# Frustrated Bee Keeper



## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

I sympathize with your feelings and frustration, and wish I were not 1000 miles away so I could buy you a cup of coffee and talk shop. I had a similar experience, where I was attending 3 bee clubs for a while, and there were zero TB beekeepers there. Every now and then a new person or couple would show up "Anyone do top bar here?" and I would be like the kid who wants to answer in math class "oooo! Me! Me!" We would trade names and email addresses, and then I would never see or hear from them again. Maybe I scared them off... 

(Seriously, I think a lot of people want to "save the bees" and "be natural" and they attend a bee meeting and at some point realize the don't have the time to build a hive and find a package of bees and they move on to pottery or something. None of the folks I've met actually had bees... they were just thinking about it).

I watched every Phil Chandler and McCartny Taylor (OutOfABlueSky on YouTube) video, and also some others on line. (There are maybe 100 channels which show you how to install a TBH, and only 2 which show you how to maintain one, to my mind). I read Chandler's and Magnum's books maybe 8 times each. And hang out here in the forum; there is a lot of knowledge and expertise here. I felt spastic the first year, and am finally beginning to feel more confident and like I'm not going to cause a disaster every time I go in.

I try to go in every Saturday it isn't raining. There have been a few times the bees have driven me off, but mostly we get along. I broke a comb once and killed the queen, but they recovered and I got better. I read traditional lang-centric bee books all the time; you can get good value out of reading those guys. Finally, find a bee club and volunteer to help maintain a hive at a school or in a garden; that experience has helped me a lot. (Jumping into a Lang with a bunch of other folks has a different energy level than maintaining your TBH... it is worth doing whenever you get a chance).

I hate to sound glib, but just keep at it. Go in every week or so. Keep riding the bicycle no matter how wobbly you feel. You'll get better, and it is really hard to mess up so badly the bees cannot recover. Plus: honey!


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## sambucaro (May 16, 2017)

Thank you! Those words are encouraging. I also watch all the you tube videos and read all the books lol. I do feel I know a lot more than I did that's for sure! I broke a comb, was worried I killed the queen, but there is brood that are not drones so I'm guessing all is well. She probably runs like hell when she sees me. I will get back in there. I also feel like my philosophy is way different from langs people. I did a lot of research on treating bees for varroa, etc, and Michael Bush did an excellent presentation on the issues with it. So I may be at the extreme of all natural. What would be happening if they were inside a tree? It seems a lot of keepers treat them to treat them for the sake of treating. If there are no issues, I don't understand it. I also get a vibe at the bee club meetings like I'm not a real bee keeper. I don't know, just seems langs people are not about the tbh life. Anyway, I'll keep getting in there. Eventually it will get easier!


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

Try finding a mentor, the bees are still bees; the mentor may not have experience with issues specific to TBHs but can provide insight about the bees. I strictly use langs but work with some who started their TBHs this year. I'm gaining insight into the TBHs in exchange for providing a bit of bee experience; I believe it's a win/win sharing arrangement.


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## sambucaro (May 16, 2017)

Thanks Eikel, I will!


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

PM sent


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Here are the thoughts I have for my hives at this point in the season. 
Background: I have 6 tbh, that are as wide and as tall as a lang. They hold about 25 bars with spacers. 3 holes 1" in diam at the 1 end for entrances. All were splits or nucs at the beginning of this year. 3rd summer, 2nd with tbhs.

This time of year, I have 2 missions. 
1) make sure a given queen is still alive. Odds of swarming are low, since there is no nectar flow (and I am not feeding), so I am not sweating giving them space or checking for QCs. To do this, I start from the back, and inspect until I see eggs. I note the bar that happens on. If it's bar 12, that has always meant that if I had kept going, brood (in various stages) would have lasted until bar 2. Queens and workers arrange the hive so the brood nest is all brood nest. They will even uncap and remove honey in combs if it is placed in the center of a brood nest. And they very quickly fill empty bars inside that brood nest. 

2) Get honey as soon as it's ripe, or make sure enough stores are being laid down that I don't have to feed. So, I am not checking each queen's brood nest. Some I want just want honey from, since I have a sister and if that queen dies, she'll be replaced next season from her sister or mother. If it turns out their pop is dwindling because they lost a queen, I don't care. I'll combine them when I find out. Needless to say there will be a single intensive end-of-season inspection for those hives where I'm not checking for brood but rather for stores or honey. 

The mission for the inspection determines the depth that I go to. Each comb moved is a risk. Lack of knowledge is also a risk. Gotta balance that!

If you don't mind, I'll share my thoughts on if I had one hive. In that case, it is key to know that there is a queen. If not, one can be purchased. It's too late to start from an emergency queen cell - that's 30 days or so with no brood emerging. I would inspect about every 2 weeks to the edge of the brood nest, checking for larvae or eggs. And I would consider seriously feeding while offering space between every drawn out bar in the honey storage area (I don't do 2 empty bars next to each other, nor do I add at the end of the honey storage area, too risky). If they had not filled out to about 3/4 at this point, I'd feed pretty continuously and offer a lot of space. 

A note on pushig bars together: To get bars together that have lots of bees hanging out on the edges, I first move them to within a bee space. Then I use a thin but firm piece of wood and gently slip it into that gap. This pushes the hangers-on down. Then I push the bars together and remove that thin piece of wood. 

A few notes on side attachments: 
1) I have a tool that a blacksmith made. It's like a thin metal cane, which ends in a long thin foot. I'll post a pic at some point soon... It took this blacksmith a ridiculously short amount of time to make from a 1/4 inch piece of bar. I bet if you find re-enactments or historical societies with a smith, they'll gladly make one! I pull up between the bar and the wall, or in terrible cases, between the good comb and the wonky comb that's being removed. 
2) I use spacers to make the comb wider in the honey area. They are 1/4 inch and as tall as the bars and of course as long as the box. You can probably find decorative molding at a big box DIY store that will fit the bill. Bring a bar with you or measure twice! To cut them, you can use a chop saw - or ask someone with a chop saw if you don't have one. Or even a hand saw. But electricity is your friend here. 
3) I access a bar by first pulling upwards with my custom made cane-with-a-foot to cut side attachments. I can use the hive tool to pull up too. I try hard not to push sideways to cut the attchments. If it's crowded, they don't like it. I sometimes have a smoker lit at my feet, but it doesn't doo much in the hive. Then I slowly use the hive tool as a wedge btwn the bar I want to move and the one next to it. I slowly pry that side apart, always watching to be sure that the comb is moving with the bar. If not, I do the other side. If still not, I just get ready for a problem. This has yet to result in dropped comb.
4) kitchen tongs are a big help. 
5) I use the hive tool to mercilessly cut the hills and bumps that can emerge. Then I try to put wonky faces together and only add between flatter faces. Key word is try....

Hmm, running out of tips. Hope this helps. Asking local lang beeks if they are seeing a contraction in the broodnest is a great thing to do - you and they should be in the same boat for that. If it's too much of a contraction, the way they manage it will work just as well for you. Some things are in common for the two kinds of hives!


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## jlw35 (Jul 26, 2015)

Eikel works as a mentor for myself and my partner. We are first-year beekeepers, and although he uses Langstroths, he is our go to guy for questions and answers.
He has knowledge of bees and behavior and really that is the important thing.

Through our association him, we learned of a beekeeping club that we attended for the first meeting last month.

Bottom line, find a bee mentor regardless of what type of hive they use.

Jeff


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## Thucar (Mar 11, 2017)

Trish, I would really love to see a pic of that hive tool of yours. It sounds very much like something I have been thinking of, as far as a useful TB hive tools go. My neighbor is a blacksmith and a beekeeper following my TBH adventure with great interest. I'm sure I could persuade him into making one for me.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

OK, let's see if I can get the pic thing to work.










There's a hammer in it for scale. it's about 1/4 in thick, but the blade was pounded to 1/8 in thick. The sharper that is, the better - if you are using less strength to pull up, it is smoother and you won't jar when you cut free of the beeswax.


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## Corto (May 29, 2017)

sambucaro, 

If you haven't found it yet, this FB group is a great resource:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/TopBarHiveBeekeepers

I am in Arlington Hts. I have had contact with 10+ beekeepers around the area, all Langstroth, and of varying help. Some think it won't work and they won't survive the winter.

I admit, I have had a good season (I think) so I have done only a few inspections to the end of the brood area. My hive seems to have orientation flights almost every day. No cross combs, all straight, and have only had to remove a couple bump outs here and there.

I assume at some point something will bite me. My biggest concern right now is whether I can fit a second hive in the yard next year.

And, honestly, as I see a bit here, and quite a bit on the FB group, everyone has their own opinions and different ways of doing every single thing. When I said I wanted to be natural and not use smoke, that was fine, until they had honey and stung me. Now I use smoke! When I stated I was considering simply letting them swarm when they feel like it, and just keep one hive, got the ok from some and from others it was like I was a terrible beekeeper for even thinking that. Checking for mites, one side says strong hive, hygienic bees, don't worry about it, other side says must treat or they will die and spread mites to other hives. And so on.

I have found that I am selective in who and what I listen to. I think the mentoring by crowds on FB and here works out just as well as having a physical person with you, if not better, because they only have one of many opinions you find in the groups.

Some awesome bearding last night:


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## Radomire (Jun 14, 2017)

trishbookworm said:


> Here are the thoughts I have for my hives at this point in the season.
> Background: I have 6 tbh, that are as wide and as tall as a lang. They hold about 25 bars with spacers. 3 holes 1" in diam at the 1 end for entrances. All were splits or nucs at the beginning of this year. 3rd summer, 2nd with tbhs.
> 
> This time of year, I have 2 missions.
> ...


Great tips Trish, thank you. I'm worried about my original hive since they basically stopped building comb in June. They swarmed at the end of June and by adding bars I've managed to have them build two and half more combs since then. But its been too long. They have little motivation to build any comb for some reason. I'm trying to figure out why. They have 14 combs right now but its about half of the total space in my TBH. There are honey stores but no combs have only honey, either half of the comb or just the top, that sort of thing. They seem like fine healthy bees. Just won't build like I thought they would. Any suggestions?


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Bees need a nectar flow to build comb. If mother nature didn't provide one when you needed it, then you still have some time to simulate one. You'll need to feed continuously, so they never run out. Probably 2:1 is best to feed, the bees will still draw comb with that, I think. 

I had about 12-15 bars drawn out last year, in a Langstroth - wide tbh, of which only half was honey (and some nectar). The bees were hanging out on about 5 bars by this time last year. Well, they made it fine. Their Varroa counts were in the 2% range . If the "winter bees", the ones who are emerging now, are being well fed and not being sent the signal to help forage, then the hive should be OK. Oh and if they are not under Varroa pressure. If they are, that reduces how long the bees last through the winter and the hive can be too week by spring. 

If most of those 14 bars are well covered by bees, and they have crowded the queen out of laying space with nectar filled combs, then there are no winter bees being born, and the hive cannot last many weeks into the winter. You would think that the bees would know better than to adopt the strategy of crowding the brood nest too early... but it happens. Hate to be a doomsayer, but it's all about those winter bees. At least for those of us who have winter!

Good luck, keep us posted. Sorry OP, we got off topic!


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## Radomire (Jun 14, 2017)

trishbookworm said:


> Bees need a nectar flow to build comb. If mother nature didn't provide one when you needed it, then you still have some time to simulate one. You'll need to feed continuously, so they never run out. Probably 2:1 is best to feed, the bees will still draw comb with that, I think.
> 
> I had about 12-15 bars drawn out last year, in a Langstroth - wide tbh, of which only half was honey (and some nectar). The bees were hanging out on about 5 bars by this time last year. Well, they made it fine. Their Varroa counts were in the 2% range . If the "winter bees", the ones who are emerging now, are being well fed and not being sent the signal to help forage, then the hive should be OK. Oh and if they are not under Varroa pressure. If they are, that reduces how long the bees last through the winter and the hive can be too week by spring.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the help Trish, Yes sorry to highjack your post OP.

I did an inspection today and a Varroa mite count. Using the sugar roll method I go 3 mites out of 300 bees, so thats pretty good I'm happy with that. The brood nest is not crowded with nectar and there are some combs with capped worker brood and some uncapped larvae right now. So it looks like there will be winter bees. 

All the combs are covered with bees for the most part, and the drones have made another appearance as of two days ago. (they were absent for a month or longer prior to this)

Upon inspection today I now suspect that this hive is being robbed. I see little to no pollen and nectar stores, but I see them bringing in pollen every time I watch them. I think this might be a big reason for the halt on comb production. Their honey stores have decreased too. 

Either way I'm keeping them fed and will put a screen in front of the entrance to prevent robbing. They have fresh water, good ventialtion, food, sunlight, 1% mite count, at this point I'm at a loss. My swarm hive is doing great in contrast, building combs quickly with ample stores of pollen and honey


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