# How to make wax foundation



## Scott J. (Feb 6, 2007)

*Re: Making Foundation*

I have a roller mill that was made by Tom industries. He has passed away recently I understand. I have seen a few mills for sale here on beesource every once in awhile. I don't know where I could guide you to learn how to do it. There is no book as far as I know on how to make foundation. I learned how to do it from ED and Dee lusby. I do enjoy makeing it. To me its a relaxing thing to do in the winter with the nice smell and all. I can usually make 150 to 200 deep sheets a day. If you come up with a roller PM me and I could write or talk you through the process.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Opinions on wax spinners*

Charlie -

I have photos of making foundation when I was at Ed and Dee's. I suppose I could get them posted somewhere.


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## PerryBee (Dec 3, 2007)

*Re: Opinions on wax spinners*

Didn't Don the "fatbeeman" have a couple of sets of rollers for sale recently? I even think they were small cell.
I thought I saw a posting of his about it.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Opinions on wax spinners*

It was deleted for lack of contact info.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

*Re: Opinions on wax spinners*

Barry 
Did you Post your info on this?
I would like too see any of the How to's

Thanks
Tommyt



Thanks for follow up post :applause:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Opinions on wax spinners*

It will be a day or two. I have to scan the photos first. These were probably the last pictures I took with my SLR film camera.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

*Re: Opinions on wax spinners*

Thank you, Scott! I'm looking forward to it, Barry, and early thanks for your efforts. PerryBee, I appreciate the lead. Any idea what the cost is?

I'm a machinist, and could make a similar machine, perhaps just off the pix, but I would need to see them. If it works out that way, I could perhaps make a blueprint and a manufacturing sequence to post on the build it yourself section, so long as I'm not violating any patents.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Opinions on wax spinners*

Turns out I already had the images on my computer. Here is the page:
http://www.beesource.com/resources/elements-of-beekeeping/milling-wax-foundation/

These were taken in 2001. My son Jon (in the photos) is now in the Army in Afghanistan! Time flies.


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## PerryBee (Dec 3, 2007)

*Re: Opinions on wax spinners*

kilocharlie:

Jan. 14/11
fatbeeman says: "I have several wax mills for sale. 1 for 1300.00 and 1 for 2000.00 I will teach you on the mill you buy. Mills pay for themselves in short time. Also you recycle your own chemical wax." (I am pretty sure Don meant to insert the word "free" after chemical but forgot). He's a small cell guy and he might even have a video on youtube.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Kilocharlie - with all respect, if my memory is correct, the first gentleman to make a foundation mill(Ohmstead(?)from Fond du Lac Wisc?) had to invent a new method of machining to make it. If you have a sinker EDM, with a 4th axis, you are all set. On a historical note, I was able to inspecta foundation mill (in a bee museum in Cassvill) that I suspect was my Great Great Grandfather's. It did NOT have the same cell size as "regular" foundation.


Roland


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Barry, that is an awesome photo / instruction set! I suppose the setting between the rollers determines brood foundation, thin surplus, etc. Do we crimp wire the brood foundation afterward, or can the wires be rolled in?

I'll probably be able to build that machine myself, as it looks fairly simple. I may even add micrometer adjustments for thickness. And the description of the modified water heater was clear enough. It shouldn't be too difficult, either.

Big THANK YOU, and please do send my best wishes to the star of the pix over in Afghanistan. You are both heroes - Barry for running Beesource and his boy, Jon, for defending the non-Taliban extremist portion of the world!

I raise bottle of mead to you and two to Jon if and when you scalp Bin Laden. We're cheering for you.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks, PerryBee, and thanks, Roland. I know enough to look at one first before attempting it, and to receive instruction from a few different sources, get some experience on one, to draw a blueprint, and write a manufacturing plan.

A sinker EDM machine would do it on a dividing head or a CNC EDM on a 4th axis "divider" head, such as a Haas unit. It could also be knurled on a lathe, if I make the knurl wheel and mount it on my old knurl tool and set the thread bar and RPM so the helix angle at 30 degrees. There are at least 6 other methods I can think of.

I notice the bees tend to offset the cells of one side of a comb from the other side, such that when I look into the center of a hexagonal cell, I can see the other side has the corners of 3 adjacent cells centered in the floor of the hexagon I'm looking through.

So the rollers must be geared to stay out of sink a half of a cell.


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## Brooklyn (Nov 14, 2009)

This lady has some videos on making wax foundation. They will give you the basic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLkSOSsSGDs


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## Brooklyn (Nov 14, 2009)

Or you could get one like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQuoJz2mguc&feature=related


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## James Burke (Feb 4, 2002)

That is one sweet machine, with some excellent engineering to boot. 

It's amazing to think bees can do the very same thing on their own.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

kilocharlie said:


> I suppose the setting between the rollers determines brood foundation, thin surplus, etc.


There are adjustments on each end of the rollers. Dee keeps it set to give a fairly thick foundation. The bees will work it down when they construct the comb.



> Do we crimp wire the brood foundation afterward, or can the wires be rolled in?


Dee crimps her wires and embeds them with the same setup I show here:

http://www.beesource.com/resources/elements-of-beekeeping/frame-wiring-and-embedding/

She uses staples instead of eyelets.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks, Barry. Again, killer photo / instruction set. I was actually wondering about the 9 vertical, crimped wires with the hooked tops that comes embedded in wired foundation. It doesn't appear to be melted in place. I use the four horizontal wires threaded through the frame in addition to vertical wires on deeps (three on mediums, zero horizontal nor vertical wires in comb honey). The combs just stay so much straighter that way. I'm trying some foundationless frames as well this year.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Roland said:


> ... On a historical note, I was able to inspecta foundation mill (in a bee museum in Cassvill) that I suspect was my Great Great Grandfather's. It did NOT have the same cell size as "regular" foundation.
> 
> 
> Roland


Now that's cool! Cassvill goes on my "someday" vacation plans. I'm also going to look up Olmstead, and other early patent apps for foundation machines. I'm already hunting through them for the Apidictor and it's derivatives.


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## Jeffrey Todd (Mar 17, 2006)

Barry, thanks for the photos, thanks for the website, and most of all, tell your son THANKS for his sacrifices on our behalf. I wish him Godspeed and will keep him and his comrades in my prayers. He looks like a son anyone would be proud of.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Kilocharlie - I see a metalurical problem with knurling. Any material(unlees you heat treat afterwards) that is soft enough to knurl, may nothold up to abuse.
I believe that Ohmstead(?) built three knifes ,on seperate ways, that where driven into the cylinders at the proper angles to cut the interecting pyramid at the bottom of the cell. 

Oh, and I was wrong, it is "Cassville". on the Mississippi, SE wisc. just southof where the Wisconsin river joins at Prarrie Du Chien.

Roland


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I'm pretty sure the guy that made Dee's mill made it an a lathe.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Good point, Roland. I could get surprised by how much force the wax could exert under extrusion. I need to come up with a design and run a finite force analysis, then try some destructive testing. 

I just know the limitation will be on the length of the rollers, which I was hoping to make fairly long in order to be efficient at producing lots of foundation. In order to quadruple the 200 / day figure mentioned earlier (good to supply 20 boxes), a roller 8 sheets wide is desirable. This is to figure in that rolling might not be the slowest step.

Such a long roller could be ground with form cutters on an outside diameter grinder mounted on a lathe or gun drill machine, which will allow workpieces of harder, tougher die steel or food grade stainless (which isn't that bad to cut). I figure a trial with a knurl on aluminum is the "quick, cheap, and dirty" approach to start developing the idea into an efficient flex manufacturing process.

Your idea of something close to eutectiod steel and heat treat / surface harden is a strong consideration - annealed SAE 1070 does cut nicely, hardens and toughens up pretty well, too, especially when nitrided, and very much so if formed (hence my hope to knurl it).

A very wide wax melter could handle a multiple board or wide board arrangement and I could get a few steps time saving that way. Lots of possibilities, big THANK YOU.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Barry, Thanks for the clue! It will probably come down to who gets enthused, what they have available and if I can get prices on form cutters. Small involute gear cutters are close to the form I have in mind, and would suggest a dividing head set on a horizontal mill. 

A single form bit on a lathe may prove a better way to get a good finish and accurate result. The second and third cuts are the beasties - they won't be as smooth as the first.

The EDM (electrical discharge machining) process that Roland mentions may be the best bet. It erodes a precision shape. It does cost a pretty penny, but it more or less ensures an accurate shape in brutally hard and tough die materials. The machine will pay for itself in short order despite fairly high cost.

My suspicion is the O.D. grinder on the lathe will do the trick cheapest and I may have to settle for 1070 steel or D2. First order of business is to go meet the Lusbys or anyone from this cool forum who volunteers to do a live demo, possibly to let me get my hands dirty (or waxy). Wish I was going to this weekend's meeting in Arizona!

P.S. Does Jon know he's a hit on Beesource yet? Please send him our best wishes, and hopefully he logs in soon with news on Afganistan's bee situation.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

*kilocharlie*
I have 2 pasta rolling machines,I am not a machinist what so ever,but a tinker
Beeing a new Beek ,I have zero wax to play with(yes I need to buy some) 
I feel with these machines I can make sheets,If so I would then look for a way 
to have the rollers cut,If you never saw one do google pasta roller
They have 3 or 4 different cuts and size attachments,they are hand crank 
This may help you in the research and design


*Barry* that was a nice look at the past making the foundation
I will say with confidence you didn't just get started 
I envy all who saw interest in Bees well before me 

Tommyt


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Kilocharlie - I am also intrested because I may wish to reproduce my Great Great Grandfather's mill. I have a Horizontal mill , and a dividing head, but can not imagine how you would sink a pattern in that has pyramid shaped indents AND rises. I have a shaper head for a Bridgeport, that could be angled to cut one face of the pyramis, but it would tak alot of indexing to hit all of the faces.

Your idea of doing many sheets at once has me worried. Check what diameter you would need to control the flex on a cylinder of the length you need. You might have to buld it with a crown, another dergee of complication.

Roland


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

TommyT - I'll swing by several Yuppie friends and see who has a pasta roller. Just looking at it might help a lot. Thank you!

Roland - My response is too long for Beesource. Private message me with an email and I'll tell you several approaches. One good approach might involve you, Barry, possibly Michael Bush, possibly the Lusbys, anyone else interested, and me writing up a business plan...some time down the road. A better wax machine would need some finance and could turn out a serious profit.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I was wrong again, The man from Fond du LAc that made one of the first mill may have been name "Olm".

Roland


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Kilo 
Yuppie I don't know:doh: I am Italian its standard equipment
I'll get it out and take some pictures post the links 
I would bet if there is an Italian Import store they will have them
The yuppie mall store Can't think of the name It has high end pans and 
other cooking products may have it 

xxx? and Sonoma or something is the name ????

Tommyt


BTW I never saw a piece of wax foundation so I may be way off :doh:


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Tommyt-
Mamma Mia! Italian bees, pasta machines, Tommy guns, - standard equipment! We gotsa no 'Talians round here where I live - just Yuppies, Homies, and too many cops telling me not to keep bees! That's why I'm moving soon.

If the pasta machines can be modified to produce sheet wax, that will help.

Actually, I'm probably going to build a machine capable of processing 4'x8' sheets after the embossing roller gets built. I foresee 5 machines: wax sheet; embosser, cutting die, pusher/stacker, and a scale to weigh the boxes. Those small machines give you DOability, a big one gives you efficiency. Gotta be able to pay the 2 guys running the 5 machines and pay me a fat profit with plenty of foundation left over for my bees.


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## nunarr (Aug 7, 2010)

*Re: Opinions on wax spinners*

Hi interesting, what happens if you just put the plan sheet in the hive, ever tried it


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Yes, I made flat beeswax paper and put it in. Lots of kooky cells. Maybe those bees were drunk. I felt drunk trying to inspect them. After keeping bees in the Mojave dessert, the coastal foothills, and the San Joaquin Valley, I like wax foundation with 9 vertical crimped wires installed onto 4 horizontal wires in the frame, held in place with melted wax. 116 degree F weather did that to me. I will probably like small-cell foundation even better.

I'm making some foundationless frames and trying them this year, too. Frames are the next project after the current run of boxes. All this machining stuff we're looking into won't happen until later, when its all on paper, has a business plan, and is financed. I suspect Roland will make his replica before I get started. Any Investors?


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

kilocharlie said:


> TommyT - I'll swing by several Yuppie friends and see who has a pasta roller. Just looking at it might help a lot. Thank you!


Even this ******* has a pasta roller.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

kilocharlie said:


> I foresee 5 machines: wax sheet; embosser, cutting die, pusher/stacker, and a scale to weigh the boxes.


Next question, where are you going to get clean wax?


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Here is one









http://www.akitchen.com/store/pasta.html


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Barry - uncappiings from about 200 hives in all new equipment, that have not been chemically treated for mites. The wax is SO different colored than the old equipment. The reason I am going this dirrection is I question of the purity of foundation used in Bsswood section comb honey, where you eat the wax.

Roland


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

It will take a boat load more than that to feed a mill that kilocharlie is talking about.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Here is a gallery of both Dee and Kirk Webster's foundation making setups. I also have video of both, and will try to get to editing/uploading, but won't be for a while.
https://picasaweb.google.com/Dean.Ramona/FoundationMakingAndMills#

deknow


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I just cleaned out a cabinet and found 25 year old honey, beeswax, beesuit, copper smoker and this 1970's vintage Leaf Products foundation press.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Rio - Now the thought of a ******* pasta roller conjures up some images...is it powered by a smallblock hemi? Leftover sourmash from the still recycled into pasta? Say "Hi" to Foxworthy for me.

Tommyt - that makes me hungry! Standard equipment? - soon as I can get one! The Imperia with the ravioli attachment. I'm getting fat looking at it.

Deknow - Thank you for that AWESOME photo gallery! What was your output? I like the multi-board dip, the water bath, and the closeups of the rollers. Maybe you could describe that melter.

odfrank - My first guess was a flat, book-type press just like that. Have you worked it yet? Too bad the 25-year-old honey wasn't 25-year-old mead!

Barry - I already have a boat...Got bees? Actually, that's another thread - what bee plants produce the most wax? What breeds? I can probably find research on what areas - and my guess is go North in the summer. Also, has anybody made any efforts at purification of contaminated wax (fluxes, centrifuge, microfiltration, etc.)? I have a small group of boxes that are out away from civilization and (hopefully) pesticides, etc. More as the stock increases, so I'm hoping that's my personal clean wax source. I'd love to see a thread on electric fences and anti-bear measures, too.

:applause::applause::applause: Everybody!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

sometimes, having a camera gets you out of real work 

the biggest problem with both of these setups (at least for a newish beekeeper) is that it takes a LOT of wax to be able to dip the board(s) vertically.

don fatbeeman has a different method...he melts his wax in a tub filled with water, and dips horizontally. the amount of wax needed is only enough to float on top of the water. at first glance, it seems that it is much more work, as each dip only yields one sheet...but after dipping in wax, he dips in a water bath...pulling the board out of the water (again, horizontally) pulls the wax off the board and you are ready for the next dip.

i don't remember the yield, but with dee dipping, ramona embossing, and me trimming, we were cooking!

the melting vats are simply small metal barrels in a thermostatically controlled water bath.

deknow


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

*kilocharlie * 
You know that Plates can roll /stamp,So if you have too many pitfalls with mill roller, Printing Press??
Make a giant Steam Roller with embossed plates,you now have a 4 foot X ?
I forget your other numbers , you can stamp roll your foundation.
You need to come to FL. I think I would like to venture into this,all I need someone with machining back ground?
You Will also get a Pasta lesson:applause:
I need to post a pasta sauce with honey receipe(not here)


Tommyt


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Deknow - This just keeps getting more interesting. I tried a small pan of water - results were not impressive. I'm sure there are lots of variables to consider, size of tub, operator (lack of) skill, water temp, etc. I think the volume of wax comment Barry made favors the multi-board, vertical dipping setup. Time will tell - its still early in the game yet.

Tommyt - I'll take you up on that in about three years - I'm heads down committed to getting my stock population up and getting my *** up to Univ. of Calif. at Davis for some of Susan Cobey's classes on queen bee artificial insemination, and some more business credits. Time is at a premium while I'm still coming through first 5 years of a business startup.

Like I offered to Roland, Barry, any others interested, we could in the mean time write up a business plan. I use the template from SBA (Small Business Administration)'s S.C.O.R.E. (Service Corps Of Retired Executives). From all I can gather, this business plan template gets lots of enthusiasm from investors, especially if your numbers are realistic and work out. Another aspect is assembling a team. The more management, technical, marketing, and beekeeping credibility we can muster, the better the chance of getting sufficiently financed to consider startup.

Roland pointed some things out to me about the geometry that I was indeed wrong about. Straight, continuous cuts or impressions won't do it. I have come up with a quick and dirty cheater method of making a roller, though. I could have one some time next winter, but more likely the following year. If somebody with the right tools and machines in a shop gets enthused, it could happen sooner. Then, we'd still have to build the machine and the rest of the setup, and everything must not only work, but work _well_. Expect revision time.

There really is no need for a big machine until we have a LARGE supply line of wax. The machines will take time and money to engineer, draft, cost, finance, build, test, and modify. Can your enthusiasm linger? It takes long-term enthusiasm, doing your homework, covering all your bases, the guts to start, and the grit to make it happen when everything looks like its going wrong. This thread is the 1% inspiration. Now for the 99% perspiration!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

a few thoughts.....

1. I do know of a complete automatic line (liquid wax to trimmed embossed sheets of foundation) that might be available for the right price (probably in the $12K range). If your goal is simply to do foundation production, this would probably be cheaper than reinventing the wheel from scratch. This unit is not currently running and would need some TLC, but it's all there, and a proven setup from soup to nuts. I have some photos at home (I believe), but I'm not at home. I believe this is the same setup that Dadant uses. I don't know if it is for sale, but it is not being used...so there is some price that you could take it home for.

2. Wax will be your problem. If I thought there was enough clean wax available to run the above machine, we would probably have already purchased it. I don't see a point in making more foundation that is contaminated with miticides...I do see a point in making inexpensive mills for individuals/clubs (see below).

3. I have a few ideas for manufacturing mills at a low enough price that it would be practical for individuals and clubs...coupled with the horizontal dipping method, this would be even more practical, as having enough wax to dip a board vertically (and to keep it full) is a problem. I'm not quite willing to share (sorry), but if you have a budget to work with, we can talk. This isn't just "more of the same", but a whole new appraoch (not CNC, not EDM, not casting).

4. There might be a way to knurl the mills _if_ you first cut three intersecting threads to remove most of the material (thinking about the geometry of this makes my head hurt).

5. I do know a guy who is brilliant at building special purpose machines (a frankenstein approach with older CNC controllers). This is not a fly by night operation, and I'm sure that for a price he would build a special purpose machine to make the mills (probably with adjustable cell size). For my own purposes, I'd be better off purchasing a $2k mill than investing in such a machine, but I would be happy to put you in touch and be involved _if_ you have a budget to work with (I'd only want a few mills out of the deal, but this guy is the best and I don't want to waste his time without a realistic budget and a realistic chance that someone would actually pay him for his work).

6. You should look at some old (1900 or so) "ABC of Bee Culture" books (find them for free on Google Books). There are good descriptions of the geometry involved that might give you some insight.

deknow


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Deknow -
Its starting to smell like there's enough interest here that a group of us should meet. Given the geographical diversity of those posting on this thread, I'm thinking video conferencing.

I can handle the actual writing of a business plan, but I will need a price on the existing system, a price quote from the machine builder, and professional profiles from those who will be involved. I will also price out the "re-invent the wheel" approach, just to make sure all our options have been explored.

A business plan is a request for money to investors. A billboard with a price tag. It will require a fair amount of realistic marketing research, so as to advertise a projected return on investment.

More than one plan could be written - one for manufacturing foundation, one for making small mills. I anticipate that neither market is flooded, and the popularity of beekeeping is on the rise, so timing and conditions are likely favorable. We need to discuss the most important part of the business - competitive advantage, or why we are different and the way we do it is better. This part is better discussed of the record.

Startups are more difficult to finance, as its all ontological pie in the sky - just a bunch if ideas. If we go through some effort and actually start doing something, call it a business, keep accurate books, turn it into a going concern...financing gets much easier.

Until numbers have been crunched, markets are researched, a business plan is written, submitted to investors, and interest is shown, there is no budget. The machine builder would have to be willing to figure out a quote on speculation. If he's not willing to do that, I know a good number of machine and controller builders, some of whom might be willing.

As to your ideas, keep them private for now, a patent would be a pleasant surprise after the company goes public with sale of stocks (shares owned by principals - including you and me - could go up in value when the public finds out that good things like patents happen to a company).

Private message me with an email address and we can make arrangements to call or video conference.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Barry, err, Captain Sqkcrk - I tried to respond to a private message and the message I had just composed to Deknow double - posted. Sorry! Trim it if you can. - KC


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Woo hoo, I did it!! Boy was that fun. Scary too.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

kilocharlie said:


> I can handle the actual writing of a business plan,


I would think twice about investing in a business with any guy with the word "Kilo" in his handle. My investment might go up in "smoke".

If I wanted to market foundation from clean wax, I would for the first few years, just assemble the wax and contract with someone who has already invested in the equipment to manufacture it. 

I am not overly concerned about pesticides in foundation for several reasons. Foundation is made primariliy from cappings which do not contain much pesticides. The tainted wax is diluted by the clean wax. Pesticides degrade from old age. They would degrade substantially from the over 145 degrees required to melt the wax. 

If we had our bodies tested for the pesticides it already contains we would just spend the rest of our lives hiding in our coffins.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

ODDfrank, is your phobia against military phonetic alphabet or the metric system? Have you added a hookah to your bee smoker? Is it autographed by Cheech and Chong? Just teasin' back...

Happy to have a good buddy to whom to sell the poison wax.  Maybe the bees will use it to make drone comb.

Your point is a good one, and my intention. I'll very likely utilize the lesson you passed along in the foundationless=hoax? thread to produce lots of clean wax, drone, honey, or otherwise. What better than foundationless frames to make clean wax? I guess I'd better start on a bigger solar wax melter first.

Thanks for the ideas, bro!


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Kilo 
Whats up on the Drawing Board are you doing Phone calls? 
Did DeKnow's machine give you all you needed opposed to
a new??
I know folks that have machine shops,I decided a few years ago
to make Bullets,sometimes I come to a point when a special Mold 
needs to be made for a Odd ball ,antique or just a good old design,
this is were a machinist comes into play and can be a dream come true,
I'm not saying I want a piece of your pie 
I am more curious at this point,and as far as Ideas.
I talk sometime without using the brakes that can be good or disastrous
I may just make a Honey comb waffle iron that will become 
The greatest breakfast tool on the Planet 


Paul Harvey 
Gooooooooooood day




Tommyt


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...I can't say that I'm interested in such a project.

I'd be happy to hook you up with the existing line that I'm aware of....but it would be counterproductive (from the standpoint of the seller) to allow enough close inspection/measurements, etc to build a duplicate. Neither the seller nor I have anything to gain (unless there were consulting fees negotiated), and the seller is not anxious to sell.

I'm definitely not interested in a "business plan by committee"...to much headache, too many personalities/visions/funding sources.

If someone puts together a plan and funding, I'm happy to work as a consultant (either on a fee basis, or for a piece of the action...depending on the terms offered). Otherwise, we will persue this when we have some capital available on our own.

I'm not trying to diss or discourage anyone, if you have your own ideas and your own plans, follow them (if they are good).

...but I will say that an affordable mill setup would have a large market, but a large production line will be dependent on a large supply of clean wax...something I don't think is feasible at this time, and even if it were, it would probably require a good amount of capital to secure...and even more if it is to be secured into the future.

deknow

deknow


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Kilo-charlie - I spoke with my father today(89 years old) and requested he look for information in his OLD ABC-XYZ books about the first foundation mills. I will report back when I have an asnwer.

Crazy Roland


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Here's how they used to do it.

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...nfluence-of-cell-size/comb-foundation-part-1/


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

It all sounds very exciting but are these machines ( and cost) not better for a pretty big outfit?
Here in Australia I can send in my wax ( reasonably clean) , pay 48 cents per sheet to clean the wax and roll/emboss the sheet and get it back. 
There are only so many hours in a day...


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Hello, everyone! I'm quagmired in moving pains, and thus slow to respond.

Tommyt - Buon giorno. The drawing boards are on hold while I'm moving closer to the almond orchards. The 18 foot flatbed truck I'm buying gets low mileage, so moving is my best option right now. Later down the time road, I'll get a more fuel-efficient diesel. 
All who are interested will be invited to negotiations for a piece of the business pie. This project is still in preliminary discussion - a going business concern is perhaps 3 to 5 years away. Meanwhile, make lots of clean wax!

Deknow - I understand you position entirely. A healthy dose of doubt is the first ingredient of a good investor. We'd sure like to keep a good mind like your's in the loop, though.

Roland - Thanks for the additional research! Say "Hello" to poppa from us young whippersnapper beekeepers. Check out the link in Barry's post!

Barry - WOW!!! That's awesome! I'm going to copy the article in large print and enlarge the engravings to poster size.

Max2 - G'day! Those are exactly the kind of questions a business plan will be looking into. Business is all about competitive advantage - why what/how WE do something is worse, equal to, or better than what or how THEY do it. Can we do it better, more reliably, cheaper, or for a more inclusive market, etc.?
Thanks for the doubts, I wouldn't want to leave any stone unturned before starting a business.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

It seems to me that rule number 1 goes like this:
You want to be the one selling the razor blades and/or the diabetes test strips.
You do not want to be the one selling the actual razor or blood sugar meter.

In bee keeping, it's the bees. Not the foundation. There is no turn rate on the foundation. You always need more bees.

Don't get me wrong, known clean foundation would be a good thing. But ya ain't gonna get rich doing it.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

My feeling is that there are lots of good uses for beeswax - people think up all kinds of things from candles to lipstick to bullet lubricants - but with bees disappearing in great numbers the world around, I can think of none more important than helping make more bees.

I'm well aware that there are issues for and against the use of foundation, and for "clean" wax, but some people use clean foundation and some people use foundation exposed to miticides and other "non-natural" treatments. These people help make X many more bees on the planet, some of which swarm and go back to nature and survive.

I'm aware that there are other sectors in the economy that will earn more money for the effort. I've also been a machinist, a carpenter, a millwright, a gunsmith, and an aircraft builder, none of which have made me rich yet. I owned a tree service, which was making me a lot wealthier a lot faster than working for other people. 

Beekeeping is experiencing a surge right now - lots of people are calling me asking for hives for sale, for lessons, and several investors are interested in getting a venture going. The foundation setup might be the aspect that sells the deal.

I raise bees now. I doubt I will get richer than the Dadants by next year, or any time soon, for that matter, but a few years down the road, I will have all the machines that make all the parts of a beehive except the staples. If I can do this efficiently, others will buy the foundation, the hives, the bees, the queens, yada yada. If I don't do this, I will only be older and poorer.

Thank you for the criticism, it really motivates me!


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Hi kilocharlie,

I would be last to discourage you to take on a venture in the beekeeping industry. I'm simply a little sad that I'm to old now to take that direction. I see a great future and would love to make boxes and foundations - I love the smell of both. There is nothing like the smell of newly worked wood and clean wax.
For me - I will keep doing a little here and there to make sure I can go to sleep with the sweet scent of honey and the buzz of bees. Good luck to you!


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

G'Day, Max!
How's beekeeping Down Under? Got all your splits ready for the fall? Spring is here and I'm catching swarms in my bait hives already.

I've been hoping to catch an Ozzy 'keeper here on the web to ask about the Tarra trees and when they bloom. I've heard that it happens down in southern Western Australia and is far and away the largest nectar flow in the world.

Do you know much about that? Its a good, long run from Queensland...

I lived a year in New South Wales as an exchange student, but that was long before I started beekeeping (back when Malcolm Fraser was NSW premier and Johann Petersen ruled Queensland). Going into bees has renewed my interest in returning. Perhaps you could post some information on Tarra trees?

I may move to Canada, as it has the 2nd highest honey yield per hive in the world, with daylight reaching to 18 or 20 hours, but Australia is tempting as it leads the world. I suspect that is largely due to the Tarra, as much of the continent is so dry.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

I guess this is off-topic?
I think you mean Jarrah (http://www.jarrahhoneyinfo.com/)
I'm living on the opposite side if the continent and we sadly don't have any Jarrah.
The season has picked up over here but we have a big issue with the SHB. Slowly learning to deal with them. We also had floods here and South and North and cyclones up North and bushfires in the South.... Lots of hives where lost.
Here we can exoect some honey all year round. Never really big flows and each time a different taste. It makes for interesting beekeeping.
Politica have changed too, but that is another story.
max2


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, really Off Topic. Let's keep the visiting to a minimum. PMs work well for visiting about Topics not Hardware/Equipment related.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Sorry about the off-topic! Couldn't resist asking an Aussie.

Thank you, Max2, for the link. Fascinating. It becomes apparent how important the nectar source is. Amazing, too, how fast we can get information with this internet, and how important our contacts have become.


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