# Why do beekeepers argue so much?



## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

That's funny I was thinking the same thing the other day. It seems like the more heated things get the harder some one will dig to find an answer or to prove somebody wrong.: banana:


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

It could be because their life depends on many factors such as weather, inflation, new laws to deal with and so on, another possibility is how many fly by night people who want all the advice they can get and then either drop out of beekeeping or they start to argue with years of knowledge that their mentor has.

I like crotchety old beekeepers and farmers, they have experienced a lot over the years, good times and bad, so they are a wealth of knowledge if you can endure the grumpiness! Another reason they could be mean is because they are tired. Someone who relies on agriculture for a living basically never stops working, if not physically they are working mentally and have 1000 things going through their mind.

One thing about "mean" farmers and beekeepers, if you prove yourself to them they will doing just about anything for you.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I really must take issue with the assertion that beekeepers love to argue. I am sure there was a study published somewhere proving my point, hold on while I google, cut and paste a link proving that somebody somewhere agrees with me.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

I agree


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

When I googled 'do beekeepers argue', top of the list is: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275790-Is-Beekeeping-broke
:lpf:


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I disagree.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Barry said:


> When I googled 'do beekeepers argue', top of the list is: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275790-Is-Beekeeping-broke
> :lpf:


Well that's just your opinion Barry, hold on while I google up "beekeepers don't argue"


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I think most beekeepers are passionate about their bees. And like folks with similar passions for politics or religion their ‘differences’ can become heated.
I don’t believe that it is limited to older beekeepers. I can think of at least a couple of newcomers on Beesource who will argue their points, with vehemence…for however long it takes to get the last word.


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## Maryland Beekeeper (Nov 1, 2012)

THey have to keep warm in winter same as their B's ?


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## HBBF (Feb 4, 2011)

Well I think one thing I always try to remember when on a forum is that it is a lot easier to say what you think when the other people aren't staring you in the face ready to debate you. Plus we don't get to see facial and body expressions to help us determine how valid their info is. It's easier to be a professional when all you have to do is log out when somebody calls you out on something. Then there will always be people who survive on creating controversy. And then there's stubborn people. I could have hard cold facts in front of my dad showing him that's he's wrong but he will still insist that he's right.


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

HBBF said:


> And then there's stubborn people. I could have hard cold facts in front of my dad showing him that's he's wrong but he will still insist that he's right.


That sounds like my wife.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

GLOCK said:


> I know if you post a good question{like should i fog} ya get so many replys and some get down right nasty.


I think sometimes with online dialogs there is a vast difference of perception. I just went through the fogging thread that you started and I didn’t see any nasty comments directed at you or about fogging in general. simply because people disagree doesn't imply, in my opinion, incivility. I see a couple of folks arguing about some guy named Pedro…but really, the thread, overall, appears pretty civil to me.
Different perceptions, I guess.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I put forward three theories.

1..Testosterone. Some guys just can't take, someone else telling them they are wrong, while at the same time, have no problem telling someone else, they are wrong.

2. So many different opinions that a new/inexperienced/small (number of hives, not height), beekeeper can get from different books, videos, forums, etc. (Remember the video of the removal of a colony from a bird house.)

3. So much difference between the small beekeeper, and the larger beekeepers, as to objectives, risk, procedures, capital investment, etc., 

Just my two cents worth, and grossly overpriced. Don't believe anything I post. I'm not a real beekeeper, but, I do play a beekeeper on TV. 

cchoganjr


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

I think that one of the main reasons people get into the various forms of agriculture is due to their personality. I include myself in this. I do not think it is a quirk that we have the reputation of being difficult to deal with. Most of the farmers I have dealt with, and it is a big group, do not want to be told to do anything. They have trouble getting along with neighbors and co-workers, and definately consider their way the only way. So if you have a personality like this what better occupation than agriculture.
Dave


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Argue, Who is Arguing.!! We are not Arguing.!! Stop saying we are Arguing.!! I do not believe we are Arguing.!!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I put forth my own theory: Beekeepers are dispersed far and wide. More often then not they are the foremost bee authorities in their area. They are used to being the only "bee guy" at the local coffee shop and the one that everyone looks to for answers about all things beekeeping. A forum is a whole different deal. Suddenly the guy that everyone looks to for answers is having his methods challenged by someone with a whole different perspective. The person questioning his methods may know a lot or they may be someone with virtually no experience who only knows what they read somewhere. Either way it's a new thing to be challenged about something they have long accepted as a fact. Some enter into constructive dialog and are the better for it, others just get mad.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

beemandan said:


> I didn’t see any nasty comments directed at you or about fogging in general. see a couple of folks arguing about some guy named Pedro…but really, the thread, overall, appears pretty civil to me.
> Different perceptions, I guess.


 A little history as I see it. Pedro was a veterinarian who had used mineral oil on ear mites in cats I think it was. And I believe he was the first to use fogging on bees he kept in Virginia and Spain. He started with fogging and using cotton cords soaked in fgmo on top bars of the brood chamber. When people complained it didn’t work the discussion got heated about using proper protocol. When he added thymol it got more heated. He did extensive testing on hives both in Spain and Virginia and was ridiculed for not using the scientific method which I think he did. He also had honey and come tested for fgmo contamination and non-was found. Then the test results were ridiculed. I purchased some thymol from him but at the time he was flying to Spain when he arrived in Spain he sent it to me with no extra charge for shipment from Spain. He really wanted to help the beekeepers with an inexpensive treatment. A true Gentle man. I applaud his efforts and hope he is doing well and glad fatbeeman has picked up the torch. I hope this is close to the way it was if I'm off the mark please let me know. Cup of tea???


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## bbrowncods (Oct 10, 2012)

Anybody on a Forum is usually passionate about the subject. It doesn't matter the subject there are heated debates and differences on all of them. Go on an oil Forum and ask if there is any differences between synthetic and regular oil. Oh man! Or a Harley Forum, and raise the best and worst virtues of a particular model year.

It goes with the territory.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

I think there for I am there for I argue. Don't worry beeeeeee happy.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Don't forget Mac that it all started on Bee-l and the majority of his time was spent there. Now for a glass of cold milk! He is a very nice guy. I spent many hours taking his written articles and drawn images and creating PDF files for easy download. They're still floating around the internet. I fully support new ideas and getting the word out. They all have to stand up on their own and pass the test of time however.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

mac said:


> A little history as I see it.


I wasn't complaining....I just read the entire fogging thread to see what GLOCK was referring to as nasty comments. The Pedro dialog seemed to be getting a bit heated but nowhere in the thread did I see any comments that i thought were nasty and surely none directed at him or of fogging.
With that in mind, I simply think there is often a broad difference in perception in a virtual discussion.


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## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

Are you a member of any other forums? You guys are freeking nuns compared to some of the other forums I visit! Barry keeps a tight lid on things around here and it shows.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Temperaments

We are of differing personalities and this type of forum relaxes the rules of civility (for those inclined) by lessening accountability and adding anonymity.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

alblancher said:


> Are you a member of any other forums? You guys are freeking nuns compared to some of the other forums I visit! Barry keeps a tight lid on things around here and it shows.


 Have ya been on tailgator here?? it's a bit more ruff and tumble but not cage fighting.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

beemandan said:


> I wasn't complaining....
> .


 Sorry I didn't think you were. With all the new interest in fogging I thought a little history would be helpful.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Barry said:


> Don't forget Mac that it all started on Bee-l


 I didn't know that I didn't follow Bee-l much.


Barry said:


> Now for a glass of cold milk!


 Is it Raw, goat, cow? sorry off topic ;-}


Barry said:


> I fully support new ideas and getting the word out. They all have to stand up on their own and pass the test of time however.


 Yes, yes they do and thanks for all the hard work you have done over the years on this forum of yours and I hope ya make a buck or two off the adds


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I don't know if it's more arguing or more people like prodding the bull over and over and over..... The other thing is the variables in beekeeping tend to make almost every treatment etc... not 100%. What works for some doesn't work for others... Everyone's bees are different, forage is different, environmental factors different, pests pressure is different.... and on and on and on. Also, a lot of us see the bee world through our bees only and like other says, have no concept of what it is to keep 100 hives, 1000 hives or 10,000 hives.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

very true


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

It's all Odfrank's fault!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Charlie B said:


> It's all Odfrank's fault!


That goes w/o saying.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

It can't be odfrank's fault. He is out collecting your swarms, while others are sitting in front of a screen, posting on beesource.

cchoganjr


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

I think a big factor is that if we have experience we believe in the lessons we have learned from that experience.
Connect that with the fact that we don't keep bees in the same place. So doing the same thing yields different lessons to different bee keepers. 

I know I get tired of reading how-to-advice from Yankee beekeepers who keep bees above the MD line and it is a whole different world down here. Just read a book from a very well known writer telling how to do things and he never once mentioned SHB. The first thing I do on a thread is read where the keeper is writing from. A lot of times that tells me my opinion don't mean squat where they are.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

beemandan said:


> I wasn't complaining....I just read the entire fogging thread to see what GLOCK was referring to as nasty comments. The Pedro dialog seemed to be getting a bit heated but nowhere in the thread did I see any comments that i thought were nasty and surely none directed at him or of fogging.
> With that in mind, I simply think there is often a broad difference in perception in a virtual discussion.


OK OK maybe i misused my words how bout testy?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Argue? ... it's Winter, what else is there to do.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Argue? ... it's Winter, what else is there to do.


You want a list?

I am not sorry I didn't join in the Fogging thread however we never argue in our family we just have loud discussions that by standers don't understand.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Come on acebird that was one that was missing to that thread . I was wondering why you didn't put in your 2 cents?
Even fat/beeman had something to say.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> discussions that by standers don't understand.


You guys speak in tongues?


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## Irene S (Feb 7, 2008)

GLOCK said:


> ) I know the only 2 beekeepers i have meet have been mean one real bad and one so so geuss alot of stress trying to make money from bees.


because they have bees in their bonnets?

seriously, this is the real reason drones are pushed out of the hive in winter. Too much complaining!


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Much of the discussion here and on Bee-L seems to revolve around credibility and reproducibility of your beekeeping experiences. If you say X will happen when you do Y and it doesn't because the person trying it lives in a completely different place than you do, you will get called on it. Modern technology doesn't provide a great place for ongoing learning about any topic. It is much easier to say "The bees that got fogged with mineral oil died from varroa" than it is to say "fogging with mineral oil reduced the number of hard chemical treatments required to keep the bees alive." People, including those who read and post here as well as Bee-L are looking for definitive answers and don't seem to do well with incremental knowledge advances. And matters are further complicated by people who say something works for them, and for whatever reason decline to do the testing others may require as "proof."


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Because beekeeping is extremely subjective and at the same time vastly diverse....meaning there are many different ways to accomplish the same thing.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

this was my first and just about my only foray into 'social media'. 

it's been a fun and interesting ride so far, but mostly very educational. :s

just want to say *many thanks* to all for taking the time to share. :thumbsup:

and to anyone i may have offended along the way, i apologize, it was not intentional. :lookout:

good job barry. :applause:


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Charlie B said:


> It's all Odfrank's fault!


I don't participate much in the arguments because I am so old and confused they are well above my head and understanding. And since I know to begin with that I am right, why waste my time arguing?


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I avoid joining arguments, but read most of them. When they don't devolve into petty insults there is a lot a relative newbie, like myself, can learn as the protagonists go at it.opcorn:


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## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

Most seem to confuse others opinions and ideas as an argument when it is actually a discussion of a topic.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I think Jim Lyon nailed it. I became the expert as soon as I bought bees to everyone that didnt know anyone with bees or wanted bees. Another point is all beekeeping is local so if I can keep bees alive ( or let them die the way I want ) I'm the expert in my little corner of the world. A little bit of sucsess give us confidence.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I blame the apparent simplicity of bees, coupled with the hidden complexity. At first, it must appear very easy, you just put some bees in a hive, the flowers bloom, and you collect the honey. Just let Nature do her thing...... but then Poop occurs. It is the unexplainable complexity of a myriad of inter related cause and effects that we bicker about. The simple way out????? Plead insanity.

Crazy Roland


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Yo GLOCK….look at this thread. Up to two pages now and nary a cross word. When I started it I wondered if it might dissolve into a big brawl…….
So, you see....it can happen....just too often doesn't.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?277115-oxalic-acid-dribble


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Roland said:


> I blame the apparent simplicity of bees, coupled with the hidden complexity. At first, it must appear very easy, you just put some bees in a hive, the flowers bloom, and you collect the honey. Just let Nature do her thing...... but then Poop occurs. It is the unexplainable complexity of a myriad of inter related cause and effects that we bicker about. The simple way out????? *Plead insanity.*
> 
> Crazy Roland


i'm guilty as charged!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

odfrank said:


> I don't participate much in the arguments because I am so old and confused they are well above my head and understanding. And since I know to begin with that I am right, why waste my time arguing?


Winner, there's also my way and the wrong way....


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

I don't think it's that a lot of beekeepers argue, a lot of PEOPLE argue and some of them are beekeepers. Not that I am trying to start an argument or anything.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

like everything beekeeping, it depends.

argue can equal argue.

or, argue can equal challenged.

and, challenged can equal learning.

i once posted:

all beekeepers are 'squarepegs' in the sense that the 'typical', (if there is such a thing), person doesn't choose to keep bees.

and, from the great diversity in the approaches to beekeeping being espoused here, it is likely that there is a little 'squarepeg' in all of us. 

i if i happen to 'challenge' something you happen to say about beekeeping, it doesn't mean i think you are some dad blamed idiot.

it just means i'm trying to understand it better.

i appreciate all and any replys you folks care to take the time to write. thanks.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

DanielD said:


> I don't think it's that a lot of beekeepers argue, a lot of PEOPLE argue and some of them are beekeepers.


You're totally wrong!


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Charlie B said:


> You're totally wrong!



I stand corrected, or my point has been made. I'm not sure on that one. Do you keep any bees Charlie??


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

just out of curiostiy, did anyone crack a grin over 'dad blamed idiot'?

(it was my warped attempt at some southern humor, kinda like the Christmas possum last year)


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> just out of curiostiy, did anyone crack a grin over 'dad blamed idiot'?


 I did. @ first I thought of Bobby Bowden but then remembered he saids "dad gum."


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

The Chinese say, "if two heads always agree, then only one head does the thinking." One to the tenets of "total quality management" is brain storming. During a brain storming session all present are asked to throw out any ideas they may have for a solution to a given problem. Some of these ideas are immediately shot down, but if the people that shoot them down do so in a pleasant manner then more and more ideas come forward. Brain storming remains a good tool in the hands of competent and well meaning people.

Many times on our forum we are brain storming, in that, someone posts a question and the answers come from posters of very diverse environments, educational backgrounds, experience and so forth. As long as we remain cordial to each other, our diversity will bring many good solutions to other's needs.

My father was born in 1888, and his generation used the term argument very different than we do. To us the term brings a connotation of anger. The old folks would pose a question and argue (debate) it for entertainment. Remember, there weren't many TV's back then.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

lazy shooter said:


> The Chinese say, "if two heads always agree, then only one head does the thinking." One to the tenets of "total quality management" is brain storming. During a brain storming session all present are asked to throw out any ideas they may have for a solution to a given problem. Some of these ideas are immediately shot down, but if the people that shoot them down do so in a pleasant manner then more and more ideas come forward. Brain storming remains a good tool in the hands of competent and well meaning people.
> 
> Many times on our forum we are brain storming, in that, someone posts a question and the answers come from posters of very diverse environments, educational backgrounds, experience and so forth. As long as we remain cordial to each other, our diversity will bring many good solutions to other's needs.
> 
> My father was born in 1888, and his generation used the term argument very different than we do. To us the term brings a connotation of anger. The old folks would pose a question and argue (debate) it for entertainment. Remember, there weren't many TV's back then.


Well said. A good argument (in the way described by lazy) is one of the best tools we have to learn together, together being the key word. We are all capable of good ideas and bad ones.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Mostly it comes down to basic differences in their model of the world and their philosophy:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesphilosophy.htm


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

michael, i really like your 'personal beekeeping philosophy' page.

it is very thoughtful and well stated, classic mike bush.

it's clear that one's reasons for keeping bees will guide their decisions and choices, and since these reasons can vary a lot so do the approaches.

i can't say that i'm able to relate to either of your 'some do....' or 'some don't....' examples

in my opinion, i see your characterization of the diverse methods as favoring one over the other, even with the disclaimors.

i found that i could relate best to your statement:

"IMO the wiser ones treat only when necessary."


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Hit a marine aquarium forum if you think beekeepers are argumentative. Beeks are MUCH easier to get along with.

Reefkeepers are spending upwards of $500 for a piece of equipment for a reef that he's going to put a $200 fish in that will die within a month, and tell you why it won't, and then after it does you never hear anything more. I break the rich kids rules. My fish live. But I stay out of their forums.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Born that way. :gh:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I just read a post on another thread. He claimed this forum was bad for personal attacks instead of discussion. what a joke 
That is not what I find here at all. Most posters who contribute here are civil. 

I do find when particular posters present their views as facts, they take any contradiction as attacks. 
Barry and company does a very good job keeping the forum clean


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian said:


> Most posters who contribute here are civil.
> I do find when particular posters present their views as facts, they take any contradiction as attacks.
> Barry and company does a very good job keeping the forum clean


:thumbsup:


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

There's a dangerous side to just words on a screen to communicate. You read something, you get mad, then you think the writer is the one who is mad. It's easy to read something and totally miss the intention of the writer because of our own assumptions and attitudes.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

DanielD said:


> There's a dangerous side to just words on a screen to communicate. You read something, you get mad, then you think the writer is the one who is mad. It's easy to read something and totally miss the intention of the writer because of our own assumptions and attitudes.


Absolutely, that's why they have these. :applause: And these :no::scratch: And don't forget this one :gh:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Very true Daniel 
the key to success and capturing opportunity is having an open mind!

everyone has a bias thats just natural, 
listening to others biases is the hard part

huggy cozy discussion is boring nothing gets accomplished. A good discussion will provide points to consider


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Ian said:


> Very true Daniel
> the key to success and capturing opportunity is having an open mind!
> 
> everyone has a bias thats just natural,
> listening to others biases is the hard part


But not so open as to be mislead.  :gh:  

I am sure the smiley faces, etc. can be miss interpreted too, if someone tries hard enough.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian said:


> Very true Daniel
> the key to success and capturing opportunity is having an open mind!
> 
> everyone has a bias thats just natural,


True enough, that speaks to our life experiences. The only thing that I find unsettling is when people use their biases to stereotype what they assume others must be like. There are lots of really smart people with perspectives much different than mine. The truly open minded person tries to learn from others as much as possible. The trick is separating the learned advice from those who have barely scratched the surface in the beekeeping world. I have spent the past few days sitting in on some informative talks at the NHP convention from some folks who have a lifetime of experience. At events like this you listen and learn. On an internet forum (at least to the uninitiated) it can be difficult to discern what level of expertise, if any at all, a particular poster might have.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Ian said:


> the key to success and capturing opportunity is having an open mind!


Very well said.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> On an internet forum (at least to the uninitiated) it can be difficult to discern what level of expertise, if any at all, a particular poster might have.


Hear you Jimmy, But one thing gets me more than any other.... " I've been doing this for forty years" all I can think of is that he shoulda quit 39 years ago.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I think that sometimes it's easy for people to develop an image or perception of a poster and become close minded or dismissive of them. People may then be less likely to help or engage in constructive conversation with them. I hope all my smart comments and jokes hasn't put me in this category.

Example,
I'm working on a pollen sub recipe for my self and trying to teach myself effective use of it.
Keith seems to sell a bunch and his product is praised and he seems to have spent a lot of resources learning about the pollen sub market and science behind it. If the topic comes up he give little nuggets of wisdom that some may think tear down the competition but offer no real insight. I was beginning to fall into this trap thinking who is this guy with his "secret recipe" think he is. I wish he'd shut up or offer some real advise. ( don't take it personally). I read every post he made, searched out post of his on Bee-l and learned a lot. Lots of people attacked him and became personally offended that he wouldn't hold thier hand. If I let myself fall into this trap I wouldn't have learned or been open to all his contributions. He has given a lot of useful info about many things not related to sub. The info he provides about sub is useful and of course he has a right to share as he see fit.
Sorry I had to use you as a example.... Hope your not offended!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Hear you Jimmy, But one thing gets me more than any other.... " I've been doing this for forty years" all I can think of is that he shoulda quit 39 years ago.


Hey that's me!!!! Quit? And miss all this? Not a chance. :lpf:


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## Scott J. (Feb 6, 2007)

I try to keep the perspective that " there are 100 ways to keep bees and 99 of them will work" I do like to learn why a person does something they way they do, and if I think it may work with how I like to keep my bees I will test it out to see if I want to adopt it into MY way of doing things. Now lets argue!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I agree with what you said Mbeck. A lot of people just want handouts. The information on this site is invaluable already, expecting someone who makes a living on bees to just hand out information they've worked hard to discover is a little arrogant. I think part of it, is Keith and others hand out tidbits to make you do some research for yourself, to help you learn and not just do what someone else is telling you w/o comprehending the why. I spend a couple hours each day researching bees and still have lots to learn, part of the journey, and yes, you must keep an open mind. I think most of the arguing is based on people choosing their 'ideals' and blindly sticking to it and not continuing educating themselves on the science behind the why's and hows of everything else or not being able to look at the big picture anymore because they're 'organic' now etc...


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

JRG13 said:


> yes, you must keep an open mind. I think most of the arguing is based on people choosing their 'ideals' and blindly sticking to it and not continuing educating themselves on the science behind the why's and hows


Well said. I find this particularly true with "senior" beekeepers who are stuck in their ways when they first started 20 years ago.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jim lyon said:


> Hey that's me!!!! Quit? And miss all this? Not a chance. :lpf:


ha ha ha hahha ha


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Charlie B said:


> I find this particularly true with "senior" beekeepers


I'll tell ya....there are a load of newcomers that'll argue til' their blue. I think anyone...experienced or not, can get their ego tied to their opinion and absolutely refuse to budge. You reach that point and your mind is closed and I don't believe it has anything to do with experience.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> Hey that's me!!!! Quit? And miss all this? Not a chance. :lpf:


And not have this opportunity "to have a box in the yard that I throw money into" Used to say that about my boat but, now that I have bee's who has time to have a hole in the water to throw money into.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I used to have a boat in high school. Girls like boats ... it give them a chance to wear that new bikini. Best money I ever spent was on that boat. Of course things were different back then.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

It does not help that beekeeping as practiced by most of us, is NOT a team sport. It is just you and a hive of bees. Our minds get conditioned to only think of our own situations, and not that of others.

A wise man said:

" I've been doing this for forty years" all I can think of is that he shoulda quit 39 years ago. 


Some days I think he is right. It must take a smarter man to know when to quit.(Yes, us oldtimers are more set in our ways)

Roland Diehnelt, 5th gen. beekeeper
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

interesting insight roland.

sounds like a large percentage of your methods have been carried on virtually unchanged for generations, and still producing great results. that's noteworthy and deserves honorable mention.

can you share in what ways, if any, the arrival of varroa affecting beekeeping as your family has known it all these years?


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Roland:

Five Generations, what else is there to say. The knowledge of bees passed from generation to generation in your family seems staggering to one of less than two years of experience. If you weren't so **** far away I would come and visit just to hear you speak of bees. What I wouldn't give to walk around your apiary and just let you explain your operation.

One thing for sure, what you have been doing is working.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I used to have a boat in high school. Girls like boats ... it give them a chance to wear that new bikini. Best money I ever spent was on that boat. *Of course things were different back then*.


You mean, before mites?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>i can't say that i'm able to relate to either of your 'some do....' or 'some don't....' examples 
>in my opinion, i see your characterization of the diverse methods as favoring one over the other, even with the disclaimors.

Of course. I have my view of the world and can't help but favor methods in tune with it..


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood michael, and you do a great job presenting your position.

i have thought about how much or how little my view of the world shapes my approach to beekeeping, and i guess it has to on some level.

for beekeeping, as with my other pursuits, i find my approaches not easily defined as this or that.

better said, i see problems with taking things to an extreme in either direction. 

i do see the downsides in the nonselective and preventative treatment of each colony every season, as well as the downsides of allowing kept colonies to succumb to diseases and pests.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Charlie B said:


> I find this particularly true with "senior" beekeepers who are stuck in their ways when they first started 20 years ago.


Auuuu... gee B, I've been practicing this art of beekeeping for over 30 years now.... But I'm not even fifty years old yet, so I'm I in the "senior" club. lol

One thing I always ask myself is, "am I looking at this right" I always try to pull myself back an take another picture to be sure I don't have tunnel vision.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Oh wah, oh wah, oh wah 
Oh wah, oh wah, oh wah

Why do beeks argue so often? 
Why do birds sing to soften? 
And honey helps the break the coffin? 
Why do they argue so often? (beeks argue so often)


Why does the rain fall from loften? 
Why do beeks argue so often? 
Why do they argue so often?

Arguing is a losing game 
Arguing can be ashame
I know of a fool you see, for that fool is me 
Tell me why, why, why, tell me why

Why do they sting to day? 
And Bee's await the break of day? 
Why do they argue so often?
Why does my hive tool get all messy? 

Before I know it she will lay another bee 
Tell me why, why, why 
Why do Beeks argue so often?

- WHY DO BEEKS ARGUE SO OFTEN? LYRICS

OK here are they lyric's someone else is going to have to put it to music and sing.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

|||||>>>>>>>tunnel vision<<<<<<<<<|||||||

tunnel vision doesnt help anything. I farm with my brothers, and we regularly meet through out the month to manage the farm. This discussion and feed back helps avoid the tunnel vision problem that arises from time to time


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

EastSideBuzz said:


> - WHY DO BEEKS ARGUE SO OFTEN? LYRICS
> OK here are they lyric's someone else is going to have to put it to music and sing.


:applause:


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

EastSideBuzz said:


> Oh wah, oh wah, oh wah
> Oh wah, oh wah, oh wah
> 
> Why do beeks argue so often?
> ...


I know someone who can rap it for you.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Squarepeg asked:

can you share in what ways, if any, the arrival of varroa affecting beekeeping as your family has known it all these years? 

I believe the largest effect as genetic. We had been developing, by grafting, our own strain of bee. Nothing super or special, just one that wintered well, expanded well in the spring, produced ample honey surplus, and was gentle. Because of the increased winter mortality from mites, and the subsequent replacement with packages and their queens, all of those genetics have been lost. I believe we are slowly making progress in that direction again. One yard has not had any packages added for five years, but has a couple of mean queens that must be killed every year, and honey production seems a little off also.

Actually, mites are a walk in the park compared to CCD. Mites kill a portion of the hives, CCD is usually around 90 percent. That is on the past now.

I don't think we are doing anything special to be here so long, just more stubborn(read German) than average.

Crazy Roland


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very interesting, thanks roland.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Mbeck said:


> If the topic comes up he give little nuggets of wisdom that some may think tear down the competition but offer no real insight. I was beginning to fall into this trap thinking who is this guy with his "secret recipe" think he is. I wish he'd shut up or offer some real advise. ( don't take it personally). I read every post he made, searched out post of his on Bee-l and learned a lot. Lots of people attacked him and became personally offended that he wouldn't hold thier hand..
> Sorry I had to use you as a example.... Hope your not offended!


Take it personally..... Noop, not me. I'm the type that is never quit satisfieded in my work, so I'm alway thinking there something better out there around the corner. You will also very rarely here me boo hoo, that's not to say I don't get beat up at times. You can look at it three ways, (1) Watch it happen (2) make it happen (3) or wonder what the hell just happened.  I try to stay away from #3.


http://youtu.be/1H-Y7MAASkg


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Unfortunately, ATTEMPTING to explain #3 is the reason we argue so much.


Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You hit that nail on the head...


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Roland said:


> Unfortunately, ATTEMPTING to explain #3 is the reason we argue so much.


Agreeded,well said Roland. I think you have to get pass the "fluff factor". There was a thread that was pretty hot over on the commercial beekeeping thread talking about ingredients of pollen sub, this one ole boy tooting his horn petty good talking about his pollen mix & mirical dust that he said works great. 

Well..... when you google a search it looks like he's the chief spokesman for CCD. So, then I looked up the FSA records only to find out that he's been gettings $100,000 plus check from the gov E-LAP program. So do you want to waste your time arguing with that.

P.S. I tryed to get some of that porgram money but all I could qualified is for crums, They said you didn't have much of a loss.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I think a lot of beekeepers would be less irritable if NUTRA-BEE was more readily available.


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