# Walk away split vs 2 queen split



## whitebark (Jul 14, 2004)

I have heard complaints about folks doing walk away splits and the loss of productivity in the queenless colony until a new queen is laying (and both colonies if you consider honey production). I have found that if I separate a double brood chamber into 2 with a couple of supers sandwiched in the middle, queen excluders top and bottom, that the queenless chamber will often rear a new queen leaving me with a 2 queen colony. I haven't really quantified things but my guess is that productions isn't compromised too much, if at all, and if the 2nd queen doesn't take I can just re-unite the boxes. It kind of accomplishes the same as a walk away but instead of 2 mediocre hives I keep one full production hive running until I can determine if I have queen rite splits.


----------



## Pinchecharlie (May 14, 2014)

huh! seems like a fine idea! wonder if anyone will add any negative feedback?


----------



## ScipioUSA (Jun 9, 2013)

That seems like its not a bad idea. Im guessing thats what this was created for also.

http://www.betterbee.com/wooden-hive-equipment/dsc1-double-screen-10fr.asp

That would probably prevent the workers from balling the new queen?


----------



## brownbuff75 (Jul 1, 2013)

Something that you may want to try what is called a reverse split. You find the queen pull the frame she's on plus one or 2 more frames with brood and put her in a nuc box and let her raise another coloney. Then the original with all the rest of the bees will raise a new queen. Yes you do pull some of the bees from the hive to do this but you gain the advantage of having a brood break. From what I have read is this cause all of the bees to go foage because there is no brood to take care of. So you have slightly less bees but more overall forage bees. One word of caution with this method. When they are done making queen cells destroy all but 2 to 3 of them. Otherwise you will get swarms and afterswarms. I have had a hive cast of 4 swarms before because I didn't destroy the queen cells.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

ScipioUSA said:


> That seems like its not a bad idea. Im guessing thats what this was created for also.
> 
> http://www.betterbee.com/wooden-hive-equipment/dsc1-double-screen-10fr.asp
> 
> That would probably prevent the workers from balling the new queen?


The split using the procedure in the link above prevents heat loss which is a big barrier to growth for those of us in cold climates. Both parts of the split are accommodated on the same floor board and under the same roof. The cells started above the division board can be used to start more than one nuc or allowed to raise only one queen who can be combined to repace the old queen if no increase is desired. Just pull the division board and about 80% or more of the time the new queen will go down and replace the old queen. The only drawback I found to using this as a two queen hive for an extended period is that honey supers are in the middle of the stack and it gets a bit high. 

The concept was originally contrived as a swarm control method but has many other uses. I plan to run three or more hives this way this season.


----------



## Ian G (Jul 29, 2014)

So for the excluder, do you have it set up then as deep, queen excluder, super x2, queen excluder, then deep again? Thats a great idea i think I'll give it a try.

Edit:
Do you give the top box an upper entrance?


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Ian G said:


> So for the excluder, do you have it set up then as deep, queen excluder, super x2, queen excluder, then deep again? Thats a great idea i think I'll give it a try.
> 
> Edit:
> Do you give the top box an upper entrance?


The Snelgrove board takes the place of the upper excluder and gives upper box its own entrance. The several supers plus the division board screen gives enough separation that the upper box bees will start and finish cells without inducing swarming in the bottom box. The hive smells are identical so moving bees from upper to lower boxes causes no problems with fighting or queen acceptance if you combine. 

Do a search on google for Snelgrove Board and you will get more detail on different things you can achieve with it. The theory and entrance manipulation is a bit challenging to read but easy when you actually get your hands into it. It is easy to use brood from a selective hive and set the division board up on one of your second rate hives so you dont disrupt your ace hives.


----------



## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

whitebark said:


> I have heard complaints about folks doing walk away splits and the loss of productivity in the queenless colony until a new queen is laying (and both colonies if you consider honey production). I have found that if I separate a double brood chamber into 2 with a couple of supers sandwiched in the middle, queen excluders top and bottom, that the queenless chamber will often rear a new queen leaving me with a 2 queen colony. I haven't really quantified things but my guess is that productions isn't compromised too much, if at all, and if the 2nd queen doesn't take I can just re-unite the boxes. It kind of accomplishes the same as a walk away but instead of 2 mediocre hives I keep one full production hive running until I can determine if I have queen rite splits.


some queen breads will have 2 queens laying at the same time. there is a guy in canada i think ( i read an article years ago on the subject) that runs all his hives with 2 queens. i guess he selected for the gentle queens. 
regardless of that, i think you are overthinking it. to make an omlet you will have to brake some eggs, and it is the same with splits. you want the extra hive , or you want to have one strong hive for honey? andswer this and you have answered your question. in my case, i do not give much thought to honey, so all i do , as soon as they are strong enough, i split them, and get the extra colony. i pulled 10lbs of honey just because i had a shallow super with some frames of honey in it, and had to extract or risk hive beatle infestation. that is in 3 years, i pulled 10lbs of honey  i will pull more honey this year, because i have set deeps on them, and they filled up already with honey, in the pre-honey flow. our honey flow should kick in next week, so in the weekend, i will have to go there and pull some honey off them, or risk having my hives plug up. 

another thing is, to try and do your walk away split as soon as you see mature drones flying around. that usually means, they will have a queen up and running , way before your honey flow comes in, so you will still have enough time on that colony to build up, and still make some honey. now this works in the south, where it is warm, up in vancouver, it might not be an option. look into buying caucasian queens, they are awesome in colder climates.
i split mine like that , first week of march. they all worked out well (still have 1 with queen issues, but it should be fine by now) and to be honest, half the ones i split then, i could go split again today. i will probably end up splitting 4-5 of them, just because they are to strong ( they are already on 3 deep, with 10-12 brood frames) and they risk swarming.


----------



## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

bees will still forage without a queen, being queenless doesn't seem to make them less productive overall, in fact quite the opposite. I like to pull the queen and a frame of bees from a strong hive, let them make lots of queen cells, then break it into several nucs just before they hatch.


----------



## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

tanksbees said:


> bees will still forage without a queen, being queenless doesn't seem to make them less productive overall, in fact quite the opposite.


I agree the only problem I have experienced with this method is the foragers filling the broodnest before the new queen is mated. I have a hive now that I am going to have to swap some frames out of tomorrow because she is back and the broodnest is clogged up. We are in a very good flow though. G


----------



## whitebark (Jul 14, 2004)

biggraham610 said:


> I agree the only problem I have experienced with this method is the foragers filling the broodnest before the new queen is mated. I have a hive now that I am going to have to swap some frames out of tomorrow because she is back and the broodnest is clogged up. We are in a very good flow though. G


I often make the split with 2 honey supers between brood boxes to maximize distance between queens to encourage rearing a new one, and to avoid any honybound issues. And yes, in response to another question, a top entrance is required unless you move your queen up and the lower box rears the queen. I like to simply worry about where eggs end up (top and bottom), leave a top opening just in case, and not even locate the original queen.


----------

