# Frame jig for scratch building ....



## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

now to be the guy who comments his own post before anyone else does....i would like Michael Bush's insight in the sizing for small cell brood production if possible. since i will most likely be scratch building all my frames from here on out. 

Michael, i have read your site about how to cut or plane down dadant style frames to accomplish this, but im a little bit confused. instead of planing my cut 2 x 4 (sides blank before ripping them into multiple sides) down to 1 3/8,should i instead plane the blanks down to 1 1/4 and rip them out ? or am i getting it all wrong. maybe you could just go over the dimensions of the individual pieces before assembly. that would be awesome. im sure with minimal work i can get it dialed in correctly for small cell frames. i was thinking of also moving the taper up on the sides so that instead of where the taper starts towards the bottom of the side i could start the taper maybe a 1/2" higher ? any thoughts on what you would design ? thinner top bars/bottom bars ?


----------



## gunter62 (Feb 13, 2011)

But if I can bust out 100 un assembled frames an hour.....which I'm sure I can......I'll be golden.

Took me 5 hours to"bust out 100". If you can do it in an hour, you are golden!


----------



## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

I didn't keep track of time on mine, but the last hundred I did was probably 4-5 hours. I use nothing but a table saw, and in this case i didn't use a dado stet at any point. Probably not the way to go for commercial guys, but I've got no plans to have more than a dozen hives and I like making things. I'm impressed with the appearance of those end bars, especially if you're banging them out that fast!


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I make up frame blanks, then have a custom holder that holds 50 blank endbars at a time in a clamp setup. I then run the entire 50 blanks through the table saw and cut the top bar and bottom bar slots. This dramatically speeds up time to complete for end bars.


----------



## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

1. Might want to plane the 2X? lumber down to 1 3/8 or 1 1/4 before you cut the pieces to side bar length.

2. It is easier for me to cut the top and bottom slots for the top bar and bottom bar in the 2X? blocks before I cut them into the side bars. that way you don't have to make a jig to hold the side bars in place and they can't get out of line with each other.


----------



## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

1. Might want to plane the 2X? lumber down to 1 3/8 or 1 1/4 before you cut the pieces to side bar length.

2. It is easier for me to cut the top and bottom slots for the top bar and bottom bar in the 2X? blocks before I cut them into the side bars. that way you don't have to make a jig to hold the side bars in place and they can't get out of line with each other.


----------



## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Plane down the stock before cutting to length, it's easier and gives you more bars the same width. I prefer 2x6 for end bars, more bars per piece.

I cut dados using an Oshlun style dado set with two chipper teeth per spacer, my saw bogs down with six teeth on the chippers. I hate smoke....

If you have a jointer, it's easy to cut the end bars down with it. I do them after they are cut right now, but may try doing the whole 2x6 block next time. If you don't have a jointer, use the router table to cut them. You can just leave them full width all the way, but the bees glue them together pretty badly if you do.

Peter


----------



## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

All awesome points....thanks guys. I did decide to use the router for top and bottom bar channels. Going with 3/4 on top and 1/2 on bottom. I must have misspoke, but yes I do plane the blocks/blanks down after cutting to length and before ripping to multiple side pieces. 

As far as shaping the downgrade on multiple pieces rathe than one at a time using a clamp set up. I am thinking of that as well. I need to find a really tall/long 1/2 router bit to make it possible.


----------



## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

tommysnare said:


> As far as shaping the downgrade on multiple pieces rathe than one at a time using a clamp set up. I am thinking of that as well. I need to find a really tall/long 1/2 router bit to make it possible.


As was mentioned earlier, a jointer works really well for that.


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I'm going to say, more like 5-hours for me, too. But that's just the time it takes to cut out all the parts, it still takes even more time to assemble them, and to wire them. I've only been making, so far, foundationless frames, with Top Bars having a built-in profile for comb guide. And my End Bars (I don't know about all this talk of "side bars"). Presently I use a table saw to cut blanks to length, Top Bars to 19", Bottom Bars to 17" (since I prefer my Bottom Bars to be glued and stapled through the solid bottoms of my End Bars). And, End Bars to 6-1/4" or 9-1/8" depending. I use a band saw to resaw blanks to the width I prefer them (often trimming a little from each side, so both sides, when complete, have a similar finished surface). I've made almost all of my End Bars, 1-1/4" wide, with Top Bars 7/8" wide and Bottom Bars, simply cut 3/8" thick, or 7/16" thich, cut from the edge of one by lumber (nominally 3/4" thick), making them 17" long, 3/4" wide, and 3/8" or 7/16" thick. I have a table saw with a stacked dado set (3/4" wide). I set the fence on the dado saw, so once I've fed the End Bar blanks through the dado, twice, with each side against the fence and the final product being a dado cut of 7/8" wide and centered in the top of the End Bar blanks. Then I separate the End Bars from the blanks by resawing them in the band saw. I cut Top Bars by cutting strips of two by lumber, precut to length, resawing them with the band saw 7/8" wide. Then I make a dado cut on four ends of the Top Bar blanks (which creates the Top Bar lugs in the final product), run the opposite 7/8" edges through the router table to create the comb guide edge. Then back to the band saw to resaw the Top Bars, separating them (one blank makes two Top Bars). When assembling them, I put a drop of glue on the ends of the Bottom Bars, then hold them against the inside bottom edges of the End Bars and staple through the End Bars and into the Bottom Bars. When the End Bars are still blanks I prefer to drill the holes for the wires on my drill press. Two holes for 6-1/4", and three for 9-1/8". Four wires always seemed, to me, overkill on deep frames - the top and bottom wires were always too close to the Top Bar and Bottom Bars to really be very helpful or supportive.




The above image shows a comb guide profile also cut into the Bottom Bar. I've tried this to see if it helps to get the comb attached here, too. I'm still not sure if it helps, so I'm continuing to produce some frames this way, until I can form a consensus.


----------



## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

almost there. finishing tweeks tomorrow. i have all stops and jigs made. i might post a video series on youtube if it works out as well as its looking  

it is a long process but, im setting everything up soo u can do hundreds of frames at a time in a step by step process. thinking when u need frames u spend a couple hours doing hundreds of frames in a few hours to store away un assembled.


----------



## HIVE+ (Jan 4, 2012)

I see I'm getting here when all the work is finished. I found plans for a jig to narrow the bottoms of the endbars in FineWoodworking #39, 1983. I can't post a picture with a Kindle, so I'll do my best to describe it clearly.
Looks like they planed two 1x4's (8" L) to the thickness of the endbars and attached them parallel to a base (1/2" MDF would be good) leaving a 2" gap. The base is long enough to allow attachment of a stop block across the end. Before attaching the right side a large semicircle for chip clearance is cut, centered at 6" from the stop and the short end has 5/32" ripped, end to semicircle. This acts much like a jointer table, so that when you insert the blank past the router bit, it is supported by the outfeed side. After attaching the right side a full hole is cut in the base corresponding to the hole in the fence.
In the extra space between the sides they used a wood-sliver spring (wooden strip attached to left side and flexed over with 2 nails offset to form a shallow s-curve against the blank) to force the piece against the fence just beyond the cutter. Finally a top is added and the jig is ready to clamp to the router table.
A picture is worth a thousand words. I don't know how they aligned the jig with the bit.
The jig could be made longer and a sliding stop could cut all depths of endbars.


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I always detested the commercial End Bars where they are full width at the top and narrow towards their base. Perhaps there was some rationale for them being constructed this way, but when I replace frames, I like to slide them back in, with the End Bars pressed against each other, and when I slide them in my preferred manner the narrowed ones act like a scissors, pinching, slicing, and crushing bees as they are trapped by the narrow end as it slides down against the adjacent End Bar, especially where the wide part forms a wedge where it narrows. With End Bars having parallel sides, as I replace a frame by sliding it in against its neighbor, the blunt end of the frame, simply pushes any bee, out of the way, without catching it in a scissors-like action.

So, needless to say, I have not endeavored to imitate that feature of commercial frames. I like that PF-120 frames have very little of this narrowing - though the larger PF-100's seem to make up for what the shorter frames lack.

- - - - -
It just occurred to me, that the parallel-sided End Bars may more closely imitate how feral colonies arrange their combs. With the combs attached at the sides and top, predominantly. Though our "frames" create an opening at the top, between each comb and its neighbor, and the end combs and the hive walls. So, most air will move up or down between the combs, and be restricted in moving across the combs in a horizontal direction, though with a bee space outside the End Bars, bees and air will be able to travel there (where that might not be possible in a feral hive). But it will change the nest ventilation and bee movement dynamics.


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I just realized I hadn't directly addressed the issue, as described by the title of this thread:

As for a "jig" to produce frame components, I have a few different setup pieces, some of them are simply components that are already finished, which I use to more quickly set my dado blade for those cuts I make on the dado, and other ones I use to set the band saw, for cuts I make on that tool. Right now, I leave my router table set up for cutting the comb-guide profile in the Top Bars, so that's always ready to go. And I have a table saw, I only use for cutting stock to length, from different width of two by lumber, whichever I have been able to find suitable boards of, on that day, at the lumber yard. I believe that it would be advantageous for me to create sleds (jigs) designed to ride in both miter slots of the table saw, and use them to cut various rough blanks, to length. This is always my first step in creating any frame components. However, I am awaiting a replacement table top for my RAS (radial arm saw). Once I have it functional again, there are several, easy ways, for me to set it so I can cut stock to length, so that is what I plan to do. I will probably retire the plain, table saw from its current duties, and then be safer and make more accurate cuts, more quickly and easily with the RAS.

So, since I use four different power tools to create my frame components, it is more expedient to keep jigs (pieces of wood cut to the different widths, and with the essential dado cuts, necessary to create frame components). These facilitate setting and resetting the tools to perform the series of cuts necessary to create the various components. Besides these "jigs", I find the most important "tool" to be my plan of the sequence of cuts I use to create the various components, and to decide before I begin, how many of each component I will need, for the quantity of frames I need and plan to create. Also, acquiring the appropriate amount of raw lumber, necessary to create the desired frame components and to ensure it is suitable to the purpose. This way I should only need to make only one of each setting change, on the tools that will be requiring changes for the various steps in the creation of the frame components - for a single run/batch of frames.

In other words plan the most efficient way to create the various components, so the different power tool settings for each component only have to be made, once for each batch being created. For me the first step, is to decide how many frames I will be creating in the next batch I am planning. And the second step is to make sure I have all the lumber necessary to create that batch. The third step would be to cut all the lumber to the lengths needed for the creation of blanks. It gets slightly more complicated in subsequent steps, but I think you see where I'm going with this. 

My simplest blank is for Bottom Bars. I cut one by (3/4" thick boards to seventeen inches long), then I simply cut them from that stock in the thickness I want those Bottom Bars to be, on the band saw, creating the largest number of components, with the least amount of waste (sawdust), possible.

Since I make my Top Bars, 7/8" wide, I cut two by in 7/8" wide strips, from two by material that has already been cut to 19" length. then I make four dado cuts, one on each end of this Top Bar blank, then the comb-guide profile cut, one on each side, then I separate the two Top Bars, creating one from each side of the original two by material (approximately 11/16" thick after the band saw cut, with a comb-guide profile on one side and ears/lugs on each end to later support the frames on the supers' frame rests.


----------



## jamneff (Mar 5, 2012)

I picture would be great Hive+, Thanks for your post.


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I agree that 100 an hr is optimistic. Last year a few of us got together and did 240 frames in a very well equipped shop. We had 2 table saws one set to rip one set with a dado to cut the top and bottom of the side bars. We had a head planer and a joiner planer, a drum sander for beveling the frame rests, band saw for cutting the side bars.

3 of us took over 3 hrs to do 240 frames.


----------



## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

With some of the new 7-1/2 " table saw blades as almost thin as band saws I see no reason to use a band saw. Use a block with a over hang piece of wood as a push block. 
David


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

tommysnare,
I especially like your thought of making the frame components ahead of time, then assembling them, just before you need to use them. This way most components that are unstable and twist, warp, or check, etc. can be eliminated before they are used in frames and ruin an entire frame. I especially see such problems in Top and Bottom bars, rarely in End Bars. But your plan should certainly reduce this issue.


----------



## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

having issues guys hahahahaha .... OF COURSE !!! i WILL figure this out. but it has kept me in the shop for a few hours in the evenings. not like i mind though. i have everything set up except for those stinking channels for the end bars 'ears' to go around the top bars. just thinking of scrapping it and going with ryan bekkes design on youtube and forget about the 'ears'. anyone ever used his design ? it seems like it may be a weak spot but id like to know if anyone else has tested them .


Shalom


----------



## flinton5190 (Feb 15, 2014)

I make my own frames from scratch and have taken a detailed analysis of the time it takes since I resell them. If making them in bulk it should take you about 4 minutes a frame to cut and assemble. That is probably the fastest anyone will be able to work at. I don't make the top and bottom groove cuts in the sides for the top and bottom boards to rest on because in my opinion they are just there to make assembly easier if using a hammer. I haven't had a problem with them yet and my oldest ones are 5+ years old.


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I believe what is being described are the grooves cut in the Top Bars, just on the inside of the ears/lugs (the Top Bar protrusions that support the frames in the supers). These are cut in the same width as the End Bars, and help hold the End Bars in position, prior to their being fastened in place. I have not bothered to use this cut on any of my frames, and when assembling, I place my first staple through the End Bar and into the Top Bars, while holding the Top Bars down, making those grooves, extraneous.

Okay, I just finished watching Ryan Bekkes frame making YouTube videos. Nice job.

I noticed that he doesn't even make a notch in his End Bars, just butt joins both Top Bars and Bottom Bars to his End Bars. I only butt join my Bottom Bars, this same way (though I include Titebond III in all joints). I'll have to try some this way. He says he fastens his frames together with brads. If I were using brads, I would certainly include glue before inserting the brads - I know my frames wouldn't last long if the only thing holding them together were brads. Brads have very little, long-term, holding power in assemblies as active as frames. Brads work okay for holding molding and trim pieces around the home.


----------



## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

soo if im understanding neither of you cut the ears on the end bars for the top bar or bottom bar to slide into ? i hope we are speaking of the same thing


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Nope, I cut a notch into the tops of my End Bars, so the Top Bars fit between them, firmly. I don't cut notches in my Top Bars, that help align these End Bar "ears", as most commercially produced wooden frames are done.

​If you look closely at this image of my frame plans, you'll see that the Top Bars fit into a notch that has been cut into the tops of my End Bars, though there is no notch in the bottoms of the End Bars for the Bottom Bars, as is common in nearly all commercially produced frames. My Bottom Bars are butt joined to my End Bars, similar to Ryan Bekkes.

I have been making these notches by running End Bar blanks through the dado blades on my table saw, but I think I'll try making the same cuts on my router table - it might be safer, quicker, and easier.

For me, Ryan Bekkes use of a router to create the ears/lugs on Top Bars, would be a serious bottle neck in the entire process. Using the router technique, may be more streamlined if turned into a two man process, where one person does the routing and another feeds the pieces into the jig. I use a dado on my table saw.


----------



## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

The only thing I do different than others is in bold: is to plane them, *cut them at 2x the length*. I dato the bottoms of both sides. I run the end bars through the jointer (no jig, just clamp a stop to the fence). *I cut to length (cut in half) dato the top *of the 2x6 for the top bar. Rip the bars to width. The outside two are generally rounded. Some are junk some are not. By leaving them double the length they do not swing so bad in the jointer and gives me a better handle. Last year I got in a pinch and just bought a case of 100. I have to say that I may be spoiled! I have picked up a couple of cases since then.


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

For many decades I thought it was too complicated/difficult to raise queens, now I raise many queens, frequently. That I would never find a use for a pneumatic stapler - I was assembling my frames with wire nails and drilling pilot holes for each one. Now I wonder how I ever managed without one. And I always thought that frames were so cheap, why would I ever wish to make my own. Now, I make most of my own frames, because I discovered that with planning and sufficient power tools, I could make large quantities of frame components with minimal labor investment, and though lumber is not cheap, many frames could be made for the same money invested in commercially produced frames, but my main inspiration for producing my own frames, is that I wanted my frames to incorporate several variations from any commercially produced frames, and the only way I could get them, was to create my own. Once I did, I realized that it was much easier than I had thought.


----------



## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

gunter62 said:


> Took me 5 hours to"bust out 100". If you can do it in an hour, you are golden!


I can do 60 an hour pretty easily. And at $0.40 in materials per frame, I can afford to buld my own!


----------



## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Nope, I cut a notch into the tops of my End Bars, so the Top Bars fit between them, firmly. I don't cut notches in my Top Bars, that help align these End Bar "ears", as most commercially produced wooden frames are done.
> 
> ​If you look closely at this image of my frame plans, you'll see that the Top Bars fit into a notch that has been cut into the tops of my End Bars, though there is no notch in the bottoms of the End Bars for the Bottom Bars, as is common in nearly all commercially produced frames. My Bottom Bars are butt joined to my End Bars, similar to Ryan Bekkes.
> 
> ...



i seriously owe u a MAJOR high five hahaha. yeah im gonna go with no notches and just a solid top bar to fit into the notch cut out of the end bar tops. what a nightmare without precision equipment like major manufacturers. but,you did say Ryan bekkes cuts a notch with the router table ? he doesnt do any notching in his endbar design. he uses the router table to create that gradiant or 'swell' on the side of the endbars. i like doing that as well. it makes for simple frame replacement in the hive . no messing with a distancing tool or eyeball the beespace between frames. but again...i love ur design with a solid top bar. it truly solved my issue on a smaller .... sideliner scale to save a few bucks a year for frames. Thanks again !


----------



## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

Joseph Clemens said:


> For many decades I thought it was too complicated/difficult to raise queens, now I raise many queens, frequently. That I would never find a use for a pneumatic stapler - I was assembling my frames with wire nails and drilling pilot holes for each one. Now I wonder how I ever managed without one. And I always thought that frames were so cheap, why would I ever wish to make my own. Now, I make most of my own frames, because I discovered that with planning and sufficient power tools, I could make large quantities of frame components with minimal labor investment, and though lumber is not cheap, many frames could be made for the same money invested in commercially produced frames, but my main inspiration for producing my own frames, is that I wanted my frames to incorporate several variations from any commercially produced frames, and the only way I could get them, was to create my own. Once I did, I realized that it was much easier than I had thought.




what did you change in your design from the commercially designed and sold frames ? i would love to possibly do the same. you have many decades of experience over me soo i am definitely in to hearing what worked better for you with a frame design.


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

The frames I designed, build, and use most often: Have 1-1/4" wide End Bars, the same width from top to bottom. I cut a notch in the tops of the End Bars, 7/8" wide, to receive the ends of the Top Bars, which are 7/8" wide (and I adjust their depth, depending on how I cut the Top Bars - so those ears are even with the tops of the Top Bars). The Top Bars I use most have a profile cut into their bottom side, to function as a comb guide, so the Top Bar and comb guide are one piece. I don't cut notches in the bottoms of my End Bars, and my Bottom Bars are 17" long, sized to fit inside the End Bars, where I glue them and fasten them with one staple, through the End Bars and into the Bottom Bars. When I plan to cross-wire, I drill holes in the End Bars, two on medium depth frames, both closer to the center of the End Bar, than those in commercial frames. And on deep frames I only use three wires (with three wire holes), and all three are about the same distance apart, but all three are closer to the center of the End Bars than they are to the Top Bar or Bottom Bar, since the top and bottom bars are, themselves, support for the comb, being that the comb is fastened directly to them - reducing the need for a support wire to be that close.

Those are some of the many minor differences I like in my frames, that are rarely, if ever, available in commercial frames.

If I wished frames with top and bottom grooves, for foundation -vs- foundationless, I would simply forego the comb-guide profile in the Top Bars and cut a center groove, and if necessary, a center groove in the Bottom Bar, also.

-----------
Ryan Bekkes formed the ears/lugs for his Top Bars in a jig that he then used a hand-held router to cut them. I make similar cuts in my Top Bars, but use a dado blade set, on my table saw.


----------



## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Ryan Bekkes formed the ears/lugs for his Top Bars in a jig that he then used a hand-held router to cut them. I make similar cuts in my Top Bars, but use a dado blade set, on my table saw.


ohhh i see where we were misunderstanding the term "ears". your definition is probably correct where as mine may not be. when i said 'ears' i meant the top of the end bars. when the notch is cut out to accept the top bar,i was calling them 'ears'. as you were calling the end section of top bars themselves. basically where the frames are held when doing an inspection. no worries...im in tune with what you were describing though. i will most definitely take your improvements in frames to heart and see if i can use them as well. thanks very much for sharing your experience and time.


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Thanks for the support. My customization's, may or may not suit another beekeeper's beekeeping. That's okay. I do encourage everyone to think about what they're doing and why they're doing it. Sometimes it helps. I welcome everyone to try different equipment designs, to see what may suit their beekeeping best. I can only imagine that Langstroth might be smiling at us, as we learn and relearn about these fascinating insects.

Those thinner projections on either end of the Top Bars, where they support the frames when they rest on the frame rests, or are held in our hands to facilitate manipulating frames during an inspection -- I've heard them referred to as "ears" and other times as "frame lugs". There must be an official moniker for them, but I'm not sure what it is, or where I can find out. And, it's perfectly copacetic to call the projections on End Bars, between the recesses, "ears", also.

Another variation I noticed in Ryan Bekkes frame design, were that he uses Top Bars that are 18-7/8" long. Mine and most commercial frames I've checked, are 19", even. The inside dimensions for supers, include a 19-1/8' space for frames to fit into, from the outside edge of the frame-rest on one side, to the outside edge of the frame-rest on the opposite side. Free play of only 1/8". This minimal play helps to prevent smashing bees between the inner end wall of the super and the outer sides of the End Bars on frames. I'm leary that having the possibility of 1/4" of free-play may spell doom for more bees. I recently made some on-the-fly modification to the dimensions on frame feeders I was building (I made thicker end pieces and inadvertently reduced the clearance in this same area). Those malformed feeders had almost zero clearance between the super walls and the ends of the feeders. There was almost no play, I could only slide them in, slowly, and there was no bee space, where there would usually be. Since I plan to install these feeders and leave them there, unless maintenance work is needed, that may not be a serious problem, but I would not like frames that permit me to vary this spacing from bee space to almost nothing, when the Top Bar should safely govern this spacing. Of course I will have to make a few, to verify my suspicions. Who knows, I may even prefer the shorter Top Bars. I'm also going to need to make a few frames, with the design he uses. I might prefer not cutting the recess in the End Bars, as I use now, it is one of my most time consuming cuts, even though I make it in blanks, before they're even cut into individual End Bars. Not making those dado cuts should speed up the process, especially since I don't make the shoulder cuts on the End Bars, leaving their sides parallel for the entire End Bar.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

What I don't like about 2X4's is they are probably spruce which splits easy. For spruce I would say gluing is required.


----------



## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Thanks for the support. My customization's, may or may not suit another beekeeper's beekeeping. That's okay. I do encourage everyone to think about what they're doing and why they're doing it. Sometimes it helps. I welcome everyone to try different equipment designs, to see what may suit their beekeeping best. I can only imagine that Langstroth might be smiling at us, as we learn and relearn about these fascinating insects.
> 
> Those thinner projections on either end of the Top Bars, where they support the frames when they rest on the frame rests, or are held in our hands to facilitate manipulating frames during an inspection -- I've heard them referred to as "ears" and other times as "frame lugs". There must be an official moniker for them, but I'm not sure what it is, or where I can find out. And, it's perfectly copacetic to call the projections on End Bars, between the recesses, "ears", also.
> 
> Another variation I noticed in Ryan Bekkes frame design, were that he uses Top Bars that are 18-7/8" long. Mine and most commercial frames I've checked, are 19", even. The inside dimensions for supers, include a 19-1/8' space for frames to fit into, from the outside edge of the frame-rest on one side, to the outside edge of the frame-rest on the opposite side. Free play of only 1/8". This minimal play helps to prevent smashing bees between the inner end wall of the super and the outer sides of the End Bars on frames. I'm leary that having the possibility of 1/4" of free-play may spell doom for more bees. I recently made some on-the-fly modification to the dimensions on frame feeders I was building (I made thicker end pieces and inadvertently reduced the clearance in this same area). Those malformed feeders had almost zero clearance between the super walls and the ends of the feeders. There was almost no play, I could only slide them in, slowly, and there was no bee space, where there would usually be. Since I plan to install these feeders and leave them there, unless maintenance work is needed, that may not be a serious problem, but I would not like frames that permit me to vary this spacing from bee space to almost nothing, when the Top Bar should safely govern this spacing. Of course I will have to make a few, to verify my suspicions. Who knows, I may even prefer the shorter Top Bars. I'm also going to need to make a few frames, with the design he uses. I might prefer not cutting the recess in the End Bars, as I use now, it is one of my most time consuming cuts, even though I make it in blanks, before they're even cut into individual End Bars. Not making those dado cuts should speed up the process, especially since I don't make the shoulder cuts on the End Bars, leaving their sides parallel for the entire End Bar.


awesome advice and thanks again...very much.


----------



## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

Acebird said:


> What I don't like about 2X4's is they are probably spruce which splits easy. For spruce I would say gluing is required.



i agree. i glue and air gun staple all frames any way. store bought or homemade. ive only had one brood frame fall apart durin an inspection and im not going through that mess again.


----------



## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Thanks for the support. My customization's, may or may not suit another beekeeper's beekeeping. That's okay. I do encourage everyone to think about what they're doing and why they're doing it. Sometimes it helps. I welcome everyone to try different equipment designs, to see what may suit their beekeeping best. I can only imagine that Langstroth might be smiling at us, as we learn and relearn about these fascinating insects.
> 
> Those thinner projections on either end of the Top Bars, where they support the frames when they rest on the frame rests, or are held in our hands to facilitate manipulating frames during an inspection -- I've heard them referred to as "ears" and other times as "frame lugs". There must be an official moniker for them, but I'm not sure what it is, or where I can find out. And, it's perfectly copacetic to call the projections on End Bars, between the recesses, "ears", also.
> 
> Another variation I noticed in Ryan Bekkes frame design, were that he uses Top Bars that are 18-7/8" long. Mine and most commercial frames I've checked, are 19", even. The inside dimensions for supers, include a 19-1/8' space for frames to fit into, from the outside edge of the frame-rest on one side, to the outside edge of the frame-rest on the opposite side. Free play of only 1/8". This minimal play helps to prevent smashing bees between the inner end wall of the super and the outer sides of the End Bars on frames. I'm leary that having the possibility of 1/4" of free-play may spell doom for more bees. I recently made some on-the-fly modification to the dimensions on frame feeders I was building (I made thicker end pieces and inadvertently reduced the clearance in this same area). Those malformed feeders had almost zero clearance between the super walls and the ends of the feeders. There was almost no play, I could only slide them in, slowly, and there was no bee space, where there would usually be. Since I plan to install these feeders and leave them there, unless maintenance work is needed, that may not be a serious problem, but I would not like frames that permit me to vary this spacing from bee space to almost nothing, when the Top Bar should safely govern this spacing. Of course I will have to make a few, to verify my suspicions. Who knows, I may even prefer the shorter Top Bars. I'm also going to need to make a few frames, with the design he uses. I might prefer not cutting the recess in the End Bars, as I use now, it is one of my most time consuming cuts, even though I make it in blanks, before they're even cut into individual End Bars. Not making those dado cuts should speed up the process, especially since I don't make the shoulder cuts on the End Bars, leaving their sides parallel for the entire End Bar.


i built some frames last night (glued and power stapled) without the cutout on the end bars for the top bars (like ryan bekkes)....and i would definitely not recommend designing them like that. they felt really delicate and i could see them failing for sure. im going with ur design with a solid top bar passing through the end bars. hittin the shop now. i need 100 before the spring opens up for some small splits to cover our losses thanks to this stinkin polar vortex.

With the problems the weather caused us...the benifits are plenty of moisture and it looks like the pollen has hit us a few weeks early. looking forward to a great honey crop this year !

Shalom


----------



## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

ok all done. pictures are on our FB page if anyone is interested. it took some time to figure it out but, well worth the time put into it. i really do think this process will make it easy to make a pretty descent amount of frames in a short period of time. let me know what everyone thinks.

Shalom

https://www.facebook.com/elkriverfarm/photos


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Acebird,
I was wondering about which species of wood I was buying when I purchased local two by lumber. So, today I went to pick up two - 2" x 10" x 10' at my local Lowe's box store. I was about to ask, when I noticed that they were stamped, and the stamp said they were KD (Kiln Dried), and that the species was Douglas Fir. Here's hoping that Douglas Fir works well for hive components. At least it isn't Spruce.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If it is freshly cut coming from a box store it will be easy to nail. After 20 years it gets real hard and nails (framing) are difficult to pull out. I don't believe it will take glue as well as pine but the wood is much stronger and a little heavier. Box stores have both doug fir and spruce in the smaller sizes.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Douglas Fir at the box stores, in 2x4 no less?! Wow, that has me stumped. DF was always sold/reserved for the long length lumber, usually over 16', and rarely 2x4 stock. Always 2x6 and up. Have we an abundance of DF for harvesting now? Always paid more for it over SPF.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I believe it is European.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

In canada a lot of our dimensional framing timber is stamped Fir but that is eastern fir. common balsam, spruce, and jackpine all get the Fir stamp. It definitely is not Douglas fir (grand fir)


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I just finished cutting the blanks for about sixty Top Bars, and End Bars from this 2" x 10" x 10' plank of Douglas Fir. Then I finished enough Top Bars and End Bars to assemble ten frames. I modified them from my normal foundationless plans, by making the Top Bars, instead of with a comb-guide, with an extra wide groove (to accommodate the plastic foundation sheet, cut from PF-120 frames). As I handled these frame components, and assembled them, it was easy to notice a difference in the Douglas Fir, -vs- for instance, pine (I cut the Bottom Bars from a piece of pine). The Douglas Fir felt harder, heavier, and stronger than the pine. I have lots of experience using many different species of exotic tropical woods, and hardwoods, but much less experience with domestic softwoods. In the future I will try to make sure that I select softwood that is Douglas Fir, if possible.

Despite the time and equipment necessary to turn a plank like this into frame components, it seems cost-effective (each plank was under $9.00/each, including tax), the one ten foot plank provided almost enough wood for Top Bars and End Bars for fifty to sixty frames (depending on where and how many knots are in each plank). I cut the bottom bars from boards that are 1" x (3/4" thick), which are usually pine. I also make many Bottom Bars, from scraps of one by, that have been glued together.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

It's one of the strongest softwoods. Not sure how it and southern yellow pine rank, but the load capacity of DF is considerable over SPF.


----------



## HIVE+ (Jan 4, 2012)

Sorry, I was without internet for a week. Here is the page I referred to on page 1 of this thread:


----------

