# Alternative Design



## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Folks,
I am considering keeping bees for polination and honey, and I think that top bar hive is the method that I would want to use. But I cannot help but realize the economics of the Langstroth type wired frames and spining frames to harvest honey, rather than harvest wax/honey mixture. 

Can the top bar hives be built in a squarer (rather than trapezoid) fashion so that regular frames can be used and harvested? I think wasting honey to have bees built wax each and every time is pointless for someone not wanting wax. Therefore I think that returning empty combed frames to the tob bar seem like an answer to me. I guess I envision that hive would look like a 20 frame long brood box, with 5 frame suppers on each side, separated by two queen excluders and 10 brood frames in the middle. Has that ever been done successfully?

The second question is, and I am getting conflicting answers on this one, can bees reuse the wax that comes as a waste product of harvesting honey? When you cut off the comb tops to spin honey, can you collect that wax and give it back to bees. That way they use that material to build comb, rather than convert honey to make it. I read somewhere that sometimes bees will rob the wax off the frame foundation to build up comb on another frame, so it seems reasonable that they would reuse the comb tops after harvesting.

Aram


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## Duboisi (Oct 7, 2009)

I am a fresh beekeeper who also think along the same lines.

I have just built a hive similar to what you are describing. I want to be able to use both TB's and frames. I plan on putting thinner top-bars over the frames to avoid openings on the top.

It should also be possible to super such a hive.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Can you post some photos by any chance?


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

with a tanzanian top bar hive, it is square rather than angled on the sides. Of course, there are Warre vertical top bar hives as well which are square boxes too.

there are extractors that come with baskets inside them which allow for top bar combs to be used in a modern extractor and keep the comb to put back in the hive if you so wish.

Big Bear


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

Aram,

This topic has been discussed numerous times here, and it was concluded in this thread (http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243877) that It takes 2-4lbs of honey to produce 1lb of wax, or 2-4lbs of honey to produce enough comb to hold 22lbs of honey!

With the benefits of crush and strain (removal of old, contaminated comb, extra wax, simplicity), I think it's a very small price(?) to pay for what I've found to be healthier colonies. 

I also do not recommend putting the brood in the center with honey on both sides. It just leads to rearranging the honey toward winter, or starvation of your colonies. Start your colony on one end and let them store their surplus on the other. I see no need for queen excluders. 

Cheers,
Matt


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## Aram (May 9, 2006)

Welcome to the forum Aram,
Now, where did I hear that name before? 
As mentioned before there are vertical walled top bar hives, they are referred to as Tanzanian Top Bar Hives (TTBH.) Top bar hives have (surprise  )... top bars. What you are describing is a Long Hive some people here keep them too. If you start a topic with Long Hive in the title, here or in the main forum, those people be able to offer some advice. 
After trying different designs I now build all my hives to accept 19" top bars. That way I can sell nucs to people who use Langs. You could build a couple of boxes that accept 20 frames and start one with frames and one with top bars and see which you like best.
I am partial to Top Bar Hives but for your goals, honey production and pollination, it's hard to argue with the Lang design. That's why they are so popular.
Do you intend to pollinate just your crops or are these hives meant to be moved around?
If I planned to move the hives around I would go with Langs. The advantage of TBH's is that there is no heavy lifting, until you have to move the whole hive at once, that is.
On second question, the bees have no use for the wax as far as I know. They will chew the wax comb in the hive to reorganize it but that's about it. If you have no use for it someone you know will. 1oz. wax bars sell for about $1 at a farmstand. People use it for soaps, creams, etc. 
Good luck and keep us posted.
Aram


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

You can totally put frames in a long hive; just build it to leave beespace around your frame dimensions. And I've not seen bees re-use wax that's put back in the hive... make candles or lip balm, or sell it.


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## Duboisi (Oct 7, 2009)

I took some poor pictures, but got "invalid file" when trying to upload it.

But here is a short movie made of a person with a long-hive.

I even found some drawings. I guess it was theese that inspired me in the first place. I have been reading a lot on the sites of Michael Bush and the Beewrangler(Dennis Murrell). 
They both talk about using long hives that fit ordinary frames and can be supered.

Guess long-lang is a nice name for such a hive.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Wow, what a wealth of information and I am so grateful for how helpfull you all are. Let me go through this and try to comprehend it all. Thank you so much.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

I built a long hive this year from the plans on dennis Murrel's website. I didn't have an oppoortunity to populate it with bees but I have a nuc earmarked for it for next year. Basically it is the equivilent of two Lang 10-frame deeps side by side. Rather than surround 10 frames of brood with q. excluders and honey frames as you mentioned, here in Maine, I will use the entire box as brood chamber and add medium supers above as the season progresses.

Wayne


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Can the top bar hives be built in a squarer (rather than trapezoid) fashion so that regular frames can be used and harvested?

http://bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm
http://bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm#ttbh

> I think wasting honey to have bees built wax each and every time is pointless for someone not wanting wax. Therefore I think that returning empty combed frames to the tob bar seem like an answer to me.

http://bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm#combhoney
"...time after time I have seen novice beekeepers, as soon as they had built their apiaries up to a half dozen or so hives, begin to look around for an extractor. It is as if one were to establish a small garden by the kitchen door, and then at once begin looking for a tractor to till it with. Unless then, you have, or plan eventually to have, perhaps fifty or more colonies of bees, you should try to resist looking in bee catalogs at the extractors and other enchanting and tempting tools that are offered and instead look with renewed fondness at your little pocket knife, so symbolic of the simplicity that is the mark of every truly good life." --Richard Taylor, The Comb Honey Book

> I guess I envision that hive would look like a 20 frame long brood box, with 5 frame suppers on each side, separated by two queen excluders and 10 brood frames in the middle. Has that ever been done successfully?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. But you can super a long hive if you do it carefully and strategically...

http://bushfarms.com/images/LongHiveSupered.JPG

>The second question is, and I am getting conflicting answers on this one, can bees reuse the wax that comes as a waste product of harvesting honey?

No.

> When you cut off the comb tops to spin honey, can you collect that wax and give it back to bees.

They will pick out the honey and they may use some infintesimal amount, and the rest will get full of wax moths...

> That way they use that material to build comb, rather than convert honey to make it.

Obviously bees didn't read the books. They don't think it's worth the trouble.

> I read somewhere that sometimes bees will rob the wax off the frame foundation to build up comb on another frame

Sometimes, but not generally.

> so it seems reasonable that they would reuse the comb tops after harvesting.

It does seem reasonable if you believe all of the stories about the cost of making wax... but they don't, so bees disagree... 

http://bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm#expenseofwax


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've done plenty of both extracting and crush and strain. If you set up a double bucket strainer, I see no difference in the amount of work or the amount of mess. The 50 hive statement is from Richard Taylor. I'd probably set the number lower, but I wouldn't (and for 28 years didn't) buy one for between two to seven hives which is what most hobbyists have.


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## Buzzsaw2012 (Feb 1, 2012)

Duboisi said:


> I took some poor pictures, but got "invalid file" when trying to upload it.
> 
> But here is a short movie made of a person with a long-hive.
> 
> ...


very interesting , thanks for the links


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