# First time dusting with powdered sugar - advice appreciated



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

We had a nice warm today in the high 60s, and so I took advantage of the break in the rain to perfrom my first powdered sugar dusting. Here is what I found when I checked the bottom boards 1 hour after dusting:

Hive #1 -double deep (failing and showing signs of DWV): at least 10 mites per square inch over an area of at least 5" x 10" - at least 500 mites

Hive #2 - single deep: about 5 mites per square inch over an area no more than 5" x 10" - about 250 mites

Hive #3 - single deep: exactly 30 mites on the entire bottom board

Nuc #4 - 5 medium frames: exactly 7 mites on the entire bottom board


Hives #1 and #2 are clearly in trouble with mites and my main question at the moment is if there is any reason I should not repeat the powdered sugar treatment on these two hives again since tomorrow is supposed to be the last sunny day for the next week...

For Hive #3 and the Nuc, seems like they are in a less critical situation and so I was planning to wait at least another week before dusting again.

Overall, the hives all seemed to deal with the powdered sugar suprisingly well. Bees flopping aound in the sugar and white powdered bees fying out of the entrance right after I completed the dusting, but an hour later all appeared to be back to normal as far as activity outside of the hive and the only evidence that I had dusted an hour earlier were the white lines of sugar on the bottom board below the screen with the struggling brown dots in them...

Appreciate anyone's advice as to how frequently this treatment can be applied to a hive with a serious infestation.


-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Decided to take advantage of the good weather and redusted this afternoon.

Mite count one hour after dusting was 160 for Hive #1 (failing hive) - down from over 500 yesterday!

Mite count an hour after dusting was also 160 for Hive #2 - down from about 250 yesterday.

Also redusted Hive #3 and the count after an hour was 80 - up from 30 yesterday.

I did not detect any ill effects from dusting on two consecutive days and since the queen appears to still be laying in all of my hives (I inspected and each hive had 4 or 5 frames of brood, much of it open and some obviously very young), I plan to dust every day it is warm and dry until I see consecutive mite counts down in the low teens.

Has anyone else done this? Is there any reason not to do it? Any inputs appreciated.

-fafrd


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Our state beekeepers meeting had a speaker from Florida that said when a colony has brood it must be dusted every 3 days for 21 days (7 dustings) to rid it of varroa.


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## metrosean (Jan 10, 2006)

I read somewhere that when dusting with powder sugar you should do it once a week for three consecutive weeks. That is what I did this month and there was a noticeable drop in mites. I used one cup for every super with broad. Good luck


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

You should ask on this forum for beekeepers who used sugar as a mite treatment and didn’t lost there bees in the long run. 
More than 200 already checked your thread and NOT ONE came up with real honest answers and instructions how to do it saving the hive with “sugar dusting”.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

AR Beekeeper, metrosean,

thanks for your inputs. Yes, I know the recommended interval is 3-7 days for a total of 21 consecutive days to catch all of the mites hiding in the capped brood.

My question was a different one - is there any reason not to do it more frequently like every day (other than the extra work)?

We had another warm dry morning this morning, and so I dusted for the third consecutive day. Here are the numbers (all measured one hour after dusting):

Hive #1 (failing): Day 1 >500, Day 2 160, Day 3 60
Hive #2: Day 1 ~250, Day 2 160, Day 3 30
Hive #3: Day 1 30, Day 2 80 Day 3 15

It's going to start raining now so I will not be able to dust again for some time, but I have been impressed by how effectively this tecnique has allowed me to wash most of the phoretic mites out of the hive and how well the bees and the hive seem to accept the treatment. In three days of successive treatments, it seems that I've succeeded to reduce the phoretic mite count by close to 90%. While the battle is far from over and most of the mites remain in the capped brood, having so many fewer mites loose in the hive has got to be good for the open brood which will be getting capped soon. Since my queens are still laying and I still have open brood of all ages, I am hopeful that this intensive powdered sugar dusting is helping my hives to improve the quality of the winter brood and may help my failing hive to survive.



Axtmann said:


> You should ask on this forum for beekeepers who used sugar as a mite treatment and didn’t lost there bees in the long run.
> More than 200 already checked your thread and NOT ONE came up with real honest answers and instructions how to do it saving the hive with “sugar dusting”.


Axtmann,

you raise a fair point and so I will ask:

Has anyone else ever saved a hive severely contaminatd by mites with sugar dusting treatments alone gong in to winter?

A couple caveats: 

A/ I am in California and still have laying queens and open brood, so I believe I still have a chance to improve the quality of the winter brood where in colder climates, there is probably no chance this late in the season to establish uninfested capped brood.

B/ In the 'long run' I do not plan to rely on powdered sugar dusting alone to combat the Varroa, or even as a regular treatment. Having learned as much on the subject as I have over the past week, I am planning to make extensive use of drone traps as my primary IPM technique with brood management (creating periods of broodlessness) and powdered sugar dusting being reserved for recovering hives that are getting into trouble or cleaning up an infested swarm.

One of the great joys of this hobby is the complexity, the freedom to experiment, and the learning.

I screwed up my first year in letting my hives raise all the drones they wanted on the foundationless frames I gave them. One of the hives is severely infested now (>500 mites dropping 1 hour after dusting) and showing all the signs of PMS including DWV and spotty brood pattern. I plan to keep knocking down as many of the phoretic mites as I can through powdered sugar dustng every chance I get through the winter to see if I can get this hive into spring alive.

If anyone has any experience or reason that this experiment is doomed, I would appreciate some advice. Otherwise, I feel like I am improving my failing hive's chances of survival and will let everyone know how it all turns out.

-fafrd

p.s. it take me 30 minutes total to treat all 3 hives (4 deeps total, so 7.5 min/deep) and about $0.50 worth of powdered sugar ($0.13/deep).


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## metrosean (Jan 10, 2006)

I beg to differ with Axtman's post but, I was "honest" and I did give instructions as did the post before me.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks metrosean.

So you dusted once a week through the first three weeks of November? Can you give me some idea of you rmite counts before and after the treatment?

How many tears have you had the hive?

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Sorry, how many _years_, not how many tears. Didn't notice until it was too late to edit.

-fafrd


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

If I remember correctly, Randy Olivers research said a once per week dusting will not lower mite counts, but will keep them about the same. According to him it takes more than once a week to lower the numbers.
Here's a link to his site. www.scientificbeekeeping.com


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks, Dan. I think I will find out if Randy is right. Dusted again this afternoon (4th consecutive day). Counts 1 hour after dusting as follows:

Hive #1 (failing): 85 mites
Hive #2: 43 mites
Hive #3: 120 mites

All three hives showed a higher mite count today than yesterday and I have to conclude that this is related to mites which have newly emerged over the past 24 hours. As long as I have 1 hour mite counts which are in the double digits, I plan to continue dusting as often as possibe limited by the weather.

Just to put things in perspective, the total number of mites I have eliminated from my hives over the past four days total as follows:

Hive #1: 805 mites
Hive #2: 483 mites
Hive #3: 245 mites

Over 1500 mites eliminated over 4 days - hopefully for a positive end-result!

-fafrd


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

It would be interesting to know the relative strength (number of bees) in the hives. So if hive three is the strongest (100) then if hive one had 50% as many bees it would 50, etc.

I use 40/day over a three day drop to decide if I want to treat (in the middle of August), but this is for a strong double deep hive. I adjust for smaller hives. It would be interesting to note if hive one is the weakest but yet drops the most mites and then see how all three do over winter.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

beedeetee said:


> It would be interesting to know the relative strength (number of bees) in the hives. So if hive three is the strongest (100) then if hive one had 50% as many bees it would 50, etc.
> 
> It would be interesting to note if hive one is the weakest but yet drops the most mites and then see how all three do over winter.


beedeetee,

I've continued dusting yesterday and today (6 days straight now) and I think the numbers are starting to show some interesting trends. Here is a recap of the 1-hour post-dusting drop numbers along with a swag at hive strength:

Hive #1 (this was the hive that was showing signs of PMS including bees with DWV outside of the entrance and spotty brood pattern) - 5 seams full of bees in the lower deep and 3 seams full of bees in the upper deep - I would guess somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000 bees. Mite drop number as follows:

Day 1: >500
Day 2: 160
Day 3: 60
Day 4: 85
Day 5: 45
Day 6: 70

Average over the last three days has settled down to about 65 mites per day, which I assume means I am now primarily seeing drop numbers dominated by the number of newly-emerged mites from capped brood over the past 24 hours. If 65 infested capped-cells/day is an accurate reflection of the level of infestation, this should mean about 13 days X 65 cells/day = 845 foundress mites in capped cells and about 4.5 days phoretic X 65 emerging mites/day = 293 phoretic mites - or about 1140 mites total for an infestation level of 6-11% (or 2-3% if you are only counting the phoretic mites).

Hive #2 is a single-deep hive/nuc with about 6 seems full of bees and I would guess between 15,000 and 20,000 bees. Mite drop numbers tell a similar story:

Day 1: ~250
Day 2: 160
Day 3: 30
Day 4: 43
Day 5: 30
Day 6: 40

Average over the past three days of about 35 mites, corresponding to an infestation level of 455 foundress mites in capped brood and 158 phoretic mites, for as total of 613 mites of 4-6% (or 1-2% based on phoretic only).

The numbers for the third hive have been jumping all over the place, either because the amount of powdered sugar I have been using is very inconsistent (this is usually the last hive that I dust and I often just use up whatever amount of powdered sugar remains in the jar) or because I introduced a new queen into this hive about 3 weeks ago and so the brood trend is just adjusting now. This hive is a single deep with 8 seems full of bees and I would guess about 20,000 -30,000 bees. In any case, here are the drop numbers:

Day 1: 30
Day 2: 80
Day 3: 15
Day 4: 120
Day 5: 100
Day 6: 23

I also dusted my mating nucs for the first time today. These are three 3-medium-frame mating nucs with laying queens in a medium queen castle. The best had only 2 mites, another had 10, but the worst had 40 mites, which is a pretty severe infestation level. This last mating nuc has a single frame 1/3 full of brood (at most) and only 2 medium seams full of bees, so I would judge it to be between 1000-2000 bees at most. Based on the phoretic mites alone, the infestation level looks like it is in the range of 2-4% (and double that if we assume that only half of the phoretic mites are dropping from the dusting) and if we assume another 80 foundress mites in capped brood, the infestation level is in the range of 6-12%! (similar to my failing hive, hive #1)

It is a pain for me to dust the queen castle and so I will not be able to do it more than once per week. I plan to continue daily dusting on the larger hives and weekly dusting on the mating nucs - hopefully will learn something interesting in comparing the effectiveness on these two badly infested hives.

Will keep everyone posted.

-fafrd


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

fafrd 

I bought the bellows-type sugar duster on sale from Bluesky. I find if good to use on the nucs. Most of my nucs have only 3/4" holes as entrances, so the pipe from the duster minus the plastic deflector gets the sugar inside without having to open them up. A single blast or two is all I give the nucs.

I'm interested in the counts that you've been doing. I've been dusting all year, but have no stats except from a few alcohol-washes I've done that tell me the method is working.

Wayne


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Wayne,

thanks for the suggestion of using a bellows though the entrance - you just blow a couple puffs in from the bottom and it permeates up through the frames, huh? Is this the model you bought:

http://blueskybeesupply.com/powdered_sugar_applicator.html


I may look into a bellows eventually, but my biggest problem with dusting the nucs is not getting the powdered sugar in, but getting it out.

My queen castle has a solid bottom board, so I need to transfer the entie thing onto a screend bottom board, dust it, wait an hour, and then tranfer it back.

I dusted the 3 big hives again yesterday (Day 7) and here are the updated counts:

. . . . . Hive#1 . . Hive #2 . . Hive#3
Day 1 .. >500 . . . . ~250 . . . . . 30
Day 2 .. . 160 . . . . . 160 . . . . . 80
Day 3 . . . 60 . . . . . . 30 . . . . . 15
Day 4 . . . 85 . . . . . . 43 . . . . 120
Day 5 . . . 45 . . . . . . 30 . . . . 100
Day 6 . . . 70 . . . . . . 40 . . . . . 23
Day 7 . . . 15 . . . . . . 20 . . . . . 15


I will out of town until the end of the week. I've arranged for another beekeeper to dust the hives daily in my absence, but I will not have any more counts to report before Saturday.

-fafrd


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## I work for the Queen (Oct 29, 2010)

You should check Randy Oliver's website, "The scientific beekeeper".


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is the best technique for dusting?


Thanks,
Dan


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## I work for the Queen (Oct 29, 2010)

Dan,

Randy Oliver explains this very well on his website. For me I use a screened frame the same size as the hive. I use one cup of ps per hive body. If you have two deeps, then just put the screen over the 2nd deep and use 2 cups of ps. Brush the ps across the screen, remove the screen and brush ps off tops of frames. Do this once a week for three consecutive weeks. In my area mites peak about mid-Aug, so adjust your treatment start time for your area.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

I work for the Queen said:


> You should check out Randy Oliver's website, The Scientific Beekeeper".


Have checked it out many times - and in fact have probably read everything Randy has on his site regarding Varroa at least 2-3 times now.

Did not seen anything on the site regarding dusting more frequently than every week or every 4 days - have you seen anything on that subject (on Randy's site or anywhere else)?

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

I work for the Queen said:


> Dan,
> 
> I use a screened frame the same size as the hive. I use one cup of ps per hive body. Brush the ps across the screen, remove the screen and brush ps off tops of frames.


I do not bother with the screened frame (or smoke). I made a powdered sugar shaker out of a canning jar, replacing the flat lid with two pieces of screen positioned 45 degree rotation from each other.

I hold the jar horizontally with the vertically-oriented lid positioned directly over the seam between two frames and 'karate-chop' the front of the jar so that PS shakes out and goes straight down into the seam. Moving along the length of the frame, I keep chopping, leaving a trail of white PS on the bees in the seam. Working in this way, I apply PS into each seam containing bees. When I am done, I do another pass, continuing until I have shaked a total of about 1 cup of PS for a full deep with 9 seams (this usually involved 3-4 passes and takes about 5 minutes).



I work for the Queen said:


> Dan,
> 
> If you have two deeps, then just put the screen over the 2nd deep and use 2 cups of ps.


When I have a two-deep hive, I shake a cup of PS into each deep. I first remove the upper deep and shake into the bottom deep, and then I replace the upper deep and shake into it.



I work for the Queen said:


> Dan,
> 
> Do this once a week for three consecutive weeks.


Dusting once a week for three weeks will only work if there is no capped brood for those three weeks and the only Varroa mites in the hive over that three-week period are Phoretic mites (out in the open).

Most of the sources I have found including Randy Oliver's website indicate that a dusting of powdered sugar will eliminate about 50% of the Phoretic mites only - powdered sugar does not treat or effect any Varroa mites breeding within any capped brood (Foundress mites and their offspring). Since the Phoretic period for newly-emerged mites is only 4.5 days, the number of new phoretic mites emerging from capped brood will pretty much bring the total number of phoretic mites back to the pre-dusting level before the next treatment is applied (and the number of new foundress mites entering newly-capped brood over that same 1-week period will be over 70% of the level it would have been without dusting). The bottom-line is that dusting once a week for three weeks will not really reduce the number of mites if there is brood in the hive, and at best it will hold the number of mites from increasing over that period.

Dusting once a week for three weeks will only be effective if the hive is in a period of broodlessness over that three week period (winter or queenless) in which case all of the mites are Phoretic and out in the open, and each treatment should knock down half of them. A total of three treatments should reduce the number of mites down to about 12.5% (1/8th) of their starting level, and a fourth treatment should reduce them down to 6% (1/16th).

This statement is true for any treatment type that only treats the Phoretic mites, and Michael Bush makes the same point on his website here:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm

I am treating during a period with open brood, and so weekly dustings are not going to do much. This is the reason I have been dusting daily for the past 10 days and plan to continue at least through next weekend. After 4 consecutive days of dusting, the only Phoretic mites in the hive are the newly-emerged Daughter and Foundress mites which have emerged from emerging capped brood since the last dusting. By dusting these new Phoretic mites daily for the next 4 days, there will only be about 1/16th of them left to re-enter and contaminate new open brood about to be capped.

Dusting daily for a period of 14-16 days should reduce all of the mites in the hive (Phoretic and Foundress) down to about 1/16th of the pre-treatment level.

So far, my experiment with daily dusting has been progressing well and I will continiue to update the board with my results.

In any case, the results I have already seen have me convinced that if you want to dust your hives 3-4 times during a period of broodlessness to greatly reducethe number of mites (which are all Phoretic), it will be more effective to dust 3-4 times on 3-4 consecutive days (or dust 3-4 times as quickly as possible) rather than only dusting once per week for 3-4 weeks. The bees recover from a duting in less than a day and have seen no ill effects from daily dusting. Also, by dusting on consecutive days rather than stretcing the treatment period out over a 3-4 week period, you can be sure that the hive will remain broodless troughout the entire treatment period (harder to assure over a 3-4-week period).

-fafrd


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## usaairforceeod (Jan 22, 2011)

Are any further conclusions from this experiment forthcoming?


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## ronzo0424 (Apr 30, 2004)

if you continue to dust with powdered sugar feel free to contact me to buy more bees............................. it does not work WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Are you speaking from experience? If so, then you should say "according to my experience . . ."


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

All I can add, is good luck. I have never seen that many mites in a hive.


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## I work for the Queen (Oct 29, 2010)

With that many mites you will have problems with viruses as well. After you get rid of the mites, you need to treat for nosema. This may help them enough that they can recover.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I would use formic or thymol as an emergency backup, if the sugar dusting failed to control the mites. Bees are too precious a resource to let die if you can intervene on their behalf and save them. TK


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

You go, fafrd! Hope it works! Am waiting with baited breath!


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