# Sucrocide Results



## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

I used Sucrocide for the first time yesterday on one of my three hives and got some interesting results. The 24 hour mite drop about one week prior to treatment was 78. The drop after treatment was roughly 2000. I quit counting at 300 and estimated. This is probably conservative because I didn't put the sticky sheet in until about 20 minutes after treatment. A fair number were still wiggling around in the oil. One result I didn't expect was 12 dead adult hive beetles on the sheet. There was no other sign of beetle infestation including no beetle larva.

The other unexpected result was a couple hundred dead bees. It's just a tiny fraction of the hive population, but still alarming. I really think I just drowned them. Afterwards, I read where it should take about 1 quart of solution to treat 2 deep hive bodies. I used more like 2 quarts out of my 2 gallon garden sprayer. I don't think my concentration was too high or they would all be dead. I probably went overboard to get every bee wet including those at the entrance, on the inner cover, and on the ground. Hopefully I didn't drown the queen.

I just experimented on one hive. I'll probably treat my other two soon. Once you get the knack of maneuvering the frames, it really doesn't take more than a couple minutes per hive body -- about 3 seconds of spray per frame side with my particular sprayer.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Steve you need to read the directions on how to determine the out put of your sprayer.


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

I did. The instructions say to measure the time to spray 6 fl. oz. Their example was for a sprayer that takes 16 seconds which corresponds to 2 seconds of spray per frame side to apply the "correct" amount of active ingredient. My sprayer took about 25 seconds to spray 6 ounces of solution. That would correspond to about 3 seconds per frame side. I really don't think it's that critical -- as long as your concentration is correct (3 tablespoons per 2 gallons of water).


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## Randy Bagrowski (Jan 29, 2002)

For what its worth: I used Sucrocide on 3 colonies this past August. After spraying I noticed the queen from one of the colonies in the grass in front of the hive.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I wanted to have Sucrocide as a back-up. This kind of information is invaluable. Seems like we need an application method that csn be fine-tuned. I heard in a private e-mail of a guy that put it in a fogger. I don't know if it worked. Thanks for posting.

Dickm


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I have used it twice this past season. I did not use a garden pump sprayer, but instead a large hand-held bottle with a trigger pump - yes my muscles got a real workout. I have never seen dead bees after an application. However, the first time I sprayed them I thought for sure I killed the hive. The bee "freeze" upon application and don't appear to move until after the liquid starts to dry. 

I try to keep my queens marked so that when spraying I can avoid direct application to the queen. So far no problems. Mite counts are very low. Time consuming process using my application method.

Since my hives are in my yard, I'd like to use a hose end sprayer, the type that you can dial-in the concentration. Any one else use this type of sprayer?


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

AstroBee, I have such a sprayer. It won't work because the water will come out too hard. You might try a Wagner hand held paint spayer though. Those can be set so you get a fine mist.


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

To elaborate just a little, I think the bees that were on the vertical frame surfaces where the excess liquid could run off were fine. I believe it was those that were at the entrance or in the corner of the bottom board, etc. that perished because the solution stayed in place. The bees do "freeze" temporarily and so didn't seem to be able to walk away from it. The instructions said they would look "bedraggled". They really looked downright pathetic. A couple hours later, everything looked normal. There has been some question about the effect on open brood. Most of it was covered by bees, so I doubt if there was much direct exposure. There's not a lot of brood this time of year anyway.

I'm not sure about fogging it. It's a sugary soapy solution -- it looks like thin maple syrup. So even diluted it may not do well in a fogger. But with the right sprayer I do believe there's a way to get enough coverage by sticking the spray wand with the right tip between the frames and not have to remove each one individually. You might have to remove one to make enough space so as to not mash bees. That should get it down to less than a minute per hive body.

I'm not trying to sell it, but it sure seems like an effective non-toxic (to bees or humans) treatment for mites. Although I haven't seen any claims for killing SHB, it may have an effect on them as well.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

GaSteve,

I failed to mention in my previous post that I too have seen dead SHB after the application. I'm assuming that Sucrocide was the cause of the death. 

I agree with you that it has promise as a nontoxic approach to mite control, but the application effort is a big problem. If you devise an efficient low-cost application technique please share it with us.


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## kamerrill (Sep 17, 2003)

I used sucrocide this year on 10 colonies with good success. 

As was mentioned in another post, it is a big pain and time consuming to pull and spray each frame. If spraying down between the bars has proven to be effective, I'll give it a try in the spring.


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## Todd Zeiner (Jun 15, 2004)

Thanks for the report. Sounds like an alternative for resistant mites. Still looking for an easy way to apply quickly. I was thinking of a pump up garden sprayer.


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## YBCute (Oct 18, 2004)

So there is no accidents gentlemen please post specifics for things. Everyone assumes foggers =Burgess or Hudson electric or propane styles and they are not ment for water let alone surrocide! I use an agricultural orchard fogger and this is not a FGMO unit.Its sole purpose is to turn water / liquids into a super fine fogging mist. They whole interior is turned into the London fog in less than 12 seconds. Get facts straight before someone gets hurt or burned by trying to put sucrocide in a burgess fogger!!!!!


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## JWG (Jun 25, 2004)

There are various small or portable cold foggers on the market. Unfortunately they are 120VAC units (such as http://www.kill-fireants.com/b&g_foggers.htm#Mytilite
)

Question is, if the Burgess type (thermal) units are not suitable could these other types be used with Sucrocide? 

Has anyone actually tried fogging with this chemical?


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

Even if Sucrocide could be used in a fogger, there is a problem of volume. The current research says that you have to get a certain volume of the active ingredient on the mites to be effective which is why the bees need to be doused pretty well. I don't think a fogger can deliver that kind of volume. If you try a stronger concentration, you may get more active ingredient on the mites -- then again you may kill your bees. On the other hand, this is new territory and I doubt anyone's ever done any experiments like that. If anyone tries it, let us know how it works.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Wasn't it the USDA that came up with SO as an alternative for small scale beekeepers? Wouldn't they have experimented with different application methods?


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Wasn't it the USDA that came up with SO as an 
> alternative for small scale beekeepers?

As far as I know, Tony Barrington, who owns AVA
Chemical Ventures up in Portsmouth, NH, took it
upon himself to bother to apply for EPA
registration as a miteicide. I've spoken with him,
and he is well aware that he may not make enough
on sales to beekeepers to cover the registration
costs, but as he said, "There's lots of
applications for this."

If the USDA was involved in the beekeeping
application of SOE, they have not mentioned it,
which would be unusual for the USDA. They are not
shy about putting out press releases.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

OK Jim. I haven't followed it that closely. Some of what I find about it on google mentions USDA so I assumed they were involved with it.


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## kamerrill (Sep 17, 2003)

YBCute:
I use a pump-style garden sprayer as per the instructions.


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## danno1800 (Mar 13, 2004)

I had good results with Sucrocide last Spring. Big mite drop after the first spraying. It takes some time, but seems perfect for a small hobby beekeeper like me. I sprayed again each weekend for 2 more weeks without much in the way of additional mite drop. This year I'll do it in the Spring and the Fall. I used a 2-gallon garden sprayer I got at So. States to make measuring the Sucrocide easier.


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## ronzo0424 (Apr 30, 2004)

guys, i'm going to try a 12volt water pump(the kind you would use in a camper usually well under 100.00)to spray with. the flow will be consistant.
i mounted it to the lid of a 5 gallon bucket, added a spray wand, long enough wires to suit my need to plug it to my pickup. should work great. give it a try 
( the pumps automatically shut off when the pressure builds so it just doesnt just keep running)


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## JWG (Jun 25, 2004)

Could someone please post the sprayer calibration details? (How does the time to dispense 6 oz. figure into the actual volume dispensed on a comb or the amount of time to apply per comb?) 

The instructions that came with my bottle of Sucrocide did not mention application amounts or timing. I am going to be using a garden pump sprayer with fan nozzle. Any other application suggestions would be helpful. Many thanks.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

"At the recommended dilution (0.25% active ingredient), the amount per full frame of bees required by the label is approximately 1.5 ounces (0.75 ounce/each side of frame). To calibrate the sprayer, first determine a mark for a known liquid measure in a disposable cup. For example, fill the cup with 6 ounces of water and then mark the fill location on the side of the cup. Next, adjust the sprayer to deliver a broad fine mist (Figure 3). Using the marked cup  determine the number of seconds required to fill the cup to the mark. To determine the spray rate for your sprayer, divide the number of seconds by the number of ounces. For example, if it takes 16 seconds to fill a cup to the 6 ounce mark, then the sprayer is delivering 1.5 ounces in 4 seconds. To deliver this recommended amount to a frame using this sprayer, each side of each frame should be sprayed for 2 seconds. The distance should be adjusted (typically 9 12 inches) and the movement of the spray wand across the frame timed to maximize the spray coverage of bees. After being treated the bees will look very wet and appear rather bedraggled. However, within a few hours, the bees will again appear normal."


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

a hand spray bottle that i calibrated requires 54 pumps per frame or 28 pumps per side for the correct 1.5 ounces/frame (0.75 ounce/side). for even a single hive body that's a lot of pumping.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

GaSteve says: One result I didn't expect was 12 dead adult hive beetles on the sheet.  tecumseh inquires: Were these small hive beetles (very small) or hive scarab beetles (somewhat larger)? These two beetles are often confused. Just askin'....


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

someone may have already asked about this, but heard that if i use a flat fan sprayer calibrated to deliver 3oz. of sucrocide between frames, then i can get about 80% of the mites by simply removing the top cover and spraying down between frames (once for four weeks is recommended).

has anybody tried this? if i'm using two deeps will enough sucrocide get to the bees in the first one?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Jim is right, Tony Barringtons is responsible for developing and getting approval for succrocide. Tony and I have been in contact regarding use and application. Following is some information from Tony on application that may help.

Tony States

" I would recommend using the Chapin #5934 (Brass, 0.20 GPM, 80 degree
fan, male thread), available from Chapin Manufacturing, Batavia, N.Y.
(!-800-950-4458). It is the one we have used to-date in spray-down trials.
(There may be spray tips that give better coverage but we have yet to
identify them)."

They have developed a spray boom for larger operations or combined use that is around $200. We will probably purchase one if we have good results with succrocide.

The initial results sound very promising and if it kills hive beetles too what a bonus. I am aware Tony is in the process of having test done for residue in honey and wax and we may get results that will tell us if it can be used as a control during the honey flow. 

I e-mailed Tony and advised him of this thread and hopefully he may jump in to give us more info.

Finally if this product is good and Jim is right about Tony not recouping his investment I think we should vote with our dollars and everyone having success with the product pitch some extra to Tony as a thanks for going out a limb in doing this. It would support his further efforts in testing and application. I'll write the 1st, check! Kudo's to those who took the time to evaluate and post their results. This is farmers solving thier own problems and ain't it great! Let's keep the results coming!

Buford, Mike Stranghellini from Rutgers conducted tests in 2 deeps as you described and the results were 75% control (spraying between frames) vs 90% for pulling frames and spraying.

We will be doing our first application next week on the hives back from SC. We will only test a couple in each yard but I'll post my results.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

As previously stated I have now waited 30+ days and have begun to recheck my hive that I sprayed with sucrocide (3 application at 7 day intervals). 
Today just ahead of a light rain (please lord send us some more, but don't drown us like last year) I check the first three hives that I treated with sucrocide, all located in one location. When I tested the bees via the powder suger-rock and roll method, I took a raw count of the mites and multiplied by 3 to acquire a total score. All hive with a total scores above 50 were then treated (this was a grand total of five hives)

hive 1 original total score 111: retest total 27
hive 2 original total score 75: retest total 0
hive 3 original total score 60: retest total 0
mean or average 82 9
Looks good so far folks, and I will bring you the results of the last two hives tomorrow.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

Day 2 of retest, hives 4 and 5 at one location:
hive 4 original total score 54:retest total 15
hive 5 original total score 120:retest total 45
mean all 5 hives original 84:retest 17.4

So I don't know how they came up with an estimation of a 97% reduction in mite count, excepting that I did the retest at 30+ days and have no way of knowing when they retested. Overall I am fairly pleased with the results of this sucrocide test. As previously mentioned it is relative labor intensive process, some significant economy in labor are acquired by figuring how to limit the number of steps in the process and practice naturally makes the process go a bit smoother.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

tecumseh, thanks for the results, Im going to use it this fall but appreciate your letting me know it does works decent.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

TwT sezs: tecumseh, thanks for the results,

tecumseh replies: You are welcome TwT. Of course everyone needs to figure if and where 'anything' works within their own particular operation. I think I will also use this product pretty extensively in the fall and ahead of nuc making in the spring since I have this nagging feeling (not based on any real hard data, but more than a bit of casual observation) that the added vector of the mites is limiting my success in making up spring increase.


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## JWG (Jun 25, 2004)

Applied Sucrocide to 10 colonies yesterday. Here is a summary of my experience: The bees did not seem to appreciate the shower. They did "freeze" initially and then started to stumble about, to the point of rushing up and over the edges of the hive body. Some fell on the ground. On one hive I was fortunate enough to notice the queen about to wander up over the edge of the box, and I brushed her back over onto the frames. I hope I didn't lose one of the other queens inadvertently.

I used a garden sprayer with fan nozzle. Initially I tried spraying down onto the face of the combs, after removing one to make space and spreading them apart a bit, and moving each successive comb over as I sprayed. This was not the best plan, as the "bedraggled" bees would enter the spaces between the end bars and would not move out of the way in the normal way so that I could gently shove the frames back tight together. They were just too demoralized and confused. So it took a long time to get the frames back together without crushing them.

What worked better was to not spread the frames apart first, and to move them one at a time. This way there were far fewer bees getting in between the end bars. 

I am a bit concerned that using any type of sprayer would send a good amount of the solution into the open brood cells. Not sure how harmful this will be.

On the last few hives I opted to spray down between the top bars, without moving frames, and then tipped each brood chamber up, and sprayed in betwen the frames from underneath, spreading the bottom bars with a gloved finger. That went pretty quickly and the bees got a good covering. 

In all, using this stuff is a very invasive procedure and I hate to have to resort to it, but formic is nasty, too, and the strips have their own detrimental biological effects. Plus, they don't seem to be effective anymore, so that is moot.

I would be interested in hearing more comments and results from other users of Sucrocide.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

Im going to treat my hives in a few weeks with sucrocide, I was looking at getting the small 48oz. hand sprayer, have any of you tried this type srayer yet , if so how did you like it, I only have 5 hives to treat.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

JW G adds:
What worked better was to not spread the frames apart first, and to move them one at a time. This way there were far fewer bees getting in between the end bars. 
tecumseh replies:
When I first started applying this product I removed all the frames and sprayed each side one at a time, which I decided was way too much handling. Towards the end of the spraying regime I had pretty much evolved to the process you described above. In the next evolution I will reduce each box to 8 frames until the spraying process (14 to 20 days) is complete.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

heres a pic of the sprayer im talking about. the price is $7.99 at home depot

http://imagex.homedepot.com/f/248/13340/7d/www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/eplus/130302_4.jpg


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

TwT, looks great for a few hives. You shouldn't have any problem calibrating it. If it sprays like those wand sprayers then I'd imagine it probably would be about 2 seconds across each side of a frame for the right amount of spray. How much is it?

When you posted earlier about a hand held sprayer, I thought you were referring to one of those spray bottles. As I mentioned earlier, I calibrated a spray bottle out of curiosity and it took 28 trigger squeezes per frame side for the dosage needed, and even at that it seems as though it might be tricky to get a uniform spray on all the bees.


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## Tony Barrington (Apr 21, 2005)

I am the guy who developed Sucrocide. It is great to see so many people trying different application methods. We too have been experimenting with application methods. Here are some findings.

1. The "lift and spray" method described on the label gives 90% plus control (3 applications), vs. 75% control (3 applications) for the "spray-down" method, where the frames are left in-place and the treatment is applied to the frame spaces with a fan shaped spray tip. An article by Stanghellini et. al will appear in the July issue of ABJ.

2. A commercial beekeeper, Tim Venis, has built a 10-nozzle spray boom that runs on a battery-powered 3 GPM pump. Treatment time per colony is about 10 seconds to deliver 3.0 ounces per frame space. Tim and I will have an article in the July ABJ that describes the equipment and gives part numbers, suppliers, etc. for those who want to build their own systems. We have also arranged for the fabrication of a complete spray boom. Anybody who cannot wait until July can call me at 1-888-229-7414 for the info.


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## manbee (Sep 22, 2003)

tony where in N.H.do you live? I want one of these booms.


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## John Lockhart (Feb 13, 2005)

I have been using the lift and spray method all spring and have had good results. I use a 15 gallon electric tank sprayer. The electric sprayer makes a much finer mist than the pump up ones. I put a 50 foot section of air hose on the sprayer so I can reach a whole bee yard without moving my truck. I have treated as many as 700 hives in a day with this rig. It does not kill all the mites, but it kills enough of them to keep them below the level of hive damage. It's nice to have something safe to use in the hive whithout all the hard chemicals. It's time we all start dumping the hard stuff and go to a nutural product like SO. I can't think of any reason NOT to use it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Here's some breaking news.  Just posted on Yahoo this morning.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=96&ncid=96&e=1&u=/space/20050616/sc_space/sugarnotsosweet


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Good news about a good product. There is also going to be an article in the July ABJ about new application methods and results.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Hello all. Very interesting and promising stuff. I am yet to try Sucrocide, but I plan to this fall. During fire season I tend to shy away from the propane fired FGMO technique, so tried a paint sprayer for painting cars, I believe. The type that attaches to an air compressor. It seemed to work very well for me. No fire hazard and a very fine fog, perhaps not as fine as the Burgess, but I am not sure. A light fog rolled out of the tops of the hive and the application took only seconds at the entrance. I am wondering if anybody as tried Sucrocide with this technique or one similar, like the orchard fogger perhaps? Will the fog techniques get too much of the solution on the brood? I have heard that the Sucrocide will damage open brood. The boom sprayer sounds great, but not having to open the hive sounds even better.
JBJ


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Sounds like a promising technique for applying sucrocide. If you try it, let us know how it works.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Has anyone tried an "airless" paint sprayer?

We just painted the roof here at Farmageddon
a nice shade of forest green, and the paint
was a very thick oil-based lead-containing
enamel. The airless sprayer, set up and rented
by the guys who sell the paint with the proper
orifice for the viscosity of the paint, was 
impressive. Great job, saved at least
a full day and a half versus roller. Best $50
I've spent in a long time:

Primer (High-Tech Elastomer) - 1.5 man days
with rollers

Finish Coat - 3 HOURS with the airless sprayer,
including several breaks for, ummm... beverages.

Of course, one would want to use very low
pressure for spraying bees, but it sure gave
us an even coat with no loud noise, and a very
portable base unit. I could see running one of
these off a 1KW inverter on one of the Volvos...


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I recently bought a cheap one at harbor freight for $15. See http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=47274

It uses 110 vac, but the inverter trick or for those near power it shouldn't be a problem. I tested the spray pattern and force of the spray and they look about right. I haven't yet measured flow rates or used it on the bees. Maybe I'll post my experience once I use it on the bees.


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## Phoenix (May 26, 2004)

> I have heard that the Sucrocide will damage open brood.


I think that is a mis-understanding of the recommendations for use. For best results, Sucrocide is recommended to be used when there is no capped brood, therefore the formula is able to be applied to all open cells and emerged bees. You can use it when there is capped brood, but obviously the Sucrocide will not effect the mites in the capped cells, only those in the open, or those attached to bees.


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## Phoenix (May 26, 2004)

> set up and rentedby the guys who sell the paint


Did the guys who sell the paint, rent this for their use to do the application for you? For a Grant, and some "beverages"? For that price I'd like them to come and spray mine...


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Did the guys who sell the paint, rent this for 
> their use

No, they just sell paint and rent sprayers.
The parts of Sir Edmund Hillary and Tensing Norgay
were played by myself and a friend.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

ok I got a question, I have read about people fogging hive's 1 time a week, i just want to use sucrocide so here it is, I was going to just treat in early spring and 2 different treatments in the fall (september and then again november), I havent dont a mite count on the sticky board yet, only pulled some capped drone brood and found 1 mite in about 100 drone brood, do i just need to monitor all the time or just do like i had planned above?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I trust everyone has read the 2 articles on Succrocide in the most recent ABJ. Comments? What say you Jim, althought the conclusions seem clear anything you can add from your unique point of view about how the study was done and results?
It still seems labor intensive in comparison to strips but it is virtually non-toxic as far as production is concerned. 250 hives in an hour with the boom which I believe Tony indicated would be available soon for about $200.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> anything you can add from your unique point of 
> view about how the study was done and results?

I doubt my point of view would be described as
"unique" anywhere but here, but as soon as I
get around to reading ABJ, I'll be happy to
tell you what I can. I tested the product early
on, so I can't imagine it having any drawbacks
except for the "tedious labor" aspect, no matter
how it was examined.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Well unique is not really the word I was looking for. I just appreciate your perspective on things due to the combination of education, field experiance and ability to filter out the BS as well as not talking like an egghead (not that I'm saying you are one or that it is a bad thing to be one). It seems so many educated folks have great theory but no concept of application in the real world.(ie Cornell and scaleable drone trapping) Actually I quess that does make your perspective unique. Thanks


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

When is the best time of year to use sucrocide if you haven't been good about monitoring mite drops. I usually treat every year in August with Apistan but don't want to do that anymore. I haven't gottem my screened bottomboards fitted with sticky boards yet. 

Is treating when there is the least amount of brood best? Or when mite levels are at their highest, I'm thinking that was August.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

I never used sucrocide but for several years now I treat with OA evaporation after harvest the honey. I start the second week in August, 4 treatments 7 days apart and 2 treatments beginning in December when no brood in the colonies.

So far I havent lost a colony because of Varroa mites for the last 4 year. The torch-heated vaporizer was not so successful but with the electric one I have best results.
Important is monitoring the mite drop, if a hive needs one or two more treatments it doesnt in hurt the bees.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

MichaelW....... Check out the latest ABJ pg 583....587 on delivery systems of sucrocide. 

Pg 587...589 talks about delvery of sucrocide to the hive and its affects on eggs and brood. I walked away with the impression that it does some harm to eggs and brood if sprayed directly on them. This harm is quickly resolved and overall harm is minimal. 

I am going to use it and am saving to order the R&D Sprayer that allows you to treat the whole hive body in one sweep (downward application, not direct).

The cost of surocide treatment is far less that Apistan, Checkmite, and Apilife-VAR.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The cost of Oxalic acid vapor is only a few cents per hive.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Heres an article from ARS magazine on sugar esters--the magic behind Sucrocide:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/jun05/insect0605.htm


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Excellent article Dick, Thanks! It looks like mites are only part of the picture.


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