# Visual for the 2 deeps for wintering?



## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

hhhhhhhhhh
hheeeeeehh

Something like that. The bees will know how they want to set things up, but that is the basic idea. Honey storage in the top deep. In the bottom deep honey at the sides with clustering combs in the middle. How the amount of empty combs will vary.


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## juzzerbee (Apr 17, 2012)

Dan- Thnaks for that, it didn't take me long to decode your response, but at first it thought you replied with laughter!  As of now my hives look to be setting up for the pattern that you suggested. If they are not to that pattern mostly, would you keep feeding them? I was feeding for the past 10 days, but stopped on 1 hive because it seemed like they had a lot stored. Also, is there usually a common area where the pollen will be stored or is it mixed in throughout the frames? 

Since you are in my general area, and a bit north. Usually what time/when do your Queens start to slow down or stop laying for the winter? Have you seen a change yet this year? Thanks, juzzerbee


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## kellymt (Apr 22, 2012)

I'm just responding so I can keep track of all your questions.....I'm new to bees. Thanks!


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## pedrocr (Jun 5, 2012)

kellymt said:


> I'm just responding so I can keep track of all your questions.....I'm new to bees. Thanks!


For that just go to the top of the thread and in "Thread Tools" select "Subscribe to this thread" and follow the instructions there.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

This is from _The Hive and the Honeybee._ I would estimate this colony has 50 pounds of stores. In Vermont, and probably Wisconsin, the bees need more than that. I leave a medium depth super full above what you see in the picture. You could feed them until they have enough, and still winter in two deeps.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Great illustration!

You want the top deep completely full this time of year, and in my hives the outer four frames in the bottom arel all honey -- it's warm here yet, and last time I looked a couple weeks ago there were still a couple frames of brood in the center of my hives. Couple empty frames in the bottom deep on each side of the brood, the mediums up top were all full on one hive and mostly on the other (it's been slow all summer, still feeding that one).

It's fine if there is nectar in the brood area this time of year so long as it's not completely filled, very likely there won't be much brood raising for the next couple months and stores there are a good thing -- the bees will use them up before it gets really cold.

If, that is, it gets really cold. Last winter was like October for three months!

Peter


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

I am still seeing some young larvae, but laying has slowed for sure. I am a relative noob finishing my second year. Do the math and see how much poundage of honey they have. I would aim for 80 - 100.


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## juzzerbee (Apr 17, 2012)

Great illustration, thanks for taking the time to attach it. I will need to pick up yet another book I guess! As for my hives I think I will add the bucket feeders again. I was just concerned about them backfilling since the Queens took such a long vacation from laying. I hope everything works out here. Is it common that the bees WILL fill in the brood nest area with sugar syrup if they see that the Queen has begun laying again? I don't think that the level off bees/brood AND stores is to the level it needs to be for winter.

If the Queens are laying again since my Apiguard treatment, do I need to add pollen patties to give them a boost or hurry them along? 

Also, since I am still wanting to find my Queens along with hopefully a few more eggs, where should I be finding the eggs to be at this time? In the top deep or the bottom deep? Thanks, juzzerbee


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## pedrocr (Jun 5, 2012)

juzzerbee said:


> Great illustration, thanks for taking the time to attach it. I will need to pick up yet another book I guess!


My thoughts exactly. It seems this is enough of a classic that it's in the public domain now. Project gutenberg has it in several ebook formats:

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/24583

And if you have a Kindle there's also a free version available:

http://www.amazon.com/Langstroth-Ho...8-2&keywords=langstroth+hive+and+the+honeybee

The amazon link also shows a 10$ paperback if you'd rather have a physical copy.


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## pedrocr (Jun 5, 2012)

pedrocr said:


> My thoughts exactly. It seems this is enough of a classic that it's in the public domain now.


It seems I was mistaken as I don't see that illustration anywhere in Langstroth's book. Looking over at amazon there seem to be at least three other books with that name, one by Roy A Grout, another by H. D. Richardson and another by Dadant and Sons. Michael, could you tell us from which book did this illustration come from?


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## juzzerbee (Apr 17, 2012)

As I break down the illustration by looking at it, I have a few questions. The bottom deep does not seem to have much of anything in it. Would this illustration be for early, mid, or late winter? I assume that the top deep is just a, "reflection" of what the bottom deep once held.

The top deep of my hive is looking to be on the correct track, but my bottom deep does not have much of anything in it other than a few frames of stored honey/syrup. I assume that the bottom deep should not be empty of stores or brood at this time of the year, although the illustration above shows the bottom to be mostly empty as well. Thanks, juzzerbee


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

pedrocr said:


> It seems I was mistaken as I don't see that illustration anywhere in Langstroth's book. Looking over at amazon there seem to be at least three other books with that name, one by Roy A Grout, another by H. D. Richardson and another by Dadant and Sons. Michael, could you tell us from which book did this illustration come from?


_The Hive and the Honey Bee,_Dadant and Sons, extensively revised 1975, ninth printing 1987, p 473

_The Hive and the Honey Bee,_ Dadant and Sons, extensively revised 1992, Joe Graham editor, fifth printing 2000, p 832

Look under "Winter Cluster".


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Juzz.
You are full of questions, and that's as it should be - the money is in the details. The sketch is likely relevant for you in WI but not so for most of the country. Farrar's sketches were used by Furgala in the Dadant 'big book' - without credit. They were both in WI. I speak up because it's not what is normally seen in the southeast.

Farrar was a ruthless investigator. He killed colonies (didn't say how) and then dismantled them and reported what he saw. Reviewed it again overnight. Had no problem finding it in my copy - a Post It marked the pages for comment some day. Like today.

First off, we don't normally see the pollen band at the top. In our area there is normally good nectar availability all through the spring season. The top of the expanding broodnest is normally a thin band of liquid feed - thinned honey and/or nectar. Pollen is stored at the sides of the broodnest. However, we did see one season in 20 where there was a one-inch band of pollen at the top. Nectar was scarce in the swarm prep season, and colonies started backfilling the broodnest with pollen - or at least that was my interpretation of the abnormality. Farrar reported that the band of pollen was stored in the early season. Maybe you folks in WI always have a nectar shortage in the backfilling period of swarm preps. Will come back to this after my village run.

Walt


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

A second item where what I see differs from the sketch is the open cell area for "clustering." Had seen that reference many times in northern literature, and wondered what was meant. Locally, the bees will completely fill the broodnest with nectar when conditions support it. If they have reared their full compliment of wintering bees and field nectar is still available, they leave no empty cells. In our milder winter, they have no trouble maintaining cluster temperature with the cells filled. Consuming the underfoot nectar in early winter for heating fuel makes empty cells for mid winter brood.

Genetic variation and irregular seasonal flows make for several different brood/stores layouts in early fall. We'll mention a few. In all the below, the colony survives our mild winter, but some may emerge from winter not at full strength. We will just treat the double deep.

The norm: Overwintered in bottom deep. Top deep capped honey.
Come spring expansion, broodnest expands into 1/2 the upper deep. Backfilling of swarm preps reduces the broodnest back to the lower deep. At mainflow, the upper deep nectar is capped. The broodnest remains in the lower deep for the rest of the season and they will winter as they did the previous season.

Other 1: Configuration same overwinter.
For whatever reason, during the spring flow, the broodnest shifts into the upper and the lower is largely abandoned, except for outside frames of capped honey and often frames of pollen. The broodnest remains in upper for the rest of the season. We suspect this condition is caused by some irregularity in the flow pattern that season. The 2 seasons that we have seen this happen, nearly half the colonies exibited the anomaly. 

Other 2: Same starting point in spring.
All spring, summer, and early fall same as the norm above, except for backfilling the broodnest during closeout. Not enough nectar in the field to backfill the broodnest during the closeout process. About first freeze, the colony finding itself clustered over empty comb relocates into the upper on solid capped honey. If fed generously by some quick method, the colony can be induced to relocate back down into the lower deep prepared for winter. Note that we are not normally looking in colonies at that point in the season,
but I go out of my way to monitor backfilling during closeout, and feed if necessary.

Since a single deep of stores will sustain a colony in winter here, niether of those conditions will kill a colony here. But what about Yankeeland?

Walt
Always radical.


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## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

I too am new to beekeeping and observing a hive this time of year. I am in NYC and I went to take some honey from my top box of four medium boxes and found mostly brood. My hive looks like the picture except I have brood right up to the top. This is probably because I just took off a super. I guess I am concerned they they will not be able access the honey in the hive if their instinct is to move up. My bottom box is virtually empty but I am getting mixed advice about whether to move it to the top. Will the bees reduce the brood and make room for honey on their own?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>wcubed;854766 
You are full of questions, and that's as it should be - the money is in the details. The sketch is likely relevant for you in WI but not so for most of the country. Farrar's sketches were used by Furgala in the Dadant 'big book' - without credit. They were both in WI. I speak up because it's not what is normally seen in the southeast.

I can't speak for the Southeast Walt, but for those wintering in the north, where we actually have a winter, The picture is exactly as I find it...although I would have a medium of honey above the double deep. 


First off, we don't normally see the pollen band at the top. 

Have you ever extracted the top box of a broodnest? I have. Full of pollen, placed there under honey, and ready for late winte/early spring brood rearing

>>In our area there is normally good nectar availability all through the spring season. The top of the expanding broodnest is normally a thin band of liquid feed - thinned honey and/or nectar. Pollen is stored at the sides of the broodnest. However, we did see one season in 20 where there was a one-inch band of pollen at the top. Nectar was scarce in the swarm prep season, and colonies started backfilling the broodnest with pollen - or at least that was my interpretation of the abnormality. Farrar reported that the band of pollen was stored in the early season. Maybe you folks in WI always have a nectar shortage in the backfilling period of swarm preps. Will come back to this after my village run.

The picture is of a cluster raedy for winter...not a cluster expanding in the spring. I believe that pollen is stored there as broodrearing moves down to a lower box...caused by the incoming fall flow.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>A second item where what I see differs from the sketch is the open cell area for "clustering." Had seen that reference many times in northern literature, and wondered what was meant. Locally, the bees will completely fill the broodnest with nectar when conditions support it. If they have reared their full compliment of wintering bees and field nectar is still available, they leave no empty cells. In our milder winter, they have no trouble maintaining cluster temperature with the cells filled. Consuming the underfoot nectar in early winter for heating fuel makes empty cells for mid winter brood.

Well, again. You don't have the winter we do in the north. Temperatures below zero for long periods...20-30 below some nights. The bees winter with that "clustering space" so they can regulate the temperature in the core of the broodnest. If you took apart a hive here in the winter, you would see that clustering space. When a colony dies from starvastion, where are the bees? Their stuck head first in cells. Did they enter those cells with the thought...this is a good place to die? No, they entered those cells to boost the temperature of the broodnest in an attempt to survive. Well that's the normal thing they do. 

>>Genetic variation and irregular seasonal flows make for several different brood/stores layouts in early fall. We'll mention a few. In all the below, the colony survives our mild winter, but some may emerge from winter not at full strength. We will just treat the double deep.

Well of course. Bees do it every way...hence...ask two beekeepers a question and you get three opinions. 

>>The norm: Overwintered in bottom deep. Top deep capped honey.
Come spring expansion, broodnest expands into 1/2 the upper deep. Backfilling of swarm preps reduces the broodnest back to the lower deep. At mainflow, the upper deep nectar is capped. The broodnest remains in the lower deep for the rest of the season and they will winter as they did the previous season.

Here, the bees continue their upward expansion, consuming almost all the honey above, and turning it into brood. By that time in April, I add supers so the bees can continue their upward expansion.

>>Other 1: Configuration same overwinter.
For whatever reason, during the spring flow, the broodnest shifts into the upper and the lower is largely abandoned, except for outside frames of capped honey and often frames of pollen. The broodnest remains in upper for the rest of the season. We suspect this condition is caused by some irregularity in the flow pattern that season. The 2 seasons that we have seen this happen, nearly half the colonies exibited the anomaly.

No irregularity if you ask me...juse that different colonies perform differently...see your comment about genetics. 

>>Other 2: Same starting point in spring.
All spring, summer, and early fall same as the norm above, except for backfilling the broodnest during closeout. Not enough nectar in the field to backfill the broodnest during the closeout process. About first freeze, the colony finding itself clustered over empty comb relocates into the upper on solid capped honey. If fed generously by some quick method, the colony can be induced to relocate back down into the lower deep prepared for winter. Note that we are not normally looking in colonies at that point in the season,
but I go out of my way to monitor backfilling during closeout, and feed if necessary.

Yes, if there isn't the flow, the bees will be located in the top. Heavy feeding will obviousl force the bees down. But the colony will still look as the picture relates. The cluster will set up their broodnest the same, just be located lower in the hive. As would one of mine with a super of honey above. Still looks the same.

>>Since a single deep of stores will sustain a colony in winter here, niether of those conditions will kill a colony here. But what about Yankeeland?

Walt
Always radical 



Yankee Land?? You mean NYC and the Yankees? Come on Walt, we're all one here.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Juzzerbee. Check the weather forecast before you get the bucket feeders out again. Once the temps start to dip to below 50 degrees they quit taking the syrup. If you are uncertain that there are enough stores to make it to spring you still have options; You could make candy boards, or use the "Mountain Camp" method of dumping granulated sugar on newspaper above the cluster.


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## juzzerbee (Apr 17, 2012)

Wow! That is a lot of information to pull in. I think I got many parts but will probably re-read a few more times to "store" it all in my brain. I also need to get another book, I guess.
I feel connected to the two individuals you spoke of since they were both from Wisconsin.

So......what time or year or "stage" is the illustration from? Sorry I don't process what I read as clearly as others, I may have missed it.

YANKEELAND......Yeehaw!!!!!!! I like to call it God's Country!!! *Hunt, Fish, Bees, and Beer!!*I enjoy the humor, I get too concentrated on this bee stuff, it's good to be able to joke with each other. Maybe not a joke......er....ah.....Go Yankees!!! Thanks, juzzerbee


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Not a joke, but not intended to be demeaning either. I wouldn't be offended if you called my area rebel land.

Mike,
Would have been disappointed if you passed on an opportunity to jab me. We have not had a round in some time.
You missed the whole point of my post. Don't think I said or implied that I thought the data in the sketch was inaccurate. If anything, Farrar was meticulous. The point of the post was that the literature coming out of the northeast tier of states is often not applicable to our area. That begs the question: where, between here and there does it change, and how? Does it change in the north/south span of Indiana? If so, that state should have at least two sets of guidelines. Think about it.

Walt
Opinion trumps opposing views.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> Not a joke, but not intended to be demeaning either. I wouldn't be offended if you called my area rebel land.
> 
> Mike,
> Would have been disappointed if you passed on an opportunity to jab me. We have not had a round in some time.
> ...


>>Mike,
Would have been disappointed if you passed on an opportunity to jab me. We have not had a round in some time.
You missed the whole point of my post. Don't think I said or implied that I thought the data in the sketch was inaccurate. If anything, Farrar was meticulous. 

Not trying to jab Walt. No, you didn't say the sketch was inaccurate, you said it wasn't pertinent to most of the country. The point of the original question from a beekeeper in Wisconsin, was to give him some idea of what an early winter cluster looks like. I know of none better to illustrate how bees set up their winter broodnest...at least where there is a winter.


>>The point of the post was that the literature coming out of the northeast tier of states is often not applicable to our area. 

Okay, fair enough. I've never looked at a pre/early/mid-winter broodnest in Tennessee or anywhere else in the southeast. But i your explanation and examples, you seem to be describing the spring broodnest, swarm prep time, and backfilling. The sketch is of an early winter broodnest. No backfilling, broodnest expansion, or swarm preparations happening for months. Do you have a description of the early winter broodnest showing how it differs from one i a more northerly location?

>>That begs the question: where, between here and there does it change, and how? Does it change in the north/south span of Indiana? If so, that state should have at least two sets of guidelines. Think about it.

I don't have a clue Walt. I thought you would know...as you've stated that the sketch isn't applicable to most of the US. So do let us know where the change takes place.

>>Walt
>>Opinion trumps opposing views. 

Only when it's your opinion, eh Walt? 
Mike


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Mike,
Readily concede that I often yeild to my poor keyboard skills and over-condense text to the point of losing some of the sense of the subject.

Re the descriptions being about the early seasons:
Surely, you have a copy of Farrar's 8 Part treatise on increasing honey production. He was big on hive body (three) reversals to maintain increased brood volumes. If you look at some of the reversal sketches, you will see some patches or fragments of the pollen band surviving through the reversals. He even reversed into the beginning of "main flow." Our not normally seeing the overhead pollen band in the buildup period is relevant.

Your guess about the overhead pollen encapsulated under honey may be accurate, but I'm sceptical. From what I see, storing pollen between brood and overhead honey would be out of character.

We harvest upper shallows of honey that had been used for brood earlier in the season. Occasionally we find a frame of encapsulated pollen. That frame had been adjacent to the brood at one time, and was left behind in brood nest reduction. The cells had been filled with feed pollen to the brood-rearing depth. When left behind, the cells are extended to honey storage depth, filled with honey, and capped. I don't believe that encapsulated pollen overhead is deliberate. More accidental than on purpose.

Actually, overhead pollen encountered during buildup the following spring would be more of hinderance than an asset. Buildup is triggered by pollen availability in the field. They feed older larvae fresh pollen. The emphasis in late winter is on pollen foraging. Seems to me that fermented pollen would be in the way of expansion, but they deal with it.

Walt
Opinion (yours) inhibits learning anything in opposition.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> Actually, overhead pollen encountered during buildup the following spring would be more of hinderance than an asset. Buildup is triggered by pollen availability in the field. They feed older larvae fresh pollen. The emphasis in late winter is on pollen foraging. Seems to me that fermented pollen would be in the way of expansion, but they deal with it.


Actually, brood rearing in the late winter/early spring here occurs before spring foraging is possible. This brood rearing requires pollen, and that pollen was stored last season. Our late winter is still winter, and there's not much forage under the snow.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

True. Realized after posting that I had presented the southern viewpoint and should have mentioned your circumstance. Considered adding an edit to do that. Sure you would correct me, let it ride.

Walt


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Margot1d, 
Nobody answered your question. You've already encountered conflicting opinions and you can see that there is reason for that. IMO there is little to be gained by raising the empty to the top. You will likely need to feed solids in late winter - candy or dry sugar. Solids need to be in contact with the cluster to be most effective when it's cold. An empty between them is not good.

Would not expect you to have much fall flow in the city. Weeds don't do well on pavement or under building sites. But you do have some time left to feed syrup. You're in the mildest winter area in the state. Buffered by the mountains, adjacent to the ocean, and city heat loss all help. So feed now. And feed internal to the hive - in the cluster heat rise if possible. If you can master baggie feeding, that might be best. Tip - put a rigid panel under the flexible bag for handling, and hive spacer to insure access at the top.

Walt


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