# Inside Dimensions for Long Lang



## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

I'm sure the original plans for a Lang deep were speced precisley.......but it seems opinions on interior dimensions when I search for interior dimensions for a Lang Deep box. Since I'm wanting to build a long lang that uses deep frames I need to figure out which is best.

For interior dimensions I found this:
- Length: 18 3/8" (some use 18 1/2")
- Depth: 9 1/2" for 3/8" bee space (some use 9 5/8")
- Width: 14 3/4" (since I'm building a long land, this dimension will change)

So a few questions:

- Which length should I use, 18 3/8"? Seems changing this dimension affects "bee space" and if so, do I want 3/8" of bee space all around the perimeter of the frame? If the sides bow a little doesn't this also affect "bee space"?

- Should I go with the 9 1/2" interior depth which provides 3/8" "bee space"? (repeat of bee space question I guess)

Finally, I was thinking of building the deep, long lang approximately 4ft long. I'm guessing I should go with 1 1/4" brood frames and 1 1/2" honey frames. How many brood frames should I plan for (size of brood) in my calculation? If i knew this, I could calculate how many honey framew fit in the remaining space and come up with the inside length I should use. Also, should I add maybe 1/16" to this length calculation just so the frames maybe slide in/out easier?

Thanks!


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

BeeAttitudes said:


> I'm sure the original plans for a Lang deep were speced precisley.......but it seems opinions on interior dimensions when I search for interior dimensions for a Lang Deep box. Since I'm wanting to build a long lang that uses deep frames I need to figure out which is best.
> 
> For interior dimensions I found this:
> - Length: 18 3/8" (some use 18 1/2")
> ...


The Inside dementions that you need to respect is the two that are for the frames themself to begin with. 
18 3/8" for the width - remember you will need to put in a 3/8 x 3/4 rabbet along the top rails for the frame to hang on.
9 5/8" for height is for a standard Lang box, however you will want to add 3/4" to the bottom for your entry/cluster area that a normal bottom board will give. So total height should be 10 3/8" total inside from your bottom board to the top rail. 
As for the lenght of the hive, this is always somewhat personal decision. Some people make them about 20 deep frames in length, others like me 25, yet others up to 30. 

I have mine set up for 25 so that I can actually take a production colony in the fall and split it out to 4, 5 frame nuc's. So mine is actually 35 1/2" in length inside.

Always allow an extra 3/4" total inside min on length to move frames. 
Stick with one specific frame width.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Assuming you are planning to use "standard" Dadant style frames, obviously the frames need to fit your hive + "bee space".

Not every frame manufacturer's product is identical, but too little space is worse than too much, IMO. For instance, deep frames can easily be 9 3/16" from the top of the top bar to the bottom of the bottom bar. If you add in top and bottom "bee space", 9 1/2" interior hive body dimension is too small.

Here is a link to detailed frame dimensions:
http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/dadant-type-frames/

Be aware when reading those plans that the total 'deep' frame height is 9 1/4" for the end bar PLUS 1/16" that the top bar extends higher than the top of the end bar. That apparent inconsistency is actually a design '_feature_' to allow the hive tool to scrape the top bar without catching on the top of the end bars.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>For interior dimensions I found this:
>- Length: 18 3/8" (some use 18 1/2")

18 3/8"

>- Depth: 9 1/2" for 3/8" bee space (some use 9 5/8")

For a long hive you need to include the bottom beespace which is not in a typical box. This means it needs to be between 9 7/8" (minimum) and 10 3/8" (maximum) assuming a standard 5/8" frame rabbet. I would make the frame rabbet 3/4" (which will leave a 3/8" top beespace instead of 1/4" and will not shrink as much when the propolis builds up) so that would change that to between 10" and 10 1/2". If you use a full 11 1/4" 1 by 12 you could cut a groove to slide in a piece of Luan plywood for the bottom board.

>- Width: 14 3/4" (since I'm building a long land, this dimension will change)

Yes.

>- Which length should I use, 18 3/8"?

Yes.

> Seems changing this dimension affects "bee space" and if so, do I want 3/8" of bee space all around the perimeter of the frame?

Anything between 1/4" and 3/8" is fine.

> If the sides bow a little doesn't this also affect "bee space"?

Of course. But I wouldn't lose sleep over it...

>- Should I go with the 9 1/2" interior depth which provides 3/8" "bee space"? (repeat of bee space question I guess)

No, you need to add the space the bottom board would have added. Make the frame rest 3/4" deep and and make the box between 10" and 10 1/2". I would tend towards the 10 1/2"...

>Finally, I was thinking of building the deep, long lang approximately 4ft long.

All of mine are 48 3/4" but if I were doing it again, I'd probably go with 48" even so the lids would come out even on 8 foot materials.

> I'm guessing I should go with 1 1/4" brood frames and 1 1/2" honey frames. 

If you are doing foundationless I would make all 1 1/4" frames and when the bees start building fatter combs, then space the remaining undrawn combs further apart. Unless you have solid top bars (assuming gaps between the top bars) then there is no reason to build 1 1/2" frames.


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

Perfect. Thanks for that quick feedback on the details everyone! Very helpful.

I've decided not to use top bars and instead use a standard sized deep Lang frame.......and I'm leaning toward foundationless (but I don't mind starting out with foundation from a nuc etc. and it might help the bees get started building straight). I'll probably purchase the frames and build the box/housing. With that in mind, there are several versions of a deep Lang frame and I'm not certain I understand all the differences. Which style frame would you recommend? I would like to buy the frames before I get started on the housing to ensure I don't mess up the inside measurements. I have at least these options:

- Wedged top, grooved bottom
- Modern Frames (slotted top with grooved bottom & end bars....also, thicker end bars)
- Foundationless, Comb Guide Top Bar frames (not sure, appears to have a groove on top bar, maybe no space to get above top bar?)
- Wedge Top, Solid Bottom Bar frames
- Grooved Top & Grooved bottom bar frames

I like the idea of a "V" shape on bottom of the top bar so if I'm not using foundation, should I go with the Wedge Top Solid Bottom Bar frame or go with the grooved bottom? Does the Modern Frame offer advantages with the thicker end bars?


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

I called Central Beekeepers Supply in central Arkansas and the said their foundationless frame has the V shaped bottom on the top bar. That sounds like a good option. Thoughts?

this one:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The foundationless frame will work fine. The thicker or thinner end bar is irrelevant.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

BeeAttitudes said:


> I called Central Beekeepers Supply in central Arkansas and the said their foundationless frame has the V shaped bottom on the top bar. That sounds like a good option. Thoughts?
> 
> this one:


Kelley's has frames like that as well. I bought some awhile back, haven't put any into the hives yet, though. I've been using Mann Lake's grooved top bar frames and gluing tongue depressors in. I got the Kelley's to prevent me from having another step to getting the frames ready but when ML had their black Friday sale I picked up another 100 frames and deeps.

Now I just have to get some bees to overwinter.


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