# Box building tools



## Orion7 (Jun 3, 2015)

My boxes are dovetail corners, but I use Titebond III and no nails and have never had one fail. I did buy a 18 gauge 1 1/2 inch staple gun when I switch to making my boxes out of ruff cut eastern red cedar, and used a rabbit joint. Dovetail corners I feel good with no nails, but not so much with the rabbit joints. Lowes had that staple gun on sell for $50. Plus I use the staple gun to put together frames. Does a real nice job. Titebound III is good stuff.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

I built all my boxes over the last winter so I can't say much about how long they will hold up. I used a rabbit/dado butt joint with TBIII glue. I use the brad/stapler combo from Harbor Freight. With the coupon it was under $20.00. I use 1 1/2 staples on the joints. I have always heard the glue does all the work. It is nice to use the staples to get a tight joint. The stapler works great for the price. If I had a construction business it would not be my choice but to build some boxes and frames it works good.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Watch the lay of the grain in the wood and you can minimize the tendency to open at the top and bottom. The heart side of the boards should be to the outside of the box. Easy to remember, "Dont put your heart in a box of pine"! Just as important whether finger jointing or rabbeted construction. 

I like the look of the finger joint but the time factor and the cost of buying and maintaining a free cutting dado set just seems high to me.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

crofter said:


> Watch the lay of the grain in the wood and you can minimize the tendency to open at the top and bottom. The heart side of the boards should be to the outside of the box. Easy to remember, "Dont put your heart in a box of pine"! Just as important whether finger jointing or rabbeted construction.


Exactly, because boards always cup away from the center of the tree.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

A framing nail or finish nail will split that pine in half.

18 guage brad or staples is the best option.

I have had excellent luck with this $29 stapler/brad nailer from amazon. Never misfires, consistent depth, works excellent.
http://www.amazon.com/NuMax-SST9032...1434676004&sr=8-17&keywords=pneumatic+stapler

Works much better than the $350 pasload nailer which I unfortunately also have. Sometimes you don't get what you pay for.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

"Nails only hold the box together until the glue dries." With Titebond III you could get by without nails once it sets. Like Orion7 said, it holds without nails on his boxes.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

crofter said:


> I like the look of the finger joint but the time factor and the cost of buying and maintaining a free cutting dado set just seems high to me.


 I use a router table with 3/4" square bit and a diy jig. I'll post a pic soon. I like using it over my dado set. Quicker setup, just as fast in action, and quick adjustment to do frame rest rabbit with the same bit.

Sounds like I have a plan. I'll keep using box joint and Titebond III as before, but instead of drilling and hand nailing, I'll just shoot it with my brad nailer (4 per joint) since the strength is in the glue. Thanks all for the advice.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

I also use a router. I have a dovetail jig but I set it up for finger joints instead of dovetails, then route the fingers in. Setup is a cinch and I can finger joint the end of a board in about half the time it takes on my table saw with a dado blade and jig.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

tanksbees said:


> A framing nail or finish nail will split that pine in half.


Not if you dull the nail first.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I make all of my equipment from builder's castoffs and stuff that I find left in rental houses. There is some regular 1 by's but mostly it is 3/4" plywood. I use butt-joints for corners, tite-bond III and 4 2 1/2" deckmate screws in each corner. The screw holes must be pre-drilled to avoid splitting.


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## maynard (Jul 7, 2014)

tanksbees said:


> A framing nail or finish nail will split that pine in half.


I've put together 100's of ponderosa pine boxes with finish nails without splitting.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

JConnolly said:


> I have a dovetail jig but I set it up for finger joints instead of dovetails, then route the fingers in.


How do you address the rounded bottoms to the end fingers? Filler? I thought about using this type of jig, but figured I'd only cut two at a time vertically for flat cuts all around, but for the price it didn't make sense for me. The jig I built can cut up to 4 boards at once, though only one notch at a time. I can knock out enough wood to build 10 boxes in about an hour usually. This is fine for the scale I'm at now, but I'm looking at other ideas for later when volume may count. I do like the strength of the box joint though. Even with no glue or anything it will easily hold the full weight of 10 capped frames... but without much rigidity to keep it square and resist pull from the wood bending any. I tried rabbit and butt joints, but didn't care for either. Even with ring nails and TB III they split at the top corners. Dovetail would be a nice touch if I had the jig for it, but no faster than I'm doing now. I saw someone cutting theirs with very long 'fingers' leaving one on end pieces, and two on side pieces. Basically, they used a router to remove the top and bottom of the end pieces, and 2/3 of the middle section on the side pieces. The continuous cut was much faster than making individual fingers, assembly was a bit quicker, but not much... they claim it's as strong as any other box joint. I plan to try one or two like this to see how they hold up. Has anyone else built them this way?

Not the photo I was seeking, but shows the general idea:


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## cgybees (Apr 20, 2015)

crofter said:


> Watch the lay of the grain in the wood and you can minimize the tendency to open at the top and bottom. The heart side of the boards should be to the outside of the box. Easy to remember, "Dont put your heart in a box of pine"! Just as important whether finger jointing or rabbeted construction.
> 
> I like the look of the finger joint but the time factor and the cost of buying and maintaining a free cutting dado set just seems high to me.


If you have a router and a 3/4" cutting head, you can build a sled for your router out of scrap lumber to do finger jointing... look on youtube for 'box joint router jig' - I found this worked really well.


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## cgybees (Apr 20, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Not if you dull the nail first.


Or predrill


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

cygbees, you are correct. That's what I do currently, a box joint jig/sled and predrilled nail holes... though wanting to improve the process as it's slow and tedious when I'm hurrying to get a bunch done.


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## sweatybetty (Apr 24, 2015)

dsegrest said:


> I make all of my equipment from builder's castoffs and stuff that I find left in rental houses. There is some regular 1 by's but mostly it is 3/4" plywood. I use butt-joints for corners, tite-bond III and 4 2 1/2" deckmate screws in each corner. The screw holes must be pre-drilled to avoid splitting.


+ 1 works just fine!


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

DrJeseuss said:


> How do you address the rounded bottoms to the end fingers?


The fingers are flat. There are no rounded corners. If you go back and look at the picture I posted, the hive side is the vertical piece. You can see that the fingers are square. The router rides on the top template so the end of the bit cuts the bottoms of the fingers. The top horizontal piece, the one with the round cuts in it, is a scrap that I clamped under the template to back up the grain on the fingers to it doesn't blow out the grain and splinter as the router bit machines through. Backing up the grain allows me to cut faster and produces a cleaner cut. Since the jig assures each cut is exactly the same as the other, I leave the backer scrap in place through the entire batch. 

I can't recommend that anyone buy a dovetail jig and the finger joint template just for making bee boxes. However, I already had the jig and template (woodworking is another hobby) so for those who have one, it is the cats meow for making finger joints. The joints are precise and every one is exactly the same and its mate is perfectly aligned. I set up my jig so the last finger is 5/8" to match the frame rabbet. I trim 3/8 off that finger on the side pieces. That closes in the end of the frame rabbet nice and tight and it also adds strength to that thin 3/8" thick rabbet wall.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Thanks for explaining, makes much more sense now. I've seen a dovetail jig at Harbor Freight for $34.99 which would be even better with one of their 40% off coupons. I might just make that leap. The sled jig is nice, but does take adjustment of the workpiece after each cut. The dovetail jig would cut out a lot of time with that regard. In the picture, since the horizontal pieces are just backstop, you're able to cut two pieces at a time, right?


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

A sled jig shouldn't require adjustment after each cut, but each cut does take a little more time because you have to push it through the blade, pull it back, release the clamp, lift the piece, slide it over and put it back down on the index pin, then re-clamp it. But a sled should be able to do more than one piece at a time.

I don't know anything about the Harbor Freight jig, you'll want to make sure it comes with the finger joint template, which is a different template than the dovetail template. Harbor Freight sells a lot of junk, but certain tools are a real bargain. All I can say is read the reviews. A Porter-Cable like the one I use runs about $170, so I think it is hard to justify that for only building bee boxes. You will also need a guide collar for your router and the correct bit. If you want to go fast you'll want a powerful router with a 1/2" shank bit. The 1/4" shank bits and routers will do the job, just not as fast. I use a spiral cutting bit as well, which cuts faster and cleaner, but it is more expensive. Again, it is something I already had. 

The way I set mine up I cut one piece at a time. I do it that way because I want to make sure the board is clamped solid, I don't want it slipping. I'm putting quite a bit of force on it to cut fast. I set up to cut the long sides on the left hand side, and the shorter ends on the right hand side - so the fingers are automatically offset. I insert a piece, do one end, flip it over, swapping inside face to outside, and cut the other end. Cutting all the fingers in one end takes about 20 seconds, so it goes fast. I cut a scrap piece to check my set up first. I cut a bunch of them all at once while I have it set up, then just stack the boards until I need to assemble a box. 

The setup in the picture is for 1/2" wide by 3/4" deep fingers. That means I have more fingers, but it works out just right so that the last finger is 5/8" the same as the frame rabbet.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

DrJeseuss said:


> For those building their own boxes, what do you suggest on this. Is it all about the glue, and the nails just hold till it dries? Since they're cross nailed, maybe the short length and small gauge of the brads isn't such a problem? While I don't intend to build 100 this year, I don't want to spend 5 times as long to build 20. I plan to continue growth over the years, and I also like doing other woodworking projects, so purchasing tools isn't a downer for me.


I use a mortise and tenon joint that I cut on the table saw. I cut the 3/8 x 3/8 tenon on the inside of the end board and the mortise into the side board with the 3/8" dado blade. I fasten it with three #8 x 1-3/4" deck screws from the side, I pre-drill the screw holes with a combo countersink bit to eliminate splitting the wood. I use Titebond III, and find that the screws pull the joint closed. I finish with a coat of primer and 2 coats of exterior latex.
There is a problem with putting nails into end grain wood. Wood shrinks very little in length, quite a bit across the grain, as it dries out. It will eventually shrink away from a nail in the end grain, and the nail will come lose, and pop out.
Here are some detail pics. I have enhanced the mortise and tenon detail because the paint covers it up nicely.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Not if you dull the nail first.


Another trick: if you look at the end of a nail, it is kind of a diamond shape with 2 cutting edges and 2 dull corners. Place the cutting edges across the grain so the nail cuts its way in, rather than wedging its way.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> Not if you dull the nail first.





gnor said:


> Another trick: if you look at the end of a nail, it is kind of a diamond shape with 2 cutting edges and 2 dull corners. Place the cutting edges across the grain so the nail cuts its way in, rather than wedging its way.


You guys might have missed it, but he was asking about shooting finish and framing nails with a nail gun. Maybe you guys have never used one of these nail guns but it just isn't going to work shooting those sized nails into 3/4" hardwood.

Brad nails or staples will even split 3/4" if too close to the edge


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

JConnolly said:


> A sled jig shouldn't require adjustment after each cut, but each cut does take a little more time because you have to push it through the blade, pull it back, release the clamp, lift the piece, slide it over and put it back down on the index pin, then re-clamp it. But a sled should be able to do more than one piece at a time.


This is the 'adjustment' I was referring to. I can cut 4 at a time on my sled by design, allowing me to do the full box (8 ends) in two cycles. I found that cutting two, or especially four at a time I had more variance in the final product from things shifting a hair here or there. I get near perfect results from one at a time, but this is much more time consuming. I'm checking on the HF jig a bit more, as I've already got a 2.5HP handheld router with bearing/template collars.

Regarding nailing, I've tried a few this past weekend with 16ga 1.5" brads down the fingers. As advertised, the glue makes the difference. Before the glue dried, this was held together well enough, but not great, and had some play in it. Once the glue dried, it was solid as a rock until I applied too much force, when the glue gave, taking chunks of the adjoining wood with it! Nice when the wood gives before the glue. lol Below is a shot of one I did with ring nails, just before switching to brads. The box joint is made from my router table sled. I'll get a pic of that next.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

tanksbees said:


> You guys might have missed it, but he was asking about shooting finish and framing nails with a nail gun. Maybe you guys have never used one of these nail guns but it just isn't going to work shooting those sized nails into 3/4" hardwood.
> 
> Brad nails or staples will even split 3/4" if too close to the edge


Most hive boxes are made from softwood like pine, to save weight. I will often use an 18 ga finish nailer to hold the pieces in place while I screw them. Never had a board split. I also use a narrow crown stapler and a brad nailer to assemble frames, with no problems.
A framing nailer is far too big for assembling boxes.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Yes, I too use pine as well, for both weight and cost. I have abundant red oak we cut yearly for firewood, but have began milling some to lumber. I'm curious to try a box or two of this. It's a beautiful look, but would likely yield a 100lb super when empty.  That might be good just as a display piece at markets, or for building an observation hive.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

I staple my finger joints with 1-1/2" narrow crown staples rather than use a nail. If you are going to buy a pneumatic nailer just for bee boxes then get a stapler that can shoot a variety of staple sizes. Otherwise a brad nailer is too small for box assembly and a finish nailer is too big for frame assembly.

There was a thread discussing using pocket screws to make bee boxes a while back. Pocket holes are easy and fast and make a square joint if your board is cut square. When making a butt joint with a screw the screw threads are cutting into end grain. With a pocket screw the threads are cutting into cross grain and you get a stronger joint. You do need to use a screw designed as a pocket screw because the flat head of the screw distributes the load into the endgrain to make a strong joint. I haven't ever used pocket holes for boxes, but it is how I build the frames for screened bottom boards.


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## SteveStevenson (Feb 14, 2014)

I went a different direction with the boxes I make. First of all, a good glue joint is stronger than the wood itself. I use a Kreg jig and glue with butt joints. They are NOT going to come apart. Goes pretty fast once you learn to use the jig.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Dr J -

Just a few quick points on hives with FBJ's...

I like the hives with slots down the insides of the short ends for hive partitions. The slots divide the hive down the middle for 2 x 5-frame arrangement, and spaced for 3 x 3-frame arrangement. I use these for mating virgin queens, making increase nucleus colonies, over-wintering nuc's over a strong colony separated by a double-screen board with matching slots (at 90 degrees - accross teh floor) to accept the partitions, which are usually made of 1/4 inch ply. I make triple and double slider tops in order to deal with one colony at a time.

Sugar pine cups the least, making it a great choice for deep boxes, Ponderosa is fine for mediums and smaller.

Staples tend to hold better than nails. I've used 2" staples with 9/16" crowns, and I find I have to keep the grain fairly clear and straight around the FBJ's. My complaint about staples is that they cause some surface damage to the wood that resists weather better if filled before sanding, an additional step. I'm trying 2 straight nails (2" x 18 guage) on the next batch, until that proves out, it's just untested info.

I leave the fingers bout 1/32" long so that they protrude for sanding, with the root of the gaps at the correct inside dimension of the box. Sanded end grain tends to weather much better than sawn end grain.

I assemble them on a jig - a solid block made of laminated plywood, that is 1/64th inch smaller than the inside dimensions of the box, and square enough to calibrate your tools with 

I belt sand the boxes, then dip the boxes in 50% mineral spirit / 50% boiled linseed oil, let them dry for 2 to 3 weeks, then prime with Kilz II and paint with outdoor grade laytex "oops!" paint on sale from the paint stores and hardware stores.

My mentor, a 42-year beekeeper, loves cleats, not smile handles. "Gotta get a grip on them things." I find myself agreeing with almost everything he says. He'd love the cleat added right at the top, supporting the thin area where the frames hang, but he does not have tops to match - yet.

My boxes have survived tumbles down a 50 foot slope (the bees did not enjoy that one very much...) and a 150 foot tumble on a freeway at 60 mph. I am currently repairing one that almost survived being run over by a truck. I am now a dedicated fan of Finger Box Joints and Titebond III.

I hope any of this helps. Best of luck to you.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

kilocharlie said:


> Dr J -
> 
> ...and paint with outdoor grade laytex "oops!" paint on sale from the paint stores and hardware stores.


I'll second that. I get mistints from Sherwin Williams. You can get a gallon of premium quality outdoor paint that would cost you $70 at retail for just $5 if you are willing to take what ever they have on hand. Given the life a top end paint will give me I am not about to be picky about color.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

JConnolly said:


> I staple my finger joints with 1-1/2" narrow crown staples rather than use a nail. If you are going to buy a pneumatic nailer just for bee boxes then get a stapler that can shoot a variety of staple sizes. Otherwise a brad nailer is too small for box assembly and a finish nailer is too big for frame assembly.
> 
> There was a thread discussing using pocket screws to make bee boxes a while back. Pocket holes are easy and fast and make a square joint if your board is cut square. When making a butt joint with a screw the screw threads are cutting into end grain. With a pocket screw the threads are cutting into cross grain and you get a stronger joint. You do need to use a screw designed as a pocket screw because the flat head of the screw distributes the load into the endgrain to make a strong joint. I haven't ever used pocket holes for boxes, but it is how I build the frames for screened bottom boards.


The pocket holes work for sure. I use a half-lap joint I cut with a home made tenon jig on the table saw, then gluey patooey.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Just a couple of quotes to pass along, from another of my mentors, a beekeeper / cabinetmaker, regarding spreading enough glue on each side of the joint: "If it don't OOZE, you messed up! Tear it apart, wash it, let it dry, glue it again." 

Also, "The nail or staple is just there to hold it while the glue is doing it's thing, which is drying." To which I asked, "Isn't the combination of a mechanical fastener, a tight mechanical joint, glue, and clamping pressure all important?" He answered, "Go make 3 identical lap joints, one with fasteners only, one with glue and fasteners, one with glue and clamp the hello out of it. Then see how much weight it takes to bust them apart." I tried this, and to my surprise, a strongly-clamped glue joint is stronger than glue and staples without the clamps. The staple-only joint was less than 1/2 as strong as the others. The clamped glue joint was stronger than the wood itself, rupturing in another place than the actual joint. 

I do wish I had run a fourth test - a glue, fastener, AND clamping pressure joint...and made up a large batch of them for testing over several years exposure to weather out in the apiary!


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

kilocharlie said:


> Just a couple of quotes to pass along, from another of my mentors, a beekeeper / cabinetmaker, regarding spreading enough glue on each side of the joint: "If it don't OOZE, you messed up! Tear it apart, wash it, let it dry, glue it again."
> 
> Also, "The nail or staple is just there to hold it while the glue is doing it's thing, which is drying." To which I asked, "Isn't the combination of a mechanical fastener, a tight mechanical joint, glue, and clamping pressure all important?" He answered, "Go make 3 identical lap joints, one with fasteners only, one with glue and fasteners, one with glue and clamp the hello out of it. Then see how much weight it takes to bust them apart." I tried this, and to my surprise, a strongly-clamped glue joint is stronger than glue and staples without the clamps. The staple-only joint was less than 1/2 as strong as the others. The clamped glue joint was stronger than the wood itself, rupturing in another place than the actual joint.
> 
> I do wish I had run a fourth test - a glue, fastener, AND clamping pressure joint...and made up a large batch of them for testing over several years exposure to weather out in the apiary!


You are correct. The thinner the glue layer, the stronger the bond. That's why I use a mortise and tenon joint. The joint is self-aligning, and the deck screws pull it together almost as well as clamps do. When I'm making a bunch of boxes, I can't afford to clamp each one until it dries, but the screws do a good enough job.
After all, we aren't building pianos here.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

It would take a whole lot of screws to equal one good clamp's force. The Jorgansen I-beam clamps with the acme thread screws can dent almost any wood. I have not tried it against lignum vitae, nor some of the other expensive woods. Think "WAY bigger screw!", and think "Big Screw Thread against metal vs small screw thread against wood". Tennoning also leaves a notch, which is almost never good.

Another joint that I will be testing eventually is a lockmiter joint. Made with a router table, one piece passes by the cutter flat, the other piece vertical. If you can hold +.010" / -0.000" tolerance over the lengths, it should be a very strong, easy-to-assemble joint as well. 

It should save a lot of time, and could prove very durable, as no end grain needs to be exposed. It will probably require a planer to control thickness before routing the lockmiter. You could add any fasteners you prefer, I'll probably go with the longest 23 gage brads I can shoot.

I do love Kreg pocket jigs for the face frames of my solar wax melters, double screen board frames, and telescoping tops!

Also, we saw some old beehives from the late 1960's made up with a drill and dowel joint. They did not last as well as the FBJ boxes, but all of them were pretty crunchy.

I hope this helps. Good luck!


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

kilocharlie said:


> Another joint that I will be testing eventually is a lockmiter joint. Made with a router table, one piece passes by the cutter flat, the other piece vertical. If you can hold +.010" / -0.000" tolerance over the lengths, it should be a very strong, easy-to-assemble joint as well.


There have been several threads where a miter lock joint has been discussed. You might look them up to see what the results have been. I like that there isn't any exposed endgrain in that joint, but cutting the frame rest rabbet becomes problematic. If the rabbet is cut using a tablesaw before assembly then the rabbet will extend into the miter joints. If the rabbet is cut with a router after the box is glued then the bit leaves a radius that has to be chiseled out it you want a square rabbet corner. Neither one of these would keep me from using the joint (in fact I'm seriously considering it for a Warre), it is just something to keep in mind so you can deal with it properly. Miter lock bits are notoriously fussy to get set up, but once dialed in they make a beautiful strong joint.


Also, this thread on a new kind of box making blade might interest you.


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## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

unless you are a commercial beekeeper that moves the hives across the nation, a cardboard box would do to keep bees, or a 5 gal pail  
but since we like to build stuff, I guess we will keep building stuff  and also , it is easy to resell hives in a standard box, rather than a 5 gal pail  

I am looking at building mine up, and I hope , with the wife's blessings and help, to start working on them soon, since I am getting ready for a fall flow here and I need boxes and frames. 
I have a couple of questions, where do you guys buy your wood, and I mean I am looking for cheap, and what would you recommend as a joint style for a non carpenter, and not so talented builder like me  I need something easy to make with the more basic tools( table saw, router).
thank you 
radu


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

I build boxes to keep insects in, not items of furniture - so - I screw and glue simple butt joints. Why screws and not clamps ? Because with clamps you have to wait until the glue is set before work on the box can continue.

With screws, I often finish building a box, and can still see white glue lines which are a tell-tale that the glue has not yet fully set - for when it does, it turns transparent.

I also paint my bee-boxes inside and out - but that's another story ...

LJ


Radu - you want cheap wood ? - look around for pallets.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

I buy my wood at the local lumber store. Its a little less than buying from Home Depot, and usually a little higher quality. I can make a bee box for about six bucks.

For a beginner at woodworking I would probably suggest a basic rabbet joint, or if you have a little more patience to make the setup, a locking rabbet joint. Both can be made on a tablesaw with an ordinary blade. Modern glues are stronger than the wood is, however gluing end grain doesn't hold as well as gluing face grain. A rabbet joint increases the face grain glue areas. A locking rabbet joint will be as strong as a finger joint and it exposes less end grain to the weather than a finger joint does, though that doesn't matter too much if you use a good paint.

Another easy and really strong joint is a spline joint. It is covered in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV-7kmLwQ00


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

crocodilu911 said:


> unless you are a commercial beekeeper that moves the hives across the nation, a cardboard box would do to keep bees, or a 5 gal pail
> but since we like to build stuff, I guess we will keep building stuff  and also , it is easy to resell hives in a standard box, rather than a 5 gal pail
> 
> I am looking at building mine up, and I hope , with the wife's blessings and help, to start working on them soon, since I am getting ready for a fall flow here and I need boxes and frames.
> ...


There is a good series on YouTube on building woodenware here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV-7kmLwQ00
As far as wood goes, you get what you pay for, and since a properly painted box will last for a lot of years, it doesn't pay to go second class on the lumber. Most builders use pine, because it's light, resistant to rot, and easy to machine.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

kilocharlie said:


> *It would take a whole lot of screws to equal one good clamp's force. The Jorgansen I-beam clamps with the acme thread screws can dent almost any wood. I have not tried it against lignum vitae, nor some of the other expensive woods. Think "WAY bigger screw!", and think "Big Screw Thread against metal vs small screw thread against wood". Tennoning also leaves a notch, which is almost never good.*
> 
> Another joint that I will be testing eventually is a lockmiter joint. Made with a router table, one piece passes by the cutter flat, the other piece vertical. If you can hold +.010" / -0.000" tolerance over the lengths, it should be a very strong, easy-to-assemble joint as well.
> 
> ...


As I said before, I'm not building pianos. I can afford neither the number of clamps or the time to clamp each box and wait for the glue to dry. Three 1-3/4" deck screws pull the joint tight enough to squeeze the glue out and straighten any cuppage in the board. I also set my table saw with a digital angle gauge to 90 degrees +- .001, and drill pilot holes on a drill press, so when I pull the joint together, it is pretty well square.
I cut 3/8" X 3/8" X 1" filler blocks which I glue at the ends of the dado, then trim before painting with a flush cut saw.
What I'm doing now is designing a system where I can build 50 or 100 boxes in the least amount of time, and so far, I haven't seen anything here that's better than what I do.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

Has anyone figured out how to fill the reveal at the end of the rabbet? You can buy a jig to set up the cuts for this, but if you do it manually, it can take a lot of time, and waste a lot of wood. The jig itself is worth about 50 bucks. The other thing is the joint will be cut in end grain, which will be rougher than the image posted here, and tearouts will be a pain.
The mortise and tenon joint I use has just as much glue area and more leverage than this system.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

I haven't ever used that joint on a bee box - was just pointing out that there have been some threads discussing it and that the frame rabbet would require extra work. The only way practical way I can think of to avoid a reveal where the rabbet intersects the miter would be to cut the rabbet with a router after the box is assembled, then square out the corner with a sharp chisel. If you were to use a miter lock joint then backing up the cut to prevent end grain blowout would be a must. The joint is strong even in end grain, though it should probably be screwed. The huge advantage is the lack of any exposed end grain. But as you said, we aren't building pianos.

Since I use finger joints cut on a dovetailing machine I set it up so that a finger fills the reveal at the end of the rabbet (see attached). This also helps reinforce the rabbet at the ends because the wood is only 3/8" thick there and is prone to break off if the beek isn't careful when prying well propolized boxes apart. With the dove-tail jig and a finger joint template I have it down to where setup takes about three to five minutes, and then I can cut as many fronts and sides at the same time as I wish without ever doing another setup or adjusting a fence or blade height, so it is the method I'm going to keep using for now - fast set up and fast cuts. And if I don't use the jig for something else (as was the case for the last two times), then I can even skip the setup since I leave all the stops in place when I put it away. Setup is the same and doesn't have to be changed for deep, medium, 10 frame, 8 frame, and nuc boxes. But as I said, I couldn't justify the cost of one of these jigs for only making bee boxes - but if someone has one already then I strongly recommend them.

Your joint is similar to the locking rabbet joint I was talking about in the previous post. A locking rabbet has two tabs, one overlays the end grain of the other and you end up with only about 1/8" of exposed end grain This PDF explains the setup, just follow the flush joint. It can be made with a standard blade by making double passes for those who don't have dado blades. I've been wanting to build a Warre hive just as an experiment and I've considered this joint for it because the sides will be 30mm, too thick for my finger joint jig.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

> The huge advantage is the lack of any exposed end grain.


I think one disadvantage of any mitre joint is shrinkage over time. As the wood shrinks, the inside of the joint will open up. As a tradesman, I have spent many hours coping moldings where a simple miter cut would have done the job – _for a while._ It's also the reason we use bulls eyes on door and window trim. I'm not saying it will happen on a 3/4" mitre joint, but the potential is there. 
I suppose any joint we want to make will survive every day handling in a bee yard, but not one would survive being poked with a fork lift, or a hungry bear. Our choices will depend on what tools we have available, how much time we want to spend, and where we want to go with beekeeping.


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

In case it's of any interest - here's how I make my modified British National boxes:

First job is to cut pallet wood planks to pre-set lengths using a cross-cut jig, run them across a router table to clean-up the edges, then glue them together.

After cutting a rebate in a batten and gluing/screwing it to the end plate, I then run a line of glue along the outside exterior of the joint, thusly:










I then glue and screw the side plates on (I use 4 screws at each corner, 'cause I'm screwing into end grain, and finally add the bottom battens which have a 20 degree down bubble cut on a table saw. These battens also have an external line of glue added to 'em (as do the exteriors of all joints), and finally glue is painted onto the exposed end grain of the butt joints. Major defects in the wood (it IS pallet wood, after all) are filled with automotive body filler and sanded down:










And this is how they end up:










Not pretty, I grant you - but the cost is very close to zero. 28 cheap wood screws per box, a small amount of glue, and paint. Runners are made from aluminium sheet off-cuts, and the wood is free, as is my time, as I'm now retired.

Plenty good enough to keep insects in, I think ? ... and they don't get stolen 

LJ


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

These look mvery nice for what they once were. Nice job! I will note though to be sure you are only using pallets marked HT, for Heat Treated. Any other markings indicate the use of insecticide in/on the wood. MB (Methyl Bromide) is a commonly seen alternative to HT, especially with pallets from other countries. While many will tell you it was largely phased out in the early 2000's I can tell you we have many hundreds in our warehouse currently (a fair percentage, sometimes half), and cycle through them weekly, so there are obviosly MANY still out there.

http://www.1001pallets.com/pallet-safety/


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