# First-time beekeeper with hive dwindling to nothing



## tibadoe (May 18, 2013)

Any signs of eggs? Are you feeding them? Can you find the Queen?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

tibadoe said:


> Any signs of eggs? Are you feeding them? Can you find the Queen?




To add a little more: If a picture is worth a thousand words then 2 or 3 pictures would surely help the people on BS give you the correct answer without having to guess or write a book. The information provided gives us little or no clues.


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## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

Not to be discouraging, but if you are down to less than 1000 bees you probably won't save that hive. Do you still have a queen in the hive? If you do there should be no problem finding her with that small amount of bees. If so find a local beek and see if he will sell you a couple of frames of bees and brood. If there is no queen go buy a nuc of bees and combine what you have left with them. As a person without many resources such as drawn comb and other hives to use to boost a struggling package you are much better off buying a nuc of bees. With a nuc you get plenty of bees and a couple of frames of brood and a couple frames of honey. This really helps get your bees going.


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## Kit Sumner (Jun 2, 2013)

I'm sorry but I have to admit that although I have pictures that, I think, clearly show larva in uncapped many uncapped cells, I have no idea how to post them. I am feeding sugar syrup 1:1. There are a few drone cells and what appears to my untrained eye to be the start of at least one queen cell!

On the bottom of this page on the right it says under permissions that I can post attachments -


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## Kit Sumner (Jun 2, 2013)

Bill91143 said:


> Not to be discouraging, but if you are down to less than 1000 bees you probably won't save that hive.





Bill91143 said:


> Not to be discouraging, but if you are down to less than 1000 bees you probably won't save that hive.


This is exactly what I fear will be the case. I have no beekeeper contacts in this area, most especially not top bar beekeepers. You say a nuc would be best but isn't that specifically for Langstroth hives? Could I use one on my top bar hive?

I do believe I still have a queen because of the larva I see. However, I haven't spotted her lately and I did see the start of what I think is a queen cell. I've even begun to distrust my past queen sightings because of the condition of my hive.

I have three pictures that I am attaching to attach to this message. I hope it works.


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## rlsiv (Feb 26, 2011)

Kit, I see what looks like uncapped drone brood - are you able to see ANY uncapped worker brood?
In the 2nd picture, it looks like a smallish queen cell toward the upper right. So if your hive is queenright (presence of eggs or uncapped worker brood), there may be a problem with the queen and they're replacing her. If they aren't queenright, then they appear to be trying to fix the problem themselves.


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## Kit Sumner (Jun 2, 2013)

rlsiv, I noticed that smallish queen cell and a couple others but wasn't entirely sure what I was looking for (being "book taught"!)

I know what a capped drone cell looks like. I'm attaching two pictures with what I hope are some uncapped worker bees in with the capped workers.

















Thank you for any input.


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## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

It looks like capped honey in these last photos.


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

queen cell. keep diligently feeding.i see no capped worker brood. slim chance u can save the hive. put the excluder on the smallest entrance . 

i always recommend people buy atleast 2 packages or nucs of bees for this reason. no place to pull resources from. contact ur local beekeepers and ask for some help. im sure they'll have problem lending a hand.


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## Kit Sumner (Jun 2, 2013)

Bill91143 said:


> It looks like capped honey in these last photos.


That's depressing. I thought for sure I had capped workers. Darn!


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## Kit Sumner (Jun 2, 2013)

tommysnare said:


> queen cell. keep diligently feeding.i see no capped worker brood. slim chance u can save the hive. put the excluder on the smallest entrance .
> 
> i always recommend people buy atleast 2 packages or nucs of bees for this reason. no place to pull resources from.


I made a big mistake not starting two hives. That's what I will do next year.

I found this discarded by the entrance three days ago so there must have been some egg-laying at some point, right?


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## tibadoe (May 18, 2013)

Normal for find some brood discarded by the entrance. The bees are just doing their thing. I find it on occasion myself.


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## rlsiv (Feb 26, 2011)

The other responses are dead on... that's capped honey in your last two photos, and it looks like nectar/honey in the adjacent open cells. Those have a waxy-to-shiny surface that is slightly concave, vs worker brood that is more of a "matte" finish look and is slightly convex (but not as pronounced as drone cells, which have a bullet-tip appearance). That queen cell looks like its on the small size, which isn't uncommon for emergency queen cells. With only the one hive, your options are limited - but I like Tommysnare's suggestion that you reach out to neighboring beekeepers for some assistance... that'd greatly enhance your options, and you may get lucky and find a mentor. The Connecticut Beekeepers meet in Hamden, which is only about 20 miles from you. Here is a link to their meeting schedule. They also have a Contact page. http://ctbees.com/meetings/


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## Kit Sumner (Jun 2, 2013)

Thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions. I'm going to join the Connecticut Beekeepers immediately and try to learn from the members. So far local beekeepers have been hard to find. I think this hive is doomed because I have no capped worker bee cells and have never seen any. Don't laugh but I thought the honey cells were worker bee cells because I thought they came before honey cells. I think I have been without a queen for a long time perhaps back to the alarming event on Day 4 that I mentioned in my first paragraph. So, it is my understanding that even though the workers seem to be trying to build queen cells, they can't possibly make a queen without an egg fertilized by a queen. The dead pupa I found was probably the product of an egg-laying worker bee. I feel very foolish and ignorant.

Thank you all again.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Kit you aren't the first person to think capped honey is worker brood.

And you are right in thinking you have been without a queen for a long time probably very soon after hiving your package.

Robbing will often occur when a hive is queenless and I think your hive was queenless before it was robbed rather then the robbing causing the queen to die.

You are also right that the "queencell" will be useless and will not come to anything. 

So in reality you have learnt alot from this hive and it's lessons you can take forward to your next hive and that one will teach you more lessons.

The wonderful thing about bees and beekeeping is you never stop learning no matter how long you have been keeping bees.

I think you have the makings of a good beekeeper because you looked for answers to your problem rather than just ignoring it letting the hive die and starting again with no insight as to what went wrong.

So many times a new beekeper will post the question, what happened to my hive?

all they have is half a dozen bees no queen and they haven't looked inside it for 2 months!

Better luck with your next hive Kit but it probably wont be the last time you have a hive die out. It's part and parcel of beeing a beekeeper


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## fruitveggirl (Mar 8, 2013)

Hi, Kit, 
I'm a first year beek in CT, too! My bees are goin like gangbusters, so I would be willin to give you one bar. My bars are 19 inches. Or if you're interested, you can contact White Oak Apiaries in Brewster New York. That is where I got my hive. You may be able to get some bars from him. I think he normally makes 17" bars. You can email me at [email protected] if you need more info.

Btw, I also belong to the CT Beekeepers assoc, so maybe I'll see you there sometime!


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## Kit Sumner (Jun 2, 2013)

Dear "frazzledfozzle"

Thank you so much for your clear, intelligent and encouraging response. Your step-by-step statement of the situation I'm in (as well as the responses of other forum members) has given me the answer that, although dreaded, lets me know I have a failed hive without enough summer and resources to save it. I'm sure you are correct and I am now looking forward to next year's fresh start with TWO hives and a wealth of knowledge gained. You were very kind and helped quell my guilt . . . . . all the way from New Zealand!!!! You can be sure I will be studying up and making "beek" connections before hiving time next year.

Thank you and the forum again for taking the time.
Sincerely,
Kit Sumner


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## DrWeevil (May 16, 2010)

Kit,

I had a very similar experience with my first TBH. I installed a package, then on the 4th or 5th day the bees absconded with the queen. The left-behinds were tending a tiny hive of about 5 combs, the largest about the size of a hand. Amazingly, they managed to replace the queen, and all but 1 of my current 5 hives are decended from this replacement queen. I was lucky to have enough summer left for that tiny bunch to recover.

Good luck, and keep at it!

Ray


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Kit Im new to this too, I choose Langstroth but am considering a TBH next year. I too am facing difficulties in my first year, one struggling went laying worker.... successfully re queened and the other is booming. Keep your chin up, there is nothing more satisfying than the buzz around your head and the pollen stores coming home. It will get better. Good Luck. G


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## Kit Sumner (Jun 2, 2013)

Dr.Weevil and biggraham610,
Thank you both for your encouragement. It's great to read successful first year stories from other TBH (or "almost" TBH) beekeepers. Next year I'll be sort of a first year beekeeper for a second time but with a lot of knowledge gained from mistakes. As Michael Bush says in his "Rule 1: If you're not making mistakes, you're not learning anything."
Thanks again, Kit


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## Kit Sumner (Jun 2, 2013)

Sorry, I thought this didn't go through the first time.


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## Kit Sumner (Jun 2, 2013)

Oops


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Kit,
Get in touch with Fruitveggirl, she offerred you a frame, it might not be too late, still have the fall flow. Good Luck!! G:applause:


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## naomi1431 (Jul 7, 2013)

Kit--

I don't know much, but if I were you, I'd go ahead and order a queen. A frame of brood might lead to a laying queen within a month or so, but I think that they'd be more likely to recover with a queen that's already laying. I just ordered one for a hive that was clearly queenless from Arthur Hudgins in Georgia. ($25 + $10 shipping. It took my check one day to get there & he sent her the day he got the check. But that's shipping Georgia to Alabama.) 

Hudgins Apiaries
37 Cedar Oak Way
Cedartown,Georgia.30125
Email: [email protected]
Phone 770-748-0482

I don't know how good of a queen she is, but I called lots of places before finding anyone who even had queens available and would send just one. You might be able to find a supplier closer to you. (I went by this map... again, I don't know how fabulous a source this is: http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/queenproducers.html There are several suppliers on this map that are a good deal closer to you.) If you call several northern suppliers, can't find and queen, and end up shipping Georgia to Connecticut, I recommend paying the extra for 2-day shipping. (But that might be overkill and I might be a worry wart. Who knows?)

I wonder if others have thoughts on the benefits of getting a queen now vs. going the borrowed brood route?


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## Portabee81 (Mar 26, 2013)

Those bees look very wet as well. Did you take pictures in the rain?


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## Kit Sumner (Jun 2, 2013)

G,
I did! She is terrific and more than willing to help. Her top bars are 19 inches and mine are 17 1/2 so I'm afraid it wouldn't work. However, we are planning to get together soon at her house. It will be good to view a successful newby's hive.


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## Kit Sumner (Jun 2, 2013)

naomi1431 said:


> Kit--
> 
> I don't know much, but if I were you, I'd go ahead and order a queen. A frame of brood might lead to a laying queen within a month or so,


I think that if I had recognized my queen-less state a month ago, I would do exactly as you suggest . . . and I appreciate the contact information you have supplied (went right in my bee folder).
However, couple of days ago I had a 1 hour and 40 minute consultation with Christy Hemenway, author of "The Thinking Beekeeper" by telephone from Bath, Maine (GoldstarHoneybees.com). She was our source for our 3 lbs. of bees but had been out of the country when we slowly discovered the state of our hive with the help of this forum. When she got home we sent her lots of pictures and described our situation. When she saw how little comb we had (just 3 1/2 underdeveloped combs), saw that we didn't have any eggs, larva or capped brood, and saw so few bees remaining, she said there was really nothing to do but save the combs for next year and start again . . . but with two hives. So that's my plan now.

Thanks so much for your great advice. I'll keep a copy of this post.
Kit


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## Kit Sumner (Jun 2, 2013)

Portabee81 said:


> Those bees look very wet as well. Did you take pictures in the rain?


No, but I don't have a smoker . . . I've been reading pros and cons but hadn't bought one. So when, during this inspection, the girls got very upset, I gave them a light, fine squirt from a spray bottle of water that quieted them right down. I was very surprised that the water droplets even showed up on the pictures because it was so little.

I'd like to hear peoples' opinions about smokers . . . pro and con but I guess that should be on a new thread.

Kit


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