# Sticky  clong 2018-2020 Treatment Free Experience



## clong

A while back, squarepeg suggested others should chronicle their 
experiences in treatment-free beekeeping. After seeing his recent
post on winter preparation, I am reminded to post my own.

I only have a few years’ experience with little success so far. I've made
just about every mistake I could think of, and a few that I didn't. My 
approach is a little different, so perhaps this will provide another view 
on how to (and how not to) keep bees without treatment. 

The emphasis this winter continuing into next season, will be on 
insulating hives to allow the bees more control of their hive environment.
Each hive has bottom entrances with no ventilation on top. Once the weather 
warms up, some of the notched inner covers will be flipped to provide top 
ventilation. I may leave a couple of the covers in the closed position as long 
as I dare, to see how the bees tolerate it. I plan to spend this winter building 
20-30 medium boxes, adding 1" of insulation to the outside of each box. 
These boxes will be used as supers, Lord willing.

All the bees I have right now have been acquired through trapped swarms. 
I am attempting to get improved genetics by making splits off the hives 
that winter successfully, and this spring one hive was re-queened with a 
purchased, local “survivor” queen. 

Going into this winter there are 3 polystyrene hives, two 1.5”-thick lumber 
hives, and a ¾”-thick single box with ¾” rigid foam attached to the outside. 
All hives are topped with 1”-2” of rigid foam under the inner covers. All 
hives contain medium frames.

My goals are to keep bees without treatment, and honey production.


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## tpope

*Re: clong 2018-2109 Treatment Free Experience*

I look forward to reading about your bees.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney

*Re: clong 2018-2109 Treatment Free Experience*

Get ready for the arrows:lookout: Good Luck, look forward to the reading.


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## squarepeg

*Re: clong 2018-2109 Treatment Free Experience*

many thanks for starting the thread clong.

a little venting at the top through the winter months is thought to allow excess moisture to escape, but with the extra insulation you have at the top it's unlikely you get condensation above the cluster on the 'ceiling' inside the hive.

any ideas about from where the trapped swarms originated?

looking forward to hearing about how your wintering goes!


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## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2109 Treatment Free Experience*



squarepeg said:


> a little venting at the top through the winter months is thought to allow excess moisture to escape, but with the extra insulation you have at the top it's unlikely you get condensation above the cluster on the 'ceiling' inside the hive.


I first learned about hives without top vents from discussions between two guys on Beemaster. One of them, Derek Mitchell wrote a paper touching on the topic in the Aug 2017 ABJ.
Incidentally, when I have seen condensation, (early fall & late spring) the condensation doesn't appear above the bees. The heat plume rises from the cluster keeping the cover directly above the cluster warmer.
The water condenses on the outer edges of the cover.



squarepeg said:


> any ideas about from where the trapped swarms originated?


I've captured 7 swarms in 2 years. Four queens were marked, three were not.

Of the unmarked queens, one was in a swarm caught 300 miles away in WV. I strongly suspect they are feral-ish, but I can't be sure.
They were very frugal on honey consumption last winter. They are going on 18 months with no treatments or intentional brood breaks so I am getting more hopeful that they might be survivor bees.

Another swarm was a large one caught early May 2018 in a suburban neighborhood, which has large tracts of older trees nearby. The queen was fairly dark in color, but I don't know if that means anything.
I made a split off this colony. It started to grow, but the daughter gueen failed, or was killed by August. The mother queen and colony still survives.

The third was captured off a road. The queen was dead.

Thanks for the encouragement. Last winter the survival rate was 50%. I am praying for at least 67% this year.


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## squarepeg

*Re: clong 2018-2109 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> The water condenses on the outer edges of the cover.


perfect.



clong said:


> Last winter the survival rate was 50%. I am praying for at least 67% this year.


not bad. 33% loss is easily recoverable from and comparable to small timers like us who are treating.

do you think you have unmanaged survivors in the woods surrounding your location?


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## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2109 Treatment Free Experience*

Clong, since we are neighbors of a sort, I am glad to see you start this thread. John Davis is a local source of VHS queens if you are interested. Last year I also had 50% losses, but that was due to late application of Apivar treatments on hives with commercial queens. My one feral (swarm) hive survived, was very frugal with stores, and exploded in the spring. I made six splits from it and five are doing real well. One got robbed out and died shortly after making it. I think these bees show strong caucasian traits in that they are dark with grayish bands and are heavy propolizers. The capped honey is what is described as "wet".


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## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2109 Treatment Free Experience*



squarepeg said:


> perfect.
> do you think you have unmanaged survivors in the woods surrounding your location?


Squarepeg,

When I first moved to my current property in Nov 2015, I set up my empty hive equipment. Over the following couple of weeks, on two different occasions I saw a lone scout bee exploring the hives.
The closest managed hive locations that I'm aware of are both about 1 mile away.

Since then I've caught four swarms in a trap on my driveway. Every queen was marked.

The short answer, is probably not, but I am still hopeful.


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## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2109 Treatment Free Experience*



JWPalmer said:


> Clong, since we are neighbors of a sort, I am glad to see you start this thread. John Davis is a local source of VHS queens if you are interested. Last year I also had 50% losses, but that was due to late application of Apivar treatments on hives with commercial queens. My one feral (swarm) hive survived, was very frugal with stores, and exploded in the spring. I made six splits from it and five are doing real well. One got robbed out and died shortly after making it. I think these bees show strong caucasian traits in that they are dark with grayish bands and are heavy propolizers. The capped honey is what is described as "wet".


JWPalmer,

Thanks. I've actually spoken to John about buying a queen, but haven't pulled the trigger yet.
If I have some die-offs this winter, I'll definitely buy a couple from him next year.

I would love to know if I had some truly feral bees, but I can't find a label or serial number on the queen.
What are the clues that your bees are feral?


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## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2109 Treatment Free Experience*

There is another thread currently discussing the difficulty of establishing whether or not a swarm is "feral" or not. I do not know one way or the other but it is how I refer to them. The queen was not marked and they were captured in an industrial park near downtown Richmond, just south of the river. They also in no way resemble the popular Italian bees.True feral, probably not. But I don't think they came from a managed hive either.


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## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2109 Treatment Free Experience*



JWPalmer said:


> There is another thread currently discussing the difficulty of establishing whether or not a swarm is "feral" or not. I do not know one way or the other but it is how I refer to them. The queen was not marked and they were captured in an industrial park near downtown Richmond, just south of the river. They also in no way resemble the popular Italian bees.True feral, probably not. But I don't think they came from a managed hive either.


I'm sorry, I should have said how does "one" know bees are feral. I trust your judgment, but I don't trust mine.


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## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2109 Treatment Free Experience*

To me, any colony that is at least one generation away from the hive is feral. That does not automatically imbue them with survivor characteristics though. Swarms caught from say a known unmanaged colony that has persisted for several years may be considered true ferals IMO. The four swarms with marked queens you captured would not even come close. Hey, last year I marked my new queens with a yellow dot. You didn't happen to catch one like that, did you? Little beekeeper humor there.


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## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

I did! 

Seriously, I've been trying to scheme up a way to put a unique mark on queens. Perhaps a large dot of paint for the current year along with a tiny dot of the previous year's ?


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## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Look into the tiny numbered circles that get glued to the queen's thorax. Breeder queens are often marked this way.

BTW, Applegrove is putting together an order for Perdue Ankle Biter queens for June 2019 delivery. Payment must be made by Nov. 30, 2018. PM me if you want the info.


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## squarepeg

*Re: clong 2018-2109 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> The closest managed hive locations that I'm aware of are both about 1 mile away.


understood. the swarms with marked queens are very likely from those.

for better or worse being in close proximity like that means all of you have the potential to impact each other with respect to competing for forage, providing drone genetics, sharing any yard type feeding, rob outs, ect.

if you haven't already done so i would consider developing a cooperative relationship with the other beekeepers. this would be beneficial for all concerned, especially if they have an interest in avoiding treatments and/or coming up with more resistant stock.

perhaps you could invite them to join our discussion here. maybe we could give them a hand with some swarm prevention techniques.


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## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> I did!
> 
> Seriously, I've been trying to scheme up a way to put a unique mark on queens. Perhaps a large dot of paint for the current year along with a tiny dot of the previous year's ?


Well, the current mark also has built-in previous year information.
Red marks done this summer mean exactly that - summer of 2018 (nearly impossible to have red marked queens still alive from 2013).
Clearly, you do NOT need to add a tiny yellow dot for the summer of 2017 (to denote the previous year).
What am I missing?
Do share


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## trishbookworm

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Dr Seeley, a feral bee expert of sorts, looked at genetic differences between established colonies - selected to be good at living under beekeeper-managed conditions - and feral ones. Link: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-015-0355-0 There was a difference... Which doesn't tell us a lot, other than the two pops aren't intermingling. We do know that at least in the Arnot forest, there are some slight behavioral differences - like a higher tendency to swarm and to choose cavities that don't ALLOW such large brood nests. So if you can get a genetic test, then maybe you could tell whether their genetic profile was different from the managed hives - you know, if you can persuade some scientist to come study your bees! 

I want local stock because the tendency to "trust" the weather and brood up early is likely genetic, and in OH with our roller coaster springs it could be fatal. If it was NOT fatal to a colony, that's selection! I want bees that can handle our OH weather. I want bees with a "pedigree" - the breeder knows what their mother and grandmother was like, that they grew up around these parts.  That's not a feral hive. 

I am doing beelining around my place when possible - https://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/bee-lining-the-oldtimers-way-to-find-wild-beehives . If you are going to do beelining, it has to be when there isn't a competing nectar flow, and it is fly weather - not easy to time in the spring and fall! 

Here is a cool paper about the lifestyles of feral bees - https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-017-0519-1 some were studied when the swarms were living in boxes, and some when the bees were in their natural cavity.


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## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



GregV said:


> Well, the current mark also has built-in previous year information.
> 
> Clearly, you do NOT need to add a tiny yellow dot for the summer of 2017 (to denote the previous year).
> What am I missing?
> Do share


GregV,

The idea of adding another color to the mark would be so that I could unambiguously identify any swarms that left my beeyard, whether to one of my own swarm traps, or someone else's.


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## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2109 Treatment Free Experience*



squarepeg said:


> understood. the swarms with marked queens are very likely from those.
> 
> for better or worse being in close proximity like that means all of you have the potential to impact each other with respect to competing for forage, providing drone genetics, sharing any yard type feeding, rob outs, ect.


A couple of weeks ago, I installed a homemade robber screen on a declining hive. It helped for several days, but then the hive dwindled and/or the robbers figured it out. It was probably a cluster the size of a racketball by this time. What could I have done better to prevent the rob-out? Would it have been best to just close up the hive and let them die?


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## squarepeg

*Re: clong 2018-2109 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> It was probably a cluster the size of a racketball by this time.


a colony that dwindled in november is pretty much a goner. 

personally i would have closed it up and put it in the deep freeze.

that way the colony collapsing mites are done away with and don't get spread to other colonies.

the viruses will also perish. recent research suggests the dwv isn't viable much longer than a month without a host.

the comb and stores can be repurposed as needed.


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## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2109 Treatment Free Experience*



squarepeg said:


> a colony that dwindled in november is pretty much a goner.
> 
> personally i would have closed it up and put it in the deep freeze.
> 
> that way the colony collapsing mites are done away with and don't get spread to other colonies.
> 
> the viruses will also perish. recent research suggests the dwv isn't viable much longer than a month without a host.
> 
> the comb and stores can be repurposed as needed.


squarepeg,

Thanks for the good advice. I failed to mention one crucial detail. It was my 11-year old daughter's first hive. :-(


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## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> GregV,
> 
> The idea of adding another color to the mark would be so that I could unambiguously identify any swarms that left my beeyard, whether to one of my own swarm traps, or someone else's.


Got it.
A good idea at that (if you actually can do both dots cleanly; but if you can - hey, a good idea).


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## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Apiary Update 11/17/18

Four of six hives were flying yesterday at 10:50Am. It was 46 degrees and sunny. The polystyrene hives showed the most activity, by far.

Hive 1706 is a 1.5” thick 8-frame hive, 3 boxes high. I didn’t see any bees flying from it. I think it has an undersized cluster, especially for 3 boxes. I used to see it flying before others in early spring this year. I am starting to think the warmth inside the hive has a strong influence on how readily the bees will fly in marginal temperatures.

Hive 1702 has a yellow-marked queen. 4 hives have been split off from it. Two were made into nucs that went to another beekeeper. Another split which was to be a successor to H1702, grew into 2 boxes and looked good until they died suddenly in late September. (That is another story) Meanwhile, the original yellow queen and colony were moved into a 10-frame poly nuc in September. I had sort of written this one off, but wanted to see what would happen. Hive 1702 now looks like they are going to burst the seams of their box. In fact, it looked like there were a hundred or so bees doing orientation flights yesterday.

Hive 1803 has a survivor queen. It occupies two 10-frame boxes. There is a Broodminder scale under the hive, and a temp-humidity sensor right under the inner cover. The sensor is ½” from the cover. So far, the temperature has stayed just about 50F, and the humidity has been hovering close to 80%. Right now, the cluster is in the SE corner of the box, so the sensor is not directly above the bees. I am concerned because this colony looks like it has shrunk over the last 2 weeks. The two things that interest me is 1) how warm they can keep their hive, especially when temps drop down towards 0F, and 2) how the humidity will very in a polystyrene hive with no top vent. As a baseline, last year’s wooden hive with a similar configuration averaged about 75%.


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## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

I am interested in observing the size and position of the cluster in the hive, so I’ll keep records on that, at least through the coldest part of the winter. During the winter I will try to measure the clusters at around 35F outside temperature to ensure more consistency.

Hive Report

Hive, Cluster Loc, Diam., Config., Notes
1705, Top E, 6”, 1 10F box,
1706, Mid Center,	2”, 3 8F boxes, Hive died approx. Dec 1st.
1801,	Top SE, 4”, 1 10F box,
1803,	Top SE, 6”, 2 10F boxes,
1806,	Top W, 8”, 1 8F box on top of 18” jumbo F, Bees moving around freely on top of sugar slab.
1811,	Top S, 6”, 2 10F boxes,




Hive 1706 died out. A few bees worked their way through improvised robber screen. There was only minimal damage. 8 full honey frames, 4 that were 1/2 full, and 4 fairly full pollen frames were recovered. Hopefully, these will help build up the other hives in the spring.

Some of the other hives are likely light on pollen stores. Does anyone have suggestions on how best to use the pollen frames?



“Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.” John 12:24


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## squarepeg

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

thanks for the update clong!

i'll post about what i do with dead out resources when i get in from work this evening.


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## Juhani Lunden

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> The polystyrene hives showed the most activity, by far.


One needs to think about if this is for advantage or disadvantage. In my mind bees should in their winter sleep at the moment, the less movement the better.


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## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Juhani Lunden said:


> One needs to think about if this is for advantage or disadvantage. In my mind bees should in their winter sleep at the moment, the less movement the better.


I appreciate the caution.

My current thinking is that the bees will do best in an environment that they can easily regulate. As Mr. Miyagi said to Daniel-San, "Make like tree". Whether that turns out to be too warm for the bees, I don't know.

I suppose the empirical test is whether they consume less stores, and go into spring healthy and rarin' to go.


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## squarepeg

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Does anyone have suggestions on how best to use the pollen frames?


so 5/6 colonies still humming at this point, way to go!

when i get a dead out in the winter i'll bring the equipment in, remove the bottoms and tops, and put the hive bodies with the frames into the freezer.

when i get more than the freezer can hold i'll rotate in/out every week or so.

the honey frames are placed back into hives that i have identified as being lighter on stores during the fall weighing.

the pollen frames and empty comb are saved until needed during the upcoming season. it's unlikely they will need any pollen until brooding begins, and i don't see that happening here until they start bringing in some of the early tree pollens.

sometimes the bees will use the saved pollen in the spring, other times (because it's gone stale i guess) they will clean the old pollen out and deposit it on the ground outside the hives.

i'm wondering about opening the hives that much through the winter to check cluster size? my general feeling is that it's better not to disturb the colonies through the winter unless there is a need to do so.


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## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



squarepeg said:


> so 5/6 colonies still humming at this point, way to go!
> 
> i'm wondering about opening the hives that much through the winter to check cluster size? my general feeling is that it's better not to disturb the colonies through the winter unless there is a need to do so.


squarepeg,

Yeah, I should should not open them up so much. I'll try to limit it to every 2-3 weeks, until we get to February. I am interested in understanding what the cluster is doing during the winter months. Also, how things change as they start brooding up in the spring. It will be fun to see if I can spot the first drones before they've flown. I am also confirming that there isn't any moisture buildup.

Incidentally, I have seen the first bad outcome with the plexiglass covers. Another beekeeper that I am assisting had them on his hives. I suggested he insulate, but I didn't tell him to insulate the tops more the the sides. Mistake #1. On one hive, his plexiglass cover had notches at both ends, and allowed cold air to flow freely under the insulation in the telescoping cover and on top of the glass. Mistake #2. Directly above the cluster, big drops of water were dangling in the middle of the glass, and were doubtless dripping on the bees. The cluster was still sizable, but discouraged, no doubt. I sure was. I instructed him to tape over the notches on the inner cover and to add insulation to the top. Hopefully, this will address the problem.

Thanks for the advice on the pollen. I wondered if I should add those to hives in later Feb. If they want them, they can use them. If not, they clean them out. Very nice.


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## robassett

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



squarepeg said:


> when i get a dead out in the winter i'll bring the equipment in, remove the bottoms and tops, and put the hive bodies with the frames into the freezer.


My problem is I only have space for a few frames in the freezer, so I'm unsure of the best way to keep the contents viable through the winter. I have two hives, one robust, and one that has dwindled to a baseball size cluster with small hive beetles scurrying around within the cluster. I am certain they are doomed. I'm trying to decide between:
1. combine the hives, harvest most of the honey from the doomed hive and hope the combined hive has enough resources to maintain an extra deep box of nectar plus some honey and pollen through the winter.
2. Try to equalize the hives by swapping them in hopes that the returning foragers will be enough to sustain the doomed hive without causing the other hive to fail. There are still plenty of foragers going out of the robust hive, which should continue unless a series of rainstorms rolls in.
3. Don't touch the robust hive, get rid of the doomed bees/queen and find some other way to keep the remaining honey and nectar pest free over the winter since I don't have much freezer space. It will get below freezing from time to time, but our winter is rather mild so I'm not sure it is enough to just leave the boxes out in the cold.

Thanks,
Robin


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## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



robassett said:


> I would not do this - 1. combine the hives or 2. Try to equalize the hives...
> 
> I would rather do - 3. Don't touch the robust hive,
> 
> Thanks,
> Robin


Granted this is all TF.
Indeed, many conventional teachings talk of combining/equalizing/etc....
Well, whatever.

My take:
Your small hive is likely to die off soon anyway - just let it go under and call it a good riddance. 
Put a robber screen to keep the mites inside. 
Harvest the resources from them.

Don't distribute the mites from the failing hive back to the strong hive by a combine or equalizing (you will just put both hives into worse situation by doing so - vs. the currently only one failing).
Instead, split up the survivor as soon as practical and resume.


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## squarepeg

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

if the temps in folsom stay mild enough through the winter for wax moths to be a concern, an alternative to keeping the frames in the freezer is spraying them with bt aizawai.


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## Litsinger

Clong:

I had the opportunity to read your thread and I am intrigued by your approach- looking forward to hearing your thoughts on minimizing ventilation and maximizing hive insulation. While I have not sought to minimize the insulation of supers, I have definately erred to the side of too much ventilation at the top of the stack thus far.

Have you read Abbe Warre's book? While I cannot support or refute his approach one way or another, he takes quite a bit of space to outline his thoughts on hive insulation.

As I recall, he felt that highly insulated assemblies consumed more stores because the colony remained more active through the Winter- which might square with what you are seeing? It will be interesting if your empirical approach supports or conflicts with his findings.

I look forward to following your efforts- good luck with your hives!

Russ


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## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> Clong:
> 
> I had the opportunity to read your thread and I am intrigued by your approach- looking forward to hearing your thoughts on minimizing ventilation and maximizing hive insulation. While I have not sought to minimize the insulation of supers, I have definately erred to the side of too much ventilation at the top of the stack thus far.
> 
> Have you read Abbe Warre's book? While I cannot support or refute his approach one way or another, he takes quite a bit of space to outline his thoughts on hive insulation.
> 
> As I recall, he felt that highly insulated assemblies consumed more stores because the colony remained more active through the Winter- which might square with what you are seeing? It will be interesting if your empirical approach supports or conflicts with his findings.
> 
> Russ


Russ,

I've been pondering the insulation idea for a while. I don't personally know whether insulation reduces honey consumption, but it _seems_ correct. My guess is there is a honey consumption/temperature curve along which consumption goes to a minimum at temps between 40F-50F inside the hive.

There are several beekeepers who report lower consumption of honey during winter with good insulation, vs no insulation. One is a beekeeper in NY, Rob Overton. I think he typically winters in a single 10-frame deep. He uses polystyrene hives. You can find him on Beemaster.com. Another, John Gaut, is in NJ. See the following link:

http://www.nnjbees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Winterization-and-Hive-Insulation-v20151013.pdf

As I recall, Mr. Gaut said he thought about doing a controlled experiment to compare heavy insulation vs. no insulation, but couldn't bring himself to keep a control hive with no insulation. He was interviewed in the following podcast at about the 30 minute mark:

http://www.bkcorner.org/episode-106-jersey-proud/

I haven't read Warre's book all the way through, but it has some good food for thought. I need to read the part on insulation again. 
Incidentally, one of the very first things that Reverend Langstroth mentions in his book, even before the idea of removable frames is the importance of a well-insulated hive. He had a lot to say about the importance of insulation throughout his book.

I look forward to reading your thread as well.


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## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> ........he felt that highly insulated assemblies consumed more stores because the colony remained more active through the Winter....Russ


What really matters are these points:
1)maintaining ideal wintering temperature - about 4-5C (whatever that is in F).
2)preventing wild temperature swings; instead, holding ideal the temperature steady

However you manage keeping steady 4-5C for your particulate situation is up to you.
But if you manage to do it - those will be the most efficient wintering conditions (in term of the fuel).
So if one could winter the bees in a fridge, that would be just about the ideal place.

Keep in mind, Warre lived in Somme, France with sufficiently mild and steady climate, and no classic cold winter/classic hot summer to speak off - close to Atlantic.
His climatic conditions to be considered.


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## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Clong:

Thank you for the detailed and helpful reply. You have certainly researched your position, and it sounds very logical, particularly for more Northern climes. That said, here in the mid-South our temperatures in the Winter seem to be increasingly wild in their gyrations- it was 18 degrees on Monday night and was 57 degrees on Wednesday afternoon. It certainly seems intuitive that a more stable and moderately cool temperature makes for better overwintering than wide fluctuations. One stat that stood out to me was the observation that, "For every 11F degrees reduction in temperature, the bees must work twice as hard to keep warm and function." Mr. Gaut's set-ups look very pro, and it looks to conform to his assertion that he can apply it year-after-year. Is this generally the approach (including the upper entrance) that you are using as your working approach now?

GregV:

Thanks for that keen observation- reminds me again that so much of beekeeping is local. Your analogy of the refrigerator is one I am going to hang-on to.


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## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> Clong:
> Mr. Gaut's set-ups look very pro, and it looks to conform to his assertion that he can apply it year-after-year. Is this generally the approach (including the upper entrance) that you are using as your working approach now?


Russ,

I'm not running an upper entrance. No openings in the top of the hive. I've got three poly hives, one wrapped up using John Gaut's method, and one with rigid foam insulation permanently attached on the outside of a conventional Lang box. I will be building 20-30 boxes this winter with the foam attached to wooden lang boxes. These boxes will be used year-round.

Insulated boxes will have less benefit in the winter the further south you go. However, I believe that they will still benefit, and that includes in the summer. Listen to Kiwimana Buzz podcast #84 for a commercial beekeeper switching to all poly hives. He said he made the switch in large part for the benefits during the heat of summer.


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## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Clong:

Thank you for your reply. I do appreciate it. I actually considered starting-out with Apimaye hive bodies initially and was talked out of it based on the anecdote that "bees don't like plastic"... that's a discussion for another time. 

That said, I like your logic, and it kind of speaks to the idea of mimicking a tree hollow as best that modern bee management will allow- enough thermal mass/resistance to attenuate-out wild temperature swings as observed inside the hive.

Also, I realized I failed to acknowledge your point about Reverend Langstroth advocating for insulation. I seem to recall him saying something to the effect that, "insulation is an important aspect of successful beekeeping but the masses will be too cheap to implement it. I wanted to be sure I had the gist right, so I looked it up:

"I recommend, however, a construction which, although somewhat more costly at first, is yet much cheaper in the end. Such is the passion of the American
people for cheapness in the first cost of an article, even at the evident expense of dearness in the end, that many, I doubt not, will continue to lodge their bees in thin hives in spite of their conviction of the folly of doing..."


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Hive Report 12/30/18

Most of the cluster sizes aren't very meaningful, because the temp was 64F 12 hours prior. There was still a lot of residual heat in the hive.

Hive, Cluster Loc, Diam., Config., Notes
1702, Top E, ~8”, 1 10F box,
1801,	Top SE,	5”,	1 10F box,
1803,	Top SE,	12+”,	2 10F boxes, No cluster. Bees distributed across all frames
1806,	Top W,	~8”,	1 8F box on top of 18” jumbo F, Cluster moved directly below sugar block.
1811,	Top S,	6”,	2 10F boxes,

On 12/29, temp hit 64F in the beeyard. Five remaining hives were flying. No pollen seen at any hive. 

Only two hives worth noting. Hive 1803 is headed by a purchased feral queen. It had hundreds of bees going in/out. It almost looked like orienting. I get the sense that this hive's population has grown since November. Could they have been hatching brood through November and December?

The new runt hive, 1801, keeps fooling me. I convince myself they are doomed, but when the weather warms up, they prove they are still operational. This would be a hive that I might have considered euthanizing, but I am curious to see if they can make it. I don't think they are shrinking. The entrance is down to 3/8"x1". Should I still put a robber screen on? We haven't had any deep freezes yet, so the verdict is still out.

I'll be putting 1.5 lb sugar blocks in some of the hives tomorrow.


----------



## squarepeg

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

good report clong, thanks for the update.

probably wouldn't hurt to make sure all of the activity with 1803 isn't passive robbing, especially if they are not clustered like the rest. watch to see if the bees are coming and going from the other hives, maybe pull a honey frame or two and make sure the comb isn't getting torn open.

i have all my entrances reduced down to just 1 or 2 bees at this time. if i have one that looks like it may have too much activity i'll place a rock in front of the entrance and make it a little harder to get in and out.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



squarepeg said:


> probably wouldn't hurt to make sure all of the activity with 1803 isn't passive robbing, especially if they are not clustered like the rest. watch to see if the bees are coming and going from the other hives, maybe pull a honey frame or two and make sure the comb isn't getting torn open.
> 
> i have all my entrances reduced down to just 1 or 2 bees at this time. if i have one that looks like it may have too much activity i'll place a rock in front of the entrance and make it a little harder to get in and out.


I usually leave the entrances at 4"x3/8". That is the only ventilation. Perhaps I should close them all down to 1" openings. Do the super-small entrances hinder the bees during a warm snap?

Thank you for the warning. I pulled a honey frame on 1803 on 12/29. It had a nice circular patch of mostly cleaned honey cells where they were clustering. No torn caps on the rest of the frame. The best I can figure, their population is great enough that they can keep the temps warm enough to break cluster. Right now, it is 50F outside. It is 60F in the hive at the top .


----------



## squarepeg

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

sounds good clong.

since there isn't any foraging going on the entrances don't get terribly clogged up. i can easily make them a little larger when needed.

i have small screened vents at the top on all hives, and the reducer at the bottom entrance is also screen over the 4" by 3/8" opening.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

clong:

I ran-across this research article this morning, and the results seem to square with your thoughts about developing lower overall hive body thermal conductivity:

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2018.0879

The key findings were:

1. _Desiccation of honey takes a significant percentage of the energy delivered to the hive in the form of nectar for A. mellifera, particularly in the northern part of their range where nectar is lower in concentration. Typical values show that over 50% of the delivered energy may be used in the process of honey ripening and even in exceptionally favourable circumstances for temperate climates, do not use less than 25%._

2. _The relative magnitude of the energies involved and the ratios of nectar to honey show that TEE of nectar desiccation should be considered as a key factor in the development and success or otherwise of honeybees in temperate climates where nectar sources are widely dispersed and of lower concentration._

3. _The lumped thermal conductance of hives, previously thought to be only consideration for winter, has been shown to be a major factor during the nectar collecting periods of the year and is dependent on honeybee behaviour._

4. _The energy consumption of nectar desiccation and hence TEE, limits the maximum foraging distance of honeybees. It also changes the energy return for a given nectar source and a consequence which nectar sources are viable for the honeybee._

Additionally, there were several other items I found interesting:

_While insolation may input energy in high thermal conductance (2.6 W K−1) man-made hives in full sun, A. mellifera, in nature, resides in shaded, very low thermal conductance nests (0.4 W K−1) 

Given the above analysis and observations, one may discount the outside environment as being a major contributor of energy to desiccation, and is instead more likely to be a potential loss.

One of the results of the model presented here is that higher ambient temperature with a constant honey ripening rate would give rise to a higher TEE. Consequently, the honeybees would be able to profitably forage on lower concentrations of nectar (provided the RH was not raised as well). One study has shown that by raising the external temperature of presumably a wooden hive in an internal apiary, the honeybees start collecting from flowers of lower nectar concentration; yet collect the same amount of sucrose by increasing the total number of flights, thus satisfying the model's prediction.

TEE… is a function of: the honey ripening rate, which one expects honeybees to maximize; nectar concentration, which the honeybees try to maximize from what is available; ambient temperature, which is out of the honeybees control, and finally the lumped thermal conductance.

In the models above, decreases in hive thermal conductance give rise to an improvement in thermal efficiency, which in turn gives rise to an improvement in HEM (figure 4), which allows more nectar to be desiccated to honey. Thus, one would expect from the analysis that decreases in hive conductance improve honey yields.

If TEE was an evolutionary driver of honeybee behaviour, we may expect the nectar desiccation process to take place in a part of the hive, where it takes less energy to maintain a higher temperature. This is shown by honeybees preferentially depositing nectar in the upper portions of their nest, i.e. above the brood nest. The temperature stratification above the heat source of the temperature-controlled brood area, reduces the heat requirements and air movement energy for honey production. The insulating properties of empty comb enable losses to be reduced away from the walls of the nest which aligns with the observed behaviour of depositing nectar on combs not facing the outside walls.

The requirement to retain elevated temperatures, and hence reduced RH where the desiccation is taking place, shows an all year round advantage for nests with low thermal conductance._


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> clong:
> 
> I ran-across this research article this morning, and the results seem to square with your thoughts about developing lower overall hive body thermal conductivity:
> 
> https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2018.0879


Russ,

Wow! That is all I can say. How do you find the time to gather all this great research? Does Beesource pay you a salary? 
Right now I can't take the time to read this, but I will be pouring over it Monday. Many thanks for finding this article and posting the link. 

Curiously, most of the research I've read on insulation, and forgoing top ventilation has been been from the British.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Curiously, most of the research I've read on insulation, and forgoing top ventilation has been been from the British.


I wonder if this is a function of their climate?

I really don't spend as much time on research as you might think. I monitor a few beekeeping Facebook pages, and when I see posts of new research, I read the abstract to see if it is anything that is helpful/relevant to TF or advancing practical apiculture in general.

Have a great weekend.

Russ


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Russ,
> Curiously, most of the research I've read on insulation, and forgoing top ventilation has been been from the British.


After seeing the author's name, I should have said most of the research I've read was done by Derek Mitchell.

Fascinating paper. I'm still trying to make sense of the graphs, especially the Thermal Energy Efficiency graphs in figure 1.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Fascinating paper. I'm still trying to make sense of the graphs, especially the Thermal Energy Efficiency graphs in figure 1.


My dumb country boy understanding of it was that the less energy a hive has to use on curing and subsequently successfully maintaining their honey stores, the farther the colony was willing to fly for forage and the lower sugar intensity nectar they would be willing to gather due to a logical (and fascinating) inherent knowledge of the break-even point of a particular forage source based on a complex interaction of both internal (their cavity) and external (forage quality and distance) parameters- collecting only those sources that result in a net accumulation of stores. 

The key take-away was that a more highly insulated colony envelope would result in a net increase in surplus honey gathering as a result of extending both the distance and variety of sources that the foragers would be willing to gather.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> The key take-away was that a more highly insulated colony envelope would result in a net increase in surplus honey gathering as a result of extending both the distance and variety of sources that the foragers would be willing to gather.


Excellent summary.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Hive Report 2/4/19

The temperature today at 5pm was 61F. All the bees were bringing in POUS. - Pollen of Unusually Small Size. It was light tan in color. I’ve seen bees in the chicken feeder, so maybe it was from there.

On Saturday Feb 2nd, I checked on the runt hive, 1801. I’ve been watching it carefully. Some days I could only see two very short seams of bees. With warmer weather, I took a look through the inner cover. A couple dozen bees were buzzing about frenetically, while other hives were huddled in clusters. I thought it was being robbed. I plugged up the entrance to one bee-width. 

The following day, I went in for a proper inspection. The queen was present, and there were a lot more bees than I thought. No sign of ripped comb or robbing. Fooled me again. Maybe they are Russians. 

The largest poly hive, 1803 consistently maintains interior temps 20F – 30F above outside temp. On Jan 22nd, outside temp was 10F, inside temp was 38F 2” from the edge of the cluster.

The other hives look good. 

Hive, Cluster Loc, Diam., Config., Notes
1702, Top SE, ~5”, 1 10F box,
1801, Top SE, 3”, 1 10F box,
1803, Top SE, 6”, 2 10F boxes,
1806, Top CEN, ~5”, 1 8F box on top of 18” jumbo F
1811, Top CEN, 6”, 2 10F boxes, hauling small chunks of sugar out front entrance


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> Hive Report 2/4/19


CLong:

Good update- 5 out of 6 so far, right?

So you can still afford to have #1801 drop-out and be at your target overwintering percentage?

Best of success to you in this upcoming year.

Russ


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Russ,

Yes, 5 out of 6. I think 1801 is just toying with me. I am a little bit surprised to still have five alive.

Now the new problem is to prepare for 5 hives potentially building up and swarming. Right now, I only have 14 empty 10-frame mediums to work with. I better get busy.

Thanks for the good wishes. Same to you.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Now the new problem is to prepare for 5 hives potentially building up and swarming. Right now, I only have 14 empty 10-frame mediums to work with. I better get busy.


Now that's a good problem to have . Congratulations.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Here are a couple pictures of the insulated boxes I’ll be using this year. They still need to be painted.
















I am moving to permanently insulated boxes for 3 reasons:
1.	*Better winter survival.* I’ve seen the difference myself, along with some anecdotal evidence.
2.	*Better health for the bees.* I haven’t seen any formal proof of this, but I have my suspicions.
3.	*Better honey production.* There is anecdotal evidence of this, and research backs it up. See Derek Mitchell’s latest paper:
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2018.0879?mc_cid=5782b69aa0&mc_eid=8425a04372

I am currently using some polystyrene boxes, but I am in favor of boxes like those above for the following reasons:
1.	Wood interior (scored) allows for bees to create propolis “envelope”.
2.	Stronger hive bodies. My worry has been poly boxes with several full honey supers above might crush.
3.	Ability to retro-fit existing equipment.
4.	Insulation can be easily removed or replaced.

The materials are ¾” hive body, 1” rigid foam insulation, ¾” 1x6 cut into 1 ¾” strips. The only thing holding the cleat on is 2 screws. I question whether the two screws will be enough to hold a full super of honey. Any pointers on how to improve the design would be appreciated

This design was borrowed from Bob Stewart as seen in the following link:

http://www.stewartfarm.org/docs/Stewart%20Farm%20Year%20Round%20Insulation%20System%20for%20Bee%20Hives.pdf


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Any pointers on how to improve the design would be appreciated


Clong:

I am watching your results with great interest. I have previously considered utilizing the Apimaye hive (https://apimaye-usa.com/), but beyond the cost implications, my other rationale for not pursuing this option was the lack of ability to be integrated with traditional woodenware. Your approach seems to provide a means to successfully incorporate this concept into existing equipment. 

Best of success to you with this project- please do keep us all posted.

Russ


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

"Any pointers on how to improve the design would be appreciated"


Clong, I would offer this suggestion. Wrap a 3/4" x 3/4" strip around the top and bottom of each box and fill the recess with a piece of 3/4" foam. Cover everything with 1/4" plywood, attaching the plywood to the strips. Handles screwed onto the plywood should be strong enough to lift a super full of honey. This way you can still paint the outside of the hive and not get moisture trapped between the foam and the hive body. Just a thought.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



JWPalmer said:


> Just a thought.


Great idea, JW. Sounds like a very robust option.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

JWPalmer,

That is a good idea. I actually envisioned building a hive something like that. It sounded like too much work.  (Your proposal is a lot simpler) It would, however, get a lot closer to Rev. Langstroth's actual design. He is often faulted for "his" hive's thin walls, but the ideal hive he proposed was well-insulated.

One of the things that I've puzzled over is whether the foam inevitably shifting, and protruding past the wood would cause stacking problems.

The second is moisture getting behind the foam. Folks who winter by wrapping with rigid foam don't report problems, and Mr. Stewart didn't report problems so far as I know.
A Virginia summer is an entirely different matter. I am going to let these boxes go, and later this fall, I will remove the handles and foam from a box, and see how bad it looks.

I PMed a response to you today.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Hive Report 2/15/19
62F and cloudy.

Checkerboarded 4 out of 5 hives with two mediums containing alternating honey/empty comb.
The dink hive got one medium of honey/empty frames. Hopefully, the extra space is not too much for them.

The hive with the jumbo brood chamber is still hanging in there. The jumbo looks like an abandoned warehouse.
The 8 frame medium box sitting on top still looks good, with closed brood present.
I plan to move the 8 frame medium onto a bottom board and add a couple checkerboarded boxes during the next warm-up.


----------



## squarepeg

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

great report clong. congrats on the overwintering success.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

squarepeg,

Thanks.

About one year ago, I checkerboarded with 8 frame mediums and struggled.
Hopefully this year goes better with 10-frames mediums.

I won't declare complete success until April 1st.


----------



## lharder

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

I put a foam sleeve over my colonies in the winter. I can slide it on and off so I can check my colonies for food. 2 inches of foam on the top, 1 inch on the sides, taped together with tuck tape. Its not so air tight that some moisture can work its way out between the foam and the wood. The goal is to create a dome of warmth and protection and moderating humidity. On my last go round I notices a bit of moisture on top of the inner cover under the foam. But no condensation inside.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

lharder,

Good to hear that it is working out for you. You have a lot tougher conditions to deal with. What are the low temps where you live? 

The double-thickness on the top versus that on the sides is a good move. I learned the hard way that having the sides more insulated than the top can be a problem. Thankfully, the bees shrugged it off.


----------



## lharder

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

It isn't so bad here. Zone 5/6 where my hives are overwintering. I think the worst was around -22 C, maybe -25 at night. Things were mild this winter except these last 2 weeks. Now sitting a few degrees below normal. Good chance really nasty temps are behind us. The folks on the prairies or up in the hills have it much worse than me.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*









The hive with a Broodminder, 1803 (Piper) looks like it shifted gears about Feb 3rd. Prior to that date, the sensor was reading about 15F-20F higher than outside temps. Since then the differential has been climbing, varying from 25F-50F.

Two checkerboarded boxes were added Feb 15th. With the added volume, the bees are still managing to keep the top of the stack close to 75F. It looks like the colony is getting ready for spring!

Incidentally, a good video on brood-rearing, "Bees in Winter" was given by Ben Harden at the 2015 National Honey Show. Very enlightening. It appears the bees often go broodless in Nov/early Dec, though some colonies, will even go broodless in January before ramping up for spring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pok9lAs-QR0


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> Incidentally, a good video on brood-rearing, "Bees in Winter" was given by Ben Harden at the 2015 National Honey Show. Very enlightening. It appears the bees often go broodless in Nov/early Dec, though some colonies, will even go broodless in January before ramping up for spring.


Clong:

Great video- thank you for sharing. The whole concept of water balance is fascinating and makes me wonder if there is an ideal 'shell' r-factor and/or convective ventilation rate that best exploits this dynamic?

The temperature increase bit you are recording reminds me of Tim Ives predictive evaluations with a thermal camera.

Do you think the Broodminder has been worth the investment?

I am most interested in following what you learn from your evaluations of insulated envelopes and no top ventilation.

Thanks for the update.

Russ


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> Clong:
> 
> Do you think the Broodminder has been worth the investment?
> 
> I am most interested in following what you learn from your evaluations of insulated envelopes and no top ventilation.
> 
> Russ


Russ,

The Broodminder has been worth it. The price was a bit steep, but its ease of use, and help in understanding the temperature and humidity inside the hive has been invaluable. It has been interesting to me how constant they can hold humidity in the broodnest, during the spring and summer with the ambient RH varying from 50%-90+%.

I have the hive scale model too. It is a blast to watch during the flow. You can watch the weight climb during the day, and drop at night as the bees dehumidify the nectar. The graph looks like tilted stair steps.

They have had occasional hardware and software glitches, but they always make things right. My latest sensors (they replaced earlier models due to battery drain) have been going for over a year without any hardware problems.

I can definitely recommend them.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> The Broodminder has been worth it.
> 
> I can definitely recommend them.


Thank you, Clong. I sincerely appreciate the feedback.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Went out to the beeyard last Sunday, 2/24/19, to reconfigure the jumbo hive body with a medium on top. The plan was to remove the jumbo box, move the medium onto the bottom board, and to add a box or two to the top, using Matt Davey's OSBN method to forestall swarming. Instead I found decapitated bees on the top bars, along with hundreds more on the bottom board.























The entrance reducer on this hive was cut to 1/2". No mouse guards were installed at the entrance. One photo shows the squared-off entrance that was facing outwards at the time. The other shows the edge of the reducer that was facing into the hive. The upper edge of the reducer was chewed. Perhaps the mouse was too fat to easily wriggle out. All the other entrance reducers are cut to 3/8". I am contemplating cutting my own at 5/16".

Will cutting the reducers smaller help, or should I just assume a determined mouse will chew/wriggle through any wood reducer, and plan on installing mouse guards?

That puts the count at 4/6 survival this winter.


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

What prevents you from using 1/2" wire cloth on all of your entrances?
Just do it.
Staple it everywhere and be done and have the wire in place 24/7/365.
Usage is very flexible and you can improvise no matter what you have on hand.

Yes - a silly loss.
Cannot really afford such losses.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



GregV said:


> What prevents you from using 1/2" wire cloth on all of your entrances?
> Just do it.
> Staple it everywhere and be done and have the wire in place 24/7/365.
> Usage is very flexible and you can improvise no matter what you have on hand.
> 
> Yes - a silly loss.
> Cannot really afford such losses.


Gregv,

I had never experienced such a loss, so I guess I thought it couldn't happen to me.

Sometimes I need to be slapped around a bit. :-|

24/7/365 mouse guards. Thanks for the good advice.

Hopefully, someone else will learn from my bonehead mistakes.


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Gregv,
> 
> *I had never experienced such a loss, so I guess I thought i couldn't happen to me.*
> 
> Sometimes I need to be slapped around a bit. :-|
> 
> 24/7/365 mouse guards. Thanks for the good advice.
> 
> Hopefully, someone else will learn from bonehead mistakes.


The loss will absolutely happen to you. It is only a matter of the loss degree (hopefully, less than 100% loss).
I think I am at a good place - having only 2/11 survival in 2018 (less then 20% survival).
This makes you numb and teaches to not be crying over every single loss (and prevent the silly ones) - look at the big picture, instead.
So you still have it good, clong. 

But do run 24/7/365 mouse guards. That's what I do.
Seriously, we have much bigger fish to fry to still worry of the stupid mice, of all things.
And of course, I still manage to kill few bees.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



GregV said:


> What prevents you from using 1/2" wire cloth on all of your entrances?


Gregv,

1/2" grid is small enough, or should I use 1/4"?


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Gregv,
> 
> 1/2" grid is small enough, or should I use 1/4"?


1/4 will be knocking off pollen/getting in the ways of drones/queens - no good.
3/8 is probably ideal to prevent most any mammals, no matter how small.
1/2 works plenty well as for me.

I have rolls and rolls of 1/2" mesh I have gotten for free from dumpster - I use it for everything (fruit trees too).
Not a single issue so far with me keeping hives all over the country places.
People around me keep complaining of mice non-stop. 
Donno what is so hard in just keeping the grid in-place permanently.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



GregV said:


> But do run 24/7/365 mouse guards. That's what I do.


Clong and GregV:

I enjoyed reading this back-and-forth. Sorry to hear about the misfortune, however.

Greg- to clarify, do you leave entrance reducers in conjunction with 1/2" mesh in-place year-round or just the mesh?

Or maybe you don't use entrance reducers and simply cover the opening with mesh?


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> Clong and GregV:
> 
> I enjoyed reading this back-and-forth. Sorry to hear about the misfortune, however.
> 
> Greg- to clarify, do you leave entrance reducers in conjunction with 1/2" mesh in-place year-round or just the mesh?
> 
> Or maybe you don't use entrance reducers and simply cover the opening with mesh?


I don't use the reducers.
I now days use N 1/2" holes which I plug/unplug as needed.
The wire screens are permanently stapled into the hive walls.
I also used to use slits - the wire was permanently stapled to them.
I also use 1 inch round holes - always screened too.

Though for the the case Clong pictured - I immediately see how I would screen it.
I would created a sort-of cage out of the screen and staple it to the reducer (so the screen becomes an integral part of the reducer). The cage will sort of *outline *the wood volume taken out of the void and will work as a screen.

OR, more radically and practically, I would permanently staple a strip of 1/2 across the entire Lang bottom and call it done.
So that the screen is always there where or not you use reducers.

In any case, there are lots of ways to improvise with wire screening and just to ensure it is always and permanently in place so this "topic of mice and man" just goes away.


----------



## NJBeeVet

The one issue I could imagine with keeping hardware cloth on all year round is I wonder if it would decreasedproductivity as it's an obstacle that the bees would always have to pass around on their way into and out of the hive. I keep my half inch mesh in for the winter and I notice bees traffic jamming on a nice day. Also the occasional dead bee and bits of wax paper from feeding get stuck on the mesh entrance on their way out. Not a big deal in winter but I wonder if the added obstacle slows them down during the rest of the year


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



NJBeeVet said:


> The one issue I could imagine with keeping hardware cloth on all year round is I wonder if it would decreasedproductivity as it's an obstacle


1/2" is not a significant issue; not worried a bit. 
Of course, you want the best alignments possible not to create more bee obstacles you need.
For example, my 1/2" round entrances go entirely through the 1/2x1/2 cell of of the mesh.

And of course, for the major flow you want to have additional entrances open OR the main one widen some.
If anything, I would worry of other things to improve productivity (not the 1/2" mesh).

That is when you get into 1/4" - that will be some serious jamming and productivity issue (lost pollen is an obvious issue).

3/8" - unsure; but I do not have/use it.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I don't use the reducers.
> I now days use N 1/2" holes which I plug/unplug as needed.


GregV:

Thank you for the response and the reminder- I recall now how you have multiple openings on various sides to allow you to evaluate warm-way / cold-way etc. Thank you for clarifying.


----------



## lharder

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Yup, mouse guards on everything. I almost mourn the loss of good comb more than the bees. I take them off once spring hits.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



lharder said:


> Yup, mouse guards on everything. I almost mourn the loss of good comb more than the bees. I take them off once spring hits.


lharder,

The only bright spot is, there was some REALLY nice straight brood comb in this hive. The mouse did most of the gnawing on the wonky honey frames, and hardly touched the brood comb.


----------



## MattDavey

Hi Clong,

Just wondering if you ended up Opening the Sides of the Broodnest on any of the hives?


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Hive Report for 3/10/19 15:00

Now at 3/6 hives alive. The dink hive finally succumbed due in part, to my mismanagement. The rest look fine. With the temperatures rising, I am praying for a good honey harvest. Of course, there is still a long way to go. To make it easier for myself, I am going to include the names of the hives along with the hive number. Also, I am going to try to estimate the number of frames of bees. There is not much clustering any more.

1811 Paradise
Box1: 2 frames of brood
Box2: 0 frames
Reduced hive from 3 boxes to 2. Placed 5 wonky honey frames above a wooden inner cover in box3. The plan is to allow the bees to empty ugly honey frames, so they can be rotated out.
4 full frames of bees.

1702 Elijah
Box1: 4 frames of scattered brood
Box2: 0 frames of brood.
6 frames of bees.

1803 Piper
Box1: 2 frames of brood
Box2: 4 frames of brood? Didn’t remove frames; bees were defensive. Based on the overall population, and the density of bees, I would guess 4 frames of brood.
10 frames of bees.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



MattDavey said:


> Hi Clong,
> 
> Just wondering if you ended up Opening the Sides of the Broodnest on any of the hives?


Matt,

Not really. When I went to work on my trainee's hives, it was pretty cold. We never got into the brood nest.

I plan to try it on one of my hives when it warms up a bit more, and the populations have grown. I haven't seen any drones yet. Probably in the next 10-14 days.

I will take pictures and post them here when I do.


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Chris, I have lots of drones over here in Aylett. I put one open foundationless frame next to the broodnest in one of my stong hives and in a week it it was 3/4 drawn, but with all drone comb. Wax is wax and this comb will adorn my starter strips later this year. I would not wait with Piper or Elijah.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



JWPalmer said:


> Chris, I have lots of drones over here in Aylett. I put one open foundationless frame next to the broodnest in one of my stong hives and in a week it it was 3/4 drawn, but with all drone comb. Wax is wax and this comb will adorn my starter strips later this year. I would not wait with Piper or Elijah.


JWPalmer,

I'll take that advice. I would love to see them drawing comb this early. I'll let you know how it goes.

Are you feeding the bees that are drawing the wax?


----------



## MattDavey

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Hi Chris,

How many weeks until your Swarm Season usually starts?

If it is within 3 weeks, and assuming the hives are Mediums I would say within the next week you could Open the Sides of the Broodnest by:

Adding 2 Partial Foundation Frames to 1803 Piper.

Adding 1 Partial Foundation Frame to 1702 Elijah.

I would recommend you cut the foundation to the Wedge shape to reduce the amount of Drone comb on those frames.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



MattDavey said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> How many weeks until your Swarm Season usually starts?
> 
> If it is within 3 weeks, and assuming the hives are Mediums I would say within the next week you could Open the Sides of the Broodnest by:
> 
> Adding 2 Partial Foundation Frames to 1803 Piper.
> 
> Adding 1 Partial Foundation Frame to 1702 Elijah.
> 
> I would recommend you cut the foundation to the Wedge shape to reduce the amount of Drone comb on those frames.


Matt,

Thanks so much for the guidance. I will take it. I can't say exactly when swarm season starts. I have acquired all of my swarms after May 1st. I would say the flow proper starts at the beginning of April. Perhaps JWPalmer can chime in on when swarm season begins.

I want to make honey for sure, but I also want to propagate good genetics, especially Piper's. She is a proven survivor queen. I plan to put in at least one "wedge" frame that I have cut already. 

A question: Any problem in putting a couple of empty frames in just to let them make all drones? I suppose I may lose some production, but that is ok. I'm thinking I'll just move the drone frames up into the outside of a honey super once they are hatching out.

A second question is when adding just a partial foundation frame, is it best to add it to the sunny side of the box? Would that be on the north side where you are?


----------



## MattDavey

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

If you have more than a few weeks, you could let them build up a bit more yet.

There is no problem with using foundationless or a starter strip, other than you will get mostly Drone comb.
I think 2 or more frames of Drones is excessive.

1. I position my hives in a North-South orientation. So the entrance is facing the Midday sun.

2. Haven't noticed any difference with combs being drawn on any side.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



MattDavey said:


> If you have more than a few weeks, you could let them build up a bit more yet.


Hmm,

We have a few nights dropping down into the low 30s Sunday-Tues of next week. I'll have to think on this...

Thanks again for the guidance.


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Our prime swarm season is April15 thru May 15, but can easily be as early as April 1st and last thru June. I think we will get early swarming here and have already set a few traps. The bees are brooding on the sunny end of my combs with the remaining stores on the shady side. Once they get enough drone comb drawn, I think they will revert to building worker comb. To encourage them, I do have 1:1 on the hives.


----------



## MattDavey

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Ok, so lets go with April 15th as the start of your Swarm Season. You can still wait 1 week to allow further buildup, the more bees at this stage the better.
(Swarms before that date may be due to feeding )

I would wait another week, especially if you were going to add a New Box, because you are still going to have a few Freezing nights over this coming weekend and the hives are still not that strong that Swarming is going to be an issue yet.

Were you planning to add a New Box or just remove a Frame or two?


It's interesting that you are getting Brood on Frames on the Sunny Side of the Hive. I'm assuming the Frames are orientated East-West.
With mine orientated North-South I find that the Brood is to one side (front) of the Frame, so there is Honey (Feed) on the other side (back) of each Brood Frames. The Brood is closest to the Entrance, which is also the Sunny Side. (Yes, North for us here.) So I can tell what is the Front facing side or Back facing side of a Frame.

Taking that into consideration changes things. That would mean you always see Brood on the 1st Frame, on the Sunny Side. :scratch:
So you could always slide the Brood frames over and insert the New Frame on the outer edge (Sunny Side).


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



MattDavey said:


> Ok, so lets go with April 15th as the start of your Swarm Season. You can still wait 1 week to allow further buildup, the more bees at this stage the better.
> (Swarms before that date may be due to feeding )
> 
> I would wait another week, especially if you were going to add a New Box, because you are still going to have a few Freezing nights over this coming weekend and the hives are still not that strong that Swarming is going to be an issue yet.


Waiting one week sounds like a good plan. Now the long-range forecast calls for lows in the lower 20s (F) next week. (I'm not sure I believe it)



> Were you planning to add a New Box or just remove a Frame or two?


With the stronger hive, I might add a box. The weaker hives, a frame only.



> It's interesting that you are getting Brood on Frames on the Sunny Side of the Hive. I'm assuming the Frames are orientated East-West.
> With mine orientated North-South I find that the Brood is to one side (front) of the Frame, so there is Honey (Feed) on the other side (back) of each Brood Frames. The Brood is closest to the Entrance, which is also the Sunny Side. (Yes, North for us here.) So I can tell what is the Front facing side or Back facing side of a Frame.


My apiary doesn't get a lot of sun. It is in a forest-y location. With the trees being leafless right now, they get direct sun for about 2 hours in late morning, and dappled sun the rest of the day.

The hive entrances face southeast. Your counsel has me considering turning the hives a bit more.

Thanks again for the help.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

I am wondering if the early flow has begun. Maples are blooming. I haven't seen any redbud, except in urban areas. I think Walt Wright spoke of an early flow, a lull, and then a later flow. Would this be the early flow?

Yesterday I helped a trainee go through his hives to try OSBN. In one hive, We moved three frames from boxes 1 & 2, to put above the broodnext in box 3. They had enough population and closed brood that I had him put two honey supers on. I hope that was the right move. Due to time constraints, I couldn't take any pictures.

His stronger hive has a solid 15 frames of bees, perhaps more. I saw some minor comb-building since our last inspection, though I'm not sure I saw any pure white wax.
We did see nectar in two frames of comb installed in box 3, above the two existing 10 frame boxes. In retrospect, I wonder if I should have moved a couple of frames of brood up into box 3.

At my home apiary, the Piper hive (1803) gained 4.5 pounds. It was a very distinct increase in weight. The first this spring. I didn't open it, but I assume that was due to incoming nectar. I'm guessing it is maple, but I'm sure there are other sources I'm not aware of.

It looks like the fun has begun.


----------



## MattDavey

Wow, I had heard Maple can have a heavy flow. Sounds like you should get into that hive on the weekend.

Should be right to do OSBN on it if they have put on that much weight so quickly.

If you are unsure whether or not to put new box(es) on with the freezing nights coming, just make sure there is no capped honey on the frames beside the Broodnest. Or put empty drawn comb on each side the Broodnest if you have it.


----------



## lharder

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

I do some opening of the brood nest. But I wait until they are pretty strong. Pretty much filling up a medium box. I know I am too aggressive when I see chalkbrood where there wasn't any before. Earlier in the spring I only give them one empty frame to work on. When I see lots of new wax and I have lots of bees, then will give them more.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> I am wondering if the early flow has begun. Maples are blooming. I haven't seen any redbud, except in urban areas.


CLong:

Good update- sounds like your trainee has quite a colony on his hands.

Here in Western Kentucky, we are in the same shape you are- both Red and Silver Maples are in full bloom and most Redbuds are still swelling. Forsythia just started blooming in earnest yesterday, which puts us two weeks behind last year.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Here are a couple pictures of the insulated boxes I’ll be using this year. They still need to be painted.
> 
> View attachment 45995
> 
> View attachment 45997
> 
> 
> I am moving to permanently insulated boxes for 3 reasons:
> 1.	*Better winter survival.* I’ve seen the difference myself, along with some anecdotal evidence.
> 2.	*Better health for the bees.* I haven’t seen any formal proof of this, but I have my suspicions.
> 3.	*Better honey production.* There is anecdotal evidence of this, and research backs it up. See Derek Mitchell’s latest paper:
> https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2018.0879?mc_cid=5782b69aa0&mc_eid=8425a04372
> 
> I am currently using some polystyrene boxes, but I am in favor of boxes like those above for the following reasons:
> 1.	Wood interior (scored) allows for bees to create propolis “envelope”.
> 2.	Stronger hive bodies. My worry has been poly boxes with several full honey supers above might crush.
> 3.	Ability to retro-fit existing equipment.
> 4.	Insulation can be easily removed or replaced.
> 
> The materials are ¾” hive body, 1” rigid foam insulation, ¾” 1x6 cut into 1 ¾” strips. The only thing holding the cleat on is 2 screws. I question whether the two screws will be enough to hold a full super of honey. Any pointers on how to improve the design would be appreciated
> 
> This design was borrowed from Bob Stewart as seen in the following link:
> 
> http://www.stewartfarm.org/docs/Stewart%20Farm%20Year%20Round%20Insulation%20System%20for%20Bee%20Hives.pdf


only pointer I can see would be to drill a counter sunk hole on the wood cleat you use to carry the full supper or full brood box. Add a 4 inch screw into the end of the Hive body, (I.E. all wood spot only 3/4 inch target on each end) for the cleat you carry with or both 8 screws instead of 4. A 16 penny nail is rated for 400 LBs of shear strength. So IMO 2 4 inch deck screws would hold the supper if full. Fairly east retro fit with out changing the design. I would carefully drill 3 inches with a small diameter bit to prevent missing center of the hive body. then counter sink to prevent splitting your cleat as you would be about 1 3/8 from the end of the cleat. Could also add a couple skinny 2.5 inch wood screws cleat to cleat at the end like 1/2 inch from the end of the long cleat. Cleat or handle not sure what you call it. Looks good for the design A little more strength from a few screws and I do not thik it would break.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Gray Goose said:


> only pointer I can see would be to drill a counter sunk hole on the wood cleat you use to carry the full supper or full brood box. Add a 4 inch screw into the end of the Hive body, (I.E. all wood spot only 3/4 inch target on each end) for the cleat you carry with or both 8 screws instead of 4. A 16 penny nail is rated for 400 LBs of shear strength. So IMO 2 4 inch deck screws would hold the supper if full. Fairly east retro fit with out changing the design. I would carefully drill 3 inches with a small diameter bit to prevent missing center of the hive body. then counter sink to prevent splitting your cleat as you would be about 1 3/8 from the end of the cleat. Could also add a couple skinny 2.5 inch wood screws cleat to cleat at the end like 1/2 inch from the end of the long cleat. Cleat or handle not sure what you call it. Looks good for the design A little more strength from a few screws and I do not thik it would break.


Gray Goose,

I hadn't thought of drilling through the cleat into the end wall of the box. Even with the extra step of predrilling and countersinking, It would be well worth the trouble. Screwing the cleat ends together would help even a little bit more.

Great tips! Thanks. This would be a marked improvement on the current design.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

clong No Worries, that is what we are trying for is to offer help to each other. Myself I am a wood worker turned beekeeper, so the building part I really enjoy. I have been pondering a very similar design to yours except the following. Add a 1x1 to the top and bottom edge of the 1 inch poly , then put 1/2 or 3/8 exterior plywood on the outside of the poly (to protect it). So the outside is wood the inside is wood and firm poly styreen in the middle. I figured the edge of the poly would get smashed and provide ants a place to get started so I was going to shrink the poly 2 inches and add a 1x1 to the edge. then the stacking edges would be all wood, for prying apart. I am very interested in how your design works, It is a bit simpler and maybe would take less time to build.
I have seen some reports on temperature deviations causing clusters to expand and contract, having a negative effect on wintering, so to stabilize the interior temp swings, insulation would be effective.
Please let us know how it works.

GG


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Gray Goose said:


> clong No Worries, that is what we are trying for is to offer help to each other. Myself I am a wood worker turned beekeeper, so the building part I really enjoy. I have been pondering a very similar design to yours except the following. Add a 1x1 to the top and bottom edge of the 1 inch poly , then put 1/2 or 3/8 exterior plywood on the outside of the poly (to protect it). So the outside is wood the inside is wood and firm poly styreen in the middle. I figured the edge of the poly would get smashed and provide ants a place to get started so I was going to shrink the poly 2 inches and add a 1x1 to the edge. then the stacking edges would be all wood, for prying apart. I am very interested in how your design works, It is a bit simpler and maybe would take less time to build.
> I have seen some reports on temperature deviations causing clusters to expand and contract, having a negative effect on wintering, so to stabilize the interior temp swings, insulation would be effective.
> Please let us know how it works.
> 
> GG


GG,

Ants, moisture, and wear and tear are the big unknowns. If they go through 3 seasons in reasonably good shape, I'll be happy.
I'll give an update once the summer is over.


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Here are a couple pictures of the insulated boxes I’ll be using this year. They still need to be painted.
> 
> View attachment 45995
> 
> View attachment 45997


Looking at these pics.
One thing is holding me back - this hard foam is still only foam and will get damaged too easily.
Do you think taping the corners and edges (as the most vulnerable parts) with strong aluminum foil film should help?
If it holds the edges/corners for reasonably long time (supported by some rigid and strong, thin material - e.g. tape), this would be a good design. 

This aluminum tape is rated for heat ducts:








In fact, once I looked at the hive picture here:
http://www.stewartfarm.org/docs/Stewart Farm Year Round Insulation System for Bee Hives.pdf
I can tell right away how the foam block have been damaged and worn at the corners/edges.
I'd hate going back and redoing the rig over and over.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



GregV said:


> Looking at these pics.
> In fact, once I looked at the hive picture here:
> http://www.stewartfarm.org/docs/Stewart Farm Year Round Insulation System for Bee Hives.pdf
> I can tell right away how the foam block have been damaged and worn at the corners/edges.
> I'd hate going back and redoing the rig over and over.


Gregv,

I think that was Mr. Stewart's first attempt. He later altered his design to cut the four edges off each sheet at a roughly 45 degree angle. The corner edges of each box, and the edges where the boxes meet, essentially had no insulation.

The way I have the foam attached to the boxes, with a screw passing through the cleat and the through the foam, allows the foam to move. I am afraid the foam will get looser and looser, and will get chewed up on the edges with use. Time will tell. I may eventually try tape, or just using Gray Goose's proposed design. It is a better design, it just sounds like more work.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



GregV said:


> Looking at these pics.
> One thing is holding me back - this hard foam is still only foam and will get damaged too easily.
> Do you think taping the corners and edges (as the most vulnerable parts) with strong aluminum foil film should help?
> If it holds the edges/corners for reasonably long time (supported by some rigid and strong, thin material - e.g. tape), this would be a good design.
> 
> This aluminum tape is rated for heat ducts:
> View attachment 46703
> 
> 
> In fact, once I looked at the hive picture here:
> http://www.stewartfarm.org/docs/Stewart Farm Year Round Insulation System for Bee Hives.pdf
> I can tell right away how the foam block have been damaged and worn at the corners/edges.
> I'd hate going back and redoing the rig over and over.


GregV I read the PDF from steward farms and noted that he felt the insulation would cause less food consumption for the bees as there would be less heat loss. Earlier you had mentioned your bees really needed to poop. I know when I eat lots more .....well I think you get it. For long winters where the bees hold waste somewhat proportional to the amount they consume...Less heat loss could help your ****uation out a bit. I have also read that the heat needed for the winter based on measured weight loss per day being honey consumed (hives on scales all winter) comes to 14-18 watts, and seems somewhat consistent from hive to hive even with different populations. this book stated that if you have larger Coloneys, the bees somewhat take turns eating and heating. I.E. if you compare a 10 pounds of bees to a 5 pounds of bees hive the 5 pounds of bees hive needs to consume 2 Times the honey to produce the same heat, per individual Bee, as the larger hive. Not a good concept for overwintering NUCs. But could suggest well insulated NUCs could have better survival rates. I'll look for the reference.
GG


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Gray Goose said:


> GregV ...well I think you get it. .......GG


Sure, I am a proponent of insulation, in fact.
My rigs are insulated much better then of most keepers around me.

In addition, I run frames with 12-13 inch long top bars only - for better energy efficiency (talking of the Warre-type narrow/deep setup).
I don't even do conventional Langs.


This one here has sandwiched walls with poly inside as well as sandwiched follower boards with poly inside.







It is setup basically like so:








So going forward, I am thinking of two components:
1)as light as possible exterior envelope for mobility (thin and light plank) that mostly acts as wind/precipitation barrier AND strong to resist mechanical damage
2)additional interior envelope during cold season only (warm follower boards and touching end bars of the frames to create a double-wall)

Winter hardiness and mite hardiness are huge parts though (unsure what % of the wintering success).
To give the context of how important the bee winter/mite hardiness is:
* last year my only two survivors were in plywood temp boxes (sandwiched between warm follower boards) - winter was mild with many breaks
* this year 3 out of 5 survivors are again in plywood/thin board boxes (sandwiched between warm follower boards) - winter was hard and no breaks


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Cool to see the inside of the "blue box" I wondered what the insides looked like. Seems lots of ventilation, I presume you close some for the winter.

This year I wrapped 1 inch foam board around some Langs, using cardboard corners recycled from shipping stuff on Pallets. It looked toasty warm but 6 Sazcatraz packages were 100% done in by mites. the 7 Russians I had over wintered from last year, have 5 left so they fared better. I have 1 more yard with 4 mutts I still cannot get to to check. 
I also build a long double deep Lang that seems really nice , you work the side similar to the one you have. They had 2 of the Mited out Sazcatraz. They have 4 inch insulated side walls, and had 3 inches of insulation on top. they look comfy as a coffin. I am also working on a circuit idea to kick on at 10 degree F and off at 15F. I want to use the 2 watt old style christmass tree light bulbs but am wondering if it is all worth the hassle. Placing them in a root cellar may be just as easy. I am north enough to have less other keepers around so I can control the DCA but too far north to have an easy winter. Back in the late 70s I (my Dad's) had bees in the same area and they almost all wintered, every year, so the cold is not the biggest challenge, it is the Mites and the TF trail seems fought with finding a lot of bee sources that do not work. My best 2 hives are swarms I caught, so since I have 120 frames of comb I see decoy hives in my future. I would like to be back close to 20 by fall. I keep coming back to the Package quality is not what it once was. I think local clans/clicks raising their own would be a better method but you need cranky old bee keepers to cooperate. One would need to find them all and gain agreement and be aware of and new keepers. you would need a partnership, and normally that ship will not sail.
GG rambling again.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Gray Goose said:


> My best 2 hives are swarms I caught, so since I have 120 frames of comb I see decoy hives in my future.
> 
> GG rambling again.


Gray Goose:

I appreciate this context, because now I realize that 'decoy' hive and 'bait' hive are synonymous.

I for one am glad for your extended commentary as it helps bring clarity to areas where I am still pretty fuzzy.

Enjoying reading about your efforts in the 'wild blue North'.

Russ


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Gray Goose said:


> Cool to see the inside of the "blue box" I wondered what the insides looked like. Seems lots of ventilation, I presume you close some for the winter.
> 
> . I think local clans/clicks raising their own would be a better method but you need cranky old bee keepers to cooperate. One would need to find them all and gain agreement and be aware of and new keepers. ........GG rambling again.


Ventilation - nope, not closing anything. 
The ventilation occurs *around *the inner envelope with the bees (not through it).

Local coop - in fact, myself and two other local TF guys will be trying just this.
We have a plan to setup a shared yard this summer to exchange the material and create an overlapping drone coverage.
And also to protect ourselves from total losses (IF I lose 100%, I will restart from the coop).


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



GregV said:


> Local coop - in fact, myself and two other local TF guys will be trying just this.
> We have a plan to setup a shared yard this summer to exchange the material and create an overlapping drone coverage.
> And also to protect ourselves from total losses (IF I lose 100%, I will restart from the coop).


I tend to agree with the coop concept. Also have more resources as a group,one may have frames of stores and another have excess Q cells.
I am talking to a close keeper I just found out about today, for same idea. how many , what kind do you import or treat etc. Close enough to maybe be a DCA, 3 ish miles away, so if my Queens fly that way , I get what he has. I have another farm so it would be possible to move my breeding bees if needed. Keep us updated on learnings from the coop.

GG


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Gray Goose said:


> I tend to agree with the coop concept. ........ Keep us updated on learnings from the coop. GG


Will see.

In any case, to be able to withstand the annual dump of the "almond bees" onto us - the only way is to unite and push back.
Cooperation is needed so to cross-breed the worthy bee and to keep the gene pull resisting the dilution.
It is impossible to fight back with 2-3 hives.
But it is possible to fight back with a strategically distributed and large enough population.

A friend invested into the Russians last year.
Of course, 2-3 years down the road those Russians will get diluted.
It only makes sense for his Russians to be cross-pollinating with my TF ferals.
And vice-versa for me as well.
If we create and maintain a strong desired population on few square miles, we then have chances to fight back the annual "almond dump".

What is almost important - to let the undesired colonies to die-off ruthlessly.
Due the open cross-pollination and the "almond drones" always present, we will always end up with a percentage of units that will be of sub-standard winter hardiness and mite hardiness. And so, I will just keep letting the substandard material to die off.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> My dumb country boy understanding of it was that the less energy a hive has to use on curing and subsequently successfully maintaining their honey stores, the farther the colony was willing to fly for forage and the lower sugar intensity nectar they would be willing to gather due to a logical (and fascinating) inherent knowledge of the break-even point of a particular forage source based on a complex interaction of both internal (their cavity) and external (forage quality and distance) parameters- collecting only those sources that result in a net accumulation of stores.
> 
> The key take-away was that a more highly insulated colony envelope would result in a net increase in surplus honey gathering as a result of extending both the distance and variety of sources that the foragers would be willing to gather.


Odd I have read the drilling a hole in all the supers "enhances" the honey production as more Air flows thru aiding the curing of the honey. they reduce the moisture from like 6 or so percent to 96 percent, (ball park) As I recall, so that theory was the more air flow the better to cure.

GG


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Keep in mind that there is a direct correlation between distance traveled and life expectacy of the forager. I've read that after about 500 miles it is "toes up" for the bee. So an increased foraging distance will ultimately result in fewer foragers and a decrease in overall production, even if nectar is abundant.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> lharder,
> 
> The only bright spot is, there was some REALLY nice straight brood comb in this hive. The mouse did most of the gnawing on the wonky honey frames, and hardly touched the brood comb.


Lesson learned, combs to use for increase. some bit of good news. I use the 1/2 inch mesh on every thing, Bait hives included. Else 1/2 my bait hives are mouse hotels. 
I put mine on when the wet suppers are pulled off and stored.they stay in the spring until I tire of them. With out mesh in winter I have at least 10% loss from mice.
GG


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Gray Goose said:


> Lesson learned, combs to use for increase. some bit of good news. I use the 1/2 inch mesh on every thing, Bait hives included. Else 1/2 my bait hives are mouse hotels.
> I put mine on when the wet suppers are pulled off and stored.they stay in the spring until I tire of them. With out mesh in winter I have at least 10% loss from mice.
> GG


GG,

Thanks for the encouragement. Extra comb is always welcome. One thing is for sure, it is a lesson I won't forget. Those were the last of my Mountaineer bees. :waiting:


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> Clong:
> 
> Great video- thank you for sharing. The whole concept of water balance is fascinating and makes me wonder if there is an ideal 'shell' r-factor and/or convective ventilation rate that best exploits this dynamic?
> 
> Thanks for the update.
> 
> Russ


Hi Litsinger, I have been trying to wrap my mind around the "moisture" problem and I am convinced the bees turn the excess moisture into "more bees"
I know that the brood are not fed honey they are fed royal jelly this is made from honey and glandular secretions. Well When I secrete water is needed, at some point. So the x Kilos of honey produces 200 ML of water thing would have water running out of the hive. true some is carried away in air exchange. But IMO the moisture is sucked up and used to feed brood and turned into bees. So excess moisture is bad , But I also think too dry will cause less brood, and smaller spring clusters. In a hollow tree, the moisture soaks into the corky interior wood and is sucked out when needed. So be careful for "too dry" as it may also have issues. In the presentation he mentions that bees went out to get water in winter a couple times. so they were too dry.
GG


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Gray Goose said:


> Odd I have read the drilling a hole in all the supers "enhances" the honey production as more Air flows thru aiding the curing of the honey. they reduce the moisture from like 6 or so percent to 96 percent, (ball park) As I recall, so that theory was the more air flow the better to cure.
> 
> GG





JWPalmer said:


> Keep in mind that there is a direct correlation between distance traveled and life expectacy of the forager. I've read that after about 500 miles it is "toes up" for the bee. So an increased foraging distance will ultimately result in fewer foragers and a decrease in overall production, even if nectar is abundant.


There is podcast on kiwimana Buzz that discusses efficiency gains with insulated hives. A commercial beekeeper in Australia said his honey production went up 30% when he moved from wooden Langs to Poly. Presumably, the longer distances traveled by bees living in a well-insulated hive are offset by the decreased wear and tear on bees trying to keep the hive warm, and later in drying honey. I can't explain exactly how the bees do it, but apparently, they do. Derek Mitchell's paper is the first I have read that explains and quantifies the increased efficiency of insulated hives.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Gray Goose said:


> Odd I have read the drilling a hole in all the supers "enhances" the honey production as more Air flows thru aiding the curing of the honey. they reduce the moisture from like 6 or so percent to 96 percent, (ball park) As I recall, so that theory was the more air flow the better to cure.
> 
> GG





JWPalmer said:


> Keep in mind that there is a direct correlation between distance traveled and life expectacy of the forager. I've read that after about 500 miles it is "toes up" for the bee. So an increased foraging distance will ultimately result in fewer foragers and a decrease in overall production, even if nectar is abundant.





Gray Goose said:


> Hi Litsinger, I have been trying to wrap my mind around the "moisture" problem and I am convinced the bees turn the excess moisture into "more bees"
> I know that the brood are not fed honey they are fed royal jelly this is made from honey and glandular secretions. Well When I secrete water is needed, at some point. So the x Kilos of honey produces 200 ML of water thing would have water running out of the hive. true some is carried away in air exchange. But IMO the moisture is sucked up and used to feed brood and turned into bees. So excess moisture is bad , But I also think too dry will cause less brood, and smaller spring clusters. In a hollow tree, the moisture soaks into the corky interior wood and is sucked out when needed. So be careful for "too dry" as it may also have issues. In the presentation he mentions that bees went out to get water in winter a couple times. so they were too dry.
> GG


Gray Goose and JW:

For what it is worth, I think your observations are great ones- my only real concrete take-away from the recent research into hive insulation and moisture accumulation is that the interaction is quite complex and likely dependent upon lots of factors including (but not limited to) climate, time of year, hive dynamics, etc. What I enjoy about this forum is the range of efforts you can read about that people are experimenting with and also finding some successful outcomes. 

For my part, I have started under the premise that I am going to err to the side of too much top ventilation and reduce down incrementally when it is apparent that this is not benefiting overwintering success in my area. In the interim, I am watching CLong's experiments with highly insulated assemblies given that we are in a similar climate.


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> ...... *honey production went up 30% *when he moved from wooden Langs to Poly. Presumably, the longer distances traveled by bees living in a well-insulated hive are offset by the decreased wear and tear on bees trying to keep the hive warm, and later in drying honey......


What about 30% fewer bees needed to condition the hive and, thusly, released to foraging?
I think this what 30% amounts to - extra force made available for foraging, most likely. 
There are documented cases of such cases - in favor of poly-hives.

Remember - the long-distance travel is less efficient and has its break-even point rendering it useless (no matter how many more bees fly longer distance).


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



GregV said:


> What about 30% fewer bees needed to condition the hive and, thusly, released to foraging?
> I think this what 30% amounts to - extra force made available for foraging, most likely.
> There are documented cases of such cases - in favor of poly-hives.
> 
> Remember - the long-distance travel is less efficient and has its break-even point rendering it useless (no matter how many more bees fly longer distance).


Gregv (and JW Palmer),

Great point. Thanks for providing clarity. Sometimes my thinking is rather muddled.

As for long-distance travel, I'll leave the cost-benefit calculations to the bees.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Hive Report 3/24/19

Elijah
Found 4 frames of brood in box #2. Bees have drawn out new white wax on frame that was only half drawn, added to the northeast side of the box. This was my first cautious OSBN attempt. All drone comb, of course.













Added an empty frame just outside the brood area, on the south side of the box. 
Bees are building slowly, but steadily. The queen is two years old.

Paradise
This hive has seemed really slow in building up. It only has two boxes. These bees were hived from a swarm with a red-marked queen. During inspection I stumbled across a good-looking unmarked queen. I marked her green and tried to add a tiny dab of yellow to make the mark unique. That didn't work, so she got another coat of green on top. I hope she doesn't tip over. There were four frames of closed brood, along with some eggs and larvae, all in the bottom box. I would guess this means she was mated in early March. I didn't realize a colony would supercede that early. Perhaps it was last fall and I missed it?

Piper
Last Saturday 3/17 it was 54F Two bees were fanning at the entrance. The bees were also making comb on the inner cover. I took that as a hint that the bees wanted more room. Found that box #1 seems to have become a dedicated pollen box. Before adding two more boxes, I looked at the checkerboarded frames in box #3. The bees had partially drained some of the honey frames, and the queen had laid up at least two of the frames. I added a second checkerboarded box (#4) and box #5 with empty frames. 

Saturday 3/24, checked box #4. The queen was on the first frame inspected. She was laying in box #4. So far, the checkerboarding seems to be working well. I am hoping I can forestall swarming and see a significant honey harvest from this hive.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Hive Report 3/24/19


CLong:

Good report- I am impressed that you've got new wax being drawn out already. I too wonder if Paradise superseded in the Fall- when did you last dig through them before buttoning them up? 

Sounds like Piper is prepared to go gangbusters this year...


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> CLong:
> 
> Good report- I am impressed that you've got new wax being drawn out already. I too wonder if Paradise superseded in the Fall- when did you last dig through them before buttoning them up?
> 
> Sounds like Piper is prepared to go gangbusters this year...


I'll have to dig through my records to see when I last laid eyes on the queen. My guess is September.

The white wax I'm convinced is due to the number of bees, and the R-value of the hive. (The daytime and nighttime temperatures in this hive have been 90+ degrees for the last 11 days running.) This is a proven survivor queen, so perhaps genetics plays a part as well.


----------



## tpope

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Nice report CLong. I just love it when my best bees want to draw out a bunch of drone comb and then lay it full.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> The white wax I'm convinced is due to the number of bees, and the R-value of the hive. This is a proven survivor queen, so perhaps genetics plays a part as well.


Hard to argue with this logic...


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



tpope said:


> Nice report CLong. I just love it when my best bees want to draw out a bunch of drone comb and then lay it full.


Tpope,

You're being serious, right?

I know we're not supposed to want too much drone comb, but I'm happy to let the bees have their 20%. More good genetics, and I still think there's more to the lowly drone than commonly taught. If they eat more than their share, well, I'm guilty too.


----------



## tpope

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Tpope,
> 
> You're being serious, right?
> 
> I know we're not supposed to want too much drone comb, but I'm happy to let the bees have their 20%. More good genetics, and I still think there's more to the lowly drone than commonly taught. If they eat more than their share, well, I'm guilty too.


Yes, I am serious. I want my genetics to dominate the local DCAs. I know of 5 beekeepers within 3 miles


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



tpope said:


> Yes, I am serious. I want my genetics to dominate the local DCAs. I know of 5 beekeepers within 3 miles


+1
This season I want my 3 survivor queens lay as much drone is possible. 
Then I want those drones flood the area as much as possible.
The more the merrier.

If you indeed care of any good traits to set into your population - you must push out the desired drones.
You are always working with your entire population, not just few hives in the backyard.
If you suppress your own "good" drones, well, some other drones will mate with your queens and you will have no seat at the table then.

To compare, I will be harvesting drone as a product from the other hives when I can (the colonies still under question and any new swarms for 2019; a side-affect - mite suppression).


----------



## MattDavey

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Elijah
> Found 4 frames of brood in box #2. Bees have drawn out new white wax on frame that was only half drawn, added to the northeast side of the box. This was my first cautious OSBN attempt. All drone comb, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Added an empty frame just outside the brood area, on the south side of the box.
> Bees are building slowly, but steadily. The queen is two years old.



Thanks for giving OSBN a go. It worked as expected.

The reason the bees have drawn out the comb is because you made a hole directly beside the Broodnest. Bees will desperately try to fill a hole made directly beside or inside the Broodnest.
Weaker hives will also build comb.

You mentioned about helping someone else and doing OSBN on their hive. Do you know how that went? 

Can you also post the photos on the OSBN thread as well?
Thanks!


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Matt,

I'll post the photos over there tomorrow.

We were supposed to inspect the trainees hives today, but it rained. This Thursday we'll try again. I'll post on the other thread.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Hive 1803, Piper 7:30PM, 56F. Half a dozen bees fanning at the entrance. More fanners just inside.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Hive 1803, Piper 7:30PM, 56F. Half a dozen bees fanning at the entrance. More fanners just inside.
> View attachment 47033


Now this is too cool... or should I say too warm?


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> Now this is too cool... or should I say too warm?


Russ,

Both.  I am tempted to flip the inner cover to vent, but not yet.
I'm just going to watch and wait...

The hive has gained 5lbs over the last 3 days. They are probably curing nectar.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

*Honeybee Prime Directive Part I:*

The apiary is growing!

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?321131-Virginia&p=1713895#post1713895

To God be the glory.


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> *Honeybee Prime Directive Part I:*
> 
> The apiary is growing!
> 
> https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?321131-Virginia&p=1713895#post1713895
> 
> To God be the glory.


Alright, CLong! Way to go! This means hopefully that swarms in Kentucky are not far behind. 

I like the nod to the Big Man- I've often considered adding 'Soli Deo gloria' to my signature a la J.S. Bach, but your way is better and much more straightforward. Here's to many more swarms in your traps this spring!


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> Alright, CLong! Way to go! This means hopefully that swarms in Kentucky are not far behind.
> 
> I like the nod to the Big Man- I've often considered adding 'Soli Deo gloria' to my signature a la J.S. Bach, but your way is better and much more straightforward. Here's to many more swarms in your traps this spring!


Russ,

Thanks for the good wishes.

I moved them into an 8-frame box yesterday. It looked like about 3 pounds.

The queen was stubby and unmarked. There were no eggs in the comb, so she's probably a virgin. That is the first time I've caught a virgin queen. I assume it was a secondary swarm. She had 3 good days to mate at the trap location. It will be interesting to see how quickly the hive takes off.

Chris


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> The queen was stubby and unmarked. There were no eggs in the comb, so she's probably a virgin. That is the first time I've caught a virgin queen. I assume it was a secondary swarm. She had 3 good days to mate at the trap location. It will be interesting to see how quickly the hive takes off.
> 
> Chris


CLong:

I will look forward to hearing how this colony progresses this year. Keep up the good work.

Russ


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

*Apiary Update 4/17/17*

2 new hives have been added this spring.

1.	1901 Westley was a nice-looking swarm that had evaporated to about ¼ its original size by the time my trainee and I got there. It was queenless. When I stored them at my house, they went through one very cold night in the trap. When I took a peek, they looked terrible. My wife invited them into our sunroom, where it took 24 hours for them to come back to life. I think she may have slipped in a large chocolate-covered pill. I added some eggs from Piper, and shook in additional bees, and installed them into a four frame nuc. The queen cells have been broken down now. No sign of a queen at the last inspection.

2.	1902 Bon Air started as a swarm-trapped hive with a stubby virgin queen. She has a nice figure now. I installed them into an 8-frame box, topped with a standard inner cover, and a second box with a couple of honey frames. The next day I pulled the tele cover off to take a look. The whole colony had moved up onto the honey frames and were making comb off the glass. Bad bees!. They are now back in the bottom box with one honey frame added.

Paradise is piddling along. I moved 3 frames of brood up into box #3, to nudge them along. I didn’t have time to check the brood pattern. The mystery queen doesn’t seem to be a very good one.

Elijah is doing better, but not great. It is still headed by a 2-year old queen. I likely won’t let any 2nd –year queens go through winter anymore unless I have 10+ hives to work with.

Piper has some queen cells with larvae in them. I found two, but didn’t do a comprehensive search. Both were in box #4. One was in the middle of a frame, the second one on the bottom of another. I had done a brief inspection on 4/13 and found a ½ drawn frame of white-wax drone comb with some eggs. Along the bottom, there were 5-6 empty queen cups. I couldn’t find it on this inspection, but I wasn’t able to be thorough. The place where a recalled seeing it had a full frame of white wax with eggs and larvae. During this inspection, we found the queen and she seemed slimmer to both my daughter and me. This hive was Walt Wright-Checkerboarded, and OSBNed. The queen cells may be supercedure, but I am planning for the worst – that it will swarm soon. I have a trap up. I hope the Lord sends a swarm in that direction.

I am satisfied with the number of hives surviving this winter, but I still have a lot to learn on making honey.


----------



## nickhefferan

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> *Apiary Update 4/17/17*
> ...
> I think she may have slipped in a large chocolate-covered pill. ...



The chocolate coating makes it go down easier, but you have to wait 15 minutes for full potency!


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



nickhefferan said:


> The chocolate coating makes it go down easier, but you have to wait 15 minutes for full potency!


All this talk of food is making me hungry for a nice MLT. You know, where the mutton is nice and lean...


----------



## r2t2

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

_Inconceivable!_


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



r2t2 said:


> _Inconceivable!_


I've heard these line a thousand times, but they still make me laugh. Thanks to all for playing along. :applause:


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

A short update on Piper.

The Walt Wright checkerboarding with OSBN clearly worked. It looks like the prior queen was superceded, and the hive didn't swarm. I would love to confirm the supercedure, but I don't want to interrupt this hive while it is on its game. I wish I could thank Walt Wright, but at least I can thank squarepeg (Thanks so much!) for some great counsel on the technique.

This is Piper on May 2nd:








I took that as a hint it needed more room. On May 6th, Another box was added, along with a Flowhive on top.








Yesterday, Piper gained 17 pounds from early AM to Nightfall. It usually loses 20%-50% (3-7lbs) of the day's gain each evening.

I am very thankful for everyone's help on Beesource in getting to this point. Also to Richmond Bee Supply for a great survivor queen.


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> Yesterday, Piper gained 17 pounds from early AM to Nightfall. It usually loses 20%-50% (3-7lbs) of the day's gain each evening.


Great update, CLong. I am amazed that you have such immediate and precise information about hive weights, temperatures, etc. Is all of that coming from your Broodminder?


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> Great update, CLong. I am amazed that you have such immediate and precise information about hive weights, temperatures, etc. Is all of that coming from your Broodminder?


Litsinger,

Yes. It will give you real-time data. It is interesting to see the daily changes. You can tell a lot about bee behavior: when the bees take off in the morning, when they return in the evening, when they swarm, and when the beekeeper forgot to put the brick back on top of the lid  . Also, the weight gain during the day, and the weight losses at night due to evaporation.

On a related note, have you seen this?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/beehealthguru/bee-health-guru-a-smartphone-app-for-beekeepers/description


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> On a related note, have you seen this?
> 
> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/beehealthguru/bee-health-guru-a-smartphone-app-for-beekeepers/description


CLong:

That is really amazing that you are able to access so much information from one device- might be worth investing in one for a trial.

I saw the app you refer to on a Facebook forum I follow, but the crowd there was unimpressed... that said, I am of the opinion that if there is technology that makes one a better beekeeper and/or significantly improves one's management success, it is at least worth evaluating in good faith.


----------



## lharder

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

I agree that so much can be learned. I wish I had some devices like this.


----------



## MattDavey

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Looking good! Well done.

So how are the other 2 older hives going?


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



MattDavey said:


> Looking good! Well done.
> 
> So how are the other 2 older hives going?


Matt,

Thanks. I've had much help along the way.

Paradise is working on filling a super with honey. It is trudging along with the flow in full gear. I may get 30 lbs, if all goes well.

Elijah has become a resource hive. It wasn't building up much. It has contributed to two splits, and now has two closed queen cells. The original queen is still laying in a three-frame nuc. She just won't quit.

Now, I'm just hoping for one more swarm, making some nucs in June, and setting up for next year.

How are things going for you?


----------



## MattDavey

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

We have had one of the worst droughts on record. The rain has only just started in the last few weeks.

I have a couple of hives near farmland and they had to be fed to get ready for winter.

I still got honey from the main hive at home. I also made a late summer Nuc from it and both doing very well. Haven't had to feed them.

(I usually only have 4-5 hives at a time).


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

May 27th inspection:

1804 Piper: A couple weeks ago, I saw two different bees pulling out small shiny white blobs. I wasn’t able to get a good look at the time, but they looked like pupae. I am hopeful that this a good sign. This hive is still eking out small gains, but it is clear that the flow is over.

1811 Paradise: This hive was second most productive this year. It has produced 30-40 pounds of honey for harvest. I moved this queen into a nuc, and used the hive to create some queen cells from a descendent of Piper’s original queen. One of the queen cells will go into an 8-frame jumbo hive.

1902 Bookworm: (2019 Swarm #2) Grown to 2 full 8 frame boxes. Needs a third box.

1904: Created a nuc and placed a swarm cell from a friend’s hive. The cell spent 30 minutes wrapped loosely in tinfoil during transport before it was installed. It didn't produce a queen, and was torn down. Instead, the bees created their own queen in spite of a relatively low population. If she proves to lay well, I might let her go through the winter. Otherwise, the queen will be replaced.

The rest of the hives are doing fine. So far, the home-grown insulated boxes are working fine, other than the loud squeaky sound when propolized boxes are pried apart.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> May 27th inspection:


Enjoyed the update, CLong. Have you set-up a parametric evaluation of non-insulated versus insulated hive bodies with your broodminder to see if you can locally validate any of the hypotheses that Derek Mitchell (among others) assert with more highly-insulated assemblies? I continue to watch your efforts in this area with great interest to consider if/when I may want to dip my toes into this area.

Are you in a dearth in your area now?


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> Enjoyed the update, CLong. Have you set-up a parametric evaluation of non-insulated versus insulated hive bodies with your broodminder to see if you can locally validate any of the hypotheses that Derek Mitchell (among others) assert with more highly-insulated assemblies? I continue to watch your efforts in this area with great interest to consider if/when I may want to dip my toes into this area.


Russ,

I would need another set of Broodminder scales and temp/humidity sensors to compare side-by-side. Right now, I don't have the means or equipment to yield results that are statistically significant. I'll have to leave that sort of experiment for others. A particular broadcast of Kiwimana Buzz reported on a commercial beekeeper who reported 30% gains in nectar production a couple years ago. I think Derek Mitchell has referred to him as well. He has hundreds of hives as I recall. He ended up switching from wooden Langs to Poly. I don't know if that was same year/same yard or across years. 

Right now, I am relying on intuition, anecdote, and Derek Mitchell's research to determine the best hive set-up at my yard.



Litsinger said:


> Are you in a dearth in your area now?


Yes, it is looking that way. The bees are still bringing in nectar, but the traffic across all hives has greatly diminished.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> I would need another set of Broodminder scales and temp/humidity sensors to compare side-by-side. Right now, I don't have the means or equipment to yield results that are statistically significant. I'll have to leave that sort of experiment for others. A particular broadcast of Kiwimana Buzz reported on a commercial beekeeper who reported 30% gains in nectar production a couple years ago. I think Derek Mitchell has referred to him as well. He has hundreds of hives as I recall. He ended up switching from wooden Langs to Poly. I don't know if that was same year/same yard or across years.
> 
> Right now, I am relying on intuition, anecdote, and Derek Mitchell's research to determine the best hive set-up at my yard.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it is looking that way. The bees are still bringing in nectar, but the traffic across all hives has greatly diminished.


Hi Clong, what is the Approximate R value increase from The 3/4 pine to the Poly hive? Or about how thick is the foam on your hives. If I wanted to duplicate the R Value.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Gray Goose said:


> Hi Clong, what is the Approximate R value increase from The 3/4 pine to the Poly hive? Or about how thick is the foam on your hives. If I wanted to duplicate the R Value.


GG,

I used 1" foam with an R-value of 5. I think 3/4" wood is .75ish?


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> GG,
> 
> I used 1" foam with an R-value of 5. I think 3/4" wood is .75ish?


thank you for that info. Have you ever done just the brood nest with the poly? My thoughts are make foam panels, as tall as the 2 deeps and one medium, (my somewhat typical brood nest size) fasten them to the 4 sides, (last winter I used cardboard corners and cheap ratchet straps) and then leave that be while supering and removing the honey and then for winter. do you feel it is important to insulate the supers as well? I am trying to not have to start over, use the lang gear I have, and still get the results you are seeing. I most definitely agree that with insulated brood area you would have a faster build up as the same amount of bees could cover a slightly larger brood area. But am pondering that once we start storing the honey, in the supers, the insulation may be less "critical" up in the super stack. I appreciate your input, as you are walking the walk.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Gray Goose said:


> thank you for that info. Have you ever done just the brood nest with the poly? My thoughts are make foam panels, as tall as the 2 deeps and one medium, (my somewhat typical brood nest size) fasten them to the 4 sides, (last winter I used cardboard corners and cheap ratchet straps) and then leave that be while supering and removing the honey and then for winter. do you feel it is important to insulate the supers as well? I am trying to not have to start over, use the lang gear I have, and still get the results you are seeing. I most definitely agree that with insulated brood area you would have a faster build up as the same amount of bees could cover a slightly larger brood area. But am pondering that once we start storing the honey, in the supers, the insulation may be less "critical" up in the super stack. I appreciate your input, as you are walking the walk.


Gray Goose,

I started out doing just the brood boxes, but later decided to go all in as soon as possible. I didn't like the idea of having to fool with insulation every season, and any time I went into a lower brood box. Then Derek Mitchell released his latest paper on foraging efficiency. This convinced me to stick with insulation year-round. I think insulating the supers is less important than insulating for winter survival and spring build-up.

Your idea for foam panels that encase the entire brood area is a great approach. The following beekeeper does just that: http://www.nnjbees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Winterization-and-Hive-Insulation-v20151013.pdf

In honor of Russ, here is a list of perceived benefits of insulated hives so far:

1. Better winter survival
2. Less use of stores
3. Earlier brood buildup
4. Earlier wax making
5. Earlier nectar storage
6. Less stress on bees?


In honor of Riverderwent, a submission for his list of answers to beekeepers: 

86. If you want something not done right, you've got to not do it yourself.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Right now, I am relying on intuition, anecdote, and Derek Mitchell's research to determine the best hive set-up at my yard.


Nothing wrong with this, at least in my book. If nothing else, you can use Newton's Method to hone-in on what works best in your specific locale and management style. If you don't mind, remind me- your current year-round set-up is:

1" polyiso on all four sides? Is it foil-faced?

1" polyiso under the lid? It it foil-faced? ... and no active ventilation?

Solid bottom boards tilted slightly forward to allow excess condensation to run out the front?



clong said:


> Yes, it is looking that way. The bees are still bringing in nectar, but the traffic across all hives has greatly diminished.


Same here- recently received a lot of rain and a return to more seasonal temps so the white clover has made a bit of a resurgence, but not too strong.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> In honor of Russ, here is a list of perceived benefits of insulated hives so far:
> 
> 1. Better winter survival
> 2. Less use of stores
> 3. Earlier brood buildup
> 4. Earlier wax making
> 5. Earlier nectar storage
> 6. Less stress on bees?


Thanks for the shout-out- don't forget that I am a 'glass half empty' guy so you have to give all the perceived negatives as well .

In seriousness (and along these lines) I have been pleasantly surprised with the Warre hives I inherited versus my Langstroth hives as follows:

1. They are made of standard 2X stock (and anecdotal as it may be), it seems that the added insulation has yielded practical benefit in hot weather to these colonies thus far relative to the colonies in 1X Langstroth boxes.

2. The hive set-up itself is simpler as each box has an identical 1" diameter opening in it which negates the need for a purpose-built bottom board. 

3. Related to (2), having these openings at each level gives you a crude 'at-a-glance' assessment of colony strength by judging the number of heads sticking out each hole.

4. Ironically, I find I squish less bees when manipulating the 2X boxes versus the 1X boxes- maybe the added thickness encourages them to stage on the inside face of the box rather than on the top edge?



clong said:


> In honor of Riverderwent, a submission for his list of answers to beekeepers:
> 
> 86. If you want something not done right, you've got to not do it yourself.


Now this is funny!


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> Nothing wrong with this, at least in my book. If nothing else, you can use Newton's Method to hone-in on what works best in your specific locale and management style. If you don't mind, remind me- your current year-round set-up is:
> 
> 1" polyiso on all four sides? Is it foil-faced?
> 
> 1" polyiso under the lid? It it foil-faced? ... and no active ventilation?
> 
> Solid bottom boards tilted slightly forward to allow excess condensation to run out the front?


Russ,

1" poly rigid foam on all all four sides of each box, non foil-faced. The foam on the outside of the boxes is painted.

2" rigid foam tightly wedged inside a custom-built telescoping cover. The sides of the cover are 3-4 inches high to accomodate this.

The biggest hive was top-vented during the flow. All the rest have remained closed up top. Next year, if I have multiple bigger colonies I'll compare closed top vents to open top vents side-by-side _during_ the flow. I'm curious to see how much nightly weight losses differ between the two set-ups.

Solid bottom boards made of 1.5" lumber. The stands are tilted at present, but I have contemplated making bottom boards with the bottom surface pitched towards the entrance. I think I would get some burr comb on the bottom of the frames, but I don't know that that would be so bad.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> In seriousness (and along these lines) I have been pleasantly surprised with the Warre hives I inherited versus my Langstroth hives as follows:
> 
> 1. They are made of standard 2X stock (and anecdotal as it may be), it seems that the added insulation has yielded practical benefit in hot weather to these colonies thus far relative to the colonies in 1X Langstroth boxes.
> 
> 2. The hive set-up itself is simpler as each box has an identical 1" diameter opening in it which negates the need for a purpose-built bottom board.
> 
> 3. Related to (2), having these openings at each level gives you a crude 'at-a-glance' assessment of colony strength by judging the number of heads sticking out each hole.


Russ,

1. 2x stock does help vs 1x, without a doubt. I have a few 2x 8-frame mediums. As I get older, I am loathe to heave around all the heavy lumber. I've had some acute episodes with my back in the past. That being said, I'm currently reading a book which includes simple steps to ease back pain. So far I'm impressed.

2. This is what motivates much of my beekeeping equipment and management - simplicity. Anything that reduces the amount of equipment, and requires less management is good.

3. This is why I like plexiglass covers. At-a-glance observation. But I can't see much of what is going on in lower boxes.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> 2. This is what motivates much of my beekeeping equipment and management - simplicity. Anything that reduces the amount of equipment, and requires less management is good.


CLong:

Thank you for your replies- I sincerely appreciate you clarifying your current set-up and I will be interested to see how your side-by-side comparison of vented versus non-vented tops turns out next year. 

The idea of simplicity has really hit home for me this year while bumbling my way through expanding the apiary. While having all these gadgets really appeals to my analytical bent toward optimization, the practical aspects of timely management and labor efficiency quickly becomes an important (and competing) factor. 

I see now the appeal to 10-frame deeps, solid bottoms and migratory covers- less moving parts.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> CLong:
> 
> Thank you for your replies- I sincerely appreciate you clarifying your current set-up and I will be interested to see how your side-by-side comparison of vented versus non-vented tops turns out next year.
> 
> The idea of simplicity has really hit home for me this year while bumbling my way through expanding the apiary. While having all these gadgets really appeals to my analytical bent toward optimization, the practical aspects of timely management and labor efficiency quickly becomes an important (and competing) factor.
> 
> I see now the appeal to 10-frame deeps, solid bottoms and migratory covers- less moving parts.


Russ, At some point, if/When you start making your own wooden ware, the simpler the better. So understand the bees needs and your needs then use your analytical aptitude to sketch /design the parts , cut them out build/ paint etc. Pm Me if you want some pics and Ideas. I now have 1/2 and 1/2 8 frame and 10 frame. After grabbing a 10 frame of Honey a few dozen times the 20% reduction in weight and size has helped a lot. I also noted at times the 10 frame boxes in the spring had the bees right to the top and honey in frame 1, and 10 where they went up the center. The 8 frame gear has less of this chimney effect, however on really good laying queens it is no problem to get 32 frames of bees prior to honey flow. Remember your tree at work, bees will be fine in a hollow tree or wall, your plans just need to be more manageable than a tree.  with that goal it seems easier to design. Have fun
GG


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Gray Goose said:


> Russ, At some point, if/When you start making your own wooden ware, the simpler the better. So understand the bees needs and your needs then use your analytical aptitude to sketch /design the parts , cut them out build/ paint etc. Pm Me if you want some pics and Ideas. I now have 1/2 and 1/2 8 frame and 10 frame. After grabbing a 10 frame of Honey a few dozen times the 20% reduction in weight and size has helped a lot. I also noted at times the 10 frame boxes in the spring had the bees right to the top and honey in frame 1, and 10 where they went up the center. The 8 frame gear has less of this chimney effect, however on really good laying queens it is no problem to get 32 frames of bees prior to honey flow. Remember your tree at work, bees will be fine in a hollow tree or wall, your plans just need to be more manageable than a tree.  with that goal it seems easier to design. Have fun
> GG


GG:

Thank you for the very generous offer- I really appreciate that, and might just take you up on it.

If pressed today, I think I would continue to remain standardized around the 8-frame Langstroth Medium dimensions, maybe out of no other reason but stubbornness. That said, I have been pleasantly surprised with several (but not all) the aspects of the homemade Warre hives I picked-up this year, namely:

Standard non-painted 2X lumber. Looks like one could abstract this for standard Langstroth Mediums using #2 Grade 2X8's. The bodies themselves are butt-jointed and fastened together with deck screws and your frame ledge would be the only dado cut you would have to make.

Standard 1/2 plywood for bottom board and inner cover- maybe ditch the inner cover in favor of propolized burlap.

Single round entrance opening drilled in the middle front face of each hive body, sloped slightly downward.

For a lid- maybe a modified migratory lid (possibly with aluminum sheathing) with extra depth for rigid foam and/or the possibility of adjustable top ventilation.

That said, I am going to focus first on filling-up the woodenware I have now... which might take awhile.

Thanks again for the advice and offer of help. I do appreciate it.

Have a great weekend.

Russ


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

6/14/19 Hive Report

Three hives were opened. Piper (1803) was harvested taking advantage of an usually cool morning of 54 degrees to utilize an escape board. The escape was on for only 18 hours. About 30% of the bees remained in the supers when they were removed. Only 3 supers were taken off, one being 1/2 full. 
Four honey frames were harvested from Paradise (1811).

Piper yielded 63 lbs, and Paradise, 12 lbs.

The honey from both hives was at 16% H2O. My trainee brought two frames from his hives which measured 20%. We decided to harvest his frames, and after mixing in the extractor the honey came out at 18.5%. Hopefully, it won't ferment. It is interesting that his honey was taken from non-insulated hives. Piper and Paradise are both insulated top to bottom. Perhaps the insulation really does help in drying the nectar.

This year I tried putting the extractor on a four-wheeled dolly, with an elevated clamped on top. It worked better than expected.









The other hive inspected was 1901 (Westley). The telescoping lid had been pulled off a couple times in the last 10 days, but every time it was raised, the bees would come boiling out of the standard inner cover. These bees seemed mean. I was suited up head to toe this time, so I decided to take a look again. Again, they boiled out, and managed to sting me in the ankle after only being open for 10 seconds. These bees *are* mean. I had honey to spin out, so I closed it back up. It looks like I will need to requeen this one.

This is the best honey harvest I have had, so I am very thankful. Next year I hope to extract in the 200-300 lb range.


----------



## Litsinger

CLong:

Good update- looks like you had some capable help with your extraction efforts. Glad to see it is a family venture.

Best of luck in the second half of the season.

Russ


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> CLong:
> 
> Good update- looks like you had some capable help with your extraction efforts. Glad to see it is a family venture.
> 
> Best of luck in the second half of the season.
> 
> Russ


Russ,

I hope your season finishes out well too. Thankfully, my girls put up with me. And I don't mean the bees.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> I hope your season finishes out well too. Thankfully, my girls put up with me. And I don't mean the bees.


I completely understand- with my wife, five daughters and now a female cat I am vastly outnumbered!


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

I don't post too much in the way of research, but my wife sent me an interesting link this morning concerning the role of RNA in honey bee colonies. I think it might have implications regarding treatment-free beekeeping, and queen-rearing. I'm still trying to digest it and understand it. I haven't read the source documents yet, but here it is: If anyone one cares to write a summary on it, please be my guest! 

https://answersingenesis.org/creepy-crawlies/insects/honey-bee-medicine/


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> I don't post too much in the way of research, but my wife sent me an interesting link this morning concerning the role of RNA in honey bee colonies. I think it might have implications regarding treatment-free beekeeping, and queen-rearing. I'm still trying to digest it and understand it. I haven't read the source documents yet, but here it is: If anyone one cares to write a summary on it, please be my guest!
> 
> https://answersingenesis.org/creepy-crawlies/insects/honey-bee-medicine/


Great article, CLong. I enjoyed the read- amazing stuff! Two things stood out to me:

_Ingested miRNAs could confer immunity not only to the bees that ingested it but also to the entire hive. It could be spread to both other adult bees and the larval brood by trophallaxis._

_Larvae fed on beebread are destined to become sterile worker bees. It turns out that these plant miRNAs in the beebread are preventing the larvae from developing into queens. _

For my part, it is hard not to observe the fingerprints of creative influence while participating in even a casual study of biology.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

7/6/19 Hive Report

Went out to the beeyard with the intent to locate the queen in Piper. The plan was to mark her and move some eggs into an 8-frame nuc to make some queen cells. There was a fair amount of closed brood, but no open brood. 75% of the frames in the brood chamber were examined. Each of the other hives I investigated had open brood. Apparently, the queen is taking a break

Westley, the "mean" hive was much better behaved today, so it gets to keep its queen for now.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Apparently, the queen is taking a break
> 
> Westley, the "mean" hive was much better behaved today, so it gets to keep its queen for now.


Good update, CLong. I had a similar experience a couple weeks ago regarding finding no open brood in a colony and wrongly concluding they were queenless. Hopefully Piper is simply responding to forage availability and biding their time.

Has Westley been persistently 'mean' or is this a recent occurrence?

Good luck to you in the second half of the year.

Russ


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Chris, I had a similar experience this weekend in one of the hives I inspected. Capped brood on several frames and eggs everywhere, but very little open brood, maybe half a frame total. Figure she took a breather as the flow tapered off. Never seen so many eggs in one hive before. Put feeders on several of the hives and set out the pollen sub to help get things going again.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> Good update, CLong. I had a similar experience a couple weeks ago regarding finding no open brood in a colony and wrongly concluding they were queenless. Hopefully Piper is simply responding to forage availability and biding their time.
> 
> Has Westley been persistently 'mean' or is this a recent occurrence?
> 
> Good luck to you in the second half of the year.
> 
> Russ


Russ,

Thanks for the good wishes. 

Westley was mean for about 6 weeks running. As soon as I would lift the tele-cover the bees would come boiling out and start pinging me. I've detected faint skunk smells around the beeyard, but no signs of skunks in the beeyard. The last inspection, I used a little smoke, and they were fine.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



JWPalmer said:


> Chris, I had a similar experience this weekend in one of the hives I inspected. Capped brood on several frames and eggs everywhere, but very little open brood, maybe half a frame total. Figure she took a breather as the flow tapered off. Never seen so many eggs in one hive before. Put feeders on several of the hives and set out the pollen sub to help get things going again.


JW, its reassuring to hear you and others are seeing the same. I don't worry over my hives as much as I used to, but it is still tempting to dive in and "do something." My wife says "do nothing." So now I split the difference.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> JW, its reassuring to hear you and others are seeing the same. I don't worry over my hives as much as I used to, but it is still tempting to dive in and "do something." My wife says "do nothing." So now I split the difference.


I love this- I can totally identify with this sentiment. One time last year my wife asked me, 'why are you feeding bees'? I instantly recognized the wisdom in this, allowing plenty of room for the need to feed periodically when necessary... but often, less is most certainly more.

Glad to hear that Westley has settled-down- maybe it was in fact as straightforward as pest stress?


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

I just got a chance to look at this thread. I haven't gotten to read the paper yet. 

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?356341-a-scientific-look-at-mite-bombs&p=1742229#post1742229

The paper reminded me of two things.

Bee mite:
My trainee just did a mite wash on his two hives which are descendants of my longest-surviving queen. (Elijah) Both hives came in at 1% mites.

Bee might:
I also built and installed my first prototype robber screen in preparation for the dearth. It was installed late in the evening. Five minutes later there was a bee hauling a ****roach up the screen. The roach must have been 3x longer than the bee.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Bee mite:
> 
> Bee might:
> 
> Nice turn-of-phrase- good to hear your progeny is expressing low mite counts. Bodes well for your efforts.
> 
> I too am looking forward to reading the 'mite bomb' article. When you get a few robbing screens built, you should post a couple of pictures for ideas.
> 
> Keep up the good work-
> 
> Russ


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

7/27/19 Report

This spring, I checkerboarded hive #1803 Piper, using Walt Wright’s method, and inserted a couple frames using Matt Davey’s OSBN technique . One of the things Walt Wright observed, was that often the queen was superseded during the process; even if the queen was laying well.

Last Saturday, I attempted to find the queen in Piper. This was the fourth time I had tried this season. She was finally located on the last frame inspected – a honey frame. The queen was unmarked. Finding the queen had been replaced was confirmation of another of Mr. Wright’s observations.

One of the consequences was that the hive was open for a long time. Between 20-30 minutes. A robbing frenzy erupted. It was alarming. I installed a robbing screen I had made on the most vulnerable hive (I'll include pics in another post), and proceeded to cover every hive with tarps and sheets. It was eerie how when one hive was covered, the cloud of robbers would quickly converge on an adjacent hive. This would be one argument for widely-spaced hives. My hives are behind a bear fence, so I’ll continue to keep them in one area, but I may at least reconfigure the yard for better spacing.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Robber screen and hive body:

The robber screen referenced in post #177 is below:





















I'm not satisfied with the doors. I would like one that slides, but I haven't figured out how to do it yet.

I've also attached a picture of the roughed-up interior of a hive body that has been on a hive for 3 months. There really isn't very much propolis. The bees only coated the areas that have scaly or "hairy" surfaces. It was roughed up with 24-grit sanding disk. If anyone has suggestions on how to rough up the walls so that the bees are more inclined to deposit propolis, I would be grateful.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> If anyone has suggestions on how to rough up the walls so that the bees are more inclined to deposit propolis, I would be grateful.


CLong:

Good to hear your update- and sorry about the robbing. This is a very disconcerting thing to see first-hand.

I could not open your photos, so you may have to reattach them?

Regarding encouraging a propolis envelope, have you read the following paper? In it the researchers test various approaches and report the results:

https://entomologytoday.org/2018/11/28/propolis-how-beekeepers-encourage-better-hive-health/


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> CLong:
> 
> I could not open your photos, so you may have to reattach them?
> 
> Regarding encouraging a propolis envelope, have you read the following paper? In it the researchers test various approaches and report the results:
> 
> https://entomologytoday.org/2018/11/28/propolis-how-beekeepers-encourage-better-hive-health/


Russ,

I've read that paper. What I am failing to do is to get the surface roughed up properly. I think it is the hairy surface that gets the bees busy. The propolis photo I included show that the smooth-sided gouges don't get any attention. If I can ever find a cheap supply of rough-cut lumber, I'll be in business!

I moved the photo links around. Apparently, that messes up the links. It should be fixed now. Thanks for pointing it out.


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> .....
> 
> I've also attached a picture of the roughed-up interior of a hive body that has been on a hive for 3 months. There really isn't very much propolis. The bees only coated the areas that have scaly or "hairy" surfaces. It was roughed up with 24-grit sanding disk. If anyone has suggestions on how to rough up the walls so that the bees are more inclined to deposit propolis, I would be grateful.
> 
> View attachment 50443


In my opinion, this is the genetic propolizing trait of certain bees that is really the "elephant in the room" (#1). 
Well discussed but gets ignored due to the US bee melting pot situation.
#2 - most all bees will propolise the strategic places that really *affect the micro-climate control* - the ceiling is one such place.
Install burlap directly over the frames and watch what happens - the fabric will be plugged very heavily and ASAP so to make it air/moisture impermeable.
Solid vertical wall faces are not the place to propolise so to critically control the hive temperature/humidity as they are mostly are air/moisture proof as-is.
It really is waste of valuable resource that takes lots of time and effort to harvest (propolise) to be applying it at random right and left.

You can rough the walls all you want, it not the really the biggest deal.
Am not sure why they even dwell on this "wall propolising" thing (a typical tangent, I feel).
Just google up different hive systems and try them ALL and watch how it *really *works.
For sure - the skeps or straw-walled hives where the wall propolising would be required to make the walls moisture/air proof so to make the habitable.

This standard, commercial box-hive centric research of anything and everything sends wrong signals.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



GregV said:


> In my opinion, this is a genetic trait of certain bees that is really the "elephant in the room" (#1).
> #2 - most all bees will propolise the strategic places that really *affect the micro-climate control* - the ceiling is such place.
> Install burlap directly over the frames and watch what happens.
> Walls are not the place to propolise so to critically control the hive temperature/humidity.
> 
> You can rough the walls all you want, it not the really the biggest deal.
> Am not sure why they even dwell on this "wall propolising" thing.
> Just google up different hive systems and try them ALL and watch (for sure - the skeps or straw-walled hives where the wall propolising would be required to make the walls moisture/air proof).
> 
> This standard, commercial box-hive centric research of anything and everything sends wrong signals.


Gregv,

Yep, you got me. If the bees really needed to propolize the walls, they would do so. Why do I think I need to induce them to do so?

I have one poly hive. They did fine last winter and this spring. And they don't even leave a mark, except when they want to make a bridge from the comb to the wall.

You just saved me a lot of work this winter!


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> I'm not satisfied with the doors. I would like one that slides, but I haven't figured out how to do it yet.


They still look really well done for homemade. Good work.


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Gregv,
> 
> Yep, you got me. If the bees really needed to propolize the walls, they would do so. Why do I think I need to induce them to do so?
> 
> I have one poly hive. They did fine last winter and this spring. And they don't even leave a mark, except when they want to make a bridge from the comb to the wall.
> 
> You just saved me a lot of work this winter!


You are welcome.
I do get irked by this "researchers" a lot.
They just need to go away to travel the world for 2-3 years; and leave us alone.
I am sure, the tunes will change A LOT once the "researchers" come back.


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Chris, do your robber screens have an upper entrance? That is the key to having them work. These are nuc robber screens I made last year. Note the 3/8" by 3/4" top entrance and no bottom entrance. They are very effective at preventing robbing.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



JWPalmer said:


> Chris, do your robber screens have an upper entrance? That is the key to having them work. These are nuc robber screens I made last year. Note the 3/8" by 3/4" top entrance and no bottom entrance. They are very effective at preventing robbing.
> 
> View attachment 50461


JW,

No, they don't. I have cleats holding my insulation on. The screens can't be any taller than 3" or so, to fit under the cleat. The cool think is, I can slide it right under the cleat, and it stays tight. 

I might look into a upper right-side entrance. Perhaps one could be created on the front edge of the top. If you have any ideas, I'm all ears.

Thank for the good advice.


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



GregV said:


> You are welcome.
> I do get irked by this "researchers" a lot.
> They just need to go away to travel the world for 2-3 years; and leave us alone.
> I am sure, the tunes will change A LOT once the "researchers" come back.


For example, here (listen T. Seeling talking about propolis starting about 50:00 and on):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7CB8E7jKBc

Well what is totally omitted (by design OR by not understanding of the basic building principles; the latter I think) is - the rotten wood is basically a natural sponge.
This sponge both takes in and emits out lots of moisture, depending on the ongoing gradients. 
The rotten wood is very good moisture sink.
For example, in summer it will absorb lots of moisture and hold it (this will be messing up with normal bee colony moisture controls).
In winter it will be giving away that moisture (not good) and/or freezing solid IF fully saturated.
This sponge is working counter to what the bees want to have within the nest.

And so - living in ice-walled cavity is a death sentence to the bees or approaching to the same.
And so - the bees are propolising the woody sponge completely shut so to insulate from it - so that they themselves are able to control the micro-climate of the cavity.
This is very similar to how I want my own fiberglass/cellulose insulation in the walls - I want it dry.
There is vapor impermeable membrane in my walls between the spongy wall insulation and the conditioned space (this is by design) - exactly what bees are trying to achieve also (by creating very similar impermeable membrane between the leaving space and the spongy and hydro-philippic rotten wood.

Well, listen to Seeley (who is referencing Spivac) about how *the wild bees mean it to propolise their nest so they are healthier.*

What?
Now, this kinds of nonsense I don't want to hear coming from the researches.
First and for most - propolise is a building material, bee cement and bees use it for what it is - to cement things together and to cement holes shut.
Depending on the location, the propolise has totally different make up and different "medicinal" properties because of this.
Why no one discusses then differences between birch-based propolise vs. poplar-based propolise, etc. etc. 
Which locations less or more healthy propolis?
Which locations are better/worth for the mite tolerance because of the propolis source differences?
Am I crazy?

The "medicinal" propolise properties are just an incidental side-affect and there is nothing else to it.
For the fact, birch buds are commonly collected in Euro in spring before they open up for exactly that - medicinal usage.
Bees just use the conveniently sticky resins from those same birch buds for their building projects and all it is to it.

As well it was pointed out how some bees just don't do the propolise (the Egyptians) and yet are very healthy. 
I suppose the Egyptians (the bees) do not have to deal with the moisture much, living in Egypt.

PS: to be sure, I did enjoy watching the lecture - good stuff (minus my gripes)


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



GregV said:


> For example, here (listen T. Seeling talking about propolis starting about 50:00 and on):
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7CB8E7jKBc


Great video, GregV. I appreciate you posting. Did you have the opportunity to watch the part I video with Mr. Roger Patterson?

At about the 58 minute mark he spends quite a lot of time talking about his extensive observations with propolis in un-managed colonies. Sounds like his observations square with your thoughts.


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> Great video, GregV. I appreciate you posting. Did you have the opportunity to watch the part I video with Mr. Roger Patterson?
> 
> At about the 58 minute mark he spends quite a lot of time talking about his extensive observations with propolis in un-managed colonies. Sounds like his observations square with your thoughts.


Actually, watching the Part I RIGHT NOW!
I really like this fellow, Roger Patterson a lot.
He immediately raises lots of uncomfortable facts that oppose the ideas pushed by the researchers.
Like the natural bee density is said by T. Seeley to be ~1/km square.
Well, like I was saying - the density is dictated by the real estate availability (nothing wrong with taking a tree nearby IF there is a hole in it; but the chances of that are not high).
Right there in the Part I lecture, go to 1:04:00 - a great example of how bees will naturally nest *right next to each other* (if an opportunity presents itself they will do exactly that).

Mr. Patterson did say that the bees probably propolise the hive inside for health reasons.
I am unconvinced.
Just today as I was pulling up my burlap rags from the top bars, I again observed and thought of it.
In my setting, 80-90% of the propolise by volume is stuffed into the burlap and the top bar cracks so to control the air/moisture from going up and through.
They put it where it is needed for micro-climate control before anything else.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



GregV said:


> Mr. Patterson did say that the bees probably propolise the hive inside for health reasons.
> I am unconvinced.


Good feedback, GregV. I wonder (just a guess on my part) that this type of interaction shows the myriad dynamic interactions of the created order. In other words, whether the bees 'know' if propolis is good for them or not, they are collecting it by necessity and gaining a side benefit thereby. Kind of like I eat fruit because I need to eat, it tastes good, and I get the side benefit of the bioflavonoids along the way? Just speculating.


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> ....... Kind of like I eat fruit because I need to eat, it tastes good, and I get the side benefit of the bioflavonoids along the way? Just speculating.


I think exactly what it is, Russ.

Bees don't know what is good and what is bad for them.
They just react to the short-term and long-term obvious needs best they can (bad choices lead to death).
Same as people used to do (until the era of abstraction and virtualization began - we call it "information age" to make it sound better).


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



GregV said:


> I think exactly what it is, Russ.
> 
> Bees don't know what is good and what is bad for them.
> They just react to the short-term and long-term obvious needs best they can (bad choices lead to death).
> Same as people used to do (until the era of abstraction and virtualization began - we call it "information age" to make it sound better).


IMO the propolise is the bees caulking gun. They collect it to "fix leaks" in the hive, air flow and humidity and temperature changes, Bees want stability to raise brood. Same as us if the rain or wind is coming in the kids bedroom we would fix it. Happens the tree sap is also anti microbial and anti fungal, so it works good for them. I would not over think it too much. I eat a lot of it BTW especially when cleaning Hive parts up. Likely it also works like sticky paper placed on floors in data centers and Hospitals to help remove "stuff" from the bottoms of our feet. There was not as many "perfect" cavities, 1000 years ago. the non perfect ones could be "retrofitted " with caulking to be more perfect. example a Skep it is basically a grass sieve, coat of Propolise and now an air tight hive. Also can be chewed out for more air and pasted back for winter. It is a very versatile building material for the bees.
GG


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Gray Goose said:


> IMO the propolise is the bees caulking gun. ...GG


+1

Like I said, the researchers are too eager in their seeking out the sexy subjects so that they can get more grants and push more paper and keep their name in circulation and create new business opportunities.
This is one such subject.
I don't approve such "gymnastics" (akin to the "small cell" schtaff).

Just a natural "glue" with beneficial side-effects - nothing less, nothing more.
The beneficial side-effects are worthy of appropriate applications - not a doubt.
Bees are not intelligent.
They are not aware of phyto-chemical compounds and their benefits.
The bees are just plugging those darn, drafty holes best they can with the best available material they can find.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

I've wondered what impact insulated hives with only a bottom entrance might have on varroa. Heat conservation was the major goal, but what effect does maintaining a consistently higher humidity have on the colony? Derek Mitchell has another research article out which addresses this.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2019.0048

From the abstract:

"It is highly likely that honeybees, in temperate climates and in their natural home, with much smaller thermal conductance and entrance, can achieve higher humidities more easily and more frequently than in man-made hives. As a consequence, it is possible that Varroa destructor, a parasite implicated in the spread of pathogenic viruses and colony collapse, which loses fecundity at absolute humidities of 4.3 kPa (approx. 30 gm−3) and above, is impacted by the more frequent occurrence of higher humidities in these low conductance, small entrance nests."


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> I've wondered what impact insulated hives with only a bottom entrance might have on varroa. Heat conservation was the major goal, but what effect does maintaining a consistently higher humidity have on the colony? Derek Mitchell has another research article out which addresses this.


CLong:

Thank you for the post. I sincerely appreciate it. Have you been able to find access to the full article without having to go through a pay wall?

This may be common knowledge (and if it is I will apologize in advance), but if we take as a given that higher humidity reduces varroa fecundity, is it also safe to assume that colonies would prefer to maintain higher hive humidity values if given the means to do so?

A quick search yielded the following page (advertising for a hive monitoring device) which states that, _"During the brood rearing period median levels of humidity in the nest of a healthy strong colony is between 50% and 60%. It is rarely found to be below 40% and above 80%. On a daily basis this value is stable and not correlated to the ambient conditions in a strong colony, whereas in a weak colony it follows the pattern of ambient conditions. During the winter cluster the humidity and temperature patterns are closely correlated with the ambient conditions, with a 1-2 h lag caused by the hive inertia."_

https://www.arnia.co.uk/hive-humidity/

Here is another interesting study that is posted at Honey Bee Suite:

https://www.honeybeesuite.com/hive-temperature-vs-humidity/

Thanks again for the information.

Russ


----------



## crofter

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

With only a bottom entrance for ventilation it is essential that snow, ice, normal accumulations of dead bees etc., are not allowed to block the only source of air exchange.

Usual snow conditions allow some air channels to form around a snowed in hive but freezing rain and hard drifted snow can effectively make them air tight.


Bees defintely can suffocate.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> Thank you for the post. I sincerely appreciate it. Have you been able to find access to the full article without having to go through a pay wall?


Russ,

I tried to find Derek Mitchell's article online - to no avail. I even went to the local library. No access there either. I think the only way to get it free is through a University library.

I haven't had time the articles you linked. Thanks for posting them.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> I tried to find Derek Mitchell's article online - to no avail. I even went to the local library. No access there either.


I had the same trouble. Maybe after it has been out for awhile they will make it public domain.

Thanks again for your contributions.

Russ


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Russ and others,

The article can be found here:

From the abstract:

"It is highly likely that honeybees, in temperate climates and in their natural home, with much smaller thermal conductance and entrance, can achieve higher humidities more easily and more frequently than in man-made hives. As a consequence, it is possible that Varroa destructor, a parasite implicated in the spread of pathogenic viruses and colony collapse, which loses fecundity at absolute humidities of 4.3 kPa (approx. 30 gm−3) and above, is impacted by the more frequent occurrence of higher humidities in these low conductance, small entrance nests."

https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/146484/1/whiterose22052019.pdf

Merry Christmas!


----------



## Litsinger

CLong:

Thank you for posting the article- I am looking forward to reading it.

How is everything going in your yard these days?

Merry Christmas to you and your family. 

Russ


----------



## Robert Holcombe

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

CLONG: FYI - I have 9 hives now which have not had a top vent for two years plus, winter and summer but do have insulated top covers. This past year it was no top vent and a 2-inch XPS top cover. My inner "covers" and 12 oz duck cloth or canvass. I have measured inside temperatures inside two hives in the sun on the hottest 93-95F day here. Values never went above 100F. I do OAV treat and use drone brood removal and monitoring for Varroa.

The bees seem to love and heavily propolize the duck cloth. I am heading for insulated hives winter and summer with only a bottom entrance with screened bottom boards.

Thanks for the clue leading me to "White Rose Research Online". It seems everything I think of or deduce about my hives Mitchell is putting a physics paaper on the subject supporting my conclusions. It is scary to implement contrarian thermal and humidity designs. So far I have not killed a colony due to hive design change. I like your insulated super approach.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Robert Holcombe said:


> CLONG: FYI - I have 9 hives now which have not had a top vent for two years plus, winter and summer but do have insulated top covers. This past year it was no top vent and a 2-inch XPS top cover. My inner "covers" and 12 oz duck cloth or canvass. I have measured inside temperatures inside two hives in the sun on the hottest 93-95F day here. Values never went above 100F. I do OAV treat and use drone brood removal and monitoring for Varroa.
> 
> The bees seem to love and heavily propolize the duck cloth. I am heading for insulated hives winter and summer with only a bottom entrance with screened bottom boards.
> 
> Thanks for the clue leading me to "White Rose Research Online". It seems everything I think of or deduce about my hives Mitchell is putting a physics paaper on the subject supporting my conclusions. It is scary to implement contrarian thermal and humidity designs. So far I have not killed a colony due to hive design change. I like your insulated super approach.


Robert,

It is good to know we're on the same path. Going contrarian _is_ hard, but then folks like Langstroth and Wedmore advocated for some of these methods decades ago.

Last year was the first year I went year-round with no top vent, except for the biggest hive. I had a notched inner cover on it for several weeks. Next year if I have at least two big hives, I plan to leave one closed full time. Was the 100F temp at the top of the hive?

All my hives have 1 1/2" solid bottom boards with plexiglass inner covers up top. I love the idea of the propolized cloth cover, but I also like looking in on the bees, especially in winter. This next year, I am going to put a canvas cover on at least one hive. It will be fun to see what the bees do with it.

The White Rose link was just a stab in the dark. I was writing something and I wanted to include the reference to that study. I didn't think I would find the complete paper, but there it was!


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> CLong:
> 
> How is everything going in your yard these days?
> 
> Merry Christmas to you and your family.
> 
> Russ


Russ,

Thanks for the good wishes. I had a November abscond (couldn't find any mite frass ??), and a dink that is getting dinkier by the day. (Bad queen, I'm pretty sure) So, I am soon to be 5/7. The other 5 look good right now. I'll say more later.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Here is a recent article by Derek Mitchell on modern beehive design which is based on his latest research:

https://phys.org/news/2019-09-honey-bees-hives.html


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Quote - "Honey bees are under extreme pressure. The number of honey bee colonies in the US has been declining at an average rate of almost 40% since 2010".

So by 2 1/2 years later they were all gone?


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Oldtimer said:


> Quote - "Honey bees are under extreme pressure. The number of honey bee colonies in the US has been declining at an average rate of almost 40% since 2010".
> 
> So by 2 1/2 years later they were all gone?


Ha! The way I figure it, starting from 2010, we should have about 1% of our colonies left. Hmmm....


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Oldtimer said:


> Quote - "Honey bees are under extreme pressure.* The number of honey bee colonies in the US has been declining at an average rate of almost 40% since 2010".*
> 
> So by 2 1/2 years later they were all gone?


Unsure why the "expansion" side of the equation is always lost.
No need to cry that "bees are dying"; they are not.
Are the cries by design or by ignorance?


In beekeeping equation there are ALWAYS two sides (just like in chemistry, for analogy):
- the loss side
- the expansion side.

In a normal situation the both sides always balance each other (eventually).

50% loss is nothing - as long as it is followed by 100% expansion/recovery.
As in: 
-started with 10
-lost 5 (loss of 50%)
-rebuilt to 10 (gain of 100%).

Lost 5; gained 5.

Simple shtuff.
How bees operate.
Always have been.

PS: an exception of course - systematic, persistent, and effective biosphere elimination as in now (where everything is systematically killed - this is outside of a normal species adaptation scope - everything goes dead)


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

I'm not sure why it is always lost either. Take a look at the wording, which is typical. 

"The number of honey bee colonies in the US has been declining at an average rate of almost 40% since 2010".

Now in English, spoken correctly, if something is declining at 40%, that means that at the end, there is 40% less. 

If we are going to say that population fell by 40% but was then rebuilt to the original level, the rate of decline, was zero.

I expect to see this kind of sensationalism in the newspaper, but not in an article by a guy proposing some research he wants taken seriously.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Oldtimer said:


> I'm not sure why it is always lost either. Take a look at the wording, which is typical.
> 
> "The number of honey bee colonies in the US has been declining at an average rate of almost 40% since 2010".
> 
> Now in English, spoken correctly, if something is declining at 40%, that means that at the end, there is 40% less.
> 
> If we are going to say that population fell by 40% but was then rebuilt to the original level, the rate of decline, was zero.
> 
> I expect to see this kind of sensationalism in the newspaper, but not in an article by a guy proposing some research he wants taken seriously.


So How can he get a grant with out sensationalism?? in Greg's example 10 to 5,, +5 to 10 again "I need a grant to study Zero Percent decline" he is not going to be funded. 
Or it may be the new Math.... IMO its follow the money.
GG


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Nail on head Grey Goose


----------



## Robert Holcombe

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

CLONG: Yes, the temperature of 100F was at the top of the hive. The cluster stayed at 95F. It is fundamentally about managing humidity via temperature control. The toiugh day for a colony is when the temperatures are high, say 90, and the relative humidity is high, say 90% the bees do have much margin to work with and drying honey slows up. I visualize uncapped honey being a buffer for high RH as well as my pine-wood boxes. THere in nothign stopping hydroscopic honey from reabsorbing water when uncapped. Propolis appears to resist water permeation but allows water vapor to pass through (Gortex like behavior). 

Bufferring by absorbing and later releasing water has been seen in reports when trying to weigh hives to determine honey consumption - overwhelms the consumption data during some test periods. I am looking to buy quality humidity and temperature sensors at a reasonable price so I can monitor multiple points in a hive. I just might be able to prove to myself that conservation of energy or honey applies all year as implied by Mitchell. 

I find the canvass cloth vey helpful when trying to check or observe in cold or hot weather. It keeps the bees quite and I can peel back selected areas. Also, I can poke a thermometer through it check a nuc cluster in winter.

Do you perform capped drone removal as a Varroa control mehhod?


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Robert Holcombe said:


> I find the canvass cloth vey helpful when trying to check or observe in cold or hot weather. It keeps the bees quite and I can peel back selected areas. Also, I can poke a thermometer through it check a nuc cluster in winter.
> 
> Do you perform capped drone removal as a Varroa control mehhod?


Robert,

You've really go me thinking about flexible inner covers now. Being able to peel back a little at a time, would be very helpful.

I don't do any kind of varroa control. I hope to write down my thoughts on why sometime in the next couple of months.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> The article can be found here:


CLong:

Thank you for posting this article. I finally had the opportunity to read it, and beyond the practical discussions about humidity and varroa fecundity I was struck by the discussion right at the outset- namely that of an 'extended phenotype':

_"The phenotype, the physical reflection of the gene, cannot be limited to purely the biological aspects of the organism itself because it directly causes change to the environment around it, in accordance with the laws of thermodynamics and mass and energy conservation. For most organisms the realm of their influence extends only a very small distance from the biological issue of the animal. However for those in which this goes beyond the usual, and their reach into environment is significant, then it is termed an “extended phenotype”. The classic case cited is of beavers flooding areas with their dams. For honey bee colonies, perhaps because of the relationship with man the extended nature of this super organism’s phenotype has been overlooked, and viewed as a simple shelter and container of honey and brood. In contrast to the beaver’s dam, which constrains a single visible fluid, some of the fluids involved in a honey bee colony’s nest: air, water vapour, water liquid and carbon dioxide are invisible to human eyes. These fluids are not passively restrained, but actively moved and changed in temperature and physical state within this extended phenotype."_

I'll have to chew on this concept for awhile, but I think the point he is trying to make is that the super-organism's behavior is both impacting and being impacted by the volume they are located in. Makes intuitive sense to me.

Thanks again for posting.

Russ

p.s. I look forward to hearing more about the goings-on in your yard this year when you have time.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> CLong:
> I'll have to chew on this concept for awhile, but I think the point he is trying to make is that the super-organism's behavior is both impacting and being impacted by the volume they are located in. Makes intuitive sense to me.


I've always felt there is an over-reliance on reductionism in modern science. It is useful in understanding honey bees, but it should never exclude the holistic view.

After skimming the paper, and thinking back on my own observations, how is all the water removed when a hive is desiccating nectar? I've never observed water running out of a hive. Do the bees carry it out?



Litsinger said:


> p.s. I look forward to hearing more about the goings-on in your yard this year when you have time.


Russ,

I plan to write on the beeyard this weekend. I have been buried lately. We are in the process of searching for a new pastor at my church.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Robert Holcombe said:


> CLONG: Yes, the temperature of 100F was at the top of the hive. The cluster stayed at 95F. It is fundamentally about managing humidity via temperature control. The toiugh day for a colony is when the temperatures are high, say 90, and the relative humidity is high, say 90% the bees do have much margin to work with and drying honey slows up. I visualize uncapped honey being a buffer for high RH as well as my pine-wood boxes. THere in nothign stopping hydroscopic honey from reabsorbing water when uncapped. Propolis appears to resist water permeation but allows water vapor to pass through (Gortex like behavior).
> 
> Bufferring by absorbing and later releasing water has been seen in reports when trying to weigh hives to determine honey consumption - overwhelms the consumption data during some test periods. I am looking to buy quality humidity and temperature sensors at a reasonable price so I can monitor multiple points in a hive. I just might be able to prove to myself that conservation of energy or honey applies all year as implied by Mitchell.
> 
> I find the canvass cloth vey helpful when trying to check or observe in cold or hot weather. It keeps the bees quite and I can peel back selected areas. Also, I can poke a thermometer through it check a nuc cluster in winter.
> 
> Do you perform capped drone removal as a Varroa control mehhod?


Robert, does your canvass cloth hang out past the edge even a little bit, If so wicking could remove moisture as well. Center of the cloth damp,, edge out in the sun and /or wind


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> p.s. I look forward to hearing more about the goings-on in your yard this year when you have time.


Russ,

Seven hives made it to the starting line for this winter. I use Nov 1st as the beginning of the winter season.

I got the equivalent of 8 to 9 4'x8' sheets of 2" Rigid foam insulation given to me recently, already painted on one side. I am going to insulate a few boxes and add them to a couple of hives next spring. I am curious to know if the bees will begin making white wax earlier in the season. Also, I plan to put a frame feeder into one hive stocked with water, and see if that stimulates earlier brood-rearing.

Hive Report
1803 Piper: 3 10F meds. Good population. Only fly on the warmer days. They seem to hunker down in winter. They were spending a lot of time at the top of the stack until last week. With colder weather setting in, they moved down to box #2. Added 2 1-lb sugar blocks on 12/10/19

1811 Paradise: 3 10F meds. Absconded in early Nov. Not a bee to be seen. One frame with a few isolated closed brood cells left. I couldn't see any mite frass, but light was poor. It is sealed up. I intend to make a much closer inspection of the brood frames sometime soon.

1901 Westley: Lively, and still mean. I wanted to put sugar on this hive as well, but they were literally, a pain in the neck. One got under my veil somehow. They didn't get any sugar. They are getting a new matriarch this spring.

1902 Bookworm:3 8F meds. The bees are hunkered down in box #2. They fly much more than their next-door neighbors in Piper.

1903 Mims: 2 10F meds. Started a little later in the season. Really good-looking cluster.

1904 Piper 2: 1 10F med. Baseball-sized cluster at best. The queen was made later in the season. Never has laid a good pattern. I might try R10 insulation on top of R5 just for kicks. I doubt it will help.

1905 Elisha: 2 10f meds. Descended from first swarm, Elijah. Next-door neighbor of Mims, and looks equally populous and healthy.


Oh yeah, Gregv. 1/2" hardware cloth on all entrances! No more dumb winter management. 

At this point, I would call the winter survival rate 5/7. We'll see if that holds until April 1st.


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Russ,
> ..........
> 
> 1901 Westley: Lively, and still mean. I wanted to put sugar on this hive as well, but they were literally, a pain in the neck. One got under my veil somehow. They didn't get any sugar. They are getting a new matriarch this spring.
> .........
> 
> Oh yeah, Gregv. 1/2" hardware cloth on all entrances! No more dumb winter management.
> .


Good deal.

RE:


> 1901 Westley: Lively, and still mean....


What is the history of the 1901?
If the survival history of the line is reasonably long,* I almost want to salvage your queen.*

FYI - my best bees so far are coming from a very mean line; they have mellowed down after 2-3 turn overs (the original traits got watered down, for bad or good).
I personally don't pinch a single queen; mites/winter should do it - not me. 
Not my call to be going around pinching the queens.

If you still mean pinching the meany in spring (if she is still around), consider giving it away instead to some idiot like me.
As of me, I would keep her as an expansion material (keep her in a smallish nuc and keep taking away the daughters; a small nuc will not hurt you - just don't let them grow big).
Lively material is good material.
Sleepy material ends being junk, more often than not.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> I've always felt there is an over-reliance on reductionism in modern science. It is useful in understanding honey bees, but it should never exclude the holistic view.


I'm with you on this CLong. It certainly seems that the more we learn about a particular biological concept, the more we appreciate the incredible complexity and interconnected nature of all the myriad factors that make up life.

As regards EHB's it seems that they benefit from being highly adaptable to a wide-range of variable constraints placed on them and often seem to persist despite our best efforts .



clong said:


> We are in the process of searching for a new pastor at my church.


This sounds like a bi-vocational opportunity for you! I am convinced that when done well and with the right motives, the role of pastor is one of the most difficult and under-appreciated vocations one can take on. I do sincerely appreciate all the pastors I know who so tirelessly serve in this calling.



clong said:


> Seven hives made it to the starting line for this winter. I use Nov 1st as the beginning of the winter season.
> 
> ...
> 
> At this point, I would call the winter survival rate 5/7. We'll see if that holds until April 1st.


I enjoyed reading your update, and I am watching with great anticipation to see how your experiments with additional insulation and in-hive water turn out.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



GregV said:


> Good deal.
> 
> RE:
> What is the history of the 1901?
> If the survival history of the line is reasonably long,* I almost want to salvage your queen.*
> 
> If you still mean pinching the meany in spring (if she is still around), consider giving it away instead to some idiot like me.
> As of me, I would keep her as an expansion material (keep her in a smallish nuc and keep taking away the daughters; a small nuc will not hurt you - just don't let them grow big).
> Lively material is good material.
> Sleepy material ends being junk, more often than not.


Gregv,

"1. 1901 Westley was a nice-looking swarm that had evaporated to about ¼ its original size by the time my trainee and I got there. It was queenless. When I stored them at my house, they went through one very cold night in the trap. When I took a peek, they looked terrible. My wife invited them into our sunroom, where it took 24 hours for them to come back to life. I think she may have slipped in a large chocolate-covered pill. I added some eggs from Piper, and shook in additional bees, and installed them into a four frame nuc. The queen cells have been broken down now. No sign of a queen at the last inspection."

Westley has a daughter queen from Piper. Made in April,2019. Piper is proven survivor stock. She descends from a cutout done from an abandoned house 10-15 years ago. I have been waiting patiently for her to start laying some "nice" bees, but I haven't seen any yet.

I will seriously think about taking your advice, and see if this queen produces in the spring. If the hive survives, and makes 100# of honey, I think I can overlook a little attitude problem.  Then, I'll move her to a nuc like you suggested.

Thanks.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Chicken Feeder Report: 01/04/2020








There have been a lot bees congregating around the chicken feeder over the last week or so. Yesterday there were 50 bees at any given time. The beeyard is about 75 yards away. The two swarms caught early last spring, 1901 and 1902 were flying a bit, but not returning with any pollen. Same with Piper.








The two smaller hives that were created later in the season, 1903 and 1905, were both hitting the chicken feeder. They were bringing in plenty of pale tan stuff in their baskets. I guess they are desperate. Perhaps with their later starts, they didn't collect enough pollen. I got some pollen substitute and lured them away from the chicken feeder. If they are going to eat artificial pollen, I would rather they gather quality stuff over chicken feed.


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Chris, I am glad to hear you put out sub for the bees. Don in Montpelier and I have seen the bees just tearing up the sub we have been putting out. These past few weeks of 50°+ days have really got the girls going. Just hope they are ready for the cold which is bound to come.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



JWPalmer said:


> Chris, I am glad to hear you put out sub for the bees. Don in Montpelier and I have seen the bees just tearing up the sub we have been putting out. These past few weeks of 50°+ days have really got the girls going. Just hope they are ready for the cold which is bound to come.


JW,

Thanks for the encouragement. I don't really don't like to feed the bees, but I do give them sugar. This is the first time using the faux pollen.
When I have more hives and more courage, I'll let them fend for themselves 100%

I used Ultra Bee by the way. It says it is 58% crude protein. But how is it made? What exactly is it?


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

The list of ingredients simply states plant based proteins. I suspect it is brewers yeast and soy flour like many others with vitamins and minerals added. At least it is not dried and ground up chicken blood and guts like the Purina stuff that came out a few years ago.


----------



## tpope

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



JWPalmer said:


> At least it is not dried and ground up chicken blood and guts like the Purina stuff that came out a few years ago.


Could this be the cause of fowl brood??? :lookout:


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



tpope said:


> Could this be the cause of fowl brood??? :lookout:


Good one. :applause:


----------



## AR1

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



JWPalmer said:


> Chris, I am glad to hear you put out sub for the bees. Don in Montpelier and I have seen the bees just tearing up the sub we have been putting out. These past few weeks of 50°+ days have really got the girls going. Just hope they are ready for the cold which is bound to come.


You are farther south than me. Is it time to be encouraging brood? I can't imagine pushing brooding here until at least the end of February here (west of Chicago).

What's your thinking on winter brood? My thought is that it simply encourages mites.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



AR1 said:


> You are farther south than me. Is it time to be encouraging brood? I can't imagine pushing brooding here until at least the end of February here (west of Chicago).
> 
> What's your thinking on winter brood? My thought is that it simply encourages mites.


My thinking is some of the bees are looking for pollen, so perhaps those hives need it. Maybe they are just storing it up for February/March.

I'm not too worried about mites, but if those hives struggle with mites this spring, I will reconsider feeding pollen sub.

I would like to hear what others think.


----------



## tpope

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

My bees have access to purple dead nettle, dandelion and mahonia right now. I am open feeding a commercial pollen substitute also. They are using the sub very well and I expect them to continue to use it until the red maples bloom. I know from the hives I checked Saturday that some are in need of pollen. I hesitate to provide any in patty form due to my past experiences with small hive beetles.


----------



## GregB

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



JWPalmer said:


> The list of ingredients simply states plant based proteins. I suspect it is brewers yeast ........


Here is an episode from a channel I watch.
The guy is very happy with the result of brewer's yeast supplement (added directly to liquid sugar feed).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GpzlQunR3g&t=70s
How he feeds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeB6hE7hP_Y


----------



## AR1

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Can you feed it from outside the hive? Maybe silly question, but I have no experience with feeding patty.


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

I have never fed patty outside of a hive, other than dried up scraps which I just leave on the top of the hive. It is too early here to worry about SHB and mites are a non issue until later as the hives are essentially mite free at this point. As far as timing, in Va and points south, brood production starts in earnest in early Jan. I want as many bees as possible by mid March to take advantage of the very short nectar flow which starts mid April and is D-O-N -E by mid June.


----------



## tpope

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



JWPalmer said:


> I have never fed patty outside of a hive, other than dried up scraps which I just leave on the top of the hive. It is too early here to worry about SHB and mites are a non issue until later as the hives are essentially mite free at this point. As far as timing, in Va and points south, brood production starts in earnest in early Jan. I want as many bees as possible by mid March to take advantage of the very short nectar flow which starts mid April and is D-O-N -E by mid June.


I hope that the folks that are jealous of our start date take note of the DONE date... It starts quick and ends soon. All too brief... One must be poised to take advantage of the flow. Then you ask yourself if feeding into the fall is your form of treatment free. Just educating here folks...


----------



## tpope

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



JWPalmer said:


> I have never fed patty outside of a hive, other than dried up scraps which I just leave on the top of the hive. It is too early here to worry about SHB and mites are a non issue until later as the hives are essentially mite free at this point. As far as timing, in Va and points south, brood production starts in earnest in early Jan. I want as many bees as possible by mid March to take advantage of the very short nectar flow which starts mid April and is D-O-N -E by mid June.


Do you not have small hive beetle problems this time of year??? I have them present in my overwintered colonies. They are such a problem later in the year that I have not attempted feeding in hive pollen to hives during buildup. Just asking...


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

I have a few. For me, a problem is more than 20 in the hive. Occasionally I will get that many. When the bees cluster on the cold nights, the beetles are literally left out in the cold and die. I find them on my inserts when I clean them.

I have watch carefully when I feed patties to nucs after June. 0 to OMG in about a week. During the winter, not really an issue.


----------



## AR1

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



tpope said:


> Do you not have small hive beetle problems this time of year??? I have them present in my overwintered colonies. They are such a problem later in the year that I have not attempted feeding in hive pollen to hives during buildup. Just asking...


According to the internet, the adult SHBs lay eggs which hatch out in just 2-3 days, so it takes hardly any time for patty to get infected. You could almost use it as a bait, if you didn't have many hives to deal with. Put it in and take it out within 2 days. That would get old fast if you had more than a couple of hives though.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> When I have more hives and more courage, I'll let them fend for themselves 100%


CLong:

My how I identify with this- best of success to you with your overwintering efforts.

I always enjoy your posts and look forward to seeing how the upcoming season shapes-up for you.

Russ


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Chicken Feeder Report: 01/04/2020


Chicken Feeder Report: 01/15/20
A few bees were still visiting the chicken feeder. Most have moved on to the pollen sub.









January 10th-12th the bees were congregating at the pollen feeder by the hundreds. Formerly, only two of the hives were hitting the feeder, but word got out, so all 5 hives were going after it. They have taken about 2 pounds of pollen sub so far. I think today and tomorrow will be the last day before winter finally arrives later this week. All the hives look moderate to strong. I did a quick deep dive into Bookworm 1902. There was a small circle of open brood, along with the queen.

In the process of taking pictures and video, I learned something new. The bees were lurching left and right, bouncing off my hand, and some would hover an inch or two above. One bee produces quite a downrush of wind. It is an eerie feeling. If you could get 20 or 30 bees to hover in tandem, you would be able to dry your hands. Call it a Dyson of bees.

It was also interesting to note that there were dozens of bees perched on whatever was available, packing their pollen baskets. They would even land on an outstretched hand to stow their cargo.


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



> They would even land on an outstretched hand to stow their cargo.


Ha, I do the same thing. So cool to let the bees land on you with absolutely no fear of getting stung.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> I think today and tomorrow will be the last day before winter finally arrives later this week.


Enjoyed your post, CLong. Glad to hear that everything is in good shape in your yard. We're in the same boat here in Western Kentucky- gearing up for only our second bout of nighttime lows in the teens.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> Enjoyed your post, CLong. Glad to hear that everything is in good shape in your yard. We're in the same boat here in Western Kentucky- gearing up for only our second bout of nighttime lows in the teens.


Russ,

Thanks again for the encouragement.

I have one 2 frame medium hive that is practically boiling with bees. I am wondering if the protracted warm weather leads to more swarms (earlier buildup), or less (due to starvation)? Should we look for swarms earlier this year?

My traps are going to be placed by the beginning of March.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Should we look for swarms earlier this year?


Good question, CLong. I don't know, but if I were a betting man I'd expect swarms earlier this year.

Just based on early phenological clues, we are approximately 3 weeks ahead of where we were this time last year, at least in my locale.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> Good question, CLong. I don't know, but if I were a betting man I'd expect swarms earlier this year.
> 
> Just based on early phenological clues, we are approximately 3 weeks ahead of where we were this time last year, at least in my locale.


Wow 3 weeks early that "could" be nice 3 more weeks for the swarm to grow. Also likely the parent hive swarms a second time.
Unless it is your hive..


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Chris, I would expect swarms here early too. Last year was also a bit early as several of my hives swarmed right around April 15th, typically the beginning of our normal swarm season. I think it would be prudent to have your traps out by mid to late March.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



JWPalmer said:


> Chris, I would expect swarms here early too. Last year was also a bit early as several of my hives swarmed right around April 15th, typically the beginning of our normal swarm season. I think it would be prudent to have your traps out by mid to late March.


JW,

Agreed. Last year I picked up a swarm hanging on a flowering redbud, March 31st.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Feb 3rd, 2020:

The once and mighty Piper is on the way out. Probably about 500 bees. There were a couple of circles of abandoned brood, but no fresh eggs or larvae. The queen is still there. I've shrunk the hive down to 1/2 of a medium with a rigid foam board providing one wall. I've wondered whether I should borrow a frame of bees from a stronger hive to see if I could save it, but I'm not sure it is worth it.

Meanwhile, the other hives are doing pretty good probably rating 4-8 on a 1-10 scale. Elisha is the strongest. I've already checkerboarded two mediums on top of the two boxes she started with. Westley is a daughter to Piper, so I that line still survives.

The bees started to ignore the pollen sub yesterday. They've found their own yellow pollen to bring in. No more yellow ghost bees.

So it looks like I'm 4/7 for this winter.


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Normally I would say let it go, but Piper might be worth saving IF you can spare the brood and bees from another hive or two. 500 bees, basically less than a cup, is not going to make it and is not enough bees to raise brood in cool weather. You could try putting Piper on top of one of the other hives with a qe in between if bees are in short supply.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



JWPalmer said:


> Normally I would say let it go, but Piper might be worth saving IF you can spare the brood and bees from another hive or two.


CLong:

Good update. I am reminded of some advice you gave me this time last year with a very small but queen-right cluster, who with some help made it through last season just fine. So I am with JW in saying that in my very limited experience Piper might be a worthwhile investment of your time and some nurse bees.

How is Westley faring in comparison to Elisha? I seem to recall you considered re-queening this colony last year?


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> How is Westley faring in comparison to Elisha? I seem to recall you considered re-queening this colony last year?


Russ,

Sorry to be so slow getting back to your question. It is hard for me to compare Westley vs. Elisha. Westley has traffic on warm days, but not as much as Elisha. Elisha was looking so populous, I checkerboarded already. Usually I would wait until mid-Feb with warm days predicted for the following week. Westley is in 3 boxes, so it is harder to see down into the lower boxes. My guess is Elisha will be the 100-lb hive, assuming good weather during the flow.


Meanwhile, last Saturday I took a look into the top of Piper. 150 bees were dancing right at the top of the frame. Sunday morning I looked in and they were dead - "mostly", at least. I had prepared a quiet box with a microwavable heat pack in the bottom to facilitate the transfer of a frame or two of bees into Piper. I picked up the clump of bees, and placed them into the box on top of the heat pack and brought them into the house to see what would happen. Again, no chocolate pill. 







They slowly came back to life. They are now clustered at the top of the box. A honey frame with some open cells has been added, but I don't if the bees have moved onto it yet. I fear that the hypothermia may have affected the queen. Or that I may have squished her during the move. In any case, I am thinking of grabbing a frame of bees (likely tomorrow), and putting them and the donated bees back into their original box to see what happens. I don't really think this will work, but I am curious. 

Does heat therapy qualify as a treatment?


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Does heat therapy qualify as a treatment?
> 
> View attachment 53493


CLong:

It is now my turn to apologize for the delay in reply. In short, I won't lie that I am jealous of your 'quiet box'. Did you build that yourself?

I am pulling for Piper to pull through... 

FWIW I am always confused by what qualifies as 'treatment'. I suppose I take solace in the idea that I ultimately get to decide what I am willing to do to help augment my bees' survival.

Do keep us posted on how your Piper intervention turns out- I am reminded of the idea of 'compensation' that was addressed in the recent National Honey Show videos- specifically that bees can do amazing things when confronted with a battle for survival.

I can see the light at the end of the tunnel regarding Winter and it sounds like you are turning the corner in Richmond too...


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> CLong:
> 
> It is now my turn to apologize for the delay in reply. In short, I won't lie that I am jealous of your 'quiet box'. Did you build that yourself?


Please don't lie.  Yes, I built it. I have extra pieces to build another one, one of these days...



Litsinger said:


> I am pulling for Piper to pull through...
> 
> FWIW I am always confused by what qualifies as 'treatment'. I suppose I take solace in the idea that I ultimately get to decide what I am willing to do to help augment my bees' survival.
> 
> Do keep us posted on how your Piper intervention turns out- I am reminded of the idea of 'compensation' that was addressed in the recent National Honey Show videos- specifically that bees can do amazing things when confronted with a battle for survival.
> 
> I can see the light at the end of the tunnel regarding Winter and it sounds like you are turning the corner in Richmond too...


Thanks for pulling for Piper.

I'm not really conflicted about the heat "treatment". I was just curious to see if the bees could recover, especially the queen. I installed her today along with a frame of bees and brood from Elisha. The Elisha bees balled her. I pushed the antagonistic bees away, and then drenched the queen in honey. Hopefully they will decide she smells better after licking her clean. I'll check in a week or so and see if the queen still lives.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Please don't lie.  Yes, I built it. I have extra pieces to build another one, one of these days...


I am serious- with as many 'queen adventures' that I've had in the past two years, I am beginning to second-guess the wisdom of setting frames on the ground during inspections. The queen is not 'supposed' to be on the outside frames, and yet I have had a queen outside the hive once each year. I am afraid I won't be so fortunate next time. Until I can build something, I suppose I will have to make due with a nuc box.



clong said:


> I'm not really conflicted about the heat "treatment". I was just curious to see if the bees could recover, especially the queen. I installed her today along with a frame of bees and brood from Elisha. The Elisha bees balled her. I pushed the antagonistic bees away, and then drenched the queen in honey. Hopefully they will decide she smells better after licking her clean. I'll check in a week or so and see if the queen still lives.


I am going to wait with baited breath to see how this turns out- please do keep us posted.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> Until I can build something, I suppose I will have to make due with a nuc box.


Russ, if you like, I'll post pictures of the quiet box. I think I'm going to build a second one, so I can take a few pictures as its going together. On this second one, I plan to include a plexiglass window underneath the drape.



Litsinger said:


> I am going to wait with baited breath to see how this turns out- please do keep us posted.


Today, it was 60F, so I took a look into the hive and found Piper was alive and well. I 'll include a brief videos of the before and after.

Piper frozen: [video]https://www.dropbox.com/s/nytw0rs4dqj8fh3/IMG_6018.MOV?dl=0[/video]

Piper thawed: [video]https://www.dropbox.com/s/637auj55c70163n/IMG_6107.MOV?dl=0[/video]

It remains to be seen whether this queen will still be productive. I'll check for eggs on the first warm day near the end of the month.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Russ, if you like, I'll post pictures of the quiet box. I think I'm going to build a second one, so I can take a few pictures as its going together. On this second one, I plan to include a plexiglass window underneath the drape.


CLong: Please do! Even better yet (and since your upgrading and won't be needing your old one), how about you ship it to your buddy from Western Kentucky .



clong said:


> Today, it was 60F, so I took a look into the hive and found Piper was alive and well. I 'll include a brief videos of the before and after.


Those videos were amazing- quite a turn-around. Do you expect you'll give them a few more shakes of nurse bees such that there is enough critical mass to cover brood?

Keep up the good work- enjoying reading how things are getting on.

Russ


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> CLong: Please do! Even better yet (and since your upgrading and won't be needing your old one), how about you ship it to your buddy from Western Kentucky .
> 
> 
> 
> Those videos were amazing- quite a turn-around. Do you expect you'll give them a few more shakes of nurse bees such that there is enough critical mass to cover brood?
> 
> Keep up the good work- enjoying reading how things are getting on.
> 
> Russ


Russ,

He, he. The second quiet box is so that I'll have a bit of redundant redundancy, and I'll be able to neatly transport 10 frames of bees at a time. Besides, the one in the picture got invaded by wax moths. It's pretty chewed up on the inside. You deserve better. 

Yeah, seeing her flitting around was encouraging. I don't know if I'll add more bees. I am inclined to see how it goes.

I put in a frame that was about 10% covered in brood, so I am hoping that will give the bees a head start. I also sprinkled dry pollen sub into a couple dozen cells. In the next 7-10 days, I'll reassess. My goal is for Piper is to produce enough eggs so I can make some daughter queens from her.


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> My goal is for Piper is to produce enough eggs so I can make some daughter queens from her.


Your goal ought to be to restore Piper to it's former status. A frame or two of brood and a shake or two of bees and voila, a strong hive once again.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



JWPalmer said:


> Your goal ought to be to restore Piper to it's former status. A frame or two of brood and a shake or two of bees and voila, a strong hive once again.


JW,

Thanks for the advice. I'll take it. I just don't want to jeopardize the honey-making this spring. I'll try to get a few bees from the other hives. The thing I'm reluctant to do is to invest too much, and find out Piper is damaged and can't lay a good pattern any more.


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

That is always a possibility. One of the fun things about being a hobby beekeeper is that we can try rescuing a hive the commercial beek just is not going to waste the time with. Last year I had an overwintered nuc that went LW on me. Took two attempts at introducing queen cells with frames of brood to correct and now that hive has the most brood coming out of this winter than any other. Roll the dice, just don't bet the farm.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Another hive is gone. Two of my losses this year were due to dwindling populations. One looked like mite stress, the other I don't know. The latest one was starvation. There were plenty of bees, but not a drop of honey left. They had sugar up top, but clearly, that was not enough. I think I should add Russ' title "bungling", to my thread, along with bumbling and bone-headed. If there is a way to kill bees, I will find it. Even if I excuse the two hives lost early this winter, I am 2/5. Not a good year.

On a brighter note, my mentee of the last two years has his bees cranking right now. Bursting with bees. Two of the hives have gone through two winters. The third was a captured swarm from one of hives. That makes 5/5 over the last two years. He insulates and has no top vent. He fed his bees heavily the first year, and did the same last year. Too much perhaps. But his bees didn't starve. We inspected his hives yesterday. The interesting thing is, one of the hives had a couple of frames of plastic foundation with new white wax in the top box. One of the frames was 25% capped. I don't know if that is unusual, but I've never seen it that early. 

Could the capped frame be maple honey?


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Another hive is gone. Two of my losses this year were due to dwindling populations. One looked like mite stress, the other I don't know. The latest one was starvation. There were plenty of bees, but not a drop of honey left. They had sugar up top, but clearly, that was not enough. I think I should add Russ' title "bungling", to my thread, along with bumbling and bone-headed. If there is a way to kill bees, I will find it. Even if I excuse the two hives lost early this winter, I am 2/5. Not a good year.
> 
> On a brighter note, my mentee of the last two years has his bees cranking right now. Bursting with bees. Two of the hives have gone through two winters. The third was a captured swarm from one of hives. That makes 5/5 over the last two years. He insulates and has no top vent. He fed his bees heavily the first year, and did the same last year. Too much perhaps. But his bees didn't starve. We inspected his hives yesterday. The interesting thing is, one of the hives had a couple of frames of plastic foundation with new white wax in the top box. One of the frames was 25% capped. I don't know if that is unusual, but I've never seen it that early.
> 
> Could the capped frame be maple honey?


Sure it could be, or someone is open feeding, or there is a dead out they found in a 2 mile radius, they may have moved stores from lower area to expand the brood nest as well.
GG


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Gray Goose said:


> Sure it could be, or someone is open feeding, or there is a dead out they found in a 2 mile radius, they may have moved stores from lower area to expand the brood nest as well.
> GG


GG,

Thanks for that insight. The brood box still had 30% capped honey, so the bees moving stores makes perfect sense.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> GG,
> 
> Thanks for that insight. The brood box still had 30% capped honey, so the bees moving stores makes perfect sense.


If they are moving and capping , it is time to add a super of comb if you have it. Ideally they move it into a super, unless it was from Syrup 

If making swarm prevention Splits, pull some full frames of stores to open the brood nest a bit more. 

Could even pull and refrigerate or freeze, for a few months. Add to a late captured swarm or a hive that seem to be struggling to get enough stored for winter. I had 30 frames deep last year I eventually added to all of it to 5X5 NUCs when I put them in 10X10 for winter.


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Chris, I put supers on some of the stronger hives last weekend. I doubt much is happening there yet, but they had started drawing some burr comb so I knew it was time. Most of the hives have new nectar that I am sure is not moved stores.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

JW,

How do you determine whether the nectar is moved, versus incoming? Do you check to see if the nectar drips out easily?

In this case cited above, the nectar was very light-colored. It looked like sugar syrup. On the other hand, the incoming bees did have the loaded-down look.

I assumed that since the brood chamber was so glutted with capped syrup, the bees moving it up made good sense. Maybe it's both?


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Very watery and appearing in lower comb that had prevoiusly been empty. Upper frames all still capped.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



JWPalmer said:


> Very watery and appearing in lower comb that had prevoiusly been empty. Upper frames all still capped.


Got it. Thanks.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

CLong:

Enjoyed reading your update- sorry to hear about the late fail.

How is 'Piper' holding up? Did this colony pull through after your intervention?


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> CLong:
> 
> Enjoyed reading your update- sorry to hear about the late fail.
> 
> How is 'Piper' holding up? Did this colony pull through after your intervention?


Russ,

No, it fizzled. I only gave it one full frame of bees, plus another shake of nurse bees into a 5-frame insulated nuc. It wasn't enough. If I had more hives to work with, I would have given it more bees.

I tried not feeding the strongish hives last fall, but that was clearly a mistake. If a hive is light next fall it will get fed, until I've got more stock to work with.

I suspect the frequent warm-ups this winter led the hives with marginal stores to consume more honey than usual.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> If I had more hives to work with, I would have given it more bees.
> 
> ...
> 
> If a hive is light next fall it will get fed, until I've got more stock to work with.


CLong:

Sorry to hear that 'Piper' didn't make it through. I can certainly understand and appreciate the reality of how one's management decisions can at least in part be constrained by the resources on-hand. It is certainly easier to experiment and/or gamble when you have more than enough (bees, comb, equipment, time, etc.) to go around.

Here's hoping that your remaining colonies do well for you this year and that you have a great swarm trapping season. Any interest in your traps in Richmond yet?


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Russ,

Yes. Trap #1 had 4-10 scout bees all over it yesterday. It was 70F and sunny. Trap #2 had 1-2.

At another location, I was cleaning out and refreshing the trap, and a scout started circling around right as I put in the LG oil and Swarm Commander. The same thing happened last year. This trap has caught 2 years running.

Traps #5-10 will be set up by the middle of next week, Lord willing.

How about you? How many traps are you putting out? Will you use swarms to create new hives, or to boost current ones?


----------



## BigBlackBirds

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> Yes. Trap #1 had 4-10 scout bees all over it yesterday. It was 70F and sunny. Trap #2 had 1-2.
> 
> At another location, I was cleaning out and refreshing the trap, and a scout started circling around right as I put in the LG oil and Swarm Commander. The same thing happened last year. This trap has caught 2 years running.
> 
> Traps #5-10 will be set up by the middle of next week, Lord willing.
> 
> How about you? How many traps are you putting out? Will you use swarms to create new hives, or to boost current ones?



Sunny and 70, you're killing me. Was in the upper 50's on Sunday and thought that was nice but didn't really last. Super windy and cloudy yesterday. Rain overnight and cool 40 today. It'll be 7-8 weeks here before we get into "bee spring"


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



BigBlackBirds said:


> Sunny and 70, you're killing me. Was in the upper 50's on Sunday and thought that was nice but didn't really last. Super windy and cloudy yesterday. Rain overnight and cool 40 today. It'll be 7-8 weeks here before we get into "bee spring"


B3,

I am really sorry. I was born in Michigan, so I understand a bit. My Mom used to call it "darkest Michigan".

However, I envy the almost continual flow you guys enjoy from bee spring to bee fall. In Virginia, we get 6-8 weeks of nothing. 1/3 the time we don't even get an appreciable fall flow.

Hopefully, you'll make up for the later start, with 5 supers on each hive.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> How about you? How many traps are you putting out? Will you use swarms to create new hives, or to boost current ones?


CLong:

Glad you have scouts afoot- not much action at the swarm traps yet, but I expect we are a couple weeks behind you all.

I currently have twelve traps out, and should I hive any swarms, I will likely utilize them to boost my hive count. We'll see...

We do have some drones-in-residence now and lots of capped drone brood so things are starting to move along.

Based on bloom cues, we are about 3 weeks ahead of last year- extending that to swarms, that would suggest first swarms in early April here.

As you wished me last year, I sincerely hope you end up with a swarm for every hive.

Russ


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Chis, glad to hear you have scouting activity. Getting mine ready to put out this weekend. Set up one with all drawn comb in the bee yard this evening. The trap I have at work will get baited tomorrow.


----------



## BigBlackBirds

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> B3,
> 
> I am really sorry. I was born in Michigan, so I understand a bit. My Mom used to call it "darkest Michigan".
> 
> However, I envy the almost continual flow you guys enjoy from bee spring to bee fall. In Virginia, we get 6-8 weeks of nothing. 1/3 the time we don't even get an appreciable fall flow.
> 
> Hopefully, you'll make up for the later start, with 5 supers on each hive.


Thanks. Yes we do have a couple things going for us. More pollination is available than most areas of the country so that can be helpful for those involved. And we do have relatively continuous flows from May into mid June and then early July into Late August and then early September until the freezes that both provide a solid honey crop and/or fall stores. Not big crops of western states by any stretch and the per colony average has been trending downward for 40 years due to changes in farm practices, increase in population and some state practices regarding control of invasive species but overall perhaps better than many places.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

4/15/20 Hive Report

1903 Mims: This hive was building comb off the glass in March, so I took that as a hint to add room. I checkerboarded rather early. The population doesn't appear to building that quickly, but more quickly than 1905

1905 Elisha: Plodding along. I am hoping to see it boom one day. I have a Broodminder scale and temp/humidity sensor on this one. I can see that it maintaining low-to-mid 90s above box #3. Last time I inspected, it was brooding up, but not using the 3 frames to the left (North side) of the box. The weight of the hive is fluctuating up and down several pounds. I attribute this to frequent cold snaps at night, coupled with the increasing shade as the trees leaf out. It just isn't warm enough yet.

2001 ??: A baseball-sized swarm that was part of a larger swarm containing 3 queens. This queen had a well-worn red dot. It was installed in a well-insulated 5-frame nuc to help it get through several more cold nights near freezing.

2002 Corona: This one is interesting. It was "captured" on 4/9. It moved into an empty hive consisting of 2 8-frame mediums. The bees completely filled the two boxes. The bottom box had 8 combs; the top had two. Apparently, the bees though it was big enough. 6 empty frames were added the next day. What was curious was how eerily still the bees were. Virtually no movement, even with daytime temps approaching 70F. Over the next couple days, I didn't see any bees carrying pollen in.

I inspected the hive on on 4/12. The bees were busy at the entrance, but they were still hardly moving. Even on the frames in the lower box. The other thing that was curious was they hadn't drawn out any new comb. Nada. I found the queen and marked her. She was blonde in color. The lightest queen I've ever seen.

I added a new box on the bottom of the hive, and put on a jar of sugar water. Late that day, I started seeing pollen come in, and the bees on the top of the hive were a little more lively.
The only thing I can figure is the bees had consumed all of their honey reserve. Perhaps they had a long bivouac, or absconded a previous location? Has anyone ever seen this sort of listless behavior in a swarm? 

Just brought home a bait hive swarm yesterday for Hive# 2003
----------------------


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> 4/15/20 Hive Report


clong:

Good update- and it sounds like you are making good progress at getting your apiary numbers back in shape.

I took a half-hearted run at your question about the Corona swarm over on the Virginia swarm page- I do hope that our experienced bee gurus have some good advice for you.

Best of success to you this year!

Russ


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> clong:
> 
> I took a half-hearted run at your question about the Corona swarm over on the Virginia swarm page-
> 
> Russ


Russ,

Thanks for the reply on the lethargic swarm. They are mostly back to normal behavior, though I found a couple of frames today that were still showing that sleepy behavior.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> They are mostly back to normal behavior, though I found a couple of frames today that were still showing that sleepy behavior.


clong:

I'll be interested to see how this swarm develops over the year- is this lethargy any indication (good or bad) of colony decision making?


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> clong:
> 
> I'll be interested to see how this swarm develops over the year- is this lethargy any indication (good or bad) of colony decision making?


Yesterday, I peeked again. They had finally drawn an almost complete frame of white wax. The queen was on this frame. There were still some sleepy bees on the side of the box away from the queen. Perhaps the non-essential bees (by decree of the queen) are quarantining themselves, conserving energy. Time will tell.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Time will tell.


An axiom I find often used in beekeeping circles. Here's hoping you hive several more swarms yet this year.

Russ


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> An axiom I find often used in beekeeping circles. Here's hoping you hive several more swarms yet this year.
> 
> Russ


Russ,

Thanks for the good wishes. Another 3 lb swarm captured on 4/19, and moved to the beeyard the same night. This brings the hive count to 6.

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?321131-Virginia&p=1796637#post1796637

Also, Yesterday there were bees crash-landing by the dozen in the beeyard. Obviously, too loaded down to stick the landing. Most opt to walk up the bricks to the entrance. I think the tulip poplars are blooming.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> This brings the hive count to 6.


clong:

I apologize for my delay in reply- between work and lots of activity in the bee yard, I have been away from the computer.

Hopefully all 6 of these colonies prove to be indestructible and serve as a good foundation for your apiary.

I imagine you might have caught another swarm or two by now?


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> clong:
> 
> I apologize for my delay in reply- between work and lots of activity in the bee yard, I have been away from the computer.
> 
> Hopefully all 6 of these colonies prove to be indestructible and serve as a good foundation for your apiary.
> 
> I imagine you might have caught another swarm or two by now?


Russ,

No more catches. Cooler weather has hindered the scouting. Though the bees can fly at 44-53F, I don't often see scouts until it is 60F and sunny. Once the temp hits the high 60s, they'll show up even if it is cloudy.

Two traps did see some scouting activity yesterday afternoon.

I guess I may have to get one of those Warre swarm generators.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Here are a couple pictures of the insulated boxes I’ll be using this year. They still need to be painted.
> 
> View attachment 45995
> 
> View attachment 45997
> 
> 
> I am moving to permanently insulated boxes for 3 reasons:
> 1.	*Better winter survival.* I’ve seen the difference myself, along with some anecdotal evidence.
> 2.	*Better health for the bees.* I haven’t seen any formal proof of this, but I have my suspicions.
> 3.	*Better honey production.* There is anecdotal evidence of this, and research backs it up. See Derek Mitchell’s latest paper:
> https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2018.0879?mc_cid=5782b69aa0&mc_eid=8425a04372
> 
> I am currently using some polystyrene boxes, but I am in favor of boxes like those above for the following reasons:
> 1.	Wood interior (scored) allows for bees to create propolis “envelope”.
> 2.	Stronger hive bodies. My worry has been poly boxes with several full honey supers above might crush.
> 3.	Ability to retro-fit existing equipment.
> 4.	Insulation can be easily removed or replaced.
> 
> The materials are ¾” hive body, 1” rigid foam insulation, ¾” 1x6 cut into 1 ¾” strips. The only thing holding the cleat on is 2 screws. I question whether the two screws will be enough to hold a full super of honey. Any pointers on how to improve the design would be appreciated
> 
> This design was borrowed from Bob Stewart as seen in the following link:
> 
> http://www.stewartfarm.org/docs/Stewart%20Farm%20Year%20Round%20Insulation%20System%20for%20Bee%20Hives.pdf


old thread I know but how did these work out, stiil using the same any improvements?


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> I guess I may have to get one of those Warre swarm generators.


clong:

You are welcome to one- free for the taking.

Only catch is that you have to pick it up in Western Kentucky- I might even throw in the bees inside!


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> clong:
> 
> You are welcome to one- free for the taking.
> 
> Only catch is that you have to pick it up in Western Kentucky- I might even throw in the bees inside!


Hi Russ,
So the Idea of the Warres being a "swarm source" had merit. Glad you have all the bees you need.
You may need to get some of those white card board NUC boxes and start taking orders.
Sell 3 or 4 a year if you find your self with too many.
IF the stock is good, Ideally you sell some what Cheap like 100$ and "Local" Next Idea being saturate the area around you with "Drone" mothers, of your choosing.. The bees do swarm , and supersede, so think long term open breading
If a neighbor is on the hunt for bees and is bound to buy and bring in stock... you have value in keeping the local stock somewhat pure, I understand the replies that "they are Mutts" But they are adapted survivor mutts. 

May also be a club near you, maybe offer some "local Feral" stock there. could even barter.... 

Full up on bees by may 15th is an easier problem than , Rats I am down 8 hives and need to scramble to do some splits.

Seen my first Dandelions this week so I am hoping we can some swarm activity here soon, Just not mine.....

Maybe I make a run down there to "relieve you" of too many hives. 

GG


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Gray Goose said:


> old thread I know but how did these work out, stiil using the same any improvements?


Gray Goose,

They insulation works as advertised, though they still leak. Easy to see with a thermal camera. The best solution is to cut big sheets of foam, and fit them around all the boxes on the hive - no air leaks. However, I want them year-round, and don't want to have do all the fiddly stuff. One and done. I've observed that some of the hyper-insulated hives are a little slower getting to work when there is a rapid AM warmup, but there is also a lot more traffic in marginal temps than with the uninsulated boxes. 

I'll go and take some pictures of the wear and tear. It isn't too bad. The foam is holding up better than I thought it would. One thing I've found is that you have to make bespoke excluders. The 3/4 pieces don't protect the foam, so the bees like to chew off some of the foam around the entrance. I've made some excluders that are 1 1/2" wide by 3/4" high. Only one 3/8" x 4-5" entrance.

About improvements, I came into 6 sheets of 2" foam (FREE!), so now I am installing that on the latest set of boxes. I would rather have everything identically sized, but I am incapable of turning down free materials. I had to hunt up 4" screws to attach the foam. I now drive the screws through the cleats and foam into the end wall of the boxes, per your suggestion. It works great.


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> clong:
> 
> You are welcome to one- free for the taking.
> 
> Only catch is that you have to pick it up in Western Kentucky- I might even throw in the bees inside!


Russ,

You don't know how tempting that is. At a time like this, it would be wonderful to go on a road trip. And free bees! Thanks for the offer.

Right now, our idea of an exciting family outing is to take our trash to the dump!


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Gray Goose,
> 
> They insulation works as advertised, though they still leak. Easy to see with a thermal camera. The best solution is to cut big sheets of foam, and fit them around all the boxes on the hive - no air leaks. However, I want them year-round, and don't want to have do all the fiddly stuff. One and done. I've observed that some of the hyper-insulated hives are a little slower getting to work when there is a rapid AM warmup, but there is also a lot more traffic in marginal temps than with the uninsulated boxes.
> 
> I'll go and take some pictures of the wear and tear. It isn't too bad. The foam is holding up better than I thought it would. One thing I've found is that you have to make bespoke excluders. The 3/4 pieces don't protect the foam, so the bees like to chew off some of the foam around the entrance. I've made some excluders that are 1 1/2" wide by 3/4" high. Only one 3/8" x 4-5" entrance.
> 
> About improvements, I came into 6 sheets of 2" foam (FREE!), so now I am installing that on the latest set of boxes. I would rather have everything identically sized, but I am incapable of turning down free materials. I had to hunt up 4" screws to attach the foam. I now drive the screws through the cleats and foam into the end wall of the boxes, per your suggestion. It works great.


I have a "well insulated" hive and notice the same thing, more bees flying when cooler.
I have not noticed the slower AM start up to cause less honey.
I did want to steel some brood lately, and was disappointed to have a fail,, the frames in the insulated hive had brood end bar to end bar and the cluster in the NUC was not going to cover it all, only draw back I have seen, as well I may need to delay splits until warmer for the same reason.

6 sheets luck you , Ya free is too good to pass up.

I have ripped enough gloves on screws poking threw to either go to the end or get the right length.

Sounds like good results.

What about a 3 side + top box that would slid on (from the back), the front could use the AM sun and the rest has the extra insulation. 2x2 framing, exterior to help hold it together.

thanks for the update
GG


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Gray Goose said:


> You may need to get some of those white card board NUC boxes and start taking orders.
> Sell 3 or 4 a year if you find your self with too many.


GG:

As always you have good ideas- As I've said before, i appreciate you 'think outside the box' guys and after reading about what Riverderwent is doing and seeing a Facebook post about selling swarm stock, I can see how this idea might have real merit. That said, I have learned not to take too much for granted in beekeeping.

Here's hoping your season gets kicked off in earnest soon and that you have an exceptionally good year.

I am always grateful for your help and input- have a great day.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Right now, our idea of an exciting family outing is to take our trash to the dump!


My how we understand this! My kids are keenly interested to see what their public school friends think of homeschooling, so they can now commiserate on the ills of learning at home .

Glad to hear you keep plugging-away. I imagine your CB'd colonies are really booming about now?


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> My how we understand this! My kids are keenly interested to see what their public school friends think of homeschooling, so they can now commiserate on the ills of learning at home .
> 
> Glad to hear you keep plugging-away. I imagine your CB'd colonies are really booming about now?


Russ,

Neither CBed hive took off. One has very spotty brood. Perhaps the queen is failing? The other is building, but nothing like last year's Piper.

Both CBed hives had very low stores coming into early spring. I fed both hives, both neither really thrived. I am wondering if colonies build up aggressively in part because they perceive plenty of stores.

The bright side is I had another swarm catch. It was in the same location as the catch of 4/14. I took the host's reports rather lightly, thinking is was only scouting behavior. Today when I went to check on it, the bees were bringing in pollen.

The Corona hive still has me wondering. It is very cool to the touch. The temperatures of the hives that are roughly the same size are about 88F on the top of the inner cover. This one is only 74F at the top. The bees away from the brood area sit almost motionless. Incidentally, the brood pattern is excellent.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> Neither CBed hive took off. One has very spotty brood. Perhaps the queen is failing? The other is building, but nothing like last year's Piper.
> 
> Both CBed hives had very low stores coming into early spring. I fed both hives, both neither really thrived. I am wondering if colonies build up aggressively in part because they perceive plenty of stores.
> 
> The bright side is I had another swarm catch. It was in the same location as the catch of 4/14. I took the host's reports rather lightly, thinking is was only scouting behavior. Today when I went to check on it, the bees were bringing in pollen.
> 
> The Corona hive still has me wondering. It is very cool to the touch. The temperatures of the hives that are roughly the same size are about 88F on the top of the inner cover. This one is only 74F at the top. The bees away from the brood area sit almost motionless. Incidentally, the brood pattern is excellent.


Interesting observations, clong. I do appreciate your feedback.

I remain intrigued by the CB'ing process, but it seems to be contingent upon so many variables to make it reliably successful. Someday I need to make a pilgrimage down to Alabama and sit at the feet Squarepeg and learn what to look for and how to execute it based on what is observed.

It seems that there are so many variables to successful early-season manipulations to thread the needle between maintaining broodnest integrity and opening it up enough and in the right way to forestall swarming. Maybe someday I will figure it out...

I am glad to hear that you had another swarm catch- does this get you back to parity with last year regarding colony numbers?

Your Corona colony sounds like an interesting case-study. I suppose if they have a good brood pattern and continue to grow it is nothing to worry about?

I imagine the nectar is really rolling in at your place about now...

Have a great week.

Russ


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



Litsinger said:


> I remain intrigued by the CB'ing process, but it seems to be contingent upon so many variables to make it reliably successful. Someday I need to make a pilgrimage down to Alabama and sit at the feet Squarepeg and learn what to look for and how to execute it based on what is observed.
> 
> It seems that there are so many variables to successful early-season manipulations to thread the needle between maintaining broodnest integrity and opening it up enough and in the right way to forestall swarming. Maybe someday I will figure it out...


I think I need to make the pilgrimage too. I've failed a lot more than I've succeeded. Last year I watched my CBed hive supercede a healthy queen. That, and a decent honey harvest convinced me I did it right. The other three years - pffft!



Litsinger said:


> I am glad to hear that you had another swarm catch- does this get you back to parity with last year regarding colony numbers?
> 
> Your Corona colony sounds like an interesting case-study. I suppose if they have a good brood pattern and continue to grow it is nothing to worry about?
> 
> I imagine the nectar is really rolling in at your place about now...


Yes, back to parity, thank God. This latest swarm catch turned out to be bigger than I thought. Probably 5 lbs.

The nectar is rolling in. It looks like I'll probably collect around 100 lbs, if they keep up the current pace for a couple more weeks. 

I don't think the Corona bees are anything to worry about. I just think they are very careful not to exert excess energy. They are very productive. They are already filling up a honey super.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> I don't think the Corona bees are anything to worry about. I just think they are very careful not to exert excess energy. They are very productive. They are already filling up a honey super.


Maybe they are simply super-efficient- they're like EnergyStar-rated bees...


----------



## clong

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*

Hive Report 5/8/20:

1903 Mims – Checkerboarded, then un-Checkerboarded. Building slowly but steadily. Likely no excess honey

1905 Elisha – Also CBed then un-CBed. I haven’t dug into this one recently. I think this is an underperforming queen, but not sure.

2001 Salem – started as a baseball-sized swarm with a red-queen. Installed in a nuc. Growing slowly.

2002 Corona – When installed, they completely filled two 8-frame mediums. I put a Flowhive on with one frame of drone brood pulled up into the middle, to see what would happen. After 1 week I was about to give up and give them regular comb. They finally started storing nectar in the Flowhive. This might be my first significant harvest from a Flow Hive in 5 years of trying. They build beautiful pollen stores. The rest of the hives gather yellow and orange pollen, with a couple cells of tan or pale green. Here is a picture of a pollen frame from this hive.








2003 Canada – This swarm has filled two 9-frame supers, and got a third one 5/7/20. The nectar is medium-dark. Presumably, tulip poplar.

2004 Raub – A 3-lb swarm installed in a 10-frame medium box. Progressing nicely. I hope to see some new bees orienting soon.

2005 Northwind – This swarm occupied 80% of a 10-frame box. With the anticipated population drop, I intended to delay adding another box. They are storing nectar aggressively, so another 10-frame box was added on 5/7/20

2006 This swarm will be picked up tonight and installed this Sunday.


My ultimate plan is to propagate from Corona and Canada to make up a few more hives to get to 12. I'll try to make 3-6 nucs by June. I'm hoping to go into fall with 15-18 colonies.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience*



clong said:


> My ultimate plan is to propagate from Corona and Canada to make up a few more hives to get to 12. I'll try to make 3-6 nucs by June. I'm hoping to go into fall with 15-18 colonies.


Sounds like you are well on your way, clong. Good for you.

And a little surplus honey along the way... I'd consider that a good year.

Good update, and best of success to you as as the rest of the year unfolds.


----------



## Jovian

Just been lurking around here. Clong my swarms this year were overwhelmingly lethargic as well of the 15 or so I caught 2 grew like I have seen in years past. It's been very odd. Weather was very spotty during swarm time here so if it was a virgin there were lots of problems with mating.

Wanted to ask how your results with the top vents went. If I were to guess you haven't seen an advantage to having a top vent.


----------



## clong

Jovian said:


> Just been lurking around here. Clong my swarms this year were overwhelmingly lethargic as well of the 15 or so I caught 2 grew like I have seen in years past. It's been very odd. Weather was very spotty during swarm time here so if it was a virgin there were lots of problems with mating.
> 
> Wanted to ask how your results with the top vents went. If I were to guess you haven't seen an advantage to having a top vent.


Jovian,

I have been either busy or distracted the last few months. Sorry for such a late response. I don't see any major advantage to having a top vent. I'm not running any of my 9 current hives with top vents. I know that thermodynamically, ventless hives should be able to dry down the nectar faster, but I haven't gotten more than one strong hive through the winter, so I haven't seen it myself. Does that answer your question?

My hives are in 80% shade. I am going to cut down several trees which should allow for 1-2 more hours of sun to hit the hives mid-morning. That might have an effect on whether I experiment with opening the top vents next summer.

The one effect I have noticed so far is that insulated hives with no top vent, are able to build comb sooner in the spring, and later in the fall. One of my hives started making white comb in Feb/Mar 2 years ago. The were fanning at the entrance by mid-March. A different hive made white comb late into September the previous year.

I need to give a pre-winter report. I now use Nov 15th as the start date of "winter" in my beeyard, so I'll do one after that date.


----------



## clong

A short report on winter. It was terrible. Only 1/7 hives made it through winter. Three I believe were due to queen failure. I only re-queened one hive, and it didn't make it to fall. The rest I attribute to varroa mites. I know bees can be kept treatment-free in the general area. A local beekeeper who I spoke to recently reported 17% losses with ~40 hives. 

My plan this year is too see that each hive goes into winter with a new queen. I intend to major on raising fat, healthy queens, likely using OTS method. I am going to continue with insulated boxes and no top-vents.

So far, I've caught two swarms this year, so hopefully, I can catch a couple more and build to 10 hives by fall.


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## GregB

clong said:


> I intend to major on raising fat, healthy queens, likely using OTS method


Just as important (even more so) is to have many fat and healthy winter bees.
Just does not work for me - lack of fat and healthy winter bees wipes me out.
Been trying the July splits for the last 3-4 years to no avail.


----------



## clong

GregV said:


> Just as important (even more so) is to have many fat and healthy winter bees.
> Just does not work for me - lack of fat and healthy winter bees wipes me out.
> Been trying the July splits for the last 3-4 years to no avail.


Greg,

Yep, I know you're right. I've had one GREAT July split, but the rest have been duds. (The queen was fat, by the way) I gave the July nuc to a new beekeeper, he fed like crazy, and wouldn't you know that hive was booming the following spring.


----------



## GregB

clong said:


> (The queen was fat, by the way)


You can not say by the appearance if the queen is fat or not.
Bees are not bears.
The queen may be large while she is laying, that does make her fat for the wintering purposes.
So just by looking at the bees we don't know if their fat bodies are healthy and ready for the winter or not.
Just to be clear.


----------



## clong

GregV said:


> You can not say by the appearance if the queen is fat or not.
> Bees are not bears.
> The queen may be large while she is laying, that does make her fat for the wintering purposes.
> So just by looking at the bees we don't know if their fat bodies are healthy and ready for the winter or not.
> Just to be clear.


Greg,

Thanks.


----------



## GregB

Anyway, thanks for the update, clong.
Honest updates give the information needed to hopefully make the right adjustments.


----------



## Oldtimer

Clong are you considering what your genetics are?


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> A short report on winter. It was terrible.


clong:

I was glad to see your post today- not so glad to read the results. I am sorry for your troubles. 

I'm also curious what the local beekeeper with 40 colonies and 15% losses is doing - is he someone you can get some good feedback from concerning what is working for him?

Again sorry for the troubles- I do sincerely hope you have 10 or more colonies going into the fall.


----------



## AR1

clong said:


> A short report on winter. It was terrible. Only 1/7 hives made it through winter. Three I believe were due to queen failure. I only re-queened one hive, and it didn't make it to fall. The rest I attribute to varroa mites. I know bees can be kept treatment-free in the general area. A local beekeeper who I spoke to recently reported 17% losses with ~40 hives.
> 
> My plan this year is too see that each hive goes into winter with a new queen. I intend to major on raising fat, healthy queens, likely using OTS method. I am going to continue with insulated boxes and no top-vents.
> 
> So far, I've caught two swarms this year, so hopefully, I can catch a couple more and build to 10 hives by fall.


Sorry to hear of your troubles.
Not so different from my year. I lost 6 hives in the fall, then 3 more over winter, ending up with one alive now. I am reasonably sure it was not mainly a problem with varroa, given how few I found on the floor and none on the small clusters of the last survivors. One winter loss died of suffocation I believe, one died trying to protect early brood and got trapped away from food. The third I don't know.


----------



## lharder

It seems a terrible late summer and fall has caused a few problems for some beekeepers. While varroa is sometimes the cause, sometimes it may be the outcome. Perhaps a colony's focus changes with circumstance and varroa control gets put on the back burner. I think there could be much more research on decision making within the hive. In extreme circumstances, a hard unexpected dearth, robbing pressure may cause a hive to be in defense or attack mode, mites get ignored. If there is no pollen, then protein and health status is compromised, varroa gets an upper hand. 

I put on robbing screens on my big hives right after harvest. I have harvested during dearth the last few seasons. Not only is this miserable, but hard on the bees, setting off robbing. I think if harvested a bit earlier, the bees would be better off. Also I have not used that many queen excluders. Pollen is not put where the winter brood nest is going to be. I think some effort needs to be made to make sure that brood nest is packed with pollen when times are good in the season. In early fall maybe protein supplement needs to be fed if pollen is in short supply. 

What would happen to mite control if a hive was weakened by nosema? I suspect mite control goes away. 

I am rethinking things in terms of what I may have done to make things more difficult for my bees with resultant poor outcomes. 

On the subject of queen rearing. I think waiting to July to raise queens is too late. Mites have already built up by then, the drones may be in poor shape. Put a bunch of queen cells in a hive with some mites and see what happens to them. I raise my queens in May and June when there are good resources and mite levels still reasonable. I will still experiment with queen rearing in July, but I from now on I think this should happen with bees that have already undergone a brood break (the colonies created in May and June) to reduce mite levels.


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> clong:
> 
> I'm also curious what the local beekeeper with 40 colonies and 15% losses is doing - is he someone you can get some good feedback from concerning what is working for him?


Russ,

I would love to see how he does things. He catches numerous swarms, and does bring in genetics. Last batch of queens was from a guy in PA. I think the queen breeder is treatment-free. He used to work for Rodale. I believe he also winters quite of a few of his colonies in 2-4 high 5 frame nucs.

Thanks for the good wishes. I'm up to 6 hives now. Three swarms caught thus far. I do plan to re-queen from my one survivor colony, and from the most promising looking swarm colonies.

Oldtimer, I've considered genetics, but not real seriously. This last winter has made me think I better get serious. I've purchased one survivor queen in the past. That hive did really well. I intend to purchase another this spring.

My mistake last year was getting busy, lazy and not re-queening suspect hives. This year I intend to requeen every single hive in late May to early June. 

Thanks to everyone for all the insight and suggestions.


----------



## clong

The Art and Adventure of Beekeeping: Two-queen hive:

This year I set up a two-queen hive from two packages, hived on April 11th. Hive 2101 was installed on some pavers with the entrance almost at ground level. Hive 2102 was set up on a couple of empty hive boxes only a few inches away. Last year I read Ormond Aebi’s book, “The Art and Adventure of Beekeeping” He suggested in a congested apiary, attaching unique scraps of cloth to the bottom boards of some of the hives, to allow bees to find their way to their home hive. An old scrap of striped purple was stapled to the bottom board of 2101. Boxes were added to each hive as they built up.

When both hives were ready to go into 3 boxes, the hives were combined. A queen excluder and a 3/4" shim with entrance was put on top of Alpha. Then Omega was moved horizontally about 24" and installed directly on top. The incoming bees immediately re-routed and arced into the hive drawn by the "flag." Very cool to see. The flag was like a magnet, pulling bees to the new location.

On May 13th, I was inspecting the top box of 2102 and saw the queen. I set aside the frame she was on, and moved her into an underperforming hive (after removing the current queen). I've been very bad about replacing queens. This year will be different.

I will be interesting to see if it produces a significant crop of extra honey. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> I will be interesting to see if it produces a significant crop of extra honey. Fingers crossed.


CLong:

I'll be interested to read about how this turns-out for you- I assume the trick is to have a massive foraging force available for the flow and plenty of drawn comb to feed them?


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> CLong:
> 
> I'll be interested to read about how this turns-out for you- I assume the trick is to have a massive foraging force available for the flow and plenty of drawn comb to feed them?


Russ,

That is the theory, yes. We are probably 2 weeks out from the end of the main flow. This two-queen hive is not laying up extra honey as hoped. It is hard to get into 2101, since it requires moving so many boxes, so I don't know what is going on with them.

Meanwhile two swarms are doing well. One is filling up box #4, and the other is filling a Flowhive.


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## Litsinger

10-4, Makes sense from that perspective- I wonder if it would be of more benefit in places that have a long and sustained flow? Saw Ian Steppler has messed around with it a little bit:


----------



## Litsinger

clong:

Read this article today and thought of you. I sincerely hope all is well with you, your family and your apiary.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> clong:
> 
> Read this article today and thought of you. I sincerely hope all is well with you, your family and your apiary.
> 
> Russ


Looked at the article (thanks Litsinger).
And of course, my PITA comment about the condensation.


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## Litsinger

GregV:

I don't know about irrelevant, but your point is valid IMHO and duly noted. It would certainly be better to have a 'like-for-like' comparison. I found it interesting that his colonies with top insulation tended to cluster at the top, which has been my own experience here in a relatively milder climate.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> I don't know about irrelevant, but your point is valid IMHO and duly noted. It would certainly be better to have a 'like-for-like' comparison. I found it interesting that his colonies with top insulation tended to cluster at the top, which has been my own experience here in a relatively milder climate.


OK, "duly noted" is fine too. 

The general point is this - depending on presence or absence of the top insulation the bee cluster behaves differently.
The simple logic is this - the bees will migrate to the place in the cavity where it is the warmest.
The top insulation makes the very top of the cavity such a place.

So - insulating the top pulls the bees up and that is where they will normally settle for the entire winter.
Not installing the top insulation keeps the bees lower in the cavity (as there is no obviously warm place to move to ).
These two positions of the cluster then generate different dynamics over the duration of the winter - and different observations/conclusions.

And so - comparisons made over the different wintering dynamics/cluster setup and moves are not really.... correct? compatible?

IF to compare the effects of the insulated vs. NOT insulated inner covers you want to setup the clusters to be as *identical *as possible (either BOTH insulated or BOTH non-insulated).

THEN - for the short window (say 24-48 hours) apply the treatment (e.g. install the insulation) over one unit.
Do your measurements/observations - degree/nature of condensation in this example

After the measurement made/observation documented - return them to the compatible mode (again remove OR install insulation - whichever is appropriate - until the next measurement/observation).
The cluster will not significantly move over the short-term observation window, thus, making it possible to make repeated and compatible observations.

Anyway, this should be the reported experiment setup IF to be done properly.
Which was not, but yet published (including the picture that documented the very flaw of the experiment setup).


PS: a common practice to set the cluster as low as possible at the wintering start - do not have top insulation in place too early and/or not over-insulate;
once set low the cluster then able to move vertically up over the course of the winter;
setting the cluster on the very top at the very winter start is a poor start.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The general point is this - depending on presence or absence of the top insulation the bee cluster behaves differently.



Good points, GregV. While my opinion doesn't count for much, my own personal observations suggest that you are right about this.

Personally, I have experimented this year by allowing the upper entrance only until such time that we are safely past tight clustering and then plugged them off, forcing the colony to accommodate to lower entrance only for the majority of the year- and it has been a great improvement in both inspection ease and in surplus gathering (this one might be a correlation is not causation effect).

So now the next experiment (at least for me) is to try your idea of holding off on opening up the upper entrance until as late in the winter season as I can stomach to see if this keeps the clusters lower in the stack, even with the top insulation.

In my own meager operation it seems that the moisture problem has never been really acute (without top venting) until significant brood rearing gets started.


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## sparkyApis

Litsinger said:


> It would certainly be better to have a 'like-for-like' comparison.





GregV said:


> And so - comparisons made over the different wintering dynamics/cluster setup and moves are not really.... correct? compatible?


I hesitate to place my head between you two gentlemen and your target but I feel you may be doing Mr Gaut an injustice in that your comments are perfectly valid but they seem to me to be directed more towards some proposition different from that one being put in the paper.

My reading of it is that the experiment performed was a two factor factorial setup. The two factors being Insulation and top entrance, with two levels of each factor, presence and absence and the measurement was the amount of condensation on a transparent top cover in each hive. The results were that the presence of a top entrance made little difference to condensation regardless of insulation treatment and that the insulation treatment effect was large regardless of top entrance.

There is no doubt that the insulation treatments had an effect on cluster dynamics and Mr Gaut specifically acknowledges this but that is not what is being measured, he was looking at the effect of top insulation and ventilation on the hive, not on a specific cluster of bees. If you wish to argue that the difference in condensation was due to the different cluster position or some other detail of the mechanics then a more complex experiment would be required but Mr Gaut does not attempt to break down the causes. As one would expect the insulation treatment changes bee behaviour but that does not invalidate his observation which is "what it does" not "how it does it".

This may be just me being pedantic but I actually think there is some valuable information in the paper which should not be dismissed because of perceived faults in the design. Quite clearly, this paper is not the definitive study but there is food for thought and my opinion is that the design does what it was intended to do. There is more in the paper that does not depend on this experiment regardless of whatever faults it has.

His observations that top entrances cost energy seems hard to argue with and the information that they don't do much to reduce condensation has implications for management. Likewise his comments that bees in warmer hives have better access to moisture and perhaps better access to stores is also valuable information worth at least thinking about. If they are more mobile are they less likely to starve with stores available on other frames? He does make the observation that clusters high in insulated hives are dry and not starving so the model of the cluster having to eat its way up through stores may need a little thought. Finally, for this thread, this proposition relating to lower humidity resulting from ventilation deserves examination:
"By trying to keep hive interiors “dry”, we may be helping the mites and stressing the bees!" 

OK. Shutting up now.
Sel.


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## Litsinger

sparkyApis said:


> This may be just me being pedantic but I actually think there is some valuable information in the paper which should not be dismissed because of perceived faults in the design.


sparkyApis:

Good response and analysis. You make many valid points, and in my humble opinion this is the best part of this forum- the ability to engage in constructive discussion about topics (such as this one) that have multiple facets to them.

The genesis of this discussion goes back to the OP, who was experimenting with no top entrance and well insulated hive assemblies, so GregV and my conversation is kind of 'picking up where we left off'... And at least on my end might suffer from a bit of presumption that other readers are familiar with the previous discussions which have touched on many of the general themes that you outline.

All that said, I'm glad you jumped into the discussion and I appreciate the time you took to compose a well-constructed response.

Based on your evaluation of the research on this topic and your locale, are you experimenting with top insulation and/or upper entrances?

For my part, I have run 1" polystyrene top insulation with 1" round upper entrances and have had reasonably good wintering results in my relatively mild midsouth US climate- winter lows rarely below 10 degrees F with frequent brief warm-ups that allow for cleansing flights.


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## GregB

sparkyApis said:


> There is no doubt that the insulation treatments had an effect on cluster dynamics and Mr Gaut specifically acknowledges this but that is not what is being measured, he was looking at *the effect of top insulation and ventilation on the hive, not on a specific cluster of bees.* If you wish to argue that the difference in condensation was due to the different cluster position or some other detail of the mechanics then a more complex experiment would be required but Mr Gaut does not attempt to break down the causes. As one would expect the insulation treatment changes bee behaviour but that does not invalidate his observation which is "what it does" not "how it does it".


He was looking at the effects of the top insulation and ventilation of the hive in the context of water condensation.

Now, the context of water condensation is determined be several factors.
He made the his variables to be 1)top insulation and 2)ventilation via the entrances.
Other variables were to be fixed (across the compared colonies).

Well - the cluster properties were NOT fixed to the same across the compared colonies.
The proximity of the heat and moisture emitting body (the bee cluster) to the condensation surface (the see-through inner cover) is one of the significant inputs into the resulting observations and conclusions.
IF to be ignored, the position of the cluster is to be fixed to the same position across the compared colonies.
Moreover:

the compatibility in size of the clusters - yet another variable, accuracy of which is not clear here;
the brood rearing status of the cluster - yet another significant variable, where the brood rearing cluster will emit 2-3 times the heat and moisture of the non-brood rearing cluster of identical size.

In fact, I can just say neither of the upper entrance OR the insulation measurements are conclusive at all IF the compatibility of the position, size, and brood-rearing status of the clusters are NOT fixed to the same.

A strong cluster of bees positioned immediately under a cover will keep it heated and dry enough to have the same conclusions - regardless of insulation and ventilation. Especially so IF the cluster is rearing brood. 
Importantly, the source of the heat and humidity is the primary input into the subsequent processes as the amount of heat and humidity emitted is the #1 factor to account for OR to properly exclude from the observations.

Anyway, as soon as I see absence of clarifications similar to the above, I am a skeptic of the conclusions.


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## sparkyApis

Litsinger said:


> presumption that other readers are familiar with the previous discussions which have touched on many of the general themes that you outline.


Russ, I sometimes envy your way with words and your ability to be unfailingly pleasant. Thank you.
As Gregv is aware, my experience with bees is small, just look at the colour of my beesuit, but I have read most of this thread. I thought Gaut's paper dealt with many of the same points but did have a slightly different take on some which could be useful and did not deserve to be dismissed as invalid. I notice GregV has replied specifically to this and I will respond to him seperately.

My environment is so far different and the problem is heat rather than cold but the same disagreements about ventilation and insulation still come up. My personal experiment is in long hives with deep frames and I am starting out with top insulation, minimal top ventilation, mid entrance and closed bottom but I have designed in lots of options. Should you be having trouble falling asleep the entire saga is over in my "Long deep dreams" thread.

Sel.


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## GregB

sparkyApis said:


> I thought Gaut's paper dealt with many of the same points but did have a slightly different take on some which could be useful and did not deserve to be dismissed as invalid.


OK, I will say that his paper is *not *invalid entirely (because it does apply to many cases exactly as observed).
In general, placing the insulation over the impermeable cover results to very similar outcomes to those observed.

In fact, I referred recently to the very similar observations of the same regarding the condensation (completely unscientific observations, but nonetheless very common).
Specifically here:








Pros and Cons of Having Free Space in Frame Top Feed Area


For optimum wintering in cold climates. I have seen some photos of a piece of plastic sheet, canvaas, reflectix etc. floated over the dry sugar feed on frame tops. I have commonly wintered hives quite sucessfully with an inch and a half space between frame tops and the bottom surface of a quilt...




www.beesource.com





However, I don't see him addressing some of the significant potential inputs that could be altering the observed outcomes (perhaps even very dramatically).
I would not care to comment, but the paper is kinda/sorta scientific and as such deserves stricter scrutiny.


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## sparkyApis

Gregv, interesting. I'll have one more go at this although I fear it may be a bit repetitive.


GregV said:


> He was looking at the effects of the top insulation and ventilation of the hive in the context of water condensation.


Well, what he says is "I compared the amounts of condensation on the inner covers". So that is the actual measurement. To my mind the context is "in a functioning beehive" and condensation is the measure because as he says "the conventional recommendation is to provide an upper entrance to reduce condensation at the top of the hive".


GregV said:


> Other variables were to be fixed (across the compared colonies).


I think this is the root cause of our differences in interpretation. No where does Gaut say this or even imply it. He applies his treatments, allows the colonies to react as they wish and looks at the resulting effect on condensation. To fix the cluster in place may be more rigourous, intellectually satisfying perhaps, but ultimately pointless because it is an unrealistic situation in practice. The effect is what it is. If you want to design a set experiments to work out the detail then go for it.

Your points about lack of information on cluster size, brood status etc. are valid but I think it reasonable to assume that Gaut was seeking information and would have set up an honest comparison. In any case the whole thing is four hives so the fine details of trial design are a bit irrelevant. He does say that an expanded trial of insulated closed top hives gave results consistent with the initial trial providing evidence that the low condensation result is not a one off. That in turn provides a valid suggestion that the conventional wisdom may be questioned.

Sel.


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## sparkyApis

GregV said:


> OK, I will say that his paper is *not *invalid entirely (because it does apply to many cases exactly as observed).


Sorry, you posted whilst I was working on my reply. We really don't have much disagreement I think. I would love to see a trial of even two legs of this, the no insulation ventilated vs. the insulated closed, looking at the effects on survivability, access to stores and the like. My thought is that you would have to let the cluster do what it wants because to do otherwise would take the whole thing too far away from what is practical.


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## GregB

sparkyApis said:


> My thought is that you would have to let the cluster do what it wants because to do otherwise would take the whole thing too far away from what is practical.


I basically described (above) how I would approach this exact experiment.
In my view the results would be better in describing what is happening.

But anyhow, I got bigger fish to fry i.e. getting the bees alive through the winter in the "laziest possible way".


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## Litsinger

From Bee-L today, an earlier companion piece from John A. Gaut regarding his upper vent and insulation experiment.

And I finally found a good link to the 'water bottle bee' video:



Water bottle bee – Northeast New Jersey Beekeepers Association


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## Litsinger

Good article from Dr. Dewey Caron in this month's ABJ relating to overwintering. About 2/3rd's in is a discussion about the 'ventilating' versus the 'condensing' colony.


----------



## david stern

Thank you for these attachments! I am just getting back into beekeeping after several years of focusing on other things and I am finding these concepts very interesting.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Good article from Dr. Dewey Caron in this month's ABJ relating to overwintering. About 2/3rd's in is a discussion about the 'ventilating' versus the 'condensing' colony.


odd article

Studies of colonies in central Pennsylvania (at Penn State) found overwintering success not influenced by a particular stock or region of stock origin; *I have experienced the opposite, some bees winter some do not. *

The bottom line: Winter success, at least in the Northeastern U.S., is most strongly related to summer temperatures and precipitation in the prior year. As to how, the researchers concluded it was most likely through floral resource (landscape nutrition) availability. *ok then so do not worry it is all up to the weather*

from there is did get better and went on to tell you what to do.??

here is a question for you quilt box or the new term Hot box folks.
a new one has a lot of air flow, in a year or 3 they have the thing almost completely protolyzed.
It must matter as they slowly close it down.

her is the question, *Do you change the cloth/screen every year or 2 to remove the propolis or leave it as is?*

GG


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## clong

1/22/22 Hive Report

This winter started off warm. In November and December, lots of days in the 50s and 60s. I added sugar to all but two of the hives. In recent days, lows have been in the 15-22F range. Today the high barely made it to 32F. 13 hives were inspected. One large colony starved in December. Not a drop of honey left. Clearly, I bungled that one. In two more hives, I couldn't see past the mountaintop sugar. Still, 10/13 confirmed to be still alive. Many of the colonies look good, with sizable clusters. Most of the clusters are buried deep in the box. However, there were three that were clustered at the top: The first picture is hive 2103. It consists of two 10 frame insulated boxes. It appears to be the strongest at this point. The second is 2108, which is in a polystyrene hive with two 10 frame boxes. The final picture is 2113 which is in a single 8-frame 2x box. It will be interesting to see if it makes it.

Last year at this point, I was down to a couple of weak colonies. What is the difference?

This year I pinched every single queen but one. The last one escaped only because I ran out of time. New queens were raised from the swarm queens that looked most promising, and were placed in full-size hives, and nucs. For the rest of the hives, I simply dropped the current queen into my swarm lure bottle, and let the colony replace her. Other than that, I haven't done anything else differently. No treatments. I am managing the bees the same. I don't know whether to attribute better wintering success to new queens, weather, or something else. All I know is the populations are much bigger, and more lively this year.

2103











2108










2113


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## A Novice

So maybe my success wintering is due to my difficulty keeping my bees from superseding?


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## AR1

Love the glass tops.


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> All I know is the populations are much bigger, and more lively this year.


CLong:

Good to read your report- glad you're meeting with success this Winter. How are your experiments with insulation going? Have you standardized around insulation top and sides and no upper vent?


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## GregB

clong said:


> I haven't done anything else differently. No treatments. I am managing the bees the same. I don't know whether to attribute better wintering success to new queens, weather, or something else. All I know is the populations are much bigger, and more lively this year.


@clong,
Good for you.
Sounds like you are also one of the "lucky" ones that are not supposed to exist.
But you do - exist.

So yes - until you try you don't know.
But once you try it out - you should know what is (and is not) possible.
TF feasibility is variable population by population.


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## clong

Litsinger said:


> CLong:
> 
> Good to read your report- glad you're meeting with success this Winter. How are your experiments with insulation going? Have you standardized around insulation top and sides and no upper vent?


Russ,

Yes. In fact, the latest set of plexiglass covers were made without ventilation notches. I ran several colonies without top ventilation year-round. All hives are insulated, except a couple 8 frames and nucs. I tell myself I am "experimenting" but really, I just didn't get around to insulating. However, it is nice to have a couple of control hives to compare to.

One of these days I plan to take some pictures of the insulated boxes to show how they have held up.


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## clong

GregB said:


> @clong,
> Good for you.
> Sounds like you are also one of the "lucky" ones that are not supposed to exist.
> But you do - exist.
> 
> So yes - until you try you don't know.
> But once you try it out - you should know what is (and is not) possible.
> TF feasibility is variable population by population.


GregB,

It's only been one winter. If 1/2 of the surviving colonies make it through a second winter, I'll feel a little more successful.


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> I tell myself I am "experimenting" but really, I just didn't get around to insulating.


I say this counts- unintentional research is still research, right?

If it's not, most of my experiments are strictly accidents in disguise. 

I'll look forward to further updates from you as the season unfolds and time allows.


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## clong

A brief observation:

02/02/22 1PM: It is 48F and sunny. The uninsulated wooden hives are showing a lot of flight activity, especially a 3-box 8-frame 2x hive. No pollen coming in. The insulated hives including one poly hive are showing little. During temperature swings, it appears that the uninsulated hives come to life more quickly, as many others have said. I'll go check again around 4PM, and see if the insulated hives have more traffic.


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## GregB

clong said:


> During temperature swings, it appears that the* uninsulated hives come to life more quickly, as many others have said.*


Which makes sense.
Which also points out how the uninsulated hives can be a benefit OR a liability - depending on a specific case.

IF the bees are of the southern-type (e.g. Italians) - they take advantage of frequent pooping opportunities because they need them, so a quick reaction to a random warm day is good. Uninsulated hives maybe beneficial then - at the expense of active, inefficient wintering.

The northern-type bees (e.g. Carni) might as well be kept in the "refrigeration-style" equipment as they are suited better for the long haul and do not require frequent poop dumps.
The wintering is then more passive and more efficient until the seasons turn.


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## clong

clong said:


> A brief observation:
> 
> 02/02/22 1PM: It is 48F and sunny. The uninsulated wooden hives are showing a lot of flight activity, especially a 3-box 8-frame 2x hive. No pollen coming in. The insulated hives including one poly hive are showing little. During temperature swings, it appears that the uninsulated hives come to life more quickly, as many others have said. I'll go check again around 4PM, and see if the insulated hives have more traffic.


02/02/22 2:20PM: 51F and sunny. All hives are now flying with gusto. It seems the lethargic insulated hives lag about 90-120 minutes behind the wooden hives.
The activity is like hives on a flow.


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## Gray Goose

clong said:


> 02/02/22 2:20PM: 51F and sunny. All hives are now flying with gusto. It seems the lethargic insulated hives lag about 90-120 minutes behind the wooden hives.
> The activity is like hives on a flow.


do they fly longer to compensate?

start later end later?

or start later end the same time.

just wondering.

GG


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## crofter

I have read that colonies kept wrapped into the early summer put out foragers earlier in the morning. They dont have to stay home to help keep brood warm. Would not be too hard to test. You should see it next season with your permanently insulate hives. Hope you dont have to put little air conditioners in for them! Greg B will be doing victory dances if you do!


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## clong

Gray Goose said:


> do they fly longer to compensate?
> 
> start later end later?
> 
> or start later end the same time.
> 
> just wondering.
> 
> GG


GG,

Funny, you should ask that. I just went out to look at 3:40. The clouds had blocked the sun for a while; the temp is falling. The 8 frame wooden hive was quiet. Most of the insulated hives and the nucs still had moderate activity. The winner is "start later end later".

If I had to guess, the uninsulated hives get more total flights in, but the insulated hives do keep flying longer.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> Greg B will be doing victory dances if you do!


Not really.
I'd be just happy for the fellow beeks for being innovative (nothing wrong with "reinventing" the wheel if it helps).
But I am also happy when people start looking across the borders just a little and learn from others (to be fair - BOTH ways!)


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## clong

crofter said:


> I have read that colonies kept wrapped into the early summer put out foragers earlier in the morning. They dont have to stay home to help keep brood warm. Would not be too hard to test. You should see it next season with your permanently insulate hives. Hope you dont have to put little air conditioners in for them! Greg B will be doing victory dances if you do!


Ha, ha. I'm not worried about air conditioners. Honeybees are all equipped with swamp coolers.

I once heard that a smaller commercial beekeeper in Australia saw a 30% increase in honey production with poly hives. He said it was often over 100F during the day.

Will it be a Cossack dance?


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## crofter

If the bees are actively into the evaporative cooling mode iinsulation would seem to help the bees game. I have seen people hard to convince to close the windows when it was hotter outside than in!


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## Litsinger

CLong:

Did you see this one?

Episode 67: Insulating your Hives in Summer & Sting Management

In this episode of Two Bees in a Podcast, released on July 21st, 2021, we are joined by Derek Mitchell from the Institute of Thermal Fluids in the School of Mechanical Engineering at the University of Leeds, U.K., to discuss why you should insulate your hives in the summer.


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## clong

Litsinger said:


> CLong:
> 
> Did you see this one?
> 
> Episode 67: Insulating your Hives in Summer & Sting Management
> 
> In this episode of Two Bees in a Podcast, released on July 21st, 2021, we are joined by Derek Mitchell from the Institute of Thermal Fluids in the School of Mechanical Engineering at the University of Leeds, U.K., to discuss why you should insulate your hives in the summer.


Russ,

No, I didn't. Thanks for pointing it out. Recently, I've been searching for good beekeeping podcasts. This one should be interesting, since his research is one of the reasons I have gone the no-top-vent/insulated route.


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## Litsinger

Who knew he was TF?


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## clong

Litsinger said:


> Who knew he was TF?


Russ,

I didn't know either way. Are you saying he doesn't use chemicals in his hives?


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> Are you saying he doesn't use chemicals in his hives?


He discusses it in the podcast.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> to discuss why you should insulate your hives in the summer.


Is the thermal capacity (vs. the insulation) discussed at all?

In summer it is the hive wall's thermal capacity is much more valuable.
A matter of fact, maybe the same (or there about) in the winter.

The acute and very distinct difference of the thermal transfer resistance (see insulation) and thermal capacity (NOT insulation) is being confused/omitted/mis-explained right and left.

All materials have both - the capacity and the resistance - but in different combinations.


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## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Is the thermal capacity (vs. the insulation) discussed at all?


In great detail- well worth the listen IMHO. As an engineer by trade who works in the building sciences field he made a compelling argument to me such that it is hard to argue against, at least from the heat transfer perspective.


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## AR1

Litsinger said:


> In great detail- well worth the listen IMHO. As an engineer by trade who works in the building sciences field he made a compelling argument to me such that it is hard to argue against, at least from the heat transfer perspective.


NOT being an engineer...it seems to me that thermal capacity is a 2-edged sword. By that I mean that once a heavy block of whatever with high thermal capacity gets chilled, it takes a heck of a lot of energy to warm it back up. A bad thing, I would think, in an area with cold winters, unless there was also insulation to prevent the heat loss to begin with. Makes me think of a hot water bottle. Nice if already hot on a cold day.


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> NOT being an engineer...it seems to me that thermal capacity is a 2-edged sword. By that I mean that once a heavy block of whatever with high thermal capacity gets chilled, it takes a heck of a lot of energy to warm it back up. A bad thing, I would think, in an area with cold winters, unless there was also insulation to prevent the heat loss to begin with. Makes me think of a hot water bottle. Nice if already hot on a cold day.


It takes *two *to dance.
But people routinely talk - insulation, insulation, insulation, and nothing but insulation.

Like this tree here provides *both *(huge capacity and decent transfer resistance) in a very cold winter/temperate summer climate.

BUT - in the dead of the winter, the internals of the pictured cavity are, indeed, very cold.
It becomes frozen wood - through and through (all those tons of frozen wood surrounding the bees).
It is a problem?
No.
A cold and steady cavity in winter is not a problem, in fact.


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> NOT being an engineer...it seems to me that thermal capacity is a 2-edged sword.


This is true- if dealing with a passive environment. His point is that the bees have all the tools necessary to heat and cool the space to their requirements and it is only a question of how much energy is required to maintain the setpoint- just like any conditioned thermal envelope.


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## clong

Hive Report 3/1/22:

8/14 colonies survive. Numbers are starting to revert back to the mean. A breakdown:

8/10 swarm colonies

0/4 package colonies

Ten colonies were acquired via swarms, or splits from a swarm. One colony was doomed by my oversight. They starved in December. The other one that didn’t make it got re-queened twice. The queens just didn’t seem to take.

Four of the colonies derived from three packages. None survived. The package colonies were prolific brood producers, but didn’t produce a lot of honey and didn’t have the knack for surviving winter.

All colonies had their queens replaced by the end of summer. This year I plan to again replace all queens, but I will make sure that any package queens get replaced by survivor queens.

On Feb 15th, four of the hives were chimneyed (coined by squarepeg, I think?) ala Walt Wright's Checkerboarding technique. It will be exciting to see if a couple really build up, and supersede their queens.


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## GregB

clong said:


> The package colonies were prolific brood producers, but didn’t produce a lot of honey and didn’t have the knack for surviving winter.


Basically what I observed many times by now.
The package bees are made from bees selected for prolific propagation.
This is so to sell as many as possible bees and have as many as possible bees for the seasonal pollination business.

That is the hole point - *against *buying the package bees.
The priorities of the package sellers and the backyard beekeepers are orthogonal to each other; they are NOT the same.
The backyard people do not need bees the prioritize the propagation as their #1 activity.


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## Litsinger

GregB said:


> The package bees are made from bees selected for prolific propagation.


The only exception might be locally made-up packages and/or the Certified Russian stock that Mann-Lake is selling.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> The only exception might be locally made-up packages and/or the Certified Russian stock that Mann-Lake is selling.


True - a good qualification.
Perhaps a pure-enough Carni/Caucasian package would also be different from a "default" bee package.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> ... it kind of speaks to the idea of mimicking a tree hollow as best that modern bee management will allow- enough thermal mass/resistance to attenuate-out wild temperature swings as observed inside the hive.


The ABJ has really been hitting it out of the park recently IMHO with great articles which are discussing many of the issues that have been batted around on this forum in recent years.

Case in point, the attached 'Thinking Outside the Box' article by Seeley and Radcliffe addresses some of the questions about whether a well-insulated and thermally-massive envelope is better than the alternative- and I look forward to the follow-up results which will presumably include bees inside the tree cavity.

I quoted the attached post above, as I must take a bit of umbrage with the characterization in the article of Rev. Langstroth's position on highly-insulated hives. As I understand it, his initial design incorporated copious amounts of insulation on the top and sides, but recognized that the market would not support it.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Case in point, the attached 'Thinking Outside the Box' article by Seeley and Radcliffe addresses some of the questions about whether a *well-insulated and thermally-massive envelope is better than the alternative*


BTW, I got side-tracked with my mini-hives this summer and it sounds like this is how it will be.

BUT, I have to report I am happy with my relatively massive vertical hive (to remind - the walls are made of 2x wood and the cavity is a square ~300x300 in sizing).
Even though the bees in it were just mediocre over the winter - nevertheless, they did survive (with high attrition) and after a very slow start from a small cluster still rebounded are now working on a honey crop.
So I attribute this in part to the hive construct.
Of note - honey consumption was meager (this hive is a Toyota Prius hands down for its winter honey economy). 

This project is definitely to be continued.


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## Litsinger

Recent update from Dr. Leo dealing with comb collapse in top-bar / frameless situations- deals with many of the same fundamentals being discussed in the recent articles here on CLong's thread:






Comb Collapse | How to Prevent | Free Guide







horizontalhive.com


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Case in point, the attached 'Thinking Outside the Box' article by Seeley and Radcliffe addresses some of the questions about whether a well-insulated and thermally-massive envelope is better than the alternative...


Interesting follow-up by Ross Conrad in the November BC revisits Seeley and Radcliffe's research. The article is more impressive when one considers that Mr. Conrad has long cast a critical eye at the utility of highly-insulated assemblies- but to his credit he acknowledges that the research has merit and might be worth integrating in some management regimes.

He also articulates the benefit of thermal mass in a manner that makes it useful to the apiculturist who isn't otherwise studied in the finer points of heat transfer.


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## clong

Hive Report: Jan 2023

Jan 1st & 2nd were very warm, so I took advantage to inspect stores and for brood.

On Jan 1st, I went into 4 of the hives, and after checking for honey, I looked at one or two supposed brood frames. Not a single egg to be seen. Most of the populations were medium strength at best, but at least they appeared healthy. There were LOTS of small hive beetles cornered in the top of frames in the brood nest. Hundreds in some cases. 

It raises the question, do the small hive beetles assist the cluster in any way? Do a large number of them help the hive to stay warm?

On Jan 2nd, I inspected the other 5 colonies. 3 of them had brand-new eggs straight from the factory. Interesting. Do honeybees take New Year's Day off?

Also noted was that the two weakest colonies had queens from 2021 placed into 2022 splits.
Among the best hives are three colonies from 2021. All look good at this point. It would be nice to see these produce honey, and survive through to 2024.

In the next few weeks, I plan to post a few pictures on how the insulated boxes are holding up.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> thermally-massive envelope



I like that term

may use it going forward

GG


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