# Testing top vs. bottom entrances.



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Well, I was wrong on this prediction:


> PS: initially, this was a bottom entrance box and you can see that;* IF they really want to unplug entire bottom slot - they can; but I doubt they will*.


They *very decisively* unplugged entire bottom slot.
Wow, every hole they could - they did unplug.
I did not expect this.

And unplugged the very, very top entrance (a foot above the bottom entrance).








So, the very bottom and very top they worked hard to unplug. 
That's some real work was done, folks.
So they meant it, it looks like.

PS: this is somewhat unfortunate (the bottom entrance preference) in the skunk country, gonna have to staple an anti-skunk screen; I only hope it was NOT a skunk who unplugged the bottom entrance; though no obvious scratch marks that I could see.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

OK, I messed up their plans this AM again and undid all their hard work.
Closed the very bottom and very top and gave them the #2 entrance instead.
Weather is very cool and rainy though, and may interfere.
A good day to stay inside and clean the house.


----------



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

In my experience "honeybees" as a species don't seem to prefer one way or the other. But individual _colonies_, OTOH may have a distinct and durable preference that even outlasts a particular queen, and is often maintained to large degree along a particular open-mated queenline even in split-off daughter colonies. 

I almost never do the typical beekeeper manipulations of moving frames of bees and brood around among my colonies, which means that each of mine has an unusually stable, biologically-related population (for managed bees.). So habit may account for part of a given colony's attachment to one entrance or another. 

I had considered that there were invisible, entrance-pointing, pheromone markers on the boxes, but last year when I changed out every single box for a new one, there was no change in their preferences.

And to complicate things even further, some of my bees have distinct and durable patterns of seasonally-alternating entrance preferences, too. In other words some of my bees use the top entrance all winter long, but eagerly return to a strong lower entrance preference as soon as it warms up, leaving their winter door almost completely unguarded. 

I give every colony both options and only close one off if they abandon it completely.

However bees are also very adaptable, and they will put up with any tom-fool thing their beekeepers arrange.

Nancy


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

enjambres said:


> ..
> I almost never do the typical beekeeper manipulations of moving frames of bees and brood around among my colonies, which means that each of mine has an unusually stable, biologically-related population (for managed bees.). So habit may account for part of a given colony's attachment to one entrance or another. ....
> 
> Nancy


Nancy, note, however you keep your bees in standard Lang multi-body hives.
This means you keep adding and removing hive bodies over time to get to your beekeeping goals (meaning, keep changing the environment which then requires bee colony adjustments). This alone pollutes any perceived consistency over time. 

For this to work consistently, you should confine them to a double-deep no matter what (for example), and only observe the double-deep situation. You will have to forgo any honey/swarming/splitting concerns as secondary.

Sure, bees must adapt.
But, given choices within the same stable environment, what WILL they choose and keep choosing?

I am yet to see a *consistent *experiment to be properly implemented and documented. 
Maybe I just did not look hard enough.

With any luck, I will score another swarm soon here and will place them into the exact same hive model, and exact entrance configuration, and the same bee yard too. Should be fun to watch to experiments running side by side over the season.

To be sure, I am not pretending to be making any science here.
I have an immediate practical application for this - mess up few of my junky hives (by drilling all kinds of holes into them) so that I can decide where (and IF) I will drill any holes in my better hives. If I see benefits demonstrated to me, I will drill my better hives in the ways bees show me.

On the other hand, have not seen anyone presenting a consistently staged attempt to do this either.
So trying myself.


----------



## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Very interesting. Thanks for posting this Greg I look forward to updates. I have not run any experiments but my bees tend to act like Nancy's. Certain colonies have a definite preference and that preference is maintained even though the Queen's have changed. Their preference also changes from Summer to Winter. I use standard Lang hives. They are so fascinating and it is fun to run experiments on them, isn't it? J


----------



## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

Me thinks asking the bees which entrance is like asking beekeepers something. LOL I run both entrances and the preferences range from either or both with changing preferences but uncategorically none have chosen neither unless you consider the one that "punched" out a knot for a side entrance.


Not trying to be critical but even on a limited sample test, doesn't screening their very bottom choice invalidate any free choice results?


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Eikel said:


> Not trying to be critical but even on a limited sample test, *doesn't screening their very bottom choice invalidate any free choice results*?


No. 
Free choice remains.

Free choice == bee choose to decisively *work *so to unplug a specific hole. 
It is different from choosing between readily open holes.
Energy and time expenditure is involved. 
Every single talk of entrance choosing I have seen so far is about letting them pick a freebee of human design.
I am not doing this. This is not a freebee. 

Screening - I am talking *anti-skunk screening made of 1/2" mesh*. 
I have been doing exactly this and bees work through it fine.

In fact, confirmed - I have animal(s) on site. That's some hassle, unfortunately. Really good remote yard, but those darn animals.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

OK, 24 hour check.
So let me number the entrances.
Very bottom - #1; ...#2, ... #3, very top - #4.

With only #2 left open (post #3 above), they were less clear on the decision making and chose to have ALL for levels unplugged.
#3 - chosen.
#1 - less decisively chosen this time (still chosen).
#4 - only tentative partial opening for hardly one bee (still chosen).


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Plugged back all but #3.


----------



## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

I think they are playing let's mess with this guy's head. Tomorrow they will close them all up again except number 1


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> Plugged back all but #3.
> View attachment 41457


They unplugged #1 (entire slot again) and #4 only.
#2 was lower priority and they did not get it done as it looks.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I went ahead and plugged all but #4.








Unfortunately, I am not able to get back in 24 hours now (logistics changed).
Still unable to check them 48 hours later.

So this already messes my experiment - given too much time, they may just get everything unplugged regardless of priorities.
Reasonable time frame is important as the higher priority jobs get done first, I would think.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

So the running total (entrances bees chose/managed to unplug in 24 hours):
------------------
#1: 3
#2: 0
#3: 1
#4: 3

#1 and #4 seem to be preferred so far.


----------



## Woodstove (Jun 19, 2018)

Is there any variance in the manner in which you stuff the hole with the paper plug? I'm just wondering if the plugs are packed to different densities, are they simply able to chew through one quicker than another.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Woodstove said:


> Is there any variance in the manner in which you stuff the hole with the paper plug? I'm just wondering if the plugs are packed to different densities, are they simply able to chew through one quicker than another.


I know; I thought about it and trying my best to be consistent
Obviously, I am doing a crappy job.
Ideally, those plugs must be pre-made using some uniformed and well defined method.

But you know, I also don't intentionally do easy plugs for #1 and #4.
By the numbers so far, you could say I favor #1 and #4 and make easy plugs for these holes.
Well, no - I don't. 
This much I understand - to not intentionally favor any entrance (else I am wasting my own time and the reader's time and bee time).

So - someone go and do the proper science already!

I am just a curious homesteader trying to make hives from scraps, and catch swarms, and provide cheap but good food for my family. 
Not making science here, like I said.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Finally made it back 56 hours later - every single hole unplugged.
They even found a crack under the lid and using that as well.
Well, clearly time frame is important (especially for a strong colony working a flow).
This last set is a throw away. 
Unsure when I can back to this now; no time.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Today being +8C and sunny some of the bees went for a flight.

This was a good demo of clear preferences for the the top entrance.
I see the same picture twice now on my backyard temp hive with experimental entrances.

It makes sense - the top entrance must the warmest to get to without loosing much energy.
So it is a consideration - top entrance has benefits during the winter-time flights.
In addition, I do not worry at all about the bottom entrance to be snowed in - important point when your hives are placed on remote yards (no need to go there after snow dumps).


----------



## Murdock (Jun 16, 2013)

This has been a great thread! I only use a top entrance above a super during a flow and screen it shut after the flow. I might just give this a second look . So far my bees just seem to use the top entrance to hand out.


----------



## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

However bees are also very adaptable, and they will put up with any tom-fool thing their beekeepers arrange.

Nancy[/QUOTE]

l agree. Bees are adaptable. That's why you can move a frame of brood to a colony that needs one or move honey from one hive to another, again because the bees will benefit from the move

That said, I have used top entrances, and my hives often have them if only because they hives are broken in a corner or edge of the box. The bees adapt to it. However, I am really writing to say that the bees are much better off with a bottom entrance along with whatever else. Debris, dead bees, etc. fall to the bottom of the hive. IMO it is much easier for them to remove said debris if they have a bottom entrance. And removing the junk helps the bee hive to remain healthy. Note I am only talking about solid bottoms. I have no experience with screened bottoms, fwiw.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

The last couple of days I appreciate some of my hives having more flexible entrance configurations (vertical row of holes vs. bottom-only).
I can cover them up with snow much higher - as long as a couple top holes are open it is good.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

After the weekend rounds post-deep freeze, I made another observation.
Availability of upper entrances for remote hives can actually be vital. 
Just consider the pics - I had to open up completely snowed in bottom entrances in bottom-only hives.
The mixed upper/bottom entrances - it is a non-issue as most upper entrances are safe and do not require continuous attention. 

Also, insurance from the dead bee build-up too - https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?351879-death-by-suffocation. 

I think the mixed entrance availability is a good design for a low maintenance/remote bee yards.
Just a minimal 1/2 inch utility opening above the snow cover or a dead bee pile could be a difference between live hive and dead hive.

Two bottom entrances are hidden below snow bank - not a problem. 
Bees in this plywood box from scraps are better off when living under the snow.
The more snow is the better. They did fine in -31C (-24F) and the wind.








Unless cleaned out, bees can not easily come out of the bottom-only entrance hives if a random warm day comes along (+7C today).
Also the ventilation is affected by the snow.
I would also really like to pile on more snow - but the entrances get in a way (can not close them up).


----------



## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Thanks for starting this thread. I am enjoying your learning curve even though my climate doesnt get snow, nor do we have skunks to worry about.
I did a similar thing with holes in the plastic small cell frames, being interested in which spot they preferred to move through the frames.
My current hive has the bottom entrance it came with, the next two I will set up will have one 2/3rds the way up, hopefully with one being a swarm and the other being a split so I can seehow they differ from my 'control' hive.
It wont be this year though, I am still just too busy work wise to be able to do them justice, so I just watch you and learn. lol


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

So I am sold on supplemental top entrances for my area - they are indeed needed in the Upper Mid-west of the USA.
Main reasons:

* to have supplemental exit/breathing hole when bottom entrances are covered by winter precipitation 
(this winter was a perfect demo)
* during the cold season up here, bees prefer to use the top entrances/front wall of the hive to the bottom entrance 
(it is just warmer in the upper part of the hive; the bottom of the hive is too cold and is not an attractive entrance route)

* (added) and of course a nice option to have in summer with a skunk always a possibility

I am going around and drilling 1/2 inch auxiliary entrances into all of my horizontal rigs (8 inch above the main).
Not looking back.


----------



## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Thanks for your observations. This winter neither of my hives used the upper entrance. Today,with a big warm up to 57 degrees, some were checking them out after exiting through the bottom. Go figure. J


----------



## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

Hello GregV,

I found your thread more or less by accident and the reading was fascinating, thanks to post this that always played in my mind, but I was to chicken to ask the question.

Your snow drifts are the biggest reason I would consider an additional entrance hole higher up with the bottom entrance reducer, but I have always been afraid to give a 'draft' to the hives.

I admit, I did not read every posting in this thread and apologies if this 'draft issue' has been addressed. Is it a valid concern, particularly in fall, winter and spring? 

Could it be a entrance for rodents, particularly mice that seem to me eager to enter a warm, cozy and food-stuffed fall/winter hive? I caught nine mice over the winter around my four hives with old fashioned cheese baited mouse traps.

Cheers, Joerg K.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Biermann said:


> Hello GregV,
> 
> I found your thread more or less by accident and the reading was fascinating, thanks to post this that always played in my mind, but I was to chicken to ask the question.
> 
> ...


With my setups the air does not go through the nest at all.
What does get the draft (in theory) - is the ventilated cool "hall-way" (and I mean it this way - the drafty "hall-way").
This setup is afforded by an asymmetric placement of the holes (if did not notice yet - look again).
Here is a diagram (I call this setup - hive-inside-hive - the inner hive is made up using free-hanging follower boards):







I suppose you can achieve the same with warm way frame orientation AND a follower board shielding the frames from the entrance.

Another benefit of the "hall-way" - bees get to hang out in it during the cool season (I observed it today while checking too).
It is "outside" of the nest because it is outside of the shielding follower board (but yet it is inside and bees are protected from wind and precipitation).
So, the bees get to hang out in the *upper part of the hive (warm!)* used as a hall-way, and get to peek outside and get back inside.
Moisture dissipates through the hall way.
None of this matters in summer - the entire volume is just filled with the frames.

Rodents - I never make any single hole bigger than 1/2 inch.
Also, I staple 1/2 mesh to surround the every hole's perimeter so the rodents can not widen it.
As of me - rodents are a non-issue. I am sure I got plenty around but no matter.
I got other issues to work out (like keeping the darn bugs alive).


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

More observations/comments.

Weak hives definitely prefer upper entrances and so they should have them.
This is especially obvious during cold, unreliable April season (typical in WI).
The winter bee/spring bee turnover takes place, they are trying to raise early brood, forage early pollen, and every available working bee counts.















However, IF a hive is strong - this does not matter much anymore, even in April.
They will use every hole available to get in and out.








So - in spring upper entrances are beneficial to weaker colonies (as the bees indicate by their clear preferences).


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Greg - as an 'all-weather beehive' concept, I think this is exceptionally good - can't see a single flaw in your thinking: essentially a bottomless hive housed within it's own individual bee-house. If provision could somehow be made for the convenient supply and checking of emergency stores, I'd say that would easily constitute a winning design ... 
Fame and riches await you 
LJ


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Greg - .............
> Fame and riches await you
> LJ


LJ, 

I definitely would love to have you on our local board of "bee directors"! So I can sell my designs!

As it turned out, I subsequently found someone in Russia already patented a "Nothern hive" with a so-called "hall way" (exact same idea - to have a space which is outside of the bee nest, but still inside the enclosure).
But I think he over-engineered it (huge hive and built-in special compartment acting as a mid-way hallway).
Too much.

All it takes a corner-placed entrances OR warm-way placed entrances.
A cheap follower board which creates 1-2 inch entry space.
All it is to it - not worth a patent; this is too stupid to be worth a patent.
But still, I basically invented a wheel.

But regardless, the cold entry hallway idea seems good to me - the corner-placed entrances lead into an empty hallway (not directly into the nest).
A free-handing follower board separates the hallway from the nest-proper - this way bees distinguish the hall way and not try to build in it.
The nest proper is set in warm-way with respect to the cold hallway.
Bees are free to hang out in the hallway during rain/wind/cold day/night - useful during the Wisconsin crappy spring or any crappy weather.
The same applies to hot days - the hallway is a good place to initiate ventilation of the entire building.

So yes, pretty much all my new hives will be constructed this way.
That white-and-blue hive just above - built that way.
All existing hives have been retrofitted by now (only takes a quick drill job).

What I like about the series vertical holes in the front wall - I want the entire front wall of the hive to be the "landing pad".
None of those extra landing boards and stuff. Nothing is sticking out - good for mobility.
Seems to be working well just as pictured above.




PS: here is another important idea - that cold hallway is best oriented in the hive so that that particular side is hit by the sun (whatever it means in your location);
this should have benefits during both cold season and hot seasons


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> As it turned out, I subsequently found someone in Russia already patented a "Nothern hive" with a so-called "hall way" (exact same idea - to have a space which is outside of the bee nest, but still inside the enclosure).
> But I think he over-engineered it (huge hive and built-in special compartment acting as a mid-way hallway).
> Too much.


Since I mentioned, here it is (text is translatable; good pics).
Is a good stationary hive (but at zero mobility, not for me).
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5c59...konstrukcii-o-goluba-5c6c6386a3e97b00b069c43f


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I want to add more upper-entrances somehow...
Hate looking at this.

Tired of watching how bees just jam into the small 1/2 inch upper hole.
They cling onto each other, fall down, pile up, crawling over each other - it is a mess, how they are fighting to get through this tiny hole (both directions too).

Meanwhile, just 12 inches lower, there are idling lower holes, hardly used (mostly for some ventilation, some hanging out, and an occasional forager passer by). 
One hole above get about the same volume of traffic as four holes open below.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> I want to add more upper-entrances somehow...
> Hate looking at this.
> 
> Tired of watching how bees just jam into the small 1/2 inch upper hole.
> ...


Pulling up this thread.
Based on my observations - all across my hives with top entrances (nearly all out of 15 at the moment) - the bees do indeed heavily use the top entrances (just as documented by the previous post). This is definitely is a thing with all of my bees, IF given a choice.

Too bad - but at this point in season I am deliberately closing off the top entrances so to pull the bees down.
I have a "control hive" with bottom only entrance - per the very recent check, the brood and honey are perfectly and *automatically *aligned for the good wintering - brood is in the very bottom; solid honey belt is above the brood. 
Exactly as on these frames (pictured from a bottom-only entrance hive from few seasons back):














So now ALL the upper entrances will be closed off until snow so that the bee clusters will settle as low as possible.

On the pic - the bees are jamming into the small upper entrance while available bottom entrances largely used for ventilation only.
So, I plugged the upper most hole (to the bees' dismay); the second upper hole will get plugged shortly.
The bees are still fighting to get into the plugged hole - their primary foraging entrance.


----------



## Cariboospeed (Sep 12, 2018)

My vertical langs have the typical bottom, and a little notch in the inner covers for a top entrance. Both get restricted down to 1/2" over winter, a brood, and a honey super, all wrapped. Since the cluster is near the top, come spring, they use the top entrance. They will guard the lower, and remove dead and litter from the bottom, but they prefer to use the top even though its only ~2" wide. 

Even when the excluder is in place, and the brood box is full, they still prefer the top entrance. When adding supers, or removing for inspections, its great confusion for returning foragers looking for their now missing entrance. If the entranced has just moved, they figure it out pretty quick. If the hive is apart and they can't find it at all, it makes for a lot of chaos. Since the opening is in the inner cover, its always there, and goes up and down with the hive, keeping the peace and order. 

A few weeks ago they (all hives) really started using the bottom larger opening. Maybe they just have to from population growth, maybe it was the summer heat, maybe they just figured it out.

My double deep horizontal, has upper and lower entrances as well and the same behaviour. I know in spring, its obvious since the cluster is high, they would use the convenient top entrance, but they now use their bottom holes too.

The other two horizontals, have 3, 4x1/2" slots on the bottom and they also have a preferred one they use, the first one they used when they were just a split. As they expanded across and gained another entrance, they didn't really use it, and still prefer to guard and fan it, but only 1/5 the forager traffic at most.

My deduction would be they use what is convenient to the cluster, they learn to use that one and carry on.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I'll just chuck in my 2 penny-worth on this one ...

Earlier in the year I set-up a 24-inch Gallup-framed Long Hive, with the intention of running it as per Greg's 'hive within a hive' concept. The original plan was to get lots of shorter (8.5-inch depth) frames drawn-out in other hives and then xfer them all over to this Gallup-LH - but - when it came time to install the bees I found I had enough frames already drawn within their former hive to give them a start - so I took a chance and installed these right at the front of the box, with a dozen or more bare frames behind the brood-nest, all set at 32mm spacing to see if worker comb would result. (At the time of writing, that's exactly what has happened)

At each end, this hive has 2x 22mm diameter holes near the bottom and one near the top - the long-term plan being to have one end with bottom entrances, with an upper vent open at the other end. But - when transferring the colony, I placed their original hive (which had a bottom entrance) on top of the Gallup-LH, and so as to make life easy for the foragers, I kept the Gallup-LH top hole open in order that it was only a few inches from their former entrance. The transfer was thus completely painless.

Since that time the colony has expanded - I think the term usually used is "going gangbusters" - with around 80 to 90% of the traffic being via what has now become a top entrance - whether that has been due to familiarity/conditioning or preference, couldn't say at this moment - but I plan a major upheaval in the next few days, when all the frames will be removed so that I can lighten the box before re-locating it onto a more permanent stand. At that time, I'll set-up the 'hive within a hive' structure with the two divider boards, which will then mean that - unlike now - access to the combs will be more 'direct' via the bottom entrance. So - at that point I'll seal-up the top entrance for (say) two weeks, after which time I'll re-open it out of curiosity to see if there are any signs of preference.
If there's not, then I'll re-seal it. However, should there be any obvious signs of preference, then I'll need to re-think this whole entrance thing.
'best
LJ


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> ........ then I'll need to re-think this whole entrance thing.
> 'best
> LJ



Whatever it is - them bees like the top-placed holes.

I simply stopped taking pictures to document the thing, but that is the predominant case that I see.
We had 4 days of non-stop rain (a good thing after the long, hot drought) - today it stopped - immediately in the hive pictured above the bees are again fighting to get into the plugged up hole. The upper hole has been plugged ~10 days now - the bees are still drawn to it. 

But here I come with my stupid ideas - I want them to raise the last brood for the season as low on the frames as possible.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Going thru pictures/short vids - I remembered of this short filmed a few months ago.

Pay close attention and see which entrances are utilized the highest.
Do pay attention to - where the bees are frantically moving in/out vs. where bees just simply crawl about and ventilate.

I am not going to alter the perception and will not suggest anything.
But to me it is clear - there is one entrance of the four present where the activity is the highest.






Google Photos


Home for all your photos and videos, automatically organized and easy to share.



photos.google.com


----------



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> Pay close attention and see which entrances are utilized the highest.


At least in my yard, the entrance that is most utilized is the one they get used to- and at least with the Warres (which have an entrance on each box) it can differ year-to-year.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> At least in my yard, *the entrance that is most utilized is the one they get used to-* and at least with the Warres (which have an entrance on each box) it can differ year-to-year.


This is one problem with the multi-box hives - which makes them less suitable for entrance activity comparisons.

In *fixed volume hives* you can not re-shuffle the nest vertically.
So, once you run the hive thru the season with all entrances open - the usage tendency develops predictably (the same one posted on the video).


----------



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> In *fixed volume hives* you can not re-shuffle the nest vertically.


But remember that my Warre boxes function as fixed volumes- I do not as a rule manipulate them in any way.

As @Gray Goose coined them, they are my resident 'swarm generators' .


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> But remember that my Warre boxes function as fixed volumes- I do not as a rule manipulate them in any way.
> 
> As @Gray Goose coined them, they are my resident 'swarm generators' .


Also true.
Them darn bees are *different*!


----------



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> Them darn bees are *different*!


I _suspect_ that bees might orient either to the entrance closest to the location they hatched from and / or the location of the active brood nest and then this/these location(s) become(s) the predominant one for the season.


----------



## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

Litsinger said:


> At least in my yard, the entrance that is most utilized is the one they get used to- and at least with the Warres (which have an entrance on each box) it can differ year-to-year.


Totally agree, Russ 

I’ve had a combination of upper and lower entrances for about 6 years and the bees slightly favor the upper ones. However…the upper ones are not favored by me, the keeper, so I’ve just, very gradually over this last year, returned to lower entrances only.

Why one might ask? The pollen foragers drop their own corbiculae pellets off in the closest cells to the entrance, as a rule. This leads to the broodnest relocating to this general area. All my upper entrance colonies stored their capped honey in the bottom 3 boxes and had their brood in the top ones, especially by the entrance. The upper entrances all had a 3D ball of pollen surrounding the inside of the entrance.

Now all this is wonderful except it makes my life a little harder, for obvious reasons. My bees don’t mind the lower entrance at all (we don’t have snow drifts) and they get accustomed to it perfectly (no absconsions) just as Russ stated above. 

I’m ecstatic this year to finally have them all converted back to lower entrances. An extenuating asset is that I do employ homemade slatted racks in all my hives to inhibit draughts.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Snarge said:


> Why one might ask? The pollen foragers drop their own corbiculae pellets off in the closest cells to the entrance, as a rule. This leads to the broodnest relocating to this general area. All my upper entrance colonies stored their capped honey in the bottom 3 boxes and had their brood in the top ones, especially by the entrance. The upper entrances all had a 3D ball of pollen surrounding the inside of the entrance.


Yes - I am well aware of this problem.

This is why I advocate for running the entrance/frame orientation in the "warm way".

Only the 1-2 frames nearest to the entrance become plugged by the pollen.
A trivial solution to the hassles caused by the upper entrance.


----------



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Snarge said:


> The upper entrances all had a 3D ball of pollen surrounding the inside of the entrance.


Same problem here- and I beat my head against the wall until @gww made me aware of the following thread where @DanielD described the problem to a 'T':









Top entrances cost too much


I have all top entrances but one hive. Some have an additional bottom entrance, but they mostly use the top. Last year I had an issue that I thought was the fault of the queen genetics somehow, but it's back this year through 3 different lines of bees. The honey flow was good and long, and my...




www.beesource.com





Once I got rid of the upper entrance, problem solved.


----------



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> A trivial solution to the hassles caused by the upper entrance.


For those running boxes which allow for this functionality- unfortunately not a trivial fix for those employing Langstroth boxes.

The other problem I ran into was that in order to do inspections, I had to immediately disrupt the active broodnest, which was now (and always) at the top of the stack.

Not at all saying that upper entrances are bad- only that in my experience they do not lend themselves to beekeeper convenience in a Langstroth application.


----------



## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

GregB said:


> Yes - I am well aware of this problem.
> 
> This is why I advocate for running the entrance/frame orientation in the "warm way".
> 
> ...


In Tn there’s no need for warm way-cold way so it, ultimately, comes down to location, location, location and, consequently, less work for me 🤗


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> unfortunately not a trivial fix for those employing Langstroth boxes.


Well, all it takes is - drill a hole in a box.

Yes, I know - for many people that is painful. 
Yes, this may feel wrong and improper - because the picture books show it differently.


----------



## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

GregB said:


> Well, all it takes is - drill a hole in a box.
> 
> Yes, I know - for many people that is painful.
> Yes, this may feel wrong and improper - because the picture books show it differently.
> ...


Been there, done that. Hey~ I’m making like a peasant! We have more in common than you want to think…


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Snarge said:


> In Tn there’s no need for warm way-cold way so it, ultimately, comes down to location, location, location and, consequently, less work for me 🤗


It is no need anywhere - even in Alaska.
But the bees respond differently in arranging the nest.

Of course, until tried - you'd never know.


----------



## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

GregB said:


> It is no need anywhere - even in Alaska.
> But the bees respond differently in arranging the nest.
> 
> Of course, until tried - you'd never know.


See above comment…


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Snarge said:


> See above comment…


Look, I know of the exact issue DanielD talks about. 
Old subject.

The issue is managed something like this, below (where you break the nest segments onto *individual frames* vs. having all bunch of frames with *half-brood/half-honey*)
Bees arrange the frame contents *differently *when having it setup in the warm-way.
Each frame is either brood OR pollen OR honey - but NOT all of these combined on a single frame.
I discuss it here:








A Vertical 'Gallup' (300x300)


Hive Swap tomorrow ... Beginning tomorrow, the weather forecast is for a 2 day heatwave - so - I'm taking advantage of this to xfer bees from a horizontal 'Gallup Hive' to it's vertical equivalent: which is - for all intents and purposes - a Warre stack but without the Warre doctrine. Don't...




www.beesource.com





This approach is exactly how this hive operates - warm-way frame orientation.


----------



## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

Litsinger said:


> For those running boxes which allow for this functionality- unfortunately not a trivial fix for those employing Langstroth boxes.
> 
> The other problem I ran into was that in order to do inspections, I had to immediately disrupt the active broodnest, which was now (and always) at the top of the stack.
> 
> Not at all saying that upper entrances are bad- only that in my experience they do not lend themselves to beekeeper convenience in a Langstroth application.


Exactly, Russ

One has to disrupt the brood sanctuary when removing the top box. I attempt to keep the colonies as intact and undisturbed as possible.

Another consideration is that one gets to heft each remaining honey box when it’s on the top, especially in the fall. I lift the top box now and, sometimes, stand on some old bathroom scales to get a more accurate weight (does this box make me look fat?).

I also like the lower entrance because the bottom box, after a period, becomes completely pollen-plugged and can then be removed in the spring and the frames cycled out. It also serves as an insulating area during the colder months. (There is never a shortage of incoming pollen in Tn).

Upper entrances also give robbers another access opportunity, as well as small hive beetles.

Is it evident that I really am pleased to not have upper entrances anymore? I say all this having been there, done that and not been impressed with the certificate.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Snarge said:


> Is it evident that I really am pleased to not have upper entrances anymore?


Whatever works.

For myself I found I prefer ability to utilize both.
Cold season upper-entrances work well in my custom hives - these allow me to sleep well.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here I eventually added an upper hole too.
It is a hassle to go out there and dig out the bottom entrance every single time we get snow.
No more of that.

Most certainly, the snow dumps are a non-issues in more southern locations.
But up here people do loose bees to snow, unless measures are taken.


----------



## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

GregB said:


> Here I eventually added an upper hole too.
> It is a hassle to go out there and dig out the bottom entrance every single time we get snow.
> No more of that.
> 
> View attachment 71871


What’s that white stuff?

Totally makes sense. Location does play such a huge role in the decisions we make.

There’s a blog that encourages ekes with moisture quilts. Been there, done that, too. Stopped a few years ago and took the huge leap (though based on physics) to not have any upper ventilation, period. My bees are quiet on the comb, consume little and exist in their warm, carbon dioxide-laden bubble. It’s a wonderful thing but may not work in other parts of the world.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Snarge said:


> Stopped a few years ago and took the huge leap (though based on physics)* to not have any upper ventilation, period.*


Discussed heavily last winter, if I recall.
Pretty much I demonstrated how solid plastic film over your bees will NOT kill them "due to moisture". 

I do have well ventilated "attics" above the bees - but that is also above the plastic and a good layer of insulation. 
Having a ventilated attic helps - when you are trying to winter under a pile of "that white stuff". LOL


----------



## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

GregB said:


> Discussed heavily last winter, if I recall.
> Pretty much I demonstrated how solid plastic film over your bees will NOT kill them "due to moisture".


Yes~things get rehashed. We have new people reading Beesource every day and they can’t be expected to have read every prior thread…


----------



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Snarge said:


> ... they can’t be expected to have read every prior thread…


What?!? You mean I don't have to search through the catacombs anymore? 

In seriousness, there's lot's of gold in them hills...


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Snarge said:


> they can’t be *expected to have read every prior thread…*


No need to read indiscriminately as you'll run out of life time before finding what you need.

But a quick search on Google finds you this very thread: "top bottom entrance site:beesource.com"








Testing top vs. bottom entrances.


OK, thanks to a freshly caught swarm, I finally decided to do the experiment long wanted. Pretty strong swarm - 5-7 pounds (2-3 kilos) of bees. Testing which entrance will these bees like better - top or bottom or something in between. The hive is my own portable Ukrainian, 60 liter box (10...




www.beesource.com





Why search?
Because first you have a question - then you search for the existing answers or at least the existing discussions about it.
For sure, this is what we do in the IT world - "live by the Google, die by the Google".


This very search finds many other similar discussions on this very topic - very interesting:








Bottom entrance versus Top entrance


Could I have some advice on bottom entrance versus top entrance for Hives.




www.beesource.com












Why Do Bees Prefer Top Entrances and We Build Hives With...


I have a Kelley Bee Kentucky Special Hive. When I added a top feeder, I build a false deep body to enclose it above the top cover of the hive. I have the main entrance reduced with the entrance reducer that came with it so they can guard the entrance better. I did drill a 1/2" hole in the...




www.beesource.com












Tom Seeley raw data: top entrances vs bottom entrances


I wrote in to Tom Seeley asking about his data for the top entrance vs bottom entrance preference of honey bees. He gave me permission to share his email here: ... In my tests with paired nest boxes (see attached paper from 1978), the bees expressed their preference for a nest cavity with a...




www.beesource.com


----------



## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

Litsinger said:


> What?!? You mean I don't have to search through the catacombs anymore?
> 
> In seriousness, there's lot's of gold in them hills...


There really is. Lots of bunny holes to jump down.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

No upper entrance, no holes drilling, no problem with snow blocking lower entrance or year around opened screened bottom board...
Just a piece of old plywood.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregB said:


> Discussed heavily last winter, if I recall.
> Pretty much I demonstrated how solid plastic film over your bees will NOT kill them "due to moisture".
> 
> I do have well ventilated "attics" above the bees - but that is also above the plastic and a good layer of insulation.
> Having a ventilated attic helps - when you are trying to winter under a pile of "that white stuff". LOL


I think that Greg uses the system of a hive within a hive; internal insulation and moisture retention film that retains cluster heat an humidity greatly independent of the holes in the outer shell. As long as the bees in the inner sanctum can control the warmth and humidity they need, venting of excess moisture is not a game killer. Without the inner bundling of the colony I would assume the results would not be as good. Pretty typical of the arrangements shown in a lot of the East European colonies.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

crofter said:


> I think that Greg uses the system of a hive within a hive; internal insulation and moisture retention film that retains cluster heat an humidity greatly independent of the holes in the outer shell. As long as the bees in the inner sanctum can control the warmth and humidity they need, venting of excess moisture is not a game killer. Without the inner bundling of the colony I would assume the results would not be as good. Pretty typical of the arrangements shown in a lot of the East European colonies.


The way Greg is doing proved itself in Russia, Soviet Union and in Russia again. It is as smart as unnecessary complicated nowadays, IMO. But it is good when people have a choice, isn't it?

BTW:
I watch many Russian YT videos (Polish children were forced to learn Russian starting with 5th grade once upon the time) and see how beekeepers there move to poly hives when they only can. They even extrude DIY EPS boxes to get rid of wooden old hives and make beekeeping simpler.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> They even extrude DIY EPS boxes to get rid of wooden old hives and *make beekeeping simpler.*


Making it simpler is the usual catch phrase.
It is always about making it "simpler". 
Now - quantify it. 

I like very much my *coffin hives* - very simple. 

I know see an approximation of set-it-and-forget it style (not quite the same but it is getting close).
And I don't need to be there to install and remove supers as none are needed.
But enough said of that, already.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> Making it simpler is the usual catch phrase.
> It is always about making it "simpler".
> Now - quantify it.
> ...


If it is not simpler why would they do it? I think they are pretty down to the earth.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> If it is not simpler why would they do it? I think they are pretty down to the earth.


They are trying to be "commercial".
Or to look "commercial".
Or they are in the poly-hive marketing (most ALL YouTubers are - pay attention!). 

I would be too - after the free sponsor hives so I can show them on my channel (who wouldn't?).

That's why.

A hive with many boxes will always require more touches - no way around it.
More boxes - more touches.

Yes - the poly boxes make those touches "less heavy" - you can call it "simpler". 
There I agree.

As far as wintering in our climate (So. WI/No. IL) - it is simple.
Toss a blanket onto it and done.
Simple scrappy hive with healthy bees in it should do.


----------



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

jtgoral said:


> ... how beekeepers there move to poly hives when they only can.


Having recently purchased a few handfuls worth of poly hives, there is certainly a lot of appeal to them.

While it remains to be seen how they perform in my local climate, they definitely hold the edge on the simplicity front, at least by comparison to wooden Langstroth equipment.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> They are trying to be "commercial".
> Or to look "commercial".
> Or they are in the poly-hive marketing (most ALL YouTubers are - pay attention!).
> I would be too - after free hives so I show them on my channel (who wouldn't?).
> ...


Really?


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Are


jtgoral said:


> Really?


Aren't they about 3 times as expensive. Is wood in Europe very much more expensive than it is here?


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> Having recently purchased a few handfuls worth of poly hives, there is certainly a lot of appeal to them.
> 
> While it remains to be seen how they perform in my local climate, they definitely hold the edge on the simplicity front, at least by comparison to wooden Langstroth equipment.


Anel poly hives are made in Greece, Apimaye in Turkey. Is this climate similar to your location? 
Lyson in Poland (climate like mine in Chicago area. Almost ), Paradise in Finland. Like in Alaska? Or Edmonton Canada?.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

crofter said:


> Are
> 
> Aren't they about 3 times as expensive. Is wood in Europe very much more expensive than it is here?


Paradise I bought from BlueSky was not 3 times more expensive. It is one time expense covered during one or two years you save on winter sugar feeding. Then you save every year.

This is my take on it. But we always have the choices.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> Really?


Of course, not - many *commercial non-Youtubers,* indeed, spend the money on the poly.
Because even the "less heavy" ~ "simple" makes a lot of sense to them.
Not having to wrap 100 hives makes a lot of sense to them.

I can show you examples right now.

But as far the Youtubers are concerned - they are content generators.
They are in the business of content generation.
This is how many of them got their poly-hives - as free promotions.
I would too, hands down.
They are "down to earth", poly-hive promoters all right. 
So the picture they represent is skewed.


----------



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

jtgoral said:


> Anel poly hives are made in Greece, Apimaye in Turkey. Is this climate similar to your location?


Very well could be- we are temperate here and would have a climate similar to Nashville, TN or Baltimore, MD as examples of metropolitan areas in the same climate zone.

I'm looking forward to giving them a try!


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> Very well could be- we are temperate here and would have a climate similar to Nashville, TN or Baltimore, MD as examples of metropolitan areas in the same climate zone.
> 
> I'm looking forward to giving them a try!


Please share your experience next spring  And next fall, because those hives should be good during hot summer, too.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> they definitely hold the edge on the *simplicity *front, at least by comparison to wooden Langstroth equipment.


OK, Russ, how would you quantify the "simplicity" then? In your case?

Cause there has to be a metric - # of touches, etc.
Just the feely/touchy "simplicity" does not cut it with me.
Some concrete numbers, 'cause you are a numbers guy.

PS: OK! I admit - I myself chase after the free foam coolers for my very specific applications - true! 
But they are *free*.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

I just checked the price for wooden 10 FR box and Paradise 10 FR box. The wooden one is $1 more expensive. Take your pick backyard beekeeper


----------



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> OK, Russ, how would you quantify the "simplicity" then? In your case?


You know me- I'm an engineer by trade so I love analyzing stuff.

But right now, my feedback is based only on the getting them ready to use efficiency- it was simpler and more efficient time-wise to assemble and prepare the poly hive set-ups relative to a comparable Langstroth. 

As to the negative, I worry about carpenter ants and prying the boxes apart with a hive tool- I hope they prove my concerns are unfounded .


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> You know me- I'm an engineer by trade so I love analyzing stuff.
> 
> But right now, my feedback is based only on the getting them ready to use efficiency- it was simpler and more efficient time-wise to assemble and prepare the poly hive set-ups relative to a comparable Langstroth.
> 
> As to the negative, I worry about carpenter ants and prying the boxes apart with a hive tool- I hope they prove my concerns are unfounded .


Being on the conservative side, I will harvest my own honey from the trusted wooden boxes.
Just to avoid unnecessary microplastic stuff from the poly hives (as if we don't eat too much micro-plastic already). 
So, there is that consideration.
I will give it time for be exposed better (because it is not yet).

And here is this:
Are Honey Bees at Risk from Microplastics? - PMC (nih.gov)


----------



## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

jtgoral said:


> I just checked the price for wooden 10 FR box and Paradise 10 FR box. The wooden one is $1 more expensive. Take your pick backyard beekeeper


If I had to choose between the wood or foam I would pick the wood, too much foam in this world as it is so unless I am recycling old styrofoam containers for temporary nucs I would rather buy wood. 

But if we are voting on hive types, I vote for the 'coffin' Ukrainian hive hands down.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> If I had to choose between the wood or foam I would pick the wood, too much foam in this world as it is so unless I am recycling old styrofoam containers for temporary nucs I would rather buy wood.
> 
> But if we are voting on hive types, I vote for the 'coffin' Ukrainian hive hands down.


What is your house insulation made of?


----------



## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

jtgoral said:


> What is your house insulation made of?


Fiberglass

ETA I did not choose my house insulation I can however, choose to not add to a problem that I see already exists. Just like I choose to bring my own shopping bags to the store and refuse to use their plastic ones ( although thankfully, just lately, the plastic ones were outlawed in our city, the dumps were overrun with plastic)

IMO Those who try to be conscious of our impact on the environment and seek to reduce that do not need to be absolutely 100% perfect, they just need to do what they can when they can. Every little effort counts.

I will also add that I do wrap my hives in styrofoam, but I use recycled stuff. You asked the question and I think anyone can use what they like, I like wood.


----------



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> So, there is that consideration.


And that is certainly an important one- it steered me away from plastic initially.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> Fiberglass


Do we have to much of it in the world?


----------



## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

jtgoral said:


> Do we have to much of it in the world?


Probably, there is much we cannot change and much that we can. Use the hives if you like, no judgement from me. I will pass, I don't want my honey in styrofoam.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Guys/Gals, I apologize! 

Because I myself got into this complete tangent (poly vs. wood) in the talk of "top entrances vs. bottom entrance".
Let's get back to it.
Thanks!

PS: I would like to find/create a different talk about how the "poly-hives are simple - the simplicity in the numbers"


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here you go - the poly hive talk - that way -------->:
Poly hives are simpler to use - show me the numbers. | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


----------



## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

ursa_minor said:


> If I had to choose between the wood or foam I would pick the wood, too much foam in this world as it is so unless I am recycling old styrofoam containers for temporary nucs I would rather buy wood.
> 
> But if we are voting on hive types, I vote for the 'coffin' Ukrainian hive hands down.


In Tn, where added insulation is not required and 8 frame Langs are perfectly use-friendly, my main concern with poly is what Russ mentioned.

I put an R10 cut-to-fit piece of foam above my inner cover year round and the ants (many different varieties) absolutely love this material. I don’t kill them, or try to remove them, because they will come right back. I just replace the foam piece after it has become riddled with ant tunnels during the summer.


----------



## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Snarge said:


> In Tn, where added insulation is not required and 8 frame Langs are perfectly use-friendly, my main concern with poly is what Russ mentioned.
> 
> I put an R10 cut-to-fit piece of foam above my inner cover year round and the ants (many different varieties) absolutely love this material. I don’t kill them, or try to remove them, because they will come right back. I just replace the foam piece after it has become riddled with ant tunnels during the summer.


Have you tried placing the foam board inside a poly animal feed bag? That's what finally worked for us in keeping ants out.


----------



## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

drummerboy said:


> Have you tried placing the foam board inside a poly animal feed bag? That's what finally worked for us in keeping ants out.


Thanks, Drummerboy!

No, but that sounds like a great solution. Could I get that from Tractor Supply or do you recommend a different vendor?


----------



## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

Snarge said:


> Thanks, Drummerboy!
> 
> No, but that sounds like a great solution. Could I get that from Tractor Supply or do you recommend a different vendor?


Most chicken feed are in these bags I think. If you know someone that has chickens, ask them if the feed is in a platicy type bag.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Amazon.com : Feed and Grain Bags


----------



## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

Tigger19687 said:


> Most chicken feed are in these bags I think. If you know someone that has chickens, ask them if the feed is in a platicy type bag.


Thanks! 2 of our neighbors keep chickens. I’ll ask them.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Feed bags make a workable soft inner hive cover too.


----------



## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

Had 1/2 of a resource hive close up it's own top entrance. I'm not getting in the middle of that decision. When in doubt I defer to the bees. They have a quilt box so venting is in place up above so it will stay dry. As long as the bottom entrance remains unblocked I'm not going to worry about it.


----------



## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

LOL; We've got chickens, pigs (now in the freezer), dogs and cats. Alas, we have plenty of feed bags to spare , but they do seem to be widely available (empty or with feed) based on the responses above.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

crofter said:


> Feed bags make a workable soft inner hive cover too.


They do. I used bags in which I was buying 55lb barley malt grains for my homebrewing


----------

