# Formic acid



## s&j (May 28, 2012)

Hi, 
Due to a cold and rainy summer here this year, many of our hives are just building up an extra surplus of honey now. They have enough for themselves but any they make from here on in could be removed. Last night we put in formic acid pads for mite prevention in winter brood, but we are wondering if we could use any of they honey we take in a few weeks, or if the formic acid makes it un-consumable for people. Maybe we should take some of what's there now and let them restock themselves? 
Thank you for the advice,
S&J


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2012)

It is my understanding you cannot use any honey that is in
the same box. Hive or supper that has any chemical in it.
I believe it even states on the package, Not to use when collecting Honey. 
My self I don't like formic Acid Pads. it is to hard on brood. 
In Washington State I use Hop guard strips Gentle on brood tough on mites.
Harold


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## s&j (May 28, 2012)

Thanks Harold, we will look into Hop Guard. We wouldn't be selling any honey, just for ourselves, but I want to make sure its safe. 
I found this on the MiteAway QuickStrips website: 

3) Subject: Treating with honey supers on.
Q) Can I really treat with honey super on? Why does it not flavour the honey?
A) Formic acid naturally occurs in honey at levels ranging up to over 2,000 parts per million (ppm). The formic acid concentration in hive air during MAQS treatment remains well below 100 ppm, so the levels in the honey do not go outside of naturally occurring levels.

I'd like to believe this but don't have enough experience with it  
(and we are not using MiteAway, we are using a slow release treatment with a lower % of formic acid called MiteGone)


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## [email protected] (May 12, 2010)

Read and follow the Directions!!!!!!!!!!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It occurs naturally in honey. There should be nothing wrong w/ honey produced w. formic acid pads on hives. It's my understanding that that's why Mite Away Quick Strips were developed.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

s&j said:


> (and we are not using MiteAway, we are using a slow release treatment with a lower % of formic acid called MiteGone)


check with the mitegone internet site if that is what you are using the person that sells the stuff has all kinds of information there, if you want to ask him direct he at times posts on bee-l


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Formic acid pads are fine for use with honey supers on. It is the reason I used it this year instead of Apiguard.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> It occurs naturally in honey. There should be nothing wrong w/ honey produced w. formic acid pads on hives.


Why doesn't the honey kill the mites?


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

> Why doesn't the honey kill the mites?


Because mites don't eat honey.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mites eat formic acid?


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## s&j (May 28, 2012)

Thanks everyone! We will get all the info we can from the MiteGone website and if it's ok, will proceed with care and leave the supers on. Hopefully next year the weather cooperates and we can pull full supers before we apply mite treatment - that's how it worked last year


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Mites eat formic acid?


Not willingly;


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## s&j (May 28, 2012)

I've read that the mites have softer bodies than bees and the formic acid wrecks their feet. They fall off the bees and die in the gas that settles at the bottom of the hive. Die scum!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

So it is a gas that the bees can breath or do the mites have to walk on the pads or strips?If it is a gas that settles then I would think having supers on would decrease it's effectiveness and having a top entrance would really decrease it's effectiveness.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

It is a fumigant. It kills mites on the bees themselves but primary purpose is to kill male mites in capped brood cells so that females have a difficult time mating. Male mites only live in the capped brood cells and as a result never form a hard outer shell (carapace) and are particularly susceptible to formic acid fumes. The formic vapors penetrate the cell and kill the male mites. No male mites for the female foundress mite to mate with and the population dives quickly. About 95% efficacy.

Having supers on is fine as you are targeting the male mites in the brood nest primarily. They actually suggest adding a box so the bees can move into it until the vapor level drops but has already killed the male mites in the brood nest. Top entrances are considered fine as long as they are not too big.

After treatment testing shows that formic acid levels in honey and comb are not increased above naturally occurring levels. 

It works great but is hard on the bees.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Is this a one shot deal?
If it were a one shot deal you could remove all the capped brood from a hive and destroy it killing the male mites in the carnage (man made brood break). But don't the females lay more male eggs? So if you don't kill the females you would have to do it at least twice whether it is formic acid or physically culling brood.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Sure, I guess you could kill all of your brood if you want. Give it a try and let us know how it works out for you!


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## s&j (May 28, 2012)

Isn't that kind of the point of drone foundation? More mites are produced in drone cells so if most drones are layed on one frame and you remove it, you remove a fair amount of mites too?


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Yes, but drones don't care for brood or gather honey so they are considered "expendable".


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I think if you are treating your bees with formic acid you have already determined that some are expendable even if it doesn't happen instantly.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

"Expendable" has some negative connotations but nevertheless all life is expendable in the long run; dieing is a very necessary part of life!

Keith, do you suppose there is any difference in the effect on honey between flash treatments like formic on meat pads compared to the timed release of formic from products like MAQS? It seems only recently that there is starting to be any admitting to acceptability of ANY treatment with honey on. I am wondering if the same applies to Oxalic. I dont think there is any comparison to the bio-accumulative and resistance creating agents like coumaphos, fluvalinate, fumigillin etc.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Trust me. MAQS is a flash treatment. 

I have not tried any of the other treatments so I won't comment on them. 

I would let my son eat all the honey he wants from the hives I have treated with MAQS. To me that is my own personal test.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I dont have a problem either (at least I dont perceive one) I am just wondering why the change in protocol re treating with formic. Why are the MAQS considered a one treatment system and other formic applications need multiple apps?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

crofter said:


> It seems only recently that there is starting to be any admitting to acceptability of ANY treatment with honey on.


Many things are acceptable if it doesn't kill you right away. Take smoking for instance.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I use FA as a flash treatment, using a fumigator board, I just give them a shot of acid the board comes off next day, job done.

Never been able to detect the taste in honey although in theory it is possible.

What happens, FA is volatile, readily vaporising. The vapor goes through the hive and if done right kills the mites. In the process it will be absorbed into any honey it comes into contact with. But hey, it's volatile. So right after treatment it starts vaporising right out of the honey again.

Not sure about US legal requirements, but I believe there is a maximum legally allowed amount of FA in honey, or so I've been told. Just leaving the honey on the hive for a while will usually sort this. Re effects on your health, in the kind of quantities we are talking about, probably less of a worry than whatever is in a glass of coke.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Many things are acceptable if it doesn't kill you right away. Take smoking for instance.


We can always find a saying to support a course of action; some even adhere to the philosophy that wounds not killing you outright, make you stronger (words to help you fight a bit longer). Ultimately we have to prioritize what to spend our worry allowance on; dont sweat the petty stuff!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> probably less of a worry than whatever is in a glass of coke.


You are comparing poison to another poison. How about comparing it to celery or a ripe tomato.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well, how about it Ace. How much FA is naturally in a celery or a ripe tomato?

Where your talk of poison is missing the mark is that many natural things can be a poison, in too much quantity. Salt can be a poison, water can be a poison. How much FA is natural in honey? Not enough to be a poison.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If it kills something I think it is a poison. Now the grey area is does is kill what you want and not kill what you don't want and if long term treatments are cumulative or not. If it is a one shot deal that is one thing but if it is a practice that is another.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ah, the grey area.

The grey area is that our bodies are slowly dieing, as we constantly fight small quantities of things our bodies have to excrete / deal with. This also applies to Indian tribes living in the South American jungle and having a natural diet.

So, with all our artificial poisons, (formic acid is a natural one in too much quantity), how come we live longer than they do?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Lots of stuff in high doses can kill you, 'poison' or not. Formic will evap from honey in time according to most people. Mites have less tolerance to formic than bees, the theory is their carapace is much thinner and is permeated quicker. Brood in a certain stage is susceptible because it does not have a barrier built up to block FA absorption.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good summary.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> If it kills something I think it is a poison. Now the grey area is does is kill what you want and not kill what you don't want and if long term treatments are cumulative or not. If it is a one shot deal that is one thing but if it is a practice that is another.


It's a Treatment. You are a Treatment Free Beekeeper. Of course you are going to see Formic and its use in a negative light. Maybe, since you are not going to use Formic in any form you should not Post so many negative Posts when others wish to discuss and learn about Formic and how to use it.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

LOL, some irony to that. Maybe we should take some polls and make a whole lot of rules, definitions, etc for this thread. 

But hey, good to see Ace back.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Where does one buy formic acid in the correct concentration?


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Univar.com would be a good place to start if you want to make your own stuff. They have outlets all over the place. Search in the Yellow Pages for Chemical Suppliers.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> It's a Treatment. You are a Treatment Free Beekeeper.


Depends on who you ask. I wish to discuss and learn about Formic because it is a natural substance. One I am not ready to use yet but knowing what it is and how it works is essential to my future decisions.
Wouldn't culling all the brood kill male mites like FA without using FA? I still did not get a good answer whether FA is a one shot deal and what would prevent impregnated females from depositing more male eggs after the treatment?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Wouldn't culling all the brood kill male mites like FA without using FA? I still did not get a good answer whether FA is a one shot deal ...


Do you have any idea what taking all of the brood away from a colony would do to that colony?
How would you do that? Take all of the brood frames out of your hive and set them out where bees could rob thew honey and yoent necassary.ur chickens could peck away at the larvae and pupae?

The Mite Away Quick Strips (aka MAQS), a formic acid treatment material is applied once. No second treatment necassary until mites appear in sufficient numbers.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Wouldn't culling all the brood kill male mites like FA without using FA? I still did not get a good answer whether FA is a one shot deal and what would prevent impregnated females from depositing more male eggs after the treatment?


I think Formic is a "one shot deal" only if you are using a product like MAQS that has an extended life in the hive. we have applied it on a meat type of pad and had a real good knockdown but it required retreating. That tells me the impregnated females in the sealed brood were not getting killed. I quit using it because it is such nasty stuff to handle and thymol seemed to do at least as good a job.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

OK so culling all the brood should get the males and all the impregnated females in one treatment. Is that true? The females can only get impregnated in the capped brood, right?

Mark, I didn't say it would be easy but hobbyist have a lot of time on their hands. Secondly, multiple treatments ad up. Thirdly, if you are selling your honey for 10 bucks a pound instead of 2 bucks a pound you might have to work a little more for it.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

How much of that honey are you going to get if you kill all your brood?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Culling all the brood would still leave ~ 20% of the mites on the bees. Treatments that disabled the first male mite in the cell would severely limit the success rate of the female. The time frame is tight.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

crofter said:


> Culling all the brood would still leave ~ 20% of the mites on the bees. Treatments that disabled the first male mite in the cell would severely limit the success rate of the female. The time frame is tight.


Correct me if I am wrong but they can't bread because there are no males and they are not impregnated so they can't lay any male eggs.


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## Radar (Sep 4, 2006)

My take on this is that the 20% that are on the bees were already impregnated while they were in the cells. As the males do not wander round inside the hive there is no way that it could be otherwise


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Now you are talking timing which would indicate that the procedure would have to be done twice or last long enough for two cycles.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Mark, I didn't say it would be easy but hobbyist have a lot of time on their hands. Secondly, multiple treatments ad up. Thirdly, if you are selling your honey for 10 bucks a pound instead of 2 bucks a pound you might have to work a little more for it.


All of which avoids answering the question. What will happen to the colony when all of its brood is gone?

How will the adult mites react too?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but they can't bread because there are no males and they are not impregnated so they can't lay any male eggs.


Do you know where the male mites come from?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Now you are talking timing which would indicate that the procedure would have to be done twice or last long enough for two cycles.


MAQS are supposed to be effective for 6 weeks. They are probably effective for longer than that if left in the hives.


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## Radar (Sep 4, 2006)

The formic acid works on varroa in capped cells if all the information is correct, it was your suggestion to remove all brood from the hive, that was what I was responding to.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> So it is a gas that the bees can breath or do the mites have to walk on the pads or strips?If it is a gas that settles then I would think having supers on would decrease it's effectiveness and having a top entrance would really decrease it's effectiveness.


I believe that formic may be a heavier than air gas. Though it does blow around in the wind when applied. It is applied between the brood supers or on top of the brood supers and appears to be effective. I don't think top entrances would make a difference.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> What will happen to the colony when all of its brood is gone?


I will assume you will have a brood break until the queen can lay more eggs. For a time the population will decline much like a split.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I use a one shot 24 hour method, here's a link to the inventors of this system. You have to scroll to page 22, before that is talking about their other product, HBH.

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/VarroaMitesppt.pdf

Despite the instructions sounding pretty straightforward, it's taken me several years to really get this method down. It really only works on a strong hive full of bees, no empty parts of the hive where the bees can vent the fumes without them going through the cluster. So I use it as a fall treatment just after honey comes off.

It's a 24 hour treatment only so the theory is it has to kill mites in the cells. Currently I'll get a 95% + kill in around 75% of the hives I treat. I check all hives a few weeks after treatment and those that still have mites get another treatment, which for some reason, gets a good kill in nearly all hives treated.

Cost depends on where I get the acid from but something around $0.40 per treatment.

The biggest problem with the method is a fair bit of skill is needed, just exactly how I do it depends on the weather and the strength of the hive. Temperature and humdity has to be taken into account plus the makeup of the hive, so I'll vary the amount of acid, amount of entrance restriction, and time of day I apply the treatment accordingly. This has taken a while to figure out but I now have a "feel" for it & get reasonable results. 

It doesn't take a lot of time. When I'm harvesting honey I'll take the fumigator boards with me. One gets laid next to each hive, I walk around the yard tipping a measured quantity of acid onto each one, which will vary slightly depending how I assessed the hive. Then I walk around the yard putting them on the hives and closing the hives. A return trip is required next day to take them off, and the boards can go straight to the next days yards and be used again.

For a large commercial beekeeper the system could be used, but would require fairly intricate planning as timing is essential. Flexibilty would also be needed as weather plays a part, and you couldn't do it with unskilled labor. Or you could, if you were there yourself to supervise.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but they can't bread because there are no males and they are not impregnated so they can't lay any male eggs.


I think you should look up the varroa life cycle.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Re the discussion about brood removal as a treatment and it's effect on the hive, I have tried this on a reasonably strong two box hive. I removed every last bit of brood and replaced with empty comb. Then, to get any mites that had been phoretic at that time, I removed the brood again just under 3 weeks later. 
This did indeed get rid of nearly all mites in the hive. But by the time the third cycle of brood started hatching and the hive was back to normal, the hive was reduced to around 2/3rds a box of bees, from the origional 2 boxes. Without mites though, it did build back fairly quickly.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I will assume you will have a brood break until the queen can lay more eggs. For a time the population will decline much like a split.


No, more like a package. Meaning it will be three weeks before any new adult bees emerge. Can your colonies stand that?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Can the colony stand a major infestation of mites? Which is the worst of the evils, mites, chemicals, or brood break (in the long run)?



> I think you should look up the varroa life cycle.


I did. The females mate in the capped cells. I think with just one brood culling you will crash the mite numbers enough to save the colony. Is it possible that when the queen shuts down in the fall laying workers continue for a short spell and then the colony uncaps the drones to kill off the mites naturally before winter?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> No, more like a package. Meaning it will be three weeks before any new adult bees emerge. Can your colonies stand that?


How long is it when you split a hive and they raise their own queen?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The difference is that there is brood emerging while the queen is being raised. Whereas when all brood is removed, no brood can emerge.

By the way, male mites come from their Mothers, who they mate w/ to produce female mites. At least that is what I think I was told. Check it out.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think this is the way it works; The female mite enters the cell bred, having been impregnated by her first born brother in a previous cycle in a brood cell. She only mates once. The male will occasionally couple with his mother but break off contact, because his dna is identical to his mothers. Like the drone bee, he has a mother but no father.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

What I was told was the first mite egg laid is male, followed at intervals by female eggs. The male mates with the females after they hatch but before they leave the cell.

BTW this sounds majorly incestous. To get around this problem, ideally, to a mite, they like more than one female mother in a cell, so the progeny can cross breed. 

So, if you can target the male, any females cannot mate. Once they emerge from the cell it's too late for them and they go through their life infertile.

Here's something interesting I've discovered that I've not seen in any literature. I use full drone combs to get good drone production. I can pick out (with a cappings scratcher), all the drone larvae from a comb. Almost none of them will have mites. But the few that do, will have up to a dozen mother mites with them. Clearly they like to congregate. But the strange thing is, in hives that have no dedicated drone comb but just scattered drone comb the bees have squeezed in here and there, the mites seem to distribute fairly evenly among available drone brood.

Why is that? Don't know. It's what I observe when I'm checking, but I don't know why it is.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I was under the impression that the extended gestation period of the drone allows for a second cycle, correct? Anyone?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Haven't heard that but it could be possible, although based on the the research I've read on the breeding cycle, the time frame involved would not allow mites from the next generation to mature, if it does happen.

However when I've found multiple mother mites I know they all went into the one cell, because I'll find them on just capped larvae they have not reproduced yet.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Not enough time for an extra generation within the same cap to emergence time. The extended length of drone duration does give time though for several more mite eggs to get through their 10 day egg to maturity cycle. Average number of new mature mites to emerge per female entering is about 2 on worker brood and about 3 on drone brood. 50% more successful on drones. If more than 2 females enter a cell pre capping, they tend to kill the host and die in the process. Cant put my finger on a quote but the first round of egg laying after a brood break can also become a sacrifice as it gets gang banged by too many mites entering.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

crofter said:


> Not enough time for an extra generation within the same cap to emergence time. The extended length of drone duration does give time though for several more mite eggs to get through their 10 day egg to maturity cycle. Average number of new mature mites to emerge per female entering is about 2 on worker brood and about 3 on drone brood. 50% more successful on drones. If more than 2 females enter a cell pre capping, they tend to kill the host and die in the process. Cant put my finger on a quote but the first round of egg laying after a brood break can also become a sacrifice as it gets gang banged by too many mites entering.


Interesting, I was pretty sure that there was some sort of breeding advantage in drone brood in addition to being more attractive to mites in the larval stage.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes, the advantage is the longer pupation gives time for that extra juvenile mite to mature. (As per Crofter).


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

it is my understanding that on their original host the varroa mites only feed and reproduce on drone larvae and pupae.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Yes Mark, that is the problem when pests get past previous geographical barriers and hosts have no previous developed strategy to deal with them. Happened here too, when we Europeans introduced disease to aboriginals. However we wring our hands a bell cannot be un-wrung so we just have to get on dealing with the new reality.

Find us a synthetic pheremone we can apply to a trap frame that will trick 100% of the mites into laying in it. The world will beat a path to your door!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> So, if you can target the male, any females cannot mate. Once they emerge from the cell it's too late for them and they go through their life infertile.


So my theory and it is only a theory, if you cull the capped brood only you are killing both male and female which will prevent the mated females from eventually laying another male egg. It has got to make a difference.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> I was under the impression that the extended gestation period of the drone allows for a second cycle, correct? Anyone?


That is what I read to be true.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> That is what I read to be true.


Can you give us the source that you interpret claims that a female mite can lay eggs that can mature and in turn successfully reproduce within the 13 day timeframe from capping to emergence of a drone? The reproductive cycle of Varroa Destructor is considered to be 10 days. 

A larger cohert, yes; an extra cycle, no.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

crofter said:


> Can you give us the source that you interpret claims that a female mite can lay eggs that can mature and in turn successfully reproduce within the 13 day timeframe from capping to emergence of a drone? The reproductive cycle of Varroa Destructor is considered to be 10 days.
> 
> A larger cohert, yes; an extra cycle, no.


Are you kidding me? Its on the internet . FWIW if I were a hobbyist with a few hives in my backyard my first weapon in the fight against varroa would be putting an empty frame in the middle of the brood nest and cutting out the resulting frame of drone brood monthly and I could probably do it in a couple of hives in the time it takes to brew a pot of coffee. I wouldnt even consider any other chemicals or compounds until I had given that an honest effort. If that seems wasteful then melt down the removed comb in a solar melter to get some wonderful light chemical free wax.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

crofter said:


> Can you give us the source that you interpret claims that a female mite can lay eggs that can mature and in turn successfully reproduce within the 13 day timeframe from capping to emergence of a drone?


http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~msbain/elbka/Varroa destructor.pdf



> In summer mites can manage 2
> reproductive cycles producing ~ 8 daughters if using drone brood.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~msbain/elbka/Varroa destructor.pdf


Ok, thanks; I think I can see how the confusion arizes that the varroa mite can complete more than one reproductive cycle during a bees reproduction cycle. The gist of what it is saying is that a mite can produce up to two reproductive cycles in her breeding life which is part of one summer, and if she chooses drone brood to have 4 daughters on each of two separate cycles in the comb cell.



" Although the mother mite can lay more eggs (and they sometimes do), none of those additional progeny will have time to mature into adult mites before the honey bee emerges from the brood cell. In fact, the egg (the 3rd daughter for this particular mother mite) in the picture to the left has only a 13% chance of reaching adulthood. "

Read this article, I think it is fairly comprehensive in description of the process. http://www.ars.usda.gov/services/docs.htm?docid=2744&page=14 and will show why it is mathematically impossible to complete more than one reproductive cycle within the development time of even a drone and scarcely time to net three offspring in a cycle on worker brood.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

An excellent example of how fallacies arise. Somebody reads something, doesn't quite understand right and his own belief system suits his misunderstanding, and the new "fact" is locked in far as he is concerned, along with references, he thinks.

There was one a while ago where a guy was claiming the old story that smoke works because bees think there is a fire and will have to abandon the hive, so they rush off and eat honey and then get too fat and lazy to fly, and sting you. Nobody else was buying it, but he was adamant, as he claimed this had been told him buy an entomologist who specialized in lecturing on bees.
Eventually the entomologist was contacted, and confirmed he has said nothing of the sort and believed smoke worked by overcoming the bees alarm pheremones.

But because the first guy heard something the DR said and somehow in his mind twisted it till it suited his own pre held beliefs, he now had an eminent professor on his side, references, and a new belief that was now indisputable, to him if nobody else.

So it is with much on internet chat sites.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer, I am learning too. Thanks for the clarification but cycles to me were one egg after another not female daughters breading with their brothers and laying eggs in the same cell. But I did notice in this article that the average number of breeding cycles is 3 for the females so if you don't kill the females they can just continue breading in the next bee brood cycle. The only way formic acid is effective is it lasts for more than one breeding cycle.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Oldtimer, I am learning too. Thanks for the clarification but cycles to me were one egg after another not female daughters breading with their brothers and laying eggs in the same cell. But I did notice in this article that the average number of breeding cycles is 3 for the females so if you don't kill the females they can just continue breading in the next bee brood cycle. *The only way formic acid is effective is it lasts for more than one breeding cycle*.


I dont know what you are attempting to establish by the bolded part of your quote. Yes we are all here to learn but some seem a bit refractory to the process. Lets see now, where were we.......?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Actually it was a pretty interesting Link Acebird, I've saved it. One part that may be of interest to treatment free folks is it says mites slowly build up and kill the hive in 3 to 5 years, not becoming obvious till shortly before the end.

Kind of stacks up against what a lot of treatment free folks say, that crunch time often comes for them after year 3. They also tend to let die what dies, and make it up with splits. This splitting will divide the mite population and set back the 3 to 5 year timetable to death. The TF beekeeper is confirmed in his belief that he has, or is breeding, resistant bees.


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## Radar (Sep 4, 2006)

<The only way formic acid is effective is it lasts for more than one breeding cycle.>

Acebird I am beginning to worry about you.

The whole point about using Formic is the brief time it needs to be in the hive.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Six weeks is brief?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not in the case of MAQS Radar. You slap them on and leave them. Their effects last more than three weeks. Supposedly killing mites w/in capped cells. It may also kill some brood, at times.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

MAQS is in the hive for seven days. It actually does most of it's work in the first 72 hours. After that you can sniff them without burning your nose.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It will kill the mites on the bees (phoretic) in a flash treatment of a few days but the MAQs and some other systems seem to have a timed release effect that allows the fume to work its way through the capping and get the mites within the cells. I have looked at some of the drip feed ideas to toy with and would like to confirm by test how much if any perceptable change in honey taste. I have MAQS on order but BO. The bulk formic I have on hand. Complication is honey not quite sufficiently capped and weather too cool for formic just around the corner.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Go ahead and treat Crofter I have treated with honey on and never been able to taste it in the honey. (That's assuming you are not selling it commercially in which case it may be tested to levels below what you can taste).


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The link that crafter posted in post#73 is excellant and should be required reading for all beekeepers. It really emphasizes to me that while there might be lots of ways to kill and control mites, true success in the battle against varroa is never going to be achieved until there is a way of controlling or "short circuiting" mite reproduction. How many other living things exist by inbreeding in such a way?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Keth Comollo said:


> MAQS is in the hive for seven days. It actually does most of it's work in the first 72 hours. After that you can sniff them without burning your nose.


Keth; I missed your post on the MAQS. There must be something essentially different in the way they release the formic acid. I seem to remember something about it being a formic ester and is activated by exposure to moisture instead of simply vaporizing from the liquid component. Liquid formic acid certainly is potent to the nose if there is one drop left in the bottom of a barrel. Correct me if I am wrong because I am wildly conjecturing here!

Oldtimer, thanks for your experience re. the taste factor. I have also heard that the hopguard aroma is not noticeable on the honey though the smell seems to linger on my gloves. These hives will be for personal consumption but my sons' 35 or so hives have to be by the book, so to speak.


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## Radar (Sep 4, 2006)

Sorry I thought formic acid was used for 1 day and taken out the next, surely the rate of evaporation would mean that it was unnecessary to leave it any longer, at what % formula would last for 3 weeks. Would it take 3 weeks to kill the mites in the cells I thought it was almost instant.

Now I am curious, I have not heard that we have MAQS over here yet


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Radar said:


> Now I am curious, I have not heard that we have MAQS over here yet


Maybe not. They are made in Canada.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Here is a link to a drip feeder for formic acid. Being a bit of a gadgeteer this is appealing! This is made in Canada too, Mark. 

http://www.formicdrip.ca/


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Interesting idea but it runs counter to what I think would constitute an effective treatment. Sounds more like sub-lethal dosage more than the one "big blast" it would take to be effective. Run a side-by-side and let us know.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Nah, Jim, I want to make the little barstids suffer; death by a thousand cuts! You may be entirely correct. The one shot deal is around 30 cc. and the drip method needs >6 up to 12 cc per 24 hours for a number of days. Perhaps it takes a prolonged period to work through the cappings to get the ones in the brood. I thought the flash treatment was only expected to do in the phoretic mites.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> The biggest problem with the method is a fair bit of skill is needed, just exactly how I do it depends on the weather and the strength of the hive. Temperature and humdity has to be taken into account plus the makeup of the hive, so I'll vary the amount of acid, amount of entrance restriction, and time of day I apply the treatment accordingly. This has taken a while to figure out but I now have a "feel" for it & get reasonable results.


I went with another beekeeper in my area today and all we did was pull supers and treat hives for mites. Fume board from top to brood boxes, treat, add dead out boxes to strong hives, seal up, repeat. The beekeeper was the boss, I cracked tops, smoked, fume boarded, cracked honey boxes loose, moved to a thumper. Second guy thumped and stacked. The beekeeper treated and gave directions. Although this formic acid based treatment regiment lasts 2 weeks and is then repeated I completely agree with post #52 after what I experienced today. We pulled 80+ honey boxes and that's just a fraction of the honey boxes left to be removed. You don't get experience like that from a book or from a bee site especially when you're doing it in the exact same area your own bees occupy. Old Timer always gives consistent, decent advice. He reminds me of the guy I helped today.


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