# Thermosolar Hive; the new silver bullet



## J and R Apiary

That temperature in there is insane. 116 degrees? Boy oh boy. Serious melting issues.


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## kaizen

I believe beeswax melts at around 140....so I don't think the cappings would melt. I can see any unsealed honey begin to run making a mess. i'd like to see a study of varoa and heat death like they describe. Africa is often over 100 degrees so I have got to think their hives can hit that often and they still have the problem.
doubt very much that we'd see increased honey as for that time period and for hours after all the bees would be fanning the hive. doesn't larvae have a narrow temperature band of survival?


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## jwcarlson

13-16 seconds in... what's hanging out of that bee's rear end?!


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## D Coates

I hate seeing the Einstein "quote." If someone can actually show when and where he said that (from a reliable source) I'd be greatly appreciative. It's like an internet rumor that people perpetuate without actually seeing if it's real.


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## Agis Apiaries

jwcarlson said:


> 13-16 seconds in... what's hanging out of that bee's rear end?!


It's a brand new issue caused by overheated Thermosolar hives! Cooked bee innards?


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## Stephenpbird

Do they make the solar hive to fit the flow hive? That has to to be the way to go. Maybe i can get crowd funding to set up a new apiary and save the honeybee all on my lonesome...


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## D Coates

Stephenpbird said:


> Do they make the solar hive to fit the flow hive? That has to to be the way to go. Maybe i can get crowd funding to set up a new apiary and save the honeybee all on my lonesome...


I know you're joking, but those would be some seriously expensive hives if you combined a thermosolar hive with a flow hive! This whole thing is set up to look like the flowhive video. They're hoping the crowd funding lightning will strike twice. Claims of killing off pathogens (varroa, EFB, AFB, etc) via heat (no reviewable studies) is nowhere near as sexy as turning a spigot and getting honey. Undoubtedly some folks with more money than brains will throw money at this but like flow hive count me out. The drinking of honey at the end? I've got nothing to say except, what the....????


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## Nabber86

Just a guess, but I figure the cost of a solar hive with a spigot would run around $1,200 each. Wannabe suburban hipsters a big market to pander to.


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## sqkcrk

jwcarlson said:


> 13-16 seconds in... what's hanging out of that bee's rear end?!


I noticed that too, JW. That bee had been squashed and it's guts were hanging out its rear end.


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## sqkcrk

D Coates said:


> I hate seeing the Einstein "quote." If someone can actually show when and where he said that (from a reliable source) I'd be greatly appreciative. It's like an internet rumor that people perpetuate without actually seeing if it's real.


Proving he never said it is difficult, since he never said it. No one can find anything showing he did say it. But once a rumor lilke that gets started it's hard to eliminate.


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## BeeBop

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there...


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## dtrooster

Nabber86 said:


> Just a guess, but I figure the cost of a solar hive with a spigot would run around $1,200 each. Wannabe suburban hipsters a big market to pander to.


Yep, them boys gonna get rich. Haters gone a hate, lol


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## JRG13

Stephenpbird said:


> Do they make the solar hive to fit the flow hive? That has to to be the way to go. Maybe i can get crowd funding to set up a new apiary and save the honeybee all on my lonesome...


I seriously laughed out loud when I read this.


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## Brad Bee

Who knows maybe it works as advertised. I don't see what would need to be funded and/or purchased. Looks like you need a piece of glass on top and a thermometer....

I'm gonna come up with some kind of idea and start a go fund me campaign. Save Brad Bee from undue suffering and eliminate his need for money so he can sing to his bees every day. Singing to bees is proven to make the beekeeper less stressed and the bees can sense his mood. Save Brads bees by contributing to Brad's beesinging beehive starter campaign!

I'll post my paypal address....


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## challenger

Good God! ANOTHER company looking for handouts. Actually this is incorrect. They are not looking for a handout because they know a bunch of ignorant people that don't know their ass from a hole in the ground will fork over money to these thieves. We need some internet police please because this type of crowd funding garbage has got to stop.
All the terrible crap they spout off in this video is beyond disturbing. It is a blatant attempt, much like flow, to prey on the innocent average idiot. 
Unbelievable.
I love the one comment:
"Don't trust anything you read on the internet"-Abraham Lincoln
Classic.


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## tanksbees

You could build one yourself for about $10.


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## aldenmiller

A friend shared this with me. I suggested he buy the hive, pay for shipping and I would give him a bottle of honey...

-Alden


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## Nabber86

How about a hive that combines Thermosolar, the Flow Hive, and the Innerview viewing pane. That would have to be worth $1,500 each. 

Does crowd funding work in reverse? I don't need money to develop this super hive, I just need to raise $30,000 so I can buy 20 of them. Each contributor will get 1 jar of honey.


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## challenger

Ten bucks? Yikes! What do you think money grows on trees? Why spend that kind of money when you can beg it off of a crowd of people that, "love bees". 
What is with these people anyway? Everyone here should look for themselves on YouTube and see how many people comment, "I love bees" on videos such as the one mentioned in the OP. 
Yeah, you love bees. SO WHAT! Every time some ignorant fool comments with, "I love bees" the basement dwelling crowd fundee says, "cha-ching". 
We all have got to remember what PT Barnum said AND we have to remember that there are a lot of people that have absolutely no problem with posting a video about some sort of bee related junk and asking for money. They know full well that this is all that is needed to get the cash from the millions of people that, "love bees". 
Many would call these types unscrupulous, unethical, opportunistic and more. Personally I have much harsher descriptors for this ilk of sub human. Then again, in their circles, they are doing what's fine and proper. 



tanksbees said:


> You could build one yourself for about $10.


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## D Coates

All they're doing is throwing a lure on the pond. There are folks doing that all over the place all the time with all types of claims for all types of products. They've been doing it long before us and they'll being doing it long after us. It's up to us individually to avoid stuff like this. But there's little we can do to help the well intentioned but ill informed. The road to heck is paved with good intentions... The effort to police this type of garbage would make Sisyphus proud and would be as equally useless. Bees are hugely popular right now and they're trying to cash in on it no matter how unscrupulous. No matter what we do a fool and his(or her) money are soon parted.


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## CrazyTalk

D Coates said:


> Claims of killing off pathogens (varroa, EFB, AFB, etc) via heat (no reviewable studies) is nowhere near as sexy as turning a spigot and getting honey.


There actually are quite a few studies with heat treatment and varroa (mostly jacobsoni though) - although they usually involve caged bees and not directly in the hive. Here's an example from 2000:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00218839.2000.11101041

It seems that high temps makes them release - and increases the effectiveness of other treatments. (and yes, the price on these things is ridiculous)


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## D Coates

CrazyTalk said:


> There actually are quite a few studies with heat treatment and varroa (mostly jacobsoni though) - although they usually involve caged bees and not directly in the hive. Here's an example from 2000:
> 
> http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00218839.2000.11101041
> 
> It seems that high temps makes them release - and increases the effectiveness of other treatments. (and yes, the price on these things is ridiculous)


Yes those studies exist. However, there are no studies indicating this potential product actually does any of the things claimed though. They spent a lot of time on varroa but they had also mentioned EFB, AFB, CCD(assuming it actually existed/exists) , pesticides and parisites and showed hives being burned. The insinuation is (to me) this new hive will handle them all.


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## challenger

I think most here know that heating bees to a certain temperature will kill or release or whatever varroa mites. My beef is how "vendors" are misrepresenting a product they are begging money to bring to market. They are targeting the many bee lovers that love bees but have no idea why they love them other than by doing so they are somehow more responsible stewards of this planet. 
Its a little like the bumper sticker my daughter had on her first car, "stop genocide". Well OK, but a bumper sticker does Noth no to stop genocide.


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## jadebees

That reminds me of a famous quote,
" Many things on the Internet may be difficult to verify, or even untrue." -Abraham Lincoln.


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## RyanD

I didn't know Abraham Lincoln said that great quote


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## gruntworker

RyanD said:


> I didn't know Abraham Lincoln said that great quote


I think Lincoln also said, " Be wary of hackers from the southern states". I can't recall my source though.

In Phoenix all you have to do is take the inner cover off and Voila it's 116 degrees in the Hive. I set up those little umbrellas they place in cruise ship drinks underneath the screened bottom board to help coax the mites down.


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## TALittle

Lets face it, most people believe what they are told even if it is not true.

There are a lot of things you believe that are not true, you were told them by people you trust and you take it as fact.

When I watched the video I laughed. I dont even have bees yet and the first thing I though of was, 116f, Here in Texas it can get to 106f at mid day and I have read of mite problems here. So Smells like BS.


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## NewbeeInNH

challenger said:


> Its a little like the bumper sticker my daughter had on her first car, "stop genocide". Well OK, but a bumper sticker does Noth no to stop genocide.


I always liked "Free Tibet"


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## NewbeeInNH

We need a beesource investigative team to order a Flow Hive (almost called it a Flowbee, but that name is already taken) and this solar hive and then report results. I know some here are planning to try the Flow Hive, so that only leaves this one. Any takers?


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## Billboard

TALittle said:


> Lets face it, most people believe what they are told even if it is not true.
> 
> Thats exactly how we got our current president.


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## Daniel Y

D Coates said:


> Claims of killing off pathogens (varroa, EFB, AFB, etc) via heat (no reviewable studies)


They made no such claim. the video states that bees suffer from these. they then make claims to Varroa Distructor specifically. In addition, evidently such studies do exist. I find it interesting that the majority of the video is making claims that are exactly what TF beekeepers would claim with just as much evidence presented to support them. And they do not even cover the entire list of claims of TF beekeepers. My main concern would be the bees ability to cool a hive. I suspect this is also the most likely reason that mites are not killed when temperatures hit 106 degrees. Assuming the solar hive is capable of absorbing heat at a fast enough rate to prevent the bees from cooling it. Why would heat not be an effective treatment for Varroa?


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## NewbeeInNH

I would imagine that should their method work for reducing/eradicating varroa, the other diseases would also lessen, based on the assumption that varroa weakens the bees/colony and makes them more susceptible to other diseases.

One note about heat killing off varroa, the best mite resistant bee is the Russian, and they are from a cold climate. It's a huge jump from one thought to the other, but I wonder if heat isn't the magic bullet. Altho it could be one magic bullet I guess.

Someone is just going to have to try this. Who here has the big bucks?


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## shinbone

That is a slick, well produced video.

I would love to so easily eliminate mites from my hives, but there was no proof in the video that the Thermosolar hive actually works? I think there was no proof shown because the technology doesn't actually kill mites. It is just more "rainbows and butterflies" with cute children eating honey.


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## Daniel Y

What are others thoughts on some of the other claims. Specifically, that earlier higher levels of brood production is actually a benefit. I would tend to not see this as a benefit. In a nut shell I don't consider such influences beneficial it throws off the natural progress of the bees which I assume leads to negative consequences. I am not buying it anyway. a short period of heat will not produce continuous increased brood production. I am not so sure that brood production is influenced more by photo-period than temperature anyway.


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## NewbeeInNH

They said they've been working on this for the past 10 years. 

I am mesmerized by the graphic of those dead mites sliding off the bees.

I would be willing to try this system, because I detest chemicals. I'm going to set up a go fund me site so you all can pitch in and buy me one and I'll do the research. Sacrificially. Because on the outside chance that it could work, I would be willing to try it. I hate mites.

Edit: Reports will be coming out as people try this system. So wait a few years and see what they say. The proof is in the pudding.


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## Ottersbugs

What a cool name though- "Therma-Flow"...


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## jwcarlson

To save the money of buying a Flow Hive AND this... Just go foundationless in a deep on top... full of honey. Slap this heating gizmo on top, tilt the hive forward slightly and put a plastic tub outside the entrance. Bam... Flow Hive on a budget.


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## Slow Drone

jwcarlson said:


> To save the money of buying a Flow Hive AND this... Just go foundationless in a deep on top... full of honey. Slap this heating gizmo on top, tilt the hive forward slightly and put a plastic tub outside the entrance. Bam... Flow Hive on a budget.


:lpf:


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## Michael Bush

Well, 116 F is 47 C. Normal brood is 93 F (34 C) and according to this study >36 C caused issues. What will 47 C do?:
http://www.pnas.org/content/101/12/4268.full

"Temperature Dependence of Emergence Rate and Duration of Pupal Development. The period of postembryonic development in honey bees includes 2 prepupal stages and 9 pupal stages (sealed or capped brood) (23, 24). Emergence rates were highest between 31 and 36°C (89–100%), drastically dropped at higher and lower temperatures, and came to zero at 28 and 38°C (Table 1), largely confirming previous studies (1, 5). Pupal development was shortest between 34.5 and 37°C (10–11 days), increased at lower temperatures, and went up to almost twice the normal duration at 29°C (19–22 days). After emergence, bees reared between 32 and 36°C exhibited no obvious morphological and/or behavioral deficits. Some of the bees reared at <32°C and >36°C, however, showed malformations of their wings, stinger, proboscis, or legs. Others had no obvious morphological defects. From these groups (29, 30, 31, and 37°C), only those bees with no apparent morphological defects were used for neuroanatomical analyses.

"Immunofluorescence Labeling of Microglomeruli in the MB Calyx. Fluorophore-conjugated phalloidin, which binds specifically to F-actin (25, 26), labeled all known synaptic neuropils in the honey bee brain (Fig. 1) (21, 27). The MB calyx was among the most intensely labeled structures, and its three subdivisions (lip, collar, and basal ring) (28) could be identified easily (Figs. 1B and 2). At higher magnification, spheroidal structures of ≈3 μm in diameter became clearly visible (Fig. 1 C–E and M). These microglomeruli (MG) represent distinct synaptic complexes in the calyx neuropil, each comprising a central bouton from PN axons surrounded by many KC dendritic spines and processes from other extrinsic neurons (27, 29–31). Synapsin-IR, which is associated with synaptic vesicles, stained the central bouton of MG, whereas phalloidin labeled a ring-like surrounding region (Fig. 1 C–E). Labeling of antennal-lobe PN axons (Fig. 1 F–J) and KC dendrites (Fig. 1 K and L) combined with phalloidin labeling revealed that PN boutons occupy the central core of MG, and KC dendrites colocalize with phalloidinergic rings (Fig. K–M), indicating that F-actin is located predominantly in the dendritic compartments of MG."

Just because you don't kill the pupae does not mean you don't damage them...


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## Stephenpbird

This way of killing mites is effective and has been proved in the laboratory, as has already been stated. Sadly these people that want to make a quick buck out of it are not even presenting an original scam. Its been done already, there are a few of these efforts in Germany even using crowd funding. My favorite is called the bienensauna, yes the bee sauna. 
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/wir-retten-bienen-bienen-sauna#/
their tag line "we save the bees" and "the bees sweat themselves better". 

What is quite amusing (to my English humor) is that the bienen sauna has upset the Bee science community here no end and they are fighting back presenting proof that it is in fact BS, yes the same community that presented the "heating" idea in the first place.


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## Stephenpbird

If I remember correctly Mr Bush, you read German, the people from Bienen sauna address your concerns. 
Apparently it's all in the detail
http://www.bienensauna.de/details/


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## NewbeeInNH

Maybe the procedure could be used over winter or during times when brood rearing is very low.

"http://www.bienensauna.de/details/"

Google translate works. Kind of reminds me of boiling the frog technique.


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## melissathebruce

sqkcrk said:


> Proving he never said it is difficult, since he never said it. No one can find anything showing he did say it. But once a rumor lilke that gets started it's hard to eliminate.


This source says the quote is from a book called The Life of the Bee, first publish in 1901 by Maurice Maeterlinck: http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/352447-if-the-bee-disappeared-off-the-face-of-the-earth. 

~/Melissa


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## sqkcrk

Albert Einstein did not write that book, did he? If Maurice Maeterlinck quoted Einstein saying what he didn't say, let's see the paragraph that shows the quoite.


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## keeper

NewbeeInNH said:


> One note about heat killing off varroa, the best mite resistant bee is the Russian, and they are from a cold climate. It's a huge jump from one thought to the other, but I wonder if heat isn't the magic bullet.


Running hotter hive temps isn't a new idea in the realm of Varroa control. American Bee Journal featured a article on the subject back in the October issue of 2001. There have also been several research studies on the topic which support the claims. 

The best mite resistant bees are from Asia where the mite evolved along with the bee populations. Primorski krai is where "russian" honey bees came from, it's situated on the sea of Japan between China and Japan it's proximity to Asia is why the bees have mite tolerance.


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## GSkip

I think it is the same as other junk that is hyped on TV and the Internet. Just saw one on TV a few minutes ago the "Copper Fit" back support supposed to work miracles on your back. I call "Bull" on both!


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## NewbeeInNH

keeper said:


> The best mite resistant bees are from Asia where the mite evolved along with the bee populations. Primorski krai is where "russian" honey bees came from, it's situated on the sea of Japan between China and Japan it's proximity to Asia is why the bees have mite tolerance.


I did not know that. Interesting. Would that make the Russian bee more of an Asian bee then?


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## NewbeeInNH

GSkip said:


> I think it is the same as other junk that is hyped on TV and the Internet. Just saw one on TV a few minutes ago the "Copper Fit" back support supposed to work miracles on your back. I call "Bull" on both!


Ooh. I want one of those.


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## keeper

NewbeeInNH said:


> I did not know that. Interesting. Would that make the Russian bee more of an Asian bee then?


Actually this is the only place in the world that calls them "Russians". Everywhere else in the world they are known as "Primorskys" They are an Asian honey bee.


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## Michael Bush

>If I remember correctly Mr Bush, you read German

No, I don't read German. I have had books translated into German for me and have published some that were written in German... but that is not a skill I possess. All my in-laws speak and read German...

I read the page, however, thanks to google translate. I still think the research would support that the brood will be brain damaged.


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## jadebees

I'd like to announce a new ground breaking hive! The - Wolf-Amreht hive! It has a large tank full of honey flavored syrup, with mite nutrients. Bees never need to forage for dirty old nectar. Mites and disease flourish. A tube feeds the bees directly into a Thermaflow hive. This removes all the mites and diseases, and as an added benefit, produces a need , and market, for the Therma- flow hives, and the Wolf-Amreht hive. A hive stand contains a video player, playing the advertisements, reminding beekeepers of the need for these innovations. It's worth billions! Seeking investors.


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## NewbeeInNH

keeper said:


> Actually this is the only place in the world that calls them "Russians". Everywhere else in the world they are known as "Primorskys" They are an Asian honey bee.


Oh. My. Gosh. No wonder they aren't building up as well as I've been hoping. They haven't been understanding a single word I've been saying.

Now I have to learn Mandarin.

Gotta admit, you don't hear too many Asians named Primorsky. Does sound Russian.

(Was Sikorsky Asian too? LOL)


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## jwcarlson

Primorsky is the region of Russia, Newbee.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/P...537:0x7e7b7d06607faafe!8m2!3d45.0525641!4d135


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## NewbeeInNH

I know. Just bad joking.


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## jlaudiofan

BeeBop said:


> I don't care who you are, that's funny right there...


Yep, lots of honey on that frame


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## Rader Sidetrack

Not only is no honey on that frame pictured above, those capped cells are all _drone_ cells. And drones don't do any foraging, so they do nothing* to "increase the honey yield".




* yes, in the long run drones are necessary to have more bees, but drones don't even forage for their own food - they eat from the communal stores.


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## jennSAL

NewbeeInNH said:


> I always liked "Free Tibet"


Have a friend- from a large island in the China Sea- who had that sticker on the very back of his garage. Probably so the Chinese spies prevalent in DC would not see it when they monitored his activities with a drive by of his home (military scientist). Act of bravery on his part; wonder if he ever let any of his Chinese friends in his garage?


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## marshmasterpat

sqkcrk said:


> Albert Einstein did not write that book, did he? If Maurice Maeterlinck quoted Einstein saying what he didn't say, let's see the paragraph that shows the quoite.


sqkcrk - I always chuckle when I read these quotes. And would love to see them in the original printing. Even more so, so much of it is such ecological ignorance. 

The western hemisphere evolved without the presence of European honey bees and according to some, had bigger cities than anything in Europe, huge modernized agriculture for the time, and empires as large as the biggest in Europe of the time. 

All of this was before the arrival of European honey bees, small pox, influenza, and a few other nice things that arrived after Columbus and changed the landscape. So how did all this exist without the European honeybee's presence. 

These people making the qoutes in the 1900s were ignorant of lots of things, even the smart ones. As for if it is true today with so much alteration of the landscape and shift if crops around the world. Well, I never claimed to be a smart one, someone smarter than me would have to answer that.


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## cerezha

Daniel Y said:


> ... Why would heat not be an effective treatment for Varroa?


 Beesource fellows do not see further their nose ... sorry, nothing personal. Thermo-treatment of bees is known in Europe and Japan for good 20-30 years. In fact, it is popular method in Russia with many published books, yes books (in Russian) on this matter. There are many videos on youtube also. German company sells special boxes for thermal treatment of the bees. I am reluctant to provide any links, because, who is interested -s/he will find. You also can contact me directly if interested in this method. 
Good luck!


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## Michael Bush

>Albert Einstein did not write that book, did he? If Maurice Maeterlinck quoted Einstein saying what he didn't say, let's see the paragraph that shows the quoite.

Maeterlinck was a known plagerist. He just stole it from Einstein. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Maeterlinck#Confirmed_Plagiarism

I have not been able to find Maeterlinck's quote either... it may exist in some form somewhere, but I haven't seen it yet...


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## Michael Bush

The nearest I can find to the Einstien quote is in "The Life of the Bee" by Maeterlinck and is in chapter 104:

"You will probably more than once have seen her fluttering about the bushes, in a deserted corner of your garden, without realizing that you were carelessly watching the venerable ancestor to whom we probably owe most of our flowers and fruits (for it is actually estimated that more than a hundred thousand varieties of plants would disappear if the bees did not visit them) and possibly even our civilization, for in these mysteries all things intertwine. "


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## heaflaw

keeper said:


> Actually this is the only place in the world that calls them "Russians". Everywhere else in the world they are known as "Primorskys" They are an Asian honey bee.


The Russians or Primorskys are a European honey bee Apis mellifera)-not Asian (Apis cerana).When Russian settlers moved east into the Primorsky region around 250 years ago, they brought European honey bees with them. When European bees came into contact with Asian bees, varroa mites jumped onto the Europeans bees. The vast majority of the European colonies died, just like the vast majority of our untreated colonies died when varroa moved into the US. A few of the colonies survived and populated the Primorsky area. Researchers later brought those genetics back to Europe and to the US.

This was the first treatment free success story.


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## Western

This link may shed some light on the quote, long read, but interesting.
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/08/27/einstein-bees/


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## Redhawk

Never work as good as my geothermal system, with solar powered T'stat controlled dampers for constant air temp at the Beekeeper's selection. Cool Em off by day, warm Em by nite, crank it up for flow. It will winterize, summerize, homogenize & any other ize you can think of. Your $$ invested will not be a lost cause either, my new truck will be a testimonial to that.


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## Eduardo Gomes

More about Thermosolar Hive: http://www.talkingwithbees.com/thermosolar-hive-kills-100-of-varroa-mites

A view/hypothesis unknown to me of the positive impact of drones in preventing swarming from the inventor of the Thermosolar Hive, Roman Linhart: http://thermosolarhive.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Biologia-Antiswarming-behaviour.pdf


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## johno

Hi Eduardo, I have seen this before and a discussion did take place about large amounts of drones effecting swarm behavior. Most ridiculed the hypothesis but I felt that it should be tried before discounting. So this spring I will select drone producing hives which could influence the mating of the queens that I will rear in the spring and as most of my hives are heavily Carniolan they readily swarm and a great deal of my spring is spent on swarm prevention practices. Therefore I will reserve judgement on this theory until the summer of 2017.
Johno


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## Eduardo Gomes

johno said:


> Therefore I will reserve judgement on this theory until the summer of 2017.Johno


Johno when I read this article I got a good feeling. Like you, I'll do a little experiment and observe the results.

Can you post the link were the debate about took place?


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## kaizen

Curious if any body in the Americas stuck a piece of glass on their hive and tried this for mite control this year? I like facts not youtube videos or folklore.


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## tanksbees

kaizen said:


> Curious if any body in the Americas stuck a piece of glass on their hive and tried this for mite control this year? I like facts not youtube videos or folklore.


No, I stuck with one of the proven mite control techniques.

Just because the lid of the box is 116 degrees, doesn't mean the frames will be 116 degrees, especially when the stack grows larger or smaller. 

The bees are very good at keeping a constant temperature in the hive. The basic science behind the product doesn't add up to support their theory, and that is a massive warning sign in my eyes.

This stands in contrast to the Mite Zapper which heats only the drone frames, and from the inside out, which makes a hell of a lot more sense. Although i'm not using that product either.


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## Qvox

NewbeeInNH said:


> Oh. My. Gosh. No wonder they aren't building up as well as I've been hoping. They haven't been understanding a single word I've been saying.
> 
> Now I have to learn Mandarin.
> 
> Gotta admit, you don't hear too many Asians named Primorsky. Does sound Russian.
> 
> (Was Sikorsky Asian too? LOL)


It's my understanding that Russian bees are descendants of regular european bees moved to eastern Russia a couple of centuries ago. They're expression of the hygienic trait is because they've evolved with varroa longer. That's all. Over a century or so, the hives that expressed the hygienic gene survived, and those that didn't died. 

Even our mut bees have the hygienic gene, it's just that enough time hasn't passed to select for it. That's the primary argument for natural beekeeping. The idea is to let nature run it's course and nature will fix the problem. 

But if you're trying to run a profitable operation it's tough to make the choice of sitting by and watching hives die, waiting for the gene to naturally express. Varroa is here to stay. Until the bees evolve to live with them, all other solutions are short term. 

I don't anything about this thermosolar hive, except that if all we had to do was raise the temp of our hives above a 103 degrees, there'd be simpler, and more cost effective ways to do that. 

I like to keep an open mind, but the last time I checked Varroa was present in a lot of areas that get above 103 degrees naturally. It seems to me that beekeepers in the southwest wouldn't have a varroa problem if it were that simple.

...but I never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed, maybe I'm missing something.


----------



## Riverderwent

Qvox said:


> ...but I never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed, maybe I'm missing something.


Seem like a keen edge to me.


----------



## WesternWilson

At the risk of being pelted with rotten tomatoes, I have to back up cerezha on this one. In our club we looked into all the information on the Thermosolar sites, alas their info is spread across a large number of pages, but happily it is in English. They do have some credible research to back up their claims, and as for the frame of drone comb photo, they do use drone flooding (getting the queens to raise much, much more drone brood than normal) to control swarming. This, counter-intuitively, also resulted in increased honey yields.

The team takes some pains to explain that they did not just concoct a hive that heats up. They found they had to test a number of films and paints to get the kind of long, slow heating that was both safe and effective. 

The proof is in the pudding, of course, so we decided to sign on and try out one of these setups. There is a lot of weird stuff out there, to be sure. But this one and this team sounded more credible than most, and if it works...woot! I was willing to give it a try. Once we get a season under our belts I will write up our experience. If nothing else we can put this under the list of what doesn't work, and keep looking elsewhere.

For anyone interested, one of our members, Tim Trudel, wrote up a condensed version of the Thermosolar hive literature for our club newsletter:
_
The contents of this article are the from the
developer’s website thermosolarhive.com and the
American Bee Journal (ABJ) August 2015 issue.

The thermosolar hive is a complete hive designed to
treat Varroa mites using only solar heating.
It was developed in the Czech Republic by Dr. Roman
Linhart, a beekeeper of 28 years with 40-
50 colonies and a bee researcher for 20 years.
To use the Thermosolar hive, four treatments per
year are sufficient to control mites with no
additional chemical treatments. The hive consists of
special brood boxes with solar glass windows and a
special solar hive cover and insulated lid. The hive
body and lid are insulated to help retain heat during
“thermo-therapy”.

How it works: Research has shown that mites
cannot survive sustained (two hour) temperatures of
40°C/*104F* and stop reproducing at temperatures above
35.5°C. The hive was developed to allow treatment
in remote areas without electricity or other tools
using only solar heating.

Ten years of development have resulted in the
Thermosolar hive. Special glass coatings and
interior insulation allow the hive to heat slowly to
treatment temperature, even with the bees
actively cooling the hive. Two temperature probes
monitor temperatures in the upper brood box.
Treatment needs to be done with no honey supers on
the hive - spring and late summer.

Two treatments, 7--14 days apart are required each
season. All the brood needs to be combined into the
top box for treatment. A gradual heating is
necessary. Monitoring by the beekeeper is required
to stop active solar heating once treatment
temperature is reached throughout the brood box to
avoid over heating. The thermosolar “ceiling” is the
main source of heat, but the windows on the boxes
are necessary to assist and maintain the treatment
temperatures for the two-hour treatment.

Typical treatment: Pick a day with no more than
20% cloud cover and expected temperatures to be 12
—20°C. Attach the two thermometer sensors in the
wax at the top and bottom of a center brood frame.
Starting about 9:00 AM, remove the cover over the
thermo-ceiling. Monitor the temperatures of both top
and bottom sensors while the temperature rises
(about 2--2.5 hours). The top temperature will rise
the most. The goal is to get both sensors to at least
40° C without the top temperature getting above 47°
C/*117F*. When the top reaches 47°C or when
both temperatures reach 40°C, replace the lid over
the thermal ceiling. As soon as both temperatures
reach 40°C, start timing the treatment for two
hours. At temperatures above 40°C, the foragers will
move to the lower boxes. Nurse bees will remain
with the brood and tolerate the higher temperatures
easily. They maintain the necessary humidity of the
brood nest. Most of the mites will be on house bees
and in the brood nest and will be killed by the
treatment. (About 80-90%) Any mites that are on the
bees in the lower box and on foragers outside the
hive will move to the brood in about five days. A
second treatment 7--14 days later will kill the
remaining mites.

Other benefits of the Thermosolar hive: Even with
the thermosolar ceiling closed, there is a modest
heat gain from the windows on the boxes. This heat
gain in spring provides a 2-4 week head start in
development. The extra heat also reduces the
amount of honey necessary to maintain the brood
nest temperature. The honey harvest in a
Thermosolar hive is increased compared to regular
hives in the same location. Also, any time the brood
temperature is increased above 35.5°C, mite
reproduction is halted.

Multiple hives can be treated by one Thermosolar
hive. The bees and brood frames need to be moved
from the conventional hive into the Thermosolar hive
and the two treatments performed. A bit of work,
but the backyard beekeeper could to this for a few
hives.

Comments: I believe that this hive will work here in
western Washington. Our latitude is one degree south
of the Czech Republic. I know we can find two sunny
days in spring and fall to treat each hive. The
detailed research results on the website show both
the killing of mites in the hive, as well as the
considerably reduced rate of their reproduction
throughout the summer.
Read the research on the web site. This is an
effective, non-toxic, chemical-free mite treatment.
We can now get the miticide residues out of our wax.
Hopefully we can now end the treat/treatment free
debate and join forces and work the remaining issues
together. If this hive/methodology catches on,
hopefully we can have hives produced locally and the
price will come down. [The high cost of the
Thermosolar hive is one reason it's been met with a
big dose of skepticism. --BB Ed.]
————————————————————————————————-
What inspired this hive? Over a period of time, Dr
Linhart noticed some feral bees flying into the attic
space under a tin roof above a cafe he frequented.
When they survived into the third year and did not
appear to succumb to Varroa mites, he asked the
clerk how long they had been there. Seventeen
years!! On hot days, there was always a beard
outside the attic as they left to cool off. One day, he
caught a swarm from this hive and happily moved
these “survivor” bees into his apiary to gain from the
good genetics. Unfortunately, once out of the attic,
they were infested with mites like all the other
colonies. It was the hot attic providing periodic mite
treatments, not a strain of survivor bees.
_


----------



## fatshark

Has anyone tried this with a simple heating element in a polystyrene hive? 

I've previously used a stack of poly supers and a 100W light bulb as a temporary honey warming cabinet. It strikes me that it would be easier - at least as 'proof of principle' for those with power in their apiaries - to have a thermostatically-controlled heating element added to individual hives. The Thermosolar hive appears to need manual control of the 'heating'. $650 is a lot of investment to sit around for most of the season when it's only required twice. 

I'll be interested to know how you get on and if it works ...


----------



## Qvox

WesternWilson said:


> At the risk of being pelted with rotten tomatoes, I have to back up cerezha on this one. In our club we looked into all the information on the Thermosolar sites, alas their info is spread across a large number of pages, but happily it is in English. They do have some credible research to back up their claims, and as for the frame of drone comb photo, they do use drone flooding (getting the queens to raise much, much more drone brood than normal) to control swarming. This, counter-intuitively, also resulted in increased honey yields.
> 
> The team takes some pains to explain that they did not just concoct a hive that heats up. They found they had to test a number of films and paints to get the kind of long, slow heating that was both safe and effective.
> 
> The proof is in the pudding, of course, so we decided to sign on and try out one of these setups. There is a lot of weird stuff out there, to be sure. But this one and this team sounded more credible than most, and if it works...woot! I was willing to give it a try. Once we get a season under our belts I will write up our experience. If nothing else we can put this under the list of what doesn't work, and keep looking elsewhere.
> 
> For anyone interested, one of our members, Tim Trudel, wrote up a condensed version of the Thermosolar hive literature for our club newsletter:
> _
> The contents of this article are the from the
> developer’s website thermosolarhive.com and the
> American Bee Journal (ABJ) August 2015 issue.
> 
> The thermosolar hive is a complete hive designed to
> treat Varroa mites using only solar heating.
> It was developed in the Czech Republic by Dr. Roman
> Linhart, a beekeeper of 28 years with 40-
> 50 colonies and a bee researcher for 20 years.
> To use the Thermosolar hive, four treatments per
> year are sufficient to control mites with no
> additional chemical treatments. The hive consists of
> special brood boxes with solar glass windows and a
> special solar hive cover and insulated lid. The hive
> body and lid are insulated to help retain heat during
> “thermo-therapy”.
> 
> How it works: Research has shown that mites
> cannot survive sustained (two hour) temperatures of
> 40°C/*104F* and stop reproducing at temperatures above
> 35.5°C. The hive was developed to allow treatment
> in remote areas without electricity or other tools
> using only solar heating.
> 
> Ten years of development have resulted in the
> Thermosolar hive. Special glass coatings and
> interior insulation allow the hive to heat slowly to
> treatment temperature, even with the bees
> actively cooling the hive. Two temperature probes
> monitor temperatures in the upper brood box.
> Treatment needs to be done with no honey supers on
> the hive - spring and late summer.
> 
> Two treatments, 7--14 days apart are required each
> season. All the brood needs to be combined into the
> top box for treatment. A gradual heating is
> necessary. Monitoring by the beekeeper is required
> to stop active solar heating once treatment
> temperature is reached throughout the brood box to
> avoid over heating. The thermosolar “ceiling” is the
> main source of heat, but the windows on the boxes
> are necessary to assist and maintain the treatment
> temperatures for the two-hour treatment.
> 
> Typical treatment: Pick a day with no more than
> 20% cloud cover and expected temperatures to be 12
> —20°C. Attach the two thermometer sensors in the
> wax at the top and bottom of a center brood frame.
> Starting about 9:00 AM, remove the cover over the
> thermo-ceiling. Monitor the temperatures of both top
> and bottom sensors while the temperature rises
> (about 2--2.5 hours). The top temperature will rise
> the most. The goal is to get both sensors to at least
> 40° C without the top temperature getting above 47°
> C/*117F*. When the top reaches 47°C or when
> both temperatures reach 40°C, replace the lid over
> the thermal ceiling. As soon as both temperatures
> reach 40°C, start timing the treatment for two
> hours. At temperatures above 40°C, the foragers will
> move to the lower boxes. Nurse bees will remain
> with the brood and tolerate the higher temperatures
> easily. They maintain the necessary humidity of the
> brood nest. Most of the mites will be on house bees
> and in the brood nest and will be killed by the
> treatment. (About 80-90%) Any mites that are on the
> bees in the lower box and on foragers outside the
> hive will move to the brood in about five days. A
> second treatment 7--14 days later will kill the
> remaining mites.
> 
> Other benefits of the Thermosolar hive: Even with
> the thermosolar ceiling closed, there is a modest
> heat gain from the windows on the boxes. This heat
> gain in spring provides a 2-4 week head start in
> development. The extra heat also reduces the
> amount of honey necessary to maintain the brood
> nest temperature. The honey harvest in a
> Thermosolar hive is increased compared to regular
> hives in the same location. Also, any time the brood
> temperature is increased above 35.5°C, mite
> reproduction is halted.
> 
> Multiple hives can be treated by one Thermosolar
> hive. The bees and brood frames need to be moved
> from the conventional hive into the Thermosolar hive
> and the two treatments performed. A bit of work,
> but the backyard beekeeper could to this for a few
> hives.
> 
> Comments: I believe that this hive will work here in
> western Washington. Our latitude is one degree south
> of the Czech Republic. I know we can find two sunny
> days in spring and fall to treat each hive. The
> detailed research results on the website show both
> the killing of mites in the hive, as well as the
> considerably reduced rate of their reproduction
> throughout the summer.
> Read the research on the web site. This is an
> effective, non-toxic, chemical-free mite treatment.
> We can now get the miticide residues out of our wax.
> Hopefully we can now end the treat/treatment free
> debate and join forces and work the remaining issues
> together. If this hive/methodology catches on,
> hopefully we can have hives produced locally and the
> price will come down. [The high cost of the
> Thermosolar hive is one reason it's been met with a
> big dose of skepticism. --BB Ed.]
> ————————————————————————————————-
> What inspired this hive? Over a period of time, Dr
> Linhart noticed some feral bees flying into the attic
> space under a tin roof above a cafe he frequented.
> When they survived into the third year and did not
> appear to succumb to Varroa mites, he asked the
> clerk how long they had been there. Seventeen
> years!! On hot days, there was always a beard
> outside the attic as they left to cool off. One day, he
> caught a swarm from this hive and happily moved
> these “survivor” bees into his apiary to gain from the
> good genetics. Unfortunately, once out of the attic,
> they were infested with mites like all the other
> colonies. It was the hot attic providing periodic mite
> treatments, not a strain of survivor bees.
> _



Hey man, I'm all for trying out new ideas. But it still begs the question. 

If the efficacy of a few "hot hours" killed varroa, how does varroa survive in regions of the world that naturally get back to back days above 104F? Wouldn't varroa be none existent in hot regions around the world https://www.currentresults.com/Weather-Extremes/hottest-cities-in-the-world.php?

I know there are beekeepers in the middle east, and I've read the challenges of keeping bees alive in such hot climates, yet varroa is still a problem. The average daily high in Phoenix Arizona is 104F or higher for three months out of the year, and yet varroa is present. 


So again, I'm no rocket surgeon, but what am I missing? Instead of buying an expensive Thermosolar hive, why not just experiment in a region that gets hot. Or better yet reach out to a beekeeper in Phoenix or some area that regularly gets above 104F?

I'm open for some education.


----------



## Daniel Y

Qvox said:


> Hey man, I'm all for trying out new ideas. But it still begs the question.
> 
> If the efficacy of a few "hot hours" killed varroa, how does varroa survive in regions of the world that naturally get back to back days above 104F? Wouldn't varroa be none existent in hot regions around the world https://www.currentresults.com/Weather-Extremes/hottest-cities-in-the-world.php?
> 
> I know there are beekeepers in the middle east, and I've read the challenges of keeping bees alive in such hot climates, yet varroa is still a problem. The average daily high in Phoenix Arizona is 104F or higher for three months out of the year, and yet varroa is present.
> 
> 
> So again, I'm no rocket surgeon, but what am I missing? Instead of buying an expensive Thermosolar hive, why not just experiment in a region that gets hot. Or better yet reach out to a beekeeper in Phoenix or some area that regularly gets above 104F?
> 
> I'm open for some education.


Mainly because my hives are not in Arizona. So rather than buy a device to heat up the hive. bear the expense of moving my hives? Makes it a bit hard to manage them being 400 miles or so away. It's not a question of if heat kills mites. it is a question of how to get a hive warmed up enough but no to much to kill them. As you say they can keep a hive cool in 104 degree temps. so it is not like it is easy. Maybe requiring something specifically designed to get it done. Just saying maybe. Plus Arizona is not 104 degrees year round. even this thing requires 4 treatments a year. gotta think about the mites in between the hot spells. Do hives get killed by mites at 104 degree periods of the year?


----------



## WesternWilson

Qvox said:


> Hey man, I'm all for trying out new ideas. But it still begs the question.
> 
> If the efficacy of a few "hot hours" killed varroa, how does varroa survive in regions of the world that naturally get back to back days above 104F? Wouldn't varroa be none existent in hot regions around the world


There is a paragraph or two in Dr. Linhart's postings that answer that question...when they first started to experiment with raising the temperature of the brood nest beyond its normal limits (and note, only by a few more degrees), they had a terrible time as the house bees are fantastically efficient at keeping the temperature just where they want it (35C/95F). He mentions it took them a long time and many failed strategies to figure out how to raise the temperature to 40C/104F and keep it there for the time needed.

This makes me wonder a bit...the team also found that raising the broodnest temperature by only half a degree C to 35.5C, and keeping it there, mite reproduction was halted. I wonder if some of the beekeepers who report they have Varroa resistant bees actually have hive locations and/or configurations that heat up the broodnest just enough to slow down mite reproductive rates.

If you halt mite reproduction for a time (as in brood breaks, although in this case you would not lose the brood time) you do delay the impact of increasing mite numbers....it helps, just not for long.

This would also explain the phenomenom of what are thought to be resistant bees being sold and then found to be not resistant at all in their new location....it was not the bees, but their hotter than average broodnest setup.

I don't know...but it does make me wonder. Anyway, we will give the TS hive a try and see what happens. Although it seems very expensive, it functions as both a normal hive and/or you can rotate your other colonies through the TS "box" to experience the treatment mode. And if I do my math right, the base cost for a Langstroth outer cover, three boxes and a screened bottom board would be around $200?? So it is only fair to deduct that from the base price of the TS hive. Now our roll of the dice is somewhat less expensive, but our up-side is that we might find this hive works as claimed, and we finally have a non-toxic, effective form of Varroa control.


----------



## Gypsi

BeeBop said:


> I don't care who you are, that's funny right there...


solid drone brood, gonna make a lot of honey


----------



## WesternWilson

Gypsi said:


> solid drone brood, gonna make a lot of honey


Well as I said, the proof is in the pudding. The Thermosolar team uses massive drone flooding to control swarming, paper is interesting. They found, to their surprise, that this high drone load did not drain hive resources and that honey harvests were equal or larger than normal. The explanation was that with so many drones contributing heat to the broodnest, more worker bees were freed up to go forage (as brood heating takes priority).


----------



## Gypsi

that makes sense actually. However I live in Texas, my hives are in full sun, and I let them go through broodbreak in the heat of summer. Hot enough for me.


----------



## Qvox

Daniel Y said:


> Mainly because my hives are not in Arizona. So rather than buy a device to heat up the hive. bear the expense of moving my hives? Makes it a bit hard to manage them being 400 miles or so away. It's not a question of if heat kills mites. it is a question of how to get a hive warmed up enough but no to much to kill them. As you say they can keep a hive cool in 104 degree temps. so it is not like it is easy. Maybe requiring something specifically designed to get it done. Just saying maybe. Plus Arizona is not 104 degrees year round. even this thing requires 4 treatments a year. gotta think about the mites in between the hot spells. Do hives get killed by mites at 104 degree periods of the year?


I'm sorry, I don't think I made myself clear. I wasn't suggesting that we all move our hives to Phoenix Arizona, I'm just curious how Varroa survives a summer there. The average daytime high in Phoenix is 104F or above for three months out of the year. 

Where does the mite survive for those three months? 

I freely admit I'm no scientist, so I don't have a wealth of knowledge on the biology of varroa. But the mites exist in that environment, and the hives have to get well above their temperature tolerances for days during the summer. So they have to have some tricks up their sleeves to survive back to back days above their temperature tolerance. 

How do they do that? Where in that environment do they continue their lifecycle?


----------



## Qvox

The Thermosolar folks need a better English editor. Trying to read the technical details page is like reading a 419 scam letter from Nigeria. Can anyone point me to a good review of their product technology?

Is this basically a solar panel attached to hive heater on the bottom board, or are their heating elements throughout the hive?


----------



## Redhawk

Why do we always think like humans? If it's 104 all day the bees are more than capible of cooling the hive. And remember, 104 in AZ is not the 104 we have in Tn. Add in humidity. But if the hive reaches 105, they are working their stingers off to cool the hive. I bet the t'solar reaches higher temps in short time. If you leave the solar heater on for longer than spec'd the bees will kill themselves trying their best to cool the hive. I'm sure there are "cared for" colonies left unattended that get fried in Arizona. How many posts are saying, "hey, I screwed up big time!!!"


----------



## WesternWilson

I think somewhere in the TS literature they mention that a key finding was realizing the hive must be brought up to treatment level temperatures slowly. I take it that gives the bees time to adjust. In addition, they also state it is only the brood box that is taken to 40C/104F (it is placed in the top position for treatment) and the nurse bees are able to tolerate the heat. The older bees migrate down into the hive where it is cooler and that is part of the reason a second heat treatment is given, to target the rest of the mites, which by then have migrated into brood.

The heat source is entirely solar, but it does pass through windows with a film applied, and I believe the hive interior is also treated with a paint of some sort.


----------



## Daniel Y

Qvox said:


> I'm sorry, I don't think I made myself clear. I wasn't suggesting that we all move our hives to Phoenix Arizona, I'm just curious how Varroa survives a summer there. The average daytime high in Phoenix is 104F or above for three months out of the year.
> 
> Where does the mite survive for those three months?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> One the ability of the bees to cool their hive. The solar hive had to specifically overcome this hurdle. Two heat gain through a glass box would be extremely higher than a wood hive setting in full sun in a 104 degree climate. Just like the sun backing you through your car window. There was a balance between temperature increase they claim to have struck. to much for the bees to keep up with not enough to kill the whole hive off. and you have to monitor it for the full two hours. deal killer for me. People gripe about a minute to treat a hive. camp out next to the hive for 2 hours? I'm thinking not.
> 
> second even if mites do not thrive or even survive during that three month period. there are still 9 months of the year they will do just fine. Mosquitoes do not survive winter here. but rest assured they are abundant as soon as the climate is suitable for them to do so.
> 
> Keep in mind that surviving and reproducing are not the same thing. Some mites could very well find a place suitable to survive sustained 104 degree temps and be fully ready to reproduce ass soon as conditions are suitable.
> 
> Sort of like if you have a headache and take an aspirin. you are up and ready to go pain free right? oh maybe not maybe aspirins only work so well. Nothing is just like that in the real world.


----------



## WesternWilson

I would be happy to putter around the beeyard for two hours in exchange for an effective, non-toxic mite kill.


----------



## Qvox

Daniel Y said:


> Qvox said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, I don't think I made myself clear. I wasn't suggesting that we all move our hives to Phoenix Arizona, I'm just curious how Varroa survives a summer there. The average daytime high in Phoenix is 104F or above for three months out of the year.
> 
> Where does the mite survive for those three months?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> One the ability of the bees to cool their hive. The solar hive had to specifically overcome this hurdle. Two heat gain through a glass box would be extremely higher than a wood hive setting in full sun in a 104 degree climate. Just like the sun backing you through your car window. There was a balance between temperature increase they claim to have struck. to much for the bees to keep up with not enough to kill the whole hive off. and you have to monitor it for the full two hours. deal killer for me. People gripe about a minute to treat a hive. camp out next to the hive for 2 hours? I'm thinking not.
> 
> second even if mites do not thrive or even survive during that three month period. there are still 9 months of the year they will do just fine. Mosquitoes do not survive winter here. but rest assured they are abundant as soon as the climate is suitable for them to do so.
> 
> Keep in mind that surviving and reproducing are not the same thing. Some mites could very well find a place suitable to survive sustained 104 degree temps and be fully ready to reproduce ass soon as conditions are suitable.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except I understand how mosquitoes do it. Some actually hibernate, and others have winter hardy eggs. I'm literally asking, where in the environment , in places where temperatures routinely rise well above 104F, do the mites survive.
> 
> I'm not trying to make a point, I'm asking because I don't know.
> 
> Do their different lifecycle stages have different temperature tolerances? For example can the eggs survive higher temperatures? Do they escape the hive and burrow into the earth, or something. Because if you're telling me 104 degrees kills them entirely, then how do they survive in places like Arizona, where highs are routinely above 104F for months on end. I don't understand how they ever come back in such places that are hostile to their survival.
Click to expand...


----------



## crofter

Qvox; I am thinking that the bees are essentially motivated to maintain central area of the colony wherever brood is or frames are being drawn at a temperature very close to 93 F. By evaporative cooling or muscular conversion if heat is called for. They will maintain this temperature or die trying! 

I dont know whether *brood* will survive the extended period of temperatures the solar hive manages to attain by overwhelming the bees cooling capabilities. Brood break would have a positive influence on mite control anyway. The practice of heating just the bees (no brood) has been used for a long time to kill the mites ON bees. The length of time and difficulty to maintain the precise temperatures by solar means, plus the frequency of treatment required, seems to me to be a convoluted and expensive mite treatment.

Do a google search on Rube Goldberg machines


----------



## WesternWilson

Qvox, the nurse bees are very, very good at maintaining the brood frames at their preferred temperature of 35C. They are fully capable of moving the air around the hive, even when it is 104F outside, such that the interior of the hive is much cooler. They also maintain a specific humidity, which must be quite a feat in the dry air of the desert. Beekeeepers in those areas must have to ensure a fresh water supply.


----------



## Qvox

Thanks Crofter and WesternWilson

Thanks for the response. Maybe my question is so ignorant that it's hard for people with more knowledge, to understand, but I'll try again. It's been observed that varroa mites die at temperatures above 103F. It's also been observed that their reproductive cycle is disrupted at temperatures much lower. So my question is, how does varroa survive in regions that have high temperatures above 103F?

I get that the bees are masters of their environment, and control hive temperatures. But there is a limit to what they can do. However, in places that get triple digit temperatures the bees can tolerate much higher temperatures than the mites. So, how do the mites survive? 

Why isn't varroa wiped out after a summer in Arizona?

I guess I'm trying to understand the efficacy of this idea, and the varroa destructor.


----------



## WesternWilson

Qvox, you are underestimating the capabilities of honey bees....who evolved in a very warm part of the world, and during times when the world was a much warmer place...

There is no question Varroa do quite well in hot weather environments, a testament to how well the bees maintain optimal temperatures and humidities within the hive.

Here is a good excerpt from a paper by Southwick and Heldmaier:
_
Thermoregulation at
high temperature
In order for colonies to maintain optimal
temperature for brood development
(32-36C) in the central portion
of the nests (Seeley and Heinrich
1981), they must employ cooling
mechanisms when air temperatures
are high. As temperatures rise above 15C, the bee cluster disperses.
At
higher temperatures, colony ventilation
is increased by an organized fanning
of wings (Hazelhoff 1954, Hess
1926, Southwick and Moritz 1987).
Some fanning bees orient themselves
at the nest entrance, thereby increasing
the exchange of nest and outside
air at rates as high as 60 L/min.
*To further combat overheating, forager
bees seek water sources and carry
water back to the nest in their
honey stomachs (Lindauer 1954).
Small droplets of water are placed
throughout the hive and on the walls
of cells containing eggs and larvae.*
The latent heat loss due to water
evaporation (540 cal/g) provides
cooling, and the moisture keeps the
larvae from drying. In addition, a
worker bee holds a thin film of water
with its proboscis, as it does when
concentrating nectar. The water evaporates
rapidly, further cooling the
nest.
When these cooling measures are
insufficient, numerous bees vacate the
nest and cluster outside the entrance.
A sufficient force of bees is left inside
to continue the ventilation and evaporation
activities protecting eggs and
larvae._


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## Daniel Y

Qvox said:


> Daniel Y said:
> 
> 
> 
> Except I understand how mosquitoes do it. Some actually hibernate, and others have winter hardy eggs. I'm literally asking, where in the environment , in places where temperatures routinely rise well above 104F, do the mites survive.
> 
> I'm not trying to make a point, I'm asking because I don't know.
> 
> Do their different lifecycle stages have different temperature tolerances? For example can the eggs survive higher temperatures? Do they escape the hive and burrow into the earth, or something. Because if you're telling me 104 degrees kills them entirely, then how do they survive in places like Arizona, where highs are routinely above 104F for months on end. I don't understand how they ever come back in such places that are hostile to their survival.
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to be thinking that because the air temperate is 104 that the hive is 104. It is not. If it where you would be right. not only would the mites not survive neither would the bees or their brood. The hive is no more 104 degrees that your house would be or the car you are driving in would be for the exact same reason different method possibly. Bees cool a hive with evaporative cooling. And they are capable of doing so even at extreme temps. otherwise they would not be keepable in those climates. They have proven they can be. Now keep in mind brood temp for bees is 96 degrees so cool to them is not the same thing as it is to us. You would be turning on the ac long before the bees even care. In addition temps may be 104 according to the weather broadcast. but I assure you the temps is not a blanket of 104 degree temperature. I have been looking at the radar for our area this morning. we are going to have a flood. it shows a mottled patch of rain with areas scattered through it of snow. that indicates a fluctuation of temps above and below freezing. So 104 in full sun is not going to get a hive in the shade to 104. There may be a breeze that prevents many hives from reaching 104. plus then it has to get to 104 inside the hive down to the brood nest. one thing to be 104 on your skin another to be 104 at your core. You would be in the hospital about then. So even you with limited exposure even to full sun at 104 do not get to 104. So many many reasons that a hive does not get to 104 just because it is a 104 degree day.
Click to expand...


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## Michael Bush

>Now keep in mind brood temp for bees is 96 degrees

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0008967

"Honeybee larvae and pupae are extremely stenothermic, i.e. they strongly depend on accurate regulation of brood nest temperature for proper development (33–36°C)"

That is 91.4 F to 96.8 F. So 96 is at the high end. Usually it's 93 F. But it certainly COULD be 96 F at times


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## beepro

Inside my homemade small fridge incubator, I can raise the temp. to 200F. In a little bee experiment I have yet to try, I 
want to know what temp. should I raise it to without killing the cap broods or melting the comb? Also, at what stage of the cap broods development should I try this heat treatment? The little fridge can hold up to 4 frames of cap broods without the attaching bees enough to make a small nuc without the mites if this experiment work out.


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