# smallcell advice please



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I know normal bees will mess up smallcell on the first time around. But what are the chances of shaking carni or russian regular sized bees on the drawn smallcell comb?

Instant regression. Large cell bees will happily use natural sized comb.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Thanks MB.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

Bees reared on large cell comb will use the smaller cell comb without a hitch. I've never known them to rework the comb itself. So just do it.

Any colony, whether raised on large or small cell comb, will only draw out so much small cell *foundation* and then rework the rest of the foundation to suit their needs. In a full size colony, the bees will draw out about 6 frames of small cell before they start reworking the rest. They will attempt to build a natural broodnest structure in spite of a beekeepers single cell size focus.

When an unalterable small cell sized plastic foundation is used, the bees will again only draw out so much small cell comb. And then will actually prefer to build a natural broodnest structure, with its varying cell size, between the sheets of plastic foundation rather than using the foundation itself.

This may explain, in part, why that green small cell foundation was such a flop. And maybe why Mann Lake is discounting their standard plastic frame.

A typical large cell beekeeper, who probably wouldn't understand the importance and function of the broodnest structure, would throw a box of small cell foundation on top a hive. It would poorly drawn out and the small cell experiment would be declared a failure. Small cell beekeeping and cell size would get the blame.

A typical small cell beekeeper, probably lacking the same understanding, would throw a box of small cell foundation on and get the same results. But he would rotate and cull comb to get supers filled with acceptable comb, an expensive and time consuming process. His unregressed bee would get the blame. 

Regards
Dennis


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

An interesting perspective, which probably has some applications beyond beekeeping...


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## hummingberd (Aug 26, 2006)

A typical small cell beekeeper, probably lacking the same understanding, would throw a box of small cell foundation on and get the same results. But he would rotate and cull comb to get supers filled with acceptable comb, an expensive and time consuming process. His unregressed bee would get the blame. 

Regards
Dennis[/QUOTE]

Dennis, could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you're "saying." I am planning on regressing, and I don't want to make uneducated mistakes!!! I'd like to know what I'm doing before I go in. Thanks!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*How could you lose your small cell colony?*

I thought small cell was the silver bullet. No mites, no secondary diseases, cute small bees in big booming hives....more honey than you could wish for......


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Hummingberd and Everyone,

Bees on all small cell comb have all the of the advantages posted above with few disadvantages. But getting those all small cell frames is not easy, cheap or fast. The bees only want just so much of it and will rework any additional foundation to a larger size.

It takes much effort and time to get the full flexibility of interchangeable, removable frames. Many new combs, about 30%, will be culled. I estimate that for a beekeeper with a few hives it will take around four years to achieve. With a large commercial outfit, it would take decades. Maybe that's why so many small cell beekeepers buy those expensive foundation mills and spend the winter over the wax pot.

Most small cell beekeepers believe that when they get a true, fully regressed small bee, these problems disappear. So they start a rigorous and ruthless selection/breeding program. Feral bees are pulled from trees. Areas of influence are established (is this even possible in most of North America?). And queens are mated at odd hours and times of the year. This is another decades long process.

And yet, I've run and observed comb from bees that have gone through the decades long regression process noted above. And they drawout comb the same way as any other bee. Maybe after all that work and all those decades even those Lusbees weren't fully regressed ;>).

If this approach(regression) to small cell beekeeping is so natural, why is it so hard? Why should beekeepers fight against the bee's natural propensities rather than work with them? 

Running bees on small cell comb has those advantages. But the few disadvantages and the onerous nature of the process are often lost sight of in the terminology, manipulations and caveats associated with small cell beekeeping.

Regards
Dennis


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

*Heretic*

Dennis, you're a heretic! Hows it feel being apostate?

BTW - good luck in the tropics

Keith


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## inga (Feb 21, 2007)

D. Murrell said:


> Any colony, whether raised on large or small cell comb, will only draw out so much small cell *foundation* and then rework the rest of the foundation to suit their needs. In a full size colony, the bees will draw out about 6 frames of small cell before they start reworking the rest. They will attempt to build a natural broodnest structure in spite of a beekeepers single cell size focus.


Dennis, thanks much for this, as well as what you've published on your web site.

It appears to me that your observations harmonize with those of Michael Bush who allows the bees to build a lot of natural comb.

The critical thing seems to be that the center of the brood nest be small cell, as it would be in a natural brood nest. Using HSC there will allow the bees to regress to a smaller size more quickly than allowing them to simply build their own comb without foundations. At least that's what I'm betting on.  Since I've just bought some HSC for the purpose, I'm thinking that I can make it stretch a bit further than the manufacturer possibly intended.  

If I were a commercial beekeeper, I would certainly experiment with putting in wired frames without foundations to test the viability of the concept. The first season, these hives would need more attention for varroa control. But the second and third season, they should be less labor-intensive, even without the hard chemicals.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--The bees only want just so much of it and will rework any additional foundation to a larger size.--DM

This is natural for bees to create some cells large for bee size variance, but I have not noticed my small cell bees to do this to any great degree. 

--Most small cell beekeepers believe that when they get a true, fully regressed small bee, these problems disappear.--DM

I don‘t know what ‘most small cell beekeepers believe‘. But from my experience, it seems they are having far less problems than before regression.

--So they start a rigorous and ruthless selection/breeding program.--DM

Isn’t all good breeding ruthless to the poor performers POV ? 

--Feral bees are pulled from trees.--DM

I have never 'pulled a feral bee from a tree' that was not in danger of being destroyed. In fact, I leave the ferals remain in the tree section to live out there existence in the tree once I bring it home. If on a bee call, I encourage citizens to leave the bees live their lives in the tree.

--Areas of influence are established (is this even possible in most of North America?).--DM

Do breeders establish an area of influence when they maintain drone colonies and large apiaries? 

Years back, Bill Gafford new the importance of areas of influence, and used to provide free queens neighbors in his immediate area. And this worked very nicely for him.

I have identified areas of influence near me where the feral bees in one area tend to have similar characteristics. While 25 miles away, ferals caught in that location will NOT have these same characteristics, suggesting that areas of genetic influence exist in my area.

--And queens are mated at odd hours and times of the year. This is another decades long process.--DM

I mate my queens in May and June, is that an odd time of year?

--If this approach(regression) to small cell beekeeping is so natural, why is it so hard? Why should beekeepers fight against the bee's natural propensities rather than work with them?--DM

The feral bees I collect draw 4.9 very nicely. Never had to fight woodland ferals to draw 4.9 correctly. 

Best Wishes
Joe


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The feral bees I collect draw 4.9 very nicely. Never had to fight woodland ferals to draw 4.9 correctly. 

Me neither.


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*In Ignorance dwell i*

Hi all,

I have a great deal of respect to what you have to say Dennis. I had Dee measure the Mann Lake and according to her, those fit only as 5mm because of cell base depth, but the nucs last year did okay on them. That said, it has long been held that bees like the drone brood on almost every frame in the brood nest. I can not do that with plastic frames, so i am left with the problem of providing drone combs. I think that what, from what i understand of all of this thus far, is that i will use a center nest of four 4.9, and i may stick with 5 at first because my lines are crosses and will step down a couple combs per brood nest per year. The outside frams i may do in that tried and true way of wired wax foundation. 

I keep going back and forth on if i will graft up here or use the Case method(modified). If i graft then i need black plastic so i can see the larv. I will use the green frames for drone brood from drone lines and add that to drone colonies up the road a tad. Even so Dennis, i agree, it takes a number of years for an area, however remote, to arrive at balance

As far as any system being without problems, from what was mentioned it could be queenlessness that emptied a small cell colony. A dead queen ( which is a natural event in a queens life) will not lay in any sized comb and a few weeks of spring in, the bees won't work anything. In twenty solid years of bees 66-85, i never had a year where i had ten or more colonies that did not lose a queen in winter. We can assist bees through winter, but even the best conditions can take a winter toll. This winter was highly varied, warm, cold, warm...that is more stressful on a colony than a constant cold.

I plan to dump the packages directly on the Mann Lake frames and not tell them what they are drawing. The nucs this year are going to be handled as i did last year, switching frames towards the middle to draw out. The Russians drew it and the Olympic queens drew it out, this year the black and caucasians will be on it, Italians and carniolans and another hybrid line. I promise i will report any difficulty i encounter. I sure hope Mann Lake keeps putting those frames on sale Dennis, that saves me in the long run. 

For now the Mann Lake will be the base, the sides will be larger and i hope the bees will winter like these two Olympics did. The Russian headed to the trees last year, but i suspect that is thier nature. If all Russians swarm that easily i may need to learn a new beekeeping style for them alone. I'll test ten next year for a baseline, but after speaking with Kirk Webster regarding this feature of Russians i am not sold on that line. They raise queen cells as a hobby it would seem. The Olympics uncapped old combs the Russians were on and cleaned out mites, there is something to be said for breed in this small cell plan beyond cell size alone. 

I don't think this is a one thing fits all problems, i think it is a combination that works for the individual beekeeper in light of their own potential, environmental potential in lew of the changes in the larger sphere of climate change, chemical environments beyond ones controls and viable pollens and nectars available in a given location in relation to all else. Boil that down and it is simple farming or agriculture pursiuts. If you need to plow, it will rain.

Chrissy


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I tend to leave local ferals alone if possible. If they survive for any lenght of time they make good drone rescouces. I am begining to think that the only place you really need sc is within the center of the broodnest proper. I have noticed that they tend to increase cell size on frames that are further out. I used mann lake frames as well last year and had mixed results, with some making it alright, and some not.....just the nature of the beast I guess .


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

*so what do I put in the honey supers?*

This is a related question that I have asked before but I still don't understand, so I guess I'll ask a dumb question twice.

I am just starting out, and I am using small cell foundation and getting small cell bees (already regressed). I plan on just using small cell foundation in the brood area, except for a couple of frames of drone foundation.

What should I put in the honey supers, assuming that I make it to that point? At least starting out, I would prefer not to use foundationless there, because I'm afraid they'll make a mess or that I'll damage it extracting. But would they really prefer something bigger than small cell? Will they just rework it to the size they want? I know Michael Bush has referred to 7/11 (I think that's what it's called), but that looks like it's for comb honey and would be thin. Can that stuff be cross-wired and extracted? 

Thanks,

ndvan


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What should I put in the honey supers, assuming that I make it to that point?

Personally I'd use small cell or foundationless.

>At least starting out, I would prefer not to use foundationless there, because I'm afraid they'll make a mess or that I'll damage it extracting.

You can put wire in if it makes you feel better. I don't and I extract.

> But would they really prefer something bigger than small cell?

They will draw their own comb for honey a bit larger than they draw for brood usually. That doesn't mean you can't give them small cell foundation.

>Will they just rework it to the size they want?

Maybe or they might draw it 4.9mm.

>I know Michael Bush has referred to 7/11 (I think that's what it's called), but that looks like it's for comb honey and would be thin.

It is for comb honey and it is thin. I used to use it before I went to small cell, but really haven't since. It keeps the queen out of the supers without using an excluder.

> Can that stuff be cross-wired and extracted?

The small cell is also thin. Yes it can be wired and extracted. I have used it unwired for years and extracted it, but if wire makes you feel better it's not that hard to do.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Ok, I guess I'll stick small cell in there and see what they do.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Do you collectors of feral bees see much of a difference betweens "woodland" vs other forms of feral bees? I'm interested not just in cell size but other traits as well.

Hal


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you collectors of feral bees see much of a difference betweens "woodland" vs other forms of feral bees? I'm interested not just in cell size but other traits as well.

I'm not sure what the difference would be. Mine are all from farmland. There are no woods, other than small wood lots here and there and rough land that wasn't worth clearing.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Aspera said:


> Do you collectors of feral bees see much of a difference betweens "woodland" vs other forms of feral bees? I'm interested not just in cell size but other traits as well.
> 
> Hal




Yes. As far as looks, the woodland and remote types in my area are much more uniform and have similar markings. This is an important difference, that I use as a tool to distinguish from ferals having too much domestic influence. As an effective means of determining the best ferals, I assess all my swarms during the 18 weeks of colony growth stage in my poorest forage location, where the nearest good forage may be to the SW 1.5 miles away. When placed under the same conditions, side by side, the woodland ferals caught in traps will on average assess better than the ferals caught from swarm calls from the human populated areas that are near to domestic beekeeping. 

The woodland ferals apparently are not bothered by less plentiful forage, and easily manage to collect more honey and have better brood production during the period that I assess them. Other swarms will perform to a lesser degree and sometimes even show signs of stress impacting colony functions, especially fecundity. I suspect that woodland ferals have higher developed foraging, scouting, and distance abilities (aka wing power, keen sense of smell etc. ref, Bro Adam). helping them to better survey the food source patches within a vast area around its nest, and pooling reconnaissance of its foragers, and using this information to focus its forager force on a few high quality patches within its foraging area (ref. Seeley).

What is very interesting is that some populations of remote type ferals have rebounded much sooner than others. In these early recovery areas, I have found remote ferals that have traits such as grooming tendencies, hygienic behavior or other mite suppression traits expressed to a much higher degree than slow recovery areas. 

I’m sure that natural selection, and breeding between micro populations of ferals will result in traits leveling off somewhat, and some traits loosing out to other more effective combinations of traits. BUT now is the time we should be locating these micro populations of ferals that are exhibiting effective mite suppression traits, because as time passes, they may not be as pronounced OR may escape being noticed by the beekeeper. 

Last season I have noticed a tremendous degree of testing and robbing of my nucs and smaller colonies. Strangely enough, I when I beelined the bees that were testing, it was found to be coming from the woodland ferals, and my feral colonies were not participating. I’m not sure what is going on here, but in these days of colonies succumbing in the fall to varroa, any colony that can identify these failing colonies and rob them out first gaining stores for winter survival, will have a selective advantage. So the ferals here seem to be adapting an extremely competitive nature.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Do you suppose the reason the woodland ferals do better at honey production is that they will fly further than the domestic bees will. Say 2 miles as compared to 1.5 miles?


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

I'm going to throw this question in this thread since its related to small cell. I just split a hive. The new queen is a small cell queen, and the old queen is not. In this hive before I split it, I placed 2 SC frames in each brood box - which is 8 frame mediums, a couple of weeks ago. When I split it, they were drawing the frames pretty well. 

So, I want to know is this. When I add the second brood boxes for both the old queen and the new queen brood boxes, can I go ahead and add Small Cell foundation only with 2 frames in each box of starter strips, and 6 foundation? I really want them to draw out SC foundation, not the large cell that I'm trying to get away from.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

peggjam said:


> Do you suppose the reason the woodland ferals do better at honey production is that they will fly further than the domestic bees will. Say 2 miles as compared to 1.5 miles?


In the wooded area where I assess my swarms, I would have to say that the woodland ferals may be capable of foraging greater distances. Because during the summer lul, the nearest good forage is at least 1.5 miles away. Even though it is well within the foraging range, this would still require a great expenditure of energy to go that distance for nutrition. And colonies not highly developed in pooling reconnaissance of its foragers, and using this information to focus its forager force on a few distant high quality patches, will be stressed to some degree by the task. 

What is interesting, was the difference in performance was very obvious. Woodland ferals had a real nice honey cap and great brood production and seemed not stressed to any degree. Whereas the regular swarms were using up incoming nectar in attempts to maintain minimum brood rearing, and were showing clear signs of stress. 

Could it be that one should expect these results considering that I was placing swarms from the country out of their habitat and into a woodland environment they had not adapted to? YES, but for them to be out competed to the degree they were, was not expected. Might both types of ferals perform equally well in lush farmland? IMO, probably, and the differences might also become indistinguishable. But that one performs better than the other under ‘stress conditions‘, indicates that traits are expressed to a degree not found in the other.

Best Wishes,
Joe


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Joe,

If your hive have greater foraging zeal, does this mean that they also have a greater tendency to rob? I've heard that the two traits cannot be bred apart.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Aspera said:


> Joe,
> 
> If your hive have greater foraging zeal, does this mean that they also have a greater tendency to rob? I've heard that the two traits cannot be bred apart.


I did not notice any robbing events or testing coming from my colonies. I visited all my colonies after noticing my neighbor having major problems with robbing bees. But although all my entrances were still wide open, I could not detect any robbing or testing in my yards. 

Robbing is strangely enough coming from the surrounding woodlands, where only the past 2 or 3 years have the ferals in my immediate surroundings recovered in force as reflected by a marked improvement in brood viability in my colonies the last few seasons and robbers over running my garage when I extract. 

I only made the correlation that woodland ferals do better during colony expansion in 2005 and again in 2006. So based on these observations, I have just this season began to focus trapping efforts only to the woodland areas and remote farmlands while slating for requeen or giving away other swarms that do not have the markings I am looking for. 

I only have a couple of these woodland feral types. But I’m still in the collection stage and breeding from this line has been put on the back burner due to me wanting to secure a grooming trait found in a remote farmland feral. The groomer types are the ferals that have been doing the best for me and I need to increase the numbers to reduce the risk of loosing the line should a catastrophe happen.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Cyndi said:


> ...
> 
> When I add the second brood boxes for both the old queen and the new queen brood boxes, can I go ahead and add Small Cell foundation only with 2 frames in each box of starter strips, and 6 foundation? I really want them to draw out SC foundation, not the large cell that I'm trying to get away from.


Hello Cyndi,

Yes you can. 

When they are ready for the second super, pull 2 frames of eggs or young larvae up into the middle of the top super and the rest foundation, and replace the spaces below with 2 foundations positioned between capped brood if you can. This will bait the queen and broodnest up for smaller cell drawing while also discouraging them from simply filling it with nectar.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

*How do you measure grooming behavior?*

Hi Joe,
All of my bees are feral, mostly small-cell colonies from cut-outs and swarm pickups. They are doing very well and I'm thinking of breeding: selecting for low maintenance bees that can take care of themselves while producing a reasonable honey crop. I think grooming behvior is a key characteristic, but don't know how this can be measured in a way that's repeatable across many colonies and over a period of time.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Many successful breeding programs have been based of direct measures of varroa. Such measures would include the percent of brood infected with varroa and the number of mites obtained from a standard soap/ether/sugar roll. Other useful tests would include dead brood removal (pin or liquid N2 test), and the rate of varroa increase when a clean hive is innoculated with a frame of varroa laden brood. Just my 2 cents. Any test should probably be done repeated before deciding to breed the queen.


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

naturebee said:


> Hello Cyndi,
> 
> Yes you can.
> 
> When they are ready for the second super, pull 2 frames of eggs or young larvae up into the middle of the top super and the rest foundation, and replace the spaces below with 2 foundations positioned between capped brood if you can. This will bait the queen and broodnest up for smaller cell drawing while also discouraging them from simply filling it with nectar.


Thanks Naturebee, that's a great idea. I didn't think about moving frames up in the second super. This is even better, then I'll be able to get rid of 2 more frames, leaving only 4.

There is something interesting going on in my other hive that I am trying to regress. I placed 2 frames of SC in each of the brood boxes to start the process. Again, I use mediums for my brood boxes. On the new SC frames, the bees are re-building the comb on the top of the empty foundation, as they draw it out. This is hard to describe...I will try to take a picture of it and post a link in a couple of days. I've never seen anything quite like this and its very interesting. I haven't been able to measure the size comb they are building...I have a feeling it's LC though. These are Italians from Wilbanks. This is my very first hive that I hived from a package in 2005. It's a very strong hive and produced all my honey last year. The other day I requeened it with a new SC queen. I never found the queen again, even after putting an excluder on. I never found new eggs, but I did find lots of brood and larvae. I saw the queen a couple of weeks ago, but think that I killed her when I was searching for her. I've gone through every single frame in this hive 3 times and still can't find the queen. The hive is acting queenless now or just very agitated with me going through the brood nest so much, so I decided to go ahead and put the new SC queen cage in. I'm going to check it tomorrow and see how they are treating the new queen.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Cyndi said:


> Thanks Naturebee, that's a great idea. I didn't think about moving frames up in the second super. This is even better, then I'll be able to get rid of 2 more frames, leaving only 4.


To make sure I am clear.
When I add another box on top. I pull two frames eggs or young larva up together in the middle of the box just added. 2 foundation frames go down below in place of the 2 removed. I recommend they be placed between capped brood, or as near to the age of capped brood that is available.




Cyndi said:


> On the new SC frames, the bees are re-building the comb on the top of the empty foundation, as they draw it out. This is hard to describe...I will try to take a picture of it and post a link in a couple of days.


During the first year of regressing, the bees will happily make abundant worker cells. BUT during the spring in the second year, is an extreme urge arises to make drones. So you may be seeing them building drone cells in the center of a frame, which they will rebuild cells if necessary to accomplish this need.

But the problem arises when the colony chooses to make drone cells in the center of a frame, which is where you want worker cells to be. What I do is, each spring, I provide space for the bees to make drone cells.

You want to keep drone to about 10 to 15 % per frame. This is about the size an area of a pack of cigarettes for a deep frame. What I do each spring is cut a wedge at each bottom corner of each frame about to the proper size, to allow the urge for building drone cells to be satisfied there, and not in the middle of my frames. 

Best Wishes,
Joe


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

db_land said:


> Hi Joe,
> ...I think grooming behvior is a key characteristic, but don't know how this can be measured in a way that's repeatable across many colonies and over a period of time.


Hello DB,

A friend of mine collects mite falls, and picks them up using a small wet paint brush of wet feather so as not to harm them. He separates them in several categories; dents in shell, missing legs, no dents etc. Then he can select from colonies that have this tendency to bite and destroy mites. 

For instance, several missing legs or several dents might be suggestive of a bee manipulating a varroa to destroy it. One missing leg could have occurred by removal of mite by bee, but may not be suggestive of manipulation or intentional destroying the mite.

My friend has suggested that mites with 2 even dents on the shell from the mandibles of a single bee might be suggestive of a bee biting a mite directly off another bee, where as a single dent on the top and bottom might be suggestive of a bee picking a mite off the comb (as a person might grab a coin off the floor from the edge).

The type of grooming I am interested at the moment is \ one that I have found in a population of ferals, and is easily observed on the entrance boards and at the peripheral of the combs. It appears to be a grooming behavior that is apparent in bees of foraging and guard age. It can involve up to 8 bees grooming a single bee. It is also spontaneous, with no solicitation. 

It appears the grooming behavior is a licking type event and I’m not sure if it has value for mite removal. My hypothesis so far is that it is a cleaning event that may be effective in the removal of bacteria and AFB spores etc. But will be doing several tests on the line this June, and will be harvesting varroa for the purpose of infecting bees to video tape the grooming event to see if it is effective against mites.

Best Wishes,
Joe
feralbeeproject.com


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Here's my friend Jims page on mite damage:

http://www.kilty.demon.co.uk/beekeeping/improvement.htm


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

naturebee said:


> To make sure I am clear.
> When I add another box on top. I pull two frames eggs or young larva up together in the middle of the box just added. 2 foundation frames go down below in place of the 2 removed. I recommend they be placed between capped brood, or as near to the age of capped brood that is available.


Thanks Joe, I got it the first time. I tried this the day before yesterday, but was a little bit leary about it since we've had temperatures dropping down to 45 degrees here in the mountains. I was concerned about the brood getting chilled, but I think I have plenty of bees to keep this from happening...we'll see. This weather here is very strange.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

*Grooming behavior*

Joe, thanks for the feedback and the Cornwall link (I wish we were as organized in terms of selecting for mite 'survivability' as those guys appear to be). This is very useful information. A lot of work, but I'll start monitoring a few hives for mite damaging grooming behavior. I've seen the behavior you mention - a group of bees licking/examining a just-landed/returned bee - and always assumed it was bees getting a taste of whatever nectar/pollen the returning bee brought on its' body.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Hello DB

I’m currently studying this line of ferals depicted in the 7 videos on this link: 

http://www.sharkle.com/member/FeralHoneybeeProject

Varroa levels remain extremely low in this line, and they exhibit what I believe to be an extremely intense grooming behavior. Each grooming sequence can last up to 4 minutes, and involve up to 8 bees.

The Tergite Grooming sequences are interesting because it shows the bee getting the attention appeaing to lift its' left side of the 4th tergite just as the bee grooming it is licking that area. 

Varroa prefer to hang out between the 3rd and 4th ventro-lateral tergites of the abdomen, and have a significant preference for the left side of the host. This position would enable the mites to place their mouthparts near to the central portion of the bees' ventriculus. The may allow the mites access to nutrients at higher concentrations than would occur elsewhere in the haemolymph.

Will be moving these colonies to my home apiary where I can set up experiments with some varroa infested bees so I can better observe the behavior, and perhaps video tape the removal of a varroa by grooming.

In earlier experiments, I have determined it not to be inspection behavior , or hostile behavior by observing the behavior with bee nets draped over the colony the previous night to prevent foreign bees from nearing the entrance.

Best Wishes,
Joe


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

*Great videos!*

I really enjoyed the videos and have seen the allogrooming behavior many times. Now that I know what it is, I'll watch more closely. Have you corrolated this behavior with reduced mite populations in those hives exhibiting allogrooming? Thanks, db


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

db_land said:


> I really enjoyed the videos and have seen the allogrooming behavior many times. Now that I know what it is, I'll watch more closely. Have you corrolated this behavior with reduced mite populations in those hives exhibiting allogrooming? Thanks, db


Hello DB,

These colonies that exhibit the behavior have very low mite levels. But I have not prooved just yet if this grooming type behavior is responsible for the low mite levels. I will be moving a few of these colonies to to my place so I can observe the behavior more closley.

Best Wishes,
Joe


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