# Olivarez bees



## beeup (Apr 10, 2010)

I'm about to purchase 10 Italian packages from these guy and I need some advise about my decision. I live in southeast MI so we have long winters. Im doing some small scale honey production, I'd like some opinions on using Italians up north and there overwintering ability. I can adjust my order for carni's if there better suited for my neck of the woods. Also been thinking about getting at lest 1 package of minn hygenic to breed some queens maybe mid summer to replace the Italians. Am I making this to hard or could this be a good plan going into winter.


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## Capricorn (Apr 20, 2009)

Carni's are supposed to be more frugal during the winter. I've kept Italians for the last few years, but am going to try some carni stock this year.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

We have a large, local beekeeper in SE Missouri that orders several hundred queens from Olivarez every year. He thinks they make great honey producers and over-winter here just fine.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I bought 10 packages of Italians from Olivarez in spring 2010, not a one of them is alive today, all were dead outs by the time December rolled in. I think the commercial Italian stock is weak nowadays, they can't make the northern winters, especially this one here in Michigan. Another thing Italians do that hurts their chances of surviving a Michigan winter is raising brood all the way into late November, using up their winter stores to raise more and more brood. When you do a late fall inspection they appear to have enough honey to make the winter, but what you don't know until it is too late is that they use up most of their honey raising more brood for another month or so after what was supposed to be your last inspection of the season. I think I would try Carni's before I would go with Italians here in Michigan. I had the choice of Italians or Carni's when I picked up my packages last spring also, I think I picked the wrong one. John


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## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

Each one has their trade offs. Italians, as stated, are not frugal on their stores. Carnis can build up very quickly once the weather turns. We get some false springs here in the PNW. It can go from 50s and 60s one week to 30s and snow the next. In those cases, you end up feeding carnis an awful lot.


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

at our recent bee meeting one of the main speakers said to basically plan on requeening all your packages with another high quality queen as there has been trouble with package bees. another guy last year said to try and get local nucs in spring - people were reporting problems with packages to him in 2009


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I bought a package of their NWC last year to try them out. Made 3 nucs with them, & they produced 100# of honey. All 4 made it through winter, & are building up like gangbusters.

I intend to make a few more queens from her.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I thought I told you once before that there are no winters in California. John


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Beeup - try al little bit of everything, see what works best for you. We got some very light Italians once, possibly Cordovans?, that where VERY good honey producers, and with above average feeding, made it through a Wiscsonsin winter. We also tried some Strachen NWC last year. We will know real soon how they did.


Roland


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## StrikerSonic (Jul 15, 2010)

I'm from the northwest where we get some cold winters too and I'm a Carniolan man all the way. Carniolans' native habitat is the Alps of eastern Europe. They've evolved to deal with cold weather and brutal winters, unlike their Mediterranean cousins who just want to sit around drinking wine and eating cheese in the sunshine. Go with the Carnies, man.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Yeah, those Italian's sure know how to live. John


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I don't get it. Why would you order Italian queens if you want to replace them later with minnesota hygienic queens? If you want minn. hygienic queens , get them by all means, but it will be a lot easier if you got them from the start.

I get a lot of their carniolan queens and they do well in our neck of the woods (PNW).

Jean-Marc


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Guys from Canada with French names will never understand Italians.


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## MastoDon (Nov 29, 2010)

We do so have winters here. Gee, San Francisco got 1/8 inch of snow last week. First time in 35 years. You shoulda heard the weather-weenies on the TV, prognoticating all manner of biblical doom.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I was there a few weeks ago and the weather was nothing short of spectacular, everybody walking around saying this just isnt normal. I told them don't worry in weather there are always "pay backs".


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Forget breeds.

Get a hold of local bees or bees north of your location if you're concerned about winter. Seeing as how you're in Michigan, that could be a little harder. Zia Queenbees sells some Northern Michigan stock.

Olivarez is California. I wouldn't do it. I grew up in Southern Oregon, I own bees from Glenn CA. Those are pollination bees. They're not what you're looking for.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

The best overwintering bee as far as frugality of stores is the Mnt Gray Caucasian bee. Sadly, I do not think that there are any pure bloodlines of it left in the USA that are commercially available at the moment. In a year or two, Dr. Shepard will be releasing some lineages of these gentle bees. TK PS We use a Carniolian/Italian cross with a whiff of mnt gray and buckfast.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

If you want some good hardy bees.... Russian Bees are the way.... You just need to be more careful with the bees. (In Russia Bees take 7 months of snow and cold temp. with success)

Italians are just not suitable for harsh winters. I never had Carnolians but from what I have been told

-they handle winter better
-faster spring buildup
-build wax faster... Frames get drawn faster


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

So what are some drawbacks of Carniolans? Overall they sound like a better bee for me here in a northern climate. I heard they cut back on brood rearing better than Italians when nectar/pollen get scarce. But I also think I heard they generally are not as productive either as Italians. John


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Just remember, dead bees are very unproductive.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

WireForStereo, Yeah, I should have added that to the end of my post. I learned a lesson about Italian's this this last fall and winter that I should have figured out years ago. They just don't do that well in the harsh long winters we have up here. No, question, they have many good qualities like building up fast, gentleness, productivity, but like you say dead bees are very unproductive. I remember having much trouble even 30 years ago getting them through most winters up here. Given excessive stores and a mild winter, yes, they can make it through alright. I think I will change my stock over to something else this year and see what results I get. I may try rearing a few survivor Italian queens from the hives that have made the last couple winters (how they did it I don't know) in a row here, maybe they will show an advantage of some sort. John


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

When I hear that someone lost 10 out of 10 I highly doubt the breeder can be blamed. At least for 100% of the collapse. As a competitor to OHB and as one who has attended meetings with their staff at bee and queen breeder functions I can attest to the fact that they are doing things to improve queen productivity beyond what the average breeder is doing. 

Somehow people tend to think the pre Varroa days have come back and the beekeeping techniques of slam and feed are all thats needed today.


How come Ray and company didn't loose 100% of their bees this winter?

If questioned I bet Mr. 10 out of 10 did not do either one or all of the following things since getting his bees.

1. Check mite loads in August and treat accordingly.
2. Check nosema loads on a periodic basis and treat appropriately.
3. Feed pollen supplement in copious amounts going into the fall.
4. Feed the bees with syrup as so the lid on the top box produced a dull thud when tapped. ( for those of you in Lodi that means fill the second box till its full BEFORE the cold weather arrives)
5. keep them out of the wind. 

As old blue boxes says himself and I'm paraphrasing here: "Lazy beekeepers make lazy bees" and may I add most likely dead ones. 

Those on the lazy or "natural" bandwagon are sooner or later about to fall off the wagon and get run over by it. 

If I was a woodpecker in a Michigan tree and observed the beekeeping habits of the owner of the aforementioned dead hives I would bet Mr. 10 out of 10 fits at least partially into one of these categories. 

Besides lambasting OHB's bees lets see an honest response as to what regimen you followed with the packages from the day you received them till he day they "died. "

You will get a better opportunity to get responses as to what might have gone wrong in your attempt to keep them alive.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Honey-4-All said:


> ( for those of you in Lodi that means fill the second box till its full BEFORE the cold weather arrives)
> .


Hey Phil, could you expand on the Lodi thing.


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## NCSUbeeKEEPER (Feb 28, 2011)

It _is_ awfully easy to blame breeders/suppliers for self-error. I can trace every colony I've lost to something I think I should have done differently. This is the best way to improve as a keeper.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Aside from the 'feed treat feed treat treat treat feed' crowd, bees have survived millions of years without our help, and should in all logic be able to do it today.

Here is some objective evidence for why a northerner should not buy southern or California bees: 

I bought California bees, raised them in Oregon fine for six years. No problem. Moved them to Arkansas (which is south but has startingly cold spells to -24) and all but one of them died of cold starvation. That's when they can't move the cluster and starve to death within inches of capped honey. [They often do this in December, even before the actual really cold weather.]

I bought Georgia bees while living here and they have consistently had problems with cold starvation. Same exact problems. Small cell organic stock and all.

All this was done without treatments and without feeding in the fall. I have not had a hive die of regular 'ran out of food' starvation, only southern hives dying of cold starvation. If you have to feed, you are a poor manager, and rob too much.

Understand I'm not trashing Olivarez or anybody else's bees. I am saying you'll have more success obtaining bees acclimatized to your area. So you need to start with them, or develop them over time by increasing with survivors. Starting with them will be more fun.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

WiredForStereo said:


> If you have to feed, you are a poor manager,.


Yep.... Now I know how to do it.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Keith and Company,

I am referring to someone dead between me and you who has the proclivity to not feed at all. Better said, very little. One pound of sub per hive and no syrup. None. Dead out rate very bad. Although I can hardly blame the loses on no feed alone as his summer yards are smack in the middle of a spray zone quagmire. The no feed fact is not helping his situation to say the least.

Enough said.

Only part of the equation as we all know.


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## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

I think a whole lot of last years failures can be placed on poorly mated queens. Of the 10 I bought (from another N. cali breeder) only one made it through the summer. The rest were superceded, or never took. I've never had a batch of queens perform that poorly. I have similar stories from other well-seasoned beekeepers.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Lots of reasons for queen failure. Not enough drones. Bad weather. Nosema. And who knows what else on the bacteria and virus factor. As most of the breeders are putting these same queens in their own hives Im sure they aren't raising junk on purpose.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Honey-4-All,

I think you need to go back and re-read what I actually said in my first post in this thread, instead of reading more into what I said than what I actually said. Where did you get the idea that I was bashing Olivarez Bees in particular because I lost all 10 of last years packages by December? Please read, don't assume, don't read any more into it. If you want to believe that I lost all 10 hives because I'm a lazy beekeeper, or I don't know how to properly build up package bees from day 1 and grow them into strong, healthy, well provisioned colonies that are in the ideal position to make it through a wimpy Michigan winter, well, all I can say is go ahead and believe what you want, I could care less. FYI, I am just one of the many "lazy" treatment free beekeepers across the country, this is by my own choice. John


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

jmgi said:


> So what are some drawbacks of Carniolans? Overall they sound like a better bee for me here in a northern climate. I heard they cut back on brood rearing better than Italians when nectar/pollen get scarce. But I also think I heard they generally are not as productive either as Italians. John


*Pros of Carnolian*

 * Earlier morning forager
* Forages on colder and wetter days than most other bees
* Overwinters well on small stores, as queen stops laying in the fall
* Rapid build up in early spring
* Don't wander off
* Exceptionally gentle and easy to work
* Brood production is dependant on availability of supplies, hence more food more forages, less food smaller population
* Less Robbing
* Less susceptible to brood disease
* Creates less brace and burr comb

*Cons of Carnolian*

* Swarms easily when no expansion room is available
* If pollen is scarce brood rearing greatly diminishes

Source: http://www.beekeepingstarterkit.com/page/1317490


How I deal with the cons-

If you give them space and check them them often they wont swarm.
When I check them and find swarm cells I take the frame with swarm cells and put into new hive box with a few frames of honey, Bees, and brood.

Or I do a fake swarm effect.... 

However, ventilation and adding boxes for space will really decrease chance of swarming. Make sure to have a good water source. Carnolians are more productive in wetter climates. In dry climates they both work well. It all depends on health of hive and nectar availability.

Hope this helps...


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

RAK, thanks for the list of pros and cons, I am going with Carni's this spring for a change, we'll see what happens. John


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Good Luck... Hopefully you will get healthy bees with good solid Carnolian traits.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

thanks for reminding me John.


jmgi said:


> I thought I told you once before that there are no winters in California. John


Oliverez is pritty far north. I'm guessing 200 miles from the OR border. We went up there last April, & the distant hills where covered with snow. 
Not back east winters, but it does get cold in Orland.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

"The distant hills" is Mount Shasta. It has snow year round. Orland is warmer than Southern Oregon, I don't remember it getting below about 20. In Michigan, I'd guess 20 is a warm spring day.


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## MegP (Mar 29, 2009)

I've got a couple of hives with Olivarez queens and they made it through a NYC winter really well. They looked kinda puny when I got them and it took 'em a little while to get going but I have to say, I'm pretty happy with them. Definitely worth a try in your neck of the woods.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

JMGI,

Reread your post. If it was a Italian vs Carni debate I'm not sure why you mentioned Ray and company in the first place. Seems it would be irrelevant to mention them if all you were doing is comparing strains . 

The MH line of Italians were a great line of bees although not nearly an A+ line on the mite resistant scale. (personal experience) 

In our 300 hive test in Alaska in 2009 the MH line produced over 15 lbs more per hive than either carni's or the reds. They are good bees and can make a ton of honey if cared for under the right flows. (very gentle ,high honey production, and CB and FB resistant)

In general I would agree with you that carni's might be preferred QT for a hive that is overwintered in your location as opposed to an Italian. If you buy Italians then take care of them like Italians.

One treats a Clydesdale different than one would treat a pony. Although they all need the same general care you need to bounce the ball according to the nuances of the game your playing. Same with the bees. "Treating" Italians like Russians is unwise and undiplomatic in the least. Everything from the number of puffs of smoke used when opening a box all the way to pounds needed in the second box in late fall will be determined by what your working with. 

I am going to stick to my guns in saying that for a Michigan beekeeper to allow bees to starve by December is ONLY caused by inattention on the beekeepers part . If they starved in.... lets say.... now...... I might cut you some slack. Before December..... Come on. If you had a poor crop my question # 4 in post 22 about feeding is all the more relevant.

Although they can be mean you might want to consider using some Russian stock if you insist on feeding them so little in the fall and are precluded from any thought regarding the necessity of "treatment" even one so benign as a powdered sugar application. 

From the business side I guess I should be happy that there are "treatment" free beekeepers. Besides new-bees they make up a large portion or our customers. Keeping the darn bugs alive is hard enough as is and expensive to boot for anyone. To keep buying replacement packages every year for every hive you own is just plain loco unless you have more money than time. 

I was having a discussion the other day with some other beeks about the supposed cost of the new formic acid strips. What is 5 or 10 dollars compared to the price of a package? How about the "unnatural" option of feed?

When all factors are considered I've always wondered why people don't "cost" the expense of dead bees. New packages and splits are still much more expensive than any treatment or feed we currently toss their way. 

As a big animal rights activist I think it should bee illegal to treat you bees is such a poor manner. We can get thrown in jail for failing to feed our kids and for kicking the dog. Starving your bees and letting them go through the pain of getting chewed to death by little bugs is just as bad. 

Was wondering where the genetics on that survivor stock was derived from in the first place? Might want to buy some from the breeder myself. 

??MQTA??


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

RAK

In your list of Cons above on the Carni's you say that "a pollen dearth will curtail brood rearing." 

Since we are trying to assist a gentleman who starved his bees to death before December would not a queen type which retreats from laying brood during a starvation cycle be a better choice for someone who doesn't want to feed? 

Seems to me this is a positive attribute for a keeper in jgmi's shoes. 

These lists of pros and cons really depends on your location and goals with the bees.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Honey-4-All said:


> From the business side I guess I should be happy that there are "treatment" free beekeepers. Besides new-bees they make up a large portion or our customers. Keeping the darn bugs alive is hard enough as is and expensive to boot for anyone. To keep buying replacement packages every year for every hive you own is just plain loco unless you have more money than time.


Wishful thinking.

When I do buy, I do it to enhance genetic variability (no packages). I buy from organic or survivor suppliers. I have never bought to "replace," only to expand.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

WFS

That may be your case and an admirable position to be in. From someone who sells packages I can assure you that not all folks are of the same mindset or position. 

Any clues on a good source of "survivor" stock that works 2 plus years without any intervention?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

That would be our local mutts.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'd be happy to.

I have one colony continuously occupying the same hive for 8 years. I'm going to raise some queens from them this year, perhaps you'd like to buy a few. I have another colony continuously occupying the same hive for four years. Neither of these have been requeened.

Don "fatbeeman" Kuchenmeister would be happy to sell you queens, but you probably won't be able to get on the list this year.

Zia Queenbees claims their breeders are two years old.

I'm looking forward to getting a hold of some of Michael Bush's bees next year when he produces again.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Honey-4-All,

I'm going to stand by what I said to you before, which is you really need to go back and read what I said in my initial post, why I said it, and who I was directing my response to. Did you happen to read the original poster's question? Let me take you by the hand and walk you through it. The person stated they were going to purchase 10 packages from Olivarez Bees and were debating on whether to go with Italians or Carni's and which would be better for their climate. I simply stated that I had purchased the same number of packages of Italians from Olivarez last spring and that they were now deceased as of December. Then I proceded to make a general statement that the commercial Italian stock is weak nowadays, which doesn't help matters when it comes to wintering in a tough climate. I certainly wasn't picking on Olivarez in particular like you are assuming. Now, you may disagree with what I said about Italian stock, and you may want to heap all the blame on me for my losses, and for being a lazy beekeeper, that's fine, you are entitled to your opinion, but please do not put words in my mouth. I would be curious to know how many other readers here interpreted what I said the same as you, yes, I surely would. 

And as for my Italian hives that have survived a couple winters in a row, well, they didn't come from Olivarez. John


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## olddrown (Oct 28, 2009)

For my self i have VSH a dark bee,also raise queens.You ask about what would be the best for you,Carni's for all the reasons listed.Dark bees usely do better with the cold.


Good bee keeping


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

jmgi said:


> I would be curious to know how many other readers here interpreted what I said the same as you


No, we all got it. 

What we have is the offering of an opinion and experience on one side, and the peddling of a point of view on the other side. 

Perhaps we should stop feeding the trolls.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jmgi said:


> I would be curious to know how many other readers here interpreted what I said the same as you, yes, I surely would.


Well, ok then, since you asked, I think it would have been better left unsaid the Queen suppliers name, although I think Phil already stated that.

P.S you don't need to hold my hand.


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## beeup (Apr 10, 2010)

I should have titled the post Olivarez has great bees, because in no way was I blaming them for poor stock. My problems were operator error and weather. Just asking for advise on breeds and thanks to all who responded. P.S. Many folks here in Michigan have had high losses from what I've heard.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Honey-4-All said:


> RAK
> 
> In your list of Cons above on the Carni's you say that "a pollen dearth will curtail brood rearing."
> 
> ...


Depends on how you look at it and the time of year brood diminishes. One of the reasons Italians don't survive cold harsh winters is because queens keeps on laying eggs which if you think about, it is what most beekeepers want. However lots of bees is not good for harsh winters. Food is used up for brood.

So why do Russian bees and Carnolians survive harsh winters??

Well the queen decreases laying (in my area October when the mint fields gets cut). If you have to many bees they could starve...

I got an Italian hive and we had temperatures drop -20C frequently. Recently I checked them on a sunny day and they are doing good. I got them from a local keeper who has really healthy Italians.

All my other hives went in the winter with less bees but are doing better than Italians.

Bees should have honey in their brood chamber. I find feeding necessary because it gets very cold.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

>I am going to stick to my guns in saying that for a Michigan beekeeper to allow bees to starve by December is ONLY caused by inattention on the beekeepers part.

I'm sorry, but I just can't ignore this statement. So, ANY Michigan beekeeper who has ever had a colony die by December is at fault for not giving their bees enough attention, that's ridiculous. Yes, some probably deserve a degree of blame, but your comments are in reality directed at me without knowing all the facts my situation, and you somehow feel inclined to heap 99% of the blame for my losses on me, I just don't get it. John


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## BeeLee (Sep 16, 2010)

jmgi said:


> >I am going to stick to my guns in saying that for a Michigan beekeeper to allow bees to starve by December is ONLY caused by inattention on the beekeepers part.


I don't want to get too into this since it is getting a little too, um, hot for me, but I think Honey-4-All didn't mean that every single loss is in MI is due to beekeeper error. Only that since all 10 colonies were lost so early, it would suggest something wrong on the beekeeper side and not the Q producer or Italian stock side.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I guess what bothers me the most about this whole thing is that in two years of being a member on Beesource forums, I have yet to run into someone, that being Honey-4-All, who is so openly critical of someone who for whatever reason had the misfortune of losing 10 of 10 colonies established from packages last season. The tone of Honey-4-All's comments towards me went beyond what was appropriate especially since all the facts of my situation could not have even been known, it was pure speculation and nothing else. Furthermore, the mere fact that I mentioned the Olivarez name in my original post was evidently enough for Honey-4-All to jump to their defense, thinking I guess that I was on a personal mission to defile the Olivarez name because I had some deadout hives and I needed to blame someone for it. For everyone reading this, be careful what you say around some people. John


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Beelee,

Exactly, no more, no less. Bullseye Beelee is how you are now known in Honey -4-All land. Thanks. And if I may say so. Thanks again. 




It would be my hope that jgmi and anyone else who has found themselves in a similar situation as he shared would by willing to reevaluate their protocols.

My advice is not from a new-bee oozing with a well intentioned but not thought out dream of how I want beekeeping to be. 


I have lost a lot of hives in the past 6 years. Probably close to 600K worth of dead-outs. No small chump change, As one who refuses to use illegal chemicals in my hives I have paid dearly.


Thank God that each year we have reduced that number through breeding and "being on time " with the items I listed in my first post in this string.


If you were to check with beekeepers who have a very high survival rate.... lets say above 85% I would bet most follow the steps I listed and most will likely include other steps. You may not like it..... and I am sure with you.......... the old paradigm of throwing bees in a box and walking away are LO--------------NG gone. Get used to the new ways or find something else to do. 

You may not believe it now but you will someday.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I agree with Honey-4-you that the days of absentee beekeeping are rapidly on the way out, if not already gone. It has come down to getting out of your bees what you put in. Yes, I believe any of our hives that died before December are my fault. I missed something in the preceding months. I will also admit that it is not profitable to save every hive.

On the issue of queen failure, prompt and regular inspections ussually will catch any problems right away, and remedial action can be taken to correct, and overcome, any problems with the queens ability to support the hive. We also say, that "Nothing straightens out queen problems like a good honey flow". It has been awhile since we have had a steady honey flow.(Wild cherry trees, 2009)

Roland


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

85% doesn't seem to me like a "very high survival rate." High, yes. Very high, no.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Roland, 

Now I know that being a northern state beekeeper you have seen cold related starvation in hives before and what it looks like when you open up a deadout from that cause. After keeping bees on and off for over 35 years here in Michigan, I know what it looks like too, and can recognize it when I see it. Those 10 hives started as packages last year were all deadouts sometime in December due to cold/starvation. Hives (3 medium depth boxes each) were all fed 2:1 syrup from October till the snow was flying in November to boost their stores because our fall goldenrod, aster flow was nothing to write home about, usual thing for our area. Besides the syrup feeding, the hives had very ample food stores of capped honey, pollen in all boxes, and queenright clusters of sufficient size. Most hives still had brood present on my last inspection sometime in late October/early November believe it or not. As hard as it may be for some to believe, these hives all died from starvation due to harsh unrelenting cold of long duration. All hives had plenty of stores just inches from the cluster, but they couldn't move to get to it. I don't know of any beekeeper in my area who routinely inspects their hives in December, so there is nothing that could have been done differently by me that would have produced a different outcome, nothing I could have done to save them, they were on their own at that point, and what happened, happened. John


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

WSF

85% from date of split. "Day one" to "Day dead" annualized. Thats queen acceptance. One month failures. Swarms, Supercedures, Queens knocked off in moves, Queens knocked off in treatments. Bees dieing of disease. Bees dieing of mites, Bees dieing of "whatever." Two framers at almonds are considered dead. BTW: No requeening or late splits cheating included.

Give my a commercial beekeeper who has this rate on a thousand hives or more and I will most likely be able to introduce you to someone happy and rich enough to buy you a drink, in Hawaii, on his one week annual vacation. 

85% from late August till almond bloom would be ok although not superb.

85% from day one would make me more than pleased as punch. 

Here's to shooting for 90%. 


??MQTA??


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I might buy 95% as very high, even 90. But not 85.


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## NCSUbeeKEEPER (Feb 28, 2011)

I would consider 95% unheard of today. I've kept both of my colonies alive two seasons, so I guess I'm at 100%... but I hardly think that counts


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

If I had an 85% survival rate a year after I made my splits I would be spending more that 1 week a year in Hawaii.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Bees may be bees but beekeepers aren't all cut from the same cloth.

If nothing else is apparent from this discussion it is becoming apparent to me that how you hold your hive tool makes a difference as to how you view the bees inside the box. 

If you hold your hive tool close you look at bees one way and if you hold your hive tool at the far end of the lever you look at bees another way. 

The disparity between a commercial outlook on a hive and a hobbyist view is somewhat divergent. 

When you dump your spare time into a hive any ensuing hive collapse doesn't look the same as when the same impending collapse is about to take away you bread and butter for the next day if not more.

To be continued..............


More later. Time for bed. Need to sleep on this one. (with my hive tool at my side)


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Bees may be bees but beekeepers aren't all cut from the same cloth.

If nothing else is apparent from this discussion it is becoming apparent to me that how you hold your hive tool makes a difference as to how you view the bees inside the box. 

If you hold your hive tool close you look at bees one way and if you hold your hive tool at the far end of the lever you look at bees another way. 

The disparity between a commercial outlook on a hive and a hobbyist view is somewhat divergent. 

When you dump your spare time into a hive any ensuing hive collapse doesn't look the same as when the same impending collapse is about to take away you bread and butter for the next day if not longer.

To be continued..............


More later. Time for bed. Need to sleep on this one. (With my hive tool at my side as grafting starts tomorrow)


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## Bradley_Bee (May 21, 2008)

I over wintered 60 Oliverez italian queens this year. I split them in september. Out of that , I probably have 55 left. They did very well. However, i'm in California. we don't have winter here


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

>When you dump your spare time into a hive any ensuing hive collapse doesn't look the same as when the same impending collapse is about to take away you bread and butter for the next day if not longer.

Now I think you may be starting to get it. I don't depend on my bees for a living, maybe you do I don't know. But, I will say that I care about losing hives just as much as you do, trust me. We may have different ways of doing things, actually no two beekeepers manage their hives alike whether it be your livelihood or hobby, I'm sure you realize that. When I got back into bees a couple years ago after not having them for many years (pre-varroa days), I decided to go completely treatment free, not even sugar dusting. I even elected to not feed pollen sub. or sugar syrup, I would save frames of capped honey and pollen for future feeding if I needed to instead. Well, I have since given in to the feeding of sugar syrup, but that's about as far as I have conceded. It is evident that you don't agree with the treatment free mentality, and that's fine with me, but don't for one minute think that I don't take losing a hive seriously. Also, my opinion about the commercial Italian stock available today is shared by many others much smarter than I. I'm not throwing all the blame for my high losses on the breeders, they can only do the best they can with the genetics available to them today. John


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

jmgi - Let me start by saying that I have had losses like yours over three different winters. I still say they where my fault, but it took a couple years to figure out what I did wrong. Failure is not so bad if you learn and correct your ways. I believe you are just as concerned about your bees as a commercial beekeeper. 

Lets see if we can find out what MAY have happened to your bees. First of all, I do not care what breed of bee you had, as long as they had 6 feet, and they where all pointed down. We sucessfully overwintered Cordovans in Wisconsin, which are not suppose to winter worth a hoot.

You say they "strarved" with food near them. Did you make any other observations, like they did not seem to retain the weight of syrup that you added? Is more syrup missing than you would expect for the time period since you feed?

What where the bees like in the Summer? Where they productive? Good solid brood pattern? How many frames of brood on September 1? Give me an idea of when/how often you looked at them.

When did you stop seeing pollen come in? When did the Aster/goldenrod flow end? How much do you think they gathered? How much did you feed(in lbs)?

I have 2 hypothesis, how you respond may help me decide. 

Roland


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Roland,

I'm going to try to answer your questions best I can based on memory, because I didnt' keep accurate written records of individual hive performance, weather, plant blooming, etc. 

I started all ten 3 lb. packages of Italians in early May. I use all medium boxes for brood and surplus honey, also used foundationless frames because I wanted the bees to build all natural comb and go treatment free. I fed the bees syrup for the first few weeks only because there was a fairly strong nectar/pollen flow going from the first day of installation in the hives. As you remember, last spring was way ahead of itself, so installing packages in May was way too late, at least for last year, they missed out on alot of the early flowering trees, most of the dandelion and other early flowers that would have provided nectar and pollen for buildup. However, the weather was exceptionally nice for that time of spring and there was still much nectar and pollen coming in. The dutch lawn clover was starting to bloom within a week or so of installing the packages. 

I didn't have any drawn comb to give them from the start, so having to build all their own comb in the foundationless frames and rear brood required alot of resources, including both the syrup I provided and some of the nectar coming in. One thing I would do differently would have been to continue the syrup feeding longer than what I did. All the colonies eventually drew out three boxes of frames each, about half the hives even did a fourth box. All queens were accepted and began laying, all had nice solid worker patterns, did seem to get alot of drone comb too, but that can happen when you go foundationless. Supercedure occured in a few colonies I believe in the summer, but all occured successfully as they had laying queens again eventually in late summer/early fall. I would say that as of Sept. 1 all hives had at least 10 frames of brood, but that's just rough.

I got no honey crop overall out of the 10 hives, which really was not surprising to me considering all the comb building they had to do plus raise a season's worth of brood. We had really good weather for foraging, warmth, sun, and rain when we needed it into the summer period, but we did get a drought in late summer/early fall which diminished the incoming resources somewhat. The weather for the goldenrod/aster flow was pleasant but cooler than what I would have liked, I don't really think they did that well nectar-wise, lots of pollen came in though throughout their bloom period. But, I didn't see much gain in hive weights from the fall flow, actually, that's about the time I started seeing upon inspection a decrease in the amount of uncapped nectar they had stored previously, so I figured they were starting to use up stores to continue brood rearing. That's about the time I started to feed 2:1 syrup and I continued that until about the time it got too cold and the bees stopped taking the syrup, there was even snowflakes in the air. At that point they were on their own, I did have some concern about how they would winter just like any beekeeper would. I figured if they could make it till late winter I could always start emergency feeding of some type. Well, they didn't make it that far, all hives still had capped honey though, but it was just out of reach of the clusters. A few hives even had a couple frames of scattered sealed worker brood left, those Italians sure like to rear late brood. That's about it. John


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

"but we did get a drought in late summer/early fall which diminished the incoming resources somewhat. "

That is the time that winter bees must be raised, My guess, which could be wrong, is that the queen missed out on laying during this critical period. We failed in a similiar manner a few years ago.

The other clue is the amount of honey produced. We can typically split 3 lb pachages in a range of 3 from 2, or 2 from one, draw foundation , and make a honey crop. 
You are not that different geographically than us, so you situation should be similiar? Wayne is near Detroit?
Are you sure your bees where healthy? Any tests done?
Was ALL of the equipment new?

Roland


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

i agree that the bees might have lost out on the fall bee production end due to the lack of nectar.
Feeding until the snow flies is too late. The bees need time to dry down the syrup so it reduces the moisture in the hives. 

I would ask how heavy your hives were going into winter and how many frames of bees.

How long is your winter? Different area than mine.
Our area, we start feeding begining of September and wrap between Canadian thanksgiving and halloween. Syrup intake should be done early October. Snow flies usually just before halloween. No checking on hives from wrapping until beginning of April. Our hives take in 5-7 gallons of syrup. 2 double deep boxes for brood chambers. One packed with stores and they other about half packed, maybe more. 

My guess, not young bees too make the winter, too much moisture...and maybe too weak from having to work so hard they could not access what feed they had...not enough fat on their backs, so to speak.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Roland,

I didn't really notice a letup in brood rearing during the drought we had, although they may have somewhat just not enough for me to notice a huge difference. Like I said, I did see a substantial decrease in their stores in the top (third or fourth) box during the dearth, telling me that they were digging into their stores to continue brood rearing and for food for the adults. No question, it would have been nice to get at least a small honey crop from them the first year, but seeing as how they had to draw all natural comb (large amount of resources to draw 1 lb. wax) the first year I thought that may have been a normal expectation. Evidently, they didn't do as well as packages you have installed in the past. Yes, I am near Detroit, so our areas are similar at least in latitude, our honey plants would also be similar I would think. I didn't do any mite tests, no SBB, sticky boards on those hives, no alcohol washes, never had any indication they were unhealthy at all. And yes, all packages were installed into brand new equipment. As I said previously, in hindsight I would have continued feeding syrup longer at least until they had capped stores (something Michael Bush has said), I don't know if giving them pollen substitute from the start would have helped, as plenty of natural pollen was coming in at the time. Fast forwarding to fall, the bees were occupying 3 medium boxes, not boiling over with bees by any means, but they looked decent to me for winter. I didn't lift the back of the hives to see how they felt for their size, maybe I should have. I fed like crazy in the fall and they took all I gave them, which was substantial. There are a few things I would have done differently, and maybe those things would have made some difference in the outcome, I really don't know. John


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

honeyshack, 

Our goldenrod/aster flow was a slight bit earlier last year (August and September) than normal because the season was so advanced right from the start. I think I waited too long to start feeding, when I saw that the fall flow wasn't panning out the way I had hoped that should have been the signal, I didn't start feeding soon enough probably, but hindsight is 20/20. John


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

i don't buy bees much anymore but i hear from others in MN/WI who are real happy with Olivarez packages and queen EXCEPT couple of beeks picked up SHB in their packages last year. Olivarez swears they did not come from them but the facts don't add up on the ground. 

Olivarez is using some good carniolan breeder genetics but have no drone sources for purity so they are hybrid. They have a family line of bees too which I think when I visited them in 2007 they said are the basis for their drone sources.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Bud, 

Good to know all that, as I am getting Carni packages this spring from them. John


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Jmgi

Very helpful info being divulged. Considering what you said I would guess your problems were caused by.

1. No early mite treatment. Especially important on a bad fall flow.
2. Virus/Nosema problems related to no mite treatment . No idea of Nosema levels going into fall. 
3. Late start. Bees started behind the optimum day tend to crack off more than they used to.


If I was in those hives late November I would bet they would be declining due to either effects of varroa or Nosema. Most likely a combination of both.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

This may have already been addressed so my
apology if it has.

Was there any warm spells during the winter??
There are times that a queen may start laying
even in winter if a few warm days happen. The
bees will not come off the brood and starve.

Moisture is a killer here. I recommend Tarheit's
top cover design. Do a search and you should
find it. Tim's site has plans you can use. Or just
buy them from him.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Sundance, that would be a definite "no" on warm spells anytime this winter. John


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

In the pro's and con's list - I imagine that this list refers to the New World Carniolans because the "real" old world Carniolan strain which some beeks have, behave somewhat differently concerning swarming. They swarm far more often and are much more difficult to control intheir swarming behavior than the NWC. My experiences with the original Carniolans in the early 1970's leads me to add this. If your getting Carniolans, it would be wise to specify NWC with breeders. OMTCW


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

My best luck so far in wintering is Russians x VSH.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Honey-4-All,

Let me address the points that you made that you see as being my problems. 

You're correct, there was no mite treatments because I was committed to going treatment free, so monitoring mite populations wouldn't have mattered because I wasn't going to treat anyways. I realize this mentality is not understood and accepted my many beekeepers, they figure they will treat routinely, and if they must, but they will not stand by and watch their bees die to mites and associated diseases. Believe me, I fully understand that mindset also, this is just a choice I made when I got back into bees a couple years back, I wanted to go the all natural approach. Remember, this is just a hobby for me at this point in time, its not my bread and butter. 
You're also correct about the late start they got in the spring. I ordered my packages through a local Dadant branch who got them from Olivarez. I had no choice on when to get the packages from Dadant, I would have preferred to start them out in late March in my area to time it with the onset of tree bloom (maples and such) dandelions, etc. Dadant's was only getting them in early May. I knew it was a mistake at the time, I should have shopped around sooner in the year and lined up some packages for late March/early April delivery, but I dragged my feet about it and that's all I could get at the time. Nucs would have been a better option for starting later, but anyway. 
Maybe mites, nosema did play a part in their demise, I don't know. I do know that there are some things that I could have and should have done differently to help them out, and I think I addressed some of those in a post to Roland earlier today. I am starting to think that the cluster size was either too small for the winter we ended up having, not being able to generate enough heat in the center of the cluster to continue survival and move to new frames of honey. Or, during early winter, the cluster encountered some frames in the lower brood chamber that were lacking in sufficient honey/syrup, to sustain them during extreme extended cold, we also had some brutal winds that lasted longer periods of time too. When doing one of my last inspections of the year, I should have done a more thorough breaking down of the hives to see exactly how many full frames of stores they actually had in every box, I did inspect but not to that extent, my fault on that one too I guess.
When its all said and done, I think the one thing I should have done better was monitor their winter food situation a little earlier in the fall, and getting the bees a little earlier in the spring would have helped immensely too. John


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I use little or no treatments either. Only "soft"
treatments when needed. Powdered sugar, thymol,
FGMO, etc.

My best advise lies with the queen and the VSH
line is nice as are the Russians. Hygienic and frugal.

Also I am no fan of packages up here. They work, but
usually have been heavily treated, or have a pretty
good mite load. Or sometimes there are lots of old
bees.

I prefer Nucs. There may be someone on the board that
sells Nucs in your area and may be small cell, or chemical
free.

In any case.... Good luck


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Sundance, how are the Russians are far as gentleness, I think I have read more folks saying that they can be testy rather than gentle. Gentleness is important to me as I have neighbors on both sides of me even though I have about 1/2 acre property, also I have the uncontrollable habit of wanting to just sit right along side my hives and watch them for hours on end. I have some Italian bees that like to head butt me when I am sitting there minding my own business! John


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I agree with Honeyshack and Honey-4-all. That was the direction my questions where going. The report of them using up stores is indicitive of no honey flow, and most likely resulted in fewer eggs being laid than where needed. Your summer population descriptions sound low also. We run 1 deep for brood, and 3-4 deep supers. There should be bees in all of them when the weather is warm, right up to the roof. The lack of honey production confirms low popupations?. 

Like your self, I am trying to not use any miticides, but that does not mean I do nothing to control mite. I actively, every 12-14 days, with out chemicals, attack the mites. Your results are pretty much as expected, no matter what kind of bees, from your description of what was done to them. I realize that is harsh, but just my opinion, not an insult.

Looking into the future, I would expect the same reults with any kind of bee you buy. Those with success, seem to develop their own strain of bees from surbibors, but you first have to have survivors.

Roland


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

jmgi said:


> Sundance, how are the Russians are far as gentleness,


Pure Russians can be testy, but my experience hasn't
been that they are hot. I am now using Russian X VSH
and they are pretty gentle.



jmgi said:


> I have the uncontrollable habit of wanting to just sit right along side my hives and watch them for hours on end.


Been there, done that, do that.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Roland,

I have some survivors, a couple top bar hives of Italians that have made two winters now (I know thats not alot, but its a start) with absolutely no treatments of any kind, no extra insulation, nothing. They have also been among the tops in production even compared to my Langs. They made this nasty winter, so they must have something going for them. John


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

jmgi said:


> I have the uncontrollable habit of wanting to just sit right along side my hives and watch them for hours on end.John


I walk out to look at the hives every day. It turned into a big problem last year because of the chiggers in the trees where I kept them. I moved the hives and cut the trees down (some of them). Better year this year.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I hear you, when I sit in my chair watching the bees, I get chiggers all over from the knees down. My chair sits in grass and weeds that get about a foot or so tall, a chigger heaven. I guess it must be worth it, I keep doing it every year. John


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## beeup (Apr 10, 2010)

Picked up my 10 packages yesturday. Istalled them quickly due to cold weather. Queens look lively and healthy.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Getting some Olivarez Carni Queens and I am looking for an update on your performance with them  I want diversity in my operation and these are the first Californian Queens NS are importing with our beekeeping association .


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Ben Little said:


> Getting some Olivarez Carni Queens and I am looking for an update on your performance with them  I want diversity in my operation and these are the first Californian Queens NS are importing with our beekeeping association .


Two years ago I started 6 nucs mid-summer with those queens. I went into the winter with 17 colonies but lost 10 by spring time. Of the 7 that made it to Spring, six were the double 5-frame medium nucs with the Olivarez Carniolans...


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## crewdog61 (Oct 23, 2012)

I have been reading this post and can say that Olivarez Carniolans are a good choice bought 3 packages last year had tons of bees all summer long also had 2 hives that have made it the past 2 winters mostly look like mutts. Went into winter feeling like everything was as it should be tons of honey,feeding up until it got to cold to do so weight check 180+ all hives 2 deeps with full honey supers on first year packages as learned in class added candy boards just for a plus. Even had a bee inspector check my hives before winter good to go for the winter and after lost all 3 hives to cold bees just inches away from full frames of honey never made it up to candy boards. Also lost 1 of the mutt hives for the same thing. 

So even very healthy hives can die out would like to think that this bee keeper did all he could have done to help them make it to spring. 

I would buy Olivarez bees again but thinking on trying my hand at swarms and local bees and do a split or two off my last hive. Time will tell


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

As I replied in another post, make sure you're on top of your mites.. Carnie's or the Hyg.. They will make a lot of honey and will overwinter well with treatments, fwiw!


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

I'm going to resurrect this old thread.

I ordered a couple Italians from Olivarez. Their service was great.

They arrive on Tuesday and I'll be using the Vanderpool Technique to introduce the queens. 

I'll let you know how they do.


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