# Management Strategy Impasse



## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

**If you don't want to read all the explanation, and want to get to the bottom line question, skip to the next bold word**

I've always taken the approach to beekeeping that I should grow and expand naturally. I've bought some packages and nucs over the years to replace deadouts, split to increase hive counts, and see how things go. But it appears that may need to change, and I'm at an impasse on what to do next.

I keep bees in the Piedmont region of central NC. Heavy spring flow (tulip poplar, around April 1), followed by a trickle of nectar throughout the rest of the spring (through, usually July 1). From there we have bloom dearth (until normally September 15) and a weak fall flow (if any). The past three years I've gotten my hive counts up to around 50 or so, only to have a fall dwindle occur. It usually starts around July 1 and lasts through September (sometimes October). Some hives dwindle down to nothing, others abscond. There just isn't any nectar for them to do anything. July 1, I had 48 hives. Now I'm down to 20. Four more are still weak, despite starting to feed starting in September, and will likely not make it through winter. Perhaps others. 

I treat for varroa twice a year, keeping an eye on mite counts along the way. Last treatment was in September (Apivar). SHB are always present, but never a huge problem. No nosema issues, no tracheal mite issues. No massive dead outs from pesticides, regular comb rotation strategy (shoot for every 3 years, probably end up every 4-5 in the end). Just a queen that either shuts down, population drops, robbing starts (despite reduced entrances and robber screens), bees fight and the colony absconds, or the queen keeps laying and they eat themselves out of house and home followed by all of the rest of the above. This all happens with me leaving 1 or 2 supers on top of a single or double deep hive. Doesn't matter how much I leave, they'll eat through it all anyway. My overwinter losses usually aren't massive, but between 10-30%, depending on the year.

I got about 250 lbs of honey from 10 hives that I harvested from. The other hives were either splits that I didn't take honey from, or weren't good producers (that got a new queen and/or split up, but got to keep their honey). I'm reluctant to sell my honey in a market or web based presence, due to a lack of consistent availability, but through word of mouth I sell out of all my honey over the course of the year, at $7 a lb. If I put it on craigslist, roadside stand, local stores, I could sell about 10x the amount (at a lower price per pound overall, obviously). But that would require alot more hives, and I need to work the normal 9-5 in the meantime to support the family.

* BOLD WORDS *

So now I have to decide on where to go from here, and I'm a little torn. The way I see it, I can:

1. Resign in the fact that I'm stuck with 20 or so hives in my area, and live with it. Sell the honey that I can, have fun with it, and accept the inevitable massive fall losses.

2. Attempt to open feed sugar water (a little weaker than 1:1) through out the dearth, in an attempt to keep the fall dwindle away. Up side - I could end up breaking through the 50 hive mark. Down side - it could invoke massive robbing, and cost me $500-1,000 over the course of the two month dearth, easily.

3. Try to find somewhere to move the bees to, someplace that has a bloom from July 1 through September 1. Up side - no feeding expense. Down side - big transportation expense, I don't have a yard to take them to (now), it isn't really cost effective to do that with 20-45 hives, and it can't be too far away (like NY) as I have to work the normal 9-5 job and can't check up on them every other weekend if they are 8 hours away.

4. Try to break into pollination contracts in an attempt to raise enough money from them to replace losses every year. Big down side - I can't guarantee or reliably promise more than 20 hives in July-August (based on past experiences). I don't know many farmers (or really any) that would be interested in signing a contract (or a handshake) over 20 hives. And at those low numbers, it seems like economies of scale will work against me, and I might just be in the hole at the end of it. 

So what do you think, any advice, suggestions?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sorry to hear about your difficulties sk. i'm not sure i have any good suggestions for you, but i am curious, are all of your bees in one location? if not, do some yards do better than others?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Not all in one yard, but currently in two. Had as many as three yards at one point in time. 

The different yards do differently at different times. Of the two, the home yard will see a dearth around June 15 through July 1, but will end around September 1. Out yard will still get some nectar through July 15 or August 1, but the fall flow is nearly non-existant. The "fall dwindle" happens in the home yard starting around July 1, but usually starts to hit hard in August. Out yard will start seeing fall dwindle around August 1, but heaviest hit usually in early October.

Honey harvest on a per hive average is about the same per yard. The former out yard I had was about an hour away. It wasn't doing well at all, so I cut it from the program.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

You describe what goes on here with me also. I've decided I have to start treating for varroa by late July to early August, and supplement with sugar syrup and pollen patty by first to mid August through the end of October or first of November. I supplement the pollen patties through the end of November, it keeps them brooding for healthy young bees for over winter. I don't have SHB problem at all here, so pollen patty sub is ok to do at that time here without increasing SHB problems. I've come to the conclusion that my issues are Varroa and lack of Pollen forage, as well as lack of Nectar forage. I'm still figuring out my game plan and timing as well as it sounds like you are. I've decided not to go for honey, I'm going to go the direction of nucs and queens for income to pay for the expenses. 

Nucs take less feeding per colony so I'm going to start my late queen rearing by fist to mid August and break everything down to nucs by middle to late august with cells or the old queens. I should then get new laying queens in a just treated environment by middle to late September. That will give them plenty of time to build up to strong nucs or two story nucs by first of November. This timing seems to have worked well for me this year.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood sk. it sounds like you have done a good job managing your bees but as you say the forage availability isn't supporting big harvests on a large number of hives.

if you were lucky enough to find a handful of locations close enough to be workable but dispersed enough to reduce competition it may be that placing fewer hives per location could increase your average yield per hive. the old timers around here spread their hives around like that, and usually tried not to get more than 6 - 8 per location.

i'm keeping my count at +/- 20 hives and even that few gets to be a challenge with the day job and other responsibilities competing for my attention.  i'm trying to figure out how to maximize the return per colony. my current thinking is trying to sell a nuc out of each one, and then try to harvest between two and three supers per hive, (nectar availability permitting).


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

RayMarler said:


> I've decided not to go for honey, I'm going to go the direction of nucs and queens for income to pay for the expenses.


I tried that switch two years ago. It was a slaughterhouse for me. 

I broke down most of my hives into nucs after the last of the honey flow was over, figuring they would build up on the other blooming plants. Then, if I could overwinter the nucs, I could sell over half of them to cover operating expenses. Paid a good penny for some queens to head the splits up.

The dearth hit (as it always does) and the few larger colonies that I had kept around just went to town on the nucs, robbing them of all of their honey. Carnage everywhere. I built a bunch of robber screens for the nucs, but it didn't help in the end. Some absconded, and those that didn't got robbed. I'd feed the weak that got robbed, but it only instilled more robbing. I lost every single nuc.

After that, decided it wasn't my cup of tea. Thought about selling spring nucs, but the way things go right now I use spring splits to get my numbers back up.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> the old timers around here spread their hives around like that, and usually tried not to get more than 6 - 8 per location.


When I inquire about other yards, pickings are slim. Either it's in the center of a corn field, a residential neighborhood, over an hour away, or the owner wants some serious honey kickbacks. The way I operate my outyard now, the owner gets 20% of whatever honey I pull from that yard. Last year was 20 lbs. Year before it was 12. Others that I tried to talk to wanted a minimum of 5 gallons of honey per year, or 50% of whatever I pull. Gotta pass on those.

Finding yards is tough. Especially when you consider that I'd need to find 5-10 more to "properly" house 50 hives. At that point, I'd spend half the day driving around, let alone checking the hives.


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## Waggle (Mar 7, 2013)

What type of bees do you have? I live south of you and endure similar conditions. I have found that my italian queened hives sometimes eat themselves out of house and home from july to september, the ones that thrive rob out the weaker hives. My hives with the dark, swarm caught queens, cut way back on brood rearing during the summer and fare much better. I will be trying russian bees to see if they do any better next year. Possibly a different type of bee (russian, carniolan) would fare better.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

It's not a queen issue.

Sure, some do better than others. Italians tend to eat house and home worse than others. But I've had Italians, MH, carni's, russians, VSH, BeeWeaver's, a local "mutt" breeder, and swarm caught hives. All eventually do the same thing (although some sooner than others). The BeeWeaver's ended up doing the best so far. But even breeding from my best, and ordering replacements didn't stop the issue.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Some strange circumstances. I have never had to ask anyone if I could put bees on their property. I have gotten invitations and continue to get them. Today...I have all the bees I can manage and so the offers for yards, with the property owner's permission, I forward to other beekeepers. I pay the owners a pint of honey per year per hive. Everyone has said they would be happy to host the bees for free. A couple decline more than a jar or so per year....those get candles....and have been happy with that but would be fine without anything. It is strange how things can be so different from one place to the next. 
I keep my bees in 15 yards....all but two yards within 15 miles of me. I have three yards that, for reasons I cannot understand, do poorly...every year. Except in those three yards there are a couple of 5 plus year old hives that thrive and produce a surplus every year. New hives struggle....often failing by the end of their first season or the second. Same management...less than ten miles away....and an entirely different story. Everybody booms. Go figure. I haven't given up on the three yards....yet.
I know I haven't helped with your dilemma....simply pointing out that you aren't alone in such things....and I wish you luck.


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## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

your story mimics mine. Last year I had 90% losses- starvation, rob outs, late swarms, yellow jackets, cold and while I cant prove it Im sure I had mites. This year was attempts to replace bees. I got up to 30 hives on Sept 1, and Im currently down to 24. Ive made several conscious decisions, otherwise I feel if I didn't I was condemned to repeat the past losses. I have 2 yards. At one I removed all my nucs( on July 15) when I saw robbing occurring. I have lost 1 hive at that location I feel it was robbed out. At the second location, I have a mix of nuc hives and double deep hives. Ive come to the conclusion that all hives located near each other need to be the same relative strength and have entrance reducers on to approx. 1/2" dia/ or robber screens that move at least 6" from the main opening. ONe of the losses in that yard was I left a gap in a Michael Palmer type nuc that I left a transfer gap that the bees moved into the other side. rest were rob outs. I started feeding on the 20th of July and have fought robbing since. Next year I will have at least 500ft between nuc hives and production hives. The nuc hives that were at least that far away from production hives didn't seem to have issues with robbing. Now next year may be different, and I may still have massive losses, but this is what Ive learned. Now I have to test what Ive learned


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Dave1958 said:


> while I cant prove it Im sure I had mites.


You surely do....and it is easy to prove....and, even with all of your changes, if you ignore them....you'll likely repeat your experience.


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## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

beemandan said:


> You surely do....and it is easy to prove....and, even with all of your changes, if you ignore them....you'll likely repeat your experience.


I made so many splits last year, that provided a natural brood break in the mite cycle, and I removed about 1000 drone larvae to check for mites and didn't see a single one. The cold last year I think did me some good. I also didn't see any SHB until late june


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I think this must be a regional problem. I had 2 hives last summer, 1 last winter and lost that. I caught a swarm, bought 2 hives and made a split. I have 4 hives now but 1 is "dwindling". I fear another bee-less winter.

I have a friend who started last year with 15 hives. Went down to 5 over winter is now back up to 20. I asked him if the made splits. He said he just had a lot of swarms.

I am feeding like crazy, but instead of switching to 2:1 this year, I will try sugar cakes. Last year when I switched to 2:1 the bees quit eating.

I also treated 3 of my 4 hives with OAV. Let's keep this thread going and see if we can find some solutions.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I think you have to sea saw the numbers.

If you can't sell off the bees when the dearth starts in July you could pick the best 8-10 hives and gas the rest of the bees. Save the queens. You should be able to get rid of those. Take all the honey from the gassed hives to buy new in the spring.


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

gas them? Really? Seems like he could just ignore their plight and reach the same results without "gassing" his bees....


Depending on the year what you describe also happens here.. Many of the replies I have read hit on the solutions I have found.. I try to keep no more than ten hives per location.. For me thats not so difficult.. Living in a SMALL town I have folks offering places to put my bees in the country, so I currently have about 12 Outyards with not enough bees to go in them.. 
However... In keeping ten or less hives per location, I have noticed a lot less trouble with declining populations and robbing..
In my home yard I will often have fifteen to 20 hives and ten to 20 nucs.. thats a LOT in one spot for this area.. But I have about 12 acres planted in forage, and I pay attention to the bees.. when they start getting testy I will put my stands out with 1/1 syrup so long as they have the ability to FIND something they are less inclined to go after each other.. By feeding externally I have even halted the robbing of two nucs in the past. However... Feeding can get expensive!! 40 hives can take down 5 gallons of syrup in a day. You also have to consider your neighbors with bees.. if they still have supers on your syrup will be going into their supers... Of course, if the dearth is that bad you'd be saving their bees rather than contaminating their honey..


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I don't think keeping 5-8 hives per yard, each three miles away from each other, is really the answer. At least for me. 

It may alleviate the problems I'm seeing, but it still poses massive management issues for me.

Lets say we started where I was at earlier this summer with 48 hives. Now lets say I spread those out over 10 yards, so between 4 and 5 hives per yard. And lets say that all 48 make it through winter with that strategy. Next year, when splits need to be made to alleviate spring swarming, if I split one hive into two, that would mean that I'd need an extra 10 yards, all three miles away from every other yard. I'm having a hard time finding one extra yard, let alone 20. At 20 yards, I won't be able to visit all, or probably even half of the yards in a given day, meaning management for me of the hives and my normal 60 hr a week job will become stressed, to say the least. Going further than that just isn't logically possible (assuming I could get 10 yards). 

Which means that if I plan on growing, I'm going to have to do something OTHER than find more outyards close to home and place 5-8 hives per location. Which means that I'm back to the four main options listed in the original post.

Finding more outyards would solve the problem for the hive losses. But it brings with it even greater management issues, and quickly capps out my growth potential, forcing me to look at an alternative answer in a few years anyway.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

would planting something like buckwheat nearby in stages so you have blooms all summer long help? I doubt you would get any surplus unless you had lots of acreage, but if you can keep them in brood without using all of their spring stores they may be able to take advantage of what small fall flow you have. I learned this yr that with my carnis who normally shut down in a dearth if I feed them real slow it will keep them in brood. During the dearth I put half gal mason jars on top of a migratory cover with a hole in it with 2 tiny holes. Took them about a week to drain but kept them in brood and they never shut down.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

In my one out yard, last year I had a deal with the owner/farmer that he would plant some buckwheat in the back acreage if I bought the seed. I shelled out the $200 for seed, halfway because I was interested to see what would happen, and halfway because the farmer seemed real excited about it (it probably worked as ground cover and helped add some nutrients back to a field that he wasn't currently using, and maybe he got some buckwheat pancakes or something out of it, although I doubt it). He waited till it went to seed, then disked it for a second bloom. All timed for a bloom when the dearth was going on.

Ultimately, it didn't really do anything. I think I lost fewer hives at that location last year, but it was probably something like a 35-40% loss, rather than a 50% loss. At $200, I could have just purchased 400 lbs of sugar and mixed up ~ 100 gallons of sugar water and slowly fed it over the course of two months. Probably would have accounted for about the same in the end. Maybe the sugar water would have helped more. Who knows.

But, not really something I'd be interested in trying again.


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

Specialkayme said:


> I tried that switch two years ago. It was a slaughterhouse for me.
> 
> I broke down most of my hives into nucs after the last of the honey flow was over, figuring they would build up on the other blooming plants. Then, if I could overwinter the nucs, I could sell over half of them to cover operating expenses. Paid a good penny for some queens to head the splits up.
> 
> ...


I have had better luck when splitting hives after the flow to split every hive in the yard and equalize the nucs so one will not think it can take advantage of the rest. Or move the nucs to a yard to their selves away from any strong hive.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Is there a market for local packaged bees and nucs in your area? Could you break down some of the hives into nucs and packages and sell them to the local beekeeper's market? I would think you would find a ready audience if you did this in May. Let the remaining bees raise their own new queens and build up a bit and then split those colonies into smaller nucs/hives in early July that half will raise new queens. All these you would overwinter for your spring flow, and still have about 40-50 hives in early spring. A lot less chance of robbing when you have smaller colonies on your yard and you will have already drawn frames from the spring flow to add to them in February. An overwinted nuc should go gangbusters in spring.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

SS1 said:


> gas them? Really?


Yeah, really. Without gassing them he went from 48 hives to 20. I bet he would get more than 250# of honey if he gassed the ones that were going to die anyway. If he can sell them great but I don't see sales as his strong point. Take the honey, make the 7 bucks a pound and expand next season. It's farming... your are going to kill everything you raise anyway.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

ruthiesbees said:


> Is there a market for local packaged bees and nucs in your area?


I'm not on the scale that packaged bee sales makes economic sense. Looked into that years ago. It's a very specialized field.

Nucs are different. There is demand for nucs in my area, overwintered or not. But it all depends on time of year. March nucs can easily go for $165 each, April probably $140, May around $110, June becomes difficult to find buyers (other than the new beekeepers who don't know what they are doing, which is a nightmare customer base . . . from personal experience). 

Fall flow starts, on average, April 1 and lasts 30 days . . . with a 2.5 week swing. Sometimes earlier or later, can last 6 weeks or 2 weeks. Depending on the year. If I sold nucs, I'd need to keep onto the hives to produce through honey flow, which could be over as late as May 15th. From there, I'm looking at splitting and installing new queens. Acceptance period, and a cycle of brood from the new queen, before letting them go puts me at first or second week in June for sales. Very late for my area, and difficult to find buyers from what I've seen. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but that's what happens around here. Not really ideal.



ruthiesbees said:


> I would think you would find a ready audience if you did this in May.


I'd agree. But I don't think it's realisitic to think I can get them all out in May. In a good year, probably. In an average year, probably 50% chance. In a slow year, not a shot.



ruthiesbees said:


> A lot less chance of robbing when you have smaller colonies on your yard . . .


My observations have been the exact opposite. Smaller colonies get demolished in July/August. If not from my hives, from ferals or someone else's hives (don't know exactly where they are, but know they are around). I will not, under any circumstance, contemplate a strategy that gives me small or weak colonies by July 1. Past experience dictates it's a sure fire method of leaving me bee less.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Acebird said:


> It's farming... your are going to kill everything you raise anyway.


Impeccable tact! opcorn:

Ace...the helpful place.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I appreciate the responses from everyone. But I have to find it very humorous that I basically outlined 4 options in the original post. By my count there have been 11 different contributors (other than myself) to this thread. Of those, not a single contributor has attempted to suggest directly answering the question, or suggesting one of the 4 options in the original post. Instead, everyone appears to try and give an entirely different response. You gotta love beekeepers 

I very much thank the contributions, and don't take this as me complaining, but seriously guys. This isn't something that I just found in the past week. This isn't something that I've encountered and have no experience with. I've been keeping bees in the same geographic location for over 10 years, in over a dozen different sites within 80 miles, keeping anywhere from 5 to 65 hives per year. I've been dealing with this issue for over 10 years, and have spent the past 3 trying to find ways to either 1) manage the bees around the issue, 2) modify the environment to suit my needs, or 3) sell off the bees in a way that enables me to still make a profit. In the end, I've spent over 3 years ruling out every other option other than the 4 in the main post. 

The "outside the box" suggestions are appreciated, but I've already been through them all. 

Again, not anger or frustration with the comments. Just a kind request that we get back on the 4 options in the original post instead of trying to find a way around them. 

Much appreciated.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Sorry I didn't outline my response. My suggestion is based on option one.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Specialkayme said:


> **If you don't want to read all the explanation, and want to get to the bottom line question, skip to the next bold word**
> 
> So what do you think, any advice, suggestions?


I guess it was this little line that made us all think you were open to suggestions...maybe next time you need to make it a poll so all we can do is vote 1,2,3 or 4.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Do you know any other beekeepers in your area?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I've found lengthly posts don't usually get people's attention. They glaze over and move onto the next thread. So I was attempting to give people the option of skipping the background, and just reading the "question." 

I'm not saying I'm not open to suggestions, but I do want to make it clear that I've spent alot of time trying to figure this out. I've spent literally years outlining my options, and I've narrowed it down to the four I described. Is there a 5th that I didn't consider? Very possible. But if you spent years trying to figure out this problem, do you think you'd overlook planting some ground cover blooming plants, or trying different queens, or trying robber screens, for example?



ruthiesbees said:


> ...maybe next time you need to make it a poll so all we can do is vote 1,2,3 or 4.


Yup. That probably would have been a better option. Although I am interested in understanding why someone suggests an option.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

David LaFerney said:


> Do you know any other beekeepers in your area?


Quite a few. Most only have 5-8 hives though. I only know one that has more hives than I do, about 100-150 hives located 15 min south of me. They are spread out over a 2 mile radius. They have about 3 years of beekeeping experience and started (allegedly) from one swarm that "flew in from that barn over there." They have no reason why they have been so successful, haven't treated for a single disease or parasite, ever, and when asked why they've been able to support such large hive numbers in such a concentrated area (primarily agricultural), they shrug their shoulders and say "I dunno."

Other than that, I don't know any commercial operators. 

One local guy suggested I keep no more than 4 hives at each yard. When I said it would take 20 yards to house 60-80 hives, which is where I expected to be in a few years, he said "yup." I told him it would take me more time driving around than it would checking on the hives, he said "yup." I told him that didn't really seem to make much sense, from a business perspective, and he said "well, guess you should move to South Dakota."

Maybe he's right. I dunno.


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## jredburn (Feb 25, 2012)

# 3 modify the environment. See if you can get the County to plant flowers along the outer portions of their ROW instead of spraying pesticides and mowing. Dito with the State Highway Dept. Dito the Railroad.
Plant stuff that blooms all summer, like clover.
Get the local bee club involved and maybe the local gardening clubs.
Try to get some of the local business people to sponsor bee garden.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Acebird said:


> My suggestion is based on option one.


I got that much. More like option one interpreted by a masochist (kill them now, estimating what your losses in the future might be, rather than "resign" in the fact you'll have losses). But option one, for certain.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

jredburn said:


> # 3 modify the environment.


That's the exact opposite of the third option. The third option is to move the bees TO someplace that has blooming plants (the mountain range of NC, the coastal plains of NC, or up north to Maryland). Not to move the plants to the bees. 

Getting what you suggested accomplished could easily take decades.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Specialkayme said:


> Although I am interested in understanding why someone suggests an option.


It is common sense. You know how many hives are productive during the flow so shoot for that number. When it it over lop off their heads it is like raising chickens isn't it?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

You have kept bees before, and by that I mean kept them alive, right Ace? If so, you'd understand keeping bees and keeping chickens are not similar at all.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Specialkayme said:


> 3. Try to find somewhere to move the bees to, someplace that has a bloom from July 1 through September 1. Up side - no feeding expense. Down side - big transportation expense, I don't have a yard to take them to (now), it isn't really cost effective to do that with 20-45 hives, and it can't be too far away (like NY) as I have to work the normal 9-5 job and can't check up on them every other weekend if they are 8 hours away.
> 
> 4. Try to break into pollination contracts in an attempt to raise enough money from them to replace losses every year. Big down side - I can't guarantee or reliably promise more than 20 hives in July-August (based on past experiences). I don't know many farmers (or really any) that would be interested in signing a contract (or a handshake) over 20 hives. And at those low numbers, it seems like economies of scale will work against me, and I might just be in the hole at the end of it.
> 
> So what do you think, any advice, suggestions?



3. they need to be on a flow. 25lbs honey/hive isn't going to cut it with all the hard work you probably put into it. Does it have to be 8 hrs away? And if it is you won't have to check them every 2 weeks all season long only during critical times. Map a 2 hr. radius from home and see what that offers. Work outward if necessary.
What about a CSA with your hives for the city folks? let them pay the bills for their honey allotment.
What about selling all the products from the hive, bees, pollen, propolis, wax?
4. Small growers want smaller bee operations. I pollinate apples and berries with 10 to 20 hives (1/2 my total hive number). gives me some early cash flow and it's likely I contract for say 12 hives in apples and place 15. Growers like that. I'm never certain if I'll have my numbers coming out of winter but buy the time they need to be in the orchard you can bet I'll deliver, one way or the other.

I'm a carpenter so know what the time issues are all about but it can be done, that I'm sure of.
Good luck, the transition may be very enjoyable.
Clyde


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Clyde,

Thank you for the response. Very helpful. Here's a few comments, which may or may not affect your response.



clyderoad said:


> 25lbs honey/hive isn't going to cut it with all the hard work you probably put into it.


No doubt. However, keep in mind that state average is 35 lbs per hive. That's across the entire state, and the Piedmont region typically underperfroms the coastal and mountain regions (although it isn't the worst, when compared to the sand/pine filled Fayetteville area). 25 lbs per hive may not be great, but it isn't so low I'd shake a stick at it. 

Where I move them to doesn't have to be 8 hours away. That was just a suggestion. But even if they are 8 hours away, checking on them once every 3 or 4 weeks would be a real hassle. Doing so less often could risk losing swarms, which isn't really ideal if I'm dropping them off from four states away.

Two hours may be more manageable. But I don't really know vegetation beyond an hour's drive. Two hours west and north is unknown to me. Perhaps worth a shot with 5 hives or so, see where it goes first year and take it from there.



clyderoad said:


> What about selling all the products from the hive, bees, pollen, propolis, wax?


That may offset costs by generating more revenues, but doesn't alleviate the issues of fall dwindle or hive loss.



clyderoad said:


> 4. Small growers want smaller bee operations.


Never really thought about that. Interesting.

Lots of food for thought.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I am on the west coast and very new to keeping bees. I have noticed that in this area all the growth,swarming and honey production seems to be mid April to mid July...then the robbing starts when forage dries up. I now use robber screens, if I feed it is in the hive above the top frames...still the bees know the weaker hives, sneak in and rob them out. When the numbers really dwindle the wasps go in and do the final clean up. 

I also treat for mites. Yet in the start of July all looks great and then the pendulum swings the other way. People speak of the fall flow. I do them sporadically bringing in pollen but haven't seen them put any natural nectar to speak of into comb after July.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Did not mean to imply that 25lbs/hive is not up to snuff for the area. What I hoped to imply was that it takes money to run a hive and the return on that investment is not there with a 25-35 lb. honey harvest. It needs to be a bigger harvest or supplemented with other hive products.
Consider the CSA idea. Some beeks here have great success ($$) with that as part of their model, of course they are people persons and deal with many who want to "help save the bees"- and are willing to pay for it. Think "adopt a hive". 
Summer dearth as you have said is a problem. That means to me that those bees have to be busting at the seams to take full advantage of the spring flow. Come dearth they need to be fed or moved where they can feed themselves. Honey as you said sells for $7+/lb. Sugar .40cents/lb. at Costco.
I have 2 yards 65 miles away from my home base. Sometimes it is a hassle, but I have adapted my management practices a la Doolittle and it has worked well. More hives as you know takes more time- no way around that. Distance only adds to the time spent.
Clyde


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## awebber96 (May 28, 2012)

I vote #1 or #3. It depends on what you want out of beekeeping. I talked to an Amish guy once. He said he farmed 30 acres. I asked him if he was looking for more land. He said "No, 30 acres is all I can farm well..."

To keep 25 hives and to keep them well could be a very satisfying hobby. You'd have plenty to give away and use for yourself and it sounds like you have no trouble selling your surplus. Maybe sell a few queens and nucs and you've got a nice hobby. 

But if you have to dream bigger, consider finding some homeowners in the city. One guy near me CHARGES people to put hives on their property. And city plots are going to have a lot more variety of nectar sources than rural areas. It might help pull you through dearths. 

Also, since you have experience, maybe look for someone further away from you that you could mentor. You bring the hives and the know-how and he or she helps you look in on them when you can't be there. You divvy up the honey accordingly.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Specialkayme said:


> So what do you think, any advice, suggestions?


Gotta move to the money, no question about it. Be it pollination or honey production, or both. 

what kind of scale of operation are you looking for?


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Specialkayme said:


> **If you don't want to read all the explanation, and want to get to the bottom line question, skip to the next bold word**
> 
> I've always taken the approach to beekeeping that I should grow and expand naturally. I've bought some packages and nucs over the years to replace deadouts, split to increase hive counts, and see how things go. But it appears that may need to change, and I'm at an impasse on what to do next.
> 
> ...


Sorry about the diversions. Option 1 is probably the best. Open feeding will feed my bees in Charlotte even and they may not come back home. Moving bees is not real bad, if you move too. If you get into pollination, you have a full time seasonal job. Do you need to make a living?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> What I hoped to imply was that it takes money to run a hive and the return on that investment is not there with a 25-35 lb. honey harvest. It needs to be a bigger harvest or supplemented with other hive products.


No doubt. I got your point, I just wanted to make it clear that the low per hive honey harvest was more due to the location, and less to the "poor management" of the keeper. I'll talk to people from MA or NY or VT at EAS and they'll talk about what a crappy year they had, only harvesting 110 lbs per hive. When I tell them how I got 30 per hive this year, they look at me like I've got a horn sticking out of my forehead, or I'm new to this whole thing. It's just locational differences.



clyderoad said:


> Consider the CSA idea. Some beeks here have great success ($$) with that as part of their model, of course they are people persons and deal with many who want to "help save the bees"- and are willing to pay for it. Think "adopt a hive".


I've hesitated going down the CSA route, for two reasons: 1) I don't get a great response from locals on putting bees on their land, even if I pay them with honey. I'm not too sure there is a market for putting hives on people's yards and having them pay me for it. It might be out there, but I think finding it would be difficult. 2) I work a fairly time intensive 9-5 job. It's actually closer to 8-6:30, with some days going to 8 pm, and some weekends. If someone should call me in the spring because the hive swarmed and they want me to come take care of it, or the neighbors found the hive and want it gone in time for their bbq, or if the hive gets aggressive and stings the family dog and they need help, it may take me a few days to get out there in the daylight. That doesn't bode well for that type of marketplace.


clyderoad said:


> Summer dearth as you have said is a problem. That means to me that those bees have to be busting at the seams to take full advantage of the spring flow. Come dearth they need to be fed or moved where they can feed themselves. Honey as you said sells for $7+/lb. Sugar .40cents/lb. at Costco.


You summed it up nicely. If only the bees could take a lb of sugar and turn it into a lb of honey.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

awebber96 said:


> I vote #1 or #3. It depends on what you want out of beekeeping.


Interesting take on it. 

I guess I had always viewed beekeeping a little differently than most farming activities, or most jobs for that matter. Right now I work, probably on average, 55 hours a week at my normal job. If I got a part time job on the side and worked an extra 20 hours, it would probably make me too tired to really get my 55 hour a week job done correctly. So while I'd be making more money in the part time job, my performance (and likely my take) on the normal job would decrease, reducing the overall take home amount.

But beekeeping is a little different. It doesn't take twice the work to manage 2 hives as it does 1. It doesn't take 10x more work to manage 10 hives as it does 1. In actuality, the more hives you get, the more efficient you become (within reason, it stops working like that after a few hundred).

It might take me, on average, 4-5 hours a week to take care of 25 hives. Including all the winter work of prepping supers, building frames, extracting, feeding, ect. Based on past experiences, if I had 50 hives, it might take me about 6 hours a week. That equates to an increase of 100% of the output (in theory) based on an increase of 20-25% of work.

Of course, if 25 hives is all that one actually can manage, that's a different story. If 50 hives would just end up producing the same amount that 25 would, it doesn't really make sense to do 25% more work for the same output.

But I guess I haven't been convinced that 25 (or whatever) hives is really the maximum amount I can have. That's the maximum amount that this one location can house, but I still think there is a way to make it work, be that moving them to a different location temporarily, or shelling out the cash to feed them through the dearth.

But who knows. I could very well be wrong. The other options may not economically make sense, and I may be stuck at the 20 hive mark indefinitely. 

Or, maybe the only way to find out is to constantly feed one yard throughout the summer, and move another yard to a more nourishing area for the dearth, and compare the results. I was just hoping someone else would be able to point me in a direction, so I didn't have to spend the $1k on sugar, and the time and money moving them 3 hours away.



awebber96 said:


> To keep 25 hives and to keep them well could be a very satisfying hobby. You'd have plenty to give away and use for yourself and it sounds like you have no trouble selling your surplus. Maybe sell a few queens and nucs and you've got a nice hobby.


That's probably where I would be, IF I didn't sell out of all of the honey I own in a short window (while doing zero marketing, advertising, having no business cards, ect.).

I guess I see the lost opportunity, the gap in the marketplace and wonder "what if . . ."


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Ian said:


> what kind of scale of operation are you looking for?


Tough to say. 

I've always thought that beekeeping for the individual that already has a regular job to pay the bills is about reaching a point and learning to thrive there before expanding. The hobby beekeeper should learn to maintain 2 hives before they expand to 10, 10 before they expand to 25, 25 before going to 50, and so on.

Right now, I envision 50-100 probably being the sweet spot for me. Enough to keep me very busy in the spring, but still able to work a normal job. If the economics of it works out, then I decide if I just sell off the excess each year, maintaining the number I feel comfortable with, or if I drop the full time gig and push hive numbers to the 500 range and take a stab at doing it full time.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> That's probably where I would be, IF I didn't sell out of all of the honey I own in a short window (while doing zero marketing, advertising, having no business cards, ect.).

One might ask, if you want a greater financial return from your apiary, and you currently easily 'sell out' all your honey, then why don't you raise your honey price to the point that you don't 'sell out' until just before your new crop comes in?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Specialkayme said:


> Right now, I envision 50-100 ... or if I drop the full time gig and push hive numbers to the 500 range and take a stab at doing it full time.


You will have to manage your operation to suit those targets. 

I knew a cattle guy who has a herd of 20 in the middle of flat land grain farming land. Very little pasture around and hardly viable to grow feed. It sucked because he had to truck out to pastures and haul in hay. That place is where he wanted to live, but what did he expect? That is just the way it is. 
He now operates a 150 cattle heard 200 miles away on a farm suited for cattle ranching. 

You got to go where the economics dictate. 

If you want to make honey, buy a beekeeping farmyard up here in Manitoba and produce 250 lbs per hive. If you want those pollination contracts move out to the coast. If you want both, get your class one drivers licence and hit the road.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Specialkayme said:


> But beekeeping is a little different. It doesn't take twice the work to manage 2 hives as it does 1. It doesn't take 10x more work to manage 10 hives as it does 1. In actuality, the more hives you get, the more efficient you become (within reason, it stops working like that after a few hundred).
> 
> It might take me, on average, 4-5 hours a week to take care of 25 hives. Including all the winter work of prepping supers, building frames, extracting, feeding, ect. Based on past experiences, if I had 50 hives, it might take me about 6 hours a week. That equates to an increase of 100% of the output (in theory) based on an increase of 20-25% of work.


My experience is that it takes substantially more than 6 hrs/week to run 40-50 hives and be in the black. 

The "time" issue you are experiencing now, and in the future if you move to the nectar, seems to be the biggest obsticle you face.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> One might ask, if you want a greater financial return from your apiary, and you currently easily 'sell out' all your honey, then why don't you raise your honey price to the point that you don't 'sell out' until just before your new crop comes in?


It may fly in the face of logic, but I don't believe in operating a business like that. I believe in providing a quality product at a quality price. A price that enables me to cover my expenses and generate a modest return for my time. I'm not interested in gouging the market simply because I can. 

Out of the 250 lbs I generated last year, I probably use 100 for gifts/mead/personal use. The rest I sell. Ends up generating about $1,050. I probably have about $350 in costs to get it (medication, gas, feed, bottles). I usually put another $300 into equipment (packages, nucs, and/or woodenware, although I make most myself), leaving me with about $400 in profit. That's $40 per producing hive, and the producing hives are paying for the non-producing hives, while still enabling me to increase modestly. Not bad in my book. If I got that up to 25 producing hives at 25 lbs per, that would be 625 lbs. 100 for personal use puts me at $3,600 in income, or roughly $3,000 to put back into the bees and/or take as profit. Again, not a bad hobby.

If I'm averaging 25 lbs per hive, at $7 a lb with $0.50 in fixed costs, I'm still producing $162.50 in income per (producing) hive. I don't think that's a bad deal. I could probably charge $10 per lb and increase that to $237.50 in income per hive, but I wouldn't feel good about doing it.

There is a specialty tea shop in Winston-Salem, and they sell honey from all over the world. They sell Linden Honey, imported from Germany, at about $10.50 a lb. They also have local honey from Winston-Salem (although I think the hives are really located in Statesville) for sale at $14.00 a lb. I think most of it just sits on the shelf though.

But these aren't nobodies I sell the honey to. It's neighbors, friends, long time acquaintances, co-workers on normal jobs, people who call me about swarms. They already go to Walmart and see a bear of honey on the shelf for $3.47. They go to Harris Teeter and see a pound for $4.49. Then they see mine for $7.00. They ask why it's so much, and I tell them (higher costs, one man band, local product, local taste). I tell them about health benefits of local honey, how the bees make it, the farming difficulties of local honey. After that, they usually feel sorry for taking up so much of my time and ask to buy a pound. Not that they think $7 is a good deal, but they are willing to pay more for a good local product. And they usually come back. A few people (not many) actually search out a local beekeeper. They'd be willing to pay anything just to get honey produced within 2 miles of their home. But that's a smaller crowd.

But it's a good product at a good price. It's what I think is fair. Which is really how I think everyone should operate their business. Just because you _can_ charge $14 a pound doesn't mean you _should_. If I wasn't making a profit off $7 a pound, I'd increase the price. But I'm not losing money on that end of it, and I'm ok with that.

Taking the alternative view leads us to the issues we have with the US healthcare.


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

Acebird said:


> Take the honey, make the 7 bucks a pound and expand next season. It's farming... your are going to kill everything you raise anyway.


Okay...dont shoot me here or anything. I'm a first year beek, back yarder, and know nothing except what I've learned the last two years so dont shoot me down online for giving my 2cents thats worth nothing. 
Actually what Ace has said here is not the first time I've read or heard of this. That _some_ proffessional beekers do exactly that. It's cheaper and more cost effective for them to harvest all the honey, sell what bees they can at the end of the year and kill off the remainder. That it is cheaper to buy packages by the gross in spring, let the hive build (if you keep your drawn comb they have a head start) and harvest and sell and start over than to feed, medicate, and move them south. Not saying that I agree with this as I do enjoy the few hives I have but I'm not doing it as a business either. The honey on the shelf at the retail stores selling for $3-$4 isnt the same honey we pull out of our hives. No telling how much it's been pasturized and cut with other sugar syrups and sold as honey. The suggestion of raising prices is a good one too. Happens all the time in business with all products. It didnt seem too long ago I was buying milk for $2.50/gal and the other day I paid $4.09/gal.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Ian said:


> If you want to make honey, buy a beekeeping farmyard up here in Manitoba and produce 250 lbs per hive. If you want those pollination contracts move out to the coast. If you want both, get your class one drivers licence and hit the road.


Unfortunately my 9-5 job involves a state issued license. I don't have the luxury of moving to another state, at least if I want to keep my regular bill paying job.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> My experience is that it takes substantially more than 6 hrs/week to run 40-50 hives and be in the black.


Your mileage may vary, but that's what it takes for me. 

It all depends on how you manage them though. If it isn't spring, and I don't have the risk of swarming, I don't check for swarm cells. I lose a few swarms that way, but it's worth it when compared to the lost time needed to prevent those few swarms. I don't check for varroa two weeks after a treatment finished. If I checked it after the treatment ended, I know how long it takes varroa to reproduce, so no point in checking. I hold a similar thought process for other diseases. If one spent more time on all of these, I could easily spend 15 hours per week. 

Granted, though, spring may require 12 or 18 hours a week, while fall requires 3 hours a week. But that's how averages work.



clyderoad said:


> The "time" issue you are experiencing now, and in the future if you move to the nectar, seems to be the biggest obsticle you face.


I'd have to say the nectar issue is the biggest obstacle I face. If I can find a solution to that, time will definitely be my limiting factor. When the economics get added up, and my time on both endeavors (and family) are maxed out, it becomes a comparison of which one I need to ease up on, and which one puts me in a better position (both financially and stress/enjoyment wise). But, I won't be able to reach that point of being able to figure it out unless I solve this nectar/dearth/fall dwindle issue.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Santa Caras said:


> That _some_ proffessional beekers do exactly that. It's cheaper and more cost effective for them to harvest all the honey, sell what bees they can at the end of the year and kill off the remainder. That it is cheaper to buy packages by the gross in spring, let the hive build (if you keep your drawn comb they have a head start) and harvest and sell and start over than to feed, medicate, and move them south.


In some situations, that model has worked. Usually they are further north. I know one beekeeper who does that in Michigan. I've heard of several that do it in Alaska. 

But the secret behind that is the math formula behind a) how much honey it takes to overwinter a colony, b) how much you sell honey for per pound, c) what your overwinter success rate is, and d) the price of a package. 

In Alaska and Montana, it may take 150-250 lbs to overwinter a colony. At $2 per pound (wholesale) that equates to a cost of $300-500 in lost income, per hive. If your overwinter success rate is 80%, that means that you lose $60-100 _per hive_ to overwintering loss with nothing to show for it. If packages cost $60, well there you go. It all makes sense. (200 lbs of honey at $2 per lb with a 20% loss equates to a dollar lost value of overwintering hives at $480 per hive, which is less than the cost of a package).

But NC isn't Alaska. It takes 45 lbs to overwinter a colony here. And packages don't cost $60. I've seen some going for $130 each so far, but most will probably hover around the $110 range this year. That means I'm putting $90 in wholesale honey into a hive with the hopes of getting something worth more than $110 in the spring (for me, 45 lbs of honey at $2 per lb with a 30% loss equates to a dollar lost value of overwintering hives at $117 per hive, which is **** near close to the cost of a package at $110).

And a package of bees, even on drawn out comb, performs substantially worse early in the season when compared to an overwintered colony. I have a very early spring flow (usually April 1). I'm lucky to get packages by the end of March. Which means the package will not have sufficient strength to take advantage of the spring flow. Which means I actually get no honey. That's my region.

Just because there is a specific management technique that works in one specific area doesn't mean it's applicable to the rest of the beekeeping community. You have to understand when and where it's applicable.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Specialkayme said:


> Unfortunately my 9-5 job involves a state issued license. I don't have the luxury of moving to another state, at least if I want to keep my regular bill paying job.


That eliminates option three and four for you then.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Specialkayme said:


> It all depends on how you manage them though.
> 
> 
> I'd have to say the nectar issue is the biggest obstacle I face. If I can find a solution to that, time will definitely be my limiting factor.


My goal is to maximize the return on every hive and I manage them with this purpose in mind. It is a business for me and comprises a good percentage of my income. Writing a business plan for your beekeeping may help with a solution going forward.

The solution to the nectar issue is to put the bees on flows of longer duration. Lack of Time to do so is your limiting factor.

In light of this 3 & 4 are eliminated as already stated, and #1 moves up to be the best option until circumstances change.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Ian said:


> That eliminates option three and four for you then.


Not really. It would prevent me from _moving_ to another state. It doesn't prevent me from moving _the bees_ temporarily to another state.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> The solution to the nectar issue is to put the bees on flows of longer duration. Lack of Time to do so is your limiting factor.


I think it's kinda a chicken and egg kinda deal. Time isn't an issue right now, because I don't have to move them to find the nectar, making the nectar issue #1 currently. Once solved, time _may_ become an issue. Depending on where they are moved to.



clyderoad said:


> In light of this 3 & 4 are eliminated as already stated, and #1 moves up to be the best option until circumstances change.


Why are 3&4 eliminated?

Just because I'm prohibited from moving to Florida and living there doesn't mean my bees, under the right circumstances, can't be moved to SC, VA, TN, GA, or FL for a few weeks or a few months. It all depends on where they go, how far it is, if someone can look at them while they are there (other than me), and how much time would be involved in checking up on them.

While I do, on average, 55 hours a week on my regular job, it can be fairly flexible on time that I want off. If I _need_ to take a friday off in July and August, or two per month, to travel to and from a certain location, that is a possibility.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Specialkayme said:


> Not really. It would prevent me from _moving_ to another state. It doesn't prevent me from moving _the bees_ temporarily to another state.


There is your answer. Buy a flat bed truck, make some contacts and hit the road.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Specialkayme said:


> Time isn't an issue right now, because I don't have to move them to find the nectar
> 
> 
> Why are 3&4 eliminated?


you have stated numerous reasons why your bees need longer and more intense forage. the biggest reason is that the lack of forage has hindered survival. maybe making bees is the way to go in your location.

your schedule will need to be flexible in order to even consider 3 & 4 as possibilities. from your previous posts on this thread it does not seem like that flexibility exists.

50-100 hives is an investment in both time and equipment/bees. It is well worth putting forth the effort to plan the program before hand. I suggest a realistic business plan to map out the possibilities going forward.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Ian said:


> There is your answer. Buy a flat bed truck, make some contacts and hit the road.


That's one way to get the ball rolling forward!


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

Ugh, with a 30 pound average for your area I think you are just beating your head against the wall trying to make a go of it with honey alone. I think you already know the answer to your problem. Feed and control the mites. One way or another you are going to have to feed those hives and treat for mites right after you pull your supers. If you keep the feed on the hives after you pull the supers you should be able to promise more hives for a small pollination gig through the summer to help pay for the feed and mite treatments. There's no reason the hives won't keep living if you can afford to give them what they need. 

Being in NC maybe you can find a couple good Sourwood yards within a couple hours drive from your house. If you have 50 or so good hives coming off of your local honey flow in June, treat and start feeding, then move to the Sourwood. It's my understanding that Sourwood starts in late June or early July??? If that's the case then that would be a perfect flow for you. Your bees would still be able to work a flow and you would get a premium honey to sell. 40-50 hives could potentially make you a fair amount of very valuable Sourwood honey. If you could make a crop the move would be worth doing. 

Option three would be to forget honey all together and concentrate on selling as many early nucs as you can while it's easier to take care of the smaller nucs you are growing to sell. Then pick 25-30 hives to overwinter to use for your seed stock for the next year. Start taking care of the 25-30hives just like you are preparing for winter as soon as the honey flow is over. If you can sell nucs for 165$ That's pretty good money. Good luck with what ever you decide.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> maybe making bees is the way to go in your location.


Queen rearing and nuc production historically has encountered the same follies my honey production abilities have seen. Nuc/Queen production works well April through June, but come July all hell breaks loose and the hives start dwindling, robbing, and absconding. 

Without figuring out the forage issue, I don't think making bees is the way to go.

your schedule will need to be flexible in order to even consider 3 & 4 as possibilities. from your previous posts on this thread it does not seem like that flexibility exists.



clyderoad said:


> I suggest a realistic business plan to map out the possibilities going forward.


Isn't that a cart before the horse kinda strategy? How can I make a business plan if I don't know which of the four management strategies in the original post I take? Each management strategy will result in an entirely different business plan.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

johng said:


> Being in NC maybe you can find a couple good Sourwood yards within a couple hours drive from your house. If you have 50 or so good hives coming off of your local honey flow in June, treat and start feeding, then move to the Sourwood. It's my understanding that Sourwood starts in late June or early July??? If that's the case then that would be a perfect flow for you. Your bees would still be able to work a flow and you would get a premium honey to sell. 40-50 hives could potentially make you a fair amount of very valuable Sourwood honey. If you could make a crop the move would be worth doing.


Sourwood usually blooms June 25 through July 25. But yeah, basically right in my wheelhouse.

Good sourwood fields are extremely fickle in NC. You get a good crop one out of every three years (at least from what I'm told, never done it myself). But at least in theory, the other two years won't produce a surplus but will keep the hives going, better than what I'm doing now.

Good sourwood fields are a closely guarded secret in the mountains of NC. I haven't been able to locate one yet, although I haven't played the honey prospecting game of placing a hive here, there, and everywhere in hopes that one will produce a crop, because if a crop is only produced on average once every three years, who's to say a dry hive is the result of a bad spot, or a bad season?

If I knew of a decent sourwood location that I could put my bees, I'd be there in a heartbeat. Maybe I can place an add on Craigslist . . .


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

You have negated each and every suggestion given to you for one reason or another. 
Why? Do you have it all figured out already? 
If not, then realize that no option is going to be 100% to your liking. Choose the most likely to work
for you, write a comprehensive and realistic business plan, refine it a year or so down the road, update the plan every 3 years or so, and
put in some sweat equity and go for it.
Which ever way you choose to go, good luck & Keep us updated.
Clyde


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

#1, but cut back down on hive counts to what ever hive level the bees will thrive at, or

You are a smart guy pick a different hobby/sideline. Not your fault, some places just don't support a lot of hives.

Good luck. ....Don


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> You have negated each and every suggestion given to you for one reason or another.


This isn't a new issue for me Clyde. I've been dealing with this for over a decade. Attempting to break through the 50 hive mark since 2011. I've spent over three years figuring out every possible scenario. I've generated business plans, budgets and pro formas. I've read nearly every book I could find (and afford) on the topic. I've probably thought of 99% of the possible solutions to my current predicament, and have boiled it down to four directions to take, as outlined in the original post. 

Every option that someone has given me outside of those four directions I've already thought about, planned for, and ruled it out. I am negating the options outlined because I've already thought them through, and they won't work for me. It isn't that I'm argumentative about the subject (although I may be in general), and it isn't that I'm not appreciate to the members here for the input. 

But you can't honestly think I'd be trying to make this work in this area for over a decade but never thought that I could raise queens, or something similar, right?



clyderoad said:


> no option is going to be 100% to your liking. Choose the most likely to work for you


Which is the point of this thread, figuring out which option has the best chance of working in my favor.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

D Semple said:


> You are a smart guy pick a different hobby/sideline. Not your fault, some places just don't support a lot of hives.


Brutal honesty. I hate it, but appreciate the sentiments. Thanks Don.

I think I'll resign with #1 if I'm convinced, either through here or through my own trial and error, that the other three options will not work.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I'm interested to see what other large, successful and expanding NC beekeepers have to say on the subject. 
You and I are aware of at least 1 within close proximity to you who seems to be growing his business, how is he doing it?

If memory serves me correctly there are a couple of others on the forum, I'd like to hear their take, as I'm sure you would.

It is likely that you have overlooked something that they can draw attention to, which would then enable you to operate on solid footing regarding both bees and $$. Or you may resign yourself to the fact that it's not possible for you to emulate their practices.


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## Jaseemtp (Nov 29, 2010)

SK,
Have you looked into find crops to put the bees on? Something like soybeans, cotton, or sunflowers? I would contact the county extension agents, seed companies and or some of the farmers markets to see if they can point towards some one. You may have done this, but this it what worked for me and helped out greatly. I hope this helps.

Jason
JC's Honey Bees


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

clyderoad said:


> That's one way to get the ball rolling forward!


The business stratagy is as simple as that. Either move the bees to bring in the revenue or build bees to bring in the revenue.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian said


> There is your answer. Buy a flat bed truck, make some contacts and hit the road.





clyderoad said:


> That's one way to get the ball rolling forward!


Except it is a pretty sick business plan to take on a large expense without securing the contracts first.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

"contracts" .... what contracts? :scratch:

_Ian _said "contacts" :lpf: Big difference!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> "contracts" .... what contracts? :scratch:
> 
> _Ian _said "contacts" :lpf: Big difference!


Not really. The only reason for a business plan is to go to the bank. Try going to the bank with nothing.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> The only reason for a business plan is to go to the bank.


So if you don't need a loan, it is _pointless _to build a *business plan* as a guideline for your future business activities? :scratch: Really??? Does the Acebird '_Non-Intervention_' ethos extend to business plans as well? 

Isn't this thread that _Specialkayme _started all about the foundation underlying a *business plan*? :s


Who said anything about a bank loan besides Ace?
:kn:


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I really find it hard to believe that there is a lack of forage in Greensboro. There is plenty of forage in Charlotte. One of our beekeepers made 600# of honey with 5 hives this year and most of it came from 4 hives. 

I was talking to our only MBK last night and he said that he was thinking about not worrying about increasing his 5 hives but trying to increase his per hive production. 

The guy who made the 600#, did some pretty intensive management. His hives are on a deck that is 15' off of the ground. He weighs them every day and records the weight, comparing it with weather conditions and his actions. He adds supers aggressively and has a super on the top of every hive with a queen excluder and a back up queen. He has two queen excluders. 1 for the regular brood nest and another for the back-up queen.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

dsegrest said:


> He has two queen excluders. 1 for the regular brood nest and another for the back-up queen.


interesting. do you happen to know if the excluded upper super has an entrance of its own?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Who said anything about a bank loan besides Ace?


What Ace meant to say was 'Another good reason for a business plan is if you need to go to the bank for a loan.'

:digging:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> So if you don't need a loan, it is _pointless _to build a *business plan* as a guideline for your future business activities?


A person (business owner) will do what he thinks is best whether it is written down or not. The purpose of a business plan is to show someone else that your idea is sound usually when you are looking for financing. There are more businesses started and making profit without a business plan than with one. Beekeeping is a prime example. How many beekeepers drew up a business plan before they started selling honey?



> interesting. do you happen to know if the excluded upper super has an entrance of its own?


If not how would the drones get out?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> Ian said
> 
> 
> Except it is a pretty sick business plan to take on a large expense without securing the contracts first.


then... make some contacts... buy the truck... and move forward
or sit on your hands


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> A person (business owner) will do what he thinks is best whether it is written down or not.


Indeed.

But a smart business owner will have a _*PLAN *_in mind - even if that business plan isn't written down!

What is the the thread title? ... "*Management Strategy Impasse*"! Isn't a 'management strategy' a *plan*? 


:gh:


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> I'm interested to see what other large, successful and expanding NC beekeepers have to say on the subject. . . I'd like to hear their take, as I'm sure you would.


I would very much like to hear their input. 

But, keep in mind that not all of NC is the same. NC has three distinct regions, the coastal plains, the piedmont region, and the mountain region. The piedmont region can be broken down into the upper peidmont and the lower piedmont (mostly sandy with pine trees, great for golf courses and army bases  ).

Getting some input on the piedmont region of NC would be helpful. I know several beekeepers in the coastal region of NC that don't have to worry about this issue. I also know several in the mountain region that don't have nearly as many problems - the colder winters cause later spring blooms, that along with somewhat cooler temps which reduces the summer dearth.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Jaseemtp said:


> Have you looked into find crops to put the bees on? Something like soybeans, cotton, or sunflowers?


I have. Nothing local beyond a few acres here or there. Mostly corn, or another non-nectar producing plant.

There is some substantial cotton and soybean fields south east of me, between here and the beach, probably about a 2 hour drive away. But that would involve one of the options in the original post. That's what I'm trying to find out, if it would be better to try and make that 2 hour drive, feed locally instead, try to get a pollination contract, or just give up.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Isn't this thread that _Specialkayme _started all about the foundation underlying a *business plan*?


My 9-5 job involves, mostly, emergency business turnaround work. In layman's terms, it involves analyzing businesses that aren't doing too well, figuring out what went wrong, and getting them on track moving forward. Some of these businesses have encountered extenuating circumstances that were unforeseen. Some simply didn't have a budget, or didn't understand how to follow it. More often than not, these companies have a Business Plan, and it wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.

A business plan is a very good tool to write down to remind the owners where the business is headed. A good business plan will account for future growth from certain areas, and incorporate a very good budget. All of which is very important. But it really only comes into play once the company has a set direction.

That's the point of this thread. I'm looking for a direction. My business plan so far hasn't been working (maintaining the same location, increasing hive numbers, producing honey immediately but once hive numbers are up focusing on queen and nuc production), due to the "fall dwindle" issue. Once that's solved, it may just be a key piece of the puzzle to put my original plan back on track. Or it could drastically affect the whole plan, causing it to entirely change. Depending on the expenditures involved and the resulting benefits (either honey or bees).

So yeah, the thread is to give me the foundation to create (or adopt, depending on how you look at it) a business plan.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Specialkayme said:


> I just wanted to make it clear that the low per hive honey harvest was more due to the location, and less to the "poor management" of the keeper. I'll talk to people. . . and they'll talk about what a crappy year they had, only harvesting 110 lbs per hive. When I tell them how I got 30 per hive this year, they look at me like I've got a horn sticking out of my forehead, or I'm new to this whole thing. It's just locational differences.





dsegrest said:


> I really find it hard to believe that there is a lack of forage in Greensboro. There is plenty of forage in Charlotte. One of our beekeepers made 600# of honey with 5 hives this year and most of it came from 4 hives.


See what I mean?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Specialkayme said:


> make that 2 hour drive, feed locally instead, try to get a pollination contract, or just give up.


2 hour drive
feed locally and build nucs for sale
get a pollination contract
give up

If I were you Mr Specialkayme, I would get serious about this business and make that next step. Make some farmer contacts and move those bees to the flows two hours away. Build nucs for sale back home and send everything to Cali or where ever for pollination through a broker. You have nothing to loose other than time and ambition. 
It almost sounds as if your motivation is not there to begin with. You first have to jump start your motivation to make this all work.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Ian said:


> I would get serious about this business and make that next step. Make some farmer contacts and move those bees to the flows two hours away. Build nucs for sale back home and send everything to Cali or where ever for pollination through a broker.


I think I'm ready, but unsure which step to make.

I may be losing the wisdom of your post . . . .



Ian said:


> It almost sounds as if your motivation is not there to begin with. You first have to jump start your motivation to make this all work.


I'm curious why you think I lack motivation. 

I don't think I lack motivation, I think I'm overly cautious about spending hard earned $$$ on one of three ventures, when I'm a) uncertain I can really pay for all of the expenditures to get it to the finish line, b) uncertain the ends will justify the means, and c) uncertain I can take the financial hit if a or b doesn't work out.

If I take the 2 hour drive, over the course of 2 months I'm likely looking at spending a few hundred dollars in travel. If I feed, I'm looking at spending $1k on sugar (if not more, never did that level of open feeding). If I do local pollination, I'm looking at spending a few hundred dollars in travel. If I go for Cali pollination, I'd likely need to pair up with someone already heading to Cali, or broker my own shipment, which could cost $6-10k in shipping costs alone (but would likely generate the greatest return).

It isn't that I don't _want_ to take any of these options, it's that I don't know which one is _best_ based on my circumstances.

I hope I'm not being overly difficult or obtuse. Just cautious is all.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I apologize if I came across wrong. I would not comment in that way if you were not looking for input. 

In my eye this is a motivating issue. Right now it seems your spinning your tires. It's time to make a decision and move forward. 
If you don't like the moving option, then it's clear structuring your operations around your home base is the plan. Nuc and make the bees. But even doing that is easier on natural forage . 

Chalk it up as a cost of doing business.


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

Specialkayme said:


> I'm.... a) uncertain I can really pay for all of the expenditures to get it to the finish line, b) uncertain the ends will justify the means, and c) uncertain I can take the financial hit if a or b doesn't work out.


Perfectly understandable. I'm sure Bill Gates or Zuckerman had those same doubts too. As the saying goes....No risk, No gain.
Believe in yourself and your vision. I'm sure you'll come up with something and when you do, stay focused on the end and dont let the bumps knock you off your path.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Specialkayme said:


> I don't think I lack motivation, I think I'm overly cautious about spending hard earned $$$ on one of three ventures, when I'm a) uncertain I can really pay for all of the expenditures to get it to the finish line, b) uncertain the ends will justify the means, and c) uncertain I can take the financial hit if a or b doesn't work out.
> 
> 
> It isn't that I don't _want_ to take any of these options, it's that I don't know which one is _best_ based on my circumstances.
> ...


It appears to be more than caution, it seems to have become paralysis. Bee farming involves uncertainty and risk. If the uncertainty and risk is to much to take
then bee farming is not for you. Find out now before the stakes get bigger.
If you are ready as you say, get the all the ducks (and bucks) in a row and take the shot.
You need to decide if it's only a unrealistic dream or it's a possibility to persue and put in the hard work to achieve your goals.

there no equivilent in beekeeping for profit to the Gentleman Farmer that I'm aware of.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> It ppears to be more than caution, it seems to have become paralysis.


I think that's a little harsh and excessive. I posted a question on which option would best suit me on November 9th. It's November 12th and I haven't taken any one of those options (all of which would need to be done in the spring), so I have crippling fear that has paralyzed me?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Specialkayme said:


> I think that's a little harsh and excessive. I posted a question on which option would best suit me on November 9th. It's November 12th and I haven't taken any one of those options (all of which would need to be done in the spring), so I have crippling fear that has paralyzed me?


The post was made 11/9. The issue has existed for quite some time as your posts describe it.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Santa Caras said:


> I'm sure Bill Gates or Zuckerman had those same doubts too. As the saying goes....No risk, No gain.


Yup, and it's equally likely to go the other way around, just ask the NY Times (bought Boston Globe for $1.1 Billion and later sold it for $143 Million), Ted Turner (who lost $7 Billion in AOL), or Willie Nelson (who took tax money and invested it, eventually causing it to collapse and him owing $17 Million to the feds). 

Investment causes risk. Don't risk what you can't afford to lose.

My goal is to just make sure I've outlined as many risk factors as I can, and employ the wisdom of the forum to guide me in the most profitable endeavor.

I'll take one choice. No doubt. Just figuring out which one.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> The issue has existed for quite some time as your posts describe it.


And I've spent how long attempting to solve it? 

I've tried combating it by switching yards (by my count) nine times, switching from honey production to nuc production to queen production. I've tried overwintering in singles, doubles, all mediums and nucs. I've tried Michael Palmer's techniques, Michael Bush's techniques, and the MDA Splitter techniques. I've tried queens and genetics from more sources than I can remember. I was treatment free for over 5 years at one point in time. I've tried natural cell, small cell, and regular foundation. I've attempted to contact growers and homeowners, attempted to break into lip balm sales as an alternative method and bee equipment sales (which actually turned out very well, but was VERY time intensive, unless I could come up with the $120k needed for capital improvements). I've planted buckwheat, clover, and bee bee trees (korean endovans) for local production of off season nectar. All have been unsuccessful so far, and have involved tens of thousands of dollars, and thousands of hours of investment. Which is why I'm adapting and attempting to go down one of the four routes in the original post.

I'm anything but paralyzed.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I have cotton and soybeans around me. If not, I suspect that I'd be in the same situation as you. As soon as the cotton ends, things get ugly here too. Cotton has down sides too. I lost 8 colonies to pesticides this summer. However, I plan to go back to the cotton fields as that's the most viable option for me at this point. I will say, that our area definitely produces more than 35 pounds of spring honey. It all seems to suggest that there's only so much you can fight nature, which calls into question the profitability of option 2. 

One of your posts kind of puzzles me - the one about not wanting to charge more for your honey. Prior to that post you suggested a very high price for spring nucs, which suggests that you're willing to charge $160+ for a spring nucs, but not charge more for what, by your own definition, is a very rare commodity - local Greensboro honey! This seems contradictory to me. It almost sounds like you want it to be a hobby, but a business too. This then would suggest option 1 is your best choice. Drop back to 10 hives and have fun with it. It doesn't sound like you're having fun right now. Not trying to be critical, but that's what I'm hearing. 

Revisiting option 2: What if you charged more for your honey and went with open feeding throughout the summer? Could you not offset the out-of-pocket cost for sugar with the increased honey income? Have you even tried this in past at a lower hive count? 

In summary, options 1 and 2 seems like your only viable routes. Option 3 is possible, but you'd have to get more serious about it by locating yards, buying moving equipment, etc. Not crazy, but seems to involve a different level of commitment.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

the worst thing that can happen if you fail with option 1 is that your bees will die. How likely is that?

If you are going to feed. Feed in hive and use robbing screens. I don't want my bees going to Greensboro to get your sugar water.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It has been said that "perfect is the enemy of good enough"! I like to see a whole chain of connectivity before I set out but most often realize there are gaps you can't fill in. I tend to pick the alternative where I can live with the results and give up a few of the cherished prizes. Everyone will have a different comfort level for risks of different kinds.

Is working bees the most important issue or is making money the key element? In my surroundings, as in yours, beekeeping would be a hard way to make money too. There are other ways I could definitely be better paid if that was the issue and then I could play with bees for pleasure. That is pretty much what I have decided upon. The things you have tried are not failures; they tell you things about your climate and about your personal inclinations towards different facets of beekeeping. I thought I wanted 20 hives and now i realize that three or four would bring me more pleasure.

Don't be in a panic to make a decision; roll it around in your mind and one day the pieces will all fall into place and the path will be clear!


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

AstroBee said:


> Prior to that post you suggested a very high price for spring nucs, which suggests that you're willing to charge $160+ for a spring nucs,


Perhaps I was unclear, or misleading. My mistake. I tried to find where I said that, but I can't.

Anyway, I haven't sold nucs in years. I've taken all the nucs I make and put them back into my own operation, attempting to recover numbers. But if I _did_ sell overwintered nucs, I don't think I'd want to sell them for $160 each. I'd probably shoot for $125-130, unless I wasn't covering costs and/or I found out I really was the low guy in town. Then it might change.

But comparing the price of nucs and honey is like apples and oranges, with all do respect. Honey has a readily identifiable market, with market statistics associated with it (open any edition of BC or ABJ, it'll show you that in my region the price is, on average according to BC November edition $6.39 per lb [I guess it also isn't surprising that my region has the least amount of colonies, by far, even though it's no where near the smallest]). Plus, walmart is out there showing the world what _they_ think a pound of honey is worth. Neither of those exist for nucs, so it's really more about what everyone around you is selling their nucs for.



AstroBee said:


> It doesn't sound like you're having fun right now. Not trying to be critical, but that's what I'm hearing.


I think that's fair. Going out and finding another dead out is one of the worst feelings to me. Not enjoyable.



AstroBee said:


> Revisiting option 2: What if you charged more for your honey and went with open feeding throughout the summer?


An option. It might be what I need to do. If I _have_ to spend $1k in sugar open feeding for two months to keep the hives alive, then I'd need to spread that cost over next year's honey sales, which would increase the price from $7 a pound to $11.

It should be noted that I don't know what the ceiling is in the local honey market. It could be that I could charge $15 a lb. and still sell out. Or maybe if I start selling at $9 a lb. I end up making less than if I charged $7 a lb. due to lower sale volumes. I doubt it. But just saying. It's an unknown.



AstroBee said:


> Have you even tried this in past at a lower hive count?


I haven't tried open feeding yet. I tried hive top feeding nucs from July through September to get them to expand. I ended up having full size hives next to them, and didn't feed those. The hives robbed the nucs and then turned on each other. Mayhem. I haven't tried open feeding just because I knew I'd need to keep a constant supply of feed out there for two months to really see the benefits, and to prevent robbing. I'm estimating that it would cost $1k in sugar. It very well could cost $5k in sugar. I don't know. I didn't want to be in a situation where I started, but couldn't finish. But, if I can't find a location to move them to, I very well may end up biting the bullet and trying it anyway.



AstroBee said:


> Option 3 is possible, but you'd have to get more serious about it by locating yards, buying moving equipment, etc. Not crazy, but seems to involve a different level of commitment.


I already have a Ranger and a 14' trailer. Hives aren't palletized, and it wouldn't be light work, but I've moved bees before (hence 9 yards in 11 years), and I could do it again. Long term, it would require more specialized equipment (forklift, palletized hives, bigger pick up, gooseneck trailer), but at least the first year I could get by with what I have now. Assuming I can find the fields (putting some feelers out for some Sourwood patches again . . . I'll see if anything comes up.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

dsegrest said:


> the worst thing that can happen if you fail with option 1 is that your bees will die. How likely is that?


It already happened once before. 2011 I lost everything.



dsegrest said:


> If you are going to feed. Feed in hive and use robbing screens.


Tried that in 2012. Didn't end well.


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## capathome (Sep 20, 2011)

So is it safe to say that if you didn't have the "late summer/fall dwindle" that your current business plan would be a success?

I cannot bring myself to help choose options 1-4 without an investigation into why your current plan has failed.

You are obviously a smart guy.
You care about your bees. 
You're not trying to make a killing profit, just sustainabilty or so.
You have read all the same books as most of us.

You say in the original post that "you treat for varroa twice a year" With what? 
And now my real question, what are your mite counts? Not sugar shakes or sticky boards but 300 bees in alcohol wash with real mite counts. 
Late season mite problems can show themselves in many ways.

capathome


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## cheezer32 (Feb 3, 2009)

This is my thought, I basically know your going say this won't work and which way, but I get told that all the time so it's ok.

Your trying to sell honey, yet your hives are starving to death? Think about it...
Feed your hives, don't wait you find them empty or dwindling on stores to do so, feed internally (hive top feeder)
Feed pollen sub.
Don't keep small hives, split by boxes not frames this will prevent all your robbing issues and whatever else.
Don't let your hives get small/stop laying etc. by feeding.
Sell nucs/queens. 
You don't need to feed 5 gallons of syrup a hive just because they will take it. If you have a hive top feeder, fill it up once every two weeks or so, throw a couple lbs of sub on and leave them be, that even might be to much (syrup) you don't want them to store ten deeps of syrup you want to preserve the stores they do have.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

capathome said:


> So is it safe to say that if you didn't have the "late summer/fall dwindle" that your current business plan would be a success?


I would say so. 



capathome said:


> You say in the original post that "you treat for varroa twice a year" With what?


I rotate treatments. This past year I did MAQS in the spring, and Apivar in the fall. Last year it was MAQS in the spring and Apiguard in the fall. The year before it was Apiguard in the spring and fall. 

MAQS was really hard on the queens, and caused them to shut down for a few weeks. Not great for spring build up. The first time around I thought it was my over application. While instructions recommend 2 pads per hive, I've heard of others using 1 pad per. I tried it in the second year, but only used 2 pads on doubles. 1.5 story hives I used 1.5 pads. Singles I used one pad. Apiguard was alright to use, but a little messy for my liking. Did make it easy to treat nucs though. I liked the Apivar. But too soon to really tell how the bees liked it. If hopguard was available in my state, I'd use it too. 



capathome said:


> And now my real question, what are your mite counts?


Timing the spring treatments is difficult based upon my honey flow. I don't want any treatments in the hive when supers are on. Supers need to be on from March 15 through May 15, on average. I'll test a few hives in a yard, and if one has 5 or more per 300 bees , I treat the whole yard. I've found treating one hive here, and one hive there in a yard may cause mites to be transferred back and forth. Last spring mite counts were in the 2-3 range before March 15th, but hit 7-11 by May 15 (so I hit em with MAQS). I didn't bother testing them again until July, when they were in the 3-5 range. Decided to hold off and wait until a little later, so I didn't have to do 3 treatments in a year. I started treating them in August with Apivar. I didn't take a mite count in August before the Apivar, and didn't take one after either. *bash me if you want* I knew where the mites were at in July, and I knew they increased, which is why it caused for a treatment in August (second week, if memory serves me). Apivar calls for a 6 week treatment period, so I wasn't done until October 1. I didn't do a mite count once I pulled the strips out, only because I wanted to wait two weeks and see where they were at, and never got around to it. I know, I know.

I could give you more info on last year, and the year before, but I don't know how much you are looking for. Treatment "mentality" and "thresholds" were maintained the same, although timing of treatments, treatments themselves, and testing methods changed. I also found a BeeWeaver queen last year that didn't need treatments. Consistently found 1 mite per 300 bees every time I tested, so I continued to let her go. She got thrown into the mix this year though. Her offspring didn't prove to be as resistent as she was.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

cheezer32 said:


> Feed your hives, don't wait you find them empty or dwindling on stores to do so, feed internally (hive top feeder)


That's the strategy I employed in 2013. Caused robbing.
Although, I attempted to constantly feed nucs and those that I thought needed it. The double deeps that had a deep of honey I figured didn't need the feed. Which may have been my folly. 



cheezer32 said:


> Feed pollen sub.


Consistently do. Dry form. Wet patty causes SHB issues.



cheezer32 said:


> Don't keep small hives, split by boxes not frames this will prevent all your robbing issues and whatever else.


That's what I did this year. Didn't eleviate the problem. Still had robbing. Still had dwindle.



cheezer32 said:


> Sell nucs/queens.


Doesn't work if I can't keep my numbers together.



cheezer32 said:


> If you have a hive top feeder, fill it up once every two weeks or so, throw _*a couple lbs of sub on *_and leave them be,


A couple of pounds? Seriously? The hives would be SHB factories in no time.

I get your point though. I just figure labor wise, open feeding would make significantly more sense than maintaining 50 hive top feeders.


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## cheezer32 (Feb 3, 2009)

Don't keep nucs, you mentioned you didn't feed the double deeps, feed them.

Don't keep anything smaller than a double deep.

If you have a strong double deep in spring, throwing a couple lbs of patties between the boxes shouldn't create problems. The feed should keep them at at least that same strength all year.

Feed from the start, not when you notice things slowing down stay ahead not behind.

If your hives are losing size over the year and they constantly have food, than food is not your problem, so you need to pinpoint that before you can solve anything.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Being in a pinch usually motivates me to take a step in a new direction. My opinion would be to migrate and chase flows. Boat trailers are pretty cheap and can be modified to fit 10 or12 hives on them and you'll save $ if you can do the work yourself. Its just a matter of finding people who will let you put your bees on their property for a month or two to catch a flow. This impasse is just your growing business/set of circumstances telling you something has to change. I have the feeling that you will be successful in whatever direction you go in and whatever you choose to do is going to cost time and money. I wish you success in whatever direction you decide to take.:banana:


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

SpecialKayme - Just a curious question from a newbie. What type robber screens/guards are you using? Seems like a few people have had a lot of luck with preventing robbing, but I have not seriously experienced it so what do I know. Just thought I would ask this because it seems like it is a serious setback to your operation, and if you could get through that you might be able to sell nucs. 

And I do appreciate the thread, I am looking at growth potential and with this being my first summer had a dreath from heck this summer and into the fall despite the good late summer rain. It was shocking to see the stores disappear from the hives so fast. 

Good Luck


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

cheezer32 said:


> If you have a strong double deep in spring, throwing a couple lbs of patties between the boxes shouldn't create problems.


I can agree with everything but that.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

marshmasterpat said:


> What type robber screens/guards are you using?


I build my own. Looks similar to these:
http://www.beekeepingforums.com/threads/5223-Robber-screen-moving-screen


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

So here's what I think I'm going to do:

I've put some feelers out for a few more local yards. This weekend I'm investigating one, and the owner indicated they may have a friend who would be interested as well. We'll see if it works out. But the goal is to turn 2 local yards into 4 by the spring. We'll see what happens. But hopefully, if nothing else works, it should reduce my "fall dwindle" losses.

I also have a cousin who lives out past Asheville. He asked a friend, who said he knew a friend that might know someone who owns some acreage in sourwood country, up near Boone. He said it was located around 50% sourwood patches, and 50% christmas tree farms. It's almost the level of 7 degrees of separation from Kevin Bacon, but it might pan out as a legitimate sourwood field.

With that being said, I'm going to divide and conquer. If I find new local yards, I'm going to spread the number of hives that make it through winter out among those yards, with (hopefully) two of them having no more than 8 hives. If I'm able to find a sourwood patch, I'll put 5 hives on that lot from (hopefully) June 15 through August 15. Whatever hives stay in the home yard, I'll open feed for about two weeks, just to see how well they are taking it down, starting June 15. If my hives appear to be making good use of it, and don't eat me out of house and home, I'll keep open feeding. Otherwise, I switch to hive top feeders no later than July 1. 

Come October 1, I compare the three strategies: 1. The left them alone but with fewer hives in the yard group; 2. The migratory group; and 3. the feed them till their fat group. I'll keep separate sheets on each yard evidencing costs both in time, mileage, and actual supplies (feed) from March through December. That way I can compare not only the performance of each yard, but the cost to get them there.

If one works out substantially better than the other, I'll switch to that method perhaps solely. If the sourwood field doesn't end up working out, or if my hive numbers grow over the next two or so years to the point that I need a place for them to go, I'll either investigate other sourwood fields, or I'll attempt to break into cotton farmers further east. I would prefer not to have to stretch my operation 2-3 hours west AND 2 hours east, both in the same year. That may be more than I can chew. 

Now to set up some unbias grading criteria, a budget to variance report form, and the equipment lined up.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I like it. Good for you SK and I wish you success.
Be sure to report back.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

:thumbsup:


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Specialkayme said:


> either investigate other sourwood fields, or I'll attempt to break into cotton farmers further east. I would prefer not to have to stretch my operation 2-3 hours west AND 2 hours east, both in the same year.


Sounds like a plan. If you can avoid cotton do so. Cotton honey is difficult to manage and pesticides are an issue. Sourwood is king and if you can find a safe and productive location jump all over it.

BTW, from your previous response, I see the ABJ local honey prices as an extreme lower bound. Test the market, seems like basic supply and demand economics should dictate prices not some magazine. Not sure how they arrive at those prices, but I know of no beekeeper in my area selling at ABJ prices. In fact, I think advertising these prices does a disservice to small beekeepers. I charge WAY beyond ABJ prices and sellout each year. I won't even wholesale my honey for ABJ prices. Its not gouging, we provide a high quality local product that customers demand. Again, test your local market - you might be surprised.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Specialkayme said:


> Supers need to be on from March 15 through May 15, on average.


So near the end of May you could take some of the honey split the hives 3-4 to one and sell them to northerners. Run to the bank and no more worries. You then have the option of restocking in late fall, winter, or early spring. All depends on whether you want to fool with the treating and feeding. It just seems to me you are beating a dead horse from June to October.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sk, if you happen to have a local farmer's market that specializes in organic or certified naturally grown produce some of those growers may have good locations and might be happy to let you place some hives, plus you would have less worries about pesticide spraying.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> some of those growers may have good locations and might be happy to let you place some hives, plus you would have less worries about pesticide spraying.


 :thumbsup: Truth in that. Three of my yards are on CNG farms. Those folks love having them. Every time I'm out working those bees and the farmer is around he/she will come up and talk my ear off about all of the things they've seen the bees doing. One was thrilled when he found a clump of bees on the ground with more coming and going and finally realized it was a wet spot where his irrigation lines were leaking under the surface. They call anytime they see a swarm....they know when there's a deadout and want to know why.....they are outdoors and observant and understand how challenging small scale agriculture is for all of us.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

AstroBee said:


> I see the ABJ local honey prices as an extreme lower bound.


They may be an average for the area, or maybe they include walmart prices in their average, which skews their statistics. I don't know.

Ultimately $7 /lb is a price I feel comfortable with. I take the same mentality with pricing honey as I did with pricing woodenware, queens, nucs, and lip balm: do your math on what it costs you, what it really costs you, and figure out the number that is the lowest you're willing to sell the item for while covering your costs and still making a profit. Sell for that amount, and never look back.

If you make money, great. If you don't, it was never meant to be. Re-evaluate every year what your price should be, but look at it internally, not externally. What the guy next to you sells is product for (or what someone is willing to pay for it) should be meaningless in your process of putting a price down. At least in my book.

Playing the game of "well he charges $10 /lb . . ." is just a game of greed, and it's what leads to excessive inflation, a disconnect between suppliers and demanders, and is a big reason why the American economy isn't what it used to be. 

But hey, that's my opinion. Yours may vary.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> some of those growers may have good locations and might be happy to let you place some hives, plus you would have less worries about pesticide spraying.


My one outyard is a guy that operates an organic farm. I enjoy keeping my bees there, as he is genuinely interested in the well being of the bees. Which helps alot.

But it should be mentioned that it goes both ways. I put an add out a few days for some sourwood fields, and asked if they wouldn't mind me putting bees there for 30-45 days during the flow. Someone responded that they maintain an organic farm in the mountains, would want bees there, but it would have to be for the entire growing season (not just sourwood flow), and I'd have to abide by their "management standards." They said everything had to be organic, and when I mentioned I could use MAQS solely to treat for mites, they said no. I couldn't bring in any chemicals of any kind, even organic acids. And they told me I couldn't manage my bees for maximum honey production or bee population, but had to do it in a way that benefited the bees (whatever that means). When I said that no varroa treatments would kill my bees, and keeping them there longer than just the sourwood flow without maximizing honey decreased my income potential and increased my expenses (significantly), so I'd be looking for something like a pollination contract requiring payment (rather than me paying them in honey to use the land), they said no deal. A situation I was happy to walk away from.

Organic farmers are great to work with, but some of them can be a little over the top, want to get into your business and tell you how to manage your bees (even though they don't know squat about it).


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

hmm, i thought that even organic farmers 'treated' for pests but just used 'organic' treatments. seems like formic acid would fall into that category. oh well.......


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

That's what I thought. But again, oh well.

Seemed like a really weird proposal.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Just curious here in Portugal I sell to retail for €3 1/2 Kg. By the end customer I sell €3.5 1/2 Kg. Here the trader usually put 20 % to 30 % profit margin.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Specialkayme said:


> Playing the game of "well he charges $10 /lb . . ." is just a game of greed, and it's what leads to excessive inflation, a disconnect between suppliers and demanders, and is a big reason why the American economy isn't what it used to be.


Just trying to help. BTW, there are a LOT of issues that has led to the state of the American economy, in my opinion very few are related to free markets. Again, I was trying to provide honest input to your dilemma. 

Best of luck with your future beekeeping.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

AstroBee said:


> Again, I was trying to provide honest input to your dilemma.


No worries. I took it as just that, a very good attempt to help. It was, and is, appreciated.


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