# Do bees grow?



## stump56 (Apr 27, 2010)

i was wondering the same thing the other day.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

Bees do not grow once they are an adult. All growing is done as larva. To grow as an adult would mean they would have to be able to shed their "skin". Some insects do this but bees do not.
A cell can dictate the size of a bee. Larger cess produce larger bees.
Also the queen has probably mated with a few different races and (I am not sure) some are larger than others.


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## stump56 (Apr 27, 2010)

thanks for the clarification


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## Mirad (May 3, 2010)

The queen mates with more than one drone while she's on her maiden flight? For some reason I was thinking it was only one lucky drone that found her.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

The queen will mate with many drones on her flight. If they are of different races then you will see some mixing in the offspring (enough to see different darknesses and ?possibly? size.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Mirad said:


> The queen mates with more than one drone while she's on her maiden flight? For some reason I was thinking it was only one lucky drone that found her.[/QUOTE
> 
> Usually about 15-20 lucky drones


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## MeriB (Mar 15, 2010)

Lucky Drones? Not if you consider dying after breeding luck?!


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## Fred Bee (May 5, 2007)

Well, we are wandering from the original question a bit...but...
(See next post)


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## Fred Bee (May 5, 2007)

Well, the drones can die after mating with the Queen or they can wait until fall of the year and die after being kicked out for winter. Hummm...wonder which they prefer?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A newly emerged bee is slightly smaller than one that is a week old or so. But basically they don't "grow" at least their exoskeleton does not. Certainly their abdomen (and a queen's abdomen) change size some...


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

The queen will mate with up to 20 drones. How many generations does it take for cell size to effect size of the adult bee? Who did the research and how did they eliminate other factors like the multiple inseminations? There has been a lot of research done in Florida and Georgia on cell size and most determined it is a "snake oil" solution. You might notice the adds for small cell foundation have changed. The cell size wheel has been reinvented several times in the last 50 years.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

What does cell size have to do with this discussion? I didn't see any mention of it...

>The queen will mate with up to 20 drones. How many generations does it take for cell size to effect size of the adult bee? 

One.

>Who did the research and how did they eliminate other factors like the multiple inseminations?

What does that have to do with cell size?

> There has been a lot of research done in Florida and Georgia on cell size and most determined it is a "snake oil" solution.

There are an awful lot of people who went from not being able to keep bees alive because of Varroa to no treatments and healthy bees. If it is "snake oil" why are our bees still doing well and not dying from Varroa?

> You might notice the adds for small cell foundation have changed. The cell size wheel has been reinvented several times in the last 50 years. 

Acually more than the last 100... Baudoux started his research in 1893. Huber did his research on getting larger bees by cell size in 1791.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#historiccellsize
http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#letter8


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

I'll take your 1791 and 1893 research and raise you three current studies.
A. M. Ellis1 , G. W. Hayes1 and J. D. Ellis2
(1) Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, Division of Plant Industry, Bureau of Plant and Apiary Inspection, Apiary Inspection Section, 1911 SW 34th St., Gainesville, FL 32614-7100, USA
(2) Honey Bee Research and Extension Laboratory, Department of Entomology and Nematology, University of Florida, Bldg. 970 Natural Area Dr., Gainesville, FL 32611-0620, USA Received: 3 October 2008 Accepted: 10 November 2008 Published online: 6 December 2008 
Abstract Due to a continuing shift toward reducing/minimizing the use of chemicals in honey bee colonies, we explored the possibility of using small cell foundation as a varroa control. Based on the number of anecdotal reports supporting small cell as an efficacious varroa control tool, we hypothesized that bee colonies housed on combs constructed on small cell foundation would have lower varroa populations and higher adult bee populations and more cm2 brood. To summarize our results, we found that the use of small cell foundation did not significantly affect cm2 total brood, total mites per colony, mites per brood cell, or mites per adult bee, but did affect adult bee population for two sampling months. Varroa levels were similar in all colonies throughout the study. We found no evidence that small cell foundation was beneficial with regard to varroa control under the tested conditions in Florida. 

Small-cell comb foundation does not impede Varroa mite
population growth in honey bee colonies*
Jennifer A. Berry1, William B. Owens2, Keith S. Delaplane1
1 Department of Entomology, University of Georgia, Athens, GA 30602, USA
2 Owens Apiaries, 4510 Springwood Drive, Monroe, GA 30655, USA
Received 1 October 2008 – Revised 23 March 2009 – Accepted 27 April 2009
Abstract – In three independently replicated field studies, we compared biometrics of Varroa mite and honey bee populations in bee colonies housed on one of two brood cell types: small-cell (4.9 �} 0.08 mm cell width, walls inclusive) or conventional-cell (5.3 �} 0.04). In one of the studies, ending colony bee population was significantly higher in small-cell colonies (14994 �} 2494 bees) than conventional-cell (5653 �} 1082).
However, small-cell colonies were significantly higher for mite population in brood (359.7 �} 87.4 vs. 134.5 �} 38.7), percentage of mite population in brood (49.4 �} 7.1 vs. 26.8 �} 6.7), and mites per 100 adult
bees (5.1 �} 0.9 vs. 3.3 �} 0.5). With the three remaining ending Varroa population metrics, mean trends for small-cell were unfavorable. We conclude that small-cell comb technology does not impede Varroa population growth.

3. McMullan, J. B., Brown, M. J. F. (2006). Brood-cell size does not influence the susceptibility of honey bees (Apis mellifera) to infestation by tracheal mites (Acarapis woodi). Experimental and Applied Acarology 39: 273-280.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

Amazing. All these studies tell me that they need something to do.

(edited: I decided to tone down my post a little to try to avoid fights. By the way what do these studies have to do with the question?)

So the answer:
Bees don't grow once they are an adult (meaning a bee as apposed to a larva). They may enlarge some due to mating/eating but this is no more growing than when we get slightly bigger after a meal.

Things created long ago by God and now we are brilliant because we "discover" it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Yes we've all read the studies. Here's mine. It's been going more than ten years if you count not treating on large cell as a part. The small cell part has lasted almost a decade. The results are if you don't treat large cell bees 100% die from Varroa. If you do treat large cell bees, 100% die from Varroa. If you don't treat small cell bees 0% die from Varroa. I am not basing this on mite counts (other than looking for them on the bottom boards of dead hives and looking for their feces in brood cells on dead hives. I have tried to find mites to show them to beginners classes and usually have trouble finding any. So you can do all the mite counts you like, all the studies you like. I will continue to do what is working and the rest of you will continue to obsess about an issue I have not worried about in many years.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Research from 1791 and 1893 would have no validity for Varroa since they were not identified until 1904 by Dr Oudemars in Indonesioa. It was Anderson and Truman that correctly identified the Varroa jacobsoni from the Varroa destructor that parasitizes bees in 2000. A single Varroa was detected in 1979 and later in greater numbers in 1987 in Florida. How credible is ten years of experience when they have been present in northern regions for only a few years?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

brac said:


> So I'm trying to understand why I see bees of different sizes, I thought insects which have an exoskeleton, stay the same size for life.
> Thanks


To return to the original posting...


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> Research from 1791 and 1893 would have no validity for Varroa *since they were not identified until 1904* by Dr Oudemars in Indonesioa. It was Anderson and Truman that correctly identified the Varroa jacobsoni from the Varroa destructor that parasitizes bees in 2000. A single Varroa was detected in 1979 and later in greater numbers in 1987 in Florida. How credible is ten years of experience when they have been present in northern regions for only a few years?


Of course there were no varroa before *cough* *cough* Doctor Oudemars *discovered* them. Of course they were also not present in Americas until they were again *discovered* by another dr of something or other. Who found the first one in 1979 that started this whole problem - he/she should be deported.
Can we stop, take a breath - think things over and drop the stack of papers.




BeeCurious said:


> To return to the original posting...


Yes. Sorry, but something had to be said.


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

I thought they DID grow since I see newly emerged bees as tiny compared with older workers. plus a newly emerged queen is tiny. Explain this please?


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## frostygoat (Jun 3, 2008)

Mike we get it, you don't like science...feel free to quit driving a car and stop using any kind of medicine, throw your computer away too. Dr's were involved in all of it. Here's a challenge, see how long you can live without them. :s


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

As we continue with off topic.



frostygoat said:


> Mike we get it, you don't like science...feel free to quit driving a car and stop using any kind of medicine, throw your computer away too. Dr's were involved in all of it. Here's a challenge, see how long you can live without them. :s


Actually - the car was invented by many people. I doubt most of them would have kept a straight face if you had called them a dr or a scientist. Same with airplanes and a LOT of our modern *conveniences*. "Convenience - The quality of being useful and convenient". Notice it is not NEEDED.

Dr.s and scientists are not God. Humans lived long and happy lives before them. If you read your Bible you will see where it says our days are 70 or 80 years. I don't see that we have advanced beyond that. That is still the average life span. Of course with our dr.s and scientists we now are told and excused for shoving them into "old folks homes" (I say it that way in no way to dishonor our older people).

Please stop and think about what I am saying seriously. We have been tought to put all our trust in these people without question. They are leading us astray. How often do you hear a doctor tell you to trust them - they of course will be the first to say "Well, we're not God" once the patient is dead though.

If you will also be objective you will see I in no way led this thread into these discussions. Others pulled their stuff in off topic.

Finally - Actually I used to love science. I had plan to be something or other in the field - until I realized just about everything I was being taught was not true. It was a bunch of best guesses and I was to accept it as truth. So it isn't true - I dislike it. It is the perverted science that is today (and as far as I can tell has been).


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

I think newly emerged bees 'may' grow slightly larger in the first few days after emergence until their exoskeleton fully hardens.

The biggest difference in size that I have seen is abdominal size differences. A field bee with a full belly and its abdomen fully distended appears much larger than a fuzzy baby bee. If you examine that same field bee after it dies and dries up, the abdomen gets much smaller, and that field bee will be fairly comparable in size to the freshly emerged bee.


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## megank (Mar 28, 2006)

So...To answer the original question...

When a larva molts it sheds it's cuticle ie "skin". The underlaying "skin" is soft and pliable. The larva then ingest air effectively blowing itse;f up like a balloon thus stretching the cuticle (increasing it's volume). Over time the cuticle hardens and the larva grows to fill in the empty space until it needs to molt again.

Think of blowing up a balloon and paper mache around it. Allow it to dry and then pop the balloon. What you have left is an empty cavity from which you can put "stuff" in it...in the larva's case...itself.

My guess and it's just a guess is that when an adult bee emerges it pretty much does the same thing...so yes I think bees do "grow" a little after they hatch


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## Ted n Ms (Apr 25, 2008)

MeriB said:


> Lucky Drones? Not if you consider dying after breeding luck?!


Yeah.... but what away to go.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

I am noticing quite a bit of variation in the sizes of workers in my hives. (not counting drones, just workers). Today I saw a couple of noticeably petite girls happily going in and out of the hives.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

How many worker bees have you seen that die in a feeder, and they get so waterlogged they swell up as big as a queen?


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