# weighing hives



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Need some help figuring out my hive weights , not sure if my method will work for actual weight or just for comparing my own hives . My hives are on a 2x6 frame which is sitting on concrete blocks . I have the three hives sitting with the bottom board hanging over the back edge about an inch , just enough so I can put the S- hook on my scale under it and lift the back of the hive about an inch off the rack . All 3 hives are the same two deep brood boxes except for hive number one has two honey supers still on so its going to be hard to compare that one .Hive number one 2 deeps and two honey supers with honey 75 pds , hive number two just 2 deeps 50 pds. and hive number three just two deeps 85 pds . There seems to be quite a difference , can anyone shed some lite on this or should I be weighing them from the side , problem is I have support pieces running in the way for side weighing .


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

I am surprised the hive with the honey supers is lighter than the 85 lbs one.

Ideally, if your stand is level, the back weight should be approximately half the weight. To test, place a bottom board or similar on the stand (if you have space) and a known weight (bag of dog food or similar) and see how close to the half point you are by weighing in a similar manner. If you are close, I would be worried about the lighter 2 hives as they are too light for double deeps and esp the one with the supers.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Ok , I'll give it a try with a known weight , good idea, and see what I get , I'm surprised too because that was my strongest hive from the start and the only one giving me any extra honey !


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## cdevier (Jul 17, 2010)

Laketrout,
I weigh mine by your method -putting the scale under the back and lifting. Then I double the reading. I never checked the accuracy but this ain't rocket science.
Charlie
11 Hives zone 5


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I have such a wide range of weights was wondering whats going on , I checked it and I'm getting half my hive weight almost right on the button . So that means hive #1 is 150 pds minus the two supers and any honey ,, hive two is 100 pds and hive three is 170 pds so how do theses weights stack up for winter stores. I did notice just by feel that #2 was lite and I have been feeding it .Hive # 1 is a complete surprise I don't know why its so lite .


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## cdevier (Jul 17, 2010)

I don't know about your area , but my bees have not been bring in much. So far I have fed 150 pounds of sugar to 10 hives.
Charlie


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Laketrout it isn't rocket science but maybe 8 grade science. If you want an accurate weight you must weigh two opposing sides and add the results together. the reason is you have no idea where the weight is concentrated. It could be in the front the back or one side. I would assume it is never symmetrical and I suspect that the big difference you see from one hive to another is because it is not symmetrical. Take the time to weigh two opposing sides and then make the comparison.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Thanks Acebird , I'll weigh the front tomorrow and see if if the numbers make more sense .Would the over hand-hang front to back on the bottom board have to be the same or won't it matter.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

laketrout, what is the size of the supers? You can also hook to the back and front of the supers themselves, too.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I'm using two deep brood chambers on all my hives and med. honey supers as needed . Where are you hooking onto the boxes , are you getting under them .


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

I am thinking you should be able to hook under the edge of the bottom super. In this way you'll know what's in the supers and the brood boxes.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

The bottom boards don't weigh much I could subtract there weight after getting a total weight , its much easier to lift from the bottom board .


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## Eddie M (May 6, 2008)

I figured out what the weight difference was with the added length using the front of the bottom board some time ago, and it is so little I don't think it matters. To check you could make a bridle that slips around under the bottom board and that would allow you to weigh the front up close to the hive, then weigh again with the added 2 inches and see if you notice a difference. There would be a lot of strain on that bottom board so make sure it would be able to handle that pinching of the bridle.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

laketrout said:


> Thanks Acebird , I'll weigh the front tomorrow and see if if the numbers make more sense .Would the over hand-hang front to back on the bottom board have to be the same or won't it matter.


If the hive was perfectly symmetrical meaning the weight was directly in the center of the hive you would see a difference between the front reading and the back reading because of the overhang.  That doesn't matter because the true weight of the hive is the sum of the two readings.

Think of a bridge that has a support on both sides of the creek. If there is 2 cars on the left side and non on the right side the left support will see more of the weight of the cars then the right support. But the total weight of the bridge and the cars on it will be the sum of the weight of the two supports.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not the average of the two readings? Somehow, taking the weight of the front and the weight of the back and adding the two to come up w/ the total weight of the hive doesn't jibe in my brain. But I'm not good at math anyway.

"jibe", I think it means balance out or make sense. "jive" is disinformation, I think.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Not the average.

Mark you can prove it to yourself with two bathroom scales. Step on one with both feet and weigh yourself. Now put one foot on one scale and the other on the other scale. The sum not the average will be your weight. If you hold a 10 pound weight in one hand and hold it out as far as you can reach one scale will be more than the other but the total will be your weight plus the weight in your hand.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

But that isn't what you wrote about in your previous Post, was it? I thought you recommended weighing one end of the hive and then the other end and then adding the two together to get the total. That would be like me standing on the scale on one foot, recording the reading, and then the other foot, recording that reading, and adding the two together.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

I weigh my hives by weighing one end and doubling it. I have tested the theory with a known weight on a bottom board. Weighing either end and doubling it is very near accurate. The error is insignificant. I have off set the weight to one end and weighed it too. It still comes very close to the "true weight" by doubling it.
Dave


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## justusflynns (Aug 2, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> But that isn't what you wrote about in your previous Post, was it? I thought you recommended weighing one end of the hive and then the other end and then adding the two together to get the total. That would be like me standing on the scale on one foot, recording the reading, and then the other foot, recording that reading, and adding the two together.


Think of the side not being lifted as "the other foot"...on a scale you can't get any data from.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> If the hive was perfectly symmetrical meaning the weight was directly in the center of the hive you would see a difference between the front reading and the back reading because of the overhang. That doesn't matter because the true weight of the hive is the sum of the two readings.
> 
> Think of a bridge that has a support on both sides of the creek. If there is 2 cars on the left side and non on the right side the left support will see more of the weight of the cars then the right support. But the total weight of the bridge and the cars on it will be the sum of the weight of the two supports.


I'm gonna go beat my head against a brick wall. You tell him to weigh the hive from the front and then weigh the hive from the back and add the two measurements together to determine the total weight of the hive?

Then you say the weight of a bridge is two cars and the weight of the supports?

What's the difference between an Orange? Ducks fly sideways.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Last time I inspected I had a few hives that were already good to go - so I heft them from the back and compare the rest to them. No idea what they weigh.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I'm gonna go beat my head against a brick wall. You tell him to weigh the hive from the front and then weigh the hive from the back and add the two measurements together to determine the total weight of the hive?
> 
> Then you say the weight of a bridge is two cars and the weight of the supports?
> 
> What's the difference between an Orange? Ducks fly sideways.


Actually I believe he is correct. If you put both ends of a 20 pound plank on scales they would each read 10 pounds (more or less). Then if you put 4 five pound bricks on the plank the total of the scale readings would be 40 pounds no matter how you arranged the bricks. I think.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If you had something which weighs 100 lbs, lets say a bar of steel or a log of wood, and you attatched one end to a hanging scale and the other end on the ground, are you telling me the scale would read 50lbs?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If it was pretty much horizontal. The more it stands up the more weight transfers to the lower end. Ever help carry a couch up stairs?


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Here is what I found after weighing the front and back - hive #1 bk 60 frt 50 =110----- hive #2 bk 50 frt 35 -85----- hive #3 bk 85 frt 70 = 155


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

It is _not _correct to say that the _actual _weight of a hive is the *sum *of the weight of the front and back weighed separately. What you get is an _approximate _weight, but that approximate weight will be _less _than the actual weight.

The problem is that when you slightly lift the end with a hook, as soon as that end is raised even slightly, some of the weight is shifted to the end of the hive not being weighed. Then when you go weigh the other end, the act of raising that end of the hive shift some of the weight onto the end that is not being weighed. Both ends are _short-weighed_ to some degree. The amount of the shift is dependent on how high the end is lifted.

If you think about Mark B's example in post 23, you will see this concept illustrated in the extreme. Or tilt a hive body up high enough so that you can keep it tilted on edge with two fingers. Virtually all the weight has been shifted to the lower edge in this extreme example.

If you weigh each end separately by raising that end slightly with a scale, and then repeat at the other end, the total hive weight will be the sum of the two weights, *plus *_some additional amount_. What that additional amount is depends how much you tilt the hive in the act of weighing each end.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

What kind of weights should I be looking for going into winter in PA , with two deeps .


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## Eddie M (May 6, 2008)

If the hive was perfectly symmetrical meaning the weight was directly in the center of the hive you would see a difference between the front reading and the back reading because of the overhang. That doesn't matter because the true weight of the hive is the sum of the two readings.

This is true so long as the "fulcrums" at the front and back are on the ends of the hive at the same place as it is weighed from. If the hive hangs over the back of the hive stand an inch or 2 that would really throw the readings off by quite a bit. 

Dave is right that doubling the weight is close enough. We just heft them and know if there is enough honey in there for the winter.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

First year combs at least, get drawn out more completely towards the rear of the hives and usually make the rear at least 5 lbs heavier than the front end. If you are *that* close to *survival critical* weight that these small math errors matter, then you should be putting your mind to ways of getting feed on them. Knowing within an ounce of exact weight wont bring peace of mind if that amount is short or marginal!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> That would be like me standing on the scale on one foot, recording the reading, and then the other foot, recording that reading, and adding the two together.


Absolutely not!
When you put the scale under one side the other side is still supported by the hive stand. If you had two scales and put one under each side both would register weight which is like you standing on two scales. Now if you rock the hive over on to one scale like you standing on one foot you would then register the full weight of the hive.

I am sure you have driven over a highway scale with your truck. Most likely there are four scales under that platform where the weights are all added together to measure your load. That way no matter where you park the truck on that platform they can measure your total weight by just adding all the weights together.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Eddie M said:


> Dave is right that doubling the weight is close enough.





laketrout said:


> Here is what I found after weighing the front and back - hive #1 bk 60 frt 50 =110----- hive #2 bk 50 frt 35 -85----- hive #3 bk 85 frt 70 = 155


So looking at laketrout's data in hive #2 doubling 50 would be 100 and doubling 35 would be 70, that's close enough? If I am going to take the time to weigh a hive I am going to take the time to actually find the real weight. I can't help myself.

Rader, you are picking fly poop out of pepper.

Mark in the case of the steel bar most certainly yes but the log might have more weight favoring one end. In this case like the hive you should weigh both ends.

Nothing is better than proving the concept to yourself so do as David suggested with bricks or blocks on a plank and two scales.

Laketrout, I think 155 is good, 110 is iffy and 85 might be hurting. Of course it is not the number of boxes that matters it is the size of the colony, the race of bees, the health of the colony and the weather to come that matters.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Nothing is better than proving the concept to yourself so do as David suggested with bricks or blocks on a plank and two scales.


If you want to test the accuracy of adding weights of both ends weighed separately, you only need one scale and a hive body or two. (You can do this without bees in the box.) Just weigh each end, then shift the scale so the entire weight of the boxes is entirely on the scale.

Add the first two weights together, and compare to the third weight. Calculate the percentage difference, and apply that percentage to your live hives.



Acebird said:


> If I am going to take the time to weigh a hive I am going to take the time to *actually find the real weight.* I can't help myself.


You claim to be driven to _accuracy_, yet you fail to recognize the inherent inaccuracy of the method you promote! :gh:


Acebird said:


> Rader, you are picking fly poop out of pepper.


:ws:


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> It is not correct to say that the actual weight of a hive is the sum of the weight of the front and back weighed separately. What you get is an approximate weight, but that approximate weight will be less than the actual weight.


Alright Rader - if you want to get all technical then no matter how you measure anything you ALWAYS get an approximation. Exactitude is a myth, precision is defined by margin of error. So using more or less precise measurements only results in a lower margin of error - never an EXACT measurement.

If you try to get exact enough then you invoke the Heisenber uncertainy principle which claims that the mere act of measuring something on a quantum level causes a systematic error.

But, hefting the back of a hive achieves a measurement which is sufficiently accurate within the required margin of error for practical beekeeping.

Apparently we have too much time on our hands here.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

laketrout said:


> What kind of weights should I be looking for going into winter in PA , with two deeps .


You are looking for at least 130 - 150 gross. Here are more details. The hive that is 85 lbs. is a good candidate for a single.

If you can downsize hive #2 to a single, you will only need about 25 lbs. sugar on hive #1 which is about 5 gal of 5:3 (if you have 2 more weeks of nice weather to store it) or a good size candy board.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> You claim to be driven to _accuracy_, yet you fail to recognize the inherent inaccuracy of the method you promote! :gh:


You make me laugh Rader. You should be smart enough to recognize that when the weight decreases because you lifted it to high that you would take the highest reading. That comes natural to me. I guess you have to work on it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> You make me laugh Rader. You should be smart enough to recognize that when the weight decreases because you lifted it to high that you would take the highest reading. That comes natural to me. I guess you have to work on it.


If your method is so _accurate _and _easily understandable_, why did you feel the need to explain it by using _cars on a bridge?_ :scratch:



Acebird said:


> That doesn't matter because the true weight of the hive is the sum of the two readings.
> 
> Think of a bridge that has a support on both sides of the creek. If there is 2 cars on the left side and non on the right side the left support will see more of the weight of the cars then the right support. But the total weight of the bridge and the cars on it will be the sum of the weight of the two supports.


:gh:

"Where's that confounded bridge?" 


.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Would it be a good idea to shift some frames around , take some from the heaviest hive and switch them with some in the lite hive .Or better to just feed .


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

You really don't have much to spare. Go through hive #2 and see if you can locate 5 capped frames of honey (the heaviest ones), 2 pollen frames and 2 frames of brood or mostly open space (since you might not have brood this time of year). Then put them in a one deep with the honey to the outside walls and the brood in the middle.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I rob from the rich and then feed them all if needed. It's easier to get 20 hives to gain a total of 100 pounds than to put 25 pounds each on 4 really light ones.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

David's method also likely reduces the chances that the weaker hives will be targeted by robbers from the stronger hives. If only the weak hives were getting fed, potential robbers could smell that.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If you feed, feed them all. Especially feed the stronger colonies. Those are the ones that you will split in the Spring. While the ones you merely get thru the Winter because you fed are not.

If you open feed, it's the strong ones that get the feed.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> If you open feed, it's the strong ones that get the feed.


Does distance matter? The times that I have open feed (on the deck) there was a host of insects taking part in the feast. I didn't see too much fighting even with rival insects. Maybe it was the time of year. Although I have let the bees clean up my extractor and I know that would have been fall. I don't remember seeing much fighting there either.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Strong hives have more foraging bees.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

OK that makes sense.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I was afraid to feed the strong hive they have that top deep so full I can hardly lift it , I was thinking it would crowd them even more . Or can the top deep be packed full and they they pretty much live in the bottom deep .Also I have some wet frames , can I feed them in a empty box on top of the inner cover while treating with MAQS.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Well, now I am beginning to wonder. Are you calling a strong hive one with a lot of honey or one with a lot of bees?

I think of a strong hive as one with a lot of bees with adequate honey. I don't see a lot of sense in treating a strong hive but that is another subject.

What are your goals for next year?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> I was afraid to feed the strong hive they have that top deep so full I can hardly lift it 

If you take some of those honey frames and give them to the weaker hives as David suggested, then there will be room for the strong hives to store more.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Acebird , The strong hive #3 to me is very heavy with honey in the top deep and weighs in at 155 pds. also its overflowing with bees . Maybe i'm wrong in treating it , I was told to treat all hives in the bee yard if any of your hives test positive for mites and just assumed it would have mites to , does a strong hive mean it won't have mites.My goal next year is to expand just a little and split my strong hives.

Rader , So if I understand I could move some good frames from the strong hive over to the weaker one , if so what do I want to move , brood or just honey and brush the bees off .


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>  I could move some good frames from the strong hive over to the weaker one , if so what do I want to move , brood or just honey and brush the bees off .

Your original question was about feeding. And David's response was about moving honey frames from the stronger hives and then feeding all hives. If that is your goal, then there is no need to move brood or bees. Just brush the bees off the honey frames you want to move.

If you want to strengthen weaker hives by moving bees/brood, that is a different issue, but also possible. You do need to make sure that you are not accidentally moving the queen. _David LaFerney_ offers good advice on this in one of your earlier threads. See post #7. 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...98&highlight=equalize+brood+frames#post976898


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Rader , When I was talking about moving frames I meant taking frames of honey from the heavy hive and putting them in the top deep of the lighter hive to boost up there weight and stores for winter , two full frames of honey could beef up the 85 pd #2 hive buy almost 15 to 20 pds. ,is this a good or bad idea.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Laketrout, I don't treat so you don't want to listen to me. My logic is that the strong hive wouldn't be strong if it was infested with mites. The weak hive could be succumbing to mites but you won't know if they can make it on their own if you treat.

Next spring will tell you which hive is the strong hive and that is the one I would split. The weak hives will perish so you use that equipment for your splits or expanding apiary.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Brian,
Strong hives can be infested w/ mites. As long as the ratio is not burdensome the strong hive will Winter fine.

Weak hives may not be weak from mites and not burdened by mites and still not last thru winter. Or they might.

Of course Spring splits should be made from the strong hives. Unless, later in the year you follow Michael Palmer's Nuc building program and make nucs from underproductive colonies.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Since it is getting late in the season, you can potentially load a super of empty frames (preferably drawn) on the 155 pound hive (under their full supers, as close to the nest as possible) and feed them, so they fill the frames. Couple positives: 1) the strong hive should be able to take care of any robbers and 2) they have the right mixture of bees to store and cap quickly (as evidenced by the fact that they produced supers). Then take the frames out of this super and supplement the weaker hives. You can always do candy boards after frost, too.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Unless, later in the year you follow Michael Palmer's Nuc building program and make nucs from underproductive colonies.


He raises queens and I would assume he doesn't let the runts raise their own queen.
The colony that can handle what ever is thrown at it is the colony I want in my apiary. Without lifting a finger spring tells me which one that is.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

This is interesting , I have my first 24 hr. mite count with MAQS after taking my honey off. The strong hive #3 at 155 pds had 850 mites , hive #2 the weak hive had 175 and my best hive the only one that gave me any honey #1 50 mites but this one was odd, the bees moved all to one side of the deep , there was no debris on the count sheet on the one side and no mites either .I'll keep checking , weather has been cool not much sun but they are flying .


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What about your Nosema levels. Don't forget the nosema.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

What do guys think of these counts , I think the heavy hive would have been dead come spring with so many mites , can't figure out why the one with only 50 mites and only mites on half of the board .

Nosema ,sqkcrk , I wasn't going to worry about it as I have no way to test for it , what are you doing treating anyway as a precaution. I do have a bottle of Fumagilin-B let me know if you recomend me using it . Not sure if this would be a sign of trouble but I have noticed the hive that had so many mites has alot more bee poop on the front landing than the other hives , could it be nosema or is that dysentery ?


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

laketrout,

I have no idea on the one-sided mite drop. I was wondering if maybe that's where the cluster space / nest is.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

merince , thats what it looks like there all clustered on one side but we have warm enough temps for them to move around and fly and the other hives aren't having a problem .


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

laketrout said:


> What do guys think of these counts , I think the heavy hive would have been dead come spring with so many mites , can't figure out why the one with only 50 mites and only mites on half of the board .


Well if you go back to your weight measurement you can clearly see that stored honey is not symmetrical. You will not get a lot of mite fall in the honey section. I have seen mites rain down in the tray below and then nothing. How does one tell if high mite fall is a good thing or a bad thing? I have seen wax chips all on one side. I think you will go nuts trying to make bees fall into a pattern that you can predict without having many exceptions. They can adapt. They will never put a sister or brother on the moon but they will survive a nuclear holocaust better then we will because they are adaptable and we aren't.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

laketrout,
The mites are usually found on the nurse bees, not on the foragers (or there are a lot less mites on the foragers). So while the foragers will be all over the honey frames in the warmer temps, the nurse bees will stick around the brood nest / cluster area.


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## reef10 (Jul 3, 2012)

I put my hives on a perfectly balanced tetor toter to make lifting the back and front with a scale easier. Now all of my hives weigh 0lbs. Is this enough for winter?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Now all of my hives weigh 0lbs. Is this enough for winter?

You forgot to add the weight of the _two cars _and the_ bridge_!

:gh:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The comedy sketches of reef10 and Rader.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

In Mark's case, he prefers to use a 100 lb _steel bar_ in place of the bridge ...



sqkcrk said:


> If you had something which weighs 100 lbs, lets say a bar of steel or a log of wood, and you attatched one end to a hanging scale and the other end on the ground, are you telling me the scale would read 50lbs?



:gh:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If I stack three fourway pallets of dbl dp hives on top of each other and I can pick them up w/ my Bobcat I know they weigh less than 1200lbs total so I'd better feed them.

If I stack two pallets on top of each other and can't lift them then I know I left too much honey in them.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If you would like a weighing system for a Bobcat with more than two possible "results", one option is to install a hydraulic scale calibrated to your particular skidsteer: :lookout:

http://www.contool.net/Tara54001.pdf


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When I go to a restaurant and notice that there aren't any prices on the menu I know I can't afford to eat there.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I understand and agree with your menu comment.  Industrial items are hard to find prices for, sometimes. Here is a similar hydraulic scale for $800.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORKLIFT-HY...D-LOADER-/280874187273?_trksid=p2054897.l4276


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