# More and more nervous...



## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Ok. I fully agree with the philosophy and have intended from the beginning to be fully treatment free with my colonies. I get my first bees this spring. Unlike those of you in the south, cutouts and swarms are fewer and farther between up here (I think). I'm more and more nervous that my bees are not going to do well, and that the dreaded varroa are going to be the end for me. I'm not sure I can afford to buy bees every year until some live...

Is powdered sugar an option for the first couple years? Is that a treatment? Does anybody intentionally setup brood breaks or freeze frames of drones to reduce mites? These seem like treatments to me.

To clarify, my viewpoint is not one of reducing "chemicals" in my hives, but one of growing stronger more independent bees.... 

Someone please talk me down.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I don't think powdered sugar is a strong-enough suppressant on its own, and the bees hate it, so it wouldn't be my choice for a first year beekeeper.

Brood breaks are also not, IMO, a good choice for a colony in its establishment year when you are in a race against time to get the colony settled in, with enough comb drawn and filled before your first winter. It's a better tactic for the second, and subsequent years. And philosophically it isn't moving you toward where I think you trying to go in getting to a point where the bees can stand on their own w/o treatments (if such a thing is possible for you, your site and your bees.) It's just making more colonies with pretty much no change in the genetics. But it does interrupt the mite's annual build-up, so it works, sort of. But the mites can also build up to troubling levels in seasons where brood breaks are impossible, or inappropriate, so you can't count on it alone.

Drone trapping works for the same reason - it hammers the mites by killing enough to keep the population low enough that they stay sort of under control. I know of one commercial beekeeper near me who does only this. He has mid-range annual losses which he recovers from by making enough splits to cover them. But this isn't changing the genetics, just playing a numbers game.

I think a mildly experienced beekeeper could get by doing two of these three, but I think for someone starting out (especially with commercial bees, not re-queened with tolerant/resistant stock) you'll have more luck in the long run by learning to manage bees, first. Set up a strong mite monitoring plan and use one of the organic acid (formic or oxalic) treatments for your first year or so. This way you'll be much more likely to have live bees to get your skills built up enough to be able work the (re-queened) bees more successfully on a TF basis. And you won't have to endure the unpleasantness and expense of letting the bees die unnecessarily due to the compounding effect of your own lack of experience interacting the bees' initial lack of tolerance. 

Fix the one thing you certainly can control, your own skills and experience, before you turn to the next step, the bees' biology.

A year, or two's, treatment with "soft chemicals" is not going to poison your bees or your hives (or you, if you are sensible). Your bees most likely weren't raised TF, anyway. So it's not like you are going _backwards_, away from your goal. You're just extending their current status a bit longer so that _your_ skill level is up to the mark for the significant challenge of transforming them into TF bees.

Enj.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Powdered sugar is considered a treatment just so you know.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

It does´t matter much, Monkey, to purchase "resistant" stock or local treated stock, you will have high risks anyway.

That, because the "resistant"stock must adapt to your location and this could mean they suddenly are not "resistant" anymore.

The local treated stock should be the best to start with, but less treatments will not make them better stock if you don´t watch out for the better ones to breed from. This from tf or treated, no matter.
Less treatments could mean the same losses or survivors as going cold turkey, this depends on the impact of mites and how virus tolerant your bees are.

The time will come when you must decide to confront the risks and losses, no matter what. No guaranties envolved.

Experienced beekeepers tell me they had to start at the beginning like new beekeepers. They knew nothing about keeping bees alive without treatments even keeping bees for 30 years.
The managements you need at your location are special and often you have to abandon old school methods.

Powdered sugar can be a help if you do it right. The whole year through every 3 or 4 weeks. It stresses the bees but not so much as the mites do.
You may monitor mites and open cells in brood combs to see the infestation. The you can use culling if the infestation is high, so the best drones from the best colonies are still flying.
Be careful after the colonies breed no drones anymore, then the mites go into the worker brood cells.

You have to loose your fear of setbacks or people criticizing what you do.
If you want to use some technical methods like sugar, drone culling or caging of queen, why not? It´s your decision. You are just starting, you have no stock so far.
This must not be chemical treatment. Microbes are probably spared and the bees live longer without being confronted with chemicals.

In the end you are alone with your bees and must adapt to your circumstances, even if this needs years. And Circumstances change from year to year also.

So the best is to read how people do it on the tf sub forum or ask questions via pm or thread. The develop a system you will try after learning the basics of beekeeping.

Here some nice information:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?333480-Treatment-free-Bees/page3
#53


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

She hit it all with the pointers. Everything starts from the beginning, abandon old school methods, years of adaptation to local environment, and nothing is 100% guarantee once you develop a new system of beekeeping. Somehow I'm already doing here what she's writing there. Read up on my post if you want to go the tf route at http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?334803-Chosen-my-breeder then goto #16 on the blue link. It is a 2 year experiment to refine this method that is showing the result I like to see this Spring. No more hive crashed for me this year! It is a form of treatment but not a chemical treatment. You can say it is hive manipulation at its most natural almost like giving it a brood break but my bees cannot take a brood break because the queens laid all year long in a mild winter environment. This is more challenging trying to get rid of the most aggressive mites here. Left alone they will crashed the entire hive on early Spring time build up as they've done it before. The first step is to start with finding mite fighting survivor queens directly from the source. The second step is to grow your own local hive numbers. This is when you get to practice and develop your own methods and improvement. Don't be too nervous. Everybody is willing to help you out. Need additional help just do a PM. Fun, fun, fun!


Five year in the making and still going strong:


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Monkey
I don't know north dakota. I don't know if there are a lot of bees or not. One way for a quick check might be to take a cup of sugar water and on your first two 60+ degree days of the year, set it out and maby put one drop of lemon grass oil in it (though probly not needed) to help them find it. You may be surprized at how many bees really are around. I found that untill I got interested in bees, I never notice such things and do not remember seeing many but after I started looking they were everywhere. 

Another way is if you know some who keep chickens, On the very few days that get warm, the bees will mob the cracked corn.

Is there a point to all this? I am guessing that north dakota is still pretty cold and has not had that many warm days. I had an uncle that lived there for a couple of years and remember seeing show piles as high as a house where parking lots were cleaned. The bees will be hungry on the first few warm days.

You could buy your bees and work them but maby hedge your bet with some traps. I don't know how much family that you have but what I have done is make a bunch of traps with every scrap of wood I could come up with for free and put one at each relitives house and ask them to call me if they ever see bees around the traps. The traps can be a little gaudy but also can be put about anywhere and have a chance of catching something. Non of my relitives are bee poeple and some are scared of bees but they didn't seem to mind the traps.

This may hedge your bet a little from the having to buy bees all the time and you could get your packages and try to learn from them but maby get a swarm every once it a while to help mididgate the mistakes you make while learning.

You indicate that you do not think that there are a lot of swarms but I have never seen one my whole life untill I watched one come to one of my traps.

I am thinking that a cup up sugar water (or half a cup) may be an eye opening experiance. It was for me.

Trapping is not really a cheep way to get bees if you have to do it all, but if you can just set them and have just a little help in watching them, it becomes a lot better and you can use some pretty junky wood to get some.

Now for the bad news. I had twelve traps out the first year and cought nothing and 16 out the second year and caught three. It is not a garentee. It does give some options of not getting on the buy/kill/buy treadmill and may give bees that might help you in what you are trying to do.

I just put this out as something to think about (though I am sure you have been thinking about it)

Good luck
gww


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## Mr. Biggs (Jul 20, 2015)

Monkey,

I grew up in ND, but did not have bees there. Good luck. 

You will have high mite pressure and genetics from every part of the country.

Your best bet is to find a local bk that overwinters there.

I think most do not over winter there bees there. 

Honey is big ag in ND. Think Almonds in CA but on the honey side. 
ND is the largest honey producer in the USA. 500,000+ hives are moved there annually and Honey is still made one frame at a time.
Some producers are responsible 10's of semi-trucks full of honey a year. Most ppl can not comprehend what it takes to feed the world.

My hats off to all the hard working family's out there that are farming so that I can feed mine.

google images "nd canola field in bloom" to get a small look at what it takes for just some of the worlds canola oil or rape seed production. 

Hear is a link to the ND bee map. One can view the map 3/4 down the page.

https://beemap.ndda.nd.gov/


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

> I found that untill I got interested in bees, I never notice such things and do not remember seeing many but after I started looking they were everywhere.


I guess that's true of everything. Like getting a new car and then noticing it everywhere when you didn't before.

Thanks for the advice.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Thanks to all of you. This has really helped quite a bit. I'm not normally a nervous person. Sitting around waiting for may is getting the best of me I guess. All my boxes and frames are assembled and I've got nothing to do but think, and think, and think...


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

monkey....


> Thanks to all of you. This has really helped quite a bit. I'm not normally a nervous person. Sitting around waiting for may is getting the best of me I guess. All my boxes and frames are assembled and I've got nothing to do but think, and think, and think...


I know what you mean, I sit for two years trying to get bees. Then when I got them I still have been in limbo never seeing what was good and what was bad before. 

I do think if you could find anyone who has hives that would let you watch them go through one or two of them would help you. My mind still goes a little blank when I open my hive and I never really go through every frame but more look and see if I see capped brood and a little honey in the combs and see if I need to add room. When looking with someone else, You get to see them handling the comb and bees and even if you don't retain alot, it is sorta like sighting in your deer rifle before deer season, it give you confidence cause you know one part of the hunt is good. It helps in ways you might not think. If you can't then you can't but if you can, don't pass up the opertunity.
Good luck
gww


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

When you start thinking too much then read up on queen rearing. All the details that go into it. To be sustainable in the
long run you need to go this route. You tube will give you some idea, some are good and some not, especially on Michael Palmer's
sustainable apiary which is a good method. You can spend 100s of hours on you tube to watch the vids on I.I. (artificial queen insemination) as
well as other good bee topics like how to take care of your bees through out the 4 seasons especially on the cold winter time there. Finally, know how to make Lauri's sugar bricks posted here and how to make your homemade patty subs as those are handy in the early Spring time build up. Lauri's bricks will get your bees through the cold winter days.


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

You should probably buy an oxalic acid dribble kit just in case. Read the instructions and put on the shelf so that you have a Plan B.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

So some people do not consider feeding and pollen substitute as a treatment?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

You said you wanted independent bees so don´t do this:

1. Putting bees in a container (e.g. skep, hollow log)
2. Providing top-bars with comb guides (e.g. Kenyan, Warré & Perone hives)
3. Providing frames
4. Providing frames with foundation
5. Providing plastic foundation
6. Providing a mesh floor
7. Nadiring / Supering
8. Opening the hive
9. Transporting the hive
10. Feeding (e.g. a. planting forage; b. honey.)
11. Removing honey
12. Controlling swarming
13. Drone suppression
14. Practising brood nest spreading
15. Providing a queen excluder
16. Clipping the queen's wing
17. Feeding sugar in emergencies.
18. Artificial queen breeding
19. Regular transportation of hives as in migratory beekeeping (i.e. transhumance) 20. Removing too much honey and feeding back sugar syrup
21. Medicating with so-called organic treatments (e.g. a. powdered sugar; b. organic acids present in the hive; c. essential oils present in the hive)
22. Medicating with synthetics and antibiotics

But then you are not a beekeeper.

You mean survivors? Maybe they will be strong after some years if you leave them in an isolated rural environment, never doing anything...


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i don't believe that you will find a universally accepted definition of 'treatment' and by extension 'treatment free'.

the problem with describing a beekeeping approach as being all 'natural' is that just placing more than one hive in a yard one already crosses a line on what the bees would do naturally if left to their own devices.

adding to that the fact that disturbances are made to the hive and resources are typically harvested takes us even further away from what occurs naturally with a colony.

by and large what is being talked about when it come to 'treatments' is whether or not any introduced substances (i.e. oxalic acid, maqs, thymol, ect.) or manipulations (i.e. drone removal, frequent splitting, ect.) is being used for mite control as opposed to allowing a colony to control mites without intervention of any kind.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

I am one year ahead of you. I got my first bees last spring, one colony that a local beekeeper split in two for me, so I got two sister hives. No idea what kind, and I didn't think at the time to ask. They are smallish and pretty dark, some are nearly black, and fairly hot, so I think they are not your typical commercial bees. I am in N Illinois, so a bit warmer than you but we got down to -10 last December for a week.

Except sugar dusting a few times, I did no chemical treatments for mites. One died a month ago, the second is looking good, starting to build up numbers. I will not be surprised if that one dies too, but I have hopes. I am putting up a lot of swarm traps at friend and family properties, and my back yard, in hopes of catching some genetic variety. 

I see that as the only hope for me if I continue not to treat. Catching and splitting and building numbers, in the expectation of lots of hives failing each year. It is sad, but in the long run I believe that people have to be doing this. I plan to keep the hives well-separated, so that there is less cross-contamination as hives fail and send mites out with the remaining bees. If there were other beekeepers near me, I wouldn't do this and risk their hives too, but since it is just me and the bees, I accept the risk. 

If you are buying bees, I'd say to treat! It is an investment, and unless you have money to burn, why risk losing them when treatments are cheap? After you get some numbers, then you can decide whether to risk losing a bunch of hives every year. Plus, purchased bees face a lot of stresses that my local bees did not. They came to me with full frames of honey and pollen, and a strong, active queen, that I knew could survive in this area.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Anytime you deviate from the natural process of beekeeping then it is consider a treatment. So yes, feeding is
a treatment because you have intervene with their natural progression. Natural progression to me is pretty much what sum is already up in #14 above. You set the hive up and leave them alone. Of course, without any intervention then you are no longer a beekeeper just an observer from the outside. I think you are nervous because of thinking too much with many unanswered questions. Once you got your answer then it will be less nervous further down the road. And the only way to get your answers without the help sometimes is to experiment a bit once you feel comfortable around the bees.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

There's two ways to approach it..... keeping bees treatment free or getting treatment free bees. If you can get a good drop rate with powdered sugar, it can be effective, some people claim to be treatment free only using this approach. I have no issues with the claims except I wouldn't consider those treatment free bees, or in other words, bees with the genetics to be kept absolutely treatment free with no manipulations. Beepro has found a method that's maybe worked for him, but on the flip side makes claims about how hygienic his bees are when in fact I would put little faith in it since manipulations are being done and it's not even been a year, but he has so far kept his bees treatment free for the last season, so I would say yes, perhaps he's a treatment free beekeeper but I would not consider his bees as treatment free bees until they've been proven to survive multiple years w/o manipulation. Part of it is locational as well, good natural forage for most of the year plays a critical role in colony health as well but feeding good sub and syrup can also be a benefit. If you work hard to develop some methods and manipulations that can be effective, it can go a long way of keeping bees treatment free but there's no guarantees.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> mite control as opposed to allowing a colony to control mites without intervention of any kind.


Is selecting for certain traits not an intervention? Is requeening with a queen with preferable genetics not an intervention? Is monitoring for mites not an intervention? Is small cell not an intervention? It seems one man's treatment free is another man's treatment. The hardest thing I've found in beekeeping is understanding what treatment free is.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

beepro said:


> Anytime you deviate from the natural process of beekeeping then it is consider a treatment..


What is the natural process? Removable frames? North America? What is the natural process? Selective breeding? Hive manipulations? I guess I do not understand the natural process from the unnatural process. It all seems unnatural to me. Could you elaborate?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

As a head up, Randy Oliver made an up date to his powered sugar artical this mounth
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/pow...weet-and-safe-but-does-it-really-work-part-1/ Its worth the read if its something you want to try while evelautaing you stock's resistance
key points were to be effective you need to dust at least every 2 weeks doing the brood rearing season or a course of 4-5 dusting treatments 4-5 days apart. The grade/type matters and some sugars with certain anti caking additives were found to be very toxic to the bees.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

dlbrightjr said:


> Is selecting for certain traits not an intervention? Is requeening with a queen with preferable genetics not an intervention? Is monitoring for mites not an intervention? Is small cell not an intervention? It seems one man's treatment free is another man's treatment. The hardest thing I've found in beekeeping is understanding what treatment free is.


exactly the point i was trying to make. 'all natural' ... 'beekeeping' is an oxymoron.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Ok. Sorry. I'm still trying to get a handle on what treatment free means. It seems to be defined on an individual basis. If I understand you correctly you are defining treatment free as genetic selection in the face of mite loads with minimal or no beekeeper intervention specifically designed to lower or control mites. Is that correct? Not trying to start one of those endless debates. Just trying to understand what is being referred to. I will readily admit to not following the treatment free forum often enough to no if there is already some general consensus. Thanks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Set some bait hives out. Catch some swarms. Let your package draw some natural comb. Ask around about when the main flow is and put your queen in a nuc when the main flow is about to happen and let them requeen themselves if you can't get a local queen. That way you get at least a somewhat local queen. If they die you'll have the advantage next year of some drawn comb and maybe by then you will have caught a swarm. Look at the statistics. People treating are just as likely to lose all their bees.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> Set some bait hives out. Catch some swarms. Let your package draw some natural comb. Ask around about when the main flow is and put your queen in a nuc when the main flow is about to happen and let them requeen themselves if you can't get a local queen. That way you get at least a somewhat local queen. If they die you'll have the advantage next year of some drawn comb and maybe by then you will have caught a swarm. Look at the statistics. People treating are just as likely to lose all their bees.


Your good about linking to statistics so you've probably included the link before, but, do you mind linking to those statistics. Are you saying people are just as likely to lose their bees treating their bees with any method as opposed to doing nothing? Are you saying people who "treat" their bees are just as likely to lose their bees as people that don't "treat" all other things equal? What do you consider treatment? I usually follow your posts pretty good, however, I'm not quite understanding this one. Thanks.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

dlbrightjr said:


> I'm still trying to get a handle on what treatment free means...


the point i was trying to make in the post above is that 'treatment free' can mean different things to different people as there is not a universally accepted definition. the working definition for this particular subforum can be found in the sticky thread containing the 'unique forum rules' at the top of the subforum page.

i really wasn't trying to define treatment free. by saying 'by and large' i was expressing my opinion that most of the time when treatments are discussed on beesource it appears to be regarding mite treatments, and most of the time when someone says they are treatment free it means they don't treat for mites.

one good thing about being a square peg is that you don't have to worry about conforming to this definition or that, and it's also a good way to steer clear from endless debates.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Sorry. I was focusing on the bottom part. Totally blew past the top couple of lines.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

If you average out the statistics, MB might be correct in his statement about TF losses vs non-TF losses, but I would tend to disagree with that statement here in Cali, where the large presence of commercial bees and high mite pressure would really skew the results towards treating bees if you want them to survive.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Thanks. It's been my experience he tends to have the goods to back up his statements. I assume we are not talking about beginning beekeepers, but, very experienced beekeepers.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

A person's reasons for being TF are a guide for how to manage their bees TF when the going gets tough. I want to be able to harvest honey from a deadout without wondering if the honey was exposed to any OA, without wondering if the OA really is such a low concentration that I would be fine, without wondering later if that honey got mixed with other honey I wanted to sell.... so I'm motivated to not treat! But I accept that mites are likely to be deadly. In fact I've already received a mite bomb - my bees went robbing somewhere out of my apiary, and brought back more than honey. Died in 2 months. they robbed on 10/29, which was after we think of treating for mites. Lesson learned for next time - and I would have treated if I'd thought to check for mites and seen that the hive had been mite bombed.

FWIW, here is my thinking about what I will do if the mites get out of control. I'm going into my 2nd summer with 2 hives - so I'm small potatoes and haven't dealt with real mite pressure. The queens are daughters from a swarm I caught in 2015. I will not release a mite bomb from my apiary. I'd rather treat than do that. I will be informed about my mite levels - already checked in Feb and so far they are low - 2 %. And I will mark the combs that were in the hive during the treatment, and not use that honey. I'll have to take out the honeycomb (top bar hive) while I treat. And no using that queen for queen cells. And no drones released from that hive. And requeening with a queen who handled mites better (if I have one - otherwise time to buy one!). So I'm removing the hive from the gene pool without having the hive die. 

It's called soft bond!  Not quite "live and let die". 

Good luck this season. I wish for you to have peace on your beekeeping journey, but part of having livestock is facing life-and-death decisions for the bees that are under your care. And not being sure which decision will lead to "life" vs "death". Keep reading, it will come in handy to have all this theory under your belt when it is time to put it to the test!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

that sounds like a good plan trish. thanks for posting and please keep us updated on your 2017 season.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Treatment free is to keep bees without chemicals and oils mostly.

The methods of keeping them can differ very much as you can see with the stories posted here on the sub forum.

They may range from doing nothing except owning bees to managing them like a commercial production beekeeper. 

And this is the difficulty. It works with different circumstances. But you can´t follow a line.
You don´t know which managements work at your location so you have to find out and you may be forced to help the bees with some non-chemical methods until they are more resistant.

To find out you need some years.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Your good about linking to statistics so you've probably included the link before, but, do you mind linking to those statistics. 

If you look at any of the many surveys various clubs around the country do you'll find not much difference in losses. If you look at the bee informed survey from year to year, some years the treaters have slightly better results. Some years the non-treaters have slightly better results. Not a lot of difference.

https://beeinformed.org/results-categories/national-management/


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Like many of Bush's so called facts -- the assertion that TF and T losses are equal is pure "reality distortion field"


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Instead of just using JWChesnut's cherry picked chart, look at all the years and all the things they compared from 2010 to 2015. I will let you draw your own conclusions rather than just picking the ones that fit my view of things.


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

MB
Looking at the data on the link you provided above I would respectfully disagree. I agree with your statement of "not much difference" based on the percentage numbers. When you look however at the statistical analysis which the group does there is what is termed a significant difference. In the graphs it is represented by the small whiskers at the top of each bar (they look like the letter capital I). If the distance between the top and bottom of the whiskers over lap in the bars then there is no statistical difference in the data. If one is completely above or below (no overlap then the data shows a difference). JW used one as an example but there is a similar trend in the rest.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Michael Bush said:


> some years the treaters have slightly better results. Some years the non-treaters have slightly better results. Not a lot of difference.
> https://beeinformed.org/results-categories/national-management/


With all do respect for all the help you provide new beeks, thats not at all what the reports in the link says 

2014-15


> beekeepers who treated their bees for Varroa mites lost 26.8% fewer overwintering colonies than beekeepers who did not treat their bees for Varroa mites
> beekeepers who used Oxalic acid lost 37.3% fewer colonies than beekeepers who reported no treatment with a known Varroa control product.


2013-14


> beekeepers who reported treating for Varroa mites lost 27% fewer colonies than those who did not
> beekeepers who reported treating with an Oxalic acid based product lost 41.3% fewer colonies than those who did not report treating with any known Varroa mite control product.


2012-13


> beekeepers who reported treating for Varroa mites lost 25.5% fewer colonies than those who did not
> beekeepers who reported treating with an Oxalic acid based product lost 34.8% fewer colonies than those who did not report treating with any known Varroa mite control product.


2011-12


> Beekeepers who used a known varroa control product lost 23.3% fewer colonies than those who did not use a known varroa mite control product.


2010-2011


> beekeepers who reported treating for varroa mites lost 20 % fewer colonies


So in no case did the TF bees ever fair better or even on par with the treated bees.

Take home that may be useful here
the numbers seem to be saying a southern TF keeper will lose less hives then a northern keeper that treats!
61-54% of the people in the studys were TF!!! 95% were backyard and had 2x the losses of the commercial group 
Removal of drone brood cuts losses by almost 10% in the north and has no effect in the south
SBB cuts northern losses by 12% in the north and has no effect in the south 
experience of the beekeeper had no effect on losses.
Small Cell had no effect on losses
Sugar Dusting had no efect on losses
Do the numbers tell the whole story, a 25% difrance in loss in the difference between 4 and 5 hives lost out of 11-12 or so hives(spitball numbers) that's not huge and I beleave thats MB's point
...and Is TF realy the majorly!?


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

I appreciate the links and everyone's feedback. I would also like everyone to consider that perspective and goals matter. If you are using the forum rules in this forum as your main goal then the statistics could be encouraging. I think you expect some loss and on average they do not look to bad from that perspective. If your main goal is to increase colonies and sell bees and/or honey then the statistics would encourage you to do things not mentionable here. I think it is possible that everyone here is right depending on what their goals are. I want to thank everyone for responding. I always learn something.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

John Davis said:


> MB
> Looking at the data on the link you provided above I would respectfully disagree. I agree with your statement of "not much difference" based on the percentage numbers. When you look however at the statistical analysis which the group does there is what is termed a significant difference. In the graphs it is represented by the small whiskers at the top of each bar (they look like the letter capital I). If the distance between the top and bottom of the whiskers over lap in the bars then there is no statistical difference in the data. If one is completely above or below (no overlap then the data shows a difference). JW used one as an example but there is a similar trend in the rest.


The data shows confidence that there is a difference. The difference is not great.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> The data shows confidence that there is a difference. The difference is not great.


Maybe not much if you they have no value, but, several hundred dollars if you pay to replace them or consider a hive to have any value. It is all perspective I guess. Even more if your the inexperienced beekeeper that lost all your hive as opposed to the experienced beekeeper that lost little or none.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Dl....


> Maybe not much if you they have no value, but, several hundred dollars if you pay to replace them or consider a hive to have any value. It is all perspective I guess. Even more if your the inexperienced beekeeper that lost all your hive as opposed to the experienced beekeeper that lost little or none.


Although if you count you time and cost to stay on top and count and treat, then when losses are added up and if the margines are close. It might make it a wash. 
Just throwing what might be one perspective out.
Cheers
gww


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

gww said:


> Dl....
> 
> 
> Although if you count you time and cost to stay on top and count and treat, then when losses are added up and if the margines are close. It might make it a wash.
> ...


For me personally in my particular situation it would not even be close. I won't have to save many for time and money. Now granted I will be just as happy saving it treatment free if I could.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> Look at the statistics. People treating are just as likely to lose all their bees.


About statistics. The more you torture them, the more you can make them tell you anything you want to hear.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Dl.....


> For me personally in my particular situation it would not even be close. I won't have to save many for time and money. Now granted I will be just as happy saving it treatment free if I could.


I hear you man, I don't have a big opinion on my bees yet one way or the other cause I haven't been at it long enough.
Cheers
gww


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Here's natural philosophy vs treating:
https://beeinformed.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Managment-Philosopy.pdf
https://beeinformed.org/wp-content/...ferent-beekeeping-management-philosophies.pdf
https://beeinformed.org/wp-content/...ferent-Beekeeping-Management-Philosophies.pdf
https://beeinformed.org/wp-content/...ferent-Beekeeping-Management-Philosophies.pdf
https://beeinformed.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/ManagementPhilosphy-RF.pdf

It looks a bit different in the ones split out. For example here there are three groups, no treatment, Cumophos and other:

https://beeinformed.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Coumaphos.pdf
https://beeinformed.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/coumaphos-use.pdf
https://beeinformed.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Coumaphos-Use.pdf
https://beeinformed.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Coumaphos-Use.pdf
https://beeinformed.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/CoumaphosUse-RF-TW.pdf

Very little difference.

Look at all the data. Think about the line the people who are advocates of treating use. "All your bees will die" when that is obviously not true.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That's the problem with statistics.

First off, do you have references to all these treaters who keep saying "all your bees will die", or is that more the world how you like to imagine it?

I'm sure it's been said, but more in specific situations where all the bees literally are going to die, less as a blanket statement.

Second, the problem with those statistics you've chosen from back around the beginning of the decade, is the great bulk of respondants are relatively inexperienced beekeepers. Mostly they do not want to treat and don't. But then they see their precious hive near death, have a mind change, and put treatment in it. Problem with that, it's too late, or they don't know enough to use the treatment correctly, the hive dies, and they then fill in the form saying they treated but the hive died anyway. Bit like your own experience Mike.

People are becoming a bit more educated now about accepting the reality of mites and this is reflected in more people intervening earlier, which is why more recent statistics than the ones you chose, show a greater difference in survival between treated hives and non treated hives. 

Using carefully chosen statistics can tell you whatever you want to hear.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Also the statement is often made that "treating bees breeds weaker bees and stronger mites". But, if treating did not reduce death rates, that statement couldn't be true.

See the problem?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

the 1st set of links is comparing treatments to treatments ... not TF to treatments 


> Survey Question
> *When choosing treatment* or feeding strategies for your colonies, would you say that you use:
> -No non-bee derived products
> -Only natural products
> ...


the 2nd round is showing that Coumaphos is not super effective.. mite resistance to Coumaphos is known
your cherry picking a invective product...That why I qoated the study's findings of treatments vs TF taken as a whole, not just cherry picking OA's effective numbers to skew my point

yes by the study you can tell some one TF and Coumaphos may be a wash...
but its wrong to say TF/treat losses will be about the same when taken as a whole, as I qouated the study does not say or imply that in the least

Its wrong and wholly untrue to tell a new beekeeper with one hive that there chances of being successful are about the same either way.
The study clearly states they have a 35-40% better chance (depending on the year) of having bees come spring if they treat with OA VS going TF. 

they have the 2016 numbers available 
The treatment group had 30.2% losses
The TF group had 43.7% loses 

the historical average (2008-2016) is
The treatment group had 34.8% losses
The TF group had 42.2% losses 
If anyone wishes wish to fact check to see I am not cherry picking got to https://bip2.beeinformed.org/survey
click on Used all Management Product click on *all* states, *all* sizes and* all *years and *all *products.. its a great tool that lets you sort threw the data quiclky
Next go and remove stuff we know doesn't work, FGMO, Sugar, and hops
now it says 
The treatment group had 33.0% losses
The TF group had 42.9% losses 
their numbers, their data, their site, 8 year average, no cherry picking or massaging the numbers as all years, all type of keepers, and all products are included.

TF is hard enuf, its harder when people out right lie about the odds. every new back yard bee keeper fed BS and then loses there bees that becomes a anit TF voice is damaging to the cause


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## Jeff L (Dec 13, 2016)

msl said:


> Coumaphos is not super effective.. mite resistance to Coumaphos is known


They mites where no resistant to it when it came out, so what are you going to do when they develop resistance to OVA or what ever treatment you are currently using.
It's only a matter of time.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Jeff L said:


> It's only a matter of time.


I don't disagree with that, I have concerns with the over use (read abuse) of oav, people doing 3-4 courses a year of 4 treatments 
My post is not protreat, its anti BS
EDIT
SP post here sums up my attatude, hes said it much better then I could, this is why I was pushing for the real numbers to come to the frount
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...standing-Treatment-Free&p=1527052#post1527052


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Jeff L said:


> They mites where no resistant to it when it came out, so what are you going to do when they develop resistance to OVA or what ever treatment you are currently using.
> It's only a matter of time.


Do you have any evidence? With OAV at least all the evidence seems to contradict that statement. I would be interested in any verifiable evidence specifically about OAV to the contrary. Something other than conjecture please. Thanks.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Beekeepers have proven to be quite adept at breeding
> varroa resistant to any miticide (in the case of coumaphos, it took us only three years). Since we really
> don’t know the exact mode(s) of action of oxalic acid upon varroa, there’s no telling how readily the
> mite will be able to evolve resistance. The scary thing is that there’s not much margin of safety between
> ...


 Randy Oliver, Beyond Taktic®, ABJ January 2017

the conjecture is that they wont become resistance... We don't know why OA works, so its just wishfull thinking that they won't become restaint, and its more internet BS being spread


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

msl said:


> Randy Oliver, Beyond Taktic®, ABJ January 2017
> 
> the conjecture is that they wont become resistance... We don't know why OA works, so its just wishfull thinking that they won't become restaint, and its more internet BS being spread


Is there not years of evidence out of Europe? I thought that Oxalic Acid had been used for something like 20 years in Europe. Not true? Is it not true it does physical harm? I've seen it at least suggested that it destroyed some portion of their legs. Not true?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

resistance to oa has been hashed out a time or two, and would more appropriately be addressed in the 'diseases and pests' subforum.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?331279-OAV-Resistance


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

I figured that would get moderated. My apologies.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

msl said:


> My post is not protreat, its anti BS


Yes. What has been done the last few posts is exactly what I said. Torturing statistics to make them say what you want.

I would have liked to go into more detailed real, non cherry picked statistics in my reply purely for the sake of honesty, but as it's the treatment free forum it's not appropriate to do that. But equally, the TF forum should not be used as a shield to promote falsehoods, in the belief there is no right of reply. Falsehoods do no good for anyone of whatever beliefs or doctrines.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> First off, do you have references to all these treaters who keep saying "all your bees will die", or is that more the world how you like to imagine it?


People have said that to me, and I don't even have bees yet. That's mainly why I started this thread, which has devolved into yet another debate...

Also, I'm a mathematician. There is no problem with statistics, only with people who misunderstand their meanings.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Sorry for my part in turning it into a debate. However, you can learn alot from the debate. Just approach with your head and not your emotions. Good luck with your bees.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

msl said:


> every new back yard bee keeper fed BS and then loses there bees that becomes a anit TF voice is damaging to the cause


Give people a little credit... I'm sure there are those who hope to be successful with one colony, but a tiny amount of searching and reading will show them that's a bad idea. If a person chooses to jump in without researching and learning first, of course they're more likely to fail, even when treating. (I've read at least 3 threads on this four alone where an unexperienced and I'll informed newb killed their own bees by treating with too much, or harvesting too much honey.)

These losses can and should be ignored. A person who chooses to remain ignorant with the amount of free resources for self-education takes their own risks in doing so.

We'll see what happens, but I think I've got the knowledge I need to make a decent go at TF from the start. I guess this thread is really helping afterall...


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> Yes. What has been done the last few posts is exactly what I said. Torturing statistics to make them say what you want.
> 
> I would have liked to go into more detailed real, non cherry picked statistics...


It seems you do your fair share of cherry picking, choosing to discount statistics that are too old for you. It's a good rationalization you had, and there might be some merit to it, might not, but it's still cherry picking.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

dlbrightjr said:


> Sorry for my part in turning it into a debate. However, you can learn alot from the debate. Just approach with your head and not your emotions. Good luck with your bees.


It was inevitably going to be that, but pretty darn respectful for a bunch of semi-anonymous Internet users. Thanks for your input I appreciate it, sincerely.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> It seems you do your fair share of cherry picking, choosing to discount statistics that are too old for you. It's a good rationalization you had, and there might be some merit to it, might not, but it's still cherry picking.


Sorry, thought you didn't want to make this a debate, guess I did not read you right. Since you insist, I did not discount the old statistics, if you read everything I said instead of cherry picking it you will see I gave some explanation as to how those old statistics came about, as did Dlbrightjnr.

As a mathematician you surely noticed the statistics were not used in such a way as to present the whole picture? 

Hey, I have no interest in a quarrel with you MonkeyMcBean, because you don't have any bees yet and therefore the sum of what you know is other peoples opinions you have read. I cannot argue with that nor wish to. When you get bees and have questions about your particular circumstances I will be more than happy to answer them for you. Although I suspect you have already decided you would discount anything I had to say.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> Although I suspect you have already decided you would discount anything I had to say.


Not trying to quarrel, only to discuss. I'm pointing out the same thing you are, that people can manipulate statistics to make them fit whatever point they've already chosen to support. We are all guilty of confirmation bias.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

All good then. May your mathematics and confirmation bias serve your bees well .


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

msl said:


> TF is hard enuf, its harder when people out right lie about the odds. every new back yard bee keeper fed BS and then loses there bees that becomes a anit TF voice is damaging to the cause


I respectfully disagree with this statement. BS is the only forum I know where most people tell their experience without lying in my eyes. I´m grateful to hear about the stories, tf or not. 
Stories about the practicing are much more important than any statistics.

I wish I had used access to BS before being influenced by fanatic autocratic tf beekeepers and mentors. I don´t mean MB, he was one of those most helpful and never put pressure on me.
His book is my bible still. It´s about good beekeeping mostly, not tf.

For my part I`m not one to give up easily. But live and let live.

Those who still want to be tf after bad experience will be estimated for the cause.
Why fear criticism?
It will come, no matter what direction you take. Smile and the day is yours.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Si Wolke there is a slight misunderstanding here due to a translation issue. BS can stand for Beesource, but BS also used as an abreviation for a 2 word somewhat impolite term starting with Bull, used to reference something stated, that isn't true.

There has certainly been some monkey business at play.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> There has certainly been some monkey business at play.


::raise eyebrow:: 

What's your problem, oldtimer?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

What's yours? 

Dude. If you going to accuse me of cherry picking when I was in fact objecting to cherry picking, while at the same time cherry pick yourself what I said so you can misrepresent it, and cast yourself as an authority figure by claiming mathmatician, then you got to have a skin tough enough to wear the flack that such behavior may bring.

Look. Anyone who can call themselves MonkeyMcBean must surely be an honest and decent soul. It is not your fault that with no experience of bees the literature you happened upon and read has left you with a confirmation bias so you cannot even read the perfectly rational post I made without feeling an urge to twist and misrepresent it. A few years with real bees will cure you of this, so I am not bothered at all.

Cheers, and you may put your eyebrow back in it's natural position, which I am sure is a friendly one .


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Wow. I seriously never meant to hurt your feelings. I was just pointing out what *I* perceived to be hypocrisy. It's entirely possible that I was completely incorrect. Either way, I'm sorry. 

You are not behaving like a person who is not bothered.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> It's entirely possible that I was completely incorrect.


Agreed



MonkeyMcBean said:


> Either way, I'm sorry.


Well hey, an apology is a rare thing. But truly, totally not needed. As you say, you were just pointing out what you percieved to be hypocrisy. I'd suggest read the whole thing again in a few days when you are less emotional and you may see it in a different light.

It's also the treatment free forum, so if you still percieve this as a debate about the merits or otherwise of treatment, this is the wrong section for it.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

:applause:


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> ::raise eyebrow::
> 
> What's your problem, oldtimer?


I don't follow this myself? Seems unnecessary.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Somehow oldtimer and I have gotten off on the wrong doot. The fact that we both seem to be perceiving the other as being emotional could be evidence that we're both not seeing each others words as the writer intended.

Let's start over: Hi, I'm Cliff. I'm one of those new beekeepers you hear about who comes to your forum and speaks with authority despite having zero experience. My convictions to go TF were wavering, so I asked for help here. It's nice to meet you. You are?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

A stubborn old coot.

Who occasionally gets a few giggles from funning with non beekeepers who attempt to school me in the ways of bees. Very, very bad habit, I'll admit.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

To be fair, I was trolling you a bit too. 

Not too many old coots use the word "dude" to start a sentence. How old is old if you don't mind me asking.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Oh I am pretty old but everyone I hang with is younger. 

But we going way off topic. I'm outa here.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

if I may… and please take this as constructive 
You went from worrying about losing your bees and not knowing what is or isn’t a treatment to 5 days later feeling confident that you know enough to make go at TF with a southern package and nuc of migratory stock


MonkeyMcBean said:


> I'm not sure I can afford to buy bees every year until some live...
> Is powdered sugar an option for the first couple years? Is that a treatment? Does anybody intentionally setup brood breaks or freeze frames of drones to reduce mites? These seem like treatments to me.





MonkeyMcBean said:


> I think I've got the knowledge I need to make a decent go at TF from the start.





MonkeyMcBean said:


> one is a commercial package supplier from the south and one is a nuc from a traveling commercial pollinator.


I respectfully submit that if you think you have enough knowledge to be successful TF with those genetics, you may not

what ever you chose, good luck


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Either way, this thread has helped me steel my resolve to try. Again, I have no idea what will happen this year or how my opinion will change. I never claimed that I will be successful, only that I will "give it a go".


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

exactly, and you are going into it with open eyes and an open mind. i'm looking forward to hearing about how your story unfolds mcbean, and i wish you well.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Me too. I sincerely hope you are successful. I hope to follow your journey. Good luck.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> I have no idea what will happen this year or how my opinion will change. I never claimed that I will be successful, only that I will "give it a go".


Isn't that the truth. You may write a story in a few years on how you couldn't handle the losses every year, or couldn't figure out how to manage your bees, and start "Preaching" on how TF can't be done "in your area/location"  Good luck on your endeavor!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>TF is hard enuf, its harder when people out right lie about the odds.

The losses of experienced treatment free beekeepers on natural or small cell comb in my experience is much better than the statistics on the BIP survey and better than the losses listed for those treating. But even the BIP survey shows that treatment free beekeepers (all lumped together regardless of skill and experience) are NOT losing all their bees by any means which is the lie about the odds that is usually being told by those fans of treating. I presented the link and suggested people should look at the whole picture and draw their own conclusions.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> The losses of experienced treatment free beekeepers on natural or small cell comb in my experience is much better than the statistics on the BIP survey and better than the losses listed for those treating.


You'd have to cherry pick your beekeepers to hold that opinion. Is Solomon Parker an experienced treatment free beekeeper?


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Cool. I'm out. Thanks again to everyone for your help and advice.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Good luck Monkey
Every one here truly wishes you to be successful being TF, swing by and give this tread an update this time next year


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well pity that ended so abruptly.

But let me give you one piece of good info that most folks here would agree with, re the plan to start with package bees or a commercial nuc. Commercial bees get treated for mites so do not have great need for mite resistance. Start with some bees with a history of several years not being treated.

One day you may thank me for that .


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