# Is this another gimmick "natural size honeybees"



## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

Came across an ad offering 3 lbs of natural size honeybees. Seems to me this can be filed with the overly glorified queens.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

What size is natural sized?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

The size that comes from foundationless comb? That is how I would interpret this odd choice of words.

That or they are about this big (hold thumb and forefinger apart).


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

When I first started keeping bees, the online rage was 'small cell', it was the magic bullet for 'survivor bees'. A year or two later I noticed a lot of 'small cell' nucs for sale, and the online range was shifting now to 'natural cell'. My guess was, 'small cell' was worn out as the buzzword, so, the new rage was to replace 'small' with 'natural'. Now we see 'natural' being sold, first indication that buzzword is close to worn out. I wonder what will be next ?


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

I see stinking "Southern Organic" Honey Bee nucs for sale in Northern Georgia....drives me flipping crazy.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Sweet Bees, turned killer


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## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

Last May, I placed a bee package in a warre and i did not notice their decendant being smaller than bees from the langs frame. They were doing great until Fall, when they perished.


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## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

One more thing. Did you all noticed the premium cost for " natural sized bees? $50 above the "common" bee package


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

roberto487 said:


> One more thing. Did you all noticed the premium cost for " natural sized bees? $50 above the "common" bee package


Yup they are going for the sucker market.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Is the ad still runninng? Should ask them if they have calipers and what the measurement actually is .


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

For the EHB the length is 14mm, at least that is what is given in the Beekeeper's Handbook. I assume they mean an average length.

I am sure the seller measured each bee to verify that all bees were as advertised.


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## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

In the ad, they mentioned the apiary where these be are coming from.

http://www.wolfcreekbees.com

They have natural remedy for bee pests


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Wolf creek sells small cell 4.9 bees. At least they used too. Not sure why that makes them more valuable then any other bee unless they had some traits going for them. I'm not getting into small cell right now.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

roberto487 said:


> In the ad, they mentioned the apiary where these be are coming from.
> http://www.wolfcreekbees.com





> We are dedicated to the organic management of bees. Our stock is derived from the wild feral stock of the Duck River Basin. We add a little Russian genetics, so that the bees will fly at 38 degrees if the sun is shining and the wind is not blowing. Some Italian genetics are added for honey production. The gentleness and winter handiness of the bees is achieved from the addition of Carniolan genetics. The result is a gentle bee that is a good honey producer.


I got a chuckle when I read this paragraph on their Home page. I'm going to remember this when describing my "Mutt" bees to someone. They sound so exotic. 

Their advertising is actually an excellent marketing approach. They are targeting a select group looking specifically for Small Cell, naturally managed bees. And they are getting a premium for it. 

I don't really want to get into a discussion about the effectiveness or value of small cell or "natural" beekeeping, just think it's pretty slick salesmanship.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Awesome. I've finally cracked how to offload those queens that mated wrong .


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> Awesome. I've finally cracked how to offload those queens that mated wrong .


But do not forget this important part, it's in the 'natural treatments' menu when you select organic treatments for varroa mites.



> 2. Mix 1 Tablespoon of garlic powder with 1 cup of water in a blender on low speed for 2 – 3 minutes. Add the cup of blended mixture to a gallon of sugar water, mix by shaking, and feed it to the bees in early spring up till 3 weeks before the honey flow. Can be used again in the fall after the honey flow.


I may have to change some strategies here, our other main cash crop besides honey from bees is, you guessed it, garlic.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well strangely enough, I've always wondered about garlic as a varroa treatment.

When I kept a marine reef aquarium, the treatment for whitespot disease was freshly chopped garlic. The little white parasites attach themselves to the fish for 3 days, lay eggs, then drop off. Next generation thousands of eggs would hatch as free swimmers, and attach to the fish, population of parasites would build till the fish died. But feed the fish chopped garlic, which they enjoyed, and the parasites would drop off. Had to feed it daily for some number of days which I cannot remember, and the tank would be parasite free.

Always wondered if getting garlic into bee brood would have the same effect. For fish, the garlic had to be freshly chopped, as garlic when chopped makes a chemical that is active in ridding parasites, but the chemical quickly breaks down. So buying a jar of already ground garlic will not have the same effect.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Oldtimer,
If you are going to use garlic for varroa treatment you will have to have Italians.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)




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## Buzz-kill (Aug 23, 2017)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I got a chuckle when I read this paragraph on their Home page. I'm going to remember this when describing my "Mutt" bees to someone. They sound so exotic.
> 
> Their advertising is actually an excellent marketing approach. They are targeting a select group looking specifically for Small Cell, naturally managed bees. And they are getting a premium for it.
> 
> I don't really want to get into a discussion about the effectiveness or value of small cell or "natural" beekeeping, just think it's pretty slick salesmanship.


So if you read Wolf Creek's website you would have noticed that their packages sell for about the same price as most packages are selling. A little honesty would be nice.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Buzz-kill said:


> So if you read Wolf Creek's website you would have noticed that their packages sell for about the same price as most packages are selling. A little honesty would be nice.


Well, I read the Wolf Creek website, here: http://www.wolfcreekbees.com/
... and as far as I can tell there are no prices mentioned at all. :scratch:

No price list, no shopping cart - the closest thing to a 'price' I found was a mention of a $6 fee for "order changes" on the Terms and Conditions page. It appears that one must either go there in person or use the "Contact Us" webform to learn _anything_ about prices and products for sale.


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## Buzz-kill (Aug 23, 2017)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well, I read the Wolf Creek website, here: http://www.wolfcreekbees.com/
> ... and as far as I can tell there are no prices mentioned at all. :scratch:
> 
> No price list, no shopping cart - the closest thing to a 'price' I found was a mention of a $6 fee for "order changes" on the Terms and Conditions page. It appears that one must either go there in person or use the "Contact Us" webform to learn _anything_ about prices and products for sale.


Sorry. My bad. I talked to them on the phone last week and I thought they had put the information on the website. Ruth told me it would be on there soon. They quoted me $120 per package (not including shipping) over the phone.

edit: I checked my notes and it was $122 per package.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That's the problem with being touchy and having an itchy trigger finger.


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## Buzz-kill (Aug 23, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> That's the problem with being touchy and having an itchy trigger finger.


Better than the problem of just being a jerk.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Wolf Creek Bees doesn't put their price list out until after the 1st of the year just so you know.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Buzz-kill said:


> So if you read Wolf Creek's website you would have noticed that their packages sell for about the same price as most packages are selling. A little honesty would be nice.


Good point. The $185.00 price per package I noticed on the Craig's List ad in the first post was what stuck in my head. Looks like the retailer is the one making the nice premium, not so much Wolf Creek. A 52% margin just for handling, not bad.


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## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

So, if you want natural size bees, I just put frames without the stamped cells?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

> So, if you want natural size bees, I just put frames without the stamped cells?


That's what I think, but I guess it all depends upon what one's definition of "natural" might be.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The answer to that question is a minefield LOL. Because some say that naturally built comb is sized how the bees want it and therefore bees raised in it are naturally sized. Others say bees have to be regressed downwards over several generations because they start out too big and the first natural downsize is only part way there. Others say that bees have adapted to being too big and selected for that so all natural comb is too big and bees have to be forced onto man made 4.9 sized "natural" cell size. Others say measurements taken in pre comb foundation times have been interpreted wrongly and a correct reading shows bees have never been so small as 4.9. I could go on.

What I can say is that a salesman will call bees naturally sized if they have been raised in foundationless comb. Who can argue?


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

What they are referring to as natural cell is more than likely 4.9 small cell. It's not uncommon for folks in different areas in particular TN them to call 4.9 small cell natural cell. If they are coming from Wolf Creek Bees I have known the Seaborns for years. Wolf Creek raises their bees on small cell foundation seen it first hand.


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## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

The premium cost and the marketing language of these bee is what urged me to write this post. I have seen it with queens too. The retailer is selling package bees at a premium price by using keywords. I am aware the apiary sells these bees at the going price for package bees. I guess this is a buyer beware.


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## wasabi (Jun 14, 2016)

We got packages from Ruth last year and they were great.....until the bears turned hives into kindling. We're re-upping this year (and putting up electric fence)

So, here is a question....left to their own devices (assume foundationless)....will small cell (4.9) bees make (or use if foundation) the same size cells for honey storage?

Thanks,

Doug


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## Buzz-kill (Aug 23, 2017)

wasabi said:


> We got packages from Ruth last year and they were great.....until the bears turned hives into kindling. We're re-upping this year (and putting up electric fence)
> 
> So, here is a question....left to their own devices (assume foundationless)....will small cell (4.9) bees make (or use if foundation) the same size cells for honey storage?
> 
> ...


If I understand your question the answer is yes and no. They will store honey in 4.9 cells but if they are making comb specifically for honey storage (like above the brood nest) they tend to build drone size cells.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

wasabi said:


> We got packages from Ruth last year and they were great.....until the bears turned hives into kindling. We're re-upping this year (and putting up electric fence)
> 
> So, here is a question....left to their own devices (assume foundationless)....will small cell (4.9) bees make (or use if foundation) the same size cells for honey storage?
> 
> ...


Honey cell <> brood cell to begin with.
Honey cell is more like hastily built drone-size cell (large and sloppy).
They are not going to waste the effort doing 4.9 brood cell just for honey storage.
Brood cell is more expensive to build.


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## herbhome (Oct 18, 2015)

I bought two packages from wolf creek three years ago. They did pretty well. Not the nicest bees but kept varroa counts down without much help. Honey production wasn't really great. On several occasions I would measure foundationless worker cells to satisfy my curiosity and and they always ranged from 5.0 to 5.1mm.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

My small cell raised bees monticola descendants built 4.9 honey cell size in a super on 4.9 foundation and so far built 4.9 on natural comb.
My big cell mutts 5.4 built 5.0-5.1 on natural comb and burr comb on 4.9 foundation.
My AMM 4.9 built 5.0-5.4 cell size on natural comb.
All worker cell except honey cells or drone cells.

Many comment about cell size who never did any check or conduct a journal. Cell size built in spring differs from cell size built in late summer. It differs between races. It differs in climate zones.
The bees rearrange cell size on wax comb throughout the season.
I think it funny people comment about cell size who use plastic comb or plastic foundation. Do they really know what their bees would do with natural comb?

I want fat bees raised in natural cells. Natural cells are 5.0-5.1 in my climate, like Dee Lusby´s climate map says. I want narrow beespace between frames.

Wolf`s creek tells on his website what they do. Take it or leave it.


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## TexasFreedom (Feb 25, 2016)

I'm glad the 'attitude' of this thread has turned. It started out fairly aggressive. I'm glad the apiary has been vindicated.

My opinion is that this is just marketing. As the saying goes "buyer beware". I'm not saying small or natural sized is better or worse, I know nothing about this apiary or reseller or their genetics. But when anyone buys anything, if they don't do their homework they can easily get taken.

And a 50% markup for a retailer isn't unreasonable. He is taking risks and packages don't store well. In my business we basically charge twice our 'costs'. But then you have to factor in all the 'overhead'... building/property taxes/insurance, advertising, damages/losses, warranty costs, etc. And it is always easier to lower prices if things don't sell than to raise them. So when I "double" my money, I do well to take home 25% and it's earned. That's another business, not bees.

But this is where competition is wonderful. If one guys overcharges, his competitor will undercut him & steal his customers. And educated customers make businesses stronger. (hear the national anthem in the background with the flag gently waving) God Bless America!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There are people looking for small cell treatment free bees. Telling people what you are selling when people are looking for that exact thing is just how you do business. Providing something that is in demand is just business.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

I don't think the title is misleading. The first thought that comes to mind is they are selling bees from naturally draw comb, ie no foundation to control cell size. Like a top-bar or foundationless lang frame. There has been a market and demand for small cell bees. Several folks in my club use natural cell and small cell. Also some package suppliers market bees as small cell. 

Don't buy em if you think its a gimmick. IMO natural cell bees seem like they'de "naturally" be better than forced foundation cell bees.


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## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

burns375 said:


> I don't think the title is misleading. The first thought that comes to mind is they are selling bees from naturally draw comb, ie no foundation to control cell size. Like a top-bar or foundationless lang frame. There has been a market and demand for small cell bees. Several folks in my club use natural cell and small cell. Also some package suppliers market bees as small cell.
> 
> Don't buy em if you think its a gimmick. IMO natural cell bees seem like they'de "naturally" be better than forced foundation cell bees.[/QUOTE.
> 
> ...


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## Buzz-kill (Aug 23, 2017)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well, I read the Wolf Creek website, here: http://www.wolfcreekbees.com/
> ... and as far as I can tell there are no prices mentioned at all. :scratch:
> 
> No price list, no shopping cart - the closest thing to a 'price' I found was a mention of a $6 fee for "order changes" on the Terms and Conditions page. It appears that one must either go there in person or use the "Contact Us" webform to learn _anything_ about prices and products for sale.


The website was updated a week or two ago and now has prices.


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## Buzz-kill (Aug 23, 2017)

roberto487 said:


> burns375 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think the title is misleading. The first thought that comes to mind is they are selling bees from naturally draw comb, ie no foundation to control cell size. Like a top-bar or foundationless lang frame. There has been a market and demand for small cell bees. Several folks in my club use natural cell and small cell. Also some package suppliers market bees as small cell.
> ...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Buzz-kill said:


> But what is really galling about what you did is bringing in the name of the apiary after you and others had your fun lampooning natural size.


Your facts are all messed up Buzz-kill. Burns did not bring in the name of the apiary at all. You did. Post #20

Most of the other stuff you said is messed up also. Chill some.


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## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

A rhetorical question, what happens when these natual cell size bees are put on a framed hive? BINGO! What next, swarmless bees? Oh wait! I have a good marketing idea!


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