# Which foundation to build on ?



## stillwater (Nov 14, 2015)

I'm new to beekeeping and was wondering what a good foundation to start a new hive is? I was looking at the Dadant waxed plasticell but was told by someone that was not a good choice for starting package bees. I'm hoping to find something i can use with GTB-GBB frames.


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## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

stillwater said:


> I'm new to beekeeping and was wondering what a good foundation to start a new hive is? I was looking at the Dadant waxed plasticell but was told by someone that was not a good choice for starting package bees. I'm hoping to find something i can use with GTB-GBB frames.


That's one of the most hotly debated topics ever. Some swear by Mann Lake right cell, some plastic, some wax, some argue for none. Some of us are experimenting with a little (or alot) of many different types. That probably doesnt help, but if I were starting my first hives via packaged bees I'd go with full wax just to give them a little head start. I'd definitely look at getting nucs (survival rates have been shown to be better) and start with 2-3 hives minimum. Welcome!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Rite Cell from Mann Lake works well. Needs a little extra wax, but they hop right on it. That said, I am making my next purchase through Acorn because they use seven pounds of wax per 100 pieces. I'd be surprised if Mann Lake uses pounds.

They drew this Rite Cell and filled it in August:


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I think the grooved top and bottom bar is to be used with the rite-cell plastic foundation. I have used rite-cell in the past and have had good luck with it. As with all plastic you need to feed lavishly if you are not in a very good nectar flow when you install your packages.


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## SAS (Sep 4, 2015)

stillwater said:


> I'm new to beekeeping and was wondering what a good foundation to start a new hive is? I was looking at the Dadant waxed plasticell but was told by someone that was not a good choice for starting package bees. I'm hoping to find something i can use with GTB-GBB frames.


Last year (spring 2014) was my first, and I also started with packaged bees (4-packages, 1-Nuc). I didn't, and still don't have a mentor to help me with seemingly simple questions.

Since I had no-one to help me (and still don't), I had to learn on the fly. I knew absolutely nothing about bees or what to get. The only bee company I heard of at the time was Dadant. So I ordered everything I need from them (starter kit, extra boxes, frames, extra bottom boards, and foundation), the foundation I got from them was the"Dadant waxed plasticell." All of my packages did great last year, on the plastic cell. They built it all out (double 10-frame deeps), and went into last winter strong.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to convince you that "Dadant waxed plasticell" is the only way to go. In fact, this past year, I tried the wire reinforced wax foundation, and found-out that my bees liked it better, and built out the comb faster than the new waxed plastic cell foundation I installed at the same time. 

In my newbie opinion (which should be taken with a grain of salt), you will be fine with what ever you decide to use.

Good luck!!


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I think bees will draw comb on your hand if you hold it still in the spring, so just about anything you use for foundation will work. Later in the year when the nectar flow slows down, though, they tend to reject plastic more, at least in the experience of most of us amateur beekeepers in Southern Indiana. I've seen beautiful combs drawn with plastic and with wax, but at least here the bees seem to draw the wax foundation out faster. 

Extra wax on the plastic helps, but mixing undrawn plastic and undrawn wax foundation in the same hive under slow nectar flow can cause trouble. The bees tend not to draw the plastic, and often do things like make ladder comb or draw a comb off a corner of the top bar between the frames rather than drawing the plastic foundation out.

And, of course, we have all had bees that draw comb in fantastic arrays that have no relation to the frames no matter what foundation (or none) you use.

Foundationless is another subject, and I don't recommend it personally except for a frame or two, inserted away from the brood nest in early spring for drones. This keeps the drone brood concentrated outside the brood nest, which gives you easier frame manipulation and better brood frames. Otherwise, you will get between one third and one half of each frame drone brood unless you can insert frames to be drawn between capped brood frames. Way too much potential for trouble for a beginner. Stick to foundation until you have the ability to manage your hives well, then try it if you want. Just my personal take.

Peter


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## stillwater (Nov 14, 2015)

Thank you for your help so far guys. I've built all my own equipment so far as i like to do some woodworking,two complete ten frame hives,two deeps, two mediums on each,and 80 plus frames. I didn't assemble the frames yet because of being unsure of which foundation to use,and at this point i can still make my top bars into wedge tops if needed. I just am trying to become as informed as i can before the time gets here. All your help is greatly appreciated as i don't have a mentor yet,just kinda flyin by the seat of my pants, and from online sources and hopefully a little common sense.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I use the right cell plastic (factory wax coated) foundation from Mann Lake as well and empty frames for comb honey. All of my bees were swarms or removals. They don't seem to care or have a preferred frame to drawn on. They just do it with amazing speed. I will say that I like the plastic foundation for ease of extracting, longevity, ease of installation, less chance of wonky comb building, etc.


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## xphoney (Nov 7, 2014)

With our first two packages this year we put both Mann Lake sm cell and a foundationless frame in at the start. The reason for the foundationless frame was that is was cold on April 3rd and the bees struggled to cluster around the queen. It surprised us that the bees started drawing the plastic first and where halfway done by the time they started on the foundationless. I think it was because the bees had better access to the cells vs. the foundationless frame in which they were clustered on. Of course they did finish the foundationless first once they got it started.




psfred said:


> Later in the year when the nectar flow slows down, though, they tend to reject plastic more, at least in the experience of most of us amateur beekeepers in Southern Indiana.
> 
> 
> 
> Peter


This is exactly what we found. When the flow stopped they would only draw the wax foundation and ignored the plastic. Of course they reworked a bit of it into honey sized cells, even in the brood nest. We used the small cell wax from Mann Lake as our bees were already regressed.

Andrew
XPHoney


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

first year over here and after wiring and putting in straight wax foundation i'll never do it again. takes a ridiculous amount of effort. I use ritecell now and just ordered a 100 piece case. I can tell you its heavy. with ritecell as long as you have the right frames you just glue and staple the frames and it snaps right in. as opposed to wiring and putting in wax I was averaging 7-10 minutes a piece.
oh and until you have a large supply of frames drawn out don't bother trying to do foundationless. I did on my supers in hopes to get some comb honey and they didn't do much on it.


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## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

my first year as a beek and first experience with bees in general; i ran exclusively Dadant pasticell foundation for my two packages.... they all turned out terrific and I plan to continue using it.

You'll run into issues if you mix plastic and wax foundation; give the bees a chance to use something more natural and they won't touch your plastic.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

phyber said:


> my first year as a beek and first experience with bees in general; i ran exclusively Dadant pasticell foundation for my two packages.... they all turned out terrific and I plan to continue using it.
> 
> You'll run into issues if you mix plastic and wax foundation; give the bees a chance to use something more natural and they won't touch your plastic.


How much wax is on the dadant plasticell?
When I recoat my Rite Cell... there isn't that much difference between wax foundation and what I give them, truthfully. I'm not saying it's "the same" as I am sure that it's not. But I add a lot of wax.


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## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> How much wax is on the dadant plasticell?
> When I recoat my Rite Cell... there isn't that much difference between wax foundation and what I give them, truthfully. I'm not saying it's "the same" as I am sure that it's not. But I add a lot of wax.


enough that you can scrape a bit off with your nails, but not enough to add but so much depth. It's a good start for the bees but they still add lots of wax to the foundation.


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