# Mating nuc configuration



## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

How long did you leave the mating nuc frames on the hives before giving up on the queen laying in them? Do you think longer would've worked better?

How about crowding the bees into a five frame nuc, with these frames in an extra box placed on top......crowded will make bees do things they normally wouldn't do. 

I find the best results are had with brood in the mating nucs, so it may be worth the extra effort to get brood into the mini mating nucs. Another thought, could you cut brood comb down to fit the frames? Just some thoughts. I would use them, but after reading of all the problems, it seems that medium or deep 2 frame mating nucs are worth the cost .


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

peggjam said:


> How long did you leave the mating nuc frames on the hives before giving up on the queen laying in them? Do you think longer would've worked better?
> How about crowding the bees into a five frame nuc, with these frames in an extra box placed on top......crowded will make bees do things they normally wouldn't do.


We left them on about 2 weeks, probably longer would have helped. The Qs just would not go up there, even though she was getting plugged up down below. These were in big booming double deeps, fresh back from California loaded with brood, we thought there would be no problem, boy were we surprised. Maybe a smaller cramped colony would work better, we'll try that next year, plus allow more time.



peggjam said:


> I find the best results are had with brood in the mating nucs, so it may be worth the extra effort to get brood into the mini mating nucs. Another thought, could you cut brood comb down to fit the frames? Just some thoughts. I would use them, but after reading of all the problems, it seems that medium or deep 2 frame mating nucs are worth the cost .


I thought about cutting brood also, for about 2 seconds. We had 160 of these to fill, here is where the cost in bees for stocking the regular frame size nucs was cheaper than my time cutting brood for the little ones. 
I tend to agree the regular frames are nice, also because when the queen rearing is done, they can just be incorporated back into any colony for the brood to hatch, unlike those darn little frames which you gotta stack up in consolidation boxes or lose the brood. Trouble is all those brood frames have to initially come from somewhere. This particular spring we had frames of brood to spare but there have been _some_ springs....... 
Sheri


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## Iowabeeman (Mar 9, 2003)

Sheri,

We have had pretty good luck holding bees in the mating nucs by blocking them in for a couple of days. I can't put a percentage on our success rate. We bring in bees from another yard so they don't know the way home. Still, there is always some drifting. Our operation is a lot smaller than yours--only about 100 mating nucs.

Martin Braustein (Malka Queens in Argentina) gasses his mating nuc bees with a shot of CO2 before installation. I have this on video if you want to borrow it. Their isn't any narration. Just some off hand Spanish conversation. I think Martin has an e-mail address in his ad in the Bee Journal. He likes to talk about his methods. He puts the bees in a bulk cage and covers them with a wooden box to gas them. It's pretty slick. Allen Dick was considering going to Argentina to see it done. You might check with Allen to see if he actually got there. they were talking about it at the AHPA meeting in Phoenix.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Sheri:

This year, we are trying more mini nucs (only if I can get the [email protected] grafts to take  ) and we shook bees in a "special" box that was a deep with a piece of wood across it. IT hold 20 mini frames... 10 on each side. Than we shake some bees in it (3 pounds or so) and place a queen in it and than let her lay and draw out comb. Than we break these up in the pockets. This works good.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Iowabeeman said:


> Sheri,
> We bring in bees from another yard so they don't know the way home. Still, there is always some drifting. Our operation is a lot smaller than yours--only about 100 mating nucs.


That is still a lot to keep track of, isn't it,especially if you make more than one round? I don't know how the big boys do it. 


Iowabeeman said:


> Martin Braustein (Malka Queens in Argentina) gasses his mating nuc bees with a shot of CO2 before installation. I have this on video if you want to borrow it. Their isn't any narration. Just some off hand Spanish conversation. They were talking about it at the AHPA meeting in Phoenix.


Phil, I was at Phoenix but spent most of my time in the room with a severe case of flu, food poisoning, something, wish I had seen his presentation, darn!
Why the CO2? I would like to see the video, thanks for the offer. I will PM you later today.(off to pick more queens now, whew)



Chef Isaac said:


> Sheri:
> This year, we are trying more mini nucs (only if I can get the [email protected] grafts to take  ) and we shook bees in a "special" box that was a deep with a piece of wood across it. IT hold 20 mini frames... 10 on each side. Than we shake some bees in it (3 pounds or so) and place a queen in it and than let her lay and draw out comb. Than we break these up in the pockets. This works good.


Yeah, we have the same type consolidation boxes for our mini frames. This is what we put on top of the big double deeps. Your method sounds like a better way to "force" the queen to lay them up. The only problem with this is the bees and queens needed to draw out 160 frames. The Qs would either have to be boughten or taken from 10 other colonies. No free lunch, is there? We should really try something like this next year though. 
Sheri


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I am sooo amazed still at how many resources have to be deadicated to a cell builder. Its tons of bees..... just amazing!


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Sheri:

It seems to me that you had pretty good results with lot number 2 , 86%. I mean what do you need to make it worthwhile? Nothing is 100%, so plan for those losses and make up an extra 20%, sure it's gonna cost, but don't argue with your results. They are what they are, just make slight adjustments and you'll be fine.

I've tried placing the pockets on top as well and it did take forever for the queen to lay up top. Mind you I had bought used comb that was in need of repair (wax moth damage and mold). For my money I would stick with plan # 2. It's very fast. Plan # 3 only got you 7 % better success but you had to wait for the queen to lay in those frames. Will she or won't she? It's hard to plan around that.

Just the other day I stocked 20 mini nucs (Apidea, from Mann Lake). It only took the bees of 1 deep, brood above an excluder. I soaked them with syrup then shook them in a styrofoam nuc, then fed the mini-nucs and stocked them with bee and a cell. I locked them in for 3 days, util the cells hatched. 18 of 20 hatched and are going. This took about 75 minutes. The bees were from the same yard. Should get about 15 queens. I really like the mini-nucs in that so few bees are needed for a queen.

Best of luck.

Jean-Marc


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

ya all ever heasrd of a smoke up box? They use it to populate mating nucs and cell builders.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

jean-marc said:


> Sheri:
> .....pretty good results with lot number 2 , 86%..... Nothing is 100%,......make up an extra 20%...


Yeah, I suppose you're right, I'm just trying to improve results. There are tricks to everything and I don't pretend to know them all. 


jean-marc said:


> I've tried placing the pockets on top as well and it did take forever for the queen to lay up top. Mind you I had bought used comb that was in need of repair (wax moth damage and mold).


Our frames were good, used last season, many had honey pollen etc, _still_ they didn't want them. Finicky gals!


jean-marc said:


> For my money I would stick with plan # 2. It's very fast. Plan # 3 only got you 7 % better success but you had to wait for the queen to lay in those frames.


We took the frames out of story and a half colonies so no waiting, but still extra time digging them out. And they need so many bees to cover. Plan 2 is definitely the cheapest in bees and times.


jean-marc said:


> Just the other day I stocked 20 mini nucs (Apidea, from Mann Lake). It only took the bees of 1 deep, brood above an excluder. I soaked them with syrup then shook them in a styrofoam nuc, then fed the mini-nucs and stocked them with bee and a cell. I locked them in for 3 days, util the cells hatched. 18 of 20 hatched and are going. This took about 75 minutes. The bees were from the same yard. Should get about 15 queens. I really like the mini-nucs in that so few bees are needed for a queen.
> Best of luck.
> Jean-Marc


Thanks Jean-Marc
Good luck with yours as well.
Sheri


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Chef Isaac said:


> ya all ever heasrd of a smoke up box? They use it to populate mating nucs and cell builders.


I've seen bees shaken into the bottom box,(or driven down with Beego) an excluder put on, then smoke the bees up into the top boxes for shaking packages, pulling frames of brood, getting bulk bees for nucs and such. We've done this. Usually we just wait til they move up naturally, as we do enough that by the time you get done you can go back and the bees have gone back up into the top box for the brood there.
I've also heard of basically empty boxes that the bees are smoked into, they just have a couple frames, but haven't used them.
Is this what you mean?
Sheri


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Would setting your mini mating nuc frames into a box for drawing, and then putting in package bees work? You could shake out a bunch of packages and give them a queen and then put them in the boxes for drawing out your frames........ .


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Peggjam:

This is exactly what I am doing. I have three deeps each that have 20 frames in each box. I shook a package in and put a queen in. This is working great!


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Yes, putting bulk bees and a queen into our (already drawn) mini comb would help get them laid in.
I was also hoping someone had a great trick for improving the take on putting broodless frames in the initial batch of mating nucs, avoiding the labor of all that extra comb manipulation. In the spring when everything needs doing at once, time is of the essence.
I suspect Jean Marc is right, just accept the additional loss in exchange for the labor savings. Keeping them locked up on site for a few days definitely helped over last year. Maybe a spray of syrup over the combs next year as a welcome present will also give them more of a mind to stay. Maybe it will keep them busy cleaning up the mess until they forget they want to leave. 
Thanks everyone,
Sheri


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Sheri:

I know that when I shake the bees in the 5 frame styrofoam boxes before stocking the mini's is soak the bees with syrup. I pour it on every frame lengthwise. the bees are kinda wet and they do not fly when the are shaken into the 5 frame nuc box. I can dispense from there. The reason I use these boxes is because i can stock 20 mini's with the bees from 1 deep. It keeps the task manageable. I don't have hundreds of these things.

i also have dadant 2 ways, that can be divided into 4 ways. I have bottoms that can adjust 2 or 4 ways. the inner covers are 2 ways, and stapling plastic on top can replace the inner cover and convert a 2 way into a 4 way. Like the Chef and Peggjam these 2 ways can be stocked with a package, the boxes can be added on top and the 2 queens do not mix. eventually the units can be broken out into 4 ways 4 mating. At the seasons end the frames of bees and brood can be united into the 2 ways and overwintered. It's kinda nice in that I have frames for a queen rearing system. I'd like to do more of this but markets take time to develop and pollination has paid the bills so far and that's kinda hard to give up.

Jean-Marc


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Yeah, the little nucs are very efficient, useing hardly any resources. It always amazes me when I open them up a couple weeks after installing a cell, a cup of bees and a cup of syrup and find a perfect little colony. 

Pollination pays much of the bills here too. We mostly use our queens for requeening our own colonies for just that reason, to assure boomer colonies for Jan-March pollination. (I assume your pollination time coincides with queen rearing time.) We don't make these queens for sale, but are selling more now that people know we have them. 
Sheri


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Sheri,

When making up pockets, that three days in the dark room, are you sure the queen is hatching in the time (window)? This could be part of the problem.

Also, may help, if your not doing so , is cycle graft frame when grafting, this gives better timing of hatch.
Keith


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Hi Keith, 
We are putting the cells in early on day 15, so we are always keeping our fingers crossed we don't get an early hatch before we start, so that is not the problem. We speculate the bees, even though it is a VERY dark room, still want to crawl out. We didn't screen them in, figuring that wasn't needed, but perhaps that would help.

What do you mean by "cycle graft frame"?
Sheri


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

> We didn't screen them in, figuring that wasn't needed, but perhaps that would help.

I think so Sheri, I shake bulk bee for a freind up north.
He fill's forty thousand mating nucs in late feb & march,
what he does is leave them lock up for three days in a dark cold room.At any given time thier are about six thousand nucs in the cold room. He fills about two thousand a day.

>What do you mean by "cycle graft frame"?

Many keepers have the breeder queen caged on a frame by a queen excluder, that way you know the age of the egg.Cycle in a new frame, evening, pull out the next morning and you have a +/- six hour on your graft.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Keith
If we start them in the room again we will screen them in. Our starter colonies go in that room and they can leave if they want but don't, hmmm,wonder what the difference is. Maybe the starters stay in there because they have the larvae to care for....?

Yes, we have a section for the breeder Q, we put the frame in, usually leave it in about 24 hours. It sometimes takes it that long for the bees to get it all polished up and ready to go. I pick the youngest larvae when I graft.
I know keeps that hunt and pick the right size larvae, what a chore that must be.

I am curious, Keith, if the California breeders have a strong honey flow on when they are grafting. It is a pain right now here because the bees want to fill in any frame we put in there, maybe they are too strong? We have them in a single deep, finally put a medium super on them just to give them something to do......
Sheri


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>The brood obviously helps the success rate greatly but uses up WAY more bees to provide for that success.

Is there anyway you could overwinter your mating nucs? I do mine. They're 4 way, deep nuc boxes. After the last round of queens is mated and laying, I remove half the queens and expand the nuc onto 8 mini-frames. This leaves two queens in each box...one on each side of the central divider. In the spring, I add a second box on top, and allow the queens to lay in both boxes. Right now they are boomers, with an excluded super on top, and I'll have no problem making up my 300 mini-nucs when I have cells ready.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Hmmm Michael, Thanks for a great idea!
You have really got me thinking.....We normally send everything out to California so I never even thought about that. Duh!
Our mating nucs are 4 way mediums. We have consolidaion boxes which hold 20 frames each. We need 160 frames of brood for the first batch of queens so 8 full boxes. 4 overwintered queens in these boxes could go into our wintering room and get going plenty early enough for stocking the nucs.
This would work particularly well as we stack these on existing colonies to hatch the final cycle then have to keep track of them and take them back off. If we just stacked the brood up and left a queen in each stack, fed them for winter we would be done. Sounds like a plan.
Thanks to everyone else also.
Sheri


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

*To all that have done it.*

When setting baby nucs for the first time, what do you feed. I read that you can feed liquid or candy, the same that is used for queens. What is the right amount of feeding for 4 days that the nuc is going to bee closed in a cool place (basement)?

Gilman


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

sugar syrup.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Chef Isaac said:


> sugar syrup.


1-1? only one feeding?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

We feed 2:1, sugar syrup, our package mix special. 
Some had a full frame of honey from last year, we figure this will last them easily for the 3 days plus longer, ours are pretty small to do much foraging.
We have a little feeder in there that holds about 2 cups, we fill it about 1/2 full and that is really more than we would like.
I did find one queen that drowned in the feeder,  .
I definitely like the frames of honey better.
We refeed if needed. When doing the first pick if anything is light we feed, or switch out a frame from a heavier nuc.
Sheri


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Thanks,
I have used 5 frame nucs for mating too, this is my first year that I am using mini matting nucs Apidea. They are on foundation.

Gilman


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Gilman
Being on foundation I am not sure how much they would use up. All of ours had at least one full drawn comb, but many had one frame foundation, some had two. The ones we started indoors we gave only frames of honey to so there would be no syrup mess when we took them out. 
We didn't look to see how much syrup was left on the outdoor ones which we gave syrup to. After three days, we just opened their entrances, didn't check them for several days. After about a week anything that had syrup left was shot or needed help. Most had drawn the foundation and filled in with honey/syrup. They were in a honey flow so don't know how they would have done on just the syrup, sorry.
Maybe someone who knows more can chime in here.....

Even with the headaches the mini nucs are great, especially if you are planning multiple rounds of queens. They are so much fun to pick queens from, it is so quick compared to regular 5 frame nucs.
Sheri


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>Even with the headaches the mini nucs are great, especially if you are planning multiple rounds of queens. They are so much fun to pick queens from,

I agree, but there are times...

Twice last summer I was catching queens in my mini-nucs. Looked and looked and looked. Removed all the frames twice...looked in feeder. Lots of eggs, and no queen? 

Finally found them in the grass in front of the nucs. They had bailed out, in their attempt to get away from me.


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