# breeding for aggression



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I see alot of posts about requeening aggresive colonies, but is anybody using them as breeders? I have one that I am going to turn into a breeder. It is extremely aggressive, but I have not had to treat it for anything. My hypothesis is that we are breeding out survivability when we breed in gentle dispositions. The fact that AHB are mite resistant I think might prove this point. I think strong agreessive hive are also able to keep up with wax moths and shbs.


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## jnbgcpd (Apr 10, 2004)

We do not breed for them, but we do not requeen them either. Its an interesting point. Some of our "hotter" hives are the best as well.


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## blammer (Jul 28, 2006)

Maybe that is why the Russians are starting to be more popular...


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

It is a possibility. Many genes exert an effect called pleiotropy. This means that a single gene is often a master switch that regulates many (sometime hundreds) of other genes or traits. Another aspect is that small, highly selected populations (like my apiary) will randomly drift with respect to many genes unless we actively try to maintain genetic diversity. Our geneticists are getting better at understanding these things all the time, but there will always be an art to such things.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Aspera said:


> Our geneticists are getting better at understanding these things all the time, but there will always be an art to such things.


 My wife is one.....she probably inadvertently installed the idea in my head.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Well then hopefully you'll both enjoy this link:

http://www.hgsc.bcm.tmc.edu/projects/honeybee/

Soon they may be able to tell us a lot more about breeding and bee behavior. Thanks also to B. Weaver Apiaries for helping out with this project at Baylor.


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

I really think this would be a bad idea (please correct me if wrong). As I understand it the African bee was imported because it was a better honey producer and they were trying to breed out the aggressiveness in them (well things didn't go their way did it). you would be propagating the problem especially if there was some African in your bees. Eventually we would have aggressive bees (aka killer bees) giving us more honey but too aggressive. If you really want better honey producers get some Africans.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

I suppose there is a happy medium somewhere between bees that are "too hot to handle" and bees that are "too mild mannered for their own good" and I don't think either extreme is advantageous to either me or the bees. I certainly don't want bees that follow me 500' to my house and wait around outside for me (or anyone else) to come out so they can attack, and I don't want to sustain a relentless assault by hundreds of bees when I pop the lid. On the other hand, I don't mind high-spirited bees.

I've also noticed that my bee's temperment varies depending on the time of day, the weather, and the season. I don't bother my hives after 6 pm and they don't bother me. I leave them alone on rainy days and they leave me alone on rainy days. In late summer when the dearth arrives, I put on my gloves and they take their's off. I cut them some slack. We more or less get along.

That said, I do think there is a connection between overall fitness and aggressive behavior. The question is, where do you draw the line?

When you say you have one hive that is "extremely aggressive" bluegrass, just what do you mean?


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## russbee (Mar 6, 2007)

I do not think breeding for aggression is a bad idea as long as they are able to survive without needing mite treatments, such as AHB. I would not locate these more aggressive bee's in any area's that people may accidently wander into and get stung. I do believe we've put so much effort into breeding gentle
chemical controled bee's. If a slight increase in aggression is the payoff for untreated hives so be it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I suppose there is a happy medium somewhere between bees that are "too hot to handle" and bees that are "too mild mannered for their own good"

I haven't had any that were "too mild" unless it's unwillingness to defend their hive from robbing, but that always seems to have more to do with colony strength. Calm bees spend their time gather honey. Hot bees spend a lot of effort trying to kill me and rob their neighbors.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Consistently our more spirited hives build comb faster, put up more stores and winter better. They also seem to be more prone to swarming (which may just be a mangement issue of faster buildup). I've always been willing to tolerate a little more spirit. Hot hives are a different issue. With today's litgeonous (sp?) society and the hype about AHB I think it is important to keep our warmer, high producing, hives secluded. I think you are making a valid observation bluegrass in regards to cause and effect.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I don't have to try, it just comes naturally  
One good use for these more aggressive bees is building nucs. My buddy has one queen that makes mean hives, but is great at getting nucs going strong. He just keeps removing brood for other hives or moving her to the next new nuc until it builds up, then requeens with a cell. The more aggressive bees tend to hold off robbers better it seems.

When they are so hot they are literally trying to kill you, not just few but every **** bee in the hive, it's just not fun. I have one that I can't figure out what to do with right now. I almost hope they swarm just so the numbers aren't so high when I tear into them. I would move them to a new stand and then deal with the remainder, but I can't stay with them long enough to get it done. I've considered plugging the entrance for 3 weeks and seeing what's left. I split it to try and make it easier to go through. They left the brood and returned to the stand, all of them. Now there are just more bees in less boxes. These bees aren't normal and I doubt anyone would try to breed them. So what if they make honey, how would you get it out? I have other hives with attitude but these are special. If I find the queen, where do I send it?


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I agree with MB. In my experience one really aggressive hive in a yard will do a lot better in making surplus than the rest, but the result is a lot of production from the hot hive and a lot of starving hives in the winter. I have watched the entrance on hives that I knew were being robbed out and I feel that a disproportionate number of bees leaving the victimized hive fly straight toward the most agressive hive in the yard. It is easy to be a great producer if they don't have to waste time flying from flower to flower up to a mile away but can just fly twenty feet or so and fill up with honey that doesn't even require the house bees to wast time curing it. I would rather have twenty hives that only produce fifty or sixty pounds of surplus but give me a thousand pounds of honey than have one hive that produces two hundred pounds and nineteen that barely make it through the winter


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

We have one hive such as this, that is more aggressive than it's neibors, but boy does it build up fast. It boils over when I pop the cover, and continues long after I am done with it. While it is a bit aggressive, it still makes alot of honey, and not by robbing it either, it does so one flower at a time. I have not treated this hive for anything. I do plan to graft from this one on a limited basis to see how hot the daughter queens will be, and if they will continue to exhibt mite restance.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

it has recently been suggested (see aspera comments) that defensiveness and hygenic behavior are on the same gene....

the prime point here is that in most of the working of the world you never get something for nothing. so you select for one trait and invariably you give up some other desirable aspect. or as a queen breeder recently suggested... it is kind of like the song, one step forward and two steps back, how can you get anywhere like that.


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## Fernhill (Dec 30, 2004)

I have a buddy from Colombia in South America who learned beekeeping on Africans. He told me that down there theft of ones honey supers is an ongoing problem so it was common to place the most aggressive colonies at the perimeter of the yard. Non-beek thieves quickly learned that it wasn't worth it.

Mike


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

George Fergusson said:


> When you say you have one hive that is "extremely aggressive" bluegrass, just what do you mean?


These are not AHB; though I would have a few of those if I lived farther south. These are just your typical borderline hot hive. They don't like to be handled and if one stings you it is like the whole rest of the hive jumps in. They will follow 50 or so feet, but not any farther than that. They don't like being smoked much and sometimes I think I am better off if I don't....it's like it tips them off to what is comming.
Farmers in Africa keep African Honey Bees with far less PPE than we have here, and we are not talking about AHB, theirs are full blown African so it is doable. I see MBs point about robbing, but if all the hives in one yard are of equal disposition that should not be an issue right? I haven't had any robbing issues with them that I have seen. I plan on raising a few queens out of it this year and we will see how the daughters do over the next few years.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

So far, my meanest hives seem to have exceptional survival capability, but haven't been the best honey producers. I have others that have attitude and are great honey producers that are far more pleasant to work with.


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## YellowBee (Jan 22, 2008)

*Mean bees*

I have, over the last few years been taking wild hives that have formed in various places. All my hives are pretty aggressive from these implants of wild bees. I am really tired of having bees chasing me as much as 200 or 300 yards and stinging and still zipping me. 
I am moving toward Cordovian bees because I can trace their genetics and I think they will be less aggressive and with my son taking over the bees he too will appreciate the less aggressive bee. 
Even if I lose some on production (which frankly I doubt), it is just too hard to keep help and yards if the bees are constantly fighting you, your help and the yard owners. 
I use to think it was a sissy thing to even worry about aggressive bees, but as the stings have increased in recent years, I just get tired of the continual aggression of the really mean hive.
I have worked both the mean hive and the gentle hive and I think something in the middle is great! Cheers! Les


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Out of the handful of hives I have left after last years CCD, one of them was so aggressive it lost me a good location and I have only been able to keep it by splitting to weaken the hive three times last season. Since good queens were difficult to get, I ended up with four splits queened by progeny of the original hot queen. They all seemed to share the same personality disorder and will be requeened this year. On the other hand, three out of four are thriving at this point without treatments vs. almost the opposite results with my other hives.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

sierrabees said:


> They all seemed to share the same personality disorder and will be requeened this year.


Maybe A calm disposition is the personality disorder; god made them with stingers for a reason


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Hot Bees*

If you want hot bees try to locate the early bee strains that were used to start this country in bee keeping.

Dutch bees
German Bees
Carnies
The early term to get rid of the old stocks was coined "Italianized"

Hot hives have cost beekeepers some good locations.
Have Fun,
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries


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## JoeMcc (May 15, 2007)

bluegrass said:


> These are not AHB; though I would have a few of those if I lived farther south. These are just your typical borderline hot hive. They don't like to be handled and if one stings you it is like the whole rest of the hive jumps in. They will follow 50 or so feet, but not any farther than that. They don't like being smoked much and sometimes I think I am better off if I don't....it's like it tips them off to what is comming.
> Farmers in Africa keep African Honey Bees with far less PPE than we have here, and we are not talking about AHB, theirs are full blown African so it is doable. I see MBs point about robbing, but if all the hives in one yard are of equal disposition that should not be an issue right? I haven't had any robbing issues with them that I have seen. I plan on raising a few queens out of it this year and we will see how the daughters do over the next few years.


That is exactly how my B-Weaver Buckfasts were... I took nearly 100 stings from a weaver buckfast SWARM a few years back. All of my hives died out except for the the one that attacked me. I was so mad the next winter I went out and shook them into the snow. I tried twice to requeen them. They even killed the first queen by chewing THROUGH the corks. Nuts!!

JoeMcc


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## Sarge (Jun 26, 2006)

This might be the answer for those outyards where the local Yokels just won't leave things alone. Call it a guard hive and leave it in place like a living land mine for the fools.


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