# Winter Kill and Losses



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I've lost 3 out of 15 so far this year. One failed queen in the fall left only old bees going into winter. Two more were so weak that I combined them with other colonies a week ago. 

One of the weak colonies had maybe 50 bees alive in a hive full of honey. This is consistent with mite impacts from a heavy infestation in the fall.

I have 12 colonies in pretty good condition that should start brood rearing within a week if they have not already done so. First pollen in this area is usually about February 12th give or take a week.

Fusion


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## beecron (Nov 7, 2004)

I lost 1 of my 2...so far. I did not do any type of treatment last year, trying to go cold turkey and end up with bees that may be able to survive with no chemical interventions. I am hopeful for the surviving hive so that I may use it this spring to make splits and hopefully use their genetics that were able to survive this winter.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

3 yrs ago I decided to winter some our hives in the north and breed from survivor stock. After listening to MB and Rob Harrison this year I took the plunge and did not treat any hives in one of my yards with 24. I checked them the other day. It started out extremely disappointing as hive after hive had died out. (apparrent varroa depopulation) 19 of the 24 were dead. I had 5 left. It was a tough pill to swallow but was what I was basically told to expect. As I looked over the ones still alive, they weren't just alive, they were booming. 7 Frames (in Singles) of exceptionally strong bees. Apparrently superior stock. I haven't quite figured out how I will make the best use of them yet but I'm going to track them closely.

My operational saving grace is only my ability to split southern wintered hives. For me that will end in the next year or so due AHB I suspect. I hope we all find some answers in the north!


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Joel . . .

>19 of the 24 were dead. I had 5 left . . .

Are these five hives more than 2 yrs old?
What "age" were the ones that died? 

thanx,


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Dave W, In an apiary with 19 dead and obvious mite load and pressure, do you think it matters?

Added...Unless all five are the survivors are new and all the dead are old. Then I could see the relevance. So I guess its a question to ask.

[ January 07, 2006, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

1 down so far, out of 21. Mites got them. I treated all the hives in early november with OA drip and back in late August with 3 OA vapor treatments. 6 of my hives are from first-year nucs. They're fine.

I'm doing good. I expected to lose more by now. I just checked them, it's 28 degrees F in the shade, a bit warmer in the sun, and many bees are out taking cleansing flights. Nice.

[ January 07, 2006, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: George Fergusson ]


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BjornBee, Last May is where I start from in relation to colony count. The Ag Surveyer just called me yesterday. Her final question was, "Do you want a copy of this report?" I said "No thank you. Since I know that my responses to your questions are nothing more than educated guesses and have no relation to accurecy, let alone reality your survey , to me anyway, is meaningless. And if anyone uses it to justify anything they will be using faulty, erronious and incorrect data." Or something sorta like that. I usually don't think as fast as I speak.

But back to your question. In May I had 732 colonies and nucs. Right now, if I told you that I have 250 live colonies I'd probably be lying. And I don't want to do that here anymore than I enjoyed doing it with the surveyer, but she forced me and she understood my situation. So, let's say 250 live out of 732. That would be 34% live and 66% dead. I'm not proud. Just the facts, m'am. Right, Joe? Friday that is.

Mark


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

sqkcrk, Thanks. Can you suggest the reason for the kill rate that you anticipate?

I always look at dead-outs of other beekeepers with hesitation. Many dead-outs are nothing more than hives that were not combined or culled for whatever reason. Many just try to save everything, and this accounts for alot of dead hives. So I agree in principle with you about stats and guesses. But if everything is equal from year to year, I can factor that. Although I am not sure why a May count is given?

I also know that some winters, regional weather impacts hive kill rates at a greater rate. Some years mites and the viruses that they spread just seem worse than others. Kind of like the human flu season, some bad, and some really bad. 

The question simply is asked for observations. Its not factual for research, and guesses are welcome. I am trying to see what kind of spring we will have on demand in the bee industry, but also hopefully letting others know they need to check on the hives soon and don't drop the ball.

I have once again not treated for mites. I know what to expect in a good year and whats a bad year. I will not get to some yards for a good time yet. So I am interested in the over-all picture of whats happening from a braod perspective.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I agree DaveW, it is an important factor in the whole of things. 
You cant toute one years surviving hives as "superiour" stock, quite yet. 
Many other factors may have lead up to their survival, age of the hive for example. A mid summer split, will not have the mite loads as the rest of the hives in the yard, although it would be funny they didnt cross contaminate. Perhaps those hive will die off next year to mite loads.

Time will tell you Joel. Hope your focus is worth the time effort and money. I think its much easier to buy queens from beekeeping groups who have done this on a much larger scale, many years ago, that has lead them to a few servivour lines. Doing this myself seems to a costly waste. Introduce those lines into your stock, and keep away from any undo losses.


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## MikeGillmore (Nov 15, 2005)

First year. 
I have 4 hives - 1 package and 3 spring swarms. 
They went into winter with ample stores but in late fall I found a couple of hives with deformed wing bees and all 4 had massive mite counts. I was certain that if I did not take action they would certainly all be lost. So I treated them all with Mite-Away II. I will not use it again - it sure knocked down the mites, but killed a lot of the bees too. 
Just checked them again last week and all are doing pretty well. I still have mites dropping so I'll be starting OA vapor treatments next week when it warms a bit. So far so good.
I'll be requeening them all next year and going to S/C so we'll see if that helps me to avoid having to use treatments, or at least eliminate the harsh stuff. I just didn't have the stomach to let them all die.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I didnt like the formic treatment also. I was just to nervious of sevearly killing the hive, for it is very temperature dependant.
Also I dont believe I had the overall control on both v and t mites as I was lead to believe it conrtoled.

I'm reall looking into oxalic acid as my next alternative. I am really interested in the newly developing applicatiors.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

It would be interesting to know the answer to Dave W's question.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>80 to 90% of your loses will most likely be seen by this time.

I agree BjornBee. Most colony losses are the sick or weakened hives going into winter. The cold weather dosent kill a properly prepaired healthy colony.

>>16/10 37% dead
26/10 62% dead
12/5 59% dead
24/12 50% dead 


Wow. Thats not good news. I havnt heard of anyone checking hives up here yet, probably will check some Febuary or so.

I cleaned my mite problem up with Check-mite last fall, to larger than wanted numbers, and due to Apistan resistance. My plan is to start in with an Oxalic Acid program starting in the spring. 
With high mite counts, I needed to lower them quickly, to simply buy time, until I could get properly set up for OA treatments. Thankful for Checkmite, it was either use it, or let my hives tolerate the mites themselves this winter!

Sounds like it will still be a good year before I get my hands on a modified vapourizing device, so trikling might be my method of choice for the spring.
Lots to think about yet, and lots of management modifications to do to make things work out.


Do you believe this to be a v or t mite problem, or the results off an unusual year?


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

out of our 145 hives we have 65 indoor wintered and 75 out side we have not used any chemicals this year we are on small cell. so far we have had 5 of the hives out side die and looks like 3 more will for sure. the indoors wintered hive we have about 6 hives that are dead. the reason almost all the hives that died did is because like bjorne said they were very small to start with and pretty much just died. (beekeeper eror) 

no mite damage there are a few mites that have fallen through the SBB on the hives inside looks like about 25 mites have fallen in the last month and a half. 
the three hives out side that i am sure will died is becase of nosema they have it kinda bad lol. 
when we put the singles inside we were hoping for a 50% tha would stay alive because they were just weak little things that would not build up all year. but now we are hopeing that we have 85-90% that are alive they seem to be growing a little and look healthy. 
regards Nick


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

20 hives, 2 nucs.
One hive dead, 1 nuc dead. one hive suspected not to make it.

Dickm


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

All 12 doing well so far. Everybody is taking light syrup today (80 degrees). I did OA vapor in the fall on all except the two feral hives. All Italian or Italian/NWC crosses.

[ January 09, 2006, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Ross ]


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BjornBee, I didn't anticipate a kill rate. I reported the kill rate, so far, starting May, 2005.

I believe that a great part of the kill rate was due to no mite treatment in the spring and then in the fall I was distracted by a death in the family (Mom) that caused me to focus other places. Two yards got treated with OA liquid in Oct., by friends. And then again in SC in Nov. Two yards received no treatment. And the rest got Check mite strips. Two guys, that I hired, took the honey off and installed strip while working the yards close to home. This they did while I was away. When I got home we gathered the hives into the Home Yard to ready them for transport to SC. When we did that we found that half or more were dead or nearly dead. The use of the strips was a waste of time and money because the damage was already done. Six or seven weeks from now I'll see what there is left alive and go ahead from there. I'm hoping to buy queens, make splits that raise their own queens, and buy packages if possible. But I'm pretty sure that they are all spoken for. I was told today of a guy near where I go in SC that last year offered frames of brood for $8.00 each. That sounds reasonable to me. I hope that everyone else has better luck than I have had.

Mark


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

DaveW, I made a trip to the "experimental yard" and here's what I found.

I was wrong about the numbers. There turned out to 21 hives in the yard.

6 left alive - 5 appear strong. 1 lost part of the cluster due to that cold spell in Dec. and apparrently could not move to reach stores.

Out of the 6, 2 are this years nucs, the other 4 are at least 2 yrs old. 4 are Buckfast and 2 are own stock.

Out of the 15 deadouts 1 was starvation. My mistake, huge cluster. Missed it. The rest had clear signs of varroa depoulation. One did show chalbrood but that usually is only a contributing factor.

Ian, I here what you say about un-necessary losses and buying well bred queens. That has been my position for the past decade. Queens (packages and nucs) are already getting scarce due to industry pressures. Where will I get these queens 2 yrs from now when Florida and Georgia are Africanized? Right now my sense is that I will be Breeding my own queens, requeening in the fall and wintering singles. that doesn't give me much time to get my stock in order.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I went through all of them in my back yard today. Two dead nucs (well, one was "mostly dead"). Both drowned in syrup  But other than that all the hives are still alive.


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## LaRae (Apr 29, 2005)

We started with 2 hives in 2004 (if feels weird to say last year still) and so far they are both thriving.

I did not do any treatment in fall except to put in grease patties the day before Thanksgiving (over 60 degrees that day)and both hives were strong, everything looked good...we've had a couple of cold spells, one went 2 weeks without going above freezing.

The past week or so it's been 20's and 30's at night 40 to 60 in day...the stores are being used so this week I went ahead and put sugar syrup into the top feeders. 

Checked again today, bees flying, a few dead on the landing board (2 or 3) but no signs yet of die off or anything major.

So maybe I'll get lucky and both hives will survive.


LaRae


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Went through my home yard two days ago. Of 22 hives outside, 18 were still going. Of the dead outs, 1 was a nuc, the other three were shakey going into winter. Of the twelve nucs I moved inside, 8 still going, 4 dead outs. Of the four dead outs, 1 was really small, 2 had mositure problems, and I haven't looked inside the fourth yet. Not too bad considering what I started with. I also had a problem with robbing last fall, and that could've had alot to do with it. I treated 3 times with sucrocide in Oct.


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

14 of 15 stillok


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## PA Pete (Feb 2, 2005)

2/2 0% dead here Bjorn, but still crossing my fingers. Italian cluster is big - NWC cluster is small and not as reassuring but I hear that's to be expected. Time will tell.

Oh yeah - treated with formic pads in October.

Michael - what kind and size feeder were you using and how did they leak?

-Pete

[ January 07, 2006, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: PA Pete ]


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## DChap (Oct 19, 2005)

started with 17, two have died but were weak splits going into the fall months. Fed syrup through the month of Oct. Of the 15 remaining 9 were 2005 packages the other six 2004 packages.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

I fed heavily this fall too. If I hadn't combined 4-5 of them back in October, I'd have lost them too. I now understand what it means to "take your losses in the fall".


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

You guys are scaring me with all those looses. Specially when I looked at my one and only hive and it looks lots weaker than it did. Seems too wet inside to me. But being new I don't know what to do.

I will keep bees even if I do loose this hive, but it will be a blow.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Seems too wet inside to me. But being new I don't know what to do.

If it seems too wet inside, it probably is. What did you do to provide for ventilation? It's not too late to do something. Have you got an upper entrance?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I should add as a point of interest, We have 60 of 60 in our SC yard (so far) and 25 of 30 additional in NY (treated) that are doing well. Concerned about food stores in the north and south due to warm temperatures. Have been feeding since Jan. 01 in SC, HFCS.

Virtually all of our losses are a result of untreated hives.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joel, How are you feeding the ones in SC?


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## PA Pete (Feb 2, 2005)

Bill: My one hive was also too damp. I added another top entrance and also put a pile of dry granulated sugar on paper on the top bars to absorb moisture - seems to have done the job.

-Pete

[ January 07, 2006, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: PA Pete ]


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

bees are weak on stores here due to lack of rain since june, but so far loss has been minimum. maybe 4 total and fairly randomly spread. my guess would be late season loss of queens, but the game ain't over till that fat lady sings. I will do my final count come late february.


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

This past season has had a lot of new experiences for me. My first hive (did extremely well and did a fall 3 way split. They seem fine at this time. I bought 8 nucs and put them in an out yard with enough frames to fill a 10 frame deep. One was dead when I checked on Christmas day, and a second one dead by 01-04. I felt horrible. I could find no reason and looking through a previous thread gave me no answers. My losses have been low compared to others who posted here, and I guess the decision is: Take my lumps and go for expansion this spring as planned. Thank you all for posting. I thought it was me alone.


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

Gearge and Pete,
I do have an upper intrance, but I wonder if it is big enough. I removed most of the lower interance gaurd but the bees are not down there at all. They are all right on the top of the top brood chamber. I do have a sugar cake top lide and they seem to be eating the sugar there, so I am not too worried about food. Maybe I need to drill another hole near the top, but don't want to disturb them too much this time of year unless you think i really should.
Bill


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Mark, My Dad lives there.

I've noticed the high moisture this year in NY. I think the humidity is contributing greatly here. 89% today.

[ January 08, 2006, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

I put a 3/4" shim with a 1/2" hole in it on top of the inner cover, which has it's hole open too. This also gives me more headspace for feeding if/when I do that. On top of all that I put a piece of 1/2" homasote for insulation, but mostly to absorb moisture. Then I propped the telescoping cover up with a 3/4" stick. It seems to be working, I haven't opened the hives yet, but I'm not seeing any signs of excessive moisture. We'll see. The bees have been using the 1/2" hole in the shim as an entrance.

Opening the bottom entrance up won't help with ventilation if there's insufficient ventilation at the top. Perhaps you could try propping up the inner cover a fraction?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>that doesn't give me much time to get my stock in order.

I understand. Your beekeeping in a different environment than I. Africanized bees arnt problematic here, yet??

You must have beekeepers bringing in or breading hygenic, or tolerant stock around your operation? Why not bring those lines into your stock before you get start focusing your stock? 

YOu can still get by breading from your own stock now, you know. And keep the mite levels low using treatments. This will buy you the time to get your stock in line, and save you a lot of stock in the mean time


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

As of January 8: 
Catskill Yard: 9 of 9 hives doing well
Round Top- Mtn Ave Yard: 4 of 4 hives doing well
RoundTop- Mtn Camp Yard: 28 of 30 hives doing well, (1) questionable, (1) Dead that was queenless in August.

As a side note:
Friend's hives in Boonton NJ 3 of 3 hive, plus observation hive all doing well.

All hives feed light syrup with spearmint and wintergreen oils in the fall. Wrapped and set up with an empty box, paper, and granular sugar.

[ January 08, 2006, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: MountainCamp ]


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## PA Pete (Feb 2, 2005)

Bill: My top entrance/ventilation looks like this. I didn't want to drill holes in my existing equipment for the sake of winter ventilation, so I built a couple of the shims/top entrances you see in the photo. I have an empty deep (or equivalent) on top of each hive as suggested by MountainCamp in another thread, topped off with the 1-1/2" shim/top entrance, an inner cover, and the outer cover. The empty deep gives me room for the sugar or feed jars and lets me look in for a quick inspection without disturbing the cluster. I think the top entrance is maybe 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" in diameter.

-Pete


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I went to my outyard and found one dead hive. It was the only Italian hive I had left from some nice Northern Italians from David Eyre. It was the only hive in that yard that made honey last year. It's full of stores and a very large very dead cluster of bees.  

The rest were all ferals and they were all doing fine.


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

Pete, if you have an empty deep on top, doesn't that make it harder for the bees to keep warm? It gets pretty cold here in Iowa and I fear they would freeze. It that is not a problem, then I would like to do that to fee suryp soon. Again, i am new to this and don't know when I should try to build up the hive. I bet it is a month too soon.
Bill


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Bill, I have been using an empty box on top as feeder boxes during the winter for years.
We get in the -25F range during the winter.
I start my spring feeding of light syrup here toward the end of February and there is still alot of winter left.


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

11 of 13 hives look good. 2 had dwv last fall and they are leaving lots of bees in the snow, and not much debris on the stickyboard. They probably won't make it. No meds.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

55 of 59 look ok so far. The deadouts: 

1 - this was my "russian" hive in it's 3rd year with no treatment of any kind. Looks like the population dwindled due to varroa. The queen was unmarked (ie not the original queen).
1 - This was an August removal that apparently became queenless - started small, got smaller, died.
1 - Up until late December this was a very strong hive. Examination revealed ZERO honey. The caps had been chewed/ripped off all honey stores. Large number of dead bees on the bottom, a few varroa. Some still capped pupae, but no other stages of development. My diagnosis is this hive was robbed out, most bees killed outright and remainder starved. It was in a 21 hive outyard - I think the other hives ganged up on it even though it was stronger than at least 18 of the other hives.
1 - This hive is still alive but will likely die. It was a October removal. I normally don't do removals that late, but the old building had literally collapsed. The owner wanted to remove the rubble and would have killed the bees anyway.

All hives (except the russian) were treated twice with OA vapor: the 1st treatment was about Nov 15, the 2nd treatment 2 weeks later. The 55 remaining hives are all "feral" with small clusters. Most of these are partually regressed to small cell (hope to complete regression for a few of these in 2006). Two hives are double-queen (essentually two colonies sharing a single hive that is partitioned vertically). This was an overwintering experiment - surprisingly these two hives are doing as well or better than others (knock on wood).


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Joel:

I have to agree with Ian that outside varroa stock should be brought in to your outfit. There's no sense trying to reinvent the wheel, especially that you are trying to overwinter some in a tougher climate. I'm not entirely confortable that I have to treat but it is far better than the alternative. I could not afford the losses.

So Ian who is raising the varroa resistant stock in Manitoba? Or are you using some of the Saskatraz stock?

Jean-Marc


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

So far, two dead out of 10. I will start feeding in March. Weather hasent been to bad. Not as much rain as usual with a little higher temps than normal.... around 45-55.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Saskatraz stock?

Not sure exactly where it is being derived form.

You know Phil V here in MB. I had gotten queens from him a couple of year back. Wow. I bought them blindly, notknowing what stock they were along with an extractor I bought from him. I tell you they are the most hygenic stock I have ever seen, and productive!!

I guess, there is russian in them,? But I know they are area select stock. From a group of beekeepers here in MB dedicating their resources to promote this trait. 

My neighbours are using the queens, and apperently one isnt using treatmetns anymore,.? He has 1200 hives. I am going to investigate that a little further as I see him in Feb at our convention.
Sound like a story, but I have seen these queens. I would not put it out as a story, yet anyway


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Just walked in the door from checking four yards. 

Yard #1 had 17 hives alive 3 dead
14 nucs alive 6 dead

Yard #2 had 16 hives alive 1 dead
14 nucs alive 9 dead

Yard #3 had 17 hives alive 0 dead

Yard #4 had 16 hives alive 1 dead

I was expecting a 50% kill for the nucs as they are stand alone 5 frame nucs. No stacking together and no feeders. No treatments.

The hives at this point absolutely have me smiling. They have not been treated and in Yard #1, of the three dead-outs, 2 of them were remnants of an apiary that floated down the river and were small clusters in very waterlogged equipment.

I hope this pattern continues with the out yards.

I'll sleep better tonight....


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Saskatraz is the name ( I think ) of a project involving Saskatchewan beekeepers who are trying to breed for varroa tolerance. I think they had gotten some Russian stock to start with and some of the local stuff. I do know Phil V, I met him in Vancouver at Apimondia and one year I was in Man. at the3 convention trying to sell Australian packages.

Jean-Marc


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Greetings . . .

My single hive appears to be O.K. (for now). Last falls mite counts were in excess of 200. Last few counts (in Dec) range from 0 to >2.

During past 10 days, we have had temps in the 50s. I have seen good flight during this time. Have NOT opened hive. 

Still checking sticky board every 7 days. Last check showed 5 rows of debris, 1 dead very small worm (.17" lg), and a 3 x 3" area at entrance of very dense debris (couldnt see through). No moisture (dropplets) detected, no pollen, no light (white) mites on sticky board. (Probably little or no brood.)


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>> I do know Phil V, I met him in Vancouver 

He is one of the bunch who are working on this project. 
Perhaps the two groups are working together,?
I had seen a presentation on the MB group, and it showed termendous results. 

It is something to look further into jean-marc. I dont know, mabe they arent everything I am saying about them. But they sure got my attention.

Their work is the future of our beekeeping operations, it is exactly what is needed up here. A good lined locally adapted mite tolerant honey produceing bee. 
Their idea, collectively donate a few selected hives (for all traits they want) and pool them together. Testing and further narrowing from that stock into area select lines. I believe they are mixing russian in with another line also. 
Continual selection of stock, and continual focus on desired traits, have lead them to what they have now.
Their idea is to then provide cell between all the members, and provide themselves with a superiour stock. And provide the extra to others interested, like me!!

Cant wait to see whats going to be availiable in 5 years.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Right now I have celled 80 increase nucs or so from the mothers of a few of these queens I purchased. Im going either bread from a few of these nucs, or go back and purchase a bunch more cells. 
Either way, I am looking to largely expand these traits in my bees!!


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Checked hives Jan 8th: 6 of 6 still buzzing.

All 5 langs were alive

My Top Bar hive was alive.

I was very happy thought for sure I had some deadouts. 

3 hives were producers last year, one carni requeened fall of 2004, other 2 producers were italians started from packages spring of 2004

1 was a split done June 2005 from TBH

1 was a split done Sept. queened with a sippy Bee queen i took in trade for an empty tbh. Added frames of honey and fed this one, only 3 mediums deep. 

All hives still had stores, carnis were way up high. All on SBB, all but the sippy bee hive have the SBB open.

All but the sippy bee hive were treated with OA vapor on Nov. 15th.

Hives not wrapped but protected by straw bales.


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

2005 It was a record wet winter. came out of winter with 9 out of 10 hives dead.

2006 We've been in drought here for 7 months and there was no fall flow. Only bright side to the drought is that the temps are high and humidity low so feeding is possible. After combining two weak hives still 3 for 3. 

Spring flow? not without rain.

North of Fort Worth - worst drought on record

* Pretty much down to sitting around and cursing the weatherguy on TV


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

Went into winter with 11 hives of various breeds. 2 Italians, 3 NWC, 2 West Virginia, and 4 Russians Hybreds(from Bjornbee). There are only 4 total hives left, all russian/hybred. Granted I went into winter with all hives single deeps except for the one NWC. I noticed what appeared to be a large varroa problem in mid july and through out the late summer. All hives are screened bottom boards left open. I observed one russian hives mite drop all summer and am continuing to do so now. There was about 40 mites after about two months november and december. Most of the hives were nucs i made in May. About 6 or 7 of them starved out. There wasn't much, if any rain around for the bees to build up. 
Seems the NWC cant handle mites during winter well. The two NWC were my strongest hives coming out of that cold spell in December. Now they are both gone. All I can think is mites. There cluster went form pouring out the top of the inner cover when I checked on them. To a small clump of dead froze bees. They both had about 5 frames each of honey. I split that up and gave it to the surving bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What I find interesting here is that people are taking stock of their winter kill now. But, maybe that isn't unusual where y'all live. Here, in NY, beekeepers don't start counting their winterkill until March, at the earliest. 

But I haven't finished counting my Summer Kill yet. So, what do I know? I know enough to tell you that I don't know what I am doing. ala BjornBee

Mark B.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I take stock every few weeks. 

When a hive dies can give an indication as to the cause and what course of action is needed to correct problems.

I have found that over the years, the vast majority of my winter loses, were actually early spring loses.

I was losing colonies in March and early April that had started rearing brood again, became anchored and a cold snap pulled them in and away from stores.

That is the reason I started wrapping hives. It made a significante difference for me with this problem.

[ January 10, 2006, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: MountainCamp ]


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I agree with MountainCamp on checking hives all winter. If you can determine why a hive died out, it would help you take corrective action for the remaining hives. But you can always wait for spring, and then figure out why all your hives died.....


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I have found that many hives dead by January first are desease and mite problem hives. The hives dying after Jan first are what mountaincamp said, starve outs and other reasons.

I think a mid-winter inspection allows you to feed if needed, count what you may need come spring, and allows you to have a gameplan so to speak. Waiting till spring and trying to find out what killed a mass of three month old moldy bees, is a little easier if you take a look mid-winter. Now is a good time also to do those winter-time chores, like cleaning some deadouts.

I think waiting till the early spring or any later than this, also puts you at a great disadvantage in ordering bees and queens.


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

BjornBee,

I sent you a PM.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Yuleluder, Thanks.


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## carbide (Nov 21, 2004)

As of Christmas day:

8 hives dead out of 14 = 57% dead

Out of the 6 that are still alive, 5 of them are more than a year old. One of them was an early 2005 spring split.

Out of the 8 that died, 4 of them were at least one year old. 4 of them were early 2005 spring splits.

All of the dead outs appear to be mite related. All of them had a lot of honey left in the frames and the hives were de-populated by mites to the point that there weren't enough bees left to form a large enough cluster to keep warm. The bottom boards of some of the hives were red with dead mites along with the bees.

All of my hives were treated with checkmite in the fall.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Bjorn,

Is this considered to be an unusually bad season. It seems like a lot of PA beekeepers are posting high loses. I shook out 50% (4/8) of my hives in fall (lost one to a bear), compared to 20% (1/5) last year. The remaining ones have smaller than usual clusters (this might be related to Russian queens).


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## Pete0 (Mar 30, 2002)

Here in Southeastern Virginia we are having some very mild weather. All of my 5 hives were flying this past weekend. My only hope is that they are rearranging their stores to prepare for late JAN and FEB. None of the feeders are empty so it has me wondering. I'm going to make up some fondant this weekend and do a presentation at our club meeting this Monday on how to prepare it with some samples. Just don't want these colonies to starve before March. I've read that fondant is a better winter feed than heavy syrup or straight sugar, we'll see.

Hoping for zero winter losses!

Pete0


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Aspera, Bad season??

Thats really what I am trying to find out. I think that for almost two weeks in December, I did not have temps above freezing. And several nights were around minus 5 degrees. Nothing unusual, but its been awhile for cold like that in December. They did get a break for couple days right before Christmas and the past couple days have been nice.

I really started this thread to get an idea, mainly due to several conversations with beekeepers last week. 3 out 4 were over 50% and the other was just below that. These are beekeepers I know and they do at least a good job in keeping bees. I am not sure it was the cold. My initial fears were perhaps a virus that was more damaging this year. Like a cold or flu, some years are just worse. I was hoping that it was not something that we had no control over, like a deadly sweeping virus or something like that.

I know one beekeeper last year that lost all 24 hives. His hives were inspected, and sure some had mites. But treatments were used and feed was not an issue. Unfortunately bee samples were not preserved for testing. I think a virus wiped him out. But there is alot we don't know about yet. I do know that there was no way that his bees would of seemed possible for 100% kill rate.

The other thing that I have been looking at, is the yard by yard death rates. There sometimes seems as if one yard is spared, and the next yard is devestated. Same type bees, same beekeeper and same treatments. Was it like having one family all come down with the flu, and the nieghbors family not getting it?

At this point I am not sure about anything. But from what I am hearing, this is not going to be a good year.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>All of my hives were treated with checkmite in the fall.

That's rough carbide. I've lost one hive so far for the same reason you cite- depopulation. That's often the problem with fall treatments if the mite loads are high and the damage has already been done.

Any idea of the level of effectivness of the checkmite treatment?


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

George, this is the reason why I feed light syrup in the fall and for as long as possible.
If I can keep the queen laying even at a reduced rate, I have increased the population of younger bees in the colony.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

I'd heard that before MountainCamp, perhaps from you even. Last fall I was more concerned with increasing stores than I was with brood rearing so I fed 2:1 syrup, heavily. I'm glad I did, I hefted a few hives today and they all seem to be doing OK so far.

I wonder, could you feed both 2:1 syrup to increase stores AND at the same time feed 1:1 syrup to stimulate egg laying? I'm not sure how one would do this, or if given a choice of feed, which the bees would choose. Ideally, I wouldn't have to do either but.. they want to shut down brood rearing and put up stores come fall. In some circumstances, I'd like them to extend brood rearing for a while.

I'm getting used to bees not doing what I'd like them to do. Any thoughts on this?


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

>> that had started rearing brood again,


That is my concern. It will be 55 degrees here tomorrow and has been fairly warm for the last 2 weeks. The warm weather looks to continue. I am concerned that the queen may start laying again and anchor the cluster. 

We have a long way to go here before spring. We will see sub-zero weather again before the first spring pollen.

13 out of 13 strong and healthy. While I'm encouraged, it is strongly tempered with *We have a long way to go here before spring.* 

I'll let you know in April.


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

I also have the same concerns as dtwilliamson. I have noticed some eggs which have fallen through the screened bottom brds. I put some syrup out there when it started to get warm, so I'm a bit concerned that this may cause the queen to start laying again. Can anyone quell my concerns?


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

It is normal for queens to start laying in Jan. As long as the weather holds, you won't have a problem, but it is still a long way to spring. Assuming the hive would make it through a normal winter, IMHO, you really shouldn't be concerned about it. Just be sure to provide enough feed until the first spring flow.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It is normal for queens to start laying in Jan. 

They sometimes do even in cold winters.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Has anyone started feeding protein yet? I was going to wait until the end of Feb, but now I'm not so sure of the timing.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Aspera, I have pollen at the feeding station. If its warm enough to fly, they get pollen. I'll put patties on in a couple weeks. Tomorrow is suppose to be warm.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

ok the weather was an unbelieveable 50F. so i checked all hives and the offical results are in. from our outdoor wintered hives we had 86 hives and we lost 10 hives form those so a 11%. 
The indoor wintered hives we put 65 weak hives in this fall hopeing to get like a 50% survival rate but so far we have lost 10 so a 15% dieoff. we have about 10 more indoors that will probably die yet this year. all hives that died inside it was because of nosema. the ones out side look like all went into winter with no enought bees half of them died from nosema. one quarter look like they died due to V-mites the other quarter look to have starved. No hives we treated with anything this last spring or this fall with any thing other than Honey-bee-healthy in the feed. 
regards Nick


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Did my rounds today:

So far no losses

20 colonies wintered.
All are fine.

1 feral in a whiskey barrel.
Checked out ok

1 feral still in the stud wall in my yard.
Checked out ok.

Joe Waggle,
SW. Pennsylvania


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## chief (Apr 19, 2005)

I'm still 4/4. I had them on feed till nearly thanksgiving. The weather has been cold for December but just warmed up and I had them flying a few times recently. One hive seems to be weaker than the rest but it is an old queen of unknown origin and has had a lot of deformed wing bees for almost all of last year. I have an empty box on them with a pound of sugar on newspaper and they havent touched it so maybe their weakness is only perceived. I treated all of them with checkmite in late October. I hope to switch to OA this year and am planning to make a Plexiglas crack pipe before spring. Anybody have any plans for crack pipes?


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Updated Information:
Round Top- Mtn Camp Yard: 28 of 30 hives doing well, (2) dead - (1)of the Dead that was queenless in August. 

To date: Lost 2 of 43, had expected to lose 5 or so from home yard based on over saturation and poor flows last summer / fall.

On the up side, a (5) frame hive picked up in NJ in October is still going.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

mountain camp when will you start feeding, and what will you feed? [sorry for the off-topic post]


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

David all of my hive currently have granular sugar on paper. All the hives were up using this feed today when I check them. I put a few gallon feeders on some of the hives. I will take them back off when the temps look like they will drop back to seasonal for a while. 
I usually start feeding light syrup with oils again toward the end of February.
My plans are to stay around 40 hives or so. At this point it doesn't look like I will have to make up for loses. 
I have been asked by a few locals to make some nucs up in May. I am kicking it around. 
If I don't make up some nucs or need to make up for loses, may plans are to go through the hives and allow them to re-queen themselves about 2 weeks prior to the swarm season starting.


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## RAlex (Aug 18, 2001)

15 total hives going into fall in various stages
(3 splits, 6 nucs, 5 overwinterd last year, 1 swarm )
6 dead- one appeared to have been queenless, 2 have a lot of stores in upper deep.1 hive never seemed to catch up with others last year so it was expected .Need to look for cause of death in other two .
I used no treament last year and dont plan on doing so in future. I do plan to make nuc`s as well as trying a top bar on natural cell size.
I will also set out top-bar swarm traps this year .Inspected these hives today (55 degrees) . The bees were moving around in the hives and flying ...Regards to all ...Rick Alexander


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## Kris^ (Jan 10, 2006)

6 for 6 so far. All are wrapped, have sugar boards on top, each took in 50-60 lbs. of syrup in the fall, and were treated with OA vapor in late November.

5 flying good in the warm weather we've had this week, The sixth is less active. It was a split I made in mid-September with five frames of capped brood pulled from other hives, a queen someone gave me when he combined a couple hives, plus frames of honey and pollen (and pollen patties). The upper box was a drawn super that they filled and capped before the cold weather set in. Although it's not flying heavily, I hear a lot of activity inside when I place my ear against the side and rap. I'm disinclined to open it up and look inside because it's still wrapped. 

I guess I'll find out how it did in a month or so.


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## DocOz (Sep 19, 2004)

Lost 5 out of 20 hives (25% loses) so far. Two of the five had decent size clusters still in the hives but dead in a big mass. Still don't know why other than mites.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

6 for 6 alive so for here, have 1 hive in a single deep and its doing fine


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## chief (Apr 19, 2005)

Since we have been discussing feeding... and I know most who post here don't approve of entrance feeders... but when can one start using an entrance feeder? It's been in the mid 40's to mid 50's here but raining. They wont fly when its raining but will they feed? Ive also heard that if you start feeding you cant stop until a flow starts. Why would this be? Mountain Camp you seem to be the resident pro on wintering... any thoughts on this?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Well lost one in SC. My dad called today to tell me he ran over a hive with his truck. I can't possibly imagine why he had the truck IN the beeyard. What can you do, it's the Dad! Now that's what I call winter kill!


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## kenpkr (Apr 6, 2004)

Joel, you're a good man for having a sense of humor about your "winter kill". I hope that's the only one you lose all winter, naturally and accidentally.


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## kbee (Mar 6, 2005)

Had 6 hives going into winter. 2 swarms caught last june, 2 NWC nucs, and a split Italian hive. Checked yesterday and found both Italians dead, I expected 1 loss, weak hive going into winter. I treated nucs and splits with formic acid this fall. No treatment to the swarms. Swarms on natural cell. But as mentioned befor we have a long way to go.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Down 25% at this point. Blowing through stores like crazy. Fortunately the weaker ones are the ones that died.

Dickm


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

>>>>if you start feeding you cant stop until a flow starts. Why would this be? 

Chief, I believe this is due to the risk to brood. When you start feeding, you may start the brood rearing cycle, in which case they will need a continous supply of syrup (addition of pollen would help).

I still have 6 of 6 but with a record warm January I am worried that they are too active.

[ January 14, 2006, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: JohnBeeMan ]


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

">>>>if you start feeding you cant stop until a flow starts."

It is basically and simply about stores and starvation.

The extra brood raised from feeding will require extra food.

Brood can and will be feed diluted honey from stores during late winter into spring to get the population growng again for the season.

But, the stores have to be there to support the hive till a steady supply of nectar is coming in.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

well this pink bunny just keeps on checking....

as of saturday I am now down 6 hives, likely have two more (very weak numbers but a good queen) that I will combine. if these numbers hold thru the end of february. total fall and winter loss at this location would be exactly 10%.

Dr Oz sezs:
Lost 5 out of 20 hives (25% loses) so far. Two of the five had decent size clusters still in the hives but dead in a big mass. Still don't know why other than mites

tecumseh ask:
was their any stores of honey and pollen in the dead outs and why would make you think mites?

joel sezs:
Well lost one in SC.

tecumseh replies:
have you ever noticed joel that as you have gotten older that your zipper is much more difficult to keep in the up position . I call this old man complex, got a touch of it myself. so as to your question as to why your dad had the truck in the beeyard I would offer the same analysis. this complex was something I saw in my father during his latter years as he always seemed to be running over something with the farm tractor. 

just a thought...


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

tecumseh you probably hit the nail on the head. 10 yrs ago he would have parked the truck and walked through the yard to see what was going on at the entrances. Between his diabetes and the other aches and pains that we all collect with age he was probably trying to drive the truck close enough to see what was going on, had a moment of CRS and backed over a hive. He felt bad about the loss (We expect to make $500-$600 off a successfully wintered south hive in a season) I say it's a small, small price for the privilage of having a stepfather who is that interested in keeping a patriarical eye on every part of my life! I know there will come a day when I'll wish he was there to back over another one.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>What can you do, it's the Dad!

What in deed. Take away his driver's licence? Buy him some glasses?

In any case, that's a rough way to lose a hive Joel. I'm glad you can joke about it.


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

Went from 100 to 60, which was much better than last year when I went from 100 to 30. Bees starting to explode with warm weather, lots of nectar and wet soil expected at least til the end of next week, so they will hopefully continue. Should be able to continue harvesting one shallow every two weeks from strong hives till first week of Feb and then to almonds.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Opened the tops on all of them yesterday. I thought one was dead at first but found a small cluster over to one corner and down where I didn't see them.

It's clear now that the untreated small cell are way ahead of the untreated large cell I "inherited" this year. The large cell are dwindling. The small cell seem to have more bees than last time I looked. They all went into the winter with about the same size cluster.

They're in my open pollen feeder a lot.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Lost another hive (now down to 54 out of 59). This one is a mistery. 2 weeks ago it was strong, taking syrup, bringing in pollen, very few mites. Examination revealed: no disease, a few capped brood, only about 400 dead bees, no queen, no mites, 3 or 4 capped frames of honey (some evidence of robbing but not massive). If I didn't know better, I'd say they absconded - but bees don't do that in the winter, do they? Any ideas?


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I did a real inspection on my 12 Saturday. Everybody was in good shape. Good numbers of bees in every box. Decent stores. Most had at least a hand sized patch of capped brood, some had much more. I found a queen or three, but didn't really look that hard. My old feral queen is still laying (and still marked). Everybody was bringing in pollen, even those not yet showing brood. The hot hive (that showed what appeared to be laying worker tendancies in the fall) had a nice frame of all worker brood. They must be the best robbers in the yard because they still had stores and I haven't fed them

[ January 16, 2006, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Ross ]


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Hey Joel, how do you make $500-600 per hive? Thanx,


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

We winter in in the south and start stimulation feeding in January. In April we pull the south honey crop (about 40- 50lbs/hive) and split them to 4 nucs. We sell 3 nucs and the 4th is kept for production. We run 2 queen units (on about 1/2 of our operation) which ups our average per hive between regular and 2 queen from the 75 lb avg in NY to about 150lb. per hive. We run pollen traps for about 6 weeks of the season averaging about 2 lbs/hive/wk. We sell everything retail at our NYC Markets. Here's the break down.

$3.50/lb avg. for honey X 200lbs...$600
3 nucs @ $65.......................$195
Pollen 12lbs @ 9.00/lb.............$108

Total..............................$975 (Gross)

Expenses 40%(high due to distance
from markets)......................$390

Profit.............................$585

We make additional income from candles and propolis as well as some cosemtics but it does not average out to much per hive. 

Retail and maximizing the hives at every stage of the season is the key.


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## Deano (Sep 4, 2004)

hi all, this is my 2ed year with17 hives. went out in full suit.to check out hives it started to rain. knocked on the hives with hive tool. all hives were still alive.the bees didn't like being bothered. ahbs are always on the back of my mind .if any are here i want them to tell me ,not my neigbors. i was happy with the results.no head butts no stings.just flew around.a little.will medicate and check for hive beetles when rain leaves.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Thanks Joel. I'm a little surprised that pollination is not part of your business. What kind of honey do you get in SC? I've been looking for a place to make some Tupelo (may have found it but it's 5 hours from Raleigh).


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