# Feral bees and varroa



## Timbo61 (May 19, 2004)

How have wild honey bees coped with varroa in Europe and America? I have heard differing opinions and anecdotal reports but I have never seen hard facts. Has any proper research been done anywhere?

Timbo


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

Here in NY the Dyce Lab of Cornel did a study on property that they own. It was noted that most if not all the wild hives has succumed with in one to two years after establishment. This was a few years ago. It seems now that going over the same areas of the woodlands that they did back then, the bee trees are starting to have bees staying alive longer. Slow but steady. You may want to go onto thier webb site and see if you can get an e-mail out to thier department and have them send you a report or a webb site. Also be nice if you relayed the info to us here. Thanks
Dan


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I find feral bees. Some are the dark leather colored wild Italians that I have always seen, but more and more I see black ones that look more like the "german black bees" in the old bee books. A lot of the feral bees died. But they are making a comeback. I have quite a few hives of them now. I know that's a oxymoron. What do you call a re-domesticated feral bee?


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

MB I've notice that too. Some of the wild ones here are quite black. They have a light stripe, one or two (gray colored)underneath. MMMM maybe this is the mirical bee we all are looking for. How is the temp, honey, pollen, work 'ethic' of these bees? I have had russian and now have NWC and they don't look at all like them. Can you show us a pic of the ladies when you get a chance? Thanks. Oh yeah most important, do you use FGMO on them or other 'stuff'? Be interesting how they put up with the mite.
Dan


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>MB I've notice that too. Some of the wild ones here are quite black. They have a light stripe, one or two (gray colored)underneath. 

That's the one.

>MMMM maybe this is the mirical bee we all are looking for. How is the temp, honey, pollen, work 'ethic' of these bees?

They are my most prolific and productive hives.

Temprament is unpredictable. Some are nice. Some are a bit excitable. None of them are viscious. I'm raising queens from the calmer ones.

> I have had russian and now have NWC and they don't look at all like them. Can you show us a pic of the ladies when you get a chance?

Well this isn't a picture of mine, but it looks just like them:
http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/textlinks.html 

>Oh yeah most important, do you use FGMO on them or other 'stuff'? Be interesting how they put up with the mite.

I combined a queenright hive of the black bees with a queenless hive of varroa mite infested Buckfasts. Without any treatments by fall they had cleaned up the mites in the hive to where I couldn't detect any. I treated them in the fall with Oaxlic acid vapor anyway because, although they are in my outyard, I wanted to take them to my main beeyard (my backyard) to raise queens and I have to have mine inspected so I can ship bees.

Plus, they were surviving before. When I got them they had been a swarm that had been put on large cell foundation. I put them on small cell and natural sized cell.


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

YES!!! Those are the ones I'm seeing. Wow.
Good luck with the queens. And by the looks of things you also have COLD weather there. I get down to -30F here. Thanks.
Dan

[This message has been edited by bjerm2 (edited June 24, 2004).]


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## Timbo61 (May 19, 2004)

That's encouraging. I am in the uk and all my bees came as swarms. Of course you don't know where the swarm came from, and in any case most beekeepers are amateurs here and rarely buy in queens. They are blackish but probably of mixed origin and I don't dare see if they will survive varroa untreated but I am gradually replacing brood frames with foundationless.

Timbo


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

Timbo61, Hi from accross the big pond. If I may ask and your willing, try to see if one or two experimental hive survive with out anything speical being done to them. This might give you a good indication as to how resistant (tolerant) they are to the mites. I would though have the bee hive up a foot and with a screen bottom. I think with the bees grooming they also knock down the mites and if the mites fall to the bottom of the hive then they will fall through the screen and outside the hive were there are no other bees to reattach themselves to. 
Dan


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## Timbo61 (May 19, 2004)

Bjerm wrote:

...try to see if one or two experimental hive survive with out anything speical being done to them.

Maybe. I wouldn't want to do it in my apiary though. I have heard a single heavily infested hive can bring the others down. I also have a neighbour with 20 hives who might be effected. I treat them with Apiguard (thymol) never bayvarol or apistan.


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

I use FGMO with thymol in a propain fogger. It seems to be working very well in my area. I usually do the fogging in the early evening. I do this one a week.
Good luck with your hives.
Dan


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## ox (May 15, 2004)

WOW! Those dark bees are exactly like the ones from my surviver hive! 0_0 Although some of the bees look like dark Italians. They're a mixed bag of sorts.

------------------
the ~ox-{ at www.singingfalls.com


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## Timbo61 (May 19, 2004)

Partially answering my original query I found the following post on sci.agriculture.beekeeping. Credit to someone called paghat the ratgirl.

Does anyone know what this Texas study was/is?

Timbo
[Quoted text follows]

> >The mites are endemic coast to coast and feral colonies last barely
> >one winter, if that.
> 
> Bull. I know of a wild hive that alive and well and has been for
> twenty years. While the varroa mite has made a big impact it has
> not wiped all feral colonies off the continent.

It might not be quite "bull," but there is every indication that honeybees
are making a come-back, the survivors of the initial mite infestations of
the 1990s seemingly increasingly capable of fending off the parasites. 
Feral honeybee populations reached a low point five years ago & have in a
few regions returned in force. It's still too soon to know if the
nationwide epidemic will ever be reversed, but regional comebacks have
been promising. 

For instance, a Texas A&M study showed rapid feral bee decline between
1995 & 1996, & it was at that time it became bandied about that they were
headed for extinction. But from 1996 to 1999, the feral bee population in
the study area nearly doubled. This has not yet made up for the alarming
losses that occurred in 1995/6, but it is nevertheless more than a
marginal improvement. And, of course, far less newsworthy than "Bee
extinction eminant!" so the return of the wild honeybees is not so much in
the news. 

Some have speculated that the parasitic mite was being to some slight
degree scapegoated, & the bees could always have fended against the mites
if not already stressed by the widespread use & misuse of pesticides &
herbicides, loss of habitat, decline in the keeping of managed bees (many
of the ferals being escapees), a cultural shift that permits the
intentional destructiton of bees or even outlawing of beekeeping in
populated areas where anything of nature becomes hated.

In regions where even one of the other elements levels off, so too the
feral bee losses levels out or slightly reverses, so that some studies
will not state outright that the mites were ever the lone cause of bee
population collapse. When the decline leveled off & in some regions began
to reverse, it was speculated that the bees were becoming adapted to the
parasites, but improved or safer methods of pesticide use & additional
bans of certain chemicals may also be assisting the feral bees.
Africanized bees additionally are not very susceptible to the mites, plus
the famed dangerousness of the Africanized bees seems to be lessening the
further north they go, so that the return of the honeybees may have some
association to their africanization. There are more theories than
definitive answers for any of this.

An additional factor not perfectly understood is the capacity for
honeybees to drop in population as a natural survival-positive reaction to
new environmental stresses. Bees as a survival strategy drop in population
when resources are less available, when disease attacks, where Africanized
bees become too competitive; or in drought years or unexpectedly lengthy
winters. The survivors form the basis of an increased population when poor
conditions for the bees recitifies itself. This may have applied even to
the stresses caused by the parasites, which themselves began to die out as
their host population dropped rapidly as a natural survival mechanism.

Habitat issues too are just as complex. Just two examples. 1) In areas
where oaks were removed due to disease or fear of fires, feral bee
populations declined most rapidly. Turns out 80% of hives will be in
living oak mottes if they are available. All other trees combined amounted
to less than 20% of hive locations, & hives are smaller & less populous in
the alternative choices. So where oak populations decline, feral bees
decline, & where oaks are plentiful, bees too were more numerous. 2) Even
in areas where tree loss is not substantial & potential hive-locations
numerous, changes in the flower populations can cause rapid bee decline
due to meadows being developed into stripmalls or invasive species
displacing preferred pollin sources or even nature's own course changing
flowery meadows into shrubbier land, or shifting weather patterns or
unusual-weather years. The Texas A&M study indicated that changes in
pollination factors were at least as important as the mites in the
population implosion of the mid-1990s. 

Between the speculations, a couple main issues arise as pretty certain:
eve in rural locatons, human activity in removing needed wildflowers, or
needed trees, or both, causes bee decline; & in urban & suburban
locations, the main thing has been pesticides. In all cases, if the mites
can be blamed as the key hazard to bee populations, there will be no
political pressure to stop developing all the land, clearing all the
woodlans, & herbiciding every meadow as fire hazards or "vermin" hiding
places.

I'm seeing more honeybees this hot week than I've seen for a great long
while, but in our case, very likely there is a maintained hive within a
square mile. There's also a huge increase in colorful little beeflies.


[This message has been edited by Timbo61 (edited July 15, 2004).]


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

Good article on this in the current issue of Bee Culture. 

------------------
Rob Koss


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## DanO (Jun 11, 2004)

The bees and mites have coexisted for millions of years. Over time the bees have developed one sure fire technique to deal with an infestation of deadly parasites... They die! The mites cannot survive without the bees so the mites will also die.

Isolated pockets of bees that have avoided the mite infestation will be able to quickly repopulate the region. Colonies with low mite levels will be able to build up faster and be more likely to swarm. Individual bees carrying mites will be weaker and less likely to keep up with the swarm. So when a swarm reaches it's new home there is a good chance that it can be mite free. If this swarm has migrated deep into a region where the mites have killed all the previous occupants there will be no mites to re-infect the colony before it swarms again.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The bees and mites have coexisted for millions of years.

The currently held theory is that the EHB's have NOT coexisted with the mites. That they are the natural parasite of Apis cerana. Of course more recent MDNA testing shows that the Varroa we have are not related to these. So maybe you are right.

>Over time the bees have developed one sure fire technique to deal with an infestation of deadly parasites... They die! The mites cannot survive without the bees so the mites will also die.

True, they do, I don't think that's a very efficient method to handle them.

>Isolated pockets of bees that have avoided the mite infestation will be able to quickly repopulate the region.

I have not seen any bees that mange to avoid infestation. I HAVE seen bees that managed to survive infestation.

>Colonies with low mite levels will be able to build up faster and be more likely to swarm. Individual bees carrying mites will be weaker and less likely to keep up with the swarm.

I haven't seen any "weaker and less likely to keep up with the swarm" bees with mites. They are either healthy adults with mites or they are deformed, not directly because they have a mite, but because of viruses. My bet is you won't lose very many of the bees with mites in a swarm. Bees bring mites back all the time too, and fly with mites on them all the time. Sometimes with several mites on them.

>So when a swarm reaches it's new home there is a good chance that it can be mite free. 

My guess on the odds is that there is NO chance it will be mite free.

>If this swarm has migrated deep into a region where the mites have killed all the previous occupants there will be no mites to re-infect the colony before it swarms again.

It's a nice theory and I wish it were true, but I do not think it is.


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

DanO
But in order for a hive to swarm it must have a good amount of bees so that they can start house keeping activities. The ones that swarm have a natural ability to tolerate the mite. Like all populations (species) on this planet only the adaptable and the strong will survive.

Timbo61
That was a very good article.







Thank you for sharing that with us.
Dan


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## ox (May 15, 2004)

The discussion prompted me to go for a jaunt to the back of our canyon. Very likely place for feral bees. Unpopulated area alternating between ancient old growth stands and logged over areas. About seven miles back in I found a patch of fireweed. Low and behold! Honey Bees for sure. There are areas of huge white oaks also. Makes me want to go hunting next spring.

------------------
the ~ox-{ at www.singingfalls.com 

[This message has been edited by ox (edited July 15, 2004).]


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## DanO (Jun 11, 2004)

<quote>I haven't seen any "weaker and less likely to keep up with the swarm" bees with mites. They are either healthy adults with mites or they are deformed, not directly because they have a mite, but because of viruses. My bet is you won't lose very many of the bees with mites in a swarm. Bees bring mites back all the time too, and fly with mites on them all the time. Sometimes with several mites on them.<\quote>

I was unaware that mites don't weaken colonies and especially that mites don't weaken individual bees. This changes everything.


The "theory" was based on 3 assumptions:
1. A host population that grows and migrates.
2. A parasite that is dependent on the host and deadly to the host.
3. Either geographic barriers that isolate sub-populations for a time
or a reduction in the ability to migrate when infected.
If any of these assumptions are invalid then the theory doesn't apply. 

<quote>This may have applied even to the stresses caused by the parasites, which themselves began to die out as their host population dropped rapidly as a natural survival mechanism.<\quote>

Note that this survival mechanism isn't a conscious choice of the bees. It just happens.

I don't know if the bees have experienced any major population crashes to the point of near extinction like one animal that has been extensively studied. But it is one of the mechanisms that can convert a populations genetic diversity into a genetic shift. which is another way to escape the ravages of the deadly parasite.

[This message has been edited by DanO (edited July 16, 2004).]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

An adult bee that gets a Varroa mite on it looks plenty strong and manages to forage fine, so I can't imagine that they can't swarm.

Of course the Varroa mites in the cells feeding on the larvae damage the larvae but the also spread viruses that cause the developing bee to have deformed wings (and probably other viruses with other problems). Usually the hive crashes, not because of direct damage from the mites, but from the viruses carried by the mites.


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## ox (May 15, 2004)

Well that IS very interesting! I thought that the mites damaged the bee larva and caused the deformities. This is a whole 'nuther thing. Virii are usually overcome by survivers developing an immunity. This would explain a lot concerning feral bees. Still have the mites but are immune to the diseases they carry? It would also explain why chemical treatments, which lower immune resistance in bees by weakening their entire system, are a bad deal. 

------------------
the ~ox-{ at www.singingfalls.com


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It seems to me that there are a variety of possible genetic advantages a strain of bees can have to help with the mites:

1) Guard behavior where the infested bee is not allowed in (ERIK ÖSTERLUND) <http://www.beesource.com/pov/osterlund/abjmar2001.htm> 

2) Hygienic behavior where the bees open infested cells and clean them out.

3) Suppressed Mite Reproduction where the mites are in the cells but fail to successfully reproduce. Is there a chemical that inhibits their success or are these just small cell bees or some other mechanism?

4) Grooming behavior. Bees that knock off the mites by grooming themselves and each other more. I have observed the "get it off me dance" and attempts at grooming. They often fail with the mite jumping to the bee doing the grooming.

6) Early capping where less mites get in the cell. Early emergence where the mites get less chance to reproduce. (this is probably at least partially controlled by cell size, but possibly also partly by genetics)

7) Bees that attract the Varroa more to the drone cells and less to workers because of pheromones etc. and therefore sustaining less damage to the workers.

8) Less robbing. Robbing hives dying from mites is a source of mites in any hive.

9) Immune system. Can the bees provide antibodies to the mites? Dogs do and if they have the genetic problem that they don't produce antibodies, they always have bad mite infestations.

10) Dusting behavior. I have observed bees rolling in soy flour or grain dust seemingly to carry more pollen. What if this dislodges mites? Powdered sugar research would tend to show it could, but do the bees purposefully do this? Would providing soy flour, powdered sugar or other inert dust in the hive help with this?

11) The ability to survive heavy infestations (as opposed to any behavior or qualities that reduce the number of mites). Some bees I have observed are heavily infested, yet they survive. Maybe they have a good immune system to keep them from dying from secondary infections?


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Greetings Guys,

While counting mites and watching untreated bees, bees susceptible to the viruses become very obvious. Crawlers and other deformities can be seen in the susceptible bees even at very low mite infestation levels. When bees are on small cell a rare hive will be found with these kinds of bees. It can survive but will struggle along and isn't productive.

Other bees, like the Russians, can maintain tremendous mite loads with very few external symptoms. Such hives can outwardly appear very healthy but will suddenly collapse with out much warning.

The most susceptible bees I've run have been a strain of Cordovans. Beautiful, gentle, productive, easy bees, but they raised and nutured mites better than young bees. 

Regards
Dennis


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