# Help Deciding between Warre and Langstroth



## dfitch (Apr 15, 2015)

So, I have pretty much decided that I am going to get myself into beekeeping. I'll have two hives on my property to start out with. I've done a bit of initial research/reading on everything, and am pretty certain I'll want to because knowing my luck I will certainly flub something up. But also two hives will give me better experience in learning my bees and what to look for. I've always enjoyed the care of animals, loved my freshwater fish, and had tried my hand at saltwater fish and coral but too many chemicals and tweaks to try and get right and too much money sunk into it after a bit caused me to shut it down. But I really enjoy watching or interacting with complex natural systems.

It was a mix of just speaking with my niece who was already interested in beekeeping, and then seeing the Flow Hive viral video that went out that made me really think about, and ultimately decide to get into it. After further research, I've opted not to go with the Flow Hive for a few reasons. I'd prefer the bees use their own honeycomb, rather than plastic firstly. While I've thoroughly read several forums through on their respective opinions/and or experiences with the Flow Hive (both for and against), I think I would rather for myself rather have the 'hands on' experience even if that means a bit more work in actually harvesting the honey.

Which then brought me to my next stumper. Which Hive to get? Before I began researching beekeeping, I didn't even know there were multiple hives. I love the concept and idea behind the Top Bar Hive, but as my space is limited and they seem to be a little tricky to work winters with by having to try to force the bees to work from one side to the other, my choices then are the Warre or the much more popular/used Langstroth.

I am torn, and would like some feedback on which would be best for me to go with.

I've read a lot of the pros/cons of each, fully understand that there is more 'support' out there, more knowledge, tools (like top feeders, etc...), and such for the Langstroth. And the general consensus is that it's better for a new person to beekeeping such as myself to start out that way for those reasons.

However, I am also drawn to the Warre. I find the design more appealing/aesthetic (which I know plays a very insignificant part, the house is for the bees, not me), but I love the windows the Warres can come with to be able to at least watch some of the activity without pulling out comb or opening the hive - and that's something very interesting to me and, I will admit a much larger factor as to why I am having trouble with this decision.

The amount of honey harvested for me isn't so important. I'm not in this to make a ton of $$$. Sure, I'll sell excess honey to make a bit of extra cash, but I'm doing it because I want to for myself (I need a hobby, and I need to get outside more), because of the social networking of bees and what I can/could learn, and yes, because I do love honey. And certainly to help with the loss of the honeybee, too.

Another huge factor for me is wintering. At least from what little research or forums I've been able to find on the subject, it seems to me that Warres winter better due to the 'chimney' like effect the roof has. 

Being from Michigan where we've had two terrible, terrible winters, I want to make sure that my bees stand as good a chance they can to survive. 

So, any thoughts, feedback, from those who've tried both (or are doing both), especially those in colder climates, any thoughts on the viewing windows, etc... (are they helpful, not all that helpful) would at least give me more ammo and info to make up my mind.

In the meantime, I'll be over here in the corner listening to Frank Zappa and reading Beekeeping for Dummies.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I have Langs, TBH and Warre. Each is interesting and which you choose will depend on what interests you the most plus how much lifting you are able/ willing to do.


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## iluvicecream (Jun 2, 2014)

Welcome to Beesource!
I enjoyed reading your post and chuckled at the last comment!  I can't give you any concrete advice being just a year into this myself, but I will tell you that I went with Langstroth hives and have had plenty of opportunity to "interact" and observe the hive through inspections and just plain sitting in front of the hive and watching the comings and goings! You can learn a lot from doing that plus, it's very meditative in my opinion! Learning how to gently pull out frames and what to look for has been a great experience in patience and focus. The smells are so varied depending on the time of year...it's really a full sensory experience (including the occasional sting!) I'm looking forward to hearing the advice that comes from some of the "old-timers"!


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## frankthomas (Aug 2, 2012)

Welcome to Beesource from a fellow Michigan beek. My opinion is to just go with Langstroth. It is the standard for many reasons and I think you will get better support and possibly have better success. But I've only worked with Langs. 

Ask lots of questions here. A good place to learn.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

No reason why you can't put a window on a Lang.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I have windows in some of my Langs.
Most interesting is a Perone with both sides made of plexi


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

If you want to extract honey (the old fashioned way  ) and be able to reuse the comb next year for honey a Langstroth is the way to go. And you can easily put a window on a Lang if you so desire. I've never had a warre hive but have tried top bar hives and prefer the sturdiness and the protection a frame gives to drawn comb. If I wanted copious amounts of wax at the end of the season as well as honey (crush and strain) I would use a warre or top bar hive setup. Good luck  :thumbsup:


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Some aspects of Warre hives can be appropriated and used in Langs, if like. (Windows and quilt boxes on top, are two examples.) Lang equipment may be less expensive as it is more commonly chosen and therefore economies of scale push the prcing down. Warre and TBH tend to be more "boutique" items, unless you're making your own.

You can keep your bees on natural comb in a Lang, or at least a not all plastic, if you want. Plastic frames are not bad for bees, or for you - they work just fine. But there are alternatives that still retain the advantages (to the _bees_)of semi-permanent frames.

One of the best pieces of advice I got starting out three years ago: using the most common equipment in your area will simplify things when you need advice and help. (And you will!) Because there is so much to learn, it's wise to reduce the variable that would be introduced by having atypical equipment.

And two complete stacks of simple Langs are not soething that is an irrevocable decision, because if you do well, you'll make increase and can put those bees in other kinds of hives. As you have noticed people often to have more than one style of hive, eventually.

I hope you enjoy your bees.

Enj.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I recommend all eight frame medium Langstroths. If you want just top bars, then make top bars for them instead of frames. If you want a quilt box, use an empty box for that. If you want to add boxes to the bottom like a Warre' do that. But all in all I think it's less work to just do the eight frame mediums with foundationless frames to get natural comb and add the boxes to the top (with a drawn comb for a "ladder" from the box below) so you don't have to lift so many boxes...


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## Laurab (Apr 26, 2015)

I am a newbie and chose the warre hive. The bee man yelled at me today for not using a lang. But he is a dealer of lang hives. Do what you feel is best for you and you will learn by doing and reading. Thank goodness for the internet.


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## SalsaMom (Jan 15, 2015)

dfitch - I am in the same boat with you. I plan to set up two hives Spring of 2016.
We are currently planning our bee yard and I will order equipment and supplies throughout this year.
I had debated Warre and all 8 frame medium Langs.
I have Michael Bush's book and am on a Warre yahoo group too. I like MB's reply to your question. I saw a similar response from him on some other thread some time ago.
I finally chose to go with all 8 frame medium Langs. Mainly because I WILL need help and it will be easier to get it - and maybe even hands-on help - if I do a Lang.
I plan to make a quilt box for the Langs - well - sweet talking my hubby into making them.
I am ordering the hives - so I will skip a viewing window -not an option - though that would be cool. But if you are building them yourself - heck - go for it and put them on there!
I finally thought that both methods are fine and I just had to make a call and run with it.
Being able to get help more easily - and expense (I am not making my hives - all the Warre hives I found were very pricey) - those finally tipped the scale to the 8 frame medium Langs.

Good luck!


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## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

I'll second M Bush. Started with 10 frame Langstroths with quilt/vent boxes. Buddy has nothing but Warre's that he essentially runs as Langstroths. I'm hoping to expand my hardware this Fall and will be going with 8 frame langstroths if nothing else just to have all my frames, etc. match my current stock. Really, Warre and Langstroth can be ran in multiple configurations (let the honies use it as they will-you're there for their comic relief).
oh, and just remember...everyone is wrong, and everyone is right...just go with the seasons and enjoy the alchemy that is bee tending!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I second Michael Bush. Having managed frame hives for 42 years before venturing into topbar hives, I would no sooner trade in my Langstroths for Warres than I would trade in my Smartphone and Toyota pickup for a Pony Express Post office horse. The only advantage that Warres have over Langstroths is that everybody says they are “cute”. You will get more women with a Warre than you will with a Langstroth. Warres and topbars are too small for our area, they are a mess to manage. Honey comb is extremely fragile, it must be contained within a frame for easy maintenance and inspections. Having to cut honey comb apart and having it break while inspecting a hive is a mess. You can achieve the same effects of a Warre with a foundationless eight frame Langstroth.


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## johnsof (Oct 14, 2014)

I have to take a crack at this. I have two Warres, one modified Warre (Warre with frames) and will install one nuc into a new 10-frame Lang in a week or so. So I'm small potatoes and I won't say what's better anyway.
There are some things about the Warre that are really nice. I happen to think the physical dimensions (a standard Warre body is a bit smaller inside than a 10-frame medium Lang body) along with the quilt box - which I think is genius - make for a nice compact winter cluster that seems to overwinter quite well. The quilt in my Warres gets soaking wet at the top surface from condensation and in my climate, sorry, I don't think a piece of styrofoam stuck up under the cover is going to cut it. Maybe in a climate where it isn't -15C for weeks on end every winter it would be a different story - but my bees stay nice and dry inside and I believe that the basically square shape is good for them vs. the rectangular shape of a Lang.
The Warre hives are EASY to build and with a table saw you can slap together a whole bunch of boxes in really a few hours. Sure, the top bars are a little more difficult but I cut a jig and it works great for the bars. The Warre hive bodies are LIGHT, even when full of bees and honey, and this is especially true if you build out of western red cedar or something like that as compared to pine or whatever locally-sourced wood is available and cheap. Even with the higher cost of the cedar, the Warre is stll way cheaper than a Lang because you don't have the cost of the frames and foundation. Sure, I guess you can go foundationless in a frame - but it's not that easy to get nice straight comb. But if you don't have the ability or tools or interest in building yourself, the Langs are way cheaper to buy and far more readily available.
I have experienced and read plenty about how it is difficult to get the bees to draw more than two boxes of comb in a season. For me this means starting to feed sugar blocks pretty early in the winter. However, after a while it is easy to take away the bottom box in the winter when all of the bees are up in the top box and nadir in one or two empty boxes with frames and save the boxes with empty comb to super when the flow is on or in fall with sugar syrup 2:1 to boost the winter stores.
In the end I think you have to decide if you want a "intensive" management or want a more "hands-off" approach (not really hands-off, for sure, but minimal management). It is a hassle to open up a Warre and pull out bars of comb since you need to cut them away from the inside of the have body first, and this can be a mess and takes extra time. Plenty of people make the arguement that the Warre was developed before Varroa but there seem to be plenty of Warre users that powder sugar treat or use strips when indicated and not have big issues with mites. The whole concept behind the Warre is a cheap hive to build and one where you don't go in there every week or two and get all wound up about stuff that you can't control anyway. But I personally don't think you'll ever get the production unless you actively manage, and to me that means using something with frames, probably frames with foundation, and that makes for a more expensive setup and (I hate to say it but I will) a less "natural" approach to beekeeping.
So there are some awfully nice things about a Warre but if you are in this for prodution, then stick with a Lang. If you want to minimize management, minimize cost, and worry about lifting very freaking heavy boxes, then go with a Warre. I happen to like the Warre look and just in case Odfrank reads this, I am probably as much of a man as you are, pal. That doesn't mean that I can't appreciate something that is asthetically pleasing to look at instead of those ugly aluminum top covers.
Fred J.
Western Wisconsin
it's cold here


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I was talking with my State Apiarist the other day while he was lamenting the new beekeepers need to experiment with hive styles. It was in this conversation that I told him I was starting my first TBH this year.

So long as you're not going to nail your frames down in the Warre and you're happy to live with the benefits and consequences you think you'll get with the Warre, then go for it.

Be prepared for consequences you hadn't considered - the one that concerns me most is the paucity of people who can give first hand feedback/advice with the method.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

I probably do something wrong...because I do a lot of honey with those unmangeable, too small and messy Warré hives...


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Sure it is the hive that forages for honey...:scratch:

If I had to decide between Langstroth and Warrés, I'd choose a deep Jumbo Dadant (they actually call them "Modified US Dadant" here in Europe...and noone in the US knows them. :s) with shallows for honey supers.

Nevertheless, a Warré hive is a simple hive and this can be good if you don't want to spend all your money into beekeeping. If you want to, I suggest buying FlowHives, that is a good sink for money.

I can buy three Warré hives for one Dadant hive (75 € compared to 260 € for a complete hive, with excluder and feeder and everything) and I can make 80-90 % of a Dadant honey crop potential in a single Warré. So for me it is a better return for the money invested. There are other nice features, like dimensions which makes those hives very good to transport. I run them on frames now, once hive numbers went up. It is faster when harvesting.

Inspecting is no easier or worse than in any other hives. If you do fixed combs you need to inspect differently, more like a skep beekeeper. That's the main source of confusion for beekeepers with experience: they try to run Warré hives like a Langstroth. This certainly ends in frustration.


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## johnsof (Oct 14, 2014)

Hallo Hr. Heuvel; es tut mir leid, aber ich denke, dass Sie haben meine Antwort nicht verstanden!
I LIKE the Warre hives. I want to continue to use them and for me it is the best solution. I think that if someone is only a hobbyist (like me), if maybe they have "backyard" beekeeping with neighbors nearby, if one does not want to actively be inside the beehives each week or two, then the Warre is a great solution. Just because the commercial beekeepers with 100-200-400 hives use the Langstroth design doesn't mean that the hobbyist with only a few hives should do it too. Sure, if the new beekeeper wants to go inside the hive each week, if he/she wants to try to look at the brood and search for the queen and all of these things, then for sure a frame is better for them because we have to be honest, it really can be a little difficult and maybe also a little messy when you have fixed comb. Even yourself uses quite a lot of Warre hives with frames so OK, we can say that either a modified Warre or Lang can be easier to have from this standpoint. And it does seem to be difficult to get a Warre - at least the first years - to expand into more than two hive bodies unless you can move some comb into the empty hive bodies or put empty topbars in between ones drawn fully with comb or some other method. Perhaps you can take this "problem" and make a further discussion about it? It would be great if you can because it is certain you have a lot of experience!
But for sure we both agree, the cost of the Warre if you make it yourself, which is quite easy to do, is much much much lower than the cost of the Lang (or a modified Warre) with frames and foundation. Although I should add that here in Germany the frame design is much different than the USA and maybe the cost of a frame in Germany is lower than the cost of a purchased frame in USA. But with only the topbars in the standard Warre then for sure it is a lot less time spent putting together the frames and foundation. And also for sure the Warre is much lighter in weight and for a lot of people I think also this is a big advantage. And then again for the hobbyist he can harvest honey without an extractor and this is a big advantage also.
For me, I only purchased a Lang in a moment of weakness. But I have given advice to small beginner hobbyists in urban settings that they should also consider the Warre as a very good alternative to the Lang. And I guess maybe that you agree! 
(und ja, laetze u. diese Woche ich bin in Deutschland, in die nahe von Fruedenstadt im Schwarzwald. Ich bin ein mitarbeiter von einer deutsche Firma!)


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

I have a few Warre hives, or more precisely Roger Delon hives. Normally I avoid these discussions on hive types.
I do think there are some differences to the Warre type hives.

One is the bottom bee space. I do find it difficult to replace the hive bodies without squashing some bees especially at this time of the year when boxes are boiling over with bees. If I started over again I would use frames in the Warre like Bernhard does.

Once the top bars have been fixed to the sides of the hive body, it is best to leave them so. Cutting this usually releases honey and can cause robing. This means one has to manage the hive on a hive body basis and not per frame. Takes some getting used to but has some benefits.

The difference I find the most frustrating of all is, in my experience, is that the bees are more reluctant to move up or down into a nadired or supered hive body. The so called false floor effect, despite providing ladders ie foundation or combs for the bees. If this happens then the bees are in swarm mode. Carnica the bees I have, are known to be swarmy. That is more difficult or time consuming to manage with a Warre. I don't want my hives to swarm and will try everything to stop it. 
The brood nest in a Warre is a different layout to my ten frame Zander hives, it can be wall to wall brood in a Warre hive body, no pollen or honey just brood.
I also feel that a overwintered nuc builds up faster in a Warre and is as strong as a overwintered production colony come spring, but that's just my observations.
I have both the movable frame hives (Zander or British national hive) and the so called fixed top bar hives (Warre), the bees are the same and so is the beekeeper. The differences is in the hive, it means I have to use a different management style for each hive type. For me the movable frame hive is more forgiving, its much easier to fix my mistakes with the lang type hive that the Warre. If you get it right the Warre, with a suitable style of management it will produce as much as any other hive. I just find them more challenging to manage properly.
A lot of new beekeepers are attracted the idea of a Warre, just like I was, with this minimalist, natural beekeeping, possibly treatment free too. All of which, to my mind, should be considered advanced level beekeeping


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## Stlnifr (Sep 12, 2010)

Roger Delon hives, very interesting reading, makes a lot of sense. Closes thing I have seen to a bee tree may be my next build. I have been looking on how to duplicate a bee tree and this just might be the way.


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## intlgrrl (Apr 26, 2015)

I'm glad I found this thread, because I'm a beginner beekeeper as well, and I'm leaning heavily towards a Warre hive vs. the Lang. I keep seeing that its hard to get the bees to expand past the first two hive bodies, so would it be better to attach a third in the beginning or no?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

If you feed them, you get as many hives bodies with drawn comb as you wish. A good young queen, tons of bees, good feeding and you will have no problems at all.

Best is to work box by box. First one box, when it is drawn the other box. And so on. Two boxes are needed minimum to winter bees. (And make some honey next year.)


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## johnsof (Oct 14, 2014)

See, I am doing something wrong again. Because when I did this (first year) each hive the bees backfilled the brood and within about 8 weeks swarmed . After the new queen then they would start to build comb in the third nadired box but never really fill it and did not store any honey there. By end of fall these boxes were completely empty and I removed them for winter. This happened each time.

So at least here in my area I think is better to feed heavily until brood is established in 2nd box and then really restrict the feeding so they don't completely backfill and swarm. Hr. Heuvel, have you any thoughts about this? :s


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Don't bulk feed splits and swarms. Just a little but constant flow. Only so much as they can take in a night or within a couple of days. That is true for any sort of hive. Feed until winter. 

Repeat myself: use a young queen, have tons of bees in that hive. That's it.

You want two boxes, no need to add a third unless you have very harsh and long winters.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

You know when to add another box when the hive has plenty of capped brood. One comb of capped brood makes three/four combs of bees. Three hive bodies make 24 combs. So you need at least 6 combs of capped brood before adding a third box. Within ten days the box gets populated. If you have a weak hive with only a little brood - which is not just a queen failure, the beekeeper can feed them to death, too - there is no point giving them another box. 

Trickle feed, that's the best way to get a good expansion.


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