# Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?



## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

SWARMING
ITS CONTROL AND PREVENTION by L. E. Snelgrove. You can download a free PDF.

It was confusing to me at first, but after physically employing them it all made sense. :doh:

Sorry, no link.

Alex


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## amk (Dec 16, 2017)

If your bees are that swarmy you may have bad genetics.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

One of the simplest approaches is to pinch the old queen early in spring. Either let them make a replacement or give them a newly mated queen. Then, do the rest of the usual things. Make sure that they have room. A colony with a new queen is MUCH less likely to swarm. It isn’t 100% but it works much of the time, in my experience.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

amk said:


> If your bees are that swarmy you may have bad genetics.


I agree. Change where you get your queens from. A good breeder of queens will use lack of swarming as a criteria for choosing the queen mothers used for raising queens. Bees caught as swarms are more swarmy. Bees caught as swarms year after year are even more swarmy. Also, different breeds of bees are more swarmy than others, although maybe not as much now as used to be from the breeders of different lines of bees choose queen mothers that don't have a history of swarming in their background. Overly swarmy bees are slowly being bred out by at least some breeders.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

username00101 said:


> The whole experience made me seriously doubt the feasibility of attempting to control swarming without performing a significant spring split.


Really no need to do a "significant" spring split. When the hives are built up and you sense that they could soon be initiating swarm preparations just remove the queen with a few frames and some bees - small split. It will keep the main hive busy for a while raising a new queen and could get you past the prime reproductive swarm period. 

If for some reason the new queen doesn't take, you still have the old queen in reserve you could combine back with the original colony. If the new queen is laying and all looks well, but you don't really want the extra split, when you are past the swarm period you can pinch the old queen and do a newpaper combine which should line up with your main nectar flow.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

username00101 said:


> The whole experience made me seriously doubt the feasibility of attempting to control swarming without performing a significant spring split.



i'm sure it seems like that at this point in your experience.

it gets easier when you get beyond the first year and as you start acquiring a surplus of drawn comb.

do a search for walt wright's 'checkerboarding' and/or matt davey's 'opening up the sides'.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

AHudd said:


> SWARMING
> ITS CONTROL AND PREVENTION by L. E. Snelgrove. You can download a free PDF.
> 
> It was confusing to me at first, but after physically employing them it all made sense. :doh:
> ...



The Snelgrove double screen division board certainly has worked well for me in regards to swarming and handily takes care of queen rearing. I put them on about the time drones are flying. Not much swarming before then. Snelgroves timing to put them on in England is just about bang on for me too in N. Ontario.

I could not quickly come up with the Pdf. of his booklet but it is available.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Sometimes I'll find a super strong hive building queen cells, I do not want to make a split, use a snellboard, or take bees, but I know that even if I kill the queen cells and re arrange the hive, that hive is going to build new ones and swarm anyway. 

A quick and nasty method that works in these cases, is find the queen and pinch her, plus kill all but 2 of the queen cells.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> A quick and nasty method that works in these cases, is find the queen and pinch her, plus kill all but 2 of the queen cells.


This too!


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## Skeggley (Jul 25, 2015)

username00101 said:


> Is it feasible, or at least realistic to expect to prevent swarming without performing a spring split?
> 
> This year in my apiary, swarming was a major issue. I noticed that even hives that I took multiple frames of brood, STILL swarmed.
> 
> To my dismay, I even found that colonies that had swarmed in June, decided to swarm AGAIN in mid August


Sometimes, with productive queens, just one split once a year isn’t enough especially with multiple or extended flows.
Productive queens are often mistaken for a swarmy queen. If a queen lays 2000 eggs a day for 2 months.....


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

crofter said:


> The Snelgrove double screen division board certainly has worked well for me in regards to swarming and handily takes care of queen rearing. I put them on about the time drones are flying. Not much swarming before then. Snelgroves timing to put them on in England is just about bang on for me too in N. Ontario.
> 
> I could not quickly come up with the Pdf. of his booklet but it is available.


When I downloaded the PDF, I changed the name of the shortcut on my desktop, and for some reason I lost the direct link. That was the first time that has happened. I must have done something wrong. Oh, well. 

I also think timing is the key. 

My bees start their Spring build-up in mid February and depending on whether or not a late frost kills the Redbud blooms dictates when to do what. 

Alex


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Simply because a bee colony swarms doesn’t imply that it has ‘bad genes’. Swarming isn’t driven by crowding. Crowding contributes but isn’t the driver alone. I have any number of hives swarm even with empty comb. Swarming is a reproductive event. Every successful species has reproduction high on its list of genetic traits. Bees included.
There are times when I open a hive in spring and find a number of capped swarm cells, a number of open swarm cells with a larva floating in a sea of royal jelly and a number of newly made swarm cells with an egg in each. These hives were heading for multiple swarms. After three swarms the colony is unlikely to recover. This sort of excessive swarming surely qualifies as the product of ‘bad genes’. 
In my experience the single most important thing a beekeeper can do is make sure that the colony is headed by a young queen. The younger, the better. At that point, make sure that the hive doesn’t get overcrowded and the likelihood of it issuing a swarm is low. 
Just my opinion based on my experience.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i've no experience with a snelgrove board but i can certainly see the merits in using one for swarm prevention, especially if making new queens and/or increase hive count is part of the plan.

if my few remaining colonies make it through the winter i'll be looking to make as much increase from them as i can so swarm prevention won't be an issue.

i may very well give the snelgrove boards a try.


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

What if you just kept a queen excluder over the entrance?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

they put the queen on a diet before they swarm (so she can fly) and she can get through an excluder

is this the pdf folks referred too?
http://www.eastdevonbk.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Snelgrove-April-28th.pdf


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

ifixoldhouses said:


> What if you just kept a queen excluder over the entrance?


The Drones won't be ale to come and go, but I have heard people say they do that.

Alex


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

drobbins said:


> they put the queen on a diet before they swarm (so she can fly) and she can get through an excluder
> 
> is this the pdf folks referred too?
> http://www.eastdevonbk.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Snelgrove-April-28th.pdf


I was referring to the original, but the one at your link looks easier to follow.

Alex


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

drobbins said:


> they put the queen on a diet before they swarm (so she can fly) and she can get through an excluder
> 
> is this the pdf folks referred too?
> http://www.eastdevonbk.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Snelgrove-April-28th.pdf


It is not Snelgroves original words but it covers the basics. Snelgrove goes into a bit more detail on _why_ it works but his language is a bit stilted and unusual by todays standards of English in N. America.

As AHudd mentions it is a lot simpler once you have gone through the procedure a time or two. Bees act on instinct and you can trick them into self sorting their age groups so that neither top or bottom box condition makes them feel like the time is right to swarm. By the time they reorganize, the prime swarm time has usually passed. Only once I had to repeat but that was my error in placing the division board too early in the spring buildup.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

All of my bees originally arrived here as swarms, so I know they "know how" to swarm. But most years they don't bother - they just put me to a fair amount of work keeping a close eye on them.

Snelgrove boards don't prevent swarming, nor do they "control" it. They simply give you a very handy way to make a swarm-stopping split - even at the very last minute when other types of splits will have a low rate of success.

What does seem to work well to deter colonies from getting "swarm-y" is a combination of Walt Wright's and MattDavey's techniques. And actually in the case of Walt Wrights technique, swarm-deterence is kind of an off-label use of his method which was originally devised for nectar management. In my northern NY area, I find it also works well as a first-up manipulation and kind of sets the stage for seguing into MattDavey's "Opening the Sides of the Brood Nest" for the last 2/3 of the pre-swarm season. 

I usually do at least 2 rounds of WW's box rotations, sometimes three. because my basic brood nest is three 10-frame deeps

I do both those two things, but I also think successful swarm-management requires devotion to frequent checks to make sure you're not missing a clue that your plans are not working. When I hear complaints about excess swarming, I usually ask how frequently the hives have been checked. I check my hives every 5 or 6 days from the end of April until mid-June. Of course I don't pull frames this often, I just tip up every brood box and look under it. That will tell me whether we're still on _my_ plan or whether I need to slap a SB on them to interrupt _their_ plan. There is no substitute for very close monitoring.

I only rarely want to make a new colony, since I don't want to expand my hive count. 

I have read the "keep a very young queen" recommendation many times. I never deliberately requeen, and so my marked queens vary in age in the spring from less than a year (superseded the previous year) to three years old (likely to be superseded that summer.) I don't see much, if any, correlation with the age of the queen when using my fairly assertive swarm-management efforts. I don't see much swarming, period.

Over the winter, spend some time studying Walt's writing (there's a lot of it here on BS) and reading up on MattDavey's ideas. If you try them, I think you will have better luck. But don't just hope for the best: tip up those boxes frequently and keep SBs on hand to fix thing that get out of hand.

Nancy


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

username00101 said:


> Question for the experienced beekeepers here. Is it feasible, or at least realistic to expect to prevent swarming without performing a spring split?
> 
> This year in my apiary, swarming was a major issue. I noticed that even hives that I took multiple frames of brood, STILL swarmed.
> 
> ...


What I see I my area is quite a bit different from what beeks in the east see. In this area, the months of April and early May are swarm heaven for bees. During that time, maples, almonds, peaches, plums, apples and cherries all bloom pretty much at the same time. We have loads of all of them in the area. Big leaf maples AKA Oregon maples in particular are the biggest producer of nectar. The bees can easily fill a deep with maple nectar in a week and the flow can last for three weeks. I find that the bees swarm when the queen runs out of room to lay. Supers are useless because the bees are not thinking about winter storage in April. They are genetically programed to reproduce (swarm) at that time, not store food for winter. The last three years I put supers on in February and I will not do it again. They never put a drop in the supers and if you looked in them, there was never more than a couple of bees there either. They happily fill the supers in late May and June but will not during swarm season. At least they won't in my area. The bees are always putting nectar on the sides of the brood area and compressing it downward and towards the middle until there is no space left. Then they do the same in the lower box. Last year in an act of desperation, I put the supers below the brood boxes on 2 hives. The queen moved into the supers and started laying there and I got 2 deep boxes of maple honey from each hive. And neither swarmed. I tested it again this year on four hives with the same results. It will now be my go to system for swarm control. I feel that if the bees keep forcing the queen to lay lower and lower in the hive, why fight it? I am going to go with what they are doing and give her more room at the bottom of the hive. 

Swarming can be reduced but it will require some annual testing on your part to figure out what works best for you. As stated previously, read the writings of Walt Wright and find the thread by Matt Davey on opening the sides of the broodnest. It is great info. I do think that if your bees are swarming in August, There must be something you need to adjust to in order to prevent it. Bees generally don't want to swarm that late in the year unless there is a problem. I have never found that taking frames of brood will stop or slow down the swarming impulse. Taking the queen out will but clearly you don't want to do that.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

username00101 said:


> Question for the experienced beekeepers here. Is it feasible, or at least realistic to expect to prevent swarming without performing a spring split?
> 
> This year in my apiary, swarming was a major issue. I noticed that even hives that I took multiple frames of brood, STILL swarmed.
> 
> ...


Of course what everyone else has said is true, and do try next year some of the suggestions that have been made. But from your description of what you did and what the bees did this year for you, it just seems to me you might possibly have some overly swarmy genetics in your hives. I just posted as I did to give a different perspective I guess. As always and to everyone, best of luck with your bees.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Is it feasible, or at least realistic to expect to prevent swarming without performing a spring split?

Feasible, realistic and should be your goal if you want to make honey rather than increase. Sometimes things are further along and you can't prevent it because of their timing in regards to your timing...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm

"The confusion of conceptions which arises in the mind when the term swarm-prevention is mentioned, has to a great extent, been a hindrance to logical reasoning on the subject. At mention of the swarm, there is conjured up from the background of our minds, the exciting and spectacular scenes we have seen enacted around the apiary. What we want to prevent is not the birth but the conception. We must go even prior to this and prevent the primal urge. To avoid confusion and give reason and logic an opportunity to work, unhampered by visions conjured up at mention of the word swarm, the word urge will be used here to refer to the initial starting point of the swarming impulse."—E.D. Clark, Constructive Beekeeping

If you intervene soon enough it is usually feasible. 

While I have certainly seen bees that I would classify as swarmy, them swarming is not evidence of that. Them swarming when there is no apparent reason and it's not the right time of year, and afterswarming until there are no bees left, would be swarmy.

"For years our bee journals have been printing reams of articles on the question of a non-swarming strain of bees. It has always seemed to me there was a lot of time wasted advocating such an improbable accomplishment, because nature would hardly yield to an arrangement that in itself might destroy the species. If accomplished it would be tantamount to breeding the mating instinct out of domestic animals." --P.C. Chadwick ABJ, April 1936

Bees swarm. Thank goodness for that or there would be no bees left in the world. But we can certainly intervene. See my link above for my method. There are several methods that can be successful and several that are dismal failures...


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

And then there is Ian Steppler's method.

https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...o-control-swarming-in-a-large-scale-operation

also his website: 
http://www.stepplerfarms.com/StepplerHoney.html

and a 40 min presentation: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=386qWGnt_CU

This technique requires drawn honey supers.

In very short summary:
1. Hives are overwintered (indoors, in Canada) as a single deep. Then the hives are brought out in spring.
2. Then at some point in spring, a second deep with drawn comb is put on. The queen lays this up.
3. Once it is capped brood, the queen is shaken/forced down and a Queen Excluder put on. The bottom deep got either filled with nectar or opened up while the queen was above, so it is empty of brood and ready for her. I think DRAWN supers are put on now too - because the bees will be bringing in nectar, or moving nectar out of the bottom deep as the queen moves down there.
4. Once the capped brood emerges, that second deep is removed.

I think this is the flow. Check it out for yourself! A local beek has been doing this, and I just realized I have some questions about the technique.... perhaps I'll report back! Someday soon I'll watch that vid too.


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## rangerpeterj (Dec 27, 2015)

try Wally Shaw pdf from Welsh Beekeepers association for a more conclusive writing on snelgrove http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/a018themanyusesofasnelgroveboard.pdf


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I will not introduce other possibilities than what has already been discussed, but will only add a little strategy and comment on what I have had marginal success doing.

Location, Location, Location. I have brood in my hives all year long and an extremely long growing season. They ramp up in January, I have swarms that start in February and I caught a swarm on Halloween last year. I can't keep manipulating hives all year, so I have to pick my battles and manipulate to optimize workforce during the flows I want to capture. As to the rest of the year . . . they are on their own.

Favorite: Beemandan's pinching of the queen. Killing your queen as you are entering the nectar flow and before swarming works very well. The eggs laid at the beginning of the flow will be of no benefit to the production of the hive during the flow. Having a fresh new queen coming out of the flow will promote a good ramping up of bees before winter. Put pinching your queen in "primetime" is a gutsy move for a newer beekeeper and would understand your reluctance to do that.

Second Favorite: Crofter's Snelgrove Board. You need to read Snelgrove's book. Snelgrove was English and probably has a similar climate to PA. Your season is not as long as mine, so a Snelgrove board manipulation might be all you need. It basically buys me 6 to 8 weeks. Beyond that, I have to either do it again, or I lose them to swarming. It could be perfect for your shorter season. Effective, and probably all you need in more northern climates. I see Wally Shaw's adaptation to the Snelgrove board has a link posted above. I used to keep a copy of that in my truck. Excellent.


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

ifixoldhouses said:


> What if you just kept a queen excluder over the entrance?


If they decide to swarm, the emerging virgin could kill your mated queen. The virgin wouldn't be able to go out and mate. This can be a short term fix, but it's not a place it and forget it strategy.


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

That's how the killer bees got started, some guy took off all the queen excluders on the entrances and they took off out into the wild 
Someone said they can fit through when their skinny, but I have them in queen clips and they didn't escape, looks about the same size?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>That's how the killer bees got started, some guy took off all the queen excluders on the entrances and they took off out into the wild...

I know it's commonly told, but it is such a bullsh*t story. Drones would have been getting out or they would clog the excluders. If drones can get out, queens can get out. If drones are getting out the genes are already geting out...


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> >That's how the killer bees got started, some guy took off all the queen excluders on the entrances and they took off out into the wild...
> 
> I know it's commonly told, but it is such a bullsh*t story. Drones would have been getting out or they would clog the excluders. If drones can get out, queens can get out. If drones are getting out the genes are already geting out...


That's the story I have also always heard. Were there no actual controls in place or was it just poorly executed so they needed to create a scapegoat?

Alex


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

That is the story told by Dr. Kerr, I see no reason to call him a liar.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I just always took it as true, also. Now that I think about, maybe the QEs were put on to contain the Drones as well.

It has been way to long since I read about it and I'm not even sure of the source. Oh, well.

Alex


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

username00101 said:


> Question for the experienced beekeepers here. Is it feasible, or at least realistic to expect to prevent swarming without performing a spring split?


Get asked this all the time by new beekeepers in the second year as swarm season ramps up, usually after they have had one or more swarms.

My answer is always the same. Without a decent inventory of drawn comb, the only way I have found that works is to split the colony. This is what they want to do, so do a walk away split before the bees do the fly away split. If you have an inventory of drawn comb, as long as you keep ahead of the queen with empty drawn comb then you can keep bees in the boxes. Some colonies will be bent on swarming even with empty drawn comb in the hive, and that's when you know they are just swarmy bees and need a new queen from a different line. With bees not prone to swarming, the key is to make sure there is always empty drawn comb for the queen to lay in, either fresh comb you are adding, or recently emerged brood.

During our February and March bee club meetings, always some folks terribly disappointed because one of the colonies they have didn't survive the winter. I tell them, that is indeed your ticket to a large honey crop this year because now you have an inventory of drawn comb to use for swarm management.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

grozzie2 said:


> Get asked this all the time by new beekeepers in the second year as swarm season ramps up, usually after they have had one or more swarms.
> 
> My answer is always the same. Without a decent inventory of drawn comb, the only way I have found that works is to split the colony. This is what they want to do, so do a walk away split before the bees do the fly away split. If you have an inventory of drawn comb, as long as you keep ahead of the queen with empty drawn comb then you can keep bees in the boxes. Some colonies will be bent on swarming even with empty drawn comb in the hive, and that's when you know they are just swarmy bees and need a new queen from a different line. With bees not prone to swarming, the key is to make sure there is always empty drawn comb for the queen to lay in, either fresh comb you are adding, or recently emerged brood.
> 
> During our February and March bee club meetings, always some folks terribly disappointed because one of the colonies they have didn't survive the winter. I tell them, that is indeed your ticket to a large honey crop this year because now you have an inventory of drawn comb to use for swarm management.


How much of an inventory of drawn comb is generally required for a standard overwintered hive?

In my setup, all of the strong hives will be overwintering with 2 deeps and a medium, all drawn.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Without a decent inventory of drawn comb, the only way I have found that works is to split the colony. 

In my experience empty frames are much more effective at preventing swarming than drawn comb. If you put drawn comb in the brood nest they immediately backfill it. If you put an empty frame in, as soon as there is a mid rib and a little bit of a wall the queen lays in it before the cell is deep enough to backfill it. I don't but drawn comb in to prevent swarming when they are backfilling. Just empty frames. Drawn comb is very useful in the supers, of course, but by the time the main flow starts swarming usually isn't as much of a problem.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

> In my experience empty frames are much more effective at preventing swarming than drawn comb.


For some reason my experience has been just the opposite. If I insert empty frames in or around the broodnest when the bees are just beginning to backfill and thinking about swarm preparations they completely ignore the empty frames and keep backfilling any drawn comb in the brood nest. But, if I pull out brood frames that are being backfilled with nectar and move them up into a super, then insert empty drawn brood comb in it's place, the queen will be laying eggs in at least part of the frame. 

I've tried inserting empty frames prior to swarming and it just never seems to work out. Drawn comb is the only thing that works for me. The bees don't seem to want to waste any effort drawing out much new comb until we are well into swarm season, or just after. Maybe it's a regional weather thing, I don't know.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> For some reason my experience has been just the opposite.


That is my experience as well. Keep empty drawn brood comb ahead of the queen so she can lay, and they stay put. But once backfill starts, the swarm has become inevitable. We have a strong flow during the swarm period, from about mid April thru till mid June. If I dont have empty drawn supers on, and empty drawn comb for the brood nest, then swarm preps are likely.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Here is a link to a radical treatment to prevent swarming. I have no doubt it is effective but seems wasteful. It should be noted though that it was written 1906 to 1909 before Varroa and the need to provide for 30% or more yearly colony replacement. It is 15 minute read. One of the things I considered before settling on Snelgroves method.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...original.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2Bxe9esKho3_Aqa_OzXEwv

If this does not hyperlink then google 


Jones, Henry A radical cure for swarming habit of bees


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

As an alternate option, you could just let them swarm and catch the swarms. Lazutin "Keeping Bees with a Smile"


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

amk said:


> If your bees are that swarmy you may have bad genetics.


Some bees will want to swarm from half-empty hives.
There is nothing you can do.

Best you can do - take advantage and split then (it will take the change of anti-splitting management, however; the question is - why the anti-split approach anyway? what is wrong with it?).


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

What is wrong with it is that over time you will populate your apiary with the swarmiest of bees.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

^^^


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

crofter said:


> Jones, Henry A radical cure for swarming habit of bees


That was an interesting read. 

I wonder if the underlying reason this technique worked for him would be the resulting imbalance of bee age groups within the hive during the prime swarm period. In a couple weeks there would be a sizable shift in population commonly found during spring build up and the swarm period, from a majority of young bees to older bees and foragers. 

Could there be other ways to achieve the same results without destroying all the worker brood?


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

Mike Gillmore said:


> That was an interesting read.
> 
> I wonder if the underlying reason this technique worked for him would be the resulting imbalance of bee age groups within the hive during the prime swarm period. In a couple weeks there would be a sizable shift in population commonly found during spring build up and the swarm period, from a majority of young bees to older bees and foragers.
> 
> Could there be other ways to achieve the same results without destroying all the worker brood?


that radical cure is quite labor intensive.
other way: formic stops the queens from laying for a few days. same imbalance of population. i do MAQS treatment when drones start emerging. no swarms this year. but i have also been promoting my strongest hives to make swarm preps for the past several years. the ones that dont are the ones i graft from. the ones that do make preps are halted by moving that queen into a weak hive and turning the colony into a cell builder after cutting down swarm cells.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Mike Gillmore said:


> That was an interesting read.
> 
> Could there be other ways to achieve the same results without destroying all the worker brood?


Agree with CR. That would be an incredibly labor intensive operation. 

Why wouldn't you just pinch your queen?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Anyone brave enough to try it. Would be interesting to see what colony conditions are at two and four weeks after compared to control hives given different treatments (or none) It obviously changes demographics. A kicked around figure is to take swarm precautions when there is 6 frames of mostly capped brood. He suggests leaving 2 frames of capped unmolested. I have to go through a similar frame sort when setting up for a Snelgrove separation. Shaking frames etc to judge contents and shake the queen to the desired box. I dont think it would take much longer to rake the cappings on 4 frames of brood. 

I commonly savage capped honey in top corners of frames to get the bees to empty them for the queen to lay. With Jones solution that would not be necessary.

It sounds so wild at first consideration that dismissing it would be easy. Maybe it has merit comparable to pinching queens.


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## OBG (Jun 16, 2013)

Dead on good advice, Nancy. I’ve used WW, particularly the later years of his work, since 2015. No swarms, good honey production, queen supercedure after the flow if they choose, etc. I typically run only 12-15 backyard hives for honey production, the others are horizontal hives (another story), and harvest about 1000# of honey each July since 2016. Unless Matt Davey’s method yields an improvement, This works for me. Thanks for the tip!


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## VadenTwin (Aug 31, 2019)

In my opinion hives decide to swarm long before they show signs. I can not claim to be super experienced but my plan is to make sure they have extra space during the winter dearth. I am in Florida so heat retention is not as much an issue. Even in colder areas bees can handle the extra space. Don't think of it like heating your house. They heat the comb around the ball of bees, not the whole hive. They live in trees with huge spaces and wide open doors in the winter and do just fine. I also agree that this isn't a sign of bad genetics. Bad genetics are bees that can't handle varroa and other issues without chemicals or bees that are overly protective (mean).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> What is wrong with it is that over time you will populate your apiary with the swarmiest of bees.


You just combine them back and let them young queens to hash it all out.
Get fewer and stronger units too, if no need for too many bees.
The summer and the swarms will eventually end.


Too many queens and bees is a good problem too have.
Easy to fix and many ways to play with.
But not the other way around.

BTW, the OP never specified (unless I missed that) the management situation anyway.
He/she could be just as well running the all units as *single Lang deeps* (you know - all those former swarms).
Kind of an important detail. 
They outgrow small hives in a matter of a month and swarm again - just normal.


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

First of all, swarming is normal. It's the colony's way of reproducing. Allowing colonies to swarm is irresponsible. Field bees spread varroa destructor, deseases and Africanized bees. This is how it's spread. Swarm Control is covered in the following link. http://www.uoguelph.ca/honeybee/videos.shtml


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

The 2nd from the last is a good video on controlling swarming along with some other stuff I prepared for our bee club. 
1. The Life Cycle of The Honey Bee Queen. DIY Gardening & Better Living (3:02 Min.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94NpquPswZw
2. Honey Bee Behavior Observations Queen, Worker, Drone, Hygienic, Egg, Larvae, Pollen. Frederick Dunn (7:33 Min.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Blqi5qcGlE
3. How to tell fast if virgin queen is mated yet. Barnyard Bees. (8:12 Min.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XynZm9iNT_Y&t=1s
4. Where is the queen? Listen closely and you will find her. Barnyard Bees. (8:34 Min.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS1NcgIHREw
5. How the bees behave when they don't accept a new queen bee. Zaur Man. (3:43 Min.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQJ8bJj1XIs
6. How bees behave when they accept a new queen bee. Zaur Man. (5:06 Min.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YTFV7B0b6k
7. Queen laying eggs. Barnyard Bees (3:52 Min.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a59XHYb0l3U
8. How to stop your hive from swarming. Little Bits Honey Bees Joe May. (24:33 Min.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtH6AQ_6JLE
9. Park Talley - Killing a Hot Bee Hive. (6:19 Min.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38VG_9S5ISU


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

TehachapiGal said:


> First of all, swarming is normal. ....


Indeed, Gal!
Hahaha...


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Here is the link to the OSBN method (Opening the Sides of the Brood Nest):
http://daveybees.wikidot.com/openingthesides

Essentually it's about maintaining Wax Making during Swarm Season from 3 weeks before it starts.

This is done by ensuring 2 frames of Partial or Full Sheets of Foundation are available in Brood Boxes throughout Swarm Season.

A Partial Sheet of Foundation is used to trigger Wax making because it crates a hole in the Brood Nest, which the bees will want to fill with comb.

The new frames are placed on the outside edge of the Brood Nest (not the Brood Box). Outside frames are moved to the middle of a new box, above the Brood Nest.


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## VadenTwin (Aug 31, 2019)

Gal et al

I only keep "field" bees because of their resistance to varroa and other diseases. The main cause of Varroa becoming such a problem is when we (humans) treat a hive it doesn't kill all the Varroa. The ones that survive are the stronger ones which make stronger babies and so on... and so on. It's nothing unique in nature. Parasites will always exist naturally and coexists with their host without wiping them out. That is until humans try to control them (poorly). It all starts with the egg that is selected to be a queen. There is a reason bees pick a certain egg to make a queen. We "humans" think it's OK to go grab any egg, willy nilly, and make a queen. this creates weak queens that make weak bees. As soon as someone tell me they are grafting queens, i write them off as a contributor to the problem. 

Sorry to go off topic on this thread. I'm not a tree huger/duck scrubber, but feral bees and survival of the fittest are the way to correct the woes of bees. Commercial bees will eventually succumb to man made issues and diseases. "field" bees are significantly more robust.


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

Thank you for posting. George Imire discussed how to avert swarming along the same lines. I totally forgot until reading your method. 
http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/
1999 
March - How Good Is Your Swarming Knowledge? 

I apologize for being cranky about swarming. I live in central California along a freeway where commercial bee semis come through in caravans in late January on their way to the almond groves to in and around Bakersfield and up to Northern Californa. The bees are fed early and ready to meet the AG requirements for having 8 full frame of brood in each box. The semis are covered but some manage to swarm at the local truck stops. Some of those swarms are Africanized and us local beekeepers end up with hot hives. We've euthanized 2 hives in the last few years because of the liability of having aggressive hives. Our pets, neighbors, horses, people working on the well were all getting buzzed and stung outside.


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

Yunzow said:


> As an alternate option, you could just let them swarm and catch the swarms. Lazutin "Keeping Bees with a Smile"


I did something like that this spring, I let ( allowed, didn't stop) a colony swarm, then caught the swarm, found the queen and caged her, put a piece of newspaper on top of the hive, then a honey box (drawn comb) , dumped the swarm(without queen) in the honey box and let them combine on their own. That hive did not swarm again and I got a good amount of honey from it.


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## VadenTwin (Aug 31, 2019)

It is easier to sell bad news than good news and the media likes to sell news. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I don't believe most of what I hear on Network news channels. Below is a poor quality recording of a great talk this year by Davis Peck. I also enclosed the paper he references by Thomas Seeley. I know many bee keepers that haul their bees to California for the Almond harvest. I laugh at them when they complain about Varroa and let them know what they do exacerbates the problem. These swarms at truck stops are also not feral bees but the same commercially weak bees. I would never kill a swarm of bees, but I also would never throw them in one of my hives. They are weak man made bees. Catching swarms is a crap shoot and you can never know their origin. That's why I allow and promote survival of the fittest. If a hive dies, be it from Varroa or any of the many other issue, it was weak and had poor genetics. I hope you will watch the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs16wQljdpQ

https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2007/01/m6063.pdf


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## C. Scott Taylor (Dec 12, 2015)

AHudd said:


> SWARMING
> ITS CONTROL AND PREVENTION by L. E. Snelgrove. You can download a free PDF.
> 
> Here is a link to a pdf of the original text:
> https://ia800902.us.archive.org/2/i... and Prevention by L. E. Snelgrove (L935).pdf


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I see some logic problems with stating that swarming reflex is somehow bad genetics: similarly having problems coping with varroa = bad genetics? These are creatures whose behaviours have brought them through millions of years and now are a bit stymied by recent man made conditions: Parasite forms transported across oceans from one continent to another and actually millions of colonies placed together within feet of each, other which is many orders of magnitude greater concentration than what the organism evolved to cope with.

Let's at least acknowledge it for what it is! Swarming is inconvenient for me and varroa is another inconvenience that I can easily live with. Perhaps the bee is doing a wonderful job of resisting our blundering attempts to coerce it to alter its ways.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

:thumbsup:

Alex


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

:applause:

As far as other introduced pests, the bees have "learned" how to deal with SHB pretty effectively.

Not sure I would want to give that up in favor of a bee that refused to follow the #1 biological imperative.


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

VadenTwin said:


> It is easier to sell bad news than good news and the media likes to sell news. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I don't believe most of what I hear on Network news channels. Below is a poor quality recording of a great talk this year by Davis Peck. I also enclosed the paper he references by Thomas Seeley. I know many bee keepers that haul their bees to California for the Almond harvest. I laugh at them when they complain about Varroa and let them know what they do exacerbates the problem. These swarms at truck stops are also not feral bees but the same commercially weak bees. I would never kill a swarm of bees, but I also would never throw them in one of my hives. They are weak man made bees. Catching swarms is a crap shoot and you can never know their origin. That's why I allow and promote survival of the fittest. If a hive dies, be it from Varroa or any of the many other issue, it was weak and had poor genetics. I hope you will watch the video.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs16wQljdpQ
> 
> https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2007/01/m6063.pdf


 You are wrong. I know the origin of the swarms that I catch. Never say never.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Selecting a bee that shows reluctance to swarm is probably not the greatest trait to develop for bees in general. Granted, I don't know exactly how much we as beekeepers can "move the needle" on evolutionary development of honey bees. But, at least theoretically, placing selective pressures on the European Honey Bee to reduce swarming, while at the same time, AHB are dominating their terrain, at least in part, _*because of their frequent swarming tendency*_, is likely a very bad combination for people in my neck of the wood.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

beemandan said:


> Simply because a bee colony swarms doesn’t imply that it has ‘bad genes’. Swarming isn’t driven by crowding. Crowding contributes but isn’t the driver alone. I have any number of hives swarm even with empty comb. Swarming is a reproductive event. Every successful species has reproduction high on its list of genetic traits. Bees included.
> There are times when I open a hive in spring and find a number of capped swarm cells, a number of open swarm cells with a larva floating in a sea of royal jelly and a number of newly made swarm cells with an egg in each. These hives were heading for multiple swarms. After three swarms the colony is unlikely to recover. This sort of excessive swarming surely qualifies as the product of ‘bad genes’.
> In my experience the single most important thing a beekeeper can do is make sure that the colony is headed by a young queen. The younger, the better. At that point, make sure that the hive doesn’t get overcrowded and the likelihood of it issuing a swarm is low.
> Just my opinion based on my experience.


I disagree, Swarming is a reproductive trait. If we "breed it out, bees will perish. They swarm because they wish to . Making them wish not to is the issue here IMO
GG


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Gray Goose said:


> I disagree, Swarming is a reproductive trait.


Maybe you can go back and read my entire post. Like the part where I said 'Swarming is a reproductive event.'


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## jnqpblk (Apr 7, 2015)

I'd suggest 1st, that you determine you are not causing the swarming. A/the main reason for swarming is over crowding. ie. Make darn sure they have more than enough room, specifically a fair amount of empty cells, both for storing the surplus coming in, and for queenie to be laying. Bare foundation to be built out does not count to the bees as swarm preventing space. Me, I do double deep brood. That nearly always takes care of queenie's laying capacity. When drones begin to be made in spring, that is my signal I need consider throwing on the supers, as the hive has gobs coming in and if I want some, I better give 'em more space for it/mine.

"If" you are, say, attempting to maintain a single deep brood chamber, that alone can/should be enough to continually set off swarming. During the build up season, they simply need more space than that deep, or they'll simply continue to swarm, as you are describing.

And, as has been mentioned by others, doing a dinky "fake swarm" split of queenie and 2-3 frames is all that is necessary to leave the mother hive producing through their queenlessness/requeening, and you are able to prevent the swarm, and double hive numbers.

Staying ahead of the bee's overcrowding is the major swarm prevention. Once they start prep to swarm, that places you in "oh crap!" crisis mode, that you need to simply avoid from the start.

The earliest sign of a swarm is drone availability. I will not say it absolutely won't ever happen, but 99.999% of the time, a hive will not swarm without having started drones in the spring. So a hive coming out of winter won't swarm at least till after they begin making drones. 

Last, I'll just mention it is the Africanized strain that tends to swarm/abscond excessively, and "you" won't likely stop that.


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## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

This past season my focus was honey, not splits. I used Ian Stepplers method, more or less. I let them fill a deep, added a second deep of drawn comb. Once that got close to full I shook them all down into the bottom deep and gave 4-5 frames of empty drawn comb there. QE went on at this time. A week or two later I pulled capped frames of brood from the bottom box and hung them above the excluder. Most hives gave up swarming by this point, but a few still tried. Once they had a few active urn cells, I made a small split into a nuc with the original queen. I was able to pull frames of brood from the nuc to supplement the production hive she came from while they raised a new queen. I got great honey yield this year, and was able to use the couple of pulled queens to fix issues in other hives. I made no new hives to overwinter, and have new queens in most hives. 
I will second that they did not seem to want to draw new comb with this method. They just ignored foundation and foundation less frames.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

The Steppler method (run the bees in 1 deep brood chamber until mid spring, add a deep with drawn comb, once the bees hatch out, remove second deep) has a lot in common with the Oh Henry method (see https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...ho3_Aqa_OzXEwv or google Jones, Henry A radical cure for the swarming habit of bees).

The Oh Henry method applies to hives run as a single deep, not as a double deep. He was beekeeping in the 1890s, when the Langstroth hive was traditionally run as a single deep. In short, the method is as follows: all capped brood save 2 combs is un-capped, right when the honey flow starts. Yes, this kills the brood. This is not the same as cutting out all the brood in a double hive. It is repeated 15 days later. Hives preparing to swarm, with capped queen cells, cease and desist upon experiencing this treatment. That's pretty powerful.

When bees are run in a single, they often have a slightly different brood pattern. I have often seen all stages on all combs -and I did not see many times with combs that were solid capped brood with minimal honey stores in the corners. With double deeps, or even my Dadant deep 12 inch frames, I see only 2 stages at a time - eggs and larvae, or larvae and capped brood, or capped brood and eggs. Not typically all 3 on many frames.

So the author was uncapping more like half of 5 frames, since 2 were left alone. Remember, that's out of 10 frames total, not 20 like is typically used now.

This method is ideal for those running bees purely for honey, and relying on supercedure events to replace queens. Comb honey producers in particular must operate their hives in a very crowded manner, more so than we do when we operate our hives for extracting honey. 

I would never use this method. I'd rather give those hives drawn comb, or a mix of drawn and undrawn, and use the capped brood to make overwintering nucs to sell for next year, or for queen rearing. 

But it gives me an idea for trying for comb honey.... So, 40% of the space is opened up as drawn but empty comb, in the Oh Henry method. I would take the capped brood, put it ABOVE the honey supers, which would be above the bottom brood chamber. Gotta check for queen cells after 5 days. This is more work than just uncapping 5-6 frames of capped brood, but it's what I would do. I'm an inefficient beekeeper.


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## Clairmont (Jun 5, 2013)

crofter said:


> I see some logic problems with stating that swarming reflex is somehow bad genetics: similarly having problems coping with varroa = bad genetics? These are creatures whose behaviours have brought them through millions of years and now are a bit stymied by recent man made conditions: Parasite forms transported across oceans from one continent to another and actually millions of colonies placed together within feet of each, other which is many orders of magnitude greater concentration than what the organism evolved to cope with.
> 
> Let's at least acknowledge it for what it is! Swarming is inconvenient for me and varroa is another inconvenience that I can easily live with. Perhaps the bee is doing a wonderful job of resisting our blundering attempts to coerce it to alter its ways.


Hear, hear! Learned a lot just reading this thread though. Thanks to the contributors. c


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

Started beekeeping in 1964 with Carniolans which at the time had the reputation of swarming very frequently. Consequently was able to build up to 350 hives very quickly. I had swarms hanging from branches every time I would visit an apiary. Excellent bees otherwise. Sue Cobey started working of getting rid of the swarming tendency. The results were *The New World Carniolan Queen*. There are presently both types on the market. Change queen breeder and get yourself some *New World Carniolans*. OMTCW


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## VadenTwin (Aug 31, 2019)

Thanks C. Scott,

Still reading the article you posted. It is great so far.

Frank,

Well stated... though I still believe in genetics and varroa resistance. Check out any article on the Arnot forest bees. They are far removed from mans manipulations and handle varroa. IMO, because Man has not selectively bred them or randomly grafted queens from eggs that a bee would never pick for queen rearing. Commercial and main stream bee keepers that try to control hives are making Varroa stronger and bees weaker.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I dont think they really are doing much in the way of permanent genetic change to the bees but the representative specimens we see the most of are the fertility queens. Good for producing oodles of bees for the nucleus puppy mills and making frame counts for pollination contracts. They are well suited for that but those habits present a dream world for Varroa. I dont think the varroa is getting stronger, but the circumstances guarantee an excellent environment for them and their hitchhiking viruses. Just about exactly as would be expected to develop.

I wonder if it is even possible to develop any organism that would remain oblivious to such un natural conditions. We have removed many of the barriers that in nature limit the spread of disease and pestilence.

Anyways this amounts only to a hand wringing rant.


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

I treat for mites. In fact I use the oxalic acid shop towel method and have had excellent results in having healthy hives year around. If a beekeeper doesn't treat their colonies in fall the colonies will be dead in spring. Many of the beekeepers in our club have apple orchards and sell their crops and honey at Farmer's Markets. Others rent their bees out to pollinate crops locally. They all adhere to regimens of treating for mites. Varroa destructor is a serious problem in California. About 25% of U.S. produce is grown in the state. One year my favorite hive was diseased with Deformed Wing Virus when I opened the hive in spring. They did recover but not before another hive showed evidence of it too. I treated them with 2:1 sugar syrup to boost their health. The hive is still healthy. One of the beekeepers is Journeyman beekeeper and studied with honeybee experts including some from Bayer. On the topic of pesticides and herbicides, they play a major role in weakening pollinators. They're sprayed around RR tracks, roadsides, pastures, windfarms, farms, fruit and vegetable farms. All use various pesticides.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

VadenTwin said:


> Gal et al
> 
> I only keep "field" bees because of their resistance to varroa and other diseases. The main cause of Varroa becoming such a problem is when we (humans) treat a hive it doesn't kill all the Varroa. The ones that survive are the stronger ones which make stronger babies and so on... and so on. It's nothing unique in nature. Parasites will always exist naturally and coexists with their host without wiping them out. That is until humans try to control them (poorly). It all starts with the egg that is selected to be a queen. There is a reason bees pick a certain egg to make a queen. We "humans" think it's OK to go grab any egg, willy nilly, and make a queen. this creates weak queens that make weak bees. As soon as someone tell me they are grafting queens, i write them off as a contributor to the problem.
> 
> Sorry to go off topic on this thread. I'm not a tree huger/duck scrubber, but feral bees and survival of the fittest are the way to correct the woes of bees. Commercial bees will eventually succumb to man made issues and diseases. "field" bees are significantly more robust.


"We "humans" think it's OK to go grab any egg, willy nilly, and make a queen." +1 IMO this is part of the "problem" As well
GG


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## VadenTwin (Aug 31, 2019)

Thanks Goose,

I am just of the mind set we should let bees and nature work this out and stop coddling weak bees. Just because it is what we have done for years and what the mass majority does, doesn't make it the best way. People tend to get locked into mindsets of what they were taught and have experienced, and nobody(most) seems to be willing to go through the work or pain of allowing nature to fix it. Nature does not design a parasite that wipes out its host. That's not a good design for the host or parasite. Nature creates a balance and when man tries to manipulate that balance it tend to have the opposite effect.

Nature could care less about what the majority of humans believe to be best for bees.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

dup


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

TehachapiGal said:


> .... If a beekeeper doesn't treat their colonies in fall the colonies will be dead in spring. ...


Of course, some of us here demonstrated different results.
For sure the "dead in spring" is not a 100% guarantee (just as "alive in spring" is not a 100% guarantee).
Please qualify.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

VadenTwin said:


> Thanks C. Scott,
> 
> Still reading the article you posted. It is great so far.
> 
> ...


I have read about the Arnot bees, and what is apparent is that is a very small population with not many hives per square mile. Most of us keep bees with far more bees in the area than is the case of the Arnot bees.

And therein lies much of the difference, IMO. If hives were crashing due to mite bombs in the neighborhood, my opinion is that the feral Arnot bees would likely crash also.

Other statements by Dan to the effect of queen age on swarming tendency very much match my experience. A hive with a young queen is far less likely to swarm than is one with a second year queen. I have seen this to be true over and over again. Crowding in the hive certainly promotes swarming also, but it's hives with older queens that want to swarm.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Gino your appraisal is likely close to bang on, but the telling of the story of _the hearty feral bees of the Arnot Forest_ is so much more dramatic !


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Gino45 said:


> I have read about the Arnot bees, and what is apparent is that is a very small population with not many hives per square mile.


In addition the ferals in the Arnot forest typically inhabit a relatively small cavity. As a result they are prone to swarm multiple times each season. 
I believe that Seeley has suggested that beekeepers who wanted to remain treatment free and aren’t particularly interested in honey production could keep their bees in a single 10 frame box and allow them to swarm freely and get similar results.


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

GregV said:


> Of course, some of us here demonstrated different results.
> For sure the "dead in spring" is not a 100% guarantee (just as "alive in spring" is not a 100% guarantee).
> Please qualify.


There are people in my local club that believe like Teha-Gal. I have 10 and 8 frame Langs., nucs, and horizontals with 30 deep frames. I'm not a "treatment free" beekeeper, but I am on my third year of not having to, I just started seeing fewer and fewer mites, and the ones I found were missing legs, until now I see only the occasional one, and it is usually dead. So my opinion is , the bees did it. Fingers crossed.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

VadenTwin said:


> I'm not a tree huger/duck scrubber. but feral bees and survival of the fittest are the way to correct the woes of the bees. ....
> 
> People tend to get locked into mindsets of what they were taught and have experienced, and nobody(most) seems to be willing to go through the work or pain of allowing nature to fix it.


In theory, this would be a wonderful solution to the problem. The question is, how do we get there on a grand scale. Looking at the broader picture we have to consider the ramifications for commercial beekeepers. Their families livelihood is totally dependent upon income from beekeeping. 

Would we be willing to give up half, or perhaps all, of our family's net income for several years in a row while the survival of the fittest correction takes place. How can we ask them to do that. 

It's a noble goal and nice to talk about, but I've not heard anyone present an actual plan to reach that point without creating a major collapse in commercial pollination and honey production sectors. Not picking on you, just asking to look at the bigger picture. I'm not so sure beekeepers are not "willing" to try and fix the problem, but how?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Very to the point observation Mike. The solution has to be _do able_. Vaden is correct about our actions being the major source of the problem but like the proverbial "slippery slope" or "unwringing a bell" going back is nearly impossible without a major reset. Some calamitous happening. Think of the weather conditions and monocrop food supply, political issues etc., that lead to the great potato famine in Ireland in the 1840's: milllions died!

A multifaceted problem usually does not have a simple solution.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

To the op: you do not need to split to combat swarming. Practice and ask beeks in your area what they do and when. If your mites are not under control the swarming may help get there. If you don't have enough extra comb it is more difficult. Good luck! How long have you been keeping bees?
Mike, if memory serves, Kirk Webster published an article in a journal a whole back about how commercials could switch to treatment free. I don't remember details (try googling it, or does someone have a link?) but I believe it seemed feasable, and at least applied to a small commercial, with a few thousand colonies. Not sure if it would work for the really big guys but that's because I can't remember deets!
Happy beekeeping everyone!


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## VadenTwin (Aug 31, 2019)

The best way I could think of is doing the survival of the fittest. I can't speak with years of experience but from what I have read and heard...

People that treat for varroa and other issues with chemicals average a yearly loss of 25%-30%.
People that go treatment free and/or survival of the fittest lose about 35%-45%.

I know that's almost half the your hives but not a big deviation from treating. When you add in the expense and labor of treating, I believe your fiscal cost would be back to, or at least close, to what you have now.

That's just to deal with chemical treating piece. The other issue comes in with queen rearing. Bees pick a specific egg for a specific reason that no one knows why. Humans going in and picking an egg to make a queen is not natural and this (IMO) produces weak queens. Yes, they may have a great brood pattern, and make hives that produce a lot of honey, but it is impossible to get all the great stuff without a bad trait. 

Going back to the original subject of this thread, which I apologize for dragging down a rabbit hole is...

Let bees swarm, it's what they do. Its how they create more bees and hives. I have no problem with splitting to avoid losing a great box of bees but you lose the genetics if you throw a reared or mailed queen in there. Do a walk away split instead and make sure both boxes have brood. Then let them make their own queen.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

VadenTwin said:


> People that treat for varroa and other issues with chemicals average a yearly loss of 25%-30%.
> People that go treatment free and/or survival of the fittest lose about 35%-45%.


Not sure where you found these numbers, maybe it's an average of data collected from multiple beekeeping sectors. 

Personally, I think that 30% losses are unacceptable if treating for mites. If that many hives are being lost then there is some other problem, either with the bees or beekeeper error.

Treatment free loses seem to vary quite a bit depending on the region where the bees are kept. I tried my best to go the treatment free route some time back for a couple years and ended up closer to 80-90% annual losses, and the survivors were weak and non-productive. As much as I wanted to, it just didn't make sense for me to continue down that road. I'm glad that some are successful at it, wasn't working for me here.


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## VadenTwin (Aug 31, 2019)

That is a bummer it didn't work for you. My numbers are from a recording of a conference presentation. I will try to find it.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Mike Gillmore said:


> In theory, this would be a wonderful solution to the problem. The question is, how do we get there on a grand scale. Looking at the broader picture we have to consider the ramifications for commercial beekeepers. Their families livelihood is totally dependent upon income from beekeeping.
> 
> Would we be willing to give up half, or perhaps all, of our family's net income for several years in a row while the survival of the fittest correction takes place. How can we ask them to do that.
> 
> It's a noble goal and nice to talk about, but I've not heard anyone present an actual plan to reach that point without creating a major collapse in commercial pollination and honey production sectors. Not picking on you, just asking to look at the bigger picture. I'm not so sure beekeepers are not "willing" to try and fix the problem, but how?


Big picture. Survival of the fittest applies to Beekeeping Operations too. And the operations that are successful being Treatment-Free will continue despite what others are doing! 

To OP: Yes! Know your average swarm start dates and flow dates. Plenty of room before average swarm cell start dates and keep Wax builders (8-18 day old bees) depleted.

Core broodnest getting backfilled and wax builders primed is the major precursor to cast swarms.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

From BeeInformedPartnership preliminary results from respondents who hold about 12% of the nations bees:
"During the 2018-2019 winter (1 October 2018 – 1 April 2019), an estimated 37.7% of managed honey bee colonies in the United States were lost"
Treatment Free keeps are often able to stay on par with treaters in their area. For me 30% is an economic threshold. Some years are better, some not.
Happy beekeeping everybody!


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## VadenTwin (Aug 31, 2019)

I can't seem to find the video or who presented the number, but I spefically remember there was only 10%-15% difference in survival of treated hive vs untreated. Id however find a talk by Michael bush that discusses alot of what is in this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3qniBf7_U0


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Amibusiness said:


> Treatment Free keeps are often able to stay on par with treaters in their area.


Far from true here. Where did you get this?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Far from true here also. Personal observation, beeks that have a few years of experience and treat properly have far less than the touted 30-35% losses. And TF beeks in my area lose far more than the 35-45% claimed. Mike's experience is more in line with what I have seen here. My hat's off to those TF beeks that do have low losses. Your stock may be the future of beekeeping.

So, it would seem that TF beekeeper would want their bees to swarm often to achieve area saturation with their genetic stock. Likewise, beeks that treat may want to prevent swarming by whatever means possible. 

I treat, so I perform spring artificial swarms around April 1st. Around May 1st, I sell the nucs I created with their proven overwintered queen.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

There is also the issue of my selfishness. I am not a beekeeper because I want to save the bees. I am a beekeeper because I want to keep them, enjoy them, watch them, breed queens, etc. I want them to entertain me. I see them as an interesting challenge and a never ending adult science experiment. I am 50 years old, my father was dead when he was 55. I am not of "the fittest" stock and nature has been trying to kill off my line of people early for many generations now.

I don't want to spend my remaining years watching bees die and hoping they adapt and overcome. If you do, then I support your efforts and sincerely wish you success. I think it is noble work.

I am starting a Frankenstein yard this year, away from my other yards, just to see what some of my queens can do on their own. More of a curiosity than a survival contest though.

I am weary of the debate. We all do this for different reasons. Enjoy your bees and your reasoning. I will enjoy mine.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

https://bip2.beeinformed.org/survey/ 

go here - you can select the state of interest, years of interest, method of mite treatment of interest...or lack of treatment. Listed as "used any management product."

backyard treatment free beeks fare worse, lost 51% nationwide last year, and treating beeks lost 38% nationwide last year. 

TF southern beeks lost 37%, treating southern beeks lost 23% last year.

TF northern beeks lost 58%, treating northern beeks lost 41%. Last year. 

Of the people who responded to the survey. Slightly different results for "varroa treatment". Not sure why. But, you get the gist.

I have not found splitting or swarm departure to be an adequate mite control method - I lost half of my hives to mite at the end of my TF experience. And they were all splits or cast swarms, nuc sized at the end of swarm season.


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## VadenTwin (Aug 31, 2019)

Thanks for the numbers confirmation. I knew I read or watched where it was only 10%-15%. I also agree with PSM and I am the same age. My father also died in his mid 50s but not from natural causes. This is the most awesome adult experiment I have ever done and I do hope everyone enjoys their bees as much as I enjoy mine. 

Great conversation, even if it did go off topic.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

VadenTwin said:


> I can't seem to find the video or who presented the number, but I spefically remember there was only 10%-15% difference in survival of treated hive vs untreated.


I have also read this, but it has not been my experience either. 

Mid Summer of my second season, one of my three, highly touted treatment free colonies began failing. I shook them out and used their resources to bolster the other two and began treating. So my first Winter I had zero losses. My second Winter we can say I lost thirty-three percent. Since I have been treating I have gained each year. I have twenty-four as of today.

I have eliminated some for being overly defensive and a few for being poor performers which may not have made it through Winter. Even counting these my losses are less than ten percent per year. I have one that I am going to eliminate this Spring because they are swarmy. Do I count them as a loss.

It is hard to understand reported losses because we don't know what accounting methods are used. After all, I could say I have had zero losses, only gains, except season two.

Alex


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

I must admit that my "evidence" is totally anecdotal, far from national stats. Tf beek with over 1000 colonies mostly has better rate than state average. Another with over 600 did much better than state average last year. Some folks on this forum. I take them at their word. I am not opposed to other beeks keeping bees how they see fit. Obviously we should be aware and respectful of our neighbors: fall deadouts due to mites can be a risk, as can importing foreign bees with foreign pathogens. I would like local beeks to work together creating local pockets rather than transporting bees needlessly (ie packages). Obviously, polination contracts will need to be filled for many more years so some movement is going to have to happen but this could be more scientifically organised to allow for local adaptations to happen and be valued, and not imediately diluted....
Another anecdote: after I had higher then normal losses a friend asked if I'd still be tf. The next winter he had high losses and I did not.... So he still treats and I do not. I do not respect him any less for it and hope he reciprocated.
Happy beekeeping everyone!


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

JWPalmer said:


> beeks that have a few years of experience and treat properly have far less than the touted 30-35% losses. And TF beeks in my area lose far more than the 35-45% claimed.


Adees lost how many colonies past winter?

Another thing, back in 2006. There was around 2200 operations taking around 1.5 million colonies to Almonds. Down to around 1600 operations taking 2 million colonies. And with projected growth of Maturing new Orchards the demand for colonies will go up. What happened to the 600 operations no longer in that picture? Still have bees or went under? How many years can Adees sustain 50,000 hive count losses?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

psm1212 said:


> There is also the issue of my selfishness. I am not a beekeeper because I want to save the bees. I am a beekeeper because I want to keep them, enjoy them, watch them, breed queens, etc. I want them to entertain me. I see them as an interesting challenge and a never ending adult science experiment. I am 50 years old, my father was dead when he was 55. I am not of "the fittest" stock and nature has been trying to kill off my line of people early for many generations now.
> 
> I don't want to spend my remaining years watching bees die and hoping they adapt and overcome. If you do, then I support your efforts and sincerely wish you success. I think it is noble work.
> 
> ...


+1 we all have our reasons.....agree, we all march to the beat of a different drummer.
GG


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Hey Trish, is it possible to pull the hobbyist and sideliner numbers? You know, the 90% of total beekeepers that represent only 8% or so of total hives. Due to the huge number of hives, commercial operator hive mortality rates may actually serve to dampen the results seen by those of us that keep bees non-commercially. I lost 50%, 3/6 my first year trying treatment free. (TF for me at that time was mites? What are mites?) After the second one died I got a little wiser and put Apivar in them and only lost one more. From the three that made it, I increased to 16 hives and had 0% overwinter losses when treated with OAV. I am going into late fall now with 20 hives and 8 nucs, having sold three and losing three other hives due to a failed requeening after a swarm (and PPB).

And that rolls us back to the topic. Trying to control swarming without a spring split is difficult for a weekend beekeeper. Fail, and your hive swarms. You lose bees and the possibility of losing the hive increases as mated queens only average about a 75% return rate. Split, and you still have a queen you can reintroduce a month later if things don't go quite as planned.


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

I think Mike you have answered your own question. Perhaps this is up to all who are willing to suffer the losses, and when enough resistant bee colonies exist queens could be A.I. just like they do now for other things. As this grows there would hopefully come a time when even large commercial operations could get enough queens and packages that their losses would be tolerable.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

> just remove the queen with a few frames and some bees - small split.


That makes a lot of sense now especially if you already have capped swarm cells. Last year, I removed the frames with cells on them and they still swarmed. Removing the queen would fix that.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Not necessarily, gnor. If there are enough bees (relative to space) for an after swarm, the first (few) virgin(s) to emerge will still swarm. If you have cells and you don't want to split with them you can
1. Remove queen with enough brood/food for a split
2. Leave colony tight for a few days until first cells are capped (so they are well fed) then 
3. put a super of comb in between brood boxes to relieve congestion before new queens emerge. 1 week window....
I do this as a quick way to increase my odds. I don't like trying to destroy every queen cell (or all but 2...) as invariably I miss a runty one in the corner somewhere and wind up with a dinky queen. This would result in the same productivity of a swarmed colony plus the added work of me trying to change what the bees have done. When this happens I might as well have let them swarm....
So even if you remove the old queen, you still need to keep an eye on the other factors that contribute to swarming....
Happy beekeeping everyone


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## 123989 (Jul 30, 2018)

I for one am not doing anything to prevent mine from swarming. If 
they swarm I will lose some production it is true but I will gain more
bees. If you split them all you are doing is making a swarm on your own
terms. Swarming is not a bad thing. I have ten hives and that is all I want
at this time. If I gain more that that I will be putting them in nucs and selling 

them.


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

I hope those swarms aren't Africanized. Here in Central California hive management is key to preventing hot hives. Nothing is more demoralizing than having to euthanize a hot hive.

http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/ This site was developed to capture George Imire's Pink Pages. He was a master beekeeper. You might want to find his notes on swarming. He wrote many article on the topic.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Prior to and during swarm season, prevent the bees from forming a solid band of honey immediately over the brood area by removing every other honey frame and replacing it with an empty frame. Or let them swarm.


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## 123989 (Jul 30, 2018)

We really don't have to worry about Africanized bees here in East Tennessee, so that is a non issue.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Riverderwent said:


> Prior to and during swarm season, prevent the bees from forming a solid band of honey immediately over the brood area by removing every other honey frame and replacing it with an empty frame. Or let them swarm.


This is not my experience. I quite like a band of honey near top of top brood box. Once I get this and nectar/honey in first honey super, I can remove the queen excluder. I find an excluder to be a significant cause of getting nectar in the brood nest. I then focus on maintaining storage space for honey and thereby keeping the brood nest open. Add honey supers and extract weekly(return wet supers to hive) during peak of the flow.

Band of honey generally keeps the queen in the brood boxes.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Check out Wally Shore's description of a Snelgrove Board ( England ) and it's many uses. I used it last successfully. I looked forward to using it htis year but - believe it or not - no swarm cells with 8 foraging hives. I guess they were too busy filling honey supers this year. I think I will not be so lucky next year. * http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/The-Many-Uses-Of-A-Snelgrove-Board-by-Wally-Shaw.pdf *


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

enjambres said:


> Of course I don't pull frames this often, I just tip up every brood box and look under it. That will tell me whether we're still on _my_ plan or whether I need to slap a SB on them to interrupt _their_ plan. There is no substitute for very close monitoring.
> 
> Nancy


Nancy, would you be willing to share what exactly you look for when you tip up every brood box and look under it?

I assume this means you look under_ every_ box, but if you could share what specifically you look for, and how you proceed depending on what you see - I'd be appreciative.

Thanks.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Worth reading Wally Shaw for Swarm prevention and increases plus other options for managing bees. I cannot find queens, old eyes, so I move all brood and queen cells above a QE early in the day. Then, late in the day, remove the QE and install the SB plus syrup feed as there are very few foragers above the SB. SB approach allows continuing foraging so put on some supers below the SB too. 

THE MANY USES OF A SNELGROVE BOARD PART 1 – AN INTRODUCTION TO L. E. SNELGOVE AND HIS BOARD (by M.W. Shaw, Anglesey Beekeepers’ Association)


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## Spice_snow (Dec 29, 2019)

username00101 said:


> Question for the experienced beekeepers here. Is it feasible, or at least realistic to expect to prevent swarming without performing a spring split?
> 
> This year in my apiary, swarming was a major issue. I noticed that even hives that I took multiple frames of brood, STILL swarmed.
> 
> ...


Bees are not in the habit of walking over blocked honeycombs.
In the spring it happens that the honeycomb is covered up before the honey frame is put on. As a result, the brood space becomes too small and the bees start to swarm.
What can I do against it !?
Remove some honeycombs from the bees in the brood chamber and hang them in the honey room. Once the young bees have hatched, these honeycombs can be removed and the honey room can be refilled with honeycombs. who is afraid that he has lost because the honey room is too small, put a frame on top. An examination for queen cells is still mandatory!

I am sorry for my bad english me is A man vrom Bawarian (Germany)


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

What spice snow is describing, in case you are having trouble following the translation, is removing brood comb with capped bands of honey to the super, replacing them with empty comb, and allowing the brood to emerge.from the super instead. Once the brood has emerged, he recommends putting empty drawn comb back in the super.

This manipulation helps to create more laying space for the queen by not confining her with a band of capped honey.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

trishbookworm said:


> The Steppler method (run the bees in 1 deep brood chamber until mid spring, add a deep with drawn comb, once the bees hatch out, remove second deep) has a lot in common with the Oh Henry method (see https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...ho3_Aqa_OzXEwv or google Jones, Henry A radical cure for the swarming habit of bees).


The above employ the same principle as used in Russian/Ukrainian 6-frame stacks which return a commercial honey harvest, yet do not swarm due to their brood nest size restriction. So - same outcome, but without the slaughter (in the case of Henry Jones' method).

Not being a Russian speaker I only know the basics of this technique - Greg is the guy to discuss this with for the fine details.
LJ


is


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Thank you. It went over my head until you clarified.

I use this technique as well with my all-mediums set up during the swarm season. Frames starting to be backfilled that still have some sealed brood are moved up into the supers and are replaced in the brood nest with drawn brood comb. Helps to keep the queen busy and the brood nest open.



JWPalmer said:


> What spice snow is describing, in case you are having trouble following the translation,


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Using the double screen division board like in Post #111 also accomplishes separating a great part of the capped and open brood away from the foragers. I think that is the common basic factor of these methods. I do it when I see 6 frames of mostly capped brood. Some people manage to work closer to the line, but in my short season a swarm is nearly a total loss of production for that season. Destroying queen cells is risky as it is easy to miss one.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Putting the brood up above the excluder to emerge and replacing with drawn comb sounds like the basics of Roland's method. With the queen restricted to only one box I dont think much honey gets put in there but even if it did, it would get moved above the excluder. One size box is king in that method.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Thanks for the clarification JW. I thought that's what Spice Snow was getting at but wasn't sure. I am always looking for swarm control methods. Swarms are the thorn in my side and am finding that I really need to up my game. J


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Snelgrove boars? Spring splits? Naaa...

Too much work. Like Bro Adam said: never weaken your hives. I never bleed them or remove old queens. In fact I have four year old queens that produce a lot of honey and still don't swarm. 

You can do this with Buckfast bees. That's because they are not Carnica  and of course they've been selected for low swarm tendencies. 

How do you select for low swarm tendency? That's fairly easy. You do not count the number of swarm cells. No. You observe the queen while swarm cells are build. If the queen continues to lay eggs without any pause although swarm cells are build and cared for, that's the queen you want. 

If you have a queen that shuts down the broodnest once the first swarm cells appear, that's a swarm machine.

Weed out the swarm fever bees. Best way to make beekeeping a bliss. 

The rest is clipping one wing, having a landing board reaching to the ground (so the queen can crawl up again) and looking for swarm cells every two weeks in the season. That's it. It is also helpful to adapt the size of the broodnest to the ability of the queen to lay eggs. I use a follower board in a square Brother Adam hive (Dadant frames) to achieve that.

Start selecting and weeding.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

That's interesting Bernard. Thanks for your post. J


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## Spice_snow (Dec 29, 2019)

Spice_snow said:


> Bees are not in the habit of walking over blocked honeycombs.
> In the spring it happens that the honeycomb is covered up before the honey frame is put on. As a result, the brood space becomes too small and the bees start to swarm.
> What can I do against it !?
> Remove some honeycombs from the bees in the brood chamber and hang them in the honey room. Once the young bees have hatched, these honeycombs can be removed and the honey room can be refilled with honeycombs. who is afraid that he has lost because the honey room is too small, put a frame on top. An examination for queen cells is still mandatory!
> ...


-------------
What I have described is only for spring time. If the beekeeper has missed to set the honey room in time and there is already a honey wreath closed on top of the honeycomb. This honey wreath causes a lock over which the bees do not carry honey and that putting on a honey frame does not make any entry. The lower frame becomes too small and the bees get into a swarm mood. This is not a method but an unwritten bee law! You will find it in every breed of bees.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Agreed Spice_snow.

I use Opening the Sides of the Brood Nest (OSBN) based on the same principles.

My biggest hive this season has drawn, filled and capped 40 deep frames! and the flow is still going.
Just harvested some of it yesterday.
Haven't had issues with swarming when using OSBN.

*During Swarm Season:*

Maintain at least 2 undrawn frames in every box.
Place undrawn frames on the outer edges of the Brood Nest in the Brood Box(es).
Move honey frames up and out of the Brood Box(es).
Start as soon as Drones are being raised.

Have a look at the method here:
http://daveybees.wikidot.com/openingthesides


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