# Air Staple Gun for Foundation Frames



## casper_zip (Apr 16, 2010)

Hey there:

I need help/info/input on a good, reasonable priced air staple gun. I am needing to put together my foundation frames. I am on a pretty tight budget, and this is an important consideration.

I see in Mann Lake catalog, that gun is really high priced for me. I also need a source for the staples, Mann Lake gun uses 3/8" x 1 1/2". 

Thanks a lot, and I'm awaiting on needed info. Been on internet and ebay looking, also. Want to make sure I get something as best as I can for the money.

Thanks in advance,

casper_zip


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Search...there are half a dozen recent treads on this. I use a Harbor Freight gun...made/fixed 75ish frames...made 15 lids/bottoms....a gazzuldle of nuc boxes etc. I get the staples from them...also get them at a local hardware store. 

MIke


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

If all you are using it for is to staple frames together you can use the cheapest 1/4" crown stapler you can find. I think I just saw one in the Northern Tool Catalog for $19.


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## daj4cy (Aug 31, 2009)

Don't know how much difference it makes but I prefer using a narrow crown stapler to a regular or wide crown version. Seems to work better on frames and not causing splits in the wood.


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

Interesting that you say that. I am using a 1/4" crown staple and was thinking of buying a bigger one.

You say the 1/4" works better re splitting etc huh?

My thought was that the larger crown would spread the impact out and provide the holding power over a wider area. 

I guess in my case it doesn't matter much as I glue everything too. The staple really only holds it until the glue dries. The glue provides the strength over the long term.

I've really only seen my frames come apart when they've been left out in the rain and submerged a couple days. Then they fall apart. Usually even if left out in the rain in the spare area, they eventually dry and are fine.


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## Bucksnort (Feb 6, 2011)

I bought this one a few weeks ago at Harbor Freight for $19 on sale:
http://www.harborfreight.com/18-gauge-1-4-quarter-inch-crown-air-stapler-97521.html
it also can be used for brad nails.

Watch and it will be on sale again.

I got 5000 1.5" staples for $15 at Harbor Freigh too.

I assembled 200 frames from Mann Lake with it, built 10 nucs, 5 SBB so far. You get what you pay for but for $20 and a 1 year warranty I'm pleased. I can see where a wider crown might be better but my I didnt ruin any of the 200 frames I put together and the holding power is incredible!


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## TripleH (Jun 5, 2010)

Hi,
I use staples that are chisel tip which helps to lessen splitting, also coated with a bit of adhesive that softens from the impact of driving through the wood which adds a bit to bonding and galvanized to lessen rusting. I also use a bit of Titebond III wood glue on the components.

I use a pneumatic Duo-Fast stapler and 18 gauge staples - 1/4" crown x 1 1/4" long for assembling frames. You have to watch where you place them but you'll get the hang of it after a bit.

Also using a jig, for assembling ten frames at a time, that I found here on Beesource. Just do a search. 

Best,
Tim


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Here is mine, I personally disagree with buying the cheapest, I like quality and like tools I can give to my kids someday, comes from being a mechanic for over 30 years I guess (Snap-on baby!!). It is 1/4".


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

comes from being a mechanic for over 30 years I guess (Snap-on baby!!). 

While we can argue over brands, having been a carpenter for 37 years,I've learned to buy quality, too. But if this guy wants to get up and running, just get the one in his budget and when it wears out and he's decided that it's a an indispensable tool, he can replace it with a good one. 
I have used the whole quality range of this tool including the $20 model and can assure you it shoots staples.


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

I use almost the same setup. My stapler is a Hitachi. I also use the Titebond III. The blue label in your pic is Titebond II I believe, which is probably just as good if not wet. 

I live in Florida where everything is wet in July and August, so I use Titebond III.

I also use the jig to assemble 10 at a time.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

I have the $20 brad nailer from Harbor freight and have used it for several years. I originally bought it for a trim job that I had. I use it for about everything that I've put together along with glue. It has worked very well. The only thing I wouldn't buy from Harbor freight again is the air fittings. They don't last at all IMO. 

As far as glue. . . Titebond 2 is waterproof. Once it's dry it's good to go. My reason. . . Regular titebond is stronger than the wood, Titebond 2 is stronger than "regualr" and 3 is stronger than 2, but also more money. I have used titebond 2 for everything in the hive that I've assembled or built. I want to waterproof, but not the expense. If whatever you're doing causes something to break check out the joint. If the glue failed find out why. I tried even getting plywood apart and couldn't w/o demolishing things. 

IMO I'd buy the harbor freight nailer again, and I glue everything that I can with Titebond 2.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Troy: I use titebond III these days which at Lowe's was the same price as II last time I purchased it.


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## jjt42 (Aug 24, 2010)

I use a Ridgid brad nailer...It's a nice tool with a lifetime warranty, and only $100 at Home Depot. I figure it's worth a little extra money for that warranty- I know I'll never have to buy another nailer again. (Plus it comes with a pack of brad nails, so figure that's worth at least $15).


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## LITTLE JOHN (May 16, 2010)

I use the Harbor Freight 1/4 inch stapler, pneumatic, with 1 1/2 inch resign coated staples that I buy at my local building supply. Sometimes they have the brass staples that are resign coated and when they do I buy about 30,000 of them. They are the best and never rust and I use them for much more than my hives or frames. The cost of the unit was $17 and they paid the freight. Yours might be a dollar or two more I get a big discount from them because I buy a lot of their products. I use elmer's ultimate glue. It is water proof and the wood breaks before it does. Haven't ever had a frame break or get loose with the coated staples and this glue. The glue requires that the surfaces have moisture to adhere. I dip my frame parts in water and let set for about 10 minutes before gluing and stapling. This softens the wood and I almost never have a split when I staple them and I staple through the ears also, top and bottom.

little john


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> I guess in my case it doesn't matter much as I glue everything too.


So why aren't you using a brad stapler?


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Acebird said:


> So why aren't you using a brad stapler?


Double your pleasure double your fun.....

There are air powered brad nailers and then there are air powered staplers but if you want to use the very best use a brad-stapler. This little beauty (harbor freight sells one too) shoots 18 gauge 1/4 inch staples and 18 gauge brad nails all from the same gun and without adjustments.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Old school here. Hammer and nails Elmer’s carpenters glue. I don’t leave frames uncovered in the rain. Inside the hive if it’s wet enough to make the glue come apart, it’s to wet for the bees. Same with boxes, if they are painted correctly the glue ain’t exposed to the weather. Inside the hive, if it’s so wet the joints come apart, it’s to wet for the bees. Water proof glue is a waste. I’m just saying.


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

I recently finished assembling about 6500 frames. Used the Bostitch narrow crown stapler as shown in NasalSponge's post. 1/4 x 1 1/4, 1/4 x 1 3/8 is also fine. I tried a cheapo stapler I got on sale at Menards and it literally wouldn't shoot staples without jamming. Returned it for a new Bostitch. 
Don't forget the cross-ways staple in each end of the top bar...but if you're using 1/4 x 1 1/2, the staple is too long and the tip of the staple will come out the top of the top bar. *If using new-style frames with the thinner top bar*. Stick to the sizes I mentioned in the first paragraph. 

If I was using glue I'd do what Jim Lyon recently mentioned...grab a handful of end bars and apply the glue to all of them at once before inserting in the jig (assuming you're using a jig...I sure would for any large number of frames).


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> This little beauty (harbor freight sells one too) shoots 18 gauge 1/4 inch staples and 18 gauge brad nails all from the same gun and without adjustments.


OK Shop Smith mentality. When you are interested in saving time you want dedicated tools so you are not changing and reloading all the time. Some contractors will load different size nails in multiple guns so you are avoiding this time loss problem. I can see where a hobbyist would lean towards the fits all.



> I dip my frame parts in water and let set for about 10 minutes before gluing and stapling. This softens the wood and I almost never have a split when I staple them and I staple through the ears also, top and bottom.


Two things: if the wood is wetter than ambient than it will shrink as it dries. That will tend to break the glue joint. Next is that the brad vs. the staple will not split the wood in the dry state because it has ½ the cross sectional area penetrating the wood. Since the brad / staple is only necessary for the time it takes the glue to cure you are better off using the brad and keeping the wood in the natural state, moisture wise.

Old School: rosin nails are good but they still have a larger cross section than a brad nailer. When we bought our first bee hive kit from BetterBee it came with nails. Even though the bottom cross bars were preslit the width of the nail spread out the bar on some of the frames enough to crack the outside edge of the sidebar.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Most people just soak the endbars...

This is not new.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Northern Tool has free shipping on all power tools. I just got this in my mail box this morning: 

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/[email protected]&state=KS&hotline=&market=

Here is one for $30: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200328526_200328526


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Nabber, that is an upholstery stapler, 9/16 is the largest staple that will shoot, too small to do frames.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> Most people just soak the endbars...
> 
> This is not new.


Maybe not. Why not just use green lumber? Skip the kiln drying and just mill and assemble, cut down on the cost.


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## timbo501 (Mar 13, 2011)

I used a brab nailer this year cause I blew a seal in my air stapler, it worked great. As for where to buy a new air stapler I saw one in home depot that was a staple/brad nailer that was pretty cheap $49 I believe. It would probably be perfect for assembling frames. Good luck, Tim


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## FarmerFrazier (Oct 12, 2010)

I will have to try soaking the frame first, I do occasionally cause a split or crack with my stapler.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I tried the 1/4 in staple on 60 frames yesterday with pretty good luck. For most of the frames I only used one staple between the two bottom board sticks and the side frame. Occasionally I would not get the staple centered and had to use another staple for the stick I didn't catch. I only had trouble with a couple of frames splitting but I have to say the quality of the wood from BetterBee is very good. the foundation I got is horrible. Many sheets were too short because they bent the wires into the first row of the wax. I don't understand why they don't keep that bend at least a 1/16 away from the wax. It is better to have the sheet too long then too short.


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## rgould (Apr 3, 2009)

If cost is a concern there are alot of good staplers and brad nailers in Pawn shops right now due to the down turn in the economy. Some will usually have an assortment of nails and brads with them and are usually in pretty good shape. Good Luck!


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

> I only used one staple between the two bottom board sticks and the side frame.


:scratch:

If frames are being discussed...

The "bottom board sticks" are called *Bottom Bars* and the "side frame" pieces are *End Bars*.


Concerning foundation:


> It is better to have the sheet too long then too short.


If foundation is too long it would require trimming to avoid bowing.

Trimming down wired foundation wouldn't be fun.


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

I use a Porter Cable 1/4" crown stapler and have used it for over 10 years. Not the least expensive or most expensive, but good quality I would say. I also use Titebond 3 to glue everything up before stapling. 

Someone previously said that Titebond 2 was waterproof. You may want to check on that. I thought the bottle said it was water resistant. Titebond 3 is the waterproof glue of choice for me because of this. If I get it on my fingers, it's time consuming to scrape it off, because the glue does not get soft again after drying. :doh:

Wisnewbee


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> If foundation is too long it would require trimming to avoid bowing.


Not so. There are two bottom bars not a groove. The sheet could be over 1/8 longer and still not stick out of the bottom. I don't glue at all. I ask the bees to do it.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

But there are bottom bars that are solid with a groove halfway into it. When I made mine, I didn't even put the groove in, just a solid piece of wood. Since I wire may frames and use only mediums, I cut a piece of deep foundation in half which leaves the foundation about a 1/2" short of the bottom bar. Not all bottom bars are a like.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Not all bottom bars are a like.


I understand that but I bought frames that have two bottom bars so the foundation can slip right through the bottom. If the foundation is to be used for both styles the wire could stop short by 1/2 inch and then you could easily trim it for grooved bottom bars. Anyways the issue is consistency. Only 5 of the sheets were too short and they were too short because the bend in the wires were into the first row of wax instead of just outside the wax like all the other sheets. It also broke off slivers of wax that ended up in sticking in the middle of the sheets that had to be picked off. Like I say the wooden parts were good quality but the foundation was slip shot.


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## Apiator (Apr 8, 2011)

Tools: 

I'm a carpenter. I cringe when I hear the words "Harbor Freight." It's really a symbol for all that is wrong in a disposable Walmart culture. Sure, their stuff works ok for the occasional DIY-er.

But I couldn't be a carpenter today if I hadn't been handed down tools from my dad, who bought quality tools. You will not hand down a $30 Chinese nail gun to your kids. Think about it. Hit a pawn shop and buy something used and decent for the same price.

That said... I just use an 18g brad nailer (Senco), since the narrow crown stapler I want someday is $200.  Its sole purpose is to hold the frame together til the glue dries. Which of course brings me to...

Glue:

That's what makes it hold together. Try using nails or staples without glue. You should be able to pull that frame apart with your hands quite easily. So what you use here just doesn't matter. You could even use a micro pinner.

Titebond 2 vs. 3: 3 is the waterproof, yes. Not necessary for frames. But it is nice when you're working on a lot of parts at once, assembly line fashion, because it has a somewhat longer open time. I chose it for that reason only.

If anyone is tempted to try Gorilla Glue... my advice is don't. It will bubble out of your joint kinda messy-like, and it's harder to clean. Wood glue excess just wipes off with a wet rag.





Acebird said:


> Two things: if the wood is wetter than ambient than it will shrink as it dries. That will tend to break the glue joint.


Actually... it will break the wood near the glue joint.  It's generally pine we're talking about here... glue is stronger than pine.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Apiator said:


> I'm a carpenter.


Same here. 



> Its sole purpose is to hold the frame together til the glue dries. Which of course brings me to...
> 
> Glue:
> 
> That's what makes it hold together. Try using nails or staples without glue.


Try convincing engineers that a house put together with just glue will hold together just as well as one that uses no glue and nails only! I think your overstating the capabilities of glue in this instance. Using just glue when joining long grain to long grain is one thing, but joining end grain to long grain is quite another matter. With frames you encounter both types, so nails (used in the appropriate manner) do add additional strength. In fact, one could nail frames together in such a way that it would be stronger than any glue job, but that would be too time consuming.

In my opinion, do both.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Yeah, what makes me cringe is hearing "the nails are just to hold the joint together until the glue dries..." Nails/glue is intended to be a redundant system. A very good system, but I've seen an awful lot of glue joints fail, for one reason or another.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Actually... it will break the wood near the glue joint. It's generally pine we're talking about here... glue is stronger than pine.


Yes you are correct. Which is why I don't use glue. A staple is stronger than the glue for most of the small area joints. If you take a wooden chair with perfectly milled joints and leave it outside like a bee hive it will break apart in one year. The hive doesn't because it has a thousand little workers that seal up all the cracks.

The problem with name brand tools today is they are all made in China. My father was a carpenter for forty years and I learned from him from the age of seven. I have not only his tools but tools he was handed down. Problem is most are obsolete now. Nobody uses a miter box and back saw today. So no matter how good it is all it is today is a memory.
I bought Porter Cable, three guns a compressor plus accessories some where near $250 if I remember right. Then I bought a framing nailer for another $200. Is it a quality name brand? I don't know it is an old name and they work good.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> A very good system, but I've seen an awful lot of glue joints fail, for one reason or another.


Once the glue joint fails you are held together by the nail. As long as the glue is intact the nail is not under any load hence "the nail is there until the glue cures". If the glue alone is not adequate to sustain the integrity of the joint then there is no point in using it. A wood glue joint is 100% dependant on controlling the moisture of the wood. If you cannot maintain the moisture content of the wood then don't kid yourself using a hard curing glue. You would be further ahead by using a rubberized bonding agent like GE Silicone. If that is your plan then the joints should be loose fitting not tight fitting like what I experienced with BetterBee products.
There are many structural engineered products in the construction industry that are just held together by glues and adhesives. My concern on the use of these products would be flooding. It would be a monumental task to replace the bottom floor of a multistory building after a flood.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

> You would be further ahead by using a rubberized bonding agent like GE Silicone.


This is an original idea...

I would consider silicone to be an average sealant but would never use it as a "bonding agent" for frame assembly.

I don't believe new beekeepers should be encouraged to use GE, or any other silicone for woodenware assembly.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> I don't believe new beekeepers should be encouraged to use GE, or any other silicone for woodenware assembly.


If you were reading my posts I don't think they should use any bonding agent either but if you are going to glue the joints silicone will work better (for a bee hive) exposed to major swings in moisture.



> I would consider silicone to be an average sealant but would never use it as a "bonding agent" for frame assembly.


It will glue metal, wood, glass, plastic, ceramic, concrete, paper, leather, and fabric under the most extreme conditions and doesn't degrade for a very long time. It fills gaps and for a butt joint it will not only seal the end grain it will bond to it very successfully. So what is your beef? 

Some people think outside the box.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

For "extreme conditions" a polysulfide would be better, but I wouldn't use that inside a beehive either...


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