# Just hived my packages



## NewtownBee (Jan 11, 2007)

Well, it's 34 degrees here, and I just hived my two packages which came up from Georgia. It's cold & sunny; I'm hoping they do okay with the baggie feeders of 1:1 syrup. I only got stung twice, and my kids are begging to help me with the next round of bee-excitement. I'm a little stressed about the kids/dog/husband getting stung, but I suppose that will pass.
We could really use a little spring up here. This freezing nonsense in April is really getting old. I was planning on checking the hives in a week...does that sound about right?
Sam


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Hi Sam - 
Congrats on the sucessful install! 
They may go through that feed pretty quickly - I'd check it in 2 or 3 days - just from the top and replace it if necessary. The weather should be warmer then. 
And yes, wait a week to pull frames and see if the queen is out and laying.
Happy Beeking!
-Erin


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## berkshire bee (Jan 28, 2007)

Sam,Great job! I'm picking up 2 packages on saturday and it's snowing here in MASS today. I usually do a first check in three days to see if the queen is out and check on food supply


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

Looks like you did a good job, Sam. It seems like a "baggie" is the best way to provide that syrup when it's cool like this; it stays warm for the bees and I am sure they like that better. How did you provide the space for the baggie?


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## NewtownBee (Jan 11, 2007)

I used an empty medium for the space for the baggie. It was a fairly last minute/thrown together box, but it's certainly a lot eaier to build a box when my five year old isn't helping me. I hope the baggie works well...I just wasn't in the mood to buy a hive-top feeder (Yet another start-up expense) when it seemed like a baggie would work well.
Any opinions on how long I'm likely to have to feed for?
Thanks,
Sam


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## Ruben (Feb 11, 2006)

Your the first person I have heard of getting stung while installing a package.


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## France (Apr 5, 2007)

Sorry for jumping in, but... 
Don't know how cold is at your place, but best way to feed a "baggie" is right under the inner cover. 
One can slice a piece of pine board about 1.5 inches wide and nail it together in-to a frame, the size of a hive. This is than positioned under the inner cover and provides plenty of room. 
An empty super is OK, except that it leaves the whole hive exposed. The heat escapes in to empty hive and thus leaves the bees in the cold...

Regards,
France


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

I have only 3 years "recent" experience with keeping bees. I have not fed my bees with a baggie. In your area I would think you need to keep feeding until the end of April at least.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

The empty box will not hurt your start up with this package.
The bees do not heat the hive or hive space. They generate heat to warm and maintain the temperature for the space they occupy. Within a few inches of the cluster the temperature is basically ambient.
I set all of my hives up with an empty box on top in the fall and they winter that way. Our temps can go down to the -20 to -30F range.
I have been feed light syrup for about a month now.

www.mountaincampfarm.com/wst_page5.php?RowIdx=0&ID2=BjZ0I4


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## John Gesner (Dec 17, 2005)

I've never used baggie feeders, but if you read this http://www.beesource.com/eob/baggie.htm you may want to get a different feeder.

I use bucket feeders and after the recent warm spell got the bees moving, I had to revert to my winterized tactic of reversing the inners and putting bucket feeders on for this cold spell.

Did you release your queens or are they still in the cage?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The empty box will not hurt your start up with this package.

The first problem is heat. I've turned many a struggling colony around overnight by reducing the space.

The second is what will they do with empty space? If you let them they may move up there and build comb off the inner cover.


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## blammer (Jul 28, 2006)

I installed my package this Sat. It was about 50 degrees in the day and got to 25 that night.

Here is a pic of the in the hive feeders I put in. When I checked them on Sunday they didn't take much, because I sprayed the comb (already drawn out) very heavily with sugar water so they could get right to it.

then Monday, today I checked on them and the jars were both empty. So I refilled and will be back tomorrow to check.









Here is a pic of my son spraying the comb very dilligently and very thouroughly.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

blammer: I was wondering when you were going to report in! I guess your weather turned out to be pretty good after all. Nice photos!


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## blammer (Jul 28, 2006)

thanks!

the grandparents came over on Thur, stayed till today (tue) had a downstairs project that was the main goal. Building a new bathroom complete with shower, sink, commode, etc from scratch. Then the bees on Sat, so my time was BUSY (busy as a bee hahahaha). Just now checking threads. I even missed my clubs monthly meeting! Rats...

Checked on the bees today and found what looked to me like a robbing situation going on. The extreme cold the last two to three night killed off all the buds and flowers. The hive approx 300 yards away or more, I suspect was robbing from inside my hive feeders. I had reduced the entrance from the start to about 1 to 2 inches the day before. I stuffed some grass in the entrance to stop the frenzy. checked in an hour and things had settled down and the grass was being removed by the bees.

Photoed some bees bringing in pollen but not much.

Tomorrow I'll check to see if queen is released. Here is a photo of the entrance.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Beekeeping/DSCN5509.jpg

What is up with the string of bees on the side of the jar?
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Beekeeping/DSCN5516.jpg


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## blammer (Jul 28, 2006)

rats, got the order of the pics wrong....


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

"Classico Traditional Sauce"? Ooooh! Yuk! I like Paul Newmans myself, LOL. This is only me chatting with 3 years recent beekeeping experience but I wouldn't worry too much about robbing now. When the temps. are above 50 I like to see the bees "busy" at the entrances bringing in pollen and whatever. Did you "accidentally" post on this thread? Doesn't matter.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

>The empty box will not hurt your start up with this package.

-The first problem is heat. I've turned many a struggling colony around overnight by reducing the space.

I have hives that thrive all winter with an empty box on. The critical concern is feeding them in cold weather. Without food that they can access they aren’t going to generate any heat. That will kill them faster than extra space in the hive.

-The second is what will they do with empty space? If you let them they may move up there and build comb off the inner cover.

We are talking about getting a package started with temps that will be for the next few weeks from the 20’s to 50’s for highs. This is not the height of the season quite yet. If you leave the empty box on for a month or more, they are going to start building comb from the top bars up. This can easily be cleaned up and the box can be removed when they no longer need the feed.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

With another foot of snow falling, and temps not looking better till the end of next week, you will need to check and add more feed.

They will need your feed to live off of till they are able to forage consistantly enough to start building their own stores.


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## NewtownBee (Jan 11, 2007)

*Temps about 45 today*

It's raining today and only 45, but I think I need to add more syrup today anyway. My thought was to not really check on the queen and all because it's so cold, but just to add more feed and do a real check on the hive in a few days when it's about 50. Opinions?


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Have all of your stuff ready and just work quickly to add your feeder baggie.
You may want to smoke them just a little to get them down below the top bars. Keep the feed on them as that is what will keep them going till they can forage. If you have any pollen substitute, you could sprinkle some on the top bars for them.

I would not check the queen yet. I would way a little longer temps next week shoul dbe better for you down there.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Hi there
I have to agree with MB. there is a lot of heat lost on empty deep on top. I use sugar feeding only as emergency on very cold temps and use 2 inch rim instead of a deep, the same rim I use when treat with FA.
I use the baggie 1 gallon feeder too, instead of cutting it in two tree places, I make a 2-3 inch hole with scissors, put two sticks crossed inside, still use 2 inch rim and refill the baggie next time through the hole. Works great.

Hope we will have spring soon here in CT Newtown Bee. Keep feeding if needed and don't rush to see the queen, she is there.

Gilman


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## LEAD PIPE (May 22, 2005)

Where did you buy a package so early in Stamford?
Thanks


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Let’s look at the thermodynamic properties of the cluster, hive components, and hive configuration.

www.beesource.com/pov/usda/thermology/techbulletin1429.htm

Does the cluster heat the hive as a whole? – NO, the cluster heats only the actual space they occupy. They then form an insulation layer of bees at the clusters edge to conserve the heat produced within the clusters center. 

Does the sidewall of a hive body provide significant insulation? – NO less than R 0.75

Does the inner cover / outer cover assembly provide significant insulation? – NO less than R 1.5 (est.)

R value of Air space in a deep box, about R 2.71 ( R1.01 per 3.5”)

www.hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/tables/rvalue.html

What is the temperature within inches of the cluster’s edge? Basically ambient. 
www.beesource.com/pov/usda/thermology/fig5.htm

www.beesource.com/pov/usda/thermology/fig2.htm

So what is the vertical energy loss difference between having the inner / outer cover with it’s R 1.5, an 2” rim (R 0.628) and the inner /outer cover – total R 2.128, and the empty deep R2.71 plus the inner/outer total: R 4.21.

Now, lets look at the energy added to the system with the additional surface area of a hive body sitting in the sun and transferring that heat to the inside of the hive. This allows a cluster to move and freely fee with ambient temperatures in the 20’s on a sunny day. This added solar gain allows the cluster to feed freely, adding additional stored chemical energy to the system, which the cluster will use to generate the heat that is required to keep them going.

As I have said, ALL of my hives have been set up with an empty box on top and wintered this way for 7 or more years. I use the empty box in the fall, early & late winter, and early spring to feed syrup / pollen substitute. I place granular sugar on for the middle of winter for additional stores and moisture absorption.

www.mountaincampfarm.com/wst_page5.php?RowIdx=0&ID2=BjZ0I4

Now, those with top entrances and / or upper ventilation have added thermal cycling to the mix.

So would you lose more heat / warm through an upper entrance or with upper dead air space?


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

I used MountainCamp's method of overwintering the 7 hives I tend here in southern Vt. and had NO losses,.......they're all doing very well, some better than others and will be making splits with the strong ones sometime towards the end of the month, depending on the weather. I used empty medium boxes over the upper chambers, and wrapped them with BetterBee's hivewrap, making a hole through the plastic to access the 3/4" holes in the center (south facing) of the upper boxes. I also put a piece of 1" polystyrene insulation board within the rim of the inner cover (atop the empty medium), and routed out a 5/8" airflow channel on it's underside that went from the oval opening in the inner cover out to the notch in the inner cover's rim,...for ventiation. I don't know if that was necessary, but they seemed to do well with no apparent accumulation of moisture in the upper box.

I liked that I could see just where the cluster was and could feed directly over them with syrup jars, and place granulated sugar on paper and place pollen patties near the jars starting in Feb. I think the advantages of direct access through the empty boxes outweighs the loss , if any , of heat. I made my visits opening the boxes brief & concise, doing necessary feeding & checking every week throughout the winter,.....being carefull to not keep lids off long.

With all the hives,...the clusters moved to the warmer, southern sides, and sometimes I would even find them gathered tightly up the southern sides of that empty upper chamber,...no doubt soaking up the warmth of solar gain from the hivewrap.

I like this method of using an empty chamber for feeding with sugar, syrup , & patties......and will be using it again next winter....


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## Troutsqueezer (May 17, 2005)

*What? Another sunny day?*

You could move to California. Much of this becomes moot. Rub rub...


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Denny, glad it worked for you and good luck with your splits.

I like the flexability and access it provides. I also like the granular sugar's moisture absorption.

I had a window yesterday and made (2) nucs up. It may be pushing the envelope this year, but we will see. The (2) hives that I used had 8 frames of brood each in the upper box. With Russian lineage and no flying time to speak of for pollen collection this year, I was happy with the strength.

I will be making more splits this weekend or next if we get the weather window, we will see. Snow and sleet today.

Good luck.


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## NewtownBee (Jan 11, 2007)

*Packages in Stamford*

I got my packages from Andrew Cote, who's a 4th generation (at least) beek who lives in Norwalk, CT. His website is cthoney.com, and he's been very helpful with all my questions (and there have been plenty!).
His honey is for sale at Wild Oats in Westport, among other places.


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

MountainCamp said:


> Denny, glad it worked for you and good luck with your splits.
> 
> I like the flexability and access it provides. I also like the granular sugar's moisture absorption.
> 
> ...



Thanks MountainCamp....

...and I hope you have success with your early nucs. Sounds like your Russians have come through strong. Do you think there's good likelyhood there will be enough mature drones for the queens to mate? That would be my concern.
I noticed the stronger hives were bringing in an abundance of light grayish /green colored pollen yesterday,...temps were in the low 50s. I don't think the red maples have even started to bloom,...just snowdrops & crocus.

Good luck with the nucs,.....they should do well if the queens can mate successfully.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

When I went through the (2) hives here there was a fair amount of capped drone brood. 

My plans are to move the early nucs down to Catskill where I have a yard as well. They are 1,000 feet lower and usually at least a week ahead of here.

Our swarm season starts here the latter part of May, so there aew drones before then.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Let’s look at the thermodynamic properties of the cluster, hive components, and hive configuration.

Or we could put a handfull of bees in a mating nuc and watch them succeed and put the same number in a ten frame deep and watch them fail. This works most anytime you'd care to try the experiment, but ESPECIALLY in a chilly spring.

After proving that it DOES matter, we could try to see at what POINT does it not matter enough for us to care...

In my experience I can get a package built up noticeably more quickly in a five frame medium nuc than a ten frame deep box, let alone a ten frame deep box with an empty ten frame deep box on top of that.

As Walt Wright says, you put a baby in a crib in a small cozy 70 F room it will be much warmer than in the middle of a 70 F gynamsium. That's just reality.

It's easy enough to illustrate with an unheated tent as well. You will be much warmer in a small tent than a large tent. Even if you are NOT trying to heat the tent.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

*For Walt*

Sorry to keep using bandwidth, all, this is the only way I know of to monitor threads for Walt.

Roy


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

*package*



Ruben said:


> Your the first person I have heard of getting stung while installing a package.



I got stung 2x installing mine April 1st, but it was me who placed my fingers ontop of the girls on accident, while fumbling and dropping the queen cage on the ground. 

I have a deep on mine with thick pink foam insulation covering the medium with a hole cut into for the syrup jar. Lost about 50 bees so far ; they have only had 3 flying days in 12, and made temps as low as 18. They laughed at my homemade pollen subsititue yesterday , and were bringing in bright orange stuff.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Anyone is more than welcome to sit in a small tent without food and I will sit in my large tent eating and generating heat. I think that I will last longer.

If a baby is sitting in a small room or a large room and the air and surroundings are at 70F, there is not difference. As long as you are both in the crib with a blanket or not. Feel good surroundings don’t mean anything. But, don’t feed the baby, and it will feel very cold – especially to the touch.

Now, we can get into the radiant heat, heat radiation, convention, conduction, energy balancing, etc. but I don’t have that much time nor desire.
 
Now let’s look at the facts as we have them.

1) We have a package of bees in full hive boxes, not a mating nuc.

2) We have a package of bees that doesn’t have stores. 

3) We have a package of bees that need to be feed.

With cold temperatures, they need to be feed. So, what will work?
Outside open feeding? No
Hive Top Feeder? No
Entrance Feeders? No
Food placed on top of the inner cover? Doubtful
Division Board / Frame Feeder? Maybe, but I did not see that we had one. If anyone wants (3) there yours, I don’t like them.
Food placed on the top bars? Yes, whether it is a feeder baggie, inverted jars / buckets, or fondant, granular sugar. Take your choice.

Since it is the stored energy contained within the food placed in the empty medium above the cluster that will allow the cluster (package) to generate the heat required to survive. I would much rather have a package in a deep box with an empty box above them with food, then in a mating nuc box without stores.

Now we could get into the energy balance of this system, and compare it to the energy balance of the handful of bees in a mating nuc with no food, but since we don’t have a mating nuc in our problem, why bother.

Once again, I will go out and tell my bees to give it up, they should not have survived the winter, they should not be strong enough to split already with the weather and temperatures that we have. Denny, please go talk to your bees as well.


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## YooperBee (Sep 14, 2006)

I lost one colony in April during that nasty blast (from Alberta I think) that hit us April 3rd, the day before we acquired our 4 packages. The colony had made it through March, but was dwindling (about 8" over two frame faces). I had plenty of feed there for them in a top feeder (miller type) but I don't think they could afford (the heat losses) in the cold to go up to the feed (which was probably very cool). It was so cold, I didn't want to open the hive, I just couldn't think of anything other bringing the hive home into the basement. That wasn't very do-able either. In hindsight, granular sugar on top bars or a small baggie feeder may have been the answer. The poor things starved with over a gallon of food 3/4 inch above them. I felt bad.

The weather here has finally turned warmer and the girls are bringing home their own food now, I suspect from the maples. I have one weak hive that I (in depseration) transferred about 1000 bees into using newspaper introduction method. I checked after 24 hours, found them clustered at the top of the deep super I had placed atop the existing hive. I ripped the soggy newspaper in a few spots and then removed the deep, replacing it with a 1-1/2 inch spacer. I hope that works better. I figure, more bees = warmer cluster, which equals increased feeding and brood rearing capacity.

Any thoughts on this...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Anyone is more than welcome to sit in a small tent without food and I will sit in my large tent eating and generating heat. I think that I will last longer.

How about I sit in my small tent with food?


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