# Wanting to split



## Brad Bee

Jadeguppy said:


> I live on the upper Gulf Coast, about a five minute bike to the water. I know it is late in the year, but the weather has been good. I only have one hive and my spring split failed. Is it possible to do a successful split now? If so, is it best for a newbie to move a frame of eggs and brood with nurse bees to the new box? I see drone cells, but no queen cells. They superceded in the spring. I'd hate to lose the only hive I have before getting to split it.


I have a friend who lives in mobile who is also a beek. He told me that his bee brought in nectar and pollen all winter long last year. It was an unusually mild winter here in north AL so I don't know if it was abnormally warm there too or if it's normal to have pollen all year. 

Having said that, maybe someone in your area will respond, but my hunch is that if you provide them with a mated queen, you could make a split at this time of year. You can feed if needed. If you let them raise a queen you're looking at a month before she's laying and that's a critical month at this time of year.


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## Jadeguppy

I don't have a ready source for a mated queen. My current queen has lots of brood. She gave me a momentary panic as she moved into the med super, but lots of frames if brood, including some in the deep. I'm thinking I could also give the split some honey from the main hive. 
It was a mild winter here last year. I plan to leave honey on the hive for winter/spring as I think I prefer the concepts behind natural food when possible. I know they are bringing in pollen right now and it will stay hot for some time. Usually late October is the first chances for cool snap cold enough to break out a coat. Lately it has been later than that.

I've asked around here and can't get a sure answer. Do bees like oak trees and pine for pollen or nectar? I have fall and spring oaks.


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## Jadeguppy

P.s. Mobile is 1.5 hrs away and our climate is very similar, especially is your friend is in s. Mobile. If safe to sit there, I should be good.


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## Brad Bee

Yes, I saw your location was NW FL, which I knew was the panhandle. I would not recommend splitting without a mated queen, but that's just me. Unless someone from your area or real close replies that it is a good answer, I would hold off without the mated queen. I'm very familiar with your area, I have family in FWB. You run about 4 later than us on your first cold snap. 

No they don't use oak or pine pollen, they don't produce nectar, and those don't bloom in the fall.


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## Jadeguppy

Thanks Brad. The only local guy I know to sell starters focuses on nuks in the spring.

Small world. I'm in Navarre, just on the north side of hwy 98.

Too bad they don't use that pollen. Tons of it seasonally around here.


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## Hayden01

I'm from Dothan and there's a guy from the Bonifay area that was advertising queens on Craigslist. I don't know anything about him though. I may be able to get a couple names/numbers for you if you need them.


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## Hoot Owl Lane Bees

Make a split by moving the Queen to a nuc box with a frame or 2 of caped brood and the rest drawn frames.
The main hive should have some uncapped frames so they can start and feed a queen cell.
If it does not work out in the end recombine the Queen and nuc back in to the main hive.
The Queen less hive will get a brood break and may even bring in a lot more winter stores?


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## Arbol

I'd feed that hive and overwinter it, make it strong, do a texas split in the springtime. get 4 from 1, plus a honey crop to boot.


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## beepro

Only 2 more months to October. Then it is rainy Autumn time around Halloween here.
Yes, with favorable weather condition they will make a new mated queen when everything is going in
the right direction. When it is not then you will have a queen less hive to deal with. After one month + you
will have LWs to deal with a potential shake out. I try to get some new queens around August if possible. In
my little experiment having so many hives I can do what you want of making more nuc splits. It is only for an
experiment to see whether or not they can make a very late mated queen here. Because every year the weather
is different I'm taking a risky chance. With one hive, I would follow Brad's advice to get a mated queen for a late
split. Splitting in Sept. is consider late to me because 22--25 days will be another round of new bees. One thing for
certain, you will have to baby sit your little nuc hive on a split without a mated queen all winter long. Either that or do
a recombine that might kill off the old queen if they don't accept her. If me, I would not do it with only one hive left. I
would go buy more mated queens to make my splits. My advice is to count the number of cap broods and young nurse
bees you have in the big hive. Then decide how many nuc hives you can make to support the number of mated queens
you will need to buy. This is how I would do it in a mild winter area here.


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## Greeny

There have been several other posts recently related to similar questions. Many people have pointed out that mated queens are readily available from most of the major suppliers, and sometimes at a discount now.


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## DavidZ

don't do it. you will bee sorry.
A strong colony coming out over winter has a better chance of splits in spring than now.
being this is your first year do you really want to take a chance and loose your colonies.
seriously you are in Pensylvania. I lived in Perkasie, ie Bucks County and your weather is not
gonna last for a split now.


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## Jadeguppy

David, I'm in NW Florida.


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## Jadeguppy

Many good points made. I'm going to look into a mated queen, preferably tf. If I don't find one soon, I'll wait for spring.


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## stan.vick

I'm familiar with your area, grew up near there, my climate on the Ga. coast is about the same. My last splits without mated queens were a couple weeks ago, I'm not seeing many drones now and the bee math doesn't support making one without a mated queen, which I can't do because I have my own line of genetics, and have no queens banked. You could order one if you do it now, many queen producers stop selling them the first of September. Try Rossman in Moultrie, you might want to ride up there it's not far.


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## Jadeguppy

I've tried to research it, but can't find info. What is a Texas split 1-4?


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## Jadeguppy

S.v Rossman is four hours from here. 😢


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## Jadeguppy

Thanks for the Craigslist suggestion. I'm looking into a possible lead there.


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## Arbol

data on types of splits is very sketchy at best, there is no resource that list and describes the hundreds of different splits by name etc

but you need to buy the book "Increase essentials" for the texas split answer.

I have a incorrect way of thinking everyone reads everything the same as me, sorry bout that.


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## Hayden01

Did you make the split?


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## Jadeguppy

No. I decided to wait. I hope it makes it till I can split in spring.


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## Jadeguppy

I want to start prepping equipment. What do you think is the best way to get as many splits as possible while still getting some honey harvest?


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## beepro

Over here the best method I've found so far is to get a young mated Spring queen to
head the production colony before the flow is on. If you don't have a newly mated Spring queen then the very late mated summer queen or even an II queen will do. She's still a young queen coming out of winter. Then have 6 nuc hives as the supporting colony for the brood frames donation. Into this production hive, headed by a strong queen after evaluation, are many frame of bees from these nuc hives. There will be an explosion of bees inside the production hive and making you lots of honey on the flow. You have to know your flow to time everything right. Make sure to super up 2 at a time so that the brood nest will not be overfilled with nectar. That is why I like to make as many of these nuc hives as possible before going into winter. You should of seen their production rate coming out of winter early on next year. The strongest nuc hive can also be converted into a production colony also. So how many of these nuc hives do you have going into winter now?


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## johnmcda

https://atlanta.craigslist.org/eat/grd/d/honey-bee-queens-italian/6276738958.html

I have purchased several mated queens from Billy. Just installed one here in Atlanta. You should have success with a split and mated queen. I have a small apiary in Holt, FL - not far from you. Billy will mail the queen to you - takes a couple of days.


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## Jadeguppy

John, he still has some so I plan to order from him. He is a dealer for a bigger operation and got these bees from them.

Question... With one strong 10 frame, do you think it is safe to pull two five frame nucs from it, ending with three hives? Will that weaken them too much? I'd love to go into spring with three boxes.


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## JWPalmer

I would suggest it is not a matter of the number of frames, but of bee density. If all ten frames are covered, your chances of successfully pulling two frames for each nuc are pretty good. Also helps if the frames are full of capped brood. I just pulled two nucs with purchased queens off a double deep last week and all are doing well. The deep was wall to wall bees on every frame. Each nuc got two frames that were covered with capped brood, which is emerging now, and a frame shake of extra bees. I moved them several miles so there was no drift back of the foragers.


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## Jadeguppy

That is great news. The hive is packed. 1 deep, 3 mediums. Lots of brood in bottom two last I looked.
How much honey did u give them? How many empty frames?


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## JWPalmer

Third frame was mixed honey and pollen one side only. Two frames of foundation. 2:1 syrup in a top jar feeder from day one. The nuc I made three weeks ago is drawing comb with same setup but from a different hive. I don't know about these two yet. Tomorrow I am taking them each a second deep with foundation to work on amd refilling the feeders.


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## beepro

People don't know that a 5 frame nuc hive that survived the winter will go gang buster trying to 
expand like a first year hive. I just made 3 splits, 2 is a 5 framer and 1 is a 4 framer nucs. I also gave
them the high protein homemade subs and honey water. The early change to cooler weather is here. I saw
them packing in the yellow mustard pollen today. So with a mild winter weather we can still make nucs til very
late in the season. I've done some last year in mid-Oct. too. They still expanded this season giving me more bees and
a honey harvest. Don't forget to feed them too to make the big fat winter bees. Not too late to me. It can be done where you're at!


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## johnmcda

JWPalmer's advice is the same thing I would tell you. Make sure you feed, feed, feed! If it gets too cold for them to take syrup, make some fondant and feed that. Probably won't get that cold in Navarre.


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## Jadeguppy

I have a lot of extra honey on the main hive. I planned to give them that instead of pulling it. I'm not sure how the overwinter will go with just five frames. I'm wondering if they will need a second box of honey. I plan to make some nuc boxes this weekend.


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## beepro

Here is how I would do it. Make a shim to put some 1" sugar bricks on the top bars. This will help keep the
moisture away somewhat at the same time provide some to moisten the sugar bricks. If there is room you can
also put a patty sub with the sugar bricks. Then put the honey box on top of the sugar bricks shim. When they are
done with the sugar bricks they will move up the honey box to continue feeding. You can also put more sugar bricks on
top of the honey box too. This will ensure their food security throughout this winter. Make sure there are no mites in there
to affect the small patches of winter bees. The hive's survival during the winter time depends on these healthy big fat winter bees. At least over here in our mild winter environment that is how we feed them through the winter.



Patty subs on 5 frames:


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## johnmcda

Don't think this is a good idea for this area of the country. Small hive beetles are a major problem in Northwest FL.


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## JWPalmer

I just made my sugar brick feeding shims yesterday for my hives and nucs from some scrap 2x4 cut into 1-1/2 x 3/4 strips. I won't be putting pollen subs on until well into winter as SHBs are a real problem here too. Then again, winter here is only about 6 weeks of really cold (relatively speaking) weather.


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## Jadeguppy

I hope I don't need to feed sugar bricks. Shb is a concern here. I'll be putting de below the hives. I forgot to do it earlier in the year and my girls have been corraling a large number. There are multiple supers of honey that I can pull from. They have nearly refilled them.


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## Jadeguppy

Happy to say I found some scrap plywood and was able to cut the parts for two deep nucs. Hopefully the two queens will arrive Thursday. Tomorrow I'll glue and nail it together and Tuesday will be painting day. Thank you beesource for the plans!


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## Jadeguppy

I have two mated queens arriving this week. I'm wondering what the pros and cons are setting up a double queen hive or two nucs. My original plan was to have two nucs, but I'm wondering about a double.


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## JWPalmer

I think I would stay with plan A. Two nucs are easy to manage and just seems more natural to me. Honestly, I think it is too late in the season for experimentation. No time to fix a problem if one develops. The two nucs I made two weeks ago are really taking off. Good flow with pollen, syrup, and warm weather all contributing factors. With a little luck, yours will do well also.


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