# Bees - Which type would you choose? Russian, Carnolian, or Italian?



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

If you can find carni packages I think they would be more likely to survive the winter. I have had Russians and while they were gentle enough, I didn't have the time (or experience ) to keep them out of the trees. Or eaves, or wherever they went to...

You might consider simply starting with Italian packages and requeen with local /regional queens in the Summer. Use the Italian queens to start two nucs. Or one nuc. If you can, try to invest in some nuc equipment.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Check out the Complete Idiots Guide to Beekeeping ...


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I have had all three types that you mentioned - best get something that originates local to you. Perhaps not as convenient as calling an 800 number and saying "send me two packages," but what we're concerned about is getting you the best bees for your area.


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## [email protected] (May 12, 2010)

More importantly than what variety of bees you get is who mentors you. Join a local bee assn and find the most sucessfull beekeeper there. You will find his or her advise far more valuable than anything else. Many bee clubs also offer bee schools, which can be very helpfull. While I intend no offence to anyone, beginners all too often make so many mistakes that the strain of bees makes no difference. Good care always trumps everything else. Dont beleive for one second that "mite resistance" =" mite immunity". You still need to take care of your bees.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Always Carniolans!!!


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## Eddie Honey (May 30, 2011)

I don't know what my bees are. 

I was told they started off as Italians last Spring.
After supercedures, swarms, splits and requeening who knows what the new queens have mated with. 
I guess I have mutts lol.

The bees will be whatever you buy until the first supercedure or swarm.

Good luck in beekeeping. It is alot of fun and very rewarding so far.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

The best bees are pure pedigree mutts. Americans have been inbreeding the same nine bees basically since 1922. A human generation is decades. A bee generation is a year or less. How often can you marry your sisters and still be right?


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## wadehump (Sep 30, 2007)

Get you some local mutts if possible . Catch a swarm buy a local nuc check with honey run in ohio due a search i think he has local to you bees


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

I just ordered a New World Carniolan. What I liked about them is they are (supposedly) bred to be more hygienic, rob less, use less stores. Of no great consequence to me - but for you - they get out earlier in the am (when cold) and will work later in the eve when cold. They shut down use of stores in a drought, but my Italians do that - at least they stop making brood; not actually sure about how much of the stores they are still using. I just got her, so I have no history. Hope to make it to "history"!  If the fricken Eyetalians didn't kill her in tonight's robbing frenzy.


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## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

Local mutts are the best, but I did buy some of Velbert's VSH Yellow and SunKists this year. The VSH builds lots and lots of brood. Both are very gentle. Can't wait to see how they make it through the winter.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

I started out this year, so keep in mind I know NOTHING, but if I were to start again new next year (and if my bees don't overwinter I might be doing that), I would try to lure in some swarms to start with. Easier said than done though, since it is so hard to wait on the whims of nature when we are used to ordering things and getting them on a schedule. You might check out the swarms and trap-out section to see what it would take. A friend of mine from work had a swarm land in his yard late April but didn't know I was starting with beekeeping so didn't tell me until later in the week. Bummer!! 

I started with a package, and since we had an early spring they missed the flow, then we had a drought and the queen shut down so they didn't build up , etc... The package had an Italian queen, but she was not a good layer so I replaced her. I ordered a replacement English Buckfast queen but since it was taking so long to get her and getting late in the season I got a replacement New World Carniolan. They LOVE the new queen, her retinue is huge whereas the original Italian one had just a few bees paying attention to her this one has a circle of over twenty! She also seems to be laying up a storm. I read an article saying hives with a larger queen retinue do better and I am wondering if there is something to that. I have another hive that I just got that was a Buckfast nuc and it is doing really well (I did a chop and crop on it to fit a top bar hive), the queen retinue is a bit less than the NWC but it is boiling over with bees so I am encouraged it will do well. They have all been pretty gentle, which has helped me to learn without being afraid.

I started with a top bar hive so it was best to start with a package of bees (or a swarm!), but you might also check your local bee club. I haven't joined mine yet, but I did see on their newsletter that they ordered nucs, paired the new beekeepers with mentors, and had an installation day. They also had an extraction day and classes on inspections and queen rearing. 

(I was a bit reticent about joining the club because of my choice to go with a top bar hive instead of a traditional Lang and also because I don't want to use chemicals in my hives (I was afraid they would all tell me I had to follow that path). Now I realize there are likely a few members at least dabbling in the same and I should have gone ahead and checked them out further than just reading their newsletter.)

Good luck in your new endeavour! I hope whatever you decide you enjoy your new hobby!


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I started with Minnesota Hygienics, but after about 3 generations they became too testy for me; Angrily headbutting my veil; Stinging me when I approached the hives. I trapped out a Carni. type bee that was gentler, and bought a couple of Carniolan queens and this year I only propogated those bees. The result is that these bees are a lot gentler, no headbangers, fewer stings and gentle enough that I now work my 18 nucs, and 16 hives with bare hands. 
I think it is fine to get two varieties and compare them, and as you progress see which you prefer. Additionally, having two types will give you something to compare.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

I currently have Carniolan, Italian mix (2), Russian/Italian hybrid, and Caucasian(4). So far I like the Russian hybrid and the Caucasian best. If they make the winter I am going to raise queens from them for my splits next spring.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Dan, do you mind detailing what is it you liked or didn't like about the ones you have tried? That's helpful when trying to decide to try a new breed. I don't know anything about Russians or Caucs. And what zone r u in?


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## dansk (Aug 8, 2012)

Carniolans are popular because of the way they overwinter. They require less stores, and are gentle. However, if you are starting in the spring this will not affect you as much. If I were you I would go with an Italian. They are much less likely to swarm. Also, there are many strains of Italian Queens out there. You will find that some are much more gentle than others. If you are a beginner it would be best to select a gentle strain of Italian. This will make for an enjoyable and rewarding beekeeping experience. I would avoid the hybrids, as they often become tempermental in sucessive generations.


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## johns bees (Jan 25, 2009)

I would go carni I worked mine my first year without gloves I find them to be very gentle. Always Carni


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## codyjp (Apr 19, 2012)

The ones I got out of the tree at work seem reasonable, and the price was right too. I'll look for more in the spring.


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> More importantly than what variety of bees you get is who mentors you. Join a local bee assn and find the most sucessfull beekeeper there. You will find his or her advise far more valuable than anything else. Many bee clubs also offer bee schools, which can be very helpfull. While I intend no offence to anyone, beginners all too often make so many mistakes that the strain of bees makes no difference.


Exactly! Another vote for getting mutts. And definitely get involved with a local club:
http://www.ohiostatebeekeepers.org/associations/county-associations/


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## Dave Warren (May 14, 2012)

I started out with Italians, now I have mutts and lots of them, in the evening the orientation flights seem to have lots of them, I have beginners luck with this endeavor!


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Joe - why do you think hybrids become more temperamental in successive generations? I hope that's not the case with my NWC! I started keeping with some Eyetalians out of Texas. Sheeeewie! They were HOT! Puppies swarmed - thank goodness! and the next gen was manageable, thankfully, or I may not be here today.  I sure hope my new girl is sweet and stays that way! I know swarming could be an issue, but that is supposedly diminished in this breed. I know, I know. I love a good sales pitch!

Never thought that there might be different Strains of Italians. Hm. Dern robbers!


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## Eroc1_1 (Feb 3, 2011)

I was thinking Russians for their advertised resistance to mites in order to make it easier?

I guess I will have to find a good breeder here in Ohio for the Carnolians and the Italians... 

I appreciate everyone's information. My neighbor had me help her once with her hives about 2 weeks ago. She is a 4 year novice and with my work schedule it would be hard to make make many(if any) meetings. I am not making this decision lightly as I have been thinking about getting bees for several years.

Thank you,
Eric


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Seymore said:


> Dan, do you mind detailing what is it you liked or didn't like about the ones you have tried? That's helpful when trying to decide to try a new breed. I don't know anything about Russians or Caucs. And what zone r u in?


Fair warning I am a newb, going into my 4th year and have 8 hives and am treatment free in USDA zone 5. I decided to try multiple queen breeds for the first couple of years and so far found I like the Caucasians and Russian hybrids so far. The Caucasians have built up the best so far, 3 new packages this year and they have done as well as nucs I have bought in the past. The of the established hives the ones that have done the best are my Russian/Italian hybrid and Caucasian hives. They produced the best and came out of last winter in the best shape. If they do as well this winter I will breed from them, however I plan on bringing in some northern treatment free queens next summer. The cons, Caucasians do lay down more propolis than any of the other hives, and the Russian hybrids do make many more swarm cells (none used as far as I know) than any other of my hives. I have tried 2 Carniolan queens and both have been duds, but that may have been the supplier. The Italian hybrids have done well but have not excelled, as they did not slow down in the summer derth and eat up most of their excess honey. All have been fairly gentle, except for a feral queen who was a terror, and did not survive long. I plan on raising my own queens next year and continuing to try queens from different breeders until I find what works best in my climate.


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## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

Eroc1_1 said:


> I was thinking Russians for their advertised resistance to mites in order to make it easier?
> 
> I guess I will have to find a good breeder here in Ohio for the Carnolians and the Italians...


Get a hold of Velbert or Broke T on this site. They still might have some.


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

Eroc1_1 said:


> I guess I will have to find a good breeder here in Ohio for the Carnolians and the Italians...


Talk to Tim at Honey Run Apiaries for Carnies:
http://www.honeyrunapiaries.com/


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## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

I went with the B Weaver Italians, which are a breed. The only time they have gotten hot is when I did a split and accidentally took away their queen for two days. A couple of days after she was returned they were very peaceful again. Interesting thing is that according to their YouTube videos, part 1 & 2, they have genotypes of all four types of bees, including AHB. I chose them since they are an hour and a half drive to their Navasota, TX site from my house. I am very happy so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQhwc3Rt-g0&feature=channel&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cbCZOCyD-c&feature=channel&list=UL


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Eroc1_1 said:


> I was thinking Russians for their advertised resistance to mites in order to make it easier?
> 
> I guess I will have to find a good breeder here in Ohio for the Carnolians and the Italians...


I would suggest you don't go with Russians. I had them and they did great the first year. The second year they were much more difficult to keep. They because more defensive and worked much harder at swarming.

See if you can find someone locally who has nucs for sale with local queens. You will pay a little more than a package, but be farther ahead.

Tom


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## popsjim (Mar 4, 2009)

For me, VSH dark


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## AUXCOM (Sep 1, 2012)

I just relocated an Italian queen with 60K bees in a double deep Lang wth top and bottom. Had to drive them 4 hours so they were not happy campers to say the least. I put them in the yard and let them free...then I ran like hell....lol

Now 24 hours later...they are calm and happy and I can just stand next to them without suiting up.

Someone mentioned finding a wild swarm....I would advise against doing this without checking with the your states and caounty laws. Florida enacted laws that make taking wild hives illegal and made them a pest control problem....jez...idiots.
This is because they are afraid of the African bees. Like this is going to make a difference!

Good luck!!


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## seyc (Jul 15, 2012)

I started (this year) with two Italian packages. I got sick of them waiting, in the middle of June, until more than 5 hours after the sun came up, to head out to forage, so I requeened. (Zone 8a) I got a Caucasian/Russian local mutt and then a Russian. The Russian heads out the earliest to forage and they are both producing amazing amounts of brood! Weirdly enough, the Russian hive is producing the least amount of propolis (contrary to popular belief).


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## postie (Oct 15, 2011)

I am a new beekeeper this year and started with 2 packages of Italians because everyone said I should! LOL I am very happy with my bees, they are very calm and patient, however I would like to try another type of bee also. Preferably a swarm! And even more preferably a feral swarm! Packages are not necessarily the best way to go, but are generally the most accessible way for new beekeepers to get bees. The packages (at least the ones I got) generally come fully equipped with a Queen that is a stranger to all and may or may not survive the initial "introduction" and small hive beetles and mites are free of charge!

If you are able to join a club, you will benefit greatly from all the shared information. Hopefully, you can find a mentor...that is not something that happens in my area...whenever it is mentioned in the clubs (I go to 2 of them) to make sure you get a mentor, all the old timer beekeepers start looking at the floor or out the window praying you won't ask them! So, I've been all on my own and this forum has provided the most help ever. Stay on here and listen to the really great beekeepers!!!! And good luck with your new colonies when you start! :thumbsup:


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I have Varroa Sensitive Hygenics (no particular "breed" - bred for their tendency to eradicate varroa when they find it. and a hive of Texas survivor bees I cut out of a house. But the breeder I got the VSH from is local, no website and doesn't ship bees 

The survivor bees are very gentle and are not having any varroa problems, queen slowed down her laying during the summer dearth, but has roared back into high gear in the last couple of weeks, getting bees built up for winter. I caused them a spring brood break that may have cleaned up whatever varroa they had, but sure nailed whatever honey I might have gotten. 

They all look like honey bees, all are pretty gentle, and easy to work. 

(got my bees inspected by a state inspector today - woohoo - he only found one whole varroa in a sugar roll, none in the drone brood)


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I regret getting Russians. They are very touchy. They are my only hives that I make a point of wearing gloves with. I also have Russell Buckfasts which build up well but haven't made a lot of honey. My best producing, gentlest hives started out as Italians but now are bona fide mutts. I have a commercial guy a half mile from me who keeps Carnis so I suspect mine are an Italian/Carni cross. I'm not too far south of you and have yet to lose a hive to cold weather (3 winters) so I wouldn't factor cold tolerance into your choice. The suggestion to hook up with Honey Run is a good one.
Gypsi- Nice to hear things are going so well. Last year you had an epic drama.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Last year I got the bee education of my life! But I remembered every lesson.... Thanks to everyone that put up with the drama. 25,000 bees attacking one small hive was actually quite a sight to see, and a lot funnier in retrospect. I caught that swarm this spring, requeened them, they are nice bees now.


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## wadehump (Sep 30, 2007)

no africians in ohio yet that is all i have 28 hives of swarms and cutouts not hot work them in tank tops and shorts and they survive bad and mild winters


AUXCOM said:


> I just relocated an Italian queen with 60K bees in a double deep Lang wth top and bottom. Had to drive them 4 hours so they were not happy campers to say the least. I put them in the yard and let them free...then I ran like hell....lol
> 
> Now 24 hours later...they are calm and happy and I can just stand next to them without suiting up.
> 
> ...


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Just wanted to point out to any newbies reading this that the types of bees that will be best for you depends on your location. A queen that will be great for Maine probably would not be the best in Texas. This can even depend on the exact location where you live. The nectar flow in a city may be very different (timing-wise) than 50 miles outside of town, given that the plants may be completely different. 

That is, to a large extent, why so many people recommend getting "local mutts." Just because they are mutts does not make them inferior, just the opposite.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Those aren't local mutts! They are SURVIVORS.. (especially in Texas) And that is a great point Neil.

My hot bees weren't African. They had a Cordovan red legged queen. But they were hotter than a firecracker. I learned to duct tape my gloves to my suit.


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## popsjim (Mar 4, 2009)

NeilV said:


> Just wanted to point out to any newbies reading this that the types of bees that will be best for you depends on your location. A queen that will be great for Maine probably would not be the best in Texas. This can even depend on the exact location where you live. The nectar flow in a city may be very different (timing-wise) than 50 miles outside of town, given that the plants may be completely different.
> 
> That is, to a large extent, why so many people recommend getting "local mutts." Just because they are mutts does not make them inferior, just the opposite.


Just ASKING. Why would a queen from Maine,not be good in Texas ?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

popsjim said:


> Just ASKING. Why would a queen from Maine,not be good in Texas ?


Maine has different climate demands than Texas. To do well in Maine, bees need to stay quiet in their winter cluster, not need much in they way of cleansing flights, and be prepared to not have much in the way of natural resources available until mid April. Bees "living" in Texas don't have such issues and consequently the tendencies that make them good in Maine won't help them thrive in Texas. I'm not from the South and I've never lived there, but I think it is safe to say that Texas doesn't seek weeks of -10 in the wintertime. It can get much colder than that here,


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

I asked several times here online if Ohio bred bees would do well in central Arkansas. The NWC. I also asked the breeders their opinion - to be taken with a grain of salt is sadly usually my feeling when asking a question like that of the purveyor. Anyway, nobody chimed in saying no to my question of whether that might be an issue - other than to say they should do fine. When ya don't know that much about bees, it's hard to know the why nots, but all the information I found was why they would do well in the COLD. Nothing about why they might not do well in heat. Some questions just beg to be asked tho. Anyway, suffice it to say I ordered one to try her. Can't wait to see for myself. She did come from Cali instead of Ohio, maybe that will help. A few generations and I will know!


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## Tohya (Apr 6, 2011)

It doesn't really matter where the bees come from. There are variations in different lines of bees, but Carnolians are Carnolians no mater where they were raised. A Carnolian raised in Texas is not significantly different from one raised in Maine. And if you shipped them between the two states they both would do equally well in their new home. All bees from the same line will share the same traits and those traits aren't going change just because they were raised in different areas.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Tohya, not so sure you're completely correct, but I HOPE you are. I'm thinking it may be a bit of both. Gene's obviously play a part. But I'm hoping they can acclimate! I'll have to post something in a year or two. Y'all keep any eye out.


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## Tohya (Apr 6, 2011)

If you open mate you will be crossing your bees with whatever other bee lines are in the area. And that can change traits unless you are in an isolated area or flood the area with your drones.

Also if you want bees that are 'local' you need to get at least two generations away from the starting queen.


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

Honey run Aparies is in Ohio , and Tim sells good NWC queens. My russian/italian hive did well its first season however failed to requeen itself and went laying working on me this season , NWC still chugging along. Sunkist not so impressed that queen, probably wont make it through our winter . Will defnately get more NWC or some strain of carni for 2013


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

I started back in bees this year with 25 nucs. I was told they were Carnolians. The queens were very small and the brood in most left much to be desired. I spent the summer requeening most of these with queens obtained from various breeders. I will have to say the ones I got from Bob Harvey were much larger than the others and are building up rapidly even in the nuc spits I made August 1st. They are from Poline Itialians. 

Maybe the question isn't so much what kind of bee is best, but rather who makes long plump healthy queens.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

NWC Is different from Carniolan, in case that is not generally known.


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## Eroc1_1 (Feb 3, 2011)

What is the difference if I may ask between NWC and Carnolians?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Sorry Tohya, but Carnolians may be Carnolians, but there is no such thing. I believe you intended to say, Carniolans. 

Eroc1_1, New World Carniolans (NWC) were developed here in the USA by Susan Cobey, I believe from bees already existing in the USA for more than 100 years. Actual Carniolan honey bees are found in their native range, see -> Carniolan Honey Bee and New World Carniolan.


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