# management software for commercial beekeeping operation (5,000 hives+)



## beegirl_nz (Nov 27, 2015)

Hi guys,

I've been reading here for a while now and have been specifically trying to research a potential software solution for managing a commercial beekeeping operation with ~7,000 hives.

We would like to be able to manage both operations / workflow and genetics / monitor performance.
An added benefit would be the ability to interact with the landowner / farmer / pollination contract partner.

One of the conditions would be that it is not completely web-based, since the operation covers a large area on the South Island of New Zealand, were cell phone / data coverage is not a possibility.

From what I have found so far, it looks like there are some solutions that cover at least a part of what we would want, and I have also noticed people connected with them floating around the forum, so I would love to get some feedback on how they believe their product would be able to be adapted to our needs.

I have found these:

*beetight* - seems to be very popular, but limited to 1,000 hives? (I would love to hear if you guys see potential to extend that number?)
How does the 'app free for Pro users' work? - Could we get six copies of it for all beekeeping teams?

*Hivetracks* - also seems to be popular, but as I understand, it runs completely browser-based? Is there an offline application in the making?

*MyApiary* - these guys are still working on it, but seem to be trying to integrate the performance evaluation side of things..

*Bee-Man* - seems to have a mobile application, not sure if it is an offline one?

*MyBeekeeper* - this also seems to be online full-time - same question?


Others that have been suggested, but seem to have been taken down / gone out of commission:
- Buzz
- BiData
- Beekeeper
- Bkeeping
- Apitrack
- MyBeeHives
- apimo.dk

Right now, all of our data capture is done with pen&paper, with data storage in excel sheets, which get ridiculously cumbersome once they have a lot of data in them.
Upgrading to something else would be great, especially if there is a possibility to potentially integrate some sort of trace-ability system (using something along the lines of RFIDs or QR-Codes).

Any information from either developers themselves or people that have some experience using any of these in larger-scale operations will be highly appreciated!

Thanks,

G


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## johnwratcliff (Feb 24, 2015)

I've talked with a friend about creating an app to track some of this data. I'm not a commercial guy. The first hurdle is how do you enter records with stick fingers? We talked briefly about nfc chips but most hives are right next to each other. I would love to build a platform that was flexible and used by all. Honestly would be great if you could edit all the fields to customize the field that matter to you. Would also be cool if there was a cloud aspect to it to track disease, average honey yields, and other fields.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

The software that beats duct tape, pencil and paper in the field, yet has to be created. 

Did try some of the above and it is not practical at all. Forget about using your mobile/smart phone. If it takes you a minute to put in all the data, that's too long. Working a hundred hives per day means hundred minutes just for documentation. Two hours. No thanks. 

Best would be a QR-code that can be printed on the hive. The next thing is some sort of "wearable". I would be fine with an Apple Watch 2. The App on that watch scans the QR-code and opens the hive's dashboard. Input by spoken words/SIRI. 

Just having some visions here...


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## johnwratcliff (Feb 24, 2015)

I've thought about the qr code but the sun bleaches the ink. But talk to text is a must. Also cost would be a huge issue but I think we could do something relatively cheap. Still kicking it around


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

RFID is what you want to identify each hive (and bring up the data input screen).

The difficult part (I think) will be setting up one touch data entry fields that are specific enough to give you valuable data, but not so specific as to tangle you up in data.

I don't think it would be difficult ar very expensive to do this (for a 7000 hive operation the overhead and development time is well dostributed. ...but like most things, the difficult part is defining exactly what it is you need for data.a


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## ppBee (Nov 27, 2015)

beegirl_nz said:


> Right now, all of our data capture is done with pen&paper, with data storage in excel sheets, which get ridiculously cumbersome once they have a lot of data in them.
> Upgrading to something else would be great, especially if there is a possibility to potentially integrate some sort of trace-ability system (using something along the lines of RFIDs or QR-Codes).
> 
> Any information from either developers themselves or people that have some experience using any of these in larger-scale operations will be highly appreciated!G


Hi,

I'm answering as a developer and [hopefully soon] future bee-keeper.

From what you described, I would personally use a CRM (Customer Relationship Management) system--specifically vTiger (the free open source version).

Regarding using QR codes and the like, how exactly would you be using this? If you can give me a realistic step-by-step scenario, I can tell you if vTiger would be suitable for this as well.

The only downside to this method is it requires some initial customization. Depending on your confidence in computers, you may be able to do this yourself.

Also, regarding using this system offline, this can also be done. However, do you want to use it only offline, only online, or a mix of both (online and offline)?

Since I have no experience in bee-keeping as of yet, it would also be helpful if you could tell me some of the types of records you would want in this system, or better yet a small sample of your Excel sheet, so I can confirm for certain whether or not this will work for you.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I'm in the works of developing and MS Access Platform, but kid #3 (born in March) kind of put the brakes on my spare time to work on it. The power comes from being able to query what ever information you need from multiple sources and of course the automation of data entry via RFID or barcode inputs. I should have some time now, just PM me on what you would like to see, I can build queen rearing calendars etc... right into it, so you could enter a graft date and everything would be calculated out for you automatically etc... Anyone else feel free to PM me as well if you're looking for something specific. At work, we use Panasonic FZ-G1 tablets which run windows 8, fairly rugged but pricey, toughbooks would be a good choice as well for a mobile solution. We run a docking station which powers the 2d barcode scanner that is wireless plus a scale, but the tablet also has a scanner as well if but it's not as fast as using the real deal. For certain traits inputs, we use a numerical system, so all inputs can be coded, just scan the plot stake or say hive number in this case to set the record, then you could scan in input values easily or manually punch stuff in, with a docking station, you can plug a real keyboard in to help or use the touch screen. We also use small portable printers, which would allow easy labelling onto pre-affixed tags or perhaps even the hive body etc.... Labels are tear proof, UV resistant, and weather proof, thermal transfer.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Good luck with that. It is hard to beat the ROI of a lumber crayon. They even come in the correct color for the year.

Crazy Roland


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I deal with numbers in the thousands and I think in terms of bee yards more than individual hives. I couldn't imagine taking the time to track individual hives except to mark potential breeders. We used to use markers for that but this summer started using various colored thumb tacks.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Something I have been considering is setting up a "cloud" based system of recording which yards were visited, the date, what was done, current numbers and general impressions (information that is currently carried back to the honey house and entered on a large master chart). It's not unusual for us to have several trucks out in different areas. Occasionally there is confusion that leads to overlap or omission of a yard that may mean an unnecessary trip the next day. If everyone could be trained to enter the data onto the cloud at the completion of each yard it would save the inevitable confusion about why a yard may or may not have been put on their list that morning.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Obviously it's only as good as the data you input, but think of waking up to a hive, scan the id-tag and have all the information available pop up immediately, wouldn't even need to open it. Is it more time than it's worth, perhaps, but some people just love data for whatever reason. Personally I'm more in it for the breeding aspect of tracking queens etc... but it could also act as the digital tack, just think of all that money you would save on crayons and tacks.... (yes, that's a joke...) Just think, you could scan it in, a picture of the queen pops up, a color coded dot would be associated with her year next to the picture, the whole requeening record for the hive, yield data, and treatment history pops up, you could toggle option buttons for being queenright, bad temperment, needs boxes added etc... If done well, you could even pre-print task lists before going to a yard based on data collected, but to your point, a lumber crayon works well too, just isn't as cool to some people who like the tinkering with the gizmos just as much as popping lids off hives.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What does Richard Adee use? Or Andy Card? What do those with 5,000 plus hives use? Anybody know?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

JRG13 said:


> Obviously it's only as good as the data you input, but think of waking up to a hive, scan the id-tag and have all the information available pop up immediately, wouldn't even need to open it. Is it more time than it's worth, perhaps, but some people just love data for whatever reason. Personally I'm more in it for the breeding aspect of tracking queens etc... but it could also act as the digital tack, just think of all that money you would save on crayons and tacks.... (yes, that's a joke...) Just think, you could scan it in, a picture of the queen pops up, a color coded dot would be associated with her year next to the picture, the whole requeening record for the hive, yield data, and treatment history pops up, you could toggle option buttons for being queenright, bad temperment, needs boxes added etc... If done well, you could even pre-print task lists before going to a yard based on data collected, but to your point, a lumber crayon works well too, just isn't as cool to some people who like the tinkering with the gizmos just as much as popping lids off hives.


Actually I have thought about exactly what you suggest. I think there are a lot of great applications for such technology when doing data intensive breeding and research but the problem is that when you are talking the 5,000 production hive scale this thread addresses it just isn't realistic. Do the math, if you devote even 10 minutes annually per hive to data input and analysis it comes out to over 800 man hours (better part of half a year in 9 to 5 terms). In short, it amounts to a lot of time invested and I'm not sure what it really gains you. 
Understand, at least in our case, we requeen annually anyway, about the only information I would really like is the breeder queen but then that is already easily done with color coded grafting cups. But from a potential breeder standpoint it's really pretty simple from my perspective. If you like it, mark it with a tack. At the end of the season segregate those hives and spend some time analyzing them to determine breeders.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> Something I have been considering is setting up a "cloud" based system of recording which yards were visited, the date, what was done, current numbers and general impressions (information that is currently carried back to the honey house and entered on a large master chart). It's not unusual for us to have several trucks out in different areas. Occasionally there is confusion that leads to overlap or omission of a yard that may mean an unnecessary trip the next day. If everyone could be trained to enter the data onto the cloud at the completion of each yard it would save the inevitable confusion about why a yard may or may not have been put on their list that morning.


A standard contact management solution should work with very little adaptation.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

deknow said:


> A standard contact management solution should work with very little adaptation.


You are no doubt right Dean. The biggest challenge probanly isn't setting it up but rather training people to get in the habit of always doing it.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

And then there's the " big white board keepers" simple, everybody can view it in the morning before they leave, anybody can add needed info.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JRG13 said:


> Is it more time than it's worth, perhaps, but some people just love data for whatever reason.
> .


Well said, Jeff & congratulations.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JRG13,
How do you turn your data into practical operational savings? Our grain and livestock farms track production data and crosses it with other measured data, to give strategies to cut costs and increase performance. How do you do that with bees? I see beekeeping as a low input high return business as it stands. Just a thought


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Keith Jarrett said:


> And then there's the " big white board keepers" simple, everybody can view it in the morning before they leave, anybody can add needed info.


...and that's what we have used for years. The only problem is the process for getting the info transferred onto the board. Lists get lost or perhaps data simply didn't get recorded at the completion of the yard. So many times I have wanted to check something in the middle of the day and it's just not possible unless someone happens to be in the building. Lots of texts get bounced back and forth on occasion but it still gets down to someone's memory. Also some sort of alerts if a yard hasn't been visited for a given period of time would be nice. We have well over 100 yards, things get forgotten......


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> The only problem is the process for getting the info transferred onto the board. Lists get lost or perhaps data simply didn't get recorded at the completion of the yard. , things get forgotten......


Yes, the human element at play, that's why we try to keep it simple and we like the white boards because their "visual".


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

FWIW, John Miller talked about this in Ohio this last month. Data lost in the cloud, He passed out white sheets of paper with yard info on it as his preferred method.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> You are no doubt right Dean. The biggest challenge probanly isn't setting it up but rather training people to get in the habit of always doing it.


That's easy...labor gets paid for work that is done and documented.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

deknow said:


> That's easy...labor gets paid for work that is done and documented.


Deknow, how many employee (crew) do you run, it seems easy to talk about, but, is like pulling teeth to get done on a weekly basis. For me the visual (white board) seems to always work best with the hired help. I hope I can move up some day away from the white board.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

jim lyon said:


> ...and that's what we have used for years. The only problem is the process for getting the info transferred onto the board. Lists get lost or perhaps data simply didn't get recorded at the completion of the yard. So many times I have wanted to check something in the middle of the day and it's just not possible unless someone happens to be in the building. Lots of texts get bounced back and forth on occasion but it still gets down to someone's memory. Also some sort of alerts if a yard hasn't been visited for a given period of time would be nice. We have well over 100 yards, things get forgotten......


I'll bet there are solutions to this, like possibly Google Docs, but one still has to actually enter data during the day to make it useful. A web based application would seem to fit. Buy everyone a new iPad Jim!!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> That's easy...labor gets paid for work that is done and documented.


When I had to account for every minute, every quarter hour actually, of every day I worked as an Apiary Inspector it was not unusual for me to get a note saying I was taking too many Office Hours. Ask me to document my activities and then reprimand me for doing so? Hmmm, something ain't right.


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## Blacks7 (Nov 28, 2015)

There is also an good Software for German Users: BeeManager. 

U can use it with Desktop and Smartphone.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

JRG-13 - You are right, crayon costs spiked this year, I lost mine and had to replace it.

Phil and I have bantered back and forth on different solutions to this problem. Field data entry does not appear as difficult as field data retrieval. I believe a system for data entry could be developed inexpensively that would consume the same time as writing on the roof in crayon. The rub comes when you try to compete with the time it takes to read the roof, which can be done as you approach the hive. I can see that waiting to scan a RFID tag and then read a screen in broad daylight would be time consuming.

Crazy Roland


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Most of the toughbooks and rugged handhelds are easily viewable in daylight these days. I try to build my data input so I don't even have to look at the screen.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Blacks7 said:


> an good Software.


What is good about it? Just another piece of overly complicated and inpractical piece of software. Any other cms or even a database system could do the same. 

Internet/web connection in the field? Good joke. Ok to check e-mails, but not when comnecting to a database and sending data back and forth. 

Smartphone and handheld is out. You need to carry your smoker and hive tool and some other stuff already. You simply don't carry another piece of equipment with you if you can avoid it.

Google glass or another wearable maybe. But I wonder how that wears when working. 

And what is the key benefit? For me it is tracking down queens for breeding. In relation to time costs and effort, it seems that there is nothing really practical out there. You'd need a headup-display. Free hands.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Barry said:


> I'll bet there are solutions to this, like possibly Google Docs, but one still has to actually enter data during the day to make it useful. A web based application would seem to fit. Buy everyone a new iPad Jim!!!


Well an Android tablet can be bought for under $100 and I had someone else suggest google docs as well, probably should explore that. Data plans would probably be overkill as info could be transferred anywhere you have wifi. Need to be tech savvy enough to set up a real dumbed down user friendly system though. 
On the other hand, the old poster boards have served us well for the most part. Maybe I just need to snap a pic of it before leaving the building each morning.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

The problem with snapping pics is that if you forgot to visit a yard for 6 months, the only way you would know it is if you thought it might be the case, then looked through 150+photos.

Maybe it's as simple as replacong the single white board with a simple c9ntact management or calendar application and project it on the screen.

Someone would sit at a keyboard instead of writing with a dry erase pen, but you would have searchable data.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

This all seems like info over load to me, how much do we really need to follow here in each yard ? Maybe it's me, but I just scribble down on a white board what I need or my general notes. We pretty much do things in patterns from yard to yard so not a lot to add. But then again maybe I'm missing something here. Jim did say, "dumb it down some" heck I'm still answering a flip phone.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I think jim was looking for something that would at least help him notice that a yard has been forgotten about. That doesn't seem like information/data overload to me.

The key is to eliminate the task of transcribing had written notes to the database....if you replace the handwritten notes with the database you are in better shape. It is like printing checks from the computer...you end up with a complete record of checks and who they are made out to rather than a partially polluted checkbook register amd a pile of canceled checks.


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## yurash (Mar 24, 2015)

At least one beekeeping company is already using 2d barcode tracking system - http://www.steensnewzealand.com/hive_tracker.html Well, I have been also trying to implement similar system in my apiary. There has been some success already, but need to try it out for second year to have adequate results. I have 1000+ colonies.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I've been contributing to this from my phone, now I'm actually at a keyboard.

I'd suggest a system like this...(and I certainly don't understand everyone's workflow) with minimal data collection.

1. The schedule fro the day is either done on the whiteboard...I'm thinking of Jim's operation where he has 100 yards, and it sounds like the whole crew gathers in the morning to plan out the day.

2. Before the daily schedule is made, entries are made for the previous day's work (each yard visited, what work was done (feed, requeen, check, super, treat, harvest, etc) and maybe some prediction from the crew (when the yard should be checked again and for what....might need more supers in 2 weeks, might need feeding in a week, signs of disease, etc)). Every item on the schedule for the day before must be accounted for in some way (done/not done/not sure) before proceding to today's schedule. With a well thought out system, you would just pick the items off a menu or a list....perhaps you provide coffee and doughnuts and give everyone (or every crew leader) 15 minutes to get their data entered.

3. Treat each yard like a customer in the contact management applicaiton. Setup alerts for scheduled things that didn't happen, yards that haven't been checked in 30 days, notes of action that needs taking that hasn't been followed up on (scheduled), alerts for your highest producing yards, your lowest producing yards, your yards where disease is more often noted, etc.

I imagine that your queen rearing calandar stuff is well in hand, and it would be cumborsome to integrate it into such a system....it would make more sense if there were a number of people in your crew responsible for different steps in rearing queens, but my guess is that you (or someone) masterminds that whole process and has the scheduling down.

The key is that sales people need this same exact tool, so it exists. If you pretend your yards are your customers that you need to keep happy, a contact management system is the heart of keeping track of the rough details and making sure you don't miss anything. ...that's my story and I'm sticking to it 

deknow


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

yurash said:


> At least one beekeeping company is already using 2d barcode tracking system - http://www.steensnewzealand.com/hive_tracker.html Well, I have been also trying to implement similar system in my apiary. There has been some success already, but need to try it out for second year to have adequate results. I have 1000+ colonies.


Those are Code 39 barcodes, not 2d, but the concept is the same, and I'm just nit-picking. As far as task list go, I built a database for a Comcast contractor, it assigned equipment to technicians, the same could be done for tasklist for yards or even on the employee level, and the database could even send you email reminders on things that need to be done, or were put in queue by the timeline calculator. At the end of the day, the task sheets could be scanned in for all completed jobs and the carryover's reassigned for the next day etc... On a side note, my main specialty in developing databases is with inventory management and reconciliation, so aside from the bees if you need help in those areas with equipment etc... that can be built in as well. Think of it this way, equipment would be in inventory as available or in-use etc.... as it's deployed or collected, you just scan it in and it's automatically updated along with total counts for that category that are available or in use. You could do it on the box level as well, each box as it's built and painted and ready to be put in use, gets a unique barcode. Say you send a crew to add boxes to 1000 hives, as they take the boxes, they scan them in, which sets them into checkout for the duration of the crew having them. As they place them onto hives, they scan the hive identifier, then the box they're adding, which pairs them and automatically deducts the frame count from inventory as well. Now you know exactly where that box is. If it's collected, it's scanned in as such, or is not used and returned to the shop, it's scanned in and ready set back to available. Same thing when pulling supers, you scan them in at collection time, then at extraction as they're going through the line, then when frames are returned, you scan them in and set them to available and you know exactly how many boxes were extracted each day, where they're at in the system, and their location. Say, you find AFB in a hive, you could now pull up a complete box history and track boxes down that were associated with that hive and where they're currently sitting. You could even go down to the frame level, but that's probably getting way too much into the details... Also, everything would be time stamped so you know when that box was built and you could even track who built them.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I think you have captured the essence of my thinking Dean. Perhaps with a feature that would allow you to enter a recommended revisit window so an alert would warn you if a location was past due for a visit.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

jim lyon said:


> I think you have captured the essence of my thinking Dean. Perhaps with a feature that would allow you to enter a recommended revisit window so an alert would warn you if a location was past due for a visit.


I addressed that in my post, you can set Access to link with Outlook or email accounts and generate emails based on time triggers.


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## yurash (Mar 24, 2015)

@JRG13 You are right, those are 39 barcodes. We all know that there is possibility to gather different type of data. But for large scale beekeeper there is a point where you are not keeping bees any more, instead you are collecting data. Beekeeper should only gather needed info as fast as possible, wasting only secs to enter data for each yard or colony. I fully understand why most of us like paper and pen, but often paper gets lost and info will be not shared with others (owners or another team leaders). So only solution would be digitalized info gathering system. But then everything gets difficult, all existing cloud based applications are not user friendly, well they are hobby friendly, but not commercial beekeeper friendly. I am working on MS Access based solution for myself, I enter all the data with handheld comp. Most of the time it takes only 30 sec. to make entry about the yard, because most entries are yard based(all colonies are getting treated or supered or splitted). If there is no need to select breeders, then there is no need to collect colony based info, except notes (e.g. pallet is old, swarmed, change colony roof). There is no need to know where is which queen and which line. Especially when you requeen annually. When you/I would like to select breeders then it gets more difficult. It takes more time. I have been make some compromises, which data is essential and which is not. So that my data collection process is as fast as possible. Some yard are with better production, some yard are with lowerproduction. I am looking for those colonies which are standing out in poor or average location, it is easier to point them out. But all in all, beekeepers should collect data, is it paper or handheld or smartphone is up to him.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

yurash said:


> @JRG13 You are right, those are 39 barcodes. We all know that there is possibility to gather different type of data. But for large scale beekeeper there is a point where you are not keeping bees any more, instead you are collecting data. Beekeeper should only gather needed info as fast as possible, wasting only secs to enter data for each yard or colony. I fully understand why most of us like paper and pen, but often paper gets lost and info will be not shared with others (owners or another team leaders). So only solution would be digitalized info gathering system. But then everything gets difficult, all existing cloud based applications are not user friendly, well they are hobby friendly, but not commercial beekeeper friendly. I am working on MS Access based solution for myself, I enter all the data with handheld comp. Most of the time it takes only 30 sec. to make entry about the yard, because most entries are yard based(all colonies are getting treated or supered or splitted). If there is no need to select breeders, then there is no need to collect colony based info, except notes (e.g. pallet is old, swarmed, change colony roof). There is no need to know where is which queen and which line. Especially when you requeen annually. When you/I would like to select breeders then it gets more difficult. It takes more time. I have been make some compromises, which data is essential and which is not. So that my data collection process is as fast as possible. Some yard are with better production, some yard are with lowerproduction. I am looking for those colonies which are standing out in poor or average location, it is easier to point them out. But all in all, beekeepers should collect data, is it paper or handheld or smartphone is up to him.


Yes! Yes! Yes! If I didnt write this then I have a clone.....in Estonia no less. Welcome to the forum yurash.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

here in ny we have a 3000 hive beekeeper that has all his yards written on a cleanex box that is carried in the truck. by the time an outfit has 50000-7000 hives it stands to reason he already has a system that works. cannot emphasize the value of simple.


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## beegirl_nz (Nov 27, 2015)

Hi guys,

Thank you for so much helpful feedback / for your thoughts.

I completely understand the beekeeps out there that want to stick with pen&paper or writing on the lids, as well as the concerns that once you collect data, it can quickly turn into a trap where you are getting more and more excited about your data and end up in a spiral of data collection above everything else.

I do, however, believe, that in a purely commercial situation, this is unlikely to happen.
- Spending time and, in extension, money, on something that is of no value is not something we'd be keen on.

I'll try and reply to some of the comments made.

@ *QR-Codes*
One major issue surrounding qr-codes is always going to be the ink fading... @JRG13, you mentioned labels that are uv-resistant and overall rugged, what are these?

@ *data requirements / data definition*
Defining which data you need and which falls into the category "nice to know, but essentially useless" is definitely key to any undertaking like this.
As is making sure that the data input is actually happening, not entirely sure how to deal with that yet.

@ *CRM / contact management*
That seems like a great possibility, especially for work flow management.

@ *Whiteboard*
We're using whiteboards right now, but they cover most of the wall in a big office as is and handling ~150 sites.. 
Definitely not the most effective system (the benefit of the "visual" component gets lost when you are handling a lot of data as well..)
I fail to see the benefit of a whiteboard over a big (touch)screen displaying what is in the database as well.
As @deknow said, instead of spending time writing information down onto the board, why not use the same time to put it into the system?

@ *time consumption*
In my mind, the ideal system would be automated to a high degree. 
Since beekeeps work in teams of three here and tend to drive a lot between sites (working pretty rugged landscape here), there is absolutely no reason not to bring up the site you are going to while you're en route and pre-select what you are going to do. 
Even if something unexpected happens on-site, you could potentially deal with the bulk of data-input once you're back in the truck or as you go (pre-select "supering" and then walk around the yard and scan them in at the end).

@ *breeder tracking*
It seems to me that a lot of you guys are talking about tracking potential breeders as they 'emerge' as outstanding queens. 
Do any of you track daughters to evaluate a queen(mother)'s actual breeding value?

Cheers,

G


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

beegirl_nz said:


> @ *breeder tracking*
> It seems to me that a lot of you guys are talking about tracking potential breeders as they 'emerge' as outstanding queens.
> Do any of you track daughters to evaluate a queen(mother)'s actual breeding value?
> 
> ...


I don't but I could see where some might want to. My logic is that the breeder (that may not last a second season) has already made her genetic contribution and reusing her a second season might result in some degree of inbreeding. But then thats fodder for another thread.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I would probably collect the rough data as I outlined above. For tracking potential breeders, I bet a colored thumb tack system (looks great, good, not so good, requuened/boosted)....the ones with the long row of green tacks are your potential breeders.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

beegirl_nz said:


> .
> 
> @ *Whiteboard*
> We're using whiteboards right now, but they cover most of the wall in a big office as is and handling ~150 sites..
> ...


How much data is needed here? I my outfit we have a couple of white boards, one for each region. They rarely get filled up, I think some would be better off spending more time with a hive tool in there hand rather than a lap top. On second thought..... I maybe wrong about that.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> I think some would be better off spending more time with a hive tool in there hand rather than a lap top. On second thought..... I maybe wrong about that.


... and quickly checking Facebook ( or beesource) in between data enteries 

Between yards, in slack time my guys use to play stretch with their hive tools, now it's I phones,


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Keith Jarrett said:


> How much data is needed here? I my outfit we have a couple of white boards, one for each region. They rarely get filled up, I think some would be better off spending more time with a hive tool in there hand rather than a lap top. On second thought..... I maybe wrong about that.


If it's working for you then it's not wrong. I'm guessing my bees are scattered more than yours through the summer. What we currently do has served us pretty well for a long time but pretty much every year we have some screw ups. We are using a white board with multiple colored sharpies that make it a bit easier to see what tasks have been done. No room for special notations but we have a second erasable white board for noting yards that might require some special attention sooner. It all works pretty well but also requires a lot of time each day spent staring at the chart to make sure nothing has been overlooked. The shortcomings are when your day doesn't go as anticipated and you want to change plans mid day then you are at the mercy of your memory. For me, I'm lucky if I can remember what I had for breakfast. 
If I made a switch to some kind of electronic system it would (as I noted earlier) have to be simple, fool proof and an improvement on our current system.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

I am not sure it will matter if your list is written on paper vs in a cloud if you change plans for the day and the data is simply not entered. I run lists on paper. A simple list of yards and a checkmark if that task is finished. I don't really care about how any individual hive does. And I think that is basically what this thread was about. I have been thinking about why one would want to know what each hive has done in a large bee outfit, and I honestly can't come up with a reason. We are all about getting every hive to perform at a high level that is very similar to the hive next to it and the one next to it.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

NZ Bee Girl,

Z-Ultimate 3000T is what we typically use for outdoor labels. You can't tear them by hand either, and we will run a staple through it as added measure at times if it's a particularly windy year but they usually hold up well w/o it. Honestly, I was just throwing out ideas, the only things I'm considering is tracking queen lineage since I'm more interested in the breeding side, treatment dates (so I know when I can pull strips out etc..), and a queen rearing calculator for when I start grafting and making splits.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

baby, I don't think it's tracking individual hives, but say you're supering a yard, and are gathering data on which hives to super next visit. As you're going through hives, you could mark them with something I guess, or you could scan in the barcode. The difference is, at the end of the day you need to go back and tally up the counts for simply marking down hives where as once you have the database, all the information is there. The next crew that comes back simply repeats, one person could go ahead of the crew and scan a box, you could make it a simple audible alarm for which boxes need a super, which don't. Heck, you could use a custom wave file that says, "Add super" if it needs one, and they simply crack the tops as they go indicating to the rest of the crew which hives need a super.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

You imply that one has to be skilled to tell if a beehive needs more space???? I am one to think that inside of a few seasons anyone can open a lid and decide whether to give it a box or two or more depending on the floral source. Why waste time driving around doing things twice? When we super I turn the lid against the long side of the box wax in for one box and wax out for two. If I had to open every hive scan it the type in 1 or 2 then close the hive giving it no more space until the next day or later depending on weather... no way. Sorry you lost me. Sounds to me that we are trying to complicate something that is simple.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Babybee? wrote:

I have been thinking about why one would want to know what each hive has done in a large bee outfit, and I honestly can't come up with a reason.


I know this is crazy, but I believe that with enough ACRURATE data, and careful statistical analysis, there will be patterns found that will more than pay for the added cost. I can not remember the name, or where it is applied, but good progress is being made in this area. Basically they are finding causes of problems where they where not seen before. It could be in epidemiology?????


Crazy Roland


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## Markt (Feb 8, 2012)

I think breeding might be an issue that needs to be focused on separately in order to make a really useful commercial beekeeping application. My thinking is that it just adds too much complexity to be practical for daily use. How many yards does the average person really breed from? I know I maybe graft from three or four. Just write the information down for those or store it separately.

If you boil it down to what you would need to run the rest of your operation what are you left with? All that I really would want is the ability to bring up Yard #37 and update it with the event 'grass cut' or 'supers added' on a certain date. The date would be added automatically and the actions could be added with a touch screen tick box in about three seconds once set up initially. You would then have the ability to search by task for which yards that task was done the longest ago in. GPS/Smartphone capability would be good as well so that I can send someone out who's never been to Yard #37 before but beyond that I really think things get too complex to use and that's why these apps fail.

Thoughts?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Baby, I wasn't implying anything, I was not sure if people checked first then came back and supered or just loaded up a truck full of supers and came to the yard, maybe having to truck half of them back. Also, if set up correctly, you don't have to type anything, the scan initiates the data entry or you just barcode the data to be entered, scan the box to set target, scan number of boxes it needs or whatever comments you need to make. I've been on the end of the data capture time issue, it's why I build my own custom forms and databases and try to make it as automated and idiot proof as possible. I'm not pushing this down anyone's throat either, I don't see why everyone is so defensive about it, I'm just responding to the interest some people have about data systems, if you don't want to use it, I could care less. Most people don't see the value until they actually use it, but I think the main issue is there isn't anything out that that fits what most commercial guys would use.

I was out in the field with Honey-4-All during almonds and the bee-informed guys were there, they did a lot of writing stuff down, I could've saved them a lot of time with their sampling and data pairing if set up properly without having to write a single thing down.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I came up with a potential solution about three years ago. I wrote it up here:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ractive-colony-inspection&p=998789#post998789


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## beegirl_nz (Nov 27, 2015)

Roland said:


> I know this is crazy, but I believe that with enough ACURRATE data, and careful statistical analysis, there will be patterns found that will more than pay for the added cost. I can not remember the name, or where it is applied, but good progress is being made in this area. Basically they are finding causes of problems where they where not seen before. It could be in epidemiology?????


Just my thought here.

This applies to both epidemiology and genetics.

Both can't be worked without accurate record keeping and can on the other hand yield high commercial returns once you have worked out what is going on with them..

As @Markt points out, both of these aspects are not something that the beekeeps in the field should be constantly confronted with, so different levels within the system (both in terms of management vs. field ops and for different types of sites) would be necessary to keep things simple in the field.

There are several systems out there for all kinds of farming operations, the key thing would be to get one to work for beekeeping as well.

@Astrobee
I saw that, but you note that your system requires constant cellphone reception, which is not an option in our situation


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

beegirl_nz said:


> @Astrobee
> I saw that, but you note that your system requires constant cellphone reception, which is not an option in our situation


Yeah, my earlier belief may have not been completely accurate. If your phone is synced prior to leaving coverage and sync upon returning to coverage, then I suspect that it will work perfectly well. I've never used it out of coverage, so I am speculating, but it should be easy enough to test.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Beegirl... For around 75 years, our beekeeper in the field has kept accurate notes on the events in the hive with minimal effort using a lumber crayon. I believe it would be possible to digitize the same information with little lost time. The results would have long term effects that would not be immediately noticed. It took over a decade to see the effects of selecting from ALL of the hives the queens to breed from, and then it took a few more decades for it to become obvious.

Crazy Roland


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