# Nectar Flow...



## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

I'm new at beek this year,one hive...other than opening the hive and looking at the frames, how can you tell if there is a nectar flow going on..? My bees seem very, very busy..there bringing in three different coloured pollens, and alot are coming in with no pollen, hopefully there carrying in nectar...


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

It's a great sign that they are bringing in pollen. They are most likely bringing back nectar also.

What wildflowers are blooming in your area right now? 

If you could give a little more information about your hive it would be easier to advise on what to look for..... How many brood boxes? Number of frames of brood? Supers? Drawn comb or foundation?


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## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

hi Mike....There's a 4-5 acre feild in back of my house loaded with a low growing yellow flower, i honestly don't know what they are, they have a fern like folage.i think thats where there getting a lemon-yellow pollen, there also bringing in a ivory colored and dark tan pollen. The golden rod hasn't started to bloom yet by me. I live on the eastern tip of long Island,NY.I have two deep brood boxes..not exactly sure how many frames of brood, two supers, one full deep of capped honey, and a shallow 60% full, some capped...i started with wax foundations and I have Italians bees...I can smell a strong sweet odor all around the hive...my 24hr mite count was about 24 this morning...i've only been using FGMO so far for mites, i'm going to powder sugar in a couple days, trying to avoid chemicals if i can.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Sounds like you are probably in a minor fall flow right now, Kevin. I would recommend adding another super, if you have one, just in case you end up with a good fall surplus. The bees will need approximately 13-14 deep frames of capped honey to get through the winter and it sounds like you may have that already. Any additional stores you can take for your use. 

Hopefully some NY locals will help out and give their advice. Sounds like you are doing very well with your colony.


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## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

thanks Mike, does anyone else have any ideas about reconizing a nectar flow in progress...? Thanks for any advice and comments....


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

Put your hive on a platform scale. It is pretty interesting to watch the daily change in weight.

When the hive is gaining weight rapidly, a flow is probably in progress.


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## BillS (Feb 2, 2005)

Kevin,
You look for uncapped cells full of honey. You will find it all around and over the brood nest.Also, I find when there is a good flow on the activity at the entrence is almost frantic.
You are smelling goldenrod around your hives. Be glad you smell it! Around us(I am in Jamesport on the north fork)goldenrod is your fall flow, and is what the bees will winter on. Some seasons I get some for me too. I also use FGMO. It is all that I have used for two years now. I fog once a week as soon as the bees begin to fly, and I stop when they do. It has worked well for me. 

Bill Schaefer


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## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

Thanks Patrick and Bill....Bill,thats good to hear, your only using FGMO and have been doing well..I see golden rod around, but it hasn't bloomed yet, at least where i'm looking anyway, i guess the bees have found some golden rod blooming somewhere. What kind of bees do you have...? I trying to locate some Carniolan packages for some new hives next spring, going to try the small cell full drawn permacombs in all med.supers, any idea where i can find some...? I know BetterBee upstate Ny has Carniolan nucs, most likely deep frames, which i can't use...thanks..


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## BillS (Feb 2, 2005)

Kevin,
Over the years I have had mainly Italians. I tryed Carniolans, and they did not do well for me. That is not to say they will not do well for you though, try em. What I have now are bees I caught in swarm traps. They are darker than the Italians. They seem to be more in tune with the flows by us. They build up early for the spring Locust flow, and they winter well. I don't know if the are true ferals, or not but I like them.
By the way you need two full deeps for winter by us. It is not that cold in the winter(they eat more)and we have a late spring = you need a well stocked hive.

Bill Schaefer


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## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

Bill, what did you find unfavorable with the Carniolans..? Those darker ferals you have sound good..wanna sell some...lol I was atrracted to the idea of getting Carnoilans because there said to need less winter stores and are a calmer bee to work with,and good fast spring build-up...My Italians are good workers, but the v. mites are always a concern and they can get kinda nasty when i'm in the hive..plus they need more winter stores..I don't know how the Carni's will take to drawn permacomb...Well, i'll try them...
Do you use any plastice frames at all, or just wood...?


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## BillS (Feb 2, 2005)

Kevin,

I found the carniolans made an awful lot of propolis and burr comb. as far as the Italians being nasty(spelled defensive), that always seems to happen this time of year. The colonies are large = defensive and they are all on the look out for robbers = defensive.
Nasty would be bees that chase you when you are done working them. But any large hive will get up set if you dig too deep in the hive. I typicly do not do into the brood nest after I have supers on the hive unless I realy need to, like I want to steal some brood frames for a split or I want to open up the brood nest for swarm prevention.
My hives are all wood.
As to selling some of my dark bees, ask me in the spring. We could probly work some thing out. I have one colonie that should be a real buster next spring.
I'm not sure how we can work around your med. plastic frames though.

Bill Schaefer


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## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

Hi Bill, that would be great if i could buy some of your bees in the spring.By the way, i'm in Easthampton. Feral bees naturally make a smaller cell comb, right..? Of course i'm doing this all med.super thing so everything is interchangable and i can try to get the upper hand with V. mites...Someone is also selling deep small cell plastic drawn combs.I guess if i were to get some of your bees, i'd have to continue using deep supers until i get an established hive, then i could ad a med. super or two as they need more brood space..Does that make sense...? I don't know of any other way, that i would get them started on drawn med.plactic comb....It would be nice if i could just try to introduce them into a med.permacomb hive, like one would with a package of bees...do you think that would work with ferals like yours, just a queen and a couple lbs of bees and then feed sugar syrup...?
I stand corrected in my wording, defensive Italians, not nasty...







i don't know how the burr comb and propolis thing would be using plastic comb, compared to wood frames and i assume wax foundations like you have.
John Seets who sell the permacomb does recommend the Italians for use with his permacomb, they seem to accept it well...But, if it works out that i can get some of your bees , i'd sure like to give them a try on permacomb. I know Mike Bush has some permacomb and has feral bee stock.I don't know if he is using permacomb with his feral stock.
Theres alot talk about regression, which i honestly don't understand yet,as far as i can figure its breeding smaller bees to fit small/natural comb, i doubt its that simple...lol 
Oh yeah, this newbie has plenty to learn...! Thanks Bill, i'm enjoying your help...


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

Kevin your plan sounds good. I've got ferals from Michael Bush on permacomb from John Seets that I dipped in paraffin and I don't treat for mites and the bees are doing fine. 
My bees accept permcomb fine. I mix and match it with wood and wire. I use some 4.9mm foundation and some foundationless. Any drawn comb larger than 4.9mm, that is not drone comb, goes to the melter.
The dipped-permacomb is great because it is instant small-cell.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Feral bees naturally make a smaller cell comb, right..?

If they were raised on natural sized cells or on small cell. Genetics are one thing. The size of the bee is another thing. The size of the bee is related to the size of the comb and the size of the comb is related to the size of the bee.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

>I know Mike Bush has some permacomb and has feral bee stock.

Yes.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueens.htm

>I don't know if he is using permacomb with his feral stock.

About half waxed PermaComb and half foundationless frames.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

>Theres alot talk about regression, which i honestly don't understand yet,as far as i can figure its breeding smaller bees to fit small/natural comb, i doubt its that simple...

Actually it's much simpler. It does not involve breeding at all. It's just letting the bees build their own comb and then letting the bees raised in that comb build their own comb and then you have natural sized bees.


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## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

Thanks Michael, i appericate your comments... I know i have alot to learn, and i'm sure interested in the way you use all med.supers , small/natural cell and feral bees...
When i know what i'm doing a little better, i may be requesting to buy some of your black queens, if i can't get any locally...I'm going to try setting some swarm traps in the spring and may be able to buy some ferals locally...


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## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

Thanks Patrick, sounds like your doing a good job getting it all together..








I like the mite control advantage of small cell and i'm looking forward to increased honey production by using permacomb...have you noticed an increase in honey production since you've been using permacomb. I read that because permacomb is already fully drawn, the bees spend more time collecting nectar,etc... increasing honey by up to 50%...! Thats a big increase...! do you think its true..? How many permacombs are you working...?


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## BillS (Feb 2, 2005)

Kevin,

We can make a nuk with two deep frames full of brood and three med frames with foundation (small cell). We would need a filler under the three med frames to avoid haveing the bees pull comb on the bottoms.We shake in a crap load of bees , let them raise a queen and built up into the med frames.Thats when you take them home.You move them into two med boxs with frames. Both of them need two frames left out. This gives room for the deep frames to hang down. You would want to move the two deep frames out as soon as you can. Replace them with med frames and if God is in our corner, your off and running.This way you bees dont have to waste all that work on a deep that you don't want. By the way, the state inspector says you need to winter in three medium boxs around here.
My bees are in the first regresion down to small cell, so small cell should work ok.
Lets see how the winter goes.

Bill Schaefer


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## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

Bill....thats sounds like a plan...







I sure hope this winter is kind to your bees and lady luck is smiling on your plan...lol


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'm going to try setting some swarm traps in the spring and may be able to buy some ferals locally...

That's what I would do.


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## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

During a fall flow in NC, what is the average weight gain of a moderate to strong hive. I live in the peidmont area, and the golden rod is starting to bloom fairly good now. I have three different colors of pollen coming into the hive, and I have an entrance feeder on as well.


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## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

Okay, this is my plan for next spring. I have permacomb and med.boxes ready to go. I'm hoping to get a few lbs of smaller,(maybe feral) bees and a couple deep frames of brood, no queen, from a local beek.
Do i have to put in a few foundationless frames for the bees to build drone cells..? I'm thinking theres no way there going to raise drones in the small permacomb cells..
I'm going to start with two med. boxes on a SBB and a slatted rack and top feeder...Everything in the new hive will be med. permacomb except the two deep frames of brood and i guess a couple of med. foundationless frames for drones....I will let the bees go through the transition period (regression?) and remove deep frames and replace with permacomb at the right time, leaving the new hive with med. permacomb. What is best for rearing the drones needed in this set-up ? Med. foundationless topbar frames ? Would i also use med.foundationless to get comb honey or just some med wax foundation on wireless frames..? Anyone with experience in permacomb care to share..? thanks....


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'm thinking theres no way there going to raise drones in the small permacomb cells..

That's why the PermaComb is a little short. They build a row of drones on the bottom of most every frame in the brood nest.


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## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

Okay,thanks Michael for the drone on the bottom of the permacomb info...does the rest of what i plan on doing sound workable to you...?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

How will you put the two deep brood combs in the box? Cut them down? Cut them out and tie them in medium frames?


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## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

Michael, the beek that i may be getting some ferels from suggested this.Use two med.supers, leave two med. frames out of center top and bottom boxes. Place two deep frames of brood in top box , in center where two med. are missing..Fill in bottom of deep brood frames with wood or something to take up the rest of space in bottom box. 
When bees have established themselves remove deep frames and replace with med. frames...Will this work...? 
Perhaps as you asked , cut them out and tie to med frame is a better idea.
Could i cut down a deep frame full of brood to a med size without wreckng all the brood...? On my table saw..??? How would you go about doing this...? Thanks....


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Place two deep frames of brood in top box , in center where two med. are missing..Fill in bottom of deep brood frames with wood or something to take up the rest of space in bottom box.

Or nothing and they'll just build 3" of comb on the bottom of the frames.

>When bees have established themselves remove deep frames and replace with med. frames...Will this work...?

Sure. I do prefer to minimize the space rather than give them two mediums, but they will probably do fine.

>Perhaps as you asked , cut them out and tie to med frame is a better idea.

That works too.

>Could i cut down a deep frame full of brood to a med size without wreckng all the brood...?

I've never tried it, but some people have.

> On my table saw..??? How would you go about doing this...?

I think I'd just cut out the brood and tie it into a medium frame.







But I suppose you could shake the bees off, run it though the saw and put it back in the hive.


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## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

Thanks Michael...







cutting out the brood and tying to a med.frame sounds easy enough. It's good to know it can be done in a few ways...


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