# What type of bees are these?



## Blessed Farms (Jun 12, 2012)

My guess is just a mixed breed honey bee. I had pure Italians until a queen was superceded and now half my hive is colored as those.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Alot of my Carni hybrids look like that.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I am almost certain that they are honey bees. Coloration and pattern are no longer strongly affiliated with genetic origins. Modern breeding can produce bees of nearly any color combination, despite the predominance of any particular subspecies used in the cross.


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## Tom Fran (May 18, 2010)

Joseph,

So I guess the gist of what you're saying is that a honey bee is a honey bee, since appearance basically doesn't mean anything anymore? So when you buy or sell bees, you just tell folks that they are honey bees?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

They can be derived from various genetic sources, they can be selected for assorted traits, but unless color is one of those traits selected for, they can all look the same, or they can each look different, it all depends on the breeder. No, I'm not saying that all honey bees are just honey bees, what I'm saying is you can't depend on their outward appearance to identify them, definitively.

In other words you can develop honey bees, predominantly derived from Caucasian stock (known to have a grayish coloration), but cross them with a light brown colored bee, then select for the lighter color, combined with other traits, known to be associated with the Caucasian, until you have a light brown honey bee, that is in all other ways, a Caucasian (it just doesn't look like a Caucasian, anymore).


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## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

Old robbing bees.


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## Tom Fran (May 18, 2010)

Thanks, Joseph for the helpful information.

I have people ask me occasionally what kind of bees I have, and I tell them I believe they are Italians. I guess it's not so simple from what you've said.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Fortunately, most breeders, I believe, try to maintain traditional colorations, already associated with particular races of honey bee, when they select for other desirable traits in their production queens. So, most honey bees, derived from _Apis mellifera ligustica_ (Italian), will still look like an Italian, and the same for Caucasian or Carniolan.

One of the more interesting twists, is with the use of the Cordovan trait. It is a recessive trait that suppresses dark pigmentation of the honey bee exoskeleton. But, is only expressed in workers when both the mother queen and drone father both contribute the gene to their workers, of course, drones only have one set of genes, so if they carry it, it will be expressed. The Cordovan trait can be bred into any strain/race/breed of honey bee that can interbreed with _Apis mellifera_. It lightens the color of each breeds exoskeleton, but is more noticeable with breeds that are already a lighter color.


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## A_Bee_Guy (May 27, 2012)

These bees, whatever they are, are overpowering my bees. I have tried to block the entrance, but they come right back as soon as I open up the entrance. Even with it reduced down to let just one bee in at a time, the bad guys are winning. They are just shoving their way into the hive like a bunch of bullies. This is the third day of the looting. I hate to block it completely because it's been in the 90's all week, but I am using SBB's, so that might help.


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## johns bees (Jan 25, 2009)

Hey I had the same problem but I fixed it by giving the robbers an open place to feed . I use a paint can punched holes in the lid with a thumb tack filled with sugar water placed it about a hundred yards from the robber hive and wait it takes a few hours but they find it and leave the weak hive alone. I forgot to mention I place two little sticks under the paint can to provide bee space so they can feed.


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## A_Bee_Guy (May 27, 2012)

John,

I have done some open feeding this year with frames that were harvested. I figured I'd let the bees lick them off, but then I noticed that it set off severe robbing in a few of my hives. So, because of that experience, I'm kind of hesitant to try open feeding again. I don't have a hundred yards to work with or it might work for me too. It's been a rough year for robbing.

Thanks for your advice though, I do appreciate it!


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Some of the variability you see is a result of multiple drone matings. I have bees in my hives that look like all those bees. They were supposed to be an Italian/Carniolan mix. Now, I have bees from open mated queens that superceded their mothers. 

I restricted entrances today with metal screening (hardware cloth). I cut it about an inch and a quarter by the length of the entrance (minus the opening I wanted)...Then, slipped it in the opening, allowing it to anchor on the top of the bottom board and the bottom of the hive body. Air circulates well and the entrance is restricted. HTH


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## A_Bee_Guy (May 27, 2012)

Thanks, Lee, for the great information. 

I've learned a lot from this posting! Thanks to all who contributed!


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## Ozone (May 24, 2011)

Lburou said:


> Some of the variability you see is a result of multiple drone matings. I have bees in my hives that look like all those bees. They were supposed to be an Italian/Carniolan mix. Now, I have bees from open mated queens that superceded their mothers.


Check your 'genetics 101'. They don't need to supercede in order to show visual differences from open mating.


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## A_Bee_Guy (May 27, 2012)

Lburou said:


> I restricted entrances today with metal screening (hardware cloth). I cut it about an inch and a quarter by the length of the entrance (minus the opening I wanted)...Then, slipped it in the opening, allowing it to anchor on the top of the bottom board and the bottom of the hive body. Air circulates well and the entrance is restricted. HTH


Lee, 

How long do you leave your screen in place? Do you totally restrict entrance or leave enough room for 1 or 2 bees to enter / leave?

Thanks in advance!


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Bee Guy, I've reduced the entrance until I'm confident guard bees can successfully fight off bees intending to rob. That was an opening of about half an inch to an inch...Robbers were handily turned away with that opening on these hives.

Reducing the entrance is a time honored deterrent to robbing, its just that it is hot now and I wanted to insure adequate air circulation. Your results may vary. 

My hives are young, and as long as I'm concerened they can't turn away the robbers, I will leave the reduced entrances in place.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

1/8th inch or 1/4 inch hardware cloth?


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Gypsi, the holes have to be small enough to keep the bees from passing through....1/4 is too large, eighth inch would be fine. 

P.S. Bee Guy, reduce the entrance until the robbing stops. I used the hardware cloth because right now I do not have screened bottom boards. With your screened bottom boards, you can use wood. Don't know why I missed that in your post above.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Bee space is stated as 1/4" to 3/8" so to contain bees we have to use smaller mesh. But, even #6 mesh will allow some smaller bees through. The "cat's meow" is #7...but *very* hard to find. 1/8" is the common "stand-by".

A robber screen would help the robbing situation. They divert the colony bees to a different, smaller entrance that is several inches away (above usually) from the normal entrance. The robber bees don't readily figure this out and target the area where the hive's scent is coming from...naturally they can't get through the screen that is blocking the entrance hole. The colony bees coming out of the hive instinctively walk up the screen and find the entrance, they re-orient a little bit and begin using the "new" entrance....the robbers on the other hand (hopefully) give up and leave. The problem, from what I understand, is that the robber screen only works for a few days before one of the robbers stumbles upon the hidden entrance.

Here's some images to help explain it...
http://www.google.com/search?q=usin...pw.r_qf.&fp=c68b4559c0edcebd&biw=1152&bih=697

Ed


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Have you looked inside the hive and confirmed that they are robbing? Robbed honey comb is quite distinct. You don't mention any fighting so what makes you think they are robbing? Maybe your queen just started laying some eggs with sperm from a different drone and those are your bees trying to bring back forage.


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## A_Bee_Guy (May 27, 2012)

Keth Comollo said:


> Robbed honey comb is quite distinct. You don't mention any fighting so what makes you think they are robbing?


What is different about robbed comb? I have no idea what the difference would be.

And, your second point is also good. There are not a lot of dead bees out in front, but that might be because the hive is too weak to take on the onslaught of robbers. 

Thanks for weighing in here.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

This isn't a great photo since I got the sun angle wrong but you should be able to see it. This is a frame from a hive that got flooded in Hurricane Irene. Notice the brood comb (dark) and how the cells are nice and pretty. Then starting at my thumb and going to the top of the frame you will see where the honey was that got robbed out. The robbers shred the combs making it look like it was hit with a Cuisinart. A classic sign of robbing. If you don't see that I suspect you aren't getting robbed and would open up that entrance and put a super on.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm just putting up with traffic jams and keeping my entrances small for a couple of more days. We JUST got 2 inches of rain, coming out of drought and dearth, and this morning the bees are coming back loaded with pollen. Neither of my weak hives is actually weak, one just needs to go up to a 10 frame, at which point it will be weak, so I have some shuffling around to do in the bee yard, and I will gradually open up entrances as I determine who is strong enough to handle it. I have 2 really strong hives, "muscle bound". If there is flow, they would get bored and rob the smaller hives. Maybe. Beekeeping is local. Did you say whether you had a flow on?


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Disregard my comments about adding supers. I got this thread mixed up with another one.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Something with that coloration pattern is familiar to me... Anyone recall any other posts with bees looking exactly like that? I know I've seen something about it somewhere.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

hi, with many diffrent bee breed in my yard and monitoring the bees with actual robbing going on.looks like there not getting robbed with the photo your showing. since the bees are not getting attacked by the other bees in the pic.which they will do. your queen you have probably mated with the local drones mixture of german black bee i have some bees in my yard that look like those in the pic.monitor the outside of your hive, to see if some with those markings enter with pollen.or you can make a little sugar water and feed one on the outside of your hive and once it gets full see it it flys away or enters the hive.hope that helps


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## A_Bee_Guy (May 27, 2012)

A big THANKS to all the contributors on this post. I really learned a lot!


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