# Bees Dying and Convulsing in front of Hive



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Before we start thinking pesticide first define "good stores". Heavily brooding bees require lots of feed.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sounds like poisoning, a chemical spray issue.


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## SherryNE (May 12, 2014)

Good Stores = medium super mostly full of honey plus a syrup feeder kept available for them. I dont' think starvation would cause the convulsions I'm seeing. 

If it's chemical, what's the next step? Is there one?

I should add, I'm not in Nebraska anymore. I am in Middle TN, and everything is in bloom.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

That's unfortunate. It sure sounds like pesticide, there's probably little you can do at this stage.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Starving bees do not roll around on the ground outside the hive. It does sound like pesticides.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

SherryNE said:


> The lady who manages the garden says 2 days ago this was not the case.


I would check with your contact and see if they might be doing any spraying at the Naturalist Learning Center, or see if she might have any leads for you to pursue in surrounding farms or orchards that might be spraying pesticides at this time.


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## Eddie Honey (May 30, 2011)

How have you dealt with mites to this point?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I've had this happen to me twice in my bee keeping time. Bees falling out the front entrance and convulsing or jerking to death on the ground. I assumed it was some kind of poisoning that they got into or that got sprayed on them somewhere in the foraging area. Half of the hive or more ended up dead on the ground under the front entrance (my hive stands kept the hives up off the ground by 20 inches or so). This was back at a time when I lived in a more residential area. Both times, the hive recovered for me. I hope yours recovers for you.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Take a look when you can. There seems to be two lines of thought here. Starved or poisoned.
If you still got bees when you look I'd assume the dead ones got sprayed.
If your hive is dead when you check then they starved. 
Leaning towards exposure to pesticides but without actually looking it's just a guess. You lost the field bees I think.

Here in east central Illinois we get exposure die-off like that in mid to late april or early may. Lots of planting and spraying going on. I've seen the piles o dead bees.


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## SherryNE (May 12, 2014)

As of now, there are a fair amount of bees orienting in front of the hive (new field force?), a very few bees flying in and out, a whole bunch of drones milling about, and a few worker bees crawling and rolling on the ground. Hopefully just the field force died/dying off and it will bounce back. I'm opening the hive up tomorrow.
As for handling mites, I did several sugar dustings last year, and was getting ready to treat this week with quick strips. Not sure if I should go ahead with that or not.


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## SherryNE (May 12, 2014)

Mike, they do purely organic. It's an urban/next to rural area, so anybody could be spraying. :-(


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

FWIW
There are organic approved non bee friendly organic treatments in the organic repertoire too.


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## SherryNE (May 12, 2014)

Good point. But they said they didn't spray anything.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

That's all you can do is ask them and ask around.
Maybe the next perfect day open those hives up and see what the brood nest and queen look like.
I'd give it some time though and let those bees that are ill leave the hive before checking brood nest.
If the bees were hit with something in the field there is a good chance (not 100%) that the queen and brood
are ok. Barring really cold temperatures where the loss of the field force will be immediately missed by the
colony by having trouble regulating temperature they could very well rebound. The more capped brood that
is in the hive unaffected by this episode the faster the rebound. 
I know, it sucks.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Fruit tree spray would be my first guess. Perhaps there is a lesson here to tell the children about.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Looks like this hive will rebound in no time. Hopefully the
poison will be a short term affect on them. When you see the
crawling bees on the ground, are there any DWV on the bees?
Or are they mainly the crawling foragers? 
Sometimes when they are growing and taking their first orientation flight around
noon time the DWV bees will crawl on the ground too. This might be a sign of
the mite overload in the hive. Maybe it is time to do a mite check and monitor them
for awhile.


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## SherryNE (May 12, 2014)

jim lyon said:


> Fruit tree spray would be my first guess. Perhaps there is a lesson here to tell the children about.



I bet your exactly right about the fruit tree spray. We worked in a presentation about the challenges beekeepers face from spraying gardeners and farmers.


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## SherryNE (May 12, 2014)

No, everybody's wings looked normal. A few were tattered, but not DWV like. I'm going to do a hive inspection and set up a IPM board for mite check tomorrow.


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## SherryNE (May 12, 2014)

The die off is continuing today :-(


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## HillBilly2 (Jul 26, 2015)

Call your state bee inspector. He will come out and take samples of bees and comb and send off for analysis. The report will give you everything they have ever been exposed to.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Can you give us some pics or a vid
of them continue dying? And how come
nobody mention about taking samples to the bee lab?
Do they do tests on pesticides poisoning too?

Give the hive as many sugar syrup as they will take. 
Don't know if this will work to dilute the poison out of their
system. At least this will stop them from going into the poison fruit
trees for awhile. And I don't think the honey is good to use either.


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## HillBilly2 (Jul 26, 2015)

Bee Inspector will send samples to USDA. They test for all known pesticides and can tell everything they have ever been exposed to. Think the test was over 250 chemicals.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

You can send samples directly to Beltsville, Maryland yourself. The service is free and they e-mail your results to you.
Here is a contact.

https://www.ars.usda.gov/main/site_main.htm?modecode=80-42-05-40


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

I would recommend sending in the samples yourself. I had 3 colonies die abruptly in an apiary last year. All 3 colonies were going strong the week before, building up well, had plenty of stores etc... etc... I got on here and asked about it and everyone said it sounded like classic pesticide poisoning due to symptoms, randomness of the hives that died, fact that they went from strong to dead in less than a week. Called my state inspector, told him what I thought it was and if it could potentially be pesticide poisoning. The guy absolutely refused to even consider the idea of a pesticide poisoning. Way to early in the year, not even possible don't even consider it. He comes out looks at the colonies, yep these ones starved out he says. I point to the cluster size, the ample storage, and the fact that it's been too bloody warm for anything to freeze out and it fell on deaf ears. His final diagnosis was they starved out as a result of being to cold to break cluster and move. It was a few months later I was talking with another beekeeper who had a similar experience and he said all the farmers in that area started spraying earlier in the spring with a new type of treatment for weavels or something.

Do the test yourself.


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## SherryNE (May 12, 2014)

Moon said:


> I would recommend sending in the samples yourself. I had 3 colonies die abruptly in an apiary last year. All 3 colonies were going strong the week before, building up well, had plenty of stores etc... etc... I got on here and asked about it and everyone said it sounded like classic pesticide poisoning due to symptoms, randomness of the hives that died, fact that they went from strong to dead in less than a week. Called my state inspector, told him what I thought it was and if it could potentially be pesticide poisoning. The guy absolutely refused to even consider the idea of a pesticide poisoning. Way to early in the year, not even possible don't even consider it. He comes out looks at the colonies, yep these ones starved out he says. I point to the cluster size, the ample storage, and the fact that it's been too bloody warm for anything to freeze out and it fell on deaf ears. His final diagnosis was they starved out as a result of being to cold to break cluster and move. It was a few months later I was talking with another beekeeper who had a similar experience and he said all the farmers in that area started spraying earlier in the spring with a new type of treatment for weavels or something.
> 
> Do the test yourself.


I take your point, but testing myself would cost upwards of $700.00. I just can't spend that one my one hive. I also got the "it's too early for anybody to be spraying" things. :-(


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

How about the free one in Maryland? Have you
contact them yet? To continue beekeeping you need to
know what's going on in your environment at certain time of the
year. This will affect your bees either living or dying. When in doubt you
cannot reuse the equipment now if they are not safe.


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## SherryNE (May 12, 2014)

I had testing done, I had it done by the TDA. I will also send samples off to Maryland, which does not test for pesticides, it tests for disease and pests (still great info). I have the state apiarist coming out today to inspect as well. Moon had suggested that I pay to have private testing done for pesticides, and they are right, but I simply cannot afford it. I'm by no means ignoring the issue, though. I think due diligence is being done here, and I'm very surprised that anyone would suggest I should throw money I don't have at this, or act like I'm not doing enough. I don't HAVE $700.00 in my bank. I can't get it. And Maryland doesn't test for pesticides. 
And I'm sorry, I know what you are saying, I am just beyond frustrated and discouraged. I was feeling pretty good about my management of this hive, I got it overwintered, and now this.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I had a friend's hive that did the same thing last summer. They showed glimmers of recovering, but it was obvious it wasn't going to happen. They just kept dying and then when some of the new bees emerged they'd die in short order. Something like 17% mite infestation by the end of it too. Was sad because the queen just kept laying eggs with no bees to cover any of it. Like she knew they were toast...


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

aunt betty said:


> You can send samples directly to Beltsville, Maryland yourself. The service is free and they e-mail your results to you.
> Here is a contact.
> 
> https://www.ars.usda.gov/main/site_main.htm?modecode=80-42-05-40


I'm pretty sure Beltsville's free testing is only for AFB, varroa, and nosema. Pesticides and virus testing is more expensive and handled by another agency depending on your state. In VA they do have someone that will test for pesticides. He works as a sidearm of the state inspection program.


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## SherryNE (May 12, 2014)

It's horribly frustrating. The population is actually still high, but I can't find the queen, and EVERY DAY die off is still going. I was going to do a split with a new queen, but I can't run one down this time of year. Hoping the state guy will have some suggestions for me.


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## Doreen78 (Feb 25, 2016)

I'm sorry, that sounds horrible.  Are you still seeing eggs in cells? If so, you still have a queen. They can be pretty elusive... Hope you get some useful advice today.


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## SherryNE (May 12, 2014)

Doreen78 said:


> I'm sorry, that sounds horrible.  Are you still seeing eggs in cells? If so, you still have a queen. They can be pretty elusive... Hope you get some useful advice today.


Monday-no eggs. :-( Tiny larvae, but no eggs.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

SherryNE said:


> Monday-no eggs. :-( Tiny larvae, but no eggs.


Is it possible for you to post some pictures of the bees both dead ones and alive, brood frames etc.?


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## SherryNE (May 12, 2014)

So the State Apiarist said that my hive looked really healthy, except that there is no queen and there are bees dying. He suggested possible paralytic virus or Nosema.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

SherryNE said:


> So the State Apiarist said that my hive looked really healthy, except that there is no queen and there are bees dying. He suggested possible paralytic virus or Nosema.


Huh? Really healthy except for queenless dying bees and disease?? This from a state apiarist? This report certainly seems at odds with your original post.


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## SherryNE (May 12, 2014)

I'm just telling you what he said. He said he expected to see unhealthy brood, or a heavy mite load, or obvious Nosema signs. But instead, the remaining bees (which is maybe what I should have said) looked very healthy, the brood looked healthy, but of course there was a large and sudden die off and that's not right. I showed him the remaining crawling and trembling bees (of which there are still always a few in front of the colony), and he said that Nosema might cause that, or some of the paralytic bee viruses. He thought the colony would recover from whatever it was, if of course, it had a queen, which it doesn't. 
I'm not sure what part of this is at odds with my original post. My original post was talking about a large die off in front of my hive, and thousands of bees convulsing and dying. That happened. That has not changed. TBH, I don't appreciate the tone of your post. I came here looking for help, and I've now had one person imply that I don't care enough because I don't have a large bank account and you have suggested that I am not being honest. Please, by all means, email the man and ask him what he found, if you're suspicious. I have sunk most of my week into this issue and gotten nowhere, but I didn't expect to be personally attacked from the people I hoped could help me.


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## SherryNE (May 12, 2014)

Thank you so much for everyone who chimed in with support and suggestions. I'm very sorry that right now I still don't have concrete information about what happened. I was hoping for more info from Mike Struder, the state apiarist, but he just didn't see what he thought he would. He also didn't see the large piles of dead bees, because we gathered them up with the TDA inspector to be sent off for pesticide testing. He did not doubt that they were there, as he saw the pics of the samples, but he couldn't personally see them on the ground. The video he thought could be Nosema or paralytic bee virus. 
I have taken 2 days off work to meet these people, taken off from a job that is fairly new and REALLY doesn't like you to take time off. I have researched for hours at night. I am really, really sad about this hive because I'm not financially in such a great place right now and I've only been beekeeping for 3 years. It was a big accomplishment to me to get a hive overwintered and come out so strong, and to have it suddenly crash right before the flow is just a freaking bummer, as I'm sure you can all imagine. This hive was sited at a learning garden for children, and having them ask me daily if the bees will be ok has not been super happy either. 
I will be certain to let you know if the TDA guy finds evidence of pesticides. He didn't think he would, he thought it was too early for anybody to be spraying. Mr. Struder thought the same. So I don't have answers, and I may not get them. But if I do, I'll pass them on. 

And BTW, we opened up 20 drone pupae and found 1 mite. 
1 adult SHB was present in the hive also. 

There you go, folks, that's all I've got. I hope you don't think I'm a liar or an idiot, but if you do, I really can't do much about it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

SherryNE said:


> There you go, folks, that's all I've got. I hope you don't think I'm a liar or an idiot, but if you do, I really can't do much about it.


Sherry, Jim didn't mean anything against you personally, I'm sure. He's one of the most helpful folks on the forum. 

All he's saying (I believe) is that bees break dancing in front of the hive with continued die off, queenlessness, and suspected virus/disease issues shouldn't be considered a "healthy" hive.
Hopefully they can bounce back from whatever hurt them.


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## SherryNE (May 12, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> Sherry, Jim didn't mean anything against you personally, I'm sure. He's one of the most helpful folks on the forum.
> 
> All he's saying (I believe) is that bees break dancing in front of the hive with continued die off, queenlessness, and suspected virus/disease issues shouldn't be considered a "healthy" hive.
> Hopefully they can bounce back from whatever hurt them.


I was also fairly surprised to hear the report. I certainly don't feel like I have a healthy hive. I'm also battling a sinus infection this week, and I'm as cranky as my queenless hive. Again, thanks for everyone's help.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

SherryNE said:


> I was also fairly surprised to hear the report. I certainly don't feel like I have a healthy hive. I'm also battling a sinus infection this week, and I'm as cranky as my queenless hive. Again, thanks for everyone's help.


My friend's hive had gobs of dead... then they'd look good for a bit and then another big kill would start. There was dead barely hatched larva, but they appeared dry like there wasn't enough nurse bees to feed them so they starved as soon as the egg dissolved. Sent bees to Beltsville, no hits. They said probably pesticide poisoning. Fortunately, or perhaps unfortunately depending on how you look at it, I had moved my colonies from my yard (this guy lives only about a mile from me 'as the crow flies' just shortly before his bees were waxed. Kind of wonder if the same would have happened to mine or if someone sneaked up and sprayed his with something.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

FYI, Beltsville bee lab is back logged by a few weeks. Sent my sample March 8, just got my results Monday after I called to inquire on the status. . They warned me when I called before sending samples it would take a while.


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## meeves (May 15, 2015)

last week the farmer that rents our land applied anhydrous ammonia to the fields and my bees are doing the same thing the next day


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

My only advice for you is to take the bees away from the kids for awhile.
Then nourish it back to health somewhere safe. If it wasn't the mites then
it may be a queen failure due to the poisoning or something else going on now.
Sometimes when you remove them away from the unhealthy environment they
will recover sooner. This is the same for us too. Also continue to keep your day
job as you need to replace this hive if it fail later on. My thinking is buy a nuc hive
with what you earn that you can place it at the center or at another bee yard. Taking
the time off and trying to save a hive that might not be salvageable is not worth it in the
long run to compromise your present job too. I'm sure after 2 weeks working you can save enough
to buy a nuc hive for this replacement. And if you start with 2 or more hives then the agony is not that
heavy on you. When you have 5 hives then losing 1 is not that bothersome at least to me. Tell the little
children that you have taken the bees to nourish them back to health.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Wondering how they (and you) are doing. Been following the thread....


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