# dead hives, now what?



## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Sorry to hear about your loss, SB. 
Sounds like a severe condensation problem to me - but that's just stating the obvious really. 

May I ask some questions?

1. Whereabouts are you - what is/was the winter like?
2. How well is your hive insulated - especially above the top bars?
3. How much food was left in the hive when you opened it?
4. What - if any - provision for ventilation do you have in your hive?


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## space bee (Jan 16, 2006)

Hi Buckbee,

I am in upstate NY. Winter was strange: very mild and wet in Dec. and most of Jan. (except for one cold spell), then got really cold in late Feb. and most of March. In the 50s now, forecast for next week is 40s, down to 20 at night. 

No hive insulation...

Ventilation mostly in back of hive. 

Not sure exactly how much honey is left, only took a quick look today, but at least 4 full combs in each hive.

So your guess is they died of too much moisture, not some disease?


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

I visited the Catskills once and saw a total eclipse of the sun from the top of a mountain. Unforgettable. Hope to come back one day.

Anyway...

I think some of the problem may be with the design of your hive. I'm guessing that you have Lang-style top bars and straight sides? If so, that makes a lot of space for the bees to heat. Did you close down the space with a follower board to, say six or seven top bars? 

When I worked at Buckfast, we used big modified Dadants, 20" suare and a foot deep. Spring 2005 I opened many hives that looked like you describe - black mould, food available but not consumed... It struck me that unless the cluster was strong going into winter, they would have trouble heating all that empty space and maybe they couldn't and maybe the thin walls and cold outside air and the moisture inside... 

I designed a TBH with 17" top bars - 15" inside the hive - 11" deep, with sloping sides. The bees are kept in the middle during the winter for maximum warmth. I don't say I have all the answers, but take a look if you are interested.


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## Wojtek (May 31, 2005)

I am strongly convinced that insulation combined with a volume of space is the most important for successful wintering of a cluster. This is much more important than ventilation.
A divider or as you call it a follower board, is an essential necessity. 
In my practice I use a window. This is letting me to make observation of a phenomenon of moisture and condensation, its distribution on a walls and intensity of condensation.
The closest vicinity of cluster there is no condensation on walls in moderately cold temperature. The more distantly from a cluster condensation on walls (and on anything) increases gradually to a level of flowing dawn water. 
This is natural phenomenon of basic physics in which the colder walls the more intense condensation of vapor. This everyone can observe in every home in winter where condensation is only on widows but not on walls of a room which are better thermal insulators then thin glass of windows. In balanced temperature between temperature of a surface of walls and temperature of air inside of hive, and any enclosed volume, there is no condensation at all.
Naturally, due to metabolism of bees there is constant production of moisture, but the intensity of metabolism decreases with lowering temperature. Generation of heat decrease but production of moisture decreases too. 
If a volume in which a cluster is enclosed is sufficiently small in relation to a size of cluster and walls are good thermal insulator, there will be no condensation on walls and on anything inside and bees will be able excellently maintain and regulate their micro climate inside a hive.
Naturally, if a volume in which they dwell is large they are trying to increase temperature. This is increasing metabolism and of course production of moisture. Consumption of sugar is huge so the moisture, and this process is endless since there is always not enough heat and more water. There is plenty of water on everything inside, mildew, bacteria, fungi, and everything to start problems.
So, what I practice. In w fall or late fall I reduce the volume with the help of divider to a maximum, relatively to a size of cluster which at that time starts to form itself in a shape ball in colder nights. 
Increasing ventilation by providing some opening in an upper part of hive and causing chimney effect is not my favored solution. 
Probably you will notice, using described technique principia, how little honey bees need to survive a winter.
My hives are build with combination of wood and Styrofoam 1" thick. Divider, - 1" styrofoam. Future hives will be build with 1 1/2" walls. 
Some picture you could see on my home page. Text is in Polish but pictures could be useful. Pictures are scattered in different parts of this home page. You could start from:
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/POLISH/Ule/Wojtekshives2.html


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Wojtek - thanks for describing the problem and the solution so clearly. You have confirmed my thoughts on the subject. What do you think of the idea of keeping the colony in the middle of the hive, using two follower boards, instead of trapping them at one end? - see picture at http://www.biobees.com/images/build_top_bar_hive/index.php?start=27

By the way, I would love to include a picture of your beautiful hive in my book. Would you mind - I would provide a link to your site, of course.


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## Wojtek (May 31, 2005)

Buckbee, - Having entrance in the middle of TBH certainly will make bees happy. If they will be more happy then having entrance situated in different place I am not able to answer.
Middle entrance has its centuries old history, at least on the area of Poland where hives were carved high in a trunk of large trees. Because of nature of such cavity entrance was in a middle during entire history of bee beekeeping. Whatever type of hives the entrance was always in the middle. This is rooted in human minds so deeply that for most of beekeepers it is unimaginable to have an entrance in different place. This are centuries, but it was enough to have only slightly over 100 years to make unimaginable to use top bar without foundation or at least a strip of it, or at least some grove with wax in it, as it was always advised in an early years of modern TBH, which started only about 2 decades ago in USA but was known centuries earlier in Poland in more archaic form. These strips of foundation or groves filled with wax are not essential at all, but langsthrots dominated beekeeping so profoundly that thinking differently than langsthot is almost a profanation for a so called "experienced beekeepers".
Personally, I think, side entrance with utilization of something I called "Fantom" which I use and described in my home page is more practical comparing to middle entrance.
My be there is some difference for bees but I doubt it is a big one. 

You mentioned some of my picture. All my pleasure that you like it. If this is the one with heavy ornaments I have to tell you that this is not a fulfillment of my aspiration. My be I will make some in a future about which I will be able to say that I like it as a garden or back yard hive.
Certainly, you my use a picture as you want if you like it.

I hope that that you and all of you reading my writings forgive me my imperfect English.


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## JensLarsen (Mar 14, 2007)

*Isolation*

Sorry about your lost bees, it is a drag to have to start over.

Wojtek made a excellent description on what goes on with moisture inside a hive during winter.

I live on the west coast of Sweden and our winters are quite long but temperatures around freezing and above. The sea holds the air moist and nicely above freezing. Things here rust a lot more than in other places in the country. Isolated hives are used to at least 90%. All modern gear is EPS-plastic which is superiour in almost all categories. Check them out at Swienty's. They are rock hard, density 90 gr/liter. Building foam is 20-50 gr/liter which is too soft.

So climate is a prime factor in condensation. I guess the cold, dry air where Mr Bush and Dennis Murrell live helps them a lot and that is why Dennis even consider inside condensation to be a asset.

Conclusions draw from Wojtek resoning and Swedish house building code is this:
- Best isolation on roof: I use min 50 mm EPS
- No transport of moist upwards: I use a plastic wapor barrier
- Sides better isolated than floor: min 20 mm EPS + thick paint

A ventilated, unisolated floor makes the moisture condensate there and then dry up during colder (yes, colder) days. A screened bottom does this.

Some pictures of my isolated TBH-Combo http://picasaweb.google.com/MrJensLarsen.
The wall EPS is glued to the inside and painted twice with a cheap latex paint so the bees, hopefully, does not eat it. The roof is a frame, 50 mm EPS and then roofing paper.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Wojtek - thanks for permission to use your photo. I look forward to seeing more when you have built your 'dream hive'!

JensLarsen - I agree with you about climate as a major factor and I don't think condensation is given anything like enough attention in modern hive design. My plan is to use open mesh floors in summer, covered in winter but with vents. I already put 50mm poly foam over the top bars. 

One question: where exactly do you put the vapour barrier?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

space bee said:


> As a newbie, what would be the best thing to do with the comb, honey, and boxes? I don't have any other hives. If I build new ones, I'd go with a different design, which most likely would include a different top bar length. Any thoughts?
> What should I be looking for to rule out any diseases?


You should be looking for an inspector. Where in Westchester Co. do you live? Saying that you are from Upstate NY is pretty vaige. A more specific description of your local could make a difference.

Why don't you just melt down the comb and start all over again like you did the first time?

Since most of the bees we work with, here in the U.S., other than the AHB perhaps, seem to prefer working vertically rather than horizontally why do you want to use a Top Bar Hive?


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

sqkcrk said:


> Since most of the bees we work with, here in the U.S., other than the AHB perhaps, seem to prefer working vertically rather than horizontally why do you want to use a Top Bar Hive?


And your evidence for that is what?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Since most of the bees we work with, here in the U.S., other than the AHB perhaps, seem to prefer working vertically rather than horizontally why do you want to use a Top Bar Hive?

And that observation is based on what? Have you tried a horizontal hive before? I don't really see that much difference.

Why would AHB prefer horizontal to vertical? I've never heard that observation before.


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## Wojtek (May 31, 2005)

"Since most of the bees we work with, here in the U.S., other than the AHB perhaps, seem to prefer working vertically rather than horizontally...."
Since "most", what kind of bees prefer to work horizontally? I think that you will find difficult to answer this question.
Yes, this is a nature of bees that they store surplus of honey in upper part of comb as a priority, then wherever they have a room. If you give them suddenly a room above their nest, lock the queen in lower box they are deceived and will fill this upper box with a surplus because they have no other space to use. This is not a natural for honey bees. In nature they start a nest in a highest point of cavity they selected for their home and have nothing above it to "prefer working vertically" 
This phenomenon was utilized on a mass scale very effectively for honey "fabrication" but this is not a nature of honey bees, and we already know that working against the nature for a long run proved to be catastrophic.
Are langstroths excellent or catastrophic?
Besides, is it still U.S.A. or already U.S. of some other "brethren".


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## space bee (Jan 16, 2006)

So do I just clean everything out and melt down the comb as sqkcrk suggested? Is honey from moldy comb usable?
And yes, I do like my tbh's


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Yes, but I would suggest washing off the mould and drying the comb before extracting.


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## space bee (Jan 16, 2006)

Thank you Buckbee. I would crush and strain (no extractor), so was wondering if that would be okay once the mold is off the comb?


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

If the comb is clean, I don't see why not.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> >Since most of the bees we work with, here in the U.S., other than the AHB perhaps, seem to prefer working vertically rather than horizontally why do you want to use a Top Bar Hive?
> 
> And that observation is based on what? Have you tried a horizontal hive before? I don't really see that much difference.
> 
> Why would AHB prefer horizontal to vertical? I've never heard that observation before.


Maybe my impressions are wrong, but don't bees work up and down? If confined to limited vertical space, but unlimited horizontal space will the bees continue making comb to a similar quantity as one used to see in the old photos in which the supers were well over the head of the beekeeper?

I don't know what AHB prefers and didn't mean to make it seem so, sorry. That's why I said "perhaps".


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Maybe my impressions are wrong, but don't bees work up and down?

Bees work towards where there is space.

>If confined to limited vertical space, but unlimited horizontal space will the bees continue making comb to a similar quantity as one used to see in the old photos in which the supers were well over the head of the beekeeper?

Sometimes, but only if the hive has a huge population of bees.

>I don't know what AHB prefers and didn't mean to make it seem so, sorry. That's why I said "perhaps".

I got the impression you were saying either African or Africanized bees worked horizontally better than European bees. I have never heard this before.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Me neither.


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## Aram (May 9, 2006)

How long are your bars and how long would you like them? I think the bar design you mailed me should solve the moisture problem. Sorry we didn't get together to build some. I started a few so I should have a couple ready for you really soon. I didn't cut the top bars yet so if you have a prefference let me know. I started a new thread with a link to my TBH building progress. All input is appreciated.

Another TBH Buildaalong


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