# Accidental beekeeper in Los Angeles!



## Oldtimer

Well done sounds like you are off to a good start.

How often should you check? You will get answers ranging from "leave the bees alone to do their own thing", to "keep a close eye on them they may swarm soon".

My opinion for beginners, you learn by doing, so do. As often as you like. One qualifier, do not kill the queen. It's amazing how often new beekeepers will accidentally kill queens, I know this because I sell queens to these folks. So when working in the brood area, a less experienced beekeeper should start by taking out, very gently, the outside comb, and lean it on the outside of the hive. This makes room so that other frames can be spread apart widely, before taking one out, so there is no way bees can get rolled while pulling the comb, or risk of killing the queen. Other than that, don't allow robbing to start, and those are the two main basics.

A comment on adding the foundationless super. Bees start building combs from the top. If you add a foundationless super, there is a big empty gap between the bee cluster, and the top of the next box. Result, it is majorly difficult for the bees to get a cluster up there & start comb building, they may even swarm before venturing to the new super. What they need is a bridge. That is, 2 or 3 fully built combs in the new super, that are built right down as far as the bee cluster. The bees will take to these combs, and work their way up to the top of the super & then start building new combs. Start by having the bridge combs in the centre of the new super, then after enough time has passed for the bees to be established on these combs and working on them, you can start spreading the combs putting empty frames between, one at a time at first, to encourage the bees to build new comb.

You will eventually get a "feel" for your bees, and not need to refer to advice such as I have just given, you will look at the hive & just know what they need, and be able to do it based on your own experience.


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## enjambres

Congratulations from a fellow "Accidental Beekeeper". 

Last Spring I got three new colonies from my barn wall cavities put into proper hives and they have done very well, even surviving our extraordinarily early, long, and fiercely cold winter up here in northern NY. They have built up splendidly this year and are now in huge 5 to 7 box stacks. We are just about to start our main nectar/honey flow (black locust) and they are positively humming with energy. Before I got the hives set up I was just thinking that it was the "right thing to do" for the bees' sakes given all the challenges they are having. Little did I know that I would fall head over heels in love with them. I hope you have as much pleasure from your bees as I have with mine.

Here is something that you can get set up and it will give something useful to "do" for your bees that will be satisfying and still very non-disruptive to them. Buy or order on line a varroa monitoring board and the necessary screen bottom board to go with it and start testing for varroa mites. Set the screened bottom board up so it is on top of your solid bottom board and so the open slot for the sticky board faces the _back_ of the hive. That way you can insert/remove the board any time of day, even at night when you ordinarily wouldn't want to mess around with the girls. Knowing your mite levels will give you a heads up on one of the main challenges to bees right now. You don't need to decide beforehand what approach you want to take about treating them, but if you know the mite levels a big, important question is answered whenever you think you may have a problem.

If you decide to take my advice and get a varroa monitoring sticky board, post back here and I will walk you through the test procedures I use. I have learned far more than just the mite levels from doing testing all year. There's lots to be learned about bees by studying what falls down through the bottom screen. And, speaking as a someone who started with bees, first - and like you with no advance planning - and only afterward began to study and learn about them, I found varroa testing an excellent way to develop a feel for my hives' well-being. 

You can tell your girls how lucky they are that they don't live here where a winter overcoat like this is necessary:








Enjambres


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## AmericasBeekeeper

Welcome!


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## IAmTheWaterbug

Oldtimer said:


> My opinion for beginners, you learn by doing, so do. As often as you like. One qualifier, do not kill the queen.


 I suppose the need for caution should be obvious, but I never underestimate the power of my own ignorance. Tip duly noted.



> A comment on adding the foundationless super. Bees start building combs from the top. If you add a foundationless super, there is a big empty gap between the bee cluster, and the top of the next box. Result, it is majorly difficult for the bees to get a cluster up there & start comb building, they may even swarm before venturing to the new super. What they need is a bridge.


Thank you for that, as well. I will check the hive on Saturday and see how they're doing. I was advised to (and therefore did) use a deep body with a medium super, so I can't transplant frames from one to the other. Are there other options for providing this bridge?


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## Oldtimer

Yes. Remove an outside frame from the deep to make room, then prise the combs apart at the middle of the box to hang a medium frame in there, smack in the middle of the brood nest. Depending on flow or feeding, the bees will build comb in that frame & once it is done it can be moved to the top super. Replace it with another medium in the middle of the bottom super & do this till you have 3 drawn medium frames in the medium box, then put your deep frame back into the bottom super.

Yes it's a lot of hassling around but as a nuub you can learn a lot about how bees work by doing these kinds of manipulations.


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## IAmTheWaterbug

Thanks! I suppose the solution is obvious once you've been shown how.


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## IAmTheWaterbug

I've been told that I'm _not_ restricted from posting photos and links, despite my newbeeness, so here goes.

This was the 2011 cutout:






and here's that same shed again, in 2014:


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## IAmTheWaterbug

Oldtimer said:


> Yes. Remove an outside frame from the deep to make room, then prise the combs apart at the middle of the box to hang a medium frame in there, smack in the middle of the brood nest. Depending on flow or feeding, the bees will build comb in that frame & once it is done it can be moved to the top super. Replace it with another medium in the middle of the bottom super & do this till you have 3 drawn medium frames in the medium box, then put your deep frame back into the bottom super.


Thanks again for this tip! I put a medium frame with wax/wire foundation in the bottom deep, and swapped it out a week later. It had comb drawn out about 3/4 depth (I think; I'm so new at this!) across about 3/4 of the area.

I did this again last week (about the same coverage), and if the third one also draws properly I will do the final swap and put the deep frame back in this Friday.

Then I'll leave for a week, and when I come back I'll see if they've started doing anything significant in the upper medium.

The frames in the bottom deep are getting heavy with honey, so there is some nectar flow going on, but right now there is still little or no activity in the top box. There are some bees milling around up there, but they're not building or filling.

I did leave the deep (foundation-less) frame sitting out in the open for a few days; it had some drone comb and some regular comb built on it. Then I put it in my shed.

Should I remove the drone comb? And do I need to worry about any comb that I leave on it? Could it have been infested with something during the 3-4 days it was out?


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## Oldtimer

If the bees are allowed to build their own comb they will build roughly 20% of it as drone comb. So if the hive will be mainly foundationless there is little point removing the drone comb, cos the bees will just build more till they think they have enough.

Your outside comb will not have contracted anything. When you put it back, put it in the middle, so if there is anything wrong with it the bees will clean it up straight away.

Once you have the 3 drawn combs in the top box leave them in the middle till there's a decent amount of bees on them working them, and once there is you can start spreading them, there must be enough bees up there to draw the comb you put between them.


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## KQ6AR

Be careful with those Backwards Beekeepers they have a reputation for keeping AHB instead of destroying them. 
Their reputation even precedes them all the way up here in the SF area. One of our local universities uses them as a bad example of beekeeping in an AHB area.


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## IAmTheWaterbug

Putting the medium frames in the bottom deep worked out very well! I rotated the third one back up, and I now have 3 reasonably well-drawn frames up there. They're drawing the bees up there, too, as the first one now has some uncapped honey and some uncapped brood.

Re: interleaving them with new foundation, I'd read in other threads that that can sometimes lead to "overdrawing" on the drawn frames with nothing on the new foundation. Or am I confusing that with a different scenario?

I put that one deep frame back in the middle of the bottom deep. Based on their activity so far I suspect they'll have it all built out by the time I get back next week.


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## IAmTheWaterbug

KQ6AR said:


> Be careful with those Backwards Beekeepers they have a reputation for keeping AHB instead of destroying them.
> Their reputation even precedes them all the way up here in the SF area. One of our local universities uses them as a bad example of beekeeping in an AHB area.


It's a bit of a moot point, as Backwards Beekeepers disbanded as an organization about a year ago. But yes, the particular beek who did my cutout (twice) is very AHB-tolerant in his approach, which I'm OK with. 

My feral colony is moderately tempered. They buzz me pretty much continuously while the hive is open, but as soon as I close it up and walk away they calm down. One or two of them might follow me for 5 minutes, but I've never had a cloud of them follow me.


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## KQ6AR

I'm glad you have more common sense then some of them had. Enjoy the bees!


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## IAmTheWaterbug

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> I put that one deep frame back in the middle of the bottom deep. Based on their activity so far I suspect they'll have it all built out by the time I get back next week.


Looks like I was a tad optimistic :-/

The frameless deep frame I put back into the bottom deep 2 weeks ago still isn't fully built out.

The wired wax medium on top isn't much further along either. The first three frames that I had in the bottom deep for a week each (now staggered in the upper medium) are getting filled with honey and some capped brood, but the interleaved empty foundation frames have very, very little drawn out comb. There's a little bit, so the bees are at least paying them some attention, but they're not doing much.

Giving our complete lack of rainfall here in Los Angeles, maybe they're just not getting enough nectar to do both.

Should I think about feeding? Or should I just let nature take its course? I'm not expecting a harvest this year; I just want them to be happy .


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## Oldtimer

They may just be short on enough bees to do the job, could you post a pic or two of the open hive including how much honey they are storing?


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## IAmTheWaterbug

I keep forgetting to take pictures when I'm in the hive! But there seem to be plenty of bees in the bottom deep. Whenever I pull a frame, both sides are pretty much covered with bees. And they're all busy as . . . bees , and there's always plenty of capped and uncapped brood. So the bottom box is reasonably healthy.

I did my first sugar shake today, and I only counted 6 mites, so I don't think there's a lot of mite pressure right now.

But there aren't many bees in the upper medium at all. And they've drawn zero additional comb in the last 3 weeks. 

We get zero rain here in Los Angeles from about May to September, so there's not a lot of nectar, so this might even be normal. But this is my first year, so I don't know.

Should I think about feeding, just to get the upper medium fully drawn out and filled?


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## Oldtimer

Yes. They will only build comb if surplus nectar (or sugar syrup) is coming in.

Sounds like the bees are doing well, so feed them some syrup and you will be amazed how comb building takes off.

A jar of syrup won't do it, give them a gallon or two, and if they have room repeat in a couple of weeks.


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## KQ6AR

Watch out for ants, we use cups with a little motor oil under the legs of the hive stand.


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## cerezha

KQ6AR said:


> Be careful with those Backwards Beekeepers they have a reputation for keeping AHB instead of destroying them.
> Their reputation even precedes them all the way up here in the SF area. One of our local universities uses them as a bad example of beekeeping in an AHB area.


Waterbug
O, yes!
Sounds familiar. When I just started, the people like this "ordered" me to re-queen (from reputable source!) my feral bees because of AHB concerns. The entire bee-club was about re-queening and use of nasty chemicals on bees ... did you treat? you must treat! You should treat NOW!!!!! Ridiculous! So far, my bees are doing great without any treatment and without re-queening. They are definitely africanized (to degree). They are prolific and happy (I hope so). So, to me, the Backwards Beekeeping works perfectly! PM to me if you want to stop by to see my bees in Santa Monica! Good luck with your bees!


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## IAmTheWaterbug

Oldtimer said:


> Yes. They will only build comb if surplus nectar (or sugar syrup) is coming in.
> 
> Sounds like the bees are doing well, so feed them some syrup and you will be amazed how comb building takes off.
> 
> A jar of syrup won't do it, give them a gallon or two, and if they have room repeat in a couple of weeks.


Thanks! I started off with 4 quart mason jars of 1:1 syrup, and when I checked back in 2-3 days (I can't remember which) the jars were completely drained. I didn't know whether they'd drunk it all or whether I'd put too many holes in the lids and drowned them, so I put new lids on with only 5 smallish holes in each, and put 2 quart jars back in.

They drained those in less than 24 hours.

Then I did it again.

So I went back to Smart & Final and bought a 50 lb bag of sugar.

Is this normal for bees in a dearth? Should I feed them as long as they're drinking it? Or should I back off a bit? I don't want to promote overproduction of brood if there won't be enough food for them eventually. 

Is it better to feed slowly and continuously or in short bursts?


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## IAmTheWaterbug

KQ6AR said:


> Watch out for ants, we use cups with a little motor oil under the legs of the hive stand.


I have Tanglefoot on the legs of the hive stand, and it works pretty well.


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## Oldtimer

That amount could be totally normal for them to consume, especially if they were pretty short beforehand. Best way is to have a look & see how comb building & storage is progressing, will give you an idea of actual conditions inside the hive and how much more you should feed.

Re whether to feed continuously or slowly, slowly is better for comb building & stimulation, but the long term activity increases the chance of them being robbed. Me, I tend to feed a large amount, say 4 gallons at a time, then remove the feeder 4 days later so it's done & dusted quickly. If I want them to draw comb I'll rearrange the hive prior to feeding in such a way there are frames of foundation in places such as centre brood nest where the bees will draw them real fast while taking the feed. Always being careful not to over extend the bees and allow robbing though.

Now you have given them 2 feeds, next time the hives are open it would pay to check what they are doing, if all the comb they can cover is drawn & full of syrup may pay to give them a break from feeding for a wee while, but if there are enough bees that you could move some undrawn frames to centre cluster & they can still cover and protect everything, do that and give them another feed.


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