# worst winter ever?



## David LaFerney

Apparently losses have been very high here in TN. I suspect that it is because our usual summer dearth started a month earlier than usual and there was little if any fall flow - on average we went into winter with hives that had been weakened by malnutrition. In other words bee keeper error in June and July.


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## Rick 1456

My conclusion here as well. It's like the dearth started and really never ended. I did not harvest honey and believed they would have more than sufficient honey for winter with the fall flow added. Nope. Lost a few before I caught it and fed dry sugar. 
Rick


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## Keith Jarrett

David LaFerney said:


> . I suspect that it is because our usual summer dearth started a month earlier than usual and there was little if any fall flow - on average we went into winter with hives that had been weakened by malnutrition. In other words bee keeper error in June and July.


David, very very well said!


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## squarepeg

very interesting cam, thanks for the report.

after three years of zero winter losses i had 33% this year. queen failure was the primary reason, but i don't know why they failed.

please keep us posted.


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## khaas15

I started with a single hive four years ago and went to two hives for the last three year, without a loss until this winter. Lost both hives....dang!


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## megakg9

Out of 45 colonys only 24 left and some ain't looking to good


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## wildbranch2007

camero7 said:


> Says many producers are in the 50% loss range.
> 
> He also was reporting that poor queens and drone layers appear to have around 50% of their sperm sterile. He is continuing this research about why this is happening. Doesn't have an answer but believes this is one of the causes of bee loss.


when he says producers, I assume he means queen producers?


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## Stromnessbees

.
*Worst colony losses ever and largest area ever treated with neonicotinoid pesticides. *

Rather than assuming that beekeepers have lost their skills - many of them after generations of doing well - I think the above correlation is quite telling.


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## jmgi

I'm at about 50% loss, at this point I believe it is due to mites weakening the winter bee population down to a small cluster, which then perished because they couldn't move to new food. There could be something to the malnutrition thing with me also, as we had a very poor fall flow. John


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## camero7

wildbranch2007 said:


> when he says producers, I assume he means queen producers?


Wrong word. He was talking about bees in general, not queen producers.


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## wheeler88

So far I've lost 2 hives which I believe was due to mites as I did not treat last fall. I will be treating in the future. This wierd weather is another problem 50s and 60s a week ago and now more snow on ground than all winter..


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## SilverBack

We polled our club members here in SE MN at our Feb club meeting about survival to date. At that point we had an overall survival rate pegged at 53%. That was across about 25 different Beeks with a wide range of experience, from newbees to grizzled veterans.

That figure surely will be lower when all is said and done.


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## camero7

Stromnessbees said:


> .
> *Worst colony losses ever and largest area ever treated with neonicotinoid pesticides. *
> 
> Rather than assuming that beekeepers have lost their skills - many of them after generations of doing well - I think the above correlation is quite telling.


You are so predictable... assertion without ANY proof.


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## Don'tWorryBeeHappy

It's snowing, so I'm stuck inside this morn and was reading this thread. And was curious what kind of over-winter problems others had. Think anyone would fill out this survey?

http://www.esurveyspro.com/Survey.aspx?id=39bea4dd-a9be-4c82-b249-631e45a8d9b4


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## David LaFerney

Stromnessbees - If you mean me, I'm not asserting that anyone has lost their skills, but that we did what we always do, but the weather did something different. We failed to adapt. I *think* that the effects of agg chemicals are also significant, probably extremely so - I just think that the losses this year coincide with the unusual weather and associated dearth last summer.

Keith - Thanks. I also suspect that the hives that are left in good shape now were probably the most adept robbers last summer.


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## beeup

Started with 18 in the fall. Checked them about 6 weeks ago and was down to 9. I had the same experience as jmji. Small clusters that couldn't move around for food.


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## soupcan

We over winter & 2010 to 2011 losses were around 15%.
2011 to 2012 winter loss was below 4%.
As of today our winter loss is close to 50%.
We start our winter loss count about 1 month after we finish pulling the last honey off & begin to feed the bees to heavy them up for winter. 
All hives have insulated winter covers installed along with a 15# pound candy board for safe keeping thru the winter.
The honey flow started last April & lasted untill the middle of September.
We made a good honey crop, probably a crop that ranks up there with one of the better ones in the past 30 years. So the bees were in real good shape.
The bee loss are among new queens, ( 4 different breeders ) old queens, & cells that we raised here in Nebr.
Queen people were telling me in early January as to all the early calls for queens & packages and to all the losses already this early.
So now that leaves us with one heck of a bill for testing of bees, pollen, wax, & honey
that I figured would show nothing when I sent the samples in for testing. 
And that's just what the tests showed, nothing, nothing other than how clean the tests were. 
So I am getting old and also they tell me I have forgot how to keep bees & or I no longer remember how to get them in shape for winter.
I always tell my son if this deal was easy everyone would keep bees & yet I have seen that deal come & go a good many times in my lifetime with bees!
Something has got to change & change before there is nothing left us to change!!!


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## beemandan

soupcan said:


> As of today our winter loss is close to 50%.


Do you have an opinion as to what caused the loss?


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## soupcan

I have my ideas & thoughts but can not prove any of it!
Darn tough to prove when the tests are negitive!


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## papar

squarepeg said:


> very interesting cam, thanks for the report.
> 
> after three years of zero winter losses i had 33% this year. queen failure was the primary reason, but i don't know why they failed.
> 
> please keep us posted.


I lost about the same percentage and for the exact Same reason. Every hive with failed queen had a fair amount of bees left with unfertilized cells in the middle of the frame. In some live hives I could see a few cells with unfertilizer in the worker brood-looks like failing queen. I 've never seen it so consistantly throughout the hives. Needless to say, I'll have to re-queen yearly to minimize this problem. 

I tried to reason out the cause and can't say for sure. Last year, I did have heavier then normal mite loads which started earlier, do to the non-existant winter. I had to treat w/formic 2X's. 
I migrate between PA and SC so queens don't get much of a break.
I had higher then expected mite loads already this spring so I did a knock down treatment in mid-Jan(sounds early but the weather was warmer then average by at least a couple weeks at that point) before making nucs in March.
Of course, poor nutrition or poor mating conditions seem to play a big part too.

Please post if you find the cause for your losses!


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## cdevier

So far, only one dead-out in 12 hives. I know we came through one of the worse droughts last summer that I can remember. So I put 15 # candy boards on all hives. Two weeks ago, some hives only had a few pounds left.


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## squareandcompasses

If hives arnt going forward, they are going backward. I know of numerous operations losing 60% or more, one even lost about 60k hives. Pesticides seem to make hives very sensitive to virus vectored by mites even at a low mite count. Keep on top of the mites and feed when you need to.


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## D Semple

I have 1 of 4 yards that's struggling hard with about 50% losses. 

The area surrounding the one yard had no fall flowers to speak of because of the drought and even though I left the bees heavy with honey I believe now that they were short on pollen in the fall and didn't raise enough fall and winter bees. 

My other 3 yards combined that had decent fall forage I have only lost 1 hive to date.

From now on I check bee bread reserves as well as honey reserves in the early fall.


Don


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## Michael Palmer

papar said:


> Last year, I did have heavier then normal mite loads which started earlier, do to the non-existant winter.
> I had to treat w/formic 2X's.


Do you think it could have been the 2x treatments with formic?


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## kilocharlie

I'd strongly suggest everybody with losses pack up about 100 to 150 of the dead bees according to the Bee Lab's instructions and send them in.

Include a short description of the problem along with your name, address, phone number, or email. 
For additional information, contact Bart Smith by phone (301) 504-8821 or email [email protected]
A comb sample should be at least 2" x 2" and contain as much dead or discolored brood as possible. NO HONEY SHOULD BE PRESENT IN THE SAMPLE. Wrap loosely in a paper towel, then paper bag, then cardboard box, NO PLASTIC, NO FOIL, NO WAX PAPER, NO TIN, NO GLASS.

Send sample to:

Bee Disease Diagnosis
Bee Research Laboratory
Building 476, Room 204
Beltsville Agricultural Research Center-East
Beltsville, MD 20705

Send at least 100 bees, and if possible, send bees that are dying or died recently. DECAYED BEES ARE NOT SATISFACTORY FOR EXAMINATION. Soak bees in 70% ethyl, methyl, or isopropyl alcohol as soon as possible after collection, and packed in leak-proof containers. UPS, USPS, and Fed-Ex do not accept shipments of alcohol. Just prior to mailing off samples, pour off all excess alcohol to meet shipping requirements.

Hope this helps. I'd further suggest setting up an observer hive or three, and watching very closely what is going on. Also, it appears that August 15th is the deadline for final mite treatments before wintering in many areas (interpreted as August first!)

From the postings, the combination of a prolonged nectar and/or pollen dearth, mites (even low count), and pesticides is a killer combination. Non-conclusion: Feed syrup + pollen substitute + fondant board, use IPM methods with tolerant bees, and keep your breeder yard stationary and as far as possible from the crops. Also ant-proof your colonies as they eat the mites out of your SBB, falsely reducing your counts.


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## wildbranch2007

papar said:


> I tried to reason out the cause and can't say for sure. Last year, I did have heavier then normal mite loads which started earlier, do to the non-existant winter. I had to treat w/formic 2X's.
> 
> I had higher then expected mite loads already this spring so I did a knock down treatment in mid-Jan(sounds early but the weather was warmer then average by at least a couple weeks at that point) before making nucs in March.


You treated with MAQS in Oct., what did you treat with in mid-Jan? Is Dave seeing the same problems? Since we had a really good golden rod flow late and the hives looked good in the fall and you aren't that far from some of my hives, I'll check them when it gets warmer.


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## soupcan

Intresting Kilocharlie!
Beltsville did not want a thing to do with my samples & they told me to contact a USDA lab in South Carolina.
I asked if they wanted any of the samples in alcohol and was told " no " 
I asked if this would harm the samples as the alcohol would taint the samples & was told " yes "
The few dead bees we could find out of the hundreds of dead outs were kept on ice & sent overnite to the lab in a cooler.
I have yet to find anyone that has sent samples in this year that have turned up with anything in there samples that caused there losses.


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## papar

Michael Palmer said:


> Do you think it could have been the 2x treatments with formic?


I've been using the MQS formic strips, just one instead of two. Maybe the formic did make a difference but I've never seen that much queen failure.

Mike- I used the MQS for mid-Jan, it was in the 70's at the time


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## wildbranch2007

papar;904067
Mike- I used the MQS for mid-Jan said:


> We have some hives that we used one strip and 10 days later a second strip, and pete used the recommended treatment on his, and both were done around the middle of Oct.
> so if we see the same issues in those hives, mite be a clue.


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## Michael Bush

They are using the same neonics they've been using for the last decade or so. The new thing, though, is the fungicides that are getting popular. Bee bread needs fungus to ferment so the bees can digest it to raise long lived bees for winter. I think fungicides are a more likely culprit.


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## camero7

Michael Bush said:


> They are using the same neonics they've been using for the last decade or so. The new thing, though, is the fungicides that are getting popular. Bee bread needs fungus to ferment so the bees can digest it to raise long lived bees for winter. I think fungicides are a more likely culprit.


I agree and there are some studies coming out about how these fungicides are synergistic with all pesticides and some miticides.


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## MikeTheBeekeeper

I lost almost 50% of my hives. I thought I would lose a lot more as many were only 1 frame strong. I took them to the Almond fields anyway along with the hives I rented out and it seems that helped. I went out and checked them today and they've all grown to about nuc size. 

The worse I've seen is a beekeeper nearby that had 90 hives and now only 8, in rather poor condition (not acceptable for Almond pollination).


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## benstung

in WI and MN the Ag Co-ops used 3x more pesticide then ever before. pretty simple to figure out


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## soupcan

Ask them as to how many tons of fungicide used in the past 5 years and the amount of increase in those products per year, if they will even talk about it.


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## Keith Jarrett

Yep... doom & goom boo hoo hoo hoo


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## soupcan

Keith
Please explain


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## Keith Jarrett

soupcan said:


> Keith
> Please explain


SC, you can roll back the calendar's or Beesource, ABJ go back to early spring and find the same broken record.


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## soupcan

So Keith tell me if I am wrong with the following assement.
Your theory is that the the 100's of thousands of dead bee hives in the country this fall & winter are due mainly to operator error?


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## Keith Jarrett

100% correct, well said

p.s. it's not theory it's fact


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## Ian

people hate having blame laid on their lap


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## jim lyon

Keith: You best stay in beekeeping. You would never make it in politics.


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## New Ky Beekeeper

I have lost 1/3 of my healthy hives. All due to starving. I didn't put candy on and so I own it. I don't count the two hives that was not doing well.......


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## Ian

starving is a hard one, Im getting some of that too


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## Keith Jarrett

jim lyon said:


> Keith: You best stay in beekeeping. You would never make it in politics.


I know Jimmy, not doing my sub sales any help either. Gives shooting yourself in the foot a whole new meaning. lol

Soupcan, I have a freind that grades bees for three big almond brokers the names you would know, So I talked with him last week, he says the SAME keepers that have good bees last four years have good bees this years, and the same goes for lousy bees.
He says the lousy bees you try to crack the boxes the get a better look at the grade and they haven't been broken apart in quite some time. So SoupCan, it's not an opinion, these bees have come to Cali from mid west to east coast .
Bottom line it's the keepers that make the difference.


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## Keith Jarrett

jim lyon said:


> Keith: You best stay in beekeeping.


Jimmy, I shouldn't go to any bee meetings either, they would stick me under the bus and drive off. lol


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## jim lyon

Keith Jarrett said:


> Jimmy, I shouldn't go to any bee meetings either, they would stick me under the bus and drive off. lol


Be particularly careful at meetings where folks are driving Hummerbees around in the parking lot.


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## Flyer Jim

Keith Jarrett said:


> Jimmy, I shouldn't go to any bee meetings either, they would stick me under the bus and drive off. lol


So that's why you don't show up.


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## DRUR

I have lost none over winter, but did have one that was queenless but still had ample bee population. I went into winter with 9 and have now split to 17. I started feeding to stimulate brood rearing mid January. 

I took 16 colonies to cotton mid summer. Had lost down to 13 when I went to retrieve them. All had very low populations. Before I could get them ready for winter towards the end of October I was down to 9.

I am small cell treatment free except screened bottom boards.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


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## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> he says the SAME keepers that have good bees last four years have good bees this years, and the same goes for lousy bees.
> He says the lousy bees you try to crack the boxes the get a better look at the grade and they haven't been broken apart in quite some time.


Keith, what the beekeeping industry is going through right now reminds me of what happened to the grain industry 15 years ago. You know, every industry has its problem, and the grain industry was/and is facing much the dire straights as the beekeeping industry is facing now. (And dont get me started on the cattle business )
But 15 years ago we started to see a divide among farmers who were able to adapt to the on coming challenges and manage the issues accordingly to who did not see the problems until it was too late and would not adapt because of an old school approach to farming.
Those farmers who didnt adapt disappeared as they lost interest and sold off the land. 
The ones who are farming today are right up to date with the latest breeding programs, disease control, tech , and sustainability. 

Like I have been preaching on this forum loud from the roof tops, farming is business, every problem can be managed, got to know whats going on and react to the conditions. Beekeeping is just as much as a business as everything else, why many rely on nature to guide them around is baffling to me. We are working this industry completely away from natures way, yet many figure they can get away with not paying attention to whats happening in the hives.


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## soupcan

Keith,
I find it interesting that you produce a specialty product that you sell to beekeepers and then inturn do not attend such meetings to promote your wares.
I would think that would be an easy sell for your product?


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## Keith Jarrett

Soupcan, other than Beesource I do no advertizing. My deep beliefs are, the keepers that have purchase my product with there hard earned money, they are the judge & jury of my product, I don't want to hassle keepers at a bee meeting sounding like a used car sales man. The product has grown strickly by word of mouth.

P.S. the judge & jury have been very good to me, the product & the bees it produces speaks for itself, the last thing it needs is Keith's "straight pipe" messing everything up.


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## huffmanbeekeeping

After 2 winters with zero losses. I lost 9 out of 11 this winter.


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## Keith Jarrett

Huffman, do you feel last summer & fall flows were any different than the two years before that you had zero losses ?


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## huffmanbeekeeping

Last year I also lost 3 hives before winter to starvation because I took to much honey off. So yes the flow wasn't as good as the previous 2 years.


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian said:


> people hate having blame laid on their lap


some people hate having "the truth" laid on their lap.


http://youtu.be/1H-Y7MAASkg


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## Ian

Now if you could make that song play when you open the post, that would be cool


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## BeekeepingIsGood

So far we have 22 of 24 survive. Of the two that died, it was fairly obvious at least one of them was going to have a tough time as it was low population(result of a failed experiment.)

So that puts us at 8% loss. I don't think we've ever been over 15%. 

Our bees are a good distance from industrial ag. No re-queening unless queenless. Do our best not to feed (maybe just 3 colonies got a light feed in the fall.), Formic if counts are high(1 hive is 2 winters no formic). Ventilation boxes with straw on top. We had a poor honey year last year and only got a light harvest.


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## shannonswyatt

Keith Jarrett said:


> NUTRA-BEE feed supplements



I thought Keith was going to say the problem was not enough NUTRA-BEE feed supplements!


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## delber

WellI'm a fairly new beekeeper so take this for what it's worth. I did notice that this past summer (July / August) that there seemed to be very few drones in my hives but I didn't know why. Now I understand that there was a lack of pollen. I was feeding some hives seeking to help them through, and one hive even died as I was feeding it late fall. Not due to mites, but due to lack of pollen. 2 hives that I lost this winter were due to not enough ventilation. I had dry sugar on top, and it was soaked and dripping down on them. So I think I can say I agree with Keith saying at least for me it was beekeeper error. Not obviously on purpose, but none the less my fault. (Currently I'm at about 55% loss.) It's my job to know what's going on and deal with it. The problem is just not knowing. I don't remember reading about a lack of pollen in the summer. I still saw some bringing it in, but didn't check the combs. It may be that they wern't able to bring enough in, or it may be that they brought in "bad pollen". I'm not sure, but I also have learned from a hard winter. I was hoping to have a great honey crop this year, but it seems that I'll be short again. Well we'll see what swarm season brings.


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## kilocharlie

soupcan - I see one of my posts is missing. I said in it that one of the brokers for almond growers had said that only one guy (a buddy of mine) came in above estimates and he averaged 14 frames of brood. Lots of guys reporting around 50% losses all over the country, few had strong colonies, many under 8 frames of bees (not brood).

Also, lots of people saying there was not much honey made in 2012. The only guy I heard of making good honey poundage (tonnage actually) is up in North Dakota. I'm sure there are others, but lots of complaints.

I also said that one of the big operators out here suspects that the problem is likely a new pesticide. He is a second-generation beek', and migrates between Southern California and Idaho, where he cooperates with a company from ND. Rumor is that he combined a lot of weak colonies like package bees and re-queened and it seems to be working so far.

Stromness' post #9, Michael Bush's post #31, and benstung's post #34 all suspect pesticides and/or fungicides. The combination of stesses of poisons, mites, viruses, poor nectar/pollen flows, low honey stores, and beekeepers not adjusting to the situation appears deadly.

Interesting how your analysis went at Beltsville...I wonder how that came about. Did they check for pesticides? I wonder how your frozen bees compare to bees preserved in alcohol? That seems like a good idea, I'd have probably sent them both anyways. The significant thing seems to be many dead-outs with no bees in them - which doesn't rule out pesticides. Negative tests don't rule out pesticides nor fungicides - if the bees you sent in were ones that stayed in the hive.

I'll talk to him when he gets back, and try to get back to you. Best of luck in the meantime.


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## soupcan

Gota remember Kilocharlie it's because we have almost all forgot how to take care of our bees.
The wording "actions resulting from external peril" does not at all belong in this topic what so ever. 
We made a good honey crop. Probably one of the last in my life time with all the pasture & alfalfa that got sprayed & tore up in the past year.
Several hundred deeps ( 2nd story ) full of honey for feed use this season from dead outs.
Beltsville did not do our testing. Beltsville had me send my samples to a USDA lab in North Carolina.
Frozen or cold bees is what they wanted & I suspect after I asked the question that if the bees in alcohol would create a washing action & dulete the testing.
Negative means that the spectagraph testing did not show anything unusual. As a side note the lab stated that the tests were very very clean for keeping bees in & along row crop production.
Record amounts of queen & package sales & with a good many turned away as the producers can not keep up with orders.
I have no answers at this point only if you have bees that are still alive your probably darn lucky!
Or if it's not considered luck ya musta put a extra 20 in the collection plate on Sunday.


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## Keith Jarrett

soupcan said:


> Gota remember Kilocharlie it's because we have almost all forgot how to take care of our bees.
> I have no answers at this point only if you have bees that are still alive your probably darn lucky!
> Or if it's not considered luck ya musta put a extra 20 in the collection plate on Sunday.


Lucky is only good in Reno. Some hard working keepers make there own luck.


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## soupcan

Sorry!!!
I forgot the lazy part!


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## Ian

ha ha, you two are too much !


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## kilocharlie

My gripe is that luck, laziness (or lack of it), or the existence of God (haha - no opinions here, as the 20 bucks would imply) do not answer the mystery here, and it appears to be widespread. Sort of begs the question, what are we not testing for?

Widespread poor beekeeping skills appear as a bubble as many new beeks like myself have joined the ranks less than 10 years ago, and Keith says his broker amigos can spot the skill level upon opening the box. That this is skewed along the lines of experience and ability is to be expected. When the 30+ year veterans and 4th+ generation beeks are scratching their heads, well that is time to raise the panic level to DEFCON 3 and get to work researching, trying out well-selected strategies, and even mix some off-speed screwballs into the repertoire. Find something that works, and be expedient about it.

A high rate of queen rejection, a high rate of "accepted queen but rapid supercedure", and a high winter kill or other cause of loss are all serious of a concerns, but each data point in the mass has its rhyme, reason and answer while the final tally represents grouped reasons as percentage.

My luck ran out before the mystery set in. I had a sudden, unexpected move while I was very sick. I was forced to move bees alone while I was gasping for air, took too long stapling screen onto hives that usually stay in one place, transferring bees into them. I kept having to lie down on the dirt road and suck in air. A very cold night turned into day, bees were stacked into a trailer, then it got very hot, and I was in no shape to drive. By the time they were on the new location and unloaded, most were dead. Yet, I am alarmed when other beekeepers' losses are so high all over. Something is happening, and it is probably not just one thing. I know I need to get better at this.

Dr. Susan Cobey has been heard recommending that we now use screened bottom boards full-time and administer powdered sugar dusting weekly, among other recommendations. If pesticides are highly sensitizing bees to mite-transmitted viruses, we have to start looking at mites differently, and it looks like we need to do so especially carefully on years with poor mid-, late-summer, and fall flows.

It seems as though we probably ought to keep half our colonies in isolation from crops (difficult with a lack of suitable habitat in some areas) and use half for such risky activities as migratory pollination, which implies a lot of teaming up with other beek's while halving profits, just to keep our colonies numbers up. If your methods are intensive, this is not going to be easy.


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## Ian

drought = poor forage = mal nutrition 
mites, virus, nosema, pesticides 

to say its a management issue does not imply miss management. We just need to figure a way to manage all these issues, right? 
cant say we dont know whats going on when we have all the reason in frount of us.


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## megakg9

I'm in ca so I'm stuck in virus central can't do much about it, I'm hurting bad this year and I thought o might of reached 100 by the end of 2013


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## soupcan

Rather silly I feel to treat this as a management or for that thought a mismanagement issue untill we can isolate the real problem.
With that said I have no idea as to were we even start after rereading my USDA test reports for it seems the 5th time or so!
Then to make matters worse is the fact that some outfits are having little or no problems.


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## Solomon Parker

kilocharlie said:


> Keith says his broker amigos can spot the skill level upon opening the box.


I would love to hear about how that's done. I really wonder what that might look like.


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## kilocharlie

As I re-read back through the posts, Dsemple post #24, Michael Bush's post #31, and Camero7's post #32 seem to be on to the "failed queen" thing - a lack of pollen made them all quit rearing brood. That's not queen failure, not unfertilizer, and I suspect that MB is close - the fungicides are a contributing factor to the pollen's suitability (or lack of it). They're protein starved, pollen or no pollen, if they've been contaminated with fungicides, so the colonies contracted going into winter. Colony strength should be the answer in this situation. Undetected, it could have lead to many of the dead-outs with few bees in the boxes.

If this is so, David LaFerney and Keith Jarrett are likely very close - we either didn't notice and/or failed to adapt. The signal was the weather pattern change.

Drought is no longer drought - it is now combined stress, with all the other factors such as Ian mentions. Mites tend to be tied in - someone mentioned the mites came on strong with an early spring. Viruses are related to mites. Pesticides tend to greatly exacerbate mite and virus sensitivity.

I think I should consider dropping pollination altogether and focus on organic honey as far from farms as I can.


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## Ian

does beekeeping away from farms keep you away from bee diseases and environmental stresses ?


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## kilocharlie

Ian said:


> does beekeeping away from farms keep you away from bee diseases and environmental stresses ?


It should tend to reduce exposure to ag chemicals, some of which are suspected by many to be an exacerbating factor in viruses that didn't show up very often before the arrival of the mites and show up a lot more often now.

It should reduce exposure to mites, and probably other bee diseases in heavily mobile-bee-pollinated areas if your bees don't show these maladies presently.

Environmental stresses are sometimes *VERY* local, sometimes not.


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## Ian

So in places like Hawaii, where these fields of corn do not exist and agriculture is limited, 
are they seeing healthier bees and are the beekeepers coping with better survivals ?

A place like Hawaii would tend to have a reduced exposure to ag chemicals, so that exacerbating factor would not be a factor and the bees would better handle virus and mites, right?


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## shannonswyatt

Well, even in a residential area you still have exposure to chemicals. Truegreen, Chemlawn, etc.


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## Keith Jarrett

kilocharlie said:


> Keith says his broker amigos can spot the skill level upon opening the box.


That's an easy one, look at how the keeper has kept the bees, ie, is there weight on the hives, are they nice tight boxes with little exposed holes & cracks, is the sub feed on top or in the middle boxes, are the lids & frames scracted for a tight seals, if inside feeders have they been reversed, if they are inside feeders look if they used corn syrup, are the bees near the feed or are they on one side of the box, is there much "dry comb". These are all small tails of the hive not one is a smoking gun but rather an indication of how they have been kepted.


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian said:


> drought = poor forage = mal nutrition
> mites, virus, nosema, pesticides
> 
> to say its a management issue does not imply miss management. We just need to figure a way to manage all these issues, right?
> cant say we dont know whats going on when we have all the reason in frount of us.


Ian, very well said. Right to the point, really pretty simple.


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## David LaFerney

Keith - Just to be sure...

weight on the hives - Weight = good
are they nice tight boxes with little exposed holes & cracks - tight = good
is the sub feed on top - top = good
sub in the middle boxes = better
are the lids & frames scracted for a tight seals - ?? 
if inside feeders have they been reversed - ?? 
if they are inside feeders look if they used corn syrup - Corn syrup = Bad? 
are the bees near the feed - good
or are they on one side of the box - bad? 
is there much "dry comb" - bad?

I know you are naming some best practices, but I'm not entirely sure which.


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## delber

David LaFerney said:


> Keith - Just to be sure...
> 
> are the lids & frames scracted for a tight seals - ??
> if inside feeders have they been reversed - ??
> if they are inside feeders look if they used corn syrup - Corn syrup = Bad?
> or are they on one side of the box - bad?
> is there much "dry comb" - bad?
> 
> I know you are naming some best practices, but I'm not entirely sure which.


These are also my questions. Keith please expand if you would.


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## Keith Jarrett

David LaFerney said:


> Keith - Just to be sure...
> 
> is the sub feed on top - top = good
> are the lids & frames scracted for a tight seals - ??
> if inside feeders have they been reversed - ??
> if they are inside feeders look if they used corn syrup - Corn syrup = Bad?
> or are they on one side of the box - bad?
> is there much "dry comb" - bad?.


winter time sub in the middle
scracted for tight seal
feeders should be in lower box in winter feeding
corn syrup bad idea
dry comb bad.
hope this helps David


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## oblib

Pretty sure he means scraped clean so all parts fit tight and seal up.


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## festus

i started keeping bees 30 some years ago, back then almost all of my dead hives were from starvation in the winter and i knew it was my fault, with all of the problems today i cant even tell if its my fault, we rarely ever had to feed, and giving them pollen sub i didnt even know was available, and back then i was young and would pull two deeps of honey per hive, and we rented to orchards (lot of small orchards back then) and still didnt have any problems like we have now.
this year i had 2 hives that all of the bees were gone, they went into winter good, still honey in the hive, i have never seen this before, its all getting very strange.
sometimes i dont think it matters how you keep them, just like the farmer who grows his own watermelon he plants double so if the cold kills the first batch hes got another batch ready, and it seems to be the same with bees, go into winter with double what you want to come out with, seems like a waste but it seems to be the way it works


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## kilocharlie

Does "sub feed" mean "pollen substitute"?


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## Chip Euliss

Just got my numbers back from the almond pollination. I lost 10% over the winter and the survivors are boomers.


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## Keith Jarrett

Chip Euliss said:


> I lost 10% over the winter and the survivors are boomers.


Nice to hear that good news Chip, I won't keep you from splitting & shaking.


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## Chip Euliss

Keith Jarrett said:


> Nice to hear that good news Chip, I won't keep you from splitting & shaking.


Thanks Keith. If they keep me busy enough, it MAY keep me out of trouble. At least for a little while!!!!


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## EastSideBuzz

kilocharlie said:


> does "sub feed" mean "pollen substitute"?


 yes.


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## lakebilly

I lost better than 50% so far. out of 30-35 hives lost most had stores. survivors appear to have enough to get through the next few weeks but I gave them more to be sure. 
I caught 13 swarms last year & they seemed to be strong & well supplied. Only two made it through the winter. here in NY seemed to be a long winter & not looking like it's gonna be over anytime soon.
Most of my overwintered nucs in 5 frame equipment seem to be in good shape lost maybe 4 of18 

Hope to get a response on a new thead about rebuilding numbers.


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## soupcan

Lakebilly, sorry to hear of your loss but it seems to be more of the norm now a days than not.
I sure hope you have not fallen old & forgetful as many of us beeks have in the past year or so & no longer remember how to keep our bees alive.
Worse yet I hope you have not fallen into my class of lazy beekeepers that just think my bees should take car of themselves.
I am thinking of purchasing those advertised t-shirts that read on the front " I Used To Care " & then doing some custom work to them.
PM me if you are intrested!


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## Ian

soupcan, after everything that has been said over the last few months you still don't get it. 
The old days are gone, diseases and pesticides are here to stay, deal with it and quit whining


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## lakebilly

soupcan,

I take a very serious approach to a very large investment that I made to this venture. I am on this forum to educate myself to that end. I appreciate your note. I would invite anyone to work w/me @ my remodeling bizz, my farm, or my beez (that I work 95% of the time by myself) & then wonder if I ever take the lazy approach. Not reading too much into your note, just saying.


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## soupcan

Sorry Ian, did not mean to offend you!
My point is simple & that is how did this " chemical thing " get to this point???
All I hear is " no testing required " as to the effects on bees!
Yet here in the USA it can take 5, 7 & maybe 10 years of testing and proof that a new drug is safe for use on or in humans.
Animal vet medications can take almost as long.
Think about this, next time you hear of some one using a fungicide ask them as to what percent of there application was on " control acres "


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## Ian

ha ha ha no offence soupcan, ( I know your tongue is in your cheek )

what are you going to do about this chemical thing ?


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## soupcan

What am I going to do???
Simple, the co-ops we do business with & the farmers that we have bees on I ask them ( very politely )
if they use fungicide? And when they answer yes I ask why & as to where the test acres are at to prove that there input $$$$ are a wise investment. Most reply that the ag people recomend it & after a minute or two they all seem to come to the same conclusion that they may be throwing money to the wind.
That said for the most part almost all of these farmers do infact worry about the bees & don't want to harm them in any way.
My main concern is what we will have for problems 5 to 10 years down the road from all the junk that we are using to plant a crop today.
My wife & I grew up in a river valley that has one of the highest rates of cancers in the state.
My dad passed a number of years ago from a cancer that is so rare it really is only found in Afrcia.
The questions they asked is if dad served there or was near there in WW-II.
Ian I not a tree hugger by any means but I am really scared that this chemical deal is already over the top so to speak.
Most of the beeks on here have done this deal for long enough now to tell when the bees are a hurting & things are just not right in the hive.
The bees are a hurting and Ian if your not having any problems, man good luck to ya brother as I am afraid your a going to need it in the long run!
The scramble is on for package bees & queens not to mention singles & nucs.
And the losses are just not just from bad beekeeping.
They phone is also a ringing for a small lots of honey, every one seems scared!


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## JRG13

soup, you hit a touchy subject. I was watching a documentary and it was claiming insurance companies push neonics etc.. as well and won't insure crops that don't use them. Heck of a system isn't it, forcing farmers to spend money.....


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## Ian

fungicides are here to stay. 
crop protection is big business,


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## Beeslave

USDA admits to exterminating birds,bees and crops

http://fracturedparadigm.com/2013/03/25/usda-admits-exterminating-birds-crops-and-bees/


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## Nick Noyes

Ian said:


> fungicides are here to stay.
> crop protection is big business,


Crop pollination is also big businees. Always keep this in mind.


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## SusanM

I'm a new beek here....and read this thread....thanks to all for your input, knowledge, insight, etc. I had a great strong hive going into the winter, but in the last month lost it to ????? No signs of mites, disease, anything, except for the lack of pollen/protein which we seemed to be short of this fall. Folks in my area reported the same thing in regards to huge % of hive losses, and part of our county is big agriculturally speaking. Where I live, though, it was cold, cold, cold for way too long.
Thanks again to all...

Susan


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## JD's Bees

Finally warmed up enough to check half the hives last week and have 15% loss so far.


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## squarepeg

susan, not enough info. any bees left? find the dead queen? any honey left? do you how to see mite feces on the brood frames?

jd, not bad considering the rough winter. way to go!


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## Ian

JD's Bees said:


> Finally warmed up enough to check half the hives last week and have 15% loss so far.


nice ! I see on the weather map you guys are enjoying some nice bee weather,


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## wildbranch2007

papar;904067
Mike- I used the MQS for mid-Jan said:


> wildbranch2007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have some hives that we used one strip and 10 days later a second strip, and pete used the recommended treatment on his, and both were done around the middle of Oct.
> so if we see the same issues in those hives, mite be a clue.
> 
> 
> 
> I know it took awhile but finally could check the hives we treated with MAQS.
> The yard had 20 hives, the 10 treated with MAQS lost 50%, the 10 treated with Apiguard are all alive and doing very good.
> so bob's hives 71 lost 12 about a 17% loss, exclude the MAQ hives 61 lost 7 around 10% loss.
> I can't get into some of my yards yet but checked 76 lost 1 starved, all Apiguard
> now I owe bob 5 hives as it was my idea to try the MAQS on his hives?
> we also checked Pete's hives but I don't know the #'s so you might want to check with him.
Click to expand...


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## SusanM

My hive went into the winter with gobs of bees (carniolans), two year-old queen, two deeps: 1 brood, 1 honey; and one western super: all honey.
I insulated it with foamboard with a vent in the rear top of the hive. About 3-4 times this winter I had to wipe out the bottom of the hive of dead bees.
Each time I wiped out about two cups of bees. On good days the bees would come out and fly around. At the end of January, I put bee candy on the 
inner cover because I feared they might be getting hungary, and there were lots of bees coming up throught the inner cover's hole and out the vent.
But a month ago things started to slow down. Three weeks ago the weather was really nice here, so I popped the top and took a look see..... and 
there were hardly any bees left....about a hundred plus the queen-all walking around. Some of the bee candy was gone, but 99% of the honey in the western was still there, most in the second super was still there, and bottom super was plugged with dead bees. 

I took off the bottom super so I could clean it out and left the other too on. Ten days later all was quiet. I popped the top again and found the rest of them dead with the queen-in a small cluster.  Not terribly surprised, though. It looked liked starvation...bee bottoms sticking out of cells. Weeks before I had scored several of the frames with honey so as to help them get to it. No signs of mites (had treated hive in the fall), but possibly
dysentery...because we had several long cold spells 0 - 20 degrees for 2-3 weeks with 2 ft. of snow. No mite poop on frames, no beetles, no moths.
Now...no bees. Tracheal mites? May be.

It gets pretty cold here....late spring, early fall, long cold wet/dry winters.


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## squarepeg

sorry to hear about that susan. sounds like more of a dwindle than a sudden collapse. mite treatmeants aren't 100% effective, and nosema ceranae doesn't always show dysentery. there's been a lot of talk about viruses lately. 

was all of that real honey or syrup honey? 

sounds like you did everything right, have you thought about having the dead bees analyzed?


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## SusanM

I forgot to mention that it seems the queen was failing in the end....in the western super I discovered evidence of laying workers...about 20 or so cells with two eggs in them. I don't know if that happened before or after the queen died.
The western super has 6 full frames of capped honey.  which I think is still good and I'll keep. The second deep had two partial frames of capped honey but mostly syrup and empty cells. The brood box was mostly empty with a little syrup, some of the corners had capped honey. There was very little if any pollen cells in the hive. I've ordered a new package of bees and I think I'm going to purge most of the foundation/frames and start over with new. I know it is a crap shoot either way....new bees and possibly disease coming with them, or my hives being diseased and infecting the new bees. So starting on an equal playing field seems the best thing right now. I'll have to analyze my frames/foundation this week to see which ones to keep and which to pitch. I did save some of the last of the dead bees. I don't know yet if I'll have them analyzed.

What is really odd, yesterday the wild mongrel bees showed up and tried to rob my dead hive. They usually don't show up until June around here. But somehow they survived this weird winter. Go figure. The mosquitoes  and hummingbirds appeared too, all on the same day.....


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## squarepeg

sounds like there's at least part of your answer susan, queen failure. it was the reason for several losses in my yard this past winter.

what i meant by honey vs. syrup was whether the stores are from natural forage or feeding sugar water.


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## delber

This may have been one of my problems also this past fall, however if there's no pollen in the hive I also found this to be a reason of collapse. a couple hives had no pollen and I was seeing that the drone populations in my hives dwindle significantly to the point of about non existant come the fall. Lack of pollen can be a reason for them "thinking" that the queen is bad and seeking to replace. Just a thought.


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## SusanM

I hadn't fed the bees sugar water since early October and that was one fill up of a one gallon feeder. Perhaps the "honey" did not have time to ferment properly before the coldest weather hit....


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## kilocharlie

SusanM - was there any pollen in the hive, or was it all gone?


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## SusanM

There was hardly any pollen left....under 20 cells for two deeps and one western.....

How much pollen should there be in the hive going into winter? And, how do we encourage them to get more? Do we supplement?


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## Keith Jarrett

food for thought, the avg hive consumes 100-125lbs of pollen a year.


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## shannonswyatt

Holly cow! A whole frame feels like it doesn't even weighs a pound!


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## delber

Susan, Most likely you now know the problem. They died from no protein. Yes if you need to you'll have to supplement their pollen. I realized the same for my hives this winter and the first opportunity I put a patty in each hive early Feb. Now they're bringing in pollen about 3 of 4 bees coming back have pollen. So I'm not concerned now as when I inspected yesterday they were storing it meaning that they have enough for now. Definitely need to keen an eye on drone levels in the late summer early fall before they kick them out to make sure they have enough pollen. If there's no drones then they don't have enough pollen. That's what I've understood from my past year.


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## JRG13

We have a relatively short winter. A deep of pollen is what I like to see, typically it's the bottom box. Gotta watch it though, frames will go quick in fall if they're not bringing in much and then you go into winter light.


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## kilocharlie

SusanM - sorry I was away from cyberworld a few days...but I guess you get the idea. The big, sad lesson of 2012 was CHECK YOUR POLLEN LEVELS! They can't make winter without it. the bad news is that pesticides and fungicides are only getting worse and they greatly exacerbate the problem.

The answer to it all is lick your wounds, learn from it, and keep on beekeeping! Best of luck!


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## hilreal

soupcan said:


> I have my ideas & thoughts but can not prove any of it!
> Darn tough to prove when the tests are negitive!


What were they tested for, if I might ask?


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## soupcan

Just about every chemical & it's cousin the USDA machine is set up for.
I have had other beeks have the same testing done ( not sure were it was done ) with the same results.
We all agree it's a waste of time & money at this point!


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