# Buying royal jelly for grafting



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I have never bought royal jelly for grafting. I see in Bee Culture that you can buy R.J. in quantity from Glory Bee foods.

Is there any pitfalls or negative impact from using this type of royal jelly?

How is it best stored, used, used straight/mixed, etc?

I have had good success with non royal jelly substances, but wonder if this is worth the money and will it make a difference in grafting takes?

Please P.M. with any comments if you want to keep it off the general board.

Thank you.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I don't see the point. I have good success w/out priming the cells. Maybe its a matter of preference. I don't do it. Too much will drown the larvae or so I've read.

I try to get a decent amount of RJ with the larvae when I graft. I think part of the key is to graft carefully BUT quickly. Then before the RJ/larvae has a chance to dry out put it into the starter or into a humid warm environment.

Last year I grafted outside on a fairly warm day and was doing multiple cell bars. I made the mistake of not keeping the first ones in a protective environment and they had significantly dried before I got them into the starters and had to regraft them. It can happen quickly. 

My personal, unprofessional opinion is its unecessary to use additional RJ if the grafting process is handled correctly.

I'm sure others will disagree.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

bjorn: What do you prime with?

I havent primed with anything this last season but the season before, I would swab with water and a swab stick.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

BjornBee said:


> I have never bought royal jelly for grafting. I see in Bee Culture that you can buy R.J. in quantity from Glory Bee foods.
> 
> Is there any pitfalls or negative impact from using this type of royal jelly?


I don't know, but after seeing the PBS special last week, it may be from China! Do you know the source?

- Barry


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Chef and Dan,
I usually use some thinned honey and use about 1/4 of a normal drop of water. I'll sometimes go back with a q-tip and even out the drop so its not one big drop/bubble of water (cut down on drownings)

Other times, there seems to be enough substance with the larvae already in good fed/primed hives in which the larvae are being grafted from.

I sometimes have a graft(take) of 39 out of 40 and at other times I have 5 out of 40. I have confidence in my grafting ability. But I am trying to eliminate any variables that may be coming into play.

Do I take too much time? Too hot? Something else? not sure.

But since I make up my grafting solution every time fresh, it certainly may be playing a factor, as it has to be different from time to time.

I just don't know if royal jelly would smooth out some of the wild differences from one graft to another.

I'm certainly looking at everything else also. This just being the one I'm thinking about now.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Barry said:


> I don't know, but after seeing the PBS special last week, it may be from China! Do you know the source?
> 
> - Barry


I did not ask Glory Bee on the phone yesterday in asking questions. But their ad says some sort of certificate of analysis is included. Not sure if that would say anything or not. I guess I'll ask.

Anyone else get any from gloryBee?


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## Jonathan Hofer (Aug 10, 2005)

Might be some on the forum that don't like this: 


When I graft, I first pick up a bit of jelly from more mature cells and put it into the cell cups. Then I graft the larvae into the cells.


JH


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

BjornBee said:


> I usually use some thinned honey and use about 1/4 of a normal drop of water.


I guess I've just always worried about adding anything that may detract from the success. Since I don't know the composition and can't replicate the RJ already in the cell with the larvae I just tried to use what was available. 

I've been afraid to add honey or anything else to the mix as I don't know what potential yeasts or diseases or whatever else may be present and may be to the detriment of the larvae and/or eventual queen. To me it was just another possible introduction point for something harmful. 

I guess I just look at all the possible introduction points for problems or adding something negative to the mix.... grafting tool, cell cup, the environment (too hot, dry etc). Then to add something else to the mix like honey, water, RJ from a different source, etc.. .just increases the chance for failure or at least inferiority in my opinion.

Probably unfounded but still my concern.


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## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Royal jelly from Communist China has been tested positive for the virus, IAPV. Produce your own royal jelly. You can add a little water to the royal jelly to lessen the viscosity of the royal jelly. (Distilled water does not contain any bacteria.) Adding water to the royal jelly will make it easier to put the royal jelly into the queen cells. Another alternative is to double graph.


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## REDTRACTOR1 (Dec 10, 2003)

Bjorn,
Stakich has royal jelley also and i have bought from them before. Nice people too. I do not use any extra royal jelley but i cover the cell bars with a damp towell as soon as i graft. Does a real good job. I also keep grafting tools wiped down with alcohol.
Thanks Dwight


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

BjornBee...I bet you wouldn't use bought pollen for making patties, would you? And you wouldn't feed honey from an unknown source, would you? Then why would you risk using royal jelley from an unknown source?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I don't know the source. I don't know the dangers. I don't know if this is good, bad, or other. That's why I'm asking questions.

I did not talk to glory bee foods today. But from what I'm reading, everyone suggests a China connection, but nobody has stated for sure. Last time this happened we had people claiming pollen sub from China at MannLake. We know how that ended. 

I'll call tomorrow.

So I take that nobody uses store bought royal jelly.

So whats the next best thing? What tricks do you have up your sleeves?

Thanks.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

We buy our RJ from Stackich out of MI. He claims it is US produced. A little goes a long ways, we buy a small jar every year, I think it costs less than $15 delivered and is way more than we need for about 1000 cells.
He stores it frozen and we keep it in the fridge during Q rearing season. I mix it 50/50 with warm water then dab it in the cell cups. I use a wooden match head (the non sulfurous end ) which fits in the little divit at the bottom of the cups. I have good success with it as long as it doesn't dry out, I keep the finished frames covered with a damp cloth until ready to put in the starters.
Sheri


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>What tricks do you have up your sleeves?<

> I do not use any extra royal jelley but i cover the cell bars with a damp towell as soon as i graft. Does a real good job.<

I don't use anything to prime my cells, either. I provide the breeder colony with a good frame of fresh pollen...just on the other side of the excluder. The young larvae have a nice puddle of RJ. I use a Chinese grafting tool, which picks up both the puddle, and the larvae. Cover each cell bar with a damp towl when grafted, and when 3 bars are grafted, immediately place in cell builder. I have a very good acceptance rate...usually better than 40 of 45 grafts accepted. So...I don't really see the need for any priming.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm no queen producer, but I'd be very Leary of buying RJ from any source. Look at the risk/benefits first. CCD is here, and perhaps it has spread to US RJ producers and they just don't know it yet. Is it really worth the risk? Of course the link of CCD to RJ is far from proved, but the conservative route would be to avoid it unless the benefits outweigh the risks - only you can answer that.


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

I really don't see why anyone producing queens would need to buy royal jelly. Just graft a couple more cells than you really need and harvest the jelly to prime the next batch. Only takes 1-2 cells of jelly pulled on about the 3rd day to prime the next batch (38 cells per frame in my case). If you end up with a particularly good take, harvest a few more and freeze it. At the end of the season just freeze some to use in the spring. If you are just starting, graft a few days early and even if you have a lousy take, it will provide jelly for the future graft.

It takes little more time than you are already spending, costs almost nothing and avoids any risk of bringing in viruses, foulbrood, etc.

I just use small 2ml centrifuge tubes with caps. Handy for freezing and I only use them a week or two, storing them in the refrigerator to keep it fresh. Only downside is that I've only seen them sold in bags of 500 or larger. So I've got more than a lifetime supply.

Of course priming is not necessary. I've had perfect takes without it, but I simply find it easier and quicker to graft with more consistent results. Larvae also are not as likely to dry out. The makeup of royal jelly the workers feed the larvae actually changes with the age of the larvae, so the workers will end up changing out the jelly you put in there anyways.

-Tim


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I started out priming because Doolittle and Jay Smith recommended it. I also tried not priming and didn't see a difference. Then I got "Better Queens" and found that Jay Smith gave it up.

"We used to prime our cells with bee milk but, after careful examination, believe it was a detriment, for the first thing the bees do is to remove all the milk we had put in. Grafting in bare cells is better-or rather not so bad." --Jay Smith, Better Queens
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Shortcomings of the Grafting Method

I don't see a difference. But when I did this is how I got it:

"As a container for royal jelly, I use a small porcelain jar with a screw cap. A piece of waxed cardboard in the cover makes it air-tight. Let me offer a suggestion as to where you can get one of these jars. Make a raid on your wife's manicuring outfit, and, if luck is with you, you will find one of these jars. To be sure that luck will be with you, better do it when she is out. This jar usually has some pink dope in it. Take this out, put it into a tin can, present it to your wife with your compliments and make off with the jar. Thoroughly sterilize this jar by boiling, for the bees seem to object to the funny smell that comes with it. If your wife does not have this, or if you do not have a wife, you can go to the drug store and find just the size and style that suit you. The dope looks as though it might be of use if you put it into the grease cups of your flivver, but I do not want to suggest too many dangerous experiments for you to try all at once. For a jelly spoon, I prefer to make one out of the bone handle of a toothbrush, which also may be found in the manicuring outfit. Break off the brush and whittle down the small end until it fits nicely into a worker-cell. This jelly spoon and the jelly jar are to be carried in the pocket of your trousers or dress, whichever you wear. While working with your bees during the season you will be running across colonies that have royal jelly to spare. Whenever a swarm issues, just take out the jar and spoon and get the royal jelly. I have found that I come across enough in my regular work so that I never have to make any special hunt for jelly. It is well to have two of these jars; keep one in your pocket and the other in the grafting room." --Jay Smith, Queen Rearing Simplified
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearingsimplified.htm


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Michael, that is priceless! Did they really used to make toothbrushes out of bone? And what was that pink dope anyway?

With CCD and other boogies out there we maybe should reconsider boughten RJ and go to collecting our own. Sounds like an older "Carmex" container might work well. I know RJ isn't necessary but I tried grafting with and without and it just seemed easier to "float" the larvae off onto a pool of liquid, but I've heard of other substances that would not be as risky. 
Sheri


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Thanks for answering Red, it helps to get more experienced answers. Mr. Hofer, where did you get that idea? I never heard of it and am just curious. Not arguing.

Hawk


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

after reading this post bring up a question, does anyone one here double graft, you know to have the bee's prime the cell for you and you just swapping larva 3rd day, I use dry cell also but wondered if double grafting really was worth the time and how much better were the queens?


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

A larger queen producer (>10,000.00 queens/season) I have known for years
uses "bought" royal jelly. I'm not sure where he gets his from, but I'd be glad to ask him and post back here, 
or put you in contact with him Bjorn--you'd need to answer my email though. 

Adam Finkelstein
[email protected]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>does anyone one here double graft

I tried it and could see no difference. It's a lot more work.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

tarheit writes:
I really don't see why anyone producing queens would need to buy royal jelly. 

It takes little more time than you are already spending, costs almost nothing and avoids any risk of bringing in viruses, foulbrood, etc.


Of course priming is not necessary. I've had perfect takes without it, but I simply find it easier and quicker to graft with more consistent results. Larvae also are not as likely to dry out. The makeup of royal jelly the workers feed the larvae actually changes with the age of the larvae, so the workers will end up changing out the jelly you put in there anyways.

tecumseh writes:
exactly...
1)place a frame of green brood into a swarm box and you will likely have all the royal jelly you could possible need in about one day from the wild cells that are pulled. it is also not a bad way to see if a swarm box is queenless. 

2) priming a cell is likely more advantagous to someone just beginning queen rearing than someone with lots of queens under their belt. if you have little grafting experience it will make removing the larvae much easier. 

3) in regards to variables humidity is more important than temperature. although one variable is more important than the other, but if you desire some level of success you likely need to control both.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I would laso add to tecs comments is that priming could be good for the beginner as they are still new and slow to grafting. Without priming, the larvae have a chance to dry out.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

I don't think there is _any_ correlation between newbee grafters and RJ. 

We learned from a couple commercial guys that had been grafting for 30 years; they use RJ. Another guy we know who raises Qs commercially on a large scale uses RJ. We bought packages for years from a package producer/Q rearer who uses RJ for his own needs plus Q sales. I am not sure whom among them buy or harvest their own, but it was one of them that recommended Stakich to us; it was where they got theirs. 

I think RJ or not has more to do with how they were taught to begin with. I know someone that has raised their own Qs and cells for others (thousands a year) priming with diluted Coca Cola. "Things go better with Coke" ?

As far as speed of grafting being a factor, while large scale Q rearers are faster than beginners, they graft way more frames before sticking them in the starters, so actually may have them out longer. They do take pains to control the humidity.

Sheri


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## Jonathan Hofer (Aug 10, 2005)

Robert Hawkins said:


> Mr. Hofer, where did you get that idea? I never heard of it and am just curious. Not arguing.
> 
> Hawk


I'm assuming this is me . At any rate, i read somewhere that some people use a diluted honey & water mixture to prime their cell cups. So I started priming my cells with a small amount of honey acquired from the edges of the frames. Well, honey is good, but royal jelly might be better, even if it's not the "prime" royal jelly that the youngest larvae get. 

Usually, I graft from a frame with larvae that have a variable age. The larvae that is older (maybe 3 days after hatching) has quite a lot of extra royal jelly, and I just scoop out a little to prime my cell cups with. I find it better in getting the larvae off the grafting tool, and I'm quite sure that it doesn't hurt the larvae too much... Even if Jay Smith claims that the bees remove the older royal jelly anyways.  
I've raised some really good queens this way, although I can't give too much credit to the grafting. The cell starters & finishers are REALLY important too.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Sheri:

Royal jelly provides a cussion of insurance while the begginer grafts. It is duel purpose... it is easier to get the larvae off the grafting tool and provides extra moisture to avoid drying out.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The Jenter box gives me all the royal jelly that is there which works well. The Chinese grafting tool gives me most of the royal jelly that is there which also works well.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

mr hofer sezs:
Even if Jay Smith claims that the bees remove the older royal jelly anyways.

tecumseh replies:
well I would suspect that jay smith didn't suggest that ALL the older royal jelly was removed..... just some. from what I have read the composition of royal jelley changes as the larvae developes. so it would seem reasonable that the bees don't really consider all royal jelly equivalent and likely remove (and I would suspect this royal jelly is recycled) are replaced with royal jelly of the proper kind.


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## Jonathan Hofer (Aug 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> The Jenter box gives me all the royal jelly that is there which works well. The Chinese grafting tool gives me most of the royal jelly that is there which also works well.



I agree Mr. Bush. Originally I wanted to do my queen rearing with the Jenter kit. However, after numerous unsuccessful tries I was forced to graft and have been having excellent success. 

My problem with the Jenter kit was always the same over a period of a few years. Can be read here. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201368


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Jenter
I've never had a problem with the eggs disappearing if it was in the brood nest of a strong hive. Feeding doesn't hurt either.


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## Jonathan Hofer (Aug 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> >Jenter
> I've never had a problem with the eggs disappearing if it was in the brood nest of a strong hive. Feeding doesn't hurt either.


Well, one more try this coming spring.


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

Have not tried the Jenter but early trials with Nicot, I had no problem once the queen layed in the cups. I will try again in the spring. 
I also harvested a bit of royal jelly from a few cups and froze it in a small vial. I also want to try the grafting method (primed with RJ/water) but wanted Nicot as primary method until learning curve is behind me.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

I've reared tens of thousands of queens in my own little queen business and have a few observations. Now I going to stir the pot :>)

The best queens are raised by healthy, well fed bees without any interference from man. When we attempt to rear queens disruption and colony degradation occurs. So, as queen rearers, the best queens will be reared when disruptions are minimized and any degradation shifted from the queen rearing functions to another aspect of the colony.

Early, in my queen rearing, I tested priming versus non-priming. I was using standard grafting tools, in a very hot, dry climate. Priming provided somewhat better results than dry grafting. 

Royal jelly is very easy to obtain and didn't need to be purchased. If grafting on a 4 - 3 schedule, just pull a few three day old cells from a previous graft. The royal jelly is fresh, so no nutrition degradation. It's from your hives. So, no disease worries. Three or four cells worth of royal jelly diluted will prime a thousand cups.

Knowing that the bees increase the sugar content of royal jelly for a queen, I thought maybe I could do better. What would happen if I increased the sugar content a little more? So, I tried adding honey at various amounts to the distilled water used to dilute the royal jelly. Amounts varied from just a trace through 50%. When you're grafting more than a thousand at a pop, it's easy to sacrifice a few bars for a test. Results, any messing with the royal jelly negatively impacted acceptance. And as sugar increased queen rearing became intermorph rearing.

Up till then, I'd lost sight of one important aspect. And it's real easy to do this when queen rearing. That is, the bees simply do bee stuff best. That means we must cooperate as much as possible with the bees. Our job is provide the best possible environment with as little interference as possible. All our methods should be evaluated from this perspective.

So, why did I prime those cells? It was a better way to approximate a natural situation than dry grafting with a standard tool, that removes only the larva and leaves their pool of royal jelly behind.

Are there ways to rear queens that involve no disturbance to the young larva. Methods and tools have been invented that do just that. Swarm cells can be used. The Alley and Hopkins methods work. A brass tool has been used in Eastern Europe that will surgically extract a larva with lower cell and base intact. And a modern derivation where plastic contraptions allow a larva and royal jelly pool to be pulled out intact. But most of these don't really work very well in a commercial environment. Failure rates are too high. Or production rates too low/unpredictable.

With a Chinese grafting tool, the larva and royal jelly pool are removed with minimal disturbance. After converting to this tool without priming, my grafting take improved beyond what it was with a standard grafting tool with priming. See 

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/grafting-tools/

Regards
Dennis


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

link did not work.


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