# Double nuc, what am I missing?



## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

I've recently read a bit about the Palmer sustainable apiary. In that, reference is made to overwintering double nucs in a northern climate. These use a single 10-frame super with divider on a special double-entry bottom board, and is supered with "custom" 4 frame 'nuc' supers. I believe the theory is that the smaller space introduces crowding which speeds their progress to grow, and also gives a smaller volume of space to maintain and heat over winter, in addition to shared heat between the two nucs. Also, I assume these nucs will have smaller winter clusters, therefore using less reources, allowing the smaller space to accomodate their needs. Now for questions... I've seen a lot of design showing the lower unit as a standard 10 frame super with a 1x (3/4") divider. Then as the upper nucs are seperate, the 'divider' there is 2 1x giving 1 1/2". Would it make sense to use a thinner material for the mating faces of the nucs to maintain the 3/4" divide, in terms of shared thermal energy, or is this not significant enough to matter in a typical configuration? Next, I use 100% medium equipment. I'm assuming the 4 on 4 design is intended for deeps, yielding 8 frames, or nearly a full deep in total. This would be roughly one and a half mediums (12 frames) if my math serves me. Would this mean for mediums, I'd want to get them into a 4 on 4 on 4 (three high) to overwinter on a total of twelve frames? Last, for anyone in a northern climate that has tried this configuration, did you use screen or solid bottom board? How about upper venting? Notched inner cover only? I run all screen bottoms (with solid panel in place in winter, leaving an air gap across the back of about 2") and screen inner covers (over a solid candy board with several 2" holes through the sugar to vent moisture), but wonder if the double nuc needs better closure to maintain heat in winter.

Now, aside from the physical aspects of the double nuc, If I understand right, I should be able to build one of these roughly now, and they'll be able to build up enough through the fall flow (if all's well) to sustain their smaller numbers over winter, then will burst come spring and can quickly move up to a full size hive before main flow. Is this correct? For anyone in asimilar climate (zone 6a) how late can they be successfully started to give enough time for the queen to build a population before winter?


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

I've got the same questions so I'll be watching this thread. I run 8 and 10 frame mediums. I built two second story nucs to go over a 10 frame a couple of weeks ago just to have the equipment on hand. Since then I've decided I need to build at least two more for a third story since I use medium frames. Since the bottom board needs to also be divided I decided against making it screened for simplity. I still need to build it, so I may change my mind.


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

While I haven't tried Mr. Palmer's techniques (yet), I wanted to let you know that he will be the featured speaker this fall at the State Beekeeper's meeting: http://www.hoosierbuzz.com/


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

It's seeming like for mediums, 4 over 4 over 4 (12 total) is needed to winter in the north, roughly equal to deep 4 over 4 (8 total). I wonder if there is a reason to use these custom nuc supers over a divided standard 10 frame super then, or would the same effect come from bundling two or more nucs side by side for the heat sharing aspects? In the typical super with divider, vs two (or more) nucs strapped together, the thickness of the joining wall will be different, but enough to matter? I don't mind making a few 4-frame supers for the double nuc over standard super idea... but if it works as well, why not stick to 5 frame nucs and bundle them together for winter, but otherwise following the same idea... 3 mediums tall to overwinter? Any benefit to the standard super divided other than already having it on hand?


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## Dave A. (Mar 13, 2015)

DrJeseuss said:


> It's seeming like for mediums, 4 over 4 over 4 (12 total) is needed to winter in the north, roughly equal to deep 4 over 4 (8 total). I wonder if there is a reason to use these custom nuc supers over a divided standard 10 frame super then, or would the same effect come from bundling two or more nucs side by side for the heat sharing aspects? In the typical super with divider, vs two (or more) nucs strapped together, the thickness of the joining wall will be different, but enough to matter? I don't mind making a few 4-frame supers for the double nuc over standard super idea... but if it works as well, why not stick to 5 frame nucs and bundle them together for winter, but otherwise following the same idea... 3 mediums tall to overwinter? Any benefit to the standard super divided other than already having it on hand?


That's a really good question.


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## Rick_ Sprague (Feb 7, 2012)

I successfully overwintered double story Nucs last year. They came through the winter fine and exploded in growth this spring. All are in double deeps now ,and one has 2 full supers. I like it so much I now have 15 nucs. I will do 2 more splits this Sunday, and call it quits for the year. I don't think I would split any later than the 15 of July. You are looking at 42 days from the formation of a queen until the first worker forages. That gets us into golden rod as the last nectar crop in Indiana. Most likely you will have to feed and that gets expensive.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

It is partly about frame space. and having a uniform sides to your box. Plus you have more of a edge on the upper box so if you are off by a little bite you will still be ok. In the four frame upper box. You end up with fat frames in the bottom box unless you put a in hive feeder in. It really cut down on my burr comb but is more work. 
David


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

Dave A. said:


> That's a really good question.


Its my understanding he wants the total volume to fit within the standard 10 frame space. see the pic









because of this, your forced to go with 4 frame nuc boxes instead of five.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

First, the idea goes back a very very long time. If you watch his National Honey Show talk about the sustainable apiary he goes back and back and back and eventually is quoting writings from the 1700s if I remember? About the wisdom of wintering small colonies. The idea is that you're overwintering queen bees. Brother Adam in Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey talks about overwintering queen bees in little mating nucs and then using those for increase and requeening production colonies the following spring. 

You'll also here him say "use what you have", the deep system with supers works for him, and he talks a little bit about the evolution he went through to get to that point. 

Second, it really isn't about comb size or overall area occupied, right? It's about number of young bees and enough feed to get them through the winter. So two or twenty two combs is no different as long as the bees are alive in the spring for your area and able to build up. That's over simplifying it a bit obviously. The problem might not be how many bees it takes to survive the winter, but how many bees it takes to survive the winter and be able to brood up early enough to be useful for your flows and your beework. Maybe that's two mediums, maybe it's three.

I built D Coates 1/2" plywood nucs and I plan on trying to overwinter a few of them by placing them side-by-side (supered to 5 over 5 deep frames). I'm actually thinking if I have four of them, I might push them all together side-by-side or maybe 2x2 with the backs pushed together on the other side so that all four of them would have two shared walls with bees. Hoping to have enough resources to make some late splits with purchased queens and get them built up. I suspect part of the reason MP arrived at what he uses is not having a bunch of custom top covers and oddities that will exist when I cram four of these together.

There is a lot of wisdom in the way MP keeps bees and he is, I feel, pretty honest about what he does in his lectures. I don't know how my flow or your flow compares to his, it seems like he has a pretty steady flow throughout his bee year. We go through a pretty dearthy time in August around here and I don't think our fall flow is very strong on average. So there will obviously be some tweaking for locality. I really like the idea of having overwintered queens available in March if needed instead of paying $30 for a queen and $20 to have her shipped.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

I like the idea at hand and certainly want to give it a go. I think I am not missing anything here, just overthinking maybe.  In principle, Palmer's double nuc arrangement uses the divided super (as it was on hand) and supered with special 4 frame nuc supers, since that's what would fit over the standard super and under the standard cover... So, if starting with nothing (not quite true, but as example), I could build typical 5 frame nucs, supering them up as he does, and before winter, bundle them to share heat and all's well.

One benefit I might see to Palmer's double nuc idea... Use a single super below (undivided), two 4 frame nucs above... the queen will lay up the nucs which can be pulled off and replaced with new empty nucs. Then the nucs are queenless nuc splits, complete with eggs, stores, etc, and mirrored in each side (assuming the bees move up equally).


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Last year I split mine. Two frames of brood on July 10. Kept them in 5 frame nucs until fall. Fed them till it got too cold. The did well, but, I treated, fed and put winter quilt on them and sugar bricks.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I used M. Palmer's technique using medium boxes. I'm in zone 6. Since I use 1 1/4 frames, I get 5 frames per box. They overwintered great on 10 frames, 5 over 5 (6 out of 8 surviving). I fed until the top box weighed about 20 pounds. My losses were a queen from Hawaii, and one of her daughters. One of her other daughters did fine. I should also add that this was my first winter and made lots of mistakes. This year I am making different ones. I should also add that I was paranoid, and grouped them all together and insulated the works, with each hive a small bottom and a small upper entrance. I have no idea if its necessary. 

I was quite impressed with these nucs, drawing comb at the end of the September.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

curious with this technique why people don't use 2 ten frame boxes instead of the nuc boxes on top? Also I know the bottom has a hard divider. If someone was going to go this route wouldn't it make sense to make say an 11 frame box/stand/lid and have a double screened frame partition? it would still use standard frames that can be moved and two five frame nucs would probably fit on top. But also why not just make two of these boxes so both colonies would make one large ball in the very middle of them and give heat to the other?


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Kaizen-

You want to be able to examine each side without risking the queen from one side getting to the other- you can only do that if you have nuc boxes on top of the larger divided bottom hive box. So, you can look thru the nuc box(s) on one side and then go into the divided lower box and never expose one hive to the other - especially the queens.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

I use a four compartment queen castle and find it a pain when moving them up to a larger home. I don't like leaving bees since their numbers are small at that stage, and it takes forever to get them out. I assume the double nuc has the same issue. I think I'll do this idea, but with five frame nucs bundled into pairs. This way when moving them up I can separate the box and easily shake it out. Also, if I lose any, I can re-pair them without opening them.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

OK. I've built some of the 4-frame boxes, 8 1/8" wide. I don't want to use a divided super as the base, but will use only these 8 1/8" boxes side by side at all levels. Any reason this would perform less well than the divided super on the bottom layer?

As for the the bottom board, on my full size hives I use screened bottoms for ventalation and mite drop. As these 4-frame units are smaller, would they benefit more from a solid bottom, or also should use screened? Any reason to use a full 16 1/4" bottom divided, or simply use two 8 1/8" bottoms sat directly side by side?

With the smaller populations, and possibly also solid bottom, any benefit to adding slatted racks?


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Does anyone have experience to answer these questions? I'm in 5b/6a area and want to give them the best chance... I just don't know if it makes more sense to go solid to rap heat, or screened to release more moisture in these? and is there a need for slatted racks with the smaller populations? anyone?


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

It is very easy to over-think these things, I have plenty of experience! Keep it simple. Don't add things the bees don't really need. Follow Michael Palmers plan and you should do just fine. As you get more experience make adjustments you want.

Tom


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

With respect - I think you guys are over-thinking this (as I did myself, when I first encountered the idea  )

If you watch MP's talk at the UK Honey Show (YouTube video), he says quite clearly to "use what you have". And by this he means that the fine details really aren't all that important ...

I'm currently running a couple of 5 over 5 stacks in British Nationals, and the girls love that narrow format - after all, don't bees just love chimneys ?

Shared heat across the bottom box isn't really a big deal - the bees soon ascend the stack, so what happens down below soon becomes irrelevant. I seem to remember Mike posting (somewhere ?) that he once ran a dual stack with only half of it occupied, and it made no difference at all.

The idea of running two colonies side-by-side goes way back - Jan Dzierzon wrote about this in his book 'Rational Beekeeping' in 1882. In those days it was called 'Twin Stocks'. The advantage of this format, it would seem, is that one side of the hive gets less cold, due to it not being exposed to the elements, and so the bees form their winter cluster against it. But it's about that side being 'less cold', rather than 'shared warmth' - there's a subtle difference.

LJ


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

No disrespect taken. I don't mean to overthink, just to do my best on the first attempt. While I can appreciate 'use what you have' as I grow the reality is that I don't have. If I am making something as a result, I'd like to do it only once. Surely someone out there he done these side by side to compare screened or solid bottoms, etc.


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## Gazelle (May 17, 2015)

Mr. Palmer should write a book!! I'd buy it this minute!


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## Paulemar (Aug 28, 2013)

Gazelle said:


> Mr. Palmer should write a book!! I'd buy it this minute!


 I think he's working on it, but I'll bet he is mostly trying to make a living first. Busy, busy, busy! I agree with you though, I'll be on the list to get his book as soon as it's available. The man is a wealth of freely given information. Very much, appreciated! I'll eventually be a better beekeeper because of Mike Palmer & my local Stephen Repasky.


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

DrJeseuss said:


> No disrespect taken. I don't mean to overthink, just to do my best on the first attempt. *While I can appreciate 'use what you have' as I grow the reality is that I don't have. *If I am making something as a result, I'd like to do it only once. Surely someone out there he done these side by side to compare screened or solid bottoms, etc.


Exactly. "Use what you have" is an expression which ought not to be taken literally - because - the chances of most people having the required kit is probably pretty slim ...

Do you already have a divided brood box ? Probably not. So you'll need to make one or convert one.

Will a pair of your existing nucs sit happily on top of this brood box ? Probably not - so again, you'll end-up making a pair (or a couple of pairs) of nuc boxes to fit.

Indeed, apart from the floor and roof, I'd say that the vast majority of people trying out this system will need to make at least some gear specifically for that purpose.

When MP said, "Use what you have", I believe he was referring to an attitude: to not get too hung-up on fine details or the precision of construction - but to use pretty-much anything which comes to hand which will fit-in with the basic principles.

So - 4 over 4 is ok; 5 over 5 is ok; 5 over 6 is ok - and so on ... the actual numbers themselves don't really matter.

Likewise - there's actually no need to use a split brood box: run pairs of nucs from top to bottom if you want. But - a split-brood box does make a nice firm solid base upon which to mount pairs of nucs. And there's no need to ever lift that box - only the nucs themselves need to be moved, and they can just be tilted back to inspect, rather than pull frames. That to me is one of the BIG attractions of MP's system, for pulling frames is both disruptive AND time-consuming.

Some people place straps around the nuc pairs, I've heard of others who have fitted toggle catch thingies to clamp them together. Like Mike, I just let them sit there. If a slight gap remains between them, so be it. Life isn't perfect.

I sympathise with your aim to get things right, straight from the starting block, as it were, but - like nearly all beekeeping issues - so much depends upon individual location.

I'm currently running all my boxes (including MP's towers) with open OMF's - all year round. But - the OMF's I use are dimensioned to fit the size of colony I expect to live in the box above that OMF. So - full-sized hives have full-floor OMF's - whereas purpose-made nucs have somewhere around 1/4 of their floor area fitted with mesh. 
The only exception to this are a handful of dual 3-frame mating nucs which currently have solid floors, but I'm even thinking of retro-fitting a few square inches of mesh to those floors. A winter job.

But - all the above is specific to my apiary, at MY location - and - I use bottom entrances only.

My advice to anyone contemplating the use of this system is to make just one tower, using existing equipment wherever possible, and dimension whatever is additionally manufactured to fit-in with that equipment. 

Then DO IT. Get a couple of nucleus colonies installed and keep your eye on them, and modify your setup accordingly, if this should be needed.

very best of luck.
LJ


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Little-John said:


> If you watch MP's talk at the UK Honey Show (YouTube video), he says quite clearly to "use what you have".


The whole quote is, "Use what you have or what you have access to". 

I started using divided boxes with a division board feeder. I found folks feeling they couldn't make up nuclei for wintering because they didn't have the feeder, couldn't make or buy one, and didn't get the job done because they felt that they must do it just like Mike. 

So, you can use a divided box with a solid divider, or a division board feeder, or use individual nuc box setups either stacked alone or pushed together for stability. Id doesn't matter one bit. Just do it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I'm "just doing it"! Going to move them together once the 115 heat index goes away.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

I've had mine going for a few weeks now. They are currently on Coates style swarm traps sized for 6 deep frames but holding 4 medium. I like them as swarm traps but not as nucs. Once I get my bottom and top done I'll move them to the new set. For it I've built them 4 frames wide to allow use of standard telescoping cover. They are stackable to allow vertical growth. I think I'll make screen inner covers and solid bottom for now.


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## JMoore (May 30, 2013)

DrJeseuss said:


> OK. I've built some of the 4-frame boxes, 8 1/8" wide. I don't want to use a divided super as the base, but will use only these 8 1/8" boxes side by side at all levels. Any reason this would perform less well than the divided super on the bottom layer?


They will work fine. I have 10 of these nuc setups and I use divided 10-frame deeps for the base because they're standard--I don't have to custom make them. So if I want 10 2-story nucs, I only have to build 10 custom nuc boxes instead of 20. Deeps are cheaper than building custom nucs, so there is a lot of $$$ saved by using a 10-frame standard box. If you are going to use the nuc boxes both top and bottom, why not just build 5 frame nucs? The 4-frame idea is just to correspond to the width of a 10-frame box.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> The whole quote is, "Use what you have or what you have access to".
> 
> I started using divided boxes with a division board feeder. I found folks feeling they couldn't make up nuclei for wintering because they didn't have the feeder, couldn't make or buy one, and didn't get the job done because they felt that they must do it just like Mike.
> 
> So, you can use a divided box with a solid divider, or a division board feeder, or use individual nuc box setups either stacked alone or pushed together for stability. Id doesn't matter one bit. Just do it.


use what you have great advice. After watching MP videos I did some measuring you can make divided 8 frame boxes the same way using narrow frames .since that is what I was going to use I just got busy and made all my frames . Thank you Michael Palmer for all the great advice. By the way my first package cost me 7.50 that was a looong time ago.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

JMoore said:


> If you are going to use the nuc boxes both top and bottom, why not just build 5 frame nucs? The 4-frame idea is just to correspond to the width of a 10-frame box.


I considered 5 frame nucs but like the idea that I can use standard sized outer cover, and stand. You make a good point about making only half the equipment. My reason for not using a divided box is the same reason I don't care for my queen castle... When time to move them to another hive of was a pain getting the bees out while other compartments are still occupied. It wouldn't be a big deal to lose some bees but in such a small colony I don't like losing the numbers. If I begin doing continual nucs I may have more value on the divided bottom box. We'll see.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Dan the bee guy said:


> By the way my first package cost me 7.50 that was a looong time ago.


Whoa, that was a long time ago.  My first packages cost $10.50.


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

DrJeseuss said:


> My reason for not using a divided box is the same reason I don't care for my queen castle... When time to move them to another hive of was a pain getting the bees out while other compartments are still occupied.


I'm really pleased to hear someone-else express a negative about queen castles. I've been running dual 3-frame mating nucs for a couple of years now, and they're a pain in the butt when it comes time to move the bees on to bigger boxes. Think I'll be sticking to single nuc boxes from now on - so much easier to simply shake the last of the bees out.


A question for Mike Palmer:

Mike - in your Honey Show talk, you emphasise that the bees prefer to create a brood nest next to the divider, and yet when initially making-up nucs you place a stores comb - and not a brood comb - against the divider, so that the bees need to move their stores out before beginning to lay in that comb. Can I ask what your thinking is behind this strategy ? Clearly that technique works - I was just curious about the logic behind doing this.

Many thanks
LJ


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Whoa, that was a long time ago.  My first packages cost $10.50.


When I saw that video and you said that it just made me smile.early 70s that was:applause:


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## fntsyfan (Jun 1, 2015)

schmism, the pictured Nuc setup above...did you make that or purchase? If purchase where?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Little-John said:


> A question for Mike Palmer:
> 
> Mike - in your Honey Show talk, you emphasise that the bees prefer to create a brood nest next to the divider, and yet when initially making-up nucs you place a stores comb - and not a brood comb - against the divider, so that the bees need to move their stores out before beginning to lay in that comb. Can I ask what your thinking is behind this strategy ? Clearly that technique works - I was just curious about the logic behind doing this.


Well, I was thinking that if I placed the feed frame at the sidewall, it would just sit there, but if in the center they would move it about and re-use the comb for brood. It does work that way but maybe not so important. Good to have the feed frame away from the entrance as the nucs get made up pretty weak and robbing could start if the feed was at the entrance. Perhaps I've over-thought this, but it's what I do.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Perhaps I've over-thought this, but it's what I do.


I am glad it's not just me! 




Little-John said:


> Think I'll be sticking to single nuc boxes from now on - so much easier to simply shake the last of the bees out.


 This was exactly my thought as well. Less effort, less time, same result.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

That is why I make a bottom board for each side of the double nuc. And use plumbers tape to fix it to the bottom box.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

So you shake the bees from one side while the bees are still in the other side?


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Here's what I came up with in short time. The pic is from right before I moved the frames over from the swarm boxes. These bees seem happier since being moved into their tighter quarters and have picked up pace drawing wax as well... maybe weather, maybe flow, maybe the new setup... at any rate, things are going well with these. I have kit built to add the second story and will be doing that this weekend. Now to see if they build up and survive winter here.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

In to a ten frame box. When they are ready to move to one.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

Dan the bee guy said:


> When I saw that video and you said that it just made me smile.early 70s that was:applause:


OMG the package i got this year for my first hive (now have 3) cost me $160!!! ( because of being at the last minute) why oh why....


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Someone saw you coming, beestudent... $160? Geeze


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> The whole quote is, "Use what you have or what you have access to".


I saw that video, and lots of posts here, it got me thinking.



Michael Palmer said:


> Perhaps I've over-thought this, but it's what I do.


I originally spent FAR to much time thinking, and pondering, and got totally lost in the minute details of trying to figure out how to follow your recipe exactly. The issue for me, I'm not a handy person when it comes to building stuff. I dont have the tools for most woodworking, and I dont enjoy doing it, so custom built equipment becomes a bit of a stumbling block.

Eventually I tossed out all my thoughts, went back and asked 'what is the end game'. The end game is, a laying queen in the spring, complete with a support staff strong enough to get her started on the early spring build. It's not about how we get there, it's about having that laying queen in late March, and she has enough bees and comb to make headway building up a colony.

In my case, it's far more efficient to just buy something ready made, and figure out how to get from point A to point B using that, which is exactly what I did. For my experiment year, I bought some 5 frame nuc boxes, bog standard off the shelf Mann Lake stuff. I did nothing fancy, just put 3 frames of bees into each early in the season (first week of May) and let them do their thing. When they got big enough, I put on a second story, and had a frame feeder in that box. By late August they had built up to fill a 2 high stack. I had 4 of those in the fall. The next spring, I had 3 good laying queens working in those stacks. Mission accomplished.

You guys talking about 7 and 10 dollar packages make me a bit envious. When we started out 5 years ago, 2 packages and they were in the $200+ price range each, for a couple of 4lb NZ packages that came with the option for 2 queens each. By my figuring, after I bought the nuc boxes, frames, and feeders, the tally for 4 of them runs just a bit higher than what we paid for one package, but it'll pay me back with the equivalent of 2 or 3 packages every year moving forward.

I ended up using 4+feeder over 5, and that recipe 'worked for me', but we dont typically get the cold and snow you folks in the interior see over the winter. I have 8 of them lined up this year, and next year maybe a few more, time will tell. This is what most of them looked like last spring at the beginning of April, and if we can repeat that year over year, I'm happy. I've found this recipe works, and like many of the folks here, now I'm going to be loathe to try anything different.

A laying queen early in the season, mission accomplished. I think at some point, we all spend to much time pondering 'how to get there', and lose track of the end goal.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

I have a number of splits new this year that aren't building comb fast enough to get up to 3 medium which we need for winter here. I'm thinking I may pull these down to the 4 over 4 model, which they can do. As I run medium only I assume I need 4 on 4 on 4 right? What weight is normal to winter up north in these? 50% of full size hive weight?


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Just a followup to this topic. As spring enters I've been seeing activity around the hives... but not all. I lost one 'strong' hive and both 4 over 4 double-nucs. Based on findings inside, they all had small clusters, too small to survive despite the mild winter we got. In all these I was in a rush to feed late in the season to draw frames and build weight. They all had a significant amount of uncapped nectar (30-50%), likely causing a lot of moisture inside through the winter. I don't consider the doubles to be a failure, just a bad example this season. I'll be using these doubles for my increases this sprint, then will do some late summer/fall splits to try again, this time in a 4/4/4 arrangement.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

DrJeseuss said:


> Just a followup to this topic. As spring enters I've been seeing activity around the hives... but not all. I lost one 'strong' hive and both 4 over 4 double-nucs. Based on findings inside, they all had small clusters, too small to survive despite the mild winter we got. In all these I was in a rush to feed late in the season to draw frames and build weight. They all had a significant amount of uncapped nectar (30-50%), likely causing a lot of moisture inside through the winter. I don't consider the doubles to be a failure, just a bad example this season. I'll be using these doubles for my increases this sprint, then will do some late summer/fall splits to try again, this time in a 4/4/4 arrangement.


What were the bees you started with? We all watched his video winter is your friend. We all need northern bees that survive the winter. I plan on splitting my survivors heavily this year.


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## fntsyfan (Jun 1, 2015)

I'm in Wisconsin, re-queened with Palmer queens in August.


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## maudbid (Jul 21, 2014)

I had two double nucs going into winter, 4x4 and 4x4x4. They both have plenty of stores left. In fact, in the three high they have not touched the top box in either side,with brood in the bottom and middle box. The two high went into winter with small clusters, they both had September supersedures. I did not expect them to survive the winter. I fed pollen sub and syrup to keep them brooding into October as a last ditch measure. They are both doing fine and both have brood and are building up. They just might make it to summer.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

All my queens are local mutts I've raised. The first I started with was from a local cutout. All the hives I lost still had heavy amounts of nectar stores, no signs of brood and little or no pollen, and clusters about 3-4 inch across. In all I lost three and so far kept four. In such a mild winter if they couldn't make it I don't want them. Survivors only please.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I had similar results, but I think the problem may have been my beekeeping rather than overwintering ability. Not enough weather protection in combination with moisture wicking in with newspaper resulted in deadouts and small clusters. Sugar made things worse and will do things differently next year. I had better success my first year. 

So I gave the small clusters that did survive a chance. Since it was too cold to manipulate frames with brood, I put a snelgrove board on top of strong hives and siphoned some bees to micro clusters above. I'm in a similar zone (6). I did this at the beginning of march and was 3 for 3 getting the clusters going again. One attracted enough foragers that its sitting on 7 frames of brood, with the first bees ready to emerge.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

fntsyfan said:


> I'm in Wisconsin, re-queened with Palmer queens in August.


Did you have to get on a waiting list?


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## WRLCPA (May 12, 2014)

I am using my Nuc's for a slightly different reason this year. 

I moved last fall and could not take my overwintered nuc's with me so I am starting over from scratch. I am getting two nuc's on, what I am told, is the beginning of the spring flow in South Carolina. So in hopes of being able to harvest honey THIS year, I will install the 2 nuc's into a Divided Deep, 5 frames each side, place a queen excluder on top of the deep and another deep on top of that with empty frames, etc.

My hope is that I will be able to extract a deep of honey and then expand the nuc's into individual deeps when the flow is over.

A potential side benefit might be that the bottom nuc chambers become brood bound (All five frames full of brood) from which I can pull a frame of brood from each side (2 frames total) and create new nuc's from.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Depending on the divider, you may not get 5/5 in a normal hive body/ I have a hive divided w/ 1x that knocks me down to 4/5 (9 total) at best. A thiner divide could get you that last frame, but be VERY careful they stay lined up or you'll be losing queens. In my experience, sharing a hive w/ more than one colony was a hassle. I like the doubles better as I can readily separate and move colonies w/o disturbing the others. When both are in one box, moving them up to another box becomes challenging unless you're willing to give up some bees. No matter how careful, there will be bees left in the box, and any flying will come back to the empty box as well. Since there are two colonies, it's not as easy to put a 'catch box' to get any trailers to return to the new colony. These difficulties have moved me to prefer the double nuc setup over queen castles for increase as well. Experiment and make your own opinion, but think ahead as some activities won't go 'by the book' in a single divided box.

As an aside, I put a 'nuc' in a full size medium last fall, with a divider in place to cut them to 5 frames. I added a second story w/ 5 more as they grew. They waxed faster than another colony with 10 frames across in a single medium box. As the 5 over 5 grew from there, I moved the divider over and added a frame to the center of both boxes each time until they reached a full 20 frames. They did this better than reaching 10, then adding another super of 10 more, which waxed much slower. This was only a 1:1 test, so I can't say it would go this way again, but in this case, it went well in the flexible space of the 'divided' hive.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Whoa, that was a long time ago.  My first packages cost $10.50.


My first bees were free but the first (and only) package I bought back then was $25. I lost one in 1979. 
Queens were $5-$7.50 range.

Last year I saw these double nuc things. I traded for a 8 frame nuc that came out of a double like in this discussion. I thought it was nifty so I built one from old hive bodies. Wasn't long before I had bees in it. As soon as I realized how handy it is to have these double nuc base things I built another and again...as soon as it was done nature provided the bees. (it works that way)

So this spring I'm building 4 more for a total of 6 double nucs with top stories for over-wintering small colonies. It worked so danged well with two (four colonies) that I'm hooked and plan on making many more of these things. They winter bees on a fraction of the honey a full two-deep colony goes thru.

Once I figured out I can stack a third deep nuc on top, (both sides) use an excluder on both sides and let two colonies work on a super...I was really hooked then.

For wintering imagine a row of them all sharing inner walls. Insulate and wrap them up and woa. The idea is to have lots of queens in the early spring. I like it!

Can we just start calling them "Palmer nucs"?


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## fntsyfan (Jun 1, 2015)

Dan the bee guy said:


> Did you have to get on a waiting list?


Dan, No he posted here that he had some available. I emailed him and he sent the queens and a few weeks later I got a invoice in the mail.


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

aunt betty,

Yes I think that we should call them "Palmer Nuc's".

I pre date you by a few years and the bees and equipment all came from Sears and Roebuck.

You seem to favor 8 frame equipment but for those that prefer 10 frame Lang. equipment it is very easy to skinny down the thickness of both of the long sides of the NUC's to 3/8" - 1/4 " plywood,while leaving the front and back @ 1" solid material (actually 3/4"), and you can make each NUC a five framer (snug) and thus stay with 10 frame and five frame equipment. I have a lot of 5 over 5 over 5 NUC's now that made it through the winter. 

Steve


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Mine are 3/4" all around, but I suspect having the thinner side might help thermal sharing over the winter... though I'm not sure this is the actual gain, or if it's the lesser thermal loss from the unexposed side. In any case, it's a benefit.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

DrJeseuss said:


> Mine are 3/4" all around, but I suspect having the thinner side might help thermal sharing over the winter... though I'm not sure this is the actual gain, or if it's the lesser thermal loss from the unexposed side. In any case, it's a benefit.


I made mine with a thin side I use narrow frames you can't get 5 frames in the box if all the supers have full boards. It's still a little tight but I don't pull frames to much in the nucs


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