# 2 Deeps,1 Medium Brood chamber



## PappyMAINEiac (Sep 23, 2006)

I have seen some posts on running 2 deeps and 1 medium as your brood chamber. Could someone explain pro's and con's of this system, or any web sites that can explain how to use it. Is it a Northern thing?? Thanks in advance..


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## Konrad (Oct 7, 2004)

I really don't know why anybody would go this far,... even Edmonton area some bee keepers winter in 1 deep, but most common is 2 deep, I have always lots of honey left come spring in 2 deep.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

My queens decide how many boxes they want for brood. She will usually chose two deeps and a medium or third deep. One deep may be enough for some but I have seen 16 deep frames or more loaded with brood. I dont see any reason to limit how much comb a queen has access to lay in. More bees means more honey.

I two find two deeps plenty to winter on and they usually have plenty of honey left. A third deep would be insurance for an area that does not have a spring flow but that is not a problem for me.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I keep my bees in 2 deeps and a medium. 

I feel I get larger clusters going into winter as the brood rearing isn't in competition with honey storage. So, you get larger clusters for winter and more overhead honey stores. Also, having a bit of extra room gives me a bit more time in the spring before they get too crowded.


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## PappyMAINEiac (Sep 23, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> I keep my bees in 2 deeps and a medium.


I would like to try learn system. Do you keep the medium box between the two deeps or does it matter. I would think if you reversed boxes in the spring (the way some 3 med beek's do) there would be less chance of breaking the cluster, and more room too for early spring build-up.
What is the best way and time to make this transition. You must feel it has advantages if you have stuck with it. Again thanks for your input.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I think you may be looking at it the wrong way... the deeps are both brood chambers with the top deep getting a little backfilled before winter... the medium is on top and full of capped honey so they have food available as either insurance or early brood rearing for buildup... having the medium of stores on top does not greatly reduce the stores in the upper deep, but it does feed them what they need most when they begin to build up in spring, thus promoting heavier populations... if reversing chambers, you simply check the medium to make sure that the queen has not moved up there to lay, and if its clear of brood, you reverse the deeps placing the medium back on top... when this is done early enough, and the temps and weather allow, it encourages them to brood up both deeps before she lays in the medium... I have found that it isn't that necessary though... if you look at that medium as being stationary to that hive, and all other supers as being added and removed for extraction throughout the season, it doesn't really matter if she lays both deeps and the medium, in fact it is preferred because of the added population numbers to work with in the spring... the larger the nest, the more bees it can produce, so the medium gives a place for the stores, allowing more space for more brood.


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## Fogducker (May 6, 2010)

2nd year "Beak", I run 2 deeps & 1 medium but I also put a "Warre'" quilt on top. The quilt is a medium box filled with coarse sawdust layer and styrofoam "peanuts", it's screened on the top &
bottom, then lots of ventilation under the cover. They came roaring out last spring and gave me 4+ supers full last summer.

Fog


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I made up some screened quilt boxes using burlap and cedar chips. Put them on top under the outer cover.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

rrussell6870 said:


> it doesn't really matter if she lays both deeps and the medium, in fact it is preferred because of the added population numbers to work with in the spring... the larger the nest, the more bees it can produce, so the medium gives a place for the stores, allowing more space for more brood.


Exactly. With an unlimited broodnest, the potential of the queen can be reached. I don't care where in the stack the medium is, I just want that much volume in the broodnest. It's kind of handy in the middle if you practice spring splitting. If the colony is strong, the medium will be well populated with bees and brood, making it a perfect split.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

PappyMAINEiac said:


> .
> What is the best way and time to make this transition.


Instead of feeding tham in the Fall, leave on a super of honey.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Around the world wintering in a single brood is far more common than doubles or double and a half. langstroth designed his hive to only be a single brood box, that is why he designed it a different size from the supers. He and Dadant, both searched for a good volume for brood area in a single box, I think Dadant came closer with a 11.75 deep, but that became obsolete due to an unavailability of lumber in the proper width to manufacture it, and not because it was a bad size.

Bees used to be managed as closely to what they do in nature as possible. Now days they are managed like a factory for honey. A Queen, who could have enough reserve to lay and be productive for several years, is maxed out in a single season and replaced. If you sit down and think about it, managment techniques for beekeeping, at least in this country, are much like battery farms for eggs where the max amount of chickens are crammed in the smallest possible space, fed for max production, artificially lighted to keep them laying daily year around, and in less than a year the exhaust their productive lifespan.

Oddly with beekeeping, even the "natural" beekeepers abide by the same management to maximize production techniques that the commercial operations use, just less chemicals.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Yep. MP is right... Why feed them and mess up their guttural balance when you can have stronger colonies in spring, less losses over winter, and more money to spend on important things... 

I try to time things so that my mediums are always on top, and I leave two mediums on hives that I intend to split... just as MP was pointing out using the medium in the middle as a perfect split, I use the deep in the middle as a perfect split during each build up and set a fresh deep of foundation on top of the split and one in the place of the one that I took, then place one of the capped supers on the split creating two hives of heavy brood on bottom, foundation directly above, and capped stores on top... within a week to a week and a half, both hives are back to full doubles with a medium on top... 

Old queen goes to the new location, new queen goes in the old location... 

When moving bees, I place the mediums on the bottom boards and take the doubles either giving them a fresh medium of foundation to draw at their new yard, or letting them draw and cap one in advance of the move so I have an extra to leave... the ones that are left get queens installed in each one and quickly become new hives just from catching the foragers and the bees that were already in the supers... we call these "honey super splits" and get about a 90% take with very little effort involved... after two weeks we place a deep of foundationless frames beneath them and soon we are back to a single deep on bottom and a full medium on top... these get another deep placed under the medium before the next flow, and they go into winter as a full double deep with a medium on top... 

Timing the placement of foundation is important, but using this trick can turn moving a yard into doubling a yard, without ever actually splicing the original colonies... and since its the medium, it doesn't take much away from the originals, but rather allows a small colony to grow to fit the space that you give them...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Not necessarily true... skeps are closer to double deeps... we have pulled many swarm combs down from our barn rafters that were four+ feet in depth... my queens average 3-4 seasons before requiring replacement... I usually try to push as many as possible into their third year because that is the heaviest spring that they have... by giving them more room to expand, you are not forcing the expansions, but rather just not restricting their ability to expand...


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

rrussell6870 said:


> by giving them more room to expand, you are not forcing the expansions, but rather just not restricting their ability to expand...


That depends on how you give them that room, if you checker board or slide a box between two brood boxes, dividing up the broodnest, you are forcing expansion.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

bluegrass said:


> Around the world wintering in a single brood is far more common than doubles or double and a half. langstroth designed his hive to only be a single brood box, that is why he designed it a different size from the supers.


With all due respect to the good Rev. Langstroth, I won't intentionally try to overwinter full colonies in only a single deep here in Maine.

Wayne


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## PappyMAINEiac (Sep 23, 2006)

So, how would one start running 2.5 deep. I just extracted a week ago so all my med. frames are empty. Right now I just started feeding Fumagilan to my hives. Do I wait till spring or place an empty med on top. I do have a few questions.
1) Does this change your spring management, ie. box reversing.
2) Do you normally use a queen excluder? 
3) Do you see more or less swarming?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

bluegrass said:


> That depends on how you give them that room, if you checker board or slide a box between two brood boxes, dividing up the broodnest, you are forcing expansion.


That was not recommended... we are discussing capped medium supers on top of double deeps so that there is more room for brood in the deeps...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Pappy, 

Do you expect enough flow coming to fill the mediums if you put them back on? And are you ok with not extracting from those boxes? 

1. No... if you time it right, you will be able to reverse the deeps leaving the medium on top with only capped honey in it... in harsh situations, where the queen had to move up into the medium, you can place the empty deep from the bottom on top of the medium...

2. No. I never use excluders... no need to... let them have whatever room they want for brood, and stack supers above that... I have some ladies that fill 4 deeps wall to wall each spring giving me three nice splits per hive at once... in years that I have not split them, they fill an average of 9 mediums of honey each... we take those mediums away throughout the season and keep making them draw new ones of course... no restriction on the brood chamber...

3. Less swarming by far...


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## PappyMAINEiac (Sep 23, 2006)

rrussell6870 said:


> Do you expect enough flow coming to fill the mediums if you put them back on? And are you OK with not extracting from those boxes?


I don't think there is enough time to fill and cap a med box. We are on the tail end of goldenrod and fall aster right now. If the pro's outweigh the con's I've got no problem adding a medium to each hive permanently.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Pappy - give Erin Forbes a call. In addition to her being an EAS Master Beekeeper, President of the MSBA and living in the Portland area, she is a proponent of 2 deeps and a medium. Erin's phone number can be found on the MSBA web site. I use shallows for honey supers and the thought of a third box size is unappealing to me. I think I will try a few hives next year with three deeps and see how that works out.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

waynesgarden said:


> With all due respect to the good Rev. Langstroth, I won't intentionally try to overwinter full colonies in only a single deep here in Maine.
> 
> Wayne


 They do it in Norway and Finland successfully and they both have comparable winters.



rrussell6870 said:


> That was not recommended... we are discussing capped medium supers on top of double deeps so that there is more room for brood in the deeps...


 MP recommended placing it in the middle in post number 9 I believe. I am not rallying against doing so, just voicing an observation about management styles. I don't buy my eggs from free range chickens and I made a lot of money as a teen loading semis full of chickens at productions end on battery cage farms. No offence I hope, it was just and observation.


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## PappyMAINEiac (Sep 23, 2006)

Andrew Dewey said:


> Pappy - give Erin Forbes a call.


I am familiar with Erin. I want to take her intermediate beekeeping course but classes are on Tuesday nights and I work second shift. BUMMER!! I will give her a call if I can't wrap my head around it. Thanx Andrew


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

bluegrass said:


> They do it in Norway and Finland successfully and they both have comparable winters.


Are you successfully overwintering your hives in single brood boxes in Connecticut?

Wayne


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

waynesgarden said:


> Are you successfully overwintering your hives in single brood boxes in Connecticut?
> 
> Wayne


It's a work in progress  Ask me again in the spring.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Good luck. What kind of bees are you raising? First year I got Carniolans, I had two hives in a deep and medium ea. that didn't seem particularly strong in the fall. They came through the winter in that configuration as two of the strongest hives I've ever had.

Wayne


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Italians when I started, but have been open mating so..... 

Some of them have some genetics from Micheal Bush's ferals and some of them have genetics from Appalachian region ferals.


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## PappyMAINEiac (Sep 23, 2006)

I'm Sorry. I just don't see any benefit in overwintering in one box. I have opened my hives in the spring just as they were running out of stores and that was on two boxes. Now to make it through in one box, they would have perished or they would have had to cut their brood in half in the fall to make it... That's not the kind of start I want in the spring.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Agreed.. the spring build up starts when it is still to cold to be adding chambers... if they have the space, they will produce two to three times the amount of bees that a single would during that time... leaving them as a double in fall with a capped super on top gives them space to lay up both chambers solid and food to feed that build up before the flow kicks in... nothing wrong with having plenty of bees and brood to work with in spring...


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

PappyMAINEiac said:


> I'm Sorry. I just don't see any benefit in overwintering in one box. I have opened my hives in the spring just as they were running out of stores and that was on two boxes. Now to make it through in one box, they would have perished or they would have had to cut their brood in half in the fall to make it... That's not the kind of start I want in the spring.


One benefit would be that you can winter twice as many colonies. An argument can be made that if they can't make it through in a single box without starvation, that you are wintering too large of a cluster, feeding more bees than need to be fed.

Langstroth and Dadant may well be dated, But Brother Adam is recent and also wintered in a single box, the Abbey still does. 

For some reason beekeeping in the US has become an industry without diversity. No matter what region you are in or what strain of bee we keep, the management is cookie cutter and very non-specific. We have a single hive type. In other countries they have dozens of hives to choose from and each is suited for different strains and geographic conditions.

This is why Russians have met with so much resistance here, they cannot be managed in the style we are accustomed.

Time for change.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

rrussell6870 said:


> Agreed.. the spring build up starts when it is still to cold to be adding chambers... if they have the space, they will produce two to three times the amount of bees that a single would during that time... leaving them as a double in fall with a capped super on top gives them space to lay up both chambers solid and food to feed that build up before the flow kicks in... *nothing wrong with having plenty of bees and brood to work with in spring*...


Sure there is; Not an issue in the North East but down south if you leave them that much space the SHB will take advantage of it in the spring before the bees do, and then you have to fight them all summer.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Last winter I had hives survive in 2 deeps, 1 medium and some in just 2 deeps. Most of them did well both ways (lost a few too). Except one hive that I thought wasnt doing well and would die before the end of the year was in 1 medium above an empty deep. It survived the winter and was a strong hive by summer. I think there is alot more to survival than how many boxes they are in.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

bluegrass said:


> Sure there is; Not an issue in the North East but down south if you leave them that much space the SHB will take advantage of it in the spring before the bees do, and then you have to fight them all summer.


That is not correct. Shb do not make a move on hives in early spring... they move after the stores that come in after the flow... there is NO space in any of my hives by the time temps reach the 60s...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

bluegrass said:


> One benefit would be that you can winter twice as many colonies. An argument can be made that if they can't make it through in a single box without starvation, that you are wintering too large of a cluster, feeding more bees than need to be fed.
> 
> Langstroth and Dadant may well be dated, But Brother Adam is recent and also wintered in a single box, the Abbey still does.
> 
> ...


Why would you want to have more colonies during winter?? That doesn't make sense... you make splits in early spring so they can build up strong, produce a surplus and produce many more hives... you do not want a bunch of lagging hives to feed and/or worry about over winter when they serve no purpose...

Brother Adam and the Abby had very different views... he used singles during winter due to the need of more places to keep queens and study their direct performances with immediate access to the brood chamber... he kept many doubles with supers and overwintered nucs above them as well... I have worked hives with him personally on several occasions and limiting brood chambers was not in his practices...

US beekeepers are extremely diverse... that's why there are so many different methods and practices displayed on this forum...

Primorsky bees are not met with resistance, ask those that invested tens of thousands in them to give them the best shot that they could...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

MJC417 said:


> I think there is alot more to survival than how many boxes they are in.


It's not about survival... its about room for the best buildup that they can/want to give...


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

rrussell6870 said:


> It's not about survival... its about room for the best buildup that they can/want to give...


I think there may be more to best buildup than just how many boxes. Sorry


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Your right, you have to have a good queen that knows when to get to work... the build up is dependant upon space for a good queen to lay and food for the brood to be fed by... half the number of brood cells means half the bees produced in each brood cycle... having a packed double vs having a packed single simply means that you have twice the bee resources to use in your operation...


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

rrussell6870 said:


> Why would you want to have more colonies during winter?? That doesn't make sense... you make splits in early spring so they can build up strong, produce a surplus and produce many more hives... you do not want a bunch of lagging hives to feed and/or worry about over winter when they serve no purpose...
> 
> Brother Adam and the Abby had very different views... he used singles during winter due to the need of more places to keep queens and study their direct performances with immediate access to the brood chamber... he kept many doubles with supers and overwintered nucs above them as well... I have worked hives with him personally on several occasions and limiting brood chambers was not in his practices...
> 
> ...


I have unlimited brood space, the queen can lay in any box she chooses to, but in winter she doesn't need the room to lay. I can ad boxes at the same time other people reverse boxes, which is the beginning of needing the extra space.

Why winter double the colonies? To come into spring with the max amount to make splits from... Say a person has 50 deeps and winters in doubles, they can only winter 25 colonies, but with singles can winter 50... Which person do you think will have more colonies in the spring? 



> Brother Adam and the Abby had very different views... he used singles during winter due to the need of more places to keep queens and study their direct performances with immediate access to the brood chamber...


 BINGO!


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

---------I have unlimited brood space, the queen can lay in any box she chooses to, but in winter she doesn't need the room to lay. I can ad boxes at the same time other people reverse boxes, which is the beginning of needing the extra space.

Good luck with that...

--------Why winter double the colonies? To come into spring with the max amount to make splits from... Say a person has 50 deeps and winters in doubles, they can only winter 25 colonies, but with singles can winter 50... Which person do you think will have more colonies in the spring? 

Because winter is when you are most likely to lose a colony, especially if you are intentionally trying to limit there natural cluster population, store availability, and chance to move up away from the entrance... if someone goes into wither with 25 well provisioned hives they should come into spring with 25 booming hives that can immediately be split into 50 strong hives and the timing allows for them to begin drawing new comb right away to build up to be split again creating 100 strong hives that can build up yet again to go into the next winter as 100 well provisioned hives... on the other side of that coin, going into winter with 50 singles, how many do you expect to go into spring with? How much of the flow is going to be used to feed the brood since there are little stores if any after winter? How much will that offset your comb production and honey production? What are the bees becoming accustomed to? A slower buildup perhaps? 

The reason that we are trying to teach you about these methods is because we have been there and done that... we have taken hives through winters in every type of configuration that can be imagined, and the best results for an operation that wishes to be productive and move forward came from wintering doubles with a medium of capped stores... 

-------- BINGO!

Unless you are trying to isolate traits in order to develop a particular strain of bee, brother Adams reasoning and your own are not comparable...

And again, brother Adam did not only winter singles... I winter a few hundred mini mating nucs every year as well as over 1,000 five frame nucs, but that does not mean that I am recommending it for operational purposes... I do so to see what limits I can push the mini nuc queens to, and to have five frame nucs available extra early in the season... just as he wintered singles so he could check their condition easily and quickly for record keeping...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm willing to bet...and I never bet on anything...that my 2.5 story unlimited broodnest colonies have more bees in them than a single, come spring. More bees in the colony in April in the north means a larger broodnest in May and that means either more splits on dandelion, more honey in the supers, or both.


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Despite a lot of bees, brood, stores, and ventilation, the only singles that made it last year had either supplemental heat and/or insulation. Granted, I'm only talking about 20 single-deep colonies, but I wasn't willing to risk my whole operation on an experiment. Actually, my triple deeps did the best. I'm inclined to believe the larger hives can moderate the wide temperature/humidity swings we have here in the USA, resulting in less stress on the bees and better nest homeostasis. It is definitely colder in the countries referenced, and correct me I'm wrong, but I believe they don't have freeze-thaw cycles, nor the humidity issues we deal with here in the USA. 

So to answer the question, the OP would be wise to over-winter in well-ventilated,balanced colonies in at least two deeps, two deeps and a medium, or three deeps.


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## PappyMAINEiac (Sep 23, 2006)

Thank you for all your input into this topic. This is a wealth of information. Although I think it is too late for me to place an empty super and have it filled by frost, I will do this next year! But please don't stop the debate. I am learning somthing with every post... again Thanks to ALL


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## PappyMAINEiac (Sep 23, 2006)

Steve10 said:


> Actually, my triple deeps did the best.


How was your spring build-up with these hives?
How often do you requeen with this technique?


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Pappy,

The triples were probably two weeks ahead of my doubles. That worked very well because I could split them and still send the original hives to pollinate a small blueberry patch I do every year. 

These hives have 2 year old queens in them currently. I raised a bunch of queens from these colonies. Made up nucs to use for re-queening and overwinter. They are still booming as I prepare to tuck everyone in for winter. I'm incline to let the origin 2 year old queens keep working and overwinter my re-queening nucs. I'd like to see how long they can stay productive and how well they'll overwinter in their second year.

As a side note, many of these are my donor hives for my queen rearing operation, so I'm constantly feeding syrup and pollen patties and replacing the brood I steal with drawn comb. I think this parallels what Dr. Russell and Mike Palmer are saying about an unrestricted brood nest. The queens always have empty comb to lay in right up until winter. The more frames of eggs I see when I tuck them in, the better they seem to overwinter. Just an observation, maybe others can chime in. 

Hope this helps, Steve


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## Me Beeing Me (May 27, 2011)

"The quilt is a medium box filled with coarse sawdust layer and styrofoam "peanuts", it's screened on the top &
bottom, then lots of ventilation under the cover. They came roaring out last spring and gave me 4+ supers full last summer."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How thick is this box?


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## PappyMAINEiac (Sep 23, 2006)

Me Beeing Me said:


> "The quilt is a medium box filled with coarse sawdust layer and styrofoam "peanuts"


I use a Homesote board with a slot cut in if for ventilation. It's simple, it works, so ill stick with it until I find something better. Plus a 5/8" hole drilled in front of each brood box also helps winter ventilation... by the way... Should I drill the medium also or not.


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## Fogducker (May 6, 2010)

The "quilt box" with coarse sawdust and styrofoam peanuts layers, with screen or burlap on both sides, can be anything from about 4 inches up. An empty medium or shallow super box is just right. Top cover only, shimmed up to provide lots of ventilation but still keeping out snow/rain.

Fog


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I had a bunch of non-standard outer covers so I made quilt boxes to use as adapters to fit my standard 8 frame boxes. We'll see how they overwinter this year.


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## PappyMAINEiac (Sep 23, 2006)

Fogducker said:


> The "quilt box"


Do you use an inner cover? If so where is it placed?


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## PappyMAINEiac (Sep 23, 2006)

rrussell6870 said:


> It's not about survival... its about room for the best buildup that they can/want to give...


Do you rotate boxes in the spring or is there no need to with 2.5 deep?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

You can if you find the cluster completely in the upper deep and the lower deep empty... bees naturally expand downward, so as long as the lower deep is drawn comb, they will go down themselves... every now and then, you will have a few head strong queens that seem to want to move up only... for those, reversing is necessary... reversing is a manipulation, and although the bees will naturally move down, sometimes it causes a more rapid expansion to reverse them which separates them from the honey stores that were in the super... they will still go up and get it, but being all about efficiency, they will not stand for this for long, and thus will quickly take up the upper deep as well... hence the rapid expansion...


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