# when to take hive back out to field



## newbeek (Apr 3, 2015)

I am new bee keeper put in first pkg. of bees 5/07/2014 they built 8 brood combs and seven honey combs over the summer with a month lull where they built nothing. I checked them several times with my friend who got me into bees and he said they were fine.I did not take any honey from hive. Winter is very harsh here so in the fall I insulated outside of hive with 1 inch blue board and put 3 1/2 inchs of fiber glass on top bars with a piece of plastic over that. I then drilled 1 inch holes in both ends of hive box and also gable ends of roof and put sofit screen plugs in to keep out critters. I plugged 2 of 3 entrances with corks .I then moved hive into an old ice fish shanty that was about 75 feet from where hive was and put 2 12 oz. soda bottle entrance feeders with store bought honey that I heated to 160 degrees and cooled. they have gone thru 10 pounds so far. I checked them everyday and occasionly would see them clustered on the feeding trough especially when it warmed to about 50 degees inside.
Februay was brutal here average temperature for month was below zero now that it is warming upbees are coming out of hive in droves and flying all around I am finding hundreds dead especiall 3/31 and 4/2 and 4/3/2015 . Is this normal? Should I leave them inside or put them out into weather again? It is still a month before any dandelions will be out.
Today it snowed so I do not know what to do.The main thing I guess is that they are alive now I just have to keep them alive. any suggestions.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

It's prudent to never ever use store bought honey, and heating it (not sure about how high a temp) can convert it so that it's bad for the bees. I've never heard of anyone heating store honey in an attempt to sanitize it. I won't even eat that stuff, you just have no idea what's in it.

No doubt more experienced beeks will chime in here...

Just feed CANE sugar syrup - the store brands are NOT cane, but gmo beet, so get the c&h unless the package clearly states it is cane.

Hum along with me - 
c&h, pure cane sugar
from hawaii
growin' in the sun....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNjZ1w-l1KU

For you youngsters that didn't get this permanently burned into your brain. lol

You've had them locked in an ice fishing shanty with no access to the outdoors? Doesn't sound so good to me, but I'm on the left coast and we don't have ice fishing shanties. Thank God. I've seen videos of what goes on inside those places. ;-)


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## newbeek (Apr 3, 2015)

thanks for the reply
the reason for feeding store bought
is that I did not have any honey from hive being new at this and I had read that feeding a sugar syrup mixture in the winter puts excess mosture in the hive and that heating to 160 degrees would pasturize it. it did not kill them 

.
I had left an opening 8inches by 2 feet so the bees had excess to the outside
so they were not locked in.
that was my concern that now that the days are getting warmer the bees are coming out and iwould guess from what on see in the snow and on floor of shanty hundreds are dying and was wondering if that was normal or should I just put them back outside.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

How's the mite situation?


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## newbeek (Apr 3, 2015)

Hello:
I do not know at this time, but my mentor who has had bees for 5 or more years said it was fine when we checked last summer.
The only thing that has been done was to dust them with powdered sugar sometime last summer.
this year I am going to keep a log of everything done to hive.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Well, that could be your problem right there. If they had a big mite load in the fall it could be decimating them now. You should be keeping the sharpest eye out for varroa in the fall/early winter.

My first year swarm had scads of varroa last last november, treated with an oa dribble and all is boomin' now. Might have been otherwise without that treatment.

You need to do a sugar shake or something and figure that out before you go further. OA dribble is easy to do and it doesn't sound as if they're brooding up yet, so you could do an oa dribble.


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## newbeek (Apr 3, 2015)

You may be right but I have no way to treat, I figured because it is still winter here and temperature inside shanty gets so warm up to 50 degrees on the warmer days (Sun warms up shanty)when they come out and hit that 35 degree air they die. I have watched them come out fly around then drop to ground. I have a 3 foot brass pipe I put up to entrance hole and listen, the hive is very loud so there is still a lot of bees in hive. I hesitate to ask my mentor as he has lost his hives 2 years in a row. I have been told to not open hive as it is to cold to open it, . What is your weather like ?


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

I am on the left coast, mild weather compared to your location. We have an abundance of moisture, but cold, not so much. Anything I say is only my opinion and I am far from a bee guru. But, I've tried hard to do my homework so that my opinions have a solid base.

Okay:

1) Starving or not? So you say the storebought and heated honey didn't affect them adversely, but I'd still not eliminate that as a factor. At this point, if you can feed them warm 2:1 syrup that would be best, eliminate the possibility going forward that the honey is to blame for your dieoff. Could be it took time to affect them. Can you somehow rig up a heating pad or such to keep the syrup warm? Feeding them is more important than the moisture issue probably.

I recommend you research THOROUGHLY the idea of feeding unknown source honey to your bees, AND the effects on honey heated to 160 and bees that consume it, sounds awfully hot to me, I've done a ton of research for 3-4 years and have NEVER heard anyone advocating this. I've gone by the guideline of not heating my crystallized honey to more than 110 to reliquefy it because of the adverse changes.

No offense to your mentor, but if he's lost his hives the last two years perhaps you might want to do things differently. 

2) Varroa - perhaps you can do a sugar shake with no hive intrusion by putting a trap over the entrance temporarily, during the day when it's warmed up a bit so they don't freeze in the trap. Trap the bees coming out so you don't have to open up the hive, do a sugar shake on 'em and release 'em back. Not the best way of sampling, but... I think you can treat with oxalic in cold temps, unlike some other remedies, but I can't find that right now on Randy Oliver's site... If so, it goes real quick and you don't need to remove any bars, a few minutes to squirt a bit of warm oa solution in there shouldn't be a problem. Do it when it's warmest.

Rusty has a good writeup here for formula, though I cut the proportions way down for a single hive so as not to waste the stuff:
http://rustysbees.com/dribble.html

And see Randy's stuff here, a bit more complicated than it needs to be, but good info:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-treatment-table/

Search the board or the web for suitable temps for oa dribble. I did mine at the end of november, outside temp in the day probably <50, somewhat mirrors your temps inside the icehouse.

3) Bees inside a structure where they are fooled into thinking it's warm out. I was warned against this when I put my hive in a little greenhouse lean-to, but I didn't do that like you did. It was more of an overhang to keep the wind and rain off, not much of a solar collector and the entire end was completely open. Maybe it's not doing the bees any good when it warms up to 50 in there if the outside temps at the same time are 35. I can see that it makes sense in your climate to keep the hive nice and warm, but the entrance probably should be directly out to the real weather so they can judge whether or not it's safe to go flyin' around.

So you've got a lot of non standard issues here, hard to suss out what's what. Lotsa maybe shouldas:

Maybe shoulda made sure they had plenty of stores going into winter, candy board 'n such appropriate to your weather.
Maybe shoulda stuck with cane sugar syrup so you don't have to worry about that strange honey factor.
Maybe shoulda rigged the hive for winter better, in a way that doesn't fool your bees into thinking it's nice out when it ain't.
Maybe shoulda monitored mites going into winter. One shake in the summer doesn't do it.
Maybe shoulda probably mite treated in the fall/early winter so they didn't have a big mite load going in.

We live 'n learn, eh? I got lucky in November, had I not had a removable bottom tray and been paying attention I might be stressing now. It's said luck favors the well prepared.


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## newbeek (Apr 3, 2015)

Wow you gave and old new beekeeper a lot to digest I will be 71 the 8th.
I do not feed them hot honey I heat to to 160 degees and then let it cool to room temperature but I am taking your advice I already bought a 4# bag of pure cane sugar
and will be mixing that with 4 pounds of hot waterand cooling it down before feeding.
I had just came in from removing all the felt covering the front of shanty so now it is exposed to outside weather but out of the wind so as you say they will not be tricked into thinking it is okay to come out. As for the other stuff I have to do some reading on it I have no idea I checked the hive this morning and can hear a lot of activity in the hive but no bees are out. 28 degrees here. thanks for your replys


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Congrats on your impending birthday and good job! I'm sorry you're gettin' yer whatsis froze.

No, I didn't think you were feeding them hot honey, just concerned about what the heat does to to the honey.

You might want to adjust the pH of the syrup - it's generally quite a bit higher than honey. Rusty has a good writeup here:

http://rustysbees.com/sugarsyrup.html

I know, I know, it's one more thing to buy and fiddle with. ;-) You can get test strips in pharmacies and online, or buy a meter but they're not cheap. If you get strips, try to get some in the range of 2-10 or so, some are, say, 4.5-9 and that's fairly worthless for this application. Measuring pH is handy for all sorts of fun things, fermentation, your own bodily fluids...

Are you feeding inside the hive? 'Cuz at those temps they ain't comin' out for awhile. What stores are in the hive?


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## mailmam (May 8, 2014)

Can you tell me how to do an oa dribble in a top bar? I had never heard of it but clicked on the links you provided and see that he is talking about a lang. Can you be more specific? Thanks for the good information.


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## newbeek (Apr 3, 2015)

mailmam:
I do not know how but if you send a message to Apismellifera I am sure he will help you out as he is the one who sent the links.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

mailmam said:


> Can you tell me how to do an oa dribble in a top bar? I had never heard of it but clicked on the links you provided and see that he is talking about a lang. Can you be more specific? Thanks for the good information.


No diff for a top bar. I have spacers between my top bars, makes it easy to do this. Remove the spacer, squirt in 5cc, replace spacer, rinse and repeat. My bars are 1.25" wide, spacers .25". The squirt subdues the bees a bit, should make it easier to scootch the bars back together if you have no spacers.

If you have no spacers, then I'd say begin at the back of the hive, make a workspace by removing a bar or two or follower, scoot the "last" bar with bees over .25, squirt 5cc into seam, move next bar, etc. When you're done treating all the "seams" of bees, scootch all of the bars back up to the front.

Remember, no more than 50cc per hive, so if you have more than 10 bars @ 5cc a bar, you might want to use a bit less per "seam". If you have a full hive of 25-30 bars, that'd be only about 2cc per seam. I wouldn't worry about going over slightly, but you probably don't want to use 100cc on 25 bars.

The biggest pain is whipping up a small batch of the stuff for a single hive. Most formulas are for a quart or more of the stuff, all you need is 50cc, gets a bit exacting. A good scale is your friend.

You want to do this when there is no brood. You're in Iowa? Have fresh brood or not yet? Have you verified mite count by sugar shake? Seeing any on bottom board? I highly recommend a removable bottom board of a light color, it really helps to see what's dropping. My take would be that if you're seeing any varroa on a bottom board and you have no brood, AND you've not treated within a year, good to go. Some folks want exacting mite counts but I figure if you're seeing 'em on the board you've got a good infestation.


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## newbeek (Apr 3, 2015)

I am not feeding inside the hive. I have replaced the honey with sugar syrup 2to 1 as you recommended. I mixed 8 pounds of pure cane sugar in 4 pounds of water that took a while to get into a solution. Today there was a ball of bees at the front entrance feeders it was 40 degrees in the shanty.I think the cluster is somewhere around the entrance because any activity there brings them out. I am going to move them back where they were last summer just as soon as I can get someone to help me. have to move about 75 feet.I read all the links you sent and I think I am going to pass on the oxalic acid treatment to many if you do not know what you are doing, you could harm your bees. I read a lot of Michael Bush that is why I have a top bar for natural cell size,to control varroa.I am an organic gardner and wanted to do same with bees. I suppose a Lang with no foundation is the same. AS quick as it warms up will do the powdered sugar As for stores in the hive I do not know.When it was put in the shanty last fall it looked like 8 or 9 full honey combs. I did not take any from hive all year.
I think opening the shanty up to outside as you recommended made all the differenceI only see small bunches near entrance with no dead bees on floor now not like beforewhen there was hundreds.
I used my garden PH meter and got 6.9 with syrup do not know if it is right will get strips tomorrow. 40 degress now 2:36pm


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Hm... Well, we're told not to feed syrup, or that they won't feed because they or the syrup is too cold, below 50, which is why I asked about in the hive. If the syrup is warm >60 but not hot, that MIGHT be okay, but if they consume syrup <50 it may chill them to the point they cannot return to the hive. If you don't have a heat source on the syrup outside the hive it's not going to stay >50 for long if you put it out warm. Yeh, that ph is a high - you'll want to adjust to 4-4.5, just a few drops of good cider vinegar or lemon juice at a time... I followed someone's recipe that had .5 tsp or so and it was way too much. Add a little, stir and check with your meter 'till it's between 4-4.5.

On the other hand, feeding IN the hive in colder temps is good, assuming the bees are keeping the internal temp >50. It really sounds to me as if you need to add candy blocks or such, not induce them to come out of the hive <50. You could take that 2-1 syrup and refine it candy, have to look up a recipe, I think you might have to add more sugar and a few other things. I fed 2:1 in the fall and it's mild so I haven't had to deal with candy, but in cold climes it seems the prudent thing to do. It's possible your bees have no stores, could be bad. I understand not wanting to open up the hive to inspect and I agree, but sliding a candy board in there is minimal. You could also place that entrance feeder inside the hive if the temp is >50. I'd think candy board would be less intrusive with the cold, one hive intrusion vs probably more for syrup.

Does that make sense? 

In reference to OA dribble - I also am a natural advocate, treatment free, etc, but... I'm fairly convinced that the OA dribble I did in the fall probably saved my bees and certainly set them up for the boom they're experiencing now. I'd rather use something benign like OA than lose my bees, can't be a hardliner on that. And if I can get by with one dribble a year it's nothing. OA is not a persistent chemical, it's a natural acid, and it dissipates quickly. My reading indicates that the chance of a single oa dribble per year harming your bees is virtually nil. I can say that it didn't seem to slow my bees down at all. I think the US is behind, but in other countries the oa is an approved organic treatment. It's readily available, cheap and easy and SAFE to apply this way, kind of a pain to measure in small quantities but doable. Again, should be done when there is no brood so if you were going to treat you might want to do that when it warms up a bit more but before they start brood back up. Timing...

Your choice - but you might want to post 2 separate messages - one asking about oa dribble in your region - timing and such.

The other about cold and feeding in your climate.

I'm not an "expert" and I don't have the same issues you are facing, so someone in your area might have better answers. I've found it's easier to get clear answers if your posts are single issue. I tend to shotgun and never get answers. ;-)

But I'm glad for your bees that you've made the changes you did, at least you eliminated a few factors that might have been contributing. A few folks chimed in on oa in this thread recently:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?309552-Splittin-at-the-seams!


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## newbeek (Apr 3, 2015)

I have a mason jar feeder the kind that has several small holes poked in lid that you invert and bees suck syrup out of little holes.
I could put that in behind follower board if you thought it would work might keep syrup a little warmer being inside.
the problem up here is I know no one who has top bar they are all lang except the 2 guys who got me into bees and they lost there bees 2 years in a row. I am the newbee and somehow mine are still alive for now???


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

newbeek said:


> I am the newbee and somehow mine are still alive for now???


I can see why you don't want to rub it in. LOL

If they were mine I'd definitely set that feeder up in the hive - they can get around the follower? Then a quick check every couple of days. You will know how hungry they are by how fast it goes. May want to add another if they're emptying it in hours or a day as opposed to 2-3 so you don't have to go in so often.

I was completely shocked when my rather small hive, about 10-12 bars, was going through a gallon a day of the 2:1. They must have needed it bad. I started out thinking I didn't want to feed sugar, but here again, feed or lose the bees? Especially going into the first winter when the numbers are not strong.

Usually in spring you feed 1:1, but I figure this is really a case of winter feeding, and less water is less water in the hive and more sugar per sip for the bees.


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## newbeek (Apr 3, 2015)

Hello:
just thought I would update on my hive moved it out of fish shanty 4/13/15 around 
5am corked entrance hole and moved them with a friend to original location, about 9am when it started to warm up I took cork out and about 200 bees flew to shanty and stayed there about 4 hours before going back to hive. This morning when looking into view window it looks like there are way more bees than yesterday
Monday 4/13 they drank 92 oz. 1-1 cane sugar syrup , 4/14 80oz and 4/15 56oz so they must be getting something on there own. I also put a winter patty into the hive but they have not touched it. My 2 buddys have lost there hives again this year and getting pkg. bees in May.
So in spite of doing everything wrong feeding store bought honey heating it to 160 degrees cooling then giving to bees my hive is alive and healthy I do not know how or why. I think it was because I drilled vent holes into peaked rood and also into left side of hive to get rid of mosture.???? as we speak it is 56 degrees and bees are all over feeders and outside hive. I have a couple of the trough kind that screw onto soda bottles they work well and one quart canning jar kind with holes in a holder so bees can get under it.
Well thanks again for replyng to my post and will keep you posted on how they do this summer.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Good for you and your bees! Please do keep us posted on how they do.


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