# Keeping Combe straight tricks



## Buzzlightyear (Dec 4, 2013)

First year for me.
I have a large swarm drawing lots of comb. Front 5 bars the comb was curved attached to 2 bars.
I removed some and straightened some.
I've pretty much let them do what they want.
What tricks are there to avoid crooked comb?
I've herd of flipping bars around while they are drawing does that work?
Some of the comb is straight but not quite centred on the bar.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Buzzlightyear said:


> First year for me.
> I have a large swarm drawing lots of comb. Front 5 bars the comb was curved attached to 2 bars.
> I removed some and straightened some.
> I've pretty much let them do what they want.
> ...


Constantly pinching the ends back to the center of the bar. And if you have some straight bars, put the empty ones in between them.

Level the hive very well.

How long across the hive are your bars. My TBHs have about an 18" opening on a 20" bar (so they can fit in a Langstroth). I know some of the folks have HUGELY long top bars of 23"+. I have no clue how you wouldn't have major curving problems with that big of a bar, especially when starting fresh with no comb as a guide.


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## Buzzlightyear (Dec 4, 2013)

Mine are about the same 18 x 1.25 90 deg bevel on the bottom.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Good comb guides help the most.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

shannonswyatt said:


> Good comb guides help the most.


Sounds like he has good ones, I have noticed that my one piece bars are a bit less likely to deviate from being straight. Tongue depressor ones are 85% as good, and about 100% easier and less time consuming to make. They do curve the ends more, but it's not been bad enough that I can't fix it every couple of weeks when we get into the hive.


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## Duncan MacLeod (Jul 24, 2014)

I have found that if you intervene with comb shaping quite a bit early on, then you save yourself trouble down the road. They are more likely to build brood comb straight and get especially creative with honey storage. Push, pull, cut, shape....make sure that those first several bars are straight and the rest will be much more likely to follow, especially as you add empty bars in between full ones. Then be vigilant again during flow, since they will build quickly. Once they build them to the shape of your hive, you will have all these nice hanging-file folders of honey and brood.

I once left a TBH alone for far too long and found that they hand run the honey at 90 degrees, radiator fins that crossed 9 or ten bars. What a mess!


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I have found that when they are strong and on a good flow building comb for stores it is very challenging if you don't go in often. When they are small it is hard to screw up, just don't let them get out of wack. Once you have a few hives it gets easier as well since you can rob straight comb to act as a comb guide.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The bees will not straighten what you think is a crooked comb, no matter what you do. Not only that, they will build the next comb parallel to that one, so unless you intervene the next one will be at least as bad. If you put empty bars between straight combs, this is the best way to get straight combs. If you have crooked combs, either straighten them or put them where they will not influence more combs.

One bad comb leads to another. One good comb leads to another.


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## Buzzlightyear (Dec 4, 2013)

Thanks for the help all.
I was on holidays for 12 days. Got back and they did quite a bit of building unfortunately not where I wanted.
Hopefully I can get things straightened out before it gets too late in the season.


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## DrWeevil (May 16, 2010)

I started my first TBH from a package. They didn't care for my 1-1/4" top bars. They have triangular cross section guides, and they do like those; but while they built straight combs at first, each subsequent one was offset more and more from the center, until they were far enough off center that they started crossing bars. I had to add 1/8" spacers to accommodate them. Now, many generations later, they accept the 1-1/4" spacing. If you started your hive from a package this may be an issue.


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## Buzzlightyear (Dec 4, 2013)

The bees in my TB came from a swarm out of a house. They are a little smaller than purchased.
I think I had all of the problems. curved at the front, straight in the middle, and offset as you go back.
I did an inspection today and tings are looking better.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

Buzzlightyear said:


> What tricks are there to avoid crooked comb?


It's my first year with TBH's so I can only speak from my own experience. I have hives, one with Russian hybrids, one with small cell bees. They are both building perfectly straight comb. The only thing I can think of is that I made sure the hives were level when they were placed (using a carpenter's level) and then they were checked again a few weeks later to make sure they hadn't shifted from settling into the ground (obviously before bees were installed). I live in New England and we have humongous "frost heaves" in the winter, so I expect that next spring I will have to re-check the level and make adjustments. I don't think the need for the hive to be level can be overemphasized.


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## mala54 (Jul 18, 2014)

My bees seem to build brood comb straight. One comb per bar. But the honey combs are almost always crossed and connected. I've tried spacers and wider bars, but neither worked. So I let them build however they want, and when I harvest capped honey I separate the comb with a knife. The bees clean up any comb and honey that falls to the bottom of the hive.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

The best trick is to use guides that give the best results. I started my first hive with foundation starter strips and had excellent results with all combs straight with the mid rib running down the center of each bar. It seemed so easy and was a pleasure to work the hive. From there I tried some of the other types of guides and found if I wasn't diligent I would too often find curved and offset combs. I do have hives that I may not get to for two weeks or more and find that foundation starter strips have always given the best results. The goal is to have the bees build comb with the mid rib centered along the full length of each bar. From there minor adjustments are all that is needed such as buttering back cell walls or trimming them back so that they are drawn out evenly on both sides of the mid rib. 

Often I start new colonies by shaking swarms with no need to make comb adjustments or pull bars for a month or more. One comb of brood to help glue them to the hive and fill the rest out with foundation starters or at least the portion of hive I think they will need for that length of time.


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## cryptobrian (Jan 22, 2012)

I created a "starter" bar using a sheet of foundation to help encourage alignment. 

http://billybsbees.blogspot.com/2014/07/top-bar-starter-comb.html

I also ended up using some drawn frames from a Lang as it would turn out. The point though, as others have mentioned, is that it helps to place empty bars between straight drawn bars. That's not possible when starting your first hive, thus the reason I created the starter bar with foundation.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Dang! Kind of defeats on the main purposes of a top bar if you put in that much foundation.


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## cryptobrian (Jan 22, 2012)

Not really. It may defeat the main purpose of *your* top bar, but certainly not mine. 

That said, if you read the blog entry you'd pick up on the fact that I do a lot of foundationless in my Langs as well. The choice to go foundationless isn't driven by the hive design.

But regardless, we are talking about a single bar out of maybe 30 ... and a temporary one at that. Really not a big deal for me.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Gotcha, I thought the thread was going down the path of what to do to keep comb straight in the honey stores.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

An empty bar between straight capped honey works. An empty bar between straight brood combs works and as the brood nest expands in the middle the outer edges will get filled with honey. I try to have most of the new comb being drawn where I want it (between straight capped honey or between straight brood combs) whenever I am in the hive.


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## Buzzlightyear (Dec 4, 2013)

Nice, I'm not against using some foundation to help in the beginning. Too late for this one, maybe in the future.


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## ckoester (May 22, 2014)

It's interesting how varied the advice is regarding comb guides. There are people claiming great results with each of the popular comb guides (Triangular, square, and foundation strips).

I have had great results with a triangular guide in my first top bar hive, but those bars are a major hassle to cut on a table saw. I may try a square wooden spline as a guide in my next hive, as the bars should be far easier to make. The drawing below shows what it looks like, and comes from "Drawings for a Proposed Standard Top Bar" by TJ Carr and John Bradford.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

I am 100% foundationless, but I am using Lang dimensions for my boxes. I tried all kind of "guides" for the comb. All of them sometimes work perfectly and sometime fail. After a few years in foundationless "business" I come to conclusion that my bees can learn how to build straight comb. Once they learned - they do straight comb without any guide. Moreover - they teach other bees how to do so - all my hives (not many) do straight comb in most cases. Sometime, bees are in "creative" mood - than you may see many different ways of comb-creativity!


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## Needo (Sep 10, 2013)

My bars are a little over 23 inches long (inside the hive). I have a 9 inch slit on the side of my hives near the end. I designated this end as the front. Whenever I add frames, I add the new frames near the front. So far it has worked for me. But, I have yet to see the bees make it through their first winter. That will be the real test.


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## mhorowit (Sep 25, 2011)

mala54 said:


> My bees seem to build brood comb straight. One comb per bar. But the honey combs are almost always crossed and connected. I've tried spacers and wider bars, but neither worked. So I let them build however they want, and when I harvest capped honey I separate the comb with a knife. The bees clean up any comb and honey that falls to the bottom of the hive.


How do you seperate the bees from the comb after it collapsed and everything is covered in honey? - Mike


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I think that what Mala54 is saying that when harvesting he (or she) cuts the comb from that bar and puts it in a bucket or what not by cutting at the end of the combs or by sliding multiple bars. I wouldn't think they mean to cut it and have it all fall into the hive. Just my guess.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

mhorowit said:


> How do you seperate the bees from the comb after it collapsed and everything is covered in honey? - Mike


It is difficult task! My setup is TBs in Lang-style hives. I always feel sorry for the bees stuck in the honey. So, basically, I just grab and remove from the hive as much as I can and bees clean up the rest. Little smoke can help. I have a special plastic container with lid for collected honeycomb. In my situation, I never had more than one comb collapsed and it is usually hold by surrounding combs - I just carefully cut it from the walls and bottom (sometime), create space enough for my hands and try to grab the whole thing - move it quickly into container and close the lid! If there are any pieces bigger than 1" - I quickly collect them also. If this approach is impossible (too much crosscomb), I just collect the whole box - the advantage of having TBs in Lang boxes. In my long hive, my honey TBs have short "sides" - it completely eliminated any comb-removing problems. For unknown to me reason, but I really have no problems with moving combs in the long-hive. Occasionally, I do have some cross-comb issues in vertical (TBs) Land-style hives - mainly because of my negligence.

At night, I open container with collected honeycomb and rescue bees - I do not know if they survived, but I feel less "serial killer."


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