# Whether or not to continue trimming PF-120 frames.



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

For a while, I have been trying out narrow frame beekeeping. It seems to work just fine, but the question is the volume.

When I started doing this, I had six hives. I trimmed 180 PF-120 frames and 100 PF-105 frames as I continued to expand. But now I'm working at the 25 hive level and switching largely to mediums. 

I just got in a shipment of 210 more medium frames. With 25 hives at 7 boxes each, that works out to nearly two thousand total frames which will have to be trimmed in the next couple years.

Is that going to be worth my time? Is it going to be worth my time to continue trimming new frames as I sell nucs every year?

What do you think?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

What are your options, if you believe in using narrow frames all you can do is continue doing what you are doing or trim down wood frames or build your own frames. Either way its a lot of work. John


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

would it be pratical to get say a shaper bit cut to the right width??? make the job go fast???


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

A jointer/planer might be a good idea, but that's more money.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

[SUB][/SUB]If you really want to do it you can set up a router table with a straight bit as an edge jointer. Just google it. 

How have you been doing it?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Is that going to be worth my time? Is it going to be worth my time to continue trimming new frames as I sell nucs every year?

i think you have to ask yourself questions like:

"Should I believe and convert to everything I read on the internet?"

And "Are Michael Bush and Dee Lusby for sure correct in all they preach?"

And "Why are there millions of 1 3/8" spaced frames that seem to serve most beekeepers perfectly well?"

And "Is 1 1/4" spacing really the Gospel Truth?"

If your answers to these questions convince you that 1 1/4" spacing is a necessity, it doesn't seem so much extra work to convert them. If down the line you come to the conclusion you have been led down the wrong path, who will you blame? Yourself or your advisers? I myself am leery of all gurus who claim to have found a Golden Truth that I myself have lived perfectly well for decades without knowing. Housel Positioning for example.....if they preach that can you believe all else they say?


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## Serendipidity (Feb 3, 2013)

Did I read something about Kelly was going to offer narrow frames??


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

odfrank said:


> If down the line you come to the conclusion you have been led down the wrong path, who will you blame? Yourself or your advisers?


Ollie, I don't know if you follow my career, but at this point, I am the adviser. Having done it for several years, it's certainly not the wrong path. It is a path. The question is, is this path worth the work? If I had a planer/jointer, I probably wouldn't be asking this question because the effort would be minimal.




Serendipidity said:


> Did I read something about Kelly was going to offer narrow frames??


I don't know if you read it, but I read it. However, the examples I have seen have been of particularly unworkable quality. We shall see. 






P.S. HOUSEL POSITIONING!!!! :lpf: I just love to see the older fellas flip right the heck out when I mention Housel Positioning.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Kellys will sell anything! they could care less of the results or if its decent bee pratice. THEY ARE THE WALMART of the bee suppliers....

Sorry solomon, didn't realize you did not have a woodshop of sorts already.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Ollie, I don't know if you follow my career, but at this point, _*I am the adviser*_.

What are your qualifications as _*the*_ "adviser" other than your name "Solomon"? Any research study documents you have produced? College dissertations? Classes taught? Lecture series? Nine hundred people followed Jim Jones to Ghana and drank the KoolAid. How are you more qualified as an adviser than he was?

And what proof do you have that 1 1/4" frame spacing is better than 1 3/8" frame spacing? My bees die from mites and viruses. Will changing all my frames save them?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Charlie, I do make everything but frames and I have been trimming the frames but it's a bit of work and I'm not entirely sure it's worth it.

Ollie, I do what I talk about. That's all I got to say about that.


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## HiveMind (Jul 6, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_fMYYWYXMg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I believe. It's not necessary to spend money on foundation. Here's the jig I made in one afternoon. Milling down end bars takes me almost no time now.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Solomon Parker said:


> Ollie, I do what I talk about. That's all I got to say about that.


I do what I talk about too. I guess that makes me an adviser as well!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Charlie B said:


> I do what I talk about too. I guess that makes me an adviser as well!


yes, you are highly qualified to advise us on how to run an apiary on the rooftop of a three story building with no elevator.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'm interested in discussing whether or not I should continue shaving frames, with treatment-free beekeepers.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

odfrank said:


> yes, you are highly qualified to advise us on how to run an apiary on the rooftop of a three story building with no elevator.


You've been obviously following my career!


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Solomon Parker said:


> I have been trimming the frames but it's a bit of work and I'm not entirely sure it's worth it.


Seems like you're answeing your own question.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

odfrank said:


> >Ollie, I don't know if you follow my career, but at this point, _*I am the adviser*_.
> 
> What are your qualifications as _*the*_ "adviser"...


Not to involve myself in an argument, but I think this might have been a misunderstanding here...as I read it, I believe Solomon Parker was saying that he's his OWN advisor (in reply to your statement about his blaming either himself, or his advisor). ...but I digress.

Anywise, about shaving down the frames: I find that, given foundationless, "natural comb" conditions, my bees will try to build their brood comb every 1.25," regardless of the width of the bars/frames I give them. This means that when I gave them 1.375" bars/frames, they started building combs off-center & if I hadn't intervened would have created quite a mess for me. What I gathered from that I rip 1/8" off of the bars/frames that I intend to be in the brood nest areas of my hives, and leave 'em at 1.375" for the honey storage area; the bees may disagree with me on exact designations of the "cutoff" between brood and honey areas, but they aren't gluing all the top bars to each other with stray combs anymore 

If you're using foundation, then I could only guess at what benefits your bees may, or may not, gain from the frames being trimmed down to 1.25", but I think setting up 2 table saws for the purpose would serve VERY useful to you, Solomon. Set one to 1.25", and one to 1.3125" (1 1/4" and 1 5/16"), that way you can assembly-line your end bars through both saws, cutting off 1/16" from each side, so they're still "even" and you don't end up with crooked frames if an end-bar gets put on the "wrong way."


EDIT: Oops, opened my mouth too soon...now I see that the PF120s are "those plastic things" ... sorry, not sure I can be much help there...table-saw might melt that stuff & make quite a smelly mess


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Rob, the trimming process works quite well on a table saw, provided the blade is sharp. As I mentioned I have done a total of about 300 frames so far.

Here's some more information to consider: I'm in the process of largely switching to 10-frame mediums. Virtually all my medium frames are PF-120s. All in circulation so far are trimmed to narrow frame standards. Most of my current deep frames are not trimmed and as I sell nucs, I am selling off my existing stock of deep 1 3/8" frames. I will still need to keep hives of that sort due to demand for deep nucs. 

The reasons why I switched to plastic frames are because they are more economical, they require much less labor throughout their lifecycle, and they are much more utilitarian to extract. For drone comb, I use foundationless frames.

Thus far, trimmed PF-120 frames produce just about wall to wall brood. There are seemingly fewer problems with honey comb extended out, but there is less room for error in that respect. They are also drawn extremely well 90-95% of the time and if something does get goofed, it can be simply scraped off.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Solomon Parker said:


> I am selling off my existing stock of deep 1 1/8" frames .


I would advise readers that the above appears to be a typo... I believe that 3/8 " was intended.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Correct.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Sol,

Buy a used jointer, bet it wouldn't set you back $2 - $300. Handy tool to have and doesn't take up much space. Runs on 110v too and safer then using a table saw.

Ollie,
I find regressed bees mess up PF120's and foundationless a lot less with 1 1/4" spacing in the brood nest. 

But, I'm nobody's advisor. :lookout:


Don


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If I had time, I would cut my PF120s down. I don't have the time, and I haven't.

As to 1 ¼" spacing, it wasn't invented by me, or by Dee Lusby.

I can't find exact measurements on the Greek basket hives, but Huber used 1 ¼" frames in the late 1700s. Many proponents over the years have used them and suggested them. Koover, more recently was a proponent. The Russians did studies on them and concluded that they had less Nosema, and more brood rearing with the narrower frames. I just think they are a good way to get small cell more quickly and, also, to get 9 frames of nice straight brood comb in my eight frame brood boxes. 

"...are placed the usual distance, so that the frames are 1 9/20 inch from centre to centre; but if it is desired to prevent the production of drone brood, the ends of every other frame are slipped back as shown at B, and the distance of 1 ¼ inch from centre to centre may be maintained."--T.W. Cowan, British bee-keeper's Guide Book pg 44 

"On measuring the combs in a hive that were regularly made, I found the following result, viz; five worker-combs occupied a space of five and a half inches, the space between each being three-eights of an inch, and allowing for the same width on each outer side, equals six and a quarter inches, as the proper diameter of a box in which five worker-combs could be build...The diameter of worker-combs averaged four-fifths of an inch; and that of drone-combs, one and one-eight of an inch."--T.B. Miner, The American bee keeper's manual, pg 325 

If you take off the extra 3/8" on the last one this is 5 7/8" for five combs divided by five is 1.175" or 1 3/16" on center for each comb.

"Frame.--As before mentioned, each stock hive has ten of these frames, each 13 inches long by 7 ¼ inches high, with a 5/8 inch projection either back or front. The width both of the bar and frame is 7/8 of an inch; this is less by ¼ of an inch than the bar recommended by the older apiarians. Mr.Woodbury,--whose authority on the modern plans for keeping bees is of great weight,--finds the 7/8 of an inch bar an improvement, because with them the combs are closer together, and require fewer bees to cover the brood. Then too, in the same space that eight old fashioned bars occupied the narrower frames admit of an additional bar, so that, by using these, increased accommodation is afforded for breeding and storing of honey."-- Alfred Neighbour, The Apiary, or, Bees, Bee Hives, and Bee Culture... 

"I have found it to be just that conclusion in theory that experiment proves a fact in practice, viz: with frames 7/8 of an inch wide, spaced just a bee-space apart, the bees will fill all the cells from top to bottom with brood, provided deeper cells or wider spacing, is used in the storage chamber. This is not guess-work or theory. In experiments covering a term of years. I have found the same results, without variation, in every instance. Such being the fact, what follows? In answer, I will say that the brood is invariably reared in the brood-chamber -- the surplus is stored, and at once, where it should be, and no brace-combs are built; and not only this, but the rearing of drones is kept well in hand, excess of swarming is easily prevented, and, in fact, the whole matter of bee-keeping work is reduced to a minimum, all that is required being to start with sheets of comb just 7/8 of an inch thick, and so spaced that they cannot be built any deeper. I trust that I have made myself understood; I know that if the plan indicated is followed, beekeeping will not only be found an easier pursuit, but speedy progress will be made from now on."--"Which are Better, the Wide or Narrow Frames?" by J.E. Pond, American Bee Journal: Volume 26, Number 9 March 1, 1890 No. 9. Page 141 

Note: 7/8" plus 3/8" (max beespace) makes 1 ¼".
7/8" plus ¼" (min beespace) makes 1 1/8".

"But those who have given special attention to the matter, trying both spacing, agree almost uniformly that the right distance is 1 3/8, or, if anything, a trifle scant, and some use quite successfully 1 ¼ inch spacing." --ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture by Ernest Rob Root Copyright 1917, Pg 669 

"With so many beginners wanting to know about eleven deep frames in a 10 frame deep Langstroth brood chamber I will have to go into further details. But first this letter from Anchorage, Alaska of all places. For that is as far north as you can keep bees. He writes, I'm a new beekeeper with one season's experience with two hives. A good friend is in the same boat he had read one of your articles on "Squeezing" the bees and tried one of his hives that way result a hive full of bees and honey. This year we will have eight hives with eleven frames in the brood chamber." 

"If you, too, want to have eleven frames in the brood chamber do this. In assembling your frames besides nails use glue. It' a permanent deal anyway. Be sure your frames are the type with grooved top and bottom bars. After assembling the frames, plane down the end bars on each side so that they are the same width as the top bar. Now drive in the staples. As I mentioned last month make them by cutting paper clips in half. They cost but little and don't split the wood. Drive the staples into the wood until they stick out one quarter inch. The staples should be all on one side. This prevents you from turning the frame around in the brood nest. It's a bad practice and it upsets the arrangement of the brood nest. It is being done, but it leads to chilling of brood and it disturbs the laying cycle of the queen. I am talking to beginners, but even old timers should not commit this bad practice. As for the foundation, if you use molded plastic foundation just snap it into the frame and you are ready to go."-- Charles Koover,Bee Culture, April 1979, From the West Column.


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## monrovi (Jan 22, 2012)

From what I have read in your posts, you have had success keeping bees on narrow sc frames. Why change if it is working for you? Yes it takes time to trim but sounds like it has been paying off for you.


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

The biggest reason that I would think sticking with the 1.25" spacing would be,* in your case*, worth it would be to sell more nucs. Over the entire apiary, that extra frame adds up to more overall material to work with and potentially stock into more nucs. A 10% gain in space (10 frame box holding 11) is a pretty good reason unto itself and the ONLY reason I would use the 1.25" spacing. 

Just my .02


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I'm running a mix of std and narrow frames, and the bees don't seem to care.

I don't treat for varroa, (tho I did a sugar shake once in 2011).
I don't see a difference in varroa with narrow frames as they're not a problem with my std frames either.

I quit narrowing my pf frames. 
I don't think it made any difference , and I have better things to do with my time.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

monrovi said:


> From what I have read in your posts, you have had success keeping bees on narrow sc frames. Why change if it is working for you? Yes it takes time to trim but sounds like it has been paying off for you.


Unlike small cell, I have only been using narrow frames for a couple years, and for the most part only with plastic frames. While things have been going swimmingly for those years, most hives are still made up of regular ol' wood frames with wax small cell foundation. So I can't ascribe my successes to the frame style.





Nature Coast beek said:


> The biggest reason that I would think sticking with the 1.25" spacing would be,* in your case*, worth it would be to sell more nucs.


Now that is an interesting concept. Say I were to run a total of 100 boxes (not out of the realm of possibility with 25 hives), each box would typically have 10 frames meaning a total of 1000 frames in my operation. With 11 frames, I could fit 1100 frames in those same boxes. That would save me the cost of purchase and/or construction of approximately ten boxes which would be between $70 to $150. Since I order 210 frames at a time (to get the bulk rate), I would need 21 boxes normally to house those frames, or about 19 boxes with narrow frames. By shaving those frames, I am saving approximately $20 by not needing to build two more boxes. Also saving the time of building those boxes which is not insignificant.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> Say I were to run a total of 100 boxes (not out of the realm of possibility with 25 hives), each box would typically have 10 frames meaning a total of 1000 frames in my operation. With 11 frames, I could fit 1100 frames in those same boxes. That would save me the cost of purchase and/or construction of approximately ten boxes which would be between $70 to $150. Since I order 210 frames at a time (to get the bulk rate), I would need 21 boxes normally to house those frames, or about 19 boxes with narrow frames. By shaving those frames, I am saving approximately $20 by not needing to build two more boxes. Also saving the time of building those boxes which is not insignificant.


Not sure I agree with the thinking that you save, seems to me maybe its a loss, to get the same number of hives, you need 10% more material.
Most of us assume that space is valuable, I don't think it is. the brood chamber is surrounded by "insulation" I don't think that will change. we never get wall to wall brood. I run 8 frames in the bottom box, and no matter waht there is always about 2 frames of space around the cluster.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

odfrank said:


> Housel Positioning for example.....if they preach that can you believe all else they say?


I can't read this and not think that we should reject the LSD induced ramblings of a scientist...especially one that claims (in a non-LSD related episode) to have had a conversation at his mountain cabin with an alien...in the form of a green glowing raccoon.

Of course if we did this, we would be without PCR analysis....devised during an LSD trip by someone that claims to have talked to an alien disguised as a glowing green raccoon (without the help of drugs).

deknow


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

gmcharlie,

Perhaps it is a matter of location. Here, in my present location, two medium 8-frame supers (holding 9-frames each of 1-1/4" spacing), I regularly see wall-to-wall brood, though I don't remember seeing that in any other part of the country. Though this is the only time I've gone to using 1-1/4" spacing, or small cell/foundationless natural comb.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

gmcharlie said:


> Not sure I agree with the thinking that you save, seems to me maybe its a loss, to get the same number of hives, you need 10% more material.
> Most of us assume that space is valuable, I don't think it is. the brood chamber is surrounded by "insulation" I don't think that will change. we never get wall to wall brood. I run 8 frames in the bottom box, and no matter waht there is always about 2 frames of space around the cluster.


Perhaps something to take into account is difference in management. My focus is less on the number of hives but rather the efficiency of the hives, volume of brood, production of brood (not just honey), ability to build quickly, etc.

Perhaps an aspect to explore is wasted space, not for the same reasons we think but for things like Michael Bush talks about with honey comb being extended past the plane of the brood comb. I have observed that the narrow frames are very consistent with comb depth when they're fully drawn out and laid full of brood. Again I don't have enough data to make a comparison.

Other things aside, in "honey supers" I do still spread the frames out, 9 frames in a ten frame box for instance. But it seems lately that honey is not my primary crop, nucs are.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Solomon,

I too have discovered my niche to be producing queens and nucs. Having a touch of OCD makes it difficult to deal with honey - too sticky/messy.

I have not yet trimmed the End Bars of any of my PF frames, but I have, once, cut myself on their sharp edges, and am thinking that freshly trimmed edges might be even sharper. Though I have several pieces of equipment that could do the job of trimming each edge 1/16". A jointer and a router table with bits that could be used to set it up as a jointer. I have cut the centers out of PF frames and inserted them into wooden frames with narrow End Bars, with excellent success.

My standard nucs are 5-frame medium, though I also produce some that are 5-frame deep, and TB nucs that are 5-frame medium (I'm afraid to produce any deep TB nucs, those larger new combs would be more prone to damage in transit).


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

For me, honey is a one day a year thing, like a holiday or a proctological exam. 

Plastic frames are so much more useful for extracting. Spin them like a top, no blowouts.

I'm going to look at a jointer/planer this evening. With a reasonable investment, I should be able to trim a lot of frames with minimal effort and danger. The table saw makes me a little nervous trimming frames. And I could use it for other fun projects as well. I feel that the planer will also be more accurate. Every batch I do I always mess up at least one frame.

I haven't experienced the sharp edge thing.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I purchased a jointer/planer I found on Craigs List today. It works fantastically, way more efficient than the table saw and much less nerve wracking. I can do a frame in about 8.5 seconds. 210 frames makes that about half an hour's work. Not bad.

Of course the first thing I had to do was remove the safety thing.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

That's only partially a "safety thing". It's primary purpose is to push the stock against the fence. A jointer indexes from the perpendicular side (hence, the spring loaded pressure against the fence), a thickness planer indexes from the parallel side.

But yes, you have to remove that to do pf frames.

With my new table saw fence system, I'm finding it worth my while to run the edge through the jointer before ripping against the fence.

deknow


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I see.

It has a record too, it planed off a not insignificant portion of the previous owner's ring finger.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Solomon Parker said:


> I see.
> 
> It has a record too, it planed off a not insignificant portion of the previous owner's ring finger.


I saw what was left of the heel of a guys hand that got into a jointer when the small piece he was trying to plane broke. Grusome.

Please use safety push blocks for small stock:



Don


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

It came with a set of those, so it's good.

Fortunately, the frames are pretty well behaved and your fingers don't have to come too close anyway. Even with wooden frames it seems like it is a better idea to plane them after they've been assembled.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Yep, I trimmed the tip of my own right ring finger off into my jointer. The only power tool accident I've ever had. Turned the severed fingertip, bone and all into many very thin slices. Happened so fast, and the blades were razor sharp, I felt no pain at all. But my shop, then, was in an isolated area, and I was the only one around, and without a means of communication, so I had to hold the finger from bleeding with the same hand and drive using my left hand, to where my friend was, so she could then drive me to the hospital emergency room to get it stitched up.

What D Semple said, I should have been using those push blocks.


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