# Amazon Oxalic Acid Killed my Hives!



## AG Fresh

This was my second year treating my bees with OAV. I've been using the stuff from Brushy Mountain with amazing success. 1/4 teaspoon = 1 gram of OA and 1 gram per brood box so typically 1/2 teaspoon per hive. I was treating 2 weeks ago and ran out of Oxalic Acid with 5 hives to go so I had to order more. I went on amazon and saw reviews from beekeepers saying this worked for their varroa mites so I bought it! I went back out and treated my last 5 hives. 2 days later I went out to check the mite drops on my bottom boards and 3 of the hives showed NOTHING.. not even wax cappings. 3/5 of the hives were completely killed, with bees still in their cluster and butts sticking out of cells. 

This stuff says its 99.6% pure, does anyone know the purity of the Brushy Mountain oxalic acid?


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## snl

AG Fresh said:


> This stuff says its 99.6% pure, does anyone know the purity of the Brushy Mountain oxalic acid?


BM's label states 97%.
From what you have described, it "sounds" as if your bees starved.........


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## D Coates

snl said:


> BM's label states 97%.
> From what you have described, it "sounds" as if your bees starved.........


I can't help but agree with the above statement. Did you feed them? How'd their stores look?


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## WillH

It is unusual for 3 hives to starve at the same time. Starvation happens in late winter, early spring.


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## jim lyon

AG Fresh said:


> bees still in their cluster and butts sticking out of cells.
> 
> 
> View attachment 29262
> View attachment 29263
> View attachment 29264


....and 2 of the 5 were fine? I agree sounds like starvation.


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## AG Fresh

They have stupid amounts of honey. The bottom brood chamber boxes were mostly empty but each hive had a full brood box of honey on top + a full medium super ontop of that. I actually took the top deeps and gave them to other hives who had less.


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## JRG13

Stores above the cluster mean nothing if the bees don't/can't move to it. If the boxes they were in were void of open stores, they could've starved out, what were the temps recently?


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## jim lyon

AG Fresh said:


> They have stupid amounts of honey. The bottom brood chamber boxes were mostly empty but each hive had a full brood box of honey on top + a full medium super ontop of that. I actually took the top deeps and gave them to other hives who had less.


How big were the clusters, and how big were they in relation to your survivors? Unless they were at least the size of a volleyball it's hard for them to move much in any direction once temps drop much below freezing.


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## JWChesnut

I killed hives in 2009 (?) using the "crack pipe" method then in vogue. Due to inexperience, I double dosed the OA -- which was measured with the pipecap measure. The bees died in 24 hours (or less).

The cause of my kill may have been overdose (as the Nicholas Aliano papers demonstrate toxicity at high rates), or may have been decomposition to Carbon monoxide due to overheating of the crude copper pipe device. 

Seems like the internet compound (which due to english grammar errors in the labeling was likely packaged in China) could be dissolved and recrystallized to determine presence of adulterants.

The Aliano papers present methods for toxicity assessment (a captured bee in a petri dish and a known concentration of OA fluid). This could be reproduced in any kitchen lab.


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## AG Fresh

Most of the bees were dead on the screen but many were dead in the upper chamber too. All hives were 100% dead when I dissected them a week later. Temps have been freezing but not too bad and some mild days mixed in. I keep Russians, and I don't think the clusters were huge but they were strong hives going into fall.


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## orthoman

As mentioned, butts sticking out of cells and in somewhat of a cluster is fairly typical of starvation. I noticed it has been fairly cold where you live - not much higher than 42 over the past several days, not sure past that. As mentioned, sometimes the cluster can't move to the food and the hive dies. I have had hives die out with full deep super of honey just above them and it doesn't get nearly as cold here as where you live.


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## jean-marc

I am thinking they starved as well. I suppose the oxalic could be toxic, but then why did 2 of the 5 survive. You could treat 1 of the 2 surviving colonies once more, to see if indeed the oxalic is what kiled the bees.

Jean-Marc


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## AG Fresh

What if the OAV killed 75% of the hive and then the last 25% starved as a dramatically smaller cluster with the stores from the original sized cluster having been eaten around them. Like I said, the screen was covered in dead bees but there were small clusters of bees dead in and around the cells of the upper brood chamber.


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## AG Fresh

Also note that the 10 other hives I treated with Brushy Mountain OA are all still alive.


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## msl

orthoman said:


> As mentioned, butts sticking out of cells and in somewhat of a cluster is fairly typical of starvation.


yes starved bees are found head in, as are they for other reasons when they die in cluster.

Bees winter cluster head in the cells, think how un efffcent it would be if they didn't, a bee space seam of bees separated by a empty comb vs only the foundation mid rib between them and the rest of the cluster on the other side


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## beemandan

Did you do any other mite treatment? A single dose of oav in December may be too little too late.


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## AG Fresh

No just OAV in November. It kills like 95%+ of mites, I had huge mite drops after treatment.


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## Hillbillybees

Used same material from Amazon all year with no negative effects. Did 3 treatments 5 days apart on nucs.


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## AG Fresh

Hillbillybees said:


> Used same material from Amazon all year with no negative effects. Did 3 treatments 5 days apart on nucs.


what dosage did you use on your double stack hives and nucs? I did two 1/4 teaspoons for my full size hives. I did allow for the teaspoon measurements to swell a little over the top of the spoon only because I didn't have the hives sealed very well during vaporization.


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## bee keeper chef

Treating 1 time late in the year will kill most of you mites but the damage may have already occurred with virus. Mites need to be knocked down long before your hives are brooding up for winter.


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## minz

From your OP it sounds like you did not weigh it but measure it, (1/4 teaspoon = 1 gram of OA) OA needs to be weighed. If you have a scale try to weigh the amount you used and see if the assumption of the amount of acid was correct. You may have pounded the crap out of them but not the fault of the acid but rather the mixture due to a variation of the compaction of the dry acid.


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## snl

minz said:


> From your OP it sounds like you did not weigh it but measure it, (1/4 teaspoon = 1 gram of OA) OA needs to be weighed. ect. You may have pounded the crap out of them but not the fault of the acid but rather the mixture due to a variation of the compaction of the dry acid.


Actually, it does not need to be weighed.........measurement by the 1/4 teaspoon or a gram measuring spoon is sufficient.............


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## Dan the bee guy

I used Oxalic acid from Amazon all the time works just fine you did something else wrong.


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## cheryl1

Amazon OA works just fine on my bees too


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## crofter

Is there any chance tbs. got mistaken for tsp. ?


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## camero7

I have deliberately overdosed hives with OA with no significant side effects. I have yet to kill a hive with oxalic. If you look at the treatments with the vm they are overdosing many of the hives. Yet they have good results. I don't believe it was the oa, look elsewhere for the problem


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## beemandan

It is a bit of a sticky wicket but...if you knock down the mites in November....you've missed the window for healthy winter bees. A recent study suggests that varroa eat vitellogenin...essentially bee fat reserves that winter bees must have to survive the challenges of cold weather. Add to that the fact that varroa also vector a variety of diseases. It is very possible that your bees were already severely weakened from mite parasitism and the collapse had nothing to do with the treatment.


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## Richard Harris

I have treated with Oxalic for the last five years in Early Spring when the winter bees are beginning to fly as weather is warming. You know thats when you open up the hive and the bees look like the new car at the car lot. Nice wings and colorful. I see Mann Lake and all the Vendors pushing the vaporizer method, but I will tell you the dribble method works real well for me. I give them a shot glass full in a garden sprayer on the top bars and bottom bars early Spring every 10 days for two to three treatments(light dose). They pick up and are mite free until build up and start producing drones which brings back the mites all over again. Thats when you have to treat them all over depending on the mite load before the honey flow starts to come. I am willing to try the vaporizing method a friend of mine purchased one I can loan so I will see. I use the formula on scientific bee keeping with distilled water we do 175 hives in about 1 and 1/2 hours. I use Apilife Var early spring and Apivar strips in the fall. Works fine for me. Hope that help


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## clyderoad

A recent study(U Maryland) also shows that vitellogenin forms a tissue termed the fat body. This fat body is responsible for nearly everything important 
for a healthy bee, like growth & development, metamorphosis, nutrient storage & mobilization, metabolic activity, H2O loss & osmoregulation,
temperature regulation, protein synthesis, vitellogenisis and immune function. A damaged fat body dooms the bee.
In the study hemolymph and vitellogenin of living bees were biostained and the lab produced varroa mites feeding on them, when dissected, showed about 80% vitellogenin
biostain and only 20% hemolymph stain in their bodies. Not only do they feed on vitelogenin but it clearly makes up nearly their entire diet. In fact their frass is 95% amino acids, the waste product of vitelogenin consumption.
No wonder varroa are such a deadly foe.


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## snapper1d

AG Fresh said:


> What if the OAV killed 75% of the hive and then the last 25% starved as a dramatically smaller cluster with the stores from the original sized cluster having been eaten around them. Like I said, the screen was covered in dead bees but there were small clusters of bees dead in and around the cells of the upper brood chamber.


You keep saying the screen was covered with dead bees.Are you using screened bottoms this time of year in NY?


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## enjambres

I am not the OP but lots of people use screened bottom boards in NY in the winter. I also do, but I have them sitting on top of a solid board below, so my stacks are actually as closed up as a non-screened hive. But other northern NY beekeepers use just SBB alone with apparent success. I couldn't sleep at night with a set-up like that, but to each her own foibles.

Edited to add: FWIW I use the Savogran Hardware store variety of OA in a Varrox wand. I measure carefully using the "dip and sweep" method (bakers and cooks will know what I mean). I use 1/4 *teaspoon* per box (or 10-frame equivalent because many of my stacks are multiples of 5's, 6's and 7's, not the 10's of the outside dimensions). In 10-frame boxes, stacked one medium and three deeps high (my typical wintering configuration) I use a full teaspoon of OA. I have removed the tablespoon from my measuring spoon set, so I only have the quarter-, half- and full teaspoon on the ring. A full tablespoon is a twelve box dose and not something I want to use by accident..

I have treated nearly forty hives this fall each with a four dose-series and am just starting the broodless rounds now.

Enj.


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## RAK

Ive over dosed with oxalic numerous times and never seen dead bees, queens or brood. I say that the mites got the bees, the clusters dwindled abd couldn't reach the honey.


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## jim lyon

RAK said:


> Ive over dosed with oxalic numerous times and never seen dead bees, queens or brood. I say that the mites got the bees, the clusters dwindled abd couldn't reach the honey.


I would guess you are correct. Hope the op takes my comments and those of others in the spirit they are intended. I'm sorry for his (?) loss. I think a better thread title might have been. "Could Amazon OA kill my bees?"


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## beepro

Dan and RAK is correct on this one.
The winter environment is a very unstable time for the bees. Bees just don't hibernate like the bears do.
All winter long they will eat and stored up the body fat. Contrary to popular belief that a hive only starved during the
Spring expansion mode, it is the winter time that killed the most. Added to this an open bottom screen will send the bees chilling away. Many hives will have the small patches of broods along with the mites also. After the summer bees are dead the remaining are the big fat winter bees. If a hive failed to keep up with the winter bees then a cold and warm cycle will dwindled the hive away. The cold bees will stick their head inside trying to keep warm but to no avail because only in a cluster mode can they keep themselves warm all together. This is a sign of mistiming the treatment and not enough big fat winter bees for replacement. Also, if in question use another more reliable oa brand next time.


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## clyderoad

Regarding screened bottom boards, there is a member here from Scandinavia, if I remember right, that explained the method of overwintering there is a completely open bottom! the thread is somewhere here on Beesource.
I don't use open bottom hives or screened bottom boards but those who state a open bottom hive is detrimental to bees over the winter should rethink their position in light of how hives are overwintered in some cold, frigid parts of the world.
Or they should try it themselves and stop the hearsay.

I have used OAV in excess of the recommended amounts and have had no dead colonies because of it. As mentioned, I'd look
for another cause.


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## jwcarlson

WillH said:


> It is unusual for 3 hives to starve at the same time. Starvation happens in late winter, early spring.


If you had a summer/fall dearth like we had here this year starvation could have easily happened in August or September.

But really the correct answer is that starvation happens whenever the bees run out of food. Starvation doesn't have a calendar.


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## Richard Cryberg

clyderoad said:


> Regarding screened bottom boards, there is a member here from Scandinavia, if I remember right, that explained the method of overwintering there is a completely open bottom! the thread is somewhere here on Beesource.
> I don't use open bottom hives or screened bottom boards but those who state a open bottom hive is detrimental to bees over the winter should rethink their position in light of how hives are overwintered in some cold, frigid parts of the world.
> Or they should try it themselves and stop the hearsay.
> 
> I have used OAV in excess of the recommended amounts and have had no dead colonies because of it. As mentioned, I'd look
> for another cause.


Beepro lives in Sacramento. He does not even have a winter and has zero experience with a real winter. I have wintered five over five deep nucs with an open screened bottom board. I have a real winter. Sub zero temps every year. Well over 100 inches of snow every winter. I wintered such a nuc two years ago when one morning my temp was neg 28 deg F. That nuc was fine come spring. Not suggesting I think doing this is a good idea. Not even suggesting I think screened bottoms are a good idea as I have replaced mine with solid bottoms. The point is if you have healthy bees and a good young population of bees in the late fall and adequate food and adequate ventilation to get rid of moisture cold is not much of an issue. Particularly it is not much of an issue if you get one flying day every four or five weeks so the bees can relieve themselves. I have seen hives opened in the spring in my climate which were wrapped and insulated and had a quilt box on top that were covered inside with mold. Mold on the inner top, combs and walls of the hive. Some were barely alive and some more were dead. You can do more harm than good trying to protect your bees from the elements in my opinion. My total winter prep is to put the slot down and to the front on the inner cover and put a mouse guard in the entrance. That is all I do. My bees winter just fine. Losses average under 10% the last two winters for both production hives and nucs that are at least five over five deeps. If you have healthy bees with adequate food they do fine with minimal winter protection. If you do not have healthy bees with adequate food they die. This is not complicated. Both healthy bees and adequate food depend on what you do in July and August. If you have not taken care of problems then it is too late. Thinking you can solve such problems in Sept or Oct is too late this far north and you might as well save the effort of trying to correct earlier errors and just let them die.

I have started nucs as late as late August. I added several frames of healthy mite free ready to emerge brood as soon as the queen was laying. I added a lot of comb filled with honey. I fed them all the sugar they would take in September. They also did fine. But, I only had healthy brood and bees to add because of what I did months earlier. Had I added mite infected sick brood they would have died.

Dick


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## jwcarlson

beepro said:


> Bees just don't hibernate like the bears do.


Bears don't hibernate either.

In fact, what bears do might be one of the closest 'animal' comparisons to what bees do.


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## Forgiven

clyderoad said:


> Regarding screened bottom boards, there is a member here from Scandinavia, if I remember right, that explained the method of overwintering there is a completely open bottom! the thread is somewhere here on Beesource.
> I don't use open bottom hives or screened bottom boards but those who state a open bottom hive is detrimental to bees over the winter should rethink their position in light of how hives are overwintered in some cold, frigid parts of the world.
> Or they should try it themselves and stop the hearsay.
> 
> I have used OAV in excess of the recommended amounts and have had no dead colonies because of it. As mentioned, I'd look
> for another cause.


Not sure which scandinavian that would be, but...
Yes and no for finland, we use both bottoms with screens (but those have airtight roof, so ventilation is only through bottom) and those with solid bottoms that ventilate through the roof and entrance. Mix of screened bottom and ventilation through the top is not ideal, some hives will survive that way too, but winter losses will be higher. (At the winter lenghts we have here)


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## costigaj

I can't speak for Amazon's OA but when I purchased my OA powder, I paid extra to make sure it was lab reagent grade and manufactured in the US. I didn't feel comfortable using OA that did not indicate the country of origin.


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## Kuro

Amazon sells OA from a bunch of different companies. The one I bought (Savogran 10501 Wood Bleach, 12 oz) worked fine.


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## minz

snl said:


> Actually, it does not need to be weighed.........measurement by the 1/4 teaspoon or a gram measuring spoon is sufficient.............


http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-treatment-table/
Randy Oliver was always pretty adamant that the solution is by weight (WW) and also adds a column for the higher percentage of acid rather than off the shelf wood bleach. Does it make a real difference? From the thread here sounds like you just use a pinch and see what happens.
Which is kind of funny since you use Randy Oliver in your footer!


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## mgstei1

As always the Europeans are years ahead of the USA in mite treatments and everything else concerning the bees and I just ordered 100ea 1 gram OA pills to use instead of measuring and forgetting dosages. British Company.
I did check a year ago with a USA compounder and the minimum I could order in pill form was 2000 lbs and they had to use a solvent lubricant to make their pill machine work.
The bee supply companies should step forward and request 1 gram pills from a US supplier and sell that instead of the powders for OAV wand usage.
Same thing with Zentari BT, the Europeans also sell a solution comcentrate to use instead of the powder for easier handling since its mixed with water anyhow.


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## clyderoad

jwcarlson said:


> If you had a summer/fall dearth like we had here this year starvation could have easily happened in August or September.
> 
> But really the correct answer is that starvation happens whenever the bees run out of food. Starvation doesn't have a calendar.


We've been there for the last 4 summers, either severe or extreme drought every summer. It makes perfect sense why every vegetable farm has a deep well on a diesel pump and aluminum 4" water pipe laid out across the fields. Too bad they don't water
the hedge rows as well as the veggies. 
Hives do starve in the late summer here or early winter . Pull too much honey on July 1 you'll be buying sugar on Aug 15. If not fed and they make August they are probably good to November/December then out of food head in and butt out dead. Droughts are game changes where as dearths are normal course of business.


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## Rader Sidetrack

minz said:


> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-treatment-table/
> Randy Oliver was always pretty adamant that the solution is by weight (WW) and also adds a column for the higher percentage of acid rather than off the shelf wood bleach.


The page you linked is all about Randy talking about measuring/preparing oxalic acid for the DRIBBLE method, not vaporization. 

Additionally, regarding using a volume measurement (like a teaspoon) instead of a scale, Randy notes at the bottom of the page ...


> ... then an approximate dilution would be 3 [HIGHLIGHT] tsp[/HIGHLIGHT] oxalic crystals to 5 fl. oz each of water and granulated sugar. This will give you a bit over a cup of treated syrup, or enough to treat about 4 colonies (or 3 really strong ones).
> 
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-treatment-table/


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## dudelt

mgstei1, I am not so sure they are ahead of us on this one. Wait until some kid starts swallowing those pills or some dementia patient mistakes them for his blood pressure pills. It is not that hard to measure out the amount needed.


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## clyderoad

mgstei1 said:


> As always the Europeans are years ahead of the USA in mite treatments and everything else concerning the bees and I just ordered 100ea 1 gram OA pills to use instead of measuring and forgetting dosages. British Company.
> I did check a year ago with a USA compounder and the minimum I could order in pill form was 2000 lbs and they had to use a solvent lubricant to make their pill machine work.
> The bee supply companies should step forward and request 1 gram pills from a US supplier and sell that instead of the powders for OAV wand usage.
> Same thing with Zentari BT, the Europeans also sell a solution comcentrate to use instead of the powder for easier handling since its mixed with water anyhow.


Oh boy :scratch:


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## clyderoad

dudelt said:


> mgstei1, I am not so sure they are ahead of us on this one. Wait until some kid starts swallowing those pills or some dementia patient mistakes them for his blood pressure pills. It is not that hard to measure out the amount needed.


Oh boy, oh boy :scratch:


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## MT204

mgstei1 said:


> As always the Europeans are years ahead of the USA in mite treatments and everything else concerning the bees and I just ordered 100ea 1 gram OA pills to use instead of measuring and forgetting dosages. British Company.
> I did check a year ago with a USA compounder and the minimum I could order in pill form was 2000 lbs and they had to use a solvent lubricant to make their pill machine work.
> The bee supply companies should step forward and request 1 gram pills from a US supplier and sell that instead of the powders for OAV wand usage.
> Same thing with Zentari BT, the Europeans also sell a solution comcentrate to use instead of the powder for easier handling since its mixed with water anyhow.


I got tired of measuring OA so made my own "pill" maker. 
When I get a few minutes I pound out the pills to use later.
They do vaporize a little bit different but do the job.


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## minz

Rader Sidetrack said:


> The page you linked is all about Randy talking about measuring/preparing oxalic acid for the DRIBBLE method, not vaporization.
> 
> Additionally, regarding using a volume measurement (like a teaspoon) instead of a scale, Randy notes at the bottom of the page ...


Man I missed it was an OA thread, My bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jwcarlson

mgstei1 said:


> As always the Europeans are years ahead of the USA in mite treatments and everything else concerning the bees and I just ordered 100ea 1 gram OA pills to use instead of measuring and forgetting dosages. British Company.
> I did check a year ago with a USA compounder and the minimum I could order in pill form was 2000 lbs and they had to use a solvent lubricant to make their pill machine work.
> The bee supply companies should step forward and request 1 gram pills from a US supplier and sell that instead of the powders for OAV wand usage.
> Same thing with Zentari BT, the Europeans also sell a solution comcentrate to use instead of the powder for easier handling since its mixed with water anyhow.


How far ahead are the costs?


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## AG Fresh

To answer some of the questions on the last page, I use screened bottom boards however I have either plastic or masonite trays underneath. I'm sure this creates a little bit of a draft but its not like I have the screens wide open. I like to be able to pull the trays out and see what's dropping through, and also being able to see how large the cluster is and where its located based on the wax cappings that drop through.

It just seems like an awful coincidence that 3 of the 5 hives perished from this treatment immediately afterwards, but the other 10 hives are doing just fine.


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## Dave Burrup

This thread is prime example of how worthless anecdotal evidence is. The cause of the death of these hives is unknown.


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## beemandan

Dave Burrup said:


> This thread is prime example of how worthless anecdotal evidence is. The cause of the death of these hives is unknown.


One could say much the same for most posts asking 'why' they failed. Are you suggesting that folks stop asking? Or that folks stop offering opinions?


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## ritan1

Dave Burrup said:


> This thread is prime example of how worthless anecdotal evidence is. The cause of the death of these hives is unknown.


I would not say that it is worthless, but that it should be part of a range of information and evidence used in decision-making. I enjoy hearing people's opinions and ideas, and have found this thread to be helpful.


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## emrude

For more worthless anecdotal evidence, in August I treated my four hives with three rounds of the brand Enjambres uses, "Savogran Hardware store variety of OA in a Varrox wand." I treated one last time the begining of the week. My mite drops on sticky boards at 48 hours after treatment were 60, 100, 109 and 134. The 134 was my biggest hive and has more bees than the others. 
AGFresh, you said you treated in November "...It kills like 95%+ of mites, I had huge mite drops after treatment." If your mite count was indeed huge, your hives in November were past saving. 

Good luck in the future.

Mary


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## Dave Burrup

This week alone there have been threads with Oxalic Acid killed my queens, can only be used once a year, can be used weekly all year long, 2X the recommended dose is fine, it works great, did not work at all, all of this anecdotal


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## snl

minz said:


> From the thread here sounds like you just use a pinch and see what happens.
> Which is kind of funny since you use Randy Oliver in your footer!


Sorry Minz, You are mistaken. You may want to check thoroughly before you berate a fellow BS member.


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## beemandan

Dave Burrup said:


> all of this anecdotal


I'm not in disagreement. But...if everyone sent samples to Beltsville, did objective mite counts, had their own microscope and knew how to use it and stayed current on all the research....I would submit that Beesource would dry up and disappear. I bet Barry would object to that. Maybe I'm exaggerating....but not by much....


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## Dave Burrup

Dan if everybody did as you suggest most of the problems of keeping bees would disappear too.


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## Rader Sidetrack

But ... but ... but ... I bet Beesource would still be quite active, if from nothing else than the "How to make syrup" threads and the variants of "Lauri's sugar blocks" threads! :lpf:

:shhhh:


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## scorpionmain

Starved & treated to late.


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## sc-bee

mgstei1 said:


> Same thing with Zentari BT, the Europeans also sell a solution comcentrate to use instead of the powder for easier handling since its mixed with water anyhow.


A 1lb bag that will treat couple 1000 frames or more vs a small bottle that will treat how many??? You do the math


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## mgstei1

The math is equal treatments. The liquid is concentrated.


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## sc-bee

deleted... off topic


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## AG Fresh

Update: All 5 hives are now dead that I used the amazon OA on, and all 8 of the hives i treated the same exact way with the BrushyMTN OA are still humming away. I will now officially blame the OA I bought on amazon. Throwing it in the trash and buying OA from a beekeeping website from now on. As always, I WISH I knew the exact reason but I'm certain it had to do with the OA. Buyer beware!


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## Stephenpbird

clyderoad said:


> Oh boy :scratch:


Yup.
Just don't tell anyone, there are only two European countries where its legal to use OAV.


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## Forgiven

Stephenpbird said:


> Yup.
> Just don't tell anyone, there are only two European countries where its legal to use OAV.


Really? Which ones?
I'm surprised by all these law and restriction discussions... until few years ago the state didn't even require you to register as beekeeper... (Now they want apiary locations for disease tracking purposes but I'm not 100% sure they have actual system in place to use it for anything, they just want to know, because states are nosy)

It's mostly self regulating here, sure, if you want to sell a product for killing mites or any kind of medication of bees, you will need to get it registered (and I presume they'll check if other EU countries have approved/tested it and go on that)... but as far as I know, acids are just acids and not regulated. And thymol is just essential oil, no permits there either.

Hmm, and sure, we have our own bunch of silly laws about scales and such, but I haven't actually heard of anything banning placement of a hive as long as you have landowners permit...


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## mgstei1

Just received Oxalic Tablets from a British Company and they actually were compounded in Italy from what I can tell.
Takes all the guess work out of scoop measuring and the tabs are about the size of a Rolaids antiacid chewable tab.
And the packaging is far more robust and safer than any OA I have bought here off Amazon,Lowes, or from a bee company.
Over here I have yet to find a vendor wanting to sell tabs. The market is here for sure. Far as costs, .20 cents a treatment is good economics over losing a hive to mites or having a deadout from them and have beetles and moths take over.
And the price of a wand is way less than 1 colony lost to mites.

I trust the Europeans to know more about dosing and what it takes to drop mites. Genius to figure out to start with how OA drops mites and is not a pesticide or insecticide and can be used in liquid or vapor form.
The Europeans are extremely environment and safety friendly and have kept bees way longer than Americans. Centuries longer.
Ya'll just help us out over here and some of us will listen and some never will.


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## jwcarlson

mgstei1 said:


> The Europeans have kept bees way longer than Americans. Centuries longer.


Well, they had a bit of a head start. 

Seems like maybe you should consider making a move though, Europe sounds like a good fit to you.

Re: the tabs, it's a great idea. I just don't see why it's difficult to measure out a quarter teaspoon. What's the "guesswork" here? Bakers have been measuring quantities like that for centuries without need for a pill form to make their products. Of course Europeans have been baking for centuries longer than Americans though. Maybe they have baking soda in pill form over there?


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## snl

mgstei1 said:


> Takes all the guess work out of scoop measuring and the tabs are about the size of a Rolaids antiacid chewable tab.
> Over here I have yet to find a vendor wanting to sell tabs.


Answer: What guesswork? You get a measuring scoop, measure and it's done. Not rocket science here.
Answer: You probably won't find a vendor to sell tablets here, no money in it. OA is available almost everywhere. It costs big bucks to get approval to sell OA here. Most can measure.


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## mgstei1

snl said:


> Answer: What guesswork? You get a measuring scoop, measure and it's done. Not rocket science here.
> Answer: You probably won't find a vendor to sell tablets here, no money in it. OA is available almost everywhere. It costs big bucks to get approval to sell OA here. Most can measure.


I can measure too with the scoup you sent with my varrox. But Ive wasted lots of it and dealing with a open container and a scoup with PPE on is sometimes a show that needs to be recorded for funniest home videos.. Im old and sure cant see and Ive gotten a snout full of OA vapor and it is unforgiving.I sure have less of a chance of getting some in my eyes from wind or being handling it stupid. Same thing with medication. Liquid dosing is far worse to handle than popping a pill. Next best in an injection. Which is the easiest.Which is kinda like the newer 120vac band heater devices.Those for sure with a tab quick drop in the cup and turn upside down would be way better than measuring each dose with a scoup.
I may be messed up but spending .20 cents a dose for OA to treat for mites is extremely reasonable to me just like paying to purchase a wand over losing just 1 colony AND no guess work because its weighed out each dose.
Besides, being American Im naturally lazy and wanting quicker and better ways to do things.
OAD is being taken over by OAV as its so much easier and quicker and does no harm to the bees.
Ive starved way more colonies from being lazy and dumb and not reading the bees than from any treatment from using any form of OA.
50 years ago I sprayed diesel fuel around my hives to kill grass and weeds. Bad mistake. I used Carbolic Acid for ridding bees out of honey supers. Bad Choice. I used moth balls to store supers and brood comb.Bad again. IIf I had hot hives which in todays world are okay to work, I sprikled my smoker fuel with Ammonium Nitrate. Bad mistake.
We all do things but its how we improve and invest to get better that makes it all better for all of us.If someone imports those tabs from the Europeans and charge .25 over their .20 a dose to make a nickel a dose I guarantee they will sell.


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## mgstei1

jwcarlson said:


> Well, they had a bit of a head start.
> 
> Seems like maybe you should consider making a move though, Europe sounds like a good fit to you.
> 
> Re: the tabs, it's a great idea. I just don't see why it's difficult to measure out a quarter teaspoon. What's the "guesswork" here? Bakers have been measuring quantities like that for centuries without need for a pill form to make their products. Of course Europeans have been baking for centuries longer than Americans though. Maybe they have baking soda in pill form over there?


Remember we are all immigrants and we all brought better ideas over or our ancestors did. Mine are from Austria.But I give credit to where credit deserves and we are centuries behind.
I liked the idea of a single tab dose and with my fumbling hands, bad eyesite, in PPE, handling an acid, and for .20 cents its my best choice. I like options.
I feel bad when any beek loses any of his colonies for any reason. Even if from starvation. Ive done it and after 50 years with the bees I'll probly do it again.


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## clyderoad

mgstei1 said:


> Remember we are all immigrants and we all brought better ideas over or our ancestors did. Mine are from Austria.But I give credit to where credit deserves and we are centuries behind.


all better ideas? centuries behind? 
are you making this stuff up?

50 years of feeling bad about colonies that perish, that sucks. In the first 4 years or so of my 20 I came to accept that some colonies
are going to be lost every year for one reason or another. The way of the bees (and everything else for that matter) here, there and everywhere. How have you been able to stay in it for 50 years?


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## mgstei1

clyderoad said:


> all better ideas? centuries behind?
> are you making this stuff up?
> 
> 50 years of feeling bad about colonies that perish, that sucks. In the first 4 years or so of my 20 I came to accept that some colonies
> are going to be lost every year for one reason or another. The way of the bees (and everything else for that matter) here, there and everywhere. How have you been able to stay in it for 50 years?


My opinion on the centuries. But as Americans the countries that have kept bees for years should be our mentors.
Back in 60's beekeepers had wax moths to worry over. saw a little chalkbrood, never any european or american Foulbrood, no mites, no beetles, fireants just cranking up, no Rasberry ants,but plenty of wax moths and that was worse pests.
i remember having same queen for 4-5 years in colonies. Walkaway splits was best way to gain colonies.
Back then also bees were local as I never received a "shipped" queen.
AND there were more bees in my area for sure on floral and trees.
This thread is off subject now but Amazon OA may have killed his hives and the OA may have had a an unknown contamination of some kind.Or starvation, or something from mites or maybe something new. Always have open mind dealing with bees.


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## jim lyon

mgstei1 said:


> Back in 60's beekeepers had wax moths to worry over. saw a little chalkbrood, never any european or american Foulbrood, no mites, no beetles, fireants just cranking up, no Rasberry ants,but plenty of wax moths and that was worse pests.
> .


No AFB in the 60's? Thats not my recollection at all. Perhaps in the Texas heat the wax moths simply consumed the infected hives?


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## clyderoad

mgstei1 said:


> My opinion on the centuries. But as Americans the countries that have kept bees for years should be our mentors.
> Back in 60's beekeepers ..........


You are right, this is off course so I'll add- Maybe the Amazon OA wasn't OA at all. Could be repackaged something else.

I respect your opinion but I don't think American beekeepers play second fiddle to anyone, anywhere.

Yes, times have changed, conditions have changed, pests and ailments have changed- what hasn't?
Open mind dealing with bees, now there we agree 100%. 
I try to learn from the past, prepare for the future, and live in the present.

Happy Holiday's to you!


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## msl

" But as Americans the countries that have kept bees for years should be our mentors."
bahahahahah let us not forget who modernized the hive and ushered in a new era of beekeeping!

We are (mostly) European descendants keeping (mostly) European bees, our forefathers came over with the state of the art equipment, techniques, and beekeeping knowledge for the time if it wasn't for us "uneducated" (by your view) Americans the Europeans would still be keeping in skeps....lol:lpf:

I am not saying we can't learn from outhers....but that statement is a bit silly


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## Stephenpbird

Forgiven said:


> Really? Which ones?


Austria and Switzerland.


Ha we some great laws too. How about this one. I am allowed to buy and use 60% Formic acid as a mite treatment BUT if I want to use 85% Formic acid , which we have been using for years, I now have to get a prescription from a registered vet and the vet must instruct me how to apply it. Most have no idea about beekeeping let alone treatments, lucky for us most vets charge a nominal fee are are happy to get you on your way.


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## Eduardo Gomes

Stephen do you know any reliable sources on the net about how to treat with 85% formic acid? Thanks!


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## aunt betty

Savogran wood bleach? I may have used it (allegedly). 

If you want to be legal legal you have to purchase an Oxalic Acid product that is labeled for use on honey bees. Some sort of federal law says you have to use products for the intended use as labeled.


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## Stephenpbird

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Stephen do you know any reliable sources on the net about how to treat with 85% formic acid? Thanks!


Eduardo most use this off the shelf dispenser http://www.biovet.ch/en/Imkerei/liebig-dispenser.html
I have used it and it gives excellent results *IF *the weather/temperature is within the recommended range. That is the Achilles heal when using Formic acid. 
They about 6 euros so not cheap, using a medical dropper bottle works just a well with the right size paper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmhN8TtD5GA


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## svarog

When applying oxal acid make sure to follow these criterias:
-2 grams per hive (Or 3 in some cases)
-Temperature should not drop under 180 degrees celsius!


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## sjj

AG Fresh said:


> ... know the purity ...


Some say: 

know the freshness!

For OAD buy a fresh stuff. Not older than 3 years.


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## Eduardo Gomes

Stephenpbird said:


> Eduardo most use this off the shelf dispenser http://www.biovet.ch/en/Imkerei/liebig-dispenser.html


Thank you Stephen.


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## emrude

aunt betty said:


> Savogran wood bleach? I may have used it (allegedly).
> 
> If you want to be legal legal you have to purchase an Oxalic Acid product that is labeled for use on honey bees. Some sort of federal law says you have to use products for the intended use as labeled.


Right next to the one that says "Do not remove this label under penalty of law."
I want to make it clear that I have never removed a label, and I only use Savogran wood bleach as a woodworker. :no::no:


Sorry about your bees. 

Mary


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## AG Fresh

sjj said:


> Some say:
> 
> know the freshness!
> 
> For OAD buy a fresh stuff. Not older than 3 years.


Thats a great call, I will definately check the date on the bottle!


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## snapper1d

I would really like to know how many people really believe the EPA is sitting out there watching their hives waiting for you to come and treat them and look to see what your are using and where it came from plus looking to see if you have removed the labels.People dont worry so much and just take care of your bees.You will enjoy them and be a lot happier!!! The EPA has much much bigger fish they would rather catch than a hobby beekeeper.


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## Mike Gillmore

sjj said:


> Some say:
> 
> know the freshness!
> 
> For OAD buy a fresh stuff. Not older than 3 years.


This is something I have never thought about. I didn't realize Oxalic Acid was perishable or had an expiration date. How does it "go bad"?


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## Dave Burrup

It is hygroscopic. When it becomes wet it does not sublimate properly. I do not understand they why. It would seem to me that applying heat would drive off the water and not be a problem, but apparently it is. Maybe the addition of water changes the molecule. ???


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## sc-bee

mgstei1 said:


> I liked the idea of a single tab dose and with my fumbling hands, bad eyesite, in PPE, handling an acid, and for .20 cents its my best choice. I like options.


 Go to the pharmacy and get the smallest pill bottle(s) they have. Ahead of time Measure 1 gram/1/4 tsp doses in each bottle.
A lot of bottles will fit in a gallon zip lock. Not a 20 cent pill but in a pill bottle


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## Richard Cryberg

Mike Gillmore said:


> This is something I have never thought about. I didn't realize Oxalic Acid was perishable or had an expiration date. How does it "go bad"?


Stored in the original glass or plastic bottle from the manufacturer and held at room temperature oxalic acid is going to be fine for thousands of years. I have some that is 25 years old that is just fine. It is too acidic to allow anything to grow on it. It does not spontaneously degrade all by itself at room temp.

There may be an expiration date on the container. That is meaningless drivel. The government will not accept expiration dates older than two or three years so manufacturers put a date on that is acceptable to the government so they can sell to the government. Table salt will have such a short expiration date on it and we all know it does not degrade in millions of years. If it did we would not have salt mines.

Dick


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## Kuro

I am not a chemist but I guess if you let your OA powder (hygroscopic) wet, it will degrade to something someday (oxalic acid in aqueous solution is not super-stable (https://www.apimondia.com/congresses/2001/Papers/266.pdf). I keep my original bottle indoors in dry, cool, dark place. I transfer the amount needed to a small bottle to take outside and throw it away after finishing OAV treatment for the season.


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## BadBeeKeeper

sc-bee said:


> Go to the pharmacy and get the smallest pill bottle(s) they have. Ahead of time Measure 1 gram/1/4 tsp doses in each bottle.
> A lot of bottles will fit in a gallon zip lock. Not a 20 cent pill but in a pill bottle


Hey, that's a good idea...though there may be something cheaper than pill bottles.

When I used to do Revolutionary War re-enactments, we had small plastic vials (smaller that the muzzle of a flintlock rifle/musket) which we would pre-load with a measured amounts of black powder. Loading was faster and easier, just dump a vial down the barrel and ram a patch, then prime the pan; no guesswork, all charges equal.

I'd bet that such clear plastic vials would be cheaper than pill bottles.


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## mgstei1

Tabs from the Italians. Way easier and exact charge. Europeans still the SME's using OA.


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## mac

I think his table is for the dribble method. 45 grams ox to 600 L water 600 grams sugar. So I went to west marine to buy wood bleach and they had Oxalic acid and I guess it must b the pure stuff Randy was talking about. So I mixed a batch and did 3 hives one with a sticky board for a count. And I killed bees and more bees and more bees. Sooooooooooo 7/10 of 45 grams is what I should have used after going back and re reading his info. Anyone know what 7/10 of 45 is??? Like 6 grams I think


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## clyderoad

31.5 g.


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## mac

31.5 thanks


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## johno

I have got to the end of my OA and ordered more, on opening the container I found the OA looks quite damp not like the stuff I had before. The stuff I had before would form lumps but if the container was well shaken it would return to a powder and would be easy to pour. This new stuff will not shake to a powder, lumps have to be physically broken and remain damp. The dose in the scoop has to be knocked out of the scoop. As I have just vaporized 11 colonies we will wait and see. I am also heating the OA to about 100F to see if it will dry out. I also went to the local store and bought a container of Savogram to check and found it to be wet as well, the last time I used Savogram it was quite dry so I am wondering if there is a new supplier on the block.
Johno


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## snl

johno said:


> This new stuff will not shake to a powder, lumps have to be physically broken and remain damp. The dose in the scoop has to be knocked out of the scoop. I also went to the local store and bought a container of Savogram to check and found it to be wet as well, the last time I used Savogram it was quite dry so I am wondering if there is a new supplier on the block.
> Johno


What you're describing is all I ever purchased, tho not to the extent that it had to be knocked out of the scoop. It was always lumpy and needed to broken. I've never had Savogran that was quite dry, it was always lumpy and reformed into lumps once I had broken it down and it say a while.


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## johno

The OA seems to be drying out a little in a hot box. Maybe in sales the higher the moisture content the better the profit.
Johno


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## Green Tractor

orthoman said:


> ... I noticed it has been fairly cold where you live - not much higher than 42 over the past several days, not sure past that. ...


In central NY that's T-Shirt weather (I grew up in Syracuse). 

Sorry, I am not picking on you. I've just had the blessings to live in NY, Southern CA, mid-Atlantic, Deep South, overseas...you get the idea. It's funny to see what "cold" means to people. In complete honesty, my blood has thinned considerably since I left Southern Canada (Upstate NY) and I've gone pretty wimpy compared to my kin left in the NY tundra. So again, not mocking you, but 42 in February in Central New York is known as a heat wave.

I'm in the much warmer mid-Atlantic now and run open SBB all year. It does get cold here (below zero) but not as long as up north. My issue is more humidity than temp, which is why I keep them ventilated nicely. We started winter with five hives and have five strong hives still (plus brood). So far, so good.

From what I remember of your neck of CA, damp and/or chilly days are not uncommon.


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## AG Fresh

Just wanted to update this thread:

Coming into March now, and every hive I treated with Brushy MTN OA is thriving (8 hives). Every hive I treated with Amazon OA is dead (5 hives). The treatments were done roughly 2 days apart in similar weather. 3/5 hives died immediately, the other 2 hives died a week or 2 later after the populations were decimated by the OAV.. I contacted the OA people and they assured me NOTHING is added to their product and it is in its purest form. I so badly want to know why my hives perished. Could it have been:
*Freshness of OA (no born on date on container)
*Water mixing with the OA (from cooling the wand)
*Overdose from different purities or densities (I used measuring spoons instead of a scale)

Any input is appreciated. Thanks!


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## dlbrightjr

Wow. Sorry to hear about your trouble. It leaves me a bit confused. I didn't see it mentioned, but, did you use the same vaporizer for both sets? Did you use a commercial or homemade gadget? I think I read that you did not use the two separately sourced OA on the same day. Was there any difference in the two sets of hives? Was there any difference in the way you used your vaporizer? Was there any difference in the day, weather, ect.? Just curious for my own knowledge. Not trying to pick a fight. Thanks.


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## AG Fresh

I was using the $165 vaporizer wand that most suppliers sell (the good one), weather was similar both days, all of the hives that were killed were VERY strong hives (2 deeps + 1 medium each). The only difference I can think of are the stands the hives were on were open on the bottom so I actually used plywood to try and keep the OAV from blowing out sideways from wind. If anything that should have made the OAV less concentrated and less poisonous. Most of my hives are on two 4x4x8's with plywood on top but these didn't have the plywood so they were just sitting on the 4x4x8's.


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## dlbrightjr

Thanks for the reply. If I get the chance this fall and have the resources I will try to replicate what happened to you on a small scale. A couple few nucs with the Amazon stuff. Very curious. Thanks.


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## dlbrightjr

From everything you've shared I do want to add a professional opinion. I would not find it hard to believe that you have a bad batch from a foreign source. A lot of medications are now sourced from overseas and for along time the recalls on these were ridiculous. Several per week. It takes no leap of faith at all for me to believe that you might have gotten a bad lot. I suspect that you could go out and kill all the rest of the hives you have with that particular batch all the while everyone on this forum could order it and have no problems. It sounds like a very likely explanation to me.


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## AG Fresh

If I did receive a bad batch do you think there is any way of receiving compensation for damages from those responsible? Or ways of testing the purity to prove their oversight/negligence? The website says the product is to be used for all "lawful purposes" which would include beehive application under the law. Though it doesn't specifically say anything about bees, this product could still be more harmful to humans as well, even if used under more "normal" circumstances...


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## dlbrightjr

Sorry. The short answer is not a chance. It's going to be one of those things you get to chalk up to experience.


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## snl

If you really want to know, send the Amazon OA to a lab and have it tested. Using OA from Amazon in a beehive is not lawful. Only BM has the legally labeled OA for use in a beehive.


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## dlbrightjr

snl said:


> If you really want to know, send the Amazon OA to a lab and have it tested. Using OA from Amazon in a beehive is not lawful. Only BM has the legally labeled OA for use in a beehive.


That would certainly a large part of the debate to rest. Do you know of one that is affordable?


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## snl

dlbrightjr said:


> That would certainly a large part of the debate to rest. Do you know of one that is affordable?


No, but perhaps a member will respond.


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## dlbrightjr

Thanks. I think if he is willing this would be a great route for the original poster to pursue. It would lay to rest that part of the equation and may explain the cause or at least allow him to eliminate the OA as the cause.


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## AG Fresh

I could probably contact the supplier of the safety data sheet found here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BytvLpWzrE3ZU19kOEgzOEtkYkE/view\

EcoClean Solutions
47 Heisser ct
Farmingdale NY 11735
888-565-7069 / 877-416-6880


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## Richard Cryberg

AG Fresh said:


> If I did receive a bad batch do you think there is any way of receiving compensation for damages from those responsible? Or ways of testing the purity to prove their oversight/negligence? The website says the product is to be used for all "lawful purposes" which would include beehive application under the law. Though it doesn't specifically say anything about bees, this product could still be more harmful to humans as well, even if used under more "normal" circumstances...


If the package it came in did not list an EPA registry number for use on bee hives and directions for use on bee hives it is illegal to use it on bee hives. As you used a product for an illegal use you are liable and no one else has the slightest liability.


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## username00101

AG Fresh said:


> This was my second year treating my bees with OAV. I've been using the stuff from Brushy Mountain with amazing success. 1/4 teaspoon = 1 gram of OA and 1 gram per brood box so typically 1/2 teaspoon per hive. I was treating 2 weeks ago and ran out of Oxalic Acid with 5 hives to go so I had to order more. I went on amazon and saw reviews from beekeepers saying this worked for their varroa mites so I bought it! I went back out and treated my last 5 hives. 2 days later I went out to check the mite drops on my bottom boards and 3 of the hives showed NOTHING.. not even wax cappings. 3/5 of the hives were completely killed, with bees still in their cluster and butts sticking out of cells.
> 
> This stuff says its 99.6% pure, does anyone know the purity of the Brushy Mountain oxalic acid?
> 
> View attachment 29262
> View attachment 29263
> View attachment 29264


I used that exact product a while back with horrible, horrible results.

I would strongly recommend NOT buying that brand from Amazon.


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## crofter

Lots of things besides OA would do for wood bleach. Used for the advertised purpose it would go un noticed. Lye, tsp, etc. deadly for bees though. It is not hard to reproduce MSDS data sheets and stick on a container. That does not guarantee what is stated on the container is what really is inside. I have seen knockoffs that when taken out of the shrinkwrap expose that they are not even close to being functional in any way!


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## AHudd

Inactive or inert ingredients, I think someone touched on it earlier as we know can range anywhere from talc to cellulose. There is no telling what was in the OA the OP received.

Alex


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## dudelt

I have always used Savogran brand with good results, until last year. I will admit that I have seen some variance in their product too. I got a batch last year that had an odd consistency when compared to other containers I have bought. The consistency was more like baby powder and barely clumped from the moisture in it. If you have used OA you should know what I mean. After vaporizing, it left a lot of black residue in the vaporizing pan. The worst part is it did not do a good job killing the mites and based on the drops, I was sure I had very few mites. It was a poor winter this year for hive survival compared to other years. I looked at the product the other day and even though the container is not well sealed, there is still very little clumping of the product. I live in a very rainy area and it should be pretty solid by now. It needs to go. The bottom line is, buyer beware. It pays to know the product you are buying. If something looks off, think twice about using it.


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