# Monitoring Hive Health



## Deezil (Jul 1, 2013)

So I'm new to this whole hobby / farming-art; just to toss that out there. 
I'll be getting started in Spring with some nucs, but I've been striving to learn all I can & while I, now, feel as if I have a decent-grasp of the basics, another thread has launched me into another facet of my investigating/learning/information-overload escapade here - monitoring hive health (and working out a way to document findings year-after-year in a logical way)

I seen Solomon's Survey of Mite Infestation In Drone & Worker Brood

And it led me to wonder, is there a list somewhere - or can we make a list here - of objective / raw data tests that can be performed in apiary, and fit within the realm of treatment-free?

My thinking is, the more raw data you can track personally, the clearer the bigger picture will become (and stay); I'm asking because beekeeping seems to be so localized that I wont be able to depend on others across the country to keep me on track & would like to build a sort of "profile" for my locale, over time. The major object is to compile information for my use, but to make it easier as well, for those that I some-day leave this all behind to.

Appreciate anything anyone can contribute


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

A bee diary is very useful, not only for monitoring internal things such as hive health but also environmental things such as timings of flows etc, which also affect hive health. I keep a diary for each location so if I'm wondering whether that hive that is low on honey will need feeding, I have the info to hand to know when the flow will start and if the hive can make it or not.

Re internal things such as hive health, when you are new a lot is hard to recognise. An easy one is relative mite populations because that can be reduced to an actual number via drop board counts. So if you kept data on drop board counts you will become familiar with seasonal fluctuations, which strains you have that suffer less from mites, and for hives that died, what levels they got up to before dying which may help you in future when deciding if you have to intervene to save a hive via requeening or similar. You will also know if after say, a year, your situation is stable, worsening, or improving.

Health issues that are not mite related, are mostly harder to quantify. However learn what you can and keep hard data where you can get it. That's what I do, anyway.

There is another philosophy that says you should not monitor mite levels or anything else, as you are not going to treat, so there is no point, just go by whether the hive is dead, or alive. But that was not your question, your question was what and how could you monitor, so that's what I've answered, as per what I do myself.

Good luck!


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## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

Good advice Oldtimer. There is a third philosophy that I and many other beekeepers in my area subscribe to. That philosophy is to not measure mite counts but treat on a schedule with the schedule tied to flows in the area. It took three years of testing, listening to advice, and record keeping to get to this point but this has worked very well for me the last two years. Am I spending more than I need to on treatments? Probably. Have my overall cost gone done because my bees are staying alive? Most definitely. The cost to treat is 10% of what a new package or nuc will cost and I don't spend a lot of time collecting data.

Regarding record keeping, I keep an Excel spreadsheet for each year with a different hive on each tab of the sheet. One column will have every date of the year and I will make hive notes next to that date. I save the file and it is easy to go back and see what happened in years past.


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## scallawa (Jul 6, 2013)

Personally, I would still monitor even if I wasn't treating. It can give an idea of what may have led to the collapse if that occurs. Even if I wasn't going to do anything I would still like to know and potentially be ready if the worst happens.

I have been using hivetracks.com which is a free website that you can use to keep track of your yards and hives. It works well on a mobile device as well. Its practicality may depend on how many hives you have.


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## Deezil (Jul 1, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> A bee diary is very useful, not only for monitoring internal things such as hive health but also environmental things such as timings of flows etc, which also affect hive health. I keep a diary for each location so if I'm wondering whether that hive that is low on honey will need feeding, I have the info to hand to know when the flow will start and if the hive can make it or not.


My plan is to align the data from some raw-numbers tests within the individual hives, with data from an eventual small weather station, flowering & harvest dates, first/last frost dates, growth degree days & min/max temp records - all for my particular micro-climate - as you mentioned, this could also work to show the timings of flows. There's an apparent balance between tests & time, I just dont know where to draw that line (and it likely varies, the line, by how many hives one is keeping)

Any chance you can expand a bit on what can be found in your bee diary?



Oldtimer said:


> Good luck!


Appreciate it!



Hokie Bee Daddy said:


> Good advice Oldtimer.


Indeed!



Oldtimer said:


> There is another philosophy that says you should not monitor mite levels or anything else, as you are not going to treat, so there is no point, just go by whether the hive is dead, or alive. But that was not your question, your question was what and how could you monitor, so that's what I've answered, as per what I do myself.





Hokie Bee Daddy said:


> There is a third philosophy that I and many other beekeepers in my area subscribe to. That philosophy is to not measure mite counts but treat on a schedule with the schedule tied to flows in the area. It took three years of testing, listening to advice, and record keeping to get to this point but this has worked very well for me the last two years. Am I spending more than I need to on treatments? Probably. Have my overall cost gone done because my bees are staying alive? Most definitely. The cost to treat is 10% of what a new package or nuc will cost and I don't spend a lot of time collecting data.





scallawa said:


> Personally, I would still monitor even if I wasn't treating. It can give an idea of what may have led to the collapse if that occurs. Even if I wasn't going to do anything I would still like to know and potentially be ready if the worst happens.


Personally, I would rather have too much information than not enough & I would rather have too many things to do than sit around and wonder if I could be productive somehow; I've read enough to become aware of the other 'trains of thought', but they dont really jive me with at this point in time. I appreciate the broadening of the subject that comes with mentioning these different viewpoints, but it's not what I'm after; thanks for supplying some answers to get my brain working.

My only concern with not measuring & treating around the flow, is the lack of movement through time, away from treatments altogether. Thats a primary goal of mine, starting with the what is hopefully the correct 'stock'.



Hokie Bee Daddy said:


> Regarding record keeping, I keep an Excel spreadsheet for each year with a different hive on each tab of the sheet. One column will have every date of the year and I will make hive notes next to that date. I save the file and it is easy to go back and see what happened in years past.


Do you take a notepad in the field? Or a laptop? That'd be a lot to remember lol



scallawa said:


> I have been using hivetracks.com which is a free website that you can use to keep track of your yards and hives. It works well on a mobile device as well. Its practicality may depend on how many hives you have.


Even if I dont use the service, it may help show me some different things worth paying attention to. Thanks.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Deezil said:


> Any chance you can expand a bit on what can be found in your bee diary?


OK well it would be different if it was computerised but that wasn't an option when I started. If I was 40 years younger I'd get something portable with some kind of software but I'm used to what I got now.

It's just a scrapbook. There's a page for each site with info such as time the willow flow starts there, when there was a dearth, etc, this is updated constantly so I may be able to look back over several years of data. Just to help me in planning what to do when I'm at that site.

There's another part of the book where I write stuff that has to be done by a certain date, for example if I'm at a site and things are going better than expected & they'll need supers within 2 weeks, I'll put an entry with the date that yard has to be supered by. Otherwise I can forget this kind of stuff.

And the other part of the book is just anything of note that happened from day to day, such as found aggressive hives somewhere and requeened them, how many supers are currently on hives at a site, or whatever I might want to refer back to at some point but doesn't need specific action.

A computer would be better. But I've only got a little over 100 hives plus nucs so can get away with this. I do have to be careful to keep information overload down so I don't miss the important stuff, where if using a computer and calling up info you want, information overload would not be an issue. When I started in bees my boss had 4,000 hives and ran the whole thing from a notebook in the cab, and it did actually work.


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## Kidbeeyoz (May 8, 2013)

Of course there is the well known KISS principle, "keep it simple stupid", where many a successful beekeeper has simply put a rock on the cover to indicate the hive needs special attention on the next visit.


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## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

Deezil said:


> Do you take a notepad in the field? Or a laptop? That'd be a lot to remember lol.


I only have 11 hives right now and work no more than 8 at a time. It isn't hard for me to remember the status of each until I get home to enter it into the computer. If I do have something I need to remember I just put it in a note on my iPhone until I get home. Also, I order the tabs in the spreadsheet as the hives are looking from the rear. This helps me visualize which hive had what note. I also color the tabs differently for the different bee yards. It works fine for me. I'll double again next year I hope and we'll see how scalable the system is.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

I love my bee diary! I use a color/number scheme to keep track of my hives and their nucs. For example nucs split from hives red, yellow and blue, would be red1, yellow1, blue1 etc. When I started grafting queens this year it was violetQ and brownQ, they made violetQ1 through 6 etc...

I am not sure at what point this system will break down... I only have 6 honey hives and A LOT of single nucs and two deep splits, but it works for now. I went to art school, so I could probably dome up with plenty of colors if need be.

I don't do a mite count, but I keep track of pollen and nectar flows mostly, dates of drones appearances and drone 'packing' dates, dates of queen grafting, brood quality(how many frames, drone brood to worker etc), gallons of honey, and subjective propolis measurements. Sometimes I make abstract observations of visible mites, and have recently been able to predict my late season culls with some accuracy.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Check the first day larvae and make sure they are shiny wet. If they are not, what would you do?

Crazy Roland


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Hazel-Rah said:


> I love my bee diary!


I've only started doing this this year, so its a work in progress. I keep a good quality A5 notebook with me, with each hive numbered and given 2 pages. So I can find a hive, read its number (pencilled near the entrance) and look up its history. I make very condensed notes (to save the limited pages): date, site, 'Mating', 'eggs/brood', or needs Q material; type and number of box/es, a general 'doing well' or 'sulky'; a note to do something - feed up a bit, add a lift or 'crop', or just 'great!'. 

I also carry a dedicated clipboard with loose printer paper, and use that for first notes. At the end of each visit I compile a list of 'urgent' actions, and then work down them. Some less urgent stuff gets done then too. By then I know what to put in the diary for future reference.

Every week on bee day I go through the diary and enter 'To-do's' on a spreadsheet, which lists hives by number and location, and add a 'priority' rating, 0 - 9. I then 'sort data' to group the hives by location and bring the priorities to the top. Print and leave for the first site. 

On arrival I can look at the spreadsheet to see the priorities, and then look up individual hives in the diary to see their history, importance in the breeding scheme, condition last time and so on. I then inspect and make notes - preferably after each hive because I forget easily. If I'm in a hurry I only do the 'priority hives', but I look up all the last visits and make a point of looking inside each hive once a month.

The scheme seems to work well enough, though it is a bit of a chore with 40 hives and nucs (this year). The diary gets done on the day, but the spreadsheet takes a couple of hours to update. Doing it before going out gives a chance to get things fresh in the mind though. Above just a few hives I can't remember much of anything, so it has to be. I seem to get everything in place, bit by bit, just by plodding through the system.

I haven't made notes about flows yet. I've been pressing my bees to make comb this year (again) as I've expanded numbers, and this seems to me to obscure things. In any case most of my sites are selected for year round parking - long season activity rather than intense flows. And the weather is all over the place... there can be 6 weeks or more difference from one year to the next. 

The other thing I do is keep a sketch page on the bottom of the clipboard showing where each hive is. The numbering system is simple, and doesn't tell me anything about where hives are.

I've thought a card system would be better than a notepad, but haven't found a cheap and readily workable one. It's going to be a pain when I run out of room for a hive - though I suppose I could cut the old pages out and stick new ones in for a while.

Mike (UK)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Deezil said:


> And it led me to wonder, is there a list somewhere - or can we make a list here - of objective / raw data tests that can be performed in apiary, and fit within the realm of treatment-free?
> 
> Appreciate anything anyone can contribute


Is there something special about doing this w/in treatmentfree? Seems like observing conditions in a hive of bees would be the same TF or not.

Maybe I have too many hives to do any of what y'all have been writing about. The only notes I make, in a flip pad, are which yds are/were supered, had honey taken off, were treated and the date these things were done. 

The state of each hive is dealt w/ when something comes up. When hives are getting worked, checked for brood frames to use in nucs in the Spring, reversed and supered for swarm control, checking supers for need of more space, taking off honey, preping for Winter, protein patty and syrup feeding (if necessary), and checking for feeding to avoid starvation, things will be observed which will induce one to look deeper into a hive to see why it may appear as though something is wrong. Then those things are dealt with.

Otherwise I don't see the need for large amounts of data and data recording. Though I see for a number of you that many of you do collect data and use it. I have more than a dozen note pads in a desk drawer. I doubt that there is much data there of use or importance to anyone even myself, beyond when during a calendar year different things were done. Maybe how that has changed. But it doesn't help me do my beekeeping any better than working my bees regularly.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Sqkcrk, for me, each site is different because some for example, will get a strong spring willow flow, and others have no willows nearby and will be in dearth at that time.

This can have quite an effect on the hives for the rest of the season. And because I'm always splitting & selling bees, removing combs and feeding in foundation etc, I need to know exactly what I can do at each site. For example if I'm making spring nucs I might take nearly all the honey in a hive and give it to the nucs, but if I knew there was no flow at that site for another 6 weeks I would not be able to do that. So I keep individual flow records for each site. Easy though, cos I only have 8 sites.

Also I'm not migratory like yourself so for you, keeping flow data for each site is probably just not doable. But for me, it's a pretty important tool.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I can see that. But haven't you been at this long enough that you know this and don't need to refer to your notes anymore?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Didn't I hear a story last year about a guy who went to take the honey off a yard & when he got there, there were no supers on. He forgot to super that yard up.  Should have kept notes.

But back to what I do. About 1/2 my yards would be not more than 2 years old, I'm still getting data on them. Got to write it down or I will screw up.

What I do is a bit different from honey production. Honey, you just put the hives out & long as they got enough feed they'll be fine till the flow starts, whether it's now, or in 6 weeks. What I do is different I'm breaking stuff up all the time, putting feed comb in nucs if needed but not if it isn't. 

I even think about where the purchasers are taking them and feed or not feed accordingly.

There is quite a variation in sites here even just a few miles apart, one might be excellent & I had one site couple years ago where they didn't even get a surplus. Just depends what's growing in the neighbourhood. Grassland can be nothing but a green desert far as bees are concerned.

Other than flow patterns, I do have to write other stuff down also. Just yesterday while I was out with some nucs in the back I thought I must requeen that queenless hive I found a few days ago. But had to think real hard to remember where it was. Didn't write it down. Thought I wouldn't need to, LOL


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I know guys who have forgotten yds. Didn't abandon them, just forgot they were located there. Too many? lol


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## Deezil (Jul 1, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Is there something special about doing this w/in treatmentfree? Seems like observing conditions in a hive of bees would be the same TF or not.


The observing here at home would be the same, but the conversation on the forum would not be. I dont mind people having different philosophies, I was just hoping for a deeper answer than "count your mite drop board & treat accordingly" - which we seem to have stimulated here & I thank you all for that. I thought that people who didnt rely on treatments, might have ideas for pegging the health of a hive that those who rely on treating might not have considered tracking

Lots of great ideas on small details to keep track of. I'm not looking for a list of things that takes 15 minutes to document per hive but if I can generate a list that I can memorize, of things to count by %-of-frame coverage or number of afflicted (visible mites, dwv, etc) then over time it'll only take a moment or two to jot down those series of numbers before moving to the next one..

This is bigger than just the particular health of an individual hive, although those notes will prove their usefulness over time.. 

I'm also interested in things like - is the fall mite build up somehow connected to Growth Degree Days, like its suspected that most insects are (but they incubate in the soil) - or is because they live inside what could be considered an environment-inside-an-environement, are they only influenced by the warm/cool cycles that the bees regulate the hives to? Growth Degree Days is said to influence incubation and hatching times of farming pests (Japanese beetles come to mind for wine grapes)... Or can they somehow time their brood build up to the flow cycles, through the bee build up?

I wont ever really know unless I dig deep online (and trust others I dont know), go to college and get lucky there, or start tracking these things myself.

I run the habit of making a "sloppy copy" of what im doing at the time, and copying it into my "pretty notebook" later lol


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

Roland said:


> Check the first day larvae and make sure they are shiny wet. If they are not, what would you do?
> 
> Crazy Roland


What are the options? Dry and shriveled? Knowing me, wait and see what happens... Ditch the brood and requeen? Was this a joke I didn't get?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

i SUSPECT that Roland is referring to a hive unable to feed it's larvae properly.

But Roland is an interesting beekeeper (and successful full timer) who thinks outside the box, will be interesting to hear his reply.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Deezil said:


> So I'm new to this...farming-art


How does one spot a fake? Do you explain it? Seems to me the most effective way to spot a fake is by being so familiar with the real that the fake doesn't stand a chance. That's how it is with diamonds.

Yes, there are objective tests, raw data, mite drops, sugar rolls, ether whatever. But what is real beekeeping? It's being so familiar with bees that you pop into the hive, or maybe you can even do it from the outside, and you notice immediately if something is wrong. This hive doesn't sound, smell, feel, look right. The brood isn't in the right proportion. There aren't enough nurse bees. The drone ratio is off. The nectar is fermenting. There is/isn't a flow going on. There is skunk predation. The bees are mad.

There are tests, yes. But let me advocate for traditional beekeeping, where the beekeeper just plain knows bees. It takes many years. It's a bit counter cultural. It's our modern rationalist scientific mindset.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Solomon Parker said:


> But what is real beekeeping? It's being so familiar with bees that you pop into the hive, or maybe you can even do it from the outside, and you notice immediately if something is wrong. This hive doesn't sound, smell, feel, look right. The brood isn't in the right proportion. There aren't enough nurse bees. The drone ratio is off.


And for the rest of us more simple folks, we can test. Mite drops and such..

If a nubee wants to monitor, that's what I'd recommend. They then don't have to ask on Beesource why their hive died, cos they've been using techniques that work even for a beginner, and are learning what stuff means and how to understand it.


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## Deezil (Jul 1, 2013)

Solomon Parker said:


> There are tests, yes. But let me advocate for traditional beekeeping, where the beekeeper just plain knows bees. It takes many years. It's a bit counter cultural. It's our modern rationalist scientific mindset.


I'm all for traditional anything - for knowing your art/craft, for having it perfected and not needing a book to understand whats going on. But I've also come to understand that life is short and people dont always make the right decisions while our elders are still walking with us, so please understand that my question here is bigger than just being new to beekeeping and not having the knack for 'feeling' a hive upon opening it - there's a lot more note-taking going on than just this and its on a level that would probably qualify me for grants were I to go that route but that would take the fun out of it.

It's the same, about knowing when to or not-to water your particular crop as a farmer; you come to 'read the weather' per say.. It happens in time, everything does. But the youngest of us doesnt always make use of the time that the oldest of us are running out of - and I mean to leave a few things behind me... A system that works, and notes that explain it, etc.. This is just one piece of that puzzle... 

Another part of it is having the 'evidence' to back up 'what happened'. That's for piece-of-mind. 

I'm not asking for data coming from a bunch of 'invasive' substances - whether it be strips, fumes, powder.. I'm just asking - when you open the hive, on a normal day, what can you keep track of that will help, overtime, to depict the overall health of the hive... Add multiple hives up, and you get a more specific overall feel for the health of the yard.. Add the multiple yards up and you have an even better idea of the whole operation.. But you'll only have intuition, if you never keep records. Nothing wrong with intuition, except that you cant always pass it on.

If I live to do this for 50-60-70 years.. Those records would be priceless for my particular micro-climate.. I wish someone had that, to give to me..


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> There are tests, yes. But let me advocate for traditional beekeeping, where the beekeeper just plain knows bees. It takes many years. It's a bit counter cultural. It's our modern rationalist scientific mindset.


That's ok when you have those many years under your belt, and as a goal to aim at. But for beginners and 'improvers' clear meaningful signs are useful guidance. But I think you have to have a philosophy and a method, and then consciously and deliberately pick the signs you want to use. 

My philosophy is 'no-treatment/breeding toward health' (traditional husbandry). I want signs that help me decide which hives to graft from, and signs that help me see when a hive isn't going well enough.

The best way I know to do that is keep lots of hives and prevent the big ones robbing the little ones with very small entrances, and then work to make fair comparisons of the way hives of equal age put on weight. 

'True comparison' is my main method of deciding which are the healthiest hives, the all-important criteria for best ensuring ongoing health. And of course this is pretty much the core evaluation factor in all animal husbandry. You want 'goers' - beasts that put on weight - as your breeders. The rest go to market. Period. 

I can't rush to judgements. Sometimes a nuc is slow to get going, then puts on weight like billio. Sometimes they'll build like mad, then fade as varroa bites. The only way to do it is give them all their chance, don't interfere more than you have to (and if you do then consider what effect of true readings that might have) and wait a couple of years. 

I think that method will become intuitive over time, and I'd do it without thinking. I'll also pick up an ability to forecast goers that will defy easy analysis. At that time I'll just plain know bees. Till then I'll keep records that enable me to I track performances and make _sound_ comparisons for breeding purposes. And just generally to help the process of deciding which to breed - if I have a 5 year old queen that's given sterling service but is fading, I don't want to make the mistake of losing her blood just because I've forgotton about those years. 

But I won't devote time to taking hives apart and examining them minutely, unless there is very good reason to do so. That's time better spent making new gear, or servicing old. I struggle to see varroa and I'm not going looking for it. In my philosophy of husbandry and method, that's the bees' job.

Mike (UK)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> There are tests, yes. But let me advocate for traditional beekeeping, where the beekeeper just plain knows bees. It takes many years. It's a bit counter cultural. It's our modern rationalist scientific mindset.


Yeah, that's what I meant. Right on Solomon.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Deezil said:


> If I live to do this for 50-60-70 years.. Those records would be priceless for my particular micro-climate.. I wish someone had that, to give to me..


Really? Do farmers water their crops by notes they took? I'm note against noye taking, but I think you are over valuing something way beyond its real value. Would you like me to send you my note pads?

Being as there is nothing new under the sun, wouldn't you think that this sort of thing would be published somewhere? Internet archived?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The trouble w/ me commenting here as I do is that it seems like I am arguing. I'm not. I'm just trying to get across to Deezil how little record keeping actually matters to me and most of the beekeepers Commercial and Non that I hang with.

Michael Palmer keeps records. But when he recently reported on his Mite Loads he reported data collected by NY State. Which leads me to believe he doesn't do mite checks all that often and/or doesn't have the numbers easily retrievable.

Y'all knock yourself out.

Deezil,
You'll understand after you've had a number of hives for a half dozen years. Do you do this w/ your garden or your car even?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Sqkcrk, I don't count mites either. But when mites were a new thing to me I did, it was a useful learning tool.

But the thread was simply a question about how to monitor a hives health. Could be records, could be other things.


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## Deezil (Jul 1, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Really? Do farmers water their crops by notes they took? I'm note against noye taking, but I think you are over valuing something way beyond its real value. Would you like me to send you my note pads?
> 
> Being as there is nothing new under the sun, wouldn't you think that this sort of thing would be published somewhere? Internet archived?


Actually... They do.
There's a weather monitoring service for WA State (not sure if they track others) but its done in conjunction with WSU & their Ag program. Instead of having old-school notes, they now have a website called AgWeatherNet & it basically does everything I'm looking to do, however its on a series of weather systems covering the state. They've managed to blend science, technology and old school note taking. They even have an irrigation app for a mobile device that plugs into soil moisture monitors to know when to water, what block - but thats a bit much for me, I need more intuition than that. 

It is published, I do have access to it, but it doesnt pertain to my micro-climate. They have weather monitoring stations that are close, but too low of elevations. So I'm rolling with my own system. Now I could also opt into their system and help them by enlarging their system onto my farm - but like qualifying for grants, that would take the fun out of it. 

And no, I dont need your notepads as you dont see the value of taking the right notes so they're probably full of the same basic facts, page after page after page. It's fine if note-keeping doesnt matter to you and your buddies, but you obviously knew replying to this thread, that thats not what I'm looking for. I've also explained that this is a part of something bigger, a few times now... It matters to me, so I made the thread. 

Next time you can keep the attitude and the superiority complex. Or just keep your advice to yourself. 
I'm usually nice to you Mark, but you cant come at me, telling me you know you sound like you have attitude, not even attempting to fix it, and expecting me to be alright with it.

You'll understand when you realize this is bigger than just a few hives. 
Or you wont.

Knock yourself out.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Really? Do farmers water their crops by notes they took? I'm note against noye taking, but I think you are over valuing something way beyond its real value.


You're right, no, we don't make decisions on when to irrigate based on when we irrigated last year. But that's also because crops rotate as well as planting timing. Having a foundation of historic knowledge about your climate and what actions you have taken in the past, IS very important. Instrumental in being able to predict the likely outcome of a crop, based on what has happened in the past. You can come to store this knowledge intuitively, but keeping a journal and planting calendar will help you pay attention to and decipher the information that is important.

Also any successful livestock breeder, I would venture to say, keeps at the very least meticulous notes. Not sure how I could keep after grafted queens for more then 1 year?

Definitely couldn't tell you the willow bloom date every year for the past 3, or even this one off the top of my head... yeah, OK it was early...


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Would you like me to send you my note pads?


Yes.

But seriously, I'll bet you know all kinds of things about the Brasher Falls microclimate that I would love to know. I've lived in LotusLand far too long, and have no real idea about the turn of the seasons in the North Country.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Deezil said:


> Actually... They do.
> There's a weather monitoring service for WA State (not sure if they track others) but its done in conjunction with WSU & their Ag program. Instead of having old-school notes, they now have a website called AgWeatherNet & it basically does everything I'm looking to do, however its on a series of weather systems covering the state. They've managed to blend science, technology and old school note taking. They even have an irrigation app for a mobile device that plugs into soil moisture monitors to know when to water, what block - but thats a bit much for me, I need more intuition than that.
> 
> It is published, I do have access to it, but it doesnt pertain to my micro-climate. They have weather monitoring stations that are close, but too low of elevations. So I'm rolling with my own system. Now I could also opt into their system and help them by enlarging their system onto my farm - but like qualifying for grants, that would take the fun out of it.
> ...


Am I then on your Ignore List or just your manure list? I'm sorry if my opinion as I expressed it came across as superior. I guess I can't help how my words are taken. Please don't tell me what I know. Thanks.

As we say down South, "Y'all have a nice day." Herb knows what I mean.


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## Moonfire (Apr 2, 2013)

Deezil said:


> And it led me to wonder, is there a list somewhere - or can we make a list here - of objective / raw data tests that can be performed in apiary, and fit within the realm of treatment-free?
> 
> would like to build a sort of "profile" for my locale, over time. The major object is to compile information for my use, but to make it easier as well, for those that I some-day leave this all behind to.


What I found helpful is my smart phone!! I have an andrioid and was able to get a free app called beehive manager, this allows you to create yards, and hives in said yards, trck growth, disease, pests, queens, honey production, as well as keeping notes that are stored in the app! My fiancé has an I phone he got a similar app on his phone ( can't think of the name at the moment) but it was also free and does basically the same thing. There are others that you can buy as well! Other than that I would suggest looking on line for a hive management pdf or database that you can either print out or update and save in a file on your computer! all I can say is that my smart phone app has made record keeping and hive management super simple for me! Good luck with your new venture!!!


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## Moonfire (Apr 2, 2013)

also I came across a page the other day that I have found to be really helpful in understanding what native plants in my region are in bloom and when! here is the link just for you! :lookout:
http://honeybeenet.gsfc.nasa.gov/Honeybees/Forage.htm


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> I'm note against noye taking, but I think you are over valuing something way beyond its real value. Would you like me to send you my note pads?


If of course you a saying maybe we could leave the Excel Spreadsheet out of the picture, I'm with you on that.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What are folks keeping records of and how are they using those notes to make decisions? On how many hives? 2 or 200?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

For me, see post #15


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> What are folks keeping records of and how are they using those notes to make decisions? On how many hives? 2 or 200?


As for the various things I write down, I referenced most of that stuff earlier. I used my notes from last year, as well as notes I had taken earlier this year, to inform my choice of which two, out of 6 overwintered queens I might want to graft from. I also used that information to decide how much honey to keep on since we were going into a dearth so much sooner. I used last years pollen flow and drone 'packing' dates to decide what the latest split was I could make.

2013 - 4 overwintered hives, 2 over wintered nucs, 3 spring splits, 5 grafts from violetQ(ueen), 3 grafts from brownQ(sold 4 queens) became 4 late summer nucs. This is not counting the grafts that didn't take, or one spring nuc and a late season cull I had in 2012.


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## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

Hazel-Rah said:


> If of course you a saying maybe we could leave the Excel Spreadsheet out of the picture, I'm with you on that.


Hazel-Rah,

That's a legitimate opinion and to each his own. The poster wanted to know what others were doing and I shared what I find to be helpful. I have 11 hives and this isn't the commercial forum so any opinion is welcome. I won't turn a profit anytime soon so fortunately my livelihood isn't hanging in the balance. I am a beekeeper as I enjoy being a beekeeper. 

I think we're losing perspective here on whether we are enjoying a hobby or making a living. What is useless information to one may be something of interest to the other - regardless of the value the other side places on it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I have never started a Thread in Commercial that hasn't had more Posts by NonComs so it isn't as closed as you seem to portray. Unintentionally or not.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Hazel-Rah said:


> If of course you a saying maybe we could leave the Excel Spreadsheet out of the picture, I'm with you on that.


I'd die without spreadsheets! 

Mike (UK)


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## LetMBee (Jan 4, 2012)

I use g-notes on my cell phone while in the yards. I can dictate most of my notes that way and take pictures associating them in the notes. Then When I get home I can access the notes on my computer. I have 30 hives + or - 1 or 2 at any given time. 

It works for what I need.


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## Bob_in_Westsylvania (May 5, 2013)

Deezil,

Check out Hivetracks.com. It is a record keeping program for beekeepers. It was developed by two beekeeping college professors. It maintains data on your woodenware, your bees, your inspections, feedings, treatments, etc. It can be accessed and data input from a mobile device. It connects with Google earth for a birds eye view of your yards. it records the weather at your site, and produces reports. Best part, it is FREE.

I am a first year beek, but 40 years in business taught me the importance of record keeping. When we started with the bees, we looked at a lot of record keeping templates at most of the Bee Supply companies, then we viewed a Hive Tracks webinar at Brushy Mountain's website. It has everything we felt we would need plus more. We have used it since March and have not been disappointed. 

you can make up a yard and do a trial run at www.hivetracks.com

Disclaimer: I have no connection to Hive Tracks other than being a satisfied user.

Note: It appears Hive Tracks in in the process of upgrading. For a good review of the program, view the Hive Tracks Webinar at Brushy Mountain
http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Resources/Videos.asp
Know your bees, number 5


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

Hokie Bee Daddy said:


> Hazel-Rah, That's a legitimate opinion and to each his own. The poster wanted to know what others were doing and I shared what I find to be helpful...I am a beekeeper as I enjoy being a beekeeper.
> 
> I think we're losing perspective here on whether we are enjoying a hobby or making a living. What is useless information to one may be something of interest to the other - regardless of the value the other side places on it.


That's great! I wouldn't take that statement personally... I just don't have a computer and am somewhat dysfunctional with those things. I don't think I was belittling anyone, and I am pretty far from making a living off bees myself.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

mike bispham said:


> I'd die without spreadsheets!
> 
> Mike (UK)


Got any you could put on a Post in this Thread?


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## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Got any you could put on a Post in this Thread?


Hopefully this worked. Attached is a sheet I used last year. I've taken out locations to protect the innocent. Like I said I used this one last year and 2012 was the year I learned how to keep bees alive in the face of winter and mites so don't analyze the content too much.

The black tabs are dead outs. If you have any questions or upgrades just let me know.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

As clear as The Emperors New Clothes.  Try again.


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## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

I can't upload it for some reason. I'm good with spreadsheets but beesource has me stumped. If I can figure out how then I will.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Got any you could put on a Post in this Thread?




Do you mean show you my system? Sure - tell me how to upload it here and I will.

Mike (UK)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yer askin' the wrong guy.  I know how to turn on my machine and get to beesource. lol


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## scallawa (Jul 6, 2013)

+1 for HiveTracks. I have gone back and looked at some of my notes several times since I started in July. This is likely due to my inexperience but I find the information valuable. My notes may end up having less detail the more seasoned I get.

I list my observations, what I did, time, weather, population etc. Some of these like, time and weather, I record because the app does it for me. Others I record because it makes it easy with a checkbox.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Got any (spreadsheets) you could put on a Post in this Thread?


It doesn't come across well... I tried spacing out but it didn't work. You just have to imagine this lot in proper columns.

The first number is the present priority rating, used to sort the most urgent jobs to the top, at each separate location

Next is the hive number, description, originating date, year 

Next ('Sim.') is the location - 'Simon's land'

Next 'Nat' tells me its in a National hive - if that's missing its in a six-frame nuc.

An 'M' means mating - check for eggs at a suitable time.

'U' means a candidate for uniting. I make this sort of stuff up as I go along.

The last column is 'To Do'.

Using the spreadsheet.
On a Bee day, all info is updated from my diary, and a new priority rating attached to each hive. The whole lot is then sorted (Data/'Sort') to arrange the lines in site groups, and bring the most urgent work at each site to the top. (Look at how the left hand column has falling rating numbers at each site)

-------------------

Date: To-Do
7 21 Keycol Bees, 7/7/13 13 Sim.	Nat Time for a look
6 28 Nuc from Jon II (Jon II Queen!	13	Sim.	Nat Keep feeding for comb

5 30 Herne hill swarm 13	Jon n Leave be, add roof, entrance restriction

(Tidied only to here)

8	17	Jon 3 (Jon 1 Queen?)	13	Jon Add 6-F lift
6	3	Jon I	12	Jon	Nat	U? Check with a view to breaking or combining [1]
3	4	Jon II	12	Jon	Nat Leave till autumn feed

7	34	Fly-in (22/7)	13	JD Time for a look
5	9	Jumping Downs	13	JD	Nat remove unused lift?

9	5	Fryarne I	12	Fry Nat Remove lift & clearer
8	29	Nuc from 18/BBI 13/7	13	Fry U+ Up to Nat, move?
8	39	Half-Nuc from 8, 27/7	13	Fry Watch for space
6	40	Half-Nuc from 18, 27/7	13	Fry M	Grubs added 19/8 - unlikely… strong; ins. 10/9

6	7	Newington Bees	13	Ecof Feed on for comb/change to Cedar
3	6	Whitstable Bees	13	Ecof	Nat Leave till autumn feed

7	16	Nuc+BB I QC	13	Mil (At Mary's)

9	12	Split 1 from BB I	13	BBw M	Inspect
8	43	Nuc in 18 29/7	13	BBw Time for a look
7	18	BBI Queen (top Q)	12	BBw	Nat Time for a look
7	19	Nuc from Jon I (Jon 1 Queen?)	13	BBw	Nat Time for a look
7	20	Nuc from Jon II	13	BBw	Nat Time for a look
7	23	Nuc from Fryarne	13	BBw	Nat Time for a look
7	24	Nuc from Fryarne	13	BBs U?	m	Suspect laying workers - check in sept
7	31	Nuc, origin unknown	13	BBs U?	M	Q-, small, 1 q cell… ?
4	25	Nuc from Whit	13	BBs Brood, good but small…
8	35	Half-Nuc from Jon II 23/7	13	BBn U+ All good: shift back (sheep)
8	36	Half-Nuc from Jon II 23/7	13	BBn U+ All good: shift back (sheep)
7	33	Nuc from Whit (6) 22/7	13	BBn U?	Q-	No eggs but strong
5	8	Quinton Bees	13	BBn	Nat	U? poss Q- Insp mid sept
9	22	Flown-in (July) by water table	13	BBe Gone? Check
7	11	Split from BB II	13	BBe Make last insp., add 1 missing frame
6	10	BB Swarm	13	BBe	Nat Make last insp.
9	2	BB II	12	BB Nat Remove lift & clearer
7	13	Split 2 from BB I	13	BB Nat Time for a look
7	14	Ex Cellbuilder	13	BB Nat Time for a look
7	15	Nuc+BB I QC	13	BB Give comb?
1e 
26e 
27e 
32e 
37e 
38e 
41e 
42e


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks Mike.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

View attachment Bee1.xls


Ha! Uploaded from the picture editor, choosing 'basic uploader' or something like that.

To sort, select all the data cells (not the titles at the top), go Data/Sort, and choose how you want it sorted. Try by hive number (Column B, or by priority (Column A)

To get the lines into outstands and priorities, sort E then A (the Sort function allows three levels of sorting at once.)

You really just have to play with it. Always sort with all data cells highlighted, or you'll lose the lines - everything will get muddled up!

Mike (UK)


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