# hives crashing



## lake thompson honey (Feb 11, 2007)

heard that alot of hives are once again crashing around the country. also hearing that nosema levels are off the charts. can anyone confirm or deny?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

We have low spore counts. I know of another beek up our way with the same. Both of us have been testing and treating for a couple seasons now, to good effect so far.
Nos C is one disease beekeepers better be proactive about. If they wait til they are collapsing to figure out they have a problem it is probably too late, especially going into winter. 
Sheri


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Talked with Bob Reiners (SD state inspector) recently about nosema and he said that they are seeing much higher nosema levels this year than last with some bees already showing the ill effects. Guess only time will tell what the big picture is nationwide.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

It is my understanding that poor forage/nutrition exacerbates Nos C outbreaks. The poor late summer/fall forage conditions throughout the northern tier U.S. does not bode well for honeybees going into winter. I have heard widespread reports of anywhere between 1/4 to 3/4 the normal crop but haven't heard much about collapses yet. I sure hope we don't see another big round of colony losses. It will be a tough winter for any ferals out there, at least in our area, considering they weren't bringing anything in since late July.
Sheri


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

We made an ok crop, considering we lost over 3 weeks in August due to cool & wet conditions.
I have found in some locations that did not make a crop that there seems to be a problem with poor bees.
The bees that got moved yesterday look to good, but are real heavy!
Then here in Omaha at 7:00 AM there is an honest 6" of snow on the deck table.
Trees still have leaves on & what not.
Picked several dozen ears of sweet corn yesterday.
Just isn't right!


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Are the current bad weather conditions preventing or stoped fall medications for Nosema and mites?

Regards,
Ernie


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

Just spoke with my son at the farm 75 miles west of Omaha.
He only has 2" on snow on the ground, but 10 to 20 miles south of him there is 4 to 6" easy in the Platte river bottom.
Said he put his long handles on & was still cold when he went out to fill the corn bucket.
We no longer treat for Noesma.
Found there was no difference in the tests we did & what the neighbors also saw in the hives treated or untreated.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)




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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Both of us have been testing and *treating* for a couple seasons now, to good effect so far.

Are you using the Fumagillin dribbling method?

And, are you treating for _Nosema ceranae?_
Regards,
Ernie


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## lake thompson honey (Feb 11, 2007)

heard from several friends this week who are having big problems with hives crashing. they dont know what to do and they are going downhill fast.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

BEES4U said:


> Are you using the Fumagillin dribbling method?
> And, are you treating for _Nosema ceranae?_
> Regards,
> Ernie


Sorry, Ernie, didn't see this til now. We are feeding Fum in syrup, and yes, for Nos C. This coming spring we will be testing nosevit and also just regular sub.
Don't want to be trying anything new this time of year and risk that pollination check. We don't like changing what works, but if we can accomplish the same with much less money we are all for that.

LTH, can your friends count out mites and Nosema C?
Sheri


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

lake thompson honey said:


> heard from several friends this week who are having big problems with hives crashing. they dont know what to do and they are going downhill fast.


This may or may not apply, but it's an interresting and valuable read, regardless of whether or not it applies in this situation...

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/joe-traynor/october-is-the-cruelest-month/


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*It applies.
It applies*

*I posted this full information sheet because sometimes a link,URL is over looked!*
Beesource Beekeeping > Point of View > Joe Traynor > *October is the Cruelest Month*October is the Cruelest Month 
BEE CULTURE, October 2009

by Joe Traynor

It’s October and you’re a European honey bee colony in North Dakota (or S. Dakota, Minnesota, Montana). Decreasing day length in the previous months has triggered an eons-old message: get ready for winter. In case you missed the early signals, a couple of recent frosts re-enforces them. Your body fat reserves are hoarded, your metabolism drops and you go into a state of suspended animation – a state of hibernation not unlike that of your age-old enemy, the bear.

Clouds form, precursor of a coming storm, and out of nowhere you hear a familiar clattering of equipment. Some of your housemates peer out the entrance of your domicile, report some giant forks approaching and spread the word: we’re moving again. You don’t know it, because no one has survived the return trip to tell about it, but you’re going to California!

After a couple of days on the road, you stop at the California border and, sleepy-eyed, suffer the indignity of uniformed humans with flashlights peering into your living room (who are these people?!). You’re soon on the road and several hours later you find yourself in the great Central Valley of California. The next day breaks warm and sunny – it will hit 90 degrees that afternoon! – and you awake from your torpor. The word soon spreads – worker bees unite:\its summer again — get out there and hunt & gather!

You and your fat-enriched housemates do your duty, searching for pollen and nectar in an ever expanding circle – up to a four-mile radius! Upon returning to the hive, all reports from foragers are the same: “What the # %#*&?! there’s nothing out there! Is our keeper out of his ##&** mind?! He’s never done this to us before!” The fruitless foraging trips continue for a few weeks until cooler weather again gives the signal you originally got back home: prepare for winter. Some of the fellow-colonies in your apiary, out of desperation, start practicing some distinctly anti-social behavior for a social insect: they rob their mates of their hard-earned stores with the fittest colonies robbing the weaker ones to the point where the weak ones can no longer survive. Because weak colonies are more likely to harbor pests and diseases, such robbing behavior serves to exacerbate conditions by spreading these nasties throughout the apiary. The weak colonies exact their revenge from the grave.

As you again prepare for winter you look at the depleted population of your housemates with concern –* instead of fat healthy bees, they, and you, have turned into tired, skinny, sickly bees. The food reserves in your pantry are dangerously low, your immune system is weakened making you more susceptible to nosema and every kind of virus out there.* You watch helplessly as your housemates succumb to various maladies. From fat happy bees back home, your colony has turned into a demoralized population ready for the nursing home. Winter die-off continues and when almond bloom starts, your colony is a long ways from the 8-frames of bees that your keeper has promised his almond grower. October in California is no country for old bees.

Beekeepers that haul bees from the northern tier of states to California for almond pollination are familiar with the above scenario. They learn early on that the last loads of bees they haul (in early December) fare much better than those hauled in October. Out-of-state beekeepers are faced with a classic Catch 22 dilemma: bring the bees out in October and they will gradually go downhill; wait until December and you risk getting snowed in or having to transport bees on dangerously icy roads.

Beekeepers in North Dakota must get their bees out before they get snowed in. Beekeepers in western Montana and northern Washington have more time and many delay the California trip until December, keeping a close eye on the weather for an open window in which to haul. Some of these beekeepers have their own trucks and can easily coordinate trucking schedules with road and weather conditions. Beekeepers that must hire commercial truckers don’t have this scheduling luxury so most opt to get their bees to California early enough to neutralize later weather challenges.

Some beekeepers have solved the problem by putting their bees in storage – many use old potato sheds in Idaho. These storage sheds are temperature controlled and are provided with air-circulation fans; the sheds serve to maintain bees in a hibernation-like state until they are hauled to California in January or February (many Canadian beekeepers successfully over-winter their bees in storage sheds). Wintering bees in sheds has its own set of problems: without cleansing flights, dysentery and other diseases can more easily spread through a colony; a breakdown in temperature control or air circulation can cause problems. Through years of experience (including some trial and error) a number of beekeepers have been able to successfully winter their bees in sheds. Don’t try it yourself without first getting a lot of input from a veteran of shed storage.

*Other beekeepers have minimized the “October problem” by slapping supplemental protein-pollen feed on the colonies as soon as they hit California.* This feed can reduce or eliminate the energy-wearing fruitless flights that would normally occur and can also reduce robbing. Some beekeepers have access to coastal or southern California locations where fall and winter flowers serve to maintain the health of colonies. The San Joaquin Valley though, where most out-of-state bees wind up, is a desert for honey bees from September to February.

In contrast to out-of-state bees that are hauled to California, bees that are maintained in the San Joaquin Valley throughout the summer and fall fare much better. They “know the territory” through months of experience and, come October, they know enough not to make fruitless foraging flights. They hunker down in October, protecting the colony from robbing and when cooler temperatures arrive in late November, followed by cold foggy weather in December-January, they are able to emerge in February in reasonably good condition, *especially if they have been given a supplemental protein-pollen feed in September.*

*The above very useful information should be read over, reviewed, memorized and applied.*Regards,
Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BEES4U said:


> The above very useful information should be read over, reviewed, memorized and applied.Regards,
> Ernie


With all due respect Ernie, I highly disagree with some parts.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

"With all due respect Ernie, I highly disagree with some parts." I'll second that. Ah, once again the "evil" beekeeper.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Help!!!!

Alpha picking on me again.  lol


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## BRescue (Jul 2, 2009)

Just curious. Has anyone verified with a microscope which one of the Nosema strains it is, apis or ceranae, if it is in fact Nosema?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

You don't need a microscope to diagnose Nosema Apis, the symptoms are obvious and seldom seen in late summer. The spores are difficult to tell apart but if there are no Nos A symptoms and a high spore count by deduction spores are most likely Nosema C. 
Sheri


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

With all due respect Ernie, I highly disagree with some parts. 

Can we all agree on nutrition?
Of course we can.
Can we disect Joe's article?
Now where is that semi of brewtech that I ordered?

Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BEES4U said:


> Now where is that semi of brewtech that I ordered?
> 
> Ernie


Brewtech  are they still over priced & under power? Ernie, try Avintine.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

http://www.aventinerei.com/feedgradeyeast.html

43-p or 62-p?


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Help!!!!
> 
> Alpha picking on me again.  lol


Ah yes. Winter has arrived here at beesource. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEtuXrV_KnM


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

1.0 This statement is one that I question and needs some documentation:

In contrast to out-of-state bees that are hauled to California, bees that are maintained in the San Joaquin Valley throughout the summer and fall fare much better. 

2.0 Dead foragers do not tell or pass on information to their sisters
They “know the territory” through months of experience and, come October, 

3.0 No, I do not agree.
they know enough not to make fruitless foraging flights. 

3.0 I have seen my own bees with two frames average of brood in October.
They hunker down in October, 

4.0 Progressive robbing goes on and on and on.

protecting the colony from robbing and when cooler temperatures arrive in late November, 

5.0 I have seen bees working the Red Eucalyptus along the old 99 route in mid December

Just a few of my thoughts,
Ernie
followed by cold foggy weather in December-January, they are able to emerge in February in reasonably good condition, especially if they have been given a supplemental protein-pollen feed in September.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

john and sheri k write:
You don't need a microscope to diagnose Nosema Apis, the symptoms are obvious and seldom seen in late summer.

tecumseh:
the most obvious signs of nosema apis may be VERY EVIDENT in the northern tier states at one particular time of the year. here any real clue on sign of nosema is never obvious... matter of fact the signs are always quite subtle.

one long standing (and often unnoticed) symptom of nosema is that bees will fly when the air temperature is cooler than when healthy bees will fly. in these circumstance it is quite unlikely nosema affected bees will return to the hive.

for myself I can somewhat predict nosema affected hives at certain times of the year by following the clues present. if you desired to know rather than speculate then a microscope or some lab resources would be helpful.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

11/26/09

Is there any recent news on CCD?
Ernie


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## lake thompson honey (Feb 11, 2007)

lots and lots of bees crashing. i have talked to several beekeepers lately and it is not a good situation. california is really bad. some friends in texas not doing well either.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Finished pulling honey today(pepper). Best bees I have had in ten yrs. Most colonies have 2-4 frames brood, really starting to expand and lay eggs. hives average 7-8 frames bees adn up. Only about 10% are less than 5 frames and most of those are 2-4 framers with brood. All look healthy. Just hope I dont jinx it!!!


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Not done pulling my pepper honey yet, but just as Sutton experienced the bees look great. Opened 75 hives yesterday and also had 2-4 frames of brood, still bring in a little pollen and maple should start soon.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Sutton and Peacekeeper,
Your bees are coming off a natural nectar and pollen flow. The crashing bees were probally on a artificial diet and coming off of a no flow stretch. Whats the secret for keeping mites off of your bees when they constantly have supers on them? Send me a PM if you don't want to post it here.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Beeslave
THese bees were in your area all summer(redgrantie Wi). Made a 25 lb crop. Brought to FL Oct 4(two weeks late) or we would have had a 100 lb crop here. They brooded up good and have had lots of pollen since(its been a good year(fall) here for the bees). I usuallly bring them down dec 1 as I let them go broodless then treat for mites when I get to Fl. They hit the warm weather and start brooding with mape blooming 10 days later( dec12). Since I was in Wi and they were light I brought them down earlier. Pepper flow can really build bees IF you can find a spot! For mites I DONT USE LEGAL pesticides....(flavinuate,chomphus) I believe they both are hell on queens/drones. and if you use both when they mix togather its BIG trouble. Since I quit flavinuate and watch where I sit the bees my bees look better.(didnt use chumpus but first yr) I use thymol patty I make with wintergreen, cinnamon. ALso formic. If you have to use a pesticide(due to weather)I would use taktic(amitraz). YES amitraz is not legal, no one has paid fda to approve it! Its better NOT to use pesticides in your hive, but amitraz is MUCH safer than the legal ones as far as the bees and doesnt have the residual.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

suttonbeeman said:


> but amitraz is MUCH safer than the legal ones as far as the bees and doesnt have the residual.


This you know as fact how? Have you had your combs tested? Residue can be in both wax and honey.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

barry said:


> this you know as fact how? Have you had your combs tested? .


yes


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I thought you were still under the bus pages ago!

So you have used amitraz for how many years? Do you cycle out your combs? If so, how many years of use do the combs get? Oh man of few words, please give me more. :lookout:


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Barry said:


> I thought you were still under the bus pages ago!
> 
> So you have used amitraz for how many years? Do you cycle out your combs? If so, how many years of use do the combs get? Oh man of few words, please give me more. :lookout:


I am still under the Bus, Hambone threw me a bull horn.

Amitraz going on 20 years off & on, Cycle combs not much,it's how you apply is the key. amitraz beaks down to two other compounds that are tracable.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

Sutton: Im totally stealing your hive management scheme. lol!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

OK Keith, I'll take your word for it. I have to challenge statements that are made as facts, when specific data is lacking.

Can I get you anything? Pillow, blanket, . . .? You're sure you're alright under there?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

The UGA beelab (Jennifer Berry, Keith Delaplane) have been conducting toxicity studies and, I believe, testing comb using approved and commonly used unapproved compounds, including Amitraz. I understand that they've already completed their data collection, so the results should be coming soon. It ought to be interesting.
I think this was funded as part of the $4million CAPS grant that was awarded to study the health of pollinators.


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## mbholl (Dec 16, 2007)

SUTTONBEEMAN:

Is your thymol, wintergreen, cinnamon patty a 'grease patty' or 'pollen sub'?


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

Barry said:


> This you know as fact how? Have you had your combs tested? Residue can be in both wax and honey.


 I have some friends in Ga that placed Amitraz in the hive during the honey flow ,and then sent samples of honey and wax to get tested.Both tests came back negative . Tac Tic breaks down extremely fast I only use it for a one day kill.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Sutton,
Thanks for the reply. Do you apply formic as soon as you pull supers in WI or when you resuper in FL? Not trying to pry but I need to to better manage mine. Do you use 65% formic approximately 30ml on towels?


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

amitraz is the new miracle cure.lol now there will be all kinds of guys trying to use tac tic on everything. might as well throw treating with maverik into this subject so we all can really dope some bees up


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Barry said:


> This you know as fact how? Have you had your combs tested? Residue can be in both wax and honey.


Amitraz in the form of Apivar is legal in Canada via a Section 18 registration.

This french study 

http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=article&access=doi&doi=10.1051/apido:2007038

states

"Following Apivar treatment, amitraz was not detected in honey nor in wax."


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Trevor Mansell said:


> I have some friends in Ga that placed Amitraz in the hive during the honey flow ,and then sent samples of honey and wax to get tested.Both tests came back negative .<snip by mod>


I'll have to tell the one person that I know that uses it. he has been losing 50-90% of his bees every year, maybe if he treats with his supers on and not so late in the year he will be able to over winter more hives.

mike syracuse


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

That could help your friend only if mites are his problem. It won't solve pesticide, fungicide, or nosema issues and it could cause contamination to his honey.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Sorry for the delay in getting back...but I'm making splits, trying to get doen to go back north for xmas....geez 80 degrees here why do I want to go north?. Barry I have had my wax/honey tested no residual, but I try not to use insecticides unless I have to! I use West VA method of formic (google WV univ mite formic) or a shop towell in plastic bag(65%). I hope the new formic treatment thats coming out isnt too expensive, as it will be less labor. I treat when I get to FL and the bees are broodless, this year since I came down early I'm treating now. I treated in Wi this year using taktic as I didnt have time/equipment to use formic available an mite counts were ok but getting to where I needed to treat. I usually treat twice a year. Bettter go extraction crew is here.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

wildbranch2007 said:


> ...... maybe if he treats with his supers on



NOT!!!! 
Do not treat with supers on!!!


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Honey Shack is right...if people start treating with supers on it is going to have a negative backlash with the public on honey. If this guy is having 50-90% of his hives crashing then I would say he needs to re-look his management style.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Just one woman consumer's input:

First I started no longer buying honey in the supermarket if it said anything about Produced in China. I knew it had to be full of nasty chemicals and pesticides, because in China they apparently don't give a **** about public health. Heck two of my 4 pet cats died because of the poison pet food ingredient from China.

Then I stopped buying honey in the supermarket even if it said it came from Argentina, etc...because i knew it might be from China and be just distributed through Argentina and other countries. Only U.S and Canadian honey for me! Hmm...That meant no more buying supermarket honey.

So then I started buying all my honey at local farmstands and local produce markets, figuring that it was definitely honey from local sources so it had to be relatively safe to eat.

Now it's come down to my questioning individual local apiary practices so I'm not buying honey that's full of excessively and randomly applied antibiotics and chemicals and pesticides. 

There's one local apiary left now on my shopping list that I do trust- I see his hives lined up in the fields of a large and very respected local organic family farm, and I've asked the food farmers about his BK methods.
This week I'm going to the farmstand that carries his honey and buying about $60 worth of it for our family winter consumption. I myself put 3 tablespoons of honey into my tea every evening, and I'm more than happy to pay extra for honey that I know to be less contaminated by pesticides and 'treatments'.

Hopefully by next Fall I should be producing my own home honey. But I'll likely still buy some of his too on occasion just to keep supporting it.

Just one consumer's opinion.
Bad reports on U.S. chemically contaminated honey would be very bad indeed for the whole U.S honey industry. At that point, the public will figure why not just buy cheaper imported honey anyway, or even to _buy no honey at all_.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Omie posts compelling arguments for treating properly! Yes there are some who do not treat, and some who do.
For those of us who do treat, there is a reason why there are withdrawal times on drugs.
There is a reason why there is recommended doses. Too much is a bad thing and will change the withdrawal times. 
We need to be efficient in our treatments. Effective in our treatments. Mindful of our treatments and Watch the withdrawal times and the amount used.
We need to only use "approved drugs" in our hives. These drugs have been tested for withdrawal and residues.
We need to take care when extracting honey that the brood chamber not get extracted if those frames had treatments applied
We need to take care and cull out old frames on a regular basis. Be that yearly or 2x a year. Replacing frames are a cheap way to keep diseases in check and a good way of reducing residue in honey.

it comes down to good management practices in our hives...with the end result that our honey is proven to be better than the overseas imported stuff...keeping in mind the consumer pays our bills.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Saw this on Bee-L:

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gen..._one_villain_behind_honey-bee_colony_collapse

"As examples of worrisome stresses, Pettis described sublethal doses of pesticides, under study in cooperative research with Galen Dively of the University of Maryland in College Park. In this work, bees didn’t die from weeks of exposure to a neonicotinoid pesticide. But when the same bees faced a later challenge, the nasty fungal pathogen Nosema ceranae, they developed worrisome infections. Pesticide-exposed bees ended up with three to four times as many Nosema spores in their body as did bees without the pesticide preview. “It’s a very subtle interaction we wouldn’t have detected” without the specific test, Pettis said."
--

It would be good to see the same test done on other ag and beek applied chemicals.


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## ACBEES (Mar 13, 2009)

How is this for a wild idea? Maybe what we are calling CCD is actually a form of AIDS in honey bees! In Humans, AIDS is caused by a virus. People don't die from this virus, they die from the affects of what this virus does to the human immune system. It degrades it to the point that the body can't fight off infections from a whole list of bacteria, viruses and protozoans that normally don't give healthy humans trouble.

We all know the honey bee does not have the best immune system in the insect world. Maybe the chemical ****tail honey bees are exposed to daily through foraging and beekeeping mgmnt. practices is having the same affect on the honey bee immune system that the aids virus has on the human system. A weakened immune system allows pathogens and parasites to get an upper hand.

It is my understanding the worker bees play a major role in determining the tone of the colony. Maybe when chemical contamination reaches a critical point and you start to have massive immune system failure allowing disease, parasites etc. to flourish, they can sense that they are facing a hopeless situation and their way of dealing with it is to walk out.....colony collapse.

Whether it is a virus in humans or a chemical ****tail in honey bees, maybe there is a parallel between the two cuases and affects.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

ACBEES said:


> Maybe when chemical contamination reaches a critical point and you start to have massive immune system failure allowing disease, parasites etc. to flourish, <snip by mod>


I very much believe this is true.
The bees are like canaries in the coal mine shaft. In my opinion, the collapse of the bee's ability to cope with the ever increasing mix of toxic chemicals, treatments, and pesticide/herbicide poisons inflicted upon them causes a weakened resistance to diseases and parasites. It's all trying to tell us something, but we don't see the forest for the trees. Instead we keep pointing a finger at mites, at nosema, at some fungus or another, at cell phone towers, at.....
Like by eliminating a symptom we will cure the problem.
-just my personal opinion.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

We all have opinions on what is causing the large losses, some of which may prove true. I happen to believe most losses are caused by failure to control varroa, rather than the treatment itself.
But this study seems to point specifically at sublethal effects of the neo-nics. That is ,the bees were made more susceptible to N.ceranae from prior exposure to neo-nics.I would like to see the actual paper.


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