# Ethical obligation of someone teaching an intro class?



## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

Going in to my first winter with bees, I am just beginning to grasp the seasonal challenges bees face as well as the impact mites have on hive survival. I took an intro class locally last winter which was taught by someone who owns a supply store in town. The class was always intended to be a general overview of basic terms and general knowledge, and being 3 hours long one could only expect basic info.

What has come to annoy me is the complete disregard the instructor had for spending even 5 minutes discussing mite control. The extent of the topic of varroa was that he uses, sbb hives and does not treat for mites at all. At the time I had not discover beesource so I was solely dependent on knowledge gained from this class. I remember standing in line on the morning when we were informed to pick up our packages and hearing story after story from people about how their 1, 2, 3,4 colonies all died the last fall/early winter. I am talking 20 plus people who all had 0 survival rates but we're back to give it another try at $100 a pop.

I am not interested in debating treatment vs. Treatment free...what I don't think is ethical is selling people bees and not preparing them for what is the cause for the vast majority of dead colonies every year. I feel that if you are going to just teach classes, you can cover any topic and push any opinion you want, but when you get in to selling the supplies too there is a responsibility to inform people and help protect their financial investment and at least give them the information on what will likely kill their hives at the end of the year.

Am I wrong?


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If I were teaching a short class like that I would would say, "we are not going to have time to thrash out the subject of treatment vs treatment free beekeeping: I expect you as individuals to do your own research into what methods suit your ideology and bankroll."


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I started teaching over a decade ago. One of my pet peeves was and is the one day 'crash course' approach many organizations and individuals teach. So...when I put mine together I set it up for 7 sessions...beginning in December and ending in August. 2 three hour lectures (the first one for this series is this afternoon), 1 equipment workshop, 2 springtime beeyard hands on workshops, 1 honey harvest workshop and an end of season beeyard winter prep (including mite control). And even with that....it isn't enough and I tell the students just that. I can show them how to get through one season....but there's much more to learn.
So....yeah.....I agree.....you aren't wrong.


----------



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

It's impossible to cover everything in a 3 hour course. It's just the reality of it. Like you stated it was "intednded to be a general overview". The varroa topic can be a 1 hour course by itself. With the advent of the internet, there is almost everything you need to know there with a simple click of a mouse. FAR more information that you can gather in a 3 hour course. In short, there is a lot of research that falls upon your shoulders. 
Myself, I teach one on one classes at the clients bee yard. This way we can go over his/hers specific concerns with thier hive inspections. No two hives are ever the same.


----------



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

The credentials of the instructor should always hold merit. Just because someone is offering a course does not mean they are an educator. The motivation for holding the course should also be considered. as a general rule when a course is held to drum up customers it is low on content. 

As Mr. beeman said there is a lot of information available on the internet. But there again one must be careful how they interpret this information. As any self proclaimed bee expert can post anything on the met. I fine it amazing the number individuals ask the most basic questions about bee keeping. Some requiring so little logic that an average 9 year old could deduce the information from observation. Then a scant few months later they are dispensing their misinterpreted knowledge to others on the internet as though it were the gospel. they will even argue their point and verify it with more misinformation. 
It is no wonder beginning Beekeepers find themselves at a loss as to what approach to beekeeping best suits their situation. 
I cannot speak for every state but I have been to a great many and know that a preponderance of them have bee keeping associations. Most are comprised of dedicated beekeepers. Knowledgeable, dedicated, experienced individuals that have a passion in see bees flourish. State associations hold seminars and instructional forums hosted by educators using information derived from research and experience, rather than theory and suspicions.


----------



## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Until package bees and nucs start coming with manuals and instructions, it is hard to criticize what 3rd parties claim.

If the business model is to sell bees that die so he can sell more bees next year (amd this isnt disclosed), then I would say there is a ethical problem.

On the other hand, how can you criticize someone who is teaching a class for teaching what they actually do?

The last advice I would want new beekeepers to get is how to treat from someone that doesnt use treatments....or how not to treat from some e who does.

No one should be criticized for being honest about what they do.


----------



## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

When I started with bees after many years I had no idea of mites or beetles or a lot of other stuff. I bought 3 10 frame hives from a guy about 100 miles away. He said some thing about mites an beetles, the inspector was there, all good, so I didn't think mush about it. For the first year I did it old school, lost one of the hives, built up to 7 hives to over winter, all good, very nice bees. After my second summer at the state fair I learned about BeeSource, YouTube, Googal, ( I did say I was old school). Every time I sale a nuc now I give people a list of things an people that I have learned things from, @ 20 different places. They can call, text or email me for help at any time.I may tell them where to find the answer from people that know more than me, they need to know where to look. People don't need to do it on their own or pay for every little thing they don't know................Just My opinion........


----------



## Orion7 (Jun 3, 2015)

To me it's like teaching a class on how to ride a bike. You can teach it to death, but eventually you got to go get on the bike, and you are most likely going to fall a few times.


----------



## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Ethics? What are ethics? Hard to say what the teachers motivation was or is. It would be a poor business model to follow if the goal was to get your bees to die and have to be replaced each year. Likewise, I would be totally surpised that mites were not mentioned at all - for sure, disease control should have been part of the class- even if it was just a comment such as you will need to research it on your own time. If it wasn't, that doesn't mean the teacher was unethical.

I have noticed from reading this site, and talking to people interested in bees in general, that there are a lot of people that want to keep bees but don't want to take the time to learn how to do it - never took a class, never read -or won't read a magazine or book, or looked at youtube videos to educate themselves, and then they are shocked that their bees died. Don't know about mites or nosema? Really? You can't pick up a beekeeping magazine that doesn't have something written about mites.


----------



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

It can be hard to practice what you preach, especially when various folks preach if you're treating to treat every hive in a yard.

In my beginner classes, we talk about IPM. We talk alcohol washes and sugar rolls.  We talk Varroa life cycle. And then we have the state apiarist teach the pests and diseases class. If I've done my job, the students can keep up with the state inspector.

We also talk about reading pesticide labels, residues, organic honey, and the treating of bees as livestock. I try to present that the beekeeper needs to see that something happens to keep Varroa from taking down a hive. As an instructor, I don't care much what the students do, as long as they do something. I do tell them what I'm doing (MAQS this year, probably Oxalic (just registered in Maine a few weeks ago) next year. I also describe the stock I've tried over the years.

From an ethics point of view I've bent over backwards not to profit from the students taking the class.


----------



## BeeBop (Apr 23, 2015)

Norcalkyle said:


> What has come to annoy me is the complete disregard the instructor had for spending even 5 minutes discussing mite control. The extent of the topic of varroa was that he uses, sbb hives and does not treat for mites at all.


Yes, I took the same class and bought my bees from the same "instructor" as you. When asked about mites his response was that treating for them just produces weaker bees and stronger mites. 
My bees were loaded with mites and I have no doubt that without treatment they would be dead by now. That would be a loss for me, but a gain for someone who would like to sell me more bees.



orthoman said:


> Hard to say what the teachers motivation was or is. It would be a poor business model to follow if the goal was to get your bees to die and have to be replaced each year.


The teacher sells bees. If the bees live he might only get to sell them to a customer once. If they die he can probably sell bees to them again a couple of years in a row before the customer gives up.

I have a neighbor that bought 2 packages of bees every year 3 years in a row before he gave up. The seller discouraged treating for mites. Sales people will be sales people...


----------



## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

BeeBop said:


> Yes, I took the same class and bought my bees from the same "instructor" as you. When asked about mites his response was that treating for them just produces weaker bees and stronger mites.
> My bees were loaded with mites and I have no doubt that without treatment they would be dead by now. That would be a loss for me, but a gain for someone who would like to sell me more bees.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I basically got the impression that instructor was discouraging treatment not just bypassing its discussion. As you know the town that the sales office is located in is about as crunchy and save the world as they come, so I am assuming that the majority of customers would have gone tf anyway... but if it wasn't for this site I would have been blindsided by mites and most likely lost $300 worth of bees... heck, one of my packages was failing in June, and only saw a rebound after oav rounds suggested by people here.

I just think it is unprofessional to set people up for certain failure by telling them that varroa is nothing to worry about and sbb are all you need to do to control them.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sounds like just another self proclaimed bee expert with little understanding of bees and beekeeping coupled with limited experience. a toxic combination for a "instructor".
you may be giving credit where none is due by using the term "unprofessional" when describing this instructor. maybe best to call them beekeeping destructors, for that is what they are doing.
glad this turned out positive for you though. you weathered a misinformation storm.
ignorance abounds in beekeeping right now, both with regards to bee husbandry and the business of bees.


----------



## BeeBop (Apr 23, 2015)

Norcalkyle said:


> I just think it is unprofessional to set people up for certain failure by telling them that varroa is nothing to worry about and sbb are all you need to do to control them.


Heh, yeah, that was the extent of the discussion about mites... "use a SBB and the mites fall through and can't get back up. Problem solved".


----------



## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Is his stock, the same stock he is selling?


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

In my view the instructor was ethically in the wrong.

Because he would have seen that his customers were losing what appears to be 100% of their bees, annually.

So the argument that folks should do their own research is correct. But this guy claimed to be offering a course, and the people attending believed they were doing their due diligence, attending the course. Mites were discussed, it was implied people should ignore them.

I was once in a management position and had to do a course on people management and was taught that if my employees screwed up it was my fault. Because either I had hired the wrong person or I had not trained them right, it was one of those. IE, my fault. And I have lived by that since.

So if this guys customers / students lose all their bees every season, he has failed to teach them. It is not enough to say he was merely telling them what he does, because he is not there to tell them what he does, he is there to teach them, he claims, and on that score he has failed.

Of course he cannot cover everything in 3 hours but I think at least 2 things are basic. 1 is to say this is what I do regarding mites, but also there is a body of opinion that mites should be treated and expand on that a little so at least customers are aware, and 2 he should have referenced for them sources of further education such as for example a link to Beesource.

If the guy was missing info from his course causing everyone to fail that would be poor. But as he is also profiting from their failure it is unethical. He knows they are failing but is continuing to offer his course that he knows is not working. If he absolutely believes they should be TF then he should equip them for that. But he is not, he is continuously setting them up to fail and then selling them more bees destined to fail.

So he is out of order on several counts.


----------



## Dabbler (Aug 9, 2015)

caveat emptor. 
I believe I am responsible for all those little lives and it is up to me to be as prepared as possible. 
I will not get my bees until spring 2016 but have been reading books, forums, attending classes, etc. for the last 8 months. Beekeeping is filled with different "philosophies" for tending the bees. Each with their ardent advocates. No one should jump into beekeeping after just a single course. I may crash and burn next year but if I do it will be "on me" and not because of ONE person who did or didn't say something about one aspect of beekeeping. 

Not letting the instructor off the hook, but for me personal responsibility is the bottom line./


----------



## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

I agree with Dabbler 100%


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Dabbler said:


> caveat emptor.


This term is all too often misused to absolve the scoundrels from any responsibility.
If an apparently successful beekeeper says or even implies that he can show you what you need to know in three hours...then the onus is on him.
The guy making a buck misleading a group of newcomers is the skunk.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

It would be great if there existed a standard beginners course curriculum so that every club/instructor didn't need to reinvent the wheel.

But for those who disparage the crash course - if you effectively teach to this outline:

I - Keep them strong and queenright
II - Keep them fed
III - Control mites
IV - Make increase
V - Host a series of apiary sessions to demonstrate

The class work is an easy day and your beginners will do just fine. If they want to.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Thats a very interesting question for here.

We sell packages and advise to treat for mites.

but how would you rate MB who would advise small cell and no treatment? is that unethical??


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

lazybhoney said:


> Thats a very interesting question for here.
> 
> We sell packages and advise to treat for mites.
> 
> but how would you rate MB who would advise small cell and no treatment? is that unethical??


Excellent question. When I started out mites were mentioned only in passing in my 3 hours class. I know understand it's truly a 3rd rail of beekeeping. I ignored mites my first year, and really didn't take them too seriously until I lost 14 out of 15 hives in year 4-5 or so. But, I kept reading and learning and adjusting my techniques. I'm heading into my 10th year with 30+ hives and now fully understand how to handle the majority of issues I run across. Had the class I took hit me with the myriad of mite thoughts/controls/techniques I would have invariably had analysis paralysis. Toss in AFB, EFB, chalkbrood, nosema, SHB's and I'd have truly been concerned for my success. I believe many newer beekeepers who fail do not learn from their mistakes and keep repeating them blaming everyone but themselves (CCD, Neonics, GMO's, etc) for their PPB skills. They stop learning or reading not understanding beekeeping is an endeavor that requires skill and continuous learning. Those who fail to be introspective as well as engage in learning eventually get frustrated and burn out.

I considered keeping bees 4-5 years prior and opted not to as I believed it would be too much trouble. I had started reading about all the diseases, parasites, and problems that can be encountered and got cold feet.


----------



## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I teach a monthly class on backyard beekeeping at the garden center where I work. I also sell TBH nucs. When I go over the various topics, I will tell the newbees that they need to devise a plan to deal with the mites in their hives. I will also tell them what I do to control mites on my bees. After that, it's up to them to determine how they want to deal with them.

As to the original poster's question, No, I do not think it was "unethical" of the teacher to gloss over mite control. There are some strong opinions out there, and for a short class, you really can't get into all the specifics without totally confusing the audience.


----------



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I have treatment free bees on standard 5.2 Pierco and 5.3 Mann Lake, I also have 2 colonies on small cell. I sell nucs, but they are not sold as treatment free and I do a Hopguard treatment on them before they are ready for the buyer. I would never suggest to a beginning beekeeper that they go treatment free, that should be something they decide for themselves AFTER they have enough experience to know how to manage bees and how bees will react to their management, and after they have enough colonies to replace their losses.

Small cell has been proven by controlled studies not to affect the varroa populations in a colony, natural cell was proven to not affect varroa when the feral colony die-off occurred. To continue to "preach" the Lusby method of beekeeping, after having documented proof that what affects varroa is not the cell size, is in my mind equal to the old medicine wagon salesman selling a "cure all" that was probably just colored water with flavorings added.


----------



## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

D Coates said:


> I believe many newer beekeepers who fail do not learn from their mistakes and keep repeating them blaming everyone but themselves (CCD, Neonics, GMO's, etc) for their PPB skills.


Excellent answer.

To agree that the instructor was unethical would be to say he was, dishonest, deceitful, fraudulent, underhanded and corrupt - essentially, the primary purpose of the class was to lead these beginners down a path to failure. This of course conveniently absolves the students of responsibility for their failures. 

Just doesn't make sense: Chances are the profit margin is higher on new equipment (needed for spring splits) than it is on those $100 replacement bees.

That said, I've seen some poorly executed classes (in the beekeeping world and beyond) but never ascribed the inadequacy to malice and corruption.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

David LaFerney said:


> It would be great if there existed a standard beginners course curriculum so that every club/instructor didn't need to reinvent the wheel.
> 
> But for those who disparage the crash course - if you effectively teach to this outline:
> 
> ...


You could add VI - get good genetics, care about mite resistance.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

If 100% of bees are dying, then why are garbage bees being sold? That may be unethical as well.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Exactly my point. He has to either set them up for success with TF bees if that is all he will teach, or, set them up with bees that need treatment but tell them to treat them.

He isn't and is profiting by that.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

lharder said:


> If 100% of bees are dying, then why are garbage bees being sold? That may be unethical as well.


That statement is not even close to true. for a cpl of reasons. first bee numbers are on the increase. and the reality is all bees die, the question is can you continually propagate them into a success. They answer to that is a unequivocal yes. I started back with packages and went from 3 to over 300 in 6 years. All of those from Georgia packages. As a huge majority of the bees in the country started at one point from packages, its obvious there are many other factors in play.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Point taken Lazybhoney and congrats on your success. 

But I'll bet you treated them, right?

This guy is selling packages to nuubs, and telling them not to treat. 

Then, knowing what's going on, tells and sells them more of the same, till they are done wasting money and quit what should have been an enjoyable hobby.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Norcalkyle said:


> I am not interested in debating treatment vs. Treatment free...what I don't think is ethical is selling people bees and not preparing them for what is the cause for the vast majority of dead colonies every year. I feel that if you are going to just teach classes, you can cover any topic and push any opinion you want, but when you get in to selling the supplies too there is a responsibility to inform people and help protect their financial investment and at least give them the information on what will likely kill their hives at the end of the year.
> 
> Am I wrong?


Did you think yourself qualified to buy and drive a car after one classroom instruction on driving?

Buyer beware. If you aren't aware enough of all that you are buying, then you shouldn't buy what's being sold.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I did, as I always do, way more research than any normal sane person does when starting out doing something. Given that... I still started out with TBHs and the now seemingly ridiculous idea that I could be treatment free without really even knowing how to keep bees.

My dad and grandpa kept bees from about 1978 until sometime in the 90s when Varroa made it impossible for them to keep their colonies alive through the winter. I don't know all the details since my grandpa (the brains of the operation) passed away in 2008 and my dad was just the muscle for their 5-7 hives. It was bad enough that they threw in the towel... and that was before all over the readily available information that the internet offers. Given their experience... I should have known better. But the story was good enough that I bought into it.

Now I have "seen the light". We just had a bee club meeting where a couple of new beekeepers showed up. I was surprised that they knew about varroa and some of the treatment options. I suspect that they will be just fine in the long run if they decide to take the plunge. To answer the OP's question. Ethics is a strange beast, I can't say that I believe it is an ethical issue. I think it is moreso a question on if you want your fellow beekeeper to succeed. I'm not saying you cram mite treatments down their throat... but I think it is remiss to not mention mites, their standing as the largest killer of honey bees in the world, and their overall taxing effect on colonies that are not properly managed.

Would you consider putting up a fence to keep coyotes, foxes, and raccoons out of a chicken coop a treatment? Wouldn't it be fair to say that someone should probably mention those three animals if you took a beginners class about chickens? Even if it was only one day? 

The number of new beekeepers that I have talked to in the past two years of doing this that do not even know that varroa exist OR believe it does not really pose a threat is a little disconcerting. Whenever I talk to a new beekeeper I always make sure I mention varroa and unless they prompt more discussion all I say is something like... "You're going to have to deal with varroa in one way or another. You will lose bees to them otherwise and probably a lot of bees to them."


----------



## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

There are a bunch of people with livestock of all kinds that have no business having them. It takes time and research to learn how to properly care for bees or any other kind of livestock. It takes a lot more than a 3 hour introductory class to bee keeping to raise bees properly. Even if the instructor did not cover mite control that does not excuse the beekeepers of not knowing that some kind of control would be needed. If they had done any reading they would have known that mites are public enemy number 1. Unfortunately there is a bunch of mis-information out there to read too. Only by researching the subjects can the crap be weeded out. Unfortunately most knew beekeepers are too lazy to do the research.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

BeeBop said:


> Yes, I took the same class and bought my bees from the same "instructor" as you. When asked about mites his response was that treating for them just produces weaker bees and stronger mites.
> My bees were loaded with mites and I have no doubt that without treatment they would be dead by now. That would be a loss for me, but a gain for someone who would like to sell me more bees.
> 
> 
> ...




this is a prime example why I say excessive splits is a treatment and should be listed as such in the definitions here. This guy probably doesn't treat with any type of chemical and thinks his bees don't need it so that is what he is teaching people. The problem is since he never lets his colonies get big due to constant splitting for nuc / package sales the mite population never gets big enough to cause a problem for him. 

If you follow his model and sell bees and never let them grow into full sized production colonies, you too can keep bees " treatment free"


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Harley, I think you may be very close to the mark with that scenario. Perhaps a big component in many peoples operational success without treating and many probably dont even realize it. I am certainly not saying that that is what is behind every treatment free endeavor. Some beekeepers and researchers are going about it very objectively and no enabling factor as simple as that would escape their attention: Others?????? Hmmmmm..


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

yes OT, unfortunately when I came back to beekeeping (left from 88-2004) I fell in the TF mantra/cult. I have since been absolved, and now treat and feed. I have shed my foundation less comb for the plasitcell of enlightenment... and I am profitable.... I keep an empty TB hive just outside the kitchen door. To remind me not to fall off the path of enlightenment back into the abyss of historical do nothingness. Embrace the progress if you will.

no aspersions to the TF concept, its just out of my price range.


----------



## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

I suspect the term 'intro class' accurately describes the contents. It probably covered a brief description of bees, behaviours and needs. What a package is and how to handle it. What a beehive is and how to assembly it. Then how to install the package. And feed the bees.

And is certainly isn't unethical if the intro course is provided as a service to those who have purchased bees and equipment. As, if all goes well, a new beekeeper safely gets a new hive established at his location. That's what the supply guy was selling.

I think of it like a horse. It, a halter and a few accessories were purchased. The seller gives me a quick intro on how to safely lead it, and feed. Now it's tied to my fence.

If I think that's all that required to keep a horse, I'm naive. If the seller told me that's all and I believed him, them I'm gullible and naive.The seller may be a crook. But where does the responsibility for the horse rest? Who is to blame if the horse  dies while tied to the fence?


----------



## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

>but how would you rate MB who would advise small cell and no treatment? is that unethical?

RANT WARNING 

It would only be unethical if he misrepresented his experience and recommendations. I've talked with, but never met MB. But my path and his are very parallel concerning mites and beekeeping in general. And I don't see anything wrong there. He promotes a management style, that works when used intelligently.

Is recommending approved treatments unethical? Not any more than using a more natural approach. The methods themselves are morally and ethically neutral. Both require knowing what the bees need. Both have a cost, one method more on the front end, and the other more on the backend.

It's the use, application or representation that makes a recommendation of a method unethical.

To use any method ignorantly or blindly not knowing the bees needs, or all the consequences, both the good and bad is unethical.

To misapply or illegally dose or contaminate bees, hive products, or the environment is unethical.

To promote any method in ignorance or without actual experience is unethical. And to parrot the unethical is well, unethical! 

END OF RANT - LOL

Well almost, but not quite. I'm going off and start another thread for the rest of it.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

lharder said:


> If 100% of bees are dying, then why are garbage bees being sold? That may be unethical as well.


I don't know exactly what you mean by garbage bees, but I really suspect that the low quality of southern package bees is greatly exaggerated. I imagine you would have a hard time finding a producer who isn't trying to produce a good product. I bought some early queens from one last spring and they were actually quite good. It* is* an easy scapegoat though. 

No doubt if you buy bees that were produced in Florida to use in Canada they probably are not ideal - but that isn't the fault of the producer.

No offence meant if that is not what you are referring to - or even if it was for that matter.


----------



## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

BWrangler said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> I suspect the term 'intro class' accurately describes the contents.


All of what BWrangler says. Right on!


----------



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Granted the people taking the class signed up for a three hour class. I have a problem with the suggestion that a 3 hour class is reasonable preparation for keeping bees. If the instructor is not explicitly stating that the class is an introduction and not adequate for preparing folks to keep bees, I *wonder *about ethics. Particularly if the class is organized as a sales pitch.

I understand many clubs do one day / three hour classes. I've long been troubled that their duration makes the class inadequate.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Maybe people who are going to buy bees should take a certified course and have to show that they passed the class with better than a B.


----------



## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

They'll still find someone else to blame.


----------



## Jerry T Indiana (Apr 7, 2014)

First let me say I have not read every single reply in this post. I am a second year beekeeper, I did a lot of research, & I still felt like after that first winter I was extremely naive on things. I will admit that falls upon myself for not doing more research and or having a better understanding. With that said I do feel like the original poster of this thread. I have seem two local bee clubs organized in the short amount time I've been a beekeeper. And I see these new hobbyist beekeepers, which technically I am a hobbyist beekeeper, come in swallow hard put down the money for a hive all the goodies they think they need, and then by their package of bees. A lot of times not even considering the fact that those bees very well may not make it through the winter. I think there's a lot of people out there that wants to save the honey bees so they're going to become a hobbyist beekeeper the put down the money and never consider that they might have to rebuy bees the next year. I feel that all beginning classes clubs organisations whatever needs to point out very vividly that beekeeping is basically like having livestock. There's times when you need to feed them you need to take care of them maybe when you don't even want to. I believe they think it's like buying a dog , they feed at the water it it'll be around for several years. When I see people come to the club, they're totally clueless as to what they need, They have not researched anything on the internet, they're somewhat shocked at the cost buying a prebuilt hive. Then they say they've already ordered their package so they need to know what to do for the next spring and I can already tell that they are in for a rude awakening. At this point anytime I have someone talk to me about wanting to get into beekeeping, I give him a hard facts not trying to be discouraging ,I tell them im just being honest. Let's face it no one would go out and buy a herd of cattle, if they have zero experience, worse yet zero understanding. I think the help us save the bees is contributing to this, there's a lot of wannabe do gooders out there which is fine but they're spending hundreds of dollars and not understanding what they're getting into. So with that said I think any class even a two hour class the very first thing that I should point out, being a beekeeper is not about buying a package of bees putting them in a hive and checking on them every couple of months. They also need to point out that there's a good chance there bees will not make it through the winter and they will have to rebuy the following year. Then again if the classes put on by somebody who is a retailer, then that would cause them to lose business and that's a whole other story.


----------



## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Maybe people who are going to buy bees should take a certified course and have to show that they passed the class with better than a B.


This would kill the package sales. I'm surprised at how many people with years of bee-having consider themselves experts, but wouldn't get a B.


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Not immoral necessarily, just incompetent. These days, I wouldn't give a 30 minute speech on beekeeping to a Rotary Club without a fair amount of discussion of _varroa_ and how to use both treatment and treatment free approaches to beekeeping. If my bees died because I relied exclusively on one three hour presentation from a single presenter, I would want to learn how not to make that kind of mistake again. That's just me.


----------



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Maybe people who are going to buy bees should take a certified course and have to show that they passed the class with better than a B.


I for one appreciate Mark's tongue in cheek suggestion - It is good to remind ourselves that the students have ultimate responsibility for their actions. I always consider it a victory of sorts when a student says to me "maybe I won't get bees this spring. I don't think I'm going to have the time to invest in them this year. I'll see if someone needs some help this summer, and the following year, start hives of my own."


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How many of you have ever told someone, or been told, that they should not buy bees yet. That they need to know much more to be successful Wintering bees?

The way bees die these days is one reason I stopped selling nucs.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> How many of you have ever told someone........ that they should not buy bees yet. That they need to know much more to be successful Wintering bees?


Many times every season. And....I will decline to sell them bees. Otherwise...when those bees fail, they insist that Dan Harris sold them bad bees.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

David LaFerney said:


> I don't know exactly what you mean by garbage bees, but I really suspect that the low quality of southern package bees is greatly exaggerated. I imagine you would have a hard time finding a producer who isn't trying to produce a good product. I bought some early queens from one last spring and they were actually quite good. It* is* an easy scapegoat though.
> 
> No doubt if you buy bees that were produced in Florida to use in Canada they probably are not ideal - but that isn't the fault of the producer.
> 
> No offence meant if that is not what you are referring to - or even if it was for that matter.


If 100 percent of the bees die without treatment, then there isn't a shred of varroa resistance. I think that's wrong to provide bees from stock where active selection for varroa resistance isn't taking place.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

If bee stock was healthy, the problems for beginners should be swarming, not getting honey because of lack of space management, queen failure and overwintering problems due to moisture/lack of food. 

In my opinion, beginners should be taught the principal of backup, and making increase. They need to learn this the first year.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

texanbelchers said:


> This would kill the package sales. I'm surprised at how many people with years of bee-having consider themselves experts, but wouldn't get a B.


Not at all. It doesn't hurt package sales a bit if your bees survive. Most them want to add some, and a huge portion of package sales are for commercials. Don't make the assumption that package producers want you to fail, because its both rude and wrong. To a fault the package PRODUCERS want you to succeed. its the middle men that get it muddled.



As for Mite Resistance, there isn't much of a shred of it ANYWHERE, there are a few hobby guys claiming it, but commercials who are mite free are more rare than unicorns. some may manage thru manipulations, but real Resistance unfortunately is still a dream. So to blame bee producers for not creating what mother nature hasn't managed is a bit unfair.

But heer is the ethical KEY, you know this. You know you need to treat bees you buy or catch, or your loss rate will be high. Thats the ethical spot. not selling you bees that were supposed to be restiant.

The other key if you follow that thread is all these TF guys, if they solved the problem then isn't it unethical for them to keep it to themselves? shouldn't they be supplying the world?? reality is if you can sell a TF package of bees and back it up, you can get 300 a package easy. Where are those guys??? Even Larry Oconnors 350 nucs need to be watched for mites. Thats the ethical key. Mites need to be discussed.


----------



## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

lharder said:


> If bee stock was healthy, the problems for beginners should be swarming, not getting honey because of lack of space management, queen failure and overwintering problems due to moisture/lack of food.
> 
> In my opinion, beginners should be taught the principal of backup, and making increase. They need to learn this the first year.


Beginner complaints this year:
"I put the queen introduction cage on the landing board so they would all go inside - she died, I need a free replacement."
"I put the queen cage in and went on vacation, she didn't get out - she died, I need a free replacement."
"There is sticky stuff, dead bees and maggots all over my bottom board (leaky feeder / SHB larvae - multiple complaints)."
"I sprayed them all down with sugar water and there seems to be a big clump of dead sticky bees in the bottom now..."

In many instances, I've marveled at the speed and ingenuity with which bees were killed despite the lack of bad intentions.

The advantage in taking personal responsibility for the loss (and I'm not saying in every instance it was ENTIRELY the beekeepers fault) is that it prompts a change in management practices. If as a beekeeper, you base your management practice on a single free intro class and an annual package of bees, the outcome is fairly predictable.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

lharder said:


> If 100 percent of the bees die without treatment, then there isn't a shred of varroa resistance. I think that's wrong to provide bees from stock where active selection for varroa resistance isn't taking place.


How many treatment free bee packages are you selling this year, lharder?


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

lharder said:


> If bee stock was healthy, the problems for beginners should be swarming, not getting honey because of lack of space management, queen failure and overwintering problems due to moisture/lack of food.
> 
> In my opinion, beginners should be taught the principal of backup, and making increase. They need to learn this the first year.


Give an idiot in a sand box an anvil and enough time and they can break it. Nothing is idiot proof, no matter how "healthy" the stock is. The best you can hope for is idiot resistance. Do you sell bees? If not it's easy to demand varroa resistance. If so,.... well I doubt you're demanding much less claiming varroa resistance.


----------



## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

lazybhoney said:


> Not at all. It doesn't hurt package sales a bit if your bees survive. Most them want to add some, and a huge portion of package sales are for commercials. Don't make the assumption that package producers want you to fail, because its both rude and wrong.


I wasn't assuming that at all. Only stating that many people that would purchase the packages would not be able to pass.

I'm surprised that the package sales go to commercials. I figured they would be self sufficient, but that is apparently my lack of experience showing.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

no problem Tex The reason many go to commercials is 2 fold. There are several who let the bees die every winter and replace as its cheaper to buy bees than winter them, and if your looking to expand or replace your numbers you have 2 choices, buy packages or split. splitting can cause a loss of honey ( I said can) so for a lot of guys the math works out to buy or ship to themselves replacements from the south.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> How many treatment free bee packages are you selling this year, lharder?


None, I don't have bees I would feel comfortable selling as tf. Nor do I have a long enough track record to give solid stats re survival. 

However, it was relatively easy to find queens that have at least some resistance to varroa. Those producers are not tf, but varroa resistance is a big part of what they do. Very responsible. 

All those queens survived their first winter as nucs and did well their 2nd summer without treatment. In the fall it looks like 2 of the queens finally failed. This should be more the typical experience for new beekeepers. The original queen I got from Hawaii died her first winter as did her daughter (one daughter survived). Good thing I didn't depend on them. A hive that collapses its first year in a new yard is pathetic. 

I may sell bees at some point. They will be overwintered nucs and will be daughters of queens that make it through at least 2 winters tf. And I would tell them what my death rate is. But really, I just need to make it through this winter.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

ChuckReburn said:


> Beginner complaints this year:
> "I put the queen introduction cage on the landing board so they would all go inside - she died, I need a free replacement."
> "I put the queen cage in and went on vacation, she didn't get out - she died, I need a free replacement."
> "There is sticky stuff, dead bees and maggots all over my bottom board (leaky feeder / SHB larvae - multiple complaints)."
> ...


Hmm, the implication of this thread is that mites did all these hives in. I guess there are other factors


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

lharder said:


> A hive that collapses its first year in a new yard is pathetic.





lharder said:


> Hmm, the implication of this thread is that mites did all these hives in. I guess there are other factors


Which puts the above statements at odds.

OF COURSE there are other factors. Including many 'techniques' peddled by people that don't have to deal with the fallout when they are implemented. Just look around to see all of the ridiculous suggestions:
* Direct releasing queen for people who have likely never handled a bee, much less a queen.
* Spraying down the package with sugar syrup.
* Never hang a queen cage.
* Not shaking the package, but instead installing inverted in some sort of convoluted fashion so as not to hurt the bees' feelings or something.
* Closing up the hive for some period of time after package installation.

And probably hundreds of others. Many are "well intentioned" but fall short when the audience is considered. When I hear someone say to close up a hive I hear "close up the hive with screen so they can't fly, but make sure there is adequate ventilation". A new beekeeper hears "completely seal the hive for three days". One of the problems facing new beekeepers is indecisiveness. When confronted with what seems like only two options they are likely to split the difference. 
"Direct release sounds risky and I should never hang a queen cage. So I'll put my queen cage on the bottom board, it's going to be 30 degrees tonight, so I'll flip the package upside down and they'll cluster around the queen cage by nightfall and keep her warm."

"Treatment free sounds awesome, but I'm worried a little bit about mites based on what some other beekeepers have told me. So instead of using a harsh 'chemical', I will just sprinkle powdered sugar on my bees."

"I've heard that smoke is bad for bees, but I should probably do *something*. So I'll spray them with sugar water."

It's all pretty predictable outcomes, right? The bees won't cluster around the queen and she'll be dead by morning. Powdered sugar is pretty much the same as not doing anything at all, package Italian brood monsters breed so many mites that they collapse in the fall. And spraying bees with water is ALWAYS a good solution if you want to come on Beesource and post about having "aggressive bees" that you need to requeen.

This is similar to what they hear when varroa isn't mentioned or is just mentioned in passing... while no one should expect a three hour beekeeping class to encompass everything you need to know in year one, as someone stated in an early post... I'd don't see how any discussion about bees can't mention varroa in some way/shape/form these days. In fact whenever I talk to someone "all the problems that bees are having" seems to come up. I make sure that I leave them with the impression that varroa is the number one problem honey bees have right now. All of the information available via hive surveys and speaking with our state apiarist bears that out. 

There were three perspective beekeepers at a club meeting we had last week. One didn't say much except that he was going to build a fancy "Warren" have (he meant Warre). One couple knew what varroa was, knew there were treatment options for them, and had a rough idea that varroa kills bees in some fashion. The third started out by saying, "I read that you need to start planting flowers for your bees before you get them."

If you had to place $100 bet on who would be more likely have bees in 2018 where would you put your money? One likes the shiny object, one has at least some root in reality and the issues that bees face, and the other is off in la-la land and was under the impression that her honey bees wouldn't even leave her yard. As is the case often in the TF subforum (echo chamber) here, reality is disconnected from the "boots on the ground" facts... if you go out and talk to first/second year beekeepers I'd say that more than 2/3rds of them are unaware of varroa or have read something to convince them that varroa is not a real issue. We forget that Beesource is a small subset of beekeepers and it is not at all representative of what is really out there when you start talking to people.

EDITED TO ADD:
What I'm getting at is that what I consider the most sane approach, which is treating and moving towards a goal of non-treating, seems to be nearly completely unmentioned... and even when it is many TF folks still seem to look down upon that approach. The last thing a new beekeeper needs is to lose bees to varroa because they or their mentor were so dead set against killing mites once or twice a year as a bridge to the sustainable keeping of bees. I think THAT is pathetic. Like I said in another thread... I'm treatment free 51 out of 52 weeks a year. Over 98% of the time.


----------



## WLeeH (Jan 16, 2015)

I find that most of the people most of the time will make a purchase or an investment into any type of object or enterprise with very minimal research, knowledge, or education on said purchase. Regardless of their lack of knowledge they still have the expectation that whatever it is they are purchasing it should work flawlessly if not over and above what might be advertised. When these ventures fail due to their lack of research, knowledge, or education they quickly want to blame the person, company, or entity that sold them the "snake oil" in the first place. This is usually how businesses fail, or how hobbies die.

Here's the deal with becoming a beekeeper. Getting into beekeeping is usually a conscious choice of the consumer who is trying to step into that world. I can't really ever recall seeing a bill board or advert saying "Come buy our bee's, they're great! Beekeeping it's the new puppy you get to keep that you don't have to walk! Our bees are the best bees, don't buy bad bees from S-Mart buy them from us at B-Mart." Buying bees usually isn't an impulse buy, and if it is, well those people must hang out in places I don't. With beekeeping typically a person has made a decision to get into beekeeping either as a hobby or as a sideline business. If you are going to make that decision, as with all things in life (or at least the way it should be) you the consumer should perform your due diligence on the matter at hand. Taking an introductory course is a good first step. However it alone should not be your only step. You should ask others who are experienced, perhaps buy a few books on beekeeping, and just like anything else these days, research on the internet as it has a vast wealth of knowledge . 

I really want to use "You wouldn't buy a car without first looking at reviews, talking to others that own that type of car, and researching the title history of a used car, learning the basics of care maintenance, etc", but I know for a fact that people buy cars on impulse and drive them without ever checking the oil. You can expect the same result if you do that with bees. It might run fine at first, but eventually it will die on you without proper care.


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

lharder said:


> None, I don't have bees I would feel comfortable selling as tf. Nor do I have a long enough track record to give solid stats re survival.
> 
> However, it was relatively easy to find queens that have at least some resistance to varroa. Those producers are not tf, but varroa resistance is a big part of what they do. Very responsible.
> 
> ...


Woah... going into your 2nd overwintering year and feel you have the experience to lecture others on TF? It's easy to find and be sold queens with claimed varroa resistance. Wait until the smoke of winter clears before crowing of one's "very responsible" varroa resistance. When in fact there's not enough experience under one's proverbial belt buckle to understand diddle of their actual varroa resistance ability. It's the 2nd year that's the important one, and that's assuming it's the same queen in there. A swarm or supercedure would definitely give you a false sense of security. From my experience(s) the vorroa resistant queen(s) I bought (multiple years, from multiple well known suppliers who sell them as such) have no better performance in resisting varroa than the standard mutts I breed or capture in swarms. They had to be treated if I expected them to survive the winter in reasonable numbers. Again, those are just my experiences, not scientific findings.

I love the enthusiasm and desire for TF (I and believe others would pay good money for it) but one might tone it back a bit until enough time has passed to speak from seasoned experience.


----------



## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

To be fair, most of the breeders selling 'high VSH expressing queens' never did a VSH assay in their life, never mind using such assays to determine if what they are selling has the 'high expressing' trait they are selling.

It is only in the last year or so that even the most visible and well known providers of VSH stock even claim to be doing VSH assays.


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

Unfortunately when money becomes involved with beekeeping commons sense can quickly go out the window. I just check on the site of nationally known beekeeper offering a 3 hour introductory classes that promises that you will walk out ready to start your own backyard beehive. The class also prepares you for natural, or treatment free beekeeping. So not only you will be prepared to get started, but evidently you will be ready for an advanced level of beekeeping. When the same folks that offer these three hour courses also sell you the packages every year you have to wonder. 

Many of the people who take these classes will never become beekeepers and that is for the best. If you are hoping that one of these classes will prepare you to keep bees you are naive. I agree with the folks that say, at the end of the day, I alone am responsible for what happens to my bees. That said, I had a great class that was offered for free and went a full winter. I was lucky.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

D Coates said:


> Woah... going into your 2nd overwintering year and feel you have the experience to lecture others on TF? It's easy to find and be sold queens with claimed varroa resistance. Wait until the smoke of winter clears before crowing of one's "very responsible" varroa resistance. When in fact there's not enough experience under one's proverbial belt buckle to understand diddle of their actual varroa resistance ability. It's the 2nd year that's the important one, and that's assuming it's the same queen in there. A swarm or supercedure would definitely give you a false sense of security. From my experience(s) the vorroa resistant queen(s) I bought (multiple years, from multiple well known suppliers who sell them as such) have no better performance in resisting varroa than the standard mutts I breed or capture in swarms. They had to be treated if I expected them to survive the winter in reasonable numbers. Again, those are just my experiences, not scientific findings.
> 
> I love the enthusiasm and desire for TF (I and believe others would pay good money for it) but one might tone it back a bit until enough time has passed to speak from seasoned experience.


I purposely left out the term tf in my discussion. TF or not, genetics is important. I don't need 25 yrs of experience to state this. Taking genetics seriously and doing my homework, making increase with stock that had SOME chance put me in far better position than being saddled with a Hawaiian queen from stock with no experience with Varroa or winter. If I followed the advice of the person I got my first bees from, I wouldn't have lasted the first winter. Going forward is another story.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

lharder said:


> A hive that collapses its first year in a new yard is pathetic.


More likely the beekeeper is pathetic.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> Which puts the above statements at odds.
> 
> Hardly. A first year colony that can't make it through the first summer not withstanding beekeeper error or other random catastrophic event is pathetic. They shouldn't be sold.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

lharder said:


> Hardly. A first year colony that can't make it through the first summer not withstanding beekeeper error or other random catastrophic event is pathetic. They shouldn't be sold.


I'm glad you have it all figured out.  something like 50% of feral bee swarms fail the first summer. Are they pathetic?


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

lharder said:


> jwcarlson said:
> 
> 
> > Which puts the above statements at odds.
> ...


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

gmcharlie said:


> Someday when you get some experience you will realize 2 things, first genetics and bees is an EXTREMLY complicated thing,
> 
> second the weather plays a much bigger factor in colony growth than all the genetics combined.
> 
> In the mean time..... a bit of respect for the men and women who make so many bees and queens they can sell surplus to others would at least be appreciated


Unfortunately, the quote feature was goofed up and it looks like I said that. I didn't.  

See below:


lharder said:


> Hardly. A first year colony that can't make it through the first summer not withstanding beekeeper error or other random catastrophic event is pathetic. They shouldn't be sold.


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

lharder said:


> Hardly. A first year colony that can't make it through the first summer not withstanding beekeeper error or other random catastrophic event is pathetic. They shouldn't be sold.


There are dud queens or queens that get injured/killed within the hive for unknown reasons, mating flights that go bad. There's no way to know a queens actual genetics nor performance if she's open mated. Even if she's AI you may know her genetics but there's no way to actually know how she's going to perform. She has a great laying pattern, the hive is humming along nicely, but there's no way to know her actual varroa resistance, or overwintering capabilities. She's not been there long enough to have more than a couple cycles of brood. The breeder pulls the queen and puts her with 3lbs of bees and ships them off and starts the cycle over. 

So if this package fails it's automatically pathetic? Should the breeder be held accountable and refund the money or send a new package for the failure of a package (especially a new beekeeper)? Should all the queens be held for year to prove their resistance and overwintering capabilities to avoid the "pathetic" label? If you say yes to any of those questions I truly look forward to the day you put your money where your mouth is and start selling packages/queens/nucs. The naivety of that thinking as well as any profits will quickly be adjusted via the real world of experience.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

lharder said:


> None, I don't have bees I would feel comfortable selling as tf. Nor do I have a long enough track record to give solid stats re survival.
> 
> However, it was relatively easy to find queens that have at least some resistance to varroa. Those producers are not tf, but varroa resistance is a big part of what they do. Very responsible.
> 
> ...


For me TF SURVIVAL is almost irrelevant for 2 reasons - 1) I do treat for mites. It's not a hardship, and it works - if you do it right. 2) SURVIVAL isn't my only goal, productivity is.

So if I bought bees (which I pretty much don't) I would want them to be productive first, and gentle next. If they were also able to survive without treatments that would be nice, but way less important to me.

Btw - colonies die. They just do. For all kinds of reasons including mites. And most of them die during the summer. So an occasional colony that doesn't make it through it's first season in a new yard is just one of those things that happens. Once I have had those bees for 2 weeks - if they die it's on me.

Lharder - it probably feels like you just got ganged up on - sorry about that. But you need to understand that when you make statements that boil down to - if you sell bees and they die then you/your product are pathetic - you are gonna' get a rise out of everyone who sells bees. Because some of them always die, and there's not a thing that can be done to change that no matter how good your product is, someone will kill them and blame you.


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

My advise to my customers was to find a mentor. I don't really understand the intro class format. I have been to several for entertainment purposes and found that the people teaching them are typically new to beekeeping themselves. The knowledge of beekeeping is vast and regional and cant be taught in a three hr class or even in a full day.

As consumers we have choices. If you went to this class knowing you were also buying bees from this person, to me that is full disclosure.


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I find the too-big-for-their-britches pronouncements of know-it-all first-year beekeepers *pathetic*.

The usual trajectory is a bit of humility the first year, the second year they are freely dispensing what can loosely be termed "advice", and the on third-year they have erected a web-site and are selling their "survivor stock". Of course in the fourth year, the web site goes dark and the newly-minted "professional" is unreachable.

On another (Facebook) forum this "nym" is complaining his weak nucs got robbed out this fall, and next year he must learn how to use robbing screens. You think? Why were the non-pathetic nucs weak in the first instance? Puzzle me that.

The queen breeders I know are making heroic efforts to produce the strongest queens that artificial selection can generate. There is overwhelming demand for "8-frames in February", and that character may be skewing their efforts -- but queens that can make strong divides in June are just as popular.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I almost lost a colony of very good bees the first season I brought bees here. I put too much faith in the hearsay that first year nucs dont need mite treatment! One nuc out of 6 was struggling and treading water so to speak. Spotty brood pattern but healthy brood and was being relaid in the gaps. They are pretty hygenic bees and were culling mite infected brood and the queen just could not produce enough to make headway. I finally did a sticky board and that told the tale. Several rounds of hopguard and they got going terrific. The other nucs were ahead of the mites but they all got formic acid treatment. If they had failed it would have been entirely on the beekeeper but that kind of thing and a hundred others often gets blamed on bad bees.

There is lots of advice on the internet but it takes a few years to accumulate enough basic bee smarts to be able to cull out the bad stuff (or what doesn't apply to your climate) In the mean time the bad stuff that happens to the bees often gets blamed on someone else, either out of ignorance or to save "face"!


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

If 100 % of the bees die the first year without intervention, they are pathetic. All the ducking and weaving does not alter this fact. Nor do ad hominem arguments. Defending your position, defend your genetics.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

What if 100% die the second year?


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Soooo,.... what if 1% survive their first year without intervention? Is that no longer pathetic? If it still is, where's the cut off for being pathetic? This is why black and white statements don't really work in beekeeping.

Not defending diddle here, as I don't need to. I've got my mutts, I've got hard learned experience under my belt, and most importantly I've got a beekeeping financial balance sheet that's in the black. Noobs show up here all the time spouting on about how they're right and everyone else is wrong, then the real world shows up and they're either gone or they learned enough to listen more than talk. I've been doing it long enough to be relatively dangerous... but not long enough to dream of making blanket statements of things I've not got enough experience to lecture others about.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

lharder said:


> If 100 % of the bees die the first year without intervention, they are pathetic. All the ducking and weaving does not alter this fact. Nor do ad hominem arguments. Defending your position, defend your genetics.


100% of how many? 1000? 100? 20? A statistically insignificant number most likely? 

If 100% of YOUR bees died during the first year that you had them it was YOUR fault. Period. If their genetics weren't suitable for your cultural practices then you bought the wrong bees, and you had the choice of either modifying your practices or changing their genetics by requeening. If you chose to do neither then you chose to let them die. Did the person you bought them from make some kind of promise that they would thrive without treatments? Had they been treatment free up to that point? If no, then what made you think that they could?

It happens all the time, and really there isn't all that much shame in it - until you blame it on the bees or the person you bought them from. 

This is not an ad hominem attack because I'm not attacking you - I* am *quite critical of the so called "Bond" method when it is implemented by people who don't know what they are doing - Which is often characterized by all of their bees dying at some point. New beekeepers have enough challenges already even if they take every advantage that is available to them.

"Without Intervention" who have you been listening to?


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

lharder said:


> If 100 % of the bees die the first year without intervention, they are pathetic. All the ducking and weaving does not alter this fact. Nor do ad hominem arguments. Defending your position, defend your genetics.


sounds like you are in for a very steep learning curve and one that will be filled with disappointment and constant
finger pointing. much fun awaits you, charge on!


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

OK, lets make this simple. If a breeder A cares about varroa resistance as part of their selection process, TF or not and 90 % of first year nucs make it through their first winter without treatment and breeder B ignores it and has 40 % of first year nucs make it through the first winter without treatment, which is a beginner most likely to have success with? Are both breeders equally responsible? 

Is it fair to say that success is a factor of experience, management style and genetics?

If people read carefully, I haven't talked about bond vs other ways of selective breeding. The topic is responsible breeding programs vs indifferent ones and their effect on beginner success.


----------



## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Iharder - Have you read Beekeeping at Buckfast Abby by Brother Adam? If not, I think it will give you some idea as to what it takes to actually be a bee breeder and develop a strain of bees with whatever desirable trait one wants. I wonder what he would think about the breeding comments in this topic.


----------



## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

The reason for poor beginner success is the fact that they did not do the research to be a bee keeper. If you do not monitor your mite levels, and your bees die of PMS it is your fault. There are very effective methods of mite control available. This is regardless of the producers philosophy of breeding for mite resistance. From my experience with others the biggest cause of bee keeping failure is pure laziness, and blaming others for their failure comes right along with this.


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

orthoman said:


> I wonder what he would think about the breeding comments in this topic.


Given he was a celibate monk it's hard to surmise.


----------



## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Dave Burrup said:


> The reason for poor beginner success is the fact that they did not do the research to be a bee keeper. If you do not monitor your mite levels, and your bees die of PMS it is your fault. There are very effective methods of mite control available. This is regardless of the producers philosophy of breeding for mite resistance. From my experience with others the biggest cause of bee keeping failure is pure laziness, and blaming others for their failure comes right along with this.


Our club has a speaker who frequently refers to "Beekeeper Inattention Disorder" that essentially is neglect. He also talks about "Loving our bees to death" referring mainly to new beekeepers who just can't leave them alone and go into the hives too often and cause damage, queen damage or death, etc.


----------



## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

bluegrass said:


> Given he was a celibate monk it's hard to surmise.


Ahh-- you sure he was celibate --- always question the conventional wisdom.


----------



## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

What a fun thread to read.

I would not place this poor success solely on beginners either. A few weeks ago some acquaintances and I were talking about the demand for packages each year. I tried to really think about that and reduce it to what I think causes that demand in my area. New beekeepers of course cause demand. In addition, I had the idea that beekeepers (that I know anyway) fall into 3 categories.

Category 1 has a lot of hives. Treatment free or not, they take that 30-50% loss every year but have so many hives that they are not beeless come spring. They spend all summer splitting to get back to that high number of hives to do it all over again.

Category 2 has figured out how to keep their bees alive. Treatment in my area is often involved. These beekeepers manage mites, manage queenrightness, manage fall weight to ensure winter stores, etc. It does not matter how many hives these beekeepers have because their losses are low, often times very low. I'd argue that you can give these beekeepers almost any package in the spring and chances are good it will still be going the next spring.

Category 3 are those beekeepers who would be in category 1 except they only have 1-2, maybe 3-4 hives. With a 30-50% chance of loss on each of those hives, the math isn't pretty (I've done it). They have a very good chance of being completely beeless, or close to it, come spring. This isn't always the result of PPB, some are very involved in their bees, but simply haven't figured it out. Without meaning to pigeonhole them, many in this category are very fearful of treating for mites or just don't think mites could possibly be the issue. It has to be whatever the farmer sprayed next door, or GMOs, or <insert latest ecological boogeyman here>. Many in this category don't stick with it but some do this year in and year out. I don't believe there's some genetically superior bee out there alive today that will put them into category 2. Changes to management are what's needed to do that. 

I think new beekeepers will, within 2-3 years, find themselves in one of the three categories.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Iharder; I am not sure what you are wrapped around the axle about! 

"Is it fair to say that success is a factor of experience, management style and genetics?" Too broad a question. That is like how long is a piece of string. Local conditions and suitability of the genetic traits of the bees to the different conditions is a big factor in whether one producers bees do well for different buyers. How many colonies are you considering as a representative case study? Mite resistance is also not an either/or condition. Varying degrees are expressed and not always due to the same mechanism and not always in combination with the same parallel disease and pest resistance. It seems also that local areas can harbor different strains of mites with different virulence factors. You better add this to the controls on your suggested comparison.

I really don't know who you identify as being in need of an attitude adjustment.

You said, lets make this simple. Get on it!


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

libhart - I think you've nailed it.


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

To be fair; Karl Kehrle had an entire world worth of Genetic diversity at his disposal. We don't have that genetic resource for bee development anymore. We have to work within the confines of our importation regulations. 

The bottom line is there isn't an idiot proof bee and likely never will bee. The only thing we have going for us is knowledge and a large dose of luck.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

bluegrass said:


> To be fair; Karl Kehrle had an entire world worth of Genetic diversity at his disposal.


Not to mention an almost perfectly isolated breeding yard.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

orthoman said:


> Iharder - Have you read Beekeeping at Buckfast Abby by Brother Adam? If not, I think it will give you some idea as to what it takes to actually be a bee breeder and develop a strain of bees with whatever desirable trait one wants. I wonder what he would think about the breeding comments in this topic.


Once again we are not talking about my competence or not. Nor am I saying my bees are great and everyone else's aren't. This was piled onto my statements by others.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

crofter said:


> Iharder; I am not sure what you are wrapped around the axle about!
> 
> "Is it fair to say that success is a factor of experience, management style and genetics?" Too broad a question. That is like how long is a piece of string. Local conditions and suitability of the genetic traits of the bees to the different conditions is a big factor in whether one producers bees do well for different buyers. How many colonies are you considering as a representative case study? Mite resistance is also not an either/or condition. Varying degrees are expressed and not always due to the same mechanism and not always in combination with the same parallel disease and pest resistance. It seems also that local areas can harbor different strains of mites with different virulence factors. You better add this to the controls on your suggested comparison.
> 
> ...


Its not too broad. If you accept its premise then it will shape decision making, perhaps even ethical ones.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Reading what the course attendees said, it seems they had the impression he would teach them how to keep bees.


----------



## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

Here's what the pamphlet says; 

INTRODUCTION TO BEEKEEPING 
Cost- FREE 9am-12
Basic Beekeeping information on how to get started with bees.

That sounds exactly like what they got. A free basic course that got them started, and they (norcalkyle and beebop anyways) stepped up and took it from there. That's the way it's supposed to work.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Oh OK, how to get started. Well I guess they got what they were told then.


----------



## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

It actually says how to get started and what to expect in the first year. 

This thread was not meant to tarnish anyone or even talk negatively about anyone's approach.... what I wanted to ask for opinions on is whether people think mite treatment or at least information about expecting high loss rates if you are going to go tf. After taking the course I stumbled upon this site and consequently started to see how most people's problems revolved around high mite loads.

I just was interested in hearing other people's opinions about how they would teach a class to beginners. I will be purchasing bees and equipment from this outfit in the future as I think their prices and bees are fair and good quality. Like I said in the beginning, this area is a very "save the planet" type of place and I believe most of their customers wouldnt treat even if you told them to expect 90% losses every year.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Were I teaching an intro course I would explain somewhere in the course how in all likelihood your bees won't survive the first Winter. Seems like an explanation of the trials and tribulations of modern beekeeping would be an ethical obligation.


----------



## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

.....and at that point, the peanut gallery will tell you that since you are selling bees (to keep the analogy consistent with the premise of the thread) to people amd teaching them to care for them....and you don't expect that combination (of bees and new beekeepers taking your class) will survive the winter. Congratulations, you are the newest unethical instructor.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh well, being honest and unethical at the same time? How do you handle this Dean?


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Sqkcrk - That's probably a really good opener for a beginner class - something like "Most likely the bees you get this spring will be dead within a year - leaving you with having to choose to buy more bees or give up on beekeeping." And then proceed to tell them how some beekeepers are able to improve on that outlook.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sqkcrk>> agree with your post #98. It's the reality of the situation many (most?) have a hard time with. 
To me the reality of the situation is that there is just a great deal of learning that needs to take place and
very quickly too in order to have success (bees that are alive) the first year. Some good luck helps.
The good luck runs out in year 2 for many.
Couple that with instructors who may not have the experience or knowledge, like limited experience beekeepers who
have also read some books and somehow now feel qualified to teach others about bees and the deck is stacked against
success even further. People listen because they don't know any better. If they were introduced to and listened to one with 
many years of experience keepeing bees they would quickly sense the difference in depth of knowledge, and thought processes.
This experienced beekeeper doesn't have to be the main draw at the convention either. 
Every bee seller claims to have the "right bees", the "best bees", "special bees", and it's all the art of selling something. 
No different than any other item for sale out there. The sales pitch. Sometimes it's just plain old bs.

It's been said often that beekeeping is a journey and the knowledge is cumulative. As long
as one continues to keep bees the journey continues and the knowledge accumulates. The result is
a higher success rate. Teachers should say this clearly. And say it ain't so easy to be a successful beekeeper.


----------



## Cessna180 (Jan 31, 2009)

Hello,
I teach classes every so often, I have a power point presentation. It takes 1 hour to go thru if I don't stop. The class is just on Mites. Then there are the questions. Keeping bees is a life long commitment of learning. I learn something from the big guys every time I talk to them. A three hour class is and overview. There are some good online courses to take if you want. The one at Penn State is good. Cost 125.00 and when I spend money on something I tend to listen better. Here's an article about mite treatments. Treatment free is a hot topic. But in the end Treatment free for many backyard beeks means dead bees. Good luck and keep learning. I I treat cause I got a lot invested in bees. http://www.sussex.ac.uk/broadcast/read/33537 Northwestbeesupply.com


----------

