# quality of 2013 package queens from GA/AL?



## R Dewhurst

I bought them from Kelley, which gets them from Hardemans in GA. I hived my packages Saturday, they were released Monday, and I had eggs Wednesday. They are doing pretty good in my view. Even the extra carni and Italian that I got are running the same line as the Russian packages.


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## squarepeg

1 don't have an answer to your question rudy, but in general it has been a more difficult spring due to weather and packages are somewhat less reliable than nucs for starting a new colony.


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## winevines

RudyT said:


> I was told that package queen problems (from GA/AL) seem a bit worse this year, probably influenced by hard winter and cold spells into April. What are experiences good or bad? I have read the messages about problems with queen raising -- my question is does it seem that more delivered packages/queens are having trouble.


There were several loads of packages coming in to Northern Virginia. The late March packages that came in to Virginia which were packaged during the time GA experienced a real drop in temperature were the worst I have ever seen. While a small percentage of failures may be due to beekeeper error or the cold- we are surveying our student class to try and have some hard facts. Off the top of my head I can tell you that 20% had queens dead on arrival, several of the queens died after install in the cage suggesting a queen or virgin queen was shaken in to the package, and several have turned into laying workers- again suggesting a virgin queen who came up North and could not mate due to lack of flying weather and lack of drones. My best guess without the hard data is a nearly 50% or more total failure rate. Thank goodness we have an active nuc program and most had ordered a local nuc. The only good thing I can say is that a year like this feeds our sustainability model promoting making bees from your own bees.


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## AstroBee

Hey Karla,

I also got packages this spring. I suspect from the same supplier. My packages arrived on March 20th out of Wilbanks, and yes very cold temps. Although some of these struggled, none were lost and no queens were lost. These packages were to give a quick boost to my queen rearing activities. So, 100% success on 36 packages. Some of the queens look fantastic, others are just OK, a few are poor, but all alive. Nothing too noteworthy. BTW, I purged all drones out of these packages as I did not want lots of unknown boys hanging around. Also, all bees seem very well-behaved. Achieving 100% success didn't just fall into my lap, it took all of my experience and lots of effort to make it happen. I suspect that losses in the hands of newbees would have been pretty dramatic. Cold weather installs wasn't something I had done before, but having gotten through it I learned some things. I tried to capture these and reported them here on beesource. See thread : http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...esults&highlight=cold+weather+package+install

Had the temps been more like our typical March, I have not doubt that I'd be bursting with bees right now. As it turned out, the cold temps set my schedule back some but things are now progressing well.


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## winevines

AstroBee said:


> I also got packages this spring. I suspect from the same supplier. My packages arrived on March 20th out of Wilbanks, and yes very cold temps.


 NO actually- these came a week later and not the same supplier. They should have pushed the order back IMHO
Glad you made out well.


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## gkervitsky

Located in MD, USA. Received 10 packages from GA on April 6th and installed them all within 18 hours of being shaken. They all looked great and had very active and alert queens. All were set for colony release queens, and all were given 1 gallon cans of feed. The weather did take some overnight dips into freezing range and has been fairly inconsistent. All were given some built comb and some honey frames, half were started in 5 frame equipment, the others in 10 frame. Out of 10 packages, 1 did not release the queen and a replacement queen was obtained and released immediately. Of the 10 packages and 10 released queens, 6 are viable colonies. 2 started in 5 frame equipment are the strongest, and one of them was split. 4 are happily raising drones via workers, released queens were no where to be seen, and the other 4 are struggling but seem viable. The packages dwindle until the first brood emerges, so I suspect that the 6 will survive. One of them, the smallest of the 6 were only covering 1/3 of 5 frames, the queen was active and seemed in control, there were fresh eggs in worker cells, but there was also a sixth frames where there was a small pocket of workers that were obviously anarchists and raising their own drones via laying worker, i.e., cells with multiple (3-4) eggs per cell. At nearly the 1 month mark, I am at 60% 2013 package success. Will probably combine the 4 duds with other colonies this weekend, and hope that warmer and more stable weather turns the tide for the remaining colonies.


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## beryfarmer

I received two packages on March 30 from GA. I live near Philadelphia. Packages were nasty from the getgo. One package never had any eggs produced, the other had partial laying (50 cells) and supercedure procedings. Could find neither queen which were marked and clipped. Packages were released on drawn comb with plenty of stores and feeding. Tried to find replacement queens but was tough because so early in season. Cut out supercedure cells and finally reqeened on April 26th. 5 days later released queens from push in cage. with good acceptance-- i did NOT use a Southern queen from the same source i got my packages. lol in one hive i noticed i had eggs/larvae in the hive at time of queen release....strange since 5 days earlier upon queen introduction saw nothing. Didnt look like worker laying...
Going to let things be and recheck in about 10 days--both hives starting to bring in pollen whereas before rather listless and aggressive.


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## dphillipm

Where are you getting queens in AL.


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## bluegrass

The primary issue this year has been poor weather for mating flights in the south. All of the suppliers have been having trouble with poorly mated queens. If the queens can't fly they don't get mated.

In years like this you see improvement as the season progresses. March queens may have high fail rates, but by May the weather is improved enough that the queens get properly mated. 

I always try and encourage people to order packages later in the season, but year after year we are under constant pressure to go earlier and earlier. Everybody wants their bees early and they start yelling if there are any delays.


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## gmcharlie

Yes, there are more queen problems this year, Its been really cold and nasty in GA and queens have suffered. FYI despite the claims of the NUC sellers, packages are not any worse off. Many of these nucs are nothing more than a new queen with some brood from another hive. A good nuc will have been laying for a month first, and when a 5 rame nuc is placed next to a new package the growth rate is pretty much identical.

My packages this year had a bit over 20% queen issues. Nucs have been running around 18%.... the only difference is that the nucs get weeded out before they get to customers. which is why the price is twice as much. 

I belive a lot of the queen issues have been due to the queen getting chilled at some point. In my experince anytime the queen gets chilled (guess being she gets colder than 60 ish )she goes sterile..... never done any test to prove it, just noticed it.


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## bluegrass

Hands down a quality Nuc is better than a good package of bees. The problem I see with Nucs is that only about 10% of what is produced are quality Nucs. There are a lot of rather newish beeks making and selling Nucs now days. Not that they are intentionally scamming anybody, but it is way too easy to throw 5 frames in a box, add a mail order queen, and sell it for $130.00 to the droves of people who are willing to hand over the cash to get a nuc.

Package bees on the other hand are produced by people who's livelihood depends on their success. All of the producers are relatively well known and operate off of reputation and experience.


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## AstroBee

gmcharlie said:


> My packages this year had a bit over 20% queen issues.


Out of how many? 20% from 100 would be more significant than 20% out of 5.


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## gmcharlie

70.... Last 2 years its was effectivly 0..... so I am not upset its farming.. Bluegrass, nice to see you not bashing package guys... but I would disagree with the claimed supeiority of nucs. In side by side test of 10 each, there was no diffence at the end of the season for mites or honey production.


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## johng

I got 10packages from Drew Apiaries in Hahira,Ga. They were installed Mid. March. They are all doing pretty good. Most have 2 or 3 supers on them already.


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## gmcharlie

your in FL.... quite bragging... its snowing here... 3 supers indeed!


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## bluegrass

gmcharlie said:


> Bluegrass, nice to see you not bashing package guys... but I would disagree with the claimed supeiority of nucs. In side by side test of 10 each, there was no diffence at the end of the season for mites or honey production.


That would require I bash my self as I am a package guy. I am currently sitting in Baxley GA with a truck and trailer waiting to pickup at Mike's place in the AM.


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## Michael Palmer

bluegrass said:


> The problem I see with Nucs is that only about 10% of what is produced are quality Nucs. .


Where did that number come from?


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## Michael Palmer

bluegrass said:


> it is way too easy to throw 5 frames in a box, add a mail order queen, and sell it for $130.00 to the droves of people who are willing to hand over the cash to get a nuc.


Just as easy to dump 3 pounds of bees in a box, add a mail order queen, and sell it for $100 to the droves of folks willing to hand over cash for what?


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## gmcharlie

Tell mike good morning!... head over at 6:30 and go out with the crews! I will be there next week for my 2nd run....


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## bluegrass

Michael Palmer said:


> Where did that number come from?


Personal experience with buying a nuc here and there for the last decade from various producers. I tried to buy some from you around 07-08, but you turned me down  

I have gotten some good ones, but predominantly I find that there are a lot of low quality nucs out there.


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## bluegrass

Michael Palmer said:


> Just as easy to dump 3 pounds of bees in a box, add a mail order queen, and sell it for $100 to the droves of folks willing to hand over cash for what?


Yup and save them $40.00 (I only charge 90.00 for a package) 

Except that the queen isn't a mail order queen.... and the bees are Inspected and certified healthy by the State Dept of Ag before they are sold and come with a cert of health...


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## bluegrass

gmcharlie said:


> Tell mike good morning!... head over at 6:30 and go out with the crews! I will be there next week for my 2nd run....


Will do. After the shutdown I hope I get the best load of bees to come out of GA this year.


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## David LaFerney

Anyone's personal experience is just so much anecdotal evidence, but for what it is worth our local club bought 135 packages from wilbanks in ga. Scheduled delivery was April 1 but because of Weather was pushed back to April 13. We also got 5 extra queens as insurance - which I banked for a week until everyone had time to make an inspection. 1 out of 135 had a queen problem that I heard about. "3" pound packages were probably closer to 4 pounds of bees, queens were quickly accepted, and so far good layers. So it's not all bad out of Georgia.

Something to consider is that you are probably a lot less likely to get a brood disease along with a package. It is fairly likely that nucs - even from a good supplier - will come on well used comb. If you wanted to compare nucs to packages then install 1 1/2 package per hive - similar price to a 5 frame nuc. I haven't tried it but an $85 package compare to a $125 nuc is sure not apples and apples.


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## Michael Palmer

bluegrass said:


> Package bees on the other hand are produced by people who's livelihood depends on their success. All of the producers are relatively well known and operate off of reputation and experience.


I see, package bee producers are well known and operate off of reputation and experience. Nucleus colony producers, 90% you say, are inexperienced beginners selling garbage with mail order queens. Those packages that do fail, do so because of mistakes by the installer.

Well, the facts don't support your theory. From the surveys done over the last few years, I would say package bees have a big problem and I would bet that a higher % of packages fail than nucleus colonies fail.

Barnstable County Beekeepers report 60% failure of package.
Beekeepers Association of Northern Virginia report 82% failure of packager to live one year.
Maine State Beekeepers reported similar results although the numbers aren't in front of me.

Sorry Bluegrass, I can't go along with what you say. Ask the folks at Betterbee, and their customers, how the nucs look...then ask the beekeepers up here in the north how their packaged look. See, I travel the country and listen to folks and their stories. Not a guess, not a stab in the dark to come up with some number. The truth coming from honest folks who plunked down their money and got sick bees and crappy queens.

A reputable dealer would replace packages with drone layers, but I'm being told that doesn't happen. Just sending them another queen doesn't help. Their package is too far gone by the time the beekeeper figures out the problem.


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## bluegrass

Wilbanks produces good packages, but he has become notorious for delays even in the best of weather. 

The package guys in GA are for the most part a good group of guys. (there is one wife you have to watch out for ) I have had very few problems from any of them and most will go out of their way to keep their customers happy. I predominantly buy from 2 suppliers, but I spread the wealth around to some of the smaller guys also. I don't buy from Wilbanks any longer because I think he has more business than he can really support at this point and there are other guys who are able to fill my needs in a more timely manner.


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## bluegrass

Mike

I am sure what you produce is likely quality nucs. I don't know for sure because I was unable to get any to try. The fact that your demand is so great is indicative of your product. 

On the other hand I recall a thread on here about a month ago about some queens a member claimed they purchased from you last fall and *all* failed to take the nucs through the winter. The person was quick to take the blame for the failures themselves though so I guess you will not be sending them replacements?

Each have their place... Some people do not want to spend the nearly $200.00 that Betterbee charges for one of (your) nucs. I hear from people all the time who say "if they are going to die anyway, I might as well buy the cheaper version" indicating that the nucs they bought the year before didn't winter well either. And even if you throw in all nuc producers together they fall far short of filling the void that the 750,000 packages produced in the USA every year fill.

The fact of the matter is that the majority of the packages I sell per year are sold to new beekeepers who are in their first or second year. It is true that they often end up replacing those packages the next year. It is also true that I can put together step by step instructions on taking care of a package of bees in order to be successful with them and people still completely disregard the directions and go queen hunting on a daily basis, direct release queens because somebody told them it was okay to do it that way. etc etc etc.


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## Michael Palmer

I was talking about drone layers Bluegrass. Anyone who buys my queens knows that if one is a drone layer she will be replaced. Doesn't happen often but does happen. Now the fact that someone's nucs don't make the winter doesn't mean it's the queen's fault. Funny that person...I don't recall the thread...never called me.


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## bluegrass

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?277473-1-laying-queen-60-bees

They rarely call me either. Most often I hear about package failures the following year when they order replacements. Drone layers usually are a pretty insignificant issue with packages in most years. Often I don't hear about it at all... I have developed a 5th sense for knowing when somebody lost their bees but for what ever reason play it up about how great the bees were and they want more... 

I was supposed to pickup 500 packages last Monday and received a call from Gardner that he wanted to give the queens an extra week because the weather has been poor in GA. I really can't ask for much more than that. If conditions are bad they do what they can to work around that just like you and I do.

Just out of curiosity: when was the last time you used a package to fill one of your hives? I don't have any available this season, but let me put you down for some for next season and give them a shot so you can make a more objective opinion on their quality. I will barter them to you for a nuc.


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## clyderoad

bluegrass have I detected a trend here? BetterBee, Wilbanks, Palmer.


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## bluegrass

clyderoad said:


> bluegrass have I detected a trend here? BetterBee, Wilbanks, Palmer.


meaning what?


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## winevines

Michael Palmer said:


> Well, the facts don't support your theory. From the surveys done over the last few years, I would say package bees have a big problem and I would bet that a higher % of packages fail than nucleus colonies fail.
> Barnstable County Beekeepers report 60% failure of package.
> Beekeepers Association of Northern Virginia report 82% failure of packager to live one year.
> Maine State Beekeepers reported similar results although the numbers aren't in front of me.


And you can add our survey to this list- 
Prince William County Beekeepers- A total of 68% of package started hives survived the first winter whereas 83% of nuc started hives survived this first season. These results were further emphasized in the second year. Hives that survived the first year and then again through the 2010 season into 2011, consisted only of 40% of packaged started hives, whereas 70 % of nuc started hives survived into the second year. 
And our recent experience of (now verified) almost 50% total failure (queen DOA, queen dead after install or laying workers) within 1 month of package install. 

Every time this issue is brought up those of us critical of the quality of packaged bees seem to be accused of personally bashing the packaged producers. We are not bashing the individuals involved in the business but just what appears to be the result of the industry trying to meet increasing demand and quality suffering. As MP points out- there are some actual surveys now to support this- from a variety of sources with folks tracking actual data and across multiple sources (i.e., not anecdotal evidence and stories) and from a variety of East Coast geographic regions that show nuc started colonies outperform packaged bees- even nucs made with "store bought" queens from commercial queen producers in terms of winter survival. Some of the above mentioned surveys even tracked data for 2-3 years with similar results.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

I have gone thru nearly 100 packages and you could not pay me to use packages again. Some years the supersedure rate would be 75%. 

In every business there are crooked suppliers. The value of meeting the guy you are buying from and the bees being local are a tremendous plus.

Nucs have served me well and every beekeeper I have helped who has made the switch have all been blown away how much more success prone the bees were. 

Every one has an opinion but I'd rather take 10 good nucs than 40 packages any day.


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## bluegrass

I guess we should all stop selling packages and everybody can vie for the limited number of nucs available and we can see what demand does to nuc prices? Will the US bee industry survive when a nuc costs $450.00, $600,00 $1000,00? 

I have surveyed survival myself and it is impossible to get consistent data without doing it under controlled conditions. Surveys get filled out inconsistently due to peoples interpretation of the questions and definitions. Even when I attempted to do controls myself the picture gets muddled by general management and other factors. Bear attacks, swarming, supercedure. Robbing, mite loads, treatments, no treatments.... Too many other factors come into play to really track any good data... 

Then something occurred to me... Of all the samples from dead hives I have sent into the bee lab over several years... not once was the cause of death "started from package". There are always some identifiable cause of death and often those causes are the same in both package started and nuc started deadouts.


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## squarepeg

i've never tried a package, only nucs.

it only makes sense that you could have more confidence with success with a colony that is already queenright, has comb, and is expanding.

meeting the guy and getting to look at the brood pattern were big plusses for me.

but i understand the availability factor.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

I've noticed package prices going up in price also. I only pay $90 bucks for my nucs. 

No offense but there is no way you can raise as high of a quality queen in a package as in a nuc. The environment is much more natural and stable.


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## bluegrass

Thanks squarepeg for your honest statement.

The divide on this topic is completely biased around here due to the fact that many who unbudgenly back one product or the other either #1. earn income selling one or the other like MP and I. #2. Have experience with only one or the other. 

Kamon: A queen cannot be raised in a package at all. The method for raising package queens is the same as the methods nuc producers use. The queens that come in my packages are all pulled from their matting nucs the day before I deliver them and placed in their cages in the packages. Also many many nucs are made up with queens bought through package producers. That is especially true in the north where we can't produce a queen early enough to make a nuc... So if the nuc isn't over wintered like MP does it is likely headed up by an introduced queen bought from a breeder somewhere warmer. 

In the northeast there is also a lot of southern nucs being brought in from down south to supplement "local" nuc availability. Many guys are honest about the fact that the nucs they sell come from down south, but I know of several who are not. 

Of course none of this matters in your situation because of your location. 

And for $90.00 I would buy nucs also. $90.00 isn't a realistic price in my area... $130.00 is the low end and up to around $175.00.


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## Michael Palmer

bluegrass said:


> Just out of curiosity: when was the last time you used a package to fill one of your hives? I don't have any available this season, but let me put you down for some for next season and give them a shot so you can make a more objective opinion on their quality. I will barter them to you for a nuc.


Probably 25 years ago. 75 packages from York Bee Co...came 90% dead.


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## Adrian Quiney WI

An interesting question, and not too far off the topic, is what percentage of beekeepers don't have to buy nucs or packages each year to maintain their colony numbers?


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## bluegrass

Michael Palmer said:


> Probably 25 years ago. 75 packages from York Bee Co...came 90% dead.


What to try some live ones next year?



Adrian Quiney WI said:


> An interesting question, and not too far off the topic, is what percentage of beekeepers don't have to buy nucs or packages each year to maintain their colony numbers?


That is an interesting question. I am able to sustain my hives without packages. I install some packages every year as a quality control so I have an idea on what my customers are experiencing, but I am able to replenish my deadouts with splits off of other hives.... Usually. I did loose everything in 2004 though.


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## winevines

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> An interesting question, and not too far off the topic, is what percentage of beekeepers don't have to buy nucs or packages each year to maintain their colony numbers?


I love this one. Since I learned to make my own bees- I have bought only 3 packages since 2009. I have increased my numbers from 6 colonies then to over 30 not including the 10 a year going out the door as nucs to others. 

But Bluegrass raises a fair question- how will the beekeeping industry survive without many thousands of packages? I can not speak for the commercial side- but Backyard Beekeepers and small scale hobbyists? ONE nuc at a time is how you can change the equation. You said it yourself- it only takes a few frames and a queen to make. Look at that positively- every bee club member with 2 hives can make a nuc each Spring- grow it for a month or less so you know the queen is laying right and it builds up, etc. and it can be a quality one ready for another aspiring or existing beekeeper. Buy commercial queens for a while if you have to. Make Spring nucs at first if that is easier, and then overwintered nucs which can easily be split into 2 in the following Spring. 
But most importantly, learn to make your own bees and teach others to do the same. You can teach your entire club to do this and you will be amazed how quickly there are nucs available to fill the need and how many folks want to join in and contribute to making bees from their own bees. There is no reason that on this backyard small hobbyist level you can not produce nucs for beekeepers to supply half of the need now being supplied by packages within your own clubs. And you know- If you build it, they will come.


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## winevines

bluegrass said:


> The divide on this topic is completely biased around here due to the fact that many who unbudgenly back one product or the other either #1. earn income selling one or the other like MP and I. #2. Have experience with only one or the other.


I don't think so. Three out of the four surveys mentioned, compare nucs and packages. But you seem to want to discount the surveys too.


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## gmcharlie

winevines said:


> I love this one. Since I learned to make my own bees- I have bought only 3 packages since 2009. I have increased my numbers from 6 colonies then to over 30 not including the 10 a year going out the door as nucs to others.
> 
> But Bluegrass raises a fair question- how will the beekeeping industry survive without many thousands of packages? I can not speak for the commercial side- but Backyard Beekeepers and small scale hobbyists? ONE nuc at a time is how you can change the equation. You said it yourself- it only takes a few frames and a queen to make. Look at that positively- every bee club member with 2 hives can make a nuc each Spring- grow it for a month or less so you know the queen is laying right and it builds up, etc. and it can be a quality one ready for another aspiring or existing beekeeper. Buy commercial queens for a while if you have to. Make Spring nucs at first if that is easier, and then overwintered nucs which can easily be split into 2 in the following Spring.
> But most importantly, learn to make your own bees and teach others to do the same. You can teach your entire club to do this and you will be amazed how quickly there are nucs available to fill the need and how many folks want to join in and contribute to making bees from their own bees. There is no reason that on this backyard small hobbyist level you can not produce nucs for beekeepers to supply half of the need now being supplied by packages within your own clubs. And you know- If you build it, they will come.


Your a bit off on your math..... by a factor of about 10. Packages outsell nucs at least 10 to one, why? the reason is simple. NO ONE is produceing anywhere near enough to supply the demand. Despite all the talk, the reality is they are not there... Demand pure and simple... don't you think most guys would love to sell 300 nucs a year? So far I have sold every nuc I can produce, and on top of that close to 500 packages...... People want bees in the spring. Local nucs can't make queens anywhere near soon enough to do well the first year. thats why the majority of nucs have southern queens. Yes some guys do sell wintered nucs. but very rare.
Here in Il, I still have not grafted a queen, our weather is to lousey to gamble the time. 
Your nuc math is very interesting, but not acurate, and not realistic. and nowhere near the current demand.


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## bluegrass

Experience counts for a lot. I personally have 90-100% success rate with packages the first year. By the second year I have them so split up that I don't consider any of the splits to be a package going into the second winter.

Now take somebody like Mike Palmer who makes up hundreds of split per year and uses them to replenish his dead outs. He can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he uses a similar system as Kirk Webster where nucs are inspected in early winter and if they are too weak to make it through they are "blown out". So if he were to fill out a survival survey his success rate would be slanting the numbers because he eliminates the failures before they even get a chance to try and winter. Where as somebody with less experience can't look at their hive and say it isn't going to make it through, so they attempt to winter it anyway and it adds to their deadout rate. 

So yes I discount the surveys... People's management styles very and that has an impact. I attempted to do my own survey last year and the data becomes extremely complicated when you try and incorporate all the variables. And I have extremely high success rates with the packages I install so personal experience tells me that many of the failures are operator error.


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## winevines

gmcharlie said:


> Yes some guys do sell wintered nucs. but very rare.
> Your nuc math is very interesting, but not acurate, and not realistic. and nowhere near the current demand.


Some girls make overwintered nucs too. Ask Rosie. : -)
My math is so off? Is that why our, and other clubs in our region have reduced our dependence on package bees by at least 50%. 
One nuc at a time.
Yes you can.


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## AstroBee

bluegrass said:


> People's management styles very and that has an impact.


I agree - a big impact!

Over the past 12 years, I probably installed about 100 packages of bees for my own use. I can say without hesitation that none of these bees were lost because they originated as "package" bees. Like bluegrass, I have had very good success with package bees over the years. Keep in mind that due to my relative closeness to GA, bees leave GA and are in my yard in less than 8 hrs. If I needed bees, I would not hesitate to buy more. That said, the potential of vectoring "issues" around the country is a big deal to me, and one that could potentially significantly alter local beekeeping. I very carefully monitor any package bee colony for aggressive tendencies. The last two times I installed package bees we purged all drones from the packages upon installation and kill drone brood on routine inspections until the temperament can be completely assessed. So far, aggressive colonies from packages are very rare, far less than some that I've gotten in swarms and cutouts. 

Yes, in an ideal world all clubs would be self-sustaining and not a single package would need to be imported. However, our current local reality is FAR from this ideal. We have five relatively large clubs in our area and we can't even scratch the surface of meeting the demand for locally produced nucs. New beekeepers are VERY frustrated that clubs are advocating not importing bees (basically banning package bees), but can't offer an alternate. Currently new beekeepers get added to a "nuc list" and sit on this list for possibly months. Then, if lucky, they receive a nucs in late July that they need to manage during our death and build-up for winter. My guess is that these are lost with as much or more frequency than packages received in March. For me it boils down to simple economics. I simply can't afford to sell spring nucs. The local market for honey is SO strong, that splitting to make nucs or overwintering nucs is not economically viable. The "big" beekeepers locally are making honey, and only the smaller beekeepers not into making honey are working on meeting the nuc demand. I try to do my part providing queens to our local nuc programs, but it is still and a work in progress.


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## Broke-T

I see another factor here that no one is mentioning. I suspect that most packages that fail go in a box with 10 frames of foundation and maybe a feeder. If those packages were given drawn comb or foundation with even one frame of capped brood it would make a tremendous difference in their surviveability.

Johnny


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## fatscher

Michael Palmer said:


> ...I would say package bees have a big problem and I would bet that a higher % of packages fail than nucleus colonies fail.
> 
> Barnstable County Beekeepers report 60% failure of package.
> Beekeepers Association of Northern Virginia report 82% failure of packager to live one year.
> Maine State Beekeepers reported similar results although the numbers aren't in front of me.


I'll add my two cents in here.

I've got a whopping 6 years of beekeeping experience <insert sarcasm icon here>, currently maintain around 35 colonies today, and have bought or gotten 6 packages ever in that entire 6 year period. Five of these six are now dead (I don't treat my bees). The sixth package is 2 months old in my backyard, I bought it as a demo this spring for new beeks in our local club (Scottsboro, AL). Three of the five packages-to-hives that are all dead now, died within the first six months of installation. I did everything the books say. I really do not think I was to blame for their demise, but anything's possible. The remaining two limped along for 1.5 years, were actually actually soft-chem treated and never produced any honey...ever.

I consider myself a disciple of Michael Palmer's methods. Thanks to winevines, Michael, and a SARE grant that winevines wrote in 2008, I was inspired to learn to make nucleus colonies and become sustainable. Today I'm trying to change a package-centered culture here in my southern state of Alabama. But Mike is quick to point out he "didn't invent the chicken or the chicken sandwich", much like "Chik-Fil-A" says, in all this nuc-making stuff. Mike credits Vernon Vickery, R.O.B. Manley, Kirk Webster, Brother Adam and a host of others of nuc-ing as a sustainable, plus much more effective, approach.

Oh and I made $700 this year selling nucs. Which makes the wife happy that I am not using the day-job paycheck to pay for my hobby. Crossing my fingers this lasts!


----------



## fatscher

AstroBee said:


> ...For me it boils down to simple economics. I simply can't afford to sell spring nucs. The local market for honey is SO strong, that splitting to make nucs or overwintering nucs is not economically viable.


Greetings Astro, and fellow Virginian. I left the Commonwealth in 2010 but consider myself an expatriot. In my tiny experience, I find I make more money selling bees than honey. And I like making more money. So I try to sell bees, more than I try to sell honey. But you probably have much larger yields in honey than I do, obviously higher demand. I harvested about 450 lbs last year, a banner year for me. I just sold out last month, but I only have 2-3 outlets for my honey so far. I'm only into this about 6 years, so that's to be considered.

My question is this, have you thought about making nucs to overwinter using your non-"honey productive" colonies? Non-productive doesn't mean "weak" ...rather... assuming you have strong colonies that don't make a drop of honey...I have a plethora of those.  They didn't make honey this year, why would you expect them to make honey next year (unless you requeen). Me? I look at all my non honey producers after the spring harvest (I get no fall flow/harvest, really), then break those down into summer nucs, overwinter them, then sell for a huge profit in the early spring. I sell my 5-frame nucs for $100 with frame exchange, $110 without.


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## fatscher

Broke-T said:


> ... I suspect that most packages that fail go in a box with 10 frames of foundation and maybe a feeder. If those packages were given drawn comb or foundation with even one frame of capped brood it would make a tremendous difference in their surviveability.


Johnny, it would seem common sense that packages installed on comb would do better, than the same package installed on foundation. All of the packages I ever got (huge number of 6--rolling eyes), I installed two on drawn comb (with a capped brood frame as a booster), and both died within 6 months. The two that limped along for 1.5 years were installed on foundation only. Bottom line it's hard to tell. I also am not your model example for statistical significance, obviously. The culprit of the package failures, strictly my opinion, is the inferior queen stock that is sold with them. Just my thought only, no scientific proof behind that.


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## gmcharlie

no offense intended carla, Send me your number, I probably have about 300 people I will have call you....

Get good at it and you will be very wealthy.... over 800k packages sold every year, surely your club can handle that!

So tell me, how many did you produce?? with normal die off at 30%you need to make roughly 1.3 times as many nucs as you have hives every year.....


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## AstroBee

fatscher said:


> My question is this, have you thought about making nucs to overwinter using your non-"honey productive" colonies? Non-productive doesn't mean "weak" ...rather... assuming you have strong colonies that don't make a drop of honey...I have a plethora of those.  They didn't make honey this year, why would you expect them to make honey next year (unless you requeen). Me? I look at all my non honey producers after the spring harvest (I get no fall flow/harvest, really), then break those down into summer nucs, overwinter them, then sell for a huge profit in the early spring. I sell my 5-frame nucs for $100 with frame exchange, $110 without.


Yes, I have consider the MP prescription. I'm at a size where I can sell all of the honey I can produce locally, most at retail prices. I overwinter nucs - not as successfully as MP does , but again, an overwintered nuc is perfectly positioned to make a huge spring crop, which is one of MP's stated advantages. It would be economic folly to sell this in March, April, or May in VA. We had a good spring last year, and several of my overwintered 5-frame nucs that had 3 med supers, and a couple had 5 supers. We sell everything we make for no less than $10/lb. Do the math, there is NO way you can compete selling nucs. If I ever need to sell honey at a much lower price, then making nucs may become economically viable.


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## winevines

gmcharlie said:


> no offense intended carla, Send me your number, I probably have about 300 people I will have call you....
> 
> Get good at it and you will be very wealthy.... over 800k packages sold every year, surely your club can handle that!
> 
> So tell me, how many did you produce?? with normal die off at 30%you need to make roughly 1.3 times as many nucs as you have hives every year.....


You seem to be missing my point(s). Best of luck to you.


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## fatscher

AstroBee said:


> I'm at a size where I can sell all of the honey I can produce locally, most at retail prices. ...We sell everything we make for no less than $10/lb. Do the math, there is NO way you can compete selling nucs.


I'm trying to follow ya. I hear ya, but trying to understand. In my attempt to understand I'll use me as an example: I sell my 1lb bottles for $7 each. In Alabama, it's hard to push the Keynesian economic supply demand intersect point above $7 per bottle. I'll concede that up and down the mid-Atlantic coast, $10 a lb is easy pickings. But I'll hypothesize with my $7 per lb bottle, nevertheless. I probably produced somewhere on the order of 250-300 containers of honey this season. Not all of those containers went for $7 each. Some were 12 oz hex jars that I sold for $5. Then there are the wholesales. I sold my lb bottles for $4 each in bulk to stores/suppliers, and hex jars at $3 a piece. Hypothetically, selling my honey I grossed around $1500. I know the math doesn't add. Still, I did not sell quickly. My costs are around $2 per container, labor, empty containers, labels marketing. My costs easily surpassed $500. Honey roughly netted me $800 if you figure in wholesales and different size containers.

In contrast, I overwintered 16 nucs this year. I could have sold all 16 on the first day of spring for as much as $120 each, but i sold for $110 and $100 with frame exchange. That's gross $1,760. I spent $200 on queens to go into those nucs plus $200 in sugar to feed. $1760-$400 = $1360.

Nuc sales yielded $1360
Honey sales yielded ~$800ish?

I found I could liquidate the nuc product in a single day if I had to ($1360 quickly), but it took me 8 months to earn $800 in honey.




AstroBee said:


> Do the math, there is NO way you can compete selling nucs.


I just did.


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## AstroBee

Let's keep it simple and consider a per colony yield. In my area, a strong overwintered nuc can (conservatively) make 2 mediums in the spring. Our summer flow (cotton and soybean) is typically more, but for simplicity, let's say 2 more in the summer.

4 med supers of honey = 160 lbs (yes the stated VA averages are totally wrong)
As I mentioned, I sell it for no less than $10/lb -> 160*(10-1) = $1440 (we have a bottle/label cost of $1 per jar). This neglects my labor costs, and other expenses, but if you're making bees or honey, the expenses are in the same ballpark. 

For this overwintered nuc, assuming $125 per 5-frame nuc, I'd have to sell 11 nucs from this same colony to get this return. In our area, I could probably split 3 or 4 times if I aggressively fed.


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## gmcharlie

Not the math he was refering to I belive..... you can't make enough nucs.... sure you can make money at them.... Thats not an issue. you made 16 nucs, if I split everything I had I could only make 200,
That would take me back to almost nothing, and only make me 20k, I grossed a bit over 50 on honey last year....

Keep in mind NO one I know of is saying don't make nucs! knock yourself out... Just quit badmouthing packages. pound for pound a package outproduces nucs, and cost about 1/2 and are avalible at least a month earlier than a nuc. so I can start packages and have a full DEEP before the nucs are ready. Just finished putting 2nd deeps on 40 packages I started March 28th. the nucs started the same day are just now ready, and only 1/2 at that........

Make money on nucs... its all GREAT,,, just don't make stuff up about pacakges to promote what your products! that all!


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## Nature Coast beek

Interesting "discussion".

Just out of curiosity, what does a 2013 Michael Palmer overwintered nuc sell for?


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## gmcharlie

Carla, If i offended my aplogies. Let me explain a bit, I do understand your point, fully, and totally disagree. We see/ hear it every year. some member at a local club comes out and tells a lot of people packages are bad, nucs are the future!... Maybe someday they will be... but we are a long ways off. let me explain why.
First Nucs are a bit pricey, a lot of newbies balk at the cost. second supply is terrible. we have Dozens of people who want to get started every year who don't because they have been told nucs only. and dont like the price. Many of the package guys have tried nucs, only to find out customers won't pay the additional cost and transportation hassles. THE biggest package guy in the country built up 800 nucs this year to sell, He still has some left (well not after I called) trouble selling 800, and he moves close to 40,000 packages. thats around 2% take rate at 90.00 each.

Second timing. DARN few people are selling overwintered nucs. most are makeing spring splits and selling them with a new queen, which means there late for the spring flow in a given region. a 5 frame nuc here is just now getting ready, and will be in no shape to gather surplus in a June flow. (my area only as reference) Packages in the south are ready to start a month before a nuc. and in any given year started together you can tell no differences, to the package being a little faster.

3rd simple math, everyone in the country would have to make at least 1.3 nucs per hive just to keep up. darn few have the skills to do that they are not available. you yourself I think said you "have cut your dependency 50%" which means even in your little group your not there yet. Most beeks have trouble maintaining there own hives let alone building enough to sell off.

Now that all said, there are a cpl perks to nucs. you know your queen is laying and presumable well. Albeit there are some scamers out there, I will ignore them as they are frauds. For a new person to not install a package this is a huge deal. 
Your also dealing with a local beekeeper who should be showing you some things also. great deal. and in theory your money stays local....Fantastic

Acceptance rate on Nucs should be 100%

In some case Probably less than 20% your getting a local survivor queen. truth is most are built from production queens ordered in.
I am not against nucs at all.... there fine... What riles me is that some locals with half a dozen hives want to badmouth packages to sell there own nucs, and leave a lot of people not knowing any different.

Packages have acceptance rate issues, always have and always will. A package is a swarm.. if you look at swarm acceptance and package acceptance you will see the same numbers.
The MAJORITY of failed packages are from the beekeepers themselves.. how do I know this you ask?? I spent 4 months last year working with several of the largest guys in both coast. and I myself have sold and installed well over 5000 packages in just the last 10 years. about 95% have no problems. most years I am close to 100%, this year was 75% or so because of queens. (compared to less than 60% success on nucs) all weather related in my opinion. This wet cold spring is an issue.
Every large honey producer out there buys packages to replace lost hive, not nucs..... not cost effective.

Now I hope you and your clubs sell a ton of them and mentor a lot of people.. just don't distort things, and belittle those who go a different route. Packages have been the bread and butter of beekeeping since the 1920's Don't preach how its all wrong.

If you want the best and earliest buy a package and requeen it with a queen from your local stock! those workers will all die off soon enough and you should then have the perfect hive...... I do it to 100 or so every year.... and for the record, about 1/2 those great survivor queens don't do any better.

The point of this site, I hope is to help get the truth out. so when one side gets badmouthed without having all the facts, one should get defensive. I sincerely hope that if you find me posting things you disagree with, call me on it... point out where you or anyone has a different result......


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## Michael Palmer

winevines said:


> But most importantly, learn to make your own bees and teach others to do the same. You can teach your entire club to do this and you will be amazed how quickly there are nucs available to fill the need and how many folks want to join in and contribute to making bees from their own bees. There is no reason that on this backyard small hobbyist level you can not produce nucs for beekeepers to supply half of the need now being supplied by packages within your own clubs. And you know- If you build it, they will come.


Exactly Karla. And as you know that is my focus.

Of course there aren't enough nucleus colonies to handle all the bee purchases being made out there. I sell a couple hundred a year...spit in the wind. Those that know me know what is important to me. It's not about me selling you all expensive nucleus colonies. It's about me teaching you to raise your own and establish your own sustainable apiary. Those that have taken up the challenge know what I'm talking about. Wasn't it Adrian Quinney who said that after learning how to winter summer made nucs, he has more bees than he knows what to do with. Same with everyone else, too. 

Now why isn't the management program being practiced more widely? Where is the resistance coming from? I blame those senior club members in charge of beekeeper education who are selling package bees to their students. Think about it...

If you sell a thousand packages to the beekeepers in your area...what do they cost the re-seller? Maybe $60? How much do they sell for? Maybe $90? How much does handling cost the re-seller? Less than $10? So the re-seller is making at least $20 per package. 

Selling 1000 packages nets the re-seller at least $20,000. Why would anyone bother with all the hard sweaty work and all the possible losses and all the headaches...of keeping bees and making honey? 

Say what you will, that's how I see it.


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## Michael Palmer

bluegrass said:


> On the other hand I recall a thread on here about a month ago about some queens a member claimed they purchased from you last fall and *all* failed to take the nucs through the winter. The person was quick to take the blame for the failures themselves though so I guess you will not be sending them replacements?


Well I read the thread you site. Hmmm...you say all the queens failed. Not what I read....

"I did some late splits. October and November I fed them all winter so far. lost some but less than 10 percent."

Now first...I can't remember ever selling queens in October and November. My last catches are in early to mid-August. 
And second...making splits in October and November is a bit much even with fresh queens. If he used my queens, they were banked by him.

Bluegrass, you seem to be trying awfully hard to discredit me and my work. Grasping at straws, eh?


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## Michael Palmer

bluegrass said:


> I have gotten some good ones, but predominantly I find that there are a lot of low quality nucs out there.


But not any low quality packages, eh?


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## Michael Palmer

bluegrass said:


> I guess we should all stop selling packages and everybody can vie for the limited number of nucs available and we can see what demand does to nuc prices? Will the US bee industry survive when a nuc costs $450.00, $600,00 $1000,00?


Nope, sell all the packages you want. They have their place. But I'll be teaching folks how to raise their own bees and keep their hives full, without buying anything except queens...and those from local queen producers...support your local queen producers.


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## Michael Palmer

bluegrass said:


> Now take somebody like Mike Palmer who makes up hundreds of split per year and uses them to replenish his dead outs. He can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he uses a similar system as Kirk Webster where nucs are inspected in early winter and if they are too weak to make it through they are "blown out". So if he were to fill out a survival survey his success rate would be slanting the numbers because he eliminates the failures before they even get a chance to try and winter. Where as somebody with less experience can't look at their hive and say it isn't going to make it through, so they attempt to winter it anyway and it adds to their deadout rate.


Well then, I guess I'll have to correct you because you're wrong. I've never blown out a nuc in the early winter or at any other time. I manage my nucs so they will have a good queen and a good cluster. If I don't like the queen I change her. If I don't like the progress of the cluster, I add more brood. All in all, I lose less then 10% of my nucs between setup and spring.

Nope, I've moved away from much of what Kirk does, as it doesn't fit my management. I got rid of the bags, I'm getting rid of the division board feeders, and I expand my nucs up onto 4 additional combs...not horizontally like Kirk does. We both winter nucleus colonies as the support of our operations, but it ends there.

Of course there's the nuc yard that crashed in 2011-2012 winter....50% loss. Totally attributed to, by microscopic inspection, nosema picked up from the neighboring beekeeper with Georgia packages that were so sick they crashed in late summer, were robbed out by my bees, and there you have it.


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## Michael Palmer

AstroBee said:


> Yes, in an ideal world all clubs would be self-sustaining and not a single package would need to be imported. However, our current local reality is FAR from this ideal. We have five relatively large clubs in our area and we can't even scratch the surface of meeting the demand for locally produced nucs.


No doubt. But don't you understand that if your five relatively large clubs would put on a program to teach the people to raise their own nucleus colonies, we wouldn't be having this conversation. 

"Each one teach one."


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## Michael Palmer

AstroBee said:


> Yes, I have consider the MP prescription. I'm at a size where I can sell all of the honey I can produce locally, most at retail prices. I overwinter nucs - not as successfully as MP does , but again, an overwintered nuc is perfectly positioned to make a huge spring crop, which is one of MP's stated advantages. It would be economic folly to sell this in March, April, or May in VA. We had a good spring last year, and several of my overwintered 5-frame nucs that had 3 med supers, and a couple had 5 supers. We sell everything we make for no less than $10/lb. Do the math, there is NO way you can compete selling nucs. If I ever need to sell honey at a much lower price, then making nucs may become economically viable.


Yes, true. But have you ever considered holding on to some of your wintered nucleus colonies, and using them as brood factories to produce more nucleus colonies? Allow your production colonies to produce and use your brood factories to produce the nucs.


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## Michael Palmer

gmcharlie said:


> no offense intended carla, Send me your number, I probably have about 300 people I will have call you....
> 
> Get good at it and you will be very wealthy.... over 800k packages sold every year, surely your club can handle that!
> 
> So tell me, how many did you produce?? with normal die off at 30%you need to make roughly 1.3 times as many nucs as you have hives every year.....


Don't be snide please. Teach those 300 beekeepers to raise their own bees and they will be calling you with messages of thanks. But they won't be handing you checks for packages anymore.


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## Michael Palmer

AstroBee said:


> For this overwintered nuc, assuming $125 per 5-frame nuc, I'd have to sell 11 nucs from this same colony to get this return. In our area, I could probably split 3 or 4 times if I aggressively fed.


You're not listening Astro. You save some of your wintered nucs to make more nucs...5-10 to 1 depending on the year.


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## Michael Palmer

gmcharlie said:


> Not the math he was refering to I belive..... you can't make enough nucs.... sure you can make money at them.... Thats not an issue. you made 16 nucs, if I split everything I had I could only make 200,
> That would take me back to almost nothing, and only make me 20k, I grossed a bit over 50 on honey last year....


But if he saved those nucs to make nucs he could make probably 150 nucs. Then he could sell 134 nucs and keep 16 to make more the following year. Then you could have your cake and eat it too...


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## Michael Palmer

gmcharlie said:


> Just quit badmouthing packages. pound for pound a package outproduces nucs, and cost about 1/2 and are avalible at least a month earlier than a nuc. so I can start packages and have a full DEEP before the nucs are ready. Just finished putting 2nd deeps on 40 packages I started March 28th. the nucs started the same day are just now ready, and only 1/2 at that........


You're comparing packages to spring splits. I'm comparing packages to wintered nucs. My nucs need their second deep and have 7 frames of brood three weeks after our first 60 degree day and the first pollen of the year.

And here packages cost $100 and nucs $130. That's half??


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## Michael Palmer

gmcharlie said:


> If you want the best and earliest buy a package and requeen it with a queen from your local stock! those workers will all die off soon enough and you should then have the perfect hive......


I don't see it that way, and as you say the point is to get the truth out. Start nucs on your main flow, whenever that is, use those local queens that are available at the height of the season when the conditions are best, and winter them. Then you'll have the best and the earliest.


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## Michael Palmer

Now I'm done. Say what you will. Buy all the packages you want, I really don't care. But for those who are tired of replacing their dead bees every year with packages, listen up. You can raise better bees than you can buy....I don't care in what form you buy them.


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## jim lyon

Aww come on Mike you were on a roll. If it were a fight they would of stopped it about 3 posts ago.


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## Mountain Bee

Hey Mike sign me up, I have rode that package buying treadmill for way to long and the only one to come out ahead is the man selling the packages every year. I am into only my 2nd year of wintering nucs, and producing queens of my own stock, I don't have a stack of stats to share with you but I can say that my package dealer has not seen me for 2 years now and if things continue in the direction they are heading in now he has seen the last of my money. That money is now used to buy more boxes and frames for all the bees I now have.


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## fatscher

Michael Palmer said:


> Say what you will. ...for those who are tired of replacing their dead bees every year with packages, listen up. You can raise better bees than you can buy.


As true as north is north. The truth will set those guys free, ...maybe... ...maybe not.

Reminds me of the 1972 film, Poseidon Adventure, when Gene Hackman leads his group of survivors "up" toward the capsized hull of the ship, and passes the other group of survivors convinced that salvation lies in heading "down," Gene begs for them to save themselves but they ignore him, and keep heading down, convinced their package bees are the way to go, ...er I mean convinced that Reverend Frank Scott and his survivors are doomed.


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## oldiron56

My first bees were a package, given to me as a gift. The next year they swarmed, I caught them,had 2 hives then. I took 6 nuc boxes put a frame of brood and a frame of food in each from the other two. All made Queens and all mated,then I had 8. I was putting them in full sized med boxes,end of season I pinched the weak Queens and combined to winter
. Then I found this site and saw that nucs can be overwintered. So I tried 3 to see if it was possible. 1 in a stand alone 2 box stacked med,and the other two in a 10 frame divided med, it worked. This last year I OW ed 11. March 28 one swarmed I checked the rest and had an average of 7 frames of solid brood in all of em.My mistake was selling them, I sold 4 frames of brood 1 of food. The rest of the brood left over made Q cells and all have Queens now, should see eggs 5/14. I wanted to put grafts in them instead of E Queens. Next yr I`ll keep half for factory. Thanx Mike.( I had the folding frame at EAS that you saw ) Never bought a bee and never will, but the one package did me well! N3SKI


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## Broke-T

Since I live in MS and raise queens it bothers me a little to hear people bash southern bees. The problem is not exactly the bees. The problem is the genetics of the bees. Southern package producers need bees that will brood up heavy and early when fed, usually thats Italian, maybe even Cordovan Italian. These bees are perfect for shaking packages from, but not for northern climate beekeeping. Most if not all the queens that accompany those packages are from the same stock.

I produce VSH Carni queens from stock Adam Finkelstein selects in Maryland. Although the are produced in MS, they were selected for northern requirements. The package producers can do the same. If everyone told them I want Carni queens in my packages they could easily import breeders from the north to supply the correct queens for the north.

If the demand is there someone will supply it.

Just my take on the package problem.

Johnny


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## Bill Davis

My advice for package customers is to get the packages if you need them but if you are in a northern climate replace the queen with a northern bred queen from a good reputable supplier. There is nothing wrong with southern queens for southern climates and during the summer up here most packages do very well and make great colonies until the winter time. Every beekeeper has a 10% percent rule,or something similar that no matter what you do making splits, raising queens, making nucs that 10% will fail. Southern queen breeders have the same problems we do so we can't expect everything they do will be perfect. Some queens are duds, it is a fact of life.
I have told this to everyone I sold packages to this year as I want people to have realistic expectations and no suprises if they have losses.
And this will be my first year attempting to overwinter nucs like Michael Palmer and I can't wait to see the results. Maybe he will answer some of my private message questions..lol


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## Broke-T

Bill Davis said:


> My advice for package customers is to get the packages if you need them but if you are in a northern climate replace the queen with a northern bred queen from a good reputable supplier.


But why buy a queen you don't want. That will be an extra $20 to $30 expense. Why shouldn't the package producer put that nortern bred queen in the package to start with.

Johnny


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## fatscher

Broke-T said:


> Since I live in MS and raise queens it bothers me a little to hear people bash southern bees. The problem is not exactly the bees. The problem is the genetics of the bees.
> 
> Southern package producers need bees that will brood up heavy and early when fed, usually thats Italian, maybe even Cordovan Italian. These bees are perfect for shaking packages from, but not for northern climate beekeeping. Most if not all the queens that accompany those packages are from the same stock.


Johnny, I agree. I'm your next door neighbor in Alabama. Since moving to Alabama from Virginia, I've discovered Fred Rossman's queens have truly performed the best for me out of any stock in my beeyards here. But pls understand that the real valid message is not against Southern queens as much as it is PRO local queens. I believe my northern queen stock (non-local) has not performed as effectively as my southern stock, because, for me, southern is "local."

Also, I believe a lot of bad queens sold from package producers in Georgia have a genetic connection to stressed stock exposed to pesticides/fungicides while on pollination contracts in California, for example. I believe this is the main reason we're seeing so many package failures. Not every package fails, of course, but the grassroots data and experience is showing a trend that packages are collapsing in endemic proportions. This is not to demonize packages and producers, but rather a call to examine the root causes why they are failing and resolve the problem.


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## Broke-T

But it is so easy to change your genetics. All it takes is order the breeders you need and in 2 weeks your grafting from her and changed your genetics by 50%. To change out your drones for the other 50% takes a cpl years.

Johnny


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## Bill Davis

Broke-T said:


> But why buy a queen you don't want. That will be an extra $20 to $30 expense. Why shouldn't the package producer put that nortern bred queen in the package to start with.
> 
> Johnny


It is a nice thought but Where would a package producer in Georgia get thousands of northern queens in February through May when they were making packages. Most package orders are 1-3 packages per person in my experience. Telling a hobbyist to spend 20 dollars more per package to requeen is not that big of a deal. Most people buying packages are new beekeepers probably in the 1-3 yrs experience range they need to be told the facts. I don't want to keep selling packages to the same person over and over, worrying about someone spending 20-30 bucks may save them another hundred next year if the bees dont survive.I would like to sell them queens the following year when they are splitting bees in the spring and build customers that way. Without proper knowledge new beekeepers will quit if all they do is lose bees every winter.


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## AstroBee

Michael Palmer said:


> You're not listening Astro. You save some of your wintered nucs to make more nucs...5-10 to 1 depending on the year.



Oh, I'm listening to every word you post. I highly respect what you do and how you do it. I'd be very grateful if you can look at my post number 55 and explain my error.

Thanks.


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## Broke-T

Bill Davis said:


> It is a nice thought but Where would a package producer in Georgia get thousands of northern queens in February through May when they were making packages. .


They would raise them just like they do now. But use northern selected breeders instead of their current breeders.

Johnny


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## Michael Bush

>They would raise them just like they do now. But use northern selected breeders instead of their current breeders.

In other words, raise them from Northern stock but raise them in the South. It would probably be a step in the right direction, but they would still breed with the local drones...


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## Bill Davis

Broke-T said:


> They would raise them just like they do now. But use northern selected breeders instead of their current breeders.
> 
> Johnny


Then they would no longer have to be able to survive a harsher longer winter and they become a more southern stock. Would not take long before the only thing northern would be the name.


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## Riskybizz

His open mated northern stock queens would breed with any available drone including many of his own genetic makeup that he has established over the course of several years. Granted they will also mate with any other available drones in the congregation areas. It would seem to me that his breeding philosophy has significant merit.


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## gmcharlie

Michael Palmer said:


> You're comparing packages to spring splits. I'm comparing packages to wintered nucs. My nucs need their second deep and have 7 frames of brood three weeks after our first 60 degree day and the first pollen of the year.
> 
> And here packages cost $100 and nucs $130. That's half??


Your right, I got a little snide with Carla,, and my apolgies followed.. sometimes i type to fast, you also seem to be excited by the post on the other side give the number of your replies! its all a great discussion....
I would agree with you on overwintered nucs. but we both know those are as rare as hens teeth... Your one of darn few Michael, and i hope to be able to winter nucs like you, last year I didn't succeed.

My comment about 1/2 was the nucs that are ready, not cost. several of the nucs are just not ready to ship slow buildups.... way behind packages that started in March.....

AS for monies... you mention the 25.00 we make on packages. we drive to GA and answer hours of phone calls and questions for that 25.00... I can make more money on a nuc in a heartbeat. just can't even come close to meeting demand. I make 60 on a nuc...... but I can't have nucs ready to sell in IL, in time to make the honey flow in most years.


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## gmcharlie

the 2 largest guys do just that. Mike Garnder keeps 300 hives to Michigan and pick his queen hives from them.


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## Michael Palmer

I assume he would keep stock in the north, or ask customers to buy back queens that performed well, and use them for breeders in the southern queen rearing operation.


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## jbeshearse

I know next to nothing about producing commercial quantities of either nucs or packages. That said it seems to me that success or failure is going to be very dependent on the supplier and his practices. It seems that suppliers will have a different set of priority traits in the bees they supply than the beekeeper has, mostly centering around early build up. I would imagine that they breed for: early build up, gentleness, overwintering success, hardiness against pathogens, honey production: in that order. I think most beekeepers order would be more in line of: hardiness against pathogens, honey production, gentleness, overwintering success, early build up. Keep in mind that these are for producers looking at honey production, pollinators would want early build up as the primary.

With the above in mind, it would seem that the package industry is better suited to pollination bees and the honey producers more suited to nucs.

But a better solution is that the package producers can produce an early build up bee crop, then queen them with a honey producer queen with the appropriate traits. This means that the bees in the package would not represent the eventual queen’s progeny. Packages can be queened with the desired traits when they are assembled, while nucs are not quite as easy. It would seem that nucs would depend on overwintering more than packages. Both would benefit from early build up as they are selling bees not honey. As such the package and nuc will almost always have a different set of trait priorities that they are targeting, than what the beekeepers want. To overcome the difference they need to requeen with queens better suited for beekeepers than queens better suited for bee sellers. Which means the seller is tasked with maintaining two lines. 

I am sure that some of the better producers do just that. So the question that needs to be asked of the bee seller, be it package or nuc, is not is he from the south or north, but what are the traits that he breeds for and what are the traits that he Queens with.


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## Broke-T

Bill Davis said:


> Then they would no longer have to be able to survive a harsher longer winter and they become a more southern stock. Would not take long before the only thing northern would be the name.


Not if you continue to bring in new breeders each year. Many migratory beekeepers come south every spring to split their hives early and build them up before moving back north. They use breeders selected for the traits they need up north but raise those queens down south each spring. It doesn't matter that they raise them in Texas or Mississippi, they are Northern selected.

Johnny


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## gmcharlie

I think Michael, there is one other factor in play here, and I mention it in passing, not to support one side or the other, but those who are capable of makeing nucs, or overwinter them, are by default better beekeepers. In my experince nucs have not done any better or worse than packages. overwintered nucs this year failed terribly, and several have not taken off at all. same with packages. ... I see a equal success either way, as well as failures. 
I do hope to get to the point that overwintering nucs is succesful and profitable. and selling more would be fine by me......at the moment my skills are not up to par to make the math work.


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## Bill Davis

Broke-T said:


> Not if you continue to bring in new breeders each year. Many migratory beekeepers come south every spring to split their hives early and build them up before moving back north. They use breeders selected for the traits they need up north but raise those queens down south each spring. It doesn't matter that they raise them in Texas or Mississippi, they are Northern selected.
> 
> Johnny


That's very true, if you were bringing in new breeders each year it would help but it would most likely require an overhaul of the queen operation to help one segment of the beekeeping population ( us northerners). And in order to get your bees down south to make splits you would be pulling them out in December, January when winter is just starting or still has months to go. What about the people in nicer climates that enjoy the traits of the southern bee.. If there was a magic queen that worked well in all climates our problems would be solved. I can't imagine the work and organization a large scale package producer like mike Gardner must have. I think these guys do a pretty good job and right now without them most people could not become new beekeepers because as we all know nucs are harder to come by.
That's why my origional point and advice to a new beekeper is if you need a package get it and requeen it with queens from someone you trust and shares a similar climate. It will just give a better chance at winter survival.


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## fatscher

gmcharlie said:


> Your one of darn few Michael, and i hope to be able to winter nucs like you, last year I didn't succeed.
> ...several of the nucs are just not ready to ship slow buildups.... way behind packages that started in March.....
> 
> AS for monies... you mention the 25.00 we make on packages. we drive to GA and answer hours of phone calls and questions for that 25.00...


GM, you continue to miss several key points. No one is suggesting nucs follow a business model like packages, whereas they're made, then shipped out, then turned into a profit. Some nuc producers do that, but the main point being made is for people to MAKE BEES THEMSELVES. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a beekeeper to make his own bees and you feed him for life! My nucs coming out of late winter are in no way slow...if fed properly, they are booming...Mike already said he has to add a second deep to his. Many of my nucs swarm before I can get a deep on 'em. So how is that a slow build-up??? Many times I can make up to 3 nucs in spring out of that 1 I overwintered. Some I sell, others I use to replace my deadouts, or to make increase (build-up my colony numbers).

Also, it's not hours of phone calls and questions for $25. $25 is PER PACKAGE, multiply that times the packages you're hauling back. Man, you're making some BANK! No wonder the package brokers don't want packages bad-mouthed... ...there's serious money to be made if people don't figure out how to make their own bees.


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## Broke-T

Anyone have an idea of what % of package sales go north vs stay in the south? I would figure its a pretty high %. I don't know many people down my way that uses packages.

Johnny


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## fatscher

gmcharlie said:


> ...those who are capable of makeing nucs, or overwinter them, are by default better beekeepers. ......at the moment my skills are not up to par to make the math work.





gmcharlie said:


> ...if I split everything I had I could only make 200 [nucleus colonies], That would take me back to almost nothing, and only make me 20k, I grossed a bit over 50 on honey last year....


gmcharlie, now you're not making any sense. If you have enough beekeeper skills to manipulate your colonies to yield enough honey to earn 50K in sales, then you have the level of beekeeper skill to overwinter nucs!! Listen man, you seem FAR more experienced than me -- a 6th year beekeeper!!! If I can overwinter nucs successfully (I've done it both in Northern Virginia as a 2nd year beek, and down south), then there's no excuse why you can't.

Flora, Illinois is no further north than Gainesville, Virginia (my old stomping ground), so don't even try saying your overwintering challenges are worse.

It seems, to me, you might just be an old dog who just refuses to learn a new trick. Overwintering nucs ain't the hardest thing to do in this world!


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## bluegrass

Michael Palmer said:


> I assume he would keep stock in the north, or ask customers to buy back queens that performed well, and use them for breeders in the southern queen rearing operation.


I don't know about buying back queens, but he does like to exchange brood combs from survivor hives for queens. He has also said that he hunts Ferals in MI every summer when he is back up there and brings them back to use in his queen rearing.

In response to an earlier post: I am not trying to dis-credit you in any way. I have a lot of respect for what you do and wouldn't discredit it. Just attempting to make a point. (in how management style impacts the survey responses.)

No offence I hope.


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## jim lyon

Broke-T said:


> Anyone have an idea of what % of package sales go north vs stay in the south? I would figure its a pretty high %. I don't know many people down my way that uses packages.
> 
> Johnny


i have wondered the same thing when I hear some of these numbers. Pretty much every beekeeper that I know of that summers in the Dakotas are splitting their own bees somewhere post almond bloom. I know there is a decent market for bulk bees in the queen business but after that with just a few notable exceptions it is mostly small orders. Maybe I'm missing something.


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## bluegrass

I am not sure how accurate the 750-800 K number actually is. I have seen that number cited in articles before. Knowing what the production of a few of the larger producers in GA I can surmise that GA's output alone is around 200 K. Add in Florida, Alabama, Louisiana and California production and I have no reason to doubt that 3/4 of a million isn't accurate. 

I can't see that many going out to hobbyist beekeepers though. I would assume that some of the migratory operations are using some of those packages. It is much easier to dump a package into a hive than making splits, especially if they are rearing the queens them selves. And if they buy packages in quantities in the 1000s they are only paying about $50.00 each for a pack. Quite a bargain when they can earn double that for each hive on every pollination contract.


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## ga.beeman

I disagree with the statement about nucs being thrown in a box And sold. I had to call the customer and tell some of them that I wouldnt have their nuc and that suxs. But I grow them out myself and take pride in my nucs. I watch them grow out and I know what they are getting. Some of us take pride in our bees


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## dphillipm

I would like to learn more about Michael's method of expanding your nuc's. I also think the Ga. Producers would have trouble finding mated northern queens as they seem to sale most of the packages early.


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## fatscher

bluegrass said:


> ...Knowing what the production of a few of the larger producers in GA I can surmise that GA's output alone is around 200 K. Add in Florida, Alabama, Louisiana and California production and I have no reason to doubt that 3/4 of a million isn't accurate.


Uhhh, you can take Alabama out of the package production equation. I hear Ed Norman might have shaken a handful of packages last year, and maybe Janet Parker at Bostic Hills Farms did too, but Alabama's package production is a paltry anemic lethargic ghost of what it was in the 1970's. I'm sure Ted Kretschmann could give us all a history lesson on this point.


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## gmcharlie

Well overwintering Nucs is much harder than normal colonies.. Just a trick I have not learned yet. We have some really bad weather for nucs here. cold and wet. I did better farther north..... and I can tell you so far, its not been worth the effort Not to say raising nucs is bad, but for the time and effort not profitable so far. All but one of teh nucs I overwintered are so far behind right now I could forget the existed. I just requeened and added bees to them. while March packages just got supers (they were on drawn comb)

Fastcher, your way off on the value of hauling and selling packages. This year it required at least 2 phone calls with EACH customer, and probably close to 20 minutes each just informing them of whats going on. Add Gas, hotels and just wasted time, and its not nearly as profitable as my day Job..... but not the point. Profit is higher on Nucs than packages..... at least at teh rates I charge


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## gmcharlie

ga.beeman said:


> I disagree with the statement about nucs being thrown in a box And sold. I had to call the customer and tell some of them that I wouldnt have their nuc and that suxs. But I grow them out myself and take pride in my nucs. I watch them grow out and I know what they are getting. Some of us take pride in our bees


Not intended for all by any means. but if some of the post are followed your also part of the problem.... they claim Local Nucs are the only solution..... I know most of the southern guys do it right... but the Majority sell first season nucs, not overwintered.


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## bluegrass

I checked 3 nucs for a customer just the other day and it reaffirmed what I have stated earlier in the post. He paid 138.00 each for them, Russian hybrids from a seller in Vermont. All three were 3 frames drawn and two of foundation. There was maybe 2 lbs of bees, not enough to cover three frames of brood. I found the cell cups in all three so the breeder didn't even see fit to remove those before selling the nucs and they were certainly not over wintered, though the buyer did not indicate that he had been told that they were. 

This customer bought a package from me last year and 4 nucs from this same source. The package is the only one that is still alive. He bought three packages from me and 3 nucs this year from this other guy. We will see how they do this season.


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## Michael Palmer

Well there are dishonest people in all walks. I don't doubt what you say...

especially if his initials are RS from S C Apiaries


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## bluegrass

Michael Palmer said:


> especially if his initials are RS from S C Apiaries


You are correct. I haven't ever dealt with them so I cant really comment on that, but from what I saw.......


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## rhaldridge

I wish you guys would not speak in shorthand about beekeepers we should beware. It took me all of 5 minutes to google up who you were talking about.

But I've made a note not to do business with that person.


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## Michael Palmer

Did you read the ABF article on same beekeeper?


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## rhaldridge

Michael Palmer said:


> Did you read the ABF article on same beekeeper?


Not yet. Can you summarize?


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## rkereid

Our local association got packages from a GA supplier in late April. There have been more queen problems than ever. There have always been some problems, but this year is much worse. Suppose it is the cold weather.


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## AstroBee

bluegrass said:


> You are correct. I haven't ever dealt with them so I cant really comment on that, but from what I saw.......



You should consider posting this in the Consumer Report forum so that others can benefit from your knowledge.


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## Michael Palmer

Summarize? Lies, distortions, bogus bologna.


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## BeeGuy54

I will say that my packages came in a week late from Drew apiaries 2013, but most of my buddies got cancelled from the other bee places in south Georgia. Great hives and queens. 10 hives made 200lbs each. My commercial buddy orders queens (100s) from them and he made approx. 130lbs each. Not too bad if you ask me. Just ordered 100 3s and happy I got April. That honey paid for my bees and then some.


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## xcugat

Bee Guy isnt H and R apiaries right in your town?


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## BeeGuy54

I get more than 3# of bees in every package and it more like 3 1/2 -4 lbs in the packages. Never gotten heavy packages for h&R. I like the drew queens better too. I've had better honey production every
season.


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