# My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees



## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

I don't really have a lot of time to spend on my bees. Because of this I have lost several of Italian hives.
I got a hive of Minnesota Hygienic from a friend. They are just slightly more aggressive than Italians, but its barely noticeable.
However they are so tough. I split my Minnesota Hygienic hive so I have 2 now. My 2 Italian hives died off, one just disappeared and the other died off(maybe froze).
I still have the 2 Minnesota Hygienic hives and they are going strong. I really like them and will probably go 100% Minnesota Hygienic from now on.
They corral any hive beetles and keep them in a corner.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

I don't have to worry about hive beetles but mites yikes. Did you do any mite washes to see how they handled them?


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

Dan the bee guy said:


> I don't have to worry about hive beetles but mites yikes. Did you do any mite washes to see how they handled them?


I have checked them with a white board and don't see any mites. I haven't treated them in 2 years and they are fine. They grow strong in the spring very quickly.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Cyberman said:


> I have checked them with a white board and don't see any mites. I haven't treated them in 2 years and they are fine. They grow strong in the spring very quickly.


Out of sheer curiosity, who was the breeder?


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

Cyberman said:


> I have checked them with a white board and don't see any mites. I haven't treated them in 2 years and they are fine. They grow strong in the spring very quickly.


Statements like this make me concerned when it comes to new beekeepers reading and following it without more background info.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

Cyberman said:


> I have checked them with a white board and don't see any mites. I haven't treated them in 2 years and they are fine. They grow strong in the spring very quickly.


Somehow I suspect this will not end well. I hope I am wrong.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

Update:
Another spring is starting. Here in SC the flowers are blooming. I have checked my MH hives with a white board and don't see any mites. They have half a dozen hive beetles corralled in a corner. My MH bees are strong. I split my original MH hive last summer, the 2nd is doing well also. 
I started 2 Italian swarms last spring, neither made it through the winter.
It would be nice to see others post of their experiences with the MH bees, but all I'm seeing is doubting Thomas responses, people with no experience raising MH bees making skeptical comments.
In summation, they are doing great without anything other than occasional feeding. I don't use pollen patties because hive beetles lay eggs in them. Instead I use a teaspoon and sprinkle dry pollen power on top of the frames. This has cut down on the hive beetles.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

I still want to see a mite wash or at least a sugar roll. Up here in the north woods I have two months of cold weather before we get spring flowers our long winter makes mite control very important. At least I don't have hive beetle.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

I started this thread to see if anyone else had experiences with MH bees to share. I didn't start it to prove anything to anyone. I'm not selling anything. LOL
I was just writing of my experiences and hoped to see others with MH bees comment here about there experiences. Apparently nobody here has MH bees. Try them if you don't have time to treat and treat and treat. Good luck all.


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## herbhome (Oct 18, 2015)

Cyberman,

Thanks for posting this. I've contracted for two MH nucs this spring to see how they do in my locale.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

herbhome said:


> Cyberman,
> 
> Thanks for posting this. I've contracted for two MH nucs this spring to see how they do in my locale.


Send me a PM. I have some good sources, especially for instrumentally inseminated MH queens.
I am in South Carolina. We have everything here that kills bees. I have had excellent luck with MH bees. 3 years in a row I had Italians die off. But The MH bees have thrived. Take care and good luck.
.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

I'm glad you found bees that work for you I've not found any that can do it in my cold long winter I still have to treat if I want them to live till spring.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

I grew up in the upstate New York farm country so I know the feeling. My dad and grandfather always had bees but back then there were no mites.


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

Cyberman, sending you a PM about your MH source.


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## Buzz-kill (Aug 23, 2017)

Cyberman said:


> I started this thread to see if anyone else had experiences with MH bees to share. I didn't start it to prove anything to anyone. I'm not selling anything. LOL
> I was just writing of my experiences and hoped to see others with MH bees comment here about there experiences. Apparently nobody here has MH bees. Try them if you don't have time to treat and treat and treat. Good luck all.
> Please close this thread. Thanks.


You know that you are posting on Beessource don't you? Here you must prove everything to the satisfaction of the provocateurs that haunt these forums.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Cyberman said:


> I started this thread to see if anyone else had experiences with MH bees to share. I didn't start it to prove anything to anyone. I'm not selling anything. LOL
> I was just writing of my experiences and hoped to see others with MH bees comment here about there experiences. Apparently nobody here has MH bees. Try them if you don't have time to treat and treat and treat. Good luck all.


Cyberman - people are interested in the details of how your MH bees are doing. I don' see anything wrong with that.

And, you post to ask for information from others, but, you won't provide information yourself. The forum works because it is a two-way street . . .

JMHO


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

shinbone said:


> Cyberman - people are interested in the details of how your MH bees are doing.
> JMHO


I appreciate your opinion, every person has one.
In answer to your inquery:
My bees are thriving. The hives are roaring with health and have had no treatment except for oil filled beetle baffles and feeding (over 2 years). I don't use pollen patties because they are hive beetle farms. I use a teaspon and spread a thick layer of pollen powder on top of all the frames (top box). They devour it.
As I mentioned earlier I bought my bees from a 90 year old beekeeper who couldn't do it anymore. He kept his bees in several different fields. Its possible that my bees are not 100% MH. In any event they are treatment free for 3 years and thriving with health and vigor.
Another guy posted in the TF area about a buckfast and feral cross that was TF for years.
*Yes, there are treatment free bees out there.* Other people here have them too. Enough said.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Cyberman said:


> Its possible that my bees are not 100% MH.


You think?

Further, how did you know the two swarms were "Italian"?


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> Further, how did you know the two swarms were "Italian"?


Because my local bee club bought several hundred 3 LB packages from an apiary in Georgia that supplies Italians.
DUH!!!
The phrase, "You think" is rude and confrontational.
I won't reply to any more posts asking me to "explain myself". My bees thrive untreated and yours don't. Sorry for you.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

Buzz-kill said:


> You know that you are posting on Beessource don't you? Here you must prove everything to the satisfaction of the provocateurs that haunt these forums.


Yes, I am beginning to notice that. Its really too bad.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

ooops . . . link won't work . . .


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Minnesota Hygenics have been around for quite a few years: If they were indeed head and shoulders above others in regard to mite tolerance or resistance, then I think you would not be getting any grilling. On another forum there is quite a lengthy recent thread with the theme that "extraordinary claims, require extraordinary levels of evidence to substantiate them or create acceptance". That just is as it is.

I have read that some experiments with them showed their cell uncapping to be so vicious that colony growth and honey production was compromised. Producing bees with just the right amount of this tendency to be efficient yet effective was an ongoing balancing act. I expect this has been worked out though.

I haven't seen a whole lot of recent mention of them.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Cyberman said:


> Because my local bee club bought several hundred 3 LB packages from an apiary in Georgia that supplies Italians.
> DUH!!!
> The phrase, "You think" is rude and confrontational.
> I won't reply to any more posts asking me to "explain myself". My bees thrive untreated and yours don't. Sorry for you.


Oh... so they were packages. Odd that you called them swarms... DUH!!!

How do you know my bees don't thrive untreated? Or anyone else's on here for that matter...


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> Oh... so they were packages. Odd that you called them swarms... DUH!!!
> How do you know my bees don't thrive untreated? Or anyone else's on here for that matter...


Oh my goodness. The spelling and grammar corrector is here. You think I used an incorrect term?
They were packages when I bought them. Once they made it to winter they were swarms. When I started this thread they were dead swarms.

You are a very rude and confrontational troll. I will have no further contact with you. I have been told there are people like you on this board.
I started this thread to share experiences with other people that have MH bees. If you have no MH bees then go to another thread to *troll*.

I just read some of your posts. It seems that you are trolling everywhere. You had nothing intelligent to say to anyone, just complaints and cut downs.
You are an expert at nothing but trolling.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

"At least I don't have hive beetle."
Do not get as relaxed as I did. Not one for a couple of years, slimed to hell one summer. I blame it on nearby package bees and I need absolutely no proof; so there.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Saltybee said:


> "At least I don't have hive beetle."
> Do not get as relaxed as I did. Not one for a couple of years, slimed to hell one summer. I blame it on nearby package bees and I need absolutely no proof; so there.


Interesting that you can suffer from SHB in state with Winters as nasty as what Maine gets


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Buzz-kill said:


> You know that you are posting on Beessource don't you? Here you must prove everything to the satisfaction of the provocateurs that haunt these forums.





> Perhaps the title of this thread should be changed from "Treatment free at all costs - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany"
> 
> to something like "Treatment free perhaps - the chronicle of a beekeeper from South Germany transitioning to treatments"


So you think this comment of yours is no provocation? IPM to be used as a strategy in a difficult situation where bond can´t be done is another reasonable path to have a second surviving bee yard and stock the tf bee yard with bees which need no treatments.
Bet you did not read my thread before commenting.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

They usually do not overwinter, they can though. 
Fresh batch of beetles are shipped in every year with packages. My bad, thinking I was safe.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)




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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Cyberman said:


> Oh my goodness. The spelling and grammar corrector is here. You think I used an incorrect term?
> They were packages when I bought them. Once they made it to winter they were swarms. When I started this thread they were dead swarms.
> 
> You are a very rude and confrontational troll. I will have no further contact with you. I have been told there are people like you on this board.
> ...


I'm sorry, I figured that someone who is supposed to have been keeping bees since 1967 would 1) Know the difference between a package and a swarm. 2) Wouldn't call a colony a swarm. 3) Wouldn't still be buying packages if they were capable of learning anything about bees and beekeeping.

One of my checklist items for first year beekeepers is to never take advice from someone who has been keeping bees for more than 2-3 years if they are still buying packages (or swarms or whatever you 50 year beekeepers call them). But, you know, some of us are really REALLY slow learners.

If I'm a rude and confrontational troll that makes you a willing, rude, and confrontational *victim*.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

Cyberman said:


> You are an expert at nothing but trolling.


nah, he not even a good troll. toughen up buttercup.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

crofter said:


> Minnesota Hygenics have been around for quite a few years: If they were indeed head and shoulders above others in regard to mite tolerance or resistance, then I think you would not be getting any grilling. On another forum there is quite a lengthy recent thread with the theme that "extraordinary claims, require extraordinary levels of evidence to substantiate them or create acceptance". That just is as it is.
> 
> I have read that some experiments with them showed their cell uncapping to be so vicious that colony growth and honey production was compromised. Producing bees with just the right amount of this tendency to be efficient yet effective was an ongoing balancing act. I expect this has been worked out though.
> 
> I haven't seen a whole lot of recent mention of them.


I utilized inseminated Minn Hygenic breeders for a couple of seasons but it was years back. I had very solid luck with the first generation daughters mated to a wide mix of canadian buckfast, smr and other survivor type drones. For comparison purposes, I'd categorize them as a northern type italian bee. At least at that point in time they leaned much more that direction than say carnica which isnt really surprising when you understand that she pulled a large part of that genetic material from migratory commercial operations that happened to be based out of Minnesota. 

Definately a nice overall bee, strong spring build up if needed for pollination, good honey production, good wintering ability but needing slightly more stores than I prefer and solid hygenic behavior. I dont recall anyone ever saying they were highly mite resistant at least back then. From what I saw the daughters mated to strong mite tolerant stock were able to carry helpful amounts of resistance but nothing to extent of pure survivor stock from which vsh was developed yet they held the desirable commercial characteristics which smr/vsh in pure form did not. Basically you would see a daughter colony that could make one-two years untreated pretty easily but not some magic bullet against varroa. 

Perhaps others have worked with them in the years since then and more resistance has been incorporated. I'd suspect she pulled the one line that was submitted for incorporation into vsh from the minnesota hygenic pool but I could be wrong.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Cyberman and Buzzkill we realize it is your superior beekeeping skills and experience that allows you guys to keep your bees alive while the rest of us idiot beehavers fail so it is really an affront to your egos if we ask stupid questions as to how you have managed to do this where thousands of idiots like us and perhaps Randy Oliver have failed.
Johno


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

BigBlackBirds, 
Thank you for sharing your experiences with MH bees. Many are finding the MH bees to be a very solid strain. They are hard to find now and Glen Apiaries has stopped selling them. I have studied about the buckfast and read in another thread on this site about a strain bred with ferals that is very resilient. He called them Buckfast Wild.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?342508-Great-success-with-treatment-free-beekeeping&highlight=buckfast+wild


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

BBB 
+1 vote for keeping to the subject.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

I havent kept up with what is widely available out there in recent years. With Glenn's out of the picture the best bet for looking at Minnesota Hygenic stock might be to directly contact Marla Spivak and see if she is still maintaining it and where mated or inseminated stock might be available. She was very helpful in years past when I contacted her. 

I suspect most folks who are actively testing various bees have moved towards vsh, ankle biter, Saskatraz types while Minn Hygenic might be falling off the radar


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

Wow, im reading post and enjoy the back and forth of issues. I'm curious about all bees, and this thread is part of my learning. I'm New, and new to bee source. I see some that are downright rude , and I don't understand why.?? Aren't we all in this to promote our hobby, or business of keeping bees , alive and healthy. No matter how ya do it??? But love to learn more about the mn bees ...


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Let's all just hug, the bs is easier to take that way.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

The only thing special about the Minnesota hygienic is they are good at cleaning. I suspect that you have the right mix of vsh in those Hygenic bees that make them so good for you now go buy a lottery ticket.


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## BeeHoosier (Feb 21, 2016)

I agree it is much more productive and insightful to converse back and forth without pointed comments that are bound to rile people up (on either side of the argument). Obviously it is hard to gauge the tone of some comments via the internet, but it is so much nicer when people comment with helpful information instead of accusatory comments and mean spirited sarcasm. I have learned so much on here and I know there are some long time beekeepers who have a vast knowledge that probably get sick of some of the comments from some of the newer beekeepers (with myself being one of the newer ones), but I really appreciate the help and kindness that most people on here show...you just have to ignore some of the seemingly harsh comments and I just kind of shrug them off as somebody having a bad day...lol. Overall I think the MH stock seem to be not talked about too much on here so I am always interested in learning more and hearing experiences.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

Richinbama said:


> Wow, im reading post and enjoy the back and forth of issues. I'm curious about all bees, and this thread is part of my learning. I'm New, and new to bee source. I see some that are downright rude , and I don't understand why.?? Aren't we all in this to promote our hobby, or business of keeping bees , alive and healthy. No matter how ya do it??? But love to learn more about the mn bees ...


Here is a link that might help you out in your search for info on MH bees.
https://www.beelab.umn.edu/sites/beelab.umn.edu/files/new-direction.pdf
There's a lot more info out there but here's a good start.


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## edzkoda (Aug 9, 2014)

I do not post that much. Really not good with words. But a few things to think about. Many folks here do a great deal of reading, and sharing information. Take me for example. Fairly new, not established, getting bees from three people. You have no idea if the people or the bees will do you any good. Everyone is looking to keep updated.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Cyberman, thanks for the link. There is recent research( from reading Bee-l) that indicates that FK hygenic bees are not pre disposed to varroa hygenic behavior, but vsh bees are predisposed to fk hygenic behavior. Your bees may be both since they probably open mated with feral stock that already had some vsh traits. Who knows. All that matters in my book is that your bees are still alive. I think in the search for a resistant line of bees, we must first look at survivability, especially when other hives in the same yard crashed and died. I strongly suspect that the genetic mutations necessary for the bees to become truly resistant will happen in small yards. The problem is we small beekeepers do not do the type of monitoring necessary to make claims based on any evidence other than that the bees appear to be thriving while treatment free. A very subjective statement that means a wide variety of things to different people. Couple that with an apparent lack of objective criterea and you end up with people operating more on emotion and less on scientific reasoning. If we want to develope a TF line on bees, we need to start with folks like you with their observations and do further inquery, not subject the beekeeper to ridicule and prejudgement. If your bees are hygenic and survive several more years, you will have the last laugh. If they don't, then there is a good chance that luck had an important role in the earlier success. Do not get discouraged just because some of us have heard this song before and are jaded.

Remember, WD 40 is so named because it was the fortieth attempt at the formulation.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

JWPalmer said:


> The problem is we small beekeepers do not do the type of monitoring necessary to make claims based on any evidence other than that the bees appear to be thriving while treatment free. A very subjective statement that means a wide variety of things to different people. Couple that with an apparent lack of objective criterea and you end up with people operating more on emotion and less on scientific reasoning.


Good observation. IMHO, this is a fundamental and near universal problem within the TF community (with a few noteworthy exceptions). When that is coupled with an unwillingness to answer questions (which is anyone's right, of course), Randy Oliver's "the easiest person to fool is yourself" rather than "a successful TF beekeeper" is what comes to mind.

And, if the TFer's stated goal is "I am not trying to persuade or convince anyone," then, don't be upset when no one is persuaded or convinced.

JMHO




.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

The thing about posting on a public forum is, if you are successful with something as complicated and difficult as having honeybees for any length of time without treatments, is it is usually taken as ether bragging, being somewhat delusional, ignorant or have a conflict of interest. *And with good reason because it many times is the case. The ignorance is just not apparent to the poster yet. Lord knows I've posted things years ago I cringe over now, reading the simplistic bliss of my inexperience at that time.
But those with more experience with beekeeping & reading Beesource threads over the years have seen it before, many, many times and the outcome is pretty typical.*

Just like those predictable threads EVERY November: "My bees are DEAD!"
And the questions posed to the OP:
'Did you treat?" answer-No
'Did you requeen?' - No
'Did you feed? '- No,*But they looked great last week!

When folks are successful, experienced beekeepers are happy for them, but guarded because we all know it won't last forever with some kind of intervention. Queens get older and slow down, conditions change both within the hive and outside the hive.

The danger with a topic like yours is, beginners see statements claiming success, naming a certain strain of honey bee and they will get a _unrelenting craving_ to order those queens, especially if they have a fancy name. They'll feel like all they need to do is get a few of these and their troubles are over!
It does do a disservice to those enthusiastic, but somewhat gullible*folks to post a success story without specific details or facts.

Details matter. They are critical to understanding no only issues with bees but understanding exactly why you may currently be successful. Give the credit or blame to the wrong thing, your hives are living on borrowed time and you risk not being able to reproduce your success down the road. Even worse, you also risk leading other beekeepers down the wrong road. That can cause the unintended consequences of a tremendous amount of losses and labor for them.

With open mating and no genetic testing available to tell exactly what line queens are, naming lines is just guessing at the lineage. You can keep track of the origination of your queens and the possible exposures they've had to the local drone population. Anything more detailed than that is just a guess. 

Just ask my buddy Giorgio


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Nailed it.

Also; I've totally misunderstood good and bad advice and not known the difference for years.


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## MichiganMike (Mar 25, 2014)

shinbone said:


> Interesting that you can suffer from SHB in state with Winters as nasty as what Maine gets


Hey Shinbone, I am in Michigan and I have beatles also.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

MichiganMike said:


> Hey Shinbone, I am in Michigan and I have beatles also.


Now you guys are really scaring me!

Maybe it is our perpetual low humidity that keeps those nasty things at bay.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Having shb and having them at epidemic proportions are two different things.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Well . . . since I don't have SHB for no apparent reason, I will name my daughter queens "Colorado Beetle-Bust'n Queens," and sell them. And if people asked for data to prove their efficacy, I will start the "SHB Treatment Free Forum" where no criticism would be allowed, and angrily say I don't have to prove anything to anyone. 

I bet I would make a fortune.








.


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## Ruthz (Sep 13, 2011)

Lauri summed up the snarky-poster problem beautifully. A big Thank you to her for kindly explaining the phenomenon. There is a lot of unintended misleading that happens, and some folks get pretty burned by it.

The questions I have are: 1 Do you know what generation of queen you are dealing with, because if the queen has been replaced several times in three years, the claimed apparent Minnesota Hygenic-ness of the queen might be from local drone stock. In which case, your MH brand queen may be geneticall much different than someone else’s MH brand.

2. What are your mite counts by sugar roll or alcohol wash over the season? Bottom board counts are notoriously inaccurate because many mites disappear with the sick bee that doesn’t return. This doesn’t mean the hive isn’t suffering from mites. And sometimes you can get a ton of mites on a bottom board because the bees are actively grooming them off each other. Also, monthly mite checks can give clues to the rate of build-up and possible mechanism of mite resistance. (Mite Bombs, or Mites with chewed off legs are examples)

3. What everyone wants to know, including you, I would guess is, “does this work for other people too?” Your post asks for other’s experiences. I’d pay $100 for a queen that would eliminate mites, or live peacefully with them. But the truth is that most claims that are supported with regular mite counts, good record keeping, and adequate controls show only moderate improvement in the mite situation when tested in multiple environments. 

4. The local environment is crucial. I thought I was the world’s best beekeeper my first 5 years. None of my hives died. Later I learned that my early success was likely due to the fact that I had a completely isolated hive in 2001, where they simply weren’t exposed to mites, and the forage was plentiful. That wasn’t skill, it was luck, and very hard to replicate these days.

So please enjoy your success while it lasts. Ask questions to learn as much as possible, and if you can bring yourself to do monthly mite counts, that information could be really helpful to the rest of us. It might show a cool build up and elimination pattern, it might show that the might levels are always kept low, or it might show mite levels through the roof, but somehow the bees remain healthy. That info furthers the field AND has the bonus side effect of silencing the doubters.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Saltybee said:


> They usually do not overwinter, they can though.
> Fresh batch of beetles are shipped in every year with packages. My bad, thinking I was safe.


Sorry salty your 100% mistaken they survive very well anywhere in a live hive.....


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

So, *hoping to get the thread "back on topic"*, is there anyone else that would like to share their experiences with MH bees?


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

The thing about your bees they will need a new queen at some time in the future. And I just hope that there are hives with good genetics for them to mate with so you will continue to have hives that will survive. For me I'm going to bring in some vsh bees this year. I just have to try to get some bees that can keep the mite count down my best producing hive had a mite count over 30 when I took off the honey. You can always check how Hygenic your bees are you just need some liquid nitrogen and freeze a little brood if they clean it out in a day they'll be good ones to make queens from.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Dan the bee guy said:


> You can always check how Hygenic your bees are you just need some liquid nitrogen and freeze a little brood if they clean it out in a day they'll be good ones to make queens from.


sorry to stray off topic but the experts are getting away from using freeze-killed brood removal as a selection criterion:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2018.1426350

"We conclude that removal of FKB is not a good estimate for hygienic behavior towards Varroa mites in unselected stocks."


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Up in NE OH, a beek who posts here occasionally has used Minnesota Hygenic open mated in his area to satisfactory success. He can tell his own story about bee management, and it is instructive.... but here is a story from me. I had 3 queens descended from a swarm who alighted in my pine tree in 2015. And I had the MH-feral bee from a nuc I purchased from the nearby beek. I got 2 daughters of hers successfully mated, so I had 3 queens from my original swarm, and 3 with MH-feral hygenic genetics.

I had trouble getting OAV to work. It's my sole treatment, aside from drone culling and splits. In short, I was accidentally treatment free this summer until Oct-Nov. 

Fast forward to fall - mite counts with alcohol wash at 20+ for all 6 hives. 2 of my swarm daughters died in Nov-Dec, one more this past Feb. So far, MH descendants are the ones left standing. I guess I'll be splitting from them this year. I have figured out the OAV issue and they have been treated - so late - better next year. I would not say these are varroa-proof bees. I have not worked with Italians or packages, but many first year beeks in my bee club who were trying to follow the rules have lost their bees this winter. They get packages. Just sayin'...Tho many have good luck with their packages.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> sorry to stray off topic but the experts are getting away from using freeze-killed brood removal as a selection criterion:
> 
> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2018.1426350
> 
> "We conclude that removal of FKB is not a good estimate for hygienic behavior towards Varroa mites in unselected stocks."


To stay on topic I stated what Minnesota Hygenic is if you want vsh you must open brood cell and count the reproductive mites. I also said he must have the right mix of hygene and vsh.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

Cyberman,
any updates on the progress of the colonies? Interested to hear how the season went.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

yeah the whole world's watchin'


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## AJ Farms (Nov 22, 2011)

I bought in 50 of the Olivarez Min Hygienic/VSH queens this past spring. I really like the way they built up. some of my best yards they averaged 200 lbs while the other stock was around 150lbs per hive. I do find they are a touch more aggressive than my older stock , but also only noticed they got testy in the fall (mid-late September). Mites were pretty low for us this year in general so I can't say they are carrying lower mite loads , but maybe next year I can see better. All looked good going into winter real nice cluster sizes and good amount of stores. If I need any early queens this spring I would buy them again.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

I started this thread on 01-13-2018, asking for members to reply with their experiences with Minnesota Hybrids.

Update:
I have 6 hives now, all from the same stock. I have never treated these bees for mites. Today I saw one of my bees dragging a light yellowish pupa out of the hive. It seems they are still doing their job quite well. 

Does anyone else have experiences with Minnesota Hybrids they would like to share?


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## cbay (Mar 27, 2017)

Don't have any but they are popular in different parts of Missouri and hear they do well. Couple big nuc suppliers here use them.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

If you're tired of battling varroa, the first step in getting the upper hand on the mite is to forswear the coddling of wimpy bees with synthetic chemicals.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

So you agree that treating bees with naturally occuring chemicals, such as oxalic acid, formic acid, thymol, etc. is ok? Good thing because at first it sounded like you were suggesting the best way to stop battling varroa was to let your bees die.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

JWPalmer said:


> So you agree that treating bees with naturally occuring chemicals, such as oxalic acid, formic acid, thymol, etc. is ok? Good thing because at first it sounded like you were suggesting the best way to stop battling varroa was to let your bees die.


The word "*forswear*" means "agree to give up or do without (something)".
Basically I said, *"Stop" the coddling of wimpy bees with synthetic chemicals.* The whole object should be to breed bees that can exist without us. Not keep making our bees weaker and weaker using more and more chemicals. Many are making the mites more resistant each year rather than the bees. 
I haven't treated my bees for mites in several years. Most of my hives haven't been treated at all, ever.

My worst threat is still SHBs, but I'm still fighting those with *beetle jails*, filled with mineral oil, using apple cider vinegar (as beetle bait).

If you do have a weaker variety of bees then you must treat them or lose them. That is a choice each beekeeper made when they chose their strain.

But this thread is about *Minnesota Hygienic bees*. 

I keep hearing, "MH bees don't produce as good as Italians." Wrong. I'm not just giving an opinion here.
One of my stronger hives swarmed a month ago into my swarm trap. It has filled 2 deep supers with drawn comb and the top super is almost full of honey right now. They are also dragging an occasional pupa out the entrance so they are still doing their job and filling hives with honey quickly. 
Because I only have MH bees and no other bees in my neighborhood, when they requeen its pretty reasonable to believe they are maintaining all their traits.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Cyberman, I know the meaning of forswear. I also know the meaning of synthetic. The point I was trying to make is that even strains of bees that show enhanced resistance to varroa like the Minnesota Hygienic, may need a helping hand once in a while and that it is possible to provide that relief without using amitraz, a synthetic chemical. I am pleased for you that you are TF and have been for some time. I am hoping to get a few Perdue Ankle Biters next year and give them a try. But it will be in an apiary that is otherwise treated so I hope to avoid mite bombing them in the fall.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

Sorry, I misunderstood your reply. 
I have heard a lot of good things about *Perdue Ankle Biters*. I hope you update us on how they work out for you.
I am also hearing a lot about an apiary that has bred their own strain of Ankle Biters, through years of test breeding.
They seem to have a pretty good program.
Check out: 
Carpenters Apiaries/Better Bees CCD/Mite Resistant Queens

Here is a good read if you like the scientific methods.
Choosing your Troops: Breeding Mite-Fighting Bees


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Hey guys I am having a problem with my bees, just cannot seem to reach my goals no matter how hard I work at it. Maybe if I stop working on my bees and stop molly coddling them as you say I could get closer to meeting my goals. My goal for the last 3 years is to get my hive count to 25 hives, the problem I have is that I am at 36 at the moment but to make matters even worse I have 44 nucleus hives I produced due to swarm prevention and my 36 colonies are still producing brood and bees right up the yazoo and I do not have any nuc boxes left. Maybe I will have to grow some more nucs in buckets. Now my honey crop I can handle and dispose of it through the year but what am I to do with all those bees. Maybe I should take the advice on this thread and leave them to take care of their own problems and I might be able to get my colony count down to reasonable levels. I realize i have been doing things all wrong but what to do! what to do.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

What strain of bees are they? Italians?
Nucs are selling for a pretty good price right now on craigs list, if you wanted to reduce that way.
If they're producing bees like crazy put more honey boxes on them until the honey flow is finished.

Is there a reason for not making the nucs into full hives?
I would put some of the nucs into 8 frame hives until you reach the number of hives you want and sell the remaining nucs. 
You can get cardboard nuc boxes for like $9 each. This will pay your beekeeping costs, for new 8 frame boxes etc.

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Written 2018



Cyberman said:


> I don't really have a lot of time to spend on my bees. Because of this I have lost several of Italian hives.
> I got a hive of Minnesota Hygienic from a friend. They are just slightly more aggressive than Italians, but its barely noticeable.
> However they are so tough. I split my Minnesota Hygienic hive so I have 2 now. My 2 Italian hives died off, one just disappeared and the other died off(maybe froze).
> I still have the 2 Minnesota Hygienic hives and they are going strong. I really like them and will probably go 100% Minnesota Hygienic from now on.





Cyberman said:


> I have checked them with a white board and don't see any mites. I haven't treated them in 2 years and they are fine. They grow strong in the spring very quickly.





Cyberman said:


> I started this thread to see if anyone else had experiences with MH bees to share. I didn't start it to prove anything to anyone. I'm not selling anything. LOL
> I was just writing of my experiences and hoped to see others with MH bees comment here about there experiences. Apparently nobody here has MH bees. Try them if you don't have time to treat and treat and treat. Good luck all.





Cyberman said:


> My bees are thriving. The hives are roaring with health and have had no treatment except for oil filled beetle baffles and feeding (over 2 years). I don't use pollen patties because they are hive beetle farms. I use a teaspon and spread a thick layer of pollen powder on top of all the frames (top box). They devour it.
> As I mentioned earlier I bought my bees from a 90 year old beekeeper who couldn't do it anymore. He kept his bees in several different fields. Its possible that my bees are not 100% MH. In any event they are treatment free for 3 years and thriving with health and vigor.


Written 2019:



Cyberman said:


> I started this thread on 01-13-2018, asking for members to reply with their experiences with Minnesota Hybrids.
> 
> Update:
> I have 6 hives now, all from the same stock. I have never treated these bees for mites. Today I saw one of my bees dragging a light yellowish pupa out of the hive. It seems they are still doing their job quite well.
> ...







Cyberman said:


> I haven't treated my bees for mites in several years. Most of my hives haven't been treated at all, ever.
> 
> Because I only have MH bees and no other bees in my neighborhood, when they requeen its pretty reasonable to believe they are maintaining all their traits.



In one post 2018 they are TF for 2 years , in another post from the same year they are TF for 3 years.
Bought from an 90 year old beekeeper, possibly something else than Minnesota Hygienic. 

Originally one MH hive, split 2017 ? 
Season 2018 began with 2 MH hives, one original, one nuc made from that. 
From these two, 4 nucs were made 2018, 2 from each?, anyhow now all together 6 MH hives.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Written 2018
> 
> In one post 2018 they are TF for 2 years , in another post from the same year they are TF for 3 years.
> Bought from an 90 year old beekeeper, possibly something else than Minnesota Hygienic.
> ...


In one post I said "(over 2 years)" and in another I said 3 years.
3 years *is* over 2 years. Not sure the issue you have. Would you like to correct my grammar too? Did I miss spell anything?
Maybe your English translator shows something different.

Not sure why you would say, "Bought from an 90 year old beekeeper, *possibly something else than Minnesota Hygienic" <-- Your words, not mine.*.

That 90 year old guy is is a certified master beekeeper and one of the teachers in our York County Beekeepers Association. 
All he had in his bee yard was MH bees. 
*I don't like being called a liar*. Especially on things that could have been typos.
People like you cause members to avoid this forum and go to others. You should be ashamed.

It seems you're selling Buckfast on your website and view MH bees as competition I guess. http://www.buckfast.fi/

Do you have anything constructive to add or just complaints and grammar corrections?


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

johno said:


> Hey guys I am having a problem with my bees, just cannot seem to reach my goals no matter how hard I work at it. Maybe if I stop working on my bees and stop molly coddling them as you say I could get closer to meeting my goals. My goal for the last 3 years is to get my hive count to 25 hives, the problem I have is that I am at 36 at the moment but to make matters even worse I have 44 nucleus hives I produced due to swarm prevention and my 36 colonies are still producing brood and bees right up the yazoo and I do not have any nuc boxes left. Maybe I will have to grow some more nucs in buckets. Now my honey crop I can handle and dispose of it through the year but what am I to do with all those bees. Maybe I should take the advice on this thread and leave them to take care of their own problems and I might be able to get my colony count down to reasonable levels. I realize i have been doing things all wrong but what to do! what to do.


:lookout: Good problem to have, eh Johno. 

I used Snelgrove boards this year. When the bees made Queens in the top box I split the Old Queens out of the bottom box. It is working so far. 

There are so many bees foraging that when I go outside I panic thinking they are swarming. Also when the Drones leave and return it gets loud, but they make a different sound.

Alex


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Cyberman said:


> In one post I said "(over 2 years)" and in another I said 3 years.
> 3 years *is* over 2 years. Not sure the issue you have. Would you like to correct my grammar too? Did I miss spell anything?
> Maybe your English translator shows something different.


 I was referring to these words of yours "in 2 years":


Cyberman said:


> I have checked them with a white board and don't see any mites. I haven't treated them in 2 years and they are fine. They grow strong in the spring very quickly.


I don´t use language translators.



Cyberman said:


> Not sure why you would say, "Bought from an 90 year old beekeeper, *possibly something else than Minnesota Hygienic" <-- Your words, not mine.*.



Your words to the same thing were:



Cyberman said:


> He kept his bees in several different fields. Its possible that my bees are not 100% MH.



not that much different, eh:




Cyberman said:


> Do you have anything constructive to add or just complaints and grammar corrections?


After this outburst? 



Cyberman said:


> *I don't like being called a liar*. Especially on things that could have been typos.
> People like you cause members to avoid this forum and go to others. You should be ashamed.


No, I have no further comments but good luck.

EDIT:
Making nucs helps the bees to some extent. How much, that would be interesting subject for studies.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

UPDATE:
No mite problems yet. I still haven't treated.

However living in South Carolina my worst threat seems to be the SHB. I have lost hives from these pesky little beetles before. I really hate them.
I've recently been using beetle jails, 2 on each super with good results. I fill the bait section with apple cider vinegar. The beetles seem to be attracted to it.
My bees chase them around and they end up in the traps. 
I have also discovered that the SHB problem is more likely if your hive gets honey bound. The bees don't seem to police the capped honey frames as well as the ones they are still working on.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Cyberman said:


> No mite problems yet. I still haven't treated.


thanks for the update. also using beetle traps here with good results.

please consider chronicling your treatment free experience in the tf subforum.


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Hey Cyberman, how did you hear about the Minnesota bees in the first place? Also, I do commiserate with how you are experiencing the forum. It is probably best to post in the treatment free sub-forum because 99% of the folks in the main forum are going to have an issue with treatment free. You will simply be shouted down due to the sheer quantity of people who disagree with you. Also, also, I agree with a basic point you made earlier. Shouldn’t the ultimate goal be breeding bees that don’t require chemical treatments? The irony is that wild bees seem to have figured this out. It’s when we put them in our boxes and demand maximum honey production suddenly the bees become incapable of surviving on their own????


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

Yunzow said:


> Hey Cyberman, how did you hear about the Minnesota bees in the first place? Also, I do commiserate with how you are experiencing the forum. It is probably best to post in the treatment free sub-forum because 99% of the folks in the main forum are going to have an issue with treatment free. You will simply be shouted down due to the sheer quantity of people who disagree with you.


I have already experienced this. People get an idea stuck in their minds and its hard to dislodge it. Let them keep working their butts off to keep their weak bees alive. LOL.

Where did I hear about the Minnesota bees in the first place? An old beekeeper was selling out his hives because he couldn't do it anymore. He told me they were Minnesota Hybrids.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

as moderator of the treatment free subforum i am quick to remove disparaging and snarky comments posted there when levied from either side of the approach against the other.

here in the main bee forum such rhetoric is tolerated so long as it doesn't involve a personal attack or include profanity.

having success against varroa mites off treatments is more the exception than the rule and our readers are more interested in factual accounts than spitting contests.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

It's good to be an Optimist: "our readers are more interested in factual accounts than spitting contests"


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Saltybee said:


> It's good to be an Optimist...


better to be a realist.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

squarepeg said:


> better to be a realist.


Optimists got us to the moon. Realists said it couldn't be done.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Cyberman said:


> Optimists got us to the moon. Realists said it couldn't be done.


Here is the major, major difference:

* moon project - one-time giant PR project funded by the government where no cost was too large (it was very, very important politically to "beat the Russians")
* did they create a sustainable and long-term moon-bound infrastructure still used today? 
* NO.
* what was the point again? well - to beat the Russians at any cost
* the outcomes that can be just thrown away (the knowledge and experience and bragging points, of course, retained for the future)

* bee project - we are talking of long-term and sustainable bees where no one is no longer concerned of the mites *as if they do not exist*
* no PR, no "Russians to beat", no unlimited funding

In short - a short-term, unsustainable PR stint with unlimited funding vs. long-term and sustainable resolution with NO funding and NO massive PR promotion.

Everyone knows I am firmly in TF camp, all this being said.
But the things must be *long-term sustainable*.

As we very recently have been discussing in the TF sub-forum - T. Selley said it - the most recent iterations of the natural selection already produced bees just as good and better of those artificially selected bees (no sexy marketing names are assigned to those feral mutts, so to sell them - the only difference).
These MH bees are one such artificially created bee that is not long-term sustainable resolution (unless you are able to created a self-sustaining local population around the MH bees - if you have done it then just say so).


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Cyberman said:


> Optimists got us to the moon. Realists said it couldn't be done.


Begging to differ, optimists said shoot for the moon, pessimists said it couldn't be done, realists figured out how to do it.
In the TF bee world, the optimists are the ones that buy package bees and don't treat, hoping that their bees will survive. The pessimists are the ones that treat regardless. The realists are the ones actually doing it and are helping to build a better bee. I wish the TF beeks every success.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> * The optimists are the ones that buy package bees and don't treat, hoping that their bees will survive.
> * The pessimists are the ones that treat regardless.
> * The realists are the ones actually doing it and are helping to build a better bee..


A very good classification, JWP.


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## nhoyt (Aug 26, 2013)

I do not have any MH but I have hear two different stories. They are too good and make hive growth difficult or not good enough. I am still undecided about getting some.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I purchased a few Buckfast queens from Ferguson's in Canada 3 years ago. They have been heavily selected for hygienic behavior using freeze killed brood and/or pin killed brood methods. One of the 4 queens I purchased turned out to have decent hygienic traits but not sufficient to fully protect against varroa and hive beetles. I raised queens from her and have one daughter and several granddaughters mated to drones from my highly varroa resistant queens. They are productive and gentle and excellent honey producers. My point is simple, selection for hygienic behavior as the Minnesota Hygienics have been is not quite enough to keep varroa under control, at least, in my climate. They might work better further north with a longer brood free winter period.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

nhoyt said:


> I do not have any MH but I have hear two different stories. They are too good and make hive growth difficult or not good enough. I am still undecided about getting some.


Good luck, because suppliers of MH queens and bees are very hard to find.

My hope is that anyone with good sources for MH queens and bees would post them here.


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## hagane (Aug 15, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> I purchased a few Buckfast queens from Ferguson's in Canada 3 years ago. They have been heavily selected for hygienic behavior using freeze killed brood and/or pin killed brood methods. One of the 4 queens I purchased turned out to have decent hygienic traits but not sufficient to fully protect against varroa and hive beetles. I raised queens from her and have one daughter and several granddaughters mated to drones from my highly varroa resistant queens. They are productive and gentle and excellent honey producers. My point is simple, selection for hygienic behavior as the Minnesota Hygienics have been is not quite enough to keep varroa under control, at least, in my climate. They might work better further north with a longer brood free winter period.


Curious about this...

Your location reads as Alabama, but you can order bees from Canada to the US now??? I thought you couldn't do that? 

I hope its changed...


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

I agree with this point, too. Let's not make it personal. That has little to do with observation, data, and results.



squarepeg said:


> having success against varroa mites off treatments is more the exception than the rule and our readers are more interested in factual accounts than spitting contests.


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

The one fact I have heard about getting a particular strain of bees. Really really hard to keep the line pure, due to how bees mate and reproduce. You would have to constantly requeen, unless your bees were completely isolated from feral bees or other beekeepers.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Your location reads as Alabama, but you can order bees from Canada to the US now??? I thought you couldn't do that?


http://fergusonapiaries.on.ca/queens-buckfast-stock/shipping-and-pricing

The veterinary import license cost $100 so they are relatively expensive.


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## hagane (Aug 15, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> http://fergusonapiaries.on.ca/queens-buckfast-stock/shipping-and-pricing
> 
> The veterinary import license cost $100 so they are relatively expensive.


So does that mean you can import queens only or also full NUCs also? Thanks.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

Yunzow said:


> The one fact I have heard about getting a particular strain of bees. Really really hard to keep the line pure, due to how bees mate and reproduce. You would have to constantly requeen, unless your bees were completely isolated from feral bees or other beekeepers.


Feral bees are not necessarily a bad thing. Everyone has been looking for that special feral swarm that has survived naturally for 10 years. LOL
They might be the most valuable swarm you could cross with.


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

Cyberman said:


> Feral bees are not necessarily a bad thing. Everyone has been looking for that special feral swarm that has survived naturally for 10 years. LOL
> They might be the most valuable swarm you could cross with.


Theres a guy here that has some living in his porch post for last 20 years, I don't know how I'd get them out.

https://winstonsalem.craigslist.org/grd/d/lewisville-strong-hive-of-bees/6956780186.html


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

Cyberman said:


> Good luck, because suppliers of MH queens and bees are very hard to find.
> 
> My hope is that anyone with good sources for MH queens and bees would post them here.


I purchased a Mn Hygienic Breeder from Mikes Bees and Honey late August. To late to graft off of her this year but will be next spring. He sells open mated queens and breeders.
http://www.mikesbeesandhoney.com/product/7000


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## carrshe3 (Jul 8, 2017)

I would like to ask you how they did during the hot weather and nectar/pollen dearth. THis is my first year with 2 one at my apiary and one a friend has, both hive are experience a huge decreasing foragers and there hasnt been capped brood in the hive in the last 2 weeks


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

I wound up with some of these for 2020.

The queens are OK.

I wouldn't go out of my way to make this purchase again.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

username00101 said:


> I wound up with some of these for 2020.
> 
> The queens are OK.
> 
> I wouldn't go out of my way to make this purchase again.


so did they handle your efb outbreak?


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## mrbratty (Apr 1, 2021)

BroncoVol74 said:


> Cyberman, sending you a PM about your MH source.


Hey I want some of those bees too ! Sick of treating for mites !


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## mrbratty (Apr 1, 2021)

Cyberman said:


> I appreciate your opinion, every person has one.
> In answer to your inquery:
> My bees are thriving. The hives are roaring with health and have had no treatment except for oil filled beetle baffles and feeding (over 2 years). I don't use pollen patties because they are hive beetle farms. I use a teaspon and spread a thick layer of pollen powder on top of all the frames (top box). They devour it.
> As I mentioned earlier I bought my bees from a 90 year old beekeeper who couldn't do it anymore. He kept his bees in several different fields. Its possible that my bees are not 100% MH. In any event they are treatment free for 3 years and thriving with health and vigor.
> ...


Alot of apiaries here in MN where I live only sell the hygienic queens 😁


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## mrbratty (Apr 1, 2021)

BroncoVol74 said:


> Cyberman, sending you a PM about your MH source.


Hey I want some of those bees too ! Sick of treating for mites !


BigBlackBirds said:


> I utilized inseminated Minn Hygenic breeders for a couple of seasons but it was years back. I had very solid luck with the first generation daughters mated to a wide mix of canadian buckfast, smr and other survivor type drones. For comparison purposes, I'd categorize them as a northern type italian bee. At least at that point in time they leaned much more that direction than say carnica which isnt really surprising when you understand that she pulled a large part of that genetic material from migratory commercial operations that happened to be based out of Minnesota.
> 
> Definately a nice overall bee, strong spring build up if needed for pollination, good honey production, good wintering ability but needing slightly more stores than I prefer and solid hygenic behavior. I dont recall anyone ever saying they were highly mite resistant at least back then. From what I saw the daughters mated to strong mite tolerant stock were able to carry helpful amounts of resistance but nothing to extent of pure survivor stock from which vsh was developed yet they held the desirable commercial characteristics which smr/vsh in pure form did not. Basically you would see a daughter colony that could make one-two years untreated pretty easily but not some magic bullet against varroa.
> 
> Perhaps others have worked with them in the years since then and more resistance has been incorporated. I'd suspect she pulled the one line that was submitted for incorporation into vsh from the minnesota hygenic pool but I could be wrong.


Exactly..I have MN hygienic queens and still have to treat for mites so ...


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## Earthboy (May 16, 2007)

Cyberman said:


> Feral bees are not necessarily a bad thing. Everyone has been looking for that special feral swarm that has survived naturally for 10 years. LOL
> They might be the most valuable swarm you could cross with.


Hello, Cy! First of all, don't feel you must prove a negative; instead, just focus on your excellent beekeeping. 

Let go posting and recharge your soul with opulent silence for a while. I have been collecting ferals for nearly 20 years now, and I love them; they did just fine outside the ICU bubble. Have never ever treated them other than using wiper cloth to trap SHB's in my area. 

Let's hear more about MSH so as not to hijack this interesting thread for TF.

Appreciate what you have been and are doing to keep bees for a long, sustainable term.

EB


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

LOL.


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