# Already ordered a nuc for spring, but now in love with top bar hives...



## NewBeeinKY (Jan 13, 2015)

Hi all--

I'm a beekeeping neophyte. I've read every book I could get my hands on, and I'm fortunate in that my small town has a great local beekeeping store and apiary. I already reserved and put down a deposit on a nuc for pick-up in May, and was operating under the assumption that I'd start with a Langstroth hive, because that's what everyone else seems to do.

Then I started reading about top bar hives. I'm a very handy person-- I have lots of woodworking tools and a love of making things with my hands. That, combined with my holistic approach to gardening, chicken-raising, etc. makes top bar beehives VERY appealing to me. Whereas reading about Langstroth hives has kind of made my head spin, reading about TBHs makes me happy. It feels "right." 

Unfortunately, I've already ordered my nuc, which, of course, will have standard Langstroth frames in it. I have been reading accounts of people cutting their nuc frames to fit into a top bar hive, but the idea of destroying half the comb and babies and such on each frame is very unappealing and seems very intrusive. I found a guy on another forum who said he simply cut a 2" hole in his TBH and a 2" hole in his nuc box. He matched the holes up and attached the nuc box to the TBH. Then, he blocked the entrance to the nuc box. The bees moved into the TBH and started using it, eventually completely vacating the nuc box, which was then removed and the hole in the TBH plugged.

Does this seem like something that could work??


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes, that could work. 
I would probably set the nuc into a ten frame box, then do it. When you saw the queen with eggs into the TBH, with eggs still in the Langstroth too, you could then disconnect the two again. You could eventually end up with a Lang box and a TBH box. One thing that will help you is to make the TBH box width the same as the length of a Langstroth box. That way, you could move frames/bars from one to the other with minimal destruction of frames.


----------



## mcthomas (Jan 13, 2015)

NewBeeInKY.. Have you thought about a Top Bar Hive that the Langstroth frames will fit into? I'm not sure how many hives you intend to start off with, but, a suggestion.. 
You could take your Nuc, put it into a Top Bar HOrizontal Hive, and order a package and build a regular Top Bar Hive, and see how they both do.. Obviously, you are going to get a better start with a Nuc, but, knowing that, you will have two sets to look at, can experience both hives, and see what you really want,, or build two of the Horizontals and do the same.. It is always nice to be able to look at two hives at the same time.. And, if they are both the same, you can move some bees/brood from one hive to the other to help a weak hive build up a bit faster, etc.. 
One think I have not seen in most top bar hives is a separation board.. Something to make the hive smaller, and then, add bars as they grow, and move the divider board back as they grow.. Seems the best way to do that anyway.. 

Take a look at this plan set here: http://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/long-langstroth-plans.shtml 
It will accept the Langstroth frames. 
You can do what you want, but, looking at the box, I would make a few changes.. I think I would put an entry on one end of the box about the size of the ones you see on the sides.. I might try the side entries when the hive gets bigger, and stronger, but, for starters, I would close them off. And, when I opened them, I would make them much smaller, and only open one at a time.. You would have to have a lot of bees before I opened all of them up, and don't know that I would then. The guard bees will be busy keeping an eye on all of them.. Just my opinion, but, I could be wrong. 
I think I would also design the roof on a slant, and cover it with some sort of metal sheeting to make the roof last longer, and get the water running off behind the hive, instead of in front of it.
Then, if you wanted to get real fancy, put a screen bottom and some oil trays to catch any other critters that are not wanted in there. Even if you just make some cutouts of the bottom board here and there, and put screen in the cutout, and fix a shallow pan in below the screen, it should give you some idea if there is a problem with the hive beetles, etc. 

At least it is one more option to consider, and you can do some more reading, and studying if you havn't had enough up to this point.. 
And,, let me add this one thing.. I have never owned a bee, or hive, etc.. Just researching myself.. 
So, this might give you some more ideas.. Depends on the funds, contacts, etc.. 

I am going to start with 5 established hives with bees already overwintered.. Two deep boxes each and two supers each.. So, I'll most likely be building more supers anyway.. 
So, I figured I would Make one of the Horizontal Top Bar Hives, and two or three 5 frame Nucs, and some Swarm traps made out of 10 frame deep boxes.. If I get lucky with the swarm traps, I figured I would segment one of the Horizontal TBH's, and open up each end, and have two hives in one.. Now, if that will work or not, I have no idea.. 
Pheromones might mix, and confuse them.. I have no idea.. Might cause a war, etc... But, I really don't think so.. That might be when I would open up one of the side entries in one half, etc... and leave the end open, like it was.. If it causes a problem, I'll move them right back to the deep hive I caught them in, and let them stay in the hive they picked after they swarmed.. 
If it was a really nice swarm (larger one), I would probably put them in a Horizontal by themselves.. Depends.. I'll have to see how each hive performs before I make those choices.. Maybe that gives you some food for thought.. Find some Local Bee Clubs, learn all you can, but, don't discuss your "Wild Ideas" to loud, until you have proven them, then, just offer what you have done here and there.. Some of the old timers think there is only one type hive and one way to raise bees.. 

Cheers and good luck.. I hope to be getting started soon. Waiting on a warm day to go over and see the 5 hives that I have agreed to purchase if everything looks ok.. Then, will spend a few days building everything else to be ready for the busy season..


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Build a long hive that takes Langstroth frames and make some top bars for it. When you get the nuc, just install it.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

RayMarler said:


> Yes, that could work.


And it may not. Just because it worked for the guy on another forum under his specific conditions doesn't mean it will go the same for you (not you Ray). You will spend/waste a lot of time trying to get them to move from one to the other. If it's your only hive, I'd cut to the chase (pun intended) and simple cut the frames as needed to fit, screw your top bar to the top bar of the frame if it doesn't fit perfect, and get them in your TBH.


----------



## Bsmith7773 (Jan 11, 2015)

Just change your order from the nuc to a package. You still have quite some time before your shipment and I'm pretty sure someone else would be happy to buy the nuc. Most orders placed right now are just promises to buy that way the beekeepers have rough number of how many packages or nuc they need to make.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Just build a long lang works the same as a tobbar hive has the stability and availability of frames/ foundation


----------



## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I'd back up a second. Both are nothing more than boxes, and there is almost zero substantive difference between the two hives.

IMHO, the only real differences are vertical orientation ration (which is not more or less natural than horizintal) and the use of frames (which keeps combs from being attached to the box and changes some airflow and probably some thermodynamic differences. 

If one sees the comb attachment as important, then a long Lang is not a good solution. If that is not your issue of concern, then I suggest you look again to see what it is you think is more natural in a tbh...it simply isn't. If lifting is an issue for you then there may well be advantages to a tbh....but it is really just another box for bees....no more or less natural than any other cavity filled with bees.


----------



## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

NewBeeinKY said:


> Does this seem like something that could work??


It will work better if you have them build a few small combs with brood in them on bars from your TBH. Then place the new brood with the queen in the TBH portion with a queen excluder separating the two hive types. In 21 days all brood will be emerged from the Lang half. I would make the hole bigger between the to hives so they have good contact through the excluder.


----------



## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

NBKY you have a lot of great answers here in a short time all with slightly different perspectives. It really is a choose your own adventure story. Sometimes when you choose the exact same strategy it still comes out different. I had an opportunity to do a cutout this last year that turned out to actually be 3 separate colonies in the same building. They were all in exactly the same stud space 22 inches wide by 3 1/2 inches in depth and 9 ft in height. All combs came from the top down. 2 colonies were 4 ft and the other was 5 ft (comb space). Each colony was oriented differently in the space. The first was almost on a 45 degree angle so that each comb was about 6 inches wide. The second was much more organic but based on maybe a 66 degree angle. The last one all of the comb was 90 degrees, or parallel to the siding, with 4 layers of comb. This was a fantastic experience. You have so many options. It sound like you are in for a lot of fun.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Eric please tell us you have pics to share of that cutout , that sounded like a really cool experience


----------



## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

There are a lot of advantages to starting with more than one colony. Maybe you should also get a package and start one of each type. I did both and eventually gave up on the TBH.


----------



## Silverbackotter (Feb 23, 2013)

I too have both, just build a long-lang.

Hank


----------



## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Harley Craig said:


> Eric please tell us you have pics to share of that cutout , that sounded like a really cool experience


Here's a few pics of the 3 cut outs Eric did last Aug. Just so you all know Eric is a successful TBH beekeeper running about 50 TBH's treatment free.

Cut out #1 west side of building.

















Cut out #2 on west side of building

























Me with the bees









Honey from one of the cut outs. All 3 gave similar amounts of honey. 









Cut out #3 on east side of building.

























With queen in cage.


----------



## AdamBeal (Aug 28, 2013)

I agree with trying both a lang and a top bar so keep your nuc and get a package also. I started last year with a single package i put in a top bar hive. I now wish I had bought a nuc for my lang also. I think if I had to do it over again personally I would have gotten 2 hives up and going the first year. I can't get that year back but this year I am getting 2 nucs for langs I have built!


----------



## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

You will lose many of the advantages of having more than one hive if you have two of different styles.

Your beekeeping will be much more robust if you have 2 langs or 2 tbh....1 of each precludes sharing resources.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If your heart is set on having a TBH, unless you build one that can fit Langstroth frames so the nuc can be put straight in & you go from there, most other methods of transfer are fraught with difficulty for a new beekeeper with no experience, you should as advised, change your order to a package.


----------



## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

OT ...I agree 100%, and posted here to that effect.

I do find these generalizations to be very unhelpful.

Why talk about " some books" and " authors". 

Generalizations cast a wide net, and leaves it up to the reader to figure out what authors and what books are being talked about.

Presumably from your experience and expertise you have a problem with some things claimed and espoused in some books. I can't imagine having a rich crop of beekeeping literature without that being the case....but even saying that, I agree with you about these particular issues.

But snice you are the one with the expertise and the one that is expressing concern, it would be more helpful to all of us (especially the new and unexperienced beekeeper who you are concerned about being misinformed) to talk about specific claims from specific sources.

I don't think I've been particularly silent about the sources of bad information I read and hear.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Oh thanks Deknow and very valid points.

However when I posted I realised it was in the Top Bar Hive forum and some of my comments were not appropriate in this forum so deleted part of my post, so some of the context of what you posted is not there, you obviously started writing your post before my deletion happened.

Perhaps if this comes up in the general forum I will be more specific which books I was talking about. I believe Wyatt Magnums book to be a pretty balanced Top Bar Hive book, he gives useful information rather than being primarily concerned with attacking everybody else.


----------



## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

Hi NBKY, so I have been thinking about what you are thinking about doing. Obviously there is not a lot of support for it on the thread. It can be done. When you attach the nuc hole to your tbh make sure the Lang bars are parallel to your tbh bars. This is very important. If you are able to make wax guides in the center of your bars as Wyatt Mangum does you will be much more inclined to succeed easily. If things do get a little off you will be inspired to learn how to make adjustments.
It is clear from the thread that everyone is concerned for a new beeper starting out. The warnings are all very clear. If things to get built in odd ways you can also make frames as in the pictures above and cut and paste the comb into the frames. Yes there are more advanced techniques involved, but if you are inspired and have considered all of the warnings then all is good.
To clarify I am not advising that this is the best way to achieve your goal. There is another way to go about it which has not been mentioned yet. You can allow the colony to grow and maybe make the investment in a single deep Lang. after you observe them filling out that single Lang you can take the queen and place her in a cage in your TBH the. Put the TBH in the location where the Lang was and shake a few frame of bees into the tbh, feed a bit and release the queen after a few hours or in the evening. There are plenty of videos on you tube on the subject of shook swarming.

I look forward to hearing how things unfold

EC


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As has already been mentioned, but I will repeat because I think it's important. Having two styles of hive without the ability to interchange combs will be a very big disadvantage. Also drawing any conclusions other than what you happen to like based on how well they do will be misleading. One colony often does significantly better than the other even when they are on identical equipment and treated exactly the same. I would pick one and do two hives of that style. If you want natural comb, you can do it in a top bar hive or a Langstroth hive. If you want a horizontal hive, (no boxes to lift) you can do this with either a Langstroth or a top bar hive. If you start with a nuc, the long Langstroth will be the simplest and you can add just top bars after the initial nuc if you want to make them, or you can use foundationless frames if you prefer.


----------

