# capturing robbing bees



## kendal.l (Jun 28, 2013)

i had a perhaps crazy idea after reading a post on Honey Bee Suite of capturing the robbers that are plaguing my week hive and keeping them to build up ht hive they were robbing—enslave the attackers.

i took an old hive body with old comb with honey still in it and set it out. it took a few days to build up to a full robbing scenario, but it was covered yesterday. last night i added two empty shallows to the top. the bottom shallow has a large hole with a triangle bee escape covered witha screen. the bee escape leads to another empty shallow with the top coved with a screen.

my thoughts were that bees would enter through the hive entrance and walk to the top of the frames and get into the open space above in the bottom super. the light coming through the escape would lead them out through the escape into the upper screened super. 

after a few days in the trap i was planning to move the screened super to super my weak hive but keep the screen between the two groups for a few days, then let the captured bees leave through a top exit or just shake them out in front of the hive and let them go back in through the front door or fly away.

when i left for work this AM there were about 50 bees caught in the trap—less than i had hoped in 4 hours of robbing. i'm rethinking my design. maybe a top entrance through holes in the side into the screened empty supper then down to the honey in the hive body.and let the bees rob most of the day, then at mid day, put inward facing cone escapes and fill the box until the robing stops.

thoughts?


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

If there is a huge number of robbers in the hive, I simply close the hive up an move. Robbers and all.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

They remember the location of their old hive for up to a month. So if you introduce these robbers to a weak hive in the same yard, they will rob it.

Moving the hive MIGHT work but I don't know. On a few occasions I've had a hive being robbed and beyond saving, the whole hive being a mass of chaotic robbing. If the queen is still alive, I've put the whole thing robbers and all on the truck, and taken it to a new location. Then I've watched the activity to try to figure if the robbers will join the hive. There is a lot of confused activity and aimless looking bees and I know many of them are robbers, and it can stay looking like that for a day or two. Whether they join the hive or eventually fly off and die somewhere, I have not been able to work out.


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## kendal.l (Jun 28, 2013)

Interesting considerations. 

My thought in confining on top of my weak hive, but separated by a screen was that after a few day, they would be acclimated to the smell of the resident queen and more likely to stick around and less likely to be attacked. 

Theoretically, could one set up a hive to be robbed and then close it off and capture the bees as a package and confine them with a new queen (protected) for a number if days and create new colony? Maybe with the addition of a frame of brood?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

kendal.l said:


> Theoretically, could one set up a hive to be robbed and then close it off and capture the bees as a package and confine them with a new queen (protected) for a number if days and create new colony? Maybe with the addition of a frame of brood?


If you plan to catch robbers, you are going to get field bees. They are the ones doing the robbing. If you plan to introduce a frame of brood, you will need to leave the nurse bees and housekeepers on the frame and move them too. You don't have a very good mix of bees for a new start. To make a good start as a package, you should have 6000 to 9000 bees minimum, Two to three pounds.

Not a good way to start a new hive.

cchoganjr


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Kendal.l there are a few threads on beesource where people have tried this. It has always ended in tears.

If doing it in the same yard it is certain to fail. If moving the robbers somewhere else there MIGHT be a small chance, but it is still not going to give great results for the reasons given by Cleo Hogan.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

The robbers have oriented to their own hive, that orientation lasts for life. If you keep them in your yard where the robbing is going on, they will just continue to rob that weak hive and take it back to their own original home. Confining them in with a different queen and brood will not change it. Your only hope is to move them five or more miles away, and hope you are not moving them in the same direction that the robbers home hive is located.


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

I have the same situation.
My colony collapsed and they tried to make a new queen a few times. I had "Chilled Brood", and all the bees died off and the brood died as well. When I inspect my hive with no feed I only see 1 or 2 bees.

So now when I feed the hive I see this
http://imageshack.us/a/img59/8666/1tzq.jpg
On the outside, and inside I see
http://imageshack.us/a/img825/905/snx6.jpg
I already ordered a new queen and she arrives next week.
I can catch the bees and put them into a nuc box, but it sounds like they will return to their original hive.
My only other alternative is to catch bees that are over 5 miles away and use that to start a new hive.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

disc999golfer999 said:


> My only other alternative is to catch bees that are over 5 miles away and use that to start a new hive.


The other alternative is to take some brood and bees from another hive to make a little nuc & introduce the queen to that, which has an excellent chance of success, the use robber bees method has almost zero chance for success.

Couple of things, you should not set up the new hive where this one is, robbers already are ready to overwhelm any new hive at that location. The other thing is going by the pic anyway, that hive was set up to be robbed. Does not look like there would have been near enough bees to defend that feeder, combined with being queenless, the situation would have been impossible for them. If a hive like that needs feeding, comb honey is best but if not available, go in the evening, take out a comb and pour some syrup directly into it. Do not spill any, and restrict the entrance down to one bee. They will have the night robber free to organise the syrup you have given them so they will be at less risk of robbing the next day.


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

Someone told me that I can catch the feral bees and then close them up in their new hive for 2 days and they will just stay there and not go back to their original location.

Aybody had any success doing that?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

kendal.l said:


> i had a perhaps crazy idea after reading a post on Honey Bee Suite of capturing the robbers that are plaguing my week hive and keeping them to build up ht hive they were robbing—enslave the attackers....... thoughts?


I agree with you...........crazy idea!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

snl said:


> crazy idea!


I second crazy idea.

How many bees do you think you could enslave from the robbing bees. I suspect not very many, in terms of what it takes to augment a colony. To do any real good it will take a few thousand bees. Not a few dozen or a few hundred. Additionally, if you are going to augment a weak colony, robbing, working, field bees is not what you want. These bees are about ready to die anyway. You want young bees to augment a weak colony. Bees capable of tending brood, drawing wax, fanning, cleaning the combs and cells. Not the job that robbing bees will do.

My advice, if you want to save this colony, and if it can still be saved, is..... Move it 3-5 miles, hopefully where there are few wild colonies, augment the hive with a frame or two of brood, one chocolate colored that will emerge quickly, and a lighter colored frame that will emerge in another week or two, perhaps a frame of just bees with some stored honey. (In essence you have made a split, utilizing the queen, and the few bees remaining, from the weak colony.) Feed with sugar syrup, only give them the amount of comb they can protect, and, monitor closely, because SHBs love sugar syrup and weak hives.

cchoganjr


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## kendal.l (Jun 28, 2013)

an update on the experiment. note: i'm not trying to save a hive being robbed, but to build the population of a small hive and to jumpstart the population of a split. it's for fun and learning more than anything.

about 2,000-3,000 captured field bees were held for two days in the new hive with a queen and brood frame of brood and nurse bees. this morning i took out the dividing screen but closed the entrance and will hold them for another day (the article i read said it takes about 72 hours to turn allegiances of the average honeybee to a new queen/hive—we'll see how accurate that is). i have a screen on top of the hive so i can observe without letting out any bees. the bees were calm. no fighting was seen, just an occasional buzzing from a single bee for a few seconds. tomorrow i will open the entrance and see if the captured field bees fly away and don't return by checking the population tomorrow evening.

i should mention that the origin of the field bees is mixed likely from several hives including some of the local black feral bees. there was a lot of fighting at the robing point (the hive was empty with no resident bees—the hive they were robing is not the hive i placed them in.). the first day after capture there was constant buzzing and flying in the empty screened box, but this settled after a day on top of the new hive with a queen/brood. after a day they were just hanging out on the sides of the box and formed cluster at night directly over the brood cluster on the other side of the screen. 

we are trying a second hive with a few variables. it will have a brood frame and a new queen as well, but we will hold the captured field bees captive inside the new hive for a full week before releasing them into the general population. this hive is also about a half mile from the capture point.

i'll post the results.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Please update even if it does not work out how you hoped, so that future people can learn.

Also there was an article telling you to do this? Is it on the net is there a link?


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## kendal.l (Jun 28, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Please update even if it does not work out how you hoped, so that future people can learn.
> 
> Also there was an article telling you to do this? Is it on the net is there a link?


will do—that's what the forums are for right? leaning and sharing.

http://www.honeybeesuite.com/captives-who-change-allegiance/

this along with Michael Bush's site might be my favorite bee related blogs.

if anyone has more scholarly articles about drift (forced or natural), please post them if you would.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK I read the article, sorry but in my opinion it is incorrect.

Also, I note he has not actually done it himself, but cites what he says he has heard from other beekeepers. Doesn't say how he heard. Internet, personally, a chat site, who knows? Most of the beekeeping myths come around in this way, it's something somebody knows because they heard it from someone. It's often something that "sounds logical", or "makes sense". But we don't know who the original beekeeper was, their experience level, or what really happened that made them think what they did worked. Or even if the particular myth is some low probability idea that works 1 time in 50, and the person who tried it did it once, got lucky, and is now telling everybody it works.

The hive you are going to move might work but it's a very outside chance. The hive you are not going to move, if you do it the way you say, will not work. But go ahead though, nothing like finding these things out yourself it's the best way to learn.


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## kendal.l (Jun 28, 2013)

Update on hive 1 (10 feet from the hive being robbed where the field bees were captured)

Before the addition of trapped bees there was little activity 2-3 bees a minute. Mind you it was only a queen an a frame of brood/nurse bees. The field bees were held captive for roughly 3 days--half in the trap, and half on the new hive. Yesterday I removed the screen which allowed the populations to mix and shut off the exit. The plan was to open it this am, but the bees pushed it open somehow yesterday while I was at work. 

Today I'm observing about 50 bees a minute coming and going. The bees are various colors and sizes including all black feral bees. I've watched several black bees exit turn and fly back and fourth for several seconds then a few orientation circles and then fly away. I've seen other black bees come out dance about the go back in. I had no black bees to my knowledge before. No robbing apears to be going on short of the occasional bee that tries to get in but is mauled and cased off. 

Based on the black bees and the 10 fold activity, I think it worked but we are trying a more controlled trial. 

We set up another hive at a different location a few blocks away with a brand new box, caged queen and two brood frames. we put a super with honey and 3lbs of trapped field bees of mixed origins/hives. The super is screened on both sides so the two population can't mix. In a week we will let out the field bees an see if they stay. If we end up with a bustling hive of foraging bees, I think it will be proof that the field bees adopted the new hive. 

I'll report back next week.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The first hive is probably toast, did it have much honey? 

The second hive with the 3 lb's robber bees, how far away is it set up from where the robber bees were collected?


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## kendal.l (Jun 28, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> The first hive is probably toast, did it have much honey?
> 
> The second hive with the 3 lb's robber bees, how far away is it set up from where the robber bees were collected?


the first hive had almost no honey in it. it was very weak after a queen failed. it contained a single frame of brood from another hive, an new queen and about a quarter frame of bees left from the previous failing colony. 

perhaps you did not read what i wrote. the first hive is doing great. the robber bees are going out and foraging and then returning—even bringing pollen in. there is no robbing, no comb is being destroyed or cleaned out, no fighting save the occasional stray bee which is not let in (i saw 3 in as many hours of observing the hive today). there is 10 times the activity and the bees coming and going and include colors of bees not present before the addition of the robbers—i have a picture of a solid black ferral bee passing a standard striped one at the entrance, but it won't attach. 

all signs say the robbers were assimilated. truthfully i cannot say how many did not stay and flew home, but it is obvious that there are easily a few thousand more bees foraging for this hive and spending the night in the hive that were not there before the addition. they have had a day-and-a-half to leave, but they have not. most surprisingly as i watch their flight paths, they are not going to empty hive to rob where they were caught (still with a few frames honey and only a 10 feet away) but rather are crossing the yard to forage for nectar and pollen in the Boston Ivy which is in full bloom after a recent rain. not only are they not robbing out the new hive i put them in, but are not robbing out the hive where they were caught. apparently they have been rehabilitated from their robbing ways. LOL

we know that a hive can change loyalties to a new queen when a new queen is added to a hive, it just takes a couple of days in a shared space. why is it so hard to believe that the same behavior can happen by adding the workers to the queen? we also know that bees will return to their hive if it is moved by confining them or getting them to reorient when they leave for the first time. all we have to do is tap this ability to reorient and accept a new queen. we also know that colonies can be combined if the worker bees are kept together in the same air but physically separated so they can't fight until they take on the same smell.

it's not the easiest way to create a larger colony but, it's working.

the second hive is about 1/2-3/4 mile away.

i'll keep posting updates.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

kendal.l said:


> perhaps you did not read what i wrote..


OK well if you say so, I'll have to believe it. Just, I've done a bit of reorienting bees in my day & your logic in paragraph 4 does not square with my own experience. But if you are sure it's happening, I'll have to believe you. 99%. 

Couple little discrepancies though, you collected more than 3 lb's of robber bees, which is a heckuva lot of robbers to be in a hive, massive robbing obviously. When things are that bad I'd expect an empty hives honey to be cleaned out pretty quick. But you say that after all this time the empty hive still has honey in it. You sure that 3 lbs of bees were robbers? Cos having that many robbers and the hive not getting cleaned out is another thing I've never seen before, either.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I had a problem with a mini nuc I was trying to start a queen in. trapping robbers sounds like a good idea just to end the robbing.


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## kendal.l (Jun 28, 2013)

3lbs is just a guess based on what the cluster looks like compared to a 2lb package. A screened deep full of flying and crawling bees is not the easiest thing to guesstimate. It took two days to catch that many. 

I started with 12 frames of unwanted honey. it's almost gone now after a week. We have had a lot of rain this week, so the robbers have not worked full days. But still, it has been disappearing fast. 

The grafted hive still looks good. 

If I have not mentioned before, I'm not recommending this procedure. This is an academic endeavor. One could easily ruin a hive if things were to go wrong. Just because its possible does not been it is the best solution. A frame of brood and nurse bees is a lot easier.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

kendal.l said:


> I'm not recommending this procedure.


Well others are clearly thinking of trying, and as you say it has been so successful for you, no doubt they will go ahead. 

Be interesting to see how it works out for them.


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## kendal.l (Jun 28, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> I had a problem with a mini nuc I was trying to start a queen in. trapping robbers sounds like a good idea just to end the robbing.


trapping robbers won't stop the robbing. they will keep coming. if it is just a mini nuc, shut down the entrance and move it. better to figure out why there is robing and fix the problem. robing is like a sinking boat—you have to find the leak and plug it up. catching the robbers is just like bailing with a teacup and there is a whole ocean out there. 

if you catch a hive being robbed. you can shut it down with the robbers inside, wait three plus days and see, but from others experience, this does not always work. if you are curious like i was and the hive is expendable, give it a try. if not i would shut down the hive, stop the robbing and play it safe.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

I would just like someone to mention that "setting" up the/a robbing situation to try and trap bees to add to your weak hives wouldn't be the best recommendation etc.. You didn't mention if the robbers were coming from your hives or your neighbors. But actively targeting and providing "free" syrup to the area is not right. Hopefully, your trapping your own robbers vs. others.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Brandy... Exactly correct... At any rate, why would you waste honey, sugar syrup, cantaloupes, etc., to attract and promote robbing, only to attract field bees. These bees have only a very few days of life left. By the time they become robbers they are very near the end of their life cycle. 

If these robbers are your bees, you are taking away foragers that should be working to make honey in your hives. If these robbers are your neighbors bees, then you are trapping his bees for a very dubious result.

To feed them, to attract more robbers, to trap them, then add to an existing colony, with only a few days of life left, just doesn't make any sense.

cchoganjr


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have tried it. I don't think it's worth the effort. It works, somewhat, if you can confine them three days without killing them from heat. Somewhat is because they often have already killed the queen, or if confined may kill her while you are waiting for them to reorient. You end up with some of the robbers staying but, as mentioned, they tend to be older bees anyway and even if you're not queenless the hive was already weak, then decimated by the robbers and now joined by a bunch of old robber bees. It sounds better than it is... and more likely they are also queenless...


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## kendal.l (Jun 28, 2013)

Good points Michael. in the case of a "trap in" during a robbing event the queen is at risk or already gone. this is not what i have done. i'm doing an experiment to prove or disprove a concept that such things can be done, but not willing to recklessly sacrifice a good queen.

my experiment was not trapping in robbers in the hive they were robbing, but rather collect them separately and graft them into another colony. what i did was start/jump start a weak colony that was no more than a new queen and single frame of young bees. my set up was with the new queen and a brood frame (effectively a small split) in the bottom box with a screen divider that keeps the robber population confined on top in a separate box while the robbers reoriented for three days—the populations can touch/communicate through a screen, just not physically mix. the hive is well ventalated with a bottom screen and the robbers have a feeder. after three days, i removed the screen and closed off the entrance to let the populations mix, but not let the robbers exit quickly. then open up at dusk. the net result is a full hive of bees in various stages of life from many sources successfully grafted together, queen intact—an artificially matured split.

it was a crazy idea. fun to do and by all signs, successful in jumpstarting the hive to a more mature colony than it would have been otherwise in just a few days. could it have been done easier with brood frames and nurse bees, sure, but this was an academic endeavor, for fun and learning. i had read too many people disagree about whether or not it was possible with such zeal it was too tempting to not do it. i admit i am disappointed and the negative responses and discouragement i received here even innuendoes that i'm lying about the successful result. it would have been easier not to share the experience by posting, but i thought there would be others out there with the same fascination and curiosity an i have.

practical applications if what i learned are small and arguably unneeded. but i am an urban hobby keeper and do this for entertainment, not money. perhaps what i learned will come in handy some day, perhaps not. i don't care. if this makes no sense to you, you have missed the point. move on, there is obviously nothing for you to see here.

As for the wasting honey, it was a rotting old hive given to me by a neighbor that was all bound up with cross comb and full of dead bees smashed in the comb. i moved the bees to a new clean hive and did not want to deal with the dirty honey—i have plenty of clean stuff for myself and don't need more work. rather than throwing it out i figured i would donate it to all the ladies willing to clean it up. i had plenty of willing volunteers show up to clean the honey and pack it away in clean comb across the neighborhood. instead of wasting the honey by sending it to the land fill, i upcycled 110 lbs of it to my neighbors and the local ferral hives (consider it an apology and compensation for capturing some of your field bees). the "donation" of honey and watching the bees rob out this beeless hive as well as pester my weak colony is where the "crazy idea" was spawned. 

we have two other experimental grafts ready to open up in the next few days (one is a fresh started colony the day of field bee the graft). these are to see the first trial was just a fluke. i'm expecting them to be just as successful based on the behavior changes we are observing in the graft, but i'm getting that this is the wrong audience to share the experience with. my apologies for bringing it up.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Looks like you may have learned something. That's good.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

kendal.l said:


> if this makes no sense to you, you have missed the point. move on, there is obviously nothing for you to see here.
> 
> Thank You. I assume that remark was directed at me, so, I will just move on.
> 
> ...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I think it would be me he was talking about.

I've been disbelieved, and accused of many things, since I've been on the net. It's a thing one has to harden up about, can't take it personally.

Rather than accuse you of lying, I merely questioned you about something you said that was impossible, being you had 3 lb's of robbers in empty honey boxes, then quite a bit later there was still honey in there. The reason for questioning was not to make you a liar, but to see if what you are observing or your interpretation of it is what actually happened.

Thing is, the premise you base this on, being old field bees re orientate in 3 days, isn't right. They will if the original hive has gone. If it is still there they will return to it.

When I was new in bees, I tried pretty much the same experiments as you, even made a special screen for it in the school woodwork shop. Only result I ever got was the bees when released returned to the original hive, and then, if the other hive was weak and had a decent amount of honey they would return to try to rob it. Usually successfully because they were now accepted by the other bees and could walk right in. Over the 40 years since then I've learned a little more about robbing behaviour, the ins and outs of bee orientation, and other things, that don't stack with your results.

So, I'm not accusing you of lying. If you got these results & have bees collecting pollen etc, I totally believe you. Just, sometimes what we observe did not always come about in the way we think it did. However for you it might have, I wasn't there so cannot say.

A chat site is about discussing things, and discussing things is about differing opinions. No point getting sore about it, just accept that's what happens.

I would still be interested to see what happens if someone else tries it.

And, there are older threads where it's been tried.


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## kendal.l (Jun 28, 2013)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Thank You. I assume that remark was directed at me, so, I will just move on.
> 
> So much for trying to help someone. I thought that was what this forum was for. My apologies.
> 
> cchoganjr


i was not asking for help. i do however appreciate your willingness to offer it. 

my statement was not directed to you, but rather meant as a blanket statement to all who were not seeing the point and to move on rather than question the purpose as foolish. sorry how it came out. it does look like i was snubbing you—not my intent. please accept my apologies.

my purpose in posting was for those like me who wonder about how everything works. for those who open up their hive for no reason other than just see what's going on inside. if you are looking for a reason beyond curiosity and wonder, you won't find it. i did it because i could. i admit i have muddied the water by suggesting practical application.

again, i think this was the wrong place to come with this discussion.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Double post


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I have found this info interesting due to a recent event I had. I set up mini mating nucs and any of them that where a bit weak had robbers in short order. my answer was to provide an empty mating nuc with sugar water on it. as long as that water was available the robbers stayed after it and stayed away from my queen rearing nucs. I did not think to trap them in it until I saw this thread.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

My comments were based on if I was your neighbor and found out that your were supplying free syrup, free frames of stores etc... (Who knows what else is in those frames).. and were then trapping my foragers.. Even using lang. hives to condition them additionally to test out further hives. For all the trouble your going to to learn something as you say, why not spend the time on building up your hives with your own resources vs. your neighbors. 

If mini nucs are being robbed add some robbing screens, reduce the entrances, add some resources.. Lots of learning situations vs. these actions..and now we're sharing these ideas... great


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>it was a crazy idea. fun to do

I thought it was worth seeing what would happen too. I understand why you would try it.


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## kendal.l (Jun 28, 2013)

trial 2 _(same yard, seasoned boxes, new queen, one frame of brood and nurse bees, no honey stores. held 3 days before release.)_ 

trial 3 _(half mile, new boxes, new queen, two brood frames and honey stores all put together with the robber bees on the same day. held 4 days before release.)_ 

if anyone was wondering, both took, no robbing or mass killing as some sources suggested. proof enough for me that field/robber bees can be grafted into another hive through forced confinement even if the bees are not moved 5 miles. exactly what percentage stayed i can't say, but it is obvious that there are many times more bees than were put in with the brood frames. 

my last word/disclaimer is that there is very little practical application for this as i have done it which was to test a disputed concept the possibility of robber bee reorientation through forced confinement. please don't try to do this to build a hive—there are easier more proven ways to do that. however, should you find a hive being overrun with robbing and if what i experienced was not a 3 time fluke, rather than abandoning the hive to total loss, you might try closing up the hive completely with the robbers inside (with proper ventilation) and wait 3-4 days for them to settle and the robbing to stop then reopen the hive. if the queen lives, the robbers might reorient as they did in our trials and leave you with an intact hive that hopefully is stronger than before the robbing and not weaker.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If anyone tries it please also report.


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