# Box joints vs rabbit joints. Longevity from experianced beeks. Material?



## Aroc (May 18, 2016)

I personally believe the box joint is the best way to go as long as you have a jig in place for making such a joint.

I use rough cut fir. A local lumber mill cuts it to 8 foot lengths and whatever width I want. For $95.00 I think I have enough lumber to make more than 20 boxes. I have to dry it out and plane it but a heck of a lot cheaper than buying pre-built or even dimensional pine.


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

The boxes I buy are all box joints The boxes I build are all rabbit joints. All are glued , stapled and 4 deck screws in the corners. Both do the job . Protect the wood with a good primer and paint or wax/rosin dip and you should get many years with either.


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## tmwilson (Apr 5, 2015)

While the box joint would undoubtedly win in a stress test, in my opinion it's overkill unless you're rough on the boxes or move them often with equipment. As mentioned above, if glue and screws are used you should have no trouble with a rabbet joint. I only use rabbet joints on hive boxes, but again I don't truck my bees. 

If you're in it for the long haul I think cedar or something similar is the way to go. Check some local sawyers, you may find cedar or some other weather resistant wood for an affordable price. Cedar around here can be had for 2.00/bf if picked up from the mill. I would recommend against buying lumber from the large one stop for everything stores. It's often much cheaper at a real lumber yard.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

I Have use both. I will stay with my finger joints. The only way you would get any live out a rabbit is with screws. The last few years been doing about 40 + boxes a year. I like a big finger joint at the top of the box. On the frame rest side. I amity that I have gotten spoiled By a Amishmen.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

I Have use both. I will stay with my finger joints. The only way you would get any live out a rabbit is with screws. The last few years been doing about 40 + boxes a year. I like a big finger joint at the top of the box. On the frame rest side. I am mitt that I have gotten spoiled By a Amishmen.


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## spencer (Dec 7, 2004)

Finger joints all the way. When I started 11 years ago I cheaped out and bought all rabbited boxes. Alot of the supers are warping and leaving gaps for the bees to get in and out. Learned the hard way this fall when I placed bee escape boards under the honey supers to get the bees out. Came back a couple of days later and a few of the hives were robbed out due to a few of the gaps I missed taping up.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

a rabbet joint may be adequate for the hobby or sideline beekeeper. Most professionals use box joint because is stronger so lasts longer. More cost effective.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I'm still mad at Mann Lake for changing their nucs to rabbet joints, nuff said.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Wondering if anyone has feedback on these rabbit variations for a shaper; (Could not get an image to copy)

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shop...ages/shaper_join.html#shp_rabbet_miter_anchor

I do not think the double T & G would handle cupping.

The miter/rabbit (lower corner) looks interesting. Not up to a box joint but less end grain than a box and more glue less/ end grain than a simple rabbit.

The simple T&G (upper corner) would have end grain and the sides would be prone to end grain pop off to my view.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

Aroc said:


> I personally believe the box joint is the best way to go as long as you have a jig in place for making such a joint.
> 
> I use rough cut fir. A local lumber mill cuts it to 8 foot lengths and whatever width I want. For $95.00 I think I have enough lumber to make more than 20 boxes. I have to dry it out and plane it but a heck of a lot cheaper than buying pre-built or even dimensional pine.


How long do you have to dry it?


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## Aroc (May 18, 2016)

cervus said:


> How long do you have to dry it?


You might need to ask the lumber yard. The 4 quarter stuff takes a couple months or more in my shop. I try to get some air movement by stacking them with shims.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Hops Brewster said:


> a rabbet joint may be adequate for the hobby or sideline beekeeper. Most professionals use box joint because is stronger so lasts longer. More cost effective.


Seems like a lot of large operations also buy their boxes, and most manufactures make box-jointed boxes. I'm currently building a pretty large number of boxes, and I'm using 1" pine with rabbet joints, glue and screws. They're strong.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

air dry lumber dries at different rates depending on the species. so some 4/4 will take a couple months and some will take twice that. also realize it takes up space and has to be done correctly. even then some of the boards might warp into firewood. 

I made some boxes last year using rabbit joint. I might have brad nailed them but not screwed or ring shank. they failed this year so I bought 30 boxes unassembled and got a great deal. less then it cost for lumber. they of course are box joint. I am rough on my boxes.
even though the box looks easy making a jig that does it accurately and able to adjust takes some work. plus its a heck of a lot of pushing per box


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## Aroc (May 18, 2016)

We live on a place that used to belong to a commercial beekeeper. The place was loaded with old boxes. Most were box joints. Some were rabbets....note the spelling.... These were all very old weathered boxes. Probably 20 years or more out in the sun, rain and snow. Most all were in pretty rough shape and not usable by any means. Most all the box joints were still in place. A fair amount of the rabbet joints were split and coming apart. Not that anyone has plans to use boxes that long but I thought it was interesting. That's the only reason I decided to make box joints.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We probably have several hundred rabbeted deep supers that my father made, and numerous box joint deep supers, all from the '40s. I can tell without looking when I pick up a rabbeted box. It is much more prone to have play in the joints, making it easier to wrack it(to create a parallelogram) when your hands are in the short side hand holds.

Crazy Roland
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


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## tmwilson (Apr 5, 2015)

A very general rule is 1 year per inch in thickness for lumber to fully air dry. Using a kiln is much faster, but also has it's drawbacks if you don't really know what you're doing. If you dry lumber inside, assemble boxes with it, then put those boxes outside you may have issues depending on the difference in the inside/outside relative humidity. Wood type plays a huge role in this. Cedar is very stable under nearly all conditions, much more stable than most other species. Again, I would recommend finding cedar or something similar in your area. 

Most places that mass produce hives likely do so with the cheapest available lumber, therefore they require the strongest possible joint. If you use better lumber, you can use a more simple method to build your boxes.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Glue plus screws or spiral nails will get pretty good durability out of either joint. I made rabbet joints for a lot of years and typically got 25 years of service from the boxes so long as they were painted and maintained. Here is the kicker. A box joint will often rot faster than a rabbet joint. This is probably related to being in a high humidity climate in the southeast U.S. There is relatively more end grain exposed with a box joint than with a rabbet. Protect the end grain properly and this is not a problem.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I've been building all of my boxes with rabbet joints for several years and I have had none fail me yet. I make sure my cuts are clean, use a good Titebond wood glue and pipe clamp each box. When the glue has set and pipe clamps removed I'll insert a couple decking screws in each corner for additional reinforcement. 

There is much less end grain exposed with rabbet joints, and I'll coat it with a layer of wood glue before painting. It's a slower assembly process for me than box joints, but I just take my time and clamp one box a day over the winter months when there is not much else to do with the bees. 

If it matters to you, going with rabbet joints rather than box joints allows me to have much less waste with a standard length of lumber, almost no waste at all with rabbets.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

But box joints look soooo good! I'm gonna give it a go this winter. Almost have my jig assembled, and the numbers work out to about $8/box (stock lumber from big-box store). I've made shallow supers with rabbets, and they seem to hold up fine. They say that the time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have both styles from the mid '70s and the rabbeted joints with spiral nails are holding up fine.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Have quite a few boxes and it appears to me that it's not worth the time to build them with finger joints. I have the technology to do it and just cant seem to want to take all the time and make all that extra sawdust. Titebond-3. If it weren't for good outdoor glue I'd be most likely using them finger joints. 

Can whip out pile of boxes way quicker than you can paint them. 

Note: after I discovered how to cut my own handles I was delighted. No more goofy handles screwed onto the sides!


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

cervus said:


> How long do you have to dry it?


Estimates of Air drying times for several hardwoods and softwoods USDA technical report FPL-GTR-121
http://sbisrvntweb.uqac.ca/archivage/030108539.pdf
This document gives some really good tables as to how long to stack the wood and actually shows that depending on your location and time of year of stickering it pretty much determines your dry time. Do not let the size of the document deter you, it has a bunch of tables that you grab your area and hard or soft wood, look at the time of year you stack it and call it good.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

adg72484 said:


> Just curious everyone's thoughts on box joints vs rabbit joints.


Here is a good thread on Rabbets Vs fingers (good since I had something not a wise crack to say)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...et-Joint-Hive-box-quality&p=805027#post805027
Wood magazine issue 181 on the torture test of joints (page 68) shows that the rabbet has a pull apart strength of 1329 lbs and shear strength of 73 lbs (with 3 nails). Box joint 2019 LBS, shear 84 lbs (no nails recommends number 18 brads for the edges of the fingers). The locking miter came in at a respectable 1899 lbs pull apart and 141lbs for shear. (I just got the Wood magazine first 200 magazines on CD and just thought I would brag).


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Fusion_power said:


> A box joint will often rot faster than a rabbet joint. This is probably related to being in a high humidity climate in the southeast U.S. There is relatively more end grain exposed with a box joint than with a rabbet. Protect the end grain properly and this is not a problem.


This always comes up when we have this discussion.
But I want to ask, "How many boxes have you had to throw out due to a box joint rotting?"
My answer; NONE.
I have been a beekeeper for 26 years and throw out boxes every year and not one single box ever failed in the corners.
They ALL fail sooner or later on the top or bottom edges where they meet either the bottom board, lid or another box. Never on the "exposed end grain".
I have a burn pile down in the hollar with oddles of old failed boxes. None failed at the joint.
For me, to build a box with anything other than a tight, glued box joint would be a waste of a good board.

:lookout:


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I shouldn't even give a veiw cause I am new enough that my advice could lead some one to more trouble. With that said, I tried the rabbit joint and glue and thought the rabbit was weak expecially up by the frame rest and I found it harder to get good consistant measurements. I did some finger joints (no glue) and like them best for measuring looks and seemingly strength but watching them with bees in them, they seem to swell uneven in damp weather leaving a gap along the seam. This seems to go away when it gets dry again. I did one hive body in a toung and groove style which is really a rabbit joint. The last two I made I did with a butt joint and think I am going to stick with that due to ease of build and I finally am using planed wood that is consistant 3/4 inch (I was using unplaned rough cut). I am using oak for all of this. I decided on the butt joints and no glue after building a warre hive and following abby warres advice that butt joints were good enough with enough nails. I just happen to have a half of tub of 2.5 inch nails left over from a roofing job and have decided to use them. I am putting 6 to 7 nails down each corner and they haven't been in the weather yet but I think they are going to do ok. They are easier and faster then the finger joints. 
gww


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> I have a burn pile down in the hollar with oddles of old failed boxes. None failed at the joint.


 I figured out a long time ago that extra care has to be taken when preparing the edges where boxes stack. The best method I've found is to coat the upper and lower edges with a thin layer of beeswax and melt it in with a propane torch. With a wax coating, I get 25 or more years from a box.

I've been at it 47 years now Harry and have thrown away a lot of boxes that failed at the joint. When I first started building my own equipment in 1976, I did not know that the joints were so easily damaged by decay so all I did was paint them with 3 coats of outdoor latex. Those boxes, made of ponderosa pine shelving board, almost all failed either at the edges or in the joints within 10 years. Since then, I started coating the exposed end grain with glue and giving the corners a couple of extra coats of paint. This reduced failure of the joints and the wax on the upper and lower edges reduced damage in those areas. I now expect 30+ years from a box though with a couple of re-paintings. I am using cypress for all hive parts except the frames.


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

Box joints are inherently stronger because of the increased glue surface and interlocking nature of the joint and can very much be of benefit to anyone who moves them around a lot or is running a serious bee operation over time. They can certainly look great, too, for folks who clear-coat their boxes or don't finish at all. Paint, however, doesn't really let that "beauty" remain very visible.  Box joints are also a better 
method for "production" manufacture of boxes because the necessary jig also speeds things up over producing a rabbit joint.

For those of us who are primarily "backyard beeks" (or supporting one with deluxe bee condominiums like I am  ) a properly machined and glued rabbit joint is still pretty darn strong and will last for many years. I'm very comfortable with them holding up for "our" use, but again, everyone's needs are different. I also use a Euro sliding table saw in my shop and that precludes using a dado stack which in turn precludes creating and using a box joint jig.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

HarryVanderpool said:


> This always comes up when we have this discussion.
> But I want to ask, "How many boxes have you had to throw out due to a box joint rotting?"
> My answer; NONE.
> I have been a beekeeper for 26 years and throw out boxes every year and not one single box ever failed in the corners.
> ...


Important point here. For me, most rotting takes place on a long edge. Never on vertical joints.

FWIW, I had a bear hit a yard a few years back. Smashed up some boxes but some just got warped a little. A few were rabbet joints but most were box joints. I pushed the boxes straight. The next year I had rot problems in the rabbet jointed boxes but not in the box jointed ones. I think that once the paint seal was broken, the design of the rabbet joints allowed a lot more water to run into the long joint than would have occurred in the box joint. Note that all the boxes had a good oil based primer which goes a long way to helping water problems. Still, I'll no longer make boxes with rabbet joints. Maybe nucs but even then, how hard is it to cut fingers once you're set up. 

Maybe locking joints.... maybe. Still needs good paint around here and lots of folks don't do a good job with that.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

For stationary hives, any old joint that tickles your fancy is fine with me.

We take our hives places.
Terrible things sometimes happen.
All of the boxes pictured and not pictured, (24 hives got toppled by an irrigation gun) were undamaged and tight.
NO parallelograms!!!! All square and in tact.
We build our equipment for the long run!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

These supers all date to the mid and late '70s. They are all honey supers that winter indoors. I see rabbeted homemade ones, finger joints homemade and finger joints from two different manufacturers. All have held up equally. I did have trouble with some finger jointed ones from Oregon that were outdoors a lot. They tended to rot not at the joints but the sides. I attributed that to pithy poor lumber. But they did make it 30 -35s. Their first finish was a Varathane sealer. I forget the 2nd product and over the years they might have gotten a third treatment. Well built supers and frames that last 40 years....what a great investment. They have brought in a crop every year.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

My worst rot on some traps that were only out one year came on the cleats that I used as hand holds. If I use cleats againg I will atleast put an angle on them to shed rain. I also had some bad mice (I believe or maby squirl) damage on the traps I had in deer stands. I have not been painting anything and just keep building more stuff then I have bees for. I see lots of old unpainted barns. The only differrance from a barn would be the moister from the bees and I think they sorta paint the inside of the rough cut hives. 

Oak is heavy but I saw some rot happen very quickly on pine.
Cheers
gww


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

gww said:


> . I see lots of old unpainted barns. The only differrance from a barn would be the moister from the bees and I think they sorta paint the inside of the rough cut hives.


Just an observation here. There is a difference in the way barns and bee hives shed moisture. The majority of barns in Kentucky are not painted, and it is true, they last a long, long time. One difference between barns and bee boxes is, barn wood is vertical, moisture runs down the length of the board, In bee boxes the boards are horizontal. Horizontal doesn't shed the moisture as well as verticle. 

Lots of early American houses were clap board/bevil siding/lap siding houses. Wood was horizontal, but overlapped every 4 to 10 inches, and the lap allowed the moisture to run off without running the full height of the house.

cchoganjr


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

since this is such a good discussion i'll throw a variation in. what about box joints that are say 2 inches long instead of a normal 3/4. less glue surface but able to be cut on a scroll saw or band saw for people without a table saw. I guess I would place it in between a rabbet and a normal box joint.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Cleo
Your point it taken. I guess I should say thanks for your hand hold jig. My last ones I used a dado blade and just cut a groove but have used your jig on quite a few. Either way, even though I like the cleats, the square ones I used made the water pool against the box and the rot was fast. I am just learning wood working and so at this point am making more stuff then needed and will swicth out my bad stuff as needed. When I get proficiant enough to mass produce stuff, I may build enough correctly and well enough to last a long time. I am now just learning what I like and have the skill to do. That is why I like threads like this for info from people who have already did it. When you use the type of wood that I use, you learn that wood has a life of its own and not all acts in the same way. Lots of things to learn before I die.
Cheers
gww


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

kaizen... My personal opinion, if you try to cut box joints with a scroll saw or a band saw you will find that you will not be able to be precise enough with the cuts to get the joints together. Box joints must be very precise. Even with a good dado set, and a sled or jig, everything must be precise. 

Look at it this way, (using a dado and sled/jig), if you are off only 1/64 of an inch on the first valley or finger, by the time you make 9 of them, you are off 9/64 or slightly over 1/8 inch. They would not go together. In your case, you would have fewer valleys and fingers, so,you might be able to make it work.

I think it would be difficult to be precise enough to cut them with a scroll or ban saw without leaving gaps or being too tight.

Just my opinion, I have no proof, and it might work, I just doubt it. There are people on this Forum that are far,far, better woodworkers than am I, maybe some of them will chime in with their knowledge and advice.

cchoganjr


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Pre power tool days dovetails were hand made, some rather crudely and still strong. Still, a crude hand box joint today is probably not the equal of a fair power rabbet, at least mine would not be. Time is not even close.

(Yeah, I know it is "bet", does stop me from typing "bit".)


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## dansar (Jul 25, 2013)

Rabbet joints are very strong if the box is assembled correctly. The orientation of the grain is also very important. Check out the grain direction on this box I made yesterday. I also glue and staple, 4 staples in the front and 3 in the side to lock it all together.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> kaizen... My personal opinion, if you try to cut box joints with a scroll saw or a band saw you will find that you will not be able to be precise enough with the cuts to get the joints together. Box joints must be very precise. Even with a good dado set, and a sled or jig, everything must be precise.
> 
> Look at it this way, (using a dado and sled/jig), if you are off only 1/64 of an inch on the first valley or finger, by the time you make 9 of them, you are off 9/64 or slightly over 1/8 inch. They would not go together. In your case, you would have fewer valleys and fingers, so,you might be able to make it work.
> 
> ...


guess i'm just throwing out solutions to those that don't have the setup. suppose with a chisel and cove saw it could be done. I've hand cut dovetails on a few drawers. With box joints the first piece you would make would be used as the template for the adjoining piece. so where a jig multiplies errors this way you are tracing and cutting so if you make an error its not automatically repeated. band saws with a thin blade I think would do a great job. i'll have to give it a go this winter. My table saw for some reason makes me nervous as with a fence and piece standing up I can't see the blade well and push the sled. plus all that clamping and unclamping. ug I hate repeated steps.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

That might work. As I said, I have never done it. I do think it will be a slow process.

I do believe a sled is the way to go if you want to use a dado and make box joints. With my setup, ( I will attach a photo of my sled) you don't need to see the blade, the sled is always aligned. You don't need clamps, as the finger guide sets the wood to the next position. As soon as you push the sled forward, you are protected, as you cannot get your hands in the blades, because the blades are under the sled, and there is no exposure to the blades as they pass through the wood. 

The photo does not show it, but, the blades are under the sled, with no exposure to you, as the blades go through the wood, and the sled is retracted for the next cut.

As for repeated slides, that is true, but, it doesn't take that long. I normally cut 2 boards at a time, 2 ends or 2 sides. More than 2 puts a strain on my cheap Sears saw. 

As far as time required to make the cuts, place the piece over the guide, 2 seconds, push forward 2 seconds,reposition next cut over guide 2 seconds, so 6 to 10 seconds per cut. Granted the rabbet joint is faster, but, since box joints are commercial standards, (and I sold bees in boxes I built), I chose to go box joints, using a sled.

I have also said many times on this forum, any way of attaching two boards together will suffice for bee boxes. A simple butt joint with glue and screws will certainly work. Rabbet joints with glue will also work very nicely. ( Listen to Odfrank, he has been around the block) But, in order to look like commercial boxes, (if you are selling) the industry standard is box joints. I am not saying the box joint is any better, but, like it or not, the industry standard, (overwhelmingly) is box joints.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Forgot to enter the photo of my sled. As you can see in the photo, the rear of the sled is built up so the blade stays under the rear of the sled for safety.










cchoganjr


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

HarryVanderpool said:


> They ALL fail sooner or later on the top or bottom edges where they meet either the bottom board, lid or another box. Never on the "exposed end grain".
> For me, to build a box with anything other than a tight, glued box joint would be a waste of a good board.
> 
> :lookout:


I just got about 50 used boxes, I although you mention it was said before I guess I never heard it. Just went out and looked at the boxes and have about 4 deeps that will not be in service as deeps, 2 rotten in the bottom, one on top and 1 where it was obviously wane (more bark than wood). 
If this is the case why do we never paint the edges? I have never seen boxes with painted edges (where the boxes meet) and after the first time in the field I doubt that paint would stick.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

minz said:


> I have never seen boxes with painted edges (where the boxes meet) and after the first time in the field I doubt that paint would stick.


I always paint all my edges, and always have. Everyone around here paint the edges. After 3 to 7 years use, scrape with hive tool and re-paint. No problem with paint sticking.

cchoganjr


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Abby warre on building his feeder gives the tip to paint the edges while assembling. My assumtion is the paint becomes sorta a sealer to keep the feeder from leaking and I think would work as a glue or like lots here say, just use glue.

I have found comming up with paint is easier and cheeper then coming up with glue though so far I have mostly been to lazy to do either. I used to own some rental properties and have built up an aversion to painting that will probly come back to haunt me some day.
Cheers
gww

Ps It might be stupid but I kinda like the rustic look of unpainted stuff also.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Forgot to enter the photo of my sled. As you can see in the photo, the rear of the sled is built up so the blade stays under the rear of the sled for safety.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice Cleo! Also, thanks for the advice on how to beat Oliver Frank catching swarms too!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Charlie...As good as Frank is at catching swarms, you might want to ask his advice. I really like his tip on well used logs on top of catcher hives.

cchoganjr


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I have a pile of logs I plan to use on every trap!


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## RedHalo (Apr 24, 2016)

Well, I'm no expert or rocket scientist, but I made mine out of butt joints and glue, in corner vises and pipe clamps as well as crown stapling the bejesus out of them. Only been a year, but they don't appear to be going anywhere anytime soon. Solid as concrete! Box joints, as awesome as they are, would require way more patentce than I have to give.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I'm with you Red Halo. I have about 20 supers that I glued and screwed butt joints and 6 years later they are wearing as well as my other box joint supers. :thumbsup:


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## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

dansar said:


> Rabbet joints are very strong if the box is assembled correctly. The orientation of the grain is also very important. Check out the grain direction on this box I made yesterday. I also glue and staple, 4 staples in the front and 3 in the side to lock it all together.
> View attachment 29293
> 
> View attachment 29294
> ...


Those don't look like rabbit joints. They look like butt joints.


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## dansar (Jul 25, 2013)

ericweller said:


> Those don't look like rabbit joints. They look like butt joints.


Check the thickness of the ends the exposed grain is less than the thickness of the timber. It's a rabbit joint.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I was labeling some honey jars today and noticed I was sitting next to a vintage rabbetted joint super. These were built by the late Tom Davidson and I have had some since the '80s when he unexpectedly moved to the big apiary in the sky. Please admire his craftsmanship with the sheet metal frame rest end protectors, kind of hard to see. The boxes are nailed from both sides and will last many more decades if stored inside during the winter. I hope someone also admires my hive craftsmanship long after I have extracted my last crop.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Looks like Tom used some nice quality wood as well. Beautiful.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I think Oliver could easily convert his main apiary into a live, interactive beekeeping museum. If you're a beekeeping history buff, his apiary is a "must see" if your planning a vacation to the Bay Area.:thumbsup:


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

Dansar do you cut a 3/4in rabbit to make the side boards fit flush? Or any one else for that matter that uses the rabbet joint


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## adg72484 (Nov 22, 2015)

ethanhogan said:


> Dansar do you cut a 3/4in rabbit to make the side boards fit flush? Or any one else for that matter that uses the rabbet joint


Thats what I do. I built 10 medium supers this week all of them are that way. Much easier and quicker than box joints. I am still undecided if I want to use box joints for my deep brood boxes. I think I will build half with box joints and half with rabbit joints to compare over time. There is definitely less exposed end grain when using rabbit joints.


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

I am going to use the rabbits. I am non migratory hobbiest that is tired of paying
Mann lake for something I can probably build. I will be using my router and table for rabbet joints instead of table saw thought.


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

adg72484 said:


> Just curious everyone's thoughts on box joints vs rabbit joints. Last winter I built all box joints for my deeps and built rabbit joints for my supers. I figured the deeps would be on the hives year round so they deserved the "better" design. Getting ready to build a bunch of boxes for this coming spring and wondering what everyone else experience has been with the longevity of both joints. Also I use all good quality pine. What does everyone else use for material? Cedar is an option but about twice the cost of pine.


I inherited a bunch of boxed joint boxes and I find that the dont stand up that well when prying frames. I prefer the locking miter joint myself. Here is a thread I started last year

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?318168-Fabricting-Boxes-using-a-Locking-Miter-joint


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## dansar (Jul 25, 2013)

Yes. I use a dado blade set. It can be done with a single blade and a couple passes with the saw. A friend of mine here in New Zealand has made a series of videos showing how to make a box with rabbet joints using the table saw and single blade. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1XgvhBzU3M


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

AAIndigo said:


> I prefer the locking miter joint myself. Here is a thread I started last year
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?318168-Fabricting-Boxes-using-a-Locking-Miter-joint


 Thanks for the link. Answers my earlier post # 10.

My concern with the locking miter has been cupping before assembly. Are you using a feeder, jig or just good wood?

Which miter cutter is that?


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## ABruce (Dec 27, 2013)

Saltybee said:


> Thanks for the link. Answers my earlier post # 10.
> 
> My concern with the locking miter has been cupping before assembly. Are you using a feeder, jig or just good wood?
> 
> Which miter cutter is that?


I have the same thoughts , I have the bit and use it for cabinets with out issue. but getting a 1 by 10 inch softwood board to stay flat enough to cut it and assemble it has not worked, the boards all seem to have some cup and do not slide flat across the table. How are you doing this?


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

"I have the same thoughts , I have the bit and use it for cabinets with out issue. but getting a 1 by 10 inch softwood board to stay flat enough to cut it and assemble it has not worked, the boards all seem to have some cup and do not slide flat across the table. How are you doing this?"

Odd I answered earlier but it didnt post?

I run the wood crown side down on the deck and crown side up against the fence. Just role with the crown through the cutter. I hand feed so can feel the wood better. 

I have had no issues with cups. I glue and clamp with pipe clamps, staple as I go and move the clamps down the joint if needed.

Make sense?


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

ethanhogan said:


> I am going to use the rabbits. I am non migratory hobbiest that is tired of paying
> Mann lake for something I can probably build. I will be using my router and table for rabbet joints instead of table saw thought.


Using the router table to do the rabbits is just fine and a good "production method". You only need to make one slight fence adjustment when you move from doing the rabbit for frames (5/8" wide x 3/8" deep) to the one for the sides. (3/4" wide x 3/8" deep) Do the frame rabbit first...and you can do that along a longer length of material...and then size to length and do the rabbits for the sides. That eliminates tear-out at the top. A sled with a handle and a fixed hold-down will help you do the ends of the narrower boards safely...something similar to a coping sled. Use feather boards when you run the rabbet for the frames to keep the material flat to the table for consistent depth.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I have not bought the cutter for miter joint. Why I asked which cutter. AA's joint has a 90 degree finger, I can see that his method of handling the cup would make a full depth cut which would close with a 90 degree movement at assembly. Not sure all shapes would close that well. I can see how the cup would move through the same point of cut, keeping the cut depth the same. Maybe thinking too much.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

cupping of the wood will prevent accurate rabbet cuts and also mess up accurate finger joints. More so with deeps than mediums. I always orient growth rings so the heart side will not be inside the box. To flatten the board before jointing you can wipe the cupped side with a wet rag and lay cup side down on a cement floor. Even without wetting, if you leave them overnight they will straighten considerably. Wetting the short side can straighten the cup in less than an hour. That takes some practice and eyeballing. You should be assembling shortly after cutting the rabbets or finger joints or the cup you straightened will return as the boards dry and you will have to fight that as you assemble.

In any case having the piece slightly cupped toward the box is better than splayed out at the edges. Remeber " never put your heart in a box of pine" It does make a difference no matter what form of joint you are doing!


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

Lock-miters are generally best with high quality, dry lumber and will be a bit more challenging with the less stable "construction" lumber that many of us typically use for "deluxe bee condominiums". I personally would not select that joinery method, although the lack of exposed end-grain is a positive thing.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

For those using a router for rabbet. Wouldn't a drawer lock bit make a stronger joint with less of a cut? Same end grain exposure. Miter lock is basically a drawer lock with a 45 extension rather than a 90.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I've tried both and found the rabbet joints tend to warp at the corners even though I glue AND nail. Now I buy all my woodenware from Mann Lake with thier boxes all box joints. I like them better.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Mr.Beeman said:


> I've tried both and found the rabbet joints tend to warp at the corners even though I glue AND nail.


But how do you cut out the sides. Do you mean cup when you say warp? If the boards aren't installed, cupping will do what you say, at the corners. When cutting out the boards for each side, when using rabbeted joints, the annular rings must be on the correct side. Because a board will always cup away from the center of a tree, the board is installed with the center of the tree toward the outside of the box. Then, when the board cups, they cup into the box and not away from the box. So the corners stay tight.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> But how do you cut out the sides. Do you mean cup when you say warp? If the boards aren't installed, cupping will do what you say, at the corners. When cutting out the boards for each side, when using rabbeted joints, the annular rings must be on the correct side. Because a board will always cup away from the center of a tree, the board is installed with the center of the tree toward the outside of the box. Then, when the board cups, they cup into the box and not away from the box. So the corners stay tight.


This is so very important, yet so little known, or followed! I have seen even glued box or finger jointed hive bodies splayed out top and bottom because the wood was not oriented.


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

Saltybee said:


> For those using a router for rabbet. Wouldn't a drawer lock bit make a stronger joint with less of a cut? Same end grain exposure. Miter lock is basically a drawer lock with a 45 extension rather than a 90.


Yes, but my same comment applies that I mentioned relative to the lock miter...unless the material you're using is perfectly flat, it can be a little bit of an exercise to use these cutters and assemble the box. Non-flat lumber will result in many impressive bad words...


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

minz said:


> Here is a good thread on Rabbets Vs fingers (good since I had something not a wise crack to say)
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...et-Joint-Hive-box-quality&p=805027#post805027
> Wood magazine issue 181 on the torture test of joints (page 68) shows that the rabbet has a pull apart strength of 1329 lbs and shear strength of 73 lbs (with 3 nails). Box joint 2019 LBS, shear 84 lbs (no nails recommends number 18 brads for the edges of the fingers). The locking miter came in at a respectable 1899 lbs pull apart and 141lbs for shear. (I just got the Wood magazine first 200 magazines on CD and just thought I would brag).


This pretty much says it all. Side by side, the box joint is stronger, unless (for shear) you can find flat enough wood to cut locking miter joints that fit - & good luck with that!


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

Yes, the _WOOD Magazine_ testing is pretty illustrative of the relative strength of these joint types. That said, for those of us making our own woodenware for beekeeping, "relative" comes into play. For hobbyists who do not move things around a lot, a properly glued rabbit joint with metallic fasteners may very well be durable enough to do the job for a long time and they are quick and reasonably easy to make. For folks with larger operations, even for hobby use, the box joints are likely a much better choice and worth the investment of time, etc., to have a proper box joint jig setup, since it's more likely that these boxes are going to get "slinged around" more over time.


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## Armstrong and Family (Dec 24, 2016)

In my opinion, finger joints are the way to go. We us finger joints on all of our boxes, and assembly them with glue screws, and ring shank /spiral nails. A lot of people like the common 6d nails, but they will work out over time with use. The joint is important, but making sure they are properly assembled, and painted is just as important.

What do you folks think about material? We use poplar for all of our boxes, and locust for the bottom boards, and are very happy with them.

Robbie


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

> Wood magazine issue 181 on the torture test of joints (page 68) shows that the rabbet has a pull apart strength of 1329 lbs and shear strength of 73 lbs (with 3 nails). Box joint 2019 LBS, shear 84 lbs (no nails recommends number 18 brads for the edges of the fingers). The locking miter came in at a respectable 1899 lbs pull apart and 141lbs for shear. (I just got the Wood magazine first 200 magazines on CD and just thought I would brag).


If I expose my boxes to that level of stress, whatever joint it might be, I should fire myself.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I haven't dropped a LOT of supers full of honey (very few, actually), but THAT'S what divides the rabbets from the box joints! (pun intended). 

Box joints hold, rabbets explode :lpf:


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## Little boy blue (Dec 13, 2016)

I make all my boxes using dovetail joints on the router table, they are quick, strong and have a greater hold than any other joint and you don't need as many, but I don't glue, only screw, so the timber can move and breath with the seasons.

I like to do dovetails and bee different.


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## BaK (Jul 24, 2015)

ethanhogan said:


> Dansar do you cut a 3/4in rabbit to make the side boards fit flush? Or any one else for that matter that uses the rabbet joint


That is exactly the way I build wooden ware. 3/4 inch rabbet, and with clamps, even crappy wood will sit flush. Glue and screw, and life is good. Lots quicker than the box joints and have been holding up very well.


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