# What is the problem? AFB?



## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

I got two hives from a guy who was leaving the area. He had not been into them all summer. Both had 2 deeps and 2 mediums and were full of bees and honey.
I moved them and cleaned the wax between the boxes and things looked good. I just glanced at the brood chamber (I'd had them apart for a while at this point) but things looked good.
I prepped them for the winter the other day and was shocked to find no bees in the upper super. The next super had a few. Some bees in the brood boxes, but 1/4 of what was there before.
One frame had a large diameter ring of capped brood, but emerging bees couldn't make it out of the cells. Another frame had larvae and capped brood - brood wasn't being attended to (late to have open brood here). I pulled a few emerging bees out cells and some were still alive but had deformed wings and low vitality (who knows how long they were trying to get out). The hive didn't smell bad, no sunken covers over cells, and the larvae that I checked were not 'gooey' and stretchy.
Is this early AFB or something else?














Thanks!
Kurt


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Something else. PMS?


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## buzzleblast (Jan 16, 2014)

Interested in the discussion. I have the same thing going on in one of my hives. 
Hopefully suspecting PMS, even though mite drop was low, I treated with OAV, which yielded less dead mites than another co-located hive. I am now less hopeful for an easy fix, and am afraid it is EFB.


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## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

I should add the other hive is fine.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

Take a sample of 300 bees from the centre of the brood nest and do a sugar shake or an alcohol wash. My guess is you have a very heavy mite load in that colony.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Looks like PMS with EFB breaking out.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

If there was not enough adult bees left in the hive to cover and warm the brood, it could be the brood chilled and died.


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## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

AR Beekeeper said:


> If there was not enough adult bees left in the hive to cover and warm the brood, it could be the brood chilled and died.


I was thinking that was a possibility, since we have had some frosts and there aren't many bees. 
But the deformed wings and non-emerging bees (not to mention all the missing bees) are something else.
This was a new hive this year and I recall that the drone cells in the burr comb had few mites in them. Kinda what would be expected for a first-year colony. 
I'll see if I can do a mite count.
Likely to be an autopsy in the spring.


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## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

That was fast. I took those pics on 10/27. Today, I found about 10 workers and one queen on the top of the brood chamber - that's it.
Guess I'd call that CCD. 

Not sure what to do with the queen. I needed one badly a few months ago and now I have an extra one....


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

It's not CCD, it was mites.


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

Can you take some frames from the other hive and give her something to work with and maybe save it? Maybe move them into a 5frme nuc to over winter. 
Not too mention treat them for mites. Both hives, or you may find the other one as a deadout too come spring.


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## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

JRG13 said:


> It's not CCD, it was mites.


With PMS, all the bees leave the hive?

And wouldn't have I seen some mites in the drone cells earlier in the summer? I haven't seen a first year colony with mite problems, but others would know better.

Santa Caras,
I thought of that later, but was too late. Too cold here - she's gone.


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

According to the image, it is not AFB.


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## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

My first thought was EFB.


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## Matt F (Oct 7, 2014)

first year beek here, with a significant infestation in the first year. hive collapse quickly, over about 2 weeks went from thriving to about 1/2 of the original package. I got the mite strips in and the hive started growing but still probably won't make it through the winter.

Anyway, I suspect you had substantial mites killing nearly all the brood -- that was my problem too. Deformed wings and brood failing to emerge are telltale signs as I understand it. With no smell and the brood caps aren't sinking in, sounds like mites.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

JRG13 said:


> It's not CCD, it was mites.


Certainly looks that way to me. From the pictures on 10/27, this colony was in major distress from varroa, with what typically presents as PMS and perhaps EFB (most likely a huge stress from varroa and reduced populations coupled with dramatically changing weather conditions). Since 10/27 you've had several hard frosts and sustained cold. These are the ingredients for a massive and rapid population decline - just as you witnessed. Really nothing mysterious here. 

Lessons learned: 

1) Get your mite populations under control in mid-summer (probably July for your area). 
2) Saving a highly distressed colony at the end of October in Michigan - impossible. 
3) Presence of deformed wings is a major red flag for your area.
4) With varroa in check, EFB needs to be on your radar during routine inspections
5) When one colony succumbs to varroa other nearby colonies are at high risk. There's really nothing that can be done now, but keep an eye out for signs of varroa in your other colonies early next season.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

JRG13 said:


> It's not CCD, it was mites.


Like JRG to me also seems to me that the hive has or had a high mite infestation .
The following may come other diseases due to the high viral load in the hive , making diagnosis more difficult.
But I also agree that the original problem was the varroa, for what you describe.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

The picture above and the description of vanishing hive come the first few frosts etc... is textbook on how hives with PMS collapse here. EFB is commonly associated with PMS due to the stressors involved. Even if you treat, it'll take 2-3 rounds of brooding to clean up the mess but in mild climates you can save them, but they'll be doing nothing but building up the next year.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

CCD "IS" the mites.


JRG13 said:


> It's not CCD, it was mites.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

There is no AFB visible in those pics.

The chewed up exposed larvae are mostly post pupal, if it was EFB you would expect a lot of pre pupal.

AFB no evidence at all, EFB could be present, maybe, but to me, not the main cause. Pic one in particular shows classic PMS and it's severe, and your description is of classic PMS. When the brood is that bad the hive has little chance at recovery and the adult bees mostly look normal but are sick. They are being parasitized by increasing numbers of mites and at the end the hive can go down real quick. Most of the sick bees desert the hive, that's the sacrificial way bees try to save their hive.

If your other hive is anything like that it is too late to be saved by oxalic acid, your best shot is Apivar, but likely it's too late for any treatment to work anyway.


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