# Push in intro cages



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I am getting ready to introduce some breeder queens and wondering what an ideal size and depth is for them. Is 4" square a large enough surface area of brood for a good introduction? I normally do the standard cage/candy intro. But with a high dollar breeder perhaps an extra margin of safety is a good thing.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I use them all the time. 4x4 or 4x6. Locate the cage over emerging brood and nectar. Leave for 4 days. You'll be able to tell if she's accepted by the actions of the bees on the cage.

One thought. I've used them for years. Never checked the colony...just released her if the bees weren't grabbing or biting the cage. Stuck to the wire like velcro. Last summer I checked a few and found emergency cells with the new queen laying eggs under the cage. Of course the queen has been separated from the nurses by the screen, so it figures.

So this year I've been checking more extensively. Nearly 100% had emergency cells. So I now remove all the E-cells before I release the queen and I've had excellent acceptance. But I always did so I'm not really sure it matters. With a special breeder queen I would check.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I recently attempted to install a breeder queen this way, didn't work out so great. Guess I didn't get a good seal or the cage popped out at some point in a spot since you can get some tension created when you push it in. The nuc I pulled was all capped brood, 3 frames and I put the cage over emerging brood. I probably used about a 5" x 5", smaller is probably easier to manage as far as pushing it in goes, and it's not so easy to do at 9pm in the dark either.... Anyways, I checked on the queen the next morning, found the push in cage full of bees and no queen around... let just say I got pretty nervous but found her 2 frames over walking around fine and the nuc was acting queenright, they were pretty loud the night before after being queenless for about 1.5 hours. I checked her the next day and she was still walking around fine so I will check for eggs tomorrow maybe which is a week from install. I did test the intro by putting her cage over the screened entrance though and it seemed fine, the bees were excited to have a queen and I was tempted to just do a regular introduction at that point.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

The push in cages sold by the bees supply places aren't worth the plastic they are packaged in. 1/8 hardware cloth is the way to go and I still get bees chew under them sometimes. Far better acceptance with push in cages though. I have used small ones 4x3 and big ones 1/3 of the size of a frame. They all work good if you have nurse bees emerging into the cage.


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

Had the same thing happen the other day. Was sure she wold be balled with the accidental release after less than a day. Looked at a couple of frames and there she was. She's laying like crazy four days after making up the nuc.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> I use them all the time. 4x4 or 4x6. Locate the cage over emerging brood and nectar. Leave for 4 days. You'll be able to tell if she's accepted by the actions of the bees on the cage.
> 
> One thought. I've used them for years. Never checked the colony...just released her if the bees weren't grabbing or biting the cage. Stuck to the wire like velcro. Last summer I checked a few and found emergency cells with the new queen laying eggs under the cage. Of course the queen has been separated from the nurses by the screen, so it figures.
> 
> So this year I've been checking more extensively. Nearly 100% had emergency cells. So I now remove all the E-cells before I release the queen and I've had excellent acceptance. But I always did so I'm not really sure it matters. With a special breeder queen I would check.


Thanks. I will get the hardware cloth and tin snips out and see what I can come up with. I would think it would be important to get the depth right (at least 3/4" total?) so that there is plenty to go into the comb and still allow the queen can stand on the comb unmolested.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Do you introduce the queen/push in cage to a Nuc that has only recently been queenless (less than 1-2 days) or a hive that has been queenless longer ( as many as five days) smashing queen cells before introduction?

Do your breeder queens have excluded/restricted chamber or free reign?

In a dearth is it worth the extra measure to feed syrup during introduction?

If you feed syrup is it a benifit or detriment to use feed additives that may mask scents ex.HBH?

I don't have much experience with push in cages but this video helped my simple mind understand how to make them.

http://youtu.be/Wz7DDG2wyaY


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

What's the procedure to getting the queen in there? Do you shake off the frame, set her on the comb and then push the cage on over her?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Mbeck said:


> Do you introduce the queen/push in cage to a Nuc that has only recently been queenless (less than 1-2 days) or a hive that has been queenless longer ( as many as five days) smashing queen cells before introduction?
> 
> Do your breeder queens have excluded/restricted chamber or free reign?
> 
> ...


I plan on making up a single with 5 to 6 combs of brood, 2 to 3 frames of honey and an inside feeder. Unless there is a nice flow, I would probably give them a feed at the time of introduction being very careful not to spill any. A somewhat reduced entrance is always a good idea with a new nuc. I will most likely make them up a day ahead of time to insure that there are plenty of bees when I return the next day to intro. the queen.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Adam, I smoked the bees off the section I put the cage in, the queen was in a JZBZ cage, I opened the hole where you put the bees in, stuck the JZBZ cage into the comb to hold it in position then just put the push in over it. The JZBZ kind of let me guage how far to push the push-in as well. The queen and attendants were free to exit at their leisure. Everything seems to have worked out, she's laying now.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Years ago I made some 3/4" deep and about 4X4" with candy release exits. These days the bees are not as mean and introduction seems easier. Ah the day of the $7 queen.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> Thanks. I will get the hardware cloth and tin snips out and see what I can come up with. I would think it would be important to get the depth right (at least 3/4" total?) so that there is plenty to go into the comb and still allow the queen can stand on the comb unmolested.


3/4" is good. You want the cage pushed into the comb to the midrib with enough above the comb to preserve bee space.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Mbeck said:


> Do you introduce the queen/push in cage to a Nuc that has only recently been queenless (less than 1-2 days) or a hive that has been queenless longer ( as many as five days) smashing queen cells before introduction?
> 
> Do your breeder queens have excluded/restricted chamber or free reign?
> 
> ...


Obviously, you don't need a push-in cage in every instance. When setting up nucleus colonies, I just make up the nuc, move it to its yard, and give a caged queen with cork removed from candy end.

Jim's situation is different. He's introducing breeder queens, and wants to take extra precautions.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> What's the procedure to getting the queen in there? Do you shake off the frame, set her on the comb and then push the cage on over her?


Choose the comb to be used...one with emerging brood and a bit of nectar. Brush off the bees and take the comb to your truck. I like to lay a towel on my lap to keep the nectar off me. Lay the comb on the towel and the cage on the comb. Remove the queen from the cage, hold her by her wings, lift the cage, and stick her snoot against an emerging bee. This distracts her a bit, from flying. Release her and lower the cage...don't pinch her with the edge of the cage. Move the cage around until located over emerging brood and nectar. Push cage into comb to mid-rib.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> Choose the comb to be used...one with emerging brood and a bit of nectar. Brush off the bees and take the comb to your truck. I like to lay a towel on my lap to keep the nectar off me. Lay the comb on the towel and the cage on the comb. Remove the queen from the cage, hold her by her wings, lift the cage, and stick her snoot against an emerging bee. This distracts her a bit, from flying. Release her and lower the cage...don't pinch her with the edge of the cage. Move the cage around until located over emerging brood and nectar. Push cage into comb to mid-rib.


That is exactly how I do it. One tip I'll add, roll the windows up in the vehicle. :thumbsup: Sometimes they will fly around the window and you'll have to grab them by the wings and put them on the comb, then put the cage over them. 

If you aren't comfortable grabbing a queen by the wings you can make your push in queen cage with a small door on the side. Pull the cork out and put the hole of the cage down to the door and wait for her to walk in, then close the door of the cage up. Or the quicker way, get comfortable handling queens!


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Jim's situation is different. He's introducing breeder queens, and wants to take extra precautions.


Okay, but what if I have queens that I want to take extra precautions with? I've got a couple now that just might change modern beekeeping as we know it. Should I just slap these genetic goldmines into a hive any old way?:lpf:


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Mbeck said:


> Okay, but what if I have queens that I want to take extra precautions with? I've got a couple now that just might change modern beekeeping as we know it. Should I just slap these genetic goldmines into a hive any old way?:lpf:


Tell us more!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Mbeck said:


> Okay, but what if I have queens that I want to take extra precautions with? I've got a couple now that just might change modern beekeeping as we know it. Should I just slap these genetic goldmines into a hive any old way?:lpf:


No way, especially if they poop gold nuggets.

That would change modern beekeeping, now that I think of it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I like mine a bit bigger. 4" x 8" works very nicely. The queen has a bit more room to lay and I can get more space for her and some emerging brood more easily...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#pushincage
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearingsimplified.htm#pushincage
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm#ValuableQueen


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I find that plastic foundation works best as you can really seat the screen against the foundation - less chance for leakage. I have had bees dig under the screen to gain early access using conventional wax foundation. It always nerve-wracking introducing high dollar queens. Good luck!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Astro, good point there. My frame was wax and as I pushed it started to move in that direction pretty badly as well, I was wishing I had ritecell insert in the frame at the time.


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## OlofL (Jan 21, 2006)

I spray some water on the queen so she cannot fly, then it is safe to handle her anywere, not only in the car with windows up. I prefer the plastic cages with a door, very easy to handle.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

An update on my breeder queen intro: I made a couple 5x5" push in cages and pretty much followed Mike's suggestions (except I forgot to bring a towel for my lap and had to use a paper). The queens were pretty lively, and it was a bit tricky getting the cage down safely (dont dare try this outside folks). Left them for 5 days before checking them...... (pause for dramatic effect). It went perfectly, the queens were laying and surrounded by young bees and I observed no bees clinging to the cage. I pulled the cages and watched each one for a minute to see if any bees were pestering or riding her. All appeared well. I declared both intros. a success!


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Good thread. Leaving the shipping cage under the push in, and spritzing the queen with water - both good tips for butterfingers like me.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Good job Jim, i'm telling you though, if the queen cage fits under the push in... My queen has her first round of brood emerging, hopefully she makes through winter.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

JRG13 said:


> Good job Jim, i'm telling you though, if the queen cage fits under the push in... My queen has her first round of brood emerging, hopefully she makes through winter.


I see your point. It can be a bit risky getting the cage down on her safely. An interesting side note. Instead of making up a nuc we selected a couple of singles whose production was a bit on the low side and killed the queens. I left them queenless for 2 days and then checked them for e-cells. All I found were just a few dry cups despite the fact that both hives had lots of eggs and open larvae. I guess the bees know when it's too late to raise a queen.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Jim,

I'm glad to hear your introductions went well.

I just splurged into getting some breeder queens. I didn't use a push-in cage. I made up strong nucs and introduced the cages. Five days later the cages were empty. I haven't checked any closer than seeing lots of pollen coming in. I'm planning on doing a newspaper combine with weaker nucs to make them a 5+5 combination for the winter.

Now you've got me worrying about my queens survival!

Tom


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

I introduce 5 or 6 breeders each year and don't like starting with strong nucs. I start with 1 frame honey and 1 frame brood. I leave this nuc in home yard where older bees will go back home leaving young bees to accept new queens. Once out and laying I start adding frames of emerging brood to build up to stronger nuc.

Johnny


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

T- Broke - Like that idea, seems like a good idea to me.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

Careful introducing queens this time of year with push in cages. Small hive beetle larvae moves right in if the brood isn't emerging as you push the cage in. I do mine just like Johnny. I pull a good frame of emerging brood, a few extra shakes of nurses, move it across the yard, and put a quart feeder on top. All the foragers fly back and leave the nuc begging for a queen. As soon as shes laying good they get another frame of emerging brood or a few shakes of nurses at the entrance.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Dan,

That's an excellent point! I just got a swarm that was unwilling to stay in their new home, so I cagged the queen. I went back a day later and the SHB were inside the cage with the queen. Kinda creepy.


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