# Which commercial pollen patty substitute do you recommend for winter feeding?



## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

Let me know your thoughts on which commercially sold pollen patty substitute you recommend for winter feeding.

Thanks!

Dave


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## standman (Mar 14, 2008)

I have used Global patties (15% pollen) for past two years, but I don't start feeding them until mid to late January. Once I start feeding them, I feed constantly until I see pollen coming in. Are you feeding to build up or making up for some low levels of stores in the hive?


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## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

Trying to get a couple weak hives through the winter. This is our first winter witht the bees. We got a couple of hives late due to removals.

Thanks!


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Dave watch for SHB they love to ruin hives when there is pollen patties available

Tommyt


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## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

Anybody else have some feedback??


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Substitute makes short lived bees.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

mmmmmm......... That's a tuff one to answer.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> Substitute makes short lived bees.


If that's the case, why are my sub fed bees alway 30-40% larger come April ?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If that's the case, why are my sub fed bees alway 30-40% larger come April ? 

Probably because they raised a lot of short lived early bees.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >If that's the case, why are my sub fed bees alway 30-40% larger come April ?
> 
> Probably because they raised a lot of short lived early bees.


Michael, what proof to we have to support this claim?


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Michael, I've never fed pollen sub before, but after Hurricane Irene, all food sources were ruined! My girls usually overwinter very well on goldenrod nectar and pollen, but my inspections in September revealed that both stores were low. . .and extremely low on the swarm I caught in May. So I have been feeding both 2:1 syrup in hivetop feeders and on our warm days field feeding BeeMax. The girls are all over it. If I shouldn't be using these fake foods (and I do hate doing it), what should I be doing?


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## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

This is my first winter and I'm just trying to get my weaker hives through it. I now know what to do differently next year but I don't have much of a choice this winter.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The best answer is that if you are facing starvation, feed them with a good pollen substitute. Keith Jarrett makes Nutra Bee but I suspect is prohibited from advertising it here. You might PM him and see what he says about it.

DarJones


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I would at least try Nutra-Bee if it was available to small timers, but it isn't really. As I understand it. Sounds great though.

I've used mega bee during this past year, and the bees clearly love it, and built up fast last winter/spring. They may be short lived (I don't know how to tell that or not) but there was sure a lot of them come March.


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## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

Fusion_power said:


> I suspect is prohibited from advertising it here.


Why would he be prohibited for advertising on here? I see lots of companies advertising: Kelley Co, Blue Sky, Threadless Tee, etc.:scratch:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

"here" meaning within threads.


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## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

Barry said:


> "here" meaning within threads.


Oh, OK I understand now.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

bhfury said:


> Why would he be prohibited for advertising on here?


Thanks for the kind words, We always thought that if you make a product that is a superior, good value, happy customers would spread the word for you. Well, to this date we have never taken out ads let alone full page ads to sell our product. We feel that the product will sell itself. The beekeeping world is a small world, word of mouth has been very good to us.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

davel, I fed a weak coloney with no stores through this last winter with MegaBee patties, I was in your shoes trying to figure out what to do so I called Dadant supply in Kentucky and the fellow there was very helpful, he recommended MegaBee as his first choice of a balanced diet for the bees and sold me 40 pounds of it. I fed the small cluster all winter with this product and they survived and thrived throughout this past season and are still going strong. The cluster was small and they had little ability to create their own heat so I provided them with a heating pad, it was a life saver for them to have the heat and nutrients.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, what proof to we have to support this claim? 

There have been many studies. Jim Fischer used to quote several. Without wasting my day looking for what anyone can find...

Here is one that compares the best substitutes to real bee bread:

http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/revistaselectronicas/apiacta/1967/1/04.pdf

Another:

http://docsdrive.com/pdfs/ansinet/jbs/2006/734-737.pdf

One that compares some typical substitutes to real pollen:

http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/alimentacion/53_carbohidratos.pdf

References to several studies comparing all the top of the line commercial ones available:

http://www.extension.org/pages/28844/honey-bee-nutrition#2.7._Pollen_Substitute_for_Bees

Comparisons of mortality with various ingredients:

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/pdf-files/Haydak 2.pdf

And also makes them more sensitive to pesticides:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2307/4217075

Afraid you have to buy this one:

http://www.ibra.org.uk/articles/20080611_99


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Michael, I could not find where it states that sub feed bees lived shorter lives. Maybe in there but I couldn't find it. They did talk about greenhouse bees though, funny here they say geenhouse bees will only live two brood cycles, NOT when fed NUTRA BEE.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

many studies today are saying to look at the bees diet and recommend feeding pollen sub. most commercial guys are feeding sub. If it was bad for bees half of the bees in the u.s. would be dead. hard to argue with success. I'm sure some substitutes are better than others but any one is better than nothing.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Maybe in there but I couldn't find it. 

First study:
http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/revistaselectronicas/apiacta/1967/1/04.pdf
Table 2. Third Column Mortality per cent On bee bread (natural pollen) it was 14%. On Soy bean flow and Dried Brewers Yeast it was 19.3% On Soy Bean Flour, Dried Brewers Yeast and Pollen it as 17%

Second Study:
http://docsdrive.com/pdfs/ansinet/jbs/2006/734-737.pdf
Table 3 Cumulative mortality percentages of honey bees
At 33 days the mortality rates were:
Bee bread 64%
DietI 84%
Diet II 74.5%
Diet III DP+SB 74%

Third study:
http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/alimentacion/53_carbohidratos.pdf
Studying toxicity of carbohydrates in pollen substitutes (galactose, lactose, raffinose, stachyose, gllucuronic acid, alacturonic acid, polygalacturonic acid, and pectin)

Table 1 shows mortality at 8 days and 16 days at some percent they considered the amount you would find in pollen substitute.

Fourth study:
http://www.extension.org/pages/28844/honey-bee-nutrition#2.7._Pollen_Substitute_for_Bees

Section 2.7
Paragraph 3
Gregory (2006) reported that for longevity inside small colonies of bees fed different diets, ranked by superiority: fresh pollen > Feed-Bee® > Bee-Pro®..

Fifth study:
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/pdf-files/Haydak 2.pdf

This came up the first time for me but doesn’t seem to be responding right now. It compared typical ingredients (Soy flour, dry milk, egg yolks etc.) and their effect on mortality of bees. Mortality was lowest with pollen, of course.

Sixth study:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2307/4217075
Section 3.1 Results
“By ingesting pollen in the first few days after emerging, young worker bees develop the food-juce (pharyngeal) and wax glands, most important socially and the abdominal fat body on which life span depends. The developmental stage of glands and fat body depends on quality and amount of the pollen nourishment (Maurizio 1954, Wahl 1963 with further references). With high quality pollen, glands and fat body are better developed and life expectancy is highest. Pollen has an optimal effect only when available in abundance. Pollen deficiency leads to small glands and a thinner fat body and shortens life; without any pollen or other protein and vitamin nourishment at all, glands and fat body remain rudimentary and lift span is minimal.

We investigated whether there are analogous links between pollen intake and bee’s pesticide sensitivity…

Deaths withing 24 h after Dicopur feeding began are lowest in each case for bees fed high quality (mixed or rape) pollen ad lib., deaths are significantly higher in bees fed insufficient pollen or poor quality dandelion pollen or pollen substitute, and highest of all in exclusively sugar-fed bees…”

Seventh Study:
http://www.ibra.org.uk/articles/20080611_99
“Effect of a home-made pollen substitute on honey bee colony development”
I don’t have access to it, but the abstract says:
“Colonies were then equally divided among three treatments: (1) fed pollen substitute, (2) fed bee-collected bee bread, or (3) no supplement. In 2002 the design was similar except that the bee bread treatment was replaced with a control treatment without pollen trap or supplements. The pollen substitute was readily consumed by bees, and brood development (fraction of larvae achieving pupa) did not differ among treatments. In 2002, longevity of bees was highest in colonies fed pollen substitute…”


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

**Sixth study:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2307/4217075
Section 3.1 Results
“By ingesting pollen in the first few days after emerging, young worker bees develop the food-juce (pharyngeal) and wax glands, most important socially and the abdominal fat body on which life span depends. The developmental stage of glands and fat body depends on quality and amount of the pollen nourishment (Maurizio 1954, Wahl 1963 with further references). With high quality pollen, glands and fat body are better developed and life expectancy is highest. Pollen has an optimal effect only when available in abundance. Pollen deficiency leads to small glands and a thinner fat body and shortens life; without any pollen or other protein and vitamin nourishment at all, glands and fat body remain rudimentary and life span is minimal.**


seams to me these studies are promoting the benefit of protein-lots of dated stuff to wade through out there-but the basic
message is protein charged bees live longer than protein deficient bees-pollen has always been top shelf -when it comes to 
a protein analysis to use as a foundation for your bees nutrition-However with the clear benefit of protein and balanced nutrition
being a mile stone for the beekeeping industry- we have developed and continue to develop protein subs that Exceed and surpass 
the expectations of a diet of pollen as its main protein source-with this being said-It should be clear that todays formulas are not what they used to be-But if you speak of a sub that dose not met the mark in its nutritional needs- then you are not going to get 

the benefit are you-and like the man says YOU CANT ARGUE WITH SUCCESS -- RDY-B


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> >Fifth study:
> http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/pdf-files/Haydak 2.pdf





> Summary:
> Thus it appears that offering pollen substitutes to the spring packages established under favorable conditions is not necessary because the supply of natural pollen available at that time usually covers the needs of the bee population.


If I don't tank pollen from the hive why do they need supplements?


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Acebird said:


> If I don't tank pollen from the hive why do they need supplements?


 If you don't need 8 frames of bees the first week of February, you don't.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

RDY-B post #24 very well said.


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## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

I appreciate all the scientific input. Since I am still new I am always learning.

Back to my original question...is there a brand of pollen substitute that you recommend?

Let me put it another way...should I buy the winter patties sold by Mann Lake? Should I buy MegaBee? Etc., etc., etc.,

I don't want to constantly feed my bees pollen substitute. I just want to get a couple of weak hives through the winter.

Thanks!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

I just got over a tiff from a guy from Placer co about this, he say ultra bee all the way. Here is a recent ad from them I want you guys & gals to tell me what is wrong with the profile. The one that gets it right with receive a bunch of FREE NUTRA BEE.



Keith http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/ultrabeeprofile.jpg


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Keith, why would the protein level differ between the dry and the pattie? Or am I missing something here?.....Bill


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Dave, I would suggest you google these products and then you should have all the info that you need to make a good judgement, they are your bees and your money being spent on the purchace of the pollen substitute. Every body here in this forum who keeps bees will have followed their own path, whether they use the substitute or not. This should not be a matter of contenion but a matter of choice....Bill


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Will you actually ship 1 50 lb bag? Cause, that's about what I need.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

David LaFerney said:


> Will you actually ship 1 50 lb bag? .


Are you asking me David ?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Keith - Yes. Although now, I realize that wasn't your ad. Will you though?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

David LaFerney said:


> Will you though?


David, I will BUT, you have to answer the quiz, Look at the link, study the profile in brown.

I will give you a hint, it start's with the letter "T".


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

I compared the cost /lb of the dry vs the patties and their numbers do not add up. Sugar must cost more to make the patties.
Delivered?!
They could add thier fat %
The DeGroot amino acids comparison can be questioned.


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## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

The Threonine is wrong.

Hey, since this is my thread and you have received a lot of free advertising, how about sending ME some FREE pollen substitute! After all, I was the one in need here!

Thanks Keith!!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

davel said:


> free advertising,


In that case, Barry would be in line, after all this is his site .

OK, Davel, we need to get you up to speed, HINT, 10 essential amino acids needed by honeybees.


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## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

There's no Tryptophan (1.0).

There, I win. PM me for my shipping info.

Thanks!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well done, Davel, Lets let the rest catch up to speed on this thread, the ones in Placer co can use all the help they can get.


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## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

Here's more if you need it:

If one of these essential amino-acids is not present in the amount required by the bees, then the bees cannot fully digest as protein all the protein they have eaten.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

one more question Keith or any one. On the ultra bee, isn't the lysine low on it? all other amino acids are double degroots recommended profile except for the lysine so isn't it true that is the limiting amino acid? So if i have my info right the bees can only use half of the other amino acids because of the lysine?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

swarm_trapper said:


> one more question Keith isn't the lysine low on it? So if i have my info right the bees can only use half of the other amino acids because of the lysine?


Nick, yes on the Lysine, also don't forget they left out Tryptophan all together, To quote Degroot, then intentionally leave out one of the 10 essential amino acids is @$#%&. They say, "it the gold standard of bee feed" sounds more like fools gold to me.

"Empyreal75" corn protein by Cargill, It's easy to soar like an eagle when your surrounded by Turkeys.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

12/14/2011
 Pollen substitute will produce "fatter" winter bees 

Pollen substitute will produce "fatter" winter bees in areas (like the west) where pollen supplies are short in the late summer and fall. Fatter bees, with more stored nutrients, winter better and rear more brood the next spring than non-fed bees.
Dr. Eric C. Mussen [email protected]


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Davel, well done on this thread, I have your mailing info one last Question, how many hives do you have, need to know how much NUTRA BEE to send you? Also since it's that time of year, David La Ferney & WWW could you PM me your mailing Address.


P.S. Davel, I don't want to hear you got 10,000 hives. lol


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## standman (Mar 14, 2008)

Hey, if Davel needs to, he can "adopt" my bees for the winter! 

To all, I really appreciate the tone of this discussion. I think this is a case where all of the experts are right: the ideal situation is bees with plenty of pollen, but when that is lacking, a quality feed is a great tool in the beekeeper's arsenal.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Keith, thank you for your kindness, and thank you for the tone and direction in this fine thread, well done. And davel I hope all your questions received their answers on this fine thread which you started, merry Christmas to all....Bill


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

An interesting aside to this thread is that maize is naturally low in lysine, methionine, and tryptophan. Breeding work in the last 30 years has significantly improved the amino acid profile, but it is only with selected stock that higher levels are present. I ordered some high lysine and some high methionine corn from ars-grin a few months ago with the intent of crossing it to develop a better protein profile locally adapted corn.

Why is this important? It would increase the feed efficiency for most livestock. Chickens in particular would benefit from more protein if they are fed a corn diet.

DarJones


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

a couple of posts on bee-l about this same topic.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...-L&9=A&I=-3&J=on&d=No+Match;Match;Matches&z=4

The relatively poor performance of colonies supplemented
with pollen before wintering requires explanation.

This treatment was implemented to test
the hypothesis that fall pollen feeding would be nutritionally
beneÞcial to the wintering population and
might generate more productive colonies the next
spring. In a separate study that examined the effect of
fall pollen supply on the timing and development of
the population of winter bees, we found that colonies
that were supplemented with pollen in the fall tended
to rear a greater number of workers over an extended
length of time before brood rearing ceased for the
winter compared with colonies with lower pollen supplies
(Mattila 2005). However, proportionally fewer of <------
these fall-reared bees wintered, presumably because 
nutritional reserves in workers were allocated to the
fall nursing effort rather than to overwintering physiology.

fall feeding continued for approx 2 wk longer than it
had during the previous fall, which may have exacerbated
the brood rearing “burn-out” of fall-reared
workers that needed to overwinter, making them relatively
less productive the next spring.

Influence of Pollen Diet in Spring on Development of Honey Bee Colonies
H. R. MATTILA AND G. W. OTIS
J. Econ. Entomol. 99(3): 604-613 (2006)

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...-L&9=A&I=-3&J=on&d=No+Match;Match;Matches&z=4

The value of pollen supplements in fall is questioned:

Even though pollen-supplemented colonies reared the most
workers during the autumn, they did not produce larger populations
of winter bees than control or pollen-reduced colonies, which
means that the majority of the additional workers that were produced
in pollen-supplemented colonies were short-lived workers <--------
that died before the colonies wintered. In contrast,
pollen-reduced colonies suspended brood rearing sooner and
produced relatively fewer autumn-reared workers than colonies
with pollen supplements, but these workers were longer lived
and proportionately more of them wintered. As a result, winter
bee populations were similar in size among all colonies, regardless
of treatments that hastened or prolonged the natural
disappearance of pollen resources. It is remarkable that such
treatments only affected when these long-lived workers were
produced in honeybee colonies, not how many long-lived
workers resulted.

Mattila and Otis
Ecological Entomology (2007), 32, 496–505


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## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

standman said:


> Hey, if Davel needs to, he can "adopt" my bees for the winter!


I don't want to feed the bees during the winter but I feel I have no choice in order to get them through.

I would be glad to take your bees if you don't want them!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> Chickens in particular would benefit from more protein if they are fed a corn diet.
> 
> DarJones


Why not just let them eat meat, bugs and insects, larvae and worms like they are suppose to? Corn makes them fat, produces pail and bland tasting eggs. Corn makes cattle fat in general and then when we eat the cattle it makes us fat eventually developing preventable diseases so people have to live on pills for the remainder of their life. We would be far more healthier if we limited the amount of corn we eat by whatever means. So would all animals.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

to post #49 by wildbranch.

i didn't read the studies, but if valid they suggest that even giving the bees real pollen in the fall offers no advantage for overwintering, as some have already pointed out regarding longevity.

maybe it's another example of bees making better beekeepers than beekeepers making bees.

it does make sense to supplement when they begin their build up in the spring though. for those of you that do, would the time for that be when you start seeing brood again?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

FYI:
There is a lot of fish meal in poultry rations and it have been used in honey bee pollen supplements.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> but if valid they suggest that even giving the bees real pollen in the fall offers no advantage for overwintering, as some have already pointed out regarding longevity.


That statement is just false, there is tons of data showing sub feeding & overwintering.
Keith


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

squarepeg said:


> to post #49 by wildbranch.
> 
> i didn't read the studies, but if valid they suggest that even giving the bees real pollen in the fall offers no advantage for overwintering, as some have already pointed out regarding longevity.
> 
> it does make sense to supplement when they begin their build up in the spring though. for those of you that do, would the time for that be when you start seeing brood again?


Pretty good discussion here:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-2/


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I've always relied on Brother Adam's observations re feeding bees. He stated to feed in fall only enough to get the bees through the worst of the winter and then do the main feeding the next spring. His reasoning was that processing and storing the feed was such a metabolic stress on the bees that it often caused them to die out over winter. I would add to this rule that feeding should only be done when the bees can take cleansing flights. Otherwise you can induce severe dysentery which also reduces survival. I would apply this rule to feeding of sugar or of pollen substitute.

I might add that the only feeding I've done in several years is to put a super of honey on a colony that is light on stores. I keep some supers of dark honey for just that purpose. It is by far the cheapest and fastest way of feeding bees. Keep in mind that I am in a location that produces an abundance of pollen. My bees were collecting pollen over the last 2 days and they will be collecting fresh pollen again about the 15th of February.

Acebird, re your comment on eating corn, that is precisely the reason why I want to breed a more protein balanced corn. The corn we grow and use today is a very unbalanced source of carbohydrates with relatively little protein. If the protein content is improved, then the corn will supply more of the nutrients required. I love to let my chickens scratch for their food, but if they don't get some help along the way they don't lay very many eggs. I feed them just enough to maintain regular egg laying. I will also call you on the part about eating less corn. If eaten in a balanced diet including legumes and other vegetables, nixtamalized corn can be a part of a very balanced diet as proven by native Americans for the last several thousand years. You might look up "kwashiorkor" and see what it is and how it occurs. Perhaps you would be better off eating less beef?

DarJones


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

cam, just read the page you referenced. pretty good site there, just discovered it recently myself. will have to spend some more time on it.

what i take from that page is that the protein sub is most important when the bees are actively rearing brood and may not have an adequate supply out in the field. the author suggests that if the bees are rearing drones they may be in good shape as is.

like dar, it looks like i'm blessed with at least some forage almost year-round. i do currently have some pollen-sub/candy in a couple of weak nucs that i started late, and may give a little to all of the hives when they start brood rearing again in a couple of months.

my goal for next year though is to hopefully have enough stores to leave without having to feed anything.

sorry keith, i'm no expert. looks like another one of those issues where the opinion is divided. i'm glad i had a chance to discover your product however, and i'll be looking to order some when what i have is gone.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> cam, just read the page you referenced. sorry keith,


SQUAREPEG, no need to be sorry, it's how WE all learn. At the bottom of Randy page he talks about a buddy he has feeding loads of sub, Hmmmmm.




P.S. Randy & I have been close freinds for nearly 30 years.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>At the bottom of Randy page he talks about a buddy he has feeding loads of sub, Hmmmmm.

you mean the one who's rearing brood all winter and making early splits?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> >At the bottom of Randy page he talks about a buddy he has feeding loads of sub, Hmmmmm.
> 
> rearing brood all winter and making early splits?


Yep!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

that's pretty cool. so is there any risk of me having sub in my small nucs, since they are not rearing any brood at this time? i have beetle traps inside, although i haven't seen a single shb in over a month. by risk i mean it's probably too early for them to start building up, and i'm thinking they shouldn't be stimulated to do so.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> That statement is just false, there is tons of data showing sub feeding & overwintering.
> Keith


could you please post some references that would apply to the colder climates like N.Y. and not california? I personally have never had to feed supliments as my bees seem to do just fine on what nature provides. looking at randy Olivers graph, even if you adjusted it for out climate doesn't give much bang for the buck.:no:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike, I think this is another case where there is a difference in goals between commercial and hobby. Any business is trying to control expenses and losses and has to bet on the future so much of there expenditures could be considered insurance (reducing risk). If you have 10 hives and you loose 8 you can still be in the hobby. I don't feed my bees or provide pollen substitutes because I don't take all I can from the hive. As a hobbyist I can leave a healthy surplus.


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## Thermwood (May 29, 2010)

Feeding protein supplement is not the same as feeding honey/syrup. Bees need protein to live and will readily eat patties while leaving stored pollen alone for broodrearing. When a bee runs out of protein....it dies. Feeding a little extra protein going into winter might benefit the health of the bees more than the slight stimulation to lay a few more eggs as the shorter day length also has a large affect on broodrearing. There is a good chance in the colder climates that if the bees can't cover the brood they won't raise it. California being milder the bees will do more but right now with the daylength at its shortest won't be doing as much as they will 3 weeks from now.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

I'd like to know how I can obtain some Nutra-Bee. Does anyone have a website, email or other contact information?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Before you get on the pollen sub bandwagon, please remember that feeding should only be done when the bees can take cleansing flights. If you feed when bees are confined to the hive, dysentery will show up most of the time. Keith Jarrett is in California where bees can fly most of the year. Most of us don't have that luxury. You can feed any time you know there is likely to be a cleansing flight within 2 weeks. If you feed and the bees stay confined for a month, well, you get the idea.

Squarepeg, start feeding the end of January. We usually have cleansing flights sometime between the 10th and 15th of February.

DarJones


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Fusion_power said:


> Before you get on the pollen sub bandwagon, please remember that feeding should only be done when the bees can take cleansing flights. DarJones


Well, There are some folks, mmm like ah... Nick Noyes, a beesource member, that runs thousands of hives, uses NUTRA BEE and winters his bees in potato cellers, maybe he can chimme in on this. Gee, a just wonder what his thoughts will bee?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dar,
Aren't your bees flying now? It's been in the 70s in SC where sub has been fed every week or two since early November.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Look in old editions of Hive & Honeybee you can see photos of Univ of Minnesota feeding pollen sub in dead of winter, does nothing but benefit the colony.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I have to say i am not so sure or agree with fall pollen feeding, but i also agree it should be done when the plants have been stressed during the growing season. That said, I am not sure my tests were not compromised because of all of our flooding and wet spring, summers and falls. As well, due to the hard weather conditions the reduced cleansing flights during the summer and winter.
I hope to try again when life gets back to normal, what ever that may be.
The last two years i fed pollen sub (global patties) in the fall and have had the highest bee losses. I do not know if it was because the falls decided to become our summer, with temps way above average, which with the pollen and heat, stimulated brood rearing when they should have been getting ready for winter, or if the extra pooping caused some issues with bees not making it back to the hives in the winter, or what.
This year i would have feed the pollen again had our supplier not been out. 
What is a girl to do....undecided in this matter. I see the advantages, I just do not know if the experience colored my judgement a little. I did give what sub i had left to the hives i thought could use it. The ones which were just a little light on bees or did not perform as well as i would have liked.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> That statement is just false, there is tons of data showing sub feeding & overwintering.
> Keith


I would still like too see the tons of data showing sub feeding helps overwintering if its available??


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I would still like too see the tons of data showing sub feeding helps overwintering if its available??


OK Mike, Joe Trayor, Randy Oliver,Frank Eischen & Graham (2008), Almond Board, Project Apis, fat bees skinny bees, & Zachary Huang ABJ Aug 2010.

The DATA is everywhere, A person would have had to been in a cave the last five years not to have noticed. 

IN MY OPINION, THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF CCD, NUTRITION MITES.
Keith


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> NUTRITION MITES.
> Keith


 What are NUTRITION MITES.??? Just kidding I know what ya mean


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Keith Jarrett said:


> IN MY OPINION, THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF CCD, NUTRITION MITES.
> Keith


So a colony that died out in the summer from CCD was the result of not feeding subs in the winter? After reading about the new nosema strain you are probably not far off on the nutrition mites but I don't think a pollen sub will help. But maybe it will.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

mac said:


> What are NUTRITION MITES.???


Well fed mites.lol


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Sub feeding is mentioned here.

http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/overwintering-of-honey-bee-colonies/


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>Squarepeg, start feeding the end of January. We usually have cleansing flights sometime between the 10th and 15th of February.

thanks dar, so far they haven't gone more than a few days without one. january might be a different story though.

i didn't use subs last year, and the four hives i had built up pretty good i thought. i have five nucs that i want to build up quickly this spring, so i'll probably use some on them.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Keith Jarrett said:


> OK Mike, Joe Trayor, Randy Oliver,Frank Eischen & Graham (2008), Almond Board, Project Apis, fat bees skinny bees, & Zachary Huang ABJ Aug 2010.
> 
> The DATA is everywhere, A person would have had to been in a cave the last five years not to have noticed.
> 
> ...


I would add virus, which of course, is vectored by the mites


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> OK Mike, Joe Trayor, Randy Oliver,Frank Eischen & Graham (2008), Almond Board, Project Apis, fat bees skinny bees, & Zachary Huang ABJ Aug 2010.
> 
> The DATA is everywhere, A person would have had to been in a cave the last five years not to have noticed.
> 
> ...


Its winter here so yes I'm back in my cave, read what you posted and I'll agree If I lived in Calif. or Texas this year I would have fed supp. But I'll stick with my previous post about using in the fall for Northern beeks. I copied below what "I" considered of consequence from the names you posted. all the data should be required reading in your from calif. or polinating Almonds or had/having a drought but of little value to me. I solved most potential pollen problems by going to 2 1/2 or three deeps 30 years ago, anybody that wants to try it in the fall look in the bottom box and let me know how much pollen you see.





#1. Joe Traynor has authored 2 books, “Ideas in Soil and Plant Nutrition” and “Almond <-----
Pollination Handbook for Almond Growers and Beekeepers”. He has donated the 
profits for bee research, primarily for parasitic mite control. 


#2. EISCHEN + GRAHAM 2008 OPTIMUM TIME FOR FEEDING PROTIEN TO WINTERIG HONEY BEE COLONIES IN PREP FOR ALMOND POLLINATION
#3.dr Huang abj article
IT DOESN'T COPY WELL FROM ONLINE ARTICLE BUT ONLY REFERENCES SPRING POLLEN


Recent studies 
have shown that spring pollen supplement can work as insurance (when spring weather is bad) for faster spring buildup and higher <----spring
honey yield (Mattila and Otis, 2006a), and can reduce the effects of varroa parasitism (Janmaat and Winston, 2000) and nosema 
infection (Mattila and Otis, 2006b). Degrandi-Hoffman et al. (2008) evaluated three diets, Bee-Pro Feed-Bee, andMegaBee
in two separate trials. In both trials,Bee-Pro and MegaBee patties wereconsumed at rates similar to pollen cake, but 
Feed-Bee was consumed significantly less.Higher food consumption was significantly correlated with increase in brood area and 
adult population size. According to this study, MegaBee appeared to be superior to 
both Bee-Pro R and Feed-Bee R in terms ofbrood production or adult population. 

Randy Oliver I copied below mostly from his fat bee acticles. in most of his comments he specificly says cal. bees or beeks.


post from bee-l

I just love watching Pete and Bob hammer on each other! Especially when you
are both right!

Re Matilla and Otis (I'm doing this from memory), they trapped huge amounts
of pollen during their study in an attempt to create a pollen dearth.
However, most traps only collect about 50% of the incoming pollen. When I
analyzed their data, the 50% that made it into the hives far exceeded any
amount of natural pollen that I could dream of ever seeing in the fall in <-------
Calif!

So none of their tested hives experienced any sort of pollen dearth, and
supplemental pollen feeding was not economically justified.

Note also that their bees were going into a much colder winter than many of
those waiting to go into almonds, so we are not comparing apples to apples.
Research by Dr Frank Eischen demonstrated that hives wintered in colder
Calif mountains performed very differently than those in the warmer Valley.
Valley hives may not form true "winter bees" as are formed in Canada. <----------

The economic value of feeding pollen sub is completely dependent upon the <-----------
environment around the hives!

Randy Oliver
Grass Valley, CA
www.ScientificBeekeeping.com



In my previous articles in the Fat Bees series I discussed the importance of vitellogenin in colony protein dynamics, and the feeding of pollen supplements. Since writing those articles, I’ve had the pleasure of spending some time with Dr. Gordon Wardell, who is the developer of the Tucson Bee Diet, MegaBee. I’ve been able to use the product a bit in the field, and would like to share my initial impressions. But first, Dr. Wardell brought an important paper to my attention (Otis, et al. 2004). The authors compared the proteins in “summer” and “winter” bees. In the winter bees, they found a great increase in the metabolically-active vitellogenin, and yet an even greater increase in another protein, tentatively identified as arylphorin.
However, the finding that most caught my attention was that the total amount of storage proteins that they measured in the bees’ bodies was not nearly enough to continue brood rearing during the winter for any amount of time. Apparently, the colony is dependent upon pollen previously stored in the combs, or upon midwinter foraging, to provide enough protein for early brood rearing. This finding makes me wonder how some of our California colonies that enter the winter without a speck of visible pollen stores are able to build up at all in early January! Perhaps that is why they forage for alder and other pollens so desperately during those cold winter days.
Perhaps fall feeding of supplement is important not only to pump the bees full of vitellogenin and other storage proteins, but also to allow them to squirrel it away in the combs above the brood nest for later use. If that is the case, we should look into which supplements store best in the combs! Alternately, January protein feeding of colonies building for almond pollination may be critical if weather or lack of pasture precludes pollen foraging at that time

If you want to maintain colonies that are as big as Sumo wrestlers, they must continually eat like Sumo wrestlers—either from natural forage, or by supplementation. You can’t wait until the last minute to beef up a contender! Feeding only in late fall or winter may be too little, too late. This point was brought home with a vengeance to California beekeepers this season. Our early summer drought shut down colonies in July. Those beekeepers who began supplemental feeding in July now have much stronger colonies than those who waited until late August. It is easy to lose colony “momentum” –once they start to ramp down due to dearth, they are much harder to restart, than they are to maintain with minimal supplementation.

I’ve found that by wintering strong, pollen-rich colonies with plenty of quality honey stores, that there is no need for spring syrup feeding. Those colonies build up just fine on their own if they have adequate pollen—either from early spring alders and brassicas, or from supplement. 

The bees have a natural cycle in temperate climes, and you are fighting their instincts if you try to stimulate them to brood up between the first of November and the winter solstice. However, by New Year’s day, they are ready to roll, if the weather is warm enough (as it usually is in California), and they will respond to feeding if the colony is composed of well-fed winter bees who have not previously reared brood or foraged, and have not been compromised by varroa or nosema. 

A colony that has reduced brood rearing during dearth may have few remaining young or mid-aged bees, and will therefore not be able to immediately assimilate much protein (remember the loss of momentum mentioned above?). A hungry colony diverts its efforts toward foraging, rather than broodrearing. Mid-aged are specialized to digest the proteins and lipids (fats) in pollen; older forager bees shift their enzymes toward the processing of nectar (or syrup) (Jimenez 1996). When you start feeding protein supplement, older bees are forced to revert to protein processing, and must shift enzyme production and regenerate their hypopharyngeal glands, which takes a bit of time (remember this point when I discuss Nosema ceranae later). Keep this in mind when feeding. A California colony that shuts down broodrearing in late July will not be able to utilize pollen supplement well in late September, since it will have few nurse bees with the proper enzymes. In addition, bees parasitized by the varroa mite become nutritionally compromised, so August mite control is critical for good nutrition.

The most bang for the feeding buck is in late summer. California beekeepers should start feeding when natural pollen drops off in August, and by September at the latest. Continue as long as bees will take it, generally until about November 1st. Do not let colonies go long between feedings if they are actively rearing brood. :thumbsup:


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

going back to my cave now, but randy did say kieths patties had the highest protein content:shhhh:


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I solved most potential pollen problems by going to 2 1/2 or three deeps 30 years ago, anybody that wants to try it in the fall look in the bottom box and let me know how much pollen you see.


Well said, Mike, I am known for running triples like you and YES pollen on bottom, brood in the middle and honey on top as you stated. What I do Mike is in the fall reverse the top & bottom boxes. But the trick is to feed sub so that they will save as much as possible of the natural pollen for the winter. Come spring, not much natural pollen left in the hives.This is the main reason for feeding while there is still pollen coming in. 

Just think about this, the avg hive consumnes more than 100lbs of pollen a year, in about three weeks a bee goes from a tiny egg to adult, that is a huge prosses, what other animal/insect does this, not many, a huge amount of resources are needed.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/productive-management-of-honey-bee-colonies/

To support what Keith is saying:

"Beekeepers are inclined to take for granted that their colonies have ample pollen reserves. However, there is no beekeeping region, north or south, where all colonies have adequate pollen reserves every year to insure their optimum development for the production of package bees, honey, or to pollinate commercial crops. Poor queens can be replaced, sugar can be fed when honey stores are deficient, hive space can be provided and properly organized, but the beekeeper is dependent upon the natural resources of the locality for the pollen that is required to develop large colony populations for a specific production period."

"Where pollen reserves are inadequate, bulk pollen supplemented1 by soybean flour may be used to advance early brood production. Colonies are able to rear more than six times the amount of brood from a given quantity of pollen when it is added to three times its weight of expeller-processed soybean flour and mixed with heavy sugar sirup (2: 1) to form a dough like cake."

What Michael said:

"Pollen supplements, however, are not equal to natural pollen reserves"

Since I'm not in the production of package bees or pollinating commercial crops, I have not found a need for supplements. Here, pollen is quite plentiful and not found lacking.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I know from experience that feeding pollen sub can accelerate spring development. Where I go sideways in a hurry is when someone suggests feeding pollen sub in mid winter when there is no possibility of cleansing flights. I have seen the results of such feeding and it is NOT a pretty sight. I would put a caveat in that I have not seen the effects of mid-winter feeding when bees are in a wintering cellar though I would generally tend to avoid such feeding until within a few weeks of being able to take the bees back outdoors.

My position re feeding would be that the beekeeper should know the reason why he is feeding. For example, if there is a shortage of pollen in the fall, then feed. If there is a need for very early spring development for almond pollination, then feed. If you want to build the bees up early so they can be split, then feed. In each case, understand why you are feeding and what you are expecting. When it comes to feeding in mid-winter when there is no possibility of a cleansing flight any time soon, I would put that outside the scope of the reasons for feeding. If you want to change the buildup that drastically, then move the bees south where the climate is amenable to such manipulation.

Here in the southeast we have pollen coming in most months of the year. That pollen may not always be nutritionally adequate, as for example maize pollen is seriously lacking in a couple of amino acids the bees need. 

I watched my bees bringing in small loads of orange pollen today. It is about 55 degrees outside with bright sunshine. This is an excellent flying day for winter bees.

DarJones


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## marenostrum (Nov 18, 2011)

Keith Jarrett said:


> OK Mike, Joe Trayor, Randy Oliver,Frank Eischen & Graham (2008), Almond Board, Project Apis, fat bees skinny bees, & Zachary Huang ABJ Aug 2010.
> 
> The DATA is everywhere, A person would have had to been in a cave the last five years not to have noticed.


The data might be everywhere, but referencing still has some benefits, as to provide a healty discussion ground. On the Web, I found the last two sources mentioned. I have to say that both of them are irrelevant with what is being discussed here; they are not answering what *wildbranch2007* asked.

Zachary Huang's Honey Bee Nutrition article *does not say anything* when to feed a supplement or even if we should feed supplement or not. It just evaluates some nutrition sources. Even under this condition, what I read from him makes me very suspicious for the supplements. Quoting from Toxic Substances in Nectar and Sugar Supplement subtitle:



> Adult bees can utilize glucose, fructose, sucrose, trehalose, maltose, and melezitose, but bees are unable to digest rhaminose, xylose, arabinose, galactose, mannose, lactose, raffinose, melibiose or stachyose. Most of these sugars are also toxic to honey bees. About 40% of sugars found in soybeans are toxic to bees, and therefore care should be taken when using soybeans as a pollen substitute.


What's more, Mr. Huang conclusion briefly critisize monoculture practise and calls for more natural ways to keep bees. Should we understand this as a call for substitute consumption? Is it a non-caveman-type of joke?

The book Fat Bees Skinny Bees - a manual on honey bee nutrition for beekeepers is totally another story. Yes, that book -in some way- promotes the usage of supplements, but doesn't say that "supplements are very good for overwintering". It discusses, *under what conditions* they *can be* used. There are many parts of the book where the writer says openly or among the lines that substitutes can not be as good as pollen. Its hard to evaluate the 150 pages book here, entirely. To read it at long cave nights, direct link for its PDF file might be useful.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Marenostrum, In your post you present a bunch of "what if", example, critisize monoculture crops by Mr Huang, as if we are all in monoculture 100% of the time or that we all feed cheap low grade soybean meal for sub. 

I can pick apart anything to present a poor case study, even though 95% of the study is positive.
Keith

P.S Now I have to go watch SURVIOR to see how Jeff gets those cave fires started. lol


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