# Bee Escape for TBH?



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Yes it a bad idea to shake a full TB comb of honey, especially if its new wax. 

I hold the TB in the center with my left and brush with my right.

Please let us know how it works out. However my .02 would be your building an uncommon item to avoid learning a basic beekeeping skill that will serve you well down the road.


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## Delta 21 (Mar 4, 2016)

I have a spare nuc box I use to put a honeycomb or two in and just let it set up by the entrance while I continue inspecting and closing up. Every now and then give them a puff of smoke. By the time the hive is back together at least half have returned to the hive. I then move this box closer to my shed and set it in the sun close to the shade line and give them another puff. Give them a minute or two. Move the box into the shade. The ones left are full of honey and are too drunk to sting. Standing in the shade I use my turkey feather and brush the last 10 or 20 off into the grass in the sun and get the comb out of sight.


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## Corto (May 29, 2017)

Delta,

Is it a given that the bees on a honeycomb in the nuc will always be able to find their way back to the main hive if close enough? I built a small nuc (never used) and that could be an interesting option to try. You just sit the nuc there with the cover off?

msl,

Understood. I want to learn these standard methods, but I am also a tinkerer.


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## Delta 21 (Mar 4, 2016)

The nuc box I use was salvaged from a Styrofoam cooler I chopped down and dummied up the inside to match the profile. Its a little big for a nuc. It holds 7 or 8 combs and thats way too many for 2 combs of bees with a queen cell from a split, to defend against wax moths. My split might not make it. I should of reduced their inside space with a follower board, but thats another story.

I have just taken the idea that they would return home from the way you do a hive shakeout if you have to re queen and cant find her. In Extreme cases you shake out the entire hive and put it back where it was with a queen excluder on the entrance and they will all fly back home and the queen can be found on the excluder in the evening when everyone is back home. 

My be yard is fenced in and if I work the hives early enough the shade of my bee shed is in the perfect spot. I think thats the biggest help of all. I learned that evasion tactic last year when the ladies liked to chase me all over the back yard before I went into the house. 9 times out of 10 when I zig-zag just right and duck into the shade of the big pear tree, they would feel successful in their chase and return to base. A little (A LOT) more finesse and gentleness in my bee handling keeps the alert fighters from even launching in the first place (I'm getting better.).

I set it right at the front by the entrance. I use 3 or 4 empty bars to keep it from being wide open and make sure the sun isnt hitting the comb directly, but its not sealed or covered. When I move combs from the hive to create working space, most of the bees stay on the comb, but if they want to fly around the entrance is right there. When I smoke, I only smoke the entrance while Im inspecting. Smoking where you are working drives the bees away from where you are working and makes it easier, UNTIL you start getting to the brood nest and the front of the hive. :no: Smoking your working space drove the ladies towards the front of the hive, and the last 6 or 8 combs of your inspection is going to be loaded with bees with no where to go but in the air. (This is when the fun stops!) Working calmly and only smoking the entrance keeps the bees evenly spread out through the hive and makes it a much more enjoyable experience for everyone. With a little experience you will be able to lift a bar out of the hive with out disturbing them too much. When closing up I may smoke a little if they wont clear out between the bars but using the 1/4" spacers to "help" them works good and I usually dont have to smoke at all once I hit the spacers. I start the 1/4" spacers at the 13th bar. All of the die hards that cling to the honeycomb have been gorging themselves since the beginning. They can barely fly, let alone come after you (usually).


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## Corto (May 29, 2017)

Thanks, Delta. I like this method quite a bit and will try as well.


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## Delta 21 (Mar 4, 2016)

You're welcome and I hope you are successful. This is how I am doing it now and I am still figuring it out.

I have feeders thru the bottom and I am wearing my veil and nitrile gloves just to change out an empty jar for a full one! The ladies are getting protective of their stores and I think it is kind of a dearth right now. Loads of pollen coming in. The Golden Rod flow starts in a few weeks. They pack away winter stores and I can swipe some if I time it right.:shhhh:


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

I'm with msl on this one: I think it is a valuable skill to learn brushing, especially for a single bar or two. You will need to know this to equalize hives later, or to give eggs to a hive with a dead queen. Cleaning off a comb without creating a cloud of angry bees is a TBH-101 skill we all need.

My technique is slightly different from msl, but still the same idea... instead of holding in the middle of the bar I often hold at one end, letting the bar hang down at about 45 degrees into the hive (keeping the comb in line with the top bar!). I might even rest the lower part of the bar on the hive for support... then I'm not supporting any weight at all. I'm brushing the bees the shortest path off the comb, which is usually toward a corner or side, and not the bottom. Short light sweeps work best for me... long slow sweeps just roll and anger bees. try some different techniques and you will quickly find one which knocks the bees down with little fuss.

I also find that there are fewer bees farther from the broodnest. I will sometimes move a wonky-comb honey bar to the very end, and then harvest it 3 or 4 days later when it only has half as many bees on it.


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## Corto (May 29, 2017)

I appreciate all the advice given.

One thing I have seen, and this deserves another thread: managing one vs. multiple hives. I currently have one hive. A lot will depend on whether it makes it through the winter, but I have precious little space to dedicate to a second hive. I don't see many people on these discussion sites with only one hive. Everything I read seems to indicate that next year, if they make it, they will completely fill the hive and likely throw off a swarm. I am fine with that (there are others who have commented I should try and prevent it, and others saying it is good to add to the feral bee population this way).

I'm interested in managing one hive, and 50/50 chance I could fit two. It seems I would be relatively unique only having one hive. Everyone else is always doing splits, etc to increase their number of hives. Or using one to bolster the other.

Any thoughts on keeping only one hive?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Keep more then one, at the VERY least a nuc maintained as a nuc. The people who only keep one hive tend to drop out of the hobby, witch is why you don't hear form them much, losses add up 
The main advantage of a KTBH is the cost to build one, the disadvantage is they are swarmy and under produce compared to a lang, this leads to more then one hive becoming the common solution when you are presented with cells. this way you can get more honey, and more hives means you are better able to resist being wiped out in a single winter 
If you don't have space for more then one hive, I would say letting swarms happen in your area is a poor choice. Bees are livestock that can damage neighbors houses and create other problems. Not to mention the loss of honey crop when they swarm and the chance they won't re-queen them self leaving you high and dry if you only have one hive.


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## Corto (May 29, 2017)

Oh, well. I will have all winter to build another hive, and work on convincing my wife. I understand all the reasons for at least two, for sure. The whole swarming thing is what made me hesitate during my reading of beekeeping early this year when I first got into it. That worried me more than all the diseases and pests talked about. Then I found out generally 50% or so don't make it through winter.

Maybe I should have picked a different hobby...


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Here is something to consider: if you build your second hive big enough, you could house 2 in it. I take it you have a kenyan TBH? If you build it 50% bigger, then you have room for a nuc on the other side. Someone here (ruthies bees?) has mentioned that when there is a queen on one side and not the other, you can end up with too many bees on the queenright side. It's hard to build a bee-proof, air-tight-ish divider.

Come spring (cross fingers), once there are drones flying, and just after dandelions are at full bloom... if you split your tbh, you can avoid swarming. I don't recommend triggering a swarm - it's lost bees and a bit scary if you have never experienced how docile the bees are. They fill up a quarter acre with flying bees, then fly away faster than you can run.... but they are not agressive at all. 

Having another hive around, even one you don't intend to use for the full season, is really helpful for splitting. In my area, a split has a 50/50 chance of ending up with a laying queen - she sometimes doesn't come back. If you do 2 splits, one on each side of the 2nd TBH, then you have a much better chance at ending up with a laying queen. Then, sell your tbh nucs! There are laws and stuff probably about that - but where there is a will, there is a way. 

If you end up with a 2nd hive, and only want one, you will be able to recombine them after swarm season. Pick the queen you like better, pinch the other, or sell her. 

I definitely advise having an empty hive or nuc hanging around, just in case a swarm shows up too....or queen cells!


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

I have two hives on one long stand... so they really don't take up much more room than one hive would. I ended up with a lang due to someone at a bee club talking me into it, but the lang is currently empty. so, for me: 2 hives.

For me personally, that first year I was pretty inept, and the jury is still out on how good I've become. I have two hives mostly because I know that I could easily kill the queen in one of them just by having a single moment of inattention. So, I have two because it doubles my chances I can get one to survive through the winter.

I inspect both most every Saturday it isn't raining, and I can do both in a bit less than an hour. I think by the time you suit up and light your smoker, you already have 15 minutes invested... doing another hive just takes 10 or 15 more minutes.

But: you should keep as many hives as you are comfortable keeping. I'm staying in the "less than 4 range" until I get a bit more experience, and I currently have 2. I would love eventually to have an outyard with 10 in it, but I'm at least a couple of years away from that.

the most important thing you said was "convince my wife". If you don't have her buy-in, forget everything people here tell you!  (The AvatarMom runs a tight ship!)


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## Corto (May 29, 2017)

Two hives side by side, with entrances at opposite ends, so about 8 feet apart, would be doable. Also convenient if right next to each other.

You'll not be surprised that since the install in late May, I have not seen the queen. Since mid June I have only inspected to the end of the brood area to add bars. I have not opened up the brood area for 2 months. I lean toward Phil Chandler's book notes and videos where he doesn't think full inspections are needed, esp. in the first year, if all is looking good, which it has been. 

I'm not going to call it laziness, and not going to call it scared either. Except a bit worried like you mention, the one thing that would happen if I did inspect all the way in, I'd probably kill or drop the queen to the ground by accident. I think it's more of leave them alone, everything looks good. When I do look in and see workers and drones, I have yet to see a mite, and what I thought were SHBs do not have the telltale barbell antennas and were just random beetles (I think). Either way the hive is strong, the honey is being packed away, and there are orientation flights basically every day.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> I have yet to see a mite


And you won't in most cases. Do yourself a HUGE favor and go do a mite roll NOW.
Craigslisting I picked up 10 sets of langs this winter/spring for dirt cheap (less then I could build a KTBH) Almost all ex new beekeepers, most had just lost there 2nd package in a row and we done, just wanted the hive and its bad memory's gone. To a tee the story was just about the same


> My bees were doing great, they were strong and packing in the honey, then in early fall some "bad" robber bees came and took all the honey and killed them


take it for what its worth, classic mite kill.

I am not a fan of staying out of the brood nest for new beeks. If you don't know what the bees are up to you don't know what steps to take to manage them suit your goals as an example if they swarm, and your not in there to know, you won't be there to cull cells to keep them from possibly tossing casts and depopulation of the hive cuting in to you all ready limited KTBH harvest
More importantly you are missing out on them teaching you! Ie in your in there and you see them making swarm prep, you can look at why(honey bound, brood nest back filled, feeling out of space (even if there are still open bars in the back),etc) it may be be too late to change there minds this year, but next year you will be better able to mange them.


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## Corto (May 29, 2017)

msl, I completely understand your viewpoint.

I am coming to this from 3 months experience and 6 months of reading. I want to follow the TBH treatment free direction. But, of course, I say that sitting in what seems to be a good position. For all I know they could be overrun with mites, and I will lose the hive shortly. Or have some other disease, etc kill the hive because I wasn't inspecting well enough.

All I can say is one way or the other it will be a learning experience, and is probably something I am going to have to go through the pain of before I consider changing my direction.

As an example, a few weeks ago I was all about wanting to inspect naturally without smoke, and just use a water spray with some mint in it. Until I got stung 3 times with them chasing me across the yard. I now use smoke and see the benefits easily.


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

Corto said:


> Two hives side by side, with entrances at opposite ends, so about 8 feet apart, would be doable. Also convenient if right next to each other.
> 
> You'll not be surprised that since the install in late May, I have not seen the queen. Since mid June I have only inspected to the end of the brood area to add bars. I have not opened up the brood area for 2 months. I lean toward Phil Chandler's book notes and videos where he doesn't think full inspections are needed, esp. in the first year, if all is looking good, which it has been.
> 
> I'm not going to call it laziness, and not going to call it scared either.


I don't want to give the wrong impression about my work ethic, and I'm certainly not judging. I don't meet the "without sin" criteria for that!

Your description is exactly what I have: 2 4 foot TBHs, with entrances at opposite sides (8 feet apart), all on one set up 2x10 boards. When I show up with the smoker, I take off both covers at once, and work my way through.... it is like one gigantic 8 foot hive only half full.

Also, I don't "full inspect" every time, although I try to do so once a month or so. I've been concerned that me breaking the propolis every time I go in just forces them to spend all their time re-gluing the hive every week. I work through all the honey, check for unoccupied frames (a bad thing in my yard) and go maybe one or two frames into the brood nest looking for brood. Then, I'm out: brood is all I want to see most days. About 3 times a summer, I work myself all the way to the entrance; I'm fascinated with those last two bars near the entrance... they are so different from the rest of the hive.

Chandler's book is the bomb: the best TBH book written. I am not quite good enough to do all the comb manipulations he diagrams yet. I'll have a "reverse the brood nest" situation to attend to next Spring with one of my hives... they moved to the back of the hive at some point.

I only keep two because I fear trying to keep one alive. Just a safety net for a newbee. Right now I have a tiny 2 frame nuc as well, so officially I have like 2.2 hives: a crazy August swarm adopted me, and now I have to try and keep these 200 bees alive!.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> All I can say is one way or the other it will be a learning experience


My point is doing a mite count now will teach you what you need to know. Either your bees have the genetics to be TF or they don't, blind faith will not change that, No reason to let old man winter sort it out later when you can still fix things now, and spend the winter researching spending $30 on a new TF queen instead of a new $120+ package come spring 
The strait truth is unless you bought from a sold suppler of TF stock that has been proven in your area the odds are not in your favor, regardless of the hive type you use. 
Don't get blindsided by being blind, going TF means you have to be a better beekeeper and work harder. Your "mint water" example is perfect.. it could work, but you need to be a tai chi master at handling your bees unless its a perfect day. 
On that note Natural beekeeping doesn't exist. Destructive honey hunting is the "natural" state of things with a predator/prey relationship. Your in the US, your keeping a nonnative invasive species in a wooden box. 
Flip side is smoke IS natural, your taking advantage of the bees survival instinct to a natural trigger that has been used by beekeepers to their advantage for over 3,000 years. Too many people are pushing an "every one elce has been wrong forever" marketing niche, standard items are standard for a reason despitet the internet chatter of people trying to sell things


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## Corto (May 29, 2017)

Great comments, msl and AvatarDad. The only piece of info I will add is the person I got the nuc bars from this spring started his business with Minnesota Hygienic Bees, so it is hopeful that my bees are the type that are sensitive.


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## Delta 21 (Mar 4, 2016)

msl said:


> Destructive honey hunting is the "natural" state of things with a predator/prey relationship. Your in the US, your keeping a nonnative invasive species in a wooden box.
> Flip side is smoke IS natural, your taking advantage of the bees survival instinct to a natural trigger that has been used by beekeepers to their advantage for over 3,000 years. Too many people are pushing an "every one elce has been wrong forever" marketing niche, standard items are standard for a reason despitet the internet chatter of people trying to sell things


:applause::thumbsup::applause:


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Thats a leg up if they are indeed what he says and he has matained the line
Flip side here is you just as likly got sold a name and not much more unless the person bought II breeder queens and has been actival breeding, testing, and dominating there drone DCAs, The university stopped II bees to preserve the line almost 10 years back.
Don't hope, do a roll and KNOW

here is a short story for you.. 
About 8 years back I built a KTBH and caught a swarm, placed it at a local garden center, that lead to some cutouts from people who called the center looking for help with a bee problem.
I Bought larry connors book ,raized queens, made up nucs and expanded. I was able to work most of my hives in shorts and a tee shirt, no gear, no smoke. I was Sam fricking Comfort and on top of the world! I think I had gone up to 6-8 hives, Mites? Why would I worry about mites? I don't see any and have feral stock on natural/small cell comb in magic TF topbar hives. Then one spring hives were building up slow, but its not mites, they must be russtian/feral bees that over winter in small clusters and build slow, right? But they had a great fall flow and were looking great!
WHAM 100% loss 
So I bought some "locally sensitized VSH" stock, 100% loss
I tryed again with the VSH 100% loss
I quit beekeeping for a few years
Then last year the garden center sent some one my way that had a swarm, and I was back in bees...I was still convisend it wasn't mites.... it was the guy who set up on the hill across form me with 20 or so "evil" langs, my problems started when he arived, his bees came and robed me, they were out compeating me for forage or something....lol Finally some one looked me in the eye and said, it was mites, 95% chance with all that you did it was mites, I started reserching and fould out all the problems people had going TF, It wasn't just withhold treatments, lose a small present of your hives and everything turns out fine like the internet gurus told me....
Come fall, I panicked, I didn't want to go threw massive losses again so I blindly treated in Nov with one shot of OAD with out a clue at to what my mite load was
I came threw winter with 6 or of 6 alive and booming, turned 5 of them in to 30+ hives
I watched the other guy shake in 20 new packages. Landowner said he took 100% winter losses, mites. Turns out my problems were mites and may have had to do with getting mite bombed by colasping hives in the area. That fall flow? yep they were out robbing.

Now I run monthly counts on my full sized hives I know witch ones need to be treated and then broken up in to nucs come spring, and witch ones will be propagated from to provide cells for those nucs. 

The take home is blind faith will often lead you to be blindsided and even good resistance stock can be wiped out by mitebombs. The way to fight it is to know what your counts are and take action if needed, more importantly to take action only if needed. That dosen't mean you have to resort to cems, you may, or there are other ways you can knock you numbers down to protect your investment till spring when you can requeen.


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## Corto (May 29, 2017)

I finally harvested my first bar of honey. Full size, only a few perimeter cells were still open nectar. Since this is the last bar I added 7/27, I assume the other ~10 bars are already capped off as well, so things seem good.

I was able to share cut up comb with family at our Labor Day party, and the discussion revolved around bees quite a bit which was fun. 

Delta, the bar I harvested I first had in my observation hive for a few hours on the table we were all sitting around. I then brought it a few feet from the main entrance and removed the cover. Within 10 minutes 90% of the bees flew off back into the main hive, making brushing off the remaining very easy. That is a pretty easy method!

Did see two SHBs running around which I squashed. 

I left about 2 inches of comb on the bar and replaced it. Will need to check next week how much they have rebuilt.

The honey was great...


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