# I'm starting to think that black plastic frames and queen excluders are from satan.



## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

The reason being is:

This year I made up some 5 frame nucs using a combination of two frames of brood and some black plastic frames that I bought from another beekeeper a year ago. Well I made the mistake of letting these guys sit in the boxes for about a month and a half before looking in on them. Come to find out they decided it would be better to build their own foundation and attach it to the sides of the frames. Now it's not just honey I have to deal with but brood as well. 

And here's even more proof.

This year because I didn't have enough money and resources to split all my bees I figured I'd have a go at making some orange blossom honey. Found a nice location in Reedley, CA just as the bloom was starting to show. A fellow beekeeper friend suggested what seamed at the time like a brilliant idea of putting the excluders and supers on the bees before I move them in. Turns out that between my old forklift and the disc ground I was almost able to knock off just about every super and lid I had Well it's been three weeks now and I grabbed my extra buckets and even stopped to get more figuring I'd go down and see about taking some honey. No such luck. Seams the bees thought the metal queen excluders was the lid because out of 36 only 9 had started to put some nectar into the supers. The rest of them had big full frames of honey in the upper brood chambers and very little brood. The lower brood box had brood all the way out to the outer frames and it seams to me that the bees dropped in numbers.

Whats your thoughts?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Lots of beekeepers are successful with black plastic frames. I use them exclusively in the brood area myself.


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## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

Somebody did a "study" on this and concluded that QE are also Honey excluders. The only time I'd think about using a QE is if I need to keep the queen to one area, and not for that long.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Is this the study you're thinking about?
http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/jerry-hayes/queen-excluder-or-honey-excluder/
It actually gives you a great way to use excluders with a top entrance.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Putting un drawn plastic above a queen excluder is often a problem. Stale plastic that may even be unwaxed is also not appealing to bees. They will often hang their own free form comb from the frame edges.

Did you reset frame spacing after the rough handling? There are a few things about that experiment that may have hurt your success.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A poor carpenter often blames his tools.


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## jfmcree (Mar 10, 2014)

Thank you for digging up the excellent article for reference. Are there recommended thicknesses for the spacer to create the upper entrance? 3/8"? I did not see dimensions in the article.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> A poor carpenter often blames his tools.


Ohhhhh! Grumpy this morning?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Experiences like this are what give excluders the bad reputation they have with some folks. Perhaps they should come with instructions. Putting on an excluder topped with a box of (I'm guessing) uncoated foundation is almost never going to work. The hive needs to be strong, it needs to be on a pretty strong flow and it needs to have some drawn comb mixed in.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No more than usual. You?  Just the first thing that popped into my mind when I read the OP.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> Experiences like this are what give excluders the bad reputation they have with some folks. Perhaps they should come with instructions. Putting on an excluder topped with a box of (I'm guessing) uncoated foundation is almost never going to work. The hive needs to be strong, it needs to be on a pretty strong flow and it needs to have some drawn comb mixed in.


Oh, come on Jim. You don't really think that someone should know how to use a tool before they use it, do you?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Wow, you are grumpy today Mark


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Mark has studiously _avoided _wrestling with a certain _bird _for a couple of weeks now, even when provoked with that '_drinking too early_' comment. 

Perhaps that is a grumpiness contributing factor .... :lpf:


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

I think plastic gets a very bad rap, undeservedly so here on beesource. It's one of those things, if you read it enough times you will start to believe it, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. I posted some results of my own side by side testing in this thread a couple days ago.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?309940-Plastic-Foundation

My totally unscientific conclusion after experimenting for a couple of years now, when conditions are good, the bees will build out anything, and when conditions are not good, they wont build out anything. A box full of empty frames is always going to get one or two built badly, usually out to the edges or in spots where the frames aren't pushed tight together. This is particularly frustrating for the newbie, because said newbie is leery of pushing frames tight together for fear of squishing a few bees.

But beekeeping is local, and different locales require different methods. We dont have SHB, so the plastic frames are fine for us. If we had a serious problem with SHB, I'd probably rethink the plastic frames, and go for wood with plastic foundation in an attempt to minimize SHB hidey holes. Then again, maybe not, I wouldn't make up my mind till I tried it, because one thing I have learned after a few years reading here on beesource. Just because I've read it hundreds of times, doesn't make it true.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

camero7 said:


> Lots of beekeepers are successful with black plastic frames. I use them exclusively in the brood area myself.



I had a swarm move into a nuc and wow did they do an awesome job on them.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Sovek said:


> Somebody did a "study" on this and concluded that QE are also Honey excluders. The only time I'd think about using a QE is if I need to keep the queen to one area, and not for that long.



I second that. They work great for making splits.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Mark has studiously _avoided _wrestling with a certain _bird _for a couple of weeks now, even when provoked with that '_drinking too early_' comment.
> 
> Perhaps that is a grumpiness contributing factor .... :lpf:



What! No link, Rader?


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

> Did you reset frame spacing after the rough handling? There are a few things about that experiment that may have hurt your success.



It's a 2.5 hour trip both ways so I double checked everything before leaving.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_Bee Bliss_ - just for you: :shhhh: http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...pers&p=1249792&highlight=drinking#post1249792



... _bottoms up! _...


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> Experiences like this are what give excluders the bad reputation they have with some folks. Perhaps they should come with instructions. Putting on an excluder topped with a box of (I'm guessing) uncoated foundation is almost never going to work. The hive needs to be strong, it needs to be on a pretty strong flow and it needs to have some drawn comb mixed in.


It seems pretty straight forward. Put the excluder below where you don't want brood. I haven't read the article yet but this is my understanding of how to use one. Please let me know if this is wrong.

I made it a point to select only the strongest bees for orange blossom and the others I split for nucs. These bees were feed while they were in almonds and again in cherries. It was a pretty big gamble and I wanted the best outcome I could get. Also, most of the supers had fully drawn comb. Thats why it was so disappointing to see that they didn't move up into them.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

camero7 said:


> Is this the study you're thinking about?
> http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/jerry-hayes/queen-excluder-or-honey-excluder/
> It actually gives you a great way to use excluders with a top entrance.


Using a QE below a top entrance as outlined in the article surely must have an effect on a hive's ability to swarm if the queen is locked inside via the excluder. Is this a good or bad side effect that must be considered?


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Tim KS said:


> Using a QE below a top entrance as outlined in the article surely must have an effect on a hive's ability to swarm if the queen is locked inside via the excluder.


I dont think the bees clue into the detail that queen cant get thru the excluder. I saw this very clearly in one of my experiments last spring, excluder over a single with a honey super above that. The outer frames all packed with nectar and some capping, but the center 3 frames were mostly polished cells ready for a queen to lay, except for the detail she couldn't move up to lay them full. Even when they started backfilling in the brood nest below, they kept those cells polished above the excluder, and were not putting nectar in them. It was an interesting learning experience watching how that colony progressed, and I eventually gave them another deep box below the excluder. After I did that, the 3 frames in the center of the first super above the excluder started to get filled with nectar almost immediately.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

My next step is to drill a 3/4'' hole into the front of the super. Since my bees are stacked on pallets would this be a good idea or should I shim them?


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## Royal Bee Supply (Jan 21, 2015)

People overthink the queen excluder thing to much. They work great if, you have upper entrances. You can slide the top box forward, prop the top or honey super box open a litttle. 1/4" or 3/8" . I sell a inner cover that has the notch already cut into it. Works great. Bees LIKE entrances and lots of them.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Tim KS said:


> Using a QE below a top entrance as outlined in the article surely must have an effect on a hive's ability to swarm if the queen is locked inside via the excluder. Is this a good or bad side effect that must be considered?


You will need a small bottom entrance for drones to escape, otherwise they die in the hive. I use a 3/8" opening when I have excluders on.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

camero7 said:


> Wow, you are grumpy today Mark


I'm sorry. I don't see being blunt and straight forward as grumpy, but I guess it must be since two of you say so. My apologies.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beesohappy said:


> I had a swarm move into a nuc and wow did they do an awesome job on them.


I shook the bees from two AFB infected hives onto 5 wax coated plastic frames last week and then the blackberry bloomed and I now have 5 frames of drawn foundation.

If the OPer would check the Pierco website he would see how Pierco recommends getting their plastic frames drawn. They recommend putting them in between already drawn combs and feeding the colony sugar syrup to stimulate them to draw the foundation.

There should be plenty of places to find out how one uses queen excluders. They are used to keep queens out of areas where you don't want her. If she has been in boxes where you don't want her, get her out of those boxes and install a queen excluder to keep her down below.

Use an excluder when a honey barrier fails. A band of honey in the upper box can keep a queen down where you want her too.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sovek said:


> Somebody did a "study" on this and concluded that QE are also Honey excluders. The only time I'd think about using a QE is if I need to keep the queen to one area, and not for that long.


Tell that to friends of mine who run queen excluders above a deep and medium brood nest with 6 to 10 mediums for honey above the excluder. Lots of guys do that.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

camero7 said:


> You will need a small bottom entrance for drones to escape, otherwise they die in the hive. I use a 3/8" opening when I have excluders on.



Is this so the drones can get out or is this in the honey super so the field bees have a way of going right into the honey super?


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## Kakalakee (Apr 24, 2014)

camero7 said:


> You will need a small bottom entrance for drones to escape, otherwise they die in the hive. I use a 3/8" opening when I have excluders on.


Why not just keep a bottom entrance and a top entrance above the QE? I'm struggling to understand why I'd block my bottom entrance if I'm going to turn around and drill a drone hole? Or are you suggesting what I'm suggesting - keeping a small lower and having a top entrance above the QE?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What's the point of having a bottom exit and a top exit? Are you going to be out there making sure that the worker bees know they aren't supposed to use the lower exit? I don't see the need or real purpose of an upper entrance.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

beesohappy said:


> Is this so the drones can get out or is this in the honey super so the field bees have a way of going right into the honey super?


No bottom entrance as a drone escape if you have an excluder on.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

camero7 said:


> Is this the study you're thinking about?
> http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/jerry-hayes/queen-excluder-or-honey-excluder/
> It actually gives you a great way to use excluders with a top entrance.



Hopefully this will make a difference.
I spent the better part of the day shimming the supers just like the picture shows and reduced the bottom opening down to about 3/8''. I guess time will tell. 

Wait a minute. Now that I'm here looking at the diagram I'm thinking I should have shimmed the lid so the bees have to go down into the super instead of going up into the super. Can anyone verify if there's a difference. The flow is on and this just might help me redeem myself as a beekeeper.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

beesohappy said:


> My next step is to drill a 3/4'' hole into the front of the super. Since my bees are stacked on pallets would this be a good idea or should I shim them?



I went with shimming in case anyone's curious.


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## Royal Bee Supply (Jan 21, 2015)

You want the field bees coming in and out of the honey supers not going through the bottom boxes. Thats how you dont slow down the honey from being stored in the top boxes.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Royal Bee Supply said:


> You want the field bees coming in and out of the honey supers not going through the bottom boxes. Thats how you dont slow down the honey from being stored in the top boxes.



So does it make a difference if the shims are under the super or should I put them under the lid?


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## Royal Bee Supply (Jan 21, 2015)

Doesn't matter. Just an upper entrance.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Royal Bee Supply said:


> Doesn't matter. Just an upper entrance.



Cool, Thank you!


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

I'm at a loss, it seems I just can't catch a break. 

I reduced the bottom entrance down to 3/8'' and shimmed the top super above the queen excluder giving them a front top entrance and still no honey. Today I was in a yard checking on some of the weaker hives and was shocked because they were booming. I was excited but at the same time a little bummed out at the fact that there wasn't any honey or bees in the supers. As I stood there wondering what to do next I noticed the returning field bees would hit the landing board and if the bottom 3/8'' entrance was busy then they would just walk over to the other weaker hive. 

So what am I doing wrong? Please help!


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

To do it right you have to open an upper entrance weeks before you start supering so that some of the field bees will orient to it - then you don't need to reduce the bottom entrance. It's pretty hard to get oriented foragers to go from a bottom to a top entrance - In my limited experience.

If you need to get foundation drawn in honey supers you can just leave out the excluder until the flow is winding down then use bee repellant and a fume board to push the queens down then insert the excluders. Any brood emerges and gets back filled. A few will probably raise a queen in the honey supers though and turn some of your honey into the nicest brood you ever saw. 

It's more work but it works well for me - just a hobbyist though, and I know labor is a big expense.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Good suggestion. Thank you. The excluders are coming off unless someone can talk me out of it.


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