# great questions



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

"Hello I have seen the posts of you and Michael Bush etc about your success in the face of the TF-critics. I started my 2 Italian hives 24 days ago, and had the impression, from Bush's site, that I could just leave them to their own devices the majority of the year then do splits, and collect comb honey. But all I see is beekeepers claiming amazing success with TF and beekeepers saying it is the dumbest concept in beekeeping. But what I have to wonder is, how feral colonies survive for several years? I might buy some emergency treatments, but why is there such a division among beekeepers if we only have to reproduce better bees?"

i received this via private message today from one of our new contributors.

it so exemplified the current state of affairs that i felt it was worth sharing with the forum.

(sender, i have kept you anonymous and i hope you don't mind)

to the question of feral colonies surviving for years:

there are some with the point of view that there are no ferals surviving, that all you are seeing with unmanaged colonies are this year's swarms, that they will likely collapse due to mites, that they cannot survive winter, that the cavity will become occupied the following spring by another swarm, thus making it look like to a casual observer that the bees are surviving year after year.

i'm no expert, but i do believe there are parts of the country that may indeed not have any true feral survivors. these would include areas where there is little natural habitat or adequate forage to promote and sustain feral colonies, as well as areas that hold vast numbers of migratory/commercial hives.

on the other hand there are areas which can and do support feral colonies because of large expanses of wooded lands, bountiful and diverse plant life, temperate weather, and little to no pressure from commercial operations. alabama is such a place and there are other places like that as well.

if one google searches 'feral honeybees' they will find several studies done by qualified researchers who have located feral colonies, observed them surviving winters, and determined through genetic testing that these are not escaped swarms from commercial stock.

to the second question regarding the division among beekeepers and reproducing better bees:

i think most of it is that with beekeeping there are many variations on the theme that tend to lead to very personalized approaches and those approaches can be held near and dear to a lot of beekeeper's hearts. i don't hold a strong view that my approach is 'the' way and that everyone else should be doing the same. there are many reasons for keeping bees as well as different objectives or goals and it's these considerations that typically govern the management strategy.

again, i've only been at this for a short time but it looks to me as though the industry is making a concerted effort at developing better bees. some would say that it doesn't look like much progress is being made or even can be made. i honestly don't know. in the mean time randy oliver's admonition to those of us working with resistant stock to propagate the heck out of them makes good sense and it's what i and others are trying to do.

in the end i find myself feeling very fortunate that i am located where i am, that there is a wild strain of bee here surviving varroa, and that i lucked into them when starting my apiary. i really didn't know anything about mites when i started, but after seeing that i can sustain an operation off treatments year after year and should it continue this way i don't foresee using any.

specifically regarding your 2 new italian hives, and depending where they came from and where you are located, they may or may not thrive off treatments. my advice for beginners is to try and find someone having success off treatments in their area, obtain bees from them, and mirror their management practices.

best of luck to you.


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## Royal (May 4, 2015)

Yes I wrote this because it seems illogical to keep breeding intervention-dependent bees with maybe slightly higher yield than to just raise more bees, let weak ones die, and have a fourth of the work. This year I will keep more natural treatments on hand and am really wanting to try using probiotics on my colonies, after seeing this site. http://bwrangler.litarium.com/probiotics/

I know that could be considered treating, but it doesn't seem to hurt the bees in any way and I don't mind just spraying my colonies during inspections, especially if it calms them. Im having trouble figuring out how exactly to make the probiotic, however. I figure it would be similar to making alcohol, adding spores to a sugar dissolved in water, using kombucha as the spores. 

I doubt that most feral colonies are escaped commercials doomed to failure. The majority of hive cutouts/removals are established colonies for several years. I can see opinions being close to beekeepers' hearts when they have 10000$ of Fumigil-B in their sheds however. If my colonies fail in spite of natural interventions this year, I will definately look into buying from a local TF breeder. My bees are from Georgia, and the store that received them acted like they were more TF than most.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I am replying to this thread, hoping it goes somewhere, because I am of like mind and would like to compare notes. 
I can't post anymore tonight, unless the electricity comes back on as my battery is getting low.

Thanks 
Alex


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Plenty of ferals here in E central IL been watching one particular colony for 3 yrs when you see them flying on warm days in Feb and every warm day untill spring there is no way for a swarm to move in without notice. Know of another that has cast a swarm reliably for the last 5 yrs


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## Royal (May 4, 2015)

To be honest, I am finding it hard to believe some of those in these forums aren't thinking of better ways to outsmart pests and diseases. The majority of pests seem to be overcome simply by maintaining strong(as in concentrated) colonies and splitting hives in a logical manner. Other diseases seem to be avoided just by breeding for resistance and having proper ventilation. I think TF will be making a comeback to become like it was 100 years ago. The biggest problem I am seeing TF beekeepers facing is varroa, which I might soon post a theory on hive splitting to defeat it.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

Where are the ferals?? Maybe they have been adapting?

http://kirkwebster.com/index.php/collapse-and-recovery-the-gateway-to-treatment-free-beekeeping


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