# Who makes the best frames.



## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Hey all I am fixing to make a large frame order and thought I would see which frames you think are best and why. I am leaning towards Mann Lake or shastina's but have no experience with either. Thanks


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

http://www.acornbee.com


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Have you seen _Barry_'s comprehensive wood frame review, here?
http://beesource.com/product-reviews/wood-frames-for-the-langstroth-hive/


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

I like Mann Lake wooden frames. I have put together well over a thousand and not 1 bad one. Robert


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Mbeck said:


> http://www.acornbee.com


Thanks. I love acorn plastic foundation. But I hate the feel of plastic frames. They slide to much for my taste.


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Mann Lake- quality wood and consistent.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

TNBee, please look carefully at Barry's review of frames. The crux of your decision re who to buy from should be based on the way the frame lugs are made. Betterbee makes a tapered lug that leaves a bee space above the frames when using migratory tops. Mann Lake frames have a non-tapered lug that is thicker resulting in no bee space and glued down covers when used with migratory tops. If the frames you already have came from Kelley, they won't mix well with frames from Mann Lake.

The prices Barry lists are for low quantities. By the 100, the prices are much better. I recently bought 500 Kelley frames for $78.30 per 100. The price was right, but I had to re-cut the bottom bars on my tablesaw because they varied in length by up to 1/4 inch.

Not sure how you will be assembling them, but I get much better results using 1.25 inch brad nails instead of staples. I purchased a brad nailer specifically to assemble frames.

Consider reading this thread, it has some good info about frames.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?325985


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

Never considered the tapered lug. Now I like Mann Lakes frames even better. I build my migratory lids with a 3/8 rim on the underside and have a small top entrance. The small top entrance reduces moisture in winter and helps dry honey in summer. Works for me, maybe not for everyone. Robert


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## Marti (Jun 29, 2014)

MannLake frames with Acorn foundation


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Lewis


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

Marti said:


> MannLake frames with Acorn foundation


That would be my perfect combination


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> Not sure how you will be assembling them, but I get much better results using 1.25 inch brad nails instead of staples. I purchased a brad nailer specifically to assemble frames.


Mine will do both brads and staples. I decided on staples for two reasons- a staple has two 'legs' so it would seem to be the equivalent of two brads; and having pried more than a few boards and seeing the heads of finish nails/brads just pull right through the wood it seems that the loop of the top of the staple would be more resistant to that.

Why do you like brads better? In what way do you feel the results are an improvement over staples?

(Trying to figure out if my thinking is screwed up, or if there is a compelling reason that I didn't think of at all.)


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

If you'd figure out a way to mass produce the ones you made and showed me, you would have a frame that's hard to beat!


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

Mann Lake has frames that are very reasonably priced, better than most of the other suppliers (last time I checked) and are very high quality so that's where I've been ordering them from. I'd definitely recommend them.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Why do you like brads better? In what way do you feel the results are an improvement over staples?


 I am gluing frames with titebond 3 with abundant glue in all parts of the joint. The purpose of the brad nail is to hold the frame together until the glue sets firm. I set up a side by side test with frames nailed with 1 1/4 frame nails and brad nails without glue. I deliberately pulled them apart and checked the force required. Brad nails held significantly better than nails. I figure this is because brad nails are square where frame nails are round. The brad nail has more surface area in contact with the wood.

Staples have to force their way into the wood and in the process crush the wood under the crown of the staple. This weakens the wood enough that the staple will often pull through. This is not a problem if the frame is glued. Brad nails do not cause the same type damage. I agree that brad nails without glue would be susceptible to pull through. So are staples. So are frame nails. If using staples without glue, I suggest narrow crown and 2 staples to ensure solid attachment between top bar and end bar.

The defining characteristics of a high strength frame:
1. The top bar is 1/2 inch thick where it attaches to the end bar and the frame lugs are tapered accordingly
2. The wedge is exactly 1/4 inch deep or the groove is 1/4 inch deep depending on frame type
3. End bars and bottom bars are at least 3/8 inch thick
4. All joints are cut for a tight fit so that maximum surface area is in direct contact between frame parts
5. All joints are glued with moisture resistant glue.

I threw away some frames last year including a few that I made in 1976. Those frames were not built as well as the frames I am currently making. I recognized them because I made a mistake cutting the wedge too deep.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Best unassembled wooden frames? NOT Kelley!


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## Schultz (Mar 9, 2015)

My vote is for Humble Abode's.


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## Bee Havin (Mar 1, 2017)

Mann Lake has a sale starting tommarow


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Schultz said:


> My vote is for Humble Abode's.


 I am blessed to be about an hour away from them. As a result, I spend way too much money there...


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

TalonRedding said:


> If you'd figure out a way to mass produce the ones you made and showed me, you would have a frame that's hard to beat!


Thanks I haven't figured how to manufacture 10,000 efficiently enough for my time. After weighing quality, and price Mann Lake is the front runner. I like shastina's quality but the price is just too much. 

Staples and glue for us. My wife can glue and assemble nearly 100 frames an hour. So that's 50 hours a piece no problem haha


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

TNBee, call and request a price from at least 3 suppliers that you find acceptable. With 10K frames, you have a big enough order to qualify for a big discount. Let them know that you are getting quotes from other suppliers. You should be able to get them down around 80 cents per frame, maybe a tad less.


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## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> Best unassembled wooden frames? NOT Kelley!


+1


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

In my experience, Kelley has the worst fitting/milled wood frames out there. Their level of precision is quite a bit lower than the other manufacturers.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> Staples have to force their way into the wood and in the process crush the wood under the crown of the staple. This weakens the wood enough that the staple will often pull through. This is not a problem if the frame is glued. Brad nails do not cause the same type damage. I agree that brad nails without glue would be susceptible to pull through. So are staples. So are frame nails. If using staples without glue, I suggest narrow crown and 2 staples to ensure solid attachment between top bar and end bar.


OK, thanks loads. I'm on overkill then- plenty of TB glue and more than enough staples (4 per side of top bar), narrow-crown, and I keep the pressure adjustment set so there is almost no crushing (except on the bottom bars, but that's no big deal).

I'll keep doing what I'm doing. Staples are probably more expensive than brads (haven't priced them) but I'm not doing a volume high enough to make the difference significant.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

clyderoad said:


> Best unassembled wooden frames? NOT Kelley!


I was just going to make the exact same post, except shorter... "Not Kelley."

I've only got experience with two kinds Kelley and Mann Lake. But 3rd handed have seen some Dadant ones and they look OK. Have never used them in the hive though.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Senco staples have a glue coating which helps keep them stay fastened better. 
https://www.amazon.com/Senco-L15BAB-Electro-Galvanized-Staples/dp/B0009XUL5C
I use Mann Lake frames. Wish the top bars were thicker.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Kelley's is pathetic. I have 5000+ of their frames not a fan. It's too bad they could be a great company.


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## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

speaking of Kelly's frames, should i fill the large gap on the bottom of the frames, and the wire holes with something?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> speaking of Kelly's frames, should i fill the large gap on the bottom of the frames, and the wire holes with something?


No need to fill them, the bees will do it for you in short order once they are in the hive.


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## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

I have tried Mann Lake, Dadant, and Kelleys. I like them in that order and Mann lake by far better than the other 2....just finished assembling 700+ with no problems....all fit well!


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Careful with MannLake. The frames are very nice, good wood and fit. However, if you are using wedge top bars, wired wax foundation with hooks the foundation has to be trimmed to fit. Also the MannLake top bar used for wedge top bars is actually their groove top bar with the wedge cut into it. This leaves a groove all the way through the end bars (wax moth and SHB hiding spots until the bees fill them with propilis. The grooved top bars are why the wired foundation is a poor fit. If you are not using the wedge top bars, I don't think Mann Lake can be beat.


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

I like mann lake frames best if those I have tried.

more precisely made. Extra features that take more time to manufacture, but still priced well.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Without a doubt, A.I.Root. Opps, you wanted to know who is NOW making the best frames.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

NOW, why yes that would be Lewis frames 
http://www.lewisandsons.ca/


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Mannlake Frame with Acorn double wax foundation is what I run. The last order I bought from ML was $.66 a frame delivered in the flat. 
I use a 3/8x1 1/2 18 ga. staple with glue. Frames will brake before coming a part. 

My two boys with two jig and one nail gun 10,000 frames in less then 40 hour. Only had come across a few that didn't get stapled all the way. Good thing for glue.


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## BeeRoger (Sep 26, 2012)

If you use the Mann Lake frames you should buy Mann Lake foundation as it is a bit shorter than everyone else's foundation to fit the thicker bottom bar they use. As a side note the Mann Lake foundation fits poorly in everyone else's frames due to being a bit short. Bought several cases last year during their sale and fought them all spring as they barely fit into the bottom bars. I also put extra glue on the top bars to fill the saw groove of the wedge frames.


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## costigaj (Oct 28, 2015)

Mann Lake first. Brushy Mountain second.


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

Love the Mann lake frames. Just got a 1000 more


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## robinh (Jun 19, 2014)

Mann Lake


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I've heard that Betterbee/Humble Abodes are great. Anyone compared those with Mann Lake?


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I've heard that Betterbee/Humble Abodes are great. Anyone compared those with Mann Lake?


Yes, I had about 200 ML frames and foundation from them as well. I had to trim all of the foundation to fit! Humble abodes is an hour drive so that's where I get most of my equipment now. It is very good quality!


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## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

anyone know who sells foundationless frames besides Kelley's. Betterbee is too pricey.


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## bentonbee (Jan 31, 2007)

BeeRoger said:


> If you use the Mann Lake frames you should buy Mann Lake foundation as it is a bit shorter than everyone else's foundation to fit the thicker bottom bar they use. As a side note the Mann Lake foundation fits poorly in everyone else's frames due to being a bit short. Bought several cases last year during their sale and fought them all spring as they barely fit into the bottom bars. I also put extra glue on the top bars to fill the saw groove of the wedge frames.


\

I agree 100 percent here! I fought it too. Wish I had known...now all of you know!


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## bentonbee (Jan 31, 2007)

Barry said:


> In my experience, Kelley has the worst fitting/milled wood frames out there. Their level of precision is quite a bit lower than the other manufacturers.


It never used to be that way when Walter T ran the company! Theirs matched anyone elses in quality.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Walter was a beekeeper. Enough said.


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