# Persistent Varroa



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

My question is what the drop count should look like this time of year.

I have two hives:
Hive one: new this year, 3 medium boxes full of bees and stores. I drone harvested all summer. Late August it had less then 10 a day on the drop count. Mid September numbers were more like 15. I treated with 1 MAQ strip.

Hive two: Second year hive, 3 medium boxes full of bees and stores. I drone harvested all summer. Late August I had around 15 a day on drop count. I treated with 1 MAQ strip. 

Now both hives have 20-30, 30-40 plus on daily drop. All the varroa are dead. Does this make a difference?

My question: Should I treat in November with Oxalic? Can you buy this anywhere as a kit with clear instructions? Is it worth doing a sugar roll to see how many varroa are actually on the bees vs. how much of the drop is just house keeping?

Thanks!


----------



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

It is a bit late for general mite treatments now. Look carefully at the label of whatever you use for temperature requirements. I would imagine that you would want a treatment that you could apply without disturbing the brood nest. MAQS does its job in 3 days but is going to require you to separate your brood boxes. I don't know about the others. I don't know of another Formic Acid delivery system approved for use in the US. Oxalic Acid dribble is typically done when there is no brood in the hive - It is a single treatment. Maybe someone here can speak to how effective OA fogging is when the bees are in cluster. I have no experience with fogging and should point out that OA is not registered as a miticide in the US. Your drop to my mind is high - I don't do natural drops and so I don't know if it makes a difference if the mites you see are dead.

A sugar roll has the benefit of not being lethal to the bees which is a good thing as most hives don't have extra bees this time of year. A good sample needs to come from frames with brood on them - meaning you'll be tearing into your hive's brood nest - not something that excites me this time of year.

I'm not sure there is a good solution for you. I guess the best you can do is be prepared for any warm days that may occur.


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

Thanks Andrew, I meant Oxalic, not formic (I corrected it). I am trying to avoid going the wood bleach route and trying to get the dilution right (as posted on scientific beekeeping). I think your right about not messing with the bees to do a sugar roll.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sorry about the late and out of order reply, I type to slowly to keep up!

If you have any more MAQS strips left after the first treatment then you already have formic, no need to get any more.
Sounds like you used the knockdown treatment procedure. The 1 strip treatment is supposed to be followed up with another 1 strip treatment 4-6 weeks later. You don't mention a second treatment. I guess you are still with in the temp. range of 85f-50f but the temps now are on the cooler side of that range at best to do the second treatment now. And brood rearing is winding down. 
From my experience, MAQS takes a toll on brood and I wouldn't be comfortable using it in Nov. because of that. I'm not sure there is enough time left this fall to recover from probably a week or so of a brood break while MAQS is in there, loss of brood due to the formic
and the temps.

When I look at the varroa from my hives I've never seen one move so I don't know if they're dead or not, could be just my eyes.
If they were my bees I'd lean towards using OA.


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

I guess I was hoping someone would say they are just house keeping, not to worry. I hate putting poison on my hives. I guess I need to accept this as part of beekeeping.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Margot1d said:


> My question is what the drop count should look like this time of year.


0 to a couple hundred.

If the brood nest has shut down there is no where for them to multiply so the ones left die. After they die the mite fall will drop to nothing.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> 0 to a couple hundred.
> 
> If the brood nest has shut down there is no where for them to multiply so the ones left die. After they die the mite fall will drop to nothing.


please explain.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Margot1d said:


> My question: Should I treat in November with Oxalic? Can you buy this anywhere as a kit with clear instructions?


If you want to treat with OA vaporization, you can do so above 38 degrees! Even if the bees are clustered, you can treat.......... It is also perhaps the best time to treat (altho I treat whenever I see mites) as the bees are for the most part broodless and one vaporization would do them in. Check the "for sale" forum and my link to Ebay that tells where to purchase both the vaporizer and the OA. OA is also very gentle on queens unlike MAQS. Altho I do use MAQS when the conditions are right.


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

Thanks Snl, I guess I am asking if I should treat, not whether I can treat with Oxalic. I will check the links, thanks for the tip on where to locating it. MD


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

If they were mine I would treat w/ OA vapor now. once a week for three weeks.
Queens here on LI have not shut down yet, still time to get some new clean winter brood. 
Just wouldn't wait any longer.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

clyderoad said:


> please explain.


Must be a trick question... mites breed in the brood cell. No brood, no breeding.


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

It's been pretty warm here. I might wait till November. I am thinking about doing the dribble because I don't want to invest in unnecessary equipment. I think Randy Oliver says you should only do the Oxalic dribble (that is such a terrible word!) one time per year. I found a source on ebay that looks pretty good:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/500-ML-Oxal...463?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cd14dcc3f

I would like to hear some support for Acebird's statement.


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

So you are saying that the damage is already done. Obviously the mite population cannot reproduce over winter but the mites on the bees can still cause damage, correct? How many of these mites come through to spring, and what will their affect be on the spring build up?


----------



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Margot1d said:


> I would like to hear some support for Acebird's statement.


I put Acebird on ignore a long time ago and have no idea what he said.


----------



## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

The bees in the hive have been raised in the presence of too many mites, which are predatory on the capped brood. The result is weak bees that do not do well over the winter and often die when brood rearing starts in late winter.

No way to fix the condition of the bees now, the damage was done last month and the hive will not be raising more brood this late.

Peter


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

Why then is Oxalic acid used as a treatment method in winter, when the hive has gone brood less?


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I don't want to put words in Ace's mouth, but I "think" what he was trying to say is that if you treat with OA when they are broodless you will kill most of the phoretic mites on the bees. If you check your mite drop immediately after treatment there could be hundreds on the board. A few weeks later there could be "0" because all the phoretic mites are dead and there will be no additional mites emerging with new brood.

But, like psfred mentioned, at that point the damage to the winter bees has already been done. Their lifespan will be much shorter and chances of survival lessened. 

It's best to knock out most of the mites in the Fall before the final few brood cycles of winter bees are produced. Then a final broodless treatment to clean it up before they start brood rearing again in late Winter.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Margot1d said:


> Why then is Oxalic acid used as a treatment method in winter, when the hive has gone brood less?


See Mike's response above yours. However, you also use it before you get to the broodless state. Once broodless (and you've already previously used it) it's just a clean-up of the remainder...........


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Queens here have not shut down yet. Why not treat with oa vapor while she's still laying? She probably will lay into middle of Nov. Granted it's getting late, but why not try?
Also there was no mention of any visible signs of disfigured/deformed adult bees, crawlers, larvae being pulled out, etc
I'd treat with oa vapor now and give them a real good shot at not only making past December but to come out of the winter.

BTW: varroa mites live on adult bees when not reproducing. Between reproductive cycles they can spend a month or more on an adult bee until the next cycle. http://www.ars.usda.gov/services/docs.htm?docid=2744&page=14

Please explain was Not a trick question. The mites all die when the queen shuts down? is the mite count in any hive ever "0" ?


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

clyderoad said:


> is the mite count in any hive ever "0" ?


Michael Bush has evidence of this happening without a chemical treatment. So the answer is yes. However, the bottom line is the mite count in your hives are not zero either with the treatment. And each and every year you treat your bees get weaker and your mites get stronger.

Please explain to me how I could ever have a hive survive winter without ever giving them a chemical treatment. Mites must be weaker in Upstate then the Big Apple?


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Acebird said:


> And each and every year you treat your bees get weaker and your mites get stronger.


Brian and you know this how? Also, if that is true, is it true for EVERY type of treatment?


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

While it would probably have been better to have treated more vigorously weeks ago to benefit fall brood, I don't think it is correct to assume that there is no benefit to treating later. The phoretic mites will suck the vigor out of the adult bees and spread viral disease even when there is no brood. Also reducing mite numbers now means that when brood production restarts in a few weeks THAT brood will have a better chance of survival and health. Late fall OA dribbling has apparently been a fairly standard practice in Europe for a while (at least that is what you might gather from YouTube) and was my main tactic for several completely loss free years.

Vapor has some real advantages to dribbling (it can be done more often without damaging bees, and you don't have to open the hive) but if you don't have a vaporizer a once a year dribble is safe, effective, and very cheap. That is why it isn't EPA approved - no one wants to invest in getting something approved that will just cream the profitability on their other (less safe yet inferior) products.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

David LaFerney said:


> .... I don't think it is correct to assume that there is no benefit to treating later. The phoretic mites will suck the vigor out of the adult bees and spread viral disease even when there is no brood. Also reducing mite numbers now means that when brood production restarts in a few weeks THAT brood will have a better chance of survival and health. Late fall OA dribbling has apparently been a fairly standard practice in Europe for a while....


Very true David. Dribbling and vaporization of OA (esp this time of year) is standard in Europe.


----------



## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Margot1d said:


> I guess I was hoping someone would say they are just house keeping, not to worry. I hate putting poison on my hives. I guess I need to accept this as part of beekeeping.


Only if you want to do/accept it.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Well I have been treating with OAV since AUG. and thought they where in good shape and 2 weeks ago treated again and wow glad the mite drops have been just nuts 





even my nucs had high mite loads not all but some.

I was treating with fogging with FGMO form MAY till AUG. and that didn't do any thing for the VARROA OAV is working and I have not lost a nuc or a hive yet and I have 25 total.
VARROA is the worstgood luck .


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

snl said:


> Brian and you know this how? Also, if that is true, is it true for EVERY type of treatment?


..and of course he dosent know first hand about YOUR bees or YOUR mites or the effects of YOUR treatments. What we CAN safely say is that varroa have developed resistance to some miticides. Does that make the bees "weaker" or the mites "stronger"? The answer to that is pretty subjective. With our bees we have drastically reduced treatments over the past 20 years since our initial exposure to varroa. We routinely select select breeders based primarily on our own subjective analysis of hive strength, productivity and low varroa counts and, yes, we bring in some tf breeders as well. Are our bees "weaker" or varroa "stronger" than 20 years ago? My best analysis is not just no but HECK NO. I may not be able to prove that to some but neither can anyone's "blanket statement" disprove it.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> Michael Bush has evidence of this happening without a chemical treatment. So the answer is yes. However, the bottom line is the mite count in your hives are not zero either with the treatment. And each and every year you treat your bees get weaker and your mites get stronger.
> 
> Please explain to me how I could ever have a hive survive winter without ever giving them a chemical treatment. Mites must be weaker in Upstate then the Big Apple?


Another well thought out post, ace. And another one-way conversation, 'the world according to ace'.
Your input has a high entertainment value, I hope those seeking solid advice realize that.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

snl said:


> Brian and you know this how?


It has been proven by mans futile use of pesticides over many, many years. The strength of the chemical doesn't change but the effectiveness does over time.


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

GLOCK said:


> Well I have been treating with OAV since AUG. and thought they where in good shape and 2 weeks ago treated again and wow glad the mite drops have been just nuts
> I was treating with fogging with FGMO form MAY till AUG. and that didn't do any thing for the VARROA OAV is working and I have not lost a nuc or a hive yet and I have 25 total.
> VARROA is the worstgood luck .


Hi Glock, Please explain. Were you treating every week since aug and stopped two weeks ago and then got that MANY mites? What did your last treatment look like 2 weeks ago. Obviously OAV knocks the crap out of the mites, I just don't see how they could have that kind of build up in a couple weeks?
Thanks,
Robbin


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Robbin said:


> I just don't see how they could have that kind of build up in a couple of weeks? Robbin


Those (new) mites came from the brood that emerged since last treatment....


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

snl said:


> Those (new) mites came from the brood that emerged since last treatment....


Hi SNL, 
If Glock has been treating every week since Aug, That would make 6 or 7 weeks in a row, there shouldn't be that many mites hatching from brood. I thought the idea of weekly treatments for a full brood cycle was to reduce the population faster than they could lay and reproduce. Steadly lowering the overall population. If Glock treated of 6 weeks and has that kind of mite count, then we have to use OAV everyweek until the bees start to cluster and there is no brood. I'm guessing that Glock didn't treat every week. Or at least I hope he didn't treat every week... I just completed 5 weeks of treatments, this week will be a two week break and I'll do a mite count. Followed by a treatment with the board still under it the way Glock did. So you get a mite count from a treatment.
Robbin


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Robbin said:


> Hi SNL,
> If Glock has been treating every week since Aug, That would make 6 or 7 weeks in a row, there shouldn't be that many mites hatching from brood.


We'll stop guessing and wait for Glock to respond on how often he did treat and when...


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Robbin said:


> Hi SNL,
> If Glock has been treating every week since Aug, That would make 6 or 7 weeks in a row, there shouldn't be that many mites hatching from brood. I thought the idea of weekly treatments for a full brood cycle was to reduce the population faster than they could lay and reproduce. Steadly lowering the overall population. If Glock treated of 6 weeks and has that kind of mite count, then we have to use OAV everyweek until the bees start to cluster and there is no brood. I'm guessing that Glock didn't treat every week. Or at least I hope he didn't treat every week... I just completed 5 weeks of treatments, this week will be a two week break and I'll do a mite count. Followed by a treatment with the board still under it the way Glock did. So you get a mite count from a treatment.
> Robbin


What I did was in mid JULY I did alcohol washes on my hives and all had mites so AUG. I started treating my big hives with OAV I did 30 day {I treated every 10 days}in a row to get the mites off the bees and then and then I did not treat till 2 weeks ago hoping to have no brood in the hives and wow I had a big mite drop.
So that means the hives where not treated from around the last week in AUGS.till the first week of OCT. I wanted to knock down the mite louds so the bees could get strong for there winter brood laying and now that all brood has been hatched and i'm going to treat 1 more time in DEC. OAV seems to bee working and next spring will tell .
Last year I did not treat at all and I lost 5 hives buy this time and this year I have lost none at all
I look at the sticky boards every time i'm in the bee yards I've had lots of mites drop since AUG. that's when the mite really start kicking in. I am sure if I did nothing I would have had a mess on my hands but so far so good.


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

How many days were the boards under the hive Glock? They look pretty clean other than the mites. I just pulled my boards again. After 3 1/2 days I have around 80 and maybe 125+. To answer an earlier question I have never seen a deformed wing or a mite on a bee. I sampled 100 drones in the 125+ hive in Late August and found 8 varroa. I guess the lesson I learned is how quickly they will increase this time of year. Maybe next year I will have a couple of nucs to over winter but I am not there yet, so I don't feel I can risk not treating. Thanks for all the different points of view, good food for thought!


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Thanks Glock, so that's at least 4 weeks. Still surprised you had that many, but the Fact you had that many on the board proves OAV works. I'm going to take the queue from you and keep treating. I've only skipped one week. I've only got 6 hives and they are 100 yards from the house, so treating them is easy. Think I'll treat thru Thanksgiving and we'll see how they do going thru winter, which is very light here. Our goldnen rod is starting to wane now. When I treat this weekend I'll put boards in. I've always removed them as I new the treatment would cause a large drop. Now I'm curious to see just how bad it is. 
Thanks for the posts, good info here. 
Robbin


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Nvm


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The sticky board count may prove it works but it also points out the limitations of oxalic in a "brood rich" environment and the quantity of mites that can be contained in a single hive. I think oxalic acid,in whatever form you may choose to use it, clearly kills lots of mites but has a pretty short time frame of effectiveness. In a hive with lots of open brood a phoretic mite may not spend more than a few hours on a host bee, possibly as little as a few minutes. How long does a fogging last? I have no experience with vaporization but with trickling most of the mite drop is done after about 72 hours.


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

jim lyon said:


> The sticky board count may prove it works but it also points out the limitations of oxalic in a "brood rich" environment and the quantity of mites that can be contained in a single hive. I think oxalic acid,in whatever form you may choose to use it, clearly kills lots of mites but has a pretty short time frame of effectiveness. In a hive with lots of open brood a phoretic mite may not spend more than a few hours on a host bee, possibly as little as a few minutes. How long does a fogging last? I have no experience with vaporization but with trickling most of the mite drop is done after about 72 hours.


Hi Jim, 
i think you are right, but we're going into the brood limiting phase, I'm hoping OAV will knock the mites back hard before going into winter. I've yet to decide what my plan is for next year. 
Probably start with OAV thur the main flow, then start with something else after I pull the suppers and as the dearth begins and mites are near their peak numbers. Then back to OAV as fall begins and the brood cycle slows.
Robbin


----------



## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

Glock, how long were the sticky boards in place? In almost in all cases my boards have, after 24 hrs, so much debris of all kinds that its difficult to do a mite count. My counts have varied from 20 to 150 at times. Never seen a board with mites and very little else.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

oldforte said:


> Glock, how long were the sticky boards in place? In almost in all cases my boards have, after 24 hrs, so much debris of all kinds that its difficult to do a mite count. My counts have varied from 20 to 150 at times. Never seen a board with mites and very little else.


I clean them before I treat .The boards are 3 day drop because when I treat it seems to take around the third day to get the mites really dropping good and then the mites drop for like a week after the treatment . I think when you put OA in your hives it will kill for around a week that's what I'm seeing but this is my first year using OAV so I can only go by what I see.
I'm getting ready to ad some sugar to the top of all my hives and get ready for winter I'm going to treat may be 2 more times I know I have kill 1000s and 1000s of mite in all my hives and I didn't lose any yet so yay for OAV.
The boards I posted pic of still have a few on them everyday .
When I treat those hives again I'll post the drops. Hope I'm winning the war with VARROA.


----------



## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

Yes...I clean mine also...the debris accumulates during the time they are under the SBB. During a 3 day stay there would be all kinds of "trash" along with the mites. This happens all the time with every count. Just wondering why your boards show almost nothing but mites. Anyone else see the same?


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I keep trays under my hives for the whole season and check them maybe every two weeks. I saw mostly trash. The mite fall I saw was like two or three and at the worst a hundred or so at different times. This was last year.

It seems like I do something stupid every year and kill a hive or two which doesn't give them a chance to die from mites.

So far I would say mites are not a serious problem for me. Or I should say my hives.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

GLOCK said:


> ... then the mites drop for like a week after the treatment . I think when you put OA in your hives it will kill for around a week that's what I'm seeing


That's a typical observation. Exposed mites will continue to drop at a high rate for about a week after treatment. Therefore the recommendation to treat 3 times, one week apart. This covers one brood cycle and at the end of the 3 weeks either kills or weakens all exposed mites in the hive. It doesn't get them all but puts a huge dent in the mite population when there is brood in the hive.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I'm just glad I got off this roller coaster. I haven't treated for mites since I went treatment free in 2005. My bees do just fine on their own. That is nine seasons with no treatment. Feral colonies in this area have actually recovered. I catch swarms every year that are surely descended from bees that left in swarms from my colonies years ago. I deliberately induced swarming one year just to get some feral colonies established.

In the last 2 years, I've helped 2 more beekeepers get established treatment free. I've been giving away colonies just to get beekeepers started. I have 2 requests to get people started for next year.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

No one I know here has been able to keep a hive alive without addressing the varroa problem. Many have tried but by the end of the 2nd. summer the hives are lost. Some earlier than that. Granted, I don't know every beekeeper in my neck of the woods but I know a good number of them and addressing the varroa issue is a common topic of conversation.
Ferals suffer the same fate.
I read about the successes, here and elsewhere, but I don't personally know anyone who has had any success.
From where I sit you deal with them or lose the hives.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I dealt with them. The bees that can't take care of themselves are DEAD. The bees that sit here at my house and at two outyards are alive. With time, this entire area is getting saturated with mite tolerant genetics. I don't treat for varroa, I don't treat for tracheal mites. If my bees can't take the pests, they die. It is brutal, it is harsh, but it works. My winter losses are similar to what I used to get 30 years ago before the tracheal mites hit. I average losing about 1 colony per winter and that is usually because of queen failure.

Last year I lost 2 colonies. Both were swarms from commercial bees. A beekeeper brought bees in for pollination and placed them close enough that I caught 2 of his swarms. They went down with varroa about February of last year. I replaced them with splits from my mite tolerant bees this past spring.

The only problem I have at this point is not having a broad enough genetic base for the long term. I brought in some new mite tolerant stock this year which should help.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Fusion_power said:


> A beekeeper brought bees in for pollination and placed them close enough that I caught 2 of his swarms. They went down with varroa about February of last year.


Multiply that by 100 and that's what I have to deal with every year. In this area there are hundreds of packages being shipped in every spring. The bees are good honey producers, but they also produce a lot of mites. A lot of these end up swarming and they make up a large amount of our local "feral" bees. 

It would be nice to have the area saturated with mite tolerant feral bees, but that's not going to happen here any time soon. There are too many beekeepers on the package treadmill. Even if we have mite tolerant queens the bees end up robbing out other crashing hives and are overrun with the mites they carry back. 

I'm glad that you are in a position to be treatment free, I wish I could do the same. If local beekeepers here tried your tough love approach most of their colonies would end up like your swarms, and they would soon be out of business. 

The point I'm trying to make is that not every region is conducive to saturating the area with good genetics and allowing someone to go treatment free. Maybe someday that will change, if we could get buy in from a lot of local beekeepers committed to the challenge. Until then, we find the best way to keep our bees alive.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike, I don't know how to solve your problem because I am not a breeding expert.
It seems to me you are looking for bees that don't rob and prefer foraging. Is it possible? I don't know. But if you let nature take its course which means let the bees die and propagate the ones that live you are breeding bees that either do not rob or have found a way to survive the mites. You don't care which one happens.

The problem with this idea is you can't be big. You have to be small until you can get a few hives to survive. Otherwise you will end up broke.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> bees that don't rob and prefer foraging


Brother Adam commented that bees with a high propensity to collect nectar also have a high propensity to rob. The only qualification I would make is that bees will collect nectar by preference so long as it is freely available. Robbing starts when they don't have normal field sources for nectar.


----------



## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

oldforte said:


> Yes...I clean mine also...the debris accumulates during the time they are under the SBB. During a 3 day stay there would be all kinds of "trash" along with the mites. This happens all the time with every count. Just wondering why your boards show almost nothing but mites. Anyone else see the same?


Has anyone else pulled sticky boards out after 3 days and has had almost zero "trash" on them as the pics that Glock has shown above? How did that happen?


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Mine usually look more like the last picture in the series, with wax and debris mixed in. And the mites and trash are usually laid out in rows where they have fallen between the frames onto the board.


----------



## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

find the pics a little puzzling? how did Glock remove the debris without removing the mites?


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

Not really sure what path to take. Took my feeder off today and studies some of my bees. They look so nice and healthy, I really don't want to dribble (I hate that word) them with wood bleach. I will have weak bees from varroa or weak bees from OA what is the difference? I don't put chemicals on my garden, I didn't really get into beekeeping to be the chemical interventionist in a battle between two insects. I am struck by how often people treat, fall, spring, late summer, wow. I thought I only had to do it once a year. Not much hope of developing a resistant strain in the city. We are just recently getting well mated queens and we have hundreds of new package hives popping up every spring. I have one foot on the chemical bandwagon and I already want off.


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

allen dick did his own study on using oav, the information can be found here.

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/files/drop.htm

sorry didn't really read it, just remember that he did it from posts on another site.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Margot1d said:


> I guess I was hoping someone would say they are just house keeping, not to worry. I hate putting poison on my hives. I guess I need to accept this as part of beekeeping.


I'm a bit of a pragmatist, I guess. I worm my dogs when they need it. I worm my horses. Everybody thrives. I've seen both dogs and horses die from lack of worming. To me mites on bees are like worms in dogs and horses and I'm not willing to stand back and watch them die. Mites feed on bees and they vector viruses. I use resistant genetics and the least invasive treatment methods I can find. I sugar shake monthly and dust (3 x a week for 2 weeks) any time I find mites. Once a year (when there is no brood) I do a dribble.

The reality for me is that worms have been killing dogs and horses for hundreds or more years and in all that time the dogs and horses haven't managed to develop resistance to them, so I am skeptical that bees are gonna do any better. And since I am the one that dumped these bees in my boxes, I figure that makes it my responsibility to do whatever it takes to care for them. The minute I stop feeling this way, I will stop keeping bees.

JMO

Rusty

edited to add: Lots feel we should just let them die and this will somehow make all bees stronger. I don't buy it. When hives die from mites, they don't do it quickly. It takes enough time that all the pests jump ship and infest new hives, spreading their mess around. Plus the drones keep right on flying and mating and passing along their inferior genetics. I would rather pinch that queen, kill her drone brood, treat the workers, and requeen with more-resistant genetics. But just doing nothing isn't me! I've always gotta fight back.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rusty, I don't know anything about horses but I have been around dogs for quite a long time. Never have we wormed them and they have lived 15,16, 18 years which is way beyond the normal lifespan of a dog. I will bet there is a ton of chemicals in the food you are giving those dogs. (predominantly pesticides)

We don't worm our chickens either.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Ace, I think you may have missed the point. Apparently he is in a rural setting in a southern region that has a problem with worms. If your dogs *did* have worms, would you just let them die to weed out the weak ones or would you treat them so they have a better chance to live a long life?


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

LOLOL. Mine are working dogs and we pull fecals on them every spring and fall. The fall check is always positive so we worm. (And they live where I live and eat what I eat, and I am organic.) My horses get hauled to shows where they get exposed to worms. Again, we pull fecals. They are positive so we worm. It's just normal animal husbandry to me. I don't just sit on my hands and expect the dogs and horses to magically cure themselves.

Likewise I do sugar shakes every month. If I find mites, I dust. I don't expect my bees to magically cure themselves either. I do, however, re-queen any hive that has mites consistently. I use resistant stock to re-queen with. But I also remove all the drone brood from that hive and freeze it. I reason that if the queen had inferior genetics, then her drones do too, so I don't want them in my drone pool. I want resistant queens and resistant drones. I've a very small yard but I am still trying to do the very best I can to do right for all my critters. I am isolated enough that I don't see other bees at all, so my practices may actually have some effect. I expect that will change, tho, as more people decide to keep bees.

Rusty


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If you followed Ace's views on dog husbandry, you would leave an exterior door to your [New York state] house *open all winter*  so the dogs could do their business outside without bothering the humans!

From an earlier thread on _hive ventilation_, Ace brought this up regarding the doors in his home and his dogs:


Acebird said:


> We leave all doors open to the stairway even the outside door so the little dogs can do their do-do.



:gh:


(click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the original post/thread)


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Comparing worms which are internal to mites which are external is a classic example of comparing apples and oranges. If I took that viewpoint, I would still be treating for mites. Genetic resistance to both tracheal and varroa mites is present in bees at very low levels. If you do some simple steps to concentrate that resistance, you will have bees that DO NOT NEED TO BE TREATED.

The very best thing that could happen right now is for every beekeeper reading this to DEMAND mite tolerant queens and to get off the treatment bandwagon. I know this won't happen overnight. I know it would be tough for commercial beekeepers. I know that package beekeeping spreads mites. I've been there. Think how much time and energy each of you could save if you did not have to treat for mites!


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Fusion_power said:


> Comparing worms which are internal to mites which are external is a classic example of comparing apples and oranges.


In a way, yes. But the comparison is the same in regard to "how" we choose to deal with pests that are destroying our livestock, or pets. 

We all dream of the day when everyone has mite tolerant bees and there is no longer a need for treatment of any kind. In the meantime, what are we to do? 

Picture this. 50 new beekeepers pop up in your area and they all are on the "package treadmill", buying new packages every spring that are beginning to saturate your area with mite intolerant bees. All of your colonies are treatment free and headed by mite tolerant queens, but they begin to crash due to the massive influx of non-tolerant bee genetics in your area. Two or three years in a row you end up with 5 or less of 25 colonies alive in the spring. You speak with many of the beekeepers in the area but they are skeptical and not at all interested in what you have to say about treatment free beekeeping, and nothing is going to change. 

What would you do?


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

> The very best thing that could happen right now is for every beekeeper reading this to DEMAND mite tolerant queens and to get off the treatment bandwagon.


LOL. They don't have to DEMAND anything. They just have to buy resistant queens. There are plenty of folks out there breeding them! But an amazing number of beeks don't seem to have a clue about survivor genetics. They know even less about VSH genetics. And they have no idea how to go about hanging onto those genes if they do happen to get them. Nor do they understand that "resistant" does not mean "immune". They expect a silver bullet and when they don't get it, they blame the genetics and not the way they handled those genetics. 

And since THAT is the world we live in, I am not expecting things to get magically better just because I wish they would. So I treat--I use a mechanical treatment (dusting) as my primary and a naturally-occurring acid (OA) as my backup--with the goal of causing minimal impact on this earth we all share. 

JMO

Rusty


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

> Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
> Comparing worms which are internal to mites which are external is a classic example of comparing apples and oranges.





Mike Gillmore said:


> In a way, yes. But the comparison is the same in regard to "how" we choose to deal with pests that are destroying our livestock, or pets.


BINGO! 

Rusty


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> (And they live where I live and eat what I eat, and I am organic.)


Do you eat poop, mice, chipmunks, squirrels or any other vermin? I suspect your dogs are eating something you are not eating or else you would have to be wormed.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Do you eat poop, mice, chipmunks, squirrels or any other vermin?


My dog just loves deer poop.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> I suspect your dogs are eating something you are not eating or else you would have to be wormed.


Not to throw too much into this, but maybe he DOES need to be wormed. 

Come to think of it, I can remember having worms when I was a kid. My mother had to get something at the drugstore to kill them. I remember taking a pill and not being able to eat for several hours.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

> Do you eat poop, mice, chipmunks, squirrels or any other vermin? I suspect your dogs are eating something you are not eating or else you would have to be wormed.


Ace, I don't doubt for a moment that they are. They have the run of the place (except for the barn and the pastures), which leaves a LOT of territory. But my point was that I do everything I can do to keep everyone in my care in good health. I feel that is a personal responsibility and I include my bees in that responsibility. I cannot kick back and let stuff die just because of a theory. I try to be as earth-friendly as I know how to be, but I still take care of my critters. It's a balancing act for sure, but worth the extra effort.

I do still feel--quite strongly in fact--that in the case of the bees, just letting them die from mites is overall more harmful than interfering. I think it spreads mite infestations instead of stopping them. I think that when we do pinch unsatisfactory queens, we need to do the same with their drone brood or we unintentionally continue to spread their inferior genes for a lot longer than we realize. We need to control the mites, not ignore them.

As always, JMO

Rusty


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> we need to do the same with their drone brood or we unintentionally continue to spread their inferior genes for a lot longer than we realize.


Rusty, how could you possibly know which drones would be beneficial to the gene pool or not? Nature has a way of doing that already if you just let it bee.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Fusion_power - could you please provide a detailed description of how you went treatment free? Something with enough detail so that a new beek like myself can follow your procedure? Thanks!


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Rusty, how could you possibly know which drones would be beneficial to the gene pool or not? Nature has a way of doing that already if you just let it bee.


Logically, since the drone is just an extension of his queen and carries only her genetic material, if SHE is inferior, then so is he. If she has no resistance to mites, how can he have any? So if he continues to breed, he continues to spread her genetics, which I have already decided are not good enough to earn her a place in my apiary. Why would I want more of her genetics being spread to my new hives when I don't want her?!? I'm not just randomly dumping bees in a box here and watching passively to see what happens. My goal is to improve my stock through controlled breeding. While I like the idea of treatment-free beekeeping, I don't think it is just magically going to happen--I have to work towards it genetically. 

Yes, the bees could probably do it on their own eventually. My problem is that I don't happen to have a thousand years left to wait for it come to pass.



Rusty


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> I'm not just randomly dumping bees in a box here and watching passively to see what happens.







> Practicing _non-intervention_ beekeeping




*What we've got here is failure to communicate*


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> I do still feel--quite strongly in fact--that in the case of the bees, just letting them die from mites is overall more harmful than interfering. We need to control the mites, not ignore them.
> 
> As always, JMO
> 
> Rusty


I agree RUSTY VARROA killed all my year old hives last year and I watched them die in a row one after another 5 hives in the bee yard all mite bombs all dead buy JAN. then I had made 19 total hives besides the 5 year old hives and half of those died i'm not saying it was all VARROA but I am sure most was PMS and virus from VARROA .
I wanted to be treatment free well I won't be trying that again any time soon . I feel help the bee with the mites with treatment and know where your VARROA levels are at on every hive and treat as needed and that gives the bees time to get strong and maybe one day they will get strong enough to deal with the destructor and I can monitor each hive and see who is dealing with the mites better .
One thing I have learned about Beekeeping is there is a lot of beekeepers telling you how things are done and there is a lot of great info coming from many different beekeepers and you should just try different thing and see what works for you . I tried fogging with FGMO with brood breaks and drone frames and that did not work so now I know for sure it don't work and matter what any one tells me I know for sure . I now am going with OAV and things look good so far I didn't lose any hives this year I will see come spring how I did but better then last year so far. VARROA destructor is one of the first things to try and master in beekeeping and things will be a lot more pleasurable. GOOD LUCK


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Glock, this is my first year with VSH genetics in my hives. So far the monthly sugar shakes have turned up very few mites. Some hives had none at all. When I froze drone cells for the hygienic tests, I found only 1 mite in 4 samples. The one hive that did have mites I did the dusting -- 3 x a week for 2 weeks -- and tested again, with no mites found. This year I am actually questioning whether I need to do my usual OA dribble. I may dribble half and keep the other half as controls just to see what happens. 

Now, of course, the new goal is keeping VSH in the hives through subsequent breedings. I have Cordovans and I'm trying to link the VSH to the color, so that if I lose the color I know I've lost the VSH genetics. Don't know if that is even possible--but I'm experimenting with it anyhow!

But I totally agree that--bottom line--if we don't control the mites, they will continue to destroy our hives.

Rusty


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Glock, this is my first year with VSH genetics in my hives. So far the monthly sugar shakes have turned up very few mites. Some hives had none at all. When I froze drone cells for the hygienic tests, I found only 1 mite in 4 samples. The one hive that did have mites I did the dusting -- 3 x a week for 2 weeks -- and tested again, with no mites found. This year I am actually questioning whether I need to do my usual OA dribble. I may dribble half and keep the other half as controls just to see what happens.
> 
> Now, of course, the new goal is keeping VSH in the hives through subsequent breedings. I have Cordovans and I'm trying to link the VSH to the color, so that if I lose the color I know I've lost the VSH genetics. Don't know if that is even possible--but I'm experimenting with it anyhow!
> 
> ...


I have to learn more about genetics and how it works in the bee yards this is my fourth winter coming and I want to learn how to work with my genetics and bring in what I need to try and get VSH in my apiary but like I said this is my 4th year and I have 25 hives and know how to make queens and some of my genetics came for two guys that was working with VSH queens and I am the only beekeeper for miles for sure so maybe one day when I know more about how genetics works I will start adding different genetics to achieve the perfect bee . I want to see how my bees do the next couple years only time will tell .


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

At risk of belaboring the worming analogy even further, isn't the varroa/honey bee relationship more like trying to kill the bad worm that lives off of the good worm in your dog's gut? At the same time keeping the honey that the worm produces pure enough for the consumption of use two legged creatures? I do get what you are saying Rusty. My pendulum has swung towards treating next weekend. Based on your comments you feel that OA a benefit, not that it would further weaken already compromised bees? I agree that we should do what is in our power to benefit your bees. I just question the effectiveness my interventions.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

What I think is that any mites present mean the presence of viruses. This is why I have started treating the minute I see any mites at all. This, in turn, is why I do sugar shakes every month. If that shake turns up mites, I dust. Neither the shake nor the dusting is hard on the bees. In years past, I also ended the year with a dribble. BUT I have always been in either Florida or Alabama--much different climate than New York! Plus I've never used MAQS, so I don't know how hard they are on bees or how good a job they do, so I am not willing to say it would be safe to add the stress of an OA dribble on top of everything else. In fact, if they were my bees, I'd probably hang tight and do nothing more until spring. Once I saw who survived, I'd start a whole new management regimen based on my location and stick to it religiously. Y'see, that's the one big problem with online advice--everybody is all over the country but all beekeeping is REGIONAL. We all mean well but sometimes our experiences are widely different because of where we are.

Rusty

P.S. one thing you should be aware of is that there is some evidence that OA dribble does shorten the winter lifespan, which is why it is only done once. Since my winters are short, that isn't a big worry for me, but someone with long winters should certainly take that into consideration.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Just a thought: If you are really worried about mite load--do a sugar shake. If you DO have mites, do the sugar dusting on your first warm day. It is a benign mechanical treatment, not an internal one, so you don't have to worry about chemical effects. And if the weather will allow it, do the 3 x a week for 2 weeks rotation. That will knock the stuffings out of any mites on the bees without shortening anybody's lifespan.

HTH

Rusty


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Shinbone, what I did was simple. I found one single queen that carried a high level of mite tolerance. She was in a swarm I caught back around 2004. I got 10 queens from Purvis in 2006 and used them as drone producers to mate queens raised from my queen. In one year, I went entirely to mite tolerant genetics and stopped treating. I lost a few colonies in the first few years, but never more than 30%. In 2008, I deliberately crowded my bees and let them swarm. The result was several feral colonies spread in the area as a buffer between my colonies and any other beekeepers.

If you want to seriously go treatment free, contact carpenter apiaries. He has been treatment free about as long as I have. Re-queen all of your colonies early next year and by fall you will be off the bandwagon. I should qualify this by saying that if you are surrounded by susceptible bees, you will have to keep an eye out because your bees can still be overwhelmed if a bunch of colonies nearby collapse with mites. Your area near Denver has much longer winters so you may have to play with the genetics for a few years to get them to overwinter, but it can be done if you are persistent.

http://www.carpentersapiaries.com/


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Fusion_power - Thanks for the comments on your procedure to go treatment free. Sounds reasonable and quite doable. 

I am not as far along in getting established as I had hoped at this point due to my first two years being drought years. Hopefully, in 2014 or 2015 I will get fully established, and can then start raising my own queens. Once I get competent at queen raising, I will then select for varroa resistance with the goal of eventually becoming treatment free.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Logically, since the drone is just an extension of his queen and carries only her genetic material, if SHE is inferior, then so is he.


Logically this is incorrect. That is like saying if a female dog is brown you will only get brown dogs from her. Remember the dog only mates with one father at a time. Not so with the bee. What you are thinking is a pure breed queen mating with a pure breed drone.

An inferior queen is one that doesn't produce enough acceptable bees but she does produce some. You can't assume she produces none. If left on their own over time colonies with inferior genes will die. When you treat you keep boosting the inferior genes into the population. If you think otherwise you are kidding yourself.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Logically, since the drone is just an extension of his queen and carries only her genetic material, if SHE is inferior, then so is he.



Acebird said:


> Logically this is incorrect. That is like saying if a female dog is brown you will only get brown dogs from her. Remember the dog only mates with one father at a time. Not so with the bee. What you are thinking is a pure breed queen mating with a pure breed drone.


Ace, you are wrong again. inch: The drone in question is an OFFSPRING of the queen in question. Since no semen was used to fertilize the egg the drone was raised from, that drone ONLY has the queen's genes.

:gh:

_Logically _.... dogs .....? try _bees_!


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

The drone doesn't have a "father", but has a grandfather on his mother's side.....


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

And if you keep going back there will be more fathers involved.
Rader, I was trying to relate to something he knows.


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> And if you keep going back there will be more fathers involved.
> Rader, I was trying to relate to something he knows.


Well.... Grandfather drone didn't have a daddy either. 

So the drone has a "grandfather" and a "great-great grandfather". 

No father.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Rader, I was trying to relate to something he knows.

*All *dogs have fathers. *No *drone bees have fathers. 

How could anyone think that using dog lineage to explain bee lineage would be useful? :scratch:


Logically ... ... 


:gh:


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Rusty, how could you possibly know which drones would be beneficial to the gene pool or not? Nature has a way of doing that already if you just let it bee.


Beekeepers will not tolerate the losses required for natural methods Think of it as only the exceptional survive. and exceptional in every way.including those not desirable for our purposes. So you must sustain unacceptable losses to achieve undesirable results. Neither of which are a goal of beekeeping.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > Rader, I was trying to relate to something he knows.
> 
> *All *dogs have fathers. *No *drone bees have fathers.
> 
> ...


Actually they do to some degree. the queen contributes 100% of the genes to an infertile egg. but half of those are drone genes form her father. Mathematically anyway. in fact the genes she contributes to any given egg could be 100% of the genes she carries from her father. Technically this is grandfather to her offspring. This is just one example of how the diploid nature of drones and the unique path of genetics in bees is complex. You can in fact end up with what appears to be a minor player, the non contributing male. Become the dominant source of genetics. At the point of drone production the contribution of male to female is once again 50-50. All through the genetics carried by any queen that is half her mother and half her father. 

Given any queen producing a virgin queen can select form any of as much as 20 to 50 drones to fertilize that particular egg. Natural selection would be extreme. only the fittest of the fittest would survive. If the queen mated with 50 drones. there is only a 2% chance for any individual drone to have it's genetics passed on. And even then only half of them. So lets say only one out of those 50 is a desirable drone. there is a 2% chance of retaining half of those genes. To maintain them woudl require you produce 100 queens at least. identify the two with the desirable traits (if they exist) and mate their offspring to each other.

Now I do not care how much faith anyone has in random chance. that is in fact what you would have to do to "Breed" bees. I don't care how much you influence the fornication among your bees. it is not breeding.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Note that DY's comments above did not use the word "dog", or _any _word related to canines.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

No, dogs are not a parallel for bee breeding.

In many ways, you can look at bee breeding as breeding one queen to another. Yes, I said that right. It is like breeding one queen to another. The "drone" is just a flying gamete with a bunch of identical sperm all inherited from the queen with no father involved.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

OK have it yourway. Insects by far are the fastest to adapt to what is changing because they multiply at such a rate. The dog breeding is just a over simplification of the breeding of insect. I think the message got across.

Bottom line is, you treat to eliminate a bug you propagate a bug that is stronger than the one you treated. If you deny that than maybe it is time for a basic biology class.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Fusion_Power - I've never heard it put like that, but you are absolutely correct.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Acebird said:


> An inferior queen is one that doesn't produce enough acceptable bees but she does produce some. You can't assume she produces none. If left on their own over time colonies with inferior genes will die. When you treat you keep boosting the inferior genes into the population...


But doing it your way takes hundreds if not thousands of years and I don't have that much time left!  Plus my treatments are mechanical ones--powdered sugar dusting. Once a year I do an OA dribble IF NEEDED (and this year it isn't needed). So how am I causing these mites to become stronger?!? 

BTW in MY apiary, an inferior queen is one that *I* decide is inferior because she doesn't meet MY criteria for a good queen. I prefer queens who are Cordovan and exhibit VSH traits, are prolific but still easy to manage, and productive. Other beeks probably have different definitions for their apiaries, but this is what I am breeding for. And I can hardly wait around for the bees to decide to become my version of "good", now can I? I have to select for the traits I value; that is the only way I'm gonna get them in my boxes. To do that I squish the queens that don't measure up plus I freeze their drone brood. And I breed from the ones that are exceptionally strong in the traits I am selecting for and flood the area with their drones. That's called selective breeding, I believe. Whatever. It's what I am doing with my bees. If I do it long enough and carefully enough I may even reach the point where I don't need to sugar dust anymore, tho I'm not holding my breath on that one. I consider myself a bee BREEDER and not just a bee HAVER. There is nothing non-interventional about my involvement with my bees.

(And, yes, I totally agree with FusionPower, we ARE breeding one queen's genetics to another queen's genetics. The drones are just the instrument.)



Rusty


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> So how am I causing these mites to become stronger?!?


Either way, you by yourself means nothing to the whole picture but if everyone does it... Just like what I do as an individual means nothing to the whole picture. I don't think an organism that breeds to its own genetics could ever survive as a species for very long.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> OK have it yourway. Insects by far are the fastest to adapt to what is changing because they multiply at such a rate.


"Insects" is a rather _grand _term to use here.  Consider this comment by _JWChestnut _from another current thread:


JWChesnut said:


> The generation time of mites is 5 days between single females and males with thousands of selections in each generation in every hive.
> 
> The generation time of bees is 6 months to 3 years with a "randomization" scheme due to multiple fathers yielding a F1 that may bear little relation to the "selected" character of the hive.


At the risk of stepping in some "_dog poop_" here,  the generation time for _bees _JWC references above is on par with dogs and rabbits. Mice may have 5 to 10 generations per year, according to Wikipedia.

:gh:

(click the blue arrows in the quote box to see the respective original post/thread)


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Either way, you by yourself means nothing to the whole picture but if everyone does it... Just like what I do as an individual means nothing to the whole picture. I don't think an organism that breeds to its own genetics could ever survive as a species for very long.


But I cannot control what everyone else does (nor would I want to!) I can only control what *I* do and what choices *I* make. So I try to do the right things according to my knowledge and understanding while remaining as earth-friendly as I know how to be.

JMO

Rusty


----------



## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

Glock, what has been your mite counts after 3 OAV treatments? I have treated twice and counts have not changed a lot.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

oldforte said:


> Glock, what has been your mite counts after 3 OAV treatments? I have treated twice and counts have not changed a lot.


I only am only going buy sticky board counts and they are not dropping many but I have not treated in over a week and you can't really go my sticky board but it's getting late in the year to be digging in the hives but I am going to treat one more time soon and I will see how the drop is this time.
I know I have killed a pile of VARROA since AUG. and I have not lost a hive yet. I have one hive that bearded all spring and summer and once I treated with OAV there where just 1000s of mites dropping and they all after a day or so after treatment went back in the hive and that hive has been treated 4 times and still have a few mites dropping but its a happy hive now.


----------



## Nige.Coll (Aug 18, 2013)

OA vaporization has problems when the bees are clustered for winter. it cannot penetrate the cluster.
when the bees are clustered you can use the OA drizzle method but you MUST get the concentration right or you will kill your bees.
i don't like the OA drizzle method myself as it can damage the bees if the mix is even slightly wrong. imagine having an acid bath yourself BUT it can save your colony.
as far as the OA vaporization you need to try and time it so you catch the bees in their brood cycles as it doesn't kill varroa in the sealed cells.
the main cycle being 21 and 24 days. varroa will not breed in queen cells.
the varroa will quite happily sit on the bees all through winter spreading nasty viruses and ultimately killing the bees.

unfortunately if you have a high varroa count at this point in the year your options are a little limited.
OA vaporization and or the drizzle method later in the year are i think all you can do due to temperature requirements of the thymol and formic based treatments and the fact that they will stop the queen laying , if she is laying the eggs for the winter bees that would be very bad also.

you could do nothing and hope for the best but as this wasn't posted in the treatment free part i guess that isn't what you want to do.


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

I found it took 5 weekly treatments to get my drop count down. I read that as many as 2/3 of the mites in a hive are in the brood at a given time so OAV is more effective as brood declines and more frequent treatments result in fewer adults laying in brood. I think this time of year, as brood declines, OAV will become more and more effective, hit them in the middle of the warmest part of the day while they aren't clustered. That varies depending on where you live, I have fly days thru nov and have fly days off an on in Dec and Jan. I would take advantage of any warm days to treat now as I think this is the time where you can win the battle before going into winter.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

I did another treatment on the hives I posted the sticky board pics from now I know most if not all my hives are broodless right now so I will see how the drops are over the next couple of day. I will post the results over the next few days.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> So how am I causing these mites to become stronger?!?
> 
> (And, yes, I totally agree with FusionPower, we ARE breeding one queen's genetics to another queen's genetics. The drones are just the instrument.)
> 
> ...


I see a couple of ways that the mites may get stronger due to treatments. The first is the most common argument against any treatment. There are those individual mites that will survive even though they have been exposed. The thinking is that treating is an unintentional selection process that results in mites that are resistant to treatment. This ides is based upon the fact that bacterial have developed resistance to antibiotics due to improper dosages during treatment. this is why you are instructed to take all of a prescription of antibiotics. In order for this to be true the mite has to have the same complex ability to adapt which is actually more like it is prone to rapid changes which is not necessarily true. It also assumes that treatments like prescriptions are commonly under dosed. It has been demonstrated that Viruses and bacteria in the colonies do in fact develop resistance to antibiotics just as they do in humans. but no one has ever demonstrated that an insect does the same to pesticides. No insecticide is 100% effective either. but what got missed the first time is just as vulnerable at the next application. It is like saying that a soldier that did not get shot in a battle even though he was shot at has now developed some advantage to being killed by a bullet.
Another way you may strengthen the mite is that any predator will flourish when its population has been reduced and it has abundant prey. This is often explained in the relationship between the rabbit and a coyote. Rabbits are dependent on foliage. coyotes are dependent on rabbits. Rabbits will increase as foliage increases. resulting in better survival among coyotes because they have more prey to hunt and will be more successful in making a kill. More successful ,kills reduces the rabbit population leaving the coyote population with to little prey and their population will then fall. It is thought by some that this process of boone and bust will result in only a stronger more adapted population will survival. Survival of the fittest. Again I do not agree. I see it as a situation of survival of the fortunate. If in fact it where a situation of survival of the fittest. where is the rabbit to fast to be caught or the super predator that can hunt down the very last of its prey species? In truth the situation results in a kill off of random individuals and serves to maintain a status quo. Complete with the weakest of individuals.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

> I see a couple of ways that the mites may get stronger due to treatments.....


Ah, but Daniel *my* primary "treatment" is a mechanical one: Powdered sugar makes the mites fall off. It doesn't kill them. The oil at the bottom of the hive is what actually kills them via a drowning. And drowning the ones that fall off does not somehow make mites less susceptible to drowning in the future, so I still don't see how I am causing these mites to become stronger!

JMO

Rusty


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Rusty, I agree with the sugar dusting. The problem I see with it is that it is not effective enough. It will cause increased grooming which helps in the removal of more mites than woudl be removed otherwise, But does it remove enough mites? I do not think you could select for mites resistant to grooming though.


----------



## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

It also seems the bunnies would benefit with fewer wolves.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

But ... but ... but ... what about sugar dusting selecting for mites with _stronger foot muscles! _


:digging:


or maybe mites hold on with their _hands_. I really don't know! :lpf:


----------



## Nige.Coll (Aug 18, 2013)

I haven't kept bees for very long but the way i look at the varroa problem is that it needs to be managed or the majority of bees will die out.
I am not going down the route of ramming chemicals into my hives just because everyone else does. But if i need to deal with a problem to save my bees then i will try and use methods that are proven less harmful to them.
The varroa is a parasite and a parasite that kills it's host isn't going to do very well long term.
The main problem is that viruses that are normally tolerated by bees when ingested have been given a new route into the bees bodies and therefor cannot be fought off like they used to .
At a recent lecture the speaker used hepatitis c as an example of the same thing in humans . It became a real problem when intravenous drug use took off in the 60's.
There is a lot of research being undertaken atm into why and how the viruses mutate while inside the varroa and then when passed to bees result in such devastation. DWV was used as an example it is very similar to the polio virus but when it gets inside varroa it can mutate into a multitude of different viruses.

I agree with the bee breeding ideas but i don't think the results will happen quick enough to make a real impact .

As far as the let them die approach i cannot support that. I believe you have a duty of care to any animal/insect you own or look after.

Someone compared varroa to worms . I would compare them to flees but bloody big ones. If your dog had a flee the size of a softball on it's neck it would be alarming and if you scale the size up it's maybe bigger than a softball. you would be straight down to the vets.

I don't think varroa will ever be exterminated parasites adapt just as well as any host does and normally faster.
I do think that the numbers can be kept at levels that won't kill the colonies of bees they inhabit.
How you choose to do this is entirely up to YOU they are your bees .
All we can do is make our own choices regarding our bees and hopefully win the battle.

I am yet to find two beekeepers that could agree on the colour of a carpet, but that said every beekeeper I have met is a source of some good information , the fact that other may not agree is irrelevant.


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Sexual reproduction in *all* eukaryotic organisms -- fungi to humans -- is the product of Meiosis. 

Meiosis is a two phase process that creates four gametes from a single stem cell. ALL four of these gametes are different from each other, and *none* of them share identical genetic material by design. 

Meiosis first divides the mother cell into two intermediate diploid cells after a process called "crossing over". In the initial phase Meiosis a strand of DNA reproduces to form a doubled chromatid (this same phase happens in normal cell division to produce identical clones). The doubled chromatids from both diploid chromosones then combine to form a structure called a "Holliday Junction". The junction exchanges alleles among the four arms of the knotted structure. Any one allele (one half of the parent gene) can end up on one and only one arm of the junction.




At the end of the first phase of the Meiosis, the junction breaks apart into two diploid daughter cells. These cells contain a full recombination of the mothers genes, but none of the chromosones are identical to the mother.

The second phase of Meiosis is the creation of two haploid gametes from each of the two Daughter cells. The haploid cells contain a single Chromosone, so only one copy of the two alleles in the daughter cell, and neither of the daughter cells two strands are identical to the queen. The pair of gametes from a daughter cell are mutually exclusive-- the alleles must be different since they are only one single strand of a pair. Furthermore since the two daughters are mutually exclusive pairs, the alleles in the haploid gametes derived from different daughter cells are unique and exclusively different.

I work in evolutionary biology. The half-truths promoted by various impossibly mis-informed arm-chair experts frustrate me no end on this forum. The worst of this crowd are the hyper-partisans of the "Bond" Treatment Free regime, who have mixed a completely amateur knowledge of genetics with a semi-religious faith

I will say this once again: the evolutionary 'schema' adopted by honeybees is designed to stabilize the genome while preserving enormous diversity within the superorganism. They have added the nearly unprecedented step of having multiple mixed fathers in each lineage, and an obligate out-crossing mating system. Remember drones of the same "sex flag" as the queen (1/2 of her own drone offspring) produce infertile eggs, and inbred lines show this with shotbrood. This recombination of fathers further randomizes the daughter generation -- meaning the bees are exceptionally resistant to genetic drift but maintain enormous epi-genetic plasticity. This is adaptive for a generalist pollinator.

The "Bond" partisans logic is such: Less virulent mites must develop because the weak ones will allow queens to reproduce and drones to fly, and these weak mites will have better survival and colonization. This process of selection for "hypo-virulence" makes a logical sequence. It is offset by real work effects. Robbing of collapsed colonies spreads mites to other hives. Logically (by the same inductive chain) very aggressive mites should have better colonization (and have strong selective advantage) because they kill colonies better. I would snarkily add that "Bond" co-religionists by maintaining weak and declining colonies subject to robbing are actually spreading hyper-aggressive mites to the world. They are creating the opposite selection pressure that they are professing.

I actually think both logical chains are non-evidential fantasies. Both sequence likely occur and cancel each other out, but the primary selection against hypo-virulence is that it is NOT NEEDED. Mites travel from hive to hive on drones. Drones can enter any hive they desire, and do so. This means any lineage of mite can move to any hive at any time (and should explain why mites have specialized on drone brood). Rapid, horizontal transmission of infection reduces any sexual selection for virulence to irrelevancy.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Daniel Y said:


> I see a couple of ways that the mites may get stronger due to treatments.


OA has been used in other countries since the mid 90's. I haven't heard of any cases of mites becoming resistant to OA, just speculation that it "could" happen.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

What is the mechanism through which OA kills varroa?

If OA kills the mites by oxidizing tissue, which is what acids usually do, then there is little chance that varroa can adapt anytime soon to such an overall distruction of biological structure.

Put another way, if varroa can adapt to being coated with acid, then they can easily adapt to anything the bees could ever do to stop them.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

JWChesnut: bravo, bravo!
Unfortunately you can lead the horses to water, but you can't make em drink.

Many adopt the 'science' that suits their purpose and those who challenge that ..... well you see the result right here in the forums, regularly. 
I am one that appreciates your posts, thanks.


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> I see it as a situation of survival of the fortunate. If in fact it where a situation of survival of the fittest. where is the rabbit to fast to be caught or the super predator that can hunt down the very last of its prey species? In truth the situation results in a kill off of random individuals and serves to maintain a status quo. Complete with the weakest of individuals.


Evolution and selection do occur. Selection often promotes a local optimum. In the rabbit example, think of Snowshoe Hares which are optimized against arctic fox and lynx (the hare/lynx cycle correlated with sunspot maximums (and consequent snow cover), is actually the intellectual root of Daniel's thought experiment). A hare/coyote coevolution would be represented by Great Basin Blacktailed Jackrabbits.

Here's the rub: Arctic snowshoe hares are dependent on a particular climate regime (which is rapidly shifting), their optimum has created fragility in their long-term survival (the next interglacial, or human induced warming) will bring about their demise. In the Rocky Mountain West, numerous Jackrabbit races and full species exist -- and this is because the "cost" of creating a race of specialized escape artists generates a rabbit of a design that gets cold faster, needs more energy. These are fragile races - the conversion of the Great Basin to a continuous woodland (as was the case 4-5 million years ago) means Jackrabbits are a bad design for survival on a evolutionary time-scale, and indeed rabbits in the great basin have tended to speciate when isolated on mountain "islands". Even a Pygmy Rabbit
exists on the tops of Great Basin mountain chains.

Fragile highly selected species are the rule in the insect world -- beetles that live on only the north side of a single species of tree, or orchid bees that must harvest their mating pheromone from the nectar of a single species of orchid. If these orchid bees cannot find a blooming orchid they cannot mate. This month, I was contributing to the study of a parasitic insect that breeds only on the larvae of a parasitic wasps that parasitizes only a single species of gall-forming midge that only forms galls on a single species of rare Clematis which grows only in a single county in urbanizing southern California.

Honeybees have adopted an entirely different evolutionary inertia. They are generalists. They interbreed from the southern tip of Africa to the arctic circle. They gather sugar and protein from any source what-so-ever (popsicles dropped on sidewalks in NYC to sunflowers to oozing sap on grass stalks). They adapt to a multitude of colony homes and modify the environmental conditions by fanning, propolis and comb-building. Their genome has been pared and simplified, whole segments of immune response genes have been dropped, because they substitute social organization for genetic programming. The genetic hardwiring that lets Monarch butterflies migrate the length of a continent has been dropped in favor of a social communication, which lets individual bees discover "knowledge" and spread it to the entire super-organism. The diversity normally accumulated in genomes has been substituted with a mating system that produces half-sister workers (each with diverse genes) from 15-50 different fathers. This social super-organization means honey bees are best adapted when their genome is diverse and interchangeable. 

In the competitive race to secure pollination, some plants have adapted a hyper-specialization strategy (viz. the Orchid Bee example, or Night Blooming Cereus and its moth with 20 cm long proboscis). Some plants produce hyper-specialized nectars, palatable to single species or available for minutes each day. Honeybee pollinated flowers are simple, generic in design and simple in nectar composition, there is no advantage in the flower to undergo a co-evolutionary specialization, because the honeybee will not "chase" it. Honeybees lack the capacity to specialize quickly, their mating system mitigates against genetic specialization, no matter how "adaptive" an evolutionary shift seems in the near-time horrizon.


----------



## jfb58 (Sep 10, 2013)

Thank you for your informative posts, I have learned a lot. Since you study insects that parasitize other insects, do you have any thoughts about potential biological control of varroa?


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Drawing logically from your statements, the generalist honeybee induces stasis in the flowers they visit, i.e. the honeybee does not readily change, therefore the flower is prevented from changing.

Which is all very well and good, but does not change the current wisdom that treating for mites is a necessary activity.

I concur that failure to treat for mites if you have mite susceptible bees is counterproductive in the extreme.

No matter how you slice or dice this pie, the end result is always the same. The only way to get off the treatment bandwagon is to get on the genetic tolerance bandwagon.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

JWChesnut said:


> The half-truths promoted by various impossibly mis-informed arm-chair experts frustrate me no end on this forum. The worst of this crowd are the hyper-partisans of the "Bond" Treatment Free regime, who have mixed a completely amateur knowledge of genetics with a semi-religious faith


JWChestnut, thanks for your contributions. Mis-informed would-be experts with feverish self confidence show up in many fields. It is difficult to sort them out without a fair bit of knowledge in the field in question. If the newcomer has any inclination to embrace the simplistic solution to a complex problem, then the outcome is quite predictable.

Does the waving of the tree limbs really cause the wind to blow?


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

got to nominate JWChestnut's post to a separate"Back to School" thread with a sticky to follow !


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> I concur that failure to treat for mites if you have mite susceptible bees is counterproductive in the extreme.
> 
> No matter how you slice or dice this pie, the end result is always the same. The only way to get off the treatment bandwagon is to get on the genetic tolerance bandwagon.


I think I have bees with a fair level of mite resistance but my understanding is that the traits that produce it are recessive if not on both parental lines and continuously refreshed. I am reasonably confident I have no ferals in the area and dont want to expand to the point of having enough numbers to maintain mite resistant traits with my own breeding. It appears that on 8 hives I may be mite free but have no inclination to see what level of mites they might be able to tolerate.

I feel the term "treatment bandwagon" has emotional barbs that may not be entirely embedded in fact; I do know there are other areas where the same bees will collapse without ongoing and intensive mite treatment. I think there are more than a few examples of claims of tolerant bees that failed to perform when transported to other areas. Some genetic breakthrough would be wonderful, but I think the odds are a solution will be a multi pronged one and then only "liveable" at that.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

JWChestnut:
OH...MY...GOSH...

BEST...POST...EVER...

:applause:


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Well said Lauri.

And it looks like congratulations to Lauri are in order. First time I've seen the new title. You are still going to have time for the photos, right?


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thank you Saltybee. 

As far as photos go, I keep my camera in my back pocket at all times. You never know when a photo op will present itself. I took a lot of pics this summer I'll be posting about, including a few experiments in the works I'll report on as soon as they are complete. Before, during and after, which includes overwintering and spring build up.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

:applause:


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

JWChesnut said:


> Sexual reproduction in *all* eukaryotic organisms -- fungi to humans -- is the product of Meiosis.


Catch the buzz:


> Sex determiner gene of honey bee more complicated that previously assumed
> 
> Cologne biologist recognizes huge significance of finding for bee keeping
> 
> ...


Sometimes things don't go as planned.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

JWChesnut said:


> Remember drones of the same "sex flag" as the queen (1/2 of her own drone offspring) produce infertile eggs, and inbred lines show this with shotbrood.


already covered ace.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

So what about drones from laying workers? This seems like a complicating factor. I had a laying worker hive this summer, and they put a lot of drones out before I got it corrected. Of course, they were mostly tiny drones, I guess, so maybe they couldn't compete with full-size drones.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> OA has been used in other countries since the mid 90's. I haven't heard of any cases of mites becoming resistant to OA, just speculation that it "could" happen.


Note I also wrote in the same post.
Quote:
It has been demonstrated that Viruses and bacteria in the colonies do in fact develop resistance to antibiotics just as they do in humans. but no one has ever demonstrated that an insect does the same to pesticides.
End Quote:

I did notice that I had put Viruses in their as treated with Antibiotics. That is not true. viruses are not treated with antibiotics.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Catch the buzz:
> 
> 
> Sometimes things don't go as planned.


Ace, I do not think anything in the Catch the Buzz article is in conflict with what JW Chestnut posted. His post is addressing what happens to the queen and the drones chromosome after fertilization. I am assuming the same is true for the single chromosome present in an infertile egg with some variation.

What I am seeing in it is that the chromosomes in any organism go through a process that results in them becoming unique to that individual. As an example even identical twins are not identical.

I would also point out that such a uniqueness on the scale of genetic diversity is miniscule.

In the Buzz articel they are now claiming as many as 145 sex determining alleles. This would seem like a lot. and it is a lot when compared to the 2 found in most animals. Btu as far as genetic diversity. 145 variations is barely adequate. If it is adequate enough at all.

Think of in another way that realtes to choices or selection. Would it be adequate when choosing a movie to watch to only have 145 movies to select from? Would women be happy if the entire world only contained 145 pairs of shoes to pick from? Would men be happy if there where only 145 different looks in women?

What is a lot is relevant to how much choice you want or need. SO lets say there are only 145 different beers in the world. and each one is found in a different brewery. I will let you pick any beers you want. but you can only visit two breweries. At that point who cares if there 145 types of beer. you are not limited to only two. But If I told you you can have unlimited time to sample the brews before making your choice. How many of those breweries do you want within driving distance of your home?

The same is true for the sex genes or any other gene in bees. you want them all within mating distance of your apiary. Btu still they can only choose alimited number regarless of how many there are to chose form and when it comes right down to a fertilized egg there are only two. when it comes to a drone egg it is only one.

What JW is explaining is that even that one has the ability to then develop it's chromosome to be unique.

I woudl assume in the case of the drone where only one chromosome is present it must clone that chromosome twice. then ti capable of the holiday not process. That would be my guess from what I read and how it might possible work out in a single chromosome situation.

One other thought I had as I read that post is that could be why we see the, "You look like" effect in offspring. My children look like me and are easily recognizable as my children. But they are not exactly like me. they have a nose that resembles mine or eyes that are like mine. but none of them look like twins and none of them have exactly my features.I was thinking that this holiday know effect may be part of the reason that although all 4 of my children have features like mine. not any two of us have exactly the same feature.

Anyway just sharing some thought. in all I think it is important for anyone thinking about breeding and having an adequate understanding of genetics to also have a clear idea of what is considered a healthy gene pol. and even 145 genes is pretty poor. As a real life example. 135 unrelated pairs of Seramas (tiny chickens) where imported to the US. and that is the entire genetic pool available. It is considered meager and in desperate need of being increased.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I am thinking here Daniel. How does man in his infinite wisdom wipe out forests or jungles and puts animals species to near extinction, then brings these species back again? For the most part he, (man) recreates the habitat and puts the hand full of animals left in that habitat and they thrive.

I believe that each and every one of us has traces of genetic makeup from the cave man. It is too hard for me to explain how those features might reappear in the human race but I believe they can.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> It has been demonstrated that Viruses and bacteria in the colonies do in fact develop _resistance _to antibiotics just as they do in humans. but *no one has ever demonstrated that an insect does the same to pesticides.*


Hmmm, note that CheckMite+ (registered as a varroa mite control) is now considered ineffective against varroa by a number of knowledgeable people. Presumably, CheckMite's effectiveness has declined since it was first registered as a varroa control. Brushy Mountain, a vendor of CheckMite+, even includes the word "*resistant*" on its product page:


> This product is labeled for both Small HIve Beetles and Varroa Mites. It is sold under section 18 registrations and is not available in all states. Unfortunately *many varroa Mites are resistant to this product;* therefore, alternate with different medications. As with all miteacides always follow label instructions.
> 
> http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Check-Mite-Plus-10-Strips/productinfo/481/


When _most _beekeepers refer to varroa, varroa mites are generally thought of in a _group context_*. *I do acknowledge that it is _possible _to interpret DY's comment in the context of whether or not a specific _individual _mite develops resistance to CheckMite, but varroa mites in _group _context certainly seems to be more relevant.

.


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

Daniel Y said:


> Would women be happy if the entire world only contained 145 pairs of shoes to pick from? Would men be happy if there where only 145 different looks in women?


Ouch. :no:


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Would it be adequate when choosing a movie to watch to only have 145 movies to select from?


Imagine Thomas Edison's frustration. He went through all the effort to develop the "movies" (the Kinetoscope), only to discover that there was *nothing *to watch!  
Well, OK, he had to produce his own films as well! :lpf:


If the body of Daniel's post was intended to support his opening comment that Ace's _Catch the Buzz_ quote was not relevant, IMHO he chose an _odd _way to support that idea. 

:gh:

.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> drone where only one chromosome is present it must clone that chromosome twice


Bees have a modified form of meiosis. Look it up, it is worth reading.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> If the body of Daniel's post was intended to support his opening comment that Ace's _Catch the Buzz_ quote was not relevant, IMHO he chose an _odd _way to support that idea.
> 
> :gh:
> 
> .


Actually my post switched subjects.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Well I had treated those same hives from the pics on page 2 of this thread I treated again this past wed. and this is one of the drops and they all look about the same so I have to say I am happy with the OAV I well see how winter goes.

This was at 3 days after the treatment.


----------



## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

Glock, how many OA treatments does this make?


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

oldforte said:


> Glock, how many OA treatments does this make?


The total of 5 since AUG. I was fogging with FGMO till mid JULY and that let the mite loads built pretty high but now with 5 OAV treatments there low and all hives are doing fine.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Glock, Just for clarification. are you saying you have given your bees a full regiment of foggings. (3 times in three weeks) 5 times since August? A note also, some say to fog each week for 4 weeks. 

That seems like a lot of treating. But the title does say persistent.


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> Glock, Just for clarification. are you saying you have given your bees a full regiment of foggings. (3 times in three weeks) 5 times since August? A note also, some say to fog each week for 4 weeks.
> 
> That seems like a lot of treating. But the title does say persistent.


Hi Daniel, 
Glock doesn't fog anymore, he uses OAV, he meant he did 3 OAV treatments, one every 10 days. Then took a break, followed by another treatment and he took pictures of the mite boards after the break, following the 4th treatment. 

I treated 5 times, once every week, Took a two week break and treated and started counting again Saturday. My worst hive had about two dozen yesterday afternoon, the others all had less than 10, but Glock said he gets the largest drop about 3 days after a treatment. That will be Tuesday, so I'll update this thread Wednesday. My hives are spinning down the brood, still some caped brood but not a lot.
OAV is much more effective when there is no brood. I plan to treat two more weeks for good measure, then stop for the winter.

Now that I've started OAV, I don't plan to fog again. Fogging helped some, but not enough to stay ahead of the growing wave of mites as your hive is rapidly building. I don't know for sure that OAV will be enough. I'll know that when I go into next years dearth. I'll start OAV treatments early and shoot for weekly treatments. Also going to try some beeweaver queens and see how they compare with no treatments going into the dearth. But I'll treat before I start losing hives. If the beeweavers can make it TF than that's where I will go.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Robbin said:


> Hi Daniel,
> Glock doesn't fog anymore, he uses OAV, he meant he did 3 OAV treatments, one every 10 days. Then took a break, followed by another treatment and he took pictures of the mite boards after the break, following the 4th treatment.
> 
> I treated 5 times, once every week, Took a two week break and treated and started counting again Saturday. My worst hive had about two dozen yesterday afternoon, the others all had less than 10, but Glock said he gets the largest drop about 3 days after a treatment. That will be Tuesday, so I'll update this thread Wednesday. My hives are spinning down the brood, still some caped brood but not a lot.
> ...


I agree with everything Robbin said here. that's what I did and think .


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks for the details. I do 3 treatments and I still call it fogging by the way. Just fogging with something other than oils. I teat 3 times 8 days apart. It has been a while since I did the math but 10 days still falls in that window of catching all cells open during at least one application. As far as I am concerned brood or no brood is no issue. I have knocked mites out in my colonies during build up. They came to me as a nuc infested with mites. Had to do what I had to do. Good news is it worked.

I was about to get confused because when I here someone say they treated with OAV I imagine three applications. Was sort of getting a picture of hives burning. LOL


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I've been watching this thread for a few days..and am exhausted! 
I tried Apivar this year in the few hives I had to treat. One application. *Done.* 

Long lasting enough for all brood to hatch and expose all mites. 

Best thing since sliced bread, in my opinion. VSH genetics are pretty good too. I love my Glenn stock.


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Lauri said:


> I've been watching this thread for a few days..and am exhausted!
> I tried Apivar this year in the few hives I had to treat. One application. *Done.*
> 
> Long lasting enough for all brood to hatch and expose all mites.
> ...


Hi Lauri, 
I agree with you, with almost 200 hives you can't even consider what we're doing. That said, controling costs of my expensive hobby is my biggest task. Apivar costs a lot! OAV is pennies. As long as I'm under 20 hives, I'll keep trying other things.
Robbin


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

APIVAR does have some cost to it, but your time is surely worth something. I've ususlly got more time than money, but I use it. 
Even in a very large hive, I've never used more than three strips. Bottom two deeps broodnest area. Two strips in bottom, one strip in center in second. 

I'd be bummed if they took it away> I put it in and it's like the Monkey on my back is gone. No worries, no guessing. Happy bees. I get to go on with life

Surprisingly, the hives I had to treat this fall were the big cut out I got from an old cedar tree and a few swarms I collected. You'd think those swarms would have had a brood break and been pretty clean. The swarms were not from my yard...


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I know some of this thread is posted by some trying to figure the treatment methods out. I love beesource for this reason, sharing of ideas and experiences. But you all DO realize this method of mite control is _illegal_, and you of course realize you are positng on a_ public_ forum, right? Just checking.

Here's post from another recent thread I found interesting:

"Did you know that within just a couple days, a varroa mite takes on the odor of the bee she is on? Clever little vampires, eh?" 

Wow, that is amazing. First thing that comes to mind is coming up with a feed or treatment that will simply give the mites a distinct smell..so the bees can detect and remove them more easily on their own. 

Kimchi patties for mites, I can see it now Anyone ever use DMSO? You know what I'm talking about then.

Also reminds me of the human bodies immune system not recognizing cancer cells and allowing them to grow uncontrollably. Better _*Recognition *_may be key to better grooming behavior and non lethal mite loads. I'd like them to get after the mites like they do yellow jackets.

Here's the link to that other thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290529-Conference-Speakers

So keep on mite hunting my friends. Keep sharing ideas. Somethign easy to apply, inexpensive, non toxic, approved by the EPA would be a good idea. Just sayin'...


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Lauri said:


> APIVAR does have some cost to it, but your time is surely worth something.


My time doesn't come out of the checkbook, that I don't control.


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

APIVAR, huh.....The monkey has been on my back all fall. 

I thought I under treated by using one MAQ strip but my friends who used two strips back in September also have 80+ 100 + on a three day drop right now. I couldn't stand the high counts so I put a MAQ on my hive with a lot of brood a few days ago and then the temps dropped, so now I am worried about chilled brood. Are the mites resistant to MAQs? Are failing hives spreading the mites? Will OA do any good if the damage is already done? Does dead vs. living mites on a board indicate anything this time of year?

I will look into APIVAR for next year. We are sort of schooled that acids = good and hard chemicals = bad. I am staring to think that acid= mite infestation a month later. I have to wonder if this new beekeeping fad in the city is also bringing a mite epidemic as people (like me) bring in packages and don't mange them.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> So keep on mite hunting my friends. Keep sharing ideas. Somethign easy to apply, inexpensive, non toxic..


Chickens, they are like heat seeking missiles when it comes to bugs.


----------



## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

How do you cool the hot pot off in order to apply the next treatment.....seems it takes quite a while.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Chickens, they are like heat seeking missiles when it comes to bugs.

Hmmm, I thought bees would qualify as "bugs".

How do you get the mites separated from the bees so the chickens can eat the mites but not the bees? :scratch:


---------- 

_Oldforte_, I don't own an OA vaporizer, but I have seen comments from a number of owners that about a minute after the OAV application is completed, they plunge their vaporizers into a pot of water to cool them off for the next cycle.

This post from _SNL_, who sells vaporizers, recommends using water to cool the device:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...=1005998&highlight=cool+vaporizer#post1005998

.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Cost is a main factor in my choice for OAV. That it works is my first and I tested it before investing in the vaporizer. After just one year the cost of the vaporizer is down to less than 50 cents per application and falling. It cost less than my bee suit. The cost of the OA I do not even consider. It amounts to pennies per application.

I have gone from 0 hives to 20 in 18 months on less than $1800. That includes three bee suits an extractor two smokers three hive tools and other tools. I outfit three people for working the bees. That works out to less than $600 per person over a year and a half. That works out to less than $33 per person per month. Most beekeepers would spend more than that on lunches.

Time I have so much of I can't get it all filled. Money not so much. someone want to give me a home brew for apivar strips I will be happy to try them. Otherwise I am keeping bees to make money not spend it.

As for cooling the pot. it cools fairly quickly. Plus I set my cycle time to a warm pot. it only needs to cool enough to not vaporize the next dose of OA. Figure out how to make your own pot and the cost falls to around $15 per. Now I say that reluctantly because I spent nearly $100 farting around making my own. then bought one. I really need three to 4 of them. it is not very effective to have one person applying it while three stand around and watch.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

oldforte said:


> How do you cool the hot pot off in order to apply the next treatment.....seems it takes quite a while.


I heat mine up till I see the oa start to melt and vaporize then I stick it in the bottom entrance till the pot is half way in the hive then I stuff a towel around the entrance wait 65 sec. and then I flick the switch to off and wait 2.min. and go to the next takes around 5 min a hive if i'm moving fast and the pot does not over heat. 10 hives around a hour . I think the biggest thing to worry about with OAV is make sure your battery is not weak and walk away from the hive will its Vaporizing.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I was thinking about the time factor. By the time you open a hive and place strips I am not sure that vaporizing through the entrance would not actually be faster. Get more than one vaporizer running and I know it would be faster.

I have also thought of trying to install some sort of timer on the vaporizer to shut it off. that way you could turn it on walk away and be placing the next unit while the other one ran shut off and cooled.

I have not yet found the limit of a single battery fully charged. Has anyone else?


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Even though I really like Apivar, generally rotational treatments are necessary to control resistance. I've also tried hopguard, which has not been mentioned here. 
Each method of mite control, including powdered sugar, has it's time and place for usage. Ease of use and cost, effectiveness can all change with the seasons and rate of infestation of the hives.
In my opinion, very large badly infested hive that is still actively rearing brood would get Apivar. No question.
Smaller hives with open brood (Such as your golden opportunity when a virgin queen is getting established) or winter brood break would get a mild one time treatment method. Problem is, if you wait until there is a _winter _brood break, it is usually too late. (Just like trying to feed your light hive in November instead of in August and Sept.) 

Sometimes a brood break is all that is needed, I am a big believer in that. But it depends on the grooming traits of your bees. 

Good groomers+ brood break= clean hive.

Brood break+lazy 'live and let live bees'= some mite control help.

Just my experience

basically, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

But if after the main flow is over, the bees start to reduce brood rearing and your next batch of brood looks like this, you're in trouble.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Those using or considering Hopguard perhaps should read the Hopguard label and then consider if the application instructions are actually reliable. More on that situation sumarized in post #3 of this Hopguard thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...or-Hopguard-application&p=1016601#post1016601


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Ya, I didn't voice my opinion on hopguard here. It is not my favorite and is tricky to use. package instructions do not give any real details and in my opinion are incomplete. Once I figure out the best way to apply it, withought any issues I will post them. _It does knock down mites well_. But I had some absconding issues and queen balling when I tried it. And it needs to be applied three times if there is any brood present. 3 time treatment is Very hard to do in very large hives, unless you only have one or two hives to do.


----------



## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

Lauri, that picture is worth ten thousand words !


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Exactly, That's why I post so many photos. You can get so much more from a photo then just reading some text. 
Read the text, look at photo, say "Ah-Ha!"


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Daniel Y said:


> Time I have so much of I can't get it all filled. Money not so much. someone want to give me a home brew for apivar strips I will be happy to try them. Otherwise I am keeping bees to make money not spend it.


Happy? Really? Well it isn't hard. If you want to join the "underworld" just get yourself some tactic, emulsifier and canola oil and have at it. There are as many recipes for that stuff as there are recipes for chili or potato salad. Give us a progress report in a few years and tell us if you feel your bees are the better for it but you first might want to read what Randy Oliver says about the latest research of the effects of higher dosages of Amitraz on bees in the most recent ABJ. Make no mistake about it, though, by all accounts Apivar is a really effective product....at least right now.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Is Tactic even available anywhere?

It was about the time they pulled Amitraz from the market and they had not approved Apivar yet. Left the commercial guys with no treatments in 2012, which lead to the shortage of bees in 2013 for pollination. Don't quote me on that statement, That is just my memory of the thread I read quite a while ago..


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Lauri said:


> Is Tactic even available anywhere? I looked for it last year and it was no where to be found.
> 
> It was about the time they pulled Amitraz from the market and they had not approved Apivar yet. Left the commercial guys with no treatments in 2012, which lead to the shortage of bees in 2013 for pollination. Don't quote me on that statement, That is just my memory of the thread I read quite a while ago..


 I understand that it is still available just not through errrrr normal channels and, yes, it was generally agreed among commercials that its unavailability was a factor in the losses of 2012/13. I would assume that the approval of Apivar has changed the thinking of many, though.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_Taktic _is readily available in Australia, and here is one vendor that offers a price including air freight to USA customers:

http://www.thefarmstore.com.au/animal-farming-equipment-brands-1/brands-s-z/taktic/international-freight-to-usa-for-taktic-2lt-single-unit
If you poke around that site, they have other sizes available also.


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Well I didn't get to check my boards till today, so 7 days since my last treatment. 5 of the 6 had less than 30 over 7 days that started with a treatment.
The worst, the one that has been dropping 150 a day dropped between 150-200 over the week. So I plan to treat them all one more time as I've got to go out there to treat one anyway. I did 5 treatments a week apart and it really made a difference. The two hives treated with OAV faired as well or better than any hive treated with checkmite. The worst hive was a checkmite hive by the way. All got an OAV treatment last week. With brood spinning down I think one more treatment to be sure will do it. My plan for next year is 4 treatments a week a part during the build up, repeat during the heart of the dearth, which is when my hives crumbled this year and then a couple treatments before Thanksgiving to make sure they are good going into winter. Now that I'm sure OAV works, I will probably buy a second unit so I can treat the next hive while the unit is cooling from the first as I like to wait two minutes before removing the unit. That gives it time to finish vaporizing and start cooling while keeping the hive closed. OAV outside the hive doesn't help much.

Thanks glock for your posts on fogging and OAV. I've learned a lot during the discussions. My hives are much better for it....


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

fog (fôg, fg)
n.
1. Condensed water vapor in cloudlike masses lying close to the ground and limiting visibility.
2.
a. An obscuring haze, as of atmospheric dust or smoke.
b. A mist or film clouding a surface, as of a window, lens, or mirror.
3. A cloud of vaporized liquid, especially a chemical spray used in fighting fires.

va·por·ize (vp-rz)
tr. & intr.v. va·por·ized, va·por·iz·ing, va·por·iz·es
To convert or be converted into vapor.

Technically something has to be vaporized to then create a fog. So they are both part of the same complete process. You vaporize Formic Acid or you vaporize Oxalic Acid. Either way you create a fog.


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> fog (fôg, fg)
> n.
> 1. Condensed water vapor in cloudlike masses lying close to the ground and limiting visibility.
> 2.
> ...


You may be correct in the usage from the dictionary, but FOGGING with FGMO is NOTHING like an OA vaporizer. They may both use heat, but that's the only similarity. If anyone uses the term Fogging, I think FGMO fogging with an insecticide fogger, and I doubt I'm the only one... One creates a CLOUD OF FOG, the other I can see a wisp leaking from inside the hive.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Robbin, are you arguing over the size of the fog? Man made fog is going to be small in comparison to fog generated by the sun. There is logarithmic differences between the two energy sources.


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

No, you are arguing over the size of the fog. I'm discussing the common use of the term *fogging* as related to bee keeping, but if you thinking fogging is the common term for OAV, by all means, use it. My guess is, you're looking for an argument, but you won't get one from me. I know what Fogging means ...


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I can't speak for Ace, But I am defending my use of the word Fog in relation to FGMO as being accurate. Someone thought it important enough to attempt to correct me on it. I would consider what you are describing as atomizing.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Robbin said:


> My guess is, you're looking for an argument, but you won't get one from me.


Could of fooled me.


----------

