# Requeen twice a year



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

"And, like many of you, Dave Mendes has found it necessary to re-queen twice a year." Joe Traynor

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...ewsletter/beekeeper-newsletter-march-15-2011/

I'm curious to know how many here requeen twice a year out of necessity? I had no idea it was that bad.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

It isn't Barry. I don't know any commercial guys that do that. "Dave" probably needs to look for a new queen source. Talking with Lyle Johnson, the largest broker of bees in the US, he recommends fall re-queening on any hive with a queen over one year old. Most guys I know re-queen every other year as a norm.


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2004)

You have to understand Dave M's business. He makes ALL his income from pollination. First from almonds, later from blueberries and cranberries. Bees moved 3,000+ miles and then moved 3-6 times more within a 'farm'. Plus there are lots of other beekeepers/hives around that carry every kind of disease/resistance known to mankind. 

I am mildly surprised that Dave 'only' requeens 2X a year. I know another guy who 'brags' that every hive is requeened 10-18 times a year! (once for every pollination drop.)

The migratory commercial guys I know who raise splits in the south, come north for 1x-2x apple pollination, and then set for honey only requeen 1x a year. But that is an entirely different business than what Dave and 'other guy' are into.

Lloyd


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We requeen when the queen is failing, not time or calander dependant.

Crazy Roland


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## NorthernIllinoisPlumber (Aug 17, 2010)

I thought the bees are in charge if the queen is failing? Or, is it too late when they decide?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I can't imaging having to requeen twice a year...or even once a year. There are colonies in my operation that haven't been requeened in years and still maintain colonies at the top of the yard sheet numbers. Requeened themselves yes of course. By me, not if they remain productive.

I wonder if this need to requeen twice a year fortells troubles in New England. Dave and his field rep are trying to flood New England with cheap Florida nucs. In Vermont, we refused to give them any contact info from local clubs or state association. Bees coming here that are propped up by Tylan and a varroa treatment of the month spell trouble with a capital T. 

My opinion and I hope I'm wrong.


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## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

Honestly I dont understand why requeen even once a year much less twice.

To me it makes me feel that we are breeding or abusing the bees, breeding for failure. I will not requeen until I see some sort of failure happening. I will have tight swarm management to prevent losing a queen. I am going to leave a lot of natural forage in the hive to including stockpiling frames of honey and pollen like I did this past year for winter and early spring.

I dont know, if someone explain why to replace a queen annually can truly convience me, maybe, but it isnt in my plan.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ok here it is Christopher. As a migratory beekeeper who requeens annually here is the logic. We raise our own cells and we have our bees in an ideal environment for matings in the early spring. The cost of requeening is essentially your cost of raising a cell and the really great thing about it is that you not only have a new queen but you have broken the brood cycle and really set back varroa in the process. No type of hive that I have ever used can put on a honey crop like a well timed nuc with a new queen that is "on the grow". In addition late summer drone layers are rarely seen. Our methods aren't necessarily the blueprint for success for everyone. There are a number of quite successful operations that dont do things at all like us and not only are successful but don't have to live away from home for months at a time. And yes we have our problems like everyone but outside of bringing in some breeding stock haven't spent a dime on bee or queen purchases in years and have not only kept our numbers up but have even increased our numbers in recent years.


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## Matt Beekman (Dec 15, 2007)

I guess it all comes down to your definition of "requeening twice a year". What I have read in other literature is that he introduces two queen cells a year. Basically, two attemps at forced supercedure twice a year. Is he truly requeening twice a year? Probably not. Lyle is right to point out the need to fall requeen. IMHO, if you are at more than 10% winter mortality, you need to requeen more hives in the fall; amongst other things.


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## mnbeekeeper (Jun 30, 2010)

its all about managing the bees to do what you want when you want. 2 frames of brood and a cell in march = a double by the end of may so full of bees and brood ready to kick ass on a honey flow for the summer and by fall you will have big colony, young queen to take you to the next season. when splitting i never kill a good old queen. i just make 2 or 3 new colonies off of her and let her run her course in life. some things better left to nature.

just curious to those that requeen in the fall. are you raising your own cells and just sticking one in in hopes of the best. or are you finding old queen killing her and replacing with new mated queen or cell.


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## Radical Bee (Feb 25, 2009)

I don't necessarily recommend this for another climate area but to answer your question; i make the splits the same time i am in the hive to pull the honey super(s). Being lazy i try to take the second deep with all the bees and make sure i get a couple of brood frames w/o the queen, especially the youngest frame of eggs/brood. Let em raise their own queen and overwinter in singles, feed em 1-2 gallons of syrup and walk away, no mite treatment. Lost one by Dec, probably robbed out, 3 more by mid-Feb, none since. Feeding now and temps are 38-68 here and i have had to put a second deep on half a dozen, the other 20 have 5-7 frames covered, all are queenright. Treatment next week, expect all to be strong by early soybeans June 15. If i decide to feed more i will pull some brood frames in May and make splits with 7 frames of brood.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

jim how are you requeening every spring?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

ST we find her and usually kill her though we are thinking of caging the better ones and reusing them as needed in those that don't "catch". In the past we have rebuilt and re celled those that miss but haven't had consistent success with this.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't requeen twice a year. I don't requeen at all. Unless someone wants to call the splitting I do, to replace deadouts, requeening.

I have heard, and I believe it was Dave Miksa who said it, that a colony will supercede every so often. Meaning requeening naturally occurs during the year.

Every time colonies are moved, on a semi or otherwise, and especially long distances, I believe, queens are lost in the process. I have heard as much as 10% on average. So, perhaps what Dave Mendes is doing is adding queens cells, as mentioned before, in order to insure that his colonies have queens w/out having to check each and every one of them to see if they do. It's the most efficient way to do it, in his case. If that is what he is doing and why. 

Short of asking him, who knows? Anybody have his number? I bet I can get it thru another Dave. Dave Hackenberg. If he isn't too busy in CA moving bees out of almonds.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Talked to Dave M in the past, just got to call in the evenings. 

mike


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

This Topic is a lot more complicated than most of us can wrap our heads around and I am not really able to transfer all that Dave Hackenberg just told me. Very few of us can relate to what goes on in operations of the size which Dave Mendes does. Any of our problems pail in comparison. Iam talking about magnitudes of scale beyond what most of us could manage to manage.

Here are some snipets of comments from DH. "Twice a year? How about three times?", "Queens don't last.", "One beekeeper w/ 14,000 cols used 22,800 queens last year.", "Queens are lasting 6 months.", "Not the moving so much as it is everything else." Then he went into corn, and pesticides and more.

In Hacks operation, last year, the most cols they had on the ground at one time was 2,835. They used 5,700 queens.

When one talks to David Hackenberg you get a tutorial on the state of commercial beekeeping and commercial beekeepers in the United states today. There is so much going on it's a wonder we haven't seen deaths, what w/ the stress and pesticide exposures out there.

I can't help but admire what the Daves of beekeeping are handling. Far beyond what any of us can imagine. I'm looking forward to hearing what someone else hears from dave Mendes. If no one calls him, I will call Hack back and get his number.

Oned last quote from DH, on Dave Mendes. "He'll tell ya."


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

On a much smaller scale than eith DM or DH we see the same problems with queens....we have purchased queens and cells from several reputable sources, and graft a lot of our own... Queens just are not lasting like they used to. We requeen one per year, plus our splits and the swarms we catch get new queens. BTW we dont pollinate and only move our bees once per year to orange blossom and back....it used to be a lot easier.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

peacekeeperapiaries said:


> move our bees once per year to orange blossom and back....it used to be a lot easier.


Hack no longer goes into the groves. Bees die from going there. Cols coming out of oranges don't last. 

In a way, thhe reason for requeening twice or three times a year has alot to do w/ modern agriculture and the use of systemic pesticides.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Hack no longer goes into the groves. Bees die from going there. Cols coming out of oranges don't last.


I had heard he stopped working orange...I agree a lot of stuff is sprayed in the groves and that lends to colony health problems.. We opt to keep the bees in smaller groves and know when they and the groves around them are going to spray and with what...we were two weeks late getting the bees to one of the groves this year due to an early bloom and the groves playing "catchup"... I had to wait till the grove behind ours finished spraying...then I waited another week to be safe or my bees could have been dead...in our neck of the woods If I dont work orange...Im broke  but my new best friend is the "spray guy" who contracts with most of the groves in my area...we stay in close touch this time of year...its has paid off, our colonies are booming and honey is being put in the supers...sucks that I missed those two weeks though, thats a lot of honey. And BTW I agree, modern agriculture and pesticides have dealt most of the problems we face, and surely lend to the queen failure problems we all encounter.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> , the most cols they had on the ground at one time was 2,835. They used 5,700 queens."


Sounds like there are some other issues to address other than queens.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm not sure about what that is. Care to elaborate?


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## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

From reading what I have read I consider this topic to be going in many direction.

For commercial you raise your own queens to make splits and for just in case.

For hobbiest or sideliners its a different story however people are requeening once a year and some twice a year (twice a year why?).

I can understand for commercial purpose requeening. The bees get moved all around, maximum production is required of them, I can see queens and bees getting wore out.

However beeing a hobbies, going to sideliner and queen rearing, again I dont see a reason to requeen unless the queens show signs of failure. Then again if that starts to happen then there is a chance they will requeen themselves.


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

Self contaminated comb full of miticides often applied 3 or more times per year in FEEDLOT beekeeping operations can create high levels of contamination. 

There is a lot of published science about coumaphos and even fluvalinate and honeybee reproductive health. Sterile drones and superceded queens are the symptoms but its not like the combs glow in the dark either so there is no visible sign of trouble. 

Additional issues can arise from novel miticides that basically are under the radar and no bee researcher has a clue about how they affect honeybee reproductive health. Synergy where more then one chemical by itself is not a problem but when mixed in a hive combine to form a new compound that could damage reproductive health also. 

But denial and blaming Bayer is a lot more fun then looking reality in the eye. 

I live in a sea of corn and beans, don't use any common or weird miticides, don't feed antibiotics preventatively, don't do any pollination and gee whiz don't have queens failing left and right either. Like Mike Palmer we requeen when we find a loser brood pattern or other signs of queen failure.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Sounds like there are some other issues to address other than queens.


Amen Keith.


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## MTINAZ (Jan 15, 2010)

I listened to Dave M in Texas. I did not get the impression that he "has" to re queen. It is just that all his $ is from pollination and contracts are based on strength of the hive. For his business he finds it profitable to re queen twice a year and have younger queens heading up strong colonies.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Dave M also has a managment schedule for rotating combs out of his bees. You will not find many combs that are over four years of age in his bees. He replaces about 3 a year in every colony he owns and replaces them with foundation. His thinking, less problems with disease and pesticide build up thus stronger bees to pollenate with. Hey, I have pollinated almonds on the same ranch south of Bakersfield that he had bees also on a few years ago. His bees were stronger and looked better than mine. He is a very good beekeeper. TK


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

you bet ted I have seen his bees a few times and for him to get as many bees as he runs to look so good consistently it takes some skill.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bud Dingler said:


> Self contaminated comb full of miticides often applied 3 or more times per year in FEEDLOT beekeeping operations can create high levels of contamination.
> 
> Like Mike Palmer we requeen when we find a loser brood pattern or other signs of queen failure.


W/ 14,000 cols the "FEEDLOT beekeeping" charge is valid, I imagine. Lots of hives, not alot of locations to put them.

But, do you know how Dave Mendes manages his colonies? Or are assumptions being made? I don't know Dave Mendes, but I do know Dave Hackenberg. If my questions seem to be in DM's defence, it's because he isn't here to defend himself and reallly explain his practices.

As to your final sentence, according to DH, DM does the same as you and Mike. He requeens "when [he] find a loser brood pattern or other signs of queen failure.".

Another thing that Hack said yesterday. Paraphrased. If you are going to pollinate almonds you have to start out w/ twice as many colonies as you need to put into the groves. I have seen that in the operation of a closer friend of mine who sends hives to almonds.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

ChristopherA said:


> From reading what I have read I consider this topic to be going in many direction.


Thrreads, like conversations often go that way. But the basic subject of the Original Post is still going on. Barry asked a question about someone who manages 14,000 colonies or more and why the reported twice a year requeening. We're still conversing about that.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

As far as I know, putting in lots of fresh queens is still good beekeeping.


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## Tim Stewart (Jul 19, 2009)

I haven't talked to Dave M or Dave H but I have talked every once in a while to Bob Harvey or his son. In their a little under 4000 hive operation, they use 88 queens a week. He runs singles with excluder and three mediums almost year round. When a dud queen shows up it gets stacked on the hive behind it and that is split a week later. They don't expect many virgins to mate on 6 way pallets. 

Tim


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