# TF Queens



## Briancbirch (May 8, 2016)

First day beekeeper here---installed my first package this afternoon. I am looking at treatment free beekeeping with foundation less and regression to natural sized comb. Having purchased a package from a local beekeeper/distributed whom purchased a truckload from a treated supplier in California, I am now looking at requeening with a TF queen. Am I correct in needing to requeen? If so any recommended suppliers that would thrive in hot dry summers and cold windy winters? No one locally that I am aware of is treatment free.... Thanks to all in advance that have contributed their knowledge and experience on this forum. 

BB


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

"You must requeen with a TF queen" has become the latest piece of endlessly recycled advice. I can find no published evidence of a controlled study that indicates this nostrum has ever been tested. Like many internet fables, this advice takes on a life of its own.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

this is brian's first post on the forum jwc, couldn't you at least say 'welcome'?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

hi brian, and welcome to the forum!

i just scanned down the list of treatment free members in this thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?320882-treatment-free-member-listing

and i didn't see anyone from idaho.

treatment free suppliers are in the minority in most locations. have you found anyone keeping bees off treatments in your area?


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## MartinW (Feb 28, 2015)

Some beekeepers choose to start colonies earlier in their seasons with packaged bees and subsequently re-queen with purchased stock better adapted to their local climates, IPM strategies, and/or desires to keep bees treatment free. It's not a requirement, but a strategy. Ultimately, you will need to make this decision based on your objectives, resources and risk profile. Other things to consider...your local environment bio-diversity/monoculture, exposure to toxic substances, and access to local beekeepers with mite tolerant/resistant strains.

If it makes you happy, go for it. Good luck.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> I can find no published evidence of a controlled study that indicates this nostrum has ever been tested


JWC, I have 23 colonies, another beekeeper has 15, a second has 14, and a third has 11, and a fourth has 2 treatment free colonies. I plan to go into winter with 28 colonies from stock that has not been treated in 11 years. I am also doing all I can to get other beekeepers in this area to stop using treated genetics and I'm going to get a few queens into peoples hands in other parts of the U.S. Give it a few more years and you can start complaining about something other than treatment free because everyone will be treatment free.


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## Briancbirch (May 8, 2016)

Thanks squarepeg, I googled and searched the list as well, unfortunately there is no one that I know of using treatment free in this area. I did find some good information on some mutt-ferral stock on the Olympic peninsula in Washington (www.owa.cc) and tf queens in Texas (beeweaver.com), but nothing locally. Anyone have experience with these apiaries?


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Fusion_power said:


> JWC, I have 23 colonies, another beekeeper has 15, a second has 14, and a third has 11, and a fourth has 2 treatment free colonies. I plan to go into winter with 28 colonies from stock that has not been treated in 11 years. I am also doing all I can to get other beekeepers in this area to stop using treated genetics and I'm going to get a few queens into peoples hands in other parts of the U.S. Give it a few more years and you can start complaining about something other than treatment free because everyone will be treatment free.


Wow.


Briancburch : Kent Williams from Kentucky has treatment free queens and keeps many hundreds of hives for profit and is "known" He speaks all over the South east and is a great guy also. 

He also will tell you that it is not as simple as a treatment free queen and small cell. (270) 519-4772 is the number of the guy that sells his queens I think his name is Chuck.

(coming from a guy who use to keep bees treatment free). Make sure you know how to reproduce your own bees! If you don't, you will have to keep purchasing them. Perhaps the most important tool to treatment free beekeeping is splitting your hives so that when you lose one you have a back up.

Also MOST treatment free gurus that are online and youtube, make money from selling information NOT from their bees. Just take it all with a grain of salt. 

Welcome to beesource and the best of luck!


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Briancbirch said:


> Thanks squarepeg, I googled and searched the list as well, unfortunately there is no one that I know of using treatment free in this area. I did find some good information on some mutt-ferral stock on the Olympic peninsula in Washington (www.owa.cc) and tf queens in Texas (beeweaver.com), but nothing locally. Anyone have experience with these apiaries?


I have used several beeweaver queens. They produce good! However many of their bees are very aggressive in my experience. I was not able to keep them treatment free though.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Briancbirch said:


> Thanks squarepeg, I googled and searched the list as well, unfortunately there is no one that I know of using treatment free in this area. I did find some good information on some mutt-ferral stock on the Olympic peninsula in Washington (www.owa.cc) and tf queens in Texas (beeweaver.com), but nothing locally. Anyone have experience with these apiaries?


you are most welcome brian. the easiest way to keep bees off treatments is to find somebody within driving distance of your location already having success with it and obtain your bees and instruction from them, but that's not always possible.

in my opinion one of the most important things that makes it work here is the presence of a thriving feral bee population. it's pretty easy for bees here because our weather is moderate, there are large expanses of wooded lands for habitat, and we have exceptional floral diversity providing optimal nutrition.

if you can determine whether or not feral bees are present in your location, and if you can catch a swarm of them or perhaps trap out a colony from a tree, i would predict your chances would be better than with bees you might purchase from another part of the country.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> this is brian's first post on the forum jwc, couldn't you at least say 'welcome'?


Oh this is so funny. 
Welcome Brian- but just to say hi and toss in my two cents- there's a lot of Internet support for the treatment free thing (oh no, gonna make myself a target) but the success of the stock or whether the seller actually has a breeding program is ??? 
You probably have an awseome local breeder who may or may not be treatment free. I haven't bought packages in years, but the last ones I got were a waste. Horrible queens. Might be good just to see availability of queens before you even need one. Cheers


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Carpenter have tf queens. The vp site at
http://vpqueenbees.com/purchase/production-queens
has queens from his operation. You will have to email them
to see if they are tf or not. You have to do further searching for
the vsh queen and then open mate her daughters to your local
drones. Local that already adapt to your bee environment. 

And welcome to Bee Source!


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## Zombee (Mar 20, 2016)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> I have used several beeweaver queens. They produce good! However many of their bees are very aggressive in my experience. I was not able to keep them treatment free though.



Welcome Brian.

I used beeweaver queens and a few packages over a period of 3 years. Never lost one of those hives over the winter. But like Tennessee's Bees a few of my hives were aggressive. A couple very much so. Not AHB aggressive but I didn't walk very close to those hives unless suited up. I did however keep them treatment free for 3 years. To the best of my knowledge they are still going strong. I moved away and left them behind. They built population extremely fast. But they superceded quickly. And we're very swarmy. Hard to keep on top of. I doubt I had much of the beeweaver genetics into the second year on the original packages.

Good luck and best wishes going tf.

Rock


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

And even if you can't find TF in your area... I wasn't able to but I did get some queens from a decent program (Saskatraz queens) that all survived their first winter, and a couple that survived their second. I got a local mutt that also has survived 2 winters and am muddling along. So things don't absolutely need to be TF completely as a starting point. I am now working with about 18 colonies in my third year, have a bunch of queen cells in mating nucs, and have my first queen laying this year, this without a TF starting point and mentor.

I second the opinion to learn to make some splits to cover losses as a fundamental TF skill. If you don't need them after the winter, you can sell them.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

I tried beeweaver queens last year. They were good strong queens the bees can handle higher mite loads they live longer than the other bees in the winter untreated but the winter up here is to long. Had some live to spring and in the spring build up the bees were Hygenic and cleaned out the brood with mites, that made the hive weak and we had a cold spell and that killed them.


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## Briancbirch (May 8, 2016)

Thanks to all for your thoughts and insight. I think my approach this year will be keep the current queen and see how she fairs. In the meantime I'll be on the look out for swarms to add to another hive. If unsuccessful will look more into getting a TF queen for future years. I am interested in requeening my own hives as time goes on via splits. Also be useful to help with any losses. Thanks again!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I would not wait another year to find the tf queen for your local area.
You might have to ship the tf queens in for your hive expansion this year.
Learn some more on you tube on how to introduce a new queen and about
making splits. Having more than one hive will keep your moral up just in case
some did not make it over the winter. At least the chance of their survival will 
be increase. Expand slowly but surely as soon as you can. Don't wait another season
to pass you by.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Keeping bees with just one hive is kind of shooting yourself in the foot.
As soon as the hive has four frames of brood, steal at least one, & a frame of nectar/pollen to start a nuc. That spare queen might save your hive. Check out Solomon Parker's methods. Try everything at least once, but don't bet the whole farm on anything. Good Luck! CE


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>"You must requeen with a TF queen" has become the latest piece of endlessly recycled advice. I can find no published evidence of a controlled study that indicates this nostrum has ever been tested. Like many internet fables, this advice takes on a life of its own.

Your post is filled with the usual insults to treatment free beekeepers. Words like "nostrum" and "fables" and "endlessly recycled advice". 

Maybe you should tell that to Erickson: http://beesource.com/resources/usda...ney-bees-from-locally-adapted-stock-a-recipe/ or Harbo: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00218839.2005.11101141#.VzHXE4QrJhE who started with feral bees that were surviving without treatments as the basis of his SMR (later renamed VSH) bees. But then you'd really need to explain the concept to every breeder of every animal since the existence of humans. If you want to breed fast horses, you start with fast horses. If you want to breed cows that make a lot of milk you start with cows that make a lot of milk. I doesn't take a genius or a scientific study to show that.


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

These discussions always become great big arguments about the merits of treatment free versus treatment. It is the one thing that can be counted on in beekeeping.

The questions I have is, why is it such a bad idea to have "scientific" studies done on the successful treatment free non-feral colonies? Why so much resistance to that idea? I would think that some of the universities with "bee labs" would be chomping at the bit to set up research projects to find out why and how treatment free beekeepers are successful. Or are there ongoing research projects?


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I actually had a university research group go through my hives yesterday. They liked how my bees looked. Its strange that there isn't more attention paid to TF bees, because solutions would be more concentrated in those situations. In bees that are treated, the solutions are out there, but diffuse and more difficult to detect. The question becomes, is this really a solution? because information is lost with treatment. 

In my case, I expect that they won't find anything exceptional that will pop out at them due to study design, as I haven't been at it long enough as a large enough scale to make much difference.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

the usda/ars researchers in baton rouge have expressed interest in looking at the traits of my survivor stock. i am hoping that circumstances allow for me to get 2 or 3 queens down there this summer for them study.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Dan the bee guy said:


> I tried beeweaver queens last year. They were good strong queens the bees can handle higher mite loads they live longer than the other bees in the winter untreated but the winter up here is to long. Had some live to spring and in the spring build up the bees were Hygenic and cleaned out the brood with mites, that made the hive weak and we had a cold spell and that killed them.


Sorry to hear of your loss.

I think what you are saying makes sense. I, too have BeeWeaver bees. I would say down South they can also carry heavier mite loads, but with that, I have come to believe, comes an increase in swarming pressure. 
They built up very strong early and it has been a constant battle to "try" to stay ahead of swarm prep.

Good luck


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> the usda/ars researchers in baton rouge have expressed interest in looking at the traits of my survivor stock. i am hoping that circumstances allow for me to get 2 or 3 queens down there this summer for them study.


I asked Lenard if there was a similar program in the states. He said there were a few scaled down efforts. Now if the survey could be expanded to North America instead of just Canada...that would be very cool to characterize bees across the continent. Perhaps it is something to look for in the future. I just heard about what Lenard was doing and contacted him just as he was starting to get some study sites. With your systematic approach to things, I would say you would be a great collaborator with a researcher along with your interesting bees.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks lharder. i started the season with the goal of getting some queens down to the bee lab being a priority this year, but at this point i'm only giving it about a 50% chance of coming to fruition. on the other hand new queens are now in the hands of about a half dozen different beekeepers so that should give us an opportunity to see how they do outside of my operation. is lenard part of the university research group that visited your apiary?


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Briancbirch said:


> I am now looking at requeening with a TF queen. Am I correct in needing to requeen? If so any recommended suppliers that would thrive in hot dry summers and cold windy winters? No one locally that I am aware of is treatment free....


Look for someone who does swarm removals of feral swarms in your area. Check with Jim Engle in Shoshone for leads.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

By the way, welcome. Also, by the way, I've got forty hives at this time; I've never treated; I make money selling bees, not information. There's a real world out there.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

AHudd said:


> Sorry to hear of your loss.
> 
> I think what you are saying makes sense. I, too have BeeWeaver bees. I would say down South they can also carry heavier mite loads, but with that, I have come to believe, comes an increase in swarming pressure.
> They built up very strong early and it has been a constant battle to "try" to stay ahead of swarm prep.
> ...


Do not be sorry, all beekeeping is local , I don't know anyone up north that is treatment free maybe someone will speak up and let me know. I would like to be treatment free but trying to find the way is what I'm looking for. Maybe it will take someone to incorporate all the traits of VSH , feral , ankle biters into one and do it in multiple lines of bees.


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## Briancbirch (May 8, 2016)

Thank you Michael, tech and beepro. I have read Michael's book and appreciate your philosophy and beekeeping experience. Since I already committed the cardinal sin of hiving a package (hanging the queen cage---hey it was cold and I was a wimp in direct releasing the queen), I will adapt and take your advice(s). I intend to only take honey from the bees when there is more than what is needed and likely not this year. I will work on a split and try to find a local feral bee swarm (thanks to riverderwent for the local lead).


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

"These discussions always become great big arguments about the merits of treatment free versus treatment. It is the one thing that can be counted on in beekeeping....Or are there ongoing research projects?" 

"Maybe it will take someone to incorporate all the traits of VSH , feral , ankle biters into one and do it in multiple lines of bees."

Ever since the onset of the mites, the tf and treatment operation, especially the commercial, have been divided into 2 separate opinion groups. Yes, there is an ongoing research project to trade queens and maintain the vsh genetics to improve it. This project is still on going every year. The prized open mated tf breeder queen is highly guarded because it is a rare specie. 
The beekeeper who would like to be tf someday need to have the right contact for the resistant genetics. 
An example, there is a small bee yard 5 minutes driving time from my apiary. Every year I have never seen the beekeeper working on these hives on pallets in an open field. He would moved out some hives and keep some there. I have never seen him treat or feed them either. It is either survival or perished. And every early Spring to summer I grafted my Cordovan queens to be mated with these drones along with others. On my 2nd years of beekeeping I had some low mite hives. One hive in particular has no mites with a resistant queen open mated with these drones. Too bad I wasn't experienced enough to take some graft from this queen and lost its genetics. After reading much here I have found the vsh source with breeders coming from the vsh bee lab. Put in an order for the vsh daughter also. So yes, you have to put the resistant genetics in the area that is deficient of such a bee starting with your own local apiary one hive at a time. 
My next goal is to get the mite biting bees from Carpenter mated with the vsh daughter genetics from the beelab. My focus is on the Italians, especially the Cordovan. Because the selection and elimination process is a time consuming task not many have the patience and resources to do so. I look at it on a long term basis and not a one year honey harvest modeling Michael Palmer's sustainable apiary. At least my goal is clear on what I need to do to bring in the resistant genetics to my local area. How can you don't have the tf bees when your local DCAs is saturated with these good genetics? It is time to develop them one apiary at a time. If the goal is to keep the honey bees going I urge every beekeeper to take this route, slowly but gradually one small step at a time. Just 2 years ago in 2014, I lost my only 2 strong hives due to the mites on an early Spring day trying to go tf. This year I have more bees and growing my operation going tf. I thought it would take me another 3 years to reach this path. But as the summer progressed I start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. May the bees shine incorporating the tf genetics into my apiary every year until my goals have been reach.
A little bee experiment I would like to try after growing my out yard is to have some hives on a farm with 7 acres of open woodland. I've seen some Italians bees nearby so maybe I can put some vsh/mite biting swarms into this woodland. Maybe that will replenish the feral population if any in there already. A sign to tell is to get some virgins in this area.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> many thanks lharder. i started the season with the goal of getting some queens down to the bee lab being a priority this year, but at this point i'm only giving it about a 50% chance of coming to fruition. on the other hand new queens are now in the hands of about a half dozen different beekeepers so that should give us an opportunity to see how they do outside of my operation. is lenard part of the university research group that visited your apiary?


Yes, he is the leader of the group and is involved with the field work for the sampling in BC. I believe he is a driving force, not sure if he is THE driving force as its a huge study and some other research groups are involved. He is a very competent beekeeper himself, not sure his exact history but believe he was involved in Mark Winston's bee group in some capacity when he was younger.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood, and i saw the link you provided in the other thread, thanks again.


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## Briancbirch (May 8, 2016)

Alright, 

so with splits would someone suggest doing a split and adding a TF queen to the queenless split but then keep my current queen....or supersede the existing queen with a new queen, wait to ensure her genetics are in the current hive and then split from there and let the split raise a new queen? This will be my plan if I cannot procure a feral queen this year. Due to the weather in southern Idaho I worry about overwintering two weaker hives because of splits.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Briancbirch said:


> Alright,
> 
> so with splits would someone suggest doing a split and adding a TF queen to the queenless split but then keep my current queen....or supersede the existing queen with a new queen, wait to ensure her genetics are in the current hive and then split from there and let the split raise a new queen? This will be my plan if I cannot procure a feral queen this year. Due to the weather in southern Idaho I worry about overwintering two weaker hives because of splits.


I know this is the treatment free forum but depending on what your mite load is you might have to treat to knock down the mites before you put in the new queen. I think part of my problem was I got packages loaded with mites put in treatment free queen and they couldn't reverse the mite population befor winter


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It is always advisable to keep the mite load down in order
for the new queen to establish her hive first.
What you do is to take the current queen along with some
bees and a pollen/nectar frame to a new nuc. Then introduce
the new tf queen into your current hive. This will allow the tf
queen to establish herself faster. The old queen can continue to
grow her nuc hive. If you use a double screen and put one weak hive
on top of the stronger one then they should winter fine without the
mites to bother them. Of course, you have to establish the separate 
opposite entrance for the 2 hives. Doing so will allow them to share
the warm heat with the warmer air at the top hive. Now they don't have
to worry about the cold winter. This is how we solve the cold issue on
a small colony.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>so with splits would someone suggest doing a split and adding a TF queen to the queenless split but then keep my current queen....

Everything is a tradeoff. You could do that and then if they aren't strong enough come winter you could remove the current queen and recombine them. If you are doing to do that I'd do it in the fall before that last batch of winter bees is raised. Like August or September.


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## Charlestonbee (Mar 26, 2015)

Squarepeg, I've read a lot you've posted and would love to get a few of your queens. I would make the drive to come get them. I was treatment free until I lost everything now use oa and that's it. I haven't been able to keep mite loads down with the queens I make. Currently only have a dozen hives but will be expanding. We have 4000 acres in an area that is swamp/Tupelo. No farming operations nearby. I'll be putting bees down on this land next year. Let me know if you have a few queens to spare next year.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Charlestonbee said:


> Let me know if you have a few queens to spare next year.


many thanks charlestonbee. i'm trying my best to rear queens from this stock and get them into the hands of other beekeepers. i'm doing this part time and depend on my day job to pay the bills, and with the strict timing involved with queenrearing i've found that sometimes the weather and other commitments make it challenging. that said, i would love to see how they do up there in your neck of the woods. check back in with me next year and we'll see if we can make it happen.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

As I've mention this before partner up with a 
retired person beekeeper or someone who has the time
to do the grafting. There are many beekeepers who are interested
in your bees. I have the interest also. There are so many avenue to
get your bees to needy beekeepers. A simple website will do, for example.
Outsource the time consuming process while you still maintain the central operation
to handle what you can. So 2 source operation going on at once but fit harmoniously. 
There is a way to expedite the queen rearing process on a second level of deeper thinking.


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## Johnnycake (May 13, 2016)

Brian, Welcome. I am in the same position as you and have the same intentions, so will be following this thread and your progress in earnest. Also hoping to follow Solomon Parker's approach. I have a question about the requeening/split:

Michael, you wrote: "You could do that and then if they aren't strong enough come winter you could remove the current queen and recombine them. If you are doing to do that I'd do it in the fall before that last batch of winter bees is raised. Like August or September."

Does that target date of August/Sept depend on one's location or is it fixed?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It depends on the hive condition and not the weather or certain month
of the year. If you have a small nuc hives then it is better to combine them
before the winter begins. I once combined 3 dwindling hives into one to make
it stronger for the winter. It works when you can do it earlier on before the Autumn.


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## Bee Tamer (Jan 21, 2016)

Hi Brian, I also advocate splitting your hive and acquiring a mated TF queen. My only additional advice would be to plan to do it sooner rather thanwait until you see a decline or problem with mite related virus'. Hopefully so where around the summer solstice. If you split too late building enough comb to hold adequate winter stores will be impossible.


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## Johnnycake (May 13, 2016)

I have a question to the point of this discussion (hope I am not hijacking here, sorry - just also interested in this) - so you are all advocating splitting a new package of bees in the first season right? I thought I needed to first establish the colony, requeen with a TF Queen this year/season in time to have the colony ready for winter, and then the following year start the splits once the hive is strong. It's possible to do the spits this year you think?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

orthoman said:


> These discussions always become great big arguments about the merits of treatment free versus treatment. It is the one thing that can be counted on in beekeeping.
> 
> The questions I have is, why is it such a bad idea to have "scientific" studies done on the successful treatment free non-feral colonies? Why so much resistance to that idea? I would think that some of the universities with "bee labs" would be chomping at the bit to set up research projects to find out why and how treatment free beekeepers are successful. Or are there ongoing research projects?


if you want to study feral colonies, I will give you the GPS coordinates of a Bee tree that' ive been watch closely that is starting their 5th season.......then you can go there and climb up about 20 ft and look in the hole LOL


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Johnnycake said:


> I have a question to the point of this discussion (hope I am not hijacking here, sorry - just also interested in this) - so you are all advocating splitting a new package of bees in the first season right? I thought I needed to first establish the colony, requeen with a TF Queen this year/season in time to have the colony ready for winter, and then the following year start the splits once the hive is strong. It's possible to do the spits this year you think?



It's all location dependant and then seasonal. If you can get them built up to a double deep by the end of june you could split the colony in 2 and overwinter as singles, depending on how bad your winters are you might want to switch those singles to a 5 over 5 nuc which will winter better than a 10 frame single.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Dan the bee guy said:


> Do not be sorry, all beekeeping is local , I don't know anyone up north that is treatment free maybe someone will speak up and let me know. I would like to be treatment free but trying to find the way is what I'm looking for. Maybe it will take someone to incorporate all the traits of VSH , feral , ankle biters into one and do it in multiple lines of bees.


I am considered " northern" here in IL and I'm TF currently have 17 colonies. Several of the locals here are TF and feral colonies are on a huge upswing in the area. Tim Ives is TF and he is about 4 hrs NE of me up in IN dang near MI it can be done in the north.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Johnny, beekeeping is very flexible.
You do what is right according to the hive condition that match up with
the local environment. Beekeeping is all local.
If this is your first year and only hive I would not recommend doing a split. Because
new beekeeper need to learn the basics beekeeping first unless you have a local mentor
to help keep everything on track. Going by yourself is a steep learning curve like I did. Lost
2 strong hives on my first year. So this thread is about requeening with a tf queen and not about
making a package split we are advocating here. Perhaps you are thinking about splitting a first
year package with a tf queen. The OP asking about requeening with a tf queen. My only worry is
whether or not the bees can withstand the cold of winter with a small size colony???
Around here everything we do center around the local environment and the hive condition. I will
not do a split with only 5 frame of bees left. But splitting on a double deep full of bees with a newly
mated after the solstice queen is possible here. In the cold country you are pushing them to their 
limit based on the colony size and ability to overwinter. It is another ball game in the cold country.
The bottom line is to split or not depends on the hive condition. Are there enough winter bees to carry
the hive over until Spring time again? Tf queen is one issue but mite fighting ability is another issue.
Just because a hive is tf does not mean the mite load is normal that it will not crash the hive in the Spring
time. Some will treat even with a tf queen on oav to allow the hive to overwinter successfully on the first
year.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

beepro said:


> Some will treat even with a tf queen on oav to allow the hive to overwinter successfully on the first
> year.


Really? name 2. Why would someone go to the trouble of tracking down TF queens then treat them? That makes a much sense as wiping before you poop.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It is a precautionary measure to make sure the
hive actually has a chance to established itself before the
onset of winter. These are the newly split hive with a new mated tf
queens. So to get your answer you need to make a post for this question.
Last year I did it. Up until now I don't have to use my homemade oav gadget
anymore. It is your choice to oav or not. I just wanted my hives to go into the winter
as mite free as possible. Comes next Spring she has to prove herself to be worthy of a tf
queen or not.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

just what I thought by " some" you mean you LOL


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Harley Craig said:


> I am considered " northern" here in IL and I'm TF currently have 17 colonies. Several of the locals here are TF and feral colonies are on a huge upswing in the area. Tim Ives is TF and he is about 4 hrs NE of me up in IN dang near MI it can be done in the north.


Good one I would consider you a southerner.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Dan the bee guy said:


> Good one I would consider you a southerner.


So would everyone from Chicago but the fact of the matter is we can get lows all the way down to -17 try getting someone who has spent their entire life in Georga to wrap their brains around that lol


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Harley Craig said:


> So would everyone from Chicago but the fact of the matter is we can get lows all the way down to -17 try getting someone who has spent their entire life in Georga to wrap their brains around that lol


When the southern states get a inch of snow and the city's close down all I can do is 
Try 38 below for a week and two more months of winter. One good thing about our weather it keeps most of the rif raf away.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Dan the bee guy said:


> When the southern states get a inch of snow and the city's close down all I can do is
> Try 38 below for a week and two more months of winter. One good thing about our weather it keeps most of the rif raf away.


Wasn't Jefferey Dahmer from WI?


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Slow Drone said:


> Wasn't Jefferey Dahmer from WI?


Ouch


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> down to -17 try getting someone who has spent their entire life in Georga to wrap their brains around that


Try -30 in Alabama. Last time it happened was in the 1950's.

I was in Greenwood SC in 1981 when 6 inches of snow fell overnight. I never saw so many wrecks in my life. Fortunately, I had a recent model 4 wheel drive truck so was able to get around with no problems. I learned to drive on snow in Iowa.

I was in Alabama in 1993 when a blizzard hit on March 12th and shut down the north central part of the state. Snowdrifts were 9 feet deep at my house. Actual snowfall was closer to 12 inches but the wind stacked it up like chaff.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It wasn't only me.
Saw another post or 2 here claiming to clean
out the mites before overwintering them. Either way, I'm
going tf this year. The mites are finally under control thanks to
Pete's bees expressing the algogrooming behaviors.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Hmm, making some queens/splits is a basic beekeeping skill in my opinion. Backup will get you out of trouble. In the first year making some splits with imported queens is a good first step in this regard. I went totally against the advice of the person I bought bees from (following advice from m. palmer instead), and made 7 nucs out of the first nuc I got with 4 queens brought in. I overwintered 6 of them. The original queen didn't make it though I have a couple of her grand daughters floating around. Numbers are your friend.

The overwintered nuc has upset the whole traditional viewpoint of how to manage bees in time for winter.


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## Briancbirch (May 8, 2016)

I got a swarm!!! A huge (10lbs at least)---it's at least 3-4 times bigger than my package. Hived it and doing well so far. I have also bought a TF queen that I think will use to requeen by package hive in July. I don't know if I can support more than two hives currently. Since this swarm is so large should I add a second deep (10 frame deeps) now or wait.... They are bearding a bit but may be due to the high temps (lower 90's)?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Every time they are overcrowded do add more hive space for them.
This will minimize the swarming, even with a newly mated queen. So I say
go ahead to put another deep for them. High temp or not they will need more
room to expand later on. 
With the tf queen now, go ahead to graft some daughters from her. No need to wait until
July to requeen. You can also split your swarm into 2 hives for making some queens too from
the tf queen. I just bought a vsh queen, tf of course. Now I'm seeing eggs so going to do another
graft 4 days from now. Should be interesting to see how expressive is the vsh through out my apiary.


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