# This picture makes me sick



## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

we wonder why our bees are unhealthy
http://www.bluediamond.com/applications/in-the-field/images/South2LRG258.jpg 


lots of open bloom and blue skys

even if it was early morning when this picture was taken the bees will still get a good dose of fungicide which i am sure they could do without.


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## Bradley_Bee (May 21, 2008)

I was told Paramount does not spray fungicide while the bees are there anymore. can anyone confirm?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

What about the guy spraying the stuff, imagine breathing that fog all day long. John


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## Almondralf (Jun 20, 2011)

Well just because you see a sprayer going through the orchard doesnt mean it makes anybody sick! Even organic growers own a spray rig and apply organic chemicals to their trees. This year a lot of growers will not need to spray fungicides during bloom since we have had such a dry Jan and Feb. I for example plan on doing a spray at the end of the bloom that is only nutrients.

There are many growers who do not apply any fungicides or insecticides during bloom! 

Please also remember that most bees come out of almonds very strong and need to be split afterwards - so be careful with statements like : Quote : "we wonder why our bees are unhealthy"


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

hey ralf get serious.


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## MABee (Jun 18, 2007)

I highly doubt the largest almond grower in the state isnt going to protect their crop!


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## megakg9 (Aug 3, 2011)

I don't know if it were my bees I don't want them exposed to any chemicals even if they are presumably bee safe .


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Do we know what is being sprayed?


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## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

If the picture makes people sick, without knowledge of what they are spraying, perhaps the photographer should be brought up on charges.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I agree with you ralf,

do the almond growers not tell beekeepers what their spraying intentions are?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

In _Almondralf's _defense, if you don't know what is being sprayed, how can you complain that it is toxic to bees?

_Boron_, for instance, is applied to almonds, sometimes at pink bud stage. Boron is not an insecticide or a fungicide, but is a foliar fertilizer absorbed through the tree foliage. That means is is sprayed on the leaves of the tree!



> Bloom is the key time for good B levels in almonds. Fall or pink bud are the best times for boron sprays. Full bloom boron foliar spray may reduce yield. Gradually increase B fertilizer rates if you are not satisfied with your current program. Excessive B fertilization can dramatically reduce yield.
> [url]http://www.agalert.com/story/?id=1262 [/URL]


According to this site, Boron has no specific toxicity to honeybees.
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33752

Of course, if you spray enough _water _on bees they will die, but does mean water is toxic in your definition?


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

I was at a meeting this evening, where Gorden Wardell, the bee biologist for Paramount Farms, spoke. He stated that Paramount does not spray anything when bees are in the orchards. Gordon is a beekeeper, and current president of our local club (South Valley Bee Club). He was one of several speakers tonight at a meeting in Shafter,
where about 100 beekeepers were present, to hear and discuss several situations regarding beekeeping problems.
Spraying fungicide was one of the topics. I came away with the impression that any spraying, due to other ingredients, even if the fungicide is supposed to be harmless to bees, can be disastrous to bees. One instance was the finding that the ingredient (I can't think of the word) to carry and make the mixture adhere was a bee killing culprit. Part of his explanation why Paramount has stopped spraying anything during almond bloom, was that tests they have done, find that the trees produce better without the bees being bothered as they do their job. This is over simplification of his statements, but it is the gist of it.


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

if you send bees to almonds you would know that they are spraying synthetic fungicide and you would also know that it is not the best thing for them. or just read here
http://www.bluediamond.com/applications/in-the-field/index.cfm?orchardID=1370

growers better pay big next year or they can hire humans like china, because the bees wont beeeeeee available


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>if you send bees to almonds you would know that they are spraying synthetic fungicide<

Yes you do. You know they are going to spray if its needed to protect the bloom from the fungus. You would too if it was your livelihood. We all know this stuff can be hard on bees. And we know that if they spray late in the day or at night, it lessens the damage. 

The growers problem is if he has a lot of acres and limited time to get the job done, he's gonna spray when he can. So for us its a risk assessment: Is the damage so severe that the pollination money doesn't cover it? In 36 years of going to almonds I have to say No its not.

The only alternative is to stay home if you think its too hard on the bees.They aren't going to quit spraying fungicides.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I remember the first time I was in an orchard checking bees when the spray rig came by. Before that the trees were alive with bees, after the trees were sprayed it was silent. I remember thinking "This guy just screwed up his pollination for the day. " But I guess he knew that and weighed that against losing his crop to disease.


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

The only alternative is to stay home if you think its too hard on the bees.They aren't going to quit spraying fungicides.[/QUOTE]

yes that is true.


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

but if the stuff is not good for the bees and the bees are sooo important to the almond growers..... maybe things will have to change with the times.
and maybe that change will be hiring all the out of work humans to go run around with a pollen brush. 

if it were 16 year old kids pollinating those blossoms would they spray them with fungicides to ?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I am left wondering if growers, like beekeepers, have a lot of different philosophies on the issue of spraying vs. not spraying or this chemical vs. that chemical. Is there a bit of paranoia in the decision making process or are these decisions pretty straightforward from a management standpoint?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

loggermike said:


> >The growers problem is if he limited time to get the job done, he's gonna spray when he can.


Ours is going on this morning. I was hoping that it would be scheduled once the bloom is a little closer to being over as that is better for the bees from a forage perspective. It not free to put on trust me. From a growers perspective the difference in its use and non use can make a big difference in production. At 5k a bin for shelled nuts most folks wont take the risk. 

* No one makes the bee guy show up for pollination*. When the economic alternative is superior every prudent person chooses the best return vs risk over the long run. Why do you think more bees stayed in Florida this year. 2+ buck honey makes it a lot easier decision to stay put than have your bees meet the sprayer. ( not that they don't spray in the oranges also) 

Not sure if there is any conclusive proof the fungicides by themselves are a culprit in bee demise. (to this point) The additives like the IGR"S have been noted to be an issue recently. The bees do like to abstain from the fields once it goes on. 

*For those who are to young to remember the bees used to go into the almonds for either free or just a few bucks. The build up on them was / is so superior the Old timers nearly did it for free in the early 50's and 60's. When is the last time your grower charged you for the almond pollen used to build your bees. WE are paid to SET NUTS... not build bees.......... although that does occur if you have been paying attention*.

If your not happy with those parameters find another source of income


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Hey Jimmy, this pic was taken last week, would you have benstung send that spray rig over here these things are getting out of hand. Heck that CCD is out of control again. 
http://youtu.be/PYbLbhZXizY


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Of course, if you spray enough _water _on bees they will die, but does mean water is toxic in your definition?


Water is toxic to both bees and humans.100% of people, or bees,who drink water die.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Keith "Hey Jimmy, this pic was taken last week."

:scratch:

Last week? Either those are some very scraggly almond trees in the background or you have been holding the 10 framer's back (at the holding yard) with all the other 8 and 9 frame dinks once again.:scratch:

What a shame. I heard form someone who says they got 120 for their dinks. Those look good enough to have placed a nice down payment on another bus or two.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Phil, I filmed that last week, I'm sure the trees are going by now, this thread promted me to post this on you-tube. I've had enough of the whinning.


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

Jim,
Yes i wonder to how much thought goes into that and if there are some possible simple changes that could go along way for both the bees and the almonds.

From a CA stand point sure almonds are good for the bees to build. but if those same bees were somewhere like say, south of arkansas and north of mexico i think they would be much better off. or maybe just south of canada where the dandelions grow

Yea and OLD timers need to know that times change. 30 years ago it was still a bee paradise. 

This is long term 

Kieth you only posted that video to look cool and wow that was cool


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Well Jim, Just because we are paranoid doesn't mean THEY really aren't out to get you! Lol

The first time I saw my hives douched with fungicide I asked an old keeper about it. He said its good for the boxes -keeps fungus from growing on them . Guess he was right. No fungus on MY boxes.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

benstung said:


> Kieth you only posted that video to look cool and wow that was cool


Benstung, I posted that so to paint the other side of the story, it's not all doom & gloom in the almonds. I also feel you were taking a cheap shot at the growers, the growers btw are paying alot of money for pollination, do you really think they are spraying just to be spraying after paying so much for the bees?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Hey Jimmy, this pic was taken last week, would you have benstung send that spray rig over here these things are getting out of hand. Heck that CCD is out of control again.
> http://youtu.be/PYbLbhZXizY


Nice!


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

i know its not all bad.

and as for how much they pay for the bees, 150 is not enough for me i am greedy, i want more.
every third bite is worth it


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Well we all want more money Ben. But the worst i ever see is a few hundred dead bees in front of the hives, likely from additives to the fungicide(direct knockdown). We see issues later on , but its hard to say if its from chemicals or varroa/viruses/drought.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Another good video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=CiIq8C3Q0Vo


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## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

Love the comments from the growers. I've known a lot of farmers in my life (and a lot of computer scientists) and they are not stupid. I don't think he is out there killing the bees he just paid big bucks for. He is probably using the best science he can find to find the optimal balance between healthy trees and healthy bees because he has a large, long term investment. What he needs always is better science to do this. What he doesn't need is chicken little in the laboratory. Big eco has its own credibility problems; they make big bucks in donations, the more alarm, the more donations, so in a way they are in the business of selling alarm. They said the feral hives were gone, not true, they said the polar bears are in trouble, not true, they said the climate system acts with positive feedback amplifying co2 forcing, not true. We are nowhere near a point where armies of people with little brushes do the pollinating.

BTW why can't growers lock the bees in for a day when they spray. Is that against their contract.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

The fact is we live in a world with agriculture surrounding us. Farmers and growers of all kinds produce the food we eat. I live across the road from a pecan orchard covering 1500 acres with irrigated pecan trees. I did not see any bee losses in the six hives in my yard last summer and the hives are strong this Spring. The orchard manager and I have a good relationship and he is responsible in the timing and manner of his spray applications. There is middle ground on these issues.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

BTW why can't growers lock the bees in for a day when they spray. Is that against their contract.[/QUOTE said:


> We have quite a few hives out there. We are nearly 2,000 miles away, the folks that handle them place 10's of thousands. They are scattered in small bunches throughout the orchards. Bees fly several miles......... Getting the picture?


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## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

I see. So if it costs $500 to send employees out one night to lock them in and another night to unlock, that tells me that the grower thinks the spraying will do less than $500 damage to his pollination effort.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

There are somewhere around a million and a half hives in almonds, as we speak. Thousands of different farms…each on its own spraying schedule. $500? I’m thinkin’ that you may have missed the magnitude of this endeavor.


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## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

Of course I wasn't thinking $500 would shut all the hives in almond country!  I was giving a hypothetical example of the grower running some random orchard. Actually, I think you knew that. The point is that its all a cost benefit tradeoff, which the watermelons running big eco never seem to get.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>There is middle ground on these issues.

Im glad to hear from the whole spectrum on these issues. Id say a lot of us sit on the middle ground. 

Our cropping program requires a fungicide field spray during the crop bloom, as most fungicides are used. Im talking tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars of crop protection. Completely measurable . Fungicides are not used without reason,


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Surfactant is what people are thinking of adding to sprays to help them 'stick' and 'spread' better. Typically it's a detergent to help break surface tension which is why it has toxicity to insects. Nice vid Keith.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

yes, the surfactant is added to each of our tank loads


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
Hey Jimmy, this pic was taken last week, would you have benstung send that spray rig over here these things are getting out of hand. Heck that CCD is out of control again.
http://youtu.be/PYbLbhZXizY

Looks like you shook some out or split,Keith.......that burnt up smoker looks like mine.....what you average for shaken bees?


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## Ishi (Sep 27, 2005)

Beekeepers;
Remember when you work the hives on that nice warm sunny day in the almonds you are also disrupting the bees from working the blooms and decreasing the growers crop.
Just the other side of the coin


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I agree . Thats why I limit it to just observing flight, changing feeders, and spot checking a few, just for that reason.All of the really disruptive management takes place right before and right after bloom.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Ishi said:


> Beekeepers;
> Remember when you work the hives on that nice warm sunny day in the almonds you are also disrupting the bees from working the blooms and decreasing the growers crop.
> Just the other side of the coin


Ok, If working them during bloom messes them up would you be willing to take at the video listed below and then tell me from the way the bees are foraging the almonds if you think these bees are messed up or not? 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiwJCaXStXI


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

The likelihood is that there are not enough bees to go around, as the almond guys were screaming for beekeepers, and heavy losses were widely reported. I'd bet he didn't get any bees is spraying bee attractant in hopes of drawing off bees from neighboring orchards or other native pollinators. Blue Diamond recommends communicating with your beekeeper regarding spraying times on their website, and recommends avoiding spraying altogether when bees are present is possible.

That said, if it is pesticide he's spraying, the photo frightens me.


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