# Permacomb replacement



## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Well it looks like Perma Comb is going to have some competition. This company already makes plastic frames for supers but are coming out the early next year with a fully drawn 9 1/8 inch brood comb. The cell size is going to be 4.9 to try to reduce the mite population. The owner said his current frames take about 150 pounds to break them so I dont think there will be the sagging problem the Perma Comb has. The only problem I see is that he does not have 4.9 foundation frames for suppers. Which means all 9 1/8 inch supers or queen excluders with a top entrance. 

I found this company by the ad in the December ABJ page 961. Well here is the web site. http://www.honeysupercell.com/6955.html 

[This message has been edited by magnet-man (edited December 03, 2004).]


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## Flewster (Nov 3, 2003)

WOW this sounds great......wonder what it costs

------------------
You have to stop and smell the roses......but please watch out for my bees.


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## John Seets (Jan 9, 2003)

Sagging problem?

I thought I had heard them all but this is a new one.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The top bar of the frame tends to bow and flex too easily<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See first post, second paragraph, second sentence.
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002137.html 

Additional Note 12/05/04:
I should have said flexing and bowing instead of saging. I was working from memory of a prior post. I stand corrected.

[This message has been edited by magnet-man (edited December 05, 2004).]


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I think that you have your products mixed up.
The link is for a company that makes a plastic frame, like the Peirco.
They have the cell pattern imprinted. 
They are NOT, from the pictures and features, fully formed plastic comb.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

As I read it, the 9 1/8 frames will be fully drawn. It was not claimed that the present ones were. Who uses 7 1/4 frames? What do they fit?

dickm


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<HoneySuperCell has started development of the 9 1/8" fully drawn-out frame. This frame will utilize a 5mm cell size and will be drawn out 12mm on each side. >>

Under "News". I'm also wondering about the 7 1/4" frames.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Western Bee Supply has the 7 5/8" boxes and 7 1/4" wood frames.
http://www.westernbee.com/cat1.htm


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The top bar of the frame tends to bow and flex too easily
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See first post, second paragraph, second sentence. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002137.html 


[This message has been edited by magnet-man (edited December 02, 2004).]

Bowing and sagging are two different things. Permacomb does NOT sag. If you force it into a box that is too short, or if you do not keep the ends of the topbars and the frame rests clean, therby putting pressure on the ends of the frames, they can bow, but it will be sideways, not sagging.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

quote
HoneySuperCell products have been approved for use by Cowen Mfg. The Parowan UT based Cowen Mfg has approved the Honey SuperCell products for use in their high capacity machinery, Their comments are that this product will certainly decrease the dificulties in the uncapping and extracting process. Please see the Uncapper Testing page for more on this.

end quote from their web site

Drop an e-mail to the Cowan company and see what they have to say about this SUPPOSEDLY endorsed product


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

When I first saw Bullseye Bill's post I thought BB should know that they were referring to their existing product line, but after checking the site I feel HoneySuperCell is being misleading. Their announcement of the R&D of a fully drawn out comb followed by a statement that Cowen Mfg has approved their products for use implies the fully drawn frame is approved. The foundation frames were tested before the development of the fully drawn out frame and therefore could not be approved. Here is the material in question:

July 1st, 2004 

HoneySuperCell has started development of the 9 1/8" fully drawn-out frame. This frame will utilize a 5mm cell size and will be drawn out 12mm on each side. The frame dimensions and features will be identical to our other products.

HoneySuperCell products have been approved for use by Cowen Mfg. The Parowan UT based Cowen Mfg has approved the Honey SuperCell products for use in their high capacity machinery, Their comments are that this product will certainly decrease the difficulties in the uncapping and extracting process. Please see the Uncapper Testing page for more on this.

The only way I can see fully drawn out frames going through an automated uncapping system is if the system is designed to puncture the capping instead of slicing the capping off. There is a system for extracting heather honey, from the comb that uses a similar process. The system has a plate of individual spring load pins so a pin is inserted in each cell and then vibrates and thus liquefies the honey for extracting. The springs are there to allow the pin to retract if it hits a cell containing pollen. Something along that line may work for fully drawn out plastic. 

I tried to find the link for the above system but could not find it again. I have found it two or three times so someone else may have seen it, if so please post the link. 

I did find a link but this is not the one I was looking for, but it will do. http://www.swienty.com/engelsk/uncapping-loosener.htm 


[This message has been edited by magnet-man (edited December 05, 2004).]

Found the original link that I was talking about. http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/biodling/ljung/ling-2.htm 

[This message has been edited by magnet-man (edited December 05, 2004).]


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

If and when they become available, I'd give them a try.

"The only way I can see fully drawn out frames going through an automated uncapping system is if the system is designed to puncture the capping instead of slicing the capping off."

I think that a chain uncapper like Maxant would not have a problem uncapping. My concern would be too much vibration like I saw with Pierco.


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

FYI!
---------------------------------------
Dave,
We will have quantity stock to ship by March 1st. These frames have a spacing bar that is 1-9/16" wide and a standard box accepts 9 with ¼ left over. They will be packaged in boxes of 54 and the price on a single box quantity should be

$179.95 + shipping. I am not quite sure about the weight. Check back after Christmas and I can let you know then. I think that they will weigh about 1.5 lbs. This frame also is the small cell that is 4.9mm and is designed with the brood chamber in mind.
Best Regards,
Mark Hamby
---------------------------------------


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>This frame also is the small cell that is 4.9mm and is designed with the brood chamber in mind.

Is this the fully drawn comb or the "Pierco" style frame/foundation?

This will be very interesting to small cell enthusists if it's fully drawn comb. And even if its the frames, it will be useful in regressed hives.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Michael it is the fully drawn comb.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

That will be awsome then. I wish it was available in mediums too.







But I might cut some down.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>I wish it was available in mediums too. But I might cut some down. 

If you do, I would buy your cut-offs.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Bill, what do you do with 3" of drawn plastic comb?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Bill, what do you do with 3" of drawn plastic comb?

If I told you I have a plastic welder you wouldn't sell it to me. Oops...

I'd weld it onto the bottom of PC and use it in a long trough hive. Or buy some of the deeps and weld it onto them and still use them in a trough hive.

I don't want to, (shouldn't) pick up that much weight with my back, but trough hives seem to be a good alternative especially when I can make the frames 12 inches deep.

------------------
Bullseye Bill
http://www.members.cox.net/bullseyebees


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

So is this 5 mm or 4.9 mm? Many small cellers would suggeest that this will make a difference.

Keith


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So is this 5 mm or 4.9 mm? Many small cellers would suggeest that this will make a difference.

What's more, it gets complicated to say when you have a plastic cell wall that is thicker than a standard one. Then the inside diameter becomes the issue. Since with foundation, no matter how thick the cell wall is embossed, the bees build the wall the same thickenss it's sufficient to measure across 10 cells and divide by 10. But if the cell wall is much thicker you have to take the difference in cell wall thickness into account. 4.9cm across 10 cells with a wall thickness of 0.1mm (natural walls) is the same as 5.0cm acroos 10 cells with a wall thickness of 0.2mm. I don't know how thick the walls are on this comb, but my guess is it's more than 0.2mm. So I guess it depends on their measurment system. The inside diameter of what we call a 4.9mm cell is actually 4.8mm. So if the inside diameter of the cell on the plastic comb is 4.8mm it is the same as 4.9mm comb. If the inside diameter of the cell on the plastic comb is 4.9mm then it's the equivelant of 5.0mm comb.

I'd be curious to see some to measure it.


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

With my bad back I would have to use this product in a long hive. Mediums please lol. I hope they fixed a few of the other concerns of PC like actually giving it a topbar and bottom bar so the cross combing would be reduced.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>I hope they fixed a few of the other concerns of PC like actually giving it a topbar and bottom bar so the cross combing would be reduced.

I would hope NOT! Two of the better features of PC is that it has more cells because it does not have solid bars, AND that it lets the bees build solid linear sheets of comb like in a natural hive.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have to admit I've learned to like all the things I believed I would hate about PermaComb.







I think the wall to wall cells help keep the queen moving easily from one box to another and the gap lets them build the right amount of drone and my breaking it open to inspect gives me a good assesment of mite infestation.


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## danno1800 (Mar 13, 2004)

Thanks to all for this terrific discussion. This kind of thing is what makes this board so worthwhile IMHO. Thanks again!


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## John Seets (Jan 9, 2003)

Ditto, Mike.


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## Keith Malone (Dec 16, 2003)

> We will have quantity stock to ship by March 1st. These frames have a spacing bar that is 1-9/16" wide and a standard box accepts 9 with ¼ left over.
>

Unless I am not understanding something this I see as a problem for me since I like using 10 frames per box and I would prefer to use 11 frames per box. If you were making them so 10 or better 11 frames would fit to a box I would buy them, of course this would depend on if the cells were truly 49cm per ten linear cells. I need a sample I guess to see if I could work with them or if I could modify them to suit my purpose.

------------------
. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, 
c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ ,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/


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## Ricko (May 18, 2004)

I'm somewhat confused. I made a visit to the honeysupercell website and found a listing for a 6 1/4 & 7 1/4 foundations. It sounded as though these were already available,although no prices were given. If these two sizes are available,why haven't we read anything on how well they worked? The 6 1/4 would be the medium size for the 6 5/8's supers,and you'd think have gone through a serious enough testing to give a little insight as to how well a 9 1/8 frame might do. I for one will be getting some new hives together this winter for spring nucs, and would be interested in the new 9 1/8 frame. I'd hope the company would be doing production runs by then where they'd be able to fill orders, and not just sending out limited amounts for testing.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

What is currently available and on the market is a frame similar to pierco. 
They are claiming that they will have the fully drawn plastic frames by this spring.
But, nothing is available yet in a fully drawn frame.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you read carefully you will see there are three products. Two are currently available and they are not foundation nor are they fully drawn comb. The two available are "Pierco" style frame and foundation except that they are 6.0mm cell size for ease of extraction. They are only available in 6 1/4" and 7 1/4" sizes. The product that is not yet on the market is the FULLY DRAWN frame and comb with what they are posting as 5.0mm cell size. Since the cell walls are there, measuring becomes a bit complex and it's easy to find yourself comparing apples to oranges. It remains to be seen how that will work out.

So the frame/foundation products for supers are not at all the same as the fully drawn 9 1/4" product for the brood nest. The 6 1/4" and 7 1/4" are NOT fully drawn. They are also NOT the same cell size. The 9 1/4" also is NOT available yet.

Knowing how well accepted or how well the 6 1/4" product works will be irrelevant to how the 9 1/4" product works on all levels.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

HAS ANYONE PURCHASED ANY OF THESE FRAMES OR ANYTHING FROM THIS COMPANY?
JUST LOOKING FOR A LITTLE FEED BACK.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm waiting for the fully drawn stuff to come out.


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## dp (Jun 30, 2003)

From What I read on the company's website, they are not going to have the deeps available until mid-March.


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## roger eagles (Apr 18, 2004)

I s ther a place to buy 3/4 Foundation.Can only get the 9 in up here.


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## Ricko (May 18, 2004)

FYI!
---------------------------------------
Dave,
We will have quantity stock to ship by March 1st

Okay tomorrow is March 1st. Can we expect and evaluation of some type within the next couple of weeks?


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Just got off the phone with them. The mold is being tested, and then there is some time for the production run. The owner was suggesting that they would likly ship around the middle of April.

As an aside, they are only going to fit 9 frames to a super.

Keith


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>As an aside, they are only going to fit 9 frames to a super.

Not when I get done with them.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

I will be very interested to see how the modifications work out.

Keith


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## Ricko (May 18, 2004)

I received email yesterday and they're still working out the bugs on the mold. They expect now the middle of May for available frames.


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## Ricko (May 18, 2004)

Any word on these frames yet?


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## MichelleB (Jan 29, 2006)

Looks like they've run out of steam. Anybody hear if they're going to market with this, or ditching it?


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

The suspense is killing me. I want those fully drawn 5.0's now......... darn it.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I guess you missed the post :

> posted February 27, 2006 11:09 PM 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got an email today from Honey Supercell. They sent me a picture of the frame that they molded today. It's green. Production starts immediately I guess. They say they will start shipping in six to eight weeks.

--------------------

and they are smaller than 5.0. I would not hold my breath yet, look how long it's been. However they promised to ship to me by April 1. If they don't, I'm not sure who is the fool.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

It sounds like it will be worth the wait though....


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Upon further reflection, it was MAY first


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

Their web site was updated this week to reflect the status of the new foundation. I have exchanged emails with the owner and he is making sure the production does not have any kinks before making any promises. He is also working to build a couple of thousand of frames for inventory.

More to come, I'm excited to try them!


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## MichelleB (Jan 29, 2006)

Well, that's a bummer.

[ March 22, 2006, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: Lupine ]


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## MichelleB (Jan 29, 2006)

Okay, I wrote the Honey Super Cell folks a couple weeks ago, and on Wednesday they responded thus: 

--Frames available in 6 weeks
--cell size about 4.82mm
--Frames are shipping in 20 pcs per box and freight will run about 20 dollars plus handling (at least to Oregon, which is where I asked for shipping quote). 
--Frames are $4.50/ea in small quantities (they said if I was interested in more than 1000, to let them know.) 

So with shipping, each frame will be 5.50 each, PLUS handling. 

Hmmm.

[ March 26, 2006, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: Lupine ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>--cell size about 4.82mm

Inside? If so, that's perfect. As good as it gets anyway.

>--Frames are shipping in 20 pcs per box and freight will run about 20 dollars plus handling (at least to Oregon, which is where I asked for shipping quote).

Wow! A dollar a frame for shipping. They much be heavy.

>--Frames are $4.50/ea in small quantities (they said if I was interested in more than 1000, to let them know.)

I'd still like to try them.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Love to try them.... $4.50 is steep though. Hopefully they will come down as they recover some start up costs.

If they want a shot at small commercial folks they need to come up with firm, listed volume discounts.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Let's see. 20 frames at $4.50 plus $1 shipping is $110 just to try them out...

Still permanent, drawn, small cell comb that the moths can't eat and the SHB can't burrow through, might be worth it.

Now if they'd just make them in mediums...


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Did we all get this from Honey Super Cell today?

>To all you who have expressed interest,

We are excited to let you know that we are finally ready to start 
producing our new Full Size Fully Drawn 4.9mm frame.
The cell size is ~4.85mm. The cell walls are ~.67mm thick.

We think that this frame offers the possibility of aiding in the control 
of Varroa mite without pesticides.

Without pesticides being introduced into the hive on a consistent basis 
we think that queen's life may be extended and the
hive strength enhanced.

We are aware and excited by honeybee breeding efforts and hope that the 
use of this frame would complement those efforts.

These frames are designed to fit 10 pcs in a box and are shipping in a 
box of 20.

We look forward to your comments. We are looking forward to having 
shippable inventory by early May.

--HSC
760.412.4598
866.343.7191


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## blkcloud (May 25, 2005)

I bore out a few racing lawnmower engines each year in my machine shop..I tell the guys..if your gonna play you gotta pay!!


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Yes BB I got it too. 

Hope to hear more......


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store not a government agency

I have a sign on the cover on my bound Blue Book (that's the official log book for all firearms sales) that reads 'Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms, who's bringing the chips?'.

I don't like the feds getting too headdy when they come to audit me. For some reason they haven't taken me to lunch yet.  

Back to HSC. I am not sure if my original order placed over a year ago is still pending. When I e-mailed I got no response. I have forgotten how many cases I ordered.









I also need to order another 500 frames of PC from Mr. Seets too.


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

I'd like to try a box myself. What is the address to order some?


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

http://www.honeysupercell.com/catalog/index.php


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

""The dimensions of the cell are as follows: OD includes the cell wall - 4.9mm, ID is 4.3mm. The cell count is 2250 cells per side.""

I think some one has messed up the count of cells, Permacomb has over 2900 per side.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Ed, the latest dimentions as posted in thier e-mail are: "The cell size is ~4.85mm. The cell walls are ~.67mm thick."

It does not add up for me even if you figure half of the .67 as just one wall. I don't know how they are measuring, but as long as the ID is 4.85 it will be great.

I have been thinking on how best to utilize these frames. I would like to use just one deep on bottom and one or two mediums of PC above for a nest. By what Dennis and Mike have found, a full box of small cell is not required, just the middle of the nest needs to be SC.

So I am thinking that five middle frames will be SC and the outer will be PC letting them draw the bottoms of the PC in the deep with whatever they like.

I also would not mind cutting the deeps down to medium frames. Since I bought a plastic welder I can take the cut-offs and weld them together and add ears. Thereby keeping my equipment universial.

What would either Dennis or MB recomend for a number of SC frames in the nest area?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

At 4.85mm inside diameter (which they did not specify, but that must be what it is) and .67mm walls that's 5.52cm across ten cells counting the walls. Sounds about right.

The nice thing about all SC in the brood nest is that everything is interchangable. But if you want to approximate what you find naturally, four to six in the middle that are 4.9mm and the outside ones 5.1 (PermaComb) would be pretty close. Of course the actual cell size varys on every comb with the outside edges and top being a bit large and the middle to the bottom being smaller.

I'm not sure how I'll use the SuperCell yet, or if I will, but I'll have to try it. I'm tempted to just put it in Dadant deep boxes (11 5/8") and let the bees build a bit of drone on the bottom or whatever they like. With a 19 7/8" by 19 7/8" box I'd have 12 of them for a brood nest. If I trim the ears a bit I could have 13 frames.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Using 5 in the middle would cut costs that's for sure. 

Never used PC yet, I'll have to order some for a trial. I like the idea of combining them. It does come in deeps????


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

this page

http://www.honeysupercell.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=42&osCsid=6ea4ef7878fbaa101c2164633a2d1625

say's



> The dimensions of the cell are as follows: OD includes the cell wall - 4.9mm, ID is 4.3mm. The cell count is 2250 cells per side.


I sure hope they haven't gone to all this trouble to make stuff with cells so small the bees won't lay in it

Dave


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Dave, that's old info. The release sent out on the 29th states->

>Full Size Fully Drawn 4.9mm frame.
The cell size is ~4.85mm. The cell walls are ~.67mm thick.

I know it doesn't add up, but they say the cell size is 4.85.... I sure hope it is.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Can't believe they would make it 4.3mm.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I wonder if that is why they were delayed. Perhaps they made them 4.3 and then the light bulb came on.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I love it when the lightbulb comes on









Dave


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

The 4.3 is from an old mold. I spoke with them today and they need to change that on the website. He is aware of the misprint. SOunds like with anything, he just needs some time to take care of it. The latest incarnation the cells will ahve an ID between 4.85 and 4.9 mm

Having said that, the price is definately $4.50 per frame. A bit steep, but I may try it anyway, if for no other reason than to ahve some comb that I can use to instantly shrink swarms and such.

Has anyone used their other stuff? The medium honey frames for honey supers? 

Keith

[ April 05, 2006, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: kgbenson ]


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## tony350i (Jul 29, 2005)

will you have to wax them like the Permacomb,

the off cuts that i had left over from my permacomb, i melted the sides and they stuck to gether really well, it's the one on the right


http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h319/tony350i/83073de2.jpg 

Tony

[ April 05, 2006, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: tony350i ]


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Why in the world would you do that to PC? You lost cells doing that! Thanks however, now I know what to do with those two frames that broke when the stack fell over last year in the storm.

And BTW, you don't HAVE to wax PC. If you want to make them small cell, yes, but waxing is not necessary. Spraying with sugar syrup or rubbing some old wax on them will entice the bees to start working the frames. Usually forcing them to PC only makes them accept it willingly.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why in the world would you do that to PC?

To put it in a British Standard hive.


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## tony350i (Jul 29, 2005)

Thanks MB,

I use different equipment than you; it was the only way I could get them to fit.

Tony


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## Forrest (Apr 2, 2006)

With small cell fully drawn comb - how many years will it last before the cell diameter is too small? 

Thanks, 
Forrest


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The bees chew it out when the cocoons make it too small. Of course that's a lot of layers of cocoons in 5.4mm comb before it's too small.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Has anyone used their medium honey combs?

Keith


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Keith,
I am trying 10 pieces of the medium 6-1/4" one piece frame/foundation. It is black, has wide end bars so only 9 fit easily into a normal 10-frame super. It is a very sturdy product. The top, end, and bottom bars are substantial. The embossed cell pattern is the same on both sides of the frame, both have the inverted "Y" pattern. They are black, so during the summer I will need to work fast or at night to keep from having melt-down. I received them too late last season to have them on during a flow, so the bees have been reluctant to draw them out (they've played with them a bit, but haven't completed any yet). Mesquite is almost here. I expect the, "acid" test will be what they do with them when the Mesquite is coming in.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Thanks for your thoughts Joseph. Is this stuff embossed, or fully drawn ala permacomb?

Keith


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Just embossed, not a fully drawn honeycomb. It also has 6mm cell size and a small lump in the bottom of each cell, supposedly to inhibit the queen laying in them.


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## thesurveyor (Aug 20, 2002)

I have read all the posts. Is it safe to say that this company will have a product for us to test this year? I have had great success with the permacomb product. I have the russian strain and they seem to like it very well. So maybe get them on deeps and get away from any mite problem or atleast dimish the effects. They fair much better that the others I have tried. So get them on small cell and get away from any kind of treatment. Have a russian hive that is three years old and has never been treated. So we will see.

Sorry I have been away from the boards for so long, just had other ventures that took quite a bit of my time. It is good to be back though.

Thanks
Thesurveyor


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

I like the fully drawn permacomb. It is a cinch to uncap and sturdy as all get out. I can have a complete newby uncapping with a ginsu knife and not worry that all of my drawn honey comb is beign butchered. I did buy a honey punch and don't like it though.

Keith


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## NCBEE (Apr 19, 2006)

Has anyone ordered any of these frames yet?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I think quite a few of us have ordered but they are not going to start shipping until the first of May. Or so they say...


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I ordered a case to try....... waiting, waiting...


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## NCBEE (Apr 19, 2006)

Anything yet?


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

I had no idea when I started this thread on December 02, 2004 they would still not have a product in May 2006


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## John Seets (Jan 9, 2003)

Hi, Keith;

Can you tell me why you did not like the honey punch? Been using 2 of them for many years and cannot see using anything else. I would be interested in your take on it.

Thanx.

John

[ May 08, 2006, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: John Seets ]


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Is anyone holding their breath on this one?

John, you could go into SC PermaComb production before these guys get theirs to the market, I think.

I don't have any PermaComb yet, but I'm thinking that it would be perfect for my baby-mating nucs. since they would store better than wax-comb. Right?

Waya


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## thesurveyor (Aug 20, 2002)

We as beekeepers are pretty patient people, however, this is a little much. I don't think they will ever have a product. 

John, your permacomb is the best stuff I have ever used. I am hooked for life.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

John - I may be using it wrong - but I cannot seem to get much of the honey to spin out. The stuff is warm - harvest on 90+ degree days here, so I don't think it is a viscocity thing. I run the punch over the face of the combs, there are a zillion little holes and then I spin and not much happens. I have a 9 frame radial manual extractor. I will try the honey punch again - and if anyone has any ideas to make it work like I heard it works I would be very appreciative.

Speaking fo which I need more permacomb and a set of spacers - can you IM me the prices, I can't find them from last time. I love the stuff in the honey chambers.

Keith


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I haven't had that problem, but then I use a Brushy Mt. 9/18 and can spin at really fast speeds. Unless I have pollen in some of the frames, then I have to distribute them on opposite sides and set on the extractor, my GF really likes to do that.  

Maybe your honey is crystalized?

I use the Hackler Honey Punch too. I find the two inch works best for me. I doesn't take a large hole for the honey to run out, but then that may be because of the high speeds I extract at.


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## John Seets (Jan 9, 2003)

Waya;

For me to go into fullblown small cell PC, a completley new mold would have to be manufactured. The cost factor is out of the question (unless I were rich (HAH!)). I can relate to the problems SuperCell people are having and wish them the best.

Current new PC cell ID runs ~5.0 - 5.1mm. I did some measurements last year on some older brood PC that the bees had "wax coated" themselves and found the cell ID to have decreased somewhat to ~4.9 - 5.0 mm. That's a bit closer to ideal small cell size.

I.A.C., I would really want to hear how the bees take to the supercell before (rich or not) I would engage in constructing such a mold.

I can't recall if Mike Bush stated cell IDs before and after manually waxing the PCs or not. Anyone remember?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Keith,

Regarding the punch: After spinning the comb, you may note that it looks like the cappings are still in place and that the honey may still be in the cells. Is this what you mean by "not much happening"? This is what I thought the first few times I used the punch. I used a toothpick to assure myself that, in effect, the honey was no longer in the cells.

If that is not the issue, then maybe as Bill suggested, maybe the problem is the speed or crystallization. I use a Dadant 22 frame motorized radial and extract in a room heated to 90-95 deg F (at ~23% RH). No muss - no fuss. I like the punch because it makes the whole extracting process go much faster. Did you look at the punch usage article I emailed to you?

Thanx.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Before coating my measurments on the PC were an average of 5.0mm inside diameter (the equivelant of 5.1mm cells if you're counting a .1mm natural cell wall, and pretty consistant in size). After coating the inside diameter averaged 4.85mm (the equivelant of 4.95mm cells).


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

John......... Please consider deeps as well as the mediums....

I would love to try running PC in the brood nest.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

John and Bill - defiantely not a crystalization issue - it may be that a hand crnak is simply not creating the "G"s that a motorized unit will. 

If I uncapped in a more traditional way it was no problem. 

I am going to try it agian this year. I have the midsized model - maybe I whould get the 2 inch deal.

Keith


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Keith........ Are you running 9 frames?? I would think if you did, they would draw it outfurther, and traditional uncapping may do better with lower speed extractors.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I would love to try running PC in the brood nest.

You just need the right sized boxes.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

>>John......... Please consider deeps as well as the mediums....

>>I would love to try running PC in the brood nest.

Sundance Please consider running meds....as well as deeps. Then you could try running PC in the brood nest!


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Hi Bruce - I do run 9 frames, it is then very simple to run a knife down the face of the comb and slice off the small amount that they have built out. Sometimes I take a bit more than I would like off the face. 

I really like permacomb - I just haven't gotten positive experience the honey punch advocates get out of the punches.

One of the things I like about permacomb is that a complete novice can uncap - sure they take all of the built out wax when they do it, but that is OK.

Keith


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Full depth PC would be gwad awful heavy as will the honey super cell if it ever comes out. 

I intend to use them for bottom boxes only and not for traveling.

A mold for making deeps like HSC is developing is big bucks, 50K+ if it can be done on the cheap.


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

so still nothing out of honey super cell?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I got this reply on the 13th.

William m. Vinduska wrote:

> In an earlier e-mail you stated that you would be shipping my two 
> cases of 4.9 frames by the first of May so I could make my splits. I 
> haven't heard anything yet and am getting anxious. What's up?
> Bill Vinduska 

Bill,
Sorry to keep you waiting, we did not get our inventory as expected, 
should have it by the end of the month.

Max


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

At least they replied to you. my email was not replied to. Today checked their website and it does not work. looks like a technical problem, kinda like the problems they are having producing the mold.

"we did not get our inventory as expected" I thought they were doing the molding - decided to move to China maybe?

hopes are low(er).


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

NOW IN STOCK! AND READY TO SHIP! Sorry, white only... $5. each including shipping.

http://www.honeysupercell.com/sblog/

Maybe I won't cut those deeps down after all.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I got that email today too. I guess I'll have to try it just to see how it does...


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I have 12 cases on a truck heading my way. I'll let you know how they are. I am tentativly shooting to have the center of the brood nest with these and 1st and 2nd regression SC wax outboard. Hope it works???


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

betcha they draw the wax first.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>betcha they draw the wax first.

I'd lean towards putting the bees on a full box of it and when they are using five frames of it, then swap the other five for the wax.


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## thesurveyor (Aug 20, 2002)

Got mine today. Will get them started. Curious if anyone else has gotten their's.

If so, any in use yet?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I ordered mine last week. Wasn't here yesterday yet. I suppose I try to get a few in play immediately for a feel for it. I'll probably move the one deep I have in a five frame box into an eight frame deep and see what they do with three frames of it.


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## thesurveyor (Aug 20, 2002)

It looks and feels just like PermaComb. It is a little heavy, but the benifits far exceed the drawbacks, if it works as good a permacomb.

I will try to get it in production as soon as possible also. Look forward to reports.


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## Wee3Bees Apiary (Feb 21, 2006)

Do you guys know if John Seets is still selling Permancomb? I tried to buy some from him a few months ago and didn't get a response from a Private Message.

John, if you are out there they won't really help me now, but I am interested for next spring. What month is the best time to order from you for next spring?


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

[email protected]


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## Wee3Bees Apiary (Feb 21, 2006)

Sundance, 

Thanks for the email address. I sent him both a PM and an email to that address, but no response from either. I guess that I got there too late this year or he didn't want to sell me any for some reason.

I will admit that I didn't try a 3rd time. It is possible that he didn't get either message.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I put 13 frames of it in hives today. We'll see how it goes.


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## Frank Shinji (Jun 10, 2006)

How's it going?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How's it going? 

I haven't had time to check and it's only been in there for four days... It may take them longer than that to accept plastic.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

It would sure be fun to slap a swarm on it!!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I checked one hive today. A little propolis on the plastic. No honey. No brood. I didn't treat it in anyway. Maybe I should have sprayed some syrup on it? HBH syrup maybe? I'll give it a little longer and the I'll try the syrup.


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

The Honey Super Cell guys seem to be getting it together. Order a carton full a few days ago and just got DHL notification that its on its way.


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

And then again maybe it ain't. DHL just notified me the shipping ticket was voided by the shipper


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Now for the real good news. I just got an email from Mark who has been monitoring this thread and the reason the shipment stopped was that I had requested UPS shippment on our company's UPS account. Apparently just after setting it up with DHL someone noticed the request, pulled the bill of lading and took the pack to UPS for shipment. Then took the time and effort to notify me.

Well done !! and good luck with your product launch. I think we all hope it is successful and becomes another good tool in beekeeping.

[ June 17, 2006, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: brent.roberts ]


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanks for the quick shipping Mark. Your product looks nice and I will keep you and all posted as I introduce them.


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## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

Assuming the small cell plastic is successful in the brood chamber, what are the expectations on how long before it becomes unusable?

With each generation the cell size diminishes slightly so at some point the cells will become 'too' small.

It is common practice to replace old black comb with fresh on a regular cycle to maintain hive health, and cell stamped plastic frames can be renewed by being scraped and redrawn. 

Any thoughts on how the Super Cell plastic can be renewed?


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Just pressure wash with hot soapy water (not too hot).


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>With each generation the cell size diminishes slightly so at some point the cells will become 'too' small.

The bees will chew them out when they get too small. If you really want to you can use a power washer and wash them. It appears to be the same material as the PermaComb, if so, that has a melting point of 220 F and you can boil them to get the cocoons out if you want.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It is common practice to replace old black comb with fresh on a regular cycle to maintain hive health

Actually lets look at it the other way around. Perhaps the reason the comb gets thick and unhealthy is the number of cocoons that build up before the bees chew them out. They will let the cell size fall to as little as 4.4mm or so before they chew them out. That's a lot of cocoons if you started at 5.4mm. And every layer is another place for AFB spores and chalkbrood spores to hide.


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Today I put a couple HSC combs in two different hives that have accepted and are building on Permacomb. The frames are all cells on one side and have maybe 20 solid cells, I think because of the injection process, on the other. 

I took ball of beeswax and rubbed it on one side of each and painted the other side with some fresh honey. 

I would have preferred to have pushed them by putting on a full super of HSC to force them into it but the super additions are a few weeks away yet. This will be intereseting to see if they willingly accept it.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>The frames are all cells on one side and have maybe 20 solid cells, I think because of the injection process, on the other. 

The solid cells are for the push pins to have a place to push the frame out of the mold. The frames are very hard to push out and need a lot of force to do so.

I put a swarm on a full nuc of HSC last week, I'll have a look on the seventh day. I didn't coat the frames with anything


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Do those Permacomb frames follow Housel positioning?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Do those Permacomb frames follow Housel positioning? 

PC is the same on both sides. Both sides are inverted Y. MB and I decided that they would be like that Star Trek episode where every time you went through a door you ended up in the same room you were already in.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Thanks Bill, I don't personally follow it myself, but I know some do. Before Star Trek that sometimes happened on the Twilight Zone.


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