# Plastic frames



## cbdeajr (May 25, 2017)

Just purchased a month ago some plastic frame to use next year. However I had someone at a club meeting who keep bees in Texas said that they had a large problem with the plastic frames. It was do to the small spaces around the frame which he said was a great place for small hive beetle to hid. After looking at them can see how that might be a problem. Has anyone else had a problem with the plastic and what did you do to correct it?


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## NorthMaine (Oct 27, 2016)

I use wooden ones, but was thinking that maybe you could fill the gaps with wax or something?


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## HillBilly2 (Jul 26, 2015)

Hot glue can be your friend. Are shb really a problem in Montana?


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## cbdeajr (May 25, 2017)

HillBilly2 said:


> Hot glue can be your friend. Are shb really a problem in Montana?


Not really in Montana , but I am now in Missouri and they are a problem. Thanks for the hot glue suggestion.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

HillBilly2 said:


> Hot glue can be your friend.


My guess you’ll get tired of hot gluing after 2-3 frames...


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

"Has anyone else had a problem with the plastic and what did you do to correct it?"

Found someone who didn't know and traded them for wooden ware, taking a small loss on the whole deal - that was maybe 1976?
Some say - the ones stuck with them, I reckon - dipping the whole frame in wax fixes the prime problem which is where the bees are reluctant to fill the comb body onto the frame structure reaulting in loose combs. Not so bad
in a broodchamber but horrific in an extractor.
I still have a very few plastic endbars on wood, I do find that config handy
in brood chambers at #3 - #7 as rarely are they stuck down solid making working tbrough the broodnest very easy indeed.
Yes SHB do like to hide in the reinforcing catacombs of the endbars but
they gotta come out sometime and so overall there is no problem for bees
at strength.

Bill


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

eltalia said:


> Yes SHB do like to hide in the reinforcing catacombs of the endbars but
> they gotta come out sometime and so overall there is no problem for bees
> at strength.
> Bill


It’s not the SHB in groves, it’s the SHB eggs that the bees can’t get to, to remove.


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## Apis Natural (Aug 31, 2017)

I just dumped 100 pierco's due to warping and twisting over the last year and a half, not worth the money imo, wish I would have bought wooden frames. what a waste of bees work. of course I scraped them, but could have gone 5yrs with wooden frames like my others.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Why not just cut them out and then reinstall them in the wooden frames?
Seems like a lot easier than gluing them.
.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Apis Natural said:


> I just dumped 100 pierco's due to warping and twisting over the last year and a half, not worth the money imo, wish I would have bought wooden frames. what a waste of bees work. of course I scraped them, but could have gone 5yrs with wooden frames like my others.


I agree. IMO, plastic frames are not a good investment. Beyond SHB, the frames get weak with age and will eventually fail in multiple ways. That said, I've found that my bees prefer the PF style (Mann Lake designation) foundation that comes with these frames. In fact, I was in a colony last week and took a peek into the honey supers. (We have a decent flow going.) The super is a mix of Rite Cell in wooden frames, but also has 3 PF-120 frames. The super was setup like this: [o o o o o x x o x] o=rite cell, x=pf-120. All frames were previously drawn out. The bees were only filling the PF frames and mostly ignoring the rite cell. That included the pf frame that was near the outside of the box. I've seen the same with brood frames. Having observed this for many years, I've come to the realization that the PF foundation is preferred (at least by my bees). However, this beekeeper hates the plastic frames!


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

@snl
"It’s not the SHB in groves, it’ s the SHB eggs that the bees can ’t get to , to remove ."
As put prior.... they gotta come out sometime.

@Astrobee
My struggle with understanding (interpretating) @beepro's suggestion to @Apis Natural's "of course I scraped them" aside, your observation could have more to do with airpaths and maybe even access across frames to find the 3 x PF120 being preferred as first choice to work on, filling. 
The way to prove consistency is to move the frames to see if the bees follow the relocation.

Long have I listened to and digested the "plastic debate" to conclude plastic whatever has it's place. That place is just not in new (starter) colonies and certainly not for new players to be thrown into, as yet another hurdle. The fact many suppliers offer plastic bundles to new players is an abomination, in my view.

Bill


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

eltalia said:


> your observation could have more to do with airpaths and maybe even access across frames to find the 3 x PF120 being preferred as first choice to work on, filling.
> The way to prove consistency is to move the frames to see if the bees follow the relocation.


I certainly do not claim to know the reason behind what I have observed, but I've seen this general preference before, but mostly for brood. I know that cell size has been attributed as beneficial for varroa, for which I have serious doubts, but in regards to late season flow management, perhaps the bees were indeed seeking smaller cells to fill? I am pretty confident that (at least my bees) prefer Pf sized cells for brood.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

AstroBee said:


> I certainly do not claim to know the reason behind what I have observed,
> (edit)
> I am pretty confident that (at least my bees) prefer Pf sized cells for brood.


My comments were simply to say it would be relevant to prove
the observation holds for all situations in your colonies. A good chance
then the behavior would hold true for all bees everywhere.

Like, my pointer on using the plastic endbars should hold anywhere as
I have run the few I have across many configs in many colonies to
find it rare the bees glue down the ears to the rabbet.
That info has to help those who find themselves needing to use a 
hivetool of these proportions to free up frames;
https://www.betterbee.com/beekeeping-tools/ht4-14in-hive-tool.asp

Bill


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

I have a few pierco's I was given by a friend down at the Phoenix Bee club in 2015 in Arizona, in less than 3 months they warped a little. I just remember going out to my Holbrook yard and finding the frames bent and sortta twisted after pulling them out of the hive during inspection.
I just removed them so I wouldn't worry about the possibility cross combing.
I also don't like how easy they break when glued into the deeps, and they twist and flex way to flimsy from side to side. and then what about the plastic off gassing, all plastics off gas harmful chems over time, and in heat plastic off gases faster. another reason I pulled them from the colonies and won't use them.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

DavidZ said:


> I have a few pierco's I was given by a friend down at the Phoenix Bee club in 2015 in Arizona, in less than 3 months they warped a little


Not much of a friend :lpf:


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

I bought out a guy who had a bunch of new self made boxes and Pierco one piece frames. The boxes turned out to be junk just like the frames. My bees made a ton of cross comb and built come in between the frames. 3 years later I'm still paying for it. Something else that's a pain in the butt is having to dig out wax moth larva from the little groves also. And on top off all this is they also warped.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I'll be the odd woman out: I use almost all Pierco plastic frames, and my bees do extremely well on them. (I do overwax them by hand to get them started.)

I wondered and fretted about the SHB in the between-rib space on the sides, but don't feel it's a big deal here. I could run a bead of caulk in there, I suppose, but so far I haven't seen the need.

But as to the assertion that they warp, I have never seen that, except on a frame that accidentally fell off my cart and was left in the sun. (And nothing I've tried has successfully unwarped it.) Hanging within the colony has never produced a warped frame. 

Since my new frames are always overwaxed, I never expose them to the sun in the yard before installing them, because that melts the thin extra-waxed coating in just minutes if they are exposed in the sun. They go straight from a holding box into the hive. And as a rule, I don't have any full-drawn frames out of a box for more than a minute - they always go in a closed-up quiet box when out of the hive. 

I suppose that in the SW air temps are higher, but I'm not sure that translates to significantly-higher temps within the colony, so I can't imagine how plastic frames are warping while in use. And at the other end of the scale, the frames that are off my colonies during the winter are exposed to ambient temps of minus 20-25 F most winters. And I've never had a frame break or snap due to cold.

I also use wood frames with partial sheets of Pierco foundation, some with full sheets of plastic foundation and some foundationless in wood frames. And when I open a box, and look down on the frames before tackling them, I am always slightly heartened to see a majority of black stripes vs wood frames. 

Nancy


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## ozbee (Feb 13, 2012)

for the future when mankua plantations start in your country its the guys who own plastics that will make all the money . being in a country full of shb the only eggs that will hatch have to be embedded into or on a food source whether plastic or foundation no difference unfortunately


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

For me to start a manuka plantation here I will need plenty of seeds from you to 
mail them over here. How many plants do I need and in what environment will grow best?


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

ozbee said:


> for the future when mankua plantations start in your country its the guys who own plastics that will make all the money . being in a country full of shb the only eggs that will hatch have to be embedded into or on a food source whether plastic or foundation no difference unfortunately


.... must be the suspended clays in that B'kin water clouding the message
around Manuka and SHB 'cos I am not "getting" the twist, at all.
Do I "do a Hanson" to comment "please hexsplain".. heh ;-)

Bill


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## mike17l (Jun 22, 2012)

I keep bees in deep south Texas, I have been transitioning to one piece heavy wax black frames from acorn. This is an excellent product, with few if any drawbacks. SHB issues have not increased with these frames. Strong colonies will keep beetles at bay, no matter the frame choice. I have had no warping with the acorn frames. Additionally, the one piece frame comes at about 50% the cost of wood frames with plastic foundation. The benefits out weigh any perceived downfalls.


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## Buzz-kill (Aug 23, 2017)

Since one of the ways bees deal with shb is to corral them in propolis or any other type of prison in the hive the spaces in the plastic frames would seem ideal for that.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I have both plastic and foundationless frames. If the beetles are not hiding on the plastic frames they are hiding somewhere else. Have one or another in your hive does not effect how well your bees guard the entrance. 

Having those hiding spots on plastic frames is an easy spot to kill a bunch. The pointed end of a feather makes an excellent tool to kill beetles hiding there. 

Keeping a strong QR hive in full sun makes the biggest difference.


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## Nhaupt2 (May 31, 2016)

I use the Acorn plastic frames. I think they are great. never had a problem with beetles and in the limited time I have used them they have never warped. Even tak8ng into account the crazy shipping fees they are substantially cheaper then wooden when purchased by the case. also no friggin endless frame nailing.


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