# Updated "$8" Swarm Trap



## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Is this not the same as a DCOATES five frame nuc?


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

G3farms said:


> Is this not the same as a DCOATES five frame nuc?


No, sir. These are quite a bit deeper to be used as swarm traps. I did use his dimension for the width to allow ample room for 5 frames though.


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

They look pretty much the same as the plans for the 5 frame nuc boxes I'm making that were provided by forum members here. I'm using 3/4" for durability but on a swarm box I guess it dosen't matter. I do question if the volume is sufficient-I thought you'd want to be around the size of a 10 frame deep but ask 10 beekeepers and get 11 different opinions.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

LarryBud said:


> They look pretty much the same as the plans for the 5 frame nuc boxes I'm making that were provided by forum members here.


These are 17-3/4" deep. I suspect your nuc boxes are not quite that tall.



LarryBud said:


> I do question if the volume is sufficient-I thought you'd want to be around the size of a 10 frame deep but ask 10 beekeepers and get 11 different opinions.


A 10-frame deep is ~41.2 L in capacity. These are 5-frames wide at 43 L capacity (42.989) with the space underneath reported to be "desirable" for bees.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I suggest none of you make special boxes for swarm traps because you will eventually need a standard box to move the swarm into. Might as well make a standard box to begin with and not end up with a one purpose box in storage that is not usable as a standard hive box. Having caught hundreds of baited swarms in boxes filled with a full set of drawn comb, I can tell you for sure that baiting swarms does not require empty air space.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

If you do not have bees (or extra equipment) and want bees, you need to get them somehow. I left these here in case anyone else was in a similar position as me. Use them or not.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

odfrank said:


> I suggest none of you make special boxes for swarm traps because you will eventually need a standard box to move the swarm into. Might as well make a standard box to begin with and not end up with a one purpose box in storage that is not usable as a standard hive box. Having caught hundreds of baited swarms in boxes filled with a full set of drawn comb, I can tell you for sure that baiting swarms does not require empty air space.


I have wondered about that. Good to hear confirmation from a pro.

Comb built hanging from the bottom of the frames or hanging from the roof makes a mess. I made a few swarm traps made to fit standard deep frames. I can use them as 5-frame nucs in a pinch, so not a big problem.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I expect that a nice seasoned box would be preferable. Most of the folks on here with more than a couple of years' experience are not looking for me to share with them how to make a box. For those for whom seasoned boxes are not in abundance, this may be of some help. It costs considerably less than a deep box, lid, and bottom, and will last until they have enough experience to tell the new folks what a sub-standard idea it is.

I don't think the space is there to wait for them to fill it out, it's there because there's some information indicating bees may find it preferential. In any case, the bees should be moved to their final home before they build comb underneath. As @odfrank points out, if you start them in a deep you don't have to move them. If you don't have a deep laying around as a spare, this will work for you since bees don't seem to be too snooty (judging by the nest in my eaves last year.)


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

You want those frames tight, so when you move the box off the tree they aren't sliding around and kill the queen.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

ifixoldhouses said:


> You want those frames tight, so when you move the box off the tree they aren't sliding around and kill the queen.


I have used door wedges to keep all of the frames pushed to one side when I was transporitng a hive. It seemed to work well enough to keep the frames from moving


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## Johnnymms (Feb 7, 2020)

ifixoldhouses said:


> You want those frames tight, so when you move the box off the tree they aren't sliding around and kill the queen.


I have built the boxes with the original plans I found on here a few years ago. Always felt tight getting the frames in and out. I always thought to myself that I wish there was a little more room to pull the frames. But now I see that the design with less space makes sense. A swarm trap gets put through more commotion than a regular hive body. Less free space will keep things tighter and the bees safer. Whether this was a purposeful design choice or the byproduct of trying to squeeze 3 boxes out of 1 sheet we probably won't know. The result is the same. Tighter frames is a good thing.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

A wedge works, wedge one side to keep it all tight.
pull the wedge first then pry the frames out. A wad of beeswax also works.

IMO the bees should only be in the trap a week or so, they do not propolize things too much in the short time.

GG


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

I move them out as soon as I see them, before they orientate to the spot.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

I've had luck with deep boxes with medium frames in them. Used boxes definitely work better than new wood. I usually put one old comb and 9 foundationless frames. My first year trapping I had no frames. They moved in and built some of the most beautiful comb hanging from the lid. I have always left them alone until I see pollen going in, but that leads to lots of foragers returning to the site after I've moved them. I might have to try moving them immediately going forward.


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## Hoot Owl Lane Bees (Feb 24, 2012)

If you don't have drawn frames to use, glue popsicle sticks in the open frames. They will draw the frame down and not attach to the lid.
I take the extra time and move mine just at dark or after. When the sun comes up the next day they are in a new location setting on the hive they will be moved in to in the next day or so.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

I move them at night too. My issue is most of my traps hang on my own property. I catch them in back, but they only get moved a few acres away from the original bait hive location. I always have bees return to that site. I've even tried moving them 5 miles away for a week or two. Still get stragglers, but not as many. What I have not tried is moving them the first evening after I discover they are in the trap.


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## garlorco (Jun 25, 2019)

Lee Bussy said:


> I found the $8 swarm trap (now $12 at $36/sheet for CDX) and found it wanting in a couple of areas. Most notably, there's not a lot of room for 5 frames, especially if you give the bees time to glue them in.
> 
> Here is an updated design, with the following features:
> 
> ...


Nice innovation. Thanks for your work and sharing it.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Nice!

This will get people started.

Thanks for making the effort.


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## jdr84 (Oct 12, 2017)

thanks for the specs, its appreciated!


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

might I suggest integrating cleats of some sort for the face/rear as well? I've made tons of these and the lids almost always warp - four cleats around the lid have prevented the top from weathering/bowing and exposing the frames interior.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Hoot Owl Lane Bees said:


> If you don't have drawn frames to use, glue popsicle sticks in the open frames. They will draw the frame down and not attach to the lid.
> I take the extra time and move mine just at dark or after. When the sun comes up the next day they are in a new location setting on the hive they will be moved in to in the next day or so.


+1 to both ideas.

move after dark > 3 miles

and put in frames, any frames, the 1 and 10 spot of a deep can get a medium, the combs the mice chew with holes are prefect, worst case empty frames. 1 frame of dark comb 9 frames of junk.
If when you get a swarm, peel the crappy frames off till you hit the cluster add good ones. the peel offs go back in the next trap box. If they "fix" 2 or 3 frames then good. 

Next

GG


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## chiara (Feb 14, 2017)

This is what I use. Double Nuc. They are the D Coats design with cleats on the top and bottom of the "supers". You get a little bur comb between boxes but not much. This swarm was caught this afternoon.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Swarm season already! I have no idea when it starts up here, but I'm ready.


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## Tom McCaffery (Mar 31, 2021)

I’ve caught 4 swarms over the last 2 seasons and none have went into the box. They draw out comb on the bottom. I’m thinking the swarm commander on the wick which is hung inside the box is too strong? Should I turn box a quarter and put new entrance hole. I’ve tried some drawn comb only 4 frames, 10 frames to no avail. I’m thinking scrape and prime and paint bottom to remove scent of previous swarms?


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Put the swarm commander or what ever lure you are using on the outside. 
For the inside use old dark wax, slumgum or propolis.

If it smells good to us it must be overpowering to the bees.

Just my take on it.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Tom McCaffery said:


> I’m thinking scrape and prime and paint bottom to remove scent of previous swarms?


Absolutely not, getting them there is 75% of the battle.



Tom McCaffery said:


> I’m thinking the swarm commander on the wick which is hung inside the box is too strong?


I use 1 pump of the spray bottle, on the lid inside. any more seems to not work for a month or so. so yes it is easy to use too much.
So drill a hole in the bottom, center, where the cluster is located, they then would "go up" wandering around the corner may be the issue.

IMO the swarm looks to be a bit big to fit inside, consider adding an empty supper under the box you have.
Make sure there is no "bad" smells like mouse pee or oil etc. about 5 pounds is all that I get in a 10 deep.
that one looks close to 8

keep trying you are close, they come, just need them to enter.

GG


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## Tom McCaffery (Mar 31, 2021)

So I will put the wick on the outside and drill a hole on the underside and see how I fair. Thanks for the suggestions.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Tom McCaffery said:


> So I will put the wick on the outside and drill a hole on the underside and see how I fair. Thanks for the suggestions.


have a couple of each,, compare at season end, did the new thing help?

trial and error mostly

just looking at your pic, I had the gut feel if they had a hole up into a cavity with a comb they would go in.


GG


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I made a slight change to the cutlist: I noticed that when planned out there were only two hanger straps on this version. That's not an issue of course unless you use the hangers so here's an updated cutlist. Changes are:

Reduced hanger straps to 2-7/8" wide from 3" (this shows how little waste there is!)
Re-optimized layout
4% waste (down from 5%)
THREE hangers, enough for each box. 
Here's a pic and PDF of the updated cutlist:


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

James Lee said:


> might I suggest integrating cleats of some sort for the face/rear as well? I've made tons of these and the lids almost always warp - four cleats around the lid have prevented the top from weathering/bowing and exposing the frames interior.


You're not wrong - however, this is an exercise in "how do I get every scrap possible out of a sheet of plywood" and there's no wood left for lid sides. The solution is to use a screw through either side to keep the lid on (not a bad idea anyway if you are wrestling this out of a tree on a ladder) or use a strap around it. The same issue plagues many migratory covers, especially those on store-bought plywood nuc boxes. I personally used screws.

One thing folks have to consider when giving advice online is the poster's context. Are they an established beekeeper? Do they have scrap wood laying around? Do they have more advanced tooling? My assumption is no to all of these when I share something along these lines. Experienced beekeepers are not going to need my ideas for a swarm box. A new beekeeper wants to know they can actually build three swarm boxes from one sheet of plywood with no exceptions because they don't have spare/scrap wood laying around.

If they do - yep, a wrap-around lid is better. My other boxes have those and all things being equal I like them better.


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Lee Bussy said:


> You're not wrong - however, this is an exercise in "how do I get every scrap possible out of a sheet of plywood" and there's no wood left for lid sides. The solution is to use a screw through either side to keep the lid on (not a bad idea anyway if you are wrestling this out of a tree on a ladder) or use a strap around it. The same issue plagues many migratory covers, especially those on store-bought plywood nuc boxes. I personally used screws.
> 
> One thing folks have to consider when giving advice online is the poster's context. Are they an established beekeeper? Do they have scrap wood laying around? Do they have more advanced tooling? My assumption is no to all of these when I share something along these lines. Experienced beekeepers are not going to need my ideas for a swarm box. A new beekeeper wants to know they can actually build three swarm boxes from one sheet of plywood with no exceptions because they don't have spare/scrap wood laying around.
> 
> If they do - yep, a wrap-around lid is better. My other boxes have those and all things being equal I like them better.


I'll buy that for a dollar.


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## mmillion (Oct 4, 2014)

Lee Bussy said:


> I expect that a nice seasoned box would be preferable. Most of the folks on here with more than a couple of years' experience are not looking for me to share with them how to make a box. For those for whom seasoned boxes are not in abundance, this may be of some help. It costs considerably less than a deep box, lid, and bottom, and will last until they have enough experience to tell the new folks what a sub-standard idea it is.
> 
> I don't think the space is there to wait for them to fill it out, it's there because there's some information indicating bees may find it preferential. In any case, the bees should be moved to their final home before they build comb underneath. As @odfrank points out, if you start them in a deep you don't have to move them. If you don't have a deep laying around as a spare, this will work for you since bees don't seem to be too snooty (judging by the nest in my eaves last year.)


Wow, some people just don't get it. Stuck in their own ways.
Ok, so Lee doesn't have to explain it anymore. The right size for a swarm trap is _between 40 and 60 liters (10 to 15 gallons_ or 1.5–2 cubic feet). Numerous researchers demonstrated this is the size preferred by scout bees. A 5-frame nuc is too small unless you want to catch a small swarm and the chances that they will stay long enough for you to hive them is small. 
So if you really want a better chance at catching a swarm, give them what they are looking for. Or not!!


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

mmillion said:


> Wow, some people just don't get it. Stuck in their own ways.
> Ok, so Lee doesn't have to explain it anymore. The right size for a swarm trap is _between 40 and 60 liters (10 to 15 gallons_ or 1.5–2 cubic feet). Numerous researchers demonstrated this is the size preferred by scout bees. A 5-frame nuc is too small unless you want to catch a small swarm and the chances that they will stay long enough for you to hive them is small.
> So if you really want a better chance at catching a swarm, give them what they are looking for. Or not!!


I'm really not sure what yor point is. THe box being discussed is approximately 42l, which is a common swarm trap size.

There is, however, some discussion about the best size for a swarm trap, and it is commonly observed that swarms will move into spaces significantly larger or smaller that the supposedly optimum size.

When I was a boy, we had a swarm move into 3 stacks of old hive boxes, about 18 deeps total. It was a monster swarm and wouldn't have come close to fitting in a 40L swarm trap.

Could you cite your sources, other than Seeley for the "numerous researchers"?

BTW, Seeley had only three sizes for his test boxes. One was really small, one was (If I remember correctly) about 40l, and one was way big.

Even in that situation, unless memory fails me, the initial swarm went to the chimney of an abandoned house, the only structure on the island, in preference to his three different-sized swarm boxes. Not sure what the volume or shape of that "preferred cavity" was.

If I were trying to trap feral swarms, which are typically a bit small, I might select a smaller size for my swarm trap.


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