# Deep Honey Supers?



## dnelson (May 19, 2009)

I would like to know which is better for commercial opperation. Deep supers or mediums. I want to expand a lot not year but have been using mediums for all my hives so far. But I don't want to jump into abunch more mediums without hearing from anybody who is using deeps (commercially). My first year i used all deeps but i only had 2 hives.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I am not commercial but IMHO: 
as long as you are expanding use deeps, because they get beautifully drawn out as a honey super and then can become next years expansion brood comb, or this falls divide filler combs. I never seem to have enough deep brood combs.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

go with mediums. These get heavy enough and if you are handling several hundred to a thousand a day you will soon realize that deeps are just too darned heavy. Most commercial operations I know of use mediums...as a matter of fact I don't know any that use deeps.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

alpha6 said:


> go with mediums. These get heavy enough and if you are handling several hundred to a thousand a day you will soon realize that deeps are just too darned heavy. Most commercial operations I know of use mediums...as a matter of fact I don't know any that use deeps.


He now has TWO hives, so next year he might handle what? Six full deeps? He can always make mediums once he has his numbers up. I am not suggesting using deeps permanently for annual honey crops, just to speed up increase. If I am working by myself, I bring a few empty boxes and I just remove a few frames before lifting them. 
I draw out deeps every year as honey supers and then use them for increase. Wish I did more. I also make divides in July and use the deep frames full of honey in those nucs.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

We throw on deeps for the bees to fill with honey to use on our splits in the spring or to beef up hives going to Calf. But his question was what was better for a commercial operation...that would be mediums IMHO.


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

I did (when I was in the process of expanding) exactly what odfrank describes; I used only deeps for both brood chambers and honey supers, and used the deep honey supers for brood chambers as I needed them. Eventually I got to the point where I'm now at, I run all mediums for honey supers, because as alpha said, deeps are just too heavy when you're handling several hundred a day. Having said that, I do know some commercial outfits that use nothing but deeps for supers; these are usually large commercial operations with several thousand hives, where the hired help are the ones handling the boxes.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

In the Canadian prairie provinces deeps are used almost exclusively. You would have a hard time getting rid of mediums up here.

From a weight perspective, I see the advantage for using mediums. For efficiency in gathering honey and extracting, its hard to beat deeps. If you are planning to expand, using deeps as supers is a great way to get more brood chambers ready before you expand.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Allen Martens said:


> In the Canadian prairie provinces deeps are used almost exclusively. You would have a hard time getting rid of mediums up here.
> 
> From a weight perspective, I see the advantage for using mediums. For efficiency in gathering honey and extracting, its hard to beat deeps. If you are planning to expand, using deeps as supers is a great way to get more brood chambers ready before you expand.


The other day I thought, "boy I wish I had used mediums". That said, all bee auctions i have been too, non had mediums. And when it comes time to sell, I might be hard pressed to sell medium supers.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

Allen Martens said:


> In the Canadian prairie provinces deeps are used almost exclusively. You would have a hard time getting rid of mediums up here.
> 
> From a weight perspective, I see the advantage for using mediums. For efficiency in gathering honey and extracting, its hard to beat deeps. If you are planning to expand, using deeps as supers is a great way to get more brood chambers ready before you expand.


I don't know anyone using mediums here. It is one of those unique differences between U.S. and Canadian beekeepers.


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## dnelson (May 19, 2009)

odfrank said:


> He now has TWO hives, so next year he might handle what? Six full deeps? He can always make mediums once he has his numbers up. I am not suggesting using deeps permanently for annual honey crops, just to speed up increase. If I am working by myself, I bring a few empty boxes and I just remove a few frames before lifting them.
> I draw out deeps every year as honey supers and then use them for increase. Wish I did more. I also make divides in July and use the deep frames full of honey in those nucs.


When I started I had 2 hives now i have 5, and next spring I am planning on adding 25-30. Within 5 years I hope to be at 500.

I like the idea of using some deep supers to put into splits.


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## dnelson (May 19, 2009)

Has anyone noticed the bees filling up the deeps faster than mediums? 

Another thing, do you guys add if they keep filling or being commercial stick with a set amount per hive each year to try to fill. I saw where one guy (don't remember who) uses 2 supers for each hive (1000's) regardless of strong flow.


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## Rob Renneker (Aug 7, 2006)

I used to work for an operation in eastern SD that uses deeps exclusively. On a very large scale, it made it more convienient to only have to deal with one size of super. It was easier to move frames of brood and honey around between the brood nest and supers and made everything go more efficiently, IMHO. The downside was the fact that everyone that worked there a number of years had bad backs and the comb was always dark. My preference (for my situation anyway) is to stick with deeps for the brood nest and mediums for the honey supers.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

I run 8-frame equipment, deeps mostly with some mediums. I like the deeps because as it has been mentioned I then have brood comb for splits. The deeps are heavy but the 8-frame deeps are not quite as heavy as the 10 when full.


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## beeman (May 27, 2009)

We use almost all deeps. We have some mediums and shallows but only 100 or so. I really do love the efficiency when extracting. We run 8-frame colonies however so the weight is not as bad as a ten frame deep.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

My son and I use only deeps. Same with my father, and my grandfather. My Great grandfather used a hive that was comprable(sp?) to a deep. I know of NO back problems in the family due to the lifting of supers. 

Roland 
Linden Apiary, Est. 1852


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

my dad does not have any back problems either, he conveniently has to go back to the truck, or stoke the smoker, or find his hive tool when those deeps need to be removed  Just kidding dad! He pulls his share of deep and medium supers too but i'm sure he prefers the mediums which is why I think we have them.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

The initial cost for deeps is a little less than for mediums. 2 deeps are cheaper than 3 mediums, but honey storage is comparable.

When extracting, you only have to extract 2/3 the frames to get equal amounts of honey extracted when using deeps versus mediums, unless your extractor can hold more mediums in a load than deep frames. But even then, you have less handling time with 2/3 the frames by using deeps.

Either have a good back, or add sufficient supers so the bees will stovepipe the honey, rather than packing each box full. A 10 frame deep box with 6 of the 8 frames full of honey is comparable in weight to a full medium.

A strong back is still a big asset. Or plenty of good help to do the heavy work for you.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I don't like averaging more than 30 lbs of honey per super, so weight really isn't that big an issue. The times I fall behind in supering and the average push up to 45+ lbs--I start rethinking deeps.


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## BusyBeeFarm (Oct 9, 2009)

I'm a commercial operator in Alberta, Canada. I run 2000 hives in honey and pollination and we use deeps for everything. Eight frame with spacers for honey supers and no spacers with nine frames in the brood chambers. It is easier to run with all deeps instead of running two different types of boxes or more. I would also rather pull two heavy boxes jammed out than three mediums. And if the boxes are light we will carry two half boxes to the truck instead of one. I grew up in a commercial honey operation, worked for another 5000 hive honey producer for nine years where at the most we only had five but usually four people pulling honey all summer long and I've owned my own business for two years and my back is sound and strong. I know I've lifted milllions of pounds with my back and it still works. Why be afraid of the work, that's what beekeeping is and commercial beekeeping is even more. Sum it all up though, in my opinion, deep boxes are more efficient for a business and efficiency is very important to a commercial operation.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Using deeps really shows an advantage over mediums in the extraction house. When you compare deeps frames vs medium, your handling the same amount of frames per day, but your going to extract more honey in a day using the deep frame. Simply put.

I see the advantage with mediums, not only being lighter in weight. I can see pulling honey much more efficiently in lower flow areas. Not having to add a deep to fill, 
here where I beekeep, we have real heavy honeyflows, and it takes a matter of weeks to take our crop. On a hive per average I am looking at taking between 5-7 boxes a season of production. As Allen mentioned, they can fill up pretty heavy if not taken soon enough. Handling that extra equipment needed to equal that production in mediums looks like a lot of work to me in the honeyhouse. In my operation, the pace of the honey pull is set by how fast we can turn the boxes over, less boxes and frames to handle with more honey pulled means a faster honey flow,

Thats just how thing look here anyway,


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

We know folks that do both. We run story and a half brood chambers and medium supers. Deeps have an advantage of cost for capacity and interchangeability, but the weight is an issue, especially when you are pulling many in a day. They hold more honey but you can put less of them in radial extractors, so that is a wash. We can get more story and a half on the truck to CA than a load of doubles so that is an important consideration if pollination is in the cards. While I suppose you could still run deep supers with a story and a half, I don't know anyone that does.

For expansion the most economical way is to use deep supers and convert them into new brood boxes as you expand. This will give you an idea of how heavy picking up multiple deeps can get and you can decide if you want to run all deeps.
I know very few beeks that don't suffer from wear and tear eventually. It is good to work hard, but you have a better chance of working pain free longer if you work smart. 
Sheri


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## pahvantpiper (Apr 25, 2006)

Lots of great comments I won't repeat. One thing I've noticed using both deeps and mediums as supers is that the queen stays out of the mediums a little more than the deeps.


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## dnelson (May 19, 2009)

Ian said:


> here where I beekeep, we have real heavy honeyflows, and it takes a matter of weeks to take our crop. On a hive per average I am looking at taking between 5-7 boxes a season of production.


Man that is alot of of honey for that many hives! I'd like to go up to canada and see one of your operations. I don't think I will ever see that much honey down here in Indiana.

I worked in the carpenters union for awhile so I would like to think the weight wouldn't be an issue. I usually don't use queen excluders with my mediums, but someone made a comment about the queens going into the deeps easier. Do you guys with 1000's of colonies use excluders?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

dnelson said:


> Do you guys with 1000's of colonies use excluders?


We do. If we didn't it'd take longer to pull, we'd probably lose more queens and we'd often have to wait too long for brood to hatch. We wouldn't get done early enough to get them ready for California.
Sheri


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

From a different perspective some people are using all mediums, mainly due to weight of handling I believe. There are several commercial beeks down here going that direction but this is a low flow part of the country. 

One downside to a deep/medium combination is the market, supplies and labor for medium nucs is not favorable. 

I use the deep/medium combination because the weight and also it is about right for winter stores in my area. With SHB it is now critical to keep every square inch covered with bees if temperatures are favorable for SHB larvae.

I rotate frames into medium supers to be drawn and then down into the brood chamber medium before the are culled after a few seasons. 

Deep frames have to go straight into the brood chamber to be drawn. I'd prefer to be dropping drawn frames in instead but extracting deeps is so much more time consuming with my equipment.

One technique that has worked is to overwinter with a deep over a medium. In the spring instead of reversing the boxes I will pull the medium and replace with a deep on top with 2 or 3 drawn frames. This give me a double deep expansion in the spring to get deeps drawn out. They are then split and a medium added above the chamber is added for the rest of the season. Going into winter the medium will be capped out with honey and pollen and the deep will be capped out on the sides with a brood nest in the middle. At the right point the medium is moved to the bottom so that it is ending the winter empty with the brood nest up in the deep to start the cycle over again.

Deep frames are kept fresh by constantly siphoning off frames to nuc's. The only margin reducing culling is the overaged medium frames that are stripped for wax. i still get the efficiency on honey extraction of using all mediums. Any honey stored in deeps is used for nuc production: cell builders, mating nucs, spring splits, etc or is used for wintering (we don't extract our fall flow - it generally tastes too bitter).


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

From time to time I get tierd of using excluders, or sometimes I forget to bring enough, so I super up hives without,
and everytime I am reminded why I use excluders!
I dont know how these guys here do it without. It takes soo much time to sort brood where I want it, realy slows things down,


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Here's another thought, for almond pollination:

Move into the almonds with singles, bottom super with a MDS of honey for feeding, move the MDS to the top and move out of the almonds.
Regards,
Ernie


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