# 3 deep question



## rmdial (Jun 30, 2009)

I adopted the 3 deep method with my hives that came out of winter very healthy and strong. Most of what I have experienced is very positive with only a small downside. I like the resources these hives provide to help out other hives, make splits, or boost swarm hives quickly. Also, the amount of honey in these hives is amazing with most having three deeps and two supers full with maybe more added next week. Downside is the handling of frames and boxes can wear on me if working lots of these hives in a day.

I have also read about other advantages such as helping during winter months with more honey to feed on and providing thermal mass to keep warm.

Now my question. If I want to take honey from third deep while leaving plenty to over winter, am I threatening the hive because of the higher population needing more honey? Or is the population about the same since the queen only has so much room to lay since the third deep is full of honey frames?

All in all, I would highly recommend this approach being fully aware that there is always a price to be paid for whatever we do.

Thanks in advance.

Soapy


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Interesting question and one I can not answer out of experience. I have one hive in three deeps currently although I plan to winter it in two. Honey stored in the top deep will get used to boost other colonies. I had not thought to harvest it for me. My training has always been that honey stored in the brood nest is for the bees, if not in the hive that stored it than in another hive.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Taking some honey out of the top deep of a three deep hive should be no problem, how much do you want to take, all or just a few frames? How much flow do you have left out there in Idaho this season? If you are committed to using three deeps for wintering, how much honey you take is dependent on the questions I asked. You could always feed to make up for what you took, but is that what you want to do?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Andrew Dewey said:


> My training has always been that honey stored in the brood nest is for the bees, if not in the hive that stored it than in another hive.


It is a good idea to adhere to, even though I have been guilty of stealing it from there on occasion, if I do take brood nest honey I make sure that there is enough time for them to replace it from natural sources, or I feed.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Tim Ives winters in 3 deeps and says that the stores give the colony a head start brooding up in the spring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwI22divdiU


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

3 full deeps is alot of honey, 80-100lbs, perhaps that much is needed in northern indiana. In louisville 50-60lbs will do. They may winter better and build up quick in spring but won't that just escalate swarms. Somewhere there is a delicate balance. I never liked deep honey boxes because they are so **** heavy. 

Time ives must like extra work, theres no need for those stacks to be that tall in April, the top 3 boxes are less than a quarter full. Who wants to climb a later 8ft tall and pull 30+lb boxes off. And 10 frames per box, not 9??? Perhaps im missing something here and need more education on his methodology. 

Who is this guy?


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Soapy, I would take honey from the 3rd deep and extract it in a few weeks and put the extracted frames between 1st and 2nd box that way the queen can lay lots of eggs which will result lots of brood going into winter. You might have to feed due to large population but a hive going into winter with large pop. will make more brood earlier spring and larger populations for splitting and hives will collect honey earlier next year. The only downside is the mites have to really be under control and weight of hives need to be monitored. 

If you leave the hive the way it is you will have a smaller pop. going into winter and they wont need all the honey. 

As for now I would keep adding honey supers because after todays rain the star thistle(knapweed) will give your bees a good surge of August nectar.

I run all singles but if I were to winter here I would winter in 3 deeps with all Italian queens. Back before i would move my bees south, I have seen my bees with a few nice frames of brood in Jan. when its really cold. Just keep an extra super full of honey in your garage for each hive and toss it on late spring once the hives start really dropping weight. Hives wintered this way always make a very good honeysuckle and black locust crop.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

If you search Beesource for his name, you'll find a fairly contentious thread about Tim. He doesn't treat and doesn't feed sugar. He uses 3 deeps, if I've read him right, to have the resources to brood up early and take advantage of nectar flows that other beekeepers miss out on because they don't have a strong enough foraging force when the flow is on. He says he gets over 400 pounds from some of his hives, and has averaged an 8% winter mortality over the past several years. His 3 deeps are all brood nest, though the bees have room for lots of honey and pollen, so maybe less of a problem to lift.

He did have trouble with those massive hives swarming, but figured out how to manage the problem-- the supers are part of it. I found out about Tim through Randy Oliver, who visited Tim's yards when he was researching neonics. Tim's yards are in the middle of a soy and corn desert, set in small patches of woods between the fields, I understand.

I was pretty impressed with the first video I saw, of Tim unwrapping a 3 deep hive in mid March:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAk-ePNWQB8


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## Kirk Osborne (Oct 7, 2012)

In general, it is a good idea to leave that honey for the bees. This is especially true if you do not have a queen that manages the hive numbers well. I have done it before, but I have Carniolan Bees, which makes a difference. She will slow down production before winter and the bees will survive using a smaller cluster. 

I'd ask a beekeeper who is local to you, if at all possible. When in doubt, leave it alone.

Good luck!


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Thanks for the response and sorry to but in on this thread to you other folks. Very interesting. So he suppresses swarming by adding many more boxes than the bees would ever need at the time. I would love to see a swarm from one of these monster hives and the neighbors expression when it shows up at their house ;-) lol. Probably blocks out the sun like the movies! Or maybe they just send out normal size swarms...A video of a swarm would be great.

And hes right many of the early blooming ground cover (under canopy plants) and big trees flow can be exploited to full potential. 

I'll try this with one of my hives split in spring. Has 2 deeps and 1 medium filled, ready for another. I won't harvest anything and see what happens. I already pulled 3-4 supers on my other hives I may try it on one of them too. Keep all fall flow honey on. 

But i would still do 9 frame honey supers. Decapping 10 frame supers is a pain in the u know what. 

Thanks for the enlightenment!

Eric Burns


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Although I have never run a three deep brood chamber, I think that what would happen is that the queen will lay in a chimney up through all three boxes, in other words, the number of frames of brood in each box would be less than the number of frames in each box that don't have brood in them. At first, even to me, it would seem like a waste of space (broodwise), for example, why would you use three deep boxes for brood when the same total number of frames of brood will fit in two boxes? Well, I guess its because when a queen is given that much vertical space to lay, she will chimney upwards through the boxes and not lay side to side as much as she goes upward. Maybe there is an advantage with three deeps over two deeps in that it helps cut down on swarming, I don't know. I can surely see where there is an advantage to having three deeps for the extra storage space for winter food also, and possibly stronger colonies in spring that don't need our help.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

jmgi said:


> Maybe there is an advantage with three deeps over two deeps in that it helps cut down on swarming, I don't know. I can surely see where there is an advantage to having three deeps for the extra storage space for winter food also, and possibly stronger colonies in spring that don't need our help.


3 deeps is more likely to swarm come spring. More bees + more food + spring = swarm. The way he supresses the urge is to add far too many honey supers (unconfined room to grow). I still think those hives shoot off atleast 1 if not 2 swarms a year. Im gonna try wintering 2 hives with atleast 1 if not 2 honey supers this year. See what happens.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

I could argue thats not always the case. I see swarming in singles and doubles often times because doubles and singles could become pollen bound and the old queen will naturally want to swarm.

Three box setup might be a waste of brood space but the queen can roam all three boxes and they will have enough pollen stores to start brooding very early.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I would go to 3 deeps in a heartbeat if I knew that 90% of the queens would not lay in the honey supers without using an excluder.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I'm not sure, but I don't think Tim uses an excluder.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

rhaldridge said:


> I'm not sure, but I don't think Tim uses an excluder.


I'm going to need more witnesses than just Tim for me to go to 3 deeps.


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## Spinner (Jun 2, 2013)

Soapy, leave the honey alone - it's for the bees over winter and early spring. Feel free to take anything from supers, but leave anything in the three brood deeps alone. Of course, that's assuming you want the hive to take off nicely in the spring.


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## Walter Lawler (Apr 12, 2013)

jmgi said:


> I'm going to need more witnesses than just Tim for me to go to 3 deeps.


Here is another place to read about large treatment free management. Tim uses facebook mostly for his recording. The other is parker farms, Solomon Parker.

Walt

parkerfarms.blogspot.com interesting reading


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

ddoctor, I thought we were talking about using 3 deeps for brood nest, not being treatment free?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Location, location, location. In my area bees need minimal winter stores. Because of a lot of winter dieoff and shortage of boxes, my hives have not been growing into more than a single brood chamber. I am getting better crops on an excluded single brood chamber than a double. Less swarming, all the surplus pushed into the supers, not clogging the brood chamber.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

odfrank, interesting to hear you say that about single deeps with excluders, I experimented with the same this season although most of the hives were started out as purchased nucs this spring which I put into a single deep. I did have one or two swarms that I know for sure, but the majority seemed ok with just the one single deep. They definitely used the single much more efficiently as far as more brood area and less honey storage, which is what I was hoping would happen. I still question though whether a good queen is fulfilling her potential as an egg layer with just the single deep, my gut tells me no.


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## Kirk Osborne (Oct 7, 2012)

jmgi, that may be why Odfrank began his reply with "Location, Location, Location." 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. LOCATION MATTERS. In Wisconsin, a 1 deep will almost certainly starve during the winter months. I prefer 3 deeps... two will work for most, but 3 is nice insurance. In parts of Southern California, Florida, __________(fill in blank with warmer area) - they can thrive on 1 deep for brood. 

I'm not going to touch the honey in my 3 deeps, but that is for each beekeeper/bee-haver to decide on their own... it is the responsibility of the beekeeper to do what he can to insure the bees will survive. In post 11 you said that you've never tried 3 deeps. For someone with no experience in this area, you seem to offer a lot of opinion. 

Location matters, resources available matters, type of bee/ genetics matters, weather matters, chemicals and treatments used or not used matters, and equipment matters. Not all of these things are equal, but if a beekeeper from CA tells you he is using a single deep with an excluder, just trust him that it works there. Just because it works there doesn't mean it will work everywhere. I just trust that he's in a location and practicing methods which allow for it to work for him. Again - location, location, location... and all that other stuff.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Couldn't agree more about location....environment (climate) and forage (food) probably #1 factor. If it ain't there they arn't gonna get it. A few miles can make a big difference. My hives were moved this year and the honey harvest results were much better, although weather much better too.

I plan to try a 3 deep (well 2 deep 2 shallow hive) this year in Louisville. The shallows are just stored honey. The wind and winters are much different milder here than up north in the flat lands around the lakes. We'll see what happens!


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Kirk Osborne said:


> For someone with no experience in this area, you seem to offer a lot of opinion.


You need to go back and read what I said over again because you're getting me wrong. I clearly said that I had no experience with using 3 deeps for brood right from the start, at least I'm being honest about it. And then I proceeded to explain what I "think" would happen in a 3 deep hive as far how queens tend to lay with that much room, what I said is based on my observations over the years with using 2 deeps and smaller brood nests for sure, maybe not a perfect comparison, but nevertheless I am entitled to an opinion about the matter. Not saying that if anyone doesn't do it my way it's wrong.


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## rmdial (Jun 30, 2009)

Ok, here is what I have experienced.

1. No chimney effect in any boxes where queen has laid. I work hard at always moving brood down and where there is heavy brood, it is spread across the width of the box and not moving up in narrow band.

2. I have, so far, seen fewer signs of swarming in the three deeps than I have in seven years of using two deeps. Maybe the spring will prove me wrong.

3. Yes, that extra box adds a lot of weight to handle.

4. The resources I have had available throughout the spring and summer have been of great help in splitting, beefing up swarms and weaker hive, and starting cell builder boxes for grafted queen rearing.

5. In this region, No. Idaho, we leave the top box with 8-10 frames of capped honey in a two deep setup. I don't even count the honey around the brood in the lower box.

Again, this is something new I am trying and in no way think I know better or this is the way for everyone/everywhere. I thought long and hard about it over last winter and decided to give it a try. As of now with the short experience I have had with it, I will definitely continue. But as we all know, every new method poses it's own questions and decisions.

Thanks a million on all the responses and comments. You beeks always keep me thinking about how I can be a better beekeeper.

Soapy


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

rmdial, can you explain more about what you mean when you say you are always moving brood down? If it means what I think it does, I can understand why you would have brood concentrated or consolidated across whole boxes and not in a chimney effect, but maybe I'm misunderstanding. Thanks.


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## rmdial (Jun 30, 2009)

In our association classes and monthly meetings it is impressed upon us to move brood from the top brood chamber to the bottom every time we go into our hives for an inspection. This adds work but it is highly recommended and I follow this suggestion most of the time. So, any brood at any stage I find in the top deep, I move it down to the bottom and move non-brood frames up to have the bees do with them as they wish. 

So, in my explanation of not experiencing a chimney effect, I was trying to illustrate that I am seeing brood frames at almost all inspections and they were normally spread across the deeps and not in what I understand as a chimney pattern.

I am having trouble explaining it any better but I hope you get a picture of what I mean.

Thanks,


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

But you do regularly consolidate brood into the lowest box first, and then I would guess the next box up from that as you need room for more brood frames, so the way I am seeing it is you would never see a real chimney effect because of the way you are managing brood frames in a hive. In other words, if you never moved brood frames down and just left the brood nest alone, you might get the chimney effect I am talking about, but you are always managing the brood frames so you don't get that effect, it never really appears evidently, do you understand what I am getting at, or maybe we're just talking past each other somehow.


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## rmdial (Jun 30, 2009)

I do understand what you are saying and it is a very good point. So, if I manage my 3 deep hives like that then I do not get the chimney effect the way I might if not managed that way. But I will say that it seems to me the bees are very efficient in how the 3 deep hives are managed. Brood laid in a full pattern across the entire frame with honey in the corners, new comb being drawn across an entire frame, and honey/pollen being stored well. 

Again, I will repeat that this is only my experience in a short time frame and know full well I have not gone through a full season or more managing 3 deep hives. But for now I am continuing with this method.

Thanks again for you thoughts.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

rmdial, ok so we understand each other finally, whew! The chimney effect that I speak of is something that I have read about, experienced, and heard others talking about here on the forum, and I don't expect it will happen to every colony in multiple brood chamber arrangements, nor does it, but I have witnessed it enough with my bees over the years that I felt it is worth mentioning. Although I have never run three deep brood chambers, nor do I feel it is necessary for successful wintering in "most" of the northern states, I recognize that many do use them and have been advised to use them by their club or a mentor because their experience shows that it helps with wintering among other things. Consolidating your brood frames down frequently the way you do probably prevents you from ever seeing a chimneying broodnest happen, and could very well be what that management practice is trying to keep from happening along with other benefits. Although using three deeps does involve more equipment and lifting which is something that I do rank as an important thing, at least for me, I would say that if I were using three deeps I would seriously consider managing them the way you do, rather than letting the bees spread out the broodnest over three or more boxes.


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## Kirk Osborne (Oct 7, 2012)

I have not experienced the chimney effect... I haven't ever heard of it until this thread. 

My three deep hives have a honey-bridge and the queens consistently stay below. I've heard of queens going over the honey bridge before, but it isn't very common, so I'm not sure how this chimney thing works. In three deeps, the brood chamber (laying-area) is shaped like a giant egg. It looks that way in my two deep as well but it is much more pronounced in my 3 deeps. In my 3 deeps the "egg" is bigger and the queen stays busy filling it. Usually, 1 deep's worth of brood comb is empty (not counting the honey/pollen). I think this may contribute to reduced swarming urge in the bees. 

Swarming is reduced in 3 deeps for the first year. In Spring, I find the queen and place that box on the bottom. I still get swarms because it doesn't take long for the colony to build-up, if the queen is healthy. She, and the workers, have lots of stores to build with. If the bees are healthy, they will try to swarm - its just the way nature works. And I don't view swarmign as a bad thing, but thats for a different thread. After moving the queen box to the bottom, it doesn't take long before a new egg-shaped brood chamber is formed, surrounded by honey, and the ladies are at full steam ahead again.

If anyone is thinking about trying 3-Deeps, then I would strongly encourage you to do so. Maybe you'll find two deeps is better for you or your area, maybe three. Take a chance and experiment. As for me, as log as I live in this region, I see a future in threes.


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## rmdial (Jun 30, 2009)

Again, and I know I am being redundant, I tried this method more out of curiosity and the desire to have strong hives with lots of resources available for what ever I needed them for. No one in our association ever suggests this method because following all their other suggestions usually gets the bees up to speed to handle our winters if unforeseen disasters do not happen. I just tried it because it made sense to me and figured there was little downside.

Still learning and finding what works best for me and the girls.

Our association has a high number of commercial beekeepers that are very active and are glad to spend time helping us hobbyist. I will hear them talk occasionally about a third deep but I think that is extremely rare and only for those hives that do not migrate. Or they might split them at some time latter in the year as prep for almonds.

Anyway, thanks again for all the comments.


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## Kirk Osborne (Oct 7, 2012)

I've gotten some interesting private messages because of this thread... so here you go: A majority of users on these forums do put their opinions out there as fact. This can lead to some very bad advice for younger, less experienced beekeepers. I know 3-Deeps. It is what I do. I keep a two deep, just for a constant comparison. 

I am just trying to answer the questions and help a fellow beekeeper out - in an area that i know very well. Two deeps and one deeps - that's somone elses turf. All mediums? Thats someone elses too. I KNOW three deeps.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, and I'm not upset over the way this thread is going. If you read my words in an angry way, they will sound angry. I'm not angry... I couldn't be more relaxed, actually. - I'm trying to be informitive and helpful, while contributing to this forum. I am trying to sincerely help by sharing what I have experienced. rmdial asked a good 3-DEEP question and i tried to give him sound advise.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

So a dumb question from a newbee keeper :scratch:

Would there be any difference between the 3 deep method and say a 5 medium method. Yep I got the number and sizes of supers is different but just trying figure some things out before I go overboard. 3 deeps is about 27 inches tall and 4 or 5 mediums would be similar in size. 

Sorry about the question, but I have a weak mind that is worried about my weak back. Just trying to figure things out. Thanks


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## CajunBee (May 15, 2013)

marshmasterpat said:


> So a dumb question from a newbee keeper :scratch:
> 
> Would there be any difference between the 3 deep method and say a 5 medium method. Yep I got the number and sizes of supers is different but just trying figure some things out before I go overboard. 3 deeps is about 27 inches tall and 4 or 5 mediums would be similar in size.
> 
> Sorry about the question, but I have a weak mind that is worried about my weak back. Just trying to figure things out. Thanks


I spoke with Tim Ives about this same question, as I am using all 8-frame medium. His reply was "4 mediums should be a good base system. Once established don't touch any resources from the base system." Hope that helps.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

KIrk, when I corresponded with Tim Ives regarding his 3 deep system, he told me that he had some trouble with swarming when he first started with his system, but managed to solve it by supering (with lots of super) much earlier than he had customarily done it. If I read him right, he was staving off swarming by occupying the younger bees drawing wax.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

CajunBee said:


> I spoke with Tim Ives about this same question, as I am using all 8-frame medium. His reply was "4 mediums should be a good base system. Once established don't touch any resources from the base system." Hope that helps.


Tim uses 10 frame gear, so to get the same brood space from 8 frame equipment, I think you'd need 5.


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## CajunBee (May 15, 2013)

Just repeating what I was told, and yes, he is aware that I'm running all 8-frame equipment.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

From what I've read Tim adds a super to the bottom of the stack constantly to keep the young bees busy depleting their wax. I find 3 deeps more efficient for me, my best queen had brood in the middle 6 frames of the top box. The bottom box typically turns to solid pollen around mid August. The egg shape of brood is a great description. Sometimes I will move brood down to consolidate but it's more to move honey frames up to get capped. I've never had a queen that could probably lay 3 deep solid but we don't get super strong flows either.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Would there be any difference between the 3 deep method and say a 5 medium method. Yep I got the number and sizes of supers is different but just trying figure some things out before I go overboard. 3 deeps is about 27 inches tall and 4 or 5 mediums would be similar in size. 

The basic concept is the same. There are few minor differences in how the bees act. Also you need the math to get the number of boxes right. We'll start with the math:

3 10-frame mediums = 2 10-frame deeps. That means that 4-10 frame mediums is slightly less than 3 10-frame deeps.

2 8-frame mediums = 1 ten frame deep. That 6 8-frame mediums equals 3 10-frame deeps.

The basic concepts were laid out in the old ABC-XYZ of Bee Culture under the heading "Food Box"

More here:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm

But back to the differences (other than the size of the box). With mediums instead of deeps and moreso with eight frame mediums the bees move up and down between boxes more easily. A queen tends to hesitate to leave a 10-frame deep to lay in another deep or a medium. She does not hesitate to leave a medium to lay in a medium. Even less with an eight frame medium as she runs out of room in one box frequently and moving between boxes becomes normal to her. She is indecisive with a 10 frame deep because it is ALMOST big enough by itself for a brood nest. An eight frame medium is no where near big enough.

Personally I adjust the size the overwinter in to the cluster and the stores. A strong hive with a large cluster and a lot of stores might be in six 8-frame medium boxes. A small cluster with few stores (and especially a race that is frugal) might be in as little as one 8-frame box. And everything in between occurs as well.

The idea of having a lot of food available early in the year was expounded and preached by G.M. Doolittle as his "millions of honey at our house" plan.

"Very many, at the present time, seem to think that brood rearing can be made to forge ahead much faster by feeding the bees a teacupful of thin sweet every day than by any other method; but from many experiments along this line during the past thirty years I can only think this a mistaken idea, based on theory rather than on a practical solution of the matter by taking a certain number of colonies in the same apiary, feeding half of them while the other half are left "rich" in stores, as above, but without feeding and then comparing "notes" regarding each half, thus determining which is the better to go into the honey harvest...results show that the "millions of honey at our house" plan followed by what is to come hereafter, will outstrip any of the heretofore known stimulating plans by far in the race for bees in time for the harvest." --A Year's work in an Out Apiary, G.M. Doolittle.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I use 3 deep hives, minimum, often four, occasionally five, sometimes six if necessary, and I leave all wax filled boxes on the hives year round.

The chimney effect is really a red herring. Let us remember what a chimney is, it is a vertical nominally empty conduit through which a warmed fluid rises in relation to a cooler surrounding fluid. 

A hive is not an empty pipe, and depending on the temperature, the inside may or may not be warmer than the outside. But for the sake of argument, let's assume it is winter and the cluster is alive and producing heat on the inside. 

Let us look at one of my hives, consisting of five deeps, as an extreme case, with a full width 3/4" slot type entrance at the bottom and the top as I have done regularly. The cluster is relatively small to the overall volume of the hive, maybe a little larger than a basket ball. I can then assume that air is traveling relatively freely in the bottom and ostensibly out the top, and this can be seen by a slight indication of snow or frost on the hive being deferred from certain areas where the air is escaping. Thus, the cluster is not heating the hive as the heat cannot travel from the warm cluster to the walls of the hive without rising up and out of the hive. The walls of the hive provide no insulating value as the inside and the outside of the wall are functionally the same temperature.

Addressing the misconceptions, first, as I mentioned, the hive is not empty, an in fact has a great number of very effective baffles and objects which would slow any moving fluid, so the volume of air moving through is firstly necessarily limited under normal conditions. Second, bees do not heat the hive and if they were actually heating the extents of the hive, I would argue that the hive is too small, and condensation problems would be likely to develop, as I have seen evidence of in many double deep hives. Airflow reduces or eliminates condensation. Airflow does not chill the cluster unless it is excessive, and the survival of an exposed colony is evidence of that. The chimney effect is so insignificant as to be not worth mentioning. I come by these views by keeping taller hives with bigger upper and lower entrances than most anybody. I do not find any detriment in it at all, and in fact, I have lately eliminated the use of entrance reducers in the winter, finding them functionally unnecessary.

I am now developing my corresponding method for medium hives as I am now bringing them online. I believe 5 would be a good place to start.

Hmm, I have recently come into possession of a thermocouple reader. Perhaps I could purchase a long skinny thermocouple and do some fun experiments this next winter. I know someone else who has done such a project and came up with results consistent with what I have reported, but it would be good to do it myself.


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## Kirk Osborne (Oct 7, 2012)

I do not know you, Solomon Parker. But I just visited your website, and I already know that I like you.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Aw shucks. :gh:


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