# Fumagilin for queens



## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

I would like to advertise my queens as treatment free. I do not treat any hives currently.

But am wondering if it would be prudent to treat cell builders and mating nucs with Fumagilin, with the problems from Nosema seming to be on the rise.

What do others on here do?

Johnny


----------



## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

What this "other" does is to not treat unless there's a problem. Doesn't make sense to treat healthy bees.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't treat at all.

http://bushfarms.com/beesnosema.htm#avoid


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

In my country it is illegal to feed antibiotics to bees, so nosema is not treated. As a result, bees that are susceptable to nosema have done worse and have slowly been bred away from over the years.
_N. Cerana_ has now arrived on our shores, but so far the bees are coping quite well, no major dramas with it.


----------



## Beewrangler (Feb 20, 2010)

I wish this country would pass some kind of legislation preventing any kind of chemical treatment of bees and other agriculturals. This would cause some major losses up front but over time livestock and crops would breed themselves to deal with the issues and in the end I think the country and maybe even the world would be better off.


----------



## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

"I wish this country would pass some kind of legislation preventing any kind of chemical treatment of bees and other agriculturals".

Either you have lots of money, or don't like to eat. What do you think those losses up front would do to cost and availability of food? If you want natural and organic food, shop at Whole Foods and pay the price. Don't force me to do the same.:ws

I don't currently treat for anything, but if you look in ABJ, many of the queen breeders say they treat for Nosema to prevent weakened Queens.

I just wondered if people thought this was necessary.

Johnny


----------



## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

I've found a corelation between early queen cells, black queen cell virus, cold, and fumagilin. The earliest cell builders without fumagilin treatments may have an emergence rate of 40-50% during May in my zone 5 area. If I add fumagilin to the cell builders that emergence rate increases to 80-90% during the same time frame. After it warms in the spring-summer fumagilin is not needed in my area. 

I have also been treatment free but have started to wonder if there is always a nosema level present in the hive everyday. Just some conditions magnify it's presence and effect on the hive. Early spring the bees are still clensing from the winter. Summer, new nectars, pollens, bees, wax, etc...health, strength improves. FWIW


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Brandy said:


> I have also been treatment free but have started to wonder if there is always a nosema level present in the hive everyday. Just some conditions magnify it's presence and effect on the hive. Early spring the bees are still clensing from the winter. Summer, new nectars, pollens, bees, wax, etc...health, strength improves. FWIW


Yes, that's exactly right.

In my country we do have nosema, and it is particularly noticeable after the winter when bees have been in close quarters and cleaning up faecal matter that's been made inside the hive. Bees have probably always had nosema. But it does not appear to have the impact I read about on this forum.

BTW we DO treat for mites!


----------



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Johnny, 

For those of us in the south and those in the south west, nosema is not so much of a concern because the light winters and higher temps keep down the spread... we do not treat for nosema at all, but like brandy said, the earlier you start, the more nosema can effect your take.

Like oldtimer said, it is present in any cool, moist condition, the trick is to watch for the colonies that are effected the most by it and be sure to breed away from those traits.

In relation to you being able to call your queens "treatment free" after treating for nosema... if your genetics do not require treatment to survive and thrive, and you only treat for nosema that builds up over the winter (not because the bees need it) so that your cell production would be better... I would not feel misled buying your queens.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I would not feel misled buying your queens.

And, unless you specified that you did, I would feel misled...


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Any comments on Nozevit, which is "not a treatment" but supposedly works?


----------



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Again, so long as it is only used in cell builders and not in grafting or drone stock... I wouldn't feel misled. The grafting stock and drone stock needs to be able to "survive and thrive" without outside influence to be considered truly "treatment free".. to me the term "treatment" should not just be limited to chemicals, but also should include management practices such as drone comb freezing, swarm enhancements to break brood cycles, screened bottom boards, etc.. the whole purpose of wanting a "treatment free" queen would be to have a hive that needs no pest control maintenance.... it should be a hive that you can leave sitting for a year and if it dies, it has to have been from something other than pests (other than shb), disease, or infections of any kind... well, I guess there are those extreme cases that should be considered...


----------



## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Not so many years ago treating with antibiotics as a preventive management practice could be found in any book wrote on beekeeping.
Today most agree this was an illogical approach, and only treat when necessary. People don’t pop antibiotics to prevent getting sick, today if a hive shows heavy signs of Nosema I will eliminate them form the apiary. Since I have adopted this approach nosema has virtually gone away in my stock.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Any comments about Nosevit as it is "not a medication", but seems to work?


----------



## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Nozevit is a food supplement, if it promotes healthier honeybees go for it. I’m sure some folks would disagree. But if I would be willing to spread honey on my toast, from a hive that used it that would pass the read face test for me.


----------



## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

Broke-T said:


> I would like to advertise my queens as treatment free. I do not treat any hives currently.
> 
> But am wondering if it would be prudent to treat cell builders and mating nucs with Fumagilin, with the problems from Nosema seming to be on the rise.
> 
> ...


I wish I could find the website that I was looking at at one point. It had some useful info exactly on this.

Using fumagillin on cell builders is highly recommended. The reasons for this is the hives are put into a situation thats causing high stress and that can cause a degree of suceptability of a range pathogens, ect. A regular hive that is resistant to Nosema in regular conditions has an advantage over other colonies, wether they are run as a production hive or as a cell builder. But where the rearing of queens are concerned, you really want to keep it as low as you can or eminated all together and that means treatment with fumagillin. The most common cause of supersedure of tested queens (mated and laying good worker brood) from reared queens and/or shipped queens, is due to nosema. Treating colonies used for rearing queens will have no bearing on a 'nosema resistant stock' where the treatment is only ensuring a quality of grafted queens.

Something that we have to remember is that it's not usual for colonies to rear a multitude of cells as what we give them nor the larva to be grafted. Having a mentality of saying "lets keep it as natural as possible" is an oxymoron if refered to rearing queens in this manner, because there's little natural about it.

In my own experience I've noticed a reduced supercedure rate in queens that reared in hives that were treated fumagillin. I've also seen queens that were reared in cell builders that were not treated where 1/3 were superceded within the first 1 1/2 months.

This goes for queens that will be shipped as well. whether packages or queens, that the stress of transportation and change in the enviroment causes high stress and possible nosema. So, In the intrest of protecting your investment, there is no harm to err on the side of caution and give then a treatment of Fumagillin.


----------



## Beewrangler (Feb 20, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> Again, so long as it is only used in cell builders and not in grafting or drone stock... I wouldn't feel misled. The grafting stock and drone stock needs to be able to "survive and thrive" without outside influence to be considered truly "treatment free".. to me the term "treatment" should not just be limited to chemicals, but also should include management practices such as drone comb freezing, swarm enhancements to break brood cycles, screened bottom boards, etc.. the whole purpose of wanting a "treatment free" queen would be to have a hive that needs no pest control maintenance.... it should be a hive that you can leave sitting for a year and if it dies, it has to have been from something other than pests (other than shb), disease, or infections of any kind... well, I guess there are those extreme cases that should be considered...


Do you think this would also include feeding pollen/pollen supplements or syrup or any kind?

I don't feed now and would like to continue this practice as much as possible in my hope-to-be future queen and nuc business.


----------



## Ishi (Sep 27, 2005)

Which would your customers be happier with a queen that lasted 4 to 6 weeks that was not fed Fumigillin or one that Fumigillin was used in the Queen rearing process and lasted a year or more?


----------



## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

How about doing a spore count before deciding to administer? Fumagillan is a terratagen, meaning it causes birth defects. Further consider the impact it has on the other beneficial microbes. It is very easy to sample bees and determine spore load. Simply not using sick bees as part queen rearing should eliminate the need to use this material. Further, there are studies that show a rigorous course of pollen patties or sub can reduce or eliminate spore load.

BTW I would consider anything less than a 98+% emergence rate a highly unusual and would look to technique before looking to a nasty chem for a solution. Spore counts are easy to do with a relatively cheap microscope.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Which would your customers be happier with a queen that lasted 4 to 6 weeks that was not fed Fumigillin or one that Fumigillin was used in the Queen rearing process and lasted a year or more? 

Mine are never fed Fumigillin (indeed NONE of my bees have EVER been fed Fumigillin) and the queens often last three or four years... I want those...


----------



## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

"BTW I would consider anything less than a 98+% emergence rate a highly unusual and would look to technique before looking to a nasty chem for a solution."

Yes, I would have totally agreed with you, until I found the correlation between the time of year and the cell builders. I had hoped that I made that clear that once the weather warmed the emergence rate increased without the " nasty chem". 

I'm curious how many of the large queen producers are using Fumagilin throughout the season as standard practice?


----------



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Brandy,

We only use it for certain builders that are used for building cells during the first week of March. The only reason we use it on these is to cater to a group of customers that require it. These customers purchase a total of about 8,000 queens from us each year in March. The builders are marked and the same ones are used year after year to keep them separate from our other builders.

Again, I think its important to point out that, just like you said, the need is totally dependant on time of year and location has even more to do with it.

In our area, nosema is not much of a threat, and is rarely seen after march 15th, but I do not feel that treating cell builders for early production has any effect on genetic stock or the queens being produced.. thus I personally would not have a problem purchasing queens that were produced in this manner.

Hope this helps!


----------

