# No feeding, no treatments,



## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

SO many factors to take into account.

Condensation, stores, mites, SHB, genetics . . . the list goes on

I'm afraid you're going to have to narrow it down a little bit, and even then I don't think we can give you an accurate answer.


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

Good luck or should I wish you good bees.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

I would say pretty good. We need bees, bees don't need us.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Birdman said:


> I would say pretty good. We need bees, bees don't need us.


I'd say it is impossible to say "pretty good." The most anyone can say with any certainty is that they will either survive or die. They may not need us, but once we take a package of bees and dump them into an enclosure of our choosing, they are there on our terms, we've put them into a situation where, for some period of time perhaps, they _may_ need us. Can you guarantee there will be a natural source of food during their early build-up period? The strongest strain of bees can not survive without nutrition. Can you guarantee there will be no mite build-up? Will you even know?

There are those that feel bees either survive on their own or deserve to die. You are setting up the conditions that requires this philosophy. While the best observer can tell a lot by watching the foragers entering the hive, there is a lot going on in the hive unseen, conditions developing that, if addressed, could save a hive. Personally, I don't like bees dying because of what I would perceive as my neglect. 

What success are others with the same hive and same type of practices in your area having? Without specifics, I'd say your odds of success are 50-50 at best riight now. Best of luck, though. 

Wayne


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

I dont understand why you would bother having bees if your only going to "open" the hive twice a year. As previously mentioned there are many factors amd maladies that come into play regarding the colonies survival throughout the ENTIRE year not just their "first winter".....good luck... just because they are housed in a warre hive does not guarantee your bees survival!!!!

The comment "we need bees, bees dont need us".....Absurd statement....yes we need bees, we are dependant on bees and IMO should one take on the responsibility of keeping bees they should also commit to properly managing the colony and providing assistance and care when neccesary....you cant provide that level of assitance and care opening the box twice a year. :no:


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## green2btree (Sep 9, 2010)

I agree with Specialkayme. To many factors to even throw out a WAG. Did you start with a package or a swarm? (They are NOT the same.) As to are you doing the right thing (Which I realize you didn't ask.) - depends on your reasons for having bees. Are you running an experiment to see what happens? Are you planning to harvest honey? Are you a bee keeper in the classic sense or a bee observer? 

JC


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

peacekeeperapiaries said:


> and IMO should one take on the responsibility of keeping bees they should also commit to properly managing the colony and providing assistance and care when neccesary....you cant provide that level of assitance and care opening the box twice a year. :no:


This is a very subjective statement. I suppose if you were to treat your bees the same as you would your child, one would be into their hive most frequently. However, given that they are insects which have managed to live without our help for a very long time, I'm more inclined to disturb them less, rather than more. I don't inspect my hives near as often as I did when I first started out.

Subjective I say!


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

Ok then there's pretty good chance they will live. On the other hand there's a pretty good chance they might die. My money is on the bee. My hive's have an exit both top and bottom, if they don't like the place I provide they can leave an time. some do.
Most of my hive's are cut outs, which were doing just fine on there own. go bees


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

Barry says, they are insects that have managed to live without our help for a very long time.

While this was true in the past,things have changed now that mites,shb, and many other things that have come into play, starting somewhere in the early 80's.Before the eighties was the good old days fore me, right now is the good old days for new beekeepers starting in.Kind of makes you wonder what's ahead in another thirty years or less doesn't it.:s Jack


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

brooksbeefarm said:


> Barry says, they are insects that have managed to live without our help for a very long time.
> 
> While this was true in the past,things have changed now that mites,shb, and many other things that have come into play, starting somewhere in the early 80's.Before the eighties was the good old days fore me, right now is the good old days for new beekeepers starting in.Kind of makes you wonder what's ahead in another thirty years or less doesn't it.:s Jack


I think that from the the first days of the honey bee, The cave bee to the computer age bee. I think some were in that time. The honey bee has battled worse than shb, mites, or what ever else. Most of the thing that are wrong with bees are caused by MAN.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Personally, for the health of my bees, I wouldn't want a beekeeper next door that only opened their colony once or twice a year.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

And personally, when I look for an out yard, I don't want my bees next to some guy who is treating. It goes both ways.


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## KeyBeeper (Jun 7, 2009)

I'll let you know how it goes.

If they do make it, then they will technically be 1st generation survivor bee's - and stronger than many bee's that need a lot of intervention.

If they don't make it - then they weren't strong enough.

Last time we had a warm spell, they looked pretty strong.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

brooksbeefarm said:


> While this was true in the past,things have changed now that mites,shb, and many other things that have come into play, starting somewhere in the early 80's.


Yes they have changed. And the treatment plan we were given is peaking as well with the dead end in sight.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Birdman said:


> Most of the thing that are wrong with bees are caused by MAN.


So why not stop keeping the bees right now? Remove the MAN from the equation.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

We would have to remove man from earth. We are tring.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> Personally, for the health of my bees, I wouldn't want a beekeeper next door that only opened their colony once or twice a year.


I wish all my hives were feral bees. They would most likley bee more independent. Which came first the bee or the beekeeper. I'm amazed the bee hasn't disapeared with out man :lpf: We don't want chineese honey that has chemicals in it, But we want to put chemicals in our own hive's:scratch:


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Birdman said:


> We would have to remove man from earth.


I'm not talking about all of mankind. I'm talking about you. We are all individuals, making individual contributions to the bees. If you think Man is having a detrimental contribution, then you by default are making a detrimental contribution. If you think the right thing to do would be to leave the bees alone, why not start by doing just that?

It's easy to point fingers, it's much harder to do something about it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

We need more data. What are the statistics on survival of hives only opened twice per year?

W/out hard data, it's a crap shoot.

I'm laying my money down on survive. W/ a side bet of some will die and some will live. Only having one means you are more than likely to be out of business, if one dies.

Warre or not, I don't know if that makes any difference. I'm not familiar w/ that style of hive.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Birdman said:


> Most of the thing that are wrong with bees are caused by MAN.


Other than having more than one colony per square yard, what are you refering to?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

KeyBeeper said:


> If they do make it, then they will technically be 1st generation survivor bee's - and stronger than many bee's that need a lot of intervention.


I guess you can make that leap, but I don't know if one year of winter survival would lead one to believe that they are stronger than many bees.

Mike Palmer, would you suggest rearing queens from a colony that survived one winter?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Specialkayme said:


> So why not stop keeping the bees right now? Remove the MAN from the equation.


As suggested by Steve Taber some 20 years ago. Not seriously, from what I have heard.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Birdman said:


> I wish all my hives were feral bees.


All of your bees are feral bees. You are just managing them. Which makes them managed bees, as opposed to unmanaged bees. Which is what is in the tree or side of a house. No difference.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Birdman said:


> We would have to remove man from earth. We are tring.


Yet you remove bees that have followed their natural instincts to take up residence in a space of their own choosing and cut them out and put them in one of your choosing? And then wish they were feral bees?

Seems like you are finding practicing a whole lot harder than preaching. Why not just stop doing cutouts, leave them be and simply harvest some of their honey in the fall?

Wayne


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

The bees I cut out are calls from pest control companys. So I get them or they get sprayed. Plus $50.00 an hour.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

I don't think I ever said I was against beekeeping or beekeepers. We all want that super queen you know that bullit proof one. If we hold the tissue every time they sneeze when do they learn to blow their nose.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

Bees biggest problem is man
pestisides, helping transport mites and shb and harvesting to much honey. Every one here besides Barry seem to think that the honey bee can not survive if we don't open the hive every week. Regardless of what every one may think the Honey bee will survive with out Man.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Barry said:


> And personally, when I look for an out yard, I don't want my bees next to some guy who is treating. It goes both ways.


Yeah sure Barry. But I don't treat for AFB, and and everything I have is invested in my bees, and I don't need a hobby beekeeper next door that only looks at his hive twice a year. Do Warre hives have movable frames? No, right? So someone who looks at his Warre twice a year is looking at what???


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Birdman said:


> Every one here besides Barry seem to think that the honey bee can not survive if we don't open the hive every week.


A gross exageration. I know no one who opens their hives once a week.

Sure bees would survive were we not around, but who would know it? If a bee survives in the woods and no one knows it does it make any extra honey?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Do Warre hives have movable frames? No, right?


They don't? Then in all states of the United States they are illegal. I thought discussing illegal methods of beekeeping was discouraged on beesource.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Michael Palmer said:


> that only looks at his hive twice a year.


You're inferring that bees that are minimally managed are more unhealthy then managed hives. I think you would have a hard time proving that one.



> Do Warre hives have movable frames? No, right?


I know nothin' about the Warre hive and its management. Very little at least.


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## slickbrightspear (Jan 9, 2009)

true warres have top bars and can be manipulated if need be.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

I check my hives at least once a month. True most of my bees are from cut outs. I cut them out or they die. One home owner said he knew the bees had been there 3 years, I have had them for 3 years without any treatment of any kind. Six years does this make them surviver stock. I also have a number of others that are five years without treatment. would they be surviver stock. 
I plan on making that Bullet Proof queen. opcorn:


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Barry I dont think Michael is "inferring that bees that are minimally managed are more unhealthy than managed hives"

The way I read it is that Michael is more concerned that if the minimally managed hive gets disease like AFB it could be 6 months before it's noticed.

In that time It's probably become weak enough to be robbed out by the strong managed hives down the road. and Hey Presto you have a big AFB outbreak in your yard!

The guy that looks into his hives more often catches the AFB before it's got real bad and deals with the problem.

frazz


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

KeyBeeper said:


> not opening the hive more than twice a year (warre). What are the chances my first hive of bee's survive the winter?


It's a crap shoot. If you started out with healthy bees the odds are better than 50% they will survive the first winter. But the odds are lower than 50% they will make the second winter.

If you have bees that have been commercially bred for mite resistance, and especially mite related diseases resistance, then your odds go up. If your hive swarms and you don't know if the new queen mated, or if they've stowed enough honey for the winter, your odds go down. If they contract AFB and you don't know it your odds drop to around zero.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Birdman said:


> Most of the thing that are wrong with bees are caused by MAN.





Birdman said:


> I plan on making that Bullet Proof queen.


You don't see a problem with the above two statements?

You claim that most of the things that are wrong with bees are because man has manipulated them to the point where they aren't in the same state as they would be naturally. And yet your goal is to selectively breed the bees to the situation that suits _your_ needs, and improves _your_ survival rates.

You could claim that you are looking for a bee that exists better in nature, but by taking a bee that is found in nature, putting them into a box of your own choosing, changing their environment and adaptability, then telling everyone else that they are doing something wrong aren't you just manipulating the future of the bee? Just like everyone else before you that selected for 'increased honey production' over 'hygienic behavior' (back when mites weren't around, and people didn't know the benefit of hygienic behavior), except now you are just doing it the other way around. By being involved in the process, you change the end result.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

Birdman said:


> Bees biggest problem is man
> pestisides, helping transport mites and shb and harvesting to much honey. Every one here besides Barry seem to think that the honey bee can not survive if we don't open the hive every week. Regardless of what every one may think the Honey bee will survive with out Man.


[did you miss this]


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

Specialkayme said:


> I'm not talking about all of mankind. I'm talking about you. We are all individuals, making individual contributions to the bees. If you think Man is having a detrimental contribution, then you by default are making a detrimental contribution. If you think the right thing to do would be to leave the bees alone, why not start by doing just that?
> 
> It's easy to point fingers, it's much harder to do something about it.


what may I ask do you contribute to the honey bee. More chemicals more treatment. I save the ones I have Like I said earlier they are calls from pest control companies. I don't remember ever saying I was against beek or beeker.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Birdman said:


> what may I ask do you contribute to the honey bee. More chemicals more treatment.


You seem to make a whole lot of assumtions about people that you have absolutely no knowledge of. You say everyone but Barry checks their hives every week, SK contributes nothing but chemicals.

Perhaps including logic and facts in your posts rather than wild assumptions and gross exagerations might lend an air of credibility rather than silliness to your argument, if there actually is one.

Just a suggestion.

Wayne


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

frazzledfozzle said:


> The way I read it is that Michael is more concerned that if the minimally managed hive gets disease like AFB it could be 6 months before it's noticed.


What about all those "feral" hives, hives in walls, eves, trees, etc. that receive no management? Are these the wellsprings of AFB? I think not. While I don't have hard data in print to go by, I think it's safe to say that overwhelmingly the vast majority of AFB cases come from commercial outfits, not feral or hobby hives.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

KeyBeeper said:


> not opening the hive more than twice a year (warre). What are the chances my first hive of bee's survive the winter?


Its a good thing you didn't say once a year. Someone might hunt you down:lpf:


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Birdman said:


> [did you miss this]


No I didn't. Perhaps I misconstrued it, but I didn't miss it. Most of your posts seem to articulate three main points (correct me if I'm wrong, because if I am I'm not understanding):

1. Most of the problems the bees are bearing through are because of Man. From this, one could assume (although you didn't say directly) that bees would be better off if they didn't have to bear through those problems, i.e. if man was not involved in the keeping of bees.

2. Bees have been around much before man, and will continue to thrive long after man. I would argue that as a species, yes they will, but in regards to specific locations, perhaps and perhaps not. Man has taken the bees to many locations that they were not found naturally, and cannot continue to survive naturally.

3. Despite the fact that you feel man is responsible for most (if not all) of the bees problems, you continue to remove them from walls and buildings, and you continue to manipulate the environments that you find them in. By claiming that they would have been "raided" if you didn't remove them isn't a compelling argument (At least to me) if you feel strongly with #'s 1 or 2. In North Carolina (and I'm not familiar with your state, so I apologize if it isn't the same) killing a hive of honey bees is illegal. They can't just "raid" them. Even if you assume that they do "raid" some of them, they won't do it to all of them. Even leaving 1 or 2% of those colonies in place would be better than manipulating their state by removing them (at least according to what you are arguing). Additionally, if you don't remove the bees, someone else will. This gets someone else's hands dirty, not yours. "You must be the change you wish to see in the world."



Birdman said:


> what may I ask do you contribute to the honey bee. More chemicals more treatment.





waynesgarden said:


> You seem to make a whole lot of assumtions about people that you have absolutely no knowledge of.


Wayne has it exactly correct. You assume because I challenge your arguments that I then must be pouring chemicals into the hive. I have not contributed chemicals of any kind (other than sugar and pollen substitute, and by sugar I mean 1:1 feeding and not sugar dusting) for over 6 years. I did add chemicals my first year because the hive was failing. But I since realized the error of my ways and havn't used any chemicals since. I'm happy with letting the weaker hives fail, rather than pumping chemicals into the hive. But that's an argument for another thread.



Birdman said:


> I don't remember ever saying I was against beek or beeker.


You don't _say_ it, but you _imply_ it. Again, if I'm drawing conclusions that are incorrect, feel free to tell me so. But if you are claiming that most of the problems that bees have gone through are because of Man, and they would be better off without us, then why not do just that? You make a statement, then draw a conclusion, but your actions speak directly against your statement or your conclusion. It seems at odds to me.

Personally, I feel that man has exposed the bees to many problems. I don't think they are caused by man though. VD wasn't created by man, it was just introduced by man. AHB wasn't created by man (arguably, I won't go into that though) just introduced by man. But then again, the honey bee wasn't created by man, just introduced to this continent by man, so it goes both ways. We gave them a home, then gave them pests. However, with the problems that we have contributed, we've also contributed much more good (again, in my opinion). Nature would not have created treatments for diseases. They would just let hives die out. Survival of the fittest would be the treatment to a disease. Nature would not have selected a breed for honey production, propolis production, pollen foraging, royal jelly production, or a laundry list of other products that come from the hive. By mankind selecting for these traits, it increases their value to mankind. This in turn creates a greater need for colonies, and increases their number. They thrive in an area where they normally wouldn't even be at, so they win in part. It's a win win. It becomes a potential loss if our taking is greater than our giving, but that's a matter of management techniques and not one of philosophy. 

I'm not trying to get under your skin Birdman, just looking for a thoughtful argument.  No offense is intended (which if there is some, let me know and I'll back off).


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

None taken. Wasn't tring to imply any thing about the way people keep there bees.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> Personally, for the health of my bees, I wouldn't want a beekeeper next door that only opened their colony once or twice a year.


...i've inspected hives that are only opened twice a year....once when apistan strips are added, and once when the bee inspector comes by and discovers yet another set of apistan strips have been added, and none have been removed (3-4 years worth....with mites visibly crawling on the strips).

on the other hand, how nervous does a feral hive make you? what measures would you take to locate and remove nearby unamanaged colonies (in structures or in trees)?

deknow


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Barry said:


> I think it's safe to say that overwhelmingly the vast majority of AFB cases come from commercial outfits, not feral or hobby hives.


Barry, I'd love to see some numbers to back this up. AFB and commercial don't coexist very long. Provincial apiary inspections in MB don't point to AFB being a problem in commercial operations up here.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Here the AFB problems are overwhelmingly hobbyists, combined with feral deadouts in the bush that get a new swarm in every so often that's starts the whole cycle over again when it dies and leaves new AFB infested honey to be robbed.

There have over the years been some "commercial" beekeepers with out of control AFB, each case I can think of has been a hobbyist who has grown to large numbers, without enough experience or having worked in a beekeeping business. It's all got too hard and turned to custard and none of the ones I can think of are still around, their hives were bought and cleaned up by neighboring commercial beekeepers.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

In the four commercial operations that I personally know of, any sign or suspect AFB comb or hive is burned right away to prevent the spread. As an instructor, I can say that I have seen AFB in some of my students hives and getting them to burn their only hive or one of two to prevent the spread is very tough and some just won't do it, so when those hives swarm the AFB goes with them. I am not sure were this data that the majority of AFB cases are commercial. I suspect that most the reported AFB cases are from commercial guys that report statistics but only because most hobby and no feral hives that I know of file these type of reports.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

alpha6 said:


> I am not sure were this data that the majority of AFB cases are commercial.


Read what I said.

"While I don't have hard data in print to go by"

I have no problem being shown that I'm wrong. If someone has data that shows otherwise, I'd like to see it.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

alpha6 said:


> In the four commercial operations that I personally know of, any sign or suspect AFB comb or hive is burned right away to prevent the spread.


That means that your four commercial operations all had AFB. I think this was my point.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

But that says they *HAD* AFB, I think that's his point.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Which means they WERE all capable of spreading the disease.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Warre hives can indeed have frames, just as the Abbe describes and provides instructions for in his book. Free to download and read for anyone who cares to learn before bashing.

The most recent reports I have seen on feral colony diminishing is around 2005-2006 when the spread of CCD was claimed to have decimated up to 90% of feral nests. 

Given that information, it would seem feral colonies were not widely spreading AFB to be noticed as having the effect CCD is claimed to have.

I agree that beekeepers are responsible for the bees in their care,especially if said beekeepers intentionally locate bees in places where foraging sources are limited and resources such as water, plant resins, etc.. are not plentiful.

Yet another reason I do not describe myself as a beekeeper. I let the bees decide their fate for the most part. I don't use methods to increase and produce surplus honey for production. I don't truck bees for pollination over great distances. Ionly place bees in hives that seem to facilitate their natural biology and behaviors. rather than dictate the nest environment for them. 

nope, I am not a beekeeper. Nothing against those who are. But just because my goals and methods are not the same as a beekeeper. doesn't make them any better or worse than those of a beekeeper, only different.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

well said big bear:applause:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> I think it's safe to say that overwhelmingly the vast majority of AFB cases come from commercial outfits, not feral or hobby hives.


Sorry wabbit, statistics aren't for kids.

Year after year, during 20 years of Apiary Inspection, ther majority of the AFB was found in yards of 20 or less in the hands of hobby and sideline beekeepers. Statistically, the larger beekeeping operations had a quite smaller percentage of AFB.

Unmanaged colonies of bees in trees and walls of houses tend to have low percentages of AFB because when a hive dies in the wild, so to speak, wax moths eat it up before it is reoccupied.

I knew a guy in Ohio, Jim Thompson by name, if I recall correctly. He had an article in Bee Culture on Hive Tools just recently. He told me he liked being the County Apiary Inspector so he knew where the AFB was and where to put his bees accordingly. I'm sure he wanted to be able to see that the stuff was gotten rid of too.

I know what Mike is getting at, I think. The guy who only gets into his hives twice a year may not know enuf about what he should know about to keep his hives healthy and noninfectious to others. My experience bears that out. There are also exceptions to the rule.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> I have no problem being shown that I'm wrong. If someone has data that shows otherwise, I'd like to see it.


I don't know if I can gget it, but NYS Ag&Mkts has it. Call Paul Cappy at 518-457-2087. Maybe he'd tell you or show you the numbers.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> Sorry wabbit, statistics aren't for kids.





> Year after year, during 20 years of Apiary Inspection, ther majority of the AFB was found in yards of 20 or less in the hands of hobby and sideline beekeepers. Statistically, the larger beekeeping operations had a quite smaller percentage of AFB.


where do these statistics come from kid? to play the "science based" crowds game, do you have something to back that up?

perhaps healthy feral colonies resist AFB much like healthy colonies are able to resist many other issues that plague weak colonies. That might also explain them not getting or passing AFB as well.



> the guy who only gets into his hives twice a year may not know enuf about what he should know about to keep his hives healthy and noninfectious to others. My experience bears that out. There are also exceptions to the rule.


because you as one beekeeper claims to have experienced something, that makes it a rule? wow. I know at least 10 beekeepers with what many would consider to be educated,experience who are running warre and top bar hive with minimum intervention (meaning about two or so inspections a year) They might disagree with that being declared a "rule".

by the way Mark, I am not really trying to pick on you. I just don't understand the need to try to convince others against a methodology of beekeeping of hive type if is no good reason to. Nothing the anti-"natural" or anti tbh crowd can really be cited as more than opinion and speculation.

There is no "proof" that minimal management methods promote disease. one can talk about historical laws and regulations against un-managed hives to prevent spread of diseases, but that was not exactly the same as what most minimal intervention beeks are doing. I bet if you ask most minimalists to describe their beeyard activity, they would describe paying more attention than the words "two inspections a year" accurately reflects. Most simply watch external activity for clues and exhibited behavior before opening the hive for a "full, in depth" inspection. That does not prevent the occasional "peek" or brief visit to make an general assessment as to whether more attention is required.

there is a lot of assuming and incomplete communication here on both parts of the minimal intervention discussion.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm sorry. I don't remember exactly where I read what I said about bee trees and house bees and AFB. But, as I said about Commercial, Sideline, and Hobby beekeepers and their percent AFB infestation, it's in the annual reports from NYS Dept of Ag & Mkts Apiary Inspection Program, 1986 to 2006. I no longer have the reports. They have them in Albany at the Main Office.

The percent AFB colonies in Apiaries of 1 to 10 are of a higher percentage than what is found in yards of 11 to 20 and 21 on up. Beekeeping outfits on the small side have more AFB per number of colonies than outfits w/ larger colony countts.

This is not opinion. It is statistically born out by Apiary Inspectors year after year.

Maybe Apiary Inspectors of America has the data. One could ask them for it.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

why should I do your homework? heh heh. sorry, I am having fun playing devil's advocate here.

I have no doubt some groups surveys show something as you describe.

that still doesn't mean a thing about minimal management practitioners passing AFB to anyone.

one would say that it is, if anything, evidence that langs and "modern" management methods are just as prone to passing such diseases seeing as how the vast majority of hives in those hobbyist bee yards are likely those types.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bigbearomaha said:


> I have no doubt some groups surveys show something as you describe.
> 
> that still doesn't mean a thing about minimal management practitioners passing AFB to anyone.


Well, I guess you are right about that. Unless you are still just trying to provoke for the fun of it.

bbo, don't you think it is a safe assumption that the guy who has 500 to 1,000 colonies or more is more likely to go into his colonies more often than the guy who has one or two or ten?

After all, it's his livelyhood. I'm into my hives 6 or 8 times a year. 

Didn't the OP state that he only went into his hive(warre) twice? Why he noted that it is a warre hive I don't know and it doesn't make much difference to the discussion. Eronious information, imo.

So, what was it we were arguing, I mean discussing, about? I forget.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> The percent AFB colonies in Apiaries of 1 to 10 are of a higher percentage than what is found in yards of 11 to 20 and 21 on up. Beekeeping outfits on the small side have more AFB per number of colonies than outfits w/ larger colony countts.


Just to play the numbers game, it might look like this.

10 hives, high percentage, 50 percent = 5 hives
1500 hives, low percentage, 10 percent = 150 hives

Hmmmmm!


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

heh heh. Idid say devil's advocate.

actually, I said nothing about commercial beeks practices. I have seen them be religious about inspections, I have seen them bee horrific about it. just like hobbyists and stationary honey producers.

I believe the OP asked "what if" only once or twice. I could be mistaken.

and, the difference in hive management practices between langs and warres is different enough to matter, imo.

This is why I said, the information is too vague and assumptions have been too many in this thread. According to Warre, a beekeeper could get away with only two inspections a year. He advocated avoiding needless interruptions to the hive though he didn't say that it was a hard rule only two inspections were to be implemented. He went into detail about more in depth inspections and management with his system.

I personally believe people need to read the Warre book cover to cover before implementing the hive and methods. they miss out on so much by just going on quotes and snippets found online and in forums.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

You don't have to do his homework, it's done. He's told you where the reports are.

I'm also a part time bee inspector for our government and the AFB I find is overwhelmingly in hobbyist hives. So much so, that I don't check a lot of commercial hives any more, they are taking care of their own business there is rarely anything for me to find. I still have the odd look to be sure but time's best spent where the problems are.

Hobbyists have an advantage, and a disadvantage. The advantage is that they only have a few hives so are not getting cross contamination by exchanging gear, the only way for their bees to get AFB is by robbing an infected hive. This is why Commercial beekeepers have to be right on it, because if they don't notice a case of AFB they can spread it around many hives. To much of that and they won't be a commercial beekeeper much longer.

It is not wrong to get AFB. If you are operating many hives over a wide area, sooner or later it's likely to happen. What's wrong is not dealing with it.

Here's the hobbyist disadvantage. They pull out a comb infected with AFB but don't even see it. More times than I like to think about I've shown hobby beekeepers the AFB in their hives. Probably more than 1/2 the time they will question my judgement and ask for a lab test to be done. Even then when the results come in they will still doubt and try to do just about anything rather than burn the hive. As we run through the legal options, more hives are possibly being exposed. I've even found dead hives in stacks outside, open to robbers, rotten with AFB.




;616285 said:


> I think it's safe to say that overwhelmingly the vast majority of AFB cases come from commercial outfits, not feral or hobby hives.


Also, sorry, but I don't like the above statement at all. It is exactly this kind of ill informed statement, made to sound like a fact, that is "learned" by newbies to beekeeping, and so derogatory to another sector of beekeepers, the ones who are making a living from it.

I'll admit I've been pretty hard on this forum sometimes on some "alternative" beekeepers, but it's been because I've had my hackles raised by having this sort of stuff thrown at me, in some cases by people who don't even have a hive yet but read something in a book.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/ar/archive/jul07/bee0707.htm


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Oldtimer said:


> It is exactly this kind of ill informed statement, made to sound like a fact, that is "learned" by newbies to beekeeping, and so derogatory to another sector of beekeepers, the ones who are making a living from it.


Derogatory? I guess you could take it that way, but certainly wasn't meant to be. I'm still waiting for your "informed" proof that would say otherwise. Otherwise, it's your "belief", just like it's my belief that the numbers would come from commercial, as they have the lion share of hives.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> Here's the hobbyist disadvantage. They pull out a comb infected with AFB but don't even see it. More times than I like to think about I've shown hobby beekeepers the AFB in their hives.


so, you are assuming that all "hobbyists" are in-experienced and don't know what to look for? tsk tsk. 

it's typically considered proper etiquette to provide a link or direct quote of the source of a reference Oldtimer. you should know that, you have demanded it from others often enough. besides, had you read on, it was a joke comment between mark and I, but thanks for playing.

so, you admit to being so biased in favor of commercial beeks that you admit to not inspecting them as often as "hobbyists". see how easily comments are twisted? 

jsut because someone is a hobbyist does not mean they are inexperienced or don't know what they are doing. if you look at the statisitcs that exist out there, most beeks are about 60 years old and have been beekeeping for a number of years, at least in the U.S. idon't know about your area.

that would indicate to me that hobbyist beeks are NOT even mostly inexperienced.

If I were a hobbyist beekeeper, I would likely be insulted by your assumption.

lucky for me, I'm not a beekeeper.so it doesn't matter to me personally.

here's your statistical based "facts". The majority of beekeepers in the U.S. use Langstroth hives. They also are "modern' management method users and use miticides, etc.. and other treatments in the hive if you beleive such statistics.

that alone would suggest that the problems are not the alternative hives and methods, the problems existing now have risen and progressed within mostly lang hives under "modern" management.

I would look at my own house before casting stones elsewhere.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Barry said:


> Derogatory? I guess you could take it that way, but certainly wasn't meant to be. I'm still waiting for your "informed" proof that would say otherwise. Otherwise, it's your "belief", just like it's my belief that the numbers would come from commercial, as they have the lion share of hives.


I'm not talking about just that statement alone, but about many similar ill informed, or outright wrong, statements that are made about commercial beekeepers, to the point that some newbies get the idea that commercial beekeepers are the scourge of the planet.

Remember that many commercial beekeepers were once hobbyists. That includes me, I started with one hive as a 13 year old boy. I spent many hours, much of my spare time, sitting outside it just watching them & it wasn't till 3 years later I got a job and became a full time beekeeper.

As to waiting for my "informed proof", I'll probably not be bothered because there is a mindset at work that is not going to be swayed by the facts. 
I've stated what I've found during my inspections, but if someone chooses to have a different opinion, end of the day, no skin off my nose.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

so you have your personal experiences? so what? we are supposed to take those as universal truths? not hardly.


those mindsets at work you mention, are those like the ones who are set to putting down, challenging and otherwise antagonizing newbees and others who ask questions about alternative methods? seems like those 'set minds" work the other way as well.

you poor victim.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

bigbearomaha said:


> so, you are assuming that all "hobbyists" are in-experienced and don't know what to look for? tsk tsk.


No not assuming that at all. Just saying what happens to me read it again.





bigbearomaha said:


> so, you admit to being so biased in favor of commercial beeks that you admit to not inspecting them as often as "hobbyists".


yes I do admit that and thought you would probably get your knickers in a twist over it. Proved right. But as I said, I go where the problems are I don't have time to inspect all hives.




bigbearomaha said:


> jsut because someone is a hobbyist does not mean they are inexperienced or don't know what they are doing. if you look at the statisitcs that exist out there, most beeks are about 60 years old and have been beekeeping for a number of years, at least in the U.S. idon't know about your area.
> 
> that would indicate to me that hobbyist beeks are NOT even mostly inexperienced.


Read what I said again. Fact is, compared to a full time beekeeper most hobbyists ARE inexperienced, 60 years old or not. Experience is not just owning some hives for 40 years. When someones bees are getting good results, then I'll respect them. And that goes for some hobbyists I know.




bigbearomaha said:


> If I were a hobbyist beekeeper, I would likely be insulted by your assumption.


Again, no assumption made. I stated what has happened to me in my job.
I'm a hobbyist beekeeper now myself. I'm not at all insulted by my statement. 




bigbearomaha said:


> here's your statistical based "facts". The majority of beekeepers in the U.S. use Langstroth hives. They also are "modern' management method users and use miticides, etc.. and other treatments in the hive if you beleive such statistics.
> 
> that alone would suggest that the problems are not the alternative hives and methods, the problems existing now have risen and progressed within mostly lang hives under "modern" management.


Finally a statement from you that contains an element of truth.




bigbearomaha said:


> I would look at my own house before casting stones elsewhere.


yes I think you should.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

bigbearomaha said:


> so you have your personal experiences? so what? we are supposed to take those as universal truths? not hardly.
> 
> 
> those mindsets at work you mention, are those like the ones who are set to putting down, challenging and otherwise antagonizing newbees and others who ask questions about alternative methods? seems like those 'set minds" work the other way as well.
> ...


Now that is offensive. I think I've been pretty helpful to a lot of newbies.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

you are great at assuming things.



> Experience is not just owning some hives for 40 years. When someones bees are getting good results, then I'll respect them. And that goes for some hobbyists I know.


my opinion is you are so full of it, it's funny.

luckily, there are far more sensible people in the world. we thank you for expressing your opinion. I have laughed long and loud. it was great.

it's the "my way or the highway' attitudes such as you display that make the world a fun place to watch.


> . I think I've been pretty helpful to a lot of newbies


a stopped watch is right twice a day as well

:applause:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Time for an intermission . . . . :gh: :banana: Getting a little hot in here.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

LOL. not hot on this end bubba. just having some fun.

as far as I am concerned, bee and let bee. couldn't care less what the next guy does. it's when the other guy tries to tell everyone else what to do that I get interested.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

bigbearomaha said:


> my opinion is you are so full of it, it's funny.


Yeah well, when anything to say that would be worthwhile fails, throw insults.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

edit. this is ridiculous. I call end to my part in it. you want to keep on it, knock yourself out or pm me with your tears. I leave this to more on topic discussion.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK well I'll edit mine too then. Glad you want to end it. I never wanted to start it but when you launched your personal attack on me specially, in post 66, I decided you would be answered. If you don't want these ridiculous arguments, confine your attacks on people to the truth at least.


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

While spending most of my free time on Beesource, and other beekeeping forums worldwide in the last 18 months reading and learning I got impression that commercial beekeepers are iresponsible evil people who don't care about bees, only for quick profit
Yes, that's the impression that radiates from and between lines written by some amateurs and salon style beekeepers.
Being a new beekeeper with intent to become 100+ hives sideliner, I invested my time and my money trying to learn as much as possible, and my best teachers were present and past commercial beekeepers. Talking to some of them,and reading some, while "stealing" their knowledge, one thing always come up on the top,and that's their obsession with bees and their love for this craft. *Oldtimer* is one of my favourite teachers, always full of practical advices, solutions for everyday problems in apiary, down to earth, with simple solutions for complex problems.
Thanks Oldtimer.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

A scientist named Schroedinger gave an anecdote about a cat in a sealed box with random timer and a vial of poison. The average person thinks, "The cat is either alive or the cat is dead." The scientist thinks that the cat may exist in some indeterminate form, neither alive nor dead until some one takes a look inside the box.

The average beekeeper looks in the boxes more than twice a year, but develops a sense for when something is amok before he opens the box. If you only have less than 6 hives, build observer hives with windows in them and a clear lid so you don't have to open the box so often. Set them off the ground to reduce beetle, ant, and mice problems. Hive top feeders and external Boardman feeders help reduce the disturbances to the bees as well. If you moved it up to once month, you'll probably save the colony from being drastically weakened by some disease, pest, or other malady. You'll also be able to postpone swarming until you have a decent honey crop. 

I try to check mine on the 1st, 10th, and 20th of each month.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

good grief bigbearomaha pull your head in


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

I think it's fairly obvious that commercial beekeepers have to be very alert to any level of AFB in their hives.
Barry, It would be almost unheard of to have 150 of 1500 hives infected with AFB, but if he did what matters is how soon he catches it and what he does about it.
If his 150 infected hives are caught early while the hives are strong and he deals with it properly then it's not going to be a problem to his other 1350.

If the guy down the road no matter if he is a hobbyist or a commercial only inspects his hive twice a year there is a far greater chance of his hive/hives collapsing from AFB infection and then being robbed out by hives closeby.

It's not whether the beekeeper is hobby or commercial it's how often they inspect the hive and what they do when they find a problem.

frazz


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

You can continue down that path if you like. however,there is nothing I have said regarding the topic that is not true or reflects my opinion as I plainly stated it. 

fact..most people use Lang equipment

fact.. most people use some variation of what has been described on forums like this as "modern" beekeeping

fact...diseases have continued to spread and bee populations have continued to be documented as declining while the two facts listed above are prevalent in the "modern" world".

fact..minimal intervention practices have not been proven to increase diseases or bee decline any more or less than so called "modern" practices.

the OP wanted to know if the bees in warre hives would survive with only a couple inspections a year. given that he did not elaborate on what other observation and attention he might be or might not be using alongside those "inspections", it is difficult t osay anything more than

feral bees with no inspections continue to survive in North America. that is a fact, testimonies by the fact that beekeepers and pest management professionals are asked to remove thousands of bee nest from human habitation areas every year.

given that, one can say that a minimally managed hive has at least the chances of survival of a feral nest, perhaps more given there are at least two inspections over the course of the year.

there are your "facts" for you. the OP didn't ask for personal opinions on his choice of hive nor did he ask for un-informed criticism of the hive and management method he chose.

up till this point, the only non fact I posted was that I find some posters amusing. I don't find the un-warranted antagonism of hive types and methods of others by biased people very forum friendly". .

for my last comment on this then I will permanently leave this thread, Oldtimer, for someone who uses comments like " I suppose you would get your knickers in a twist" it's odd that you would worry about other people "insulting" you.

you seem to be the type who likes to dish it out, but can't take it.

The reason I mention that in public here is that this is supposed to be a place for people to share and learn yet there is a handful of posters in this forum who find it necessary to antagonize, as oldtimer freely admitted to doing earlier in this thread, posters who share information or ask questions about hives and methods that don't "fit in" with what the self described "real" beekeepers think.

So you "win", I will not post again in this forum until I see that antagonism and insults hidden behind thin claims of debate and "opinion" are done.

there are far too many hypocrites and "my way or the highway" types here who keep pressing personal agendas.

and that's a "fact"

(you'll notice I didn't say anything about not going to the online chat  )


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> Hmmmmm!


Play all you want, it doesn't work that way in reality. When Apiary Inspections are done across the state what is found is what I stated before. Refer to previous posts.

If the annual rate of AFB found in inspected colonies is 10%, that 10% is not distributed evenly amongst all classes of beekeeping operations. It is weighted in the smaller outfits. (if that's the right way to say it.)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bigbearomaha said:


> I personally believe people need to read the Warre book cover to cover before implementing the hive and methods. they miss out on so much by just going on quotes and snippets found online and in forums.


Heh, heh, yes you did. I'm having fun too.

People who commonly quote The Bible probably haven't read it cover to cover and you expect someone to read the Warre book in total before using Warre equipment? Good luck.

People don't even read signs, let alone books.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> People don't even read signs, let alone books.


sad, but true. nevertheless, that's what ideals are for, right?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> I'm still waiting for your "informed" proof that would say otherwise. Otherwise, it's your "belief", just like it's my belief that the numbers would come from commercial, as they have the lion share of hives.


Barry, Barry, Barry. I must respectfully disagree w/ you. Yes, I have not shown you the data or even the official report, but I have told you what I KNOW to be true, not what I believe.

You believe something to be true, because it is logical to you I guess, and Oldtimer and I have stated something that is true and factual.

I'll try to get Paul Cappy to give me hard numbers, if you wish.

I was born in America. That is a fact. Do you believe me or do you need to see my Certificate of Live Birth?

Are there not credible sources other than Scientific Studies and actual State Run Survey Results?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> People don't even read signs, let alone books.


Awesome.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Barry you are still waiting for our informed proof. Why?

It was you that made the ORIGIONAL statement that most of the AFB comes from commercial hives. I am waiting for YOUR informed proof.

And sorry but it gets worse for you. What you stated was an OPINION because you have not been out there and seeing what is in the hives. You just assumed you knew. And as per yourself and BigBear, an opinion demands evidence. Ettiquette or something!

What sqkcrk and I have reported is MORE than an assumed opinion, it is what we have actually seen in the feild. And what's more the reports do exist and you have been directed to them, but nonetheless keep casting doubt regardless. That is what I meant by mindset.

The mindset to some people goes like this:-
RULE 1. Commercial beekeepers are responsable for every evil.
RULE 2. If the paperwork shows that commercial beekeepers are NOT responsable for some of the evils, ignore the paperwork, refer RULE 1.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

KeyBeeper said:


> not opening the hive more than twice a year (warre). What are the chances my first hive of bee's survive the winter?


Actually BBO, this is what he wrote. He wanted to know if opening his hive twice a year would result in winterloss or not. Had he left "warre" out of it, the question would have been the same.

Did anyone answer his question?

My answer is: Not enuf data for me to be able to predict w/ any accuracy. I would want to know what was observed when the hive was opened? 

Open is a curious choice of word to use. It implies that the person doing the opening did nothing more than that. I don't know enuf about this beekeeper to assume he meant any more.

Was anything else done? Such as hefting the hive to see if it was heavy w/ honey? Did the beekeeper feed in the fall?

To many unknowns. A 50/50 chance imo.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

I think the personal references and sniping needs to stop. Thanks.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

bigbearomaha said:


> fact..minimal intervention practices have not been proven to increase diseases or bee decline any more or less than so called "modern" practices.


Not a fact.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> Actually BBO, this is what he wrote. He wanted to know if opening his hive twice a year would result in winterloss or not. Had he left "warre" out of it, the question would have been the same.


what makes you assume that the warre management methods and equipment necessitate the same experience and results as other hives? isn't that the point of experimenting with other hives and methods, to obtain different results? so yes, I think it's possible the discussion is different with mention of Warre.
Did anyone answer his question?



> My answer is: Not enuf data for me to be able to predict w/ any accuracy. I would want to know what was observed when the hive was opened?


I pretty much agreed with that. it could be only slightly better, if that than a feral nest un-managed



> Open is a curious choice of word to use. It implies that the person doing the opening did nothing more than that. I don't know enuf about this beekeeper to assume he meant any more.


that was my point earlier. many of the comments aren't specific enough to assume one way or the other, but some here have no problem making assumptions to fit their thinking and going with it.



> Was anything else done? Such as hefting the hive to see if it was heavy w/ honey? Did the beekeeper feed in the fall?
> 
> To many unknowns. A 50/50 chance imo.


if left at that, I could agree, no problem. but, assumptions and opinions were thrown out based on that he didn't mention more. like assuming he didn't lift hive, assuming he didn't observe or keep watch in any other means besides open hive inspections.

that didn't stop people from making speculations and spouting comments on what they assumed beyond what was written.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> Not a fact.


based on MY experience and reading the news, there have been no conclusive studies proving that. deny it all you like.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yeah but then how much experience do you have?

I'm out there seeing it for myself all the time.

Most unmanaged hives in my country will get taken by mites or something else in little more than a year and at best three years. Managed hives ( I'm talking about properly managed), infinite number of years.

Most experienced beekeepers will know this to be true. Deny it all you like.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

bigbearomaha said:


> given that, one can say that a minimally managed hive has at least the chances of survival of a feral nest, perhaps more given there are at least two inspections over the course of the year.


Bear, I'm not sure we can that with certainty. 

If it is true that bees know more about beekeeping then we do, then we can likely assume that they will select and outfit a new hive in a manner that will better guarantee survival than if we select and outfit one for them. (If not the case, then we must know better than the bees.)

Assuming then that bees, posessing more knowledge than humans as to their needs, create their hives to best suit those needs, then how do we gauge the need or importance of inspections in natural colonies vs. artificially created colonies? We are comparing apples and oranges, I believe. 

Given that, I would assume that a hive, naturally established by the bees, has a better chance of survival than one established at the same time by human beekeepers. That is, unless we can assure that we can create conditions equal to the natural order of the wild hive.

I think once we make the decision to interfere with the natural order of things, such as building boxes of any shape or size and put wild things in them to live, we owe it to our charges to help insure their survival. 

Respectfully,

Wayne


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I called to speak to NY State Apiculturalist Paul Cappy @ 518-457-2087 and he is out of the office until Feb. 22. By that time we will be arguing about something else.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bigbearomaha said:


> what makes you assume that the warre management methods and equipment necessitate the same experience and results as other hives? isn't that the point of experimenting with other hives and methods, to obtain different results? so yes, ...


Did I do that? Make that assumption? 

Is there something about Warre hives that make them superiourly suited for overwintering and disease resistance, over other hive types? I am totally unaware of what Warre hives are and what makes them different from TBHs or Langstroth type hives. Not that I'm really all that interested in them. I have enuf on my plate.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

I don't recall saying they were superior. I said they were different. 

Wayne, in most of that, I might agree with you. however, 

assuming just for a moment that a feral colony were to choose to land in a man made structure that is left un-managed. that man made structure could be a house wall, a garage roof, a hive. it happens all the time time. 

I don't have to "assume" that bees tend to themselves better than humans do. over 170 million years of survival attest to that already.

I don't think building a box and letting bees live in it is beekeeping. in fact, there has been much deliberation all over this forum and elsewhere suggesting that bees left to sit in un managed hive boxes are no different than those in a tree or in a house wall, etc...

I will agree that when one places bees in a location they might not already be present in or where there are not enough forage resources, no doubt, people need to be attentive even moreso.

herein, I think is the discussion between "minimalist" or "naturalistic" methods and approaches as compared to "modern" approaches which entail frequent hive opening, inserting synthetic and alternative dietary supplements, etc...

in other words, I would suggest that "beekeeping" is the manipulations and treatments performed on/in a hive as different from just where bees live within.

doing a quick search to "define beekeeping" on Google, a list of web dictionaries returns this page.,..

most of the definitions therin seem to coincide with what I suggested earlier. centered around the actions/activities undertaken by beekeepers with bees.

is placing a package of bees into a hive body one of those actions, I think it would be hard to say it wasn't an action, but left alone, is it enough to call it beekeeping? I'm not sure I could call it that.

I think most of the discussion about minimalistic and naturalistic beekeeping is on how often and what types of actions are taken as compared to "modern" beekeeping.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bigbearomaha said:


> I don't recall saying they were superior. I said they were different.


I didn't mean to imply that you did. But since you seem to be knowledgable about Warre Hives and I am not, I thought I'd ask you your opinion on whether they are or not.

Personally, I can't see how one hive would be superior over another, as far as the bees are concerned. Superiorly suited to the Beekeeper, now that's anotrher argument to have. 

I mean "discussion".


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> I'll try to get Paul Cappy to give me hard numbers, if you wish.


Mark, if you can get this, even if it takes some time, I would love to see it. As I said, if there is hard data out there, it will help form (reform) my opinion.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

In case I forget, he can be reached at 518-457-2087, when he is in, after Feb. 22. If I remember the toll free number correctly it is 1-800-554-5401 or maybe 4501, ext. 2087. That's the number for NY State's Dept. of Agriculture and Markets.

I'm going to try to get to the AIA contact, I. Barton Smith, the last I knew. Maybe the Beltsville Bee Lab has this sort of info.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

opcorn: wow... winter this year is sure weighing heavily on a lot of folks. Except for our friend south of the equator, and he's in, what, the dog-days of August as we'd say? six months difference? 

Two observations about commercial beekeepers and hobbiests or sideliners:
1) Beekeepers who have been commercial for any length of time know how to do it - they've survived. Newcomers to the commercial ranks either have learned or are learning quickly, or they'll go out of business. Fact of life, whether by disease, pests, or mismanagement. And we beekeeping peons (I count myself in this group) have discovered we can learn much from the commercial operators who post here. I for one regularly read the commercial section, for what I can learn. While I have no intention of becoming commercial, I do want to learn.

2) There are two classes of hobbiests/sideliners. The serious and wise ones - those who run their operations responsibly and conscientiously, and because of their wisdom and knowledge, we can learn from them. We know who they are...  The other class is, as George Imirie called them, "bee-havers." If they're lucky, sooner or later they'll pull their heads out, and graduate into the serious section of beekeeping. Or they'll fall by the wayside. I suspect most of the bee-havers in the country aren't on this forum. Then again, maybe they are. 

Now, regarding comments about AFB and other diseases/pests on this forum perhaps ought to be distinguished not between commercial beekeepers and hobbiests/sideliners, but between bee-_keepers_ and bee-_havers_. The size of the package doesn't determine the quality that's inside. Just my opinion. :lookout: Then again, who makes the determination who is which? sigh...life sure is interesting. Maybe it's time to return to the shop and build some more supers, assemble frames, or hit my thumb again. :doh:
Regards,
Steven


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## HBBF (Feb 4, 2011)

WOW! Im new to this forum and new to beekeeping and anything I say is from being about 2 percent educated in the world of beekeeping! Wish I had came here sooner!
Food for thought; AKC registerd dogs now a days are having problems with seizures, obcessive tail chasing, hyperactivity, and so on and on. A 20/20 or Dateline type show I seen a while back was interviewing scholars of the canine world and they admitted that undesirable traits like these are from years and years of breeding for desirable traits but the mistake has come from overlooking the undesirable traits that the "best of breeds" also had which has lead to show quality dogs that also have the undesriable traits that nobody was looking at. 
For the many years I wanted to start beekeeping I always thought of a lady that lived down the road who I thought was "experienced" as I knew she was a beekeeper for many years and I planned on turning to for guidance when I finally started keeping bees. After I finally got my bees last year and when it came time to be thinking about an extractor, I turned to her to see if she had one to rent, let me borrow, or help me to extract. We sat and talked bees awhile and when I left I was very let down. Her extracting methods consisted of cutting out all the comb and squeezing the honey out with her hands above a big bowl! Maybe thats how it used to be done I dont know but I didnt want to borrow her extractor!! She no longer keeps bees cause she sid she kept losing her bees to some kind of mite or something, she didnt know. Said she tried spraying lysol in and around the hive and various other home brews that I was very shocked by. Anyways, I learned real fast that the person I thought was gonna be knowledgable and experienced from her many years of beekeeping was very behind the times and that my one season of beekeeping and reading had catapulted me very far ahead of what I thought was going to be a mentor. But all in all, its all my opinion based on my very green and and low level experience with beekeeping....
I enjoy opening up my hives to see what they have done and how theyre doing. Maybe that will fade away some over the years I dont know but I dont know why else Id want to keep bees if I wasnt involved with them. But thats me and I dont insinuate that anybody else has to be like me. But I feel a sense of responsibility for them since I dumped them into my hive and expect something out of them. For the first month or so until my colonies population started building up, I had to dump a cluster of ants off my inner covers until the bees had enough defenders to keep them out themselves. I dont know if they would have made it or not without my ridding them of the ants. Maybe somebody else knows. But so far my bees are alive a buzzing well when I put my ear to the side and lightly thump them!!! I cant wait until its warm so I can open them up again to see how theyre doing and to be able to sit and watch them coming and going from the hive again. But again, thats me.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Mark, Warre hives, I think, are just different. 

to me, beekeeping is very subjective to ones geography, personal philosophy and objectives/desired outcome of working with bees.

because of that, a Warre hive/method may be great for one person but not workable for the guy in the next county.

A horizontal tbh run "organically" might be fantastic for that lady but not productive for the honey producing fella in the next state.

Langs and 'modern" methods might be terrific for my neighbor, but don't fit the "feel" and goals of someone ten blocks away.

which of them are "right"? none of them? all of them? 

the only hard and fast "rules regarding working with bees are those we learn from their biology and natural behaviors.

We then try to build our hives and systems to fit around that information. for the most part.

The warre hive and method was put forth by Emile Warre to be a compromise between deferring to bee biology and behavior and man's intent to produce surplus honey.

I suspect it will appeal most to people who prefer to do what they think is less intrusive, thus thinking less stressful to the bees, while getting a decent amount of honey, not incredible amounts, for themselves.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks.


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## Risky Beesness (Dec 29, 2010)

One of my favorite quotes from "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Beekeeping".

After referring to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, "the more closely something is observed, the more the act of the observation itself affects the subject of the observation."

he goes on to say,

"Performing a hive inspection is a skill, one that will become second nature through practice. With experience you will learn what a good hive looks like and realize when you don't need to go through every frame. But as a beginner, have at it - it's the only way to learn."

There is no way that I will not be getting into my hives. It's tough enough waiting for my 1st bees to arrive.


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> I'm sorry. I don't remember exactly where I read what I said about bee trees and house bees and AFB. But, as I said about Commercial, Sideline, and Hobby beekeepers and their percent AFB infestation, it's in the annual reports from NYS Dept of Ag & Mkts Apiary Inspection Program, 1986 to 2006. I no longer have the reports. They have them in Albany at the Main Office.


So if one out of ten of my hives, being a hobbyest beekeeper, gets afb and one out of twenty of the commercial guys hives down theroad in the orchard gets it am I contributing more to the spread of afb with my 10% versus his 5%?
The percent AFB colonies in Apiaries of 1 to 10 are of a higher percentage than what is found in yards of 11 to 20 and 21 on up. Beekeeping outfits on the small side have more AFB per number of colonies than outfits w/ larger colony countts.

This is not opinion. It is statistically born out by Apiary Inspectors year after year.

Maybe Apiary Inspectors of America has the data. One could ask them for it.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

A lot of anger out there. :scratch: I find trying to disprove someone's "beliefs" is usually an impossible task. Be it religion, politics or bee keeping. 

The "belief" that all our problems with bees is because of commercial beeks grows tiresome and becomes laborous as discribed above. Ever wonder why less and less commercial beeks are posting on beesource? It's a shame because there is a lot that could be learned. 

Good luck this spring.


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## KeyBeeper (Jun 7, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Didn't the OP state that he only went into his hive(warre) twice? Why he noted that it is a warre hive I don't know and it doesn't make much difference to the discussion. Eronious information, imo.


The proper way to work a Warre Hive is to open it twice a year. That is not erroneous information.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Really? Only twice and never any more? And once you have opened it, what are you supposed to do? Or is just opening it all you are supposed to do? Seriously, I want to know.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

drice said:


> So if one out of ten of my hives, being a hobbyest beekeeper, gets afb and one out of twenty of the commercial guys hives down theroad in the orchard gets it am I contributing more to the spread of afb with my 10% versus his 5%?


If you don't recognize it and he does, then you are. But, if you recognize it and do something about it and he doesn't and doesn't do anything about it, then he potentely is doing more harm.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that AFB is spread more by beekeepers than by bees. The primary way that a beekeeper gets AFB is by buying it. Using infected equipment again and again w/out recognizing the disease is next on the list. And then harvesting honey from AFB colonies and spreading the honey frames around into a number of other boxes and putting them on uninfected colonies. Robbing bees is lower on the list. And if there is one colony w/ AFB, in an Apiary of 40 colonies, wouldn't it logical to think that the colonies in that Apiary would be the one(s) that robbed that colony and not the bees from another Apiary?


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## Capricorn (Apr 20, 2009)

20%. +/- 3%.


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## KeyBeeper (Jun 7, 2009)

There is nothing I could say in this short space to make in impact on anyone who is sold on traditional beekeeping methods. My advice to those truly interested - as you say you are is the read 2 documents. First - read "The Buzz About Bee's" - it will cost you a few bucks on Amazon, then read "Beekeeping for All" a FREE and a very old text by the Abbe Ware (died 1951) -who developed the original hive (now modified).

I don't think the Warre hive is suitable for commercial production, but a good alternative for the hobbyist who doesn' really care to buy or rent a centrifugal extractor, who is more interested in intellectual enrichment than production, whose main goal is colony survival and not the survival of a business. So if you are a commercial producer - do what you're doing - it works. If you are a hobbyist - explore the possibilities. It's fun and stimulating. 

Getting the most honey, treating the hive like a production chicken or cow vs. bee colony survival (don't care if you lose money doing it) are not equivalent concepts and the latter allows for greater latitude in methodology in my inexperienced but well read opinion. 




sqkcrk said:


> Really? Only twice and never any more? And once you have opened it, what are you supposed to do? Or is just opening it all you are supposed to do? Seriously, I want to know.


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## KeyBeeper (Jun 7, 2009)

Woo hoo - shooting for that 23 mark. No bar is too high!



Capricorn said:


> 20%. +/- 3%.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

KeyBeeper said:


> not opening the hive more than twice a year (warre). What are the chances my first hive of bee's survive the winter?


5-6


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm not really sure how to treat a hive like a production chicken. Perhaps I should read more books.

The method I've always relied on is to keep the bees healthy, well housed, and happy. That tends to equal survival, and a decent honey crop.


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## bimbyjim (Nov 15, 2009)

How about the "No feeding" part of this topic?

Anyone been successful not feeding syrup of any kind?

I'm a newbie coming into my second season. I'm a small backyard two hive operation and keeping bees for lots of reasons, but profit is not one of them.

I enjoy watching the hive, opening the hive, my neighbors like it, so I feel like we have the perfect hobby going here. But mixing and poring that syrup...not so much.

I'd rather leave plenty of honey in the hive than take honey and give back syrup.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts?

Jim


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

bimbyjim said:


> How about the "No feeding" part of this topic?
> Anyone been successful not feeding syrup of any kind?
> Jim


I didn't feed any hives for decades and produced tons of honey. The last few years I have occurred big die offs, start new colonies from baited swarms, and have fed some of them, particularly the late ones. Since the dead ones leave behind a lot of stores that I extract, I feed honey syrup.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Don't know anything about corn syrup we don't use it in my country. If bees are fed here, it would be honey, or refined sugar syrup. We don't use fondant. An interesting and little known fact is that white sugar syrup has a lower ash content than honey. Therefore bees are less prone to dysentry if wintered on white sugar syrup. So in areas where bees are confined for a long period during winter the bees can come through in better shape if wintered on white sugar syrup than if they were wintered on honey.

However the way beekeeping works where I am, not a whole lot of feeding is done. Most commercial beekeepers run a two deep brood nest. Honey is harvested in fall and most hives have enough in the bottom two boxes for winter. However a "wintering down" round is then done, and anything light will be fed either honey or syrup.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Birdman said:


> I check my hives at least once a month.


Why so often?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I've not fed for significant periods of time. I run unlimited broodnests, and I figure the bees should have enough stored to pull through. If not, then I didn't need them.

On the other hand, we had a long portion of last summer with no rain and therefore no nectar. The bees were having trouble building up for winter, and consumed a bit of what they did have stored. Also, I didn't feed the two swarms I caught last year and they didn't seem to get a good jump on life either.

I think I'll feed swarms and splits and hives I'm trying to make swarm for queen cells, but I'm still against it as a matter of practice.


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## NewBee2007 (May 6, 2007)

I think the issue is not wether a beek is a part time or commercial beek... like it has been pointed out, AFB is out there and can come from many places that have the contamination... old dead outs or weak hives (be it natural or somebody's hive boxes) or from commercial operations.... I am going to go out on a limb and say that the commercial guys will treat it in some manner and if they can't clear it up, then they will burn it... also, just because people are in their hives all the time, doesn't mean that they will "discover" it early and do something about it... I honestly feel that only experience will be what helps to educate people about AFB and how to prevent it... and it also depends on the state you are in, regarding what legal options you have in regards to resolving or treating AFB.... don't get me wrong, the possibility of AFB scares me too and I am not a big time commercial beek... but to say that a person that might not check their hives weekly or monthly even are irresponsible beeks is not necesarrily true.... I agree with the person that said that the source of AFB is the lack of knowledge about the source of combs and from buying used nucs and equiptment, since if the person that you got them from treats prophylactically for AFB, and then you don't ... you have a greater chance of AFB arising at a later date in time... so i guess it's buyer beware... stay observant... and best of luck to everyone for a great season this year!


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