# Feeding Indoor Bees



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

If they were mine and if I had spare frames of honey, that would be my first choice.
If you spread them outdoors near the building and you have plenty of room that would work relatively well. With those temperatures it will be hard for the bees to take the syrup down if they are outdoors.
One beekeeper I know told me he would spread them around in his hotroom, feed them in the hotroom and then back in the building. He would raise the temperature up in the hotroom to facilatate the task for the bees. If memory serves me right it was in the 15-16 C range. That seems warm for the bees. They did this with red lamps. I cannot remember how long it took for the bees to take the syrup down, but it was a 2-3 day task for 600 hives. 
Fondant is a pain to make. Either way, good luck with the task.

Jean-Marc


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

I don't winter bees inside, so take this with a grain of salt, but I do winter a fair number of nucs, some on the very small side.

Jean-Marc has some good comments. To ad, I don't care for fondant either, an alternative we use is mixing in enough water with granulated sugar to make it like wet sand. I then have 2" feeder rims on my nucs. I place a piece of wax paper, paper towel, whatever over the cluster then pack in the damp sugar. It is effectively a cheap candy board. On the mini nucs I can pack on 10 pounds of sugar. The pic below shows the setup. The nuc was packed in early November and the pic was take a week or so ago.


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

Wow! thanks JSL!

Is there any downsides to this? Does it try out? Does it turn to rock? Someone told me that the bees will carry away the granular and not use it up effectively.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

The bees will carry out dry granulated sugar, which is why I wet it and pack it in. The sugar will then dry into a block of sorts and the bees just use it at will. They still have capped honey in the frames below, but as long as temps aren't too cold they will be up feeding on the sugar and storing it down below. The temp in your winter facility should be warm enough to allow the bees to work the sugar.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

2:1 syrup works well to tie bees over until move out. Feed the syrup with a boardman or a bottle and quail feeder attachment. 10C should be warm enough for the bees to find the feeder.

If you do feed the bees syrup, it is probably a good idea to keep the wintering room a little warmer so the bees don't starve in case they were stimulated into brooding. If fact, if your hives are small it is good to run the wintering room in the 8 - 10 C range periodically. Otherwise the bees may feed themselves into a corner and not relocate.


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks Allen,

I sent you a PM.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Brian
Can you post a pic of your winter room monitoring systems ?


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

Ian said:


> Brian
> Can you post a pic of your winter room monitoring systems ?











Is this works, it's the first time I've been successful on this site. This is just a screen shot for the monitoring page on my phone.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Nice
Can you post a pic of your room controlling module ?


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

Here it is. It's in a narrow "control room" so I could get the phone back far enough for a straight shot. Potato storage unit. This thing is slick. You can control everything. Humidity, CO2, fan speed. It also records all data so you can view what happened as far back as you like.


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)




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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I just got internet in my honey facility. 
Do you have this rigged through cell service or Internet?


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

Internet. 
The unit is a touch screen itself (the computer runs windows) and the monitoring program is actually just Internet Explorer. Kudos to Gorman Controls. There are none of my smarts involved here.


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

There is also an Alert App, that gives you notice should something be out of whack.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Did you set it up yourself?


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

Ya. We built everything to their specs based on hives numbers and estimated watts. They then speced CFM needed and such. We had an electrician do the hook ups to the panel though. There were many phone calls to PEI, although they would have come out if we needed. We have 2 buildings set up like this.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I know a potato farmer here very well, I'm going to look into something like this. Your C02 observations interest me. I wonder at what level its lethal and what an extended period of low air exchange registers


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

I'm very aware that you don't need anything like this to successfully winter bees indoors, and many people have pointed that out to me.  The difference with this system is hives per CU ft. You can throw the CAPA numbers out the window. You can untilize the space better with this kind of control since it isn't just based on time, but on actual temps and data. We have singles 8 high in rows on 7 ft centers. 3800 in a 60x40 building.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Who listens to "those" people anyway  lol
Not me !


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

How many CO2/O2/ Humidity/temp sensors do you have per building?


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Interesting thread. The systems sound similar to those used in commercial poultry houses.

On a side not, does anyone have an estimate as to what the yearly cost is to overwinter a colony indoors?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JSL said:


> Interesting thread. The systems sound similar to those used in commercial poultry houses.
> 
> On a side not, does anyone have an estimate as to what the yearly cost is to overwinter a colony indoors?


I actually do not... Basically whatever it costs for hydro to run a bunch of ceiling fans and 2 1/2 hp motors at varying draws, November- April. My building has never required any supplemental heating. So I would peg a few hundred bucks, $5 per colony perhaps? Excluding overhead costs


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Ian said:


> I actually do not... Basically whatever it costs for hydro to run a bunch of ceiling fans and 2 1/2 hp motors at varying draws, November- April. My building has never required any supplemental heating. So I would peg a few hundred bucks, $5 per colony perhaps? Excluding overhead costs


Yeah, I assumed the utility costs, but I was wondering more about the overhead costs. Without opening a can of worms, I assume packages were more economical at one time, but when that changed, indoor wintering became more of a necessity. I have no idea what the costs would be, just wondering if anyone calculated out the long term cost per colony.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

For a smaller operation (less than about 1500) I would say indoor wintering is basically free. Supplemental heating is not required and as Ian said all that is need is a electricity for couple of overhead fans and exhaust fans. $200 - $300 for a winter. The overhead cost need not be very high either if the wintering room is the hot room and extracting area. Really just finding a winter use for space that is required for summer anyways. 

The cost for control and fan setup can vary from a couple of hundred dollars to multiple thousands. In the simplest form the setup consist of a couple of light blocked intakes, fans, and a timer. The timer needs more babysitting to keep temperatures consistent but does a very adequate job if the beekeeper is around for the winter. At the top end the wintering room has controls that monitor a lot things, mixing systems for intake air and cooling in place. Cooling is something most people who wintering indoors consider every spring lol.

With regards to the price of packages, the act of wintering bees (indoors or outdoors) is very inexpensive. The process of getting bees ready for winter and the next honey season is where the expenses are. A quick calculation of cost per hive for my operation is about $75 CAD from the end of one production season to the beginning of another, however, packages would require many of these same expenses. Historical winter survival average for a given operation would greatly influence cost per hive as well.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

B&E said:


> Here it is. It's in a narrow "control room" so I could get the phone back far enough for a straight shot. Potato storage unit. This thing is slick. You can control everything. Humidity, CO2, fan speed. It also records all data so you can view what happened as far back as you like.


Now that is _*slick!*_


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

RAK said:


> How many CO2/O2/ Humidity/temp sensors do you have per building?


CO2 there is one. It's right where the air returns to the intake fan. It's a little hard to explain, but basically fresh air and return air are blended to deliver a constant temp. 4.5c. So the return air is where the C02 and humidity are read, since all air is moving. 

As for temp: outside, plenum (that's the air delivered to the bees) and return are all monitored. The PC makes adjustments based on all the them to keep the setpoint.


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

JSL said:


> Interesting thread. The systems sound similar to those used in commercial poultry houses.
> 
> On a side not, does anyone have an estimate as to what the yearly cost is to overwinter a colony indoors?


Before I spent the dough on retro fitting these 2 buildings I did a little math. If I winter 5% better indoors, it's a two year payback.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JSL said:


> Yeah, I assumed the utility costs, but I was wondering more about the overhead costs. Without opening a can of worms, I assume packages were more economical at one time, but when that changed, indoor wintering became more of a necessity. I have no idea what the costs would be, just wondering if anyone calculated out the long term cost per colony.


That cost could be zero for me as I'm using the hot room as dual use,which would otherwise be empty most of the year. 
My supplemental costs are basically 10 ceiling fans, 2 ventilation fans and two thermostat fan controllers. 

I'm considering investing in the monitoring equipment Brian has mentioned, more for improving my monitoring ability via iPhone. I'm also considering a cooling unit, as Allen mentioned, it's almost March... Top of Mind!!

At a time when I run on almost zero $$$, I run my winter shed manually and with Canadian Tire supplies


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

Ian said:


> That cost could be zero for me as I'm using the hot room as dual use,which would otherwise be empty most of the year.
> My supplemental costs are basically 10 ceiling fans, 2 ventilation fans and two thermostat fan controllers.
> 
> I'm considering investing in the monitoring equipment Brian has mentioned, more for improving my monitoring ability via iPhone. I'm also considering a cooling unit, as Allen mentioned, it's almost March... Top of Mind!!


:thumbsup:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Today my fans are running 100%, 4 degreesC outside, indoor temps holding at 8 degrees


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

Ian said:


> Today my fans are running 100%, 4 degreesC outside, indoor temps holding at 8 degrees


I have one fan and 3800 singles in my larger building. The system can keep it 0.5c above outside temp.


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

But you can hear the fan 1km away. I have a few neighbors who don't like it when we get a warm day.


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

Ian, bring the kiddies to Niagara to see the falls before the bees are out.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

B&E said:


> I have one fan and 3800 singles in my larger building. The system can keep it 0.5c above outside temp.


 The heck with the neighbours ! These are our babies ! lol

What size of fan?
And how big of air intakes?


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

Amen!

22,000 cfm. 
4x6 opening


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts on the costs! It is interesting to see the similarities with other animal industries. In our northern climate, all relative, poultry are packed into commercial houses with densities similar to your bees. Most have no heating capabilities as there is plenty of body mass, but cooling is essential! Reading your concerns about cooling units this time of year reminds me of reading about the old beekeepers that used to winter in the cellar under their house. They were nervous too when early warm days rolled around!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

B&E said:


> Ian, bring the kiddies to Niagara to see the falls before the bees are out.


Maybe just the wife and I  lol


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

MANN LAKE has the product that you might consider.
Regards,
Ernie

Pro Winter Patties

Our new Pro Winter Patties will provide your colonies with food stores when the bees find the cupboards bare. Pro Winter Patties provide carbohydrates and only a very small amount of protein, so your bees won't be encouraged to start rearing brood too early. 
As warmer weather approaches switch to a pollen substitute patty such as Ultra Bee or Bee Pro® Patties which will provide both carbohydrates and protein for brood rearing. Click here for an informational video on Pro Winter Patties. 


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ernie That small bit of protein is not good for those late winter clusters. 
Feeding liquid syrup through the entrance is the best option 

Let us know how you make out Brian


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Ian, I am aware.
As warmer weather approaches switch to a pollen substitute patty such as Ultra Bee or Bee Pro® Patties which will provide both carbohydrates and protein for brood rearing. 
How many weeks until the bees are moved out?
Regards,
Ernie


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Another option:
Spray fill drawn comb with warm syrup and place the combs with syrup adjacent to the cluster.
Just my $0.02,
Ernie


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BEES4U said:


> Ian, I am aware.
> As warmer weather approaches switch to a pollen substitute patty such as Ultra Bee or Bee Pro® Patties which will provide both carbohydrates and protein for brood rearing.
> How many weeks until the bees are moved out?
> Regards,
> Ernie


A neighbour experimented sliding patty into the entrances late winter ( because our winter shed hives are stacked six to eight high) trying to stimulate late winter brood rearing. 
He said it killed them, as feeding protein to hives that have been without cleansing flights for months simply "exploded".... 
So when wintering indoors I adopted a simple strategy, "get them through winter alive"
I have emergency fed one winter which dragged out a month longer than usual. Entrance feeders are the quickest and provide the least disturbance to those late winter hives. Comes with draw backs, but starving is worst. 

Ernie, I'm hoping the mild stability we have experienced throughout this winter carries forward... Lol
We might be looking to move them out as early as three weeks from now :thumbsup:


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

The feeders and bottles arrived. We start tomorrow. Although not the weather is looking like we might be out by next weekend. Which will give us a few options, since thy won't be stacked up.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Let's hope for a pleasant predictable early spring 👍


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

JSL said:


> I don't winter bees inside, so take this with a grain of salt, but I do winter a fair number of nucs, some on the very small side.
> 
> Jean-Marc has some good comments. To ad, I don't care for fondant either, an alternative we use is mixing in enough water with granulated sugar to make it like wet sand. I then have 2" feeder rims on my nucs. I place a piece of wax paper, paper towel, whatever over the cluster then pack in the damp sugar. It is effectively a cheap candy board. On the mini nucs I can pack on 10 pounds of sugar. The pic below shows the setup. The nuc was packed in early November and the pic was take a week or so ago.


Jsl. Do you worry about the large cluster loafing hanging from the lid? I reacted to a Randy Oliver study that said the bees live longer on the combs, and float a piece of black plastic on top of the sugar in the feeder rim. I was worried they would end up dead above the plastic but that has not happened.  I am wintering wrapped outside.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Vance G said:


> Jsl. Do you worry about the large cluster loafing hanging from the lid? I reacted to a Randy Oliver study that said the bees live longer on the combs, and float a piece of black plastic on top of the sugar in the feeder rim. I was worried they would end up dead above the plastic but that has not happened. I am wintering wrapped outside.


That has not been a concern. The bees come and go on the sugar, depending on the outside temp. The picture I posted was from a warmer day, 40-50 degrees, if I remember correctly. On colder days, they pull back onto the combs and I presume feed from the bottom. My only concern is getting those feeder rims off before they get warmer temps and a little nectar. It is surprising how quickly they will fill that space with new comb and brood!

Side note... We are looking at about 4% loss on those little nucs this year. It has been a very mild winter!


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

A few do build some burr comb but it is a rarity. I suspect it is too cold for waxmaking early here. On strong hives or double nuc pairs, I will get pounds of bees hanging in that warm space above the combs. The plastic appears to have ended it. The bees also appear to be harvesting the droplets of condensation that form there.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I put sub on some hives last year about a month before move out. Ultrabee patties on some and megabee suspension for other. The hives pulled through winter in good shape. Megabee suspension didn't work out well for me as a method for delivery. The bees with the patties were definitely stimulated into brood production. The brood was fairly shoot gunned; even though i fed them syrup a couple of times, it was not enough. I'm don't know if just syrup would have given me the same results.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Did you put them on in Febuary? Did you notice any issues?


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I put them on in the beginning of March and moved that bunch out in the beginning of April. I was shooting for 1 brood cycle but move outs varying by a month from one year to the next, it is kind of a moving target.

From my results there was not enough of a jump start to say it was worth the hassle.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ive heard of bad things happening when feeding solids late winter inside. I think much has to do with the gut condition of the bees themselves

How did you feed them? Just the top row or did you break rows down and restack?

Ive heard Alberta producers doing this, moving them out on a Chinook to get flight, fed and moved back in. They love all that work


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I've heard the same thing Ian. That's why I was testing some hives.

I only pattied 3 hives and fed different megabee syrup suspension to about 10 hives. Others were give syrup and others were given syrup and different concentrations of fumagillin. The hives were tested for nosema and grouped into no infection, light and heavy and tried to apply the same test to each.

I evaluated them the first week they were out. For the most part I didn't see much difference between any of these hives and my other hives. The amount of syrup I fed was definitely inadequate for brood production and I might have gotten much different results if I had fed more for a longer period. Who knows, might have ended up killing the hives instead of promoting a little brood production.

For me to do a lot of work with the bees in the wintering room I would need to see a marked difference. Even if I were able to stimulate a lot of brood production, my concern is that the brood production might get too far ahead of the cluster size for the early spring weather.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

B&E said:


> I have one fan and 3800 singles in my larger building. The system can keep it 0.5c above outside temp.


My wife has been bugging me about making a trip to the falls this summer, she has never been before. Would be a treat to see something like your operation while there.... also would tuen the whole thing into a business write off lol!


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

Ian and I could go for coffee after and I could brag to him about how great your system is. How would you feel about that Ian?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Allen Martens said:


> I evaluated my concern is that the brood production might get too far ahead of the cluster size for the early spring weather.


GOOD POINT! I failed to think of that.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Road trip JoshW! You drive, I'll bring the beer :thumbsup:


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

Ha! You want to third wheel a road trip with the wife and I? She would likely have an opinion on that.... could always head down at the same time though


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

I always enjoy showing other beekeepers around here. Plenty to see and do. We always seem to find a bottle of wine or 2 and a porch to sit on with it.

I had one of partners here today from the company that builds the potato storage equipment I have. He's from PEI but was here for a conference. I told him other beeks could be interested in this. If you buy a system Ian, maybe I will get a free key chain or something.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I put a thermal image gun on the hives today, counting a few blank spots but overall my rows were glowing. Counting 10% losses according to the gun.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Is that good Ian, for this time of year. We will be done our second round after 2 more days of work. We will be at 15%. After that things will slowly creep up to 20%by April 1. We loose about 4-5% to failing queens every month. Come April Fools day we can get queens in and can make up our losses in about 2 weeks. After that anything else is for sale or perhaps a few increases. I just can't help myself.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Id rather have 5% but you know how it goes. Under 20% by May is good around here. But ya, losses made up then in May June


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Pic through the thermal image gun of a row of hives in my winter shed



The dark are dead and easy to spot


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

I have nothing to add to this discussion, but this is one of the most fascinating and educational threads I've read in a while. Thanks to all who contributed so far.


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