# Senate Bill 510 - beekeeper thoughts?



## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

The first sentence is probably a lie.


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

More unecessary regulation designed to put small guys out of business. 
think about it, they write these regs with large corps in mind. They have the funds to implement these regs, small guy doesn't. 

Its dang near impossible for a farmer who produces milk, eggs, meat ect to even survive under these regs.

For example, i can sell milk, off of my farm but i can't advertize or deliver. i can't sell cheese that i make from my milk unless i have a dedicated cheese processing building. I can't sell yogurt, or anything other than milk itself. 

as for eggs, its getting harder and harder to sell them. Most of us farmers have to sell them as hatching eggs in order to get around all the regs.

Try meat. I can grow it, sell it, but i cannot butcher or kill. IF i make jerky, i can't sell it. 

I'm still unable to find out the requirements on me selling honey in kansas.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

MJC417 said:


> The first sentence is probably a lie.


Which first sentence. will you please quote it so we know which one you are writing about?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

_The following summary was written by the Congressional Research Service, a well-respected nonpartisan arm of the Library of Congress. GovTrack did not write and has no control over these summaries._


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

hpm08161947 said:


> _The following summary was written by the Congressional Research Service, a well-respected nonpartisan arm of the Library of Congress. GovTrack did not write and has no control over these summaries._


This Thread has a good chance of turning Tailgaterish. But I'm gonna ask anyway. Which part of the first sentence is a lie?

And what about the rest of the bill? Good thing? Bad thing? Won't effect me? What?

I, for one, have a hard time wading through this sort of thing. And even when I do read even a section, I really don't know what it means in relation to me.

Maybe someone would take a section and tell me what it means or should mean to me.


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## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

Mark, I'll take a stab at it. I'm guessing "well respected".


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Okay, but isn't that a subjective statement and therefore opinion? And therefore incapable of being a lie, unless the author him/herself didn't mean it? I don't understand.

What about what the OP was about though?


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

I was going section by section. It got to be to much. Almost as bad as reading the original.
So I sum it up.

HHS (working with just about every other government org., including homeland security) will set rules and guidelines for processing, holding, transporting and importing of foods. HHS will also try to do more inspections of imports. HHS will setup some way to track foods. HHS will be able to give money to local goverment and indian tribes to comply and setup the stuff they need to obey these laws. Money will be given to research this stuff.

Processors, holders, importers, etc. will be required to setup their own rules (guided by the HHS) and then keep records on it all. HHS has the right to examine these records.


Schools will be given guidelines on controling food allergies (claim right now it is voluntary). If voluntray - parents are obligated to provide info on their kids food allergies. I believe more money is given.

It keeps going but it is all about tracking foods and making laws on how they can be handled and processed. A lot of it is dealing with in the US. Some then deals with imports. Interestingly HHS is given the right to setup FDA offices in other countries to help them safely import foods into the US.

Labs are organized, etc..

HHS can ask the processor for recalls, then demand it, then just do it (but the processor can have a hearing if they want).

A lot of stuf 

Then near the end it says...


> ...nothing in this Act shall be construed in a manner inconsistent with the agreement establishing the World Trade Organization or any other treaty or international agreement to which the United States is a party.


What did you expect? To understand what they want?
When it comes to bills it isn't so much what it says but what it can mean.

Mike
Section 404 - 
Declares that nothing in this Act shall be construed in a manner inconsistent with the agreement establishing the World Trade Organization or any other treaty or international agreement to which the United States is a party.


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## Klaus (Apr 24, 2008)

Hello I'm from the government, I here to help you.....sure I believe that!
:ws AGAIN!
Why can't these clowns just leave us alone. Enough of this.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

MikeJ said:


> What did you expect? To understand what they want?
> When it comes to bills it isn't so much what it says but what it can mean.
> 
> Mike


Mike,
My most senseer gratitude for that synopsis. Thanks. Your a pal.

 Can I send you some tylenol?


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Is there anythng specifically bad about this bill? I understand that some have a general distrust of the government and some out-right hate it. But how will this bill directly affect me when I go to sell honey? Specifics, please. 

"Why can't these clowns just leave us alone" tells me exactly nothing.

If the bill prevents criminals from deliberately shipping salmonella-tainted peanut butter to kill and sicken children, perhaps there is some merit to what "these clowns" are proposing.

Wayne


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Well some of the honey houses I've seen we could use a little oversight.

One guy around here extracts outside, in the dust and all, yet can put his product under loan. Same individual contaminated honey with a mite treatment, rejected in Hillsboro, returned to producer, then subsequently sold to a different packer.


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

in general honey is considered a farm product and governed by the USDA not FDA. 

when a honey house starts being used for processing creamed or cooked honey or purchased honey is brought into the mix then you are moving into the FDA area. 

right now these bills are proposals and a final version has not been approved. 

clearly we have a problem with food safety so that's the role of our government to implement regulations to protect the citizens.


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

Ive found that if you produce something that isn't safe or is tainted, the market will do more than the fda can. the market will put you out of business along with lawsuits taking everything else.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

waynesgarden said:


> Is there anythng specifically bad about this bill?
> ...
> If the bill prevents criminals from deliberately shipping salmonella-tainted peanut butter to kill and sicken children, perhaps there is some merit to what "these clowns" are proposing.


Last first -
It is already against the law to knowingly sell tainted products. Read it and for each section (that deals with actual laws to protect) think if it is already in place or not.

First - This is not FDA. This is Health and Human Services. They will use FDA, homeland security, and all the other govr. offices. The bill talks of licensing fees and it is not talking about local fees. HHS is said to be the one collecting these fees and fines. So if you are licensed by the state this bill could mean federal licensing.

HHS is to set regulations to govern handling, processing, transporting, importing, etc. for each category of food. They can (by the bill's language) close any processor they feel (bill says something about HHS believes a processor has a good possible chance of causing tainted product) the processing is not good enough.
Processors will be required to use the regulations and guidelines to create handling and process rules for their business (in writing) and then keep records of how this is implemented and records on the functioning. HHS will be able to examine these records at any time.

I think the biggest thing here (I do not know how much federal is currently involved) is that it appears the federal government will be handling licensing, fines and such. I do not know if this is in addition to local licensing or if it only governs interstate processors.

Like I said - A bill make look like it says one thing but you should try to look it overall. What CAN it mean? Remember controversies over does "shall" mean must or may?
I do not hate the government (that is a sin - God says to submit to the powers. He will require it of their hand.) but I also do not trust them. Have they proven themselves trustworthy?

Mike


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

wolfpenfarm said:


> Ive found that if you produce something that isn't safe or is tainted, the market will do more than the fda can. the market will put you out of business along with lawsuits taking everything else.


Absolutely right!!!! But we always need more GOV....just because they say we do!!


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

waynesgarden said:


> Americans deserve to know their food is safe to consume more than some slovenly beek deserves to have government stay out of their business.


Quite frankly i haven't ever heard of anyone hurt by honey. 




> By the way, what in the bill, specifically, is unnecessary and "designed to put small guys out of business?"
> 
> (BTW, as long as we're completely off topic here, nice to hear from you again. I was Adirondackgardener on the Mother Earth News Forums.)
> 
> Wayne


Hey wayne, 
I gave a good example in dairy industry, but lets say you want to produce some honey, this bill i see where you'll end up having to build a govt designed honey house to extract and bottle. Next come pasturization whether you want to or not, so more expense and loss of revenue from the folks that want raw. By the time they get it all implented unless your big enough to comply with all the regs and costs, you go out of business. 

for a good example, lets say i want to sell milk from my goats and my cows. In order to comply with govt regs, i have to spend at least 100k on a milking parlor to comply with govt regs. then you gotta get certified, then you can sell bulk. IF you wish to bottle it, then you got another 100k min in equipment and a separate facility to bottle it in. 

Apply that to honey. No one will be big enough to comply.


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Would you say that we are discussing a Political or Societal Issue here?


Personally the bill IMO is designed to benefit large scale producers. Regulation is not the answer. The govt can't even manage the food inspections it already has to do. If they were doing it, there wouldn't be any ecoli recalls. 

As far as honey processing, its a nobrainer on it. Its simple to keep your equipment clean. I am building a block building in preparation of harvesting in a couple years. i choose block cause i can pressure wash it when needed. Stainless sink running water. 

extract clean then bottle. quite easy process. If govt gets involved, i'll end up having to put in sprinkler system, restroom, and God only knows what else to comply.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Having not read the bill, only the kingly presented synopsis, I may have an ill formed opinion:

It seams that the domestic honey business is for the most part trouble free. Like mentioned by others, fear of lawsuits tends to keep MOST everyone on the strait and narrow.It seems like this bill is preaching to the choir. Any effort spent on further legislating a group that is basically law abiding is a waste of time

The same cannot be said of foreign honey (and "funny honey") producers. . Their effort would be much better spent down on the docks, tesating incoming honey(?), and stopping the flow of known tainted products. Heck. I bet they could pay for themselves with the collection of tariffs on transshipped honey(?) .

Roland


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## themrbee (Oct 20, 2006)

[QUOTEI'm still waiting to hear how this bill will negatively affect me when I sell honey][/QUOTE]

Well I had to get an anitbioterrorist # from FDA so i could sell to dutch gold. Now that I have my # The FDA will be Helping me to produce safe honey


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

This, you feel, is a positive or negative thing?


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## themrbee (Oct 20, 2006)

I dont think its Positive. I can hardly wait till they start telling me what i have to do next


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

themrbee said:


> Well I had to get an anitbioterrorist # from FDA so i could sell to dutch gold.


Did Dutch Gold tell you that you needed that number? Or who?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Did Dutch Gold tell you that you needed that number? Or who? I have a friend whosells 40 barrels ata whack to McLure's, a subsidiary of Dutch Gold, and I never heard that he had to get a number. I'm going to ask him. Do you produce alot of honey? At what amount of production or of sales to a packer does one fall under this qualification?
> 
> Thanks


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

Its a horrible bill that everyone should take a few minutes to send a letter to their reps and sens to oppose

BUT....has anyone bothered to look at the date of last action?

The bill is likely dead in the water....but lets not forget that while the Federal Gov has a very important job to do....THIS ISN'T PART OF IT.

This kind of bill is the result of Big Gov that reaches beyond the power/auth granted to it.

If we continue to go down the path we're on we will eradicate all small businesses due to rediculous regulations that are expensive, of little value and are impossible to comply with.

Again...its a perfect example of a Solution in search of a Problem


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## themrbee (Oct 20, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Did Dutch Gold tell you that you needed that number? Or who?


Thats what i said Mark. why dont you call Gordie and ask him!


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## Elwood (Apr 8, 2009)

My eyes glazed over pretty quick but I did catch one thing. It exempts farms and restaurants. Aren't we farmers? We manage, transport and care for livestock that forage on open range. We harvest the crop in our honey houses, that comes from the land. It feels a lot like farming to me!


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I've been in the business for 30+ years and anytime the goverment get into my business it cost me big money. There is a lot that we can not control, so bee it. We are an industry that has for the most part taken what we can and give everything just to stay in business. The big packer have always shown that they will do whatever they want. I'm just glad I'm not paying .01 a lb for them to do so now.:applause:


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## themrbee (Oct 20, 2006)

> At what amount of production or of sales to a packer does one fall under this qualification


Its part of the patriot act and all food processing facilities must have one. I guess you missed that one at the espha meeting several years ago. and guess what if you extract you have a food processing facilities. Im talking tons not 100 lbs


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

themrbee said:


> Its part of the patriot act and all food processing facilities must have one. 100 lbs


Are you sure its part of the patriot act or is it bioterrorism act of 2002. I Don't think patriot act is involved. The bioterrorism act of 2002 requires you to get a id if you sell to anyone but the end consumer. I.E. sell honey on the side of the road or off your farm, your ok. Sell to a store, or packer you have to give them a means to trace the honey back to you.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

Roland said:


> Having not read the bill, only the kingly presented synopsis...


Very sorry. I had no intention of it coming across that way. Someone asked for someone to sum it up.


Mike


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

themrbee said:


> Thats what i said Mark. why dont you call Gordie and ask him!


Thank you for reaffirming that what i thought you had said was what you meant. I wasn't sure.

Nah, I'm not going to call Gordie, because I'm not going to sell any honey to Gamber. I need all that I produce. And I don't need to call him to verify what you wrote. I have no reason to mistrust you. I was just asking for clarification.

Where is Appleton? I don't find it in my Atlas.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Elwood said:


> My eyes glazed over pretty quick but I did catch one thing. It exempts farms and restaurants. Aren't we farmers? We manage, transport and care for livestock that forage on open range. We harvest the crop in our honey houses, that comes from the land. It feels a lot like farming to me!



Yup, Farmers. My Mom agreed when I asked her the same question. She grew up on a farm in Iowa.

Then again, maybe we are Cowboys or Ranchers, by the way you describe what we do.

I like that, Mark Bee, Bee Rancher. Yee haw!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

MikeJ said:


> Very sorry. I had no intention of it coming across that way. Someone asked for someone to sum it up.
> Mike


He must have been writing about the link in the original post, Mike. You did us all a favor. Your a Prince for doing so.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

Elwood said:


> ...It exempts farms and restaurants...


That confused me. It says that but then later on talk os regulation of handling produce. Maybe they mean once it is off the famr but it didnt strike me that way as I read it.

Also it said there was a 'delay" for small businesses.

Mike


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## themrbee (Oct 20, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Where is Appleton? I don't find it in my Atlas.


Niagara county


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanx


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

MikeJ - my deepest apologies. That was to be "kindly" not "kingly" No offense intended. I thank you for your synopsis. 

Roland


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

Roland said:


> ..."kindly" not "kingly" No offense intended...


No problem - just didn't want you to think I did it with an arrogant attitude. I have never really had trouble with people thinking I was kingly 

Mike


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