# foulbrood



## droneman (Feb 19, 2003)

once foulbrood has been treated will it be gone forever as long as i do regular treatments


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

You don't say what treatment you're using, but I assume you mean TM. I further assume you're referring to AFB. No, it isn't permanent; it kills the active bacillus, but doesn't harm the spores. The only really permanent treatment is fire. Even if you've treated an infected hive, its far safer to shake down onto foundation and burn the comb. Personally I'd follow UK regulations and burn the colony. The biggest outbreak in UK history - over 100 colonies - was found not too far away last year. The guy just hadn't spotted it, and to spread so far it must have been in his colonies for a long time, probably several years. Its not something to mess about with.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's true the spores will still be around. It's also true that almost any hive anywhere has some of the spores around even if it doesn't have the disease. They tried the "eradication" approach here and it never worked.

Some believe it's an opportunistic disease. This means a strong healthy colony will get over it and a weak one will die.

IMHO. I have to admit, if I had a colony that was in really bad shape, I'd probably just burn the whole thing. But if it's doing well I think I would let it continue.


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## hoosierhiver (Feb 27, 2003)

i've read about the tenacity of foul brood spores and i think like nosema ,it's probably always there somewhere in your hive,even if not a problem.i think the old thinking of burning all infected hives may even prevent bees from adapting to the disease.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

If your bees really have AFB there only two ways to help, not an if or a maybe or I think

Way number one:

1.Take an empty hive and flame it with a torch till the wood starts getting black to make sure this hive is 100% clean.
2. Put new frames with new foundation in the hive and give all the bees in the hive.
3. Feed the new colony with a mixture of sugar water and TM (1 gallon liquid and approx ½ tablespoon TM). Dont put the TM in hot water, let it sit for an hour and then stir TM in, one week later the same.
4. Burn all the infected combs include the brood.
5. Always control this colony to make sure there is no new AFB.

Way number two:

1. Wait till all the bees are home and close the entrance with an old rag.
2. Make I big fire round the hive and burn everything.

Its hard I know but I cant give you a better idea.


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## mark williams (Jan 19, 2003)

any woodware (used) I get I boil it in lye water,It will kill the AFB spores.plus help's removes the old paint,


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

It's well established that some colonies can withstand the disease, but this is as much genetic as anything; some strains develop sufficient hygeinic behaviour to handle it. If it was just colony strength that guy I mentioned would surely not have had an outbreak on that scale.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I don't mean to start a war but the dude from the beltsville lab says that flame won't kill the spores of AFB, nor will lye. Radiation will though and Fla and Mass have this as a legal possibility. Here in Ct the law says you have to burn an infected hive.

Dickm


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Dickm

but the dude from the beltsville lab says that flame won't kill the spores of AFB, nor will lye.

Dickm, do you know that DUDE personally? I hope it was the caretaker and not an chemical engineer.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Axtman,
The man is "research leader" at one of our primary bee labs.( U S Dept of Agriculture). He's as far from a janitor as you can get. Over here a deep hive body is about $9.00. It's not a catastrophe to burn it. I assume you wouldn't think of using anything else. OOPs, I forgot the covers and bottom boards. Here in Ct I can pack that stuff in a cardboard box,(frames and all) and drive to Mass. for 4 hours and get them irradiated for $7.50. I think it's Gamma radiation. 

Since foulbrood is only held in check by TM and not eliminated, the spores left over after a good toasting may merely bring things back to normal. 

Dickm


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## fat/beeman (Aug 23, 2002)

well as a old time beekeeper trying to keep up to date and not wanting to sound so stupid but its a far better thing to burn a whole hive or two then to lose a hundred I run a least 50 to a yard and still think its cheaper in the long run to burn and you know for sure its gone=gone and safer verses cheaper????
Don


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## droneman (Feb 19, 2003)

WOW THATS WHAT I CALL A REPLY ITS ALL GOING TO THE FIRE THANKS FOR THE REPLYS DRONEMAN


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## spectret (Mar 15, 2003)

alabama bee inspector came today. i just started this year(4 weeks to be exact) 3 hives all new equiptment and package bees came from same place on april 11....I had two deeps on them....kinda hurt seeing them all burn...dont know how i got american foulbrood...not a thing was used...all new...i'm a cryin!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Four week old hives on brand new equipment... new foundation or old combs ? If it was from foundation you were screwed by a know nothing bee inspector. We used to have them here... they only inspected to collect a fee from the state... but had no beekeeping experience.


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## mark williams (Jan 19, 2003)

all new equ.did'nt it have to come with the bee's? did he give you any ideal where?maybe or anything? I live just east of you.sure would like to know.


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

spectret,
How did the inspector determine that the hive was infected? 
I don't know very much about the "Life Cycle" of the disease and I'm only guessing here, but I think that with a new hive with only one cycle of brood, it would be very difficult to determine without a laboratory
involved. "I might be wrong" (DM)



------------------
Dave Verville
Fremont, NH USA


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

You can find the AFB spores only in a laboratory not in the field. http://www.imkerhomepage.de/imkerpraxis/faulbrut/faulbrut.html http://www.echter-honig.de/Bienen/Bienenkrankheitenbakteriell.htm http://www.westerwald-imkerei.de/html/faulbrut.html 

Here a few picture how the AFB locks like.


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

If you really started from foundation I find it very surprising that you had AFB after four weeks. Its not impossible, but shaking a hive down onto foundation used to be a recognised form of treatment. It did occasionally recur - I recently heard of a swarm that developed the disease - but it would probably have had to be a bad case for this to occur.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Why burn hives? It is my understanding that AFB is present everywhere. It is something that strong/unstressed hives can handle and then there is TM as a last result.

To burn hives and then find out that the guy down the road has it and passed it to you, or a bee inspectors tool/equipment transmitted to your supposedly new untainted equipment-RIDICULOUS!

A pin head size amount of spores can theoretically infect an entire state. To scorch a hive, I dont think you can actually eliminate every spore from every crack, etc.

It is controllable-do not burn entire hives in an attempt to eliminate this.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Some states still have burning as the the way to treat. Some treatment!

You don't have a choice in those places.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

For some states to burn as a way of treatment, knowing that most hives have the spores, then allow migratory beekeeping to to pass through the area- this shows how some states need to get on board with the program.

Can you imagine burning your colonies and starting over to find out some migratory beekeeper infected your new hives again?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It is hard to imagine. Luckily for me, I live in a state where the required treatment is terramycin and there are no inspectors.


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## Canoeman (May 1, 2003)

Dickm,
I live in MA, where would you go to have the hives Radiated?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Do you have an uncontrollable situation with foulbrood that you would bother with radiation/cost/inconvenience/etc.

If this was an isolated outbreak, and elimination of the foulbrood would keep the area clean, then I could see it. But as I mentioned four posts ago, the spores are about everywhere. It is something that can be managed with proper site selection, hive ventilation, healthy queens, etc. Medication (Not always a bad thing) can be used as a last result. I did not say preventative; -something to many do.

Why radiate something that you may end up having a short time afterwards?


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Canoeman,
I haven't personally been there but one of my club members took a truckload up there, of a batch of used equipment he bought. I'll try to find out where but I'd suggest you call your state bee people. If they don't know, fire them!

Dickm


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Our State Legislature fired all of ours two years ago. Fortunatley, or unfortunately they didn't replace them.


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## spectret (Mar 15, 2003)

the inspector put a matchstick in cell of new hives. they were new everything from bees down to foundation and frames,,,nothing used.he stuck matchstick in and yellow string came out of cell. larvae was white not black. he said it was foulbrood like down the road and i had to burn it immediately. i have a frame of it in freezer. trying to find out where i can send it to see(even if it is too late. peace of mind...if he was wrong he's gonna get a piece of my mind all right)
none of the larvae were grey or dead in frames. in less than four weeks the bees had drawn out 5 frames(3 completely on both sides and had them full of brood,pollen and uncapped honey) they were workin a storm.
I emailed the apiary in Ga where i got them and asked him what to do but mr rossman hasnt gotten back to me yet but i am sure he will soon.
But to answer ya'lls question. in alabama it is dig a 18 inch hole, raid bees to kill them all, put hive and all in hole, gasoline on top and cry as you watch it burn....then bury remains(ashes) in that hole.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have never actually seen foulbrood and have no personal experience or observations, but I have read a lot and seen a lot of pictures of it. I don't think that sounds very definitive for a test of brood that doesn't look like foulbrood to start with.

Fortunately for me, in Nebraska, if I did have it, and if an inspector (of which there are none) identified it, I would only be required to treat with terramycin.

I sypmpathize with you. I would hate to see such a thing myself.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

Try this link; http://www.barc.usda.gov/psi/brl/directs.htm 
Jack


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## spectret (Mar 15, 2003)

my test came back...my bees were free of afb
i torched the hives and bees for nothing


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Do you have any recourse? It was probably EFB or nothing.


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## mark williams (Jan 19, 2003)

Spectret:could you not hold the state responsible for your lost? I think I'd get to the bottom of it.>>>>>>>Mark


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It seems like you were deprived of property without due process and now that the facts are in, you were deprived of it in error.

Maybe life's too short and it's not worth it, but I would be tempted to try to get someone in power to listen.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Send them a bill for damages. Include a copy of the lab report.
--Mike


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## mark williams (Jan 19, 2003)

M.Bush & loggermike both is right.We (as tax payer's)pay these people's wages look's to me like he don't know his job.I don't know my job I don't eat.I live just east of you. I think the same person that checked your bees is the one that cover's my area also If it is the same one this is not the first time I've heard of him messing-up.If we work together on this as Michael said we can get someone in power to listen.I'd like to have someone in the know to check my bee's because I'm going commercal in the future,But I don't want that BOZO on my place.If you can spectret.find out his name & I'll check & see if it's the same one that messed my buddy up over here. Please feel free to e- mail me anytime>>>>>Mark


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

I emailed both Spectret and Mark - I live in Alabama and would like to help. The bee inspector program in this state is new and I was afraid this was going to be the result. Let's get together on this and get this resolved.

------------------
Rob Koss


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## WineMan (May 16, 2003)

Anyone checked into whether your state reimburses for hives that are burnt with foulbrood? Florida use to....not sure if they still do or not.


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## spectret (Mar 15, 2003)

no recourse taken. in alabama you dont get compensated for losses. As others said i should have sent off sample before torching them. inspector was advising me on what should be done but it was my responsibility to get lab work done. 
at least it was just two hives not 20 like one of the older gentlemen in our bee association! 
they say there is a afb problem here in cullman/blount county so i guess they are being cautious...but me just starting in bees<my dad had them til 90 when verroa started here and he got out)I will not make mistake again next year. 

I am troubled that the bees were from packages and new equiptment from rossmans in ga. i wrote him and he never replied. the bees results came back with high population of verroa mites on the larvea in comb(had bees less than four weeks) so they could of came in with them. I figured rossmans would at least check it out and see if bees had anything wrong with them. but i could be wrong, maybe verroa can build up quick in new equiptment without bees having them to begin with. when verroa came here, dad got out cause they didnt know how to treat them back then.
i am going to all american/buckfast bees next year and my hubby is building me hives out of some good oak he came by free so if nothing else my stained hives will be pretty as well as practical. went through enough nails nailing into the oak so it will stand up to test of time with the varnishing and all.


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## mark williams (Jan 19, 2003)

Spectret:Ilive in Bount Co & I'm not aware of any afb,here.Did that same insp- tell you that.as far as the buckfast bee's & this is just me,I would'nt order any thing from R.Weaver if he was the only one that had Bees I'd quit.>>>>>>Mark


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

So the bees had varroa damaged brood?That is amazing.Usually takes a lot longer for that to happen.Not surprised the inspector thought it was AFB, it kinda looks like it, but I ve looked at hundreds of mite killed hives and never saw any of the dead brood 'string out' like AFB.My guess would be the packages were highly infested with varroa,but I would think Rossmans would have a handle on it if anyone would.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Equipment has nothing to do with Varroa. The Varroa can't live for long without bees to feed on. They can pick up an infestation fairly quickly if they are robbing out a hive that is failing to Varroa.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>They can pick up an infestation fairly quickly if they are robbing out a hive that is failing to Varroa.

That is true of course,but that tends to be a Fall scenario, at least around here.But you wouldnt know if last years swarms or someone elses hives were collapsing somewhere within flight distance.Bad deal all around .I have seen overwintered hives pick up infestations in late spring but didnt show any damage till late July.Could be the small number of bees were just overwhelmed by the amount of mites they brought in.Or there was something else going on in addition to the mites.Hard to say.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It tends to be a fall scenerio here too, but sometimes a hive barely makes it through the winter and get's robbed out in the spring.


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