# Quality Frames



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

What companies manufacture their own frames? I am looking to purchase some medium frames with groved top bars and groved bottom bars. What company sells the highest quality frames?


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Hand-made ones are BEST!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Walter T. Kelley has very nice frames. They will make any kind of top bar or bottom bar that is common, including solid bottom bars and split top bars as well as grooved bottom bars and grooved top bars as you are looking for.

They make their own frames.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Thanks, Michael. I respect your opinion. I will buy all of my frames from Walter T. Kelley Co. 

I bought 1,200 frames from my present supplier and I am not happy. I am sanding most of the frames to keep from getting splinters in my hands!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Dave W has the best ones, but you will get a better price from Walter T. Kelley as they have a better mass production system and probably lower costs for their lumber.


----------



## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I haven't bought any of Dave W's so I have no experience there...but I've bought probably 2500 frames from Kelleys in the past 2 years and haven't had a bad one yet.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Who is Dave W?


----------



## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

JC said:


> Who is Dave W?


First person who responded to this thread.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Dadant/Western Bee are the manufacturers of my poor quality (rough) frames. Most of the frames that I receive from these people are second quality. Additionally, both Brushy Mountain and Rossman Apiaries buy their frames from Dadant/Western Bee. 

I have to sand most of the Dadant/Western Bee frames to keep from getting splinters in my hand! This is a most unfortunate situation. Dadant had the highest quality frames back in the 1960s. 

I am looking forward to getting some frames from Walter T. Kelley Co. I have not bought frames from the Kelley Co. since 1964! I think that Mann Lake also manufactures frames. They told me that they sell their second quality frames at their factory at a discount.

I cannot say enough good things about the late Walter Kelley. I still have a single space two page letter that he wrote to me, without a secretary, in 1965. He answered the questions of two Peace Corps volunteers in Africa who were trying to teach the natives beekeeping!


----------



## Tommy (Oct 9, 2005)

I buy all my frames from Brushy Mountain and have not received any seconds. Every thing is just as it is advertised.


----------



## Ann (Feb 18, 2006)

JC said:


> Dadant/Western Bee are the manufacturers of my poor quality (rough) frames. Most of the frames that I receive from these people are second quality. Additionally, both Brushy Mountain and Rossman Apiaries buy their frames from Dadant/Western Bee.


This is interesting, because the Dadant frames we bought from a local guy are horrible, the frames we bought from Brushy Mountain are miles better.


----------



## Jesus_the_only_way (Mar 17, 2006)

I have bought all my frames from Mann-Lake so far and I have been pleased. I buy the 2nd quality assembled frames, for an awesome price too.
Tom


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Ann said:


> This is interesting, because the Dadant frames we bought from a local guy are horrible, the frames we bought from Brushy Mountain are miles better.




Brushy Mountain told me that they get their frames from Western Bee Supplies. Dadant told me that they own Western Bee Supplies. Brushy Mountain has a better frame than Dadant? Go figure. 

Some shipments of frames from Dadant are O.K. However, about 80% of the frames from Dadant look like they have been cut with a dull rip saw. I am not looking forward to putting together and sanding more than 500 frames. 

I am sending for samples of frames from Mann Lake and Walter T. Kelley Co. I will order a large quantity of the better of the two frames. It sounds like both companies manufacture a good wood frame, however.


----------



## bee crazy (Oct 6, 2005)

*Don't forget Betterbee*

Hi JC I have never bought a bad frame from Kellys. but I have switched to betterbee frames, they to are a very good frame. smooth and feel a bit beefier on the top bar. I get good service from both companies.


----------



## kensfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

The BetterBee frames I purchased are kinda winpy compared to ones I've received from Brushy Mountain.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Betterbee does not manufacture their wood frames.


----------



## paintingpreacher (Jul 29, 2006)

I have tried others, but my favorite frames come from Walter Kelley.


----------



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Dadant sells 3 different grades of frames. I buy nothing but Dadant commercial grade (the middle grade) and I have always been satisfied. I have never seen one with splinters. I pick mine up directly from Dadant's dock in Paris, TX. They fit together fine. Occassionally the wedge will not break out cleanly due to wild grain, but it isn't an issue for me at all. I can't imagine what splinters you are finding that require sanding. Can you post a picture? Is it one of 100, one of 10, one of 1000?


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Ross said:


> Dadant sells 3 different grades of frames. I buy nothing but Dadant commercial grade (the middle grade) and I have always been satisfied. I have never seen one with splinters. I pick mine up directly from Dadant's dock in Paris, TX. They fit together fine. Occassionally the wedge will not break out cleanly due to wild grain, but it isn't an issue for me at all. I can't imagine what splinters you are finding that require sanding. Can you post a picture? Is it one of 100, one of 10, one of 1000?


I am a novice woodworker. (My specialty is producing saw dust!) Like most woodworkers, I run my hands over wood. I like the feel of smooth wood. I have not been getting that from Dadant’s wood frames over the past 7 years. Some of the frames look like someone is more interested in speed than quality. I am ready for a change. 

It looks like there are only three manufacturers of wood frames: Western Bee Supply, Walter T. Kelley Co. and Mann Lake. I have already eliminated Western Bee Supply, supplier of frames to Dadant, Brushy Mountain and Rossman Apiaries. I do not know where Betterbee buys their wood frames. I will get samples of wood frames from Walter T. Kelley Co and Mann Lake. It looks like Walter T. Kelley is the choice of most of the beekeepers on this thread.


----------



## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I use Mann Lake's and have been happy with them.


----------



## shawnwri (Jul 31, 2006)

I'm sticking with WT Kelly. I had significantly more splits when nailing with the frames from Brushy Mountain and like someone else said it looked like they had a dull saw blade.


----------



## kamerrill (Sep 17, 2003)

*Humble Abodes Frames*

I tried a few hundred Humble Abodes frames this year and liked them.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

kamerrill said:


> I tried a few hundred Humble Abodes frames this year and liked them.


Humble Abodes manufactures their frames. I plan to buy some sample wood frames from these people too, along with Walter T. Kelley Co. and Mann Lake. Thanks for the tip!


----------



## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

JC said:


> Humble Abodes manufactures their frames. I plan to buy some sample wood frames from these people too, along with Walter T. Kelley Co. and Mann Lake. Thanks for the tip!


Please post your impressions of the comparison.

Keith


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

I plan to post those comments. The costs of the frames are identical from the four manufacturers. The quality differences will most probably vary according to attention to detail by the employees. I am willing to pay more for freight if I can get a high quality frame consistently.


----------



## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

I prefer Walter Kelly frames. Just ordered another hundred mediums today.


----------



## Doug Virginia (Dec 11, 2006)

*frames*

Dan Miller up in Heuvelton, NY make a top quality frame. All White pine.
.60 apiece. He's my neighbor and make good equipment


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*dadant frames*

We usually buy around 10,000 commercial grade frames per year from Dadant and rarely have more than a handful of bad pieces after assembly. As far as top bar splintering we scrape each one by hand after they come through the uncapper and rarely see one that can splinter to the point that it is dangerous. I really have no idea whose are best only that Dadant has always shipped me solid functional equipment at a competitive price.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

*Frames from four manufacturers*

I have frames from all four manufacturers. Please note that I evaluated only one frame from each manufacturer. These are my first impressions of the frames:

Fit: Western Bee (Dadant) and Humble had the best fitting frames. Actually, the parts from both manufacturers are interchangeable! All of parts were snug and most (not all) of the parts fit flush. Kelley was O.K. Mann Lake had the worse fitting frame. The parts were very loose.

Finish: Kelley, Mann Lake and Humble had smooth wood. Western Bee (Dadant) had a relatively smooth finish on their frame; however, I know from experience that can change from shipment to shipment.

Design: I prefer the simple design of the end bars of Western Bee (Dadant) and Humble. The Kelley end bars have one flat edge and one V-edge. Additionally, Kelley’s end bars are thinner than the other 3 manufacturers. I congratulate Kelley on sending instructions on how to assemble the frames, however. Mann Lake uses the same concept as Kelley, but sent no instructions on how to assemble the frames!

Special Note: The Western Bee (Dadant) top bar has a wider groove (dado cut) than the other manufacturers. This may be a holdover from the time when Dadant supplied a thin wood wedge to secure the foundation. No such wedge is supplied today. I prefer the narrower dado cut in Humble’s, Kelley’s and Mann Lake’s top bars. I have to see how my plasticell foundation fits into each frame. Additionally, I personally prefer the way that Western Bee (Dadant) and Mann Lake cut the end of their end of their top bars as opposed to the straight cut that Humble and Kelley use.

Conclusion: These are only my personal opinions and observations based on only 1 frame from each manufacturer! All four manufacturers produce a quality product. I will let you know my final choice after I talk to a knowledgeable woodworker from our woodworking club.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

*Kelley #1*

My woodworking friend, who is not a beekeeper, picked Walter T. Kelley’s frame as the best frame. The Kelley frame had the best wood, the best fit and finish and the best joints. What really impressed my friend was the finger joint on the bottom bar. Of course, all of you who use Kelley frames already knew that Kelley frames were the best, didn’t you?


----------



## shawnwri (Jul 31, 2006)

*Thanks for the research*

Good review. I was considering trying out some others, but will stick with WTK.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

*Ranking of Frames*



shawnwri said:


> Good review. I was considering trying out some others, but will stick with WTK.


Thanks! I am going to buy Kelley frames too. They are #1 in our opinion.

My woodworking friend picked the Humble frame as his second choice. The quality of the wood is just as good as Kelley’s frame. I was going to buy these frames since they are interchangeable with the Western Bee (Dadant, Brushy Mountain, Rossman) frames that I already own. However, my wife told me that if I bought any of these frames, she would not help me put together frames! These frames had a really tight fit, and they were difficult for my wife to assemble. 

Mann Lake was a distant third choice. I think that Mann Lake could be #1. However, they have some design issues, in my opinion. I do not understand why they cut a “V” on the top and bottom of their end bars. The “V” design cuts down on the glue surface, and may contribute to the frame being too loose to hold together without nails.

Western Bee, who manufactures frames for Dadant, Brushy Mountain and Rossman, came in last. My friend said that they have some fit and finish issues. I think that they have some employee issues. I picked three top bars at random to show my friend. One top bar had a cross grain; the wood should not have been used for a top bar. Another top bar could have used some sanding. Either the employees pushed these top bars too fast through the saw, and/or the saw blade was dull. Only one of the three top bars passed inspection.


----------



## Lively Bee's (Dec 9, 2004)

I keep a rubber hammer around and when I get a frame that is a tight fit I just give it a wack and keep on going

I have better bee, dadant, and kelleys and I just reordered more kelly frames IMO they are the best for me


----------



## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

JC - thanks for the evaluation and the comparison. My "operation" is too small for me to be buying frames from multiple suppliers, so it is nice to have someone's opinion when they have recently held each one and compared them.


Keith


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Keith Benson said:


> JC - thanks for the evaluation and the comparison. My "operation" is too small for me to be buying frames from multiple suppliers, so it is nice to have someone's opinion when they have recently held each one and compared them.
> 
> 
> Keith


Thanks for your appreciation!


----------



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

"Oh, here's one of those Dadant frames I don't like, what do you think?" Not saying that's what happened but it's hardly an objective study. In fact, I'd say it's a biased personal opinion. Since everybody's got an opinion, here's mine:

A sample of 3 is a really poor evaluation. I use several thousand Dadant frames and I have seen two with cross grain. This is not a common problem. As for needing sanding, it's not your dining table, get over it. They don't have splinters on any that I have found. I think as a review, this is worse than no information. I am a woodworker too. In fact, I consult to Wood magazine and host on their website. Dadant frames are fine, as are the others you have mentioned. Buy the cheapest you can get, whether shipped or picked up. They all work. None have significant issues. Most all of the vendors will replace any bad parts without questions.

Now that that is out of the way, let's try a double blind study. First you need some evaluation criteria spelled out in advance with a grading system. Then you need an evaluator that doesn't know the particular frames involved, someone else might identify the vendor by the style of joint or something. Then you need someone to gather a valid sample of frames, say 3 bundles from each vendor bought at different times and places. Then you need a random draw from those samples, say 10 from each vendor. Number them randomly and mail them to your evaluator. He responds based on number only. A third person tallies the responses by number. Of course the number to vendor chart was archived before the evaluation by someone else. Publish the number chart and the vendor chart.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

*Humble Abode/Mann Lake Composite Frame*

Frame parts from Western Bee (Dadant, Brushy Mountain and Rossman), Mann Lake and Humble Abodes (1-877-423-3269) are interchangeable. My favorite composite frame is a top bar from Mann Lake, side bars from Humble Abodes, and bottom bars from either company.


----------



## MichelleB (Jan 29, 2006)

*One more for the list...*

Franz Yordy of Snow Peak Apiaries. I picked up 1200 frames from him and have assembled about half; no splinters, beefy bars, really well-made stuff. Also makes boxes. 

Snow Peak Apiaries
34769 E. Lacomb Rd. Lebanon, OR 97355
Ph: (541) 451-3752 Fax: (541) 451-2946


----------



## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

I have used a load of the seconds from Mann Lake. Have had to toss a part here and there. But for .25 i can toss a lot, which I haven't had to do yet. But I see the point. No flaws.

Maybe the Honeyman will see this thread and tell you who he buys from over in PA? I know he picks up on the way to visit with his kids. And gets them for about .46 ea when buying 1000 or more. He was showing them to me on one of my trips up that way. Superb Frames. They were grade "A" material without blemish and a perfect fit. I know he has told me who they are before. But I have to scroll up and look in the right hand corner to see what my name is


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

MichelleB said:


> Franz Yordy of Snow Peak Apiaries. I picked up 1200 frames from him and have assembled about half; no splinters, beefy bars, really well-made stuff. Also makes boxes.
> 
> Snow Peak Apiaries
> 34769 E. Lacomb Rd. Lebanon, OR 97355
> Ph: (541) 451-3752 Fax: (541) 451-2946


Thanks for the information.


----------



## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

Does anyone have links to Walter Kelly websites and Humble Adobe...? Or a phone number to order a catalog...? I've gotten pretty good med frames from Brushy Mt., recently got some deep frames from Brushy, that were a little rough and no wheres as clean cut as the med frames i bought in the past...that was disappointing....i'd like to try Humble Adobe and Walter Kelly frames....


----------



## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

Found Walter Kelly site and ordered a few med. and deep frames..also googled humble adobe, nothing...still looking for website or catalog to check out there frames...


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I think it was called "Humble Abode", not "Humble Adobe". There was a phone number for them earlier in this thread.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Kevin M said:


> Found Walter Kelly site and ordered a few med. and deep frames..also googled humble adobe, nothing...still looking for website or catalog to check out there frames...


Humble Abodes, Inc.
636 Coopers Mills Road
Windsor, Maine 04363

1-877-423-3269
(207) 549-5501
[email protected]

They do not have a web site. Call for a retail price list. Price for 100 medium frames is $0.60 each. Their frames have a very good fit and finish. Ditto for Walter Kelley. I think that you will be very happy with either company. I agree that the frames from Western Bee (Brushy Mountain, Dadant, Rossman) seem to be getting worse. That is the reason that I recently switched manufacturers after buying frames from Dadant for over 40 years.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

*Walter Kelley Frames #1 in Design*

Here is another reason that I am switching to the Kelley frames: The frames from Walter Kelley have two design features that are not available from the other three manufacturers. One side of their end bars is beveled and the other side of their end bars is flat. This design reduces the amount of propolis that the bees deposit on the “sides of frames” (page 320 of “ABC XYZ of Bee Culture”). Another design feature that the other three manufacturers do not have are finger joints on the bottom of the side bars.


----------



## Ishi (Sep 27, 2005)

I got some old frames that have(One side of their end bars is beveled and the other side of their end bars is flat.) with Blue Ribbon branded on the top bars. I always wondered who made them. Thought they might be Diamond Match when they made bee ware in Chico CA.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>This design reduces the amount of propolis that the bees deposit on the “sides of frames”

I don't think there's less propolis, in fact I'd guess there is more, but it IS easier to get your hive tool between two end bars with this design.


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Ishi, I bought thousands of frames from Diamond in Chico but the end bars were flat sided, very thick and narrower than anyone elses.
Glorybee sold the type you describe when they first started.The brand might just be someones bee company?
My favorite frames were made by an old man in Redding back in the 70s who used a lot of clear sugar pine.
I buy lots of Dadant frames now but am getting quite a few curling top bars, maybe from making them from bull pine 
lumber.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

If you compare the thickness of the wood endbars you'll find that Dadant's are slightly thicker than Kelley's. Does that make any difference? Not that I've noticed. What I like about Kelley's is that their wedge consistantly separates much more easily and cleanly than Dadant's. That alone is enough to make Kelley my preference.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

beemandan said:


> If you compare the thickness of the wood endbars you'll find that Dadant's are slightly thicker than Kelley's. Does that make any difference? Not that I've noticed. What I like about Kelley's is that their wedge consistantly separates much more easily and cleanly than Dadant's. That alone is enough to make Kelley my preference.


I hear you. I just finished putting together 100 Dadant wedge top bar frames for my cut comb honey. I had to buy some extra wedge cleats from Brushy Mountain to replace the Dadant wedge cleats that I broke, etc.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I had to beg Dave W to not make his so well. He had so many chamfered edges and such smooth wood, I told him I didn't want cabinet work. If you want quality and exactly what you want...


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>I had to beg Dave W to not make his so well . . .

That's a complatint that I dont hear often  (thanx)

MrBEE was so easy to please!


I wish I could figure out a way to make my frames CHEAPER!
I would like for everyone to have a few thousand


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Dave W said:


> >I had to beg Dave W to not make his so well . . .
> 
> That's a complatint that I dont hear often  (thanx)
> 
> ...


Dave, please post your phone number and e-mail address for those of us who would like to purchase some of your quality frames.

Are you able to copy and paste your price sheet? I am interested in prices for 6 ¼” frames in quantities of 10, 50, 100, 500 and 1,000 frames. Additionally, I would be interested in prices for three styles of frames; Bush, wedge top bar with a grooved bottom bar, and grooved top bar with a grooved bottom bar.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> I had to beg Dave W to not make his so well. He had so many chamfered edges and such smooth wood, I told him I didn't want cabinet work. If you want quality and exactly what you want...


Michael, can I use Dave's "Bush frames" to produce cut comb honey? I would like to get away from eating thin foundation that could be contaminated.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, can I use Dave's "Bush frames" to produce cut comb honey? I would like to get away from eating thin foundation that could be contaminated.

Foundationless frames work great for cut comb.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >Michael, can I use Dave's "Bush frames" to produce cut comb honey? I would like to get away from eating thin foundation that could be contaminated.
> 
> Foundationless frames work great for cut comb.


Can I space the foundationless frames between my regular 6 1/4" frames that I use for extracting, or do I need to put all 10 foundationless frames into one super?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Can I space the foundationless frames between my regular 6 1/4" frames that I use for extracting, or do I need to put all 10 foundationless frames into one super?

Either will probably work fine. Putting them between drawn combs in a super may not work as expected as they often draw the drawn ones out thicker and ignore the empty spaces. Putting them between foundation usually works fine.


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

JC et al . . .

>I am interested in prices for 6 ¼” frames in quantities of 10, 50, 100, 500 and 1,000 frames. Additionally, I would be interested in prices for three styles of frames; Bush, wedge top bar with a grooved bottom bar, and grooved top bar with a grooved bottom bar.

I can make ANYTHING you want.

A "Bush" frames has 1-1/4 side bars, "V" bottom top bar, and a solid bb.
I can make any style of tp or bb you like and can make the side bars as thick or as wide as you want.

The BIG PROBLEM is the price. Since each piece of each frame is "hand-made" the final product is "just what you want" but is not mass produced. When you see prices like 60 cents per frame from others, they are a true bargin. I have seen prices BELOW may cost for materials.

Additional info can be found by doing a BeeSource search using "Custom Frame Prices".

I WOULD like to make YOUR custom frames


----------



## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Bizzybee said:


> I have used a load of the seconds from Mann Lake. Have had to toss a part here and there. But for .25 i can toss a lot, which I haven't had to do yet. But I see the point. No flaws.
> 
> Maybe the Honeyman will see this thread and tell you who he buys from over in PA? I know he picks up on the way to visit with his kids. And gets them for about .46 ea when buying 1000 or more. He was showing them to me on one of my trips up that way. Superb Frames. They were grade "A" material without blemish and a perfect fit. I know he has told me who they are before. But I have to scroll up and look in the right hand corner to see what my name is


I think honeyman buys the frames from BeeLine Apiaries or some name like that in PA. They advertise in the Bee Mags.


----------



## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

I've only tried Better Bee and Lapp's. I liked both, with the Lapp's edging out Betterbee. Due to no visa or master card (cut up and closed) I usually don't have time to order from WTK. Am curious about David W. frames now though. There are a couple locals that I am checking out this fall and winter also.


----------

