# Has my hive just swarmed or what?



## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"Within 5 minutes however 95% of them had landed" - did they only land at the entrance?
The pics did not come through.
It is swarming season. I personally would not add two supers at the same time. If they swarmed you will notice that a lot of honey and bees have gone - generally about 1/2 the population goes.


----------



## Dermottj (Oct 12, 2011)

Sorry bout the pics, they are Jpegs maybe not compatable with your PC? They all seemed to cover the front of the hive including the entrance, some on the ground in front of the hive as well, guess ill find out tomorrow how many are there, hopefully most of them!

Can I ask why you wouldn't add 2 supers? On a previous thread I was told it was a good idea to put 2 supers on to assist with air flow, helping the honey ripen quicker. I'm new at it, and happy to have your opinion on what's best, it's all a learning experience to me. Do you have any theories on why they would swarm given what I've said in the intro?


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Just throwing supers on top will not prevent swarming. You must keep the brood nest open. 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm


----------



## Dermottj (Oct 12, 2011)

So have i been misinformed about leaving the brood box alone once a nectar flow has started? I don't mind being told if I've done something wrong or neglected to do something, what does everyone do once a nectar flow starts, how often do you check your brood box?


----------



## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

When I put a supper on I generally take a few frames of brood and move them above the queen excluder ( which I use) Make sure the queen is left behind ( below the excluder) .
This has two positives: the bees are very willing to move up as they are attending to the brood and it will create space in the brood box. I'm not aware of any negatives.
I wish I knew why bees swarm!
Lack of space is one but some are difficult to stop whatever you do.
About putting on two boxes at the ame time. If the hive is not extremly strong you may find that wax moth is not kept out ( and in our case SHB - I don't think you have them at this stage)
Most of my hives are only a brood super and a honey super. In my climate I don't need to keep big stores as there is something to eat for the bees most of the time. And I find it easier to manage - getting older!


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i'm a novice too, but i think swarming occurs mostly during strong nectar flows in the spring. as you are approaching your summer solstice there, it's probably prime time for swarms. three weeks is more than enough time for the bees to create a new queen. the excluder may have contributed to the brood chamber getting 'crowded'. your inspection will tell the story. if they all returned, maybe it was just an attempted swarm. do you have more equipment that you could split the colony into?


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't know if your hive has swarmed or not. But new bee keepers often think that their hive is swarming when it is actually having an orientation flight - Lots of new bees coming out to fly around and get their bearings before going to work out in the world. Orientations can happen any (or every) day during the season - usually in the afternoon during good weather. If you watch closely you will see that orienting bees fly around the hive in ever widening circles before flying off - and all the excitement will be over in 15 minutes or so. It can put a lot of bees in the air.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good point david. dermottj, is it possible that your queen ended up above the excluder?


----------



## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

You can open up the brood nest and look for queen cells. If you find several queen cells it will help you determine if the hive swarmed or maybe getting ready to swarm. I have added two supers of drawn comb many times and have not had any problems. But, if you are just adding supers of foundation it could cause some problems. A lot of times with foundation they will only draw out the middle part of the frames and move straight up. With foundation just add one box at a time.


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I like to do hive inspections every two weeks. The first thing I look for is swarm cells. They can be easy to miss so go slow and look at the bottoms of each frame. You can also tip the box forward and look under if you're in a hurry. I use just a light portion of smoke to clear the bees away. They like to crowd around queen cells and that's why I have missed some in the past. I then check the brood nest to make sure there is plenty of laying room for the queen. The link I posted earlier gives a good pattern of how the brood nest should be. It should be said that you can't stop swarming completely but this helps a great deal.


----------



## Dermottj (Oct 12, 2011)

Thanks for the last few posts, appreciate the advice given to date! I'm going to check today and will report back with my findings! If they havent swarmed, am I wise to move a couple of frames of brood above the excluder?

I'm certain the queen isn't above the excluder at this stage,

Thanks


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I don't use an excluder but you could. Anything to keep the brood nest open like Mr. Bush explaines as follows:

I_n other words, you can do something like: BBEBBEBBEB where B is brood comb and E is an empty frame. How many you insert depends on how strong the cluster is. They have to fill all those gaps with bees. The gaps fill with the unemployed nurse bees who begin festooning and building comb. The queen will find the new comb and about the time they get about ¼" deep, the queen will lay in them. You have now "opened up the brood nest". In one step you have occupied the bees that were preparing to swarm with wax production followed by nursing, you've expanded the brood nest, and you've given the queen a place to lay. If you don't have room to put the empty combs in, then add another brood box and move some brood combs up to that box to make the room to add some to the brood nest. In other words, then the top box would probably be something like EEEBBBEEEE and the bottom one BBEBBEBBEB. _


----------



## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"In other words, you can do something like: BBEBBEBBEB where B is brood comb and E " - and if they are so strong as to filling all the frames you give them, you may like to do a split!


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

max2 said:


> "In other words, you can do something like: BBEBBEBBEB where B is brood comb and E " - and if they are so strong as to filling all the frames you give them, you may like to do a split!


Exactly, and here's the best way IMO to do splits!

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm


----------



## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Dermottj - living further south then me is in the position that the hives are building up in summer when queens are available. My problem - in the subtropics - is that my hives often build up in winter and I can't get queens. My main swarming risk is in August and September, winter and early spring.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If you move open brood above an excluder or capped honey they usually start queen cells on it - try it, and check back in about 5 days.


----------



## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"If you move open brood above an excluder or capped honey they usually start queen cells on it - try it, and check back in about 5 days. "
True, I have seen this. Obviously the queen can't acess it. I wonder what would happen if you moved them into the brood? Nothing?


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

You mean moved the queen cells back into the brood area? Probably your queen would be superceded. Same thing that would happen if you let it emerge above capped honey. There's a chance of course that the laying queen (or other bees) would kill the cell, but I wouldn't bet on it.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2011)

I wonder why nobody has mentioned checkerboarding above the brood nest? I know there are several ways of doing things, but Walt Wright's methods seem the best in many regards, depending on many factors, like your management style. 
Instead of the idea that crowding causes swarming, he says that it's the swarm prep itself that causes overcrowding. When they are prepping to swarm, they backfill with nectar, the broodnest becomes honeybound, the queen drastically slows (or stops) laying brood many weeks before the flow, etc...

According to Mr. Wright, queen excluders prevent queens from expanding the broodnest, and besides, opening up the broodnest requires you to open everything up every week and to start doing that early enough to nip swarm prep in the bud, you risk a cold snap chilling brood, plus you are being very disruptive when you need to be leaving them alone. Plus the math seems to show that all of that needless labor and disruption to the brood boxes (of replacing frames of brood with empties) doesn't really slow them down enough to prevent swarms....

I thought Mr. Wright was more popular and would have many folks suggesting his methods here, is this not the case for some reason?


----------



## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"I wonder why nobody has mentioned checkerboarding above the brood nest?"

I have to admit that I never heard of Mr Wrigth. I just had a read. Sounds interesting but I'm not aware of anybody in Australia using this method. Not sure if it would mean less work? I have to admit that I'm rather attached to using an excluder as it has worked for me.


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

dr.buzz said:


> According to Mr. Wright, queen excluders prevent queens from expanding the broodnest, and besides, opening up the broodnest requires you to open everything up every week and to start doing that early enough to nip swarm prep in the bud, you risk a cold snap chilling brood, plus you are being very disruptive when you need to be leaving them alone. Plus the math seems to show that all of that needless labor and disruption to the brood boxes (of replacing frames of brood with empties) doesn't really slow them down enough to prevent swarms....
> 
> I Mr. Wright was more popular and would have many folks suggesting his methods here, is this not the case for some reason?


When we talk about keeping the brood nest open, that also means removing excess nectar frames and placing them upstairs. I have no idea what your talking about when you say you have to open everything up every week. Simply not true. I've only had to open the brood nest on 12 of my hives twice this whole season all during normal regular inspections, What excess labor? You're already in the hives. As far as the cold snap issue goes, you just have to use common sense. 

I've never heard of Mr. Wright either.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

charlie b, would you describe how you opened up the brood nest in those hives?


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> charlie b, would you describe how you opened up the brood nest in those hives?


First I took out the excess nectar/honey frames and either moved them upstairs, more towards the side walls or redistributed to other hives. I replaced the frames with empty frames. I also either moved some of the brood frames up to the center of an additional box or redistributed them to weaker hives to boost the numbers and also replaced those frames with empty frames. 

It really worked for me. Prior to knowing about this technique, I was just throwing on supers as they filled up and had two hives swarm. After I followed Mr. Bush's technique, not one hive swarmed. I'm not saying it will prevent swarming completely but it's been working so far and it's easy to do.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks. that sounds like what i wanted to try next spring. by "empty frames", do you mean foundationless?


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Yes. I have most of my hives foundationless but I still have a few that are plastic. Those hives I just used empty plastic frames and it had the same effect. I'm really going to stay on top of it this season and try to do as many splits as I can if I find swarm cells.

Good luck!!


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks again cb. sounds like you had really good success doing this last year. this will be my first try at putting foundationless frames in. my thinking is that if i am going to split up the brood frames with an empty, that not having foundation will make it easier for the bees to 'reconnect' the nest.

best of luck to you as well!


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Well, by the time you think your hive just swarmed it's way too lat for checker boarding. In our area you would do it in (If I remember correctly) february - within 2 months of the winter solctice. That was long ago in Australia. Furthermore you kind of need to prepare the previous season, by leaving enough honey, and reserving enough comb to do the manipulation.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2011)

Charlie B said:


> I have no idea what your talking about when you say you have to open everything up every week. Simply not true.


 I guess I was referring to Michael Bush's proposed experiment between his chosen method of swarm prevention (opening up brood nest) and that of Mr. Wright (checkerboarding.) You can find info on all of that here on beesource.com. For that, Mr. Bush said to inspect the brood nest every two weeks to see if frames of brood/nectar need to be removed or moved up (or as I believe D. Lusby calls it; "pyramiding up.") Of course, Mr. Wright shows how even removing frames of brood is made up for by the bees in a matter of days, and so is not very effective at swarm control, even if done once a week.



Charlie B said:


> What excess labor? You're already in the hives.


Maybe, but "in the hives" and "going deep into the brood nest" is quite different, especially if you have deeps, at least according to my back. And it is less intrusive to the bees to check the supers as opposed to messing around in the brood and most likely rupturing queen cells when breaking boxes open, which is bound to happen during swarm season and mucking around in the brood boxes too often. 



Charlie B said:


> As far as the cold snap issue goes, you just have to use common sense.


 Depends on what you believe is happening. If you realize that bees are doing reproductive swarming preparation as part of the natural cycle, and you understand that this starts many weeks before the start of the flow, then you can see how effective swarm prevention must begin very early in the season, when cold snaps are still likely, even if short lived. 



Charlie B said:


> I've never heard of Mr. Wright either.


 You don't even need Google, you can find dozens of his articles and reports here on beesource.com going back several years. 


As far as the OP....the usual thing is to assume that someone who doesn't know if something is a swarm or not is just witnessing orientation flights, as is usually the case. But something to keep in mind is that, depending, I think, on your race of bees, the queen follows a swarm out of the box, they don't follow her. You can sometimes find her walking around on the landing board or the ground after the bees have left the hive. She may be injured or just working up the ability to fly, since she is unaccustomed to doing it. If she doesn't join them in the swarming, they will usually return to the hive. So you may have had a swarm and they just went home because she didn't make it to them. Just a thought.


----------



## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"If she doesn't join them in the swarming, they will usually return to the hive. So you may have had a swarm and they just went home because she didn't make it to them. Just a thought. "
I think this brings us back to the original question. Maybe they tried to swarm but the queen did not or could not follow so they went back.
No doubt the next part of the saga is not far off. Exciting.


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

To each his own.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2011)

Charlie B said:


> To each his own.


To a certain extent, yes. To paraphrase Walt Wright, if everybody got too smart too quick, it would be bad for the price of honey.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2011)

Dermottj said:


> On a previous thread I was told it was a good idea to put 2 supers on to assist with air flow, helping the honey ripen quicker.


Something to keep in mind is that there are often unintended consequences to what we think will help. Some folks have been known to ventilate too much, which can actually prevent the bees from properly regulating the inside temperature by letting in too much hot air that they must cool. Trying to "help" them cure the honey can also result in the surface layer of the nectar developing a skin which actually prevents the rest of the nectar from curing. Better to let them do it on their own time, in my humble opinion.


----------

