# Probiotics in Prepared Patties



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

hmmm, I got an interesting response to this question on Bee-L. Kind of the exact answer my farm nutritionalist implied to me strongly. 

Why are beekeepers not asking the question, will those bacteria still be viable in the patty by the time the bees get the chance to consume them? ?

*"now with probiotics!"*


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> Why are beekeepers not asking the question, will those bacteria still be viable in the patty by the time the bees get the chance to consume them?


That's the question I have for the sugar blocks I made for the bees this winter... did the moisture from the cider activate the bacteria and it died in the dehydrator. So far I see no difference between the sugar blocks w/probiotics and the other sugar blocks. Maybe there will be a difference in the spring, but I'm doubtful.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Cam, I have recieved an email today an anonymous response to the question I posted;

"It is clear that the 1/2 life of the probiotic is 1 day once wet. After 
4 days if it is still not consumed then it is dead. Dry fed probiotic" 

I think before beekeepers start *testing* the viability of probiotics supplements, they/we need to first figure out the best medium to administer the product. Are these probiotic supplements premixed in the patties actually getting to the bees?

But as suggested to me earlier, maybe the better question to ask would be to ask if the specific species of bacteria are actually found in the bee gut, and whether introduction provides a benefit.

As I understand, the cattle probiotic and prebiotics is included in our cattle feed more so act to condition the stomach and guts. Can we expect the same in bees with introduced probiotic bacteria and prebiotics agents?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I'm surprised that there is an assumption that in order to provide a benefit, that the live bacteria must enter the bee.

Wine doesn't have any viable yeast...nor does bread. Any bacteria that is present in pickles, saurkraut, cheese, etc is unlikely to survive the stomach acids to colonize your intestine. But these yeasts and bacteria are important as 'pre-digestion'...they are important to make the food what it is and preserve it. Think about that alcohol in wine and the acid taste of a good pickle are produced by the microbes...they are not ingredients in the product, they are products of the process (which is mostly hands off).

I wouldn't be surprised if some microbes might make some supplement, or ingredient more digestible...we know they are important for dealing with real pollen. Maybe innoculating a wet pattie can show some results even if it is from the pattie fermenting.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

deknow said:


> Maybe innoculating a wet pattie can show some results even if it is from the pattie fermenting.


I would ask, is that their intention? Because if it is, then my original question is mute.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I have no idea what "their" intention is. I would be more interested if putting it in the patty made a measurable difference for the bees than I would to find out why...you can always find out why later...but why is irrelevent if it doesn't do anything.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

deknow said:


> I have no idea what "their" intention is. I would be more interested if putting it in the patty made a measurable difference for the bees than I would to find out why...you can always find out why later...but why is irrelevent if it doesn't do anything.


my neighbour is buying a probiotic supplement from a health store and putting it in his patty. It was suggested to him by someone elses patty mix. I asked him why, and if he is seeing any measurable performance differences, hes said "who the heck knows!! its cheap and it cant hurt, lol" That pretty much sums up the response from all beekeepers using probiotics in their patty.

>>Maybe innoculating a wet pattie can show some results even if it is from the pattie fermenting.<<

That is an extremely interesting angle and a relatively easy one to conduct a small trial on.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

I still think enzymes are a better fit always looking for different ideas ran across this.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Where do you think the enzymes cone from?


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

Enzymes do occur naturaly or produced by yeast or bacterial action. The adding of enzymes just takes probiotics out of the question. If the probiotic are inactive or die then enzymes are not produced. Heating soy flour is to make a certain enzyme inactive.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I appreciate the complexity of honey bee nutrition. It is the reason why I like to deffer to others who know more to help me understand. We hire a farm nutritionist to help developed suitable feed rations. Everything is laid on the table with cattle nutrition; I appreciate this is more difficult to be done with honeybees. 

They are selling us a probiotic and prebiotic product to condition the animals stomach and digestive tract. The problem with the whole concept is that we have no way of actually measuring its efficacy so trust of the salesman falls into the equation. We are buying into their overall health package, cost is very little. 

So my question is, what we know about the honeybee and what we know about all the complexities and inconsistent variables associated with the bees seasonal development; is it possible to 'condition' the bees food, stomach and guts to provide benefit? 
It will be interesting to see the results of studies into that very question.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

Ian
Does your nutritionist recommend any enzymes?


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

davidsbees said:


> Ian
> Does your nutritionist recommend any enzymes?


Good question.
Why would the nutritionist do that? Or, why not? Could you please elaborate? Thanks.
A time and a place for everything...yes?


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

I've seen enzymes for livestock.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Thanks for replying, David.

Yes, there are enzymes for livestock. Many. 
Some very smart folks, just like those from CanadaBio, are selling them. There are others too.
Yes indeed, every livestock industry out there, uses them in one form or another. Sometimes by themselves, sometimes in combination with other "stuff".

Talking about CanadaBio, the whole line up of their livestock enzymes...catchy names I might add...are "designed/configured/combined" for specific animals. Namely,Pig, Chicken,Turkey, Cows and Fish. Some, specifically for single type of animal...some that go across the board. Why no bees there? Rhetorical question, but fell free to elaborate.

Now, the question for you, please, why do *you*, or your nutritionist ( if you have one) think they work in your bees? Or in bees in general.

What I am thinking of...is not in the lines of..."because they do". 

I see you are selling protein supplements yourself. Nice label you have. I like it. Since you do not mention enzymes on your label, I assume they are not there. Do you recommend to the folks buying the supplement from you to use/add enzymes?

When they ask you, why David? Why the enzymes?
What do you tell them. Seriously, I might just call you and ask you. What are you gonna advise me?


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

Yes I do put enzymes in my protein, the enzymes are geared to the ingredients like soy, pea, proteins and more.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

davidsbees said:


> Yes I do put enzymes in my protein, the enzymes are geared to the ingredients like soy, pea, proteins and more.


Which enzymes do you use and do you find them helpful?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

camero7 said:


> Which enzymes do you use and do you find them helpful?


Yeah.... Which ones????


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## Matt Beekman (Dec 15, 2007)

davidsbees said:


> Yes I do put enzymes in my protein, the enzymes are geared to the ingredients like soy, pea, proteins and more.


Yeah.... Which ones????


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Most enzymes needed for metabolic reactions are produced by the organism and can be very specific. Some vitamins and minerals are called "coenzymes". They are necessary for the enzyme to function. Vitamins and minerals are supplemented in diets because some are not produced by the organism or are unavailable available at optimal levels in their diet.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Good point Dr. Latshaw.

What are your thoughts on, why these fine folks out there in the world of supplements, are not coming out with a formula 
specifically designed for the Mighty Bee? Is that not possible...or is it too hard?

We got all the other critters walking this fine world of ours somehow "conditioned" to do just that. We'll provide the food, with whatever food has in it...then, add, or balance out what it does not have and call it the day. 

We've been pushing hard at it, using genetics and the modern science at our disposal increasing "outputs", "throughput" and "yields" to levels unheard of in less than a generation ago.

Why not the the same for the bee? 

I mean you also study, try and sell supplements yourself. For the bees that is.

Thanks.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

Wow this thread got busy while I was busy with the bees and working on the air ride GN trailer. I use over 9 enzymes protease, amylase, cellulase, lipase, glucanase and Invertase to name a few. If you want to know what they do just google it. Enzymes are good a what they do!


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

apis maximus said:


> Good point Dr. Latshaw.
> 
> What are your thoughts on, why these fine folks out there in the world of supplements, are not coming out with a formula
> specifically designed for the Mighty Bee? Is that not possible...or is it too hard?
> ...


Apis, just to be clear I enjoy working in the area of honey bee nutrition, but have to defer to my dad on many of the bio chemistry portions of nutrition. Honey bees are a very tiny segment of agriculture. I do not know of any honey bee nutritionists. Unfortunately it seems like marketing plays a big role in realm of pre/probiotics. Why is it that they are more popular in the human market than animal market. Perhaps efficacy is more easily determined in the animal industry? Perhaps catch phrases draw consumers in? It's not that probiotics are new or that adding enzymes is a novel approach, but rather growers want results from adding products to their feed. Increased feed intake, efficiency, or whatever they are searching for.

David,

Why cellulase?


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

My thought is that it might help in breaking down the shell of the pollen grain it also helps in breaking down of polysaccharides and beta-d-glucans.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

JSL said:


> Apis, just to be clear I enjoy working in the area of honey bee nutrition, but have to defer to my dad on many of the bio chemistry portions of nutrition. Honey bees are a very tiny segment of agriculture. I do not know of any honey bee nutritionists. Unfortunately it seems like marketing plays a big role in realm of pre/probiotics. Why is it that they are more popular in the human market than animal market. Perhaps efficacy is more easily determined in the animal industry? Perhaps catch phrases draw consumers in? It's not that probiotics are new or that adding enzymes is a novel approach, but rather growers want results from adding products to their feed. Increased feed intake, efficiency, or whatever they are searching for.


Thanks for the reply Dr. Latshaw.

I know you are a very busy man and I appreciate the kindness you show, by coming on this forum and sharing your thoughts and your questions with all of us.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Apis,

Thanks for the kind words.

David,

Thanks for the explanation. Digesting cellulose is a challenge, even for animals that are fermenters/ruminants. Digestibility is rather low. It is a pretty involved process to break up the tightly connected bonds in cellulose structures. This is part of why we use them to make paper products, they hold together really well.


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