# organic bees?



## sanders36051 (Mar 16, 2007)

What would the defintion be for organic bee keeping and organic honey. 
Would this mean you used no chemicals in the hive. What about the crops they feed on if they were treated would that mean the honey was not organic?


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> Would this mean you used no chemicals in the hive. -sanders36051


Right.



> What about the crops they feed on if they were treated would that mean the honey was not organic? -sanders36051


Right.

And what's more, all of the land within the potential foraging area of the hive would have to be "certified organic" under USDA standards for the honey from the hive to be "certified organic."

Very, very difficult, if not impossible in the United States. That's likely why most of the "organic honey" offered on the market comes from other countries.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

All the land would not have to be actually certified. For USDA certified organic, all you have to do is coordinate with a certifying agent that you are organic. There are 'proposed' (since 2001) organic rules for beekeeping, but there is some flexibility there. If you're serious about organic honey, don't waste time fooling around on the internet, contact a local certifying agent and ask for clarification. If the agent says your organic, your organic. I'm not meaning that 'organic' is meaningless, I'm saying the agent defines (based on rules, with some flexibility with bees) what is organic.

Its my understanding you certify your farm, then anything you produce at that local is organic as you can only produce things organically. This is of course hear say, so again a certifying agent is whom you must ask.


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

There's USDA organic, scientifically organic, and practically organic. USDA organic means no chemicals in the hive and perhaps no chemicals used on plants (that could vary from state to state). Practically organic means that you don't use chemicals, but heck, you don't know what your bees are bringing in! Scientifically organic means "contains carbon." Gee, that's simple!

-Nathanael


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

As I read it, "adequate forage" for each hive around each hive would have to be certified organic for honey from the hive to qualify.

Sugar in any sugar syrup fed to bees that produce organic honey must also be "certified organic."



> Its my understanding you certify your farm, then anything you produce at that local is organic as you can only produce things organically. -MichaelW


I think the basic advice MichaelW offers is good: check with a USDA certifying agent. However, I can assure you that getting your honey labeled as "organic" by the USDA will entail more than just "certify[ing] your farm." For instance, I own ten acres. Those ten acres could be "certified organic" (they're not, but they could be). But most of the flowers that bees from the hives I keep on those ten acres visit will be off of the ten acres.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

"However, I can assure you that getting your honey labeled as "organic" by the USDA will entail more than just "certify[ing] your farm."

No, it is that 'simple'. OK, its not simple but yes if your farm is certified organic, that means everything you produce must be organic, including the bees, as far as I understand. Thats unfortunate for me, as I'll probably never be able to produce organic goats (no available organic feed), but could do organic honey, but certified organic honey is out of the question as I can't certify the whole farm.

You can also use the USDA organic label on your honey if your entire farm income falls below a certain amount of money AND you qualify for organic certification by following all the rules. But you better really be sure about the rules as the penalties are stiff. With the honey rules as undefined as they are, I would not consider it an option without working closely with a certifying agent.

Here's what ATTRA says about it


> Organic Apiculture Standards
> 
> Beekeepers wanting to market organic honey or other organic bee products will need certification by a USDA-accredited organic certification agency. Please refer to ATTRA's Organic Farm Certification and the National Organic Program for general certification information.
> 
> ...


with the details here

http://www.ams.usda.gov/nosb/lscommRMR/reports/apiculture.html

this item
* Forage area — Hives have to be located at least 4 miles from any area using prohibited materials listed in the standards or from any contaminated sites.

would seem impossible and probably is. However, certifying agents have the final say. These rules are proposed. I would imagine (conjecture) that common sense must be used by the certifying agent. If your next to a big (non-organic) cotton farm your probably not going to be certified.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Also note, Formic acid is allowed. Seems an informed agent would also agree to Thymol products. Its based on an essential oil (allowed) and less caustic chemical the Formic. The document is out of date.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> No, it is that 'simple'. OK, its not simple but yes if your farm is certified organic, that means everything you produce must be organic, including the bees, as far as I understand. -MichaelW


That's not the way I understand the rules. For an example, I have relatives who grow organic wheat (certified). They also have sheep. Their sheep are not "organic." They still adhere to the standards, but have yet to have certification on their sheep.

And read the link you provided:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/nosb/lscommR...piculture.html

This spells out "forage areas" pretty clearly. I doubt you could get your honey "certified organic" if your hives were on your , say, twenty-acre certified organic strawberry farm, unless all your neighbors were also in compliance with organic standards.

Such practices would devalue the "organic" certication by the USDA in a hurry, if anyone found out that "organic honey" could be coming from hives with bees foraging mostly on conventional crops.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Kieck, your example shows I'm missing something with the all farm part, but I have an example as well with an organic beekeeper. He sells USDA certified organic honey completely legally and he is the only certified organic farmer around, owning a relatively small plot of land. USDA organic honey can be done as people are doing it.

The rules I linked to that appear clear, are not, as they are not official rules. Both your example and my example show that the only definitive answer you are going to get on organic honey is going to come from a certifying agent, not anything you are going to find either in the NOSB rules or the internet.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I don't think that the word organic should be used around bees or honey. I used to be an organic dairy farmer and to be certified we had to control everything that was fed to the cows, this included the land they grazed, the hay and grain they ate. We also had to use spring water to wash all equipment and water cows. This was for a aproduct that comes straight from the cow.

Honey does not come straight from the bee. Calling honey organic is like saying the hell with the cows, lets Keep the transport truck chemical free and certify the milk organic.

I have only ever seen rainforest honey certified organic in this country and I have a hard time believing that anybody has certification for honey produced in the USA. I know alot of people claim organic honey and I have very little respect for those who would mis-lead their customer for the sale.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Tell me this. What makes South American Rainforests any more organic than Eastern US forest honey? There's no such thing as 'purity' in organic. There are agricultural practices that organic certification attempts to move away from. That dosen't mean that the food is free of toxins in our environment. Your cows breathed the same air, and eat the same grass gown on the rains that feed the trees and pastures of my neighbors. If there is no major pesticide intensive farm, golf course, industrial factory, or mega lawn subdivision within 4 miles of a bee yard, any 'contamination' is going to be insignificant compared to what you experience each time you take a breath of the polluted air we now have.

Certified organic honey gives consumers some level of confidence that the honey is produced in 'best practices' for the agricultural philosophy they wish to support. Thats never going to mean the food is clear of some toxins no matter what the ag. sector.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I am a believer in the original phylosophy of organic. when organics first came out I used to see bumper stickers everywhere that said "It's About the Environment Stupid". 

No you will not get chemical free foods that are better for you. The food has the same nutritional value reguardless of whether it is organic or not.

I don't buy into the rainforest organic honey either. I was just saying that is the only CERTIFIED organic honey I have ever seen in this country. The problem with the rainforest honey is that most of those countries have very weak envirinmental laws so who know what has been dumped in those forests.

The problem with US forests is that they are managed for timber and often sprayed with herbicides to control the growth of unwanted timber. That is even true of national forests. Spraying is what keeps Asplundh in business. Even if the forest in your area is not sprayed any power line right of way through it is.

The 4 mile rule is faulty also. Even if you completely controled the 2360 acres in 4 square miles of you the bees will fly farther than that for a good flow and who knows if somebody outside that range is spraying on a windy day and contaminated your bees in passing. Wheat being harvested in the mid west hits the side of the empire state building almost every harvest season.

MichaelW: I completely agree with your last sentance.


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