in with the issues of "belief beekeeping" in my preivius post..
Simply typing "bank TX" sub lethal effects in to goggle scholar and you will get plenty hits for the standard mite TXs, its not like that information is being suppressed 

I don't think any reanisbul beekeeper or researcher would claim OAV is of no value, but neither would they claim its magic dust for year round use as your sole method of control 



> The methods of other beekeepers needs to be put in the context of their overall methodology and location. Cherry picking one liners to legitimize


I linked the video so people could have the full contex



> If a beekeeper is aware that amitraz use has shown no adverse effects on drones or queens in their q rearing operation, they sure as hell know what sub lethal effects are.


That is a reasonable counter point, but does not exclude the 1st qoate.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

True true Msl, belief based stuff is not much good, that is why I am taking no notice of the arguments you put up. As I say with OAV I do and for the past 4 odd years I have done just that. I did not think about it or think about what other persons have said about it. Your piece about OAV and MP, appears to be a climate thing and was never said to be a silver bullet. As I have mentioned it is too time consuming for most commercial beekeepers because of the multiple treatments required which would also have to include many mite checks along the way and besides it also depends on the type of device you use.
Johno


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Jono the MP bit was not intended as anti OA in any way, I agree it is likely a climate thing. My intent was it might provide VTbeekeeper with some insite as he seemed to indacate it took a lot of OA to keep things under contoral in his area and MP's thought on why might help him tweek his redgemnt to be more effective. Ie maby he was treating too cold to get good custer pentration as mp sujests... a ineffective winter TX can lead you chasing the mites all year once the brood is on... in Ian's latest video he seems to get good knock down with a fall brood less TX... if some one is not getting good results, its wize to look in to why 



> Please share your expert experience and methods with the group, or are you just repeating what you ... hurd


I am repeating what I can find peer reviewed published studies to back, and siteing the study
I am not the one here who spent their summer fogging FGMO after they saw a youtube video, how did that work out for you? You trolled the bait, I bit:kn:

In the sprit of leaving some of the nastiness behind -I run resistant stock, splits,brood breaks, drone culling and a single broodless OAD.. Hives that don't make the cut with that regime(5% brood on mite load) get 3x OAD and requeend/broken in to nucs/or marked to be broken up for resources come spring. 
if your in the mood to do some diging most of my info, including monthly mite counts for this year,different manipulations etc can be found scattered in this thread http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...tead-of-bond-as-the-path-to-TF-for-new-back-y


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I’m not in the conversation at hand, but let me be very clear...
You must use an organic particulate acid gas cartridge on your respirator while treating with OAV. It is nearly impossible to avoid exposure while treating a yard. Any type of filter less that this will harm your lung health


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Ian said:


> I’m not in the conversation at hand, but let me be very clear...
> You must use an organic particulate acid gas cartridge on your respirator while treating with OAV. It is nearly impossible to avoid exposure while treating a yard. Any type of filter less that this will harm your lung health


Amen!


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

rwurster said:


> Why don't you tell us how you do it Dr Oxalic? I've never seen a post where you detail how you treat or don't treat or if you even have bees. Please share your expert experience and methods with the group, or are you just repeating what you ... hurd


RW,
Did you ever get an answer to your questions. Many of us would love to hear the answers.
:scratch:


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