# Detailed advice for first year treatment free beekeeper



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

My suggestions are specific to your particular circumstances. I've been treatment free since 2005 and did NOT get to ease into it.

If you have few choices for bees, get a commercial package and swap out the queen with a TF queen. Options for queens are limited, but at minimum, investigate Carpenter Apiaries, Anarchy Apiaries, Russian queens, and Beeweaver. Keep in mind that Beeweaver's bees are significantly africanized!

It is very important to get all colonies in an apiary requeened with TF queens. Don't just do one or two colonies, the treated colonies can cause TF bees to collapse because of the mite load that develops in treated colonies.

If you have to requeen a colony that has a significant mite population, first treat for the mites, then requeen with a TF queen. The TF queen has to have at least 4 weeks to get eggs laid and enough brood attendants hatched.

When all the colonies are TF, you can pretty much feed or not feed at your discretion. I advise avoiding feeding as much as possible because bees consuming honey and pollen are generally healthier and more disease resistant than bees on an artificial diet. There are exceptions to this, for example, maize pollen is deficient in two critical amino acids so if bees are solely on maize for pollen, an alternate protein source should be considered.

There is a lot of discussion in past threads about using small cell. I can't speak to other beekeepers and bee genetics, but my bees are doing fine with both small cell and large cell combs. I can see some management advantages to using 5.1 foundation. If you are starting out, consider getting 5.1 for the first round of combs. Then if you choose to move down to 4.9, the step can be easily achieved by swapping in full sheets of foundation. 

Alternatively, use foundationless frames and let the bees build what they choose. If you decide to use foundationless, attach starter strips to a few of the top bars so the bees start out with straight combs. Bees will build a lot of drone cells so be prepared to swap out frames to get a full set of worker size combs.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Thanks Dar. 3 of 5 are requeened with sam comfort. 1 is local VSH carni. 1 is a swarm queen daughter (unknown origin). My topbar is all foundationless (ofcourse). Rest are mixed frames (some foundation and some foundationless). 

One way to describe my TF feeling right now is that of standing on Eiffel Tower glass floor. You see other people stand on that glass floor, yet highly nervous about doing it yourself


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

dar (as always) is giving very good advice.

my 2 cents?

try to get up to at least 10 hives if finances and time allow it. start raising your own queens from the best of your best. try to have at least 2 queenlines so that they all don't end up being from the same line. do enough nuc production to keep yourself with the nominal 10 plus a couple of extras and sell off the rest.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Thanks both. First year, did you guys feel you may not make it? How did you shake that feeling off and go through winter ?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i wasn't aware enough about tf in my first year to even know the difference but i got lucky in that i just so happened to get bees from a long term tf supplier. i didn't have any losses in my first two winters.

dar's experience is a little different, as he had bees before varroa, then lost all of his colonies except one when mites arrived, and has rebuilt from there, but i'll let him tell his story.

trying to put myself in your shoes daisy, and like dar suggested with which i agree, there's no shame in using treatments as a stop gap measure until you get to the point you don't need them anymore, assuming it's possible to get to that point in your location.

losing colonies is part of everyone's beekeeping and i may be cold hearted but i've never really worried too much about losing a colony as there are plenty more where those come from. losing a lot of time and money invested would be more bothersome to me.

since i experience pretty low percentage losses i'm viewing the losses as getting rid of those colonies that couldn't cut it for whatever reason to make room for those that can, and i believe that i'm seeing net improvement from season to season in terms of survival and production.

if you are limited to just a few hives you will have to depend on bringing in resistant queens from others, hope that they do well in your specific location, and hope that you can get them when you need them.

if you can grow to 10 or more you have a better chance at becoming self-sustaining with it.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Different people approach things in different ways. My way of dealing with uncertainty is to ask "what is the worst thing that can happen and how much will it cost?" Then I can say ok, if the worst happens, here is how I will rebuild. It is kind of like building a house and knowing there is a chance it could burn down so you get insurance to cover rebuilding. In your case, you have 5 hives of bees and replacing them with packages would cost about $500. So your worst case loss is now known.

Now here is what I would do. I would order 2 or 3 packages now and get them delivered at the time you want them, early bird and all that. Then I would put aside $200 to $300 to replace the rest of the bees just in case. Now lets look at it again. You have a few packages on order so in the best case you have 8 colonies of bees next spring (5 overwintered, 3 packages). Worst case, you lose all 5 and still get 3 packages so you are back in business. By the end of the year, you can use the cash to purchase TF queens and build back to 5 colonies.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

First off, get over your fear of loosing bees, it will happen I promise, even treaters lose colonies. Only difference is forus treatment free beekeepers it's a good thing it weeds out the weak genetics. There are things you can do to minimize loosing the whole colony and that is take your losses now. Being a first yr beekeeper it's hard to know how strong they need to be for your area but no matter what you will need lots of young fat nurse bees, any small colonies that don't have pretty good brood patterns by the end of the month combine them, that will help them get through the winter and you can requeen with genetics that do survive this yr without much help.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Good perspective(s). I met another beekeeper from same town who started last year. From what I understand, she treated properly but lost both full size hives over last winter and ended up purchasing Nucs again. It doesn't make me happy, but does give me some perspective.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I would say this. I haven't been at this long, but don't panic. If given the chance, bees themselves can fix most problems. I've been my own worst enemy at times worrying about my bees. 90% of the time, I am the last thing they need. Trust your bees, the ones that survive.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

In my 3rd summer and have never treated a colony. But right off the bat I absorbed the lesson on making increase and overwintering nucleus colonies and how it could make TF possible. Thank you M. Palmer.

The first year I started with one nucleus colony on May 29th. I ordered and got 4 Saskatraz (good breeding for varroa resistance) queens by the 3rd week in June, dividing that poor colony into 5. I also got a swarm cell from a local keep and made a couple lousy queens so I went into winter with 8 nucleus colonies on about 10 medium frames each. I fed those suckers so each had lots of food on hand. I insulated them and overwintered as a group and held my breath. Much too my surprise, 6 came out on cleansing flights on warm days in winter. All Saskatraz queens made it as well as the swarm cell queen, as well as a daughter of that first Hawaiian queen. 


I almost destroyed a third of that success the second year by moving 2 colonies across the yard too soon when there wasn't a nectar flow. They lost their foragers and got robbed bad. I did manage to keep them going and they eventually built up, but I had 4 strong colonies left to start making nucs as well as make queens. I had a poor start as I didn't have a good idea about cell builders, and it took some time to get going. My lousy queen from the previous summer got superceded early and produced 2 nice queen cells that got me going. I also got a swarm that was a useful brood resource. I ended up with 26 nucs, but not many were strong and I put them on a site that had a dearth in August that set them back. 

I changed my overwintering setup and it didn't work out quite so well that winter. Lots of moisture problems that were corrected too late. Only 12 made it to establish colonies this spring as well as 4 of 6 big colonies. One was definitely a mite bomb. 

This year I got a much better start. Used snelgrove boards to produce early queens and cut cells for later. I also made a few 2 queen hives in the process. So it looks like I will be going into winter with 19 hives in big boxes and 44 nucs, some on 20 medium frames. The newer ones that are light I'm already beginning to feed using fatbeeman style feeders, to get their weight up to M. Palmer standards. They are much stronger as a group than last year. 

My take home message is if you are in an area where somewhat successful TF keepers are already and you have their or other resistant stock and you are making nucs for increase, your biggest problem will not be the bees surviving mites, rather the bees surviving you. Its gonna take a while settle into a management system that works. As I've discovered, its not a straight line and curve balls are coming my way for sure. 

Also remember a deadout is not a total loss. The comb produced and the honey left is a valuable resource that should be managed and preserved. It will make remaining hives stronger.

I also build much of my own equipment. Makes the financial side of things much more palatable.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

I'm stuck on the fence, this year I lost 13 of 17 colonies here in AZ trying to go treatment free.
Just did a mite count on the last one and have 1,2,1 for the 3 last hives.
and 1 for each of the 3 nucs I recently made
Now I'm really worried I may loose all.
I just may let them go but they are all I have here, and Arizona is not Oregon
seriously on the fence, not knowing which way to go.

Going to Oregon in a few days to check the 6 up there, 
they have survived 2 yrs with no treatments, 
my guess is them being feral mutts from a 5+yr old barn hive we have.

Thinking of sending Queens to AZ from our Oregon apiary next year, and giving my Mutts a go here in the mountains.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I heard a presentation of a TF keeper and queen rearer from Arizona I believe. I would check your local sources.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

lharder said:


> In my 3rd summer and have never treated a colony. But right off the bat I absorbed the lesson on making increase and overwintering nucleus colonies and how it could make TF possible. Thank you M. Palmer.


:thumbsup:




lharder said:


> take home message is if you are in an area where somewhat successful TF keepers are already and you have their or other resistant stock and you are making nucs for increase, your biggest problem will not be the bees surviving mites, rather the bees surviving you.


 so true lharder.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

lharder said:


> .... I also got a swarm cell from a local keep and made a couple lousy queens so I went into winter with 8 nucleus colonies on about 10 medium frames each.....


About 80 frames first year from one Nuc ? Awesomely cool. I am struggling to get four 10 deeps out of two Nucs this year.


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