# Supersedure or emergency queen cells and what to do



## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

I have a hive that I took a split from this year. I split by adding a deep brood box of drawn comb in early March just above the deep brood box they were using. In mid April I took off the upper brood box and used it to make another hive. I'm sure I left the old queen with the original hive.

I was in the original hive two weeks ago and there was a lot of capped brood. I didn't go through every frame then though. I checked again today and there was practically no capped brood (maybe a dozen cells in the whole box). I went through the deep brood box completely and found two capped queen cells. One was on the face of the comb about halfway down (2nd frame from one side). The other was on the edge of the comb about half way down (4th frame from one side). 

My questions are - (1) how do I tell if these are emergency cells or supersedure cells and does it matter and (2) should I do something to help them along or should I just wait a couple of weeks and see if there is a laying queen then.

Thanks for your help.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

If you are content to let this new virgin emerge and mate you don't have to do much. I would steal a frame of capped brood and a frame of eggs from the rich to give to the poor. If this queenless group have good numbers, shake off the adhereing bees in their colony of origin and then you positively know you haven't brought the queen along. Do the same thing in a week and your newly requeened colony will barely miss a lick. If you are in a hurry get a new queen and requeen them and pinch the cells.


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## Bsweet (Apr 9, 2010)

I agree with Vance.


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

Hokie Bee Daddy said:


> I'm sure I left the old queen with the original hive..


 I bet you didn't...


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## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

Thanks for the responses and I will add a frame of brood to be sure. I would still like to know the difference between what a supercedure cell and emergency cell look like. Do they look different. I've read here that emergency queens aren't as good.

Honeydew, I'm sure I left the original queen with the original hive. I found her the night before I split and put her below a queen excluder. The box I used for the split was above.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

How are you sure you left the queen? Looks like you took the queen to the split. 

>My questions are - (1) how do I tell if these are emergency cells or supersedure cells and does it matter and

It doesn't matter.

> (2) should I do something to help them along or should I just wait a couple of weeks and see if there is a laying queen then.

If you have CAPPED queen cells you probably have another THREE weeks to wait for a laying queen and MAYBE four weeks if the weather is bad. A more accurate guess would be to take the day you made the split and add 24 days to that. That's the earliest I would expect to see eggs. Add another week to that (31 days) for when you should start to worry if you don't find some eggs.


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## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

Thanks for the reply Michael on emergency versus supersedure cells. 

Regarding the split, I put the queen below an excluder the night before I split and pulled the split box from above the excluder. Plus the timing doesn't work out. I split on April 14. If I had taken the queen I would have expected queens to be hatched around April 30. I saw the capped queen cells yesterday and if I assume they hatched today that would put the earliest lay date at April 29 - about two weeks after I split.

The funny thing is there were about a dozen cells of capped brood in the whole box. If I assume they hatch today the earliest lay date of them would be April 24th. The conclusion is the queen stopped laying about 5 days before the queen cell eggs were laid. Does this sound like a swarm that I missed or is it normal for a supersedure queen to stop laying for a while until the queen cells are built? There are a lot of bees in this hive so I don't think I missed a swarm.

I have read on this forum that if a queen isn't able to swarm by the time the flow starts the hive will supersede her. I really went to great efforts to keep this hive from swarming because it was really strong. I didn't checkerboard but gave them a lot of drawn comb to open up the brood chamber and gave them drawn comb in a super above that. Do you think the hive just gave up on their queen?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Regarding the split, I put the queen below an excluder the night before I split and pulled the split box from above the excluder. Plus the timing doesn't work out. I split on April 14. If I had taken the queen I would have expected queens to be hatched around April 30.

I would expect them to emerge on April the 26. They will start with a four day old (from when it was laid) larvae and it will take sixteen days from when it was laid (on April 10th) , making emergence on the 26th.

> I saw the capped queen cells yesterday and if I assume they hatched today that would put the earliest lay date at April 29 - about two weeks after I split.

Then they are either supersedure or swarm cells in the queenright side.

>The funny thing is there were about a dozen cells of capped brood in the whole box. If I assume they hatch today the earliest lay date of them would be April 24th. 

If they emerge today, they will be laying in about two more weeks, which would be May 29th.

>The conclusion is the queen stopped laying about 5 days before the queen cell eggs were laid. Does this sound like a swarm that I missed or is it normal for a supersedure queen to stop laying for a while until the queen cells are built?

Not much brood sounds like swarming.

> There are a lot of bees in this hive so I don't think I missed a swarm.

Sometimes you can't really tell the difference.

>I have read on this forum that if a queen isn't able to swarm by the time the flow starts the hive will supersede her. 

Sometimes.

>I really went to great efforts to keep this hive from swarming because it was really strong. I didn't checkerboard but gave them a lot of drawn comb to open up the brood chamber and gave them drawn comb in a super above that. Do you think the hive just gave up on their queen? 

The bees know the state of a queen better than we do. It's not just about eggs, it's about pheromones. They may know something you don't.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

No supercedure cells and swarms cells all look the same. They are just queen cells after all. It is hard to tell sometimes. You kind of have to use your own judement. But, most of the time if they are swarm cells there will be a lot more of them and they are normally down low on the bottom of the frames. I have had splits supercede two or three times after being split. Don't really know why they do it. One of my best hives this year sperceded twice last year but, this year have done very well.


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## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

Well here is an update. I went into the "queenless" hive today to add a frame of brood from another hive and guess what? There were larva and some capped brood. I also saw a queen cell that I missed last week that was open. Apparently there were eggs last week that I missed too - it isn't fun having "over 40" eyes. I guess the queen had killed the others while they were still in their cell. Does that happen?

I didn't disturb them looking for the queen but everything I saw seemed to be in order. I buttoned up the hive and left them to make honey.

Thanks again for all of the responses. I'll try to look closer next time.


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## planelivin (May 1, 2011)

Hokie Bee Daddy said:


> I also saw a queen cell that I missed last week that was open. Apparently there were eggs last week that I missed too - it isn't fun having "over 40" eyes. I guess the queen had killed the others while they were still in their cell. Does that happen?
> 
> 
> Thanks again for all of the responses. I'll try to look closer next time.


Being a new beek and trying to read as much as possible I was under the impression that when that first virgin queen came out the first thing she did was go sting the other queen cells thereby becoming the first one out gets the castle, so to speak. I would assume she will fly in the next 3-5 days to get mated.

If that is correct (correct me if I am wrong) then I just answered my first question on the forum...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Being a new beek and trying to read as much as possible I was under the impression that when that first virgin queen came out the first thing she did was go sting the other queen cells thereby becoming the first one out gets the castle, so to speak. I would assume she will fly in the next 3-5 days to get mated.

Pretty close. The first thing she does is look for food. Then she wanders around a bit. Then she looks for any loose virgins to kill. Then she starts stinging queen cells, IF the workers let her (and they may not). Then usually a week after she emerges, she flies out to get mated. But it could be as early as 3 days as you said or as late as two weeks if the weather is bad and especially if there is a dearth.


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## planelivin (May 1, 2011)

Mr. Bush, I want to personally thank you for everything I have read so far you have written. Have thoroughly enjoyed reading your material and website. I know bees are your profession but thanks for also letting it be your passion as well. It helps us new guys more than you know.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

There are some general differences between supersedure and emergency cells, but those differences take a little experience to judge. Remember that E cells are built around an egg/larva already in development when the emergency comes up. So, an early indication is the stage of development of the queen larva vs development of surrounding worker brood. If they appear to be at the same age, think E cells. Of course, if the Q cell is capped, you lose that reference.

A couple of other indications are the result of the techniques used in construction of the cells themselves. For an E cell, the larger larval chamber required for a queen is basically interior to the face of the comb. They take out the cell walls of adjoining worker brood to create more space for the Q larva chamber. Because the larva chamber is imbedded in the comb, the extension of the cell usually appears much shorter than a cell built outboard of the face of the comb. Looks like a nubbin and is usually not straight down. There was a picture on another thread lately of three cells clustered at the bottom of a frame that I would consider E cells.
- Nubbins, slightly off straight down. Somebody out there find that thread and post a link.

In contrast, the ss cell is in no rush. They are normally built on "just in case" cups. I call them insurance bases or cups. Have seen the bases grow black with age and not get used. Those bases/cups are built on standoffs prepared in advance of the need and typically jut out where the full Q cell is in sight. The cell appears longer, and there is no association with surrounding brood age.

The difference in cell construction technique provides another more subjective clue. The impact on surrounding brood is more severe for the E cell. In wallowing out the Q larval chamber in existing comb, the structural support wax often overruns more adjacent worker cells than appears to be necessary. We shouldn't be too critical of their overdoing. Colony survival is riding on the outcome.

Walt


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

I've read that emergency queens are not as good of quality as swarm or supercedure queens. How true is that?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Jay Smiths view of emergency queens:

"It has been stated by a number of beekeepers who should know better (including myself) that the bees are in such a hurry to rear a queen that they choose larvae too old for best results. later observation has shown the fallacy of this statement and has convinced me that bees do the very best that can be done under existing circumstances. 

"The inferior queens caused by using the emergency method is because the bees cannot tear down the tough cells in the old combs lined with cocoons. The result is that the bees fill the worker cells with bee milk floating the larvae out the opening of the cells, then they build a little queen cell pointing downward. The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."--Jay Smith 

C.C. Miller's view of emergency queens

"If it were true, as formerly believed, that queenless bees are in such haste to rear a queen that they will select a larva too old for the purpose, then it would hardly do to wait even nine days. A queen is matured in fifteen days from the time the egg is laid, and is fed throughout her larval lifetime on the same food that is given to a worker-larva during the first three days of its larval existence. So a worker-larva more than three days old, or more than six days from the laying of the egg would be too old for a good queen. If, now, the bees should select a larva more than three days old, the queen would emerge in less than nine days. I think no one has ever known this to occur. Bees do not prefer too old larvae. As a matter of fact bees do not use such poor judgment as to select larvae too old when larvae sufficiently young are present, as I have proven by direct experiment and many observations."--Fifty Years Among the Bees, C.C. Miller 

IMO it's all about the feeding. An emergency queen may not be raised during optimum conditions. There may be too few bees, too little pollen, no nectar coming in, and they have to try to tear the wall down... if you eliminate this issues, I think they are as good as any grafted queen.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Michael Bush said:


> emergency queens:
> 
> if you eliminate this issues, I think they are as good as any grafted queen.


That makes perfect sense. Any queen raised without the old queen present is really an emergency queen: whether by grafting or by a method like what Oldtimer has been talking about.


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