# deeps for honey supers



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Other than the weight, what are the plus/minus of useing deeps for all your honey supers.
Thanks for your input.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

A major plus is the combs are drawn out beautifully to become brood chambers in the future. 
Another, less box and frame handling during extracting in relationship to the amount of honey produced.
Brood in the super? Just swap it for a honey frame from the brood chamber.


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## Jon B (Apr 24, 2013)

I used deeps for many years as honey supers, but have switched to mediums. 

Advantages for using deeps:
Less frames to extract since two deeps equal three mediums
If you don't use queen excluders you can easily move frames of brood from the supers down to the lower boxes
All your equipment is uniform

Disadvantages for using deeps as supers:
A deep full of honey can weigh over eighty pounds
When using fume boards it takes much longer for the bees to leave a deep super before you can pull it


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

for us that only extract capped frames, many times they don't cap all of the frames. If you treat with chemicals that you would't want in your honey, you have to keep the boxes and frames marked so you don't mix. I have to disagree with odfrank a bit, I find at times when I use deeps as honey supers, they have a tendency to draw more drone brood into the frames than if it was put on as the first or second deep for brood(using beeswax foundation). ok for storing honey but to many drones when used as a brood chamber.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I have run deeps almost exclusively for honey since deciding to grow in the bees. I also only use plasticell foundation. I have never noticed the bees making more drone comb in the deep supers with the plasticell foundation. In fact the only time I notice them drawing out drone comb on new frames is when they get goofy cause they are not on a good honey flow and they do alot of bridge comb and other goofy ways to atttaching comb to frames.

Advantages to deeps over mediums:
Cost less in boxes as medium complete are only a little cheaper than deeps. Frames and foundation cost just about the same and the box is like 2 or 3 bucks cheaper. 
My next season brood chambers are drawn out on honey flows
All boxes are uniform
Less frames to extract

Disadvantage: 

They are heavy when full of honey
they are harder to remove bees
They take longer to warm in this time of year to extract honey


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

The advantages of deeps far outweighed the only disadvantage, which was weight. So I made my decision and went on my merry way. When I tried to pull my first full deep off at chest height, I kicked myself for not listening to Mr. Bush and starting the migration to mediums…. Thank god I didn't have 50 deeps to try and pull off.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We have pretty much exclusively run mediums primarily because of the weight issue. It makes it easier to find help pulling honey and extracting. A few years ago we started building and drawing out about 500 deeps per year to rotate into our brood nests. What has happened is we have ended up with about 1,000 extra deep supers and have discovered that despite the weight they are way less work running through an automated system and we can run about 20% more honey per day. Yes its still more of a hastle to get the bees out of them but it has definitely got me rethinking our whole program.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Jim have you ever considered getting one of those EZYloaders that IAN uses for pulling the deeps off the hives? I thought that might be a nice practical way of saving my back but currently I cant afford one of those so I guess I will destroy my back until I can.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Robbin said:


> Thank god I didn't have 50 deeps to try and pull off.


 You should try 100 deeps a day for a week or so. Thats what makes my back sore and tired.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

BMAC said:


> Jim have you ever considered getting one of those EZYloaders that IAN uses for pulling the deeps off the hives? I thought that might be a nice practical way of saving my back but currently I cant afford one of those so I guess I will destroy my back until I can.


I guess not seriously. We space our bee pallets so that a custom made honey pallet can sit in the middle of the yard and then you just need to carry them a few steps to set them DOWN. Then just use the ole Hummer to set them up on the truck. Its pretty efficient, most days 2 men can usually pull around 10 pallets or 420 mediums, more if the hives are really stacked up.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Keith,

Deeps are great for honey supers. The only drawback is the weight. It is tough getting that 6[SUP]th[/SUP] or 7[SUP]th[/SUP] deep back up on the hive once they are full. 

In my experience bees seem to fill them faster in the spring when we get our intense spring flows. Admittedly, I run most mediums for honey now, but I used to run all deeps. If I could start all over again, I would run all 8 frame deeps. Maybe someday I will make the change! 

Joe


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BMAC said:


> Disadvantage:
> They take longer to warm [at] this time of year to extract honey


Stand them on end in your hot room. Elevate them closer to the ceiling.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Stand them on end in your hot room. Elevate them closer to the ceiling.


We have a heated floor and double deck our honey pallets (stacked 7 mediums or 5 deeps per pallet). Interestingly enough we have discovered that the pallets on the floor warm faster than those on the second layer (and we leave a several inch gap between pallets for air flow). I guess it shows that conductive heat from the floor warms boxes faster than the slightly higher temps the upper pallets would be exposed to.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I have both deeps and mediums. I like the deeps better, they seem to fill them better. Maybe I don't expect them to be filled as fast as them mediums??!! I also have 8-frame hives.

It is also nice to have only one size frame in a hive.

Tom

PS No one would confuse me with a commercial beekeeper.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Having only run deeps since deeps where invented, I can not make an honest comparison.

I can not imagine having 2 different sized frames. We run a single deep brood chamber, and move frames of brood around, both in the hive, and between hives. Different sized frames would cramp our style. Supers are removed when they are mostly capped, so most hives peak at one brood and 3 supers. We pull honey all summer. Yes they are heavy, but we are not small people.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Roland, any idea of the average weight of your deeps when full?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I think the biggest determining factor whether to use deeps or mediums is the volume of honey potentially to flow in. If your looking at collecting 200+ lbs per hive within a two month period, deeps are a must. If your looking at collecting 50 or less lbs throughout a few months, mediums are needed. 
I would definitely see having both as being very annoying.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

All in all, we all say standardize everything but more and more i'm observe beekeepers using the most peculiar hive arrangements. 

Just recently I run into a beekeeper who runs a one and a half wintering hive arrangement. That's pretty common but his half hive body has its frames running the short way in the box. I didn't ask him why, looked funny. His hives are as strong as mine so that arrangement certainly works well. Just can't see the practicality in it. 

What am I trying to say? Use whatever the heck works !


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## Sadler91 (Nov 6, 2011)

I am considering using nothing but Deeps in the future. I currently run mediums for honey and deeps for the hive. My only concern is trying to store the deep comb. Always seems harder to keep the bugs out of the deeps as opposed to the mediums. Any advice in that regard? Hard to keep the bugs out in Florida.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Might be impractical for some, 
We store a lot of beekeeping equipment in semi trailers, keeps things high and dry. One of our trailers is a reefer, pulled out of use but works well enough for me. 
During the summer, I'll run it a few days once a month to freeze out the wax moth. If I happen to run into surplus brood chambers throughout the summer this reefer gives me a fighting chance to preserve them til next years use.
Smaller cargo vans with cooling units are dime a dozen


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian's suggestion is a good one and something I have been considering myself. Currently any brood combs from hive failures get stacked up on a strong hive and don't get brought in until the weather cools in the fall. Our extracting comb rarely has moth issues as excluders keep them virtually pollen free.


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## Honey Hive Farms (Nov 1, 2012)

We have so many we sometimes put them in a container and suck the oxygen out of them. 
Put them on crystals helps keep the moths out, but watch the pollen and hive beetles, they like that pollen. There are some old school guys that have to ideas on this, I tried one this year hope it works.
There is also a spray you can spray your frames with and keeps the wax moths off them, but you want to get the correct one, and sorry I can not think of it right now, never used it yet.
Good luck


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## Sadler91 (Nov 6, 2011)

Honey Hive Farms, could you explain how you suck the oxygen out of the container. I assume a big vacuum pump?


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

We use mostly deeps for honey. It is harder to blow the bees out of a deep. The 7 5/8 is the "Perfect"super but unfortunately pierco does not make that size foundation. 

So where is Keith going to make his honey at? Dakotas or Montana?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Shake those bees and send them to the flowers!


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

At 71 yrs and a very bad back, I am very thank full that the good lord told me to run mediums. A friend said he runs deeps because his dad did and his granddad did. I assume it was a genetic defect in the family.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

RAK said:


> So where is Keith going to make his honey at? Dakotas or Montana?


I think he's waiting for the border to open and going to Manitoba


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I think he's waiting for the border to open and going to Manitoba


As long as he brings a truck load of sub with him. Might as well make that trip worth the while!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What else does Keith use?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I rejected deeps as honey supers immediately due to weight alone.

The issue of extraction can be a bit fuzzy. there are 30 med frames to every 20 deeps. but in my extractor I can place 6 med fraems or 3 deeps. So in all I can extract my 30 med frames in 5 loads or extract the 20 deep frames in 7.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Sounds like a lightweight Italian extractor. My dadant extractors can hold 32 shallows or deep frames. In fact if I get creative I can double stack both in it and run closer to 60 frames a run.

For you however the mediums would be faster to extract obviously as I am sure when you run the 3 frame deeps its run in a tangent fashion as opposed to the radial 6 frame fashion.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

"At 71 yrs and a very bad back, I am very thank full that the good lord told me to run mediums"

Amen to that! I have finally converted all my deep supers to brood boxes, and will never use anything but mediums for honey again. My back and shoulders just couldn't take the deeps any more.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

loggermike said:


> "At 71 yrs and a very bad back, I am very thank full that the good lord told me to run mediums"
> 
> Amen to that! I have finally converted all my deep supers to brood boxes, and will never use anything but mediums for honey again. My back and shoulders just couldn't take the deeps any more.


I hear ya, I'm 60 and hefting 70 pound boxes isn't as easy as it used to be but in our situation where you are keeping up with a Cowen uncapper,you only have to handle (and scrape) 2 deeps in the same time frame as 3 mediums. We also use a forklift to raise them to an ideal lifting height so the only lifting required in the extracting room is to move them a few feet to the deboxer. at that point everything else is automated with fewer frames moving through the uncapper and longer extractor run times, fewer loads and fewer empty boxes to unload on the other end.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Do you have one of those big platform pallet elevators?

A friend of mine here in NY stacks his supers on individual pallets which he sets on an elevator at the uncapping station. All he has to lift is the frames out of the deep box and then the empty box. Of course, that's in the Honey House. Out in the field is when the deeps are handled by hand.


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## busy bee apiary (Aug 7, 2010)

RAK said:


> So where is Keith going to make his honey at? Dakotas or Montana?


Texas?

Deeps are the most efficient any way you look at it.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Do you have one of those big platform pallet elevators?
> 
> A friend of mine here in NY stacks his supers on individual pallets which he sets on an elevator at the uncapping station. All he has to lift is the frames out of the deep box and then the empty box. Of course, that's in the Honey House. Out in the field is when the deeps are handled by hand.


No I wish I did, I presume you are talking about the type with a revolving platform on top. We just use a basic warehouse forklift. We bring them in from the hot room and set them on the floor, after we have taken the top ones off we lift them up off the floor. It does require starting the forklift quite a few times through the day.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You don't have an electric one?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

No it's propane. It's a 3000 lb capacity, it's tough to find good used units that small, most are 5,000 lb. + brutes. They need to be about 36" wide so they fit within the footprint of a 40"x48" pallet. I found a CAT at a nearby dealer with only 3,000 hours for $8,000. The "holy grail" is one like that with pneumatic tires that can operate either on or off a concrete floor. I gave up on that quest.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Apparently not an electric forklift. I never had to start one of those, just turn the key and zoom zoom.

Yes I like the lazy suzanne pallet lifters. That is something I need to invest in, but I have no deboxer and such. So I just lift my frames out one at a time and run them thru my ever old Dakota Gunness uncapper. So as I near the bottom I have to bend over alot and the ones in the back get man handled to the front.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ya I got one of those platform lift tables last year, quite a treat. I use pallets of 30 deeps, run it up to the extractor head with the lift truck onto the lift table. It frees the lift truck to work elsewhere in the facility. My guys just love it!


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

If I was commercial operation with lifting equipment, I'd probably look at Deeps to standardize on. 

However, since I'm still small potatoes. The few deep honey supers that I have used are pain to lift and deal with. Some of my yards are quite a ways from the truck....


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Jon B said:


> I used deeps for many years as honey supers, but have switched to mediums.
> 
> Advantages for using deeps:
> Less frames to extract since two deeps equal three mediums
> ...


x2

I use westerns as 5th box because it is so high.



BMAC said:


> You should try 100 deeps a day for a week or so. Thats what makes my back sore and tired.


But, it is way better then the health club. I loose weight during a honey flow and build up.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

EastSideBuzz said:


> But, it is way better then the health club. I loose weight during a honey flow and build up.


I take a lot of iburprofen. Guess I'm getting old.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

If I was young and strong, I would make the same decision I made then, and that is to use all deeps because they are virtually the same cost and it is just plain cheaper to run and faster to extract deeps. Now that I am old, fat and only strong for the first lift, and don't have to turn a profit, I wish I had mediums only.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

SQKCRK - don't know the exact weight of a full deep, just that it is a heck of a lot less than my ex-wife.

Crazy Roland


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Other than the weight, what are the plus/minus of useing deeps for all your honey supers.
> Thanks for your input.


I do declare............Hell does freeze over. Occasionally that is. 

I am laying on the floor with the keyboard as I can not get myself up.:lpf:

Has Mr. Blue boxes reached the age where he might even consider the inclusion of a ............... sh............ do I dare say the word.......... Shallo* or mediu* in his operation? 

I been waiting 20 years for this day........ Finally!! :thumbsup:

All the logical reason have already been listed so I'm going to pass on that discussion. 

If you do decide to go with the "small" boxes I would be willing to purchase your first frame as an official welcome to the "old man" club. Even willing to drop it off for free on my next run for sub.



Anyone else want to pitch in so the hunch back of Sutter Creek can get back to "lovin" bees?


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## mnbeekeeper (Jun 30, 2010)

too funny!!! im young, dumb, and going to run deeps until I can no longer pick them up. so much faster and easier when all frames and boxes are the same size. like some one said, got a frame of brood in the honey super take it out and swap it for a honey frame in brood chamber. every year I draw out new deep comb, next year in the brood chamber they go. 

on a side note, If I hired all my help I would probably run shallows or mediums, its hard to find people to work bees let alone pick up heavy deeps of honey all day. ha good luck. 

on a hot day in august there is no time difference in my opinion on how long it takes for bees to go out. but if your not in the sun or its barley 70 degrees then you will have to wait longer.

another thing, if you don't get a honey crop and your taking empty boxes off, its much faster to take off less deeps than taking off layer after layer of empty shallow. sad but it happens to the best of us


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Roland said:


> SQKCRK - don't know the exact weight of a full deep, just that it is a heck of a lot less than my ex-wife.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Blah ha ha ha


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

Phil I love your post. I have a couple bottles of ALEVE that I was going to bring to him at the California state bee meeting this month in Tahoe but I can't get away?guess I will have to mail it?Do you know if the post office offers easy open packages for SENIORS ?





Honey-4-All said:


> I do declare............Hell does freeze over. Occasionally that is.
> 
> I am laying on the floor with the keyboard as I can not get myself up.:lpf:
> 
> ...


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

My one season of experience with deeps, has shown that the bees have the tendency of making some serious cross combs, when going foundationless. Deeps probably make sense for the commercial guys, getting paid per frame of bees and such. I did 13 cutouts this year, and found it difficult to fill the deep frames in any manner of completeness. The hives that get built in cavities that I removed, were rarely filled with enough long combs to constitute banding them into deep frames, and the bees struggled to reattach and and fill them out. 

Only one hive that I removed and placed in a 5 frame deep nuc expanded enough to fill out a double deep. That being said, the combs are perfect and it is my best hive.


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## dback (Jan 8, 2012)

JSL said:


> Keith, It is tough getting that 6[SUP]th[/SUP] or 7[SUP]th[/SUP] deep back up on the hive once they are full. Joe


Just move your bees here Joe......never have too worry about that again


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I've only ever used deeps for everything, and my whole management style is around being able to interchange stuff.

I have assisted outfits using mediums and the amount of extra handling etc to me, outweighs any benefits.

However now I'm older and less fit, I'm struggling to lift a full deep off a tall hive, and have been thinking about mediums. But last honey harvest a guy helped me, we lifted 2 guys to a box and surprising how quick and easy that was. Years ago I thought that would be totally wimpish but it worked, and will save all the drama of messing with 2 different size gear. I'll hire some help each harvest doesn't even have to be a beekeeper just someone fit and prepared to wear a bee suit, and do it this way.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Years ago I thought that would be totally wimpish but it worked, and will save all the drama of messing with 2 different size gear. I'll hire some help each harvest doesn't even have to be a beekeeper just someone fit and prepared to wear a bee suit, and do it this way.


OT,

I'd never want ot be 25 again if I had to give up what I've learned at the school of hard knocks!

Tom


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I would like to have the ability to walk when I am older, so I run mediums for honey , except for the first honey super , I use a deep to get new comb for rotating my comb to keep diseases out of the hive , From what I am told Comb rotation is a key to healthy Bees . Get that old black comb out and new stuff in ASAP.

I find it so hard to buy new comb from the corner store these days


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Dback,

I think I would rather wrestle those deeps back up on the hive than contend with AHB. Although your “winters” are great!

Joe


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Thanks for the replies, even #46 & 49,  I figured that if I stuck my head too far out from underneath the bus somebody would wack it.

P.S. wouldn't have expected anything less.lol


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