# Queen rearing question.....



## Richard P (Feb 12, 2016)

I have set out a few grafted racks over the last 10 days, and there is little to no activity on my cells. 5 cells out of like 80. Nectar is on heavy, not sure if this has an impact on them attending the cups. I feel pretty good on the grafts, I put the racks in for 2 days for them to clean before I grafted. Is it a bad time to graft, or am I just not worth a flip with it, LOLOL. Thanks


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

Not so sure you should graft during a full flow, but not an expert. I know there are a lot of factors, temp, humidity, amount of nursing bees available. Were the eggs grafted at instar day 1-3. Like I said a lot of factors, but maybe the bees only liked those 5. 80 seems like a lot to start in one finishing colony.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

80 cells in one starter? How big is your starter?

This is your first year? Starting with packages...?


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## Richard P (Feb 12, 2016)

No. I had them in 3 seperate colonies. My 1st year yes, not in packages established hives for 2 frames of cell cups, and the 3rd I put in an exploding nuc I got a few weeks ago. put racks in between frames of brood, honey, and brushed a bunch of nurse bees when I put the cell racks in. used 4ish day old larvea. A month plus ago before flow, I did better, 5 out of 15.


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

I think usually to make your best queens you need to seclude your queen on a frame of clean foundation for 24 hrs and then graft those cells on day one or two (instar). Install the frames of cells in your swarm box with 5lbs of nurse bees in a dark room for 24hrs and then into your finishing colonies. 4 day old larva seems a little long.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

4 day old larva is too old. Unless you mean 4 days from egg lay. The larva should be almost invisible.



The larva on each side of that egg in that picture are what I've been trying to graft. I'm not always getting them exactly that young, but as close to that as possible. The other larva in the picture are much too old.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

This thread is well worth the read, and contains much better pictures than I have.

Including this one, from member deknow:


deknow said:


> ...and this is getting the grafting tool under the larva:



http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?322974-Photos-of-larvae-at-the-quot-right-stage


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## Richard P (Feb 12, 2016)

They were all pretty much that tiny. Just about the size of the cup on the german tool. I see that you also used the plastic jzbz cups. The last time we made some queens, we used the wax cups. I was thinking that may have been my issue on this attempt. Do you think the wide open nectar flow has any influence here, and also on egg laying?


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## Richard P (Feb 12, 2016)

Great pic by the way


jwcarlson said:


> This thread is well worth the read, and contains much better pictures than I have.
> 
> Including this one, from member deknow:
> 
> ...


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Richard P said:


> Great pic by the way


Credit for that goes to deknow, not me. I just dug up the thread. I won't speculate as to when is the best time to raise queens for you, but regardless of flow if you're going getting 5 of 80 grafts to take... something is wrong outside of the flow. Personally, I'd say the more resources coming into the hive the better when raising queens. Ample nectar and pollen (or supplemental feed if those are scarce). 
Take what I'm saying with a grain of salt... I failed miserably last year grafting. Two grafts this year with 75 and 85% take on them respectively. 

Have you considered placing a frame of eggs in the builder and seeing if they draw emergency cells? We're talking about a queenless starter right?


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

jwcarlson said:


> Credit for that goes to deknow, not me. I just dug up the thread. I won't speculate as to when is the best time to raise queens for you, but regardless of flow if you're going getting 5 of 80 grafts to take... something is wrong outside of the flow. Personally, I'd say the more resources coming into the hive the better when raising queens. Ample nectar and pollen (or supplemental feed if those are scarce).
> Take what I'm saying with a grain of salt... I failed miserably last year grafting. Two grafts this year with 75 and 85% take on them respectively.
> 
> Have you considered placing a frame of eggs in the builder and seeing if they draw emergency cells? We're talking about a queenless starter right?



I'm going to speculate he is working with a queen right starter/finisher or a queenless starter/finisher that didn't have frames of worker larvae placed there ahead of time. Anyone can graft. Raising queens is alot about getting things right after the graft. Sometimes even when things are set up for success the weather completely mess you up. But 5 of 80 means things are not optimally set up even if the weather doesnt cooperate.


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## Richard P (Feb 12, 2016)

Hey BBB. I am working with QR hives. I had a frame of larvea with capped brood on one side of the cell frame, and another on the other side with honey on it as well. I had my non grafted cell rack in for 48 hrs prior to grafting. Had an exluder under box with grafts, shook nurse bees in when put the graftless frame in. I am thinking maybe I should have re shook some nurse bees from bottom box again when I put the grafts in. I get it is " user error", but was surprised it has worked before, and this was a disaster. Back at it again. I will make this happen hopefully. Gonna tryand set up another empty cell frame today to get cleaned up, and try and re graft Sun. after Church I guess. The few that did take were in 2 hives, the other hive did nothing. That will be the one I work on again now... I really appraciate all the feed back, and respect the knowledge. My day will come hopefully sooner than later, LOL. I need the queens...


BigBlackBirds said:


> I'm going to speculate he is working with a queen right starter/finisher or a queenless starter/finisher that didn't have frames of worker larvae placed there ahead of time. Anyone can graft. Raising queens is alot about getting things right after the graft. Sometimes even when things are set up for success the weather completely mess you up. But 5 of 80 means things are not optimally set up even if the weather doesnt cooperate.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I don't mean to be a dumb dumb, but are you saying that you're using a queen right colony as your cell starter?


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

A queen right starter has no reason to start very many queen cells. Try queenless for your starter and they will build them out under the emergency impulse


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## Richard P (Feb 12, 2016)

The dumb dumb is obviously for me in this regard I assume because yes, I am using a QR hive, and have before with some better success then this last attempt. I have the queen in bottom box with excluder between it, and the top box where I had m rack. . Many use queen less, some use QR, some picket the queen between 2 frames to insure the dating of the larvea, and some pull a queen from a strong hive, wait 4 days, and graft in it queen less,pull the successful cells, incubate, and then return the queen to the original hive. There are so so many methods that I have seen and watched, I can get dizzy. I guess I will have to pull a queen from a good hive and try it queenless to try and make some queens. I have 4 queen less hives I am trying to make em for, and need to split 4 hives. Thus the attempts.


jwcarlson said:


> I don't mean to be a dumb dumb, but are you saying that you're using a queen right colony as your cell starter?


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## Richard P (Feb 12, 2016)

I will try this way next week with hopes of it playing out for me. I have had others graft this way, and have done well. I have made some this way too. but your suggestion will be my next attemp, makes logical sense, which many times in my limited experience is never the same twice, LOLOL.... I apprteciate all the help.... Thanks


cheryl1 said:


> A queen right starter has no reason to start very many queen cells. Try queenless for your starter and they will build them out under the emergency impulse


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Watch this at least twice before your next queen rearing attempt. I wouldn't have known a strong colony (let alone one strong enough to start a bunch of queen cells) during my first year if it came up and slapped me in the face. Good luck and please let us know how it goes! 

Also, this guide is great:
http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners/

I would suggest, however, that a much more surefire way to get queens for your queenless colonies would be to either purchase some mated ones or give them each a frame of brood containing eggs/young larva and letting them raise their own (or better yet, combine all four colonies and let the larger pool of bees raise 6-8 really nice cells and then divide them back up once they're capped and ready to emerge). Grafting complicates matters (as you've noticed) and can delay delay delay until you end up with not only queenless colonies, but colonies of bees too old and with laying workers.


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## Richard P (Feb 12, 2016)

Thanks jw. I will watch it, and I do have this other article in my favs, but obviously went a different direction in my attempts. I will try the queenless way, and keep you in the loop. Good or bad, LOL....


jwcarlson said:


> Watch this at least twice before your next queen rearing attempt. I wouldn't have known a strong colony (let alone one strong enough to start a bunch of queen cells) during my first year if it came up and slapped me in the face. Good luck and please let us know how it goes!
> 
> Also, this guide is great:
> http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners/
> ...


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Michael Palmer knows what he's doing for sure. I've only grafted once, but I got 80% take. Make big hive queenless, 4 days later check for cells, insert grafts, leave them a cell when you distribute capped cells to mating nucs. That was my method. Since I've only done it once I guess you could say I use that method 100% of the time!


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