# Beekeeping Business Accounting



## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

If you keep track you will see how much you loose at your business.


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## BeeTax (Dec 27, 2011)

QuickBooks can do a very good job of you know how to set it up and you enter all your relavent information in a timely manner


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## danpunch (Feb 1, 2012)

EastSideBuzz said:


> If you keep track you will see how much you loose at your business.


That's EXACTLY why I want to keep track! I may just be charging too little for products and services and not know it!


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## danpunch (Feb 1, 2012)

BeeTax said:


> QuickBooks can do a very good job of you know how to set it up and you enter all your relavent information in a timely manner


Thank you, Gary. I might just go back to QB then.


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## billybwf (Aug 17, 2012)

Quickbooks is an easy program.


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## NowThen (Nov 26, 2008)

When I turned my hobby into a business in 2009, I bought Quickbooks. It was overkill. But... As my business has matured, I'm glad that I have it. It makes my tax preparer happy as well.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

danpunch said:


> That's EXACTLY why I want to keep track! I may just be charging too little for products and services and not know it!


I can almost gaurantee you are charging too little. Just from what I have seen other beekeepers doing for years.

Do you issue actual receipts for your services and honey sales? Keep track of the income and the expenses and get a tax accountant who understands agriculture and what you can do in an agricultural business which you can't in any other business. I'm sure Quickbooks is a good tool and the person suggesting its use correct.

I'm glad to see you asking this question. It means you are transitioning from a hobby/smallscale mindset to a beekeeping businesslike mindset. Good.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Due to a recent endeavor that my wife is entering into I have been researching business software. Almost all of them are overkill unless you can find an IT guy who has programmed a specialized software for his own beekeeping business. QB is well accepted in the accounting world but so are some others. The advantage I see about QB is there are so many people using it so it is easier to get help because as you would expect "free support" is a term used loosely these days.
I am looking towards online software's to alleviate the problem of hardware crashes and maintenance. It will also give me off site access which is necessary. Unfortunately I had to go to Quickbooks online "plus" instead of "essentials" to get class tracking which is really overkill for the business my wife is in. But if you need it you need it.

The biggest nut to crack is dealing with our state government and payroll for any business. That alone kills most businesses from moving out of the hobby classification. For my personal business with no employees I use a spreadsheet and at the end of the year I do a data sort for the ins and the outs and that makes my accountant happy. I would think most bee businesses with no employees could do the same. Once you have employees you have big brother breathing down your neck and then it becomes a whole new ballgame.

Good luck in your search.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I've used QB for 15 years now. Most accountants use it and that makes it easy to send reports via email. I don't use half of its features, but what I do utilize is well worth the cost of the program.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> get a tax accountant who understands agriculture and what you can do in an agricultural business which you can't in any other business.


What would that be?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Have a honey yield.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I use QB for my business, its great....but a little bit of a pain.
Set it up as simple as you can to start with. When you launch the program do it with someone that has experience setting up accounts, that is going to do your accounting/taxes or is at the least familiar with QB. Some things are difficult to go back and restructure if you haven't used it.

I'm on an envelope system for my other endeavors. I place a predetermined wad of cash in a envelope and keep track of every time I add and subtract cash on the outside of envelope.
If my envelope is fat I can consider my possibilities if it is getting thin, I know what to do.
It's very motivating and works well for me. 

These links might be helpful setting for setting up the structure 

http://agmarketing.extension.psu.edu/Business/PDFs/beekeeperplan.pdf

http://api.ning.com/files/4N20pw7eZ...JSG1IOmImTJaXQF/49759257beekeepingworbook.pdf


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## rlsiv (Feb 26, 2011)

I used to use Quicken, and liked the fact that my bank statements updated themselves every time I logged in. I never had to balance my checkbook manually, and it automatically categorized most expenses. I switched computers and didn't renew the software, but since I'm also in the process of moving from a hobby to a small scale business, I'm already planning on going back to Quicken or Quickbooks starting Jan 1st. I'll have a seperate "account" for both our personal/family budget and for our "bee business".


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mbeck said:


> I'm on an envelope system for my other endeavors. I place a predetermined wad of cash in a envelope and keep track of every time I add and subtract cash on the outside of envelope.
> If my envelope is fat I can consider my possibilities if it is getting thin, I know what to do.
> It's very motivating and works well for me.


Do you only put 20s, 50s, and 100s in the envelope? An envelope full of 1s isn't as satisfying as an envelope full of 100s, I find.

I have an accordion file next to my desk for bills paid and receipt books for sales, as well as my check books. At the end of the year I go thru the receipts and total up my income from Sales and pollination. I go thru the accordion file and seperate the receipts and credit card bills into the different categories found at the bottom of Schedule F Profit and Loss from Farming (or is it Profit or Loss?). Taking that list, along w/ mileage and Motel and Meals data, to my accountant, she figures out where we stand. Not forgetting depreciation of course. So far that has worked for me. What have I forgotten to mention?


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Do you only put 20s, 50s, and 100s in the envelope? An envelope full of 1s isn't as satisfying as an envelope full of 100s, I find.


I find it easy to put money in and hard to pull it out.

I wouldn't recommend a envelope for a business, you should use duffel bags or wheel barrows!!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mbeck said:


> I'm on an envelope system for my other endeavors.


It would be tough to use an envelope system if you were dealing with credit cards, payroll, and any online banking.

Mark, do you really wait until the end of the year to find out where you stand? There is not a lot of wiggle room if you wait that long. What happens if the truck breaks down and there isn't any cash in the till?


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## certaut (Apr 15, 2010)

I have been using gnucash
it does as much as quick books but is free


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## BeeTax (Dec 27, 2011)

Sometimes things that are free are very expensive. 

I would add to those wanting to properly set up their business accounting system, to enter the information as it is available, rather than at the end of the year, and get the records you have to your accountant BEFORE the end of the year. It is hard for me to advise clients on the things they need to do in 2011 to get the most advantage from the tax laws when they bring me their files on April 15th of 2012!

I do the monthly bookkeeping for many clients, and generally the money I save them plus the time it frees up for them to run their business more than pays for my fees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> It would be tough to use an envelope system if you were dealing with credit cards, payroll, and any online banking.
> 
> Mark, do you really wait until the end of the year to find out where you stand? There is not a lot of wiggle room if you wait that long. What happens if the truck breaks down and there isn't any cash in the till?


It's not an accounting to see where I stand. What I was writing about was for Tax accounting. And I do look at things before the end of the year, of course.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BeeTax said:


> Sometimes things that are free are very expensive.
> 
> I would add to those wanting to properly set up their business accounting system, to enter the information as it is available, rather than at the end of the year, and get the records you have to your accountant BEFORE the end of the year. It is hard for me to advise clients on the things they need to do in 2011 to get the most advantage from the tax laws when they bring me their files on April 15th of 2012!
> 
> I do the monthly bookkeeping for many clients, and generally the money I save them plus the time it frees up for them to run their business more than pays for my fees.


What about those things which one does not get until after the end of January? 1099s and such.


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## BeeTax (Dec 27, 2011)

A 1099 is only an official record of something that occured during the year. You should have or be able to get that information before the next year for most things that are relevant to your tax situation. The tax laws change a lot from year to year due to politics and the state of the economy. Some years you can get much more favorable treatment of equipment purchases, capital gains, health benefits, etc. than other years so it makes sense to try to get the income or expenses to happen when it is most favorable, as the law allows. 

As an accountant, I spend many hours in CPE classes each year learning about these new laws, and have access to lots of trade publications and fourms that discuss strategies for doing just that. Not that an individual could not learn the same things I learn, its just that I have to take the time to learn it because that is what I do for a living.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Do you handle the accounts of beekeepers? If yes, what sorts of things unique to beekeepers expenses or agricultural expenses do you come across?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeTax said:


> Sometimes things that are free are very expensive.




Funny you should say that. We had an Hasidic Jew as a customer tell us just yesterday that there is an expression, "Sometimes I have to learn by my beard instead of learning from other people." Very appropriate statement.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> What about those things which one does not get until after the end of January? 1099s and such.


If you record transactions as they occur a 1099 is just a formality.....


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## BeeTax (Dec 27, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Do you handle the accounts of beekeepers? If yes, what sorts of things unique to beekeepers expenses or agricultural expenses do you come across?


The only beekeeper's return I do is my own. Seems a lot of beekeepers want to play games with their payroll and I've seen enough business owners' (not beekeepers) pay thousands in penalties or lose everything they have due to payroll problems that I do not take clients that want to operate outside the law. It is not a pretty sight to see an auditor tear a person's whole life apart.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't know who you have been talking to or are refering to, but I imagine you are correct about what you say. You have an industry inside view which someone not a Tax Preparer does not.

I don't have employees, so I don't fit that mold. I have a number of friends who sweat thru the hassles of employing people and I have friends who pay cash or trade services and don't account for those transactions on an employer/employee basis. I doubt that this is isolated to beekeeping. I imagine it is quite common in other areas of agriculture and other businesses too.

Thanks for your reply.

any advice on what to look for in an Accountant? How do you find one who one can work with and feel good doing so. I know this is probably like choosing a Doctor.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Any advice on what to look for in an Accountant? How do you find one who one can work with and feel good doing so. I know this is probably like choosing a Doctor.


Just make sure he/she is a practicing CPA........


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I've used Quicken for years now. I'm no accountant so I like to keep things as simple as possible. Every cent goes into and out of a single checking account. Check no. and job gets written on every receipt. If you set up classes and categories correctly it makes taxes a breeze.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

cg3 said:


> I've used Quicken for years now. I'm no accountant so I like to keep things as simple as possible. Every cent goes into and out of a single checking account. Check no. and job gets written on every receipt. If you set up classes and categories correctly it makes taxes a breeze.


You don't have to be an accountant to keep the books and you are correct QB or Quicken helps tremendously, but I would still have a practicing CPA prepare the tax return(s).


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

CPA did my taxes the first couple of years and schooled me in proper setup of Quicken. Now, my schedule C practically does itself.


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## BeeTax (Dec 27, 2011)

Mark:

I certainly am not trying to imply that all beekeepers, or even most, are not paying their employees properly. Its just that a LOT of small business people don't understand the importance of keeping good records and doing things according to the law. If one is going to operate outside the law there is no reason to spend good money paying an accountant. Just make up the numbers you want to go on your return and send it in. (Disclaimer: This is not tax advice and is not to be used as such.)

On choosing an accountant, I was in the restaurant business for years before I became an accountant and have employeed at least 3 CPAs during that time. I look back now and see that I left a lot of money on the table because of things I did not know I could do, and did not have enough communication with my CPA that he let me know. Years ago, we owned a restaurant here and two more in a town 50 miles away. My CPA knew this. I drove over 100 miles per day from one location to the other and paid for gas out of my own pocket. Did not take mileage, did not have a company vehicle, etc. Just taking the standard mileage deduction I could have taken an additional 18k in expenses. He was too big and busy and I was too small of a fish in his pond.

I would talk to several accountants. Many are CPAs, I am an enrolled agent. We are licensed by the federal government whereas CPAs are licensed by the state. I have a degree in Business Management, an MBA and went back to school and took over a years worth of accounting courses. To get a degree in accounting I would have been required to take a total of 1 class in taxation. The primary focus of CPA training is to be able to properly do accounting for corporations according to Generally Accepted Accounting Principles which differs greatly from taxation.

There are many good accountants who are CPAs. There are also more than a few who are not. Some of the clients I have taken on who had previously used CPAs were not well served in my opinion and some were very well served. The point is don't just rely on a professional designation to choose your accountant, though that may be a good place to start. Talk to several, see how you get along, ask what service they provide, what they need from you, how long it takes them to get your financial reports back to you. Are they too big for you?

I feel that a big strength that I offer my clients is that I have been in business for myself (not as an accountant) for a number of years and I understand that most small business people do not understand how diligent they must be with their record-keeping and timely submission of records to tax authorities. I have many that started out with me clueless and have grown to be very good clients. I also have some I have asked to leave. My job is to organize and simplify their time spent keeping records and complying with law, while pointing out ways to best save them money.

You are right, it not easy to find an accountant that fits your needs the way that it should, but don't be afraid to change to a different one until you find that one that fits. Believe me, you will know that when it happens. Hope this helps.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks Gary.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mark, as painful as it is it may be to your advantage to dig into the states requirements for running a small business. You may find that it is more advantages to move your operation to SC or NC because you are already there some of the time, tax wise. It doesn't matter where you live especially if you are a migratory beekeeper. Bartering, and trading services is a slippery slope because it cuts out income taxes both ways. This should never appear on your books. Having no employees and making a sizable profit is a red flag to an auditor. Sometimes it is smarter to charge each other a very small fee so there is a record and pay the associated taxes. The auditor cannot argue whether you got it for cheap but he can say you bartered for nothing and it will be the bartering that he can hammer you on. 

Let me just say this, there is not an accountant that will take responsibility for your tax liabilities. He/She will only take your numbers and place them in the appropriate forms for tax filing. Those numbers are your numbers and it is up to you to verify them come audit day. They can assist you on how to juggle the numbers so it is to your advantage but if you give them numbers, substantiated or not they are your numbers not theirs.

I don't think 1099's are just a formality. Nothing involving the IRS and the state government (at least in NY) should be taken lightly. I have to believe that every new start up business supports 3 state employees, maybe 6 at the speed they move.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Ace....
There are rules that state which State is your tax State. That does not mean you can't change your tax state, but that requires a change in residency and depends on how many days you actually reside in that state.

Bartering & trading is ALLOWED as long as there is an accounting for it and it should ALWAYS appear on the books! See form 1099B. Today's accountant better NOT just put your numbers on a form. There is a much greater degree of fiduciary responsibility today. But it is true, they are your numbers, not theirs. 

If you record your transactions properly, 1099's ARE just a formality. They are there to inform the IRS that certain transactions have taken place. But you should have already recorded those anyway. 

Ace, I hope you use either a CPA or enrolled agent to prepare your taxes. A LITTLE knowledge is dangerous.


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## NonTypicalCPA (Jul 12, 2012)

snl said:


> Just make sure he/she is a practicing CPA........


Excellent advice! But I'm a little biased. 

I've got a lot of ag clients in my practice, but no beeks. Ag taxes can be different than the average return, a couple items stand out like income averaging and income deferral under certain circumstances. In order to be a "farmer" for tax purposes, 2/3rds of your gross income has to be from the farm.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

snl said:


> Ace....
> There are rules that state which State is your tax State. That does not mean you can't change your tax state, but that requires a change in residency and depends on how many days you actually reside in that state.


What state does a truck driver live in? How about a retired teacher making 90% of their last six years salary?



> Ace, I hope you use either a CPA or enrolled agent to prepare your taxes.


Of course, just having the CPA's signature on your return will remove a big red flag from the IRS browsers. It is not economically feasible for the agents to go after pilfering. They have to go after the racketeer to make it worthwhile.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

snl said:


> If you record your transactions properly, 1099's ARE just a formality. They are there to inform the IRS that certain transactions have taken place. But you should have already recorded those anyway.


They are there to hang the person out to dry if they don't report the money they received as income.

I get it, you are an accountant probably working for big corporations. If I have a guy volunteer to help me extract my honey and I buy him lunch or breakfast I am going to rip up that receipt walking out the restaurant door and nobody knows otherwise. The whole point of bartering on a small scale is to avoid taxes and red tape from government bureaucracies. Of course it is not legal but if you remove all records of the transactions every existing it never did. Don't take someone out to lunch and then put it in your books as an expense. That would be foolish.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> That would be foolish.

The really foolish thing is to take seriously accounting and tax advice from a 'bird that posts comments like this:



Acebird said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Full thread here:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?264380-Beekeeping-is-a-very-cheap-hobby​


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Now that's just plain unfair, using someones own words against them. lol


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Ace,
You need to stick with what you know and it's not accounting or taxes! 

If you're in business and someone helps you to extract, you buying him lunch is NOT taxable to him, but it is a business expense to you! So throwing away that receipt is just plain .........foolish!

1099's are not there to screw you unless you screw yourself buy not reporting!

A truck drivers state is where he has his domicile regardless of where he drives.

I have no idea of what you're talking about regarding a retired teacher, I don't think you do either.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader, how many people file a tax form on their hobby? Do you?

This year I went from one hive to three and have yet to spend a dime this year on my hobby. It can be done and there are those who agreed with me. Read the whole thread again if your memory is failing you.

Mark there is nothing unfair about a person who gives a link that disproves his argument. However it is NTS. Do you feel the "That would be foolish" comment is in error?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

snl said:


> If you're in business and someone helps you to extract, you buying him lunch is NOT taxable to him, but it is a business expense to you!


So where does the 1099B come in for bartered service?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Acebird said:


> So where does the 1099B come in for bartered service?


It does not come into play on a lunch. You merely bought him lunch which again is not taxable to him and IS an expense to you.

On a 1099B, you barter $600 of honey for $600 of services........that's one example of needing the form. 
I'm not going to give you all the rules for providing 1099's .......go to irs.gov and find them. But please stop posting like it's gospel on that which you know next to nothing about.......


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> This year I went from one hive to three and have yet to spend a dime this year on my hobby.


This is how Acebird can claim that he has spent no money on beekeeping this year, in his own words:



Acebird said:


> I did not say I didn't spend any money, I said it could be done. And I know people that have done it for years. To answer your question, nothing. _*My wife pays for everything.*_


Here is a link to the complete thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ping-is-a-very-cheap-hobby&highlight=purchase


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Rader Sidetrack,

Thanks for the reminder, that is a classic thread.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Rader, how many people file a tax form on their hobby?


Still throwing curves? Can't answer the question?
I will make it clearer, no one spent any money this year on the three active hives I now have. Pretty cheap hobby I would say.


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## VeggieGardener (Oct 4, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Rader, how many people file a tax form on their hobby? Do you?


Actually if you earn income from a hobby you are legally required to complete a tax form and report it. Like many other things in the tax world some people report it and others don't.

And yes, that receipt for lunch that you would throw away really is a valid business expense that could be deducted.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Does the person have to be an employee?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Does the person have to be an employee?


If you're referring to buying lunch, dinner or small gift, the answer is no....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What about my own meals while out working bees not on my own property? Is my own meal deductable? I know there is a meal allowance for overnight travel, but what about w/in driving distance of home base?

ps: snl, that would be Yogi Berra


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

VeggieGardener said:


> And yes, that receipt for lunch that you would throw away really is a valid business expense that could be deducted.


I am sure it could but trading lunches for a days labor is not a discussion I want to take up with an agent. I don't know where the line is drawn but somewhere between a big operation and small operation trading lunches for labor will be a problem. I ain't going there.
Big brother has made it more difficult to claim expenses than what it use to be. Making sure all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed isn't worth claiming a 5 dollar lunch which will only make a reduction in taxes about .80. Is the red tape worth 80 cents? Not to me.


> What about my own meals while out working bees not on my own property?


Are you working your bees or someone else's?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I am sure it could but trading lunches for a days labor is not a discussion I want to take up with an agent.
> 
> Are you working your bees or someone else's?


I don't think anyone mentioned trading lunch for a days work. I certainly wouldn't take that trade. It's an expense of doing business, not a trade for services.

My own.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mark have you read this publication?
http://www.irs.gov/pub//irs-pdf/p463.pdf


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No. Thanks for providing it. I will read it.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> What about my own meals while out working bees not on my own property? Is my own meal deductable? I know there is a meal allowance for overnight travel, but what about w/in driving distance of home base?
> 
> ps: snl, that would be Yogi Berra


Gotcha on Yogi.......was just messing around there. But the answer to your question is No. You are not away from your tax home substantially longer than a days work..........


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > The really foolish thing is to take seriously accounting and tax advice from a 'bird ...



This thread sould have ended with BeeTax's last post.


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## BhavKaur (Dec 18, 2020)

Hi,

Thanks for posting here. I would suggest you to stick with QuickBooks Software itself.

Whatever the business is, if the department is accounting, you can always go with QuickBooks and its latest versions. Intuit has recently done some amazing work in upgrading its flagship accounting software and now QuickBooks is best suited for every kind of accounting activity like inventories, tax-filing, etc. 

Moreover, you can easily host any QB desktop application on cloud-servers of third-party hosting providers for mobility and scalability benefits.


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