# "What's a Bee Haver?"



## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

It has been said that before mites became a significant problem, practically anyone could keep bees without much effort. Now, however, with all the honeybee pests and diseases we are dealing with, a person can not be merely a “bee-haver” but rather he or she must be a “bee-keeper” in every sense of the word. 

That is to say, today’s beekeepers must stay on top of various methodologies and treatments in order to maintain their bee colonies. With that in mind, most beekeepers are using what is called IPM or “Integrated Pest Management” practices, in order to keep their bee colonies healthy and vigorous. 

-- Fred Hembree, in Farming Magazine. Fall 2009


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Beehaver(behavior)-Someone who can manipulate bees to behave how they want when they want. A very good keeper of bees

Bee Haver(Have[r])-Some one who has bees but cannot manipulate them to behave how they want(should). The bees die, swarm, don't produce surplus honey, become diseased and the beekeeper doesn't know why. Someone who has bees and that is about all they can say about the bee.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Seems to me that I am seeing more folks who just want to have bees and that's all.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

A bee haver is like somebody who feeds wild birds all winter, but then goes to Florida for a week. Somebody who gets a dog and ends up leaving it penned up in the yard. A person who has a real nice car but doesn't know where the dipstick is (or what it's for). The teenager who thinks you can't get pregnant on the first date. A person like my mom who had a VCR but couldn't use it unless somebody else put the tape in for her ...


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Bee Haver's are good customers for the nuc and package suppliers.

A Beehaver becomes the competition(honey sales, bee sales and pollination) for the other Beehavers in the area.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Beeslave said:


> ....A Beehaver becomes the competition(honey sales, bee sales and pollination) for the other Beehavers in the area.


If they are successful in any of those areas, I think they would qualify for beekeeper-hood.

Wayne


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

It's all just another way to create classes within the beekeeping community. Put some down and bolster others up. I'm a beekeeper.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> It's all just another way to create classes within the beekeeping community. Put some down and bolster others up. I'm a beekeeper.


Yeah, you are probably right. But are people who have bees helpful to or good for the rest of us who "keep" bees? If they have them and don't take care of them, because they just want to have them around to pollinate the garden, aren't they going to be a source of diseases and pests?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> If they have them and don't take care of them, because they just want to have them around to pollinate the garden, aren't they going to be a source of diseases and pests?


Haven't bees been taking care of themselves for millions of years? Or at least since the Ark?


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## laurelmtnlover (May 29, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Yeah, you are probably right. But are people who have bees helpful to or good for the rest of us who "keep" bees? If they have them and don't take care of them, because they just want to have them around to pollinate the garden, aren't they going to be a source of diseases and pests?




Seems to me that someone who has a passionate interest and joy in beekeeping, and decides not to use chemical treatments, but monitored the bees and the health of the hive, would assist in developing disease resistant bees and thus contribulte to the world of beekeeping and the environment.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Haven't bees been taking care of themselves for millions of years?

Yes they did, but there was a time they were slowly introduced to things that would harm them(pests, diseases, etc.) and they kept up with that by the survivors breeding. Now the bees are exposed to too much too fast, going here, going there, and they can't keep up with it. So back to needing a beehaver for the bees and not just a bee haver.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

laurelmtnlover said:


> .. someone who has a passionate interest ..beekeeping, and decides not to use chemical treatments, but monitored the bees and the health of the hive, would assist ... disease resistant ..contribulte to the world of beekeeping and the environment.


This would be a form of a beehaver, a natural beehaver, not a bee haver.


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## hillhousehoney (Oct 7, 2008)

First of all, "beehaver" is not a word. You may use the long "a" sound as in gave or grave. It may also be the short sound as the word have. 
Beehaver is colloquial or something like that for what I believe is the word behaving. So a bee haver (short a) could be a person who has bees and does nothing with them. A bee haver (long a) may be someone who is cautious and careful about the health of the bees, as in behaving themselves.
It's all in the pronunciation I think.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

I worked as a bee inspector for several years. There was this guy who did not want his hives looked at all. "None of the state's business," he said. Well, I insisted, as NYS requires inspection of registered hives and his were registered. OK, he said, but don't open up the nucs.

So I go there, he has maybe 12 hives and that many nucs as well. Right away I start to find AFB. Of course, I checked the nucs, because he had made splits off the sick ones ! I ID'd ten or so. When I told him, he said he would burn them but "Only because I have to."

When the day came to burn them (we waited for a lab test), he yelled at me about opening up the nucs, after he said not to, and told me I didn't know what I was doing. I replied, that he was the one with AFB out of control. "What is your plan for AFB?" I asked. "Aren't you applying terramycin?"

He said "No" he didn't believe in using chemicals on bees, and "anyway that stuff doesn't work." To which I replied, you're right -- it doesn't work if you don't use it. That guy still had AFB the following year, was still blaming it on somebody else.

Just one of many stories like this that all the bee inspectors can tell.


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## laurelmtnlover (May 29, 2009)

Because someone decides not to use chemicals doesn't mean that that beekeeper would not be monitoring his or hives, and utilize the responsible interventions.


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## hillhousehoney (Oct 7, 2008)

I believe that this "beehaver" thing is intended to possibly mean what laurelmtnlover has offered.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

The term "bee haver" has been around a very long time. It refers to people who have bees but know very little about them. Some of these folks would like to learn more and some refuse to learn more. 

Another bee inspector story (true): Bee inspector finds hives with queen excluders nailed down! When asked, bee haver says: "I don't go down there"...

Does anybody have "Are you a bee-haver or a beekeeper?" by N Benoit - American Bee Journal (USA), 1975


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## MichelinMan (Feb 18, 2008)

OK. A beekeeper is an excellent bee haver. He cares about them. They're his girls. Shows concern and helps them when needed. Shows restraint and allows nature to run it's course when _that_ is needed. Is constantly trying to improve his art and technique for the bee's sake. Always takes the time to educate folks on the plight and greatness of bees. Promotes local honey. Takes care in his manipulations to not hurt or needlessly disturb his little ones. 

I am a beekeeper and love it.


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

A cheap source of relatively new bee equipment. OMTCW


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

my first impressions of what a bee haver is when I first started learning about beekeeping was that a bee haver is pretty much take and no give.

In other words, take honey, wax, etc, whatever they wanted to get from bees, but give nothing back to them in terms of care. Once the season was over, as far as a bee haver was concerned, if the bees died from lack of food, etc.. they would just get more bees again.

This is opposed to a beekeeper that works to help bees survive year round.

at least, that's what I always got from it.

Big Bear


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

bigbearomaha said:


> my first impressions of what a bee haver is when I first started learning about beekeeping was that a bee haver is pretty much take and no give.


To me, your interpretation is right on. Not just with the bees, but with the club and the entire program we have going on. It is all a volunteer and mentoring program with our classes and club. I am not a fan of the term or any classification of beekeepers, but the notion here has become one of interest for us as we teach, within a regional consortium, up to 300 students each winter and Spring. It has become more important for us to try and stress the time and attention bees need, that you can not throw a hive in the backyard like your Grandfather might have and expect it to thrive. It has also become part of our assessment of folks, trying to pick and chose who we are going to spend our time and energy on mentoring and teaching. We lose a lot of students... never see them again after the class and for some, it feels like a waste of our mentoring efforts. Not so much in the classroom but our efforts we put out outside of the classroom. I am not passing judgment, as beekeeping as a hobby is not for everyone, but it has become important for us to try and gauge student's level of committment before giving out so much of our volunteer time. For those that are with us, stick with it, and give back, even the smallest amount, it has been tremendously satisfying.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

"bee haver" and "beehaver" to me is the same thing. Some folks may define those words differently, but the true distinction is between beehaver/bee haver and beekeeper. George Imirie, in his Pink Pages, on the one hand rails against beehavers, and on the other encourages them to become beekeepers. Seems like everyone on this forum is working hard to be beekeepers. 

To my way of thinking, the Christian concept of stewardship applies here. We beekeepers are stewards of our honeybees. It is our responsibility to care for them, helping assure not only their survival, but that they thrive. Some of us seek to do this with the application of chemicals. Some of us seek to do this without chemicals. Same motive, different methods. Chemicals, or lack thereof, do not make a person a beekeeper. It's the attitude. The basic approach to the bees. 

I call myself a beekeeper, because that is what I try to be. But I'm not as good yet as I'm going to bee! 
Regards,
Steven


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

peterloringborst said:


> Haven't bees been taking care of themselves for millions of years? Or at least since the Ark?


Sure, but then we got involved.

I just kinda think that having bees and not knowing much about them is sorta like me owning a gun and not knowing much about how to use it or keep it from being misused. It's a responsibility of the owner.

But mostly I was just asking because someone else asked about "What is a Beekeeper?" or "What's a beek?" and wanted to cover the gammut.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

laurelmtnlover said:


> Seems to me that someone who has a passionate interest and joy in beekeeping, and decides not to use chemical treatments, but monitored the bees and the health of the hive, would assist in developing disease resistant bees and thus contribulte to the world of beekeeping and the environment.


Accidently perhaps. But they would just as likely, if not more likely, become a source of AFB. I can't tell you how many colonies that I inspected that were "abandoned" or neglected by the owner, which had AFB. Peter can probably tell you how many he found in this condition. I stopped counting.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

StevenG;501907
I call myself a beekeeper said:


> My plan too, Steve. Nicely said.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

StevenG said:


> We beekeepers are stewards of our honeybees. It is our responsibility to care for them, helping assure not only their survival, but that they thrive. Some of us seek to do this with the application of chemicals. Some of us seek to do this without chemicals. Same motive, different methods. Chemicals, or lack thereof, do not make a person a beekeeper. It's the attitude. The basic approach to the bees.


WELL SAID :applause:


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## Cape Beekeeper (Oct 9, 2009)

Were there only two bees on the Ark ?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No, two gums or skeps. So they would have enuf diversity of genetic variability. Or is it variation?


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

I have some bees in a hollow hickory tree down by the stream in the woods. I keep my bees in a box.


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## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

I have been lead to believe a Beehaver is someone who once wanted to become a beekeeper, but life, fading interest, time miscalculation, or laziness (etc) have left the bees out in the yard somewhere in a box with no one to care for or about them. When someone comes over to the house they ask "Do you have bees?" To which the Beehaver can say "Why yes, I have bees" but in fact, really has no idea the state or condition of said hives.

I think we all are guilty of misdemeanor Beehavin' every now and again!! That is unless you have *never* procrastinated to do _exactly_ what you think is right for the bees, _exactly_ when it needs to be done. 
I am only in my first year and I have let feeders run dry and other minor infractions, thus being guilty of minor Beehavery!
RKR


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## Buffalolick (Jan 26, 2010)

I read a beekeeping book by Richard E. Bonney where he described it as a beehaver just is someone who has bees, but a beekeeper is someone who cares for the bees they have. I think he meant it to be a cautionary tale and a bit of advice to those looking to get into beekeeping, that it requires more than just having some bees. I do think it is a bit of a put down to call someone a beehaver. While I'm not for being insulting, some folks DO earn the title. The bright side is they are a source for swarms and cheap equipment (if they haven't ruined it). The downside is the pest and disease issue and the overall bad rap they may give the rest of us. The entire question of behavers vs beekeepers reminds me of something I read in Bee Culture I think some months back about some one wanting to do away with "hobbyist" in reference to beekeepers. The gist being that anyone keeping bees these days puts forth an amount of effort beyond that required of a simpe hobby and the government would not fund studies pertaining to a hobby activity. Since beekeeping is so important, requires so much time, effort, etc. and needs government funded research hobbyist should be replaced with sideliner. It's an interesting arguement. Maybe it's the beehaver that's really the problem, not the hobbyist, but who outside of beekeeping circles knows the difference. I'm not big on government funding research and personally I think there's all types of beeks out there. But it is fun to wonder about the finer points. Gives us something to do while we wait for Spring. Excuse the long post, kinda thinking and typing...


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## laurelmtnlover (May 29, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Accidently perhaps. But they would just as likely, if not more likely, become a source of AFB. I can't tell you how many colonies that I inspected that were "abandoned" or neglected by the owner, which had AFB. Peter can probably tell you how many he found in this condition. I stopped counting.


Perhaps the owners bercome ill , or infirm, unable to get to the hives, or neglect for other reasons unrelated to an informed decision not to treat. As I stated before, a passionate and well read beekeeper would utilize the responsible intervention.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

laurelmtnlover said:


> Perhaps the owners bercome ill , or infirm, unable to get to the hives, or neglect for other reasons unrelated to an informed decision not to treat.


Correct. I don't have numbers any more than Squeak does, but I found a lot of hives where the owner was bedridden, incapacitated or deceased. Many of these hives were doing great on their own! 

One thing they had in common, however, was attitude. Most (not all) of these thriving ferals were defensive at best, and often downright vicious. 

This is coming from a beekeeper who always works barehanded, and treats bees with caution and respect. I could get through most hives without a sting, but I actually regard occasional stings as stimulating.


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## ACBEES (Mar 13, 2009)

My first encounter with the term "bee haver" was while reading George Imirie's Pink Pages. I think we all start out as bee havers. I think the level of commitment determines the length of the journey. The more we are willing to learn about bee keeping and the harder we are willing to work at it, the closer we get to becoming bee keepers. George's sincere goal was to turn as many bee havers into bee keepers before he died.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deleted as requested.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

sqkcrk, a friend doesn't mess with friends like that. Best advice I ever had was to ignore or don't even open anonymous mail. Consider the source - a coward. Practice Psalm 50:9a "I will accept no bull from your house..." 
Regards,
Steven


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Mark -

There is no need to post spam email here. It's not from the forum and there is no way to know given how you received it. Please remove it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Okay.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

I did not realize that that term ' bee haver' was an universal term within the beek community. I had heard that term 20 years ago from a freind of mine and we would use that to describe a person who just has bees but never works them.

When the mites became prevelent through the early 90's, a lot of 'beehavers' became owners of empty boxes and lots of used bee equipment came on the market from both hobbiest and otherwise. Even before the mite hit a few beeks were trying to sell while they could because they thought that it was going to be the end of the bees. We capitalized on one such deal.

Any beehavers that did survived the 90's did not survive the past decade. There are still beehavers out there but behind ever beehaver there is a darn good beekeeper. It reminds me of a lady who's hives I'm taking care of. She isn't learning how to keep bees so I am taking care of them and I don't mind doing so if the price is right. Other than that, she would be buying nucs off me every year.

Dear fellow beeks of the forum. I would like to relate to you a true story of an incident that happened in my youth.

It was the spring of 89' when I was finishing up grade 9 and my english teacher was a bee haver. I was keeping bees for almost 2 years and we had 30 at that point. My teacher, Mr. Schmeirbach, wanted to pay me to come look at his hives because they weren't leaving a super the way he thought they would so went and took a look.

The equipment was decreped and the bees were dilapitated. I opened the first hive and noticed the super was on upside down. He believed that that would intice the bees go below but because the super had brood and a queen, Obviously they would not leave it. I lifted that super and below was a super of unwired frames with the foundation floped out leaving a real nice mess. I did my best to put that hive back into shape. I went to the second hive and I could barely get the lid off and when I did there was a gallon jar embedded in a full super of natural built comb. That hive was a drone layer and I told him that it was going to die unless he took care of it right away. He payed me 20.00 and I was on my way.

Later on during summer vacation, He phoned me up while he was totally drunk right out of his tree and started accusing me of killing all his queens. The conversation didn't last long and I ended up hanging up on him with my opinion of certian teachers changed. I had him agian for english in grade 10, it's funny through the lack of efforts to pass i still seemed to pass english (I was always daydreaming about bees).

And so, from that time on, we refered to beekeeper who hadn't a clue of what he was doing as a 'Schmeirbacher' (something that my dad and I had going through the 90's) and there certianly was enough Schmeirbachers out there.

Now, you've probably heard of Jeff Foxsworthy 'you might be a red neck if...' but here it's 'you might be a schmeirbacher if...)
...If you think turning a super upside down will empty the supers of bees
...if you turn a hive upside down to prevent swarming
...if you spray insect repellant on yourself to prevent from getting stung
...if you lift a super from your hive and only the super is lift and the frames are left behind
...if you loaded 30 hives to move from one yard but arrived with only 20
...if you left a gallon jar feeder in the hive all summer and they build comb around it, swarmed, the queen turned into a drone layer and the hived died
...And the list goes on.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

A Beehaver is someone that buys bees don’t manage them at all, makes little or no effort to learn anything about bees. Then wonders why their bees always die and they never get any honey :scratch:


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## Mrs BeeKeeper (Jan 21, 2010)

chillard willard said:


> with my opinion of certian teachers changed. I had him agian for english in grade 10, it's funny through the lack of efforts to pass i still seemed to pass english (I was always daydreaming about bees).


Oh, my love.... it's a good thing you are an excellent beekeeper. 'Cause grammar is not your friend.


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## giant pumpkin peep (Mar 14, 2009)

I am in the 9th grade and find my self day dreaming sometimes in class about bee, and pumpkins.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

When I first ran across the term, I thought it was a cute way to refer to folks who manage their bees in a way that's anything but green, organic, or sustainable. 

I'm pretty sure that I first saw the term in Michael Schacker's, "a Spring Without Bees". I think I remember the term that way because I've associated it with another concept in that book, regenerative agriculture. I could have mis-remembered though.

It's all a matter of the context in which we remember "bee-haver" IMHO.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Many of these hives were doing great on their own! 

One thing they had in common, however, was attitude. Most (not all) of these thriving ferals were defensive at best, and often downright vicious. _

There is a feral hive living in a wall of an abandoned farmhouse on a nearby farm. I discovered it while picking raspberries last summer. I was watching the bees 6 or 8 feet from the entrance and they decided they didn't want me there. I got nailed 4 or 5 times before I got far enough for them to quit chasing me. The colony entrance is a hole in the old wooden siding about chest high, so I know they weren't defensive due to skunks. They just had a bad attitude.

I'm still debating if I should try doing a cutout of them, or just leave them be...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

At the end of Kim Flottum's article "Beekeeping for Beginners", in Back Home Magazine, he wrote, "Having bees is a good idea. You need to do some homework first, get the right equipment, find the right location, and then commit yourself to the responsibility of caring for the new livestock. But today thousands of other people enjoy having bees in their backyards. If you've read this far I just know you will, too."


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>...if you turn a hive upside down to prevent swarming

This was actually a common management technique in the late 1800's

"REVERSIBLE FRAMES.

"While the reversing of brood combs will produce no ill effects whatever, numerous are the advantages arising from such reversal; some of which aid us materially in accomplishing the desired results which are partially accomplished in the contracting system, above described.

"When using frames even no deeper than the standard Langstroth, you know how the bees (especially Italians) will persist in crowding the queen by storing honey that ought to go into the surplus department, along the upper edge of the brood combs, just under the top bar, and farther down in the upper corners, till by actual measurement we find that nearly one-fourth of each frame, and sometimes more, is occupied with honey.

"Now if we reverse the frame containing a comb so tilled, we place the honey in an unusual position; in a place usually occupied with brood, and when this is done in the breeding season, when the bees are not inclined to decrease their quantity of brood, this honey will be immediately removed to the surplus department, and soon the frame will be one solid sheet of brood, which is a glad sight to the bee-keeper whose experience has taught him the value of a compact brood nest, free from honey."

Success in Beeculture by James Heddon Pg 85



It seemed a pretty common subject:

"REVERSIBLE BROOD FRAMES.

"The engraving represents the reversible brood-frame made by Mr. James Heddon. Many devices have been presented to reverse the frames, but this is as good as any, where reversing is desired."

Bees and honey, or, The management of an apiary for pleasure and profit by Thomas G. Newman pg 44


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> > This was actually a common management technique in the late 1800's
> Success in Beeculture by James Heddon Pg 85


Now, I have no wish to quarrel with you, Michael, but a few references to James Heddon does not a common practice make. Mr. Heddon was an innovator no doubt, but to say his ideas were widely adopted is a bit of an exaggeration. He was in the same class as Aspinwall, IMHO. 

Insofar as turning queen cells upside down goes, that won't stop a hive from swarming! Once queen cells are mature, they will hatch regardless of the direction


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> James Heddon, of Dowagiac, Mich., was one of the most brilliant lights in all beedom. Sometimes erratic, he often surprised us by his genius. He certainly was a man of many parts and varied ability.
> 
> At one time he had between 700 and 800 colonies of bees, and he made them pay, as he did every thing he undertook. He was not a man to follow in the beaten tracks of others, and we therefore find him striking out into new fields in practical apiculture. In short, he was original if he was anything. This very independence of action often led him to differ radically with his brother bee-keepers in regard to methods and appliances.
> 
> ...


 E R Root 1912


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, but a few references to James Heddon does not a common practice make. 

Perhaps, but the 1886 ABJs I have at home are full of discussions on the practice and how to accomplish it. There was not one person who said it was a bad idea just a lot discussion who invented it (many thought Heddon did not) and how best to accomplish it. So I would have to say it was a common enough practice in 1886. I have read many a book from the era with a mention of the practice.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> > There was not one person who said it was a bad idea



Reversible Frames BY G. M. DOOLITTLE.

A CORRESPONDENT writes: 
"I have been reading up some old bee-literature, and in it I find quite a little about reversible frames. Are they something of value ? If so, I shall desire to make some before the swarming season opens. Please tell us something about them in the American Bee Journal." 

Answer.
Reversible frames were one of the disputed questions of the past, they having quite an extended airing some 12 to 15 years ago. Very many of our most prominent bee-keepers gave them a very thoro trial, but so far as I know there is not an apiarist of any prominence using them to-day [1900]; or, if any such are using them, they do not consider them of enough value to say anything about them in bee-literature now. 

At first sight this theory looks very nice, but when it was put into practice it was found the bees did not "think" as did the theorist, and colonies so workt accumulated no more in the sections than did others that were let alone, while at the end of the season the colonies let alone showed a decided advantage, inasmuch as they had honey to winter on, with little or no honey in those whose frames had been reverst several times. 

The claim was also made that the reversing of the frames would do away with swarming, as the queens occupying the reverst queen-cells all die. Many queens in the embryo form would thus die ; but as swarms were sure to issue from queens not killed by reversing, or by the swarms coming out without any capt queen-cells, or little if any preparation along the line of queen-cells, the reversing of frames for this purpose proved fully as fallacious as for section-honey. 

The only advantage I could ever discover by reversing frames was that, by thus doing, the combs would be built as perfectly to the bottom-bar of the frames as to the top-bar, so that the trouble of ridding the frames of bees on account of their hiding in the space between the bottom-bar and the comb was obviated. While this was some gain, yet I never found the gain here to be sufficient to pay for the trouble and cost of reversible frames.

AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL. April 12 1900


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Yes, that was in 1900. The literature I was reading, and referring to, were the entire 1886 ABJs. Certainly the idea did not catch on. But I think you proved what I said:

"I have been reading up some old bee-literature, and in it I find quite a little about reversible frames."

My point exactly.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

ok, is this another case of quoting from a source with no actual commentary from you...so that you can later state: "i expressed no opinion"?

clearly, peter, you are attempting to show that doolittle was a person who "said it was a bad idea" to reverse frames.

but

what michael said was that in :


> "...the 1886 ABJs I have at home are full of discussions on the practice and how to accomplish it. There was not one person who said it was a bad idea just a lot discussion who invented it..."


to support his claim that:


> This was actually a common management technique in the late 1800's


.

so, your cites from 1900 and 1912 say that:


> they having quite an extended airing some 12 to 15 years ago.


 (you know....like in the late 1800's...just like michael said)

and



> When reversible frames were the fad in 1884...


but yes, we know that you actually made no claims, and have no opinion

...oh wait, you did:


> ...but a few references to James Heddon does not a common practice make. Mr. Heddon was an innovator no doubt, but to say his ideas were widely adopted is a bit of an exaggeration.


more of the same.....

deknow


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Not to belabor the point but


> " There was not one person who said it was a bad idea".


This is simply untrue. How else could there have been a debate, if everyone agreed? Finally, it was Doolittle himself who reports that it _was_ a bad idea!


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

deleted


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

peter,

michael states (paraphrased) that "x was common in the late 1800's, and with all the discussion in the journals at the time, no one thought it was a bad idea"

...you begin by challenging his statement (no problem there), and then procede to post citations from the early 1900's that show that AFTER THE FACT some folks are critical of the idea, while at the same time, both quotes you supply support what michael said.....all the while, you ignore the fact that the statements you quote are not contemporary to the timeframe that michael is referring to.

as far as pointing out that you use quotations (often out of context) to make a point that you later claim you never made, anyone that has been reading your postings here the last couple of weeks understands what i am referring to.



> Over the years of contributing to various discussion groups I have probably presented each and every one of the opinions. My personal views are kept closer to the vest.


i can only speak for myself here....my purpose for participating here and in other forums and lists is to learn. imho, this is best done when people say what they mean, and mean what they say....that way we get to the point, and highlight any areas of disagreement for investigation and discussion.

in these discussions over the last couple of weeks, you have made absolute claims that you don't believe (i can't tell if it's to confuse the issues intentionally, that you have a hard time distilling what you are thinking into words, or if you are fishing for others to provide their research for your own curiosity), and you have provided out of context quotes that are clearly designed to support a particular position that you later claim you don't support.

as far as i'm concerned (i'm not a moderator), you are welcome to conduct yourself however you see fit....but when you are being obtuse and/or ridiculous, expect to be called on it.

deknow


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> i can only speak for myself here....my purpose for participating here and in other forums and lists is to learn.


Dean
Surely you don't mean to suggest that I personally am somehow preventing you from learning 



> i can't tell if it's to confuse the issues intentionally, that you have a hard time distilling what you are thinking into words, or if you are fishing for others to provide their research for your own curiosity


By all means, please let us know when you figure that one out !


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

peterloringborst said:


> Dean
> Surely you don't mean to suggest that I personally am somehow preventing you from learning


....once again, you make my point exactly. you used my quote out of context in an attempt to give it a meaning that is simply not there.



> imho, this is best done when people say what they mean, and mean what they say....that way we get to the point, and highlight any areas of disagreement for investigation and discussion.





> By all means, please let us know when you figure that one out !


oh, i think it's a little of both. ...but, for the record, this method of fishing may get you some information you seek in the short term, but it's tiresome (at best).

it's a bit like a homeless alcoholic begging for money to "buy a sandwich". they may look hungry and honest early in the morning, and they may garner quite a bit of sympathy (and spare change)....but by late afternoon, they are drunk, and the "i don't drink, i just want to buy a sandwich" pitch doesn't work as well.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

deleted...double post


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> for the record, this method of fishing may get you some information you seek in the short term, but it's tiresome (at best). it's a bit like a homeless alcoholic begging for money to "buy a sandwich".


Wow, Dean!

You are now comparing me (me) to a homeless alcoholic! I should be offended by that, as I do own my own home ...


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

peterloringborst said:


> Wow, Dean!
> 
> You are now comparing me (me) to a homeless alcoholic! I should be offended by that, as I do own my own home ...


no, i am comparing a dishonest style of discussion (one in which, for the purpose of provoking other people to talk and present evidence, you say and imply things you don't mean and/or believe) with a dishonest style that a homeless alcoholic might use to obtain money for booze.


deknow


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

deleted


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

uhhhh, peter?

how did "whatever, works for me" become "deleted"?

it does show that you are aware of the dishonest nature of your posts here...and i expect that it 'doesn't work for you' very well.

deknow


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>" There was not one person who said it was a bad idea". 

I will try to be perfectly clear. In my reading of the 1886 ABJ's (the context I was speaking of) I did not encounter one discussion of it being a bad idea, but many on how to go about it and many on whether it was already in common practice before Heddon patented it. I'm quite certain many people between then and now have decided it was not worth doing as no one I know of is doing it now. And someone probably published that. But the literature of that era was full of discussions by persons using that technique. I have not read everything written from that era and make no claims that someone might not find someone even from 1886 who didn't disagree with it. That also is not my point.

The initial point was that this person who was flipping the box over to get the bees to leave was not doing something he totally made up but something often written about in bee journals and books. He did not arrive at it in a vacuum.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Turning an AFB colony upside down as an AFB treatment option was something I heard about about 20 years ago. It wasn't advocated as something I should do. I was just told that it can be effective. Supposedly the bees rework thye comb so it is oriented correctly and in doing so the scale is removed.

Don't any of you beehavers try this now. Ya hear?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> This was actually a common management technique in the late 1800's


I just said that I doubted that it was common, then or ever. Sorry if I miffed you, not my intention.


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## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

Just now reading this thread. Decided to because it was 4 pages long. I was surprised it took as long as it did to mention Imerie. But I was even more surprised and saddened at the really downward spiral this thread took on. Having a strong ego is not good beehavoir :no: for learning and discussion.

Having said that, I am not sure if the question asked was answered or convoluted down to nothing. 

But it the moment of love on this Valentines evening I post the following which is a portion of George Imerie's Pink Papers:

George's Pink Pages 
July 1999

*CAN YOU THINK LIKE A BEE?*​ 
Maybe I should "rattle" your brain by asking you: "Can a bee really THINK”? When you HARVEST honey, do the bees interpret that action as robbing them of something they have collected and made? Does a bee know it is going to DIE if it stings you? If a bee stings you, was that bee ANGRY with you? If a bee emerges from its birth cell on a warm May 15th and lives its short life of just 6 weeks, it is dead before July 4th; hence WHAT DOES IT KNOW ABOUT THE COLD OF WINTER, or why is it "busy as a bee" nectar collecting for colony survival? WHO or WHAT directs a bee to perform a certain task; e.g., cleaning a cell, comb building, feeding larva, or guarding the hive entrance? Which bees go off with a swarm and which adult bees stay behind? Who picks out the location of the new home for the swarm? Who supervises worker cell comb building, so that regardless of whether the bees are Italians, Carniolans, Buckfast, or even Uncle Charlie's, there are always 55.3 cells per square inch; and they do this without a set of plans or a ruler. Have YOU thought about these things during the time of your experience with bees?

*When you "can THINK like a bee", you are beginning to understand the complexities of bee behavior which I firmly believe is the "dividing line" between being thought of as a beeHAVER or a beeKEEPER.* Perhaps the beeHAVER's bees sometimes might produce some surplus honey, or
indeed, even a record crop; however, only the beeKEEPER will ever experience the many diverse
JOYS OF BEEKEEPING.

*HOW does a bee think?* I assure you that a bee does NOT think like a human. Much of our human thinking processes are initiated and deeply used as a result of our human senses of sight and hearing, whereas our sense of smell does not seem very important to us. *In complete contrast to the important senses of the human is the fact that a bee has no sense of hearing and has relatively poor eyesight even with its five eyes; but its sense of smell, olfactory nerves, is the most highly developed sense of a honey bee. A bee uses its sense of odor to determine if another bee is her hive mate or a stranger, the odor of a flower guides a bee to the nectar of the flower, a "lost" colony member is guided home by other bees fanning the odor of their Nassanoff gland towards their lost sisters or brothers, the odor of bee venom (as in banana oil), primarily iso-pentyl acetate is the well known "sting alarm" of the bee, and now we use the chemical, geraniol, as an artificial pheromone for attracting swarms.*

Unfortunately, we humans are inherently biased; and hence we tend to ascribe human attributes to bees. We believe that bees think as we think, have an awareness of events or other happenings around their home or their "work place" as they gather nectar or pollen, that they can plan ahead (like their gathering of nectar in May to make winter food), or that they can easily solve how to return to a hive after leaving via a cone shaped escape device. If you believe that a bee will do all those things that we humans would do under the same circumstances, that is ANTHROPOMORPHISM at its best! Bees have brains designed to direct the bee to best do the jobs that nature intended bees to do, and that does not require the human brain. Further, the deviations inherent in the human brain cause 10 people to use 10 different procedures to get to the same point, whereas, the thinking of a 24 day old worker bee for a given situation is identical for all other 24 day old worker bees confronting the same situation. Honey bees are social insects who live for the good of the colony without individualistic concern for themselves; and their actions are governed by polyethism, i.e., perform tasks based on their age since their day of emergence.



Is today's bee any different than the honeybee of biblical time when Moses spoke of a certain area as "the land of milk and honey"? I do not know of any changes in man, horses, birds, or other animals, so there is good reason to think that the honey bee of today is no different than that which was in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. We humans, armed with our ability to think, have made much progress in our style of living, because we have used our thinking ability to invent things, even the WHEEL. However, I am sure that there are no basic differences between Adam and Eve, Mark Anthony and Cleopatra, and Bill and Hillary Clinton. Accepting this premise, then we must realize that our only course of becoming a good beekeeper is to LEARN TO THINK LIKE A BEE, or study what researchers call "BEE BEHAVIOR".


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Some bee 'havers' will not make an effort to learn more about keeping their bees. Their bees will more likely die off and those people will probably give up on keeping bees. Bye bye! 

Other bee 'havers' will slowly learn more and more about their bees and will eventually become good beekeepers. Their hives will boost local honeybee populations in the surrounding locations wherever they are, even in cities.

I think it's _great_ that more and more beginners are wanting to keep bees these days. They will help eliminate the fear and mystery the general public now has about beekeeping. Beekeeping has been viewed far too long as an eccentric, complex, even dangerous undertaking that can only be done by experts and professionals. Let beekeeping become as normal and accepted as gardening.


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Omie, I'm with you on that.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

A friend writes:



> On bees' hearing, Peter Kevan in Bees, Biology and Management, says that bees can hear airborne vibrations at low frequencies through the auditory sense organs on the antennae, the Johnson's organ.
> 
> See Tsujiuch, S et al "Dynamic Range Compression in the Honey Bee Auditory System toward Waggle Dance Sounds" at
> 
> www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1794319.


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## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

Okay, this is my last post. What does bee hearing have to do with the title subject. I can only deduct from the previous reply that an issue is taken with 1, count it 1, line of a post that contains part of information given by Dr. Imiere on "Thinking like a bee".

Dr. Imiere was/is a very respected master beek. He died in 2004 or 2005. His pink paper was written in the late 90's.

Your post is an article which was published in: 

*Received December 18, 2006; Accepted January 30, 2007.*

Mr. Borst, I am sure you have forgotten more than I know about bees and beekeeping. But tact must have been left out of your education at home and school. Will not even touch the religion aspect as I know very little about the teachings of Budda.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Well, I didn't think bees could hear either, until yesterday when a friend of mine brought me up to speed on it. I thought some people might find that interesting. 

In no way did I mean to cast a dim view on George. In fact, he and Roger Morse were a couple of my favorite bee guys.

As a matter of fact, I posted an homage to him a couple of days ago:



> George Wady Imirie Jr., 84, a master beekeeper who tirelessly promoted the value of bees and beehives, died of congestive heart failure Sept. 6, 2007.
> 
> "He definitely was someone who didn't feel it necessary to tolerate any ignorance around him," said Marc Hoffman, a member of the Montgomery County Beekeepers Association, which Mr. Imirie founded. "He would interrupt someone to ask, 'How many hours is it before the larva emerges from the egg?' and you'd better know the answer."
> 
> But he also shared his knowledge, writing an opinionated and blunt newsletter called the "Pink Pages," which addressed how to prevent swarming, how to prepare in fall so bees would overwinter well and how to deal with pests. The newsletter was read by beekeepers around the world. He coined a phrase now popular in bee circles, "Be a bee-keeper, not a bee-haver"


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

This thread seems like boys bashing their heads against each other over and over.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

.....


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## thomas894 (Feb 12, 2010)

the only conclusion i can come up w/ after reading this thread is that bees are suffering from too much humanity. perhaps we should all give it up for awhile and let them alone. ya, that's gonna happen.

thomas


"we could have saved the earth, but we were too **** cheap."
K. Vonnegut Jr.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

thomas894 said:


> the only conclusion i can come up w/ after reading this thread is that bees are suffering from too much humanity. perhaps we should all give it up for awhile and let them alone. ya, that's gonna happen.
> 
> thomas


Thomas, there is a school of thought that (at least at one time, and may still be the case) was known as "let alone beekeeping." The idea was/is that the beek does the bare minimum to manage the bees, trusting that the bees know best what they need. Instead of digging into the hives on a regular basis, practitioners of this art focus on watching the landing board, and learning from observation. Of course regular intrusions are made into the hive, but not nearly as often as you'd think. Especially leaving the brood nest alone. Swarm prevention management can still be done successfully with this method. 

I suspect the folks who do not use chemical treatments of any kind tend toward the "Let alone" method. And possibly those who use foundationless frames as well. Then again, perhaps I'm wrong. :lookout:

But the basic idea as espoused quite some time ago (1970's? or earlier?) was that you minimized intrusion into the hive. The bees can take care of themselves with minimum management.
Regards,
Steven


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## thomas894 (Feb 12, 2010)

Thanks for the insightful and informative responce. I am aware of some of this history mentioned but was really just day-dreaming, actually thinking of a time far, far in the future. My current personal goal is to "have" bees residing on this land that the State of Wisconsin claims I own (just because I paid off a debt to a bank) that remain as healthy and productive as possible in my own "immediate" area (i can control little else, if that) and I'm convinced of late that the less I intrude on their lives the better. My first mentors were horrible, only in hindesite. But as they say, with age comes.......There have been many people over the eons who've clearly felt this way, not just about honeybees but generally (here I go), about humanities never ending desires at the expence of life itself. Oh boy. Thanks again. I think this thread has somehow recovered from the mess it was becoming. I didn't think I'd miss such discussion. Thank you my brother and sisters of the bees!!!!

thomas


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

thomas894 said:


> My current personal goal is to "have" bees residing on this land that the State of Wisconsin claims I own (just because I paid off a debt to a bank) that remain as healthy and productive as possible in my own "immediate" area (i can control little else, if that) and I'm convinced of late that the less I intrude on their lives the better.


I think that's a perfectly reasonable and good goal to have if you are not trying to make money or earn a living by selling hive products. (and I certainly am not myself). It's not like you are trying to tell others how they should keep their own bees, either. You just want to do your own thing and have a small part in doing something good for bees and the planet.

It's similar to my own goal in having 3 or 4 hives on my little 1/3 acre. I just want to be able to get 100 or 200 lbs of honey for our own use and to barter with friends for other goods that they produce. Other than that, i just want my bees to be healthy and enjoy pollinating my vegetables and berry bushes. There are feral hives around here that have survived perfectly well for many years in one location, completely untended by beekeepers. Obviously those bees can survive without treatments and man made manipulations.

Considerate hobby beekeepers in large numbers can set a good example and help raise public appreciation for honeybees and their plight.


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## thomas894 (Feb 12, 2010)

Man, I used to feel the same way. But the honey hasn't been that important to me for awhile now. I keep making/seeing the comparsin; who's gonna cut down the last tree, and only then deside to looke behind him, its always a him. Sorry, no offence intended.

"we could have saved the earth but we were to **** cheap."
K. V. Jr.

thanks again...(doubting)thomas


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

I read somewhere that the a beekeeper is one who control his bees as best as he can. 
A bee haver is one who lets his bees control him by spraying his neighbours with swarm 
after swarm.

I laughed when I read that spraying thing.  :lpf:


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I am new to all this. Years ago I knew pretty well how to care for bees. many years ago actually. Then it did not take a lot of information. Now I am reading a lot about what you need to know about bees to "Keep" them rather than just have them. IT used to be you captured a swarm and where off and running. if you wanted more hives you captured another swarm usually from your own hive. My great grandfather managed his bees in this way his entire life. then came the Africanized bee scare. After that it all went to hell. What happened? replacing queens every year is what I see. Now it seems most Bee Keepers replace there entire hive every hear. As of this moment I see the Bee Keeper is harming the Bee Haver rather than the other way around.
At this moment I am hoping to capture local bees. But if every other possessor of bees in the county has purchased bees, will not my colony become at least half "inbreed" packaged bees after the first replacement of the queen? Since I just added "Inbreed" to the conversation I will explain. I chose that word to express the wide variety of problems that buying packaged bees or nucs could possibly be introducing. Not that I am claiming true inbreeding problems in the bees. I just thought it a handy word to use to roll the whole mess into one.
Most likely any swarm I manage to capture will be the product of packaged bees. Bad start to begin with.
I think it is a good question though. who is really harming the bees. the person that shoves them out back to live or die by their own devices or the person that is hands on every week? Replacing failing bees every spring with more failing bees.
Not arguing here just putting forth a new thread of thought on Bee Having vs Bee Keeping.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> As of this moment I see the Bee Keeper is harming the Bee Haver rather than the other way around...
> who is really harming the bees. the person that shoves them out back to live or die by their own devices or the person that is hands on every week? Replacing failing bees every spring with more failing bees.
> Not arguing here just putting forth a new thread of thought on Bee Having vs Bee Keeping.


ut oh.:no:

I chose to let bees be bees and not be their doctor. I am probably not a beekeeper or a behaver but more of a bee provider that provides a home for natures fascinating creatures. I have tried to learn what they need and want and will continue to do so. According to posts on this forum the bees have produced more than I and they need and have been patient with me doing dumb things. Today I can't believe I resisted my wife buying our first hive.

Mark, you started this thread with a paranoia about other people's tainted bees infecting your hives. So why is it that your bees unwillingly cover thousands of miles of bad road year after year? Wouldn't you want to keep them home where you could create a nice chemical barrier from the adjacent elements? Is your friend in New Hartford and Sauquoit paranoid too? Give him my coordinates so he can protect his hives too.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I can't get DanielY's last post out of my mind. To quote, "who is really harming the bees. the person that shoves them out back to live or die by their own devices or the person that is hands on every week? Replacing failing bees every spring with more failing bees."

As an analogy, I present my large feral hog population. As a boy, some 60 years ago, I was often dispatched to our neighbour's farm to assist an older man with his tame pigs. Our neighbour vaccinated his pigs, took great care of them at birth, fed them mineral supplement and yada, yada, .... He was always concerned about the pigs getting too hot and constantly cautioned me to be easy with the pigs. Moving the clock forward to this date, my ranch is being over run with feral pigs. I have trapped 14 in the last 20 days. They obviously do not have any care. They have big litters and seem to be disease proof. I realize a pig is different than an insect, but still, they seem to do their best when left alone.


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## Bsupplier (Dec 23, 2008)

This article was written by Ralph Ziegler a contributing writer to Modern Beekeeping. This excerpt appeared in the October 1952 edition of Modern Beekeeping.
As the honey gathering season draws reluctantly to a close, we are inclined to wonder how many of those who started with bees last spring are still beginners and how many are real beekeepers. All have no doubt made mistakes. Those who have blamed themselves for their errors, taking steps to correct them and prevent their happening again are real beekeepers, while those who blame the bees, the weather, the package bee shipper, the equipment manufacturers and everything else in sight are still just beginners.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Mark, you started this thread with a paranoia about other people's tainted bees infecting your hives.


I did? Show me. All I did to start this Thread was to type in the title and write the first Post, "That's the question." It's amazing how someone can read between the lines when there is only one line.

I am not afraid of anything you and your one hive may do. I take care of my own and don't much concern myself w/ what others do.

And, as far as my friend in Sauquoit, he doesn't waste any time being scared by much of anything.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I am glad I sat most of this thread out. While beehavers were more common in years past. They are becoming a endangered species. With the onslaught of all the problems that have beset the beekeeping industry in the past 25 years, most beekeepers now practice "No Till" management. You do not "Know Till" you get out into the beeyard how many colonies you have that are productive. And what you have to do to keep those colonies strong and disease free. With all the pestilence in the beekeeping industry numbers have a way of fluctuating.TED


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> .....


no fair, your making it very hard to read between the lines??


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## 2moos (Sep 21, 2011)

i have been reading the comments on what a bee haver is i think we all where at one time ya gotta start somewhere and the beginng is better then the middle because you will miss to much. bees are the coolest. goodluck to all and stay sticky.:thumbsup:


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Daniel Y said:


> IT used to be you captured a swarm and where off and running. if you wanted more hives you captured another swarm usually from your own hive. My great grandfather managed his bees in this way his entire life.
> 
> who is really harming the bees. the person that shoves them out back to live or die by their own devices or the person that is hands on every week? Replacing failing bees every spring with more failing bees.


Well Daniel, you answered the question perfectly. A bee haver has bees in the backyard and does nothing but capture swarms to fill the dead hives. That kind of beekeeping was practiced by all our great grandfathers and before. To me that's skep beekeeping. And when they can't catch swarms...which are few andf far between in my area...they buy packages of failing bees to replace their failing bees. 

A beekeeper works with their bees, raising good stocks, suitable to their area. Just because a beekeeper actually manages his/her bees, it doesn't mean that they are working against the bees or against nature. It doesn't mean they are harming the bees. If you think so come have a look at my bees....managed, selected, grown, coddled and loved by me, a bee-keeper. 

I for one refuse to shove my bees out back and allow them to live or die by their own devices. You may if you like. If you do I have a suggestion. Buy skeps...they're cheaper...and cute.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I chose to let bees be bees and not be their doctor.


Perhaps doctor is the wrong word? I choose to be their "partner".


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Michael. Don't assume my observations indicate what I do. Today you have to do what is necessary to keep the bees. Things have changed a lot since my great grandfathers day. Keep in mind he was probably getting his first hives when Doctor Doolittle was rearing queens. You also assume his bees died. They did not. Last time I saw them they where doing very well after ten years or so of no management at all. He went blind at about age 90 and was moved off his farm. Shortly before he died at age 100 we went to visit his farm. The hives where there and full of bees.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> I take care of my own and don't much concern myself w/ what others do.





> But are people who have bees helpful to or good for the rest of us who "keep" bees? If they have them and don't take care of them, because they just want to have them around to pollinate the garden, aren't they going to be a source of diseases and pests?


It is not hard to read between your lines. This was your third post on this topic. And your second one was a one liner too, just warming up to your third.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh, I see. Yes, I wrote that. I see what you are refering to. It would make things easier if you wouldn't remove the link to the source of what you quote.

Sometimes I pose questions. Doing so doesn't mean I am SCARED. On the other hand, knowing that higher percentage of cases of AFB reside in colonies in Apiaries owned by beekeepers w/ smaller numbers of bees indicates to me that people w/ fewer hives need more education. There is more to beekeeping than just having bees in a box in the back yard.


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## beeG (Jun 18, 2011)

lazy shooter said:


> As an analogy, I present my large feral hog population. As a boy, some 60 years ago, I was often dispatched to our neighbour's farm to assist an older man with his tame pigs. Our neighbour vaccinated his pigs, took great care of them at birth, fed them mineral supplement and yada, yada, .... He was always concerned about the pigs getting too hot and constantly cautioned me to be easy with the pigs. Moving the clock forward to this date, my ranch is being over run with feral pigs. I have trapped 14 in the last 20 days. They obviously do not have any care. They have big litters and seem to be disease proof. I realize a pig is different than an insect, but still, they seem to do their best when left alone.


This is not a fair analogy. Due to the fact pigs,hogs what ever you want to call them physically change when they go feral. Thier heads will even change. They grow harsh hair, thier snouts get longer, they grow tusks. They change physically from what we keep as domestics. And this is not over generations either. If they survive they morph within months 
http://blog.mlive.com/flintjournal/outdoors/2007/11/domestic_pigs_quickly_revert_t.html

I am not aware of any other animal or insect that does this.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Oh, I see. Yes, I wrote that. I see what you are refering to. It would make things easier if you wouldn't remove the link to the source of what you quote.


This forum doesn't make it easy to quote a post and then go back several pages to quote another post. So I use cut and paste to a word processor. I don't think anybody will have an issue determining where the quote was taken from.
I would like to see the numbers on your claim broken down on how the AFB infection occurred. For instance 1. Were these hives abandoned for some reason? 2. Did the infection come from some outfit dumping their problem off on the back yard beek who doesn't know any better? 3. Is it a real problem in NYS if the state has decided that the inspection program wasn't worth funding? 4. Why is it a problem in other states that do fund an inspection program?

As long as we are posing questions...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, why NYS Dept. of Ag&Mkts doesn't have enuf full time Apiary Inspectors to cover the State has many reasons. Some of which are, there never has been enuf Inspectors to cover the whole State in one year. There just aren't enuf qualified persons available, even if the budget was there.

Then there is the reason that NYS Beekeepers generally were not supportive of Apiary Inspection because it didn't serve beekeepers the way they wanted to be served.

Then there is also State Budget Cuts. Ag&Mkts decided that Apiary Inspection was a good place to save 1/4 million dollars, since beekeepers weren't supportive anyway.

The statistics which I refered to are statistics gathered for a number of years by NYS Apiary Inspection. I don't have the actual report, issued by Plant Industry Director Robert J. Mungari, retired. The report of annual Inspection results showed the majority of AFB occured in yards of smaller numbers owned by beekeepers w/ smaller numbers of colonies. Not abandoned colonies, necassarily. Neglected, perhaps.

One has to know how AFB is transfered and new infections caused. Primarily this is a self inflicted problem. One either buys it or infects ones own colonies thru splitting infected colonies and putting extracted supers from infected colonies on previously uninfected colonies.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> One has to know how AFB is transfered and new infections caused. Primarily this is a self inflicted problem. One either buys it or infects ones own colonies thru splitting infected colonies and putting extracted supers from infected colonies on previously uninfected colonies.


So the back yard beekeeper that buys or builds brand new equipment is of little risk except when he buys his bees. You would hope that if the state was going to inspect anything it would be the bee suppliers. That would nip it in the bud. I can see where someone selling bees would not support state inspectors. It could really bite couldn't it?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> That would nip it in the bud. I can see where someone selling bees would not support state inspectors. It could really bite couldn't it?


Not necassarily. See the AFB Thread.

Also, someone selling bees would benefit from Inspection, since selling bees is what makes them their income, keeping a clean operation is necassary and having an outside concern verify their status would be welcome.

Also, since smaller noncommercial beekeeping operations is where disease predominantely resides, those bees should get the majority of the attention. But, education is the problem. Lack of it actually. If Apiary Inspection had more of an educational aspect to it, it would have been supported better in NY.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I guess I am closer to a bee-haver than a bee-keeper. 3 years, started with 1 hive (nuc) and now have 3. I check them once or twice in the spring. Extract honey in the late summer. Feed a lot in the fall. Maybe 4 light inspections all year. I only get into the bottom brood chambers once during the spring to break up the brood nest. I get swarms (maybe one per year, sometimes none) and usually catch them. 

Hives are as healthy as can be. Never once have I seen a mite or a hive beetle, dont even know what they look like. I saw 1 **** roach (large hive beetle?







) and 2 wax worms once.

I try to bother them as little as possible and it work fine for me.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

The "Bull of the Woods", an old beekeeper, was known to proclaim that the majority of AFB came from hobbiest hives developed AFB, and not recognized by the "haver" as what it was, died as a result. The equipment was not sterilized, and was left in the field to be robbed out by other bees.

Actually, there is a good chance that a person receiving a package with AFB spores in the bees, after hiving the bees, would not have a hive with AFB. The spores can pass through the bee while it is in the package, and be eliminated(read pooped out) before the package is hived.
This principle is the basis of non-antibiotic treatment of AFB.

With all lack of humility, some of us do not have to start out knowing nothing. Most of what we know was picked up at the dinner table.

Crazy Roland, 5th gen. beekeeper.


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