# Unmated queen laying eggs?



## A.B. (Sep 15, 2016)

If a queen has not mated successfully will she eggs in worker cells? or drone cells only?
I made a post recently showing what looks like built out worker cells and I suspect it was an unmated queen laying.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Worker cells. Drone cells too if there is any I suppose, but she will lay in worker cells as well. You'll see worker cells with high domed drone caps.


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## A.B. (Sep 15, 2016)

RayMarler said:


> Worker cells. Drone cells too if there is any I suppose, but she will lay in worker cells as well. You'll see worker cells with high domed drone caps.


Thanks.. Like this?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Maybe? Sorry, I can't tell. The PC I use the Linux does not see my video card correctly and pics are so dark I can't tell much from them. Maybe someone else will comment. You'll know more if they all emerge and you have a bunch of drones.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

It's not that easy to see, maybe some are drone cells but not all are. You are right though there is cause for concern. The brood pattern is not good. How many bees are in this hive?


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## A.B. (Sep 15, 2016)

There is probably 5 solid frames of bees and the eggs are in nearly every cell. I did just re queen though but was curious anyway.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Pull some pupae from capped cells, and see what they are.


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## A.B. (Sep 15, 2016)

Michael Palmer said:


> Pull some pupae from capped cells, and see what they are.


I never thought of that, I'll look up what a drone pupae looks like compared to a worker.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

MP - excellent suggestion!

AB - You should be able to tell by the eyes. Drones have large, wrap-around eyes. Workers do not. Be careful not to destroy the eyes when you remove the dome cap.

To me, they do not look like drone caps. They look like worker caps that were laid in honey combs that got cut awfully short when de-capping, then were crowded like 11 narrow frames in a 10-frame box. 

Even the drones laid in the large drone cells have taller dome caps than that. These are supposedly drones laid in worker cells? The caps should be huge! By all means open a few and look.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

My experience was with a queen who was laying a high percentage of drones in worker cells. Since they were mixed worker and drone in worker cells you could clearly see the bullet nose drone cells. I wish I had snapped a picture. They would have projected approx. 1/4 inch beyond the level of the capped worker cells. Hundreds of them were being cut out and hauled out by workers. Supercedure cells were capped at this stage.

The pictures posted dont seem quite radical enough to be sure; I think kilocharlie is probably correct.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It looks like worker cells to me. Drone cells look like Kix cereal or round nose bullets. But yes, a drone laying queen (which is either a late mated queen or one that ran out of sperm) will lay in worker cells.


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## A.B. (Sep 15, 2016)

O.K. seems like I have been a bit hasty in re queening them.. Oh well, i did keep one of the queens.
They just seemed to protrude more than usual. 
All a learning experience. Thanks Guys.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Worker cells are always somewhat convex. Sometimes they are a bit more convex than others, but they are never hemispherical.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> a drone laying queen (which is either a late mated queen or one that ran out of sperm) will lay in worker cells.


Does a laying worker fly out on a mating flight before she lays eggs? No one has ever claimed this was the case. What happens to a queen if she is confined and can not fly out on a mating flight? Eventually she will lay drone eggs. I think claiming drone laying queens are either late mated or run out of sperm is only half right. Yes on running out of sperm but I have seen absolutely no evidence that late mating is required to get a drone layer. No mating at all is just as good and a great deal more likely. I will be happy to change my mind if anyone can provide the slightest experimental evidence I am wrong. In fact is there any such thing as late mating? I doubt it. After all, you can take an old queen that is a drone layer and II her and turn her back into a normal worker laying queen. So, there is no evidence that late mating would result in no sperm transfer.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Does a laying worker fly out on a mating flight before she lays eggs? No one has ever claimed this was the case. 

I don't think that is the case.

>What happens to a queen if she is confined and can not fly out on a mating flight? Eventually she will lay drone eggs.

I'm not saying that can't be true, but in my experience it is not true. Huber certainly did not think that was true. He confined queens for a lot of different time periods and none of them ever laid until they mated. My experience is with queens with crumpled or damaged wings. I've never seen any of them lay no matter how long they are left.

> I think claiming drone laying queens are either late mated or run out of sperm is only half right. Yes on running out of sperm but I have seen absolutely no evidence that late mating is required to get a drone layer. No mating at all is just as good and a great deal more likely. I will be happy to change my mind if anyone can provide the slightest experimental evidence I am wrong.

Huber documented a lot of experimental evidence to that effect. See "New Observations upon Bees"

> In fact is there any such thing as late mating? I doubt it. After all, you can take an old queen that is a drone layer and II her and turn her back into a normal worker laying queen.

I would be interested in documentation to that effect. I have never heard of it before just now.

>So, there is no evidence that late mating would result in no sperm transfer.

http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#impregnationaffectstheovaries

Most of Letter III is on this topic and you may find the entire letter interesting so I won't quote the entire letter. But this paragraph is also interesting, that a queen with retarded fecundation (as opposed to an old queen who becomes a drone layer) is physically different.

"I should also describe the very remarkable manner in which queens, that lay only the eggs of drones, sometimes deposit them in the cells. Instead of being placed in the lozenges forming the bottom, they are frequently deposited on the lower side of the cells, two lines (2/12ths in.=4.2mm) from the mouth. This arises from the body of such queens being shorter than that of those whose fecundation has not been retarded. The extremity remains slender, while the first two rings next the thorax are uncommonly swollen. Thus, in disposing themselves for laying, the extremity cannot reach the bottom of the cells on account of the swollen rings; consequently the eggs must remain attached to the part that the extremity reaches. The worms proceeding from them pass their vermicular state in the same place where the eggs were deposited, which proves that bees are not charged with the care of transporting the eggs as has been supposed."--Francis Huber, New Observations Upon Bees, Letter III


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## A.B. (Sep 15, 2016)

Thanks for the Information. I will spend some time going over this.
There seems to be differing opinions on this topic but it seems that that the cells in the pic I posted are regarded by most people here as worker brood.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

This article has a really good picture of drone brood next to worker.
Note how the drone brood looks like bullets? Round spherical caps. 
http://cookevillebeekeepers.com/12/three-kinds-of-brood-comb


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## A.B. (Sep 15, 2016)

aunt betty said:


> This article has a really good picture of drone brood next to worker.
> Note how the drone brood looks like bullets? Round spherical caps.
> http://cookevillebeekeepers.com/12/three-kinds-of-brood-comb


Thanks aunt betty, that was helpful! although mine were in worker cells. Helpful all the same though, thanks.


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