# Warre hive comb collapse



## honeybeekeeper

Yeah you need to get in there and hang it back up! Either tie it, clamp it, wire it and/or a sling! They will reattach it to the top frame. Is it hot in your area or is the hive in direct sun all day?? Make sure the slatted bottom rack is free of any debree for better ventilation and that you have ventilation around the roof! Make sure they have water near by at all times so they can cool down the hive!


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## camero7

That is exactly why I'm moving away from TBH's. I had several honey combs collapse in the heat and it's not a lot of fun digging them out of the hive. I converted a KTBH recently and I'm going to convert my TTBH next spring.


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## honeybeekeeper

Did the buzzing sound get louder as you reached in there to grab the comb???..HAHAHA


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## beez2010

A2,

Sorry I did not see this sooner to respond to it for you. I'm not sure how serious this situation is, not having seen it or heard a better desciption, but honey or syrup filled combs are next to impossible to deal with. I feel your best options are to remove the combs and leave them some distance away from the hive for bee feed or do nothing. Comb collapses happen all the time in feral nests and the bees just deal with it.

The main thing I feel you need to do is to correct the situation which caused the collapse in the first place. If you have any insulating material in the quilt, remove it....all of it. If your hive gets direct sun all day, then I would also consider painting the top of the roof white to reflect heat away. And, yes, make sure your bees have access to clean water. Call me if you need anymore advice. My # is on my website.

Regards,

Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## A2 Bee Man

Thanks, Chris . . . . . the hive is in shade from 3 PM on, so perhaps I need to provide more mid-day shade. I'll clean up the mess and let them draw more comb.


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## Maine_Beekeeper

Leaving collapsed comb in the is irresponsible beekeeping. 
You need to keep your hives inspect-able for disease. 

Get in there and deal with the collapsed comb. Either remove it or straighten it out/string it up. Do not put the honey "out in the yard" for the bees to rob - that causes much more substantial robbing issues . 
If you have to junk it, junk it. Better yet crush and strain it and appreciate how hard the bees worked to put it up.

As my husband would say "time to put on your big girl beekeeper panties". 
(so to speak)

ha ha

sometimes you just have to muscle in and deal with it. 

Best, 
-Erin


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## A2 Bee Man

Like I said . . . . I'll clean up the mess and move the hive to a shadier location.


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## beez2010

Uh, excuse me Maine Beekeeper, but since you have absolutely no idea how severe this "comb collapse" is, how can you say it would be "irresponsible" to leave it be? The fact is, if the comb had simply come loose and laid against the other combs, as well as being supported by the top bars of the box below it, the bees probably would have handled the situation on there own. There would have been a small issue separating the boxes at harvest time, but that's probably it. It is only for A2s curiosity that he became aware of the situation and, I am sorry to say this, but his actions to make this discovery may have made the situation worse. There are other ways to recognize and remedy these problems, such as checking in the late evening (after dark) to see if the bees are bearding on the landing. If so....it's too hot in the hive. Action should be taken to cool it down. I have no idea how "bad" it looks in there, so I left it to his judgement to decide whether or not it could be left alone with only actions being taken to cool things down inside. It's a Warre hive....it is inherently not inspectable. As far as diseases go, any time a hive is opened and monkeyed with by beekeepers, the chances that the bees will become diseased increases. Trying to sling or tie up a half-melted, syrup or honey filled comb covered with bees would most likely only lead to a bigger mess and a bunch of squashed bees, some of whom might be carrying pathogens or spores that would be released by the thousands, or tens of thousands, or millions....to infect the rest of the hive and cause god knows what.....undoubtedly something that alot of beekeepers would immediately get excited about and start "treating" with meds and then start inspecting more often to monitor, which would probably cause more problems. I had a heck of alot more problems keeping bees back in the day, when I was more "responsible".

I have removed I don't know how many nests from peoples' homes and I almost always find at least one collapsed comb when I do. It happens....the bees manage.

Feeding bees honey from comb away from all of the hives does not induce robbing. At least it never has all of the times that I have ever done it. Unless there is reason to suspect disease, there is nothing wrong with feeding honey from within an apiary to all of the bees in that same apiary.

I am certain that A2s reluctance to go in there and "fix" things for the bees is due to his desire to try to let the bees take care of themselves, naturally, not because he doesn't have the testacular fortitude to do it.

A2, if you don't have any insulating material in the quilt and you are still concerned about over-heating, place some shims (craft sticks cut small) between the quilt and the mosquito netting to create a vent slot above the upper box. This will almost certainly suffice to keep things cool. I wouldn't recommend moving the hive or jostling things around much until the weather cools down some. This would be to risk more collapsing comb. I also assume that the screened bottom is wide open (??). If not, remove whatever is in there that has it blocked off. If the hive is near any kind of building (like within a few feet) or if there is anything other than grass around it, this may be your main problem. Even black dirt without vegetation surrounding a hive can cause it to overheat. Also, if you haven't already done your clean-up, it might be a good idea to do it in the A.M., when things are cooler so that it isn't such a gooey endeavor. 

Good luck to you.

Chris


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## bigbearomaha

> Leaving collapsed comb in the is irresponsible beekeeping.





> time to put on your big girl beekeeper panties


I'm sure as a shining example of master beekeepers, this kind of attitude was part of the coursework.

"how to be judgmental and belittling to others"

As you can see, attitudes such as this help the situation so much and definitely make others really care about what you have to say.

Way to go.

Good luck on your cleanup A2, every type of hive, even Langs, have comb collapses depending on circumstances. do your best and keep on going.

Big Bear


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## brac

beez2010 said:


> As far as diseases go, any time a hive is opened and monkeyed with by beekeepers, the chances that the bees will become diseased increases.
> Chris


Maybe we should outlaw inspectable hives.


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## beez2010

Outlawing inspectable hives would not make less sense than outlawing uninspectable ones. In any case, just because a hive is inspectable, that doesn't mean that it should be micro-managed by humans.

Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## Maine_Beekeeper

I welcome the criticism of my language, just trying to lighten up the subject. I apologize to anyone who took offense.

Fact of the matter is collapsed comb presents an uninspectable situation as far as brood disease goes and that is a critical part of good honeybee management. As A2 said, he's on comb clean up. That's fantastic. But it is important to communicate to readers that his is not a "what should I do in this situation" kind of problem. Collapsed comb needs to be straightened or removed. 

I do not speak for all master beekeepers anyone else. What the EAS certification does mean that I have proven that I have a basic set of fundamental skills in handling honey bees and understandings of the nature and biology of honey bees, bee culture and honey gathering that the EAS program and its founders find to be necessary to promoting good bee management and successful beekeeping. What I tell my beginner students is that Master Beekeeper certification means that what MB's say wont be a total load of "bs". That said, there are lots of Master Beekeepers doing lots of different things with their colonies and their operations. We all do things differently and no one who knows me is going to try to tell you that I am anything but a shoot from the hip tell it as I see it kind of beekeeper.

As far as the situation at hand, 
Warre hives are fine.
Collapsed comb happens in Warre, TB, wild hives, and sometimes even frames hives. Bottom line is as good beekeepers we must inspect often enough to discover the collapsed comb when we find it we either fix it or remove it in order to be able to inspect the colony for AFB and other diseases. If the bees could fix it, they would. Same thing goes for neglected hives where the bees have built up into the feeder box. 
Needs to be fixed. 


A2 is on fixing it and that's great. the topic is relevant and needs to be shared as most will come across this situation at some point. 
Fix or remove messed up comb. That's the answer to the question. 

And for the rest, Simple, gentle well handled inspections do not increase the chance of disease. Strong colonies robbing out weak colonies increase the chance of disease - drift between colonies increase disease, moving frames of comb from weak to strong increases disease, dirty old equipment spreads disease. 

Good beekeepers inspecting colonies responsibly prevents disease spread through healthy management.

Best to all and your bees, 
hope to see you at EAS next month, 
-Erin


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## Countryboy

I am not a fan of government bee inspectors. I haven't been impressed with the knowledge or competence of ones I have seen. I believe education goes a lot further than government regulations in solving bee problems.

With that said, I agree that you need to remove collapsed combs. A responsible beekeeper works and manipulates their hives. Collapsed combs fixed by bees results in cross combs and makes your job miserable and tedious. I want to get in the hive, do what I need to do, and get out in the least amount of time necessary. I don't want to have to mess around dealing with screwed up combs every time I try to work a hive.


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## beez2010

This I believe:

"I would really like a hive to be a book but I am sure that it should remain almost always shut. Bees like solitude. Therefore opening the hive goes against the bees. It obliges them to make a continuous over exertion to re-warm the brood chamber. Modern methods, in other ways that I speak about in my book, also force the bees into harmful overwork. And overwork leads to weakening and weakening makes them more prone to contracting any disease. It is the same with bees as it is with people.

Diseases develop increasingly in modern apiaries, above all foulbrood, the awful foulbrood. People call in vain for visits by distinguished veterinarians, for remedies from knowledgeable chemists, for registrations and sacrifices from beekeepers. It is the cause that should be eliminated. Let us stop going against the instincts of bees. Let us stop ignoring her needs. Let us obtain healthy bees and, above all, let us not feed bees on sugar.

The writer, Caillas, condemned the People's Hive because it prevented in a way almost all application of modern methods which are the future of beekeeping. But I do not hesitate to point out that modern methods will lead beekeeping to destruction."

"The People's (Warre) Hive is criticized for almost completely preventing the application of modern methods which are the future of our beekeeping. But it is my opinion that these modern methods are the death of beekeeping. I emphasize the following facts:

The bee has survived for centuries in hives with fixed comb without suffering.
Things are no longer the same with the framed hive and modern methods. 'It is a certain fact', says Berlefech, 'that the invasion by foulbrood in Germany dates from the same time as the framed hive. Before this time there was very little manipulation of hives, foulbrood was hardly known about as it was so rare; but, since then, it is as well known as it is frequent’. Since this German’s cry of warning, we notice in magazines, in manuals, at apicultural events that beekeepers are having to fight against foulbrood more and more. And they talk of fighting against this disease by creating a costly official bureaucracy, which will be a danger because it will carry the disease from a sick colony to a healthy one.

Let us not go against the laws of nature. Let us leave the germs to accomplish their mission, which is to get rid of what is useless, and let us give our bees the strength to fight against these microbes. We see strong men untouched by tuberculosis germs, whereas weak men often give them favorable conditions for development. All in spite of having encountered tuberculosis germs in public places, on trams, carriages etc., in equal measure. Bees must be similar to men. And the People's Hive and its method strengthens the bees through continual selection, by natural food, by eliminating all overworking of the bees and by the very fact that it protects the bees from foulbrood. Prevention is better than cure.

I am convinced that modern methods, which tend towards the intensive, lead quite simply to the degeneration of the bee. Since we have forced hens to lay more eggs, there are illnesses in the hen house which were formerly unknown. It will be the same in the hives."

Abbe Emile Warre--Beekeeping for All.


Now, I don't think that the present condition of the honeybees of the world is any big secret. Maybe...just maybe...Warre was on to something. Modern methods of beekeeping continue to evolve (thoughbeit slowly), but the bees continue to decline rapidly.


Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## bigbearomaha

Erin, I appreciate your coming back and flushing out your comments more thoroughly. however..



> I do not speak for all master beekeepers anyone else.


I have to disagree with you on this.

Every time you add this to your signature, you are speaking as "a" Master Beekeeper. and "Master Beekeepers" as a group as recognized by the EAS, who bestowed said title on you and is the group that recognizes that title in the group of people holding it.

You make it public, then you are bringing it to the table in your discussions.

I'm glad you took it upon yourself to gain more education about honey bees and are available to the EAS to be called upon to help promote beekeeping and helping others in their beekeeping journey.

I just ask that those carrying 'the badge' bee careful how they say things that may have the opposite effect.

Big Bear


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## dcross

A2 Bee Man said:


> I just noticed that the top section of my Warre hive has suffered some significant comb collapse. (The bottom two sections are fine.) I am inclined to do nothing about it and just let the bees deal with the problem. Has anyone had a similar experience? Advice?


Would that top section be harvested this year? If so, I would just leave it for now.


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## Maine_Beekeeper

Big Bear
I hear what you're saying. 

noted.


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## beez2010

dcross said:


> Would that top section be harvested this year? If so, I would just leave it for now.


Yes, with the flow we're having it will probably will be. Thank you. Those were my first thoughts also. It's not a brood chamber nor will it be.

Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## Countryboy

_The bee has survived for centuries in hives with fixed comb without suffering._

Without suffering? What about Isle of Wight disease? or numerous other diseases?

_'It is a certain fact', says Berlefech, 'that the invasion by foulbrood in Germany dates from the same time as the framed hive. Before this time there was very little manipulation of hives, foulbrood was hardly known about as it was so rare; but, since then, it is as well known as it is frequent’. _

In fixed comb hives, comb and colonies were routinely destroyed. Was the rarity of foulbrood due to fixed comb hives, or was it due to regular destruction of combs and colonies?


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## beez2010

Countryboy said:


> [Without suffering? What about Isle of Wight disease? or numerous other diseases?
> 
> [In fixed comb hives, comb and colonies were routinely destroyed. Was the rarity of foulbrood due to fixed comb hives, or was it due to regular destruction of combs and colonies?


Well, Isle of Wight disease (tracheal mites) was first discovered in 1904, at least 50 years after the introduction and subsequent widespread use of framed hives, so I am not sure what your point is there. But I am sure Warre did not mean to be taken so literally as to imply bees had never gotten sick before, simply that they were alot better off.

Your second point is valid....though, it was not the destruction of colonies that resulted in better bee health, but rather the regular destruction of brood comb, something that almost completely ceased with the advent of framed hives. It is only during the last several years that (some) beekeepers have taken up the practice of culling out old brood combs every couple of years to help keep the bees healthier (a practice that, by the way, will likely lead to higher varroa populations in hives if beekeepers continue to use 5.4 mm foundation in the brood chamber).

By managing hives as Warre did (nadiring) the brood is raised in the same combs for only a few cycles (at most) and all wax is regularly replaced by the bees as the brood nest moves downward and the honey and wax are harvested from the top. Thus, perpetually clean wax with no need to destroy colonies. 

I should add that if you go back and read the excerpt that I posted again, you will find that it is not the framed hive that is looked down upon by Warre so much as are the "modern methods" of beekeeping that are associated with it. He is simply saying that fixed comb hives mostly prevent the application of these, what he sees as harmful, intensive methods. 

Warre believed in hive manipulation alot more than most people think. His bees produced sectioned honey in supers, he performed splits and artificial swarms regularly, caged queens during the nectar flow, etc. Many people who "know" about Warre's methods have never read the literature that he produced (at least they haven't read past page 40 of BFA). The thing that he absolutely found destructive is the idea that our hives (mainly the brood chambers) need to opened, disassembled, scraped and inspected every couple of weeks. For what? It is the theory of "if it isn't broke, fix it anyway" that is harmful. Then if, after relentless manipulation by the beekeeper the bees do become sick, the beekeeper thinks "Gee, it's a good thing that I was inspecting regularly and found this problem".

Bees are far more resistant to disease than are humans. Do you go to your doctor for a physical exam every couple of weeks? 


Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## Beethinking

While I've never had a comb collapse on its own in any of my 12 Warre hives, I have broken off a few combs on accident -- usually in the top boxes -- and like Chris and others have said, just prop it in there for the bees to fix and remove it when it's time to harvest. 

Cheers,
Matt


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## trentfysty

Chris,

I couldn't agree with you more. I grew up around langs and was taught the methods of bi-weekly inspections to look for brood, proper stores, that drones were the enemy and such. I didn't think much of it then because there was not the information readily available like there is today. The growing popularity of different types of hives has brought many other ideas to the table yet when I tell a lang user that I have top bars and warres they look at me like I am crazy and their first reaction is it won't work.

Like I have said in other posts on this and other forums there is a place for all types of hives and I think the most important aspect is what they beekeeper is comfortable with. I am a proponent of the Warre hive because it is fairly easy to use, seems to keep the bees happy and has produced good amounts of honey for my needs. I will say that a lift is very handy when adding boxes especially the 4th box . Bees are amazingly resourceful and I think we are the ones that think "oh they can't fix that" or "if I don't do this they won't survive". Well look at what they accomplish in making the honey. How many millions of flowers do the visit to gather nectar and pollen, how many watering holes do the visit to cool their hives? They can do amazing things so why not let them take care of themselves as much as possible?

As for the comb issue that stated this thread. If it's in the upper boxes that are used for honey stores then just leave it and worry about it in a month or two when you harvest that box. As others have said you can go in and prop it up but that is going to get the bees angry as the tend to become more protective of their honey as the season moves on. If it requires you splitting the boxes to get to it then you introduce other issues such as breaking the propolis seal that will need to be rebuilt by the bees, possibly breaking more comb as you separate the boxes etc. 

Some have raised issues with Erin and her certification. She has devoted many hours to gaining that certification and I respect her for that. She should be regarded as an expert for framed type hives. She is giving advice based upon her years of training and experience working with langs, don't fault her for that. As Warre hives are fairly "new" as far as people actually using them regularly in many different areas there isn't a lot of resources available compared to that of lang hives. If we all continue to keep bees in warre style hives, share the information, both good and bad, think of where we will be in ten years. We have much to learn regarding the advantages and disadvantages of warre hives. There isn't a perfect hive out there for all situations and we all need to learn from each other and with that shared knowledge help the bees to thrive rather than parish.


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## bigbearomaha

> Some have raised issues with Erin and her certification.


Learn to read. No one took issue with Erin's certification.

One (me) took issue with how someone with said certification represented that certification with words posted by them.

I appreciate the fact that erin posted back and understanding the point I was making. The issue was resolved amiably, I think and if you want to beat a dead horse on the issue, don't take what happened out of context.

I applaud anyone wanting to take on a Warre hive and being part of the re-surgence of the methodology. it's not the status quo and there is a lot to get used to.

Erin's advice as re-stated is a fine example of the good information available by those people who seek out said certifications to make themselves better beekeepers and better able to help others become better beekeepers.

We now return you our regularly scheduled thread.

Big Bear


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## ezrahug

I just "fixed" two fallen combs yesterday by wiring the comb on the bars. It was dusk following a rain and the ladies were surprisingly mellow. No veil pinging or anything despite my manhandling of the brood comb.

So what would happen if one did leave one or two bars of fallen comb?


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## trentfysty

bigbearomaha said:


> Learn to read. No one took issue with Erin's certification.
> 
> One (me) took issue with how someone with said certification represented that certification with words posted by them.
> 
> I appreciate the fact that erin posted back and understanding the point I was making. The issue was resolved amiably, I think and if you want to beat a dead horse on the issue, don't take what happened out of context.


bigbear, you are a little quick to jump on the defensive, and yes I can read. My point was not to take issue with the exchange between the two of you but to make the point that her certification isn't directly related to beekeeping with Warre style hives. I think that is part of the difficulty with Warre hives is that there isn't decades of experience to reference outside of Warre's own writings. The writings, while excellent in detail and such, lack the diversification from different climates and such to help those north or south etc of where he lived in France. What worked for him in France may not work for someone in Arizona with much hotter temps and so on. I apologize in taking your words out of context as you said. It's just that what applies to langs may not apply to warres, KTBH, TTBH and vice versa.


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## A2 Bee Man

Well everyone, I've decided to do nothing with the collapsed comb. As I mentioned earlier, it's concentrated in the upper (top) box of three, so it's not like it's brood comb. My next question is: how many boxes should be left on a Warre hive for winter in Michigan? I wasn't expecting to harvest any honey the first year . . . so should I leave all three boxes on for the winter?


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## beez2010

A2,

If you have a large concentration of bees in the lower box in the late evening (dusk) you should be preparing to add a fourth box. If they have already drawn out comb in the bottom box, you should be hurrying. There is still plenty of nectar to be had in your area. In fact, a very heavy flow may be yet to come depending on your exact surroundings and what the weather does. Just look through the bottom tonight to see exactly what the bottom box looks like, if you don't already know. I can get you another box pretty fast. I would leave the hive as 3 boxes for the winter, but if you have to add a fourth you'll get to remove the top box this year. Most of my new colonies will produce a crop this year (No, that's not typical, it's exceptional). Even if you don't need to harvest it, I would (due to the comb issue) harvest it and then add another (or return that one after processing) to the bottom and then feed before winter to build up stores. You could feed much of that honey back to them if you wish (after you take a small stash for you and your's, of course!). (BTW, the cedar won't hold up perfect, but pretty well and better for the bees not to treat it). Your Welcome!

Chris


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## beez2010

Ezrahug,

First I want to say that if A2 had a KTBH with fallen brood comb, I might have recommended hanging the comb back up. Brood comb, which is much lighter than honeycomb, is relatively easy to repair in a KTBH and the bees might actually be better off with a beekeeper's help. In a KTBH, you have the luxury of being able to move the good combs out of harm's way while working. A2 does not have that option with his Warre, and for collapsed honeycomb it wouldn't be worth the trouble and may actually make things worse (IMO). That's why I recommended junking it (the comb) or leaving it be.

That being said, even though you fixed those combs, the bees still have many of the same problems that they had when it was collapsed. There is dead brood in the comb from the collapse. There is dead brood in the comb from the repair. There is damaged comb, damaged eggs, trapped developing brood that is not dead, but is possibly starving (if not capped). Add to all of this that there is likely foreign materials in the hive (fishing line, etc. ??)that the bees are trying hard to remove. It's not like you did the repair and the bees are already feeling the relief, though I think we all would wish for that as the result of your efforts.

Whether it be from collapsed comb or a cut-out, these situations are extremely hard on the colony. There's a lot of dirty work to be done. If you had left the collapsed brood combs as they were, the results would have been similar in comparison to what you did do, except there likely would have been more dead to carry out and they (the dead) would likely have been harder for the workers to get to. Eventually, the living brood would emerge, the comb would be cleaned of most of the dead and stores before being left to lay where it was as a useless hunk of wax or the bees may have continued to use part of it. If the bees objected to the wax, they would chew it up and carry it out little by little, but they don't. Depending on how it (the collapsed comb) was positioned, new comb would be built above or next to it and life would go on. In a hive, the beekeeper will, of course, eventually want to remove this useless wax.

Remember that paying close attention to your bees' behavior for clues to a hive that is too hot and then correcting that issue before comb collapses occur is the key to really helping the bees. "An ounce of prevention...". Much easier for us as beekeepers, too, if we don't have to make the hard choices or do the dirty work.

I removed a nest from an RV a while back. The owners had discovered the nest when they tried to open the storage compartment under the bed. They apparently caused big time damage when they did that. Below is a link to the pic (I used it on my website to advertise nest removal). This colony was very healthy when I arrived. All of the collapsed combs were empty and easily removed, for the most part. A couple had to be cut loose from the good combs and there was a slight loss of brood and stores. Then came the cut-out and the real devastation! The colony has not been disturbed since their arrival at my apiary and they are finally triving again, but it took a long time and they had to battle DWV for quite while.

http://www.thewarrestore.com/honeybeeremovalservices.htm

Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics


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