# I don't think my bees are going to make it through winter



## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

I'm in Northern CA and new to beekeeping. I installed a NUC in May. In the fall, I had a very strong hive. I noticed their stores were getting low, so I started feeding them sugar syrup again. (I stopped during summer because they quit taking it with all the blackberries in bloom) Then I began reading here that you should not feed syrup when it gets cold, and switch to either candy or pollen patties. (and brood patties in Jan/Feb) While I ordered the brood patties, I also bought some winter patties from Dadant - since it only changed the shipping by $5. 

I opened up the hive on a warm afternoon to give them the winter patty and I was shocked at how few bees there are in the hive. We are in the low 40's at night/60's in the daytime and January/February are our coldest months. I saw the queen, but I'm worried they are not going to make it once it gets really cold. I have no idea what I did wrong. Is there anything I can do now?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Did you do any mite testing/treatments? (I know...I'm beginning to sound like a broken record....for those of you who might remember records)


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Well, pollen patties are not equivalent to candy (or sugar). Pollen is needed to raise brood, but sugar/candy is a substitute for honey. If you need to feed, sugar/candy should be your first priority.

Michael Bush's site is quite useful for a new beek. Here is a page on feeding:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm


EDIT: Oops, I misread the original post about Dadant _winter _patties. I didn't realize that there were some patties that were little pollen substitute and mostly carbohydrate. This must be what I assume you are referring to:
http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1281


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## millerdrr (Dec 5, 2012)

I don't know about your specific area of California, but my bees are foraging just like it's midsummer, when the temps are up for a few days. Is it possible you just had a lot of bees out of the hive at that moment, maybe on cleansing flights?

I've actually had problems with warm winters, moreso than bitter cold. Bees aren't clustering and reserving honey, and they are rearing brood when nothing is in bloom. I had to start feeding at Thanksgiving; one hive had already starved out.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

beemandan said:


> (I know...I'm beginning to sound like a broken record....for those of you who might remember records)


Scratched CDs sometimes repeat themselves also. :lookout:


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## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well, pollen patties are not equivalent to candy (or sugar). Pollen is needed to raise brood, but sugar/candy is a substitute for honey. If you need to feed, sugar/candy should be your first priority.
> 
> Michael Bush's site is quite useful for a new beek. Here is a page on feeding:
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm
> ...


Yes, that is what I bought. I didn't do a complete hive inspection, so I don't know if they are rearing brood or not. As this is my first winter, I don't know what is "normal".


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## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

Not any treatments other than putting the plastic in the screened bottom board. I don't have it in now though.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Mites sap a bee colony’s vigor. The heavier the infestation the greater the price paid. Parasitized colonies produce less honey and often the overwintering population declines rapidly resulting in a small cluster…which in turn doesn’t have enough mass or energy to survive. While the outward appearance frequently indicates starvation or hypothermia, the underlying cause is mite parasitism.
Mites are, hands down, enemy number one.
Good luck.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Where you at in Placer Co?


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

What kind of bees do you have? For many years I had Italians and then one year bought some NWC queens. I was shocked to see such small clusters during the winter. I was convinced that they wouldn't make it, but they all did and caught up with the Italian hives by the time the honey flow started.


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## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

JRG13 said:


> Where you at in Placer Co?


Near Auburn.


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## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

I'm going to sound really dumb here, but I don't even know. I got the Nuc from Sacramento Beekeeping and never thought to ask.


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## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

beemandan said:


> Mites sap a bee colony’s vigor. The heavier the infestation the greater the price paid. Parasitized colonies produce less honey and often the overwintering population declines rapidly resulting in a small cluster…which in turn doesn’t have enough mass or energy to survive. While the outward appearance frequently indicates starvation or hypothermia, the underlying cause is mite parasitism.
> Mites are, hands down, enemy number one.
> Good luck.


Should I put the plastic back in the screened bottom board and see if there are any mites? Any other ways to check?


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## jwbee (Aug 8, 2012)

In your current weather , I would treat with oxalic acid vapour , just to be safe , it may help.

Just did mine a week ago , it is cheap and easy , and is effective in cold weather.

Google it.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Any effective mite treatment will also add additional strain on an already challenged colony of bees. I would put the plastic sheet beneath the screened bottom if for no other reason than to allow them to maintain cluster heat more easily. If they survive and pick up strength in spring….check for mites then and decide what to do. Just my opinion.


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## jwbee (Aug 8, 2012)

Well Dan , I appreciate your opinion , you have a lot more experience than I , but as I understand , oxalic vapor is less harmfull to the bees than most treatments if done right , and it is one of few that is effective in cold weather.

And I agree it may put some additional stress on the colony , but if the underlying cause is the mite problem , it would make sense to me to deal with it now as they may all be dead in the spring anyway , that is why I chose to do mine now , either way it's a crapshoot.

I should also add that I have been seeing way less dead bees in front of my hive since treating a week or so ago , it may just be coincidence , or it could be working?

Either way , I wish you good luck with your hive , this is my first year too , and it would be very disheartening to lose a hive now.


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## Tony Rogers (Oct 18, 2012)

I agree! You need to treat for mites. I had know Idea how bad of a mite infestation I had this year. I had 35 very strong hives in August and by the end of September they were all weak. I initially did the Oxalic Acid drizzle and have followed up with Oxalic Vapor! Being it is winter the vapor treatment is what I suggest. I also reduced my hives to 4 frame nucs(the less space for the bees to keep warm the better), combined some, added 2" risers just under the lids and I made two rows of hives on my bee trailer with a ceramic heater in between them to keep them from going below 35 degrees. I believe I will have 20-24 hives make it through the winter. A hard less learned and I will never go without treating, ever again.


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## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

So, dumb question. Should the queen be rearing brood this time of year? I was envisioning a sort of hibernation of the hive this time of year, then resuming brood rearing in the early spring - but what I'm reading suggests maybe that's not the case?

I will put the plastic board back in. I'm thinking I should reduce the hive to 1 deep for warmth? (I currently have 2 deeps) Right now they are clustered in the upper box, as that's where the feed is. Not all the comb is drawn out on the top box though - the outer 4 frames are just wax foundation. Also, what about an entrance reducer? I don't have one, should I get one?

I will look into the mite treatment - thanks for the information.

Sorry for so many questions - I just don't want to lose them if I can help it. If I can get them to February to early March, that is when the bloom starts here.


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## Tony Rogers (Oct 18, 2012)

Michkel, what's the location of your bees? Your status says Placer county california! What town are you near? Oops! I see you posted this already.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

It is good to remember that the last week in September is a good time to start your winter mite treatments, this will give the hive an opportunity for at least two more brood cycles providing them with healthy bees that will survive the winter. I have found oxalic vapor to be a very effective tool in the fight against Varroa.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

mich, how many frames of bees do you have?


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## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

WWW said:


> It is good to remember that the last week in September is a good time to start your winter mite treatments, this will give the hive an opportunity for at least two more brood cycles providing them with healthy bees that will survive the winter. I have found oxalic vapor to be a very effective tool in the fight against Varroa.


Good to know, thank you!

I'm hoping to get into a beekeeping class this year. Gosh I underestimated this adventure!


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## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> mich, how many frames of bees do you have?


Less than 1 frame from what I saw, but I didn't want to disturb them too much by messing with the hive, so I just pulled one empty frame out and moved the others to see down between the frames.


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## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

Tony Rogers said:


> Michkel, what's the location of your bees? Your status says Placer county california! What town are you near? Oops! I see you posted this already.


If you are not familiar with the area, I am 1/2 way between Sacramento and Lake Tahoe on 80 in the foothills.


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## Kelbor (Apr 26, 2011)

You mean like Nevada City/Grass Valley? I grew up in the country out there....its good 'bee land' with the abundant forest fires and resulting blackberries and poison oak! 

Im also looking for a good recipe for pollen/candy patties. Im in the N.W. now and have a light hive that may not make it on their stores.


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

I've followed the rules and failed. I've ignored the rules and succeeded. The more I fuss, the weaker they get. The less I do, the better they do. My first hive I found down to two frames in late August and learned about our summer dearth. I filled the feeder and left them to their own devices. They surprised me the following spring and became the source of over a dozen colonies over the past eight or so years. Hopefully they will surprise you. If so, I suspect you will create a strong source for more.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Michkel,
I made a mistake earlier when I said that the last week in September was a good time to start treatments, I must have been slightly off kelter that day, I meant to say the last week in August,


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## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

throrope said:


> I've followed the rules and failed. I've ignored the rules and succeeded. The more I fuss, the weaker they get. The less I do, the better they do. My first hive I found down to two frames in late August and learned about our summer dearth. I filled the feeder and left them to their own devices. They surprised me the following spring and became the source of over a dozen colonies over the past eight or so years. Hopefully they will surprise you. If so, I suspect you will create a strong source for more.



Thank you - you give me hope. It's been cold lately and I've been worried about them. It's been too cold/rainy to open up the hive and check, so they have their feed and hopefully they will make it. My fingers are crossed.


WWW - thank you for the clarification on mite treatments.


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