# OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues



## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

I had read that you CAN do oav treatment with honey supers on since there is some oxalic acid in honey. Can you tell me the reasons why it shouldn't be done? I would appreciate knowing...


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Well, if you wish to comply with the US EPA application regulations for oxalic acid as a varroa control, the honey supers should not be present. If you want to read the label / application instructions, here they are:
https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/091266-00001-20151013.pdf

Look for the section that says ...


> USE RESTRICTIONS:
> ...
> ...
> Do not use when honey supers are in place to prevent contamination of marketable honey.


Even those that do not intend to comply with label restrictions should at least _read_ the complete label. As the label also says, "_It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling._" That applies to *every* pesticide.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Thanks Rader, that's the info I wanted. So-- not with honey supers on...


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Something that seems (to me, at least; exercise your own judgement) to be a reasonable alternative is to physically block off the honey supers during the treatment. One way that could be done is to insert a piece of thin wood or plastic between the top brood box and the bottom honey super. You_ may_ be able to do that without actually having to remove the super(s). A piece of scrap 1/4" plywood should be the easiest to handle, or a piece of plexiglass comes to mind if you are prepared to buy something.


Removing the honey supers (or blocking them off completely) has a practical benefit. The brood boxes (say two per hive) are a more consistent cubic volume than a brood area + a random number of supers. Having a more consistent volume makes it easier to apply a consistent dose of OAV per cubic inch of brood space.

.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Rader,
Thanks for the option. I think I'll probably just use the oav when there are no honey supers on. But will keep your idea in the back of my brain in case something unusual comes up.
*
Do you use formic acid at all and if so, when??*


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

You could also "block" off the supers with newspaper. That way you don't have to remove the paper as the bees will chew through it and carry it out.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

I will be doing some trials on a number of hives this season where I will treat 6 hives with OAV every 2 weeks through the season, now to prevent the OAV from entering into my honey supers I have built some Imrie shims that include my Queen excluders. The shims have a 1/4" hole at the back and under the excluder so when I want to treat I will slip into the shim a board that will cover the excluder and thereby prevent the OAV from moving out of the brood boxes into the supers. The boards can be removed when the vapor has settled but while this is going on the workers still have access to the supers.


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## aiannar974 (Mar 29, 2017)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

I know that when the supers are blocked or removed no OA crystals will settle on them, but the hive can have 10s or thousands of bees that have crystals on them and they might be all over the hive after supers are available. Seems to me that OA will be moved around no matter what. I understand and will follow the rules because I don't want to take any chances but it just doesn't seem too logical.


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## beemantn (Jan 4, 2019)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

If I "have to or need to" treat with supers on I just insert some cardboard between the supers & brood boxes. No particular reason for using cardboard except it is usually handy & free.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

I have a couple questions for those who insert some form of a barrier between the brood boxes and supers when doing an OAV treatment. I always treat with the supers off, so I'm just trying to get clarification on a couple of things I haven't been able to understand if this option is used.

If treating with supers on, will a bee escape or fume board be used first to clear the supers of all the bees and then insert something under the supers when treating? If so, why not just clear the supers and then set them to the side while treating. The supers have to be removed anyway if a barrier will be added above the brood boxes.

If the supers are not cleared first, then isn't it true that all of the potentially thousands of bees in the supers are not getting dusted with a good coating of OAV crystals from the treatment? I understand there is a residual effect for days following the treatment, but I wonder if it is enough to compensate for the lack of proper exposure on so many bees isolated from the initial treatment area.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

What I am trying to do is see what the difference is between spaced treatments year around that could be done as part of inspections normally carried out as against heavy summer treatments into fall once the mite load has been allowed to grow during the honey season. Now there is no point in having to remove and replace supers twice for treatments and as I use queen excluders anyhow using the shims which in fact are quite similar to a Cloake board all you are doing is preventing OAV and bees from crossing between the brood boxes and honey supers for 5 to 10 minutes while the treatment is taking place. As the majority of the mites will be on the nurse bees in the brood chamber I expect to keep the mite numbers low throughout the summer season. I will just have to wait and see.


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



aiannar974 said:


> I know that when the supers are blocked or removed no OA crystals will settle on them, but the hive can have 10s or thousands of bees that have crystals on them and they might be all over the hive after supers are available. Seems to me that OA will be moved around no matter what. I understand and will follow the rules because I don't want to take any chances but it just doesn't seem too logical.


There has been a smattering of research done and that research has found no appreciable difference in OA levels between supers left on and supers isolated from treatments. Research requires money and the EPA is erring on the safe side of things. They make the rules and until someone does a study the EPA will consider credible, and then hem and haw for a decade it is the way it is. 

Lee


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

I want to treat all the bees, I don't want to treat the supers. So, the day before I set a bee escape board under the supers. tTe next morning I lift the supers and slide in a plastic board and set the supers back down.

Treat. Leave things be for an hour or so.

Remove the supers, remove the plastic board, remove the bee escape board.

Reassemble, w/o bee escape or plastic.

Repeat four days later (placing bee escape on the day before treatment.) 

Even though I don't take any honey except a modest amount for my own use, and I do believe the research that seems to show the increase is minimal, I go through this process. but I have far fewer hives than commercial or sideliner beekeepers, so I can afford the time it takes. I decided to ignore the possibility that OA crystals were moved to the honey supers after the treatment. 

The main problem with OAV-ing with supers on is that you are also likely to have a good deal of capped brood in the hive at the same time. And the majority of the mites in the hive at the time of the treatment maybe sojourning with the pupae under the cappings and thus protected from the effects of the OA. So you are extracting the same biological cost from the adult bees, with less to show for it in terms of killing mites. The biological cost to the adult bees and the colony, as a whole, is probably very modest, but it is not zero. I prefer to try and manage my mite-killing affairs at times when each of the chemicals are best suited to the time/season at the moment. For summer treatment I use formic acid. This is not hard in my northern-summer climate. I usually can identify a one-week interval with suitable temps. And the bonus with formic is you get a "free" whack at any tracheal mites that are lingering around.

Nancy


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



Grins said:


> There has been a smattering of research done and that research has found no appreciable difference in OA levels between supers left on and supers isolated from treatments. Research requires money and the EPA is erring on the safe side of things. They make the rules and until someone does a study the EPA will consider credible, and then hem and haw for a decade it is the way it is.
> 
> Lee


If I remember correctly Randy Oliver is working with the EPA and doing OAV with supers on to see if it's ok to change the label.


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



wildbranch2007 said:


> If I remember correctly Randy Oliver is working with the EPA and doing OAV with supers on to see if it's ok to change the label.


Wow, that's good to know, thanks!

Lee


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

He is working with an extended release appuaction, OA/Gly impregnated in paper towel, not OAV


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



msl said:


> He is working with an extended release appuaction, OA/Gly impregnated in paper towel, not OAV


yes and also the OAV,


> >
> > >I'm not sure why anyone would worry about trace amounts of oxalic acid in
> > honey.
> 
> ...


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

To add on to what Radar said, legally you should only use oxalic acid powder that has been purchased from Brushy Mountain or has Brushy Mountain label on it, since that's what has been approved for in-hive use for varroa mite control. Brushy Mountain has closed and I haven't heard anything concrete about anyone else in the US selling an EPA approved oxalic acid treatment.


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## cdevier (Jul 17, 2010)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Give me a break! oxalic acid is oxalic acid . period.


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



cdevier said:


> Give me a break! oxalic acid is oxalic acid . period.


Can you support that assertion with scientific data?

Lee


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## twinoaks (Sep 1, 2018)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



johno said:


> I will be doing some trials on a number of hives this season where I will treat 6 hives with OAV every 2 weeks through the season, now to prevent the OAV from entering into my honey supers I have built some Imrie shims that include my Queen excluders. The shims have a 1/4" hole at the back and under the excluder so when I want to treat I will slip into the shim a board that will cover the excluder and thereby prevent the OAV from moving out of the brood boxes into the supers. The boards can be removed when the vapor has settled but while this is going on the workers still have access to the supers.


Hi John. The shims sound interesting and something worth trying out. Could you possible post a picture?


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## Honeybeenut (Apr 16, 2017)

The reason that's on the label is because it's considered a miteacide. 
If purified water would kill mites and you was going to use that as a miteacide they would recommend you take the supers off simply because it's considered a miteacide. 
I recommend you follow directions but that's my two cents.


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## Alex Madsen (Aug 26, 2018)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



Grins said:


> Can you support that assertion with scientific data?
> 
> Lee


I am sure not all OA is created equal. That is why I order the lab grade stuff with purity specifications. No wood bleach for me.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



Alex Madsen said:


> No wood bleach for me.


Just an FYI, Savogran wood bleach is 99.7% pure.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



snl said:


> Just an FYI, Savogran wood bleach is 99.7% pure.



And from what I have read the other 0.3 or impurities in OA are just iron salts.


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



Alex Madsen said:


> I am sure not all OA is created equal. That is why I order the lab grade stuff with purity specifications. No wood bleach for me.


Yeah..., that was a joke that obviously fell flat. Oh well. I use the cheap stuff, the Savogran sold in most hardware stores. Other than being a bit pissed about the hot iron I shove in their home the bees do just fine.

Lee


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Here is the setup that I made with the excluder in a shim with a top cover so that I can close off the brood chamber and do an OAV treatment without having to remove any honey supers


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



Rader Sidetrack said:


> Something that seems (to me, at least; exercise your own judgement) to be a reasonable alternative is to physically block off the honey supers during the treatment. One way that could be done is to insert a piece of thin wood or plastic between the top brood box and the bottom honey super. You_ may_ be able to do that without actually having to remove the super(s). A piece of scrap 1/4" plywood should be the easiest to handle, or a piece of plexiglass comes to mind if you are prepared to buy something.
> 
> 
> Removing the honey supers (or blocking them off completely) has a practical benefit. The brood boxes (say two per hive) are a more consistent cubic volume than a brood area + a random number of supers. Having a more consistent volume makes it easier to apply a consistent dose of OAV per cubic inch of brood space.
> ...


A simple solution to this may be to use a cloake board under all supers rather than a plain excluder. Then when using OAV you could simply slide the solid board into the cloake board insert and isolate the brood chamber from the supers


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

never mind i just stated what has already been said above. lol


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

John, do you use a filler board to block the gap when the cover is not in place? Seems like a really large upper entrance for the bees to defend, and right next to the honey too.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

JW I will restrict the entrance a little when I first super up but once the flow starts that will be wide open and be the main entrance. Once the nectar flow begins there will be no robbing going on, I can actuall leave open honey around and the bees pay no attention to it. Just dont leave any honey around when the flow is over.


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## Airwreck (Feb 9, 2013)

Why in the world do you want to contaminate your hive with OA?
It is obvious you do not understand the life cycle of the Varro mite.
If you get your bees back to their natural state 4.9 mm or smaller!
You will eliminate the Varro mite problem!
Do the reaserch, the Varro mite was never a problem until man thought, bigger is better.
I have natural bees sized hives, have zero problem with mites


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## Alex Madsen (Aug 26, 2018)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



Grins said:


> Yeah..., that was a joke that obviously fell flat. Oh well. I use the cheap stuff, the Savogran sold in most hardware stores. Other than being a bit pissed about the hot iron I shove in their home the bees do just fine.
> 
> Lee


It was not a joke. Lab grad OA is inexpensive. One bag will last me a lifetime.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Somwhere I hear a jackass braying in the wilderness.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



johno said:


> Somwhere I hear a jackass braying in the wilderness.


I hear Dolly Parton singing "Here We Go Again". 

Alex


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



johno said:


> Somwhere I hear a jackass braying in the wilderness.


Oh yes. The woo is strong with this one.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

My comment was for Airwreck. As in, I've heard that before.

Alex


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



AHudd said:


> My comment was for Airwreck. As in, I've heard that before.
> 
> Alex


We all knew who the comment was for. Pretty funny one too. Except now I can't get the **** song out of my head.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



cdevier said:


> Give me a break! oxalic acid is oxalic acid . period.


Can not find anything on the "wood bleach" label stating to remove or block supers. In fact nothing about treating bee with it all.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



Grins said:


> Can you support that assertion with scientific data?
> 
> Lee


No data on not supporting that assertion either!


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## Airwreck (Feb 9, 2013)

Well Alex you can stand on your soap box and preach all you want!
Untill you have small cell bees on small cell comb, can you truly testify!
Oh well , bee happy eating contaminated honey! 😄😄


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Well, Airwreck, I am happy, although my honey isn't contaminated because I don't treat with supers on and only three times a year.

When I said, here we go again, I was thinking of the debate you were trying unleash. The topic has been discussed ad nauseam. 

Soap box, preach, testify. You're giving yourself away. And t:

Alex


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

duplicate


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Oxalic acid vaporization is used in Europe with honey supers.

Haven't seen anything indicating that European honey is not safe to consume.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



username00101 said:


> Oxalic acid vaporization is used in Europe with honey supers.


I’ve “heard” that but don’t have any references. Anyone?


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

I've wondered about that. Do want my honey to be safe but what exactly does the oxalic acid do to make the honey unusable for humans?

Don't the bees remove the crystals? I think I'm remembering that right.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



Sr. Tanya said:


> Don't the bees remove the crystals? I think I'm remembering that right.


Yup, the see them as trash and haul them out.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



Sr. Tanya said:


> Don't the bees remove the crystals?


The crystals coat all surfaces inside the hives. The bees clean up all of these crystals and remove them in fairly short order. Crystals landing on capped frames will not penetrate the brood or honey cappings and are cleaned up.

I think the main question mark is, what about the crystals that land on open cells of honey and nectar in the supers. They will become part of the liquid. Is it enough to make any difference?


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## Plannerwgp (May 18, 2019)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

The label should answer your question. I do everything possible to not contaminate my honey. Contrary to the advice of many in the bee world this is a very powerful chemical and caution is advised when using it. Even if there is some possible method of keeping the supers on, why take the risk? I couldn't give or sell my honey that may have been exposed to this or other chemicals. Just a thought from an old man.


Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well, if you wish to comply with the US EPA application regulations for oxalic acid as a varroa control, the honey supers should not be present. If you want to read the label / application instructions, here they are:
> https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/091266-00001-20151013.pdf
> 
> Look for the section that says ...
> ...


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Mike,
After I posted I was thinking about where the crystals would land and that's the answer I came up with too. Open cells would be affected. If oxalic acid is in the hive naturally (In the honey naturally?) how much is too much?

I just like to know as much as possible about a topic as I can. I'm just asking questions to understand better.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

This post was originally responding to an earlier one, doesn’t apply here, sorry about that !


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

???


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Thanks Cloverdale.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



Sr. Tanya said:


> I just like to know as much as possible about a topic as I can. I'm just asking questions to understand better.


I know what you mean. I don't think there is a definitive answer yet on this, at least not that I'm aware of. 

Arsenic is found naturally in some foods we eat. Does that mean that it's OK to add more arsenic to food because natural trace amounts are considered safe? How much additional arsenic would still be rated as safe?

I'm not at all judging anyone for their approach to OAV and treating with supers on. That's none of my business. It's probably alright, but there are still questions left unanswered, for me anyway. For now I feel comfortable making the extra effort to treat without supers, and I have a clear conscience selling honey to my customers. Might be overkill, that's just how I'm wired.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

A full round of 5 OAV treatments results in as much as an extra 25mg of OA per pound of honey, which is about as harmful as eating a bag of potato chips.


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## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

*Fall Extraction Blues*

Every year I have the same two issues in the fall. The honey is above 18% but I have to get it off the hives to treat and I can't get the bees out of the supers. I started some robbing at one yard yesterday now I have to return the supers to clean them up. When I put them on the hives they condense the honey and keep filling them so I have to fight them to get them off all over again. 

Is it too crazy to let them rob them out under a tarp in a community garden? Am I still going to have a mess of bees eating wax and not wanting to get off the combs?

Some of the honey is at 19%. Any tricks to get the moisture down? I used my grow light last year but it was a pain.


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## mbear (May 18, 2017)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*

The obvious answer is to leave them on longer and put off your treatment a couple of weeks. If you insist pulling them to wet then use a fan to dry them out. I built a small room that I put my supers in for a few days. I keep a portable heater in there to get the temperature up before I i spin the frames.


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## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*

Don't put off treatments. You want the bees that raise the winter bees to be as healthy as possible. 
When I pull my supers and extract, I no longer put them back on the hives to have the bees clean them. That required me to remove the bees twice which is too much work. 
Now, I open feed with the wet supers to have the bees clean them off. Sure, there is some tearing of the comb but I put a lid under them to catch the wax and melt it down in the solar melter. The bees will have them cleaned up in less than a day.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*



Margot1d said:


> Some of the honey is at 19%. Any tricks to get the moisture down? I used my grow light last year but it was a pain.


Small room with dehumidifier.....


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*

A couple 2x4's with supers on top of them and a fan on top blowing down through them. It works here with our humidity.


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## amk (Dec 16, 2017)

I live on the Texas coast and my honey 100% capped runs at 18%. You can search and find some just naturally holds more moisture. I think clover can safely go up to 20%. If all your local buddy’s are having there’s at 17% and your at 18-19 maybe you do have an issue but 18 might be your normal and it should be fine mine has never done any kind of fermenting at that level. One year I tried drying the supers as some suggested and that honey crystallized within a few weeks although that could just be coincidental.


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*

I just store the supers wet. Eliminate that issue altogether.


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## Sickdog5 (Jun 8, 2016)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*

My last batch of honey i put it in a small room with a dehumidifier for a couple day's. Stirring it occasionally got it down to 16%


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*



Margot1d said:


> Every year I have the same two issues in the fall. The honey is above 18% but I have to get it off the hives to treat and I can't get the bees out of the supers. I started some robbing at one yard yesterday now I have to return the supers to clean them up. When I put them on the hives they condense the honey and keep filling them so I have to fight them to get them off all over again.
> 
> Is it too crazy to let them rob them out under a tarp in a community garden? Am I still going to have a mess of bees eating wax and not wanting to get off the combs?
> 
> Some of the honey is at 19%. Any tricks to get the moisture down? I used my grow light last year but it was a pain.


One option is to switch to OAV, safe to use with honey present.

Or formic acid.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*



username00101 said:


> One option is to switch to OAV, safe to use with honey present.


Curious where you get that idea ? Do you have a reference link to a pesticide registration that says it's safe to expose Oxalic Acid Vapour to a food product during production ? 

From the CHC website, folks who are holders of the registration and own the label in Canada, from which the American approval was drawn directly.

https://www.honeycouncil.ca/documents/29575 Approved E label 04Nov2010.pdf

==========
DIRECTIONSFOR USE 

CAUTION: Oxalic Acid Dihydrate might damage bee brood. Oxalic Acid Dihydrate will not control Varroa mites in capped brood. Use only in late fall or early spring when little or no brood is present. Do not use when honey supers are in place to prevent contamination of marketable honey. 

==========

Note the part about 'Do not use when honey supers are present'.

The constant bad advice and 'I know better than the folks who registered the product' attitude around here really devalues this site.

I produce a food crop for sale. We use Oxalic Acid in our colonies, it's a registered pesticide. There is no way in hades I would expose myself to the potential liability of selling a food product that has been improperly exposed to a pesticide by applying Oxalic Acid with honey supers on when the product label specifically prohibits that use.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*



grozzie2 said:


> Curious where you get that idea ? Do you have a reference link to a pesticide registration that says it's safe to expose Oxalic Acid Vapour to a food product during production ?
> 
> From the CHC website, folks who are holders of the registration and own the label in Canada, from which the American approval was drawn directly.
> 
> ...


It's safe to use, even if government uses words like pesticide, etc. Not approved for use. Probably a bad thing if big government catches someone doing it.

Please see https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?356975-OA-vaporization-is-probably-safe-with-honey-supers-here-s-my-calculations

Bottom line: OA vape treatment makes a pound of honey less "dangerous" than a serving of tofu.

Just to reiterate: OA vaporization is technically classified as a pesticide by the government. Which is a law, but it's not accurate. I won't go into the rhetoric of debating classifications and government organizations etc.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*

grozzie is 100% correct on this.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*

I am with grozzie on this too. That said, I have about a gallon and a half of honey that I harvested after treating with OAV. It is for personal consumption only and will not be sold or given away. At some point I imagine that the instuctions for use will change to reflect what most of us believe to be true, but until then, we all need to follow law. Sounds pretty simple to me.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*



username00101 said:


> It's safe to use, even if government uses words like pesticide, etc. Not approved for use. Probably a bad thing if big government catches someone doing it.


Everyone has to do their own risk analysis for how they proceed in various parts of life. If one is not selling a product, then there is little / no potential liability exposure. If one has no assets to protect, then liability is just an abstract concept. We sell our honey, and we do have a substantial asset base against which a liability judgement could apply. Not worth it to put my entire farm at risk over something as small as proper mite treatments. Your mileage may vary.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*

I started the small room and dehumidifier this year and I also would say yes to that. I have a small back porch, 7 x 8, and put the supers I take off out there on a small tarp and run the dehumidifier. Capped or no I take what I need to take and when. It makes life much easier and dried down easy in two days. The room gets below 50% and about 95 degrees. Warm honey extracts better too.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*

Promoting treating with supers on: 

Doing something to yourself is one thing; trying to drum up support to have others do it crosses into different territory. The possible effects on the public perception of honey's _natural purity_ would be impossible to estimate. The potential costs to that image may fall on others, so the right to free speech is not unlimited.

I am no stickler for always following the letter of the law but there are times and places where it is probably much better to stay mum about ones deviations.


----------



## aran (May 20, 2015)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*

im in the same boat every year. I just give a round of formic pro and give them a little more time to cap the honey. Still a good flow going in upstate NY.
If you plan on leaving the honey for the bees and need to treat with them on then you need to use a Rx which is ok with the supers on.
If not and you want to use apivar/OAV or whatever then those supers become part of the permanent brood nest in my book.


----------



## 2Dogs52 (Mar 3, 2018)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Hi Everyone,
I have a few questions on the OAV subject and maybe someone watching this post can answer or give direction as to where to look for solid answers on this. I have two hives with two medium honey supers on each. Every time I treated the bees I pulled the supers off. I was doing the 3 treatments for 21 day method. I got one hive with two treatments so far and the other with one treatment. I did some reading and found a post from Perfect Bee that you need to wait 14 days before placing the honey supers back on. Out of my 4 Supers 2 were all Capped honey but 2 were not before I started treatment. I placed my honey supers back on 15 minutes after each treatment. At this point I'm sure the bees have tracked the OA back into the 2 supers with uncapped honey cells. Do I have any way to test the honey to see if I have OA level problems with my honey or should I dump 4 honey supers full of honey? I'm in my second year of bee keeping and have learned a great deal from taking local classes and reading post on this site. My local bee instructor told us to pull the supers off treat with OAV and place back on after a 15 minute wait time. Did I make a huge screw up on my part? I treated last year with MAQS and had issues with a lot of dead bees from treatment. The bees made it thru the winter but I was nervous about having queen issues with using MAQS. Thanks for looking and just wondering if there is any solid information out there on this?


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

This is a topic in which there is a whole lot more opinion and conjecture than hard data. Fourteen days seems way too long to wait and 15 minutes way too short. When treating with OAV it is generally recommended to keep the hive closed up for the 10 minutes or so that the micro crystals are circulating around the hive. So off-hand I would guess that you have not gained much by slapping the supers back on in 15 minutes. It is also accepted by most that the OA is gone by around day three as the bees work diligently to remove the substance from the hive. I would consider that the longest you would need to wait. Practically, I imagine an hour or two is all that is needed. But, this is an opinion and does not have any scientific data to back it up. 

Also, your location is listed as Grafton. Which state? Google maps came up with several possibilities. Where I am, honey supers are pulled long before the first round of OAV is applied.


----------



## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*



crofter said:


> Promoting treating with supers on:
> 
> Doing something to yourself is one thing; trying to drum up support to have others do it crosses into different territory. The possible effects on the public perception of honey's _natural purity_ would be impossible to estimate. The potential costs to that image may fall on others, so the right to free speech is not unlimited.
> 
> I am no stickler for always following the letter of the law but there are times and places where it is probably much better to stay mum about ones deviations.


THIS


----------



## edzkoda (Aug 9, 2014)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*

Another for formic and wait.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*

I'll second aran's suggestion. I've had the same issue with too much uncapped honey in the supers late in the season including this year, but putting off treatments is risky if you want to get your colonies prepared for winter. Formic Pro seems to be the answer for me now. 
I used to use OAV exclusively year round but in the fall the timing is difficult, here at least, to get all the supers off before doing a series of treatments at the correct time. For a couple seasons now I've been using OAV in "late" fall after the supers are off to clean up any mites from robbing, and also a single treatment in winter when broodless. Formic is a great mite knock down in "early" fall at the most critical time, before supers are pulled. 
Take the high road and resist using OAV with uncapped supers on the hives. Our reputations are at stake.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

"It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling."

"READ THIS LABEL: Read the entire label. This product must be used strictly in accordance with this label’s precautionary statements and use directions, as well as with all applicable State and Federal laws and regulations."

"USE RESTRICTIONS:

Do not use when honey supers are in place to prevent contamination of marketable honey."

cite: https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/091266-00001-20151013.pdf


like it or not, agree with it or not, fuzzy math disproven or not, at this point in time this label is the law and none of the above will exempt you from the consequences should you be found in violation of it.

notice also that there is no provision in the label for the placement of a 'barrier' between the honey supers and the rest of the hive receiving the treatment. 

comments, suggestions, and/or advice given here on the forum that is contradictory to these label restrictions (thereby promoting the violation of u.s. federal law) in my view is crossing a line with respect to promoting responsible content here on the forum.

going forward any such content will be edited.


----------



## Grins (May 24, 2016)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



squarepeg said:


> "It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling."
> 
> "READ THIS LABEL: Read the entire label. This product must be used strictly in accordance with this label’s precautionary statements and use directions, as well as with all applicable State and Federal laws and regulations."
> 
> ...


Squarepeg, what are the consequences?


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



Grins said:


> Squarepeg, what are the consequences?


https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/170.9


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Beekeepers by their nature seem to be a bit on the contrarian side, thus a discussion on methods that seems to meet the letter of the law while ignoring the intent. Or conversely seems to meet the intent while ignoring the letter. So a question does remain, if one follows the label and removes the honey supers prior to treating so they are not "in place", how long after treating do they need to remain not "in place" to comply with the intent? This is not part of the directions for use and pehaps should be. I would argue that once the vapors had subsided and the hive had aired out some, there was no longer a threat of exposure to the honey supers and they could be placed back on the hive.

With regard to barriers, thank you Squarepeg for reminding us all that the use of a barrier is not an approved method of having the the supers not in place, isolation is not quite the same as removal.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



JWPalmer said:


> So a question does remain, if one follows the label and removes the honey supers prior to treating so they are not "in place", how long after treating do they need to remain not "in place" to comply with the intent? This is not part of the directions for use and perhaps should be.


excellent point jwp. in my view and insofar as it is not specifically addressed in the label it is an open question and your argument is as good as any.

and to be clear, i am not arguing against any of the points made. nor i am trying to tell any beekeeper what to do or not do with their bees, never have and never will.

my position has to do with maintaining content on the forum that is responsible and respects the rule of law.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



JWPalmer said:


> It is also accepted by most that the OA is gone by around day three as the bees work diligently to remove the substance from the hive.


I have herd this said a LOT, dose any one have a study to back this? Seems like internet rumor. 
We know dribble persists for good while, but it also kills mites 3-4X longer then OAV to


> The distribution of oxalic acid dihydrate within a colony was shown by
> macro-computed tomography; it was rapid and consistent. The increased density of the individual
> bee was continuous for at least 14 days after the treatment indicating the presence of oxalic acid
> dihydrate in the hive even long after a treatment


 Rademacher Et Al 2017

I would table the ALT that the Anhydrous OAV sucks up hive moisture and becomes dehydrate again, changing crystal size and type and rendering it invective at killing mites. 
Either way, I feel the idea that bee could some how pickup a crystal the size created by vaporizing and "diligently" remove it.... a bit far fetched here i it one bee 









> So a question does remain, if one follows the label and removes the honey supers prior to treating so they are not "in place", how long after treating do they need to remain not "in place" to comply with the intent? This is not part of the directions for use and perhaps should be.


Yes, it should be (but OA got ramrodded threw)

The label holders web site said 14 days 
in the approval letter the EPA said 
"


> Should you wish to add/retain a reference to the company’s website on your label, then please be
> aware that the website becomes labeling under the Federal Insecticide Fungicide and Rodenticide
> Act and is subject to review by the Agency. If the website is false or misleading, the product
> would be misbranded and unlawful to sell or distribute under FIFRA section 12(a)(1)(E). 40
> ...


 https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/091266-00001-20151013.pdf

however we have more on the label, yes?
it reads 


> "Use only in late fall or early spring when little or no brood is present.


 so relay at no time it would be reasonable for super to be on and "most" of us to be using it

And then there is the anti "course" of treatments statement
" rotate the use of miticides to reduce selection pressure as compared to repeatedly using the
same product, mode or action or chemical class. If multiple applications are required, use a different mode of
action each time before returning to a previously-used one." 
yes by the label you cant vape your bees 2-3-10-20 times in a row

OAD is a powerful tool, the we should work hard to protect to continue to be powerfull


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



msl said:


> by the label you cant vape your bees 2-3-10-20 times in a row


Nor are you allowed to vapourise from any position other than via the bottom of the hive, nor use any purity other than 97%. 

Seems that some changes to the label - or indeed to the legislation itself - is required.
LJ


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



msl said:


> I have herd this said a LOT, dose any one have a study to back this? Seems like internet rumor.
> We know dribble persists for good while, but it also kills mites 3-4X longer then OAV to
> Rademacher Et Al 2017
> 
> ...


I agree with your words questioning the vision of individual bees selecting and carting out the microcrystals of OA. First time I have seen it written. I think that scenario is a bit more a parable than a literal explanation. 

My take is that absorption of ambient moisture reduces the dust to an acidic film which the bees gradually and unintentionally pick up on their feet and body hairs. This gets blown or rubbed off in the course of their outside the colony activities. The huge surface area of a bees "fur" is an amazing mop!

Reading Randy's articles researching the miticide effect of the contact with moist dissolved OA/Glycerine on assorted cellulose contact strips, suggests to me that the acidic film and not the microcrystal structure is the uptake method.

There are hundreds of pages of posts on https://www.nzbees.net/forums/ about experience with this method. Also quite a bit of discussion on the facts, philosophy and legal implications regarding its effects on honey present. New Zealand's regulations are different than what we are subject to, so the conversation is somewhat different than ours. They are as aware as we are about image, legal, and marked implications but very focused on the necessity for practical solutions.


----------



## Grins (May 24, 2016)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



squarepeg said:


> https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/170.9


Thanks.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Ok, ok. The idea was not to suggest that any individual bee was purposefully picking up individual crystals of OA and carting them out, but that a mechanism was in place for them to remove the powder, much in the way that bees do not purposefully pick up individual grains of pollen yet somehow manage to collect an awful lot of it.


----------



## 2Dogs52 (Mar 3, 2018)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Hi JWPalmer,
Thanks for your reply. I live near Grafton, Ohio. I update my info on location. 
At this point I'm not going to harvest the honey and the bees are going to get all of it back for winter.  I was wondering if you could send out a sample from each super and get it tested for the level of OA? That would make me feel better about giving it away if I knew the level of OA in the honey. I usually give most of my honey away and just don't want any issues with the OAV treatment being a problem with the honey. Do you know if the frames can be reused from the super of do I toss them? At this point I may be going back to teating next summer with MAQS. 

Thanks again for the reply..


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

2Dogs, I am not familiar with any particular labs that test for OA in honey. I am sure most small labs could do it if they knew what they were looking for, but at what cost? Even testing groundwater samples for trace metals was quite steep.
Since you are feeding this honey to the bees it really isn't an issue. And remember that OA is found in the honey naturally so you would need to establish a baseline first to know how much came from treatments. Good news is that OA is not absorbed into or adsorbed onto the wax. Frames present during treatment would be safe to re use once emptied. I would not get too concerned, the arguments presented in the earlier posts regarding the oxalic acid concentrations in many of the foods we already enjoy are valid. The issue has more to do with obeying the law as written, and this website NOT advocating otherwise, than anything related to food safety.
In a funny and ironic twist, I have already admitted to harvesting some honey from a hive that had received an OA treatment, yet I complied with the law. I am not marketing the honey and there were no honey supers present when I treated. However, the second _*brood box *_was solidly packed with cross combed and capped honey. I took half and gave the bees half. Ok, the bees took half. When I went to get the remaining honey, all I found was empty comb (help, I've been robbed). I processed over 2# of beeswax from this deep, but that is another story.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



> My take is that absorption of ambient moisture reduces the dust to an acidic film which the bees gradually and unintentionally pick up on their feet and body hairs. This gets blown or rubbed off in the course of their outside the colony activities. The huge surface area of a bees "fur" is an amazing mop!


perhaps, I think biological break down is far more likely. But the mop effect is a key point against the idea that blocking supers for a few min will have a meaningful (but illeagle) effect 



> Reading Randy's articles researching the miticide effect of the contact with moist dissolved OA/Glycerine on assorted cellulose contact strips, suggests to me that the acidic film and not the microcrystal structure is the uptake method.


that is one way to look at its, however It is felt that OAV and dribble have different modes of action. Dribble has a longer effective killing period 2 weeks vs 2 days witch backs that up. If the acid film concept was true, I would expect to be able to just dust a spoon full on a hive or dribble with water not suryp. but neither of those seem to work.


----------



## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



squarepeg said:


> notice also that there is no provision in the label for the placement of a 'barrier' between the honey supers and the rest of the hive receiving the treatment.



First, I fully agree with your post SP and we need to be careful when we openly discuss supplanting the law with our own judgment which we have little or no scientific evidence to support. However, I will, respectfully, push back somewhat on the statement I have quoted from you above.

While you are correct that the label does not contain a provision for inserting a barrier, it also does not contain a provision for removing my supers and storing them in my garage 15 miles away before I treat with OAV. ALL the label prohibits is the use of this product while supers are “IN PLACE.” The label, nor the EPA, state what is required to legally DISPLACE your supers. Whether that be by 15 miles, or by 1/4 inch.

I am not trying to be cute or pedantic about this. I am also not trying to read additional things into what the label requires, other than what is actually stated in the label. As beekeepers, we should FOLLOW THE LABEL.


----------



## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

There is also an argument within the law in regards to "What would a reasonable person believe?" when it comes down to parsing the letter of the law. 

I believe the label means for us to remove the supers. JMHO

Alex


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

good post psm1212 and no argument from me on anything you said.

(and it's not like we have oxalic acid police patrolling our apiaries but...)

would you suppose that the 'reasonable man' standard would apply were it become an issue?

do the epa 'labelers' have a record of being 'reasonable'?

would you be optimistic for a successful outcome if having to defend the use of a 1/4" displacement based on the fact that the label does not spell it out?

as has been mentioned by others the label is lacking in many ways but for now it is what it is. i appreciate the feedback from you and from the others who have taken the time insofar as how we need to handle the issue with respect the content we display here on the forum.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Reasonable is keeping OA away from honey.

Labor savings? Maybe, maybe not.


----------



## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

And I'll bet the EPA would spend a lot more money defending their position than any of us would, or could, for that matter. 

Alex


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

> And I'll bet the EPA would spend a lot more money defending their position than any of us would, or could, for that matter.
> 
> Alex


The truth is that the worst case normally is that your stuff would just be remove from being for sale. I guess that is money though. I just looked through a bunch of epa actions in Mo and I quit after a few of seeing that no fines were acessed. They do have more money to spend cause if they don't have enough they can get some taxes and get more. I am pretty sure they have bigger fish to fry like lead paint and asbestos.

Having the epa is a good thing cause there needs to be some standards to try and live up to. They are like the bible, many try and live up to it but few really do.

It is like speeding, You do 5 MPH over and it is mostly over looked but they frown on you doing 100, ask me how I know.
Cheers
gww


----------



## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



squarepeg said:


> would you suppose that the 'reasonable man' standard would apply were it become an issue?
> 
> do the epa 'labelers' have a record of being 'reasonable'?
> 
> would you be optimistic for a successful outcome if having to defend the use of a 1/4" displacement based on the fact that the label does not spell it out?


I want to comply with both the spirit and the letter of the label. I truly see no difference in the following 2 scenarios:

scenario 1: Insert barrier between brood chambers and super chambers Saturday evening and apply OAV. Sunday morning remove barrier.

scenario 2: Remove honey supers to garage Saturday evening and apply OAV. Return them to the the hive Sunday morning.

I do not see why the displacement in scenario 1 is any less effective than the displacement in scenario 2 with regard to honey exposure to OAV. 

Scenario 1 just seems like a smarter way of doing it. And, I keep a portion of my bees in the top boxes to keep my SHB at bay. If I take the supers to my garage, I will give the SHB a prime opportunity. I have no reason to think that the OAV somehow permeates the coroplast board that separates the chambers or the wooden sidewalls of the honey supers. I think too much importance is being placed on proximity and not enough on the effectiveness of the displacement of the supers.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

Use only in late fall or early spring when little
or no brood is present. Oxalic Acid Dihydrate
might damage bee brood. Oxalic Acid
Dihydrate will not control Varroa mites in
capped brood.
Do not use when honey supers are in place
to prevent contamination of marketable
honey.
Apply only when monitoring indicates
treatment is required.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*

There is a whole bunch of violations when used as a summer preventive measure. "in place" is the specific wording debated here. Spent 20 years debating the meaning of DFARs and mil- specs. I do not believe supers separated by a barrier from the main body of the hive are "in place".


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



2Dogs52 said:


> Hi JWPalmer,
> Thanks for your reply. I live near Grafton, Ohio. I update my info on location.
> At this point I'm not going to harvest the honey and the bees are going to get all of it back for winter.  I was wondering if you could send out a sample from each super and get it tested for the level of OA? That would make me feel better about giving it away if I knew the level of OA in the honey. I usually give most of my honey away and just don't want any issues with the OAV treatment being a problem with the honey. Do you know if the frames can be reused from the super of do I toss them? At this point I may be going back to teating next summer with MAQS.
> 
> Thanks again for the reply..


If you're going to send your honey to get tested for oxalic acid, you might as well send some tofu and almonds with that sample as well.

What you'll find is that the tofu and almonds have nearly 10X the amount of OA as that sample of honey. Probably 100X if it's only a small sample of honey.


----------



## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Psm and Gww,

I agree with both of you, but laws are not passed to keep honest people honest. They are passed so that those who stray too far past the line can be stopped and punished.
I guess if there were no rules against treating with OA while supers are in place then a person who does so would then be required to change their label to read, "Honey with Oxalic Acid added. Oh, well. :ws:

Alex


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

"to keep honest people honest". But let's be honest, there are not that many honest people. 

Honest: Only used as a clean up after another product.
Only used after mite count test.
Only used when brood is not present.
Only used by removing honey during winter broodless period.
Only used by removing honey from brood boxes as well as supers to prevent any honey being moved to "marketable honey " frames.


----------



## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

This whole issue needs to be resolved by beekeepers. If Oxalic Acid is going to be the new mainstay treatment, and not the latest fad in treatments, it is time to get our state and regional beekeeping associations active on this issue.

It is unclear what, if any, impact or contamination to honey occurs when oxalic acid is applied in a hive. The EPA’s approved methodology does not indicate that oxalic acid treatments with honey supers in place are harmful to honey, to bees or to humans who might consume it. The approved methodology only indicates that the EPA was not requested to approve, as a method of application, treatments with honey supers in place. Therefore, the EPA did not and that is the label and the law. *There is no question about the current status of the law.*

However, it is time to establish, through controlled, peer-reviewed, scientific study, whether the treatment of honey bee hives with oxalic acid has any negative effects on honey. This determination will serve beekeepers in a number of ways. 

In the event studies indicate a negative impact of oxalic acid treatments to honey, such a determination would serve to disabuse beekeepers of any notion that exposure of oxalic acid to honey is safe and to discourage beekeepers from any “off-label” uses of oxalic acid in honey bee hives.

In the event studies indicate the absence of any negative impacts of oxalic acid treatments to honey, beekeepers could begin the process of petitioning the EPA to amend its approved methodology to allow oxalic acid treatments with honey supers in place. 

There is no money to be made in the sale of OA to beekeepers. Therefore, no one is going to do our work for us.

We need to organize and collaborate through our local, state and regional associations to work with entomology departments and bee labs at universities to take on these studies and start gathering dependable data. Collectively, it would not be hard to raise enough money and bees to at least fund some of these basic studies.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



username00101 said:


> If you're going to send your honey to get tested for oxalic acid, you might as well send some tofu and almonds with that sample as well.
> 
> What you'll find is that the tofu and almonds have nearly 10X the amount of OA as that sample of honey. Probably 100X if it's only a small sample of honey.


These guys write:


> Test results reveal the oxalic acid concentration in honey from treated colonies was in the range of 22.8 - 37.7 mg / kg while results from untreated colonies showed a concentration from 20 - 400mg / kg. *Therefore, treated colonies can be seen to have a lower concentration of oxalic acid than untreated.* http://www.heilysertechnology.com/oxalic.html


 Needless to say, I find that reaching such a conclusion to be extremely dubious, even suspicious - but an interesting enough result for all that. 
LJ


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Nah, we wouldn't do *any* of those things! I use one vaporization as a mite counting device before I begin the OAV _treatments_.

I think the label may be changed or become common knowledge that it will not be enforced to the letter. At the present time that is not the case though.

I am not tempted since a spring treatment keeps mite levels well below common treatment levels. No fall flow to speak of so the supers are off plenty early to get the mites down for winter preps. Some peoples situations though could sorely tempt them otherwise. Following New Zealands beekeepers is an education for me. I expect much of the US has similar conditiions.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

gww posts this on another thread:

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?357629-Easy-OA-treatments&p=1753633#post1753633

may provide 'cover' for those employing the 'barrier' method.


psm1212 nails it in his post #103


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-heat-vaporization-and-other-methods-part-2-of-2-parts/

The above article by Randy Oliver reiterates that Europeans readily use OA Vaporization.

Apparently, OA vaporization is used "throughout the summer", which interpreted with common sense, is a statement that Europeans treat their hives with honey supers present throughout the entire summer with OAV.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

There have been studies posted in other threads on this site. Most show what lj posted. No increase above what is naturally in honey. Randy Oliver is studying the effect in his shop towel method which has the stuff in the hive for up to 60 days. He is petitioning for use with honey supers on and last time I ask, said the results were showing no increase in honey or wax.

Nobody is going to spend the money and time to get approval on something that is not being looked at by an enforcement agency when they have no avenue to make their money back.

At some point in time a person has to use some common sense on what is likely to happen in this situation. Some have did that already and like square peg said, given reasonable cover to others on something that there is enough evidence in studies to be a victimless crime even if committed. 

A similar thing would be along the lines of, you could use dish soap and baking soda as a cleaning agent and it would be legal but if your purpose was to kill ants and fungus, it would be illegal even if used in the same place.

You have a responsibility to sell a good product and due diligents is warranted but if the science is there that says this is naturally occurring level and this action will not cause this to be exceeded and that was the intent of the law to be there in the first place, prosecution would be highly unlikely.

The "would a reasonable person" be able to read the law in this fashion would be met in my mind.

I do know that oxilic was being used before there was a label and its approval was to bring in line what was already happening. When the question came down to it, it was, does the science say prosecute or approve and we all know what happened. It was not being prosecuted before the label but somebody jumping through hoops made that official. The incentive to jump through those hoops is not very high though due to the pain involved in dealing with the bureaucracy. I have never put anything in my hives but will not feel bad if I decide to use oxalic if I ever feel the need. It has been tested enough to give me comfort that I can live by the creed, cause no harm to others.
cheers
gww


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

gww said:


> There have been studies posted in other threads on this site. Most show what lj posted. No increase above what is naturally in honey. Randy Oliver is studying the effect in his shop towel method which has the stuff in the hive for up to 60 days. He is petitioning for use with honey supers on and last time I ask, said the results were showing no increase in honey or wax.
> 
> Nobody is going to spend the money and time to get approval on something that is not being looked at by an enforcement agency when they have no avenue to make their money back.
> 
> ...


It would not surprise me if OAV did not add any measurable OA to the honey. 

The previous thread on calculations represents a conservative MAXIMUM contamination of approximately 25mg OA /lb of honey. In which case, the worst case scenario is that a pound of honey has less OA than a mixed salad with almonds. A serving of tofu has 5-10X more OA contamination than 1lb of honey. Soy milk has 5-10X more OA than a pound of honey. etc etc etc.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

cumulative contamination with multiple treatments, toxic impurities in the wood bleach, ect ect ect.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

squarepeg said:


> toxic impurities in the wood bleach, ect ect ect.


This is an important point. The source of the OA is quite important. For example, I wouldn't treat my bees with any "wood bleach" sold on Amazon, or any "wood bleach" I could purchase at home depot etc, etc etc.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

It's the public perception.
Nobody is buying a $10 jar of honey because they need it.
Buy local, support the farmer, save the bees, a bit of mystique.

More fragile than we want to believe. Pretty simple step to protect everyone. I would feel a bit selfish to go over the line. Know the line is simply where I choose to draw it for myself.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Let me write the lead in to my expose':

*Toxic EPA regulated chemical found in Honey!* 

Wood bleach, that chemical used to strip your deck has been found in that "all natural" honey you have been feeding to your children. Local beekeeper secretly caught on film spraying it into his hives. The very same hives he has been selling contaminated honey from at local Farmer's Markets as all natural.

You take it from there explaining on the internet that is perfectly safe.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

*BEES DEAD!
No honey at the farmers market this year due to fears of helping the distressed bee population.

*Even thought an organic substance found in many of the foods eaten daily would have saved the bees, local bee keepers refused to use them causing massive die offs. Now for the treat of having the natural sweetness of honey grown locally, the price has went from $10 to $40. No bees will be visiting your gardens this year. Did this happen on purpose so that bee keepers could increase the price of what has been a treat to many. Is it fair to threaten our food sources in the name of price increases?

Foreign, chemical and syrup laced honey can still be found at your local big box store.

This has been a investigative service provided by your best source of local news.
Just saying
gww

Ps Salty, yours is better cause you had film footage.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

gotta wonder what the 3% inert ingredients are...

and what traces of toxins might remain from the manufacturing process.

not totally fair to compare this product to naturally occurring oxalic acid...


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Savogran states their product is 99.7% pure.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

3% came from this:

https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/091266-00001-20151013.pdf


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Square...
Oxalic being natural in honey, the same question could be ask of that process and if it is different when the bees do it or the same as what is manufactured as far as specific impurities are concerned. Is it a simple mathematical thing or a process thing? 

Since it is used in things like baking powder, I would think the concern of impurities during the manufacturing process and inert ingredients would have already been addressed if cause for concern. I do understand that there are several ways to manufacture oxalic.
Cheers
gww


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

back when i was a student in organic chemistry lab we used all kinds of solvents when 'manufacturing' and 'purifying' compounds.

some of them were quite toxic and working under vented hoods and with personal protective gear was required.

the small percentage of 'impurities' in a final product frequently contain traces of these solvents.

i don't know what chemicals are used when manufacturing the oxalic acid sold for this application, but it's conceivable that the removal of honey supers could have something to do with them.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Square..
From everything I can read with my education level being so low, it seems that the three percent would be made up of nitrate, calcium, sodium, sulfate and iron with calcium and iron being the hardest to remove.

I truly believe the removal of the supers has more to do with the authorization process and added cost and time then it does with the harm. You get what you ask and work for. 
cheers
gww

Ps There are higher purity rates with some of the wood bleach then there is with the stuff labeled for bees.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

yeah, the labeling directions to use early spring and late fall make it sound like they were giving oxalic acid the same consideration as the synthetic miticides. i.e. to be used before supering and after pulling supers for harvest..


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

squarepeg said:


> back when i was a student in organic chemistry lab we used all kinds of solvents when 'manufacturing' and 'purifying' compounds.
> 
> some of them were quite toxic and working under vented hoods and with personal protective gear was required.
> 
> ...


This is accurate.

One of the reasons I'd not recommend treating a hive with any "wood bleach" product. 

IDK how ppl feel comfortable buying a $9 pound of wood bleach and vaporizing that into beehives.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Square...
I think they were trying to do a good thing when they expedited the process for approval but that also meant picking the low hanging fruit.

Either way, it gave approval for what many were already doing. My opinion is that most of these rules are in place for the big guys (not that a hobby guy should use poor judgement). The big guys have more attention and therefor need more cover. It is the difference of me being able to bottle in my kitchen and sell out of my house and a volume guy having to dedicate space.

For the small guy, it is building trust with people that you see very often and so you have to build trust in those people and it is important to do things that do that. If I make somebody mad and they made me quit selling, I would not be ruined. On the other side of that, I have to personally face those that I deal with and so those relationships are important.
Don't do things that make you queasy cause then you will make others feel queasy about you.

I personally feel fine about the science of oxalic in hives in almost any fashion. I still will not use it till I am shown I have to cause of the way I am keeping bees. I would still buy from my neighbor who did use it before I took a chance on a box store honey if I wanted the properties that local honey offers. I would feel better with mistreated oxalic honey then some other approved chemicals used in hives. I am not too queasy of the other chemicals either but think oxalic has a wider margin for error of use with out risk then some others.
Cheers
gww

Ps, I was growing mushrooms in my basement and used a pressure cooker and still air box to help control impurities. You would be surprised at what you can grow in a petri dish with out trying. I was worried I was going to end up with anthrax. penicillin is easy.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Saltybee said:


> It's the public perception.
> Nobody is buying a $10 jar of honey because they need it.
> Buy local, support the farmer, save the bees, a bit of mystique.
> 
> More fragile than we want to believe. Pretty simple step to protect everyone. I would feel a bit selfish to go over the line. Know the line is simply where I choose to draw it for myself.


I'd say about 20% of my customers quiz me about treatments. When I say, "Yes I treat", they put down the jar until I tell them only with the honey supers off. That's what it's all about for me.

Alex


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

username00101 said:


> One of the reasons I'd not recommend treating a hive with any "wood bleach" product.
> 
> IDK how ppl feel comfortable buying a $9 pound of wood bleach and vaporizing that into beehives.


Do you really believe that Oxalic Acid Dihydrate with a fancy label is any different than commercial Wood Bleach ? Technical Grade is Technical Grade - if you want Analytical Grade you'd need to take out a second mortgage ...

There's a world of different between students learning to synthesise organic chemicals in a lab, and industrial operations where chemicals are produced in bulk quantities by professionals who know exactly what they're doing.

The impurities of Technical Grade Oxalic Acid Dihydrate are listed, and consist principally of heavy metals (not residual solvents), mainly Iron - as one would expect.
LJ


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

lj, is there a similar requirement in the uk regarding the removal of honey supers from the hive when applying oxalic acid?


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

little_john said:


> Do you really believe that Oxalic Acid Dihydrate with a fancy label is any different than commercial Wood Bleach ? Technical Grade is Technical Grade - if you want Analytical Grade you'd need to take out a second mortgage ...
> 
> There's a world of different between students learning to synthesise organic chemicals in a lab, and industrial operations where chemicals are produced in bulk quantities by professionals who know exactly what they're doing.
> 
> ...


This is interesting. 

The different OA options range in purity, and there's differences between manufacturers as well.

IMO this is the biggest issue with Oxalic acid - we don't have any "food grade" quality OA.

Just buckets of wood bleach, and products on Amazon with questionable origins.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

FWIW: Savogran, reports that it's wood bleach is 99.7% pure...


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

snl said:


> FWIW: Savogran, reports that it's wood bleach is 99.7% pure...


Yes, but what's the origin?

Is it some questionable country like China with zero quality control? Or is it made in a Laboratory in the US?

Remember, this is a bucket of wood bleach. No one in China (or US probably) is going to care if they drop a bunch of contaminants in the batch - it's going to get sprayed on a deck, who cares, right?

There's no inspections of the stuff, because it's not food or laboratory grade, just a bucket of wood bleach.

Question: isn't it worth spending the extra money on laboratory/analytical grade OA?

What's an extra $5-$10 to avoid Chinese industrial contaminants from that cheap bucket of wood bleach from Amazon or Home depot?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Not sure of origin of Savogran WB, but I’ll call and ask.
But what does it matter? 99.7% pure is 99.7% pure no matter.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Here's the assay from AVANTOR PERFORMANCE MATERIALS for Oxalic acid: https://us.vwr.com/store/product/4554338/oxalic-acid-dihydrate-99-5-102-5-crystals-baker-analyzed-acs-j-t-baker

Assay (HOCOCOOH�2H₂O) (by KMnO₄ titrn)	99.5 - 102.5 %
Insoluble Matter	≤ 0.005 %
Residue after Ignition	≤ 0.010 %
Chloride (Cl)	≤ 0.002 %
Sulfate (SO₄)	≤ 0.002 %
Calcium (Ca)(by FES)	≤ 0.001 %
Nitrogen Compounds (as N)	≤ 0.001 %
Substances Darkened by Hot H₂SO₄	Passes Test
Trace Impurities - ACS - Heavy Metals (as Pb)	≤ 5 ppm
Trace Impurities - Iron (Fe)	≤ 2.0 ppm


Please note that they don't provide a mass, so we don't really know the actual quantity. I'm going to go ahead and guess that the PPM are likely for the entire batch, say 500g?

If so, that would mean for a normal application the amount of the contaminants entering the hive is for example: 5ppm/500 or so, which is essentially undetectable. Just note that the 2ppm for Iron is high. The EPA maximum recommendation is 3ppm of Iron for drinking water.

Maybe someone with a good working knowledge could let us know.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

> IMO this is the biggest issue with Oxalic acid - we don't have any "food grade" quality OA.


I would say the food grade is kinda implied for a single chemical like oxalic. They put it in baking powder which goes in food. I think they put it in hot dogs as a thing to keep the hot dogs fresh longer.
Cheers
gww


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## ffrtsaxk (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: OAV with honey supers*



johno said:


> What I am trying to do is see what the difference is between spaced treatments year around that could be done as part of inspections normally carried out as against heavy summer treatments into fall once the mite load has been allowed to grow during the honey season. Now there is no point in having to remove and replace supers twice for treatments and as I use queen excluders anyhow using the shims which in fact are quite similar to a Cloake board all you are doing is preventing OAV and bees from crossing between the brood boxes and honey supers for 5 to 10 minutes while the treatment is taking place. As the majority of the mites will be on the nurse bees in the brood chamber I expect to keep the mite numbers low throughout the summer season. I will just have to wait and see.


How has this worked out for you? Did you have any problems with inserting your board?


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## twinoaks (Sep 1, 2018)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*

Wow. I really thought that was my new and novel idea. I also put a coating of Tanglefoot around the perimeter of the bottom box--keeps the ants at bay.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

*Re: Fall Extraction Blues*

Unfortunately the demand for Easy Vaps made sure that I had not much time in the bee yards this spring and summer, so that setup awaits another day.
Johno


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