# Am I the only one who...



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

A few people have considered making frames around the combs but one issue is there's quite a bit of skill in getting the bee space right between the frame end bars and the body of the hive, it means the actual hive body has to be precision built and is getting away a bit from the idea of simplicity.

However if you're clever enough to do it, more power to you!


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

My cousin and I just build two KTBHs. We are going to give them a try. I like the idea of simplicity and how cheap they were to build. I think the only thing that wasnt scrap was the screws and the bolts we used for the legs. We put an observation window in both of them and even that was left over plexiglass from my ob hive. Really looking forward to throwing a swarm in them this spring. We are baiting them with lemon grass oil and queen juice. Hopefully a swarm moves in on their own.

-Dan


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Dan, What are you using for roofs on your hives? I used to live in Cincinnati, and I know how hot it can get down your way in the summer.

I went through similar design ideas last winter, when I was building tbh's. But since then, I've realized that the tbh is really all about how simple you can make it. If you get into the complexity of frames, then I feel like I would move to Langs, as then I could benefit from the available supplies and support.

I haven't had any comb collapse yet, and I have the hive in a roasting hot spot all summer. I think the key is the roof. I have peaked roofs, which are screen vented on both ends, and they have a nice overhang on the sides and an an extra long overhang on the entrance end. These roofs create a nice little "attic" space above the bars, and shade below. If it gets crazy hot, I pick up the end opposite the entrance and wedge a small piece of wood in there to increase the air flow over the bars. 

It's still simple, but I think it keeps the hive temperature from reaching the extremes that lead to comb collapse.

Adam


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## beez2010 (Dec 9, 2009)

I think Adam has the right idea. You should look for ways to cool things down in the hive(s). I don't run KTBHs, but I've seen where 3 holes are drilled in each top bar near the center, allowing for wooden dowel rods to be inserted and used to support the combs better. One right in the center going straight down several inches, and then one on each side of that one going out at 45 deg. angles for several inches. That seems like a good idea to me, but Like I said, I've never actually done it. Anyone ever used this method?

Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Another consideration is the comb guide.

What are you using for a comb guide and how did you prepare it before adding it to the hive.

From what I can tell, having a wooden guide that extends down at least a half inch is key to getting a really solid connection. Also, if you want to wax the guide, I advocate rubbing hard beeswax on it, rather than dipping them into melted wax.

I have found that the melted wax wants to crumble or peel off. Rubbed wax creates a thin skin that won't.

Michael Bush advocates no waxing at all.

Another issue could be the size of the comb. Some people run very large tbh's so that the comb is enormous, and so the weight is up there.

My bars are 18" long, and the interior heights are about 11". So the combs are something near 15" wide by 10" tall. Each weighs about 5.5 - 6 lbs full of honey. 

Adam


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Oldtimer, you're right, the frames for the KTBH have to be precision built to fit each hive you build. That's why I make up a jig on a piece of plywood so that I can assemble, glue and nail each frame together and they all turn out fairly exact. I look at it as a challenge to get everything working out right! John


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

My comb guide is a piece of chamfer moulding that is cut on 45 degree angles and I get them at a building supply/lumber store. I nail and glue them to the bottom of the top bars.

My roof has a peak on it, its made of plywood with cedar shingles attached to the outside of it. There is like an attic (air space) above the top bars a couple inches high in the middle, and air is able to flow above the top bars from one side of the hive to the other. Possibly I need some foam board insulation on the underside of the plywood roof to help with the heat causing occasional comb collapses. I think I will do that this year, it undoubtedly will be a benefit. John


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

Dennis Murrell has written about his experience with top bar hive comb reinforcements here:

http://beenatural.wordpress.com/top-bar-hives/design/top-bars/

Scroll down to "Reinforcements." 

I've not used them myself and I haven't really seen a need for it. However, I use 17" top bars in hives that are about 11-12" deep. I find this works well: the combs aren't terribly fragile, yet there's still enough space for the bees. I've worked with clients that have significantly larger/deeper combs and they are far more fragile.

Cheers,
Matt


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK well sounds like you've got the technicals sorted!

I don't see wire as particularly unnatural because wild hives build their combs in over and around all sorts of obstacles and don't seem to mind things poking through the comb.

Be interesting to see a pic of your hive.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Oldtimer, I have pictures of my hives and the framed honey bars I build, I just have to figure out how to post them, never posted pics on here before. Stayed tuned. John


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

I have a small stand of Cane pole Bamboo 
I take the thinner tops of it, drill holes in top bar
and make a Hoop type frame


Tommyt


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK well an easy way to post the pics is to take the time and open an account with http://photobucket.com/ . 

You resize your pics to 640 x 480 and upload them to photobucket. Once that's done hold your mouse on the pic in photobucket. A little drop down menu appears under the pic. Copy from the one that says IMG code and paste into your post at Beesource. Then preview your post & you should see your pic!


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Here's some pics of my TBH's, my honey frames that I build, and a capped frame of honey. Thanks Oldtimer for the tips on posting pictures. John


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Very Nice I like the little designs by the hive entrances!

Good looking honeycomb, and those frames look like they would easily be wired.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Those little wooden drawer knobs that you can see just under the peak of the roof (one in front and back) are small bolts to anchor the covers down and can easily be removed for inspections. John


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I did wonder about that.

You got any pics TommyT?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Oh yeah, I have screened bottoms on the TBH's, the screen is at the same level as the entrance, and below the entrance is a compartment the length of the hive and about 3" deep that I can slide a mite collection tray into. There is a little hinged door at the rear of the hive to access the tray. I figured I would explain it before someone asks! John


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Ask OT.... and tho shall Receive 










Tommyt


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Cheers 

Tommy I'm just wondering how that would work in practise, if the bees would stop at the bamboo or just build comb over and past it.

You'll have to update when the time comes. If it worked it would certainly be the kind of material available to the guys in Africa the Canadian workers origionally developed the TBH's for.


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## Bsweet (Apr 9, 2010)

I use Langs now but want to try TBHs, and will build them to take Lang deep frames so that I can have interchangable frames between traps and hives to make it easy to move bees/brood or honey as needed. I Belive M Bush has some information on his site. Jim


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Tommyt, I would also be interested in how your frames work. If the bees use them effectively and fill out the full available space of your hive, then I would say you've hit on a great, simplistic frame design.

Only time (and bees) will tell.

jmgi, great looking hives and frames - but a lot of work. Beautiful results, though.

Adam


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The bent twig method usually doesn't matter if they build past it. The point is to provide support. If there is comb on the other side does it matter?


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

It would make harvesting honey just a tad bit trickier if you are having to carve the comb off of that, but on the other hand if comb collapse is an issue than that would be an after thought.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Attachments in a top bar hive on the side and bottom are always minimal without a frame. I would expect no difference with a twig frame that is off beespace...


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Thanks to those who think its a fair Idea.
I have a 14 bar KTBH I call it my Nuc hive,The bars are just under
14 inch's.The inside dimensions are 12 across and 10" deep.
The bamboo frames,I made are for expansion, I have no
Idea what the bees will do as of yet. 
The 14 bar is full I was planning to split,but now think I just may transfer the whole thing too a 4ft KTBH and little by little add the bamboo 
bars 
I would like your thoughts on this? 
I believe I maybe derailing this original post with that last question, If anyone feels that 
I will make a New thread 

Thanks
Tommyt


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> The bent twig method usually doesn't matter if they build past it. The point is to provide support. If there is comb on the other side does it matter?


No it doesn't matter - if they build past it. If they do (and I would assume they would) then I would call it a successful design. I guess I would also wonder how consistently the bent twig frame would hang within the hive, as irregular spacing between the twigs could cause odd cross-combing.

I wonder if another, more consistent item, like a very thin dowel, or a wire might work even better because of a more even bend and thus more even spacing at the bottom edge.

Adam


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Adam 
I haven't gone further yet and did these in the minute of thought
I will make a jig with 3 to 8 pin dowels and put the bamboo in to set and dry 
this will allow for them to be more uniformed 
I have also taken the bamboo and cut 2 pieces put one in each hole and 
simply pinned the ends together like a "V", My reason to go with the U bend for now is I am working on making a extractor for KTBH. I may end up with \/ or \_/ 
If all goes well I will have a good model by fall 

Tommyt


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