# Over wintering nucs?



## dnichols (May 28, 2012)

Don't wait too much longer to start.
Might be a good idea to have mated queens for nucs
FEED, FEED, FEED.

Here is an old but awesome thread on the subject from Mike Palmer.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?189642-Wintering-Nucs


Good Luck,

D-


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Best advice always comes from the expert........

Michael Palmer's videos on wintering nuc's

part 1
http://vimeo.com/23135184

Part 2
https://vimeo.com/23234196


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Here is another resource. Mike refers to Kirk in his vimeos.
http://www.kirkwebster.com/index.php/contact-information


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Made mine (10) in mid-June with queen cells that I grafted. 9 out of 10 mated successfully, gave a Strachan NWC to the one that missed. All are doing great with beautiful brood patterns and filling the super with nectar on the fall flow. A couple are so strong that I may take a frame of brood and bees from them and put them in Frankenhive.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Has anyone had success wintering nucs in a shed? How long can bees be kept in a cold dark place before they need a bathroom break? I am thinking they could go about three months, or can they go longer? I am currently building a new larger shed and was thinking about trying overwintering some nucs in there, as my last try at wintering nucs outside was a disaster. I think stand alone nucs outside in Michigan is not going to work most winters. A regular 10 frame box split in half with two nucs in it might have a slightly better chance, but probably not much more. The extreme cold spells will do them in. I know M. Palmer has success with wintering nucs the way he does it on top of full size hives, I just don't see the lower hive producing that much warmth to help the nucs above it, but obviously it is working for him to a large degree. Maybe his winters average warmer than mine here in Michigan, I know he gets more snow than me, but that's not a factor in my opinion. John


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Mike Palmer has changed how he does his overwintered nucs from the popular Vimeo video you see. He used to put five frame doubles on top of production hives to keep them from getting buried in snow but now does four frame doubles with four frame supers on their own stands. With a top vented inner cover he doesn't worry about the snow. I was in his yard this spring and his survival rate was exceptional. I would guess around 7% loss. 

They look like this nowadays . . . .


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Here's another way that worked for me last winter here in the Mid-west.
http://s1110.photobucket.com/albums/h456/AdrianQuineyWI/?action=view&current=2011-11-23104616.jpg
Underneath the pondliner is a FBIC and then a 2 inch piece of foam insulation over each nuc. The end nucs are also capped with 2 inch foam. All 9 nucs survived, a group of 4 and a group of 5. Last winter was mild, and all my hives survived. This winter may be a harsher test.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Back to the original question. I have seen something about bees being kept in sheds, but it had it's own set of problems. If there is any kind of light and warmth they try and fly, ventilation had to be consistent. If my memory serves me right some of it occurs in Idaho where they use potato sheds.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Adrian, I used a very similar setup the winter that I lost all 20 nucs, I wintered them in double high 5 frame mediums in two groups of 10 with 1 1/2" foam on three sides with 2" foam tops and 2" foam underneath the nucs. It wasn't enough though, every nuc froze to death with capped honey everywhere, it was an extremely cold winter with below zero temps at night for many, many nights. John


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

John, that would be depressing. Perhaps my confidence is misplaced, I cover my bets a bit by having hives in a few other configurations just in case. I figure a single year is not enough to draw any real conclusions. If I get 5 years of acceptable results (acceptable results for me being more than 50% survival) I will think I'm on to something.


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## Nichols747 (May 21, 2010)

I've had success with double deep nucs (five deep frames on top of five deep frames), kept in an abandoned house, on stands with the bottom entrance level, sitting at a window sill. Window looks out under a covered porch, so they get no rain or snowfall. Here in the Pacific NW, our enemy, even more than the cold, is the constant moisture. Reading about the insulation, I wonder if they are too well insulated and sealed? I wonder if the hive isn't able to abate the metabolic moisture the bees produce? Ive read that styrofoam insulation under the cover is good, because then condensation accumulates on the sidewalls rather than above the bees and then dripping down on them? 

That said, beekeeping is a local sport, and we rarely get sustained temps below the thirties, and freeze/thaw changes sometimes daily.

I do love reading overwinter nuc discussions though - almost every one of my producing hives was started from an overwinter nuc!

Andrew


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jmgi said:


> Adrian, I used a very similar setup the winter that I lost all 20 nucs, I wintered them in double high 5 frame mediums......every nuc froze to death with capped honey everywhere, it was an extremely cold winter with below zero temps at night for many, many nights. John


We get similar weather here in Vermont. I've yet to see a colony "freeze." What did they perish from? 

If a nucleus colony swarms or absconds in August, they will never rebuild their population to form a suitable cluster to winter. When beekeepers tell me their bees starved with honey inches away, I have to believe the cluster was undersize.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Michael, I did state it inaccurately, they died of starvation with honey only inches away, so you may well be right that they had too small of clusters. They were not stuffed full of bees or boiling over, but I thought that the hives were populous enought, maybe not. I started the 20 nucs out in mid July with mated queens and a couple frames of brood and bees. I did have to feed them alot in late fall because our fall flow is not that great. I won't try wintering nucs again unless they are way more populous than what they were that year. John


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

? First year trying to over winter Nucs. So if I am hearing Michael right. Even though I right now have them in 5 fram Nuc boxes with some working for a second high med. I sould reduce it to four frame per box instead of the five frame that I currently have. For more bee room. 
Thanks
David


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

I've overwintered one double stacked 5 frame deep nuc in the shed. The cluster was maybe 3 frames (carniolan) and they had one 5/4 inch diameter hole in the bottom nuc. Throughout the winter (Puget sound) I had the south wind blowing into the nuc and hardly saw any activity except for the sunny days, but come spring, the nuc exploded. One nuc is no statistic, but I noticed that another 5 frame nuc triple stacked outside, did almost as well, but got off to a slower start because of temperature/weather swings.

The shed nuc was off the ground about 2 feet on grated floors, but the nuc itslelf had a solid floor and solid roof. The only opening was the entrance hole. Not winterized in any way.

I plan to overwinter all of my 4 colonies in 5-6 frame configuration, stacked vertically in the shed. I do not want my clusters to go right or left, I want them to go up. So all of my 10 frame equipment will be equiped with follower boards, or split down the middle like Mike Palmer's setup to ensure that each cluster is 5 frames wide. Bees do not fly in the dark, so if your shed does not allow the light, they won't fly out for however long they are there. If your honey is clean and does not produce a lot of waste in the bee's guts, I think you can get away with 4 months w/o cleansing flights. My colonies will be fairly liftable, so I will carry them out on nice sunny days, but otherwise, they'll be sitting in a dark, cold, dry, draft free shed. 5 degres celcius is the optimum temperature for overwintering in case you want to know and according to canadian studies you want one small hole on the bottom, and one small hole on the top for best overwintering.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I know the subject of wintering nucs has been discussed at length here on the forum before and there is also plenty of info if you search the internet, but it doesn't hurt to bring it up again because I think as Michael Palmer stated in his video, that the nucleus colony is fundamental to beekeeping, there are so many uses for them in your bee yards. I am looking for any and all advice or ideas on wintering nucs also along with the original poster because as I said earlier, my first attempt at wintering failed miserably a couple years ago, and I thought I had done everything right to give them a good chance at making it.

I use all medium 10 frame boxes on my bees for consistency, so I want to use 4 or 5 frame medium nucs double high. I will make two nucs in a standard 10 frame medium box using a divider and super them with another divided box. That's the easy part. I am wanting to try shed wintering this time around, keeping them out of the wind in the winter when its real cold should help alot. Now, the question for me is, should I provide a hole in the shed for each nuc for them to fly out on nice days, or keep them in the dark with the entrances screened for 4 months? Can they go that long without flying assuming their food is good quality? Is sugar syrup inferior causing them the need to fly sooner? Does anyone still insulate their nucs in a shed or is it unnecessary? These are some of the more important questions I have right now. John


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

JMGI,
I will leave others to answer your question regarding shed wintering as I have no experience with it. 

As for the nucs I suggest using individual supers above the double box. Think of this scenario. It is four weeks since you built your nucs and you want to inspect the queen and her brood pattern to determine if it is queen worth keeping and a nuc worth using resources on. To get into that bottom box in your setup you have to pull that whole top super off exposing each side of the colony. Bees will boil over the walls and that super sitting on the ground becomes a mess with bees crawling all over it. With single supers above (see photo above) It is quite easy to inspect one side without disturbing the other side. I just put a block of wood over the hole in the inner cover for the side I am not inspecting. Something to consider.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks for the advice, I honestly didn't consider that, and will adjust my plan accordingly. John


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I am going after it a second year. First year I put my overwinter nucs with purchased queen in a 10 frame box in March and we had a freak snow storm late and they starved. This year I have a queen castle I am going to pull the two outside dividers and stack a second on top. My concern is the entrance hole sizes is tiny. Maybe ½” I think I got the plans from here. Yesterday it was 90 (hot for here) and they were bearded all the way up the side. Also solid bottom board, I build some queen castles without bottoms to follower board them up, should I screen them and put them on another hive? Weather here is generally 40 and rain all winter.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Not sure what you're saying. I wouldn't reduce the size of a nuc, but explain better what you thought I said. 




My-smokepole said:


> ? First year trying to over winter Nucs. So if I am hearing Michael right. Even though I right now have them in 5 fram Nuc boxes with some working for a second high med. I sould reduce it to four frame per box instead of the five frame that I currently have. For more bee room.
> Thanks
> David


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

How do we define "nuc" for wintering? I'm using single deeps 8's. What you guys are talking about is a vertical 8 with 4 over 4 frames, or a vertical 10 with 5 over 5. How big does a nuc get before it's not a nuc?

Adam


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

Right now they are set up in a five frame, with five frames. In some of my reading having lots of bee space. And I keep seeing refences to four frame nuc. And that is why I am confused 
David


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

If five frames fit then use five. At some point the frames and box will get enough propolis and other buildup to the point where pulling that first frame out of the five is quite tough and rolls a lot of bees. That to me is a good time to switch it to four. First year nucs from new equipment should be fine with five but expect to have a tough time getting that first frame out in spring.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I am using 5 frames in a 9 inch (outside dimension) width box, then raising them to two boxes in strength for a total of 10 frames. They do get a bit tight, but I tend to pull the second frame up slowly, and am happy enough with that process.
It is interesting to deliberate what we call nucs, or when does a nuc stop being a nuc? Langstroth coined the term, and in as far as I can understand the context in his writing, used it to describe a system of propogating stocks of bees.
In my mind my nucs are bees in reserve in small colonies - bees I have not put into production with supers but instead are building reserves for next year.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Adrian, I use the same as you although I wish I would have made the outside dimension 1/4" wider. John


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## TIMER (Apr 17, 2011)

Why do you need a five frame super on top?
I'm using a five frame nuc with a shim on top with sugar bricks to feed.
Screened bottom boards to keep the moisture down.
I think if you go crazy with insulation the condensation will likely kill them.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Timer, I only use medium nucs, so I use the second one on top for additional storage. John


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I use two levels of 5 deep frames for several reasons. First, it gives me more confidence that they will have more room for stores; Second because MP says that they don't abscond from that configuration like they do in a single level 5 frame nuc; Lastly, because given a choice of cavity bees prefer that volume over all others - I figure they must know something.


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

Adrian,

Rather than 2 5 frame nucs why not just overwinter the nuc in a single deep? Less gear involved and then you would not need to transfer the bees in the spring.


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

Personally, I use 9 5/8" bodies with 5 deep frames and dbl stack throughout the year. That way, if I need to, I can add a frame of brood to a weak colony and not worry about mixing frames. For Winter, I triple stack for numbers and food supply. 

As far as the tight frames, I use all plastic frames. They are a little smaller than wooden frames. I do have to watch them a little closer than the full 10 frame colonies because of food reserves. 

Again, I keep nucs throughout the year to replace frames of brood, honey, and even queens if one dies. The nucs are really not for honey production, however, sometimes I still have to pull and extract honey from them too.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Xcugat, last year I had bees overwinter in single deeps, double deeps, triples, and nucs. I followed a method Roland advocated for the singles, and was pleased with it. This winter I again expect to have my bees in a variety of configurations. Only time will tell which method will work best for me and the way I keep bees. I'm a relatively new beekeeper. 
I really like the brood break method of mite control, and making splits. What I have seen so far is that starting with splits in 5 frame boxes seems easy on the bees - when they are building up a second storey is added. MP was not exaggerating in the vimeo when he describes how fast they draw comb.


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

Most of you bkeeps on this forum are in the northern part of the U.S. I am down here in the northern part of Florida. We really don't need more than a deep brood box throughout the year. So a two or three deep nuc is not unusual. However, I need to explain why I overwinter with 3 nucs. If at the end of the winter, there is brood in all three nucs, I will take two and make a new full colony with a starter nuc for later. That way I do not have to make a split to start another nuc. 

Because of personal health problems with both my wife and me, my bee colony count diminished drastically. I am now starting over with two full colonies and three nucs. But I have had bees for over 15 consecutive years. The bees I have now are survivors and the base for my new growth.

As for as the overwintering in buildings, the Europeans have been doing that for decades. It should be feasible here in the Upper U. S.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Xcugat asked:

Rather than 2 5 frame nucs why not just overwinter the nuc in a single deep? 

I believe that is easier for the bees to move up than sideways when they are hungry. It also seems to be their preference, to have a tall narrow area, rather than a short wide one. Start a small hive in a stack of 5 deeps, and see what they do.

Crazy Roland


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## Nantom670 (Jul 29, 2011)

You may want to look at this utube video, he has 6 nuc's in his basement with tubes fixed so that they can come and go outside when they want to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wrqG4DHPKE


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Roland said:


> ..It also seems to be their preference, to have a tall narrow area, rather than a short wide one. ..


Sounds like a good reason to use 8 frame boxes instead of 10's.

Adam


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Nantom670, 

I've seen that video before, I don't think that would be good on the bees to have them in the basement where the temperature is that high all winter, the bees would be too active all winter, raising brood, eating a ton, and not being able to fly when it gets cold outside, maybe I'm wrong, someone let me know if I am. John


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## Nantom670 (Jul 29, 2011)

Did you read the comments on down in the page, his basement is 72 degrees but with the tube running out and he also adjust the air flow coming in and he keeps it at 45-49 degrees and he says in 5 years he has not lost any over winter and he gets by on 5-6 lbs per Nuc. You can read his comments below the video because what he did was split one hive in 6 I believe. I did not really pay that much attention so one would have to read it for themselves.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Nantom670, sorry didn't read the details just looked at the pictures. John


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Just wondering if anyone uses heat tape on their nucs in the winter, and whether it helps or not in your opinion. If you use heat tape, how do you go about wrapping your nucs with it? Do you use it in addition to insulation, etc.? John


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

John, someone in Manitoba wintered bees this way with heating underneath. I thought it was interesting, and if I was retired and had more time I would be inclined to try it at least once to see what it looked like down here. However, I really don't like working bees in 2 framed mating nucs, and think working bees in 2 framed wintering nucs would be at least as annoying to me.
http://www.mbbeekeeping.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=59


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## Yellow Bee (Jul 15, 2011)

Thanks for all the info!


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## stoweski (Apr 1, 2008)

My-smokepole said:


> Right now they are set up in a five frame, with five frames. In some of my reading having lots of bee space. And I keep seeing refences to four frame nuc. And that is why I am confused
> David


Just went to EAS and sat in on Mike Palmer's presentation on overwintering nucs. I believe the reason your confused about the 4 frame reference is because you are using a typical nuc box. As Keth shows in post #7's picture, Mike's nucs are actually made out of a deep hive body. The bottom board has an opening on the front right (in the picture) and back left. Inside there is a board that splits the hive body into two. Mike can make two 'nucs' in one hive body and keep them separated... but can only fit four frames because of the space the board takes up. He also explained that bees have a tendency to move up in a hive instead of sideways just as Crazy Roland states in post #34. Because of the need for larger honey stores he has two "1/2 hive bodies" (Mike may call them something different) that go on top of the hive body (again, see pict in post #7) and also has four frames in each. Two inner covers (again, 1/2 size) and an outer cover.

I'm pretty sure this explains what Mike does. I tried to absorb all that he talked about last Monday at the conference. My nuc building starts next summer as it's too late to be making nucs at this point in the season.

By the way, thank you Mike for a great presentation! Wish I was a member of VBA and lived closer to you!

Keith


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Just to clarify my name is Keth not Keith. 

You are correct. Here is a pic of some of Mike's inner covers. . . .










And here is a pic of one of his double nucs ready for winter. He prefers now, I believe, to put a notch in the inner cover for an upper entrance/ventilation rather than drill holes in his box like this one is but when you have thousands you don't change them all overnight . . . .


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## dnichols (May 28, 2012)

Hey Keth can you explain the duct tape? Is that to reduce any boil over when the top cover is taken off?


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Sto, if you have reliable source of queens, why can't you split all of your 10 frame hives into who 5 framers. I assume if you have enough stores for one colony, you probably have enought stores for two half-colonies. All you really need is a few extra queens and some woodworking time.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Ahh the duct tape question. I knew it was coming. For winter prep the inner cover is turned over and the large lip provides a space for a fondant or protein patty in late winter. A two inch piece of foam is put on the inner cover. 

The duct tape keeps the bees from eating the foam.


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## stoweski (Apr 1, 2008)

Keth Comollo said:


> Just to clarify my name is Keth not Keith.


Ahh yes, sorry. Should have looked more closely. 

I thought the duct tape over the hole in the inner cover was there so the bees could 'hang out'.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Mike Palmer also talks about making sure there's enough cluster space for the bees in the nucs before winter. I'm wondering how people monitor this, and how they make sure there is enough cluster space. How do you keep the bees from over-filling available comb?

Adam


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I think the bees will pretty much take care of it themselves, in my area they raise brood until early November if the weather is not unseasonably cold, so they will always have some empty patches of cells where brood has hatched out. Another concern of mine is cluster size. I need to make sure I don't try wintering any nucs that are low on bees like I did a couple winters ago, that was a disaster. John


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

MP says to shoot for about 4.5-5 frames of honey in the double nucs. The remaining three frames are your cluster space with some of it being pollen. Typically this will form in the bottom box close to the center wall.

I have a few that are booming and a few that are lagging. I pulled a frame from the super and put a frame feeder in the laggards with a gallon of syrup to give them a kick in the pants. Like this . . .


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## dnichols (May 28, 2012)

Keth Comollo said:


> MP says to shoot for about 4.5-5 frames of honey in the double nucs. The remaining three frames are your cluster space with some of it being pollen. Typically this will form in the bottom box close to the center wall.
> 
> I have a few that are booming and a few that are lagging. I pulled a frame from the super and put a frame feeder in the laggards with a gallon of syrup to give them a kick in the pants. Like this . . .
> 
> View attachment 2983


Hey Keth what brand feeder that?


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

dnichols said:


> Hey Keth what brand feeder that?


Mann Lake Pro 1 gallon


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## oblib (Oct 28, 2011)

Ok first year beek got to ask, whats the difference between a weak hive ( won't survive the winter) and a nuc that will?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Healthy, young bees.


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## Allen (Oct 5, 2011)

Hi Keth, is that inner cover inverted during the summer months?
The rim looks sort of tall and was wondering if they build comb in that space.


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## oblib (Oct 28, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Healthy, young bees.


So really its not a question of how many bees you have in a hive, its just that the queen was able to lay the winter bees and they have enough food for the size of the cluster?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

And the cluster fits the cavity size.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Allen said:


> Hi Keth, is that inner cover inverted during the summer months?
> The rim looks sort of tall and was wondering if they build comb in that space.


The way you see it in the pic is how it spends warmer months. I will flip it for winter and the notch becomes the upper entrance and ventilation for deep snow days. This will be my first season trying it like this with the deep rim and think it will be great to be able to throw fondant or pollen patties on there without extra equipment. I don't think bees make a lot of wax in winter so burr comb shouldn't be an issue. I don't recall seeing much on Mikes inner covers.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Keth Comollo said:


> Mike Palmer has changed how he does his overwintered nucs from the popular Vimeo video you see.


Watch Part 2 and you will see these too. From the hit statistcis, I can see that most fokls don't watch the entire presentation Part 1 and 2.


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## Allen (Oct 5, 2011)

Keth, I'd a thought the inner cover would stay just like in the photo for the winter. To provide a place for sugar, pollen patties, etc.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Keth Comollo said:


> First year nucs from new equipment should be fine with five but expect to have a tough time getting that first frame out in spring.


Ohhhhhhh! I always wondered why folks were using 4 frames. I assumed somehow a smaller box. Duh. NOW it makes sense!


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

TIMER said:


> Screened bottom boards to keep the moisture down.


Timer, is this the first year you have tried this? I am in Z7b and I was planning on switching out the SBB on my 2-high 5f medium nucs and putting back the solid. I am worried about the cold and wind, etc. But if you successfully ow nucs in MI, I should have no problems down here in AR, I'm thinking.


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