# brooding after winter solstice



## drtoddh (Mar 31, 2013)

In southern Ohio, I have an observation hive inside the house. No brood at all, clustered up tight right now. Interestingly, being indoors doesn't seem to change their behavior much. They pretty much follow what my outdoor hives do.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

interesting, thanks todd. i'd be interested in hearing back when you first see brood.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

average temperature wise, your march is like our january.


----------



## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

I peaked in on some of my nucs on 12/22 and found a palm size patch of brood also.I was surprised to find brood at this time of the year.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I am not sure a indoor observant hive would produce the same climate as a hive outdoors in full sun. Considering all the factors involved I suspect a cluster inside a hive in full sun could get much warmer than on in a house at 70 degrees but no way to get solar gain. Keep in mind that bees want it more like 95 degrees. Our typical 70 ish would be on the cool side for them. It is the lower end of brood rearing temperatures and I have seen information that suggests the development of brood is retarded at those temperatures. According to observations made by Huber anyway.

As I understand it brood production does not necessarily sease. it slows down up to the solstice and then begins to increase again. I would suspect that weather and other factors also need to be considered. Colony strength which I have seen information that indicates a weak colony is more likely to to continue with brood more than a strong one.

Winter brood production is confirmed by Langstroth having found frames of brood in a hive in early February. 

"opening one of my hives on the 5th day of February and found an abundance of eggs and brood. Although the winter had been an unusually cold one,..."


----------



## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

I was also surprised to see some capped brood (50-70 cells) after a period of almost a month with night lows between 23 and 14 at night and ~30 during day time. We're having some warm days this Christmas(48 max. today with heavy cleansing flights) and I had the chance of opening a hive.
I'm having my first 2 hives going into Winter and left them with no insulation except for some above the cover to avoid condensation under the lid. It's easy to peak inside at any time: just raise the lid a bit - the colder the more bees getting down the frames.
In my area I had no brood at the end of August, then some in November at one hive and December the other.
I'm very curious to see when they will really start laying in my area.
I also noticed this winter that the hens produced a lot of egs wich didn't happen during the last 4 years since I have them and despite the low temperatures during December. We had a warm November and a cold December.

Regards,
Cristian


----------



## red (Jan 15, 2013)

I moved my bees to Cali. three weeks ago. I went through them last week and found eggs and larva in most of them. Right now they are going threw 25lbs. of ultra bee dry feed per week.


----------



## Stonewall (Aug 27, 2013)

Interesting observations. It was warm enough to do inspection in my local, 6 days ago. At that time I went through 7 hives. The two strongest had no obvious brood, but plenty of bees and healthy looking queens. The 5 late summer splits had fewer bees but each had capped brood in the several hundred to a thousand range. 

While the above was encouraging, I have had 2 deadouts out of 30 hives. I need to go in and try to clarify the reasons for this.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> are any of you seeing any signs of early brooding?.


Yes, couple frames of brood right now.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

excellent keith, sounds like you're on track for feb.

what is the average low temp at your location this time of year?


----------



## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> average temperature wise, your march is like our january.


Ah, but your July is like our eternal ****ation.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

cg3 said:


> Ah, but your July is like our eternal ****ation.


 yep. mid july to mid august is no fun here. otherwise the remaining 11 months are great with distinct changes as the seasons progress.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> .
> 
> what is the average low temp at your location this time of year?


high 30's-low 40's


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

got it, thanks keith!


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

I found eggs and larvae a few days ago in my weak hive.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

low 50's today, sunny, light winds, uncapping crumbs at the entrances, foraging a little pollen and water, orientation flying vs. group cleansing flights.


----------



## Hoss's BBQ Honey (Apr 25, 2013)

Squarepeg, Is this a warmer winter than most for our area in terms of bees? I know you are more Northern than I am, but we have had some days in the 70's here. I have been nervous this much warm weather will have them going through their stores very quickly this year. I have been checking weight of the hives every other week. Hoss


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

howdy hoss! i think we've been close to historical averages so far this year. i don't think you'll find that your bees have used much of their stores yet, but will begin to use them more and more toward the end of january and into february. this is when the first tree pollens start to come in and brooding starts to accelerate.

the tricky time is when they have used up stores to build up their numbers in anticipation of the early nectar flows, and then we get hit with a long stretch of cold and/or rainy weather. this is what happened this past spring, and my hives were just getting to the point of needing supplemental feeding when the weather finally broke and all was well.

what is your box configuration and how much do they weigh?


----------



## Hoss's BBQ Honey (Apr 25, 2013)

I have two hives. Both have two deeps. One has two supers with one being full of capped honey and the second has about 5 frames of honey. The other hive had a super going into winter of uncapped honey that they have moved down (At least that's what I think they did). So I removed that super. The one with the supers I can not tilt with one hand the second one I can. I have taken 50# boxes of potatoes here at work to judge what it should feel like weight wise when I tilt them. I also compare to the empty equipment I have waiting to do splits in the spring. 
Do you do Pollen cakes starting soon? Or do the trees blooming provide enough?


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

on the pollen cakes, i think we have enough natural forage here in the tennesse river valley. i have been avoiding pollen sub and syrup because i want the bees to respond to the changes in seasons and the natural flows. we are blessed with an abundance of forage here, and it's probably healthier than supplemental feeding. i don't have anything against those who want to use supplemental feeding in an attempt to increase their honey crop, but it's not necessary if you leave your bees enough stores.

on the hive weights i'll bet your good to go. what you may consider doing is taking a look into the lighter one in a month or so on one of those nice 60-70 degree days to see how much capped honey they have. one option would be to move one of the supers off of the heavy one and divide the honey in the supers between the two.

i use a digital fish scale to weigh my hives, hooking one side and then the other, and adding the two. with one deep and two mediums mine were at about 110-120 lbs in early november. i haven't weighed them since, but i can see the still have plenty of capped honey in the supers by just popping the top.

two of my hives that were lighter than the rest have already died out, not from starving, but from dwindling down to clusters too small to carry on. most likely from mites since i don't treat. this would be another good reason to do a good inspection on your light one on a warm day, and if it is on its way out, don't waste the stores from your heavy one on it.


----------



## Hoss's BBQ Honey (Apr 25, 2013)

I had thought that I could move a super if I needed it for the smaller hive. So that is good to hear. I will check them for honey next month for sure. Thanks Hoss


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

yer welcome, good luck!

i transferred the supers off of the two dead outs (after ruling out afb) to other hives in my yard. turns out the boxes didn't fit tightly with each other leaving a bit of a crack. it was enough of a crack that it invited would be robbers who could smell the honey through the crack. there was a little tussling at the entrances so i reduced them with a screen to just one bee, and put some tape over the cracks until the bees have a chance to get them propilized. the would be robbers lost interest pretty quickly.

if you remove honey supers on a warm day this time of year, close them up until they are put back on.


----------



## Hoss's BBQ Honey (Apr 25, 2013)

A few more questions. When Is our main flow here? I bought my splits from Bill Mullins last year. I know I gave him the equipment at the beginning of March and he did the splits then. Is that The best time around here? I know some people say aim for a few weeks before the Main flow, yet I am not 100% sure when that will be?


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I'm way south of you, but all my hives have a couple frames of brood, and one has 4 or 5. We have had a couple nights in the low 30s lately.

That vigorous hive also has a little capped drone comb as well, so not long until I can start making splits, I think.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Hoss's BBQ Honey said:


> A few more questions. When Is our main flow here? I bought my splits from Bill Mullins last year. I know I gave him the equipment at the beginning of March and he did the splits then. Is that The best time around here? I know some people say aim for a few weeks before the Main flow, yet I am not 100% sure when that will be?


good question hoss. we have pretty strong early flows here that the bees can fill up a super or two on. it varies calendar wise because spring comes sometimes earlier and sometimes later. the early flows start with red maples and other hardwoods, followed by fruit trees and things like redbud and dogwood. you won't see much new wax being drawn at this time.

as these blooms play out the locust and tulip poplar come on board and these are going strong at the beginning our main flow. somewhere in between the early flows and the main flow is when most of the swarms are issued around here. my current benchmark for two weeks before main flow is when i see the tulip poplar buds in the growing stage but not yet open. this is a great time to make a split.

during main flow is when most of the new wax gets drawn for the season. it lasts on average from 6 - 8 weeks. a strong colony that is prevented from swarming can fill 3-5 more supers on it, especially if the wax is already drawn. i harvested almost six supers off of my best hive, and left them two for winter. that's a colony that came out of winter with zero stores!

a swarmed colony doesn't do anywhere near as much because by the time they get their numbers back up the main flow is about over.

then we have a period of dearth that can be 6 - 8 weeks long during which the colony may have to consume some of their stores. in some colonies broodrearing stops completey and the hive might look queenless but it's not. last summer we had enough rain to keep just enough forage available so that not much of the spring honey was used. i like to leave them with _at least _one full and one partially full super of honey during the summer.

the late sumac, goldenrod, and other fall blooms show up around mid to late august to start the fall flow. there is usually good forage available from then through mid to late october. 

overwintering here can be done in five and ten frame boxes and that's a good way to put up some 'spares' to replace any winter losses. for established colonies and when honey production is the goal, i'm learning it's better to overwinter larger hives. this year i left two supers of honey instead of just one for my production colonies to overwinter on. for next year i'm planning to leave an additional super at the bottom of the stack. that's a total of one deep and three mediums, which is roughly the same space as three deeps.

the advantages should be larger and stronger over wintering colonies, and a better shot at swarm prevention by checkerboarding all three supers in late winter. we'll see.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

rhaldridge said:


> I'm way south of you, but all my hives have a couple frames of brood, and one has 4 or 5. We have had a couple nights in the low 30s lately.
> 
> That vigorous hive also has a little capped drone comb as well, so not long until I can start making splits, I think.


ray, do your bees completely stop brooding vs. continuously maintaining at least a small amount of brood?


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

SQ, here are some pics from today, 12/28 these bees are all at home in our back yard . 

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/P1010151_zpsf344073d.jpg
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/P1010150_zps9077aea3.jpg
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/P1010149_zps11f575e6.jpg
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/P1010148_zpsc087c926.jpg

SQ, you can see that the patty is almost gone in the first box, they will now start on the patty in the second box. These hives have on about four frames right now, but, by the end of Jan they will have an avg of 7-8 frames. 

There are couple thousand hives here in my back yard and about 80% are triples, we like this because you can feed about ten pounds of sub at ONE feeding, each seem gets about five pounds and they say were going to be short on bees in the almonds.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

cool pix keith, thanks!

6 weeks to go, will all three deeps be full of bees by then?


----------



## Hoss's BBQ Honey (Apr 25, 2013)

Wow I am worried about two hives making it through the winter. That is amazing!


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> cool pix keith, thanks!
> 
> will all three deeps be full of bees by then?


The last pic I smoked the bees out of the way of the top box with the the sub stuck to the bottom of it so you could see how much sub they are eating, both patties were the same size at the start. If I hadn't smoked them you would see thriples full of bees I will take a shot tomarrow without smoke.


----------



## Action (Jan 8, 2005)

I think I have seen that smoker-----LOL


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

nice. do they become singles for almonds?


----------



## drtoddh (Mar 31, 2013)

UPDATE...I said in an earlier post there was no brood in my observation hive. I just caught a glimpse of a very small patch of open and one capped brood cell under a very warm area of the glass. Queen hanging there now also. So it looks like they just started up again!


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very cool todd, thanks.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> ray, do your bees completely stop brooding vs. continuously maintaining at least a small amount of brood?


Well, hard for me to say what's normal, as this is my first year. But a few weeks back I was fairly alarmed because 2 of my full size hives had no brood, but my other full size did, and so did my three nucs. I feared queenlessness, but then I saw the queen in one hive. A week or two later there was brood again in both hives. Don't know what was going on.

My guess is that here the bees do maintain a little brood all winter long, in most cases. They still bring in pollen and nectar, so I suppose they need to keep their numbers up.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

interesting ray, thanks.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> do they become singles for almonds?


No, we run them in either doubles or triples, singles in the almonds are a waste of time.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

makes sense. more bees per pallet and i guess you are paid by the frame of bees?

sorry for the newbee question. your colonies are looking mighty strong, good job!


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> makes sense. more bees per pallet and i guess you are paid by the frame of bees?
> 
> sorry for the newbee question.


 Its all good SQ, the problem with singles is that they jam (plug) out with pollen in the almonds and STOP pollinating. I have seen this many times, and our job after all is pollinating, that's what were getting PAID for..


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood keith and thanks. 

i am intrigued about how a whole year's work comes down to just a few weeks.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> i am intrigued about how a whole year's work comes down to just a few weeks.


SQ, very well said.


----------



## hillbeekeeper (Mar 11, 2013)

Orientation flights this afternoon.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good stuff hb, you and i should be getting about the same weather. are you seeing a little pollen coming in here and there?


----------



## hillbeekeeper (Mar 11, 2013)

No, Squarepeg, I didn't. The henbit and dandelion just kind of goes in and out at best right now. I probably won't see any really substantial pollen at the earliest until the maples and more likely with the pears.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

same here. the rare bee will have some pollen, maybe from the neighbor's ornimentals. but i agree we're not there yet. i guessing a few weeks from the juniper starting, and a little longer than that for the maples. thanks for the reply.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> makes sense. more bees per pallet and i guess you are paid by the frame of bees?


Not really. you are paid for a specific number of frames per hive. They offer bonuses for more but if you do the math you are loosing considerable money per frame if you provide those "Bonus" frames. One example I was sent would have paid about $23 per frame for 7 frames of bees. but to send 9 frames of bees the price per frame dropped to a bit over $18. Quite an incentive to send weaker hives if you ask me. The "bonus" for up to 11 fraems of bees made it even worse. The way I see it. the only way they can legitimately be calling that a bonus is that there is plenty of boning going on.

I need some help. I will pay you 12 dollars an hour unless the job goes on for 12 hours. IF that is the case I will pay you $8 an hour. Just think of how much longer you will be making money. You can bet it will take 12 hours to do that job and your pay woudl be exactly the same.

Now sending hives with 9 frames. and only getting $9 per frames for those extra two rather than the $23 you got for each of the other 7. you are basically sending every 5th hive completely free. Better to just send them 7 frames of bees in every box and getting paid $23 for every frame of bees you send.

To me a bonus looks like $24 per frames for that 8th and 9th one. So how about an offer that reads more like. $165 for 8 frames of bees $190 for 9 and $215 for 10. Now that is a bonus.


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Would a double hive that has twice as many bees than a single have more than twice the foragers?
What percent more?


----------



## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

Most of my full size hives have two frames of brood, the nucs have 1/2-1 frame of brood. I will have to move the nucs up into singles by mid to late January.


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm not trying to be smug because I could actually use a break, but S. California has been experiencing mid-summer temps most of the fall/winter. All hives I see have been brooding considerably and drone production is on the upswing. Pollen just started coming in and they are bulking up. I'll have a very busy year.

On the negative side this will be the second record-breaking driest year in a row, I feel bad for anybody that has bees in the countryside. It's as dry as a popcorn fart out there.

~Tyson


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Would a double hive that has twice as many bees than a single have more than twice the foragers?
> What percent more?


I read the other day that studies have shown 1/3rd or 33% more. What I read was in terms of numbers of bees. so if you have a colony with 15,000 bees and they make 10 lbs of honey. a colony with 30,000 bees will make 26 lbs. and a colony of 60,000 would make 65 lbs.
For a hive of 8 frames of bees. not only doubling but double plus 33% makes each frame increase productivity by .0375%. So not only should a grower pay the full price of every other frame. about 4% should be added to every frame in the hive. so the price on the 9th frame should be the price of every other frame of $20. plus the 80 cents for every frame in the colony of $7.20, making just the fair price on that frame $27.20. for a total rental of $187.20. And that is just paying for what they get. there is no bonus in it.


----------

