# Paint the inside ?



## BeeGora (Oct 22, 2013)

I wouldn't paint the inside. Hopefully, the lumber isn't treated.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

There's a number of reasons not to paint the inside. firstly, bees are designed to live in a wooden house. Unpainted wood has absorbency and is easy for them to grip. If it's in the brood area they put their own treatment on it.

Paint may contain any number of chemicals that are not beneficial for the inside of a beehive.

Is the reason for possibly painting the inside because you are not sure what contaminants may be in the used lumber? Because if there are any they will slowly leach through the paint anyway.


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Use only interior paint for the inside, exterior for the outside. Just joking!


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

Thanks y'all , unpainted it is !


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

If the paint is latex based and is a major brand then paint. Painting the inside of the box has no effect on the bees. I would not use an oil based paint or one with heavy metals in the pigment list or mercury as an anti-mildew agent. Your screened bottom will take care any moisture.


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## Learner (Jan 17, 2015)

I'm a newbie so I'm going to ask a question rather than suggesting an answer:

Wouldn't painting the interior affect the moisture level in the hive?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Water vapor contacts a cold side wall, condenses and is absorbed into the wood, then is reabsorbed into the air and is carried out, or water condenses and runs down the side wall, out the open mesh bottom board or is reabsorbed into the air and is carried out. 

Which is worse? I don't know, all I know is I have tried both and can tell no difference. If we can get the argument going the way the cluster heats the hive did, we can read and post all night! Beemandan, Acebird, Rader, sqkcrk where are you?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The bees will propolize the inside and will do a better job if you don't paint it.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Yes, the bees will put much less propolis on the inside if it is painted.


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## Michael Johnston (Nov 25, 2007)

I've always heard that you're not supposed to paint the inside. In spite of this, I have done both and have seen the results. The boxes that have been painted on the inside look like they will last a lot longer than the unpainted boxes.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

One thing I should have said before, inside the joints should be painted before assembly, and also the top and bottom ledge of the box. Not doing that can shorten the life of the box.


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## PAHunter62 (Jan 26, 2011)

I watched a DIY building hive components series on YouTube a while back, where he suggested painting both the inside and outside of hive bodies. I only paint the outside and edges myself.

Around the 18:34 mark he talks about painting ...

http://youtu.be/vV-7kmLwQ00


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, you can paint the inside of the hive. There are the natural or organic
paint on the net too. It is better than not knowing what the woods have been
treated with before. I paint my hives with the linseed oil to waterproof them. It leaves
a shiny coat on the outside when dried.


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

I don't think the wood was treated , it was all either cabinet doors (plywood) or closet shelving . Some of the shelving was painted , and I'm not sure if the paint might have lead in it . Most of the wood that had any kind of finish , I put the finished side out . There are a couple of pieces that ended up with paint on the inside - those will have the paint sanded off so I won't have to worry about it . I painted the outside and top/bottom edges of all but one with 2 coats today , the last one will be done tomorrow if weather permits . I will leave the insides unpainted because , as AR Beekeeper said , they'll propolize more - and propolis is much more beneficial to the bees .


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## Kidbeeyoz (May 8, 2013)

This article by Marla Spivak is worth a read:- http://www.beelab.umn.edu/prod/grou...es/documents/article/cfans_article_435997.pdf


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I think it depends on your winter temperatures and humity. If below freezing, you may not have as issue.

We don't get below freezing and it is often wet, or foggy in the morning. So we have a lot of moisture in the hive.

Hives that are not painted on the inside get moldy and start rotting quickly. I use a clear varnish so I can see the rot spreading.

Boxes that I have painted on the inside as well take much longer before they start to deteriorate and there is little mould on the inside walls. As water condenses on the walls and runs out the bottom of the hive.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

AR Beekeeper said:


> Which is worse? I don't know, all I know is I have tried both and can tell no difference. If we can get the argument going the way the cluster heats the hive did, we can read and post all night!


 OK, I'll play. 

If the #1 goal is to preserve the _wood _as long as possible, then painting _both sides_ of the wood is likely to achieve that goal (compared to painting just the outside).

However, from my perspective, _wood _longevity is not the #1 goal. The _*bees *_longevity / fruitfulness / production is more important from my perspective, and if painting the inside reduces the application of propolis, then inside paint is contrary to my priorities. See the link in post #16.

:digging:

I should point out that our host, _Barry_, advocates painting the _inside _of hives with this comment from the free Beesource 'plans' that bear his name...


> Fill any holes and paint all surfaces, both inside and outside and top and bottom edges, with two coats of paint.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/10-frame-langstroth-barry-birkey/


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Rader; We know from reading previous posts on Beesource that the bees always know best, so if they use less propolis is it because the paint has done part of the job the propolis usually does? Does the sealing of the pores of the wood reduce the area that bacteria could live in? The smooth paint surface would be easier to apply the propolis to in a thin film that would still protect the bees, but require less effort and material than on a rough natural wood surface.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I should point out that our host, _Barry_, advocates painting the _inside _of hives with this comment from the free Beesource 'plans' that bear his name...


Yep, that's what I do! Like other people have posted, haven't seen any negative results of doing so. :banana:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> haven't seen any negative [HIGHLIGHT] affects [/HIGHLIGHT] of doing so. 

Have you see any negative _effects_, Barry?


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## FLBEEK (Jul 15, 2014)

Would this be universal or would it be contraindicated for some areas of the country?

Complete newb here, who is as a matter of fact painting new hive bodies right now on the outside. I am in Central Florida where it is humid year round. Even our "dry" part of the year is more humid that places out west and we might get a light freeze 1-3 nights out of the year.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Actually, what I do is prime all sides and edges of the wood with oil primer. I only put a finish coat on the outside.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

AR Beekeeper said:


> Rader; We know from reading previous posts on Beesource that the bees always know best


If that's the case....let them paint it themselves.....and if they choose not to....they obviously don't want it painted.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

As a painter apprentice I was taught that the paint film slowed the movement of water vapor in and out of the wood, this caused the wood to expand and contract slowly. The slow movement resulted in less warping, cracking or checking of the wood and less strain on the surface film of paint. Less strain on the paint film resulted in longer live of the paint before it cracked and peeled. For even movement of the water vapor out of the wood the paint should be the same thickness on all sides. 

Now we know why the bees add only a little propolis, they are allowing the moisture to evaporate evenly!

Boy, will I be glad when warm weather comes and I can get outside to work bees.


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

AR Beekeeper said:


> As a painter apprentice I was taught that the paint film slowed the movement of water vapor in and out of the wood, this caused the wood to expand and contract slowly. The slow movement resulted in less warping, cracking or checking of the wood and less strain on the surface film of paint. Less strain on the paint film resulted in longer live of the paint before it cracked and peeled. For even movement of the water vapor out of the wood the paint should be the same thickness on all sides.
> 
> Now we know why the bees add only a little propolis, they are allowing the moisture to evaporate evenly!
> 
> Boy, will I be glad when warm weather comes and I can get outside to work bees.


 Me too ! I'll be calling you for advice on timing , I pretty much know what to do , but not necessarily when ... at least I now have the equipment I'll need for a split ready to go . I do need to build a couple more medium boxes , I want to retire the first two I got or at least hold them for later use since they came with 9 frame spacer rails .


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>As a painter apprentice...

Maybe you can help me out. I have some old boxes (from the 70s) with oil enamel on them. (and a 100 year old porch with oil enamel on it as well...). What is the best thing to repaint them with? Oil Enamel? Or latex?


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> >As a painter apprentice...
> 
> Maybe you can help me out. I have some old boxes (from the 70s) with oil enamel on them. (and a 100 year old porch with oil enamel on it as well...).  What is the best thing to repaint them with? Oil Enamel? Or latex?


 From my home repair and handyman experience , i find that latex works just fine over enamel - if you degrease (I like TSP - the real stuff , not the new PC variety) and scuff/degloss it first . Gotta give the new paint a "tooth" to hang on to .


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I believe any paint finish that is an oil base bonds better with an undercoating that is also an oil base. The problem is finding an oil base, at least in this area, everything is latex base. When using a latex exterior grade paint for a finish coat it is best if you can prime with a latex exterior primer rather than an oil base primer. The two materials bond and have the same amount of flex, so there is less cracking and flaking. 

Like Terry C says, the gloss of the base coat should be dulled by a through sanding to help the new material "grip" the old. At one time there were products that could be added to the paint, or could be rubbed on the old gloss that would help the two to bond together. I have not found TSP in a long time, just substitutes that are not as strong acting. A repaint on old oil base paint calls for a lot of scraping, sanding and washing. The bad part is if the original paint is flaking or peeling, it usually continues to do so. Often the best approach with old painted bee equipment is to use it as is. Use it in out yards where the neighbors can't see it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Lowes carries TSP which appears to be the original formulation: 
http://www.lowes.com/pd_151379-91-10622_0__?productId=3014065

[hr] [/hr]

_AR Beekeeper_, would you care to comment on the value/durability of _acrylic latex_ vs _latex _paints?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

My time in the apprentice program was long, long ago. Many improvements have been made in the materials I used versus what they use now. My advice would be to use a major brand, and if you can afford it, use that brands middle or first line product. 

Most of the latex I used was an Alkyd resin, but as I said, it was a long time ago. It is hard to believe we learned the formulas for white lead/linseed oil exterior house paints and could buy the tubes of white lead in the paint stores and most of the interior wall paints was a flatting oil base for use on plaster walls. I did not start to use a lot of exterior latex until the mid to late 60s. I changed occupations in the early 70s so most products used now were not used then.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Michael Bush said:


> (and a 100 year old porch with oil enamel on it as well...). What is the best thing to repaint them with? Oil Enamel? Or latex?


First you'll have to have hazmat specialists remove it all as it contains lead. k:

Prep the porch and then prime it all with an oil primer. I'd use an acrylic top coat.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

AR Beekeeper said:


> If we can get the argument going the way the cluster heats the hive did, we can read and post all night! Beemandan, Acebird, Rader, sqkcrk where are you?


A friend of mine who runs thousands of hives paints all of his hives silver grey inside and out. And has been doing so for half a century without any problems. One's I have seen inside have propolis on the inside walls. He brands the inside wall too.

I don't know why he does what he does. But, if someone is going to steal someone else's hives they might paint the outside, but are they going to paint the inside? If a thief is that hard a worker he probably isn't a thief. Maybe.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I don't recall ever seeing any hive parts rot from the inside out. I've seen hive parts that were decades old and still serviceable with only the outside painted. Most that wind up scrapped, in my limited experience, are from physical damage...generally banged and beaten into submission. There are those who paint them inside and insist that they've never seen any ill effects and yet I can't think of reason to assume that it does the bees any good. For the life of me, I can't think of a single good reason to do it.



AR Beekeeper said:


> Beemandan, Acebird, Rader, sqkcrk where are you?


Is that better?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Me neither bad man. I have equipment that has never been painted. It works.

Some people paint the edges.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Some people paint the edges.


And then there's another whole thread on painting them with titebondIII. I can only scratch my head in wonder.


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## Matt F (Oct 7, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> A friend of mine who runs thousands of hives paints all of his hives silver grey inside and out. And has been doing so for half a century without any problems.


Pet peeve here - "foundationless" statement. Your friend may have substantially more problems due to the painted boxes, we just don't know. He might experience 10% greater winter losses than the same hives unpainted in the same conditions. Without running the two side-by-side there's no telling whether it's helping or hurting. It could be hurting but he overcomes the negative effect with careful management, who knows.

Now if he's running both painted and unpainted and can say that seasonal losses and spring buildup is different between the two, that's a different result.

Personally I think introducing the unknown chemicals of paint into the hive has a greater chance of negative impact than positive. Any benefit in box life is negligible.


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## KGB (Jun 25, 2014)

I wouldn't take the time to paint the inside, but I have boxes that the outside isn't painted because of time constraints.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Matt F said:


> Pet peeve here - "foundationless" statement. Your friend may have substantially more problems due to the painted boxes, we just don't know. He might experience 10% greater winter losses than the same hives unpainted in the same conditions. Without running the two side-by-side there's no telling whether it's helping or hurting. It could be hurting but he overcomes the negative effect with careful management, who knows.
> 
> Now if he's running both painted and unpainted and can say that seasonal losses and spring buildup is different between the two, that's a different result.
> 
> Personally I think introducing the unknown chemicals of paint into the hive has a greater chance of negative impact than positive. Any benefit in box life is negligible.


Yup, could be. On the other hand. Nothing succeeds like success. Don't tell those that are doing it that it can't be done. And, I don't have a dog in this fight.

See my tag line.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> See my tag line.


Dogs, pigs, horses ..... what about _sacred cows_?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Mark, you would have made a great Rhett Butler, "Frankly my Dear, I don't give a ****."

Actually, in the question of paint inside or not, there are no studies that I know of that proves one side or the other. We have the recommendation from the 1800s to not paint, made in a time period of white lead/linseed oil base paint that would create a surface that would "chalk" and make a fine dust that probably get into the honey, or we have beekeeper observations that says using modern formulation of paint inside is not a problem and increases box life. A well planned study, properly done, then repeated, and reaching the same result would be nice. 

One of the nice things about beekeeping is that the bees and the equipment belong to each of us and we can do as we please with them. I don't worry about making a living with bees so I can manage what I have just for the fun of it. If I want to paint, I paint. If I want to dip, I dip. If I want foundation, or foundationless, that is what I do. I have the years of experience to know if a colony is doing well or if it is in distress, and how to help the bees do what they want to do. I gained that experience by making mistakes, most of them multiple times, and then having to correct those mistakes and live with the results.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Matt F said:


> Pet peeve here - "foundationless" statement.


Here are a couple more from this very thread for you.



AR Beekeeper said:


> Painting the inside of the box has no effect on the bees.





Barry said:


> Like other people have posted, haven't seen any negative results of doing so.


There you go AR Beekeeper....this ought to get a brawl going.....and you can be right in the middle of it!


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Just be advised I am an early to bed, early to rise type. Many post after 8:30 pm will have to wait to be answered.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

It won't keep me up at night either.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Dogs, pigs, horses ..... what about _sacred cows_?


Mmmmmm, Barbecue.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

AR Beekeeper said:


> Mark, you would have made a great Rhett Butler, "Frankly my Dear, I don't give a ****."
> 
> Actually, in the question of paint inside or not, there are no studies that I know of that proves one side or the other. We have the recommendation from the 1800s to not paint, made in a time period of white lead/linseed oil base paint


Well Scarlett, I do believe you are on to something.

I would have thought that white wash would have been more readily available and affordable mid19th Century. Thus white being the traditional color of painted beehives. I wonder what PLB would find for us about that, or Graham?

Looking into it, the 19th century was a colorful era when it comes to house paints.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I don't know about the cost of whitewash vs white paint, but here is an 1889 passage in _The Beekeepers Review_ that says whitewash allows the evaporation of moisture from the wood better than paint, while still achieving protection from the sun:

https://books.google.com/books?id=I...wBzgK#v=onepage&q=whitewash bee hives&f=false
(see page 77, right column, about 1/3 down the page)


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## georgiabees (Feb 2, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Yup, could be. On the other hand. Nothing succeeds like success. Don't tell those that are doing it that it can't be done. And, I don't have a dog in this fight.
> 
> See my tag line.


A Complicated Response
I've been painting my inside home house walls for years and have lived longer than I expected.

As for my bee hives I do it ALL
All my boxes are copper dipped so i paint only the inside short end walls and frame rests where most bee frame travel happens.
I do not paint side walls or edges.

AND I recently started "GORILLA" Gluing only outside end joints before painting.

AND I only magic marker brand only the inside.

Don't have a dog but I like Cat Fights.










John Pluta http://GeorgiaBees.blogspot.com NO Pink Hives Here


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

georgiabees said:


> All my boxes are copper dipped


http://www.extension.org/pages/2920...can-bee-research-conference-2010#.VMKOlel0wb1

Scroll down...look at abstract number six.
In hives with one interior surface (bottom board only) treated with copper naphthenate showed higher incidence of queen supercedures, lower brood viability and homing ability. Imagine how much worse they might fare if every surface of the hive interior was treated. 
Maybe the reason you don't have a dog in this fight is your 'dogs' have a problem finding their way home.


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## georgiabees (Feb 2, 2010)

beemandan said:


> http://www.extension.org/pages/2920...can-bee-research-conference-2010#.VMKOlel0wb1
> 
> Scroll down...look at abstract number six.
> In hives with one interior surface (bottom board only) treated with copper naphthenate showed higher incidence of queen supercedures, lower brood viability and homing ability. Imagine how much worse they might fare if every surface of the hive interior was treated.
> Maybe the reason you don't have a dog in this fight is your 'dogs' have a problem finding their way home.


SCROLL DOWN Do your yearly increase look like this?








Just went out and looked,
Yep They all found their way home and brought new friends to show off their boxes








It works very well for me and MANY other large commercial southern bekeeps Numbers don't lie.

John Pluta http://GeorgiaBees.blogspot.com HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY Bees


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Let's see....data collected from a controlled study....or a beekeeper's opinion.
I'm just so undecided


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I will have to be the Devil's Advocate on this one. I have used copper naphthenate for 10 or 12 years and have not seen any of those symptoms. The dip is applied differently than that in the study, I dip in October using a mineral spirit based product and put the boxes in use the next spring. I would really like to see that study done again using the methods used by beekeepers and not as an afterthought addition to a study about to be done.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

The numbers from this study don't paint (pun intended) a catastrophic picture. They were looking the sub lethal effects of various compounds. Measurable effects though. Each building upon any others. Evidence that these compounds are not benign in the hive. If, in spite of that, you feel the need to dip your hive equipment in copper naphthenate...using whatever method you choose......by all means do so.
For the life of me, I still cannot fathom why anyone would.


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## georgiabees (Feb 2, 2010)

beemandan said:


> The numbers from this study don't paint (pun intended) a catastrophic picture. They were looking the sub lethal effects of various compounds. Measurable effects though. Each building upon any others. Evidence that these compounds are not benign in the hive. If, in spite of that, you feel the need to dip your hive equipment in copper naphthenate...using whatever method you choose......by all means do so.
> For the life of me, I still cannot fathom why anyone would.


BECAUSE
Instead of building "REPLACEMENT" bee boxes time can BEE spent on IPM PEST management a more pressing concern. 
ALSO very little robbing problems from strong solid 10+ year old treated boxes compared to see thru "HOLY" weather ravaged boxes.
Passage thru state inspections faster due to older respectable looking equipment.
And like AR beekeeper says I also do 4-6 months in advance then air dry THEN like the original thread paint the heavily traveled end insides "Just in case caution"
Pollination Bees don't have time to read studies, on to the next crop

John Pluta http://GeorgiaBees.blogspot.com Common Sense Street Smart Beats Book Taught Every-time


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

georgiabees......those are some of the most ridiculous assumptions I've ever read.
Having said that.....they're your bees and your hives....dunk 'em in whatever you choose. Ignore the studies to your heart's content.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Hey, it's still going strong!! :thumbsup:

I concede, best to be totally natural and leave it raw. Just like the raw sewage bees love to suck on out back where the septic field leaks.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Barry said:


> Hey, it's still going strong!! :thumbsup:
> 
> I concede, best to be totally natural and leave it raw. Just like the raw sewage bees love to suck on out back where the septic field leaks.


Talk about probiotics!


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Barry said:


> Just like the raw sewage bees love to suck on out back where the septic field leaks.


As an environmentally conscious fellow I can't believe you allow your septic fields to leak. For shame!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Actually Dan, that took place at my last house. I'm on city sewer now. But that yard is still within flying distance so I probably still get the benefit of it!


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I have always felt that painting the inside of the boxes was a waste of time -- the bees ALWAYS coat the entire inside of the hive with propolis, and the older the equipment is, the thicker the coating. Better than paint and self-renewing so long as it's in continuous use. this is, in fact, one of the reasons you SHOULD paint the outside, wood with a fairly moisture impervious layer on the inside and unprotected on the outside is going to acquire serious moisture gradients inside the wood as the weather changes, and large moisture gradients are accompanied by large changes in the volume of the wood. Think cracks and checks, warps, and splitting through the finger joints or around fasteners.

Anything that allows water into cracks or into the finger joints is going to encourage fungal growth and consequent rotting of the boxes.

So long as what you paint with doesn't release toxic materials that you don't want in the bees or honey, painting isn't going to do anything the propolis doesn't, but that's the point -- let the bees paint the insides, since they are going to anyway.

Peter


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