# apitherapy anyone?



## snoopybee

Barry

I have no expereience but have an interest. Would like to see it happen. Have a friend in lots of pain and nothing else seems to have done much good so far.

Ray


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## BULLSEYE BILL

I had a problem with my neck a year and a half ago that got to the point that I would sting myself (with a bee).

It gave a relief that lasted for a few days. I worked myself up to three stings in that area and the relief would last for a little over a week. The problem cleared up after about four months. I can not say what finally caused the healing, different pillow, sleeping habits, etc.

Once the neck stopped tensing up it seemed to relax to the point that it finally realigned and the pain went away.


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## Sundance

My concerns are liability. Is any level of
training required?? Who is responsible if
a "patient" goes into anaphylactic shock??


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## jjgbee

I use 6 stings about every 6 weeks for back pain. I have 3 degenerated discs. Started with 6 stings per week, 3 years ago. Have used stings for 30 yrs for calcium deposits in joints.


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## nc checkers

I have used honey on a skin rash and it stops the itching and seems to help clear it up. Apply a small amount 2 or 3 time a day.


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## Hobie

I'm interested in the idea of apitherapy, but know virtually nothing and would not have anything to contribute to a separate forum. I have used honey on wounds (there are several threads on this in "Everything Honey") but I'm not sure that is what you mean.


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## Craig W.

I'm with Bruce on this one. I have thought about it then I think what if they find out they are allergic to bees during a session and worse its a child. Or any number of problems, what if the courts say we are administering health care.


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## Joel

I fell of a ledge while skirting a difficult path in the fall of 1994 with a chainsaw in one hand and a splitting maul in the other. I ended up on the table 3 weeks later with a neurosurgeon trying to undo what I did. After the surgery I was told all the things I would never do, including ride 8 hours a day in a vehicle, have feeling in the toes on my left foot, lift bee hives etc. etc. etc. The 1st 2 years were painful days and an hour or so waiting for painkillers like Codeine and Darvaset to kick in spent laying where I dropped when I tried do something I shouldn't. I read a study on Apitherapy that was done on back surgery patients, I think out of the University of Montanna. They found that people with conditions simlar to mine underwent apitherapy over a period of a couple of months. 80% of the respondents had incredible results with not further back problems over a period of 5 yrs with just the orginal treatments. 20% percent had to be retreated and most had continued success over a 10 year period.

Shortly after that I went to one of Pat Wagners seminars and after sitting for an hour through the program in agony I agreed to give it a try. Took my 1st. 6 stings and within 15 minutes I had complete relief. My wife continued to administer Apitherapy (a little too zealously sometimes). Over the next year. My moments on the floor became brief, about 5-10 minutes after being stung I was back on my feet and in motion, with almost complete relief.

My research on the subject told me this was why:

1) Bee Venom, which has no medicinal value intself causes a reaction in the body which procduces the following effects.

a) Body produces cortisol (the natural hydrocortisone) which is like getting the shot but much more effective.

b) Also makes the body produce anti-inflamatories which treat the both the sting damage and everything else in the area.

c) Body produces melotonin (I think that's the one) which helps to break down and/or soften scar tissue.

13 years later I'm doing all the things I was told I wouldn't be and with very minimal problems. I need a round of therapy about every 2 years but the results for me have been quite remarkable.

[ January 24, 2007, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Sundance

Wow...... Brutal Joel, sorry to hear of your
misfortune. I am convinced by your experience
and many I've read that it does indeed work.
Enough so I am going to try it on my tennis
elbow, a simple malady, but it sure can be
debilitating at times.

My concerns remain for doing it for others.


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## snoopybee

I would be concerned about legalities if I planned on becoming Dr. Bee. I think the forum might get the response required to be able to teach us enough about it that we can educate friends and family. Then if they want to seek out a medical doctor or practioner, they may do so and be informed enough to ask questions and make a decision. Those who try to becomr Dr. Bee could do so at their own risk!

Ray


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## Guest

I have problems with an elbow, Maybe i'll give my girls a go this summer.

I would have never thought a couple years ago I would self inflict stings!


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## shawnwri

American Apitherapy Society is at apitherapy.org


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## Ruben

I would like to see it.


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## mwjohnson

I know a guy who sells a few bees every week to another guy to take home and "administer" his own "shots"?

How's he liable?


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## newbeeII

My "Elmer", became a bee keeper to releive pain from cronic pain.
Look at, "BeewellTherapy.com" just another look .


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## newbeeII

My "Elmer", became a bee keeper to releive pain from cronic pain.
Look at, "BeewellTherapy.com" just another look .


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## samak

Isn't apitherapy the use of honeybee products in health care? So it can be anything from using honey, propolis, to bee stings. A more thorough definition from dictionary.com is as follows:

"Apitherapy is the medical use of honeybee products. This can include the use of honey, pollen, propolis, royal jelly, and bee venom.
Most claims of apitherapy have not been proved to the scientific standards of evidence-based medicine and are anecdotal in nature. A wide variety of conditions and diseases have been suggested as candidates for apitherapy, the most well-known being bee venom therapy for autoimmune diseases and multiple sclerosis." 

It would be nice if the "scientific" community would take these things more seriously and stop dismissing such things as simply anecdotal. So a new forum to discuss any thing about this or maybe even any new research that is being done about it would also be nice. Why is it that even though some promising research has been done on honeybee products, that there still does not seem to be anybody who cares too much for it in the scientific/medical community? Is it just me, or do you all feel that there should be more serious research and implementation of the results that are found through such research?


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## LT

I had a bad case of tendonitis in the elbow. Talked to a bee keeper he recommended stings. It worked. Guess that is why I am now hooked on bee keeping. Would love to see a topic section related to this.


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## indypartridge

> Why is it that even though some promising research has been done on honeybee products, that there still does not seem to be anybody who cares too much for it in the scientific/medical community? Is it just me, or do you all feel that there should be more serious research and implementation of the results that are found through such research?


Follow the money. Apitherapy, just like many natural/herbal remedies, does not hold the promise of patented, designer-drugs that produce big-money results. And, regarding bee stings specifically, it would be difficult to do a proper, double-blind study of their effectiveness, since that would require development of bees that could sting with a placebo venom instead of regular venom!


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## flathead

I just got a call from someone looking to buy bees from me and then administer himself.

He has RSD whatever that is and has done this before.

I want to help him but I not sure of the liability. Told him I would think about it.

How much would you charge someone for 25 or 30 bees?

How would you package them so he could get to them one at a time?

Yes, I would like to see an apitherapy forum.


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## denny

I've used bee venon for the last 3 or 4 yrs to deal with arthritis in my fingers. It works real well but you have to be patient, at least in my case, because it takes quite a few sessions of stings before there's any sign of improvement. When I first started the bee sting therapy, the arthritic pain & swelling was so bad in my thumb that I couldn't hold a tool in my hand and use it. (Cabinetmaker by trade). I would take bees from the entrance of a hive and sting my ailing thumb , hand, & wrist, using 5-8 stings about 3-4 times a week. I did it all summer and by the Fall there was no more pain,no swelling,...the thumb was normal again, and has been ever since. That was about 4 years ago, and since then I've had to do the forefinger of the same hand, and that too, is back to normal. I also get the feeling that the bee venon is good for my system as a whole,...as I somehow feel good after each treatment session. I'll surely be doing more treatments come spring,.....maybe not with that many stings, but enough to feel the effects of "loosening" and "limbering" in my fingers. I may do some work on my shoulders , too. Yep,..the bees are wonderful in so many ways!


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## clintonbemrose

I do supply 2 different women with MS with bees that a doctor administers. 1 has been doing 10 stings a day for almost 5 years and when she started she was confined to a wheel chair and any movement was painful to her. Today you can't tell that she has problems, she walks just like every one else.
The other lady has been doing the therapy for 3 1/2 years and it does not help but she keeps trying.
I have been supplying the bees for free but have started hives for them at their home and help them maintain them.
Clint


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## Janice Lane

I got into beekeeping because my dad has MS and he wanted to try the bee venom therapy. It helped give him more energy, but he hasn't been stung in a while. They recommend going off all medicines and I don't think that is safe for him to do. We might try it again come spring. I also thought about setting up an observation hive where it would be easy for my mom to catch the bees.

[ January 27, 2007, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Janice Lane ]


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## kc in wv

I am very interested in Apitherpy. I have read Charles Mraz book and several others on bee products in health. 

I have been chewing on propolis all winter whenever I think I am going to get a soar throat. It works.

I also have a jar of Propolis and Gin soaking for making tinctures. The tincture can be used on wounds and also add to your coffee or tea as a way to ward off flu. 

In the summer I don't have as many aches and pains. I think this is as a result of the bee stings.

I have also noticed over the years that beekeepers don't seem to have as much severe arthritis as the general population.

I have lots of theories on apitherapy but my wife will not listen


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## sierrabees

Having been trained in conventional medicine I am always appalled at the attitude usually taken by my collegues when it comes to "folk medicine". The most commen reason to ignore results they don't want to hear is to call any evidence ancedotal. It's interesting that every room in the local hospital has a poster that askes patients to rate their pain on a scale of one to ten. It is presumed that this provides a means of scientificly measuring results. On the other hand if someone states that they had extreme pain before a "folk treatment" and they have zero pain now this is anectdotal. For some reason just because we obtain a doctors degree we seem to think that it requires us to forget that nearly every medical breakthrough that has occured in modern medicine was because someone took the trouble to trace down and analyse a folk cure, determine the active agents involved, and publish it in a scientific journal.


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## jjgbee

How does a novice handle bees? Answer... Use a wide mouth jar. Find bees visiting flowers. Quickly put jar over bee and flower. Bee will fly up against glass trying to escape. Do not invert jar, put lid on. The bee will continue to try to escape toward the sun. Several bees can be caught in the same jar without others escaping. Put bees in refrigerator and cool down till dormance sets in. Dump bees on counter and grasp them by wings, they will come to life from your body heat. Now you have a bee properly positioned to sting where you want. Cool area to be stung with ice. It lessens pain. P.S. Who can catch the most bees in 10 minutes makes a great game at a beekeeper picknic.


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## John Russell

Liability in this day and age is a factor in everything we do, from administering stings to serving a too hot cup of coffee. ( Remember Mc Donalds? ) Heck, Starbucks was sued when some schlep pinched his unit when he sat down on a toilet seat. 
I've administered stings quite often to family and friends, always with positive results, but I would strongly suggest the person taking an allergy test first, having an epipen and transportation close by, and having about 2 million in liability insurance.
Better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.

J.R.


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## CWBees

I have been having on and off rotator cuff problems in my shoulder ever since I strained it hang gliding a couple years ago. I did not have trouble with it last summer when I was getting stung working my bees. Now it is back however I can't quite work myself up to getting myself stung on purpose. It will be interesting to see if I get relief from the roator cuff pain when if I get stung working the bees this spring.


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss

I resorted to bee stings a few years ago for pain in my neck, shoulder and right arm that was a result of degenerative disc disease. I read a book by Amber Rose "How Well Are You Willing To Bee," and my husband would pick the bees off of the landing board of a hive and give me stings right in our back yard. I know the neighbors thought they were witnessing spousal abuse.

I started out with a test sting and then got five more that day. I increased my stings by two each time, getting stung every other day. When I got up to about 16 stings I just kept them at 16 every other day. It took about six months, but the pain went away and stayed away for several years. 

About three weeks ago, I started having pain in my right upper arm and forearm. It was a more intense pain than before. I already had some heavy duty pain killers for a ruptured disc in my back, but they had no effect on this arm pain. I went to the Spring NC State Beekeepers Meeting May 2 and 3, and sat in on an Apitherapy class. I got a test sting by the Apitherapist (Frederique Keller) and had planned on being treated during the class. Unfortunately I was the next to the last person in line and they ran out of time about four people ahead of me. 

My husband and I stopped Frederique between sessions and she marked my neck, shoulder and arm in eight places with a red felt tipped pen and told my husband to sting those places. When we got home from the conference he followed her directions and I was immediately pain free. It was so miraculous to me. It has been short lived relief - by the next couple of days the pain is back. I am continuing to get stings in the same places every other day and this gets me through the next 48 or so hours. I am hoping that soon I will be able to spread out the length of time between stings. 

Incidently, I am a nurse. The doctors and nurses that I used to work with thought that had gone completely nuts when I told them about the apitherapy I was using a few years ago. I'm not nursing anymore, but I'm sure their reaction would probably be the same. The thing is that I haven't needed any pain medication for my arm or my back for three days now. I had spent the previous three weeks taking it every four hours and still in pain. So, who is the crazy one? Not me. 

I can't remember if I learned this from Amber Rose's book or Pat Wagner's (I have both of them) but if you keep twenty or so bees in a wide mouth plastic jar with holes in the sides and lid, you can spray the bees with water before you open the jar. This makes them much easier to catch with forceps or long tweezers. One advantage of this over just grabbing them off of the landing board is that you can grab them by the head. When my husband would grab them off of the landing board if he got them by the abdomen they tended to poo when they stung me. I guess he literally squeezed the **** out of them.

I am considering going to The Charles Miraz Course and International Conference in Raleigh, NC in April. Its so expensive, though. If they really want to get the word out and promote apitherapy they should consider reducing the cost: $225.00. I'll see how the funds are looking before I make a definite decision. Anyone else planning to go?


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## kenpkr

"I would be concerned about legalities if I planned on becoming Dr. Bee"

If we had the "patient" sign a very well written liability release form would that keep us from being sued?! Maybe someone with some legal expertise could comment on that.


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## Albert

I would like to see an apiatherapy forum.

I have noticed that when on the rare occasion I get stung, any pain from some injuries I sustained years ago lessens. Now having said that, the sites that I have been stung at tend to itch like crazy for four or five days. If I get stung on the face though, I don't swell or itch. On my hands it swells and hurts a little for a while and then gets itchy. On my legs, forget about it! It gets hot to the touch and itchy enough to drive me half mad.

I vote to give the forum a go, share links and suggestions, and make sure there is a heading that releases BeeSource from any liability.

Albert


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## beegee

*apitherapy*

We just had our NC spring meeting and Dr.Theo Cherbuliez had a workshop on apitherapy. I volunteered to have my left foot stung for diabetic neuropathy. He said that anyone treated should first be advised of the risk, then be tested for allergy by stinging on the back of the right wrist. He also said NEVER administer a sting without having an epipen available. We had about 25 volunteers who were treated, no problems. My neuropathy is better today(stung Saturday) and I was advised to administer my own stings to the prescribed nerve points. I'm waiting until I can build a little bee box to collect my apitherapy bees in. 

There will be a 3-day workshop in Raleigh in April. get details on the AAS website:

http://www.apitherapy.org/news.html

I'm all for "aternative" medicine. I'm trying to convince my wife that beesting therapy will help her current chronic cough. She's not convinced that bee stings are something she will voluntarily endure.


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss

I was at Dr.Theo Cherbuliez's and Frederique Keller's workshop, too! Were you in the first class? If so, I was sitting just to your left. (I remember seeing a man with his shoe and sock off.) Are you going to the AAS course and conference in Raleigh?

If your wife is opposed to stings, she may want to try propolis for her cough. You can make a preparation with 140 proof or higher alcohol. I bought a book at EAS in Georgia from Ann Harmon last summer that has instructions. 

I haven't made any yet but I did buy some 190 proof Everclear yesterday. It started a nostalgic conversation at the ABC store among the employees about high school, the beach and making PJ in the bathtub there. I guess you had to be there...
Susan


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## buckbee

*apitherapy*

Apitherapy is videly used in Europe - especially eastern European countries - though not to any extent in the UK. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence for its effectiveness in certain conditions and I would welcome an Apitherapy section on the board where it can be discussed.


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## beegee

*apitherapy*

I guess as long as the doctors and hospitals of the AMA and the drug manufacturers make so much money from pushing pills, they don't care about anything that is cheap and effective. After all,modern medicine is not about healing, it's about treating and getting insurance money. My wife has been treated for a chronic cough since August last year. Her GP and her Pulmonary Specialist were prescribing drugs and treatment that were in conflict with each other. They have diagnosed her ailment variously as allergies, asthma, chronic bronchitis and now COPD. I gave her some honey and vinegar which works for me(I prefer bourbon and honey), and it didn't faze her cough. I'll try some propolis and Everclear.


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss

Beegee- After posting this morning I was inspired to get out the book I had bought and start rendering propolis. My husband had some in the freezer. According to the book, you want a 1:4 concentration of propolis:alcohol by weight. Put the propolis in a glass jar, pour the alcohol over it then put it in a dark warm place. Every day for 7 to 12 days shake the jar. At the end of that time period filter it. (You can use muslin or a coffee filter.) Then place the jar in the refrigerator "for a day or so," then filter again and store in a dark glass bottle. I had a limited amount of propolis and didn't want to use it all on the first experiment, so I used 62.5 grams of propolis to 250 grams of Everclear. I'll let you know in a few weeks how it turns out.
Susan


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## Albert

*Accupuncture points...*

I wonder if accupuncture points and apitherapy points might be the same in many cases. If so there is a lot of references to accupuncture points on the web and elsewhere.

I still vote for a forum!

Albert


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## Dee

I would like a thread on this subject. Apitherapy is something that I would like to learn about. I've read that if you incorporate accupuncture along with BVT you get much better results. Drapers Super Bee in Millerton, PA does BVT, they may even help me learn more about it?


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## inga

Albert said:


> I wonder if accupuncture points and apitherapy points might be the same in many cases. If so there is a lot of references to accupuncture points on the web and elsewhere.


I think so.

See http://www.honeybeecentre.com/bvt.htm

By the way, my mom cured arthritis in her thumb with bee stings -- lots of them -- and it stayed away for years. She's eager for more bees to cure what ails her now.


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss

Albert said:


> I wonder if accupuncture points and apitherapy points might be the same in many cases. If so there is a lot of references to accupuncture points on the web and elsewhere.
> 
> Albert


From what I've read, there are two theories. One is to sting the accupuncture pathways. Two is to sting where it hurts. Some people do a combination of both.
Susan


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## Albert

Thanks Susan!

I could see from a therapuetic standpoint how both approaches have validity. One to attack/heal the source directly and the other to assistand stimulate the body to do the same.

I already have enough on my plate to learn, but this is going to have to fit in. I didn't realize how helpful the stings have been until we communicated about it here. When I mentioned it to my wife, she confirmed that I hadn't complained about my hip for a couple of weeks after the last couple of stings.

I really hate to sacrifice any of my girls. But the greater good must prevail.

I'm STILL all for a seperate forum!

Albert


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## bluegrass

I am a little late to this thread but I'll post anyway. I get asked every now and then if I would provide bees for people. I do not support the practice or any beekeeper foolish enough to provide people with a very serious allergen. I have first hand experience with a law suet resaulting from an allergic reaction to a product. It was not bee related, but it was a family business that went bankrupt because of it.


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss

bluegrass said:


> I am a little late to this thread but I'll post anyway. I get asked every now and then if I would provide bees for people. I do not support the practice or any beekeeper foolish enough to provide people with a very serious allergen.


I can respect that, Bluegrass. We all have to do what we are comfortable with. But there are many "serious allergens." Peanuts, seafood, iodine, all medications. 

Keep in mind that it is only a serious allergen if you are highly allergic to it. Your chances of having an anaphyactic reaction to a honeybee sting are lower than your chance of winning the lottery. Incidentally, I learned this fact from a doctor who spoke at a NC state beekeeper meeting.

Susan


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## bluegrass

I think the difference is that with these other allergens there are warnings on the lable. Bees don't come with lables. I personally feel that it is a high risk business practice for the beekeeper. If enough people get into this type of therapy then it is only a matter of time before somebody dies....and that type of news coverage is what we as beekeepers don't need. I will not provide bees and discorage anybody who asks from persuing this type of therapy. I think if it was effective and safe we would have bee venom for sale at the drug store. If I were considering selling bees for this I would be sure to have a disclaimer and know the select few customers I sell to very well.


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss

bluegrass said:


> I think the difference is that with these other allergens there are warnings on the lable. Bees don't come with lables. I personally feel that it is a high risk business practice for the beekeeper. If enough people get into this type of therapy then it is only a matter of time before somebody dies....and that type of news coverage is what we as beekeepers don't need. I will not provide bees and discorage anybody who asks from persuing this type of therapy. I think if it was effective and safe we would have bee venom for sale at the drug store. If I were considering selling bees for this I would be sure to have a disclaimer and know the select few customers I sell to very well.


You're absolutely right - these other things do come with labels. It wasn't always so, though. I agree that if you plan on selling bees for this purpose or if you plan to offer apitherapy that you should have a disclaimer form signed. And probably in most states you can be charged with practice medicine without a license if you charge for actually performing apitherapy on someone unless you are some type of licensed medical provider like a doctor or accupuncturist. 

You actually can buy apitherapy products in some health food stores now. But the reason that you don't see them in mainstream drug stores has nothng to do with the effectiveness or safety of the therapy. It has to do with the effectiveness of pharmaceutical manufacturers at courting doctors and lobbying our US goverment. It would be a real stretch to call many of the drugs that make it to the market safe. The worst of them get pulled from the market, usually within the first year. A few not so quickly. Others remain on the market because they help one problem even though they cause other problems. What happens then? Your doctor puts you on another med or two, and so on, and so on. 

No one is lobbying for bee sting therapy on the same scale as pharmaceutical companies for their cash cow. No one is pursuing doctors, PAs or Nurse Practitioners on behalf of apitherapists like the pharmaceutical reps do for the big drug companies. They have an enormous amount of money to spend to plead their cause. That's why everyone's meds cost so darned much! Rest assured that we have all been duly warned. 
Susan


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## SCBeeBrewer

*Apitherapy Anyone?*

If this has not already been posted by others:

The American Apitherapy Society International Conference will be held in Raleigh, NC. April 26-29, 2007. To register or receive more information visit www.apitherapy.org or email [email protected]. 818-501-0446

Charles Mraz Apitherapy Course. Apitherapy training focuses on the therapeutic use of products of the beehive: honey, pollen, propolis, royal jelly, and bee venom.

I attended the NC/SC Spring Beekeeping Conference. The conference had two Apitherapist administering bee venom Apitherapy to over 100 volunteers. I will post a photo, although I don't know how to at this time. This my first post.

 Yikes! 

Steve


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## MGBee

I'm attending. Hope to meet some of you there.

Miles


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## inga

bluegrass said:


> I will not provide bees and discorage anybody who asks from persuing this type of therapy. I think if it was effective and safe we would have bee venom for sale at the drug store.





Gregory and Susan Fariss said:


> You actually can buy apitherapy products in some health food stores now. But the reason that you don't see them in mainstream drug stores has nothng to do with the effectiveness or safety of the therapy. It has to do with the effectiveness of pharmaceutical manufacturers at courting doctors and lobbying our US goverment. It would be a real stretch to call many of the drugs that make it to the market safe. The worst of them get pulled from the market, usually within the first year. A few not so quickly. Others remain on the market because they help one problem even though they cause other problems. What happens then? Your doctor puts you on another med or two, and so on, and so on.
> 
> No one is lobbying for bee sting therapy on the same scale as pharmaceutical companies for their cash cow. No one is pursuing doctors, PAs or Nurse Practitioners on behalf of apitherapists like the pharmaceutical reps do for the big drug companies. They have an enormous amount of money to spend to plead their cause. That's why everyone's meds cost so darned much! Rest assured that we have all been duly warned.
> Susan


I agree totally.

North America is generally several decades behind Europe in the matter of natural therapies. Perhaps it is because we have a stronger pharmaceutical lobby??

Bee venom has now been for sale in Europe at least since the 1980's, if not longer.


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## uncletom

I used to get migrains. So bad I lost time at work not to mention with the family and bees. At the sugestion of my father, I stung myself in the back of the neck during the middle of one episode. less than 5 minutes I was home free. Over a period of time my migranes have declined to being very rare. I rarely wear protection when I work my bees. If I dont get stung from time to time, i make it a point to sting myself. I dont know what it can or cant do as far as disease goes, but i figure it cant hurt.... (pun intended, sorry).

tom


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss

SCBeeBrewer said:


> If this has not already been posted by others:
> 
> The American Apitherapy Society International Conference will be held in Raleigh, NC. April 26-29, 2007...
> ...I attended the NC/SC Spring Beekeeping Conference. The conference had two Apitherapist administering bee venom Apitherapy to over 100 volunteers. I will post a photo, although I don't know how to at this time. This my first post.
> 
> Yikes!
> 
> Steve


Welcome, Steve! Some of us were at the meeting in Monroe, NC, that you speak of and got stings there. I would love to go to the classes in Raleigh, but they are so darned expensive that I don't know if I will be able to or not. I will continue my stings though, as long as they are helping my back, neck, shoulder and arm pain. If I go too many days without stings the pain returns. As long as I sting every two to three days, I have no pain and I can do things I have not been able to do in years. (lifting, carrying over 20 lbs, vacuuming) 

Susan


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## sierrabees

Two years ago I was raving about being pain free because of the bee stings. I ended up in the emergancy room with the beginings a anaphalxis toward the end of that year and became a much more careful beekeeper. As a result I had an extremely bad year with my back. This spring I have a really nasty hive that I won't get rid of because I took 80% losses this winter. They hit me about 25 times about four days ago so I popped some benadryl and still got more pain and swelling than I normally get. Guess what? I am now walking normal and getting out of bed without having to inch myself up. I just need to find some way to ballance the risk with the benifit.


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## Albert

Sierra,

And I can't even goad my girls to sting me!

I'm having some difficuty getting the girls to commit Hari-Kiri lately. Ever since I took the gloves and viel off, I haven't been stung. Tommorrow is my last chance for a week or two. I think I'm going to have to get drastic, and actually grab a few and make them sting me. I only wish I could get it someplace other than my hands!

Regards,
Albert


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## beegee

Hey Albert, wait a few months. Maybe the AHB will make it easier tro get stung...Sorry, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.


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## buz

*jar application*

So if you've got a bee or two in the glass jar--why not just apply the opened end to the area you hope to sting? Holding one by the wings might cause too much comotion should she escape.

And yes-balance between benefit and risk is a fine line. With the case of multiple stings.....best to work up to the final number slowly. 

Best of luck to those supplying bees.


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## peggjam

flathead said:


> I just got a call from someone looking to buy bees from me and then administer himself.
> 
> He has RSD whatever that is and has done this before.
> 
> I want to help him but I not sure of the liability. Told him I would think about it.
> 
> How much would you charge someone for 25 or 30 bees?
> 
> How would you package them so he could get to them one at a time?
> 
> Yes, I would like to see an apitherapy forum.


RSD is reflex sympithic nerve disorder, which was changed to Complex Regional Pain Syndrome. The following link has more info:

http://www.rsds.org/2/what_is_rsd_crps/index.html

I've suffered with this for 18 years following a farm accident. It is not something I would wish on anybody. There are no painkillers that I am aware of that will even touch the pain, and there is no cure. I do feel better after being stung 10 or 15 times, but it only lasts for a few days at a time.


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## Velbert

*Apitherapist*

Reyah Carlson
1252 South Marshfield Road
Bruner MO. 65620 417 278 0127

This woman Spoke at the Oklahoma State meeting this Saturday very nice woman and very interested in helping people with ailments, She her self has MS and is doing good because of of apitherapy.

http://www.reyahsbeesness.com

http://www.apitherapy.org


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## clintonbemrose

I have 2 diferent ladys that I supplied bees for before I set up 2 hives each. Now I take care of the hives for them. Both lady's have MS. One takes 10 stings a day. When she started 5 years ago she was in a wheel chair and it was paneful for her to move. You would not know her today as the same person because she walks and talks better than me. The other lady has been doing 12 stings a day for 4 years but it has not helped her. Both women have the same doctor and he says that this is not unusual.
Clint


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss

flathead said:


> How much would you charge someone for 25 or 30 bees?
> 
> How would you package them so he could get to them one at a time?


Did these original questions get answered? If not, here is what I know. There is a Greg Feriss (strange coincidence) that sells bees for apitherapy. Here is a link to his page. http://www.radix.net/~honeybs/ 

I don't know if he quotes prices or not, but he has a 1-800-# and may be willing to talk with you about it. I know he has some special cage he has developed that he sends bees in that is supposed to make it easier to care for the bees and access them. 

What my huband Greg and I have done is take a plastic jar and put holes all around the sides of the jar and cut the center out of the plastic lid and fit it with a screen so that the bees get lots of ventilation. Inside, we put a cardboard tube (the inside of a toilet paper roll or half of one from a paper towel) that has a V cut in both sides to minimize the tube rolling around in the jar. We spray water into the jar and drip honey onto the screen every day. Incidentally, we got this method of maintaining the apitherapy bees from Amber Rose's book, Bee in Balance. 

When Greg is going to administer my stings, he sprays the bees with water which keeps them from flying. Then he takes long tweezers and picks them up by the head and stings me in the appropriate place. While he is getting each bee, I am applying ice to the area to be stung. 

When its time to get more bees from the hive, Greg has a large funnel he made that fits into the jar. After making sure he doesn't have the queen, he just shakes bees from a frame into the funnel and they fall right into the jar. 

Susan


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## Scott_K

*Reyah Stings me*



Velbert said:


> Reyah Carlson
> 1252 South Marshfield Road
> Bruner MO. 65620 417 278 0127
> 
> This woman Spoke at the Oklahoma State meeting this Saturday very nice woman and very interested in helping people with ailments, She her self has MS and is doing good because of of apitherapy.
> 
> http://www.reyahsbeesness.com
> 
> http://www.apitherapy.org


Reyah stings me and is very knowledgable(sp) I have MS and I am now living pain free after years of pain killers and muscle relaxers that make me a zombie. I now am able to actually have a life and enjoy myself. The reason BVT is not researched is like someone said follow the money trail. My meds were over 3000 a month that the Department of Veterans Affairs (aka you taxpayers) were paying for and i still had alot of pain. now I am pain free except for a bad day everyonce in awhile.


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## the kid

Im going to give it a go ,,,, my hands kill me so much I have a hard time sleeping or doing any thing with my hands <<<<< last year i got stung right on the finger and I had less pain ,,,,,, looking forward to the girls doing there thing on me <<<< now it will be a win win <<<<<< I never thought I would look forward to getting stung
the kid


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## inga

the kid said:


> Im going to give it a go ,,,, my hands kill me so much I have a hard time sleeping or doing any thing with my hands <<<<< last year i got stung right on the finger and I had less pain


Since you've already had some evidence of effectiveness, this sounds like a sure thing for you. 

What my mom did was to set a jar of bees on her hand to let them sting her. (Bees confined in a jar are more likely to sting than free-flying bees. ;-) ) She started with a few and added a few more each time, letting the bees sting her again when the swelling went down.


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## SERGE

Anyone know of a good reliable source where one can buy some raw Brazilian green propolis?
Thanks 
-Serge


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## zerbit

I am VERY interested in Apitherapy. I got my own hive two weeks ago and had my daughter's boyfriend administer a sting each to both of my hands (arthritis in both thumbs). I had a pretty strong reaction (cartoon thumbs for a couple of days), but nothing anaphylactic. The itching is incredible and I developed what almost looks like it could be chicken pox; some blistery looking places that oozed the same stuff you see in water blisters, some tinged red. The hands were 9 days ago and I had him sting me again on the top of my right foot (I have arthritic pain on my instep). I took Benadryl, which did nothing and leads me to think that my reaction is not necessarily allergic. My foot swelled up pretty good and developed the same suppurating areas. Once I read about posting photos, I'll upload some. 

I purchased "The Bible of Bee Venom Therapy" and am reading it now.


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## Beeophyte

Well if nobody has posted it yet, I find this apitherapy blog to be a good source of the latest news about the subject:

http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/

Regards,
Jon


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## zerbit

*Re: Reyah Stings me*

Self-inflicted apitherapy. While my reaction is pretty severe, I experienced no anaphylactic symptoms. My daughter's boyfriend who is a beekeeper, said his father has had the same reaction to stings with the resulting discoloration of his skin lasting up to a couple weeks. I am 9 days into my stings on my hands and the itching has stopped and I'm just waiting for it to clear up. http://photobucket.com/apitherapy


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## Beeophyte

*Re: Reyah Stings me*

Looks like typical sting symptoms, swollen and blotchy. Did they help with your malady Zerbit?


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## zerbit

*Re: Reyah Stings me*

I think they have improved my symptoms, but in reading about apitherapy, the usual recommended starting amount of stings is around 5. I'm pretty sure I'll have to work up to that amount. I believe the one on my foot has improved the pain on my instep, but the foot is so swollen, it's hard to tell. I have my next two sites picked out and will proceed based on how severe the foot sting becomes.


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## Bee Bliss

*Re: Reyah Stings me*

If I may offer some information for consideration.........

An apitherapist told us to spread the stings around during the sessions and to pick the larger body areas first. This was to avoid a smaller area swelling up too much. So, if our goal was to sting the hand or wrist, we should start with the arm and work down. When a person gets more used to stings they can graduate to the smaller areas. For example, we were told to avoid fingers, toes, hands, feet by stinging up farther and then working down as one builds up to the venom. She started us with a mini sting to the finger to treat fungus. ** Later on in the sessions a sting to the back of the hand resulted in that hand swelled up like a baseball mitt. Eventually 5 stings to the same hand produced almost no swelling. A mini-sting is where the stinger is in for only a brief amount of time.

We were told that eventually when doing multiple stings to an area, to keep the stings 2 inches apart except for certain instances. We were told that the spinal column could have stings placed 1 inch apart and scars could be 1 inch apart. Otherwise, such close proximity was not necessary.

If an area is iced first, the sting pain is usually greatly reduced or eliminated. There are some areas that are always somewhat painful. My palm heel is very tender. I was supposed to sting that area and others for carpal tunnel in the wrist.


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## zerbit

*Re: Reyah Stings me*

Omigosh, well maybe I'm just going at it backwards? I notice my foot didn't get nearly as bad as my hands. My hands were so itchy, I couldn't control myself at times and I'm sure that is why they look as bad as they do. They are healing up, though. My foot is still kind of cartoon-swollen and I won't try to wear anything other than flip flops for a few days, but it's not nearly as bad. I'm thinking each sting will get better and better. My family thinks I'm crazy, but it's not as bad as the pain from arthritis, so I'll take it and like it.


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## Bee Bliss

*Re: Reyah Stings me*

Just found this you tube video on apitherapy (Martha Stewart). Worth checking out. Also discussed are the benefits of bee bread, propolis, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=KgteVJqMlsc


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## zerbit

*Re: Reyah Stings me*

Bee Bliss, thanks for that link. I watched it and found it very interesting. My husband and I watch all the science-y shows and I first got the idea for apitherapy from a show we saw on the Discovery channel. I wasn't able to find anything out about it then, but there is a ton of info available now. Finding an apitherapist to work with is the tough part. My second sting to the top of my foot didn't get nearly as bad as my hands and the swelling has gone down considerably. I still have the water-blistery rash going on, but it hasn't spread. I am posting pictures on my photobucket account daily tracking my progress. http://photobucket.com/apitherapy


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## lenny bee

Yes there are a few of us out there that belong to the American Apitherapy Society.(check out there web site) I have been treating people with sting therapy for a number of years, with good success. We keep a low profile because the A.M.A . wants nothing to do with it. When they fiquir how to controll it and price it ,they will come around. It is very well accepted in other countries. If you drink alcohol, after being stung or take benadril it will mute the affects of the venom.


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## TRIMMAN

I just did some work for a doctor friend and i have bad wrist and he does apitherapy so he put 2 dots on my wrist and one by my thumb and said to place the stings on the dots it burned a little but 10 min later i was feeling a little relief so something is working


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## robherc

zerbit, I can tell you from personal experiences that:
#1) Those swellings on your photobucket acct. don't necessarily qualify as "cartoon swelling" lol, I used to end up swollen from the toenails to the calf from plantar stings, and as recently as 2 months ago ended up with a 10" wide swelling from a thigh sting. Not to discount your discomfort, I know it's quite irritating, just letting you know that there's not too much to worry about with those 
#2) Luckily, the swelling and itching DOES get less as you get stung more, and even more, the duration has started dropping off EXPONENTIALLY for me. My first few stings this year took 2-3 weeks to stop irritating me, but the last one I got (unintentionally) in the back of the neck was better in about 2.5 days.
#3) Benadryl should help you quite a bit, but to be truly effective, you have to take it a full 30mins BEFORE you get stung...takes it a while to take effect.

So far, all of my stings have been administered by simply wearing inadequate protection while handling bees, usually during cut-outs inch: , nonetheless, I am finally starting to notice _some_ improvement in the inflammations from my arthritic joints...especially when the weather turns against me. Hopefully your results will be as good, or better 


P.S. For the first several stings, it's highly advised to remove the stinger fairly quickly (15sec to 1 minute), so your body can build tolerance to the venom in gradually increasing doses...it helps lessen the discomfort quite a bit.


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## zerbit

lenny bee, I don't drink, but I'm not crazy about taking Benadryl either-it kind of puts me in a coma. LOL, but when you say it "mutes" the effects of the venom, do you mean it lessens the benefit or takes the edge off the pain/itch?


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## zerbit

Trimman, once my hands clear up, I'm nailing them again.  I felt a little relief also, but want to get my tolerance up to more stings. 

Thanks for the info!


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## zerbit

robherc,

You are not discount my "suffering" (how can I suffer when I willingly did this to myself? , it's GREAT to know that others have had worse reactions and it's not a reason to stop trying. Since my foot has not reacted as bad as my hands, I'd like to get stung a little earlier than a week and see what the next one does. Regarding the amount of venom, I found that out right away, my hands were both done at the same time, but the stinger was in the left one just a bit longer and the reaction was worse. This is *so* worth it if it will help my arthritis. 

Thanks for responding to my questions!


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## buzz abbott

Thanks to the recent posts I now know this thread exists and will add my vote to the yes i would like to see a forum crowd.

edit: Thanks to Barry for adding the forum (months ago). :applause: I should have checked the forum tab sooner.


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## Bee Bliss

Father-in-law had back pain and, although we offered to sting him, he elected to have a spinal fusion. Hmmm I would rather try the stings first. He knew we had undergone apitherapy but decided that wasn't for him. Ice does a lot to knock down the pain of a sting. 

When we first did the apitherapy on ourselves, I started coughing quite a bit and lungs felt bad. I called the apitherapist about that and said I might quit. She strongly insisted that I had something that the lungs were trying to get rid of (thanks to the bee venom) and not to quit. I only stuck with it because of her encouragement and I am glad I did. 

BVT is beneficial for many things. Check out beewelltherapy dot com for a partial list.

Zerbit: the Benedryl will both mute the good benefits of the venom and lessen the bad (itching, etc.). Try not to use it unless it is unbearable. Make yourself a rice bag (uncooked rice in material pouch). Heat it up in the microwave and apply to the area.


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## Bee Bliss

Oh, I forgot to mention to keep a chart or notebook of your stings................like date, total number of stings to date, total of stings for that session, specific location of the stings (don't just list hand, say right or left, etc.). Make any notes for that day.... of progress, etc. You won't remember!

Your book "The Bible of Bee Venom Therapy" sounds interesting. Another book worth reading is by Charles Mraz, "Health and the Honey Bee". Mr. Mraz stung people for over 60 years.


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## zerbit

Bee Bliss,

I have a rice bag already that I use. Good to know it will help with a sting. The sting isn't unbearable at all-I expected pain and I got it. I was surprised at how intense it was the first time, but I can definitely cowboy-up and do this repeatedly. I got an epi-pen ordered and will pick that up tomorrow. 

I have all kinds of stuff I'm going to try BVT on, like the numbness I get in my hands (carpal tunnel?), knee pain, I may even experiment on my knee replacement scar and see what that does. This really fascinates me.


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## robherc

You could always just work your hive at dusk after a cloudy, stormy day...I tried to steal some "birthday honey" from my bees last night & ended up with some unintentional BVT instead! 
The girls were soooo happy to see me that my glove was instantly covered in angry bees as soon as I touched any frame, and finally found a way to get up under my veil; lesson learned: if it was a bad day to mess with 'em, it'll be a bad night to mess with 'em...next time I'll hope for a sunshiny day! (BTW, anyone who's NOT in AHB territory, take this with a grain of salt, as my girls are "native" bees in heavy AHB country...go figure)


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## zerbit

robherc, I haven't even learned *how* to work my hive yet. Daughter's boyfriend is going to be my teacher. I'll take the occasional offhand sting and like it. LOL


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## lenny bee

For those who choose to sting, I use a 2" round copper tube, about 8" long and two end caps Place end cap on one end tight,, then fill with water. Place other end cap on and place in freezer. When your ready to sting, place the end of tube over area for a short time, then sting. You won"t feel the sting at first, but later is another story depending on how your body will react to venom. When people come to me, they have tried it all first ,to relive there pain,and when there ready to be stung, I can see the pain there living with and glad to help.I donot charge for doing this.


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## Bonnie Botkins

YES..That would be a great big YES to an apitherapy forum...share the knowledge...share the experiences.


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## robherc

BTW, for those who haven't found it yet, Barry DID create an apitherapy forum for us:
*Here's The Link*


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## alba_cristina

Hello! I am interested in what you said. I would like to learn apitherapy but I do not know anyone here in the Philippines practicing it. How can I get a study on it? I would like to help myself and and many other people experiencing health problems in my country. I would like to here from everyone who can read it. Thank you very much. Cristina


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## Velbert

Reposing thought this might help


Velbert said:


> Reyah Carlson
> 1252 South Marshfield Road
> Bruner MO. 65620 417 278 0127
> 
> This woman Spoke at the Oklahoma State meeting this Saturday very nice woman and very interested in helping people with ailments, She her self has MS and is doing good because of of apitherapy.
> 
> http://www.reyahsbeesness.com
> 
> http://www.apitherapy.org


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## jsams5059

Yes I have been trying to find info on why my bees that I catch have started dying in the jar within 4 hrs. when were living 2 or 3 days. I have been doing bee sting therapy for 9 months on myself and using the same method- quart size jar, twigs on bottom, then honey on damp toilet tissue then toilet paper rolls vertically. I now have my own bees but for 6 months I caught them myself. I first thought they were too cool in our basement so put them in the house in a dark area where temp is 72 degrees they still died within 4 hrs. I caught about 30 and barely had 10 that were still alive enough to sting me. Any suggestions?


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## ruthiesbees

The plastic containers I had been using used to hold some sugar with essential oils and the bees were dying in there within a couple of hours. Probably from the leftover fumes. I now use a canning jar that has a plastic screened top. You might try a different jar to see if there is some type of buildup in the jar or a different lid to see if it is a ventilation problem. Or maybe even change the honey source. By the way, I have found that a recently dead bee can still be used for BVT. 

I am curious, jsams5059, if you are using the bees during the winter. I read that winter bees have so little venom (because they are not feeding on pollen and nectar), that it's not worth doing. I just did a few stings this past weekend, and while they didn't swell as much as they usually do, it was better than nothing at all. I ended up releasing the remaining bees back into their hive in hopes that the warm weather we are having will encourage them to get out and feast on the mahonia in my yard. Then I'll catch them again and see if the venom is more potent.


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## Gypsi

my neck is killing me every time I go to the computer, but I think I will read on and wimp out and try to ergonomic my desk before I go get a beesting there. If I did, do I sting where the pain is?


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## ruthiesbees

Apitherapy isn't something you start without a lot of thought. For most of us, it's a last ditch effort to control the unrelenting pain of something. If you are not accustomed to getting stung, the first couple of times it can be pretty intense. I've had bees for months before I got my first sting on the hand. Didn't swell very much, but itched for about a week. A month later, I decided to treat my arthritic knee. 2 stings and my knee doubled in size, and itched like crazy. 3 weeks later I did the same knee again and the opposite hip. 24 hrs later, I thought I wasn't going to make it through that weekend, I was so swollen and itchy. (I now have an Epi-pen, just in case).

My understanding now from lots of reading, is it takes about 6 weeks to get over the horrible itching part. The stings still swell for about 3 days, but nothing like they did a few months ago. (There are lots of reasons for this, that hopefully soon I can write an article and post here). Depending on what you are treating, it may take a year for things to improve. 

So as to your question on "where to sting", yes, start where it hurts (unless that means an eye, ear, lip or other sensitive area. Those are all a No, never). After that, the nerves along the back are also key to helping alleviate the pain.


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## Bee Bliss

An apitherapist would tell people:

- sting where the pain is.
- sting along the appropriate area of the spine (on or along side)
- sting painful trigger areas along the nerve meridians (find them with your thumb pressing firmly, it hurts!)
- sting on the scars (about 1 inch apart eventually)


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## Bee Bliss

Ruthiesbees is correct about not ever stinging the eye or ear. The apitherapist had told us that. Test stings should be done to check for allergy.

She also told us to start out gradually in the larger fleshed areas and gradually go to the smaller areas like fingers, toes, hands and feet. We were told to build downward to that area. In other words, gradually stinging closer and closer to the small areas. 

If apitherapy is done as an apitherapist recommends (2 to 3x a week gradually increasing stings), the immunity starts at about 2 weeks. Chart them.


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## Gypsi

I am the allergic type. So I am not rushing, I have a lot of pain not too far from my right ear, neck above collarbone extending toward center of base of skull, and that is just too close for comfort to treat I think. I have taken several stings since I started keeping bees almost 3 years ago, but I have neither a doctor nor an epi pen, so I'm thinking neck brace for my desk or fix the ergonomics of it would be better. I do have a lot of aches in knees and elbows today but I really think it is weather for now... Still I was curious, and if I was in the condition of some people on this thread AND had an epi pen, i would certainly give it a try.

Thank you for the information everyone


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