# What can beekeepers realistically expect with VSH queens?



## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Hi Joe,

I have had many F1 VSH queens from multiple breeders [none of your breeding however] and none have been able to withstand the mites, particularly in the fall, when it's most important IMO. I do alcohol washes from time to time and especially if a hive is not doing well. Often I get low mite counts, marginal nosema and just write it off to a poor queen. I only buy mite resistant queens and my expectations are they will keep mites in check during the summer, produce decently and survive the winter. I don't ask them to prevent the fall mite buildup I seem to get every fall. I'm still waiting for that magic queen which will produce abundant honey, keep mites at bay and have no nosema or virus issues.


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## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

Think much of it lies with the expectation that VSH negates all need for treatment irregardless of any outside factors or vectors. If hives are found "mysteriously" dead we try to trouble shoot the situation and the first question becomes that of disease management (eg: mites). Not blaming VSH, but simply trouble shooting the problem. Quite often, it comes down to new or inexperienced Beeks thinking that just because they bought "special" bees there's no need to manage/treat. I was in that bucket myself until the great mite in the sky nibbled a few hives.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Good thread Joe! 

I believe that there's a lot of variability within the "VSH" world. I also believe that there is the potential to do more harm than good by releasing stock that really hasn't been field toughened. Beekeepers purchasing VSH stock, particularly new beekeepers, need to "trust but verify" and not simply assume that because someone claims VSH traits that the bees do indeed have these favorable traits. Another misconception is that some believe that you can buy a couple F1 daughters and never have to boost the genetics ever again, regardless of your local stock. I also see some on beesource that trash VSH bees because its not a dominant trait, like somehow its supposed to be different than the myriad of other additive traits that we all seek out and import. 

I've been working with VSH bees since Glenn Apiaries first released the stock, and I've seen a broad spectrum of bees. I've purchased VSH bees from 4 different vendors and have had marginal success. (BTW, I'm not going to disclose the names of any breeders). Some couldn't brood up, others were constantly superseding, but occasionally I would find one that had promise. These had the ability to brood up, make good honey yields, and survive in my local climate without treatments. These are the ones that I'm propagating. Using II and semen importation, I'm collaborating with others who are serious about mite tolerant bees and know a good bee from a mediocre one. 

Since you seem to be somewhat of a skeptic, I'll make you an offer. I'll send you 5-10 of my best 2016 open mated VSH queens. In return you'll send me the same number of your best and we'll attempt to objectively compare the performance. Are you in? I'm sure the beesource community would love to see how this plays out.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

In mid to late summer I see the shotgun pattern in brood when the mite population has built up to numbers that make my bees begin to remove pupa. The bees do not seem to want to remove the pupa when there are only small numbers of breeding mites. The spotty brood problem is not caused by the VSH trait, it is caused by the breeding mites building to the point it triggers the removal trait in the VSH bees.

I always suspect mites in any colony that is not doing well because that is the most common reason, then virus problems, followed by EFB, and then Nosema. VSH and Hygienic traits are something a colony needs if it is to survive varroa infestations with minimum treatments by the beekeeper. They buy the time the colony needs to develop resistance to the virus and bacteria infections that usually kill the colony overwinter.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Thanks for the input everyone! I realize there are beekeepers out there that have a better and more current understanding of the VSH that is available than I do. My concern is that new/novice beekeepers jump in without testing the waters so to speak. I do not know of any cure all, VSH or otherwise. Most things seem to be additive.



AstroBee said:


> Since you seem to be somewhat of a skeptic, I'll make you an offer. I'll send you 5-10 of my best 2016 open mated VSH queens. In return you'll send me the same number of your best and we'll attempt to objectively compare the performance. Are you in? I'm sure the beesource community would love to see how this plays out.


Astro, that is a very generous offer, but I am not sure what I would do with the queens. I have worked with SMR, then VSH from the USDA on several occasions and tried to give them a fair opportunity as I generally like to try new strains. We push all of our breeders by forgoing treatments, and some hold up pretty well, but I do not consider them to be mite resistant. My goal is just a little better than average...


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

If you get a VSH II Breeder, and they mite out at the end of the season, what does that say? Not to say the daughter queens might perform better as an F1, but still.... That being said, other breeders might have performed ok sans treatments.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

JRG13 said:


> If you get a VSH II Breeder, and they mite out at the end of the season, what does that say?


It might say that you had an extreme number of mites to begin with and no amount of VSH would fix the situation, or the surrounding environment was so heavily mite infested that you just have to treat, or the II breeder was not as good as claimed. I see the potential for all of these outcomes.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

I've bought about 15 VSH queens from two different dealers. I did not find that they could survive the level of Mites here in Florida without treatments. I will still buy VSH queens based on cost, and other characteristics of the queens, but I don't buy them BECAUSE they are VSH...


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Astro, they got a late spring treatment and started off as a small cluster and grew to about 15 frames of bees. Queens were received late in the season in 2014 and these queens were overwintered with small clusters and treated in fall as well with Apivar. The late spring treatment was to reset the clock to see how well they hold up. I'll be testing daughters this year to see how they do, I didn't quite get around to this queen last year. The other queen shows some promise though and most of her daughters overwintered w/o treatment as well, but I've received other VSH stocks and it doesn't hold up well w/o other forms of management (i.e. treating) in this area. One queen may have more VSH expression than the other as well, as her pedigree is a cross to a high VSH line, but both lines are VSH to begin with.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

My vsh queens must have been too much vsh because more brood was pulled than wasn't and not for mites but apparently for practice. If you are happy with them I am happy for you, but I don't want any anymore.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Sometimes I think new beekeepers are confused by "hygenic" actions that are natural to all bees. They see bees hauling a pupa out, and it's automatic evidence of mite-controlling hygenic behavior. I'm not so sure.

My bees are all local swarm-mutts, and the locally mated daughters of those swarm-mutt queens. (I happen to live in area with a strong feral colony presence, so I have no info as to the origin of my three founding swarms which showed up here on their initiative. No local beeks were reporting swarm losses at that time.) From time to time I will see my bees hauling out a pupa and I make a big effort to snag it. So far I have never seen a mite on any of them; on perhaps four dozen rejected pupae examined over three summers. I only very occasionally will see a drone pupae exposed by chance during hive routine maintenance which has a mite on it. I set aside any opened drone cells for checking when I'm done in the hive, but I don't drone-cell sample, per se.

I doubt my bees have one lick of human-mediated VSH genetic traits, though they clearly have some natural tendency there, for inscrutable reasons of their own, and not necessarily due to mites. (As an aside, some of my colonies are clean house freaks in other areas, and some are slatterns in that regard. I should pay more attention to see if there is some consistency there.)

My bees need modest but carefully applied treatment for mites in order to survive from year to year, much less thrive at the levels I aim for. As some active beekeepers report, the VSH bees may also need at least some treatment during periods of high pressure. Perhaps I am just rationalizing, but I'm happy to stick with my sturdy, high-achieving, mutt-girls who need some treatment, rather than go for nominally VSH bees that may have other issues. 

Enj.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

JSL said:


> There was another recent thread asking about what to expect with VSH queens, but I did not wish to hijack the discussion... I find it interesting/troubling that many have the expectation that buying "VSH" queens will provide a measurable level of Varroa protection. However, in the other recent thread, *a beekeeper posted a picture of a brood frame* from a "VSH Italian" queen and asked is this typical?


That was me 

And no, I would not have considered this to be a hijack at all; in fact it's very much on topic. I'm very much a beginner, and I probably drank the Kool-Aid in thinking that a VSH queen was going to be a sort of magic bullet. I'll do a mite count this weekend and report my findings. 

I didn't requeen in order to get VSH characteristics, but since I was requeening a very hot hive, I figured I might as well get a VSH queen. It didn't really occur to me that "VSH" might be correlated with any negative qualities; I was treating it like an option you'd order on a car. Now I think I know a little bit better.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> ... I probably drank the Kool-Aid in thinking that a VSH queen was going to be a sort of magic bullet. ...


I guess I didn't realize this was the case. I'm looking at getting around 4 queens from a VSH breeder down in LA not because I think VSH is the panacea for mites and it's going to fix all my problems but because it seemed like a good source for some outside stock to look into incorporating into a breeding program. Realistically I would consider myself a new beekeeper in almost every metric but time involved. That being said, just from reading this forum I think most beekeepers on beesource when giving arm chair diagnostic of colony problems automatically go to mites as the problem. _Weak colony die out over winter_? *Mites*. _Strong colony die out over winter_? * Did you do your mite counts in the fall*? _Bees seem really weak coming into spring_, *probably have high mite loads and need to treat*.

With this type of rhetoric it's not surprising when newer beekeepers seek a silver bullet in what's advertised as the cure all strain and even has it built into the strains name. VSH queens the solution to all of your mite problems? Probably not. VSH queens an interesting idea worth tinkering around with? Well, I suppose that's up to the individual.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

^^
One of my major problems is that I have only my one colony, and until yesterday I didn't know any beekeepers in my immediate area. So I didn't have anyone with whom I could exchange notes or resources, or who could lend an expert eye when I had questions.

I just met a few folks yesterday, so we'll see if I can borrow some wisdom.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> That was me


I meant no offense by my comments and did not wish to detract from your questions. Your question is a common one I see regarding VSH and there are some interesting theoretical aspects to consider about the trait and how it is expressed in individual colonies and a population as a whole. I will try to post a few thoughts on that tomorrow.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

I often forget that hammers are for nails.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

To continue this thought, how much of the VSH trait would be passed on to an open mated daughter's colony? Or the next step down. Honestly, the genetics stuff has never stuck in my head and is confusing enough with 2 parents, let alone 10-20 males at random.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Vsh bees still are not enough against varroa in my experiences with them. Monitor your mites and at least do ipms to help your bees survive and
make honey. I preferred the vsh carnis myself


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

Like a lot of things in beekeeping, people try something once, often with only a few hives, and make judgments based on that one experience when there could have been a number of other factors in play. Another thought, how many people are actually testing for VSH in their stock, and how many people are calling themselves breeders by purchasing II queens or sperm and just trickling down the genetics to the consumer?


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

SRatcliff said:


> Like a lot of things in beekeeping, people try something once, often with only a few hives, and make judgments based on that one experience when there could have been a number of other factors in play.


That seems to be the case with much of beekeeping. Folks try something, and if it works they may sing the praises. If it doesn't, they may become "nay-sayers". In almost every case there are a number of undisclosed or unrealized factors at play in the perceived success or failure.

I only gave VSH a couple of tries, after buying into the "un-treated for XX years". Using tried & true methods, introduction failed at a much higher rate than I found acceptable - just 3 of 8. Those 3 each lasted about a year without treatment. A more normal acceptance rate has been in the very high 90's ( ~99%+)

I find the concept of VSH to be a valiant one. The results haven't been all that astounding, yet. The hygienic trait of large scale brood removal ( & thus mite reduction) is a bit counter-intuitive if the goal is honey production. On the other hand, a hive that dies out from mites won't gather much surplus honey either.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

SRatcliff said:


> Like a lot of things in beekeeping, people try something once, often with only a few hives, and make judgments based on that one experience when there could have been a number of other factors in play. Another thought, how many people are actually testing for VSH in their stock, and how many people are calling themselves breeders by purchasing II queens or sperm and just trickling down the genetics to the consumer?


Yeah, I find it odd that so many seem to promote their "local mutts", but then have negative comments about VSH bees. Did you test for VSH traits, or even monitor mite levels on these "VSH" queens? I suspect that the answer is often no to both. It seems to me that there is a basic misunderstanding present. VSH traits were not created in some test tube in a lab, but were discovered as traits in nature - survivor bees like so many like to promote. Sure these traits were identified and amplified with massive breeding efforts, but the initial genetic material was not simply created by man. I believe that this same thing is happening in nature, albeit at a MUCH slower time-scale. There are more and more reports of some level of tolerance developing in the honey bee populations throughout the country. In fact, even in Hawaii, where varroa are only a very recent introduction, there have been documented cases of feral colonies exhibiting significant VSH-like resistance. The belief is that when massive AFB ripped through the island in the 1930s the survivors retained some traits that are also successful against varroa. Of course there's the Russian bee too, also a result of natural pressures. 

I do strongly believe that VSH bees were released to the public prematurely. I say this based upon experience with these initial bees. They were simply not well-rounded bees, and as such didn't possess the necessary traits that producers have come to expect. This resulted in a significant setback to the adoption of these bees. I also believe that the current generation of VSH bees is far superior to the initial releases. Can they produce like some of the truly great Italian bees? Probably not yet, but progress has been made. That said, I benchmark my bees against Italian bees and my VSH stock is very competitive. However, when it comes to mite tolerance, VSH bees are WAY ahead of susceptible Italian stock. I have not been able to keep Italian bees alive for more than two years without treatment. By the summer of year two, Italian colonies will typically exhibit significant varroa damage, and yield sugar rolls counts of over 50, which for my area is a death sentence. 

Bottom line, VSH bees are improving, but expect variability in traits, and always monitor for varroa!! If you're buying VSH queens, ask the question: what methods do you employ to insure that your bees are mite tolerant?


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

JSL said:


> There was another recent thread asking about what to expect with VSH queens, but I did not wish to hijack the discussion... I find it interesting/troubling that many have the expectation that buying "VSH" queens will provide a measurable level of Varroa protection.


I have no experience with VSH queens, but find the concept intriguing, and have done a lot of reading on the subject to try decide if it's worth the time / effort to experiment with them a bit. From this reading, I have some thoughts on what _my_ expectations would be. Please do correct anything I have mis-understood from my reading on the subject, because I think a LOT of folks would be interested in the corrections.

An II breeder that comes from a strong VSH line and is artificially bred with drones from another line expressing strong hygenic traits, would give me a colony that needs to be 'propped up' somewhat is my expectation. They will remove a LOT of brood, and probably need brood added to keep the colony afloat. The sole purpose of this II queen is to raise daughter queens from a mother which is the result of selection, probably over selection, for a specific trait, to the point it's actually detrimental to colony survival.

The daughters raised, are not intended to be honey producing hives at all in this case. Those daughters will produce drones, all of which carry the hygenic trait. Since VSH is recessive, or is it double recessive? in order for that trait to survive, we need it to be propogated into the drone population in some abundance. Once I have a signficant number of drones in the local population carrying the recessive trait, then I need yet another 'pure' queen from which to raise daughters for open mating. The goal would be for each of those daughters to end up mating with _some_ of the drones produced from the first set.

The 'end goal' as the math points to me, assuming each of the queens mates with 10 to 15 drones, then I want 2 or 3 of those to be the pure VSH drones. End result will be colonies with 10 to 15 sub-families (one from each drone father), and 2 or 3 of those sub-families will express the hygenic trait strongly. This third generation then would still be good overall producers, but carry enough of the hygenic traits in sub-families that they will indeed make a dent in the mite load. But this will just be a dent, with my own personal goal, that dent would be enough to carry the colonies all the way thru the honey production part of the season without a need for external help with mites. But everything will change after the colonies start reducing populations as they prepare for winter, and at that point, they may well need some outside help still.

The real problem as I see it, for someone like myself that has neither a large population to work with, or the time to do a lot of the testing required, comes about from what we are trying to achieve. For VSH to be present, it's actually two things. The VS part is one specific trait, and the H is another. In moderation, this combination is good for overall colony health, but, like anything good, if over-done, it becomes detrimental to overall colony health. To achieve the goal of 20 to 25 percent of the sub families in each colony carrying and expressing the trait, for an open mating situation, we need about 20 to 25 percent of the background drone population carrying the trait, and all of the new queens we raise need to have it. That will result in all the colonies running roughly the right percentages. For a relatively small scale such as my own, it's not realistic to start with the II queen on the 3 year plan required to bring this trait into the population overall. It's much easier for me to just buy queens that were raised from the II breeder, then use them directly, some for producing drones and one for producing my new queens, it's a strategy that would allow me to reach the goals of 20 to 25% VSH sub-families in my colonies in the first year, then see the benefits (or lack thereof) during the honey season the following year.

The part that I keep running into is when I look at the math of combinations. In order for all of the colonies to have 20 to 25% expression of a recessive trait, I need all of my new queens to come from stock with that trait, then mate with a mixed population of drones. The problem is, if I continue down the road of using all queens with this trait, eventually I reach the point that all of the drones also carry the trait, which is not good. I end up at the conclusion, I can reach the end goal statistically at the third generation from the II queen mothers, but without some sort of artificial 'help', beyond that, I cant keep the correct mix in all of the colonies, I can only attempt to keep it in a percentage of colonies. So at best, by doing the work to introduce the trait into our bee population, it'll possibly provide an incremental improvement in the long run, but, it's not a silver bullet that's going to solve problems on it's own. And after that gen3, it's going to be a LOT of work trying to identify and maintain the VSH line from which to draw further.

So when I mix a bit of 'practical' application into the math, the final conclusion I end up with, if I buy VSH queens specifically to import the trait, in the long run, it's FAR more efficent for me to just bring in fresh from a producer (one generation removed from the II breeder), and look not at individual colonies for instant results, but track our results overall and look for what incremental improvements they bring over time. And if I do choose to do all the extra work of testing, then when I discover that 'highly hygenic' colony, it's better used as a drone producer than as a queen mother.

Maybe I'm mis-understanding something fundamental here, but, it does seem to me, working with small populations to target a specific regressive trait, is an impossible task, and, expecting it to be a silver bullet, is unrealistic. Pushing VSH into the population overall is a game of statistics, and, without statistically significant sample numbers, will be an exercise in frustration.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Grozzie, I don't think it's recessive, but it's multi-genic. I recall reading somewhere they think it could be around 9 to 16 genes involved. Kind of muddies the waters a bit, probably a bunch of minor genes involved as well.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

As others have stated VSH were developed by taking lots and lots of different queens from different sources and selecting for those which showed desirable characters. Such characters are hygenic removal of infested brood and suppression of varrao reproduction. That makes at absolute a minimum of three genes from what I have read and from my experience in breeding all kinds of animals more likely 5 or 10 different genes. Some may be alleles as opposed to all different loci. The primary aim was varroa tolerance so it would be expected other characters such as productivity would be lost to a greater or lessor extent.

None of this says VSH will deal with varroa and the viruses varroa transmit without some help every time. I suspect these bees probably are quite good at eliminating AFB which is a plus. There seems to have been significant changes in how varroa whack hives over the last 20 years. Mite populations that hives seemed to tolerate 20 years ago will now kill the hive every time. So, the varroa and related virus problem has evolved to be worse today than it was originally.

This is not intended to be critical at all of VSH queens. From all I have read I think they do tolerate varroa better than most bees regardless if those bees are local mutts that survived or bred specifically for production of more brood and more honey. But, I see no evidence that they are any silver bullet that is a one step solution to the varroa problem. I have been experimenting with Minnesota Hygenics and find they tolerate varroa much better than local mutts or local feral swarms. They are no silver bullet either. I still need to do alcohol wash counts and treat when varroa are high. Last year I treated starting April 1 and that spring treatment was adequate to keep mite counts by alcohol wash low all summer and right into fall. It also kept virus symptoms at bay thru the fall. Early spring is a easy time for me to treat as the apivar strips are off well before significant honey flow starts. I would treat again late summer any time I saw counts above 2%. Last year I did not see such counts. I would not bet a dime that will repeat. Compared to local mutts or feral swarms that is a big improvement. I also am not having the swarming problems I saw with local ferals. Those swarmed so badly you could not keep enough in the box to make any excess honey.

This breeding effort is early enough I think we are kidding ourselves if we think we have a mite proof bee that will be a decent honey producer. Given another 15 years of intensive breeding effort by experts and we might be there. I doubt if anyone with less than 50 hives could do better than maintain the current status. The selective breeding required is simply too complex to over come the influx of local genes to expect much improvement. So, the best a small bee keeper could hope for right now is a bee that takes care of part of the problem but still needs help. And he likely needs to think in terms of regular new infusions from pure stock. That is an advancement over where we were so should not be viewed as a failure.

I also know that people like JSL that produce breeder queens have as part of their breeding effort selection for mite tolerance. I suspect given time many of the queen breeders will produce queens better overall than todays VSH or MH. It takes time. There are lots of genes that need to be recombined and is not going to happen over nite. I also think with time we are going to develop more user and bee friendly ways to deal with mites. While I personally have not yet tried any of the oxalic acid concoctions those sure look promising and new wrinkles on oxalic acid are in the works.

Maybe we should all best look at these things as works in progress and not final answers. Selective breeding is nearly never like a light switch and either full on or full off. Most of the time the best you can hope for is someplace on the dimmer switch and slowly turning the dimmer towards full on. As the mites and viruses mutate that full on can get farther away. Good bee keeping practices have always been important and today are more important than ever before. The person who simply wants to buy some bees, put them in a box and harvest a bit of honey is unlikely to have live bees for very many years. But, that has always been true. Things like AFB, EFB and unnamed viruses have gone thru the country and wiped out lots and lots of hives as long as people have kept bees. We have always had to be diligent and deal with such things by more than simply sticking a colony out back and harvesting honey once a year.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Grozzie, I think we are on the same page... Let me see if I can simplify. VSH is not as simple as being recessive. It is a fairly complex behavioral trait governed by multiple genes/alleles.

To me, it should work brilliantly in a completely controlled scenario with all queens being inseminated. The expression of VSH behavior covers a spectrum. A high expression of VSH is not the best, a medium level of expression may be optimal and a low expression of VSH may also be poor in terms of Varroa control. Unfortunately in a commercial setting high or low expression would be detrimental, but how would you ensure proper gene frequency in an open mated population? If we could make each generation of queens express say a hypothetical "medium" 75% VSH rate and assume that is optimal we would be all set. However in random matings, the actual expression level may be all over the place... 

I think this is what makes this type of mechanism challenging for beekeepers. How do you know if your queen is a "good one" or a "bad one" before it is too late. And, how many new beekeepers or experienced beekeepers for that matter can spot and correct mite issues fast enough?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

JSL said:


> A high expression of VSH is not the best, a medium level of expression may be optimal and a low expression of VSH may also be poor in terms of Varroa control.



While I agree that low expression is probably not sufficient to be of value, and that medium is probably good enough, but I wonder about the comments you made regarding high expression. How confident are you that high expressing bees are not well-suited to be good producers? Dr. Harbo claims to have solved the brood problem. I've used a couple of his II queens and I tend to agree with him. I also communicate with others who share this perspective. 

My experience suggests that, F1 crosses even with non-target drones still yield pretty consistent results. Are these commercial level results? Perhaps not, but I think there is potential. 

Not trying to be combative, Just sharing my views. I really appreciate the opportunity to openly discuss this topic with a respected expert.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Richard Cryberg said:


> As the mites and viruses mutate that full on can get farther away.


And therein is one of the issues I see as a crux of the problem. Selection happens over a generation, and with bees we tend to look generally as 'once a year' or maybe two generations in a year for a very active selection program. During that year, how many generations of mites are subject to whatever selection pressure comes about from us trying to deal with them ?

In terms of being selected for survival traits, I think the mites have a HUGE advantage over the bees, because they go thru a dozen generational selection cycles for each generation of selection on the bees. If we are selecting bees for VSH and other hygenic type variations, at the same time, mites are being accidentally selected for those that survive better / longer in the hygenic hive, and going thru far more rounds of selection during the process.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

AstroBee said:


> Not trying to be combative, Just sharing my views. I really appreciate the opportunity to openly discuss this topic with a respected expert.


No not at all Astro, I enjoy the theoretical discussions just as much as the practical discussions. In theory VSH should be fine, but in practice, there appear to be some issues... 

I have some confidence in my statement about high expression of VSH being a hindrance to the colony. My opinion is not set in stone but is based on several different experiences with the lines.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good thread. i appreciate the opportunity to read what you guys have to say about all this. many thanks for contributing to the forum.


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

JSL said:


> No not at all Astro, I enjoy the theoretical discussions just as much as the practical discussions. In theory VSH should be fine, but in practice, there appear to be some issues...
> 
> I have some confidence in my statement about high expression of VSH being a hindrance to the colony. My opinion is not set in stone but is based on several different experiences with the lines.


What do you think about "nudging" an apiary's(say 100 colonies) genetics toward VSH(by doing my own assays) and then stepping back from that type of breeding and seeing what happens? I would think that if the traits were that beneficial then natural selection and gene flow would maintain a certain level of VSH.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

grozzie2 said:


> I think the mites have a HUGE advantage over the bees, because they go thru a dozen generational selection cycles for each generation of selection on the bees.


Warning: Total conjecture on my part. Yes, lots of generations relative to honey bees, but brother and sisters interbreed, doesn't this pose a limiting effect on how they can adapt?


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

SRatcliff said:


> What do you think about "nudging" an apiary's(say 100 colonies) genetics toward VSH(by doing my own assays) and then stepping back from that type of breeding and seeing what happens? I would think that if the traits were that beneficial then natural selection and gene flow would maintain a certain level of VSH.


Have you seen this? http://www.beesource.com/resources/...ney-bees-from-locally-adapted-stock-a-recipe/

"By E.H. ERICKSON, L.H. HINES, and A.H. ATMOWIDJOJO
Carl Hayden Bee Research Center
2000 E. Allen Road
Tucson, AZ 85719

*Abstract*

"_Our earlier research demonstrated that it is relatively easy for beekeepers in the* southwestern United States* to produce Varroa-tolerant honey bee populations using their own locally adapted stock. The only requirements are fundamental beekeeping skills, the ability to rear queens, and the few Varroa-tolerant colonies that are present in nearly every apiary. Our Varroa-tolerant population was developed in less than 2 years and is now going into its sixth year. An easy-to-understand recipe that any beekeeper can use to produce Varroa-tolerant stock is presented. *Our purpose is to encourage beekeepers elsewhere to undertake a similar effort * in order to determine the universality of application of our findings._"

It is certainly worth a a try in your area.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

The single II Italian breeder queen in my experience got me to thinking. We know that brood breaks seem to slow mite success, yet most II breeder queens are from Italian stock, (meaning, large brood nests and, here where I live, brood nests all year around). Seems to me that the enhanced VSH trait, PLUS a smaller brood nest, and more natural brood breaks over winter would be a better strategy. Smaller brood nests and brood breaks would pair nicely with other IPM strategies as well. I'd like to see more VSH choices from Carniolan stocks.

That said, I was infected with irrational exuberance about VSH promises too. My open mated F-1 queens (from II breeder queen) tended to show 3% mite infestations in first year. I've gone back to third generation (F-3), open mated queens from the best of BeeWeaver's ordinary queens. They are gentle enough, one day earlier out of their queen cells, have smaller brood nests, and often have brood breaks over winter with the same or similar mite infestations.

I hope this isn't too far off the scope of your thread JSL.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

It is certainly worth a a try in your area.[/QUOTE said:


> But six or seven mites per 100 bees is well past the threshold where the mites limit colony performance badly today. As viruses have evolved and their interaction with mites has evolved mite levels that were ok 10 or 15 years ago are no longer ok. My experience with those levels is the hive does not prosper and produce and dies eventually.
> 
> That is not to say that bees that control mites to that level are useless by any means. That is a good start and is good enough to cut down the amount of treatments needed to turn the colony into a good performer.
> 
> ...


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

Colobee said:


> Have you seen this? http://www.beesource.com/resources/...ney-bees-from-locally-adapted-stock-a-recipe/
> 
> "By E.H. ERICKSON, L.H. HINES, and A.H. ATMOWIDJOJO
> Carl Hayden Bee Research Center
> ...


Yes, I've seen that, it's basically using alcohol washes to determine colonies with the least infestation and grafting from those. It's probably a very good selection process that is broad enough to keep lots of other beneficial traits going, but are there other environmental factors that may may effect mite infestation levels? The questions I'm struggling with are, are certain traits(in regards to Varroa tolerance) more important than others? Can you boost VSH in a population, via selection for high mite infertility rate, then change to a more broad selection process(solely low alcohol wash counts) and retain a beneficial level of VSH(if it's actually beneficial)?


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

SRatcliff said:


> What do you think about "nudging" an apiary's(say 100 colonies) genetics toward VSH(by doing my own assays) and then stepping back from that type of breeding and seeing what happens? I would think that if the traits were that beneficial then natural selection and gene flow would maintain a certain level of VSH.


This is where I'm trying to go, but with fewer hives. Last Spring I started two VSH/Carni hybrid nucs- they both swarmed with plenty of room in the top boxes, so, gone.

From the swarm cells in the two hives I started five more nucs, while leaving some cells in the original hives. Both of the originals built up well, and four of the five nucs successfully mated queens. Of the four nucs, two built up well and two did not. The two poor nucs were combined in the fall, and an extra super of honey added because they did not have enough. All of the others were heavy, and some surplus was obtained from one.

Mite counts were not high, but that could be explained by the swarming. All were treated with FA in the fall.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

SRatcliff said:


> What do you think about "nudging" an apiary's(say 100 colonies) genetics toward VSH(by doing my own assays) and then stepping back from that type of breeding and seeing what happens? I would think that if the traits were that beneficial then natural selection and gene flow would maintain a certain level of VSH.


I think this has been tried on many different levels. SMR/VSH was first selected/propagated from a very low frequency in the population. If you adhere to the reasoning that selection pressure and relative benefit of a characteristic influence its frequency in the population then one would assume, at least I would assume, VSH would easily increase within a population. I realize there are many factors that influence this change in frequency but the initial search for a trait such as VSH came from a "survivor" type sample. With the use of single drone insemination and intense selection, the expression of VSH was increased, but even then it does not appear to stabilize or reach any sort of equilibrium.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks for starting this thread, Dr. Latshaw. I responded to the other thread suggesting immediate mite treatment because of JW Chesnut's response - that his picture showed far less brood than his own VSH bees, and due to results my buddy had the previous year. I saw some whitish color that appeared to be mite drass, but I could be wrong - that is NOT a great photo he posted.

I agree that it could be a case of over-expression of VSH, and of course possibly a case of poor I.I. conditions. I'll PM him and go take a close look if he wishes. I live about 70 miles away. Anything you would want to see up close? I'm open to suggestions.

If I spot a ridiculous number of white eyes pupa being uncapped, it's very likely high-expression of the hygenic trait complex. If I see drass, it could be mites. It could, of course, be multiple stressors. Again, I would like your suggestions. Thank you.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

You are welcome Kilocharlie. It has been an interesting read for me!

I look for the brood, especially uncapped brood or brood that is just ready to be capped for any sign of brood disease. If you have multiple hives here is another trick. When I first worked on the SMR lines, it was thought to be a mite fertility issue. However, I noticed that there seemed to be a bee behavioral component. I had colonies with frames of brood similar to what was shown. To boost the struggling SMR colonies, I would swap out frames of eggs for sealed brood from other colonies. I marked all the frames just in case. What I noticed was that a frame of eggs taken from a poor SMR colony and given to a non-SMR colony would produce a beautiful frame of brood. This led me to think the bees are over-removing the brood, even apparently healthy brood.


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

JSL said:


> You are welcome Kilocharlie. It has been an interesting read for me!
> 
> I look for the brood, especially uncapped brood or brood that is just ready to be capped for any sign of brood disease. If you have multiple hives here is another trick. When I first worked on the SMR lines, it was thought to be a mite fertility issue. However, I noticed that there seemed to be a bee behavioral component. I had colonies with frames of brood similar to what was shown. To boost the struggling SMR colonies, I would swap out frames of eggs for sealed brood from other colonies. I marked all the frames just in case. What I noticed was that a frame of eggs taken from a poor SMR colony and given to a non-SMR colony would produce a beautiful frame of brood. This led me to think the bees are over-removing the brood, even apparently healthy brood.


So do you think that mite removal through the "VSH trait" is more of a side effect, and what the bees are actually doing is more of a general brood removal?


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

SRatcliff said:


> So do you think that mite removal through the "VSH trait" is more of a side effect, and what the bees are actually doing is more of a general brood removal?


In short yes... VSH seems to be a collection of mechanisms or steps. Uncapping and removing brood is certainly disruptive to the mites and the bees. Some of the uncapping appears directed and intentional, while some of it is not. IF the behavior could be refined, and I am not certain it can be, targeted removal would work beautifully. BUT, from what I have read and experienced, there is a bit of overzealous uncapping and recapping and removal that occurs. I have written before, VSH is too energetically expensive for the colony. By this I mean the "mistakes" cost too much in terms of time, energy and falsely accused brood removal.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

JSL said:


> I have written before, VSH is too energetically expensive for the colony. By this I mean the "mistakes" cost too much in terms of time, energy and falsely accused brood removal.


What I have observed is that at certain times of the year, e.g., high mite flux into the hive, or the initiation of brood reading after a prolonged broodless period, you can see higher than normal uncapping. It has been my experience that once these phases are managed, the uncapping behavior is reduced and the colony spends its resources building up like good bees should.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

AstroBee said:


> What I have observed is that at certain times of the year, e.g., high mite flux into the hive, or the initiation of brood reading after a prolonged broodless period, you can see higher than normal uncapping. It has been my experience that once these phases are managed, the uncapping behavior is reduced and the colony spends its resources building up like good bees should.


my bees go relatively broodless during our summer dearth which typically runs from early july to mid august give or take a little. when the first of the late season blooms start they ramp up brooding again establishing what will become the wintering population. i notice that at the beginning of this ramp up i'll see removal of some devitalized pupae which are mostly drone and some with deformed wings or stunted abdomens. this usually lasts a couple of weeks or so and then stops. the worker brood patterns look good afterward.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> my bees go relatively broodless during our summer dearth which typically runs from early july to mid august give or take a little. when the first of the late season blooms start they ramp up brooding again establishing what will become the wintering population. i notice that at the beginning of this ramp up i'll see removal of some devitalized pupae which are mostly drone and some with deformed wings or stunted abdomens. this usually lasts a couple of weeks or so and then stops. the worker brood patterns look good afterward.


Yeah, that sounds typical. The trick is that the colony needs to still maintain good populations to move past these occurrences so they can still meet the target grow rates that are needed to be productive and survive. I think this is (at least partially) is where this colony has failed, however, there could be bigger issues there.

Sounds like you've got some interesting bees.


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