# Nosema spore counts this fall



## Brian Suchan

Short winter? Is there such a thing up there?


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## Ian

Brian Suchan said:


> Short winter? Is there such a thing up there?


After last winter, any winter would be shorter! LOL


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## beecavalier

Good question Ian and thanks for posting your results...I'll be pulling some samples in 4 days and will post the results...what are your gut feelings of previously wintered colonies versus spring packages when it comes to nosema rates at this time of year? I think you've posted in the past that NZ packages don't have significant varroa in the first year and I'm just wondering if those low varroa rates possibly impact nosema rates.


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## Ian

beecavalier said:


> what are your gut feelings of previously wintered colonies versus spring packages when it comes to nosema rates at this time of year?


I have not separated my samples but you ask a good question. I have not noticed any performance differences between the packages and my operation stock. If I run more counts, I will include a seperate sample. 

One thing I have to consider is my T mite counts are undetectable. Also my varroa mite counts are 1/4 of a percent. So with these two major stresses on the bees very low, perhaps a higher nosema infection will be handled,.?

Next week Monday I am sending a live bee sample away to get a full viral analysis. 
www.thenbdc.ca
Knowing my viral levels in the bees will also help determine their health and condition. Having all this information at hand will help me understand what the bees are doing later in Winter and spring. Right?


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## camero7

I have found that dead bees on the landing board have very high spore counts both last year and this year. However, live bees under the migratory cover have very low or no spore counts. Randy Oliver also reports he sees this. I will not use fumigillin and feel that nosema, without heavy stress is not a problem. I think you'll find low virus issues with your mite counts. I believe that virus was a major cause of my high losses last winter.


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## Ian

camero7 said:


> I have found that dead bees on the landing board have very high spore counts both last year and this year. However, live bees under the migratory cover have very low or no spore counts. Randy Oliver also reports he sees this.


I have sat in on one of his presentations and remember him saying the same thing. So Cam, basically he is saying the older bees are the ones who fall susceptible to the infection, which makes lots of sense. Can you draw the conclusion that when winter bees age, they will all fall to the same fate? Regardless of the other stresses on the hive, if there is a nosema infection, it will present itself as winter drags on...and if spring drags on, hives will dwindle. 

you mentioned virus being a major cause of our losses last winter, how do you know that?


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## davidsbees

I had very low virus ,varroa and nosema last fall (David Wick) by January all numbers though the roof don't take any chances I would treat. In May-June my nosema jumped (20m)so I treated with fumagillin dry knocked it back to 0 so been keeping a close watch and treated once more this summer,Then going to treat in November.


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## camero7

> Can you draw the conclusion that when winter bees age, they will all fall to the same fate? Regardless of the other stresses on the hive, if there is a nosema infection, it will present itself as winter drags on...and if spring drags on, hives will dwindle.


Hasn't been my experience but I winter outdoors. Don't know if indoor wintering would be different. I have very low spore counts in the spring here.



> you mentioned virus being a major cause of our losses last winter, how do you know that?


Only talking about my hives and it is only a thought. Mite counts were very low, no nosema, pretty good clusters.


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## Ian

camero7 said:


> Hasn't been my experience but I winter outdoors. Don't know if indoor wintering would be different.


THe only difference between wintering indoors and outdoor is that the indoor hives are held longer without flight, so in a way Nosema would be a greater stress on an indoor wintered hive.


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## camero7

> THe only difference between wintering indoors and outdoor is that the indoor hives are held longer without flight, so in a way Nosema would be a greater stress on an indoor wintered hive.


Not sure I agree. The stress of extreme cold and the temp swings might be even greater. Isn't that the reason you winter indoors? Even down here we have long stretches of days with no flight.


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## Ian

Yes, absolutely. The biggest thing is it gets them out of the wind and helps manage those extremes. Otherwise wintering inside is the work substitute for wrapping.
My thoughts were directed towards Nosema. Confinement exaggerates the problem late winter


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## JSL

Ian said:


> Confinement exaggerates the problem late winter


 - This is the key. If they cannot clear their gut contents, levels often continue to rise. 

I didn't see it, but assume your samples were taken after treatment? For peace of mind, you could resample, treat or both if you can get a quick turnaround on samples.


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## Ian

JSL said:


> I didn't see it, but assume your samples were taken after treatment? For peace of mind, you could resample, treat or both if you can get a quick turnaround on samples.


yes the samples were taken before the treatment was fed though the winter feed syrup. I will be taking further samples this week to try to get a more accurate measure of the Nosema levels in my hives. Samples from the same jar should not be this fall off. Or my samples were analysed improperly.


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## Ian

camero7 said:


> I have found that dead bees on the landing board have very high spore counts both last year and this year. However, live bees under the migratory cover have very low or no spore counts.


Cam, as winter drags on, and those bees under the lid age, do you think the nosema levels will increase to the same levels as found in the bees dancing around the front entrance? 

This is the reason why we test nosema from the front entrance, to be able to determine the levels of infection more accurately. As those bees die off, the nosema flys off with them, but the infection still holds within the colony in the young bees, which as they age, will express the same level of infection in their guts. More or less depending on the conditions provided. 

So a hive going into winter showing a mid level infection needs attention otherwise the infection will exaggerate itself later in winter as the bees have no way of ridding the infection. Yes the bees may be able to handle it without anyother disease stresses but you will be depending on a nice early spring to clear up the infection. This is where fumagillin comes into play.

Lots of beekeeper working though these last two cold long springs were having trouble keep their bees going. Not many around here knew what their levels were... and many of those beekeepers were blaming other such things as pesticide exposure for failing hives. Funny thing how the hive were able to recover so swiftly as better weather arrived.


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## JSL

Ian,

There can be a lot of variation between colony infection levels and even among workers from the same colony. One really high individual in a composite sample can elevate your counts.


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## Ian

Two of my count from the same sample came back .62M and 2.7M, 15-20 bees used in each count out of a sample of 1500 bees from 30 yards. Huge variation. I understand what your saying, which tells me the number of bees in each count need to be larger.


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## Mbeck

I'm sure you've see his information.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/nosema-ceranae/sampling/

I'm far from knowledgable on this subject and not commercial.

Just a thought.
Have you considered taking and testing your own samples?
You may not have the same results as those sent off but I would think that controlling your own process would result in more consistency year over year. It might make it easier to develop a meaningful base line and follow it's progression.

I'm sure you already have plenty to do


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## Ian

Mbeck said:


> Have you considered taking and testing your own samples?


Yes but I do not know anything about this process. Something I could train for. 
Its kinda like grading my wheat crop. I can do it myself but the grain graders know what they are looking for and can tell me exactly whats going on. 
I like to tap into others professionalism. I cant do it all myself.


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## Mbeck

Ian said:


> I cant do it all myself.


Its a good point. 
Reading through the explanation of the method on scientific beekeeper it's seems like a process that could produce different results in different hands, potential for wide variation between yards and even hives kind of like a mite roll.

It was just thought, not one formed from a particularly relevant perspective!


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## Ian

This link was brought to my attention;

http://www.extension.org/mediawiki/files/7/77/nosema_spore_count_hemacytometer.pdf


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## camero7

> Cam, as winter drags on, and those bees under the lid age, do you think the nosema levels will increase to the same levels as found in the bees dancing around the front entrance?


Not sure. I do know that samples from deadouts I sent to Beltsville came back negative for nosema, even though I found some nosema in dead bees on the landing board that I assume had been hauled out from the hive.



Ian said:


> This link was brought to my attention;
> 
> http://www.extension.org/mediawiki/files/7/77/nosema_spore_count_hemacytometer.pdf


Randy Oliver also has directions. I follow his and use the same microscope he recommends. I don't get exact counts but do get a very good idea of nosema in the hive.


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## Ian

Cam, I have been reading through the tremendous amount of writing of Randy Oliver and found the answer to the question I posted to you. My question; Can you draw the conclusion that when winter bees age, they will all fall to the same fate? Regardless of the other stresses on the hive, if there is a nosema infection, it will present itself as winter drags on...and if spring drags on, hives will dwindle.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/nosema-ceranae-kiss-of-death-or-much-ado-about-nothing/

"Dr. Denis Anderson explained to me that “Nosema [apis] follows a very much “temperature driven” pathology. That is, a few bees go into winter infected, they spread spores to neighboring bees in the winter cluster (forming ‘pockets of infection’ within the cluster). These pockets get larger toward the end of winter until they are completely eliminated in spring when the infected bees fly out and die."

"Nosema ceranae follows a different seasonality. Instead of spiking only in November and March like its cousin, it is present throughout the year, and thrives in summer. Colonies may struggle or collapse even during a spring or summer bloom."


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## Ian

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/nosema-ceranae-kiss-of-death-or-much-ado-about-nothing/

"Effect of chilling on the infectiveness of nosema spores. Unchilled spores of both species (bottom bars) infected 80% of the bees with a 1000-spore dose, and 100% with a 10,000 spore dose. The infectivity of N ceranae spores dropped substantially after a week of refrigeration, and dramatically after a week of freezing. Modified from Fries (Bitidningen 107, 2009) by permission."

I am thinking freezing winter out dead out equipment in my refer would probably one of the most proactive measures I could take to controlling nosema in my apiary. Instead of recycling infected comb back into the operation, a simple week of freeze out would practically sterilize my comb...


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## Vance G

Sounds like a good thing to do. My dead outs get frozen automatically:<} I haven't lost a colony to nosema in 5 years and that is without treating. I wonder if it is the mostly new comb and equipment.


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## Ian

whats your counts this fall?


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## irwin harlton

Nosema ceranae Escapes Fumagillin Control in Honey Bees 
http://www.plospathogens.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.ppat.1003185, 


spore count actually increases after treament


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## Ian

Interesting thought;

"Use of fumagillin may increase the prevalence of N. ceranae and is potentially a factor in replacement of N. apis by N. ceranae in US apiaries."

I do treat every fall with fumagillin. My recent tests from NBDC identified the nosema as ceranae and at low to mid levels. I have applied a treatment this fall aswell and have send further samples away for testing.


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## Roland

Ian wrote;

I am thinking freezing winter out dead out equipment in my refer would probably one of the most proactive measures I could take to controlling nosema in my apiary.

My personal experience can not support that statement. A freezing winter seemed to have no effect on the spores. 

We did a test, new bees in old frozen dead outs, old equipment from storage, and new equipment. Only the new bees in new equipment made honey and lived. 

crazy Roland


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## Mbeck

This may be of interest.

http://www.extension.org/pages/3036...irradiation-acetic-acid-and-heat#.VECP29m9Kc0


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## Ian

Roland said:


> A freezing winter seemed to have no effect on the spores.
> 
> We did a test, new bees in old frozen dead outs, old equipment from storage, and new equipment. Only the new bees in new equipment made honey and lived.
> 
> crazy Roland


was it Nosema apis or ceranae


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## sjj

They do not allow us here in Germany to apply any treatment against Nosema.


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## Roland

Ian asked: was it Nosema apis or ceranae?

Never spent the money to find out. As soon as we knew the symptoms, and knew the solution, there was no need to address it by it's proper name. 

Crazy(and cheap) Roland


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## Ian

Roland said:


> and knew the solution, there was no need to address it by it's proper name.
> 
> Crazy(and cheap) Roland


solution? please tell...


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## Ian

Roland said:


> Nosema apis or ceranae?
> 
> Never spent the money to find out.


Our government has established a bee disease diagnostic lab which can test for all bee diseases. Species identification of the Nosema is $20


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## Roland

The solution? I guess you want the answer to the 64,000 dollar question. I'll take that in small unmarked bills, or even gold bullion is acceptable.

Crazy and poor Roland


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## Ian

Roland said:


> INosema ... and knew the solution,


you mentioned you knew the solution, please elaborate,?


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## Haraga

Roland if you can send your bees to the lab up here in Canada I will pay for the Nosema test if you don't have the money.


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## Haraga

Roland said:


> Ian asked: was it Nosema apis or ceranae?
> 
> Never spent the money to find out. As soon as we knew the symptoms, and knew the solution, there was no need to address it by it's proper name.
> 
> Crazy(and cheap) Roland


What is "the solution"?


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## Roland

Haraga, thanks for the offer of testing. as for the "solution' I am awaiting the 64,000 dollars(tribute to Groucho Marx) in gold or silver(no Loonies). 

Clue: it is comparable to irradiation, which was demonstrated by Hackenberg in 2006. 

Crazy Roland


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## camero7

Just checked a few bees from each yard. Saw a few nosema spores but most bees were clean. I feel my counts are pretty low.


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## Ian

According to Randy's article, freezing comb for a week gets a good kill off of nosema c spores . If so, that would be much cheaper and easier than irradiation


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## Mbeck

Maybe ozone?
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar14/honeycombs0314.htm


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## Ian

Ian said:


> Next week Monday I am sending a live bee sample away to get a full viral analysis.
> www.thenbdc.ca
> Knowing my viral levels in the bees will also help determine their health and condition. Having all this information at hand will help me understand what the bees are doing later in Winter and spring. Right?


I have gotten my secondary nosema counts and viral analysis back. My initial sampling was analysed with a nosema spore count of 2.6M and identified as ceranae. Three weeks after a fall fumagillin treatment I took a sample for another count. This count came back at a .8M sprore count. A reduction of 1.8M. I also had my sampling tested for seven viruses and it came back negative on all viruses. Quoted from my report;
"Our diagnostic did not detect any 
virus in your honey bees not even the most extended and common viruses, which it is certainly 
impressive. "
My varroa counts came back consistent at .04%. 

This analysis has proved my hives are in good shape, with the only a nosema infection to watch. 

I am going to send anther sample in January to see how my nosema levels hold.


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## squarepeg

very cool ian. sorry for not reading the whole thread, but has anyone mentioned if getting the viral analysis done in the states is possible. my understanding is that beltsville doesn't offer that.


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## Allen Martens

Ian. Would be interesting to see what the numbers would be like in a control yard that wasn't treated and follow those number through winter as well. At this point you don't know whether the reduction in numbers is due to treatment or a natural result of change populations or environment.

Varroa numbers look excellent. Low varroa numbers probably contributed to your viral numbers being so great.


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## Ian

ya, no varroa is key to everything


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## camero7

squarepeg said:


> very cool ian. sorry for not reading the whole thread, but has anyone mentioned if getting the viral analysis done in the states is possible. my understanding is that beltsville doesn't offer that.


 David Wick http://www.bvs-inc.us


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## squarepeg

got it cam, many thanks. the web site linked above has been shut down, do you know what the fee is for getting a sample tested?


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## deknow

When I spoke to dave at WAS, he was quoting $50/sample ....but this was in lots of 20 (he has an efficient work flow for running 20 at a time....one or two would be significantly more expensive.
As I posted in another thread, the most interesting thing about his setup is that it will detect unknown viruses.


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## squarepeg

very interesting, many thanks dean.


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## deknow

Let me clarify....I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression. 

That is 20 separate samples run separately. ...not a pooled sample with one (dilute) result.


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## beecavalier

Got my results back from the National Bee Diagnostic Center...8 hives sampled...NZ packages this spring...couldn't detect any varroa or nozema.

I detected 3.3 varroa mites/per hive...72hrs after Apivar strips were installed...strips were installed after last honey pull...pulled strips after 42 days...took bee samples for NBDC...suspected they wouldn't find varroa...analysis confirmed this... pleasantly surprised with nozema rates...and NZ packages in general...just my experience so far...and nice baseline information to have...and use for comparison in the future.


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## AstroBee

Ian said:


> A reduction of 1.8M.


Ian,

Thanks for posting this experience. My question is why have I have seen numerous times that fumagillin treatment is not very effective against ceranae? It would appear that your results indicate otherwise, unless there was some other effect at play.


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## camero7

squarepeg said:


> got it cam, many thanks. the web site linked above has been shut down, do you know what the fee is for getting a sample tested?


Give him a call

BVS, Inc.
795 Porter Hill Rd.
Stevensville, MT 59870
406-369-4214

Last I heard it was more than $50.00


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## Ian

AstroBee said:


> Ian,
> 
> Thanks for posting this experience. My question is why have I have seen numerous times that fumagillin treatment is not very effective against ceranae? It would appear that your results indicate otherwise, unless there was some other effect at play.


I did not run any test trials, just posting my results for others to mull over. I Had my original samples re evaluated. 
I was told, as was suggested here in this thread, there are so many variables that affect nosema levels. One of those factors in my case was a fall time fumagillin treatment. I will be taking further samples this winter to monitor the situation. The thing is I don't know how my bees react to these levels because I have always been doing things as everyone else has told me. I'm going to monitor this disease as well as all the others and see what all happens.


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## B&E

beecavalier said:


> Got my results back from the National Bee Diagnostic Center...8 hives sampled...NZ packages this spring...couldn't detect any varroa or nozema.
> 
> I detected 3.3 varroa mites/per hive...72hrs after Apivar strips were installed...strips were installed after last honey
> pull...pulled strips after 42 days...took bee samples for NBDC...suspected they wouldn't find varroa...analysis confirmed this... pleasantly surprised with nozema rates...and NZ packages in general...just my experience so far...and nice baseline information to have...and use for comparison in the future.



Are these Arataki or Kintail packages?


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## mbholl

TO: Davidsbees,

How do you treat with Fumagillin dry? I read about feeding it in syrup, and drenching but not sure how to use it dry?


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## wildbranch2007

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...p=499262&highlight=Fumagillin+dust#post499262


post # 57

Protocol: 4 treatments per apiary.

1 Control
2 Sugar board (not a candy board)
3 Sugar board with 126 mg fumagillin
4 Fumagillin dust-4 weekly applications of 31.5mg/hive

Sugar boards...as the study says, not candy boards. Candy boards are made by heating a sugar solution to hardball, and pouring it hot into a rim.

Sugar boards are made by dumping granulated sugar into a clean (new) cement mixer and spritzing it with water. When enough water has been added, the sugar is poured into a rim where it cakes. No heating of the sugar. I believe this imitates well the use of granulated sugar above the cluster.


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## zhiv9

Ian, I have been re-reading some of RO's material on N. ceranae and was wondering if you had considered feeding pollen patties instead of treating with fumagillin when your counts were higher than you wanted? Though according to Randy, 2.6m might not actually be that high. It would interesting to compare treating with fumagillin, feeding pollen patties and a control group as Allen mentioned.


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## Ian

Yes I agree

There is lots to be gleaned from improving nutrition in our stock especially with nosema. I will be feeding protein patties late next summer.

Adam nosema counts and its corresponding troubles depends on many conditions. California conditions are a lot different than a manitoba winter.


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## beecavalier

From what I assume, they are from Arataki...would like to try a few Kintail for comparison


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## davidsbees

There two thoughts on nosema c "not a problem"and "kiss of death" I've seen it go from 0 to 40m in 2 months last fall/ winter then die befor you could do any thing about it. I think it's some where in the middle. I've treated 3 times this year and things look much better. The dry formula I use is one large bottle fumagillin to 200 ounces of "drivert" sugar run through a screen and mixed well. 1 ounce 2 weeks apart.


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## Keith Jarrett

davidsbees said:


> There two thoughts on nosema c "not a problem"and "kiss of death" I've seen it go from 0 to 40m in 2 months last fall/ winter then die befor you could do any thing about it. I think it's some where in the middle.


David, do you feel it was nosema had a large role in the die out or maybe a few things at play or a combination of many things? I just haven't seen any issues with nosema, at least not yet.


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## davidsbees

Kieth
That one hive I was sending samples to Dave wick and the virus level rose hand in hand so nosema is the one thing I can treat for. Mite were very low but I don't think it takes many to be a problem. I was checking nosema level my self weekly. It spread like a wild fire at the shop my asphalt lot was peppered with dead bees, not the case this year. Had not treated with fumagillin in 4 years I think the level slowly built up.


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## Keith Jarrett

David,

I think there are many things at play, I feel a weaken immune system lets things like nosema take a hold, what weaken them to that state.... the million dollar question, but I feel its a combination of stresses.


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## Ian

davidsbees said:


> Kieth
> That one hive I was sending samples to Dave wick and the virus level rose hand in hand so nosema is the one thing I can treat for.


David, what viral infection did you have? 
I agree with your plan of action. Contrary to some of the information out there, fumagillin still works. As you do, I feel the key is testing before and after treatments are applied to see the efficacy of the treatments. Otherwise everyone continues to make assumptions on what is happening. 
I agree with Keith, there are many variables at play here. I think this nosema canerae thing is going to take a few mallets to knock down.

A well fed bee is a healthy bee


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## Ian

Ian said:


> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/nosema-ceranae-kiss-of-death-or-much-ado-about-nothing/
> 
> "Effect of chilling on the infectiveness of nosema spores. Unchilled spores of both species (bottom bars) infected 80% of the bees with a 1000-spore dose, and 100% with a 10,000 spore dose. The infectivity of N ceranae spores dropped substantially after a week of refrigeration, and dramatically after a week of freezing. Modified from Fries (Bitidningen 107, 2009) by permission."


This little piece of information keeps bouncing off my head. A simple freeze out of dead out equipment could be one of the most pro active strategies in decontamination equipment. A week freeze out is not a very long time at all. Easily done.


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## Roland

Our experience does not support the spores being sensitive to freezing. There may be another factor, like freezing with low R.H. We have high R.H. in Winter.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian

Roland said:


> Our experience does not support the spores being sensitive to freezing.


Ya but Roland, are you talking Ceranae or Apis? I'm talking about Ceranae, that is what I have.


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## Roland

Ian , it killed 90 percent of the hives in the winter. Bees make little to no honey in the summer. Which one do you think it was? Back when we had it, they did not know how to cheaply test which it was..

Crazy Roland


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## Ian

Your talking of APIs.

because the work Randy Oliver has done on this shows that Caranae reacts differently to cold than Apis. Perhaps your conclusions were drawn from Apis.


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## zhiv9

Ian said:


> Ya but Roland, are you talking Ceranae or Apis? I'm talking about Ceranae, that is what I have.


Isn't what basically everyone in NA has? I think RO was struggling to even find a confirmed apis sample


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## Ian

how many years ago is Roland referring to. Canerae has not always been in our bees.
If my memory is correct, Canada started detecting it around 2006


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## Roland

It was first noticed in 2005/2006. Further experiments with old equipment determined it was in equipment used the summer of 2003.. 

I have a feeling that there are more variants/strains of Nosema than we know of. What ever we had killed everything in winter, and crippled them in summer, full hives, but no honey production. 150 lb difference in production.

crazy Roland


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## zhiv9

Roland said:


> I have a feeling that there are more variants/strains of Nosema than we know of. What ever we had killed everything in winter, and crippled them in summer, full hives, but no honey production. 150 lb difference in production.


Based on Randy's writings, this does seem to be the case. Devastating in Spain, but not nearly as bad in other areas with similar spore counts.


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## Roland

Yes, my personal observations matched those from Spain better than those from anyone in the U.S.A., but we where even before Hackenberg, just kept or mouths shut.

Crazy Roland


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## zhiv9

I got my results back today. I tested 4 yards. 0, 0, 500k and 1M. I would say the worst of the yards when feeding/wrapping was the one that tested at 500k. I plan to check again in the spring .


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## Ian

Ian said:


> I have gotten my secondary nosema counts and viral analysis back. My initial sampling was analysed with a nosema spore count of 2.6M and identified as ceranae. Three weeks after a fall fumagillin treatment I took a sample for another count. This count came back at a .8M sprore count. A reduction of 1.8M. I also had my sampling tested for seven viruses and it came back negative on all viruses. Quoted from my report;
> "Our diagnostic did not detect any
> virus in your honey bees not even the most extended and common viruses, which it is certainly
> impressive. "
> My varroa counts came back consistent at .04%.
> 
> This analysis has proved my hives are in good shape, with the only a nosema infection to watch.
> 
> I am going to send anther sample in January to see how my nosema levels hold.


Sent away a mid winter bee sample to get some Nosema counts and the sample came back at 2.7m. Which was nearly exactly the count I had before my treatment. So my counts went from 2.6m to .8m counts after the treatment, and now back to 2.7 mid winter. 

These tests results follow the same findings as the link Irwin posted earlier in this thread. I'm very disappointing the treatment was unable to hold levels down as I had anticipated. Nosema Canerae is proving difficult to manage, one less tool in the tool chest.

Bees in the shed look fantastic and content. Mite populations low and no virus detected, my hives should be better equip on handling this back ground level of Nosema Canerae through winter confinement...


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## WBVC

How does one contact..or get a price list..from this lab?



Ian said:


> Our government has established a bee disease diagnostic lab which can test for all bee diseases. Species identification of the Nosema is $20


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## Ben Little

Ian what are your plans for future treatment of nosema ?


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## RAK

Ian, did you try the Super DFM this winter possibly? I don't think they claim anything on Nosema but you never know. Lot of folks underestimate the power of beneficial bacteria.


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## Ian

WBVC said:


> How does one contact..or get a price list..from this lab?


www.thenbdc.ca

Incorporate these guys into your seasonal management plan

My plan...?? hmmm... Continue my focus on nutrition and and control the pests that I can manage. If you have been wondering why I have been chatting alot about probiotics... this is why. Possibly one way to counter Nosema. I know that some of the probiotics and prebiotic feed supplements in our cattle feed target harmful ecoli in the cattle's digestive tract. Thinking out loud here on beesource of course. I am going to test out my complimentary package of super DFM honeybees on 50 hives this season directed as per labeled instructions, one spring treatment one fall treatment. I am not worried about the hives this winter as they seem content and look fine but this back ground nosema level has gotten me concerned long term...


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## jean-marc

Janne:

Paul V. does counts for you if you bring in the sample to the Abbotsford office. In your case collect 15-20 bees per hive. The ones at the entrance are best if the bees are flying. Make a composite sample of perhaps 5 hives... for a total of 75-100 bees. Keep the bees frozen in a paper lunch bag. It keeps them dehydrated and frozen just the way the lab guys like them. He did a bunch of counts for us. We also sent a bunch of samples to the National bee diagnostic centre. 

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

I have to mail my sample so I use Alcohol. I took my sample in my sample container with about 100-150 bees, drained off the alcohol and mailed it straight to the NBDC.


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## Ian

What kind of spore count is everyone else finding this winter? I am trying to figure out if this is high... I'm told over 1m is over threshold but others have told me it "depends".


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## RAK

I'm testing the probiotics as well. I'm applying it on 100 hives in almonds next week.


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## Ian

RAK said:


> I'm testing the probiotics as well. I'm applying it on 100 hives in almonds next week.


what/which probiotics?


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## RAK

SuperDFM.


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## wildbranch2007

Ian said:


> I am trying to figure out if this is high...


One question I have, is how do you know what your spore count would have been if you didn't treat. It could have been much higher as a guess??


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## Ian

Yes you are right Mike, I have done the same thing I always do... all or not. 

Ben asked what changes I will be making to my operation next year,? One of the changes is 'changing things up'. For example, instead of running one recipe of supplement, I will be running three types. Instead of buying into super DFM-honeybees, I am going to run a trial on 50 hives and set up some kind of process to see if I can actually measure its efficacy. Instead of taking these results and scraping Fumagillin from my management program I am going to actually run trials (with controls) to actually figure out what is going on. Otherwise how the heck am I to know whats going on? I am planning on fall treating with Thymol, but instead of treating 100% of my apiary, I plan on running a trial on 500 hives and see if it works. 

The problem is all this take a lot of work, but simply keeping record of yards managed a certain way and recording observations against pest levels should help glean some insight on what is going on. The great equalizer is the month of March in the winter shed...

I am extremely disappointed with the results I got back on my Nosema spore count. I have been talking to people who have been giving me some real sound advice on nosema treatment and they suggested Fumagillin is still very effective in controlling Nosema Ceranae as it was with Apis. Maybe your right Mike, maybe it did work but I will not know because I did not run the proper controls. But what this does do is slap my face and wake me up to the fact that I have no idea of whats going on and its time to actually put a plan in place that spells things out for me.


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## loggermike

I would recommend getting a microscope and doing my own sampling rather than making management decisions based on a few small samples. There is just too much room for error.I don't count spores anymore, but just have a low, medium and uh- oh grade when looking at spores.


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## deknow

Ian, at WAS this past fall, Eric Mussen stated very clearly (without providing specific data) that it was true that as fumagillin levels disapated to a lower concentration, that it did stimulate spore production and levels of nosema were similar to untreated colonoes, that the survival rates of the treated colonies was higher.

If that is accurate, then I don't think you can determine where you are based on spore counts.


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## loggermike

So nosema bounces back as treatment wears off. It seems a stretch to claim the fumagillin actually caused that effect.I think we are just dealing with a tough 'bug' here.One that can do a lot of damage under the right conditions.


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## johno

Guys I am surprised you big bee boys don't have your own microscopes. Scientific beekeeping has a section dealing with nosema and how to sample and use a microscope and how to judge your infection levels. I have about 50 hives and have an Amscope binocular microscope at a cost of under $200 from Amazon. Cost less than the proceeds of 2 nucs sold.
Johno


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## Ian

johno said:


> Guys I am surprised you big bee boys don't have your own microscopes.


Johno, whats your spore count?

One thing that needs to be considered is time and efficacy of analysis. For me I have a hard enough time getting around to make those necessary samples let alone sitting down to analyse them. I send my guys around, collect a sample and send it away to professionals to get me what I need to know, for $20 plus a few buck mail. Cheap. You need to realize I not only manage 1000 hive apiary, but also a grain and cattle farm. We bring in consultants to help us with every aspect of our farming business decision making. Out side opinion is priceless.

A micro scope is fine and dandy but whats the point if its not being used?


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## Ian

deknow said:


> Ian, at WAS this past fall, Eric Mussen stated very clearly (without providing specific data) that it was true that as fumagillin levels disapated to a lower concentration, that it did stimulate spore production and levels of nosema were similar to untreated colonoes, that the survival rates of the treated colonies was higher.
> 
> If that is accurate, then I don't think you can determine where you are based on spore counts.


I did not run any controls, so I can not see the entire picture here,

but based on what information I have provided, it seems to follow exactly what is being said by Eric Mussen so far. 

Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean? "then I don't think you can determine where you are based on spore counts"


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## Allen Martens

I tested midwinter after I had treated in fall about 5 years ago and was surprised to see how high the nosema numbers were. Like you, Ian, I didn't do a control so I have no idea what the numbers would have been if I hadn't treated.

Since then I haven't treated and I can't say my winter survival rates have been any worse. Lots of factors are involved. I know beeks that don't treat and they have fantastic winter survival rates. Some years treating might just be the difference between a bad year and disaster. How knows?


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## deknow

Ian...to clarify.....

If the same count means different things for treated and untreated colonies, then it doesnt make sense to look at spore counts of treated colonies and compare to spore counts of untreated colonies.


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## Ian

Dean

I don't understand why your saying the two counts between treated and untreated mean different things?


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## Ian

Allen have you done a winter test this year? I would be extremely interested to hear other beekeeps spore counts


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## jean-marc

I used our provincial services because it is free. I sent some to the National Bee Diagnostic Center because if I don't who will. Somebody has to support them. i like to free myself from of these mundane tasks so I can do things with my time that have more meaning than counting Nosema spores.

Jean-Marc


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## Allen Martens

Ian I haven't sampled for several years.

Getting kind of busy but I might do some sampling to compare to yours for interest sake. Not sure what my fall numbers were.

Did you sample from the entrance or under the lid now in winter?


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## Ian

I hear ya Jean Marc

Thx Allen 
If appreciate that

I sampled from the entrance on a mild humid day as the bees were bearding, but went up top to sample a few under the lid aswell


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## Allen Martens

Ian said:


> I did not run any controls, so I can not see the entire picture here,
> 
> but based on what information I have provided, it seems to follow exactly what is being said by Eric Mussen so far.
> 
> Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean? "then I don't think you can determine where you are based on spore counts"


Randy Oliver has an nice description of why spore counts might not be very useful.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-15-an-improved-method-for-nosema-sampling/


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## JSL

Allen Martens said:


> Randy Oliver has an nice description of why spore counts might not be very useful.


I will second that. It is good to know what is going on in your operation, but the trouble with spore counts is that it is difficult to correlate them with a predictable outcome. I have been in operations where the beekeepers were concerned by the inspection reports and informed that their colonies would be dead shortly. The trouble was the bees looked great and it would be a hefty bill to treat. What do you do? No treatment for the high spore counts and the bees went on to make a great crop. Sometimes, high spore counts may mean trouble, sometimes they simply mean high spore counts...


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## Ian

Like everything else related to animal health , a poorly fed animal with high overall pest pressures will succumb to lower levels of disease pressure. 
Using spore count is only one facet of my over all disease servalance program. 
I know my v and t mite counts, viral analysis , nosema counts and I know I put them away well fed. All disease levels are low except nosema which is moderate, and my bees appear content. 
Now if I also had the other compounding issues, I bet that nosema infection would be more noticeable. 

How many beekeepers who lost their hives up here last spring knew their hives pest pressures and nutritional status? And how many of them immediately pointed to pesticides as the cause and only cause killing their hives?


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## Ian

johno said:


> Guys I am surprised you big bee boys don't have your own microscopes
> Johno


Johno, do you know your spore counts?


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## johno

Ya Ian , last time I checked a couple of weeks back seemed very light. It seems they have been doing checks in Virginia and find nosema counts go down here in the winter. I do not want to treat as there is evidence that if the bees are able to get a good variety of pollens they seem to handle the disease, so you go back to nutrition.
Johno


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## Ian

What's considered light counts in Virginia ?


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## johno

I do not remember the figures given in the article about tests run in Virginia, but the gist of it was that nosema populations declined during the winter months. I don't know if it has anything to do with the fact that we have many flying days .in Virginia during the winter. With my samples I just do a field of vision count of spores which would have amounted to less than 2 million which would be considered light.
Johno


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## Ian

Ya different conditions, different lead to different disease thresholds. 
We are told in Manitoba that under 1m is considered light. Our bees are flightless for 5-6 months. 

One thing mentioned is nosema Ceranae does not shedd like APIs did.


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## Ian

Question tabled;
"don't understand why your saying the two counts between treated and untreated mean different things?"

An anonymous PM suggested the treated bees have compromised micro flora due to the treatment as compared to the assumed healthy micro flora gut bugs in the non treated. 

And if this is the case, my next question, without just tossing all this information out the window and ride blind, How are we to use this information effectively?


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## jean-marc

i have tracked Nosema Ceranae closely some years. It appears like Nosema Ceranae has a mind of it's own. I have taken samples pre and post treament only to have numbers rise during the treatment period. One year I even gave a second complete round of treatments only to have levels at near threshold levels. That is where they had been 6 weeks earlier. It looks like bees also need to fly a lot to void themselves and the N. ceranae spores that inhabit their digestive system.

My renet counts that were done in BC showed very low levels in most samples but that there were some with high levels... i.e.- more than 5 000 000 spores per bee average.
The samples sent to the NBDC for the most part showed low levels with some at 0. At first glance it made me think that the equipment at the NBDC is more sensitive than the equipment in BC and is able to detect lower levels. For the most part things looked good but again some samples were showing sky high levels. I figure "Huh, oh well such is life" So now I know a little bit but I do not really know what to make of it.

Bees look good for the most part. Losses in the 3.5% range so far. 25% are very good... complete box or more, 15% are weak or weaker... 3 frames or less. I think we are in good shape but you just never know in this game.

Jean-Marc


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## Allen Martens

Not sure my results will help you make a comparison Ian, but here are my results. I analyzed 10 bees individually from 16 different hives. 

8 hives had no infections
3 hives had 1-2 bees infected
4 hives had 3-4 bees infected
1 hive had 6 bees infected

23/160 bees infected. Those that were infected were very infected.

Only one hive showed signs of dysentery and that hive had 3 infected bees. 

I am going to treat most and not treat some of them and see how the infection levels compare after a month.


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## Ian

Yes that's great input. 
It re inforces the point how an analysis done by random sampling gives results that don't necessary hold true as symptoms. One or two bees severely infected can screw the entire sample.

Be sure to come back with further sampling information. 

A beekeeper yesterday made an interesting comment to me when I was talking about fumagillin and how it's recommended syrup application is flawed. He said "should not the professionals figure this out?"
He is right. Why do we not have a clear answer to this discussion ?


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## wildbranch2007

Ian said:


> A beekeeper yesterday made an interesting comment to me when I was talking about fumagillin and how it's recommended syrup application is flawed. He said "should not the professionals figure this out?"
> He is right. Why do we not have a clear answer to this discussion ?


according to Randy Olivers latest article, there is some research being done on some "new" chemicals for Nosema C. the obvious company that should come out with something would be the manufacturer of fumidil but why would they, people are already buying the product.


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## camero7

RAK said:


> SuperDFM.


Hi RAK,

Curious if you had any thoughts after trying Super DMF? I'm going to try it as soon as pollen starts coming in here on 1/2 my nucs.


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## sharpcut

Tony talks some about spore counts at 33 min (NJBA Winter Meeting Featured Speaker Tony Jadczak)

https://youtu.be/t0rC8KnwET8


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## loggermike

Thanks for posting that. It was worth listening to the whole talk!


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## Ian

Ian said:


> Sent away a mid winter bee sample to get some Nosema counts and the sample came back at 2.7m. Which was nearly exactly the count I had before my treatment. So my counts went from 2.6m to .8m counts after the treatment, and now back to 2.7 mid winter.


I took an bee sampling after the hives were set out of the winter shed and after a few days of good flight. The sample came back at 3.2m increased from the January sampling of 2.7.
I am in the middle of a three week drench treatment working with a control yard to help compare the treatments efficacy.


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## davidsbees

Here it is mid spring and nosema has reared its ugly head had some month old splits that were not building so took samples from 3 yards counts were 30-40 spores per field of view :-(. Same as last year so going to start treating today.


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## Ian

I have finished my fumagillin treatments, and will be testing my counts in a couple weeks, and then testing again in three more weeks. 

What does 30-40 per field of view equate to?


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## davidsbees

Hi Ian
Roughly 5-10 million per bee.


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## davidsbees

Hi Ian
Roughly 5-10 million per bee.


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## zhiv9

My spring results came back with a mean of 3.8 million - max yard was 6.2 million, min yard was 0.5 million. My fall average was 0.35 million with max yard of 1 million and min yard of 0. I haven't treated at all.

I am struggling to figure out what the results really mean. There has been no correlation between nosema levels and winter loss or nosema levels and build-up that I can see.


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## davidsbees

I think the damage From high nosema levels in the spring are very subtle but 3 weeks after the first fumagillin treatment the results are remarkable : taking feed faster, whitening comb when feeding, more brood food around the larva, greater bee activity,faster build up and very low to near zero level of nosema. Then I think they start to fall naturally June through October. Just my personal observations


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## Ian

zhiv9 said:


> I am struggling to figure out what the results really mean. There has been no correlation between nosema levels and winter loss or nosema levels and build-up that I can see.


Just like other animals, an unhealthy gut leaves opportunity for other such stresses, diseases (virus) to take hold.


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## zhiv9

Ian said:


> Just like other animals, an unhealthy gut leaves opportunity for other such stresses, diseases (virus) to take hold.


Agreed, and fed treatments like antibiotics or antifungals upset the gut balance. The net advantage may be positive or negative. At this point it isn't clear to me that there is a positive effect.


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## Ian

Ian said:


> I took an bee sampling after the hives were set out of the winter shed and after a few days of good flight. The sample came back at 3.2m increased from the January sampling of 2.7.
> I am in the middle of a three week drench treatment working with a control yard to help compare the treatments efficacy.


I got my nosema samples back from my spring testing. My out of the winter shed general test came back at 3.2m.
I treated my apiary with fumagillin except one control yard. The treated apiary sample came back at 1.9m counts where as my control yard came back at .7m spore count. Other observations are that the control yard had out performed the treated colonies in growth and vigour. My control yard is by far my best performing yard within my apiary.


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## grozzie2

Ian said:


> My control yard is by far my best performing yard within my apiary.


How is this going to change your strategy going forward ?


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## Ian

pulling off the fumagillin. going to monitor, going to use a test yard with treatment. 

Interesting observation is that this strain, Ceranae dropped from 3.2 to .7 throught the spring. Most everything I have read suggests that ceranae does not follow that same seasonal habbits as APis. This test shows that it did exactly the same.


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## Ian

So I've done further nosema sampling to monitor exactly what is going on. To summarize what I've monitored this winter;
-the Nosema tested is Nosema Ceranae 
-Apiary tested approximately 2m spore count this past fall. No treatments of fumagillin were administered.
-two separate samples were taken late winter (mid Feb and early March) each randomly sampled 25% of the hives and one sampled sick looking hives (only 12 sick out of 1200 identified). The results came back approximately 20-25m spore counts and 70m on the "sick" sample. 
-I set out the hives out on March 10 and the hives flew for five good days. 
-out of time restraints I did not treat anything and did not feed patties except for 50 hives. Each of these hives got a patty and a 1/3 dosage drench treatment of fumagillin. 
-because I WORRY too much and love to work I picked up my apiary and sent them back into storage to wait out March, as they still sit inside waiting to be put out early next week.

So after I put the hives back inside I collected a composite sample generally from my untreated untouched hives and a sample from my fumagillin/patty hives. 
The results came in today. That free flight dropped my apiary spore count by over 10m spore counts to 13m and the treated nearly shed it all dropping it down to 1.6m spore count. 

So my plan moving forward? The hives look good right now sitting in the shed. I don't know what to do... hold true to not treating and expect a further reduction naturally or treat with the apparent sure bet to slash spore counts...
Which ever strategy I decide on, there will be a control set in place to measure efficacy. I'm also going to test a few with Thymol treated syrup, Thymol I got from a friend in the business. Another factor is my first wave of crew comes in Monday so work load and time restraint will not be an issue. Getting 3-4 applications done per round is now again possible. 

www.stepplerfarms.com


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## Ian

"Hi Ian
Just reading your latest post on nosema results, I find it very interesting, and am glad you are sharing your results. 
Just a thought, were the "treated" hives all given pollen supplement, as well as drench treatment? I've heard supplement will help clear nosema, so can you be sure it's the drench that's lowering the counts so dramatically? I'd love to hear nutrition and cleansing flights alone are enough to keep it at bay. 
Good luck with the upcoming season!"


I left out one test as I was unsure if it was accident. 
I ran out of fumagillin treatment and 12 hives went with just patty. That count was .6m spore count... Not sure if it was anomaly because of the small sample size


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## Woodside

took a sample at the end of Feb from bees in almonds. count came to average 1.1 mil spores/bee. Sampling nosema is a tricky business. Should ideally take bees from entrance of hive at same time of day any time you collect a sample. If not from entrance, then from cover or outside honey frame, which ever it is, choose the same spot every time. From everything I have gathered.. if you have nosema it is almost definitely ceranae. Also... a study suggests that fum-b is a bit hard on bees. Randy O isnt exactly sure, but from what I understand, thinks 5mil spores could be treatment threashold. 5m+ consider a treatment... otherwise fum-b is harder on bees than nosema. I am not saying thats what to do.. but it might be some guidelines. Also most things we read about nosema was published a while ago and usually talks about Apis.. However apis is not much of a threat, basic warmer weather and good nutrition fixes that problem. Ceranae is a different bug though. Has been suggested to use 125% recommened fum-b vs ceranae as it is a bit tougher.


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## wildbranch2007

Ian said:


> So after I put the hives back inside I collected a composite sample generally from my untreated untouched hives and a sample from my fumagillin/patty hives.
> The results came in today. That free flight dropped my apiary spore count by over 10m spore counts to 13m and the treated nearly shed it all dropping it down to 1.6m spore count.


are you going to test the fumidil treated hives b/4 you put them back out to confirm the study that says after you treat with fumidil the N.C. ends up getting worse?? thanks and good luck and excellent information we are getting from your testing.


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## Ian

Yes I will be.


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## Ben Little

Ian, have you used the Heilyser Bee Tea that is Thymol based ? I have been looking at the product as an alternative to Fumagillin.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/beetea.html#


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## Ian

Ben Little said:


> Ian, have you used the Heilyser Bee Tea that is Thymol based ? I have been looking at the product as an alternative to Fumagillin.
> http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/beetea.html#


Yes, this is the thymol product I will be using on some of my hives.

What's your experience with it?


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## Ben Little

I am getting some of it to try, I haven't used it yet. I have been reading Randy Olivers study on Nosema over the winter months and didn't know that product existed until I saw it on a bee supply product list.


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## Woodside

Ben Little said:


> Ian, have you used the Heilyser Bee Tea that is Thymol based ? I have been looking at the product as an alternative to Fumagillin.
> http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/beetea.html#


Interesting. I am pretty sure that Thymol crystals do not mix readily in water. I wonder if it is crystals mixed into a powder median or some other sort of mechanic. If it is just mixed in crystals you should feed as soon as its mixed in syrup or they will begin to settle, (same happens when you dissolve crystals in alcohol and mix with feed.. the mixture floats and you do not get even distribution).


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## Ian

got my latest nosema counts back today. I’m finding these results interesting. To recap, winter testing results show composite sample counts ranging from 17-25m with samples peaking at 70m spore counts from sick looking hives. First flight on March 11 dropped those overall counts by 10m, a fumagillin treatment group purged nearly all. Results from my second flight sampling (current results) showed samples, regardless if treated or not, purged the counts testing in the range of 2m counts. It appears not only has the bee hives been able to harbour high infection levels through winter but the hives have also been able to effectively shed the nosema ceranae infection to a manageable level WITH AND/OR WITHOUT treatments.


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## Woodside

very interesting Ian! I am wondering if you have alot of soybeans/corn in your area. Also what your mite levels are. I read a study that concluded bees with nosema were 100x affected by pesticides. Also the open gut wounds from Nos would allow viruses into the system. However I imagine virus counts to be drastically lower without the presence of a high mite load.


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## squarepeg

very cool indeed, thanks for sharing ian. good move on letting them out to cleanse, interesting that purge was so marked. we have 'winter' here, but it's rare that more than 3 weeks pass without the opportunity for a cleansing flight. i guess that's a good thing.


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## Ian

5 month confinement holding 25m spore counts is a long way off the 1m treatment threshold.


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## Ben Little

Did the Thymol/ Bee Tea you are testing have any effect on the counts ? Really interesting stuff you are doing Ian, very good information.


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## Ian

I have not gotten that far yet.


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## Michael Palmer

Ian said:


> 5 month confinement holding 25m spore counts is a long way off the 1m treatment threshold.


I wonder if the 1m treatment threshold still holds for N. ceranae. I've had apiaries that came in at 7m, didn't treat, and saw no difference in wintering when compared with apiaries that had very low counts...n/d to 50k.


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## sqkcrk

Besides the fact that no treatment for N. ceranae exists. (I think that's a fact anyway.) The effectiveness of FumidilB is questionable, from what I have heard.


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## Ian

Michael Palmer said:


> I wonder if the 1m treatment threshold still holds for N. ceranae. I've had apiaries that came in at 7m, didn't treat, and saw no difference in wintering when compared with apiaries that had very low counts...n/d to 50k.


Ya, under the microscope the find mostly nosema ceranae. All I have been told has been terrible things about Ceranae, yet here I am wintering bees through 5 months of confinement sitting on 25m spore counts whom shed nearly all of it (down to 2m counts) after a few days of flight. And no observed signs of winter sickness. Although hives that tested 70m counts died with messy fronts


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## Woodside

Ian said:


> Ya, under the microscope the find mostly nosema ceranae. All I have been told has been terrible things about Ceranae, yet here I am wintering bees through 5 months of confinement sitting on 25m spore counts whom shed nearly all of it (down to 2m counts) after a few days of flight. And no observed signs of winter sickness. Although hives that tested 70m counts died with messy fronts


I am wondering if the pressence of mites (therefore viruses) and/or crop pollen containing pesticides has any affect on whether nosema C is a big problem. Are your bees sitting on heavily farmed ground? Do you feed much sub over winter?


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## Ian

Neonic city


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## Roland

Ian - 5 years ago I was told that it was impossible to differentiate between Nosema apis and Nosema cernae with a light microscope, and that it took an electron microscope. Has that changed?

Crazy Roland


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## Ian

Roland said:


> Ian - 5 years ago I was told that it was impossible to differentiate between Nosema apis and Nosema cernae with a light microscope, and that it took an electron microscope. Has that changed?
> 
> Crazy Roland


I don't know anything more than the results given


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## Allen Martens

I did a bunch of sampling for nosema last March. For each hive I sampled, I took 10 bees and checked each of them separately. Sampled about 200 bees. There were no bees with a light infection at that time of the year; bees either had no spores or through the roof numbers (wouldn't think of counting numbers but 100's of millions). Some hives had no bees infected, some had one or two, while others had up to 5 bees infected. I have no idea what happens to those highly infected bees during the first spring flight. Do they make it back? Does relieving themselves reduce their spore count greatly and the number a spores they contribute to a general sample?


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## Ian

I've been testing with composite samples, small amount of bees from a large sample groups. One thing I've noticed is the sampling results (multiple and checks) are all within the same infection level at the given time. I've seen no sporadic or highly variable test results. All the composite sample results taken within each specific time frame Showed roughly the same results. 
I think sampling this way is an effective way to measure the hive (apiary) infection levels.


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## Allen Martens

Ian, check out Randy Oliver's articles Sick Bees - Parts 15 and 16. 

I don't think I will ever bother doing any standard sampling anymore, only sequential sampling. Especially for bees that have been confined for winter.


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## Ian

Allen Martens said:


> Ian, check out Randy Oliver's articles Sick Bees - Parts 15 and 16.
> 
> I don't think I will ever both doing any standard sampling anymore, only sequential sampling. Especially for bees that have been confined for winter.


What Randy is saying makes sense. I'm going to have to buy a micro scope to proceed with sequential sampling. 
I would of been interesting to have some sequential samples done from my winter shed. With composite samplings of 25m counts, dropping to 2m after flight, makes me wonder exactly what he is suggesting, how many of those bees are infected? He seems to have provided a bit of a metric, so the next thing for me to do is get a micro scope.


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