# You can't teach an old, frame hive beekeeper, new tricks



## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Don't take it too hard odfrank, remember it's all crush and strain anyway.


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## TheGeneralsBees (Feb 17, 2013)

If the hive had been turned 90 degrees then everything would have been fine. ;-)


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## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

You just didn't level it.


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## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

Seriously, though, I see things like that and I say, "ain't worth it." I'm gonna build a horizontal hive with frames.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Is this their first inspection?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Ollie, if only you had just turned the hive to match up with the _Geo Lines_ located in that area all would have been OK. 

Here is an illustration of what I am referring to ...










.... linked from this thread: http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...wer-quot&p=1023442&highlight=foot#post1023442


k:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I bet that's the first time that has ever happened. lol


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Ollie, if only you had just turned the hive to match up with the _Geo Lines_ located in that area all would have been OK.


Graham, odfrank being from CA, wouldn't feng shue be more appropriate?


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

That comb looks really nice! You could do a cut-out and put it into a lang. 

I built a KBTH, but am now making lang frames. It may be a long hive or it may be 8, 10 or 13, but it will be rectangle frames. Having just top bars made the removal I did difficult. It took too long to get the bees back in the hive to close it up. You can't scan the top of the frames to see where the activity is. But that's just me and I'm wet behind the bee ears.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

It is hard to teach an old dog new tricks but if they are receptive to learn things can work. This is what honeycombs should look like. One on the stand and six more of the same in the box.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

EarlyBird said:


> Seriously, though, I see things like that and I say, "ain't worth it." I'm gonna build a horizontal hive with frames.


Me too. I can't lift 90 pound filled Lang boxes by myself, but I like the idea of being able to use Lang frames plus all the other accessories available for Langs. I made the mistake of getting 2 TBH's from 2 different sources and the bars are not interchangeable - big mistake on my part but live and learn, blah, blah. I'm going to use the dimensions of 3 deeps placed horizontally.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

Delta Bay said:


> It is hard to teach an old dog new tricks but if they are receptive to learn things can work. This is what honeycombs should look like. One on the stand and six more of the same in the box.
> View attachment 13844
> View attachment 13845


Show off... :applause:


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

odfrank said:


> After 40 plus years working Langstroth hives I last year started a topbar hive for a client. This opportunity has given me thanks that I got into beekeeping before the hobby took a turn backwards thousands of years in hive design. Evidentially, topbar bees will not work congenially with Langstroth beekeepers. This is the best I could come up with so far as a topbar beekeeper:


You need to get yourself a long knife, about 10"+, bread knife is ok, and use it often. You also need to check the hive more frequently than you do a Lang to keep the B-Girls on the straight and narrow, literally. If you find cross-comb, burr comb, use the knife, but if possible, cut *upward* so the action of the knife doesn't pull the soft comb off the bar. My knife is practically a samurai sword. As someone else noted, it is imperative to have the hive plumb, meaning: use a carpenter's level to make sure it is plumb in all directions.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Marysia2 said:


> As someone else noted, it is imperative to have the hive plumb, meaning: use a carpenter's level to make sure it is plumb in all directions.


So a TBH is supposed to hang plumb? Huh, I didn't know that.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

Hang? Mine are on legs...checked with a level when the hive was first put out on the ground in March, and then again in April before the bees arrived (New England has frost heaves...the ground moves). All I can say is...I haven't had one single instance of cross-combed or even burr comb in either TBH.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I always get tripped up by words and their meaning. But I think I know what you meant. If the top bars aren't level the combs won't hang plumb, is that it?


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

The type of wedge on your bars odfrank are barely more than a suggestion, much to shallow. A deeper one with a sharper angle would have given better results. Myself I don't use the wedges but rather 1" foundation starter strips across the full length of the bar. I only go into my hives 3 to 5 times a year so I need something that works close to 100% of the time. The combs that I posted are from a May 1st shook swarm. No inspection and management until July 1st and then harvest of the 7 honey combs Aug. 15th. That's it 3 times in the hive.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

cg3 said:


> Is this their first inspection?


No, they did better last year.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>The type of wedge on your bars odfrank are barely more than a suggestion, much to shallow.

That is a factory made topbar hive and topbars.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

odfrank said:


> >The type of wedge on your bars odfrank are barely more than a suggestion, much to shallow.
> 
> That is a factory made topbar hive and topbars.


Still a bad design.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> I always get tripped up by words and their meaning. But I think I know what you meant. If the top bars aren't level the combs won't hang plumb, is that it?


Yes. The bees will build comb perpendicular to the earth. If your *hive* is not level, the bees will build level comb, but in your un-level hive, it will be crooked and probably wonky. You're messing with their center of gravity. :no:


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## JDMoodie (Aug 30, 2014)

Could the bees has cross combed any worse? too funny.

I built my own Langstroth top bar hives, 48" long to take full sized deep frames. I made a few different bars/frames to see what would work the best and have some good ideas for next year now.

Jeff.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Marysia2 said:


> You're messing with their center of gravity. :no:


Whose? The bees?


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Whose? The bees?


Someone is going to come on here and throw a hissy fit and say I'm not explaining it correctly. Just make sure your TBH is level in all directions and you will eliminate a lot of the comb problems. Langs are supposed to have the front entrance side tilted downward at a slight 25 degree or so angle so water will not pool inside the hive; TBH's should be level.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

JDMoodie said:


> Could the bees has cross combed any worse? too funny.
> 
> I built my own Langstroth top bar hives, 48" long to take full sized deep frames. I made a few different bars/frames to see what would work the best and have some good ideas for next year now. Jeff.


Do you have some photos you could share? I want to do this as well, using the dimensions of 3 deeps, placed horizontally. Looked for specific instructions on the net and couldn't find anything. I love TBH's, but I want straight sides so I can use conventional Lang frames.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

Delta Bay said:


> Still a bad design.


At this point we've made well over 100,000 of these bars and they generally work very well, both in our own hives and those of our customers. I've not had better luck with longer/steeper angles. Regardless of your guide (I inspect top bars of all shapes, sizes, depths, angles, etc. throughout the Pacific Northwest), sometimes they just draw crooked combs. A guide is exactly that -- a guide. Bees, regardless of the type of hive, don't always do what we want them to. They especially like to draw crooked combs to thwart odfrank.

The bars look like this: http://www.beethinking.com/collections/top-bar-hives/products/top-bars

Best,


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

odfrank said:


> This is the best I could come up with so far as a topbar beekeeper:


Still...crooked or not, it's definitely luscious looking, isn't it?


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> At this point we've made well over 100,000 of these bars and they generally work very well


Generally is not what I'm looking for, rather maximizing my confidence in what consistently gives the results I'm looking for, but everyone can make their own decision on what that means to them. All day long I stand by my view. Being in the business Matt, this thread could be viewed as constructive feed back. You can also look through many other threads that indicate similar issues of varying degrees. I'm also an avid TBH'er that's been doing this for more than a few years and have worked through 100's of them and have a decent handle on what will work best for someone that starts brand new with bees and knows nothing about them. As well odfrank is no slouch when it comes to beekeeping with his 40 years experience.

I mean no disrespect just calling it like I see it.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>have a decent handle on what will work best

Let's hear what in your opinion is the best shape topbar to avoid this kind of problem.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

I only said generally because I've never seen a bar design that ALWAYS produces straight combs. This is, of course, because there's another factor: the bees. You can, indeed, look through many past threads showing bars made with a wide variety of designs (wedges big, small, tall, short) and see crosscomb on all of them. I'm sure any of us who've done a lot of consulting have seen it. The bars are only one piece of the puzzle. An important one, for sure, but there are many other factors, some of which have been brought up in this thread.

I've used many bar designs over the years and I've found these wedges produce consistently straight combs the vast majority of the time. I use them in my own hives as well. I very, very rarely see a colony start crooked from the start unless there's some outside influence affecting their construction. A queen cage hanging from a bar, for example.

I do appreciate constructive criticism. If you have a design that always produces straight combs, I'd love to see it!


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

Delta Bay said:


> Generally is not what I'm looking for, rather maximizing my confidence in what consistently gives the results I'm looking for, As well odfrank is no slouch when it comes to beekeeping with his 40 years experience.


I have a TBH from Beethinking and their bars worked fine with a package of Russian hybrids raised on conventional foundation. They went right to work and started building straight comb from day one. Yes, odfrank has 40 years experience, but not with TBH. You definitely can't put the bees in the hive (regardless of the type of bar wedge), hope for the best and then check the hive a month later. TBH beekeeping, as many others have said, is a much more "intimate" beekeeping than with Langs. You need to keep an eye on new comb as it's being built and straighten or lop off any cross comb. As Michael Bush says over and over, one straight comb will lead to another, and one crooked comb will lead to another. Aside from my own personal mantra of making sure the TBH is perfectly level in every direction (plumb), I think TBH's require more initial maintenance than odfrank was accustomed to doing. 

Odfrank...please try again, get out your carpenter's level and plumb the hive, get a big long knife for "correcting" comb and if you have an observation window in your hive, use it to check the comb formation as it progresses.


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## JenWV (Jan 22, 2012)

The combs are a good size. How often did you inspect this hive?

Top Bar or Foundationless frames produce the same results, if the bees are left unsupervised.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Odfrank...please try again, get out your carpenter's level and plumb the hive,
I have been a licensed landscape contractor and beekeeper for over 40 years, the hive is in a fancy garden, believe me, it is level.

>The combs are a good size. How often did you inspect this hive?
Once. and that is why I consider framed hives with foundation a better option for me. I have over a hundred hives in numerous sites and another more profitable business to spend my time on. I don't the have time to baby each hive and each comb. 
These bad combs are in a 2nd year hive and formed after the hive swarmed early and built back up in a good flow.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

We put four top bar hives together and had four top bar nucs from swarms we caught. All but one of them built 85-95% "perfect" comb. The other hive built extremely wide bars (I think because we had a very good flow and being first year hive they had a lack of comb). So they became off center and combs fell oddly between the bars. So on the top of them I used a marker to mark them as "move these four bars as a group". Cut out the really bad stuff, cut down the thick stuff, and placed straight combs on the outside of the bad zone. They have built great comb since.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

odfrank said:


> > I don't the have time to baby each hive and each comb.


Then you are probably right: TBH's are not for you.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

With TBH you've got to stay up with manipulations, using a good bar of comb as a guide to get straight comb. Definitely more frequent babying than a box hive. In a lang the foundation serves the purpose. It's a bit of a coin toss with a TBH if given the opportunity to build a bunch of comb unchecked it'll be straight and centered.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> Let's hear what in your opinion is the best shape topbar to avoid this kind of problem.


Too start off I would never recommend anything other than foundation starter strips when installing a package, swarm or shook swarm into an empty box. Once they have established some straight and centered combs you can us any type of guide or no guide at all. Fill your boots. Half a dozen bars with the foundation starters is plenty and the combs started on these will be right where you want them which as many say leads to more straight combs. It's also not just about one straight comb leading to another as you can have beautiful straight comb that can be offset from the center of the bar which leads to more offset combs. If comb interchangeability means something to you then this becomes an important issue. The foundation starters will give you the mid rib centered along the bar. 

Once you have a supply of straight combs that have the mid rib centered there is really no excuse for crooked combs. The combs you have on your bars are totally unacceptable, I'm sure you agree. Try the 1" foundation starter strips across the full length of your bars and let us know what you think.

My experience is that the bees follow the foundation starter strips 100% of the time. I've not seen this with any of the other guides. I also mostly use foundation starters throughout my hives.


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## JDMoodie (Aug 30, 2014)

Cacklewack said:


> I do appreciate constructive criticism. If you have a design that always produces straight combs, I'd love to see it!


First, this is my first year, I only have two hives and I only had 5 hangars used in the one hive. I just happen to like to tinker. This hive never had any comb that was not perfectly in line.... the other I had to manage occasionally and it had mostly typical top bars.

I made "hangars" that are 1/4" wide and 1/2" deep as an experiment (and I needed some bars in a real hurry, just a couple of rips). I notched the ends to rest on the sides of the hive similar to a langstroth setup. These are not true top bars as they need a cover but I use 2x6's as covers resting on 1x1 spacers so I still follow the idea of being able to partially open the hive at most any point along it's length. I happen to mix langstroth, top bars and my own trial "frames" together.

So far the hangar comb has not wavered even though the hive was not really "managed" other than checking the bee activity. The comb not only is attached to the hangar but is drawn up and over the top so it encases the wood entirely... very secure this way. They do draw up to the cover but keeping it only 5.5" wide it's easy to just run a knife under that section before lifting it off. The theory was that the hangars are free air so there is no flat area for the bees to start comb on at all... unless they start on the cover in which case they still straighten up once the comb hits the hangar on it's way down but they seem to start on the hangar first anyway... thus far.

Downside and upside is that bar spacing is variable so care has to be taken when placing them. It does make it easy to adjust the comb spacing if they transition from brood to honey to really fat honey comb, no need for spacers. They are problematic to lift as there is nothing to grab except the tiny notched ends so I need to work the design out differently... winter project.

Here is a shot of one of the hangars with comb on it. This was early in the process as I was trapping bees out of my wall at home so this was in a 5 frame nuc to start.









Jeff.


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## JDMoodie (Aug 30, 2014)

Marysia2 said:


> Do you have some photos you could share? I want to do this as well, using the dimensions of 3 deeps, placed horizontally. Looked for specific instructions on the net and couldn't find anything. I love TBH's, but I want straight sides so I can use conventional Lang frames.


Here's a shot of the second hive I built... same as the first. I don't have the 1x1 spacers on the sides yet to allow for the langstroth frames but you can see that there is lots of room for those on the sides. Then I just drop a 2x6 on top for a cover for that part. I used the dimensions from an empty frame that I had and built it accordingly, allowing for the bee space and all. I think I have a paper napkin plan set somewhere...









I dispensed with the whole fancy roof idea and just use a high quality tarp. I even have one with a zipper down the side so I can unzip as far back as I need to get at the bars. Winterizing is just going to be dropping styrofoam on top, adjust the tarp and add a straw windbreak beside the hive area. The 1.5" dimension of the 2x6 is almost twice the insulation factor of a typical hive body around here. I also leave air gaps along the follower board to provide ventilation into the empty space during the summer. I find that the bees hang out in there rather than bearding too heavily out by the entrance. Not sure if I need to pack that space for winter or just let the bees propolize the gaps to their liking.

Oh, the entrance is a notch cut into the top front board which puts it about 2" down the face, no landing board... the bees don't need that. If I want a larger or smaller entrance, I just replace that board or stuff a spacer into the notch.

With the few langstroth frames and spacers in place I am currently using a top feeder but I can easily pop a jar with holes in the lid upside down in the back of the hive or in the active part of the hive. Both methods have worked well. Top feeder is more convenient as I added a screening to it so the bees don't come pouring out when I open it to check or top it off. With no fancy roof, I just adjust the tarp to accommodate the feeder.

Jeff.


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## reminniear (Apr 7, 2014)

I'm with Delta Bay on this one. I keep my hives leveled, use starter strips and have never had a problem with bad comb. I sometimes have to cut it away from the wall, but it's always been straight. 

I caught a swarm in June, moved it to a full sized tbh a week later, and promptly neglected it till early Sept. The girls built 20 bars of perfectly straight comb from starter strips.

It's a pain to attach the strips to the top bars and the strips are fragile. I've broken a lot of strips off the bars accidentally while moving things and setting up. But the bottom line is that they work.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

odfrank said:


> >Odfrank...please try again, get out your carpenter's level and plumb the hive,
> I have been a licensed landscape contractor and beekeeper for over 40 years, the hive is in a fancy garden, believe me, it is level.


What does being level have to do w/crosscombing? If the combs were on the bars and bigger to one side than the other, that I could imagine was because the bars weren't level. But, is it the TBH beekeeper's contention that if the length of the hive itself isn't almost perfectly level that the bees will build combs spanning the bars rather than in line w/ the bars?


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> But, is it the TBH beekeeper's contention that if the length of the hive itself isn't almost perfectly level that the bees will build combs spanning the bars rather than in line w/ the bars?


That's the theory Mark but I personally don't buy it. For me I want all my hives leveled the same so that combs are interchangeable.


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## Lonestarbees (Aug 8, 2013)

I'm jealous.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Delta Bay said:


> That's the theory Mark but I personally don't buy it. For me I want all my hives leveled the same so that combs are interchangeable.


Being out of level will cause combs to bend near the end/sides.. being off 45-90 degrees has to do with a building plan gone wrong.. either by the magnetic lines of the earth like someone suggested, N/S, or just a group of bees that decided they would go the other way.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

The comb itself looks lovely...the bees don't care which way it goes. Once off the bars it is perfect


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## AugustC (Aug 7, 2013)

I have no experience of the earths magnetic field affecting comb building. All my hives are orientated differently and they all produce perfectly straight comb. The only cross combing issues I have had is with bars I have used foundation strips on. Damp weather can cause them to warp and lift off sending the bees off in the wrong direction. When the strips have stayed where I put them the comb has been perfectly straight. I have also used various different comb guides to find what works best because I would rather not have to buy foundation. Lolly (popsicle) sticks are terrible. Half rounds, and triangle guides are good but the very best I have found is using centimetre thick dowels nailed on. The trouble with making very deep triangular guides is that the comb attachment is weaker. The full round lets them form a very strong attachment whilst still hanging lower. I just rub the guides with wax and away we go.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

have had no problems with popsicle stick guides in either our TB or my foundationless lang.


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## txbeek (May 21, 2013)

You were supposed to only use their brand of factory bees. Ill bet you didn't read the directions


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## AugustC (Aug 7, 2013)

The popsicle sticks work well as guides in framed hive (lang and national) but don't find them particularily reliable for the TBH. They work fine when inserting a bar between two drawn combs but then a bar with no comb guides at all works ok then as well.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

AugustC said:


> The popsicle sticks work well as guides in framed hive (lang and national) but don't find them particularily reliable for the TBH. They work fine when inserting a bar between two drawn combs but then a bar with no comb guides at all works ok then as well.


We started some with one piece bars that we cut on a table saw and we started some swarms we caught on popcicle sticks (with no other comb just blank bars) and they all built relatively well. The key is to inspect fairly frequently early on and straighten out any ends that start to curve and kind of stay on top of them. I have some of the popcicle stick bars that I transferred over to a deep lang and they built them out like this:









It is a huge piece of comb, and I will be rotating them out/splitting the hives in the future so I will hopefully eliminate them and go to just foundationless frames.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> The key is to inspect fairly frequently early on and straighten out any ends that start to curve and kind of stay on top of them.


This is one of the main reasons that I use the foundation starter strips. They really do cut down on how often I need to check on the combs. I have hives in different locations that I may not get to for a few weeks sometimes longer at a time so it makes sense to use something that allows for that. We hear so often on here that TBH's are best run in the home yard as they need constant inspections to check the combs. With the way I have been doing things I'm not seeing this to be true.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Delta Bay said:


> This is one of the main reasons that I use the foundation starter strips. They really do cut down on how often I need to check on the combs. I have hives in different locations that I may not get to for a few weeks sometimes longer at a time so it makes sense to use something that allows for that. We hear so often on here that TBH's are best run in the home yard as they need constant inspections to check the combs. With the way I have been doing things I'm not seeing this to be true.


It really comes down to setting them up for success from the get go. Get the first few combs going well and it should be relatively good after that. The hive we had issues with was one that we got into the least amount because it wasn't near our homes. It is back on track with straight centered combs now, but there was a time that they needed some coaxing, a sharp knife, and a smoker.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Also helps if you go all the way to the edge of the bar/frame with the sticks. which is maybe why you have better luck with the foundation since it goes all the way. my lang frames i need 2.5 sticks to get a full width. They can get a bit curved at the edges if they don't have the guide. Either way, top bars are much more successful when people have the time to keep track of them until they are established.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> Also helps if you go all the way to the edge of the bar/frame with the sticks. which is maybe why you have better luck with the foundation since it goes all the way.


No, they will always curve the ends in that area as they progress in building, it is invariably storage cells in the upper ends. Once the bees over extend the cells for storage the mid rib of the next bar over will curve as it is built out over the previous one. This pushes all subsequent combs off of center and can easily progress ending up much like what odfrank posted. The foundation starter strips act as a barrier and the mid rib. If you are happy with shuffling and cutting combs frequently that's your choice. For me or anyone that needs the combs in out apiaries to be centered and straight between extended visits then the foundation starter strip is the very best option. I'm not arguing that other guides don't work but rather putting forth information from experience an option for those that want to run TBH's but may not be able to get to them every day to manage the combs. 

There is a very good reason why full sheets of foundation became much preferred by the forefathers. Somewhere between full sheets of foundation and blank bars is going to give the results that each individual is looking for. Everyone is free to choose where that lies for them.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>All my hives are orientated differently and they all produce perfectly straight comb. 

Me too. I've never seen any difference. There was a study once that showed the bees given no guidance tend to build comb oriented the same as the colony they came from. That seems more likely based on my observations, than the bees preferring a particular direction.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>the foundation starter strip is the very best option.

But that requires you to either manufacture non contaminated foundation or contaminate your virgin topbar combs with possibly contaminated commercial foundation, thereby voiding one of the main purposes for going topbar to begin with.


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## reminniear (Apr 7, 2014)

odfrank said:


> > thereby voiding one of the main purposes for going topbar to begin with.


That's a mighty big assumption. People go topbar for a variety of reasons. Using a small strip of foundation 8.25 inch long 3/4 inch deep on a 19 inch topbar, does not void any of the main purposes that led me to top bar hives.

In fact it took out the biggest negative (that I've seen) against top bar hives. I've not had any cross combing in any of my hives, even on a hive that I did not get into for months that went from 0 to 20 combs before thier first inspection.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

I use my own wax and make about 50 sheets at a time that cut into 500 to 600 strips then use them as needed. When harvesting old comb or honey comb you can leave 1" of comb on the bar where you can tidy it up so they follow it again this way you can avoid applying new starter strips. Too start you do need to acquire clean wax from somewhere if commercial foundation seems like too much of an issue. Personally I didn't worry about the small amount I needed to use when first starting. My first bees came out of hives with all that commercial foundation.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I'm with Frank on using foundation starter strips. Not so much for the chemicals and what not, but from the additional work involved. 

I have one hive that all summer long I have been saying that these bees need to be in a Lang, because they just couldn't get with the program on drawing decent comb. Constant corrections and when they would stop "fixing" my corrections they would move on and pull some more out that would be wonky. Never too bad, but annoyingly so based on my other TBHs. For me getting them to draw straight comb in the other hives has not been a problem with wedges.

But I to am going to make a couple long hives this winter. I love my TBHs, but I like my Langs pretty good as well. I want to stick with all deep frames, and the weight is more than I'm willing to deal with. 

TBHs are not for everyone. Frank has the experience to have good results with TBHs, but not the time. I can respect that big time now that I have more hives.


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