# Spring Autopsy



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Treatment free is just what it sounds like. No treatments. If you have the genetics and the combs are clean, then the bees should be able to manage varroa with no further intervention. The exception is if you are in an area surrounded by beekeepers that treat and they have a large population of mites. Horizontal transfer will move mites into your colonies where they can reach levels that overcome the defenses of resistant bees.

Best suggestion is to get more treatment free bees and hopefully more than 2 hives. The alternative is to get treated bees and start treating, or perhaps requeen them with a mite resistant queen.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

the ny bee wellness web site has good pictures to show various problems. your pictures show a hive that has dwindled because of viruses. some of these viruses are spread by mites some are not spread by varroa, the result is the same. the moldy spot on slide #1 is the last of the cluster, too small to survive. there is nothing showing that will hurt the next bee colony. if you are not going to repopulate right away then protect your comb from wax moths.


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## nediver (May 26, 2013)

Humidity as well. I don't typically see mold on deadouts.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i see that warren, pa is pretty far from bath, me.

gracie, have you found anyone closer to your location having success keeping bees off treatments?

you mentioned having ferals around. i would consider making swarm traps and trying to catch some of those.

i agree with fusion_power that it would be better to have more than two if you can.

treatment free has been relatively easy for us down in the south, i think it's more challenging in the north because of the longer colder winters.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

squarepeg , it is the length of the winters, not the cold. winter season bees can have a shorter life span than needed , mostly from the viruses problems that we have developed the last few years. about 1/3 of these viruses are varroa spread. there are supposed to be at least 20 different ones. maybe 3 or 4 of these viruses are normally present at low to moderate levels, the colony survives. when one virus infects most of the bees the sick bees leave the colony to die. the population drops to near zero, you have a dead-out.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

mathesonequip said:


> it is the length of the winters...


understood. brooding stops here in mid to late october, and the resumes in mid january or so. plus our temps average about 40 degrees through our coldest months so there are opportunities to break cluster and move to and from stores.

it appears that gracie's colonies dwindled past the point of no return, most likely from mites/viruses, which led to them getting stuck on brood and freezing to death. 

overwintering is a whole different ballgame up there compared to down here.


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## gracie_s (Jun 21, 2014)

Fusion_power said:


> Treatment free is just what it sounds like. No treatments. If you have the genetics and the combs are clean, then the bees should be able to manage varroa with no further intervention. The exception is if you are in an area surrounded by beekeepers that treat and they have a large population of mites. Horizontal transfer will move mites into your colonies where they can reach levels that overcome the defenses of resistant bees.
> 
> Best suggestion is to get more treatment free bees and hopefully more than 2 hives. The alternative is to get treated bees and start treating, or perhaps requeen them with a mite resistant queen.


I don't have very many beekeepers in my area...maybe 4 or 5 small operations within a 20 mile radius. I've worked with one extensively, and talked to the others, and to the best of my knowledge they run Italians and treat for mites and other diseases regularly. The beekeeper I worked with used Apistan primarily. I'd like to expand a bit, but I'm in a suburban area and don't have the space for a ton of hives. Do you have any recommendations for mite-resistant queens? Gold Star Honeybees are supposed to be fairly good (and I've been impressed by how docile and productive they are), but I'd be willing to buy a queen separately in search of the right genetics.


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## gracie_s (Jun 21, 2014)

Squarepeg, all the beekeepers in my area that I'm aware of use chemical treatments regularly, but don't have much more success than I do (not unusual to lose half their colonies overwinter). I am interested in making swarm traps. I was called for a potential cut out once, but the bees had already been sprayed prior to my arrival. I'll have to read up on swarm traps. I bought a NUC box for that purpose last season, but didn't get into it much.

I think it's true that our winters have us at a disadvantage. This year in particular I've heard we've sustained heavy losses because we had a long, tough winter with a few unseasonably warm periods throughout. I wonder if it was enough to cause the girls to leave the cluster. I used a quilt box this year (an extra super packed with wood shavings with burlap underneath) to deal with excess moisture, just like last year, so I wasn't anticipating humidity as an issue. I do think I wouldn't have lost the colonies if they hadn't been weakened by varroa and associated viruses. I guess I just have to figure out a better way to nip the varroa in the bud...if that's possible without chemicals. I might _know_ that a non-resistant colony dying out is good for the species as a whole, but it still sucks to have them be _my_ hives!


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## Notapro (Dec 16, 2014)

Gracie, protect your comb as previously suggested and get a bottle of lemon grass oil. Put a couple drops of lemon grass oil on a paper towel and put this in a zip lock bag. We the bag in your dead out hive and you may catch ourself a swarm. I have caught six in the last 3 years using nuc boxes that are supposed to be too small. Based on the activity at one of my traps the last few days, number seven is not far away!

Good luck!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

First, full disclosure, I am not a TF beekeeper. But can add a few simple things. First, the pic below is snipped from your own pic in the opening post. From it, we can deduce the hive likely died from varroa mites as per your own conclusion. On the bottom right of the pic we see a bee partly emerged from it's cell, with it's tongue sticking out. This is very typical of bee larvae weakened by more than one foundress mite and associated viruses. They get part way out of the cell but are too weak to get all the way out and die with their tongue poking out. On the left we see some partially uncapped brood cells. This tells us that this brood died before the adult bees did, not after. It died, then the bees partially uncapped them as an attempt to clean up. This is also an indication of death by varroa mites. The very small and sad little cluster of dead bees is also very typical of a hive that died of mites. Sick bees dying leave the hive as a sacrificial act to try to save the hive. The cluster gets down to around the size shown in your pic, at which point they cannot function or maintain warmth, and all bees in the remaining little cluster die.

That you lost 100% of your bees was just bad luck. I don't know what the real losses in your area are but let's say they are 50%. In that case you had a 50 % chance that either hive could die and a 25% chance both would die. So as per the others, your chances of getting at least some through winter alive will be increased by having more hives.

I do not believe your bees were genuine treatment free bees, or at least, not in your environment. Why is simple, they appear to have died of mites. I think you should look to a different supplier for your next new bees.

That you say all other beekepeers in your area treat may be telling you something, there may be a reason they treat, there are areas where nobody has been able to keep bees treatment free. Which should not prevent you from trying, maybe you will be the first. But it's likely to be difficult, and you will probably have to requeen every year, or every second year.

Other than that, you appear to have done quite a bit of research before you started, and have done many of the things that people say are needed to be successful TF.


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