# Transitioning Langstroth Nuc to TBH



## DougP

hi Everyone,
This spring I will be getting four langstroth nucs. I would like to introduce them to top bar hives that I'm building. 

I thought I would build an Langstroth extension onto the front of the top bar hive to contain four langstroth frames. The original top bar hive front will be removed so that the bees have complete access to the top bar cavity. I'll place the follower five or six top bars back in the top bar cavity and move it as they build out. The bee opening will be through a space in front of the first top bar.

My hope is that the bees will build out on the top bars and over time I can remove the nuc extension to be pure top bar.

I was thinking this would be much less disruptive than trying to trim the frames to fit into the top bar.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Doug


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## AugustC

Yep, that sounds like a plan. Mind you colonies eat plans for breakfast 
If you have a division board with a vertical queen excluder mounted in the centre once there are sufficient combs on the top bar side and the queen moves you can put in the divider and there harvest the frames as the brood emerges.


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## Oldtimer

Straight up, this is a difficult and wasteful procedure, you would do a lot better to cancel the nuc order and buy packages.

However if you are locked in to getting the nucs, happy to discuss.


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## deknow

I'm in 100% agreement with OT. ...it's like buying a convertible with the intention of welding on a top on when you get it.

If I were committed to the nucs and with the TBHs, I'd build up the nucs and then shake out or split some into the TBH....if you don't want the lang equipment at all, you can probably sell the nucs after they raise some new queens (or you introduce them).


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## richr58

Let me wade into this one with some experience. My first package arrived while I was out of town, I was able to acquire a nuc from the dealer later.
I had a Warre hive so I built and " converter ". Should be very easy I put it on top so they would build down just like they do in a Warre. After a full fruitful summer they had not build a single bit of comb below the nuc, I fed them like crazy and they built some. They over wintered I was thrilled, they spent the next summer doing the same dumb thing ( I called it a welfare hive ) they died out the next winter. I was given two lang frames from a neighbor with some brood, nurse bees, and a queen, which I installed in the converter, on the front of a top bar hive I had the same results.

Maybe try the chop and crop method I did that with a Warre swarm trap into my top bar, they thrived through the winter and are doing well in sunny but not so warm Colorado right now.


I must say I went ahead and tried it because I did not want to wait an other season for a package, the seller told me it was a bad idea. I learned a lot, I played with bees for a season, I got stung and fell in love with the hobby. 

If this is the ONLY way to get started then jump in, learn a lot, and hope for success ( failure is not guaranteed ) but if you can get a package do it, you would really be happier in the end.


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## DougP

Thanks for the replies everyone. I've been thinking this over and I guess the chop and crop method is the way I'll go. A bit more disruptive but it will get them settled into their new home without the transition period. I'll ask the nuc supplier to cage the queens for me just be sure of no accidents with them.


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## shannonswyatt

Let the nuc build up and do a Taranov swarm to get them into the TBH, and when the nuc is queen right sell it to someone else if you don't want a lang. You should super the nuc though while it is building up.


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## jadebees

You picked a hard one. I have wired Warre bars under Lang frames, & tied topbar comb into Langs. It is always disruptive. Ive got 2 serarate groups, Lang, Warre. Top bar to Lang, doable, screw the whole bar under a frame top. Very clunky, but it works. Thats not smooth enough to do regularly. Only to put in a specific queen's eggs or queencell. I never put a whole Lang hive or nuc into a topbar hive, too much cutting up. I hope I never have to. 
If you can convince your nuc supplier to make you packages, instead, I believe your bees will adapt and perform much better.


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## DougP

Thanks everyone for your responses. 

I am still under the impression that the established Nuc is a resource worth exploiting. The queen is established, worker bees accept it as home, there's brood and new bees being born. I don't want to disrupt that as I re home them to a TBH. I don't have any langstroth equipment and don't particularly want to buy any.

So it's probably going to come down to cutting the corners off of the nuc frames and fitting them into the TBH trying to retain the ordering of the frames. Hopefully it will still feel like home.


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## jadebees

Dougp, that how it goes for everyone that does that , a thrilling day making a mess, for a half fast result. Good luck with that.
If you want to truly get the advantage of buying good Lang nucs, buy Lang gear.


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## richr58

My points was not to try adapters. Cut up the frames and stick them in. Enjoy bee keeping how ever you can


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## jennSAL

Sorry I didn't pitch in earlier. 2 years ago I put the nuc in a 8 bar deep on top of a TBH, and the queen never moved down though as I shifted topbars from lang 8 the honey and bees did some. So I moved the lang frames into a scaffolding perpendicular to the length of the Kenyan TBH. No brood in regular topbars. That hive absconded. Last year I built a Tanzanian TBH that will hold lang frames. Put 2 nucs into 1- the TTBH and into 2- the prior perpendicular to KTBH in it. The TTBH did much better maybe because it had more sun and less beetles. I built another TTBH, moved the KTBH toward more sun and moved the frames into the new TTBH. Other change from absconded hive: had closed up screened bottom board so they could better control climate (absconded prior to any cold weather here- only cold from Nov-March here and hive was from April to Sept before absconding- so maybe heat/humidity control the issue).

So: my suggestion is build U shaped TBH that will hold langstroth frames. Mine with hybrid lang and topbars are doing fine, though I am not fully sealing them where lang sits atop edge my old TTBH with slight gap around it (sometiems I put my platic political sign covers folded over those areas). My new TTBH I rabbeted a recess so both TB and Lang frames sit below edge of hive and my political sign cover seals the hive except where it is propped open at entrance end.


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## jennSAL

BTW I never see the queen so haven't yet removed lang frames from my hives- maybe it's time, if I ever harvest honey, to harvest those ones if honey only or at least move them away from brood area if there are any brood free queen free lang frames on careful inspection.


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## Matt903

I did the crop and chop one time, years ago. It was a stingy, sticky, dead bees, dead brood, ruined comb, kind of mess. It was wasteful and took hours for one hive. I can't begin to imagine doing four.


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## Riskybizz

I think he should do it simply to verify to himself what a ludicrous idea it is.


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## dixieswife

We've put Lang nucs in a TBH. Twice. Nucs are way easier to get around here than a package. 

While it wasn't as easy as Lang on Lang action, adapting the comb wasn't inordinately messy, and while we cut through some larvae, there wasn't any kind of bee massacre. 

Here's what we did. It wasn't very hard or weird, I didn't think. Your mileage may vary.

(Note: we didn't cut up plastic frames, these were wood. We did snip wires, didn't seem to be an issue for us. Again, your mileage may vary)

Option one, slower: fitting Lang shaped comb to a top bar

Have sharp bread knife for cutting comb, zip ties, and cheapie claw hair clips. Big or small clips doesn't matter -- big you use one, small you use two. Don't work on a hot day with the sun softening up your comb. Have everything ready. Second set of not-afraid-of-bees hands helps a lot.

1) Shake bees off Lang comb (do cage the queen so you don't accidentally flip her off to who knows where
2) Cut comb out of frame, cut to fit your bars and sloped sides. The less brood you have to chop off the better, but it happens. We use the follower board as a pattern.
3) Take hairclip. Pinch it onto the top of the comb. Big clip: pinch in middle. Small clip: pinch on two sides.
4) Using zip ties, tie clip through the holes in the clip "wings" to the top bar. 
5) Insert top bar into hive, cut off excess zip tie.

Yes, it will look funky, but the bees will fill in the gaps. Someday you can cut the comb off the bar when it's old or whatever, take the clip out of the comb and do whatever you want to do with the old comb. we melt it, give the bar back the hive. Trying to clean up the hair clip can be a bit of a chore. Not sure it is worth it. 

Option two, simpler: Just use the Lang frame and make it into a top bar. Needed: Bread knife and something to break apart/cut the Lang frame.

1) Carefully cut the comb away from the sides and bottom of the Lang frame
2) Carefully cut away the sides and bottom of the Lang frame. If there's wire you might have to snip through it.
3) Cut the comb into the shape of the TBH slope. 
4) Trim any excess "ends" of the top of the frame to fit your TBH like the "real" top bars. 
5) Now you have an "oddball" top bar. Replace later on when cycling out old comb or whatever.


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## Michael Bush

>I'm in 100% agreement with OT. ...it's like buying a convertible with the intention of welding on a top on when you get it.

Agreed. Part of the problem with the "crop and chop" plan is that things are too unpredictable. What if they are plastic frames? What if they are wax but wired both vertically and horizontally? Or just horizontally? A chop and crop is not nearly as easy as some videos make it look...


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## DougP

DixiesWife - thanks for the detailed explanation.
RiskyBizz - there were two ideas presented: 1) adding an extension to the front of the top bar that will contain the langstroth nuc frames, and/or 2) cropping the frames so that they fit into the tbh. Which is ludicrous? 
Michael Bush - thanks for the warning about the difficulties in chopping and cropping.

I don't have any experience with this which is why I am asking for opinions. 
Seeing as there is no consensus, I think I will do both and report back on which had the better outcome. The nucs won't come until May so it will take a while.

- Doug


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## Duncan151

I would build up the nuc and then do a shook swarm into the top bar, and maybe cut up one comb just to get them started. That gives you experience with two types of hives, and you can never have enough nucs! 
There is a good description above of doing the chop and crop, I will add that I find a pair of old scissors is easier to use when cutting a lot of comb. 
Here are a few pictures.


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## dixieswife

DougP said:


> DixiesWife - thanks for the detailed explanation.
> RiskyBizz - there were two ideas presented: 1) adding an extension to the front of the top bar that will contain the langstroth nuc frames, and/or 2) cropping the frames so that they fit into the tbh. Which is ludicrous?
> Michael Bush - thanks for the warning about the difficulties in chopping and cropping.
> 
> I don't have any experience with this which is why I am asking for opinions.
> Seeing as there is no consensus, I think I will do both and report back on which had the better outcome. The nucs won't come until May so it will take a while.
> 
> - Doug


I didn't see this mentioned yet, so one more possibility for you:

What you *could* also do to get the whole horizontal hive experience and make it super easy to use Lang frames is build a long Lang. Then you can just drop the frames in.


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## sammy60

i'm facing the same problem. We have allready frames like langstroth (swedisch version) and i want to split one of those to put in a THB (i'm not sure of the name of this proces in english when you buy a queen and puts her in a hive with working bees, egg en brood from a hive who's exploding with bees and had the risk of swarming) I was wondering if you can't use a THB without angled (?) sidewalls but regtangled, so that the LSframes fit in there?


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## aunt betty

Two ways to deal with this.
1. crop n chop. I've done it and it's not that hard if you're handy with a skill saw. You'll need a helper to hold the frames on one end while you chop the other. It takes two hands to run the saw as you'll be holding the guard open. Might get a carpenter to help you.
2. use the nuc as is and place it into the top bar hive perpendicular to the bars. You'll have to rig a cover for the lang bars exposed tops. Build a frame rail system. It's possible.


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## crmauch

You might want to take a look at P.J. Chandler's "The Barefoot Beekeeper". He describes converting frames from Lang to TBH. Although I would personally lean towards the "hairclip" method rather than the sewing method he describes.


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## dixieswife

Sammy, yes you can. Tanzanian top bar hives are squared, not angled, and another option is just to make a long Langstroth where you can just drop the frames in as is.


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## DougP

Here's some pics of my attempt at attaching a nuc to top bar to create a hybrid of the two. I'll let you know how it works out.


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## aunt betty

^^^ Brilliant.


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## DougP

Thanks Betty. I think it should work but then, I'm not a bee.


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## nxbalazs

Hi! almost a year later! It is worked? Please let us know your experience


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## DougP

Yes, it worked well. I made the langstroth box too small for four frames so started with just three. The other thing to keep in mind is that the first top bar should be only a bee space from the frame in the langstroth part. So I had to cut the cross bar (in the above picture) off.
The hive was a bit warm over the summer - lots of bearding on the outside. Maybe more ventilation in the langstroth portion would have helped.
Will let you know in the spring if they overwintered.


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## DougP

A year and a bit later so i wanted to show how well it worked...
https://youtu.be/qGkOicNxfhg


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## BeardedBeeApiary

I'm a 3rd year Beekeeper and want to try a KTBH this year, HOWEVER I can only get "NUCs" (no one sells "Packages" around me) and I came across this Link, on how to Install a NUC into a TBH, 
But have not heard any results from this... would/could this work? or am I chasing a pipe dream? - I'm almost debating on waiting for a Swarm to randomly move in, or wait until I do a Removal.. 
any thoughts/suggestions/help!? 

the link:: 

https://kootenaybeenews.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/langnuc-into-tbh.pdf


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## Michael Bush

If it were me, and I wanted to put bees in a top bar hive and I could not buy a package, I would try to get a local beekeeper to sell me a "shaken swarm".


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## BeardedBeeApiary

Michael Bush said:


> If it were me, and I wanted to put bees in a top bar hive and I could not buy a package, I would try to get a local beekeeper to sell me a "shaken swarm".


thanks for the Advice Mike! I may have to do that... myself... lol 
or wait until I do a removal...

guess I was hoping this Method was "plausible" but the more I read about it, and the forums here, the more I may just wait for a Swarm/removal or shaken swarm...



thanks for the input!


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## shannonswyatt

I've done it the other way around were I do a Taranov swarm from a top bar into a Lang. I have a bunch of TBHs in nucs, and this works for me. Easier going from a Lang since you don't have as much to worry about when shaking the bees off the frames.


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## Michael Bush

I just think it is too much trouble and the results too unpredictable to be worth the kludges that people are using to get the bees from Langstroth frames to a top bar. Whether putting the frames in crosswise (as in your pdf above) or doing a "crop and chop". All of these just have so many things that may or may not work out the way you think. If the ONLY choice I had was a Langstroth nuc, I would probably just put it in a Langstroth box and when it's strong enough do a shaken swarm...


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## shannonswyatt

Exactly. Leave them in a 5 frame nuc for a few weeks, they will be ready to split themselves really fast in the spring. Take your split with the original queen, let the original nuc raise another queen, or just purchase another queen, and then sell the nuc to someone else. Or just keep it as insurance.


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