# made a split--when to look for a queen cell?



## No_Bivy (Nov 25, 2008)

good question...Im curious too


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

In 5 to 6 days, you should see a capped or almost capped queen cell. If you don't see at least one, then get you a queen to add to it. Did you shake an extra frame or two of nurse bees into your split?


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## jdb1930 (Apr 20, 2008)

They choose the queens from 1 to 3 day old larva, so after a week if you don't see at least 1 queen cell, it would be time to get a queen.

The hive can go for a few weeks without a queen, they have to go queen less for around 14 days when they make a queen. So it would be roughly the same as waiting 2 weeks for another queen to come in and be introduced.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

stavros said:


> I made a split from our hive today--took away 3 frames of capped brood and eggs (hopefully what I saw was eggs!), and put them in a deep with extra frames of honey and pollen that I had. There were no queen cells in the split. The question is this: how long should I wait to check if they develop a queen cell? A backup plan: if they do not make a queen cell, how long can I wait to introduce them a new queen in the usual cage? This is my first split, and I am less confident. Thanks a lot,
> Stavros


I don't like the emergency cells but if you made up your mind and decided not to get a queen and let the bees build an emergency queen cell, you should let the strongest part of your split do the queen rearing, which is your hive and not your nuc, so the old queen should be on the weakest part, in the nuc and not in the hive.



Good luck Gilman


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I agree with Bleta. The way I do splits, is to take the queen with the sealed brood and a frame or two of honey and move them away from the hive location to a new location in a new hive box. That leaves the main hive with good balance of population with field force to still forage for fresh stores for having good pollen and nectar for making royal jelly. I also will only do splits during a strong nectar flow, which will help in creating stronger queens. This will also make a period of broodlessness with the original hive as they make a queen, which will help the bees naturally fight varroa and other pests and diseases in the hive. 

Over the space of 6 to 9 weeks, you'll find both hives have balanced to fairly equal strength. The hive with queen loses workforce, but has sealed brood hatching soon to help the queen keep laying to build up population. The queenless hive will get the field force but they are the older bees which will be dying off over the space of a few weeks. So, over time, the two hives will balance out in population.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*How long*

Your nuc will probably do just fine, believe me. The less you open it the better. Cut the door down to one bee. If you can stand it, it's best to wait 30 days to look. But actually if very careful you can look at almost any time and she will still make it OK. It's a big thrill to find a laying queen!


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## stavros (Feb 26, 2008)

Thanks for your suggestions. I see that it makes sense to make a split with the queen in the nuc, and the hive to raise a new queen. I did not do the split this way because I have only one hive (my other one did not make it in the winter) and I did not want to mess up my only hive. So, I keep my hive going, and took a risk with a small nuc. If the nuc does not develop, I can always add a new queen in a couple of weeks. Or at the very worst, recombine it with my existing hive. It's exciting to let the nurse bees raise their own queen from an egg. How do they know? Millions of years of evolution, written in their genetics, I guess.
Stavros


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

I would check them in 8 or 9 days and see how many queen cells they have made. If they have some that are not sealed yet (make sure you see a larvae in them), knock down the sealed ones and you will get a better queen. Many times when they make queens under the emergency impulse instead of the swarming impulse they will start with larvae that are a little too old. By knocking down the first bunch of sealed cells, you have a better chance of the queen coming from a larvae of the most desirable age.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Your split nuc will probably do just fine. There are many people that do it just the way you did and it works out. I just feel in my own opinion that moving the queen away with sealed brood works more often. I just posted that so you would see the sense of it for when you may want to do this in the future. If the main hive doesn't make a new queen when doing it by moving the queen away, you can always slip her back into the main hive to continue it on. Best of luck and let us all know how it turns out!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Queen hatches 3½ days capped 8 days +-1 emerges 16 days +-1 Laying 28 days +-5

So if you made a queenless split they would probably start with a four day old larvae. You should have cells within 48 hours, but if they piddle around too long they can still start cells four days later and have the right age larvae. Odds are 24 days after your split you'll have a laying queen.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm


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## stavros (Feb 26, 2008)

*so far, so good*

After a week of rain and some low temperatures (such as 36 at night) the weather improved and today I checked the split. They did not take the feeder inside an empty deep at all; I guess they preferred the capped honey. The good news are two queens cells (on different frames) capped (or almost capped), and about 3 frames of bees. So, they're making a queen. I guess I should leave them alone for now. I have noticed other bees getting attracted to the split (flying near the cover, but not in the entrance). I have kept the entrance to a little more than a bee for comfort. I have not seen robbers go in the split. So far, so good. In about a week, laying queens will be available from local beekeepers, but maybe I should let the split make their own queen as they are doing. Thanks a lot,
Stavros


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## stavros (Feb 26, 2008)

*update on the split--now what?*

I have a question on the ongoing split to ask you about. It's day 18, checked today and saw that one of the queen cells was popped open and at least 2 others were there. So, they have a queen. The split is in a deep (10 frames) then inner cover, then a boardman feeder inside a second deep, then the outer cover. I have reduced the entrance to a couple of bees only. The bees are using the outer cover for going in/out. When I opened the outer cover, the inner cover (and botton of outer cover) was fully covered with bees, and so were 3 frames of the deep. They did not touch at all the syrup (in 18 days now), and there were quite a lot of bees on the air during inspection: no stings but they were clearly defensive. My questions are these:
(a) are the numerous bees robbers (that do in from the outer cover) or not?
(b) if they are not using the feeder, should I take it out and pack them in a single deep only?
(c) is it common with a split with a virgin queen to be more defensive?
Thank you very much,
Stavros


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes, a split with virgin can bee more sensitive. If they not taking the feed, they have enough honey stored and nectar flow, so I'd take the feeder off and just let them bee in a single 10 frame box, as you said. Less chance of robbing that way.


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## stavros (Feb 26, 2008)

*day 27 of a split--no eggs*

I checked my split yesterday on day 26, and I saw no eggs, not the queen. There are about 3 frames of bees, and I can see bees bringing in pollen. They might be queenless. The split is in a 10 frame drawn deep with honey. They have not taken any syrup from the start to now. I have caught a great swarm (my first one) a week ago that is doing great, building comb on a 10 frame undrawn deep. The question is this: How long should I wait till I see eggs in the split? If not, can I combine it with the swarm? Or should I add a mated queen to the split? What would you recommend?
Thanks a lot,
Stavros


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

stavros said:


> I checked my split yesterday on day 26, and I saw no eggs, not the queen. There are about 3 frames of bees, and I can see bees bringing in pollen. They might be queenless. The split is in a 10 frame drawn deep with honey. They have not taken any syrup from the start to now. I have caught a great swarm (my first one) a week ago that is doing great, building comb on a 10 frame undrawn deep. The question is this: How long should I wait till I see eggs in the split? If not, can I combine it with the swarm? Or should I add a mated queen to the split? What would you recommend?
> Thanks a lot,
> Stavros


You should have added a mated queen to the split the second day you had the split. All those days wasted and still not sure if there is a good queen or not.
If they are bringing in pollen that is a good sign. Wait a few more days and then unite.

Gilman


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## Matt NY (Jan 14, 2006)

bleta12 said:


> You should have added a mated queen to the split the second day you had the split. All those days wasted and still not sure if there is a good queen or not.
> If they are bringing in pollen that is a good sign. Wait a few more days and then unite.
> 
> Gilman


Hmm, that's a bit personal isn't it?

I kind of like what Larry Connor says, "That's between you and your bees."


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## GRIMBEE (Apr 3, 2007)

I inspected my hives today and swarm cells were present as I expected. So I did my splits today, drones were also present. All looks well 2 frames eggs, larve, capped brood, 3 Queen cells. And 2 capped honey frames. I split when I see they made swarm queens to curtail them from swarming.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Matt NY said:


> Hmm, that's a bit personal isn't it?
> 
> I kind of like what Larry Connor says, "That's between you and your bees."



OK. you got me.
I admit, I really don't like the emergency queen cells, as a stated in my first post in this thread.
Larry Connor does not advocate the emergency cells. 

Gilman


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## stavros (Feb 26, 2008)

Gentlemen, you are not answering my question, which is this: how long should I wait on a split that might be queenless and is on day 28 till I unite? I know bee-math (and math, too!: www.math.gatech.edu/~stavros), I am a beginner (this is my second season) and I thought of making a split without pre-existing queen cells. The bees made queen cells (at least 3 of them) and 2 have the ends open: either a queen popped out or they were not finished. I understand that between N beekeepers there are at least N+1 opinions (or is it 2^N?). Still, I would love to hear your opinion about the existing split, and not about one I would make in the future.
Thank you very much,
Stavros


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## GRIMBEE (Apr 3, 2007)

The first question I would be looking for queen cells 1 to 2 weeks later, I am not sure how long the hive can be queenless for before the workers start laying. This is my 2nd year also.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Michael Bush said:


> Queen hatches 3½ days capped 8 days +-1 emerges 16 days +-1 Laying 28 days +-5
> 
> So if you made a queenless split they would probably start with a four day old larvae. You should have cells within 48 hours, but if they piddle around too long they can still start cells four days later and have the right age larvae. Odds are 24 days after your split you'll have a laying queen.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm



Mike answered your question.
The time it takes to mate and lay eggs is a bit relative and depends a lot on the weather.
Last year some started laying after three weeks introduced as cells, so over 30 days after I grafted, splited, in your case.
Be patient. 
Gilman


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## stavros (Feb 26, 2008)

*bee-math puzzle*

I checked the split at day 30 today: 3 frames of bees, new pollen and nectar in, I was unable to find the queen, and I saw larva, some capped brood, and some clearly drone capped brood. I am not sure if I there was worker capped brood to convince that there is a queen. The puzzle is this: it takes 10+-1 day for capped drone brood. So, someone in day 20+-1, laid drone eggs. Could it be the queen? Or a laying worker? Is there any other way to convince that there is a laying queen? I can wait another week to find out if the larva becomes capped drone, or capped worker. Thank you very much.
Stavros
PS: For my education, if a split never makes a queen and develops laying workers, can I combine it with another hive to save the bees? Or will it mess up the other hive?


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

>>>>>they have to go queen less for around 14 days<<<<<

It takes 14 days to get to an emerged queen from an egg. Then her cuticle has to harden so she can fly (5 days?) Then she has to mate 10 or 15 times. (5 more days) then she has to start laying. (It may not be immediate.) So, from the time you set up your nuc, it's 25 days to eggs; it's another 21 to new bees emerging. By this time your original bees are getting old. (Maybe not good nurses). To save a $20 queen the hive has lost 5 or 6 iterations of brood. In Ct that would be it for the year. That split would never make it.

dickm


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## stavros (Feb 26, 2008)

Thank you all for your suggestions about making a split. Sad to say that mine did not work--I combined them with a swarm yesterday. To my future splits without pre-existing queen cells, I will be giving them a queen. Lesson learned.
Stavros


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