# Follower / Divider board sealing



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JustBees said:


> Spotted this design, solves a lot of problems.


Do give proper credits.
What you found has been long discussed.
Here is the original source - the public web site of @little_john .


BRITISH NATIONAL-DADANT


----------



## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

little_john said:


> However, it occurred to me recently - why not employ exactly the same method used to create a flexible seal at the sides, to create a flexible seal at the top as well?


Why not a seal on the bottom as well?


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Lee Bussy said:


> Why not a seal on the bottom as well?


Because it's intended purpose was as a 'thermal curtain', rather than as a divider - hence that board had a 1 1/2 to 2-inch gap at the bottom. As Greg keeps repeating ... Divider Boards and 'Follower' Boards have very different purposes, and different construction. Divider Boards need to be bee-tight, other boards need not be - and in my opinion, ought not to be..

I'm not a fan of divided hives - I did have one once, and most of the colony of a venerable old Queen (of which I was very fond) abandoned her in mid-winter, to join the young queen in the adjacent section. When I noticed that hive wasn't flying any bees during a warm day in Winter, I took a look and discovered that only a few hundred bees were left - and a serious snow-storm was forecast within the next few days. This became known as 'The Beast from the East' - storm-force winds together with driving snow - direct from Russia.
So - I quickly cobbled together that 'thermal curtain' - dummied-down what was left of that colony, ensured there was honey and piled on lots of fondant, then inserted a heater-frame. Bags of insulation on top. The temperature was set above clustering temperature, and held like than for the next 2 or 3 months. The queen survived, and went on to produce several more daughters.

That Dual Deep Long Hive was duly cut in half, and is still giving good service - but now as two completely separate beehives. No more shared/divided hives for Yours Truly. 
LJ

PS - forgot to add ...

Checkout: http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beekxx.htm - 4rd item down - Bonnier's experiment which showed that a full-sized brood comb is just as good as a Follower Board in practice. Counter-intuitive or what ? But. I still think I'll stick to using my partition boards for the time being ...


----------



## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

LJ what is a "heater frame"?


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

G3farms said:


> LJ what is a "heater frame"?


Something like these:








Raise bees indoors over winter?


Strewth - look at that price ! (You must be rich :) )...LJ :D I looked some more and got this idea that terrarium heater mats just might work. Cheap too. That idea of warming the dummy frame is great, LJ! Like! I could just do that also; duct tape the warmer pad to the plywood follower...




www.beesource.com












Raise bees indoors over winter?


A lot of this is a moot point if "winter bees" have not been produced by this queen. These bees are fed well as larvae, and do not have to forage nor feed younger sisters. For us in OH, at least NE OH, the bees that are alive in the hive after Jan are the capped brood that emerged last, when...




www.beesource.com


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Greg beat me to it - thanks Greg 

What is shown in that thread was indeed the origin of the idea - what I actually used on the occasion referred-to follows ...

A heater-frame is nothing more - as it's name suggests - than a frame with the potential to act as a heater. How such devices are constructed is up to the individual of course - I simply took a bare foundationless frame, added a sheet of aluminium to which was bonded (with JB-Weld) a 25-Watt rated power resistor the value of which was selected such that it would produce between 10-12 Watts (at 100% duty-cycle) with the low voltage transformer I had available.










It worked well, the temperature being held at around 26 deg.C (high 70's F) towards the top of the reduced-size cavity (and inside the thermal curtain), thanks to a PWM controller - despite sub-zero temperatures persisting for a protracted period.










'best.
LJ


----------



## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

little_john said:


> thanks to a PWM controller


... a PWM controller? Isn't that anti-heretical?!


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

little_john said:


> Greg beat me to it - thanks Greg
> 
> What is shown in that thread was indeed the origin of the idea - what I actually used on the occasion referred-to follows ...
> 
> ...


great idea LJ
did you put the frame right on the edge of the cluster, 1 frame out, against the wall?
Did you find a sweet spot for it?

A for the idea and follow thru.

GG


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Lee Bussy said:


> ... a PWM controller? Isn't that anti-heretical?!


Nah - the real heresy can be found in disposable consumer electronics. I was brought up in the days of triode valves as big as jam-jars; all passive components hanging in mid-air attached to tag-strips. *Everything *in those days could be recovered and re-used. Nowadays we see last year's computers on their way to landfill - still working perfectly ok, just no longer able to run the latest over-bloated operating system.

These days I wear two hats - one is minimalistic woodworking: recycling pallet wood into beehives etc. The other hat relates to 1980's era computing - Intel 8085, Zilog Z80 etc., especially when used as controllers. .
"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be."
LJ


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Gray Goose said:


> great idea LJ
> did you put the frame right on the edge of the cluster, 1 frame out, against the wall?
> Did you find a sweet spot for it?
> 
> ...


Thanks.
To be perfectly honest, this stuff was put together very rapidly and installed in something of a panic, as I didn't know for certain when the approaching storm would arrive, and - being on England's east coast, we were due to be the first affected. But I do remember that the heater-frame was placed next to the thermal curtain, with the aluminium sheet facing the combs. I remember doing that because - with wax next to a heater - I needed to remind myself that whenever possible bees like to keep their combs at a higher temperature than that I was planning to use. Also, I needed to run the cable underneath the thermal curtain, out through the entrance, and back up to the controlled electrickery supply which was housed within the hive's roof-space. (Dual Deep Long Hive)

Looking back, it was a complete lash-up, but one which worked ok. Would I ever do that again ? Only if a similar circumstance were to present itself. Our usual winters are not long enough or severe enough to justify installing such heaters - but - if I lived in the northern US or Canada, then I might be tempted to provide each colony with 2 or 3 hours of non-clustering temperature every few days - around 2 or 3 a.m. (to discourage flying) in order that they could re-locate onto fresh stores before clustering again. But - this is only theoretical, and may of course be completely unnecessary. 
'best,
LJ


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

little_john said:


> Thanks.
> To be perfectly honest, this stuff was put together very rapidly and installed in something of a panic, as I didn't know for certain when the approaching storm would arrive, and - being on England's east coast, we were due to be the first affected. But I do remember that the heater-frame was placed next to the thermal curtain, with the aluminium sheet facing the combs. I remember doing that because - with wax next to a heater - I needed to remind myself that whenever possible bees like to keep their combs at a higher temperature than that I was planning to use. Also, I needed to run the cable underneath the thermal curtain, out through the entrance, and back up to the controlled electrickery supply which was housed within the hive's roof-space. (Dual Deep Long Hive)
> 
> Looking back, it was a complete lash-up, but one which worked ok. Would I ever do that again ? Only if a similar circumstance were to present itself. Our usual winters are not long enough or severe enough to justify installing such heaters - but - if I lived in the northern US or Canada, then I might be tempted to provide each colony with 2 or 3 hours of non-clustering temperature every few days - around 2 or 3 a.m. (to discourage flying) in order that they could re-locate onto fresh stores before clustering again. But - this is only theoretical, and may of course be completely unnecessary.
> ...


Well since we are on this topic, sorry OP.
I have also theorized that a Saw tooth wave type pattern be used to "over winter" the bees, with a heater, need some warm days to move up the comb but also need more cool days to cluster as normal , I was considering a reverse saw tooth pattern IE from "cold to warm" is somewhat fast 1.5 days, then taper back to cold slower 4.5 days. Also have a Zener effect where at say 10 degrees it comes on and at 20 turns off. so big picture never go below 10 degrees and once a week ramp up to 40F outside the cluster, for 24 hours, then the 4.5 day ramp down. I like the nite idea, had not thought of that. My grandad spoke of "if below -10 for > a week " the outer layer of bees fall to the floor as they have been too cold for 2 long, hence the week cycle. IMO this was "in hive temp" as the insulated hives I have had in the very cold do not have this dead bee issue.

I was simply going to use a light bulb (40 watt) under the SBB with a piece of black tin over the bulb, as the radiator and to block the light.

GG


----------



## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

I built a long/lang to fairly tight tolerances, My follower board fit nice.
After use, the hive has shifted (humidity changes I assume) the follower board binds up and moving it pisses off the gurlz.
I had trouble with bees getting behind the follower board and dying so I have been thinking of a way to seal it up but still have it easily moved.
I was wandering down a mental path with a two piece board and a wedge to release tension holding it in place.

Did the bees propolize the vinyl to the body?

A wedged board may be better as it might be easier to break any propolis.

I would tighten up the hive if the follower board would move easily, 
there are a few frames that the bees emptied out when I moved them into this hive that I have not removed.


----------



## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

little_john said:


> The other hat relates to 1980's era computing - Intel 8085, Zilog Z80 etc., especially when used as controllers.


I cut my teeth doing assembly on the 8086, and Z80, and did a lot of controls work on the ... crap, was it like 65000? Something like that. Been a minute. I'm doing mostly ESP32 these days for my projects since they are so cheap, some of the new ideas have something to do with beekeeping just to stay on topic.


----------



## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I am wondering why the follower needs to be tight? In my deep hive I now use a follower that has space below and around it. The bees seem to see the extra space as the 'family room', a place to hang around in, eat snacks if they are available and generally laze about but they don't build comb in it if they have enough space in the main hive part.


----------



## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Well then why have a follower board at all?


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

JustBees said:


> Well then why have a follower board at all?


My take on that is to curtain off essential volume where the bees need to control the temperature and perhaps most importantly the humidity. Maintain the warm humid "bubble"
Opening at the bottom does little to affect the upper bubble but does allow for Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide exchange.


----------



## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

This might not be the thread, but I’m sure there is one. Can someone explain to me the magic of a follower board or point me to a thread where it’s been covered? A search gives me a BUNCH of hits, most so far are admonitions that followers and dividers are different.


----------



## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

AFAIK apparently a follower is not sealed, and a divider is.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

A divider separates two colonies in the same box so must be completely bee tight and seal off pheremones. A follower board enables air conditioning and effectively indicates the colonies active boundaries. Bees can wander beyond but the queen would not. Frames with stores on placed behind follower boards could be robbed out but usually would not be built upon.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> I am wondering why the follower needs to be tight? In my deep hive I now use a follower that has space below and around it. The bees seem to see the extra space as the 'family room', a place to hang around in, eat snacks if they are available and generally laze about but they don't build comb in it if they have enough space in the main hive part.


the follower would not need to be tight, mine is "snug but bees get around it.
A divider board where we have a queen on each side needs to be "queen proof" or they will fight.
bee proof is a big help or in winter the bees may join the queen with the best pheromones and abandon the other , and exhaust the food on one side, starving it out. while the other freezes out.

the follower helps to keep the cavity the size the bees perceive as "just right"
too small they may start swarm motions, too big and patrolling and guarding may be too cumbersome.
recall the book on the 3 little bears, same concept here.

I also feed out frames behind my non bee proof follower. normally partials and crystalized.
I also if not feeding hang a couple frames there, if when they start to build it is "time" to add space.

In winter if you want some air exchange then a space works, it you want air tight then no space would be the goal.

it depends on what you are using it for.

GG


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Lee Bussy said:


> This might not be the thread, but I’m sure there is one. Can someone explain to me the magic of a follower board or point me to a thread where it’s been covered? A search gives me a BUNCH of hits, most so far are admonitions that followers and dividers are different.


you may be over thinking it.
it is a flexible side.
so you can have a 4 frame, 5 frame, 6 frame, 7 frame, 8 frame, 9 frame, and a 10 frame hive space in the same box.

GG


----------



## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Ah, so a follower is sort of "magic", relying on "psychology" where the division board is effectively a separation? Is this similar to putting extracted supers on over an inner cover, and the bees clean them out but don't store more in there?

I assume then that they would not normally build comb on the other side of a follower?


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Lee Bussy said:


> Ah, so a follower is sort of "magic", relying on "psychology" where the division board is effectively a separation? Is this similar to putting extracted supers on over an inner cover, and the bees clean them out but don't store more in there?
> 
> I assume then that they would not normally build comb on the other side of a follower?


I have seen them build and fill comb behind the follower.
I have seen nectar added above the inner cover with hole.

a good follower would have the bees perceive the boundary is there and work the comb on the bee side.
if/when that is not enough , the bees will go thru any hole to keep working.

this can be used for example late season you add the last super, but you do not want the hive to fill and swarm, so you add a second over the inner cover with hole. if they fill the top super they "can" expand into the one over the cover.
Same with a loose follower and a frame behind it, if/when they start on the frame behind the follower they "want" more room.

if you make the follower more like a divider then you must be on top of the space needs or they could swarm.

the snugness is the lever for you decide -vrs- they decide.

either will work , each may have different features.

GG


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think temperature and time of year will influence how easily they are contained by follower board. Probably also how fully or sparsely developed the colony is within the follower board boundaries. If the workers decide to annex the outlying territory behind the follower 🗝 - - - - - - - - >>>>>>>>>>>>>🐜


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

The most rudimentary and yet effective follower boards are made just like so (pictured).
This is for example how my "student" has his 6x6 setup done in the double-deep 10f equipment (per my genius instructions). LOL
It works.
Don't overthink this.


----------



## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

The way the system tries to tag these pics automatically is funny sometimes:


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Lee Bussy said:


> The way the system tries to tag these pics automatically is funny sometimes:
> View attachment 66836


But also a good reminder to watch what you are attaching - don't wanna put out there something you don't want.
Thanks for the reminder LBussy.

BTW, did you change your user name @Lee Bussy?
What is the process there?


----------



## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

GregV said:


> BTW, did you change your user name @Lee Bussy?
> What is the process there?


I did - I just asked.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

JustBees said:


> Well then why have a follower board at all?


Bees can either be producers or consumers. An enlarged brood-nest six weeke or so prior to the commencement of the main flow will ensure there is the *maximum number* of foragers available to take full advantage of it. But - maintaining the same size brood nest thereafter will result in the existence of an *excessive number* of foragers after the flow has ceased or has dwindled to a minimum. Most of those foragers will be non-productive, and thus become consumers of the honey harvest.

Use of a Follower Board is the most efficient method of dynamically adjusting the size of the brood nest during the season, and of reducing the size of the colony's cavity prior to the onset of Winter. 

Another useful feature of the Follower Board is that it functions as a Queen Excluder, such that during colony-size reduction, all that is required is to place behind it brood combs which are to be cleared. Emerging brood will then re-join the main colony, without any further brood being raised within those combs.
'best
LJ


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JustBees said:


> Well then why have a follower board at all?


One of the classic uses of the follower board - early spring brood nest management.

You compress the brood nest using the boards while all the non-essential stores are placed outside of the boards.
This way all the available bees can keep the brood warm while they can get stores outside the conditioned space as needed.

Like the pictured where the boards are marked; the nest is reduced to 5 frames with possibly one honey frame included.
There are plenty of additional stores available for the colony development outside the nest.

Once this setup is done in March they can be left alone for 1-2 months (except for occasional watering).
In cold days they will contract into the boarded area.
In warm days they may expand and bring food from outside.
Later on any extra bees simply spill outside the boards as the nest becomes congested.

Completely automatic colony expansion in cold spring (without worrying if the expansion done too early or too late) - afforded by long hive/follower board combination. In classic long hive management you ought to know this.


----------



## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Lee Bussy said:


> The way the system tries to tag these pics automatically is funny sometimes:
> View attachment 66836


Remember when they said computers will make your life easier?


----------



## oldsap (May 1, 2016)

Division boards are nothing new, the picture is from 1920 Dadant System of Beekeeping. If I took the time I could find a picture from a much older book. In the summer I don't bother with the cloth edges but if using in the winter I would. Or would use a styro foam division board made to fit really tight.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

oldsap said:


> *Division boards are nothing new*, the picture is from 1920 Dadant System of Beekeeping. If I took the time I could find a picture from a much older book.


Seeing as the picture shown in post #1 of this thread is from my own website, I feel obliged to comment with regard to the above rather scornful post.

I deeply resent the suggestion being made that something 'original' is being claimed. If you had taken the trouble to click on the link given by Greg in post #2, you would have found that on that webpage full credit for this style of division board is given to Charles Dadant, together with a copy of the same photograph you have posted, along with it's source. Your post is thus simply a repetition of that information.

Division Boards are indeed nothing new: no-one is suggesting otherwise. A tight-fitting adjustable division board is mentioned and described within Langstroth's second (1863) Patent in which he acknowledges that such boards had already been in use for some time within moveable-bar hives, and as such his Patent claims do not extend to those particular boards. It would appear that various styles of division boards had been in use from at least 1840, possibly earlier.
LJ


----------



## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

little_john said:


> the picture shown in post #1 of this thread is from my own website


LJ, Does the pvc banner material move easily in the hive? I used strips of a flexible foam recessed into my frames. The plywood on the follower board is cut with about 1/4" gap on the sides. The foam seals up that 1/4" gap.(I need to find a picture) The issue I have is the bees propolize the foam to the extent that it seizes to the walls. Have you found the banner sealed boards difficult to move?


----------

