# Walt Wright's Ongoing CCD, Disappearing Disease, Fall Dwindling thread



## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Abuse of Bees By Commercial Beekeepers

As noted earlier, we all abuse our bees by using Langstroth equipment, but that's just the starting point for commercial operators. They stress their bees in many ways. One of the questions on the survey asks if they truck bees or make splits in the 30 days prior to losses. It would not surprise me if the survey shows a positive relationship between those actions and losses.

It's not that those actions affect the colony severely, but the sequencing time involved does. Have you not seen photos of a California "holding" yard for almond pollination? Hundreds of colonies, waiting for distribution in the groves, in a barren spot with no visible vegetation. That spot might support 10 to 50 colonies, but hundreds? Lets say we collect 500 colonies to equalize a truck load of colonies for pollination that meet the growers minimum requirements. We shuffle frames for a couple days, load 'em and head out. When we get there we set 'em off. If the bees don't work this particular crop for pollen, and they stay there 2+ weeks, that's more time without incoming pollen. Then load 'em up for transport to another location. That could easily total 4-6 weeks where the flight range vegetation would not support the high density colony count. And this takes place in that period of bee development when pollen foraging is a priority. In a decent area, with ample honey stores, 80% of the foragers would be bringing in pollen. Is it any wonder that at the next location they are pollen starved? Then, of course, we'll set them off in some other location where local vegetation can't possibly support colony density.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Is Walt not on the internet?

Keith


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

*Meeting with Mr. Hackenberg*

 I met with Dave Hackenberg at his place near West Milton, PA on Saturday, 2 June 07. He listened attentively while I described my approach to CCD. Then he launched into a two-hour tirade against the chemical companies that produce neonicotinoid plant systemic insecticides. Some of the stories were scary, but will not repeated here. Some were about the companies’ financial clout in neutralizing bad press with big bucks. That would be a valid concern, but for me it is single-source hearsay.

 He did say a few things of interest to my line of CCD investigation. For example: When the bees return from blueberry pollination, they are “pollen-starved.” (His words.) He puts them at corn fields to recover. Corn has abundant pollen. His contention was that the corn pollen was tainted with neonico and killed the bees.

 He also passed on another tidbit that I found very interesting. He said that colonies that used pollen substitute recovered. Those that would not use or “take” pollen substitute crashed. He made it sound like an “either/or” positive dividing line.

 In years past, my bees did not work corn for pollen very much. They might bring some, but it’s not one of their preferred sources.

 I left PA with the feeling that Mr. Hackenberg should accept some responsibility for the demise of his bees. If he let them get so desperate for pollen that they loaded up on corn pollen (even tainted with neonico) he needed to share the blame.

 I called a local, progressive farmer from Maryland to tell him I was on my way home and wanted to pick his brain on neonico when I get here. Paul Allen, over the years has offered more outyard locations than I could use. He farms rented scattered farms in the area in addition to his own. Paul tells a different story on the neonico hazard.

 He is sure that seed treatment dissipates in the first few inches of plant growth. He gave me two examples of crops needing additional insect control in this season. Corn seed treated with Gaucho had a cut worm problem when the corn was less than 8 inches tall. Cotton had a problem with thrips when it was even shorter. Thrips feed on plant juices. He sprayed for these pests very early in the growing season – well before either crop would be of interest to a honey bee. Does that make you wonder about the effects of neonico as the plants get larger?


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

*Recruit Support*

To All

 Anybody want to go along on this snipe hunt? Snipes are hard to locate and it might be an arduous pursuit. If you keep bees, you might qualify.

 I could use some help from a local in an area that has experienced CCD in the last two years. If he or she has knowledge of area pollen sources, or knows an old-timer in the area that might have the info we need, that would be ideal.

 To compare the bees development schedule to conditions, we’ll need the main flow start date. That sounds easy, but it’s amazing how many beekeepers can’t tell you to the nearest week when it starts. It would seem that there should be some advance preparation to be ready when it does. I guess that’s not necessarily so.

 Reminds me of an earlier appeal for help on an enquiry. The first article that appeared in ABJ on CB identified some observations and appealed for help from readers. Heard from nobody – not a peep. Plodded on without help. I can do that again, but I’d rather not. Of course, if it turns out badly, we share “goat” status, a la Charlie Brown.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

*A Position Statement*

 A position statement seems appropriate at this stage of the CCD investigation. I have been denied active participation in the “team” effort to uncover the cause of the problem. That does not surprise me. In years of volunteering to support problem investigations within the NASA framework, there has been no group that thought they needed any help. Several times I branched to a quiet corner and solved the problem independently. The group responsible didn’t even say thank you, but they were glad to get off the hook.

 I see the current investigation efforts as concentrating on symptoms. We need to get more basic than that. The symptoms vary by time and place. To address variation in symptoms will stretch investigation time and expense, and not likely identify the actual cause. 

 Off in the corner again, I propose to seek a more basic cause. And what if I’m 180 out – dead wrong. No harm done. Beekeepers will have been exposed to a colony need that has long been ignored. Too long!

 The elements of my off–line investigation follow:

A. One area where fall dwindle was seen will be selected for review of possible weather impact on forage for that location. Historical climatological data for that area, of temperature and rainfall, as a minimum, will be reviewed for impact on available vegetation.

B. Some insight on primary sources that the bees use in that area is required for an adequate review of impact. That input will be hard to find from here, but concentrating on pollen sources should narrow the selection.

C. Compare the above data to the bees development schedule. Some periods in their schedule create more impact than other periods.

D. Make a case for pollen shortage being the root cause of the fall dwindle that season.

The premises upon which the above approach is based follow:

1. We all abuse our bees by using Langstroth equipment. The break in functional comb between boxes gives the bees problems – one of which is sometimes failure to store pollen reserves in the early season.

2. Without that reserve, seasonal pollen shortages create more impact on colony nutrition.

3. The colony must rear replacement bees throughout the active season. Bees reared with substandard nutrition will be substandard bees.

4. Two times in the active season the colony must expand the brood volume to rear more than replacement bees: Late winter for both reproduction and restocking stores, and again in the fall to rear young bees for wintering.

5. Those fall young bees are the foragers for the late winter/early spring pollen gathering. (Conjecture) If that is true, there could be some carry-over effects from one season to the next.

That’s enough for now. Stay tuned to this channel periodically to see how this approach to the problem unfolds. And don’t be surprised if I change directions. In any trouble shooting situation, you need to learn from each step and be prepared to make adjustments.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Keith Benson said:


> Is Walt not on the internet?
> 
> Keith


Keith,

Just saw your post while posting and printing this stuff for Walt.

No, Walt is never on the internet. I am his son-in-law (hence the name). When I have time I monitor threads he is interested in and give him printouts to read. He lives across the street and visits once or twice a day. If he has replies he brings them to my daughter to type, and I post them the next time I am on.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Walts-son-in-law said:


> Keith,
> 
> Just saw your post while posting and printing this stuff for Walt.
> 
> No, Walt is never on the internet. I am his son-in-law (hence the name). When I have time I monitor threads he is interested in and give him printouts to read. He lives across the street and visits once or twice a day. If he has replies he brings them to my daughter to type, and I post them the next time I am on.


Hunh, seems inefficient. I get the feeling he is very tech savvy though. Fascinating. To each his own. I always look forward to his Bee Culture articles. He has a very unique way of looking at things, just the kind of thing an industry steeped in tradition can use now and again.

Keith


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Walt wrote,
>> As noted earlier, we all abuse our bees by using Langstroth equipment, but that's just the starting point for commercial operators. They stress their bees in many ways. 

Keith replies,

very very true


>> Have you not seen photos of a California "holding" yard for almond pollination? Hundreds of colonies, waiting for distribution in the groves, 

HA, your being nice.... Try, five to ten thounsand hives in holding yards.

Walt,
I have been talking about poor beekeeping management & nutrition as the main factor in this CCD problem here on beesource.

I have also pissed off alot of keepers in the prossess. I would sure like to hear from some of them now.

P.S I hear crows in season!


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

[/quote]Walt,
I have been talking about poor beekeeping management & nutrition as the main factor in this CCD problem here on beesource.

I have also pissed off alot of keepers in the prossess. I would sure like to hear from some of them now.

P.S I hear crows in season![/quote]

Keith,

i am sure Walt would love to discuss this with you and to read your past posts. Post links to those posts here so others will realize Walt is not just a 'voice in the darkness'?


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

*How to subscribe*

notaclue,

This is a reply to a PM that I thought might be of general use.

As far as I know, the only way to subscribe to a thread is to post a reply to it(if anyone knows of another way, please post it). If you will use the 'Post Reply' button rather than typing in the 'Quick Reply' area a new screnn will appear for your reply. At the bottom of this screen is a pull down menu called 'thread subscription' with several options. One of those is 'Instant email notification'. This can be a bit anoying if the thread is very active and you may want to opt for 'Daily email notification' instead.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Walt,

In the Oct 06 issue, ABJ pg 842 & 843 I show how I feed pollen sub in the fall thru winter.

Some called me a nut for feeding so much pollen sub (15-20 pounds per hive).

In the march 07 issue pg 179, I show the finished product of heavy pollen sub feeding.

Funny thing, nobody was calling me a nut in late Jan, when the photo was taken, with twenty plus frames of bees.

Keith


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

Just read thread . My thoughts. Is corn pollen high in protien and amino acids? I keep hearing of collapsed colonies with lots of pollen stored. Is it any good. We really need a data base listing all our main pollens and their nutritional levels. As for feeding pollen, the time to start is Aug 15 if you are in a poor pollen region. Also have your mites under control by Sept 1 so your hive can produce a good young population befor winter.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

keith sezs:
Some called me a nut for feeding so much pollen sub (15-20 pounds per hive).

tecumseh replies:
first off keith I don't want you to suspect that this is any kind of personal criticism (just a simple observation and then a question) since I know that in the past our views on certain issues have diverged....

that a lot of pollen substitute and I would suspect that at that level you are feeding pollen at an economically unsustainable rate***. which lead me to my prime concerns which is.... what about the area in which you are located requires that level of pollen supplementation? 

I would suspect that the niche market in which you are located likely does allow this level of budgetary expense and this kind of practice would not be financially feasible in most markets.

***
cost is an extremely variable idea in that what you may or may not include can vary greatly.... cost of the bare input being one item, although certainly (at least in my experience) labor input can make the plus of the minus of this equation yield radically different answers.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

tecumseh sezs,
first off keith I don't want you to suspect that this is any kind of personal criticism (just a simple observation and then a question) since I know that in the past our views on certain issues have diverged....

Keith replies,
personal criticism, none taken Tecumseh, call me anything you want , just not late for dinner
Tecumseh, thats what make this place so great, differant veiws can be heard.

Tecumseh wrote,
that a lot of pollen substitute and I would suspect that at that level you are feeding pollen at an economically unsustainable rate***. which lead me to my prime concerns which is.... what about the area in which you are located requires that level of pollen supplementation? 

Keith replies,
Not really, I make my own pollen sub, my cost are $.50 pound. Now, you mention labor, good point, I put on about 7-10 pounds on at a time (serving). So my labor cost are the same as someone putting on a store bought one pound serving.

Tecumseh wrote,
I would suspect that the niche market in which you are located likely does allow this level of budgetary expense and this kind of practice would not be financially feasible in most markets.

Keith replies,
No niche market, just doing the math.

If we say we put on 20 pounds of pollen sub @ .50 we have ten dallors a hive for product costs with out labor.

Now if we spit 500 hives @ 150 (before almond pollination) we have an extra $75,000 GROSS. Then we have to take out queens @ $12 so all we have left is labor.

Now then, if we said increase has to be made up any way that cost is a push, But the labor cost for the application of pollen is not. But now, if we factor in the savings of the D.O. rate due to pollen feeding that works out to a push as well.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

keith sezs:
Not really, I make my own pollen sub, my cost are $.50 pound. Now, you mention labor, good point,

tecumseh ask:
perhaps you could pm me on how you formulate your pollen substitute..just trying not to go totally tangential on the topic at hand.

the way I personally view labor cost is per unit output (honey, nucs, spits or whatever) and less as a budgetary or price per hour unit item... you have done quite an excellent job of demonstating this concept.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

tecumseh said:


> keith sezs:
> Not really, I make my own pollen sub, my cost are $.50 pound. Now, you mention labor, good point,
> 
> tecumseh ask:
> ...


Keith

I'd be interested in your pollen sub reciepe too, if you don't mind sharing.


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## MABee (Jun 18, 2007)

Looks like I'm not the only one curious about the supplement recipe.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

notaclue

Thanks for the offer to join the snipe hunt. We likely will not see losses until later in the year. Am currently after data from 05 & 06. Should we have losses this year in our (yours and mine) belt of the Southeast, we’ll work that this winter. Thanks for the offer. I’ll put you on hold for a while. 

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Jim Fischer

 Thank you for straitening out us dummies.

 The entry on absconding was not intended to be the answer to CCD, but to give an example of weather impact on bee survival. And to provide the academic ineptitude in resolving such problems. I could have added that the ARS scientist that investigated that problem went back to his ivory tower with some theory about genetic mutation. It’s still reported as unresolved. Why look for an exotic answer, when indications support natural causes?

 Did you miss the part about “residual” problems? When I met with Maryann Frazier earlier this month at Penn St she mentioned that the queen is not always present. I told her that if my suspicions were correct, there could easily be some absconds mixed in the other symptoms. That would be a case of reverse proportions of failure mode from the Alabama case. 

 I’ll get back to your other inaccuracies another time.

 I was pleased that you mentioned a symptom that I didn’t know. Dickam’s article on the Florida activity in early ’07 was all I had to go on (nice job, Mr. Marron.) He didn’t mention the “largish brood volume” that you reference. Assuming that symptom is accurate, it supports my approach. We are not talking about bees reared on low quality pollen, we are talking about reared on no pollen. Try to keep up, Jimbo.

 If my hypothesis (previously reported as conjecture) is correct – that the bees can rear temporary bees without pollen, the effects fall into place.

 It was mentioned earlier that the three colonies that are accessible to me were expanding the brood nest much later in the season than normal. Would you consider that “largish?” Maintaining or expanding the brood nest volume might make sense if the colony is rearing short life or temporary bees. In the event that pollen becomes available, recovery might be quicker. With a ready and continuous supply of nurse bees they could turn out more able bodied bees in the shortest time. If they stop rearing bees altogether, they won’t have the nurse bees for the next brood cycle. Far fetched? Maybe! 

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

*Status Update - Late June*

 With only three colonies to access for monitoring effects of this wacko season, I am surprised at my good fortune. Two are slightly different and the third is vastly different. All show the strain of this season in different ways. The main flow was curtailed by drought. At present, we are 18 inches below normal rainfall for the year. It wasn’t bad enough to have a late freeze take out the pollen for build up, but then, the drought set in at the beginning of main flow. Sufficient rain up to the beginning produced excellent wild blackberry, white clover, and curly vetch to start. Blackberry ran it’s course, but the legumes browned out early, about the time I was leaving. When I got back, two weeks later, lawns and hayfields looked like winter – no green at all.

 Pollen substitute was ordered before I left – just in case. Came in while away. Elected to feed some last week – as much to see if they would use it as any other reason. Mixed up a batch with sugar water to apply. (Feed bee) Will have to report results, later.

 #2 was reported to have recovered from the pollen shortage before travel time to PA. #1 had not at that time. On return, # 1 was inspected for recovery. They had substantially more bees upstairs than before but had not achieved the production strength of # 2. Getting a late start, # 1 had gained almost no additional honey from the short flow. I consider that recovery from the pollen shortage, but too late to help much on winter honey storage.

 # 2 had added some honey overhead, but they had a larger brood volume than #1.

 # 3 has been different for the entire spring season. They emerged from winter super strong. What I would have called a “pacesetter” in years past. They remained strong through the awful spring season and had 4 or 5 partially filled supers of nectar overhead at the beginning of main flow.

 All three had been given a shallow of foundation at the top of the brood nest in anticipation of main flow start – running low on drawn comb. Will not go into the details, but all three used that foundation differently.

 # 3 promptly drew and filled their box of foundation and were given a second immediately above the first. And they continued filling the drawn comb overhead. At this time surplus in estimated in excess of 150 lbs in a lousy season. Point is: At no time in the spring season did they seem to be affected by the two months of little if any, field pollen. Strange, no? Write that off to genetic variability.

 Back to application of pollen substitute: It was applied in two three-inch panels, side to side, front and back, at the top of the brood nest. While at the brood nest level a second check of royal jelly (Is that what they are calling bee bread? Doesn’t look like any bread I know.) required very little extra effort. # 1 and # 2 had a small amount of “white stuff” in worker brood cells. I didn’t realize until checking # 3 just how meager the amount was. # 3 had a nice big dollop of it in young worker brood cells. More like what I’m accustomed to seeing. Would you like to guess what trick # 3 knows that 1 & 2 need to learn? Perhaps 1& 2 are rationing their resources?

 While at the brood nest level, checked 1 & 2 for reserve pollen consumption. There were a few empty cells now at the top of the pollen box, but they have used very little of the lower reserve so far. Earlier in the season, when pollen was plentiful, they had stored more long term pollen in the upper outside shoulders of the expansion dome than normal. That reserve pollen is now nearly depleted. Soon they will be dependent on the lower reserve.

 This update is likely more than you thought you wanted to know. But we have omitted some details in the interest of brevity. Really! If we can build a case of weather being a contributor to CCD, those details can be filled in later.

 Meanwhile the drought goes on. A light rain on the 19th unfurled the curls in Paul’s corn leaves, but that appears to be temporary relief. The corn is now tasselling at a stunted height, and no rain in sight. Did I mention somewhere earlier on this thread, or its predecessor, that you need to brace yourself for erratic weather? The bees prosper or fail on vegetation.

Walt


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

walt sezs:
At no time in the spring season did they seem to be affected by the two months of little if any, field pollen. Strange, no? Write that off to genetic variability.

tecumseh replies:
may I 'assume' that the three colonies in question are in northern Alabama***? If the answer is yes.... then Walt appears to be somewhat confused about genetic vs environmental effect. Secondly only if he collected pollen over several years at identical locations could he make ANY ACCURATE statement in regards to the QUANTITY of pollen collected this season at a paticular location. 

What I would suggest to Walt is that pollen yields from a variety of blooming trees does not vary dramatically from year to year no matter what the current season's rainfall. So what Walt is 'likely' observing is the variation from geography and not genetics. That is... if you relocated the same hives down to the monoculture conditions of the Tennessee or Mississippi River systems then rainfall conditions would dramatically influence pollen and nectar yields, but not so much in the foothill (non monoculture) of northern Alabama.

I am not certain what kind of brood response you might witness this time of year from feeding pollen. but if the hive is starved for pollen then I would assume some quantity and/or quality improvement in regards to the young bees reared. I am quite certain that feeding pollen during this season should produce a fine crop of small hive beetles (which is why I would likely never consider feeding pollen at this time of year).

***
you could make the same argument in any number of places where there are distinct geograpical area that we might generally classify as bottomland vs upland farming.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Tecumseh & Peggjam

Sorry this took so long, been out of town.

Pollen sub

50 lb Brewers @ $.49 24.50

20 lb dry egg york @.60 $12.00

88 lb syrup @.23 20.24

= $56.74 divided into 158 pound mix = .40 per pound
labor to mix $ .10 per pound.

It takes a little bit over an hour to mix ten batches which at .10 is over a hundred dollars an hour for my labor.

Also, the syrup mix will vary a little due to time of year, heat/cold ect...


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

thanks keith...

of what flavor is the syrup? hfcs, sugar water, corn syrup???

is the final product a bit like dough?


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Thanks Keith.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Tecumseh,

I use 77% soilds syrup, fructose/sucrose. Any of the bee supply houses have the specs. I like to use a blend to get the 77% rate.
The sweeter it is the better.Also, you may want to use more syrup in your mix to get the( pollen dough ) mix the way you would like it for handling.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Ok here goes my opinion. I usually have a surplus of pollen here in KY....In fact colonies get pollen bound. I had a WET 2006 with lots of pollen.....not alot of honey. Moved bees to Florida.....were on pepper flow with good pollen flow and many crashed of CCD. Now if there isnt a good pollen flow bees will back off brood rearing tehy are smarter in alot of was that we are! But by bees were not lacking pollen.....and if it were a lack of pollen why would that have lots of brood...perfect patterns ect? I ha hvive that looked great only to go back 5 days later an dhave ZERO bees or a handfull! That CCD is caused by a a lack of pollen/or good pollen in my opinion with 30 years of beekeeping is about as likely as hitting the lottery. If you read all of the other symptoms/ (in florida we had a lake with a 20x40 foot area of dead bees in water during a honey flow.....well that dont make sense... kinda sounds like the bees went bezerk. Any good luck on your research.....but I wouldnt bet a penny with 1,000 to 1 payoff it is lack of pollen!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

StuttonBeeMan,

Did you get a chance to pull test's for Tracheal, Nosema & of course Varroa??

What I find is that when some keepers find more than one D.O. they immediately assume it's this CCD, it seems to me their using this as a handicap.

Keith


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Our treachea counts very very low, my varroa level was also low....infact I's still not seeing much varroa. Hackenburg's varroa count on sugar roll was mostly ZERO to a few colonies with 1 or 2 mites. MY hives tested posative for nosema and nosema serona (sp) but not at high levels. Only 40% showed nosema at all. You to remember these hives had frames of perfect brood, were on a nectar flow and had lots os stored pollen.....and some went from 3-4 frames brood to no bees in 5 days!


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

also FYI....I fed liquid sugar ..... bees really turned it up.....really liked it to build colonies but from what i'm told they wont store it for winter food as well as HFC. Some sugars in HFC can weakon the bees immune system and if its heated much becomes even more toxic.  Sugar is much better for the bees!


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Waltssoninlaw

I'll have to take issue with you on blaming Mr. Hackenburg for letting his bees run out of pollen! First he happens to be one of the better beekeepers in the US. Second a commerical beekeeper cant check his bees daily for pollen....and weather can have a big effect. Running out of pollen could be easily corrected under normal conditions. Now if he let them fill up on neonicot tainted pollen....how the hell could anyone know that it was tainted???? Beekeepers have long had bees use corn pollen! To blame a beekeeper for letting his bees gather corn pollen that ended up being laced with a chemical that caused their demise is absurd....it cost him thousands of$$$$ Dont you think if anyone KNEW the pollen was bad they would have moved their bees??? But I guess if you have three hives you could check them daily perhaps hourly!....that is the same mentitality as a commerical guy checking each hive twice a week! Lack of pollen is not the cause.....bad pollen(insecticide laced) may quite well be the cause!


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

tecumseh said:


> walt sezs:
> 
> What I would suggest to Walt is that pollen yields from a variety of blooming trees does not vary dramatically from year to year no matter what the current season's rainfall. .


I don't know much about Alabama. But it seems to me that a hard freeze that knocks out the bloom will also knock out the pollen. 

Tecumseh I think you are saying that there are so many different trees that a freeze will not kill all of them. But it could. Or it could knock out enough so that there was a pollen shortage for some lengthy period.

And it doesn't always show up right away. For example, the Easter freeze we got has wiped out or severely damaged our raspberries this year. At the time of the freeze there was no bloom of course, just the stalks. But they had started to green up inside apparently because last year's canes never did squat. There is lots of good looking new growth. But the 2nd year canes are shot. Just one berry per cluster and real small.

So I guess I am still kind of thinking that there may be some relationship between pollen shortages / freezes or whatever and disappearing disease. If you look at the law on the books in Ohio, disappearing disease was listed as a bee disease back in the 1920's when the first passed the beekeeping laws. It seems to go in cycles.

I think it might be valuable to look for weather patterns that would / might affect pollen and see if there is any relationship. Are there historical records of disappearing disease? Of course back then there were no cell phones, no neonicotoids, no global warming, and no easy targets.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BerklyDavid wrote,
>Of course back then there were no cell phones, no neonicotoids, no global warming, and no easy targets.

Yeah, no easy targets, but now they have everything under the sun to blame it on.

P.S. 
Mr sutton,FYI, the beekeeper you keep mentioning has had mite problems according to the apairy inspector.
Check the CCD files here on Beesource.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Tecumseh

 With the exclusion of the personal slam, most of what you say on your posting of 27 June has merit. It’s just not relevant. The three colonies sit on the same pair of landscape timbers and have equal access to field forage. The intent of this thread is to chart the effects on colony survival in a season of reduced pollen availability in the early season.

 After the “Easter” freeze on the 5th and 6th of April there was NO pollen coming in. No history of any kind is needed to see bees arriving at the landing board with no pollen. They were not checked every day, but more like twice a week. The only reason I hedged on absolutely no pollen for six weeks was that I was out of town for nearly a week during wild blackberry peak. They will often use the dark pollen of blackberry if it has its own time slot, and this year it did lead the legumes by about a week. One last note – on no hive opening during that period was any current feed pollen seen. All the pollen seen was stored for long term, ugly with honey glazing. It’s still that way as of the end of June.

 The drought is also not relevant. Lack of rain just shortened the honey production period here. In more arid places like California drought might be a factor, but I can’t be everywhere this season. As feeding pollen substitute relates to the beetle, my exposure is limited. Although the beetle is distributed both north and south of me, I have yet to see my first one. Did get a scare three years ago. Corn beetles on my bee suit when getting back in the truck gave me some concern. They look like the SHB, without the paddle antenna. Had to take a crash course on the corn beetle. That year, like this one, Paul had corn in the field adjacent to the stand.

 The best defense against the SHB is to maintain strong colonies. If you have feeble colonies, your concern is valid.

 For the record: These three colonies are located about six miles north of the Ala/Tenn line in hill country. Steep hills are wooded in natural, native hardwoods. Less steep hillsides are pastured for beef cattle operations. River and creek bottoms are used for row crops – primarily corn, soybeans, and cotton. Since cotton takes a long season, we are in the northern fringe of the area that cotton is grown. Forty miles south in north Alabama cotton is king.

 Many of the local farmers are shifting to double-cropping wheat and soybeans. Soybeans are planted in the wheat stubble after the wheat harvest. Took a ride today on the dead-end road across the creek from the hives. Several hundred acres of potential soybeans – from unseeded stubble to beans approaching blooming size. The girls still have a chance to make some production.

 A tutorial on soybeans is out of place here, but the subject may not come up again, and some beginners may benefit from the info. All varieties of soybeans are not honey sources. The bees show little interest in working the white – blooming varieties. The purple – blooming varieties come in two types. One type (determinate?) grows to a given plant size and blooms and sets beans in a week. The bees barely have time to start working it in earnest, and its over. The other type starts blooming when the plant is quite small and blooms continuously (indeterminate?) through plant growth. That’s the variety that will add honey in the supers. My advice is to know the potential before you move colonies to a soybean field.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

ALA. DD Weather Data


 We promised you more info on the south Alabama climate data with respect to the Disappearing Disease of 2002. Charting the data has bogged down. The best we can do at this point is describe it.

 It is interesting that the temperature data is much like our late winter here this year. An extended, unusually warm period to get the vegetation started ahead of normal timing. Then, wham, a period of hard freeze to pinch back the premature growth.

 Specifically, the Montgomery daily high and low temps range above normal for the last half of Jan., near normal for most Feb, then the hammer falls. The last week of Feb. and the first week of Mar., when the normal low line is moving through 40 to 45, the recorded ‘02 lows plunge to 20 degrees and less, (hard freeze.) That’s enough to take out new plant growth on most species.

 If I slide my bee development schedule forward on the calendar (south) their bees would be in the early swarm prep period when suddenly there is no field forage. That’s the stage of colony development when they are striving for maximum, safe brood volume to accumulate swarm strength in numbers. Rough time to be completely abandoned by Mother Nature.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Mini update – June 28, 2007

 Having waited a week (6 days) since adding the Feed Bee, wanted to check consumption, only opened #1. They had not nibbled at it – they had devoured it. The only evidence that the pollen substitute had been there at all was some fragments of wax paper out front. Will likely give them another dose tomorrow.

 Pollen substitute in mid season? Unheard of! And these are colonies that have the advantage of a pollen reserve. It seems at this point that the “alert” was justified.

 One other note: It was reported earlier that my bees don’t take much interest in corn pollen. Watched the landing board traffic for two full minutes. Saw only one incoming pollen load, and it was the pale yellow of corn. She was probably reprimanded by the foraging supervisor for not knowing better. With hundreds of acres of corn in various stages of tassel within reach, this season is no different in that respect.

 They are bringing in nectar again – must have found a soybean field in bloom.

 Stay tuned.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Keith,

What commercial beekeeper hasnt had mite problems? However the person i'm referring to had treated for mites in Dec of 2005 using the new mite away pads with great successand low mite counts. He treated again in July.(not sure with what). But I do know that one yard he had his worst colllapse in was 1/2 mile from one yard of mine and there were FEW mites. I aslo know he treated again in late DEC of 2006 with mite away(formic acid pads) and when we had a cold spell in Feb and the bees evidentually used some stored pollen some more collapsed! My point above was not to attack anyone....just use common sence......If it were a lack of pollen there wouldnt bee all that brood! and to boot I had A WET summer with lots of pollen and when they collapsed there was a some pollen and nectar coming in. It just doenst make sence to me with 30 years ecxperience that a lack of pollen is the cause


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

> What commercial beekeeper hasnt had mite problems? 

This one, I have never lost more than 20% in over winter bees.

>However the person i'm referring to had treated for mites in Dec of 2005 using the new mite away pads with great successand low mite counts.

Treating in Dec, is like, closing the gate after all the cows are out.

>He treated again in July.(not sure with what). 

Take a look at. Walt Wright's take on CCD disappearing
6-17-07 post #21.


> I aslo know he treated again in late DEC of 2006 with mite away(formic acid pads) and when we had a cold spell in Feb and the bees evidentually used some stored pollen some more collapsed! 

Way way to late for treatments.Mites should be knocked down know later than Aug.

>just use common sence......

I'm looking for some of that here. Sure does not sound like good beekeeping from what I read.

>If it were a lack of pollen there wouldnt bee all that brood! 

Not true , what was the value of the pollen?


> It just doenst make sence to me with 30 years ecxperience that a lack of pollen is the cause.

30 years experience you say.... I think the last five years have been the most valuable.

Timing is the most critical in mite treatments, I dont see that here.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Keith...You got some things to learn about mites!!!!!! Yes it is critical to treat for mites in July/August to get healthy young bees going into winter. HOWEVER DID YOU KNOW BEES ARE BROODLESS IN DEC??????? Meaning ALL MITES are exposed to treatments!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I ALWAYS treat when I get to Florida in DEC. I am broodless and I get almost ALL MITES!!!! I am still having a hard time finding any now in July and I havent treated since DEC!This keeps them from building up to cause trouble!!! Like I said he treated in July meaning he knocked them down early! He consistantly does sugar rolls to check for mite counts! Also I had lots of rain last year....and lots of pollen.........just wait.......time will tell and my wager is on imiadcloprid! When my bees collapsed there was a good pollen flow on and nectar flow too.....in my opinion all tainted with neonicotineoids.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

I read post #21. Yes pollen and weather can effect buildup tremendously. However if bees starve........their heads are in cells, lots of dead bees on bottom board, if there is a shortage of pollen.....they simply dont build up. Even more importantly.....CCD is widespread......from Ca to Fl to PA. to WI , much differant weather patterns from point to point. and EVEN more important......and dont get mad........but you cant build a case to prove your point........a good researcher looks as ALL possiable causes and eliminates them one by one until you find the cause of the problem.......you cant have tunnell vision and look at one thing then try to prove it right.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

>Keith...You got some things to learn about mites!!!!!! 


Keith replies, OUCH.... ouch...... hey, give me a break, I'm just a rookie here.

> HOWEVER DID YOU KNOW BEES ARE BROODLESS IN DEC??????? Meaning ALL MITES are exposed to treatments!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I ALWAYS treat when I get to Florida in DEC.

Take a look at some of my bees in Jan .
http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_1435.jpg
http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_1432.jpg

At the lowest time of year (brooding) these bees will have about four frames of brood.

>I am broodless and I get almost ALL MITES!!!! 

There's one of your problems, old scarded up bees.

>Like I said he treated in July meaning he knocked them down early!

If you take a look at my good freind Randy Oliver chart in the march ABJ pg 220 it will show the mite theshold levels, Aug-Oct at there peak. Funny, you missed the most important months for treatment.

> He consistantly does sugar rolls to check for mite counts!

Not according to the inspectors. RE read my last post and follow it. Read the date of the post and you will see.What you read was the wrong post.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

BerkeyDave adds:
Tecumseh I think you are saying that there are so many different trees that a freeze will not kill all of them. But it could. Or it could knock out enough so that there was a pollen shortage for some lengthy period.

tecumseh replies:
what I am suggesting Dave is that most trees are a quite hardy in regards to late winter freeze (at least more so than flowering). even a peach tree will bloom (although the fruit will drop off quite early in the season). 

The Dave adds:
So I guess I am still kind of thinking that there may be some relationship between pollen shortages / freezes or whatever and disappearing disease. If you look at the law on the books in Ohio, disappearing disease was listed as a bee disease back in the 1920's when the first passed the beekeeping laws. It seems to go in cycles.

I think it might be valuable to look for weather patterns that would / might affect pollen and see if there is any relationship. 

tecumseh replies:
I would agree with you 100% here Dave. I too have suspected that a goodly portion of the 'problem' is cyclical and likely weather influenced.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

walt son in law adds:
With the exclusion of the personal slam, most of what you say on your posting of 27 June has merit. It’s just not relevant.

tecumseh replies:
well first I am not certain where you 'think' I may have dissed you in a previous reply (perhaps you might be so kind to point out my offending remarks????)... certainly was not my intention (and tecumseh most day endeavors at being direct).... futhermore what is or isn't relevant to this ccd problem thingee will most certainly be determined at 'some' later date when some conclusion or cause(s) is finally determined. what you are presenting here is pure hypothesis based on limited (number of data points) observation with absolutely NO geographical range. this TOTAL lack of science rigor is then translated to address some problem coast to coast. 

walt then sezs:
After the “Easter” freeze on the 5th and 6th of April there was NO pollen coming in.

tecumseh replies:
well this would seem reasonable, but was there pollen coming in two weeks later? there certainly was here and we had ice accumlated on everything and even a bit of snow. since we had excellent residual moisture in the ground the spring flowers sprang right back into action and as far as I could tell the flowering trees never faultered for longer than 2 or 3 days.

then walt adds:
The drought is also not relevant. 

tecumseh relies:
I think at this point walt has lost all credibility with myself... sorry about that walt (no soft serve slam intended) but anyone who might suggest that previous problem (historically) in regards to honeybees is not in some way related to length and duration of bloom (and yes the relationship of this to weather patterns) certainly has not been paying attention.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

keith sezs:
If you take a look at my good freind Randy Oliver chart in the march ABJ pg 220 it will show the mite theshold levels, Aug-Oct at there peak. Funny, you missed the most important months for treatment.

tecumseh replies:
this may be??? a seasonal variant where you are assuming that the season represented in California is exactly the same as the season represented in Florida. Having kept bees in one and observing them casually in the other I would suggest to you that the seasons in the two places are quite different.

at this point I am curious as to whether sutton bee man has experienced ccd directly or are his remarks based solely on the experience of an associate? whatever the case may be.... does suttonbee man know what type of program (antibotic) was used for afb prevention?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Tecumseh sezs,
> (and tecumseh most day endeavors at being direct).... 

Keith replies, nothing wrong with that at all. Cut out the fluff and get to the point. I like that approach.

BTW, Tecumseh, Aug-Oct treatments is most of the U.S., not just Calif.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Keith,

Really enjoyed your pics! I agree that mite levels usually peak about Aug. Thats why i try to treat in july/early august BEFORE they reach high levels. I live in KY and when I move bees to Florida in mid Dec they are broodless. I get a great kill! The bees in Fl come off orange straight to Ky for Locust/bush honeysuckle.......I dont have time to treat for mites in the middle and by treating when broodless I am not having a mite problem until I treat in July or early AUgust. THe key to mite control in my opinion is threefold........never NEVER let them get to the economic damage threshold and rotate treatments along with getting a good kill when you treat. Being broodless really helps get a high knockdown! However if you are in Ca of Fl....ya always got brood!


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

WE may also be talking about a differant beekeeper........I some know the hives (quite a few) had low mite counts as I was there when they were sugar rollled BEFORE they died.( this was after some others had collapsed and we were trying to figure out what was happening and were checking everything!


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

suttonbeeman said:


> I read post #21. Yes pollen and weather can effect buildup tremendously. However if bees starve........their heads are in cells, lots of dead bees on bottom board, if there is a shortage of pollen.....they simply dont build up. Even more importantly.....CCD is widespread......from Ca to Fl to PA. to WI , much differant weather patterns from point to point. and EVEN more important......and dont get mad........but you cant build a case to prove your point........a good researcher looks as ALL possiable causes and eliminates them one by one until you find the cause of the problem.......you cant have tunnell vision and look at one thing then try to prove it right.


This is from me, not Walt.

You don't seem to be paying attention to what Walt has been saying from the start. He does NOT have "tunnel vision", he is trying to keep everyone else from having "tunnel vision". He has neither the resources nor the time to "look at ALL possible causes and eliminate them one by one". That is what the researchers are SUPPOSED to be doing. He is trying to point out a possible cause that has apparently been ignored or discounted so far. He has stated from the first that he may be wrong, he just wants this idea to be given serious consideration.

In addition, he is trying to point out to beekeepers that adequate pollen stores are just as important as honey or nectar.

If I haven't stated this well, blame me, not Walt. I am speaking from what I have picked up peripherally from talking with Walt, not from ANY practical experience in the hive.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Now something that IS from Walt...

Suttonbeeman

Thank you for your opinion. Since you have experienced CCD and I haven't, your opinions are valuable to me. In fact, I would like a few more of them.

First let me say that it was not my intent to belittle Hackenberg's beekeeping. He was nice to me and gave me several hours of his time on Saturday afternoon. That was more than I had any reason to expect.

However, I did not get the opportunity to get answers to the questions I went there for. In Dickm's article 400 colonies set off in Florida didn't have a "live bee" a month later. I had hoped to get some history on those 400 divides. Your Florida experience would do just as well, if you are willing to help. The questions relate to operations from winter on, and are oriented to available forage at each step along the way. How long at a particular location and how many. Also how many that location would support on a year-round basis. That's a judgment call, but will trust your judgment. Any manipulation (splits/divides) in that season and your criteria for the makeup of the resulting colony. Time of processing steps, travel time, and concentration of hives at the destination are also important.

If you agree to provide this data, the questions will be posted on this thread. That way other interested persons will see the pattern of data relevant to this off-line effort. If you would rather not go public with your answers, fill in the blanks and PM to me. I am not interested in any trade secrets and any data you consider proprietary will be treated as confidential. Locations, for example, are not necessarily specific, but the nearest town that has a weather recording station will be fine.

While you consider whether or not you want to participate in this wild goose chase, let me have your opinion on another question. What should I conclude from Dave’s statement that those colonies that would take pollen substitute recovered?

Walt


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Walt

Will answer any/all questions! I dont type too fast....would love to just talk to you on phone.....you can publish any/all on here. I dont have a problem especially if it helps another beekeeper. Call me at 859-304-3103. I am pulling later today.....so at night would be good. I can call you back as I have unlmited calling. I do know weather is very screwed up. Also If u or anyone else knows of any locations where I can put some bees with a nectar flow....its burnt up here ,.......it would be appreciated!


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

suttonbeeman said:


> Walt
> 
> Will answer any/all questions! I dont type too fast....would love to just talk to you on phone.....you can publish any/all on here. I dont have a problem especially if it helps another beekeeper. Call me at 859-304-3103. I am pulling later today.....so at night would be good. I can call you back as I have unlmited calling. I do know weather is very screwed up. Also If u or anyone else knows of any locations where I can put some bees with a nectar flow....its burnt up here ,.......it would be appreciated!


From me, not Walt.

I just saw this and will give it to Walt. To all, I am unable to check this every day, so don't get upset if we don't answer right away.

Roy, for me


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Another on from me...

To any and/or all of you who think Walt is full of it, please read the article "Food For Thought", by Eric Mussen, in the July 2007 issue of Bee Culture.

Roy, for me


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## Ann (Feb 18, 2006)

Walts-son-in-law said:


> Another on from me...
> 
> To any and/or all of you who think Walt is full of it, please read the article "Food For Thought", by Eric Mussen, in the July 2007 issue of Bee Culture.
> 
> Roy, for me


I would, if I had it (****ed post office.... )


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Me, again.

A quick preview of the article, for those who don't have it yet:

The author treats the importance of abundant, healthy pollen in bee development.

Roy, for me


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Now, from Walt:

 Tall Paul gave me a tag from a Pioneer corn seed bag when we met. I thought it might be of interest to others.
 The Bayer Company is not concerned that they are in any danger of reprisal for their product, if used according to label instructions. It would be foolish to market the product without extensive testing.
 I'm not taking sides in this issue. Consider this tag info just relayed for those interested.
 On the side where seed type is identified, in very bold print is the notice that the seed is treated with "MID RATE" PoNCHO 250. In smaller print are the cautions against allowing the chemical to get into water sources as it is toxic to fish, and aquatic invertebrates.
 The following appears on the back of the tag in very small print:
*‘ PIONEER BRAND - SEED CORN*
* CAUTION:* This seed treated with Fludioxonil, Mefenoxam & Clothianidin (Poncho 600). TREATED AT MANUFACTURES' RECOMMENDED RATES. Do not use treated seed for feed, food or oil purposes. Store away from feeds and foodstuffs. DO NOT GRAZE UNTIL 30 DAYS AFTER PLANTING. Treated seeds exposed on soil surface may be hazardous to wild life. Cover or collect treated seeds spilled during loading. Dispose of excess treated seed. Leftover treated seed may be double-sown around headland or buried away from water sources in accordance with local requirements. Do not contaminate water bodies when disposing of planting equipment wash waters. Dispose of seed packaging in accordance with local requirements. Areas planted with treated seed may be replanted immediately with corn, rapeseed and canola. These areas may also be replanted after 30 days with cereal grains, grasses, non-grass animal feeds, soybeans and dried beans. Do not plant any other crop in the treated area for at least one year after treated seeds are planted. Rapeseed greens and seeds grown or harvested from treated seed must not be used for feed or human consumption. Rapeseed grown and harvested for treated seed is only for industrial uses and cannot be used for edible oil or any other human/feed consumption. Keep out of reach of children.
 *HAZARD COMMUNICATION DATA*
 TREATED SEED CORN - *CAUTION*
 Harmful if swallowed, inhaled, or absorbed through the skin or clothing. Skin, eye, and respiratory system irritant; avoid contact to skin and eyes. Wear a long-sleeved shirt, long pants and chemical resistant gloves. Wash thoroughly with soap and water after handling. Remove contaminated clothing and wash before reuse. If contact occurs with eyes flush eyes with water for at least 15 minutes. Seek medical attention if eye, skin or respiratory irritation persists. Seek prompt medical attention if swallowed. Treat symptomatically. For more information call Pioneer at 800-342-7123.
 *THE FOLLOWING PROVISIONS ARE PART OF THE TERMS OF PURCHASE OF THIS PRODUCT*
Pioneer Hi-Bred International, Inc., (Pioneer) warrants that the seed purchased from it conforms to the description on the label within tolerances, if any, established by law. THIS EXPRESS WARRANTY EXCLUDES ALL OTHER WARRANTIES EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING ANY WARRANTY OF *MERCHANTABILITY* AND OF FITNESS FOR PARTICULAR PURPOSE. The remedy shall be limited exclusively to the purchase price or replacement of the seed, at the election of Pioneer or its distributor or dealer. Purchaser agrees to these terms and the more fully detailed limitation of warranty and use of restrictions on the bas as being part of the purchase terms.
 Pioneer sales representatives (agents) have no ownership interest in the Pioneer brand products which they distribute. Consequently, a sales representative has no ability to grant a security interest in those products to his or her creditors. ‘


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Tecumseh

Your reference to "somewhat confused' was certainly a gentle slam, but I am sensitive to any insinuation that I came to the bee meeting in my turnip truck. I have a fair understanding of the workings of a beehive and how the colony applies the required support of the local vegetation.

It is not my nature to enjoy confrontation. You are welcome to challenge my conclusions, but try to avoid challenging my observations. I report what I see, and to challenge my observations is to call me a liar.

It is possible that you did not go back to the two referenced threads at the beginning of this thread. They provided some background for this thread. The intent of this thread is to track the full season effects on three colonies that were exposed to a very poor early season from the standpoint of pollen availability. Should they do well, and other colonies fail that were not prepared for the pollen shortage, that might be all the proof needed to lend some credibility to the concept that pollen shortage could be a contributor to CCD.

Waiting for the active season to run its course will be a dull activity. To stimulate some interest along the way, an occasional observation from yesteryear will be thrown in periodically. Take potshots at the conclusions as you see fit, but don't expect a response from me.

In parallel with the above, I'll be taking a look at possible weather effects for two other areas that experienced CCD. One in Ohio that had extreme losses in both 05 and 06 will get a thorough scrutiny. Should that effort produce any support for my enquiry, it will be reported here.

We have not advertised this at a "scientific" activity. We see it as a practical, small-scale effort to get the attention of the scientific community.

Now, where did I park my turnip truck?


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

> what you are presenting here is pure hypothesis based on limited (number of data points) observation with absolutely NO geographical range. this TOTAL lack of science rigor is then translated to address some problem coast to coast.


Tecumseh,

Is it improper for Walt to offer his hypothesis to us for consideration? Don't most of us have limited access to data? And yet we offer each other ideas and possibilities on myriad subjects on a daily basis. Isn't this the purpose of a forum such as this? Or are we to quietly await the input of someone that has the appropriate amount of "data points" and sufficient "science rigor?"


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Observation: The Honey bee yields to competition when foraging.

Discussion: You may not have thought about this concept in this light, but you see it regularly. Let's say you take bees to apple pollination. You park a trailer load of colonies at the side of a hundred acres of apple trees in bloom. They distribute themselves over the whole orchard fairly evenly. There is no obvious concentration of bees in the trees nearest the trailer. Not only are they well spread out over the orchard, some will be working an isolated apple tree a mile away.

They will often overfly a lush source at their doorstep, and fly a mile to work the same source of lesser quality. Why? My guess is that they expect competition from their nest mates close in. You might see a few bees working in that lush source out front, but who knows where they came from. Try to track one returning to your hive, and see what luck you have.

One season, when goldenrod was very showy from adequate rain showers in the fall, there was no characteristic smell at the hives. Walked out into the patch of goldenrod. On virtually every flower head there were one or more other species taking advantage of the bonanza. No honey bees! Not counted, it was estimated that a half dozen species of wasps, several different flys, and some other creatures that I couldn't identify all enjoying the bounty. One of the native pollinators - the lightning bug, was well represented. In short, my honey bees were not interested in competing with the assortment of contenders. It was a good year for the competition and a bad year for my bees in the fall.

That same thing happens nearly every year when elderberry blooms. The big white cluster of bloom that appears in early summer draws an assortment of species but not honeybees. Elderberry must have some valuable forage, or it wouldn't attract the other species.

The literature reports that the honey bee prefers a source that "blooms in profusion." In my opinion that equates to less competition. How does that relate to the subject of CCD? It's only relevant to the extent that forage incoming is a possible contributor to the cause. If our bees yield to competition in the field, from themselves and other species, they won't get their fair share. If they were inclined to fight for the forage available, they would get more of it, but foraging is a non-aggressive activity. Think of this characteristic from the standpoint of a location where colony count exceeds the numbers the area will support. There is already insufficient forage out there, and the reluctance to compete could easily make it worse. All would get less.


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## Church (May 31, 2007)

*Ethanol corn; treated and not eaten.*

What a lot of people also do not realize is barley and other crops are being cut back for the stupidity that is Ethanol corn production. 

If you'd like to do some research on ethanol, it is a complete joke cost and efficiency wise. Not only is it as much as other fuels but the refining transportation and costs make it a complete loser. The net result is a bust.

The reason corn is being treated is for ETHANOL..........the seed producers could care less if its toxic, if livestock can't eat it, or if it pollutes, since the corn is going towards fuel, not food.

Every politician is ranting ethanol, but its a complete con job and the end result will be 1000s more fields of corn that are toxic.

I hope when you do some research you will find that these crops probably destroy the ecosystem and the balance of nature, if there was any left.

So expect many more chemicals.........and a lot less bees.

However, I do agree that the irregular weather, unstable pollen availabity, and poor management, including feeding inappropriate protein sources, to be the general collapse of most hives.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Walt wrote,

To any and/or all of you who think Walt is full of it, please read the article "Food For Thought", by Eric Mussen, in the July 2007 issue of Bee Culture.

Well said Walt,

I have posted a pick or two here, but here's one more.

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_1004.jpg

One other important level is the Vitellogenin Reservoir.
Keith


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I read the "food for thought" article today. Its about the same information we were discussing here on beesource months ago. Lack of diversity in nutrition, poor quality pollen, stress, and so on.

What it lacks is an in depth look at the poor nutritional suppliments that we have been given in the past. It also does not cover the ignorance of the beekeeping community in regards to proper bee nutrition and standards for suppliments.

We keep bees where we need them. We keep bees on mono-agriculture thereby forcing them on one source pollen diets. Pollen that may be lacking in essential amino acids for proper health. Suppliments may be needed for certain industry practices and situations. But the suppliments are way below what is required for healthy bees.

I find it ironic that it took this much time for a "generalization" type article to be written. Its one small baby step. I hope the rest of the needed steps are not this long in the making.

I have posted many threads about nutrition, stress, along with some websites (info available 20 years ago) detailing symptoms of "low protein deficiency". Dwindling desease, efb, shortened bee lifespan, nosema, and other problems can all be seen in bees reaching low protein mass. Bees use their internal stores of protein in times of need , as humans use our fat reserves. With bees, if their internal body mass dips below a certain level (30%), serious problems can develope. This can be for two primary reasons. Poor nutrition pollen and a lack of pollen.

I quit posting about this a couple months back as I thought people were getting tired of the stuff. I passed much of whats in Eric's article to the CCD group more than 6 months ago.

I am glad to see some now take up and bring this discussion back to life. For those interested, you can do a search and read the previous threads on this topic. If I have time tomorrow, I'll paste some of them myself.


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

*Walt and the Pollen Reserve and CCD*

I have used Walt's "pollen box" maneuver for quite a few years now. For those that are unfamiliar, I'll describe how I do it:

I use one standard Langstroth deep for the brood nest in my colonies. As a general rule, I use shallows throughout the rest of the hive for a number of reasons. My overwintering configuration has one shallow beneath the deep, and either one or two shallows of honey above the deep.

My bees are located on the Alabama Gulf Coast, so all but my most northern yards have brood year round. By late January or early February, the buildup is well underway in my area and brood nests are expanding. This is when I checkerboard and add empty supers (shallows) above. As the season progresses, the brood nests will expand upward through the shallows (important to note the difference between expanding and relocating: during this expansion the base of the brood nest remains in the deep, sometimes including all 9 frames). When the shallow directly above the deep has at least 5 frames of brood, I put it to the side and inspect the shallow that is below the deep. Most of the time this shallow is empty, and if so I remove it and replace it with the shallow of brood. The empty is used upstack as a super. Occasionally the brood nest has been expanded into the lower shallow. In this case I just put everything back as it was.

When the colony begins to reduce brood nest volume, this shallow below the deep is backfilled with pollen as brood emerges. The pollen in this box is not the bright, colorful pollen I see at the edges of an expanding brood nest, but rather the dull, glazed, compacted pollen for long term storage.

This "pollen box" maneuver results in a boxful of pollen reliably and consistently in my area. My observations are just that; observations. No "science rigor", but these observations have, to this point, been repeatable. My overwintering success improved when I started using this technique. My colonies are also stronger at the beginning of the buildup than they were when I did not use the pollen box. (Note: to those that will point out that the improvements in my overwintering may have been the result of something else since I did not use the scientific method to prove that the pollen box was the cause of the success: you're right. It may be something else. But the improvements were across the board and coincidental with the change in my management practices.)

As to why I use shallows: first I will say that I do not intend to say one method is better than another, just why my method works better for me. Second, I usually do not use excluders. When the bees in my colonies begin to reduce brood nest volume as the season progresses, they (most of the time) start from the top of the brood nest and reduce down until the brood nest is back in the deep. Early on, I just assumed this was normal behavior. Then a few years ago I was short on shallow comb so had deeps and mediums on some colonies instead of shallows. When I was pulling honey at the end of the season, I found that in these colonies, the bees had moved the brood nest 2, 3, or 4 boxes up from where it started, and had completely filled the 3,4, or 5 boxes below them with pollen. I have played with this for the last few seasons and found that while the bees are content to expand the brood nest up into shallow boxes, they don't want the brood nest to end up there going into Winter. However, given deep or medium boxes above the initial brood area, they move the brood nest higher up the cavity, and have more pollen stored below. Note that the use of an excluder would prevent upward movement of the brood nest as or more effectively than the use of shallow boxes. (Again, I don't own or wear a white lab coat. Just observations.)

Ok, why did I explain all this boring stuff? Because I think the bees' pollen plan is, as Walt and Bjorn have pointed out, much more important than I used to and that it doesn't receive the attention it deserves. Also to point out that there may be some real merit to Walt's supposition that standard management with Langstroth equipment may seriously impair the colony's ability to manage pollen storage the way they "want" to. Given the opportunity, my bees almost always move the brood nest upstack and store huge quantities of pollen (1 1/2 or more deeps!) below the brood area. And this happens well before the Spring flow is over.

If this is what they "want" to do, and our management prevents them from doing so, what are the effects? Are they quantifiable? In a year where Mother Nature conspires to cause major pollen shortages, could the bees' ability to recover from our management practices be stretched past the limit, resulting in higher than normal colony losses (CCD)? I think that it is at least possible, and I'm glad there are folks like Walt and Bjorn and others to bring these ideas into the forum.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Bjorn wrote,

>We keep bees where we need them. We keep bees on mono-agriculture thereby forcing them on one source pollen diets. Pollen that may be lacking in essential amino acids for proper health. Suppliments may be needed for certain industry practices and situations. But the suppliments are way below what is required for healthy bees.

> With bees, if their internal body mass dips below a certain level (30%), serious problems can develope. This can be for two primary reasons. Poor nutrition pollen and a lack of pollen.

Keith replies,

Vitellogenin Reservoir levels, 

The one, most keepers should be looking at.


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

"That same thing happens nearly every year when elderberry blooms. The big white cluster of bloom that appears in early summer draws an assortment of species but not honeybees. Elderberry must have some valuable forage, or it wouldn't attract the other species."

I'm a native plant nut, and one of the species that I have planted on my property is Elderberry. I have witnessed many bees working elderberry for pollen. I've only seen them working it when the flowers are in direct sunlight though.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

*How to tell who is speaking*

This is from me, not Walt.

There seems to have been some confusion, lately, as to who is 'speaking' during this thread. It has been my fault. Please understand that Walt is NEVER online. I am Roy, his son-in-law (hence the online ID). I handle all of his ecommunications. Walt doesn't like computers. Say he doesn't like a machine telling him how to do things.

So, communications occur like this:
I periodically check the thread and print out any recent activity (this might NOT occur every night).
If Walt has a reply or update, he hand writes it and gives it to my daughter, his typist.
She types it in Word, prints it and gives it back to him for proofreading. This process is usually pretty quick as he eats dinner with us most nights.
After all of that, I post it to the thread.

This is why you may not see a reply for several days. A little cumbersome, but that's the way it is. PMs are handled the same way.

Usually I just stay in the background but lately I have been butting in. Looking back through this thread, post numbers 7, 10, 11, 48, 51, 52, and 54 have been mine.

In the future I will try to be more clear about who is 'speaking'.

If the beginning line is something like:
"This is from me, not Walt"
and the post ends with:
Roy, for me

then Roy is speaking.

If there is no lead-in and the post is signed by Walt and ends with:
Roy, for Walt

then Walt is speaking.

However, I am not perfect. My Profile signature is 'Roy, for Walt' and I might forget to turn it off.

Roy, for me


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Update – July 5, 07

 Had an interesting day. What interests me may be boring to you, but can take that risk. If this thread deteriorates into a monologue, I can live with that. It’s just for the record. Son-in-law Roy has a feral bee colony in a tree on the back corner of his property in the line fence row. At this point in the season, I hadn’t seen any significant incoming pollen for three full months (13 weeks). Another feral tree colony has already crashed – cause unknown. Wanting to give the local feral bees a helping hand, decided to try supplying some Feed Bee. The excess from mixing two batches filled a cottage cheese container (24 oz). When I climbed up to their entry to hang the CC container such that they could walk to it from home, surprise! They were coming in with their socks full. The pollen color is hard to describe – dirty white or cross between beige and pale gray. So what is it?

 Two local fall-fruiting trees that I had not ever caught in bloom came to mind. Perhaps they bloomed in early summer? Got out the binoculars and went to check sycamore and persimmon. No sign of fruit or bloom. Apparently, both were taken out by the freeze.

 Along the way to where I knew sycamore was plentiful, saw some trumpet vine along the road in bloom. Made a mental note to check it on the way back. Snipped a vine end with two blooms and took to the truck to examine more closely. Bingo! Color match! The stamen had been completely stripped of pollen, but the interior walls of the bell tube had some residual coloration.

 After finding incoming pollen at the feral colony, and before looking for the source, went to check the “raggedy three.” No pollen coming in – not even any corn. Went back in late afternoon – still nothing. These bees have been trucking along with essentially no pollen coming in for 3 months. It’s a miracle they are still going.

 The second dose of pollen substitute was provided on 28 June. Twice as much as the first time. Three days later, (1 July) they had consumed about half of it. They’re taking it a brisk rate, and apparently they prefer it to corn pollen.

 As it applies to promotion of the pollen box concept, I’ve shot myself in the foot. I doubt that anyone reading this has resorted to that radical manipulation on my say – so. Now I’ve fed pollen sub in addition to that insurance measure. Bad idea – weakened the sales pitch.

 Walt


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Walt wrote,
> Had an interesting day. What interests me may be boring to you, but can take that risk. If this thread deteriorates into a monologue,

Walt & son -in -law,

This is not boring to me, BUT, I find alot of folks talking about pollen feeding, but how much are they doing.

I find a lot of fluff here, I have shown picks of how much I feed and so forth.I have feed pollen sub in large amounts (20 pounds plus per hive ) for years, and all I here are these Johnny come lately. I dont see any body taking about, Vitellogenin Levels and so forth, Can anybody help???

Keith, the rookie at pollen feeding


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

Thanks Keith,

I found this doing a google search.

http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0050086

http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0050062


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

walt or walt's son in law first adds:
Your reference to "somewhat confused' was certainly a gentle slam, but I am sensitive to any insinuation that I came to the bee meeting in my turnip truck. I have a fair understanding of the workings of a beehive and how the colony applies the required support of the local vegetation.

tecumseh replies:
didn't think I made any reference in regards to a turnup truck... although mine is sittin' in the drive way. in regards to bee's and such I didn't fall off of mine yesterday either.

then walt adds:
It is not my nature to enjoy confrontation. You are welcome to challenge my conclusions, but try to avoid challenging my observations. I report what I see, and to challenge my observations is to call me a liar.

tecumseh responds:
the question is not so much what you see but what assumption you bring to the event when the observation is made... this IS a simple process of questioning your aprior ASSUMPTIONS and suggesting that this is the equivalent to calling you a liar is a bit of an over reaction. 

then walt or walt's son in law adds: 
It is possible that you did not go back to the two referenced threads at the beginning of this thread. They provided some background for this thread. The intent of this thread is to track the full season effects on three colonies that were exposed to a very poor early season from the standpoint of pollen availability. Should they do well, and other colonies fail that were not prepared for the pollen shortage, that might be all the proof needed to lend some credibility to the concept that pollen shortage could be a contributor to CCD.

tecumseh replies:
fine... but how do you propose to place a quantative number on the pollen and or pollen reserves without having some long term numbers in regards to the pollen that is brought into the hive... ie without some kind of long term pollen trapping numbers for a specific geographical area this would be, at it's very best, an extremely subjective determination. 

even if you pocessed this kind of raw data then questions in regards to pollen quality would cloud any projected analysis.

ikeep bees sezs:
Is it improper for Walt to offer his hypothesis to us for consideration? Don't most of us have limited access to data? And yet we offer each other ideas and possibilities on myriad subjects on a daily basis. Isn't this the purpose of a forum such as this? Or are we to quietly await the input of someone that has the appropriate amount of "data points" and sufficient "science rigor?"

tecumseh replies:
as my wife's mentor (he won the nobel for establishing a link between genetics and behavior) said most directly... it is a good to throw out a hypothesis everyday before breakfast. 

once tossed you may then proceed to the next hypothesis... the problem being that the number of possible hypothesis is infinite.

and most certainly good clean data is limited and thereby not without cost. larger numbers (data points) simply gives you greater confidence (confidence that you have collected data in the entire range of the population) in the final conclusion.

as to your last question I suspect this might fall into what most economist might group together as 'in the long run' conclusion to a particular problem and like Keynes suggested 'in the long run' we will all be dead. so NO I don't think a plan of doing nothing is acceptable.

tecumseh most humbly ask once again:
I would like to acquire some answer to my previous question in regards to sutton bee man's experience in regards to the ccd thingee. to repeat the question again... what kind of afb treatment did sutton bee man and his bee keeping buddy use?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Kieth,
You ask about Vitellogenin Levels. Why?

In an industry such as beekeeping where just understanding the basics for nutrition is lacking for the 99% of beekeepers, who the heck is having their bees tested for Vitellogenin levels?

We have suppliments being marketed to us that are below any industry standard for nutrition. We have suppliments being marketed with no nutritional information listed on the packages. As an industry, its hard to find out the nutrition levels of the major pollen sources we have in this country. (Something other countries have done years ago)

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade. But for an industry that lacks just basic understanding and concepts for something as easy as feeding bees and nutritional requirements for maintaining healthy colonies, discussions of "levels of Vitellogenin" seem way over board.

DeGroot had a nutrition standard in 1953 for bees. I had spoke to four county clubs this past spring. Not one beekeeper could tell me what was isoluecine, what the protein level of thier pollen patty was, or anything else for that matter.

If we can't keep it as simple as knowing whats in pollen or a suppliment.....whats the average beekeeper going to do about Vitellogenin? Once you read about it...then what? Nothing! Lets get over the latest fancy "word of the Day"....Vitellogenin.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

>You ask about Vitellogenin Levels. Why?
Why not. 


>We have suppliments being marketed to us that are below any industry standard for nutrition. 

What is the standard?

>We have suppliments being marketed with no nutritional information listed on the packages.

If thats the case why are we talking about CCD, why waste the time with any of this?

> its hard to find out the nutrition levels of the major pollen sources we have in this country. (Something other countries have done years ago)

No it is not... And something I have done for years, dairyland food labs do all mine.

>I don't want to rain on anyone's parade. But for an industry that lacks just basic understanding and concepts for something as easy as feeding bees and nutritional requirements for maintaining healthy colonies, discussions of "levels of Vitellogenin" seem way over board.

Well Bjorn, that may be true but you have to get the fire going somehow.

>DeGroot had a nutrition standard in 1953 for bees. I had spoke to four county clubs this past spring. Not one beekeeper could tell me what was isoluecine, what the protein level of thier pollen patty was, or anything else for that matter.

I think that why we need to be exposing this info here so we can get off the CCD parade.

>If we can't keep it as simple as knowing whats in pollen or a suppliment.....whats the average beekeeper going to do about Vitellogenin? Once you read about it...then what? Nothing! Lets get over the latest fancy "word of the Day"....Vitellogenin

Maybe that why some net 200 plus a hive and others just get by.I here talk about Queens ect..on beesource. Maybe your right, we should just talk about what the fastest way clean up dead outs or a better way to keep the mice out of dead equipment.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Keith,
You ask about standards and then answer your question with the DeGroot part of the reply.

I talk much about "industry". If your sending samples yourself off to a lab...good for you. But lets get a grip on reality from a "industry" standpoint. I don't expect each and every interested beekeeper from across the country to send in samples. Some may...overwhelmingly MOST will not!

My personal gripe, or slant is from an industry view. Show me a modern beekeeping book that details nutritional information and the requirments of amino acids, protien levels, and basic essentials. No where to be seen.

Show me a beekeeping publication that outlines the good or bad with pollen, or the industry practices that limits bees on mono-agriculture. Show me a beekeeping book or publication outlining the nutritional values of almond, apple, or any sort of list for beekeepers to utilize. Nothing.

I never said anything about queens, cleaning dead outs or mice.

What I did say, is that for an industry that lacks basic information and knowledge.....your passion to bring up "Vitellogenin", is a little like beating your head against a wall.

Do we as consumers demand nutritional analysis be listed on suppliments? No.

As readers, do we expect more than the rehashed garbage over and over again from the many "standard" books being published? No.


I am not saying that nutrition is solely the reason for CCD. But due to CCD, I have found out how lacking we are when it comes to this critical area. I have rehashed this many times over. Remember my comparision of an apple grower not knowing whats in his fertilizer, or what nitrogen is? Thats like a beekeeper not knowing what in his bees food stores, or what isoleucine is? Most industry, no matter what you choose (beef, milk, alfalfa cutting, apples) understand nutrition and industry standards and requirments for a healthy crop or production. Beekeeping is lacking years behind other industries. And lacking behind other countries within the beekeeping industry.

Got to go now.....need to read the next story of some researchers debating bottom boards....


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

>Show me a beekeeping publication that outlines the good or bad with pollen, or the industry practices that limits bees on mono-agriculture. Show me a beekeeping book or publication outlining the nutritional values of almond, apple, or any sort of list for beekeepers to utilize. Nothing.

Well Bjorn, I agree

>I never said anything about queens, cleaning dead outs or mice.

I never said you did, that was a general statement. In other words, we should find methods on cleaning up behind the problem, instead of solving it.

>What I did say, is that for an industry that lacks basic information and knowledge.....your passion to bring up "Vitellogenin", is a little like beating your head against a wall.

Well... maybe so




>I am not saying that nutrition is solely the reason for CCD. But due to CCD, I have found out how lacking we are when it comes to this critical area. I have rehashed this many times over.

agree, me too


I will sit out for awhile and see what comes through this thread... NOT.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

..........


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

FROM WALT

Keith J. and Bjorn


 Sorry I came in late on this subject – retired, you know. When Dickm’s article appeared and tweaked my interest, I asked Roy to check BeeSource for activity on the subject. He got so many hits on search, he refused to print them for me. So, I’m playing catch-up.


 What I bring to the table in this discussion are two old observations that are not recognized by the experts:


 1. Use of Langstroth hive equipment inhibits storage of the colony pollen reserves.


 2. Failure to build the pollen reserve early in the season handicaps the colony in coping with shortages in pollen availability for the remainder of the active season.


 Pulled two old articles from my files this week to see what I had written then. Both the “Evils” and the “Pollen Box” articles reflect my thinking at the time. The Part 2 predecessor of this thread acknowledges the faulty conclusions contained therein.


 This year I learned how early in the season the pollen reserve is stored. We tend to forget that the honey bee is a forest creature. Their whole survival format is based on life in the woods. In the forest pollen is plentiful in the early season. It’s important that they build a pollen reserve while it’s available.


 I’ll stand behind numbers 1 and 2 above against all comers. What could be more basic to the whole country than the standardized boxes that we use? If I can show a single case where some weather aberration caused an unusual reduction in field pollen, I’ll take my case to court.


 The stumpy T formed by Ala., crossed by Tenn., is one of the few white spots on the national map of CCD-affected areas. This year, it’s our turn. But the affected areas won’t be reported until later in the season. We’ll have to wait it out. In the meantime, I’ll expect some 06 areas to drop out this year. The Easter freeze that wiped us out will have less impact as you move north. (See Part 2 response to Peggjam.)


 Can we start over with the new info available this year? I’m not too old to learn. 

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Roy



Walt said:


> ...I asked Roy to check BeeSource for activity on the subject. He got so many hits on search, he refused to print them for me. ...


He had me search on ‘CCD’, Disappearing Disease’, and ‘Fall Dwindling Disease’. I could have easily printed half a ream.

Roy, for me


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt

 I KEEP BEES


 Thanks for the description of the process,


 Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt

Observation: The bee colony surrenders to adversity.

Discussion:

 This subject needs a few words up front on semantics. We intend to anthropomorphize freely. I am of the opinion that the bee colony “thinks”. The experts are sure that insects don’t think. The closest they will come to saying that bees have some mentality is to call the colony a “super organism”. That label is a small condescension that the colony performs at a higher level than an individual insect. They attribute that higher level of performance to pheromones.


 I see evidence that the colony makes decisions as a group. The group decision may be incorporated in their instincts and not a case of deductive logic, but the whole colony can change operations overnight. An example might help: In the fall, the colony decides it’s time to protect winter stores by dispatching the drone burden on resources. The next day the girls will be harassing the drones everywhere in an effort to throw them overboard. Did the drones suddenly develop a bad case of BO to make them unwelcome? Not likely. Note that running the drones off is delayed if the colony has a supersedure queen in process. That could be an effect of pheromones, but it’s hard to imagine that there is a significant change in pheromones just because it’s Oct. 12 or whatever date the decision is made.


 Anthropomorphizing is unavoidable when discussing bee thought processes. Not only does our language only have descriptive words relevant to our species, but we don’t speak beealese. My antenna are too short to communicate in their language if I knew it. Sorry George, see no alternative.


 That same literature that denies that bees think has a multitude of references to colony moods. Describing colony disposition, there are words such as cross, excited, happy, gentle, morose, etc. Having worked with feral stock mostly, I would add vicious and hostile. You likely have seen some of these mood changes. If you have any experience at all, you will be careful to work your bees when they are busy and happy to be at work. The upshot of mood description is to ask the question: Do not moods suggest a composite colony mentality? 


 On to liberal anthropomorphizing.  The subject of this blurb is the colony knowing when to say uncle, or whatever your favorite expression is for quitting. When they perceive that they have lost the battle for survival, they throw in the towel. An example that you may have seen is when the weak colony that is overwhelmed by robbers does not fight to the last man (lady) standing. They yield to the inevitable and retreat to let it happen.


 I first saw this characteristic when doing tear outs (structural removal) to acquire feral stock for my purposes. When starting a tear out, to gain access to the comb, the bees were quite defensive. As structure was removed, they got more defensive with each nail pulled. When I started cutting down comb, defensiveness peaked. But when cutting down the last of the comb, the fight had gone out of the colony, and they had retreated to a cluster in a neutral corner. The last of the comb could have been removed without protectve gear. Could have pulled off my gloves already peppered with stingers. That may be a slight exaggeration but it was obvious that the colony, collectively, had recognized defeat and surrendered. 


 This characteristic is offered as a possible explanation for the colony not “taking” pollen substitute when in decline from CCD. If the colony has already thrown in the towel and are resigned to die it may be too late. The decision to quit has been made and it could be irreversible.


 The work of this crackpot will continue.


 Stay tuned.


 Walt


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Hi Walt,
I too have observed how a bee colony becomes demoralized during the course of removal. I've also observed how, at some point, the bees being robbed may actually join the robber bees to complete the demolition of their former hive. I also know that a hive seems to "remember" stuff like the locations of where to find food/water for weeks. Have you written any articles about hive/swarm decision making or other seemingly intelligent behavior? Any good references?

But, none of this is the subject of your nutritional based CCD thread. Mayve a new thread is needed?


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Tecumseh

 Gravitating away from confrontation, I agree with your comments about quantification of pollen reserves. An elusive prospect. I am a practical sort, and seeing the need to support this colony survival requirement, several ways were tried over several years. The pollen box maneuver gave me results that satisfied me. Quantification of how much is enough might be unique to every location in the country. In my area, field forage certainly is.

 Walt


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

I am not certain what you are calling a 'pollen box'. perhaps you can provide me with some simple explanation. is this somewhat like the old concept of feed box (pretty much a southern bee keepers term)?

what I will descibe for you here is somewhat like ccd... but not......... it is also a pretty good description of how quickly a group of bees can become demoralized and abscond from their existing hive..... 

as I have suggest to a number of individual I have a reoccuring problem locally (I am about 20 miles directly north of the weavers) where we have a enormous pollen flow and a modest nectar flow. this typically results in my best (most productive) hives becoming pollen bound in the lowest box mid way thru the season (mid summer). the brood area moves upward and it seems that the workers loose interest is guarding the pollen since these frames have almost no nectar or brood. the consequence of this is that the wax moth and shb quickly move in, gain a foothole at the bottom of the frames and from this point on the bees are fighting an almost impossible battle to evict these invaders. the hive cluster continues to move upward as do the invaders. at about the point at which the bottom box is totally over run by moth and shb the bees will typically abscond from the hive. years back I saw a similar event occur when fire ants gained a foothole on a hive with a 'fancy' bottom board (we sat them on the ground in those days). both do suggest that as some point the bees will abscond when then they have finally become totally demoralized.

then walt adds:
Anthropomorphizing is unavoidable when discussing bee thought processes. 

tecumseh replies:
well I am not so certain I could go with the absolute tint of this statement....however we are not being totally rigorus here from an intellectual/academic standpoint so I would suggest that if anthropomorphizing allows someone a handle to make a clean description then we likely have no need to be absolutely pristine.

some (natural) science is considered descriptive and some is considered to be hypothesis driven. I would 'suspect' that antropomorphizing is used in the first but TOTALLY disallowed in the second. the problem with antropomorphizing is that it may lead to description of what you expect (from the human prospective) to see rather than what is actually occuring (see prior comments on assumptions). a bit tooooo much anthropomorphizing should suggest to the individual who is making the observation that they take a cold had look at exactly what they are observing.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt

 My Sunday newspaper on June 17, 07 had an AP article on CCD. Title: Pesticide, pathogen focus in bee die-off. A photo of Dave Hackenberg with a deep frame of brood, standing on a lower corner is included with the text.

 It’s interesting that the article reports that a new pathogen has been found in dead bees. I am surprised that there is only one, so far. The scientific community is boring down on this problem.

 Prior to meeting with Maryann at Penn St., I had cautioned her via email about announcing a pathogen as THE cause – it would be necessary to sort out cause from effect. She responded via email that if a pathogen were identified, the real work would begin. Perhaps that “real work” is in progress, and that’s why we haven’t heard more about it. ( This may be old news)

 But that is not what was significant to me about the news release. The picture of the frame of brood IS. Dave would have every reason to be proud of that frame of brood. It’s picture-perfect. Some capped honey (small amount) in the upper, outside corners, some open-cell feed of about 4 to 5 cells in an arc inside the capped honey, and a few open feed cells down the side bars on both sides. The center third of the top bar contained brood and after flaring out under the feed band at the shoulders, brood was solid to the bottom bars. Very few open cells – good solid brood pattern. You couldn’t want a better-looking frame of brood.

 Hold it right there. Where is the pollen reserve that the bees store in the early season? Dave told me that he wintered in a deep and a shallow. I presume this deep frame of brood was from the basic brood chamber on the bottom board. The trees in the photo background are fully leafed out. The vegetative season has advanced beyond the period that the pollen reserve should have been stored, and it IS NOT HERE.

 An earlier posting stated that Langstroth equipment inhibited storing of the full season pollen reserve. I fully expected to have to explain that somewhere along the way on this thread. When a deep is used on the bottom, or double deep is reversed during build up, brood to the bottom bars overrides the natural inclination to backfill pollen below the brood nest expanding upward. No pollen reserve is the result.

 Thanks to AP, this picture saves me a thousand words. The pollen box maneuver was incorporated in my seasonal management about 6 to 7 years ago to offset this effect of the use of the Langstroth deep. Now my bees have required pollen reserve to sustain them through the effects of weather disturbances on pollen availability. We’ll see this season if that protection is enough to handle this extreme disturbance of 2007.

 Walt


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

walt states:
An earlier posting stated that Langstroth equipment inhibited storing of the full season pollen reserve. I fully expected to have to explain that somewhere along the way on this thread. When a deep is used on the bottom, or double deep is reversed during build up, brood to the bottom bars overrides the natural inclination to backfill pollen below the brood nest expanding upward. No pollen reserve is the result.

tecumseh ask:
why? what is the mechanism that would make langstroth equipment any different from bees in a tree?


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

I have some 3 medium hives (with honey supers on top) that have filled the bottom medium completely with pollen.


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## danno1800 (Mar 13, 2004)

*Dr. Nancy Ostriguy at HAS told us there was a pathogen common to CCD hives*

She said she couldn't say more because the paper was being peer reviewed. She felt the paper should be published in the next few months.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt



tecumseh said:


> I am not certain what you are calling a 'pollen box'. perhaps you can provide me with some simple explanation. is this somewhat like the old concept of feed box (pretty much a southern bee keepers term)?
> ... <snip> ...
> a bit tooooo much anthropomorphizing should suggest to the individual who is making the observation that they take a cold had look at exactly what they are observing.


 
Tecumseh

 Glad you’re still with us. Your negativism helps keep the pot stirred. Thought you had signed off in disgust.

 Scroll back to I Keep Bees description of the pollen box maneuver on the GulfCoast. He, like you, is in a near-tropical area. Am currently writing an explanation for extra pollen stores at the bottom of the brood nest. Will be posted in a week or so. Based on your description, I’m assuming you do not use an excluder. Is that true?

 Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt



db_land said:


> Hi Walt,
> I too have observed how a bee colony becomes demoralized during the course of removal. I've also observed how, at some point, the bees being robbed may actually join the robber bees to complete the demolition of their former hive. I also know that a hive seems to "remember" stuff like the locations of where to find food/water for weeks. Have you written any articles about hive/swarm decision making or other seemingly intelligent behavior? Any good references?
> 
> But, none of this is the subject of your nutritional based CCD thread. Mayve a new thread is needed?


Dbland

An article in BC Oct 03 briefly described a more dramatic decision: That of the colony going on “short rations” and stop feeding larval brood. Happens overnight. A scanned version of that article can be found at 


http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/all walt articles.htm

Colony decisions pursuant to swarming are in two places, BC, Apr 03 provides an introduction to reproductive cut off. In the May 03 issue some of the steps of swarm preps are treated. Both are available in the POV area of this site.

If you think a new thread appropriate, start it. Then it’s your baby to nurse.

Thanks for your input on this one.

Walt


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

walt's son in law adds:
Scroll back to I Keep Bees description of the pollen box maneuver on the GulfCoast. He, like you, is in a near-tropical area. Am currently writing an explanation for extra pollen stores at the bottom of the brood nest. Will be posted in a week or so. Based on your description, I’m assuming you do not use an excluder. Is that true?

tecumseh replies:
can you do a bit better in regards to my previous question... Is the 'I Keep Bees' in this thread, or a prior thread (ps I am on a dial up modem so flippling from here to there is quite time consuming)?

you are quite correct in that I only use queen excluders for cetain processes related to queen rearing and never in relations to collecting a honey crop.

evidently you have some problem in regard to discerning between being negative or being a sceptic or a cynic. I would suggest if you wish to toss out ideas that are divergent (and I am personally often times accused of looking at things up side down and backward) then you should expect to have these views questioned.... unless of course you are expecting to only converse with dolts and dullards.

At this point I am simply trying to decide whether the 'pollen box' idea is simply a replay of the old 'feed box' idea?


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

Tecumseh,

My description of Walt's pollen box is in this thread, the one in which you are participating.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

thanks ikeepbees... i kept looking for a post titled I Keep Bees instead of a member's name. thanks...


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

tecumseh said:


> walt states:
> An earlier posting stated that Langstroth equipment inhibited storing of the full season pollen reserve. I fully expected to have to explain that somewhere along the way on this thread. When a deep is used on the bottom, or double deep is reversed during build up, brood to the bottom bars overrides the natural inclination to backfill pollen below the brood nest expanding upward. No pollen reserve is the result.
> 
> tecumseh ask:
> why? what is the mechanism that would make langstroth equipment any different from bees in a tree?


_____________________________________

First, an aside by Roy:

tecumseh, Due to the process we use, Walt's replies will often lag your posts. By that I mean Walt will be reading and replying to one of your posts while you have already sent one or more after it. I have asked him to make sure he tells me which post he is referring to so that I may quote it in the reply.

Roy, for me
______________________________________________

Now, Walt's reply:

Tecumseh,

Valid Question, poor answer follows:

More of a preference than a mechanism. The colony "wants" brood to the bottom bar on a deep frame. The "brood ball" as my friend Bob calls it is really the top half of a ball. They want the arched top for reasons I won't go into, but the bottom is essentially flat, if restricted to a deep box. This is readily apparent when the cluster of a double deep is in the upper and the lower deep is empty.

Further, they don't "like" the break in functional comb between boxes of roughly an inch and a half. In the tree hollow comb is continuous from the top down. Their "contempt" for the break in comb shows up in many ways. One of which is the feature we are discussing here. The brood ball might really be round in the tree hollow, more on this is coming up soon.

Bottom line: I don't know the why's; It's just what I see on a regular basis.

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

MichaelW said:


> I have some 3 medium hives (with honey supers on top) that have filled the bottom medium completely with pollen.


From Walt


Michael W

Exactly! Three boxes is better than two boxes. The break in functional comb is not right where they want the winter brood nest. They really try to avoid a winter brood nest that spans the gap in functional comb between boxes. In the far north where they winter in triple deeps, the bees get it right there also. If the brood is lowered to the bottom board in late winter, the bees have the opportunity to work around the box design we provide.

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

danno1800 said:


> She said she couldn't say more because the paper was being peer reviewed. She felt the paper should be published in the next few months.


 From Walt

danno 1800

Thanks for the tip. I wish I had more confidence that peer review would make it better, or more accurate.

Walt


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

roy adds:
First, an aside by Roy

tecumseh replies:
I think I understand the system in progress... quite understandable and thanks for the explanation.

walt adds:
More of a preference than a mechanism. The colony "wants" brood to the bottom bar on a deep frame. The "brood ball" as my friend Bob calls it is really the top half of a ball. They want the arched top for reasons I won't go into, but the bottom is essentially flat, if restricted to a deep box. This is readily apparent when the cluster of a double deep is in the upper and the lower deep is empty.

Further, they don't "like" the break in functional comb between boxes of roughly an inch and a half. In the tree hollow comb is continuous from the top down. Their "contempt" for the break in comb shows up in many ways. One of which is the feature we are discussing here. The brood ball might really be round in the tree hollow, more on this is coming up soon.

Bottom line: I don't know the why's; It's just what I see on a regular basis.

tecumseh replies:
I just got thru reading an old article in the ABJ by Steve Taber and he did a very nice job of describing different equipment (some quite odd) and how this could effect winter survival. that article suggested that when the cluster varied from a pretty much round shape (ball) that regardless of wintertime temperature and oftentime stores the hive did not survive. he desribed one hive that was fairly large (made of metal) and cubed shaped which he had spent a lot of time and sugar in 'drawing out' foundation that were perfect. these hives could not survive the winter until he punched a couple of hole in the middle of the frame.... well so much for perfect comb. or perhaps I should say perfect for us but not so perfect for the bees.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

FROM WALT,

Ectracted from Eric Mussen article Food For Thought, Bee Culture, July, 2007

“From a honey bee nutritional standpoint, not all pollens are the same. Various researchers have determined that pollens can be grouped into categories, based mostly on crude protein content (but also on amino acids composition). Pollens from most deciduous fruit trees are nutritious for honey bees. Lupine pollen is listed as good in Australia, as are almond, clovers, pear, and some of the gum (_Eucalyptus_) trees. Buttercups (some are toxic to bees), _Crocus_, willows, wild radish, prune, apple, mustard, rape (canola), and poppies are supposed to be good.

Pollen that are less nutritious and with which a mix becomes more important are: elm, cottonwood, ash, pussy willow, dandelion, sweet corn, and alfalfa (actually alfalfa pollen is nutritional, but honey bees don't like to eat it).

Air-borne pollens tend to be least nutritious such as alder, hazel nut, ash, birch, poplar, and field corn. Sunflower, eastern buckwheat, fireweed, blueberry, and weeping willow are not adequate nutrient sources.

Coniferous tree pollens are especially poor: pine, spruce, fir, and cedars.”

Eric's choices of words in this entry do not convey a sense of irrefutability to the classifications of pollen quality. If pollen quality is affected by factors that affect nectar secretion, there is long list of variables such as soil moisture and type, etc. However, my bees agree in principle with the generalized groups. We've already mentioned that they do not show much interest in field corn. Although cedar is plentiful and early, have never seen any of that gray pollen gathered. If you bump a cedar limb in bloom, a veritable cloud of pollen fills the air. Too much good stuff available at the same time.

Would like to expand on the "good stuff" some. This area is a really good swarming location. Early and overlapping pollen sources gets the bees off to a good start on build up. The local woods have a good mix of sources. Unlike the piney woods or the birch forest, bees here can pick and choose.

Are you not amazed that this insect can discern the good stuff from the bad? It almost has to be an innate, individual skill. That's a lot of savvy to pack in their genes. But that's not where I was heading with this.

Maybe I give the little boogers too much credit for their moxie, but wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that they apply their selection skill to storing the pollen reserve. In the early season, while there is a smorgasbord of sources available, they set aside a portion of the "good stuff" for leaner times. This would imply that the pollen of the reserve is a higher grade than average pollen, and could be used to supplement lesser grades through the active season.

Just adding a little "Food For Thought" of my own, and emphasizing the need for the reserve.

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

A Few More Tidbits – Sat 21 July

RE: Rob’s description of his application of the pollen box maneuver.

 Rob reported that when using deeps or mediums for supering above the brood nest he often had multiple boxes of pollen below the brood nest. Let’s see if we can explain that complication.

 It is not my intention to promote the concept of checkerboarding for swarm prevention in this thread. However, CB is my point of reference for the last ten years, and observations over that period are certainly affected by the differences in colony operations induced by that management approach.

 The pollen box maneuver was incorporated into CB a couple years ago, but the observations leading to it dated back some five years or so earlier. When increasing overhead honey for wintering in the interest of swarm prevention, two or three years were spent wintering in double deeps. (A deep and shallow, properly provisioned, are plenty here.) During the period of wintering in double deeps it was noted that some colonies filled the bottom box with pollen. If storing of pollen at the bottom was a natural survival trait, the colony should be given the opportunity to do that. A couple more years were spent replacing the upper deep with two shallows to provide more flexibility. Then, I could move a shallow of brood to the bottom to be filled with pollen. That worked well.

 Back to Rob’s “too much pollen downstairs”;

Observations:

1. The colony “wants” to store pollen below the brood nest during early season pollen availability.
2. Colony contempt for the break in functional comb about 1 ½ inches between boxes causes them to often use that break as a demarcation line between uses for brood or stores.
3. The colony much prefers to rear brood on the expanse of comb on a deep frame than a shallow. It’s as close as they can get to the tree hollow continuous comb. Their preference for brooding on a deeper span is not nearly as acute for mediums as it is for shallows. (Only one inch difference.) 


Back up to CB to get a running start: The reason CB is effective is that it distorts colony judgment on the top of the colony cavity. In the wild, where comb building starts at the top and works down, the top of the honey IS the top of the cavity. The colony in build up stops short of the top to maintain the honey reserve overhead. What CB does is break up that overhead reserve with empty comb. While the colony can ignore empty comb added above, they can’t ignore empty comb if they are standing on it. They set out to fill the empty comb prior to starting swarm preps. 

 My interpretation of Rob’s several boxes of pollen at the bottom of the brood nest follows: By CBing overhead honey, we disrupt their perception of the top and give them more empty comb above. The colony continues to increase brood nest size at the top. At the same time, they are storing nectar overhead in an attempt to fill their cavity. By maintaining empty comb at the top, the colony is encouraged to keep increasing brood volume until reproductive cut off timing. Then the brood nest recedes from the top. They have increased the brood nest through the period of swarm preps, and now it’s too late. Swarm preps do not start. By disrupting colony perception of the top of their cavity, we run the risk of the whole brood nest floating upward, and continuing to add pollen below. Of course that wouldn’t happen with a barrier such as a queen excluder, or a band of capped honey.

 To anchor the brood nest in the deep brood chamber at the bottom, shallow supers must be used above. The colony preference for rearing brood in a deep normally keeps them from raising the brood nest bottom. After checking the article on the pollen box as published it’s obvious why it wasn’t sent to Barry for inclusion in POV. The editor did not use the sketch submitted with the article. Instead, he redrew it and the published article shows mediums instead of shallows above the basic deep brood chamber. That could easily lead to a climbing brood nest. We intend to correct the sketch and update the text with this year’s data. The corrected version should be submitted to beesource within a month.

SUBJECT CHANGE

 Expansion of the brood nest into overhead honey is TEMPORARY brood volume. That brood volume increase is intended to generate bees to populate a reproductive swarm. That space will only be used for one or two brood cycles if the colony is on schedule for swarming. The first action of swarm preps is to backfill the expansion dome with nectar. When backfilled, they are ready to start swarm cells. The parent colony has been prepared to lose a large number of young bees to the swarm.

 Let’s apply that temporariness to the double deep winter config. If they clustered in the lower and have a full deep of honey overhead, and are permitted to do it their way, pollen upstairs is not required. The expansion dome is primarily dedicated to brood with a rim of liquid feed at the top. Capped honey outside the rim of feed. In a short time, they will be returning that upper deep to honey for winter. They can, and often do, feed that temporary brood from pollen at the sides of the lower. If periodically reversed for swarm prevention they will eventually have pollen at the outside of both brood chambers. But is it enough to sustain the colony for the full season without their natural pollen reserve at the bottom?

 I was wintering in double deeps when I first saw the tendency to store pollen below. As noted earlier some would completely fill the bottom deep with long-term pollen. To assist my bees in doing it their way, the pollen box maneuver was incorporated in the early spring. I wondered at the time how we had gotten away for so long without supporting this need of our bees. As it turns out maybe we didn’t. As the CCD thing rolls along there are more and more reports of earlier die-offs over the last hundred years, scattered but persistent. Our bees are resilient, but they have their limits. Did 100 years ring a bell? That’s about how long we have been using Langstroth equipment. Perhaps we should go back to using log “gums”? (Facetious/rhetorical question.) 

 Have rambled much too long on this entry, but let me try one more concept on you. I am operating on the premise that hive design is the root cause of CCD in all its forms. The vagaries of recent weather resulting from climate change makes it worse. The commercial beek is hardest hit because he abuses his bees in other ways. He concentrates colonies where the pollen forage will not support their needs and he wants compact hives to load more on the semi. The compact hive has the least chance of storing the lower pollen reserve when quality pollen is available. 

If this approach is flawed, I’ll bow out as gracefully as possible. I’m too old to worry about being wrong. But if I’m right, it will be a black day for beekeeping. How many beeks do you think would seriously consider changing their modus operandi? To change would be to admit they have been abusing their bees.

 The Reverend triple L is accorded sainthood for leading us into movable frames – and rightly so. We just haven’t been aware enough to see the deficiencies in that advantage.

 Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Update Jul 25, 2007

Feral Tree Colony

With over a week of trumpet vine (TV) pollen availability incoming, TV pollen incoming has trailed off from about 70% to about 20%. Foraging mostly for nectar. Working buckbush.

Raggedy 3

Finally, some pollen coming in - estimate about 1 in 20 bringing TV, some of them split loads of both pollen and nectar. Mostly nectar foraging - source unknown.

Honey harvested this past week - 7 shallows and 2 mediums full. Could have consolidated partials and taken at least two more shallows, but since they are bringing nectar, will wait to see how long the nectar lasts. This production is about normal for this area with standard management, but falls far short of what I expect from CB/NM. Considering the season so far, suppose it isn't too bad - hear rumors of local beeks with almost nothing to take off.

Small Paul, the now owner, is threatening to replace all the old boxes this week. Might have to re-identify as the refurbished 3. They are very rough-looking. They are housed in cull boxes of yesteryear. They are natural swarms of ‘03. It's hard to say no to friends and neighbors when you're the local Bee Man, and you have some junk boxes in the bee barn. When a friend's Mama has a swarm in her shrubbery, find some junk and go to her rescue. Having divested myself of these three, I am now retired from beekeeping for the third time in six years.

Walt


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Walt, somehow I don't believe you will ever fully retire.

What are your thoughts on feeding pollen subsitute in the fall as part of the fall feeding routine? Especially the northern beekeeps, as all my question relate to my area specificly. Thanks.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

*Update as of August 1, 2007*

From Roy
Walt has been out of town for the past two weeks. He wrote the update below while he was gone and just gave it to us. He was traveling up north and attended EAS. Watch here soon for his notes from the trip.


Roy, for me.


NOW, from Walt


August 1, 2007


All 3 very strong. Had added at least a super of honey since harvest in early July.


Some reserve pollen had been consumed, but most of it was still held in reserve.

#2 had 3 deep frames of long term pollen when previously checked in the second deep. The first deep on the bottom board had lobes of L.T. pollen to the bottom of frames below the brood. Outside frames were empty. On this inspection, 2 of the three frames of pollen in the second deep had been replaced with brood. Fierce population. Two frames of mostly brood remained in the third deep of mostly honey. In a couple of weeks those two frames will be backfilled with honey. Two shallows of honey above the triple deeps. When the brood in the third deep is replaced with honey, that deep of honey can be harvested, and one of the shallows above can be lowered for wintering overhead honey. A deep and a shallow of honey can go to the barn for extraction. That would double honey production for that hive to date.


The other two are also adding overhead honey. (a super each).


#3 had so many bees, did not go to the bottom to check pollen reserves. Past sun-down, they were a little “snippy.” (My friend Colleen’s word for mildly defensive). Just checked that they had empty space at the top to maintain motivation.


My interpretation of what I found follows : All three are using some of their reserve pollen to increase population. The fall build up has started. Perhaps the availability of nectar in the field (soybean?) has encouraged an early fall build up. They are definitely taking advantage of that field nectar. Normally, fall build up is not obvious until late August, but it’s been a rough season.


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## Alienor (Mar 16, 2005)

I'm joining this discussion a little late but I was absent from home last months.
So I spent this morning (the last 4 hrs!) with reading all 3 threads.

I'm located in northern Germany where we had also very extraordinary weather conditions in the last 12 months.
Pollen box: since 7 yrs I'm running my hives with 3 mediums for brood and winter storage, in summer topped with some shallow honey supers.
Standard beekeeping here is with one or two mediums, I was called nuts for overwintering with 3 boxes. 
The bottom box is in fall filled with pollen, the top box contains the honey storage and the broodnest is in the middle.
My bees seem to be happy with this.

Pollen: I'm in search of the nutrient data of pollen since more than one year and found nearly nothing.
Corn pollen is poor bee feed because of its lack of lysin, one of the essential amino acids.
If your own food is only corn you will get a lot of serious neurologic symptoms.
A combination of corn & legumes has a biological valency(?) of 99 (from a standard of eggs with 100) and much more better than corn pure (35).
It's a shame that there is no literature for beekeepers available on this topic.
Pollen is the bee's only protein source.
And, as Th.Seeley stated, the bees are "central place foragers".
So we should avoid yards with a large number of hives.
As a result I did cut down the number of hives per yard from 24 to 4-6, and as a side effect increased the honey amount per hive up to 200%...now I have to drive more and need some more time when checking the yards but it is worth it.

Pollen substitute: I'm wondering about the prices for your ingredients.
Here in Germany commercial pollen sub cost around 3€/kg and is not avaiblable in bulk.
Brewers yeast 4.50€/kg, egg yolk powder 8€/kg and glucose syrup 1€/kg.
Real pollen is here about 20€/kg ...
Many thanks to Keith Jarrett for posting his recipe and the convincing pics!
Here in Germany feeding pollen sub is not very common because our bee institutes declared a long time ago that there was no difference in the colonies, neither they were fed or nor.
Nobody questions this 30 yr old statement while the agriculture made big changes.
The variety of pollen sources decreased dramaticly when the cultivation of canola and corn increased. In east germany (the formerly GDR) developed mega-mono-cultures, not as large as in US but too large for our small country.
In former years willow blooming started always at end of march, and canola follows 3-4 weeks later.
This year the bees were about 4 weeks behind the plants in their development, and only few willow pollen came in because there were still too few bees to go out for foraging and heating the brood similar...
April was too hot (30°C instead of 20°C) and no single drop of rain.
So canola blooming was beautiful to look at, but no pollen and no nectar for the bees....
In May it rained from the 1rst to the 31. 
Again only little surplus of nectar and nearly no pollen for the bees.
When I inspected the hives in mid may only little pollen was found and the broodnests were much smaller as usual at this time of the season. 
So I headed to my supplier and bought pollen sub, in 1kg packs.
I started with 1kg/hive.
Every colony "inhaled" that amount over night so I gave them 5kg .
From day #3 on the broodnests increased and I could see how they recovered.
So the main flow was only 3 weeks, since 25th of June it's all over here, one whole month too early this year.
And pollen is going short again, and so I'm now going to make my own pollen sub.
I am very sure that my colonies would be in a critical condition without feeding pollen sub.
And I've never heard that somebody here was forced to feeding pollen sub in mid of the season.
I would prefer to feed real pollen but it's too expensive and too risky to get some radiated stuff from China instead of natural german or european pollen.

Pollen is the most underestimated ressource in the hive but the major one.
A colony can live with short nectar income for a long time but will die off soon if lacking pollen.
*Protein is the limitative factor for all kinds of life in all environments.*
Biology 101.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Roy,

Alienor, great to hear from you again.

Roy, for me


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt

July-30-07
Day with Don T.

(Delayed for revision)

This week, had the opportunity to peek in on another local beek’s hives. Called a long-time beekeeper who was an established honey supplier in this area when I started about 20 years ago. His holdings are about 15 miles due east of me.

Don wanted to make rounds of outyards to add syrup to this seasons’ starters (splits). He was aware that starters in this area often need help during the summer doldrums when all forage is iffy, at best.

In phone conversation, in advance, Don had agreed to support my interest in pollen storage status in this area. He conceded that he pays little attention to pollen foraging. That is not critical to his beekeeping. In this area, pollen is normally plentiful, and there is no need to monitor pollen availability under normal circumstances. This year, a late freeze made pollen monitoring more significant. Virtually all tree sources stopped the first week of April.

Checked about three hives in each of six outyards. All outyards were slightly different in several ways; number of incoming foragers bringing pollen, percentages of colors, intensity of pollen foraging from hive to hive, etc. Bottom line: All outyards have access to a different mix of sources, and all colonies show some differences in pollen gathering motivation.

· Ornamentals in bloom: Althea, hibiscus, bush honeysuckle, crepe myrtle, and assorted annuals. His outyards, like mine, are in sparsely populated areas and have limited access to ornamentals.
· Wild: Buck bush, trumpet vine, and unknown yellow pollen sources.

Observations:
1. Most colonies bringing some pollen colored as ‘2 shades of yellow’ and ‘trumpet vine dirty white’. Most colonies were bringing pollen at a rate of 1 to 3 returning foragers in 10 with pollen. One notable exception was a colony where roughly half had pollen loads. In most cases foragers were bringing nectar, predominately. Sources, unknown.
2. From none to 3 deep frames of long term pollen stores.
3. Levels different from yard to yard.
4. Typically very little fresh pollen at edge of the brood – a few scattered cells.
5. Little, if any, royal jelly in young worker larva cells.

Over lunch, we re-hashed what we saw. Since he winters in a deep and a shallow, I considered his hives vulnerable, and recommended he feed pollen sub. He didn’t sound like he would do that. On leaving, told him I would check back in October to find out if he made the right call. For his sake, I hope he did. More later, if he guessed wrong.

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt

Aug 14, 07

 Took a week away from home to attend EAS in Delaware. Actually, had decided last year to forgo EAS this year, but when my high school reunion fell in the same week in Maryland, elected to make the trip and combine the two objectives. Incentive was increased by advance notice that several of the key players in the CCD investigation were featured as speakers at EAS. I wanted to hear what they had to say about the status of the CCD investigation. Two of those presenters were Dennis Van Engelsdorp of PA and Jeff Pettus of ARS, Beltsville, MD. Got lucky, and had an opportunity to corner both on different breaks in the action, when they were not surrounded by others.

 With only a few minutes with each of them, gave them an introduction to my approach to the CCD cause and got a snail mail address to send them some written stuff and the access route to this thread. If they were interested, they could check in periodically to see how it’s going.

 Dennis remembered that I had left a message on his recorder requesting directions to his sampling of Mr. Hackenbergs’ hives on blueberry pollination in Maine. After hanging up, I regretted not promising to stay out of the way and not impeding progress, while there. He said when we met that there was no way I could be present and not slow down his sampling, so he didn’t respond with directions to the location. And I came home.

 In the few minutes we had on EAS break, Dennis pointed out that my efforts were putting the cart before the horse. He stated, quite strongly, that they should first prove that nutrition is a factor – if indeed it is. And that aspect is part of the investigation. I contended that poor nutrition could be an effect and not the cause. If poor nutrition starts the failure process, that still doesn’t tell us what caused the poor nutrition.

 My worst fear is that the academics will find that nutrition IS a factor and recommend some feeding regimen to offset the dietary deficiency. That would not address what I contend is the root cause – that of use of the Langstroth deep inhibiting a basic survival trait of Apis M. in storing a pollen reserve in the early season when quality pollen is available.

 Feeding might be a reasonable approach for the commercial beek who is going to expose his colonies to less opportunity to do it their way, but is not a good answer for us little guys. Feeding adds cost and time that is unnecessary for us. We have an alternative called the pollen box maneuver that can easily be factored into another early spring hive opening.

That would not help this season’s California circumstance. Early drought inhibited the weed sources that colonies depend on there. If pollen is not available in the field, obviously the colony cannot collect it. Under optimized hive configuration, the bees will suffer the effects of lack of pollen field availability. The point being: the pollen box maneuver will help, but will not cover all possible circumstances. The beekeeper needs to be prepared to supplement protein, when required.

 In the meantime, we wait patiently for release of the info on the “new pathogen.” I expect that pathogen to be an effect of an effect. Found in dead bees, it could easily be twice removed from the cause of CCD. I will be very suspicious of any “cause” that is not related to colony nutrition. Any number of pathogens could be involved in a dying colony. Will have to wait it out. No one that I talked with could, or would, reveal whether the new pathogen is animal, vegetable, or mineral. If they get it right, I suspect we need to add a classification of circumstance.

 Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt

Peggjam

 You may be right about the retirement thing.

 Sorry about the slow response. Didn’t seem urgent at the time, but fall is upon you in NY. With temps breaking 100 here (11 days running) I would welcome a little relief. In western NY, you may have the sometimes frost in a couple weeks, or that guanteed killing cold snap in six weeks. For you it’s urgent.

 In answer to your question, my thoughts are scrambled. Don’t have enough data to form an opinion. Recently, (the last few years) the academic community has finally tuned in to that “other” feed requirement of bees – pollen. What hasn’t been done yet is applying the info to colony management.

 For example: how much pollen is needed to cycle brood on 6 deep frames of brood in pounds or some measure of volume. And at what stage of the season colony operations is it more than needed to just maintain replacement bees during the summer doldrums. Long ways to go yet on this new found subject.

 I can only recommend that you observe incoming pollen and compare the rate to seasons past. In my area of continuing drought this year a pollen shortage is expected, and I may resort to fall feeding of pollen sub. They have had a tough enough year without compounding their woes by neglect in the fall.

 Walt


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Walt


I would guess that what is really needed is some way to compare the quality of pollen available in fall, as to that available in the spring, and then micromanage a high quality pollen subsitute applied during the fall months to compensate for the differance.....trouble is, I haven't found any studies that compare the quality of different types of pollen that are available in different regions of the country. Well, guess it is just do the best one can, and hope for the best.....


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

peggjam sezs:
trouble is, I haven't found any studies that compare the quality of different types of pollen that are available in different regions of the country.

tecumseh replies:
I suspect you would find a good bit of overlap with information accumulated in regards to forage analysis beginning about 25 years ago. until the advent of large volume balers little attention was paid to the quality of hay fed to farm animals (and most especially dairy cattle). when the quality of forage (the more production expected from a particular kind of domestic livestock-the more important quality feedstock becomes) started to be analysized in a number of labs across the us of a, it became quite clear how any number of the pieces of feed stuff puzzle were missing. in some soils the part were just never there and in other soils long term cultivation had mined these components from the soil.

water and soil fertility and ph seem to have been major components to forage quality.

indirectly what I am suggesting to you is that you could have information in regards to the quality of some form of pollen, but this might (and likely would) be a poor estimate of the same kind of pollen in your vicinity.

I would also expect in regards to a honeybees diet that certain micro minerals and amino acids would be the limiting factor.

I suspect a good place to start is by reviewing this: www.honeybee.com.au/Library/pollen/nutrition.html


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I would almost think that in order to have data concerning your own local sources of pollen, that you would have to gather samples of pollen and have them analized for protein content and qualitiy at one of the labs. That could run into some money.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

exactly... if you desired to micromanage the bee diet in regards to protein (pollen) this would be exactly true. on the other hand, if I had a working mental model in regards to the effects of location, soil fertility and ph, plus seasonal (temperature and rainfall) on pollen content (quality) you could in a much more general sense MANAGE for this variation. 

I have ignored/not mention any dietary limitations in regards to micro nutrients in the same diet.... although the same general statement could be made in regard to this component of a honeybees diet.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

tecumseh said:


> exactly... if you desired to micromanage the bee diet in regards to protein (pollen) this would be exactly true. on the other hand, if I had a working mental model in regards to the effects of location, soil fertility and ph, plus seasonal (temperature and rainfall) on pollen content (quality) you could in a much more general sense MANAGE for this variation.
> 
> I have ignored/not mention any dietary limitations in regards to micro nutrients in the same diet.... although the same general statement could be made in regard to this component of a honeybees diet.


So what your saying is if (for example) soil ph had this (either lower or higher protien content) effect on several different types of pollen sources, such as clover, trefoil and alafla, that it would proably also have the same effect on other types of pollen located in the same region?

Ya, I think that you could draw useful conclusions from that in regards to an increase or decrease of pollen quality.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

if you were creating the pollen portion of a diet for sale to the public then I would think some kind of analysis lab work (as peggjam mentioned) would be essential to insure quality of ingredients. if you were creating it for yourself (or some limited local market) then you could look at the condition in your own hives (are pollen reserves adequate this season in terms of quantity and quality), use the referenced source as a guide post and create a pollen substitute or supplement to fill in the gap.

I would suspect the two amino acids that the sourse described as generally deficient will be what I key in on when I put together my own supplement.

I must confess at this point a good deal more information in regards to pollen and how it's quality may vary would be helpful... but sometime you got to go on with the information at hand.

hope the season is treating you all kindly...


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Aug. 21, 2007

Status and commentary

Have been looking forward all summer to monitoring usage of the lower reserve of long-term pollen. It's finally in progress. Last week, there was some evidence that it had started, but this week dipping into the reserve is conspicuous. Under the basic brood chamber there is a lobe of empty cells extending downward to mid frame - primarily in the center of the frame. Scattered in the lobe of empty cells there is new, fresh pollen that I associate with current feed pollen.

That fresh pollen wouldn't begin to feed the brood in the basic deep above. It was mentioned in the last update that fall brood nest expansion had started. Today, brood volume is more surprising. Brood to the sidewalls of the 9 - frame deep! With very little pollen coming in there is no pollen feed frame at the sides of the brood, and they are free to completely fill the frames with brood. I had expected them to possibly expand the broodnest down into the pollen reserve, but, so far, that doesn't seem to be the plan. It may still happen yet.

A deep of brood at this point in the season is highly unusual. In other years, the brood volume could be as small as two deep frames in late August. In those years, the month of September was used to expand the brood nest laterally into adjacent honey to fill the box with bee brood. Typically, brood nest reduction started in early October - rearing wintering bees as they throttled back, and backfilling with nectar/honey as brood receded. (laterally)

The unusual early brood volume is reported here just in case that is a symptom of a pollen shortage. These girls have definitely been on short pollen rations for nearly 5 months. For it to have been any worse, they would have to have been located on a barren island in the ocean. But they haven't given up yet - they are surviving, and putting up honey. Amazing!

After telling Peggjam I was undecided about fall feeding of pollen sub, took along some dry for today's inspection. Although I wanted to see if the raggedy three could cope with this season aided by the lower reserve, I chickened out. Finding more brood volume than could be supported by incoming pollen, elected to feed. It is my nature to look for the easy way - I have neither the time nor inclination to make work for myself. Having mixed two batches earlier with poor results in getting the dough consistency desired, I wanted to try internal dry feed. Tried three different ways to be evaluated later.

#1. Empty frames at the outside of the pollen box were filled by smoothing a handful of the dry pollen sub across the empty comb. That worked well and most of it stayed in place while reinstalling the frame. Quick and easy.

#2. Had no empty frames in the lower deep pollen box. They were filling all empty comb outside the pollen with nectar. that unusual behavior was unexpected, but determined to provide some dry mix, put as much as possible on the top bars of the second level deep brood chamber. Heaping the dry feed on the top bars spilled some down between the frames, but if they want, it can be retrieved from the bottom board.
Not relevant to feeding pollen sub, it was reported earlier that they still had two frames of brood in the third deep of mostly honey. One of those two frames was now filling with nectar, but they still had one full frame of brood. To accelerate changing that frame of brood to honey, more isolation was added by inserting a full shallow of honey from above between the second and third deeps. In years past, a deep of empty comb was kept at the top of the least - strong colony. If there was surplus brood somewhere to get rid of, that or those frames were exchanged for empty frames in reserve at the hive that could use the extra bee power. #2 may still recycle brood in that frame - they are in the fall build up mode, but the isolation provided by the full shallow of honey makes it less likely.

Wrestling that heavy deep off and back on was all box shuffling I needed for today, thank you. For #3, took the easiest way. Lifted off the cover, and put several dippers of dry feed on the top of the deep rim inner cover, and put the cover back on. 
In a week we'll see what disasters these three different application techniques have wrought.

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt

Tecumseh/ Peggjam

Let me throw a little wrinkle in your discussion of fall pollen quality. In the east, the bees depend on the pollen of goldenrod to rear wintering bees. Not all goldenrod is the same. Seems I've read there are something like 20 varieties. Here, the early blooming varieties are ignored by the bees, but they jump on those in bloom in early October. If I trust the bees judgment of quality, that adds another tier of complexity. And that could certainly be different in other areas. Note that E. Mussen in Calif. did not have goldenrod in his list of grades of pollen quality. So, how good is it? Anybody's guess, and variable by variety.

Walt


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

walt adds:
Note that E. Mussen in Calif.

tecumseh replies:
I am not familar with this source... could you provide some more detail.

wives' tales and such:
I did note on the web source I referenced (australia) that pine pollen had the equivalent quality of saw dust... years back old beekeepers from the piney woods a bit east of here (and from east texas going all the way to georgia) use to suggest that sitting a beehive on a monoculture pine plantation was a bit like sitting a hive down on a desert. this detail alone should emphasize that all pollens are not created equal as far as contributing to a honeybees nutritional requirements.

thanks for the goldenrod detail walt.... and thanks for the detail in regards to what you are looking at (brood rearing) at this time of year and what you think it like represents. quite informative...

best to ya' all....


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Our early goldenrod varities have been in bloom for quite some time, without any of the girls showing any intrest. But the later varities are starting to bloom, and intrest is picking up. The only thing is that if it turns wet and cold like it did last year, benifits will be very limited.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Walts-son-in-law said:


> From Walt


Hey Roy, I know what you can get Walt for Christmas this year! 


Laptop . . . laptop . . . laptop . . .


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Roy

My apologies for the timing of the next few posts. Walt gave them to me before he left for California a week and a half ago. What with taking classes in the programming language I use and then making up that time at work, I have rarely turned the computer on once I was home in the evening. Tonight I am catching up.

I have left the original dates on these so that you will know when they should have been posted, as I am making no attempt to put them in the correct order.

Roy, for me


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

And now, from Walt:

27 August 07

Alienor
 Thanks for your input on this thread. There was no reason to believe that climate change was limited to N. America. Earlier, when you reported that your season got off to a bad start, I suggested that we compare notes at season end. But now, our seasons are a matter of public record (via this thread.) Thanks, again.

To All
 For those of you that do not know, Alienor is a very savvy beek. The Germans are serious about their beekeeping. She recognized the value of the concepts in the “manuscript” and translated it into German for distribution in Europe. Her experts will be testing the concepts while the American PhDs scoff and ignore.

 I have no way of knowing whether any more than a half dozen keyboard jockeys are tuning in periodically to this effort. A grunt or two from some would help motivate me to continue. There’s nothing in this activity for me but satisfying a curiosity. It’s the reporting on this thread that is a nuisance for both Roy and myself.

 Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt

Art of Beekeeping

This was meant to be Walt's first article exclusively for the POV section on thisa site. It is now posted there.

http://www.beesource.com/pov/wright/index.htm

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt

Update as of 28 Aug 07

 On the overnight of 24/25, a spate of thunderstorms wet down the area – some areas more than others. Reported as “breaking” the drought, rain amounts fell far short of that. Wilted soybeans did perk up, and any change was welcome.

 Tuesday is the time for my weekly check of pollen reserve consumption. To recap, it was reported a month ago that the three colonies were apparently operating on long-term pollen stored at the upper/outsides of the broodnest. Very little incoming fresh pollen. A week ago, they were using the reserve (long term) stored below the brood nest (upper, central edge). At that time, the lobes of consumption did not reach the sidebars and just penetrated to about half the frame depth. Some fresh pollen was spotty where long term had been consumed.

 This week, the lobes of consumed LT had expanded to the side bars at the top of the frame and the bottom bar in the center. In addition to the spotty fresh pollen, there were a few cells of larval brood mixed in. Still more empty cells than those with either fresh pollen or brood. They are consuming their lower pollen reserve like there’s no tomorrow.

 Makes me think feeding pollen sub makes sense now. Preliminary evaluation of feeding dry PS internal to the hive follows:

 #1. Two empty frames on the left side of the pollen box were filled with dry PS and replaced. On this inspection, the second frame in, on the inside side, had been used. The consumption displayed the same pattern of lobing from the top as adjacent frames of LT pollen. The other side of that frame and the outside frame were still filled – if somewhat discolored. It appeared as if the colony were using the pollen sub like it was part of the long term reserve.

 #2. Had been given all the dry PS that could be applied on the top bars of the basic brood nest deep (second deep of 3.) Today, there was no sign of any residue from that application.

 #3. Had not touched their dose of PS applied in the “attic”.

 Preliminary conclusion: Feeding pollen sub above the brood nest appears to be best, but loose on the top bars is not the best way. It would be better to apply the PS in a way that the beek could monitor consumption. Scratch all three techniques above.

 Will be heading west in this week to meet with some folks more knowledgeable on this subject than I. That means I’ll likely miss next week’s peek in. But when I get back, depending on field pollen availability, I’ll be feeding that “other” stuff.

 Walt


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

grunt, grunt...


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## Robert166 (Mar 12, 2005)

I would chime in as well but it is not wise for the student to interrupt the teacher. You are doing a great job, I look forward to reading your posts.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

August 31, 07

 The August ABJ issue had an article by Randy Oliver that is more informative on protein use by the bees then all the reference books put together. In it, he explains the relevance of Vitellogenin. All news to me. Making plans to visit him, pending Part II in the September issue, I felt I had to meet with him. He has a good handle on the recent academic efforts and I have some practical observations to integrate into those scientific studies. Not the sort of thing that would be practical on the phone.

 According to recent (mostly since 2003) investigative research, the bees store reserve protein in their bodies for winter use. I was aware of the fattening up process in the older literature, but the implication of that older lit. was that storing of that protein in their fat bodies supported wintering of the individual bees.

 Current data suggests that protein stored the fat bodies (Vitellogenin) is used to generate the “bee milk/royal jelly” for rearing of late winter brood. There are still a few holes in that approach, such as how the winter nurse bees supply head glands with that protein stored in the body. But we’ll assume the current research is valid. It answers some of my prior questions, like there doesn’t seem to be any deliberate storage of pollen for the winter. If the storage of winter protein is inside the wintering bees, there would be no need to store pollen in cells in the fall. 

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Blurb From California

 Spent the afternoon with Randy Oliver. He is a commercial beekeeper just northeast of Sacramento at 2000 ft on the slopes of the Sierras.

 He has recently been published in several articles in both B Culture and ABJ. I couldn’t compliment him enough for taking the time from his busy schedule to write those articles. Just researching the subjects of colony pollen needs and application of the protein would be a time – consuming effort, but he has gone the extra mile and put it in the mags we see. A significant contribution!

 Went to see him to alert him to my observations about the natural tendency of the European bee to store pollen below the brood nest in the early season. He would not likely get that information from the experts. When he lifted out a frame to check for fresh pollen, I pointed out the characteristic double deep brood frame with brood all the way across the bottom bar and honey in the upper, outside corners. That gave me a chance to reinforce my contention that the deep Langstroth frame is a problem for the bees. Although there was pollen coming in at that yard, there was very little on hand. We agreed that he should be feeding pollen sub. More on R. Oliver, later.

 Walt


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

> Went to see him to alert him to my observations about the natural tendency of the European bee to store pollen below the brood nest in the early season. He would not likely get that information from the experts. 


Well Walt,

If you had a chance to read our fall ABJ report from last year you will see who's the pollen guy . 

Glad to see these Johnny come lately are getting up to speed.

Some of the ABJ readers were calling me a nut for feeding that much pollen, well.... thats what I was intending to pollinate.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

*The Pollen Box Maneuver*

From Walt

The Pollen Box Maneuver

We have not found time to revise the original article with this year’s observations. The following condensation is provided as a interim description of concepts.

Reasons for the maneuver

A. Our bees developed their survival traits for life in the forest. Pollen is scarce in the forest in the fall.

B. Storing a pollen reserve below the brood nest is a natural survival trait of the European honey bee. It is stored early when forest pollen is plentiful (green up).

C. The pollen reserve supports rearing fall bees for wintering.

D. The Langstroth deep interferes in the early season storing of the reserve. Colony preference for rearing brood to the bottom bar of deep frames overrides their need to generate the pollen reserve below.

E. By moving a shallow box of brood to the bottom in the early season, the colony readily replaces that brood with long-term-stored pollen and the reserve is created.
When it was decided to help them store the pollen reserve, we were wintering in two deeps and shallow at the top (more overhead honey than they needed if they wintered in the bottom deep). The first action was to replace the top deep with two shallows of honey and leaving off the extra shallow of honey at the top. Changing to that wintering configuration across the board took a little over two years, but the new configuration was beneficial in many ways. One prominent advantage was the basic brood nest stayed in the single deep year round.

Sequence follows:

A. Checkerboard overhead honey very early - when reliable pollen is coming in.

B. CB accelerates brood nest expansion upward by virtue of less honey to consume to make space for brood.

C. When the lowest CBed shallow has brood filling most center frames, move that shallow below the basic brood nest deep. The timing is flexible with the colony build up rate, but it is easier done before many additional boxes are added above.

D. When done this way, all brood remains contiguous and none is separated from either feed stores. When the box of expansion brood is lowered to the bottom board, that segment of the cluster goes with it, and the top part of the cluster is lowered by the shallow depth. Sit back and watch them grow with confidence that pollen will replace the brood at the bottom, and the colony will have the benefit of that reserve in late summer.

E. The pollen in the lowered box will be consumed in the early fall to support rearing winter bees. Leave it in place (empty) over the winter. It serves the same purpose as the slatted rack (isolation from the bottom board/entry). In late winter, when CBing overhead honey, the box and the empty frames are already there and handy. Their use for CB lowers the brood chamber fto the bottom board to start the next season. It may be only a couple weeks before the shallow of brood is lowered for the current season. The maneuver is most effective if accomplished while the colony is in the mode of brood nest expansion.

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt

12 Sept 07

Update on status of reserve pollen consumption by the three pollen box colonies. Missed last week's inspection by being in CA. This week, it rained on the first full day back. Rain is good news. Fields have greened up again. Early goldenrod is blooming - of little interest to the bees. Flower heads have attracted lightening bugs and an even greater accumulation of an unknown black beetle of about the same dimensions.

While I was gone, Small Paul had harvested the surplus honey and changed out the cull boxes with new boxes. They are now good - looking hives. We'll now call them the "test three." Excessive daytime temps had delayed the renovation. We normally get a few cooler days in late August to alert us that fall is just around the corner, but that didn't happen this year.

On this inspection, only went to the bottom on #1 and #3 - consider 2 of 3 to be representative. Both had consumed the remainder of their long-term pollen and were storing multi-colored feed pollen immediately below the brood above. The area that had scattered cells of fresh pollen at the last inspection was now filling in to be almost solid. Saw no brood in the pollen box frames. The scattered larval brood that I saw, or thought I saw, were no longer present. Only fresh feed pollen in the center pollen box frames. Had taken the remaining dry pollen sub with me to feed if it looked like they needed it. With increasing fresh pollen stored and increasing pollen due in the field in the next two weeks, decided they were ok. Did not give them any more of the dry Feed Bee. The drought subsiding was a contributing factor in the decision.

The basic brood chamber deep was the same on both hives. The outside frame was filling with nectar on both sides of the box. The inside frames, seven in my nine-frame system, were filled with brood. Saw Momma in both hives, and she was going about her business with aplomb.

Both colonies had more population and brood volume than seen in prior years at this point in the season. Shuffling boxes to the bottom put a cloud of bees in the air. In spite of the major disturbance, they were not very defensive - one sting on the back. This is out of character for feral stock. Typically wild bees are very defensive or protective of their winter stores in the early fall, especially if you remove frames for inspection. Just another observations in the "for what its worth" category. A few more bees than normal did escort me to the truck, but they showed no intent to sting.

On this inspection, no drones were seen. While there was no deliberate effort to look for them, usually a few of the dummies get in the way on hive reassembly. Saw none. Alienor reported via PM, earlier in the season, that her bees were throwing out drone brood.

Randy Oliver, in one of his articles, reports that curtailing drone rearing is an indication of pollen shortage. Rearing drones is a burden on colony resources and is reduced in times of shortage. Obviously, rearing workers takes priority.

To Summarize: Its too early to get ****y about the potential of these three colonies to winter well. They might well fade yet. But at this point, they appear to have done well, so far, in a very bad season. Their work-arounds, which we may never fully understand, have served them well.


Walt


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## Dale Hodges (Jul 13, 2007)

I'm and old beekeeper(1963), so I get to say "in the old days". OK, I'll won't say that. I can remeber 2 or 3 frames(deep) packed with pollen, to the point they were a problem. I havn't seen this in years. 2 years ago I decided to keep a pollen pattie on my hives at all times. My thinking being, if they needed it they would eat it. If they had plenty of fresh coming in they would ignore it. Since then I have been feeding pollen almost full time. Of course there have been times when it isn't touched for weeks, but I'm amazed how much they're using it. I thought this was a local problem, but reading this post I'm wondering if it isn't more wide spread. this year for example, I've noticed the bees aren't even touching the spanish needle. They've always worked this stuff real hard in the past. I've got a feww hives on pepper tree, and I've only counted a handful of bees on the bloom, they usually get real excited about pepper tree. No answers,just questions,I've seen just about everything that blooms around here have good years and bad years, but never at the same time. I hope I didn't get to far off the subject, just wondering if "low"pollen could be weather related.


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

I'm enjoying this thread. All hives are bringing in a lot of pollen. I have one weak one and they have some pollen. The hive is real light and I'm feeding syrup (sugar) as fast as they'll take it. No robbing but the hive is still light. Numbers are slowly going up. This hive is a ccd survivor from a nuc that was really strong. So far the numbers are improving, slowly. They have not touched any substitute patties, but, like I said, bringing in a lot of pollen. Most returning have various shades of pollen. Not sure if this is a good thing yet or not. Or what else I need to worry about. 

Oh yeah, there was about a two week break in brood in this colony.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt

Wed. 19 Sept - Status Update

The weekly check of status was limited to inspection of #2. Last week 1 and 3 were penetrated to the pollen box and fresh feed pollen was seen accumulating below the full frames of brood in the deep above. This is in consonance with prior years observations of pollen box use. For instance, when the brood nest is being reduced in the fall pursuant to close out, frames below contain fresh pollen when the frames above contain brood. When the brood frame in the deep has no brood and is filling with nectar, the frame below in the pollen box no longer have pollen. There is sometimes some residual pollen below the last 1 or 2 frames of brood at closeout, but in early winter the pollen box is essentially empty comb.

So, 1 and 3 are doing pretty much what was expected from observations in the past. But #2 is marching to a different drummer. First a little background info:

#2 was wintered in a double beep. Although I personally do not like the effects of that configuration, it resulted from a snag in last year's harvest. When taking off honey the upper deep still had two frames of brood (that happened again this year). Last year that deep of honey was just left on for wintering. (This year took corrective action to harvest it later in the season by separation from the basic brood nest.) Against my better judgment, #2 wintered in the two deeps. In late winter this year, that deep of honey was checkerboarded for swarm prevention - yielding a triple deep brood nest for this season. As the brood nest expanded upward, the bottom deep was used to store the pollen reserve. (Described earlier) The climbing brood nest actually caused them to add a couple frames of brood in the box foundation inserted under the accumulated nectar in drawn comb above. We'll come back to the timing hiccup after finishing this description of #2 status.

#2 had expanded the brood volume down into the lower deep of what had been the pollen reserve. Pulled out two alternate frames from below the brood that was in the second deep, and both had a lobe (on both sides) of solid young worker larvae. The lobe was not quite as large as the long-term pollen had been, but nearly so. Momma had been busy downstairs since the last check. 

It was reported in discussion earlier about feeding dry pollen sub that #2 was filling outside frames with nectar in the pollen box. That was a precursor to expanding the brood nest downward, but at the time it did not register. I was aware that when expanding either up or down into empty comb nectar is placed there first. This can be seen when an empty on the bottom is reversed in late winter. At least a band of feed nectar is placed above the cells prepared for eggs. No eggs are laid until feed nectar at the upper, outside is in place. Then, the dome of brood is populated in a batch.

The lobes of new brood down into the deep pollen box are an upside-down version of that same process. They threw me off the track by accumulating fresh pollen in that area at the last inspection two weeks ago. That area is now solid young larvae. Fresh pollen is being stored outside the lobes of brood. An interpretation of this turn of events will come later.

Now, back to the spring timing hiccup: The bees and the trees were both at least two weeks ahead of schedule in 2007 because of an unusually mild late winter. The late, harsh freeze came a week into April after the hardwoods were well into spring leaf-out or what I call "green-up". Both the trees and the bees were stopped in their tracks.

The trees had to put out new growth - taking four to six weeks, depending on species. No blooms on any that put on buds in the fall for early blooms. None!

The bees that normally synchronize their development schedule to the vegetation development suddenly found no forage available in the field. They had already passed reproductive cut off as indicated by wax purging of wax makers generated for reproductive swarming and not needed for that purpose. Checkerboarded earlier, they had abandoned the urge to swarm.

Neither small Paul nor I had enough drawn comb for maximum production. He is a three year novice and is still using foundation across the board, but had a stack of shallow supers of F ready for the season.

Wanting to use some of his foundation to supplement my remaining drawn comb, and use it where it had the best chance of being drawn, a shallow of F was inserted between the top of the brood nest and accumulated build up nectar above. This was done when the normal bee development schedule would produce the start of wax-making, or the start of main flow. That's normally three weeks after repro c/o. If main flow had started on the pre-freeze schedule, it would have been two weeks early this year. But it was not. Instead the main flow started about on the first of May, as it normally does. This means the bees stretched the lull from three to five weeks, and nothing happened in the foundation for two weeks. By order of colony overwinter strength, all three used the foundation differently when the flow started.

#1, the least strong, did nothing with their foundation for two weeks, but almost filled and capped it toward the end of the one month flow.

#2, of medium strength, expanded brood into two frames of foundation early and later filled and capped the super with honey. Early in the flow, like #1, they were more interested in completing supers of build up nectar above. The late brood nest expansion has been treated earlier in this thread, but is another bee schedule aberration. Typically, brood nest reduction starts at Repro c/o. At least both 1 and 2 were expanding the brood nest four weeks later. #3 was not checked for this feature because of the extra accumulation of overhead boxes.

#3, the strongest, started on their box of foundation at flow start, and completed it in two weeks. They were given another immediately above that they almost completed before flow end. 

At first harvest in July, the yield was proportional: #1 - 2 supers; #2 - 3 supers; #3 - 4 supers (one a medium); for something upscale of 70 pounds average.

Another 150 pounds in the second harvest pushed the average over a 100 lbs. Not too bad for a really bad season. For most beeks in this area, using standard management, 100 lbs is an elusive target production in average years. Some harvested almost nothing this year.

The intent of this thread has pretty much run its course - that of recording the sequence of application by the bees of their pollen reserve. Outstanding still is a description of the benefits of that reserve - how well they winter. There is no rush on that, but I anticipate an update on cluster size in November, and again in Feb.

In the meantime, I'm digesting both this season and THE REPORT of an association between CCD and a new virus. I'm definitely not ignoring the report, and will likely add some commentary on this thread. Was pleased to see that the report was quick to point out that the IAPV did not appear to be acting alone - that is without other contributing "stresses".

A short blurb on stress is in work, and an assessment of what the bees have been trying to tell me this season will come as time permits. Other obligations will slow that some.


Walt


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

While all this is interesting, what, if anything, does any of it has to do 
with CCD, or being any sort of "solution" to the CCD problem?

Other than a general faith in the practices as being both optimal
and appropriate for areas other than TN, what specific factors
here are claimed to have any impact on CCD or the prevention
of CCD?

I'd like a short list please, as the lengthy and detailed discussion
seems to lack context, and needs a "set of bullet points" to let
the reader break things down into sections of interest that
would apply to each claim or belief stated.


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## beehoppers (Jun 16, 2005)

This reader is enjoying this thread. 
Especially the lengthy discussions. I don't need bullet points. 
I understand it is common knowledge with respect to CCD that a strong healthy hive is the best defense. I really appreciate what Walt and friends are doing and don't mind where it is put especially since I know where to find it.
Al


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

The headache that was caused by the asprin company is what CCD is. You guys can dance around modern beekeeping practices all day, but the fact remains this pharmacy giant has got alot of global swarmers gettin ready to sting and get their own, "crawfish payoff". I sure do miss cloridaine and dursband; it killed what it was aiming at!


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Jim Fischer said:


> While all this is interesting, what, if anything, does any of it has to do
> with CCD, or being any sort of "solution" to the CCD problem?
> 
> Other than a general faith in the practices as being both optimal
> ...


From Walt

Jim Fischer


Welcome back, Jim. Missed you, lately. If you go back through this thread, you will find that I predicted, where we are on the CCD investigation. A pathogen has been identified as associated with CCD, and we are no closer to the cause, and even further from a fix. We have no fixes for a virus.


I'm just puttsying along reporting on the benefits of the Pollen box and throwing out a few observations that might be relevant as we go. (Retired from active beekeeping.)


The "team" is actively pursuing nutrition as a contributor to CCD. Should they conclude it might be, a partial fix is already confirmed by Old Walt.


I feel no obligation to provide the "bullets" requested. Application of this thread to CCD is being written now, and will hit the streets soon.

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

beehoppers said:


> This reader is enjoying this thread.
> Especially the lengthy discussions. I don't need bullet points.
> I understand it is common knowledge with respect to CCD that a strong healthy hive is the best defense. I really appreciate what Walt and friends are doing and don't mind where it is put especially since I know where to find it.
> Al


From Walt

Beehoppers

Thanks, I needed that.

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Status Update Sept 26, 07


Went through all three on this inspection. Having short-cut the last few inspections by not checking all three at the same time, wanted one last inspection that compared those with a super (1 & 3) with #2 having a deep pollen box. 1 & 3 do not look like they intend to rear brood in their pollen box. #3 has a medium super and #1 a shallow. When the monitoring of pollen box started, I was pleased that these three had three different wintering configurations for comparison. #3 could still elect to rear brood in their medium.


#2 looking like they intend to winter in the lower deep, which was their pollen box all summer. The second deep which was their basic brood chamber is now acquiring more interspersed nectar among the brood cells. If the trend continues, and if there is a decent fall flow, the second deep will fill with wintering honey. And they will prepare the bottom deep (this year's pollen reserve) for the winter brood nest. 

Last inspection - out the window. Now, I will have to follow-up on that process. If they (#2) do as expected, it will support the prior year observation that the bees much prefer to rear brood on deep frames. Care to place your bet? Only offering 2 to 1 odds.


This time, looking for drones was deliberate. Saw two drones in the three colonies. Plenty of workers, but an obvious shortage of adult drones. They were opened in the morning when the drones would normally be at home. However, they are rearing drones again. Saw quite a few bullet cappings. Apparently, prosperity has returned.


Increasing field pollen availability is resulting in more fresh pollen on hand, and presumably, they are collecting more than their day to day needs, for the first time since early April. A break-through of major importance!


How much of this renewed prosperity that can be attributed to the pollen reserve is difficult to assess. It should come as no surprise that one of my reasons for coming out of retirement was to tie CCD to colony nutrition. When "fall dwindle" was the prominent failure mechanism, I was fairly sure that the pollen box was relevant. The experts did not recognize that a procedure had been in place for several years to improve fall nutrition. From what they write, it can also be concluded that they do not consider that our bees survival format is based on forest survival. 


Jump down from the soap box, Walt.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Season Assessment (Preliminary) Part 1


The following assessment of the ‘07 season and effects of the pollen box reserve on it are naturally biased. As the Daddy of that concept, I have a vested interest in promoting the concept, but an effort will be made to be objective. This might turn out to be a test of your perception. Look for any indication of bias on my part.


To start, an indication of difference in the bees from yesteryear to now is appropriate. That difference was noted in the early season, and reported earlier on this thread. In some ways it dilutes my persuasion for application of the pollen box. Twenty years ago, when I was reading comb in a effort to break the code of the swarm process, very little pollen was seen above the expansion dome of brood. The brood expansion dome was surrounded by liquid feed (thinned honey) in a band and outside the feed band was the capped honey they were expanding into. No pollen upstairs. The fresh, feed pollen was outside the brood in the basic brood chamber below.


Those bees were feral stock-collected from wherever they could be found. It seemed important to me to use feral stock. Those bees that maintained, or reverted to, their ancestral instincts, and were not selected by a queen breeder for specific traits were what I wanted for my studies. The three colonies this year were feral, natural swarms, (20 years later) but they did not store pollen as remembered. It was reported earlier on this thread that they stored substantial pollen around the expansion dome. By the time I took an interest, this upstairs pollen was all long-term. So, why the difference? It's possible the selection of bees for production had also selected for upstairs pollen storage. If you concede that the best producers wintered well, that could happen. Understanding that the Lanstroth deep inhibits accumulation of the lower reserve, those that store pollen upstairs have the survival or wintering advantage.


The test three did fairly well for essentially the production period and summer doldrums on their upstairs reserve with almost no incoming pollen. They survived and stored some honey without tapping their lower reserve in the pollen box. Their reluctance to use the lower pollen reserve might indicate that the reserve is dedicated to fall build up and protected for that purpose.


The reserve was used in August to support fall brood nest expansion to rear wintering bees. A full deep of brood that early also seemed irregular. That didn't agree with what I remember from the days of detailed observation.


A few under-recognized observations from yesteryear make the early fall population advantageous.


1. The colony adjusts the fall population to provide a cluster size that is in consonance with cavity size and stores.


2. The colony winters best when the fall broodnest is backfilled with nectar concurrently with brood nest closeout.


3. Fattening up the bees for wintering is a firm requirement.


The critical factor of the above three needs of the colony is calendar time. Frost/freeze termination of forage is unstoppable. There is limited time to meet survival requirements. As you go northward into a shorter season, the criticality becomes more acute.


Will not spend much time on 1. above. You only have to consider the fall population of the nuc to be wintered versus a double deep. Both appear to be filled with concentrated bees in the fall. The colony that doesn't have enough bees rears brood longer and fails to get the brood nest properly backfilled. The colony with ample bees can close down the brood nest earlier and have a better chance of getting the brood nest prepared.


Keep in mind that the fall colony is not obligated to use all the forage available during the fall flow. They are motivated by survival requirements. When all three requirements above are completed early, they can relax and settle in.


Item 3. above is more easily satisfied with a strong forager force to gather the needed pollen. Again, the earlier the better.


I suspect that one of the reasons that we have been able to ignore pollen needs for so long is that most U.S. areas have a fall flow. It's almost good enough, but it doesn't give the bees the lead time necessary to get winter preps done on their schedule. If they have to wait for the fall flow, they are already behind schedule. I consider August summer time, but the bees apparently consider it fall. That surprises me, but it shouldn't. Their survival format is complex and slow - moving. Do they not start build up for reproductive swarming months before the swarm release schedule? Why should I be surprised that fall preps for wintering start in August?


That's enough for this preliminary blurb. Think about it. "To be continued."


Walt


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I understand it is common knowledge with respect to CCD that a 
> strong healthy hive is the best defense.

Yes, of course this is being said. What else might they say, given
that they can only state that there is a "correlation" between 
Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus and incidence of CCD, and have to work
hard to position this correlation so that it glitters in the sun like
causation, or glares so much that it makes the viewer squint, so
that the lack of proof for the claim is less obvious.

They don't have a clue how we might avoid CCD, so the advice
to "_maintain healthy colonies_" is much like telling us to get lots of 
sleep, drink plenty of fluids, and eat our vegetables as a way of 
avoiding being hit by meteors.

I'm glad to hear that Walt is writing up "Application of this thread to CCD".
I've looked hard for something that actually had a connection to CCD in all this,
but so far, all I've seen is more "eat your vegetables". 

Two points:

a) It took no great insight to conclude that a pathogen was at work. Everyone
who had even a minimal 4th-hand description of how quickly the problem 
spread between hives knew we had a pathogen here. Even I was able to
say "anything that spreads this fast just has to be a virus" back in March 07
(printed in a Jun 07 _Bee Culture_ article).

b) Walt seems to be focusing on "nutrition", a generally laudable thing, but
nutrition (as represented by pollen protein levels) has not been found to
be consistently low in CCD-affected colonies. In fact, the large patches
of very healthy-looking brood that is a common feature of CCD cases
seems to refute claims that "poor nutrition" might be a valid contributing
factor in CCD.

c) Anyone who has been keeping bees for a living longer than a few years
can eloquently describe the impact of bad weather on pollen, and the
resulting malnourished bees. The symptoms are obvious. We don't
seem to have that here, from either a weather aspect, or a observable
symptoms aspect.

Walt doesn't have CCD. Good for him, but this does not imply that any set
of practices used in his local area have been keeping CCD at bay.


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## beehoppers (Jun 16, 2005)

And I think it is in the propolis. No one seems to be testing the propolis. I said that here a long time ago....

The pollen box maneuver looks fascinating. 
Checkerboarding 3 medium brood box Russians has worked great here no swarming and kept the CCD away...


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Season Assessment (Preliminary) Part 2

Application to CCD

This is my forth stab at attacking a very complex subject. A piece was written on the three stresses identified in the report: Varroa, insecticides and nutrition. As it applied to nutrition, what I wrote got so involved that it became unmanageable and was scrapped. A piece on trouble-shooting jargon, and another on stress met the same fate!
This time, the intent is to limit the discussion to one subject and its complex enough by itself: Timing of bee feeding bee. A few background statements are offered to get started.

CCD is a fall phenomenon. Fall comes after the summer doldrums when forage is scarce. That's all the reason you need to investigate nutrition as a contributor.

The colony has a prescribed seasonal agenda for meeting survival requirements. To insure survival those milestones must be met in a timely manner.

The literature is big on the age-related capabilities of individual workers. As the worker gets older, physiological changes prepare them for a succession of changing duties.

Immediately jumping off in the wrong direction, the V mite can cause colony collapse, without any help. As much as been written about Varroa, I have not seen a description of the failure mechanism that causes collapse. Have not had a V mite collapse myself but a near miss suggested that the failure mechanism was loss of a full brood cycle of worker bees. If that's not correct, I'm confident that one of you who is better informed will let me know. The rationale for my guess was that if they lost a brood cycle of workers, the colony would not have the nurse bees for the next cycle. Even if you killed every mite in the hive, and they had ample bees and a functional queen, collapse was inevitable. The workers to rear the next cycle were missing.

The excursion on the tangent of varroa collapse was deliberate. It was intended to get you started thinking about the role of nurse bees in the overall scheme of colony food processing. Reading between the lines of Randy Oliver's two-part, ABJ article, and some of his references, it seems that nurse bees perform a necessary function in overall colony health. They eat the pollen and metabolize it into a substance that can be fed to other colony members. From brood to queen (workers and drones included) all colony members take protein nourishment on a regular basis from the nurse bees. Foragers take their protein ration overnight. One could conclude that the presence of pollen in the CCD colony in decline does not necessarily indicate that the foragers are well fed-protein wise. If the middle man in the process of metabolism, the nurse bee, is missing or handicapped by circumstance, colony nutrition suffers.

I won't go into the details of the work-arounds of the colony for pollen shortage conditions. I support Randy O's recommendation that you read a compilation of 130 papers generated over the years:

Scimicle, T & K. Crailshein (2004)
http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/apido/pdf/2004/03/M4009.pdf

The timing of the age-related worker capabilities plays into this scenario. The nurse bees are most proficient at their job when 5 to 16 days old. That suggests that they need available pollen in that time period. And the typical colony maintains about a six-day supply on hand. Pretty touchy. Weather disturbances can and do disrupt the pollen on hand.

The thread started out to apply weather disturbances to CCD via nutrition. Follow up on this seasons weather impact is still outstanding. No rush. The damage, if any, has already taken its toll. If you have experienced CCD symptoms this season, you could do us a favor, if you would. PM us with the E-mail address of your state climatology office. We have run aground on several enquiries already.

The timing of the colony seasonal objectives also is a factor to be considered. The established colony emerges from winter in wide open brood nest expansion to produce the population for reproductive swarming early in forage availability. Brood nest reduction precedes swarm issue. Then they shift to restocking honey stores in late spring/early summer. Mid summer, when forage is scarce, they go into an idle period, often reducing brood volume further to conserve stores. In late summer, they need to expand the brood nest again to rear young, wintering bees before the fall brood nest shut down.

I don't get a warm feeling that the experts recognize these seasonal ups and downs. When, in the season, the experiment is performed affects results. Further, I have seen studies performed on packages acquired with funding for the experiment. The starter colony, operating in the establishment mode is not representative of the overwintered, established colony. Objectives are different.

It was reported earlier in this thread that the population was less than proportional to brood volume during the early pollen absence. One of the colony work-arounds reported in the referenced paper is cannibalism of brood. The protein invested in brood is recycled for general colony survival. In retrospect, it seems that the lack of bees upstairs is indeed an indication of pollen shortage.

Read the paper above and let it soak in. We'll treat a few more tidbits as time wears on. We have all winter.

"To Be Continued"

Walt


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Walts-son-in-law said:


> From Walt:
> 
> Walt wrote,
> 
> ...


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Status Oct. 5, 07

Made another round, with Don T. On this pass, he was removing feeder cans from his starters and distributing the season assets from haves to have-nots. If a production colony had two supers of honey overhead and the starter had none, some frames of honey were removed from the established and moved to this season's splits. Checked three outyards.

I had two colonies in mind to check. One had no pollen on hand and the other was bringing pollen at about the 50% level on the last pass. The starter with no pollen on hand appeared to be OK, but needed some overhead honey. They got some - maybe five shallow frames. The colony in a different outyard that was bringing the most pollen before was really leaning into it. At least 80% of foragers were coming in with full pollen loads. At least five foragers in a row (twice in 10 seconds) hit the landing board with full pollen loads. Does this mean that some colonies have a better appreciation of pollen needs?

His bees did not have nearly the population of the test three. I considered asking him if he wanted to see what a strong fall colony looked like, but thought better of it. He didn't support midsummer pollen shortage by feeding pollen sub - as expected. He may experience more winter loss than he's accustomed to, but that remains to be seen, At this point, they look like they will make it, with smaller winter clusters than normal.

Earlier in the week, did peek in on #2. They are progressing on their decision to winter in their lower deep. More nectar in their second deep. Neglected to mention that Small Paul had added Apistan strips, syrup feeders at the top, and menthol crystal bags below the feeders concurrently with the box change out.

It amazes me that menthol crystals are still being used for T mite control. Tried it 15 years ago. When the effects on brood volume were apparent, couldn't get it out of the colonies fast enough. The bees can't stand the overpowering stench, and all brood was at the other end of the hive body. I’m a plunger. If something seems like a good idea, it is applied across the board. Getting the menthol out of 130 colonies, ASAP, was a strain, but the colonies recovered. 

I’ll be missing for a couple weeks.

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Roy, for Walt

Status 17 Oct 07

Returned from a trip to Nebraska on the 15th. Sunny with some puffies, went directly to check running board traffic on the test three. Was disappointed that very little pollen was coming in. This is the time under normal circumstances when pollen foraging peaks. A light frost on the day I left (the 10th) and the continuing drought had apparently reduced pollen availability in the field. Saw very little of their normal sources from the road. Goldenrod was discolored and saw very little small white aster. The bad season continues.

Mixed up the remaining Feed Bee. As before – overshot on sugar water and had a sticky mess. Apportioned it for the three colonies as related to population and presumably need. On inspection, all three had a good stash of pollen on hand – most of it long-term. They had been busy while I was away. Gave them the pollen sub anyway. Perhaps they didn’t need it, but saw no reason to think it would hurt. In a week I expect it to disappear.

#1 was reducing their broodnest. They had only one full super of honey overhead, and I’ve already reported that colonies adjust population in the fall to be commensurate with cavity size and stores.

#2 and #3, with at least 2 full supers of honey overhead were just beginning to reduce brood volume. Outside frames of honey were being capped and the second frame in, on both sides, was mostly pollen. Normal, but late. Interior frames of mostly brood in mid October makes me think they might not have time before the killing freeze to get the broodnest backfilled with nectar. They may need to be fed syrup in early November, while feed can be moved to the broodnest.

Besides the feeding to fill the broodnest, there is another lesson in the above for the novice. That is: Establish the wintering configuration in early fall. Remove surplus honey and pinch them down to winter quarters as early as August. This gives the colony the lead time necessary to adjust the stores and population for their winter volume. Trust the bees to get it right, if you are not scrambling their configuration.

There is, however, a configuration change that is justified in late summer. If you are addicted to the double deep for wintering, and the lower deep is sparsely used, reverse it to the top. Lower the broodnest to the bottom. This action motivates overhead honey storage above to provide honey for late winter growth. If the fall flow provides nectar in your area, and the colony has sufficient forage force, the colony will winter better and require less feeding of syrup.

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt

Just thought I would share this with any who are monitoring this thread:

There will be two shows on CCD this Sunday (tomorrow) on TV. 

For those who don't have access to a schedule:

The 60 minute show will be on October 28, 7PM EST
The PBS show "Silence of the Bees" October 28, 8PM EST


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Part 3

Musing on Virus

The "report" identified an association between CCD and Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus. I know very little about viruses in general, but an introductory treatment of concepts needs to precede a discussion of the "Australian Connection". (Coming up in Part 4) Be advised that this blurb is prepared by someone with limited knowledge of subject.

We deal with viruses on a day-to-day basis. The common cold, flu, and other afflictions are virus based. There is no immunization against the common cold (which may be a group of different viruses) and flu shots are typically a year behind the flu of the day. Since it takes time to culture sufficient virus to incorporate in the flu shot, this year’s flu shot may not provide protection against the strain of flue virus making the rounds this year. The point here is that new, and different, flu-type viruses appear on a regular basis.

A couple of news releases that have appeared in the last ten years in the newspaper have some relevance. In one, the scientists studying extraterrestrial soil/rock samples came to the conclusion that the elements of life had a tendency to gravitate together to form life. Very little details were provided in that news release, but it came from NASA, and I have an allegiance to that organization from years of working there. Life is reported to have begun in the sea. If the "gravitation" concept holds up to scrutiny, origin of life in the seas makes sense - elements and compounds suspended in sea water would easily gravitate together.

The second news release was more solid. Had to do with creation of a virus from raw materials. The scientists had generated the polio virus from inert ingredients. The details were sketchy in the news release, but were apparently endorsed by the scientific community. The polio history exhibit (temporary) at the Smithsonian in DC included a description of the scientific achievement.

Not that it's relevant to this thread, but the polio virus is close to home - more accurately, in home. Younger sister, Sam (Selma) had polio as a toddler. She has spent her life in a wheelchair and is a strong supporter of my efforts.

Pushing on : A virus is quite small. Reasonable, for a basic life form created on the spot. It takes special apparatus to image the beast, such as an electron microscope. Although I worked in electronics all my forty-hour life, I know nothing about the features of the electron microscope.

The virus is reported to be small enough to be passed from person to person in the moisture of breathing. Hold your breath in the confined space of the elevator if someone there has the sniffles.

The virus is reported to be unable to reproduce without being incorporated into the body of some higher-order species. I've seen nothing on the reproductive rate of virus in a suitable environment, but one could guess it might be explosive.

How is all this relevant to CCD? Wish I had a good answer. Will give you some cogitation material to stew over until the next entry:

A. What if the virus affects the nurse bee ability to process pollen nutrients into the vitellogenin for distribution to other colony members and brood?

B. What if the virus is passed around quite quickly by the intra colony feeding of residents by the nurse bees?

C. What if the elements and compounds of the bee hive are conductive to generation of the IAP virus from scratch?

It should be obvious that I'm in over my head on this subject. Instead of conclusions we leave you with what ifs.

"To Be Continued"

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Part 4

The Australian Connection

The report from the CCD investigation team subtly indicted the packages from Australia as the source of our woes. Let's spend a few minutes on that subject.

The large island or small continent (take your pick) that is Australia has its own eco system. The flora and fauna are unique to that area of the planet on the other side (down under). The 'roo and platypus are examples of fauna differences and the Eucalyptus the flora. In brief, the European honey bee is out of its natural range when located there.

Both the Australian and the U.S. scientific communities took an active interest in bee nutrition in the 1970's. In the 80's the U.S. emphasis was diverted to the introduced parasitic mites. Australia continued to learn about nutrition - they had no varroa and their ecological support made nutrition studies mandatory. I would expect Australian beekeepers both large and small, to be better informed and more active in the area of bee nutrition. We have fallen behind in both awareness and colony management.

But the Aussies do not have to contend with varroa. If you assume that the "team" reduction of survey data is accurate, the imported packages are riddled with IAP virus. The conclusion is obvious: IAPV in combination with varroa is lethal. Not so fast - it doesn't all fit together that easy. The symptoms of failure mode doesn't jive. The Israeli symptoms were quaking bees in the hive and dead bees scattered outside on the ground. That's what you would expect from paralysis. The CCD symptoms are the disappearance of adult bees - some slowly and some suddenly.

The incongruity in failure indications baffled the experts. Not only were they different, but the Israeli's have to contend with the V mite. That means the tandem of IAPV and Varroa is not the answer they were looking for. They could not reasonably point to what they found as THE cause of CCD. Back to square one.

I had not seen anything published on sick bees dying elsewhere and noted that characteristic earlier on this thread as a personal observation. It turns out that the fact was well-known. Eric Mussen in his article "Food for Thought" reported that the CCD "disappearance" seemed to be "following expected behaviors of natural death: 1. flying away and not coming back and 2. maintaining the group as long as possible and then giving out all at once." Although both these indications are evidence of CCD effects number 1. (Fall dwindle) was downplayed and "giving out all at once" was elevated to the premier symptom. The rapid disappearance of most of the adults was most perplexing and the leaving of ample "apparently healthy" brood even more so.

Lets take some of the mystery out of the brood left behind first. The colony must rear brood to have replacement bees. Without replacement bees, their fate is sealed. They are dead. For the sake of discussion, lets say that brood rearing is mandatory and a priority requirement for survival. No matter what else happens, brood will be reared.

If you have seen honey starvation, you will know that the colony shares to the last drop and dies as a unit. Why should the other nutrient (protein) be any different as it applies to sharing? Assuming that brood rearing is mandatory, and gets its share, what’s left is distributed among the work force. When it runs out, for whatever reason, would the colony not crash as a unit?

In summary, right or wrong. I see the sudden disappearance as evidence of nutrition (protein) shortage. Time will tell.

Walt


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

*Questions for Walt*

Walt,

I appreciate you sharing your thinking on CCD with the rest of us. Having worked with you for the last six years or so, I’ve learned that your intuitive approach to problem solving often leads to unexpected solutions.

As I’ve mentioned before on this thread, I have seen the bees store startling quantities of pollen below the brood nest in the spring, given the opportunity. I’m convinced that this “pollen reserve” is a part of the colony’s survival strategy that is often inhibited by standard management with Langstroth equipment. You and I have both seen this pollen reserve used during the buildup for the fall flow.

What happens should unfavorable environmental conditions and/or standard management with Langstroth equipment conspire to cause this pollen reserve to be deficient in quantity and/or quality (variety?) The bees do their best to work around the problem, but it is a problem. Could an inability to fix this problem lead to or be a contributing factor to CCD? I think it’s at least possible.

I have a few questions for you if you have the time to ponder them:

1. I have heard/read two different stories on the condition in which Mr. Hackenberg found the original 400 Florida colonies: that they were empty, or that they still had a few bees plus a queen. Did he tell you or do you know which is correct?

2. It seems that the most commonly reported situation is that there are a few bees, a queen, brood, and stores (pollen and honey) in what was recently a vibrant colony. Some say that this means that nutrition could not be a factor, and that this cannot be a result of swarming/absconding.

Do you know how these two possibilities were ruled out? You and I have seen time and again that the colony is able to make a consensus decision based on external stimuli. How do we know that the colony didn’t decide to swarm/abscond based on their assessment of the current nutrition situation?

The fact that there is stored pollen present doesn’t tell us that there is sufficient nutrition available to the colony either from stores or from the field, but they know.

The fact that the queen, whether the original queen or a daughter, is found in the colony does not mean that another queen did not leave with the majority of the bees.

The fact that brood is present does not prove that the majority of the bees did not swarm/abscond. While it does seem unlikely that they would abandon brood, they are capable of and often do make decisions that we don’t understand.

3. I often hear that honey left in CCD equipment is not promptly robbed out. The conclusion that seems to have been drawn is that would-be robbers detect something bad in the honey or in the equipment and ignore it.

Is this a valid assumption? Unprotected honey does not automatically lead to robbing, at least not in my area. If the bees are working a flow (spring or fall), I can put a trailer full of freshly extracted, wet supers in the bee yard and the bees will ignore them. Wait until that flow is over, and the bees will knock you down to get to those same supers.

Do you know if anyone has looked at this to determine if the lack of robbing may just be a timing issue during a flow, later to be robbed when there is no flow?

Any thoughts, ideas or information you may have would be greatly appreciated. I should tell you that I’m not trying to make a case for the swarming/absconding idea, just wondering how that idea was eliminated from the list of possibilities.


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

*New chemicals bring new headaces .*

"There might be no bugs on some of your mugs, but their aint no more dang bees" 

My kids will love the new remake to Bayers catch phrase,
you know the one that puts a virus on fidos neck,
and does god knows what to anything that touches are crops!


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Status October 27, 07

The actions of the test three continue to surprise me. On this inspection, they had not used any of the Feed Bee applied on the seventeenth. It had hardened and was removed. This is the same stuff they devoured in July, but at that time they had been essentially without incoming fresh pollen for at least three months.

Eric Mussen in “Food for Thought” was of the opinion that the colony needs fresh pollen incoming to stimulate consumption of pollen substitute. These three colonies in July had a different opinion - they were desperate. In the second midsummer application, they recognized the stuff and were moving on it before hive reassembly, and a week later had consumed half of that double dose.

My interpretation of this sequence of consumption follows: the “big freeze” came just after reproductive swarm cut off timing. Checkerboarded more than a month earlier, all three had very large populations that were well-fed on our normal early pollen. During the swarm prep period, when colonies are preparing to divide by swarming, all the bees are well-fed in advance to prepare for the lean times ahead. Having just abandoned swarm ambition at repro c/o, they had a very large population of fat bees when field pollen disappeared.

To digress for a moment, it was reported earlier that Trumpet Vine (TV) was the first incoming pollen seen in July. There was still some of it blooming in late September. The long blooming period is likely why it is touted as an attractive plant for hummingbirds. It also provides ample nectar for the high the energy requirements of the colorful little darter. Both the nectar and the pollen are relevant to this season’s discussion.

It was reported early in TV bloom that a local feral, tree colony was vigorously working TV with full pollen loads and the test three were not. That difference is another season observation not fully understood. The test three used some of the TV pollen after a week or two, but on a limited scale. Foragers were bringing some of the pollen in split loads. They were apparently working the TV primarily for nectar, and only bringing in enough pollen to color the back legs. Some had enough pollen to make a small lump in their “socks”, but most had no evidence of pollen at all. We’ll come back to this subject in a blurb dedicated to how the Langstroth equipment interferes with colony survival instincts. A hypothesis on effects will be offered.

A separate blurb will treat fall observations (not completed yet) at a later time.

When it came to my attention that the population was not growing in proportion to the brood volume, the young larvae feeding on royal jelly of worker young larvae was checked. Worker young larvae were getting royal jelly in small amounts. The royal jelly was not the normal generous dollop - sometimes a smear so thin it appeared transparent. It was concluded at the time that nurse bees were rationing the protein on hand to make it last longer.

It was not obvious by casual inspection what caused the total population to remain below that proportional to the brood volume all the way through the main flow and early midsummer doldrums. I saw no cannibalization of brood, but then I wasn’t looking for it either, and perhaps wouldn’t recognize it if the clues were there. It is possible that the short ration of protein caused short-life bees, and that would account for the low total population. Bottom line: the why or how is still open.

Whatever the colony “work-arounds” are, for the test three they were effective. They sustained the colony through three months of no incoming pollen and two more months of very little incoming. During that period they completed two supers (average) of nectar overhead, drew and filled a shallow of foundation, and backfilled the brood nest down to a deep of maintenance brood. Although I’m getting used to it, I’m still amazed.

Update November 5, 07

Excuses, excuses.
 As you know, this is not a full-time activity for me. A question on a 101 thread distracted me from getting the October 27 status written promptly. A few days derailed by a physical problem, and today, B.J., grand daughter and typist, was busy generating a great (grand) son. Took time out from hanging around the maternity waiting room to take a peek into the test three. If I can find an alternate typist, you may get more than a week’s worth at the same time.

The reason for the quick peak was a day of 75° and a freezing front pushing toward us. Wanted to check the brood nest for nectar backfilling. Two weeks ago, they still had their deep essentially filled with brood, and I had seen very little foraging traffic in the interim. Stopped by Small Paul’s place to ask what his plans were to prepare for wintering. He reported that he had fed a gallon of syrup in the last week. Explained to him the importance of backfilling the brood nest, but neglected to tell him that it might take two more gallons.

I remember writing years ago that the bee’s looked “Contented”. That passage was apologetic in that the judgment is subjective and not supported by anything found in the literature. You don’t look contented when you’re in a strain and neither do the bees. They are calm and comfortable when things are going their way.

On this hive entry the bees looked contented. Their owner was feeding to meet the final requirement for reliable wintering, and they had ample population of young bees to meet wintering requirements. Plenty of overhead honey in place is icing on the cake. They had reason to be contented.

Did not check their brood nest for backfilling. Small Paul has that covered. I expect them to winter well and come out in the spring snorting with enthusiasm.

I’ve done it again, anthropomorphizing with glib abandon.

WALT


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

To all:

  The two TV treatments of Oct 28 were quite different. The 60 minutes treatment was old news. They were expected to shoot that segment the week after I visited Mr. Hackenberg in early June. Moved my visit forward to the previous Saturday to stay out of the way.

 The PBS treatment was more current and covered the activities of the investigation. If you missed that showing, check your listings for a re-run. They often air a feature multiple times at different times of day for a month or more. This one is worth seeing.

 Mr. Hackenberg was a star in both broadcasts. Those new semis of bees that you saw rolling into the blueberry area were his. His rolling stock, sitting around in the yard was, for me, more impressive than his giant honey house.

 When I called to find out what happened this fall, he was eager to tell me about his protein feeding regimen this year. After three consecutive years of heavy losses, his bees fared much better this year. He didn’t even mention neonico. Coincidental? Maybe!

 Another commercial beekeeper in Ohio that was visited in the spring had similar gains this year. He’s back up to his 600 colony count, and the bees look like they will winter. He just actively monitored natural incoming pollen and was pleased that Mother Nature took care of his bees. He had barely endured two consecutive years of extreme losses.

 If I can get the details of those two recoveries, and permission to report them, they should show up on this thread before Christmas.

 Mr. Hackenberg’s recovery is considered significant. His bees were heavily sampled by the investigators. Incidence of IAPV were reported to be greater than 90% in affected colonies. That would lead to the conclusion that Dave’s bees have the virus. If they are better prepared for winter by feeding supplemental protein, that’s _very _significant. Perhaps “eating your vegetables” is not that bizarre an approach. We need to wait for the scientists to catch up, or do we? I, for one, will not.

 Walt


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

very true Walt....BUT WHAT YOU FORGOT TO MENTION was Mr. Hackenburg talked to all his growers and DID NOT take bees to anyone using neonictinoids!!!!! Last week he told me he had some bees that didnt look right.....and incidentially.....he STILL believes its neonidtinoids.....


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

I keep Bees

 Thanks for your posting on this thread. Will not quote your questions – this thread has enough volume already. Those interested can scroll back to your posting of 10-29-07 to get that info, but your questions are considered valid and deserve a response.

 Re question 1: When I met with Mr. Hackenberg, had a full page of questions to ask him. Details of the “400” were several line items on the list. When we ran out of time, those were neither asked nor answered. If we meet again (maybe Turkey Day timeframe). I’ll try again.

 Re question 2: I have more questions than you in that area and few answers. When I have more data, I might take a stab at answers, but for now, let’s just leave those questions open.

 Re question 3: I have been suspicious of that from the beginning as a “symptom” of CCD. Been meaning to write a blurb on that subject all summer. Thanks for moving me off the proverbial dime.

 Your observations on robbing are certainly valid, but the reports include other pests like the beetle and wax moths. Let’s spend a minute on those pests.

 My guess is that the commercial beek would not plunk his semi load of colonies down in an area already saturated with resident colonies. (Dispersal of the “400” was one of the questions on the list). Assuming the area was not populated with colonies to maintain the population of pests in that vicinity, the concentration of possible pests might be low. Although those female pests could likely sense the presence of a possible victim, their numbers would not be conspicuous when large numbers of colonies were available.

 Then, there is the question of time for development of the pest to the point of devastations. The adult pest hides, if possible. In daylight, they disappear. Assuming egg laying in the first few days and a gestation period of a few days, there is some time before tiny larvae are produced. Those tiny larvae are not obvious to us. My question is; would the time between hive evacuation by the bees and the growth of the pest larvae to noticeable size add up to the two weeks reported? That time would include adult finding the vacant hive, egg laying, egg gestation, and growth of the larvae to a size that would get our attention. I suspect that could easily add up to two weeks. In that period more adult pests from downwind would be making their way to the location. At some point in day count their numbers might be noticeable, but it seems questionable how long it would take.

 The team of scientists took air samples in the hive back to the lab to look for a possible repellent. That’s a real “needle in the haystack.” A scent that would repel bees, bugs, and moths would be powerful stuff. As weak as our sense of smell is by comparison, it seems that the experienced beek, tuned to normal hive smells should detect anything that strong.

 I don’t expect the air samples to provide any useful info, and I’m not putting much stock in the “repellent” as a symptom of CCD.

 Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Part 5.

 Immunity of Honey Bees

 I keep dabbling in areas outside my experience and/or education base. No excuses are offered for this deficiency. Nobody can know everything. The following treatment is just a few tidbits absorbed from a distant exposure as they might apply to CCD.

 The honey bee genome, completed recently, makes an interesting point. The honey bee genes associated with immunity are about half the numbers of genes of other insects. Those genes are those that offset the effects of disease or poisons. That would seem to make the bees more vulnerable to either or both of those hazards. I suspect that their lifestyle accounts for the shortage. The “all for one and one for all” aspects of their social insect lifestyle would lessen the need for those extra protection genes. And extra genes could be allocated for the complex operations of the social insect. I would expect the genome of ants or termites to reflect the same trend. So much for conjecture.

 Multiple references in the literature report that good nutrition supports resistance to disease or other stress factors – including varroa. That makes sense – it works for our species also. I happen to know that the easiest way for me to come down with a cold is try to go on less than a good nights rest. The issue here is nutrition. It’s generally recognized that we are more vulnerable when run down from poor nutrition.

 The varroa mite is credited with “vectoring” virus diseases. My dictionary defines vectoring as disease transferred by a carrier of the germ – as mosquitoes or ticks. The mosquito injects a blood thinner in the “bite” to facilitate drawing blood and the tick applies the tissue softener to inject its blunt proboscis. In both cases, the germ is transferred by the biting fluid produced by the parasite. The biting insect or tick has the germ in its body fluids. Correct me if this is not true. (old info.) I’ve seen no data that confirms the varroa is a “carrier” of multiple virus diseases. Recent data attributes the puncture, feeding wound as providing access to the bee interior for the virus present.

 We leave you with the question: Why would you ignore the nutrition of protein if it not only improves the colony resistance to disease but also improves their ability to handle the varroa that may be the disease transfer agent.

 Part 5 is the end of the entries on this thread regarding applicability of this thread to CCD. Although fairly brief, we consider it important. Now, we can retreat to areas where we feel more comfortable in our knowledge of the subject.

 Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Status 12 Nov 07

Approaching the full time clustering season, wanted one last check of status. There was much more brood than was expected – coming up on mid November. In years past, the only colonies rearing much brood in mid Nov. were those with insufficient bees for a nominal winter cluster. Some fall problem, such as a late supersedure, had interfered in their normal fall preps for wintering.

Not only did they have an unusually large brood volume, but some larval brood was seen. That brood will not emerge until late November. Highly unusual. That is full-time clustering conditions normally in this area. It is not known whether a warm fall, Small Paul’s early feeding, or neither of those are responsible for the late brood volume.

Paul has already fed two gallons of syrup. Didn’t ask him at what concentration of sugar. Feeder boxes were empty or at the dregs level. Have some sugar on hand, and will mix a batch tomorrow to add to Paul’s feeders. It still may take two or three gallons to fill the brood nest, and with full-time clustering imminent, urgency is building.

Next day 13th

Mixed up three gallons of intermediate strength sugar syrup to feed. I don’t suppose many people would feed somebody else’s bees, but I feel some responsibility for these girls. Finding wild creatures in need that are captive under my terms obligates me to do what I can to assist them. To do otherwise would be criminal. The feeders were dry. Added a gallon to each, and called Paul to alert him that they will need more, and soon. We may not have temps mild enough to move feed for much longer. (60 today and light rain)

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Status 18 Nov 07 (Delayed by travel)

Expecting to leave for a week or more out-of-town the next day, went to put in wintering entry reducers on the test three hives. Mild temps caused them to be active earlier than expected. At nine in the morning they were quite active - bringing in red pollen by the pound. Looked like early March with the exception of the single color of incoming pollen. Elected to leave the reducers on top of the hives for Paul to install later. Didn't want to disturb their rhythm by even the slightest disruption.

Red? In mid November? What in the world is it? Like most folks, I'm a little shy about publicizing my ignorance, but I report what I see. If what I see perplexes me, that doesn't exclude it from the reporting.

We have two red pollen sources in March, maple and henbit. Henbit is the ankle height ground cover with a close cousin of different leaf configuration that both bloom with purplish blooms in the early frosty morning season. Henbit is less sensitive to frost/freeze damage than maple, and is generally only worked when other sources are pinched back by cold. It is suspected, but not confirmed, that henbit is less sensitive to cold period damage by proximity to the great heat sink - earth. Rising and radiant heat from the earth a few inches below helps protect the plant from adverse effects of colder air above. The bees will actively work henbit as a backup to other sources, when it is the only source available.

It may be some other source in your area that provides a "make do" forage source when preferred sources are not available. The advice from here - pay attention to what your bees are working. If multiple colors are coming in at the same time, the variety they need is assured and there is good reason to believe they have selected some of the more nutritious sources. But it is also possible that any given area has a limited variety of sources, and there are only a few sources available with a good nutrition rating. If there is only one source available, it may be less nutritious and is being gathered because it's the only source out there, and some pollen is better than none.

It will take some time for all of us to get a handle on pollen sources. Especially starting from scratch in a period of climate change that appears to be getting worse. But the more you learn, the better off your bees will be. By monitoring pollen on hand in the hive and what is available in the field, you will know, to some degree, when the colony needs assistance. Collectively, we have ignored protein needs for too long, already.

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Status 8 Dec 07

Back from a trip to the Northeast before December 1st, the girls were still bringing red pollen. Checked a few red maple that showed a slight reddish cast. The buds put on in for late winter blooming had some reddish coloration but saw no blooming.

Walked out into the cornfield adjacent to the test three and saw an occasional henbit flower head with a floret or two opened. Although no bees were seen working the henbit, I consider the mystery solved. The bees may have found an area where the henbit was blooming in profusion. Tall Paul had sprayed this field with pre-emerge and a herbicide in the spring for weed control in the corn. He practices no - till planting when practical for the cost advantage. I admit to being a little disappointed when the solid carpet of henbit was reduced to mulch. The corn was just coming up when the "big-freeze" came and was pinched back some. But corn is tough and recovered better than I expected.

Do you wonder why I spend the time to harp on this trivia? There is method to my madness. I'm trying to practice what I preach. This whole thread is oriented to paying attention to pollen/protein needs of your colonies. I'm as negligent as others in this respect. In November, I would normally be concerned that the brood nest is backfilled with nectar or syrup. But, their sudden foraging for pollen in November suggests a need for protein that is not "normal" (whatever that is). If late pollen foraging means that the late brood is not going to get their "fattening up" ration of protein, colony health could suffer through the winter. What to do?

Candidly, I'm a slow thinker. Snap judgments are typically restricted to my personal activities and not applied to colony management. But time is running out. Winter is imminent. Tomorrow is expected to push record highs of about 70 degrees. I may do something not done before in December - penetrate the broodnest for a look. That peek would just be to satisfy my curiosity. It's likely too late in the season for any corrective action. If they are still bringing pollen in significant amounts, I may just wish them well, and not interfere.

Addendum - 10 Dec 07

After a few days of marginal flying weather between returning and the check on the 8th, there was still some doubt about whether or not the test three had fully prepared for wintering. The last time the broodnest was penetrated all three had nearly a full deep of brood and some scattered larval brood. Very late in the season for that brood volume. In the interim they had been fed something upscale of four gallons of syrup each. The syrup had been used when temps were suitable for moving feed. But, was the brood nest properly backfilled?

I don't normally disrupt the cluster in marginal cluster - breaking temps, but two days of record - breaking highs (70+) encouraged me to make a brood nest check. #1 was checked yesterday and #2 today. The forecast for the next few days is to drift lower to more normal temps. This abnormality in temps is just another reminder that climate change is real and affects the colony survival format. It is interesting that this variation works to the colony advantage. Henbit does not normally bloom in late fall. The warm fall also disrupted the henbit timing. The bees took advantage of this irregularity to store significant pollen that would not normally be available. There were large patches of the red pollen in both brood nests, and they were bringing significant amounts in today.

#1 still had three frames of mostly capped brood. No larval brood. They were closing out the brood nest left to right, laterally. In the nine frame brood chamber, they had five frames of good stores on the left side, three frames of brood, and the outside frame of honey on the right.

They have ample bees to form a large wintering cluster. Add three more frames of emerging bees and the foragers in the field to the bees in the hive and the cluster should more than fill the deep brood chamber. That cluster size assures that ample stores will be available inside the cluster without any further accumulation of backfilling for those last three frames of brood. They are prepared for wintering well without any further assistance. But they will get another gallon of syrup for insurance.

It's a popular misconception that the colony leaves empty cells within the cluster to rear brood in mid winter. Given the opportunity, the colony will backfill the whole broodnest in the fall. Early winter consumption for feed and warming fuel frees up cells for mid winter brood. The misconception persists because the literature comes from the northeast tier of states where fall comes quickly and the bees do not have calendar time to get it right.

#1 had a queen cell in development. The cell was elongated to the point that a worker up-ended in the cell had only the tip of her rear exposed. Although all brood frames were examined on both sides, no queen was seen. Could have missed her but I think not. Apparently they are superseding the new queen Small Paul gave them in early fall. Very late in the season for supersedure, but drones were seen coming and going on all 3 at noon on both days. They may pull off a very late SS, but we won't know until February. If they get some mating weather in about a week, they could work a minor miracle.

#2 still has significant brood also. They have four half frames of brood in the characteristic domed pattern of brood surrounded by stores. The peak of the dome was about two inches down from the top bar with stores outside. the brood frames were centered in the upper deep. While #1 is reducing the brood nest laterally from frame to frame (what I'm accustomed to seeing) #2 is reducing the brood nest from the top - downward. Both are behind the calendar schedule. In prior years brood nest closeout was complete in early November. A month or more late this year.

Some time back, 2 to 1 odds were offered that #2 would prepare the lower deep for a winter brood nest. There were no takers at those odds. Too bad - you missed an opportunity to double your money in two months. The offer is withdrawn.

Not checking the lower deep, the guess was based on the hodgepodge use of cells in the upper deep. Brood was interspersed with nectar and pollen. Expected them to replace the brood in the upper deep with more stores and develop the brood nest in the lower. Didn't happen. Felt something slip two weeks later when a solid brood pattern developed in the upper. What had been hodgepodge of cell usage was suddenly solid brood. Oops!

I'm not embarrassed by this turn of events. In articles on the subject of double deeps, the problem of colony indecision about which deep to prepare for winter has been described. Indecision is just one of the problems for the colony. When #2 changed their consensus about which deep to use, the effects of the decision were prompt. In two weeks all stores were moved or consumed to make room for solid brood. They can accomplish plenty in a short time frame when all participants are of the same "mindset". There are no dissenters in the bee colony.

On this inspection, did check the lower deep. As expected, based on brood in the upper, the bottom deep was basically empty. The 08 season would be a good time to work away from the double deep configuration for #2, but that is not likely to happen. Small Paul is deliberately moving to double deeps across the board. Can't win 'em all.

Walt

P.S. They got their gallon plus of 1:1 on the 11th. I wish them well for the winter.


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## danno1800 (Mar 13, 2004)

*that was very detailed & interesting, Walt*

Thanks for taking the time to post it. We may be seeing the very first detailed description of the bees adapting to the warmer climate later in the season. Thanks again & a very Merry Christmas to you, Tall Paul, Small Paul & the rest of the family! -Danno


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Fall summary and reflections on effects of climate change

 The fall summery is going to be brief. A few generalities that reflect differences from prior years leads into a discussion of local effects of climate change.

 The test 3 and the local vegetation both showed significant variation from what has been observed in the past as a “normal” season for this area. The test three internal operations were different in timing and degree. Terms like “highly unusual” have been overworked in this thread as status was reported along the way. It’s been that kind of season.

 To put the “highly unusual” term in perspective, a little history is offered. Starting beekeeping in the late 80’s, seasons were predictable. Wanting to learn what’s happening in a beehive, I suppose that predictability was just a stroke of good luck for me. For example, white wax (main flow) was reliable within a few days of May 1. The relative consistency of seasons during that period assisted my efforts in defining the swarm process and yielded the swarm prevention concept of checkerboarding in 1996. The next few years were devoted to confirming the concepts were valid.

 By the time the “manuscript” was written in 2000 the bee development season was starting to show more variation. That spring, reproductive cut off was more than a week early. (Noted in the manuscript.) It is interesting to me that the bee scheduling variations correlate very well with the surge in global warming in the late 90’s. Spring arriving early is what you might expect with global warming. It’s still moving in that direction. In 07 the trees and bees would have been a little more than two weeks earlier than their early 90’s schedule but for the Easter freeze that stopped both in their tracks. Both the bees and the trees had to recover after the late freeze. The freeze was only “late” based on where they were at the time – early by the calendar.

 I sympathize with the novice trying to get a handle on the bee development schedule for his/her area in this period of climate change. This year’s data may not be representative, and next year’s data may be even further afield. (In any direction) Tough job. Hang in, and keep good notes – with calendar references. A trend will emerge from the accumulated records. The notes should include weather variations.

 Climate change, and the erratic effects on vegetation and bee development schedule, prompts the introduction of another concept (mostly speculation.) This is not the first time our European bees have seen climate change. The effects of climate change are reported to be cyclic with periods of 50 to 100 years from natural causes. Our bees have been developing their survival strategy for eons. That would imply that they are prepared for the periodic, erratic weather conditions. Their survival format includes “work-arounds” to accommodate the vagaries of erratic weather conditions.

 It was noted earlier on this thread that we may never fully understand the colony work-arounds. I suspect that some internal colony activities that surprised or amazed me this year were evidence of those work-arounds. After 10 years of fairly consistent internal operations, suddenly, the colonies are doing it differently. A couple of things that should give us trouble in understanding are how they read the circumstances that cause operational changes and how those variations improve long range survivability.

 It might help to keep in mind a basic premise of mine – that our European bee developed their survival format for life in the forest. Forage in the forest is primarily available in the early season of tree green-up. This adaptation to forest survival can readily be seen in activities of the early season. Reproduction activities start in late winter to provide forage for the reproductive swarm. Re-supply of wintering honey stores takes place on the trailing edge of the spring flow. By mid-season, colony survival rations have been secured. They can coast into winter with provisions on hand. (Supplementing winter provisions with any forage available later in the season.)

 The irregularities of colony internal operations observed this season (07) included:

A. Population low with respect to brood volume from April to August (first variation noticed).

B. Unusually large brood volumes late in the season. Both late spring and late fall, brood volumes exceeded expectations, and were sustained longer, than those of the reference period of the early 90’s.

C. Pollen stored above the brood nest during the build up period of spring.

D. Larger populations after main flow timing through winter preps.

E. Poor honey production.

F. Almost no drones in mid season and more drones between October and Mid December. (Normally ostracized in October)

Although we can speculate that some or all of these variations could be a result of the ’07 season, no effort will be made to interpret them in terms of colony benefit. Any description of how those work-arounds helped colony survival would be pure guesswork. And we try not to guess publicly. Interpretation is left to those more reckless. My part is reporting what I see.

 It should surprise no one who has seen this thread unfold that the intent was to make a case for the pollen box maneuver – incorporated about year 1998 in colony management. Preliminary assessment of the “test three” performance in 07 seems to support the worth of that approach. They produced about a half honey crop and go into winter apparently extra strong.

 Some beekeepers in this area lost colonies in the fall with CCD symptoms and some made very little honey. On my first visit with Don T. he was asked about his honey production. He changed the subject. I let it slide, but on the second visit, pressed him for an approximation. He conceded that it was his worst year ever and might be in the range of 10 percent of normal. That’s a fairly bleak report.

 I have to be careful when talking with “old” beekeepers. Nobody likes a smart aleck, know-it-all. It’s a tough, tight rope to navigate between conveying confidence in what you know and belittling opinions to the contrary. Alienating friends and associate beekeepers is not my nature, but I no longer am that careful of patronizing the “experts.” They should know more than I.

 Years ago, when CB effects had been demonstrated, went to tell Don about it. He seemed interested, but made no changes in his management of many years. On the second fall visit this year he mentioned that there is a never-ending supply of crackpots that have a “better way”. If he were to examine all of those better ways, the effects would likely result in a net loss.

 I can relate to that position. I too have met a few crackpots that were sure they had conceived a better way. Details would stretch this blurb beyond endurance.

 I am as guilty of resistance to change as most old folks, and likely more so than most. Been using Dial Gold as the preferred both soap for fifty years. As long as I can buy Dial at a price I can afford, will continue to use it. It doesn’t matter how many zillions Madison Avenue spends on promotion of an alternative, I’ll not budge. Why should I condemn old beekeepers for being set in their ways? However, I do see a slight difference between a personal preference and choice of actions that affect returns on your cost and effort.

 This has run on for too long already. Sister, Sam would call it diarrhea of the pen. It was intended to proceed from here to a discussion of the pollen box effects in 07. Will put that off a few days.

 In the meantime will report results of two commercial beeks who had better years in 07 because they took an interest in colony protein needs. That was promised “before Christmas”, but didn’t reach Mr. Hackenberg until the holidays.

 Reminds me – insure a happy new year by taking better care of your bees.

 Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Recovery Of Commercial Beekeepers

Part I – Ohio

Frederick Burdell is a beekeeper in southeast Ohio who makes his living on honey sales. He maintains about 600 colonies in outyards of roughly 10 colonies per yard - scattered through the countryside. That's an ideal set-up for honey production. Each outyard has a good mix of forage sources from wooded areas, cattle pasture, and cropland. His honey sources include native and introduced weeds. In my opinion, a very desirable location - much like my own. He markets his honey under the label "Ohio Hill Country Honey". Appropriate.

In '05 he lost more than half his colonies to "fall dwindle." Rebuilding colony count in 06 by spring division of survivors, he had a second year of extensive losses. At that point he was desperate. Another year of losses at those rates would put him out of business.

Learning of his losses in early '07 through correspondence, I wanted to get more details (The correspondence was an exchange on disagreement with what I had written in a published article.) Traveled to OH to meet with him on his turf. In spite of his objections to something I had written, we had a cordial session on the details of his back to back season losses. In that session, he described his operations, and I made him aware of my concerns about ignoring the protein requirements of bee colonies. He conceded that, like most of us, he had paid little attention to colony pollen foraging.

After returning home and digesting my notes, two recommendations were offered: 1. Insure pollen was divided evenly in the spring divides and 2. Discontinue use of menthol crystals in the fall. A weakened colony does not need the added abuse of exposure to menthol in the fall.

Checking back after his spring division, he reported that he monitored pollen division in two outyards when he started. After finding ample pollen in the upper deep in two outyards, he reverted to his normal division of just setting off the upper deep and providing a queen cell to the queenless deep.

Discussion

First, let's state plainly that I can take no credit for Mr. Burdell's decrease in colony loss for the 07 season. He reported in late fall that it looked like his colonies would winter. He was pleased with that turn of events, but gave Mother Nature credit. He had monitored incoming pollen at the landing boards all season. The only period that multicolored pollen was not coming in was the last two weeks of July. If his summer doldrums are limited to two weeks, that's further evidence of the desirability of his location. Mine is nearer to two months.

The probability that any given area would suffer the consequences of erratic weather two years in a row is low, but it could happen. Going against my policy of public guessing the following thoughts are offered:

Mr. Burdell operates in an isolated area. He rears his own queens, and the last time outside bees were brought into his operation was in '03. When he makes divides, the second colony stays in that outyard - making very little interaction between isolated, small outyards. The isolation of outyards would seem to hamper the penetration of a "new" pathogen into his holdings. And his random placement of colonies in the outyards would reduce potential drift between colonies. Collectively, these conditions point to the guess that his losses might be traced to natural causes.

Another factor that could be interpreted either way is that his losses were mostly outyard unique. All would crash in one outyard, and most would do ok in another outyard. This could be the effects of a pathogen involved, but not necessarily so. It has been reported on this thread that great differences in forage availability can exist between locations a short distance apart. A few miles can make a big difference when that source of vegetation is patchy in some areas. The bees work close-in sources to improve efficiency. The value of a load must exceed the cost of gathering it.

After doing pretty much this season as he had done in prior years his bees this fall look like they will winter successfully. All he did was confirm upstairs pollen before lifting off the upper deep to divide the colony, and monitor incoming pollen for the whole season. What does that suggest?

To me it suggests that losses experienced over two years resulted from natural causes - poor nutrition. Any causative pathogen in those losses didn't go away this year. If I had an input to the investigating team, I would recommend they sample Mr. Burdell's bees in 08 for the IAP virus and the ceranae nosema. The result might be revealing. We already know that other commercial beekeepers concentrate colony counts to the point that it is not possible to feed themselves.

We'll get to Mr Hackenberg's story in the next blurb.

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Part II Pennsylvania/Florida

Dave Hackenberg is a large commercial beekeeper in central PA. He provides hives to growers for pollination as a primary business in the spring. Those same colonies are deployed in the northeast during the summer for honey production. In the fall the bees are trucked to central Florida for the winter. In Florida's semi-tropical forage the colonies are encouraged to grow strong to start the cycle over the next spring. For early blooming species like cherries, local bees are growing in strength but are not strong enough to compete with colonies wintered further south. The growers who rent the hives for pollination want strong hives. To make this annual circuit Dave has a fleet of flat-bed semi trucks to move colonies.

In 2004, Mr. Hackenberg experienced extreme colony loss in the fall. The cause of those losses was unknown, but he was reluctant to make a big deal of it. To announce heavy losses is to invite criticism of your management. He quietly went about rebuilding his colony count in '05.

In 2005, while building up his colony count, he was more careful about known problems. He made sure parasitic mites were not the cause of the heavy losses, and still, he had excessive colony loss. Not as bad as '04, but more than normal, and no reason emerged that might explain the losses.

In 2006 the losses continued. That was the year of the now-famous 400 divides that crashed in Florida. To set the record straight, the 400 did not all crash. He gave me these numbers: One month after being located in Fl, 36 had live bees, and 7 colonies ultimately survived. That's not much better than ALL, considering starting with 400.

Recognizing that he needed help on this problem Dave sought assistance from professionals at PennState. They mobilized the investigation team of experts that sampled Dave's bees in Florida in January of 2007.

When I visited him in PA (early June, 07) he was already working on improving colony nutrition by supplying protein, actively researching ingredients needed. He settled on a mix he liked and fed some of it this season with good results. He gave me the formula or recipe for it on my fall visit. He doesn't consider it proprietary, but it will not be given herein. If I provide the recipe, that could be construed as an endorsement, and I'm not ready to endorse at this time. Primary protein is supplied by brewers yeast, radiated natural pollen, and dried eggs. That is sweetened by mostly sugar and a lesser amount of honey. The bees apparently used this concoction readily. Giving them about two pounds at about 10 to 12 day intervals most (80%) used it all. Those not using the full two pounds were given a little less on the next round.

A group of colonies on pumpkin pollination were fed on the above regimen for the pollination period. Those colonies looked better than most when they were shipped to Florida, and as of two weeks before Christmas they still looked healthy. Those colonies not fed on the above regimen were showing some deterioration in early December in Florida. The very least we can say about these indications is that protein feeding seems to mitigate the effects of CCD losses.

When I met with Dave in late November, we talked some about the economics of feeding protein supplement. He said the cost of feeding the pumpkin bees was about $20.00 per colony. Some of his contemporary commercial friends are resisting feeding protein based on the cost impact. After kicking it around some, we agreed that the cost of feeding was far less than the cost of colony replacement. Insurance against losses is a well entrenched concept. We all buy insurance that we hope we don't need.

Walt


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## danno1800 (Mar 13, 2004)

*Walt, let me thank you again for your thoughts & observations*

You have a keen eye & a well-trained mind. I appreciate reading your thoughts & analysis of these beekeeping operations. Thanks again!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Walts-son-in-law said:


> From Walt:
> 
> Primary protein is supplied by brewers yeast, radiated natural pollen, and dried eggs. That is sweetened by mostly sugar and a lesser amount of honey. The bees apparently used this concoction readily. Giving them about two pounds at about 10 to 12 day intervals most (80%) used it all. He said the cost of feeding the pumpkin bees was about $20.00 per colony. Some of his contemporary commercial friends are resisting feeding protein based on the cost impact. ][/FONT]


Walt,

When Dave is talking about cost....

Labor is a big part of feeding pollen sub, so to cut labor cost's, put in five pounds of sub at a feeding.

Putting in two pounds every 10-12 days will have high labor cost's & could have higher queen loss.


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## Action (Jan 8, 2005)

*Maybe 7-8lbs*

Come on Keith,
Tell the truth. You don't put 5lbs on at a time-Maybe 7-8lbs Ha HA
Jack


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Season Summary & Thread Closeout

 As reported earlier on this thread, the local season was tough on bee colonies. An April freeze took out most forage sources for three months. No incoming pollen was seen at the landing boards for that whole period, and very little in the month following – July. The “main flow” started about the first of May but lasted only a month. Worsening drought conditions shut down the main flow early and hurt the fall flow. Details have been provided as the season progressed.

 This thread has run its course. The intent was to report the effects of the pollen shortage on three local colonies that had the advantage of storing a pollen reserve in late winter/early spring. Suspecting that colony nutrition might be a contributing factor in large scale losses with CCD symptoms, we had a point of reference not available to others. If the “test three” did well and others in the area failed with CCD symptoms, it would lend some credibility to the significance of nutrition.

 Candidly, the comparison did not yield as much difference as expected. Local beeks lost “some” colonies in the fall from assorted causes, but those that I talked with couldn’t tell me how many failed with CCD symptoms. Don T didn’t lose any, but he didn’t have any as strong as the “test three” weakest. In early fall, nearly all his colonies still had some long-term pollen on hand, and fresh pollen was just starting to some in. They were apparently using the fresh pollen as fast as it came in – very few cells of stored fresh pollen.

 Don’s established colonies survived this awful season, put up a little surplus, and look like they will winter. The spring split starters did not fare as well. Some had almost no wintering honey overhead. With the honey added to the starters from the established, all have a chance of wintering successfully. In short, with no help in this season of little pollen, his bees look like they will survive. (Subject to change without notice.) I expected more impact.

 At this point, the survival of his bees is a testament to the colony survival traits incorporated in their instincts. The work-arounds incorporated in their genes did the job. Failure of the starters to get it done in the first year is a known reality. The natural swarm, geared to establishment requirements, more often fails than not. Don did assist his starters by feeding syrup during the summer doldrums, and giving them capped honey for wintering in the fall.

 Any list of adjectives describing the European honey bee will include adaptable, energetic, and resilient. All of those characteristics come into play in adjusting colony operations to compensate for conditions. Having endured hard times hundreds of times over the eons, natural selection has prepared them for survival in periods of climate change.

 When we were studying the colony internal operations, some observations indicated colony clairvoyance. (Already considered a crackpot – what have I got to lose?) A colony or two would be doing something strange that we didn’t understand. Two or more weeks later, the reason showed up. OH, that’s why they did that! It appeared that those colonies could see it coming in advance. Those occurrences prompted wife, Shirley, to comment “If we could learn to read the bees, we wouldn’t need the National Weather Service.” I remember not a single one of those situations and I wasn’t keeping records then – lost forever. In retrospect, I suspect that what we saw were colony work-arounds in process. Some colonies took action to offset a perceived problem, and some colonies had better perception than others. AKA genetic variation.

 The scientists have recently shown an interest in genetic diversity. The multiple-mating of queens with drones other than their sons, is credited with maintaining the genetic diversity. Queens are reported to fly outside the range of their sons on their mating flights to prevent inbreeding. Genetic diversity is supposed to enhance the individual colony’s tolerance to adversity. Somewhere in that gene pool out there is a gene that handled this problem somewhere in their historic background. An example of this phenomenon is the SMR (now VSH) strain of bees. They were accumulated from survivors of mass losses of colonies to the V mite, and collectively, they have some tolerance to that parasite.

 It’s interesting that the scientific community now looking at genetic diversity are the same folks who have been telling us for 50 years to re-queen on an annual basis. Can you think of any better way to compress genetic diversity than wholesale re-queening with sister queens? Further, if the queens were purchased from the same source over several years, the chances are that the compression would get worse with the queen breeders continued selection process.

 I did my part on maintaining diversity. 130 mostly feral colonies were kept in out-yards of 9 or 12 stretched over 20 miles along an east/west rural road in northern Alabama. Only rarely was a purchased queen introduced under emergency queenlessness conditions. At the time, I didn’t know enough about bees to recognize the advantages of maintaining genetic diversity – didn’t even know about multiple mating. I maintained feral stock to get a cross section of their natural survival instincts. Will not go into the colony count phase down here, but when the last 20 were sold, the buyer remarked later in a club meeting Walt’s bees “do better” than my others. Coincidence? Not likely!

 This tangent is included here to make the point that we have deliberately, if inadvertently, weakened the species that we want to enhance. Selection for specific traits is not always improvement. There is certainly some sense to selection for mite tolerance, but beware what you lose in the process. And discard that crap about annual re-queening. Upgrade genetics with mite-tolerant stock and let the resurgence of feral stock re-supply the genetic variation that they need.

 I feel compelled to renege on an earlier input on this thread. We said that this thread would not be used to promote checkerboarding. The events and colony operations suggest that CB assisted the “test three” in coping with this awful season. A feature of CB is accelerated brood nest expansion in late winter – making greater populations, early. It seems that more bees, early when pollen was available produced more protein on hand when the freeze came. That must have assisted them for the long period when field forage was not available.

 Now, to the intent of this thread and the closeout thereof: We can safely report that the pollen reserve assisted the “test three” this season. The relationship to CCD is not so obvious, but if we concede that poor nutrition makes the colony more vulnerable to other stresses like disease or pathogens, we can get there from here.

 Let’s reduce the natural habitat of the honey bee to the worst case scenario for purposes of discussion: The deciduous trees are so thick that their branches are interlaced making the forest floor well shaded such that there is very little undergrowth. Solid trees for ten miles in any direction, without any openings or meadows. The bees living there could survive. Let me remind you that the bees migrated across the Appalachian mountains long before the settlers chopped wagon trails through them.

 In this hypothetical, worst-case forest environment, essentially all forage is available in the early season from late winter to early summer. Not a problem. The bee’s survival format will handle it. The sequence in brief:

 Late winter: 
Increase brood volume to reproduce (swarm) 
Store pollen reserve below brood nest

Pre-ForagePeak:
 Reduce brood volume 
 Issue reproductive swarm

ForagePeak:
 Generate honey processors
 Consume remaining old honey

 Forage Trailing Edge:
 Restock wintering honey

 Late Summer:
 Use pollen reserve to rear wintering bees

 The advantage of reducing a full year’s objectives to a thumbnail sketch is that it can be seen that the colony’s survival requirements are primarily met in the first half of the “active” season. Both protein and carbs are accumulated during the early season for the whole year. Both survival and reproduction requirements can be supported without a “fall flow.” It takes judicious planning of the use of their resources, but they have the capacity to make it work.

 In our land of plenty, I believe the fall flow is an aberration to the colony survival format. The experts have puzzled over fall swarms forever. Should they ever recognize that the honey bee is a forest creature, and that a fall flow is abnormal in the forest, perhaps it would register that swarm time is the upswing of forage in the field.

 Back to the subject: In late summer in the forest, they use the pollen reserve stored in the early season to rear the young bees for wintering. What happens if the colony does not have that reserve? They have to wait for the fall flow to kick in. And what happens if the fall flow is weak or doesn’t start until Septober? The colony is behind schedule. By their format, rearing of winter young bees was supposed to start in August. The experts would probably call that stress. I see it as a lack of groceries to meet survival requirements.

 Their population control to meet the season survival format is slow and methodical. The expansion or contraction of brood volume takes time. For example, the small overwintered cluster might not meet swarm commit requirements in time and does not swarm. Takes months. Likewise, the colony without pollen on hand in August, is behind schedule in production of wintering young bees, and may crash in a long winter. It’s not a significant problem in my area, but the northern beek should take note and make provision for adequate time for colony fall preps.

 While on the subject of regionality – north and south, let me plug in another tidbit or two. In my area, the spring season leads the north/central U.S. by two months. My swarm issue season is in early April. As we move north the issue season lags to early June. Swarm preps are delayed by “spring” moving north at about 75 to 100 miles per week. (Excluding elevation effects)

 In the fall, colony operations are more calendar oriented. The northern literature reports exclusion of drones and brood nest closeout in the October timeframe. My bees also normally do those things in October. (Not this year.)

 In this area the bees nearly have time to meet fall prep requirements. Some (about 25%) emerge from our mild winter with substandard cluster size. After incorporation of the pollen box maneuver in the spring, virtually all colonies were fairly consistent in overwintered strength. No weaklings. In my opinion northerly beeks should investigate the advantage of the pollen box. Those areas where overwinter losses are a given might benefit. Fall descends rapidly there and their colonies are less likely to meet the fall prep requirements, because of the shorter period between August and forage-killing weather.

 That’s enough promotion of the pollen box. Hard-headed beekeepers are not going to try it on my say-so, anyway. Details of the how and why were included earlier on this thread.

 The comparison was slightly compromised by feeding some protein supplement in mid-season. With no pollen coming in for months and populations showing the effects of the shortage, 10 pounds of feed bee was ordered to have on hand. I didn’t want to let them crash to make the point. In July two pounds average (adjusted to colony populations) of dry weight were given to see if they would use it. They did. We don’t consider that small amount to have distorted the results of the comparison very much. It appeared that they would have done as well without help.

 In summary, the results of this season’s tracking of the “test three” were inconclusive. I expected more losses with CCD symptoms in this area because of the early season pollen shortage. Didn’t happen! Blame the colony “work-a rounds” and the forage availability in this area. The other bees in the area survived but the “test three” outperformed them in all measurable parameters. Small consolation! It proves nothing in respect to a cause of CCD. The last map I saw on CCD affected states did not include Alabama or Tennessee. Based on what I have seen this season, that may not change. Our bees know how, and local forage supports their minimum needs.

 It was an interesting exercise and it kept me out of the pubs in retirement. I have no regrets! It is a given that investigations into their world do not always turn out as expected. They have very little respect for our opinions or expectations.

 Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Walt:

Keith Jarrett & danno1800,

Thanks for staying with me through this long and tortuous endeavor. Regret that the results were not more positive.

Walt


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