# queen rearing for profit



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I would like some input on what level of queen rearing it takes for it to be profitable.

That depends on what your market is. It's hard to compete with a big breeder who is rearing thousands with a lot of cheap labor and mass production involved. At least on price. If you have something special that people want you can charge a bit more.

>Who is doing it, or who do you know that is doing it and what does it take?

I can't say I make much money at it, but I sell a few queens. I could make a lot more money if I spent the time doing my day job.

>How many queens do you need to raise, what are some of the difficulties in making it profitable, etc?

There are (or at least in the last few years there were) some people who actually sell queens as cheap as $6 or $7 a queen. How can you compete with that? That wouldn't even pay for the equipment I use.

>Do most breeders primarily raise queens or is it normally a side line to honey and pollination?

I don't think most honey and pollination people have time to rear queens.

>If you want to mate queens in a remote yard, how often are you out there working them?

Well, the mating yard just takes about four trips per batch of queens. One to set up the mating nucs. One to put the cells in the mating nucs. One to check on them to see that they are laying and one to gather them up. Once the mating nucs are set up, in the in between batches, you may be able to combine the "set up the mating nucs" and the "put the cells in" and the "gather them up" steps into one trip where you catch the old queen, check for eggs and brood and put in the new cell. I'm doing it all in my one yard and just keep two other yards to keep some other genetics to keep them from getting too inbred. I'm in the hives doing something most every day. Confining a queen, setting up a cell builder, transfering the larvae, setting up the nucs, transfering the cells, checking on queens to see if they are laying. Catching queens to ship. etc.

> I would have to drive about 45min. to get to a remote location. (area where there are few beekeepers)

That would be a lot of work.

>I'm about halfway through Dr. Laidlaws, contemporary queen rearing, so thats about all the experience I have with raising queens, other than making a few splits and letting the bees raise queens. So obviously I'm talking long term imagination here.

Try raising some. When you have way more queens than you want you can try selling them. It's a lot of fun anyway.







You can also use all the extras for swarm lure.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

$6 - $7 would really not be worth the effort. Not likely to get that low this year but could happen again in the future I suppose.

So I would have to drop the idea of a remote location and do it at home. At least there would be plenty of drones but less controll over genetics.

"Try raising some. When you have way more queens than you want you can try selling them. It's a lot of fun anyway. You can also use all the extras for swarm lure. "

Thats the most likely scenario, of course first I have to get more hives going that actually produce something significant.

Whats, your day job Michael, if you don't mind me asking? Is it 40hrs a week? You must stay busy. I don't really see me quiting my day job either as it is a fairly for sure paycheck. I would like a side business however that could allow for moving to a part time job at some point.


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

I don't think you have to raise many queens to be profitable. Whether you raise 100 queens, 1000 or more, one mating nuc can only raise x number of queens per year, and one cell building colony can only build x number of cells. (Exactly how many depends on your season and how you run your cell buiders, etc.) And for the most part the equipment cost is a one time thing (with some yearly replacement). I've personally found that time is probably the biggest expense. So as long as you charge a reasonable price you can actually pay for your equipment relatively quickly and start paying for your time. Of course running it as a second job where you don't have to cover medical insurance and other overheads certainly helps.

-Tim


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Good point that I haven't thought of tarheit. Also I enjoyed your website. You operation looks good.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>$6 - $7 would really not be worth the effort. 

That's what I think too. But if you have something harder to find and if people want some quality instead of quantity, you might make something at $20 per queen.

>So I would have to drop the idea of a remote location and do it at home. At least there would be plenty of drones but less controll over genetics.

Maybe. Are there a lot of beekeepers close by?

>Whats, your day job Michael, if you don't mind me asking?

Contractor (Computer programmer/analyst/database administrator).

> Is it 40hrs a week?

Sometimes.

> You must stay busy.

Too busy.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Lots of hobbiest beekeepers in my area. Possibly too many to have real big crops at my house. I hope thats not the case.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Lots of hobbiest beekeepers in my area.

Assuming they are within a couple of miles, give them all a queen of the genetics you want for your drones and you'll get your "Drone saturation" for "free".


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## King bee apiary (Feb 8, 2005)

Michael sounds like a military Job.

Also don't count your bees before they hatch.Point being "Bolling Bees".Sometimes pest,drought,etc can over whelm an operation.I thought after watching it done for awhile I could just jump in and have 100's of queens in a year,didn't take into account you've got to have a good supply of bees to raise those queens (6 hives? not enough).Now I am rethinking it,stepping back and planning a little more.Build up the numbers of hives,start with a good base and go from there,see what happens.
Like Michael said raise a few for my own use,if there are extras,so much the better.
Good luck


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

What are the requirements to be "inspected?" I presume to hold down the spread of AFB.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Here, since we eliminated our inspection program, I pay the inspector to come out. He looks for AHB, SHB, AFB, Varroa and Chaulkbrood, that I know of, and makes a report of what he found. So far in the last two years he's found no Varroa and two hives with a little chaulkbrood.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I would say that just because other people have bees around you, you might or might not have the advantage of the drone congragation areas. I learned this from another queen breeder on this site.

I am planning on rearing some queens this year. The hardest thing for me was to nail down a way to rear queens that work for me. I now have found the way I want to rear queens with little effort. I would even suggest that it is easier than the Ohio method. I work 60-70 hours a week so this schedule really does help out.

If you are interested, feel free to email me at [email protected]


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Interesting thread. I wouldn't even begin to try to compete with the bigger boys. Your market should at first be (relatively) local. There's a big shift these days toward locally raised bees and queens- as there should be. It just doesn't make sense to buy queens raised in Florida for introduction to a hive in Maine.

This past summer I paid as little as $10 per queen (they arrived dead after 3+ days on the road) to a high of $19 for one I bought from Michael (way to go Michael!). Some I bought locally and I drove to pick them up, which I much preferred. The average price was $15 and shipping varied. Michael's shipping was highest, but a) his queen arrived from Nebraska in just a hair over 24 hours and b) it arrived alive and feisty. I'd gladly do it again.

For hobbyist and small-scale beekeepers, low price is generally not the primary consideration. It's not for me. Price should NOT be the primary consideration in any case. Genetics and suitability for your location are most important.

I intend to raise my own queens this year and I expect to have some to sell as well. Since I couldn't find a convenient queen rearing seminar to attend, I arranged for one. At my urging, my local beekeeping association has agreed to put one one on and has gotten Tony Jadczak, Maine State Apiariest, to teach it next Spring. It will be a 2 day seminar with an evening classroom session followed by a field session at my apiary. We've got 20+ people signed up to take it at $10 a head. I'm psyched









George-


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

I'm interested Chef, email on the way.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Chef I sent you a PM. I would also be interested in how many hives are considered necessary to supply bees for queen rearing. I have built 10 2 frame mating nucs. Planning on using the Ohio method unless Chef convinces me otherwise. I am hoping to have a breeder queen and graft. I am thinking that I will probably have to restock the mating nucs every other batch or so. Is that about right?
Economics would seem to be unfavorable considering your labor but I am doing it for fun, though profit wouldn't hurt! I like MB's idea about giving your neighbors some queens! might even generate a market later...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I will probably have to restock the mating nucs every other batch or so. Is that about right?

Since I wait until each queen is laying the mating nucs become fairly self sufficient. The queen lays up all the brood they can handle and I pull the queen out and put in a cell that emerges two days later and two weeks later she starts laying and lays up all the brood they can handle. Until a queen doesn't make it back from mating. Then they may need some help.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

like a lot of things in agri-culture timing and detail are the primary driving force towards success...

within the commercial queen rearing operation volume (ie number of turns of the mating nuc) defines profitability. michael bush has defined one system for running mating nucs (which I also prefer but assures you of the minimum number of mating nuc turns).

my best guess is that each cell rearing hive requires 6 to 10 hives as support.

in texas there are certain paper work formalities for selling queens and nucs.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>my best guess is that each cell rearing hive requires 6 to 10 hives as support.

I agree.

>in texas there are certain paper work formalities for selling queens and nucs.

I have to get an inspection for most destinations, but Nebraska doesn't require any paperwork. I could raise them here and sell them here without an inspection. But, most states I can't ship to without an inspection certificate.

Every state has it's own rules.


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

It all depends on how long you leave queens in the nucs before pulling them. I leave them in until they ship or I use them (which it better than banking), and I really like to see a full frame of eggs or more. So for the most part the nucs are self sufficent, with the occasional one that needs restocked often because more than one queen in a row failed to mate, but I have those where the queen was laying for several weeks and quickly can become very full. If you don't rush it you can end up splitting nucs or using frames of brood in the cell builder.

I don't think it takes that many hives to support the cell builder. A standard deep frame has about 6450 cells, so it doesn't take too many frames of brood to keep it strong. Just adding 3 deep frames of brood a week is plenty and probably more brood that a productive queen in the hive would produce (at 1500-2000 eggs per day). So it may take as few as 3 hives to support the cell builder assuming they are also well fed and have good productive queens. 

Tabor writes that you need 200 young workers per queen cell to get good queens (or around 400 workers per cell when counting all ages.) So one full frame of brood hatching per week is more than adequate for feeding 30 cells at a time. So 3 mostly full frames should be enough for the queen cells and feeding any open brood.

Personally I end up working more in 5 day cycles of grafting and adding brood because of the time it takes to go cap the queen cells to maximize production and to always have queen or open brood for the young bees to feed. Their glans will tend to atrophy if not used. I also tend to raise far fewer queen cells than tabors numbers would indicate can be done in a strong hive of 40,000+ bees. 

-Tim


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I agree with Tim. I think if you are rearing on a small scale, it might only take 2 hives to support one cell building hive depending on your set up. In my opinion, Tim has a method that gives you complete control and flexability at all times in the process of creating a vell building hive.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

well not to be argumentative chef isaac, but do consider this process beyound the one step of cell starting. you must first start cell, then finish cells and finally have some place for the cells to go for mating. along the way you will need extra frames of pollen for the starters, and extra frames of soon to emerge brood for the starters and the finishers plus some more pollen frames, and when these two process are complete (if you are successful in rearing two racks of cells) a minimum of two frames per queen cell for mating. if you assume that the cell starter/finisher has 20 cells then this step alone will take a minimum of 40 full frames of bees and honey (I use 3 frames per standard nuc so my number would be 60 frames). you can stretch your resources by using baby nucs, but you loose some flexibility in terms of timing and these baby nuc units are much more fragile and therefore somewhat more difficult to maintain.

a number of people have gone to just raising queen cells (which are then sold to primarily commercial outfits) here and I suspect much of the rational for this move is the reduction in hive and human resources required.

just a thought...


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

Good point tecumseh. There seems to be two questions. How many hives to support a cell rearing hive and how many hives are needed for queen rearing. The first question is fairly easy to answer as one cell builder can realistically only raise a given number of cells. The second is very much dependent on the size of the nucs, how quicly the queens are removed, and how many queens you are trying to raise at once. 

Min-nucs may only need one cup of bees so very few hives are needed to populate them. But when using larger nucs as I do you may need quite a few hives. Typically in April when I make up the splits I use about 2 frames of bees and brood and a frame of honey, and I make about 3 from each parent hive. Then in a couple weeks time I can make a few more from each if needed. This works well in my location because the honey flow doesn't typically start until late May or June giving the hives plenty of time to build back up to strength and produce a normal honey crop. Those hives supporting the cell builders however have brood removed every week and often won't produce much of a crop.

I think big outfits buy queen cells for several reasons. Price, ease of installation (you don't have to pull the cage, check for acceptance), availability (I can raise far more cells than I can queens), and some use them for requeening.

-Tim


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

least one maximum sized batch of queen cells at a time to get your money's worth out of your time. In my experience if you don't have six strong hives you really don't have enough bees to set up a strong hive to hatch the larvae and feed them well(which for me is usually the hive with the breeder queen), a hive to set up as a cell starter/finisher (if you want to combine them but in a big production you may want to split this or have more than one), and several hives you can steal from to set up the mating nucs. My mating nucs are a frame of brood and a frame of honey in a two frame nuc. For a decent cell bar full of queens (about 30 or so) that's 30 frames of brood and 30 frames of honey, just to set up those mating nucs. With the ferals in April, no have has more than about five or six frames of brood. I will try to stimulate them earlier this year but I don't know how much I can fool them. So I have to wait until May when they are strong enough to have ten or more frames. That's still all the frames of brood from three hives to set up the mating nucs and that's if you use those hives up. If you want to keep them as a decent hive, you only want to take half of the brood, so thats six hives just for the mating nucs for just one frame of queen cells.

Let's recap. One hive for the breeder. One hive for the starter/finisher. Six hives for the mating nucs. That's eight hives.

I'm usually doing four cell starter/finishers at a time so I can do two frames of cells for each batch (not only more queens but insurance if a hot day or a stray queen cell wipes one of them out) and a batch every week (it takes two weeks to get them ready for the mating nucs). So now I need one hive for the breeder queen. Four hives for the starter/finisher and twenty four hives to break up for mating nucs. That's 29 hives. That's about what I have in my back yard. I don't get much honey this way. I may try Dr. Spivak's method to see if I can get some honey AND some queens.

As far as the minimum to get a few nice queens. I've put four queen cells in a two frame nuc packed full of bees and had them raise four very nice queen cells and then put three of those in other two frame nucs for mating. But I'm not looking to go through all the motions to only get four queens. I want sixty at a time. As long as the starter is overflowing with bees and has plenty of nectar and pollen they will make some nice queens, regardless of the size, but you still need a big strong hive (still overflowing with bees) to rear a lot of queen cells. You can't get a lot of good queens with 30 queen cells in a five frame nuc. You will get SOME. But not a lot.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I think it all depends on how many queens you want to rear. I think it if you take one strong two or three deep hive, feed them for a month, graft, take the queen and maybe two frames of bees, place them in a nuc and than place the grafts back in there and wait until they are capped over and than place them in a incubator, take the cell starter hive and make nucs of it and than place the queen cells back in there, than that would be good. One stop shop!!

For example, say you are rearing 20 queens (might not sound like a lot but it can be turned into a profit!!). You will need 20 nucs of some type. I am going to try two and three frame nucs but lets use the three frame nuc for example, Two frames of bees and one feeder frame. So you need 40 frames, two frames of bees per nuc. thats two colonies granting each colony is two deeps worth. 

Of course... this is my opinion.... heck.. I havent even grafted yet!! he he


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

Beekeepers can't agree on a yes/no answer.

I'm not considering entering this conversation. 
Especiailly when half the beeks have their own fuzzy math! 

Jeff


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You can raise as few as one and as many as 30 (or maybe more) in one cell builder/finisher. It takes the same number of trips to the beeyard for one as it does for 30. How many queens do you want for how much labor?


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

Just remember, when working in agriculture, your time is free! And never, ever, figure out what you are making per hour, as anything else would pay more.

Rather, think of it as a type of lifestyle. You'll be the last of the cowboys unfettered by modern choices, like what to purchase at Walmart with your surplus cash. Or how to spend your leisure time :>)))

Regards
Dennis
Having found just a day job after being a commercial honey and queen producer

[ January 07, 2006, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: B Wrangler ]


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

B wrangler:

I agree with you. Never try to figure out what you make per hour. it will always depress you!


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

actually b wrangler brings up a very good point in that the supply function (ie supply and demand/market equilibrum theory) is dependent on the producer 'knowing' his cost at various levels of production. when primary producers exclude any cost they are undermining their own decision making capabilities and their very existance. and yes this is a significant problem in agriculture.

I hope the day job goes well for you b wrangler (and I am dead serious about that).


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I agree with you wholeheartedly tecumseh. At some point everybody has to put some value on their time, especially when you consider that it is a finite amount. It might be depressing when you do figure it out but at least you know what you are worth as a beekeeper. In my experience this value increases over time. I just got faster at doing this or that job. Decisions are made faster on how to fix whatever problem I encounter.

At some point Chef you gotta figure what aspect of beekeeping are you good at and hopefully it is profitable. Avoid the ones that are not so profitable. It sounds from a previous post that you've figured out making your own equipment is not very profitable. I've also figured that out and I let another beekeeper make mine. I save my energy for pollination ( not my favorite, but pays many bills) and making making nucs (fun and profit). So unless you really enjoy the woodworking aspect I would avoid it.

Jean-Marc


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

At least you're not figuring out how much money you're loosing per an hour!


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Jean Marc:

Yes, I do agree with you. I have found making some things are not the best. I do like to learn though and since my dad is a wood worker, its nice to have another thing in common with him. I do think having some woodworking skills is critical. I do think I can make my own inner covers, outter covers and bottom boards. Maybe... maybe not. I am having fun putting supers and deeps together and painting them. It is fun!


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

As long as you are having fun it makes the money part not as important. It is good that you can spend time with your father doing something you both enjoy.

Jean-Marc


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

maximize your natural talents and minimize your failings (we all got plenty of that) is usually a pretty good receipt for success. place your focus into the passion of your life and 'enough' money will naturally follow. over time chief I have found that even some aspect of beekeeping that I never suspected I would enjoy are now quite fulfilling.


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

I know a guy who has a novel approach to the queen business. he maintains 3 or 4 distinct straight lines all through AI. He then sells F1 crosses for $2500 each. 

He says big outfits buy his queens to raise their queens with. Some of his customers are raising 10,000 queens themselves. 

He maintains and selects each line for productivity.But each line is a closed population - all genetically alike through AI. He sell queens that are F1 crosses between the lines (but I think will sell straight lines as well). When the F1 crosses mate with the buyers drones you are supposed to get the F2 hybrid vigor for that extra umph that makes for superior layers. That's his story anyway.

I figure he doesn't need a lot of customers @ $2500 a queen to make a living. I think he said he ran about 100 hives. He was definately not an 'organic' type. He said he had tried russians but without much luck - he was waiting for someone else to breed a russian into a good bee. His market was clearly the big operators.

[ January 09, 2006, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: wfarler ]


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I agree to maximize your talents however, IF you want to learn and grow (I do like the learning process), than it is good to dabble in things you are not sucessful at. 

FOR EXAMPLE: I am not good at rolling buritos. Seems like (no offense to anyone) that white guys just cant do it. I call over my hispanis prep cook and he does it. he says "si! Muey facile". 

Guess I will need to practice more!


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

yep chef in regards to many things, el ****** mucho tonto...

having spent a small amount of time in mexico, it is my belief that there is much we can learn from that culture.

and as to your comments about the learning process, they would fit me like a tailor made suit...


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Chef Isaac wrote: "I am planning on rearing some queens this year. The hardest thing for me was to nail down a way to rear queens that work for me. I now have found the way I want to rear queens with little effort. I would even suggest that it is easier than the Ohio method."

I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop, waiting for you to tell us what this method is. Or is this a patent-pending, proprietary method? 

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Speaking of patents, does anyone know the scope of the Purvis Brothers patent they are awaiting. I generally think patenting genitic material is flat wrong, you enabled it to come out a certain way, but its still a part of nature, i.e. you did not invent it, you bred it, or modified it. 

The scope I am wondering is for example, what if angus cows were patented when developed, holsteins, etc. Would you be able to breed and sell angus/holstein hybrids, or would any distinct trait of the patented cow be a violation, or how would it be enforced. Would the genitic material have to be %100 match to be in violation? 

I am holding out judgement on wether I think their patent claim is off base, in fact I ordered 3 queens for summer as I hear they are good. Waited to long to get some for spring.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Are we certain that the genetics are patented, or is it just the name. I feel confident that breeders could sell Sue Colby's work simply as 'carnolians' without getting sued. Heaven knows, a lot of crap passes for pedigree linguistica queens.


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

Personally, I think to truely breed queens the very best way is to AI them. All you have to do is look at nearly ALL the rest of agriculture and see that is what they have done. I well remember when my father used to tell me thta when he was a boy, 50 bushel corn was good.
When i came along as a boy, 100 bushel corn was good. Today, it is at least double that again. I know it is not all genetics, but I also know that without the genetics, all the furtilzer and management would not have do it alone. 

It takes good genetics, good managment, good weather, the whole 9 yards.
Bill


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

Just take dog breeding as a very easy one to understand. One breeders uses registered dogs to sell. (Breeder dogs if you will) A man comes along and really likes that kind of dog. Be buys one. Then lets it out and it gets bred to just any other dog that comes along. 
What do you get? It may not look even remotely like the mother. Same thing with bees. If you want to distroy a breed, that is THE best way to do it.
Bill


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

And then you end up with breeds that can't breed without human intervention.


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## Jerry J (Jan 12, 2004)

Bill Ruble, I agree, At the present time all of my hives are each a little different, Due to open matings in my opinion. Jerry


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I have a close friend who often says, "You know how you make a small fortune by ranching? Start with a large fortune."

I think the same concept applies if we replace "ranching" with "queen breeding" or maybe even "beekeeping."


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

I think there needs to be open matings. My problem is that when you open mate them, don't call them Italians or any other name because frankly, yo don't know. You just hope so.

There needs to be both and i prefer for my part to do the II so if I ever sell queens I can do it with full confidence that what I say they are, they are.


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

there needs to be as wide a gene pool as possible, that is why we need the open breeding also. along with the wild bees. If I did not think that, I would not have ordered any wild colonies this year as I did.

And I had my reasoning straightened out about poisoning wild colonies to keep down the Aricanized bee. i was wrong on that and can see it now.
Bill


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

"I have a close friend who often says, "You know how you make a small fortune by ranching? Start with a large fortune."

I think the same concept applies if we replace "ranching" with "queen breeding" or maybe even "beekeeping"

And I think if you only wanted to make money, you had better just not put it in farming at all. LOL but my heart is in the land and not so much in the money. Even though it is nice and I have to have it.


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