# How to begin TF from day zero?



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I don't think hive type has any correlation, but I would go with a screen bottom board. Set hive in full sun which will reduce varroa and Small Hive Beetles irrespective of any other factors. Stock? I'm not sure. I have yet to trust the small cell idea and my feeble attempts at regression have not produced anything worthwhile. I like the feral stock I catch in my area. Genetic testing of these ferals reveals a nice genetic variety/diversity. It's hard to argue against breeding queens from these locally adapted bees that can rise above my ineptitude and incompetance (most guys call them "survivors").


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

In my opinion the size and style of box has no relationship to being treatment free, even though the topbar and Warre folks might say so. Wood is wood, a box is a box. A screened bottom board might help, but in my experience they offer no advantage in saving bees from mites. You should avoid contaminated foundation to get a 100% clean poison free start. Local swarms have worked for me. More sunnier and more clay soils might reduce SHB. I go into winter with double the queens I want in spring. Nucs with locally mated, young, late summer queens survive much better than those with older queens.


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

I started with All medium frames and am glad I did. It is nice to be able to move any frame anywhere you want. I have some queens comming from B Weaver this spring, I have been told if you want trearment free bees, you have to start with treatmeant free bees. It is very hard to buy bees that have been treated, and then just go cold turkey with them. You will loose alot of bees. I think their queens were $30 a piece shipped, most people are getting $25 a queen. I think the extra $5 is worth it, although I have heard that their bees can get hot. I hope I get lucky with that. I have also heard that Purvis has good treatment free queens. Which would probably be better bees for you, since you are in Ohio. Oh yeah if you want to be treatment free, you have to resist all urges to put anything in your hives, except bees. There is no such thing as being 95 percent treatment free. Steve


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## Steven Tervort (Feb 16, 2012)

Split Split Split... In your research look into nucleus hives. The more you split and the less packages you have to buy the healthier your bees will be. I always find that the splits I start myself are always healthier than replacing dead-outs with packages.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

I would try to find out from other local beekeepers or the exterminators in your area if they get swarm calls and start with those bees if they are available.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

8 frame mediums would be a good start. When the mites come calling good luck. Have a plan to manage them if your bees can't. You may luck out and have low pressure naturally. Other than that you will have to select for hives that cope with mites along with IPM methods (brood breaks, splits etc....)


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

odfrank said:


> . I go into winter with double the queens I want in spring.


Not to derail the topic, but what's your logic in doing this?

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

location can be a big factor.

have a water source close enough to that the bees don't have to expend extra time and energy.

find a place with a relatively unobscured southeasterly exposure, and a good wind break to the northwest.

up on a slope is better than a deep 'frost pocket'.

morning sun with late afternoon shade works good in my clime.

the more 'natural' acreage the better, i.e. wooded areas, unmanaged fields, lot's of weeds and brush, ect.

swarm traps are a good way to get free bees.


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## 2Sox (Dec 17, 2011)

The best advice I can give you is to be prepared for a world of hurt. Expect losses. You WILL be tempted to treat your bees when your bees begin dying - when you open a hive and there are no bees inside - when bees from healthy hives rob the dead-outs and bring back an extra mite load, and unknown viruses. You'll start to think something like, "Well, if I do 'this', will I still be treatment free?" But if you get past this, you'll be stronger and more imaginative. I speak from my own experiences and temptations.

I don't treat. Period. I don't feed sugar syrup anymore either. I just leave my bees more honey than I think they'll need. I could always take some of that honey when the winter is over. A good friend in the Adirondacks with a rather large operation, doesn't treat either. We both replace our losses with splits, cut-outs, and swarm captures. I'm beginning to see a few colonies that have survived more than three years. It makes me smile. I feel I'm working with the scheme of things and letting evolution take its course. All things reach a dynamic equilibrium. It's the nature of things. It takes time and lots of patience on our part. But most of us on this list feel this way anyway.

If you are going to sell your honey and you are treatment free, you can get top price. In New York City, TF honey goes for $20/lb at the farmers' markets. I sell mine locally for $12/lb. If I were to sell in NYC, I'd charge $20/lb also.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>when bees from healthy hives rob the dead-outs and bring back an extra mite load, and unknown viruses......

pete, i would encourage you to have a responsible plan in place to prevent your hive from becoming so weak as to become a 'source' (via robbing) of mites and viruses to other healthy nearby colonies.

>You WILL be tempted to treat your bees when your bees begin dying......

if you don't treat, the problem must be dealt with in a responsible way. 

2sox, how do you keep your dying hives from becoming the source of diseases and pests to other bees?


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

If you freeze your frames for three days, will it kill any mites and their eggs.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

No need to freeze for mites. Just the absence of bees for a day will take care of that problem. Freezing will definitely eliminate shb and wax moth problems.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Grant said:


> Not to derail the topic, but what's your logic in doing this?Grant


Treatment free for me means that half or more of my hives die every winter. If I have double the amount I want in spring going into winter, I still end up with some viable hives in spring. And a lot of good material for bait hives.


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## 2Sox (Dec 17, 2011)

Squarepeg,

_how do you keep your dying hives from becoming the source of diseases and pests to other bees? _

The only way I know of to solve this problem is not to have a congested yard - not to have hives too close 
together. This past fall, I had a domino effect and lost three hives in that many weeks because of this. If my spacing was better, this _might_ not have happened. "Might" is the key word here.

_Treatment free for me means that half or more of my hives die every winter. If I have double the amount I want in spring going into winter, I still end up with some viable hives in spring. And a lot of good material for bait hives. - Odfrank
_

And I agree with Odfrank here. I've been fairly lucky - having only about a 20% loss - but I always expect more. This is what we have to expect if we go TF.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks 2sox.

(and i don't want to derail pete's inquiry here.)

i do wonder though, did you observe robbing as they collapsed?

did you have some way of keeping other people's bees and 'feral' bees from getting to your colonies as they died out?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

for pete's sake.... 

if anyone wants to pick up the conversation about what to do with dying hives, there have been some great replies already posted here:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?276552-dying-hives


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## 2Sox (Dec 17, 2011)

Squarepeg,

I observed robbing but at first I did not equate it with a dying colony. Thought they were trying to get some crushed honeycomb I was feeding this hive on top of the inner cover. (Smelled it through the vented super with screens that I have on top of it.) I just put a robbing screen on. I caught on a few days later.

A week later, at another hive I observed too many yellow jackets and black flies hanging about the entrance and that was the giveaway. Opened it up. Nothing inside.

Third one went down before I even turned around - so to speak. The damage was done. My other hives were just too strong to succumb. 

Two of these were from cut outs and were building up strongly enough for me to take a little honey. I had great hopes for both. One was established for three years and this surprised me too.. 

Robbing screens are one of the best beekeeping inventions ever. They work for what they are intended. The next best invention is the double screen board. Once you use one of these, you'll never do a newspaper combine again.


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## Whitetail (Feb 3, 2011)

Follow Grants advice on hive design and placement. Order stock from a treatment free operation. Someone mentioned Purvis, they are awesome to deal with, and have good stock. B Weaver probably is too, but I've heard complaints about aggressive tendencies. Probably because they have some African influence/exposure. I would get them from a source as far North as possible. Preferably local if you can find one. Requeen at the first sign of trouble...... This will keep your hives from getting in bad shape, and being "tempted" to treat. You don't have to expect huge losses. I haven't treated in years, and have had a winter survival rate of almost 99%. Beekeeping is a gamble treatment free or not. Lots of variables. Keeps things interesting.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

the main thing you can do is stack the odds in your favor as much as possible
start with queens bred for a awhile by treatment free keepers/breeders
start with as many hives as you reasonably can...there will be losses. Nucs are a great way to have back up resources (numbers) without large or multiple yards, and are in themselves somewhat more "resistant" to mites, although resistant is not the best word...resilient maybe?

most things can be changed as you go(if you have live bees to work with)...genetics-requeen, hive numbers-split, ect
If you were going to work with small cell it is probably easier to start out that way than to transition later.
good luck


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