# African Honey Bees- How to Kill them?



## Jer733 (Oct 5, 2008)

I have a hive of bees that are completly unmanagable.

I pinched all my queens last night in my other 4 hives without any issues. When I opened this hive after heavy smoking (and in a full suit, taped shut) I got thru 3 of the 9 frames before I couldn;t take the stings thru the suit and heavy shirt underneath.

Ended the afternoon taping the entrance shut hoping they will all die.

That may take longer then I want to wait, but who knows.

I am not completely green or anthing, done several swarm and cut outs, had bees for a while and always wear suit. 

Just a bit taken aback at how wild these were.

Any suggestions on killing the bees but not contaminating the equipment and maybe allowing the comb to be reused later by other bees?

Or suggestion on working these to get the queen out so I can re-queen this strong hive?


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Move hive to different location in yard and the older field bees and usually the more aggressive will fly back to the original spot. The next day after moving might make it a little easier to find queen. Go to commercial forum and there is a thread on ammonium nitrate.


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## Superdog (Apr 22, 2008)

A can of ether... also known as engine starter will kill them pretty quick. And it will evaporate from the hive leaving no residue behind.


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

If you want to kill them use soapy water which will asphyxiate them. Spray it on them. It shouldn't harm your hive and frames. If you want to subdue them, take some slumgum (the wax and cocoons left over from your solar wax melter) and place the slumgum on top of your smoker material once you have lighted it. The odor of burning cocoons seems to put my hives into a sort of stupor for a couple of days. Demoralizes them so to speak. No guarantee but it worked for me.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Ahb*

Soapy water is how the pros do it. Definitely do not use starter fluid around lit smoker! Ether doesn't work as well as rumored anyway.


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## Jer733 (Oct 5, 2008)

*Ahb*

Thanks for the suggestions.

I think I will try spliting the hive up into NUCs and using the soapy water on aggressive foragers and if all else fails, spray em all.



Jeremy


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

u can use a vacuum and suck them in itopcorn:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've never killed a hive. Even when they were psycho...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm


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## dhood (May 26, 2008)

If they are really that agressive, you better be ready when you go to open the entrance back up. Even calm bees can get pretty testy when closed up for periods of time.


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

Mike Bush's "Divide and Conquer" method is a great one.

Also gives you a day or so to take a break in between stings.....


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I put a spray bottle of soapy water in each hand and side the cover back slowly spraying as I go. I've heard of putting dry ice above the colony. 

dickm


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Split them. The best way is on a nice nice day while the foragers are out, take the hive somewhere away from the orginal point. Use smoke and sugar water. Then break them up into nucs. 

The other option is to use a smoke up box which is a box that has many slits in it with thin board with window screen attached. You can or can not use a queen excluder between the smoke up box and the top deep. Place all together and light up your smoker. Smoke the **** out of them through the lower entrance. All the bees will go up to the smoke up box and then you can shake them into to a new hive or into nucs. 

If smoke is taking you too long, try bee go. Smells bad but it gets the job done.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

What does the soapy water do? Kill them?


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

I would leave it taped up. When dark and cold, put an empty super above the inner cover and place a 5lb block of dry ice. Put the lid on and check back after a day. They should all be dead. The dry ice melts into CO2 and is heavier than air. This should kill them and leave ZERO residue. You may need to tape the super to the brood box to keep the leaks to a minimum.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Soapy water works like a charm. Doesn't contaminate the comb either.


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## mudhoney (Mar 31, 2008)

Fuzzy said:


> I would leave it taped up. When dark and cold, put an empty super above the inner cover and place a 5lb block of dry ice. Put the lid on and check back after a day. They should all be dead. The dry ice melts into CO2 and is heavier than air. This should kill them and leave ZERO residue. You may need to tape the super to the brood box to keep the leaks to a minimum.


dont they use CO2 to make shook swarms or packages? If you took the dry ice off after a short while wouldnt that leave the bees staggering a bit? Im just asking i ve seen somethinmg similar on youTube?:s


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## marcros (Jan 8, 2009)

Petrol down the feedhole at night. Obviously not with a smoker anywhere near.

Shame to have to do so, but sometimes necessary.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

There are other ways to approach this. I hate to see things die.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

<<<<I hate to see things die.>>>>>

I do too but being a beekeeper entails some responsibilities. Do you want to see a dog or a child or someone elderly dead? Do you want the drones from this colony to pollute the area? Re-read the description of how psychotic this hive is! Splitting helps but with new queens it still takes 6 weeks or so for the old bees to die off. There is a further responsibility to the beekeeping community at large. A stinging incident that reaches the media would do a thousandfold more damage to other beeks than the value of one colony.
Kill these bees. Do it today. The location won't support agressive bees. To me this is a big no-brainer. 


dickm
Thinking some of those no-brainers are my fellow beeks.


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## hsbcapt (Mar 31, 2008)

A piece of dry ice and tape the hive shut. Will kill the bees and not harm the comb.


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## Jer733 (Oct 5, 2008)

*thanks*

Many thanks to all.
I will try some dry ice later tonight after it gets cooler.

I hated to come to this as well, but I promise you if you have never seen a hive of AHB's you have not seen angry bees.

Good nectar flow now in the avacado groves next door too, hate to see them late this summer in my hills where it gets a bit dry and no flowers to speak of.

This is only a single brood box too.

I had read Mr. Bush's tips on a hot hive, but got to thinking about the drones, laying worker posibilitys.... Destroy and move on.

Have been blessed by many swarms this year, all of which are requeened. Will be grateful for those I saved.

Jer


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Jer,

Please post the outcome of your dry Ice plan. I am sure that there are others who will be interested in how it works out.

Thanks -- Fuzzy


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Chef Isaac said:


> What does the soapy water do? Kill them?


Yep, sure does. Did it to a hive years ago that was way out of control. Extremely defensive and no doubt a high percent of AHB genes. As Dick said, it's irresponsible to let a hive of bees like this go another day. They're insects.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Dickm:

That is assuming one does not think those genes, at least some of them, might be somewhat useful. 

So a crazy defensive hive..... so just kill it? That is like going from A to Z withouse looking at the options in between. I would first split and requeen. 

But that is just me. Call me stupid, crazy, stupid or whatever but to me that is a logical step. [edit by mod]


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## hankdog1 (May 17, 2008)

Well here is a suggestion if you have a freezer big enough. Put them on ice for a few days in the ol' deep freeze. Won't contaminate anything and you can reuse all the equipment.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Soapy water works like a charm. Doesn't contaminate the comb either. 

But it's not approved as a pesticide for that use...


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

hankdog1 said:


> Well here is a suggestion if you have a freezer big enough. Put them on ice for a few days in the ol' deep freeze. Won't contaminate anything and you can reuse all the equipment.


If that don't kill them are they survivor stock?:lookout: Coldness won't kill the bees:doh: It was well below zero for days here this last winter and some left behind are still kick'n.


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

I find all this talk of killing bees quite repugnant. How can we as beekeepers talk of killing them?

I feel I have a responsibility to try every thing in my power to fix the problem. I commend those who advocated other methods instead of killing them off.

At this time of year, there is no reason to kill them. Queens are readily available. MB's divide and conquer methods work pretty well. I have used the "move it to a new spot" method too. Sometimes you have to do it all.

If you are getting stung (and nobody likes that), then get better equipment. I paid $200 for the "Breeze" suit, and I've never been stung once through it no matter how psycho the bees are. So you see with a better suit, or methods the bees can be saved.

Now that I said all that -- I once had to kill a hive. It was fall, and queens were no longer available. These bees had almost no stores, and I had no where to go with it. I felt even if I could have gotten a queen, they would not have survived the winter dearth anyway. I did not want to pinch the queen and risk combining them with another hive. They were so mean I was afraid they'd kill my good queen. I had a real hard time doing it, but felt it was more humane that they should die quickly instead of slowly. I knocked all the bees off the combs and sprayed them with soapy water. I was able then to feed the small amount of honey to other bees and reuse the comb.

So I'm not saying it should never be done, but only as a last resort. We as beekeepers have lots of tools to fix this problem.


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## Jer733 (Oct 5, 2008)

*Outcome*

All- 

They have now survived 2 separate Dry Icings.
First one- They had a screened bottom I forgot about.
Second- Managed to turn the whole hive over and put the excluded with another 5 lbs of dry ice on that with a super and cover on top and walked away. Tried to tape shut but this is where doing this a few times "learns ya". Soapy water and Duct tape do not mix. Do not spray hives with soapy water then try to tape up! Tape will refuse to stick to the wet and soapy surface.

Anyway, after the second time yesterday AM, I checked in the afternoon and they were still alive and extremely mad. So I sprayed then dumped soapy water on them and hopefully ended it.


Just to let everyone know my situation. I have a fairly new Dadant heavy hooded coveralls and heavy gloves. Never had a bee get inside. I am not going to go out to buy a Brazilian Suit for $300 so I can split up this hive. 

Why I chose to kill vs being run out of my apiary in a suit and never coming near without being taped up until all of these are acceped and/or die off...
-African bees are much more likely to refuse queens. 
-Workers can reject queen and start laying Africanized drones.
-I live in an area we have plenty and no one wants more of either.
-Although in a rural area, I have a woman, small boy, animals within 1/4 mile of these so this is a no brainer for me
Also, a Africanized queen will sometimes wait outside on a Euro hive late in PM, after hive smell is on them the Afro queen will go in an kill the Euro and begin laying. The Drones are faster, Queens are stronger and once a hive establishes itself and gets large, it is very defensive.

I am in no shortage of bees around here either; there are feral hives and swarms everywhere right now so it is not worth it to anyone.

If buckets of soapy water do not kill these spawn of insect hell, I will consider them mutated and able to survive beyond what is acceptable in our world and take the up the ancient writs and chant holy sacraments while I burn them with kerosene and a match.


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## Brenda (Nov 23, 2006)

In Illinois we are inspected and state law says any Africanized hives be destroyed. 
So far we've not had any problems, afaik.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The traditional method has always been sulfur smoke.


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## Terry Small Jr (Aug 31, 2008)

Some friends on mine (Chaparral Honey, 11,000+ colonies) mark a mean colony with a red stick. If it's still mean on the next visit they cover it with a big plastic garbage bag and give it about a 10 second shot of starting fluid under the bag.


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## standman (Mar 14, 2008)

Just a word of encouragement--Thank you for making the tough decision. When I was little, we had to euthanize some animals. It was always taken care of by my dad, who treated the animals respectfully and performed his duty as painlessly as possible. I learned that this kind of action is what "grown ups" do, and only when necessary.
I love animals. I love bees. I pick up the ones that come up short of the hive due to a heavy load of pollen and put them on the landing board. I rescue the ones I find in the watering trough. I brush every one off the top of the hive body before I set the super down on top.
But we have to be grown ups, and do the right thing, even when it hurts. If these bees have magic genes, they are not the only source. There are too many good bees out there to put up with bad ones.


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## Terry Small Jr (Aug 31, 2008)

Ditto to what standman said. Everybody here obviously loves bees. We would never want to put them down, but sometimes we must. If an Africanized colony were to get a hold of an elderly person or a child, or just some guy riding by on a bike, that unfortunate bystander could be killed.

Sometimes being a responsible beek requires us to do something we really hate to do. The safety of the public outweighs the emotions of the beekeeper.

I hope I made it clear that this is something I would never want to do, but would if I thought I had no other choice. As much as I love bees, I can't let them put people in danger.


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## Jer733 (Oct 5, 2008)

*It is Done.*

*IT IS DONE!*

Liquid dishsoap and water.

Took two times :doh: as I did not use enough the first time.

~1/2 gallon top off and just pour thru the frames.

The Dry Ice did not work, but may have worked better if the hive had been wrapped with a trash bag or pallet wrap.

It was certainly not my finest hour, but to all of you with the many suggestions I thank you.

Jer


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

Like shooting a horse with a broken leg...it makes you feel horrible but its the only thing to do. (never done it thankfully I'd probably be sobbing like a baby)

I'm glad it didn't come to chanting...that would have been weird. Mean bees gotta go, Africanized or not. I'd have done the same thing.

Rick


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Terry Small said:


> Some friends on mine (Chaparral Honey, 11,000+ colonies) mark a mean colony with a red stick. If it's still mean on the next visit they cover it with a big plastic garbage bag and give it about a 10 second shot of starting fluid under the bag.


We've tried this, after about two hours the bees mysteriosly came back to life, in the back of a truck, in a resturaunt parking lot, 400 miles from home.


the teaspoon of dishsoap in a gallon of water in a 2 gallon plant sprayer works exceptionally well. The bees are soaked quickly so don't fly and dead (suffocated by what amounts to insecticidal soap) in 5 minutes.


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## zardiw (Mar 25, 2009)

Superdog said:


> A can of ether... also known as engine starter will kill them pretty quick. And it will evaporate from the hive leaving no residue behind.


Starting fluid is mostly heptane nowadays...has just a little ether in it if any at all.......z


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

franktrujillo said:


> u can use a vacuum and suck them in itopcorn:


If you do this you must make sure you use a Kirby or similar model that sucks the bees through the impeller before depositing them in the bag. Most models do not do this and you just end up with a bag of live and rather angry bees.

I don't like killing living things, either, but this hive sounds like it would be put in the same category as a vicious dog. I like dogs, but some are just bad news.


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## bnatural (Aug 10, 2008)

Hobie said:


> Most models do not do this and you just end up with a bag of live and rather angry bees.


Rather??? Yes, and it was rather windy in New Orleans during Katrina.

Sorry, could not resist.

Bill


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

bnatural said:


> Yes, and it was rather windy in New Orleans during Katrina.


A tad breezy, yes...


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Hobie said:


> If you do this you must make sure you use a Kirby or similar model that sucks the bees through the impeller


Shop vacs tend to have a baffle at the end of the hose to direct stuff downward into the tub. Squishes incoming bees quite effectively.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Shop Vac*

Just be sure to empty next day. If you know what I mean.


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

*Re: Shop Vac*

Bump:
Jer73 did you then reuse the comb and the soapy water treatment ? I went trough the exact same scenario this week took me 3x tries . The yard is still not quiet , but I did manage to get quite a lot of the drones and the queen . I was thinking of spraying the frames with clean water after they had sat for a few days buttoned up in the sun ?


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