# USDA Honey House



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm not of commercial size - and don't have a dedicated honey house, but 220 volts is essentially just (2) 110 volt circuits that are opposite phase from each other. In any structure with more than just a single circuit breaker it makes sense to bring 220 volts into the building, even if you then split that up into 2 (or more) separate 110 volt circuits at the building's electrical panel.

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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Joel said:


> Thought it might be smart to get the regs for USDA approval before leasing as that's in the next phase plan. Searched the USDA site and got 99 pages with 50 per page, not one seems to apply or maybe I just missed it.


if you ever find what is required by the Fed. govt, could you please post where you found it, I never could find it, I have heard references to some blue book, but no one I know has ever seen it.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

most hot waters need 220 and you need it for future equip. as far as I know usda has nothing to do with it. the states make any health requirements.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Joel, you aren't specifying whether this facility is just for packing or a dual purpose extracting/packing facility. In either scenario I think it would be a mistake to set up any large honey processing facility without the availability of 220. 3 phase would be even better. A lot of equipment can be wired for either but will run cooler on 220. I would factor in the price of upgrading the electrical service as part of any decision making process.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Up here producer graders run under different regulations than packing for retail (official name eludes me).

Have you already run under these type of regulations?


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Forget the USDA. The FDA has taken over this and they are starting to get aggressive about compliance with their registration .


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

When we built our honey house last summer, we tried to get information. I called and talked to different people, visited some, and no one seemed to know anything. We decided we would set ours up like you would a commercial kitchen.

Lights had to be covered and we put in a bathroom with a sink. We have a hot water heater and a large 3 tub stainless sink that I will hook up this summer.

We figured at some point, someone is going to start aggressively inspecting honey houses, and we didn't want to be pulling things out and replacing them.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Last I heard Homeland Security was inspecting honey houses as well... it beats me why...


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

DHS is scared beekeepers are harboring criminals like terrorists and illegals. :lpf:

Seriously I think it's to check to ensure our national food supply is being properly handled.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Seriously I think it's to check to ensure our national food supply is being properly handled.

Which is the FDA's job... and apparently the USDA's job, and the local health department's job...


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## beegeorge (Apr 19, 2012)

here are two links that may get you what you need in SC


http://agriculture.sc.gov/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Food-Processor-Guidelines-Angie1.pdf


http://agriculture.sc.gov/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Honey-Guidance.pdf


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I support Mr. Lyon. Three phase is nice, more equipment is available in three phase, and most motors can be run variable speed with an inverter. It is possible to get 110 input, 220 3 phase output inverters, but with very limited H.P. We picked up an old 3 hp. 3 phase Powermatic wood planer, and run it on a 220 inverter. It can run all day, not like a benchtop model. 

Decide what you want to do, and then choose wisely.

Crazy Roland


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

some rural areas don't have 3 phase. something to check first. usually two wires side by side with a third above in the middle.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

At least in Mass, the moment you are packing any honey that isn't from your own hives OR do anything beyond putting pure honey in jars (adding herbs or flavoring) you need a fully equipped food production facility...I think the same is true if you are wholesaling out of state (even if it is your own honey from your own bees.

3 bay stainless sink, handwashing sink, slop sink, copper plumbing to the water main, grease trap, sealed floors, washable walls, bathroom sink with hot water...to start with.

Even within our state, different towns have different interpretations. I suggest working with your local health dept....if you are not cooking you won't need a hood.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Covered lighting is also universally required. 
Inspectors do not like walking into a production facility from an outside door. I would be wise to build a small room off your door. It is very usefull anyway. Bathroom facilities can THEN be included in the building.

I think beekeeps often get overwhelmed by the enforcement of the regs. Approach it from a practical perspective, and do what your pocket book allows you to. Then figure a plan to satisfy the rest of the requirements. So is life.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

We currently extract and process for our NYC markets farmers markets. We are barely able to supply those so packing and wholesale are not on the radar at this point. There are other food related value added products we could make and sell with an approved facility. NYS has a farm kitchen license but you are not allowed to have a website, which we do. Our website is mainly for non-food products (nucs) because the cost of shipping honey is so prohibitive. Some our NYC customers buy during the off season but our website sales are dead air most of the season. NYS has a20c license process and that is in a booklet. It seems every time we take a step we try to do the research, spend a ton of time finding requirements and 10 other things we didn't find pop up. We applied for FDAApproval 2 months ago for a value added non food item product and so far nothing. I could work full time doing just the paperwork I have to do for sales tax, employment and record keep as it is. 

What I understand about electric would fit in a thimble. If I am understanding correct I could run 220 out of the normal 200 amp service I would have? What is three phase?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> I am understanding correct I sould run 220 out of the normal 200 amp service I would have? What is three phase?

You normal existing panel almost certainly already has 220 volts, and yes, that can be extended to your new shop. However, depending on how much power capacity you want in your new shop, and the capacity (typically described in 'amps', as in 200 amp panel) of your existing home panel, some upgrades might be required.

Three phase is a more efficient way of powering heavy motor loads. But you either need to be located close to a power line that has three phase, or use a converter. In my understanding, using a converter lets you use a motor that requires thre-phase, but ultimately doesn't really get you the efficiencies that would come with 'wired in' three phase power. Relatively few residences in the US have three phase power, but it may be available on a nearby pole. Call your power company to to check on three phase availability.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> >>
> Three phase is a more efficient way of powering heavy motor loads.


UUUUUUUUMMM,,nope.
120 degree phases incur "phase loss" thus the power factor calculation.
3 phase is used mainly due to greater ampacity availability in most locations.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

HarryVanderpool said:


> UUUUUUUUMMM,,nope.
> 120 degree phases incur "phase loss" thus the power factor calculation.
> 3 phase is used mainly due to greater ampacity availability in most locations.


Weeeeeelll, not everyone agrees with Mr. Vanderpool: 



> One of the most common class of 3 phase load is the 3 phase electric motor. A 3 phase induction motor has a simple design, inherently high starting torque, and high efficiency. Such motors are applied in industry for 3 phase pumps, fans, blowers, compressors, conveyor drives, and many other types of motor-driven equipment. There are a lot of benefits to using a 3 phase motor over a 1-phase electric motor. A 3 phase motor is more compact and less costly than a 1-phase motor of the same voltage class and rating; also 1-phase AC motors above 10 HP (7.5 kW) are not as efficient and thus not usually manufactured. Large air conditioning equipment (for example, most air conditioning units above 2.5 tons (8.8 kW) cooling capacity) use 3 phase motors for reasons of economy and efficiency. Read more about 3 phase power loads below.
> 
> http://www.3phasepower.org/3phaseloadson1phasepower.htm


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

HarryVanderpool said:


> UUUUUUUUMMM,,nope.
> 120 degree phases incur "phase loss" thus the power factor calculation.
> 3 phase is used mainly due to greater ampacity availability in most locations.


3 phase motors are simpler, more reliable and have better starting torque. The rotating magnetic field is much smoother resulting in quieter smoother operation and often a smaller physical size for the same HP. 3ph motors are also easier to reverse. With 1ph you need something like a capacitor and separate winding to create a rotating magnetic field to get the motor spinning initially. This is usually dropped out using a centrifugal switch. The centrifugal switch and cap tend to be points of failure.

Single phase to 3ph VFD/Inverter drives have come down a lot in price. You can pick these units for around $200: https://us.mitsubishielectric.com/fa/en/products/drive-products/inverters-freqrol/fr-d700-series or these with an IP67 rating for around $400 http://www.invertekdrives.com/variable-speed-drives/optidrive-e2/features.aspx


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Weeeeeelll, not everyone agrees with Mr. Vanderpool:


In a purely resistive AC circuit, voltage and current waveforms are in step (or in phase), changing polarity at the same instant in each cycle. All the power entering the load is consumed (or dissipated). Where reactive loads are present, such as with capacitors or inductors, energy storage in the loads results in a time difference between the current and voltage waveforms. During each cycle of the AC voltage, extra energy, in addition to any energy consumed in the load, is temporarily stored in the load in electric or magnetic fields, and then returned to the power grid a fraction of a second later in the cycle. The "ebb and flow" of this nonproductive power increases the current in the line. Thus, a circuit with a low power factor will use higher currents to transfer a given quantity of real power than a circuit with a high power factor. A linear load does not change the shape of the waveform of the current, but may change the relative timing (phase) between voltage and current.

Besides, how many hives does 3phasepower.org have anyway?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Besides, how many hives does 3phasepower.org have anyway?


Apparently, at least one _less _hive than you!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Joel, I wouldn't worry too much on the 3 phase unless it's readily available to you. And if so consider the costs involved. Focus your attention to the Amps your going to need in your building. Mine has a 400 amp service, it gets costly. Most of my small motor equipment runs off 110, except the heating unit and the spinner which is 220. I put in a big 28kw heat unit which took a lot.

If your asking what electrical regulation you need, best contact your electrician.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

The ability of an inverter to "soft start" by slowly ramping up the frequency is easier on machinery than an on/off switch. It also seems to prevent the sag from starting large single phase motors. We have 4 inverters running 5hp, 2 - 3 hp, and a 1 1/2 hp. motors, and are pleased with all, mostly Baldor. 

Equipment built for 3 phase also seems much more robust than single phase.

Harry, I must also beg to differ. Variable frequency 3 phase vector drives allow you to produce more torque at a lower RPM and in some circumstances save energy. If single phase was so good, all the big motors would be single phase, and they are not, they are 3 phase.

Again, determine your goals, and plan accordingly.

Crazy Roland


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Roland said:


> Equipment built for 3 phase also seems much more robust than single phase.
> 
> Harry, I must also beg to differ. Variable frequency 3 phase vector drives allow you to produce more torque at a lower RPM and in some circumstances save energy. If single phase was so good, all the big motors would be single phase, and they are not, they are 3 phase.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Roland, you are correct and you are not crazy.

However, my comment was about how "efficient" 3 phase power is.
3 phase power is the farthest thing from efficient. 
Fortunately over the last 20 - 30 years, much very good engineering in solid state drives and motor design has OVERCOME much of the inherent flaw of 3 phase power.
Remember that 3 phase motors are still in use, and will continue to be in use that start with a mag switch and are over 50 years old.
NOTHING "efficient" about that.
In fact, most municipalities now require a soft start for any motor over 40 hp in order to issue a permit due to causing a "brown out" from pulling the area low.
3 phase power is not inherently efficient. 
However, it is what we have, what we are GOING to have, and technology has corrected enough of the flaws to make it work MORE efficiently.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Roland, what do you have to run in the honey house with a 5,3,2 hp motor?


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Can't speak for other jurisdictions, but where I am, for honey extracting and light manufacturing any future savings if they exists, will never be greater than initial installation. My extracting equipment is all 110V with the heaters, pumps and spinner on 220V and 400 amp service. Seems to work well. The only motor I have blown in the last 15 year is the one I sprayer water into and then turned it on.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Yea, definately have our electrician on board, however we are looking to lease vs build as we are tired of having the honey house at home. We are at work, like all the time. Thanks to living in the armpit of America as far as economy there are tons of buildings empty and cheap. Trying to figure out what I need to fill the bill. I get food grade and commericial kitchen. We want to use the space for more public domain, maybe a sales so somewhere " public" but not busy so on those days shen the exhaust fan breaks down and a few thousand bees are at the back door we don't become the hated neighbors. Most places are very willing to meet whatever upgrades for a long term lease as many have been empty for years, I just want to get it as right as possible.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ian - Metal and wood working equipment. 

Crazy Roland


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

What's anyone using for wall covering. I like stainless steel, I know epoxy paint is food grade? Anyone making the extracting room a " hot room, or just heating the building?


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

We made a separate hot room for ours. Pallets go in one door to warm, then through the other door to the start of the extracting line. Setteling tank is in there also.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Allen Martens said:


> My extracting equipment is all 110V with the heaters, pumps and spinner on 220V and 400 amp service. Seems to work well. The only motor I have blown in the last 15 year is the one I sprayer water into and then turned it on.


110 vs. 220

Without getting into the phase thing...running 220 allows for a lower current draw at an equivalent power rating. Volts x Amps = Watts. Generally speaking, wires and circuits are rated in Amps, that is, how much current they can carry. Given the same load, a 220v circuit will draw half the current of a 110v circuit.

If you have a 15 amp circuit at 110v, it will be maxed out at 1650 watts. Any current drawn beyond that will trip the breaker. That same 1650W load on a 220V circuit will draw only 7.5A. The other way 'round, a 15A 220V circuit would let you run a 3300W load. (Actual loads allowed on the circuit might be less in the case of things like motors/compressors, as they tend to draw a higher current at startup than when running, I have one [portable] motor that draws so much current at startup that the addition of the extra resistance of an extension cord will cause it to trip the breaker.)


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