# Using a package as a cell builder



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Have you ever reared queens before? How many colonies do you have? Do you have the resources to mate a bunch of queens?


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## Hallrdave (May 29, 2015)

Last year did 3 rounds of grafting. Had pretty good results but got lazy with mite treatment and my hives suffered because of it


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## Hallrdave (May 29, 2015)

I'm looking to raise no more than 15-20 queens all together.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

It is doable, but you will have to pack about 5 pounds of bees or so into a nuc. A couple of frames of brood will hold the bees in the cell builder/nuc. Keep in mind the package bees are getting older every day. It is not an ideal situation, but certainly workable if you need the cells ASAP.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Do you have the resources to get 20 queens mated?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I would think that you could raise 15 or 20 cells in a single round with 3# of bees, but as joe pointed out, all they can do is die.

I have a client that ordered packages at the last minute. I thought about installing them with ripe cells I stead of the mated queens they ship with, but no matter how I run the timing and logic, it just makes more sense to install the packages (onto comb), let them build up a couple rounds of brood before doing any requeening, even if I have ripe cells handy on install, it just adds too much of a delay to raising brood in a package that has a clock ticking.

I'd install all the packages with queens...after 6 weeks you should be able to setup cell builders without tearing down any 1 hive too much, and have great conditions to raise and introduce the cells.

If you do really need or want cells this early from a package, I'd pull the queen after a few days (don't release her...leave her in the cage...just get the bees committed to the install) and give them grafts....pull and introduce the grafts after only 48 hours, and let the destination hive finish the single cell it is given.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

You need nurse bees to raise queen cells. Package bees are of unknown age, usually shaken off supers, not the location where nurse bees hang out.

The glands that produce royal jelly convert to producing invertase when bees age into the forager caste. This is one of the well studied changes that accompanies the changing level of juvenile hormone in the workers. The glands can "revert", but really you are swimming upstream.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I'm sure it happens, but no reputable supplier would make packages by shaking bees off sopers. I've never seen a package that looked as if it was made up of old bees.

Giving a package 20 queen cells instead of a laying queen or brood (as I described) is perfectly doable.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

The key (as mentioned in the original post) is to give the package capped brood along with pollen and syrup. A few frames of capped brood and you've got your young bees. 

20 cells might be a bit ambitious. But hey, it's worth a try, right?

Kind of a pricey way to make a cell builder, when you could use a nuc full of young bees ala David LaFerney.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

It is very unlikely to work well - you may get some queens, but why waste a lot of time and effort in the Spring when the peak of the nectar flow is on?. 

A cell builder should be a *STRONG* hive *with lots of capped brood* imported 10 days before grafting. You want the adult bees (18+ days old) bringing in pollen and nectar by the pound, and feed them 6 ways to January.

If you add a package onto drawn comb, separated by a newspaper, above a strong colony a week or 2 before importing the capped brood, go for it.

Up to 20 queen cells can be started and finished in a 6-frame queenless nuc', but I would build one 12" tall with 3 " of #8 hardware cloth on the sides along the bottom to ventilate it.

The place to start is, like JWCarlson says, to take stock of how many queens you can make mating nuc's for. Make a few more queens than that - not all will necessarily take.

You'll need mating nuc' boxes, robbing screens, feeders, frames of pollen, frames of honey, and capped brood enough to make a nuc'. Count every frame in the apiary, then do the end-game math. Work backwards from that.

Good luck!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I'm going to disagree...if I wanted a package to raise cells, I would give them minimal to no comb or foundation, and I'd plan to feed...especially pollen.

I would want them in a cluster hanging off of rhe cells, not spread on comb or foundation throughout the box.

Things like adding capped brood is really about making a cell builder that can be used over and over. Capped brood does not help feed the cells.

I think what a hopelessly queenless cluster can do with a little help is being greatly undersold.

As I said above, unless you really need the cells, you will get much more out of waiting at least a couple of brood cycles.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Just do it. If it works, great. If it doesn't work so well, you learn something.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Using packages to raise queen cells is a standard method of some queen breeders, including one I once worked for.

It was really convenience, we were making packages several times a week to make into baby nucs so always had packages on hand.

The method was to set up a swarm box which was closed and indoors, with either 2 or 3 frames of fresh nectar and pollen depending how many cells we were going to raise, the frames had to be really loaded so the bees were well fed. 

The newly collected 4 to 5 pound package was dumped in and bees generally left overnight or a minimum of 2 hours, so they would be well queenless. Then the newly grafted cells were put in, one or two frames of cells were put in, up to 96 cells but often 64, or only 32 to 48 if just 2 combs of feed were being used.

The queenless, broodless, and desperate bees did an excellent job of starting the cells and the next day the cells were transferred to queenright finisher hives at 16 cells per finisher. The bees in the swarm box were sometimes used another time or two but quickly tire of raising good cells and were used to make baby nucs and replaced with new bees in the swarm boxes.

Hallrdave, I suspect the reason you ask the question is because you do not have any existing hives strong enough to be cell raisers? I so you can use package bees to start queen cells but they are not so great at finishing them. But if you have to due to your existing hives being weak, what I would suggest is starting the cells in the manner I described, then at the one or two day mark place the starter hives a long way from the other hives to prevent drift, knock them back to 16 cells each, and give them 2 frames of fresh brood, one on each side of the cell frame, this brood will have to be checked later for rogue queen cells to make sure no rogue queen cells hatch first and kill your grafted ones. If no flow have a syrup feeder for them so they feel well fed. When the cells are due to hatch the bees could either be requeened or made into mating nucs.

One other thing, if using a closed cell starter have plenty of ventilation, if doing it in a standard super I would suggest manufacturing a mesh screen to use on it. The starter should be kept in a dark room so the bees are not working into a frenzy trying to escape out the mesh. Once the starter hive has been put outside and opened the mesh should be removed and they just have a very small entrance. Brood must be given at this point or the bees will drift away.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

OT...that's good advice and experience.

I would probably just plant the cells 48hours post graft and call it a day.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Honestly, I can't believe we're having this discussion. To me, with all I've learned about raising quality queens, raising queen cells in a 3 pound package is absurd. Will you get some cells. OT's method will give you some queen cells. He's using a 4-5 pound package, and then a queen-right finisher. Does the OP have a finisher?

All I can say is, why bother. If you're going to spend time and resources on raising queens, quality must trump quantity, always. No exceptions in my opinion. If you're raising rubbish, you're in denial.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I didn't think the OP or any of the posts have tried to make any kind of case for 'quantity over quality'.....it's about experimenting with queen rearing a bit early with an extra package.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> All I can say is, why bother. .


Because people like to try different things.

I'm in the restaurant business. Recently a place opened up; a Bike Shop/Tequila Bar. My reaction was Wha.....?
Buy hey, it's their money. 
Come on in, buy a bike and have a shot! Free chips and salsa.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

This, from Better Queens by Jay Smith -

"A matter that I believe most of us have overlooked is the necessity of food and water for the confined bees. All have observed how bees carry water in abundance when rearing brood. Now this water is even more necessary when rearing queens for the bees require more water when producing the milk in abundance. The best way to provide this is to fill the center comb with diluted honey. This not only provides the necessary water but the food it contains acts as a flow of nectar. In case some 50 cells are to be started from five to six pounds (2 to 3 kg) of bees should be used. In case from 75 to 100 cells are to be started from 8 to 10 pounds (3.5 to 4.5kg) of bees should be put in. If larger number of bees are put in the starter hive should be kept in the shade or some cool place. The screens on the sides provide an abundance of ventilation........

Finishing the Cells

While the bees are now busily engaged in remodeling the cells, we must prepare to have them finished, for they should not remain in the starter hive more than 24 hours for the best results. Again I shall tell what we do and then tell why we do it. The best colony for finishing cells is a strong queenless colony". 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm

So the 4 to 5 pounds of bees I suggested is light for the upper number of cells I mentioned.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

DeKnow - I was thinking along the lines that Michael Palmer thinks. Capped brood placed 10 days before grafting delivers the 30,000 excess nurse bees at the right age to do the finishing. Oldtimer gets away with it because he knew what he was doing by doing it a lot and regularly. A new queen rearing bloke will have a challenge and is unlikely to get all the details flying in formation. The likely result will be fairly poor queens.

Yes, it is doable with a package, but far better if the package is combined with a strong colony. 

What about later on, when the bees realize that her ovarioles are poorly developed? Not enough 5- to 10-day-old nurse bees likely means not enough feeding visits. Not enough visits means not enough food. 

Does he have a drone colony or 2? Is he near a DCA? If they are poorly developed AND poorly mated, they will be supercecded PRONTO.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

My reading of OT's account was that it worked because he had enough bees for the job, and only really tried to get one round out of a package.

In some ways it is easier and less detail oriented than more standard aproaches (that doesn't mean I recommend it). A couple of frames with pollen and honey (all bees shaken off in parent colony...don't have to locate the queen), cell bar frame, and dump the package on them (priming them with a frame of brood might help). Feed appropriately, and I'd just plant the cells after 48 hours, and shake the package into the box.

My biggest concern about doing this would be recent (or persistent) treatments of the bees before packaging. I would not want to raise a queen from bees recently treated with coumaphos or fumidill.


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## Hallrdave (May 29, 2015)

Thanks everyone for confirming my suspicions. The plan was to use this as a cell starter and move the grafts to a stronger hive for finishing.

I think it'll be best to install the package as normal and wait several weeks till they're strong enough to make them into a true cell builder (with the help of the other hives as resources). I was wondering the feasibility of this...

I'll try to post a few pics when I do my grafts.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I completely respect that take, Deknow, and Jay Smith says 5 or 6 lbs, not 4 or 5 lbs of 50 cells...I'll try boosting even stronger next time around. I've already upgraded from using a 5-frame nuc' for a starter to one of OT's 6-framers with 3" of vent along each side. I'll set up a 10-framer for a starter to fit all those bees into, but still raise 15 cells at a time a la David LaFerney. 

*Hallrdave* - If instead you had ordered an over-Wintered nucleus colony to use for a cell starter trying for 15 queens (transferring them to a strong finisher after 24 hours), I'd say that's fine, but a package is EMPHATICALLY NOT an over-Wintered Nuc'.

A beek' could add a package to an O.W.N. and make a finisher - I do that almost every year. 2 weeks later, they're coming and going like swarm strength, then I import the capped brood and begin the calendar. So, about 24 days before Grafting Day is when I add the 5-lbs package to a (hopefully a 14-frame SoCal increaser colony). 

If the colonies are not that strong, I combine 3 colonies - one at a time.

Thanks to all for the discussion. :thumbsup:


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## yem (Jan 19, 2010)

I just did what Hallrdave said....Let the package build up on drawn comb for a month then I removed the queen then added a frame of emerging brood to go with the other 2 frames of brood and one frame of honey and one of pollen gave them syrup and pollen sub and added my 10 grafts a few hours later. A small start but I will use this 6 frame deep starter/finisher colony all season, by way of adding brood when needed and grafts every 10 days or so.


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