# What is treatment free?



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

My suggestion is to read the treatment free sub forum heading which is this:


> *Forum: Treatment-Free Beekeeping*
> 
> Discussing and formulating honeybee management methods that cooperate as much as possible with natural bee biology without resorting to the use of chemicals and drugs.


There have been many side discussions on all the other things like feeding sugar and such but most times, I stick to the above when I talk treatment free. Basically in my mind, all things are game and considered management items except the adding of chemicals to control disease and I don't count sugar as a chemical even though it is one. My take of the above is mite/disease not being addressed with medicine. The rest is just management. There have been discussions here that that is not enough of a definition but I am comfortable that you have to start somewhere in a discussion and the above is a good starting place and you can add or take away from there during the discussion. When I talk of doing nothing for my bees, I am doing it from the stand point of doing nothing for mites with chemicals and in my mind also no antibiotics till my bees are sick and I change my mind.
Cheers
gww


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

TF means different things to different people. For most of us, it means not treating the bees for varroa with hope of obtaining resistant bees. To some it means no chemicals, so powdered sugar dusting and drone brood removal is ok. To others that is considered a form of treatment and they won't do it. There are several treatment-free chronicle threads. My advice would be to spend a few hours and read through them. Even the true TF folks don't seem to agree on the best way to be TF.

My sole concession so far is to switch to using OA, a naturally occuring chemical in plants, and giving up the use of Apivar, which is synthetic.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

TurtleSpider said:


> I have read a little and am confused, can someone please explain what treatment free beekeeping means?


You have every right to be confused. 'Treatment-Free' is an umbrella term which is often used to mean 'Chemical-Free' rather than 'Treatment-Free', and it's this lack of precision of use which renders the term 'Treatment-Free' devoid of meaning, imo.

There's a perfect example of this confusion in Greg's recent post (sorry, Greg), regarding Cuba being 'Treatment-Free' - only they're not, they're 'Chemical-Free'. The author of the article specifically states that: "*The only treatment permitted is drone-comb trapping to reduce the mite population.* All beekeepers are trained and urged to practice this mite-control technique." And so that author clearly recognises that a physical intervention such as drone-comb trapping constitutes a 'treatment'.

Likewise, in the world of human medicine, Physiotherapy and Surgery are both common forms of 'Treatment' - but neither are based upon the primary use of Medication. And yet within so many TF threads we witness people using one term in order to describe the other (perhaps, or perhaps not ?) - and so people may be effectively 'talking past each other' believing erroneously that they are discussing exactly the same thing - or maybe they're not ... Confused ? Of course.

I've mentioned this lack of precise definition before, but there doesn't seem to any enthusiasm to clarify the terminology being used. I used to wonder why this was - but have since lost interest in this issue.
LJ


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

For most people claiming to be treatment free, it means they don't use chemicals to control varroa mites. So in Ozzy, you will be treatment free, unless you are using some chemical to control foul brood disease, which for a new hobbyist is unlikely.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

oldtimer


> For most people claiming to be treatment free, it means they don't use chemicals to control varroa mites. So in Ozzy, you will be treatment free, unless you are using some chemical to control foul brood disease, which for a new hobbyist is unlikely.


:thumbsup: Wish I had the talent to use fewer words then I do to get a point across.
Cheers
gww


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> ....
> There's a perfect example of this confusion in Greg's recent post (sorry, Greg), ....
> LJ


You are correct, LJ - the topic name is a .... flop.

I am not confused, I just fall into a trap of loosely using the term sometimes (which I should not be).

Anyways, I am a CF (chem-free) as my sig says.

I split aggressively and chase swarms.
I feed sugar too (pretty much required with an aggressive nuc program and with captured late swarms).
I harvest drones from low-quality colonies (for food supplement purposes - why I have bees anyway) - incidentally, that happens to be a treatment.
High-quality bees get to produce as much drone as they want - I want the drone production (so - no treatments here).
One reason I practice no chems whatsoever - I also harvest perga from old brood combs (food supplement) - the combs must be clean (else, why even do this?).
I run "darwinian-style" smaller hives across several distributed yards (which can be a hassle, but that's the population management program).
No foundation used whatsoever - bees build whatever the hack they want (oops - did use frames I got for free with foundation in the *honey supers *this summer - because I already had them).

So, here you go - CF and be done with it.
I will just keep using the CF term on forward because it is accurate and yet no-one is really using it (the term).
Should though.
Moving along.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

GregV said:


> I harvest drones from low-quality colonies (for food supplement purposes - why I have bees anyway).....
> I also harvest perga from old brood combs (food supplement)


As in, you eat them?


----------



## TurtleSpider (Mar 27, 2018)

Oldtimer said:


> For most people claiming to be treatment free, it means they don't use chemicals to control varroa mites. So in Ozzy, you will be treatment free, unless you are using some chemical to control foul brood disease, which for a new hobbyist is unlikely.


I thought this may be the case. Thank you all for the replies!


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> As in, you eat them?





> Honey bee brood – the larvae and pupae of drones – has great potential as a food source. It is already eaten as a delicacy in many countries, including Mexico, Thailand and Australia. It has a nutty flavor with a crunchy texture when eaten cooked or dried, and is a versatile ingredient used in soups and egg dishes.Nov 28, 2016
> Science Daily › releases › 2016/11


To each their own. I'll pass for now.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> As in, you eat them?


OT, I have repeated this many times - yes.
Even posted many details (mostly to just irk the local US people, as it turned out, so not posting anymore).

Pressed drone/honey mix at ~50/50.
Not my invention - this is a staple East Euro food-supplement/medication (known in West Euro, but to a lesser degree).
A sought out product - the beeks sell and even specialize in the production.
OK; enough.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK, I don't actually read everything on Beesource so was not aware. 

I haved eaten larvae out of curiosity, but to me taste pretty nasty, much like royal jelly. However it is probably pretty healthy.

What is perga?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As has already been said it means different things to different people.

> Even the true TF folks don't seem to agree on the best way to be TF.

Even the treaters don't seem to agree on the best way to keep bees with treatments....

Personally I think not feeding is wrong thinking. You are going to steal the bees' food supply but if they come up short you're not willing to help them out? They aren't coming up short because of bad planning, they are coming up short because you stole their food...

Anyway, the obvious answer is that treatment free means you don't use treatments for anything. The obvious first reason would be to not have chemicals in your honey. The next would be to have a healthy ecology in the colony.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> OK, I don't actually read everything on Beesource so was not aware.
> 
> I haved eaten larvae out of curiosity, but to me taste pretty nasty, much like royal jelly. However it is probably pretty healthy.
> 
> What is perga?


Drones:

You don't need to cook/eat drones; I would not. 
Nor I want to get into the hassle of separating the larva from comb - hugely unproductive time waste.
Unsure why people immediately assume frying the larva, those bug-food blogs I guess... 


Like I have been saying - you simply C&S the freshly harvested drone brood - exact same process as C&S honey.
Mix the pressed liquid with honey and freeze mix (it will stay a thick liquid in a freezer).
Eat 1-2 spoons daily as-if the honey. Use it on you toast or cereal or whatever - no difference.
Trivial, good for you, and tastes the same as honey (while being very, very nutritious).
It is really a waste to toss such a great product of limited availability which is *impossible *to buy in the US (and partly why I got into this bee running hassle; which is lot of hassle, indeed).
People who are in the know are begging for it.
My home version: 








Here is entire process of drone production at some scale (as usually, non-English; but watch and learn and replicate).
Conveniently, this also has mite removal side-effect (i.e. "treatment" - which in this case is not even the point but rather coincidence).
BTW, the video author made a great show of how to attach the starter strip; I just loved that part.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea4WyKnT2KY&t=2s

Perga (aka fermented bee bread - another great supplement and more nutritious than raw pollen)
https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?344525-Eating-pollen


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Michael Bush said:


> ....The obvious first reason would be to not have chemicals in your honey....


And by extension, if you take a wider view and consider OTHER bee products for human consumption (e.g. brood, perga/bee bread, queen jelly, propolis) - you certainly don't want to contaminate those. These products are actually more valuable than the honey itself (just a natural sweetener; now days the sweeteners are not in short supply).


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks Greg, very interesting.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

GregV said:


> Unsure why people immediately assume frying the larva, those bug-food blogs I guess...


Probably because that's how wasp larvae are eaten in some Asian countries.

I know a lady who was born in Vietnam, her parents were arrested by the communists and as a young girl she was left to fend for herself. She knew how to collect wasp larvae from the forest so she did that and cooked and sold them on the side of the road. Somehow survived and eventually made her way to a refugee camp in Thailand then eventually to New Zealand.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> Probably because that's how wasp larvae are eaten in some Asian countries.....


Right.
Compared to many foods, the bee/wasp larvae are very nutritious.
https://slism.com/calorie/111244/

In any case, I enjoyed fried crickets and grass-hoppers a co-worker brought from Mexico. 
Crunch and spice was fine as for me.
I finished them off mostly by myself. 

Bee larvae, being conveniently compacted into the combs and "juicy", are just asking for C&S technology to be applied.
Very efficient.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

What kind of money does that larvae juice fetch.

Price of honey here has tanked, looking at all options.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> What kind of money does that larvae juice fetch.
> 
> Price of honey here has tanked, looking at all options.


I don't know OT.
Market in the US does not exist.

Very quick Google of Russian market; first hit of many; the price in Rubles (convert as needed)
https://tiu.ru/Trutnevyj-gomogenat.html


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> What kind of money does that larvae juice fetch.
> 
> Price of honey here has tanked, looking at all options.


I don't know OT.
Market in the US does not exist.
I imagine you have no market either.

Very quick Google of Russian market; first hit of many; the price in Rubles (convert as needed; of course, the prices are appropriate for their level)
If any decent scale, the beeks sell the raw larvae juice (frozen - a must) to the retail product manufacturers.
Now days some people started drying the "juice" in special equipment (can be pricey; essentially lab grade - but if going up scale, should pay off).

https://tiu.ru/Trutnevyj-gomogenat.html

Similar in Ukraine:
https://prom.ua/Trutnevyj-gomogenat.html (in Grivnas).

The beeks should be looking ahead and developing the larvae juice, bee bread and the like *food supplement markets* with appropriate prices.
Not sitting on the honey wagon, like we are in 19th century of sorts.


PS: I like the term you called it - the drone larva juice; works for me.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hmm that's interesting. 

Exporting food comes with a lot of hassles but there is a sizeable Asian market here. I'll talk to some Asian friends and see what they want and if we can work something out.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> Hmm that's interesting.
> 
> Exporting food comes with a lot of hassles but there is a sizeable Asian market here. I'll talk to some Asian friends and see what they want and if we can work something out.


Actually, yes!
Check the Asians.
Very well the drone larva juice is known there.
For sure, they already eat it.
Why not make juice capsules, etc, etc??!!


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> Actually, yes!
> Check the Asians.
> Very well the drone larva juice is known there.
> For sure, they already eat it.
> Why not make juice capsules, etc, etc??!!


According to google, the drone juice is well known and highly regarded in China and Japan.
I imagine there is some market there too (in fact, the Eastern Euro probably just copied the idea, pretty typical).

Why, very quickly I found good documentation on drone brood cultivation and harvesting:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2016.1226606


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK well i picked up the phone and called my Chinese friend who is a hobby beekeeper and runs a food production company, he thinks the idea has merit we are going to work something out.

He's got a factory, speaks the needed languages, and I have the bees. :thumbsup:


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Here in Finland some restaurants buy drone larvae, for cooking. 

I know some beekeepers just fry them on a pan with butter.

Crickets were the first insect food.


----------



## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I will sometimes eat drone pupae out of the hives. Not larvae. A fully developed drone pupa is actually kind of tasty. Reminds me of coconut.


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Sorry, I meant pupa!


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> OK well i picked up the phone and called my Chinese friend who is a hobby beekeeper and runs a food production company, he thinks the idea has merit we are going to work something out.
> 
> He's got a factory, speaks the needed languages, and I have the bees. :thumbsup:


Here you go!
Hope something works out; keep posted.

Now, this got me thinking - we DO have a lot of Asians here too. 
Doh! 
I need to go and visit a couple of local Asian food markets and see what are the offers there.
That what I should do as well and see. 
We got several Oriental grocery stores in the area.
I have lots of Hmong around here; garden together, in fact.

But I also have a large Eastern Euro population here (even "Russian Foods" grocery store is running).
I am maybe at the level now to start making some local proposals for the next season.
Chemical-free. Local. Russian-speaker. Traditional Old-World beekeeping. Apiary tours for those interested.
I could be just the thing!


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

TurtleSpider said:


> I have read a little and am confused, can someone please explain what treatment free beekeeping means?


This contains one definition: https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?253066-Unique-Forum-Rules


----------



## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Sorry, I meant pupa!


Glad you cleared that up!! I have eaten graftings of 1 - 2 day old larva with royal jelly. Just ate it off the grafting tool. Almost tasteless to me, and no texture to speak of. I don't think I could pop a fat larva in my mouth though! Maybe an odd place to "draw the line," but that is where mine is drawn.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

psm1212 said:


> Glad you cleared that up!! I have eaten graftings of 1 - 2 day old larva with royal jelly. Just ate it off the grafting tool. Almost tasteless to me, and no texture to speak of. I don't think I could pop a fat larva in my mouth though! Maybe an odd place to "draw the line," but that is where mine is drawn.


By the time they get to the purple eye stage I find them a bit on the chewy side. Have never tried them cooked though. Doubt that raising bees for food production is very efficient unless getting rid of brood also served some other benefit as explored in the thread on culling capped brood to prevent swarming.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> .......... unless getting rid of brood also served some other benefit as explored in the thread on culling capped brood to prevent swarming.


Getting rid of drone brood is one of the mite treatments; no?
That is the only "treatment" allowed in Cuba, as we recently found out.
So, that's the benefit - one shot - two rabbits down - no chems involved.

Heck, if you industrially raise drone brood for pressing larvae juice out of it - it is a win all way around.

BTW, those larva/pupa - make excellent food (or food supplement) for the pets and the like.. 
A hint.


----------



## jnqpblk (Apr 7, 2015)

It is an extremely vague and misused term, often only addressing whether or not a beekeeper does or doesn't use certain chemicals (of which sugar dusting may not be one of them) to control/kill varroa mites.

Me thinks a better term would be "management free", since in the so called "treatment free" beekeeping, there are many functions (treatments!) done to attempt to lower the mite numbers.

I would love to see the results of truly "management" free beekeeping on hives, purely and specifically selecting for hygienic. Count the losses, set aside those that make it and use them to grow hive numbers. And see whether varroa is controllable.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jnqpblk said:


> Me thinks a better term would be "management free"....


The "management free" is even MORE confusing.
The management includes treatments of various levels and different goals (including - none), splitting (i.e. unit number management and queen management), swarm management, comb management, yard management, what-have-you management.... Let's not go there, please.


Even the bee tree runners still manage their bee trees (believe you or not).
There is a lot of management in that line of business even though they are the most treatment-free bee-business operators I can think of.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jnqp.....


> It is an extremely vague and misused term, often only addressing whether or not a beekeeper does or doesn't use certain chemicals (of which sugar dusting may not be one of them) to control/kill varroa mites.


How can the link that riverderwent posted be considered vague and misused? It seemed to lay it out pretty clear to me when used in this forum format.
Cheers
gww


----------



## b2bnz (Apr 5, 2009)

In Africa bee larva and bee pupa are a sort after food source and, on finding a wild bee nest, often with the help of the honey bird, which is looking for scraps after the man has raided the nest, the man will eat the brood hot and fresh from the tree hollow. Portion taken home to feed the family. Bee nest raiding is also true in Nepal.


----------



## Beecky (Jun 12, 2015)

JWPalmer said:


> My sole concession so far is to switch to using OA, a naturally occuring chemical in plants, and giving up the use of Apivar, which is synthetic.


JW, How often do you treat with OA, and what method do you use, dribble or vapor? 
Thank you


----------

