# lost all(most) all of my hives



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Sorry about your loss. 
What makes you think mites are to blame? have you done counts? what where the numbers like?

I don't know anything about your location so it is hard for me to make any suggestions. Personally; I would take what you have left and work on building up again.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

The 1st. thing I'll say is don't be discouraged. We all at some point have years like this for one reason or another. In 1996, we averaged 240 lbs of honey per hive with 2 queen units and a record flow. Also it was our 1st. year of heavy varroa in this area. We lost 40 of 50 that winter. What a blow! I felt the same way you do right now. I'm pretty certain every decade old beekeeper here can share stories like this (many worse). 

Instead, go through each hive, preferably with an experianced beekeeper, and make notes on what you see and get an idea of what the experianced beek has for an opinion. Also bring the facts here and throw them down, pictures are good if you can get them online, and see what opinions we can give you.

Next clean out the dead outs and store your equipment to prevent mouse damage and later on wax moth damage.

Next, order 2 or 3 packages for the upcoming season and start with a renewed attitude and learn from this years' mistakes. Make a plan for manging your hives with a good Integrated Pest Management strategy and if you want to go organic begin by incorporating as many non-chemical pest strategies as you can while excepting that when you idenfity an acute problem you may have to intervene with a chemical life preserver. I think one key to organic is to closely monitor you hives and use low impact treatments like dusting before you have a big problem. (or chemical controls for that matter)

Get your information out locally that you'll retreive swarms and perhaps you'll get a few free hives.

Next accept the fact that just because some are having success at beekeeping with powdered sugar or no-chemicals, most still are not. Be a skeptic and research everthing thorougly from any particular source or discpline. I think if it is possible to organic it takes time and experiance to achieve. I think you'll find guys like Michael and Dennis spent years, money and some disappointing losses to get where they are now.

One thing is certain, in the spring, when you are installing some new nucs or packages on a nice spring day and the girls are buzzing around your head all the despair you have now will be turned to hope for the new season and you'll be better equiped to succeed.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I am sorry for your losses.

Varroa is one of many possibilities. Look for Varroa feces in the brood cells (little white specs). Look for dead Varroa on the bottom with the dead bees. Look for signs of starvation. Look for "K" winged bees. Deformed winged bees. "K" wing would be more likely to be tracheal mites. Deformed wings would be more likely to be Varroa. Bees scattered and not clustered well also might be Tracheal mites.

Oxalic is much safer than the typical pesticides used for Varroa here in the US (Organophosphates and Fluvalinate) and it might be of use to you. If you monitor Varroa mite levels (sugar rolls or sticky boards etc.) you should know when you're having trouble. If you get or make an oxalic acid vaporizer you should be able to treat anytime by simply pulling off the supers and treat.

Sometimes they just don't go into winter with enough young bees to make keep the cluster big enough until spring.


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

Sasha, 

You have some very nice boxes of comb to use for swarm traps.
You should have quite a bit of nice organically managed honey left to enjoy.
Save a few frames of honey and pollen to give to the swarms you catch to help them prepare for next winter.

Dead-outs discourage me too, but the feeling is hard to remember in May.


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## beenovice (Jun 19, 2007)

Sasha I am sorry to hear of your loss but as everything in life ! Don't give up !


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

*Don't give up!*



Sasha said:


> Lost all hives (10) this winter. Probably from varroa. Used only sugar dusting in the autumn.
> 
> I am not sure I will remain a beekeeper
> 
> ...


Sasha, don't give up! When the horse throws you off, you need to get right back on (so to speak)! This experience will be good for you to learn from and progress. If you have equipement I'd try again with a few colonies.

-Nathanael


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## kmartin (Apr 15, 2007)

Sasha,

I am sorry for your losses. If you can, don't give up.

I'm intrigued by your tag line



> "Do nothing. Time is too precious to waste." Buddha


For some reason, it reminds my of MB's



> "Everthing <sic> works if you let it."


I like them both.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I guess mine does say "everthing"... I don't even look at it. I think I'll fix that.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

I am sorry about your 100% loss!
Can you tell me the queen stock and the source of your hives.
I need to know the queen source as I am collecting data for my files.
I am a queen breeder located in Ventura County, Southern Calif.
one out of the ten should have survived. But, I may be wrong.
What was your frame count of bees going into fall-early winter?
Did you feed Fumagillin in syrup for winter stores?
How old were your queens?
What are your local floral sources?
I know that's a lot of questions. You need to know what happen to your bees the first time and not repeat winter losses.
You are open about the losses and hopefully you can prevent future losses. 
Try to keep a bee log so that you can use it for future references.
P.S. Can I export my queens into your country?
Best regards,
Ernie


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Likewise, I'm sorry for your loss. Having been there myself, I had to decide to find the courage to move forward. Sometimes I had to find the money to move forward, and many times money was more scarce than courage.

We have a saying, "Tomorrow is another day." We have more opportunties ahead. Don't let this setback kill your enthusiasm.

Best of luck!

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

I have heard of losses here in Tennessee like this. One beekeeper lost all but 13 of 80. His problem was that he did not treat with fumigilin for Nosema. I myself hate the thought of putting chemicals in my hives, but I cannot risk such a loss. This year I medicated some as usual with Checkmite and menthol and some I medicated with formic acid. I may switch over to formic next year. Sorry for your loss. DO NOT GET DISCOURAGED. BEEKEEPING IS TOO FUN TO GIVE UP ON.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{His problem was that he did not treat with fumigilin for Nosema.}

Very Prudent point, some years it's not eveything you treat for it's the one you miss or the new you did not see on the Horizon.


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

Hi Guys!

Thanks a lot for kind words and encouragement! 

Beesource rocks, this is one of the best forums I have ever participated and the best bee forum definitely.
When I start again with my bees, you people will be the one who had influenced me with your positive thinking.

Yes I need to think clearly and learn about the Why and How of this. I will definitely change my beekeeping technique and will use IPM until I don't learn a lot more on bees and organic approaches. Maybe I wanted to much for a beginner ( have few beekeeping seasons behind but still feel I have a lot to learn). Hope to use this valuable group of beekeepers as a source of bee wisdom a lot more.

First I need to try to figure out what happened. Next I will gather my equipment and properly store combs. Then need to arrange to purchase some nucs for the spring. I feel the biggest problem is money for me, because here its a kind of bad economical situation, and I have really invested a lot of resources ( by local standards) and not really profited almost nothing, so sometimes I ask myself is this just a very expensive hobby? I wanted it to grow steadily to small income producer but had almost no success so far. (strange climate patterns-last summer heavy drought, season before that , rainy spring and summer)
But I like the sound and smell of bees, nothing more beautiful than working in the field and opening of the hives with bees singing all around!

Yes will get up and fight back. What doesn't kill me, makes me only stronger! At least until I have enough money to buy new swarms of bees 

Best regards, and thanks a lot to you all,

Sasha


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## mistergil (May 24, 2007)

That's the spirit!!
Experience usually has price, you can only do better next time.


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

This is my second year (going into third) that I have been beekeeping. I made only a half a gallon of honey the first year and did not get out of the hole. However, in this second year my investments in the business have returned four fold. I would stay with it, develop a clientelle, and sell the honey you make. I have had alot of fun with it as a hobby the last two years and am considering getting a business license this year. My biggest piece of advice is to get a local mentor and feed fumigilin-B in one gallon of sugar water in the first part of March. This step alone will do wonders for your honey production. Fumigilin-B is amazing and should increase your honey production by 300%. I'm glad to see you stick with it. We need all the beekeepers we can get in this country.


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

CSbees said:


> I'm glad to see you stick with it. We need all the beekeepers we can get in this country.


"This country"!? Last I checked Serbia hadn't joined the United States yet...



CSbees said:


> My biggest piece of advice is to get a local mentor and feed fumigilin-B in one gallon of sugar water in the first part of March. This step alone will do wonders for your honey production. Fumigilin-B is amazing and should increase your honey production by 300%.


*CSbees*, have you found Fumigilin B to really do what it's advertisd as. I'm still really llearly because of it's cost! But will it really pay off for itself?

*Sasha*, great to see you back on the bandwagon! We all have hard times, but stick with it and it'll pay off!

-Nathanael


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Sasha:

Glad that you aren't giving up. Two winters ago I lost 36 out of 42 hives. I had treated, tested, and monitored for everything I could think of all year, and went into winter with extremely strong hives. I lost them anyway. This year I built them back up to 20 by making splits and capturing swarms. I am going to lose about 50% with no treatments at all. Thats a lot better score than I got with all the work and expense the year before.

If you still have the equipment, you already have most of the expense covered. I wouldn't reccomend spending a lot of money on packages, just getting enough to get you started. If you spend the same time and effort collecting swarms, some of the swarms will come from feral stock that knows how to survive in your location. If you can keep those hives you will have the basis to build back up and in two or three years you will have survivor bees instead of welfare bees.

In this country a lot of effort is being put in to breeding disease resistant bees, and ironicly, the base stock for some of these breeding probrams is the caucasion or russian bees imported from Yugoslavia. I would suspect that the feral bees in your area would have similar genetics because the survivor colonies can move out over large areas by swarming, and you probably would be large steps ahead of us with just a few swarms.

Use what you have available. If it is alive in a tree for generations, it can probably do well in a box in your yard.

I have seen estimates that say only 10% of feral swarms survive the winter. If that is so, then that 10% has to represent the ones best adapted to your environment and that is the stock to breed from. Mother Nature has been doing this a lot longer than man has, and I bet she knows what she is doing.


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Bio beekeeping is running amuck.................. fumi-- what


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

Bee-Haven Apiary,

I am an adamant supporter of Fumigilin-B. I chose not to feed it to my then, only hive. It made a half-gallon of honey. I fed Fumigilin in October and then in the last part of February, and this hive made about 30 gallons of honey this year. I will pay the price in the years to come. 

Analysis:

When the bees have nosema even mildly, their royal jelly production goes down exponentially. If you treat with Fumigilin this exponentially increases their ability to produce royal jelly. This increased production of royal jelly means that the queen gets fed more, therefore lays more, the increase in brood is fed surplus of royal jelly in the larval stage and is therefore more healthy. More bees ultimately= more capability to produce honey with the larger work force. 1000 motivated people can do a whole lot more than 300 downtrodden.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Bizzybee said:


> Bio beekeeping is running amuck.................. fumi-- what


Yes, very mucky here. 
I’m amused how we here make ‘long distance’ recommendations 
for causes of losses, being due to failure to use treatments???
How do you know that is the reason?
How do you know its Nosema and not dysentery?

IMO, Fumigilin for Nosema is a waste of money. 
If your bees are susceptible to Nosema, then you 
probably need to find better stock, or change 
management practices. 

Joe


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

You da man Joe!!


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

naturebee, 

First of all all stocks of bees are succecptible to nosema disease. This is equivalet to saying only weak humans can contract the HIV virus. It is not a question of stock, but rather the exposure to it. Next, fumigilin is a waste of money if you do not plan on making any honey. I have increased my honey production by about 1000% by using this. You have the right to disagree, however, denouncing a medication that statistics have shown to increase honey production is not a prudent endeavor. I will continue to use this because I believe in it and I will continue to make honey.


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

First of all fumigillin doesn't belong in Biological Beekeeping.

Aside from that, weak humans that contact HIV are likely to live months where a healthy human can live for years. But then there isn't anything similar in comparison between HIV and Nosema is there.

I have never had a problem with Nosema and my hives produce quite well provided nature is kind enough to supply the means for them to make it. I hardly think that shoveling anything in the hive is warranted unless there is a reason for doing so. I certainly would expect that I will see the problem sooner or later. But then I will deal with that when the time comes. And it will be after I see what the bees capabilities are.

How would you have any idea if your bees are going to gain the ability to cope with the problem or even if you do have a problem to be fixing if you make it part of your routine to treat your hives.

But then I don't imagine any of this matters. When by treating you either don't care for biological beekeeping or just don't understand the concept of what is trying to be gained?


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

CSbees said:


> naturebee,
> First of all all stocks of bees are succecptible to nosema disease.


I agree, but resistant stocks are less likely to be susceptible to nosema.
And you can only get those by breeding for them and not treating for
nosema which enables you to identify susceptible stocks. 

I have 4 examples below of persons that say nosema resistance in bees is
possible and some strains are more susceptible. The 4th example being one that might intrest you. 
So you see, breeding nosema resistant bees is possible.

The BIBBA says:
“Caucasian bees have poor resistance to Nosema disease and this may lead to heavy winter losses.”
http://www.angus.co.uk/bibba/bibborig.html 

From the BBA:
“…Dark European Bee…”
“They have greater resistance to Nosema“
http://www.bbka.org.uk/articles/spring_management.php

“Some inoculated queens survived and were found
free of spores, suggesting that selection for resistance to nosema is possible.”
http://www.mdac.state.ms.us/organizations/mshoneybee/Library/Newsletters/10-2006.pdf

“..And while it may irk some that i say this, for the time being the commercial operators need ot pay their bills and make some pocket change. But this problem is still being looked at as an (either or), it need not be. There is evidence and indeed studies regarding resistance to nosema and if there is stock in Europe that has come through this, there is also indications of traits yet to be defined, from which a bee that can handle the nosema diseases…” Chrissy Shaw
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cach...to+nosema"+honeybees&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us



CSbees said:


> You have the right to disagree, however, denouncing a medication that statistics have shown to increase honey production is not a prudent endeavor. I will continue to use this because I believe in it and I will continue to make honey.


I just am not one to think that bees are at the mercy of every disease out there.
I do not believe that we need to protect bees from all things.
I believe that bees have the tools necessary to thrive, and will do so if we allow 
them to do so, OR promote breeding practices that let them help themselves as
nature has equipped all living things with the necessities of survival thru selecting
out the susceptible. 

I would not have mentioned my POV except for that I thought I had more rights to denounce the use of treatments on the ‘Biological Beekeeping’ forum than one might in promoting them on this forum. 

Best Wishes,
Joe


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## mobees (Jul 26, 2004)

*Chemicals and bees*

My attitude has always been. I try to avoid chemicals at all costs
but if I have to use them to stay in operation then I have to. I think
one of the most important steps are regular inspections. Just a quick
check every couple, three weeks can really make a difference.

A weak hive going into winter is probably a dead hive next spring.


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

You make a good point Bizzybee. However, one can, if dissecting to far into this subject deem "biological beekeeping" an oxymoron of sorts. If one wants to eradicate all human elements biological existance of bees should really be bees living out in the wild in a tree, not a hive.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

CSbees said:


> You make a good point Bizzybee. However, one can, if dissecting to far into this subject deem "biological beekeeping" an oxymoron of sorts. If one wants to eradicate all human elements biological existance of bees should really be bees living out in the wild in a tree, not a hive.


Humm, the Word crafting angle. 
These discussions always take the turn to word crafting sooner or later.

OK, Lets look at how the trem 'Biological Beekeeping' is crafted as a word.

And I see NO such eradication of human elements in the trem biological beekeeping! 

Hence how the term was crafted:
Biological = (Having to do with biology) and Beekeeping = (the keeping of bees)
“Keeping of bees” therefore allowing for the human element in the practice of biological beekeeping. 

However, in using the word crafting technique:
One can, if dissecting to far into this subject of Fumigilin treatments on bees deem this sort of practice "chemical beekeeping” an oxymoron of sorts considering what has made beekeeping possible is the biological aspect found only in the environment. If one wants to eradicate all biological elements in employing chemical beekeeping, the bees should really be living in a laboratory, and isolated from the biological aspects that are essential to bees and found ONLY in the environment. 

Best Wishes,
Joe


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{I’m amused how we here make ‘long distance’ recommendations 
for causes of losses, being due to failure to use treatments???}

I think Sasha made the point he believed he lost his hives because he did not treat for Varroa. I'm assuming he has an observation or reason for thinking this. Since he has not indicated they starved most experianced beekeeepers could likely suspect losing 10 out of 10 hives would have a high likelyhood of being a result of pest or disease. What would you think killed them if not that? I don't see anyone telling him to do anything, I see concerned beekeepers telling their experiances and encouraging him to research before doing anything. That's not amusing, that's what this is all about, beekeepers helping beekeepers.

Joe, and other bio guys, Sasha may be in a much different place econmic and experiance wise than we . Most reached their goals over years of learing. Perhaps rather than us arguing the point of treat vs not treat it would be of more value to post what steps and practices have been learned to reach organic goals. He obviously has no stock to start with so is wide open for chosing bees dependant on what is available in his area. By listing your practices in success Sasha gains organic management techniques which will allow him some level of success in this early stage and not end up throwing in the towel next year because bees kept in un-natural numbers in any environment need some special management to help them survive, organic or treated.

This way he has a better chance of reaching his organic goals without the years of trials.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Joel,

I agree with much of your letter!
You know as well as I do, that more often than not, a new bees diagnosis
needs to be verified by an experienced beekeepers opinion, and pictures
and detailed descriptions, for it is not always correct. 

And you do express this concern in giving this advice 
in the quote below which I support 100% as most EXCELLENT ADVICE !!!



Joel said:


> go through each hive, preferably with an experianced beekeeper, and make notes on what you see and get an idea of what the experianced beek has for an opinion. Also bring the facts here and throw them down, pictures are good if you can get them online, and see what opinions we can give you..


But I did not see Sasha make express any sort of observation which would lead
me to conclude the advice for the application drugs such as Fumigilin was warranted. 
Would you support that advice as a solution to this Sasha’s problem? 

In quote below, you contradict your previously made ‘excellent advice’
by not considering ,detailed description’s - Experienced beekeepers POV, or pictures 
that you recommended as preference.



Joel said:


> I think Sasha made the point he believed he lost his hives because he did not treat for Varroa. I'm assuming he has an observation or reason for thinking this.


Sure Sasha has a reason for thinking this!
What happened to the advice of: 
“go through each hive, preferably with an experienced beekeeper” (Joel)
“bring the facts here and throw them down, pictures” (Joel)

Did Sasha do that yet?

Are you conflicting your own statements ‘just’ so you can take a position opposing mine for confrontational sport? Or will you stand behind your most excellent advice expressed previously? 



Joel said:


> Since he has not indicated they starved most experianced beekeeepers could likely suspect losing 10 out of 10 hives would have a high likelyhood of being a result of pest or disease. What would you think killed them if not that?


In lieu of 
“likely suspect” s - “high likelyhood” s and “What would you think” s

I would refer Sasha back to your wonderful advice which I strongly support:

“go through each hive, preferably with an experianced beekeeper, and make notes on what you see and get an idea of what the experianced beek has for an opinion. Also bring the facts here and throw them down, pictures are good if you can get them online, and see what opinions we can give you.” (Joel)




Joel said:


> I don't see anyone telling him to do anything, I see concerned beekeepers telling their experiences and encouraging him to research before doing anything. That's not amusing, that's what this is all about, beekeepers helping beekeepers.


You can help them best by teaching the new beekeeepers 
proper investigative tactics in determining the “actual cause”
of the problem FIRST in lieu of advice of emptying the drug cabinet
into the hives first, before knowing the problem. 

And that was the point of my statment:

"I’m amused how we here make ‘long distance’ recommendations 
for causes of losses, being due to failure to use treatments???"

,,,before the facts are known.

Joe


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Sorry to hear that Sasha...... It is a frustrating, depressing moment to be sure. I hope you pick up the smoker again. Nothing comes close to the feeling of holding a nice frame full of bees......... and all that goes with it. I agree with others on oxalic being a good choice on problem varroa counts.


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

naturebee, 

I was just trying to make a point. However, even though you are against using chemicals in beekeeping, even the pure natural honey that your bees make is a mixture of chemical compounds.


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## suprstakr (Feb 10, 2006)

NOW thats stretching it a bit CS Bees .


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

CSbees said:


> naturebee,
> 
> I was just trying to make a point. However, even though you are against using chemicals in beekeeping, even the pure natural honey that your bees make is a mixture of chemical compounds.


Hello CS,

Personally, I don’t care much about what others choose to put in their hives.
I’m not “against using chemicals in beekeeping”. I distinguish between chemicals that prop up or give artificial advantage to a colony and those that don’t. I do accept the use of bee repellants such as bee-Quick, and swarm lures because these things are not artificially propping up a colony. 

My point in speaking up was that it’s not good beekeeping management to dump treatments into hives, or take any corrective action before proper investigation to determine the exact cause.

It occurs much to often on these lists, and also on this thread that advice to throw chemicals at the problem were offered up to Sasha before the diagnosis and extent of the problem were determined.

All I’m asking here is to “Get your diagnosis first” then decide on what action to take!

Some here believe that helping other beekeepers is simply prescribing treatments. BUT you teach the new bee NOTHING by doing this. It is much more important to diagnosis the problem before determining the solution. Teaching a new bee to ’diagnosis problems’ is a tool they can use forever. Teaching them to dump treatments in hives teaches them nothing. 

Joe


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

Well put.


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