# Mites Won't Stop! Using OAV.



## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

I recently rescued some hives from a commercial beekeeper. He had obviously stopped caring for the bees so it's been a bit of work to get than back to full health.

The real issue is the amount of mites! Nearly all the hives are two deep with LOTS of bees... But also lots of DWV, and who knows what else. (LOTS of bees crawling around in front of the hives)

I started with OAV treatments as soon as they settled in. (Using Johnos Easy Vap) I did a few treatments 7 days apart and kept getting MASSIVE drop on the mite board (thousands). After another mite check I could tell the mite count was still climbing so decided to go nuclear.

I've now done 8 treatments, 3 days apart. Some would say that's excessive but the bee numbers are still very high and still plenty of brood, etc. Also, 24 hours after each treatment I've still noticed a TON of mites on the boards of a few of the colonies.

I did stop treating the hives that only showed a few mites after the 6th treatment, but after 8 treatments some still have a huge amount of mites dropping.

As such, should I use a different method on these hives? Apivar or other? The OAV is obviously killing a lot of mites, are there really so many emerging, and heading back into cells between treatments, to keep these kinds of numbers up?

My main hives have nearly zero mites as I've treated them during low brood months, I'd just like to knock these numbers down in these new hives to get them through spring, where I can treat in the summer when they have far less brood.

I also plan on requeening the really problematic hives with daughters of my best stock. Always low mites and resistant to local issues.

Anyone else had similar issued with OAV? What did you do to resolve it?

Hive #5, 24 hours after 8th treatment:


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

mtnmyke said:


> I've now done 8 treatments, 3 days apart. Some would say that's excessive but the bee numbers are still very high and still plenty of brood, etc. Also, 24 hours after each treatment I've still noticed a TON of mites on the boards of a few of the colonies.
> 
> I did stop treating the hives that only showed a few mites after the 6th treatment, but after 8 treatments some still have a huge amount of mites dropping.
> 
> As such, should I use a different method on these hives?


If you continue to get large amounts of mite-drop after each treatment - then VOA is obviously working - so keep going ....
Suggest you do ALL the hives each time, to minimise possible transfer of mites between hives.
LJ


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## HeadofMeadow (Jul 30, 2019)

If it was me, I would try a dose of something else, yes it’s working but maybe you need a swipe at something gets below the caps. If it’s approaching a flow where you are maybe give Formic a shot while you have honey supers on. Good kick.


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## ShelleyStuart (Jan 4, 2010)

Personally, I'd abandon any thought of getting honey from these hives this year -- they've been hit too hard by the mites. If you have the equipment, and you think the bees are strong enough, I would force a brood break. Remove the current brood frames and replace them with new ones, or shake them into a new hive. Then hit them with OAV, and sanitize the old equipment. All of the mites will be phoretic this way, and you'll have better impact with the OAV.

On the bright side, if these bees have been able to keep going in the face of this mite count, the genetics might be worth culturing, and all of this effort to save them worth the time in the long run.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

I'd throw in some apivar. Thanks for sharing this goes along with what I have found myself. OAV is a very short lived treatment. Some say it kills with a great kill rate for days but I have seen nothing to prove there is truth to that in my trails. It definitely has it's place in our treatment options but like everything it isn't perfect. I'd drop some strips in and feed the colonies if they have nothing incoming. Keep up the good work!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

You obviously have a high mite load and a large amount of brood under cappings; perhaps also a high mite load on bees surrounding you which could be drifting in as well. As has been mentioned that ~80% of the mites under cappings are unaffected and the OA vapor dust does not stay active very long leaving unprotected gaps between treatments. Formic acid and some of the others mentioned have some effect on mites under cappings and a more continuous affectiveness so would be better in your situation. 

OA vapor in that situation would need much closer together treatments and more of them to be effectiv, and then you are into off label recommendation territory.

You have to work around Formics maximum temperature limitations and if you have supers on or will place them soon, some of the others are not allowed.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> I'd throw in some apivar. I'd drop some strips in and feed the colonies if they have nothing incoming. Keep up the good work!


I agree Kamon. I used OAV for three years. First two years in November when the colonies were broodless. The following summer, the mite counts were 20-25. I vaped three times, seven days apart. Had no effect on the population of mites in the colonies. I almost lost my apiaries. I no longer bother with OAV. Too time consuming with a thousand colonies, and the efficacy is way too low.

With the mite loads the OP is experiencing, you need to use something that will knock the mite loads back to near zero. Then perhaps you can maintain low numbers using OAV


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Have you considered pulling the queen for a few days to impose a brood break while you are using OAV? Also, I would look into a formic flash treatment if you are ready to try something else..


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

Thanks everyone for the replies. It's always reassuring to hear you're on the right track.

Our main honey flow has already passed, being in Coastal CA, so no worries in contaminating honey. I may just have to order some Apivar for these hives as that seems like a better solution to catch the mites between the three days I'm not catching them.

I'm not a fan of formic acid. I've had local friends use it who experienced huge brood loss and queen loss. I may have misspoken in saying I went nuclear as formic acid may be the true nuclear option. Maybe they used it wrong, but it's not like it gets very hot or cold here. 

I don't really have the time to remove the Queen's to cage, then treat, then release, for my 30+ hives, but could definitely work. It only takes me 20 minutes or so to treat all the hives. The Easy Vap sure makes things... Easy.

One things for sure, OAV definitely kills mites, but when the load is this bad it definitely doesn't knock the numbers down quickly. I'm tempted to keep treating one or two of the really bad hives to see just how many treatments it takes to knock them down. Could be interesting. Yet, will also be interesting to see just how many more mites fall after treating with Apivar... Following 8-10 OAV treatments.


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## Akademee (Apr 5, 2020)

Are you sure these hives are worth saving? Every treatment you perform negatively affects the queen and the those effects are cumulative. Most of these treatments are considered safe since the worker bees die off in 6-7 weeks, but the queen has to take the brunt of the chemicals multiple times throughout her life. I am by no means treatment free, I say this as someone who use synthetic miticides too (I'm not a fan of formic either), but I would be worried about the long term health of the colony. It doesn't matter if you save them from the mites if they dwindle and die from overexposure to miticides. If the infestation is this advanced, personally I would use formic as it nukes every mite in the hive, phoretic and under the cappings. I would take the queen/brood loss as an necessary risk. Apivar is great (I use it all the time) but it has almost zero knock down, its a very slow acting treatment over a long period of time (42 days).


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

What do you use to treat mites Mr. Palmer? 
I very much like what how instructive both Mr. Palmer and Kamon are. Kamon's YouTube channel is great. And any video that Michael Palmer is in is worth about 50 watches to get everything he is saying. 
I think I would try apivar also just to try and get a more sustained kill. Also with OAV I think I have heard to do every 5 days instead of 7, but i dont know if that makes a difference.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

ShelleyStuart said:


> Personally, I'd abandon any thought of getting honey from these hives this year -- they've been hit too hard by the mites. If you have the equipment, and you think the bees are strong enough, I would force a brood break. Remove the current brood frames and replace them with new ones, or shake them into a new hive. Then hit them with OAV, and sanitize the old equipment. All of the mites will be phoretic this way, and you'll have better impact with the OAV.
> 
> On the bright side, if these bees have been able to keep going in the face of this mite count, the genetics might be worth culturing, and all of this effort to save them worth the time in the long run.


I think removing the brood frames and sacrificing one round of brood-rearing is a very good idea under current circumstances. Seeing as the hives are 2 deeps with LOTS of bees, it might also be worth treating each box separately, to ensure maximum circulation of the dust. My guess is you'd only need to do this once - bit of a hassle, sure - but as these colonies have survived such high mite loads thus far, I'd say they're well-worth saving. You've nothing to lose, anyway 
LJ.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

Well, now I'm a little torn on what treatment to use. Formic Acid will kill all the mites, or darn close to it. It is the nuclear option but the brood loss, or even the queen loss, may be worth it.

That leads me to the queens and thoughts on keeping them:
Yes, the hive has survived with a high mite count - thriving with this mite count, no. The amount of bees walking around on the ground from DWV is a huge issue. One of the worse hives, in regards to mites, had a small case of EFB pop up (I knocked it down with rounds of OTC) That could be from something else, genetics?, but I can't image this many mites living on the bees is a good thing. I'd much rather breed bees, like the ones I've been raising for years now, that maintain low mite counts naturally - and I'm only needed twice a year to knock them down.
Thoughts?

I do raise all my own queens and have quite a few ready to be moved (quickly outgrowing their queen castles). I could always do a formic acid round, then requeen to prevent the issue in the future?

Lot of good advice, lot of ways to go about it. Trying to find the best one for me.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Have you considered doing the liquid formic on meat pads? I used it a couple of times and it can lend itself to doing a lower dose and three applications if you are getting up into the upper range of recommended temperatures. If using the patent applications of formic use the divided treatment with two applications. A lot of people have used them and far the majority experience no losses if they follow the recommendations on entrance openings and not on weak colonies etc. 

I have only used the meat blotters and bulk. Having only three colonies at the time and being nervous about it, I was dosing with a syringe onto the blotter on frame tops; about 8 or 10 cc each morning and night for 10 days. Was playing with the wick type slow dispenser idea. Not something you would want to mess around with 30 hives though for sure. That did the trick for me that season but I went to OAVapor since then.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Steve in PA said:


> Have you considered pulling the queen for a few days to impose a brood break while you are using OAV?


In a thousand colonies?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

SS Auck said:


> What do you use to treat mites Mr. Palmer?


Apistan in early spring, amitraz after harvest in August/September. Very low mite counts last summer. So far this spring, all rolls were zero.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

OAV is no silver bullet as it only remains active within the hive for around 3 days. Doing 3 treatments every 7 days if you have a high mite count is much the same as putting Apistan or Apivar into your hives for 3 days then removing it and putting it back 7 days later for 3 days and then removing it again. In the early years I did the 3 treatments every 7 days waited a week and did mite counts which were just as high as when I started, plenty of mites fell but counts did not go down. Formic and meat pads were not much better either. So I dropped the time to 5 days apart and up to 6 treatments per session. Wait a month and do it all again and then over the winter period at least 2 treatments when broodless and if the weather co operates even a 3rd treatment. I have found that if you get on top of your mites you still need many treatments to stay on top. The treatments with OAV are cheap and quick without having to open up your colonies. Once my honey comes off by late June I am going to try out treating on Mondays and Fridays for 3 weeks at a timeand see how that works out. I must admit that I am in an area where there are no migratory beekeepers and not many other beekeepers close enough to create mite bombs so I just have to keep up with my mites and not someone elses.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

There seems to be some confusion on how often I'm treating. I guess everyone can't read everything.

I started out doing it once a week, but that only lasted for a couple weeks. It just took took too long with my little wand type vaporizer. Since getting Johno's Easy Vap it's been way easier to treat! Since receiving the Easy Vap it's been every 3 days for 8 treatments on the worse of the colonies. There are probably one 3-4 colonies where this still wasn't enough to knock down the numbers to a reasonable level. These are the ones I'd like to try something else on.

Being in coastal CA we don't have a lot of broodless times. I'd say my colonies are the smallest at the end of summer, near the end of the dearth. That's when I usually treat which has worked out well. I may end up using OAV only during this time and using something else right after our main flow which hits Dec - March. There are a lot of beekeepers around here and many commercial operations move in temporarily to pollinate, or to park their bees between pollination and moving them up North for honey production.

Learning a lot though and have definitely shifted my thinking. Thanks everyone for the replies. Keep them coming.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

I had to do 12 treatments (OAV) on some hives in the fall to get the drops low enough. I think in the future I will switch to formic if I don't see what I want after 3-4.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> I had to do 12 treatments (OAV) on some hives in the fall to get the drops low enough. I think in the future I will switch to formic if I don't see what I want after 3-4.


I'm at 8. We'll see how long it takes for mine to get down.

Definitely going to order some different mite treatments for future situations like this though.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> In a thousand colonies?


OP never mentioned 1000 colonies


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> I agree Kamon. I used OAV for three years. First two years in November when the colonies were broodless. The following summer, the mite counts were 20-25. I vaped three times, seven days apart. Had no effect on the population of mites in the colonies. I almost lost my apiaries. I no longer bother with OAV. Too time consuming with a thousand colonies, and the efficacy is way too low.



So, 
now we have Michael Palmer saying OAV does not work, Kamon Raynolds (great videos!) and Randy Oliver having doubts about OAV efficiency or practicality. 

Are there actually ANY larger beekeepers using OAV? 




My rule of thumb has always been: what the profs use is good for a hobby beekeeper, but not vica versa.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

mtnmyke said:


> I also plan on requeening the really problematic hives with daughters of my best stock. Always low mites and resistant to local issues.


I think this is the key to your long term fix.

I also agree with others that removal of all sealed brood and treating with both Apivar and also OAV every three days both until mite counts come more under control is a good idea.

So, remove the sealed brood, then treat using Apivar and OAV, then requeen when mites are under control, apivar will probably still be in the hive. I expect removing sealed brood and doing the double whammy treatment will get your mites under control fairly quickly.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Juhani Lunden said:


> So,
> now we have *Michael Palmer saying OAV does not work*, Kamon Raynolds (great videos!) and Randy Oliver having doubts about OAV efficiency or practicality.


That sort of statement does you no credit. Suggest you read Johno's post (#12) for an explanation of why a 7-day approach would not work.

There's a world of difference between whether a treatment is effective or whether it is practical with extremely large numbers of hives. You clearly have an agenda when it comes to bad-mouthing Oxalic Acid.
LJ


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

little_john said:


> That sort of statement does you no credit. Suggest you read Johno's post (#12) for an explanation of why a 7-day approach would not work.
> 
> There's a world of difference between whether a treatment is effective or whether it is practical with extremely large numbers of hives. You clearly have an agenda when it comes to bad-mouthing Oxalic Acid.
> LJ



Wow, that is all I can say.


I do highly appreciate Michael Palmer's comments.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

I havent read all the posts so not sure if this was mentioned. Cull all the drone comb (leave a little spot intact) add two green drone frames in the top brood box #3 and #8 if 10 frame, for them to draw feeding if needed. Hopefully that will help with the control, just dont forget them. When pulling them out put in another set, freeze the drawn ones, and rotate them for the season. This is for control not a treatment so to speak.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

PS the crawling bees could be traceal mites so wont hurst to throw in a grease pattie.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Steve in PA said:


> OP never mentioned 1000 colonies


Nope, I did


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Being old and decrepid I only work about 40 colonies and am trying desperately to get to 25. However when I treat I treat all 40 and if I had a 1000 I would treat all of them, Michael I take it you treat all of them together which no matter how is still a pain in the rear. What I am trying to impress upon the OAV users is that it must be within the colony for a long stretch of time if it is going to eventually get the phoretic mites Apivar is in for 42 days continuous and I am sure you would get the same results if OA was in the hive for 42 days.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Apivar, 42 days per application at approximately $12 per treatment per hive (assuming 2 brood boxes and 4 strips per hive). Requires two hive visists.

OAV 42 days/3=14 treatments three days apart. Cost per individual application about $0.05, not counting the application device. Cost per treatment regimen per hive $0.70 or less. Requires as many as 14 hive visits. In actual practice, only severly infested hives would need a 42 day treatment program. Most do quite well with 21 days. 

For a hobbyist or sideliner, OAV is still the way to go for most situations as labor is not a major concern. The math changes as the hive numbers increase and resource utilization becomes an issue.

2 years OAV only and I can't sell the nucs fast enough to keep my apiary manageable. Too many healthy bees.

Ok, the last part is bragging.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

Cloverdale said:


> PS the crawling bees could be traceal mites so wont hurst to throw in a grease pattie.


Unless tracheal mites also cause their wings to shrivel up 😝


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

OAV absolutely works. Proof is in how many mites are dropping after each treatment. Since I'm treating every three days, and have nearly treated through two brood cycles, I don't believe it stays in the hive for the full three days. I'm obviously having a lot of mites emerge, and head straight back into cells to mate, unharmed.

I think the only way OAV would truly work for infestations this bad is to go off label and treat every other day, or daily. Although I've never seen any adverse effects for using OAV. That may quickly change with a treatment schedule this drastic.

The numbers are coming down, but not as fast as I'd hope - this is why I'll likely use another treatment on the problem hives, and use OAV to maintain.

I'm going to requeen but will put the old Queens in some nucs as backups. Their immune systems may be worth keeping if I can maintain the mites... But still prefer stock that can maintain numbers somewhat naturally.

I'll continue to hit the hives with OAV until the backup treatment arrives. Today will be the 9th treatment. I'll keep everyone updated on just how many treatments it took to get under control.

Only good new is with my Easy Vap, it only takes 45 seconds per hive. 9th treatment will put me just over 4 minutes per hive 😅


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Some people probably have tried treatments every day or two days apart but may be reluctant to post about it.

I haven't had to go any closer than 4 days to put them on the run, but admittedly I have never seen a mite drop over about 50. A pretty easy row to hoe.

It is hard to believe that that many mites are being continuously produced by the colony. They must be importing mites from mite bomb colonies somewhere they are robbing out.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Frank, that was my conclusion on one of my own hives last fall. Out of 26 hives, one was dropping thousands of mites every treatment. All the rest were <50. I stepped up the program to every three days and finally did get the numbers down but I am convinced they were bringing the mites in as fast as I was killing them for awhile. That hive did make it through winter but is still small compared to my other hives and overwintered nucs. 
Hang in there Mike, after a few more applications you should see a significant reduction in your drop dead count.


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

I don't know if it means anything, but since I use OAV instead of Apivar, I have every hive make it through the winter.

My treatment started on Thursday and ends with 7 treatments, four days apart. My hives are still covered. I will have to open on Monday to give pollen patties.

Somewhere above the questions was about commercial keepers using OAV and I have one north of me (my kind of mentor) doing around 12,000. His arithmetic: 12,000 x four apivar strips (2 fall, 2 spring) is 4x$3.00x12,000= $144,000. His guys visit the hives anyway now and he can buy a lot of equipment (commercial) and OA for $144,000.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

I think this thread has been very healthy. Showing the variables and also that what makes sense for one person does not make much to another. Apivar is expensive but healthy hives can make alot of money and employees and interns can be a nightmare sometimes (ugh). I would also say that the mite production in Cali and florida are going to be totally different from Vermont and Canada. Here in TN we produce alot of mites in one season. You all have a real winter to deal with though and even though you will produce fewer mites you cannot afford hives to be even a little stressed going into winter. I think this ALL shows the value of work/bee husbandry. I do believe we can select for better bees but there will never be a day when honeybees don't benefit from good beekeepers and beekeepers benefiting from great bees. Anyone who says beekeeping isn't work is smoking the wrong kind of smoker fuel


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If circumstances allowed there to be a very high mite load for a considerable period it probably takes longer for the virus counts to drop even after the mite numbers have been reduced to the 1 or 2 percent economic threshold. I have seen the figure of at least 2 rounds of brood rearing *after* the mites are destroyed to allow a full cluster of winter bees to be produced. If the numbers are high get them down as quick as you can. Even if the treatment has *some* minor brood mortality it seems that could be forgiven.

As that relates to Oxalic acid, treatments at much closer intervals might be a worthwhile consideration. Whether that could lead to increase likelihood of causing resistance to develop, would have to be put on the cost/benefit scale. Some people will rate that as considerable and others as unlikely.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Juhani Lunden said:


> So,
> now we have Michael Palmer saying OAV does not work, Kamon Raynolds (great videos!) and Randy Oliver having doubts about OAV efficiency or practicality.
> 
> Are there actually ANY larger beekeepers using OAV?
> ...


Thanks juhani for the compliment on the videos but I totally wouldn't put myself in the same sentence much less the same catagory as Palmer and Oliver. Both of them need to get some more YouTube videos up!


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Both of them need to get some more YouTube videos up!


:thumbsup:


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

Thanks everyone for the input.

It really is important to know your area when treating for anything, especially mites. I know a lot of beekeepers around me get advice from YouTube/internet. Often they prepare their hives for winter not realizing that's when our bees do the best - since they got advice from a northern beekeeper! I personally start building my colonies up around October to be ready for the flow! A northern beekeeper would think me mad! Our hard times are by far June - October as not much is blooming. Eucalyptus is our first sign of relief around the end of October.

It's important to know these things to properly manage your hives!

Back to the original post. I just did my 9th treatment on the problem hives. I just simply can't believe how many mites are on the mite boards every three days when I scrape them clean again! Is it really possibly they are getting it from somewhere else? Where? We're still in a light flow, not enough to get much honey, but I also haven't noticed any robbing... Yet.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

They are almost certainly robbing a failing hive.

The one I mentioned previously, where I did 12 treatments (it might have actually been more), I was scratching my head about it, as you are now. Eventually the drop count was in the teens.

Then, around January this year, I was talking with a guy down the road, and he asked about my bees (I give everyone on the road some honey at Christmas, so they know I have them). He is a logger, and said he had bees from a feral swarm that he found, but they collapsed and were robbed out in late fall. I think I now know where my bees got their mites ...

There are likely more bees and keepers around than you might think. If some of them are "put them in a box and get free honey" bee-posers, then you will see high mite loads on some hives from time to time.

You should start seeing improvement soon.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Could try to split them , then treat the smaller units. or drill a 1/4 inch hole in the very bottom of the second box to treat more centered.
IMO the issue is the mites coming out of the brood, 1 Cycle is 21 days. keep in mind the dead mite do not go back into the brood.  so every day for 21 days some mite emerge. 8x3 is 24 so really one good brood cycle is all you have treated.
think of where they would be untreated.... I think you are making good progress, something more Nuclear, if you plan to re queen is an option.

Also could take the worse 3, shake the bees say 75% with Queen (shook swarm) into or in front of a "new hive" new to them. be 8 days till capped brood do 3 treatments pre 8th day on the shook part.
Stack all the brood up one hive, treat every 3 days. go in 5 days post brood removal, cut out the emergency Queen cells. keep treating every 3-4 days til 21 days, then all the brood is hatched, and the mites have no brood to hide in. then Make 6-8 frame Splits with your new queens, or give the frames back to the old queen. IE divide and concur. in one place treat the bees and allow the brood to hatch in a separate hive treating along the way. IF the frames do not look good, Shake some bees out in 7 days to make a Coloney, shake more at 14 days and the rest at 21 days and purge the combs.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> 1 Cycle is 21 days. keep in mind the dead mite do not go back into the brood. so every day for 21 days some mite emerge. 8x3 is 24 so really one good brood cycle is all you have treated.


Since OAV kills the mites NOT under cappings, and the cell is only capped for 13-14 days, 9x3 would be 2 cycles. If my thinking is correct.

As such, I'm anxious to see the drop on the treatment I did last night and as I head into the 3rd cycle of capped brood.

How many will it take? Only one way to find out!


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

mtnmyke said:


> How many will it take? Only one way to find out!


That's the right attitude. For me it was around the 10th treatment, but by then it was cold and the bees were not flying as much. This hive was not able to produce strong winter bees which is why it is still weak now. If we had had a cold winter, I am sure they would have perished.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

I just checked the mite boards. There are significantly less mites on the majority of the hives, except one! This is the same hive that had the mild case of EFB I had to clear up. Good thing I caught it early and had OTC on hand. Strangely though, this is one of the bigger hives. LOTS of bees and even had to knock down some swarm cells. I may have different plans for this hive and am still undecided on if keeping the genetics would be worth it?

On one hand, they seem to do "okay" with really high mite numbers. On the other hand, they had EFB and aren't maintaining the mite numbers on their own. I'd still prefer hives that can knock down mites on their own and never show any sign of EFB - like my home brew stock.

Thoughts? Off with her head, or give her a second chance?


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

Keep the strong one going. It is not unusual for a strong hive to have more mites, as they tend to be the ones who rob out weaker mite-infested hives. The mites are a result of their strength. 

Strength is good, mites are bad. Hopefully by the time you knock the mites down, the mite source will be gone.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> Keep the strong one going. It is not unusual for a strong hive to have more mites, as they tend to be the ones who rob out weaker mite-infested hives. The mites are a result of their strength.
> 
> Strength is good, mites are bad. Hopefully by the time you knock the mites down, the mite source will be gone.


Yet I have MUCH stronger hives that only show 3-6 mites after a treatment and are in the same area. I'll likely requeen and move the old into a resource hive... See if she can prove herself worthy in time.


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## amirbay (Nov 21, 2014)

I just wonder want time of the day are you treating?
If it's in the middle of the day, then is it possible that many mites are "out" on foraging bees?
And treatment doesn't get them?


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

amirbay said:


> I just wonder want time of the day are you treating?
> If it's in the middle of the day, then is it possible that many mites are "out" on foraging bees?
> And treatment doesn't get them?


I treat at night.


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## rinkevichjm (Feb 14, 2018)

Use thermal treatment it will get them far better.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

rinkevichjm said:


> Use thermal treatment it will get them far better.


Actually not a bad idea, when one or two hives seem overly burdened with mites. Sure its two hours, but that should get them all.

As an update on my mite infestested hive from last year, checked them today and wow. Entire medium upper box was full of capped brood and the queen was found in a bottom frame where she was starting to lay. Good tight pattern. I am glad I saved her.


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## TJC1 (Nov 11, 2012)

bushpilot said:


> I had to do 12 treatments (OAV) on some hives in the fall to get the drops low enough. I think in the future I will switch to formic if I don't see what I want after 3-4.


Same number with my hives this fall - I started to wonder if it would ever stop! Was doing every 4-5 days... 

On another note, are these rescued hives far away from the rest of your own hives? I would be really worried about mite spread to the entire apiary given those infection rates.


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## mdm106 (May 4, 2011)

mtnmyke said:


> I recently rescued some hives from a commercial beekeeper. He had obviously stopped caring for the bees so it's been a bit of work to get than back to full health.
> 
> The real issue is the amount of mites! Nearly all the hives are two deep with LOTS of bees... But also lots of DWV, and who knows what else. (LOTS of bees crawling around in front of the hives)
> 
> ...


use some formic acid pads that will penatrate the capped cells


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

mtnmyke- My advice would be to stop messing with the OAV and go for something more powerful. Everyone has their favorite, the formic products have worked well for me. Then you're getting the mites in the brood too. OAV is a good cleanup during broodless periods. Maybe when you have the mites under control, it is good to help keep them low, but you need more than that.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

rinkevichjm said:


> Use thermal treatment it will get them far better.


Totally agree. If you want to risk shutting down or killing your queen or even killing large numbers of bees and brood or force them to abscond try MAQS or other formic acid products. Formic acid works great on hives that are strong enough to survive the formic treatment especially if the queen survives or is not damaged. 

Thermal treatment in my opinion and experience is MUCH less harsh on the hive and queens as well stimulates brood production along with killing or sterilizing mites under the capped brood cells. A great side benefit is that thermal treatment is very effective at killing and controlling SHB's.


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## OBG (Jun 16, 2013)

mtnmyke said:


> Well, now I'm a little torn on what treatment to use. Formic Acid will kill all the mites, or darn close to it. It is the nuclear option but the brood loss, or even the queen loss, may be worth it.
> 
> That leads me to the queens and thoughts on keeping them:
> Yes, the hive has survived with a high mite count - thriving with this mite count, no. The amount of bees walking around on the ground from DWV is a huge issue. One of the worse hives, in regards to mites, had a small case of EFB pop up (I knocked it down with rounds of OTC) That could be from something else, genetics?, but I can't image this many mites living on the bees is a good thing. I'd much rather breed bees, like the ones I've been raising for years now, that maintain low mite counts naturally - and I'm only needed twice a year to knock them down.
> ...


I was gifted a colony last December. Six medium 8s with a QE between the second and third box. I left them alone until March 1, 2020 and did an alcohol wash...55 mites/300 bees...heavy DWV load observed. Located the queen, used a “shook swarm” March 14, took away all the brood comb and honey stores, and set them up in a 10 deep with a QE above the bottom board, 10 frames blank foundation, and an internal feeder setup. 3 weeks later, re-sampled for mites for a count of 12/300. Gave them an OAV tuneup, re-sampled 7 days later (considering a second OAV Rx) for a mite count of 6/300. Mite drop on the board now stable. I credit the “shook swarm” method. They have a super on now, midway into the nectar flow. The colony is coming back it appears. $.02


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## Ed Bee (Apr 24, 2020)

I had a very high mite count in one of my hives and did some research...and on YouTube, I came across a commercial beekeeper who had a high mite count as well...55...he treated his hive with OAV 9 times and replaced the queen before he thought it would survive...in my effort to save this hive, it infested my other 3 hives in the bee yard and they all died...the next time I have a similar problem...I will isolate and kill the hive...


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

Ed Bee said:


> I had a very high mite count in one of my hives and did some research...and on YouTube, I came across a commercial beekeeper who had a high mite count as well...55...he treated his hive with OAV 9 times and replaced the queen before he thought it would survive...in my effort to save this hive, it infested my other 3 hives in the bee yard and they all died...the next time I have a similar problem...I will isolate and kill the hive...


That's incredibly dramatic and drastic for mites. He could have hit them with formic acid and easily won the war...


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

I checked my boards last night. For those who are counting that would be off of treatment 10!

The mite count is definitely dropping, there are probably half the mites or less dropping over the last 3 treatments which equals significant decreases. I think these hives are definitely on the mend.

To reiterate for those not really paying attention:

I am still treating all the hives I got from this original beekeeper. Most of them are now maintaining only a few mites dropping per treatment. There are only a couple that have been really bad. My other hives are in a different area of my property so although I'm not too concerned, am still monitoring mite counts.

HOWEVER, the worse of them managed to requeen themselves over this now 30 day ordeal. I inspected it yesterday and found a very young, freshly mated fatty of a queen. As I had just marked the queen in there, I'm 100% sure they knew there was an issue and took care of it themselves. EGGS EVERYWHERE! Whether her daughter is better at handling the mites - only time will tell. I still have queens banked in queen castles ready to replace her if not.

Now we wait a couple more days before hitting them...again...and again...


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## tenleez (Jan 23, 2016)

Many beeks face the same situation you are in. My question on "Johno's Easy Vap - Vaporizer" page 5 was trying to understand the total mite load (phoretic & under cappings) within the existing colony. Knowing that will help you understand the tsunami of emerging mites you won't be able to successfully knock down in a timely manner. As you know, OAV only treats the phoretic mites. 

I estimated btw 30% - 35% mites in the hive were phoretic. And that one OAV treatment on these mites would knock down 85% - 95% of those phoretic mites. So for an example, 100 phoretic mites in the hive treated w/OAV would mean there were btw 50 - 200 +/- more mites under cappings. 

Two other beeks responded that they believed phoretic mites represent around 20% of total mites in the hive. That means that around 80% of the mites are under cappings and will not be knocked down with an OAV treatment. With each mite-infested emerging bee, you're adding around 3 or 4 new mites to the hive. Add to that the foragers, drone visitors, robbers etc. bringing more mites into the hive and you're looking at a mountain of mite infestation. In addition, as the queen continues to lay eggs and larvae is fed, those mites have plenty of new incubator cells to choose from. .....Like trying to bail water from a dinghy with a tin can as the water rushes in from a hole in the floor. 

OAV can be effective if your mite load isn't astronomical. Where you had established, well-populated hives that were mite-infested, your best first course of action would have been to use a treatment that would effectively knock down the mites (both phoretic and capped). At the very least, doing a brood break would slow down the escalating propagation of the mites. Then follow up with OAV. Hope you are able to get a handle on this and get these bee colonies healthy.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

mtnmyke said:


> I treat at night.


mtnmyke, do you still have the sas line in your hives?


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

Cloverdale said:


> mtnmyke said:
> 
> 
> > I treat at night.
> ...


I found the Saskatraz line to be no good in my area. I've ordered a bunch and every single Sas queen I've tried has failed. On the other hand, my stock originated from OHBs Italians. Through breeding my strongest hives, along with rescuing some feral bees I've built a very strong stock of bees with very little losses. I'll probably never buy Queens again...

... That's my main reason for requeening all these hives. While my others naturally maintain low numbers, these mystery bees obviously aren't able to.

Tonight will be treatment 11. I'm definitely nearing the end of the battle with how low counts are getting - just never thought it would take this many shots of OAV!


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I would have to wonder about the equipment in stubborn failures of OV. Too high heat, low battery, treating in the same order? Burning the OV or so cold that there is poor dispersal in the hive. Low comb on the bottom frames that is collecting the majority of the vapor.

What would a drip do as an alternative ?


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

Saltybee said:


> I would have to wonder about the equipment in stubborn failures of OV. Too high heat, low battery, treating in the same order? Burning the OV or so cold that there is poor dispersal in the hive. Low comb on the bottom frames that is collecting the majority of the vapor.
> 
> What would a drip do as an alternative ?


It's obviously working very well if you'd read the posts...


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I'm probably going to get a lot of flack for this, but so be it...

Once I have enough hives to make my beeyard sustainable, then not every bee is precious and not every hive is salvageable or worth trying to save. Hives with EFB or Chalk problems and/or yes, high mite loads are not my cup of tea and are at the very least shaken into new equipment and re-queened or... gasp... intentionally killed off. Of course it depends on the hive of bees and the situation, but at some point a hive of bees can be sacrificed for the betterment of the entire yard.

I strive now to keep better genetics in my yard, and have much less headaches because of it.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

@Raymarler

I agree and this was discussed as I also have no tolerance for weak genetics.

I already requeened the hives with my own stock. A couple of them requeened themselves and I removed that queen and added another. I'll keep these new queens to see how they fair but will test them out on nucs first, not in the giant colonies they are currently in.

Hopefully it all goes well and these colonies end up being strong members of my apiary for years to come.


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## jimbo3 (Jun 7, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Apistan in early spring, amitraz after harvest in August/September. Very low mite counts last summer. So far this spring, all rolls were zero.


I'm sure you get a bulk discount, but how much per hive do you spend on treatments per year?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

mtnmyke said:


> @Raymarler
> 
> I agree and this was discussed as I also have no tolerance for weak genetics.
> 
> ...


Very good Mike, I feel that good genetics are a must in the beeyard for the least amount of headaches and less management over all. Sounds like you are going to do great to me. The best of luck to you and your adventures in your apiaries.


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## jimbo3 (Jun 7, 2015)

Saltybee said:


> I would have to wonder about the equipment in stubborn failures of OV. Too high heat, low battery, treating in the same order? Burning the OV or so cold that there is poor dispersal in the hive. Low comb on the bottom frames that is collecting the majority of the vapor.
> 
> What would a drip do as an alternative ?


There do seem to be huge variables: true amount of OA (flat vs. very rounded spoon); temp of vaporizer; 8 frame vs 10 frame vs 1 deep vs 2 deep; genetics; amount of bees in colony; are hives closed off for certain time after treatment; temp of hive during treatment; frequency of treatments; time of year of treatments.

I'm assuming the PhD that the OP quoted took all of that into consideration. I saw exact dosage was at least one variable taken into consideration.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

Seems to be a few people chiming in on things that have already covered.

I do consider the matter resolved and I thank those who have remained up to date. It was incredibly helpful and definitely change some of my views/strategies.

So as for a quick summary for those too lazy to read:

- The OAV absolutely worked. I was getting huge mite drops after each treatment. - So those questioning my method, that isn't the issue.

- During periods of high brood, OAV takes way more than the approx 3x5 treatment that is commonly recommended. It took me 12 treatments, 3 days apart to finally see acceptable mite numbers.

- As OAV is not a good treatment during high brood periods. I've concluded that using something else is far better. As we're just past our flow, I ordered Apistan to add to the really stubborn hives. It simply isn't sustainable to treat every 3 days for 12+ treatments. Whatever you find to work for you is fine, just consider your flow. I'm in coastal CA and my main flow is Nov - March. Summer is our dearth where my hive shrink down to conserve. This is when I'll hit them with OAV again.

- This issue was only on the hives that I did not have during broodless times. I got them in early Winter so they went into our flow with heavy mite counts.

- If I could go back in time I would have treated these hives with Hopguard or another honey safe treatment.

- My hives with my home bred stock have always been treated at appropriate times and still retain low counts. Now that all my hives are on the same page it should be easy to get back on schedule.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

"So those questioning my method, that isn't the issue."

Hope you separated the generic "you" from the specific "you". I did not notice any specific you.


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## Dubby's (Jul 25, 2020)

With that many hives how are you treating?


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## Dubby's (Jul 25, 2020)

Michael Palmer said:


> I agree Kamon. I used OAV for three years. First two years in November when the colonies were broodless. The following summer, the mite counts were 20-25. I vaped three times, seven days apart. Had no effect on the population of mites in the colonies. I almost lost my apiaries. I no longer bother with OAV. Too time consuming with a thousand colonies, and the efficacy is way too low.
> 
> With the mite loads the OP is experiencing, you need to use something that will knock the mite loads back to near zero. Then perhaps you can maintain low numbers using OAV


With that many hive how do you treat? Apivar would be very expensive


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