# whats happening in almond country?



## lake thompson honey (Feb 11, 2007)

whats going on in california? what are you hearing about the shape of the bees? what prices are being offered for pollination?


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

everyones bees that im talkin to are looking average. the price is in the 150's$. it looks like it wont be such a wild year this year but you never know thats what makes it fun lol.


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## MadBowbee (Oct 10, 2006)

Hardly no fog so far, that will help the bees overwinter down here. 150.


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## lake thompson honey (Feb 11, 2007)

do you think that the bee supply will be short or long?


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>Hardly no fog so far


Not much rain either.



http://www.capitalpress.info/main.asp?SectionID=67&SubSectionID=792&ArticleID=37185&TM=60420.98
and this:
http://www.capitalpress.info/main.asp?SectionID=67&SubSectionID=792&ArticleID=37302&TM=60420.98


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## pahvantpiper (Apr 25, 2006)

"what prices are being offered for pollination?"

Just got my contract. I'll be paid on a graduated scale from 4-11 frames, $70 - $160. Anything 3 or less is considered dead and brings nothing. Anything over 11 brings the same as 11. They grade 15% of the hives and figure from that how many of each you have. The problem is is that you're not paid on an overall average, an 18 framer will not help you more than an 11 framer but a 3 framer will hurt. What's everyone else getting paid?

-Rob


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I can sure see potential disaster with this sliding scale. Man has 200 hives. 25 are three or less frames, forty are stronger than 11 frames with an average of 15. The beancounter approach says take an average of four frames each from the strong and distribute them among the weak before you take them to almonds. that gives you 160 frames to distribute between 25 hives and adds about $2000 to your contract. Down side is: weather is the pits and you have a time schedule so you do it anyway which stresses the daylight out of 65 hives. Load em up and add the stress of moving them. you end up losing about twenty to thirty hives by the time you have them back from almonds, but what the heck, those weak hives probably wouldn't have made it anyway and you have the money in your pocket, right? Wrong. The forty really strong hives that got beat up in the process will probably have about half that either blame the queen and kill her, or you kill her in the process of opening the hives this time of year. By the time they get a new queen going they lose four to six weeks of buildup and go into next winter mediocre as well as losing a season's production and not getting strong enough to split by May or June which you were counting on to replace winter losses. Some of the new queens won't be adequately bred because of the fickle weather and lack of drones in Feb. They will have to supercede later in the year giving them another setback. Most of the weak hives you built up will grade well in almonds but whatever caused them to be weak in the first place will still be there and they will end up poor doers next year too, so you lose about 20 top producers and another 20 that you would have lost anyway. Net real loss 20 hives, except what were those mondo hives that were lost worth. You make 2000, you lose 2000 worth of bees and an untold additional amount of lost production, and have to work your butt off to make it all up for next year.

Just a hypothetical situation, but with a flat scale the temptation wouldn't be there and I don't know anyone that would stress their bees or do all that extra work if they were'nt tempted by a few extra dollars. I would bet that someone with a $130- $140 flat scale who just put the bees that made the grade into pollination and left the rest home would come out way ahead of the guy who tried to make the best out of a sliding scale with a high top rate and expected to write off his losses.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

I would bet that if you did your fall work on time that Rob's pay scale pays better than $140 per hive average.

I heard it's dry and warm in CA and the bees are robbing hard for this time of year. I suppose it depends more on the location and how many hives are in the area.

Hearing $150 to $160 for GOOD bees.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

pahvantpiper;277587 Anything over 11 brings the same as 11.
-Rob[/QUOTE said:


> Rob, That's embarrssing. You should ask the grower if he/she gets paid for all the crop or just part of the crop.
> 
> And... if it's a poor crop does the price go up.... imagine that.
> 
> Contract rating... D-


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

It is interesting that many growers are quick to want to ding a beek for the dinks, but often do not want to acknowledge the hives that can be sometimes 2x the contracted strength.

One of our queen clients with a longstanding grower relationship has an interesting contract arrangement. They agree on an average frame count and the the grower agrees to pay a bonus for every frame over the contracted average. Last season he contracted for 8 frames and averaged 11 which boosted the hive rental from $150 to $165. Perhaps the extra bee frames would have been more profitably used to make new pollination units ala Keith Jarret style but that still seems like great $$ and everybody was very happy.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well there has been much said about grade and bonuses of hives.

Well this is my approch when this subject comes up.

If they want bees paid on a progressive scale,I give them my scale.

TWENTY DOLLARS A FRAME.

So a five frame $100 seven=$140 nine=$180 eleven=$220

This is a very fair scale, but seldom done by keepers.


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## pahvantpiper (Apr 25, 2006)

Keith, have you found a single almond grower that will pay you based upon these numbers? Kudos to you if you have.


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## Yukon Jack (Jan 25, 2007)

Pahvantpiper,
Talk of $20 a frame for almond pollination bees ( although might happen in a severe shortage of bees and a price paid by almond growers I would love to see) is simply talk. I have been around pollination for a very long time and have lost contracts for pollination (other than almonds) for trying to raise the fees as low as a couple dollars a hive. 

I have been able to get growers to pay a fuel surcharge. 

I assure you when growers (regardless of crop) get wind of you even thinking of raising the price they start looking around. I personally care less what others are charging and might charge a grower 10 miles away in another orchard a different fee than another. I figure a profit margin and then take logistics into setting the price. 

At the rate Keith has proposed $20 a frame a thriteen frames of bees hive would rent for 260 a hive( right Keith?) Fees of 260 to 300 a single hive scares almond growers bad! The growers I have dealt with think of bringing in a higher number of hives than needed not the other way around! Pahvantpiper don't you agree? 

I doubt those growers would risk pollination by using a thousand hives instead of the two thousand they always have used based on the beekeeper saying his 1000 will do the work of 2000. New ideas are a hard sell to long time growers but everytime you California guys get the almond prices raised the Midwest beekeeper gets a raise also. 


Pahvantpiper I see you are from madera county. has the SHB situation improved since last year? Are the SHb causing problems? Although easily found I have heard of no serious problems.

Yukon Jack


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## Yukon Jack (Jan 25, 2007)

Sorry Pahvantpiper I see Madbowbee is from madera. SHB an issue in Madera Madbowbee?

Yukon jack


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Yukon Jack, I mean Bob.....

One Large... Large... bee outfit cut the price to $80 a box last year, when they were graded they came up with a 2.3 avg.

Last year when I was unloading a grower stop and asked me what I was charging..... He said thats high, so I asked him what he was paying, he said $120 for a five framer's. So I said that's high, over twenty dollars a frame.

Can you guess what a package would be... Ouch that's high.

Nice to hear from you again, Bob.


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## pahvantpiper (Apr 25, 2006)

"The growers I have dealt with think of bringing in a higher number of hives than needed not the other way around! Pahvantpiper don't you agree?"

They do seem to be willing to pay a lot for small ones and less for large ones based on frame average. I'm getting paid $70 for a 4 framer (almost $20/frame) but if I average 13 frames like I did last year I'll likely only recieve about $150 (only a little over $10/hive). So yes, the inncentive is to split every hive and take in twice as many smaller hives.

-Rob


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

not that I have anything in this deal (ie almond pollination).. it would seem to me that since the effectiveness of a pollination unit is non linear that the payment scale should be non linear. from the grower point of view distribution of pollination units that graded weak to extremely strong would be problamatic and is likely why they focus on just numbers (likely convertable to pollination units/acre) graded to some acceptable average.

good luck to you guys and merry christmas...


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## Yukon Jack (Jan 25, 2007)

>One large large bee outfit cut the price to $80 a box last year, when they were graded they came up with a 2.3 average.

A 2.3 average in beekeeper terms usually means around five to six frames of bees as the graders to not count bees in the bottom box if not full frames. One Midwest beekeeper which says he is never going back to almonds said the most shocking grading he saw with his bees last year was a two story hive full of bees from the Midwest which was not even counted as the dumb --- grader could not find any brood. Not unusal for bees coming from the Midwest in January. 

Midwest hives are full of winter bees which do not die in the first few days of almond pollination (another best kept California secret) like California feedlot bees which have been around for months. Winter bees are fed different amounts of Royal jelly. Longivity is not needed in areas of mild winters as they are in the upper Midwest and Canada. Those are the long lived bees. 

Also the example of 80 dollars for a 2.3 frame average = $34.78 a frame. Way higher than Keiths $20 a frame. However on $13.33 a frame if based on the real frame count ( 6) maybe low. Still dropping bees into almonds for a quick buildup before Texas tallow and splitting plus picking up $80 a hive is still making money. I bet the almond grower still got a bumper crop. 

Yukon Jack

" stupidity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result"


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

I hear they are finally getting rain out there. We got back a week or so ago from Fresno, north of Fresno and it was so dry, irrigation ditches all dry, very little water for the bees, very bad.

>>>_Also the example of 80 dollars for a 2.3 frame average ........... I bet the almond grower still got a bumper crop.<<<_

I heard one grower sued that beek for breach of contract for the value of the almond crop (and won) because there was NOT sufficient pollination to set the fruit. Other lawsuits in progress. 
Sheri


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Yukon Jack;278088A 2.3 average in beekeeper terms usually means around five to six frames of bees
" stupidity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result"[/QUOTE said:


> Well... You-Con Bob
> 
> I can't add much here, the second part covers the first part.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

I received another call today from another short beek. He is looking for some fill in bees to aid in his plan to bump an "out of state" beek from the neighborhood this season in an effort to expand their joint almond bee operation and corner the contracts for next year. He offered close to top $$ for 8 frames. 

Blood is in the water...


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Love the smoke but always try to stay out of the fire.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

JBJ,
As always out of state migratory beekeepers always seem to be hated by the locals. I write about those beekeepers to show other beekeepers they are all beekeepers simply trying to survive in a tough business. All have got names and families and are similar to you locals in most ways. Look at the propolis on the fronts of their bee suits in my articles. hard work is all most know. Most care less about bee articles or even reading bee magazines. Few have time for internet lists. 

perhaps you guys will embrace the hispanic commercial migratory beekeepers better when they start doing almonds. Notice i said *when* and not *if*. I believe i was told there are two million hives in Mexico and I know quite a bit of Mexican honey is sold into the U.S.. Several U.S. beekeepers have interests south of the border. Several have desires to broker Mexican hives into almonds ( making huge monetary gains at the poor Mexican beekeepers expense!)

JBJ you pollinate almonds in the northern areas ( your bee magazine artilcle). The southern valley will be the first to see the Mexican hives come in forcing those California beeks north. Price wars will start. Beekeepers will forget about asking high prices and only pray they can get enough hives into almonds to keep on supporting their beekeeping habits. Out of state migratory beekeepers will not be hurt for the most part as almond pollination was always one stop of many. Mexican beekeepers will replace many out of state beekeepers now doing almonds. 

Can you really afford a price war ? Does anyone win in a price war?

Do California beeks really believe the price paid for almond pollination will last forever without almond growers looking for a solution and return to lower pricing? 

The WTO protects Mexicos right to the almond pollination market. 

The smart businessman has at *least* a five year business plan and is always looking for shifts in markets (including almond pollination).

Sincerely,
Bob Harrison



Ps. I come on here for discussion. if I don't get respect then I am gone and you can try to get your comments to me posted on a moderated list.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

From what I am hearing there is not a lot of resistance from growers on the prices being quoted for GOOD STRONG bees. I don't believe that there are any big price wars going on. I do believe that there are few growers willing to pay $150 plus for 4 frame and less hives. Can't say that I blame them.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I look on the almond boom as just that -a boom.All booms have a bust sooner or later.Growers are being told to expect greatly reduced water deliveries next year.Gotta have water for the fish.Well I do like fried smelt but we can't live on them.I saw lots of booms and busts during my logging years.I saw desperate loggers cut each others throats for contracts while the mill owners got richer.
All I can say is enjoy it while you can and have a plan B.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Nick,
I agree. 

However when in 2002 most paid $45 for similar hives you can see the almond fees have effected the almond growers bottom line.

Almond growers are no different than large beekeepers. Always looking for ways to cut costs. 

In 2002 a 1000 hives cost the grower around $45,000 and the pollination job got done.
Today the same 1000 hives cost the grower $150 a hive or $150,000 ( or using a recent formula presented close to double the $150,000 figure).

from my position I do not see the almond grower which has always used 1000 hives to be content with 500 because of grading. Most almond growers I know want to error on the more than enough bees for pollination side.

regardless of the secenario the high cost and increasing cost of bees for almond pollination has caused many almond growers to at least explore alternative pollination other than U.S. beekeepers. Some large almond growers have seen their almond pollination fees increase by a million dollars since the prices started moving up by leaps and bounds. True certain beekeepers and brokers have tried at almond grower meetings to justify the increase ( and some growers have bought in but the OTHER fifty percent are paying the fees now but looking quietly elswhere).

Australia has increasing almond production and pollination fees are around $45 a hive. 

The future:

China has increasing almond production. There are around 75 strains of self pollinating almonds in Asia. The nursery which gave California its first patent almond tree has recently applied for a few patents on self pollinationg almonds. I called fresno last year and spoke to the head nursery man and asked if the story was real and he said. If you put a bag over the blooms and then nuts develop the tree is self pollinationg. He predicted before long all new plantings will be self pollinationg. He said commercial plots had been in the ground now for around five years for testing. He invited me to come and take a look.

i know of no U.S. crop which is charged the fees of almonds. in fact California beekeepers (not all) will do plums or Peaches for as low as $10-25 a hive after almonds and only a few miles down the road. Even pay to place hives in orange. Surely California beekeepers realize almond growers see whats happening.

I have no agenda other than trying to get all beekeepers to get a clear picture of the almond market and what might lie ahead. 


Smart business people always understand the markets they are in. 

Sincerely,
Bob Harrison


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Bob Harrison said:


> I have no agenda other than trying to get all beekeepers to get a clear picture of the almond market and what might lie ahead. . Sincerely,
> Bob Harrison



For that to happen you have to understand it first!


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Interesting points all...
Loggermike I really agree; all bubbles burst sooner or later and markets correct themselves if not over manipulated.

Bob, the article you are referring to represents the distant past for Old Sol, that was before the fork lift and shipping queens nationally. We have grown substantially compared to then, but in the grand scheme of things we are still small fry (or should I say delta smelt?) in a big pond. My last post was just to highlight that there are many beekeepers short and an example of some fairly cutthroat practices. I guess that is standard operating procedure. I do know that several of our larger queen and nuc orders went to combo grower beekeeper outfits so I do not want to burn any bridges there. We pollinate mostly in Modesto, however most of the calls from beeks or growers looking for bees have been from the Chico area.

Bob so when is that you expect the border to open? I expect quite a bit of resistance to the movement of foreign AHB via commercial pollination. Once the genie is out of the bottle there will bees coming from all parts of South America. I have heard the Mexican outhern border is very porous. Malka queens as been working to remove trade barriers for some time now.

One of the presenters at our annual fall conference talked about the almond growing efforts in other regions and the results sounded pretty dismal, even with the self pollinating varieties. Chinese efforts were seen firsthand. Does anybody have tangible evidence to the contrary? I think it would be a hard sell, but who know maybe tainted nuts and honey could be a nice compliment to the toys and tools.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I heard the same thing about China.That they just don't have the right climate to ever be a real competitor to California.
Though they seem to be planting more in the places they will grow.
http://www.rfa.org/english/news/social/2007/03/29/uyghur_labor/


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

JBJ,
I do not have a crystal ball to look at to see when the border might open but from checking into the situation (as pertains to California/almonds )those close to the issue say importing AHB in is not a concern as AHB has long been in southern California (over a decade according to LA area beekeepers). Also almond growers biggest labor pool is hispanic. Most are used to working with hispanics and feel they can deal with hispanic beekeepers. The first imports will most likely come under already existing Mexico/U.S. agreements. Mexico drivers can NOW cross the border and deliver the cargo ( frieght being live bees) within so many miles of the border. The hives would then be unloaded and inspected. Then moved on into California by U.S. beekeepers with perhaps Mexican beekeepers with green cards.

Later on when laws are changed allowing Mexican drivers access to the whole U.S. the Mexicans will deliver directly into almonds. Looking way into the future when the 10 lane highway is complete from Mexico to Canada Mexican beekeepers might pollinate crops in the Midwest.

bringing hives in from Mexico is not rocket science.

I have said many times I oppose opening the Mexican border to Mexican hives. However i am a realist and realize with the documented large amount of AHB in southern California it will only be a short time before AHB importation will not be enough reason to stop the import. Especially under current WTO rules.

There is more to almond pollination than buying chinese pollen , making patties and building up bees and pretending almond growers will sit by and let beekeepers dictate prices they think are too high and out of line compared to other California pollination fees.

i predicted the Australian import a year before happened.

Certain U.S. beekeepers ( on this list and other places) want AHB queens from brazil. Surely all of us have heard certain beekeepers say the AHB queens from brazil are workable and the answer to our current problems. I do not agree but I still have met beekeepers which want bees from brazil. Several queen producers have started queen operations in Brazil thinking the border will be opened up.

Could the current single price of $20 for a queen bee in the U.S. be responsible. last year queens were .90 and packages around fifteen dollars south of the border. 

To survive in the future U.S. beekeeping business you need to be smart businessmen and head off threats to your business. 

Not just box movers and pollen patty makers!

bob


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Bob, the almond growers themselves are responsible for the low/nonexistant fees for the pollination immediately following almonds.If they hadn't lured all those hives into Ca. from outtastate, we could get a decent price for cherries or prunes.But with a glut of hives in Ca with no place to go, there is too much supply for the demand.
>>perhaps you guys will embrace the hispanic commercial migratory beekeepers better when they start doing almonds
Well , we have been working around/with Mex beekeepers here in Ca for a lot of years , so it may not be as unworkable as it might seem.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Loggermike,

That is correct, supply & demand.

Bob is preaching business model. He needs to take e-con 101 first.

If we were out in the middle of the desert somewhere with only one crop to pollinate then that model of Bob's would apply.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hopefully i have provided food for thought as you go to the California meeting. i attended those meetings for years but now i am trying to move away from beekeeping in other directions. Will be spending the winter in Florida. Maybe do some deep Sea fishing with Horace Bell. Both of us are kinda retired from beekeeping but not completely! Couple old beekeepers talking about the days when all we had to worry about was AFB. 

Should be a fun meeting but will be crowded for sure! Keep your hive tools sharp!

Sincerely,
Bob Harrison


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Looks like there may be good money pollinating other crops if some of these prices are real:

http://www.californiastatebeekeepers.com/news.htm


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## lake thompson honey (Feb 11, 2007)

california will turn my truck around from texas if they find too many fire ants or shb, but they are going to let bees in from mexico? i cant believe that would be allowed to happen. surely mexican hives would have at least fire ants if not some other new virus. we had better put up a big fight if it sounds like this could happen. pollination is the only thing keeping alot of outfits going since honey prices are crap.


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## Panhandle Bee man (Oct 22, 2003)

It's called NAFTA, and its rules will supercede anything that CA tries to put up to stop it. The last 2 years the almond growers have been quitely inviting some Canadian Beekeepers down for short visits, gauging their interest in bringing hives to the circus, when the Almond growers believe that US beekeepers can no longer provide the hives needed for their groves, then they will file the lawsuit to open the borders for movement of bee hives across the borders. Some judge will then make the "rules" that will have to be followed, the usual concerns about pests, breeds, etc.. probably wont be part of the decsion, and if they are, it would be the current USDA rules.

It would be welcome to NAFTA at its finest.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

Panhandle Bee man said:


> It's called NAFTA, It would be welcome to NAFTA at its finest.


NAFTA will open the Northern Boarder

CAFTA will let the Mexican boarder be opened, Bush pushed this and got it past in 2005 (Central American Free Trade Agreement) isn't our government something special! 

WE JUST SURROUNDED BY AFTA's


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## Panhandle Bee man (Oct 22, 2003)

NAFTA applies to Mexico also, CAFTA lets in the rest of Central America. My prediction is a law suit will be filed in Dec 08/Jan 09, if the price of almonds holds up.


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

The young man I sold out to renewed his contract with a grower he has worked with for several years. $140.00 ea. He has some nice bees that have averaged slightly above 6 frame in past years. One large grower that I see each month is still looking. 20,000 acres. I can not name names, but last year they took a hard look at what they were renting and did not like what they saw. Years back they used Joe Traynor and I worked in their orchards with beeks from San Diego county. The hives were huge. On a decent year San Diego Co. has nectar all winter and sage starts immediatly after almonds, so beeks want huge hives coming out of almonds. If they could get those bees back, they would only need one hive per acre. Lets see: one hive at $170.00 or two at $110.00. Which is the best deal. I am in the water business now and this water shortage could stress trees so bad that they could not sustain a large nut set. We have no idea where the price of water will go. Last years $100.00 acre foot of water is going for $1000.00. What I am trying to say is don't gamble on almonds being healthy enough to set a crop in year 2008-2009.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Voting out the idiot globalists and their open border agenda needs to be done soon. 
The water shortages are a problem that may be the beginning of the end for large scale almond growing, though I really hope not.Theres still time for the weather to change,though my gut feeling is for a dry season.We have had a couple of small rain storms but nothing substantial here in the mountains .Runoff from the mountains is what fills the reservoirs for the Valley farmers .
Spanish olives that can be mechanically harvested (for oil)and use half the water of almonds are being planted on several thousand acres.Delta smelt fried in olive oil?


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## lake thompson honey (Feb 11, 2007)

Heard more stories yesterday about bees dying in california from a reliable source. Seems that some outfits are having problems and some are not.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lake T.
I heard yesterday a beekeeper from South Dakota had lost half his hives in Texas down close to the place you winter if your initials are B.F. . His initials are D.E.. I will PM his name if you like as he told the whole Texas bee meeting about his losses. Do you know who I am talking about Lake T.?

I have been gone all day but have now got his contact information and plan to contact D.E..

R.O. from California told me about a California beekeeper in the valley having problems about six weeks ago. I heard several days ago from S.S. ( california 10,000 hive beekeeper) about a Montana beekeeper finding deadouts on arrival in California but S.S. has not yet returned my calls. I am going to try and call D.E. and S.S. tomorrow.

We are all looking for problems but I do not believe any are looking as hard as I am. The CCD team says they are seeing problems all over the U.S. but so far I can't confirm. in fact my *mole* in the USDA-ARS says its not so. 

If others on beesource hear of a large number of hives crashing with CCD like symptoms please post or PM me. I really need contact information to verify.

Sincerely,
Bob Harrison


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Ah yes,
We need to talk too S.S. and find out what D.E is doing so R.O can relay the message to B.F.

No B.S here.


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## lake thompson honey (Feb 11, 2007)

Bob,

Sent you a p.m. asap.

L.T.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Voting out the idiot globalists and their open border agenda needs to be done soon. 
>>Some judge will then make the "rules" that will have to be followed, the usual concerns about pests, breeds, etc.. probably wont be part of the decsion, and if they are, it would be the current USDA rules
>>water shortages are a problem 

Dont hear that too often. Your package and queen industry is in favour of open boarders, your almond grower, well, all your grove operators are in favour, your migratory beekeeping operators are in favour of open boarders. 
Your beekeeping industry in general would benifet in an open Canadian US boarder to live bees and equipment. Our stock doesnt hold much of a pest concern compaired to the resident pest problems further south. What kind of an arguement is that?

Do you realize NAFTA has brought huge opertunity to your country in terms of resources? Water, timber, minerals, Hydro, foods. Its all free trade open market trading. Kind of nice to have that resource to tap into, isnt it.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Ian, I can remember when we did sell bees into Canada.It was the Canadians that closed the border to our bees in an attempt to keep out the mites, which they had every right to do And they kept it closed ,long after the original reasons were no longer valid.
The US lumber producers slowed down the flow of subsidized lumber coming from Canada ,which was hurting our lumber industry.So everyone acts in their own perceived best interest.
I don't believe Canadian bees coming into California for almonds would be a problem,other than finding holding yards for them. I bet there would be lots of opposition on your side of the border, as Canada would then have to open up to USA hives coming in for canola and blueberry pollination and those big clover crops we all have envied !
My main opposition to open borders mainly relates to the immigration problem. The globalists/politicians are making no real effort to control who is coming in ,all in the name of cheap labor.Does Canada let everyone stay who sneaks in at night? California is about broke from providing services to illegals.But that is off topic.
The world being what it is today,we all have to act in our own best interests.It isn't in my families best interest that subsidized Chinese honey keeps the prices at below production levels.It is in my families best interest that almonds are exported to Europe in large quantities.Yet Europe protects its interests with all kinds of 
trade barriers.So it really isn't all free trade open market trading ,is it. Free trade should be fair trade.I am in favor of tariffs and quotas to make sure that a countries industries are not destroyed by a flood of cheap imports.
This is probably getting too far off topic, other than the very real question of will Mexican or Canadian hives be allowed into California for almond pollination.Any opinions?


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Logger,
"other than the very real question of WILL Mexican or Canadian hives be allowed into California for almond pollination"

You will always have the beekeepers like K.J. with their heads stuck in the sand thinking things will stay the same but those of us which have been in the bee business as long as I have been are always looking to the future.

If you consider the size and investment of the ever expanding almond industry ( which has huge resources) and their need for honey bees you realize the almond industry is not worried ( my Conversations with almond growers for an upcoming article) because all that is between the almond industry and honey bees are two borders. 

They realize under current trade policies the border can not be closed forever to bees coming IN. Canada represents only 60,000 hives ( their own figure based on beekeepers which said they would pollinate almonds IF they could return home.) Opening the Canada border would only be a boost similar to the Australian import but like the import provides needed pollination but still hives prices will continue to climb upwards.

Now opening the border to old Mexico appeals better to the growers because the Mexico border has enough hives the growers will never have to worry about bees. Just like Mexican workers bringing down construction costs in construction the Mexican hives will drop pollination fees instead of increase fees. Canada bees they told me would not be cheap ( a fact I could not argue with).

The almond growers are in my humble opinion smarter than many of the beekeepers they are in the pollination game with. They meet quietly to solve their problems. Support U.S. beekeepers as long as they can provide enough hives and are willing to pay the hive cost of current almond pollination as they know before long it will be a growers market.

The opening of the southern border would save almond growers millions in almond pollination fees. Millions.

LIke a high stakes poker game ( which I have sat in many) the growers are simply waiting for the first time U.S. beekeepers can not get the job done. When ( not if!) it happens then I would bet the growers will push for the Mexico border to open ahead of the Canada border. 

Not all Canada beekeepers want the Canada border open and are creating problems. 

Not so with the southern border as Mexican beekeepers are anxious get into almond pollination.
Also:
For a reason many *may not have considered*.

Bob Brandi ( California beekeeper) has said many times at meetings that his banker will not loan money on the honey crop you say you are going to get or on hives but Bob said he can toss down a stack of signed pollination contracts and bankers will loan money on signed pollination contracts. 

In short if the Mexican beekeeper with a couple thousand hives signs a contract for $200,000 U.S. a few months prior to February 1st. he can borrow enough funds (even in Mexico) to pallet his hives, buy a forklift or even trucks. Small time commercial beekeepers may not need a banker but large beekeepers work closely with their bankers. I am basically retired now but my banker has opened many doors for me. Go to the sale and write a check for whatever you want then come in next week and we will work the details out on the loan. Was scary for me at first but I trusted the bank president and he always covered the amount.

If I walked in with a signed almond contract for 200,000 and said I need trucks, a forklift and certain equipment to complete the contract then I would not have any trouble getting the money.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Bob Harrison said:


> You will always have the beekeepers like K.J. with their heads stuck in the sand thinking things will stay the same but those of us which have been in the bee business as long as I have been are always looking to the future.
> 
> Bob Brandi ( California beekeeper) has said many times at meetings that his banker will not loan money on the honey crop you say you are going to get or on hives but Bob said he can toss down a stack of signed pollination contracts and bankers will loan money on signed pollination contracts.
> 
> If I walked in with a signed almond contract for 200,000 and said I need trucks, a forklift and certain equipment to complete the contract then I would not have any trouble getting the money.


Well Bob, KJ here, head stuck in the sand you say. HA.

NO NO Banker here, why is that, HMMMM, it's because I'm smarter than the sand.

Bob, if you've been in business that long and still need a banker???? 

What does that say for your business model???

Or if you have to buy assi bees, What does that say about your beekeeping SKILLS??

Take a look at today's Photo section, Flyer Jim has a airal picture of my shop and bee yards, guess what, NO CCD HERE.

Sure doesn't look like Keith needs any banker. Gee I wonder why Bob?


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*You-Con?!!! Never heard of him.*



Bob Harrison said:


> The opening of the southern border would save almond growers millions in almond pollination fees. Millions.


Well I guess I know who I DON'T WANT to be the spokesperson for U.S. beekeepers.
Thanks for nothing.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Harry & keith,
Lash out at the informed beekeeper! I am sure there are a few informed beekeepers on beesource which understand the points I made.

What discussion points have you two box handlers made? 

Please explain why my scenario will not take place.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Bob, you sure like to paint a rosy picture don't you.

I can understand Canadian beeks wanting access to the almonds, nothing else going on in Canada that time of year, but I wonder about the Mexican operations. Assuming an open Mexican border, (a huge assumption) aren't there crops that need pollinating in Mexico in Feb that would compete with almonds? Maybe those crops (I don't know, strawberries? melons? ) would raise their prices to get those bees to stay home. And with the price of fuel, the hassles at the border (look at what a pain it can be just to get in from AZ!)and these suddenly low almond pollination prices, at _what_ lower price would the incentive to move the bees go away, making staying at home to pollinate and/or making a honey crop a more attractive proposition? This is the question midwest beeks ask themselves and they don't have anything better to do with their bees in Feb. I would assume it would apply to Canada and Mexico as well.
Sheri


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## Panhandle Bee man (Oct 22, 2003)

One of the key thresholds that must be met in order to break the door open under NAFTA, is that the growers will have to prove that US Beekeepers can not provide the required ammount of bee hives. The growers will have to use their established best management practises guidelines and demonstrate that there is a need for X number of hives to pollinate their crop, but US beekeepers can only provide y number of hives. This is also where the grading of hives helps the growers. They are establishing a baseline of what a bee hive constitutes. 

Large scale farming (moncultures) are beginning to develop. A number of Florida citrus growers have sold out to developers over the last 5-6 years, and moved to Mexico. Citrus farming in Florida is down about 50% of what it was 10-12 years ago. I was watching a TV program a few weeks ago, and there has been a movement of vegatable growers from California into Mexico also, these are big operations, however it still leaves a lot of farming in the US. From what I can find out, there is still no major pollination requirements in Mexico. And more importantly no major crops that definitly require pollination. I don't think that fuel prices are going to be an issue with Mexico, they still have cheap gas/diesel, so as long the beekeepers stay within fuel distance of Mexico, it will not be a factor. I know what you are saying about the CA ag inspections, however from my understanding of the trade agreement, USDA/APHIS will set inspection standards, disease/pest thresholds, not the CA Dept of AG. It will be a simular situation to what the Trucking industry is fighting. Mexican trucks have to met US DOT standards, but not individual state standards. 

What prices would Mexican beekeepers accept for almond pollination? Probably low enough that you couldn't afford to compete with them. Plus they wouldn't need holding yards, they could drive from Mexico, unload their bees at the almonds, pick them up after the contract was completed, and go to either their next pollination contract, or go home. 

All this though is contingent on US Beekeeper being unable to provide the needed number of hives, at the required strength. Which in its self is dependant on the Almond growers/Almond prices/water availability, and prices.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

All this though is contingent on US Beekeeper being unable to provide the needed number of hives said:


> Well, the almond acres will increase is 50,000 for the next three years then level off. So that's only an extra 150,000 acres, and asumming that they don't pull out any. So an extra couple hundered thousand hives needed max. Which can be handeled.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks to Panhandle for his post. I could not have explained better myself and when posted by other than myself helps me not seem the bad guy. Ignoring the issue will not make it go away. Be an informed beekeeper.

As I have said from the start I do not and never have supported hives from Mexico. I challenge the list ot find a post where I have ever endorsed the import of hives from Mexico (including the over 7000 posts I have done on BEE-L.)

I did support the Australian package bees (only after we had talked to Hawaii and they refused to expand to provide package bees and queens to us in January). Gus Rouse did agree to put on an extra crew for his old friend Horace Bell I was told by Horace to supply around 20,000 queens to use for splitting hives for Brazilian Pepper after the normal season was done. 

Gus did not want to go into the package business which is his and other Hawaii beekeepers right. However (like the current discussion) can't complain when those needing the product go other places.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Keith,
Thanks for the post. Lets be civil and work through a complicated situation which in your opinion will never happen. And your reason for believing such is? Convince me and I will help you convince other beekeepers. 

I had sadened to report that I am getting emails about hives crashing again. Had two emails last night reporting heavy losses. 

Keith says:
"a couple hundred thousand hives is all that is needed the take care of future almond pollination and will be no problem for U.S. beekeepers."

Consider:
If California almond growers really believed Keith's position why would those growers be courting East coast hives? Talking to Canada beeks openly ( and mexico beeks privately)?

Keith says to trust us and not have a plan B? Is all the CCD publicity in the media making almond growers believe there is nothing to worry about? 

Doesn't what Keith said depend on a healthy bee industry (and still below some estimates I have heard.) Also if grading gets harder are you counting the "dinks' too? You are training your almond pollination customers to only accept a certain standard. 

We shot ourselves in the foot with a large apple pollination contract years ago! We bragged up the hives returning from almonds as much stronger than the out of state hives the grower was using ( which was true) but now we have to find returning almond hives or the grower is unhappy. Hives seem to be staying longer in almonds so last year I had to put bees directly into apples right off the truck from california (without checking, splitting or feeding). Good for the grower but not good for the beekeeper.

I did think U.S. beekeepers were going to get by this season without problems but not so sure now. If the industry gets hit hard in february and 100,000 to 500,000 hives crash which were headed into almonds I do not believe U.S. beekeepers have got an additional 100,000 to 500,000 sitting to replace and cover contracts. I have had three calls this week from beekeepers with signed contracts and not enough bees to cover. The reality also is when a shortage develops the standards drops. Simple beekeeping past history.

Waiting for the day keith calls Bob saying all his hives crashed and he needs a couple thousand hives to keep from losing his contracts! Never say never Keith! Them good news is I would help keith if I could. We are all in this together!


Also panhandle has made an excellent point by pointing out what many of us has saw from the start that grading will help almond growers to show cause for a border opening. I will say you will find plenty of posts of mine both on beesource and Bee-L fighting grading . 
Grading in my opinion has never been in the *best interests* of the beekeeper. If so fair then why cap the top figure at eleven frames? When we send bees directly into almonds from Texas many of the hives are 11 frames or better. Should not the fifteen and sixteen frames get extra money? 

Another point is that operations like the Adee's have done a huge expansion to chase almonds. Which is causing problems at home as Richard is trying to do away with the long standing Dakota "three mile rule" which will make the dakota's basically "open range" and bee locations might be every half mile with even holding yards in prime areas. What about the Dakota beeks which have had those registered locations for decades? Why should they pay for the California gold rush to almonds. Overcrowding hurts beekeeping!

In other words " what do you do with *all* the hives created for almonds after almonds?"
I was asked the very question and depopulation seemed to be about the only answer with current honey prices and not enough prime locations in many areas for all these hives. 
California beeks have got the bulk bee sales sowed up but another California best kept secret.

Also something for Canadian beekeepers to consider. Those California beekeepers wanting to ship their bees out of California could ship to Canada to the Peace River district. Actually informed canada beekeepers have considered the problem and are responsible for the border staying closed.
Also something to consider is Mexico hives are closer than East coast and Canada hives and due to the warmer weather can be worked right before shipment.
Comments?


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## florida pollinator (Jul 31, 2006)

Bob
all you have to do with those extra cali hives is wait for wait for the "CCD" that is somewhere out there to get them.
You mentioned H Bell, is he up and running again down here in the beetle state??


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Florida pollinator,
When Horace gave me his swarm catching boxes (which I had admired and thought I would duplicate back home) he said he was retiring for sure. I reminded Horace we both retired in 1998. He said this time he was going to stay retired. I believe he has except for the new hives he set up to play around with . I can't remember excatly how many L. Cutts said when we spoke in Austin.

I am sure he still has interests in other operations (like he always has had) but the beekeeper works on a shares and Horace has little say on day to day operations. He offered those type of deals to me. Phone and say you need bees and he would send the semi. 
The beekeeper provides care, supers if needed and extracts the honey crop and Bell Honey gets half the honey.




Of all the friends I had from high school in Deland ,Florida Horace is the only person I have stayed close to. I have got contact information of many of the others but because of honey bees Horace and I have always kept contact.

i have met many thousands of beekeepers through beekeeping but Horace Bell stands out as the most knowledgable beekeeper I every met. 
Our beekeeping history dates back to early teens. I started beekeeping with Horace Bell

For those on the list wanting to learn about Horace Bell google:

Horace Bell beekeeping 

and you will get over 400 hits and most are newspaper articles as to my knowledge he is very computer literate but never posts *unless * he is on beesource under an alias.

If so he has never told me but I can tell after a few days of our beekeeping discussions while visiting he has to have read some BEE=L posts to quote my position on various issues.

Everything about beekeeping was a big secret when we started. We tried to contact other migratory beekeepers and they would not give us the time of day.

Now all those beekeepers are goneand their top frame bars with their brands hang on the wall of his office. instead of wallpaper his office is covered with top bars branded with outfits he has bought out! My brand is not on his wall *only* because when Horace bought me out in the 60's and I relocated to beekeeping in Kansas i was too poor to afford a brand. As a joke I may take a top bar and write Bob Harrison Honey on the bar and give to Horace to make his wall complete. 

I expect now I own enough frames with the Horace bell frame stamp to wallpaper my office wall. using a brand on frames is the old way. A stamp if quick easy and you get better information than a several letter brand. Another idea I got from Horace bell. Among many!

Sorry for the long posts but waiting on a phone call and have got extra time on my hands.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Lots of good info here.Like Sherry, I wondered where the Mexican hives are in Feb.Are they working good flows ? Even if they were , it might not keep them from coming to almonds if more money can be made here.I can see why it would be a good deal for the growers-I bet those Mexican hives are just roaring full of bees at that time of year, and without putting a lot of inputs into the hives. Wonder how long it will be before some Cal beek starts setting up in Mexico? If you cant beat em....
AHB should be a concern , but I haven't heard of Texas or Fla hives being kept out of almond areas for AHB.


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

Bob.
I have seen Horaces wall of top bars. His secretary asked me to donate a top bar , I never had a chance though. Most of my woodenware is the signature Horace Bell box , plywood with the cleat style handholds painted brown of course. 
I have heard rumors he is up and running , making bees to sell in Ca. . One person told me he was up to 4000 hives , someone else told me he had 1500. Im sure they are just rumors though. He could run 5000 hives as a hobby .

Florida Pollinator have you seen the hive beatle traps that Robin at Cantu came up with? Pm me if you want and I will give you the 411.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

My guess is if he is up to those numbers he did so to give Lamar H. a job (married to his daughter ) or to bring back some of his hispanic emplyees enable to find jobs after he closed. he is better at runing the operation than the actual bee work these days.

Hard to say exactly the amount of bee equipment he has hid away in those huge buildings.

Was plenty left after the load i picked up. 

Man those slats are tough to get off! i have tried several methods but no easy way I have found. Or I should say my help had trouble getting those off. My migratory lids will not work with his slats. I ran some as lower brood boxes but I still hate to be using two styles of box so now all I have got left with slats are being used for honey supers.

he uses a nail about twice as long as needed and then bends over. Is that the way you do your slats Trevor? he does not glue so they do come off but mine were not painted under the slat. i tried many methods but was costing a bundle for the help to pull slats so i hired an autistic guy to remove slats. I showed the way to stand up the inside part of the nail with a tool. drive the nail out and then pull with a hammer. I went to a bee yard and when i returned he had almost destroyed around 10 boxes. End of his pulling slats and back to being a box mover.put these boxes on the truck! move these boxes to another skid! Bring me a couple supers.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Bob Harrison said:


> .....
> Hard to say exactly the amount of bee equipment he has hid away in those huge buildings......


We bought a thousand excluders from him a few years back, bet they couldn't tell we took any. I think they had over 10000 for sale at that time.
Sheri


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

At one time he had over fifty thousand for sale. I was with Horace when he decided to retire as we had talked about the pros and cons. Mostly I think he decided on his own and maybe wanted to get my thoughts. At the time he felt the industry did not have a very good varroa control in apiguard ( which he and i tested before release) and formic acid.

I saw the sale bill weeks before the industry as did a few other close friends and people he had done business with. he didn't care to sell me new drawn deep supers which had never been exposed to varroa treatments but I talked him into selling for which I remain grateful.

I had been replacing all my brood comb which had ever had fluvalinate or coumaphos used for three years and with his load I was able to complete the process.


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

Bob
I bought a Bobcat and trailer off him as well as bees back in 99. This time around I just bought bees, I was hoping he would sell his locations ,at least the ones down south.
I just use his equipment as is ,I am not very picky. I was told he retired due to health reasons , "that if he didnt his wife would kill him" . 
Horace is a great guy ,I always enjoy listening to the old Fl stories. I dont know him as well as you , but on a good day its fun to hear the stories.
He also gave me my first sample of Api-Gaurd before it went on sale as well.


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## florida pollinator (Jul 31, 2006)

Bob thanks for the information on the background of you and Horace,I know he's bought some(alot) of new equipment and a load of sugar,so I expect he's out of retirement.
Back to this elusive 'crabby patty" Keith is eluding to,I for one would like to see a shared recipe of it if it is sooooo good.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

So how many hives are we talking about that could be migrating north to California from Mexico?


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