# Ideas for limiting manual labor for beeks.



## schmism

Just doesnt seem to be a better way than what most commercial places seemed to have developed.

which is.

hives in a bee yard. when extraction time comes, a small army of workers pulls full honey supers, blows them out with gas powered leaf blower then loaded into a trailer. (loaded on a trailer could mean hand carried med supers or stacked 4-6 tall and hand-carted into a trailer, placed on pallets)

you arrive at the processing facility off site of the bee yard. forklift forks pallets out of trailer carries them inside. person unloads supers to the "line" that process the frames.

empty frames are placed back in supers and stored for the winter.


For commercial ops it make sence to do this because of the logistics in dealing with 10's of thousands of pounds of honey in the finished state. bottling, case storage and handling etc all done in the same extraction faclity makeing use of the same forklift equipment etc.


Seems the same is going to be true for hobbiest or small time operator. 
I pull honey supers, place them in a wagon and pull them across the yard to the house were i carry them inside to the kitchen. we stack them inside and start extracting them. the empty supers either go back on (For fall flow) or into storage.


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## sqkcrk

Ace,
I guess there is nothing wrong w/ imagining another way to do things. But, I think you should spend some time working bees and extracting honey the way it is done and then make adjustments to the way things are done. 

Either that, or develope your own techniques and publish the results.

There is a reason why things are the way they are and are done the way they are done. It is because someone already went thru all of the hard work to develop the equipment and the processes.

If you can build a better mouse trap, do it. Otherwise, use the ones that work the best.


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## honeyshack

Beekeeping is manual labor. The only way around so much manual work is, if you can afford it is, a fork lift or two, in line air ram system, an ez loader and alot of extra backs to help out.
It is what beekeeping is, was, and will be. Not an easy job for the faint of heart. There are tricks to help out, but that is about it.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> There is a reason why things are the way they are and are done the way they are done. It is because someone already went thru all of the hard work to develop the equipment and the processes.
> 
> If you can build a better mouse trap, do it. Otherwise, use the ones that work the best.


The only problem with that logic is they developed them with manual labor in mind. Most businessman are willing to discuss ways of reducing manual labor. Well seasoned beekeepers are not. However many of you are in competition with each other like it or not. If someone finds a way to reduce their direct labor by 25%, heck even 10%, your tried and true ways may be a disadvantage to you.

Schmism,
The scale of the operation will make a huge difference. A thousand hive operation will not and can not do what a 100 hive operation can do and vice verse. To think otherwise is not practical. It is all about logistics. But the belief that you cannot reduce manual labor in a bee keeping operation is like insisting that you have to pick corn by hand. Anything can be mechanized.
In 10 or 20 years what kind of a workforce will be available to work bees outside of china?


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## beedeetee

This seems like such a bad idea that I don't even know where to start with a reply. So you show up with boxes with bees and honey at the extracting facility. Some of the foragers will be back at the yard. Do you own a box for each hive so they (back at the yard) have a place to go? The rest of the foragers are now flying around your extracting facility not knowing where their hive is...

Now at the extracting facility you have bees in your boxes with the honey so you still have to get them off of the frames. You could use Bee-go or something similar and limit the others from flying, but if you are pulling a frame at a time from the boxes, you will have problems. Now you have to bring your bees (probably minus the other foragers that are looking for their hive, or the honey that they can smell) back to the yard. And what have we saved over just putting empty honey supers on the pallets and bringing them to the facility?

Have you pulled honey supers before? Have you extracted where you go in and out of doors with many flying bees around? I'm asking these as serious questions, but I'm assuming that you haven't.


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## jrbbees

Corn is mechanized.
But corn doesn't sting your butt either.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Most businessman are willing to discuss ways of reducing manual labor. Well seasoned beekeepers are not.
> 
> Schmism,
> But the belief that you cannot reduce manual labor in a bee keeping operation is like insisting that you have to pick corn by hand. Anything can be mechanized.
> 
> In 10 or 20 years what kind of a workforce will be available to work bees outside of china?


Nabber warned me, but I'm weak. 

Baloney, show us how. Our main problem is you have no experience and aren't suggesting any practical, thought out, well designed plans to reach your stated goal.

Again, baloney. You don't seem to understand or know how mechanised beekeeping already is. Have you ever seen a Cowen SilverQueen Deboxer/Uncapper and Extractor System? W/ a Reboxer too? One of the most efficient extracting systems ever designed. Can be operated by two people w/ouit actually touching frames. They still have to pickup boxes so the frames can go back into them. There is still alot of manual work.

Also, you don't seem to know how much work is being done in our INDUSTRY by Mexicans, Bosnians and Americans, right there in your own Mohawk Valley back yard. Do you know one of NY's largest beekeeping operations, almost w/in rock throwing distance of you over in Herkimer whose labor force are Bosnians?

There are people in this Nation who still know how to work and will work, if you know where to find them and how to deal w/ them. Shoot, I bet I know a guy who would even hire you to help fill in sometimes, if you were willing and had the time.

I'd invite you over to Sauquoit to help extract my crop, except I'd be afraid you would bring your mouth w/ you and spoil it for those who have been doing the work for so long. Maybe the next time I'm down we should have breakfast in New Hartford at Joan's. Traditionally the new guy buys. Then whoever paying to have the extracting done buys the meals for those who work. You game?


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## RogerCrum

Ace the mobil honey house is a very old idea that may survive somewhere on the planet even though not a good logistical solution and does nothing in practice to reducemanual labor specifically.

Some members have done you a service giving honest and accurate feedback of your of off-putting and arrogant comments. Adjusting systems and personal behavior due to feedback is an important part of any continuous improvement program. 

Karl's invitation to you is a very respectful and warm one that few would copy. Take him up on it and build a relationship on actions. Maybe offer to do the most humble job of the day to simply be of help. 
Warmest regards


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## RogerCrum

Mark, sorry but my fat fingers renamed you Karl in my earlier post. You would think that with a name like Crum that I would be careful with other's names. Your last post in this thread has earned my respect.
Roger Crum


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## Bsweet

AceB, Corn harvest is automated on the seed side only, most of the ear corn is still done by hand.
Bee Keeping is a hands on job, I don't think an mechanical assembly line can inspect the frame joints or condition of the comb as the line moves. Now I'm not a commercial outfit, hell I'm not even a sideliner but I do it because I enjoy the hands on part of the job. The way a honey operation is run varies from outfit to outfit but it all boils down to what works. Sure there is alot of automation out there but unless you are a large outfit the cost just ain't justified. Bee Keeping will always come down to grunts in the trenchs and boots on the ground unless your the Donald Trump of bee keeping and hire someone else to do the grunt work. Jim


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## sqkcrk

RogerCrum said:


> Mark, sorry but my fat fingers renamed you Karl in my earlier post. Your last post in this thread has earned my respect.
> Roger Crum


I wondered who you were refering to. My Grandfather Berninghausen's brother was named Karl. Maybe you are Psychic. Don't worry about it.

Loved your comix. 

Respect? Thanks. Some of us are just gluttons for punishment, I guess. Besides, I was always taught to light a candle instead of cursing the dark. I'm just trying to light Acebird's way. Though some would like me to give up the cause.


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## sqkcrk

Bsweet said:


> AceB, Corn harvest is automated on the seed side only, most of the ear corn is still done by hand.


You must mean Sweet Corn, right? Cause I don't even think my Grandpa Porter from Waterloo, Iowa hand picked his shell corn for feed. Modern corn combines come out of the fields w/ shelled corn or they shoot it into trucks.


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## Bsweet

Yep Mark, I was speaking of sweet corn sorry, but then shelled corn is normally seed/feed corn unless your making silage.But then thats done with a cutter and not a combine Jim


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## waynesgarden

Acebird said:


> Most businessman are willing to discuss ways of reducing manual labor. Well seasoned beekeepers are not.


Most well-seasoned beekeepers that I am familiar with are happy to talk about reducing their manual labor. What I've learned is that they are not keen on silly "advice" from those so obviously ignorant of the subject yet almost pathologically insistant on making their "expert" opinion known despite it being unencumbered by the thought process.



sqkcrk said:


> If you can build a better mouse trap, do it. Otherwise, use the ones that work the best.


Now, should this design be based on actual knowledge of mouse behavior or on theories derived from a summer of watching old Disney movies?

After you discard the uncappers, perhaps the next to go should be those inefficient trucks. Since you will be making perhaps three or four or more trips moving complete hives for each trip you are currenty making carrying only full supers, you will be needing a more efficient vehicle. Perhaps a Prius, with a 4' by 6' Tractor Supply utility trailer will fill the bill. You could eliminate the need for a forklift since you only have to ramp the hives up about 12" or so. And your efficiency in loading and securing all those tall hives and making the trip should greatly improve after the first few extra trips from each yard.

Just my "expert" opinion."

On the plus side, this thread is so silly as to actually have entertainment value.

Wayne


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## slickbrightspear

ace 
I do not know whats going on with the irritability but if you start extracting right in the yard unless you have a very good way to keep the bees out of your mobile extracting unit you may start a secenario that you would not like to see if there is any type of dearth they will swarm the honey and cause a lot of problems.


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## rrussell6870

So should we be taking the oceans to the markets instead of just the fish? Sure would save time and energy if we didn't have to catch all the fish and transport them on ice as fast as we can to the markets...

Are you just that lazy or what? Give it up man... you have used more energy trying to reject the idea of a little work than you would have just rolling up your sleeves and getting it done... you can argue with that hive of yours till Christmas, but I guaranty you it still will not puts its honey in jars for you and carry them to the storefront... may I suggest a hobby that may be more up your alley, like sleeping... I promise you no one here is going to tell you that you are doing that wrong...


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## BeeJellis

Hi ace, 
I have to agree with the same idea that slickbrightspear said about the bees going into a big robbing and fighting mode. Working at "The Fat Beeman's'' we extract from the bee yard and make a run for the school house to keep as many bees unaware of what we are doing otherwise the bees just start robbing due to the heavy sent of honey in the area.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> I'd invite you over to Sauquoit to help extract my crop, except I'd be afraid you would bring your mouth w/ you and spoil it for those who have been doing the work for so long. Maybe the next time I'm down we should have breakfast in New Hartford at Joan's. Traditionally the new guy buys. Then whoever paying to have the extracting done buys the meals for those who work. You game?


Hey, I would like to take you up on that but right now I got too many irons in the fire. Maybe I could give you a hand next year. I don't know where Joan's is. The only thing listed in this area with that name is in Chadwicks, next to Sauquoit but if you want a good breakfast I suggest you meet me here and I'll feed you the best whole wheat pancakes or bacon and eggs you have ever tasted.

You are right I don't have the experience in bee keeping but I have done some things that were deemed impossible until I proved that they were possible.


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## sqkcrk

Yeah, Chadwicks.


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## jim lyon

I'm mostly smiling and shaking my head. Waynes right this does have a certain entertainment value. I don't even know where to begin so I won't.


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## Acebird

BeeJellis said:


> Hi ace,
> I have to agree with the same idea that slickbrightspear said about the bees going into a big robbing and fighting mode. Working at "The Fat Beeman's'' we extract from the bee yard and make a run for the school house to keep as many bees unaware of what we are doing otherwise the bees just start robbing due to the heavy sent of honey in the area.


If the hives are moved 100-200 ft and boxes are put in their place to accept the foragers will they not go in and store their nectar. So now the hives are cleaned of foragers (temporarily) and only the young bees are on the combs. Do these bees fly around much? If they don't forage will they rob and fight?


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## Acebird

rrussell6870 said:


> So should we be taking the oceans to the markets instead of just the fish? Sure would save time and energy if we didn't have to catch all the fish and transport them on ice as fast as we can to the markets...


I think that is already done. Much of the commercial fishing is not fishing at all it is farming. No boats.


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## belliott

I think Acebird asks a valid question. Whether he has ever seen a live bee has nothing to do with improving the process, if he understands the process. That is what makes forums a great place to learn and develope "new practices"

If honey prices are driven down, because of foriegn honey imports. How does the US honey producer make a profit? I think anyone interested in making a profit from honey sales should be interested in lowering operation cost. 

I think a method for automating the harvest of supers could be done. I think it would require operations to standardize equipment and find new management pratices. I don't believe there are enough large operations in the USA to make designing a completely automated system practical. Only a few would be able to justify the investment and more would prefer doing it the "old" way.


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## slickbrightspear

I am not saying that he can not improve the process I am pointing out one thing he will have to contend with. I set out a couple of supers for about 5 minutes that i had taken off the hives and they were swarming it thousands of bees not fifty to a hundred it was not a pretty sight.


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## belliott

I think keeping bees out of the trailer would be one of the easier things to do.

If I was building a moble honey house,I would start with a large enclosed trailer. I would cut holes for a roller table line to load the hives into the trailer. I would place air curtains, blowing compressed air over the roller table to blow bees off the supers. I would place a larger air curtain above and below the opening of the trailer to prevent bees from entering.


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## jim lyon

belliott said:


> I think Acebird asks a valid question.


The first problem is Acebird didnt ask a question. He laid out a fairly detailed proposal for how he felt things should be done. The problem is he dosent have one single shred of experience to back up anything and as near as I can tell has never even been in an extracting room in his life yet he is making proposals on how to make them more efficient. There are an awfully lot of bright people in this business who have made some real contributions to making what we do easier and more efficient. Without exception they are "roll up their sleeves" kind of folks who have looked at a problem and improvised a solution. The point I am trying to make is that these improvements arent made staring at a computer monitor they are made in the real world by people that first learn how things work and then based on that experience start to question certain aspects. Belliott: All good businessmen are interested in lowering their operating costs and if you think there arent some great automated extracting setups out there then perhaps you need to look around a bit you might be surprised. But make no mistake about it there are improvements yet to be made, the only constant is change. So for someone with a creative mind that dosent mind a hard days work there is always an opportunity to make this business a little bit better. I remember asking my father once about what the biggest improvement he ever made in the extracting room was and he said, without hesitation, that it was when as a young man his dad finally broke down and bought a gas engine to power their hand crank extractor, in his words: "it was noisy and it was stinky but man did we ever have it made". The times they are a changing.


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## Desert Viking Ranch

rrussell6870 said:


> ... you have used more energy trying to reject the idea of a little work than you would have just rolling up your sleeves and getting it done...


If I had a nickle for every time I have proven this statement to be true, I would be rich. :applause: :thumbsup:

In fact, I could then devote a very large portion of my time to "back seat beekeeping" and "philosiphizing"


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## belliott

Jim Lyons,

I don't have any plans on automating the honey industry or re-inventing the hive. I have done hard and dirty work my whole life, I'm too big and dumb to do anything else. By my own nature I like to tinker and have more tools than any man should have.

The truth of the matter, I am stirring the pot. I find these threads interesting. My favorite threads on this site are generally the ones that involve building something or tearing something up.

Desert Viking - I love those goats. I've been thinking about starting a Boer herd.


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## sqkcrk

belliott said:


> If I was building a moble honey house,I would start with a large enclosed trailer. I would cut holes for a roller table line to load the hives into the trailer. I would place air curtains, blowing compressed air over the roller table to blow bees off the supers. I would place a larger air curtain above and below the opening of the trailer to prevent bees from entering.


And you would have one single use expensive vehicle w/ limited resale value. 

I knew some guys from Guatemala once who had a Panel Van, like an UPS truck, set up w/ extracting equipment. They drove it out to their bee yards and extracted right there. They did it on a nectar flow. Worked for them. I can't imagine this being practical for a US Commercial operation. One would need a semi and trailer, w/ sleeper units for the crew so they could stay out for weeks at a time extracting.

But, it can be done. Whether it is practical or saves on manual labor, I don't think so. Which doesn't mean someone shouldn't try it. 

I know folks who have transported beehives in closed trailers. It's not a good idea, unless you have two refirigeration units, in case one breaks down. But, people have loaded beehives into unrefrigerated containers in the coldest part of the year, here in the North, and shipped them to SC and still had live colonies. It doesn't work as well as an open deck trailer and nets. But it can be done.


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## waynesgarden

Kirk Webster's honey house in Vermont is in a trailer, though I don't know if it is atationary or he moves it around.

Many states require an inspected facility with running water and a septic system where extraction takes place. A mobile extraction trailer wouldn't fly in Maine. Would a commercial operation even want to work in the tight confines of a trailer?

Wayne

Wayne


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## Oldtimer

Sometimes new ideas turn out to be old.


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## sqkcrk

waynesgarden said:


> Kirk Webster's honey house in Vermont is in a trailer, though I don't know if it is stationary or he moves it around.
> 
> Wayne


My honey house was a stationary trailer. It made a really great fire when it burned. since then extracting at someoine elses honeyhouise has been the most practical, for me.


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## Acebird

As a mechanical designer you should learn very quickly in your career that there are very few if any new ideas. The difference between success and failure is usually the execution.


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## Acebird

jim lyon said:


> The first problem is Acebird didnt ask a question. He laid out a fairly detailed proposal for how he felt things should be done.


Jim get over it. There just ideas from a source you don't like. Shoot the proposals down in any way you see fit or add to the ideas to improve the proposals. Detailed proposal? You are kidding.

Belliott, I was thinking of just conveying the frames through the wall lengthwise in and out not the boxes but if the boxes work for you ... If you bring the boxes inside you create more handling and you need more space.

I have a question for the forum. If you blow off the bees prior to going into the honeyhouse how do they know what hive to go to? I am still assuming these are young bees that don't forage. Do they know what hive they are from without foraging? Which box will they go to, the hive at the new location or the old location?

Mark if you recall I did say scale matters. If you are extracting for weeks it would make sense to extract in a central location.


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## honeyshack

Acebird said:


> I have a question for the forum. If you blow off the bees prior to going into the honeyhouse how do they know what hive to go to? I am still assuming these are young bees that don't forage. Do they know what hive they are from without foraging? Which box will they go to, the hive at the new location or the old location?


Either the bees get blown down in a hive...seen that done or as we do it, the super is placed on a stand with a chute and they are blown in front of the hive. Smell of the queen's pheremones takes care of the rest


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## crofter

You might not find too many non oriented nurse bees up in the honey supers .


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## rrussell6870

Aside from all of the other obvious issues with extracting in the bee yard or moving the entire hives to the honey house, here are a few more that you may want to kick around... 

Access to bee yards in a heavy extraction trailer... if it would be large enough to be effective, it would also be too large to get close enough to almost any of my hives... thus once again, you are still having to lift the supers and carry them or set them onto pallets (standard ones, just so we are clear), and use a forklift to carry them to the extraction trailer... where is the gain in that exactly??

You say that it wouldn't be feasible for larger operations, so how exactly would it be feasible for a small operation to justify the cost of a mobile extraction facility??

If the whole purpose was to be more efficient and safe money, where are the savings and how is it faster? I don't know where your workers would come from, but mine would not be happy at all about making extractors rates while having to be out in the field the whole time... its easier on them to load the supers and carry them to the honey house where they can work from there and go straight home when they get off instead of living out of a cooler and a lunch box... thus my work force moral would be down, causing a need to raise rates and after spending so much money on the mobile extraction facility, covering expenses for overnighting the crew, and raising the pay rates for those workers, I still can't see how it would save any time at all... so I would have just wasted a ton of money on something that I can't get rid off...

Lastly, just plain out husbandry... if you were to move the hives themselves, you are risking squashing queens in transit, breaking their protection system that they set up during summer to keep shb and wax moths at bay, over heating them in the sun, most certainly you would have serious robbing issues both at the honey house and when you return the hives to the yard, you would have lost tons of bees both at the yard and at the honey house, your staff would be getting stung heavily and possibly have to wear gear just to extract and certainly to take off the supers (which would be ON THE TRAILER, STILL ON HIVES, MAKING IT MUCH MORE DIFFICULT IN THE FIRST PLACE), and if all of this wouldn't be a big enough pain, you would get less crop in each run, lose countless hives, and have FAR LESS crop IF ANY AT ALL on the next run... so you have costs the outfit a ton of money, a ton of troubles, and have less product to send to the shelves to boot... its a lose/lose scenario...

Hey Oldtimer, you want to give him some idea of how much more productive an outfit that follows simple good husbandry practices can be than a much larger one that gets carried away with standardization? (Don't have to give names of course) ;-)


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## schmism

Acebird said:


> Schmism,
> The scale of the operation will make a huge difference. A thousand hive operation will not and can not do what a 100 hive operation can do and vice verse. To think otherwise is not practical. It is all about logistics. But the belief that you cannot reduce manual labor in a bee keeping operation is like insisting that you have to pick corn by hand. Anything can be mechanized.
> In 10 or 20 years what kind of a workforce will be available to work bees outside of china?


you have got to be a city person who knows little of how things work on a farm. Useing the comparison of picking corn by hand is not accurate to the collection of honey supers. IT would be the equivlant to saying you still have to cut the capings off every frame BY HAND = picking corn by hand. Which in in a large scale production faclity is no longer done.

Even with the largest cattle or poultry operations there are still jobs that have to be done by people. It is a fact of dealing with live animals and not just static parts of a car or pieces of a computer.

So in 10 or 20 years were will we find the people to do these jobs? same place we have found them for the past 10 or 20 or 100 years. if/when there are no jobs to be had, and hay still needs to be stacked in the barn for the beef cattle, or turkeys still need to be artificially inseminated by hand, there will always be people to do those jobs.

that is unless you know something about the population trends for the next 10-20 years which is going to drastically reduce the number of available humans to do jobs in which case.... everything gets easyer not harder.


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## jgd

Me thinks even Albert Einstein had a bad idea or two. And this one is a bad one.
jd


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## crofter

jgd said:


> Me thinks even Albert Einstein had a bad idea or two. And this one is a bad one.
> jd


I am sure he did too, but it seems Albert gave them the internal "reality check" before he spewed them forth. He had the reputation for being a very humble bird.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> As a mechanical designer you should learn very quickly ....


Who RU talking to?


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Mark if you recall I did say scale matters.


Yes, you say lots of things. But, you never say anything specific. You leave everything quite open and vague.

At what point do you think anything you have asked about or suggested makes sense or matters?

Here is an idea I'll throw out there for limiting manual labor in beekeeping. For the sake of efficiency, it may be more efficient for one person to work by themselves at most colony manipulations, such as checking hives for supers or applying medications or mite treatments.

In a 500 hive operation, Laborer A will get X amount of work done in a day. If Laborer A is accompanied by Laborer B, how much more will they get done together? Were they to split up to work seperately, would they seperately get more total work done in a day, or less?

I'll bet thoser w/ no experience will have different answers than those who have lots of experience.


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## sqkcrk

schmism said:


> the beef cattle still need to be artificially inseminated by hand, there will always be people to do those jobs.


Yeah, reminds me that I miss good old CowPollinator. I wonder what happened to him?


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Here is an idea I'll throw out there for limiting manual labor in beekeeping. For the sake of efficiency, it may be more efficient for one person to work by themselves at most colony manipulations, such as checking hives for supers or applying medications or mite treatments.
> 
> .


I definitely have an answer to that one.... at least from our experience. Have tried it both ways numerous times and have come to an answer for most jobs.... but I think I will wait and see what others have to say... wouldn't want to influence anyone. Plus our results may just be peculiar to us or our situation.


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## Bsweet

Although not from a apiary view point, unless the job requires two people for heavy lifting or one to hold and item/animal, most times a lone worker produces better when they have nobody to visit with or to count on to take up the slack. Put two or more people togeather and you get alot of BS and lower production. Jim


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## swarm_trapper

BUT if you take a worker along you don"t have to get the gate.


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## Oldtimer

rrussell6870 said:


> Hey Oldtimer, you want to give him some idea of how much more productive an outfit that follows simple good husbandry practices can be than a much larger one that gets carried away with standardization? (Don't have to give names of course) ;-)


Yes it's true, and Robert and I have had a discussion on this.

Without being too specific ( I live in a small country ), the first few years of my beekeeping career was working for others. The highest producing company was relatively low tech, buying a Kelly Boom was as advanced as we got. The temptation with commercial beekeeping, is to start spending increasing amounts of time fiddling with machinery instead of working actual bees, and I worked for one place that fell into this trap. In the interests of streamlining and mechanising, the actual bee husbandry was lousy, and this was reflected in per hive productivity, and ultimately, profit. Working there was a great experience for me, at least in learning how NOT to do it.

Looking at some commercial beekeeping outfits in my country, there is some link, between higher mechanisation, and lower production. And the gap in some cases is quite high.


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## honeyshack

there is a term for that which was coined by a cost of production analyist for a rural ag newspaper. It is called "machinery-itis". The need to have everything owned by the farm even if it is only used for one or two weeks a year...instead of renting from a neighbor or go without... Or the need to buy new all the time.


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## Acebird

If a honey house is mobile it can be rented and moved to where it is needed, it could be a co-op. Just saying.

Usually when multiple people are doing the same job efficiency goes down but production go up. Profits go up when production goes up. Large companies are extremely inefficient but they make huge sums of money. If you can get the workforce without running out of time on the production line then you might consider yourself golden. If you are happy then you are happy. Can you expand and still pull it off?


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## Acebird

rrussell6870 said:


> Access to bee yards in a heavy extraction trailer... if it would be large enough to be effective, it would also be too large to get close enough to almost any of my hives... thus once again, you are still having to lift the supers and carry them or set them onto pallets (standard ones, just so we are clear), and use a forklift to carry them to the extraction trailer... where is the gain in that exactly??
> 
> You say that it wouldn't be feasible for larger operations, so how exactly would it be feasible for a small operation to justify the cost of a mobile extraction facility??


If you go back to the reference post you will see the hives are already on pallets, no manual lifting or carrying.

The cost of a mobile extraction room should be less than a perminent facility. Usually mobile units do not come under the guidelines of local building codes.


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## Bsweet

Local building codes would probably be small compared to Health dept. regs for a mobile kitchen/facility, then you have D.O.T regs and a class A lic. and comm. insurance on the trailer. Jim


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## waynesgarden

Acebird said:


> If a honey house is mobile it can be rented and moved to where it is needed, it could be a co-op. Just saying.


Are you familiar with the legalities and regulations of operating a honey house? I don't know about New York (and would not be at all confident that you do,) but what you are advising is illegal here in Maine and in many other states. There are State regulations that require, among other things, running hot and cold water and an approved septic system and a site inspection. 

Bad advice. It can not be rented and moved. Just saying.

Wayne


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> If a honey house is mobile it can be rented and moved to where it is needed, it could be a co-op. Just saying.


Yes, yuou are just saying. I will say, I bet you have never been part of a co-op. I just came from a Co-op Mtng and I'm going to do what I can to stay away from the next one. People get so petty when they think they have been cheated out of selling something for which there was no demand.

Your mobile honey house would only work cooperatively if all the cooperative members were also cooperatively working their bees. Otherwise, someone's honey will get extracted late and therefore will be tainted by darker honey. Or, it will be really cold when it is time to extract.

Where is the hot room in your portable honey house? How is it heated? Where does the extracted honey get stored? It would have to be in the middle so the trailer wouldn't fall over. Seems to me.

Seems like others flesh out your ideas for you. Clever.


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## beeware10

what about the empty supers after extracting and the honey. more trips required. this system was used with horses before we had good transportation. to use this system is going back years of progress in beekeeping.


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## Bsweet

A portable honey house??? well lets see, a semi trailer is what 8 ft. wide and 53 ft. long that works out to be 424 sq ft. that is about the size of a 20 ft. by 21 ft. building which is kinda small for a hot room, extraction, filtering, settling and storage/bottling, not to mention the need to kinda almost level the mobile unit to get the honey to flow in the right direction. and I have seen some out yards you could not get a trailer that size close to. Jim


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## rrussell6870

Acebird said:


> If you go back to the reference post you will see the hives are already on pallets, no manual lifting or carrying.


hives don't get extracted ace, only the supers... no matter how far you drive the hives around on a forklift, at some point in time, someone will still have to take the supers off of the hives...


----------



## beeware10

this thread makes me think what dad used to say. "you might better be quiet and let people think you'r stupid rather than talk and let them know you are. sure are a lot of people looking at it though.


----------



## sqkcrk

rrussell6870 said:


> someone will still have to take the supers off of the hives...


Now. There's an idea. Just extract the whole hive. Don't bother to take off supers. Take the whole hive to the honey house and run it thru the Cowen w/ the auto deboxer, brood, bees and all.

Isn't there a system in which "fingers" go down between the frames and uncap comb and then the whole box goes into a Carousel extractor?

Didn't Tom Charnock have a set up where colonies were brought into a wearhouse w/ a screen wall on one end? The hives were dismantled, manually, the honey taken out, brood frames put into boxes and returned to the pallets, a cpl of scoops of bees taken off of the screen and a queen added to the hive and then shipped out. In the mean time the honey taken to be extracted.

Or something like that? A lovely way to work in FL, fully suited. Still can't get away from the manual labor.

Here's another idea of a way to reduce Manwell labor, don't hire any Manwells, only Juans and Carloses and Johns.


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## sqkcrk

beeware10 said:


> sure are a lot of people looking at it though.


Happens all the time when there is a wreck on the hiway. Or a hurricane passes thru VT.


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## lazy shooter

I thought Manuel Labor was a Mexican bandit.


----------



## Acebird

I mentioned this before. The boxes do not go into the extracting room, only the frames. Lets say a full hive is on the left and the empty hive is on the right. Operator removes frames from full suppers and places them on track that goes into extractor house. When box is empty he places that box on the empty hive to the right (which doesn't have any supers until now). When hive on left is empty of supers hive on right has all its supers full of empty frames. It then goes back to the yard.
Honey is stored in 55 gal drums and shipped to Mark where he will put his State approved label in a state approved packaging plant (when he feels like it). The extracting room on wheels is no different than any piece of farm equipment that harvests food. The stringent requirements for processing food don't appear until you get to the packaging plant / bottling plant.

If your state is anal about regulations sell your honey to someone in another state that wants to improve their economy so they can package it and sell it to the consumer anywhere.

These are just suggestions for you to rip apart. Have fun.


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## waynesgarden

Acebird said:


> ..These are just suggestions for you to rip apart. Have fun.


Slow down... Before throwing out still more inane "suggestions," how about investing a modicum of thought to what you post here?

Address the inefficiencies of multiple trips required to move (for no reason) entire hives when a single trip with supers would suffice, the loss of foragers left behind at both the bee yard and the extractor site, the potential loss of the queen, etc, etc, etc. Or better yet, actually try something (or gain some actual knowledge) and report back. 

There must be a 12 Step program for those compelled to pontificate on subjects of which they are ignorant. I think the entertainment value of this thread has run dry. There's a reason the TV show Jackass had such a short run.

Wayne


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## Beezly

Acebird said:


> If your state is anal about regulations sell your honey to someone in another state that wants to improve their economy so they can package it and sell it to the consumer anywhere.
> 
> These are just suggestions for you to rip apart. Have fun.


Here are state guidelines for Georgia, I can get you links is you want:

BASIC REGULATORY REQUIREMENTS FOR LICENSING HONEY PRODUCER

Georgia beekeepers are not required to obtain a Food Sales Establishment License if they process and retail their own honey on their own premises, on a door-to-door retail route, or at an established place of business owned and managed by the producer and the honey is sold directly to a household consumer as the end user (including fairs, festivals, & farmers markets).

All other honey producers would be required to obtain a Food Sales Establishment License through the Georgia Department of Agriculture. This will includes but is not limited to: honey producers selling product for retail, wholesale, and bulk honey producers.

Honey Producers must register their facilities with the FDA to carry out provisions of the Bioterrorism Act unless only selling retail to the end user. Registrants must complete FDA Form 3537 which can be found at: http://www.access.fda.gov/

Seeing how the final part of this is FDA.GOV, I would imagine, although i don't have a zillion posts, that this is in effect for the whole US of A.
Surely you are not suggesting that we break federal law in order to avoid our ANAL government regulations?


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## Beezly

whoops,
meant to tell ya'll that this is from the Georgia beekeeping Associations website under honey facility regulations. I don't think that they mean you can ignore if'n U want.

In order to get the food sales establishment license, you must have a regulated facility to produce.

hopefully i am not breaking a Beesource rule by quoting the link above. Please tell me if i am.
mike


----------



## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> I The extracting room on wheels is no different than any piece of farm equipment that harvests food. The stringent requirements for processing food don't appear until you get to the packaging plant / bottling plant.
> 
> These are just suggestions for you to rip apart. Have fun.


That is a total load of B.S. If you live in a state that requires an inspected, food-safe, certified, extraction and bottling area; a mobile unit must live up to the same requirements. It's not like it is treated any differently just because it happens to be on wheels. Maybe you think you can dodge the requirments by seperating the extraction and bottling processes?? B.S., pure and simple.


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## valleyman

I'm sitting here mad at myself, as in my opinion most ot you that are posting here. I haven't been online much because I had surgery and wasn't a priority. The reason I'm mad at myself is I sat here and read thru 5 pages of post on a subject that didn't even deserve a single reply. 
If you will look at Acebirds join date and his number of posts, and read some of his other posts, you will see that he isn't a beekeeper. He is a know it all, that is on here to spread his intelligence thru the, obviously ineffiecient beekeeping world. I'm sorry but I'm tired of conversing with someone whose only means of communication is talking. If I'm going to spend time on here it is with true intentions of helping the few on here that are less knowledgeable than I, and are listening. 
I guess that there could be some entertainment value to this nonsense, but in my condition I don't need entertainment especially of this sort.
So in conclusion I will get to my main point, and it is why are you experienced, intelligent beekeepers wasting your time arguing someone who isn't listening?


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## waynesgarden

You're absolutely right, Valleyman. It isn't entertaining anymore. It's like a child that doesn't know when to stop. 

Time to make use of the the "ignore" function of this forum.

Wayne


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## sqkcrk

Nabber86 said:


> That is a total load of B.S. Maybe you think you can dodge the requirments by seperating the extraction and bottling processes?? B.S., pure and simple.


Chill Nabber, chill. You can't stay away either, ay?


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## Nabber86

Hi, my name is Nabber and I have a problem ignoring Acetool's trolls.....


----------



## sqkcrk

Hi Nabber. You've taken the first step to recovery. It's a one day at a time thing.

"Put on your red dress baby,
we are a goin' out tonight.
Put on your red dress baby,
we are a goin' out tonight.

Put on your high heeled sneakers, 
put that red wig on yo head,
put on your high heeled sneakers,
put that red wig on yo head.

etc., etc."


----------



## Allen Martens

Acebird

Just buy this system:

http://www.cowenmfg.com/pages.asp?pageid=97418

I'm sure it is fairly inexpensive.


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## Nabber86

That's just plain silly. Ace can build one for vitually nothing out of a galvanized trash can, ceiling fan motor, and some bailing wire and duct tape. I suppose nickel plated gears would be extra.


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## rrussell6870

Ha! Yeah, at a little over a half million bucks, that would sure be cheaper than the usual honey house. Lol. And it has to be gassed up, has three times the wear and tear (tractor, generators, pumps and storage systems), and you would still have to truck the crop back to the "unused" honey house for storage (good thing barrels of honey weigh so much less than honey supers ;-), and you and your workers get to take a lovely vacation of working and living out of a tractor trailer for a month or so! Yep, I can sure see how we would all make more money and not have to work as hard by giving up on what we have learned from our hard work and experience and just listening to ace because he has a hive and reads books, and it only takes him 30 minutes to pull three frames from his hive... he knows efficiency and understands that the larger a company is, the less over head it has, so the more profit it makes, so we should just stop getting upset about his obnoxious attacks on our businesses, management methods, conventional wisdom, and mental capacities, so he can tell us where the entire world has been so wrong and get us heading in the right direction.

Sign me up for the support group or the "AA" (Acetroll Anonymous)..


----------



## sqkcrk

Alright now, this is getting somewhat unwelcoming. It is up to us to reply to serious proposals w/ serious answers. Whatever we see as otherwise we can ignore. I think we should leave Acebird alone for now.


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## Acebird

Allen Martens said:


> Acebird
> 
> Just buy this system:
> 
> http://www.cowenmfg.com/pages.asp?pageid=97418
> 
> I'm sure it is fairly inexpensive.


The concept has already been done for the big guy and you all (Nabber included) think it was a stupid, not thought out idea. And then you come back and show it to me and THEN still make jokes.

Those people at Cowen mush have there head up their rear huh?

For the smaller guy I would concentrate on the extraction process and not the packaging process to be mobile. Once the honey is in a barrel you can do what ever you want with it. Also the barrel does not need to be in the trailer only the extractor. Wash it down before its next batch run. This could be done anywhere.


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## StevenG

Ace, I'm a smaller guy, and I'm insulted by your pontificating. It is time for you to put up or shut up. Tell us how many hives you have, and how you harvested your crop this year. You put great stock in your analytical abilities to solve problems. So, put your ideas to work, and report to us how they work. 
In other words, actually do it. Don't talk, _*do*_. 
How many hives do you have, and how did you process your honey crop? What did you do to make _your_ operation more efficient and cost effective?
Regards,
Steven


----------



## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> The concept has already been done for the big guy and you all (Nabber included) think it was a stupid, not thought out idea. And then you come back and show it to me and THEN still make jokes.
> 
> Those people at Cowen mush have there head up their rear huh?


 
You are missing the point. Just beacuse somebody found a mobile extraction unit for sale on the internet, doesnt prove your point that it is a good idea for the commercial beek. Sure the Cowen mobile extractor is well thought out and a great idea for Cowen, because THEY stand to make a ton of profit if you are foolish enough to purchase one. That's why people are laughing. Get it?

If you are going to take action to reduce labor costs, you have to account for the cost of the equipment to do so. Half-a-million dollars buys a lot of Manuel labor


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Once the honey is in a barrel you can do what ever you want with it. Also the barrel does not need to be in the trailer only the extractor.


Well sure, but you haven't shown us how to eliminate any handling of equipment.

Where would you put the barrel and how would you keep bees out of it?


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## sqkcrk

StevenG said:


> Tell us how many hives you have,
> How many hives do you have, What did you do to make _your_ operation more efficient and cost effective?


He has two. Last I heard. He doubled his work by buying a nuc this last Spring.


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## rrussell6870

No ace... that mobile unit was not intended for large scale operations, but rather for isolated operations where the bee yard is far, far, away.

Oldtimer showed you a pic of a very old unit, but again, these units are only used for odd situations where the few locations are far, far away...like in remote mountains with the intent of harvesting honey that can be clear of human contaminants or produced off of certain plants...

What are you talking about "the barrel"??? Again showing that you have no clue how this process works... do you think we fill one barrel, them pure it out or something?? Our extracting system had 5 turn-downs and a float pump so we filled 5 drums at once... we would fill over 30 in 24 hours and the drums were moved by hand to the dock where the bobcat could grab them and tote them to the semi trailers... when the trailers were full, they left for nebisco and kellogs... drums were returned sometimes when they dropped off more semi trailers to be filled... I think you have still got the scale of commercial honey operations confused... in most of our yards, you would have to be able to extract AND store or ship 20,000 lbs of honey...


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## Beezly

Nabber86 said:


> That's just plain silly. Ace can build one for vitually nothing out of a galvanized trash can, ceiling fan motor, and some bailing wire and duct tape. I suppose nickel plated gears would be extra.


Don't forget the bucket! :lpf:


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## Acebird

Steven, I have two hives and I haven't extracted any honey yet. I am not in business and have no intention of going into business. Isn't this forum about talking and sharing ideas? I am sorry you take offence.


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## Beezly

Acebird said:


> Steven, I have two hives and I haven't extracted any honey yet. I am not in business and have no intention of going into business. Isn't this forum about talking and sharing ideas? I am sorry you take offence.


He is probably confused after reading your post on a separate thread called " what's the deal on goldenrod?" From reading your post, it certainly looks reads that you SOLD "allot" of honey. 
maybe not a legal business, maybe no intention of being a legal business, but a bit confusing with the inference of being in the biz of "selling". :scratch:

I have bad ideas sometimes, I share them sometimes, but when 20 people (and usually it takes MUCH less) share with me that the ideas are bad, i don't continue to try to sway others to my stupid ideas that should have stayed in the depths of my mind in the first place.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Well sure, but you haven't shown us how to eliminate any handling of equipment.
> 
> Where would you put the barrel and how would you keep bees out of it?


You fill through the bung in a closed system. How would bees get into the barrel?

Mark, a cost justification would have to be done on paper to see if a system that I suggest would be beneficial to you or your operation. I don't think you want to divulge every detail of your operation publicly.

You guys are absolutely right. I have no experience what so ever in a beekeeping business. I do have a ton of experience in cutting cost of processes in the medical industry. The way I see it the medical industry is far more regulated then any bee business so it is not like I don't know how to design a clean process.

I make suggestions for all of you to think about. It is not like it would be a benefit to me. I know there is always a resistance to change anything that you are doing. That is natural. One thing I can guarantee is if you make no changes you will have no improvements. If that makes you all happy run with it.

Mark, I am serious about seeing your operation in Sauquoit next season if the offer still stands. I should have the house finished by April so after that I will have time on my hands. When do you extract? August will always be busy for me but I can make time if that is your only extraction schedule.


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## rrussell6870

I think that what Mark was saying is that there is no loss in the system that is already being used that could be offset to something else... before a business can even consider a proposal to alter its operations, it must first see that there is an expense (monetary or resource) that could be cut... how it can be cut is part of the proposal, but IS there anything to cut in the first place is the question??

Btw, its not that you made a dumb suggestion that got people upset, or even that you persisted that it was a "good" suggestion... what gets everyone upset is that you keep downing their knowledge, experience, business practices, and work ethics by "telling" them what they are doing wrong... they know what works, they know every aspect of bee keeping better than you do... so when you ask a question LISTEN to the answers because they are from those that have something to give you... their knowledge... until you learn to close the mouth and open the ears, you will not be able to make an equal contribution of knowledge... dumb questions get answers, dumb suggestions get corrected, but dumb people are those that refuse to listen...


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## Allen Martens

Acebird said:


> The concept has already been done for the big guy and you all (Nabber included) think it was a stupid, not thought out idea. And then you come back and show it to me and THEN still make jokes.


The reason I'm making a joke about it is because I use this setup except my spinner is a cook and beals and just thinking about extracting everything mobile gives me a migraine


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Mark, I am serious about seeing your operation in Sauquoit next season if the offer still stands. When do you extract?


You must have misunderstood me. I don't own an operation in Sauquoit, a friend of mine does. His place is where I get my honey extracted. We just finished the early honey last week and I will start to take off the later honey in 2 or 3 weeks and probably extract in October. W/ Jon's okay, you could come see how things are done. I'll let you know when I am down there extracting.


----------



## Intheswamp

Acebird said:


> Mark if you recall I did say scale matters. If you are extracting for weeks it would make sense to extract in a central location.


His name's Karl, right Roger, who's Mark? And, yes, you're weak Karl, er, Mark...do you agree bird? If you meet bird at Joan's how'bout carrying a 5-gal bucket with you full of water and set it on bird's hood for me and getting him to do a little experiment for me. 

(sorry, I'm just working my way through the thread. I'm with Jim Lyon in agreeing with Wayne that this thread has an entertaining value to it...kinda like the movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"...entertaining, but in a rather strange kind of way...I think it was Nicholson's grin as he was heading to his lombotomy. Wasn't one of the patients name Karl?)

Ed


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## Intheswamp

waynesgarden said:


> There must be a 12 Step program for those compelled to pontificate on subjects of which they are ignorant. I think the entertainment value of this thread has run dry. There's a reason the TV show Jackass had such a short run.
> 
> Wayne


No Wayne, the entertainment value is still there...I just got to this post and busted out laughing knowing what I do about some of bird's other threads.<grin> The 12 step remark got me first, then the "two" punch was the Jackass show comment. bird, were you ever on the Ja..., er, oh nevermind....

Ed


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## EastSideBuzz

sqkcrk said:


> There are people in this Nation who still know how to work and will work, if you know where to find them and how to deal w/ them. Shoot,


Wish I could convince my kids of that. They seem too not understand hard work yet. Hope they get some bosses that can instill that in them. Lord knows I try. I am buying a Swinger so I can do it by myself.


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## Acebird

EastSideBuzz said:


> Wish I could convince my kids of that. They seem too not understand hard work yet. Hope they get some bosses that can instill that in them. Lord knows I try. I am buying a Swinger so I can do it by myself.


Trust me you are not alone. Every business is struggling to get workers at the manual labor level. Mark, mentioned the refuge workforce which I am very familiar with. It doesn't last long. These people are smart. They take menial jobs to get into this country and then they adapt fast and move up the ladder to more advanced jobs. The next batch of refugees will come from Iraq, Afghanistan, and troubled areas of Africa. I don't think the work force will be quite the same as Bosnia.


----------



## Acebird

rrussell6870 said:


> but IS there anything to cut in the first place is the question??


If you are still doing things the way your father did then there is a 99% chance for improvement.

If I have been telling someone "they are doing it wrong" I apologise. I don't think I have. I think out loud with an endless supply of ideas and then try to support them. If you think they are silly or dumb then don't do them or listen to me but don't try to stop someone else from thinking about them. They may come up with an idea different then what I suggested that is better then both our ways. That is progress in the making.


----------



## Oldtimer

Well you've been offered a chance to work in a commercial environment extracting some honey. Be interesting to see what you think of this thread after you've tried that.

Since others have made you the offer, I'd recommend you try for being allowed to work some bees with a commercial beekeeper also. Then you'll get more of the whole picture.

AceBird, it's also obvious the thread is pretty negative towards your idea and you seem to think you must defend it. I'm going to see if I can change where you are standing, might help throw a different light on it.
You design medical engineering products or something? I've never done that. Howzabout I tell you I've got a better more efficient way than anything you have ever done. I explain it and because of your experience you see some flaws in my idea, realise it will not work, and you tell me so. So I say to you that "Most businessman are willing to discuss ways of reducing manual labor", but you are not. I insist my idea is better than anything you've ever designed, and you are just "resistant to change". I dig in and defend my position. After a few more attempts to explain things to me, you put you head in your hands, shrug, and start making jokes of my unworkable idea.


----------



## honeyshack

Acebird said:


> If you are still doing things the way your father did then there is a 99% chance for improvement.



In Agriculture, so not true. With the "vast" improvements made since the way my husbands father did things, costs have gone up. Some ideas have great merit. Some just drove the cost of production up and slowed things down. Ag is much different than any other operation because first and formost you are dealing with family in most cases, and family is the work force. The secondary reason is, machinery-itis, the need for every machine which is costly to get the job done, and third is cost. Ag is the only industry where the prices are not known until you sell, or later. And it is the only industry where the owner can not set the price. In the cattle industy, when you sell your calves in the fall, 5-10 guys sit in the front of a ring and bid on your cattle. In 5 minutes all of your hard work is told how much it is worth. From there, you pay your bills and hope for a brighter year next year.


----------



## WLC

Let me run this up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes...

I have seen 'Comb Honey' for sale locally. However, I can't say if it's a viable market for most honey producers. 

That being said, would producing comb honey be a viable alternative to extracting honey for some smaller operations?

Sooo, you might save some labor and expense associated with running a typical honey house because some of the comb honey systems, though a bit pricey, can go from honey comb to package in what seems to be a few steps.

If you could find a way to avoid lugging entire supers to the honey house and do your 'comb honey' square or round harvesting and packaging in the field...


----------



## deknow

Acebird said:


> I think out loud with an endless supply of ideas and then try to support them.


...and that is the problem. You would present much better "ideas" if instead of trying to support "an endless supply", you tried your best to shoot down your own ideas before presenting them to others.[/quote]

deknow


----------



## lazy shooter

All across West Texas one sees small towns that are in decline. Many of them are just painful to view. One of the main causes of this is the development of the modern day tractor and its implements. I am a weekend rancher, meaning that I do not depend on the ranch for my subsistence. When I was a boy, in the 50's, we ranched and farmed 65 acres of row crops. That 65 acres required two John Deere tractors. I now have a friend that cultivates 1,600 acres of corn and cotton with one tractor. He does all work himself from the comfort of an air conditioned tractor. In the old days, he would have needed six or more tractors and the hired hands to go with them. Modern day tractors and implements are terribly expensive, but they cut way down on what the accounts call "head count."


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> Let me run this up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes...
> 
> 
> That being said, would producing comb honey be a viable alternative to extracting honey for some smaller operations?
> 
> 
> ...


If you can get a good price for it... I would suspect it would be viable thing to do. I have never done it... but to me it appears to be much more labor intensive that just extracting. But with that said... if the price is right... might be good. Just don't expect less labor. (Dang... here I am speculating about something I have never tried... must be one of those "System Guys")


----------



## Charlie B

The cure for responding to Ace is to realize he's a first year "bee-haver" with only two hives and an enormous ego. He likes tell everyone what they're doing wrong in order to feed that enormous ego. Consider this before you waste your time responding. The only reason he started this thread was he was getting blistered in the original one and wanted to start over.

Ace, get some help buddy. I don't think you're a bad person, but you really do need help.


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## WLC

hpm:

I don't know much about it either.

But, if you look in your catalog at the comb honey kits that are available, you'll notice that in some you can remove the '1/2 comb' package directly from the super and simply put on the lid and label.

It seems to be a way to avoid having to build and equip a honey house. I can't say if it's easy to reload the 1/2 comb supers in the field. But, I think that direct packaging in the field is a big plus.

Of course, the catch is that you are also selling the comb along with the honey.

Does it save labor compared to extracting supers in a honey house? I think that it might as long as you are taking empty comb packs and lids to the hives, and filled comb honey pacs w/ lids back.

If you still have to transport supers out and in, then I would say probably not.

Per super: (Mann Lake p. 31, Hogg Half Comb Honey Super Kit-10 Frame);

The complete 1/2 comb super costs $119.95.

The conversion kit (no super) $99.95.

Complete refills $89.95.

Cassette labels $9.95.

If you figure that each of the above is in sets of 40, you can get an idea if it makes sense for your operations.

Frankly, the margins look kinda tight.

That's $130 per super to start!

$100 to refill each super!

With 40 cassettes per super, you've got a $3.25-$2.50 'nut' per cassette/package to crack.


----------



## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> hpm:
> 
> 
> 
> But, if you look in your catalog at the comb honey kits that are available, you'll notice that in some you can remove the '1/2 comb' package directly from the super and simply put on the lid and label.
> 
> k.


Sounds like what you are referring to is what I think of as "Ross Rounds". I do not know if it would work in your area. I have heard that to make Ross Rounds requires a very strong flow. But guess one never knows till one tries. I believe one of the originators is on here as a member and so might answer some questions. I suspect it could be something that would appeal to many people and if it would work in your area might be a real labor saver. But you would have to get a good price.


----------



## WLC

The Hogg 1/2 comb kit doesn't need foundation, it uses waxed cassettes/packages.

Either way, if they really wanted to save labor, the supers would have to open up on one side and allow for the frames to be slid out without having to unstack supers.

I'm recovering from my third hernia, so I can appreciate that kind of convenience.


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## Nabber86

Well since anybody on this forum can furnish advice on any subject (especially areas that they know little or nothing about), allow me to play the role of the forum idiot and talk out loud about cut comb honey.


Compared to bulk honey, cut comb is a packaging and storage nightmare. Once extracted, honey can be stored and transported easily in totes, drums, bottles, etc. How would an operator go about packaging, storing, and shipping hundreds of supers worth of cut comb? That would require a lot of space to stack thousands of flimsy plastic containers of flimsy cut comb. Probably need refrigeration to keep the wax months at bay and keep the comb sections from running, melting, or otherwise deteriorating to a point of being unmarketable. 


There is not a lot of wholesale demand for cut comb (compared to bulk honey), due to the packaging and storage problems listed above.


Once you pull off the nice white comb, you will have a good portion (probably more than the cut comb) of dark comb in the lower supers and dark honey from late fall flows. Nobody wants dark cut comb. The dark honey and comb will have to be extracted anyway. 


Ross Rounds = another great and well thought out idea for the people who make Ross Rounds, not so much for the people who purchase them. They are probably OK for a side-liner who can sell the rounds at a superpremium price, but a commercial operator would go bankrupt trying to convert to Ross Rounds.


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## WLC

Wholesale cut comb? Hold your horses.

I was thinking about a small operator who didn't want to lug supers around more than necessary and perhaps might want to sell comb honey locally. Also, perhaps they don't have the 'Doh, Rey, Me' to come up with a honey house (or the truck to transport honey supers for extraction).

Regardless, until we hear from the folks who have experience with comb honey...


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## Nabber86

OK, it would probably work better for a side-liner or hobbiest. Of course on that scale, a reduction in labor cost isnt much of a concern from an economic standpoint. If you are defining labor as physical work that you have limit due to health problems (bad back, hernia, etc.), that is a differnt story. 

And I do have experience with cut comb. It is a PITA, but sells for almost double what you get for an equal amout of honey. However at some point there is only so much cut comb you can effectively deal with (I have no problem storing a couple of 5-gallon buckets of honey in my basement. An equivalent amount of cut comb would be completely overwhelming).


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## WLC

There is a difference between 'cut comb' and 'Ross Rounds'/'Bee-O-Pac'.

I can see how actual cut comb is messy. The capped comb honey that's made already inside the packages that are supplied with the kits shouldn't be as messy.

Are you saying that package 1/2 comb honey systems have problems? Or, are you referring to 'cut comb'?


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> That being said, would producing comb honey be a viable alternative to extracting honey for some smaller operations?
> 
> harvesting and packaging in the field...


A friend of mine, who used to run 2,000 cols, runs 80 cols all for comb honey, none for extraction. His one yard is right cheek to jowl w/ his shop, so he carrys his supers full into the building for disassembling and packaging.

Were he to do it out in the yard, some days he would get wet, but everyday he would have to contend w/ bees in the packages.

Like chems in hives, intelligent beekeepers of all stripes, from small scale to commercial, try to limit/reduce labor. Labor costs. Having the right Laborer can pay, but you have to be willing to work.

I believe that the most succesful beekeepers I know work as hard, if not harder, than their bees. Plus, they work smarter.

I have heard of studies which showed how many calories, or energy, it takes to produce an item, from the iron ore in the ground to the finished product. There may be different ways of expending that energy, those calories, but expend them you must. Some Law of Physics or something, I believe. Thermo Dynamics maybe. I don't know.


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## Nabber86

I guess technically I consider cut comb and Ross Rounds to be the same product, just in different packaging. I imagine that RR would be alot easier to handle, but dont know because I have never used them. The bigest problem I have wirh RR is the cost (even though cut comb is a mess, the convience factor of RR isnt worth the cost).


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## hpm08161947

You are right. We had better wait till someone who knows these products steps up to Bat. I believe Mark B. (Sqkcrk) markets a cut comb product... not sure he produces it though. [email protected] (if I get the name correct) is on this forum and I am sure could wax eloquent about RR. There is also a commercial outfit of some size up in Alberta that markets and produces RR. I believe it is the same guy that wrote "Bad Beekeeping". I would be willing to bet that there is a real market for these cut comb/package comb products.... at least for the sideliner.


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## sqkcrk

hpm08161947 said:


> I believe one of the originators is on here as a member and so might answer some questions.


No, I could be wrong, but, I believe, Tom Ross is dead. If not, sorry Tom. The person who you are thinking of is Lloyd Spear. He owns Ross Rounds. Though I have heard he is interested in selling.


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## Oldtimer

A lot of good points about selling comb honey, and they are the reason it 1. costs more for the consumer, and 2. we don't see more of it for sale.

To sell comb honey there are two basic options, cut full combs into chunks, or go for some kind of ross round type system. However, either of those is a lot more labor intensive than the time it takes to extract a box of honey in a modern extracting plant. Remember if you cut a comb, there is the second stage of the process, having to re-foundation the comb before next use.

The other thing is you can't really get away from extracting even if you produce a lot of comb honey. If doing cut comb, some of the combs come out less than perfect look wise, ( uneven, broken burr, etc. ) and have to be extracted. With Ross Rounds or similar, the bees are very reluctant to work the small little combs, and often would rather leave the box empty and swarm. The way to get best results is the put the box of sections under a normal box of honey, during a strong flow. But this means you'll get both types of honey. During a weak flow the bees may well ignore the box and you will get a lot less honay than if standard supers had been run.


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## WLC

"A friend of mine, who used to run 2,000 cols, runs 80 cols all for comb honey, none for extraction. His one yard is right cheek to jowl w/ his shop, so he carrys his supers full into the building for disassembling and packaging.

Were he to do it out in the yard, some days he would get wet, but everyday he would have to contend w/ bees in the packages."

sqkcrk:

I would think that some kind of blower/compressed air nozzle would make taking the supers out and in unnecessary for 1/2 comb packages.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> Wholesale cut comb? Hold your horses.
> 
> Regardless, until we hear from the folks who have experience with comb honey...


My experience is in buying and selling it, not making it. The guy I buy from is not having a good year, just like me.

My supplier makes comb honey in medium depth supers, w/ three frames in line where on frame would have been in the original box. He builds his own frames from slabwood from a local mill. He uses a narrow strip of foundation as a guide for the bees to build their comb from. He has partitions between each frame so bowed combs aren't as much a problem as they were before partitioning. He packages each Mini-frame Comb in a plastic clamshell deli tray.

Last year I paid $4.50 each for these Mini-Frames. I sell them for $6.00. They are about one pound or more in weight. But I don't sell them by weight. It isn't required, as it is w/ liquid honey. At least in NY State.

They sell really well in the Green Mkts in NYC, from what I have heard. I don't know what they sell for there. I would suspect $9.00 or $10.00.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> sqkcrk:
> 
> I would think that some kind of blower/compressed air nozzle would make taking the supers out and in unnecessary for 1/2 comb packages.


"Possble, possble." But I would think doing so effectively would be cost prohibitive. What sort of effective blower type apparatus do you imagine?


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## Oldtimer

Lazy Shooter, I'm with you on the improved mechanisation of farming / cropping. But driving a huge tractor to plough, or harvest a crop, is different than working a beehive, which will be a LOOOONG time before we get a machine that can inspect a hive to see if it is wanting to (for example) swarm, and then perform the nessecary manipulations.

However, in the time frame you are talking about for the increased mechanisation of your farm, there have been probably similar increases in the mechanisation of extracting honey. We have not stayed the same as our Grandads did it. But the origional idea of this thread, to my mind, was not wrong for suggesting more mechanisation, but the way he wanted to work the bees just was inefficient, and would have been incredibly damaging to the beehives, if they survived at all. It was the method of bee husbandry that is a bad plan.


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## WLC

I would guess that a shop type compressed air tank (on wheels) would do.


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## sqkcrk

Maybe. I would still rather do things the way my buddy does things. That is to take the honey away from the hive where bees can't get to it.

I don't care what kind of compressed air system you have, if you take the last crop away when robbing is likely, you will be fighting the bees for their honey the whole time. No fun. Not worth it.

Keep thinking.


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## belliott

sqkcrk said:


> "Possble, possble." But I would think doing so effectively would be cost prohibitive. What sort of effective blower type apparatus do you imagine?


I have a small C02 bottle,similar to those used on paint ball guns. They sell them at Lowes and they can power a nail gun for a couple of days. I have mine regulated down to 25 psi for blowing out boilers, condensate lines and blowing dirt out of anything that needs it. It would be more than adequate for blowing bees off frames and it can be worn on a belt.


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## sqkcrk

Try it out and let us know how well it works for you.

One thing for sure is I will never suggest any of these ideas to my friend. He wouldn't appreciate it. But, y'all are welcome to try them.


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## WLC

sqkcrk:

In the 1/2 comb honey systems, all you have to do is put on the lids for the 4 capped cassettes/packages per frame. If you have to, you can blow bees off with air.

Now if you're talking about harvesting 1/2 comb packages during a dearth...

why would anyone do that?

Regardless, maybe there is no way to save labor while working bees. At least that what some of you seem to be saying.


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## hpm08161947

WLC.. I gather you trying to come up with a way to avoid lifting that super. And you are going to be dealing with 3-5 hives on a roof top in Manhatten... right? You would be popping these 1/2 frame... 1/3 frames out of a super and blowing the bees off and popping the frames into a maybe a cooler before taking them back to your place to work on removing the comb? I can see how the bees would be a real problem... you probably do not want to... but using beego in conjunction with that blower might help. I assume you are not talking about cutting the comb from the frame while out on you roof top apiary.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> sqkcrk:
> 
> Now if you're talking about harvesting 1/2 comb packages during a dearth...
> 
> why would anyone do that?
> 
> Regardless, maybe there is no way to save labor while working bees. At least that what some of you seem to be saying.


I don't know why you brought up dearth. Why would anyone try to produce comb honey on a dearth.

There are plenty of ways to save labor in beekeeping. One simply has to keep bees and figure out what works best for you. Most of the ideas suggested in this Thread make little sense to most of us who do what we do and know hwo to work bees, extract crops of honey and etc. 

I wouldn't dream of telling a NYC beekeeper how to keep bees on a tenament roof top. But, I might suggest a method or technique or ask about why something isn't done a certain way.

Mostly it takes work. No way around that. How much is up to who is doing the work.


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## rrussell6870

Acebird said:


> If you are still doing things the way your father did then there is a 99% chance for improvement.
> 
> If I have been telling someone "they are doing it wrong" I apologise. I don't think I have. I think out loud with an endless supply of ideas and then try to support them. If you think they are silly or dumb then don't do them or listen to me but don't try to stop someone else from thinking about them. They may come up with an idea different then what I suggested that is better then both our ways. That is progress in the making.


You could not be more wrong about that...(which is very impressive considering your posts)... if you read some of my other posts that describe the methods of taking off supers, extracting, and returning, you would see that the "old school" process cost a tiny fraction of the average cost of most operations today, produced thousands of pounds of honey in a day, and most importantly, it got the freshly extracted supers right back on the bees to be filled again in short order thus providing more to extract and better care for the bees... leading to averages of around 300#s per hive in a 22,000 hive operation... with six staff members working in two crews of three... you do the math and show me where YOU could have improved his operation even by 1%, much less 99%...

As to your second paragraph... read your first one again... you are not simply throwing out ideas... you are insinuating quite bluntly that the tried and true methods that this industry has developed are poorly devised and that you can just buy one hive and one nuc and suddenly you are able to straighten up all of us idiots that have been stupidly running ourselves in circles...


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## WLC

hpm:

No, no. Not me! I do not eat midtown Manhattan honey! I leave it for the bees. We just take samples now and again. That's it.

I'm bringing up the 1/2 comb honey systems vs honey extraction as a way to save labor.

Maybe there is no way to avoid bringing honey supers into the shop? Even if all you have to do is put a lid on a cassette filled with capped 1/2 comb. Of course, you do have to lift supers to get to them.

If you look at the Bee-O-Pac Comb Honey System on page 18 of your Dadant catalog, you might say that you should be able to put a lid on a filled section at the hive, and you should also be able to replace the cassette at the same time. Otherwise, where's the savings in labor or money?

But, perhaps there's no way to avoid setting off a robbing frenzy when doing that.


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## WLC

'I wouldn't dream of telling a NYC beekeeper how to keep bees on a tenament roof top.'

Neither would I. My bees are on a sizeable rooftop garden. You know, the kind designed by environmental architects? The funny thing is that the hives are the best things there. Everyone enjoys spending time watching the bees.

I'd still like to hear from the 1/2 comb honey cassette/package folks on the subject of 1/2 comb honey cassettes as a labor saving method of honey production.

No, I don't mean cut comb.


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## sqkcrk

Time for another Thread then?

I'm glad to have seen that the two factions which seemed to be in competition for some bees in a tree branch worked things out. The guy w/ the most appropriate equipmenmt got the bees w/ agreementy to share them next spring?


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## WLC

Here's a link to the Hogg half comb site:

http://www.beebehavior.com/hogg_cassettes.php

It looks like the Hogg system does allow one to put lids on at the hive, which also mitigates wax moth issues.

Also, it's frameless!

So, I'm satisfied that the Hogg half come cassette system is one possible way to help reduce labor for some beekeeping operations.

I don't think that the same applies to other 1/2 comb or cut comb systems. You still have to bring supers back and forth.

Of course, the question becomes: do I have to go out the the hives more often to harvest because of the smaller 'Illinois' supers?

So, even though you're bringing out cassettes and lids out, and 1/2 comb honey cassettes sealed with lids back, you'd have to do it more often.

Hmmm.


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## sqkcrk

It takes what it takes. But, it may be worth it. If doing what it takes is worth the doing, and especially if one enjoys it, it isn't work, it's recreation.

So, maybe the best way to reduce Labor in beekeeping is to change the attitude of the one doing the work to an attitude of enjoyment. 

That's where working across from, or along side of, someone who really knows what they are doing, and enjoys doing it, comes in handy. I enjoy working w/ some people so much I will set aside my own work to work for them, at times. If and when I can.


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## WLC

Well, it won't seem so much like work if you have the right attitude.

But, since we're talking about reducing labor, let's see if I can list how the Hogg cassette system might save labor:

No honey house to equip or maintain.

No need to store and wax moth proof drawn frames from honey supers because the Hogg system doesn't use drawn frames.

No need to lug supers back and forth. Just empty cassettes and lids out, and finished 1/2 comb cassettes in.

Well, I think that the Hogg 1/2 comb system has some positive ways to save labor, even though it's only 'on paper'.

But, I can see that there might be a need for more trips to the yard because of the smaller Illinois sized supers used by the Hogg system.

The literature says it takes 2-5 days during a good flow to fill a super w/ 1/2 comb cassettes.


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## sqkcrk

Yup, that's the thing about any comb honey system. You either have to work it or throw them on and take what you get, swarming and all.

I wish I could get my hands on Ray Churchill's article oin Comb Honey Production. It may be in archived editions of Bee Culture. I think he wrote and published it in the 1980s or 90s maybe.

He, and his Grandson, made something like 200lbs of comb honey off of one colony of bees. He started off w/ a strong two story colony, reduced it to one box of brood and a good excluder. He probably went thru the brood box every two weeks or sooner cutting out queen cells. Lots of work, imo. There's more to it, of course.

If one is going to do comb honey right, it takes working the hive to maximize production. Otherwise, it's a crap shoot and one has to be satisfied w/ what one gets.

The Hoag 1/2 frames may seem like alot less lifting at any one time. But fewer visits? Maybe not.


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> But, since we're talking about reducing labor, let's see if I can list how the Hogg cassette system might save labor:
> 
> .


At least on paper it looks like a labor reducer, but I think there are some special techniques to produce a good flow of cut comb. I have read that these... Hogg - RR type supers have a tendency to make strong hives in a good flow Swarm. That said... the Hogg does look interesting - Who sells Hogg Systems?


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## WLC

Mann Lake sells retail and the Hogg site sells bulk wholesale.

I think that it's likely that we're squeezing the balloon. Squeeze here, it pops out there.

But, you must admit, if you want to avoid extracting frames, or driving them back and forth for someone else to extract for you, it might be doable.

I think that the management issues are the real downside though.

You'd have to spend some time looking through the Hogg site to get a feel for them. Have you ever heard of the Juniper system?


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> You'd have to spend some time looking through the Hogg site to get a feel for them. Have you ever heard of the Juniper system?


Well now that I have been looking over your "Hogg Site" I have. Seems like "GRANT" from MO... (A member here) using a similar (but somewhat simpler) system to this "Juniper system".... he may even be using this "Ray Churchill System". I am beginning to think that the manipulation of these hives is where the labor comes in.


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## slickbrightspear

freeze your comb for about 72 hours and you do not have to worry about wax moths either.


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## Nabber86

WLC - If you only have a few hives and you really want to reduce the work invloved in harvesting honey (heavy lifting), why dont you just harvest a couple of frames of honey at a time, then crush and strain? That would be simplest method and would save you several hundred dollars to boot (cost of purchasing, shipping, maintaining, and reloading a comb harvesting system).


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## WLC

Yes Nabber. I'm foundationless and set up to do just that. 

However, I'm just raisng the issue of a system like the Hogg 1/2 comb for reducing labor when producing a honey product.

I don't think that one can avoid heavy lifting when harvesting honey unless you are using topbars or long hives.


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## Acebird

Hey look at this thread go while I was gone...:thumbsup:

And all the while I am catching up on the last four pages I'm thinking like nabber, crush and strain maybe, even at the hive location. Some people asked for the comb honey at the fair but they didn't want the pucks. they wanted it in jars with honey around it. Hard to please everyone.

You are not alone WLC many hobbyist would be interested in a system that doesn't involved heavy lifting. If any commercial beeks ever get hit with a Workman's comp case they will buy in real quick too.


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## Oldtimer

You build one Ace, we'll all buy it.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> If any commercial beeks ever get hit with a Workman's comp case they will buy in real quick too.


Is that what happens in your industry when someone gets hurt on the job? I doubt it. Isn't that what Worker's Comp is for? So one doesn't have to make rash decisions to completely rework their business?

This is another one of those statements which indicate you not only don't have experience in the beekeeping industry, but it appears you don't have experience w/ your own employees. That's the way it looks to me.


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## jean-marc

WLC

In the past I've made plenty of Ross Rounds. Lots of labour. One difficulty is that some buyers expect perfect Rounds. The bees can make them perfect in very good flows. Trouble is when you harvest them, you may realise that oops, although the bees have done 98% of the work on them, that last little bit , or more has to be done in order for the Round to be marketable. That means having to return them to the hive so they can just finish capping them off. The tendency is that the center ones are finished and as you go outwards they are less and less finished. It's a lot of handling. It could be suitable for the one man show with a maximum of 300 hives. It would take time to develop such a market. One advantage is you don't need a very large shop to process the crop. You might need a large freezer to store the crop if it can't be sold as it is harvested.

Jean-Marc


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## WLC

jean-marc:

What I've noticed about the description of the Hogg 1/2 comb system is that it uses cassettes instead of frames that may allow for not only putting a lid on finished cassettes at the hive, but would also allow for 'restacking' unfinished cassettes back into the super at the yard.

It is a different system than the others I've seen in the catalog.

I can see from what I've read of the kind of management that's required that it would take more work at the hives including making queenless hives and alot of shaking of bees to make strong hives suitable for 1/2 comb honey production.

I'm not sure if this system requires freezing to kill off wax moth larvae because, according to the Hogg site, wax moth eggs can be excluded by putting the lid on the finished cassettes at the hive when harvesting.

It would be nice if we could hear from someone who uses Hogg cassettes for 1/2 comb production.
Perhaps that would allow for a comparison of the labor involved with this system in comparison to a standard honey house.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> It would be nice if we could hear from someone who uses Hogg cassettes for 1/2 comb production.
> Perhaps that would allow for a comparison of the labor involved with this system in comparison to a standard honey house.


As you have called for already and no one has replied. Perhaps if you started another Thread about Hogg Cassettes you might get the input you seek.


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## hpm08161947

Some of the "voices from the past" - are talking about Hogg and RR over here.....
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?213145-Ross-rounds-or-Hogg-Cassettes&highlight=Hogg+Cassettes


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Is that what happens in your industry when someone gets hurt on the job? I doubt it. Isn't that what Worker's Comp is for? So one doesn't have to make rash decisions to completely rework their business?


Just saying Mark. In most industries 50 pounds is the limit for manual lifting before a device is required or the frequency of lifts are limited. Looking at the numbers from a resent post; 300 pound hives, 22,000 hives, 6 workers is a lot of lifting. I would assume they are not shallows. With deeps weighing in at #90, or mediums weighing in at #60 that is a free lunch for the ambulance chasers. The workman's comp case only gets it started. It doesn't matter if the individual agreed to do the lifting once the lawyer shows up. I think the number or severity of the cases will also affect your future premiums. 

Being small awards you some protection but keep in mind the risks are real. We have more lawyers in this country then we have jobs.


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## Acebird

jean-marc said:


> WLC
> 
> In the past I've made plenty of Ross Rounds. Lots of labour. One difficulty is that some buyers expect perfect Rounds. The bees can make them perfect in very good flows. Trouble is when you harvest them, you may realise that oops, although the bees have done 98% of the work on them, that last little bit , or more has to be done in order for the Round to be marketable. That means having to return them to the hive so they can just finish capping them off. The tendency is that the center ones are finished and as you go outwards they are less and less finished. It's a lot of handling. It could be suitable for the one man show with a maximum of 300 hives. It would take time to develop such a market. One advantage is you don't need a very large shop to process the crop. You might need a large freezer to store the crop if it can't be sold as it is harvested.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Suppose the frame / hive was round and not rectangular the pucks could be placed in the center and the outside left for the bees. That might increase the chances that the pucks were always filled if there was an outside ring of comb.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> In most industries 50 pounds is the limit for manual lifting before a device is required or the frequency of lifts are limited.


A. This is agriculture. I would maintain that what is "standard" "In most industries" is not necassarily so in the Beekeeping Industry. Of course, like any industry or business, hiring the right people is of paramount importance. And one reason I don't have employees.

Remind me not to let you do any work when you come to visit. 

B. One doesn't lift 300lb hives. That's what the machines are for.

C. Anybody w/ more and more recent experience than I have had w/ Deeps full of honey who can say w/ precision what a deep full of honey weighs? I don't think it is 90lbs. More like 60, maybe.

D. Take a beekeeper to Court on Workers Comp charges and you will have unemployment checks following, for a while. If it is too hot in the kitchen, get out.

E. Yes, most commercial beekeepers that I work w/ use mediums or deeps, but mostly mediums. For efficiency sake.

F. So far I haven't seen any devices which can remove boxes of honey freom hives and place them on pallets. Maybe you should put some effort into designing something like that.


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## sqkcrk

Walked a cpl hundred feet across the road to my building. Loaded 8 five gallon buckets of honey onto a wearhouse pallet. Picked it up w/ my Bobcat skidsteer loader and drove it over to my house. Carried two buckets at a time up three steps into the house until all 8 were in the Packing room. Manually dumped 4 buckets of honey into my Maxant bottling tank for straining and bottling.

Sure there are ways of doing what I do, w/ 28,000lbs of honey annually, which would require less labor. But mostly it would be climbing into the Bobcat and carrying the Honey up three stairs. Under my circumstances.


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## WLC

sqkcrk:

In your case, since you already have an operational honey house, it might not make sense to try something like Hogg 1/2 comb cassettes (w/ exceptions) because you've already made the investment in equipment.

As for filled 1/2 comb tending to be found in the center of the super...
with Hogg cassettes, you can put back the ones that aren't finished and harvest the finished ones, w/o having to bring them back to the shop. (Remember-no frames.)

By the way, I can still lift significant weight to waist level w/o worry. 

What I'm trying to determine is can you sell a honey product in a small operation (like one that produces nucs only) that can avoid some of the labor and expensive assets that really aren't warranted in certain cases.

Also, are there any other systems out there that reduce labor? By system, I mean ones that are recognized by the industry.



Acebird:

The difference between what I'm exploring (and your ideas) is that this is a system that a beekeeper has developed and marketed.

We just don't know if it actually saves labor (and cost).


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## odfrank

A suggestions from a small time sideliner
One item I use is a lift box truck, also called a hooklift truck. It's dump hoist is made by Stellar Industries. I use it primarily for my landscape business but it also comes in handy for the bees. I have two debris boxes, a flatbed with sides, a flatbed with 16 hives situated on it permanently and a slam bang dump bed with folding sides which we also use for pulling honey. We can set the bee blown supers on pallets, wheel them into the truck bed, strap the piles down, and hoist up the bed. Reverse back at the honey house. This eliminates four lifts by hand of the crop. 
1. up onto the bed
2. up onto a stack
3. down off the stack on to the bed
4. down onto a stack on the ground
The 16 hive "bee bed" was an expensive luxury, so that every few years when the zoning officer comes around I can move the hives without lifting. The initial expense of the hoist, $15000+, is recouped over time with the labor savings and convenience of a truck that can do multiple jobs.

Beebed with screened pallets under construction:









Truck with bed half dropped:


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> sqkcrk: What I'm trying to determine is can you sell a honey product in a small operation ...


Yes, you can. And I think I already told you where to sell it. The Green Mkts. Should sell well.


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## WLC

Yes, I do know that. Although I haven't looked around lately.

The big if is still that if the honeycomb isn't fully capped in the 1/2 cell cassette, you might get stuck with some pricey cassettes/supers. 

That would be like investing in a fully equiped honey house, but then experiencing years of dearths.


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## sqkcrk

Life is a crap shoot, at times. I wouldn't go heavily into comb honey production or build a honey house w/out experience. Maybe, like me, you might find out that paying someone else to have a honey house and do custom extracting is more to your liking and beneficial to the pocketbook.


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## WLC

What really struck me about the Hogg 1/2 comb cassette system was the 'paradigm shift' from frames to frameless supers.

My gut tells me that there's a real potential for a different kind of beekeeping with a cassette based frameless system.

Now if they could just make those cassettes and lids out of polypropylene...


----------



## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> What really struck me about the Hogg 1/2 comb cassette system was the 'paradigm shift' from frames to frameless supers.
> ..


What really struck me was their expense. Seem inordinately expensive. Must be marked up awfully high over the cost of manufacture.


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## WLC

For one super, containing 40 cassettes, it's about $3.50 a cassette!

However, the fact that Hogg was able come up with a cassette system that replaces frames means that cassettes could be used for brood as well.

As for the price tag per cassette, I would say the $3.50 is retail, not wholesale.

The real issue is this: can someone come up w/ a cassette based whole hive system that's competitively priced and gives one a distinct advantage over the current frame based Lang?


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> A. This is agriculture. I would maintain that what is "standard" "In most industries" is not necassarily so in the Beekeeping Industry. Of course, like any industry or business, hiring the right people is of paramount importance. And one reason I don't have employees.
> 
> Remind me not to let you do any work when you come to visit.


If you don't have any employees you don't have any cost justification for labor. I can physically lift more than my back can take. I won't be doing any lifting. It isn't worth the risk.



> So far I haven't seen any devices which can remove boxes of honey freom hives and place them on pallets. Maybe you should put some effort into designing something like that.


There are plenty of lifting devices available but all would be slower than a human picking one box at a time. That is why I was trying to come up with a way of taking the whole hive and then picking the frames out at the extraction location. Handling the boxes empty would be a cake walk.
If you feel it would be better to take all the suppers at once and leave the brood boxes in place that may be another possibility. I suppose the issue is still getting rid of the bees.


----------



## rrussell6870

Acebird said:


> Just saying Mark. In most industries 50 pounds is the limit for manual lifting before a device is required or the frequency of lifts are limited. Looking at the numbers from a resent post; 300 pound hives, 22,000 hives, 6 workers is a lot of lifting. I would assume they are not shallows. With deeps weighing in at #90, or mediums weighing in at #60 that is a free lunch for the ambulance chasers. The workman's comp case only gets it started. It doesn't matter if the individual agreed to do the lifting once the lawyer shows up. I think the number or severity of the cases will also affect your future premiums.
> 
> Being small awards you some protection but keep in mind the risks are real. We have more lawyers in this country then we have jobs.


You say this as if it is a health threat to do this kind of work... it is not... no it is not for everyone as mark pointed out... our guys build insurance and great strength from this type of work... they do not complain about the lifting, they welcome it... but they were selected because of their work ethics and drive... these guys use our weight room every morning and stay late to hit them again after work... especially in queen production where there is far less lifting and a lot of sitting during travel...

From the heavy lifting, I have always been able to palm full mediums, one in each hand and stack them over my head like that... that is how trucks/trailers got loaded/unloaded... but again, you wouldn't hire a runt for this type of work... you have to let the "equipment" be properly matched for the task... heavy lifting - strong guys that are used to heavy lifting and view it as a chance to work out... my health was always excellent until these last few years since I have Not had the opportunity to stay as physically active as I used to. 

I think the sue happy mentality is another thing that we do not have a problem with here... no one here cares for that type of thing, and that's part of what I look for when selecting staff members... character... I don't like complainers, trouble makers, drunks, dopers, laziness, cheating, anyone who will spend their energy making excuses or waiting on an "easier" way instead of just getting it done, and above all.. I do not like liers, thieves, and c
Immorality, which are the three most important ingredients in law suits and sue happy people... 

That in itself is a way to save manual labor... hiring the right staff... it can be the difference between moving honey with a Tonka truck or a Semi...

Hard work is good for you in all aspects of health, mental, physical, and emotional... so instead of trying to avoid it, we should simply find ways to limit the strenuous parts of it, which we already have done quite well...


----------



## rrussell6870

Acebird said:


> If you don't have any employees you don't have any cost justification for labor. I can physically lift more than my back can take. I won't be doing any lifting. It isn't worth the risk.


This is another example of what I was just referring to... are you handicapped for some reason? Why is lifting things so "risky" for you?


----------



## WLC

Well, perhaps instead of stacks of hive bodies and supers, a long type hive (kinda like a top bar hive) w/ cassettes (like the hoggs 1/2 cells) that are inserted from the top of the long hive. So, instead of having to unstack, you just have to pull out a stack of cassettes from the top of the long hive.

You could make the cassette stacks of any size to limit weight and perhaps take advantage of how bees will tend to have brood in the middle and pollen, etc. further out. If you want solid brood cassette stacks, pull em out of the stacks, restack em, and reinsert.

If you think of an Illinois super going sideways on a long hive (instead of a topbar) you can get an idea of what I mean.

Of course, if you want to move an entire long hive, you can either remove the cassettes, and transport it piecewise, or use a forklift.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> I won't be doing any lifting. It isn't worth the risk.
> 
> If you feel it would be better to take all the suppers at once and leave the brood boxes in place that may be another possibility. I suppose the issue is still getting rid of the bees.


What? Surely you lift yourself out of bed every day, don't you? Is there no challenge to your life worth taking?

It is better to take all the supers at once, leaving the brood boxes in place in the apiary. Not being afraid of or concerned w/ a few, or a few hundred, bees is the attitude about taking honey back to the honey house for extracting that one needs to do what one needs to. It is called beekeeping after all. Dealing w/ and be comfortable and confident is key. Enjoying the work helps too.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> If you don't have any employees you don't have any cost justification for labor.


I assume you are refering to "justification for labor" as in Labor Expense as in Business Expenses?


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> Well, perhaps instead of stacks of hive bodies and supers, a long type hive (kinda like a top bar hive) w/ cassettes (like the hoggs 1/2 cells) that are inserted from the top of the long hive. So, instead of having to unstack, you just have to pull out a stack of cassettes from the top of the long hive.
> 
> 
> 
> .


WLC... I suppose you have seen M. Bushes long hives... some 33 frames long. But of course those are frames and not cassettes. 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm


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## Acebird

rrussell6870 said:


> Hard work is good for you in all aspects of health, mental, physical, and emotional... so instead of trying to avoid it, we should simply find ways to limit the strenuous parts of it, which we already have done quite well...


Yes, hard work is good for you but heavy lifting like you described is not good for the average person. Professional athletes literally wear their bodies out before they reach forty. It doesn't sound like you are limiting the strenuous parts at all. It sounds very macho and competitive. If you can find enough people to live up to your standards then all the power to you. I don't think the next generation coming up will be that willing. We can't afford the wars we are in now so I think the refuge pipeline will dry up shortly.

Mark, a long time ago when I was 35 I had an accident at home. Slip and fall on an icy patio resulting in three slip disc and damage to my spine. The older you get the more it bothers you especially in a cold climate. I exercise once a week and do yoga which has made a tremendous difference, but lifting above a certain limit will aggravate the back where it takes two weeks to recover. I hate drugs, and refuse to take them but my wife has proven to me where they can be helpful so I have relaxed a bit on that. Yes, I can lift two 5 gal pails but the next day I would be paralyzed and it ain't fun. I have been doing a lot of drywall and I find it safer to split the pails to carry them around.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> I assume you are refering to "justification for labor" as in Labor Expense as in Business Expenses?


Yes, if you are not paying for labor you are hard pressed to show justification for capital improvements. Expenditures become more of I want it rather than I need it.


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## WLC

hpm:

I've had 4 foot top bars hives (which failed). If I understand correctly, Mr. Bush thinks that they could have been longer.

The Langstroth was first conceived in October of 1851. So, it's been about 160 years since it was first devised.

It's greatest weakness, in my opinion, is that to get to the bees at the bottom hive, you have to remove all of the hive bodies and supers above it. There's one other point that I've mentioned above, each frame on the brood area will have concentric zones of brood, pollen, honey, and drones (as well as the queen cells).

I think that a long hive, using stacks of cassettes that can be inserted/removed vertically will allow for not only working any part of the hive without unstacking and restacking, but will also allow for something that could be invaluable. The manipulation of cassettes containing pure zones of brood (capped or other), pollen (regular and bee bread), honey (capped and uncapped), drones, and queen cells.

That kind of manipulation, of a cassette based long hive, could also lead to something completely new. The automation of honeybee management.

While a long hive consisting of nothing but stacks 1/2 cell cassettes may seem unrealistic to many, I can envision a beekeeper in the future driving his John Deere Beemaster 2020 down rows of thousands of cassette based long hives.

It isn't quite as visionary as bee space, but it isn't too far off.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Yes, if you are not paying for labor you are hard pressed to show justification for capital improvements. Expenditures become more of I want it rather than I need it.


I don't see how you can seem so sure about that. How can you say anything about expenditures being more need than want or vice versa?

Don't the need for Capital expenditures come from need to improve business related equipment or building space?


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> I have been doing a lot of drywall and I find it safer to split the pails to carry them around.


I'm sorry to hear that you can no longer do what your body should be able to were it not broken. Things happen in life which can result in personal limitations.

I have a friend who runs 750 to 1,000 colonies, w/ the help of a small handful of people. But, even at 72 years of age he is more fit than I and could probably work me into the ground if he wished. He lifts full mediums regularly. as well as deeps when necassary. He isn't built like Arnold Swatzeneger.

I hope you are splitting that mud into two buckets and carrying two at a time. My Uncle Gordon taught me that 50 years ago on the farm in Iowa when it was time to feed the hogs. And lift w/ your knees, not your back. Which I'm sure I don't need to tell you.


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> hpm:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that a long hive, using stacks of cassettes that can be inserted/removed vertically will allow for not only working any part of the hive without unstacking and restacking, but will also allow for something that could be invaluable. The manipulation of cassettes containing pure zones of brood (capped or other), pollen (regular and bee bread), honey (capped and uncapped), drones, and queen cells.
> 
> 
> It isn't quite as visionary as bee space, but it isn't too far off.


Wonder what the queen would think about laying brood in those cassettes? Or you talking about using frames in the brood chamber? Could be she would not care...


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## WLC

hpm:

There would be no frames involved. Just stacks of 1/2 cell cassettes in spring loaded bodies only. They'd fit together horizontally to form the hive. Kinda like drawers would fit a dresser on its back.


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## hpm08161947

WLC:

First I wonder it has been tried before. Perhaps by Hogg. Did I not see something about a Hogg Cassette Club.. wonder if there members who would have insight? Interesting idea... probably worth a try.


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## WLC

hpm:

Who knows? Maybe I'm the first to 'conceptualize' 1/2 comb, cassette based horizontal hives?


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## rrussell6870

Acebird quotes. Yes, hard work is good for you but heavy lifting like you described is not good for the average person.

rrussell6870 responses.****This isn't a desk job... we wouldn't even consider an application from an "average" person... its agriculture, and to work in this field strength, drive, and a natural love for what you are doing are requirements, not training criteria****

Professional athletes literally wear their bodies out before they reach forty. 

****I have never met any... sure those that use drugs to boost performance DO collapse eventually, but an active person that focussed on good health and pushes themselves to accomplish reasonable physical goals which increase as their bodies develop, will live a longer, healthier life than those that try not to use their bodies as they were intended****

It doesn't sound like you are limiting the strenuous parts at all. It sounds very macho and competitive. 

****sure we are... taking off honey supers is a simple process that I have seen explained to you several times by different people... lifting the supers from the hive to the truck/trailer, lifting the supers from the truck/trailer to the honey house... that's it... that's all you were trying to avoid, and its honestly not that hard of a task, even for the "average" person****

If you can find enough people to live up to your standards then all the power to you. I don't think the next generation coming up will be that willing. We can't afford the wars we are in now so I think the refuge pipeline will dry up shortly.

****No shortage of strong backs around here... our climate requires out door work activity and agricultural work for the majority of the year... no long winters to force people in doors, so lots of farmers tans and dirty boots year round... no migratory labor needed, we raise our own... the only real migratory workers around here are Mexican labor working inside of the chicken processing plants... I have been pleasantly surprised with the turnout of American youths that are stepping up each generation to take their places in agricultural industry... the vast majority of which start at the ground level and work their way up the ladder, the way they should****

Mark, a long time ago when I was 35 I had an accident at home. Slip and fall on an icy patio resulting in three slip disc and damage to my spine.

****Now THAT makes sense... having a handicap is certainly a reason to try to find ways around the tasks that you cannot physically perform without causing more damage... but one must keep in mind that very few people are limited by such physical issues... thus what may seem like "macho hard labor" to a person with a handicap, is simply another day at the office to the majority of people... so when trying to devise plans for limiting "hard" labor, you must realise that there are many different definitions for "hard labor" in the first place****


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## jim lyon

I agree wholeheartedly with everything RR said with one exception, have to agree with Ace in that it has become much more difficult to find young people willing to do this type of hard work. Having been raised with the ole "when the going gets tough the tough get going" mindset it bothers me to see how many young people are simply not conditioned to put in a hard day of manual labor. The "woosification" of America has made significant inroads into even a rural state like South Dakota.


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## WLC

It's the "Thumb Crack" that's doing it to em. 

I've recently had the task of having to show 2 young adults how to use a cordless drill to put together 2 complete hives. They've never used power tools before in their lives.

Their friends and family didn't believe them when they told them what they had done because it's so far removed from their normal experiences.

However, the two strapping young lads from Poland, who built all of my medium equipment (O.K., I built a few myself), were experienced in contract work. They knew exactly what to do and were quite fearless around the bees when we worked the hives.

I've had to show literally dozens of them how to handle power tools and even take something as basic as measurements.

However, that being said, there is something 'retro' about beekeeping which speaks to the title of the thread: Ideas for limiting manual labor for beeks.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> hpm:
> 
> There would be no frames involved. Just stacks of 1/2 cell cassettes in spring loaded bodies only. They'd fit together horizontally to form the hive. Kinda like drawers would fit a dresser on its back.


I don't think queens would like that very much. Though bees do deal w/ whatever is given them. I wouldn't think that clustering, ventilation and brood rearing would be very good in such a system. 

I do think you should try it out and let us know how it went. Usually that's where true learning happens. One learns why one shouldn't do something. The pluses and minuses.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> It's the "Thumb Crack" that's doing it to em.
> 
> I've recently had the task of having to show 2 young adults how to use a cordless drill to put together 2 complete hives. They've never used power tools before in their lives.


"Thumb Crack"? WHAT!!?

"cordless drill to put together 2 complete hives"? WHAT!!? I'm not from Missouri, but "You're gonna have to Show Me.".


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## Ted Kretschmann

WLC ,the Russian or Ukrainian Long hive might be the hive for you. Just do not move them around, as they are extremely cumbersome . I have considerable experience with these type hives in Ukraine. They work nicely for these people, as they harvest by the frame, rather than the super. Though some of the beeks are starting to "stack" upwards. Be sure to paint the long hives sky blue, in keeping with Ukrainian traditions. TED


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## WLC

'Thumb crack' refers to the elctronic devices that you see so many young people working w/ their thumbs. They're addicted to electronic media.

The drill is used for 2", coarse thread, drywall screws that we use to put together hives and other stuff.

As for building a 1/2 comb cassette long hive...

I'd like to remind those of you who haven't come up with any labor saving ideas that your hive technology is 160 years old.

I don't think that the 'if it ain't broke' mantra is going to help when trying to get the next generation of beekeepers interested.

One season of working at your yard, and they're off to the first McJob they can land.


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> One season of working at your yard, and they're off to the first McJob they can land.


Actually the problem is not that they are off for McJobs... but that they are off starting their own bee operations... or so I hear... we are too small to hire anyone.


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## WLC

Ted:

We pretty much know that long hives have their advantages and disadvantages. I wouldn't keep a full sized one because, well, I can't move the thing if I had to.

The only way that I can figure out how to keep the advantages of both the longhive (no need to unstack boxes) and the mobility of the Lang (boxes can be removed from the 'horizontal stack') is what I've described above.

The 1/2 comb cassette idea , though unproven, addresses the potential for automation and something that's missing when using a standard frame (the ability to seperate 1/2 comb cassettes by areas: brood, pollen, honey, etc.).

Let's put it another way, there's no reason to replace a successful 160 year old system unless it has the potential for providing some real benefits.

I'm chopping away, but all I'm getting is calluses.


----------



## WLC

hpm:

Without any experience in an actual bee yard, they're gonna need the McJob anyway to pay for their mistakes.


----------



## Acebird

WLC said:


> hpm:
> 
> I think that a long hive, using stacks of cassettes that can be inserted/removed vertically will allow for not only working any part of the hive without unstacking and restacking, but will also allow for something that could be invaluable. The manipulation of cassettes containing pure zones of brood (capped or other), pollen (regular and bee bread), honey (capped and uncapped), drones, and queen cells.
> 
> That kind of manipulation, of a cassette based long hive, could also lead to something completely new. The automation of honeybee management.
> 
> While a long hive consisting of nothing but stacks 1/2 cell cassettes may seem unrealistic to many, I can envision a beekeeper in the future driving his John Deere Beemaster 2020 down rows of thousands of cassette based long hives.
> 
> It isn't quite as visionary as bee space, but it isn't too far off.


I have found that automation usually REQUIRES changes that upset the normal way of doing things. It will always come under great resistance. Mechanization is easier to sell because it doesn't change the way things are done. It just mechanizes the manual portion of labor.

Your idea of "compartmentalising" honey, pollen, brood and what ever might work better if the cassettes are like annular rings of a tree which is why I suggested making the hive a big tube (round). The hive would split at the diameter so you could remove the individual cassette holders (frames). Bee space could be maintained.


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## Acebird

Kids are no different in any part of the US except for the small Amish communities that are scattered about. There are minor differences between families based on there economic status which will never change. But farm boys in Iowa, Kansas, Texas, or Florida are no different than farm boys in NY. You are kidding yourself if you think there are differences.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Mark, a long time ago when I was 35 I had an accident at home. Slip and fall on an icy patio resulting in three slip disc and damage to my spine.
> 
> lifting above a certain limit will aggravate the back where it takes two weeks to recover.


This seems to be a crucial piece of information which would have been nice to have had from the first Post of this Thread. Had we known you were seeking advice on how a guy w/ a broken back can avoid heavy lifting, I'm sure some of our Posts would have been different.

I think that often you don't say what you mean or what you think you meant.


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> They'd fit together horizontally to form the hive. Kinda like drawers would fit a dresser on its back.


How do you propose dealing w/ the propolis?


----------



## rrussell6870

I can tell you have not traveled much. Not saying that ny farm boys are different than any other, but "kids" are different according to the ways that they are raised... instilled values, morals, work ethics, and respect for others come from adults that lead by example... in any home and/or community where that is missing or hindered, the children are directly effected... the way that my children are raised may be completely different that that of my neighbor, but the majority of children raised in agricultural based households are raised to understand that what we give determines what we receive back and that includes not only our hard work to generate good crops, but also the respect and kindness that we show others... I think that we have had this discussion before... again leading by example has the greatest influence on others around you... children around someone that looks for the path of least resistance usually follow in that same mindset... children around someone that welcomes each day and every challenge that it brings will usually follow in that mindset... 

There are definitely generational issues as Jim and wlc pointed out... two generations ago, the everyday tasks were much more physical, communications and technology have lessened the hands on environment since then and both the last generation as well as the latest generation are much less task oriented... but there are still many areas and lifestyles in which "labor" is not outsourced, but is just part of life... the children raised in these environments are much more likely to not simply rely on their minds alone, but rely on working hard and smart as a way to accomplish their tasks.


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> But farm boys in Iowa, Kansas, Texas, or Florida are no different than farm boys in NY. You are kidding yourself if you think there are differences.


Problem is, there are not many farm boys left. I mean, how many cows does the average upstate dairy milk these days? Maybe 1000 or more? Seems hard to delegate responsibilities on these megafarms. Pa may wear blue jeans... but he does not get them very dirty.


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## rrussell6870

sqkcrk said:


> This seems to be a crucial piece of information which would have been nice to have had from the first Post of this Thread. Had we known you were seeking advice on how a guy w/ a broken back can avoid heavy lifting, I'm sure some of our Posts would have been different.
> 
> I think that often you don't say what you mean or what you think you meant.


Very true...

The impression of the thread was so geared towards being anti-work that I just had to ask if it was pure laziness or if there was actually a handicap that wasnt mentioned... 

Ace, you wouldn't have seemed nearly as bad if you had been forthcoming with that information... no one here will think less of you for being handicapped, but they will for being lazy... 

Now that we have that info, we can give ideas specifically for someone that can not do the lifting that the rest of us see as no big deal...


----------



## rrussell6870

hpm08161947 said:


> Pa may wear blue jeans... but he does not get them very dirty.


I actually have a story that's along those lines... when I was a child, my father and I were dropping off a semi load of packages to a retailer in ky on a Sunday and the old man that owned the company was in church when we arrived, so we went to sit in during the service of a church that was next to the parking area that we had parked the semi in...

We were of course quite dirty from shaking packages and loading the trailer for the two days before in yards that were all along the route to ky... after a brief sermon, we stood to leave and of course the pastor was at the door shaking the hands of members as they left... 
As my father reached to shake his hand and introduce himself, the guy actually had the nerve to say "not dressing up for church isn't really setting a good example for your boy here"... without hesitation my father told him "your god may require you to wear a suit before he will listen to you, but my god is there Any time I call his name... he has dirt on his knees and callous hands from working tirelessly to keep this place and the people he created.. he is THE farmer of all life on this earth.. its nice that you can be so comfortable and clean all the time, but when you do meet God, do you think he will care more about what you wore during your life or whether you were willing to get in the dirt and care for his creation along side of him?"

That was the first time I had ever seen a Baptist preacher with nothing to say. Lol.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

There is a device that was on the market that someone with a handicap can use to inspect their colonies. The device basically swings the supers off horizontally and holds them while the handicapped person examines the brood nest of the bees. Thus saving their back. Maybe someone else on this thread will remember where Ace can purchase one at. WLC, I am not for replacing a 160 year old system that works. For me to keep Russian long hives here would be a novelty. IN Ukraine, you do as the locals do and not upset what works for them ..aka when in Rome do as the Romans do........Besides they are proud people and would not listen to advice to change even if there lives depended on it.----They think our way of beekeeping is a wrong way to keep bees. TED


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## WLC

'How do you propose dealing w/ the propolis?'

On plastic cassettes? Would you like to suggest a type of plastic that can be used for the cassettes?


Doc Russell, what about my hernia(s)?

Regardless, since you do come from a long line of beekeepers, how can you explain that the Langstroth hive, the industry standard, has been around for 160 years without any significant changes?

You'd think that somewhere in that time frame, beekeepers would have come up w/ automated invertebrate farming by now.

I'm just not hearing about any new ideas from beekeepers. It's as if you like the 'old ways'.


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## Acebird

Wait a minute ... I am not handicaped. I am not on any government assistance of any kind and I can probably work most people under the table and have done so many times. But I do have a back issue that limits how much weight I can lift. So I watch it so the bull in me doesn't turn me into a lamb.

I don't see why a forum should require people to reveal anything about themselves. I admit, communication is my weakest skill set but I don't see what I would say differently. Some people just take me wrong and I don't know what to do about it but keep saying what I think. Over time enemies become friends. Some just stay enemies. It's how it goes. Trust me, I believe in hard work but I spent my life figuring out how to do things easier or faster. You don't just turn that off.

Keep in mind that necessity is the mother of invention and lazyness is the father... So it is natural for me to appear lazy.


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## hpm08161947

Ted Kretschmann said:


> ..Besides they are proud people and would not listen to advice to change even if there lives depended on it.----They think our way of beekeeping is a wrong way to keep bees. TED


TED... In the Ukraine... is it all "Crush and Strain" - or maybe some variety of cutcomb? Are we talking about commercial operations? I am guessing they would be pretty small... but I really have no idea. I am also thinking extremely labor intensive.


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## beeware10

the langstroth super has lasted 160 years because it works. there are many small variations 8 frame 10 frame etc. going to a topbar hive is like going back to a skep. kind of like giving up our cars and going back to horses because they are natural.


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## WLC

The Langstroth dates back to the Civil War. It's as if beekeepers are driving around in a horse and buggy.

It's a throwback.

Also, I don't get the feeling that there are any new ideas that are being developed.

All that I'm hearing from some is, "You can't get there from here."

That's gotta change.


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## beeware10

wlc
I think we have two views of topbar and langstroth hives. looks like you looking at them from a hobby beekeepers view and I'm looking from a commercial view. for a hobby beekeeper the top bar hive may be fine. my point is it would not be pracitical to move 1000 hives to make a living with them. to me they are just a novelty.


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## WLC

beeware:

That's not quite what I'm saying in this thread.

I think that you need to find a way to automate alot of what you're doing. I think that a horizontal hive, w/ 1/2comb cassettes, is one possibility for automation.

I doubt that top bars are of any use for anything resembling automation. I would say the same for the Lang.

Comeon folks. Someone must have some ideas out there.


----------



## sqkcrk

rrussell6870 said:


> As my father reached to shake his hand and introduce himself, the guy actually had the nerve to say "not dressing up for church isn't really setting a good example for your boy here"... without hesitation my father told him "your god may require you to wear a suit before he will listen to you, but my god is there Any time I call his name... he has dirt on his knees and callous hands from working tirelessly to keep this place and the people he created.. he is THE farmer of all life on this earth.. its nice that you can be so comfortable and clean all the time, but when you do meet God, do you think he will care more about what you wore during your life or whether you were willing to get in the dirt and care for his creation along side of him?"
> 
> That was the first time I had ever seen a Baptist preacher with nothing to say. Lol.


What a wonderful example of a Father setting an example for his son and an examples of a man who lives his faith. How proud you must be of him. As if he needed it, I bet he went way up on your respect scale.

Thanks for sharing that story w/ us Robert.


----------



## sqkcrk

"'How do you propose dealing w/ the propolis?'

On plastic cassettes? Would you like to suggest a type of plastic that can be used for the cassettes?"

Mark's reply: No, this is your idea. I just thought you either hadn't thought about the propolis or had decided to be vague about how you would address it. I see the propolis as a deterant to your idea being functional.

" how can you explain that the Langstroth hive, the industry standard, has been around for 160 years without any significant changes?"

Mark's reply: You either have forgotten or didn't know of changes which have been made over the years. Hives have gotten smaller and gone to the use of multiple boxes. Have you heard of the Jumbo Dadant? A hive that was a Cube? Just as tall as it was long and twelve frames? 

Things have changed over time to get us to where we are now w/, more or less, standardized/interchangeable equipment. Supers and frames. 

And things are ever evolving. Slatted racks, screened bottom boards, ventilated and insulated covers, different kinds of feeders, different smokers, hives tools, coveralls and veils, so on and so on. Change is all around us.

And some of that change is actually an example of something invented ages ago.

"I'm just not hearing about any new ideas from beekeepers. It's as if you like the 'old ways'."

Well, I think you can say the same thing about lots of things. Bridges are basically the same design for centuries. Autos may look different from year to year, but are they really revolutionary?

If it isn't broken, why fix it? If the shoe fits, wear it. Tried and true. All sorts of cliches work too. (is that how youi spell cliches?)


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Wait a minute ... I am not handicaped. I am not on any government assistance of any kind and I can probably work most people under the table and have done so many times. But I do have a back issue that limits how much weight I can lift.
> 
> I don't see why a forum should require people to reveal anything about themselves. I


Who said anything about government assistance? What does that have to do w/ disability or lack of ability.

Having a back issue which limits how much weight one can lift, I would calol a dibility. It doesn't say anything about ones character. But it would clue others into understanding where you are coming from w/ your questions or statements.

The Forum doesn't require revealing anything you aren't comfortable revealing. But, you should understand how it helps to inform others so they can tailor their answers and attitudes. Knowing that lifting heavy things like supers full of honey is difficult for you puts you in a different light.


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> That's gotta change.


Then change it. Don't expect hoards of peoploe to jump on your bandwagon. You know that is too much to expect.

Your ideas of comb honey production should be in the light of how much of a market there is or isn't for comb honey. It is a limited mkt.


----------



## WLC

OK sqkcrk, what's your idea for reducing labor?



I wouldn't pick the type of plastic myself because that's what engineers do. Although I would favor Polypropylene because it can be sterilized chemically and by heat.

Mark, Langs are just stacks of boxes with frames hanging in em. That hasn't changed.
You unstack em, manipulated frames, then restack em. Uh, did I mention that they're made of wood?

Nothing new there. 

Aren't you concerned that the other 'invertebrate farmers' out there might start teasing you? I'd hate to get teased by a shrimp farmer. That would ruin my day.

This thread is as if someone held a brainstorming session and nobody showed.


----------



## rrussell6870

Absolutely Mark. He was an excellent role model and I can honestly say that while his words were always meaningful, his choices and actions taught everyone around him what it meant to be a man. There is a saying that we use often when we are pushing our physical limits, "don't worry about the mule, just load the wagon"... lol. My father lived his life as the "mule", never complaining, never letting those that depended on him know that he was burdened, and never asking anyone to share his load... with 8 children and a huge operation on his shoulders, he just smiled and continued to pull that wagon, all the while, readily willing to take on the burdens of others and never giving up. Character of heart and skill of hand, and always in that order, character first, skill second... to me, skill is meaningless without the drive to use it and the heart to use it to its fullest. 

I have always been proud of him and respected him... and try to live my life with at least a fraction of the conviction that he had during his.


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> I think that a horizontal hive, w/ 1/2comb cassettes, is one possibility for automation.
> 
> Comeon folks. Someone must have some ideas out there.


We understand that you do, but I don't see it. Show me.

Of course we have ideas. My idea is to take what works and get better at working it. People ask me "How are the bees doing?" and I tell them "Not that good. No honey.". "How come? What do you blame it on?", I say, "The Manager. I blame the Manager."

You see WLC, there is nothing wrong w/ the equipment we use and nothing wrong w/ the bees, not really, but there may be something wrong w/ the way we manage them. Then there is the environment they/we live in. 'nother story.

That's what I think. That's my idea.


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> OK sqkcrk, what's your idea for reducing labor?
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't pick the type of plastic myself because that's what engineers do. Although I would favor Polypropylene because it can be sterilized chemically and by heat.
> 
> Aren't you concerned that the other 'invertebrate farmers' out there might start teasing you? I'd hate to get teased by a shrimp farmer. That would ruin my day.
> 
> This thread is as if someone held a brainstorming session and nobody showed.


My idea for reducing labor? When I can't do it, hire it done.

I don't care what kind of plastic you aren't willing to choose, the bees will stick it together. It's what bees do.

If I am concerned about what anybody thinks of me or finds to tease me about it would be my peers. My fellow commercial beekeepers. And you know what they tease me about? Spending time on beesource. Especially when I could be spending time w/ them or my bees.

If you read back through all of the Posts, I believe I have suggested some labor saving ideas, I forget at this time. But, before one starts telling a Concert Violinist about a better bowing technique, one better know what they are talking about inside and out.

I mean no real disrespect, since we don't really know each other, but you, WLC, and Acebird are not far from being two peas ina pod. Cut from the same cloth.


----------



## rrussell6870

I still have hives in operation that my grandfather started... cypress chests with one story of combs on simple top bars... the way that langs lower the labor is by creating a verticle nest so that honey is stored overhead and complete boxes of solid honey with no brood can be removed without manipulating the brood nest... this is also true for moving entire sections of the brood nest in order to make efficient increases... in single level nests, the stores have to be take from the sides of the brood and it takes longer for the colony to recover from that. In the Russian longs that Ted mentioned, the long frames are usually occupied by brood, pollen, and honey and the brood nest is somewhat the nucleus of the box... the processing methods are different, (however, they do have extractors) mainly being that they will either extract all of their crop once per season, or they will take off small increments along the way... the two constants are that they have to leave more honey in the hives to keep from hurting the colony too much, and they get less product per hive...

In a skep the honey is cut from the bottom of the brood combs in reverse of what we do... but there is much more waste involved and no means of manipulating the combs within the nests for increases... all increase is done during swarming season when not only the original queen leaves, but so do most of the virgins that hatch from the swarm cells, creating "caste swarms"...


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## hpm08161947

WLC... you have conceived it... conceptualized it. Now you are going to have to build it.... work the kinks out... Everybody here is from MO... me too.


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## rrussell6870

Here is the best labor saving method for honey production that I can think of off the top of my head that does not involve limiting the husbandry of the bees...

Roll-back trailers or truck beds (assembly line style, not solid beds)... think lugage platforms at the airport... the sane thing going in and coming out of the honey house so that supers are carried in and out on assembly lines... and for the lifting of supers so they can be set on trailers or truck beds, a simple swing lift, proving you have access to get close enough to the hives with the truck and trailer...


----------



## sqkcrk

Here's another Labor saving suggestion. If you really want to lessen you labor out put, just don't do it. If it is work you want to avoid, avoid it.

I'm getting a headache.

Robert, I love your Dad. Much respect. Is he still around? I'd love to meet him in person. I bet my Grandpa Porter and He would have alot in common. Grandpa was a Hog Farmer on 200 acres in Iowa. Grandpa Roy Porter and Mame, my Grandma, raised 5 children on that farm and all of them went to College, became Bank Presidents, Agway Vice Presidents, Landscapers at Iowa State, Mothers and Fathers, and etc.

A big handed gentle man who worked every day of his life until he died.


----------



## WLC

"I mean no real disrespect, since we don't really know each other, but you, WLC, and Acebird are not far from being two peas ina pod. Cut from the same cloth."

Not really.

I just wondered if you had any new ideas.

Guess not. 

Look at it this way, if I were to tell someone unfamiliar with beekeeping that beekeepers are still using a system of woodenware that's over 100 years old, they might find that to be more than just 'a bit odd'.

Furthermore, if I were to tell them that they're not interested in automation, it might raise some eyebrows.

Just an observation from an 'outsider'.


----------



## Acebird

WLC said:


> This thread is as if someone held a brainstorming session and nobody showed.




We come from all walks of life and have different views on bee keeping depending on what we have experienced or what we want to get out of it.
I started this thread or planted the seed to see what would come out of it. I didn't have any expectations of what would result but I am happy to see that ideas are discussed without personal attacks. keep it up. Ideas are free.

WLC I am all about change but I see Marks point that there will not be a lot of enthusiasm for an idea that doesn't have a big market. At the same time I can see the benefit of not having to lug around supers. I also see the advantage of a molded hive because automation is easier or possible when what you want to move around is made accurately and not affected by weather. For one thing flanges can be molded in that facilitate using lifting devices without consuming extra time.

The problem with plastic is it requires an enormous investment to try it so I can only see that happening with a huge operation with a lot of labor dollars to pay for that investment. If your labor force is 6 people you can forget it. It needs to be well over 300 to as much as a thousand to draw interest in the investment. I don't know how large bee businesses get. Maybe none of them are that big.

Going the other way, hobbyist have an unlimited ability to spend money because they are not looking for an economic return. On a very small scale proving a system works may spark some interest.


----------



## rrussell6870

Mark, Unfortunately, he passed away last December at 77 years young. Smoked heavily from 9 years old until he was 71 and had his second heart attack and the doctor told him that he had 2 years left if he stopped smoking... never lit another one, and said he never missed a beat... that's conviction. Lol. With a defibulator in his chest and an oxygen tank carted at his side, I carried him to his three favorite places every day until his last... the bee yards, the diner in town that his best friend owned, and back yard to watch his grandchildren play.


----------



## WLC

hpm:

I'm don't earn my income by 'lugging Langs'.

I think that this whole issue should be addressed by commercial types.

Why? Because they're the only ones with the wherewithall to change things.

Telling me to 'Go do it and tell us how it went' isn't helpful.


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## rrussell6870

Ace, now that Ted is on this thread, maybe we can get him to give his take on the work ethics of the youth from my operation... he met a few of them this past spring...


----------



## Acebird

WLC, I should add that one of the things that Universities are great for is trying something totally off the cuff with enthusiastic students with nothing to loose and only knowledge to gain. How is your budget for R&D for bee hive design?


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> hpm:
> 
> 
> Telling me to 'Go do it and tell us how it went' isn't helpful.


Not really. Just build one... a long hive with plastic cassettes and see how it goes. You don't have to be a "Lang Lugger" to do that. If if works... someone would take it from there.


----------



## Acebird

rrussell6870 said:


> Ace, now that Ted is on this thread, maybe we can get him to give his take on the work ethics of the youth from my operation... he met a few of them this past spring...


Robert, if I am not mistaken somewhere on this forum you acknowledge that you have 6 employees. That is a small family business as companies go. I am not saying it doesn't give you a satisfactory life but it is considered very small. Mark says he doesn't have any employees. That is even smaller still. I wouldn't expect changes to come from that size company. If you were a 300 employee operation you would see a major difference in work ethics.

My wife runs a 500 + unit storage facility and I am a independent contractor that does the maintenance, grounds keeping and snow removal for the facility. So it is a 1.5 person operation. You are not going to see the same work ethic across the street (U-Haul) that you do here. If you don't believe me just ask anyone that has gone to both facilities. U-Haul has thousands of employees, mostly younger. You would be hard pressed to find 6 that are worth their salt. Size matters.


----------



## WLC

Acebird:

We both know that the current Lang/frame system isn't suitable for automation.

What should be of concern is that there's nothing on the horizon to allow that to happen.


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> I just wondered if you had any new ideas.
> 
> Guess not.
> 
> Mark's reply: That didn't take long.
> 
> Look at it this way, if I were to tell someone unfamiliar with beekeeping that beekeepers are still using a system of woodenware that's over 100 years old, they might find that to be more than just 'a bit odd'.
> 
> Mark's reply: Yeah, so what? Who cares what someone who doesn't do what we do thinks abouit what we do. Especially whgen we are making something they want. Food. Good looking food.
> 
> Furthermore, if I were to tell them that they're not interested in automation, it might raise some eyebrows.
> 
> Mark's reply: Again, so what? Same thing could be said about the ways most of our food is produced. By human labor.
> 
> Just an observation from an 'outsider'.


Tru dat.


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> What should be of concern is that there's nothing on the horizon to allow that to happen.


Doesn't your intelligence allow you to see why? Were there real demand for what you and Acebird or searching for, it would come.

It isn't necassary or profitable. Get over it.


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## WLC

Acebird:

We're into genomics, not beekeeping. Because that's where the funding is.

hpm:

I'd hate to have to figure out how to come up with 80 cassettes per body. I'd have to find out who has a 3D fabricator for starters because these types of cassettes don't exist, and they'd most likely need to be modified several times. The Hoggs are simply too deep.


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## beeware10

LAST POST TO THIS THREAD
my goal in this forum is to help new people get started in beekeeping. I have 50 yrs experence plus 3ys as a nys inspector. I have helped hundreds of people get started and I enjoy It. this thread has turned out to be a waste of time. what we have is a guy that got laid off, is now a janitor for his wife, has two hives of bees and tells commercial guys how to keep bees. like they say "I SEE THE LIGHT"


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## WLC

sqkcrk:

Aren't commercial operations dropping out at a steady rate? Couldn't the same be said for sideliners?

I think that if the above is true, that there are issues with profitability and necessity.

The next generation isn't good with manual labor.

But, just put a controller in their hands and watch em go at it. Automate.


----------



## Acebird

WLC said:


> Acebird:
> 
> We both know that the current Lang/frame system isn't suitable for automation.


I would never say that but making changes to the present system could make the challenge easier. At this point I do not have the experience to lay out an automated system that would be different than what automation already exist. I may never have that experience. I don't know what is available and I have only seen what is available on U tube. I think most of what is available is not practical for many members of this forum because of their size.

I think that if you are going to buy into a system that markets the entire comb and honey to the customer you are in the same category as crush and strain. And I think that you can envision that system to be very easily automated using the Lang hive. The only difference is that you have two customers instead of one. I think the former is easier to market especially on a small scale. I could be wrong because I do neither.


----------



## WLC

Acebird:

You misunderstand me. A horizontal 1/2 comb cassette hive would have to be able to do every operation that a beekeeper might want to do and allow for some new products/operations as well.

It's not just about the Hogg system.


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> I'd hate to have to figure out how to come up with 80 cassettes per body. I'd have to find out who has a 3D fabricator for starters because these types of cassettes don't exist, and they'd most likely need to be modified several times.


I know some guys in SC w/ their own injection molding machines. They use them to make flats for tobacco and vegetable hydroponic greenhouse set production. Would that fit the bill? Tryin' to be helpful


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> sqkcrk:
> 
> Aren't commercial operations dropping out at a steady rate? Couldn't the same be said for sideliners?
> 
> I think that if the above is true, that there are issues with profitability and necessity.


Yes, I guess so. There being only 30 commercial operations in NY, where in the past there were many more.

But, what I said before should be obviously true. Not enuf demand. Were there, there would be change. There isn't, so, there isn't. One follows the other, doesn't it?


----------



## Acebird

WLC said:


> Acebird:
> 
> We're into genomics, not beekeeping. Because that's where the funding is.
> 
> hpm:
> 
> I'd hate to have to figure out how to come up with 80 cassettes per body. I'd have to find out who has a 3D fabricator for starters because these types of cassettes don't exist, and they'd most likely need to be modified several times. The Hoggs are simply too deep.


I see your point but I thought there were Universities that were working with bees, and there are countless number of tech schools that will do anything if the interest and funds are there.

WLC,
3D fabricators are used as a complement to CMM operations. In your situation I would machine a prototype as oppose to mold one. 80 pieces is nothing to a job shop. Again tech schools will be more than happy to help. You just need the academic connections. They might have the 3D printer also for the first one.

Janitor? LOL there is no running water and toilets at a storage facility. 50 years experience and 3yrs as a nys inspector and they got rid of your job. Don't you hate when that happens?


----------



## rrussell6870

Acebird said:


> Robert, if I am not mistaken somewhere on this forum you acknowledge that you have 6 employees. That is a small family business as companies go. I am not saying it doesn't give you a satisfactory life but it is considered very small. Mark says he doesn't have any employees. That is even smaller still. I wouldn't expect changes to come from that size company. If you were a 300 employee operation you would see a major difference in work ethics.


6 people split into two 3 man crews for taking off and extracting supers... in 1982... and there were 27 people working even then, the 6 were all that was needed for that task... the rest worked in other areas of the company... 

There are 8 people in my office alone... 22 full-time crew members in the field covering 5 states and a fluctuating number of student workers that goes from 5 to 60 depending on the season...

You were discussing honey production... which has always been a secondary product for us... even when we would supply 6mil pounds of it...


----------



## WLC

If I had an actual cassette design that works (and funding) yes.

Basically, we're not even at the prototype stage yet.

We don't even know if a 1/2 comb cassette, horizontal hive can be made to work.

I'll see we can find someone who might fit the bill (Someone who can design protypes, operate a 3D fabricator, and is interested in beekeeping).


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> But, what I said before should be obviously true. Not enuf demand. Were there, there would be change. There isn't, so, there isn't. One follows the other, doesn't it?


I can only warn you that if you stick to your guns and refuse to change while the world moves on and produces your product cheaper than you can you will be out in the cold. I am not saying that is what is happening to the bee industry but it almost always happens to a mom and pop operation. You embrace change or you die without it. The world doesn't stand still.


----------



## rrussell6870

Acebird said:


> My wife runs a 500 + unit storage facility and I am a independent contractor that does the maintenance, grounds keeping and snow removal for the facility.


WHAT!!?? I am confused! So are you an engineer, medical products "something or other", or a grounds keeper for a self storage place??


----------



## Acebird

WLC said:


> I'll see we can find someone who might fit the bill (Someone who can design protypes, operate a 3D fabricator, and is interested in beekeeping).


He doesn't need to know a thing about bee keeping if you can describe the form, fit and function of the case. Someone will have to prove out the concept to see if it works and I would expect changes.


----------



## rrussell6870

Acebird said:


> I can only warn you that if you stick to your guns and refuse to change while the world moves on and produces your product cheaper than you can you will be out in the cold. I am not saying that is what is happening to the bee industry but it almost always happens to a mom and pop operation. You embrace change or you die without it. The world doesn't stand still.


So the uhaul across the street from you put you out of business huh??


----------



## rrussell6870

WLC, the reason that operations are closing is because of the pests and diseases, not the profit loss do to the methods of production... 

We have had many good talks, and I see what you have in mind, but the bottom line is the loss of hives due to pests... if it can't keep the bees safer, or allow them to restore their natural immunities, it just won't work...

But I will make you a deal, if you design it, I will have one of the engineering departments at a university that I work with make a few prototypes for you to use for testing.


----------



## Acebird

rrussell6870 said:


> WHAT!!?? I am confused! So are you an engineer, medical products "something or other", or a grounds keeper for a self storage place??


I was a mechanical engineer for 35 years in many different industries. Today I am an independent contractor that wears many hats. Do you feel that is something beneath you or something that should be looked down on? We have heard a lot about your work ethics. Should your operation be described as goons that lift things up and put things down? It is not hard to be insulting. Think about it.


----------



## WLC

Doc Russell, you're a gentleman and a scholar.

Funny thing, I was going to locate a grad student to do the same thing!

This would need to be protyped more than once.

How about 'Macgyver'? If he's still around, it's the kind of project he might like.

If you have any suggestions for what you would want out of a 1/2 comb cassette system, nows a good time to come up with specs.


----------



## hpm08161947

rrussell6870 said:


> But I will make you a deal, if you design it, I will have one of the engineering departments at a university that I work with make a few prototypes for you to use for testing.


I believe that is a serious offer... one I would look into if I were you... WLC.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> I can only warn you that if you stick to your guns and refuse to change while the world moves on and produces your product cheaper than you can you will be out in the cold.


Thanks for the warning.


----------



## WLC

hpm:

Yes, I shall. However, I don't have a design yet. What I don't want to do is copy the Hoggs. That would be a no-no.

Also, I would need 80 per body. It's just a plastic tray. 

For a medium body, that would be 3/4" deep X 4 7/16" width X 6 1/4" length (outside dimensions). 

On each top side (all 4, but not all the way to the corners), a 3/8" deep vent would need to be made to allow for ventillation and bee movement when the cassettes are stacked. 

The bottom corners of each cassette would have to have slightly recessed lips to allow the cassettes/trays to stack.

That's it. (Do feel free to double check dimensions)

Now if they could design a cover as well...


----------



## rrussell6870

Acebird said:


> I was a mechanical engineer for 35 years in many different industries. Today I am an independent contractor that wears many hats. Do you feel that is something beneath you or something that should be looked down on? We have heard a lot about your work ethics. Should your operation be described as goons that lift things up and put things down? It is not hard to be insulting. Think about it.


My "goons" either have degrees in the field or are working hard to earn them... most are post grads... I look down on no one... but only look up to those that earn their place in their industry... what is "beneath me" is going to someone else's profession that I know nothing about and telling them that they are doing things wrong...

Your two cents are not worth my time at this point, get some experience, run some tests, then report your findings... after that, I may take the time to respond to your posts, but as of now, you have 1,389 posts of negativity towards the way this industry is run and I for one am finished trying to help you understand the reasoning of the methods and the husbandry that is necessary for bees to survive and thrive...


----------



## rrussell6870

WLC, I think that making that system will be the easy part. Lol. Getting the bees to put what you need, where it needs to go, and enough of it, will be the tricky part... Joseph Clemmens is a member here and I have seen several exploded view isometrics posted by him... maybe we can get him to create a visual design that we could go by... unlike the earlier statement, the engineers will indeed have to either know the innerworkings of a hive, or have specific guidelines to follow...


----------



## WLC

Doc:

A horizontal, 1/2 comb cassette hive would have to do everything that a beekeeper wants it to do, and more. Ideally, it would be a testbed for automation, although we don't know if 1/2 comb cassettes are the best wat to do that.

What I would be interested in seeing (besides if it works at all) is if 1/2 comb cassettes can actually seperate out cross sections of hive comb by function (brood, pollen, honey, drone, queen cells, etc.).

That would be significant.


----------



## rrussell6870

There has been a fully automated bee keeper and hive combo before... its still in use today, but of course it is more of a novelty than a functional operation system... 

Your never going to guess who it belongs to... the Walt Disney corporation. Lol.

I provide queens and support to them for their studies on agricultural/space technologies... the studies are performed at the Walt Disney World resort in Florida in a facility that can be viewed while on the ride called "The Land"...

There are several hives there that are on full plastic frames that can be pulled and manipulated by a robotic system that they call "bee'ker"...

The system can judge areas of heat and patterns to determine whether it is looking at brood, the type of brood, pollen, or honey... it can locate the queen at any time and can even cover certain areas of brood with a small cage type screen in order to restrict the queens laying area as well as capture drones...


----------



## WI-beek

I work in an industry that has cameras and computers that looks for any defects in our product because they have to be flawless so they dont hold up a robot building circuit boards. If some truly wanted a fully automated system it could be created but you would need to invest major money, have tech support one hand at all times, maintenance, etc and its just not going to work unless on a huge scale. You can make a program that could be trained after many, training to recognize all the different patterns and such where it would know what was good, what was not, etc. Some day this may become practical but not any time soon. I think all that could be done today to lower cost is create more labor saving gadgets, and maybe change some practices but everyone's operation is different, yards are different, distances, flows, blah blah blah. Everyone needs to try to figure out what is best for them. Its been many years since langstroth hives were invented, and I dont doubt that maybe there is a better hive style ect. It will have to have great advantage to change the industry.


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## rrussell6870

Well said. The Disney system is just a small scale study that has excellent funding and they are mainly using it to see if someone could manipulate a hive by remote access for the purpose of theorizing hives in space agriculture systems to provide pollenation to space grown crops... not for honey production...

Ever seen bees trying to fly in zero gravity? Very comical... lol.


----------



## Specialkayme

rrussell6870 said:


> Ever seen bees trying to fly in zero gravity? Very comical... lol.


I'd kill for a link, lol.


----------



## WLC

Well, we already know that there are plenty of robotics technologies out there.

However, my opinion is that as far as beekeeping goes, we're still at Step 1.

Can a tray system be implemented in a hive?

I don't know either.

But, that's almost the bare minimum for any chance at automation. Or, a reduction of manual labor.


----------



## rrussell6870

Justin, maybe one day if your vacationing there, I can set up a tour for you and the family.


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## rrussell6870

WLC, I have seen sectional combs for that purpose but the mechanics didn't work out of course... the issue is that each comb has to be inspected visually (by man or computer) in order to be categorized into where it should be located for optimal hive health... then the next hurdle is the fact that bees Build onto the frames, making everything chaotic in the mind of a computer program...


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## WLC

Doc, are you familiar with the Hogg 1/2 comb cassette? I'm not sure if what you're describing matches that. It's a frameless system.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird already has limited labor for beeks. It's right there in the Thread Title. Shortening the name means not having to type out the word beekeeper. That saves labor.

I am not a beek.


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## Acebird

rrussell6870 said:


> I look down on no one...


You might want to revisit some of your posts.


> what is "beneath me" is going to someone else's profession that I know nothing about and telling them that they are doing things wrong...


How many times have you said that? Does it make it true? Is every new idea, good or bad considered negativity? Does it make a difference who fields the idea? That is the only way I can make sense of your posts.

[/QUOTE]


----------



## Acebird

WLC said:


> Doc, are you familiar with the Hogg 1/2 comb cassette? I'm not sure if what you're describing matches that. It's a frameless system.


http://www.beebehavior.com/hogg_cassettes.php

I read this page and now I want to know how your idea would be different and what you feel is wrong with this design.


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## WLC

Shallower cassettes, different plastic, different design elements, different spring loaded followers, square shape cassettes and boxes (eventually) so that the hive can be stacked horizontally or vertically. 


Besides, my concept is for a whole hive system, and not just 1/2 comb honey.

I think that the Hogg cassettes are too deep, in general,


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## Acebird

I don't understand the followers, and the cassettes look square to me but maybe not. Redesigning the size of standard production hives would be a big nut to crack because how would someone justify trashing what they have and taking their operation out of the possibility of buying older equipment?

What is your plan for the brood nest with square cassettes when the pattern is usually round?
This is a guess on my part but why do you think they chose the wrong plastic?


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## WLC

You might not be able to use square hive bodies, but you could use bodies of the right dimensions to hold square cassettes, if you want to mate 1/2 comb cassette bodies (from a horizontal system) onto Lang/frame stacks (vertical). I think that a hybrid is possible.

You just need to be able to rotate the square cassettes to realign the comb. Square cassettes in square bodies would make going from horizontal to vertical hives easier. The current Hogg cassettes are too deep, and I think that the vents/openings on the top of each side are too small for a queen to get through (Like an excluder).

The Hoggs are square and it's different than the Ross Round system because the Hogg system doesn't use frames. It uses spring loaded followers to hold the cassette stacks in place in the body.

I think that the 'engineering' properties of the plastic are important. Even it's thermal properties would need to be considered. 

The plastic they are using in the Hogg/Ross systems doesn't look like it would last more than a season if they are regularly manipulated.


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## Acebird

Correct me if I am wrong but aren't these cassettes just foundation on the bottom so the bees have to draw the comb? How would that exclude the queen?

If you are willing to modify the hive box just cut down the sides and put a groove on the inside so it traps the cassettes. Use two dowels in the ends of two sides mated with holes on the ends of the adjacent sides and latch them together with some kind of toggle lock (look at Destaco clamps). Now the cassettes are totally supported and add strength to the box. For extraction you just break down the boxes and reassemble with new cases. Think of the box as a fixture. There may also be an advantage for storing equipment in less space with a break down box.

Does the brood comb need to be a shippable container? What would be the point of the top of the case?

If you are looking for durability you can use polycarbonate (lexan) but for the honey that goes to the customer PVC would be way cheaper. Possibly a wood, paper, resin/wax would be cheaper still.

It is my understanding that a vertical hive is better for producing more honey. Usually when you design for a fits all you make compromises or the cost of manufacture goes up. Be careful with that one.


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## WLC

How about I get a prototype going first?

I think that the design features and other issues can be worked out once it's proven that a hive (vertical or horizontal) of 1/2 comb cassettes (or trays, if you like) works.

What's important to understand is that it's like the difference between VHS tapes and DVDs.

Relatively speaking, the Lang is more like VHS whereas a tray based, frameless horizontal system is more like a DVD. One's basically serial, while the other is closer to random access.

No one knows if it will work though.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> The plastic they are using in the Hogg/Ross systems doesn't look like it would last more than a season if they are regularly manipulated.


Ross Round frames last a long long time, if not broken or abused.


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## Acebird

WLC said:


> No one knows if it will work though.


Doesn't the Hogg prove that it works? I can't see where shortening the case or making it square will not make it work.


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## WLC

Acebird:

I've put plastic, small cell, PF-120s into my hives and they stripped the wax off of em.

Half comb cassettes would have to do more than just 'work', they'd have to provide for an advantage that's orders of magnitude more than the Lang was for beekeeping.

It's a very, very tall order.

I do have an approach, 3D printing, that I'm examining.

Now if 3D printing could be used to make all of the hive compnents needed, and the tools/equipment as well, then maybe, just maybe it's the right 'paradigm'.

Imagine if you could print fully drawn comb as well.


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## sqkcrk

You need a strong nectar flow to get foundation drawn, especially wax coated plastic foundation. Do you have strong flows in NYC?


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## Acebird

Let me just blurt out what I know about 3D printing. It is not like a bubble jet printer that is squirting out a little juice that would solidify. It is more of a bath of liquid monomer that uses a laser to polymerize the liquid at a finite location in the 3D space.

Thinking along your lines … if you could heat wax to the melting point and squirt it out into a very cold atmosphere it would solidify and build up comb like bees do using bees wax. I think it could work.

Now again, I say get the kids working on that at some University or tech school to prove it can be done and you have just created a great business of supplying frames / cassettes with fully drawn comb. Then we can go to just crush and strain with recycled wax. Beekeepers would love you for it. Automation would be a cake walk.


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## WLC

I've already RFQ'd for that very thing.

I'm looking at ABS 3D printing because it commonly uses a wax like material as a filler/support material that usually gets removed.

What if you could print out frames w/ fully drawn comb by substituting beeswax for that filler/support material?

Frankly, I'd like to push the paradigm even further. What if you could 3D print a complete hive with fully drawn frames and all (except bees)?


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## Acebird

I don't want to burst your bubble but you do realize that 3D printing is used for prototyping. It is extremely slow compared to other ways of producing the same thing. Technology is fantastic but you must realize its limitation when you think along the lines of the economics and practicality.

Recycling the wax after a crush and strain is a doable process but not with 3D printing technology.


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## WLC

I'm aware that every technology has it's strengths and weaknesses.

3D printing is slow, and currently costly. However, the prices are dropping, and the speed, precision, and available materials for 3D printing is increasing.

Technically, you could coat any surface with beeswax (or perhaps even artificial propolis).

You could build hive bodies with walls that are self contained feeders...

But, maybe you're right. The 'Jetsons" is still a long way off.


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## belliott

Has anyone ever tried making dies and pressing out comb? I know wax is used on dies to keep them from sticking.
It seems like it would also be possible to make silicon or rubber molds and pour or cast comb foundation.


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## Acebird

How do you get the mold out on a very thin walled comb is the question? Most molds have 1.5 to 2 degree draft which would result in thicker walls at the bottom of the comb verses the top and also tapered cells. Would the bees accept this? Probably because they accept plastic comb.
3D printing will always be slow because the fluid output is slow pumping at a pinpoint. If you know what the geometry will be and it doesn't change you don't need 3D printing. You can make a die out of hard steel and extrude the shape extremely fast like making plastic tubing in gangs. A water jet cutter can cut the comb off the height you want and then marry it to plastic or wax foundation. It might work out better to marry the comb to the foundation first and then cut it off. Either way these would be very fast operations producing drawn out comb almost instantly.
The unknown is the market for fully drawn comb. What will people pay for this technology and what sort of volume will support this technology to make it happen?


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## belliott

I do not know much about working wax. When I worked in a local forge shop, wax was used to create prototype dies. The temp at which it would be worked would be critical. If the wax blanks were warmed it could prevent sticking to the dies. It would probably be necessary to use more than one die, one for roughing,forming and finishing.

With a 2 piece rubber mold,the wax could be poured in hot. After the mold cooled, it would be peeled apart. I remember reading a great thread here back around April before I joined. A few guys were talking about rolling wax foundation. It was a great thread, with lots of info. I'll try to find it when I get home to my computer.


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## Acebird

Foundation only has a shallow impression of the comb. You would not be able to get the die impression out of the comb at full depth.


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## belliott

I know foundation has a shallow impression. How about pressing the comb with a piece of plastic between the halves of the comb. This would allow spring pins to push the comb off the die. If the comb was to be used for cut-comb honey, the halves could be separated from the plastic and attached back together. If the manufactured comb was intended for brood or honey production the inner plastic layer would not be an issue.

Perfect comb should be the goal, but the bee's will alter as they feel necessary.


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## StevenG

Seems like the most cost-effective and efficient way to produce honey comb is to let the bees do it. After all, they produce the wax. So even if you can automate manufacturing wax honeycomb, you still have to have a source for the wax - the honeybee... who as a general rule only secretes it when needed to build comb. opcorn:
Regards,
Steven


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## Acebird

I don't know how much has been tried to produce man made comb in the past. So at this point there isn't a cost or efficiency associated with it. Bees wax is nearly 100% recyclable. The total cost savings may be more in the ease of extracting honey and wax than in the making of the comb although 8 pounds of honey saved for one pound of wax is a good return.


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## sqkcrk

Beeswax may be, but brood combs sure aren't.


----------



## StevenG

I think my point is missed. The wax to use still has to be manufactured. And if you're talking about manufacturing artificial honey comb out of other materials, Google "artificial honeycomb".

Patents for artificial honeycomb were issued in 1912 to Calkins and McDonald; 1917 for honey comb to Edward E. Russell (Any relation, Robert Russell???) and Cutler; 1917, 1920, 1921 to MacDonald for artificial honey comb, and 1921 to Dean.

It is not just intransigence why certain things aren't done by beekeepers. More than likely they've already been tried, and have not worked. If a person is going to try to reinvent the wheel, perhaps research into the wheel ought to be a first step? Commercial beekeepers have demonstrated time and again a desire to make their operations easier, more stream-lined, and cost-effective. You ultimately get to the point where things just cannot be improved upon. Plus the fact, you still have to have the wax to begin with, if you're going to make wax comb mechanically. And look at the lengths to which beekeepers go, to get bees to accept and use plastic foundation.
Regards,
Steven


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## sqkcrk

I had an idea today, while working my bees. It isn't a labor saving device.

I wear a hooded veil half suit most of the time when working bees. The back of the hood lays against the back and/or top of my head. How hard would it be for the manufacturer to attatch an air bladder to the inside of the hood, w/ an air hose so the beekeeper could blow it up every now and then should it deflate? 

Quite often, during the right time of year, I will have a small clump of bees on the top of my head. And it isn't that uncommon, a few times each year, that I get stung thru the hood. Which is somewhat painful, what w/ little hair up there.

I wear a sweat band. Hats don't work for me.

I wonder if BJ Sherif ever got a request like that? And, in case you didn't know, this type of veil is at least Mideval in origin. Talking about nuthin' new under the sun.


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## Acebird

Sounds like your hood needs a stay sewn in so it keeps it's shape away from your head. You can do that yourself.

Steven, shall we bring it to a vote? Would anybody be interested in man made comb using beeswax?


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## WLC

StevenG:

While the Lang and current beekeeping practices are fine for the short term needs of pollinators, honeyproducers, hobbyists, and the like; I see a day, when due to the continuous decline in the number of commercial operations, and the increasingly high cost of manual labor, that automation of certain key aspects of beekeeping will become necessary.


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## sqkcrk

When that time comes we won't automate we will import. Then, only small scale and sideline beekeepers will own bees.


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## Jim 134

sqkcrk said:


> When that time comes we won't automate we will import. Then, only small scale and sideline beekeepers will own bees.



sqkcrk ............

:s Are You going to automate pollinators :s



BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## WLC

When you think about the large number of hives, needed in different regions of the country, then I would say that pollination is one key area of beekeeping that would benefit from some form of automation.

The whole point of even considering automation is to become the exporter and not the importer.

Smarter, better, faster, and cheaper beekeeping doesn't exactly summon up the image of stacks of wooden Langs.


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## sqkcrk

Jim 134 said:


> sqkcrk ............
> 
> :s Are You going to automate pollinators :s
> 
> 
> 
> BEE HAPPY Jim 134


I know what you are getting at, but, just maybe, when a large portion of our fruits and vegetables are imported, as that percentage is rising right now, we won't need pollinators, because the growers of fruits and vegetables won't be in business anymore. Just maybe. This is not a real prediction. Just a reaction to the automation musings of others.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> pollination is one key area of beekeeping that would benefit from some form of automation.
> 
> Smarter, better, faster, and cheaper beekeeping doesn't exactly summon up the image of stacks of wooden Langs.


What, for you does it summon up the image of? 

I could see, and I believe this is happening now, colonies of bees maintained primarily for pollination purposes. Honey being a bothersome by product of beekeeping. After all, which is more important to the general public? That fruits and vegetables, which benefit from pollination, get pollinated, or that tons of honey get produced?

The Business of Pollination is already quite mechanized. How do you see it becoming more so? We have machines to pickup pallets of hives and then load them on semis, which are netted and starpped and driven to where pollination needs are. Then unloaded by machine and put onto smaller trucks to take pallets where they are placed for a period of time and then the process reversed. Moving on to the next pollination and so forth. 

Ending up, after pollination season is over, by being placed in yards for honey production. Honey is removed, placed on pallets and loaded on trucks, using machinery to do so. Machines put the pallets of honey into the honeyhouse. Machines move it around and extracted the honey and load the empty equipment onto trucks to put into storage. Machines move the barrels to storage or load them on trucks for sale. Some big operations have tanker trucks to put their honey into to send it to packers.

Lots of machines are used in modern beekeeping. Maybe some more mechanization/automation could be done, but it would have to come from the individual operation and found beneficial by other such operations.

There is a video somewhere of a beekeeping operation which I was really impressed w/. One thing I remember was a track system which moved the empty honey supers, just the boxes, from where they were emptied to where they were refilled w/ frames. It was an overhead conveyer like system.

They also had a "greenhouse" w/ a Honey Cascade to dry down high moisture honey. And a port under their honey tank to dump a load of honey into a tanker truck. The port was 8 or 10 inches across, in my memory. 

I bet that operation was about as automated as it could possibly be. Except maybe if it had been computerized in some way.


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## WLC

That's pretty good. Especially for honey production.

But, do machines sort out the right types of brood frames, into the right bodies, so that you would have pollinator pallets ready to go?

That's gotta be all beekeeper.


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## swarm_trapper

Mark, i think your talking about Jim Paysons (sp?) operation the inventor of the JZBZ line of products. I have a movie that he made of his operation and he seemed to be way ahead of his time. The movie is: a year with the bees. I think some clips of it are on Youtube

Nick


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> That's gotta be all beekeeper.


Well, sure. All decisions are beekeeper. I'm not sure what you mean by "sort out the right types of brood frames, into the right bodies", the brood frames are already in the right bodies.

Thanks Nic. You are probably correct.

Does anyone know how we can make Colleges more automated, especially regarding Professors?


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> When that time comes we won't automate we will import.


That is the sickening logic that is, and will continue to destroy our country. It doesn't matter who you put in Washington. Lord knows how many times that has been proven. When a capitalistic system gives up on competing it is done for.

Foreign businesses will own bees in this country just like foreign businesses own thriving businesses in this country now. We will have the pleasure of working for two shades above minimum wage or take hand outs.

Honey is a luxury. Think of where that is going in a broken economic system.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Does anyone know how we can make Colleges more automated, especially regarding Professors?


Are you kidding, the craze today is on line courses. People don't waste time traveling to classes.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> The Business of Pollination is already quite mechanized. How do you see it becoming more so? We have machines to pickup pallets of hives and then load them on semis, which are netted and starpped and driven to where pollination needs are. Then unloaded by machine and put onto smaller trucks to take pallets where they are placed for a period of time and then the process reversed. Moving on to the next pollination and so forth.
> 
> Ending up, after pollination season is over, by being placed in yards for honey production. Honey is removed, placed on pallets and loaded on trucks, using machinery to do so. Machines put the pallets of honey into the honeyhouse. Machines move it around and extracted the honey and load the empty equipment onto trucks to put into storage. Machines move the barrels to storage or load them on trucks for sale. Some big operations have tanker trucks to put their honey into to send it to packers.
> 
> Lots of machines are used in modern beekeeping. Maybe some more mechanization/automation could be done, but it would have to come from the individual operation and found beneficial by other such operations.


I suggested commercial operations would have hives already placed on pallets and got essentially laughed at. Having hives on pallets to start with would eliminate two moves.

I suggested man made comb so the beekeeper would just pick frames out of the box put it in a simple machine that would strip the frame into a barrel and then put a fresh frame with drawn out comb back in the hive, never leaving the bee yard. The beekeeper can still decide right at the hive if the frame is worth extracting or not, check for diseases or what ever.

You know what is required of a beekeeper I don't. Think about all the time and effort you spend doing your job and then find ways of eliminating it. Don't worry about the details, someone else may be more suited at solving the details. Just focus on what needs to be eliminated not what can be eliminated. If you do what has always been done, nothing can be eliminated. That is the rut you are in.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> That is the sickening logic that is, and will continue to destroy our country.


Why, thank you. So, how do you see our continuing rise in outsourcing food production?

If you eat tomatoes grown in the US, during the winter, did you know you are supporting Slave Labor?


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> I suggested commercial operations would have hives already placed on pallets and got essentially laughed at. Having hives on pallets to start with would eliminate two moves.
> 
> You know what is required of a beekeeper I don't.
> 
> That is the rut you are in.


Since hives are already on pallets and have been for over 1/2 a century, I am sure that it wasn't that suggestion people were laughing at, but some other.

I am not in a rut. I know no commercial beekeepers who are in a rut.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Since hives are already on pallets and have been for over 1/2 a century, I am sure that it wasn't that suggestion people were laughing at, but some other.




http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ain-and-owned-22-hives-what-would-u-buy/page3
Post #25


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## Oldtimer

Acebird said:


> Think about all the time and effort you spend doing your job and then find ways of eliminating it. Don't worry about the details, someone else may be more suited at solving the details. Just focus on what needs to be eliminated not what can be eliminated. If you do what has always been done, nothing can be eliminated. That is the rut you are in.


This little titbit is an example of why the thread has gone negative, Ace. There seems to be a pre-supposition in some of your posts that beekeepers are just mechanically following inefficient systems and have never even thought about what they do, in fact, they are mindlessly stuck in a rut, and should take advice from someone "more suited".

We know you have great difficullty performing even the most basic tasks such as taking a frame out of your beehive. That is why some folks are not quite ready for you to be telling them how it should be done, and I don't see how it could be reasonable to expect otherwise.

Advise coming from someone who has never seen a commercial bee operation, or commercial beekeeper at work. The the person being told they are "are stuck in a rut", knows you actually know next to nothing about what they actually do, or about what bees do, and therefore will reject your ideas if they are presented in a pompous, high handed manner. That's how the thread's gone so far, and will continue to go.

In contrast, I have seen on the commercial forum, beginner beeks come and ask questions and present ideas for discussion, and get good discussion on even not-so-good ideas, simply because the idea was presented in a less "know it all" type way. Someone who has worked bees every day for most of their life can see immediately the flaws in your origional ideas, whereas you cannot, due to lack of experience and knowledge.


----------



## hpm08161947

ACE: I think you are reading that thread wrong. All commercial pollinators have their bees on pallets. Keep them on pallets. That thread seems to be referring to a guy with 22 hives.


----------



## Beezly

Acebird said:


> You know what is required of a beekeeper I don't. .


Absolutely the most cohesive and astute thing I have read in the many posts of yours that I have read. THIS statement by you reveals the answer to why there is a preponderance of incredulity in response to much of what you propose here and in many of your other posts. And yet, while you know the clear answer to why reading and getting more knowledgeable on the many aspects of beekeeping is indeed the best path to follow, you will continue to follow the path of trying to tell very EXPERIENCED beeks the better way. wow.


----------



## StevenG

Acebird said:


> Sounds like your hood needs a stay sewn in so it keeps it's shape away from your head. You can do that yourself.
> 
> Steven, shall we bring it to a vote? Would anybody be interested in man made comb using beeswax?


Ace, seems like man made comb, using beeswax and other materials, has already been voted on... more than 50 years ago, and the vote was negative.
Regards,
Steven


----------



## Nabber86

hpm08161947 said:


> ACE: I think you are reading that thread wrong. All commercial pollinators have their bees on pallets. Keep them on pallets. That thread seems to be referring to a guy with 22 hives.


But Ace thinks 22 hives *is* a commercial operation and he is also having problems understanding the differences between polinators and honey producers.


----------



## rrussell6870

StevenG said:


> Ace, seems like man made comb, using beeswax and other materials, has already been voted on... more than 50 years ago, and the vote was negative.


More than 50... my family (great uncle) designed and patented a man-made comb hinge system around 1915... the system was simple... it was a hinge in the center of a deep frame with telescoping clips so that once the comb was build by the bees, it could be folded to create two smaller combs and making one deep frame into two shallow or mediums (depending on the comb right that was used)... this system was used for stocking mating nucs, rotating feed frames in and out of the brood nest, and stocking nucs for increase... that was nearly 100 years ago... it was a neat idea, but ultimately just not necessary because the cost of lumber has never been high enough to drive a demand for such a thing...

WLC, That same uncle (I can't for the life of me remember his name but I think it was Ed or Eugene), also created a sectional comb system that is much like the hogg system, but with the intent of taking small squares of brood from a deep frame and snap them into a mini frame (as well as honey combs for food) to stock minis for queen rearing and increases... also almost 100 years ago... at the same time his brother (my grandfather) was testing mating nuc methods using mainly chest type boxes with top bar frames in them... a much more simple design... but one that is still used today, only the boxes are no longer chests with hinged tops.


----------



## StevenG

RRussell, his name was Edward, patent was issued in 1917. you missed the post, #277, and I wondered if he was related. Not a lot new under the sun, huh? And yet, as you and other commercial beekeepers have posted, you folks have done a lot to automate, mechanize, and streamline your operations in a cost-effective manner. We sideliners certainly have benefitted. 
Regards,
Steven


----------



## waynesgarden

Acebird said:


> I suggested commercial operations would have hives already placed on pallets and got essentially laughed at. Having hives on pallets to start with would eliminate two moves.


You got laughed at for three reasons. The first reason is that pallets have been around for decades and in use by those whose operations require hives to be moved regularly. The second reason is ignorance of commercial operations that are stationary. Since that post you linked to is a reply to me, I'll tell you that as I move to small-scale commercial, having hives on pallets that may not move for years makes no sense. The third reason you were laughed at is that you threw in your "expertise" in commercial beekeeping when the thread was specifically about someone with 22 hives, not a commercial operation.



Acebird said:


> You know what is required of a beekeeper I don't.


And yet you persist... OK, that's a fourth reason that you are laughed at.

Wayne


----------



## rrussell6870

LOL. Thanks StevenG... I had not been reading this thread for a while until I received an email with your post that I quoted above, so yes I apparently have missed a lot of posts... I checked my vault of old memoirs, notes, and journals (a nice collection of hand written notes and records, not just from my family, but also some things from laidlaw, brother Adam, and many others... going to be auctioned off to raise funds to start a EHB conservation organization when all else finally fails)...

His name was indeed Edward, went by Ed at least in letters that my grandfather wrote to him... I also found the original patent registration... didn't even know it was available on the net... pretty neat. Thanks for bringing that to my attention...

Yes, we do make alterations to our systems from time to time... for the most part, these alterations are due to the equipment that we have available at the moment, the condition of the colonies, or the projected purpose that we intend to use them for that season or the next... that said, our main goal is optimum bee health so that THEY are the most productive that they can be... we work around their productivity after that... meaning that the systems that we use must remain flexible enough to change purpose and more importantly, they must not hinder the health, expansion, productivity, or longevity of the colonies. Hope that makes sense.


----------



## Jim 134

sqkcrk said:


> I know what you are getting at


 You do not :no:


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


----------



## Acebird

Oldtimer said:


> In contrast, I have seen on the commercial forum, beginner beeks come and ask questions and present ideas for discussion, and get good discussion on even not-so-good ideas, simply because the idea was presented in a less "know it all" type way. Someone who has worked bees every day for most of their life can see immediately the flaws in your origional ideas, whereas you cannot, due to lack of experience and knowledge.


Is this a know it all statement: "You know what is required of a beekeeper I don't."? What part of my post do you actually read?
You would like me to think that three hundred posts are all bad discussion. That is negative. I don't think that way at all. I think much of the discussion is pretty good. Ideas are just that, ideas. There are good and bad ideas. Even the bad ideas can stimulate a good idea with minor changes. I guess you can't see that. That is your limitation not mine.

"Know it all" I don't think so. But I do know some things that you don't. It is a pity that bothers you.


----------



## Acebird

waynesgarden said:


> having hives on pallets that may not move for years makes no sense.


It comes in handy when you are trying to protect your hives in a hurricane, even if you only had 22.


----------



## cg3

Acebird said:


> It comes in handy when you are trying to protect your hives in a hurricane


Cuts down on the number of 5 gallon buckets you need?


----------



## Charlie B

cg3 said:


> Cuts down on the number of 5 gallon buckets you need?


:lpf:


----------



## Oldtimer

Acebird said:


> Is this a know it all statement: "You know what is required of a beekeeper I don't."?


No that is not a know it all statement. In fact it was much more constructive to a useful discussion than normal.



Acebird said:


> But I do know some things that you don't. It is a pity that bothers you.


 But that is. Know it all, and pompous.

Fact is, you no doubt do know some things I don't. But I'm pretty certain not in the beekeeping feild. And does any of that "bother me"? No, that's just another one of your assumptions.



Acebird said:


> Even the bad ideas can stimulate a good idea with minor changes. I guess you can't see that.


"Can't see that"? Yes I can, You obviously didn't read my post.



Oldtimer said:


> I have seen on the commercial forum, beginner beeks come and ask questions and present ideas for discussion, and get good discussion on even not-so-good ideas, simply because the idea was presented in a less "know it all" type way.


Looking at what I've written, it's all just an argument. Not really a useful beekeeping discussion. But since you've falsely challenged me on those things, I decided to answer you on them particularly as you've written falsehoods about me. And that would be the problem with the whole thread as you've been doing exactly the same to others.


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## Beezly

Acebird said:


> There are good and bad ideas. Even the bad ideas can stimulate a good idea with minor changes. .


The word CAN should be changed to MIGHT. Not ALL bad ideas can be good ideas with minor changes. Sometimes they are just bad, should be left in the rear quadrants of the brain ideas.

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken poooo.


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## Keith Jarrett

Holly molly..... I need to get back unneath the the bus, maybe I should up grade to a armor bus.


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## waynesgarden

Acebird said:


> It comes in handy when you are trying to protect your hives in a hurricane, even if you only had 22.


Since I've never lost a hive to a hurricane in my life, nor have most beekeepers not living in areas prone to to them, I don't really see any benefit to pallets for stationary hives, but I'll consider it now....Hmmm, I suppose if we actually did have a hurricane every hundred years or so, it could occur in my lifetime so is having a pallet that _could possibly _ save a hive a good investment? Is it worth giving up the orderly rows of hives that I enjoy working? Is it worth having to bend over more because the hives are lower to the ground? Is it worth losing those extra few inches of height that my hives need to keep the top entrance above the snowline? Oh, and is it worth having to invest in a bobcat or fork lift just to be able to move a hive? (I will assume that you've done your homework and know for a fact that having 22 hives makes access to a forklift cost-effective.)

Nah. 

5 gallon buckets would be a better investment since they can be used for countless other actual purposes.

Wayne


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## Intheswamp

Beezly said:


> You can't make chicken salad out of chicken poooo.


Well, you could...but who'd want to eat it?


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## valleyman

Intheswamp said:


> Well, you could...but who'd want to eat it?


Certain birds and other chickens!!!!!!


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## rrussell6870

Keith Jarrett said:


> I need to get back unneath the the bus, maybe I should up grade to a armor bus.


:lpf::lpf:


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## mac

The thing is that you can’t limit the labor of a beekeeper with automation; we just establish more hives thus increasing labor. And if ya are able to limit a beekeepers labor that labor is shifted to someone else. Someone or lots of some ones have to set up the system, build the system, maintain the system, manufacture the system, manufacture the materials for the system like steal, plastic, brass, copper, rubber, etc. Someone has to generate the energy to manufacture all these new materials and then when the system poops out someone has to disassemble it recycle it and take most of it to the dump. This new automated system has to be photographed, advertising has to be created. Ads have to be printed in magazines and web pages created. Someone has to shop it around to beekeepers and do demonstrations at trade shows to promote it all so I as a beekeeper don’t have to handle a bee box more than once???? Give me a break. That’s what’s wrong with the world today. If ya have 100 hives and ya want to save labor sell 50 ya just decreased labor by 50% and increased your bottom line it’s that simple. As for comb honey it’s a niche market mostly a novelty item or old guys like me like it.


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## crofter

I think that hits the nail Mac. Automation can be good (for someone) if it replaces 30$ an hour labor that cost 50$ plus with benefits. The employment replaced has to be subsidized by society at large. Sometimes mechanization can allow things to be done around the clock or in all weather that manual labour can only do one shift in good conditions. Mechanization of forestry has (not) been a wonderful thing for much of Canada. They rape the forest quicker and there are thousands of good men on welfare because of it. 

I have a feeling that in not too many years there will be lots of labor available and it wont be popular to promote mechanization or offshoring our work. That plan is starting to show some serious limitations globally.


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## lazy shooter

Until we become a totally socialist nation, which I pray never happens, the market will determine all costs in the long haul. If machines are more cost effective, they will prevail. It becomes a simple issue of "bottom line." That is a mixed blessing in that less expensive products benefit all of us, and at the same time it diminishes our labor pool. I have been thinking the use of machinery to replace labor would cause an anomaly in the labor market, and that we would have unbearable unemployment numbers. In the end, competitive bee keepers will make the most cost effective methods of production. This may be accomplished through less labor costs and it may be accomplished with more mechanization. One poster indirectly mentioned the "law of diminishing returns." Some of you may need to look into the possibility of reducing your operation in order to enhance the bottom line.


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## sqkcrk

Or grow your own Labor Force, like Roland. I know a number of Commercial Beekeepers who have done that successfully.


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## WLC

By the way, I did get a 3D print ready design for the tray. However, I need to resize it.

Also, 3D printing is only cost effective for making prototypes. But, I am looking over using something other than plastic for making the trays.


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## Acebird

lazy shooter said:


> I have been thinking the use of machinery to replace labor would cause an anomaly in the labor market, and that we would have unbearable unemployment numbers.


It just doesn't work that way, more the other way. It puts people to work and increases GNP. It may mean less work for the beekeeping operation but in all it is a net gain. Not reducing your costs on a continual basis will surely bring the business off shore.


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## Charlie B

Acebird said:


> Not reducing your costs on a continual basis will surely bring the business off shore.


Acebird is setting himself up for his next thread: *How to maximize pallet buoyancy with 5 gal buckets to float your hives to India.*


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## rrussell6870

The more you take the seasoned bee keeper out of the hives, the less hives will be alive to work... we can't take anything to the global table if we can't produce enough of it to meet our own needs first... between the issues that our industry faces already and the overwhelming demand from within our own borders, export is just not feasible... we have been exporting for several decades, but have to cap what we will allow outside interest to purchase because we have a responsibility to supply OUR OWN country first... the border closures to imports have already caused a sky rocket in demand, which was already outside our industries capabilities... 

making some tasks easier, ok... making some tasks faster, ok... jumping to global markets, not until we can can produce a surplus that exceeds our own markets needs. Until then it would be a win/lose... you may take a little if their money (which we probably already own them way more than they would be spending), but they will get the bees that we cannot replace... for a resource that valuable to us to be depleted in exchange for a few bucks is just silly, and some of what put our country in the turmoil that it is in today... with a focus on the bottom line and a quest for lowering labor, we purchased everything that we could have made ourselves from others... now we have extremely high unemployment rates, mountains of debt to other countries, cheap junk that breaks down and fills our country with trash that WE have to find a place for, and a lazy and addicted society that can't understand why its happening this way while they continue to support it by buying goods that are imported by companies that are only made up of suits, emails, and phone calls... no money was paid to an American to produce these goods, no Monet was paid to an American to ship these goods, no money was paid to an American to market these goods, even the office workers of these companies are in other countries... so the only thing that an American has to do with these products, is That is who is paying for them... from there, the money is filtered directly to other countries... 

if you tip a pail of water, eventually it will become run empty... that's what our economy has done... run empty... we do not produce enough resources to trade with other nations to equal a fraction of the amount that we spend buying from them... with each market, you must first meet the internal demands and develop a sustainable, renewable system by which a surplus can be produced... that surplus can then be marketed to other interests... the honey bee industry in the US is no longer able to consider this... varroa put an end to that, and now shb and colony collapse have nailed that coffin... 

Production of honey bees begins with good husbandry... take that away, and you can not produce enough to have any for yourself, much less anyone else...


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## Acebird

Is it the loss of bees or the loss of bee keepers that is causing the supply to not meet the demand?
If there were higher profits associated with beekeeping there would be a lot more beekeepers in spite of the perils. You want me to believe that the demand is skyrocketed and the price has gone down? How does that happen?

Who is talking about eliminating the seasoned beekeeper? We are talking about freeing up the beekeepers time and effort so he can spend it on more business. If these beekeepers have no interest in expanding or growing their business then do what you have been doing. It makes you happy doesn't it?


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## Beezly

Acebird said:


> If there were higher profits associated with beekeeping there would be a lot more beekeepers in spite of the perils. We are talking about freeing up the beekeepers time and effort so he can spend it on more business. If these beekeepers have no interest in expanding or growing their business then do what you have been doing. It makes you happy doesn't it?


#1 - There are more, they are in thailand and all over china sending garbage to the US.
#2 - WE are talking? I thought this was about labor reduction according to your thread. So the good news here with your ideas is that we as beekeepers can get away from the process of beekeeping and spend more time on business? Really? Most everything that I have read, and talked with other beeks about bees is that we all (with avian exceptions) got into beekeeping due to our passion for bees. Business is secondary, even when it seems to take a front seat to the process. I find it hard to believe that any of the successful , ( or even not so much) beekeepers got into the business side because they wanted to make a buck and the bees were just the path to fortunes. There are alot of ways, even with the same or less investment to make substantially more income in other lines that don't sting and sometimes die out.
#3 - Expanding or growing....hmmm... Russell apiaries, michael palmer, michael bush, mark (sqkcrk), stahlman, and so many others, show this passion that they have for keeping bees and their survival is the driving force behind their success. They understand the manual labor side of the business is necessary for the success. They are open to good ideas to limit the labor, But are unwilling to explore every thought that permeates from an unexperienced mind that happens to waft their way.
Expansion and growing a company is not always a sign of success. Being an engineer one day and cutting grass the next also does not make one a failure.

You should look into opportunities at think tanks for employment. some of them pay people well to think up unproven, untried, even irrational ideas so that they can have future opportunities to bilk more investors out of their HARD earned cash. 
This thread does have merit, but just thinking out loud and having something to say does not always have merit. sometimes it just shines a light on the bald spot in your brain. (and yes, i have an inverted mohawk).


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## rrussell6870

Acebird...........Is it the loss of bees or the loss of bee keepers that is causing the supply to not meet the demand?

Loss of bees of course... there is a new generation of dedicated bee keepers coming along that are eager to learn and striving hard to pick up the torch...

Acebird...........If there were higher profits associated with beekeeping there would be a lot more beekeepers in spite of the perils. 

Perils? Higher profits? That's like saying "If lawers made $250k a year instead of $225k, the tie wouldnt bother me"... working bees means that you get stung, losing bees means you have an oportunity to learn and try something differently... Most people make absolutely Nothing off of their bees, and instead continue to invest more and more into them.. its because they enjoy working bees... everyone would love to make more money, no matter how much they are making now, but that doesnt mean that they are not doing well...

Acebird...........You want me to believe that the demand is skyrocketed and the price has gone down? How does that happen?

The demand has skyrocketed, but I have no idea where you get that the price has gone down... Maybe you are referring to my comment about getting a low price for bees in the international market?? If so, then yes... by moving to the global market the price per unit goes down substantially... the only benefit is in mass bulk... thats the way it works... no one is going to buy 10 hives and ship them to romania... but they may by ten thousand hives at 55% of the local market price and ship the whole load, then resell them once in the new country...

Acebird...........Who is talking about eliminating the seasoned beekeeper? We are talking about freeing up the beekeepers time and effort so he can spend it on more business. 

Exactly.. If he is focussing on "business" instead of bees, where is he? Not in the hives... People seem to fuss a lot about not being able to reach me... am I in meetings all day? No, I am in bee hives all day... Take me away from those hives and all you will get is just another bee... Its the seasoned bee keeper that turns the bees into a product... you can go to walmart and look at all of the different types of toasters, and probably get a good idea as to which one is better made, but you can not do that in agriculture... be it bees, horses, cattle, or crops... the experience of the farmer makes all the difference in the final product... a tractor can turn over a field and put seeds in the ground while a "so-called" farmer Talks on the phone about how great his crop will be, but if he does not get out in the fields regularly and has no experience actually growing, protecting, and harvesting that crop as well as caring for the soil for his next seasons planting, his crop will be poor at best...

Acebird...........If these beekeepers have no interest in expanding or growing their business then do what you have been doing. It makes you happy doesn't it?

Are you implying that I do not grow and expand my business?? Seriously? That has got to be one of your more "out there" statements...


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## StevenG

opcorn: I'm still trying to figure out Acebird's insane comment about a hobby beekeeper putting 22 hives on pallets and justifying the use of a forklift....for only 22 hives. Just in case of hurricane... 

And RRussell hit the nail on the head... the business of beekeeping is...._*Bees!*_ You forget that, you're not going to make ANY money at all! Not from honey, not from pollination, not from selling queens or nucs or whatever. I'm going to get my hip waders....the ignorance displayed is getting way too deep.
Regards,
Steven


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## Keith Jarrett

StevenG;708562 I'm going to get my hip waders....the ignorance displayed is getting way too deep.
Regards said:


> What gave you that idea.


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## jim lyon

I am not going to directly respond to any of this endless dialogue, I am going to maintain the boycott I established about 300 posts ago. The purpose of this post is to advance a theory that I have been formulating for quite some time. Acebird must, in fact, be an alter ego, A figment of someones fertile imagination if you will. But who, you ask, would do such a thing? There is only one logical candidate. Who benefits from all this interest in a single thread? Who suddenly and inexplicably loses all interest in post deletions? Who could be this author of over 1400 posts in only 6 months. Yes I am afraid it must be true. Acebird is in reality...............BARRY!!!!! That crafty devil, he's been playing us like a Taylor guitar. Yes I know there is a picture in his profile, what a perfect strategy. I'm betting it's his brother-in-law or maybe just the neighbor down the street who knows. In any case we've been had, we most definitely have been had..


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## rrussell6870

Lol! Jim, I was about to say Batman in an ominous voice, but then I remembered that we actually do have a fellow here that uses that name! Lol. 

Barry, if its you, I'm buying you a beer and bringing a whoopy cushion to the bar... :lpf:

But if ace is really just ace, I'm going to have to do like Jim and return to my peacefully hectic life of hard work and peace of mind. Boycott is a nice term, but its more like a quarantine... you know what they say, if you play with the birds, you get pooped on... lol. I'm sure that was suppose to have something to do with dogs and flees, but you get the point...


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## WLC

So, you're all saying that the Lang is going to be around for another 160 years, and there is no way to reduce the labor involved in managing bees?

You may be right.

But, I've seen test tubes and petri plates replaced by well tray systems that out produce the old ways by orders of magnitude.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> So, you're all saying that the Lang is going to be around for another 160 years, and there is no way to reduce the labor involved in managing bees?


When form and function suitable to meet the needs and do the job. Were change necassary, or when change is necassary, change will come, changes will be made, by those doing the job, beekeeping for all of its' purposes.

If this Thread has shown anything, it has shown that those w/ experience are pretty satisfied w/ their equipment and the amount of labor needed to work that equipment. Also, not to be critical, that changes to methods, practices and equipment related to Labor don't come from, won't come from, dare I say, can't come from, someone(s) w/ two hives and two years in bees.

But thanks for trying. It has brought a certain solidarity.

I guess I blew my boycott too. Darn.


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## Nabber86

I thought Ace and WLC were the same person. For awhile there he was arguing with himself. :scratch:


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## Acebird

333 posts, I love how you guys boycott...


> change will come, changes will be made, by those doing the job,


In no other industry is that true. Usually they are a supportive part of change but rarely will they encourage it.

Beezly it takes more than cutting grass to maintain a 20+ year facility. But everything has to get done. So if certain types of work are beneath you then it is not a job for you.
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/RoofPaint.jpg

85 gals of paint a day for 7 or 8 days.


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## zippelk

On the one hand, Langstroth says "Let me not for a moment be understood as wishing to discourage investigation [in changes to the establishment], or to intimate that perfection has been so nearly attained that no more important discoveries remain to be made. On the contrary...I hope that every intelligent beekeeper who follows my plans will experiment at least on a small scale."

But he also says "the man who attempts to palm upon the community his own conceits for facts will speedily earn himself the character both of a fool and an impostor."

there ya go.


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## Beeboy01

Boy I feel like I've been listening to Abbott and Costello's "Who's On First" routine while reading this thread. Got to admit there has been some interesting points brought up, great entertainment, keep it up.


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## Beezly

Acebird said:


> Beezly it takes more than cutting grass to maintain a 20+ year facility. But everything has to get done. So if certain types of work are beneath you then it is not a job for you.
> http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/RoofPaint.jpg
> 
> 85 gals of paint a day for 7 or 8 days.


Once again acebird, you know NOT of what you speak. I am and have been since leaving the navy in 1990 a PAINTING contractor. and most of the time i use a brush and roller, because even when you spray, you need to back roll for a quality lasting job.
I was indeed giving you a compliment, rounda bout, but a compliment. I won't try that again...and NO job is beneath me or should be for anyone. Blue collar is honorable and the backbone of the economy. Try for once to think before engaging your responses. Once again, i guess it is everybody else and not you.

And i noticed you were not wearing a respirator while spraying those roofs...even outside it should be worn for your saftey. But this could explain your responses...the fumes are getting to you.


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## Acebird

Beezly said:


> Once again acebird, you know NOT of what you speak. I am and have been since leaving the navy in 1990 a PAINTING contractor. and most of the time i use a brush and roller, because even when you spray, you need to back roll for a quality lasting job.


Something tells me you are not doing metal roofs with a brush and a roller. If you touch a roller or a brush to aluminized paint after it is sprayed down it will turn black or streaked. My wife tried rolling it down on the first building which I had to go over with another spray coat. She does most of the interior painting and likes a roller finish. However it didn't take long to show her the error of her ways on a metal roof.

You wouldn't stand a chance underbidding someone with a Graco roof rig like I was using if you are doing it with a brush and a roller. The quality is just not there and it will take you 4 times longer. OSHA probably requires a mask because they are OSHA. The paint is metalized and heavy. Spraying a roof with an airless gun with an 18 inch extension means the over spray goes down at your feet not up in your face. A pair of jeans and sneakers was thrown into the dumpster after the job was done. Figure that in on your quotes if you like.

It is quite common now to do interior painting with a spray gun. As an experiment I did the prime coat with a gun on our rental property. I can tell you it is unbelievably fast. There were some sections I had to roll out until I got the knack of the lighter paint and smaller rig. But once I got the hang of it, it does a perfectly smooth job without any back rolling. If you are going to replace the carpet or floors you should look into a good airless gun because nobody with a brush or roller could beat your price. (unless you are working for beekeepers wages)


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## Beezly

Ace, You argue with beeks with 5 generations of family experience in the field who have doctorates. You argue with beeks that have incredibly more experience with bees than you will ever have. You argue with people who have actually experienced tropical storm weather. Now you argue with a person who has painted professionally both residential and commercial with many crews and thousands, yes, thousands of satisfactorily completed projects. I could not care less what your wife has painted, where you went to school, what experiences you have had with paint, bees, storms, or twiddlin your thumbs. You are wrong. Your post above is incorrect, do some research. ask a PAINTER, no not someone who has painted a doghouse or a metal roof. You have repeatedly shown your ignorance on so many subjects, and on so many levels that it is, whle entertaining to see someone make a complete ass of themself, very sad. Many on this site have tried to nudge you to shut your mouth and for possibly once in your life humble yourself enough to realize that there are indeed others on this planet who may know more about some subjects than acebird. You are correct in a statement that you made to a previous post...You do know more about at least one subject than i and obviously many others on this site. You know how to show your complete ignorance in such a way that it has made it clear to all that even with your many posts in such a short time, that your advice cannot be taken seriously and definitely not trusted if someone wants to keep their bees alive.
I am yet one more that will no longer reply to your idiocy.


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## mac

As someone who has never painted anything other than beehives I can attest to the fact that you should develop a labor saving device for roof painting. May I suggest a larger spray head consisting of 5,10 or even 20 spray heads to maximize your time and labor spent. A rolling device should also be developed to reduce fatigue of the operator. A 4 wheeler with a spray head like the ones used in row crop spraying. A forklift could be utilized to move the 4 wheeler from building to building. I’m just throwing ideas out there. What do ya think???


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## mac

Acebird said:


> Knowledge is the easiest thing you can give that doesn’t cost money.


Knowledge can ONLY be given by the knowledgeable.


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## Barry

Acebird said:


> It is quite common now to do interior painting with a spray gun.


Maybe where you live, but certainly not anywhere in the greater Chicago area. You wouldn't get work here even if you were the lowest bid.


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## rrussell6870

Ever consider actually cleaning the metal before trying to roll it? Guess that would have caused the job to become too "work-like" for you... wonder how much more "efficient" spraying that roof as opposed to rolling it will turn out being after it has to be repeated every year? I could certainly see how you could under bid painting contractors by spraying everything, because you are only putting a fraction of the paint on the wall that the actual painters would have... 

Does quality mean anything at all to you, or is it too much work to try to improve yourself instead of telling everyone else in the world to just lower their standards for the sake of "efficiency"?

Just to be clear, I have sprayed acrylic enamel (after cleaning it thoroughly) on a metal roof... then rolled it afterwards...14 years later, it looks like a new car and has never peeled, cracked, or leaked... I used FAR more paint (about 5 times as much) when I rolled it compared to when I sprayed it, but I also only sprayed the gutters (same material) and did not roll them... they lasted about 11 months... so if the roof coat had only lasted for a year after spraying it only, then in the 14 years that this roof coat has lasted, I would have used 14 times the paint and about 7 times the labor just spraying it only... almost everything in life is like that, doing it right the first time is the first step towards efficiency... if you start looking for the easy way out for the start, you have no foundation to build upon...

Barry, not in my area either...

And Ace, it may help you as a "contractor" to know that the lowest bid is most often Not the chosen one... there are many other considerations involved such as quality, professionalism, honesty, dependablity, etc... and if bids are low enough, the contractor is usually called in to revise his bid, giving him the benefit of the doubt that he made a mistake or mis-understood the job details... if his return bid is still unproportionally lower than the others, he will not be asked to bid on the next contract. 

Mac, post #341 is perfect! My side still hurts from laughing... 

WLC, There is a use for automation in bee keeping, its just not in this market (at least within the next few decades)... however, the scientific community is always spending far too much money on theoretical studies... hint hint... way back in the thread, I tried to explain why the vertical (lang) hives were so much more practical to bee keepers, its the method of expansion of the colonies that makes them work so well... a lateral hive would reduce that expansion and thus production... some time after that, I told you about the Walt Disney Corporations efforts at creating a "remote controlled" bee keeper and thus a hive with frames that can be broken down into segments small enough that the robot can manipulate combs in almost any way... THAT is your market... automation is needed for the theoretical practices of farming upon space stations, sea labs, and under-ground or bio enclosed facilities... that is where you will need to focus first... yes it is futuristic, but that's where the wild ideas go to get hammered down into practical options as our situation evolves over time. So don't lose hope, just change targets. Hope this helps.


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## Beezly

Mac,
That IS a good idea that sticks with the thread. 
Robert, you are correct, it is not about just getting the paint on the wall, or roof, ADHESION is why things are backrolled. It sounds like you did an excellent , well thought out job. 
And the contractors that give the lowest bids may get more work at first, but they are always the ones who live job to job and then go bankrupt and have to find work that is out of their field. 
In contracting as well as all professions, reputation is EVERYTHING. 
It is good to read posts that show actual knowledge of what they are talking about.
I for one hope that I never give any of you an answer that may harm your bees, or screw up something you are working on, or harm you due to my lack of knowledge. BUT if i do make a mistake, i would appreciate being called on it, and will be the first to admit my mistake publicly.
Thanks,
mike


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## WLC

Doc russell:

That's why I'm examining a tray type system where the combs in the tray can be realligned for a horizontal or vertical hive. I've got a tray design for a medium body, horizontal only, to examine the issues involved.

Let's put it this way: it's another project for students to do where I can use bees as an excuse to explore other issues (like 3D printing).


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## Acebird

Wow! Are all beekeepers this backward?
None of these roofs are painted with a brush or a roller. The substrates are metal, asphalt, and tile and wood. Graco doesn't make a roof rig for the heck of it. Contractors are using what they make everywhere in the world.
http://www.google.com/search?q=roof...&ei=fatwTpuULaT50gHNwdmYCg&sqi=2&ved=0CGEQsAQ

http://www.yellowpages.com/east-chicago-in/spray-painting-finishing
You sure about that Barry?

Mac, I am sure your idea is being used in some fashion on very large roof systems. It would be dedicated equipment though not the red neck version you discribed.


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## waynesgarden

Beezly said:


> .... it has made it clear to all that even with your many posts in such a short time, that your advice cannot be taken seriously and definitely not trusted if someone wants to keep their bees alive.


There is a band-aid solution to posted ignorance:

Click on the member's name, click on "View Profile," click on "add to ignore list," click on "add."

Wayne


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## cg3

Only twice in 35 years have we hired interior spray painters. The second time was when we were dissatisfied with the first job and were told a more experienced spray contractor could do a better job. It'll never happen again. You could see right through the paint. Maybe I flatter myself that we do above average work but we've found that low bids do not equal low final costs. The only real use we've found for spray is clear finishes and, maybe, a landlord clean-up paint job between tenants.


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## rrussell6870

Acebird said:


> Wow! Are all beekeepers this backward?
> None of these roofs are painted with a brush or a roller. The substrates are metal, asphalt, and tile and wood. Graco doesn't make a roof rig for the heck of it. Contractors are using what they make everywhere in the world.
> http://www.google.com/search?q=roof...and most show the painters ROLLING the roofs.


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## waynesgarden

cg3 said:


> Only twice in 35 years have we hired interior spray painters.


We use interior spray painting in every house and commercial project that we build. Of course, these are modular structures and when the walls are primer painted, they do not have trim, recepticles, windows, cabinets or anything else installed in them at the time. 

Finish coats and touchup is always done later with rollers/brushes. Spraying would be a mess and not very cost effective. (I'm assuming Ace is now arguing for all interior painting to be done via spray gun? Ha! Never mind, I'm ignoring his posts.)

Wayne


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## StevenG

rrussell6870 said:


> :lpf: guess it would have taken too much effort to actually look at the pics in the link that you posted.... because they are of some very nice roof paint jobs and most show the painters ROLLING the roofs.


  This just keeps getting better and better! opcorn:


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## Barry

Acebird said:


> http://www.yellowpages.com/east-chicago-in/spray-painting-finishing
> You sure about that Barry?


Yep, positive. I'm in the residential construction business. Two listings for spray painting is hardly any support against what I said. They're both for commercial/industrial. 

"It is quite common now to do interior painting with a spray gun"

Let's just say "in your local area."


----------



## Acebird

You guys can do as you like. The house I did is a rehab no different than new construction. You are going to replace all the windows and floors. The receptacles just get taped, no biggy. The finish coat is no more messier than the first coat. The casings are painted the same as the walls. It is a rental after all. You do have to have a higher skill level with a gun and good equipment. That could be your problem.

It doesn't look like you are ignoring my posts Wayne.

I did not say all interior painting is done with a gun I said it is quit common. That means it is not a half baked idea. You are not going to paint a single room or one full of furniture. Typically new and rehab construction and some exterior siding.


----------



## Barry

Nobody around here goes for trim painted with wall paint. That IS a sure sign of no craftsmanship and quality. Trim must be painted with a brush, and I always use oil.


----------



## Acebird

Oh wow, oil? It is practically obsolete. Bad for the environment and bad on the pocket book.


----------



## Tom G. Laury

This is better than Keith Jarrett vs. BjornBee.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

I can still see the screen underneath this bus.

P.S. don't leave out good ole Chef I. lol


----------



## rrussell6870

Once again, just shows that its "Quality" that you deem to require too much effort or cost...


----------



## rrussell6870

So what exactly did you spray that roof with again? You may have to go read the bucket... I'm sure its on top of your car that's parked on a pallet being held up by a fork lift, so that a hurricane doesnt get it....


----------



## Barry

Acebird said:


> Oh wow, oil? It is practically obsolete.


Certainly in the mid to lower class homes. I'm not a painting contractor, but my clients that are in the upper middle class and higher bracket have homes where trim is painted with oil. I was taught how to paint with oil when I was young. It's only "obsolete" because people have lowered their expectation of quality. It wasn't that many years ago that all trim paint was oil. You go after the jobs where you can spray wall paint on trim. I'll stick to creating the highest quality job I can for a more select group of clients. 

Move over Keith, I'm getting under. Sure wish the mod would get this thread on track!


----------



## honeyshack

Wow this thread got really off topic. Where will it be on page 40?


----------



## waynesgarden

honeyshack said:


> Where will it be on page 40?


Probably the World's Foremost Authority on Everything, unencumbered by the thought process, will be lecturing yet another group of professionals about what they are doing wrong in their professions.

Just a random guess.

Wayne


----------



## D Coates

I've been watching this trainwreck from afar. I'm the product manager/owner at my company and one of my responsibilities is acting as a liason between our sales and engineering departments. I get engineers (normally retired) calling up with ideas all the time. Inherently their ideas are purely theoretical and have no concept of the real world (maufacturablity, performance, safety, marketability, and most importantly profitablity). They don't put their money where their mouth is to prove the concept. But they get defensive (sometimes arogantly) when their concept is not picked up. Now if they do have a working prototype I will take them much more seriously but that rarely happens.

We call these folks "time vampires". They will suck your money, time and resourses as they pursue their half baked idea if you let them. Although this is only a limited waste of time for us, I can't help think this is exactly what is happening here too.


----------



## cg3

D Coates said:


> "time vampires"


We build custom houses. Not to stereotype any group, but when we get an engineer for a client it's pretty much guaranteed that there will be endless discussions on structural strength, fasteners, techniques, etc.


----------



## Acebird

When people buy a home they get an engineers report not a contractors report. Why do you think that is?


----------



## cg3

Acebird said:


> engineers report


Never heard of such a thing. Are you thinking of bridges?


----------



## WLC

Maybe I can give a brief report of my 'incremental' progress on getting a prototype tray 3D printed.

After I downloaded and learned to use "Google Sketchup", I downloaded my file to this place, http://www.shapeways.com/.

It's one of those 3D concept outfits that has it's origins in the Netherlands and has opened up offices in New York (I'm always looking for opportunities for students).

I have been in contact with another 3D printer, and he suggested that I make a mold of the prototype so that I can make the trays that way. He even suggested a method that I can use.

So far, so good.

However, I've had to investigate possible substrates for the trays that didn't include plastics.

I'll try a hydraulic cement (hydoxyapatite/bru****e) that can be made from superphosphate, triple superphosphate, and citric acid/water.

It turns out that when a citric acid solution is added to a 50/50 (molar) mixture of superphosphate/triple super phosphate, you can get a strong and porous material with a low pH (acidic). The citric acid makes it flow like a liquid and extends setting time.

I hope that the trays end up becoming inexpensive, strong, 'breathable' and perhaps may even help to deter pests and pathogens due to the low pH.

Of course, I'm still at step one, it's the end of the season, and I wonder if I can even get the trays to work at all.

But, it's an interesting project.

In case you forgot, my thoughts were that a tray system was the first step towards automation of some aspects of beekeeping.


----------



## mac

Last check you were working on a system for comb honey. Before ya spend any more time and money (whose money is it anyway? Do you work for a state University and is this tax money???) Whatever. I just don’t see a huge demand for comb honey. Maybe ya should have your students do some marketing research first. If ya develop a labor saving system to help the beekeeper to produce a product that has a limited market, the workers in China will love ya but selling the system to a beekeeper who can’t sell the end product is a bad investment. “If you build it they will come.” does not work in all instances. You might be building the next Edsel and not the next killer app. ☺ How many of you beekeepers eat a LOT of comb honey to justify buying a system like this??? Ask your students if they even know what comb honey is then check with the rest of the student population to get their reaction. A feasibility study should be a part of this research project don’t ya think???


----------



## WLC

My expenses are tax deductible.

We're working on DNA/RNA, mostly.

This is one of the side projects that I've assigned to a student who 'likes to build things'.

The cassette, or tray concept, comes from the Hogg system. I'm interested in expanding it to the whole hive.

This isn't about comb honey. It's about studying the feasibility of using trays, 3D printing, and new materials.

It's non-profit. The concept is that beekeepers can '3D print' their own hives from cheap, raw materials like super phosphate. This would all be from free, downloadable designs.

As for China, maybe we'll sell them honey if we can get this up and running.


----------



## Intheswamp

WLC said:


> <snip>
> As for China, maybe we'll sell them honey if we can get this up and running.


Best wishes on the project, WLC, I hope it comes together.

As for selling the Chinese our honey....that would be a good market for bitterweed honey.


----------



## Acebird

If the comb is porous you might need another coating process for two reasons. One to get the bees to accept it and two to protect the comb from moisture. I have never heard of the materials you speak of and I don't know what would happen to the finished product in the presence of water and honey. There might be a reaction. It baffles me why someone would spend so much effort trying to get you to stop doing something different just to learn.

So would these cases be extracted and used again for three or four cycles? Any idea what the weight increase would be as opposed to wax comb?

WLC how can we get a look at that tray design?


----------



## StevenG

Acebird said:


> ... You do have to have a higher skill level with a gun and good equipment. That could be your problem.


:lpf: I just love it! As a child I started learning to paint as my parents redecorated rental property. Brush and roller. Took years to get good at it, and I got to the point where I can cut without masking. When I built 150 supers, decided rolling them was kinda crazy. Bought me an excellent quality spray painter, read the directions, and painted perfectly the first time. I am proof positive any idiot can spray after reading the directions and applying oneself, but it takes more skill to brush and roll. :lpf:
Move over fellas, I'm crawling under the bus with you. I'll bring the snacks. opcorn:
Regards,
Steven


----------



## Acebird

I learned to paint with my right hand when I was 7 years old and then mastered my left hand when I was 8. So what? What do you have to know? How to pick up a brush and then practice. A year! Must be slow learner. I didn't use a roller until 40 years later when I met my present wife. I always used a brush for everything. Again, so what?
When you use a gun you have to know the equipment, you have to know the paint, and you have to know how to maintain the equipment if you are after perfection. 

Anytime the finish requires excellence it is sprayed, think of cars and fine furniture.


----------



## bullitt02797

cg3 said:


> We build custom houses. Not to stereotype any group, but when we get an engineer for a client it's pretty much guaranteed that there will be endless discussions on structural strength, fasteners, techniques, etc.


I am an engineer and I hate this stereotype... Im not saying the stereotype isnt there for a reason. Im just saying I hate it because not all of us are like this. I am 25 and have been working as an EIT (Engineer in Training) for the past 2 years at a commercial refrigeration company. I have found that of the 3 dozen or so engineers that I work with the older ones fit this stereotype almost exclusively. While the engineers closer to my age 25-35ish are very much more opened minded and value others opinions much more. 

Now Im not saying all older engineers are like this... but most in my experience are. 1 person specifically comes to mind when I read some of these baffling comments. He is an engineer in his 50's who got his degree 30 or so years ago. If you have the slightest disagreement with him on anything he will argue until his face is red. In fact, he wont let it go for multiple days. He will spout ridiculous comments about his "knowledge" of everything on the earth and how he knows how to do it best. And even when the findings come back contrary to his "knowledge" he will tell you that the instruments you used were calibrated incorrectly or broken...

In the end you must take it all with a grain of salt.

P.S. cg3 my house was a custom build. While I dont have first hand knowledge of your work, Im sure it is top notch. The custom guys never cease to amaze me with their craftsmanship and attention to detail. I am sorry that most of your dealings with "our kind" have been unpleasant


----------



## D Coates

bullitt02797 said:


> He will spout ridiculous comments about his "knowledge" of everything on the earth and how he knows how to do it best.


I believe we have a winner!


----------



## Charlie B

bullitt02797 said:


> 1 person specifically comes to mind when I read some of these baffling comments. He is an engineer in his 50's who got his degree 30 or so years ago. If you have the slightest disagreement with him on anything he will argue until his face is red. In fact, he wont let it go for multiple days. He will spout ridiculous comments about his "knowledge" of everything on the earth and how he knows how to do it best. And even when the findings come back contrary to his "knowledge" he will tell you that the instruments you used were calibrated incorrectly or broken...


You work with Acebird?


----------



## cg3

bullitt02797 said:


> Now Im not saying all older engineers are like this... but most in my experience are.


Well, even you can see how easy it is to fall into the stereotype. I really don't mean to classify all engineers. Heck, I've even hired some. Sometimes it's even been helpful!:thumbsup:


----------



## StevenG

Charlie B said:


> You work with Acebird?


:lpf: :lpf: :lpf:


----------



## WLC

Acebird:

The trays are very much like the Hogg, except they are trimmed down to a smaller size, and fitted to a medium. However, I don't have the dimensions of a Hogg, nor have I seen a real one.

It's just a stackable tray.

The material that the trays will be caste out of is calcium phosphate. We'll be able to adjust it's density and pH however.

I don't think that a porous material will be a problem for a tray that will be tested inside a wooden medium frame (for acceptance by the bees).


----------



## Acebird

Isn't calcium phosphate an agregate for soaking up oil?


----------



## WLC

It's also a bone replacement material. I've selected it because of its properties, availability, and potential low cost. Besides, it has been successfully used in 3D printing, and, with the addition of citric acid, it forms a castable slurry.

Super phosphate, etc., is common to agriculture. So, it is commonly bought by the ton.

Plastic can get expensive, and quite frankly, doesn't fit well into the requirements of the whole 'paradigm shift' that I'm interested in testing.


----------



## Beeboy01

I wonder how brittle calcium phosphate is once formed into the artificial comb/frame combination you are designing. Unless you plan to redesign comercial honey extractors I would think that the G forces exerted on your comb during extraction would cause blow outs, cracks and all around destruction to your design. The current foundation being used in the industry be it either wax or plastic is flexable and can withstand a lot of G forces and shocks. Of course another question concerning a calcium phosphate comb is how will it stand up to a chain uncapper, there is a lot of vibration during the uncapping process. Here is another aspect of bee keeping you seem to be uneducated in. 
Who's on First??????


----------



## WLC

Well, according to one journal article-

doi: 10.1016/j.biomaterials.2003.09.085

"Reported compressive strengths of bru****e cements are in the range 1-24 Mpa and diametral tensile strengths between 0.7 and 4.5 Mpa."

Of course, the only way to know how well it can stand up to the forces it will encounter is to actually caste the trays and test them.

It's 'bru****e' and not calcium phosphate. Did I mention that it's used as a bone replacement?

But, I can see how spinning a half comb tray would have some advantages over spinning a standard frame.

As for understanding G forces, I remember the days when I used to bring the ultracentrifuge up to well over 100,000 Gs.

(Watch out for the patronizing tude.)


----------



## Beeboy01

What does running a centrifuge up to 100,000 Gs have to do with this discussion? You can't be planning on spinning frames at that speed are you? I'm just asking if your frame/comb design will stand up to the rigors of modern day commercial beekeeping and the equipment that is currently in use. After all bone is really quite brittle, I've busted a few ribs, bones are brittle, so I have some first hand experience in things breaking and just wanted to make sure that you have thought through all the factors in this venture. Just trying to be a help here, not patronizing you. 
Who's on First ??


----------



## WLC

OK Beeboy01:

I won't know until I/we actually start casting trays.

The literature says that I should be able to make a 'bone strong' material.

But, who knows?

(I dunno.)


----------



## mac

Glad your having fun. Keep up the good work. Glad your not using tax money to pay for it. Keep us posted and how about some pics of your work so far.


----------



## Jim 134

Now this will help limiting some manual labor for beekeeprs Just my $0.02

http://youtu.be/xx0ZRGYXLhs



BEE HAPPY Jim 134


----------



## WLC

Looking at the video of the machine putting together frames makes one realize how many different parts, and how many different steps are involved in putting together the frames w/ foundation. This doesn't include everything else that gets assembled. Or, actually beekeeping.

I can understand why it's been said that a single beekeeper can handle up to 1,000 hives with hard work, and some occassional part time help.

One note I'd like to make is that it would seem that if you are going to get a frame making machine, it might be better to have a machine that can form solid/complete frames from the same material (something that the bees will accept quickly).


----------



## Acebird

BeeBoy, live healthy bone should not be brittle. I think if WLC is successful the equipment used on present frames will be replaced along with the frames. 

WlC, how expensive would this industrial grade bone material be?

Jim, any idea what the cost of that equipment is? Looks like somebody is embracing automation in the bee industry. What I am surprised about is why injection molded plastic frames do not come out cheaper than assembled wood. Apparently oil is rising faster than the scarcity of wood and the labor to produce.


----------



## WLC

Super phosphate and triple super phosphate are common fertilizers that are sold by the ton.

That being said, I think that the material cost can be brought to well below a $1 a pound.

However, until 3D printing technology catches up, it is likely that you'll have to pour this stuff into molds to make equipment (or whatever else you might want).


----------



## Acebird

What matters is the curing process as to how you would manufacturer the end product. I know you are hot for 3D printing technology but this is extremely slow and a sizeable investment for such low output. It really shines for making prototypes for injection molding because it reduces or eliminates the cost of hard tooling prototypes and the time it takes to produce such tools. It also can be used again for another prototype. However when you start thinking production it is practically useless. It might be warn out in just a couple of thousand pieces.


----------



## WLC

3D printing isn't a mature technology yet.

But, it would be nice to have a system of beekeeping that can be made by 3D printing when it does mature (if ever).

There's a makerfaire going on at the NY Hall of Science today and tomorrow.

Some of the 3D printing folks will be there as well.

My feeling is this: if you can't 3d print out a complete hive quickly and cheaply, you aren't ready for 'Broadway'.

I'll have to make molds and cast from them meanwhile.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

Can somebody out there on this forum please tell me what 3D printing has to do with me or any other beekeeper saving their backs from permanent disablility?? TED


----------



## Acebird

WLC said:


> My feeling is this: if you can't 3d print out a complete hive quickly and cheaply, you aren't ready for 'Broadway'.


I don't know how it could ever be quick because you are squirting or curing an infinitesimal amount of fluid at a point. Yes, you are moving the tip pretty quickly in 3D space but in order to have the flexibility to create any geometry it has to be done slowly (at a point or at the very most a line). Injection molding has the advantage of pumping a lot fluid quickly. The bigger the mold the bigger the pump. What slows molding down is the cooling or curing time but we are talking seconds or minutes for very big molds not hours or days. Calculate the fluid output of a printer and it might be as long as a week to make one hive, 5 boxes high.

Ted, you really don't want to know. At this point you probably have someone else doing the job and you want them to suffer like you did. Otherwise they must be lazy and not meant for beekeeping.


----------



## WLC

Well, I chose a super phosphate/triple super phosphate based cement because when water is applied to a 50/50 (molar) mix of the powder, it sets to form bru****e instantly.

Your right about the slowness of current 3D printers. They often have but a single 'print' head that makes a single layer, less than .3mm, per pass. It needs improving.

So, making a 'cement' cast of a mold is alot faster!

Ted:

The idea is that you print out complete hives, one day, instead of having to build em piece by piece.

Think 'Jetsons'.


----------



## honeyshack

WLC said:


> Ted:
> 
> The idea is that you print out complete hives, one day, instead of having to build em piece by piece.
> 
> Think 'Jetsons'.



Think COST....doubt it will be a feesible cost for the commercial beekeeper even in the distant future.


----------



## WLC

Agreed Honeyshack. If it costs too much, and takes too long (or doesn't work), then it's pointless.

However, besides some of the other favorable properties of bru****e, I've noticed that super phosphate and triple super phosphate go for $100's per ton.

It might be cheaper, stronger, and longer lasting than wood. But I don't really know until I try casting bru****e hives.

How much does super phosphate and triple super phosphate go for by the ton where you are?


----------



## honeyshack

not a clue


----------



## Oldtimer

Acebird said:


> Ted, you really don't want to know. At this point you probably have someone else doing the job and you want them to suffer like you did. Otherwise they must be lazy and not meant for beekeeping.


 What's to know? By your own admission, building a superphosphate, or whatever, 3d hive is not going to happen commercially ATM, existing equipment to do it is too ponderous and slow.

But Ace, even if it could be done, please explain how making this superphosphate hive would save any of the "suffering" you mention?


----------



## Oldtimer

WLC said:


> How much does super phosphate and triple super phosphate go for by the ton where you are?


In my country it goes for NZ$345.00 a cubic meter, that's around US$286.00

How is it made? This, from a manufacturers web site - QUOTE "Superphosphate is made by reacting finely ground phosphate rock with sulphuric acid to convert the insoluble mineral to a plant available form. Superphosphate contains phosphorus and sulphur in a ratio of 1 to 1.22. When applied at a rate to meet P requirements, the sulphur requirements will also be met in the majority of situations. The colour varies from brown to dark grey with each rock type.​." END QUOTE.

It used to be harvested from a nearby Pacific Island, by the thousands of tons, it was seagull droppings that had over centuries formed into rock in some places hundreds of feet thick.


----------



## hpm08161947

Oldtimer said:


> It used to be harvested from a nearby Pacific Island, by the thousands of tons, it was seagull droppings that had over centuries formed into rock in some places hundreds of feet thick.


That is interesting... a Bird S**T beehive... bet the bees would like that.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

I think in his statement to me, the last part pertains to himself. In this business, a man's return is directly proportional to the amount of work he puts into the operation. We are over the two hundred drum mark and still extracting. You do not do that sitting on your butt being lazy. In the attempt to design a polymer hive, someone forgot to tell you that wood breaths. This action benifits the bees. Plastics, bru****es do not. Walter Kelly's fiberglass beehive basically went the way of the dinosaur. We burnt the last of that equipment last year. You really need to go and spend time with a commercial beek. The Knowledge you are given will not cost you a penny. TED


----------



## hpm08161947

I wonder how this superphosphate compound will respond... react to propoli? And once the hive is all propolised up... how easy will it be to take apart... that is remove the bu****e boxes...


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

Yep ,the phosphate will kill bees and you know the Sulfer content definately will. Hpm, I heard a saying one time that birds of a feather flock together. TED


----------



## WLC

Bird dropping hives? Hey, it might be considered more 'naturalistic' than top bar hives.

Ted:

Bru****e does have a porous structure. However, I don't know how well it breathes. The bru****e I'm interested in has a porosity of 25%.

I'm a little perplexed by the feeling that this is about working less.

My view is that this is about increasing productivity, by orders of magnitude, with the same amount of effort or work.

It's more about being able to manage alot more than the single beekeeper's 1,000 or so hives.

I don't see that happening with the current equipment though.


----------



## WLC

"Yep ,the phosphate will kill bees and you know the Sulfer content definately will. Hpm, I heard a saying one time that birds of a feather flock together. TED "

You're going to have to offer up evidence at this point that bru****e kills bees. That's like saying that bone kills bees.

In other words, PROVE IT!

Maybe you guys are 'the birds of a feather'?


----------



## Beezly

hpm08161947 said:


> That is interesting... a Bird S**T beehive... bet the bees would like that.


:lpf: Same ingredients as some of the replies here.
Ted - Sage wisdom yet again.

And exactly what would an empty hive made of super phosphate weigh? I use the stuff in my garden and a 10 lb bag takes up very little space. I'm sure that i will hear how superphosphate has different weights depending on fume levels inhaled today. Seems that it would probably weigh more than pine thus negating the labor saving issue. Taking a 10 lb bag of the stuff and a 10 lb bag of unmixed drywall compound, it looks very similar in volume, yet when you add water to use the compound it adds significantly to the weight of the final product. Bird poo may be different, but then again there seems to be an abundance available around here. I'd bet some 2 hive beeks could expand the # of hives they have just by building their own forms.


----------



## Oldtimer

hpm08161947 said:


> That is interesting... a Bird S**T beehive... bet the bees would like that.


I'm going to dub it the AceBird Bird S**t beehive. Company motto - "Our products are full of s**t".


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

If you have one say two thousand colonies, you still have one or two thousand abodes or homes those colonies live in. You still have to handle those boxes that many times. Now I do not know what you have envisioned in the scheme of things for producing the crop. Or What you plan on placing on the colonies, but what ever it is you still will handle it three times. We are a palletized operation-four hives to a pallet. In harvest, we take the supers off and set on the harvest pallet-1 move the pallet to the truck by bobcat-2 drive the truck when loaded back to the shop and unload the pallets with bobcat placing them in the shop for extraction-3....The extraction system is the Cowan 120 airram system-takes three people to really efficiently operate it, can be done with two hardworking people. Then there is the weight factor. Supers are heavy enough to work with. Then what you are contemplating might be even heavier-a no go in a commercial operation. Instead of thinking JETSONS, maybe just thinking Langstroth and getting back to the basics is the way to go. Historically, this has always been around a 1200 colony per man business. The constraints derive from the biological system we all handle. Beehives regardless of what they are in, are just plain bulky and then heavy when at harvest time. TED


----------



## WLC

Oldtimer:

Acebird didn't come up with the 'bone hive'. I can't let him take credit for it. 

Beezly: 

it's 3.3 parts dry superphosphate mix to 1 liquid. Actually, it's 50/50 molar, tricalcium phosphate and monocalcium phosphate monohydrate, and not really fertilizer.

But, I am trying to explain it to beekeepers and the like.

So, I tried to make it simple for them to understand.

Heh, heh.

PS-I bet Ted and hpm can't prove that bru****e kills bees.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

Well, phosphates are frowned upon release into the environment-causes really strange reactions to aquatic wildlife. And as for as the sulfer goes-well we beeks back in the olden days used to kill skeps of bees by the thousands in order to harvest the honey and beeswax using good old sulfer and a smoker. And as for the bones in my body, they are mostly composed of calcium-unless the phosphoric acid content in coca colas has dissolved out the calcium. Something that phospherous materials have tendency to do. NOPE, I will stick to good old fashion wood. Bull s**t was used to coat the skeps of old and fell out of favor. So why do I want to place my bees in a box derived from such a material when I am producing a food product for sale??? Think of the stigma that will cause among consumers. I got to go to dinner, you all have fun. TED


----------



## Oldtimer

WLC said:


> Oldtimer:
> 
> Acebird didn't come up with the 'bone hive'. I can't let him take credit for it.


Yes I did realise that, just couldn't resist taking the mickey because he was the one making the smart remarks.

To be honest, I don't quiet see what your hive will acheive that is better than we have now. However, it should be possible to make one, at least, even just a one box one to experiment on. Perhaps you could do that, it would be an interesting experiment, we'll never know for sure till it's been tried.

One thing about timber though, it's very durable and can take knocks. It's also bees traditional house material, they have always lived in wood and are adapted to it.

But can you rent / beg / borrow a 3d machine and give this a shot?


----------



## honeyshack

Oldtimer said:


> One thing about timber though, it's very durable and can take knocks. It's also bees traditional house material, they have always lived in wood and are adapted to it.


Wood also works well in a cold enviroment. Any kind of poly/phosophate/man made whatchamacallit will get brittle over time, and in my climate, a very short time. Wood hives have a long life span in all of our climates.


----------



## WLC

Have a good dinner Ted.

I don't think that making trays (or a hive) out of bru****e is such a big deal.

I'm curious to see if bees accept bru****e trays.

That's what I/we want to do for starters.

I don't know if it will work.

As for acces to 3D printers. I already have the prototype '3D printed' tray on order. It should get here by the end of the month (yes, that's quite a wait).

The triple and regular super phosphate are on their way. And, now, I get to order up some of that silcone material that they make molds out of.

It looks like it's gonna run $100 a gallon. Maybe I can make a bunch of molds?

It's a project guys. Like any other.

Too bad we won't get to try the bru****e trays out on bees until next spring.


----------



## hpm08161947

honeyshack said:


> Wood also works well in a cold enviroment. Any kind of poly/phosophate/man made whatchamacallit will get brittle over time, and in my climate, a very short time. Wood hives have a long life span in all of our climates.


I seem to remember something about Allen Dick experimenting with Styrofoam hives... up in Manitoba.. I believe. Wonder how that turned out?


----------



## Oldtimer

condensation was a problem


----------



## Acebird

Oldtimer said:


> But Ace, even if it could be done, please explain how making this superphosphate hive would save any of the "suffering" you mention?


I don't know for sure. It is not my idea but if I follow WLC's logic it would produce more precise hive parts which would make it easier to automate harvesting honey, maybe even help for inspections. I don't know how far into the Jetsons you want to go with the concept. 

A single sided comb of uniform size (especially square) would have advantages for harvesting honey. That I am sure of. So some of what WLC has proposed could be useful in the near future.

For me, what I would propose is a crush and strain method of harvest using manmade comb of beeswax with present day hive dimensions. It would be an easier sell to the industry. I could fore see a hinged plastic frame similar to what is used for cut out comb as the receiver of the manmade comb. This basically eliminates the honey house. Honey could be sold in the raw state in barrels and shipped to where ever for packaging. Nobody has to come in contact with the honey so the chances of contamination is far less then the present day honey house. Each beekeeper does not need all the redundant equipment that only gets used a fraction of the time in a year. If all the raw honey was going to a central process plant that plant could be running all year long not just a few month or weeks during harvest time. JIT, you only need to process what you sell so you cut down on the number of finished goods. Huge inventory savings.

Absolutely zero problems with wax moth storing frames.

Now here is another thing you beekeepers might not like. If all the raw honey is in barrels labeled from where it came it could be spot checked for any disease you choose. No need to individually inspect every hive in the country. If you have something going astray in your apiary it will show up in the barrel. Then the powers to be can reject your honey and send you a report to deal with the problem. Your next batch will be closely checked out for approval to see if you corrected the problem.


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## Acebird

honeyshack said:


> Wood hives have a long life span in all of our climates.


You are joking right? One of the major pollutants is plastic. It will take thousands of years to break down all the plastic garbage we throw away every day even if it is getting pounded by the sea. How long does a wood hive last 10 -15 years unprotected if that. Do you think the plastic pipes in people's homes will get brittle and break before they are dead and gone?


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## honeyshack

considering some of my boxes are over 50 years old and still very useable, and some of my comb which has come from other beekeepers is probably over 20....what color did you say your sky is?

Second...that crush and strain....so much more work for me and the bees.
Lets just start for the bees....rebuilding wax every year. Hello....7 pounds of honey consumed for every pound of wax...cuts into honey production
having to re produce wax each year will also cut into brood production...cause they need to make the wax again.

Then the beekeeper...lost honey cause well, some still stays in all those cappings....oh wait, let us buy more equipment to get the honey out of the wax.

Crush and strain is not a cost saving method. Its more work, harder on the back, hurts production, by the way hurt production hurts the bottom line. 

You really need to come and work for me for a while. And work with Ted and Sqkcrk, and Oldtimer, and Keith, and several others...then think out loud


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## honeyshack

Acebird said:


> I
> Now here is another thing you beekeepers might not like. If all the raw honey is in barrels labeled from where it came it could be spot checked for any disease you choose. No need to individually inspect every hive in the country. If you have something going astray in your apiary it will show up in the barrel. Then the powers to be can reject your honey and send you a report to deal with the problem. Your next batch will be closely checked out for approval to see if you corrected the problem.



How do you propose getting the packers to accept dirty honey? They like it clean. So does CFIA, USDA, FDA, and any other border and food regulation bodies. Border security...who by the way have turned back drums because of wax...

On another note, packers do not like to deal with wax. They then need to render it or destroy it....money then not in the beekeepers pocket...again hard on the bottom line


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## Ted Kretschmann

Bru****e, named after famous Yale minerologist George Jarvis Brush. Forerunner to the mineral Apatite-which is found in igneous/metamorphic rocks. Bru****e is 23% calcium/18% phospherous/3% hydrogen and 55% oxygen......Bru****e can form a form of kidney stones.......It is found in nature due to a reaction with the mineral Calcite and Clay. The reactive agent is.....GAUNO-----BAT DUNG and there is the open air bird derived version.......So we have gone BATTY and Beekeeping has gone to the Birds........I will stick to wood, a least all I will attract are termites and not Blow flies.......WLC, since you want to be a sculpter and work in stone to build a better beehive, have you not considered the mineral Magnesite. At least it is not manure based. TED


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## Daniel Y

I have just been reading a book by Doolittle. I came across this comment that is appropriate to this conversation.
"It seems to me that we can always consider it safe to go according to the teachings learned by a close observation of our "pets," and unsafe to go contrary to the rules and laws which govern them."

In context he is arguing that Queens produced by a hive that is under no pressure to do so, will produce queens at optimal times and result in optimal queens. The far reaching issue is. What stresses are the interference of man inflicting on our colonies? What in total are the results of this stress?

concern alternative materials for hives in general, guided by this focus on how bees function without intervention of man. what materials have you know bees to make a hive in other than wood? If you where able to observe the success of that hive would you rate it poor fair or good.

As for the insulting nature I see displayed int his thread. And this is not the only example of it of it. I can only say I consider the nature of the persons that it comes from. Not so much consider the source as what does it tell me about the source. I will only say it is not flattering to any degree.

It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt. 
if that one does not fit then maybe this one does. Don't wrestle with pigs, you both get muddy and the pig enjoys it. Either way this group is the one coming away with egg on it's face and a reason for lost respect.

For those that have shared a civil tongue, my apologies for the generalization.

now I realize that this is insulting in itself but the effect is very real from my perspective. You all look like a bunch of 6th grade drop outs that are trying to look educated. Sorry that is sounds harsh but it is really true. I have to laugh as I read this thread. I keep hearing children chiming. "My dogs better than your dog" and "Oh Yeah and your mama to"! did not , did to , did not. most of what i have read here will fit right into that conversation.


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## WLC

"Do you think the plastic pipes in people's homes will get brittle and break before they are dead and gone?"

The same kind of logic can apply to hive bodies made of bru****e, a bone replacement material, vs wood.

There are plenty of examples of bones being found in old graves while the wooden coffins are long gone.

Wood rots rather quickly in some climates. I don't think that bru****e will rot.

I really don't know how well it will weather though. 

One of the properties of bru****e that I found to be useful was that it can have a pH range of from 4 all the way down to about 1.5. You can't say that for wood.

I like the idea that I can adjust the pH of the substrate in the acidic range of the pH scale because that can go a long way towards fighting off certain pests and pathogens.

Pardon me if I think like a biologist, but if I'm going to try out a material different from wood or plastic, it might as well have as many desirable properties as I can cram in.

Bru****e fits the bill, at least on paper.


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## WLC

Ted:

I thought that superphosphate was made from phosphate bearing minerals? The U.S. is the major exporter of phosphate fertilizers which are made, if I'm correct, in the southern U.S. .

Are you saying that there's alot of guano down there? 

I'm not sure why you're upset about masonary or ceramic based hives though.


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## Ted Kretschmann

WLC, Build me FOUR Deep boxes made from the mineral...I will put bees in them and run them through the paces of commercial beekeeping. I need four to place on a commercial type pallet that we use. Then you can see if they hold up to commercial practices, what the bees might do to the box and the weather.....While I have found all this attempt to build a better mouse trap amusing with the material chosen, it seems that only way to settle this is what I have suggested above. TED


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## Ted Kretschmann

YEP we are full of the stuff, me included LOL..Florida being were most of it has been mined in the past....Build them and let us commercials on the forum test them. They may be too heavy, too fragile, the Bru****e hives may be too hot in this type of climate. Too many unknown variables untill you build the protos. Possible the bees may not adapt to them. TED


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## WLC

That's the spirit Ted.

If I can get this stuff to cast in a mold at all, I'll have students caste some deeps and deep frames from the stuff as well.


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## btmurph

At the risk of getting myself involved here now... what about good old fashioned concrete instead of bru****e? You could use some sort of lightweight aggregate (think styrafoam beads or something) and it's pretty darned cheap!

I just couldn't resist, and I'm only half serious here people.


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## WLC

Concrete has a basic pH of around 11 or 12.

Bees, honey, etc., tend to have a more acidic pH. Somewhere around 3-6.

The main reason why I switched to bru****e is because I couldn't make plastic trays (which I felt would be necessary for automation) cheaply or easily. My flowchart went like this: Hogg half comb cassettes, to half comb trays for automation, to 3D printing, to bru****e, to bru****e cast hive components.

So, I went with a cement like material that I felt that I could cast in a mold, bru****e, that had some desirable properties as well.

I have no idea if it's even doable at this point.

Do I honestly think that this can replace wooden Langs? Not really.

But, it makes for a good project that touches on alot of interesting topics.


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## Acebird

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Build them and let us commercials on the forum test them.


Who in their right mind would send prototypes to a person who is 100% against the idea? If you are going to take on partners for a project the first thing you do is eliminate the negativity.


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## Acebird

WLC said:


> The main reason why I switched to bru****e is because I couldn't make plastic trays .


If your method for prototyping is silicone molds you could have made the first parts out of an epoxy and still can. Epoxies can be used for workable parts and were quite common before the days of 3D printing. However epoxies are expensive and I doubt if you can adjust the PH. The advantage is you can mold them and work out the dynamics of assembly. All materials have their plusses and minuses. Plastic by its nature will flex so it makes it easier to have snap fits. I am thinking bone material will not give you this advantage but I don't know.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Because of the negativity, I and the other commercials will be more objective, more apt to spot the flaws in the product and give a more honest assessment of what it would take to fix the product or junk the project. WE would also put the product through its paces. If it survives us-THEN it has a place on the market as a hive alternative. This is something that someone that has just one hive of bees can not do. Besides it is a product that is supposed to allow people to keep more than a 1000 hives of bees, right. Something you have no clue about to start with-commercial beekeeping. TED


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## WLC

Acebird:

If the 'Bone Hive' goes squish when other pollination pallets are stacked on top, then it's no good to anyone.

Ted has a point: if it can't pass muster in the field, it isn't a good idea.

Besides, Alabama is a demanding environment to keep hives and a good place to test out new ones because it also has an extended beekeeping season in comparison to NY.


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## Acebird

honeyshack said:


> How do you propose getting the packers to accept dirty honey? They like it clean. So does CFIA, USDA, FDA, and any other border and food regulation bodies. Border security...who by the way have turned back drums because of wax...


This is what is know as "stuck in a rut".

I don't know what the CFIA is but the USDA and the FDA are concerned about the quality of the end product going to the consumer.

The beekeeper raises bees and harvest raw honey in a much faster fashion then dragging frames of honey around, extracting, and doing something with the frames. He gets paid for the honey and wax that he sends out to the processing plant.
The processing plant, not the beekeeper, test the incoming and validates the suppliers (beekeepers) filters out the honey, renders the wax, may or may not make the comb. The plant could package the honey or ship off the honey to an independent packer.

The USDA and the FDA regulate the processing plants and the packers and the manufacturers of the manmade comb.

The bees are not going to make all the comb. The beekeeper is going to buy back the comb and install it in reusable frames. He is good to go with a full set of drawn comb. He can manage his apiary in such a way to control how much wax the bees make for him. All of the comb he gets is sterilized and tested for chemical content.

The processing plant will be required to direct high levels of chemicals in the wax to be used for candles and such while the low levels go to comb.

This is what is know as quality with a system of checks and balances.

It has to be initiated from the top down for the benefit of the bee keeping industry. Isn't there a bee association that works for the betterment of the industry as a whole?


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## Acebird

WLC said:


> Acebird:
> 
> If the 'Bone Hive' goes squish when other pollination pallets are stacked on top, then it's no good to anyone.
> 
> Ted has a point: if it can't pass muster in the field, it isn't a good idea.


You have to partner with someone that is willing to change in the hopes of improving his operation. Ted doesn't believe his operation can be improved so you are dead in the water.

You can test the hive "shake rattle and roll" without ever putting it in a bee yard. With medical products you don't get the opportunity to send your products to the customer until you have proven the package will survive "shake rattle and roll". The issue with the bee industry is there are no standards to strive for. Your hive may not survive Ted's operation but could very easily survive someone else's. If someone else sees merit is what you are doing and it indeed proves profitable then Ted will be forced to accept or wither away in time.

My prediction is if you send your hives to Ted it would be like putting them in a trash compactor in NY.


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## WLC

Acebird:

I could look at a hive, at all of the frames, and bees etc., for hours at a time, and I still wouldn't be able to spot something that a commercial beekeeper would see at first glance.

I don't have a bad relationship with Ted, or hpm, or the other commercial types.

If I did send them 'bone hives', I'd expect them to give em the old 'Samsonite' test (remember that one?).

From my point of view, they're the one's who will look at it objectively, dispassionately, and sceptically.

This isn't something that you'd want a 'Yes-man' to put through its paces.

Nevertheless, I haven't received my superphosphates, let alone mixed them together to make a cement.

I'm at step one, and I can be every bit as objective as I need to be.

I have yet to make a mold for my first tray prototype, let alone cast it.

As of right now, all I have to show of any consequence are bills.

It's still just a concept. 

Imagine that.


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## Oldtimer

Acebird said:


> My prediction is if you send your hives to Ted it would be like putting them in a trash compactor in NY.


Actually, Ted would recieve the hive parts with interest, and would give them fair trial. 

I suspect he would also welcome WLC to visit and see his product in use, and I am sure he would not trash them at the end, he would return them to WLC, maybe even with bees in.

Heck, he might even let you have a look Ace.


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> My prediction is if you send your hives to Ted it would be like putting them in a trash compactor in NY.


ACEBIRD: You really do not know Ted K, at all. I do not know him personally either, but from what I hear, he would be a excellent evaluator. Biased would hardly be words I would use to describe his outlook. I suspect if he saw even a glimmer of hope in the bu****e hive, that he would be quick to point it out.

WLC has a good offer here... and I see he is quick to recognize it. I know most of us here are curious about the results.


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## WLC

What I find amusing is, that after all is said and done, the only thing that will come of this is not a replacement for the Lang, but rather a way to reduce labor by casting 'Bone Langs'.

Am I the only one to see the Irony?


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## Acebird

WLC said:


> Acebird:
> 
> I could look at a hive, at all of the frames, and bees etc., for hours at a time, and I still wouldn't be able to spot something that a commercial beekeeper would see at first glance.


I don't disagree with that statement at all. I think you should hook up with a commercial beekeeper. And honestly I do hope that I am 100% wrong about Ted but my gut tells me otherwise.

Good luck on your project.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Why would I be any different from any other commercial beekeeper??? WE move bees for pollenation on pallets, produce bees for sale and many tons of honey. If the product can not survive in a commercial setup, it has no use on the beekeeping market. I hope one day Ace you can pay me a visit and learn. In other words put you statements where you mouth is. TED


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## Acebird

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Why would I be any different from any other commercial beekeeper???


Look back through 45 pages plus other threads where you have claimed no idea different than what you are presently doing has merit. You have literally acknowledge that you would not change anything. It is pretty hard to turn that around.

Why would I go all the way to Alabama when there are operation right in my back yard?


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## Oldtimer

Acebird said:


> Look back through 45 pages plus other threads where you have claimed no idea different than what you are presently doing has merit?


Hmmm.... Something about pots and kettles comes to mind?


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## WLC

Well, we seem to get back to the Lang being a 160 year old design.

From my perspective, there are some relatively recent problems that require alot more effort on the part of beekeepers using wooden Langs. The pests being the worst of the bunch.

Why go to the deep south to test something out?

SHB for starters. Termites. Wood rot. Possibly AHB. (I'd say Hogzilla, but I think that was from Georgia.)

Different regions face different issues, but I think that the south bears the brunt of it.


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> Why go to the deep south to test something out?
> 
> SHB for starters. )
> 
> Different regions face different issues, but I think that the south bears the brunt of it.


If the Bu****e hive somehow repels SHB.... you may have saved Beekeeping in the south....


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## WLC

That's one reason I didn't choose plastic. I couldn't control its pH.

With bru****e, I have a chance to control the pH range from about 4 down to about 1.5 .

It's a long shot, but it's worth the effort.


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## Acebird

WLC said:


> Why go to the deep south to test something out?


Here again for your hive it makes sense. For me to see a commercial operation that would benefit me as a hobbyist I think my supplier Bill can give me that perspective.


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## jim lyon

Please disperse theres nothing to see here. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSjK2Oqrgic
Sorry folks I just couldnt help myself any longer.


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## Charlie B

Acebird said:


> Why would I go all the way to Alabama when there are operation right in my back yard?


Do you mean your one hive operation in your backyard? :lpf:


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## Ted Kretschmann

:lpf: TED


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## Tom G. Laury

Please disperse!


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## Acebird

There are at least three commercial operations in my area. I don't know if Mark considers himself commercial or side liner but I am sure he has nothing to hide from me and that would give me a comparisons of northern and southern operations because he moves.

I wonder how that plays in front of the general public when so called bee professionals act like children on this forum?


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## Oldtimer

I guess even beekeepers can have some fun. They can be serious on the sensible threads though.

I see another thread on ideas for limiting mental labor for beeks. Best way is to do it. Saves wasting energy on something you will never make happen.


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## Acebird

Limiting manual labor is not sensible for some beeks, just throw on your suit and dig right in. Bee a man...


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## Oldtimer

No you missed it. Limiting labor is what commercial beekeeping is all about. That is why they are NOT using the ideas proposed on the first page of this thread, which would be a time (and money) wasting fiasco.

The too much thinking and not enough doing i mentioned, is why the only person who thinks the idea would work (you), will never try the idea either. It would be kinda fun to watch you trying though, but I know you never will, you would find too many obstacles to "think" about along the way, to actually get the job done.

WLC's idea, has maybe some small chance to work. Although I doubt it would save either time, or money, or even be very bee friendly. But it needs to be seen working to know for sure, and I have a little more respect when the guy is going to actually get off his butt and actually DO it. Do I think it will work? Probably not. But at least he has been a bit more honest in his discussion of it, and not resorted to lamblasting anyone who expresses an alternate opinion on it.

Thinking, without doing, actually eliminates the need for a properly thought out plan. It is not nessecary to put the needed level of thought into an idea, because it's not going to be done anyway.

In reality, the doers in this thread, are also the thinkers, or at least, the thinkers who can think something through enough for it to work.


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> Limiting manual labor is not sensible for some beeks,


Wow... Acebird... you are dead wrong about this one. 

This morning we took a 2 hour round trip to stock our totes up with HFCS. The entire time all we talked about were hypothetical ways to make delivery of the HFCS more efficient and less labor intensive. Now that I think about it..... trying to figure some way to do less labor while getting more work done is about all we ever talk about.


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## Nabber86

hpm08161947 said:


> Wow... Acebird... you are dead wrong about this one.
> 
> This morning we took a 2 hour round trip to stock our totes up with HFCS. The entire time all we talked about were hypothetical ways to make delivery of the HFCS more efficient and less labor intensive. Now that I think about it..... trying to figure some way to do less labor while getting more work done is about all we ever talk about.


That's easy. Get Ace to design a 4-inch cross-country pipeline (with trace heat and lift stations) from the HFCS supplier to your bee operation. No more 2-hour round trips to stock your totes. 

Construction will only cost you 2.5 million dollars, plus Ace's 10 percent design fees ($250,000). Throw in another 5 million for easements and property acquisition. For budgeting purposes (including a 20% contingency), figure a total project cost of about $9.5 million.....

Just think of all the labor it would save.


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## WLC

Well, I do know 'the drill' when it comes to finding new ways to solve problems (of interest).

It takes effort, time, money, and some degree of expertise.

While making cement, or casting it, isn't my area of expertise, I can certainly follow the experts and apply my own background knowledge to working the problem.

While the odds of success, in the short term, are realistically quite low, I can't resist the chance to apply a biomaterial (a bone replacement material) to a problem where I should, by all current thinking, apply plastics.

I'm still going for the trays, but it's hard to resist the chance to also cast traditional hive components since it's just a matter of using the same materials and techniques on a larger scale.

I think that pest control is a major contributor to the amount of labor that's being spent on beekeeping.

If I can test a both tray system for the purposes of automation, as well as an acidic biomaterial for pest control, at the same time, then why not?


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## Acebird

Oldtimer said:


> No you missed it. Limiting labor is what commercial beekeeping is all about. That is why they are NOT using the ideas proposed on the first page of this thread, which would be a time (and money) wasting fiasco.


I had to go back to the first page to revisit what was discussed because a lot of ideas have been discussed in 46 pages.
On the first page I suggested having a mobile extractor, bringing it to each bee yard. An idea unknown to me that has already been done before. So that is not the craziest idea if it has already been done before. In this case I was thinking more of a side liner operation not commercial. I was thinking along the lines that it could be shared or rented extending its use and it would decrease labor by not having to truck honey and equipment great distances. For me with two hives it would be silly now wouldn't it?

I think the lambasting was more directed at me and for a shorter time at WLC for having the audacity to express any new idea about beekeeping with out being "properly" initiated into the club. He, WLC, is a far more educated person with credentials then myself so there is only so much mud you could sling at him before he put you in your place. It is a shame he had to do that to get a little respect. Keep in mind that most of the new people on this forum who might wish to field their ideas will not have his, WLC's, credentials. And as a result of the lambasting, will not. That is like cancer to a open forum where the intention is to share and discuss ideas.


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## WLC

Acebird:

I have bees, but I'm not a beekeeper. While bees may be the subject, it's the 'medium' that's my message. Think modern art vs classical art to get a feel for what I'm about.

As for mobile extracting, that's what a tray system allows for. That's part of what I like about it.


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## frazzledfozzle

Acebird joined March 2011 so a forum member for a round 6 months 1512 posts

Oldtimer joined July 2010 forum member for around 14 months 1548 posts 

I wonder which one of these two has been the most helpful with their 1500+ posts and which one has been a little less informative 

I gave up on one of the them a long time ago


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## Gypsi

How can I unsubscribe from this thread? I already rated it as "terrible".


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## Oldtimer

Acebird said:


> On the first page I suggested having a mobile extractor, bringing it to each bee yard. An idea unknown to me that has already been done before. So that is not the craziest idea if it has already been done before.


 Yes, a mobile extracting plant can work, and as others have enlightened you to, has already been done. It's just not done much any more because most commercial beekeepers have moved to the lower labor, lower cost, option, of a central extraction plant.

However, your word "craziest idea", was not what I said about the mobile extracting plant. Some of the other ideas that went along with it, such as moving hives, bees and all, to the extracting plant, would be more worthy contenders for the "craziest idea" prize.


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