# Mite Treatments: Are We Rotating Treatments, or Just Trying to Find One?



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Somewhat associated with your question.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...h-to-resistance&highlight=oav+path+resistance


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## Forgiven (Nov 17, 2016)

Rotation... hmn. Well. Maybe.
So far Formic for brood, oxalic after brood. I don't think that counts as rotation though. 
I am however considering using thymol next year instead of formic as rotation, but I'm still bit undecided about that. As in moving into rotation of thymol and formic on yearly basis, oxalic will remain for winter treatment.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

All this leads me to believe that a lot of us aren't so much 'rotating' treatments said:


> No rotation. Using OAV only because it is cheap, easy and most of all works.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Only time spent on this frames rotation method: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?332871-Constant-mite-removal-management


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Most treatments have temperature limitations and, in my region at least, I cannot use them during the most critical time periods when the mites counts are high and brood rearing slows down a bit. I've found that if my colonies are not treated in late Summer/"early" Fall when the temperatures are still relatively high, they go into Winter much less robust. 

I've been using OAV for several years now and don't plan on introducing any other treatment rotation. It's been working very well for me, so why mess with it. Three to four treatments a week apart in Aug-Sept, then one more treatment in early winter when broodless. 

I understand this is effective for me, here in my region, but will not work in other areas. I think the further south you might go in the country the less practical OAV might be as a single mode of treatment due to the extended brooding period in warmer climates. When I retire in a few years and relocate down south I'll have to start all over again figuring this out. Until then ....


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I can only speak for others to formic and oxalic acids usage. They do not rotate because the acids are believed not to make the mites resistant.
The formic acid is very dangerous if handled without care, some have 50% queen losses ( I will never understand why the queen is not separated while treatments are used).

If I would treat I would use Oxalic acid like M. Gillmore does.

Treating with thymol might make the hive abscond and or may disturb the hive´s own pheromone based communication.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

SiWolKe said:


> I can only speak for others to formic and oxalic acids usage. They do not rotate because the acids are believed not to make the mites resistant.
> The formic acid is very dangerous if handled without care, some have 50% queen losses ( I will never understand why the queen is not separated while treatments are used).


I use formic (MAQS) steadily, and generally can find a good window for application. I have no issues with queen loss. I used Apistan (once) when my treatment ran late, it worked and I keep it on stand-by for those one-off situations.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

SiWolKe said:


> ... They do not rotate because the acids are believed not to make the mites resistant...


It's interesting. And beemandan's link is largely people arguing about the idea of mite resistance to oxalic developing or its possibility of developing. And as Mike Gillmore says in his post, "...It's been working very well for me, so why mess with it?"

But I guess then, I'm wondering why Randy Oliver says in his presentation on Oxalic Acid on the third-to-last slide:

*"A Critical Closing Thought: “The only way to halt the development of resistance to a certain product is by interrupting its use in the control strategy.” *

Why does he say this? Is he just trying to 'play it safe'? Why is it critical to interrupt the use of a given control strategy if the strategy has no risk of becoming ineffective over time?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> Randy Oliver says ...*
> "A Critical Closing Thought: “The only way to halt the development of resistance to a certain product is by interrupting its use in the control strategy.” *
> 
> Why does he say this? Is he just trying to 'play it safe'? Why is it critical to interrupt the use of a given control strategy if the strategy has no risk of becoming ineffective over time?


Looking at what history has taught us about insects developing resistance to pesticides over time, not just V-mites but all targeted insects in pest control, it would seem logical to anticipate mites also developing resistance to any single form of treatment used repeatedly. Perhaps Randy sincerely "expects" this to happen with acids as well. Viewing it from that perspective I can understand why one would recommend rotating different mite treatments. 

Playing it safe? Maybe. By rotating treatments it's probable that resistance will be checked, whether it would have ever happened with acids or not.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Some recent research suggests organic acids work by eroding the foot pads from the beetles legs. Without them, they can't attach to a bee. While I generally agree that resistance is possible, I think resistance to acid on your feet is likely to be a very long time developing.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> ...I think resistance to acid on your feet is likely to be a very long time developing.


As I understand it, acids have a more physical mode of action as opposed to things like Coumaphos and Fluvalinate. In my mind, the idea of developing 'resistance' to acids would be akin to thinking humans could develop skin that is resistant to bullets.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> the idea of developing 'resistance' to acids would be akin to thinking humans could develop skin that is resistant to bullets.


Yeah....then there's the roach resistant to a hammer analogy. I, too, thought that resistance to oa probably wouldn't become an issue. Then I started reading these ridiculous attempts at an analogy...and realized that, with this entrenched mindset and consequent misuse.....it was inevitable.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

you're a real hoot when you want to be dan.

i'll stay out of it this time except to say if it's enough of a concern to randy then that's good enough for me.

nice to see you posting adam. am i mistaken or has your location changed?


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

When I was a Floridian, there were certainly times when we used a bigger hammer on roaches.

I have only treated with maqs. It was effective and no queen losses resulted in 10 hives.

I am reading about and gathering details on OA. I think there will be a place for using OA as a break from MAQS, but maqs is so easy and successful in my area, it will be the go to for me.

There are advantages over OA when brood are present.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

squarepeg said:


> ...it's enough of a concern to randy then that's good enough for me.
> 
> nice to see you posting adam. am i mistaken or has your location changed?


I feel the same way about Randy's comment, but I like to test the waters with the people here now and then on things. Yeah, I'm in Vermont now. This is actually where I'm originally from. Closer now to my old Dad and working more bees than ever.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

SiWolKe said:


> some have 50% queen losses ( I will never understand why the queen is not separated while treatments are used).


What would happen if you took your queens out of all your hives for a week. Consider that at the same time queen is removed the hive is treated and weakened on day 1. What's it going to look like on day six thru ten when the beekeeper comes back to check? Maybe you should experiment and try it yourself.
Second question: How do you keep an isolated queen alive for six to ten days?

Hey, maybe it's a good idea. Just dawned on me that queens shut down during MAQ treatments for a minimum of five days.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I feel the same way about Randy's comment, but I like to test the waters with the people here now and then on things. Yeah, I'm in Vermont now. This is actually where I'm originally from. Closer now to my old Dad and working more bees than ever.


Would you like to get together some time? We're only about 100 miles apart. I think it's about 75 miles from here to Rouses Point, NY.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> you're a real hoot when you want to be dan.


Then again sp....I'm at my funniest when I don't intend to be. 

I have high regard for Randy Oliver and Jennifer Berry (hammer/roach quote). All that aside, I've discovered that the moment people think they know all there is to know about a subject, the surer they are to be surprised.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

MAQS is a difficult treatment for those of us in the Deep South with its temperature limitations. I, too, am struggling to find a good fit for rotation in with my OAV treatments -- largely due to Oliver's warning.

While I understand the thinking behind the difficulty of building resistance to an acid, I suppose the acid, when used over time, could select mites that require/elect shorter and shorter phoretic periods. I could see this greatly reducing the efficacy of OAV treatments. But I am just speculating.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I must admit that I'm not rotating treatments as I should. I treat using Apiguard (thymol) after I've pulled honey supers...usually late August into September. And I do a midwinter round or two of oav.
August/September is too hot here for MAQS. I've avoided Apivar mainly because it looks sure to follow the path of Apistan and Checkmite. I tried Hopguard.....and it failed miserably.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

There are successful commercial beekeepers who treat once a year with the same material each time. I thought some of them might pipe up in this Thread.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> I thought some of them might pipe up in this Thread.


Speaking of commercials piping up.....did you put your two cents in?


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

beemandan said:


> I must admit that I'm not rotating treatments as I should. I treat using Apiguard (thymol) after I've pulled honey supers...usually late August into September. And I do a midwinter round or two of oav.
> August/September is too hot here for MAQS. I've avoided Apivar mainly because it looks sure to follow the path of Apistan and Checkmite. I tried Hopguard.....and it failed miserably.


beemandan: I would say that Apiguard in late summer and OAV in mid-winter is a treatment rotation. Basically using each product once a year. We are both from the South. I have been looking for an early summer treatment option besides a regimen of OAV. Thymol won't work because it will slow down brood. Boxes will get too hot for MAQS. Otherwise, I am treating at the same times as you -- August and late November/early December. But I am doing it all with OAV. Do you see any need for an early summer treatment? Or how one can even be possible when they are putting nectar on by the end of March?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Speaking of commercials piping up.....did you put your two cents in?


 lol Yeah, sorry. My two cents would be that my experience is none that anyone should follow. I have rotated treatment materials, but have not found a material or routine or sampling routine that works well for me, let alone one I'd recommend to someone else.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

psm1212 said:


> Do you see any need for an early summer treatment?


I know a few folks who do an early spring round of MAQS. I haven't found it necessary....yet. I have begun to bring in some vsh queens with the hope that they will help. The way I do it today...by the time I begin my end of season Apiguard treatments my miteloads are higher than I'd like.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Would you like to get together some time? We're only about 100 miles apart. I think it's about 75 miles from here to Rouses Point, NY.


I'll keep that in mind. I've been looking for gear, and kind of running all over when things come up. If I'm heading your way I'll try to see if we can arrange something.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I'll keep that in mind. I've been looking for gear, and kind of running all over when things come up. If I'm heading your way I'll try to see if we can arrange something.


 I know an Amish guy near Renseallear Falls who builds nice bee equipment.


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

beemandan said:


> I know a few folks who do an early spring round of MAQS. I haven't found it necessary....yet. I have begun to bring in some vsh queens with the hope that they will help. The way I do it today...by the time I begin my end of season Apiguard treatments my miteloads are higher than I'd like.


I plan to do a half (one strip) treatment in early spring when it is warm enough. This year waiting for cool enough late summer temps almost lost me a few hives. I knew I had mites and it was still too hot to treat.

I figure that the spring treatment will knock things back enough that it will be okay to wait until late summer or fall, when I will do a two strip treatment.

It did not occur to treat the new packages while spring temps were still cool. I think my packages came with alot of free mites as a bonus. By summer's end I had pretty bad PMS in three hives.

Fortunately I have most of.my equipment in place and the expense of the maqs will not be a problem.


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