# Idiots Apiary



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> ......Still TF!


Hi William,
Since you are "still TF", I'd like to hear your story!


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

HAHA! Had a laugh at myself, I was thinking TF that he put in, "Still Thank Full"! :lpf:


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Looking forward to hearing how the cathedral hive works out for you. Being TF the first year is the easy part. Staying TF and still having bees is a little harder. I understand you are starting off with really good stock.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

GregV said:


> Hi William,
> Since you are "still TF", I'd like to hear your story!


Much of the early stuff is over in Tpope's thread and a lot of the rest is off topic here (hive stand, electric fence...) JWPalmer hits on two key points in that I started with good stock and the first year is easy. 

Two mistakes I made were not recognizing queen cups at the two week inspection. Knew there were not any 'peanuts', but after the hive swarmed on day 27 went back and spotted the cups in the pictures. Caught the swarm BTW and it is now the strongest of the three.

Second was while making my first split. Have read countless times to give splits extra nurse bees. Since I was moving a mostly drawn medium from the hive that swarmed to the new hive with the swarm (thinking it could make immediate use verses the hive raising a queen) I shook all ten frames of wax drawing bees into the nuc. Think you can guess the result. Nuc survived despite the very slow start and is almost equal in number of bees with the much larger original hive.

New chapter with my "Dunwoody" bees starts here so stay tuned.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

JWPalmer said:


> Looking forward to hearing how the cathedral hive works out for you. Being TF the first year is the easy part. Staying TF and still having bees is a little harder. I understand you are starting off with really good stock.


BTW was wrong about there being part of a seventh hive, just spare parts to the cathedral. Got a much better look at it this morning and it is fascinating design. A *lot* of work went into building it! Not real crazy about some of the materials chosen for the exterior. Plan to research bee safe wood preservatives that will maintain the natural look and get it all cleaned up and ready for next spring. The top bar by comparison is kind of 'meh' blue paint.

Not sure my new stock will as good as what I started with. Though they do all appear to be mixed mutts as well. Hope that diversity will help in the future in that they will not all have a bad year at the same time. Hope that makes sense? Getting late and I'm on ten hour days due to Covid.

What's up with the edited thread title? Understand the quibble with the apostrophe, had one myself then took it out. But adding a "The" at the start changes the whole context.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> ......Not sure my new stock will as good as what I started with. .....


Old stock/new stock...

So, OK, did you go through 100% loss (yet)?

Mostly I care about survival rates and how they can be made reasonable while doing things chem-free.
People get shy to just honestly put up their #s - not helpful if we are to get better at it.
To be sure, am rebuilding from 100% loss this year; that's what I got.
Still TF.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William:

I am glad to see you started your own thread, and your TF experience in many ways mirrors my own.

I too 'inherited' some top-bar Warre equipment and have had a 'love-hate' relationship with it ever since. They do afford one the opportunity to learn more about what a colony would normally do when left to their own devices.

I also identify with your thread title. Fits me to a 't'... I'll look forward to your updates.

Russ


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

GregV said:


> Old stock/new stock...
> 
> So, OK, did you go through 100% loss (yet)?
> 
> ...


Old as in what came from Tpope, new is what I brought home Sunday. Can not fathom 100% loss with more than just a few hives. So sorry for you and plan to re-read your thread from the beginning. Think I have at least skimmed all the stickies in this sub forum. 

Plan to be honest with my losses and hopefully with eight total hives it will be statistically meaningful. With only three it could be 100% either way just due to random chance.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Wish the top bar was a long lang for compatibility. Do think I'm going to enjoy the cathedral most of all once I get it going. Well, at least until I get around to building an observation hive

Several of the hives I just bought have small windows in them. Know that will be fun as I already have one of the plastic 'bubble tops' and it is always a hit with visitors. Pull off the telescoping cover for a few minutes and watch the bees with no suit on.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> Trying to come up to speed in both the top bar and Warre world...


https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?363895-Feeding-a-top-bar-nuc&p=1824329#post1824329

One thing - I don't see an coherent strategy regarding the equipment.
Is this mish-mash of non-standard hives is actually by choice?
Because IF so, then I wonder what are logistics of cross-platform moves.
Hive-to-hive bee/frame moves should be trivial, bi-directional, and not require a circular saw. 

I mean, I am non-standard myself, but I do have a fundamental standard - all frames must be 12.5" long.







This standard makes cross-platform moves easy for me.
Not to mention my long hives are compatible to the Lang frames in two directions, not just one.

I too want to experiment with vertical hives, but those will be compatible to my long hives.
One exception - my hex swarm traps.
Those were free and so was a no-brainer to take and use them.
These are compatible to the rest of the equipment by simply screwing a longer top bar when moving a frame from the trap to a standard hive.

So I would suggest to make some decisions on this regard asap - else you are looking for more and more pain along the way.
If was doing TB hives, I'd be doing TTBHs with the bar compatible to the Langs (in fact, fully compatible to the Lang single deep frame - a no brainer there). 

This cathedral hive (hopefully free or very cheap) - is nothing but a pain with no discernible benefits to it. 
Search the forum on this subject for the opinions.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

It was a bargain any way you look at it. Owner is moving and was thrilled to sell all to one person who showed up (semi) prepared. 5 of the 6 have bees and that includes a Lang and Lang nuc. 

True, the rest is a mish-mash of non standard 'toys'. Learning experience at the very least. Have already decided that if I ever build a long hive it will be a long Lang. And not planing on buying any of them odd ball hives new.

May borrow your 'two frames lashed together and turned sideways' idea when I start an OB hive. Have a bunch of free glass that is naturally the wrong size. Can cut glass but lack the skill to cut just a small amount off. 

Will search for discussion of the cathedral here. A bit disappointed in what you are suggesting. To my inexperienced with bees eyes it looks no more (or less) useless than the other non standard toys. 

As to your reply in the other thread. Yes, I did not search Did browse 10 years worth of subject lines and found nothing more useful than the bag feeder. Dead links to pictures of home made stuff and one reference to a purchase at Brushy Mountain. Can I borrow your time machine


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Why; doing "top bar feed" returns many useful links.
Here some of them.

https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...top-bar-hive-in-winter&highlight=top+bar+feed

https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...ties-for-top-bar-hives&highlight=top+bar+feed

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?358151-Top-Bar-Feeding&highlight=top+bar+feed


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Speaking of the Cathedral hive, here is one recent talk:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...hive-Year-2-Modified&highlight=cathedral+hive

But I agree - if you got it for (nearly) free, then anything goes at that price (with the understanding of issues).
It is just people pay eye-popping amounts of money for some over-promised, non-existent features.

I too have hex hives (because I got them free) - these are for swarm trapping and experimentation.
Log hives too - the same (experimentation).

Anyhow, toys are toys.
As long as you are aware of the compatibility issues and, in fact, breaking away from compatibility by design and for your own reasons - then you are the boss and you know what you want.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> ....... Can I borrow your time machine


In fact, I have found that using Google to do the beesource search is a better approach.
This is what I have been doing (the beesource search itself is, eh... janky; I avoid it).

Google: "top bar feed beesource" and you will have very good results.


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## BenjaminM (Mar 10, 2020)

While I have heard of treatment free, I had not put it together with the acronym TF. Honestly upon first reading this thread I thought the "T" stood for "Totally" and the "F" well you can take a guess. It is an interesting shift in perspective.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

myrdale said:


> While I have heard of treatment free, I had not put it together with the acronym TF. Honestly upon first reading this thread I thought the "T" stood for "Totally" and the "F" well you can take a guess. It is an interesting shift in perspective.


That alternate meaning is often true for those who try treatment free with commercial stock. Starting with a nuc from TPope I hope to remain in the "Mostly" category. But agree there are too many acronyms used here. Likely would have spelled it out elsewhere.

Now to follow the links GregV posted...


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

GregV said:


> Why; doing "top bar feed" returns many useful links.
> Here some of them.
> 
> https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?358151-Top-Bar-Feeding&highlight=top+bar+feed


Bingo! "bottle feeders with long ports" AKA Duckbill Water Bowl and various other names. Under a buck apiece in quantities of 13 on Amazon. Have not seen them at any of the bee vendors, even ones that sell the much wider Boardman feeders. For future nucs can make a tiny rectangular hole in the _back_ so it will not be in the entrance. This one will have to take its chances...


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

William Bagwell said:


> Bingo! "bottle feeders with long ports" AKA Duckbill Water Bowl and various other names. Under a buck apiece in quantities of 13 on Amazon.


Scratch Amazon if your in a hurry. Slow boat from China, estimated arrival late September Slightly higher but ordered from, oddly enough, an organic _seed_ company here in the US. Not going to link an untested source.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Update: Sad to report my first loss. Original TPope hive that swarmed, had a split taken from it the next day and later cast at least one small after swarm is now a dead out. Both the split and caught swarm from it are still doing fine. Did an inspection back on June 11th when I noticed it dwindling and there was still at least some brood. Early on would have bet the split would be least likely to make it, but they evicted their drones sooner and had a much smaller space to maintain. Too much space, too many drones for the number of bees. And possibly a poorly mated queen. 

So now down to seven, five are being fed at the moment. Still have not received my duck bill feeders for the top bar nuc. Working on cobbling up a feeder for the Warre. Both have some stores so are not starving. Did not plan to feed as much as I have this past week but trying to keep them out of the neighbours humming bird feeders. This has worked for the co-worker who lives on the highway behind us, but not so far for the much closer feeder at the in laws.

The lang nuc from the recent Dunwoody bees is now in a six frame box (10 frame with foam spacers) and on a screened bottom board with oiled inspection board. Have found *zero* mites since last Sunday! It is supposed to have a VSH queen so this is very encouraging. Lots of SHB in the rotten base of the nuc they were in though. Rotted parts went straight in the burn barrel Later did the same with the guts of the quilt box off the Warre. Will rebuild it later as a quilt box after its temporary use as a feeder shim,

Need to get the new lang hive on a screened BB for comparison since it is from a caught swarm.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William:

Good update- sorry to hear about the colony failure. All-in-all it sounds like things are going well in your apiary and I like your idea of experimenting with a few side-by-side comparisons. I'll look forward to reading about your notes and conclusions.

Haven't done any feeding here yet but based on the amount of drawn comb in a few of the new swarm starts I may need to think long-and-hard about it...

Keep up the good work-

Russ


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Sounds like not so much a colony failure as a colony that successfully reproduced several new colonies.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Russ:

Thanks for the encouragement! BTW, my conclusion is that bee keeping is a bunch of hard work. 

Got the feeder on the Warre and its base replaced. Also pulled the bottom box which was not being used due to the window cover missing. Will make a new one and add it back later.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

AR1 said:


> Sounds like not so much a colony failure as a colony that successfully reproduced several new colonies.



At least two. Doubtful that the secondary swarm was large enough to make it but who knows. Seemed like a lot of bees in the air, but the wife who witnessed both it and the primary swarm said it was tiny in comparison.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> BTW, my conclusion is that bee keeping is a bunch of hard work.


Here is a truthful and humorous article by Ms. Rusty Burlew that hits on this sentiment. She sums it all up by writing, _'Keeping bugs sure is a lot of work'._

https://www.honeybeesuite.com/dont-like-beekeeping-much/


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> BTW, my conclusion is that bee keeping is a bunch of hard work. .


I'd ban anymore talks of lazy/easy beekeeping.
LOL

Those are nothing but book/lecture selling attempts.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> BTW, my conclusion is that bee keeping is a bunch of hard work.


Welcome to the age of enlightenment. Beekeeping is fun, most of the time, but it is hard work.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Litsinger: Love it! And the "English for Beekeepers" section, spent way too much time over there.

GregV: Guess I should not discuss the current book I'm reading then. Odd thing is when I bought the book a few months ago, had *no* non-standard hives. His version is however much closer to what I now wish my two top bars were.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> ... And the "English for Beekeepers" section, spent way too much time over there.


William:

I have to be honest- I had never read that section of the website until you mentioned it. As a fledgling grammarian, I found this very satisfying.

I also learned that I am supposed to call them ' honey bees' rather than 'honeybees'...


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Litsinger: 

Now you have me wanting to go back and finish reading her site.:no:

Feeding crisis is over. Researched humming bird feeders here on this forum and bought a slightly different style for the in-laws. Also using peppermint oil as a repellent. This tip was from the owner of a small start up bee keeping supply that opened up near me a few months ago. (Only five miles!) Did not have any Bee-Quick or Honey-B-Gone but his suggestion apparently works. 

Not feeding any hives at the moment but will feed the one that got none if and when my duck bill feeders ever get here. Only other option is to move them to a lang and fill the excess space with foam.

Got my electric fence turn on for the first time! If I can find it will update the thread I started months ago. _Many_ months ago when I first started it


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> Got my electric fence turn on for the first time! If I can find it will update the thread I started months ago. _Many_ months ago when I first started it


https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?361265-First-bear-fence


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Starting to see differences in my new Dunwoody bees verses the ones from Tpope. The two I have been monitoring for mites have very low counts. Daily 0s to occasionally 3s. The VSH nuc is the very best but the caught swarm hive is close behind. Finally got a sticky board made for the Warre and it was a 23 for its very first count then a 10 today.

Tpope hive had been averaging 12s for a several weeks then it shot up to a 27 followed by 13, 18, 23 and 21 today. Not in 'Danger Will Robinson!' territory yet but I am concerned. 

Another difference is temperament, nadired my first lang last weekend. (Intrigued by the management of a Warre not the size...) Wanted to save some drawn comb from my recent dead out before the wax moths got them, so put a deep under the strongest 'new' hive. Found they are quite pissy and require smoke. 8 or 9 'through the suit' stings while I was working on it. Then 2 more Wednesday (with smoke) just fixing a misaligned entrance reducer. Probably would have went better if I had added the box three weeks ago while I was feeding them. 

Saturday daughter and son-in-law worked on a second (non electric...) fence in front of the hives for several hours with no problem. I walked out to see them (no suit) and got got nailed in the ear within seconds. They also hold a long grudge and recognize people. None of the stings, even the ear, was nearly as painful as the bumble bee a few months ago.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Starting to see differences in my new Dunwoody bees verses the ones from Tpope.


William:

Thank you for your posts- I look forward to comparing notes with you on mite drop counts at various points in the season and over the development life-cycle of a particular colony.

It is of great interest to me personally to see if there are any particular trends that seem to emerge with the modicum of resistance that seems to manifest itself in some populations here in the Southeast- at least anecdotally.

Is it controlling mite population growth, tolerance to vectored viruses, hygienic behavior a combination of all or something else entirely?

Thanks for sharing what you are observing. 

Russ


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## tpope (Mar 1, 2015)

If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.. Great job on learning how to become a beekeeper William. You'll figure out what type of bee furniture works best for your style of beekeeping.

We are getting near to the start of pollen flow and a bit of nectar from willows and maples. I was noticing yesterday how the trees here are showing color on the ends of limbs.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Furniture? I have to buy furniture too!?  Mine have bringing in pollen every warm day all winter including this weekend. Small baskets, various colors. No idea where they are finding it but they do. Not seen any bees on plants on our property since the first hard freeze. They were all over the tea bushes until then. A few henbit blooming, apparently not enough to attract their attention yet.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Off work today and drove up to Barnyard Bees for the first time in well over a year. Wife was thrilled I only spent $32.  Found out they are moving to a larger store soon. Hope both they and the tiny little start up bee supply five minutes away continue to grow!

Warm day and all seven were active. Four hives and one nuc in the bee yard more so than the two nucs up by the house. Hope it is just the partial shade / slightly cooler making the difference. Hive with Tpope bees most active, dark Dunwoody bees a close second. 

First full baskets of pollen I have seen in months so things are blooming here. Various trees starting to bud...


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> First full baskets of pollen I have seen in months so things are blooming here. Various trees starting to bud...


Good update, William. Glad to hear that the pollen is incoming down your way. Means it won't be long until we can say the same up here.

Best of success to you in this 2021 beekeeping season.

Russ


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Finally took the beginner beekeeping class through my local club last weekend. Had signed up for the March 2020 class. It snowed that day so we did not go. Yes, I'm chicken like that! 

Pretty basic stuff but did pick up a few important local timings. Short follow up apiary visit at the instructors farm the next day. Got home and peeked in the weakest of the two nucs up at the house. Still has plenty of stores but only two seams of bees.

So today stole a frame with some capped brood out of a strong hive to boost it. Glad I picked the one I did, nuc was down to two facing patches of brood the size of a coffee cup! Donor frame had a slightly larger patch on both sides and in approximately the same location near one end. Will see what happens... Can do this again in a week or two if needed. 

Debating whether to move both nucs back with the others or leave them up here. Moved them last fall due to robbing. No electric fence up here and not going build another expensive electric boondoggle. Do enjoy having some of them close, wife even wants them closer to the house so she can watch them through the windows. Whole front of the house is South facing windows and it would be a lot easier to cobble up a mini fence if they were tight up against the house. 

Nucs are easy to move in either direction if robbing or SHB's or whatever is the problem of the day. Decisions, decisions...

Oh, bought a 4' x 8' Harbor Freight trailer. Step side pickup and buying 
plywood for bee stuff (or house projects) has been a royal pain the past 
few years.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Weak little nuc is still holding on. Strong TB nuc beside it was wash-boarding a bit today. Seems way early in the season to me? Guessing it is over crowded and needs splitting or moved to a lang. (See little_john has posted a nice tutorial in the top bar forum) Do plan to split until I run out of equipment as soon as drones are flying.

Working on a wax dipping tank. Picked up 250 LBs of 140 degree melt paraffin and 110 LBs of gum rosin earlier this week. Just ordered an 85 gallon salvage drum. ID is 3 inches larger than the OD of a standard 55 gallon drum or 26" Since the diagonal of a 10 frame lang is 25 3/4" I'm hoping for two stacked and a third nested just like a rectangular tank. If not, will not be the most expensive boondoggle I have ever built. Still a little cheaper than fabricating a tank and much much faster.

Psst, we are being watched. Some other bee forum seems to think traffic on this sub forum is an indication of interest (or lack there of) in TF beekeeping. No idea if they actually read our blathering, but <waves> hi to the lurkers.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Last year I had a couple of hives right up against the house. Pretty calm bees and never caused the slightest trouble. I took to sitting out in the sun with my coffee a few feet from the entrances just to watch the bees. Some bees you can't do that with.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Working on a wax dipping tank.


William: If you get it working, I expect this might be a nice little side hustle for you.

I'd certainly pay to not have to paint- this past winter cured me of looking forward to painting stuff.

Best of luck to you this season.

Russ


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

AR1 Yes, a cup of coffee and watching critters in the morning! Occasionally get to enjoy watching bats returning to their roost behind our house. No stress, no click counter, just watching and enjoying the moment.

Bees get up too late for that 'first cup' but are active all day. All but one of my hives are gentle enough to work with out smoke. Will be careful to not make any weak splits from that one. 

Russ, not so much a side hustle for now. Getting close to retirement and will want some income then. Have a few years to gauge local interest and buy what I will need for then.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Last weekend moved my top bar nuc to a lang (Thanks to little_john in the other thread!) Have a co-worker who wants to get into beekeeping cheap. (Yes, I know...) May split back into it in a few weeks if he still wants what he think he wants. Peeked in most of the other hives...

Today added a third frame of capped brood to the weak little nuc. Think it is going to make it now, had me worried a month ago. Added a few empty frames (OSBN) to two hives and one nuc today to hold them off until time to split. Plan to split until I run out of equipment in a few weeks. Will keep you posted how many I end up with.

Now have an 85 gallon 'salvage drum' for my wax dipping tank. Still need a burner, thermometer, gloves, fire extinguisher, etc... In a race to get it finished before I have to use most of my new equipment. Pollen trap and Snellgrove board are not coming out of the box until they go in the dipping tank!

Oh, the nuc from the Dunwoody bees that is supposed to be VSH. It has a marked queen! Big girl with a blue dot on her back. Thrilled to see her for the first time today. Surprised it was blue, only bought them in June so he had not had it very long.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Pollen trap and Snellgrove board are not coming out of the box until they go in the dipping tank!


I've used the same logic in my own operation at times- quite a motivator, but sometimes falls apart when other stuff starts falling down around my ears and I am unable to get to the self-imposed critical path item before I find I am in need of the thing that is next in line.

Sounds like you are off and running- I'll look forward to see what your Q/R colony count looks like in a month or so. Hopefully it exceeds your expectations.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Made a couple of splits today, if the queens hatch and get mated will be at nine colonies total. Small Dunwoody hive with the VSH queen split into three. While I do not want any to end up in the trees (or neighbors houses...) felt like she was the most important not to loose. Marked and I spotted her two weeks ago, just not today should know tomorrow exactly where she is. All three have at least two queen cells. None as big as I was seeing in some of the bigger hives.

OSBN plus stealing frames for weaker hives and today's split will hopefully keep my big Tpope hive from swarming again this year. Can not count on catching her (if she was not superseded) a second time. Very gentle and productive bees! Deep and two mediums they over wintered on has the top super almost full. Tiny patch of brood on the very bottom of one center frame, (Have not used a queen excluder yet) Even robbed one frame for a spoon taste test  Bit of green syrup in a few places so would be hard to extract anyway. Will feed back whatever is left.

Big Dunwoody lang is still pissy. A bit less so today since it was a warm sunny day and I did not wait too late in the day to look. Almost hope they do swarm! Not really, but do hate that they hold a grudge for at least a week every time I work them. Can not walk near them with out getting bumped or worse. Oh, last year I nadired this hive with a deep from my dead out. They are mostly using it for nectar drying and almost nothing capped. Brood and capped stores are all in the top two deeps. 

Slow progress on my wax dipping tank. Got my burner yesterday so can start putting every thing together soon.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Have you considered putting a new queen in that pissy hive?


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Big Dunwoody lang is still pissy. A bit less so today since it was a warm sunny day and I did not wait too late in the day to look. Almost hope they do swarm! Not really, but do hate that they hold a grudge for at least a week every time I work them. Can not walk near them with out getting bumped or worse.


Good update, William.

Had a colony like this a few years ago and they were the only one like it in the yard. They did ultimately swarm and the colony has been very reasonable ever since.

In these one-off situations, it makes me wonder if it is the result of outbreeding between a colony of relatively 'pure' genetic origin with other subspecies- the so-called F2 aggression: F2 Aggression in Honey Bees

Good luck with your wax tank- sounds like you are making steady progress.

Russ


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

AR1 said:


> Have you considered putting a new queen in that pissy hive?


Yes, and may do that later this year. Know two beeks with VSH breeder queens and both have promised to sell me a daughter or two. *If* they raise any to sell... 

Russ, think you are correct on the aggression. Four of the five hives I bought that day are from swarms, so he had close neighbors with bees. These are darker than any of the others so likely a cross off of Russians or possibly Buckfast.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Splits made last weekend are doing well, one much weaker than the other two so will do some equalizing soon.

Took a day of vacation Wednesday and luckily noticed a swarm. Same small tree as last year but a different branch. Pretty sure it was not from either of the two largest langs. (Tpope or Dunwoody) Obviously not the recent splits or the two small hives up at the house. That leaves the Warre or the top bar... So now at 10 and running out of equipment fast!

Got supers on the two largest hives, some stuff ordered and part of the garden planted. 10 hour days all week due to coworkers revenge for me taking vacation.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Time to start hammering emergency boxes together! I ran out last summer and it was highly annoying.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

AR1 said:


> Time to start hammering emergency boxes together! I ran out last summer and it was highly annoying.


Still have boxes and frames so it is gluing Popsicle sticks and stringing fishing line. Plus hoping my order from Dadent shows up. Two more bases which I'm almost out of plus some more 5.1 foundation. Trying a bit of every thing here, last year tried bamboo skewers. Think I like fishing line better but who knows what the bees will like...

@ Gray Goose. Did the cedar tree you mentioned in the other thread have any visual burl or canker where the swarms were landing? Agree it could be odor or visual or a combination of both. Our pathetic little diseased cherry tree just attracted another swarm Thursday. Second this year and this one back to the same limb as last years.

Plus wife informed me yesterday that we have one in the swarm trap. Not looked yet but she now knows the difference between occupancy and scouting so now up to 12 colonies. Have to take one shoe off to count them all


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Swarm in the trap is older (and was likely larger) than the two in the cherry tree. Only two frames per swarm trap protocol, one of which already has capped stores at the top, could not get a good look at the other. Large drawn comb most of the way across the lid. Yes, I have a mess to fix! Did manage to squeeze two two foundation-less frames on the opposite side. By myself and no place to set the lid down. Should have brought an empty hive body with me... BTW trap is on the roof  Flat roof but two stories up, so still have to get it lowered to the ground before I can do much else.

Same trap baited with foundation and lemon grass oil caught nothing last year. Old comb and Swarm Commander this year. Not quite ready to endorse Swarm Commander since these are almost certainly my own bees. Only had one hive during swarm season last year so lemon grass oil might have done as well.

Disappointed to find nothing drawn on the two supers I added a week ago. Waxed plastic 5.2 mm from Better Bee, stored inside the house wrapped in the paper that came with it. Did not add extra wax per their suggestion and we just had a cold snap this past week. Plus both of these hives may have just swarmed (Can not tell by the number of bees, both are packed!) and may be raising a new queen. There were some bees on the frames. Loafers? Just absolutely nothing drawn on any of the 20 frames.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Update on the very weak hive from two months ago,




Five second video of so many bees struggling to get in the top entrance at once they fall in a cluster. Amazing what a few frames of capped brood from strong hive will do! This is the split from Tpope's bees made last year. Was slow starting, seemed fairly strong for its size in the fall, but was one of two that were being robbed. Spent the winter (at 6 frames) in front of our house and was down to two tiny facing patches of brood just two months ago. Suppered it just after making the video.

Swarm trap with bees is now off the roof and in the apiary. Bought rubber bands today... Still have a mess to fix...

Peeked in the splits I made three weeks ago. One of them should have brood. Uh Oh! Did I roll the queen or drop her and step on her? Only one of the three was making the 'queen less roar' so perhaps I am worrying too much? Or not?

Got my small order from Dadent today so can pull two more rabbits out of my hat if necessary  Late and tired...


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> Swarm in the trap is older (and was likely larger) than the two in the cherry tree. Only two frames per swarm trap protocol, one of which already has capped stores at the top, could not get a good look at the other. Large drawn comb most of the way across the lid. Yes, I have a mess to fix!


It helps to have a bucket of warm water handy to rinse sticky honey off hands.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

AR1 said:


> It helps to have a bucket of warm water handy to rinse sticky honey off hands.


Add a towel or large rag to the list. Or better yet, an assistant beek in the opposite state of gloveness. Had to take my gloves off and back on six times for seven frames. (Finally got smart on the last two!) Too chicken to handle a floppy comb covered in bees with out gloves, and found it impossible to stretch rubber bands wearing gloves. In other news, used my bee brush for the first time today. Was starting to wonder why I wasted money on it.

Deed is done. Now hope they attach every thing well before they learn how to cut and remove rubber bands! 

Oh, Wednesday when I lowered the trap to the ground then moved it to the bee yard, two combs broke and fell. One with worker brood got wedged between fishing line and placed back in the hive. Will see how that goes... One with drone brood went to work for a coworkers chickens. Friday morning he excitedly showed me video of his chickens tearing it up and fighting for it.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

I have that job coming up. Or, I may decide to leave the two messed-up mediums together as a single unit and just ignore it for another year...I can put a box on top and expect they will build up into it then pull that off as a split. It's still a little cool here, frost 2 nights ago and temps in the 50s daytime, so hopefully have a few weeks to think about it still.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Peeked in all 12 today, adding frames or suppers as needed. Swarm / big mess / cut out from last weekend is doing good. Only took out three frames since I did not want to bother then too much. Only one was being attached at the top, but the other two had new comb being drawn beside the cut chunks. Works for me.

Pissy hive has calmed down! Positive it was the source of one of the four (known) swarms this year and none of the three caught swarms are showing signs of being evil. Apparently it was the one that went to the trees. Good riddance!

Unfortunately it has a replacement. One of the splits I made a month ago is now almost as bad. Split a 10 frame into three, two were five frames and a foam block in a 10 frame and one in an actual NUC. It was initially the weakest so two weeks ago I swapped it with the stronger of the other two. Today found it packed and with four frames of capped brood. So it is now seven in a 10 frame and moved one frame of capped to the now much weaker one it was swapped with two weeks ago. Bees are weird so I'm not going to kill myself trying to figure all of this out.

Also was in the Warre for the first time this year. Some weirdness going on in it as well, probably should ask about it over in the Warre forum.

Tired, happy to have a bunch of live bees! Need to get my (used) extractor I bought last year cleaned up and ready to go. Amazing how many friends, relatives, and coworkers now assume I am some kind of expert and should have honey for sale. If they only knew...


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> If they only knew...


My how I can identify with this... glad to read that things are progressing well for you.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Posted yesterdays disappointing find in the levitating bees thread. (Upward drawn comb crossing frames) Went back into a few today with the intentions of taking half the drawn (honey) comb from one hive and making multiple boxes of alternating drawn / un-drawn. So much under / over drawn plus some just plain wonky, did not get to do near as much alternating as I planed.

Pleasant surprise in one of the hives up at the house. The hive that was so weak in the spring I had to boost it with frames of brood. It has drawn, filled and capped an entire medium. Nice straight comb to boot! Not quite textbook perfect, but close enough for me. It now has two suppers fully alternated so even if they do not finish filling it should still get some more nicely drawn comb for next year.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Not quite textbook perfect, but close enough for me.


As long as you can get them out for inspection and they will fit in your extractor basket, I'd call it good enough .

I looked around for the 'levitating bees' thread- do you mind to point me in the right direction?


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Litsinger said:


> As long as you can get them out for inspection and they will fit in your extractor basket, I'd call it good enough .
> 
> I looked around for the 'levitating bees' thread- do you mind to point me in the right direction?


Bees levitate... Any thoughts??

Recently 'bumped' three year old thread.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Long overdue for an update. Not much besides weed eating until the past two weekends due to long hours at work and countless distractions. Did attempt a split from a top bar to a cathedral shortly after my last update five months ago. It was a disaster... Will try again next spring better prepared. Not sure if it counts as a summer loss since no queen was involved? Tiny little thing never had a chance and was robbed to death immediately. 

Last weekend did the 'tip test' and four were a little light. No problem, planned to fall feed anyway. Other eight were "oh **** what did they do with the honey they had!" Did not harvest this year other than a couple of frames for spoon testing. Got feed on half of them, ran out of feeder shims. Bought extra rapid feeders in the spring but forgot about shims.

Started a batch of shims today but too many distractions to finish. Will get feed on the other six soon even if I have to move stuff around. Have three frame style feeders but do not like them. Old, came with used equipment and all are deeps. So not only do they drown bees do not work well with a medium over deep set up.

Hopefully will not be five months till the next update.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Again long overdue for an update. Have mentioned in other threads recently about my losses. 8 of 12  Obviously mites were a big factor, think being late getting feed on them hurt a bit as well. And the SHB were certainly not helping. Late fall when it first got cold found that nearly empty rapid feeders make good beetle traps. At least three had dozens in them, not sure if the bees ran them in or they went in on their on.

Back up to ten hives. Split all 4 survivors, 3 early and 1 late. Caught one swarm on the same little cherry tree that had 1 in 2020 and 2 in 2021. Likely from the late split since it had lots of queen cells. And bought a package of Carniolans. Ordered them in the fall before thread about pupal cannibalism. Yup, hygienic, not VSH. Oh well, time will tell...

Today was weird, started and finished the day with 10 hives, but one is not the same hive. Off today and returning to the bee yard to finish the last bit of weed-eating 'suited up' wife hollers to run look. Obvious swarmish behavior but they were clustering underneath the stand. Initial though was the package might have a clipped queen that could not fly. Decided to let them settle before doing anything. Hour or two later it was obvious they had found a way into a stack of 3 unused deeps. Muttered a few choice words since I'm out of 10 frame bottoms and telescoping tops...

Back at the house lit the smoker and started to equalize one of the splits. Been meaning to do this for well over a month... Weak side had absalutly no brood! No capped brood, no larva, just a 1/4 pound or so of bees that were still playing house. This solved my other problem so I shook them out and took the top and bottom down to use with today's swarm. These were not robbers since they are now clustered on the blocks where their hive used to be. Apparently have a non laying queen or they would have turned laying worker? Doubting myself I went and reinspected both sides of every frame that there was no brood. Still had capped green syrup from last falls feeding (of a different hive) robbers would have uncapped every thing and left a ragged mess. Also a few small patches of nectar. 

Late and I'm tired.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Muttered a few choice words since I'm out of 10 frame bottoms and telescoping tops...


William:

Good update- I think we've all been here before. Glad it all worked out. What do you think of your Carniolans? How do they compare with the feral bees you've hived?


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Litsinger said:


> What do you think of your Carniolans?


So far see no difference. Hope is they will slow down brood production when the summer dearth hits. See second paragraph of post #62 above.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

William Bagwell said:


> These were not robbers since they are now clustered on the blocks where their hive used to be.


Still there this morning. Felt sorry for them, so now in a NUC


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

William Bagwell said:


> Still there this morning. Felt sorry for them, so now in a NUC


Now have a frame with some eggs. Will see if they make a queen. Would have had one three days ago, but had problems. The hive they were split from is the one that was transferred from a top bar NUC. Drywall screws to the top of lang frame, not rubber bands in an assembled frame. Big mess! Best I could do from that hive was a frame of capped brood.

Rare (for me) queen sighting today. Suck at queen spotting for some reason and think today was my first ever un-marked queen. Working left to right and there she was on frame number 8. Big girl too!


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> ...transferred from a top bar NUC. Drywall screws to the top of lang frame, not rubber bands in an assembled frame. Big mess!
> 
> Rare (for me) queen sighting today. Suck at queen spotting for some reason and think today was my first ever un-marked queen. Working left to right and there she was on frame number 8. Big girl too!


I can imagine the mess. 
Once you start seeing queens, it gets easier. The eye gets trained to spot the unusual movement. I use 2 methods, sort of unfocus the eyes and look at the whole frame at once, and unusual things can pop out. Or, concentrate on a small area at a time and look carefully at the bees. I think the first method works better for me.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Long overdue update. Started fall mite monitoring and of the five with sticky boards, (24 hour) a zero, a one, a two, a dead out being robbed, and a "holy poop batman!" Slight chance it is due to them being the hive robbing the other and they will pull it back down. Most likely they will get a thermal before the end of the month.

The two is my Carolinian package from this spring, so not bad for bees from a commercial source. Hygienic, not VSH.

Got the screens changed on my first four "Multifunctional hive base / beetle trap" doo jobbers. Need to get them in use and post a thread about them.

Email yesterday from my local club, Bob Binnie is going to be the guest speaker in October! Possibly a joint effort with another club since it will not be in our normal venue.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Got the screens changed on my first four "Multifunctional hive base / beetle trap" doo jobbers. Need to get them in use and post a thread about them.


I'll look forward to pictures on this- the low mite drops are certainly encouraging. Do your bees significantly slow brood rearing in the dearth?

I'd say any chance to hear Bob Binnie would be a good day.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Litsinger said:


> Do your bees significantly slow brood rearing in the dearth?


Based on bearding, not very much. Ashamed to admit I have not been into a hive recently. Do peek in the top through my patented 'mini observation domes' (empty rapid feeders ) quite often. Will be in at least five soon, four new bases plus a repaired plastic ScBB that came damaged. Might also move the one under the dead out, unless I find drones and try a late split. Have been know to do daft things like that...


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Based on bearding, not very much.


At least in my experience, bearding is not necessarily a sign of significant brood rearing, but rather a function of nectar curing. If you get a chance to dig-in, I'd be interested to hear about what you find.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Litsinger said:


> At least in my experience, bearding is not necessarily a sign of significant brood rearing, but rather a function of nectar curing.


Supposedly in a dearth here, apparently they are finding some nectar. Are there hard and soft dearths? Seen here many times how variable flows are, especially the fall flow. Was even discussed at my local meeting recently. Makes sense a dearth would variable as well, just never seen it mentioned.

See I'm up before the moderators have cleaned up. May go read somewhere else for a few hours and miss out on her other nine spams...

Edit: Gone.

Oh, my Multifunctional hive base / beetle trap is up in Equipment/Hardware.


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## Some Bloke (Oct 16, 2021)

Warre feeder: use a mini Ashworth feeder in the quilt box. Great device, can refill without bees flying out to defend their food source.

I am totally TF with ~7 hives but only 2 types (Warre, TBH), You're lucky to have spare parts for the Cathedral, they're v expensive.

Georgia is good bee country from what I hear.

The "Secret" to TF is to leave alone, don't feed, accept losses. After a year or two the poorly adapted colonies have died or crossbred with survivor ones. Feeding really disrupts them.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Are there hard and soft dearths? Seen here many times how variable flows are, especially the fall flow.


Good points- there is definitely variability to the dearth period, and bees that slow their brood rearing during the dearth have to do some calculus when determining when to ramp-up late summer winter bee rearing in preparation for the need.

It is interesting to see how one can observe open nectar backfilling the brood nest but not see any appreciable weight gain- in my mind the working definition of a flow (and thus the end of a dearth) from the beekeepers' perspective are periods of sustained colony weight gain which last for at least a couple of weeks.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Some Bloke said:


> Warre feeder: use a mini Ashworth feeder in the quilt box. Great device, can refill without bees flying out to defend their food source.
> 
> I am totally TF with ~7 hives but only 2 types (Warre, TBH), You're lucky to have spare parts for the Cathedral, they're v expensive.
> 
> ...


Just Googled Ashworth feeder and found an interesting site, Bee Feeders | Beespoke Info Compares four different types including two different rapid style. Standard round rapid (US) just barely fits in a Warre. Built a shim for mine, about the same size as the quilt box with a thin wood bottom instead of cloth. Never got around to rebuilding the quilt box... 

Looks like you just read the whole thread? Probably going to sell the Warre and both top bars, eventually the Cathedral after I play with it a bit. None work with my back up thermal and I'm not going to use chemicals for just those. Georgia might be nice bee country, but Atlanta is not. At least for full on TF and I'm a bit to close to metro Atlanta.

Did minimal feeding my first year, way more than intended last year. Looking like this year will be minimal again, lots of heavy supers were moved twice each today.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Dead out confirmed, so down to ten with one summer loss. Also full of wax moth larva  Wife's goldfish are not that crazy about them, several ate just one then apparently told the others "Hey, these ain't earthworms!" Did the same with some drone larva a few months ago. Picky fish! That hive took a ride today to visit coworkers chickens.

All four new bases now installed on the largest hives, including the one that had the high count. 15 today. Still way too high for my liking.

Saw minimal brood in larger hives, none in the two weakest. Should have equalized a few months ago...


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

William Bagwell said:


> That hive took a ride today to visit coworkers chickens.


His chickens loved their treat! He spent way more time than I intended, worried about all sorts of things that would not matter... Own him some honey for his trouble. Oh, his koi were just like our goldfish, would eat one then not come back for more.

Monday when we moved hive from my truck to his there were a couple of bees. Gave it no thought since they could have been mine that came along for the ride. Yesterday for the reverse transfer there were a least a hundred! Guess where I'm going to have a mobile swarm trap next April?


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Got to hear Bob Binnie in person tonight! Main presentation was his "A Year In The Bee Yard" which is up on Youtube. Also got a sneak preview of a new one on old comb. He hopes to get it refined and posted in a few months. 

Guesstimating around 80+ beekeepers in attendance plus another 10 high school students all wearing bee 'deely bobbers'. Not sure if they were interested in bees or just earning extra credit... Nice crowd, far more than our usual and some from other clubs. Also not our usual venue which could not hold that many.


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