# Parker Farms January 2014 Update



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

It's 35 degrees right now and I was heading home from a meeting and decided to stop and check on my north yard. I set up this yard about a year and a half ago and it has gone through two winters. Only last summer did I discover that it is actually within spitting distance of a commercial (ish) queen mill. 

I like to do quick checks on hives when the weather is cold. I can look down in the hive and see how much honey is left and the size of the cluster. It's cold so the bees don't fly out and the propolis is brittle so it breaks loose pretty easily.

Turns out, four of the six hives at that location are dead. The other two have very small clusters and I expect them to be dead in the next month.

I'm not disappointed and I'll tell you why. First, due to what I expect is influence from queen mill down the street, these bees were mean. I visited the queen mill last summer and his bees are mean. My bees are not mean generally speaking and I breed against meanness. I replaced most of these queens last summer due to meanness and poor performance. Second, it was a bad location for the reasons above. The hives didn't make much honey due to over saturation of the area and they were no fun to work. Third, I'm in the process of moving and don't need a pile of hives to take with me. Fourth, as I did not feed at all this past fall, the process of losing hives not adequately prepared for winter is actually a positive. It is selection for hives which store a lot of honey and which are frugal with it.

I've also lost two more hives at my home yard which I am slightly bummed about. One of them was an old queen I purchased from Zia several years back, and the other was my oldest hive, one continuously alive since I purchased it, 11 years ago. So it lasted about 10.5 years, totally treatment free. It was however susceptible to robbing which is not very helpful, so there's a positive to that as well. A major portion of my current hives are descended from that hive, so life goes on.

So that's six down out of 25, a 24% loss. I expect I'll lose a couple more including the remaining two at the north yard. If I get down to 18, I can fit them all on my truck and trailer and move them all at once.

As some of you already know, I am not able to raise queens and nucs this year. As I said, I am in the process of moving and all my queen rearing equipment is in storage. Any makeup splits I need to make will be with walkaway splits, with the goal of covering equipment and maintaining no more than 18 hives for the time being. No honey production this year either, that's all in storage too.


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I know its probably too early to diagnose your losses, but do you have expectations as to what may have caused their demise? It's been a rough winter weatherwise for me up here, my losses are going to be very large, as I expect others will be also in the east half of the country.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

From the quick check I did, most if not all at the north yard were obviously starvation, moderate clusters, no honey, and no evidence of theft. 

However, the two at the home yard were different. They have been being robbed for weeks whenever there is a warm day. The Zia queen hive still has a dead intact cluster, but evidence of robbing which might lead me to believe that they couldn't handle the cold or got stuck on brood, I haven't done a thorough investigation yet. The other one has remnants of a cluster and still a good portion of its honey, and with other evidence I've seen, I believe they have been robbed out by bees searching for its neighbor, the Zia hive, but some honey still remains due to weather timing. This hive has often been the recipient of robbing in tough times: http://youtu.be/uLlbuwJUg2U


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Sorry for your losses. Even when expected, it's not easy to lose hives.

Rusty


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'm not really bothered by it any more. However, I did lose some pretty significant bragging rights, the ability to say that I have a treatment-free hive that's 11 years old, never artificially requeened. That one's always fun to wave under the naysayer's nose when he says it can't be done, as he does pretty regularly.

I don't know how old the rest of my hives are. Oh well, I still have the "100% treatment-free for 11 years" to wave around.


----------



## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

It looks like this is working for you at this point as sad as it is. I am not sure whether to say congratulations on your losses or I am sorry for your losses. I guess it is both.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Where are you going is it a similar type area? Will be interesting to see if the treatment free characteristics will work just as well in the new place.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Where r u going to Solomon?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'm moving to the Denver area Mark.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Wow. That seems like quite a move. Job transfer? Gonna make some Mile High Honey? One of my wife's nephews lives near Denver and works Air Traffic Control. He brews his own beer too. Apparently a not uncommon thing around Denver. There are a number of Brew Clubs around Denver according to Mitchell. Safe travels.


----------



## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Solomon Parker said:


> I'm moving to the Denver area


As in Denver CO?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Yes, that's the Denver. Change of place, change of pace.

I enjoy brewing a bit myself. My favorite is cider with some honey. I have a few friends who also brew who are coming along.


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Good luck with the move. It will be interesting to see how your bees adapt to the different climate.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

This winter is the harshest they've had, and no feeding, so it will probably weed out a few.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Denver is tough on bees. But you will find a few good barbeque places in the area, so you have that going for you!


----------



## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Actually Denver isn't too bad. Always remember Solomon, Prairie Wind Bee Supply is just 2 hours north of Denver!


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

best of luck with your move solomon, thanks for keeping us posted. i'm at about 10% winter loss so far but i've got a couple nucs that are iffy, will probably end up at about 20% before it's over. harsh winter alright.


----------



## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Oh well, no more Big Bee Buzzes for you. I go to Denver for work sometimes, and I'll try to let you know when I'm there.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I might still come. I really like them, especially if I were to be provided dinner. Speaking of which, what's the date for this year? I'd love to come again.

You would of course be welcome to stay at my place if you wanted to.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I love the front range in general, have even considered retiring somewhere like Colorado Springs or Ft. Collins. Its going to present a whole new set of beekeeping challenges, flows and weather in general are so unpredictable out on the flatlands. A mountain valley with elevations not too high might be your best bet. Best of luck. Ok all this talk about brewing, yes some awesome beer out there for sure but is no one going to mention the "elephant in the room"? You know........the new meaning of Rocky Mountain highs? The times they are a changing.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> no more Big Bee Buzzes for you


That depends on exactly what you mean by a 'BUZZ' now doesn't it?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Well, I guess I'm the only one whose mind didn't go straight to drugs.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Solomon, I'm sorry to hear about your losses, but in at least one way it's not a complete disaster. It may actually help with some of the skeptics. That you have reported those losses should make it even more apparent that you have also been reporting your successes honestly. 

I think you'll enjoy Denver. I lived there for a while in my misspent youth and had a lot of fun. There are a lot of open-minded people there, and they make life interesting.


----------



## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

Solomon, Good luck on your move to the great state of Colorado. Once you're up and running we can compare and contrast the difference in eastern and western Colorado bee keeping. As Jim said there are many challenges to overcome here but it can be done. Keep us posted.


----------



## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Sol, the Buzz is the last weekend in March, which reminds me that I need to get that posted. Your obviously welcome to stay with us.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I had bees in Brighton but also in Laramie. Laramie is 7,200 feet. We used to laugh at the "mile high city". We were one and a third miles... the two toughest things in Laramie were the relentless wind and we'd get a couple of weeks of -40 F. Denver is much warmer and less windy... which is not saying it's warm and windless.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Solomon Parker said:


> I have a few friends who also brew who are coming along.


And your wife? Takes me back to the 60's. Some sort of communal living by chance?


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Now we know that Barry is an ex-hippie in disguise. Talk about a wolf in sheep's clothing!


----------



## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Solomon, nice to hear that you are moving to our neck of the woods. Hive lost happens, yet it is still unsettling, especially a hive like this. Hope we get to meet and pick brains. Safe travels to the Mile High,,
Jim, it is legal to have elephants in Denver , but I am certain, this had nothing to do with the move :scratch:


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Sticky Bear said:


> Once you're up and running we can compare and contrast the difference in eastern and western Colorado bee keeping.





fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> Hope we get to meet and pick brains.


I'm looking forward to it. Right now I need to find a location to keep them. We're going to have to rent for a few years and there are several counties which don't allow bees at all. Inside city limits, most cities allow a maximum of two (dependent upon lot size). Haven't yet decided exactly where to live. It's a big area, far bigger than I am used to. I have never lived in or near a city larger than 75,000 people.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Boulder might be worth a look if big cities aren't your thing. We lived in Brighton and we called Boulder "2 square miles surrounded by reality". It is a real different place. I could see that Mork (of Mork and Mindy) would fit right in... I was used to Denver traffic where they will run over you and cut you off just as a matter of principle, and will flip you the bird as they pass you like you are standing still because you are only doing 70 mph in a 40 mph construction zone... and I'm in Boulder pulling out of an alley. There is only one car as far as I can see in any direction. That car stops at the alley and motions for me to pull out. Only in Boulder...


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I hadn't heard that one, the one I heard was "People's Republic of..." That is my goal, but my research has shown that a few miles out of town equals far lower prices and vast improvements in the distance between houses. I'm not a city person.

Update: I went out and collected some of the equipment from the dead hives in my home yard. I was correct with my earlier assessment. Both dead hives had gotten stuck on brood during a cold spell and starved. What has often given them a jump on the season in the past was their undoing this time 'round. The Zia hive looks like it died back in December in our first freeze, and the other one looks like it died during our most recent cold spell.

The rest of the hives I checked had honey, but one was clustered on empty plastic frames. I ended up feeding it some sugar because I want medium frame hives alive for the future. I can requeen it later.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Over the past week, I've done about a 90% word by word update of my website including adding a new post-mortem examination page. Check it out some time.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

After checking into the aforementioned dead hives, I discovered some very interesting things. Firstly, most of them didn't starve, at least not in the no-honey-in-the-hive sense. All but one had honey, and several didn't have brood.

Check it out in cases 2-6. http://parkerfarms.biz/postmortem.html


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Pretty pitiful clusters, don't you think?


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Those pics look a lot like tracheal mite collapse. Any chance you could do an examination on some of them and see if they were infested?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Pitiful clusters yes, but they are _dead_. 

If I were interested in checking for tracheal mites, it's too late. The whole affair has already been packed up and stored.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Were they alive they would be pitifully small clusters destined to die. Don't you think?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Good question, I'd have to let them try to find out.


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I agree with Fusion on the diagnosis of Tracheal mites. You see this really rapid late fall-winter depopulation with hundreds of crawlers moving away from the hive with k-wings, not DWV.

My feral TF experimentals get Tracheal mites in waves periodically. The conventional wisdom says Tracheal mites are becoming rare due to resistance developed in commercial breeding. I wonder if wild/feral bees are a reservoir for non-resistant types. 

Tracheal builds up in apiaries (due to drift I suppose). Good reason to keep individual groupings small --- so you disperse the risk.

The feral bees don't develop resistance because they are already dispersed widely, and are relatively "naive" for the pest.
One might want to import known tracheal resistant queens to mix with the locals, and brew one's own resistant strain.

Worth having a scope around to verify the internal mites.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JW, have you had bees disected to actually determine Tracheal mite presence?

Solomon, those bees must have been dwindling since last August don't you think?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Interesting theory JWChesnut, I'd have to see some K wings to give credence to that hypothesis.

No Mark, I don't think that.

As usual, I am largely unconcerned what killed them as long as it wasn't me. At the top of the list as to the reason would be the undue influence of the "commercial" queen breeding population down the street. I bred things like this out of my population years ago by letting them die. I've been to visit his yard (disguised as a newbee in a beekeeping field day) and I was in no way impressed with what I saw, open feeding, mean bees, and malnourished mating nucs.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So when did they start dwindling down?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I don't know.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What is your autopsy for since you don't care why they died and you don't know when they started dying?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

To see what they died of and if it was my fault, as I've mentioned. If there's some obvious disease, then good riddance. If they starved and I harvested from the hive, then could likely be my fault. The goal is to become a better (and more utilitarian) beekeeper.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So what could it have been that caused them to dwindle to such a small cluster size? If it were nosema ceranae, which you won't do anything about being a treatment free beekeeper, how would knowing that make you a better beekeeper?

How are the colonies that are still alive? Are their clusters small too? Is there any value to you knowing whether they have nosema or not?

What influence do you think your neighbor apiary had on your colonies?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Feral clusters (and naturalized kept hives) here are generally quite small. They have to be to survive the long dry summer. So while these clusters are small, they're not irredeemably small. The primary reduction in cluster size happens in May/June. Whatever caused them to dwindle to such a level, it's not an unsurvivable level. And it's survival I'm after.

The knowing that a hive died of nosema ceranae does not make me a better beekeeper. Seems pretty irrelevant. Knowing how to manage earlier in the season to produce the best results and does not get in the way of the bees' survival makes me a good beekeeper. If I manage optimally and a hive dies, it's their problem.

The remaining colony in that location is fine so far, having a pretty typical cluster. The first good opportunity I get, they're coming back home and we'll go from there.

When I moved those six hives to that yard, they immediately became mean. Chances are, they weren't all superseded so quickly, so they were likely upset due to robbing pressure and over-forage. The first winter they survived fine and I requeened a couple of them last year due to the meanness. I can only speculate as to the actual effects, but 5/7 losses so far this winter have been from that yard. That has to say something.


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Solomon Parker said:


> The first good opportunity I get, they're coming back home and we'll go from there.


That's why I think it would be useful to know the tracheal and the nosema loading. You don't want to bring them back to your primary apiary if they are infected with high levels of internal parasites. Isolation and quarantine are the watchwords.

I caught a ride back from a meeting with a nearby college professor that runs a queen breeding biz on the side. I quite innocently offered to give him my stack of queen cages I have accumulated over the seasons. He nearly threw me out of the truck. That's a big no-no. He wants his queen yard uninfected with anything coming from the hoi polloi. 

I had a cut-out go down with AFB this fall. Luckily, I keep the cut-outs in major quarantine (and use specially marked tools exclusively). 

I think you would be well to be cautious about your sole survivor from the apiary. Might be robbing stress (but the combs are not chewed and honey is still on the frame), as you purport, but is equally possible to be some quasi-infectious condition. Nothing like AFB in evidence though.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If you want to autopsy a bee for tracheal mites it's actually reasonable simple long as you have some dead bees in good state of preservation.

No special tools are required other than a low power microscope but if your eyesight is good a decent magnifying glass can spot a severe case.

I won't explain it all here but google & you will find some instructions.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

JWChesnut said:


> You don't want to bring them back to your primary apiary if they are infected with high levels of internal parasites.


An excellent case can be made that I am not worried about it. But I see stress and parasites as a good thing in a breeding program.




JWChesnut said:


> Might be robbing stress (but the combs are not chewed and honey is still on the frame), as you purport, but is equally possible to be some quasi-infectious condition.


I reported robbing stress as a trigger for meanness not death. It has not apparently been warm enough at that location to allow robbing of the dead hives.




JWChesnut said:


> Nothing like AFB in evidence though.


That one I do keep an eye out for. Do you expect AFB in the winter? I guess in your location you would. Do you even have winter?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>You don't want to bring them back to your primary apiary if they are infected with high levels of internal parasites.

Odd. Dann Purvis would do it on purpose... how else would you breed for resistance?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> >You don't want to bring them back to your primary apiary if they are infected with high levels of internal parasites.
> 
> Odd. Dann Purvis would do it on purpose... how else would you breed for resistance?


Just what I was thinking. If Solomon wants survival bees seems like exposing them to everything would further the development of survival bees?


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> Odd. Dann Purvis would do it on purpose... how else would you breed for resistance?


A population of 20 colonies is *not* a sufficient breeding unit. This is the fundamental misapprehension of the "backyard" breeders. The belief that a miracle clone like the Hass Avocado or the Pettingill Apple can be discovered in someones backyard. Bees are not clones that can be grafted onto resistant rootstock and distributed.

Pushing disease into an apiary in the belief that cream will rise to the top only results in a lot of spoiled milk.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Miracle clone? Watch out, your straw man's clothes are falling off.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JWChesnut said:


> Pushing disease into an apiary in the belief that cream will rise to the top only results in a lot of spoiled milk.


Like. Nominate for 2014 Quote of the Year.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The problem is, that's not what is happening, so again, a straw man.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Pushing disease into an apiary in the belief that cream will rise to the top only results in a lot of spoiled milk. 

I think Dann has pretty well proven that is not true. He has produced some fine queens.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

It all depends on the frequency of tolerance in the target population. Given that varroa tolerance is measured in number per thousand colonies for unselected bees, that twenty colonies would be a very long shot. But given that tracheal mite tolerance has had 26 years to build up in the bee population, the odds are very good that he could find tolerance in a population of 20 or so colonies. The difficulty lies in the fact that breeding and selecting can involve a lot of dead colonies on the road to developing full tolerance.


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

During my time in Costa Rica, I was involved in a disease challenge trial against Black Pod in Cocoa. BP is an aggressive, fruit wasting disease caused by Phytophthora. This effort is somewhat similar to the logic of the Primorsky selection, as Cocoa was brought to the Caribbean coast in aboriginal times from a South American/Amazonian center of origin, and it was hypothesized that natural selection of wild sports would have favored resistant genotypes.

More than 1200 separate lineages were trialed in four common gardens, and the mature plants showing some resistance after deliberate disease challenge (about 120) were carefully crossed and recrossed. As of this year, selection and reselection (more than 20 years later) is still going on.

The assumption that resistance breeding can be short-cut is a deeply magical myth.


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Fusion_power said:


> It all depends on the frequency of tolerance in the target population.


Without a way of controlling out-crossing, the small backyard hobby breeder will not be able to maintain the lineage, even if it can be detected. You have described previously the "island and drone saturation" steps you have taken to control the outcrossing issue.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Fusion_power said:


> The difficulty lies in the fact that breeding and selecting can involve a lot of dead colonies on the road to developing full tolerance.


Therein lies the inherent difficulting in beginning a treatment-free beekeeping endeavor. That's why I focus so much on methods of increase and not getting bummed out by lost colonies.

All these theories are good and nice, but there's a few reasons why I will continue to ignore them. First, they don't come from treatment-free beekeepers. Back in the day, it was a different story. There was only one long term treatment-free beekeeper on the forums and lots of very experienced conventional beekeepers. Now that's not the case at all. There are dozens of long term TF beekeepers wandering round the internets and I happen to be one of them. And second, the TF folks have a far better record in using their data to predict outcomes than the rest. That's what science does. The big crashes Roland predicts never happen. And despite being told repeatedly that my bees are disease ridden, they're still here. And no one has ever some to visit to confirm their theories. 




JWChesnut said:


> Cocoa


Honeybees.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> The problem is, that's not what is happening, so again, a straw man.


So what is happening?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Mark, you and I have been arguing about this for years. You know exactly what is happening. I have posted more information than anyone.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I can't say that I follow you enough to really know or understand what is going on.

Not to argue, but it seems that what is happening is that your bees are dead. I don't know how many, only the ones you are showing us I guess. You may be becoming a better beekeeper, but so far removed from what I am familiar with that it doesn't look like it to me.

Which is the state of beekeeping today in general from where I sit. Beekeeping is becoming something so unfamiliar to me.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> but so far removed from what I am familiar with that it doesn't look like it to me.


That is revealing. Not of you in particular, but of conventional beekeeping. What we do doesn't look like what you do. I know that. I have spent a lot of time figuring out how to demonstrate that what we do is not what you do and shouldn't look like what you do and that backyard beekeepers should not look to commercial beekeepers for methods due to the simple fact that they are not commercial beekeepers. The same goes with TF and conventional.

Most of my hives are still alive, it has been going on for quite some time.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> The assumption that resistance breeding can be short-cut is a deeply magical myth.


Presenting the example of cocoa with the presumption that plant breeding directly correlates with bee breeding is another deep magical myth. The resistance you mention in Cocoa is an example of an r-strategist plant disease with evidence showing that resistance is based on key/lock genes which are relatively easily overcome by pathogens. Pest tolerance in honeybees is mostly based on behavioral genes such as those for grooming behavior. I would generally agree that breeding for disease/pest tolerance is a long term project, but it can be done on reasonable time scales in the range of 10 years or less depending on prevalence of resistance genes and the intensity of selection pressure. My bees are highly tolerant of varroa and have been stable for at least 3 years from a start in 2005. It still took 15 years from 1990 to 2004 to find that first resistant colony, but once found, breeding stable varroa resistance was just a matter of time.

I was hit by tracheal mites and wiped out in 1988. Buckfast genetics resolved that issue. I have never treated for tracheal mites.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Fusion_power said:


> I would generally agree that breeding for disease/pest tolerance is a long term project, but it can be done on reasonable time scales in the range of 10 years or less depending on prevalence of resistance genes and the intensity of selection pressure. My bees are highly tolerant of varroa and have been stable for at least 3 years from a start in 2005. It still took 15 years from 1990 to 2004 to find that first resistant colony, but once found, breeding stable varroa resistance was just a matter of time.


In the vein of this conversation, I'd say you can fathom of it being possible because you've done it, despite the theories. Perhaps I was fortunate in that I found those resistant colonies at the beginning or perhaps there is an other factor like management. 

Over the past 6-7 winters that I've lived in this location, I've seen colonies of only two major genres, and that is during normal cold and abnormal cold. While a minority of hives appear to die of disease pressures, major dieoffs happen at record cold temperatures. Nucs from Georgia die just because. And by major, I mean 5 or more. This is the most I've ever lost in one year, 7 dead, 8 alive and 8 as yet unchecked. My operation was stable for a couple years, the last two winters I only lost one and I still consider it to be stable in reference to varroa. My hives at home show that and the feedback from the nucs I've sold show that as well.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Isn't that kinda what people are saying. You've been keeping bees for more than 10 years? You had a couple of years you call "stable", now, as others have correctly predicted, back to a large number of dead hives, and way less survivors than you predicted last year you would have this season.

No criticism at all Solomon, you have done well, I wish I could replicate what success you have had. But a 2 season blip does not a long term success make, and it's hard to beat maths and statistics. 2 season blips are a common experience for TF beekeepers. 2 years is not a long time in the cycles of beekeeping, but in human psych, it's long enough to make many people believe they have achieved nirvana, right before major losses or crash. many here can vouch for that from personal experience, some having gone even more than 2 seasons of excellent results, before major unsustainable losses again.


----------



## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

I'm about a 2 hour drive due West of Sol. I do treat for Varroa. I'm also having the worst overwintering I've had in 7 winters of beekeeping. I don't think it's Varroa that is doing this to my hives. It also is not starvation. My best guess is that it is Nosema ceranae.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

How about the rest of the Association Neil, are they seeing increased losses as well? I'm sure I'll hear at the Buzz, but are you getting any info from the group?


----------



## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

There's not been a real survey, and its pretty early. But I have heard more bad news being reported than normal so far. Last winter, one of the beekeepers who is very competent and experienced had something like 80% of his hives die.

I had two hives die out last fall. I have another one dead right now. I have another one that's dying. I have two more that have bees but the brood pattern is lousy and there are not enough bees. I have one hive that looks good. I have another one that I've not checked yet but which did not look that great going into winter. All of them had lots of stores.

All of these hives follow a pattern of going from looking fine and dandy to not having a laying queen and dwindling out. All of these hives were treated for Varroa last August, and they were all going along fine until they just mysteriously start to not have enough bees and then end up queenless. The Varroa numbers were not high after treatments last August, and they don't appear to have died from Varroa no stunted growth, deformed wings, varroa poop in cells, etc. (although I can't really do a Varroa count on a dead hive.) Have not seen any x-wing bees. To the extent there is brood, it does not appear to be diseased. There were an unusually high number of dead bees near the front porch after the last cold spell ended, as if more than the normal number of bees died during the cold and then they all got moved out.

I usually treat for Nosema too, but I stopped doing that last year after reading that Fumigillin does not seem to affect Nosema c. One of the hive appeared to have soiling right around a top entrance the bees were using, but not lots of Varroa poop like you have with Nosema Apis. 

I really think that this is either Nosema ceranae or some virus that is spread by Varroa even if the Varroa numbers are not really high.

I know this is a treatment-free forum. I'm just reporting what I'm seeing and suggesting that there is something going on here that is unrelated to sufficient stores or Varroa.

I need to gather up my some bees in the hive that in a real nosedive and send them to Beltsville.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Seems like you aught to be able to do an alcohol wash on all of the dead bees in a hive and find what mite be there.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Neil what you describe can be related to _n cerana_, they do not poop excessively with _n cerana_ like with _n apis_.

I now have _n cerana_ in my own bees and this has been confirmed by a lab. Fortunately our environment is kind and the bees handle it well. But if in combination with high DWV can be very tough on the bees I have learned this the hard way. Don't lose hives to it here because of bee friendly weather, but the cerana / dwv combo does cause what could best be described as failure to thrive, and in a harsh winter like yours I could certainly see hives dying. The other problem with this virus combo, if you use an infected hive to raise queen cells, a lot of the queen cells get torn down by the bees when you put them in the nucs. That has been my biggest issue with it.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Eh, if I did, I'd either have mites or I wouldn't. But I can tell you already, I do have mites, everyone does.


----------



## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> When I moved those six hives to that yard, they immediately became mean. Chances are, they weren't all superseded so quickly, so they were likely upset due to robbing pressure and over-forage. The first winter they survived fine and I requeened a couple of them last year due to the meanness. I can only speculate as to the actual effects, but 5/7 losses so far this winter have been from that yard. That has to say something.


Did you re-queen them with virgins Solomon?

Mike (UK)


----------



## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

NeilV said:


> I really think that this is either Nosema ceranae or some virus that is spread by Varroa even if the Varroa numbers are not really high.
> 
> I know this is a treatment-free forum. I'm just reporting what I'm seeing and suggesting that there is something going on here that is unrelated to sufficient stores or Varroa.


Isn't 'non-lethal' pesticide damage always a standing candidate for this sort of pattern?

Mike (UK)


----------



## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Which is the state of beekeeping today in general from where I sit. Beekeeping is becoming something so unfamiliar to me.


Beekeeping became something entirely new here when varroa hit 20 or so years ago, and many old hands dropped out. The new crowd has adopted the veterinary approach to beekeeping as their foundation, and is poorly schooled in traditional selective husbandry. The results were predictable from the start. Reliance on medicaton is a ludicrous approach for an open-mating organism. 

My untreated, un-meddled-with bees have overwintered a record wet winter very well. I've lost one good one that was invaded by a nearby queenless hive that didn't have the sense to bring their stores along, so they all starved together. I drowned a tiny nuc accidentally, trying to encourage it to build a bit with syrup. I over-harvested one of my best hives then put candy on the top of a lift, instead of taking the lift off. They starved with candy 6" away. I'm most annoyed about that one, but I have several of her offspring.

My mental count is 24 still going strong, meaning I must have had 28 going into winter (having lost a few to robbing/late mating failure and combined a few). 

All the winter losses are accountable by starvation. Nothing else.

However: most of those are last year's swarms and splits/builds. I fed most of them. Most of the best older queens are kept in nucs. Apart from not treating I am protecting these in order to maintain bees that I have good reason to believe may well possess resistant traits. 

Ongoing natural (and unnatural) winnowing due to poor internal varroa control will maintain and enhance that qualitiy, and I'll work on general health and vitality and productivity in the same way.

Mike (UK)


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

mike bispham said:


> Isn't 'non-lethal' pesticide damage always a standing candidate for this sort of pattern?
> 
> Mike (UK)


Coming out of a hard winter?


----------



## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> Coming out of a hard winter?


Yes, anytime. A weakened queen and weakened bees, lightly poisoned stores ... Why should we discount it?

What Neil said, and I quoted, was "_I know this is a treatment-free forum. I'm just reporting what I'm seeing and suggesting that there is something going on here that is unrelated to sufficient stores or Varroa_."

It might just be worth looking into what might have changed, forage wise.

We've just had a change of rules that has banned what are thought to the worst neonicotinoids for a couple of years - though last year's plantings may be present this year. Whether that actually represents an improvement remains to seen - the alternatives might be as bad or worse.

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/about/intheworks/ccd-european-ban.html

Mike (UK)


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

mike bispham said:


> Why should we discount it?


Wouldn't discount it totally, but I've never seen it and I've seen a lot of hives. Problem solving works best when starting with the more likely scenarios.


----------



## stefanybezar (Feb 21, 2014)

Solomon Parker said:


> It's 35 degrees right now and I was heading home from a meeting and decided to stop and check on my north yard. I set up this yard about a year and a half ago and it has gone through two winters. Only last summer did I discover that it is actually within spitting distance of a commercial (ish) queen mill.
> 
> I like to do quick checks on hives when the weather is cold. I can look down in the hive and see how much honey is left and the size of the cluster. It's cold so the bees don't fly out and the propolis is brittle so it breaks loose pretty easily.
> 
> ...


I wish you would be having a wonderful next year, in terms of collecting honey. At my place the situation is pretty bad.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

mike bispham said:


> Isn't 'non-lethal' pesticide damage always a standing candidate for this sort of pattern?
> 
> Mike (UK)


Pretty low on the list, if at all.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

mike bispham said:


> We've just had a change of rules that has banned what are thought to the worst neonicotinoids for a couple of years - though last year's plantings may be present this year. Whether that actually represents an improvement remains to seen - the alternatives might be as bad or worse.
> 
> Mike (UK)


And after two years poor results there will be a call for two more years ban.


----------



## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

I live in the middle of a city, and in a relatively financially challenged part of the city. (The advantage is that I live on 3 acres near 25 acres of woods in the middle of town at an affordable cost.) The only chemical sprayed in any quantity is 2-4d, which the City itself sprays for weed control on a very large right-of-way in a flood plain by my house. I doubt there are any neonics sprayed at all in the area where my bees fly.


----------



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Sol wrote:

The big crashes Roland predicts never happen. 


I predicted that in 20 years, due to the high cost of sterilization equipment, only commercial beekeepers will be treatment free.

Seeing as how 20 years has not passed, and I made no claims on the speed of the bees demise(it could be slow), exactly how is my claim not fulfilled?

Crazy Roland


----------



## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

NeilV said:


> I live in the middle of a city, and in a relatively financially challenged part of the city. (The advantage is that I live on 3 acres near 25 acres of woods in the middle of town at an affordable cost.) The only chemical sprayed in any quantity is 2-4d, which the City itself sprays for weed control on a very large right-of-way in a flood plain by my house. I doubt there are any neonics sprayed at all in the area where my bees fly.


In my situation its something I fret about. The downside of lots of small mixed farms on broken country is that there's always some commercial crop being planted or sprayed with heaven knows what within reach. I can't say I've had any definate problems yet though. I have a stand right next to about 50 acres of field beans this year, and am hoping they'll be ok. I know field beans are sprayed against fungus infections round here at least once early in the season. 

Mike (UK)


----------



## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Mike, if you are unsure of the well being of your bees being next to a crop that you know will be sprayed why wouldn't you move them to a safe place?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

mike bispham said:


> Did you re-queen them with virgins Solomon?


No, I don't use virgins. All grafted queens are mated in my home yard.




stefanybezar said:


> I wish you would be having a wonderful next year, in terms of collecting honey.


I'm not expecting to harvest this year. I'm moving to a totally new climate and am planning for the bees to have trouble with it, so I'm leaving all honey.




Roland said:


> exactly how is my claim not fulfilled?


You predicted on a number of occasions that I was set to have a big crash right around the corner due to CCD or mites, but mostly CCD. Now you can waffle about timetables but that's not really my bag. I'm in the habit of NOT predicting the future.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Well, all those boxes that had honey are now on the hives in my home yard. So those of you that are concerned about disease will get to watch my entire operation crash before my eyes and I won't have a clue!

Now no hive has fewer than 4 boxes on it which is something I've been wanting to do for a long time. I have enough to get them up to five (seven mediums) but didn't want to add too many boxes at once.


----------



## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Haraga said:


> Mike, if you are unsure of the well being of your bees being next to a crop that you know will be sprayed why wouldn't you move them to a safe place?


Well, for one there are worse places to be than right next to a big field of field beans, unless and until any spraying becomes a problem. If there isn't a problem it could well be a productive stand - there is also lots of topfruit nearby, and little rough flora. Again, round here it isn't easy to escape the arable crops altogether. I do have stands in places that are closer to a forest setting, and other in-betweens. This one is close to home, and useful for parking swarms and splits and bled bees from hives a few miles away. Mainly I have it because I'm trying to develop long-term stands in ideal spots - hidden but accessible behind locked gates - and this could be a good one. And I want to experiment a lot to see what works and what doesn't.

So those are the main reasons I don't want to move them.


Mike (UK)


----------



## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> No, I don't use virgins. All grafted queens are mated in my home yard.


Perhaps overwhelmed by the wrong strains of varroa then? (I think that low fecundity varroa, as bred by vhs bees, supplies protection against flown-in fecund strains. A new split with little varroa, placed near lots of treated bees may need time to build a protective population.) 

Mike (UK)


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Solomon Parker said:


> I'm moving to the Denver area . . .


Colorado is awesome. You will love it here.

Beekeeping can be tough, though, due to our dry climate. We have two local sayings which help paint a picture of agricultural life in Colorado: 1) whiskey is for drinking, water is for fighting; and, 2) in Colorado, water flows uphill to money. 

Regarding beekeeping, in my limited experience, spring typically brings a strong flow, followed by a long summer dearth with a small and sometimes non-existent fall flow. Hives that build up fast in late winter and early spring to take strong advantage of the spring flow tend to do best. Also, positioning hives within foraging range of irrigated lands to offset the dry summer can be helpful, but irrigated land in Colorado is not necessarily easy to find.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

mike bispham said:


> Perhaps overwhelmed by the wrong strains of varroa then?


I haven't had any noticeable varroa problems in quite a few years. I also don't believe in "wrong strains of varroa." Whatever it was, it was not something that shows itself with outward signs.

I do believe in extra cold winters and that cold can kill bees not adapted for it.


----------

