# 2019 Lusby conference cancelled, no signups.



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

2019 Lusby Conference blows up, virtually nobody signed up.

Guess the thought of getting mauled by bloodthirsty Arizona Africanized bees didn't appeal.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

This might be a sign that the beekeeping fad that started with CCD in 2006 is finally waning.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

odfrank said:


> This might be a sign that the beekeeping fad that started with CCD in 2006 is finally waning.


Quite possibly. 
I met Dee Lusby and there's no doubt that she has a lot of bee knowledge, but it's also no secret that she can be abrasive and off putting to some. I've found her to be way more approachable in private than in a public setting.
I've never been to the conference she puts on, but I've seen/heard some of the speakers that attend that conference - Kirk Webster, Michael Bush, Sam Comfort. I found those talks interesting and learned something from each. I've also learned from others like Randy Oliver, Mike Palmer, Samuel Ramsey, Dave Tarpy. There's a lot of bee knowledge from many sources, and Dee's approach was limiting the knowledge to some sources.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

From my own perspective, I feel the Treatment-Free movement is sagging under the weight of dead bees. I did it myself for 6 years, so I understand the interest. But I think the more one learns about bees and beekeeping, the less the old Bond method seems to make any sense, and it's hard to make meaningful breeding progress without I.I. coupled with knowledge of honey bee genetics, geographic isolation or control of the vast majority of the local population. When I got back into bees in '09, it seemed like the majority of new beekeepers were anti-commercial and treatment free. Now, a quick look at the Facebook groups and it looks like the new norm is sidelining as an almond pollinator. 

Dollars and sense.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That last youtube video probably didn't do her any favors. There's no doubt her bees are survivors, but the dilapidated gear and crazy working environment will not appeal to many.

As i understand, Dee now has a hip problem and relies on help from volunteers drawn from these conferences. If that dries up, her operation may dissolve into the desert sand.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

The last few videos show she is in no shape to debate, right or wrong, its a dead end.
Having dealt with elder parents( talking 4 DR appointments a week, dementia, ass wiping, bathing and diaper changes here....If you could still get out of bed and walk, you still had a place in my home), I hope my daughter judges me by who I was, not what I became in the end, so we should give Dee the same respect.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>2019 Lusby Conference blows up, virtually nobody signed up.
>Guess the thought of getting mauled by bloodthirsty Arizona Africanized bees didn't appeal.

Dee has been unable to walk without crutches for several years now. She is in constant pain. Age and failing health are catching up to her. I don't see how she gets anything done under her current circumstances. Gloating seems inappropriate.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Gloating seems inappropriate.


 Understatement of the year. Time and circumstance will come to us all. I am fortunate to have lived 59 years and still be healthy.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

So how does she get anything done? Is it from volunteer helpers?

I am sure she will want to pass on the mantle and been wondering what will happen, been thinking the only way that could happen if someone was keen enough to take the whole thing over, lock stock and barrel. If it is still generating revenue, a younger fit person could build new gear and gradually replace stuff.

Although it would be a big job. Reading Dee in the past, I've been amazed how much energy she must have had, for example each piece of comb foundation was made by hand.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Is this her most recent talk? Published January 2019?





At the end she claims that bees get 80-90% more gentle when combs are properly Housel Positioned.  And claimed that cold causes DWV.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Fusion_power said:


> Understatement of the year.


From my very humble vantage point, I could not agree more. Whether one agrees with Dee's approach or not, it is remarkable what she has (and continues) to accomplish despite the obstacles. The example of dogged determination is commendable.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Regarding the content of the linked video, I thought it is generally well accepted there is no benefit to Housel positioning . . . ?




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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Some speakers are good and some are not so good. But, anyone speaking about our passion should be respected. Sorry that Dee is not having success.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

shinbone said:


> Regarding the content of the linked video, I thought it is generally well accepted there is no benefit to Housel positioning . . . ?


You are correct that majority opinion is that housel position offers no benefit. However if some folks like Dee adamantly believe that housel positioning makes their bees gentle, then obviously, who are any of us to argue?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> You are correct that majority opinion is that housel position offers no benefit. However if some folks like Dee adamantly believe that housel positioning makes their bees gentle, then obviously, who are any of us to argue?


Dee Lusby has forgotten more about beekeeping in one day than I will ever know in my lifetime, but "gentle" bees is not what I think of when I see videos from the Lusby apiary. Reminds me that even highly respected scientific experts can misinterpret their observations. One particularly famous example is Prof. Percival Lowell:

https://www.nytimes.com/1906/12/09/...-mars-prof-percival-lowell-recognized-as.html






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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

I have no personal knowledge of Dee Lusby but through a beekeeper that started when I did when we first formed a local Club. My friend advocated treatment free and even got Sam Comfort to come to our new Club. She followed Dee’s (and husband) treatment free teaching passionately. That was in 2011. I don’t believe she knew/understood (at that time) about the AHB that Dee had and how that and her isolated location contributed to her success of TF.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

Cloverdale said:


> I don’t believe she knew/understood (at that time) about the AHB that Dee had and how that and her isolated location contributed to her success of TF.


Your point is well taken and valid. But it is possible to keep bees treatment free and not have them die. For me that entails splitting the hives, monitoring for mites ( and requeening colonies that have high counts ), integrating VSH genetics, using darker bees and being ok with smaller honey harvests.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Marcin said:


> But it is possible to keep bees treatment free and not have them die.


In some locations.

Try it where i am, won't work.

How do i know this? i tried it and followed Dees teachings to the best of my abilities over a 2 year time frame. Ended up losing every single hive. At that time i was scoffed at by some in the treatment free camp, it was my fault, somehow, somewhere, i must have done something wrong, they said. 

I didn't think so, and my belief was confirmed when over time, 2 TF beekeepers from overseas emmigrated to my country, got hold of some bees, then jumped onto our local bee chat forum and denigrated all NZ beekeepers for poisoning their bees and being ignorant (yes that, and other words were used). One of these guys collected swarms and did cutouts and quickly built up more than 50 hives. He was a fervent Dee Lusby follower and stated that his small cell bees would not even get AFB. He also advertised and sold several of his special nucs for NZ$3,000, that's just over US$2,000. Everybody was watching to see how he would go, as to be straight up the guy had been extremely abnoxious and condescending. Anyhow, all of a sudden, his posts on the forum stopped, he went silent.


Later, i talked to a beekeeper who had visited him. He told me they looked at his bees together, all but 3 hives were dead, and the 3 that were alive were nearly dead. Pity the guy himself, in the interest of full education, did not have the integrity to go back online and admit the whole thing didn't work. There are still newbies reading his posts and trying his methods, only to lose their bees.

Anyhow to my point, beekeeping is local. This guy had been a successful TF beekeeper overseas. His mistake was to assume that his methods would work anywhere.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> In some locations.
> 
> Anyhow to my point, beekeeping is local


True. #1 rule in beekeeping is that ALL beekeeping is local.
And, for the record, I wasn't saying that Dee's methods are the only way. I like Sam Comfort's approach of "treatment free but not stupid" much better. In the end, do what works for you that keeps your bees productive, healthy and not a source of problems for your beekeeping neighbors.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Agreed Marcin. I have very much enjoyed some of Sam Comforts videos. He has an excellent understanding of bees, and has walked both sides of the fence, migratory commercial, and now TF top bars. Like every successful beekeeper he has settled on a method that is working for him, and giving him the lifestyle he enjoys.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

I believe Sam has hives/yards that are pretty well isolated, which supports “all beekeeping is local”and his management style. There is a somewhat local man that lives about an hour or less from me (Cooperstown area) a retired Dr. of hematology who has been beekeeping about 40 years and is an EAS Master Beekeeper. He tried treatment free for about 4 years and stopped, unfortunately it didnt work for him. I truly wish I could be. I saw Kim Flottum do a presentation (utube) on drones at the National Honey Show. He will use drone comb in hives in a cycle of every week or so adding a frame then removing when capped. He says by July or so his counts are low, like one mite. These are hives he doesn’t worry about passing on genetics. I have to watch again, he talks about it briefly at the end. Deb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_rH9ZEh_-Q


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

http://www.honeyshow.co.uk/lecture-videos.php

Link to the lecture videos


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Marcin said:


> But it is possible to keep bees treatment free and not have them die. For me that entails splitting the hives, monitoring for mites ( and requeening colonies that have high counts ), integrating VSH genetics, using darker bees and being ok with smaller honey harvests.


it would be great to hear more about your treatment free experience in northern illinois marcin. please consider hosting a thread here in the tf subforum if you are so inclined.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Cloverdale said:


> I saw Kim Flottum do a presentation (utube) on drones at the National Honey Show. He will use drone comb in hives in a cycle of every week or so adding a frame then removing when capped. He says by July or so his counts are low, like one mite. These are hives he doesn’t worry about passing on genetics.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_rH9ZEh_-Q


Deb:

Just wanted to thank you for posting this video. Had the opportunity to watch and it was quite informative. I chuckled when Kim quipped that his wife reminds him every fall that he is a drone...


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> In some locations.
> 
> Try it where i am, won't work.
> 
> How do i know this? i tried it and followed Dees teachings to the best of my abilities over a 2 year time frame. Ended up losing every single hive. At that time i was scoffed at by some in the treatment free camp, it was my fault, somehow, somewhere, i must have done something wrong, they said.


Sadly, I fell into this category as well.

I went treatment free from 2005 to 2011. Natural comb and utilized the techniques of most of the advocates of TF systems back then (Dee being one, although I never actually met her). I started out trying on a hand full of hives. Over the years my operation grew to 65 colonies. All from local stock that was kept treatment free for over a decade (my own stock from local swarms from 2005-2008 when I had high losses, then I bought 6 colonies from a guy 8 hours away that his health failed him and wasn't able to open his colonies for a decade and they survived despite not being treated). 

And then in 2011 my hives collapsed. First a few. Then robbing started. Then more. I went into summer with 65 colonies. I went into winter with 5 colonies. I came out of winter with 0 colonies.

My natural comb didn't work. Rather than reverting from 5.4mm cells to 5.1mm or smaller, their cells ended up being 5.9mm (all on their own, I don't know why). Treatment free didn't work. Local, adapted, survivor stock didn't work. I asked members of the TF crowd why, and I got a resounding "I don't know" or instead, and probably worse, many blamed me for being a bad beekeeper, or telling me I did something wrong. 

Something happened, something didn't work for me when it did for others. No one could identify why (including myself). So I asked several prominent TF beekeepers how they would suggest I start over. I had an opportunity, a clean slate to draw on, so how should it be done? What bees should I get, what should I do differently. I asked 5 of the most known TF beekeepers at the time. 4 wouldn't give me an answer. 1 told me to find "treatment free stock." When I asked what stock he'd suggest, or if I could purchase one of his queens, I never got a response. So I moved on and abandoned natural comb, and abandoned TF. My bees are healthier now than they were before. And I have bees.

None of this is an indication that TF will or won't work for someone else though, it's just my experience.

The TF group has always had social issues. Those that claimed success, even though they didn't understand why, were given a bejeweled soapbox. Those that provided criticism or skepticism (some justified, but much of it provided harshly and not constructively) were often attacked. Those members of the TF group that weren't successful (myself and Oldtimer, for example) were ridiculed. The number of individuals starting beekeeping is getting smaller by the day (as seen by some of the recent bee supply shut downs). Beekeepers on average are an older crowd, which means their life expectancy isn't great. So the pool of available beekeepers is declining. Only a portion of those will be interested in TF. And if the TF crowd begins thinning the crowd by attacking their own members, the system isn't sustainable long term. So I can't say I'm surprised Dee's event got canceled. Its' still sad though.

Everyone has something to teach us. You just have to be able to listen and not criticize. Some teach us what to do or how to act. Others teach us what not to do or how not to act. It's up to you to decide what message the person is trying to teach. Dee has a wealth of information and experience, and I may not agree with all of it, but it would be a shame if it all becomes lost.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

> The number of individuals starting beekeeping is getting smaller by the day

I said that in post #2 of this thread but......the last two local bee meetings here were filled full with new wanna bee beginner beekeepers. Here the fad still has legs......and still super wealthy housewives getting chickens. I guess the agrarian fads last longer here in a totally non agrarian civilization. If the grocery store trucks stopped rolling for 2 days food rioting would break out. I think I am the only person in a neighborhood of 800 homes producing and selling food.....i.e. honey.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

odfrank said:


> > I guess the agrarian fads last longer here in a totally non agrarian civilization....


*Foodie Localism Loves Farming in Theory, But Not in Practice*
https://aeon.co/ideas/foodie-localism-loves-farming-in-theory-but-not-in-practice

Food producing is too dirty and too bloody and too heartless for the most (that is IF they bother to even try it for real).


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Litsinger said:


> Deb:
> 
> Just wanted to thank you for posting this video. Had the opportunity to watch and it was quite informative. I chuckled when Kim quipped that his wife reminds him every fall that he is a drone...


Welcome.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Specialkayme said:


> Everyone has something to teach us. You just have to be able to listen and not criticize.


SpecialK:

Just wanted to comment that I really appreciated your post and you made a lot of salient points in my humble opinion. I self-identify as one of the 'younger' people getting into beekeeping who are naive enough to try treatment-free but old enough to recognize that I might fall flat on my face.

I've gained a wealth of information and good, practical advice from beekeepers of all management persuasions so I agree that communicating with the intent of fostering learning and sharing of accumulated wisdom seems like a good approach in my book.

That said, I really appreciate all the many people here on Beesource who have been very generous with their time and expertise and patient with novitiate beekeepers like me who are bound and determined to learn the lessons the hard way. 

Thank you again for your post. I for one appreciated your candor and tenor.

Russ


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Litsinger said:


> Thank you again for your post. I for one appreciated your candor and tenor.


I'm glad you got something out of it.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

statement of the day "His mistake was to assume that his methods would work anywhere." I even see big differences 25 miles between 2 Apairys with somewhat the same bees. I think some succeed or fail due to the DCA. Reading some old books that describe the virgin queen flying low and fast for 1 mile or more then popping up to "begin looking" for a DCA. So the drones most of us assume are from our own Apairy would only apply if Apairy vicinity mating occurs. they get her returning home. Some DCA 1 to 2 mile away is a big part of your success, or failure. if you can cover a 9 square mile 3x3 area with known Drones then you can control. other wise no so much. be on the edge of a Tupilio Swamp and start with swarms then you my be golden, leveraging from 20 years of bond in the wild. In a city where 200 packages are shipped in each year, How could you ever repeat that even if you had a good year. Carry on use what works for your local area.

GG


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## pdarrah (Dec 17, 2010)

I have never met the Lusbys but I am familiar with them, their reputation, and their techniques. I just recently bought their book. I was hoping to go to the conference some day. Looks like that won't happen. I guess I'm a little disappointed that I missed that boat as I have had plenty of opportunity to do it.

The thread mentions Dee needing help or someone taking over the whole operation. This peeks my interest. I've had plenty of experience working Africanized bees in Texas and Belize and working commercially in general. I just might be the right guy.

Maybe one of you guys/gals out there who know Dee could introduce/connect me with her?

Thanks,
Paul


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

12th Annual Organic Beekeepers Mtg, Oracle AZ rescheduled for 3/27-3/29 2020.


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## pdarrah (Dec 17, 2010)

That works.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Paul:

If you haven't already, you can sign up for Dee's e-mail Yahoo group at: [email protected]


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

pdarrah said:


> I have never met the Lusbys but I am familiar with them, their reputation, and their techniques. I just recently bought their book. I was hoping to go to the conference some day. Looks like that won't happen. I guess I'm a little disappointed that I missed that boat as I have had plenty of opportunity to do it.
> 
> The thread mentions Dee needing help or someone taking over the whole operation. This peeks my interest. I've had plenty of experience working Africanized bees in Texas and Belize and working commercially in general. I just might be the right guy.
> 
> ...




We'd love for you to bring Africanized bees to Colorado.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>We'd love for you to bring Africanized bees to Colorado.

There are plenty of beekeepers in Denver getting bees from Texas. I think you're already getting them. Of course I don't recommend them...


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Respectfully, I've seen a few videos of the Lusby's apiary. Apply all the geographic spin and semantic obfuscation people want, no way do we need or want such uniformly aggressive bees in Colorado.

JMHO




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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

We many not need or want them, but its silly to suggest they are not here, they come in as imports, but like all the SHB that comes in, they just don't last in our environment. 

As far as I know there has only been one case of them overwintering, and that was a few zones warmer then denver 
https://www.denverpost.com/2014/05/13/africanized-bees-reach-colorado-turn-up-in-palisade-orchard/

all the more reason to focus on local stocks and get people off the package bee treadmill


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

It is my understanding that Africanized bees do not survive the winters in Colorado. So, I would suggest that no matter how many may be brought in, they die within the first winter, and thus we do not have an established, or even an over-wintered, population of these bees in Colorado. 

Regardless of how many are brought into the state, or how many may or may not survive our climate, I personally think it is irresponsible beekeeping to knowingly bring in such bees or to promote bringing in such bees. And it is even more irresponsible if it is done thinking Africanized bees are a magic bullet that will achieve the fantasy goal of treatment free bees. It’d be worse than bringing in nutria to control kudzu. 

To be clear, I am talking about a bee strain with genetics causing a higher than usual propensity to be very defensive as derived from hybridization with certain African strains. This as measured relative to the typical non-defensive nature of our standard bee strains such as Italian and Carniolan. Because mixing in African bee genes generally increases the chance of this overly defensive characteristic, the term "Africanized" is the popular nomenclature typical used to reference these bees.

JHMO. 





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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It is my understanding that Africanized bees do not survive the winters in Colorado.

Wishful thinking...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It is my understanding that Africanized bees do not survive the winters in Colorado.

Wishful thinking. I've had those vicious bees from Texas and they survived Nebraska winters just fine. A couple of weeks of -10 F and six months of winter didn't do them in...


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Some queens in Canada have African mitochondrial dna, indicating a queen line originating from the south. Doesn't mean the rest of the genome hasn't been strongly selected for northern traits. But some useful traits probably came with them.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

lharder said:


> Some queens in Canada have African mitochondrial dna, indicating a queen line originating from the south. Doesn't mean the rest of the genome hasn't been strongly selected for northern traits. But some useful traits probably came with them.


Right, but how would meanness be a northern or southern trait? Seems the whole African deal started when some "accidentally got away" from a research facility. What if the meanness trait makes it on some northern genomes? IMO the decision to "cold climate" adapt some African bees should have a lot of consideration before being done, the impact could last , well forever.... Do advise if you bring them north, I may buy stock in heavy bee suit manufactures, and the maker of duct tape. the days of the beekeeping YouTubes done in shorts will be over.. As a northern Boy, I had hoped the meanness would be watered down before they got here. Hop scotching over 2 or 3 state lines may bring it on a lot sooner. Would certainly weed out the Backyard Beeks and the newbies, could change to "leave this to the professionals" kind of thinking. the only constant, it seems is "change"

GG


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

No, I generally disapprove of people moving bees all over the place. But we would expect some African genes to end up here eventually through a much slower process of gene flow even in the absence of artificial bee movement. The ones that are useful anyway. I expect mean ones would get selected out along the way. We speed that up with bee movement. But a gentle African queen line would fly under the radar.


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## pdarrah (Dec 17, 2010)

Shinbone...they are here. You're not seeing the big picture. Think Texas.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I generally disapprove of people moving bees all over the place.

Agreed


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