# Starter vs Finisher differences questions



## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

I'm seeing this a lot in threads and have questions on the differences.

Is a "starter" hive basically a lot of nurse bees that will care for larvae mainly for producing queen cells? After the queen cells are capped, the cell goes into the "finisher"? Technically this hive is doomed near the end of the original nurse bees life (unless manipulated by the beekeeper)?

Is a "finisher" hive basically the final resting place for the capped queen cell which serves as a "mating nuc" for the virgin queen and serves as a final "hive/nuc" for the matted queen? At this point the queen stays in this hive to lay eggs?

If all this is correct, then wouldn't a regular 1 time walk away split be the starter and finisher combined?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is a "starter" hive basically a lot of nurse bees that will care for larvae mainly for producing queen cells? After the queen cells are capped, the cell goes into the "finisher"? Technically this hive is doomed near the end of the original nurse bees life (unless manipulated by the beekeeper)?

Often a "starter" is only for the first 24 to 48 hours to get the cells started. Not necessarily to get them capped. It is often queenless and broodless and confined. The object is to have a lot of nurse bees that were nursing 2 hours ago and a lot of queen cells for them to feed and nothing else for them to do.

http://bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#The Starter Hive
http://bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearingsimplified.htm#TheSwarmBox
http://bushfarms.com/beesalleymethod.htm#prepare_for_queen-cells 

>Is a "finisher" hive basically the final resting place for the capped queen cell which serves as a "mating nuc" for the virgin queen and serves as a final "hive/nuc" for the matted queen? At this point the queen stays in this hive to lay eggs?

No. The mating nuc is another step. The "finisher" is a queenless or queenright, free flying hive.

The mating nuc is usually a minimal sized box with a little brood to anchor the bees and a bit of honey.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm#matingnucs

>If all this is correct, then wouldn't a regular 1 time walk away split be the starter and finisher combined? 

A walk away spit is a starter, finisher and mating nuc. But you only get one queen in the end... with a little work that could be more queens.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesafewgoodqueens.htm

Here's an overview of the concepts of queen rearing and why you wouldn't just do a lot of walk away splits instead:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

Been reading your website all day, learned a lot, thank you! 

Still trying to wrap my head around all of it, but technically depending on what you want accomplished you can stop the process depending on what you are trying to achieve. This is mainly configurations for a fast rotation of queens in and out for a quick period of time.

For example, if you wanted to generate 500 queens in a set period of time, then the starter/finisher/mating nuc can be rotated accordingly?


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

angel said:


> Been reading your website all day, learned a lot, thank you!
> 
> Still trying to wrap my head around all of it, but technically depending on what you want accomplished you can stop the process depending on what you are trying to achieve. This is mainly configurations for a fast rotation of queens in and out for a quick period of time.
> 
> For example, if you wanted to generate 500 queens in a set period of time, then the starter/finisher/mating nuc can be rotated accordingly?


Here's link to a very interesting presentation by Michael Palmer and all the credit goes to him. Lot's of information on Starters and Finishers.

http://www.google.ca/url?url=http:/...twIwAQ&usg=AFQjCNGnHUrUFWZ7ohD6UzAjNkKMFk2LAg

Think I grabbed the wrong presentation

This is probably it -

http://www.google.com/url?url=http:...twIwAA&usg=AFQjCNF3qebrG4drdRVjlf3SDd4jxpZPmA


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Good for you, angel, reading so much!

Just for the sake of the thread, a *STARTER* colony uses _emergency response_ (having become suddenly queenless) to get lots of 5- to 15-day old nurse bees to start LOTS OF QUEEN CELLS. The problem is that they will only complete a few of the ones they started.

A *FINISHER* colony is a large colony that is queenright, has nurse bees added, and the queen is kept under an excluder so that not much of her queen substances reach the top box where the queen cells are placed. The bees interpret these as _supercedure response_ queen cells, and TAKE VERY GOOD CARE OF THEM. They would normally not start very many queen cells as such.

Generally, starters are not good finishers, finishers are not good starters.


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

kilocharlie said:


> Generally, starters are not good finishers, finishers are not good starters.


This part pretty much clicked with me to make a lot of sense. My confusion came with why not let your starters be your finishers as well. Thank you.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

angel said:


> This part pretty much clicked with me to make a lot of sense. My confusion came with why not let your starters be your finishers as well. Thank you.


It all depends on how many cells you want to graft into the stater hive.
If 5 cells then it is easily taken care by the starter hive. But if you want to graft 20-100
cells then maybe there is not enough bees to take care of them all without exhausting their resources.
Often a finisher hive will have foragers coming in to bring more resources to the nurse bees thereby helping to
make bigger more well feed cells for better queens. 
Each beekeeper has his or her own ways of doing things. I think if you just want a few cells then limit them to the
starter to be your finisher will be o.k. But make sure they have plenty of resources to go the long way. Also, if anything
fail or delayed then the finisher hive will turn into a LWs hive. Dealing with such a large starter LWs hive is not want you want
for the headache of a newbee. A LWs hive will kill many queen bees when you try to introduce her in
without knowing it. I'd been thru it all and each time will make better adjustment for my queen rearing operation. Maybe
use an incubator to assist this process for a better result and transition the next time. Have fun with this learning process.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Angel,

The system you adopt depends heavily upon how many cells you're planning to produce in a given cycle and how many times you plan to repeat. If you're looking for 15 very nice cells per week, a massively packed 5-frame deep nuc (4 frames+cell bar) will do a very nice job. Nurse bees can be added periodically to keep young bee population high. Of course adding capped brood is essential too. You could also look into the Cloake board system for an additional technique to help hone your skills. The statement by Kilo above: "The problem is that they will only complete a few of the ones they started." needs some qualification as starters are perfectly well-suited to finish what they started, but the issue is that you can't ask too much from them. The nuc system I mention here will EASILY start and finish 15 beautiful cells. If you want 45 cells, then you're going to need a bigger population to consistently get high quality cells. I think you need to experiment with several different systems and find one that best suits your needs. The starter/finisher may not be it, but you should definitely give it a try - just consider other methods too.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I would disagree with the comment, "It depends on how many you want to start." How many you get started depends on how well you set up a starter. As an example I grafted 45 cells and got two excepted. Hardly what I was wanting. The details make it clear why there is such a thing as a starter. The closer you get it to right the better the started cell rate is.

In the case of the 45 grafts. I may have found 35 started after 24 hours. But give it another day or two and all but two of them had been torn back down. Again showing at least one example of why there is a starter and a finisher.

The goal of a starter is to have maximum graft acceptance. the goal of the finisher is to have maximum queens reared. I can at times have a single hive serve as both starter and finisher but that is when queen rearing conditions are optimal. Such as last May when my hives where right at the door step of swarm season. they all combined reared nearly 300 queens. But for continuous acceptable numbers better methods are required. This is where starter and finishers get involved. Mating nucs are for those that want to get queens mated and then sell them or add them to existing hives. It does not work well to try and build an entire colony from a mating nuc population.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>For example, if you wanted to generate 500 queens in a set period of time, then the starter/finisher/mating nuc can be rotated accordingly? 

Yes.

>Generally, starters are not good finishers, finishers are not good starters.

I think that is a overstatement. The goals are not opposed to each other, they just aren't the same goal. So the best finisher may not be the best starter, but you can set up up a good starter/finisher in one. You just can't set up an awesome starter/finisher in one. Doing them separately allows for better use of the resources of bees. Doing them in one step may make better use of the resource of your time...


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

It is a simplified statement, and scale has a bit to do with it. It seems to hold true the smaller the hive. In any case, raising queens puts load on a hive, so trying to raise lots of queens in a weak colony will likely disappoint the beekeeper.

By increasing the scale and crowding lots of bees, especially 5- to 10-day old bees into the hives(s), the bees are driven by _swarming impulse_ as well. This has been shown to improve starters, finishers, and combined starter/finisher colonies, so if you have enough bee resources, import capped brood 10 days before grafting.

Harry Cloake came up with a reasonable method for a starter/finisher, and Michael Palmer likes to have more control over the royal jelly, so he uses separate starters and finishers.

If you have lots of bee colonies and go at it full-time, you'll probably prefer separate starters and finishers, both having lots of additional capped brood 10 days before grafting. Smaller operators seeking to put little time or effort into it my prefer a Cloake Board, as it's quick and easy to change from starter mode to finisher mode, and it works reasonably well if you 1) use at least a 3-box tall colony, 2) keep the queen in the bottom box under the Cloake Board, 3) place the queen cell bar in the top box, and 4) remember to pull the board out after 24 hours.


There are many other methods that will render successful results, my statement that, "generally speaking, starters make poor finishers, finishers make poor starters" was plagiarized from Dr. Larry Connor and is indeed general. Specific setups will likely vary. Good luck!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

While I don't know the many meaning behind all these terms, I can only focus on practical methods and constant improvement on queen rearing. Because beekeeping is so forgiving and flexible there are many changes you can make to further improve on this process. For instance, when the starter had built some cells I will turn it into a better finisher by increasing their bee population. Adding more bees and placing this starter nuc hive onto a strong foraging colony will help the nurse bees to produce more RJ. Every cell after the queen hatched will have excess RJ on the cell cup inside. The final result is bigger cells with healthier more productive queens. I think the term is the "Bomb!" 

So what is the best practical consistent methods and strategies you use to grow better, bigger and more productive queens?


Consistent bigger and healthier queens, the "Bomb!":


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