# Constant Superseding



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

If the colony has had a heavy varroa mite infestation this year I would suspect a heavy virus load is damaging the queens. If it was poor mating because of a shortage of drones all of the other queens you have had raised in your colonies would show the same problem. If it is the strain of bees, the queen's sisters would probably be superseding also.


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## MaydayMalone (Jan 19, 2012)

I had a couple of hives like that this season. Back in late July, one of the frames had at least 40 queen cells on it. They were all "hatched" when I noticed. Even the queens that I bought through a local beekeeper association were weak. They originated from Georgia. Not sure why.


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## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

AR Beekeeper said:


> If the colony has had a heavy varroa mite infestation this year I would suspect a heavy virus load is damaging the queens. If it was poor mating because of a shortage of drones all of the other queens you have had raised in your colonies would show the same problem. If it is the strain of bees, the queen's sisters would probably be superseding also.


Mites aren't the problem. The original queen was a Yugo and all others were daughters. I even cut cells from this hive and added to other hives. Those queens are doing fine. It seems for some reason this hive has never let a queen lay for more than a few days before superseding. It's late in the year and I'm tired of fighting these bees so I am combining them with a single body hive that was a late swarm. I was wondering if anyone else has had a hive like this and if they figured out why they were never satisfied with their queen?


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## zookeeper (Oct 21, 2009)

I have had a couple like this and never could figure out what caused it. Funny thing is they superceded all summer, but once fall set in, they stopped making cells and went through the winter with the final queen of the year. The next spring they acted normal, and now that I think of it, one of the queens lasted for two more summers after that. 

Just a thought on your combine.....do you think the bees from the supercedure hive might kill the queen of the hive you combine them with? I just wanted to bring this up because it seems like your hive is pretty set on making queen cells. I wonder if her fate would be any better than the queens they've already superceded?


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## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

zookeeper said:


> Just a thought on your combine.....do you think the bees from the supercedure hive might kill the queen of the hive you combine them with? I just wanted to bring this up because it seems like your hive is pretty set on making queen cells. I wonder if her fate would be any better than the queens they've already superceded?


That thought has crossed my mind. The hive I am combining them with is the stronger hive so I hope they will be the dominating force. I don't know if it will make a difference but this queen is established, and has been laying for several months. They were with black queens. Now they have a yellow queen. I don't know if that may make a difference, too.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

I would do a VERY slow combin. Double screen board. 
David


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## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

My-smokepole said:


> I would do a VERY slow combin. Double screen board.
> David


I do have a double screen between them. How long would you give them before removing the double screen?


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

Any thing I would answer would be a guess. But would leave at lease a week. With paper after. But if you have the weather I would go longer. 
David


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

One thought I have had on this is that a queenless colony develops an urge to produce a new queen. the simple introduction of a new queen is not necessarily enough to satisfy that urge.

If you think about it the answer to a queenless colony is often to give them a frame of brood. Giving them a queen that then produces that frame of brood could very well be not much more than doing the same thing. they got their brood. what do you think they are going to do with it now? I suspect it takes at times a it more than just adding a queen to settle the bees back out of that queen production mode.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Bill91143 said:


> Mites aren't the problem. The original queen was a Yugo and all others were daughters.


What is a "Yugo?" I like the virus explanation - or some other pathogen or poison that is persistent in the hive. I would not combine them. Probably wouldn't keep using the comb either. All just idle speculation though.

And I think you mean daughters of daughters of daughters...


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

I've read about some bees that reject a queen that is genetically different than themselves. I had supersedure problems while requeening Minnesota Hygenic bees. They were aggressive toward the new queen and made two queen cells from the only eggs she layed. There is a great variation of what is normal. As soon as you figure it out, something will be different. HTH


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## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

David LaFerney said:


> What is a "Yugo?" I like the virus explanation - or some other pathogen or poison that is persistent in the hive. I would not combine them. Probably wouldn't keep using the comb either. All just idle speculation though.
> 
> And I think you mean daughters of daughters of daughters...


A Yugo is a cross between Russian and Carniolan bees. Honey Bee Genetics breeds and sells them. 

The hive was all new wood last spring. 

I have 19 other hives in the same area. A few of them has superseded once this year, which I expect, but this hive supersedes as soon as the new queen starts laying. If there was a poison problem I would think it would affect the other hives, too.

The original queen was marked and I though they didn't like the marking, so I didn't mark the next one. Since then I would mark some and some I did not. Marking didn't seem to make a difference. 

As far as mites go I haven't found any in this hive, but they never keep a laying queen long enough to let mites establish a breeding cycle. It appears they have solved the mite problem. Unfortunately they aren't very good at reproduction, and their honey production leaves a lot to be desired.

I have already put them on top of another slow hive. I do have a double screen board between them and they have their own entrance. I will probably give them another week before I pull the screen board.

Obviously I meant that each queen was a daughter of the queen before her and not all daughters of the original queen. I was meaning I had not introduced any queens, and all queens were raised by them from their own stock. 

I think this hive of bees are just like some families I've seen, all screwed up and self destructive! :scratch:


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I agree with Daniel. It's due to not enough open (uncapped) brood. The queen(s) may be taking longer to start laying than the bees would like, so they are making emergency queen cells as soon as there are some eggs laid.

Adding a frame of open brood from another hive every week for a couple of weeks until the new queen starts getting going with laying will stop the supersedure.


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## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

MattDavey said:


> I agree with Daniel. It's due to not enough open (uncapped) brood. The queen(s) may be taking longer to start laying than the bees would like, so they are making emergency queen cells as soon as there are some eggs laid.
> 
> Adding a frame of open brood from another hive every week for a couple of weeks until the new queen starts getting going with laying will stop the supersedure.


You and Daniel are probably right. Unfortunately it is to late in the year to let them raise another queen, but for any future incidents like this I will probably take the approach you and Daniel suggest. I have another hive with a Yugo queen and they have done fantastic. So I'm not blaming it on the Yugos. They superseded the first queen two weeks after I split them and introduced her. Since then they have never stopped superseding.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Bill, One of the differences that seemed to be described. The bees are killing the queen after she has laid only a small amount of eggs. this would be in comparison to a colony that allows the queen to continue to lay even as they build queen cells to replace her. the brood build up woudl never have a chance to happen. That is how it fits together in my thinking anyway.


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## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> Bill, One of the differences that seemed to be described. The bees are killing the queen after she has laid only a small amount of eggs. this would be in comparison to a colony that allows the queen to continue to lay even as they build queen cells to replace her. the brood build up woudl never have a chance to happen. That is how it fits together in my thinking anyway.


I think you are right. It is like they have been without brood for so long that when the new queen starts to lay they kill her because they are blaming her for the lack of brood, and this has been the vicious cycle ever since I made this nuc (split) back in April.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Bill,
I had a similar situation in the spring/summer. They replaced the queen 3 or 4 times in a row until they ended up happy with her. Still not sure why. I had other hives in the area that had queens successfully mate.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I struggled with as many as 12 hives this past spring. I cannot even remember at this time how many of those killed queen after queen. It seems to me it was 3 or 4. and this instant killing of a queen due to being queenless for so long is exactly how it appeared to me. I eventually requeened at least two of them with the adding of brood method I described. And it worked.

This year was a nightmare when it came to queens. I now have 20 hives. built up from 5. but it took over 100 queens to get them going. I am an expert on how to get a queen killed.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Bill & Daniel-
I've talked before about introducing a new queen...so you are adding brood...how are you introducing the queens? You know I use a Laidlaw cage to introduce a queen.

After so much superceding, I'd just get an over-wintered nuc with a very hot, mated queen and newspaper-combine them while (as you did) adding brood. It seems some bees just won't get it going hard enough, you got to change bloodlines when it happens, or combine for Winter and split in the Spring.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Charlie, SO far we have been putting them in a JZ-BZ cage with a candy plug. We make sure they are not released for at least 24 hours. I never did get around to using the Laidlow cage mainly because the introductions came to an end just about that same time. I have materials here to make one next spring. I am not that fond of the small cage given I also understand the queen can suffer if she does not have enough room to move around.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> I am not that fond of the small cage given I also understand the queen can suffer if she does not have enough room to move around.


I saw that first hand - one of the replacement queens this spring obviously had been in the cage too long. Her body retained the curve of the cage for as long as she lived. It took her 2 weeks to start laying and then as soon as she laid a solid frame, she got superceded. I have no idea how long she had been caged/banked before I got her.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Sorry about that, Daniel. About that time my computer started misbehaving, then I had the charge cable stolen. I'll find one of the old threads I've posted before about the Laidlaw queen introduction cage and post it again here in a couple of days - I'm at the library and keep getting bumped off the net.

You can also use the search box and type in Laidlaw cage and ASCII drawing - the best thread should show up.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I found the thread with the ASCII drawing of the Laidlaw cage - it was titled "How to Keep a Queen Alive Ahead of hiving..." by Western Wilson on 09-07-2012 at 8:26 AM.

The book to read about it is Harry H. Laidlaw's Contemporary Queen Rearing, available through Dadant & Sons and through Wicwas Press. There are several photos of various queen intro cages in the chapter on Mating the Queen, but the good one is the 5" x 7" x 7/8" (inside dimension) model.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Kilo,

Your winter assignment, if you choose, is to learn how to post pictures so that we can FINALLY see this "Laidlaw cage" you have mentioned. I appreciate your efforts with the ASCII drawing, but it just doesn't work for me.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Roger, Astro, will comply. The camera has issues, but I will get back to Fry's and see about getting it operational, or just buy a dang iPhone. I even had the ww.photobucket account up and running. I do have a lot of unique equipment designs to share.

I love beekeeping, as it is fairly low-tech, or at least to say that the technology has become somewhat mature since Lorenzo Langstroth's days. I love high-tech, too, it just isn't as reliable as my table saw. Even the terminal I'm using today takes a whole ... of a lot longer than my laptop.:waiting: 

But, all the truly great threads have photo communication, so I'll do my best. Sorry it has been so long - I have a court case over some bees that were killed, I'm moving up near UC Davis for the bee program, and have been lecturing and removing bees lately, among other things. It'll get done, though.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

kilocharlie said:


> I'm moving up near UC Davis for the bee program,


Moving up to the respectable part of the state? You will join those that are only a couple of hours from me. I am hoping to make a tour sometime soon and meet a lot of people on the way.
If you are ever in Reno PM me I can meet you and give you some quick tutorials on posting pics etc.


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## BigGun (Oct 27, 2011)

Could the queens be killed by laying workers and the nurse bees just start anew from what eggs are laid instead of a supercedure?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I had laying workers attempt to rear a queen from an infertile eggs I had a total of 3 drones come from queen cells. If a hive has laying workers they will kill an introduced queen. not sure about if you introduce a virgin queen. At the vary least take care in introduction. I simply got to the point I would add frames of brood every few days for a week or more. then introduce a queen. that seemed to work the best.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Big Gun, I think I read that open (read uncapped) brood release pheremones that cause the laying workers' ovaries to shrink, lessening their unwanted laying activities. Michael Bush recommends one frame of eggs and brood per week for three weeks. 

Sometimes a laying worker hive requires drastic sounding action when the frames of brood over time do not work. The quickest solution is to shake the bees out of the hive boxes and put the equipment back in its original place and let the bees sort it out. Then, you can add a queen without interference from laying workers. HTH


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Lee I have heard the same. I also have seen several things that lead me to believe it is the bees in a colony accepting a new queen that actually do in the old queen. This causes me to think that if the conditions are right the introduction of the queen results in all the laying workers getting turned on. Not necessarily an easy thing to do since the bees will at first kill a strange queen if they believe they already have one.

At any rate I found the addition of brood over a week or more period of time does work.

Next most important lesson I learned was to give the new queen plenty of time to get started. I will now give the queen at least 3 weeks to mate and get enough eggs laid for me to find them. I think I ended up getting several newly mated queens killed last year due to thinking they had gotten lost and adding a new virgin.


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