# No more wiring frames for me



## MattDavey

For the last year or so I have been using bamboo skewers instead of wiring frames. Yes skewers.

I hate wiring frames and the thin skewers don't take long to install. You just have to drill holes in the bottom bar if you don't have a groove.

The skewers are the same thickness as foundation, so comb is fairly uniform. I have been making mostly foundationless frames, only using ice cream sticks for comb guides. The only issue is the occasional hole, which often has a queen cup or two (can you see it?). Though I've seen holes with frames of foundation too. Strips of foundation are working nicely as well.

To install I just turn the frame upside down putting PVA glue in the groove of the top bar. Insert the skewers (blunt end first) then put glue around the part of the skewer that will be permanently in the bottom bar. Push down, then just break or cut the remaining part off.

The comb is quite stable. I haven't used them in an extractor, but you could definitely use them in an extractor the second year. The skewers seem to help in getting them to attach the comb to the bottom bar as well.

It's great for cutting out comb too.


Here's some pictures:


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## Mr.Beeman

Well I'll be a son of a......... Good idea.
Let us know if they hold up to the extractor next season.


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## stan.vick

Great idea, they would work good with the beveled Kelly F frames that do not need a starter strip, think I will try them with a couple of colonies. Thanks for posting your idea.


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## crofter

Looks good! I have wondered if bees would shy away from PVA but it looks like they work right up and onto it. 

Thanks,


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## Robbin

Matt, 
How much does it cost you to make a frame, and how long does it take you. I'm not very handy, but it's hard to come up with the money to expand. I can get rite cell medium frames for 2.65 each, includes shipping. And of course no work. But that's 26.50 for a 10 frame box. I need to add about 20 boxes. next year so it adds up.
Thanks,
Robbin


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## CaBees

Thanks for the hint and pictures too! What do you use to hold the wax strip in?


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## marshmasterpat

I shoved toothpicks into the top and bottom groove next to the strip of foundation, but they are slightly thin, some tended to slide out. I think bamboo verticals would work great to hold the foundation in place. 

Man I am glad people have better imagination than I

Matt - Many thanks good sir.


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## burns375

I used fatbeemans tip of creating an X with fishing line. Kept the comb straight and the bees built comb right over the line. However they never did rear brood in those cells. Got tired of that and moved to plastic foundation. Much faster, easier and no worries about bowed or blown out comb. 

So far no issues with plastic, the bees take to it no problem.


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## heaflaw

Yep, Bamboo Sticks, Corn Dog Sticks, etc: this is a great idea. In doing a quick search online I found that they can be ordered with different lengths, thicknesses, flat or round. Some fun experimenting will be going on in my yard this spring.


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## Kidbeeyoz

Good work for an Aussie lad. Nicely drawn comb.


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## MattDavey

Robbin said:


> How much does it cost you to make a frame, and how long does it take you.


Cost:
Both the skewers and the ice cream sticks are about 1 cent each. So about 5 cents per frame. (2 skewers and 3 ice cream sticks.)

If I use 1" strips of foundation and 2 skewers it's about 18 cents per frame.

Time:
If you include drilling holes it takes less than 3 minutes per frame.

If you use frames with a bottom groove as well as a top groove you could probably do it in 1 minute per frame.


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## MattDavey

CaBees said:


> Thanks for the hint and pictures too! What do you use to hold the wax strip in?


The frame is upside down when I glue it, because the strips are short they don't need support to stay vertical.

If you use full sheets of foundation you can use a cloths peg on the skewer to hold it in line with it. When the PVA glue is dry and you put the frame the right way up the foundation hangs vertically and the bees attach it to the skewers.


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## MattDavey

I've found thicker sticks cause the bees to create three sections of comb. Often each section has different size cells, especially if you use ice cream sticks for comb guides.


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## heaflaw

Do the sticks/skewers not cause the cells built directly on them to be too shallow?


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## MattDavey

As the skewers and ice cream sticks are a similar thickness to foundation, the comb seems to generally be made deep enough for brood. Have a look at the top photo.

You do get some cells that won't be used for brood. But you get that with wired frames as well.

If the frame isn't vertical when the comb is built, the comb can go off to one side. So in that case the cells won't be used for brood.


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## SS1

NICE!! I use all mediums.. but one of those running lengthwise through the middle... hmmmm...


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## Xcfamily

Do you drill goles in the top and push through to the bottom bar? I was a little confused on your explanation. Or, is there no hole drilling if you have grooves in the top and bottom bars. Thanks


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## Colino

MattDavey said:


> For the last year or so I have been using bamboo skewers instead of wiring frames. Yes skewers.
> 
> I hate wiring frames and the thin skewers don't take long to install. You just have to drill holes in the bottom bar if you don't have a groove.
> 
> The skewers are the same thickness as foundation, so comb is fairly uniform. I have been making mostly foundationless frames, only using ice cream sticks for comb guides. The only issue is the occasional hole, which often has a queen cup or two (can you see it?). Though I've seen holes with frames of foundation too. Strips of foundation are working nicely as well.
> 
> To install I just turn the frame upside down putting PVA glue in the groove of the top bar. Insert the skewers (blunt end first) then put glue around the part of the skewer that will be permanently in the bottom bar. Push down, then just break or cut the remaining part off.
> 
> The comb is quite stable. I haven't used them in an extractor, but you could definitely use them in an extractor the second year. The skewers seem to help in getting them to attach the comb to the bottom bar as well.
> 
> It's great for cutting out comb too.


Hello Matt:
It's good to hear that it's working out for you, because after seeing your previous posting about this I made all my deep frames with your method including using Popsicle sticks. Since I make my own frames I drill 1/8th inch holes in both the bottom and top bar after the frame is assembled. I grab 2 skewers at a time and dip their ends in glue, then each one is installed by first putting one end in the bottom bar hole sliding it down far enough to be able to push the other end up into the top bar hole, I push it up through the top bar until it's flush with the bottom bar then snap off the piece above the top bar. By sliding it that extra bit it spreads the glue around and it glues them in solid. I buy my skewers at the "Dollar Tree" it's $1.25 for 80. This method actually strengthens the frame somewhat. Thanks for the idea.
Colino


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

I have used just empty frame several times before when I am short on strips. It works just fine and the queens appear to seek these frames out. I think it is mainly due to the holes and gaps the queen can move thru. Perhaps the fresh wax is attractive also.


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## MattDavey

Xcfamily said:


> Do you drill holes in the top and push through to the bottom bar? I was a little confused on your explanation. Or, is there no hole drilling if you have grooves in the top and bottom bars. Thanks


Up untill now I was drilling holes in just the bottom bar, as I had a groove on the top bar. 

I will be using frames with both a top and bottom groove from now on and cutting the skewers to the right length (all in one go), so then I can just slide them into place.

Lauri has said she also does this and just uses the skewers to jam the foundation into the groove.

I've found comb is built much better with a strip of foundation. Where the ones with ice cream sticks tend to have a hole or passageway left in the comb, down the length of the skewers. It takes some time for them to fill in those areas.


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## bentonbee

In 50 years among the Bees CC Miller used wood sticks also. He did not drill holes in the frames. He simply cut them just short the hight between the top and bottom bars, then to secure these by dipping them for bit in bees wax then someone put some pressure on a board and press the sticks into the foundation a bit. He used 5 or 6 of these 1/16 by 1/16 "splints" on each frame. I plan to try this useing the bamboo sticks.


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## Michael Bush

Kirk Webster uses sticks as well. www.kirkwebster.com


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## Colino

I checked out Kirks website, it looks like some good reading. 
Thanks for sharing Michael.
Colino


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## Kidbeeyoz

Colino said:


> I checked out Kirks website, it looks like some good reading.
> Thanks for sharing Michael.
> Colino


Ditto. Is Kirk Webster the guy that inspired Michael Palmer's nuc system?


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## MJC417

Kidbeeyoz said:


> Ditto. Is Kirk Webster the guy that inspired Michael Palmer's nuc system?


Yes, and was pleasantly surprised when I got a overwintered nuc from Kirk and it was a ten frame hive packed full of bees and brood! That's the hive that turned me into a beekeeper and not a bee haver ! LOL


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## Sticky Bear

Thanks for the post Matt. I will try this and see how they handle our summer temps. By the way an off topic note for you, both my Long hives are doing well in our bitter temps.


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## mark williams

I havn't did a search,But I'd like to get away from using as much foundation as I can.
My question is? I run shallow supers,My extractor has a speed control, If I was to go without foundation & cross wired,Would I sling it all to pieces? 
I've always used full sheets in my supers, of the wired type.


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## heaflaw

Start the extractor slowly and gradually speed it up as the weight of the honey decreases. It works for me, but I still occasionally get an exploding comb.


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## Mike Massey

How do they hold up to the extractor?


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## MattDavey

I still haven't used them in an extractor yet. But if the comb is attached on the sides and bottom and over a year old, it seems to be as strong as wired comb.

These frames are great for making cut comb. 

I've mainly been doing crush and strain with them and it's so much easier to clean up these frames compared with wired frames.


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## Clayton Huestis

Well I made up 80 frames yesterday using this method. I like it allot. Here what it look like:










I used your suggestion of what Laurie does. I use 2.5 skewers per frames. Two for vertical support. I cut one skewer in half and I wedge it into the top groove to keep the starter strip in place. I also kept the tip pieces from the vertical supports when cut and used them to hold the outside of the starter strip. Zero waste from the skewers. You can see what I did here:









For the starter strips I use a 1 3/8" top bar to cut them with a heavy duty pizza cutter. 100 sheets of wax foundation = 600 frames. I have 80-100 lbs of wax to mill into foundation @ 8 sheets per pound= 640 sheets. Cut into 6 strips per sheets should yield = 3,840 ish frames set up this way for next year. I've wired 1000's of frames this is a breath of fresh air for me. Thanks.


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## MattDavey

Cool, looks good.

With the using the strip of foundation, I have one hive in particular that always leaves a vertical gap beside each of the skewers. (Which are great places for hiding queen cells!) So I have now gone to using a half sheet of foundation.

The foundation is cut in half vertically and placed in the frame centrally, so that it covers both of the skewers entirely. I just press the foundation lightly onto the skewers (as well as securing the top.)

This way the gaps are on each side of the frame, and if they are filled with drone comb then it's not such an issue when the frames are in the Broodnest.


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## paullemay

Hey, thank you very much for posting this.
I'm going to try it this weekend.

So just to be clear, I should buy frames with a groove on top and groove on the bottom?

http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/product/FR-811.html


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## MattDavey

Hey Paul. Yes, a groove on top and bottom is the easiest way to do this. Otherwise you need to drill holes for each skewer.


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## lharder

I have had almost 0 failure with foundationless (medium frame) comb in an extractor this year. I put a couple of elastics on new or otherwise fragile not attached comb. Start slowly. Doesn't take much speed to empty out most of the honey.


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## MattDavey

I've been making a few YouTube videos (still getting used to speaking in front of a camera) and here is one about using attaching Wax Foundation to Bamboo Skewers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AAqjEZ9xQU

I have found it better to use 3 Bamboo Skewers as it stops the Wax Foundation from being able to curl. This also allows you to cut 4 decent size Honeycomb sections from each size.

Here is my channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrbAZ1892CxRe0Dv9PQwGyQ/


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## Honeyeater

Cheers mate, did you find any foundation falling off at all? Had a couple that I didn't use a 12v battery to embed into wire, so I just embedded with my thumb like you did, but they fell off in the hive.


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## MattDavey

It has happen occasionally, but you can usually tell if it will come off.

I have in the past put a small lump of wax along the top or bottom bar right where there is a Skewer. To make sure the Foundation is secure between the lump of wax and the Skewer.

But if I make sure that the Foundation has moulded around the Bamboo Skewer, I don't have any problems.


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## SeaCucumber

Why use foundation? If I needed very strong comb, I would use vertical and horizontal supports (skewers and wire) and offset the vertical skewers. Why not use flat sawn wood (paint/tongue stick, etc.) for the starter strip?


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## MattDavey

Foundation simply gives better results. As you can see in my first post I have been using starter strips for years, both wax and wood.

Foundation is definetly better as a starter strip than wood. You get sick of having to fix comb that is not straight or gets joined onto comb on another frame.

The frames with 3 Skewers is quite strong and I haven’t had any issues with extracting those frames.


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## Cariboospeed

If you ever have to take comb out of a hive that is subject of a removal from a house wall or someplace, cut comb to fit a frame and use the sticks to spear right through it vertically and hold it in place.


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## SeaCucumber

I use wood strips. Sometimes I fix comb by changing frame position. 
Aside from a starter strip, is there a way to give them wax to use (without the foundation expense)?
If you use unwaxed floss to wire comb honey, will it get waxed enough?


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## MattDavey

I’ve seen a video of a guy who uses a wood board the size of foundation (with a handle), dips it in melted wax then dips it straight into cold water. Then peels off the wax layer.

Bees will coat anything before building wax on it.


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## JWPalmer

Matt, I have seen foundation blanks made this way on videos, but then the sheets are run through an embosser to put the hexagon pattern onto them.


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## SeaCucumber

How do you make "wax food" that they use to build foundationless faster and with less energy?


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## little_john

MattDavey said:


> I’ve seen a video of a guy who uses a wood board the size of foundation (with a handle), dips it in melted wax then dips it straight into cold water. Then peels off the wax layer.
> 
> Bees will coat anything before building wax on it.


Depends on how it's made:



> Observations made during the study indicated a preference by the bees to use *thin* non-embossed wax sheets to make new combs rather than thick non-embossed wax sheets or embossed foundation. Cells built on combs from non-embossed wax sheets were, however, irregularly arranged as compared to the regular, orderly arrangement of cells on combs developed from the embossed foundation. Beekeepers can therefore reduce costs and make good gains in colony development and production through the use of plain non-embossed wax sheets.
> *From: http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/media/2948/low-cost-foundation-_21_.pdf*


But - making sheets of wax is yet another operation to perform, and no matter how skilled you are, you'll *never* make a sheet of wax as thin as the mid-rib which bees themselves draw. Also - studies have shown that if bees are given a sheet of plain non-embossed foundation to draw-out, they will *not* reduce it's thickness - and so there's no savings to be gained by them recycling the excess wax from what they've been given.

*Conclusion: let them draw-out comb naturally, and at their own pace.*




> *SeaCucumber: *How do you make "wax food" that they use to build foundationless faster and with less energy?


Man - some of your posts are really weird ...

Conclusion: let them draw-out comb naturally, and at their own pace.

LJ


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## MattDavey

Here is a link to my YouTube video on attaching wax foundation to bamboo skewers.
Using 3 skewers is very strong and its much easier to do cut comb or just clean up frames.


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