# Mite count question



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Getting your mite count down is always advisable. You counted dead phoretic mites, the ones that were not ready to breed again just yet. The ones inside of the brood is what you really have to worry about at this time of year. (Assuming you have brood) If you have no brood, then the count you did would be the result of 97% kill of all mites. 

So the real question is if you have brood or not. If you do - Then myself, i'd plan to do another 3 rounds of OAV about 5 to 7 days apart. Kill the ones coming out of the brood before they can reenter new brood.

At 200 mites, I would worry myself. Bees are staging down the brood rearing this time of year and the mites can easily take over the hives if not kept in check. Randy Oliver did a study on using MAQS and the kill rates. He mentioned that this time of year, you had to assume a 1350 mite reinfestation load due to robbing of smaller hives and dead outs. So it's always better to plan to do another round of mite killing..


----------



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

If you do a second treatment on schedule you may have almost no mites if the one you just did as "test" cleaned up a high percentage of the phoretic ones. 

If people start routinely doing a single-shot of OAV as a phoretic mite population assay I think we'll move more quickly to the point where it becomes less effective than it is now. 

What's wrong with a sugar roll, which would give a quick number on a standard scale w/o any extrapolation or guess work needed?

If your bees are still flying they could very well be adding mites from raids on crashing hives.

What was the state of brood when you did the series in Aug/Sept.? Did you do before and after treatment sugar rolls to assess effectiveness? If you did not, then you may not have protected your winter bees as well as you hoped.

I really like OAV for lots of reasons. But if it is mis-used or overused, we will lose a really great tool. I get that it's a stupid-simple way to test for mites, but sugar rolls are not that hard to do, or even routine weekly sticky boards. 

Enj.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Your 40 tray count really tells you nothing. (sorry) you need a sugar roll or better yet a alcohol wash to get a real count. at the same time see if you have much capped brood. normally 80% of your mites are under the caps. but here in fall when brood dwindles or stops that changes.

If your oav worked good the last time you will be pretty clean at 200 on the board, if your treatment was not helpful then that 200 may be natrual drop, which would mean big trouble.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

How are you weighing your hives?


----------



## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Thanks for the answers. 

Enj, I always enjoy reading your posts. I have great respect for you, you are articulate and you have very well thought out systems.

However, when I considered the possible tests.... sugar roll, alcohol wash,,, I realized that those tests also require some extrapolation, all tests do unless you kill every bee and mite and count them ALL.
But anyway, if I did one of those tests I would only be killing a few to a dozen mites for my troubles. 
But if I OAVed the devils, I would kill many more! Hence my OAV use as mite tester. Sorry, I really don't want to bugger up the OAV mite killing system for everyone, but I'm just not convinced I am doing such a thing. 

jw, I weigh the hives with a digital scale from the back. One weighs in at 79 pounds, the other is 68. So maybe the 68 one is only about 125 to 130 pounds.... I exaggerated on that one. I figure they are probably close to double the backside weight. I have fed them honey and 2 to 1 syrup for a while this fall to encourage them to draw the PF120 foundation. They took an entire 5 gallon pail of old honey I had in the garage from the 'old days'. Plus gallons of the syrup. 

I might just OAV them again next Sunday and check the white board to see how they are doing. 

But back to my original question, which somehow got missed: Is 200 mites too many or a manageable number for a generally healthy hive going into cold weather? Thanks.


----------



## wdale (Jun 27, 2014)

Arnie
Ran your mite count through "Mite Count Calculator" you need to get mite count below 10 mites per day based on a 7 day time line using a natural drop I would do another 3-4 rounds of OAV treatment every 4-5 to 5-6 days apart you may still have your "Winter Bees" hatching e-mail me ( [email protected] )( this site will not let me cross link to the site) and I can get the link to "Mite Count Calculator" that I have found a couple a years back (found on a British bee site)


----------



## rv10flyer (Feb 25, 2015)

You count the mites from a natural drop, so 3-5 weeks after 3-5 treatments with OAV. I finished treating mine at the same time as you(Sep 7th). By Oct 15th, 25% of my hives were back over 10 on a 24 hr sticky board and over 5 on a 300 bee sugar shake. So I treated once more on the 25%. I will treat again in December. I don't think the efficacy is even 90%, but it sure is cheap.


----------



## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Update:

While watching Bartolo Colon pitch last night I suddenly remembered an article by Randy Oliver that I had skimmed, and printed part of, in which he described various mite sampling techniques, their efficacy, and his recommendation of mite levels to maintain.

A couple things that jumped out at me this time:
1. His chart showing samples from brood comb from the same hive, that bears repeating, brood comb from the same hive, gave results of 7 to 22 percent infestation.

2. His recommendation to keep mite levels on adult bees to under one percent at any given time. 3 mites in a 300 bee sample, 10 mites on a 24 hour natural drop.

So my mite count of under 200 has my bees in the 'safe' zone. I will do the broodless treatment in early December and call it good. 
I will also monitor natural mite drop in the spring to keep an eye out.

Thanks all.

PS wdale, the link to the interactive Mite Count Calculator is on Mr. Oliver's website in the article I read. Mite Reconnaissance. Thx.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

No, your missing the point, Mite drop is a terrible indicator of your status. It is as close to worthless as you can get. Study after study show this. Any serious beeks will tell you stick boards or dubious at best. Slightly better than a Oiji board if you use a 24 hour non treated window. 

If you want to know your levels you NEED a percentage. Standard is 1/2 cup bees =325 bees. Researcher after researcher has tested this......


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

enjambres said:


> I really like OAV for lots of reasons. But if it is mis-used or overused, we will lose a really great tool. I get that it's a stupid-simple way to test for mites, but sugar rolls are not that hard to do, or even routine weekly sticky boards.
> 
> Enj.


According to Jennifer Berry "It'd be like a ****roach becoming resistant to a hammer." Personally, I think it's a great mite count tool.....


----------



## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

lazybhoney said:


> No, your missing the point, Mite drop is a terrible indicator of your status. It is as close to worthless as you can get. Study after study show this. Any serious beeks will tell you stick boards or dubious at best. Slightly better than a Oiji board if you use a 24 hour non treated window.
> 
> If you want to know your levels you NEED a percentage. Standard is 1/2 cup bees =325 bees. Researcher after researcher has tested this......


Wait......... you're not hinting that natural mite drop is not accurate are you?:lookout:

OK, so I can do sugar rolls. 
However, I have done sugar rolls on 7 hives twice this year and all I come up with is one stinking mite!!! ONE! I roll 'em, I shake 'em, I leave them for a couple minutes, roll 'em and shake 'em some more. And after all that..................one lousy mite.

So that is one reason I did the OAV to determine what is up. And it turns out I am below the 1% mite load on adult bees. 

So maybe the sugar roll is not that far off. But how do I know that without testing some other way?


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

I realize some hate killing bees but if your population is sound I would try at least one alcohol wash. I did a lot of washes and testing for Randy and myself last year. it is the way to go, but you also need to be sure you agitate and rinse well. its the key to a confident assesment.

Ntural drops will vary so much, and you really have no idea the number of bees in the hive....


----------



## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Arnie said:


> I finished my 4 week OAV treatments 7 weeks ago; Sept 7th.
> 
> All is well, the bees look pretty good, still bringing pollen, the hives weigh about 140-150 pounds in 3 mediums.
> 
> ...


You are measuring the mites you killed. Wait 2 weeks and try the count again or use a sugar shake or an alcohol wash to get an accurate count of the mites that are there.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Maybe a medium box user could chim in on what they'd expect three mediums to weigh...? 150 pounds seems like zero space for brood/cluster? That's the only reason I asked.


----------



## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

That's a fair point, jw.

If you do the arithmetic 3 mediums is slightly larger than a double deep. 

There is more to that story, however. I started the summer with one over wintered backyard hive. They had filled out about 2 and a half medium brood bodies last year. This year I added another hive with a package; I gave the package a little boost of frames from the first hive. 
So now the first hive had 2 mediums drawn and a third box with foundation.
The second had a half drawn medium to start.

A few weeks in, the second came down with EFB. I treated and re-queened, but they started to fall behind.

I also had to re-queen the original hive..... that hive's queen was failing.

So now they both have to make up time.
I may be wrong, but they both seemed to dislike the PF120 foundation, just seemed content to live in the two lower boxes and not expand into the third even though we had a good year honey-wise in general.
So, to get them into the third box I started massively feeding them, forcing them to draw new comb in the upper box in order to store the honey and syrup I fed them. They did it. 

About a month ago they still had brood in the second box. The populations are good. I'm not eager to open the hives now and disturb everything just to peek at the brood. I will have to trust them to leave enough open space for winter bees.

Now I kind of wish I had just gone with Rite Cell foundation but that ship has sailed for now. Next year I may try to get them to draw out a 4th medium so they will have even more room. We'll see how they come through the winter.

These are my 'try new techniques' hives. I'm going to wrap these and give them sugar bricks to see if they winter better than our other hives. If they come through strong I may try to graft a couple queen cells, just to learn. I plan one more hive for the backyard so I will need to get a queen. 

There are a lot of beekeeping skills I never had to learn but now that I have the opportunity, I'm having a great time.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I'm not sure that I would use the plastic frames again if they were given to me. Might sell them and buy real frames. They draw the plastic foundation fine, the plastic frames they reject. Harley Craig contended that it was because the frames are small cell. But all of my colonies when given this stuff after being "natural" cell and foundationless. Most derived from swarms from trees/churches/etc. The ones that drew it best were package Italians from California. Some jumped right on it only to reject the same stuff given to them at a later date. 

It's Rite Cell or Acorn from here on out for me. No desire to deal with the plastic frames. I used 60 this year and ended up with about 15 "rejects". They mostly stripped the wax off or in some cases did other strange stuff. The rite cell, for whatever reason, was never as screwed up at the plastic frames. And they almost never drew all the way to the end/bottom bars on the plastic frames.

Not to derail your thread... sorry.

I got most of mine into 3 deeps this winter for overwintering. Will see how it goes. Hoping they blew through whatever is in the bottom so I can reverse in the spring without having to jack with the brood nest much.


----------



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Arnie; You need to refigure, if you are using wooden frames in both a 2 deep or a 3 medium configuration, the 2 deeps have the equivalent of 1 1/4 more square inches of working frame space than do 3 mediums. 

Sugar rolls usually do no remove all of the mites in a sample, alcohol will do a more efficient job. I use natural mite fall to get an idea how the varroa population is increasing, but I have never been able to put a number of varroa in the colony based on natural fall, it usually only shows me the trend and how rapidly they are growing.

Feeding up a colony for winter in 3 mediums does cramp the bees for nest space. In my conditions there is usually no problem, but for piece of mind I would go with 4 boxes.


----------



## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

jw, don't worry about jacking the thread; it's all bee talk, it's all good.

The funny thing about the bees and those frames.....it's like getting a teenager to mow the lawn to get them on that foundation; but once they get going they draw it perfectly. In the afternoons I could sit by the hives, have a smoke and listen to them crunching the wax. I just wish they had done that in June instead of September.
Next year they get the 4th brood box to deal with. Ha!

AR, thanks for that info on the frame space. Now I am even more convinced to give them the extra space. 
From reading what the TF guys do, it seems important to give the bees lots of room for honey so they are not stressed over stores. Heck, even GM Doolittle back a hundred years ago always kept a minimum of three full frames of honey on all his hives all year round. I am guessing he knew a little bit about bees.

So it's all positive; the mites are knocked back; the hives are full and the bees are happy. Mouse guards are in. At the end of November they get another OAV and a quilt box, wrap and upper entrance, and a sugar brick. Life is good.


----------



## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

My mite counts are similarly low (random sugar rolls:0-2, confirmation alcohol washes). I pay more attention to any rate of increase, and watch for other symptoms. I can't attribute low #'s entirely to SC - I'll leave that to someone else to explain/defend. It's just "the way it is", and I'm not about to complain!

I'll defend ML120's - paint an extra coat of beeswax on them (~1oz, per) and watch them draw it out. I'll admit the bees don't work them very well straight out of the box. 'Too bad they don't offer extra coats, like the "other guys"... Paint them with extra wax!!! 

3 (10 frame) mediums at ~120 lbs, going into winter, has been very effective. 4 is overkill around here - no substantial spring differences. 2 mediums( ~85 lbs, unfed) is usually a death sentence in the spring. Heavy with honey - not (2:1) syrup!

Some of this needs to take the race/breed of bees into account.

'Sounds like you're sitting pretty good, Arnie...

Good luck!


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Colobee said:


> I'll defend ML120's - paint an extra coat of beeswax on them (~1oz, per) and watch them draw it out. I'll admit the bees don't work them very well straight out of the box. 'Too bad they don't offer extra coats, like the "other guys"... Paint them with extra wax!!!


I did paint them with extra wax. Some of them 4-5 times. The same as the Rite Cell.
Still wanted nothing to do with it. I much like wooden frames better anyway so it's not big deal. I use roughly 6 pounds of wax per 100 sheets of foundation which is right at your one ounce per. I had bees drawing Rite Cell right through August without feed (got a nice flow). Rejecting the well coated plastic frames at the same time. No clue why and truthfully I don't much care. I just don't want to deal with the hassle.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Happen to have two colonies of bees in 3-medium setups for winter. Was wondering the same thing. How much should they weigh? Had to assume "about the same". Asked around and it's typical no consensus sort of answers. Have one hive that's two mediums and a deep. (more confusion lol) 

Finally I chose to simply shoot for 120# on each hive. Added feeder shims on them all. 

How I weigh them: 
Friend loaned me a cotton scale that goes up to 200#. With a step-ladder and a two by four am able to suspend each hive but first I strap them tight. Made a little "cradle" that stabilizes the hive when suspended. 
Takes two people but it's quite accurate and pretty fast. We did 20 hives in an hour in two locations including travel time.


----------



## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Thanks, Colobee. I'm curious how these two will come through winter. 

A.B. What was the weight on your 3-medium setups? Did you hit the 120 mark?


----------



## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Yes, close enough for me (plus or minus 10 lbs). 3 mediums, full of honey (alone), should run ~150 lbs + the weight of the top & bottom boards, minus winter "brood space" ( ~10 frames) = ~ 120 lbs. (my best guess).

Anything under 100 lbs ( 3x 10 frame medium, or equivalent) is getting a bit risky, in my experience. 

I have a variety of colony conditions. Those numbers are for the full sized production units.

'Sorry - I see that was intended for AuntB...


----------



## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

I was hoping not to have to scour this site for this very topic!!!! 

I want to share my data for analysis.

I started the OAV 3 weeks ago and have done 3 of 4 and read the IPM board after 48 hours just to see what I see: the results are below. I am a little concerned that I haven't seen a linear drop in this post treatment drop . I have seen an increase in some hives but that could be explained in other ways. 

I can continue to do this OAV for another 2 weeks so it would be 5 treatments....OR I could just go in with FA. 

I am a little hesitant to use FA this time of year so I don't kill young newly emerged "winter" bees or uncapped brood-this time of year...November 8th and it is around 60 degrees?

hives 1,2,3,4,5 48 hour post treatment VD drop

Oct24: 51,72,53, 82,125
Oct31: 58,37,107,70,254
Nov08: 31,54,126,89,238


Any ideas?









Arnie said:


> I finished my 4 week OAV treatments 7 weeks ago; Sept 7th.
> 
> All is well, the bees look pretty good, still bringing pollen, the hives weigh about 140-150 pounds in 3 mediums.
> 
> ...


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

vdotmatrix said:


> I was hoping not to have to scour this site for this very topic!!!!
> 
> I want to share my data for analysis.
> 
> ...


Your numbers tell me that you still had emerging brood with mites or you're getting bees drifting in from other hives that have mites. Now how much brood (if any) you have left is the determining factor on another treatment. I'd do another treatment........... let us know...


----------



## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Test procedure recommended by the Alberta Apiarculturist is do a sticky board sample starting one week after treatment. Do a 3 day sample and average daily drop should be less than 10 per day.

Your hive 5 is showing a large drop and I'd OAV treat at least once more. If your three day mite count is down near 100 after three day post treatment my experience is you will be less than an average of 10 per day after a week. 100 mites in a hive with a population of say 40,000 bees is 0.25% which well below guideline of 1% 
infestation. How much capped brood do you have? If there is considerable, maybe consider another OAV treatment of all five hives in a ?month. 

I'd stay away from formic acid as it is too harsh a treatment for my liking.

Maybe someone closer to Virginia can shed further light.


----------



## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

Yes I think that sounds right!! thank you


snl said:


> Your numbers tell me that you still had emerging brood with mites or you're getting bees drifting in from other hives that have mites. Now how much brood (if any) you have left is the determining factor on another treatment. I'd do another treatment........... let us know...


----------



## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

Thank you!I have to look a little closer to see the brood but when I started i had a pretty full house. I will look again or I need to look again in a day or two.

I don't use the IPM board for mite counts except to get a an idea of what is going on....too much can affect the IPM board for a mite count and I will do a SUGAR ROll for evalualting the mite count. NOW I am just wanting to see how many VD drop after the OAV treatment....I will do another or 2 before winter really sets in but still will have the 50% FA at the ready though I don't want to do that at this time of year.....

I use the 50% FA with the fume board I built in July and August when I can stand to loose a few bees.....and when there are a considerable amount in the capped brood.....

Thank you for respomding!!!!


mgolden said:


> Test procedure recommended by the Alberta Apiarculturist is do a sticky board sample starting one week after treatment. Do a 3 day sample and average daily drop should be less than 10 per day.
> 
> Your hive 5 is showing a large drop and I'd OAV treat at least once more. If your three day mite count is down near 100 after three day post treatment my experience is you will be less than an average of 10 per day after a week. 100 mites in a hive with a population of say 40,000 bees is 0.25% which well below guideline of 1%
> infestation. How much capped brood do you have? If there is considerable, maybe consider another OAV treatment of all five hives in a ?month.
> ...


----------



## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

vdot,
You may find that once you get control of the mites with the OAV you may not need the formic acid at all. 
Do your 4th treatment and then remember to treat one last time in early to mid December when the bees are broodless.

Then check them in the spring. This year I did a 3 treatment spring clean-up and the bees were pretty mite free all summer. I probably will not need to treat again next spring, but one never knows.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Arnie said:


> A.B. What was the weight on your 3-medium setups? Did you hit the 120 mark?


Yes, One was 95# back in October when I weighed but I've fed it so much I'm not even weighing it. Another was 115# in October so I only fed it a gallon of 2:1 and called it good. Remind me next spring and I'll say how it went. Both were treated with MAQ's in September.


----------



## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

I was hoping not to have to scour this site for this very topic!!!! 

I want to share my data for analysis.

I started the OAV 3 weeks ago and have done 3 of 4 and read the IPM board after 48 hours just to see what I see: the results are below. I am a little concerned that I haven't seen a linear drop in this post treatment drop . I have seen an increase in some hives but that could be explained in other ways. 


hives 1,2,3,4,5 48 hour post treatment VD drop

Oct24: 51, 72, 53, 82, 125
Oct31: 58, 37, 107, 70, 254
Nov08: 31, 54, 126, 89, 238
Nov13: 89, 51, 91, 203, 130

"
Your hive 5 is showing a large drop and I'd OAV treat at least once more. If your three day mite count is down near 100 after three day post treatment my experience is you will be less than an average of 10 per day after a week. 100 mites in a hive with a population of say 40,000 bees is 0.25% which well below guideline of 1% 
infestation. How much capped brood do you have? If there is considerable, maybe consider another OAV treatment of all five hives in a ?month. "

I am thinking one more treatment should do it.


----------



## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

I completed 5 weeks of OAV and for the most part can see anticipated drop numbers to reflect starting the treatments when there was still significant brood present to explain the rise of mites. LAst week I began to see a dent in the VD population. I think I will do one last OAV in 2 weeks......or maybe black friday.....

hives 1,2,3,4,5 48 hour post treatment VD drop (except Oct.24th-24hrs.)

Oct24: 51, 72, 53, 82, 125
Oct31: 58, 37, 107, 70, 254
Nov08: 31, 54, 126, 89, 238
Nov13: 89, 51, 91, 203, 130
Nov22: 34, 32, 90, 111, 33 








"Your hive 5 is showing a large drop and I'd OAV treat at least once more. If your three day mite count is down near 100 after three day post treatment my experience is you will be less than an average of 10 per day after a week. 100 mites in a hive with a population of say 40,000 bees is 0.25% which well below guideline of 1% 
infestation. How much capped brood do you have? If there is considerable, maybe consider another OAV treatment of all five hives in a ?month. "

I am thinking one more treatment should do it.


----------



## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Hey vdot, looks like you are getting them under control.
Maybe one more around the first week of December should do it.
Then check again in the spring just to be sure.


----------

