# AHb in North Am,erica



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

AHb in North America. 

What is our future?

The future is NOW.

What is beekeeping like in South and Cenrtal America? Are there any hobby beekeepers left? Or new ones?

Wake up people. We've been keeping our heads buried in the sand. Fooling ourselves into believeing that "It can't happen here. We live in too cold a climate. Those pesky Africanized Honeybees won't be a problem for me."

They already are. If Lloyd Spear of Ross Rounds thinks, without "knowing" for sure, that AHb is in New York State, then on one level it already is. Even if it's just in his mind. Perception is reality. If we didn't know that before then we'd better know that now.

An aside: For those who have read my previous comments concerning Lloyd Spears and his crying wolf. Well, my problem with Lloyd is he didn't do anything except gripe when he could have gotten people involved. People who, whether they could have done something to stem the flow or not, could have gathered base line information. I hope you don't see too much of a contradictory point of view here.

Back to my current post.

How will the perceived reality and then the inevitable real existence of AHb, or it's influence, in the rest of the U.S. and Canada effect our industry? And I use the term "industry" here to include all beekeepers, not just the national honey producers, the commercials beekeepers.

This is OUR problem, all of us together. What are we going to do about it? What can we do? We can't stop the outward migration of AHb territory, natural or artificially influenced by the ways that we move bees around the U.S., in queens, packages or semi loads. We won't get anywhere pointing the finger at any one part of our indutry, so let's not even start. 

Either we all survive, by changing with the tide, or we all go down as those guys indangering the "public" with those Killer Bees. And really, that's the way the general public sees the AHb. We may have influenced the media into using the softer name and there by gotten much of the public to go along. But when the story gets worse the media will use the Killer Bee term. That's the nature of the beast. No critisism intended. That's just reality. Sensational storys sell papers, radio and television talk and news programs.

So again I say and ask. What does the future hold? How are we going to address it? How are we going to go with the flow and not against the tide? How are we going to present ourselves to the rest of the populous?

I hope that this post is taken in the spirit that it was given. Panic is not where I am coming from. Panic is not what I am looking for. Calm, cool, intelligent discussion and suggestions is what I'm hoping for. And what I expect from those that I have "met" herein.

Mark Berninghausen,
concerned but not frightened by what lays ahead.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

I have heard that AHB have made it to Maine too via a Florida migratory beekeeper. It's been mentioned on BEE-L but I haven't heard anything specific. I just went to search BEE-L but the site won't come up- I recall now that they're doing an upgrade today and the site will be unavailable until tommorow.

I never thought for a minute that we here in the north were going to escape the AHB migration. Even if it's just migratory beekeepers bringing africanized colonies to Maine from points south for the summer, it will impact us. Add to this the purchase of queens, packages, and nucs from areas in the south where AHB are indigenous and the liklihood of finding exceedingly HOT bees in your yard increase. I'm also not convinced they can't over-winter as well as EHB colonies.

There are 2 large migratory beekeepers right here in town that winter over in Florida and Georgia, and a number of others in the general area that either winter in the south or import southern raised nucs/queens for sale in the spring. I suspect that southern-raised nucs and queens is the most likely source of AHB around here- newly mated queens could well be africanized and installed in EHB colonies and they'd never know it until it was too late.

I know that Maine is AHB-saavy and that the Maine State Apiariest has discovered AHB arriving in Maine in both container ships and by rail and is "on it" but I don't know what specifically is being done, or planned.

[ January 04, 2006, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: George Fergusson ]


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When the bottom of someones post reads,
[January 04, 2006, 06:50 AM: Message edited by:George Fergusson], what does that mean? Does that mean that you, George,clicked on Preview Post and deleted or corrected spelling or info? I'm just curious about the process, not what you edited. I'm still learning how to wrangle this here cat.

Mark Berninghausen
still spelling words more than won weigh


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>When the bottom of someones post reads,
[January 04, 2006, 06:50 AM: Message edited by:George Fergusson], what does that mean? 

It means after the fact, George realized that savvy is not spelled saavy (which it isnt) and he corrected it by clicking on edit and changing it (which, btw, he didnt).









>AHb in North America. 

The thing that worries me more than the AHB is the reaction by everyone to the idea. Beekeepers will be killing all the feral hives like they are now in Oklahoma and Texas regardless of whether they are AHB or not and we will loose a lot of important genetics. Small cell beekeepers will get accused of having AHB (they already are in AHB areas) based on cell size, even though any EHB will build small cells. Inspectors will be destroying small cell colonies. Non-beekeepers will be passing ordinances against having bees in town, when having managed hives is really the only way to crowd out some of the feral AHB in town. Migratory beekeeping will either be shut down or severely curtailed. Who knows how they will all react. It's doubtful any of it will matter in the long run.

I think the first thing we, as Northern beekeepers, can do is stop buying all our queens and bees from the South, especially known AHB areas. The second is, don't tolerate mean bees. Requeen if you find aggressive bees. The reputation of beekeeping is at stake here. We need to have nice bees so people can see that bees are nice. We need to reopen the border to queens from Canada that are less likely to have AHB so we can continue to keep the bees calm. Maybe we'll end up importing bees from non AHB countries eventually, but that, of course, is scary because we don't know what new pest we might import with them.

Aggressiveness has been bred out of bees before. There have always been some mean bees. Ask anyone who was catching feral swarms back in the 30's or 40's or 50's or 60's or 70's or 80's or 90's. I've seen some pretty mean EHB over the years. If we want nice bees we need to aggressively bred out the mean ones.

>still spelling words more than won weigh 

I spell better after my first cup of kauphy.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

The Ohio 'beeks Assn are breeding their own queens. My rather large (250) club in Ct is instituting a queen breeding program. We got ready to spend some real money on it last night. 

Dickm


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

sqkcrk 
Before we all scream like chicken little about African bees and telling everyone to wake up, take a look at these sites. Please be professional and use some common sense. We as beekeepers have always worked towards a quiet, less swarming, less stinging bee. The enclosed links to the web sites have info as to how far north plus some valuable info on AHB. No need to be in a major panic. 
There here so what!  
deal with it just like the beetles, mites, etc.

WEBB Sites:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_MG113 

http://beelab.osu.edu/factsheets/sheets/2124.html 

See #2 on Questions and answers

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/docs.htm?docid=11059&page=1 

http://search.usda.gov/search?q=African+honey+bees&requiredfields=spsite_id%3A53420300%7Cspsite_id%3A53-20-00-00&btnG=Go%21&filter=0&as_sitesearch=ars.usda.gov&site=usda&ie=&output =xml_no_dtd&client=usda&lr=&proxystylesheet=http%3A%2F%2Fars.usda.gov%2Fincme%2Fhandf%2Fhq%2Fgoogle.ars.usda.gov.xsl&oe=&x=11&y=11 

Dan 

[ January 04, 2006, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: bjerm2 ]


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I had one hive last year that came from La with an open mated queen. The hive was absolutely berserk and I eventually destroyed them. Tests showed that it had a 12% chance of being africanized. I'm willing to "deal" with them but it would end beekeeping as I know it. My sites would have to change and there's no promise of new ones. Visitors need to be warned off and I can't take the kids to look at a hive. It was about impossible to inspect the hive and finding the queen was a nightmare. [never did].

I'm "dealing" by not ordering any queens from the south. I'll make my own.

Dickm


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bjerm2, Didn't I say that I wasn't panicing or trying to get others to panic? Didn't I call for calm discussion? I thought that I did.

No Chicken Little here.As far as anyone knows there are no AHbs in NY, but we need to talk about how AHb effects us now and how it will in the future.

Great Ohio Bkprs and Michael Bush, grow your own queens and requeen "hot" hives, but AHbs influence geographically and genetically will be felt all over. Won't it?

dickm, What sort of test was used to determine a 12% chance of being africanized in your LA open mated queen led colony?

Mark Berninghausen
calmly discussing our future


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

> An aside: For those who have read my previous comments concerning Lloyd Spears and his crying wolf. Well, my problem with Lloyd is he didn't do anything except gripe when he could have gotten people involved. People who, whether they could have done something to stem the flow or not, could have gathered base line information. I hope you don't see too much of a contradictory point of view here.


Lloyd is a good, honest man with integrity. I've dealt with him commercially and have enjoyed his posts for years. Your point of view is both contradictory and uninformed.

But there are several of us here on the forum who have extensive dealings with AHB. I kept them in Africa for just under a decade. Many posters from Texas, Arizona and other places have kept them for years. If you want information about AHBs just ask one of us, but leave Lloyd out of it unless you learn something about the subject.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tim Vaughan, Enlighten me on the topic of "contradictory and uninformed". Please. I agree that I am not as informed about AHb as I would like to be and as we all should be. But when it comes to Lloyd Spear I have had personal experience with him that leads me to question his motives and tactics. What can you tell me about Lloyd Spears, in connection with AHb, that I don't know? Did I say anything about his goodness or honesty? Perhaps I called into question his integrity by wondering why he would make the statments that he did without doing anything positive with his assumptions. What would you have me do with the knowledge that I have? Knowledge that he shared with the whole world when he said that there are AHbs in NY State? I'd like to hear from him, himself. Why is it that he calls for people to react to a post that I put out on Bee-L and OrganicBeekeepers and yet he keeps quiet? That is a curiousity to me. He certainly isn't short on words or knowledge. So what is it?

So, to recap. See my first sentence of this post. Or maybe just read it again and educate me on things that I don't know. Well, not everything. There isn't enough time or space on this list.(an attempt at self depricating humor, at least I tried)

Mark Berninghausen
so if you want to talk toLloyd about me he'll know who you mean


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Great Ohio Bkprs and Michael Bush, grow your own queens and requeen "hot" hives, but AHbs influence geographically and genetically will be felt all over. Won't it?

The more you slow them down, the more watered down the genetics gets. The more we breed our own the more chance we have of buying the time it takes for the migration to either stop (because of the supposed rainfall issue or the wintering issues, neither of which I believe) or water down the genetics enough that the problem will level out to no problem at all (which I think is more likely). We MAY have to deal with AHB, but it's to our advantage to stall as long as possible.

>>Lloyd Spears and his crying wolf...
>Lloyd is a good, honest man with integrity.

I totally agree. Lloyd is not the type to cry wolf. He IS the type to be perfectly honest with you.

I believe I've already had to deal with AHB. About five or six years ago I had four hives of Buckfasts (after they had overwintered, which AHB supposedly wouldn't survive here) that swarmed in the middle of a drought in late August (which I'd never seen before), all of them within two or three days, and then they went ballistic. I've had bees for 31 years. I've taken them from trees and houses. I've seen some mean feral bees from time to time and even had a few hot hives from domestic raised stock. Most of those were before anyone TALKED about AHB let alone thought there were any in this country. But I've never seen any bees as viscous, mean, and unforgiving as those Buckfasts. They would hunt me down and sting me hundreds of yards away from the hives, days after I worked them. 10 yards BEHIND the hive they would POUR out of the hive to attack me. Then if I OPENED the hive, they really got mean. It's intimidating, to be sure, to have 100,000 bees all trying to kill you. I requeened all four hives, of course. I caught two of the swarms and requeened them. It's doubtful the other two swarms survived as the drought continued from when they swarmed through the winter and in fact all those hives I requeened (and fed) died that winter from Apistan resistant Varroa in spite of the Apistan treatment I gave them.

I think I'm done buying bees anywhere there's AHB. I'm liking the locals a lot now.


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

> What would you have me do with the knowledge that I have? Knowledge that he shared with the whole world when he said that there are AHbs in NY State?


You should consider accepting what he says as valid until you learn enough about the subject to have informed opinions of your own.


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

sqkcrk
Yes you did say you wanted a calm discussion, but I'm referring to the concept that Africans are everywhere and out to kill. This hysteria has got to slow down. As it was stated earlier, this killer bees mentality, sells papers and is great on the news. 
I breed my own also and I agree with MB that their gene pool will be diluted as well as the European bee will be polluted. Our best bet is to raise bees that are calm and not all that defensive. I have had hives back in the 70's that have given me more that 100 stings at once. I was numb with the stinging. It took me 3 very bad tries to find the queens and kill them. Took about 5 weeks for things to calm down. And yes you have problems coming up to the hive with children, animals, and yes even your neighbors.
We need to keep raising our own lines. I hate to see any hive killed off just because someone thinks they are bad. You can always replace the queen, even if it takes several attempts. My bees have to be almost squashed before their stinger comes out.
Sorry if I make you feel that you needed to be defensive but I get this all the time when people talk about bees. The knee jerk reaction is ....are they killer bees, I'm allergic to bees, or just keep them on your side. Lots of negativity towards them and I don't want to fuel the fire by making statements that the AHB is here. We do not need to do that to the public since you do not know who will be an influence in the media or government.
Do like the way this discussion is going and it's a very good topic. Glad you brought it up since it does need to be discussed in a calm way. The migratory bee keeper, hate to say this, would be the one bringing in the AHB bees in, as they did with the mites and the hive beatle. Now I know I really stepped into it. Sorry.
Dan


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

what can the average little guy like me do? willing to take action, just not sure what action is. I have around 13-14 hives.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Well,

I just assumed that annual Autumn requeening with queens mated to known drone sources would solve the problem. Of course, I tried to do this last year and found that most Canadians won't ship mated queens to the States due to all the customs related hassles. Maybe the APHIS needs to have a word with our customs officers.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

BTW: I also think the Texan Buckfasts (which are an otherwise great bee) occasionally mate with an AHb drone.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I just assumed that annual Autumn requeening with queens mated to known drone sources would solve the problem. 

But the "known drone sources" are still open matings unless you're paying for II (Instrumentally Inseminated) queens. Requeening with open mated queens from AHB areas may CAUSE the problem. Local raised queens would be a much safer bet in a Northern area.

I agree, Canadian queens would make me feel better all the way around. They will be more acclimatized to winter and be less likely to be AHB. But we can't get them anymore. The few small breeders there were can't deal with all the red tape and fees and inspections and make any money. Even the attempts at organizing one large shipment to try to consolidate some of that, so far have failed.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

>>>dickm, What sort of test was used to determine a 12% chance of being africanized in your LA open mated queen led colony?<<<

Morphogenic I think it's called. They measured the wing veins etc. I can't believe they would do a DNA in the Tucson lab on every thing that came in. [That's where I had it done]

The problem is different in states like Ct. We don't have the option of "dealing" with them. There's too many people. I'm not in a panic, I'm just being realistic. We buy truckloads of bees from the south every year to cover winter losses and to have some queens to make splits. I think that will change a lot in the next few years. It's just one way this will affect the industry.

Dickm


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush, You say "I totally agree. Lloyd is not the type to cry wolf. He IS the type to be perfectly honest with you." Well then, what would you call what he did last summer when on Bee-L he said that there are AHbs in NY State? Was that him being honest? That may have been and may still be his honest opinion. But he didn't say so, he said that he knew that they were here. And then he didn't tell the Apiary Inspection Program, he just told the world. No names or places were forth coming from Lloyd about who or where these supposed AHbs were. 

Interestingly, according to Lloyd, the beekeeper destroyed the offending colonies. He, Lloyd, didn't report that they were requeened, he said that they were destroyed by the beekeeper. Just the sort of thing that so many people on the web are concerned that the State will do or make you do. But the State wasn't given the chance to interact with the beekeeper. If that interaction had occured I don't believe that the action that the beekeeper apparently took would have been required by the state. Since other "hot" hive around the state have been found through FABIS tests to not show any Africanized traits and therefore no State action required.

Now Tim Vaughan, you say "You should consider accepting what he says as valid until you learn enough about the subject to have informed opinions of your own."

Well, on the subject of the person in question, I have learned enough to have an informed opinion of my own. As per AHbs my opinion would be, uninformed as it is, that I would like to have some direct experience with the critter. In a commercial situation, so I can see how others who deal with them daily do so. As far as AHbs in NY State my informed knowledge(not opinion) is that there is no evidence of AHb in NY State. Since I took some of the samples and I received some of the reports from USDA-ARS Carl Hayden Bee Research Center which reported in one example Probability of Type: European .999 Non-European .001, Sample Identification : European X(underlined) Non-European (underline blank). In otherwords European 99.9%, Non-European 0.1%, Sample European. They were all like that. To view Lloyds post check out Bee-L's archive for Tuesday,13 Sep 2005 14:13:12-0400, subject:{Bee-L} Africanized Bees in New England. See it for yourself.

Tim, I must say that I expected more from you considering the way you brought my intelligence, honesty, goodness and integrity into question.

How was I contradictory? What should I do, where should I look for info, how do I become less uninformed?

Mark Berninghausen


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

>>>dickm, What sort of test was used to determine a 12% chance of being africanized in your LA open mated queen led colony?<<<

Morphogenic I think it's called. They measured the wing veins etc. I can't believe they would do a DNA in the Tucson lab on every thing that came in. [That's where I had it done]

The problem is different in states like Ct. We don't have the option of "dealing" with them. There's too many people. I'm not in a panic, I'm just being realistic. We buy truckloads of bees from the south every year to cover winter losses and to have some queens to make splits. I think that will change a lot in the next few years. It's just one way this will affect the industry.

Dickm


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

dickm, Was that the FABIS test that is done at the Carl Hayden Bee research Lab in Tucson? Or did they do the FABIS test and then decided to do the full morphometric analysis? And you said that the results were 12% chance of being Africanized? If that was the FABIS test it would have read European .88 Non-European .12, right? Or did I get my decimal point in the wrong place? It may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but I think that it's important to be accurate whenever possible.

Thanks, Mark


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>To view Lloyds post check out Bee-L's archive for Tuesday,13 Sep 2005 14:13:12-0400, subject:{Bee-L} Africanized Bees in New England.


for those who dont regularly peruse Bee-L this will get you to the archives:

http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/archives/bee-l.html

this will take you directly to the post:

http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509&L=bee-l&T=0&F=&S=&X=284C082A5BD90443F1&Y=rm.allen%40gci.net&P=24052

(I see they have a new look from their upgrade)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks D.A.

MWB


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>And then he didn't tell the Apiary Inspection Program, he just told the world. 

I certainly don't know the details. But when the experts all say that AHB can't live this far North (let alone THAT far North) what is the point of informing the experts of something they don't believe can happen? That sounds a lot like you'd get accused of crying wolf or being a little off. Wait, you ARE accusing him of crying wolf! Now I bet he's wishing he hadn't bothered to tell ANYONE.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I don't think that the academic community has reached a consensus as to how far north AHb can overwinter. In any case, there is agreement that they can be transported by humans during the summer. Also, my geuss would be that the northern limit of there habitat will not be a brightline cut-off point. There will probably be wide areas of gene diffusion with some small degree of scutella traits in latitudes too far north for the purebred race to live.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Mark, I faced similar criticism as you when I posted a thread last spring about information I had received about hives coming out out of almonds last year with AHB. Now here we are, almost a year later, Rob Harrison is reporting that AHB are in 10% of Florida Commercial operations and the state is calling it a Crisis (or some simlar term). They think a swarm flew off a boat, (Which I don't buy without further proof). A sudden reach into LA, the midwest? It's us, we're spreading them everywhere. OK the guilt part is over, now what? 

No one is being alarmist, we are all professionals or at least have a vested interest in the furtherance of our industry. Those who equate it with varroa, small hive beetles and the like are only kidding themselves. I've yet to see a story where beetles killed the neighbor. This issue will cause a pardigm shift in beekeeping practices in North America the same as it did in South America. Queens, packages and nucs in the early spring, from where? Requeening AHB hives, where in light of the likelyhood of queen shortages (already being experianced due to industry forces). Insurance, beeyards, public safety, public perception. These and other issues are ours and ours alone to resolve. My only experiance with AHB is from a friend living in Trinidad when it was Africanized. One day they stung his goat to death, the next day it was his dog. On day three he was no longer a beekeeper. We won't have to sound the alarm if we don't find some potential solutions, as Mark suggested, as an industry. AHB have not been diluted (AHB traits remain dominate even in European strains)in the trek from Brazil to here, why does anyone think they will suddenly be washed out now? If there is published information that this is likely, please post it, I'm reading and reading and not finding it.

I'm going to shut up now and listen. Tim V has years of experiance in Africa (and I bet some concept of what's ahead for the industry). That may well be the foundation for furthing discussion and debate that will benefit us all. Never mind the press, we all either have large $$investments or emotional investments in this craft! Where will we go from here?

Tim, a decade of experiance makes you the Board Expert. How difficult a time are we in for?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

No expert here, but there is ample evidence that african genes can be present in bees even in the northern states. They can't overwinter as well as pure european strains.

I'm not excessively worried about africanized bees. Its not time to panic, but it is time to think carefully about how I will manage bees in the future.

The hottest European hive I ever opened stung me over 100 times in less than a minute. I've never seen any other colony express that sheer level of defensiveness. Africanized bees will mean that every colony can be just that bad.

Fusion


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

AFBs can be made fairly gentle with culling the mean hives, breeding from the better, etc.. which is pretty much what others are saying here. The one thing I hated about them is how they get set off. One minute they're fine, the next minute something happens to get them mad, and I lost livestock as well.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

>>> If that was the FABIS test it would have read European .88 Non-European .12, right<<<


Thats what it said. I think it was the more detailed morphometric test. 

Dickm


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

gentlemen, again, what can the little beekeeper do? dumb it down for me, im not on your level yet, probably never will be.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush, The "experts" that you refer to are not the Apiary Inspection Service that would be taking a sample of "hot" bees to determine European or Africanization. As far as the "experts", they are probably scientists and scientists modify their opinions in response to new data.

As far as me crying wolf. I am not the one who has made statements of fact without evidence. And you can bet, that if I were to make statments of fact concerning AHb, I'd have evidence to back it up, not strongly held opinion, what some call knowing.

MWB


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tim Vaughan,
Like Joel said, "How difficult a time are we in for?" I don't know your back ground, but if Joel is willing to appoint you the Board Expert on AHbs, that's good enough for me. Fill me in, I'm all ears. What can we expect and how should we procede?

As far as Lloyd Spears is concerned, you know him from your vantage point and I from mine. I don't know your vantage point and you don't know mine. So, unless you are willing to trade stories of experience with Lloyd Spears, let's agree to disagree about him in conversations with each other. Besides, can't he defend himself? Or has he taken his ball and gone home, again?

Joel,
It has been long felt here that one swarm of AHbs won't or can't have much impact on a certain area. It is something like The Lost Colony of Roanoke, NC. The colonists were left to fend for themselves too long without replacments and therefore didn't survive. This may not be a good analogy when it comes to AHbs and the theory is certainly open for debate. My mind isn't made up, yet. More info and experience is needed.

Mark


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

I lived in what a South African game official called the purest Scut area left in the world, but to be honest there are several people here on this board that have more "man-hours" working with AHB than I do. On the BEE-L list there are even more. Some admit it, like in South America and states like Texas, Arizona and parts of California. Some are respected breeders, like Barry Sergeant of South Africa and some are successful commercial and sideliners that for some reason or other have more actual experience than myself but don't want to admit that they have AHB, and concoct all sorts of bizarre theories usually involving native American Apis theories, Vikings bringing them over from Iceland, etc..

Pretty much everyone who's been paying attention over the last several years knows basically what's going on, but most don't speak publicly about it for several reasons.

I was the first person to turn in samples of AHB in my county, San Luis Obispo, but there were several of us who knew that they were here. We were absolutely certain that they were here, and we were right (including an academic that I wont mention here) but the samples we turned in showed up negative for reasons that have been covered here before.

Regards and sorry for my sharpness with you earlier, but I like Lloyd.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

They have been reported to be just this side of Tulsa OK, less than 200 miles form me. Being the main contact person in this area for swarms and removals it's just a matter of time before I am called by the authorities to deal with them.

My only plan so far is to keep my Golden Bee suit with me at all times and find the best way to quickly kill overly agressive colony when found.

In the mean time I do the best I can to educate the public by passing out information to every client that calls me for services.


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

well folks, I am just a house bee, but I have thought about this problem a lot. Why couldn't everyone have there hives regestered with something like the usda. Then every spring or fall or both, the usda could send letters to each telling them to keep there bees in there hives for one set day. On that day, simply poison some honey and leave it as bait for the african bees. the next day clean up the bait and release your bees. 
I know this sounds over simple and that it would kill all wild honey bees and even other bees like yellow jackets and others, and for that reason it will not happen, but sure seems like it would work to me.


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

On the same thought, the agriculture community has developed many kinds of weed control Some will not kill corn, but kills other weeds. Some kill grasses only etc. The thing I am driving at is why can't they develope a poison that will only kill honey bees so this can be done as in the idea stated above?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>As far as the "experts", they are probably scientists and scientists modify their opinions in response to new data.

SHOULD they? Yes. DO THEY? Not in my experience.

>As far as me crying wolf.

No, you're saying HE'S crying wolf, which is exactly what I would be afraid of being accused of if I were him.

>On that day, simply poison some honey and leave it as bait for the african bees. the next day clean up the bait and release your bees. 

See, I said they'd overreact and try to kill all the surviving ferals!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tim Vaughan,
Thank you.
Too bad about the negative test results (if that doesn't sound bad to say). Too bad they couldn't have been independently verified. One thing that is done here in NY when findings of AFB are in dispute is to have the beekeeper send in his own sample. Samples are taken simultainiously by the beekeeper and the inspector and taken to the post office immedeatly. Both the beekeeper and the state get results on both samples. I know that we are talking about AHb and not AFB, but maybe something like that should be done in cases such as the one that you mention.

Apology accepted. And I will apologize to you if my passion, in regards to Lloyd Spears, came through too strongly. Emotion is hard to decypher in this medium. You can't read my facial expression or body language. If you are saying that Lloyd Spears is your friend, then I can understand why you would defend him if he can't, won't or doesn't know that he needs to defend himself. I'd just like to hear from him. I tried to post a reply to Lloyd on Bee-L for his most recent comments, but it wasn't posted. Perhaps I was too vehement in my reply, who knows. It was during the change. But, unless one as an individual is willing to let the system for verification work until it doesn't and then take steps to rectify that situation how can the system work? There are procedures in place. To announce what he did in the manner that he chose says something about his faith in the system. And perhaps his frustration at his attempts to change that system. From the outside, then from the inside and then from the outside again. So I'd like to here from the man himself. On this topic and on the inspection service, as I asked about before, on Organicbeekeepers and Bee-L.

Respectfully yours,
Mark Berninghausen


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

Bullseye Bill said 


> They have been reported to be just this side of Tulsa OK, less than 200 miles form me. Being the main contact person in this area for swarms and removals it's just a matter of time before I am called by the authorities to deal with them.
> My only plan so far is to keep my Golden Bee suit with me at all times and find the best way to quickly kill overly agressive colony when found.
> In the mean time I do the best I can to educate the public by passing out information to every client that calls me for services.


hey Bulleye Bill, you get to charge about a $1000.00 for a removal like the "Killer Bee Guy" and open you a store and website  

http://www.killerbeeguy.com/ 

see there can be good in a bad thing for some.

[ January 05, 2006, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: TwT ]


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush,
On the crying wolf thing. Let's revisit the tale, the fable, the old story. I'm not generally eloquent, so sorry if this seems too dry.
A little boy wants attention.
He yells,"WOLF".
People come running. No wolf.
People go away.
Boy does it again.
People react. No wolf.
Boy does it again.
People don't react. But this time there is a wolf. And the village is destroyed. Or the boy gets eaten. I don't remember for sure.

So my calling someone a person who crys wolf is because I felt that they were being irresponsible in what and how they were saying what they said. There is a system to verify claims and it wasn't allowed to work.

So, if someone said "There are AHbs in NY and New England." And there was no sign, other than their opinion(and others perhaps). And then they said it again. With no evidence other than their own feelings. What would you call them?

***Now I'm going to say something that's going to get me grief, I imagine.***

It is entirely possible that Lloyd Spears is correct factually about what he said about AHb in New England and NY. But samples and results don't back it up. So what CAN we say about AHb in NY? We can only say that there is no evidentury proof available to back up claims made. The samples came back negative.

Mark Berninghausen


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

> Tim Vaughan,
> Thank you.
> Too bad about the negative test results (if that doesn't sound bad to say). Too bad they couldn't have been independently verified.


They were. I didn't work the message clear. We've know for a fact the AHB was here for a few years but it took until a few months ago until a sample I turned in was verified by the state of California to be AHB. But as I've said probably a dozen times a hive can be AHB and it wont show up using mDNA tests until a year or two after they've been in an area, since mDNA tests can't tell if the father of every single bee in the hive was pure scut or pure anything else. Then I had to try and explain it to newspapers, the TV station etc.. when the ag commissioner's office finally went public with a news release and gave my name out as a source.

But these issues take clear thinking, experience and some knowledge of basic science, and it's far easier to make up alternative theories based on rock carvings and Yin Yang pop psychology.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tim, I like your attitude. I have heard complaints about the FABIS test. Some say that it is too inconclusive? If that is the right way to say it. I do wish that I had a better understanding about the science that one needs to know to fully understand what is happening with our bees in the U.S. of A. I have ben calling for off season educational programs for the Apiary Inspectors of NY. I guess we are on our own in that department. Being currently unemployed, as an Inspector, puts me in an akwerd, auqord, uh, difficult position. We are hired every year. Hopefully. But who knows after my comments here and other things that I won't explain here and now. Sufice it to say that I have felt, for about 20 years, a certain fear that if I spoke outloud to too many people about things that I know or have opinions about. And if voicing those opinions or sharing un confidential information made me undesirable to the powers that be I'd never know it. They just wouldn't hire me for the next season. That's how it is done here. Usually with just cause, but I can imagine that if someone caused to much grief for the Department that they wouldn't want that person around and there is no garunteed right to the job just because you have been doing it for 20 years. So I'm rattling on here and I should probably just shut up about that. But I just thought that some of you might find it interesting to know that Apiary Inspection is not necessarily the cushy job, the welfare check, the government pie in the sky Nirvana that you may or may not have thought it was.

Hweeyu! Enough already!

Mark Berninghausen

"Pity the poor man who can't spell a word more than one way." Wm.H."Bernie"Berninghausen
p.s. by the way, Dad wasn't even really sure if his nickname Bernie was spelled, properly, Bernie or Berni. just thought you'd get a kick outa that. mwb


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

> I have heard complaints about the FABIS test.


That is totally unrelated to mtDNA tests.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I understand. But isn't the mtDNA called for when Non-European percentages are high?
I guess I'm asking about the tests in general. What are they? How do they work? How well do they work? Percent of accuracy? Which ones to put our faith in? Blind faith for most of us. And then what do we do with the information that any of these tests give us? Reveal the results? Speculate on their meaning? Repeat only what we "know" from the test results and let people draw their own conclusion?

Mark Berninghausen


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

All this talk about testing "to be sure," seems academic to me. Having had the little experience I had with my evil hive, I didn't need the test. [It was 12% africanized]. It doesn't really matter whether a hive like that is merely "hot" or is an african mix. They will all now be named African and be dealt with accordingly. This is no different than what would have happened anyway. They can be worked if they are isolated enough, though I can't imagine a whole commercial yard of them. If they are close to home they must be destroyed. Requeening which sounds so obvious takes 4-6 weeks to have an effect. By that time our season is at least half over.

They are coming;they are here. No panic, just facts. They are hiding in the open mated queens, and in the migratory colonies. I'm going to La Belle, Fl to the belly of the beast in a few weeks to get acloser look. I'll report back. BTW I was there last year and they weren't mentioned.

Fact: They have an additional element to their alarm system that EHBs don't have but will respond to. A few colonies of AHB could arouse the whole yard. They react so fast I suspect they communicate by sound, too.

Dickm


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So my calling someone a person who crys wolf is because I felt that they were being irresponsible in what and how they were saying what they said. There is a system to verify claims and it wasn't allowed to work.

Bringing anyone's problems into the "system" usually guarantees an overreaction by the "system" and a loss of any control you did have over the problem. I'm not very prone to bring the "system" into any of my problems on any level if it can be avoided.

>So, if someone said "There are AHbs in NY and New England." And there was no sign, other than their opinion(and others perhaps). And then they said it again. With no evidence other than their own feelings. What would you call them?

I'm saying the same thing about Nebraska. So I would say they are trying to be helpful by pointing out the problem so others can be aware and pay more attention.

>It is entirely possible that Lloyd Spears is correct factually about what he said about AHb in New England and NY.

Precisely.

>I have heard complaints about the FABIS test. Some say that it is too inconclusive? 

My biggest concern is that it basically measures the size of the bees. Small cell bees are going to be just as small. I've already heard quotes about how they were "known to be AHB because the comb in the hive was around 4.85mm". I have seen bees from commercial carni queens build 4.6mm. And the FABIS is just the same thing except measuring the bees.

>That is totally unrelated to mtDNA tests. 

Agreed.

I am curious. What is the baseline for the mtDNA tests? Where did they get the DNA and how did they know those bees were Africanized to start with? Did they start with some Scutella? I can't seem to find much about ACTUAL DNA tests for AFB. Just a lot of hype in the News Media that we know is never accurate.

A little off topic, but on the subject of what to believe from the media about AFB and DNA tests etc. Look at the recent AP story about a "Plane Crash in Southwestern Nebraska", followed by the article which says the crash was in Southwest Omaha, which, of course, is 550 miles East of the Western border of Nebraska and 120 miles North from the Southern Border of Nebraska. Its actually as far East as you can get and still BE in Nebraska. The only way you could get further from Southwest Nebraska is go a few miles further North. Well, I guess I should be glad they got it in the right state.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

One thing we need ASAP is a field test, usable by the avg beek, to determine whether or not a bee colony is AHB. Is there a field test or is one being developed? 

Bullseye Bill: I also do a lot of removals and living in NC with the I95 migratory beek corridor I expect to encounter AHB someday. Is there anything you do to determine the aggressiveness of a colony before you start the removal/pickup? I LIKE ferals and I like some aggressiveness in my bees and so would not kill them unless absolutely necessary. But if needed, I think my shop vac on full power would take them out pretty quickly.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I believe Lloyd was right on the money. FL has AHB, and anyone wintering there will bring back a small percentage of hives that are AHB. They are here, and we need to deal with it. We had a thread on this very subject last fall, maybe you should search it and read it. We hashed alot of different ideas over in it. MB is right as well about raising your own queens locally. Open mating will be the only drawback. As far as fear mongering, realisticly the human deaths in this country is very small, due to AHB. Pet deaths and domistic animal deaths have been much higher.

What to do:
Raise your own queens, and limit replacement purchases from southern states.
Police your own yards, and requeen hot hives.
The more you know about what happens in your own yard, the better you will be prepared to deal with a problem.
Actively trap feral swarms in your area. If you limit the number of swarms that are not under your control, you will limit the problems with open mating your queens.
Above all else: Don't perpuate fear mongering!!!!!!!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

db_land'
I believe that there is a field use version of FABIS. But, I don't know where to find it. Do you,Michael or Tim. I believe that Tim might say(at the cost of putting words in someone elses mouth, correct me if I'm wrong Tim) you'll know them when you meet them. Is that about right, Tim?

Michael Bush,
Did the newspaper spell peoples names correctly? Having been misquoted and/or having my comments taken out of context, by the press, I learned a long time ago that if they spell your name correctly that's about all that you can expect. Though more would be nice, it's the nature of the beast.

Let's remember that we are all people and thereby prone to make mistakes. And unfortunately egregious errors at times. Someone misunderstood a communication and instead of 12 survivors and 1 dead person coming out of that terrible disastor in WVa it was the other way around. Grief all around for everyone involved. And dashed hopes for the rest of us. Bless them all, miners and non-miners alike.

Mark Berninghausen


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

As two university professors in our area have said, when you start coming across hot hives with increasing frequency and start seeing large numbers of quart sized swarms late in the season, and are boarded by areas shown to have AHB matrilineal lines etc.., (search the archives here and on BEE-L if you want more info)then you have AHBs in your area. But as I've said people who have been paying attention know all these things. A regimen consisting of reading information about the subject is generally what is required if you're not fortunate enough to have personal experience or know an acknowledged expert.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tim,(if I may call you by your first name) I'm counting on you to be one of the "acknowledged experts" that I will rely on for info and advice on this subject, AHb.

I have been paying attention. But not to the same things, experts or lists that others have. So I've probably missed quite a bit. And since my scope of attention is limited to what I have been exposed to I need constant educating. I'm new to beesource.com and the other two lists, so maybe I need to play catch up. To be on the same or similar page as the rest of you. But, up until recently my scope has been NY and the beekeepers who live here or pass through here and those persons on the east coast who I have met in various ways.

Mark


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

sqkcrk, thanks for the info about FABIS. Just because a few hundred bees are trying to sting me while I rip their nest apart doesn't bother me. Selecting for docile bees MAY in fact be a contributing factor in the spread of AHB and our bee's current susceptibility to varroa mites. I emphasize "may" because this is not based on any scientific study. IMO there are big differences between "aggressive" versus "vicious" versus "killer". Vicious and killer we want to eliminate; aggressive nest defense we want to keep. Hopefully the FABIS field test can help us make the right decision.


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

While I've very experienced with African bees, I am no expert. What I did after coming back to CA having been absent for almost the whole of the 90s and finding that I no longer knew anything about beekeeping in the US was to spend hours and hours reading through the archives at BEE-L.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I wonder if db_land isn't onto something here:

>>Selecting for docile bees MAY in fact be a contributing factor in the spread of AHB and our bee's current susceptibility to varroa mites.

Maybe the genetics in AHB could actually be useful to beekeepers in North America to improve resistance to Varroa and SHB? I imagine African honey bees should have mechanisms to deal with SHB since the beetles seem to have come to North America from Africa. Anyone have any evidence for or against resistance in AHB to either or both v-mites or SHB?


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

Been sitting back and reading your replies. 

The problem of finding a hive of your own that's hot is that some how they have transformed into an African hive. We all know and it has been recorded that African swarms, small or large, will fly into a regular hive and replace the queen with their swarm queen. By the time I or another bee keeper takes a look at it questions will arise. How many after swarms have left, how many of the African drones have mated to pass on the genes, how long have they been in the wild before they took over your hive?
These are serious questions and must be considered. Just because you got zapped by your hive is only a measure and a small marker of what is out in the wild. By the time one observes the hive it would be in full swing with Africans out there in the wild. I myself do not open the hives everyday nor do I check them often enough. How many of you check them every three days or so? With in a week they might be over taken and now the drones are being produced. In various researches they say the African bee drones fly earlier than the European drones and that is the reason they are spreading so fast. They pass their genes faster that the European bees and that is the reason for Inseminating the queens, flooding the area with good drones, and lastly if you get a hot hive requeen immediately if you can.

sqkcrk, like I said earlier great topic.









Dan


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

whenever you gentlemen get a second, please post some tips on what the little guy can do. what I glean from your discussion so far is kill or requeen any kamikaze bees. that would include about half of my colonies. I keep them around for a sense of adventure and for the same reasons people swim with sharks, etc. (I am joking about all that - I plan to requeen with NWCs first chane I get.)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>One thing we need ASAP is a field test, usable by the avg beek, to determine whether or not a bee colony is AHB. Is there a field test or is one being developed? 

FABIS is the only one I know of and it's not that simple. Also, as mentioned, since it's based on SIZE, I have no idea what the results would be on an EHB small cell hive.

>I believe that there is a field use version of FABIS. But, I don't know where to find it. Do you,Michael or Tim.

Right here on Beesource, of course.








http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/fabismanual.htm

http://www.afpmb.org/pubs/tims/TG34/TG34.htm
http://www.tlch20.com/courses/AfricanHoneyBee.pdf
http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/insects/ahb/lsn42.html

>Did the newspaper spell peoples names correctly? Having been misquoted and/or having my comments taken out of context, by the press, I learned a long time ago that if they spell your name correctly that's about all that you can expect.

Since I didn't actually know the people who died (they were from Kansas), just the towns and counties involved, I couldn't say.

> Though more would be nice, it's the nature of the beast.

But that beast is our source of information. And that information is almost universally incorrect.

>Let's remember that we are all people and thereby prone to make mistakes. And unfortunately egregious errors at times. Someone misunderstood a communication and instead of 12 survivors and 1 dead person coming out of that terrible disastor in WVa it was the other way around.

And I'm sure it was a similar cause, but a much more horrible outcome. The people in Omaha just laughed that the Easterners don't know anything about Nebraska.

> Grief all around for everyone involved. And dashed hopes for the rest of us. Bless them all, miners and non-miners alike.

For the families it was a double tragedy.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

FordGuy,
I'm probably not the right one to advise you. But, since no one else has answered you, twice I think, maybe I won't do much harm. We'll see. First, of course, as I have been advised to do, educate your self. Second, get some experience, if you can. Living in SC, as you do, it's only 600 or 800 miles down into FL where you might be able to find some AHbs. Third, requeen those "hot" hives. Perhaps with your own home raised queens. Check out Connor's article in Bee Culture on Queen Rearing. Fourth, know your neighbor beekeepers. Get in or form a club. There is strength in numbers. A united front used to influence a problem can be very helpful. Fifth, stay in contact with Fred Singleton, your State Apiary Inspector. Rely on him for help and advice. Of course I'm going to recommend that last one. Being an Inspector myself. I believe in the service that inspection can provide.

What else,guys? I'm stuck for ideas. I'm sure that there is more to add. I'll leave it at that and see what others have to add or critisize.

Mark

p.s. PM me with an answer if you want to on what follows, or not. Where do you live in SC? My bees, or what's left of them, winter near Conway, SC. I usually spend 6 weeks, from March 15 to April 28, in SC, working on my bees. Maybe you'd like to join me and my other "Yankee" pals for Barbecue some friday evening. We often meet at Big D's, near Hemingway.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

OK, OK, enough media bashing. I've been reading it, pondering whether or not to comment, figuring that my comments might not matter, but it's going a bit far now.

Let me give you an example of something being taken out of context: the article about the plane crash was an AP (The Associated Press, for those who don't know it) story, but the headline was about a crash in "southeastern Nebraska." The implication in the statement was that the AP put the wrong information in the headline. Anyone else worked for newspapers? The AP story comes over the wire, and some editor on whatever newspaper is running the story writes the headline to fit into the space available on the page. In other words, some editor at one paper made the mistake about "southeastern Nebraska," not the AP.

This one, "And that information is almost universally incorrect," is just as bad. Read a newspaper. Count the number of correct facts, and the number of incorrect facts. Figure a percentage. It's a lot lower than you imagine. Check the "corrections and clarifications" column to confirm it. People remember the mistakes, though, and not all the correct information.

As far as being misquoted, I know it does happen occasionally. Reporters often use tape recorders to record, word-for-word, what their sources say. They do it protect themselves from lawsuits. What appears in print often seems different to the person who said it because we don't talk like we write. (You sit back and think, "I wouldn't have said THAT! I would have said it much better.") Out of context? Sure, that can happen. Remember, a reporter is talking to you because you're the expert -- the reporter isn't. If the reporter was an expert in (whatever field he happens to be talking to you about), he wouldn't have to talk to you.

Enough about that. I think FABIS was intended as a fast field test. Like the philosophical discussions we've had on other threads, it doesn't check FOR AHB, it checks AGAINST them. If the bees are larger than a certain size, tested by measuring wing length, they are (commercial-size) EHB and clearly not AHB. If they're smaller, they are POSSIBLY AHB and should be checked with other methods to determine whether or not they are in fact AHB, such as morphometrics.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> They think a swarm flew off a boat, 
> (Which I don't buy without further proof)

The proof is in the maps of swarms that were
reported, eradicated, and tested (DNA, not
FABIS!). The map shows a very high density
around the sea ports, Tampa being the most
consistent location where such swarms were
found. The fact that Tampa has consistently
had such a higher incidence than, for example, 
Port Everglades (Ft. Lauderdale) tends to 
support the "shipping containers from South and 
Central America" conclusion very well. So well, 
that there simply isn't any possible rebuttal.


> when you start coming across hot hives with 
> increasing frequency and start seeing large 
> numbers of quart sized swarms late in the season

When the above happens, who needs any test
more accurate than the defensiveness of the
colony itself? Its not like anyone is going
to think "Oh, well if they don't test as AHB,
I'll keep 'em".

Who the heck wants nasty bees, regardless of
their bloodline? Who wants to bother with
hiving tiny little swarms? Who wants to
bother with hiving and trying to build up
late-season swarms?

The good news is that even legislatures long
since bought and paid for with pest-control
company campaign contributions will realize
that regulations that keep beekeepers from
killing "hot" colonies that have taken up
residence in structures are counter-productive,
and will realize that the "requirements" for
pest-control operators are just about as much
a sham as the requirements to become a
beautician.

The sad news is that each community will have
to take some casualties to prompt changes to
the regulations that created an artificial
"monopoly" for pest-control companies.
The astute beekeeper association would get
proactive, and openly lobby on the point of
"how many people have to die before we
eliminate corrupt laws purchased to protect
specific types of businesses from competition?"

I suspect I will soon be giving short talks at
beekeeper meetings on the ins and outs of
obtaining an ATF "Destructive Device License",
as the best way to get around most state
regulations would be for beekeepers to use
things like a surplus flamethrower to quickly
eliminate AHB in one easy step without any
nasty pesticides. (Strange but true - an
ATF munitions license would be easier and
cheaper to obtain than a pesticide applicator
license in most jurisdictions, proof that
the state and local regulations are nothing
more than overt restraint of trade, bought and
paid for by the "industry", and wrapped up
in posturing about how dangerous pesticides
are to make it all look like "safety concerns".

The punch line is that flame throwers would
be considered more dangerous than bug killer
in a purely rational and reasonable set of
laws and regs.


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

> Who the heck wants nasty bees, regardless of
> their bloodline? Who wants to bother with
> hiving tiny little swarms? Who wants to
> bother with hiving and trying to build up
> late-season swarms?


Jim the pics I just posted were from a late season swarm. Fourty pounds of honey from one hive in early January is nice. In some areas they work just fine.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Hallaluja!! I've learned more on this post about AHB than from several hours of reading.

Jim, thanks for your info.-coming from you I know it's accurate It appears it must have been several swarms. Doesn't this mean we are starting over with the highest breed purity in the USA and therefore will have a much higher aggresive tendency as Brazil experianced in the start?

Mark, Tim, thanks for getting this ball rolling and for everyone finally kicking it around. Now we're getting somewhere!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Who the heck wants nasty bees, regardless of
their bloodline?

Precisely. You don't need a FABIS test to know you don't want to deal with mean bees. It doesn't matter if they are AHB. REQUEEN THEM.


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## buz (Dec 8, 2005)

I agree temperment is the best test for AHB. In these parts we've always had those mean little brown bees. 
The local big-bee guy tells me AHB are everywhere--so what. When he collects swarms he just tosses 'em into the bee yard. They're all the same. Just differ by degree of agresiveness.
I'm not sure, but I suspect the mean doesn't breed out as fast as any of us want it to. But I'm not supporting trying to kill off all ferral colonies. 
In the fifteen yrs I've associated with bees, things have definately changed. I keep my newly collected swarms located away from the working yard-just so it isn't instant warfare. Lost some good colonies before I realized. 
when I'm called out to remove bees, I take every precaution. People do go to hospital following encounters w/AHB, pets have been stung to death. No crying wolf. Just be prepared.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hoooowwwwlllll. The wolf is at the door. So what are we going to do about it? Or is it no big deal and we will adapt to it?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

To remain a beekeeper we have to adapt to everything that comes our way. Check the list of pests and diseases, you cope or quit.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"To remain a beekeeper we have to adapt to everything that comes our way. Check the list of pests and diseases, you cope or quit."


Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I agree. I think we'll adapt if our only other option is quitting. As an example, look at South America. I know some beekeepers from South America and Central America read this board; do any of you have any information on the types of changes that have occurred since AHB moved into your areas? Have public perceptions about bees and beekeepers changed enough to make you keep your hives away from other people?


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I guess I'll put two cents in. I'm surrounded by AHB counties here in Texas. I do cut down splits and let them raise a queen, I have supercedures, I catch an occassional swarm or hollow tree hive, and I buy a few queens. I average about one hot hive a year, but nowhere near the stuff Michael described in his Buckfast. My solution is simply to kill the queen. If I can determine that it is a laying worker hive, I shake them out. I don't care if they are AHB or not, if it has a laying queen and it's hotter than I like, I kill her. I have several beekeeping friends in the area. Nobody here is panicing, and as far as I know, no one is bailing out. I think the danger is far more from brush hogging and hitting a wild hive than from managed hives.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

(REQUEEN THEM)

Ok There's rule #1 

and we will all have to keep our own mating nucs or banked queens since commercial supplies will be in short order or unreliable. The mating yards will need to be completely isolated so as not have mated with the Aficanized drones we are requeening for??!

[ January 06, 2006, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Just in case some of you missed this thread, I'm bumping it up.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

New test for AHB in the works. Looks like it could result in the use of a computer scanner to read the wings. Won't that be nice? We'll still requeen the hot hives, won't we?

Dickm

http://publish.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2006/01/M6009/M6009.html


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I'd use the scanner to count stings on my left
arm, and based upon the number of stings, make 
my OWN decision as to the future of the queen,
if not the entire colony.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'd use the scanner to count stings on my left
arm, and based upon the number of stings, make 
my OWN decision as to the future of the queen,
if not the entire colony. 

LOL. I think that's a great method.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"I'd use the scanner to count stings on my left
arm, and based upon the number of stings, make 
my OWN decision as to the future of the queen,
if not the entire colony."

Are you sure the hive would last long enough for you to get to the scanner to count the stings????


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've got a question. If watering down the genetics of the AHB is our best hope, how will that happen if we keep killing all the feral colonies? Even assuming they HAVE some AHB in genetics in some locations, which in my experience here, I don't believe they do yet, isn't that what we would hope for is that some hybrid will be managable? If we keep killing the hybrids, then where are these managable hybrids going to come from? 

Just look at Oklahoma and Texas trying to destroy all the feral bees. The feral bees that AREN'T AHB are not only their best bet to deal with the Varroa but also their best bet to crowd out some of the AHB and to water down the genetics of the AHB. But they will destroy them just the same and leave a vacuum in the population for the AHB to fill and lose some wonderful genetics.

Luckily I don't have to worry about it yet. But I vote for the "Fischer softball test" for the ferals (since you can't open them easily) and the sting count method for the hives.







It eliminates the FABIS/small cell problems and, even if they ARE EHB it will help make all our bees nicer.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I agree with you, Michael. I, too, think we all benefit by having a large and diverse gene pool, and the ferals add to that diversity.

Like I mentioned on another thread, I don't believe I would care much whether the bees are AHB or EHB. That goes both ways -- if the bees are hot, requeen the hive or depopulate if necessary; if, by some chance, I had a hive of gentle AHB, I doubt I'd even bother testing to confirm them as AHB.


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

Ok fellow beekeepers, did you know there are people out there that will pay to get bee stings?  I think I have come with a great solution to everyone's problem plus make money!

Requeening and flooding an area with European drones will help to temper them down. I personally hate it when you pop open a hive in 90F degrees and this big cloud comes up to say HI!  Best to replace a queen of that type. I never experienced a AHB hive but some of my hives that were hybrids were really bad. Can only imaging what would it be like with a reaction of hundreds of stings instead of a dozen. Guess we all will have to adapt the best we can.

Dan


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I agree that it would be a mistake to get rid of all of the feral bees. The bigger the gene pool the better. (I hope that that doesn't sound to much like what someone else has already said, if it does then they can have the credit and you can know that I agree.)

Personally, me, myself and I haven't yet formulated any set, defined opinions on what I would do in reaction to AHb. I need more input and experience. Everything that I have heard (and that is where my point of view comes from, from the views and opinions of people that I hold in high regard.), everything that i have heard says to be cautious, not in fear, in respect. 

Like my view of snakes. Many, if not most people that I have known are afraid of snakes of all kinds. I saw a 250 lb 40 year old man get down off of a Bull Dozer to kill a garter snake. Boy was he pissed at me when i beat him to it, grabbed the snake and took it into the woods to go on it's way.

I tell this little story to reassure you that I have an attitude and appreciation of nature and living things that others who work in concrete and brick buildings may or may not have. Not to self-agrandize myself and not to put down people who don't work outdoors. 

I'm sure that rattle snakes would make me much more cautious and perhaps afraid. I haven't had any direct experience with them. Garters, Kings, Corns, Blacks, Blue Racers, Copperheads and Cotton Mouths are all snakes that I have had direct experience with. One time, my buddy, Jon picked up a pallet of 4 colonies with his Bobcat Skid Steer Loader. This was in SC. On the ground were two beautiful copper head snakes, curled up togeher. i got Jon's attention, cause I know that he loves snakes too. He came down out of the machine to watch the snakes slither off into the swamp, to carry on in amongst the cypresses.

Hope I haven't bored you with this tale.

peas, Mark


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

bjerm2

Don't know if there's anyone sadistic enough to pop the top on an AHB and just stand there, and then have to pay for it too.......But ya might find one to do it without paying????

I try to leave feral colonies alone, if at all possible. Their gentics are very important, but I'm not sure how much use they will be in watering down AHB gentics. In the 20+ years of having AHB in the US, there hasn't been much watering down. Even if they didn't wipe out feral populations(act of a very nervous public) it will take along time to tame AHB's down to a commercially useful honeybee. But one can always hope, can't they?


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2004)

I do not sign into Beesource every day or sometimes not every week, so I missed the beginning of this thread.

I consider it unfortunate that Mark started this thread by trying to make it a pissing contest. I refuse to participate in the contest, and thank all of those who came to my support. As I don't think I have ever met any of you (who came to my support) I am grateful that the result of our dealings is that you have been pleased. I try, as do most of those on the list.

"those who live in glass houses should not throw stones"

Lloyd


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> If we keep killing the hybrids, then where are 
> these managable hybrids going to come from?

> Just look at Oklahoma and Texas trying to destroy 
> all the feral bees.

If letting the feral "hybrids" survive, swarm
further, and seize more turf was going to result
in a "manageable hybrid", dontcha think that
there would have been at least SOME reduction in
the level of defensiveness and "swarmy-ness"
in the decades that AHB has spread from South
America to North America?

From a very over-simplified view, the "defensive
gene" seems to be something that is never lost
in the process of hybridization. Ditto with
swarm-at-the-drop-of-a-hat.

> Requeening and flooding an area with European 
> drones will help to temper them down.

Sure, but how ya gonna do that when feral AHB
hives will swarm at least 4 or 5 times a year,
and put all their efforts into raising brood
and building up to another swarm, rather than
storing some honey for overwintering? The AHB
hives, if not shown the business end of a flame
thrower soon after a swarm sets up shop, will
always be able to put more drones in the sky
than the managed hives. 

So, given that one is highly unlikely to succeed
in "killing all feral hives", any effort with the
stated goal of "killing all feral hives" is, in
reality, nothing more than an attempt to REDUCE
the number of feral hives, and hence, the number
of AHB drones in the sky.

If the feral colonies found could be somehow
tested for aggressiveness and even a snap
judgment made by the in-country assets on the
ground, this might preserve the bulk of the
non-nasty ferals, but leaving the non-nasty
ferals means that periodic re-testing would
have to be done just in case the usurpation
scenarios are as common as some have claimed.

Its a real dilemma, as NO ONE has succeeded yet.
Everything is an experiment, and all we know
is a list of things that *DIDN'T* work.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If letting the feral "hybrids" survive, swarm
further, and seize more turf was going to result
in a "manageable hybrid", dontcha think that
there would have been at least SOME reduction in
the level of defensiveness and "swarmy-ness"
in the decades that AHB has spread from South
America to North America?

Do you know anywhere that tried the philosophy that they were going to eradicate hot feral hives and not all all feral hives? Trying to kill all fearl hives makes a vacuum. Trying to kill hot feral hives would change the genetics some.

>From a very over-simplified view, the "defensive
gene" seems to be something that is never lost
in the process of hybridization. Ditto with
swarm-at-the-drop-of-a-hat.

Or there is not much hybridization. My point people seem to take one of two tacks. Kill them all or give up. How about killing the ones that aren mean? I don't know of that tactic being attempted anywhere.

>The AHB 
hives, if not shown the business end of a flame
thrower soon after a swarm sets up shop, will
always be able to put more drones in the sky
than the managed hives. 

And that is another part of our problem. AHB rear more drones. We have breed extensively for years for less drones. Maybe that was a bad idea.

>So, given that one is highly unlikely to succeed
in "killing all feral hives", any effort with the
stated goal of "killing all feral hives" is, in
reality, nothing more than an attempt to REDUCE
the number of feral hives, and hence, the number
of AHB drones in the sky.

Assuming that all feral hives are AHB. My point was, instead of leaving a vacuum, why not just destory the mean ones?

>If the feral colonies found could be somehow
tested for aggressiveness and even a snap
judgment made by the in-country assets on the
ground, this might preserve the bulk of the
non-nasty ferals, but leaving the non-nasty
ferals means that periodic re-testing would
have to be done just in case the usurpation
scenarios are as common as some have claimed.

But you'd have to retest anyway, because if you kill them you leave a gap that will be quickly filled by different bees.

>Its a real dilemma, as NO ONE has succeeded yet.

Exactly.

>Everything is an experiment, and all we know
is a list of things that DIDN'T work. 

Exactly. I'm merely suggesting another theory to try. The current ones haven't worked.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If letting the feral "hybrids" survive, swarm
further, and seize more turf was going to result
in a "manageable hybrid", dontcha think that
there would have been at least SOME reduction in
the level of defensiveness and "swarmy-ness"
in the decades that AHB has spread from South
America to North America?

Do you know anywhere that tried the philosophy that they were going to eradicate hot feral hives and not all all feral hives? Trying to kill all fearl hives makes a vacuum. Trying to kill hot feral hives would change the genetics some.

>From a very over-simplified view, the "defensive
gene" seems to be something that is never lost
in the process of hybridization. Ditto with
swarm-at-the-drop-of-a-hat.

Or there is not much hybridization. My point people seem to take one of two tacks. Kill them all or give up. How about killing the ones that aren mean? I don't know of that tactic being attempted anywhere.

>The AHB 
hives, if not shown the business end of a flame
thrower soon after a swarm sets up shop, will
always be able to put more drones in the sky
than the managed hives. 

And that is another part of our problem. AHB rear more drones. We have breed extensively for years for less drones. Maybe that was a bad idea.

>So, given that one is highly unlikely to succeed
in "killing all feral hives", any effort with the
stated goal of "killing all feral hives" is, in
reality, nothing more than an attempt to REDUCE
the number of feral hives, and hence, the number
of AHB drones in the sky.

Assuming that all feral hives are AHB. My point was, instead of leaving a vacuum, why not just destory the mean ones?

>If the feral colonies found could be somehow
tested for aggressiveness and even a snap
judgment made by the in-country assets on the
ground, this might preserve the bulk of the
non-nasty ferals, but leaving the non-nasty
ferals means that periodic re-testing would
have to be done just in case the usurpation
scenarios are as common as some have claimed.

But you'd have to retest anyway, because if you kill them you leave a gap that will be quickly filled by different bees.

>Its a real dilemma, as NO ONE has succeeded yet.

Exactly.

>Everything is an experiment, and all we know
is a list of things that DIDN'T work. 

Exactly. I'm merely suggesting another theory to try. The current ones haven't worked.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>As I don't think I have ever met any of you (who came to my support)

Actually, I met you at a Value Added Product seminar in Mead, Nebraska a couple of years ago.


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## olddrone (Sep 16, 2004)

As a NYS beekeeper, I just have to add my 2 cents worth.

I look at inspection programs such as those in Maine, PA, and Florida with great envy. They seem real big on education and help to beekeepers and farmers who depend on beekeepers. It seems that the #1 goal of the NY program is to provide employment (and unemployment) checks to Inspectors!

One of the real problems in NY is that many of the inspectors are Commercial Beekeepers. Talk about conflict of interests! I do not believe that is true in PA, ME, and FL.

I am with peggjam on this one. I won't have an inspector in my yards! do more harm than good.

What has NYS Inspection program ever accomplished? With their attitude of 'dust or die' and 'burn em', they sure have not helped at all with AFB. And Mark's comment about 'the law' is nonsense. If NYS Inspection program really wanted to help, the law should have been changed years ago. But they like it...it provides employment (and unemployment benefits).

And I agree with others. Spear is a real help to our industry and an outstanding guy. Don't know Mark, but he sure doesn't sound like much.

Sending you this from sunny Florida, with 80 degree weather...and not a AHB to be seen (so far).


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mr. Lloyd Spears wrote: "I consider it unfortunate that Mark started this thread by trying to make it a pissing contest. I refuse to participate in the contest, and thank those who came to my support."

I would maintain that YOU make it a pissing contest by identifying my statement as such. You and others miss or ignore my point. I have tryed to express myself as well as I can on the topic of last falls statement by you. It is on record for those who care to read and see what I said before.

Since you brought it up yourself, on another thread about a new beekeeper in the North Country. Why, with your apparent animosity towards the Apiary Inspection Program and it's employees, why do identify yourself as "a former bee inspector"? What was that like for you? Those six weeks. How many hours did you work? How many apiarys did you work? Did you enjoy any part of it? Was there any part of it that was worthwhile? Or should the whole program be circular filed? What is your full and honest opinion of the program? You can tell me what you think of me too, if that will make things better.

Mark Berninghausen


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm not trying to take sides on this thread -- I've never met any of you personally as far as I know, and I hope to enjoy the meeting if any of us ever do have a chance to meet.

I am curious about this statement, though. (You made the statement, Olddrone, so I'd really like to hear your thoughts.)

>>I won't have an inspector in my yards! do more harm than good.

What harm does an inspector do? If we're all "good beekeepers," or "responsible beekeepers," like we claim, what do we have to hide?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I gladly give Mr. Spears credit for what he has done for the industry of beekeeping as far as Ross Rounds is concerned. For what that statment is worth, to whom ever reads it.

You don't know me. i'm sorry that i didn't come on THIS seen earlier so that I had a track record for you to go by before all of this other stuff. Just trying to play catch up.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I respect and admire most of the members of this board, those in paticular are MB, Lloyd Spears, Joel, Tim Vaughn,and a host of others that I have had spirted debates with in the past. (Theres just to darn many to list). But don't think for one minitue that I won't debate something if I feel it will get some of these guys to think about their methoeds and opinions, (well, i'd do it even if it don't). I think we've been closer to the answers we seek than most know, and have turned away before it came to fuitition. (don't worry, someday I will learn to spell). For some unknown reason, or flaw, or just because. I really think MB had the answer right there, but just didn't see it. At any rate, the answer will come from common beekeeps, not the reseachers who are paid to find it. It's always been that way, and I wouldn't expect it to change now.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks peggjam. But is that "MB" Michael Bush or Mark Berninghausen. Or am I pressing my luck.









MWB
"Pity the pour man who can't spell a word more than one way." Wm.H."Berni"Berninghausen or is that Bernie


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Even Doctors of Cardiology have heart attacks.
Does that make them bad Doctors?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Would you rather have an Apiary Inspector who has had AFB in his own hives and is willing to admit it?

Or would you rather have one who would tell you that he doesn't and hasn't?

I have stood infront of the Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association and said "Hell-o, my name is Mark and I have had AFB." This was two years ago.

My talk was titled, "AFB, why the stigma?"

I asked for a show of hands of everybody who has had AFB. Some of the BEST Hobby beekeepers in NYS raised their hands. The experienced people there agreed with my assertion that you either have it, have had it or will have it.

How many here will admit to having had AFB?
What's the stigma?

The New York State average for AFB has been around 3 or 4 percent for quite a while. So why would it be unusual for someone with 100 hives to have 3 or 4 cases of AFB?

I would defy anybody to say that of the folks that I know, who have had AFB, many of them are some of the best beekeepers in this State.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Would you rather have an Apiary Inspector who has had AFB in his own hives and is willing to admit it?

Or would you rather have one who would tell you that he doesn't and hasn't?

I have stood infront of the Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association and said "Hell-o, my name is Mark and I have had AFB." This was two years ago.

My talk was titled, "AFB, why the stigma?"

I asked for a show of hands of everybody who has had AFB. Some of the BEST Hobby beekeepers in NYS raised their hands. The experienced people there agreed with my assertion that you either have it, have had it or will have it.

How many here will admit to having had AFB?
What's the stigma?

The New York State average for AFB has been around 3 or 4 percent for quite a while. So why would it be unusual for someone with 100 hives to have 3 or 4 cases of AFB?

I would defy anybody to say that of the folks that I know, who have had AFB, many of them are some of the best beekeepers in this State.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{What harm does an inspector do? If we're all "good beekeepers," or "responsible beekeepers," like we claim, what do we have to hide?}

A qualified and conscientious (sqcrk feel free to correct that spelling if you have time) inspector can be an assest.

One who is not may kill queens during inspections, do faulty testing, steal your equipment, gain an unfair advantage in business competition, waste your time by not showing up for inspections and possibly run off with your wife. 

It happens, in fact it has!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ha,ha Joel. Me? Okay CON SHE ENJ SHE ES , HOW'S THAT?

I'll bring her back. If you really want her. Your Queen, that is. Haven't you requeened, yet?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

In the immortal words of the late, great Rodney Dangerfield..

TAKE MY WIFE....PLEASE!

[ January 14, 2006, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## olddrone (Sep 16, 2004)

"One who is not may kill queens during inspections, do faulty testing, steal your equipment, gain an unfair advantage in business competition, waste your time by not showing up for inspections..."

All good points. Add...leave off excluders and bricks, put queen above excluder, make permanent markings "AFB" and have lab results come back 'no disease', screw up honey production during a flow, and tell other beekeepers the area is good for more hives. I have had all of these happen.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Lloyd, Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw BOOMERANGS.
MWB


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

olddrone,
Sorry, you should have called me back to fix things the way you wanted them. Did you complain to my boss?

No, really, to be serious. I know that these sorts of thing do happen. They are your bees. If you don't know the Apiary Inspector, make sure that you are there when inspection time comes. If you can't be there, then tell the inspector to rescedule. You can do that in New York.

Mr. Spear made demands, in writing, to the effect that he didn't want his hives inspected after a certain date, in the early summer and not before a certain date, in the fall. I don't remember the dates, exactly, that's why I didn't include them. His wishes were complyed with. To the best of my knowlege. i haven't inspected his apiaries since 1986. Not my territory. You could put similar restrictions on the Inspector too.

But what happens when alot of people do that? I wonder. 

Mark


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

{What harm does an inspector do? If we're all "good beekeepers," or "responsible beekeepers," like we claim, what do we have to hide?}

MMMM, I have nothing to hide but I do remember the inspector came unannounced and since I killed all my queens 30 of them in one apiary and gave them a ripe queen cell from breeder queens after a 3 day period of being queenless. He/she (I know who it was, and had a talk with them)  They inadvertently killed 75% of my queens when they opened up the hive and crushed the queen cells. Boy was I happy  about that and then being told that they had no young brood plus there was no AFB. Gee could they not have called me to see if it was ok??????? They told me that was not their policy, SO this is my policy KEEP OUT POSTED LAND!
No thank you stay out of my yards unless you plan on letting me know ahead of time. I have to much time and $$$$$$$ in my breading program to have some YAH-HO come and kill off some special queens in my apiaries. 
I AI and if you do AI you know it's no easy and it makes for very special queens and daughters.  
Dan


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I have met a few of the local inspectors.
They were in the area looking at someone else's yard and stop at a local coffee shop / bakery where I have honey.
They called and came over and we talked for a while. We discussed my yards, practices and bee keeping in general.
I have their numbers and plan on calling them to set up a visit when I do my spring inspections.
I have no problem with an extra pair of eyes. However, I would not be happy with someone that I did not know nor had any investment in my hives going through them without me being there.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

MC,
You must be talking about Alan and Bruce. This was Bruces first year as an inspector. He has had some experience working with the Rulisons, over the past 20 (I believe he said 20) years. I haven't had the pleasure of working with him. He seems like a nice guy.

Alan, I've known for about 5 years now. He suffered under the supervision of a guy that none of you would want to cross. He knew the laws and didn't mind getting in peoples faces in order to get into their yards. I don't know how he lasted, on the job.

So, Alan has been through the fire. He has been tested and knows bees, knows them well.

Get to know those guys and arrange to be present when inspection time comes around.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

(He has had some experience working with the Rulisons, over the past 20)

Keeping bees for 20 yrs does not mean you know what you are doing. The foulbrood thick equipment sold to the fellow in my area bought his startup used equipment from a guy who had kept bees for 30+ yrs. When his hives started collapsing from foulbrood he thought his |queens had gone bad", what ever that means. I think there should be a test!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joel, I agree. There should be a test and length of experience in beekeeping doesn't garauntee competence.

But, hopefully some of what the Rulisons know has rubbed off on Bruce. I would put them above many if not most of the beekeepers of NY. They run a very clean operation, out in the bee yards and in the Honey House.

You mentioned a test. Do you have any further thoughts on that. Written or oral, visually picking out AFB in different situations.

Testing of a sort, more along the lines of supervised evaluation really, is done when the Senior "trains" the new guy.

But, really people should come with the skills of disease and pest recognition already intact. And then any new pests or diseases shouldbe shown to us and taught to us about by Cornell's Dyce Lab.

Hopefully someone will get things together enough to use the law to stop persons who are suspected of sellingn AFB nucs and infected equipment. I don't know why something wasn't done this year.

I bet I know who you are refering to, the source of your friends AFB. Maybe something is in the works, through the legal department. No body has said anything to me about it. Not that they would.


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