# Too late to combine hives? CT



## Nick87 (Sep 8, 2015)

Good morning everyone

I am new here and a novice beekeeper. Doing my inspection yesterday I noticed I have one hive that will not progress to where I wanted it. I bought a nuc on June 15th ( I thought that was a bit late, but I'm a beginner and the seller told me it was fine) and this nuc still has not even filled a 2nd brood box. I have been feeding for 2 weeks now. Week 1 they fed well, and killed 2 pints of syrup in 2 days. This week, they didn't even finish both of them. I have a bottom deep that is full with honey, pollen, and some empty holes. The 2nd deep has 5 frames with comb and they are not even all filled or capped. The other 5 frames are completely empty, no comb, nothing. 

I am very disappointed with this hive. I was hoping I could feed and get them where they need to be, but that looks like it won't work out. What do I do?! I have another nuc from the same guy, that is doing better (not amazing, but it is doing well) and I was wondering if it's too late to combine the two? What are my other options at this point? I really would like some help from some of the more experienced beekeepers here! I know these bees won't make the winter. They barely even have more than 10 frames all together. Any suggestions/help is greatly appreciated! Thanks


Nick


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## Pooh Bear (Jun 19, 2015)

Not sure if this helps but I live in Port Chester, NY on the border with CT and have noticed that over the last two days my nuc hive has definitely started to slow down on its syrup intake. I use an external feeder so I speculate that cooler nights are the reason. You could perhaps switch to a internal feeder that would give them a longer window to feed before it gets too cold? Might want to consider making a sugar board for the winter too.

I started my nuc in late July but have been feeding it continuously since. First I used 1:1 syrup but now I have transitioned to 2:1 (S:W) to beef up their reserves. All in all, I wouldn't be surprised if I used 50lbs of sugar in syrup format.

Also, going into the winter, I imagine it would be advantageous to give them the smallest space available to heat like moving them to a smaller box (5 frame nuc?) or some other equipment manipulation. Perhaps you could use a follower board which would allow you to reduce the internal size of your hive from 10 frames wide down to 5 frames? 

Combination is an option but I would consider that to be the last resort.


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## Nick87 (Sep 8, 2015)

Thanks for the quick reply. I have actually been feeding with mason jar feeders (the hive entrance feeders) but I have them inside the hive, on top of the frames. I then put an empty super on top, and put my cover on next. There are a smaller amount of bees in this hive, and all in all it looks very weak. I was not given the best hive off the start...I'd hate to lose these bees over winter, but it seems inevitable at this point, if things don't turn around.


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2004)

It sounds as if your 2nd deep does not have all 10 frames drawn in the 2nd box. If so, I don't think they will draw frames now (with these cold nights). Combining is the way to go. Fortunately, it will take me longer to tell you 'how' than it will for you to do it.

We (I am in Albany NY, so not far from you) are going to have some good days this weekend. On one of those go to your newer hive and smoke them heavily from the top. Take the covers off your better hive and smoke it lightly. After 5 minutes from when you heavily smoked your newer hive, remove the top box and set it aside. Quickly pick up the bottom box and put it on top of your better hive...no newspaper, no anything. (Needing a sheet of newspaper is an old wives tale.) Put on the covers.

Go back to where the newer hive was. One at a time, take each frame out of the box and shake any bees to the ground. Walk away with this box and the frames without any bees. The bees on the ground will find their way to the stronger hive.

You said you have five frames drawn in the 2nd box, which now have no bees on them. If you have room in a refrigerator in your garage or in a freezer, put those frames in it until you have a hard frost (probably about the end of October). If you do not, wax moths will get to them and they will be ruined. After we have a hard frost they can be stored in your garage, a shed, etc. until spring. If you can't store in a refrigerator or freezer, put on top of the box you just moved, with the inner cover below, and remove after the hard frost.

Finally, the three boxes, plus covers and bottom board on your 'strong' hive needs to weigh about 100 lbs for the winter. If it does not, feed, feed, feed. 2:1 syrup is best. Bees will gradually take it through October (at least). 

Good luck, and find a new place to buy a nuc for 2016. If you want a suggestion near you, call me. 518-573-8246.

Lloyd


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## johnwratcliff (Feb 24, 2015)

Couldn't you winter in a nuc? There are others that do it up there. Just a thought.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> It sounds as if your 2nd deep does not have all 10 frames drawn in the 2nd box. If so, I don't think they will draw frames now (with these cold nights). Combining is the way to go. Fortunately, it will take me longer to tell you 'how' than it will for you to do it.
> 
> We (I am in Albany NY, so not far from you) are going to have some good days this weekend. On one of those go to your newer hive and smoke them heavily from the top. Take the covers off your better hive and smoke it lightly. After 5 minutes from when you heavily smoked your newer hive, remove the top box and set it aside. Quickly pick up the bottom box and put it on top of your better hive...no newspaper, no anything. (Needing a sheet of newspaper is an old wives tale.) Put on the covers.
> 
> ...



Maybe I missed something in the OP but why would you combine a weak hive with a strong hive w/o first finding and disposing of the weak queen? Seems like an invitation for disaster and even possible loss of both hives.


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## Nick87 (Sep 8, 2015)

I was going to ask about the weak queen. Should I find and dispatch? What if I can't find her? I am still a novice after all... I have only seen my queen once in this hive. She is not marked. I don't want to spend hours looking for her. If I can combine without finding her, that is ideal for me; but I can do what I need to.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

There are lots of threads on here on techniques for finding the queen. Do you have eggs? If so you probably have a queen. But one way I did it once was to put a queen excluder over a box with comb (or even empty frames) then an empty box over that and then dump all your bees into the empty box and smoke them heavily down into the lower box and you should be able to find her on the excluder. It also helps to put a towel over the top box as you smoke to keep the bees moving down and out of your face.


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## Sky (Jul 7, 2015)

you'll get lots of suggestions - I'd do a combine only if i thought both hives were too wimpy to make it through the winter... If I was confident the other hive was ok, and only had these two hives, I'd try to save it as it's own colony as "winter insurance" (resources to "fix" other hive if needed)
I'll make some assumptions....
it sounds like you have about 15 frames of resources - not a lot, but if you have a very small colony, that may be all they can handle and need - It also sounds like you have 10 frame equipment.... I'd insert some follower boards or some filler as poohbear was suggesting to temporarily shrink the hive space down to 7X& or 8X8 configuration, and then feed the heck out of them - if it's getting cold, switch up to a dry feed (sugar, Candy board, etc). 

Sky


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## Nick87 (Sep 8, 2015)

I have a total of 4 hives. 2 are very strong, weighing around 100lbs. The 3rd hive is about 80lbs, and the 4th not even 50lbs. I see I have a lot of options here. I'd hate to lose the bees over the winter, so the route I'd like to go is the one that gives me the best chance of survival. Whether that is all 4 making it, or just combining into 3 hives, does not matter to me. My friend and I are buying 20 packages in the spring, so I'm not worried about going from 4, to 3 hives for the winter.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Nick87 said:


> Good morning everyone
> 
> I am new here and a novice beekeeper. Doing my inspection yesterday I noticed I have one hive that will not progress to where I wanted it. I bought a nuc on June 15th ( I thought that was a bit late, but I'm a beginner and the seller told me it was fine) and this nuc still has not even filled a 2nd brood box. I have been feeding for 2 weeks now. Week 1 they fed well, and killed 2 pints of syrup in 2 days. This week, they didn't even finish both of them. I have a bottom deep that is full with honey, pollen, and some empty holes. The 2nd deep has 5 frames with comb and they are not even all filled or capped. The other 5 frames are completely empty, no comb, nothing.
> 
> ...


From a nuc to a packed double deep in a bit over three months would be pretty impressive. If that hive has 10 total frames, I would overwinter in a single deep. What makes you think they will not make it? 

Shane


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## Nick87 (Sep 8, 2015)

Complete novice, Shane. Is that do-able? So I want 10 total frames of honey? Or a mix? There is a small amount of bees, and not a ton of honey. If you think a single deep is an option, I'll try that. I want the best option for the bees. I will do inspection tomorrow morning and check back with everyone. Thanks

Nick


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## Pooh Bear (Jun 19, 2015)

Good luck


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