# to TF or no to TF?



## ozark.gardens (Jan 30, 2016)

I am a first year beekeeper. I decided on top bar hives, my bees will be here in a couple weeks. 
I tried to find a mentor but no such luck.. so i am reading books and forums and hoping for the best. As most of you remember, this first year seems very overwhelming and i have no idea what I am doing. I really want to do TF but every time I sit down and do some research it all seems confusing. Like I am lacking the basic knowledge to understand the whole picture. 
So here is my question: Am i simply trying to take on too much? Would it almost be wiser to treat the first year if needed and make TF my goal within the next few years? I want to be a sustainable beekeeper, but not at the cost of kiling all my bees this first year.. because thats not sustainable at all. 
And if there is hope in me being TF if there any good books, podcasts, etc. for a first time beekeeper who doesn't have 5+ years of experience to build off of?
Thanks!


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## EastTnJoe (Jan 20, 2016)

I'll get the popcorn....


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

og, you are asking the question in the appropriate sub forum. 

the answer to your question is that it will definitely be more challenging without a tf mentor, and more importantly without a source for bees that have a proven track record of being kept successfully off treatments.

here is a member in your neck of the woods that may be able to help you:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ent-free-member-listing&p=1377339#post1377339

another option for getting bees would be to learn how to trap swarms and try to catch some feral survivors from your area.

if you are buying commercially bred bees that are coming with a history of treatments you will at least need to learn how to monitor mite counts, and then be prepared to have to make a decision about treating them as a stop gap measure until you can acquire resistant bees vs. taking a hard line tf approach and taking a chance of having them collapse secondary to varroa.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Ozark.gardens,

First year beekeeper, don't try it. Look for bee clubs in your area, or check with bee suppliers, and see if they have a bee school. Bee schools may have mentor programs (our club does). 

Even the TF advocates here will tell you, to go treatment free, start with treatment free bees. If you order a package from no place in particular, and don't treat, expect dead bees by next spring. And it will be your fault.

There are two schools of thought, both argued strongly in this forum. Probably the majority think TF is either a total myth or a dream for the future. In this group you will find people who simply despise beginners trying to go TF, because they feel these hives become a source of bee diseases.

The opposing thoughts, favoring TF, are held by people that include the chief apiarist of my home state, plus some noted TF advocates here. TF probably is possible (some would say they are doing it already), But even the advocates say that most bees can't survive that way, and it takes a long and tragic road of acquiring promising strains and knowledgeable selective breeding to get there. In some cases, TF doesn't mean just not putting on miticides, but maybe experiments with foundation cell size, doing manipulations to make the bees periodically broodless, or other things that are at least beekeeper interventions.

None of this is hard science yet. All of it is complicated. Beginners should not even consider this.

Avoid the heartbreak for your first few years. Learn to check for mites, and then kill the nasty things.

But do follow the discussions on this. I treat my bees, but I'm cheering on the better TF beekeepers. One of my queens is from a TF breeder in our area, and I have another queen on order from him. I hope one day we can all do this.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Why would you want to start out keeping bees in a manner you have no intention of in the long run? Why would you want to contaminate your comb with chemicals, start off on artificially enlarged foundation and use poisons that you know you don't want in your hive or your honey? People lose bees whether they treat or don't. You will lose bees because you didn't leave them enough food, or you split them too aggressively, or you messed up a queen introduction, or you simply messed up the timing of everything you did. It makes no sense to start down a road that doesn't take you where you want to go.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Ozark.gardens,

Just by way of an introduction, coming from a guy who just gave different advice, Michael Bush is one of the more respected and knowledgeable TF beekeepers in this quadrant of the galaxy. If you see ads on the right of your screen, look for The Practical Beekeeper and you'll get his collection of articles on the subject. Or, as he would tell you, just visit his website and most of it is there for free.

He has decades of experience. Me, I'm a couple of years ahead of you and just giving you the warnings I've gotten. Which, if I recall, includes the admonition from Mr. Bush to start with TF bees.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> Why would you want to start out keeping bees in a manner you have no intention of in the long run?


 Pass the bowl pleaseopcorn:


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

I wish someone would do a poll and find the percentage of new bee keepers that want to be TF, Tried to be TF and are still TF and have live bees in their hives. Mr. Bush is one of my heros and I love his advice but going TF isn't easy, and it's costly. Just about every new beekeeper wants to be TF. Not a whole lot of them remain TF, I'm one of those, I got tired of my hives dying.

I'll give you some advice, you've got to START with no kidding around TF stock from a fairly local source. Otherwise, you're going to watch a lot of hives die.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

My advice is to learn how to keep bees first. Then find some bees that are already being kept TF, and acquire a queen or nuc from that source, and try to keep them TF in your area. You may be successful.

What you will almost certainly fail at is trying to keep "ordinary" commercially-produced bees TF. Keeping commercial bees TF doesn't make them stronger or healthier, in almost all cases it just makes them dead, sooner or later. 

And just getting bees from swarms or trapouts doesn't mean you'll be getting bees that can be maintained TF, either. All of my original colonies came from swarms in an area with long-used feral sites. And all three require mite treatment.

My own goal is to maintain healthy, thriving, long-lived, colonies. I am very picky about which treatments I choose to use and I go to (some would say) ridiculous efforts to use the least possible of those chosen treatments. But I don't let things I read, or internet sources, persuade me to abandon my goals: healthy, thriving and long-lived colonies to try for some kind of hypothetically "purer" approach. 

Think about these points: Why do you want to be TF? What has persuaded you that it is a better way than treating? Exactly what is wrong with having treated colonies that are healthy, thriving and long-lived? That sure beats compromised, struggling, and dead, any day of the week.

Enj.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

One of the arguments above I think is moot in the case of this particular new beekeeper, who will be taking the rather brave action of starting out alone with top bar hives. There's nothing at all wrong with TBH, except that in most areas it reduces the pool of potential mentors.

The point here is that top bar is inherently foundationless, so the issue of cell size imprinted on foundation is not applicable. I suppose one could tack some foundation onto the bars, but I've never known anyone to do so. The bees will make what they like and if the beekeeper thinks it should be another size, the beekeeper is welcome to argue the point with the bees. At which point, pass that bowl of popcorn.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

-- rant deleted, having a bad day ---
In my world, verification of claims is the lifeblood of discourse. I don't find this benchmark in the TF landscape.


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## Chuck Jachens (Feb 22, 2016)

TF is not for the faint hearted. I am TF with TBH and it is maybe a little more work than a lang. TF is going to cost you money if you are trying to start with packages. Most are treated so there are going to be losses. I have lost about about half the packages I bought. At $100 plus per package, that can mean a lot of money. If you read and listen to Michael Bush closely, I hear references to somewhat similar results. Michael has the advantage of a lot more hives than I do and he can does splits and raises queens from survivor stock. Yes SURVIVOR stock. If a newbie keeps at it, they will get to survivor stock if they have enough hives so they can do splits to make up for losses. 

However, if I were to lose every hive, I would continue to be TF and start over. I want treatment free wax, treatment free honey, and treatment free bees. Sure my business model is not very good and I don't see a monetary profit on the horizon. I will have a much better life because of it.

I am independently evaluating the information from Michael Bush and a wide range of other people. Bee keeping is ecosystem management, I am always asking the question of why did something occur and then look at what was out of balance.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Aside from the TF or not to TF issue I'd say that top bars can be swarmy. 

You'll need to build a couple top bar nucs. 1/2 or 1/3 the length of your regular hives. They'll be for doing splits and giving you some time when them swarm cells pop up and they will. Just plan on them swarming or at least trying to. The top bar nucs will give you time to build another hive or two real quick or you can sell some bees.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

Chuck Jachens said:


> TF is not for the faint hearted. I am TF with TBH and it is maybe a little more work than a lang. TF is going to cost you money if you are trying to start with packages. Most are treated so there are going to be losses. I have lost about about half the packages I bought. At $100 plus per package, that can mean a lot of money. If you read and listen to Michael Bush closely, I hear references to somewhat similar results. Michael has the advantage of a lot more hives than I do and he can does splits and raises queens from survivor stock. Yes SURVIVOR stock. If a newbie keeps at it, they will get to survivor stock if they have enough hives so they can do splits to make up for losses.
> 
> However, if I were to lose every hive, I would continue to be TF and start over. I want treatment free wax, treatment free honey, and treatment free bees. Sure my business model is not very good and I don't see a monetary profit on the horizon. I will have a much better life because of it.
> 
> I am independently evaluating the information from Michael Bush and a wide range of other people. Bee keeping is ecosystem management, I am always asking the question of why did something occur and then look at what was out of balance.




Oz Gardens---this above is some great advice in my opinion. You have to figure out what you believe in regarding treatments and the entire system of keeping bees, environment, etc. If TF is a core value for you, starting treatments presents issues such as contamination and how to deal with that later. On the other hand, you sound a little more like my philosophy which is TF as much as possible with limited intervention when needed. For example, I used formic acid on a group of colonies this fall that i wouldnt have normally treated. However, i figured that i really needed those colonies come this spring and having nothing falls into the category of "not an option" for me as I simply no longer have resources to rebuild from. 

I think it just needs to be a personal choice. I go way back; being on the initial TF movement over 20 years ago when what has now become commercially available stock was originally being selected and sent to USDA for evaluation. To me the quickest way to get where you seem to want to be is in stock. I didn't notice if you mentioned where your bees were coming from but if it isn't established stock that handles no treatments you will need to start working on that as a top priority. Look specifically for russian type of stock or VSH stock. That will get you there in the shortest amount of time. Simple survivor stock may or may not due to lots of variation in environment exposure; in other words I've seen some beekeepers think they had great survivor stock find out that wasn't the case when exposed to a different environment. The survivor characteristics are now somewhat mapped out in grooming behavior and hygenic selection and can now be purchased somewhat readily compared to what was the case even a dozen years ago. I still support seeking survivor stock from local populations and your own colonies but remember it is a hard road if you don't have the colonies to sort from. The road to VSH started with selection from 10,000s colonies from this state alone with just a handful of those colonies being able to handle TF long term. Trying to do the same with 25-50 or even 100 colonies is amazing tough but still a great goal and now more attainable as those genes have been spread over the last few years.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Wait till you have managed to be successful with the treatment method. Don't believe the hype that it is easy.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Exactly what is wrong with having treated colonies that are healthy, thriving and long-lived? That sure beats compromised, struggling, and dead, any day of the week.

Those are not the only items on the menu.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

Michael Bush said:


> Why would you want to start out keeping bees in a manner you have no intention of in the long run? Why would you want to contaminate your comb with chemicals, start off on artificially enlarged foundation and use poisons that you know you don't want in your hive or your honey? People lose bees whether they treat or don't. You will lose bees because you didn't leave them enough food, or you split them too aggressively, or you messed up a queen introduction, or you simply messed up the timing of everything you did. It makes no sense to start down a road that doesn't take you where you want to go.


This is great advice. To the op, pretty much anything I wouldn't use in my house, in my food, and especially if i'm not supposed to touch it without gloves, I will not use in my bees. Using no foundation(Natural foundation is normally smaller, it makes it harder for mites to survive in a smaller cell), drone combs(Mites feed on drones), making splits (Causes a brood pause), are all viable mite treatments that are chemical free.


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## Scott Gough (Dec 10, 2015)

If you are looking for a local club check out... http://mostatebeekeepers.org/local-associations/

I know that the Boone County club is fairly active and located just north of you.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Whatever course you choose, my advice is to learn some method to objectively test for varroa mites. They are enemy number one...to all beekeepers. Knowing the level of infestation will often allow you to understand what forces are driving your outcomes. Build on knowledge.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

beemandan said:


> Whatever course you choose, my advice is to learn some method to objectively test for varroa mites. They are enemy number one...to all beekeepers. Knowing the level of infestation will often allow you to understand what forces are driving your outcomes. Build on knowledge.


:thumbsup:


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## MartinW (Feb 28, 2015)

Hello O.G.

Just finished my 1st year TF, Top Bar Beekeeper,

-I tried to find a mentor but no such luck.

Yup, I didn't connect with someone in my area with a similar outlook until I believe June or July.

- And if there is hope in me being TF if there any good books, podcasts, etc. for a first time beekeeper who doesn't have 5+ years of experience to build off of?

There's definitely hope. A few TF or top bar resources...
- McCartney M Taylor videos
- Wyatt A. Mangum book and videos
- Michael Bush - The Practical Beekeeper web site. Lots of videos of Michael speaking on-line as well
- The Top Bar forum on this site is great for questions. Try the search options.
- Organic Beekeepers Yahoo Group. This super-intense group of organic beekeepers is not for everyone, but they have an excellent network with access to treatment free bees, swarm capture support, queens, and queen cells, as far as I can tell. I'm not small cell, but one local beekeeper that I really like and respect belongs to this group
- Less Crowder has a great book on top bar beekeeping. It's been around long enough that you may find it at your library
- Great educational videos on National Honey Show lectures you tube

Good luck!


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

The odds are stacked against you being successful in thetreatment free arena. I don’t say this to be discouraging or to say it is not possible, only that it is improbable. You have not been able to find a Top Bar mentor, much less a treatment free mentor. To even have a chance at success you will need to start bees that can survive treatment free. Finding these will be much more difficult than finding a top bar mentor. Even if you find bees that are purportedly genetically able to survive treatment free,there are no guarantees they are. You also have a stated mindset of not wanting your bees to die and this will also work against you if you decide to go treatment free. You are just beginning and all the research in the world will not adequately prepare you to keep bees without actual hands on experience.

From what I see in your post, you are already going top bar, which is also going foundationless. So you will have to start with a package or a swarm, which is even harder way to get proven treatment free bees. So you will be climbing an uphill battle even before you consider treatment free. Personally, I would recommend going top bar if that is your wish; learn to deal with the bees, wax moths, swarm control,winterizing, feeding if necessary, bee diseases, etc. Then after all that, if you still feel inclined to move to treatment free, sell your bees and start fresh with bees with proven treatment free survivability. But if you are set on treatment free, then give yourself every chance for success, by being patient enough to find the correct bees, a good mentor, and then try and keep it simple.

If you are going to drink the cool aid, then drink the whole glass, half a glass just extends the misery.

Now, that was long, but the following is where my experience is from:

I drank the treatment free cool aid when I first started back in 2009. Was going to be treatment free, do it “right”. Read M. Bush’s website (pretty much memorized it). Spent about 9 months researching extensively, built my own equipment. Then I decided to dive in in November so I could get some experience with overwintering complete hives. I Bought 2 complete single deeps with one brood box each and 1 super each. They needed feeding. They were not treatment free bees but were all that were available. In late December they started dying. I asked advice here, and as you can imagine, received lots of conflicting “solutions”. The state bee inspector said varroa and to treat them or lose them. I treated with grease patties and apiguard (tracheal mites could still be an issue then and these bees were crawlers with k-wings). Lost the hive that was strongest, the weak one survived, which is a good indication that it was in fact varroa. Since then all my bees are from, splits, established hive removals and swarms. All local successful bees. I did buy 6 commercial queens which I was not happy with their progeny. I ran one top bar hive for the experience, did not like it as it was harder to manage and less productive than my Langs. I continued treating these minimally and thought I was doing well then three years ago, I lost 22 of the 28 colonies. I had built up too. This was from a failure to treat adequately and timely. So then I started treating with gusto(Amitraz). Last year I also moved 7 hives to an out yard and did not treat them. Lost 5 of the 7. And have since treated those also. Currently I have 18 colonies at my primary apiary (my house) and colonies at my out yard. All are treated with Amitraz when needed (which is once or twice ayear). All my current hives are doing very well and I had very little loss in the last 12 months, excluding unsuccessful integrations of removal bees and swarms.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Most of the good advice has already been given, I can only add that replacing a commercial queen with a queen from treatment free stock can go a long way toward eliminating the need for chemicals. Carpenter Apiaries can provide queens if you choose this route. IMO, it is better to get queens from a local treatment free source.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Anyone can tell someone something is easy. Whether it is in the favor of treating or not treating. 

Profitable beekeepers treat. Oxalic acid allows the honey bees to be healthier then a colony without treatment. 

These so-called successes of the treatment movement is based upon splitting the heck out of your bees, better genetics, and accepting that you will lose bees.

You think 30% losses are bad...try treatment-free beekeeping without experience and find out.

No one who legitimately was concerned about the new future beekeeper would tell them to start off treatment free. It is difficult being a successful beekeeper treating your colony and learning the basics! 

Agendas are what drives treatment free the most not facts. 

Can you do it TF successfully? That depends on your definition of success. The TFers I know make very little honey in comparison to their neighbors that treat. And they HAVE to know how to split and reproduce! The only treatment free beekeepers I know that make money sell honey bees/mites or information.

Regardless of what you choose you will lose honey bees. Just lose fewer and treat.

Alright guys pass the popcorn bowl to this former treatment free beekeeper and hang on!


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

For the original poster, I started out with a topbar hive in 2013 and was treatment free from day 1. Bought Michael Bush's book and all the other books I could find on topbar hive management. Still had an uphill battle to fight with my local bee clubs. Even though they preach treatment-free, they could not wrap their mind around a newbee starting with a topbar hive.

Not only did my bees survive the first year, they thrived and now I have many, many hives. I raise treatment free topbar nucs for other people who want to get started, and I also give a monthly class on backyard beekeeping in a topbar beehive at the garden center where I work.

If you want to be a treatment free beekeeper, do it from Day 1. Read everything you can about how to keep healthy bees. Make sure your bees have a multitude of pollen and nectar to forage on (I find an urban area is easier on the bees than an agricultural area, due to the chemicals used on crops and lack of variety of pollen/nectar). I also like to use local bee stock from a reputable beekeeper in your area. They probably won't be a "topbar guy", but you can still requeen a package of bees with a local queen later in the season.

I also use brood breaks every July. Diatomaceous earth on the bottom board, under a screened bottom board, and anise oil in a water bottle to work the bees rather than a smoker (an Egyptian study has shown that can help with varroa). I also have a FB page if you'd like to follow that, and I'm happy to help at any time. You will also find the Topbar hive forum here on Beesource to be a very friendly group to ask question in.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

They are your bees, keep them anyway that you want. You are going to kill bees either way you choose. You can go treatment free which is really going to ramp up your learning curve, or you can follow the heard and treat. The beauty of living in America is that it is your choice, and your responsibility, either way. If you start treatment free, you can easily choose to treat if you feel that that is the right course for you, down the road. By that time, you might even understand all the treatment options out there, and why you may want to pick one over the other.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Going into my 3rd season treatment free. Not all roses but my hive count has gone up each year so far in spite of mites AND my incompetence. I brought in some queens with some history of resistance immediately when I started. This year I have hives that have survived 2 winters without treatment. 

In my opinion, if you are doing TF, you will learn to do make new hives and have more than you need going into winter. Backup is often a forgotten principal in the treating crowd. The treaters concentrate on keeping their hives alive by chemical means and often forget about broader genetic/epidemiological/ecological implications of treating and moving large numbers of bees from region to region. The big picture results in bad bee health. It is business as usual approach that have brought foreign pests to North America to begin with, not just with bees but in all of agriculture and forestry.

You have to decide which philosophical approach is better suited to you.

So far I have not regretted my decision to go TF. In fact I wouldn't be keeping bees if that wasn't an option. We can thank the pioneers like Michael Bush and Kirk Webster to outline the world of the possible rather than be hemmed in by a narrow industrial world view. TF in my opinion is the approach based on science. Not just the science of what chemical kills what but taking into account all aspects of genetics, ecology, epidemiology, nutrition, potential impacts of symbionts etc. One way leads to basic ignorance of the broader picture as these things are negated by chemical application, at least in the short term. TF should lead to a broader understanding of the big picture, and learning to work within the principles of all science. It may mean forgoing some aspects of certain business models, rather adapting business models to principles of science.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

lharder said:


> In my opinion, if you are doing TF, you will learn to do make new hives and have more than you need going into winter. Backup is often a forgotten principal in the treating crowd. The treaters concentrate on keeping their hives alive by chemical means and often forget about broader genetic/epidemiological/ecological implications of treating and moving large numbers of bees from region to region. The big picture results in bad bee health. It is business as usual approach that have brought foreign pests to North America to begin with, not just with bees but in all of agriculture and forestry.


Not just backup, but making those backups from your most promising colonies. In other words, selective breeding. Great idea. My wife and I made two nucs to overwinter last year. Both survived the winter. One now occupies the spot where we lost a dink colony. Both of the nucs, by the way, are a couple of generations out from a TF queen breeder. We now have 3 colonies from that line (with another queen on order direct from that source), plus some fiesty Russians. Which should mean we might now be able to get by TF.

Hard to do this for a beginner with just one hive, though. TF without multiple hives I think can only have a chance if you are part of a regional effort. Somebody else is running the TF program, and the one-hive effort is then essentially just a very small outyard in that effort. Even in our case, we're a small outyard in a larger effort, using somebody else's TF line.


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## ozark.gardens (Jan 30, 2016)

thanks so much!!


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## ozark.gardens (Jan 30, 2016)

Lots of people seem to be concerned with my non TF packages.. i agree there. I had an idea this morning- re-queening with an TF russian queen in the summer, after they get settled? really stupid idea? the most brilliant idea you have ever heard?? Thanks!


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Anyone can tell someone something is easy. Whether it is in the favor of treating or not treating. These so-called successes of the treatment movement is based upon splitting the heck out of your bees, better genetics, and accepting that you will lose bees. No one who legitimately was concerned about the new future beekeeper would tell them to start off treatment free. It is difficult being a successful beekeeper treating your colony and learning the basics! Agendas are what drives treatment free the most not facts. Can you do it TF successfully? That depends on your definition of success. The TFers I know make very little honey in comparison to their neighbors that treat. And they HAVE to know how to split and reproduce! The only treatment free beekeepers I know that make money sell honey bees/mites or information.
> Regardless of what you choose you will lose honey bees. Just lose fewer and treat. Alright guys pass the popcorn bowl to this former treatment free beekeeper and hang on!


Sounds like your hanging out with the wrong TF beekeepers Ozark re-queening with a Russian or a treatment free queen sometime after they are established would be a way to start your TF journey.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

ozark.gardens said:


> Lots of people seem to be concerned with my non TF packages.. i agree there. I had an idea this morning- re-queening with an TF russian queen in the summer, after they get settled? really stupid idea? the most brilliant idea you have ever heard?? Thanks!


Very good idea. I would suggest sooner rather than later, before the mites build up.

The particular locally-developed line of VSH bees I'm using may be somewhat atypical. Several weeks after the new VSH queen and her nuc were combined with an old colony with a failed queen, the mite drop rate started to climb. After a month it was positively scarry. However, sugar rolls performed during that period showed very few mites on the bees (0 to 2 per test). Having since checked with the breeder, this is typical of this line ... they apparently either groom them off or are very aggressive at removing mites during the VSH behavior. Depending on the bees, you might also see signs of a lot of mites being dropped after a new queen is introduced.

My understanding is that Russians groom mites off as part of their anti-mite behavior.

Do give some thought to this process. Our Langstroth hives have oil trays for the mites to fall into and drown. I don't know of any such tool for TBH. What you don't want is mites falling off and then just climbing back into the hive. Is there any such thing as a screened bottom with a sticky board for TBH?


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## DillardGA. (Jan 27, 2016)

Hi only been doing this for 26yrs so my opinion probably isn't very great lol however everyone is saying they are or wanta be TF however those same people if not themselves one or more of there family members have been to the Dr. in the last year if your bees can bee TF why cant they? You don't get pneumonia and just say hope I make it.


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## ozark.gardens (Jan 30, 2016)

anyone have good luck with wildflower meadows queens? or any better suggestions??


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## yukonjack (Mar 12, 2015)

DillardGA. said:


> Hi only been doing this for 26yrs so my opinion probably isn't very great lol however everyone is saying they are or wanta be TF however those same people if not themselves one or more of there family members have been to the Dr. in the last year if your bees can bee TF why cant they? You don't get pneumonia and just say hope I make it.


You might if you had 1000-2000 kids a day that only lived 42 days.
Bees aren't people and people aren't bees....last I checked anyway.


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## DillardGA. (Jan 27, 2016)

Sorry for my opinion just saying take care of what you care about and bees aren't people kinda funny you had to check most people know that but they still matter that's why we have them.


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## ozark.gardens (Jan 30, 2016)

Thanks MartinW- you give me hope! good luck whit this coming year!


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

Phoebee said:


> Very good idea. I would suggest sooner rather than later, before the mites build up.
> 
> The particular locally-developed line of VSH bees I'm using may be somewhat atypical. Several weeks after the new VSH queen and her nuc were combined with an old colony with a failed queen, the mite drop rate started to climb. After a month it was positively scarry. However, sugar rolls performed during that period showed very few mites on the bees (0 to 2 per test). Having since checked with the breeder, this is typical of this line ... they apparently either groom them off or are very aggressive at removing mites during the VSH behavior. Depending on the bees, you might also see signs of a lot of mites being dropped after a new queen is introduced.
> 
> ...


You'll find grooming behavior with some stocks and definately Russians. Normally if you look at a collection board under screened bottom on those hive you will see a high percentage of mites damaged from grooming. Not sure if it's enough to keep them from reattaching though. Interesting question.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

BigBlackBirds said:


> You'll find grooming behavior with some stocks and definately Russians. Normally if you look at a collection board under screened bottom on those hive you will see a high percentage of mites damaged from grooming. Not sure if it's enough to keep them from reattaching though. Interesting question.


There's a line of grooming bees making the rounds now called Purdue Ankle-biters. These chomp the legs off the mites while grooming. Dang, I want the video! Our TF-breeding friend has gotten some of these and is going to try to work the characteristic into the breed. I had to look up the ability of bees to bite like this. Normally we don't notice their mandibles, but they've got them, and evidently can use them. Just one of the hopeful signs we may get there.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...due-Ankle-Biting-Queen-(Varroa-Mites-beware-)


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

DillardGA. said:


> however everyone is saying they are or wanta be TF however those same people if not themselves one or more of there family members have been to the Dr. in the last year if your bees can bee TF why cant they?.


Humans have a liver. Bees only have wax. If you don't understand this don't try TF.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

DillardGA. said:


> Hi only been doing this for 26yrs so my opinion probably isn't very great lol however everyone is saying they are or wanta be TF however those same people if not themselves one or more of there family members have been to the Dr. in the last year if your bees can bee TF why cant they? You don't get pneumonia and just say hope I make it.


Sounds kind of fishy to me. You say you've been keeping bees for 26 yrs. or so but your profile says 21 yrs.? So how many years have you been keeping bees?:scratch:


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

ozark.gardens said:


> Lots of people seem to be concerned with my non TF packages.. i agree there. I had an idea this morning- re-queening with an TF russian queen in the summer, after they get settled? really stupid idea? the most brilliant idea you have ever heard?? Thanks!


My first year I started with a generic spring time nuc headed by a Hawaiian queen. Brought in 4 Saskatraz queens, was given a local queen cell, and farted around and raised a couple more queens. Overwintered 8 nucs carefully following Michael Palmers advice on overwintering them, came out with 6. The Hawaiian queen and one of her daughters didn't make it, though I have one of her granddaughters doing well.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>however everyone is saying they are or wanta be TF however those same people if not themselves one or more of there family members have been to the Dr. in the last year if your bees can bee TF why cant they?

I never understand the comparisons of people to bees... but if you insist on going there, other than check-ups required for life insurance and a check-up before deploying, I haven't seen a doctor in more than a decade and have no intentions of doing so... Doctors will kill you.
http://www.missourilawyers.com/2015/03/npr-440000-deaths-from-medical-malpractice/

More than ten times more dangerous than automobiles or guns:
http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/07/16/gun-deaths-versus-car-deaths/?_r=0

And that is the numbers of known malpractice, not the people that die from the side effects of all the pharmaceuticals that were not mistakes. I'm guessing that is an even larger number...


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Uhhh, errrr...
Michael, I have seen you post similar things about insurance.

Given how unecessary and harmful insurance and medicine are in your eyes, it would seem to me that something like medical insurance for you and your family would be unwanted and unused?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Take this back to bees, pleese!

If we can learn from them, maybe that shows us the way to fix the rest. I'd start by having them teach us to work together.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

Phoebee said:


> Take this back to bees, pleese!
> 
> If we can learn from them, maybe that shows us the way to fix the rest. I'd start by having them teach us to work together.


It is bees. TF or Not TF is a essential point. Talking about humans going to doctors, but being TF beekeeper is a argument.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

If I were you I would do the TF from the beginning with 2 caveats:

1. As others have advised. Use TF stock from the start, either by re-queening or acquiring TF bees from the get-go.

2. Learn to make splits and queens so that you can spread the 'love' around locally, by selling or trading TF nucs and queens in your area. I think that's the future of TF beekeeping; groups of local beeks filling the area with strong bees.

Good luck whatever you do.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

enjambres said:


> Think about these points: Why do you want to be TF? What has persuaded you that it is a better way than treating? Exactly what is wrong with having treated colonies that are healthy, thriving and long-lived? That sure beats compromised, struggling, and dead, any day of the week.
> 
> Enj.


Except on those days when maintaining hospital bees perpetuates the problems. The days when the drones from the hospital bees impregnate promising feral and tf beekeeper queens and start the tortured process of condemning another colony to death. 

On those days you realise that 'healthy treated bees' is contradiction in terms. If they need treating they're not 'healthy'. 

Nature is stuffed full of 'compromised, struggling, and dead'. Its the process of winnowing out the less healthy that keeps the species alive and kicking. Period.

The day enough people put their own selfish interests aside in favour of a healthy bee population - or re-align their interests - will be the day that the systemic problem starts to lift.

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

jbeshearse said:


> The odds are stacked against you being successful in the treatment free arena.


The odds are not estimable until the following questions have been addressed and the results computed:

1) To what degree are your genetics self-sufficient?

2) To what degree is your local population self-sufficient?

3) To what degree can you influence your drone input?

The more you can give a high score to those questions; the higher the results multiply out... the greater will be your chances.

Think about it. Really - think about it lots. Think about natural selection for the fittest strains, and basic breeding for health. Understand that 'husbandry' means, first and foremost, the care of the genes down through the generations. 

If you can become at least a competent theoretical husbandryman you'll stand a chance of becoming a competent keeper of bees. Without that forget it. It isn't rocket science, but, unless the answer to 2) is 'very high' (and you are sensible enough to avoid package bees) you'll need to learn it.

Mike (UK)


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