# Advice in saving weak colony



## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

First off, this is my first year keeping bees. I have really enjoyed it and want to make it work. I bought a nuc a couple months ago. It seemed to be doing well, expanding like you would expect. I added another box to let them expand and they never really flourished. Also, discussing with the local bee supply store they recommended doing a mite treatment. I have checked for mites (screened bottom board and powdered sugar test) and haven't detected an issue but did the treatment anyway. I used Apiguard (thymol). Looking back it may have been too much stress on them but being new I was doing what was suggested.

Since doing the Thymol, they seemed to be even weaker (it wasn't until after the treatment I learned that Thymol can reduce the queen's effectiveness. They didn't mention that in the product sheet  ) I had the county bee inspector come do a check yesterday to make sure I wasn't dealing with something else. He checked for mites, didn't find any and stated that overall the bees seem to be healthy but that the queen is just not producing like she should. Since I only have one hive, he recommended splitting the hive in order to get 2 hives and see if a new queen would do better and quickly build a new hive. With that option I can either have them make a queen on their own or buy a new queen.

I also called the guy I bought my bees from and his recommendation was to dispatch the current queen, requeen the hive instead of splitting it. So I'm in a bit of a conundrum of what I should do. Any advice would be appreciated. If I'm going to do something I've got to act quickly. Thanks in advance.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

If they are already weak I would not split them, that would just make them weaker, especially if they have to make their own queen. 
Find a local queen, and put her in.

Again........one strong hive is better than two weak hives.


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

G3farms said:


> If they are already weak I would not split them, that would just make them weaker, especially if they have to make their own queen.
> Find a local queen, and put her in.
> 
> Again........one strong hive is better than two weak hives.


Thanks G3.

What is the best way to dispatch of the old queen? I've heard to kill her and leave her in the hive but that was when you are going to let the hive make a new queen. What is the process when re-queening?


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Me personally I just find the queen and drop her into a jar of rubbing alcohol (bait hive lure), then the next day install the new queen. 

You are asking one of those questions where you will get 25 different answers from 10 different keeps. LOL 

Just keep things simple and the bees will usually fix the foul ups we make.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Splitting does not mean 50/50 - so to create two weak hives (usually a poor choice anyway).
In this case splitting 90/10 (or 80/20) is just fine and, in fact, preferred.

Move that suspect queen into a 1-2 frame holding split (I would just make a brood-less, shook swarm as I came to like these).

Let the larger split raise a new queen IF still possible (while keeping them as large as possible so that they are capable of bringing some crop, not just standing about).

Still have your "bad" queen as a plan-B AND in case she still recovers.
No need to paint yourself into a corner.

IF you end up with few QCs and the "bad" queen stays bad - well, terminate the "bad" queen then and use the holding nuc to mate yourself a spare new queen (common sense and good practice).


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

GregV said:


> Splitting does not mean 50/50 - so to create two weak hives (usually a poor choice anyway).
> In this case splitting 90/10 (or 80/20) is just fine and, in fact, preferred.
> 
> Move that suspect queen into a 1-2 frame holding split (I would just make a brood-less, shook swarm as I came to like these).
> ...


Can you elaborate on a broodless shook swarm?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

landover50 said:


> Can you elaborate on a broodless shook swarm?


OK, 2-frame shook swarm (your queen holding nuc).

prepare a box to intake your shook swarm (any size)
place one frame of mostly honey/pollen - to keep them alive
place one frame largely empty - to have space for the queen to work
shake in full 3 frames of bees (or 4 frames not too full) from the donor hive
find and move queen into here
close in these 2 frames with a "follower board" (look up what it is if don't know); if you don't have one ready, it takes a couple minutes to cut one up from a cardboard box
done

Part of these bees will return back home to the donor hive (this is why you shake 3-4 frames, not just 2).

And so you have it.
You even can do 1-frame holding nuc similarly (essentially a giant queen cage).

So now, you only took a small fraction of the bees from the donor hive and, thus, your donor hive can continue working on the foraging best they can (while also raising new queens, assuming they have what it takes).

The small shook swarm holds your backup queen alive AND, under stress of being brood-less, they very well may get her back to her senses again. You have a bunch of nurse bees that have nothing else to do but to badger and feed the queen to get her into egg-laying asap.
If the backup queen does not restart properly, terminate her and pull an extra 1-2 QCs from the donor hive (before they hatch, obviously) and insert into the shook swarm for mating. This way you have insurance against a failed mating.


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

GregV said:


> OK, 2-frame shook swarm (your queen holding nuc).
> 
> prepare a box to intake your shook swarm (any size)
> place one frame of mostly honey/pollen - to keep them alive
> ...


Thanks much for the explanation. Would it be faster/more beneficial to buy a new queen instead of waiting to see if the donor hive will make a new one?


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

landover50 said:


> Thanks much for the explanation. Would it be faster/more beneficial to buy a new queen instead of waiting to see if the donor hive will make a new one?





GregV said:


> OK, 2-frame shook swarm (your queen holding nuc).
> 
> prepare a box to intake your shook swarm (any size)
> place one frame of mostly honey/pollen - to keep them alive
> ...


Also, should I feed them, i.e. sugar water and/or pollen patties?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

landover50 said:


> Thanks much for the explanation. Would it be faster/more beneficial to buy a new queen instead of waiting to see if the donor hive will make a new one?


Faster - sure.
Beneficial - who knows (often you end up losing the queen and your money spent, but it just depends).
If faster == more beneficial for you, then get a new queen.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

landover50 said:


> Also, should I feed them, i.e. sugar water and/or pollen patties?


I feed them when they have no food on their own.
You should check and see - then go forward per what you see.


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## creesbees (Aug 4, 2016)

I would feed them and give them a new queen. check to see if they are raising drones in a worker sized cell, or multiple eggs in a cell. Could indicate a laying worker. need to deal with the laying worker issue if you have one.


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

GregV said:


> I feed them when they have no food on their own.
> You should check and see - then go forward per what you see.


I accomplished the split on Friday. Placed one frame full of food and an empty frame in the new box with 3 shook frames of bees and the queen. I opened it up today. When I put the frame of nectar/pollen in I didn't notice eggs and it appears they have cleared out the semicircle area on both sides of the frame and she has laid eggs on both sides of the food frame. She has also laid a solid pattern on one side of the empty frame. I'm feeding sugar water and pollen as they still don't have many foragers coming and going. When should I check again and at what point do I begin to add another frame? Anything else I should be doing or looking for? Does it sound like the queen is doing like she should?

As for the original hive. How long before I check it to look for queen cells? I want to see if they are moving forward but don't want to destroy queen cells either. I've seen pictures and videos of queen cells but what/where should I be looking? Thanks everyone for your help.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I find that making a split to raise it's own queen takes 21-28 days before new queen is mated and laying from the day I do the split. I like to check back in 3-4 or 5 days to make sure they have started some queen cells, then I close them up and leave them lone for 28 days from when I made the split. Sometimes I get anxious and check after 21 days, but it's usually somewhere between then and 28 days that I actually find eggs.

For your old queen saved, just don't feed so much so fast that they fill up all space and plug out anywhere for the queen to lay. Add a frame as the ones they have are all used. Once they get 4-6 frames wide mostly covered in bees then they are usually pretty stable and can be moved to a full box if you like, or add a second story nuc box.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

landover50 said:


> When should I check again and at what point do I begin to add another frame? Anything else I should be doing or looking for? Does it sound like the queen is doing like she should?
> 
> As for the original hive. How long before I check it to look for queen cells? I want to see if they are moving forward but don't want to destroy queen cells either. I've seen pictures and videos of queen cells but what/where should I be looking? Thanks everyone for your help.


RayMarler already explained.

But - do realize you don't have to grow your 2-frame nuc either.
This is nothing but a back-up/helper nuc to hold a spare queen until you are sure you have a laying young queen.

You very well can steal the capped brood frame from them and give it to your strong hive so that the population there stays strong and keeps working on the honey harvest.
In return, give the nuc another empty frame to work on and so on.
Eventually, you'd terminate the old queen and combine the nuc reminder back to your original hive.
Up to you what it is you want.

Normally you do want a backup hive IF you only starter with one - then grow the nuc.
Other people have other plans and situations and don't need yet another nuc - then fold the nuc when it completed its role.


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

All, thanks for the information and advice. I'll get into the queen less hive today and let you know how it looks. 

I live in a very cold climate so I fully intend to combine the 2 together to hopefully give me one strong hive for the winter. If the nuc continues to produce brood, I'll use it to feed into the large hive. Since I'm late to need, it will be interesting to see how it goes.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

landover50 said:


> I live in a very cold climate


Add the region to your profile, so that people know and not wildly guessing.


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

GregV said:


> Add the region to your profile, so that people know and not wildly guessing.


Done. I live in northern Utah, but my microclimate is considerably colder than some of the surrounding areas.


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

GregV said:


> RayMarler already explained.
> 
> But - do realize you don't have to grow your 2-frame nuc either.
> This is nothing but a back-up/helper nuc to hold a spare queen until you are sure you have a laying young queen.
> ...


A quick check showed in the following pics. 

In the first, is that a failed attempt at queen cells? Should I have removed them?

The second pic appears to be good starts at queen cells?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

landover50 said:


> A quick check showed in the following pics.
> 
> In the first, is that a failed attempt at queen cells? Should I have removed them?
> 
> The second pic appears to be good starts at queen cells?


the first failed attempt is IMO where the Queen cell was attached to both combs , when you removed them they tore open.
the others are ar 5-7 day and about to be capped.. THEY CAN ALSO Be Attached to 2 combs.
every check has risk.
I one time torn 5 of 7 really nice swarm cells in 1/2 separating the hive bodies.
if they have starts resist opening them until the queen is laying.

GG


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> the first failed attempt is IMO where the Queen cell was attached to both combs , when you removed them they tore open.
> the others are ar 5-7 day and about to be capped.. THEY CAN ALSO Be Attached to 2 combs.
> every check has risk.
> I one time torn 5 of 7 really nice swarm cells in 1/2 separating the hive bodies.
> ...


Darn. Didn't even cross my mind that I destroyed them but makes sense. Live and learn I guess. Hopefully the others they have going work out. I won't open it up for another 3.5 weeks or so. Hopefully I open it to an abundance of eggs


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> the first failed attempt is IMO where the Queen cell was attached to both combs , when you removed them they tore open.


+1
May want to separate the frames wider to avoid this - just until you have a queen hatched


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

GregV said:


> +1
> May want to separate the frames wider to avoid this - just until you have a queen hatched


My intent is to not bother them for a few more weeks. Will it be okay or should I still get in and separate a little?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Just leave them alone then.
There is a chance they are already attached as we speak - best leave them alone.


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

Thanks much for all your help. I'll report back in a few weeks with results.


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

Since I split the hive it has been very quiet. Today I came out and there is a ton of activity around the hive. Is this normal or are they doing somethin







g9 else? Are they swarming?


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## Newbeek2021 (May 13, 2021)

Possibly trying to brace up your bottom board in fear of collapse!


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

Haha, funny guy. It's not as bad as it looks. The pic makes it look like it's about to fall in half but it's not.


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## Newbeek2021 (May 13, 2021)

Hehe, just teasin


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## GFWestTexas (Jul 10, 2021)

Might better make sure they aren’t being robbed.


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

Quick check, they seemed to have all their stored nectar. Not sure what was going on.


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## GFWestTexas (Jul 10, 2021)

That’s good didn’t see any fighting bees, or bees on the ground in the picture, but better safe. Maybe a small orientation flight which is a good sign.


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

It may have been because it didn't last long. I went out 30 min later and there was little flying. First year of bees for me. So much to learn.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

as each batch of brood hatches and matures to orientation, there is a time of day when they all go out and orient. There is noticeable extra activity for a while, then it gets back to normal.

GG


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

Went in last night for the post-split check. Didn't spot the queen but lots of eggs, larvae and starting to cap brood so she has been laying for about 9 days. It seems to have been successful, now hoping they build up fast to make it through the winter.


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## RNSwans (Jul 3, 2021)

G3farms said:


> Me personally I just find the queen and drop her into a jar of rubbing alcohol (bait hive lure), then the next day install the new queen.
> 
> You are asking one of those questions where you will get 25 different answers from 10 different keeps. LOL
> 
> Just keep things simple and the bees will usually fix the foul ups we make.


Do they have any pollen atored?


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## landover50 (Jul 7, 2021)

Yes. I did a quick check, not too thorough cause I didn't want to disturb too much but it appears the hive is as healthy as it's been all year. More nectar stored away than ever and starting to cap off honey. I'd reduced it to one brood box for the split but added another yesterday so they can expand.


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