# Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Send a sample of 100 bees off to "Beltsville" the USDA-ARS national bee research laboratory in Beltsville, Maryland.

Bee Research Laboratory
(301) 504-5143
10300 Baltimore Avenue
Bldg 306, Room 315 BARC-EAST
Beltsville, Maryland 20705

www.ars.usda.gov/northeast-area/bel...arch-laboratory/docs/bee-diagnostics-service/

They will have instructions about how to package and ship them. Include a brief letter explaining what you have described here. Some one there will probably reply to you with the best diagnosis they can, depending on how long your bees have decayed after dying. Take photos of all the combs to send them electronically if you can, or printed if you can't.

Don't be disheartened. Failures are part of learning to become a beekeeper. Learn and keep on pluggin'.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

I would also suggest scooping up a half cup of bees and washing them through a screen to see how many mites there are. No the swarm would not have made it.


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## Bee Clause (Jun 8, 2014)

kilocharlie said:


> Send a sample of 100 bees off to "Beltsville" the USDA-ARS national bee research laboratory in Beltsville, Maryland.
> 
> Bee Research Laboratory
> (301) 504-5143
> ...


Thanks. I will try to get up with them. Hopefully my top-bar hive at my other house makes it. They were still active last night.


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## Bee Clause (Jun 8, 2014)

Dave Burrup said:


> I would also suggest scooping up a half cup of bees and washing them through a screen to see how many mites there are. No the swarm would not have made it.


Out of the bunch I looked at there was varroa mites. About 1 in 20 bees had one on them. In the bottom of the hive I found more varroa. I'm sure that didn't help things at all. I'll have to look into varroa control if I am going to repopulate this hive again.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I'm betting it was mites. I've had a few hives that deal with the mites by attempting very late supercedure... never works out for them.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

kilocharlie said:


> Send a sample of 100 bees off to "Beltsville" the USDA-ARS national bee research laboratory in Beltsville, Maryland.
> 
> Bee Research Laboratory
> (301) 504-5143
> ...


Does it cost?


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## allniter (Aug 22, 2011)

BILL ---NO


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

You can see lots of bees in the fall that represent the peak numbers but they will be mostly older bees about to expire. If mites are preventing successful brood rearing by direct damage and harboring viruses the imminent die off of the summer bees can result in a crash of population in a very short time. It is an unrecoverable position once it goes into process. Guard duty and brood tending cease and not enough active bodies to cover remaining brood. Your last inspection was probably just prior to the spiraling down.

You did not mention anything about mite treatment method.

Here is a picture of one of my hives just after I pulled honey supers off at the end of last summer. Looks wonderful there, but almost all of these bees are dead now: the hive is wintering on bees that were raised after this point in time. The crucial fall period of raising mite free healthy bees that take the colony through winter, is something that new beekeepers often cannot really get their mind around.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Frank here explained it perfect once you know how the mites kill the hive the more luck you will have over wintering your bees. Kill them mites so they will have healthy bees going into winter.


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## Bee Clause (Jun 8, 2014)

crofter said:


> You can see lots of bees in the fall that represent the peak numbers but they will be mostly older bees about to expire. If mites are preventing successful brood rearing by direct damage and harboring viruses the imminent die off of the summer bees can result in a crash of population in a very short time. It is an unrecoverable position once it goes into process. Guard duty and brood tending cease and not enough active bodies to cover remaining brood. Your last inspection was probably just prior to the spiraling down.
> 
> You did not mention anything about mite treatment method.
> 
> Here is a picture of one of my hives just after I pulled honey supers off at the end of last summer. Looks wonderful there, but almost all of these bees are dead now: the hive is wintering on bees that were raised after this point in time. The crucial fall period of raising mite free healthy bees that take the colony through winter, is something that new beekeepers often cannot really get their mind around.


Thanks for the reply. If the bees died off in mass I would expect to see bodies everywhere. There was no sign of them. There was only about 10-20 on the ground by the entrance this last weekend, about what I would expect in the winter, at least compared to what I see from my top bar hive at my other house. That Also during the time I noticed the bees were gone, over half of the stored honey vanished, I should have mentioned that. As far as mite control I have considered many options, everything from powdered sugar to an aluminum plate with a diesel glow pug in it hooked to a car battery to vaporize oxalic acid that kills mites. Which I am also told will kill uncapped brood, which I had in my autopsy. My top bar hive on the other hand was completely brood free in december when I did my last check on them. It was 84 deg that day. Every time I inspect my hives I take several extremely high resolution images to study later so I don't keep the hive all apart. I try not to disturb them as much as possible. I would post them for you but they are way too big. Going back though some of the images I have the only time I saw mites was my very last inspection in november on a very warm day here in NC. In the images you can see 1 mite per 50-60 bees, I'd love to see none, but here's to wishful thinking. But I am told by another bee person that I sent my pics to the mite population was not bad. Just keep an eye on them. Conflicting information is so frustrating...


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Bee Clause>> most of the mites are in with the capped brood, not on the bees. if you see 1 mite per 50 bees in a photo and without using a monitoring technique the mite population IS bad.
The older bees mentioned in a response above have been leaving to die for a long while now, flying off or crawling off never to return. There will be no pile of them.
The population of the hive dwindles as the old bees die off and no new bees are healthy enough to replace them. The first or second cold snap does in the remaining bees as they can't regulate the cluster temperature, that is what you see remaining in the hive.
Maybe this will help:
http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/varroa_mite.htm


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Aging bees fly away to die; not in the hive unless poisoned. 

It sounds like you only _considered_ various mite treatments. Mites dont commonly ride around on the backs of mites; they slip between the sternites on the bottom of the abdomens. When you can actually see them on bees they are just about out of hand. The missing honey would be consitent with a weakening colony being unable to prevent robbing. 

Some of the advice you are getting seems to be toward minimizing the importance of mites. Maybe people are telling you what you appear to be wanting to hear. Denial in connection with mites is very common but not very effective.

Get the tests done and then use the results to sort out what was good advice and what was not.


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## Bee Clause (Jun 8, 2014)

In one week over half the population and fair amount of honey vanishes and the best explanation is robbing, mites and all of the old bees flying off to die... at once? I may be inexperienced, but I'm not stupid. I have another hive that had worse mite infestation and survived. I used this (http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/htm-files/powder-sugar.html) test for them but found it too harsh. But I guess denial is the other option.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Most of us have had hives that died out just like yours did. No one is making this stuff up.
Thousands upon thousands of hives have died out the same way this fall. 
Believe what you'd like. Good luck going forward.


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## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

Bee Clause said:


> In one week over half the population and fair amount of honey vanishes and the best explanation is robbing, mites and all of the old bees flying off to die... at once? I may be inexperienced, but I'm not stupid. I have another hive that had worse mite infestation and survived. I used this (http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/htm-files/powder-sugar.html) test for them but found it too harsh. But I guess denial is the other option.


1 mite on every 20 bees that you can see, more on the bottom of the hive and you didn't treat... hive most likely died from mites. If you are not going to test or treat, you need to expect a lot of late fall / early winter die outs.


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## Bee Clause (Jun 8, 2014)

Apparently reading and comprehending is difficult. I checked nearly every dead bee I pulled out of the hive. Out of the 265 bees. I looked at there was 12 that had mites. About 1 in 20. After opening one section of brood, none had mites. There was plenty of pollen and honey. Must be mites then.


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## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

You have an interesting way of showing your appreciation for people taking time to respond to your request for help.

You don't treat and don't monitor your mite load. Seems to me we all know just as much about your mite problem as you do. Good luck keeping your head in the sand... but if you don't even try to monitor mites, don't berate people who do and see their hives die exactly the same way yours is going to.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

This time of year, it's not the mites that are the problem, it's all the virus they transmitted when the fall bees were being made. I know it doesn't sound plausible, but I've seen plenty of hives go from double deeps down to 2-3 frames of bees in a blink, especially when the first cold snap hits. Heck, sometimes the hive doesn't have a single bee alive or dead left. Looking at the brood that's left can sometimes give you a clue but it's not definitive to say the least. If you had a warm fall, perhaps they swarmed but that still doesn't explain why all the remaining bees died either, even queenless hives with a fair amount of bees should come through winter and your's had a laying queen.


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## Bee Clause (Jun 8, 2014)

Again reading and comprehending is difficult. I posted how I measured them in another hive. Putting 50 or so bees in a Mason Jar full of powdered sugar and shaking them. They have mites as well. Guess what. They are doing just fine. But that's unimportant. 

It's OK. Its my fault. I was warned about going to sites like this. They all just repeat the same thing. 
Hive abscond? Mites
Tree fell on your hive? Mites
Bear bust open your hive and eat every thing. Must be mites. 
You all have yourselves a good night.


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## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

Bee Clause said:


> Again reading and comprehending is difficult. I posted how I measured them in another hive. Putting 50 or so bees in a Mason Jar full of powdered sugar and shaking them. They have mites as well. Guess what. They are doing just fine. But that's unimportant.
> 
> It's OK. Its my fault. I was warned about going to sites like this. They all just repeat the same thing.
> Hive abscond? Mites
> ...


I feel bad for your bees


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## Bee Clause (Jun 8, 2014)

JRG13 that does make sense. We had an extremely warm fall, usually do in my part of the world. I was wearing a t-shirt in parts of December. This wasn't the only hive I had that split. But never one this late.


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## Bee Clause (Jun 8, 2014)

Norcalkyle said:


> I feel bad for your bees


Well, don't you worry yourself about it. And I'll be sure to never post unusual circumstances here again.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Bee Clause,
I´m in your situation and my Deadouts look different in every way. Two of them I believe to be queen failures,matings were bad 2016. The brood nests were completely filled with honey, the bees absconded and probably drifted into other hives.
Two froze. Comparing this two I´m sure the one old queen, which was from "resistant" stock, had the highest mite load but still would have survived without my stupid management. The dead bees just look different.The other hive was the strongest before wintering but was a varroa crash. What I saw was mite frass in cells there, some capped cells with mite infested pupae ( I pulled them out and looked) dead bees with dead mites on them on the floor and mites on the floor board.
Not such picture with the other hive.
The other three I´m not sure about. No brood, +- 50 bees, dead queen, no mite frass, not many dead mites.
Could be what is called CCD, spraying in fall, a winter coming too suddenly this year and not enough winter bees bred, virus ( but no dead bees in front of the hive ( no DWV)) load or just my fault.

Learning from this: I will monitor the mite situation more to exclude false estimations, I will change some managements, after a warm winter I will split more to keep mite reproduction at bay, I will split differently, I will breed from the best, I will check again late fall and combine those with failing queens, and much more.

There are even professional beekeepers in my area who have 40% losses and admit not to know why. One apiary started beekeeping 1931 and still they do not know what happened. They treat. They know about varroa since many years.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

As you see here there are many kind people advising me and I´m grateful for that.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...icle-of-a-beekeeper-from-South-Germany/page16
I listen to them and learn.
But in the end you must make your own experiences and adapt your beekeeping to what you find at your location.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Bee Clause said:


> Then I remembered in late September I did my last inspection of the hive and noticed a dramatic drop in the hive population, at first I thought at first they were out foraging. I now believe the hive may have split. * Some advice from a well seasoned beekeeper would be appreciated. *



Last visit in September...
a dramatic drop in hive population...

JRG13 gave the only reasonable answer a well seasoned beekeeper (myself 40 seasons ) can give: "I'm betting it was mites. I've had a few hives that deal with the mites by attempting very late supercedure... never works out for them. " Crofter and Clyderoad helped you well too.

I agree. But you surely want even more seasoned ideas. Varroa or Acarapis, believe it or not, is the main reason, orther difficulties come on top.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Juhani,
I believe he absconded. Delete account.

The experienced beekeepers are probably right.

But it must be allowed to be a sceptic as a newbie, too. It must be allowed to be inconvenient.


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## crozinbee (Feb 21, 2016)

Try not to take offense and just take away what you need to help your bee's. I personally have had hives die in the same fashion. Food all around them, froze because the cluster was too small. Yep dam mites! If you turn your comb side ways and see little white particles, there was definitely a mite problem. If you have bee's, you have mites. Most people who don't treat, that I know, do brood breaks during the summer to lessen the mite population. I personally have had good luck using Oxalic acid vapor. I personally think mites are the number one offender and once you get past that hurdle you will have better success.


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## rwmccor (Feb 29, 2012)

looks like he came here with a chip on his wing, I'am new to bee's this year.
I came to this forum to learn how not to fail and have learned a lot.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>They all just repeat the same thing. 
>Hive abscond? Mites
>Tree fell on your hive? Mites
>Bear bust open your hive and eat every thing. Must be mites. 

Yep. Must be mite...


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

rwmccor said:


> looks like he came here with a chip on his wing, I'am new to bee's this year.
> I came to this forum to learn how not to fail and have learned a lot.


Well good for you sometimes we get personality conflicts but if we really want to learn we can't take it personal.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Surely not mites. Start again next year. Manage them the same way. I am sure your result will be different.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> >They all just repeat the same thing.
> >Hive abscond? Mites
> >Tree fell on your hive? Mites
> >Bear bust open your hive and eat every thing. Must be mites.
> ...


Repeating a straw man argument doesn't make you right.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> Yep. Must be mite...


Or...if bees are on small cell....must be anything but mites.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> >They all just repeat the same thing.
> >Hive abscond? Mites
> >Tree fell on your hive? Mites
> >Bear bust open your hive and eat every thing. Must be mites.
> ...


What say you MBush with your 42 years of experience?
Certainly more than a tongue in cheek one liner.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

You describe a classic winter die off. I've seen it happen many times. Most likely mites. Like others have said control mites and you'll see much less of this.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

Surely it can't be mites. If the samples you send to Beltsville don't show any infections, the problem must be global warming. At least, that's what I learned in college.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Repeating a straw man argument doesn't make you right.

I certainly did not perceive it as a "straw man" at all. It was humorous sarcastic hyperbole by the OP aimed at pointing out that people don't seem to bother to look for evidence, they just blame the mites without looking for evidence. I thought his sarcasm was entertaining and made that point. It certainly did not come across as a specific point of a debate.

>What say you MBush with your 42 years of experience?
>Certainly more than a tongue in cheek one liner.

Diagnosing losses from afar is always difficult even if you have a lot of data and pictures. Being there and seeing it first hand helps a lot. I try not to diagnose by long distance. Certainly mites should always be considered as a possible cause of any loss and evidence of too many mites should be looked for. 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#Why did my bees die?


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I thought the thread would be about harsher than normal winters weeding out the substandard wintering bees.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

lharder said:


> I thought the thread would be about harsher than normal winters weeding out the substandard wintering bees.


No, it's about mites. It's always about mites.

Too many mites = too small cluster = frozen bees in winter

Happened to me this year too. Textbook example of how mites can destroy your colony.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

lharder said:


> I thought the thread would be about harsher than normal winters weeding out the substandard wintering bees.


That's the twist one reads in the special rules forum, followed with page after page of chimera.


MBush>> very PC.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> MBush>> very PC.


His words are always meticulously calculated.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I think MB's first post was taken out of context and he was called out wrongfully. I thought it was pretty funny when I first read it. I need to keep that Ancient Aliens guy's meme on hand, just change the word aliens to mites. Although I don't have MB's experience by far, I've seen a fair share of hives mite out and this description fits to a "T". That being said, I like to see pictures of the fall brood patterns as well, but when strong hives crash in fall, then really crash during the first cold snap it was definitely Aliens harvesting your bees for interplanetary Apiary rights bragging. Heck, maybe their almonds trees are about to bloom as well and they need to fill their contracts. 

To MB's point, I think he was saying it was funny that the OP thinks we're all a bunch of liars cuz we jump right on the mites bandwagon with no proof, but yet he knows it twasn't the mites using the exact same principle's of deduction.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Mites-mites-mites - oh what a pain.

I am a beginner beekeeper and didn't take then seriously myself. Then my bees became defensive and unreasonable :scratch:
I heard about treating, but didn't have any particular time schedule, the only thing I knew that they have to be treated after very hot and before it gets too cold and most recommended I found is MAQS.
Luckily, I was introduced to OAD method, o I treated my bees with it and got a good amount of drops after 1st treatment.
2nd treatment (after 2-3 weeks) gave me a little less mites. 3rd treatment I did in the beginning of December - got much more, I would assume because of clustered bees. So far my bees are doing ok.

In one of the posts it was mentioned that 1 out of every 20 bees had mite - that could be not so true, most of the mites are on "healthy" bees if not say more, on young larvae. So I find that treating in any case will not heart.
Most of the times you can't see a mite at all, but I am sure they are there.

The only thing what bothers me is, when bees are getting treated, depends on the treatment, you contaminate your hive and your honey along with it 

What is the best to do ???


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Artur, MAQS does not contaminate the hive or the honey. The formic acid evaporates over a couple of days and is gone. It is also a naturally occurring chemical found in honey (in very small amounts) and is one of the lovely chemicals that makes nettles sting. OA does not contaminate hives or honey either and is also naturally found in honey and is what makes rhubarb bitter and is also found in spinach in large amounts.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Michael Bush we expect a better answer than that his first post is full of :scratch::kn: if you watch a hive die of mites you know how it happens if they don't take advice it's his money to waste.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

JRG13 said:


> I think MB's first post was taken out of context and he was called out wrongfully.


If it takes two paragraphs to explain the 'humor'....it probably didn't exist....in my opinion.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

beemandan said:


> If it takes two paragraphs to explain the 'humor'....it probably didn't exist....in my opinion.


You want humor? here is the humor:

The beekeeper has 7 problems and all 7 are about mites


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## appalachianoutdoors (May 16, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> >They all just repeat the same thing.
> >Hive abscond? Mites
> >Tree fell on your hive? Mites
> >Bear bust open your hive and eat every thing. Must be mites.
> ...


 Reading into it maybe, but from the emoji face, I took this to be a bit of humor. This did not come across as long distance diagnosing. It someone post a problem on a forum, it is expected to get a range of solutions / answers back. Consider them all, thank the others for the effort to read and reply and move on. I'm in the medical field and I am forever training new people to tell me the symptoms, not the diagnosis when presenting us with a new patient. Tunnel vision problem solving in not good for the person with the problem nor the person helping to solve it. Hopefully Bee Clause will rejoin the forum and enjoy a more satisfying beekeeper year this year.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It is sad that this story has to play out so many times, year after year. Why is it so popular to try to beat the odds of colony survival without verifying survivable mite loads?

Yes I know there are a few notable exceptions but tell me truly what the mathematical odds truly are, percentage wise, across the whole beekeeping world. People who make a living gambling sure dont put their money down on those kind of odds!

It is one thing to make individual choices to do so from a position of knowledge, but I think it positively _sucks_ to encourage an unknowing neophyte to jump into that game.

That is my opinion.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I agree with you crofter... people sign me up for these bee groups on Facebook now, and people act very incredulous when you tell them their untreated hives probably died or are dying of mites as they describe previously healthy hives dwindling in fall with just the queen and a few bees left but plenty of stores.... Their only argument is that they're treatment free and this somehow excludes their bees from dying of mites... I'll admit it too, I jump on that mite bandwagon every chance I get, heck I probably champion the cause, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, but it's more to prove a point or to try to open some minds.... if you don't monitor for mites or don't know what you're looking at when PMS is staring you in the face, you got some learning to do and don't just say you're treatment free like that makes you part of some elite club higher than the rest of us beekeepers and excludes mites of being even a scant possibility of why your bees died or are collapsing in the fall....


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Here's another...from today. It is sad and frustrating to me. I don't have any problem with folks going the tf route but.... heaven help me....please do so with open eyes.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?333113-Winter-Losses&p=1501899#post1501899


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

clyderoad said:


> That's the twist one reads in the special rules forum, followed with page after page of chimera.


is that how you explain it to your package customers when they ask you if the bees you are selling them are mite resistant clyde? who's twisting what here?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> is that how you explain it to your package customers when they ask you if the bees you are selling them are mite resistant clyde? who's twisting what here?


I don't sell packages.
If someone asks me if my bees are mite resistant I tell them no.
If they tell me they are looking for mite resistant bees I tell them good luck with that.
If they ask for hardy bees that are calm and good honey producers I tell them they came to the right place.
No chimera here.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> If they ask for hardy *bees that are calm *and good honey producers I tell them they came to the right place.


Here is more humor - to keep your bees calm, smoke them with marijuana :lpf:


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

clyderoad said:


> If they tell me they are looking for mite resistant bees I tell them good luck with that.


and do you follow that with 'and if you happen to read about folks having success with them on an internet forum you can dismiss those reports as fairy tales promulgated by folks who believe in unicorns'?

that's what you appear to imply given the meanings of 'twist' and 'chimera'.

it sounds to me like your growing tired of having to address the issue with your customers and resorting to defending your product by bad mouthing the reports like those in the special rules forum.

there are no rules preventing the posting of pejorative comments here on the main forum nor with the making of rebuttals to them. surely you didn't think i was going to let that one stand or did you?


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Another suggestion might be, if you don't want to believe in unicorns, stop reading about them.


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## charmd2 (May 25, 2008)

I would almost take the complete disbelief of mites over the arguing I got from the local treatment free guru after half her hives died this fall. Classic mite collapse. Mite frass, deformed wing virus, etc, 

November collapse after first frost. She swore uo and down it was pesticides. Excuse me? Who in central Missouri is using pesticides in November? Nothing is growing. 

Couldn't be mites. Not possible. She was using VSH mite biter queens. I gave up, she hadn't done a mite count ever, and is still preaching up and down to anyone who will listen requeening is all you keed for healthy hives. No efffort involved.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

the op appears to have his mind made up prior to soliciting input from more experienced folks on the forum and in turn didn't like the responses.

'what a fool believes he sees no wise man has the power to reason away' 

the doobie brothers


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> and do you follow that with 'and if you happen to read about folks having success with them on an internet forum you can dismiss those reports as fairy tales promulgated by folks who believe in unicorns'?
> 
> that's what you appear to imply given the meanings of 'twist' and 'chimera'.
> 
> ...


I do not think of you or consider your approval before posting.  
It is interesting to me how my post resonated with you though.

There is a term used for the rest of your response, it's straw man.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

touche clyde. it's interesting to me as well how you continue to characterize the progress that many are reporting here as chimera. the only other contributor i see doing that these days is also a bee supplier who expresses how annoyed he is having to explain away to his customers why the traits they are interested in don't exist.

straw man? ok. just my best guess since you don't give us any other reason for the negative criticism. :scratch:


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

squarepeg said:


> touche clyde. it's interesting to me as well how you continue to characterize the progress that many are reporting here as chimera. the only other contributor i see doing that these days is also a bee supplier who expresses how annoyed he is having to explain away to his customers why the traits they are interested in don't exist.


At least they may not exist in HIS bees. Some times it's hard to believe something exists if one hasn't seen it for oneself.


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## birddog (May 10, 2016)

grantsbees said:


> At least they may not exist in HIS bees. Some times it's hard to believe something exists if one hasn't seen it for oneself.


 ,,,,,,,,, be thay red legs , ankel biters , VSH , or any other genitics. There is yet to be a silver bullet. All bs aside if there was everyone would be buying them,,, period. that said
Anyone who is honest with themselves knows it is a combination of IPMs and genetics that permit survival of tf bees ,,x i will also add there are probaly also some that have achieved full eradication and have not suffered reinfection,,, all that considerd,,, when a bee seller gets a phone call most people asking about bees beeing mite proof,,,,,,, (mythical silver bullet) are or would be first timers new people, who got some dulusional ideals of easy beekeeping,,, so suggesting to these coustomers that said silver bullet dose not exist. Is the best service possible,,,,, . After all it is true as it applys to many of these callers,,,,,, experanced beeks already know what thay want and where to look


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

birddog said:


> All bs aside if there was everyone would be buying them


I think you are a bit over simplifying this. There is no "silver bullet" but there are genetics out there that are more mite "resistant" than others. Not mite "proof"

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/choosing-your-troops-breeding-mite-fighting-bees/

There is plenty of evidence to support this. So if what you say is true that if there were a better adapted breed for resisting mite infestation that "everyone" would go buy them. Well, there are... and not everyone is. IMHO it's the devil you know.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

birddog said:


> when a bee seller gets a phone call most people asking about bees beeing mite proof,,,,,,, (mythical silver bullet) are or would be first timers new people, who got some dulusional ideals of easy beekeeping,,, so suggesting to these coustomers that said silver bullet dose not exist. Is the best service possible,,,,, .


So basically instead of guiding these "inexperienced" people to an abundance of helpful resources about choosing TF or Not, you're telling these people "run along kid, you'll never get to play with the big boys. Now scram!"

That's just swell.

P.S. something is wrong with your keyboard


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Here's the other angle though, on advertising your bees.... I can say I have VSH Mite Biter Russians, but is that what I really have? I've had this discussion with a local commercial beek, and on the point of using those terms to help sell or make your bees more noticeable, he simply asked me... "do I advertise my bees as being resistant?" The short answer is no, even if he had some traits, his point was, if he cannot guarantee every single queen meets the traits as advertised, there's no point in advertising them as such. Also his point was if people want a specific type of bee, he'll let someone else deal with their disappointment when they don't live up to their high expectations.

On the point of a lot of new TF beeks ignoring mite issues etc.. I don't mean to lump them into a TF bashing incident, it's just easy to single them out I guess. I think the main question is, why is this misconception in reasoning being propagated and by who. I know MB would be the first person to tell them their hive died of mites if in fact that was the case and he was diagnosing it with them. I'd like to hear from some of these people who started these posts, what is their reasoning behind excluding the possibility that mites killed their hives simply because they're adhering to the philosophy of being treatment free when most hard tangible evidence would most likely lead to the conclusion that if you do ignore your mites, it's probably the most likely cause that a hive dies.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

JRG13 said:


> Here's the other angle though, on advertising your bees.... I can say I have VSH Mite Biter Russians, but is that what I really have? I've had this discussion with a local commercial beek, and on the point of using those terms to help sell or make your bees more noticeable, he simply asked me... "do I advertise my bees as being resistant?" The short answer is no, even if he had some traits, his point was, if he cannot guarantee every single queen meets the traits as advertised, there's no point in advertising them as such. Also his point was if people want a specific type of bee, he'll let someone else deal with their disappointment when they don't live up to their high expectations.


Can you advertise selling packages with a guaranteed "good queen"? The short answer is "no". You can't guarantee anything once they leave the supplier. So, MY point is why not educate your customers. If you care about the beekeeping community and want to keep it going with young people carrying the torch, help them out. Otherwise all the cranky old beeks will be leaving the young curious beeks hanging out to dry when they have so much potential.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I get your point on educating them grantsbees, but sometimes time is short and you know some people get fixated on a notion and you aren't going to change it. Easier to not waste your time and defer them to someone who will sell them what they want to hear.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

JRG13 said:


> Easier to not waste your time and defer them to someone who will sell them what they want to hear.


Funny how this is used to justify someone's point which was, in essence, saying they practice something that is not "easy". Sad to hear they are taking the "easy" way out of their phone calls where potential customers are looking for help.

Never assume the people calling for mite-free bees are not open to learning exactly what that means and what the alternatives are.

I'm sorry but this subject strikes a nerve with me. My first experience with a supplier was dealing with an owner who came off as very cold and dismissive. He wouldn't even tell you what state he got his bees from. Ironically, this guy runs a "Beekeeping Academy". pfft.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

JRG13 said:


> <Snip> Also his point was if people want a specific type of bee, he'll let someone else deal with their disappointment when they don't live up to their high expectations.<Snip>


I feel strongly enough about this that when I sense someone is jumping in on a faith based treatment free endeavor, then I will not sell to them. I have heard people bad mouthing others over bees they bought and allowed to die, but will admit no personal responsibility. I am just not going to get involved with them. 

Trying to change a persons faith based conviction is not very rewarding.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Crofter, I will have to agree with your argument to not sell to someone if they will assume no personal responsibility. However, from a business point of view, it is also a good idea not to sell to them. I guided a person in my area to a very reputable package dealer a couple of years ago. This person (the buyer) refused to treat in spite of my urging them to do so on numerous occasions. After their bees died for the second year in a row, they went online badmouthing the seller about the horrible quality of the bees they were sold. I have no doubt the seller lost business because of it. Experienced beekeepers know it was not the sellers fault. New beekeepers, the ones who would be buying the packages, would believe it to be true.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

dudelt said:


> Crofter, I will have to agree with your argument to not sell to someone if they will assume no personal responsibility. However, from a business point of view, it is also a good idea not to sell to them. I guided a person in my area to a very reputable package dealer a couple of years ago. This person (the buyer) refused to treat in spite of my urging them to do so on numerous occasions. After their bees died for the second year in a row, they went online badmouthing the seller about the horrible quality of the bees they were sold. I have no doubt the seller lost business because of it. Experienced beekeepers know it was not the sellers fault. New beekeepers, the ones who would be buying the packages, would believe it to be true.


No bees for YOU! (Seinfeld reference)


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

crofter said:


> I feel strongly enough about this that when I sense someone is jumping in on a faith based treatment free endeavor, then I will not sell to them. I have heard people bad mouthing others over bees they bought and allowed to die, but will admit no personal responsibility. I am just not going to get involved with them.
> 
> *Trying to change a persons faith based conviction is not very rewarding.*


It appears to me to be much like trying to convince a Christian Fundamentalist to turn atheist.

This thread seems to have gone a little sideways. The OP asks for


> "Some advice from a well seasoned beekeeper..."


, and based on his posting history, description and admission that he just "considered" treatments, the most likely answer is mites...but he doesn't like that answer, and gets snarky about "must be mites" and says


> It's OK. Its my fault. *I was warned about going to sites like this.* They all just repeat the same thing.


Well, shoot, mites are a problem for most of us and we know it, but he has fallen victim to some cult-like thinking/advice and refuses to believe it. One way or another, you have to take the existence of mites into account and deal with it...whether that's treating, or making increase faster than your hives crash, or spending every minute of the day picking them off with tweezers. Mites are here and they aren't likely to go away any time in the near future.

When people talk to me about bees, if they seem to be stuck on the TF bandwagon I'm probably going to cut the conversation short. I just don't have the patience anymore.


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## birddog (May 10, 2016)

grantsbees said:


> So basically instead of guiding these "inexperienced" people to an abundance of helpful resources about choosing TF or Not, you're telling these people "run along kid, you'll never get to play with the big boys. Now scram!"
> 
> That's just swell.
> 
> P.S. something is wrong with your keyboard


And there in lies the issue guiding inexperienced. Many on the tf wagon will encourage said inexperienced beginners to jump in feet first resulting in failure. Often times preachers are so busy spreading there message thay fail to observe there audience, you know the ones who cant tell the difference between a virgin queen and a drone. It is my opinion educating that audience should point out the additional challenges of tf and encourage learning basics first before jumping in feet first into more advanced methods , any yes as im shure there's some streight shooters in the crowd. However the number of deluded beginners suggests not nearly enough and thats where the silver bullet bees delusions comes from, its not coming from the pro treatment crowd 
Example.13 new beeks for 16 in our association 11 tf. 2 pro
Of 11 tf all were done by end of july even the 1 with a successful tf mentor of 2 pro 2 remaning as of end November 1 will fail this winter im sure,,, beeing fair one could say just as with pro treatment 50% are destin to fail however that still leaves a 100% failure rate among 1st time keepers dulusional about better bees and tf. So my point is this i dont have any *****es with tf or you even keeping your tf bees next to mine,vsh crosses by the way. My ***** is the falure among the tf crowd to disclose the full truth. Seems peoplt are all too happy to share how great there genitics are and how sucessfull there genetics are and how wonderfull tf is however rarley do we see much about the down sides and or how tf is a handycap to most beginners who will have a difficult task learning to keep bees while dealing with mites. And again these people aren't getting the idea of great genitcs and a screend bottem board and your golden from the pro crowd. Thats just a fact


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Artur_M said:


> You want humor? here is the humor:
> 
> The beekeeper has 7 problems and all 7 are about mites


I don't care who you are now that's funny!


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## cpekarek (Jan 5, 2017)

I lost a hive after a bout of -15° F weather. Several clusters of bees located on different frames. 2"of dead bees on the bottom board. They had plenty of stores in 2 deep boxes. I treated for mites with OA vapor 2 months prior. My other 3 hives look healthy. It would seem Tracheal Mites may be the culprit?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

cpekarek said:


> It would seem Tracheal Mites may be the culprit?


Welcome.
What would make you suspect tracheal mites?
-15F is pretty cold.....
OAV may or may not be an effective treatment depending on when and how it is applied.


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## cpekarek (Jan 5, 2017)

beemandan said:


> Welcome.
> What would make you suspect tracheal mites?
> -15F is pretty cold.....
> OAV may or may not be an effective treatment depending on when and how it is applied.


Tracheal mites was just a guess. The OA treatment seemed to be effective. I tested my 4 hives twice after treatment using a wash. That die-out had no varroa mites on one test and 1 mite on the second test. The hive had an estimates 30,000+ bees. My hives are protected from the winds and moisture wasn't evident in the hive. There was 50+ pounds of honey and pollen in the hive when the hive was lost. The bees that were still on the frames were in 6 or 7 separate clusters in the hive. I read somewhere that separate winter clusters may indicate tracheal mites. I'm a 1st timer, so any insight you can give is appreciated.

Chris


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

cpekarek said:


> I'm a 1st timer, so any insight you can give is appreciated.
> 
> Chris


First....you treated for varroa in October/November in IL? Very late to be effective. Although it may knock down a lot of mites, the damage had already been done. The winter bees....bees that must be the most durable.....had already been parasitized. As a result you probably went into winter with sickly/weakened bees.
If, going forward you choose to use oav as your primary mite control you might reexamine the timing and repetition cycles to get the best results.

Second....in my experience multiple, separate winter clusters may indicate queen issues. Queen pheromones along with brood pheromones are the glue that draws the bees together.

Good luck.


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## cpekarek (Jan 5, 2017)

We were in the mid to upper 60°'s into the 1st week of November. I treated in mid-October with OA. Next year I guess I will treat earlier. Thanks


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

cpekarek said:


> We were in the mid to upper 60°'s into the 1st week of November. I treated in mid-October with OA. Next year I guess I will treat earlier. Thanks


Timing for the main knock down should be sometime 3rd or 4th week of August, when pushed to Labor Day that typically seems a little bit late. Then cleanup treatment when they're broodless (I try to do it around Christmas).

Just chiming in because you're basically the same latitude as me, but east. So our timing is likely relatively similar.


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## GerrieRPh (Mar 10, 2015)

kilocharlie said:


> Send a sample of 100 bees off to "Beltsville" the USDA-ARS national bee research laboratory in Beltsville, Maryland.
> 
> Bee Research Laboratory
> (301) 504-5143
> ...


The Bee Research Lab link doesnt work. Does someone have an updated one?

And as someone who started with 2 hives last year, went into fall with 7, lost 3 = 2 my fault + 1 you'all just helped me figure out what I did wrong. I appreciate everyones constructive info!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

try this one:

https://www.ars.usda.gov/northeast-...aboratory/docs/bee-disease-diagnosis-service/


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jwcarlson said:


> Just chiming in because you're basically the same latitude as me, but east. So our timing is likely relatively similar.


I'm glad for the chime in. Much better for someone who is closer climate wise than for me to speculate.


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