# Bars Collapsed in Record Heat



## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

1.Leaving the honeycomb in a bowl near the hive was a mistake but you already know that.

2.I use some scrap insulation board on top of mine.At the very least a plywood shade board would help.I am not totally convinced that full sun means full Texas or Florida sun.

3.Yes,you will eventually find your queen or evidence of her presence and no,you will never learn to keep your smoker lit.


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## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

Cram it full of pine needles and shove a barbeque lighter into it. Use bellows until thick smoke rolls.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

gone2seed said:


> 2.I use some scrap insulation board on top of mine.At the very least a plywood shade board would help.I am not totally convinced that full sun means full Texas or Florida sun.


I had collapse problems with a TBH here in MA - wasn't even 100°. One of the reasons I quit them.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

I use plywood top board with about 2 inch spacers to keep it off the top bars. Provides shade on the top bars and allows wind to pass to prevent mold.


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

camero7 said:


> I had collapse problems with a TBH here in MA - wasn't even 100°. One of the reasons I quit them.


I guess I need to clarify....mine are all Langs,but shade boards should help for either type.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

MichaelShantz said:


> Cram it full of pine needles and shove a barbeque lighter into it. Use bellows until thick smoke rolls.


This is indeed what many people think would solve all problems with TBH but it is a very harsh measure your advocating! When making top bars, drilling three 3/8 holes thru them vertically and put dowells down short of the bottom or sides of your tbh. The bees will encorporate them in their comb and they will support them.


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## KatGold (Jan 18, 2012)

Vance G said:


> This is indeed what many people think would solve all problems with TBH but it is a very harsh measure your advocating!



LOL, I'm not sure, but I think MichaelShantz was not suggesting that I fill the TBH will pine needles and take a torch to it, I'm pretty sure he was talking about the smokers. 

Unless it's I who is mistaken. Hmmm....


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## KatGold (Jan 18, 2012)

gone2seed said:


> ... no,you will never learn to keep your smoker lit.


Yeah, I was afraid of that.

I'll go out in 20 minutes to retrieve the honeycomb I left behind. Thanks.


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## SantaFeBeek (Jun 13, 2012)

You can leave them the honeycomb in a bowl, but leave it inside the hive, not outside.


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## KatGold (Jan 18, 2012)

SantaFeBeek said:


> You can leave them the honeycomb in a bowl, but leave it inside the hive, not outside.


So, should I? Is it better for them to leave it inside rather than take it away?

I was afraid they'd build all over and around the bowl.


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## SantaFeBeek (Jun 13, 2012)

Put it at the back of the hive and let them clean it up for a day or two or three, then pull it out when it's empty. They may try to build around it, but not much will happen over the course of a few days. I do it all the time with burr comb or pieces of double comb on one bar, etc. You don't have to leave it in a bowl, either, just prop it up against the back so that they can get to both sides and they'll do the rest. They will clean up any spillage, as well.

Whether you should depends on how much stores they have. If they have plenty, take it inside and enjoy it yourself. If they need it, give it to them.

Good luck!


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## SantaFeBeek (Jun 13, 2012)

Also, if you let then clean it up, you can reuse the comb by melting pieces back onto an empty top bar or tying them on. The bees will make the attachment stronger as they build it out again.


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## KatGold (Jan 18, 2012)

Well, I think i did everything wrong. I should have just left it all in a heap. I thought I was doing them a favor.

I wound up taking bringing the bowl home. My husband had the bee suit and I didn't want to open it up without one. Next time, I'll leave it alone.

There was a hive beetle in the bowl. i don't know if I scooped it out of my box, or if it found the honey during the hours it was beside the hive.

So, Vance, I'm confused about the placement of the three holes. Is it three holes on one side or both? I assume you're talking about the long sides, not the front/back sides. Is that right?

Even if I incorporated the wax into the holes, won't i just destroy that brace every time I open the hive and pull up the bars that have wax in the holes?

I don't understand this at all "put dowells down short of the bottom or sides of your tbh."

Also, since I obviously don't want to drill in an active hive, should I drill holes in the empty hive (I have one without bees yet) and switch it with the active hive? Is this even possible? Could I take the empty hive to the bees and transfer the bars into the new hives and bring the old hive home?

Thanks.


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## SantaFeBeek (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm pretty sure he was saying to put dowels in the top bars themselves, so that as the bees draw comb, the dowels will be embedded in the comb, thereby giving them more strength via more "attached area".


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## SantaFeBeek (Jun 13, 2012)

Just to be clear, that would be on empty top bars, not bars that have comb drawn on them already. 

Don't get down on yourself, it's all a learning process that we all go through. You'll know what to do next time!


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Interesting.... I don't do TBHs but I think that I can tell what the problem is. I have standard Langstroth hives and have observed many natural ( feral ) hives over the years. The ferals can produce huge vertical combs with no problem. We occasionally have temps up to 114F and have never seen one collapse.

So why did yours fail... Perhaps your center to center spacing is too wide. If wider than nature intended then the comb becomes too fat and gets very heavy. Feral combs are rather precisely spaced ( but I don't know what that spacing is ) and are never excessively fat. In a Langstroth hive, the spacing is also rather precise and not too fat unless someone chooses to eliminate a frame.

Maybe your top bars need to be shaved and pushed closer together ?

Just me thinking out loud -- Fuzzy


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## KatGold (Jan 18, 2012)

I bought my bars through http://backyardhive.com/. I trust they've got it right....I hope.

Where in the Silicon Valley do you live? I used to live in San Jose. Of course, there are many micro-climates out there, but I never saw it get that hot. Yikes!


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## SantaFeBeek (Jun 13, 2012)

Hey Kat,

Looking at the hive design on that website, I would definitely put a couple of 2x4s or something between the top bars and the roof. It looks like that roof sits directly on the bars and would transfer heat to them pretty effectively. Make a little space between them for airflow during the warmer months and you probably won't have that problem in the future.


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## KatGold (Jan 18, 2012)

Yes, I just built a second roof to put on top of the other roof. The second roof has 2x4s nailed into some plywood that I painted white. So I'll have a cushion of air between the two roofs. What do you think of that?

I could also wrap the white roof with foil, but I don't know how much more that would help.


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## SantaFeBeek (Jun 13, 2012)

As long as you have some shade for the bottom one and ventilation between the two, you should be fine. Good luck!


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## SantaFeBeek (Jun 13, 2012)

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KuwET0nZQ6Yy8NOR6jbzucEDih6R5tI010Zl5BBwFYU?feat=directlink

Picture of one of my TBHs. I put a white board over the top bars, then set the roof on that. Plenty of airflow, although this roof design is too heavy. I'm working on one that is hinged to the box so that I don't have to lift it on and off every time.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

KatGold said:


> LOL, I'm not sure, but I think MichaelShantz was not suggesting that I fill the TBH will pine needles and take a torch to it, I'm pretty sure he was talking about the smokers.
> Unless it's I who is mistaken. Hmmm....


Thanks, I needed a laugh today.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Full sun is more for beetles than mites IMO. If you're in a hot climate, no need to really put your hive in full sun. I prefer morning sun and afternoon shade myself since it can be 80 degrees first thing in the morning and over 100 before noon.


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## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

KatGold said:


> Yes, I just built a second roof to put on top of the other roof. The second roof has 2x4s nailed into some plywood that I painted white. So I'll have a cushion of air between the two roofs. What do you think of that?
> 
> I could also wrap the white roof with foil, but I don't know how much more that would help.


I'd recommend (and am planning on) building a short shading structure over my hives. Granted this won't work in a large outyard, or at least it would be inefficient in that situation, but so would TBH's. Just build something like a canopy and stretch shade cloth over it. The shade cloth should give you a pretty good temperature reduction. Just like standing under a shade tree. On that note, my hives currently sit in almost full shade all day. No comb collapse problems yet! 

Now for an engineering blurb, recall that heat transfer occurs in three ways: conduction, convection, and radiation. Radiation is traveling by waves, so how we get heat from the sun. Conduction is through a conductive body, like a steel rod. Even the most insulated materials are conductive. So simply laying a piece of insulation on top of your hive really may not do much good. It may actually make it harder for the bees to cool the hive. Your best bet in the summer heat is to block the radiation. If you had a laser thermometer, it would be interesting to take a temp reading on the face of your hive where the sun hits it, and then you could figure up the heat transfer coefficients to know how much of that is transferring into your hive. Blocking the radiation of the sun cuts your maximum temp down to only what the air temp is (109 deg. F). Beeswax melts at 144-147 F. 

I haven't tried it yet, but I am confident (possibly naive) that by hanging a shade cloth a few feet above my hives, I will have no comb collapse issues, at least none that are not provoked by something beyond heat, like shaking the hive. If all else fails I guess you'll just have to rig up some air conditioning for the hives.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

"...I am confident (possibly naive) that by hanging a shade cloth a few feet above my hives, I will have no comb collapse issues..."

Thermodynamics is appropriate to consider, but don't forget your strength of materials coursework in the process. The width, depth, thickness, and weight of the comb will also affect the tendency for collapse, all other things being equal.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

"Where in the Silicon Valley do you live? I used to live in San Jose. Of course, there are many micro-climates out there, but I never saw it get that hot."

I live just on the edge of Los Gatos in Campbell. It doesn't usually get that hot but a few years ago we had 4 consecutive days of 110+ temps. That followed a winter with 4-6 consecutive days with lows of 17-19F. It's been relatively mild since. 

Fuzzy


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## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

DeeAnna said:


> Thermodynamics is appropriate to consider, but don't forget your strength of materials coursework in the process. The width, depth, thickness, and weight of the comb will also affect the tendency for collapse, all other things being equal.


Touche Deeanna, 
Yeah I totally dismissed tensile strength and elastic modulus properties. I was trying to do a quick google search just for grins to find those values. We do a little poking around, I'm thinking we're going to solve every TBH problem. Then we'll move on to saving the World.

I really like the idea mentioned above of putting the dowel through the top bars. But the more work that goes into constructing a top bar hive to solve "problems" it seems, the more it starts to look like a Lang. Don't get me wrong, I have 4 TBH's, and no Langs. It seems I often times think up what I feel would be great idea for my TBH, and then I realize that the same concept has already be incorporated into a Lang. Oh well, I digress.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Luckily I have a walnut tree that provides shade to my hives during the mid day sun. They seem to be doing alright in the 97 degree heat today. Sad news about the collapse.


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## fernmanus (Apr 28, 2012)

I had a frame collapse today, partly because of heat and partly because of some burr comb that the bees attached to another frame, so when I went to pull the frame the comb went to the bottom of the hive. The frame contained some capped honey, nectar, and some pollen. I separated the honey & nectar. Then I crushed that comb and strained out around a pint of honey. I whipped it with an electric mixer and put it in the fridge, I figure it will be gone in less than a week once my kids get into it. I had a question about the remainder. Can I freeze the pollen and put it in bottom of the hive in the spring? Same with the left over wax/honey mixture? Seems like it would be a cheap and easy way to feed the bees in the spring.


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## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

After I crush any comb I always give it back to the bees to clean up. Mine don't really seem interested in the wax or pollen, but they'll retrieve honey off of it. Once they pick through it for a day or two you can take it to melt down or toss it if you have no use (shame). I suppose it doesn't hurt to offer the bee bread back to them, I just don't know if they'll take it or not.


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## Beev (Jul 16, 2011)

As long as it casts some shade it will help. I lay a piece of foam insulation board over mine. I can really tell the difference.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Fern, yes, you can freeze pollen and honey and then feed back.


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## KatGold (Jan 18, 2012)

Tom Brueggen said:


> After I crush any comb .. it doesn't hurt to offer the bee bread back to them...


I'm not entirely sure I know what the bee bread looks like. In the pile that I scooped out of the bottom, I could clearly identify the wax and honey (or course!) but there was also some very dark wax that you could chew on and it tasted like honey, but it was obviously not waxy. Instead of spitting out a chewy wax, you'd spit out some chewy, grainy dark stuff.

Sorry if that's gross, I just don't know how else to explain it.

So, is that the bee bread?


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## RAFAEL/PR (Feb 23, 2012)

im very fond of the top bar hive , but not the bar , made my top bar to except super and super , super deep like a 11 inch frame ,here a picture of my top bar hive http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...2207779211507.59440.1758242520&type=1&theater


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