# Is using swarm cells a bad thing?



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If all of your hives are as similar as possible in strength and configuration and you then use swarm cells from the ones that get swarmy you might be selecting for swarminess. But the swarm cells from a given queen are no more likely to result in swarmy queens than other cells from the same queen. Except for epigenetics. Which says that they might.

Nice fat swarm cells are likely to yield healthy prolific queens, and unless you are really diligent it's probably going to be unlikely that you make significant progress toward any specific breeding program on your own.

In other words - use that cell.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

If you have swarm cells, you may as well use them! Plus nucs are fun to play with, they are like puppies! LOL


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Brad Bee said:


> Does anyone know how heritable the swarming trait is, or is it a trait at all?


Swarminess is a heritable trait.



> Can the swarming urge be diluted by selecting against it?


Yes.


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

Swarming is how honey bees propagate as a species. It seems to me that selecting against propagating would be counterproductive for them. Some religious groups have done that in the past but their beliefs obliterated their group.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I think it probably depends on "why" they are swarming. I had a short TBH that went into swarm mode because it was too small for a colony. I thought those swarm cells were fine because it was my fault that they were swarmy. If you have a full size hive that is always swarming, then that is a trait I would not want to propagate.


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

I don't think so. are they swarming because they have gone gangbusters and they are packed with bees and they filled the hive with nectar and honey? I think that's the kind of bees I want and its up to me to manage them so I don't loose the swarms. Africanized bees swarm a lot and have less problems with varroa


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Swarming is not a bad thing unless you're of the mind to be static and "have" just two or three hives. A good beekeeper ALWAYS has extra equipment ready for swarms and splits when needed.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

1.Does anyone know how heritable the swarming trait is, or is it a trait at all?
Swarming is highly heritable. Any time you use a swarm cell you are selectively breeding for more swarming. It appears back yard bee keepers value swarming very much as most are breeding for more swarming. I have seen bees so highly selected for swarming that you could not make honey from them. Get them to ten frames of bees and half were in the trees. They even swarmed during a dearth. I even had one with only six frames of bees swarm Sept 20. They were happy to swarm with all kinds of empty drawn comb or undrawn foundation available. If this is the type of bees you want keep using those swarm cells.

2. Can the swarming urge be diluted by selecting against it? 
Without question yes.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Swarm sells are a product of the reproductive urge. good luck suppressing that. Are swarm cells a bad thing? I don't think a queen much cares what type of cell they came from. They are a queen and a potential colony. A queen cell is also an sure sign your colony is going to swarm. again, good luck in suppressing that. This is the point that I do see a swarm cell as a bad thing. It is a certain sign you just lost the productivity of that colony for that season. at least not without a lot of additional work. I basically consider any animal that is not healthy enough to reproduce, an animal not worth owning. including a bee colony. Now is reproductive behavior and even reproduction a pain? yep.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Richard Cryberg said:


> 1.Does anyone know how heritable the swarming trait is, or is it a trait at all?
> Swarming is highly heritable. Any time you use a swarm cell you are selectively breeding for more swarming. It appears back yard bee keepers value swarming very much as most are breeding for more swarming. I have seen bees so highly selected for swarming that you could not make honey from them. Get them to ten frames of bees and half were in the trees. They even swarmed during a dearth. I even had one with only six frames of bees swarm Sept 20. They were happy to swarm with all kinds of empty drawn comb or undrawn foundation available. If this is the type of bees you want keep using those swarm cells.
> 
> 2. Can the swarming urge be diluted by selecting against it?
> Without question yes.


I don't buy that for a second.

A higher or lower level of 'swarminess' can certainly be selected for and exaggerated via selective breeding.

...at the same time, any healthy colony will swarm under the proper conditions, and I'd challenge anyone to provide data that shows some epigenetic link between the regular production of swarm cells from a colony with a mean or low propensity to swarm, and increased swarminess in the offspring of that queen.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Richard Cryberg said:


> Any time you use a swarm cell you are selectively breeding for more swarming.


"Any time", sorry, but that is simply not true in general. Sure, mindlessly propagating swarm cells on every occurrence MAY (and likely will) lead to increased swarming. So may building your apiary using only captured swarms. However, if I've got a colony with the original queen going into her 3rd year and who has made record yields in past 2 seasons, low mite counts, and gentle, you better believe that I'll grab that nice swarm cell and be thankful. Our goal when bees are properly managed is that swarming be minimal, but if not then you need to seriously look at your stock and dedicate some resources to improve the characteristics. However, to presume that every swarm occurrence is somehow a genetic defect is really a gross over simplification. Everyone, even backyard beekeepers, need to be vigilant on managing for swarming, and not propagate "swarmy" bees. Learn to understand the difference between swarmy bees and poor swarm management.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

AstroBee said:


> "Any time", sorry, but that is simply not true in general. Sure, mindlessly propagating swarm cells on every occurrence MAY (and likely will) lead to increased swarming.


Any time you propagate from a swarm cell will just like you say "lead to increased swarming. That is a fact and well proven. Of course you can throw out 15,000 years of man's experience breeding animals and plants and deny it if you wish. That 15,000 years says loud and clear you will get what you select for. 

I never said you should never use a swarm cell to propagate. That is a choice you make as a bee keeper. Picking the parent(s) to propagate from is always a trade off of pluses and minuses no matter what plant or animal you are propagating. I can easily see occasions where I would consider propagation from a queen whose offspring want to build swarm cells. Actually, I probably would graft from her rather than fooling around with swarm cells but that is simply because it is so easy to graft there is little reason to mess around with swarm cells as far as I am concerned. Unless I happened to pull the whole frame and start a nuc with it and grub out excessive swarm cells. While I say I can see cases where I would use such cells or eggs from such a queen she better be really special. You stated one of the exceptions I would notice. A three year old queen that has never swarmed is a pretty valuable gal. If she is three around my place she has to have done really well or I would have long since pinched her. If she has done well that means she produced lots of brood and made lots of honey. She must produce workers with a good temper. She has not swarmed as I do not keep queens that swarm even if I capture the swarm and the truth is I generally do not even try to capture them. A queen that swarmed just gets pinched right away if I capture the swarm. The hive that swarmed gets all swarm cells pinched and a new queen. That three year old queen is a world of difference compared to a three month old queen or even a one year old queen that wants to swarm. The three year old has proven value. The three month or one year old is proven junk.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Richard, what mechanism or data are you relying on?

I don't believe what you are saying is true. If I take a 2 deep colony and shove them into a 5 frame nuc box with more bees than can fit in the box, they will make swarm cells. Nothing about these swarm cells is because they are 'swarmy' .... they are just bees being bees.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Richard Cryberg said:


> Any time you propagate from a swarm cell will just like you say "lead to increased swarming.


Sometimes the context of a quote gets muddled, so just to be clear, I didn't say that exactly the way you presented it. What I said was: "Sure, mindlessly propagating swarm cells on every occurrence MAY (and likely will) lead to increased swarming."


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

So.



The swarms I catch will breed swarmy bees because they came from swarms of bees that made a swarm of swarmy bees?
Can someone Doctor Suess that up a little better please?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Richard Cryberg said:


> That three year old queen is a world of difference compared to a three month old queen or even a one year old queen that wants to swarm. The three year old has proven value. The three month or one year old is proven junk.



On this we are in close agreement. I simply do not tolerate queens that swarm at a young age based on no fault of the beekeeper. To me, this is a fundamental component of a breeding program. Rapid swarmers are culled. Perhaps others feel differently, and that's fine, but one of my primary objectives is honey production and there is no way that can be achieved if you're chasing bees and pulling them out of trees. That said, it is the context of the cell that matters to me. I will use swarm cells, but I need to be pretty certain that its MY fault. In my early days of beekeeping I tended to use more swarm cells, now I often have a cell builder going all season, so just finding homes for my prized cells is challenging at times.


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

so then if it's an outstanding colony and they build up strong and fast and they make a lot of honey and you were thinking maybe i'll graft out of that colony then it's ok to use swarm cells from that colony but if they are a colony that doesn't build up doesn't make any honey because it is swarmy and you wouldn't want to graft from it then you don't want any queens from that colony under any circumstances. sounds like common sense to me


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

aunt betty said:


> Swarming is not a bad thing unless you're of the mind to be static and "have" just two or three hives. A good beekeeper ALWAYS has extra equipment ready for swarms and splits when needed.


 I don't want my bees swarming i'm to old to chase bees in trees I would rather manipulate my bees and make nucs or splits instead of chasing swarms.


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## DougP (Jan 22, 2016)

So I guess the question is - is an egg laid in a swarm cell different genetically than an egg laid in a supercedure cell or for that matter in a worker cell? Or secondly, does a swarm cell cause genetic differences to be expressed while the larva grows?
Possibly, but I would be doubtful.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

deknow said:


> Richard, what mechanism or data are you relying on?
> 
> I don't believe what you are saying is true. If I take a 2 deep colony and shove them into a 5 frame nuc box with more bees than can fit in the box, they will make swarm cells. Nothing about these swarm cells is because they are 'swarmy' .... they are just bees being bees.


Dean if you purposely provoke the swarming impulse that is your fault, not the bees fault. If you have a hive you love and the way you propagate that hive is purposely crowd them to induce them to make swarm cells go ahead. It is a lot easier to learn to graft but to each his own. On the other hand if you have a colony that is covering say 12 deep frames and has available another 8 empty deep drawn frames and perhaps an empty honey super and that colony starts building swarm cells I suggest it is not a good idea to use those cells. I have seen more than one colony do exactly that. All kinds of room and swarm cells all over the place. When I have kept such bees all I got was more swarms. I got that line from a guy who I watched closely for several years after I got that one colony from him and watched him fight every year trying to keep enough bees in the box to make a little dribble of honey and gripe constantly about how bee keeping was so much harder today than it used to be when he used to get great honey yields. You know what? His forage today is better than it was 30 years ago when he got great honey yields. He has propagated exclusively from swarm cells now for 40 years. Sure has worked well for him hasn't it?

On the flip side I have read what some people have done to try and select against swarming. For example only breed from three year old queens that have headed productive hives the first two years. And, before grafting from them crowd them badly and eliminate from the breeding pool all those that swarm. The net result of years of doing this is bees that seldom swarm and are highly productive and queens that routinely have several productive years.

There is no magic about breeding bees. There are lots of published studies on the results of selecting for various traits that show bees can be selected just like any other plant or animal. You are not going to accomplish much positive with two or three hives. But, you sure can undo others efforts with two or three hives. You will get what you breed for.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

..there could be epigenetic differences...but the person making the claims seems unwilling to provide any data or propose any mechanism to support his claims. I say bogus.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Richard, there are lots of senereos where bees swarm without being swarmy.

Your claim:


> Any time you use a swarm cell you are selectively breeding for more swarming.


Is flat out false, and several posts (not just mine) attempted to clarify and correct.

I do graft (and ive taught grafting to lots of beekeepers because I think it is a valuable skill). 

...but forcing swarm cells is a great way for beekeepers that don't graft to raise really good queens.....so I teach that as well.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Swarm cells won't cause bees to be more prone to swarming anymore than supercedure cells will make them more prone to supercede. I agree with deknow that is a false statement.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Sorry - I know this is off the subject, but are very many queens still in use when they are 3 years old?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

https://www.google.com/search?clien...ity+as+a+trait+in+honeybees&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

there's no shortage of discussion in the literature regarding the propensity to swarm as being a trait that can manifest itself to a greater or lesser degree across strains and from one colony to the next.

during my first years with bees i made increase and replaced winter losses by catching swarms. the result was that i ended up with an apiary full of bees that were very good at swarming. i am assuming that the survivor stock we are working with are here today in part because of being successful swarmers.

i decided to start propagating from colonies that responded favorably to swarm prevention while culling those colonies that failed to respond to swarm prevention. there may be other factors at play, but i've seen my swarming rate go from 100% in 2013, to 50% in 2014, to 8.6% in 2015.

it's become pretty obvious to me that some colonies are much more easily persuaded not to swarm than others; and i have no problem attributing that to an inheritable trait not unlike productivity, frugality, defensiveness, propolizing, ect.

i believe astrobee's comments on the topic are right on the money.

brad, i don't think it's as much to do with the type of cell but rather the nature of the colony that produced it. even then the nature of the colony that the new queen will produce will be influenced as much or more by the genetic contribution of the multiple drones she ends up mating with. it's more likely that the collective mindset of the workers are what determine whether or not a colony goes into swarm mode. jmho.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> Sorry - I know this is off the subject, but are very many queens still in use when they are 3 years old?


I have several going in to there third year. Thats two years they didn't swarm and if their colonies are still strong, I will indeed propagate them. They have made good crops and wintered well in cold country or they would have already been replaced.. Whats not to like?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't think it is the cell but the genetic make up of your bees.
If they are swarmpy like the old world carnis then it doesn't matter which
cell you are using. The new world carnis is less likely to swarm than the old one that
I have read. The Russians and Italians do make the supersedure cells ahead of time. But
that does not mean they will swarm. Sometimes there will be an egg inside the cell cup. Overtime
they will take out the egg and only keep the cell cup for comfort just in case. Now I just leave these
cups alone because if I take them out the bees will make more on the frame. That will destroy a lot
of the brood comb. So it depends on what kind of bees you have.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Vance G said:


> I have several going in to there third year. Thats two years they didn't swarm and if their colonies are still strong, I will indeed propagate them. They have made good crops and wintered well in cold country or they would have already been replaced.. Whats not to like?


Me too. These are the "money" queens. I have several right now that are going into their 3rd year and laying strong. One is even an II queen and still has her numbered disc.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> but i've seen my swarming rate go from 100% in 2013, to 50% in 2014, to 8.6% in 2015.


Wow, nice job! Any idea on what most led to your improved success, i.e., culling of swarmy bees vs improved methods of swarm control?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

AstroBee said:


> Wow, nice job! Any idea on what most led to your improved success, i.e., culling of swarmy bees vs improved methods of swarm control?


many thanks ab. as with a lot of things beekeeping it's a combination of factors. many more of my colonies now have grafted queens vs. caught swarm queens. but i've also got a lot more drawn comb to work with and i'm having pretty good luck with a tweak or two to walt wright's checkerboarding. i posted about it here:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?319281-checkerboarding-2015


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

This is interesting reading to me because I have built my operation, as small as it is, almost exclusively from swarms. I have only purchased one nucleus colony, but the rest have been caught swarms and I am holding steady at around 30+ colonies. I will have to agree that there isn't a difference in cells. A queen cell is a queen cell is a queen cell. However, I also agree that there are certain colonies that have a tendency to reproduce at a higher rate than other colonies. Being in an area with so many feral colonies, I think that mites and other pests have selected for more frequent swarm behavior. There is also PR literature out there that supports that. Also, it falls into the realm of common sense. 
With all that being said, I can tell you with a 100% guarantee that if I simply let all of my colonies do as they please, every one of them will swarm during swarm season. Even the ones with the least propensity to swarm. BUT....if I keep that brood nest open, I can almost give you the same 100% guarantee that swarming will be almost nonexistent. Nothing beats keeping the brood nest open for swarm prevention. 
Lastly, queen selection for any trait is well and good and I practice that myself. However, what about the drones? You can't forget about the drones! Again, being in an area with many feral colonies, selecting for traits helps but is in no way guaranteed due to the drones from unmanaged colonies. 
1) keep brood nest open and do it on a timely basis. Empty comb is a MUST.
2) select queens AND drones from COLONIES that have a low propensity to swarm.
3) KEEP BROOD NEST OPEN!


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Duplicate post.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Does anyone know how heritable the swarming trait is, or is it a trait at all?

Swarming is how bees reproduce. Here is a quote that mirrors my opinion:

"For years our bee journals have been printing reams of articles on the question of a non-swarming strain of bees. It has always seemed to me there was a lot of time wasted advocating such an improbable accomplishment, because nature would hardly yield to an arrangement that in itself might destroy the species. If accomplished it would be tantamount to breeding the mating instinct out of domestic animals." --P.C. Chadwick ABJ, April 1936

I don't consider bees that are trying to swarm when they should (prime swarm season, strong colony) to be swarmy. They are just bees. There are "swarmy" bees, but those are the ones that swarm when they shouldn't (not prime swarm season, not crowded, in a dearth etc.) or swarm and afterswarm and afterswarm until they swarm themselves to death. Those I do not breed from. I love swarm cells from a healthy good colony under normal swarm conditions. They make great queens. It reminds me of the line in the movie Alien Nation where the insult is "your mother mates out of season". Bees that swarm out of season are probably swarmy bees...


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> Sorry - I know this is off the subject, but are very many queens still in use when they are 3 years old?


I don't find many 3 year old queens and the ones I do fine are almost all superceded in their third season.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Duncan151 said:


> If you have swarm cells, you may as well use them! Plus nucs are fun to play with, they are like puppies! LOL


Now that is just plain funny!


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

David LaFerney said:


> Sorry - I know this is off the subject, but are very many queens still in use when they are 3 years old?




OK, since more than one has commented, let me explain. I used "3rd year" in an earlier post as a near bullet-proof example of propagating swarm cells that would cause zero problems. Sure, I would propagate from younger queens, but I do this within a reasonably well-understood population that I'm managing. As I've described before, it is the context of that cell that matters to me. That said, I do believe beekeepers, particularly newbees, can nudge their apiaries into being more swarm prone if they don't practice careful observation. There was a new poster who recently captured something like 9 swarms in a very brief period of time. If I had captured those swarms, I would be on very high alert to identify their swarming tendencies and I would certainly not be propagating swarm cells from them until I better understood their behaviors. I honestly don't utilze many swarms cells anymore. Not because I feel they are lead to further swarming, but I have too many scheduled queens going to stop everything and find a home for it. I think Squarepeg is a great example of someone who was managing bees with high swarm tendencies who managed to overcome most of the problems with selection and improved swarm prevention.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

aunt betty said:


> So.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My Bees are stuffed tightly in the box
There's cells to use that people knocks
Cells sometimes work and that's a fact
This thread could use a lot more tact
I'm going to use swarm cells for more bees
Next year they'll all be hanging in the trees
Grafting selects for just exactly what?
I've said enough, my mouth I'll shut...


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Excellent!


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Breeders do not refer to it as "swarminess", but rather "buildup rate", a trait that is influenced by selective breeding. The actual calendar date will depend on the number of bees carried over winter, type and size of hive, the number combs, the resources available, etc.

A buildup rate appropriate for your area is a good thing, especially if you have all the details timed to take full advantage of the peak Spring nectar / pollen flow. Timing the population buildup with the peak of the Spring maximizes the total number of bees and honey.

Southern California tends to have mild winters through which most colonies increase. Commercial pollinators make nucleus colonies right after August treatments, and feed them through January to be ready to pollinate the almond crops. Russian and Carniolan bees usually do not build up in time for almonds, though there may be exceptions.

Other beekeepers in other areas have other priorities. Try to breed for your purpose, as dictated by your area.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Now now.....you better look out, or you might say something smart, on purpose.

+1


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

it's a pretty simple concept, If you pull swarm cells from an overly swarmy colony it's likely to produce another overly swarmy colony. If you pull swarm cells from a colony that was an awesome producer, you will probably get another colony that is a good producer So in otherwords if you like the colony and it's traits and find swarm cells, USE THEM. If it's a junk colony and you find swarm cells don't cull the cells and the queen and give it a new queen. It isn't rocket surgery.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Yes, high buildup rate bees in tiny beehives are indeed "swarmy"! A colony that is an awesome producer was likely well-managed last year, and is likely living in a hive that is appropriately sized for *this* year in *your* area.

The same colony in the wrong place and the wrong conditions are junk bees. Get them a better beekeeper. Oops, I'm not being PC.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

agree with dean. really good post kc.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thank you guys. :gh:


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

kilocharlie said:


> Yes, high buildup rate bees in tiny beehives are indeed "swarmy"! A colony that is an awesome producer was likely well-managed last year, and is likely living in a hive that is appropriately sized for *this* year in *your* area.
> 
> The same colony in the wrong place and the wrong conditions are junk bees. Get them a better beekeeper. Oops, I'm not being PC.


Maybe "junk bees" isn't the best way to have put it, but if a hive is excessively swarmy under your cultural practices then you should probably cull them from your breeding program - if you have one.

For example if a hive required 4 deeps overwinter as an "appropriately sized" setup and to not be swarmy - maybe they would be awesome bees for someone else, but not for me because that's not my standard practice. Not many people would consider someone to be a bad beekeeper for not being willing to accomodate such bees. Just an example of course.

Also some bees - Africans FE - have it in their nature to swarm excessively and not store an excess of honey no matter what. I think it would be appropriate (even if not exactly PC) to consider those as "junk" for the purposes of making a honey crop and you wouldn't use those cells. I think something like that that is clearly what HarleyCraig meant.

I want to be able to treat all of my overwintered hives about the same - and for them to be productive without lots of deep inspections and intensive individualized swarm management. I just don't have time for that kind of hand holding in the spring. So I might cull genetics that would be awesome under someone elses care because they are swarmy under mine. If that makes me a bad beekeeper - or makes them a "better beekeeper" then I guess I just have to live with it.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

kilocharlie said:


> Breeders do not refer to it as "swarminess", but rather "buildup rate", a trait that is influenced by selective breeding. The actual calendar date will depend on the number of bees carried over winter, type and size of hive, the number combs, the resources available, etc.


Sorry, I think we're talking about two different things. A "buildup rate" is typically something an aware beekeeper can observe, monitor, and provide relief for. Truly swarmy bees will swarm WAY before typical swarm triggers are encountered. It is not an inappropriate build-up rate that led to the swarm, its that the bees have other "intentions". That said, newbees can be caught off guard managing quick building bees and, yes that will result in a swarm, but it has nothing (or very little) to do with their swarming tendencies - just inappropriate management. The difference is that if you stay ahead of these bees you can head off swarming and maintain really big colonies and make LOTS of honey. Bees that swarm at the drop of a hat, good luck! These have no place in a yard that intends to produce honey.

That said, yes for breeders targeting a particular area/crop/customer they would like to achieve some uniformity in their build up rates. This makes their job MUCH easier as everyone can be treated in a very similar way (within reason) - much more efficient.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Admittedly, we are screwing up our environment at a faster rate than we can even measure, and it may indeed be showing up in bees swarming in very small numbers, both earlier and later than they would have in better conditions. I have observed plenty of that.

That aside (careful, here, or I'll learn how to spell ASSUME), given a fixed box size and fixed amount of brood comb, early starting / high buildup rate bees swarm earlier than late starting / slow buildup bees, especially so if feeding the former and not feeding the latter! One example that does not conform to this model is Russian bees. They would be considered late starting / very high, accelerating buildup rate (suppose peak production to be approx 3,500 eggs / day). Not known for early swarms, they do swarm suddenly once production gets going.

A skillful beekeeper who stays on top of what's happening in his hives, or perhaps has observation hives, can select and breed bees that are timed to the major blooms in his area. This most often shows up as "high honey production" colonies - just he bees that built up pretty close to exactly right before the peak of either the local bloom, or to take best advantages of the beekeepers practices (such as moving them around on his truck to other blooms).

A small scale beekeeper may adapt by choosing various hive and frame sizes, or by managing differently. A large scale beekeeper may not have that option.

I'm not too quick to reject live bees as "junk bees" - they are descendants of bees that have survived somewhere on this planet for centuries untold, without the "help" of some two-legged mismanager, and they have thrived enough to start their own colony (unless helped by said human). I guarantee you that their colony survived last winter. Because of our transportation, they just might not be timed and adapted to their specific local environment. I'm not ridiculing the concept of "junk bees", there are some colonies every year that just are not going to make it anywhere on the face of the Earth. Mostly we apply that monicker to bees that just need to be placed in more appropriate condiditons, and perhaps with different practices.

I send the late-timed bees North of me. They don't build up in time for almond pollination, but they just might do great up in Washington / Idaho / Montana / North & South Dakota. Not all colonies are well enough adapted for such a move - some colonies won't make it. So graft a lot of queens, choose the best, cull the worst, introduce bees with desirable traits and improve your stock.

I'm not calling anyone a bad beekeeper - just being silly. *Its usually matching the bee's built-in timing to the blooms in the area and the beekeeper's practices that gets good results.* That, and some good old dumb luck. A good beekeeper can park his bees in a promising bloom and get whacked by a neighbor spraying something lethal the next day.

I do notice that some beekeepers who have only ever obtained bees by swarms, never purchasing a hived colony, a nuc', nor a package, tend to lose interest in very small swarms. "They ain't gonna make it. It's just not worth it". They'll hop right to vacuuming out an established colony that has a million bees in an attic.

I'll give either colony a chance. I've both succeed, and both types fail. Who knows what we have or have not screwed up that affects these bees or those bees? With new chemicals, broadcasting frequencies, nature "improving" practices every year, "junk bees" just may be the ticket. A year later, I'll know their colony's traits, and be able to make decisions about how best to manage them.

Apologies for a long post, but while on the topic of swarms, a few words on keeping them in their hives. I've had almost all my swarms abscond in the last 2 years, until my mentor told me to put them on drawn comb over a newspaper sheet above an established colony. Only get 1 of the 2 queens, but can split them later and introduce a carefully bred queen to the queenless half. So far, it's working


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