# Mann Lake 18/9 extractor breaking deep frames



## Daniel Wasson (Jun 2, 2010)

I have not witnessed this, but a friend has the extractor and says that it breaks up deep frames every time they are put in the device. Even on the slowest speed setting. Mediums and shallows extract fine.

Has anyone else had this issue? If so, what did you need to do to correct the problem?


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

What kind of frames? Wood or plastic?? I've found that the plastic are somewhat fragile and extra care is needed in the extractor.


----------



## bermybee (Nov 2, 2008)

Rubber-bans should work. Never had that problem with my Dadants would run too slow to extract before they busted frames on the lowest speed, but that would be my guess. Does he use crimp wired foundation?


----------



## Daniel Wasson (Jun 2, 2010)

AstroBee,

This question was presented to me to find out if I had ever run across anyone else reporting the problem. In the course of researching I have not found anyone else talking about the issue across several forums, and so thought I would throw it out there and see what came back

Not sure about the frame types, probably both. I was not given that information. He lives about 45 miles away and so quick trips are not usually optional, and he has not responded to my email about your question yet. 

He does extractions for others and has two of the Mann Lake 18/9 extractors sitting side by side. Both have the problem of breaking up the deep frames I am told. He tries to discourage extracting deeps for this reason.

bermybee,
Are you suggesting wrapping the frames with rubberbands, or securing them into the extractor with rubberbands? I am not sure if the frames are coming apart due to torque like as if the upper and lower portions of the cage are starting at different speed, or if they are coming apart in some other way. Wish that I had seen it first hand to ask the forum a more detailed question.


----------



## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Deeps extract just fine if you start them slow until most of the honey is out. How else would a person get drawn deep frames for next years splits and nucs? If he's using the slowest speed and still slinging combs then have him try to load the extractor with 9 deeps and all the mediums he can get in to put more load on the motor. If that fails then have him call Mann Lake for a "technical discussion." Sometimes the electronics in the motor speed controller don't work as advertised.


----------



## Daniel Wasson (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks Fish Stix,

Just got his reply to where the frames, and how they are breaking.

His response; "It is always the top bar that breaks on both wood and plastic. 

The frame is on its side in the extractor. The top bar is facing to the outside. The break is several inches from the upper most corner on the top bar."

He did call Mann Lake and was told that the problem he is having has never been reported before. Sometimes the support departments are not as forthcoming about things as they should be so I thought I would run it by the biggest bunch of folks that use extractors and see what they might have experienced. Odd that it is both extractors doing the same thing.

Thanks for all the thoughts so far.


----------



## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

I am not saying that this is what happened to your friend. However, I have seen such a break 2 times. My break occured because I dropped a deep full of honey about 2 feet. The break was about 2 inches inside the end bar and I figure that the weight of the frame and gravity caused the fracture. I found it as I pried it out of the box but if the fracture was not noticed and then put into the extractor one would think that it occured while extracting. The centrifugal force will certainly complete the job if the wood is already fractured. You can get upwards of 50 G's at full speed. 

So throw away any frames with structural fractures.

Fuzzy


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Maybe I missed it, but in what way are they breaking? Are the frames breaking or is the comb being flung out of the frames?

How is your friend loading the frames? All deep frames? Mixture of deep frames and other sizes? I don't understand how an extractor full of frames could break the frames. Where is the room for them to bend far enuf to break?

Very curious to me. I wish your friend were here to answer these questions.


----------



## MAXANT (Sep 13, 2008)

We need more details! Something doesnt sound right. opcorn:


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I recalled a thread that talked about frames breaking with the ML Extractor - a quick search and I found it. Now if only I had the skill to make it into a link. :s
"Pierco medium frames don't fit in my extractor".
Towards the end of this discussion it talk about someone having trouble with both wood and plastic frames. It would be interesting to know if there was a satisfactory solution.
On a separate note, is it common to rubber band frames together when extracting? On my trial run last week I noticed one frame wouldn't stand up as well.
Adrian.


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222126


???


----------



## bermybee (Nov 2, 2008)

Daniel Wasson said:


> bermybee,
> Are you suggesting wrapping the frames with rubberbands, or securing them into the extractor with rubberbands?


I was suggesting to wrap the frames like if you was doing a cut out job to stop comb blow out due to off center forces in the regular radial extractor extractor.

I have never had a frame break even at top speed. Mind you all larger Dadant's have three rings on there reel to support the top bar of frames.

Sounds like he might need to read my quote a couple times.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I have never heard of putting rubber band s around frames to hold the comb in, but it would probably help. 

Usually the only time I have had trouble w/ keeping combs in frames during extraction was when I used plastic foundation or duragilt foundation and tried to extract new combs. The combs would sometimes come out of the frames, away from the bottom bar. But, if I were paying attention and placed the new combs in between two old combs the problem wasn't as bad. Especially if I ran the extractor slow for a while and then slowly raised the speed.


----------



## Daniel Wasson (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks to everyone who posted a thought on this.

Turned out that it was a combination problem. On each unit there was a vertical support rod that was shorter than the others by a slight amount. As well, the threads for the nut that secured the the rod to the spools was not threaded correctly allowing the whole unit to flex. The problem was only seen under load.

The movement created was enough to snap the top bar of the frame about 4 inches from the top, even at the lowest speeds. The problem was not found until the units were completely disassembled.


----------



## bermybee (Nov 2, 2008)

Well isn't that a testament to quality construction. The things Maxant & Dadant owners take for granted opcorn: 
Who's paying for the repairs, does the warranty cover it?


----------



## Daniel Wasson (Jun 2, 2010)

No repairs, and out of warrantee I believe. The mfg has a new stainless cage for the units. He purchased the new cages rather than try to correct the problem with new parts.


----------



## bigmitch (May 1, 2010)

ask him to send his extractor to me ,and purchase a new one,,,when i figure it out i will let him know what was wrong,,,,ha ha let me know if you need my address


----------



## Daniel Wasson (Jun 2, 2010)

Nice try bigmitch  Pretty sure the problem is solved now though and the extractors are home to stay.


----------



## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Not wanting to insult your friend, but it is likely the supers are dropped and weakened before uncapping. A deep is about 120 pounds wet. That will fracture even the best frames. More likely he is in a hurry and the high setting is faster than starting slow like they were his own frames. I know from my workshops you can hand crank any frame without snapping anything. Electric motors are just as happy starting on high as slow.


----------



## Daniel Wasson (Jun 2, 2010)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> Not wanting to insult your friend, but it is likely the supers are dropped and weakened before uncapping. A deep is about 120 pounds wet. That will fracture even the best frames. More likely he is in a hurry and the high setting is faster than starting slow like they were his own frames. I know from my workshops you can hand crank any frame without snapping anything. Electric motors are just as happy starting on high as slow.


No insult taken by me, and I am sure none would be taken by him either. He runs an extraction service for other people and I am sure he has seen his share of the type of damage you describe. 

However, as I mentioned earlier this was a problem with the extractor hardware. The breaks would always happen at the same slots on the spool. Not noticed until that spot was marked and the problem repeated in that same location. On disassembly it was noted that the nut was not seated the same way as the rest on the spool spacing rods, in the area where the breaks were happening. Further investigation found that a single rod on each of the units was shorter than the others. This was causing the spools to pinch together when under a load, putting a bend in the top bar of the frame, causing them to break. The frames would break at the lowest setting of the extractor.

Parts could have been confused between the two identical extractors at some point in a cleaning being performed. That is my best guess as to how the same problem started occuring with two identical machines at essentially the same time. It is the only possibility that makes much sense any way.

I have not heard that there is any more problems since putting in the new stainless hardware that was ordered.

Thanks for all the responses. Problem has been solved to the best of my knowledge. I reported back with what was found just in case anyone else found themself in the same situation.


----------

