# Dead hive, mites?



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I think that varroa mites are currently the single largest threat to honey bees in North America. I also think that its hard to dispute that.


When someone starts a thread like ..."What do you think happened to my hive?" etc ... and omits any mention of mites in their description of the situation (and quite often _not _ offering any photos either), its _not surprising_ that Beesource members ask what the OP was doing about varroa mites. 

Can there be other circumstances leading to the demise of a hive? Of course! But why not ask about the most prominent threat first? :scratch:


opcorn:


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Mites are definately part of the problem. Usually its a combination of things. Poor buildup, problem queen,genetics, poor diet. In nature things die, it happens, its natural.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Depends on when the hive dies out. Late fall/early winter with lots of stores, suddenly no bees, no treatments, likely it's mites because otherwise the hive would be OK as a rule (although not always).

Active hive late winter, dead late spring, not enough stores is the usual cause, either protein or honey or both. I've nearly lost a big hive to starvation in late Feb, and my brother lost one last year, big cluster and not a single cell of honey anywhere. 

But typically losing a hive early in the winter is a mite problem, it's when failure to control them causes the most hive loses.

So I ask when I don't get any information from someone who lost a hive: Did you treat for mites, or at least do a count? Was the hive heavy, lots of honey or not. Is there any pollen in there? Mite frass in brood cells? Big pile of wet moldy bees? And so forth. The point is to determine why the hive failed to survive, not browbeat people.

I have not lost a hive to mites, but my brother did (after seven years of the same hive doing pretty well), and I now plan to treat every year in the dearth and more if necessary. I'll let other people lose lots of hives getting "treatment free" bees for the time being.

Peter


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

No, no, no, NO, it was mites!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

When hives are lost during winter, provided housing was OK and food supplies were OK, the overwhelming majority are lost from one of 2 causes, either mites, or the hive went queenless after it was too late for the colony to get a new queen mated. 

When someone through winter says - my bees all died even though they were 1/8th inch away from honey, - it's odds on it was mites, or queenlessness.

But even mid winter queenlessness is DWV related and therefore mite related but not necessarily at the same time. That is my belief because I kept bees for many years before mites and queen loss in winter was extremely rare and I mean one hive out of many hundreds, if even that. Since mites, I lose seemingly good queens through winter regularly. This peaked when I went through my TF phase, which meant some apiaries were not treated at all, and the rest only if really needed. The result was high mite levels and high DWV levels, and large increase in queen problems. I had lab tests done and found high levels of DWV in the queens, and this persisted for maybe a couple years after I gave up on TF and hit mite levels hard. The infested queens stayed infested till they were replaced, and even the supersedure queens had high levels of DWV passed to them by their mother in the egg. Hives with extremely high DWV levels were superseding every few months, and going queenless if they tried it in winter when there were no drones. Even after re starting an effective mite control program, as far as DWV it took a long time to clean up.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> But even mid winter queenlessness is DWV related and therefore mite related but not necessarily at the same time. That is my belief because I kept bees for many years before mites and queen loss in winter was extremely rare and I mean one hive out of many hundreds, if even that. Since mites, I lose seemingly good queens through winter regularly. This peaked when I went through my TF phase, which meant some apiaries were not treated at all, and the rest only if really needed. The result was high mite levels and high DWV levels, and large increase in queen problems. I had lab tests done and found high levels of DWV in the queens, and this persisted for maybe a couple years after I gave up on TF and hit mite levels hard. The infested queens stayed infested till they were replaced, and even the supersedure queens had high levels of DWV passed to them by their mother in the egg. Hives with extremely high DWV levels were superseding every few months, and going queenless if they tried it in winter when there were no drones. Even after re starting an effective mite control program, as far as DWV it took a long time to clean up.


Very interesting this point. Thank you Oldtimer for your data.

" […] Independently of the mite , inapparent ( covert ) DWV infections can be vertically transmitted via honey bee eggs ( Chen et al ., 2004; . Yue et al , 2007) , sperm ( Miranda and Fries , 2008) and larval food ( Chen et al . , 2006),[…] "

source: _Prevalence and persistence of deformed wing virus ( DWV ) in untreated or acaricide -treated Varroa destructor
infested honey bee ( Apis mellifera ) colonies_, 2009


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hey thanks for the reference Eduardo, I'm hopeless at knowing where to find them. 

Yes sperm and larval food are 2 other vectors that need considering.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Oldtimer, this is the link to access the abstract and free access to the paper .

https://www.researchgate.net/public...or_infested_honey_bee_Apis_mellifera_colonies


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Oldtimer, this is the link to access the abstract and free access to the paper .
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/public...or_infested_honey_bee_Apis_mellifera_colonies


Eduardo; Thanks very much for linking to this article. I think this effect may be behind many problems that get dismissed as "bad luck"! Of interest too is the growing incidence of more aggressive forms of the DWV. The presence of DWV (or the particular strain) in a geographic area may be a very big part of how vigilant of mites a person has to be for good overwintering success.

Despite a few people trying to put a guilt trip on beekeepers for presuming varroa mites to be the prime villain, I think a much higher percentage of those beekeepers continue to be beekeepers rather than authors of sad tales of dead bees! I pay more attention to overall numbers rather than outlier exceptions.


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## BeeBop (Apr 23, 2015)




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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

It's a game of odds, that's why, and betting on 'red' is a good choice for why seemingly booming hives are void of bees 2 weeks later in the winter... Also, I speak a lot from personal experience. I've never had a hive make it to winter and be lost that wasn't mite related and it comes as no surprise to me as the signs are easy to see coming before it happens. To your point though, how many of these stories start off with, "I monitored mite levels through out summer, treated appropriately before fall brood was in production and went into fall with low mite counts...." I would say, all of "not very many" stories start this way on 'lost my hive(s)' threads that are running rampant now. Most start off with how the bees were looking so great and they wanted to be treatment free....... or I treated in September (late) and none really tell the story of the hive on what the brood pattern looked like going into fall/winter and how many frames of bees they actually had when they noticed 'some bees were flying a few weeks ago' because I wouldn't be surprised what most people thought as good activity turned out to be a frame or less of bees on their way out. More to the point though, most of the stories lack enough detail to prove it was something else more or less, and people don't know how to properly convey the number of bees that they find left in the hive, dead or alive. They use terms like, I found a lot of dead bees, the bottom board was covered in dead bees, but then you look at the picture and it's like a couple hundred dead bees at most, which isn't really that many, less than a frame of bees...

Beebop, I was hoping to find that exact same caption!


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Colony collapse over winter could be caused by a build up of many things like mites, systemic pesticide buildup that effects brood or the queen, moisture, long periods of cold, starvation you name it. Systemic pesticides are my biggest fear. I can control the mites.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

kengineer said:


> I am interested in what others think.


How many colonies have to die out because of MITES before guys like you realize it's a serious problem?
How many beekeepers with 10, 20, 30, 40 even 50 years working with bees have to describe what a dead out due to mites and
mite vectored viruses looks like before some people finally-get it-?
Your points about moisture, wrapping (many don't, include me), another issue (like starvation?) are all part of the process one should work through to determine cause. And they are simple to eliminate. 
If the opinions of others bothers you so much maybe with your infinite wisdom you could develop a check list for those
who have trouble believing MITES are a real and deadly issue to use when examining their dead colonies in the fall and winter.
Then we won't have to read "they're all dead what happened?" anymore.
And BTW I'll bet you'll be using one of those vaporizers in the near future, if you haven't already.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)




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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm never to hard on mite deniers. They are taking what they think is a principled stand.

Their problem is that before they knew anything about bees they were told by "authority figures" that they should not treat for mites, and as such need not monitor them either. In fact they were told to "let the bees deal with it", because putting chemicals in a hive is not only harmful, but wrong morally and ethically, no proper citizen of the world would do such a thing. The effect of this is added to when they join one of those web sites whose members mostly don't know much but exert incredible peer pressure by forming baying mobs that stridently shout down any notion of treating their bees, mostly quoting dodgy studies and 1/2 truths. Few of the members of these groups have been around long but they do create tremendous peer pressure, plus a feeling of "belonging" if you follow the party line.

Then the persons hive dies in winter. The hive is well build, watertight, and in good shape plus there is food and the bees are right next to it. 

But, Couldn't be mites, just couldn't!! cos 1. they never saw any and 2. this contradicts everything they have ever been told by all the people they trust. They believe mites are just for those evil chemical addled commercial beekeepers with weak genetics.

So, when they come and ask about their dead hive they either say nothing about mites, or say they know it wasn't mites. To then be confronted by someone saying it likely was mites, is just too flying in the face of everything they "know", to be true. So, conflict may ensue.

Me, I talk to these folks and try to gently inject some reality, but don't argue. Cos it's over to them to accept or reject and they are probably principled individuals doing what they have been told is right. Some of them can be saved from further heartbreak and financial loss, but some will just do it all over again. Frustrating for those of us who see all this play out, but sometimes experience personally, over several seasons, is the best way for a person to learn.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

kengineer said:


> Should we appoint several members to instantly name the problem with every hive that dies to be mites?


We ought to do that. At the same time we ought to appoint several members to insist that it was anything but mites... candidates such as CCD and nosema ceranae....things that are extremely unlikely but have the caveat of not being anything the beekeeper could prevent...ignoring even the most glaring evidence.....and denying the most likely culprit. 
Good idea.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> I'm never to hard on mite deniers. They are taking what they think is a principled stand.


Oldtimer....thanks for all that. I've not been beekeeping very long, but this is a great description of what I've encountered as well. I wish there was an upvote button on here.


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## kengineer (Jul 4, 2015)

Not a mite denier.

I have a vaporizer. 

I lost a hive last year but not for lack of treatment.

A friend lost three this year, also not for lack of treatment. 

I was just interested to know if anyone thought that the pendulum had swung too far to the "IT MUST BE MITES" side. 

I like the idea of an expert (not me) developing a checklist for a dead hive, as long as the first item is not 1) Declare it must have been mites and move on smartly.

I like fact based decisions, I think everyone does. 

If anyone was enough of an expert to put together a checklist, it would be a constructive turn in this post, isn't that why we are here? 

I will offer the first checklist question: what was the configuration of the hive? (EXAMPLE, 2 deep or 3 mediums or...)


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Did you ever call one of the technical help lines and were asked " Is the unit plugged in "? I guess they go through a check list from the statistically most likely and easily fixed toward the more exotic. That process has advantages. It is also a bit insulting to those relatively good at eliminating the obvious (or who think they are). I dont know if there is any good way to avoid that feeling. Perhaps the onus is on the one calling to establish up front that they have indeed eliminated the most likely causes. Is it indeed correct that the most likely cause of colony death is connected to varroa mites? If that is so, where is the beef?


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## kengineer (Jul 4, 2015)

In the spirit of developing a "dead hive checklist" (although I am no expert) I have suggested the first question:

1) What was the configuration of the hive? (EXAMPLE, 2 deep or 3 mediums or...) 

Now the second, (others, feel free to pipe in with any useful questions that may be applied to help diagnose dead hives for novices to learn and grow into world class beekeepers like the experts who post here) 

2) What was the local climate for the week proceeding the dead hive discovery (Temp humidity, any precipitation?)

If we work on this a project, it could develop into a self diagnosing tool that may help beekeepers prevent loss or learn from others losses. Wouldn't that be a really cool thing and make our time here valuable to others? 

Does anyone have a #3 question to ask about a dead out? I am thinking about trying to establish the facts surrounding the dead out kind of a forensics investigation as opposed to, I know it was mites..... It may be mites, but let's let the truth set us free.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i like your idea of the checklist.

#3. how many dead bees are there and where are they located, i.e. on the bottom board, head first in comb, frozen in a cluster?


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## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Remaining stores/ weight of hive,


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

#5? When/if Did you treat & with what?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Is there any capped or uncapped brood. If capped brood present is there a pattern of perforated caps.


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## kengineer (Jul 4, 2015)

OK team, now we are cooking, everything is negotiable, but here is a first draft: 

1) What was the configuration of the hive? (EXAMPLE, 2 deep or 3 mediums or...)

2) What was the local climate for the week proceeding the dead hive discovery (Temp humidity, any precipitation?)

3) What were the remaining stores/ weight of hive, (if you know) 

4) Did you treat for anything? 

5) When/if Did you treat & with what? 

6) Is there any capped or uncapped brood. If capped brood present is there a pattern of perforated caps. 

7) What do the bee carcasses look like, are there any? Are they moldy? Wet? Deformed wings?

8) When they were last alive were they speaking in tongues.

9) What details make the bees or dead bees different from when they were alive? 

10) Were they moon walking?

TAKE THIS AS A LIST OF DUMB QUESTIONS WE NEED TO KNOW BEFORE WE CAN START TO GUESS WHY YOUR BEES DIED. 

Keep this moving, think Quincy, what do we need? 

Keep asking questions.

I live in the tundra, so I want to know how you protected your babies from the cold. Others may want to know other things, lets keep this fluid, if you have a question to ask a beekeeper that just lost their pets, what would it be? 

Remembering that it should drive to discover how to prevent another hive loss, or explain the mistake that caused good bees to go bad.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

was the queen found?

if capped brood present, was it a gooey mess, did it have deformed wings or stunted abdomens?

mites present on the bottom board?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Is there signs of robbing ie. ragged torn cells?

Is there signs of wax moth damage or hive beetles?

A good post mortem check off list could save a lot of dialogue. Maybe it could be a "sticky"


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

What was your mite count by an alcohol wash last July 15 in mites per 100 bees? How about Sept 1?

During summer at any time did you look carefully for bees crawling on the ground up to 50 feet from the hive unable to fly? How many did you see - over 50, a few or rare like two or three all summer? Did any of those bees have deformed wings or K wings? Did any of those bees have half sized abdomens. Did any of those bees have torn or tattered wings? If you saw such crawlers what was the ratio of normal appearance to deformed or K wings to half sized abdomens to tattered or torn wings?

Was the queen laying a good egg pattern the last time you saw eggs?

Was the larva pattern good the last time you saw larva?

Was the capped brood uniform or were there a lot of blanks or relaid eggs or larva scattered in the capped brood the last time you saw capped brood?


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## HillBilly2 (Jul 26, 2015)

Do you know how to turn a frame away from you with the sun at your back to see mite crap inside the cells? Was there any?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong questions.. You only need one question.... What are you going to do differently this year to control them mites????????????????????


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

kengineer,
What I look for when a colony dies is, Is there any sign of AFB? If not, I use it and don't care all that much why it died. When I am looking for signs of AFB I can see if the colony went drone layer by the drone cells scattered among the worker cells.

Other than curiosity, as long as nothing contagious is present, I don't worry about what killed the colony. Because I am already doing what I can to control the things I can.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

kengineer said:


> OK team, now we are cooking, everything is negotiable, but here is a first draft:
> 
> 1) What was the configuration of the hive? (EXAMPLE, 2 deep or 3 mediums or...)
> 
> ...


First question: Any sign of AFB? No? Move onto the next hive.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't worry about what killed the colony..... I am already doing what I can to control the things I can.


Groan.....
I'm sure you're a smarter, better beekeeper than I am....but.....
I'm also pretty sure my mite related losses would be double today what they were a decade ago if I hadn't given those deadouts a good look-see and made changes.
My vote is for a good inspection...nothing fanatical but a careful, open minded look.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Or we could try and get to the facts, and make suggestions based on facts.

Who needs facts when you can blame mites?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> Who needs facts when you can blame mites?


Or...who needs facts when you can insist it was anything but mites?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think you'll find I usually recommend looking for evidence of Varroa mites first thing. It is the most likely cause of their demise in late fall and early winter. However it is NOT the only possible cause and looking for facts is so much more elucidating than assumptions.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> I think you'll find I usually recommend looking for evidence of Varroa mites first thing.


What makes you think I was referring to you?
I agree...looking for facts is the only way to know....which is why I always first ask...what were your mite counts? or did you test for mites? or something along those lines.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I have no feud with beemandan. I don't think people should do what I do. I am only saying what I do and why. 

My point is, in an era when mites rule the day, as long as the equipment isn't contaminated by disease, AFB, if mites killed the colony, they are dead and are not going to do any more harm. So as long as I don't see any sign of AFB, I, underlined, I, I don't care what killed the colony. Unless I am evaluating what I did wrong.

After varroa mites, what kills most colonies of honeybees is BEEKEEPERS. And our ignorance. when something goes wrong in my outfit, I blame the manager. Not mites, not neonics, the manager.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> I think you'll find I usually recommend looking for evidence of Varroa mites first thing.


Such as?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> I blame the manager. Not mites, not neonics, the manager.


Me too. And in all but the rarest instance, in my personal experience....the blame was properly placed.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Such as?


If my memory serves me....the objective test protocol is....if one doesn't find thousands of dead mites on the bottom board....it was something else.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

"Blaming the Manager" is exactly what allowed for my skill to grow by leaps and bounds. Just me - and I blamed myself for every failed colony and asked, "What could I have done differently." I reconsidered how I fed, what I fed, when I split, if I treated, my source of queens, yard density, ventilation. While we see some late season queen failures, rob outs, starve outs, disease and dumb beekeeper decisions for colony failures, my initial presumption is always that mites are the issue. 

While I have not definitively ruled out CCD, Absconding and Alien Abduction - focusing on factors within my control seemed to have greatly reduce my losses. I also consider them as livestock and not "pets" so pinching a queen is just culling the herd.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What makes you think I was referring to you?

Of course you weren't. You never are. How silly of me.

>Such as?

I would look at the bottom board for dead Varroa and look in the brood comb for Varroa feces.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And once you find dead mites on the bottom board and/or feces (some people have sharper eyes than others, I must assume) what does that tell you?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

beemandan said:


> If my memory serves me....the objective test protocol is....if one doesn't find thousands of dead mites on the bottom board....it was something else.


Ha, that rings a few bells, I have heard that one more than once.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>And once you find dead mites on the bottom board and/or feces (some people have sharper eyes than others, I must assume) what does that tell you?

A lot of dead Varroa mites and a lot of feces (clusters in most cells) would tell me they probably died as a result of Varroa mites.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not virus(es)?


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## kengineer (Jul 4, 2015)

1) What was the configuration of the hive? (EXAMPLE, 2 deep or 3 mediums or...)

2) What was the local climate for the week proceeding the dead hive discovery (Temp humidity, any precipitation?)

3) What were the remaining stores/ weight of hive, (if you know) 

4) Did you treat for anything? 

5) When/if Did you treat & with what? 

6) Is there any capped or uncapped brood. If capped brood present is there a pattern of perforated caps. 

7) What do the bee carcasses look like, are there any? Are they moldy? Wet? Deformed wings?

8) When they were last alive were they speaking in tongues.

9) What details make the bees or dead bees different from when they were alive? 

10) Were they moon walking?

11) Was the queen found?

12) If capped brood present, was it a gooey mess, did it have deformed wings or stunted abdomens?

13) Were mites present on the bottom board? 

14) Is there signs of robbing ie. ragged torn cells?

15) Is there signs of wax moth damage or hive beetles?

16) Do you have any data on recent mite count?

17) During summer did you see bees crawling on the ground unable to fly? 

18) Was the queen laying a good egg pattern the last time you saw eggs?

19) Was the larva pattern good the last time you saw larva?

20) Was the capped brood uniform or were there a lot of blanks or relaid eggs or larva scattered in the capped brood the last time you saw capped brood? 

There probably needs to be questions about recent pesticide, something about the signs of foulbrood, but if we only ask "do you see foulbrood" without asking about symptoms maybe smell or mushy brood or ?(not expert, don't know but can learn)? 

If it was easy to understand why a novice keepers hive died as it is made out to be, we would all be experts, but many of us hope to learn from experts.

I am trying to develop a list of questions that experts could use to help novices prevent mistakes that spoil bees. There must be a million more. Someone test drive the questions and see where it is missing information needed to diagnose issues. 

This could be a helpful list of questions, some of the people with the most information seem to be bickering, lets move past that or at least move on. 


TAKE THIS AS A LIST OF DUMB QUESTIONS WE NEED TO KNOW BEFORE WE CAN START TO GUESS WHY YOUR BEES DIED.


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## DillardGA. (Jan 27, 2016)

My 2 cents Do as I was told 25yrs ago by mentor when I asked stupid questions Don't try to control nature just be glad your part of it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

kengineer,
It looks like you have a list of questions there, but none are "if this than they died from that". So I don't see a whole lot of point in asking about the configuration of the hive. How does that tell you what the colony died from?

And if you don't know what the signs of AFB are you will never know whether AFB caused the death or not. Learn what AFB is and what it looks like.

"There probably needs to be questions about recent pesticide, something about the signs of foulbrood, but if we only ask "do you see foulbrood" without asking about symptoms maybe smell or mushy brood or ?(not expert, don't know but can learn)? "

Recent pesticides? Whose? The beekeepers? What are the signs of pesticide use when it comes to a dead colony of bees?


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Here are all the questions you need. Answers to these questions will tell you if it was AFB, EFB, starved, starved because they ate themselves into a corner in winter and could not move to honey, or mites. The best you can do on pesticide kills is guess without lab testing. You will probably guess wrong and blame pesticides when it is really mites. That is what most hobbyists do.

1) What were the remaining stores/ weight of hive?

2) When did you treat & with what?

3) Is there any capped or uncapped brood. If capped brood present is there a pattern of perforated caps.

4) Is there signs of robbing ie. ragged torn cells?

5) Is there signs of wax moth damage or hive beetles?

6) What was your mite count by an alcohol wash on July 15 and September 1?

7) During summer did you see bees crawling on the ground unable to fly up to 50 feet from the hive? How many each time you looked carefully? What was the ratio of normal looking crawlers vs deformed or K wing crawlers vs mini abdomen crawlers vs torn or tattered wing crawlers?

8) Was the queen laying a good egg pattern the last time you saw eggs?

9) Was the larva pattern good the last time you saw larva?

10) Was the capped brood uniform or were there a lot of blanks or relaid eggs or larva scattered in the capped brood the last time you saw capped brood? 

11) Does any capped brood rope when you put a toothpick in it?

12) Was the cluster more or less intact on this dead hive with lots of dead bees head first in empty cells?

13) Is the dead cluster right next to open honey?

14) If the hive died in flying weather were there a thousand or more dead bees on the ground in front of the hive?


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