# How much money can a beekeeper make in a year owning 100 hives?



## geoffkb

*How much money?*

I get the feeling from talking to professionals that in a really good year they break even.


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## shawnwri

You can make a lot of money, but you will probably spend all you make and a little more


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## Dan Williamson

shawnwri said:


> You can make a lot of money, but you will probably spend all you make and a little more


As swarm trapper said on here once (or something similar).... There's alot of money in beekeeping. I'm still trying to figure out how to get it back out!


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## ScadsOBees

The money is in the marketing and products. Beekeeping is a type of farming and the weather plays too much role to consistently predict anything.

But if you are average, the average in MI is 80lbs/hive per year. So say you get 8000lbs of honey. If you sell that wholesale you just made $8000 and are now way behind. If you sell at market price you will get say $3/lb and $24,000. If you can convince people you have the best gourmet honey available you can get $5 or $6/lb and a lot higher.

Then there is the wax products (cosmetics) that people might buy. And the flavored honey and the spun honey and the flavored spun honey and the honey sticks and..and..

And then there is the making and selling queen and nucs ....

And pollination....

And it is all a LOT of work to make it all work. I prefer to sit back and enjoy the bees, not do all that work.

There are a lot of possibilities, but most of them need a good business model and marketing plan for them to work. If you are like me and not a business oriented person, then you probably won't make much money.


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## alpha6

Scadsofbees is pretty much right on. It's not a simple task. Like farming there are good years and bad years....bigger doesn't mean you will make more because your costs go up. And depending on where in the country you live will have much to do as to where you can gain the most from the different bee "products" thats scads talked about.

I think everyone will advise you to start small...real small and work up. You will find at what level you can work things to come in at least even. If you are losing constantly...try corn.


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## Gene Weitzel

I have just hit that 100 mark this year. I started about 5 years ago, and I can say that if it were not for the income I receive from removals and swarm capture, I would definately be in the red (I happen to be in a unique position, as I have two sons who are full time students, but are available during most of the busy season to do removals during the week for me while I continue to work a full time day job). As for actual income from 100 hives, I won't have any reliable history for a couple of years so unfortunatley I am of little help in answering your question.


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## sqkcrk

MikeyReej said:


> How much money do beekeepers make a year? How many hives would it take to make 100 grand? My stepfather is a hobbyist beekeeper and I'm thinking about starting up my own business. Any thoughts? Thanks,
> Michael


Michael,

I'm sure that someone can answer your question. There are alot of "experts" out there.

I took in $90,000.00 during the years that I had around 800 colonies and the nectar flows were good and the mites weren't too awfully bad. I also had 80 some thousand dollars in expenses. So you do the math.

My advice to you is, if you want to try to make money at beekeeping you should only buy what you have the money in hand to spend. In other words don't do it on credit. You'll always be in debt.

So grow slowly and reinvest your profit, if you find any. Then you'll be the one to answer this question in the future and you'll be able to tell us how you did it.

Best of luck.


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## riverrat

If you are looking to make money In Beekeeping. You may try the Craps table. The odds are better the work is not as hot or hard. And if you are in the right place they comp you free liquor to help you lose.


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## tarheit

Absolutely develop your own market and skip the sale to packers. You also need to think beyond just honey. Wax, pollen, propolis, pollination, swarm removal, nucs, queen rearing, other value added honey products, etc. Some of these can help even out the income when the honey crop is down.

But there are good years and bad, and it's certainly far from the steady income of a regular job.

-Tim


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## xC0000005

For me, what Tim mentioned is the key to success. Diversification.

My bees make honey only twice in a year, and one of those times takes a lot of moving and gas. So if I stay and wait for the blackberries, afterwards they aren't going to bring in more honey. Well, some but not much. On the other hand, they will continue to bring in pollen, which I'm trapping. Pollen is worth more than honey in my local market, way more. They'll continue to collect propolis and I'll continue to save it. I'll cut out bees when they pay me to do so. I'll sell a frame of brood or nuc as the opportunity permits. I'll even do some (lightweight) pollination for a local farm. The wax can be made into candles. The honey, creamed, flavored and packaged. If I just wait on honey that's one payout once a year. It's the other things that give a trickle of income throughout the other months.

I'm a comitted hobby beekeeper (meaning I should be committed, I guess) so for me there's no downside to a lost sale. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy the transition from season to season, product to product. There's more to the hive than honey.


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## Michael Palmer

MikeyReej said:


> How many hives would it take to make 100 grand? Michael


Over how many years?


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## RayMarler

Where are you going to keep the 100 hives? if kept on your own property, so you don't have to travel to manage the hives, you might just break even sometimes. If you add up the costs of Fuel, Vehicle registration and insurance, Medications and feed for the bees, costs of queen bees/packaged bees for failures if you don't raise your own queens, county registration fees, etc., it seems like a losing propostion to me! So, I choose to keep 8 to 12 hives here at the house just to give me something of interest to play around with.


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## Dr.Wax

With 100 hives I would think you could make about $12,000 on average IF you do most of the work yourself and your equipment is paid for and you are able to sell all of your honey at retail prices.


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## IndianaHoney

Any business that doesn't profit will go under within a few years, if that. There has to be some money in it to stay in business. Most beekeepers like anyone else, just don't want to tell you what they make, because it's no one's business but their's and the IRS.

I have twenty five hives. This year I should pull in more than $2000 just in honey production, not including comb honey, pollination, nucs, queens, and other hive products. My estimated cost for the year, less than $400. In other years, that could be as high as $600.

There is profit to be made, you just have to find it. The problem comes when you lose a large portion of your hives to the winter. 

As others have said, you need more than just honey. Consider honey a product that will pay for your running costs and expansion. The real money is in nucs, queens, pollination, and other hive products. Next year I will spend all that profit on expansion, that is where the money goes, equipment.

If you want to be a commercial beekeeper, learn to cut costs. Raise your own queens. Stop buying packages, and nucs after you have enough hives to fuel your own expansion. Buy used equipment (except for frames). Then learn to sell your own nucs and queens. The only queens that you should be ordering will go into your nucs. If you live in the north, learn to raise them the previous year and bank them for next year. Learn to overwinter nucs, and split like crazy, but not to much that they will not be able to survive.

I've figured out that the key to success is marketing, time management, cutting costs, and being able to replace your loses without to much investment. If you are running a commercial operation with a cost of more than 50% of your cashflow, you need to rethink your business model. Lets brake it down:

100 hives: Not including initial investment of equipment. That is assumed that the beekeeper will reinvest in expansion using the profits.

If you are good at overwintering nucs to replace loses, at least 90% of your hives should produce. Since this is a small operation, I will assume only 10% for pollination survices, obviously, this could be much higher if the beekeeper is good at marketing. And not counting things like comb honey, or retail sales that most beekeepers do. Not including any other hive products, or nuc and queen sales. Assuming the beekeeper raises his/her own queens.

90 x 80 = 7200lbs of honey = $8640 (1.20 per lb wholesale in my area)
10 hives for pollination 40 x 10 = $400
Total = $9040

Costs:
Gas = about $1000 (trying to overestimate this, if the beekeeper is responsible with keeping fuel costs at a min)

Mite treatment = 3.00 per hive, $300

Any other treatments = average of 3.00 per hive, $300. Don't use treatments indiscriminately, this only raises your costs and makes deases more immune to the treatments.

Assuming any misc, and additionial costs at $1000.00 (foundation, replacement frames, replacement boxes, etc) Remember, used equipment.

If you have a larger operation and have to hire employees, add an additional $1000.00 per 100 hives for part time help. Hire high school students. If you have thousands and thousands of hives, you may have to hire a few full time employees. I know a beekeeper that handled 125 hives by himself until he was 86 years old.

Total costs = $3600.00
Total profit = $5440.00

Marketing, cutting costs, time management, and replacing your loses without cutting into your production. Correct me if I missed anything.


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## bleta12

Larry Connor once said (he was quoting someone) "every one that makes $1000 in beekeeping, can make $2000 doing almost anything else".

Gilman


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## xC0000005

IndianaHoney said:


> Marketing, cutting costs, time management, and replacing your loses without cutting into your production. Correct me if I missed anything.


Do not forget your yearly mugging by the IRS. Some of what you pay for is of use. Most is your congressmen and executive branch using you as toilet paper that just happens to pay taxes.


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## MikeyReej

*Thanks*

How realistic would it be for a beekeeper with about 3 years experience to handle 300-400 hives by himself full time. How many hours would this take?


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## Keith Jarrett

bleta12 said:


> Larry Connor once said (he was quoting someone) "every one that makes $1000 in beekeeping, can make $2000 doing almost anything else".
> 
> Gilman


B-12, very well said.


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## alpha6

Mikey,

If you want to keep them healthy and moving to where they will be the most productive, Spring through Fall..all your time. Winter...your break time...extra time to chop wood and get to know your family again.


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## Jim Fischer

> Larry Connor once said (he was quoting someone) "every one that 
> makes $1000 in beekeeping, can make $2000 doing almost anything else".

Hey, now that's funny - Dr. Larry was quoting me with that. 

Money isn't the reason for being a beekeeper. If you want to get "rich", 
get out of all agriculture as quickly as possible.

But one is richer when one has friends, and I have many friends as a 
result of keeping bees. Over and over these friends have proven just
what good friends they are, sometimes in very over-the-top ways.

If you look around and talk to sideliners, the minimum number of hives
that one can expect to "pay bills" with would be somewhere in the
400-500 hive range, assuming a vertically integrated operation where
one sold the bulk of one's honey bottled and labeled, perhaps in private label deals, perhaps under one's own brand. One would do one or two
pollination placements with roughly half the hives every spring, and
one would perhaps get into some value-added work, such as comb
honey, fresh pollen, or wax products.

I did OK, but I set up a line of retail outlets that sold to tourists, and
could thereby command a much higher price per pound. I also had
a low-cost pollination scheme, where transportation was provided
by the growers, and my payment was in the form of a percentage of
the crop. Hard to compare to the typical situation on multiple levels.


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## geoffkb

*How to make a small fortune beekeeping!*

Start off with a large fortune!


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## IndianaHoney

Mikey, 300-400 hives would probably make you about 20,000 a year after expenses, and before tax. You could take care of them working about 25-30 hours a week average through the spring and summer, if you are well orginized, plan ahead, and work efficiently. One man can realisticly take care of 500 hives, if he is good shape. If moving hives, he will occasionally need to hire someone to help, although I have moved full hives without help before.

Keep in mind, you will not get rich from this. The best you can hope for is to make a confortable living. The rich guys are Dadant, Mann Lake, Subee, etc. When you can pay other beekeepers a dollar per pound, then bottle and package 200,000lbs a day, and sell it to the large chain stores, you can get rich. But most of those businesses have been around almost a hundred years.

I also plan to grow into a commercial operation, but I don't plan to make a living until I pass 1000 hives, and have a good market carved out. I'm hoping that most of my income will be from nucs.


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## Keith Jarrett

geoffkb said:


> Start off with a large fortune!


LOL... hee,hee


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## Oldbee

IndianaHoney has "anayize [d] this" pretty completly/succinctly; a well thought out response. But for me, Jim Fischer said it best with, "Money isn't the reason for being a beekeeper".

It has been said a few, or even many times [What Color is Your Parachute] but FIND what you love to do and riches will be bestowed upon you beyond your wildest dreams, lol. I know I am exaggerating a bit but it is true.

"But one is richer when one has friends, and I have many friends a result of keeping bees". - J. Fischer.


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## Swobee

I recall an old Steve Martin routine "Here's how to become a multi-millionaire. First, get your hands on a few million bucks..."

Ours a sideline/hobby at this moment in time and we're in a growing stage so any cash gets reinvested into equipment and livestock. But I have to agree on one thing- avoid packer sales if you can. We sell honey retail at farmer markets, a few spots on retailer's shelves, country produce markets, word of mouth, etc. Not one drop goes to packers (so far). Diversification is the only way to see any reasonable money. Honey in various forms- gift packs, straws, etc. Then those products of the hive other than honey such as wax, lip balm and so on.


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## Dale Hodges

My uncle raised 5 girls and put them through college with 2000 hives. Beekeepers are the worst poor mouthers in the world. Its probably true you can make more money , doing something else.....al thinks being equal. I think anyone whos in the buiness, isn't in the bee buiness to get rich. There are several better reasons to spend a life time with the ladies.


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## MikeyReej

Thanks for all of the advice. It looks like I'm not gonna quit my day job (if I ever figure out what it is). Maybe I'll become a politician so I can wipe my rear with your taxed money. Well it's time for me to go start another hobby. Ciao!


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## high rate of speed

Smart choice,enjoy your lifestyle.


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## BjornBee

MikeyReej said:


> Thanks for all of the advice. It looks like I'm not gonna quit my day job (if I ever figure out what it is). Maybe I'll become a politician so I can wipe my rear with your taxed money. Well it's time for me to go start another hobby. Ciao!


A long time ago, someone told me some advice... "Always surround yourself with people who will lift you up, and not with those who will drag you down. You will never lift them higher than how far they will drag you down".

With that said, I think anyone who comes to a discussion board to ask opinions of such topics, should probably heed the advice and stay clear of spending too much money on such business ventures. Obviously, there are better ways to seek true opportunities and gain experience in such matters. Many always try to invent something new, or create a new way of doing something. And although I believe the market does in fact reward creativity, it also rewards hard work and determination. But it rewards those that are willing to seek out successful operations, and do little more than copy successful plans and management.

We all have heard about how 95% of all small business fail. Many times it's not due to a bad product or bad concept, but just bad management. So I wonder how many of those responding has even had a successful business, let alone a bee business. And wouldn't 95% of the responses just would be assumed would be from those that failed? You may be better off seeking out that 5% on the more brighter side.

So let me sum up what I have read. You want to start a bee business. You post a question on beesource, a day or two later based on the replies posted here, from people you probably know little about, and you have concluded that your search has ended and thats as far as your quest goes. There are people who spend months if not years, formulating a business plan, making contacts, seeking the knowledge of those who may actually be in a position to set you on the right path, acquire some capital, and about a hundred other things that many, many successful people have done to ensure a better chance of success.

Don't take this the wrong way. But with what I have read, I agree that you should move on. Not to another business, because that may require the same fortitude and perseverance in making it work. Whether that be a restaurant, building widgets, opening a flower shop, or anything else. Just get a job. Or take some business classes and see if there is a local "SCORE" chapter in your area. But I hope your path to a truly fulfilling career and business does find you. Just expect to do a little more research than posting on the associated website, and taking the advice of a bunch of people who may be firmly gripped on the 95% side of the isle.

Good Luck.


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## Jack Weston

MikeyReej said:


> How much money do beekeepers make a year? How many hives would it take to make 100 grand? My stepfather is a hobbyist beekeeper and I'm thinking about starting up my own business. Any thoughts? Thanks,
> Michael


You're not going to get a clear answer around here. Most will tell you how tough it is and try to make you think it is a fruitless endeavor. Look into the German beekeeping model, they consistently make money at it.

Jack


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## davidesv

It's depending on how many hours you spend on beekeeping. And it's depends on at which level you practice it. I do that as hobby but I don't despise obviously money. I tried to get back and gain money, but up to now I can't reach it ! I think I need some years from starting activity (3 years ago) for getting back. Seasons by season, money spended are getting decrease.


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## sqkcrk

Jack Weston said:


> You're not going to get a clear answer around here. Most will tell you how tough it is and try to make you think it is a fruitless endeavor. Look into the German beekeeping model, they consistently make money at it.
> 
> Jack


So Jack, how much can you make in a year w/ 100 colonies? Or won't you tell.


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## Dr.Wax

Jack Weston said:


> Look into the German beekeeping model..
> Jack


Link please.


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## mobees

*Money*

There is more easy money with less work selling Bees and Equipment.


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## Hillside

I only have a few hives, but I can estimate a per hive number. I sold last year's honey at my greenhouse this spring. I grossed just about $218 per hive.

Then I need to subtract the cost of production to find what I actually made. That's the tricky part. 

I had about 50% losses, so I had to replace those at $70 per package. So figure $35 per hive.
I bought a few bits of equipment. About $12 per hive.
Some of my existing equipment should be amortized against last year's production. ??
I bought bottles, caps, and labels. Cost varies with size. I'd have to look it up.
There were minimal expenses for electric.
I'm sure there were other costs.

Your mileage may vary.

Next year's crop looks like it might be a bit smaller since the weather has been so bad.


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## kdl

Wow. I have to admit, some of these posts feel kind of like a bucket of cold water. Is anyone out there running profitable beekeeping outfits? I keep hearing about how the world bee population is in decline, tons of products require good quality honey and beeswax, is everyone doing it just for the fun? Someone must be making actual money, somewhere. Anyone? Anyone?


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## Harley Craig

My guess is those who actually make good money with bees don't have the time to talk about it on the internet lol


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## EastSideBuzz

<-15,000 to -25,000>


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## EastSideBuzz

MikeyReej said:


> How realistic would it be for a beekeeper with about 3 years experience to handle 300-400 hives by himself full time. How many hours would this take?


Not very realistic.


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## sqkcrk

kdl said:


> Wow. I have to admit, some of these posts feel kind of like a bucket of cold water. Is anyone out there running profitable beekeeping outfits? I keep hearing about how the world bee population is in decline, tons of products require good quality honey and beeswax, is everyone doing it just for the fun? Someone must be making actual money, somewhere. Anyone? Anyone?


If you ever get around to keeping bees to make money you may find out what I did. It took many years to become profitable. I have had many years of negative income.

I once asked a friend of mine who had been a commercial beekeeper longer than I about making a profit. "What do I need to do to make money at this? When will I see some profit?" He replied, "After the kids are out of the house." It may take years of persistence.

Don't chase the money. Live simply off of what you do. I used to do annual Profit and Loss Statements and couldn't figure out what we lived on. Seemed like everything went into paying for "the Business". Obviously we lived off of something. We had a home and never went w/out food and clothing and other necessities. There just wasn't anything in the Personal Income slot.

It is fun, I guess. I would say that I do what I do for reasons other than "fun". Many times iy isn't "fun". Loading bees on a semi in 95 degrees w/ 95% humidity in a bee suit for instance. But I am doing what I want to do pretty much on my own terms. No "Boss" overlooking what I do. No committee meetings. I like to work outdoors. I'm pretty low maintenance. Simple tastes simple pleasures. I work as much as I want to. Sometimes I think I should work harder, but that is my choice. I take the blame and the praise. Self evaluated.

I hope that wasn't too much a bucket of cold water. A bucket of cold water can put you off or wake you up to the realities. Enjoy.


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## tommyt

So SQKCRK!

If you where starting over again

You would be a ??


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## sqkcrk

I can only imagine doing again what I did this go round, except maybe I would go fulltime beekeeper earlier and maybe insist on my kids going to the bee yard w/ me. My eldest did, but not the younger two. Just the way it happened.

Beekeeping is a means to the life I want to live. I keep bee to live the life I want to live. I don't live to keep bees. I keep bees to live. I hope that came out the way I thought it in my head.

Here's another way of putting it. "I don't keep bees. The bees keep me."


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## sqkcrk

MikeyReej said:


> How much money do beekeepers make a year? How many hives would it take to make 100 grand? My stepfather is a hobbyist beekeeper and I'm thinking about starting up my own business. Any thoughts? Thanks,
> Michael


If your focus is on the money you have lost already. You can make $100,000.00 in income from 600 to 800 hives of bees, depending on whether you only do honey production and sales or that plus some of the other things beekeepers do to make income such as pollination.

But Income is only half of the picture. There are Expenses too. Maybe you meant $100,000.00 cleared?

ROTFLOL Sorry. Cart before the horse, in my opinion.


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## sqkcrk

riverrat said:


> If you are looking to make money In Beekeeping. You may try the Craps table. The odds are better the work is not as hot or hard. And if you are in the right place they comp you free liquor to help you lose.


That I would disagree with. Someone working as hard as they can at beekeeping can make a lot more profit than one would at a Casino. The House always wins. They give you the illusion of winning now and then only to get you to stay in the seat long enough to get all of your money.

I used to work as an Apiary Inspector. A fellow Apiary Inspector told me once that "A poor year of beekeeping is better than a good year of Apiary Inspection." The seasonal job was limited to the 40 hour work week. Whereas the Beekeeping offered almost limitless hours to work towards ones' goals. There is more to the business of beekeeping than keeping bees.

That guy always had the idea that "everything is for sale", everything. If someone wants to pay me for something I have I'll sell it to them. As long as it's at a profit. He says he sold his business three times during his career, and still had the business. Think about it.


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## Rader Sidetrack

> I hope that wasn't too much a bucket of cold water. 

Perhaps it was. This thread is from June of 2008, and the OP only has *3 *posts, all of which are in this thread. 

I wouldn't be surprised if he quickly abandoned the idea of beekeeping and moved onto the *Next Big Thing*. :lookout:


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## kdl

*Making money as a beekeeper*

I think I was really energized because at first glance (and with 0 experience as a Beekeeper), it seemed perfect. There's a huge need, you can be proud to make a difference in a field that, quite literally, is helping ensure the longevity of the species (our species, not just the bee), and honey and beeswax sell for a brazillion dollars an ounce in most markets. I like to do research, especially before I go leaping off financial cliffs. I wouldn't buy a hive or even pretend to raise bees before I had PLENTY of information, as much as I can get my hands on. And while I wouldn't mind being one of the hobby guys, it would be good to know if there's any possibility of making actual money. From what I'm reading so far, it would take a very large up-front investment, and about 10,000 hives. Yikes. 






sqkcrk said:


> If you ever get around to keeping bees to make money you may find out what I did. It took many years to become profitable. I have had many years of negative income.
> 
> I once asked a friend of mine who had been a commercial beekeeper longer than I about making a profit. "What do I need to do to make money at this? When will I see some profit?" He replied, "After the kids are out of the house." It may take years of persistence.
> 
> Don't chase the money. Live simply off of what you do. I used to do annual Profit and Loss Statements and couldn't figure out what we lived on. Seemed like everything went into paying for "the Business". Obviously we lived off of something. We had a home and never went w/out food and clothing and other necessities. There just wasn't anything in the Personal Income slot.
> 
> It is fun, I guess. I would say that I do what I do for reasons other than "fun". Many times iy isn't "fun". Loading bees on a semi in 95 degrees w/ 95% humidity in a bee suit for instance. But I am doing what I want to do pretty much on my own terms. No "Boss" overlooking what I do. No committee meetings. I like to work outdoors. I'm pretty low maintenance. Simple tastes simple pleasures. I work as much as I want to. Sometimes I think I should work harder, but that is my choice. I take the blame and the praise. Self evaluated.
> 
> I hope that wasn't too much a bucket of cold water. A bucket of cold water can put you off or wake you up to the realities. Enjoy.


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## rweakley

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*



kdl said:


> I think I was really energized because at first glance (and with 0 experience as a Beekeeper), it seemed perfect. There's a huge need, you can be proud to make a difference in a field that, quite literally, is helping ensure the longevity of the species (our species, not just the bee), and honey and beeswax sell for a brazillion dollars an ounce in most markets. I like to do research, especially before I go leaping off financial cliffs. I wouldn't buy a hive or even pretend to raise bees before I had PLENTY of information, as much as I can get my hands on. And while I wouldn't mind being one of the hobby guys, it would be good to know if there's any possibility of making actual money. From what I'm reading so far, it would take a very large up-front investment, and about 10,000 hives. Yikes.


Actually my opinion is actually just the reverse. You start out small and learn how to cut corners and what you need and what you don't need. Also learning how to be a beekeeper is not something you learn over night thru a book or a website (even one as good as this one). You need real world hands on experience. Why in the world would you want to start with 100 or 1000 hives when your mistakes are going to multiplied by that number of bees and $$$. I've got a friend (wink wink) that has 4 or 5 fullsize hives and 5-10 nucs. Thru selling nucs and honey he makes between 1500 and 2000$ (most of which is profit because he makes his bees pay for things as he goes along). Now this friend couldn't take this straight to a 100 hive operation and make 30-40k immediately, but I believe he could do it over time. I get so tired of hearing that there's no $$ in beekeeping, the way to make a small fortune is to start with a large fortune. Well yeah if you are going to buy things you don't need, or start so big that you over load your britches or course you're gonna lose money.


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## jmgi

sqkcrk said:


> It is fun, I guess. I would say that I do what I do for reasons other than "fun". Many times iy isn't "fun". Loading bees on a semi in 95 degrees w/ 95% humidity in a bee suit for instance. But I am doing what I want to do pretty much on my own terms. No "Boss" overlooking what I do. No committee meetings. I like to work outdoors. I'm pretty low maintenance. Simple tastes simple pleasures. I work as much as I want to. Sometimes I think I should work harder, but that is my choice. I take the blame and the praise. Self evaluated.


I would say it the very same way Mark. Beekeeping is getting to be very hard work for me the last couple years, due mainly to my age(57) and some health problems, but you know what, I wouldn't want to do anything else even if I could start over again. The money is there to be made if you want to work hard enough at it.


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## Slow Modem

Gene Weitzel said:


> I have just hit that 100 mark this year. I started about 5 years ago, and I can say that if it were not for the income I receive from removals and swarm capture, I would definately be in the red (I happen to be in a unique position, as I have two sons who are full time students, but are available during most of the busy season to do removals during the week for me while I continue to work a full time day job). As for actual income from 100 hives, I won't have any reliable history for a couple of years so unfortunatley I am of little help in answering your question.


That reminds me of a friend that raises cattle. I asked him once how he made any money considering fencing, feed, hay, medicine, time, effort, etc. He said, "Well................you've got to have a good job." I think the same applies to bees.


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## kdl

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*

We won't jump in without a well thought out approach, and I can't imagine trying to start with any sort of large operation. At this point, it would have to be very small, and controlled (to the extent possible). But I have to believe that raising bees is pretty fulfilling, even as a hobby. Bee populations are declining- no bees, no people. Seems like a cause worth supporting. And if it's profitable, all the better.


----------



## Andrew Dewey

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*



kdl said:


> no bees, no people.


This is the sort of idea the popular press would love for us to believe. Do some research into what crops are honey bee/insect pollinated and which rely on wind. If there were 0 honey bees and native pollinators our diet would be extremely expensive and very different, but there will still be food in the grocery stores.

Keep in mind that the big noise regarding lack of bees for pollination is from Almonds. Almonds have become economically important to commercial beekeeping, and as long as the prices for pollination keep rising there will be bee keepers who conclude the money is worth the risks. When there is difficulty attracting enough American beekeepers, I see the borders opening, probably first with Canada, then with Mexico to allow migratory pollination.

I don't mean to imply that nothing should be done to solve beekeeping problems and/or preserve and enhance native pollinator populations. I just don't buy into "the sky is falling" type stories.

How much money can be made from 100 hives? The Vegas casinos were mentioned earlier - I think the big money in beekeeping equates to big risks - only we're not talking vegas rules but rather things like will your bees be turned away at the border for fire ants or will your bees be exposed to something while pollinating. Some risks the individual can control. Others not so much.


----------



## kdl

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*

I'm all about research, for sure. And for us, the bees would likely be part of a larger organization, including an organic farm. But none of that can be done without a ton of information gathering, hands-on experience, a good and proven business model, up-front investment, and the ability to work within the 885,933,445 pages of government regulation that give you the ability (and possibly funding) to pursue that sort of endeavor. So while I imagine we wouldn't fall into the "10,000 hive" (yikes) model I often hear about, there is almost certainly a way to integrate the bee farming into a small scale organic farming site which could be somewhat profitable, at least eventually. After all, if it weren't possible- it wouldn't be happening.


----------



## sqkcrk

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*

How many nucs can you sell? If your colonies are strong enough to make nucs from in Spring you can take in $100.00 to $150.00 per hive by making and selling nucs. Do that annually by pulling 5 frames out of each hive and in 4 yrs you will have all new combs in your hives.

Don't bother buying an extractor. Using all deep supers you will have a lot of interchangeable frames to work w/ and you shouldn't have to feed if you resist the temptation to harvest honey. Leave all the honey on the hives. Doing that, maybe you will get more than one nuc per hive.

If you can sell an average of 200 nucs you should have $20,000.00 in Income. Expenses will be for the hives you started with and the nuc boxes. The frames and foundation needed to rerplace what you take out of the hives. The cost of queens or queen rearing equipment if you decide to raise queens yourself. There would be some other expenses perhaps unforeseen. That's what the Misc. Expense column is for.


----------



## jim lyon

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*



rweakley said:


> Now this friend couldn't take this straight to a 100 hive operation and make 30-40k immediately, but I believe he could do it over time. I get so tired of hearing that there's no $$ in beekeeping, the way to make a small fortune is to start with a large fortune.


So do I. There is lots of money being made in this business right now. Don't believe all the hype. The sky isn't falling. Prices are at record levels. Theses conversations tend to get dominated by a lot of well meaning folks trying hard to get to profitability. Its true the tough part is the investment required to reach a point of profitability which, I believe, is 500+ hives. That's the really tough initial investment. After that the operating cost per hive begins to decrease and your ability to get income increases because you are at a full semi load of bees and can readily move them to where they will make you the most income whether it be almond pollination or honey production. I know of one guy who has around 500+ hives and dosent even own extracting facilities. He just goes from one pollination gig to the next and says it can be a nuisance when they start raising too much honey. He buys some cells from me each spring in east Texas and uses his nucs to plug in the holes in his load of pollination bees. I know its hard to discern this reading stories here on Beesource but there are just so many ways to make money in this business but the folks doing it are rarely the type that choose to put their business plans out here for all to read.


----------



## jmgi

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*

Jim, the most accurate response so far imo. There are so many angles to make money in this business depending on how much time and energy you want to put forth. But as you say the investment up to around 500 hives is the tough part for most people unless the business just falls into your lap, which does happen.


----------



## David LaFerney

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*

It sounds like bee keeping is a lot like many owner opperated businesses. If you get up every day and do what has to be done you can make a living at it. If you have some business expertise you can make a good living at it. If your focus is not on making a profit you probably won't. If it was easy anyone could do it. If it was a get rich quick scheme everyone would do it, and then it wouldn't be anymore. Also it's freaking hard hot work.

Some upsides that I see to beekeeping as a small business: it actually is a skill - a bee keeper can't be replaced by just anyone wanting a job. It isn't easy to automate - you won't be replaced by a machine any time soon. It's getting more difficult because of parasites, chemicals, ect. - that limits competition for those who learn to deal with the challenges. It isn't easily scalable - that keeps you from being forced out of business by a big corporation. Those are probably also some of the same things that make it difficult to get to that 500 hive profit point.


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## GregP

It depends, you won't ever make money just beekeeping. But if you extract, pack, repack, deal with your propolis and your wax, market, and retail there are some opportunities out there. Probably not in the numbers you're talking about, but I've turned fairly decent profits buying unextracted honey and whole sale barrels. I've also heard there is money in queen rearing, but I can't give any personal experience as I mostly deal in honey production.


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## Edymnion

sqkcrk said:


> If you ever get around to keeping bees to make money you may find out what I did. It took many years to become profitable. I have had many years of negative income.


This is true of any business, and its one of the first things they tell you if you're smart enough to actually get professional advice when starting a new business.

Expect and plan for 5 years of losses. On average, any new venture will fail miserably for 5 years before it starts breaking even and turning a profit. If you can't afford to lose the money for those 5 years, you can't afford to start your own business yet.


----------



## sqkcrk

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*



jmgi said:


> Jim, the most accurate response so far imo. There are so many angles to make money in this business depending on how much time and energy you want to put forth. But as you say the investment up to around 500 hives is the tough part for most people unless the business just falls into your lap, which does happen.


Is there no one lending money on Beekeeping Operations these days? There are beekeepers who want to sell. Seems like there aught to be lenders willing to lend. I bought into the 400 hive range via the FSA. Sequestration probably has that avenue closed down. But w/ the almond pollination being such a good source of income I would think that a bank or other lending institution would go along w/ a business plan in which a person bought a tractor trailer load of bees right out of the groves.

I have a banker/loan officer who I met once about 3 years ago. He calls me, comes by, or sends me a card every now and then. I think he is interested in lending me money. I'll be seeing him when it's time to invest in a new truck. I believe there is money out there for those willing to take the leap.


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## Haraga

Edymnion said:


> This is true of any business, and its one of the first things they tell you if you're smart enough to actually get professional advice when starting a new business.
> 
> Expect and plan for 5 years of losses. On average, any new venture will fail miserably for 5 years before it starts breaking even and turning a profit. If you can't afford to lose the money for those 5 years, you can't afford to start your own business yet.


I would agree with that.


----------



## rweakley

Quote Originally Posted by Edymnion View Post 

This is true of any business, and its one of the first things they tell you if you're smart enough to actually get professional advice when starting a new business.

Expect and plan for 5 years of losses. On average, any new venture will fail miserably for 5 years before it starts breaking even and turning a profit. If you can't afford to lose the money for those 5 years, you can't afford to start your own business yet.



Haraga said:


> I would agree with that.


I think the above is true only if you plan on going from near nothing to huge overnight. Otherwise there is no reason you can't be making money by year 2 at the latest. Perhaps the difference comes from people wanting to make beekeeping their only way of making $$ overnight versus people who want to take beekeeping from an enjoyable hobby-hobby that pays- sideline that gives a nice bit of extra $$- to a full time business. Not a bad learning curve going this route either.


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## sqkcrk

I guess I would agree w/ both of you, if that makes any sense. Fortunately I had a job to pay the family bills while I ran 500 to 800 colonies. The job got in the way at times. Bee work got postponed when I had to go away from home on the job.

As I have mentioned in other Threads having some Small Business Education is, in my opinion, as important as Beekeeping knowledge. I didn't have the discipline to establish good bookeeping practices and think I should have.

Build up to Sideliner numbers , 200 or 300 colonies, for a while and see if you think you can take the plunge into the 500 range comfortably. You can always sell off back to sideliner numbers.


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## jmgi

Mark, I know you went to the same school I did and got a degree in beekeeping technology, so you can relate to this: My 21 year old son who goes to college is in partnership with me working the bees, and after doing so for a couple years he told me that I pretty much wasted my time and money going to college to learn about raising bees, that there is nothing that difficult about it, and everything you need to learn to run a bee business can be learned on the job. How do you like that? I don't know, sometimes I wonder if there might be a sliver of truth to what he said.


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## Michael Bush

"I should say that beekeeping is a good business to let alone, for the same amount of brains and energy that will make you a living at beekeeping will make more than a living at almost any other business."--C.C. Miller, A Thousand answers to beekeeping questions 1917 edition Page 18

From one year to the next the difference is huge. One year with a bumper crop I've made 200 pounds per hive. In a bad year I've fed them and harvested nothing. 100 hives being fed 50 pounds of sugar each is 5,000 pounds of sugar (plus depreciation of equipment) as a loss. 100 hives at 200 pounds of honey per hive, is 20,000 pounds of honey (minus depreciation of the equipment). True, most years are somewhere between those extremes, but still erratic. I think it's best to have other sources of income to mitigate the ups and downs. For one think you can sell bees and queens to mitigate it some. But diversifying your income to not be dependent on just the bees having a good year, is wise.


----------



## jmgi

Michael, 100 hives is still hobby beekeeping if you ask me, I think 500 hives is starting to be a full time business. In my area, 50-60 lbs./hive is a poor year, which we had this year, although I did have hives produce much more than that. Even at that kind of production for 500 hives, you still have a crop of 25-30 thousand pounds, sell it all wholesale in buckets or drums and your looking at over $65,000, not profit of course, but assuming all 500 hives are paid for already, that's not too awful bad. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to have to live off that kind of income regularly, so more hives than 500 would be more likely for me to make a living taking into consideration the occasional bad year or two.


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## sqkcrk

jmgi said:


> Mark, I know you went to the same school I did and got a degree in beekeeping technology, so you can relate to this: My 21 year old son who goes to college is in partnership with me working the bees, and after doing so for a couple years he told me that I pretty much wasted my time and money going to college to learn about raising bees, that there is nothing that difficult about it, and everything you need to learn to run a bee business can be learned on the job. How do you like that? I don't know, sometimes I wonder if there might be a sliver of truth to what he said.


My first thought? Ahhh, youth. lol And then I thought of a son of a friend of mine who can't keep a job because he thinks he knows how to run the business better than the guy who owns it or the store manager. Not your son, just what I thought of.

Actually he is probably more right than wrong. I wouldn't trade my two years at OSU/ATI for anything. I had a good time, I learned that what I wanted to do for a livelihood wasn't a fluke, the people I met, Dr. Jim Tew, Bee Classes, going to see Kelley Co and meeting Mr. Kelley,etc., etc.

When I finished and went looking for work nobody wanted me. One guy actually told me that since I went to College I wasn't worth a darn I was spoiled. He didn't say so, but he wanted strong hard working guys who didn't know anything and didn't want to know anything. Someone he could pay little and work hard. He had a guy working for him 20 years who couldn't tell the difference between a queen and a drone. Strong back and weak minds.

What he is wrong about is learning the business side by just doing it. Had I the chance to do it over again I would have gone to B School like my friends in Wmsbg,VA thought I meant when I told them I was going to go to B School in OH. Business School. There is a lot about business I don't know to this day. Getting by though.

I hope your son works hard and learns bees and bee business.


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## Camel413

Ok I have a scenario and would like your options.

Just a bit of background, I am 30 years old, and live in southern IL. Right now I live in town but we plan on moving to a rural location with a few acres of land next fall. Right now I have some friends that live in the country that I can place a few hives on their property to start with.

I am now self employed and earn a decent living working only 15-20 hours a week. Previous to becoming self employed I worked at a factory for 12 years. At this factory I worked 50-60 hours every week. The work was all hard manual labor and was mostly outside in the elements. We worked in 100 degree summers and 10 degree winters with no heat. If it was raining you worked and just got wet. I am throwing this out there to say that I am accustomed to hard outside work.

I left this job to do my current job which is raising feeder insects to sell to the reptile community all around the US. I work 15-20 hours a week and make about twice what I did at my previous job. I have a website (www.kimbrellscoldblood.com) that I sell from and ship all around the country.

I enjoy working and going from 50+ hours a week down to 20 has been a big change for me. I have lots of "down time" and have looked at several different ideas to make some income using this time. Raising bees is very interesting, I mean I already have some insect knowledge  I am not expecting or even wanting to make enough money to consider it as "liveable income" but more as "disposable income" if that makes sense. 

I want to get started in raising bees to become a sideliner to make a profit. Right now I have zero experience in beekeeping but have been reading and researching like crazy. My thinking is that I have an income that fully pays the bills so I can accept that bee keeping for a profit has its ups and downs depending on the weather, crop, disease, ect. There will be years that I break even or loose a bit which isn't a huge deal. Other years a good haul will make a nice profit. I plan to start small to get my feet wet and then increase.

I have read this entire thread with most of the replies basically stating that there is no profit to very little profit in raising bees. I have the work ethic to put in the hard work to do the job. I also have the management and marketing skills needed to make sales of products. With these two qualities I believe that I cant turn a profit that will supplement my main income.

Another big benefit of starting to raise bees is the ability to get pollen. I actually make and grind my own feed for my feeder business. I like to add pollen to the feed as it helps my insects to grow faster and healthier. The down side is to buy pollen on the scale that I need it is rather expensive. If I can harvest my own pollen to use for my other business there is a huge benefit to that.

*Some of my questions are:*

Since I am committed to my main company first for at least 20 hours a week how many hives can I "comfortably" manage with around 15 hours of beekeeping work a week?

I do have a wood shop and I am decent at wood working, I figured I would buy raw lumber and make my own boxes, bottom boards and inner covers to save some money. The frames on the other hand seem like a ton of work so I will probably just end up buying them unassembled from a supplier. Remember what I do have is time so I do not figure my labor charge in as much as someone else would. I understand my time is valuable but being realistic I enjoy working in my shop. I would rather be building bee hive boxes instead of sitting on the couch watching TV. Does this seem realistic to try and save some money?

It seems that diversifying the products that you sell is important to be able to generate a profit. If I was building my own nuc boxes to cut cost in selling nucs each year that would help also?

This is a start, ask any questions and I cant wait to hear your opinions.


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## JWChesnut

-- too much competitive information --


----------



## EastSideBuzz

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*



sqkcrk said:


> Is there no one lending money on Beekeeping Operations these days? There are beekeepers who want to sell. Seems like there aught to be lenders willing to lend. I bought into the 400 hive range via the FSA. Sequestration probably has that avenue closed down. But w/ the almond pollination being such a good source of income I would think that a bank or other lending institution would go along w/ a business plan in which a person bought a tractor trailer load of bees right out of the groves.


Taking out big loans for a bee business is a really bad idea. Start with 10 then 25 then 100, 200 and grow. I find those big jumps and requre much different issues to be solved. With 100 you can still just use a truck and a boom at 200 you need forklift etc. Those are big expenses. Bee keeping is not something to start out in hock for. A couple big mistakes and you are bankrupt. So spend a couple years at each level and learn. The problems only get bigger and more costly.

You don't start out trying to make money right off the bat. It takes a few years to make what you have pay for itself.


----------



## sqkcrk

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*

If it gets you into a position to make income from enough hives so you can be a beekeeper full time or as a sideline while working a paying job, why is that a bad idea?

It worked for me. and I am not as good a business person or as hard a worker as others I have read of on these Forums. I bet Tim Ives could do well w/ many more hives bought w/ loans at the rate of 2%.

Why is that a bad idea? For someone willing to do whatever it takes?


----------



## Camel413

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*

I dont plan on taking out any loans but only spending what I can comfortably afford to loose. I would most likely reinvest any profits back into growing the business until it reached the point I wanted.

My main concern is how many hives I can comfortably take care of with 15 hours a week?


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## sqkcrk

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*

What two days do you have available? The same two each week? Or can you choose?


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## franktrujillo

the problem is that everyone is selling there honey whole sale I can understand if your bees are medicated and feed to charge that amount.I charge 1.00 an ounce that's pure honey.no medicated bees or artificial feeding I have no problem selling it either give a small free jar 5 oz tell them try my honey then other honey they been buying and bet they spit it out.then next thing there back buying more honey one more satisfied customer and not questioning my price. quality honey that's my motto.


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## Camel413

Mondays are out, that is my busy shipping day, it takes all day to get my orders out. I ship Tuesday and Wednesday so would only be able to put a few hours in those days. Thursday and Friday is generally my slower days where I do some catch up work so those days I have the most hours I can devote to other things.


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## sqkcrk

I guess you will just have to find out yourself.


----------



## EastSideBuzz

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*



Camel413 said:


> My main concern is how many hives I can comfortably take care of with 15 hours a week?


Start with 2 or 5 and see how many hours it takes you. Different people spend different amounts of time to do the same things. When you get better at it would take you less time do it.

I run 200 hives and spend 3 hours a day every day (365) and then at least 10 on a weekend. If I miss a day I have to make it up. I have forklifts and trucks so I can move them easily and a wife that is a saint for putting up with me. I spent 50k+ this year on stuff. Might break even this year, not sure yet.


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## Bees everywehere

I am new, I hope to make some money

Chris


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## Randy south MS

It all boils down to one answer Camel413, its farming and a farmer has good years and bad years and will always tell you he is broke....lol. A farmer is at mother natures mercy, as is a beekeeper, I was raised on the farm and have it in my blood and will always farm one way or another.
Good luck on your venture


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## EastSideBuzz

Bees everywehere said:


> I am new, I hope to make some money


Keep your day job and make some good investments. Bee's are not a good investment. You have to love them as a way of life and money is secondary.


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## sqkcrk

MikeyReej said:


> How much money do beekeepers make a year? How many hives would it take to make 100 grand? My stepfather is a hobbyist beekeeper and I'm thinking about starting up my own business. Any thoughts? Thanks,
> Michael


Does anyone know what has happened w/ Mikey since starting this Thread? Fallen off the Earth? Changed his mind? Went somewhere else for advice?


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## Dominic

IndianaHoney said:


> Mikey, 300-400 hives would probably make you about 20,000 a year after expenses, and before tax. You could take care of them working about 25-30 hours a week average through the spring and summer, if you are well orginized, plan ahead, and work efficiently. One man can realisticly take care of 500 hives, if he is good shape. If moving hives, he will occasionally need to hire someone to help, although I have moved full hives without help before.
> 
> Keep in mind, you will not get rich from this. The best you can hope for is to make a confortable living. The rich guys are Dadant, Mann Lake, Subee, etc. When you can pay other beekeepers a dollar per pound, then bottle and package 200,000lbs a day, and sell it to the large chain stores, you can get rich. But most of those businesses have been around almost a hundred years.
> 
> I also plan to grow into a commercial operation, but I don't plan to make a living until I pass 1000 hives, and have a good market carved out. I'm hoping that most of my income will be from nucs.


Mann Lake's founding: 1983

Not all big guys have been around for a hundred years. You just need a good business plan, a lot of determination, and some time to get it all into motion. As with any business, though, if you want to make money, you need to be able to plan ahead of time, to be able to predict revenues and costs to properly evaluate what's worth your time, and what equipment is worth its costs. People need to know about your product, like your product, and be willing to pay the price you want for your product.


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## OlofL

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*



EastSideBuzz said:


> ...I run 200 hives and spend 3 hours a day every day (365) and then at least 10 on a weekend...


That sums up to 8 hours/hive and year and that is about the same as my figures. The main problem for me is that most of these hours need to be done during April-September.


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## Camel413

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*

8 hours per hive per year works out to about .15 hours per hive per week. So with those numbers I could manage 100 hives, all theoretical though. I understand that it is merely a guess as too many factors come into play but that does answer my question. As a new person I didnt know if it was going to be 10, 25, 300, ect. I just wanted a very rough ball park figure.

As for the fact that bee keeping is Ag related and very up and down is ok with me. I would not be using any profits to count as my income. Any profits would go back into the business or just be spent on "wants" in life not needs. My main business pays for all our needs, I am just looking for a hobby that I would enjoy to consume some extra hours during the week.


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## sqkcrk

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*

Then get two and enjoy them. Then, when you get the urge, play around w/ the different aspects of bees and beekeeping. Enjoy you hobby.


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## allan

sqkcrk said:


> Does anyone know what has happened w/ Mikey since starting this Thread? Fallen off the Earth? Changed his mind? Went somewhere else for advice?


probably went somewhere else for advice


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## Edymnion

allan said:


> probably went somewhere else for advice


Yeah, probably didn't like hearing "You're more likely to lose money".

I mean, you'll notice that even small places that commercially sell honey also sell wax, nucs, packages, hive gear, and various equipment as well, because they sure as heck can't stay in the black off of just the honey.


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## jim lyon

Edymnion said:


> Yeah, probably didn't like hearing "You're more likely to lose money".
> 
> I mean, you'll notice that even small places that commercially sell honey also sell wax, nucs, packages, hive gear, and various equipment as well, because they sure as heck can't stay in the black off of just the honey.


I don't mean this in a derogatory way but that is, quite simply, incorrect. You "notice" the commercial operations that sell these other products (with the exception of beeswax which is just a factor of honey production) because they are advertising. What is difficult to gauge is the much larger percentage of commercials who may only be known to a few of the large honey packers that they deal directly with. Honey is currently selling at historically high prices, and yes it's not only possible to "stay in the black" with honey and wax sales alone, it's possible to make a good living at it. The distinction, as I pointed out much earlier in this thread is to reach the point of viability which is probably somewhere in the 500 hive range.


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## Edymnion

Yes, but he wasn't talking about the 500 hive range, and I personally would not consider 500 hives to be a small operation.

Its entirely possible to stay in the black with just the honey when you are capable of producing it by the 55 gallon drum, but again I wouldn't call any place capable of that a small time operation. When you're measuring in tens of hives and not hundreds of hives, I don't think you're going to be able to get by on just selling the honey.


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## jim lyon

Edymnion said:


> Yes, but he wasn't talking about the 500 hive range, and I personally would not consider 500 hives to be a small operation.
> 
> Its entirely possible to stay in the black with just the honey when you are capable of producing it by the 55 gallon drum, but again I wouldn't call any place capable of that a small time operation. When you're measuring in tens of hives and not hundreds of hives, I don't think you're going to be able to get by on just selling the honey.


Agreed. I'm not trying to split hairs here but I think that is somewhat at variance with your statement that "even small places that commercially sell honey also sell........because they sure as heck can't stay in the black off of just the honey". 
A little historical perspective is in order here I believe. In 2005 I was bid .85 a lb. for white honey. Last year I sold a large part of our crop for 2.25 and that is far less than what a creative producer can get marketing his honey as an exclusive locally produced product. I just don't want to leave folks just learning this stuff with the impression that honey production is a losing proposition.


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## RCorl

An old beekeeper had just won the $1 million lottery. The local newspaper man asked him what he was going to do now that he won all that money. His response "I'll just keep raising bees till the money is gone".


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## Davidnewbeeboxbuilder

How far your willing to go and your location cuts into profitability. Pollinating late honey and bees are main sources of income. In my area apple pollinating is only agriculture and place is heavy. clear cut so I'm gonna spread my hives to make a little honey.three suppers capped is great and one of sourwood is as good as I see. I wish there was more nectar crops growinglike canola but from July til Sept. Feeding is involved. Local honey is as16 a quart so the potential is there on a good year to make 250 a hive. But if you truck the where they need pollinating way more profit and feed all the time to get more splits.


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## BeeDeane

Thanks for the question and responses! This has been a most sobering/useful thread!


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## hagane

no offense to all you fine gentlemen but I have to raise the objection that I think most people who answer this are mixing their personal expenses and personal spending with their beekeeping income. Every job I've investigated everyone will always say they are poor, or the work is too hard, that the competition is almost putting them under, or that only an expert can do their field. I have to really question if people are really being honest and I can't really blame them. We live in a culture that gives you a medal if you lay people off to give the survivors a higher income...

So what do you say to that?


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## beepro

I can only say then the ones who got laid off go into beekeeping. Should I say go into beekeeping before
the lay off. Beekeeping will keep their minds sharp until the next job come again. I think sideliner is the proper term here.
Then they are forever be employed. Making this transition is not easy when trying to
balance everything out in life.


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## sqkcrk

hagane said:


> So what do you say to that?


I say, I don't know who you have been talking to. If one works at beekeeping it is hard work. It's physical labor. What most White Americans aren't used to doing. And it's Farming at its most basic. So, of course one is not likely to be well of from doing it. But there is more to life than being well off. Were you to really look at my "books", such as they are, you would find it hard to distinguish between personal and business. 

Many a year our business plans, when we did them, looked as though we didn't make any real income and had no living expenses. But obviously we ate and paid all of the other non-business expenses. Somehow. The fact that they didn't appear wasn't by design or to avoid anyone or anything. Just how it was.

So it's not simply a matter of being honest or not. The standard of living of beekeepers, from what I have seen, and I mean full time beekeepers, is not a high standard of living. Better than many, but not wealthy by most people's standards.

And I have never heard that anyone ever got a medal for laying people off so the remaining employees could get paid better. That's an interesting/strange idea. Do people do that? I don't have any employees. So I wouldn't know.


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## gnor

I know one way to make a small fortune in beekeeping. Start with a large one.


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## beepro

Yeah, start bigger without learning the basics of beekeeping. Go ahead to take out
your 60k to buy a local bee operation and see what will happen next. Cannot imagine
when a bee disease hit or when they're robbing each other during a dearth.


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## b1kfd

I just read through this entire thread. It was interesting, to say the least. If I had stopped reading after the first couple of pages, I would be out trying to sell my 7 beehives tomorrow, lest I go bankrupt. The work schedule at my full-time job (firefighter) is 24hrs on 48hrs off, so I have time to run a small business on my off days. Right now I am the sole owner/operator of a lawn service. I make enough to pay for my family's recreational activities (vacations, amusement parks, going out to movies etc) I plan to slow down on the grass cutting, and try to take up some of the slack with keeping bees. I should be able to retail most of the honey, and in the future maybe raise queens or nucs. My youngest daughter is helping me with the bees, and with cutting grass. She would much rather work with a smoker and hive tool than run a weedeater... Anyway, if that doesn't work out, at least I'll have "free" honey for my family to eat, and to give my friends and relatives for Christmas. One thing I have learned: I'm glad I didn't try to jump into beekeeping with both feet. The learning curve is steep, and getting steeper.


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## frankthomas

MicketReej bee keeping is hard work. It's hot and sweaty and sticky. It'll give you a bad back over the years. It takes a fair amount of muscle to move supers around. It's heartbreaking when you lose colonies that you have worked so hard to keep healthy. And you will lose colonies. And as you can see from this thread, it's far from a get rich quick business and there are no guarantees.

But for me it gets me outside and in touch with nature and interacting with it. I feel a part of something much much bigger than me. I've always been attracted to farming and the honest hard work that it requires. But I am a city boy and this is my way to experience a slice of it. Selling honey to appreciative regular customers is more rewarding then the $8 a 1 lb jar I easily get. When someone finds out I keep bees and their eyes get big with curiosity, I know I am in for an enjoyable conversation. 

There are guys here who can make a living at it. But the vast majority of us do it because we love it. Except for the days it sucks.


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## rolftonbees

I take mine to the gardeners I know and neighborhood farmers market and trade it for produce. I think I am doing much better than 3 dollars per pound.

People who are about to take their unsold and surplus produce back home, tend to be generous in trading. I use recycled, sterilized jars for trading.


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## Pick

Want to make a million dollars keeping bees? First, get $2 million.......


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## meeves

what there not telling you how much they paid in mortgage payments on there house where there co. is at witch becomes a tax wright off and a savings acct


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## sqkcrk

Mortgage payments are not deductible. Where did you get that idea from, meeves?


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## Michael Bush

>what there not telling you how much they paid in mortgage payments on there house where there co. is at witch becomes a tax wright off and a savings acct

When someone does one eggcorn or oronym or malpropism in a sentence I often think it's accidental mispelling. When they three in one sentence I have to wonder if it's on purpose (porpoise?).

they're
which
right


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## Ozone

Ha! Ha!

Financial advice from someone who can't spell!

(Howdy Mr. Bush! )


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## sqkcrk

I hope the two of you don't get the ration I get when I point out spelling mistakes.


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## Michael Bush

>I hope the two of you don't get the ration I get when I point out spelling mistakes.

I could have resisted one per sentence... but three in one sentence? (well, maybe not a proper sentence, but we didn't go into that)


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## mgolden

Missed "their" and tax ???"write" off


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## aunt betty

Wow, this is a fun question.
How much would I make if I had 100 hives?


Uh, break it down. Suppose you had one hive and it died after you spent $376.39 on it.
Multiply that times 100. 

It's not that simple obviously. Bee math does not work. Bee plans change constantly as well so make up a real good plan. 

In reality I had 22 colonies a few days ago, United three that were puny weaklings and now I got 20. How much did I make in a year? I don't want to talk about that and if I multiplied it times 5 I still would not want to talk about it.


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## rolftonbees

Late to this thread but cannot resist:

As little as he or she desires or even less than that.


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## Michael Bush

witch: noun, A woman claiming or popularly believed to possess magical powers and practice sorcery.
which: pronoun, What particular one or ones: Which of these is yours?
wich: noun, A bundle of thread. Alternative spelling of wick.

they're: Contraction of "they are."
there: adverb, At or in that place: sit over there.
their: adjective, Used as a modifier before a noun: their accomplishments; their home town.

wright: noun, One that constructs or repairs something. Often used in combination: a playwright; a shipwright.
write: verb-transitive, To form (letters, words, or symbols) on a surface such as paper with an instrument such as a pen. Or in this case "write-off" as in "deducting it from your income."
right: adjective, Conforming with or conformable to justice, law, or morality: do the right thing and confess.
rite: noun, The prescribed or customary form for conducting a religious or other solemn ceremony: the rite of baptism.

But actually, to the point of the comment, you can take off a PORTION of your mortgage and utility bills as a "home office expense" IF you meet the criteria (you actually have a home office and it's used only for an office for that business) and you don't mind getting dinged by the IRS when you sell the place. But it's based on the percent of the square footage of the house that is the office. You won't get away with calling the entire house the office...


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## kilocharlie

It has been discussed here on Beesource before, and always seems to get a lot of responses, some reasonable, some questionable at best.

The best advice is usually to build slowly and debt-free. Keep the full-time job. Let the bees buy the flatbed truck for the business. A full-time bee job usually requires 700 to 1,000 hives per person, and you'll need some free help during the busy season.

The Marketing plan is of extreme importance. Nothing happens until somebody sells something at a profit. Conditions change. Right now, nucleus sales are good. Back when the price supports were going, selling honey to the government was the hot thing. If you have a truck and a forklift, can build them up in a good wintering location and you are within striking distance, pollination contracts can be good. If you are a certain size, but not big enough to go to the almonds, piggy-backing a larger outfit can put a nice check in your wallet. If you are better at woodwork than at beekeeping, sell boxes, frames, tops, SBB's, Winter bottom boards, nuclues boxes, etc. while learning more about beekeeping. If you already own land with almonds, brokering bees can be quite lucrative, but you'd better be pretty good at both.

The entrepreneurial mind has to see the opportunity for the positive cashflow, know it's costs, maximize it, and minimize or eliminate the negative cashflow activities, also know the time window for that opportunity, when it's closed, and when it's marginal. If math is easy for you, and if you already know bookkeeping, you'll have a chance. Without math and bookkeeping, your only chance is dumb luck, which does not happen every year in beekeeping.

Take business classes at the local community college. Going in to business with the trained sense for "Where's the cost? Where's cashflow?" will make it a lot easier to know the answer to your original question before you start, possibly avoiding an expensive lesson in business failure.

Just to start figuring, 100 colonies means you already have a truck and a trailer, perhaps 400 boxes, 4,000 frames, 4,000 plastic foundation inserts, 25 pallets, 100 commercial tops, 100 each of more than one type of feeder (suppose 2-gallon Mann Lake frame feeders and bucket feeders), 100 queen introduction cages, 100 robbing screens, 25 pollen traps, at least 40 nucleus boxes (probably more like 60, and that means 400 to 600 more frames), and a small honey room with a sideline extraction setup. Ongoing costs include queens, syrup feed and pollen substitute feed, medications, a % of replacement equipment, travel expenses (you need to know how far it is cheaper to move bees than to feed them at each price of fuel.) I'd suggest a small woodshop if you're already a carpenter. If you don't already raise queens, you'll have to start.

One caveat - 100 hives is not enough for a stand-alone business. Think 900 colonies plus nucleus colonies. This number (100) is for calculation purposes only. Total number of colonies will depend on your exact setup and how many hives you can reasonably work. My mentor chooses to run fewer hives and take better care of them, and he does well that way, but he's been at the game over 40 years.

Figure out your costs. Forecast your gross income (see the SBA's S.C.O.R.E. counselors for help). Subtract out your profit. Figure the financing cost, and calculate the payoff time. I'd suggest you do not expect consistent amounts each year - that would be rather disastrous. If you can apprentice with a commercial outfit, you'll avoid a lot of mistakes.

Strongly consider working for a commercial for 4 to 7 years, and buying out the existing business where you already know the contracts, locations, the quirks of the forklift, how much labor is in the honey room, where the nectar flows are in the dry years. You'll enjoy automatic credibility with the banks if the business has years of established profitability that you will not enjoy starting up alone. Best of all, you'll have a good idea how to think and do things production-style at commercial beekeeping scale, and how the calendar works.

Oh, and marry a beekeeper wife with a business degree - debutantes won't cut it -a divorce will ruin you. 

Face it, some years are just loser years. If you are diversified and/or have reserves, you'll survive. Make your luck.


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## marshmasterpat

Kilo - I do appreciate advice like that, well laid out and someone could start planning from the information you provided.


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## Ross

If every hive was broken down into 4 nucs and sold, you would have $40,000-50,000 at $100 to $125 per nuc. That's probably the easiest way to make money on them.


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## David LaFerney

This year my overwintered hives - counted as of April 1 - each (on average) produced...

.83 8 frame mediums which I sold as nucs/starter colonies
.32 swarms (estimated)
12.9 quarts of honey
.5 increase hives
12 new frames of comb - including the ones sold in nucs.

Inputs
1 purchased queen
15 - 20 lbs sugar ( I should keep better records)
1 round of apiguard
1 dose of OA
12 medium frames with foundation

Woodenware for increase hives

You can do the math, I haven't been at it that long but these numbers are pretty average for me and my bees so far.


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## clyderoad

Ross said:


> If every hive was broken down into 4 nucs and sold, you would have $40,000-50,000 at $100 to $125 per nuc. That's probably the easiest way to make money on them.


I'm not sure this is the "easiest way" to make money on them for some locations.
wouldn't that depend on the particular market, the weather(location), queen source?
expenses just for replacement frames & queens (if they need to be bought) could eat up 20% of that revenue.
Buyers for 400 nucs may be diffucult to find in some areas.

Honey production on a 100 hives w/ retail honey sales will give a run at those figures and probably beat them in
certain locations close to large metro centers.


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## waynesgarden

kilocharlie said:


> ....One caveat - 100 hives is not enough for a stand-alone business. ....


Good point. It's not enough to send me back to college to study business and certainly nowhere near enough to make me consider getting married again.

Wayne


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## waynesgarden

And since we've incorporated spelling corrections into this ancient and resurrected thread, may I ask when did "sale" become a verb? And for that matter, when did "loose" become a verb? (Apologies to the original poster, who seems to have abandoned us 8 years ago.)

I see so many statements like "I sale my honey in quart jars" that it seems like it's becoming an accepted form of the word. Whatever happened to "sell?" Sell is the verb, sale is the noun, or at least it was when I was in school.

Same with "loose." As in: "I tried to sale my honey in quart jars but I would loose a dollar or two compared to 1 lb jars." Loose was what your lids were when all the honey leaked out. "Lose" was what you did when you didn't win. 

See? When you only have 100 hives, you don't have enough work to do and your mind wanders to other matters.

Wayne


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## biggraham610

:lpf: 

That's pretty good Wayne. Kicking around the under-educated. I often wondered the same, but just let it slide. Please don't hit me too hard for signing my post with only an initial. G

:lpf:


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## waynesgarden

biggraham610 said:


> :lpf:
> 
> Please don't hit me too hard for signing my post with only an initial. G
> 
> 
> 
> :lpf:


Only an initial, but it's a Big G.

Wayne


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## crocodilu911

*Re: Thanks*



MikeyReej said:


> How realistic would it be for a beekeeper with about 3 years experience to handle 300-400 hives by himself full time. How many hours would this take?


i have not read the whole 25 pages on this post, but this I can say.

for 100 hives, you need 1 weekend to do an inspection, by yourself. you do one of those every 2 weeks. in the mean time if you make 80lb of honey /hive average, you are doing great. usually it's less, since out of 100 you will have bad hives. you have to decide what to do with the nucs and swarms. so you can't say I have 100 hives and that's it. these are not cattle. you can't fix them, to where they don't multiply, so with 100 hives, you can count a natural multiplication of at least 80-140 more hives /year. if you sell them, meaning you will do artificial nucs, and find buyers for them, even after buying the 5 frames and the nuc box, you could still make a $50 profit, selling from home  so $5k there, $8k with honey, pollen and propolis can be sold, plus if you make queens, you can sell them. it all depends how much work you are willing to put in and how far you want to go. and by that I mean how much money you need to live. I know my wife won't be happy with $7/h so I have to get better than that. 

300-400 hives, takes 3 to4 times more time to work than the 100 hives, but the return is higher. thinking that only in almond pollination , if you send there 400 hives, you can come home with a $40k profit after 45 days of orchard, I think that can be good. also you can make honey with them, make nucs for sale after that. keep in mind, you will need honey extractor, forklift, flat bed truck, storage room, shop to work out of. all of that costs money, so yeah, you can make $100k with 400 hives, but you might spend half of that on cost, if you are lucky. as a full time, I am thinking 400-600 hives will pay my bills, and If I get more than that then I might be able to save some money, or pay off the debt I made getting there sooner. I think , to have a decent life, you need anywhere from 1000-1500 hives, and then you will have to hire a $10/h guy to help you out. 

I made $900 selling honey from 15 hives this year. maybe next year, when I will have 30 production hives, I might make double that  it's not much, but it will pay for that new extractor I am looking to buy.


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## hagane

There are a lot of problems with calculating in Beekeeping I've noticed.

For starters, beekeepers love their bees so a lot of their expenses can have personal decisions mixed into business decisions and that could lower things a bit; For example, you didn't have to incur that extra cost to have a fancy paint color on every hive or you bout some special thing that you already had because you were addicted to bees just kidding, and also you have to separate expenses to Grow, from what their expenses would be if they weren't growing and just staying the same. This is why I think myself and others get a bit confused I think. I don't think it's fair to say you didn't make anything but you obviously invested a lot in infrastructure to grow from 100 colonies to 200 colonies for example, or whatever else it is. 

I've noticed this in corporations and accounting too. They say they didn't make any money but in actuality they knew their business so well that a month before they were going to really have real income figures they hurriedly planned extra 'genuine' expenses from the income money to make it less and fuel growth, open new stores etc. Like McDonalds is whining right now they aren't making any money but go there during rush hour and a lot of times during the day and their drive through lines are at least five times longer than any other fast food place in my town. Yet they say they aren't making anything? And they are still opening new stores even though they say they are not making anything. In normal businesses people say that and every industry has this tall tales average where they say they aren't making anything, and I have this friend that says he's poor and not making anything but he's driving a BMW ...So there must be some kind of math average I can refigure this on maybe to think OK if 10 people tell me they aren't making anything at this maybe only 8 of them really aren't?

The other thing too that I'm not so sure about is, when people talk about honey produced per hive I don't know if they are saying that figure before or after they've accounted for how much to leave for the bees... 

The other thing is lets say someone isn't making anything, but they are breaking even, and they are paying for their house and land that's different from someone who is on the street saying they are broke and not even have a place to live. Maybe we can rephrase this just a bit to say, yeah I'm not getting rich but I'm able to live in a house and I'm paying for land my side opportunities are trying to build up still...compared to saying, I'm so poor I put up a sign at the free way exit so I can buy stuff to make peanut butter sandwiches for all my meals.

I think a lot of people are just trained to say they aren't making anything in MOST industries partly because of justified fear that other people will take their jobs ( and yes people do steal and take other peoples jobs ) so i can't blame them.


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## kilocharlie

waynesgarden said:


> Good point. It's not enough to send me back to college to study business and certainly nowhere near enough to make me consider getting married again.
> 
> Wayne


Very true, but a decent girl with a one-ton dually flatbed, a semi with a forklift, a 100 acre ranch, a woodshop, an MBA degree from HBS, who takes turns cooking with me, who always wants me to "check her for ticks", and whose dying father owns a collection of restored classic cars and a yacht does make a case. But a girl that sensible would probably want to get into banking, law, or government instead of marrying my aging "assets" and start a bee business / worm farm / almond and-or avocado orchard / orchard management business.

Always embarrassing when we get caught posting to an ancient, resurrected thread


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## clyderoad

*Re: Thanks*



crocodilu911 said:


> but this I can say.
> 
> for 100 hives, you need 1 weekend to do an inspection, by yourself. you do one of those every 2 weeks. in the mean time if you make 80lb of honey /hive average
> 300-400 hives, takes 3 to4 times more time to work than the 100 hives,
> I am thinking 400-600 hives will pay my bills, you need anywhere from 1000-1500 hives, and then you will have to hire a $10/h guy to help you out.
> 
> I made $900 selling honey from 15 hives this year. maybe next year, when I will have 30 production hives, I might make double that  it's not much, but it will pay for that new extractor I am looking to buy.


FWIW it is a long stretch to extrapolate what time is necessary to keep 100 hives, 400 hives, 1000 hives, 1500 hives and what income (and expenses) can be expected from those hives from your experience with 15 hives and honey sales of $900.
Try it, you'll see what I mean.


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## Beekeeper1234

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*



jim lyon said:


> So do I. There is lots of money being made in this business right now. Don't believe all the hype. The sky isn't falling. Prices are at record levels. Theses conversations tend to get dominated by a lot of well meaning folks trying hard to get to profitability. Its true the tough part is the investment required to reach a point of profitability which, I believe, is 500+ hives. That's the really tough initial investment. After that the operating cost per hive begins to decrease and your ability to get income increases because you are at a full semi load of bees and can readily move them to where they will make you the most income whether it be almond pollination or honey production. I know of one guy who has around 500+ hives and dosent even own extracting facilities. He just goes from one pollination gig to the next and says it can be a nuisance when they start raising too much honey.  He buys some cells from me each spring in east Texas and uses his nucs to plug in the holes in his load of pollination bees. I know its hard to discern this reading stories here on Beesource but there are just so many ways to make money in this business but the folks doing it are rarely the type that choose to put their business plans out here for all to read.


That was the only post worth reading for me. I don't keep bees for making money. But I know people who do it for a living.


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## NeilV

waynesgarden said:


> It's not enough to send me back to college to study business and certainly nowhere near enough to make me consider getting married again.
> 
> Wayne


I think if I got 100 hives before long I'd be looking for a new wife. And a new place to live.


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## tjbj

I am so new to beekeeping that my first nucs won't even be ready to bring home until May. My whole mindset, about anything you do, is if you're in it just for the money, you'll be sorely disappointed and likely to give up before you even make any headway. If you're passionate about what you do, if your heart is in it, then any money you might make from it will just be icing on the cake. If you can diversify, then you're already ahead of the game. For instance, I'm a homemaker and an artist, and sometimes I substitute teach during the school year. I make a little money but if we depended on those things alone, we'd starve to death!  My husband worked offshore for 10 years, but he also has over 30 years in building furniture and has some serious skills as a carpenter and a builder/fixer of anything. It was a sad day when the oilfields began laying off, BUT - - as the saying goes, when God closes one door, He opens a window. So we've been doing a lot of different things together to keep our heads above water, (a lot of treading water, for sure!) and we've been extremely blessed in that regard. Lots of the things we do at different times of the year. Beekeeping for us is just another ingredient for the recipe. Add to beekeeping my herb gardening, two things that go together very well. The possibilities are endless, but it takes time, one day at a time, one year at a time, and to expect lots of learning curves in the process. Husband is building our hives, btw, which is little to almost no expense at all. Then, its the effect being around the bees have on me - - it is one of the most calming activities I have ever encountered. I don't know why, but I'm totally relaxed around those wonderful little creatures.


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## David LaFerney

Ozone said:


> Ha! Ha!
> 
> Financial advice from someone who can't spell!
> 
> (Howdy Mr. Bush! )


One of the wealthiest men I have ever known personally had an 8th-grade education, drove a 10-year-old Buick, and wore plain work clothes most of the time. One day he closed a deal at a local bank which involved a check for several million dollars. Afterward one of the junior bankers walked up and offered his hand saying something to the effect of "I would like to shake the hand of a millionaire Mr ######." To which he replied "I've been a millionaire for a long time son, but I'll shake your hand anyway."

Education and intelligence are not the same thing. I've known engineers who absolutely could not spell - if they were interested in that maybe they would have been English majors.

You know, the people on the internet who I love the most are the ones that point out spelling and grammar mistakes.


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## David LaFerney

As a hobbyist, *I believe* that you can make $2-300 per hive of healthy overwintered bees per year. Not counting long term investments like woodenware or extraction equipment. Not much all considered, but times 10 and it's a Carribean cruise for 2. Or a nice contribution to the retirement or college fund. Times 40 and it's going to be harder to confine to "spare time" if you have a 9-5. You can also *lose* money year after year. 

Something that every beginner should know - beekeeping is pretty hard work when it's more than just a Saturday afternoon hobby.


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## crocodilu911

*Re: Thanks*



clyderoad said:


> FWIW it is a long stretch to extrapolate what time is necessary to keep 100 hives, 400 hives, 1000 hives, 1500 hives and what income (and expenses) can be expected from those hives from your experience with 15 hives and honey sales of $900.
> Try it, you'll see what I mean.


I am 4th generation beekeeper. I used to own a few thousand and i ran as foreman farms up to 15000 hives. I could give you facts about how much time you need


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## Dejashel

I have heard a lot of old timers say. "I used to have a lot of money, now I keep bees".


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## clyderoad

*Re: Thanks*



crocodilu911 said:


> I am 4th generation beekeeper. I used to own a few thousand and i ran as foreman farms up to 15000 hives. I could give you facts about how much time you need


well then 600-1000 hives should be a walk in the park for you to work.

why don't you have a few thousand anymore? or run foreman for 15000 hive operations?


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## BigBlackBirds

Dejashel said:


> I have heard a lot of old timers say. "I used to have a lot of money, now I keep bees".


i think a better title for the thread is "how much money is it gonna to cost me to keep these things every year"


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## Moon

deleted


----------



## PepperBeeMan

I'm new to beekeeping, this is my 2nd year. I have 1 hive. But, I am NOT new to marketing & small business. MY entire family has survived on one small biz or another. 

I believe the main problem and possibly the reason for a lack of profit is that beeks treat their bees like family and not employees...or even further...like a bug.

If you look at the issue pragmatically and make decisions based on profit and loss outcomes, there seems to be quite a bit of money to be made here. It took me a darn month to find a nuc in April. I had to drive 8 hours round trip to get it. SOLD OUT SOLD OUT SOLD OUT is all I saw. When a business minded person sees "sold out," they should be thinking, the price is set too low. 

As soon as I tell someone that I got a hive, everyone within earshot asks for honey. They ask in the Fall. They ask in the Spring. They ask when they have allergies. They ask ask ask when this honey is gonna be available for sale. I see beeks in country stores selling quarts of honey for $15 with "Honey Man" and a phone number written on it. All I can think is maybe I should just buy all his quart jars, put a nice hipster label on it, have my wife tie a 5 cent ribbon with a fake flower for 10 cents, and charge $40. 

I paid $140 for my Russians. 1 nuc in a cardboard box. He sold me worn out frames to boot! It's doing well. I would have paid $220. He lost $80 in that transaction. Now, I had to drive 8 hours round trip...how much do you think I would have paid if I could have bought 10 mins from home???

If you have a website, YouTube page, sell pollen, honey, wax, nucs, packages, knowledge, etc, you will do well. It will take a labor of love and continuous investment, but if you stay the course, you can get there.


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## gnor

I have a small business background too, and I like your thinking. If you want to sell out of the farm gate, then make sure you have a hook.
You would think honey would be going up in price, but supermarket prices have been stable for years, which is your competition for selling a premium product. Here in Canada, one company is importing third world honey and just mixing in enough local honey to call it Canadian. Mind you, there's a beek down the road from me that calls himself an "Estate Apiary" and promotes his fancy "natural" beekeeping as a feature.


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## AdamBeal

Wait till you have 6 or 8 hives and are working in the spring to try and keep them from swarming so you can get some honey. This is some very hard physical work you will be very surprised by the time and effort it takes. Then some of the hives swarm anyway and there goes a lot of your honey. I just think looking at the cost of the equipment and bees then looking at the price of honey and how much you "could" make per hive is a very simplistic decieving practice and you will get some hard lessons down the road.


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## Daniel Y

In my personal experience. Not as much as I did the year I kept two. It all depends on the year and how well you do. much more cost much more profit required to make anything. I do have a lot of equipment now.


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## cheryl1

The way you account for things makes a difference too. I'm in expansion mode so I have a lot of equipment and feed expense right now. I run my books with two main classes though, one for honey production/sales, and one for the apiary expansion project. Obviously I'm not making any money overall yet, but by separating my income/expense streams I can see that I am in the black on honey production. I don't expect to make money overall until my equipment expenses go down. I won't be adding 50 hives worth of equipment every year.


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## Stephenpbird

It's mostly only the retired commercial or failed commercial beekeepers that have time to post, the ones you need to talk to are to busy making a profit. Even if you do get to talk to them why should they sell you the farm for nothing? Some post on forums because its part of their marketing plan.
When I bought my first hive from a commercial beekeeper he said "It's a very nice hobby but an extremely hard living".
With a 100 hives maybe you would earn more than a manual laborer, maybe not. A manual laborer with a 100 hives has a dream but no time.


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## Green Tractor

Making a living in agriculture requires either specialization or scale. 100 beehives is neither.



#ZombieThread


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## clyderoad

making a living at anything requires knowing your craft, your market, and business savvy .
if any is missing it won't work.
3 hats, equally important for success.
most don't have what it takes, so they work for someone else and collect a pay check; and then
just talk like they know.


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## bucksbees

Green Tractor said:


> Making a living in agriculture requires either specialization or scale. 100 beehives is neither.


Guess that would make it a sideline system.


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## aunt betty

If you're "savvy" you can make small amount of money at it but...
"Having" 100 bee hives is one thing. "Keeping" them is another.
To keep 100 hives I suspect a guy would have to have close to 100 nucs or more for the overflow, queen rearing, etc.
Working my way up with the original plan of sidelining. 300.
Starting to back off from such an ambitious enterprise. It's a ton of work and them bees don't wait on anyone.

Now suppose you had this balancing act figured out and could produce 50-75 pounds per hive per year. Figure around $4-5/pound if you retail it. Start your bee math calculator and figure it out. (try)


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## BeeYou

My father is a commercial beekeeper and I have been helping him for past FIVE years. He started with ONE hive back in 2012 and as of this year 2016 he has around 155 HIVES! We generated ~39,000 Lb this session! Thats nearly ~$58,500 when selling it IN BULK. 58K is calculated without the expenses etc.etc. Now that I've completed High school, I am thinking to myself why attend college or university when I can do this and earn hundreds of thousands of dollars and someday even million of dollars. I can't WAIT till this 2017 UPCOMING session!


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## COAL REAPER

BeeYou said:


> My father is a commercial beekeeper and I have been helping him for past FIVE years. He started with ONE hive back in 2012 and as of this year 2016 he has around 155 HIVES! We generated ~39,000 Lb this session! Thats nearly ~$58,500 when selling it IN BULK. 58K is calculated without the expenses etc.etc. Now that I've completed High school, I am thinking to myself why attend college or university when I can do this and earn hundreds of thousands of dollars and someday even million of dollars. I can't WAIT till this 2017 UPCOMING session!


250# average?


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## DGR

Micky, unlike many on this site, I am a new beekeeper who has almost become bee-bound to my 4 hives. I work full time and the bees keep me the balance of my life. I would caution you on grand expectations for a business in beekeeping. I would have thought your stepfather would have let you get waist deep in a couple of hives to help you see how simple and easy the bee experience is from day to day. It is an extremely visual process that requires you to evaluate what you see inside and outside of the hives in a very limited amount of time and take some action when necessary. ( The heat is a factor-- June to early September, it is very hot in most place except the far north. in a bee suit is even hotter.) While it is one of the most rewarding and fascinating things I have done in my 60 years, it is not for the faint hearted. Several have given you actual numbers of costs to show you what to expect as a business. I would suggest that you take a beekeeping class and get your certification from your state to avoid mistakes from a lack of knowledge. Then, get your stepfather to let you split a couple of hives from his. By the time you add deeps and a super to either of them, you will know if you need to move forward. I do it for the bees and my connection to nature on a philosophical level and a sense of accomplishment on a personal level. I have no illusions about making 100 grand beekeeping. Anytime your have a business that is in the "real" world, completely in nature, you are on your own fighting all other critters who are simply trying to survive. It is not as simple as the Youtube video of the Flowhive. Some of the most rewarding things in life are the hardest.


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## Popcornblizzard

Hello from years and years later haha. A lot of these responses are bologna. When you run a business, yes you have lots of expenses. Net profit on a business, if kept low also keeps taxes low. lots of transactions can be done in cash (off books) etc. so take whatever someone says about their expenses with a Utah sized grain of salt. Also, you can sell 3lbs of honey for like 20 bucks, but it depends on where you live. I live in jacksonville florida and it goes for about that retail. If you're spending 80k and taking in 90k and all of your expenses are something like gas (stuff you have to spend), then your business isnt worth your time. 10k profit @ minimium 2k hours per year is 5 bucks an hour and ur prob working lots more than that! So likely if someone is doing their business, taking in 90k a year and making 10k profit...they're intermingling personal expenses with business. make sense? it's a common way for people to evade taxes and poopoo on those trying to start their own business, saying how bad they do. Work smart, keep expenses low and income high. Don't waste. 



MikeyReej said:


> How much money do beekeepers make a year? How many hives would it take to make 100 grand? My stepfather is a hobbyist beekeeper and I'm thinking about starting up my own business. Any thoughts? Thanks,
> Michael


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## amk

Wow interesting old post learned a lot about spelling. I’ve been growing my hives and trying to buildup to maybe make a profit which has become a hobby of its own. The wife and I were discussing my hobby and what I’ve spent and about that time I looked outside at my $40k fishing boat....


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## kilocharlie

*Re: Thanks*



MikeyReej said:


> How realistic would it be for a beekeeper with about 3 years experience to handle 300-400 hives by himself full time. How many hours would this take?


Probably not very realistic ....yet. You most likely do not have enough knowledge of local (nearest 8 to 25 states) nectar and pollen flows, who your pollination contracts are coming from, how droughts and wet years will affect your game, and a great number of other factors. Please do not take offense - notice I said Probably 

There have been exceptions - The prodigy up in Roy, Washington was a longtime animal breeder with a workshop and a farm shot up faster than most of us. Let's not forget that person possesses one of the better brains in the lot of us, too. One who is already a class A driver, has land, lots of years doing carpentry, animal care, understands genetics, know his way around the agricultural community, and gets along with people would have a much better chance than one who has been, say working as a pizza delivery guru. And, there once was a year (different years each case) when Michael Palmer, Kirk Webster, oldtimer down in New Zealand, JWChesnut, Dr. Lawrence John Connor, and Dr. Sue Cobey all had 3 years experience. You'll have to ask them about how many hives they had back then.


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## hagane

I wonder in all the expenses if people are putting their house and land in the expenses? 

In a way that's fair but can be misleading. 

If its paying for your life in all areas, and you are happy isn't that good enough?


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## JWPalmer

I was not aware one could make money with bees outside of almonds. I am still trying to figure out how to break even. 3 years in and down about 8K. But, like the guy with the boat, I have a small airplane, so I already know how to spend a lot of money on hobbies.


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## ifixoldhouses

JWPalmer said:


> I was not aware one could make money with bees outside of almonds. I am still trying to figure out how to break even. 3 years in and down about 8K. But, like the guy with the boat, I have a small airplane, so I already know how to spend a lot of money on hobbies.


I've spent $6,000 in 4 months


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## kilocharlie

JWPalmer said:


> I was not aware one could make money with bees outside of almonds. I am still trying to figure out how to break even. 3 years in and down about 8K. But, like the guy with the boat, I have a small airplane, so I already know how to spend a lot of money on hobbies.


It usually takes from 700 to 2,500 bee colonies per person in the company to make a full-time living. Most of the time that applies to someone with land, trucks, and a workshop.

So figure a team of 4 regular beekeeper / workers (Class A license, skilled in carpentry, adept at raising queens, etc.), that number usually varies from well above 2,800 colonies on up to 10,000 colonies.

Almond fees on 10,000 colonies is probably not the nice, neat $1,500,000 we'd like to think. You will gross about 3/4 of that in the best of years because no matter how good you are, some colonies are going down, not up in population. Deadouts are very common these days. There is time for as many as 6 crops in the year around the agricultural stronghold of North America (fewer up North unless you travel), but things happen that sometimes prevent even the best beekeepers from taking maximum advantage of 6 paying crops, so figure 4 paying - suppose almond, pistachio at $115 per colony, avocado at $80 per colony, seed flowers at $40 per colony, and [blueberries, apples + you-name-it small crops that do not require all you bees] and average $40 per colony (the rest is nectar / pollen crop for your bees). 

A team of 4 extremely competent beekeepers that are healthy, have plenty of contracts, have trucks that are still running on the economic end (not yet breaking down on a regular schedule so as to prevent the work from getting done) and a ranch or other property that is paid for will often have a difficult time seeing $2 million gross even on the good years. Subtract out the fixed costs, overhead, taxes, wages, insurance (and the rest of the expenses on the chart of accounts). Add back the honey profit. 

Figure how many wet years vs how many dry years are normal for your area. Don't forget to look at the last 30 years, 20 years, and 10 years trend due to global warming (or cooling if you are in such an area). Run a model based on historic weather pattern, but weight it somewhat with the recent trends, especially if the 30-year is drier than the long-term base, the 20 year average is drier than the 30-year, and the last 10 years are drier than the last 20. That last sentence is telling you that if your area is indeed very much subject to global warming trends, either look for a wetter area or try a different business.

Consider also that there are now many many more beekeepers than back in 2008. Although many have already come and gone, some are still here, some have moved up to sideline and commercial status, and the opportunities for contracts have gotten a lot thinner.

This looks less and less like a successful proposition with every turn of the page. Keep your regular job and build up to sideliner level (50 to 450 colonies) with good queen rearing and increase skills. It takes time. If your kids love it, you'll be able to skirt around wages and lots of the taxation. When it is clearly time for a 53-foot big rig and a class A license, move on up into a full-time commercial operation and kiss your free time and enough sleep good bye. Meanwhile, figure out how to successfully deal with mites on a commercial scale.


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## Nightgardener

BjornBee said:


> A long time ago, someone told me some advice... "Always surround yourself with people who will lift you up, and not with those who will drag you down. You will never lift them higher than how far they will drag you down".
> 
> With that said, I think anyone who comes to a discussion board to ask opinions of such topics, should probably heed the advice and stay clear of spending too much money on such business ventures. Obviously, there are better ways to seek true opportunities and gain experience in such matters. Many always try to invent something new, or create a new way of doing something. And although I believe the market does in fact reward creativity, it also rewards hard work and determination. But it rewards those that are willing to seek out successful operations, and do little more than copy successful plans and management.
> 
> We all have heard about how 95% of all small business fail. Many times it's not due to a bad product or bad concept, but just bad management. So I wonder how many of those responding has even had a successful business, let alone a bee business. And wouldn't 95% of the responses just would be assumed would be from those that failed? You may be better off seeking out that 5% on the more brighter side.
> 
> So let me sum up what I have read. You want to start a bee business. You post a question on beesource, a day or two later based on the replies posted here, from people you probably know little about, and you have concluded that your search has ended and thats as far as your quest goes. There are people who spend months if not years, formulating a business plan, making contacts, seeking the knowledge of those who may actually be in a position to set you on the right path, acquire some capital, and about a hundred other things that many, many successful people have done to ensure a better chance of success.
> 
> Don't take this the wrong way. But with what I have read, I agree that you should move on. Not to another business, because that may require the same fortitude and perseverance in making it work. Whether that be a restaurant, building widgets, opening a flower shop, or anything else. Just get a job. Or take some business classes and see if there is a local "SCORE" chapter in your area. But I hope your path to a truly fulfilling career and business does find you. Just expect to do a little more research than posting on the associated website, and taking the advice of a bunch of people who may be firmly gripped on the 95% side of the isle.
> 
> Good Luck.


I know this is an old thread, but your "advice" here is true gold. I'm an accountant and have worked with many small businesses over the years. The people who are successful are the one's that manage their business well; when they encounter problems, they find a way to make things work! I'm relatively new to beekeeping, but I already know several people who have been very successful with various business models. Pollination, comb honey, selling pollen, and, not the least...selling bees and queens! But it's true, 95% of all people don't have a business mindset, and so the best they can hope for is a hobby that at least "pays for itself." That is nothing to scoff at, either! But it's so true, most of us have toyed with the idea of making money with bees, but only a few have the perseverance and mindset to follow through.


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## Tim Ives

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*



sqkcrk said:


> If it gets you into a position to make income from enough hives so you can be a beekeeper full time or as a sideline while working a paying job, why is that a bad idea?
> 
> It worked for me. and I am not as good a business person or as hard a worker as others I have read of on these Forums. I bet Tim Ives could do well w/ many more hives bought w/ loans at the rate of 2%.
> 
> Why is that a bad idea? For someone willing to do whatever it takes?


Surely dont need more colonies, till I have a bigger building to efficiently process. 
Pretty fond of not having any debt tho too.


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## kilocharlie

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*

Just a comparison / contrast - 

I used to officiate sports, having baseball in my family bloodlines. That was a hobby that required exceptional dedication to learn the nuances of all the rules, but all you needed was a uniform, a pair of plate shoes, chest protector, shin guards, a hat, sunglasses, a face mask, an indicator, a vehicle, a phone, a calendar, and good self-control. You did have to hustle on the field, even on double headers in 106 degree weather. 

But you made money. Plenty of money to play with, money for gas, and if you knew 4 or 5 sports, you would have enough to buy a new van or truck in a few years. That is a hobby that pays for itself and then some. 

Beekeeping, taken as a hobby, is not lucrative like that. The scale has to be full-time, and take it as a way of life. 

Buying honey and making mead could be done for profit, but you'll need several reliable beekeepers to get into a habit of selling you their honey, not all that difficult if the mead is good...


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## GregB

*Re: Making money as a beekeeper*

Never mind.


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