# Combine tiny colony and queenless (?) package?



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

It is not unusual for a beginner to not find eggs in a 12 day package especially on new white comb. So I would not be so quick to declare the package queenless. I would be less inclined to combine a queenright colony with it until I am sure. In bee keeping a hasty decision can create more problems that being sure. Give the comb a close examination with the sun over your shoulder in a few days there may be eggs or larva there then.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

Tenbears said:


> It is not unusual for a beginner


That obvious, huh? 



> to not find eggs in a 12 day package especially on new white comb. So I would not be so quick to declare the package queenless. I would be less inclined to combine a queenright colony with it until I am sure. In bee keeping a hasty decision can create more problems that being sure. Give the comb a close examination with the sun over your shoulder in a few days there may be eggs or larva there then.


The bees did seem pretty calm, and I didn't hear any "queenless roaring," though I'm not entirely sure what that sounds like anyway.

I should have brushed the bees off the comb to look more thoroughly, but I was afraid of damaging the new wax. I'm going back to the bee yard this afternoon to install another package anyway, so I'll bring a brush and take a closer look.

I made myself a nuc combining board, so if I convince myself that I'm truly queenless, then I can combine.

I'll have the queen for the new package with me; if I were to lay her queen cage on the top bars of the questionable package for a few moments, what would I see if they were queenright vs. queenwrong?

If they're already queenright, can they damage her through the cage?


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> I'll have the queen for the new package with me; if I were to lay her queen cage on the top bars of the questionable package for a few moments, what would I see if they were queenright vs. queenwrong?
> 
> If they're already queenright, can they damage her through the cage?


Ah, I see that Michael Palmer has demonstrated this!


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

Please compare the Michael Palmer video, above, to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D9DVAfoKYI&t=1m55s

(sorry; I keep forgetting to present the scene to my GoPro. I should have taken it off and put it right next to the queen cage to make it clearer).

So from this part of the video it looks like they want her around (e.g. they're queenless), but later the boys swore up and down that they saw eggs on the comb.

I thought there might have been eggs, which is why I had them look, but it was getting dark (we were in complete shade by that point), and I couldn't tell whether it was eggs or the "Y" from the other side of the comb.

So I did _not_ requeen/combine today, and I'll look again next weekend, during the day when it's lighter outside. I just hope it's not too late by then.

Also, I noticed that nearly all the comb in the hive was full of syrup, and there was only a tiny section that was even available to lay in.

How do the bees decide how to allocate comb space?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> So should I combine? Or should I give the package another week? I don't want to end up with a laying worker hive! And I don't really have another strong colony to donate a frame of eggs from.


At the rate they are festooning they do not look queenless. Pollen coming in the door is another clue. It does not take a strong colony to donate, an outer frame somewhere likely has only a few eggs/larva. Plenty for a test.

Cutout; your comb will be better if you keep it tight and lined up. Warmer cluster = faster growth. Empties only between solid good frames. That double comb frame is going to be a nuisance. Good queen hideout too.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

Well, I checked Colony 5 on Friday, and I have laying workers. It was the classic pattern, with 2-3 eggs per cell, stuck to the sides or lying askew.

I told my kid about this on Saturday, and he said, "That's what I saw last week, too. I just didn't know it was bad thing. You asked if I saw eggs, and I saw eggs, so I said Yes!"

Note to self--be a lot more specific when asking Jr. questions!

Per Michael Bush's "panacea" page I wanted to donate a frame of eggs and open brood from one of my other hives, but of the two strongest, Colony 1 has or had suspected EFB, and the Colony 2 just happens to be undergoing an unexpected supersedure right now. So Colony 2 doesn't have any open brood right now, just a capped queen cell and lots of capped brood.

Colony 1 seems to have responded very well to the 3 doses of Terramycin, and I didn't really have any other options, so I rolled the dice and took a frame from it. All its brood is up in its medium box, so I had to add a medium box to Colony 5 just to have a place to donate the frame. So now my undersized, queenless, laying worker colony has way too much space. At least there's no comb for SHBs to hide in, yet. Or should I have just hung a medium frame in a deep box and worried about bad comb later?

By next week I might have a donatable deep frame from my collected swarm, Colony 3, and in two weeks I'm hoping Colony 2 will be laying again, so maybe I'll be able to put things right then.

How often does the weekly "eggs and brood" cure a laying worker hive?

One thing's for sure--beekeeping cures hubris!


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