# Relative Mite Counts in a Treatment-Free Context



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

My apologies if this question has already been posted, but I am curious as to what if any conclusions/patterns can be derived from relative mite counts at various points in the season in an explicitly treatment-free management setting?

This year marks the first full season of my personal effort at treatment-free management and all regressed colonies. While doing so, I have maintained oil traps for SHB (maybe considered a treatment) and can observe relative mite drops which differ by hive and by time of year.

Beyond the obvious observations to be made relative to drone populations and egg laying, have any of you more-experienced treatment-free keepers been able to determine anything predictive regarding relative mite counts throughout the year? Have you employed counts in guiding any interventional management you do?

Thank you for your input. I really enjoy gleaning so much practical advice from this forum.

Russ


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I try to find a threshold by monitoring mite counts on the slides once in spring, once after splitting when the first brood hatches, and once in summer before winter bee breeding.
I count ten days in a row counting every day at the same time and taking the average. If the numbers stay the same up to late summer and under my threshold of 30-40 mites a day I do not treat. If they rise, I treat in late summer.
Future is to treat by culling a capped brood comb.
Plus: I´m looking for VSH and microscope the mites if they are bitten.
I plan to breed from the best then when they survive winter.

View attachment Milbenmonitoring 2018-2.pdf
View attachment Milbenzahlen 2018 bis Herbst-4.pdf


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

SiWolKe:

Thank you for the excellent input and the feedback concerning how you evaluate mite counts in your own apiary. Very fascinating information. I am impressed that you are actively looking for mite-biting behavior via a microscope- this is something I will have to add to my apiary "wish list".

Thank you again for your reply and detailed treatment threshold protocol. I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i've only taken a handful of samples and all of them have been in the fall using alcohol wash.

the mite counts ranged from 8% to 14% which is pretty high by most standards.

i picked my longest lived colonies to sample and in most cases they survived winter and built up to be good honey producers the next season despite the high mite counts.

one of these days i hope to have the time to do more frequent sampling as well as track # of frames of brood and other metrics to be able to use randy oliver's mite model.

with these data and the model one can generate what is referred to as an 'r' value which is a measure of a colony's mite resistance.

this 'r' value can then be used to compare one's stock to other stocks for which that value has been determined, as well as using that information to select breeder queens.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

These mite counts are of value when dealing with generic, commercial bee with near 0 resistance.
Then high count is bad and low count is good - straight forward.
Then these numbers are fine predictors.

Per my scanning of the TF sources, it feels as-if mite counts are not very useful when dealing with resistant bees.
Since the "resistance" a multi-variable equation, where the variables vary population to population - the counts become less useful.
Some bees are operating fine with higher counts (as SP shows here).
Some bees are operating at the lower counts as a norm and that what they require and maintain.
Some bees are somewhere in between.

Meanwhile, things are changing upon every new mated queen and the bee context is changing around that queen.

This is now a gray area and I like the other SP's approach - just ignore the counts because no one really knows the meaning of those numbers and how to react to those numbers in a meaningful way.
If the bees stay afloat whatever the number - that what really matters.
I don't know what my counts are.
I just know there are mites and don't lose sleep over it.

Well, OK, if you have time and desire - go ahead and count your mites.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

You are very welcome, Russ.

Here is the microscope I use, it´s cheap but working beautifully. A member here, Nordak, sent me the link once.
You can take it with you to the yards and make pictures with your smartphone and if you are a family man your kids will be fascinated!
here a pict:









https://www.amazon.de/Carson-MM-300..._5?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1540884129&sr=1-5



> I don't know what my counts are.
> I just know there are mites and don't lose sleep over it.


Yes, loose your bees but not sleep.
My high losses hurt me but I want to stay tf. I´ve had survivors always which drives me on.

My co-worker one week ago killed two of my splits I gave to him having this your opinion. It went as far as neglecting the food situation because he believes the bees must survive on their own but they starved.
That said,
I want to know whether my high mite number hives survive or whether my low mite number hives die, I want to see whether my managements to prevent drift succeed.
I want to propagate mite biting because I rather fight the source of things not the symptoms.
I´m a curious person who wants to know everything happening and I try to see some correlations because I want to improve my hive configurations.
Plus, I want to see if the genetics water down with my open mating.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Squarepeg:

Thank you for your helpful response. It is most appreciated. So if I understand you correctly, your long-term goal would be to promote queen genetics which are driven at least in part based on the baseline mite load in the hive season-over-season? Part of my rationale for asking the question is that my (admittedly unscientific) observations of relative mite drop throughout the season seem to have no discernible pattern either within or between hives other than the predictable (i.e. relatively high bee population = relatively high mite drop). It may very well be that by keeping close tabs on this information at frequent intervals over a period of years as it appears SiWolKe is doing, one may be able to develop an analog between mite drop and colony response at various points throughout the year that might help steer TF management practices? Thank you for your input- it is most appreciated!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV:

Thank you for the excellent observations. I have observed that many in the TF community regard relative mite counts as unimportant and I can certainly appreciate that position. As you said, _"If the bees stay afloat whatever the number - that what really matters."_ And, I agree this is by far-and-away the most important consideration.

Also, I concur with your assessment that, _"...resistance" a multi-variable equation, where the variables vary population to population - the counts become less useful."
_
So the question in my mind is can anything predictive be gleaned from these values, either in isolation at a particular point in time (i.e. Fall Winter Bee Rearing) or evaluating a baseline over a period of years (i.e. seasonal average mite drop) to help direct any management decisions? If I understood SP correctly, it sounds like he might consider promoting queen stock that all things equal comes from colonies that have lower average relative mite loads.

Thanks again for the input. I really appreciate it.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

SiWolKe:

Thank you for your reply. The microscope image you posted is impressive and you are right- my kids would really enjoy being a part of this kind of experiment. This might also help justify the expense as now it is educational

I really appreciate your scientific approach to your apiculture and the fact you are trying to establish predictive markers which might help you make management decisions in your apiary going forward, including whether open-mating is augmenting or diminishing any VSH / mite tolerant genetic profiles in your yard.

Thanks again for your input. I do appreciate it.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Thanks for the link to the microscope Sibylle. That looks like it would be handy for several applications for me.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

SiWolKe said:


> ..Yes, loose your bees but not sleep..
> 
> ..I´m a curious person who wants to know everything happening and I try to see some correlations because I want to improve my hive configurations..


Yes, I have been told many times now how I mismanage and abuse my livestock. 
By these standards, Siberian hunters also mismanage their hunting dogs (because they leave them outside to sleep in the snow).
I am just doing what MB or SP have been doing for long time now. 
Why don't you call them out too then.
So, let's move on.

Look, I am curious too.
But I also have other life happening around me (my kids, for example, are much more important than my bees; so the bees lose).

So, I have no time for micro-management down to mite counting daily and such.
In fact, value of the micro-management is in question very much for an average backyard beek without well qualified scientific goals.
The more micro-details you learn, the less you know what to make of them and how to react if at all - micro-details can be end-less and require time and dedication to digest. 
Some of these micro-details are plain human errors and not even real facts.

I stick to macro-management - ongoing apiary expansion/geographic colony distribution and redundancy/my own drone production and drone coverage/colony splitting/natural comb/hive designs supporting small colony management/acquiring promising queens and testing those lines by hard bonding (I got 4 promising mutt lines in testing just as we speak - no fuss and no fancy names to brag about - just some mutt bees).


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

GregV said:


> Yes, I have been told many times now how I mismanage and abuse my livestock.


You are not alone I rarely do counts, because ultimately I will not treat the colony. The counts that are done are for curiosity purposes of boomers or slackers, & are isolated if needed. Re-queened, never allowed to totally crash, and/or get robbed out.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Litsinger said:


> SiWolKe:
> 
> Thank you for your reply. The microscope image you posted is impressive and you are right- my kids would really enjoy being a part of this kind of experiment. This might also help justify the expense as now it is educational
> 
> ...


Thanks Russ.
Introducing queens in some queenless splits I used capped comb from a highly infested colony. This colony survived two seasons and one winter but was one of my strongest despite a mite drop of + - 200 a day in summer 2017 for some weeks, it came out of winter the strongest of all. Now mite numbers are not as high but I have restricted them to a nuc with my managements. 
I did not do this on purpose, I used the combs because they were so many and the others were weaker.

The splits and queens I donated them either brought down the mite numbers very quickly or the numbers stayed just as high as before. One hive´s numbers rose daily, I treated those to make them last until winter to crash ( I don´t want to set free mite bombs in my beeyards.)

The countings mean to me not to disturb the hives too much as with alcohol wash or looking at brood frames. Allcohol wash is not giving you an overall view of what happens daily in many weeks, it just shows the status of one moment. I believe the bees communication ceases for some time with opening a hive. 
Bees talking to each other is important because the bee hive is a unit and unites to defend.

Providing the colonies with robber screens all season long and placing them some m apart has reduced the drifting very much, so it´s getting more easy to evaluate a colony. 
I´m not moving frames except while splitting so the colonies must develop on their own.
The only thing I do is to feed when they starve or when I do small splits. The moment they are able to care for themselves I watch how they develop..and compare.

The colonies which get bigger and bigger in short time are those crashing the first normally. There is no balance in this hives and not much defense. The mite numbers confirm this.
The one hive talked about above is an exception but I was not able to let them be undisturbed this year, I needed the bee numbers after my losses.

But I need much more time for my observations. I had to learn about tf beekeeping under my circumstances first and this learning must go on.
2015 I started to do bond following MB, but I quickly realized it would make my bees extinct in no time, no matter if I use more resistant stock. I have to breed from the best and shift the queens or move the susceptibles to another beeyard so not to have those drones near. It´s just too crowded with neighbor bee hives, my locations.

This managements will go on forever I fear as long as treaters are around me. But I don´t care about the work, I just want bees tf.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Siwolke “I want to know whether my high mite number hives survive or whether my low mite number hives die, I want to see whether my managements to prevent drift succeed.”

How do you manage drifting? Thanks, Deb


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Cloverdale said:


> How do you manage drifting? Thanks, Deb


I use robber screens all season long and I place apart the hives as much as possible. The entrances of the robber screens are going into different directions.
Compared to former times I estimate the drifting to be reduced 40%.

View attachment Platzierung Elgon.pdf


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Litsinger said:


> So if I understand you correctly, your long-term goal would be to promote queen genetics which are driven at least in part based on the baseline mite load in the hive season-over-season?


perhaps. it would at least be interesting to see how much of a correlation there is or isn't between measured resistance and survival/productivity.

what i've been doing so far is looking to my longest lived colonies and their offshoots as a starting point for breeder queen selection. along with longevity i'm interested in response to swarm prevention and honey production which tend to go hand in hand with each other.

that said i haven't done any grafting for a couple of seasons now. most of this year's splits were made with emergency cells produced above an excluder after pushing the queen down below it. (sort of snelgrove like)

i also picked up a few queens that ended up surplus to a 22 year treatment free friend operating in the next county over from here.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

SiWolKe: Very fascinating feedback- you have put much more thought into this topic than I, and I enjoyed considering some of the hypotheses you put forth. For what it is worth, I do hope you are able to develop resilient survivor stock in your area that makes your TF efforts progressively easier over time. Maybe you simply need to flood your area with survivor drones who will change everyone's genetic pool for the better 🙂 Thank you for your help and input. I do appreciate it!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Squarepeg: As always, you have excellent and imminently practical advice. As you pointed out, it seems prudent to, "...see how much of a correlation there is or isn't between measured resistance and survival/productivity."

Ultimately, the question in my mind is whether mite counts (either in isolation or in conjunction with other variables) provides any predictive information that one could utilize in their management. It seems that the responses suggest it might factor in one's breeding program but may not have immediate bearing in most instances on seasonal management decisions of individual hives. Thank you for your help. I sincerely appreciate it!


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Mite resistance by definition is the limitation of the mite population so it dosen't build up to high numbers (or build as fast)

Mite tolerance is the ability to deal with high mite numbers. 
Kefuss etal 2015


> According to Schneider and Ayres
> (2008), resistance and tolerance are two separate major
> pathways for survival to infestations. Raberg, Graham,
> and Read (2009) define resistance as “the ability of a
> ...


Mite tolerance is not often seen in survivor stock, likely do to the fact its viruses that cause the crashes, and they are constantly changing. As a whole the long and short is hives with the lowest counts do best as they suppress the vector. Be it , keffus, Gotland, or the Arnot forest, that's the mechisim that keeps coming out on top. tolerance at the moment is a pipe dream


> In honey bees, Danka, Rinderer, Spivak, and Kefuss
> (2013) defined resistance as the ability of a hive to
> “keep V. destructor at a relatively low level”. Efforts to
> document resistance to varroa focus on the maintenance
> ...


one only needs to look at Kefuss 2015 to see the results..


> In both test populations, the number of mites found per 100 bees decreased compared to that found on the original population 1 of 1999 where 75% of the colonies had more than 5 mites per 100 bees. In 2001, 66.2%, 2002 65.5%, 2008 87%, 2009 92%, and 2010 80.8% of the colonies had less than 5 mites/100 bees











hives with high mite counts "removed' them self from the study.
Mite counts are very predictive to a hives survival. The key for TF fokes is to us a larger threshold number.. your looking for a number that tells you that hive is not going to be TF and to remove its genetics, traditional thresholds are set for production and economic reasons 



> The countings mean to me not to disturb the hives too much as with alcohol wash or looking at brood frames. Allcohol wash is not giving you an overall view of what happens daily in many weeks, it just shows the status of one moment. I believe the bees communication ceases for some time with opening a hive.


studys suggest the opposite. The alcohol wash is the gold standard for research
sticky boards are just short of tea leaves, and practically meaningless unless you know whats going on inside the hive.

swinging back around
sold time tested beekeeping is what is needed... not tea leaves, pipe dreams, and faith based beekeeping


Robert G Danka, Thomas E Rinderer, Marla Spivak, and John Kefuss-2013 Comments on: “Varroa destructor: research avenues
towards sustainable control”



> selecting “blindly” for resistance, i.e., by
> using an approach that simply targets low mite infestations. This has
> already, however, been documented to be a viable breeding approach
> that has led to honey bees that now are used by both small-scale and
> ...


breeding by mite counts works, and works well. Spiting what lives.....not so much



> Honey bee strains that are resistant to varroa are a valuable resource
> that beekeepers are using successfully. Although these bees
> have not completely solved the problem, we are in fact moving toward
> the ideal of sustainable varroa control described by Dietemann et al.
> ...


an IMP path is likely the fastest and most realistic way forward.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Litsinger said:


> SiWolKe: Very fascinating feedback- you have put much more thought into this topic than I, and I enjoyed considering some of the hypotheses you put forth. For what it is worth, I do hope you are able to develop resilient survivor stock in your area that makes your TF efforts progressively easier over time. Maybe you simply need to flood your area with survivor drones who will change everyone's genetic pool for the better �� Thank you for your help and input. I do appreciate it!


The flooding with drones will not work, because I can´t have so many hives and my locations are flooded by weak genetics.
My aim is to work with others as a group to find an isolated mating place, either for open mating different survivor lines ( diversity) or artificial inseminate. I hope it works out.



> studys suggest the opposite. The alcohol wash is the gold standard for research


I left behind the belief in studies under unrealistic circumstances and being to short in time and follow my own research. Science never helped me much and in my hives I rather see different things happen which are never considered.
To a research believer this might be absurd but as beekeeping is local there is no standard to be followed.
I did the alcohol wash in sweden but I saw that it did not give exact numbers so it must be repeated. I saw that mite biting was not considered which I think most important.



> sticky boards are just short of tea leaves, and practically meaningless unless you know whats going on inside the hive.


Perhaps it is good for some to learn how to read a sticky board just as much as to learn about the entrance traffic.
Sticky board reading is one of the valuable things I learned in bee class 2014 because it´s part of a treatment management here and taken very serious.

I found it interesting that I was contacted by professional research scientists after the austrian conference. They use the data of all tf beekeepers they know of to find out about the location impact.
That´s a very good approach and shows that past reseach did not lead to standard results we might use. It was Yves Lecompte who did this. He works with J.Kefuss.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Thanks MSL, excellent info. Deb


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

There is lots of uncertainty with mite counts and thresholds. It should be understood because of population dynamics of bees, brood rearing etc through the season, that a mite count may not mean that much, especially early summer and spring. To fully understand the mite situation, we must do a time series of mite counts year after year using both alcohol washes and brood samples together with estimates of brood and adult bee populations. Luckily, this is for understanding, not for success. Nature doesn't need our understanding to succeed. But it should illuminate what is going on with successful hives. Maybe virus titres are needed as well to fully understand. 


The distinctions between tolerance and resistance are somewhat artificial. For me, resistance is having a predictable mite population dynamic between years in hives that survive. That means, they don't build year upon year. They are in the range of X percentage in the spring, and in the range of Y percentage in the fall year after year. It could be that hives needing lower mite thresholds, actually are having problems with viruses themselves. Unlike some on here, I think this is probably an artificial situation where bees are continually exposed to new viral varieties due to people moving bees. Bees have general mechanisms to deal with mites and viruses and can deal with them if not too dynamic. Indeed there must be or we would all (bees, humans, or any other multicellular organism) succumb to viruses and bacteria. This is a ignored bit of theory when we talk about promotion of virulence and the role of mites. This may be a short term phenomena within a larger framework.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I have started doing mite counts in brood in late summer as I do my last harvest. I choose this time as the mite situation would be at its worst theoretically. Also I can get a sense of vsh in my population. The mite drop data is not so useful in itself, but combined with alcohol washes, gives a good sense of relative grooming vigour. Also looking at the mites themselves lets one know if active antagonistic grooming is being done, and whether the bees can detect mites, an important 1st step in resistance.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

I thought that the honey bees could not detect a mite as a mite because they smell like the hive. ?


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I don't know about mites, but SHB can even trick honey bees into feeding them.

Alex


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Cloverdale said:


> I thought that the honey bees could not detect a mite as a mite because they smell like the hive. ?


I should say like a bee not just the hive.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Litsinger said:


> Part of my rationale for asking the question is that my (admittedly unscientific) observations of relative mite drop throughout the season seem to have no discernible pattern either within or between hives other than the predictable (i.e. relatively high bee population = relatively high mite drop).





msl said:


> Mite tolerance is not often seen in survivor stock, likely do to the fact its viruses that cause the crashes, and they are constantly changing. As a whole the long and short is hives with the lowest counts do best as they suppress the vector. Be it , keffus, Gotland, or the Arnot forest, that's the mechisim that keeps coming out on top. tolerance at the moment is a pipe dream
> 
> one only needs to look at Kefuss 2015 to see the results..
> 
> ...





Juhani Lunden said:


> Interesting for the IPM enthusiasts are their remarks in the discussion part of the study:
> “…This suggests that, as infection persisted, colonies reacted more strongly to the presence of varroa. The positive slopes of the regression lines indicate a tendency for both races to eliminate a higher percent of varroa as the infestation level increased. This high elimination may be a simple population threshold reaction. Care must be taken when using high varroa fall as an indicator of susceptibility. Under certain conditions on the contrary, high varroa fall may simply represent lower receptivity… This means that by itself varroa fall is not a valid indicator of susceptibility.”


It looks close to a proven fact that mite infestation is going down in a long term TF apiary management. In the MSL message there were the numbers from Kefuss study, every year more and more hives had less than 5% infestation. I personally think 5% infestation (mites on adult bees) is the lowest possible threshold for a soft bond method to work.
But as a comment to the OP: Mite drops are fluctuating, and maybe even close to useless, whereas alcohol wash/sugar roll is much more suited to get an idea of the situation in a colony.

That said I have to remind myself that it was highly variable mite drops between hives in the same apiary back in late 1990s that caught my curiosity and lead to this where I am today. So they have a function too.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> It looks close to a proven fact that mite is going down in a long term TF apiary management


more to the point... higher infestation hives die off and the mids were re queened. 
many outhers as well... but ALLSOPP 2006 gives us a clear view in to what a resistant hive should look like


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Cloverdale said:


> I thought that the honey bees could not detect a mite as a mite because they smell like the hive. ?


They detect the mites by stress symtoms of the sisters and hormones send out from the attacked pupa.



> . I personally think 5% infestation (mites on adult bees) is the lowest possible threshold for a soft bond method to work.


Juhani, what about higher level hives which survive and are without virus effect?


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Siwolke “They detect the mites by stress symtoms of the sisters and hormones send out from the attacked pupa.”

Can you tell me what research or paper you got this information from? I’d be interested in reading it. Thanks.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Siwolke “Juhani, what about higher level hives which survive and are without virus effect?”

How can you tell there are no virus effects?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Can you tell me what research or paper


Rinderer ET AL 2010
_indicated that VSH bees remove mite-infected pupae whether mite offspring are present or not (Harris et al. 2009 ,2010 ). Therefore, increased NR is caused by other aspects of hygiene. For example, uncapped pupae are sometimes recaptured by non-hygienic bees within a hygienic colony (Arathi et al.2006 ), and this frequently occurs in VSH colonies (Harris, 2008 ). Perhaps reproduction by Varroa is disrupted by the uncapping of the brood cells, and some uncapped pupae are recaptured with NR mites inside them. Because VSH bees remove mite-infested pupae, it seems unlikely that the stimulus is triggering. Neither odor nor movement of adult Varroa mites elicit removal of mite-infested brood (Aumeier and Rosenkranz, 2001 ). Therefore, the stimulus for VSH probably originates from odors of infected hosts (Martin et al.,2002 ); however, there are other possible triggers for the removal of mite-infested brood, and the specific cues remain unknown (Vandame et al.2002 )._
https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/full_html/2010/03/m09127/m09127.html


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Cloverdale said:


> Siwolke “They detect the mites by stress symtoms of the sisters and hormones send out from the attacked pupa.”
> 
> Can you tell me what research or paper you got this information from? I’d be interested in reading it. Thanks.


http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-varroa-problem-part-5/#the-bees-tactics


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Cloverdale said:


> Siwolke “Juhani, what about higher level hives which survive and are without virus effect?”
> 
> How can you tell there are no virus effects?


Because the hives with high virus effects ( defect bees, paralyse ect.) are not thriving and are crashing.

I don´t know the percentage of my hive´s infestation because I did not do alcohol wash and it´s hard for me to estimate the numbers of bees which are in my boxes because I do not disturb much and I see that the foraging bees numbers change to a high degree between times when there is no foraging and times of very good flow. So I would have to monitor by alcohol wash when the bees are at home, but I have a day job and it´s not easy for me to do this. That´s one of the reasons why I rather count sticky boards.

To me, alcohol wash monitoring is only a good monitoring if I am able to compare bee numbers with mite numbers and if I use nurse bees and if I have no capped brood for the mites to hide in and if I repeat the wash after the recent capped brood hatched. Nobody IME can claim to have correct numbers, so the way I monitor mites is much more correct IMO, because it´s done for a long time constantly.

But if I have hives dropping 200-300 mites a day for weeks and they survive ( I have two colonies like that surviving last winter) and hives dropping 5 a week and all without crawlers I wonder what the parameters of survival are.

I would like to see some statistics done by alcohol wash monitoring showing the rate of survival with different thresholds.
But I fear there are no beekeepers interested in leaving their monitored high level hives untreated to compare this. ( except me)


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> Juhani, what about higher level hives which survive and are without virus effect?


If a colony like that would appear in my hives, I would have difficulties deciding whether it is used for breeding or not. 
But, being curious in nature, I would probably take some grafts for a test.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Juhani Lunden said:


> If a colony like that would appear in my hives, I would have difficulties deciding whether it is used for breeding or not.
> But, being curious in nature, I would probably take some grafts for a test.


:thumbsup:


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> I would like to see some statistics done by alcohol wash monitoring showing the rate of survival with different thresholds.


Kefuss 2015 says it all, we see the point hives "remove" them selfs 



> But I fear there are no beekeepers interested in leaving their monitored high level hives untreated to compare this. ( except me)


:lookout:
WTF.. go do a simple google scholar search
Gotland, Kefuss, Fernando de Noronha’, Arnot forest, African, cape bees, etc. 
there are no bees that live with high mite counts and vuriant virus, none... 
We know restiacnt bees can keep mites in the 3-8% range, and we should breed from those that do at the top end.... the rest are at best useless to us, at worst they are a source of vurlant pathogens 

this says it all 


> I don´t know the percentage of my hive´s infestation because I did not do alcohol wash and it´s hard for me to estimate the numbers of bees which are in my boxes because I do not disturb much


'edit'


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

msl said:


> there are no bees that live with high mite counts and vuriant virus, none...


in my case i have seen mite levels are above the 3-8% range you cite and virology studies performed by dr. stephen martin's group show my colonies have very high levels of the virulent dwv type a virus,

yet my losses are averaging about half the national average and my honey crop is almost double the local average.

randy oliver has posted on bee-l about resistant colonies handling mite infestation rates approaching 15%.

if there there is anything that 'says it all' it is that nothing 'says it all'.

it's clear you have done a lot of homework msl and have a decent command of the literature.

the problem is that with so many variables at play when it comes to beekeeping is results here oftentimes don't translate to results there, i.e. one's 'milage may vary'.

i have seen colonies overcome diseases and pests, survive winter, and produce a better than average honey crop the following season.

like with most science and especially so when it comes to beekeeping our understanding is evolving. there is much more we have yet to learn than we already know.

i don't choose sides and tend to roll my eyes when i see very hard line positions espoused from either side of this topic. i think most here appreciate comments that demonstrate an open mind and mutual respect.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

All:

My apologies for the delay in reply as I have been away from my computer for a couple days.

I've really enjoyed reading the different perspectives, and it is both impressive and humbling the amount of knowledge that you all have accumulated on the subject. I have much to learn. 

Based on the feedback to-date, I get the sense that there is generally consensus regarding the following principles in a Treatment-Free context:

1. Lower relative mite numbers in general are better all things equal versus higher relative mite numbers. 

2. Stable or downward trending relative mite numbers at the same seasonal periods each year are better all things equal versus upward trending values.

3. TF beekeepers are not typically making immediate hive management/manipulation actions based strictly on an observed mite load at any particular point in the season.

4. (Related to #3) TF beekeepers are generally breeding from stock that has lower relative mite numbers year-over-year all other variables equal. 

Taking the above as a foundation I am curious:

For those TF beekeepers that do monitor relative mite loads, what is your management protocol? In other words:

1. What method do you use conduct the count? 

2. How often do you count?

3. What thresholds/ranges/variability markers do you use in testing? 

4. (Related to #3) How do you interpret the results? 

5. (Related to #4) What actions do you take in response to the results?

Thank you very much for your help and excellent input. It is most appreciated.

Russ


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

msl said:


> Rinderer ET AL 2010
> _indicated that VSH bees remove mite-infected pupae whether mite offspring are present or not (Harris et al. 2009 ,2010 ). Therefore, increased NR is caused by other aspects of hygiene. For example, uncapped pupae are sometimes recaptured by non-hygienic bees within a hygienic colony (Arathi et al.2006 ), and this frequently occurs in VSH colonies (Harris, 2008 ). Perhaps reproduction by Varroa is disrupted by the uncapping of the brood cells, and some uncapped pupae are recaptured with NR mites inside them. Because VSH bees remove mite-infested pupae, it seems unlikely that the stimulus is triggering. Neither odor nor movement of adult Varroa mites elicit removal of mite-infested brood (Aumeier and Rosenkranz, 2001 ). Therefore, the stimulus for VSH probably originates from odors of infected hosts (Martin et al.,2002 ); however, there are other possible triggers for the removal of mite-infested brood, and the specific cues remain unknown (Vandame et al.2002 )._
> https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/full_html/2010/03/m09127/m09127.html


Thanks.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Looks like I need to issue an apology to Sibylle !!!

I don't recall what I wrote, I try to chagen peoples positions on an intellectual level, not the person... Seems like I may have been typeing and didn't think it threw.. for that I am sorry.. I do put my foot in my mouth some times..

While I dissagree with many of her positions, we are all better for having her, along with her passion and commitment in the conversation.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I still have access but I´m not takinging it back this time.
SP has my e-mail adress and the permission to give it to those interested.
I need my energy to my project, not to defend myself here. I want to enjoy life with my bees not be abused every time I look into a forum.

Good luck to all and goodbye.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Following-up on relative mite drop numbers, I recently read in Dr. Seeley's 2017 research publication, "Life-history traits of wild honey bee colonies living in forests around Ithaca, NY, USA" the following: "Colonies with mite-drop counts below 30 mites/48 h had nearly zero mortality, but colonies above 30 mites/48 h suffered higher mortality, reaching 100% when count was 90+ mites/48 h." Has anyone conducted periodic 48 h mite counts in a treatment-free paradigm that were significantly above these thresholds in colonies that continued to thrive and overwinter successfully or does this research suggest that there are relative mite drop thresholds at various seasonal development periods that might be predictive of future colony demise? Figure 3 in the publication shows the 6-year results of tri-annual (Pre-Swarm Spring, Post-Primary Swarm Summer and Post-Secondary Swarm Fall) 48 hour mite drop measurements of 23 colony sites and typically show the prototypical relatively low mite figures in Spring, rising through the year and reaching critical mass in the Fall on the hives that ultimately did not overwinter. By my count, there were only two colonies in the study that suffered Winter demise with Fall mite counts below 30, and eight colonies with Fall mite counts above 35 which overwintered successfully (the highest being 79). There are obviously many other factors to consider in this analysis, but does this research square with what everyone is observing in their apiaries?


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