# supercedure v. emergency queens



## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

We checked on the hives and nucs today. Nuc 2 has built emergency cells and capped them. They look much shorter than supercedure cells. Is the queen going to be any good that comes out of them? Nuc 1 has built some as well, but does have 2 supercedure cells that haven't hatched yet.

Three supercedure cells look to have hatched in hive 1. One was still intact. What are the chances that it has a viable queen in it?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

In both of these hives, is there still a queen in there, too? If no queen then in my experience they aren't supercedure cells but they may be emergency cells (or swarm cells). 

Nancy


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

Nucs have no queen, hence emergency cells. Hive 1 does have a queen as of last week, possibly before. It is where I found the supercedure cells. Supercedure cells in nuc 1 came from the mother hive.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Oh, I get it, now!

Re nuc #1 with emergency cells: they generally look smaller because unlike swarm or supercedure cells they originally had a horizontal orientation rather than a typically vertical one. My bees make excellent queens from emergency cells all the time. A way to alter the orientation (more vertical vs horizontal) is using a little bit of the Mel Disselkoen's OTS technique. But this may just be a way to make a cosmetic difference to the cells, making them seem more-queenish to our eyes. I put a lot of faith in the bees knowing what to do to get good queens made when they need to, especially on something they could easily modify like the shape of a cell, as opposed to an external factor like being forced by circumstances (or beekeepers' actions) to make a queen when some other issue like temps or nutritional supplies weren't great. Sounds like this one is on the way.

Re the nuc with pre-existing supercedure cells: I sometimes try to take advantage of multiple supercedure cells and make a nuc with one or two. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. As a beekeeper, I think that those cells would be preferable (always fed as queens) to e-cells, but the bees sometimes think differently, I guess. If they also had the wherewithall (very young larvae, or eggs) to make emergency cells in addition to caring for the supercedure cells, it will still work well. Though your developmental-stage timing periods would be different in each case making it harder to know when to stay out of the way of a queen going out to mate. I'd workout that timing both from the earliest possible mating period (supercedure queen) and latest (emergency cell queen) and just leave them alone for the *whole* time. 

Hive #1, with the supercedure cells: work out the timing for that and then be sure to stay out when the queen is likely to be mating. You may get a chance to snatch the old queen out, and put her in a nuc if you wanted to, but maybe not.

Nancy


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

enjambres said:


> Re nuc #1 with emergency cells: they generally look smaller because unlike swarm or supercedure cells they originally had a horizontal orientation rather than a typically vertical one.


Supersedure and emergency cells have the same construction: they are both formed from existing cells. They often differ in their number and placement, with emergency cells usually being produced in larger numbers as the colony is in something of a panic and attempts to maximise it's chances of a successful recovery.

Swarm cells have a different construction - they are custom-made *beforehand* - hence the bees choose to build them in places where space for their presence is available, such as at the periphery of half-drawn combs, along the bottom edge of existing combs, at the upper edge of any existing holes in combs, and so forth. It is because such q/cells are more fully visually exposed that they *appear* larger (and thus more desirable to the beekeeper).
LJ


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

little_john said:


> Supersedure and emergency cells have the same construction: they are both formed from existing cells. They often differ in their number and placement, with emergency cells usually being produced in larger numbers as the colony is in something of a panic and attempts to maximise it's chances of a successful recovery. LJ


I respectfully disagree LJ. Emergency cells are started from pre-existing worker larvae. The larvae are floated out of their cells and a queen cell is constructed. They do look smaller than swarm or supercedure cells because part of the cell is the old worker cell. Supercedure cells are constructed using a queen cup on the face of, or a projection on the comb. The queen lays an egg in the cup and the larva is reared as a queen.

My take on the difference.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> Supercedure cells are constructed using a queen cup on the face of, or a projection on the comb. The queen lays an egg in the cup and the larva is reared as a queen.


Mike, so there really is no difference between a supercedure cell and a swarm cell other than placement?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> I respectfully disagree LJ. Emergency cells are started from pre-existing worker larvae. The larvae are floated out of their cells and a queen cell is constructed. They do look smaller than swarm or supercedure cells because part of the cell is the old worker cell. Supercedure cells are constructed using a queen cup on the face of, or a projection on the comb. The queen lays an egg in the cup and the larva is reared as a queen.
> 
> My take on the difference.


So how does one know the difference, size of the cell?


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

I have had both excellent emergency queens and terrible ones. I think with any queen rearing it boils down to how well they are fed. Age of larvae also plays a role, but it is impossible for them to choose a larvae that is too old. Maybe less desirable larvae perhaps but not too old. That's why commercial queen rearing grafts: its about control of each aspect to produce excellent queens in large numbers. I think emergency queens can be good queens but you need to make sure they have resources to feed the queens and proper aged larvae to choose from. The bees do the hard part......


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

Sounds like these two nucs should do well.  Good to hear.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

snl said:


> So how does one know the difference, size of the cell?


You know the difference because emergency cells begin as worker cells. The cell extends outward and slightly downward from a worker cell
If you have emergency cells, the hive is queenless. The bees had a very short window of opportunity to chose worker larva and change the cells and feed into that of queen cells.

Swarm cells and supercedure cells are first constructed, then the queen lays an egg into them.
Their appearance is very distinct from emergency cells.
But don't feel bad. Even a "famous" author got the distinction wrong in a bee journal a few years back much to his later embarrassment....


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Here are emergency cells started when I put a frame with eggs and brood into a hive I thought was queenless. When the cells are started on old comb they dont tear down the cell walls much. If they have eggs or youngest larvae on fresh comb that is only partially drawn out the cell will hang flatter but still will not have the total construction vertical like one built for supercedure or swarm. You can really see the difference in cells that have been mostly torn down after the queens emerge


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

Nice pics. What did you use to get them?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Nikon 820, highest resolution, telephoto setting and from about 3 feet away. It gives you good depth of focus and keeps your shadow off the subject.

I have raised quite a few queens with the Snelgrove division board which basically creates well fed emergency cells. The author advises to cull any that are capped by the fourth day indicating they might have been started with older larvae but I have not had that happen. If they have the choice they will not use larvae of the age that compromises the queen.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

snl said:


> So how does one know the difference, size of the cell?


Yes, size matters. Emergency cells are shorter. Also, they're located at the edges of the brood pattern...that's where the youngest brood was located when the colony went broodless. So the cells are at the edges of the pattern. 

Supercedure cells are full size cells.Same size as swarm cells. Fewer than swarm. Often only a couple. Usually somewhere on the comb...not from a pre-existing larva, but on a projection on the comb. Sometimes on the margins of the comb...but again, only a couple. 

IDing swarm vs. supercedure...same as above, but you need to look at the colony, and try to figure it out. Is the colony obviously in swarm mode, or do they have issues. Poor pattern. Colony out of balance. It really isn't so difficult if you look.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

HarryVanderpool said:


> But don't feel bad. Even a "famous" author got the distinction wrong in a bee journal a few years back much to his later embarrassment....


Hard to believe, isn't it. I could name 3 or 4 who got it wrong. Makes you wonder how many bees they've actually handled.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> I respectfully disagree LJ. Emergency cells are started from pre-existing worker larvae. The larvae are floated out of their cells and a queen cell is constructed. They do look smaller than swarm or supercedure cells because part of the cell is the old worker cell. Supercedure cells are constructed using a queen cup on the face of, or a projection on the comb. The queen lays an egg in the cup and the larva is reared as a queen.
> 
> My take on the difference.


Hi Michael - hope this finds you well.

It would be a brave man indeed who disagreed with someone of your extensive experience ... but - what I've seen myself doesn't mirror what is being described.

I've taken the liberty of extracting a page of photographs from Wally Shaw's rather extensive article on this subject, which can be downloaded from: http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/wbka-booklet-english-PDF.pdf









As you can see in the above graphic, the swarm cells shown there are large (due to them being fully exposed), whereas the examples of supersedure and emergency cells are - for-all-intents-and-purposes the same size. There appears to be a slight difference in magnification between the photographs of supersedure and emergency cells, but even so, they're very much alike.

The example of supersedure cell shown there is typical of the supersedure cells which I tend to see at this apiary (although not that often, due to a fairly regular turnover of queens). That is fact. And I would therefore appeal to logic - how else would a reasonable size of queen emerge from such a cell, unless half of the queen-cell extends back into the comb's brood cell, as with emergency queen-cells ? But that of course must remain conjecture.

Shaw makes two points of interest - the first relates to supersedure cells being formed from existing eggs (or as I've suggested, from larvae):



> 2) *Supersedure Cells*
> Like swarm cells, these are typically vertical and are usually located on the face of the comb (see Figure 2). But *they can also have the same origin as emergency queen cells (see below) and be based on an egg laid in a worker cell (not a queen cup) *– they look like an emergency cell but are there for a quite different purpose.


The second point he makes - which I don't remember ever seeing myself - is that fully vertical emergency cells are sometimes formed upon new comb - presumably with the larvae being 'floated-out' as you've described for supersedure cells.

But thanks for the correction Michael, I'll take more care to qualify such statements in future ... 

'best
LJ


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Classic Swarm Cells ? 









Right size, quantity and location on the comb. 

Only they're not - these are emergency queen-cells. Perhaps this is what Wally Shaw was talking about - 'full-size' fully vertical emergency cells being drawn on brand new comb ?
LJ


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If the affective emergency happens when there are eggs or the youngest larvae in cells near the margins of partially drawn comb, then I imagine the queen cells constructed will be of very little difference from cells motivated by the supercedure urge. I would think the conditions that bring about supercedure can vary considerably and affect the time frame of decision making process by the bees. In simpler words could there be a combination of both emergency and supercedure cells in progress at the same time.

Bad weather and Carniolan bees can cause cells to be started that can make you scratch your head as to what motivated them.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

little_john said:


> Classic Swarm Cells ?
> 
> View attachment 39381
> 
> ...


Great illustration. I was just getting ready to go out and photograph the topbar hive/nuc that I have working on queen cells. The combs are new comb less than a month old with fresh eggs that went into a split with plenty of bees. The vast majority of beekeepers who look at the comb would call them swarm cells, but they are emergency cells, and they make fantastic queens. That is how I get all my queens, with what I call a "planned emergency replacement". Either pull the laying queen or make a split to a new box.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

little_john said:


> I've taken the liberty of extracting a page of photographs from Wally Shaw's rather extensive article on this subject,


Looking at Wally's photos: The swarm cells look like classic swarm cells, as do the emergency cells. The emergency cells are at the edge of the brood pattern, as I would expect them to be. The supercedure cell...yes it's the almost same length as the emergency cells. But it's different in my eyes. Note the irregularity in the comb structure just above and attached to the cell. I believe the bees built a queen cup on that irregularity and the queen laid an egg in it...whereas the emergency cells are on all worker cells.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

little_john said:


> Classic Swarm Cells ?


A foundationless comb like that isn't a fair comparison with a drawn worker comb. The youngest brood...which the bees would use to construct their emergency cells...were located near the comb edges...making emergency cells look like swarm cells.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

i agree with MP. Planned supercedures take place using an existing queen cup. I see it all the time. Also, perhaps they started more after the initial supercedure which will also be emergency cells, just depends on the situation. Now, if a queen suddenly fails, of course they have to make emergency cells, but I don't consider that superceding the queen, that's still an emergency replacement.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

little_john said:


> Supersedure and emergency cells have the same construction: they are both formed from existing cells. They often differ in their number and placement, with emergency cells usually being produced in larger numbers as the colony is in something of a panic and attempts to maximise it's chances of a successful recovery.


I agree with Michael. 

One another thing, which holds in most of the cases:
When there are eggs in the hive they are supersedure cells. When there are not, they are emergency cells.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Juhani Lunden said:


> One another thing, which holds in most of the cases:
> When there are eggs in the hive they are supersedure cells. When there are not, they are emergency cells.


Simple


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

so when part of a hive is made queenless for example by using a snelgrove board or a queen excluder, 

and queen cells are started from eggs floated out of worker cells in the part of the hive that the queen has been restricted from,

but the old queen is still laying nearby,

are those considered emergency or supercedure cells?


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> so when part of a hive is made queenless for example by using a snelgrove board or a queen excluder,
> 
> and queen cells are started from eggs floated out of worker cells in the part of the hive that the queen has been restricted from,
> 
> ...


queen excluder: supercedure instinct is in use
air and bee tight board: loss of a queen -> emergency cells


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

This pic came from a swarm that I hived on 3/31. This was the 2nd frame drawn out. I took this pic on 4/3. They pretty much immediately superseded the swarm queen. The 3 and 4 frame were partially drawn and had eggs laid. Also saw the swarm queen laying in frame 6 (drawn comb).


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

This pic of frame 6 was taken 9 days after I removed the swarm queen from the hive. This frame was left in the hive and not moved with the queen. The bees realized they were queenless and made emergency cells. Ignored the fact of the supersedure cell/queen in above pic.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I really don't understand the above two comments! 

ETA, not Spur9's comments with pics, but the preceeding two by squarepeg and Juhani Lunden.

A queen excluder makes the bees supercede their queen? How does that work if the worker bees can go through it freely? I rarely use a QEx, but when I do it has never prompted a supercedure. 

What is an an "air and bee tight board"? That's not a Snelgrove or double screen board, which is only bee-tight.

What's going on above a Snelgrove (or double-screen board) is the creation of emergency cells. While the bees may be able scent some of the parent colony's pheromones, but they no longer have direct contact with the QMP since the double screening prevents workers from passing it on. 

Given availability of the right resources (eggs and very young larvae) I trust the bees to know which to use to get high quality queens started and well-fed through their larval stage. The location, shape, and even the apparent size, of the queen cell seem to be secondary to the bees making a good selection and feeding that larva royal jelly. I'm betting they are really good at that. 

Nancy


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i've been wondering about this too enj.

even without the excluder, i find that when i open up/pyramid up the broodnest and make the nest area so large that the queen can't keep up, that 'supercedure' cells sometimes get started, even though the queen is laying good solid patterns of brood.

when i split the queen out of a hive like that the colony goes on with her as normal with no more supercedure cells.

it makes me think that the trigger for the supercedure is that the queen isn't laying cells as fast as the house bees are preparing cells for her to lay in, even though it's because of my doings and not really the queen's fault.

so perhaps with an excluder (didn't know snelgroves were double screened) something like that is going on? :scratch:


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Nancy, when you separate brood from the queen via an excluder, the bees above the excluder think they're queenless. The start emergency cells, I set up my cell builders like that. Something like 60 during grafting season. Brood above an excluder for 10 day. When inspected on grafting day, at least 25% have emergency cells.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

enjambres said:


> I
> What's going on above a Snelgrove (or double-screen board) is the creation of emergency cells. While the bees may be able scent some of the parent colony's pheromones, but they no longer have direct contact with the QMP since the double screening prevents workers from passing it on.
> A queen excluder makes the bees supercede their queen?


Normal cellbuilder, queen below, queen excluder on top of her boxes, queen cells (to be built) above it, is using the supersedure instinct of bees. This is very basics of beekeeping.

I did not know what a snelgrove board was. You are right, I added the comment airtight just to be clear that the queen substance cannot go through, then it is emergency cell building instinc what arises in the bees.


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

So, if I move a frame of brood into the box above the queen excluder grate, the bees will create emergency cells? Even though the queen smell is still flowing throughout the hive and the workers can go back and forth?


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

I guess the $10 question is a well developed emergency cell that is well fed and cared for as good as grafted cells? I think they can be from a strong colony, even more so when employing Mel's OTS to break the lower half of the cell wall. Done off a weak or struggling colony of course the results will go down hill......


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Jadeguppy said:


> So, if I move a frame of brood into the box above the queen excluder grate, the bees will create emergency cells? Even though the queen smell is still flowing throughout the hive and the workers can go back and forth?


Sometimes, but not always.


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

Jadeguppy said:


> So, if I move a frame of brood into the box above the queen excluder grate, the bees will create emergency cells? Even though the queen smell is still flowing throughout the hive and the workers can go back and forth?


I am following the management style of member clyderoad this spring. He moves the queen down into the low box in the spring and then adds an excluder. But he checks for queen cells in the box above the excluder after a few days. If the queen was laying in that box, there is a possibility that the nurse bees tending brood might think they are queenless. Here is his reply to my question of why he checks for queen cells: 

"The half was on top of the deep all winter and the bees establish the brood nest or part of the brood nest in it coming out of winter. Although I wait to put the half over a QE until I see the queen beginning to move down into the deep and the brood in the half is mostly capped there is a very good chance there are queen rearing aged larvae in the half that could be made into queen cells by the bees when it's placed over the QE. When it's time to shake bees down into the deep from the half I don't examine the frames in the half other than to see that most of the brood is capped and healthy. I don't want them making a queen above the excluder so a week later I check the half over the QE for queen cells and destroy them if found. Stray queen cells wreak havoc on my management. Since the queen is below the QE, after I cut any queen cells I find in the half in a weeks time after I've shaken the bees down, I don't have to worry about it anymore. I find this easier and faster than closely examining every cell in the half before I place it over the QE. I have missed to many larvae of queen rearing age in the past to trust myself."

I think it falls in line with Michael Palmer's post about the bees thinking they are queenless. The queen scent possibly not being distributed enough once the excluder is in place. I have done this to a dozen or so hives so far and have not had queen cells built yet. I have 2 left to check that I moved the queen below an excluder this past weekend.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Jadeguppy said:


> So, if I move a frame of brood into the box above the queen excluder grate, the bees will create emergency cells?


for about the 10 times or so i've done it (like clyde, moving the queen down below and leaving brood above the excluder) i've found cells a week later in roughly half the hives.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Clayton Huestis said:


> I guess the $10 question is a well developed emergency cell that is well fed and cared for as good as grafted cells? I think they can be from a strong colony, even more so when employing Mel's OTS to break the lower half of the cell wall. Done off a weak or struggling colony of course the results will go down hill......


good question clay. here's a bit of a review mb has on his site:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesemergencyqueens.htm


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Jadeguppy said:


> So, if I move a frame of brood into the box above the queen excluder grate, the bees will create emergency cells? Even though the queen smell is still flowing throughout the hive and the workers can go back and forth?


As Michael said they will make cells, sometimes. They are created because the bees feel something is wrong with the queen and this is because there is too little queen substance around. The amount of queen substance above queen excluder, however, varies. And so does the bees willingness to build cells. 

If there is a good queen, lot of bees going through the excluder and bees are not very eager to build cells (swarmy bees are, non swarmy are not), then there will be no cells built.
If there is less good queen, less bees going through the excluder and a bit swarmier bees, they will build them. 

But in all cases they are not emergency cell, but supersedure cells, because only the total lack of queen substance activates emergency cell building instinct, and does it in all cases.


Supersedure instinct to build cells above excluder gets considerably stronger after the excluder has been in place for 4 days. All eggs hatch and now all bees are convinced that there is something wrong with the queen, even though they seem to get some queen subestance below excluder.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I guess I sort of understand at least part of this....

I've never knowingly plunked a queen excluder between brood boxes, only between brood areas and supers, so that explains why my bees have never gone into queen cell making mode above the excluder.

But isn't it frequently suggested that dividing a multiple-box brood nest with an excluder is a way to determine which box has the queen in it by seeing which has eggs after three days? (This would be in lieu of actually finding the queen.) If what you report about an excluder prompting initiation of queen cells is common, wouldn't that mean the beekeeper would also often find a whole mess of unexpected trouble in the box (es) without the queen? 

And, this is a question Juhani: why would they be considered supercedure cells, rather than emergency cells? That really baffles me!

I must be unusually dense today. Think I'll go out to my bee yard and ask the bees about this.

Nancy


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

enjambres said:


> I guess I sort of understand at least part of this....
> 
> I've never knowingly plunked a queen excluder between brood boxes, only between brood areas and supers, so that explains why my bees have never gone into queen cell making mode above the excluder.
> 
> ...


Yes you will get a mess. Sometimes two queens and huge ares of brood in the harvesting day, and little honey, big disappointments happen...

To your question ( I just wrote in my previous message):

They are not emergency cells because they do not build them always above excluder, it depends on the amount of queen substance present and the willingness of bees.

Emergency cells are, by definition, cells built in a case of a queen loss and they build them always. 


Supersedure cells are considered to have better quality. In a a queenless situation cells are built 100% sure. This is why queen producers use queenless starters and queenright finishers, have done that ever since when.


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

Has anyone, either by accident or for the benefit of science, allowed queen cells (made above an excluder) to hatch out while the queen is below? Does a swarm occur? Does the virgin queen seek out and kill the old queen? Do the workers kill the old queen? Is the old queen abandoned? Other results?


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

Juhani Lunden said:


> They are not emergency cells because they do not build them always above excluder, it depends on the amount of queen substance present and the willingness of bees.
> 
> Emergency cells are, by definition, cells built in a case of a queen loss and they build them always.


I'm not getting the absolute logic behind this. If they are building the cell above and excluder because they no longer have a queen in that area, doesn't it meet the reason for an emergency cell? Also, the method of building indicates an emergency, not a pre-planned event such as supercedure.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

It does seem possible that there needs to be a/some different classification(s) of queens reared by honeybees when human intervention is involved, other than just swarm/supercede/emergency. I do not underestimate that the bees know that Mr. or Mrs Beekeeper has re-arranged the hive, and that they know that for any of the 3 reasons they normally make queens, it's just time to make one/some queen cells for whatever reason.

When we import several frames of capped brood 10 days before grafting, we've added a supercharger to the smallblock. When we feed them pollen substitute, we've tilted the pinball machine. When we Cloake Board or Double Screen Board them, we are trying to trick their senses. Hybrid reasons for rearing queens are involved.

We seem to get excellent results when we combine colonies to make a strong hive 2 weeks before the main nectar flow, when we start after drone cells are capped, when there is a good strong nectar / pollen flow, when we import enough capped brood 10 days before grafting the number of queens the CB colony will support, when we feed the "Hello" out of them, and when we cut cells out before any early-hatching virgin queens can set about destroying their sister queens.

Doing some or all of the above alterations to the normal beehive calendar helps to take advantage of combined swarming impulse, supercedure response, and the exact timing can be tripped by removing their access to mama queen thus triggering emergency response. Kept honeybees really need a/some multiple-impulse category(-ies) of queens.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I think they are emergency cells in every case. The cells are started from pre-existing worker larvae. The bees start the cells in brood above the excluder because they think they are queenless.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@Juhani,

I completely understand how "queen producers use queenless starters and queenright finishers, have done that ever since when."

That's a completely different situation and it's not where I am hung up.

I am hung up on why a queen cell started above a queen excluder from a previously laid egg or very young larvae in a worker cell could possibly be anything other than functionally identical to an emergency cell. Even if the bees sensing a lack of localized QMP above the excluder are reacting in the same way as a bees in colony where there is a deficit of QMP that would trigger development of primary supercedure cells. 

In other words I can understand what might make them want to make queens cells above the excluder (and how their motivation to do so might be the same as in the case of supercedure) but I can't wrap my head around how previously-laid egg and/or newly hatched larvae above the excluder are really any different from previously-laid egg and/or newly hatched larvae used to make emergency cells in a suddenly queenless environment that has the same eggs and young brood resources.

Are you saying that somehow the bees in the excluder-situation would delay starting queen cells until they had newly hatched eggs that were always raised as queens, whereas bees in an emergency situation wouldn't do that? How do we know that bees making e-cells (assuming an abundance of both eggs and young-enough larvae) wouldn't do so as well? And instead would just pounce on the first marginally acceptable worker larvae they came 
to and try to stuff royal jelly down their mouths in a desperate attempt to requeen themsleves? I think bees are smarter than that.

Please note I am not talking about a grafting situation above a queenless starter box, we're talking about the effect of inserting a queen excluder between brood boxes where the queen is still below the excluder. 

If the bees make queen cells above the excluder, I can't see why these cells wouldn't be functionally, biologically, physiologically or developmentally the same as emergency cells, even if the motivation to start them is similar, or even the same as, when there is a failing queen with reduced QMP triggering a supercedure. They may be "superceding" but with the queen excluder in place there's no way they can get the queen upstairs to lay some eggs in "supercedure" cells. They have exactly the same resources to work with as any split, namely the pre-existing eggs and young larvae.

Do we know how bees go about selecting candidate-larvae for making queen cells in an emergency situation?

Nancy


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

The only logic is the one I already said: instincts make bees work, and it is three different situations when their instincts make them build queen cells, and according to these instincts are the cells named.

their instincts make them to start swarm preparations, they build swarm cells
their instincts tell their queen is failing (not enough queen substance), they build supersedure cells
their instincts react to total lack of queen substance, they build emergency cells

Above excluder there is the situation when part of the workers might think they have a failing queen, that is why they sometimes make cells. 

I wish my bees would do that more often, it would make queen rearing much easier, but usually when i put queen excluder, they do not make cells above it. Even if they do, they very often tore them down before they hatch, another proof that they are supersedure cells which were made because some bees thought that they need a queen, others did not.

The amount of queen substance was enough for some bees to tore them all down. As I wrote the amount of queen substance and the willingness to build cells (= for practical beekeeper this is the same as willingness to swarm) decides whether thay make cells or not.

We cannot name cells according to their looks, because that varies so much.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> I think they are emergency cells in every case. The cells are started from pre-existing worker larvae. The bees start the cells in brood above the excluder because they think they are queenless.


My experienced co-worker just confirmed this.
Supersedure cell eggs are laid by the queen into a cup in an action of renewing the colony, not raised out of worker larvae in case of emergency. So queen cells above an excluder are emergency cells always.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

When you do a sudden and total separation of bees from the queens pheremones you will have cells started on everything from drooping eggs to probably 2 or 3 day old larvae. According to snelgrove, older age bracket bees are less discrimating than the youger nurse bees and will start converting older larvae. From projected emergence timing and the tendency for first one out to be the succeeding queen we would tend to get less desirable queens from older larvae: that would be counter productive. I have seen it written that bees may cull these cells to cure that problem. I dont see that happening with the double screen board and doubt it would above an excluder either.

The degree of panic may well be different between bees separated only by an excluder, by a double screen (Snelgrove) board, and that created by killing the queen or total separation. In using the snelgrove board the timing of capping of the cells seems to suggest that the bees wait a couple of days and choose to build cells around what would have been eggs at the time of initial weaning from the queen pheremone. In other words a net result closer to supercedure than emergency conditions.

I think we are quibbling and splitting hairs over very subtle differences of why the bees do as they do, and whether it makes any significant quality difference in the queens produced. I think we can agree that taking the age of the comb and egg placement to extremes can blur the line in appearance between emergency and supercedure cells. Similarly with the question of whether there is any difference in quality between a classic supercedure and queen cells induced by partial separation from the queens pheremones.

I would bet at least a nickel that there will be a difference between Italian and Carniolan bees in how predictably they will start cells when separated by an excluder.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

crofter said:


> I would bet at least a nickel that there will be a difference between Italian and Carniolan bees in how predictably they will start cells when separated by an excluder.


good discussion here, many thanks to all for contributing.

frank, what do you predict the difference might be between italians and carniolans?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think the Carnies are more likely to start cells. This time of year with them a cold spell can cause the queen to cut back laying and they will start cells. No way are they ready to swarm. I guess something just didnt "smell right" to them; perhaps the cluster gets split. I have seen discussions where people claim something infallible with their local stock seems impossible for someone from an area with a generally different bee stock.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

interesting. your observations tend agree with my hunch that a good queen artificially presented with more prepared cells to lay in than she can keep up with might be a trigger for supercedure.

in the case of an excluder or snelgrove board the workers don't get the opportunity to make a cup beforehand, so they do the best they can with what they have to work with.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

SiWolKe said:


> My experienced co-worker just confirmed this.
> Supersedure cell eggs are laid by the queen into a cup in an action of renewing the colony, not raised out of worker larvae in case of emergency. So queen cells above an excluder are emergency cells always.


Well said.
It isn't about appearance; it's about origin.
Each cell type is the result of colony impulse.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Well said.
> It isn't about appearance; it's about origin.
> Each cell type is the result of colony impulse.


Exactly, and these impulses are

-lack of queen substance (emergency cells)
- inadequate amount of queen substance (supersedure cells and swarm cells)

In a queen right colony there is always queen substance around. Bees go through excluder all the time.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Juhani Lunden said:


> In a queen right colony there is always queen substance around. Bees go through excluder all the time.


Yes they do. But how often is open brood suddenly elevated above an excluder. Not a usual thing. Bees carry nectar through an excluder and have no brood above.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i believe it is generally accepted that better quality queen cells result from using a queenright finisher. this is typically accomplished by placing uncapped cells above an excluder over a queenright colony.

in the case of starting cells in a queenless upper chamber it seems likely that the bees above the excluder or snelgrove would be aware of the queen's presence below, and so just like the differences seen with the finisher i don't think we can completely discount the effect of having a 'queenright' starter.

so i agree with juhani's assertion that starting cells above an excluder or snelgrove in a queenright hive is qualitatively different than when the queen is completely removed from a hive and emergency cells are initiated.

for the past couple of weeks i have been harvesting cells in brood supers a week after pushing the queen down below an excluder into an empty deep.

most of the good looking larger cells are already capped suggesting they were started from larave. 

i am finding these at the bottoms of the frames and in the burr comb areas where fresh drone comb has been drawn but not laid in. by appearance these cells are indistinguishable from other swarm cells and supercedure cells that i see.

these were not floated out of a worker cell, although i do have some cells here and there that were. these tended to be smaller and uncapped. i'll have to pay more attention to this next time i'm out.

there has been some discussion on bee-l recently about weather or not worker bees will move a fertilized egg or small larva to a queen cup. i think what i may be seeing is the fashioning of a new queen cup in soft comb.

either way, these cells were made by very strong colonies during a very intense pollen and nectar flow and at the time in the season that swarming starts up. they look great. we'll see what kind of colonies they produce.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> Yes they do. But how often is open brood suddenly elevated above an excluder. Not a usual thing. Bees carry nectar through an excluder and have no brood above.


You are right they don´t. But queen substance goes through excluder with the bees. Bees change food and queen substance as their basic instinct.


This very interesting and rewarding discussion is mainly caused because an excluder does not belong into a natural beehive.

We cannot know what goes on in the bees brains but man has studied the behavior of bees, and the types of queen cells they make.

Definitions say that different cell types are caused by definite colony impulses in a wild living beehive.

Then comes a beekeeper into the picture and puts and an excluder between brood. I imagine some bees, if they could think, would say "What the heck is that?"


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

SP, I just yesterday moved a medium full of mostly capped brood above an excluder in attempt to return it to being a super. I'll check Sunday to see if the bees have built any qc's in a new section of comb that had eggs in it. That would be a bonus.


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## Adamd (Apr 18, 2009)

little_john said:


> Classic Swarm Cells ?
> 
> View attachment 39381
> 
> ...


The queencells you refer to in the attached picture look to be made as a result of a queen-rearing exercise by the beekeeper where brood is put into a queenless colony - not the same as emergency queencells raised after a queen goes missing from a colony or after a split. So therse are essentially emergency queencells but planned for by the beekeeper. Confusing or what!


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## Adamd (Apr 18, 2009)

SiWolKe said:


> My experienced co-worker just confirmed this.
> Supersedure cell eggs are laid by the queen into a cup in an action of renewing the colony, not raised out of worker larvae in case of emergency. So queen cells above an excluder are emergency cells always.


Not the case.
Queencells raises as a result of queenright queenraising are classed as supercedure as the queen pheromone is reduced enough in the top box where the brood is (and not the queen) that the bees think the queen is on the way out so the beekeeper uses this reduced queen pheromone to his advantage. 
In addition I have had queencells produced in the super above the queen excluder on a few occasions. these are usually just above the excluder and in the few cases I have seen were as a result of usual swarming preparations.


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## Adamd (Apr 18, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> Sometimes, but not always.


Agreed. It depends on a number of factors - some of which we probably don't know much about but a young strong queen has more queen 'substance' i.e. pheromone that an old girl so there will less liklihood of queencells being made. Size of colony, time of year, flavour of bee will all affect whether a queencell will be produced or not.


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## Adamd (Apr 18, 2009)

Spur9 said:


> Has anyone, either by accident or for the benefit of science, allowed queen cells (made above an excluder) to hatch out while the queen is below? Does a swarm occur? Does the virgin queen seek out and kill the old queen? Do the workers kill the old queen? Is the old queen abandoned? Other results?


The virgin will not be able to get to the queen so they will potentially co-exist. If there are other queencells in the hive - most likely, then the old queen below the excluder will probably fly if the other queencells were raised as a result of the swarming impulse. If not, then my expectation is that the trapped virgin will stay as such and finish up laying drones. However if there was just one queencell, that would indicate supercedre and if the virgin was not mated and therefore unable to take over the colony properly, the bees would probably try to make another queen.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Spur9 said:


> Has anyone, either by accident or for the benefit of science, allowed queen cells (made above an excluder) to hatch out while the queen is below? Does a swarm occur? Does the virgin queen seek out and kill the old queen? Do the workers kill the old queen? Is the old queen abandoned? Other results?


Has happened numerous times by me. It has never lead to swarming, but our buckfast is very slow to swarm. I don´t have upper entrances, and that is why the result is usually dead unmated queen on the excluder. 

Sometimes by unusually hot weather (here in Finland something above 25 C) I move the topmost box 5 cm back, to make the hive more easily ventilated. In these cases there is sometimes a new laying queen with lots of capped brood above excluder in the time of extracting, old queen under the excluder. 

Never has the birth of a young queen above excluder had any effect on the old queen.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Are supercedure cells started with eggs layed in cups and emergency cells started by using a larvae always?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

squarepeg said:


> i am finding these at the bottoms of the frames and in the burr comb areas where fresh drone comb has been drawn but not laid in. by appearance these cells are indistinguishable from other swarm cells and supercedure cells that i see.
> 
> these were not floated out of a worker cell, although i do have some cells here and there that were. these tended to be smaller and uncapped. i'll have to pay more attention to this next time i'm out.


i pulled a few frames containing queen cells started and finished above excluded queenright colony.

i observed another case where a near perfect vertical cup as long or longer that what i get grafting located in freshly drawn drone comb that has not been laid in yet.

it was obvious that the head of the cell did not start out a cup, but rather a drone cell that had the bottom notched out by the bees.

evidence for egg moving? maybe.

what to call a cell like that? emergency supercedure?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I would like to know the mechanism whereby the workers can convince a queen to lay a fertilized egg in such a cell when she may not know she is compromised and in fact might not be.

We know that it is not the most common routine though; we also know that workers moving eggs (if it is so) has to be very out of the ordinary. I think for practical purposes M.P.'s description or definition will do the job; still I think that it is possible the line gets blurred when the driving conditions have very subtle difference. If the bees sometimes do make cells, and sometimes do not, it is clearly not a blatant emergency for them.

I would like to see comparative ovariole counts on queens produced in cups by classical supercedure conditions, and those of queens that were produced under bounteous conditions from modified worker cells and motivated by a gentle separation such as with an excluder or double screen board.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> i pulled a few frames containing queen cells started and finished above excluded queenright colony.
> 
> i observed another case where a near perfect vertical cup as long or longer that what i get grafting located in freshly drawn drone comb that has not been laid in yet.
> 
> ...


I don´t think the bees move eggs but I think they manage the raising of new queens by eliminating some which are at the wrong places.

I think the bees manage the supercedure too, not the queen ( in case there is no excluder). The queen just lays eggs and if a fertilized egg is in the cup they use it. Perhaps the bees can influence this somehow.

The queen, or in case she is excluded, a laying worker uses the queen cup and the bees do what they think best, raise something.
I had someone tell me he found 3 drone pupa in a capped queen cell. Must be a try of a laying worker`s hive to raise a new queen, probably the larvae was too old or such.

And what about grafting? This is the emergency action per se, if it is claimed a supercedure or swarm cell is the best because the new queens are raised out of eggs from the beginning.
So the grafted queens are not as good? Tell that to a breeder.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

SiWolKe said:


> Are supercedure cells started with eggs layed in cups and emergency cells started by using a larvae always?


That's what I believe


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> it was obvious that the head of the cell did not start out a cup, but rather a drone cell that had the bottom notched out by the bees.
> 
> evidence for egg moving? maybe.


I don't think so. I see eggs in cups above the excluder...in my cell builders. No queen above the excluder. I believe they are worker laid eggs.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

crofter said:


> I would like to see comparative...


i'll agree that by using grafts and manipulating conditions it's possible to produce large numbers of cells that on average may be better fed and end up larger than what the bees come up with most of the time on their own.

i never see naturally produced cells that look like the one's in lauri's photos.

the question is how good do they have to be? by the references provided in mb's review linked above it appears that beekeepers have been debating this for awhile.

i'm likely through with manipulating for swarm prevention for this year and don't anticipate having to move any more queens down below an excluder until next season.

the remaining nucs i make up this year will received grafted cells so i'll have a chance to make some casual comparisons.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Feeding beyond what is necessary to achieve full genetic potential may be wasted unless the appearance of the developing cell can be turned to economic benefit . Is a _"sumo wrestler"_ queen better? There is no question though that underfed larva pushing three days from the egg, will not give good results.

I guess this angle is a bit off the topic of the original post; identifying definitively the cause of cell production by its appearance and position on the comb. That certainly could be of benefit to the beekeeper for spotting potential problems, and knowing whether or not the situation needs his intervention.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i was pushed to caught up with the beework and didn't even consider trying to photodocument the process. next time i'll have someone in the yard with me doing that.

by leaving the 2 - 3 best looking (actually _nice_ looking) cells the bees and the emerging queens will by process of natural selection choosing (hopefully) the most fit.


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

squarepeg said:


> by leaving the 2 - 3 best looking (actually _nice_ looking) cells the bees and the emerging queens will by process of natural selection choosing (hopefully) the most fit.


This is something I have been thinking about. When using queen cells to start a nuc, many people only put one cell in there. I was wondering if that could have an adverse effect on getting the best queen. For those that re-queen each year, it isn't an issue, but if you are trying beekeeping as a full husbandry experience, having the best does matter. Do you usually use multiple cells? I wonder if that could be part of the reason for your chemical free success.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Jadeguppy said:


> Do you usually use multiple cells?


the important point is that the bees usually use mulitple cells.

i'm trying my best to make management decisions that have the least impact on what the colonies are trying to do on their own.

it's not hurting that it's prime time for them to be building swarm cells anyway. many of the cells i am harvesting above the excluder look more like swarm cells than anything,

i.e. these cells are located toward the bottom of the frame in areas freshly drawn drone comb that was jammed across the gap from the bottom of one box and the top of the next one down.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> it's not hurting that it's prime time for them to be building swarm cells anyway.


I think this argumentation is very important! To use the swarm urge time to do the managements and to follow the bees.


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## viclozan (Apr 24, 2018)

enjambres said:


> I really don't understand the above two comments!
> 
> "ETA, not Spur9's comments with pics, but the preceeding two by squarepeg and Juhani Lunden.
> 
> ...


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> I don't think so. I see eggs in cups above the excluder...in my cell builders. No queen above the excluder. I believe they are worker laid eggs.


good call michael, you were correct.

you've seen this one play out before haven't you? 

i really appreciate you taking the time to make me consider that possibility. i've only seen 'fake' queen cells a couple of times and those were in laying worker hives.

so instead of letting those nucs 'cook' for 3 weeks and checking for mated queens i went out this afternoon and found that a couple of those nice looking cells had already been torn down.

i'm guessing the drone eggs were already in the freshly drawn drone cells when i placed the excluder.

so no evidence for moving eggs or larvae observed, and that the 'queenless' space in the hive above the excluder would result in a queen cell with a drone egg supports the view that the cells produced above the excluder are more emergency driven than supercedure driven.

again, many thanks for chiming in michael.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>evidence for egg moving? maybe.

My problem with the theory of egg moving (besides explaining how they would glue the egg down) is:

1) No one has ever documented observing eggs being moved by bees that I have read. Huber went to great lengths to set up scenarios where moving eggs would be the only hope the bees had of getting a queen and they never moved any.
2) There is always an explanation that has been observed before. Laying workers are one explanation. Even if the queen cell develops into a queen, thelytoky has been observed on occasion over several centuries now.

Now if someone could get footage of bees moving and gluing an egg into a queen cell, I would accept that... but as long as it can be explained by something that HAS been observed, I think the odds are that method is more likely.


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## izulagambul (Dec 19, 2017)

Nice job from you guys.

Nnamani.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

izulagambul said:


> Nice job from you guys.
> 
> Nnamani.



many thanks nnamani, welcome to beesource!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

so it turned out that several of the 'nice' cells i put into my mating nucs were 'fakes' made with a drone egg after all. lesson learned.

next year i'll take the time to hive tool notch below bona fide worker larvae.


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## tpope (Mar 1, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> so it turned out that several of the 'nice' cells i put into my mating nucs were 'fakes' made with a drone egg after all. lesson learned.
> 
> next year i'll take the time to hive tool notch below bona fide worker larvae.


Hope springs eternal ehh???

So tell me and others that might need an education too. How did you determine that the cells were just drones that the bees wanted to be queens?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

just a guess t, but the cells were formed in freshly drawn drone comb and they appeared to have been torn down instead of emerged from.

that, and no queens to be found but laying workers instead.

i simply culled the wrong cells. there were smaller angled emergency cells formed by the floating of worker larvae out of worker cells, but they weren't as pretty as the 'fakes' so i culled them.

i had a good return on the first couple of 'batches'. these were done prior the new drone comb appearing and i didn't have to cull any cells.

i gave up on notching after our experience with the lemonade hive last year because i had more cells made where i hadn't notched.

but i used the corner of the hive tool instead of the flat side and wasn't doing it right. after finally finding some photos i see what i need to do from now on.

http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/Helpful_Tips_For_Notching-web.pdf


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

These are what "planned emergency" queen cells look like in my topbar hive. I let them draw new comb and then pull the queen after a number of days. I had 12 on this bar alone. Made nice plump queen cells that I cut out and put in nucs. All emerged and I hope to peak at them on Saturday if it ever quits raining to see if I have eggs yet.









I did find a "surprise" on one bar. They took a drone cell and tried to turn it into a queen cell. I like to call these "drag queen". They usually get torn down before they emerge. A virgin had already emerged in the hive that this was in, so I just left it alone


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

those are really nice looking cells ruthie, perfectly fashioned out of that fresh new soft comb.


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## tpope (Mar 1, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> just a guess t, but the cells were formed in freshly drawn drone comb and they appeared to have been torn down instead of emerged from.
> 
> that, and no queens to be found but laying workers instead.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the reply squarepeg. Your observations are like mine. I am trying to decide where to leave alone and where to intervene.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

anytime t. 

i'm liking the use of the five frame mediums and how the use of them fits in with checkerboarding and pushing the queen down below the excluder.

i'm going to build 10 more of them this winter.

i've been checking for a mated queen three weeks after making up the nucs and the queenright ones already need more space at that point.

so some of those got combined with another 5 frame medium that ended up without a queen, some were given an empty 5 frame deep nuc box underneath, and some were combined as is to requeen colonies that failed at supercedure.

one nuc that failed to get a queen simply got another frame with a cell on it to try again.

at any rate all that is done for this season putting me with all 24 of the production hives queenright and getting heavy with honey along with a handful of nucs on the side for 'spares'.

we'll be getting in the honey harvest mode here in the next couple of weeks or so.


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

squarepeg, have you tried 3 frame medium mating nucs?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Jadeguppy said:


> squarepeg, have you tried 3 frame medium mating nucs?


have not tried them jg.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Spur9 said:


> Has anyone, either by accident or for the benefit of science, allowed queen cells (made above an excluder) to hatch out while the queen is below? Does a swarm occur? Does the virgin queen seek out and kill the old queen? Do the workers kill the old queen? Is the old queen abandoned? Other results?


Spur 9, it depends  no hard and fast answer. IF you have multiple entrances the new virgin May go out mate come back and start laying.
IF she comes back to the part with the old Queen they may or may not fight. If she can when young and spunky get to the old queen she usually kills her. If the top box where she hatches, has no entrance and she cannot get out she my just start laying drones, unfertilized eggs.
So several factors at play, can she find a way out and back? can she get to the other queen? each scenario has different results. Worst one I had the virgin was in the top , no upper entrance, the queens fought on the excluder, the old queen lost, the new queen could not get out to mate and went drone layer in the supers. So it was a mess. BYW the drones could not get out either. I now use an upper entrance for somewhat that reason. I have also had a small swarm move into the top part via the upper entrance.  you will be surprised some day even if you think you have seen it all. Sorry,, to answer your question, Yes they could swarm.
GG


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Spur9 said:


> Has anyone, either by accident or for the benefit of science, allowed queen cells (made above an excluder) to hatch out while the queen is below? Does a swarm occur? Does the virgin queen seek out and kill the old queen? Do the workers kill the old queen? Is the old queen abandoned? Other results?


Well, I've now done this, by accident. Bit of a long story, but worth telling.

My cell builder setup this year was a cloak board installation similar to that shown in the videos done by University of Guelph on youtube. I had a deep below the cloak board, with queen etc. Above the cloak board I have another deep. I did a graft on May 8 after prepping the builder. Builder prep involved going thru all 20 frames checking for cells, then shaking most of the nurse bees from the bottom box into the top box and inserting the slide. The intent for that one was to do splits on the May long weekend, so cells would be ready for placing in splits on May 18. I only did one bar, 15 cups. Slide came out the following morning, and then on the second day following I checked for acceptance. I had 13 out of 15 accepted, nice looking with jzbz cups pretty much filled to overflowing with jelly. I use deeps divided 4 ways for mating nucs, 5 half size frames in each compartment. I had 6 new queens in mating nucs from a previous graft, and wanting to expand mating nucs dramatically this year, so the original plan was strait forward. From a dozen full size colonies make up 6 strong splits by taking 2 frames of brood from each colony, the new ones would have 4 frames of capped brood each with a new queen out of the mating nucs, then split all the mating nucs and place cells. All of this was scheduled for Saturday the 18th expecting cells to emerge on the 20th.

Life got in the way. At 2am on the 17th, Gerry had a heart attack and in the morning was airlifted to a hospital in the big city for an urgent procedure. My wife drove down and we were expecting that I would be released from the hospital in a couple days, she would take me home again. Well there were complications and they kept me in the hospital, so I told her to go home on the 19th, we will worry about my transportation when they finally do release me. Morning of the 20th she texted asking if she should do something with the cell bar, I said 'just leave it, first out will kill the rest, let the bees sort it out, we have higher priority things to deal with right now'. About 2pm on the 20th she texted me a picture, cell builder was swarming. I got home on the 23rd in the evening. She went out on the 24th mid morning, retrieved the cell bar frame and brought it back to the house, brushing some bees off on the way. When she got to the house the bar of cells had 12 perfectly emerged and one that didn't emerge. We spotted 4 queens walking on that frame, which I promptly put in cages. Now wondering how many she brushed off on the way back to the house, she wasn't paying attention to see if they were queens. I'm restricted from lifting boxes for a couple months, so later in the afternoon my wife put a chair down beside the builder, she did all the lifting and I was looking at frames. Between us, we found a couple more queens that went into cages. No sign of the old queen in the bottom box but there were a bunch of swarm cells, so we removed the cloak board and split that colony 3 ways with cells. She then proceeded to split all of the mating nucs and we released those virgin queens each into a new mating nuc. FWIW, a week later all of them were laying.

So what did we learn from the event ? Well, everything we read and thought about cells emerging and virgins duking it out to the death was shown to happen differently. Those virgin queens did not fight it out to have one survivor. Reality is, at least 6 out of 12 were still in the colony 4 days after emerging. How many ended up brushed off the frame while my wife was walking back to the house, we will never know. I still have the cell bar, I should go take a picture of the cell bar with 12 emerged cells. Another interesting tidbit, when we were going thru the top box a friend had popped over to help sort out the bee yard since I cant do any lifting and we are in the heart of swarm season here. When we were caging those queens in the top box he commented on how he had never seen virgins so large before, was wondering if we actually had mated queens. Unlikely as they had only been out of the cell for 4 days, but who knows. What I do know, we really have to re-think a few things of what we understand to be 'cast in stone' as to bee behaviour.


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## JLSwin (Mar 16, 2021)

All I can say about the matter, and I started bee keeping in the early 90s, that the bees know what they are doing. Given the right opportunities they will turn out the better queens. The best and most productive queen was one raised by the emergency cell method. The frame you give them should not be old comb. They should be teaming with, plenty of nurse bees, nectar, and pollen, and they will get the job done. Going on some of these forms make me think some are just thumping themselves on the chest, to make themselves feel good. All the female bees start out the Same way. They are all eggs for three days, at which time they hatch and become larves. They are all fed Royal Jelly, the first three days at which time the workers are then fed necter and pollen, the nurse bees continue the be fed Royal Jelly until the cell is capped. So please check your facts before making unfounded statements. BTW, knowing ones way around google, serves to make anyone intelligent. I like the statements that at "which point they turn the workers into queens", which in truth it is the other way around.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

A good example of why the answer "It all depends" is the better one. Absolute statements have many apparent contradictions. There are many shades of gray between black and white.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

JLSwin said:


> All the female bees start out the Same way. They are all eggs for three days, at which time they hatch and become larves. They are all fed Royal Jelly, the first three days at which time the workers are then fed necter and pollen,


while they are all fed jelly, the queen larva are fed much more of it, and that makes the difference, and the earlyer in life it starts, the better the queen (ie swarm cells are fed as a queen as soon as the larve hatches)
One of the main factors is the size of the cell dicting the food volume and bigger cells get more food placed in them
look at a 24h queen cell that was grafted at 12h and you will see a massive difference in the amount of jelly compared to other 36h larva being fed as workers.. this is why larva started older actually emerge later then young larva started at the same time(despite people saying the reverse) as they have to play "catch up" , but they don't catch up all the way and end up being poorer quality queens on advarge.




https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2020.0614#d1e2194










(PDF) Emergency queen rearing in honeybee colonies with brood of known age


PDF | In four honeybee colonies, queens were isolated on empty combs for 8 consecutive days, so that in every colony there were 8 combs containing brood... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net












(PDF) Effects of Queen Cell Size and Caging Days of Mother Queen on Rearing Young Honey Bee Queens Apis mellifera L.


PDF | This study aims to investigate the effect of queen cell size (9.4 mm, 9.6 mm, 9.8 mm and 10.0 mm) and mother queen caged time (0 day, 2 days and 4... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net












The influence of queen age and quality during queen replacement in honeybee colonies


Honeybee, Apis mellifera, colonies replace their queens by constructing many queen cells and then eliminating supernumerary queens until only one rema…




www.sciencedirect.com






http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.715.335&rep=rep1&type=pdf


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