# Swarm traps and unspoken code of ethics



## rick54 (May 8, 2014)

I put out a dozen last spring and caught 0 swarms. I heard of no swarms being caught. None were stolen and I didn't identify them in any way as to ownership. I don't think there is any code of ethics per se either. I know about 3/4 of a mile from me there is a commercial beek who parks about 20 hives in an old gravel pit for the summer. I'm going to place some traps in the trees along the edge of the gravel pit to catch any swarms that issue from his hives. Is that ethical you ask, well I've kept bees for years and nobody ever knocked on my door to see if I'd object to placing so many hives within the flight radius of my bees. We all share the same fields and flowers.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

"I have a few friendly places I can put them"

If by that you mean you have the landowner's permission, your good. In most (many?) States the landowner owns a swarm unless the swarm was visibly observed from hive to landing.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Is there a unspoken code of ethics among beekeepers and swarm trap setting?

Yes. Beekeepers are the most honest of any profession and you can have no fear of any beekeeping item ever being stolen.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Do not set swarm traps on private property unless you have the landowners permission, usually easy to get. Otherwise, public lands, right of ways, etc. are a good alternative. I put my name and phone numer on those traps and try to locate them so they are not readily visible to passersby. You would probably have more trouble with vandals than people stealing the bees or equipment.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

I'll take a leap of faith that you're only putting out bait hives where you have permission from the property owner, otherwise trespass laws apply.

Before ethics and beyond trespass. In many states beekeepers must be register with the state and at least one of the hives in an apiary must be clearly marked with the owner's registration number or the hives can be considered a nuisance, the nuisance negated by the authorities along with any applicable legal ramifications. Some states even have regulations prohibiting movement of bees or used equipment across county/precinct/etc lines without being inspected and in receipt of a transfer permit. You might want to check your state and local apiary laws/regulations if you want to stay in complete compliance.

Damage and/or theft, you know the probability for your areas better; like beekeeping, it can be localized too.

Ethics - reverse roles and stand in the other individual's shoes, would it ruffle your feathers. I've found a short conversation goes a long way with most folks around my area


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## rick54 (May 8, 2014)

These are all good comments and I agree that trespassing without permission to install a trap is not good juju. In my state the road right-of-way extends 33 ft. from the center of the road. So there usually is a nice fence line of trees in which to install a trap. Parks, state game areas, etc. would work also. Keep in mind that a car parked on the road regularly, even when one does have permission, is cause for people to wonder just what is going on! I have found that a slow stop and go in the truck with a pair of binoculars is all I need to assess the status of my traps. And it is quick, doesn't require parking, getting out of the truck and walking a ways to do a check. Thus a field loaded with commercial hives surrounded by a fence line of trees in the road right-of-way certainly seems like a likely spot for a trap. Although I had high hopes last spring/summer, the outcome was zero swarms as I mentioned above. Hope you have better luck!


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Beekeeping is local , so are laws.

The fee in a right of way, even the road bed, belongs to the landowner. There is no right to put a trap in a right of way. The soil, the trees, the bees all belong to the landowner.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> .... public lands....... are a good alternative..


Be cautious about public lands.
You don't want to set out traps all over just willy-nilly - someone may come after you.

Public lands are subject to the laws and rules of the admin the runs those lands.
For example, I get a written permission (email) from the county admin to put up my traps in the county parks. 
There are rules attached to the permission too.

My own city did not give me the permission to setup traps in the city parks.
If I still do it and they catch me - there will be trouble I'd rather avoid.

Then, there is the state-wide DNR regulations about hunting, trapping, foraging that may apply too.

In all, I like anymore just having traps around my bee yards and call it done. 
Less hassle - swarms still come the same.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Saltybee said:


> Beekeeping is local , so are laws.
> 
> The fee in a right of way, even the road bed, belongs to the landowner. There is no right to put a trap in a right of way. The soil, the trees, the bees all belong to the landowner.


I think you are confusing a right of way with an easement. Typically, the state or county maintains the right of way and owns the timber which might be located on it. It is public land. An easment on the other hand is owned by the landowner and provides access to other properties or utilities.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

No, not confused at all. 

Do not know about Virginia nor Utah. My local is Maine. 
Sometimes the fee is with the Gov. , sometimes the landowner, can vary parcel by parcel on the same road. Ownership to trees , soil and bees only comes with a deed. Often the true owner to the road bed has been dead for a hundred years or more.

Deed to the side of the road is sloppy. You own to where you own, subject to a road easement.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I guess the best thing is to check local laws. My knowledge is limited to Wisconsin and Virginia, the only states in which I have owned property outside of a subdivision.


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## NorthMaine (Oct 27, 2016)

Check local laws AND deeds. In Maine technically it is illegal to own to the low water mark, but some deeds were done when the law didn't exist and have been upheld in court. They may own to the low water mark whereas your deed may not. Not everything is cut and dried as it may seem.

Personally, just go talk to the neighbors and let them know that bees naturally reproduce and that you are trying to prevent bees from taking up residence in their attic and you are doing a public service. If you word it so that it benefits them rather than you, you may get both permission and a friendly call when the bees start hanging around. Amazing how well being nice works. And if they don't want you there, they most likely would have been the ones who would have torn it down/thrown it away anyways.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Actually a few deeds extend beyond the low water mark, those are a lot less tested. Then there are those based upon Native deeds as well Kings Grants; " all the fishes and animals". Spelling and wording off, but that is the gist of it.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

The streams I float you're allowed to set up camp along the stream as long as you stay below the "normal" high water mark; landowner may own to the center of the stream but the public has limited access for use of a public stream. Technically, my deed says I own to the center of the road but the county maintains the road and a 15' right of way on either side. Lots of variances in the local laws and regulations.


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## gklagan (Feb 7, 2015)

Most of Swain County NC is federal land of one kind or another. I called the federal authorities and they'd never gotten a swarm trapping request. NC doesn't have an established season for bee trapping but they gathered my contact information and issued me a permit for the locations I'd identified anyway. They asked me to put a name and phone # on each trap I put up and to let them know when I put them up and took them down. The permits stated I had to have the permit on me at all times that I was on the land dealing with the traps. Collecting a trap after dark I got stopped by a sheriff's deputy. After some loud clear communication and slow deliberate movements I showed him the permit and then we had a nice chat about bee keeping. 

If you want to trap on federal land get the permit. Also, probably start working on that permission a month in advance because the request caused some confusion.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

gklagan said:


> NC doesn't have an established season for bee trapping but they gathered my contact information and issued me a permit for the locations I'd identified anyway.


If one asks permission for a 'swarm trap' in our part of the world, first question would be 'are you a licensed trapper?' Next would be 'When is the season for trapping honeybees'.

Much better off to use different verbiage. Tell them you want to set up a 'catch box' as a public service for re-homing errant bee swarms to help prevent them from entering the eaves of people's homes.


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## rick54 (May 8, 2014)

Greg, I believe the mistake everyone makes is referring to these boxes as swarm TRAPS. You should rather refer to them as "swarm control or swarm nesting boxes". A trap is something that detains something against its will, which these boxes do not do. In fact, you are promoting the existence of the honey bee as a valuable pollinator. Every state that allows the trapping of furbearing animals requires a licenses. The same can be said for hunting licenses and fishing licenses. Hunting, fishing and trapping of furbearing animals is to bring about a foreseeable end for personal gain, not promoting its existence! If you are promoting the existence of the honeybee by giving it proper housing, how can that be construed as trapping? Do you need a license to put up a bird house or a wood duck nesting box in a marsh? I believe the error is in referring to it as a "trap" which is in itself a negative connotation, rather than a positive one. Just my thoughts.


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## rick54 (May 8, 2014)

grozzie, I like your line of thinking! I should clarify also that my comment above wasn't directed at Greg, but rather to gklagan.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

rick54 said:


> Greg, I believe the mistake everyone makes is referring to these boxes as swarm TRAPS.


Gotta agree with that - great line of thinking. "Swam Rescue Boxes" - gives a totally different perspective.
LJ


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

I'll pop in here with my 2 cents worth regarding ethics...
It seems to me that it would be somewhat unethical and if not that, at least unfriendly to place swarm traps anywhere near another beek's yards without asking. One may not realize that the yard owner has their own traps out for unfortunate swarms. Perhaps your traps are more enticing to a swarm and will land in yours. Without yours, they may have landed in the yard owners. 
Yes, I do realize that it's all a crap shoot. But in a world where more and more folks aren't getting along, it just seems we beeks should be partnering and working together more.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

There are no unspoken swarm trap ethics that I care to be aware of.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

SaltyBee, I concur. We pay taxes to the center line of the road, the "right of way" is for the county /state to place a road for travel of cars etc. Climing up a tree on my fence line to place a trap is not something the right of way gives you. I see no reason why you would not ask the land owner if you can do the deed .

Gray Goose


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## Girl Next Door Honey (Jan 4, 2016)

I always have better luck attracting swarms in old equipment vs. hanging up traps. Plus, then you don't have to transfer them. Is this a local phenomenon?


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## The Everything Bee Vacuum (May 1, 2018)

People are odd. Some guys are offended if you put a trap within a mile of their bee yard, even if you bee yard is 1/2 mile away. Land 'ownership' doesn't matter to them
. Others don't care. One fellow I know wouldn't get the bees that moved into his neighbor's cat house for a year, I finally removed it. Another lady begged me to put a swarm trap by her house... neighbor's bee yard was 1/2 mile away, but I removed 6 colonies from her house that year! They kept coming, one after another after another.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Girl Next Door Honey said:


> I always have better luck attracting swarms in old equipment vs. hanging up traps. Plus, then you don't have to transfer them. Is this a local phenomenon?


I do not think it is a local Phenomenon. I trap with a Old single 10 frame deep or 2 -8 frame mediums. The older boxes heavily propolized seem to work the best. 1 Squirt of Swarm Commander on the inside of the lid. Bees prefer a place where they think other bees have lived, the smells are there, they seem to be scent/pheromone driven when looking for a new home. Even the Pheromone of queen-less can be attractive.
Normally in the spring I have several Supers available and or dead outs. I put out as many as I have time for. As I start splits and need the supers I reel them back in. I am In Norther Michigan , by the 4th of July I generally go get the Traps back, to either use or store. Later than that tends to have bugs take them over. As well I want the first primary swarm from an over wintered queen/colony somewhere. After the 4th of july the swarms can be from some ones southern package they did not give enough room to. No Offence to Southern bees but I do believe in Locality and local stock. 

happy collecting

GG


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

We began to experiment with swarm traps a while back. We began to catch 5-10 swarms per day and I began to feel guilty...real guilty.

I posted about my feelings of guilt here at beesource. I received a number of different answers, but one beekeeper said something that freed me from the guilt I was feeling. He basically said this: Look, if you are catching massive numbers of swarms, then someone is not taking care of their honeybees. He mentioned that poor management of colonies can cause lots of swarming. He then said, look at it this way: if no one catches the swarms and places them in nice homes, then they are at the mercy of the elements, weather, and predators. He said since I am providing 5 star Hilton Hotels for these swarms, I should not feel any guilt at all.

His words made a lot of sense to me and I have never felt guilt capturing swarms since reading his post.

We caught all our swarms on our own property and personally, I would not feel comfortable placing swarm traps on private property without the property owner's permission.

I have often entertained the idea of placing swarm traps on public property, but my biggest concern is getting sued by someone if I caught a swarm and then the swarm hurt someone.

Hope this helps!


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

JMHO:

Respect private property. Don’t harm the natural environment. Otherwise, trap away and obey lawful commands.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

soarwitheagles said:


> We began to experiment with swarm traps a while back. We began to catch 5-10 swarms per day and I began to feel guilty...real guilty.
> 
> I posted about my feelings of guilt here at beesource. I received a number of different answers, but one beekeeper said something that freed me from the guilt I was feeling. He basically said this: Look, if you are catching massive numbers of swarms, then someone is not taking care of their honeybees. He mentioned that poor management of colonies can cause lots of swarming. He then said, look at it this way: if no one catches the swarms and places them in nice homes, then they are at the mercy of the elements, weather, and predators. He said since I am providing 5 star Hilton Hotels for these swarms, I should not feel any guilt at all.
> 
> ...


soarwitheagles
So what techniques are you using to get 5 -10 swarms a day? I would be good with 5 a week. How many of what kind of trap?
trap setups? etc. Be nice to catch a few to replace losses.

GG


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

Gray Goose said:


> soarwitheagles
> So what techniques are you using to get 5 -10 swarms a day? I would be good with 5 a week. How many of what kind of trap?
> trap setups? etc. Be nice to catch a few to replace losses.
> 
> GG


Hi Gray Goose~

Nice screen name!

I am a total newbie compared to most people here, so please take what I share with a grain of salt...

Also, a number of people say I am putting in WAY TOO MUCH lure. And most of those people combined have a few centuries more experience than I.

So, with that being said, here is what we do:

1. We pray, asking for a miraculous catch [Luke 5, John 21]
2. We use old 10 frame or 8 frame deep boxes [we read in numerous places that the size of the trap is very important].
3. We install 4 frames of super old comb [no honey, no pollen, so that equates to no robber bees, but, rather, only scout bees].
4. We drill a 1.5 inch hole in the front center of the box and staple 1/2 inch hardware on the inside of the hole [this prevents birds, mice, etc. from entering the box].
5. We install a 2x4x18 inch plank with a 1 inch hole on the back side of the box so we can hang the trap easily from 10 inch nails hammered into trees.
6. We apply 4 types of bait/lure in every trap: Swarm Commander, Lemon grass oil, Bait lure and a weird wax bait, these last two items we purchase from Ebay.
7. We spray a couple of sprays in the hole, one spray to the top of the inside lid, then some bait/lure on a cotton ball that is inserted inside a plastic bag and pinned to the back side of the inside of the trap. Keep the bag open slightly.
8. We hang the traps from Eucalyptus trees, approximately 6-8 feet off the ground [I used to hang them 10-16 feet high, but after experiencing several near falls, we relocated all traps so we can service them while standing on the ground.
9. We do our very best to collect the captured swarms at night and within a 24-48 hour period. Last year, we left several swarms in traps for over two weeks and most had filled the traps with massive amounts of wild comb, honey, pollen and eggs/larvae. This made them quite messy, quite heavy, and much more time consuming to transfer them into boxes. Some swarms even left the trap after a couple of weeks.
10. This year, we committed to immediately treat every swarm with ProVap OA during the transfer process, when there is no brood.

I will do my best to post some pics...

Hope this helps!

Soar

Ok, here's some pics....


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

And here's a pic of the result of leaving a swarm too long in the trap!

Beautiful, but messy to clean up!

Oh, by the way....

During the peak of the swarm season, we often would see, hear, or catch 10 swarms per day here. Not sure why. We decided to rename the ranch to "Swarm Ally."

We would place 5 or more swarm traps out at midnight with fresh lure, and every trap had a swarm before noon the next day.

Our problem for the last two years is we did not have enough boxes to place the swarms in. This year, we are finally ready! We have over 100 new boxes built, painted and ready to go. This week we are finishing up the lids and the bottom boards. Also, this week, we placed nearly 10 swarm traps up in trees. Scouts did not touch any trap until two days ago. Today, two traps were being hammered. Now, our goal is to hang 30 traps each day during the peak of the swarm season. We hope to assemble and complete 200 more boxes very soon. Gotta be ready!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> soarwitheagles
> So what techniques are you using to get 5 -10 swarms a day? ............
> GG


Last year I commented on this, GG.

I still think SWE has struck a good location nearby of a almond bee thieves' storage of their stolen hives.
Why?
Because 
1) allegedly there are no official and large bee AND (at the same time) neglected yards nearby to release SO MANY swarms so quickly 
2) bees do not migrated like wild gees an mass - cross-continent AND all along the same well defined routes (realistically, these bees are all coming from a nearby source or sources)
3) bees allegedly are of all imaginable varieties (again, a yard of stolen cross-national bee boxes will give you that)

Well, it is logical to assume there is a large, unofficial (hidden, in fact) bee dump nearby where people are not able to do much work (like swarm prevention and maintenance).
Imagine large stacks on single bee boxes hidden in some warehouse or behind a tall fence.
No one hardly does anything there during the daytime - because the bees are stolen - they are need not to be known about.

What do the bees do when left in single too long? Well, they swarm.

FYI, this is all in South Cal.
I don't think you gonna get much useful advice outside of what you already know about swarm trapping.
SWE does no magic - the location IS the magic.

Yes - many things sound crazy (until they become common knowledge).


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Thanks for the tips. Swarm alley is correct. Great you can get so many swarms. the homes in that area must be loaded with swarms trying to get into cavities. here in Northern Mich I do good to get 3 or 4 on 10 Traps for the month. Thanks for the reply I'll look at the lures on Ebay. I also use a single 10 frame deep, I am transitioning to mediums so I have some around and they are fairly well propolized.

GG


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

GregV said:


> Last year I commented on this, GG.
> 
> I still think SWE has struck a good location nearby of a almond bee thieves' storage of their stolen hives.
> Why?
> ...


Mr. Greg,

I still feel your statements have a strong element of conspiracy theory!

Let's not forget the other factors that I did not mention:

1. The government also runs a small area 51 a couple of hundred yards from our property.
2. On the other side of the street, we often see green little men that appear to have antennas instead of ears on their head and they live in weird looking igloos.
3. There is a chemical company just down the street experimenting with new chemicals and one day we actually saw a 27 ft. long queen bee flying over their R & D building. If I am not mistaken, this large queen bee was actually smiling at us as it flew by and I think it was because there were no varroa mites on it!
4. When we eat honey from the the swarm hives, we noticed our skinning beginning to turn a bright green and I think I even noticed weird antenna like things beginning to grow from where I ears were.

Whatever you do, DON'T tell anyone, we do not wanna attract undo attention just in case the colonies were stolen from a different planet!


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I dunno, sounds plausible. Getting back to the ethical side of things, I think it is unethical for someone to park so many unmanaged hives near Soar's swarm traps. Just look at all the extra work they are causing him!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> I dunno, sounds plausible. Getting back to the ethical side of things, I think it is unethical for someone to park so many unmanaged hives near Soar's swarm traps. Just look at all the extra work they are causing him!


Heck, I wanna know of such park of stolen bees.
I'd be trapping like crazy myself. 
But no luck.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

soarwitheagles said:


> Mr. Greg,.... !


Look, did I blame you for something?

Keep doing what you have been doing.
I'd be trapping like crazy too - no questions asked.
Unsure why get irritated.
Take it as a joke, it is fine.

But I don't know any other good explanation.
I do not imagine every house in the area has bees to swarm - now THIS is not possible.
What is for sure - they do steal almond bees in California.
Stolen bees must be parked somewhere before they are re-sold. Now that is simple enough idea.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Soar,

I would be happy to lighten your burden and bring about 30 traps out there to save you some of that work!:thumbsup:


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

GregV said:


> Look, did I blame you for something?
> 
> Keep doing what you have been doing.
> I'd be trapping like crazy too - no questions asked.
> ...


Greg,

No you did not blame me for anything, even though I am sure there could be lots to blame in my life. 

Just thought I would have some fun with you and hopefully get a few constipated beekeepers to laugh and loosen up a little. Prune juice is no longer easily available due to it being aliens staple diet.

Also, it is a proven fact that beekeepers are one of the main members of society that help with constipation [suppositories are often coated with wax].

Cheers!


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Charlie, you REALLY want to beat Ollie again, don't you? But, setting boxes near a known swarm factory is like shooting fish in a bucket, not very sporting.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

JWPalmer said:


> Charlie, you REALLY want to beat Ollie again, don't you? But, setting boxes near a known swarm factory is like shooting fish in a bucket, not very sporting.


I think you’re confused on the nature of our competition. Check out Ollie’s thread: “Can our friendship survive this competition”


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Not confused at all, you know the saying, " all's fair in love and war". Just be careful, if I were Ollie and wanted to win, I might consider buying packages to put in my traps.

Sorry for the thread drift.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> I might consider buying packages to put in my traps..


LOL!!!


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Ollie is smart where we are doing Mano a Mano competitions. He brands his frames with his ag number so I can’t switch out the frames if he lands one first. Whenever I beat him, he demands a video confirmation with the top cover off!


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## Nicksotherhoney (Jun 10, 2017)

Thanks for all the input. I will keep everyone posted on my swarm traps. I enjoy all the banter too.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

Charlie B said:


> I think you’re confused on the nature of our competition. Check out Ollie’s thread: “Can our friendship survive this competition”


Charlie,

Quick question...

Last year we caught our first swarm of the year on March 5th. As you know, lots more rain this year...

Scout bees just started hitting the traps this last week for the first time, so we are seeing a 3 week delay in swarms here.

Is it the same there?

Thanks,

Soar


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