# trapping varroa



## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

Hello everyone. This is my first winter as a beekeeper. I have read extensively the posts here on bee source and have not come across anything about trapping varroa other than in drone brood. 
What I envision is a tray/pan under the screen bottom board with the brood pheremone on it that signals the varroa to enter the cell. Any thoughts?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Brood pheremones that attract varroa have been identified and used successfully in laboratory tests.

There was talk of commercial production of these chemicals, then nothing came of it.


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

look at ross conrads book natural beekeeping, he came up with a varroa trap that replaces a frame.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

A varroa trap that works?? Don't bet your bees on it.


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

michael have you ever tryd one? if not please dont ney say. if you have then post your experiance, beesource drives me crazy because so many folks on here dont offer any insight from personal experiance they just tell everyone else that what there doing isnt going to work. I dont have any experiance with varroa traps and am also interested if anyone else have tryed it. so lets talk about what we have seen or tryed and stay away from "dont bet your bees on it" kind of snarky remarks.


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

Yes, I know that people are trapping varroa in drone brood frames. Im new at this but I understand that varroa don't have eyes and knows when to enter the cell by the brood pheremone. Why can't we put that pheremone below a screen bottom board to get the varroa to willingly drop of the bees instead of just hoping they fall off and through the screen. This would also not use a whole frame of eggs and resources like drone foundation.


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

This would not really be trapping it would be just supplying the varroa what they are naturally looking for.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

re:" Don't bet your bees on it. "

I consider that to be valuable advice for a beginning beekeeper.
Too many beginers waste a lot of time and bees chasing rainbows,miracle cures and fads.
Experiment . Yes. But don't eat your seed corn.

"he came up with a varroa trap that replaces a frame. "
The chemical recommended was Methyl Palmitate.
Google that with varroa.
heres the first link that came up.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g8078268v5287426/


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

as far as i know, there is only one person anywhere recommending a "varroa trap" with a straight face.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ik...&resnum=3&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

...you can read the description (and see a picture) from his book here.

also, if you continue reading his description to page 119, you will read that his own account of using the trap also includes applying treatments in the fall.

deknow


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> Too many beginers waste a lot of time and bees chasing rainbows,miracle cures and fads.
> Experiment . Yes. But don't eat your seed corn.


Actually if there's one thing I've read on Beesource I'd agree with, it's that.

Since joining this forum it's been frustrating to see a constant stream of new beeks, or people who don't actually have a hive yet, coming out with all sorts of theories about how they are going to do it. Just reading these threads i KNOW it's going to end in tears, but they will defend their idea come what may.

Then when it does turn to custard they are dissillusioned and in some cases leave the hobby.

This way of thinking is also encouraged by the plethora of 'new agey, feel good" type beekeeping books and web sites, that say the mainstream methods are all wrong, or even evil. Reading these books it's sometimes pretty obvious that the author has a handful of hives and knows little about bees themselves, but is a persuasive writer. 

My advise to newbies is go with the tried and true, conservative methods, for at least a couple of years till you get a better understanding of bees. THEN experiment. Cautiously.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> My advise to newbies is go with the tried and true, conservative methods, for at least a couple of years till you get a better understanding of bees. THEN experiment. Cautiously.


Thats my advice to new beekeepers also, you know what drives me crazy about beesource, all the new beekeepers who think they have it all figured out, yet they dont realize that the older beekeepers have tried everything and continue to dedicate much effort at reducing and solving problems. I provided this advice before and as such will provide it again....the older beekeepers on here have dedicated their lives to bees, it their living NOT their hobby, just because you may not agree with their methods, advice, or "snarky" remarks does not mean they are not as dedicated as those with less experience, in fact I submit that those who have weathered the storms of beekeeping and consider it their primary income have more incentive to resolve mite, disease, and beetle problems that the average everyday hobby beekeeper. Don't bite the hands that feed you new beeks, its the oldtimers and commercial guys who have been here for years answering your same old questions over and over and over again...pretty patiently I might add. Thanks for all the great advice you OLD GUYS...I continue to learn everyday both in my yards and on this forum.. PS....I like the "snarky" remarks sometimes they make me laugh.


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

it seems to me that the tried and true conservative methods are more about chasing rainbows or magic bullets(chemical treatments) than the new agey feel good types that are trying to keep bees more in tune with nature. I cant speak for anyone else but me but it is downright frustrating trying to learn how to best care for these amazing little creatures when everyone tells you there is only one way. Ive been lucky enuff to spend some time with don the fat bee man and have learned alot, proffessors and scientist tell him all of the time that what he is doing wont work but thats all he does for a living and he dont look to skinny to me.

I have also been told I wouldent harvest a single tomato without using seven dust and chemical fertilizer, well thanks to good old compost and diatomatius earth I have enuf mason jars put up for two winters.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

hipbee said:


> it seems to me that the tried and true conservative methods are more about chasing rainbows or magic bullets.


There you go! :doh:


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

Im not talking about trapping with drone foundation, nor am I recommending traping with a straight face at this time. This was only intended to be a hey has anyone thought of this, can you add some insight, any thoughts or concerns. If you say it can't work because your in the stone age don't reply unless you can back it up with valid reasons. Thanks


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

welcome to beesource drice!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

well, for one, i expect if you put enough brood pheremone behind a screen to attract mites, you will also have constant cluster of nurse bees, lured away from the open brood.

all of the feedback loops in the hive that involve the amount of open brood will be out of whack. the bees regulate brood rearing, task assignment, foraging behavior, etc through the smells in the hive....if it smells like a full super of open brood below the screen the bees will take them into account when allocating resources.

...but i did not see your original post as a "recommendation", it was a question, and a valid one.

the varroa trap that was discussed (and that i linked to) was written about in a fairly main stream book in 1997, and has never been mentioned, discussed, or recommended by anyone other than the author as far as i can tell.

deknow


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks deknow, that is the kind of feedback im looking for. That was one of the things I had thought about, nurse bee congregating on the screen, but I think you would want that for this to be effective. As far as disrupting the natural flow of the hive, if this was only used for a short period of time would it be detrimworse,or any worse than the currently used techniques of mite control. How long would such a devise need to be in place to be effective. Would there be any more mites than a natural drop would give.
You know if you put a wire loop out in the middle of the woods at just the right place a coyote will come along and stick its head in it. Lol


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

Before this thread gets to far off track with what ifs. Can anyone say with certanty that varroa would or would not be attracted to artifical brood pheremone.


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

I think if it worked that well Ross Conrad would be alot richer and every supply company would carry them, im not saying because a bee supply company carries something it works! I am having alot of luck(making more hives than I lose every year) just using screened bottom boards and powdered sugar, and keeping small cell bees.


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

drice said:


> Before this thread gets to far off track with what ifs. Can anyone say with certanty that varroa would or would not be attracted to artifical brood pheremone.


I think that if anyone says anything on here with certanty, it wont be to long untill someone else says the opposite with even more certanty. Welcome to beekeeper discussion


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

True.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

hipbee said:


> michael have you ever tryd one? if not please dont ney say. if you have then post your experiance
> 
> so lets talk about what we have seen or tryed and stay away from...snarky remarks.


OK, no snarky remarks. 

I haven't tried one of Ross's varroa traps. Have you? Do you know anyone who has? There was some work done in the labs with the idea. Nothing's ever come of it or been shown effective in the field. Just because Ross Conrad says it's so, doesn't mean it is. Sounded good so he included it, and it helps sell a lot of books...oops, is that too snarky? Lots of things Ross says sound good. Some things I find offensive. One of those is to con folks into believing he has _"Found The Way"._ If his varroa trap is working so well, why is he in the process of converting his 40 colony apiary to small cell. Another thing i find offensive is how he blames the commercials for all our woes...finger wagging, finger wagging. We're all in this together folks.

Ross claims a lot. Claims to have learned everything he knows from the great bee master, Charles Mraz of Middlebury, Vermont. That claim reminds me of a debate years ago, between Benson and Quayle...was it for Vice President back around Regan/Bush era? I would change the names, but the idea is the still same.

Mr. Conrad, I knew Charlie Mraz. Charlie Mraz was a friend of mine. You're no Charlie Mraz.


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

I was not aware of the studies done on what chemical compound attracts varroa. That's why I posted my question here. Apparently there is not a smoking gun yet. At some point someone broke from the "tried and true" and stopped using skeps. If there was a way to not convert all your hives to small cell, not dust with powdered sugar, not usedrone foundation or use any of the countless chemicals people are using in their hives. And be able to effectively control varroa wouldn't you want it. I have read the threads on here constantly for over a year and know there are some very intelligent beekeepers here. When powdered sugar was first suggested did everyone stick their nose up at that? Some of you people are so quick to point your finger at someone else because they do things differently than you. Take a lesson from a first year been, what works for me in michigan may not work for you in florida.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

drice said:


> That was one of the things I had thought about, nurse bee congregating on the screen, but I think you would want that for this to be effective.


No, I wouldn't want that idea to be effective at the cost of worker brood dying due the confusion intentionally inflicted on the nurse bees. I would much rather the hive continue in its natural process with the added insertion of a frame of drone comb. 

If it is only a short period of disruption that you are considering, you can achieve the same by moving your queen and some workers into a nuc for that period and achieve a break in the brood cycle. 

Wayne


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

I was thinking in hours not days.


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

Here's my thought. Man has devised many ways to trap many different creatures, some methods work good others not so good. Does anyone see my point about trapping varroa outside of the brood chamber? Does anyone really grasp what I have proposed? Can anyone say this is a valid idea worth persuing or does everyone thing this is a waste of time.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Does anyone see my point about trapping varroa outside of the brood chamber?_ 

No, I don't. I'd consider that to be like trying to set a mousetrap inside a room with 50 cats. Different areas of a broodnest will have different concentrations of mites - we haven't even figured out why mites will congregate in certain areas of a broodnest while seemingly avoiding other identical areas....so why would you try to trap mites away from the areas they hang out at?

I think you would have better luck raising tons of pseudoscorpions to eat the mites.


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## concrete-bees (Jun 20, 2009)

Country boy - I ve been thinking about using false scorpions as a mite control for a long time - I have never heard anyone else even speak of it !!!!!

makes you wonder if there is a mite that can kill the Varroa !!! that would be the best method


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

Lets just get rid of the cats so the mice can thrive.


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

Mites will congregate in certain areas of the brood nest, that's a good starting point. Wouldn't you like to know why they do that.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

concrete-bees said:


> makes you wonder if there is a mite that can kill the Varroa !!! that would be the best method


Be careful what you wish for. Tropilaelaps clarae is just such a mite. It will win if both are in the same hive. I asked Diana Sammataro once if that couldn't be a defense against varroa. Tropilaelaps is a worse mite than varroa and would be an even bigger threat to our bees.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I think it's an interesting idea, one that maybe you will experiment with yourself? You may come up with something that will really help in reducing the treat of varroa in our hives.

Now i'm really going to start a discussion I guess. I keep silent alot lately, but maybe it's because I've been thinking. What I'm thinking of trapping varroa is that it is just going to be another crutch that keeps us fighting nature instead of working with it in a more flowing and natural way. A more flowing and natural way such as what has already been achieved by some people that post here on this forum. 

In nature, a parasite can not destroy the host. That's very logical huh? can't bite the hand that feeds you too hard huh? Let me also throw out another thought, just a thought mind you. What if it was to the varroa mite's advantage to have a strong host to feed off of? Hey? what about that? Maybe someone should work more with nature in creating a great strong bee that makes stong hives and stores excess honey for us to harvest, all because of the varroa? The varroa changes and the bees change too and the result just might be better than the bee we had before the varroa came on the scene. 

OK, I was just rambling, but hey, there are people who have done just that, or close to it. They have a bee that is a great bee if not because of, then at least even though of, having varroa mites present. (that's a really bad sentence structure there, someone fix it for me?) Some of them post on this forum and some are referred to by posters on this forum and some are unkown to the general public at large. 

But I'd also like to hear of your testing results with trapping varroa. I do think it would be a good contribution to beekeers in general everywhere and it would have a place in beekeeping if it shows good results. I just don't think it would be a cure-all and think we should keep our options open to further ideas and results that might be obtained using other processes or systems. I'm thinking again, but that if successful, it may be of the sort of success similar to dusting with powder sugar. It would require more trips to the beeyard with another set of toos needed to keep at hand. Another 'system' if you will, added on to basics of beekeeping.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Country boy - I ve been thinking about using false scorpions as a mite control for a long time - I have never heard anyone else even speak of it !_

Pseudoscorpions have been discussed on here before. Do a search and it will pull up a half dozen or so threads.

I know they will eat mites, but I don't know if they go for live mites or if they just scavenge the dead mites. I have seen them on the outside of my hives before (at first I thought it was a tiny spider on the lid.) but I have not seen them inside the hive...but I guess I have never been looking for them in the hive either. I would imagine the bees would likely try to run them out of the hive if the pseudoscorpions couldn't hide.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I was not aware of the studies done on what chemical compound attracts varroa.

Dr. Marion Ellis of UNL was working with some people in France who were doing experiments on coming up with an attractant and a trap for Varroa. He said it was promising, but that was several years ago, so maybe not that promising...


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks Mr. Bush for your reply. I knew I wasn't crazy.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Many people consider beekeepers to be quite a crazy bunch. Perhaps we are all just a little bit crazy together?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I remember being at ther BeeMasters course at SFU in 1994. Dr Mark Winston was working on such an idea, using pheromones to trap varroa. He thought he was a few years away from finding the pheromones and then a few more years to develop a commercial product. At the time he also had his hand out looking for research money from beekeepers. Nothing ever came from that work as far as any products are concerned. I think they identified some compounds that were attractive to varroa (I don't know if they were highly attractive or somewhat attractive) but there are quite a few hurdles between finding a compound that is attractive to varroa to having a product that you can stick in a hive and achieve effective varroa control. In the meantime Winston refocused his energies in another faculty at SFU, he longer dabbles in bees.

drice, if you think that you can find a product to trap varroa under a screen in a matter of hours without disrupting a hive (if that was a bad thing) good luck to you. What about the other ones under the capped brood? If icing sugar is working fine for you and your bees then I would encourage you to keep at it.

As far as trying to find such a product, unless you have lots of smarts or access to people who have lots of smarts, a well equipped laboratory, plenty of cash to invest with the possibility of no return on the investment, lots of time to invest, I would have to answer your question that you're wasting your time. 

Jean-Marc


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## concrete-bees (Jun 20, 2009)

I find Pseudoscorpions in the wild all the time - what i can do is set up on of my small mating nucs with mite infested bees - and put in a few dozen Pseudoscorpions and let them go at it for a few weeks - i can give them bees from a heavy infested hive - 

its worth it - really?? what would i lose ? ill keep you posted on my experiment- i can also put the Pseudoscorpions in a peti dish and place live Varroa in with them - see if they will eat them - i know they eat red mites and springtails - why not varroa?

anyhow ill get some tommorow and start on the experiment this week !!!!!

Thanks Country Boy -- got my wheels turning again !!!!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have seen Pseudoscorpions in my hives. Not a lot of them, but I have seen a few.


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

Is this pseudoscorpions serious or just another jab? Seriously.
I have never said im going to trap varroa, I've never said this was a cure-all. My thread was intended to find out if there had been any studies/research as to using brood pheremone to attract varroa, im going to stop using the word trap. There has been tons of research on how to kill varroa just maybe were looking the wrong way.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

drice: There is a certain amount of give and take on this forum, your going to get challenged when you start a thread that suggests a novel new approach to what has become a very old problem. Take it all with a little humor, don't forget, in this case, you did talk about attracting and trapping in your initial post, nothing to feel defensive about there. In any case I think all this discussion is healthy but it is important to remember that Varroa is the single biggest challenge to ever face this industry. Many, many very educated researchers and even more hard working creative beekeepers have been struggling with this pest for the past two decades and the best we have so far is simply learning different ways to manage and to coexist with it. Enter the discussion if you wish but don't be offended when you are challenged, particularly by someone who may have far more experience than you.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I'm not trying to jab or make fun. I'm sorry if I sounded that way. I serously think you might be onto something that may help in beekeeping. I do tests and try things with bees myself and sometimes it turns out great and sometimes not so good. But that's how I try to learn and verify what others have done for myself. I'm just researching and moving into a different direction right now myself, but if there was a varroa trap out that had good results then I might try it out myself to see how it worked in with what I want to acheive. But my over all direction is to try to move away from trappings and treatings in my own bees so it would be a stepping stone measure for me to try if it was available.

I do not know of anyone testing or researching into the area you are now interested in, but that's probably because it would be a side street to the path I'm going, so I've never researched it myself. But please don't let me deter you at all with what you are interested in. We are all contributing with what we do and share with others in forums such as this.


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> OK, no snarky remarks.
> 
> I haven't tried one of Ross's varroa traps. Have you? Do you know anyone who has? There was some work done in the labs with the idea. Nothing's ever come of it or been shown effective in the field. Just because Ross Conrad says it's so, doesn't mean it is. Sounded good so he included it, and it helps sell a lot of books...oops, is that too snarky? Lots of things Ross says sound good. Some things I find offensive. One of those is to con folks into believing he has _"Found The Way"._ If his varroa trap is working so well, why is he in the process of converting his 40 colony apiary to small cell. Another thing i find offensive is how he blames the commercials for all our woes...finger wagging, finger wagging. We're all in this together folks.
> 
> ...


soory you misunderstood me michael, no one on here is indorsing ross, we are just talking about the idea of using some kind of trap to catch varroa. he included alittle bit about his experiance with traps in his book thats why I brought him up. 

Im totaly for someone who has tryed it to say it didnt work for me because ............ I just get really frustrated with all the non constructive ney saying on these forums, We are all in this together so we need to figure out a sustainable way to keep bees.

RayMarler Right on!


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## concrete-bees (Jun 20, 2009)

no jab was intended with the scorpions - 
with this forum sometimes its more like a tree and can branch into different stuff - happens alot - just take the info you need and use it - 


Beekeeping is more then just keeping bees - Beekeeping is an on going experiment - to see what works, what doesnt and to try and make better bees and more honey - with less of a dollar - i think that once a beekeeper stops thinking of a better way ..... i think he has stopped keeping bees


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

hipbee said:


> he included alittle bit about his experiance with traps in his book thats why I brought him up.


..and if you bother reading what ross wrote about his trap, you will read that his protocol was to use a trap in the spring, replace with a cleaned/recharged trap mid season, and then treat for mites in the fall.

i daresay that there are any number of beekeepers in VT that don't use a varroa trap and treat their bees in the fall successfully.

i have a varroa trap that works just as well. it looks just like a paperclip (but it is very expensive, and you have to buy it from me). place it in the hive in the spring, replace it with a new one (equally expensive as the first) in mid summer, and then use conventional mite treatments in the fall.:scratch:

deknow


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

now i know how you went treatment free deknow, put me down for a 100 of those magic paperclips! as long as I can skip the conventional treatment in the fall.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

hipbee said:


> I dont even know what your on me for


Hipbee, I apologize for my silly remarks. Please realize...some of us have been doing this for decades. When someone comes along like the author you quote, and fills unsuspecting heads like yours with information that is incorrect and in fact bogus, and seemingly for the purpose of selling his book...well, personally, I can't bite my tongue for long. 

You can read the beekeeping journals starting in the 19th century...something I recommend. You know the same thing has been happening forever. Someone comes up with a silver bullet, that really doesn't exist. The ensuing debate is just like what's happening here on BS. Experienced beekeepers tried to inject their wisdom into that debate, and as now, not always with the greatest of tact. 
Mike


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

Oldtimer, can you elaborate on your varroa trap.


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

May I congratulate myself on starting the next silver bullet myth. Lol


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

drice said:


> May I congratulate myself on starting the next silver bullet myth. Lol


Well like most things, your idea is not new it's been around and researched for years, as others in the thread have mentioned going right back to even the second post in the thread.




drice said:


> Oldtimer, can you elaborate on your varroa trap.


Not in this thread, sorry.


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

Is there another thread about your trap. Or will you start one.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

No other thread.

Can't be bothered talking in depth about the trap now, the tone of this whole thing is wrong.

I'll just say it's nothing complex. It does not rely on chemicals, it confines the queen on two small custom combs which get rotated in and out over a 6 week period. But it's not 100% effective yet it has to be used along with some other techniques to achieve full chemical free control. I'm not sure it will ever be a viable option in a commercial setting. At this stage there are better ways, it's just something I'm playing with. I would not recommend it to a beginner.

Also I think it got lost on most people, but for those interested in using chemicals, the brood pheremone imitant was actually named earlier in the thread by Jack Grimshaw, it is Methyl Palmitate.


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## drice (Dec 13, 2010)

From what I could find methyl palmitate did not seem to be very effective, back to the drawing board.


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

It may be true that as we speak there currently is no "silver bullet", but as long as they keep appearing it means that someone is still working on a effective treatment which IMHO is a good sign. When there are no more bullets its time to give up.......


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