# Treatment Free Queens



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Where do I get 'em?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

How many would you like? I could consider a special production run if the price were right. ;-)

But seriously though, I have been buying them from Don the fatbeeman. He occasionally uses essential oils and FGMO. $25 

I also ordered some this year from Zia Queenbee. They claim "Breeding stock has over-wintered at minimum two years with no commercial pharmaceutical applications..." $28

Michael Bush's website says he will be selling some of his next year. They will set you back $35-$40.


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## FarmerFrazier (Oct 12, 2010)

Kingfisher Apiaries sells queens, he is on the forum here.

Wolf Creek Apiaries (similar to fatbeeman) also sells queens $25
http://wolfcreekbees.com/


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Beautiful photos on that site.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Mark:

I have had great success with Carni's from http://www.fullbloomapiaries.com/

Nice northern raised treatment free queens


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What is it about these sources of queens that makes them so pricey?


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## slickbrightspear (Jan 9, 2009)

b weavers queens are untreated I believe


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> What is it about these sources of queens that makes them so pricey?


It's the market. If you sell out, you raise prices. If you have a surplus, you lower prices.

Well, either that or they have to make up for losses. ;-)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Just seems like if they weren't so pricey there would be more of them in use by more beekeepers, thereby increasing the number in use all over. No commercial operation that I know will spend that kind of money for a queen.

If I buy 100 queens for $15.00 each, every time one dies or is killed makes the live ones more expensive. A $25.00 or $35.00 queen would require moree work trying to maximize the acceptance rate.

Just my pov.

p.s. any land grant colleges working on this? treatment freenism and treatment free queens?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> If I buy 100 queens for $15.00 each, every time one dies or is killed makes the live ones more expensive. A $25.00 or $35.00 queen would require moree work trying to maximize the acceptance rate.


You didn't mention how many you would lose over the winter or how much money you would save not treating. We could come up with a Life-Cycle Cost Analysis.


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## olddrown (Oct 28, 2009)

7standsbeefarm.com VSH Queens $ 18.00 + shipping. No treatment
Thanks


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Cells aren't that pricey. They work pretty well.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

olddrown said:


> 7standsbeefarm.com VSH Queens $ 18.00 + shipping
> Thanks


I don't find any claims of being treatment free on this website.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WiredForStereo said:


> You didn't mention how many you would lose over the winter or how much money you would save not treating. We could come up with a Life-Cycle Cost Analysis.


I have no info or experience w/ those numbers. Do the producers give some sort of survivability gaurantee w/ their queens?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Not that I've seen. Do you keep detailed enough records to plot trends? Do you do experiments, you know, do one thing to one yard and another to another to see which works better? You could buy queens from one source for one yard and another for another and see which works out better. I wish I could try things on that scale.

If we had the average survivability of queens from several different producers, we could compare the costs of treating vs. losing hives to see the actual profitability. We could throw honey production, and/or hives available for pollination as well. I seriously doubt anybody does an analysis on that kind of scale. But I have been known to be wrong. ;-)


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

Tried a lot of that stock. Go with Bweaver if you want a decent queen.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Sol - why yes we keep the genetics recorded for each yard(where the bees originally came from), and for the year, for each hive. Do you really want to know what the number say?


Crazy Roland

SQKCRK - yell at me if I am too far off topic


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

BWeaver seems to be the model for how a commercial beekeeper could go chemical free. They did it by leaving a portion of their bees untreated and then using the survivors as breeders. (This is a very simplistic explanation and I am by no means an expert on BWeaver, see their website.) They did have a problem with hot bees for a few years, but they've cleared it up now they say.

I have investigated them before, and they have good stuff, but I'm concerned with the overwintering problems I've had with Georgia bees that using bees from further south of me might not be the best plan. At some point in the future, I would like to add some of their queens.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Roland said:


> Sol - why yes we keep the genetics recorded for each yard(where the bees originally came from), and for the year, for each hive. Do you really want to know what the number say?


Yes, I would love some numbers. I'm an engineer you know.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> What is it about these sources of queens that makes them so pricey?


Hi Mark,

Last year, we were happily selling virgins for $8....and will probably do the same this year.

Mated queens, however, offer some challenges. In our case, we have way more demand for the honey we produce than we can fill...and we get a very good price for the honey.

If I'm looking at a decent hive that I need to break up into mating nucs in order to supply mated queens, I have to look at the honey I am giving up. I can't justify (from a pure business perspective) giving up even a 20lb honey crop to get a dozen queens mated and sold for $25/each.

If we are going to sell mated queens, they are going to be costly. I'd prefer to sell virgins at a reasonable (or even low) price. If our customers end up demanding mated queens, they will cost.

deknow


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

B. Weaver. Mine have overwintered here in SE Missouri just fine.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

StevenG said:


> B. Weaver. Mine have overwintered here in SE Missouri just fine.


That is good to know, thanks.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> What is it about these sources of queens that makes them so pricey?



An old timer once told me "hay is always cheaper on the other end of the horse."
All kidding aside, if an operation is looking to expand, one could make more money leaving that queen to lay all season making lots of honey and brood to work with. One good honey crop and a pollination or two and you are talking real $$. Only sell her if it is really worth it. I would also add a lot of work and selection goes into the development of good bees.

"BWeaver seems to be the model for how a commercial beekeeper could go chemical free." WiredForStereo This could be true, but it does cause one to wonder why they one of the leading importers of Australian bees?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WiredForStereo said:


> Do you keep detailed enough records to plot trends? Do you do experiments, you know, do one thing to one yard and another to another to see which works better?...................................... I seriously doubt anybody does an analysis on that kind of scale. I imagine you might just think "I bought queens from so and so last year and I had an 81% survival rate over winter, I will buy from them again." But it's just my imagination.


Wired some of your opinions about other people are way off, you are letting your imagination run away with you. You are really showing you just don't have any remote conception how commercial operators work. We are not a bunch of ignorant yokels.

You offered varroa resistant queens for sale. You serious? To do that, you have to have varroa tolerant bees that don't keep dieing out, and be capable of storing enough surplus honey to make a business viable. 

Also you are under a complete misconception about how Beeweaver achieved their varroa tolerant bees. There was WAY more to it than just letting nearly everything die and breeding from the survivors. WAY more.

You and others are evaluating the cost of not treating by how many hives die. The main cost of not treating is lost honey production due to mite infested bees. Against that, what little honey treatment free people do get, can no doubt be marketed at a premium price, due to the shortage of it. But all up it would not be worth it for most. If it was, everybody would be doing it.

I've been getting told that beekeepers who treat spend so much time running around putting treatments in the hives, and spending so much money on chemicals, and I'm sure it's all true. Surely then there is a competitive advantage to not treating and the queens would be cheaper?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Where do treatment free queens ORIGINATE from? I have picked up, some how, that they were bred for.


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> Also you are under a complete misconception about how Beeweaver achieved their varroa tolerant bees. There was WAY more to it than just letting nearly everything die and breeding from the survivors. WAY more.


Please elaborate. I am interested to know how the Weavers pulled it off, considering this happened before the so-called resistant stocks were widely available. The consumer reports I have read about their bees are generally quite positive.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

I wish with all my heart I could send you 20-30 at a reasonable price, but I did not contact the Apiary inspection service before the first of this year so I cannot mail anything. GRRRR. Next year I will be out in force. I also plan on shipping nucs. 
Sqkck, do you raise queens? The cheapest alternative is to order a glenn queen or 2 and graft like a maniac.

mike


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

acbz said:


> Please elaborate. I am interested to know how the Weavers pulled it off, considering this happened before the so-called resistant stocks were widely available. The consumer reports I have read about their bees are generally quite positive.


OK, well saying how they "pulled it off", is more than I can be bothered putting in a post. It involved considerable skill and work and I don't feel like writing a book tonight.

But in brief they did not just stop treating and let nature take it's course. Proper scientific method was used, bees that had been bred by the likes of Dr Harbo in the Baton Rouge Bee Lab, for SMR traits were purchased along with other developed bees. This stuff just does not all happen by chance, nor is it easy.

If you look hard enough you'll find some of this on their own web site, and then get some key words and do some more searching. But reading threads like this, and the assumptions that are made, I realise some folks just got no idea what's involved in proper bee breeding, or in fact running any kind of beekeeping business. Which is OK, except when they think they know it all.

I would highly recommend some folks research some stuff I've mentioned, learning how bee breeding and development is REALLY done would change a few perspectives.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Oldtimer said:


> You offered varroa resistant queens for sale. You serious? To do that, you have to have varroa tolerant bees that don't keep dieing out, and be capable of storing enough surplus honey to make a business viable.
> 
> Also you are under a complete misconception about how Beeweaver achieved their varroa tolerant bees. There was WAY more to it than just letting nearly everything die and breeding from the survivors.


No, just so everyone is clear, I wasn't being serious. I think I put a smiley after that, did I forget the smiley? There was definitely a smiley, with a wink, the universal symbol for not being serious. Then I said something to the effect of "seriously though..." which is also a universal method for saying "whatever I just said, it wasn't serious."

I was reading off their website, they didn't write an encyclopedia about it.


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

The Weavers have been in business for a long time and have proven long term stock. Most of the other "treatment free" breeders you mentioned have only been around for a couple of years, and have relatively few hives. This does not denote real resistance. Weaver had the Smart (sic) bees for many years, which were good, and then those evolved into what they have now. Many beeks here in the south and west have strong strains and have been treatment free for many years. Lusby, Weaver, Round Rock, Baldwin, etc. These are larger producers with many hives. Ask the producer how many hives they have and how long they have been treatment free. Ask around here if in doubt. There is a lot of smoke out there....cough....


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## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

Viejito, (Old Timer in Spanish)

Wise you are, I have chosen to just listen and keep the advice, only from those of you that really have experience that surpasses a few years or a few dozen hives. 
Randy Oliver, during a conference he gave in Santa Fe said; “Ask for advice, and only the new comers, pretending they know it all, will be willing to give you a single line answer”


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> I wish with all my heart I could send you 20-30 at a reasonable price, but I did not contact the Apiary inspection service before the first of this year so I cannot mail anything. GRRRR. Next year I will be out in force. I also plan on shipping nucs.
> Sqkck, do you raise queens? The cheapest alternative is to order a glenn queen or 2 and graft like a maniac.
> 
> mike


Thanks Mike. I have a hard time reading the newspaper, let alone graft. I have done it in the past. Maybe I'll give it another try.

What does the Apiary Inspection Service do for you? Certify the Queens as Disease Free or something?


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Make me legal.....if I drop any bees in the mail bad things start happening to me. They inspect mainly to make sure that I am not sending any infested bees out of the state. 

mike


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Which we are greatful for. Thanks.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Viejito. I like that!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

mythomane said:


> The Weavers have been in business for a long time and have proven long term stock. Most of the other "treatment free" breeders you mentioned have only been around for a couple of years, and have relatively few hives. This does not denote real resistance.


I would tend to agree. But how long do you think it would take to create "real resistance?" Would ten years suffice? 15? What's a level of loss to varroa that denotes "real resistance?"


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If we had bees that could exist in a hive w/ varroa present, while producing a crop of honey of a good amount(relative term, i'm sure), and not having to use any mite controls, I would be satisfied w/ that. Call it resistance or tolerance or whatever. I doubt that I will live to see the day when this is actually established. I may be pessimistic on this matter. Varroa mites aren't good parasites on apis mellifera. They need to get their act together.

Had we absolutely never used chemical miticides in our colonies of bees, who would have adapted first, the mites or the bees? My vote is the mites. If they kept killing all of their hosts, they would either have had to find a different host to feed on or become more parasite like and stop killing their Honeybee hosts.


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

WiredForStereo said:


> I would tend to agree. But how long do you think it would take to create "real resistance?" Would ten years suffice? 15? What's a level of loss to varroa that denotes "real resistance?"


I do not know if you are plumbing the depths of Martin Buber's philosophy of the Real or what, but the idea here is that there has to be proven resistance over time. Find your comfort level. Mine is around 7+ years. I guess. 20 would be better! I factor in greatly, also WHO is selling me the bees. Is it Les Crowder, who has kept treatment free for 15 years, and who actually knows what he is doing, or some ******* in Burnscrew, Texas who has 12 hives in his backyard that he pulled out from under someones hot tub? Keep in mind also that Treatment Free does not equate with good. I could buy some Wilbanks/Mystery stock, get lucky for 3 years and not treat, and then advertise my bees as mite-resistant. That is the equivalent of what we have going on with many "suppliers" here.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

acbz said:


> Please elaborate. I am interested to know how the Weavers pulled it off, considering this happened before the so-called resistant stocks were widely available. The consumer reports I have read about their bees are generally quite positive.


First off, I need to say that I am in no way knocking Weaver. I am simply going to answer the question of "how resistant stocks are created".

There are actually three methods.

1st- the "easy way out" (and in my opinion, the wrong way"... interbreeding local breeds with resistant breeds such as primorsky... this seems to be the favorite method of the usda because it quickly answers the need to create resistant stock, however, it also displaces traits of a creature that has been adapted to an entirely different environment than that of our nation... these crosses can be hot (and later generations can get worse for several gens), it can ruin commercial operations that are used to the scheduled buildup of their native bees, and if can cause huge troubles down the road, as these new strains (not only at the breeding yards, but more so in the buyers bee yards) are in a state of limbo struggling to adapt to the new environment and thus they can develop new traits that may hurt an operation, especially if they are not breeders and do not know what to watch for and how to properly counter... ie.. excessive swarming that indeed helps to control mites populations, but can also cause you to miss flows...

2nd- is the method of breeding from resistant colonies within an operation and removing the rest... this is effective, however, it does limit the number of lineages allowed in the gene pool and if not carefully and properly performed, this can cause ever more troubles than interbreeding for resistances... inbred stocks do not give warnings off their downward spirals and an operation can suddenly find itself with a need to replace every queen in every apiary, not to mention the damages that it can cause those that have purchased stock from them... my father used to say "its better to make a mistake with 20 hives on an island and learn from it, than to make the same mistake in the open gene pool and force the industry to learn from the mistake through time"... the misuse of this method is one of the main culprits in our nations lowered production averages, higher winter losses, and lowered queen quality...

3rd- is to simply keep colonies healthy and allow them to naturally develop their resistances... this takes time, thousands of hives, and extremely precise record keeping, followed by good bee keeping practices, an in-depth understanding of honey bee genetics, and a deep devotion to your goal with a willingness to do what is necessary to make it happen the right way, not the "quick" way... the simple truth that seems to baffle so many is the "ALL HONEY BEES WILL DEVELOP A RESISTANCE TO MITES IF ALLOWED TO SURVIVE THEM FOR ENOUGH GENERATIONS"... before you start typing your hate mail, take a deep breath and understand that this is not a "treatment vs non-treatment" statement, and I am NOT the enemy of your bees or of any bee keeper... this is just the way things are... you can take the "short cuts" and see where you end up, or you can stick with the same stocks that have been selected from for hundreds of years to suit our industries needs as well as our environment and in time, you will reach resistance levels that match the others yet still maintain the productivity and the naturally acclimated stock.

Ok, now you can start typing your hate mail... but address it to God and Science... I am just trying to help, not to fight, and my time is terribly limited, so do not expect any response from me if you just feel an urge to fight.

Hope this helps.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

mythomane said:


> or some ******* in Burnscrew, Texas who has 12 hives in his backyard that he pulled out from under someones hot tub?


Hope you are not talking about me If you are, please come inspect my bees and meet me in person before you cast any judgements.

I try not to claim this or that or the other thing. I sell you what I advertise. VSH are VSH. Buckfasts are Buckfasts. I test my bees for mites, and I pay attention to what is going on. I do not offer feral stock for the reason that is quoted...all my feral stock has much higher mite levels than my breeders. I only run 18 hives right now. Some people think I am feeding the 5000 with this small of number of hives....I understand that. I have already made 50+ cells this year, and the majority still have RJ in them when hatched. I feed everybody well and do what the books say "works" and they turn out good!
Don't knock somebody with less hives than you have!



Mike 
Kingfisher Apiaries


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Mike,

I for one am glad to see that you are as devoted to bee keeping as you are at your age... keep it up and stick with what you see "working" as you go... I see you being a great producer in the near future... 

the FUTURE is what we ALL should be focussing on when breeding and selecting our stocks...


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> the FUTURE is what we ALL should be focussing on when breeding and selecting our stocks...


:applause:


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> What does the Apiary Inspection Service do for you?


Ask a lot of questions about how to make their bees as good as ours... lol. :lpf::lpf::lpf:

All joking aside, they do serve a good purpose... the main thing that people seem to get confused about is that they are their to make sure that people are not spreading the PESTS AND DISEASES, not to see if your "doing things the right way"... in most cases, they are the ones pressing for people to treat because they are trying to prevent the spread of pests and diseases from one place to another... I keep getting questions from people asking what the inspectors will be looking for, and I always answer the same thing..."Dead bees, Live pests, and the diseases that come in-between"... 

Sadly, most inspectors are not truly experienced in commercial bee keeping and are more limited to the knowledge derived from books, seminars, association meetings, and their own few hives... this lack of understanding has caused issues between the inspectors and commercial operations in the past, mainly in the form of timing, ie... inspectors just showing up in the middle of the rush period for a big operation and wanting to go to each yard... you can imagine what kind of response that gets them. Lol. If you go back far enough in the ABJ, there is actually an article from my father about that very issue, but he was the "move out of my way, or I will move you" kind of guy, ESPECIALLY during the spring rush. Lol. Their jobs are important to our industry, and hopefully they will begin to be viewed more as a help than a pain... my inspectors are great, they know when to come, and they know that while we are in the yards anyway, they are gonna lend a hand, get an ear full, and enjoy cold glasses of tea with us when we are done. Lol.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Mark, you asked where to get treatment free queens, but (naturally) you are balking at the price.
My view on this- I see a trend happening where people are going to more and more often be breeding their own supply of queens. This due to many reasons: high losses from disease, mites etc...skyrocketing price of gas and shipping...wanting bees that are more acclimatized to our own areas....the trend towards consumers and hobbiests demanding more chemical-free bees and honey....just to name a few reasons.
I'm a hobbiest and I'll be experimenting with making more queens and nucs for myself this year. I want to stop having to buy bees from other folks. I think a LOT of BKs both big and small are seriously considering raising thier own queens and bees- folks who simply bought packages before. I hear hobbiests talk constantly about not wanting to buy packages, about wanting to raise their own- I didn't hear them talking much about that 2 years ago.

To connect back on the topic though- people like me don't mind paying a high price for treatment free queens because we plan/hope to raise more queens from those. We are glad to pay _whatever_ for some good stock to start out with. If a commercial BK has to buy 500 queens every year then yeah the price is a huge factor. But if one has to buy 20 queens and uses them to raise more queens for years to come, then the price is not such an issue.

Who actually *buys* the most queens?- that would be interesting to know. We all know there are many more hobbiest and small BK out there than commercial ones. But commercial BK buy everything in larger quantities. So *overall*, who is buying the most queens? If the answer is hobbiests, then this explains the higher price of treatment free queens. Just as people willingly pay more in the store for 'organic' honey.

I suspect the longterm story however, is that hobbiests who buy treatment free bees are the very hobbiests who are most interested in raising their own queens and bees in the future. So like me, they are more than willing to pay more for good non-treated stock to start with.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> If we had bees that could exist in a hive w/ varroa present, while producing a crop of honey of a good amount(relative term, i'm sure), and not having to use any mite controls, I would be satisfied w/ that.


Mark,

Isn't overwintering also part of that equation? Some hives crash during the summer and some give a good crop and then crash/die overwinter. Otherwise, HH's system of buying packages every spring would make mite resistance irrelevant to the honey producer, assuming you can buy more packages every spring.

Tom


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

In our operation..

about 72% go to retailers and large commercial operations (orders of 100 - 2,000)...
about 14% go to Universities and researchers...
about 11% go to "Side-liners" or small commercial operations (100 hives or less - mostly breeders)...
about 3% go to hobbiest (20 hives or less)...

Thats just the stats, not saying that any one group is less important than another... ALL bee keepers whether they have 1 hive or 20,000 are helpful to our industry... These figures are based on last seasons reports (a little over 80,000 queens total)... but keep in mind that we just started offering queens to the general public last season, so these figures may change in time, but so far they seem to be following the same pattern.

Hobbiest do out number commercial beeks by at least 10-1, but you have to consider that the average number of hives in the commercial operations greatly out numbers the average number of hives kept by hobbiests... If I had to guess, I would say that the commercial hives out number hobby hives by around 2,000-1... When you look at it from that prospective, the hobbiest are buying their fair share of queens... It may be helpful to note also that most commercial operations have their own breeding operations within them as well... their purchased queens are mainly for adding lineages to their lines...

Hope this helps!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, there are a number of other traits that would be nice to have also. Mite resistance/tolerance w/out Hygenic Behavior would be a trade off. Or other characteristics.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

rrussell6870 said:


> In our operation..
> 
> [snip]
> 
> about 3% go to hobbiest (20 hives or less)...


To get an accurate percent of queens purchased by breeders, one would need sales data from ALL queen producers. There are many that sell most, if not all their queens to the hobbiest.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

rrussell6870 said:


> about 72% go to retailers and large commercial operations (orders of 100 - 2,000)...


Ah but how many of those sold to retailers are actually then being resold by the retailers to hobbiests? Like Betterbee- retailers who buy large numbers of packages and in turn sells them to small BK and hobbiests. So though there's a middleman, a lot of those bees are _really_ being sold to small keepers and hobbiests.



> Hobbiest do out number commercial beeks by at least 10-1, but you have to consider that the average number of hives in the commercial operations greatly out numbers the average number of hives kept by hobbiests... If I had to guess, I would say that the commercial hives out number hobby hives by around 2,000-1...


I may well be confused, but when you compare 'average number of hives owned', that is very different from comparing total hives existing altogether. Naturally a large commercial BK has 100 or 1000 times as many hives as a hobbiest, BUT...
I've read that the TOTAL number of hives kept in the US is mostly by hobbiests and small beekeepers. Even though the average commercial bk may have 1000 hives and the average hobbiest may have 3-5 hives....there are far more hives _altogether_ in the US owned by small bk or hobbiests than the number of total hives owned by large commercial operations. At least this is what I have read- or is this not true? 
And these people are buying a 'lot' of queens and bees. They are, I suspect, also the very people most passionately interested in raising treatment/chemical-free bees. So that's a big market right there, and getting bigger every year as more and more people from all walks of life get interested in raising their own food and keeping bees and chickens, etc. Yikes, I myself have 3 friends I know are are starting up hives for the first time this very year in my area- people who never would have thought of keeping bees 5 years ago. Sure, some of them won't have bees 5 years from now, but I bet at least 1 of them will have more hives 5 yrs from now than they started with. This is going on all over the country.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

That's why I said "in our operation"... 

In the same respect, I do not know of any breeders that raise over a thousand queens per season that ONLY sell to hobbiests... 

It would be interesting to find a way to get a better idea of percentages across the nation...


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

rrussell6870 said:


> That's why I said "in our operation"...
> 
> In the same respect, I do not know of any breeders that raise over a thousand queens per season that ONLY sell to hobbiests...


Yes, I understand both your points. 



> It would be interesting to find a way to get a better idea of percentages across the nation...


Sure would!


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

We were just discussing this very thing over coffee a few nights ago... omie makes a valid point about the retailers, but I think the average hives per commercial operation may be outdated... just as the hobbiests are getting more into bees, the commercial operations have expanded greatly too... the average number of hives owned by commercial operations that I personally know is somewhere around 8,200... the increase has only been happening over the last few years as genetics are improving and singles are becoming more popular for early pollenation, which then get turned into doubles, split, turned back into doubles for winter, then split again early in the pollenation season to go to the fields as singles... the commercial operations have also seen an increase from ten years ago as they have gotten more inclined to only treat hives that needed it... their losses are minimal and genetics are strong... so more hobbiests are "replacing" rather than expanding...

An interesting side note is that most of the packages and nucs sold to the hobbiests are from the commercial operations, sold through retailers as a way to keep from over-expanding their capabilities...

Thanks for the conversation Omie, its cold here today, so I am stuck waiting on some sunshine and I have sure missed chatting on the forums. 

And luckily, no one has blasted me yet for my earlier post about breeding for resistances. :applause:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rrussell6870 said:


> And luckily, no one has blasted me yet for my earlier post about breeding for resistances. :applause:


 Let me see what I can do about that.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

:doh:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rrussell6870 said:


> ... the simple truth that seems to baffle so many is the "ALL HONEY BEES WILL DEVELOP A RESISTANCE TO MITES IF ALLOWED TO SURVIVE THEM FOR ENOUGH GENERATIONS"...
> 
> Ok, now you can start typing your hate mail... but address it to God and Science... I am just trying to help, not to fight, and my time is terribly limited, so do not expect any response from me if you just feel an urge to fight.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Anyone who is familiiar w/ Opposite World will understand what I mean when I say that this is the dumbest thing rrussell has ever posted.

 How's that rrussell? Satisfied? 

You must like consonants. I notice all of yours are dbled.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Mark, have you joined my site yet? I had hoped you would from the beginning if for nothing else but to further our literacy and pick some fights. Lol. :lookout:
(Yes, I have noticed your sneaky way of asking questions to get debates going...)

Thanks for the kind words BTW.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

slickbrightspear said:


> b weavers queens are untreated I believe


Yes, BeeWeaver bees are untreated.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rrussell6870 said:


> Mark, have you joined my site yet?
> 
> Thanks for the kind words BTW.


Yup, just did. I hope Barry doesn't excommunicate me for doing so.

Yer welcome. What you said made so much sense you had to ask for negative feed back. Anyone who would argue w/ you sure had better know what they are talking about.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

rrussell6870 said:


> Mark....I have noticed your sneaky way of asking questions to get debates going...)


Yeah, I wondered that too- is Mark actually even _interested_ in getting treatment free queens? He doesn't seem too anxious. :lookout: 



> ... the commercial operations have also seen an increase from ten years ago as they have gotten more inclined to only treat hives that needed it... their losses are minimal and genetics are strong... so more hobbiests are "replacing" rather than expanding...
> An interesting side note is that most of the packages and nucs sold to the hobbiests are from the commercial operations, sold through retailers as a way to keep from over-expanding their capabilities...


Now something that will come into play over the next few years as hobbiests and small BK start raising more and more of their own stock- breeding queens and splitting- what you will see is that 'official sales' of bees to that group may not increase proportionately to the growth of people in that group. 

Why?- because people like me will be multiplying their own bees and selling or even giving away queens and nucs to their friends who have gotten into BKing. Already there are 5 friends in my town who plan to help each other out with frames of brood or splits when one of us loses too many hives, starting next year. Three years ago only one of those 5 people had bees. That's one little group of friends in my tiny town...multiply this effect throughout the entire country. Look at all the new bee clubs forming everywhere- even in the cities.
What you will see is much like when gardeners start saving and sharing their heirloom veg seeds and giving each other raspberry root cuttings...only it will be frames of brood or queen cells rather than raspberry rootstock cuttings. It's an under-the-radar people's movement, and it just won't show up on the official package sales spreadsheets.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Omie said:


> Yeah, I wondered that too- is Mark actually even _interested_ in getting treatment free queens? He doesn't seem too anxious. :lookout:


Hmm, time will tell. At one time I was interested in Draft Horses. Even owned a few and took lessons and joined a club. All while keeping bees. So, ya never know where my interests will take me.

Who started this dang Thread anyway? Prolly one a those dang commercial guys.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Lol. Thanks and thanks! Not sure why, but everytime I say that, people avoid it like the plague... seems more like people want to either ne on one side or the other... what ever happened to "sitting on the fence"? I try to tell people to keep themselves "flexible" like my dad used to say..."dead bees can't learn anything, but empty boxes will sure teach the keeper"... lol. Another old beekeeper once said, "if the mites were here by nature, nature would have already made a way for the bees to get around them, but since the mites are the invaders, allowing them to defeat colonies only makes there presence stronger"... that was followed by one of my favorite quotes..."what if it were mange on cats and dogs instead of mites on bees? Would it be considered "natural" to just let everyone's pets die and breed whatever was left behind?" With bees we have the advantage of being able to multiply the number of generations that would take other creatures much longer to reach... it takes time and devotion, but the end result is that you keep the hundreds of years of selective breeding as well as the multiple lineages that would have been lost otherwise, and the only thing you do not keep is the losses...

Just makes sense...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Omie,

Very good point! I love your forward thinking with a subtle "underground revolution" appeal!  

Actually, that sort of thing has happened before on premite times (ugh.. makes me feel old saying that..)... bee keeping was becoming more and more common amongst hobbiests, then breeding took off too... the trouble was in the education... breeding methods were taught, but not genetic theory, thus people grafted from the strongest hive that came out of winter and requeened all of their colonies with the sisters each season... the guy (or gal) with the strongest hive and best cell take ended up sharing their queens with everyone in the area around them... of course this caused major problems after about 6 yrs as the inbreeding started to show its effects, and many people turned away from bee keeping as a result... the inbred colonies became susceptible to tm and many diseases that had been bred away in earlier days... today this period is the reason that you see bees from certain regions being somewhat different from others even if the environments are alike... its due to the lack of outer lineages within the area vs the number of colonies that the area has within it... as a result of the "poor quality" that bees began to show (not to mention lack of colonies for agricultural use), people began to ship in bees from the global market... you know what happened next. Lol.

Today education is much better, there are answers just a click away, and HOPEFULLY there are enough people that are willing to step up and help other beeks out like your friends are... I would love to see the hobby community take off again, we have always been concerned that without new hobbiest, there would be no future commercialists.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Would you stop making sense please, it's subversive.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Roland said:


> Sol - why yes we keep the genetics recorded for each yard(where the bees originally came from), and for the year, for each hive. Do you really want to know what the number say?
> 
> 
> Crazy Roland
> ...


I DO!! I DO!! You said to yell. What do the numbers say?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WiredForStereo said:


> Yes, I would love some numbers. I'm an engineer you know.


I wanna see the Certificate. The original. I don't believe it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> Hi Mark,
> Mated queens, however, offer some challenges. In our case, we have way more demand for the honey we produce than we can fill...and we get a very good price for the honey.
> deknow


I don't begrudge anyone what they sell their queens or honey for. Get what you can, otherwise you are leaving money on the table.

Apparently you aren't charging enuf for your honey.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Where do treatment free queens ORIGINATE from? I have picked up, some how, that they were bred for.


Any answer to this question? Here I don't mean where does one buy them.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Any answer to this question? Here I don't mean where does one buy them.


Let me venture a guess. At some point they came from Treated bees.

Dan


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Resistances to threats are developed from exposure to the stresses of the threat over many generations... the stress is communicated genetically from one generation to the next until the line has developed a resistance(s) that effectively lower the stress... 

But to directly answer your question, can you define "treatment free"? 

There are a few different versions... the one that I hear most about is: queens produced from colonies that have not been treated... as you probably know, I buy a LOT of queens from everywhere for testing and addition to my lineages... sadly, mostly what I see from these queens is dwv...

What I consider treatment free queens are simply queens that produce bees that have certain behaviors that allow you to keep the hive in "healthy" condition without having to treat... these queens come from one of the three methods that I mentioned WAY earlier... lol. However, I think that I may have left out one more issue that is common amongst lines that are developed via the "quick" methods... OVER STRESSING... as I have said a million times, vsh is a great way to resist mites... but too much is too much, and one can lose the true production potential of their bees... swarming is also a great way to resist mite build ups via breaking the brood cycle... and of course swarming is also a huge hamper on production... when developing a truly resistant line, it is important to keep the colonies as healthy as possible so that the stress is minimal... yes, this makes it take longer, and you have to work harder... but if you allow the colonies to be stressed too greatly by the mites, they will become overly resistant... take primorsky for instance, multiple swarms per season, heavily vsh... but they are also adapted to frigid climate of the primorsky region, so they over store honey here where it is available much longer... as time progresses, they will adapt to this environment as well... but it took over 100 years to make them the way they are, and until then, they are producing drones that mate with our queens and pass on the hoarding and swarming traits... vsh is a recessive trait... so both queen and drone must carry it in order to pass it on... keep in mind that one egg and one sperm equals one bee... so the number of vsh drones that a vsh queen mates with will determine how many vsh workers will be in the colony.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No, I don't think I'm qualified to define that term.

Treatment free, mite resistant, mite tolerant, whatever, that's the sort of thing I'm trying to find the origination of. The folks that sell them must have gotten them from somewhere to begin w/. Did they all start w/ "feral" queens? Or what?

"Feral" in quotes because that term needs defining too. Because feral bees come from managed colonies. So what's the dif? Not that I really want to get into that hornet's nest.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> Because feral bees come from managed colonies.


There's no way you can know that with any degree of certainty.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes there is. Bees are not native to the US.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Agreed. Lol. Well, I can't comment on others (although I am literally having to bite my tongue!), but ours were developed through the method of treating only when necessary and only the colonies that needed it... each and every strain picked up vsh traits, slowly but surely, and we lessened the treatments as the traits grew more effective until we were finally able to stop treating... now here is the swift kick in the rear that knocks everyone of off their pedestal... resistances alone will not save every hive, under every condition... what I mean is that excessive mites in an apiary can overwhelm even the best genetics, as can any form of predation... so deciding to go "cold turkey" can be disastrous... I always recommend people to either wait it out, or completely requeen everything after an effective treatment... then just use good management practices to keep the healthiest bees that you can.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Oldtimer said:


> Yes there is. Bees are not native to the US.


So there are no feral horses? Feral children? Feral dogs?

In fact, if you check the actual definition of feral:

feral 
1. wild, untamed, especially of domesticated animals having returned to the wild

There's no guarantee they came from managed colonies. They may be set back a hundred generations from a hive.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

WiredForStereo said:


> There's no way you can know that with any degree of certainty.


And even if they have been "wild" for long enough to be called "feral" there has to be some interbreeding with managed colonies.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WiredForStereo said:


> There's no way you can know that with any degree of certainty.


Then where do they come from? I'd like to know.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

WiredForStereo said:


> So there are no feral horses? Feral children? Feral dogs?
> (....)
> There's no guarantee they came from managed colonies. They may be set back a hundred generations from a hive.


I am also sure that there are no North American feral children or dogs that are 100 generations wild, but it is possible for a tiny population of horse to have that history, but i think it stretches the bounds of probability to assume they have had no interbreeding with escaped domesticated populations.

Dan


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WiredForStereo said:


> So there are no feral horses? Feral children? Feral dogs?
> 
> In fact, if you check the actual definition of feral:
> 
> ...


Do you honestly believe that there is no difference between mammals and insects?
Do you actually believe that honeybees are domesticated animals? As opposed to wild animals that we have learned to manage? We certainly haven't tamed them in any real sense of the word.

"set back a hundred generations from a hive"? How long is that in years, in your mind?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I made my case.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Oldtimer said:


> Bees are not native to the US.


Not so sure. There have been recent fossil findings that suggest the opposite is true. I know it's posted here somewhere.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

There are fossils of horses too. That doesn't make them the same animals as we ride today.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Bees can't be considered in the same classes as horses, dogs, or children! Lol. A colony in the wild has no genetic differences from that of a colony I a box, bees cannot be trained, won't protect you from danger, or befriend you... they are no more aggressive in the wild than they are in the box, so long as the predation levels are equal... they are insects and as such, they defeat the common rules of genetics, behavioral science, and domestication... they are simply driven by instinct, we breed them to boast certain traits that better suit our needs, thus they are a form of livestock... fences, shelters, and feeding cannot be used in their classification due to the fact that they are insects...(and actually, there are many types of "kept" creatures that do not meet the "criteria" of livestock, yet are still classified as such...

All bees in the US came from colonies that were kept... the term "feral" is used too loosely... I feel its best to use the terms "unmanaged", "swarm", or even "wild" for extreme cases... it saves a lot of confusion...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

RiodeLobo said:


> but i think it stretches the bounds of probability to assume they have had no interbreeding with escaped domesticated populations.
> Dan


In fact, what wild horses that do exist in North America originated from ones brought to this country by Spanish and English Colonists. Not from fossils.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I don't care what has been posted here. I'm going to believe what I ~know~ to be true.
There were/are no native honey bees to North America.
There were/are no native equines to North America.
There were/are no native bovines to North America.
The only native Humans to North America is the American Indian.
AND NOBODY ALIVE CAN PROVE ANY DIFFERIENT.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> There are fossils of horses too. That doesn't make them the same animals as we ride today.


Actually, it was recently discovered that ancient horses originated in north America... they were about four feet tall. Lol. They crossed the land bridge during the ice age and mixed with the larger horses that originated in Africa... creates a whole new set of theories about how they got here... assuming that all live began in Africa... which I am partial to believing... but that would take us WAY off topic.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Do you guys ever sleep?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Nice to see you posting again valleyman. Lol.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> In fact, what wild horses that do exist in North America originated from ones brought to this country by Spanish and English Colonists. Not from fossils.


You are absolutely correct, and the purest descendants of those escaped or released Spanish horses reside in small and distinct locations in the Western US. My point was that they were domesticated, became feral, and are still present, however the vast majority of the population of "feral" horses are just mutts due to the interbreeding of recently released or escaped livestock. Even in populations that are more "pure" such as the Kiger mustangs there is bound to be some interbreeding. 

While the comparison of a horse and a bee is poor as far as biology, the history of the population seems apt. 

It just reinforces the argument that the "feral" bees, like horses, were introduced and some became feral, and that "feral" population actively interbreeds with the corresponding population of domesticated/kept creatures.

The conclusion for me is that there is little point in drawing a line between "feral" and escaped bees. They are the same thing over time.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

The most recent discovery that I know of simply linked all bees back to an African origin instead of an Asian one... I know, I know, we already knew that all life originated in Africa, but this was at least more proof of that... I would love to see something new...


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

camero7 said:


> Mark:
> I have had great success with Carni's from http://www.fullbloomapiaries.com/
> Nice northern raised treatment free queens


They say on their site that they treat for mites 'only when necessary' with formic acid and thymol.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

From their site:
_We have been running our breeder colonies, nucs, and mating nucs untreated. However, we will be monitoring mite and nosema infections levels in these colonies this year and treating only when necessary._

Sounds like they may have some issues. The queens I've ordered from him were treatment free, I admire his honesty and will continue to use him.


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