# personal swarm advice anyone



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I just had my first swarm move in. I have never had bees yet. The swarm box is about a deep with only 5 to 8 medium foundationless frames in it and made out of chip board. I just watched the swarm move in. Where I want to keep hives is about 50 yards away. 

I need to know what to do to hopefully get the bees to a real hive body and hopefully not lose them. 

My two fears are that the bait hive being screwed to the tree may not hold up as it gets heavy. I found a differrent one today that the screws pulled out of the tree and it like this one had been there last year and this year also. 

Leaving them go with only 5/8 medium frames in a deep box might mean a cut out later when the bees build on the roof and below the frames.

I have no brood frames to use to try and hold the bees.

The trap has no ventalation if I cover the entrance hole.

I am wondering what my most sucsessful options might be?

I could add a couple more screws in the tree and leave them for awhile and move them next week. They are about 15 feet from a band saw mill that I am using a couple times a week right now.

I could also take the top off and add a couple more frames but they would still be medium frames.

I could dump them into a medium and move them 50 yards or nine miles and hope they stay.

I got bees now and though I have been reading the forum for two years, I still don't know how to handle it.

Since everything is screwed, will using a screw gun cause big problims?

Any advice?
Thanks
gww.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Oh No :ws:


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

tenbears


> Oh No :ws:


Ouch
gww


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

If you can find and cage the queen they won't be going anywhere.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Move the hive whenever and wherever you want that is a suitable place for a hive. Add the frames to fill the trap as soon as practical, and add the extra screws if you don't move the hive right away. After you move it put a leafy branch in front of the entrance to force the bees to fly around the branch so they will reorient. Wait three days to put the trap back up if the bees are within three miles of the original location. Move the bees from the trap to a hive in the daylight anytime that is convenient to you.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Ok
Thanks for the advice. I think I have decided to leave the trap for a week and then cut out the comb that isn't where it is supposed to be and then just move it to the stand or take it to dads nine miles away and leave it there for awhile. It should have some brood comb by then. Out of 16 traps only two didn't have 10 frames in it, go figure. They all are deeper then the medium frames though.

I did look for the queen as they were entering the box but did not see it. I am hoping not to lose these bees cause I only have one nuc coming this year and with this I will have two hives like I should have had if I wasn't so cheep. I helped make the spring nuc that I will get probly at the end of this month. The guy I made it with says it is still doing well.

I went and checked the trap that is just like this one but ten feet away and fingers crossed, believe it will hold up to the weight for another week. These are two traps that I made and just put out side my garage with the intention of eventually moving to somewhere good. I guess I will keep them where they are as so far it is the only place that ended up being some where good.

I guess I will see if the gaurd bees are doing their job over the next week when I use the saw mill.

The nuc I am getting is from a guy that is only about a mile away from me and I am wondering if it would be smart to have both hives at dads nine miles away for a couple of weeks or just do the branch thing and take my chances.

I was excited when I posted this thread and wanted to close them up and move them tonight but am coming down a bit and think that waiting might be best.

It is a little harder when you have no ideal of what you are doing and all your eggs are in one basket. I only have these bees and don't want to keep buying things if I can make what I have work but don't know enough to figure what might be best. I guess that now that I have decided on a path forward I will quit worrying and it will work or it won't.

Thanks for the advice. I would like to hear how many think it is a wasted effort to go to the trouble to move them 9 miles for a couple of weeks rather then just putting both the swarm and nuc on location at my house and using a branch to cover part of the entrance.

I have noticed that you can read and read and still not really know what to do when you really have to do it and not just think about doing it.

Thanks guys
gww


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

You are probably going to regret not putting the frames in.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

River
If I went out and just poured them in a medium box with frames and moved them tonight to where I want them 50 yards away would my risk be grater then taking the top off and filling the deep trap with medium frames? I can put medium frames in the trap right now but my lazy streak says getting them to the hive location would be easiest if the risk was not to much. I figure they are probly nicer to transfer now then doing a cut out later. I don't want to lose them if I can help it though. 

There are 4 empty hives, two lang and two long langs that are baited and that I know they checked out also before moving in to this one cause I watched them this morning. These four hives are set up for future bees. I had them set out with lemon grass oil "just in case" 

If I put them in a medium and left at the trap location till dark and then moved 50 yards and put a branch to make them fly around am I taking much more risk then just adding frames and leaving them for a week?

I thank you for your time and I am up for anything and home to do it today. That seems easiest long term cause then I only have to worry about strait comb. I know I am a dummy and that is why I ask. If I lose them at least I know now catching them is possible.

Your thoughts
Thanks
gww
ps Also if I transfer them should I have a smoker lit and smoke them or since they just arrived just shake them?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Ok, Change of plan. I put two drops of lemon grass oil on the bottom board and shook the bees into a medium box full of foundationless frames and crossed my finger. I still did not see the queen but most of the bees endded up in the box. A bunch had to walk in cause I found that hard shakes are not enough to disloge the bees. I now know why you bang a package on the ground first. There are still a lot of bees flying what seems like a figure eight and a few were at the trap site trying to enter a false knot hole. I did not see a lot of tail raising but most bees did go in the box eventually. They were festooning on the frames and I was able to get some in by transfering frames. They had built a very small bit of white wax on the roof already, so if I don't lose them in the end it is good that I moved them. They are about 5 feet away from the trap on the back of an atv which is as close as I could get to the trap due to wood being in the way. I will move them the 50 yards after dark, put a branch over the entrance and it will be what it will be. I have my fingers crossed. Thanks for the advice.
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Well it is not looking too good today. I moved the bees last night to about 50 yards away. I cut a cedar tree branch and stuck it in the ground right in front of the entrance. There are quite a few bees checking every nuc and cranny at the trap site but no ball of bees anywhere. They don't look real active and some are just landing and standing around but not together. The new site has almost no action. Every once in a while a bee will come out of the entrance and maby three or four are around on the outside of the box like robbers would be looking to get in. They were using the box and coming and going when it was sitting on the atv last night. I still have my fingers crossed that they are ok and would open the top and look but what would it matter if they are gone and I can't see bugging them too much if they are not. I am wondering if I handled this ok and this is just how things go or if it was a mistake not to have moved them 9 miles away or other mistakes? 
Cheers
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

As it got warmer there was more activity at the hive. The trap site was very active all day and I transferred over a cup of bees on the old trap that was open and lid and the bees rushed to the new hive. 

It is 2 hours from dark and finaly the old trap site has not that many bees hanging around. The bees at the hive are flying in in droves now so in the end, I think things worked out. 

I got another swarm today about seven miles from my house. My uncle called and said there were bees around the trap I put at his place. I went and looked and it was scout bees. I watched for about an hour and at exactly 2 PM the bees surrounded the trap and entered. I

am going to move them tonight and set another trap there. It has full ten frames in it though it also has a 3 inch shim on the bottom and not a normal bottom board. I have to drive to the bee guy to get one I left or make one or take a trap down. I made most of my traps with normal bottom boards and inner covers and regular tops. I did this so I could use them on hives if I got tired of trapping. 

Soooo, I will just leave the box size too long and adress it later. 

I wonder with foundationless frames when I should check next. I am thinking 7 days but have heard of swarms leaving if messed with too much. I don't want too much wonky comb. 

Does seven days seem right?

So far so good. 
Thanks
gww


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

gww said:


> I got bees now and though I have been reading the forum for two years, I still don't know how to handle it.


Welcome to the world of beekeeping. All that reading goes out the window when you pop the top on a hive.

I would see if I could find a local beekeeper and try to buy an open frame of brood. If you had just one frame of brood, your options would be much more wide open.

If you can't get a frame of brood, I'd leave them in the box for 4-5 days or until I saw pollen coming in. Once pollen is coming in, IMO they're gonna stay. That shouldn't take long. When you see that, move them to a new box, in a new location.

My other advice would be to modify your swarm traps so you won't have this problem again in the future.

EDIT: I just read your whole thread. About half the swarms I catch, have virgin queens in them. IMO, if you move one of them before the queen has mated, you stand a good chance of not having a laying queen in the hive. The way my luck runs, I would move it when the queen was out on a mating flight or she would fail to reorient to the new location and I'd lose her.

I have yet to ever catch a swarm in a trap. When I do, I will check for eggs before I move it.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Brad
I had a sesoned bee keeper show me a few things and that also went out the window when I opened the hive by myself. It is too late to leave them cause I just got home from moving them. I had thought I read somewhere that moving them when they first get in the box makes them reorient better. Just thinking I had read that doesn't make it so or make it true. 

I don't know about getting a brood comb but it they don't have laying worker around the first of next month, I should have a nuc with some small resources I can play with.

I haven't got a comment on how much time to give them before checking for wonky comb. I am not knowlagable on my bee timing. I believe during a swarm that the bred bee can lose four or five days of laying during swarming. If I check my hive in 7 days, which is my plan unless I get differrent advice, what stage of egg/larva would I expect to see if I have a laying queen? I am guessing I would see something in 15 days no matter what kind of queen I have if she doesn't get lost.

I am surprized that when I moved them and reopened the entrance that I saw nothing and heard nothing. I was woried about the light as I have read horror stories.

Im excited
gww


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Riverderwent said:


> Move the hive whenever and wherever you want that is a suitable place for a hive.


As long as it is after dusk so that all the bees are in (or on) the hive and the queen is not on a mating flight.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

River
I waited till dark to move both hives. Both had a single bee outside crawling around the intrance and no flying going on. Your original advice seem to be working though when I looked at the activity of the first moved hive at 7 am there was nothing but an hour later it got busyer and at 2 hours before dark there was a steady line of bees flying back to he hive and entering. I think it is going to work out fine. I wrote my second responce about waiting and you responded that not having full frames was going to bite me and so I reread your first responce and just moved them. I am intimidated at this point of not knowing normal from a mistake but so far so good. Thanks for the help.
gww


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

gww said:


> I am intimidated at this point of not knowing normal from a mistake but so far so good.


Welcome to the intersection of distance learning and beekeeping. By the way, the shim on the bottom of your trap should not cause any serious problems and will actually help a little with brood temperature control and ventilation. (What size is the entrance to your trap?)


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

river
One is probly 1 and 1/2 inch wide maby 2 inches By 3/8th inch. I believe it is the bigger of the swarms and is very active. 

The other is about the same though it has some issues. The shim has about 1/2 inch finger joints and it is spread in one corner with two fingers seperated. I taped them with duct tape but didn't notice a bee sized hole in my rabbit joint. They are not as active in the front and are mostly using that little bee sized hole. I have sliders that I can make the hole little but not much bigger. I had covered half of the opining with screen for some ventalation when I closed the entrance. I can eventually remove the one on the regular bottom. I looked in the top of the last swarm and it is covering the back corners of about 3 frames right where the bee sized entrance is. I thought about closing the front on both a little more but didn't think they had anything to rob yet and I am not feeding.

I am open to suggestions. 

I only peeked in the new hive because there was so little action at the front entrance and I had to unscrew the lid anyway. That is how I found the bee space entrance on the back corner. It is supposed to rain some for the next ten days per computer weather. I am sure my duct tape is not going to hold. I am thinking of just stuffing some window screen in the holes to replace the duct tape untill I remove the shim and put a bottom board on. 

When will I have brood and how long would it be smart to leave the shim on before replacing the shim with a bottom board?

Thanks
gww

Ps If I am typing and my fingers do something differrent then my brain told them to do, please forgive me.


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## pink bee man (Feb 24, 2015)

just remember bees go back to same spot if something is moved only move inch or 2 they r amazing and always go to same place u know were u r door is.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

gww said:


> When will I have brood and how long would it be smart to leave the shim on before replacing the shim with a bottom board?


You should have brood in a few days. You could probably take the shim off now without a problem, but I would leave it on for 10 days or so to allow the swarm to settle in before disturbing them.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

River
Last question. I was going to look inside in seven days due to fear of wonky comb. Am I correct in assuming by your answer, that I might be better just waiting 10 days and just adressing what I find at that time?


One hive is definatly more active then the other.

Thanks
gww


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

gww said:


> Am I correct in assuming by your answer, that I might be better just waiting 10 days and just adressing what I find at that time?


If there is a frame of drawn comb in the hive, then I would wait a little longer. If there's not, then I would check it this weekend. I would switch out the shim for a bottom board when you check it so you won't need to go back in the hive for awhile.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I like to move the trap imediately like the night of move in day, if I know for shure they moved in that day, they will orient for days so moving isn't an issue, disturbing them can be, so after about 3-4 days I figure that is enough time to check on them. At that point I move their frames to a hive body sat in it's place on the stand. So far knock on wood, I've never had a swarm leave doing it this way.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

river
There is a two inch piece of brood comb rubberbanded in one frame so no, no frame of old brood comb. I just have empty frames with the top bar cut in a "v" for a guide. Thank you for your responce.

Harley
Thanks also
I will go in this weekend and straiten out what needs straitened out. I will think or ask more after looking.

Thanks for the help
gww

Ps harley. I was watching the scout bees on both traps when the swarms showed up. That was pretty neat. I stood right under the box which was about head high looking for the queen as the entered just in case I might nab her. My first experiance. I wanted to move them the first day like I did cause I thought they might be nicer then after they have things to defend. Yes I am a bit of a chicken and even my head net and smoker are home made and I didn't have them when the swarm came Though I wore it when I transfered the first swarm to a new box. I am new as new can be.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I can't believe how active the first swarm is compared to the second one. I said earlier that the opening on it was about 2 inches but it is closer to 3 to 4 inches. There are so many bees around its entrance that I thought it looked like a robbing insident that I once saw but I don't see any leg tugging or fighting. 

I did notice today that there are a lot more bees around the trap site again today. They did not do this yesterday. I want to put the trap back up tommorrow which will be day 4 from the catch. Hoping for an after swarm. I also had opened the trap that was ten feet away on another tree and left it open. Even with the hive open a small amount of bees stayed clustered on the two inch peice of brood comb that was rubberbanded in one of the frames. I decide to move the comb and took it down to the hive entrance and I thought the hive was going to swarm because so many bees came out of the hive and were just flying around. The sun came out and it is pretty hot at ecactly the same time and the hive is in full sun so I don't know for sure what caused what.

I am thinking the bees on the comb were starting to starve to death because one cell has a bee butt sticking out of it. I also noticed some differrent sized bees. A few were so small they almost looked sweat bee size. I also thought on one that the wings might be differrent sized. Am I correct that with a swarm you get a brood break and mites won't be a current issue?

I am hoping the activity is down by the trap site tommorrow and I can put both traps back in service. I was able to put 11 frames in the trap the swarm was caught in but I am going to have to live with 5 frames in the other due to how I built it. I will move the peice of comb (only one I have left) to the full frame trap. 

I don't know when things are good or bad but it is interresting trying to figure it out.
Thanks
gww


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## nwbell469 (Aug 6, 2015)

I caught my first swarm Sunday, late the evening I took a ten frame hive with frames and foundation and dumped them in. My trap had no frames in it. I figured it be less stress on the bees to go ahead and move them than to wait n cut them out. Moved them maybe 200 yards to my house, the next morning I give them a entrance feeder with sugar water, took the trap back and hung it in the same place. The swarm stayed at the new hive, and the bees that where at the trap went in that morning. I was going to gather them and move it but something told me to leave them. I think a after swarm has now moved in with remaining bees, haven't checked but will to day.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

nw
My stragglers looked like an after swarm yesterday cause some were foraging. Some were aslo acting like scout bees and were going to both traps. I know they stayed the night. This morning nothing there though it is cooler out side. I had some staying in an open box but it was only a very small amount. I don't know what is going on but believe it is just a few bees that liked the original spot. I would love an after swarm or any kind of swarm as I am just getting started. I hope you have more bees in yours but without taking the top off believe it will really be hard to tell for sure. 

Good luck and keep us imformed cause it is interesting when you are just learning.
Cheers
gww


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

gww said:


> I have never had bees yet. . . . . Out of 16 traps . . .


 That's a heck of a way to get started! Congrats on the captures. Bring your camera and take some photos on your next inspection.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Iamthewater....
To late for the camera. I went in today cause it was sunny and 80 degrees. My plan was for tommorrow but it was only supposed to be 65 degrees. Even though the computer weather said it was supposed to be sunny tommorrow, I was afraid it might be cloudy.

My camera sucks and if I don't charge the batteries the night before it will not work and if I do charge them I have to take fast pictures and only get a few and it quits. I also am not used to bees enough to handle frames and try to get pictures yet. 

After looking I believe both swarms are small. This is day five the smallest one has been in the box and day 6 for the bigger one.

Both hives were building in the back corners of the hives. One back left and one back right. Both were working hard on the same number of frames, about four.
The bigger swarm had about double the wax built. The big one had about one third of 2 of the frames from top to bottom, and two a bit lesser built.

I made some moves that I welcome comments on.

I did not look for eggs larva or honey but mostly just the form of the comb. I did look for the queen while looking at comb but did not consintrate and did not see one in either hive. The small one didn't have a lot of comb but it seemed the bees were festuning fairly strait. I moved everything they were working on more to the middle and put two empty frames on the edge of the hive. Wrong move?

The big one had built a large comb off the comb that was two frames in and into what would be considered frame 9 if looking from the entrance. I hope it was honey and not brood cause I broke it off. One side of the frame the funky comb was in was strait and the other side closest to the wall of the hive was funky even after I broke it off. Soooo, I put it all the way against the wall with the strait side facing the bees and put an empty frame between it and the next comb which looked strait. I put the comb I had broken off on top of the top cover and put a medium box on top of that and the telescope cover on that. The peice of comb I broke of is about 3 to 4 inches long and 2 to 3 inches wide. I did see some honey sticking the bees to my glove when I did this and so think/hope it was honey. I am guessing I will go down in an hour or two and hope they have the comb robbed out. I don't like the extra space on the hive but was afraid of causing robbing if I just left the comb out on the ground. Wrong moves?

I have never had a package and so have no referance for the size of my swarms compared to a 3 lbs package but believe niether is very big. I put the amount of comb that had been drawn in 5/6 days incase those with experiance might be able to judge. Even when thinking softball/football terms I have a hard time even when seeing them. I hope they have a chance. 

I hope I haven't set them too far back with my moves or lost a queen when putting a bottom board on the small one but guess it will be what it will be.

I welcome any comments even if the comment says I am an idiot and my bees don't have a chance.

Thanks
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I inspected the hives again today. The small one hasn't made a lot of progress and the bigger one has made a bit more progress. There are so many bees in such small areas of comb where they are buiding that it is hard for the untrained eye to see what is there. I tought both would have capped brood. I didn't really see any in the small hive and I also thought the bees in the small hive might have been a little more curious about me then the big one was. Maby it had a virgin queen? It definatly only has about half the foragers compared to the bigger one.

The bigger one had something capped that I am assuming was brood and some of its comb was heavy for only being about 1/3 or less of the frame being built. I am at about day 13 on the small hive and 14 on the bigger.

The only thing I could tell for sure is that the comb all seems to be strait so far.

I probly should feed the small one but believe I will let it ride and hope for the best. I was going to wait till about the 28th to look but the weather looked like they had a 90 degree day coming and I thought 72 degrees might be more pleasent and less chance of losing good comb. The bigger one was so active that I was afraid they might build faster then they had before. It turns out that they are keeping about the same pace.

I did not see a queen in either hive and didn't blow the bees out of the way looking for eggs/larva.

I am guessing things are ok and guess I will know more next time I look.

Anything about what is writen above stick out?
Thanks
gww


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

gww said:


> It is a little harder when you have no ideal of what you are doing and all your eggs are in one basket. I only have these bees and don't want to keep buying things if I can make what I have work but don't know enough to figure what might be best. I guess that now that I have decided on a path forward I will quit worrying and it will work or it won't.
> 
> 
> I have noticed that you can read and read and still not really know what to do when you really have to do it and not just think about doing it.
> ...


I have often felt like this. But once I've done it, the reading makes more sense to me. For me, this works. Decide on a path, take it. Right or wrong, review what you saw, and re read. My reading comprehension is much better when I'm relating it to something real, not hypothetical.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

bdfarmer


> My reading comprehension is much better when I'm relating it to something real, not hypothetical.


Me too, sometimes.
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I am getting my hive/nuc today. It is actually in two 10 frame medium boxes. It looks pretty full of bees and though we didn't go through it all I seen a couple of good frames of capped brood. The guy selling was a little worried about putting a more established hive right next to my weak swarms. He had another one ready for $200 that I almost took but have decided to just ride it out with what I have. He really didn't want to but I got him to come and look at my two swarms. He is strictly a foundation guy. Even though I am wearing out my welcome getting in the hives just last saterday, I wanted his opinion on wether I might should just combine the larger swarm with the smaller swarm. 

With his eye, we did find the queen in the small hive but no capped brood. She must have been a vergin when I got her cause the other one has capped brood in it that I am almost sure wasn't there just this saterday. We decided that I might survive with out robbing for a short period as long as I don't start feeding. The smaller swarm would probly bennefit from some sugar water but I think I am going to let it ride. He thought maby stealing one of the quarter frames of brood from the bigger swarm might really give the smaller one a boost. I will think on it. He is conveinced that I will need to add another medium to the hive I am getting from him with in the next two weeks. I am guessing that I need to start some frame manipulation between now and then so I have some frames to move up. I now have the two lower boxes of frames with foundation to work with. I am guessing what was discussed earlier in this thread will come in handy. 

Mostly I just wanted to fix my last post and say that both swarms do have a queen. I am learning a little bit.

The bee guy almost lost a third a frame of brood due to not being used to foundationless. 

He does not like my oak boxes and says keep lots of duct tape handy.

I hope the bad weather that is forcast stops a bit of drift of foragers as he only lives about a mile away from me.

I had a bunch more writen but lost my connection and lost half of my typed content and don't have the will power to try and replace it right now.
Cheers
gww


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