# Is our precious almonds killing our livestock?



## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

I read the article. I missed the part where the farmer was concocting their own ****tail. Please explain that part to me. Thanks.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

You ask therefore you shall receive, and I quote:

"Mussen says that almond growers are combining them along with substances called adjuvants—which are used to enhance the performance of pesticides—and then spraying the resulting ****tail on crops. "It now seems that when you roll these three things together, it has very negative consequences on the bees," Mussen told me. "

from the above article.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Generally speaking when a farmer buys a box of chemical, the box will come with one or more jugs of chemical and one or more jugs of adjuvant. You mix up the chemical in water first then you add the adjuvant. Then you keep mixing them in the sprayer tank. The farmer is not coming up with his "own" ****tail.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I guess there is a part of all this I am not understanding. So even if the farmer incorrectly mixes the chemical ****tail its still Ok?


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

As a farmer I can tell you that I pay a lot of money for these chemicals to work. I am mixing them exactly as the label says to ensure my best chance of the chemicals doing their job. And if they don't work I can get the chemical rep out to look. If you don't do it by the label then you have no recourse. Farmers are not making up their own mixes.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Are you an Almond Farmer?


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

No I am a grain farmer.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I understand your point. However stating that all farmers bide by the rules, is sort of like saying all beekeepers don't use Tactik to treat their colonies but rather use the new strips.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Haraga said:


> Generally speaking when a farmer buys a box of chemical, the box will come with one or more jugs of chemical and one or more jugs of adjuvant. You mix up the chemical in water first then you add the adjuvant. Then you keep mixing them in the sprayer tank. The farmer is not coming up with his "own" ****tail.


You just described in detail exactly how he would likely have done so. and then conclude that in fact he did not? Notice he did not say this grower concocted his own ****tail He said growers have done so. I would agree. 

Let's see, let's take something that we know perfectly well is an environmental hazard and make it more potent.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

On some fruit applications, growers will mix multiple compounds in the same tank. My understanding is that it is perfectly legal to do so as long as the label is followed for each individual application. For example, a fungicide can be put in the same tank with an insecticide and applied together in one pass of the sprayer, provided the label for each allows application at that given time. Individually, the compounds may not be the best for bees, but together they may be far worse.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

And I understand your concerns. The article makes it sound like the farmer is making up his own concoction. Did I read that right? I can only assume that when they tested these products for bee damage that they would have tested with the adjuvant mixed in also. The adjuvant comes in the same box as the chemical usually. Generally the more water per acre that is applied, the more adjuvant is used.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Hay, I have an Idea. Why not stop providing pollinators to these nasty old environment destroying farmers who feed the nation. That will teach them, and save them from paying all that dirty money acquired at the expense of mother earth to the wholesome beekeepers.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

JSL said:


> On some fruit applications, growers will mix multiple compounds in the same tank. My understanding is that it is perfectly legal to do so as long as the label is followed for each individual application. For example, a fungicide can be put in the same tank with an insecticide and applied together in one pass of the sprayer, provided the label for each allows application at that given time. Individually, the compounds may not be the best for bees, but together they may be far worse.


I think that is a possibility and it should be easy to prove. All they need to do is test the registered tank mixes.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I did read it as farmers making their own concoction. I do not completely understand the chemical part of row cropping, however it is alarming as Almonds have been known to be a good pollination crop which looks like it might be headed in the same direction as cranberries or worse our veggies.

I have sent bees to the almonds in the past and did a bit this year too, but now I am wondering if I should risk sending an entire semi out to be decimated by the farmers and what they are spraying on the almonds.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Tenbears said:


> Hay, I have an Idea. Why not stop providing pollinators to these nasty old environment destroying farmers who feed the nation. That will teach them, and save them from paying all that dirty money acquired at the expense of mother earth to the wholesome beekeepers.


That's a pretty comical spin on the entire topic. However you wouldn't be laughing if you sent 10 semi loads out and had 9 semi loads come back dead.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

My bees always come back looking way better than I send them. This year they gained a nice amount of honey and loads of pollen. Way better than the bees that got to stay in east Texas. This year was so cold in east Texas and then the jasmine came on strong as ever. Plus all the hives that stayed in Texas had to be fed and I should have fed them more. So for us we gained on every level by sending the bees out.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Like Haraga has been mentioning, tank mixes are just as such. Be it detrimental to the bees or not, these "****tails" are refereed to farmers as tank mixes. Some chemicals can be tank mixed, some can't. Its all based on manufacturer recommendations. Some chemicals cant be mixed as it neutralizes their effectiveness. 

Adjuvants are the farmers best friend, not so much for beekeepers...

It amazes me how it "seems" from this side of the issue, how Almond farmers tend to spray without any consideration to the health of the bees they need to pollinate their crop. Or perhaps its the wrong impression.?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Ian I think you are right on with that. I work closely with a farmer in Ga pollinating his berries. I know he has a ****tail (fungicide, pesticide) that he sprays on the berries. When it comes time for the ****tail spraying he does it carefully as possible to avoid killing my bees. It almost sounds as if the the almond growers are not taking the care needed to help protect our bees.

The big concern for all is adequate pollination. Adequate pollination is going to build our colonies and provide the grower with the best fruit set. If they kill off our hives everyone loses and possible future pollination contracts could be jeopardized.

babybee:
I certainly don't send out the number of colonies that most beekeepers send out, but yes I agree in the past when my bees went out of Oklahoma and returned to east Texas they looked great coming back and so did the commercial operation's bees, I was worked with at the time.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

From Dr. Mussen's news letter.

Experiments conducted on the fungicides alone and in many cases the IGRs alone do not appear to elicit the damage that is seen when they are combined, perhaps including a newer adjuvant. This season the losses were of such magnitude (an unof-ficially estimated 80,000 colonies) that representatives of EPA visited to observe the damage. Below are images from Dr. Gordon Wardell of Para-mount Farming, of layers of dead bees on the ground, newly emerged, wingless bees pulled from the combs by other bees, and bees that failed in their attempts to emerge as adults.
It seems that a combination of exposures of colonies to truly bee-toxic insecticides, followed by delayed effects of exposure to fungicide/IGR mixes during bloom, really set the bees way behind. The problem proved so severe that a number of beekeepers stated that they were never returning to California for almond pollin-ation. That is not a good thing, since we really don’t have too many colonies coming to almonds as it is


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Flyer Jim said:


> From Dr. Mussen's news letter.
> 
> Experiments conducted on the fungicides alone and in many cases the IGRs alone do not appear to elicit the damage that is seen when they are combined, perhaps including a newer adjuvant. This season the losses were of such magnitude (an unof-ficially estimated 80,000 colonies) that representatives of EPA visited to observe the damage. Below are images from Dr. Gordon Wardell of Para-mount Farming, of layers of dead bees on the ground, newly emerged, wingless bees pulled from the combs by other bees, and bees that failed in their attempts to emerge as adults.
> It seems that a combination of exposures of colonies to truly bee-toxic insecticides, followed by delayed effects of exposure to fungicide/IGR mixes during bloom, really set the bees way behind. The problem proved so severe that a number of beekeepers stated that they were never returning to California for almond pollin-ation. That is not a good thing, since we really don’t have too many colonies coming to almonds as it is


Not a good thing???? I myself an looking forward to any price increase brought on by this situation.. Not happy for the beeks who got snookered but keeping these winged puppies alive is a lot of work, time, money, and energy and the payback on $180 almonds isn't adequate to entice more fools like myself to bump their numbers up. Although we grow some of our own almonds I am a beekeeper at heart first of all... The dudes growing the nuts still drive better pickups than the majority of the beeks so all a little price increase is not going to kill anyone on their end. Whats is going to do? Reduce the number of gold plated lug nuts on their 17th pickup? If i had the balls and the brains to put the rest of our land into almonmds a few years back I would can all but a thousand hives and spend the rest of my time polishing pickup number 5..... Ya right... Just another take on it...


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## MaydayMalone (Jan 19, 2012)

BMAC said:


> That's a pretty comical spin on the entire topic. However you wouldn't be laughing if you sent 10 semi loads out and had 9 semi loads come back dead.


BMAC....you sent 10 semi loads of bees to California??? Wow! 9 came back dead?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

No and I did not claim to have sent 10 semi loads. It's a realistic but hypothetical comment.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Honey-4-All said:


> Not a good thing???? I myself an looking forward to any price increase brought on by this situation.. Not happy for the beeks who got snookered but keeping these winged puppies alive


I love your twist on it. Yes we all understand it's work to keep the little buggers alive and healthy. Imagine what 2015 Almond prices will be if 80 or 100K less hives went to Ca for pollination? Make me want to send all I can muster, but then again at the same time it makes me think maybe I should get into commercial NUC production. 

Maybe I will continue to get wet feet and only send what I feel I can stomach losing.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

BMAC said:


> Maybe I will continue to get wet feet and only send what I feel I can stomach losing.



Now that's the definition of PRUDENT!!!!


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

I think this issue of pristin came up last year, Randy Oliver has commented on it either in an article or bee-l not sure. But if I remember correctly pristin is a growth inhibitor?
They suspect that this is what is causing all the problems with people raising queens after being in almonds also. I'm going from memory and don't have time to go searching, haven't ate yet and I get grouchy when I'm hungry as my signature states. But there are a bunch of people looking at the problem. That's why alot of the beeks complain of brood dying etc.
if i get a link I;ll post it.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

I can't find the exact info put here are some of the discussions on bee-l last year.
http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...1=BEE-L&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match;Match;Matches&z=4

BASF currently has a bee-savvy research chemist from Germany stationed in
the almonds trying to solve possible issues with their fungicide Pristine.


http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...1=BEE-L&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match;Match;Matches&z=4

The effects of sublethal pesticide exposure on queen emergence and virus titers
were examined. Queen rearing colonies were fed pollen with chlorpyrifos (CPF) alone
and with CPF and the fungicide Pristine®. We chose this
combination of pesticides because we commonly detect CPF in almond pollen collected by honey
bees, and Pristine® is often sprayed.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...1=BEE-L&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match;Match;Matches&z=4

feel that we should be working together with the pesticide
companies--they are going out of their way to work cooperatively with
beekeepers. BASF met with us at the recent California Queen Breeders
meeting, and is paying for one their chemists from Germany to spend three
months in California to try to get to the root of the Pristine question.


http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...1=BEE-L&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match;Match;Matches&z=4

For those who may not have been around last year, insect growth inhibitors
were found to be a part of a labeled "fungicide" sprayed during almond
bloom. So the beekeeper might think that only a fungicide was being
sprayed, but the manufacturers are giving the growers more bang for their
buck, at the expense of bees. I know Randy is working on this issue.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

BMAC said:


> I heard that bees did poorly on the Almonds this year. It seems the growers are concocting their own pesticide/fungicide ****tail which is suspect of killing our hives:
> 
> http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2014/04/california-almond-farms-blamed-honeybee-die


This past week I had a guy offer me over $3 a pound for some Buttes I'm siting on. Was at Costco and the Nons were $5 a pound in the 3 lb bag. All I can say is that at the current pricing the growers can afford a lot of dead bees ( 200 plus pollination) and still sit pretty when it comes to change counting time at the end of the year. The risk will be factored into the pricing when next year shows up. If 250 shows up a lot of people will be willing to bet the bank no matter what the risk? Lots of short sighted beeks who need a buck to stay afloat will be willing to put the ladies on the line to keep the wife and the bank happy!!!!


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Yeah, They sure can afford to kill a few hives. I for one try not to have to pay the bank on a monthly basis. That changed this year when I bought a new truck. Hopefully I can pay it off faster than the length of the loan and once again stop making monthly payments. Being it's such a low amount I had to borrow it's easy enough for me to not really worry about it, but the money is still tempting. 

Most likely I will only send out a couple hundred. Who knows I might even send an entire semi load. For certain this has to jack up next years prices on pollination.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

About jacking up the prices. this past year there was a lot of talk about not getting enough bees for the almonds. the growers simply dropped their demand to half of what it usually is due to the drought conditions. this suddenly created a surplus of hives in California. Not a completely accurate description in detail but it is the main idea of what demand can do when supply is not there.

I tried to get a hand full of hives to California and for the most part got ignored. This year I am shooting for two hundred and am getting set up with local folks that have ongoing locations. No horror stories from the folks around here that brought their hives back.


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