# American Foulbrood Equipment Loss Fund



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

We have been discussing the practice of some municipalities maintaining a program to replace equipment burned due to losses from AFB in another thread.

Would such a program benefit beekeepers on a wide scale? Would it be beneficial to individuals? How could such a program be started even if not legislated? How could it be managed? What would the fees/benefits be? What other issues could arise? How could such a program be introduced into legislation?


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

I don't mean to be disrespectful in anyway. Everyone has a right to an opinion and that's how our government is setup to work.

I'm not for any legislation that puts this in the hands of any government, they are too busy to get everything done already. 

Would such a program benefit beekeepers on a wide scale? They would take from others to give to others perhaps not even in the same geographic region.

Would it be beneficial to individuals? Not me because it's not a problem for me as of yet or maybe never. 

How could such a program be started even if not legislated? Private insuarance paid 100% by only the people who want to use it. No idea if private insurance would consider it.

How could it be managed? By adding government employees I'm sure.

What would the fees/benefits be? 50% higher than the actual money paid out for program overhead. If it is optional then perhaps the folks that want to participate could submit what benefit they expect and then the fees could be set accordingly.

What other issues could arise? Theft of funds, under funding, fraudulant claims, inspection needs to verify ect...

How could such a program be introduced into legislation? It should not be introduced because it is not something the government has any business nor responsibility in handling.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

There's an anti-government individualist approach, but what are some other options? I have a more collectivist viewpoint.

I believe government can have a beneficial effect on the general welfare of the people. Providing a social safety net is one of those effects. The idea of a way to reimburse a beekeeper for losses to a virulent disease seems to me to be a beneficial program for all beekeepers. It provides an incentive to control the disease by removing the penalty of the disease. Because the penalty of the disease can be so harsh, the disease may not be properly controlled due to the fact that some (it only takes a few) will not want to destroy their colonies. It's kind of similar to killing and burning cattle with mad cow disease.

The truth is, if government doesn't do it, it won't get done. In the same way, universal healthcare cannot be achieved without a mandate. For the program to work, everybody needs to be on it. To get everybody on the program requires a mandate. A mandate requires legislation.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't see this being anything I could support here in NY, at this time. Tho, I imagine I could be convinced otherwise. Apparently it works in other States.

I do know, at one time, the USDA had an indemnity program to pay bkprs for nonproductive cols because of drought here in NY. An unscrupulous bkpr brought his cols up to NY from FL in Sept, supered them up and put in a claim. Took the USDA Rep. and showed him that his bees didn't make any honey. And he was paid. So, there can always be someone that takes advantage.


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

It is my understanding that the program rrussell described could be run by beekeepers without government involvement. The state beekeeping organization (not a government entity) could solicit donations and set up the fund to compensate for AFB losses. The beekeepers association could also set up and administer the inspection program to verify AFB before paying for losses. I think such a program could work if enough people are resolved to make it happen.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Are you a member of the State Bkping Organization? Aka ESHPA.

Oh, yeah, you are. I hope you get really involved this year. We need some new blood. Even if it comes from an "Old Guy". Heh, heh.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Way to go Solomon, but as you can see scepticism exist everywhere. Why NYS, why not the whole USA? Personally I feel if you want to protect all of the honey industry it has to be country wide. If you want to believe in people looking out for others, doing the right thing, you are a hopeless dreamer. It is not going to happen in this day and age.
You must understand that unless the problem is a crisis you can't get support. Wait for the crisis then you will have all kinds of support.



> The state beekeeping organization (not a government entity) could solicit donations and set up the fund to compensate for AFB losses. The beekeepers association could also set up and administer the inspection program to verify AFB before paying for losses.


Whether it is a government or a huge organization it will be a bureaucracy no matter what. What has to happen is every one has to be on board otherwise you have a weak link, like you have now. It is all going to boil down to faith in a bureaucracy, what ever that is.

As I said in the other discussion, I think it is a great idea.


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## Riverratbees (Feb 10, 2010)

As a nonprofit organization. Or find one that will sponsor your idea. That would be the best way to fight the bureaucracy.


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

The Empire State Honey Producers Association IS a nonprofit organization. Participation in such a program would of course be voluntary. It would be like a nonprofit mutual insurance program. It is at least worth thinking about.


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## Riverratbees (Feb 10, 2010)

Hey if you can get it off the ground and running I think it is a great idea.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JohnAllen said:


> The Empire State Honey Producers Association IS a nonprofit organization. Participation in such a program would of course be voluntary. It would be like a nonprofit mutual insurance program. It is at least worth thinking about.


If you will come to the meeting in Syracuse in November, we can present the idea to the General Membership at the Membership Mtng. I would be glad to do that w/ you and see where it leads.


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

I think it is a wonderful idea other than any involvement by any government to include local. I could give you several examples of government mandated programs, be it social welfare or whatever, that are contributing to our economic demise. It has to stop somewhere. 

In the perfect world there are a lot of ideas that could benefit society as a whole. Being an active member of local and nationwide organizations I frequently support whatever we can reasonably do for those less fortunate as long as it does not cause harm to myself or family (Rotary International and the Masonic Fraternity).

If the beekeeper next door allows AFB to spread because he/she is greedy and will not take proper action, such as destroying colonies then my “want to help” ends and I support harsh penalty because they earned harsh penalty. If a government plans to give them money they took from me involuntarily because they are greedy and do not destroy their colonies then it seems proper for me to be upset with the idea. I feel sorry for the people who are harmed because anyone would knowingly caused harm by spreading AFB to them. Filling that loss is a good place for private insurance to take a role. 

I would suggest a private or not for profit approach if AFB is an issue. If such a program is not supported by private funding then I do not think it would be proper, in this case, to pressure legislators into supporting an idea that can't even get local funding to make it work. 

I appreciate the chance to add my too cents.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why NYS, why not the whole USA? 

That would be the 10th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution...


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, if some does come up with a local program in NYS, I hope that they also make sure that the replacement equipment and bees are also of local origin.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Details would have to be worked out. Of course.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

I don't see it working in N.Y. as apiaries aren't registered any more.
from eshpa fall newsletter
The President’s Corner, Fall 2010
Greetings,
I am pleased to announce that the NY Assembly bill A.9231, has been sign by the Governor on June 15, 2010. This bill repeals the mandatory registration of bee yards. Thanks to all who have worked tirelessly to get this law repealed.

I would go for anything that is voluntarily and doesn't involve the government other wise I expect I would be one of those weak links mentioned above.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't know why the yards would have to be registered w/ NYS. Which most yds in NY are. Tho there are lots that aren't. The participants would establish ground rules when and if it is mutually beneficial.

I could see this working like an insurance policy.

But, I see the independent nature of bkprs, especially NY bkprs, being the problem. A number of years ago a guy I know made a proposal, at he ESHPA General Mtng, to get together a Fund to promote NY Honey. He suggested a 5 cent/lb of honey produced donation by the bkprs. No one voted. He lowered it to 3 cents. No one voted to support the idea. He lowered it to 1 cent. No one voted to support it. No one even had a counter offer or any other self promoting suggestions. He no longer attends ESHPA Mtngs.

It could work. It's probably worth kicking around. I'm not going to hold my breath. You should see what troubles are afoot w/ proposed Legislation on Honey Standard of Identity in NY. More of the same.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> If the beekeeper next door allows AFB to spread because he/she is greedy and will not take proper action, such as destroying colonies then my “want to help” ends and I support harsh penalty because they earned harsh penalty.


If your kid gets the measles and he/she passes it on to someone else in the school system who passes it on to an expectant mother and the baby gets sick or dies, should we get a rope and hang you at sunrise?

Be careful for what you wish for when transfer of disease is concerned.

I don't believe most people if not all would knowingly propagate AFB if they knew what it was and what it could impact. Education is as much a key to controlling AFB as burning a hive when it is found.

So now I will have to ask rrussel how they avoided the pitfalls in their program.

How did you keep beeks from using the program just to replace old equipment?
How do you entice everyone to take part in the program so you don't have a weak link?
If someone was not part of the program and you found out about an outbreak in their yard what is the course of action?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I would love to see someone accurately prove the AFB transfer from one apiary to another by the bees themselves. Not saying that it doesn't happen. Just want to see the evidence.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

MDS said:


> If the beekeeper next door allows AFB to spread because he/she is greedy and will not take proper action, such as destroying colonies then my “want to help” ends and I support harsh penalty because they earned harsh penalty. If a government plans to give them money they took from me involuntarily because they are greedy and do not destroy their colonies then it seems proper for me to be upset with the idea. I feel sorry for the people who are harmed because anyone would knowingly caused harm by spreading AFB to them. Filling that loss is a good place for private insurance to take a role.
> 
> I appreciate the chance to add my too cents.


Greed? Greedy? What does that have to do w/ anything real? I can see "negligent", "ignorant" or "lazy", but greedy? I don't see the connection between being greedy and having a disease.


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

Acebird said:


> If your kid gets the measles and he/she passes it on to someone else in the school system who passes it on to an expectant mother and the baby gets sick or dies, should we get a rope and hang you at sunrise?


Sir, you are not using a reasonable comparison. 

I may someday learn not to get involved in politics. I don't support any concept that includes me doing the right thing and then someone else not, only to have me paying for someone elses wrong doing. I served in the military for 6 years, and have been a cop for 26 and so my views may be different than main-stream. I've witnessed much worse than AFB and so I may minimilize the issue. I hope not to get the reputation of being an uncooperative person especially within this wonderfull world of beekeeping. 

By the way Polio is a terrable condiction. Rotary has stopped it in all but three countries. I'm gald to have served in Rotary. So please do not challange my respect for humanity.


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Greed? Greedy? What does that have to do w/ anything real? I can see "negligent", "ignorant" or "lazy", but greedy? I don't see the connection between being greedy and having a disease.


First, the resources to prove that someone knew they had AFB and knowingly transferred would most likely not be doable. Secondly it most likely would be a civil matter in court. My use of the word “greedy” implied that anyone who would knowingly transfers AFB is doing so for personal gain and should, if discovered, be given harsh penalty.

I understand thinking outside the box for a solution to replace colonies lost by those guilty of no wrong doing. I just do not support an active role by government.

I apprecite those that are concerned with the spread of AFB and thank you for taking the time out of your busy lives to consider the options. I appreciate that this is important to you and respect your opinion always.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Mark, the spread from one apiary to another is generally done through the robbing of deadout cols by swarms (ferals or whatever is around)... this is where the general rule of thumb of giving other beeks space came to be so helpful... by keeping yards spread out, we were able to ensure that one Apiary was not robbing deadouts from another... but when wild cols rob deadouts that are infected, become infected themselves, then are robbed out by kept cols from another apiary, there is still a way for the disease to spread, but a much less likely scenario.

The thing to keep in mind about an afb reimbursement fund, is that there are few cases, thus it doesn't have to be a big operation... in the beginning, there will be more activity as the less than honest "test the waters" to see if they can capitalize from the efforts of others, and then there will be some that cry wolf simply because the instruction will have them looking very closely at every cell... so the fund will need to be started with a stronger amount of monetary support, then after a few years, the need will dwindle from the less than honest folks seeing that there is nothing to gain, the overly cautious learning that not every dead larvae is afb, and the actual diseased cols being destroyed routinely will of course lower the number of diseased cols period...

Let's just say a five dollar increase is added to annual dues for association membership... with 1,000 members, that's $5,000 dollars in the fund for the first year... now let's say that there are 20 cases during the first year... with a small "inspection reimbursement pay" to cover the fuel cost of those that are on the list to provide inspection for suspect cols (let's say $25.00) and a small cash value of the equipment that can be replaced, let's say $125.00... the program can operate quite well with this small budget. 

Sorry, I am swamped this morning, or I would give much more detail, but I will go ahead and say that the fund can research average case loads across its area (or state) within the past 5-10 years and find the average number of incidences so it can be better prepared... it may also pre-purchase x# of deeps, supers, frames, and foundation from whichever supplier is chosen (I would suggest either a rotation, in-state suppliers, or lowest price situation for fairness)... this way the equipment is on hand and this would actually save the fund a bit of money as opposed to simply cutting checks for damages... also, you may find that many suppliers will even donate equipment to the funds directly in an effort to show their support. 

The fund will basically need to be prepared to pay for optional courses in identification and proper handling and disposal of afb cols, as well as a brief fire safety instructional... this can be done by experienced volunteers, and just about any fire dept would happily step in to help cover the safety issues... so the cost involved would mostly be for the location, and methods used to encourage members to come, ie.. lunch, certificates, etc...

Again, it can be done in a self-policed manner and it can not only be a huge barrier against the spread of afb, but can also bring beeks together and promote unity.

Hope this helps.


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

rrussell. Thank you for the post. I would agree to a small fee for association dues for AFB or any other similar concern. I think it is worth the money to combat the problem especially since I've never had the issue but remain concerned. I just want the funds to stay within my state and not force them upon others. I agree the funding would be less and there is a chance my donation would be meaningless if the fund was under funded because it is local. I'd take my chances. Hence such an undertaking might be best at the state association level.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> the overly cautious learning that not every dead larvae is afb,


Thanks for taking the time rrussell.
I have a question for you or any other organization interested in controlling this desease.

Does the organization offer a first year beek or one still fumbling a one on one inspection of their hive so they can learn how to do it right and be confident that they will not damage the hive or miss something important? To the best of my knowledge we don't have such a program in our local club. It would be a great help to new beeks if we did.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...i'm skeptical. first of all, there are a number of operations (of all sizes) that use antibiotics 2X a year to "prevent" AFB....those that know first hand that they will come down with AFB if they stop (meaning, they have tried not using antibiotics and they came down with AFB). this kind of supressed infection is very dangerous (breeds resistance, prone to being robbed), is part of many migratory operations (which move from state to state). i can't see it as "right" to pay off these operations if they decide to stop treating (due to wanting to replace equipment, or due to an unproductive season), or for operations contamintated by these operations.

secondly, the greatest "reward" goes to those who are most neglegent....the more weeks or years one lets the problem fester (treated or not), the greater the reward from such a program.

imho, if we want to control afb on any scale, the use of antibiotics has to be discontinued (both officially and unoffically) so that we can get rid of the festering infections that drive across the country every year. without this step, such a program will become a way to dispose of contaminated equipment by those that are aware of the problem they have, and have no will to fix it with their own resources. they can afford feed by the truckload, they can afford 18 wheelers to move their bees across the country, but they can't keep healthy bees without antibiotics  ....an indemnity program will give them financial incentive to keep doing what they are doing.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Does the organization offer a first year beek or one still fumbling a one on one inspection of their hive so they can learn how to do it right and be confident that they will not damage the hive or miss something important? To the best of my knowledge we don't have such a program in our local club. It would be a great help to new beeks if we did.


I don't know anything about your club, but I will offer this.

There are an increasing number of new beekeepers (bee school is at an all time high in most Massachusetts counties). There is some subset that read a lot, come to outdoor meetings, offer to "help" more experienced beekeepers in order to learn (most such help is not much help, but at least they are putting themselves out in order to learn).

On the other hand, there are some that want nothing except the very basics...until they think they have a problem. Instead of finding time to go on inspections with others or even coming to organized meetings, they call in a panic, and (sometimes in a demanding tone), want an experienced beekeeper to come to their apiary and help them. Such expectations get old fast. If you club does not have outdoor meetings with bees where proper inspection technique is taught, then you should make that happen. If there is not a list of experienced beekeepers who are willing to show their operations and share what they do with new beekeeper, start a list.

I volunteer time and equipment to our county club (I attend most meetings, most board meetings, and I bring professional sound equipment to meetings that require it). The last thing I want to hear is someone demanding that I help them in their own apiary (with the 2 packages they installed without attending bee school or even reading a book). There is so much more to learn by going to a larger yard and seeing 5 or 6 colonies that are being properly managed. most of all, i'm motivated to help someone that is motivated to help themselves.

It is important for clubs to encourage new beekeepers and to support them...but not everyone should become a beekeeper.

AFB is a tough one. I wouldn't trust anyone to identify it if they have not seen it. Many of our experienced beekeepers in Massachusetts have never seen it.

deknow


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

You make some excellent points deknow. 

Perhaps it would be better if beeks put aside some money every year to cover losses. 

I can only speak from my own experience, but a flat rate wouldn't work for any of the situations. A flat rate for a fee doesn't make sense when one BK has 1 hive, and another has 1000. And it doesn't make sense for a payout when one hive is a plywood nuc ($15) and mine are housed in 5 deeps ($175).

I don't treat for anything, so when I say my bees don't have AFB, I know for a fact they don't. There's nothing to suppress it.

Lots of questions still, good discussion.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> Perhaps it would be better if beeks put aside some money every year to cover losses.


I agree. I believe that bkprs should self insure against ALL losses. I have never had anyone, except my customers, pay me to keep bees or pay for any of my losses. Those due to pests or diseases or business. Never had a grant either.

Not braggin'. Just stating facts. We should all be responsible for ourselves and responsible bkprs.

People wanting to join our ranks should get some education and then buy bees. Not the other way around. There are plenty of schools, books, clubs and even the internet for correspondence course education. No reason why, other than hands on experience, a newbee should know something about beekeeping before buying bees.

Sorry for the rant.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Deknow, I can see your concern... just limit the amount of cols that can be reimbursable within one operation within a years time... let's say 5 cols per operations, per year... that way it will not become an equipment exchange program, but instead it will remain a means to protect bee keepers, while instructing, and removing threats for the future... 

Migratory operations could indeed bring cases in to the state with them, but at the same time, people purchasing nucs, packages, or hives that are not treated or inspected can also be bringing in issues, so its a trade off... BUT with a limit on the number of cols that can be reimbursable, the incentive remains on the side of caution and proper care... if someone has two hundred cols, and starts to see signs in one, having this program may help by giving them the incentive to go ahead and burn that colony and start inspecting all of the others, rather than treating them all to try to suppress the outbreak... in all hopes, it is simply a means to a "slowly but surely" approach that could help greatly by minimizing the threats and thus lowering the use of antibiotics, maybe even eliminating them completely one day... 

Acebird... you need to get with a commercial or sideliner, or heck even a few other hobbiests for that matter... just ask other members of the forum to direct you to someone close to your area... you just need a little hands on time...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Mark, couldn't agree more, but in this case I have to go back to the old "in a perfect world" pitch... it SHOULD be that way, but it just isn't today... so this type of program is just a safety net that catches those that need it... may not seem fair to replace someone's losses when they could have simply done a bit more to prevent it, but in the long run, taking the high road just helps everyone that does work hard to keep clear of troubles... and if some bozo moves a hive a few blocks away from one of your yards, never says anything, and you never see it, then if dies of afb, and your girls rob out the equipment, this program would help you too... maybe not in the same scale as it would for the guy with 5 hives in his back yard, but its better than nothing... and keep in mind, the only point of offering to reimburse or replace anything, is to promote education, inspection, and corrective action to control a serious disease.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> People wanting to join our ranks should get some education and then buy bees. Not the other way around.


Mark, how is the preaching working so far? Are you reaching everyone you need to or are you pushing them away with your high and mighty.



> Acebird... you need to get with a commercial or sideliner,


After deknow fore warned me about the selfish practices of commercial beeks I think I am going to stand clear of them.
Our club does have schooling, recommend books, field outings but not a live inspection where you can learn anything with thirty people standing around a hive agitating all the bees.



> AFB is a tough one. I wouldn't trust anyone to identify it if they have not seen it. Many of our experienced beekeepers in Massachusetts have never seen it.


I think you are seeing my point. You don't trust anyone to identify an issue but you are insisting on a newbee do an inspection anyway. For what? So they can tell you they don't have AFB even if they can't recognize it?

You can't even mention your desire to keep bees without someone telling you how important it is to know about AFB and the need to do inspections. We all take chances driving over bridges practically every day because we EXPECT people with the right knowledge are inspecting those bridges to keep us safe.

If you want people to do the right thing you have to find a way to pass on that knowledge and expertise without threatening what they are doing. And for some, not all, you may have to put in more effort than they do.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Acebird said:


> After deknow fore warned me about the selfish practices of commercial beeks I think I am going to stand clear of them.
> 
> Dean, you want to take a shot at this one? It seems that this new comer has interpreted your thoughts as just plain prejudice... I dont think that is the case, but newbees without an understanding of the true innerworkings of the industry take things quite literally when they hear things like "Commercials" instead of the particular operation that is being discussed...


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Mark, how is the preaching working so far? Are you reaching everyone you need to or are you pushing them away with your high and mighty.


Mark has a legitimate concern here...one that I share. If we (those involved in beekeeper education) don't disucss these things, they will never change. I'd encourage a newbee to attend bee school, read some books, and spend some time with a bekeper the year before they start. You don't have to agree.



> After deknow fore warned me about the selfish practices of commercial beeks I think I am going to stand clear of them.


...there are all kinds of "selfish practices"...some are practiced by some commercial beekeepers. On the other hand, spreading poorly considered opinions in order to prompt others to correct you when you state repeatedly that you can learn everything you need to learn this way without cracking a book looks pretty selfish from here.
a few years ago, we had a hobbiest move some sick hives to a "hospital yard" (meaning it was away from his other colonies....with no consideration as to what hives it might be near). these hives had poorly supressed AFB, EFB, chalkbrood, wax moths, and probably every other disease you can imagine. they were on rotting pallets with no bottom board at all (ripe for robbing) and almost falling over, and were being "treated" with candy canes...all this while the owner was out of the country for a few months. this does not mean that all hobbiests are so irresponsible....nor do the facts about what some commercial beekeepers do mean that they are all bad...they are not, and without a doubt, the best beekeepers i know are commercial.



> Our club does have schooling, recommend books, field outings but not a live inspection where you can learn anything with thirty people standing around a hive agitating all the bees.


well, seems like you have been offered a number of valuable resources by your club, and you seem not to want to take advantage of any of them. perhaps you would get more help if you took the initiative to help yourself?



> I think you are seeing my point. You don't trust anyone to identify an issue but you are insisting on a newbee do an inspection anyway. For what? So they can tell you they don't have AFB even if they can't recognize it?


...AFB is only one reason to do an inspection, and at least in our area, it is rare to find it. more importnat is to make sure your new bees are progressing properly. poor queens with packages are not rare, and letting such a situation go too long will lead to failure.


> You can't even mention your desire to keep bees without someone telling you how important it is to know about AFB and the need to do inspections. We all take chances driving over bridges practically every day because we EXPECT people with the right knowledge are inspecting those bridges to keep us safe.


well, AFB will kill your hive, and if unchecked, will affect other hives in the area (be they yours, someone elses, or feral). no other bee disease will do this, no other bee disease warants the caution that AFB does.
i'm not sure what your point about bridges is. ...but only a small percentage of our driving is done over bridges (and an even smaller percentage of traffic fatalities are caused by faulty bridges). i'm more concerned that the person driving in front of me, next to me, behind me, and towards me are qualified to drive cars....meaning they know how to read signs, they know how the gas and brake operates, and that they can see and hear properly (my wife had an uncle that used to drive an RV with a piece of tape on the window to "line up with the center line on the road" and a wife to tell him when to stop and when to turn.....not good). people have to demonstrate at least a rudimentary ability to do all of these things in order to have a license to drive without supervision. the person that doesn't qualify with the above is a danger on the road, as is a new beekeeper that won't take some initiative to learn the craft and the pitfalls.



> If you want people to do the right thing you have to find a way to pass on that knowledge and expertise without threatening what they are doing. And for some, not all, you may have to put in more effort than they do.


yes, you have demonstrated that beautifully...although i'm not sure that is a distinction to be proud of.

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Mark, how is the preaching working so far? Are you reaching everyone you need to or are you pushing them away with your high and mighty.


I don't mind being charactertized that way too much. I am proud of what I am, what I have accomplished and what I have learned, including the decades that I have spent learning what I have, while honing my skills. You should feel priviledged that I would take any amount of time sharing w/ you what I know.

If anything I say discourages a person from becoming a bkpr, then they weren't really going to become a bkpr anyway.

What do you do for a living, Acebird? Do you have a job w/ a title? How long did you spend learning how to do what you do? Let's say your are a Deisel Mechanic. How would you feel if someone went out and bought a bunch of tools and called themself a Diesel Mechanic and talked to people about what was wrong w/ their Diesel engines, but had never even spent the time to get the Certification?

My patience for Faux-bkprs is pretty thin. Wannabees and beehavers that call themselves bkprs don't help the industry. And I don't just mean the commercial part of the industry, but the whole industry.

One problem w/ TBHism is, what happens to all of the equipment when the TBH bkpr gives up beekeeping? If the equipment were standard Langstroth type equip, at least someone else could buy it and use it in the operation.


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

rrussell6870 said:


> the only point of offering to reimburse or replace anything, is to promote education, inspection, and corrective action to control a serious disease.


I like it. I also apologize for taking the conversation into the political arena. You all deserve better conversation. 

Acebird:

I hit a sour spot with you and did not intend to. I extend my apology to you. 

rrussell:

Those are good ideas of how the funding could be spent beyond just simple reimbursement.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> On the other hand, spreading poorly considered opinions in order to prompt others to correct you when you state repeatedly that you can learn everything you need to learn this way without cracking a book looks pretty selfish from here.


And from here, that is a poorly considered opinion. There are countless number of posts, not just mine, that state the disadvantage of learning from books and the advantages of learning from the internet. How you learn is a personal preference.



> well, seems like you have been offered a number of valuable resources by your club, and you seem not to want to take advantage of any of them.


You are making an assumption that I haven't taken advantage of what the club offers. They do not offer hands on inspections. Reading about something is not the same thing as doing it. We could all be pilots if all we had to do is read a book.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Acebird said:


> There are countless number of posts, not just mine, that state the disadvantage of learning from books and the advantages of learning from the internet.


...the internet is a great resource for all of us. a forum like this has the distinct disadvantage that the advice comes as a mishmash from many different sources (all of whom may be correct) that, in aggregate, makes no sense....ie, you might "learn" from one source that you should only buy bees locally if at all possible and to have them in the package as short a time as possible (reasonable advice), and from another source that you should direct release the queen in a new package (also reasonable advice). If both are followed, you might shake a package the day of or the day after it was made up....the bees might not yet be used to the queen, and direct releasing her will get her killed.

There is no way for the internet to work as a good learning tool if people write more than they read.



> How you learn is a personal preference.


...your preference seems to be to learn more by imposing on others rather than by educating yourself.



> You are making an assumption that I haven't taken advantage of what the club offers. They do not offer hands on inspections. Reading about something is not the same thing as doing it. We could all be pilots if all we had to do is read a book.


Doing a hive inspection "wrong" does not crash a plane into a house.

One beesource member who I met last year at a field day told me that the description of how to do an inspection [from our book] was one of the most valuable things he has ever read.

Honestly, I'd ignore your posts, except that I think doing so would make things difficult for new beekeepers who actually are trying to learn. this may be your preferred learning approach, it doesn't make it "not selfish".

deknow


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> ...your preference seems to be to learn more by imposing on others rather than by educating yourself.


Sorry you feel that way...

This thread is about whether an Equipment loss fund is a good idea or not. We both have voiced our opinions. They don't have to agree.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Sorry you feel that way...


...I feel that way because, even just a few posts up from this one, you cited me as the source of your knowledge of the "selfish practices of commercial beeks", and as a reason to not to consider the advice or experience of a commercial beekeeper of value. This is a gross distortion of anything I've ever posted (intentional?), and by citing me as the source, i either let it stand (and allow others to think i feel that way), or i have to correct things.

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm glad you made that point, Dean. I considered the source, as my Dad always counciled me to. And considered what I know of you and gave no weight to what was stated. Tho I can imagine less knowledgable and experienced persons would have believed what they read or thought they read.

This Thread has gotten off track. Which I bear some responsibility for. Let's get back to the Topic of the Thread.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

yes.

...if it were limited to 5 hives (as rob suggested)....a program mostly for the hobby beekeeper, in order to encourage inspection and to take the bite out of burning a few hives sounds pretty good to me. i'm going to think about bringing something like this up at the next board meeting.

deknow


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I like it. It should be enough to cover virtually all hobbyists and even side-liners and probably most commercials in a calendar year and yet leave little room for abuse. 
What should the entitlement be for someone who has needed to burn a hive or two?
What are the fees for the beekeepers?

I wonder how many hives would need to be burned if prophylactic treatment for AFB were abruptly ended.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When foulbrood rates are less than 3%, that's not very many cols in one year in NY.

How often would bkpr fees be necassary? Annually?


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## Apiator (Apr 8, 2011)

Solomon,

Your altruism is to be commended... but your faith in your fellow man and your government is wildly misplaced. 

Every "safety net" program very quickly devolves into two things: abuse, and creation of a dependent class. Take the Farm Bill for instance. It started out well enough, but now it's just another welfare program, mainly benefiting the types of "farms" and "farmers" (words used loosely) who produce things I wouldn't feed to swine. This is why we have feedlots, factory farms, and a diseased population.

Let's not forget, too, that thing called "bureaucratic overhead" aka red tape. Some 50-75% of incoming revenue to government is taken up by the layers of bureaucracy before it goes out to the people it's supposed to help. Maybe firing one less million-dollar missile in Libya could pay for _all_ AFB losses nationwide... but do you think that will ever happen? With what you suggest, within 5 years the bureaucracy created to manage your program will have more employees than there are beekeepers.

The Constitution does not guarantee a bed of roses. I'll take responsibility for my own stuff, thank you very much.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

The opposite has proven true in Mississippi.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Please elaborate.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I think that if it's done through local organizations, like the ESHPA as sqkcrk mentioned, then it's more likely to be successful. It could even use donated equipment to avoid any added expenses to the membership.

With the budget cuts that are occurring, I don't think that it's realistic to depend on gov't programs to cover an AFB loss fund.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

rrussell6870 said:


> and if some bozo moves a hive a few blocks away from one of your yards, never says anything, and you never see it, then if dies of afb, and your girls rob out the equipment, this program would help you too...


I notice that you always tend to blame the AFB problem on the little beekeeper ("bozo") when you write about it. I'm curious if you base this on any kind of factual study or data that proves this, or just your personal opinion. Personally, I have a hunch that the majority of AFB cases come from commercial beekeepers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, as I have told you before, statistics don't bear that out. I haven't gotten the report from Paul Cappy, but I do remember that what was reported was that the smaller apiaries and beekeepers w/ fewer hives was where AFB was more often found.

If you want to call Paul Cappy, NY State Apiculturalist, maybe he will tell you that what I report here is accurate.

Certainly, if, on average, disease rates are, let's say, 5%, just for arguement sake, and everyone has the same rate, then someone w/ 1,000 cols will have more infected hives than someone w/ 20 cols. But, that is not the way it works in reality. Regardless is disparaging names like "bozo".


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I think that the real 'blame' falls on an out of date perception of AFB as a monster that must be stamped out by burning equipment before it gets out of control.

AFB comes in many different strains that can exist as apparent or inapparent infections in hives.
Honeybees/hives have many different mechanisms of resistance to AFB as well.

My understanding, from what I've read in the literature, is that when Honeybees/hives encounter a strain of AFB that they can't fight off, you get mortality.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean that neighboring hives will get knocked off.

They could still have an inapparent infection that is being masked by hygienic behavior for example.

So, they could be infected but don't succumb. But, they can still spread P. larvae.

However, no one is suggesting that you should burn hives that test positive (by PCR ,for instance) for P. larvae, even though they don't have an apparent AFB infection.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

the best tool for afb is local bee clubs. I worked for bee inpection in nys for for 3 yrs before becoming commercial. most afb is caused by new beekeepers. lack of experence and lose of interest are the cause. commercial guys livings depend on healthy bees. It is not beginners fault but makes bee clubs with mentors very important. a good beekeeper should not pay for a poor or unlucky beekeeper.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Well, we can all spout off where we think the blame should be, but it's just opinion unless someone has done some research that proves one way or another. Mark, your friend has data on the whole country or just NY?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Off Topic.

Been down the blame game thing in other threads.

Let's just say is that new beeks still learning need help, education, support. Another thing I've seen in my own patch, is old beeks becoming a problem, as they get physically past caring for their bees but cannot bear to sell them. I've seen so many delapidated hives owned by old guys that once were fine beekeepers, it's made me detirmined I'm not going to end up like that, once the time comes or nearly comes, I'm selling up, maybe just keep one hive in the backyard.

An old and much loved hobby beekeeper died maybe 10 years ago in an area in my patch, and left all his hives to a newbie who had only been in bees a couple of years. The hives had been poorly cared for during the last few years of the guys life and it turned out some had AFB, in the end she burned nearly all of them.

Anyhow, wherever the blame lies, the purpose of a compensation package is more about ensuring infected material is destroyed. To achieve that goal, it needs to be done in tandem with a good education program, inspections, and a big stick when it is occasionally needed.

In the feild of education, it is surprising how many beeks have studied up photos of AFB, and other booklearning, but still have to ask someone else to check their hive because they are not sure.
The very best education is an actual comb with AFB at a bee club or similar, and people can dunk in a stick and do the ropiness test themselves. That, they won't forget. Then the other thing will be the decontamination procedures they have to do, another great experience that will turn out beeks who can properly check their own hives.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> Mark, your friend has data on the whole country or just NY?


Just NY. I called and spoke to the NC person in charge of their Inspection Program and asked him the same question and he confirmed what I am saying.

I went to the Apiary Inspectors of America website. Got a bunch of phone numbers and called a few, until I got thru to someone. I really wanted to talk to I. Barton Smith, from MD. Currently or formerly of The Beltsville Bee Lab and President of the AIA, but didn't get to him.

I don't know if any other State studied the data in the same way. It would be nice if they had. Robert J. Mungari, Director of Plant Industry and the Apiary Inspectors, compiled this data for a number of years. I believe, in part, to justify the program and its effectiveness in addressing the AFB problem.

Jerry Hayes is one person who I would like an answer from. He is the FL State Apiculturalist, or, perhaps, Apiarist. Y'all may know him from ABJ. He and I studied under Jim Tew at OSU/ATI, but differtent years.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Certainly, if, on average, disease rates are, let's say, 5%, just for arguement sake, and everyone has the same rate, then someone w/ 1,000 cols will have more infected hives than someone w/ 20 cols.


I don't think it works that way. I think it is more like risk analysis. If a commercial beek is moving hives 6000 miles a year those hives are at a greater risk than my hive that never moves with no one else around. It has been said ... If these commercial beeks are now afraid of contacting AFB because they are at higher risk they are more apt to medicate the bees (I now know this only masks the problem and intensifies it because their operation is now a germ carrier). OK so some commercial beeks may say they are treatment free but co-mingling with other commercial beeks on the same jobs means they will still carry the spores around the country.

Any time you have commerce you have risks of infection for everyone and everything. That is what quarantine is all about.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Well, as I have told you before, statistics don't bear that out. I haven't gotten the report from Paul Cappy, but I do remember that what was reported was that the smaller apiaries and beekeepers w/ fewer hives was where AFB was more often found.


From the Rumor Mill: These statistics are not based on sampling everything, and they are not based on sampling randomly. I have been told that NY inspected some "clean" commercial beekeepers disproportionately in order to make the statistics look good (like, 3%). This would also skew the Commercial/Hobbyist AFB ratio, if true.

deknow


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

According to this SHB can transmit AFB.

http://www.apidologie.org/index.php...articles/apido/abs/2010/01/m08154/m08154.html

What do you do about vectors that fly?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> From the Rumor Mill: These statistics are not based on sampling everything, and they are not based on sampling randomly. I have been told that NY inspected some "clean" commercial beekeepers disproportionately in order to make the statistics look good (like, 3%). This would also skew the Commercial/Hobbyist AFB ratio, if true.
> 
> deknow


Well Dean, I don't know who told you that, but I can guess. Of course they were not from sampling everything. Doing so is impossible. But it was done by inspecting every fourth apiary in the Listings, County by County, for a number of years.

Not sampled/inspected randomly, but by whatever one would call "every fourth yard". A statistical sampling?

How would one know whether a commercial operation were "clean" or not before inspecting it? Doesn't make sense to me.

I was not privy to the reasoning of Bob Mungari, but I highly doubt that he, by compiling his data, had any intentions of producing misleading information.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

So the sample size was25%? That is a huge sample size.


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