# Drone Hives / Drone Yards - How Do You Handle Them?



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I am looking forward to getting into rearing queens next season, and am learning what I can in preparation. 

Assuming one is trying to breed for specific traits, and not using instrumental insemination, I've read that people try to flood a given area with drones from their stock in order to "tip the odds" in favor of the genetics they prefer. 

I have heard of people setting up "drone yards" far from their queen-rearing hives. I've heard that it has to be a mile or so away? Is this true?

I've read that queens will go a long way from their own hive to mate in order to avoid their own drones, and that is the reason given for the drone yards being maintained at a distance.

I wonder how those of you with experience in bee breeding handle your drone populations. Do you have specific methods that you can share? 

Thanks,

Adam


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I've heard the same as well. All good questions Adam.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The two issues for most seem to be:
1) to maintain diversity (avoid inbreeding)
2) to control the drone side of the genetics

My theory is you maintain diversity by breeding from many queen mothers. And I want the genetics of the drones to come from the feral bees.


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Okay Mike, so does that mean you don't do anything specific in the drone department? Or that you collect feral bees and use them as drone colonies? Or are you isolated enough to be confident that a lot of the drones your queens are mating with are feral?

Adam


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Okay Mike, so does that mean you don't do anything specific in the drone department?

Correct.

> Or that you collect feral bees and use them as drone colonies?

That too... not as drone colonies per se but as colonies. All colonies are drone colonies...

> Or are you isolated enough to be confident that a lot of the drones your queens are mating with are feral?

I'm only confident that I like the queens I get...  but I think most of the drones about are mine or feral...


----------



## oklabizznessman (Oct 24, 2011)

So, do you believe yo maintain your diversity because of new feral stock moving into your area?

If the feral stock is not wanting to breed with their drones then they must be breeding with_____??? I'm thinking after a couple of years there would not be so much diversity????

Very interesting!!! ohhhhhhh but wait you said you were providing different queen mothers?


----------



## radallo (Oct 28, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> The two issues for most seem to be:
> 1) to maintain diversity (avoid inbreeding)
> 2) to control the drone side of the genetics
> 
> My theory is you maintain diversity by breeding from many queen mothers. And I want the genetics of the drones to come from the feral bees.


What's your definition of "feral bees"?

To me, a feral population is a wild and established population. But unfortunately, look like most part of Europe is lacking of feral bees. From what I know, most of US is in the same situation.
Bees can survive because of (good) beekeepers nowadays, correctly managed and cared.
Most of the so called feral colonies are swarms, originated from (frequently badly) managed hives: they survive one/two season than they die, and the same nest is occupied by another swarm.
Moreover, even if feral bees would be out there... how can I avoid the contribution by drones from managed colonies in the neighborhood?

I agree about mantaining genetic diversity by using several mother lines, but on the drone side, I can't trust what is already out there.

Thanks


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What's your definition of "feral bees"?

I theory, based on the idea that Apis mellifera is not native, all of our "wild" bees are "feral". This is the distinction between "escaped domestic" bees and bees that were always wild. As far as them being a separate genetic group, that seems to be true from the research on the topic. 

D.A. Delaney, M.D. Meixner, N.M. Schiff, W.S. Sheppard "Genetic Characterization of Commercial Honey Bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Populations in the United States by Using Mitochondrial and Microsatellite Markers" 

http://aesa.oxfordjournals.org/content/102/4/666

Schiff, N. M., W. S. Sheppard, G. M. Loper, and H. Shimanuki. 1994. "Genetic diversity of feral honey-bee (Hymenoptera, Apidae) populations in the southern United-States." Ann. Entomol. Soc. Am. 87: 842Ð848.

http://aesa.oxfordjournals.org/content/87/6/842.abstract
http://beesource.com/point-of-view/africanized-honey-bees/southeastern-united-states-honey-bees/


----------



## radallo (Oct 28, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> >What's your definition of "feral bees"?
> 
> I theory, based on the idea that Apis mellifera is not native, all of our "wild" bees are "feral". This is the distinction between "escaped domestic" bees and bees that were always wild. As far as them being a separate genetic group, that seems to be true from the research on the topic.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the answer,

In my opinion , those paper do not state "feral" bees are a separated group. Delaney et al, published a time-scale study, on two commercial breeding population , with 10 years span: the evidenced both population lost some allele, but not significantly since they gained new ones (microsatellite are fast evolving markers).

Schiff et al, is dated 1994: the picture changes pretty quickly when dealing with managed and commercially exploited stocks; allozyme would not be the best tecnique nowadays, and, more important, if there is pretty of everything "out there" (some ligustica, mellifera, lamarkii, ..), how can I trust "feral" drone contribution while i am trying to improve my stocks through selection? 

You might get additional variability, but you basically don't know what you get... isn't it?


----------



## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

The smiley (but true and worthwhile) statement Mr. Bush made above, that he liked his queens, is a great statement of how it is now. Your comments point out that things change, and the consequence would be that when Bush begins to be less happy with his bees, he may not know what changed nor how to restore it. I can understand both positions. But the Bush apiaries are feeding drones into the area around him, so he may be in an adequately stable genetic position. If he were breeding all of his queens from one or two of his most productive queens, then he might be losing diversity fairly strongly. But I think I read him state that he doesn't do grafting much or at all. This would mean that a whole bunch of his queens rear daughter queens, and that he isn't shaving most of the genes from his pool.

Or so it seems to me.


----------



## BeeOne (Jun 4, 2015)

I found this article to be very informative from Larry Conner.
Drone saturation for small scale queen rearing. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...oS5YY1XZDfjfjKDsA&sig2=aSPw0ECfG-DYdSPnhQUuqw


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael, don't give us theory. Don't give us the feral rubbish. Answer the question from experience in sucessful queen breeding, that you don't have. Remember, you said you don't raise queens anymore be ause you spend all your time giving talks. Your worda, not mine. Getting tired of the same old worn out milarky that is ficticious dreaming. You, The Lazy Beekeeper, who never has time to look at his bees is telling folks how to breed quality stock. Oh please. Feral bees to supply drone mothers? You're spouting theory and not practice. Sorry, but I'm tired of the misleading information the sounds so good, but in practice is empty dogma supporting your lack of experience in running a real, sucessful, breeding program. You want to debate the subject? Then bring it on. Otherwise, what you have to say on the subject is hollow and empty. Sorry to say that and to offend you and your disciples, but as someone who actually does this kind of work and actually does do the work sucessfully, I can't sit by and not say something.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

radallo said:


> What's your definition of "feral bees"?
> I agree about mantaining genetic diversity by using several mother lines, but on the drone side, I can't trust what is already out there.
> 
> Thanks


Thank you sir.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

......


----------



## Gumpy (Mar 30, 2016)

Michael Palmer, is there anything special you do to aid in the genetics of your stock? As I understand it from your lectures I've seen online, you maintain various bee yards on both sides of Lake Champlain, and with the number of hives you operate, I assume you have quite a few yards. I believe I heard that you periodically buy queens from outside your area to increase genetic diversity. If I'm not mistaken, I think I read that queens will generally fly out 3 or 4 miles for mating, whereas drones will only fly out 1 to 2 miles, which helps alleviate inbreeding. So, do you do anything special in your various yards to ensure you have drones which might affect adjacent yards that have different genetics from the queens in those adjacent yards? Or do you simply rely on the bees to figure it out? 

I admire the work you do, based on what I've seen on YouTube, and your postings on BeeSource. I currently have no plans to try grafting for a few years, but I did make some nucs this year and let them make their own queens. I am quite pleased with the mated queens that resulted from that, and the experience I gained was well worth the effort.


----------



## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> but as someone who actually does this kind of work and actually does do the work sucessfully, I can't sit by and not say something.


Thank you sir.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Sorry, double-post.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Adam -

I run mine backwards compared to a lot of folks. I have the drones in the middle, a very short distance from a known DCA, so they don't take too long to go back to refuel and can quickly get back to business. Do feed the drone colonies a pollen substitute patty regularly! Do give the best drone colonies an extra drone comb. If you have 50+ colonies, kill the drone brood from the 10 worst colonies and re-queen them with better stock.

The virgin queen mating nuc's are in yards about 1/2 to 1 mile away in a circle around the DCA. This ensures more drone density, and should increase the likelihood of well-mated queens, when open mating.

Once you have a large apiary with many queens' genetics represented, now you may begin selection to aim for a good basic set of traits to start with. 


1. Buy the best you can get from the start!

2. Breed a LOT OF BEES!

3. Test for traits and score the colonies.

4. De-select the colonies with the undesirable traits => kill those drones & drone brood, and re-queen the colony with better, known stock.

5. Repeat steps 1 through 4 next time around, but add in new stock as well.

6. In 30 years or so, you should notice an improvement in the stock.

7. Read Dr. Harry H. Laidlaw, Jr.'s and Dr. Robert Page, Jr.'s book, Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding.

Good luck! Oh, number your colonies and try to make up a rather thorough colony trait expression sheet to go with each colony.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, don't give us theory. Don't give us the feral rubbish. Answer the question from experience in sucessful queen breeding, that you don't have. 

Hmmm... a self contradictory statement... There is no way to respond to one of those.

>Remember, you said you don't raise queens anymore be ause you spend all your time giving talks. Your worda, not mine.

I haven't had time to raise queens to sell in recent times. Not because of talks but because of a full time job, moving, fixing up two houses, family, horses and other issues. So I'd have to say that's not my words...

>Getting tired of the same old worn out milarky that is ficticious dreaming. You, The Lazy Beekeeper, who never has time to look at his bees is telling folks how to breed quality stock. Oh please. Feral bees to supply drone mothers? You're spouting theory and not practice. Sorry, but I'm tired of the misleading information the sounds so good, but in practice is empty dogma supporting your lack of experience in running a real, sucessful, breeding program.

I'm breeding my queens and I'm happy with them.

> You want to debate the subject? 

You've already made it clear that you discount everything I have to say, so what would we debate? That you raise good queens? I'm certain of that. That you raise a lot of queens and recently I have not had time to raise more than my own? I'm also certain of that. That you have a lot more time to spend on beekeeping right now than I do? I'm also certain of that. There is nothing here I want to debate. I'm just stating my opinion. And I certainly respect everyone's opinion. And I certainly respect your opinion.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Bush;1488375 >Remember said:


> Yes, they are your words. I've been following what you say to beekeepers. I consider much of it to be dangerous to them. Your Lazy Beekeeper dogma is exactly opposite to what I believe. I believe you say it to sell your books. If I have a bad attitude, then I'm sorry. But not apologetic.
> 
> When I first got high-ish speed internet, I went to YouTube. The first I watched was one of you. A beekeeper in the back of the room, thoroughly impressed that you had 200 colonies, wanted to know how much honey you made with 200 colonies. Your answer was that you hadn't started your extractor in a number of years. That you now raise bees and queens, and not honey. Fair enough. Then two summers ago, someone on this forum wanted to know where he could obtain treatment free queens. The board lit up...Michael Bush is your man. You replied that you no longer raise bees and queens as you spend all your time giving talks. Your words, not mine. I'm sure someone can find it if they search.
> 
> ...


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Michael Palmer said:


> I've been following what you say to beekeepers.


I'll probably get blasted for this, but it wasn't that long ago you were calling out Kirk Webster on this very public forum for his "mental illness" under the guise of friendship. I would personally never do that to a friend, or anyone at all actually. I found it very disrespectful.

Now you've got a bone to pick with Mr. Bush over something as trivial as a difference on how one chooses to raise queens. I don't think MB has ever gone on record to push his method of queen rearing or act like it's the best thing since sliced bread. He was letting people know what he does. As adults, we can all make our own decisions.

From what I've read, Mr. Palmer, you're probably one of the greatest queen breeders of all time, and it's obvious you're passionate about what you do, and it shows in your hard work. I'm just curious why you feel like you're the only beekeeper who should be taken seriously on the matter.


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Q. I have heard of people setting up "drone yards" far from their queen-rearing hives. I've heard that it has to be a mile or so away? Is this true?

A. In my experience, I'd have to say no. I set mine up in the same yard as my mating nucs, as I only have one yard. I've proven to myself over several years time that it works fantastically.

Q. I've read that queens will go a long way from their own hive to mate in order to avoid their own drones, and that is the reason given for the drone yards being maintained at a distance.

A. I say hogwash. That statement has a lot of unproven opinion or what might be able to be called theory. That is assuming bees have modern day western moral thinking abilities and I'll never believe that. I've proven to myself over and over again that drone mother colonies in the same yard as the mating nucs works out extremely well.

These items are what I call some of the things all the books get wrong. People inferring their own moral thinking processes to bees. All I can do is laugh at the proposition since I've proven it wrong myself.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

I have about 50 hives and my nuc yard all in the same area on 15 acres. I never have a problem with virgins getting mated. And 1 time in my life I got to see a mating going on in mid air. While I have read here about DCAs - I fine it hard to believe from 40 years of experience of raising several 100s queens a year. I works for me. While I don't make a living any more from only bees - I do get enough income from my operation as to where I don't have to pull $ from my pocket. 
Ray - I'm with ya on this issue


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Yes, they are your words. I've been following what you say to beekeepers. I consider much of it to be dangerous to them. Your Lazy Beekeeper dogma is exactly opposite to what I believe. I believe you say it to sell your books. If I have a bad attitude, then I'm sorry. But not apologetic. 

I get the impression you haven't actually read "Lazy Beekeeping". My negligence in beekeeping in recent years is due to the demands on my time not my thoughts on beekeeping and I do not recommend negligence. Beekeeping is work. "Lazy Beekeeping" is about priorities not negligence. 

>Then in July, 2015, in your post about believing being so crucial in accomplishing anything in life...Wright Brothers, etc., you said Seely's small cell study failed because he didn't believe in small cell. Well, I'm friends with Tom, and Tom doesn't do science like that. I found that insulting.

I like Tom and it was certainly not my intention to insult him or anyone else. How you were insulted by it, however is a mystery to me.

>Anyway, you mentioned that you didn't know how many colonies you lost in that winter because you hadn't looked at your bees since the spring.

I was not insinuating that is the best way to do things, I was merely being honest about my time constraints. If I was dishonest, I would have just made up some numbers.

>So, you don't make honey anymore, and you don't look at your bees in a timely fashion, and you don't raise bees and queens anymore, because you spend your time on the speaking circuit....

No. Because of other things. I managed to get my speaking moved into times that would not interfere with beekeeping so much. But "time" is still an issue. Working full time and going home at the end of the day too tired to do much and there are only 26 weekends a year during bee season.

>...and all the other things that you site. And believe me I do know what you are talking about. To do what I do, I spend 100% of my time in the bees. 

Yes. Time is always an issue and beekeeping is work and takes time.

>My wife says I'm married to them. I can't help myself, I'm obsessed. Anyway, you're telling the list how to run a breeding program? 

I've been raising my own queens for 42 years and raised them to sell for 10 years (not the last 10). I'm not telling anyone how to run a breeding program, I'm just saying what I do and what has worked well for me. I think I'm entitled to my opinion as I think you are entitled to yours.

>You don't need to have any control over the drone side of the equation because you, The Lazy Beekeeper, relies on all those feral bees out there to provide the needed drone mother colonies. That is, as I said, malarkey. Anyone who actually does have ample feral drone mother colonies surely does keep bees in a special place.

Anyone not doing II is only hoping they are providing the drones for their queens. I've had very good luck with the drones that are "out there."

>And in your presentation, Wintering Nucs, your focus, rather that being about the quality of the bees in the box, is about dumping granulated sugar on them and heating them up with terrarium heaters. Seriously? Terrarium heaters??

Actually it's not at all focused on dry sugar and terrarium heaters. I think those stand out to you because those are two things you don't like. The synopsis was this:

"Synopsis
"Keep in mind that all beekeeping is regional. Climate changes things. This is even more so with nucs. Adjust for your climate
"Keep them from starving
"Keep them dry
"Keep them from freezing
"Accept some losses
"Use standard equipment

I suggested several ways to do most of those things including feeding syrup, clustering the nucs etc. Terrarium heaters are only useful on a small scale, of course, but many people are trying to do this on a small scale. The terrarium heaters are actually pretty effective especially when it's -27 F out.

Certainly you need healthy bees. And I'd like them as strong as I can get them, but if you want them the strength of a full size hive, then it's not a nuc anymore...


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

As this thread progresses, I'm injecting this relevant part of the forum rules.*

Be civil.* Personal attacks are never okay. We will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. We can disagree and debate a subject, which is fine. No one on this forum is in a position where they can't be questioned or disagreed with in a civil manner. You'll find no "know-it-all's" here.


----------



## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

One Mike has a great place for some information the other Mike will show you how to keep bees. I will take what works for me from both. So who is a better beekeeper the one that will help you keep your bees alive.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

RayMarler said:


> Q. I have heard of people setting up "drone yards" far from their queen-rearing hives. I've heard that it has to be a mile or so away? Is this true?
> 
> A. In my experience, I'd have to say no. I set mine up in the same yard as my mating nucs, as I only have one yard. I've proven to myself over several years time that it works fantastically.
> 
> ...


Ray - I do not disagree at all. Lots of beekeepers here on the list say the same thing. I am fortunate to have a local, almost private DCA. It is supplemented by 2 commercial beeks' bee yards within a mile. I can sit there and watch drone comets from 12 feet away. I add my well-selected drone colonies to that DCA in the gulch, and place my mating nuc's closer to the road maybe 800 or 900 yards away. It's so much easier that way. 3 big drone colonies in the gulch, 40 to 180 nuc's just hidden from the trail head. There are so many drones! I love it.


----------



## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Wow. Just read and catching onto this thread. I'm going with the guy who requeens actively with strong stock surrounding his mating yard. It's an incredible breeding program and I'm modeling mine after his. Why not? It's solid, it's proven, it's laborious but at the end of the season the colonies are full of bees with no need to figure out where to put the dry sugar. Seriously, if someone needs feral stock, I unfortunately had a lot of swarms this year. You can grab them from trees nearby my mating yard. They may or may not have blue or white dots on them....


----------

