# #8 Duck Cloth Inner Cover



## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I got this idea watching a video from UoG. 
I did this to nine colonies of various strengths. Some were nucs I transferred into ten frame equipment. 

The telescoping covers come off without any noise and the Duck Cloth peels back without effort or noise, just like the man said.












No bees flew up to meet me.









I even remembered to drill the hole in the front before adding bees, well after the first one, anyway. 

Alex


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## NorthMaine (Oct 27, 2016)

I really wouldn't have drilled a hole in the box, it's unnecessary. There are usually enough holes in the boxes after a few years to try to keep em sealed up.


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

This is my third season using them, I won't go back. They have to come off in the winter for feeding shims but after 3 seasons they still work well even propolized. The propolis dries out during the winter and I don't flip them as U of G does but theirs stay on all year. The only time my inner covers go on these days is when I need a bee escape.


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## Blue Tick (Jan 5, 2018)

Where are y'all getting the canvas at? I've seen it in their videos and would like to try it as well.


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

Blue Tick said:


> Where are y'all getting the canvas at? I've seen it in their videos and would like to try it as well.


Mine came from a fabric store.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I got mine online at Canvass ETC.

Alex


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Grins.

Have you found that they need any extra ventilation, such as a hole in the box? I have since done a few more, but I drilled a hole in the supers instead of the brood boxes to see how that works. I'm wondering if I will need to drill a hole in the top brood box when the supers come off.

NorthMaine,
Here in Ar., we are very humid, so I think the hole is necessary. Maybe Grins will share some insight as the UoG video didn't address dbl brood boxes or supers. I may need to go back for another listen if I can get my internet or computer issues solved. It has been hit or miss for a while.

Alex


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Talk to any yachtie friends you may know. Disposal of old sails gives those folks a real headache, and yet an old sail - even if stretched, worn-out, damaged, paint-spattered, whatever - could still gather muster for apiary use.

I've still got a few genoa's from a 40-footer tucked away somewhere, which a guy gave me gratis - and even delivered them to me with a smile on his face - as he was facing a disposal fee otherwise.
LJ


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Canvas works well. Old plastic burlap feed sacks work better. They get gluded down less.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The reflectix bubble wrap material works well. That is what Ian Stettler uses under migratory tops. Cuts an openable flap in them when he wants to feed. The only problem I find is that they are prone to be taken away by the wind if you dont anchor them when you pull them off. Canvas would probably be better in this respect.


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

AHudd said:


> Grins.
> 
> Have you found that they need any extra ventilation, such as a hole in the box? I have since done a few more, but I drilled a hole in the supers instead of the brood boxes to see how that works. I'm wondering if I will need to drill a hole in the top brood box when the supers come off.
> 
> ...


My typical set up is a 3/8" entrance at the bottom, in winter I close it down to about 2 bees width. In the summer it is open 6 to 12 inches. i drill a hole just below the finger holds in the upper brood box, wide open in the summer, in the winter I close it to 1 bee width using cardboard so they can chew it more open or propolize it shut. Here in Montana that's all the ventilation they need. I do use quilt boxes over the feeding shims in the winter, they are very effective at removing moisture.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Thanks for the input. I'm thinking the hole in the upper brood box is the ticket.

Alex


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Alex; I have not used an upper entrance in 40 years, and my winter losses are 10% or less. You may want to try just leaving the lower entrance open or using a screened bottom board for any ventilation needed by the colony. In my area, I have never seen any damage caused by moisture to a healthy colony.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

With no upper ventilation of any sort you depend 100% on the bottom not getting blocked by ice, dead bees, drifted snow, or a combination. Usually colony heat will keep an air passage open around the hive but the right conditions of drifting snow and alternating freezing rain can lock them in to suffocate.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

ARBeekeeper, I have always used popsicle sticks between the inner cover and the telescoping cover in the past and it has been adequate, but with the cloth inner cover I think I need the hole in the box as I don't use screened bottom boards. I see how that would negate the need for a hole in the side of the box though.

Crofter, I don't think I could sleep on a snowy night if I didn't have an alternate source of air.

Thanks for the replies,
Alex


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

AHudd said:


> Thanks for the input. I'm thinking the hole in the upper brood box is the ticket.
> 
> Alex


I failed to say the size of the hole in the upper brood box, it is one inch.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

A hole in the box just above the handhold is a pia if you don't use gloves.Drill it just below the handhold if you must,what difference does 2 in make.

I use and have used various types of inner covers; wood,plastic,feed bags,reflectrix etc depending on the situattion
.My latest complaint is when I use reflectrix on side by side double nucs and inspect on sunny days,the reflected glare blinds me and when I wear sunglasses,I can't see eggs!
I do like flexible inner covers.Less disruptive and you can peel back a corner without any smoke.
But ,living in the cold NE,all my hives get wooden inner covers with notch down and 2 in of foam for winter.

I have to laugh at how beeks can argue and discuss hive configurations when all that matters is what works for you in your location.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

AR Beekeeper said:


> I have never seen any damage caused by moisture to a healthy colony.


^ i think this is key! healthy robust colony that has not been disturbed in the fall such that they can properly organize their winter nest. i started using reflectix last year with no upper entrance. no losses from those colonies and very strong coming out of winter. these hives were high enough to not have the entrance blocked by snow. this year i incorporated pallets and my singles on pallets have a 7/16" hole drilled in the handhold.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Thanks, all. These are good points to consider. I have done eight hives in this manner and am going to refrain from doing any more until after next Spring's honey flow is over. If this doesn't suit me or the bees it won't be too much of an effort to go back.

I decided to try this as a way to keep the bees from becoming agitated at the beginning of inspections. Some of them can be a little defensive. 

As with most of my projects I start, I end up with, "Well, while I'm at it, this might help and what about this and if I do this I might need to do that, and on and on". It was only with measured restraint that I made myself stop at eight. Age helps in that regard.

Thanks, again,
Alex


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Good post, Alex.

I enjoyed reading about your approach and the good feedback / thoughts others gave you.

I'll look forward to hearing what your conclusions are after overwintering.

Russ


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Thanks, Russ.

I plan to do an inspection today on the colonies I transferred last week from nucs into ten frame equipment.

I want to see if they are closing the ventilation hole in the front and to see how they react to being opened.

Alex


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## fritter87 (Feb 26, 2016)

Have you noticed any effect on hive beetles? I've been wanting to try this to hopefully cut down on hive beetles, but I've just started removing the inner cover altogether.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

The bees will corral the beetles on the top bars under the canvas. If you are using a telescoping cover, fritter87, using nothing for an inner cover is asking for trouble. The bees will use propolis and burr comb to glue down the telescoping cover.


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## herbhome (Oct 18, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> Canvas works well. Old plastic burlap feed sacks work better. They get gluded down less.



I can attest to this. I have used this for two years with migratory covers and find it helps the bees to control SHB numbers.


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## R.Varian (Jan 14, 2014)

We purchased our canvas from Marsidian.com, best price we could find great service. We ended up with extra that we are going to sell.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

AHudd said:


> I want to see if they are closing the ventilation hole in the front and to see how they react to being opened.
> 
> Alex


I've had good success with upper entrances in my locale with a limited sample size- but I'm a bit North of you.


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## edzkoda (Aug 9, 2014)

R.Varian said:


> We purchased our canvas from Marsidian.com, best price we could find great service. We ended up with extra that we are going to sell.


Which canvas did you use? If you want, pm me with a price and how much you have for sale.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

fritter87 said:


> Have you noticed any effect on hive beetles? I've been wanting to try this to hopefully cut down on hive beetles, but I've just started removing the inner cover altogether.


As AR Beekeeper noted below, there is room for the SHB to be corralled on top of the frames, but the bees don't get up there with them. After reading this comment from AR it dawned on me that I might be able to kill them before peeling back the canvas. I used the curved end of my hive tool to press down on the canvas and slide from one end of the frame to the other. After peeling back the canvas, instead of seeing SHB scurrying for cover, I now find dead and damaged ones. The bees instantly grab the damaged ones, I suppose, for removal.

Alex


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Litsinger said:


> I've had good success with upper entrances in my locale with a limited sample size- but I'm a bit North of you.


This colony, in particular, took to the upper entrance quickly.








I went into each of these hives a couple of days ago without smoke. They were not as quick to react to the slow removal of the canvas cover as they are with a wooden one, but they do react about the same as the inspection becomes more intrusive. For a quick peek inside and the ability to kill a few beetles I would say canvas is a definite plus. Still too soon to make any conclusions, though. I'll use a little smoke next time.

Alex

Edit; I intended to post this pic of the way I set up the ventilation this year. I think it was definitely beneficial for the bees, although it was inconvenient for me having the upper entrance in the rear, which gave rise to a search for a better way. I believe the extra ventilation aided the bees in drying the nectar.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

fritter87 said:


> Have you noticed any effect on hive beetles? I've been wanting to try this to hopefully cut down on hive beetles, but I've just started removing the inner cover altogether.


These hives are not in full sun. They have more beetles than the others. I have to agree with the people who say full sun is a deterrent to beetles. I'll be moving these into full sun as soon as the flying days become fewer.

Maybe I'll be able to tell more about this later.

Alex


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## fritter87 (Feb 26, 2016)

AHudd said:


> These hives are not in full sun. They have more beetles than the others. I have to agree with the people who say full sun is a deterrent to beetles. I'll be moving these into full sun as soon as the flying days become fewer.
> 
> Maybe I'll be able to tell more about this later.
> 
> Alex


I wish I could have full sun where I keep my bees! I keep my 8 hives in my back yard in town which is almost 100% shaded at all times. We want to take down 2 gum trees to let some light in but haven't been able to get around to it. I've never lost a hive to beetles, but it just seems like I have more than I should. I'm going to try this canvas on a few hives to check it out.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I do like smashing them between the canvas and the tops of the frames before peeling it back.

When you do try it, we would like to hear your opinion.

Alex


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

If you use 4 or 6 mil clear plastic sheeting you can see the groups of beetles before they start to run. I use both plastic and canvas for inner covers on my nucs, much cheaper than wood. Give yourself a 1/2 inch overlap on each side of the box. Wind can be a problem when putting on the outer cover, but a piece of duck tape or a thumb tack works to solve that problem.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I like the idea of the clear plastic, like shooting fish in a barrel. I am concerned about any possible condensation issues. In the past I have had condensate form between the inner cover and the telescoping cover, so much so that mold has formed. That is one of the reasons I started looking for a better way. Shimming the inner cover and propping up the telescoping cover solved that issue, but is not practical for the Winter or long term because the wind can blow them off easily. We are currently 60% and it was 85% this morning here in the Ouchitas. I've got a couple of pieces of clear plastic to give it a try.

Thanks,
Alex


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

The only places on the inner cover that I see condensation are in the corners of the cover, but I also have a piece of 1 inch foam insulation board above the inner cover. The warm air condenses on the walls of the box, then runs down and out of the entrance, if a solid bottom board is in use.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I checked the weather this morning at 8:00 AM, we were 95%, we are currently at 96%. 

I wish we had chosen the Ozarks, simply because of the weather.

Alex


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