# Second brood box, above or below?



## Scorpster (Jun 11, 2009)

Although most beeks agree that bees build/store from the top down, it seems that most suggest adding the second brood box on top and "seeding" it with a couple frames? This seems contradictory to me, and would suggest the second box be put below and possibly "seeded". Has my research been unbalanced, or am I missing something?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Place a box with dark combs above and below a single story colony, and see what direction the cluster moves. I bet you'll find that they move up.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Above.
I suggest that you try develop a Bee Library to further your knowlege.
Bees have a natural instict to store honey above the brood. 
it's also warmer above the brood nest.
Good Luck,
Ernie


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

My bees move up. They are reluctant to move down, especially if they are in deep bodies. In a bee tree they build their comb with it ancored to the top of the cavity. They work down because they have no choice.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

They work down because they have no choice. 

And, they store the honey above the brood nest.
As they get stronger they may store the honey to the sides of the brood.
Ernie


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## Scorpster (Jun 11, 2009)

Warmth, maybe that's the reason. Still seems odd that any creature would not simply build as it has too in the wild. Instinct being such a strong infulence. But your right, they don't really have any choice in the wild. But up or down is not going to change where they put what in the end?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

In Langstroth equipment with boxes stacked above one another the cluster will move up into boxes before it will move down. Drawing comb, they will draw in a box above a brood nest before they will draw below. Storing food they will store above before storing below. The queens prefer to move up to lay, not down.

The actual placement of brood, pollen and honey will be in the same relative positions in wild comb or managed hives. Brood will have honey and pollen above and to the sides of it. If there is an empty box on the bottom board the bees will store pollen there because they usually place pollen close to the entrance of the colony. 

When the colony is closing down brood laying in the fall the brood cluster will be on the end of the frame closest to the entrance of the colony. As winter progresses the cluster moves toward the other end of the frame using the food stored there first, then when that is gone, the cluster moves into the box above. Any honey stored in a box below the cluster in the late summer and fall is moved to a position above and to the sides of the brood cluster. I have never seen a cluster move down to food. 

I believe when a beekeeper says bees move/work down it must be because they have reached the top box in the stack and as nectar comes in they are forced down because of the desire to store food above brood. I believe it is more efficient for the beekeeper to reverse boxes or add boxes above to allow the bees to move up rather than be forced down as nectar comes in.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Creatures in the wild are bent on survival. Place a open garbage can with your dinner scraps in it next to a cherry tree with ripe fruit and see which a bear will go after first. :scratch: If you want the bees to expand more rapidly place the box on top...if you want to see "what happens" place it on the bottom, but as you can see from the replies it's been pretty well documented they will move up more rapidly then downward. Good luck.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

If you try supering under the brood nest the bees may chew off the wax foundation and move it into the nest. I stored a few frames of wax foundation to use as needed in a bee yard and i noticed a feww bees helping themselves to the foundation.
I lost over 130 frames of foundation that was stored for the next season to the wax collecting bees. It was a very fragerant 7 sheets per pound type.
Ernie


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## Scorpster (Jun 11, 2009)

AR Beekeeper said:


> In Langstroth equipment with boxes stacked above one another the cluster will move up into boxes before it will move down. Drawing comb, they will draw in a box above a brood nest before they will draw below. Storing food they will store above before storing below. The queens prefer to move up to lay, not down.


So everyone IS in agreement that bees go up, yet has anyone seen a wild hive that was buillt from the ground up? If this is the way the prefer it, why don't they do it? It's probably easier and way more sturdy to start comb on the ground level and work up?



> I believe when a beekeeper says bees move/work down it must be because they have reached the top box in the stack and as nectar comes in they are forced down because of the desire to store food above brood. I believe it is more efficient for the beekeeper to reverse boxes or add boxes above to allow the bees to move up rather than be forced down as nectar comes in.


When I said move down I was referring to how they built in the wild, and after milliions of years of building down, why do they have to be "forced" to do it? Maybe it only "seems" like they build down in the wild. Maybe those with large TBH's can comment here, do they build outwards to the sides of the hive before working down? What does the comb build pattern look like when there's lots of choice for the bees (without human intervention)? 

Thanks for all your replies.


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