# Do you believe that glued frames are stronger than non-glued?



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Yes, or no....


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Yes


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

I make my own frames and have tried making them with brads, staples, and glue, in every combination possible. the "Angry Gorilla" test (pulling on them until they fail) does not quantify the strength of the frames, but it is pretty darn clear that glued frames are much stronger than those that are only mechanically fastened. FWIW, i use titebond II glue. It's a little bit thicker than TBIII and doesn't drip/run as much. The angry gorilla test doesn;t indicate any noticible difference between using TBII and TBIII.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Of course proper application of glue* makes frame joints stronger.


The cost of the glue itself is inconsequential. Of course, the other investment required is the time to apply the glue, but that investment is more than recovered in frame life and/or the time & dollars spent to deal with broken unglued frames.


* a proper glue is one meeting similar PVA specifications as Titebond II or Titebond III. CA "superglues" are not appropriate for this application.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

Yeah, a common thing you'll hear is that the nails are just there to hold the frame together while the glue dries. I've seen properly glued wood break on either side of the glued joint before, but not on the joint, and that pretty much sold me on the stuff.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Yes


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I am generous with tightbond II. Crazy generous! LOL


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## Pete O (Jul 13, 2013)

Kind of a silly question. Of course glue is better unless you are using a glue not meant for the purpose.


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## Levi's Bees (Feb 7, 2014)

* a proper glue is one meeting similar PVA specifications as Titebond II or Titebond III. CA "superglues" are not appropriate for this application

what would be a good glue for the application for frames??


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Glue strength for frames vs staples; no contest. I used to build and fly Radio Control planes so I was already a believer! It takes me longer to properly apply glue to a joint than some people spend on the whole operation but they don't come apart even when someone wracks away on the top bar with a frame gripper


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Yes.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> what would be a good glue for the application for frames??

I use Titebond II. Another popular glue for exterior wood-wood applications is Titebond III. There are also exterior wood glues by other manufacturers, but be sure to choose _exterior _wood glue.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

yes


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I think Dunkel is just being contrary.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Have to ask after reading some of the replies, does anyone use glue on frames and NO NAILS?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> does anyone use glue on frames and NO NAILS?

Yes, I use _no _nails.  However, I do use _staples _along with glue. 



Those who wish to see how _individual _members voted can click on the underlined numbers when looking at the poll results above.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

who voted no? lol


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ian said:


> who voted no? lol


Dunkel


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

philip.devos said:


> Have to ask after reading some of the replies, does anyone use glue on frames and NO NAILS?


I think this is an important question. Is the pole asking if glue is stronger than the a proper stapled joint applied in the correct way? If you are going to use both then the poll is a dumb question.

I suggest that this can only be answered by qualified testing. In one case you glue the joint with no other mechanical fasteners. The other cases you staple the joint with a number of staplers of different lengths and sizes. In all cases there must be a cross staple in the top bar. There must be a minimum of 100 frames tested in each category so you get a good standard deviation. The frames should be put in strong hives for one season and have the bees propolize the heck out of them (like they do in my hives). At the end of the season a standard pull test machine should be used to pull the frames apart recording the maximum pull force. Many engineering labs in schools across the country can do this for free.

Now the only thing to ask is what is necessary and what is overkill. If the comb would be thrown from a frame in an extraction process before the frame parts come apart then there is no sense in having the frame joints stronger. Unless, unless, the failure of the frame occurs at the time of removal from the box and not from the extraction process itself.

When I helped Mark B. extract honey in NewHartford we flipped the boxes over and dumped them on to a flat surface and if the frames didn't fall out you could just push on the bottom bars and remove the box and all the frames would just fall to one side. There were a few where the frames just collapsed under their own weight and I would hear Mark mumbling to himself about buying someone else's equipment and then he would start throwing frame parts in the corner of the room. I guess it was a burn pile.

Taking a pole of what beekeepers think is not very scientific ... just saying. In another topic the forum was ridiculing STEM as it has no usefulness in beekeeping. Really?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Brian, the question is clearly stated in the Thread Title. Though I guess nails or staples are understood to be used also. That's the way I read it.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

woo, looks like two for no!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> There must be a minimum of 100 frames tested in each category so you get a good standard deviation.


OK, Ace, how many frames have _you _personally assembled?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I think a better asked question, and probably what the original poster was getting at is, 
Is it worth the extra time to glue the frames?

that answer will more opinions


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Though I guess nails or staples are understood to be used also.


Then the poll is basically asking a dumb question.

Nails should not even be considered. Nails typically are too big in diameter and do more damage then good. Once the wood splits the holding power is zero. Because the staple is inserted in one controlled shot it can be a much finer wire diameter. Some staples are rosin coated which is a glue in itself or they are barbed which give them greater pull strength.

edit: I should add if you are guessing it is not clear is it?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Brian, nails have been used since the start of removable frames, 
I am glad not to have to nail my frames, thank goodness for the staple gun


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Then the poll is basically asking a dumb question


Pretty much my opinion. Just wasn't gonna say so out loud. Of course nails or staples plus glue is better than just nails.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> Of course nails or staples plus glue is better than just nails.


Of course!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BeeCurious said:


> Of course!


Winter doaldrums Bee?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I was inspired by another thread where someone was suggesting (once again) that glue doesn’t add to the strength of frames. 

Most people recognize the benefits of using a good glue when assembling frames...


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Of course using glue is stronger than not using at all.
For me I use small nail and bee wax when assembling the bee frames. 
It works so far. But I also use fishing line to wire the frames to make
them stronger. The queen will not lay on the wired metal brood holes but on the
fishing line it will.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian said:


> Brian, nails have been used since the start of removable frames,


Agreed, it explains the belief that glue must be used also.



sqkcrk said:


> Of course nails or staples plus glue is better than just nails.


And wrapping the corners with fiberglass mesh painted with epoxy would be better yet. Where do you stop? Metal corner braces or just machine the frames out of aluminum billet?

Use your glue folks. Nothing says you can't.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I use a brad nail to hold the frame while the glue drys. If there was a faster way to hold the frames together I would not use the brad at all. 

Though I am not quite sure why it matters? If you only want to use a nail.... have at it.

Why glue at all? Because I have slammed frames together in the past without glue and somehow it is always that frame that gets propolised in and it pulls apart when attempting to pry it out of the box. Glue frames can take a lot of prying without coming apart.


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## dp2k (Apr 22, 2012)

I would agree that adding glue adds to the strength of the joint. As Acebird points out, there are probably many places that could measure them in a “qualified” manner. Following on the work by others in using shop-built machines to test the relative strength of glues and joints in woodworking, (http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/index.html) you could build an inexpensive rig to test the breaking point of frames using different assembly methods. The general idea is as follows, and a rough sketch is attached.
1.	Using a flat, non-flexing surface as a base, attach a couple of heavy structural angle brackets with the uprights 17 ¾ inches apart. 
2.	Clamp the frame side bars of an assembled top bar & sides to the brackets. 
3.	Use a small hydraulic bottle jack to apply force to the center of the top bar. A piece of wood or steel should be placed between the jack and the top bar to equalize the pressure.
4.	Use a digital video camera to record the measurement on a bathroom scale as the jack is pumped up and the assembly reaches a breaking point. 
This wouldn't produce results good enough to win any science prizes, but it would measure the relative strength of various joint assemblies. 
I don’t have any idea how to measure what the necessary strength of a frame NEEDS to be however. From an economic point of view, it’s a waste to spend money or time to make the frames any stronger than necessary. Given that we don’t know how strong that needs to be, many of us probably err on the side of overkill .


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

I glue it only takes a few seconds. I think it gives them strength. The anchors under the top bar are most important.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

I am a little leary of hopping in on this one. I have only used air gun with brad nails using either 1" or 1 1/4", and I cross nail both top and bottom. I started buying unassembled frames 2 years ago. I have has only one frame where bottom came off due to lousy nailing. 

At what point do I find out that my frames are not stronger? What am I looking for? By the second year the bees have built comb to attach all sides, as I'm also foundationless. For Christmas I got a stapler gun for air compressor with a box of 1" staples. I haven't opened it yet, maybe I should try to return it to the store? I increased this year and have a bunch of frames to assemble.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Check the specifications on that stapler before you make a decision on returning it. Many pneumatic staplers can accept a range of staple lengths. I'd check to see if your stapler can use staples longer than 1" as well.


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## brettj777 (Feb 27, 2013)

I borrowed a brad nailer and a staple gun (air powered). I assembled (nails and glue) about 20 frames before I got it, that is a hell I would not knowing go back to!

I made a frame jig and can do 10 frames at a time. Yes glue is tedious, but I definitely think it's worth my time.

But I WHOLEHEARTEDLY support air powered staplers/nailers (plus glue)! They are a lifesaver. (and I'm only doing 150 frames...)


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

In actual use there is not a straight up even pull on the top bar. The hive tool pries up on one side usually and then often the length of the top bar becomes a lever to loosen the other end of the frame. Yes I know that is not the proper way, but watch some youtube vid. and you will see the abuse the frame joints take. Watch someone pulling frames with a frame gripper without first loosening both ends makes me cringe.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

dp2k said:


> As Acebird points out, there are probably many places that could measure them in a “qualified” manner.


You will get some information from the set up that you suggest but testing machines pull at a constant rate (they are screw driven). If you are testing a glue joint only it will be a catastropic failure. With staples there will be some failure as the joint moves but it will not let go all at once.



> The hive tool pries up on one side usually and then often the length of the top bar becomes a lever to loosen the other end of the frame.


Maybe this is why I see no reason for glue. What is the point of ripping the frame directly up out of the box? Isn't that going to kill bees? I wedge two frames apart first and then pick the frame out of the box with a frame gripper or just my hand if it is totally loose. And believe me my frames are stuck in there because I don't frequent the hive. If I can pull on the top and bottom bars with all my might and it doesn't come apart the frame is never going to see that much force(by me anyway). Maybe some people should be taught how to extract a frame. It might save them a lot of time building frames they destroy for no reason.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

brettj777 said:


> I borrowed a brad nailer and a staple gun (air powered).


Brads are worse then nails for holding power. They have no coating or serrated shank and the head is almost non existent so they pull through the wood very easy. Even if you are using glue use a staple. The strength of a glue joint is dependent on how tightly you clamp the two pieces of wood together. A brad nailer will not pull the wood together so even your glue joint is weak.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

Acebird said:


> Nails should not even be considered. Nails typically are too big in diameter and do more damage then good


What kind of nails are you trying to use in your frames? I'm using finishing nails that are thinner than some staples I've seen, and splitting has never been anywhere close to being an issue.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

"These cement and resin coated specialty nails are specifically designed with a smaller diameter to reduce splitting and cracking during assembly.
HD-210 - Specialty Nails"

Quote from catalog on frame assembly nails.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

if you dull the point on nails before nailing, that will greatly reduce splitting


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

The question of the thread is what caused me to ask about gluing without nailing. The thread question begs the question "If gluing is superior to nailing, then why nail?"

In the past I have nailed only. In the future I will glue first, then nail (or staple).


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> If gluing is superior to nailing, then why nail?

If you are going to glue, then the joint faces need to be held in close contact until the glue sets. You can do that with clamps, but staples are a lot faster.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

philip.devos said:


> The thread question begs the question "If gluing is superior to nailing, then why nail?"


No. That was not the intent. The intent was to show that a very large majority of beekeepers use glue because it strengthens the frame. 

New beekeepers would benefit from using glue when they nail their frames together. And yes! Most of them are using nails.... Unless they're buying assembled frames which have fortunately, been glued. 

"Glue only " would be too slow when assembling a lot of frames.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

crofter said:


> "These cement and resin coated specialty nails are specifically designed with a smaller diameter to reduce splitting and cracking during assembly.
> HD-210 - Specialty Nails"
> 
> Quote from catalog on frame assembly nails.


And the post before yours says they are using finish nails. Probably used by most beginners because it is what they have.



> if you dull the point on nails before nailing, that will greatly reduce splitting


And reduce pull strength compared to one that didn't split the wood. My point is common nails are iffy. If nails are used it should be a rosin coated box nail (specialty nail, thinner wire, thinner head). Still won't beat a crown staple because it goes in with one stroke.




> "If gluing is superior to nailing, then why nail?"


You need the nail to compress the joint and prevent motion while the glue cures. Also the glue joint will result in a catastrophic failure when it does fail. The nail or staple will keep the frame together long enough to get the frame out (when you do it wrong).


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

> And the post before yours says they are using finish nails. Probably used by most beginners because it is what they have.


Wrong again! 

The "beginners" will have 1 1/4“ 17 ga. nails that EVERY bee supplier sells. 

The nails are often included with the frame pieces...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BeeCurious said:


> "Glue only " would be too slow when assembling a lot of frames.


I'm just imagining that if one had 10 nailing jigs that gluing and assembling frames wouldn't be all that slow. That by the time you had the tenth set put together that the first set would be ready to take out of the jig w/out any problems. In my mind anyway. I don't really know how practical that would be.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> I'm just imagining that if one had 10 nailing jigs that gluing and assembling frames wouldn't be all that slow. That by the time you had the tenth set put together that the first set would be ready to take out of the jig w/out any problems. In my mind anyway. *I don't really know how practical that would be.*


I know exactly how practical that would be...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BeeCurious said:


> I know exactly how practical that would be...


Okay. How.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> Okay. How.


First, do you know the glue that you occasionally wipe off of your frame assembly jig before loading the next set of frames? Well, picture an increasing buildup of hardened glue on a room full of assembly jigs. 

I understand that your suggestion is purely theoretical...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Should someone wish to only use glue, I bet that someone could come up w/ a simple assmbly jig which one would set bottom bars in place put a dab of glue on each end, stand the end bars in place, put a dab of glue on the tops of the end bars, set the top bars in place, and set a weight on them to hold them in place and go onto the next one.

How do the equipment companies mass produce assembled frames? They have specialized machinery. Do they glue too?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Should someone wish to only use glue, I bet that someone could come up w/ a simple assmbly jig which one would set bottom bars in place put a dab of glue on each end, stand the end bars in place, put a dab of glue on the tops of the end bars, set the top bars in place, and set a weight on them to hold them in place and go onto the next one.
> 
> How do the equipment companies mass produce assembled frames? They have specialized machinery. Do they glue too?


Yes they do but, of course, the key is getting the glue in the right spots, or the "shoulders" of the endbars. A drop in the center does little good when the top or bottom bars have a groove. There was a pretty good video circulating within the past year or so showing one of these machines in production, its pretty ingenious but only as good as the the operator monitoring it no doubt.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> How do the equipment companies mass produce assembled frames?


Mark if you were producing frames on a piece of automatic equipment you could go to an adhesive manufacture and have them formulate a chemically cured glue that would set up in two minutes. It would probably be an epoxy based glue. At a rate of 10 sec. per frame you are only talking 12 frames between injecting the glue and the frame being fully cured. With most glues there is an initial tack that happens quite quickly. You may not have to keep the frame in the clamped state for the full cure. But you will need to que how ever many frames it takes for a full cure before you start banging the frames around. There are literally tons of life saving medical products made this way. When you mass produce something you don't go to HD and buy titebond. You go to titebond and have them formulate what you need.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> its pretty ingenious but only as good as the the operator monitoring it no doubt.


I would doubt it. Ford had a program a while back during the days of "quality circles". Their motto was 100% inspection. None of it was done by humans. Humans are very unreliable when it comes to inspection. If you want quality you build inspection into your automated equipment and you run statistical data on the inspection stations. Now we are talking six signma... Ah, there goes that STEM for beekeeping. Don't want any of that.


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## Dunkel (Jun 12, 2009)

Hey, I wasn't being contrary. I figured it was a trick question Something like the strength of the frames being the materials instead of the assembly. Especially with all the engineers on here


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> There are literally tons of life saving medical products made this way. When you mass produce something you don't go to HD and buy titebond.


What kind of medical products are gluing wood to wood? :scratch: :s Peglegs? :lpf:


Beekeepers want the _strongest _(i.e., the wood fails before the glue joint fails) glue for wood to wood applications. You have _not _demonstrated that alternative glues meet that standard, regardless of application speed/clamp time.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Mark if you were producing frames on a piece of automatic equipment you could go to an adhesive manufacture and have them formulate a chemically cured glue that would set up in two minutes. It would probably be an epoxy based glue. At a rate of 10 sec. per frame you are only talking 12 frames between injecting the glue and the frame being fully cured. With most glues there is an initial tack that happens quite quickly. You may not have to keep the frame in the clamped state for the full cure. But you will need to que how ever many frames it takes for a full cure before you start banging the frames around. There are literally tons of life saving medical products made this way. When you mass produce something you don't go to HD and buy titebond. You go to titebond and have them formulate what you need.


 We had a wood welder in high school, It was a water base glue, cover both side with glue, clamp it and you ran a electro thing down the joint and presto welded wood.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Birdman said:


> We had a wood welder in high school, It was a water base glue, cover both side with glue, clamp it and you ran a electro thing down the joint and presto welded wood.


I have not heard of this technology but it sounds great. Possibly this is what they use to make plywood. They are not clamping each sheet for 20 minutes. But we should ask Rader first he knows are there is to know about this stuff.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Possibly this is what they use to make plywood. They are not clamping each sheet for 20 minutes.


I am not an expert on glue use in plywood manufacture, but references are not hard to find. For instance ....



> Hot pressing is carried out in a hydraulic press incorporating multiple heated platens between which each individual panel assembly is subjected to heat and pressure. Hot press pressure for softwood pine plywood usually range between 1242 to 1380k Pa. [HIGHLIGHT]Platen temperatures of around 120 degree Celsius are used and pressing times for panels 3.5 and 22 mm are 2.75 and 9.5 minutes respectively [/HIGHLIGHT]Baldwin (1981). Very accurate control of pressing times, temperatures and pressure are necessary to ensure adequate adhesive bond development.
> 
> http://fennerschool-associated.anu.edu.au/fpt/plywood/pressing.html


Note the 9.5 minutes and 120 degrees C (*248 degrees F*) at *high pressure* required for proper panel bonding. Not surprisingly, it takes very large, expensive machinery to stack up and press plywood panels in a large group of panels at one time ...










If you explore the site linked above, you will see that PVA glues (yes the same technology used in Titebond II and III) is one of the glue options for plywood manufacture.

If you feel that clamping frames until Titebond glue sets is a burden, no doubt the clamp time could be decreased by additional heat. Some beekeepers do indeed have a _hot room_, but 248 degrees does seem a tad warm to me. Frame production might actually be slower at that temperature! Perhaps _dead _slow. 

Or you could avoid all that hassle by simply just stapling those frames after gluing while they are still in the frame assembly jig.  :lookout:




:gh:

.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird, 

This is an official Polling Place. 

Please stand back 100 feet!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> If you explore the site linked above, you will see that PVA glues (yes the same technology used in Titebond II and III) is one of the glue options for plywood manufacture.
> 
> 
> :gh:


How old is this method? What are they doing in other countries?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

BeeCurious said:


> Acebird,
> 
> This is an official Polling Place.
> 
> Please stand back 100 feet!


This is not the Plywood Forum.....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> How old is this method? What are they doing in other countries?


This is not a Plywood Thread.


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## brettj777 (Feb 27, 2013)

Boy this seems like a really long thread just to tell folks that joints with glue plus staples, nails, or brads are much stronger than unglued joints....


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Hold your horses there, not everyone has voted yet, still too close to call. Mayor Daley has yet to release the results from Cook county.


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## Kiran (Jan 27, 2014)

If the same fasteners are used than glued frames would definitely be stronger.
If using only nails, make sure there are _horizontal_ nails connecting the top bar to the side bars.
Or else, without glue, when the frame is held inside the box by propolis the nails would slip out and the top bar would simply pop off.


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

I just tried a batch of 100 frames with no staples or nails, just titebond3. easy and fast, they stayed square while they dried. pulling them apart the frames broke before the joint.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Jim, looking at the detailed voter results shows that at least one _prominent _DuPage County beekeeper has voted. DuPage County is a Chicago suburb slightly to the west, so perhaps they have some kind of ... _mutually beneficial_ ... arrangement! 

Also noted is that while Acebird has made several posts to this thread, he has not actually voted in the poll.:lookout:


Man has been using glue for many thousands of years. According to this site ...


> The oldest known glue used to hold things together dates back to approximately 200,000 BC, and is from spear stone flakes glued to wood with birch bark tar. The oldest known compound glue was made from plant gum and red ochre approximately 70,000 years BC, and was found in South Africa, so our ancestors were figuring out ways to stick two things together a long, long time ago! Later, people began experimenting with animal parts, such as teeth, hooves, and even fish air bladders.
> 
> 
> https://bartleycollection.com/the-history-of-glue.html


It took until 1955 for the first version of _Titebond _to arrive.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

[QUOTE;1063624]Jim, looking at the detailed voter results shows that at least one _prominent _DuPage County beekeeper has voted. DuPage County is a Chicago suburb slightly to the west, so perhaps they have some kind of ... _mutually beneficial_ ... arrangement! 

I think that historically DuPage county has not voted the same as Cook county. If there were union frame builders that may skew the voting. Now, the environmental impact may skew the voting one way or another.

Tom


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Of course glued joints are stronger. There is a controversy among boatbuilders along these lines. Some feel that a glued and fastened joint is better than a joint that is only glued. Some, including me, believe that glue-only joints are better. This is because fasteners provide paths for water ingress, which can eventually destroy the joint. But few beehives are submerged, so I use both glue and fasteners on my frames.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

rhaldridge said:


> Of course glued joints are stronger.


The vertical sides of my Ulster Observation Hive are held solely by West System Epoxy. Once cured, I was going to insert fasteners but I doubt if I ever will...


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## nobull56 (Mar 30, 2013)

There is one very good reason (?) for not using glue on hive bodies and frames. If you have a frame or a hive body that needs repair it is much easier to repair the frame without scraping old glue off or disassembling the broken part at the glue joint. A lot of “old-timer” beekeepers repair and re-repair hive bodies and hive parts. I have seen them cut 10 frame boxes down to eighth frame just to save the boards! Look in the catalogs; 1)Dadant catalog the ‘frame fixer’ on page 31; 2) Man Lake catalogs' ‘frame savers’ on page 27.

With this said I vote for using glue! 

When a frame becomes damaged it goes in the burn pile. I do not need piles and piles of equipment that needs to be repaired! It is quicker to load 10 frames in a jig, dab glue on each end bar (I then take the time to brush it with a disposable acid brush), slip on either the top or bottom staple to hold together while the glue dries. 

I've timed it I can do 10 new frames quicker than I can repair two.

Now if you have the time and enjoy saving pennies here's your excuse to not use glue!


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

BeeCurious said:


> The vertical sides of my Ulster Observation Hive are held solely by West System Epoxy. Once cured, I was going to insert fasteners but I doubt if I ever will...


Good grief-- that's a beautiful hive!


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

rhaldridge said:


> Good grief-- that's a beautiful hive!


Thank you! 

The box came from Brushy Mountain. Some mahogany bungs dress it up. The top observation assembly is homemade...


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

BeeCurious said:


> Yes, or no....


Bump


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I would say you should always use glue and nails, but I made up some mini-nuc frames a couple weeks ago and didn't nail the bottom bar in. I did a single nail on the sides into the top bar, but they are so short and will support such a light weight it didn't seem necessary. I may pay for that later, we shall see. I didn't have a gorilla around to do any scientific testing.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Just so y'all know, Gorilla Glue is not for assembling Gorillas. Nor is it glue made from Gorillas. Just thought y'all aught to know.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Just so y'all know, Gorilla Glue is not for assembling Gorillas. Nor is it glue made from Gorillas. Just thought y'all aught to know.


You have to put that in your pamphlet


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't actually know if it is true. I just didn't see anything on the label indicating otherwise.

I don't think Gorilla Glue is just for Gorillas either. MBAs can use it too.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Hmm, I guess that it is made by gorillas?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Must be.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

is it stronger? yes. Is it necessary? I find it depends on what maisl you use. the little cheap bad nailer from Harbor freight may not be strong enough with glue. Frames seem to do just fine with the use of my Stanly finish nailer and 1.25 inch finish nails. I am now in the process of building nearly 1000 frames with the use of the #18 1.25 inch wire nails sold for the purpose. My number one issue with these nails is their availability. Plus making 1000 frames by hand nailing is not the best idea. I simply have time to do it that way. I do use wood glue again because I have time to do it. Plus I have some glue I want to get used up. But I do not think it is necessary.

So with hundreds of fraems with glue and hundreds without. I find it more about getting it right whatever your do or do not use.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

Daniel Y said:


> the little cheap bad nailer from Harbor freight may not be strong enough with glue..


How would the type of nailgun affect the strength? The harbor freight nailer uses the exact same nails and staples as bostitch nailers and they are the best on the market.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

NewJoe said:


> How would the type of nailgun affect the strength?


I think you meant to say brand, the type of nailer could make a big difference.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

Acebird said:


> I think you meant to say brand, the type of nailer could make a big difference.


yes I meant brand.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

NewJoe said:


> How would the type of nailgun affect the strength? The harbor freight nailer uses the exact same nails and staples as bostitch nailers and they are the best on the market.


Not the one I got.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

Daniel Y said:


> Not the one I got.


I use the harbor freight nailer/stapler....I do not use the nails or staples that they sell (I have and they work fine) because when I need nails or staples it is closer for me to pick up the Bostitch....they work with mine....:scratch:


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I don't recall the nailer I got from HF. What I can say is the nails for it where straight strips. my finish nailer is 15 degree angle. I cannot get nails for it at Home Depot except in small packages.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

I have a Bostitch angled finish nailer that I use for trim work. I have put a few boxes together with it, and even tried it for frames....I find that the finish nailers do no work as well for frames as the brad nailer/stapler.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

YES glued frame joints are stronger BUT I don't, I use 1/4x3/4 crown staples


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

honeyman46408 said:


> I use 1/4x3/4 crown staples


I would say that staple is a little short. I used 1" in long staples because 1 1/4 won't fit my gun. I would prefer 1 1/4 long.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Acebird said:


> I would say that staple is a little short. I used 1" in long staples because 1 1/4 won't fit my gun. I would prefer 1 1/4 long.


1 1/4" works terrifically! I use the 1 1/4 Bostitch brad nails. Let me tell ya, those puppies ain't coming apart unless you go in with the intent of demolition!


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> I would say that staple is a little short. I used 1" in long staples because 1 1/4 won't fit my gun.


This would be another reason to use a quality glue such as TiteBond II or III.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Lol...not to rain on anyone's parade, but the polling question is of poor quality. Asking whether glued frames are stronger than non-glued frames implies that:

1) glue is the only aspect being looked at.
2) one frame is glued while the other has nothing holding it together, because glue is the only aspect being looked at.
3) nails have nothing to do with the issue, thus comparing apples to oranges ( I prefer oranges, but that's besides the point).

Of course glued frames are stronger than non-glued frames! Especially if glue is the only thing in question!

The question should be along the lines of:
"Are frames nailed and glued stronger than frames that are glued only?"

A second question should follow the first:

"What is more applicable for beekeeping purposes, frames that are nailed only, glued only, or both glued and nailed? If nailed, what kind of nails? If glued, what kind of glue?"

Lol.... I demand a recount!!:gh:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You understand why I haven't taken part in this poll.:thumbsup:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> You understand why I haven't taken part in this poll.

Yes. :lookout:

You told us two weeks earlier that glue was of no value in frames.




Acebird said:


> I tried to pull apart the frame grabbing the top and bottom bar near an end bar and I couldn't do it. Then for the heck of it I squirted some super glue (CA) around the joints.[HIGHLIGHT] I really don't think glue is necessary. With all the moisture swings in a hive I don't think a glue joint is going to last.[/HIGHLIGHT]


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## Redbug (Feb 8, 2014)

TalonRedding said:


> Lol...not to rain on anyone's parade, but the polling question is of poor quality. Asking whether glued frames are stronger than non-glued frames implies that:
> 
> 1) glue is the only aspect being looked at.
> 2) one frame is glued while the other has nothing holding it together, because glue is the only aspect being looked at.
> ...


===============================================

I have to agree. That's like asking if driving a car is better using oil in the engine AND gas or driving the car using gas but NO oil in the engine. 

Maybe a question like glued only or nailed only. 

I have plastic frames...


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> You understand why I haven't taken part in this poll.:thumbsup:


As the No-Glue-Guru you should cast your vote. That way there would be one honest "No" vote. I'm fairly certain that the other three were not serious....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> >
> 
> You told us two weeks earlier that glue was of no value in frames.


It is good that you include what I actually say instead of what you think I say.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> You understand why I haven't taken part in this poll.:thumbsup:


Perhaps I should have made multiple choice an option in this poll. 

It might have made it easier....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> Perhaps I should have made multiple choice an option in this poll.


What you should have done is deleted this poll because the wording is clearly not what you wanted to take a poll on so it is not a serious poll. Because you have not responded to all the posts that had questions on this poll I still am not sure what you really wanted to poll.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

So, Ace, are you now going to create a _*better *_(i.e. _new _and _improved_) poll on gluing frames? :scratch:


How can you pass up an opportunity to show BC how to do it properly? :lookout:


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> I still am not sure what you really wanted to poll.


It's absurd to imagine that someone would not be using fasteners unless they were demonstrating the strength of glue.... 

So, as most everyone understood, the poll asked if members BELIEVED that glue improved the strength of their frames. 

If you don't BELIEVE that glue strengthens frames perhaps you feel that frames are weakened by applying a quality glue... You can include that choice in your poll.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> Perhaps I should have made multiple choice an option in this poll.


A. yes
B. No
C. I'm an idiot


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## Redbug (Feb 8, 2014)

I demand a recount...


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Well... in reality, as the poll indicates. Not many people question whether it is stronger... even people that don't glue would agree that it's STRONGER... but is it necessary?

Where do we draw the line of going overboard?

That is why I created the 2nd poll... I didn't want to see what seemed like an obvious question of if everyone THOUGHT glue and nails was stronger than nails alone... but did they feel it was NEEDED.

That poll is showing a very different result from this one and the discussion is even more so saying differently than just "yes glue and nails are stronger than just nails."

I had just assembled 100 frames and left the glue in the bottle, so I was getting nervous with EVERYONE saying "yes, glue and nails"... but then when the poll was rephrased a lot of people came out of hiding saying "I just nail/staple and my frames are just fine for what I do."

It's a different question, warranting a different answer. One that made me a lot more comfortable in my already made decision!


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

philip.devos said:


> Have to ask after reading some of the replies, does anyone use glue on frames and NO NAILS?


I have some frames in my boxes as a trial. Only Titebond III no nails. After about 2 years - all good.


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## Bob J (Feb 25, 2013)

Yes


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Gilligan said:


> when the poll was rephrased a lot of people came out of hiding


Public polls have the benefit of showing member's responses.... 

There's no hiding.


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