# Self-sustaining beekeeping



## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Reading a previous thread on a lack of honey bees I can't help but think one way to help would be if more beekeepers practiced self-sustaining beekeeping. I'm not too sure how much this would help some of the bigger commercial beeks but if more beekeeping clubs of hobby beekeepers and even smaller commercial and sideline beekeepers were to become self sufficient more of the larger bee breeders would be able to more effectivley provide bees to the larger commercial beekeepers. With only buying queens if required for genetic diversity a group of beekeepers could band together to trade nucs and queens. Locally grown colonies would help but only if enough beekeepers participated. From what I've seen, the last thing beekeepers learn is how to make queens or produce nucs. I know of beekeepers who have been at it for many many years and still make sure to get their orders for packages in every November. There are a few clubs in my area that are trying. Its a thought.


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## giant pumpkin peep (Mar 14, 2009)

My plan is to start overwintering nucs and not have to buy anymore packages after this year. I hope everything goes well. If everything goes to plan for me (which it won't) I will go into winter with 4 hives, 5 single polystyrene nucs, and 2 double nucs.


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## raosmun (Sep 10, 2009)

giant pumpkin peep said:


> My plan is to start overwintering nucs and not have to buy anymore packages after this year. I hope everything goes well. If everything goes to plan for me (which it won't) I will go into winter with 4 hives, 5 single polystyrene nucs, and 2 double nucs.


Hi: great pumpkin. I'am in Findlay and would like to know how things go! This winter, so far has been a *****, **** or what ever, as you know - MISERABLE!!
I know what a nuc is, but why not start in a super? or do splits in the spring?
Just do not know. Have been doing this as a hobby for 6>8 years now. Still learning!!,Had 6 hivesin the fall, not looked yet, but there will be less come good weather (if it gets here). What type of bees do you have? Or "Mutts" as Mr. Bush puts it.
Thanks ahead of time.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

That's an interesting concept, and has a great deal of validity. Also cheaper on us beeks. I wonder, however, if the "big boys" have trouble getting all the packages, nucs, queens they need? Anyone know?


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## Buffalolick (Jan 26, 2010)

I agree it is very interesting idea. How many hives would you think a beek would need to be self sustaining? How many to produce each year, and in what way..splits and let rear own queen, make up nucs and introduce queens, something else? Clearly there are a lot of different possibilities, but how do you see a sideliner beek putting it into action?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

StevenG said:


> I wonder, however, if the "big boys" have trouble getting all the packages, nucs, queens they need?


Most of them make up losses and/or make increases themselves from their existing colonies. This is one reason many go south for the winter, the other is to make packages and nucs to sell to those in the north that need bees every spring. 
Some of them raise their own queens, while those that don't make their own, buy queens or cells from those that do.
Sheri


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Would it be safe to say that most "big boys" are self sustaining other than the fact they subcontract for queens. The queens they purchase allow the queen supplier to be self sufficient in just raising queens since that leaves him no time to produce honey to pay the bills.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks for chiming in Sheri, I enjoy your posts on the commercial threads...
I also imagine some commercial beeks add to their income by selling nucs to us sideliners... and backyarders... I'm buying two nucs and 6 queens from a northern commercial beek who winters in Mississippi.

Re: Sideliners becoming self-sustaining? That's exactly what I'm trying to do. I want to top out between 50-60 hives. now have only 14. I'll get there by buying nucs, making splits with bought queens to improve my genetic mix. But primarily by splitting and letting the splits raise their own queens. I think the concept is very workable for us sideliners. And economical too!

However, I also suspect we need to keep supporting those who sell queens, nucs, and packages for a living. If we don't buy, they don't make a living, and won't be there to provide us bees when we need them. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

I am curious... I consider myself to be self sustaining, but not by raising queens or Nucs. Instead, I put out bait boxes and retrieve swarms. This also diminishes the number of hives/swarms that are killed by exterminators. I usually have enough to supply to other bee club members.

So, does this count in your book ?

Fuzzy


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Yay!!! I love this thread!!!

Yes, you can be self sustaining! (read increase)

Raise your own queens! (hey, wait a minute, beekeepers don't raise queens, WORKER BEES raise queens and yes, they do it all the time - particularly in the Spring!)

Create overwintering nucs - small colonies in June/July in Northern States that build up to slightly bigger small colonies by fall and live through winter and BANG! explode out in the spring like they were some kind of super beehive raised from the best of the best in the prior year and never got shipped anywhere and never had any chemicals or miticides in their hives. Yeah - because that's how you do it.

-Whoops - how many toes have I just stomped on with my cowboy boots?-

Seriously, you just pushed my super big button. 
I just about an hour ago got finished teaching the second night of Maine's only Intermediate level Bee School 'Apiary Management'. Tonight's subjects were "Spring Management, Swarming, Nucs and Splits and Importance of the Queen". 
All that in two hours. It was a big night for me but I think I hit all of the major points and I know I had all 56 beekeepers engaged.

Anyway, I hope you continue on this path and understand that the best queens are reared by colonies who are not under stress and have abundant sources of nutritional input. Add to that a good supply of healthy drones from happy healthy beehives and you've got a sustainable apiary.

(key is you have to play on their team by their rules)

Best to you and your bees, 
-Erin


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Erin (Maine Beekeeper),

Would you, by some chance, have an electronic copy of your materials that you would be willing to share with me ?

Fuzzy


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

My first and only hive died this December 
But I will be started 3-4 new hives this year. Have two nucs ordered already for Spring. I will be setting out a swarm baiting hive as well, just to catch any passersby.


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## Claressa (Oct 1, 2009)

Fuzzy said:


> Erin (Maine Beekeeper),
> 
> Would you, by some chance, have an electronic copy of your materials that you would be willing to share with me ?
> 
> Fuzzy


I second that emotion.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Buffalolick said:


> I agree it is very interesting idea. How many hives would you think a beek would need to be self sustaining? How many to produce each year, and in what way..splits and let rear own queen, make up nucs and introduce queens, something else? Clearly there are a lot of different possibilities, but how do you see a sideliner beek putting it into action?


Becoming self sufficient has nothing to do with how many colonies you maintain. Granted, raising your own queens means more colonies needed, but becoming self sufficient for bees is no big deal.

You see, you can winter nucleus colonies quite easily...Erin? Erin's apiary has grown exponentially since she first heard the word. Now she's spreading that word to others...which is all I've asked of my "students". Way to go, girl!

See, you always have a colony or two that just doesn't make a honey crop. It's not that they're weak and unhealthy. Just aren't making the crop that other colonies are. These non-productive colonies are deficits in you apiary. Rather than futz around trying to save them, you use the bees and brood to create nucleus colonies...sometime near the end of the main honey flow. You winter them. In the spring, you have what replacement colonies you need...bam! 

Then, because you have these nucs in the spring, you don't have to split up yor strong colonies to make your nucs...allowing those good colonies to build large populations and make good honey crops. Obviously swarm control is necessary, but splitting a strong colony should be tha last resort for swarm control, not the first.

Once you have learned to winter nucleus colonies, you will always have a few that are weaker in the spring. These are allowed to build up into double deeps and are then broken up into nucs in mid-summer near the end of the main flow. The plan becomes self sufficient.

The changeover will take a few years. Make your plans now. You'll never see the benefits if you don't get started.

Once you have this supply of nucleus colonies, you'll be amazed at how your apiary improves. You have laying queens...look at wintering nucs as queens...to be used in requeening, boosting weak spring colonies, or making increase. During the time they are building up you have extra frames of brood and bees to add to weaker colonies...frames of brood removed from the nucs as a swarm control method.

See my article in Bee Culture in the March issue entitled...

"Nucs aren't just for increase anymore".

Make more nucs!!
Mike


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## Greg (May 30, 2009)

Maine_Beekeeper said:


> Yay!!! I love this thread!!!
> 
> Create overwintering nucs - small colonies in June/July in Northern States that build up to slightly bigger small colonies by fall and live through winter and BANG! explode out in the spring like they were some kind of super beehive raised from the best of the best in the prior year and never got shipped anywhere and never had any chemicals or miticides in their hives. Yeah - because that's how you do it.


Hi Erin,

OK, so what is the best way for a newbie to do this? (I'm still waiting to see if my two hives make it through their first winter but I'm hopeful. They were OK just prior to the last cold snap a few weeks ago.) Step by step if you can point me to a link.

Thanks!

Greg
Cornwall, VT


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## fat/beeman (Aug 23, 2002)

sounds like a great idea too me but does greed come in to play here too. I would be willing to share stock with another. in return would I get some good genes or AFB. as a commercial beekeeper. its my livening soooooooo being that said would people get there bees inspected to prove there clean? if so count me in 100%.
Don


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

There is no need to worry about a shortage of bees on a commercial level. Sure some have losses and some fail, just as in any industry. Others grow to fill their place. There are enough bees made every year to fill these losses and supply those hobbyist and sideliners with their winter loss/spring increase bees. 
Even if taking pressure off commercial supply is not warranted there may be other reasons to become more regionally, if not individually, self sustaining.
Individually self sustainment is a wonderful goal, if that is what one wants to do, but self-sustainment just for the sake of calling yourself that would be a hollow title if it lowers the productivity or  enjoyment of your apiary because you are doing something you just have no interest in. 

I am not trying to discourage anyone from making their own nucs or rearing their own queens. It is one of the most interesting and satisfying aspects of beekeeping, but everything has it's price, it also uses resources in terms of bees and time. While some may find this work fascinating, some find it tedious. No one should be made to feel inferior because they _choose_ to utilize specialists for replacement bees for winter losses or spring increase.

None of us are islands, none of us are totally self sustaining, we are all inter dependent to some degree. Using all the resources at your disposal in the most efficient manner (time, money, equity _and expert subcontractors_) may be the quickest road to self sustainment, in it's broadest, most practical definition. 
Sheri


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Sheri, I agree. Find what you are most efficient at, and purchase that which you are not good at. All that aside, I encourage the overwintering of Nucs as presented by Erin and M. Palmer. It may be that overwintering Nucs is precisely what they do best.

Roland


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Fat/Beeman - I'm not sure of Georgia but in Virginia all Nucs have to be inspected by the state apiarist prior to sale. 

Sheri, I get your point but most beekeepers I know either don't even know how to raise a queen or have not been taught how. Raising queens is not hard work, it doesn't take a whole lot of time (well maybe if your running a lot of hives it might) but the point is most beekeepers don't even try. Although I think your right about beeks not having to make queens and splits but the mentality is that its too much work or that the skill involved is too much to learn. That's not the case. But I guess its not for everyone.

Michael Palmer, It was great to read your post. You spoke at the spring 08 meeting of the Virginia State Beekeepers. Your methods and the information you put out are being used by my club for teaching new beekeepers, raising queens and making and holding nucs through winter. Thanks.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Roland, Exactly!

Hampton, queen rearing is something a lot of beekeepers are interested in and we encourage that interest. We have a few local beeks that come by every year to try their hand at it. I let them graft a couple frames if they wish. The first frame can be pretty bad but it is notable how well many do with just a little practice. No, it is not hard, especially on a small scale. 
Sheri


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

I use the Miller method so I have not done any grafting. I find its much less work and I get good results.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

We are communicating!
I love that.

Fuzz et al: I have a powerpoint slide presentation with 40 or so slides from my last night class presentation and only one with words on it (other than the title page). 
I'd be happy to share it, I am sure that many or most would be able to infer something valuable from photos. We could easily make a game of it! 100 different versions of Erin's slide presentation. I say lets go for it.

If someone knows an easy way for me to share a 29MB PDF of a powerpoint presentation, please pm or email me directly and I'll get it right out there. 

This is fun. 

I have to say that the only thing that gets me more energized than being in a room full of beekeepers is being in an apiary with lots of flying happy hives. 

Let's kick it up, keep the learning going, and play on the bees team.

Best to all, 
-E.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

I can't help it, I just have to take the shot.

"I have to say that the only thing that gets me more energized than being in a room full of beekeepers is being in an apiary with lots of flying happy hives."

If you are in an apiary with flying hives then one of two things is possible.
a. you are standing in tornado alley on a bad day
b. you've been hitting the hooch a bit too much

Fuzzy


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## Bodhi (Aug 30, 2009)

My goal over the next few seasons is to take steps toward having a self-sufficient 10-15 colonies here. I'm overwintering one small colony in a single deep as practice for next winter when I hope to make up half a dozen 4-5 frame nucs with northern raised Russian queens to bring through winter. Then in 2011 I want to start raising some queens myself. Maybe in a few years I'll have enough nucs I can start selling them.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

I didn't know this is what it's called but it appears I may be doing it. I've got 9 hives and I grafted queens for requeening certain hives and all of my 6 nucs. I fugured any hives that didn't make I'd replace with nucs that are headed by Fall queens. I'd love to see the presentation to learn more.


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

I'm not sure if there is a set of guidelines to measure if I am selfsustaining or not but I think of it as the number of colonies I have in one year to the number I have in the next. Then where did the difference come from or go to. And lastly did I have excess colonies that I provided to other beekeepers. In my case I count colonies and queens each as a 1, so if I sell a nuc it counts as 1, if I sell just a queen I still count her as 1.

so last year I had 5 colonies and started with 2 nucs in the spring. I went into winter with 6 colonies and 3 nucs. I purchased no bees (packages or nucs) or queens so as of fall 09 I was at +2. But also during the summer I provided nucs which put me well above that. Off hand I don't know how many, I would have to look in my records and count, but its above 10.

this year I am purchasing 4 queens to put in my out yards but I will still be in a positive number by fall as the new queens will only subtract -4 from my total. 

I guess this number could be a running count from spring to summer to fall to winter and back to spring. The further away from zero one side of the other would be the gauge of how you are doing, self sustaining or not.


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## Buffalolick (Jan 26, 2010)

I've been thinking about my question of how many hives would be needed to be self sustaining, and I see the point that it's not about numbers but about management style. I guess many people who only keep one or two hives are probally not interested in making nucs to over winter or otherwise making increase, and are happy to buy replacements as needed. Good thing too, as nuc producers need a market. I am looking foward to the March Bee Culture issue for the nuc article...I just got the January issue today (I haven't subscribed yet and still pick up a copy when I go to TSC for chicken feed). I think where I am is not sustainability but GROWTH! lol


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Working on the upload with no success. 
My website server only allows 2M attachments or smaller. 

In any event, the powerpoint is the background and the visual, the talking is the real teaching. 

I will certainly be doing this Intermediate Bee School again. Further, your own Master Beekeepers or other Bee School instructors can do the same or similar programs - but you are going to have to ask the beekeeper to do the class and then they'll need to coordinate with cooperative extension or whoever they can get to help get the room, take the fees, order the books, etc. Seriously, I simply called up the cooperative extension agent her in Cumberland County, introduced myself and said I'd like to start an Intermediate bee school. We met one time re: curriculum (which I prepared as he doesn't know much about bees) and then I made the syllabus and the extension office commenced to registering students. Publicity via the state association website and the Extension newsletter. Voila, Intermediate Bee School!

To any who might consider teaching: I taught the second class this past wednesday (after a long accountant's day of work during Year End). I'll admit, I started off feeling tired and less well prepared than I wanted to be. The class was 56 students. Spring Management of Overwintered Colonies, Swarming, Making Nucs and Splits, and Understanding the Queen were the topics. Class = 2 hours. 
I left the class so totally jazzed up, I can't even describe it. I think I saw at least 35 lightbulbs turn on over student's heads. Maybe even all 56. 
Teaching beginner bee school is fun. Teaching intermediate bee school is a total blast. 

I am sure that these students are to me as I am to Mike - 
Positive energy feeds positive energy. 

This is a good thing and we should all work to keep the learning and the growing. 

This is why we have beesource and bee clubs. 

Best to all, 
-E.


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## Mark in Kansas (Dec 10, 2009)

Maine_Beekeeper said:


> If someone knows an easy way for me to share a 29MB PDF of a powerpoint presentation, please pm or email me directly and I'll get it right out there.
> 
> -E.


Try something like: http://www.4shared.com/
Then share the URL here in the forum.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

As Erin said, there are problems in sending a powerpoint presentation. 

The files are too large. My presentation "Successful Overwintering of Nucleus Colonies in Vermont" is 183 MB. The PP that accompanies my March "Bee Culture" article is 34 MB.

Powerpoint is only a crutch used by the presenter. It is more like an outline that a book. There are lots of bullets and photographs to support the presentation, but it's not the presentation itself.

My presentation comes along with me. I'd be glad to share with you if your association can get me there. It's taken me many years of trial and error to get where I am. It's taken me years of work to get my presentation to where it is. I couldn't send it out without me as backup. You do understand?
Mike


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Maine_Beekeeper said:


> If someone knows an easy way for me to share a 29MB PDF of a powerpoint presentation, please pm or email me directly and I'll get it right out there.


Erin- I just shared a 75 MEG power point since I was too sick to teach class on Thursday night and had to get it to someone. What I did was go into one photo in the slide show. I right clicked to get format photo and clicked on compress all photos in show. It turned it into 7 megs... not that that is OK for bee source, but you could email something like that out to folks with high speed. Only other alternative is an ftp (file transfer protocol) site which I am sure David could help you with.
I would love to see the power point myself....


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Hampton said:


> I know of beekeepers who have been at it for many many years and still make sure to get their orders for packages in every November. There are a few clubs in my area that are trying. Its a thought.


Hey "Hampton" we have talked before - I am your up north neighbor. Colonial Beekeepers are moving in this direction as well. 
This year is the first I will not buy any packages and that our club will not buy any packages as a club. Our 25 beginning students will all get 1 nuc that our club members make (with the majority of thsoe being overwintered nucs) and 1 package. This represents 50% less packages than two years ago when all we could offer students were packages. We are really only a very small group doing this- less than 10 of us, but look at the progress we are making? Now we have 2 years of students who are getting exposed to a nuc right at the start. 
Erin and Mike have been good teachers to us, even from such a distance, but talking and sharing our experiences and using this forum have also served an important function.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

For those of you from NC, Dave Tarpy of NC Sate Univ. will be having queen rearing & bee breeding workshops across the state this spring. Check it out. It should be great. I plan to do it.


http://entomology.ncsu.edu/apiculture/BornAndBred.html


Lawrence


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Hi karla, Colonial Beekeepers went no packages last year. This year we should have double the members making nucs and a few extra making queens. Its a start.

There will be a Queen Rearing class in Hampton on the 
18th of February. Information on the upcoming classes can be found on the club web site. 

www.colonialbeekeepers.com.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Hampton said:


> Hi karla, Colonial Beekeepers went no packages last year. This year we should have double the members making nucs and a few extra making queens. Its a start.
> 
> www.colonialbeekeepers.com.


We are getting there. We will be down to less than 50% packages this year. Northern Shenandoah has had no packages for like 3 years.. and they have 40 students a year! It is great to be in touch.


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

I find it interesting that in all of this talk of sutainability no one has said anything about feeding or treating. Raising your own queens is of course part of being sustainable, but your not truly sustainable untill you do it without feeding sugar or treating with chemicals or powderd sugar or anything. I wonder if anyone is doing this? please contact me if you are because that is my end goal, I want a farm in the middle of nowhere so I can provide for myself and my family and only have to drive to the farmers market to sell honey, veggies so I can pay a mortgage and buy gas to drive to the farmers market. I mean thats how things used to be why cant I do it now?


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

hipbee said:


> , but your not truly sustainable untill you do it without feeding sugar or treating with chemicals or powderd sugar or anything. I wonder if anyone is doing this?


I think Guenther Hawk is running a no feed model- but I am not sure where he is at now since retiring from the Pfeiffer Center... somewhere in the midwest. Maybe the biobees contingent knows


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

I don't think feeding bees runs agaist being self sustaining. 

Using powdered sugar for mite control is a good part of IPM.

Using chemicals is up to the individual.

The difference would be natural beekeeping and being self sustaining.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Hipbee - When you get CCD, you will know the answer to your question. These are not the "good ol' days".


Roland


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## archy (Nov 14, 2009)

Hampton said:


> I don't think feeding bees runs agaist being self sustaining.
> 
> Using powdered sugar for mite control is a good part of IPM.
> 
> ...


I'd say if you are growing your own sugar, that's self-sustaining.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

'Self-sustaining beekeeping' and 'natural beekeeping' are not necessarily the same thing, but some people are talking as though it was.


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## vajerzy (Feb 5, 2008)

Hampton said:


> Reading a previous thread on a lack of honey bees I can't help but think one way to help would be if more beekeepers practiced self-sustaining beekeeping. I'm not too sure how much this would help some of the bigger commercial beeks but if more beekeeping clubs of hobby beekeepers and even smaller commercial and sideline beekeepers were to become self sufficient more of the larger bee breeders would be able to more effectivley provide bees to the larger commercial beekeepers. With only buying queens if required for genetic diversity a group of beekeepers could band together to trade nucs and queens. Locally grown colonies would help but only if enough beekeepers participated. From what I've seen, the last thing beekeepers learn is how to make queens or produce nucs. I know of beekeepers who have been at it for many many years and still make sure to get their orders for packages in every November. There are a few clubs in my area that are trying. Its a thought.


I'm starting this up with a few friends- I like queen swapping where swapping queens or queen cells will increase and diversify the gene pool. I would like the break the "buy a package" mentality and people buy bees that are more local.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Am I a self sustaining beekeeper?

I buy in my queens,
I make up splits inthe spring to replace losses,
I make my own equipment,
I buy feed during dearths,
I buy medication to help handle disease,
I hire help to handle the work load,
I sell all my crop to make my livelyhood, I make profits
I have been beekeeping for many years,

Am I a self sustaining beekeeper?, or do I have a self sustaining business? or both?


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

It sounds like you have one heck of a good business. Make your own queens and you would be all the way there.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Queen rearing doesnt improve a beekeepers opertion, in my opinion.
I have tried, and succeeded, and also failed miserabley.
It takes alot of time.

In the end, I found my operation to be running alot more efficiently contracting my queen needs to a professional breeder.
Know your breeder, most of them do a fantastic job.


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Rearing queens your "Self" is part of the equation in being "Self-sustaining".


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

So this is kind of what I am getting at.

If I raised my own queens, but I bought in all the rest of supplies needed to keep my hives running, am I self sustaining.

Feed, medication, foundation, boxes, wood products, 

To be self sustaining, you cant just cut out bought queens.
How many beekeepers here can go completely without buying in product to keep the operation going?

Self sustaining an operation proves no benifet, and in itself is unsustainable.
Cant beekeep if you dont have any bees, right?

Though,
Making a step towards that mind set,makes for a more humble operation.


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

I hear what your saying but somewhere you have to draw a line.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

So lets draw the line and create a firm definition of the term "self-sustaining beekeeping". If you define it as the ability to keep a commercial operation going for a while, my Family might know a little bit.

Roland 
Linden Apiary, Est. 1852


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Yes, Ian, and Roland, this is the point I was trying to make earlier. 
At what point is _anyone_ really self-sustaining? I think you could draw that line at any point in the supply chain. To take the example to extremes, If I don't cut down the trees and mill my own bee boxes, does that mean I am not self sufficient? Well, some might say just that. OK, maybe I _did_ cut the trees, someone might ask "did you plant them?"

I think it is more important to concentrate on learning to be a successful bee keeper. Self-sustainment is the end result of that process, and is best accomplished by concentrating on what you do best and trading that for the things you aren't good or efficient at, (or would rather not do). If you raise great queens trade them for the guy that makes the boxes. If you make wonderful wooden ware, you will always have a good source for queens. Or if you are great at making and selling honey, take that money and buy both your queens and boxes from those other guys. 

Sure, try your hand at raising queens and making bee boxes, you may find your true calling in life. You could also try blowing your own glassware too, but at what point does it interfere with your path to success, how "self sustaining" is it, really? I suspect everyone has their own notion of the answer to that question, but just because one person's answer is different than another's, does not make one a better beekeeper than the other.

In my mind, the bottom line definition of self sustainment is not having to keep going back to the bank (or the household cookie jar, or a spouse's income source) to explain why you can't pay back the last loan and you need to borrow more money. 
Sheri


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_In my mind, the bottom line definition of self sustainment is not having to keep going back to the bank (or the household cookie jar, or a spouse's income source) to explain why you can't pay back the last loan and you need to borrow more money._

I'd have to agree here.

I think people are confusing self-sustaining with being completely independant. If you buy queens, you are dependant upon your queen breeder. You are not completely independant. However, if you produce enough other goods or services (honey. pollination, etc) and can afford to purchase those queens (rather than make them yourself) I believe you are self-sustaining. 

Whatever you don't do for yourself is a weakness, because you are dependant upon someone else. But through cooperation, you can work around weaknesses. You just have to watch out that you don't have a break in the supply chain, because you can quickly be up a creek without a paddle.

Do the 'self-sustaining' beekeepers still use a horse and buggy to haul their hives and sell their honey...or are they buying gas and autos?


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

While I agree with many of the thoughts posted so far I have to say that in taking all aspects of beekeeping to the extreem we are loosing sight of the origin of the thread. I don't think too many guys out there can say start to finnish they are 100% self-sustaining. And if we really want to go into the mud on this I would have to ask did they build the chain saw to cut down the tree, and what about the nails and glue....

Saying this I would like to get back to the beekeeping. I'll give in on buying wood, meds, safety gear, and so on ...

BEEKEEPING!

The basis of this thread was a previous thread of was there a shortage of honeybees. I put this thread out there to get us to think. While now most beekeepers in November, December and January are thinking of where are they going to buy the packages and queens they will need to make up for thier winter loses or increases for the following year they could have been doing the same thinking in June and July and have thier own nucs made up and raised thier own queens.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Hampton, I believe I may understand your position. For a sideliner or hobby type, the economies are different. For a commercial person, it is economies of scale that are important. Sure, I make my own bottom boards, inner covers, and roofs from recycled wood, and I could, and possible will, make my own frames and supers. At this time , it is cheaper for me to purchase my frames and supers. The same is true for bees. Sure, I could make nucs, and over winter them, but a lady from Owen can do a better job of making bees than I can. At this time, I am better off concentrating on honey production, and trading her money for bees, than taking time away from honey production to make nucs, that may or may not survive a Wisconsin winter. Does that make me less of a beekeeper? 
I applaud those that are trying to reduce their dependence on packages. I would hope that in the future I can learn more and different ways to do so myself, but a commercial venture with no miticides is a risky proposition.

So from my vantage, we have sustained our selves for 6 generations as beekeepers. 

Roland


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Roland,

I here you there. That's Business.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Roland
You and your family definitely have the record!  ...And thanks for the kind words.

Hampton
Oh yeah, I forgot about that chainsaw.
I can understand where you are coming from, too, regarding queens and spring bees. On the very subject of queens, a few years back due to a supply/demand imbalance we had a tough time getting queens at a reasonable price. This pushed us into raising queens here in the summer, something we had never done before. While we still purchase our early spring queens, (the pros can do it earlier, cheaper and better than we can) we do raise quite a few here in Wisconsin ourselves, once the weather moderates. If push came to shove we _could_ raise more of our own. It is always a good thing to hedge one's bets.
Sheri


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Yes it is.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Hampton, you said it yourself, self sustaining,

perhaps a better word for your post would be "sustainable". "Self sustainable" is like the hippies down the road, totally independent of everything working around them. That would basically be same for a self sustainable beekeeping operation, Hobie or not.

But a sustainable operation, is one that includes all advantages available to make for better business decisions.

What I think your really getting at is merely self sustaining your own hive population numbers. With management practices that favour increasing hive numbers.

Lets not get caught up in "better beekeeping practices" with labels like "self sustainable beekeeping". I bought 80 packages for this spring, why? So I didn't have to take 20-30 hives out of production to make those numbers. Bottom line, its all economics. Hobby or not


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>At what point is anyone really self-sustaining? I think you could draw that line at any point in the supply chain. To take the example to extremes, If I don't cut down the trees and mill my own bee boxes, does that mean I am not self sufficient? Well, some might say just that. OK, maybe I did cut the trees, someone might ask "did you plant them?"


Sheri,
there is no line. Its black and white. Ask my hippy friend down the road.
even they will stray off the line time to time,


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Ian, If there is no line, how do you know its black and white? Also, how is it your hippy buddy can see it?

You are choosing to put in standards that are not there to justify your side of this discussion. 

Let me see if I get your point. No one is self sustaining because sooner or later he has to buy something with money or barter for it. So because we all are not self-sustaining then as long as we can show a profit we are now self-sustaining. Sorry but I don't agree.


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

this thread is going down hill, I dont know about your hippies down the road but this hippie down the road isnt interested in being completly self-sustaining thats not the point. most of us are interested in creating a permaculture. look it up


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## thomas894 (Feb 12, 2010)

that's it. i totally agree. we seek and require permaculture. don't dismiss the thread yet. the discussion is too important.


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Thanks Hipbee, I learn something new every day.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Ian, If there is no line, how do you know its black and white? Also, how is it your hippy buddy can see it?

I never said there is no line, I am saying there IS a line. 
It is clear, and to the point. 
how ever you reach your conclusion on this topic, just try to keep thing real


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

I thought you did? It must have been someone else.

Ian Re: Self-sustaining beekeeping

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>At what point is anyone really self-sustaining? I think you could draw that line at any point in the supply chain. To take the example to extremes, If I don't cut down the trees and mill my own bee boxes, does that mean I am not self sufficient? Well, some might say just that. OK, maybe I did cut the trees, someone might ask "did you plant them?"


Sheri,
there is no line. Its black and white. Ask my hippy friend down the road.
even they will stray off the line time to time,


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I think you could draw that line at any point in the supply chain.

I was meaning there is no line to move, its either your self sustaining, or not,
and for the hippies, they are live a "self sustaining" life style when it best suits them


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