# would you rob your bees without a veil?



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

_
Many of the stings were to his face._
http://www.sanluisobispo.com/2010/08/25/1263788/beekeeper-expected-to-recover.html


----------



## AltamontBee (Mar 26, 2008)

No, no I wouldn't. An ounce of prevention.....


----------



## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

I never work my hives without a veil, PERIOD! You never know when they will get very defensive smoke or no smoke.

I wonder about the "collect honey from the bees Tuesday night." part. My bees won't let you work them an hour before sunset. I learned that the hard way. I got stung a few times though the jacket but I would have been stung 100's without protection. I can't even check the feeder close to dusk.

One thing I am learning this year is how to read the bees better. Their attitude can change in seconds.

I am glad the guy will be ok!


----------



## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

The good thing is that bees are safer to keep then goats.

http://www.sanluisobispo.com/2010/0...-dies-of-goat-attack.html#storylink=mirelated

"Officials say an 88-year-old man died a week after a goat attacked him outside his home in northern Georgia"

Crazy huh??!!


----------



## Klaus (Apr 24, 2008)

Sometime stupid is hard to explain.....:doh:


----------



## beekeeper1756 (Mar 20, 2010)

only if I had a death wish...:no:


----------



## Lauren (Jun 10, 2010)

My favorite quote from my dad: "If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough."


Words that I seem to live by.


----------



## bbbbeeman (Jan 13, 2007)

well I dont know what you'all do to the bees but I only use a vail if I have to,I rob, do cut-outs , and work my bees without a veil. when the wend is blowing ,early or late in the day is not the time to do anything withthem. but maybe this 70 year old man knows when and how to work them. good luck rock.


----------



## frysl (Mar 31, 2009)

As long as I'm not doing so around dusk or an overcast day, I don't bother.
The only time I wear a veil is if I am going way deep into the hive, and that is only because the chances of accidently crushing a bee (there-by sending out the alarm) go way up. :banana:


----------



## beekeeper1 (Jan 31, 2010)

A good way to keep your genetics out of the gene pool!


----------



## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

depends on the mood of the bees. but yes i do.


----------



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

No!, I use a veil. I may be nuts, but I am not crazy.

Roland


----------



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

I dont work bees w/out a veil. Might pop some tops for look, but if im getting into the hives and pulling frames a veil is in order. A sting to the eye can cause long term damage :no:


----------



## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

After taking a couple to the face, I figured it out! Bees are an unpridectable insect, they don't leave a don't disturb sign on the hive when they have just fought off a couple wasps or maybe just the wind is blowing the wrong way. Anybody that gets into a hive w/o a veil is just plain nuts.
I'll watch the landing boards or lift the top to check the syrup, but that's it.


----------



## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

I won't go into my bees at all without a veil. 99.9% of the time it's not needed, but that .1% will mess you up bad if you don't take precautions for it the rest of the time.


----------



## IABeeMan (Aug 19, 2007)

I grew up learning from my father who I can not remember seeing him in a veil for years. We were adding supers one day and per normal he was in his bib overalls and no gloves, veil, he did have a smoker "in case". A bee was sitting on the ear piece of his glasses and out of know where it stung him in the corner of his eye on the actual eyeball. as a result he lost his vision in that eye. By the time the sting was done we grabbed the smoker and avoided any aditional stings but it only took the one to put a real damper on the rest of his life.

Is it really to much work to put a veil on to avoid that freak accident that you might have to dealwith for the rest of your life?


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Freak accidents happen, no matter what precautions we take to anticipate them. The trick is to take what life gives you and keep moving forward. Sometimes you may need to crawl, and sometimes you may need to run, but you should always keep moving forward.


----------



## TGCIII (May 30, 2010)

there is an answer to all our questions about life. Joe just said it! the epitome of life is moving forward...period:scratch:


----------



## TGCIII (May 30, 2010)

no sarcasm intended! things just got real clear for a minute


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

TGCIII said:


> there is an answer to all our questions about life. Joe just said it! the epitome of life is moving forward...period


Is that moving forward with a veil or without?

Wayne


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

This is why learning bee behavior is so very important. I am one of those who only wears hat/veil when they give me a reason to, which isn't very often at all.

Most of the time I wear protection is to do cutouts, etc.. when I know I'm about to agitate them.

knowing the types of weather, times of day and other local conditions and working at the optimal times will go a long way to making working with bees much more relaxed.

at least that's the way it is for me.

Big Bear


----------



## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Earlier this year I was one to brag about working with my bees with out much protection. That was when I had three hives. Now I have 8 and when I go to the beeyard I don't have as much leisure time. While I am not saying I was wrong before, conditions change and so does the bees attitudes.
The only people working the bees without protection are the ones destined to be maybe the next headline. Don't be foolish and be brave when in actuallity you are being unwise.
I hardly ever wore gloves when working my bees, but this year I got tired of my fingers being swollen so I bought a pair of goatskin vented gloves which I now wear any time I am disrupting the hive. Oh and I also with the gloves wear my hooded jacket. Now if I'm only feeding or taking off the top to look I will still be unwise and not wear anything. People they are just bees and they are designed by nature to sting.
I can't brag anymore about being unwise, but now I'm not going to be a statistic.:no:


----------



## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

rwlaw said:


> After taking a couple to the face, I figured it out! Bees are an unpridectable insect, they don't leave a don't disturb sign on the hive when they have just fought off a couple wasps or maybe just the wind is blowing the wrong way. Anybody that gets into a hive w/o a veil is just plain nuts.
> I'll watch the landing boards or lift the top to check the syrup, but that's it.


I used to watch landing boards without a veil until one day when I got popped. Never again. If I'm doing absolutely anything having to do with a hive, I've got my veil on. So I now agree, Anybody that gets into a hive w/o a veil is just plain nuts.


----------



## honeybeekeeper (Mar 3, 2010)

First thing that comes to my mind was that article i read a few mths ago about the beekeeper that was killed by his own bees. He was a beekeeper for the longest time and one day he decided to check on his bees and he decided not to wear any protection. Just goes to show ya it doesnt matter how long you have been a beekeeper, "it just takes that one time"!
I wear my protection and there has been approx 5 different occasions that i was glad i was wearing protection. specially the one time i grabbed a colapsed brood comb in my TBH...They didnt like it and there was flyers every where soon as i lifted the comb up out of the TBH..several bees smacked the veil i was wearing and the thought of not wearing a veil is just crazy!!....I say for the person who doesnt wear protection, it just takes that one bee to sting and the rest will follow!!


----------



## Growing Boy (Jan 28, 2009)

It really all depends on a number of factors. Sometimes you have to go in under less than ideal conditions and do some heavy labor. Gear up and pack that smoker full. Sometimes everything is beautiful. A little smoke and a veil.
I can stand a couple of feet away from the hive and watch the landing board for hours with no problems as long as I'm on one side or the other. They don't even know I'm there. Get in their flight paths coming or going and you're on their radar. Watch out.


----------



## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

Its like wearing a seat belt. I have driven hundreds of thousands of miles in my life and only once needed a seat belt. The day before I rolled the van in the snow multiple times I could have bragged that I hadn't had an accident in 30 years of driving all over the world in sun, rain, snow, ice, thunderstorms, etc so why bother. If myself and family had not had our belts on that day we would all be fertizing the dandelions. I am way past the maucho bragging faze of my life.


----------



## Fogducker (May 6, 2010)

A while back I got stung near my eye out board of the eye brow no less, my eye swelled up for three days at least. It was my fault, I took off an inner cover and a ventilated top cover, put them in my wheel barrow after looking them over and proceeded up to my garage after taking off my veil etc. When I was unloading my stuff, there were about 10 of the girls that were under the cover and really pissed------I leave those things down by the hive now and pick them up later!

Fog


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I do as much work as possible without a veil and gloves. We pulled honey a few weeks ago, one pair of gloves short for the crew. When I pulled honey from a brood chamber, the last hive went ballistic. After about ten stings to the hand I let my helper finish. My hand didn't work for a week and now I have a good case of Blackberry thumb, possibly from the over dose of venom. :thumbsup:


----------



## Cactii (Sep 5, 2009)

odfrank said:


> My hand didn't work for a week and now I have a good case of Blackberry thumb, possibly from the over dose of venom.


I'd say you're overdoing it on the arthritis treatment. Relax, take your time, a sting a week should be sufficient.


----------



## chandler (May 28, 2009)

alpha6 said:


> The good thing is that bees are safer to keep then goats.
> 
> http://www.sanluisobispo.com/2010/0...-dies-of-goat-attack.html#storylink=mirelated
> 
> ...


wow... I have goats and bees. Never been harmed by either.

I don't keep bucks though. They can be a PITA and mean. Same thing with hives. I don't keep hot hives.


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

My practice is similar to bigbearomaha; I keep a veil nearby and only use it when it seems necessary, which lately has been rarely.


----------



## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Mr. Clemens,
I would say that with your adress that it would be safe to guess that you have pretty predictable weather. Hot and dry. which is ideal bee working weather.
In Ky. the saying is if you don't like weather stay 5 minutes and it will change. While it is not hardly that bad it can change quickly. Which means imo it nis best for me to just slip my hooded veil jacket on and slip on my gloves. Never had it as bad as odfrank but when working them I will have all this on. Bet he will to from now on.


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Several times through the years, I've gotten attacked fairly vigorously by honey bees, usually someone else's bees, but sometimes my own. I've been fortunate that even one hundred or more stings usually produce very little obvious reaction after a few minutes and I've never been stung where it caused complications. I guess that matters in the long run, but it would be nice if tolerance to bee stings included keeping them from hurting me so much the moment they are inserted into my flesh. I am much more annoyed by flies crawling on my skin than I am by honey bees doing the same.

If I get a few stings in the nostrils, I'll usually put on a had and drape my veil over my head, at least, until the next time I inspect.


----------



## TGCIII (May 30, 2010)

waynesgarden said:


> Is that moving forward with a veil or without?
> 
> Wayne
> 
> It don't matter with or without anything. Forward movement is the key to .....everything. If I get eat up enough times but continue to move forward I'm, at some point, gonna get tired of *swelling up* and garnish myself appropriately, right? Insanity is doing something the same way everytime but expecting a different outcome. It just aint gonna happen. Thanks for that moment of clarity, Mr. Clemens.


----------



## bbbbeeman (Jan 13, 2007)

as I stated earlyer I dont use a veil unless I just have to . if you have gloves on you dont know if you were stung, and the alarm odor will set the bees off, with nogloves or veil I pull the stinger out and put liquid smoke on it.<liquid smoke is in the store you put on stakes ,one small bottle will make a qt by adding water>.my helper liked the veil and gloves but I sprayed liquid on his hand and head 3 or 4 times and now he dont use them eather ,in the summer time its just to hot in the middle of the day, and that is the best time to work them. good luck rock.


----------



## beekeeper_sd (Oct 30, 2008)

would you got into shark infested waters without a shark cage?


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

sure why not, they can only kill me once


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

Ya can"t fix stupid " Ron White."


----------



## bbbbeeman (Jan 13, 2007)

I may be stupid or do I know how to work bees on a hot day with sweat running down your head,back ,and legs from all the stuff I have on. when you work a hive , you dont stay in there all day, the bees get angry .I was tough how to work bee by an old mountain manback in 1959 and it took a few months to become totaly unafraid. If you are afraid you emit an order of adrenalin .animals and insects can smell it .I have tought other to work bee as I do and I tell them it takes time to get use to the bees and work slowly but deliberatelywhen you go in a hive .if a hive is hot there is a reason a good beek will fix that. I will not have a hot or mean hive, If I cant see what is makeing them mean I will requeen it.I love working my bees in a short sleaved shirt and pants. it cool. good luck rock.


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Oldtimer,
I can't count how many times I've gone over to help another beekeeper's to help them with their "hot" hives. I drape a veil over my head, just in case. Then, when the bees seem as gentle as declawed kittens, they usually exclaim that I'm doing it differently and perhaps that is the reason.


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

ditto oldtimer. You got it all in one post.

Big Bear


----------



## 10hive (Aug 28, 2008)

I don't open any hive without a veil, nor do I get out of the car at a strangers house if i see a doberman in the yard.


----------



## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

IMO anyone who works without a veil is just plain [careless]! I've been working bees commercially since the late 50's and have never known a commercial beek who worked veiless. One sting to an eyeball pretty much changes the rest of your life. Bees hate CO2 and guess what your breath is composed of. They virtually always go for a head sting if given the chance. I work all year in shorts and tee shirt and a VEIL. You don't have to be in the hive to catch a face or head sting; Thurs. I got out of my truck 30 ft from any hive and immediately got stung in the eyebrow over my left eye. How much time do you lose by putting on a veil? Maybe 15-20 seconds? And yes, I did say [CARELESS]. :doh:


----------



## Cactii (Sep 5, 2009)

I started working my hive with just a veil, but no gloves. Bees around my head drive me nuts and make me nervous.

I've only ever been stung once while I was in my hive without gloves. One day I went to do some real work inside my hive and I knew the bees were going to be really mad about me doing it - I suited up really good. I felt a lot more comfortable and sure of myself while working the girls while I was suited up, so I decided I'll wear some nice, soft leather gloves while working my hive.

I have nothing to prove to anybody, and wearing a veil and gloves makes me feel more comfortable while I'm working.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

We all do foolish things now and then and opening a hive without a veil is foolish. And yes, I've done it. No, I don't recommend it.


----------



## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

I've cracked the lid without a hood just for a quick look inside, I have also pulled my mason jar feeder off the top of the hive to do a quick refill with no problems. But if I am going to actually open the hive and pull frames and what not, no way. Geared up. Trying to prove you're not scared or that "you're a man" can result in bad, bad things. My biggest concern is my eyesite. Take a sting in the eye sounds dangerous and personally, I like to see.

C2


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

it's good to see all of the judgmental people out. I have no problem with you having your opinion that something is safer or is more comfortable for you. you have your own experiences and observations to base your opinions on. but they are only that.opinions.

to make general referral to other people as careless or foolish, well, I disagree with you and I wouldn't do the same to you simply because my opinion is different than yours.

I see so many people who, for example, say one thing is bad or foolish, perhaps drunk driving, then will turn around and talk on a cell phone the entire time they are driving. very distracted and narrowly escaping who knows how many possible accidents just because they were paying attention to the phone instead of driving.

Others might say that person who condemns drunk driving but drives while on a phone is a hypocrite. distracted, impaired driving is dangerous, regardless of drinking or cell phones.

I myself think it's just better to leave the judgments out of the discussion and simply express your own preferences.

If you don't like to go without a hat and veil and a suit of moon armor, i can appreciate your opinion, I may not agree with it, but I sure won't be calling you names or thinking less of you as a beekeeper because of it.

My experiences over the past about 4 years of working in a 400 plus hive honey production bee yard and now my own conservation bee yards have led me to the opinion that with careful attention to the bees behavior, environmental factors such as weather conditions using careful, fluid and (hopefully) 'graceful' movement when handling frames and top bars, working with no protection such as a hat/veil/suit/jacket/gloves/etc... is definitely a doable thing for me. As a matter of fact, I find it preferable, stings included.

I also don't think of it as "proving" anything to anyone by not using that gear. matter of fact, I am not thinking or caring, about whatever someone else is thinking at all. Except maybe the bees, I definitely am thinking of being careful to keep them un-agitated.

I have taken my share of stings, especially when I found I wasn't being very 'graceful', and stings are going to happen whether one is all suited up or not. It's part of being a beekeeper. I accept that and keep on going.

To all of those who find it so easy to be negative, critical and judgmental of others who don't share your fears and opinions, I say only to you...

enjoy the bees.

Big Bear


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Hey hey hey, such talk about careless, reckless, stupid, or foolish. This coming from people, like me, who intentionally spend some or most of their time playing with large numbers of flying insects that can sting and potentiality cause injury, or even death. :lookout: Now isn't that like the pot calling the kettle, black?

Most of the time I choose to go without protective gear, including a veil, when working my bees, for several reasons; 1) It's much more likely i'll suffer from dehydration, heat prostration, or heat stroke, than from an accidental sting to my eye; 2) I'm diabetic and am even more sensitive to dehydration and overheating than a non-diabetic would be; 3) I have no reaction to bee stings, other than the initial painful burning sensation, when the sting penetrates my skin.

Besides, with my old eyes, a veil makes it almost impossible to see eggs, intrinsically making examinations take longer.

Sounds to me like maybe some beekeepers could use a gentler strain of honey bee. I used to have similar difficulties with the bees I used to keep, then I always wore a veil with my shorts and T-shirt.


----------



## madasafish (Aug 24, 2010)

I'm a new beekeeper this year. I am happy to work without gloves or smoke,,( a water spray instead) - but I value my good looks (!!!) and my eyesight too much not to wear a full jacket and veil .

Every time - even if it's just to replenish an in frame feeder in a TBH - I put on a jacket and veil.

For observations, nothing. But this is summer/early autumn and my bees are good natured and obviously so.. If they start attacking me within 10 metres of the hive, I'll suit up. (Had that happen at another apiary and was stung on my neck despite a suit ).

I can live with stings on my hands and legs but face and neck ? Nope.


----------



## Cactii (Sep 5, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> But I've now got a lifetime of experience.


I don't think that you can claim that until... Well... Until it's over.

Just a technicality in accuracy.


----------



## madasafish (Aug 24, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Without smoker?
> 
> Not a good plan.
> 
> ...


----------



## Cactii (Sep 5, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> But then, technically and all speaking, I've got to wonder.... Is my lifetime so far, my lifetime? The one I've had?


Philosophy in a beekeeping forum - have to love it!

You've also made an excellent point. In that situation though, a 1 minute old baby could claim a 'lifetime' of experience in beekeeping without having ever yet seen a bee.

Technically...


----------



## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Yes, I rob my bees without a veil. For those who think this is stupid, you have a lot to learn about bee behavior. Once you learn more you too will know when you should, and when you don't have to. 

Like a respected author once said and I paraphrase: If you always suit up to work your bees you do not have to learn to be gentle, slow, and respectful to them because there is no consequence if you are not.


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

Just because ya wear a veil doesn’t mean ya don’t know how to be gentle when ya work your bees. Just like not wearing a veil doesn’t mean you are gentle when ya work your bees. What did I say??? I wear a helmet when I ride a motorcycle. I have life jackets in a boat when I go out on the water. I keep a flashlight in me truck and a spare tire. It’s called common sense. Didn’t mean to call anyone stupid.  I’m gentle so as not to kill the bees it’s not about getting stung per say, for me anyway. I guess it’s to no a veil anyway.


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> It’s called common sense.


no, those things are called being prepared. other folks would say "common sense" is knowing to come in out of the rain. Don't put your hand on a hot stove, things like that.

If someone has never had a boat before, they won't have that knowledge till they learn it. not common sense, it's acquired information.

touch that hot pan once (for most folks) common sense kicks in and tells you not to do it ever again.

all too often, people think in a vacuum. They are aware of what they know and have learned and assume it is the same knowledge everyone else has and think of it as common sense. when we can actually see and think beyond our personal experiences, we begin to understand how diverse the world of other people can be and be less judgmental.

my range of beekeeping experiences vary from yours, so my perspective of what is "common sense" will also vary as well. What I think of as "common sense" with bees is learning how weather and time of day and bee biology and behavior as well as how gentle I handle the top bars all comes together in my determining if I need to wear protection or not.

it's education plus experience plus a touch of personal choice thrown in (level of risk I am willing to take on myself). 

taking that into consideration, I hardly think it appropriate to say someone employing all those factors is being "foolish" or 'stupid" or lacks "common sense".

The very fact that you ride a motorcycle, helmet and jacket or not is something many people would consider "foolish" and lacking of "common sense" as well. You feel you have educated yourself and using your experience and willingness to assess and accept the risks, you would hardly consider yourself any of those things in regards to riding a motorcycle.

(I myself ride bikes, so I wouldn't make that judgment on you either, again back to the pot calling the kettle black).

Take a chill pill people and accept that sometimes different people make different choices and we can still all get along without condemnation.

Big Bear


----------



## bbbbeeman (Jan 13, 2007)

well said big bear, as I stated earlyer, I teach new beeks to work with out all that protection.they start out with every thing on ,but lose it one peace at a time some keep the veil and that is fine,some keep the gloves, but all in all we need to know our bees and why a hive is hot or if we made them so.I have been stung on the eyelid,I saw the bee and closed my eye .we blink faster than a bee can fly , but enough said to each his on,smoke I use a little on the hive before i work it if they start to get fussey before i am done i use a little more,know your bees not every hive is alike .some of the girl are so sweet and some are like my mother inlaw.good luck rock.


----------



## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Sorry. I'm with Mac. I wear a veil because I want to be at ease as I work the girls. I hate being stung in the face because I am vain and don't like to have skin swollen or sagging as I go about my daily routine. I use smoke not only because it calms the girls but also because it masks alarm pheromone--a major attractant to shb. When I mentor, all my mentees comment on how gentle I am with the bees--as opposed to others they've worked with. If you don't want to wear a veil, fine. But please don't criticize those of us who do.


----------



## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

I in no way wish to criticize anyone who chooses to wear protection, I was simply answering the thread question and responding to several of the posts which called folks who don't stupid. Below is a picture of what I wear when I work my bees and I assure you I am totally at ease. BTW no where in my post does it say "if you wear a veil you are not gentle with your bees".


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I too, in no way am saying, or trying to imply, that wearing protective gear while beekeeping is harmful or unnecessary. It is a matter of personal preference, only. We all take chances everyday, just being alive and in this world puts us all at risk of serious injury or even death. How we each manage to avoid injury and death is also a matter of personal preference. There are pros and cons with just about every option in beekeeping and in life.

When I'm not wearing a veil, I find that I sometimes get a sting in a nostril, but usually only an occasional sting on my fingers where my carefully placed and gentle fingers aren't quick enough or sensitive enough to avoid pinching or squishing an inquisitive bee.

I am always a little sad when a bee dies an untimely death, especially queens that need euthanized for husbandry reasons.


----------



## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Thx but no not my son, he was the grandson of someone my wife knows.


----------



## Cactii (Sep 5, 2009)

Are we all going to have a group hug now?


----------



## Ishi (Sep 27, 2005)

Just pulled honey from 3 yards of 10 - 15 hives. Used a veil and jacket on 1 yard, have 1 more yard of 10 hives yet to do. I will start out without a veil but if they start to challenge me on the jacket with veil will go.


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

NasalSponge said:


> Yes, I rob my bees without a veil. For those who think this is stupid, you have a lot to learn about bee behavior. Once you learn more you too will know when you should, and when you don't have to.
> 
> Like a respected author once said and I paraphrase: If you always suit up to work your bees you do not have to learn to be gentle, slow, and respectful to them because there is no consequence if you are not.



This IMPLIES ya don’t really know how to work bees. Wearing a veil makes ya less gentle. I don't think not wearing a veil when robbing is stupid maybe less prudent I think in my previous post the appropriate word should have been prudent. Dressing that kid in protective gear is prudent and makes common sense.Not dressing the kid in gear would be stupid.
“Touch that hot pan once (for most folks) common sense kicks in and tells you not to do it ever again.” That’s acquired information. Common sense after the fact.
Who stirred up this hornet’s nest anyway? :lookout:


----------



## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Love the photo, NasalSponge. We need to recruit more young beekeepers. . .and there's no such thing as too young!


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

we're human Mac, all of our information is acquired. it's the relevancy that makes it "common sense" or not.

what is the likelihood of people touching a hot pan or stove, pretty good at some point in their life, it's a 'common' happening, making what we learn from it "common sense'. and there are folks who go out and put on bee beards, how often is that to happen in any one persons experience? not too often, so it is up to that individuals education, experience and willingness to take risk that determines if and how they should do it, common sense has nothing to do with it the same goes for beekeeping in general. how common is it that the every-person is going to open a bee hive? not very. it is information and experience combined with willingness to accept risk.

how common is it to end up outside when it starts raining, see where this is going?

again, it boils down to information that is likely to be experienced at some point by just about everyone and is usually pretty easily learned.

people are too easy too dismiss others by the lame excuse of not having 'common sense' when they are just trying to put down someone for doing something they don't agree with.

if that's the case, just going out there to play with bees would violate 'common sense' regardless of protection or not.

In terms of that photo and situation with kid all in gear, my own kids are 9 and 11, they have protective gear to use at their choosing. as they have gained in experience, both have chosen to not wear the gear in the appropriate situations. They have seen me take my lumps in situations and are aware of the situations and risks, I don't baby them, I let them learn by doing and making educated decisions.

I would guess you might dis-agree, but that's ok.

I would venture to say my kids are better educated about bee behavior and handling than many adults. They know when to get the gear, they don't bother to wait for me when they see it's needed, they go straight for it. When they think it's needed, based on what they have learned and seen and done.

I am very proud of my kids in their interest to take up after the old bear in working with bees and in their quick grasp of learning and making good decisions when doing it.

once again I say,

enjoy the bees.

Big Bear


----------



## trainwrecker (May 23, 2010)

my 11yr old daughter and i work the bees often with nothing but we always have it handy. if anyone gets stung it is i. in a hurry and big handed. when i do get stung the daughters say "well, you did squash her". and you know their correct.


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

how about "rent collecting"?

Big Bear


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

I like rent collecting. However, I'd rather drop a cranky honey badger in my pants than work bees withot a veil. I work them without gloves so I'm not afraid of getting stung but taking one in the face is simply unacceptable. It hurts and you look stupid for at least 3 days. Collecting rent without a veil is simply tempting fate. You may get away with it a few times but you'll eventually get hit such that you'll realize it's simply foolish.


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

and thanks for sharing your opinion.

Big Bear


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

NasalSponge said:


> Like a respected author once said and I paraphrase: If you always suit up to work your bees you do not have to learn to be gentle, slow, and respectful to them because there is no consequence if you are not.


Your "respected" author is wrong if he or she believes that those who wear protective gear do not respect the bees or are gentle with them. Even with the protective equipment, I've learned to be gentle, slow and respectful. Any new beekeepers I work with learn those exact same values and to always wear protective gear as they start out, especially if they are working in my hives.


I work slowly, am as gentle as I can be and have nothing but respect for these wonderous insects. I sometimes don't wear gloves and even being as gentle as I can be (like today) I was stung on the hand. But I _always _wear a veil and have yet to be stung in the eye. I likely will never get stung in the eye while working bees as long as I take a second to throw on a veil. My slowness, gentleness and respect do not prevent the occasional bee from feeling threatened.

I'd like to know who your cynical "respected" author is because he or she has gotten it wrong if you are paraphrasing accurately. One can and should learn all the desired traits of working with bees, even when dressed in full body armor, hazmat suit and bee veil. One thing has _absolutely nothing _to do with the other, despite the views of your "respected" author.

Wayne


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

IABeeMan said:


> I grew up learning from my father who I can not remember seeing him in a veil for years. ...A bee was sitting on the ear piece of his glasses and out of know where it stung him in the corner of his eye on the actual eyeball. as a result he lost his vision in that eye.


Worth repeating.

I know I am not immune to these freak accidents. Maybe there are some here who are. Hooray for them.

Wayne


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

nobody said they were immune to them, but like you just said, they are "freak accidents".

I have seen people stung in the face and in many other places through a bee suit and veil because of tightness, slippage, etc.. the suit is no guarantee against a "freak accident".

regardless of protection wearing or not, it is always good advice to learn bee behavior, how weather and other environmental situations affect bees, timing etc. Nothing can beat or take the place of education and first hand experience. whether you're suited up like a moon man or nekkid as a jaybird.

each person takes the level of risk they feel they are willing to take.

Big Bear


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

bigbearomaha said:


> we're human Mac, all of our information is acquired.
> how common is it to end up outside when it starts raining, see where this is going?.



Try staying outside in the rain sometime ya might like it.


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

I never said "I" was someone with 'common sense".. I just know what it is when I see it, then I proceed to ignore it. heh heh.

Big Bear


----------



## beecuz (Apr 14, 2010)

I was stung on the eyelid last fall when the inspector came out to check my hives. I was a new beek and was standing, unsuited, about 15 - 20 feet in front of the hives watching the inspector go through the hives when I got tagged. Of course I never stand in front of the hives now. I always approach the hives from the side and move slowly...and I always check them out for a few minutes to see how calm they are. If I am just changing the top feeder, I still always bring smoke though I don't always suit up (no veil or gloves). I puff in a little smoke under the feeder and wait a minute...then peek under the lid to see if they have all "gone downstairs" before I switch feeder jars. If they are not calm when I first approach them...I either suit up or wait til later. But if I am OPENING the hive I ALWAYS suit up totally...keeps me feeling secure and I can take my time working slowly and gently. Don't like stings.


----------



## wildflowerlanehoney (Aug 17, 2010)

i don't care who you are, bee stings hurt. why chance it with no protection?


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Because being stung, even on my face, nostrils, or eyes, though momentarily painful, is much less annoying than having sweat dripping down my face, into my eyes, etc. Salty sweat hurts my eyes much more than the momentary uncomfortableness of a few stings, which happens rarely. The sweating always happens when wearing a hat and veil.


----------



## mrspock (Feb 1, 2010)

beemandan said:


> _
> Many of the stings were to his face._
> http://www.sanluisobispo.com/2010/08/25/1263788/beekeeper-expected-to-recover.html


I would, and have just done so. We are in dearth, and I did it on an overcase, chilly day. Harvested two medium supers. 

I was stung ~30 times. Most of the stings were trapped bees up my shirt (Yes, I forgot to tuck), or on my hands/fingers due to bad hand placement, or otherwise clearly my fault. The only head sting was to my lip.

I have little or no reaction to most stings - Even the lip sting was unnoticeable in 2 hours. I mostly don't like face stings because they make me look like a thug.

In general, most of the stings could be attributed to my own haste, as there was danger of rain, and I wasn't moving as slowly as I would have liked. Had the day been clearer, I'm sure I would hardly have been stung at all.


----------



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Because being stung, even on my face, nostrils, or eyes, though momentarily painful, is much less annoying than having sweat dripping down my face, into my eyes, etc. Salty sweat hurts my eyes much more than the momentary uncomfortableness of a few stings, which happens rarely. The sweating always happens when wearing a hat and veil.


a $2.00 sweatband solves this problem. Actually having several of them and switching them throughout the day works great. As hot as it is here in FL I started this year wearing sweatband on my wrists too as the sweat starts running down my arms and makes pulling and holding frames a bit awkward. Helps a lot to keep dry hands.


----------



## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I have been reading the post here and haven't posted since early on. Waynesgarden has my sentiments exactly. I am not immune to freak accidents. So I will still suit up when going into the hive to take apart anything. 
Bear, you mentioned earlyon about riding a motorcycle. After several years of not riding one, after I retired I bought one in August of 2006, and the wife and I were really enjoying it. For over 2 years we rode several miles, around 7000 miles in this time. I traded the first one and bought a larger one in August of 2008, because I felt comfortable riding. On October 21st 2008 it was a 55 degree day with sunshine. I was riding to do a favor for a friend and got behind a tractor & trailer that was running 45 miles an hour. After about 4 miles of him jerking me all over the road we got to an about 2 mile long straight strech. I pulled out to check if anything was coming, and it was clear. I downshifted my 1600 and laid the ears back, about 1/2 way around him a car turned left out from in front of him. I laid it down and you can figure the rest. I still today have lingering effects from this. The hide has all grown back, my knees are still purple, my rib still is torn loose and pops around inside. I don't know how, there was nothing broke, just lots of bruising and scrapes. I had a helmet and a leather jacket on is the reason I'm still here and able to type this. There were cars behind me and they all said that they didn't know the car was in front of him. It totaled the bike and the car. 
So , my point being I know freak accidents can happen. So yes I will go around, feed, check, I will even still raise the top up if they are calm. But no I will not take a chance because it is just not worth it, and with my hooded veil slipover jacket I can be ready in about 15 seconds.
If I am sweating all I have to do is reach up and wipe the sweat with the veil as it is very flexible.


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

and I have no problem with that. You are free to do as you wish, being cautious, overly cautious, under-cautious, however you feel about approaching it.

I am only saying is you're determination of risk assessment is not the same as mine.

I do not judge you for your methods, all I ask is not to be judged for mine.

the fact that you had an accident on a motorcycle and lived after an accident only exemplifies that you knew the risks of that happening and you accepted them. 

helmet and jacket are no guarantees.

just as veil and suit are no guarantees either.

They can minimize for sure and for those who choose to do so, more power to them.

but why is it necessary to try to call out other people in such negative ways just because it does not fit your determination of risk-worthiness?

(and that is the generic "you" not specifically 'you' valleyman, )

Big Bear


----------



## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Bear,
I didn't mean to point out just you except that you had posted about riding a cycle. I very much accept that it each ones right to take what ever measures of protection that THEY feel comfortable with.
However I hope that you are safe with your level of protection as I got a very good deal on the extractor from you and might need something else later. 
Best of luck to everyone, just in my opinion some will need more luck than others. I believe that we make our own luck.
Oh, by the way, since I have 3 medical professionals in my immediate family. Does anyone know what they call motorcyclist without a helmet?


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

hey valleyman, some of us (like me) accept as part of that stinging risk, the medical attributes they can give.

no pain, no gain, kind of thang.

I welcome a sting now and then. Not because I intend to kill a bee, but one, it keeps me on my toes and two, I do have a bit of arthritis creeping up on me and it does help.

or, it could be I'm just a glutton for punishment.

Big Bear


----------



## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

I find it interesting that all those who were offended by my post misread it.

There is a big difference between "don't have to learn" and "are not" for those still having trouble with this.

This isn't about bravodo...like BBO has been saying over and over it is about learning your bees and how other things influence their mood. 

For those that do not wish to learn these things...fine, for those who have fear issues...fine, for those who just don't want to worry about the bee buzzing near their face...fine, and for those who live their lives petrified of a "freak accident"...fine, I have no problem with any of that, but to call folks who have learned (and are still learning) this craft stupid....well, I will quit here lest I hurt more ego's and get deleted.


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

hey NS, I don't mind being called stupid, heck I'm used to it, I'm married. heh heh.

I just think sometimes people get a little carried away in trying to make blanket judgments on others just because they themselves wouldn't do it the same way.

vive le diferance as the french say and

variety is the spice of life as someone else said and 

"hey dummy, what the heck are you thinking!" as my daddy always tells me.

Big Bear


----------



## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I don't take offense being called stupid in this context. Heck I call myself stupid regularly. I would imagine that most folks do have that, why did I do that talk.

They call them organ donors!!! Don't be one or you would be considered unwise. Thats all I've ever said about anyone differing from my methods.


----------



## BeehindtheHive (Apr 29, 2010)

I don't own a veil for myself, but IABeeman's post about his father's experience stuck in my head. Since reading that, I've been donning my goggles when tending the bees. The risk of being blinded is one that I'd like to keep at a minimum level.




valleyman said:


> Does anyone know what they call motorcyclist without a helmet?


 Answer: Organ donors. (Highlight the blank space to read)


----------



## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

It appears that this thread has about run its course. 

I think that it has been very useful for all as it has given insight into each posters methods and why. If it has helped prevent one major mishap in even one persons life that would be great. Even those of you that choose to not wear protection will now be a little more observant of their deameanor before taking action.

Best of luck to all!!
Brent Cook


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Okay, to illustrate that I am not completely out of my mind. Yesterday when I began harvesting frames of emerging brood from hives with resources to spare, and replacing them with my newly designed and constructed medium foundationless frames, I discovered that we had come into a period of dearth. I got stung once on the forehead, twice on the back of my head and once on my left earlobe. I went and donned my hat and veil. Afterwards it was mostly a race to finish my manipulations quickly enough to limit the amount of robbing being initiated while hives resources were exposed by my efforts. Fortunately all my hives and nucs are strong enough to hold their own, but there will still be some fighting and loss of life. Many robbers are summarily executed.


----------



## beekeeper_sd (Oct 30, 2008)

You people need a life. To each his own. Whether you use a veil or not depends on a number of things. As commerical beekeepers, I wouldn't think of pulling into a yard without a veil but, hey if you want to work 1-2 hives without one, go ahead take a sting or two. But, just shut up and let this thread die.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well beekeeper sd, you sorta beat me to it, but I was going to say that I'm kind of impressed that there are so many people who want to ring in on this subject. I haven't read a one, except the last one.

When I first saw the title I chuckled. Sure, one or two hives or maybe more on a really nice day w/ a strong nectar flow on. But anyone w/ a number of hives and a desire to work them will wear the appropriate protective wear. A suitable balance of comfort and protection from unnecassary stings and the ability to get ones work done.

I don't know any real carpenters who go to work w/out the proper tools. I don't know any real beekeepers who would either. So, I always wear a veil and use a smoker to work my 500 plus hives w/ 32 to 40 colonies per yard.


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

for people who are telling others to shut up about it, you seem to be interested in getting your own 2 cents in.

don't know if you bothered to read the first pages before you got to the end of this, so I will merely point you to my above posts and say thanks for giving your opinion for how you see things. Not that I agree with you, but, hey, if we all agreed, it would bee a boring place.

for the record folks, no one here has said that they always work bees without protection. most have said that they use their observation skills and judgment to determine each unique situation as to the temperament of the bees in regard to making the decision to use or not use those things.

enjoy the bees. 

Big Bear


----------



## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I believe that I was one of the first to try and end this thread. But I had an experience today that me think of this thread. I had put a super on strong hive and fed them for a couple of weeks. I did it to give them more room also. I checked them yesterday and the queen had laid lots in this super that was drawn out for syrup. So lots of drone brood. I smoked them and pecked them down into the upper hive body and made sure the queen wasn't in the super and put on an excluder. Today I went back and tore the top off all the drone brood. I would have loved to have seen someone do this without a veil. It would have made a good teaching video on what not to do. So you'll go ahead and be brave. While I really don't mind being stung I just don't want it on my head.

Good bye I'm done. Good luck to all.


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

oh my god. it's as if no one bothers to actually read what people are writing.

Whatever. :doh:

Big Bear


----------



## beekeeper_sd (Oct 30, 2008)

Sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone. Just that sometimes these threads go on FOREVER.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Then skip them. No one is making you read them. Maybe we should quarantine this Thread like what has been done to Tailgater? No. Skip it.


----------



## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

BUMP..... J/K, two thumbs up Big Bear!! :applause:


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

now he's giving me the thumb. two of em even.

That's IT!! I'm unsalted, err, insulted, umm. I like the unsalted better.

I just have a question for folks who wear a veil every time...

Do you wear the garter belt too? doesn't that get uncomfortable after awhile?

forget I asked. I don't wanna know after all.

Big Bear


----------



## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

This thread has convinced me of one thing. It has made me evaluate the way I work my hives. I am definitely going to change the way I do it. From now on WHEN I am going to wear protection, I will fire up my smoker, using grass hay for fuel, don my hooded, veiled, slipover cotton jacket as I usually do. But instead of putting on my nasty propolised up gloves I am going to put on latex gloves. Because I don't mind a few stings to the hands. I just hate to get the propolis all over my hands. They really mess up the nylons.
Let me put this another way for you bee whisperers, Would you work them with out anything below your waist? NO, I don't think so. Well me I would rather be stung below the waist than I had around my eyes or nose. But that's just me.!!!


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

nothing below the waist huh?
sounds interesting. matter of fact, there are a couple fellas on youtube known for doing just that.

I am just curious why you feel the need to condescend to people who make different choices about hats/veils when it doesn't really affect you at all?

just doesn't make sense to me why someone who likes to get all suited up would worry what others do?

Big Bear


----------



## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I would never mean be condecending to my friends which is what I consider the sensible ones on here to be. I was merely trying to prove to you the error of your ways when it come to protection and using situations to show it, My friend.


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

lol. It's all good valleyman. but what I could appreciate more among my friends is the respect that even though I may do something differently, I may still know what I am doing and I won't force my friends to do anything they don't want to do.

Big Bear


----------



## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I would never try to force anyone to go against their beliefs. Its just that in my next life I want to be a lawyer, and I'm practicing already,(without pay of course).


----------

