# Hive without a Queen - I think ?



## Martin (Nov 5, 2008)

Hi Everyone

I have a hive that was given to me a little time ago, It was a 2 box hive, when I got it from the persons place , the hive was laying on its side and the box lid off, the top box plate that sits under the lid was still in place but the box's had moved , more gaps than there should be so to speak, going by the way the bees had waxed them together the hive must have been on its side for quite some time

I stood the hive upright and let the bees settle down for several days before I lifted the top plate to take a look at the hive, what I discovered was that there were only 3 frames and the rest was just a hole mess of interwoven combs a real mess

I laid the hive back on its side and used a sheet of metal to use it like a guillotine to cut the top box of from the lower box. I cleaned up the frames in the base box and installed beetle traps, and placed a lid back on, I left the top box for several hours so that as many bees as poss would find there way back to the base box. 
I left the two boxes like that for 2 days before taking the base box home where it was placed away from my other hive just in-case of a beetle outbreak was going to happen , it didnt and after 2 weeks moved the new hive near my other hive

Now two weeks on I suited up and inspected the new hive, I looked for hours can could not find the Queen or any sign of eggs or larvae. I'm starting to wonder if when I cut the hive in-halve if I might have got the Queen!

What are my options here ?

Can I take a frame of brood from my strong hive and add it to my suspecting Queenless hive and hope that the workers will make a queen cell to one of the cell's that have egg's in them ?

How should I go about this or what should I do ?

thanks Martin


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## Martin (Nov 5, 2008)

Bump 

Come-on 51 lookers and no one can help ?

Cheers Martin


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## popsjim (Mar 4, 2009)

Hello
Yes you can put a frame of eggs in or get a new Queen from some one.But make sure there is no queen in the hive.
Good luck


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The best insurance when you wonder if there is a queen is a frame of open brood and eggs every week for three weeks or so. By then your new virgin will be laying or, if there wasn't one, they will raise a new one.

The problem comes down to this. While it only takes 16 days to make a queen (from the egg) and they will likely start from a new larvae (so it will be 12 days) it still takes two more weeks before she is likely to be laying. During the time it takes from when a queen gets accidentally killed it will be up to four weeks before you have a laying queen again. During that time all open brood (even drones) emerges and during the time from when she emerges to when she is laying she is a flighty virgin barely bigger than a worker and runs and hides so she is very hard to find. Adding a queen usually results in the new queen being killed. The dilemma is that they MIGHT be queenless. Hence the open brood. The other advantage of the open brood is it heads off laying workers.


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## Noelle (Apr 26, 2009)

Michael,

thanks so much for your response. It has answered the question I didn't even ask. a perfect prescription. What if I only have one other hive with 7-8 drawn out frames? can I take from that one and not leave it too weakened?


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

yes you can take from them it will weaken them but as opposed to loosing the other hive.... You could also combine the 2 with nespaper and have one really strong hive.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you go for mostly eggs and not so much brood, it really won't weaken them that much. The big investment for bees is brood. Especially capped brood. Eggs aren't much cost and a frame of eggs would do. If you pull a frame with some eggs and put an empty frame or a frame with foundation in the brood nest, the queen will pretty quickly lay in it and you can pull that for the next frame etc.


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## Noelle (Apr 26, 2009)

So I finally got some health and clear weather today - I found a nice newly drawn comb with lots and lots of beautiful eggs in the strong hive and moved it to the queenless hive. Wow, all the girls were really mad! In both hives they were bouncing off my veil and chasing me as a moved around the bee yard.

Question I thought of once I was out there in the thick of it...Do I move the frame with all the bees on it? or was I supposed to brush them all off. I tried a couple good shakes but it seemed to enrage them so I chickened out and stuck the frame bees and all into the weaker hive. 

I hope this wasn't a huge mistake. As I closed up the hives and walked away i had visions of angry fighting bees inside the hive.

Any advice as I will have to do this again next week?


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

Noelle said:


> Question I thought of once I was out there in the thick of it...Do I move the frame with all the bees on it? or was I supposed to brush them all off. I tried a couple good shakes but it seemed to enrage them so I chickened out and stuck the frame bees and all
> 
> ?


Why are you wanting the bees off the frame?


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## Noelle (Apr 26, 2009)

I dunno - fighting? Will the bees from the strong hive be accepted into the weak hive? Will they defend the eggs in some weird way and cause trouble?
Will they drift back and take some others with them?

I don't know - this is why I'm asking.

from your response I am guessing that the eggs AND the nurse bees are what I want to move over.:doh:


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

I have done both ways. But with no bees you have to bee-sure bees go on the frame from the get-go, otherwise the brood will not make it. I myself would take it with the bees, if, the hive you are taking it from can handle the loss.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I usually leave the bees on the frame. But if the hive you are putting it in has enough bees and you don't want to weaken the hive you're taking it from you can shake them off.


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## Noelle (Apr 26, 2009)

Thank you all so much for the excellent advice! I am so grateful to have this community and such generous gurus!


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

You're welcome and that will be 1 dollar... lol


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## Noelle (Apr 26, 2009)

So here's the update - and I need some help now ... again.
I moved the frame of eggs and included the bees on the frame on wed. Yesterday I went back in to add more brood. The frame I moved on wed is totally empty. NO eggs, No brood. Did the bees eat the eggs? could ants have somehow robbed out the eggs from inside the hive?

I went ahead and moved a frame from the strong hive to the weak hive again. this one had lots of eggs, lots of larvae in all different sizes and even a tiny corner of capped brood. (I almost gave them the queen accidentally as well). will they eat this brood?

But now I am thinking, should I just combine these hives? am I running out of time on this? 5/30/09 - there was a supercedure cell, some eggs and brood on 6/6/09 - there were no eggs, some larvae, some capped brood, and no queen cell (but only 3-4 frames are drawn out total). 6/10/09 I gave them the first frame of eggs - all of which dissappeared 6/13/09 gave them the second frame of mixed eggs, larvae, brood.

HELP! I will not get into these hive again for over a week. Any advice?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You can certainly combine and if they build up sufficiently, split them later, although it's getting a bit late for time for both a buildup and a split now.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

could be the colony is to weak to have cared for the eggs and larva or are you in a dearth may help if you was to feed them i have never come across this kind of situation before. They always have taken care of frames of brood that you add to one weather it was q-right or queen-less unless they may be sick T-mites or high level of v-mites or some other element


don't think i would combine you could end up loosing both not worth it.


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## Noelle (Apr 26, 2009)

Velbert said:


> unless they may be sick T-mites or high level of v-mites or some other element
> 
> 
> don't think i would combine you could end up loosing both not worth it.



Good points - strange as it was a new package on May 10, I treated with apiguard May 30- June 6, Only found 1-2 mites in the drop. I haven't noticed any deformed wings or dysentery but I am VERY new at this and wouldn't notice everything.

Our nectar flow should last another 3 weeks - a local beek told me.

:s:s


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

I united with news paper and i had killed the bad queen but when combined they ended up killing the other queen


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

is there a smell of the Apiguard still in the hive it could have caused them to have neglected the frame of eggs you added then after they dryed they carried them out


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