# Golden Mean Hive from Backyardhives



## sevenbravo

Hope it is OK is insert a photo instead of a link. I am new here, please let me know if this is a no no.


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## Solomon Parker

Pretty!


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## trentfysty

SevenBravo,

The hive looks great. Yes I have a golden mean hive and it has worked well. What are your questions about the top? One thing I will say is that I had to make a new top that had a pitch to it as water collected on the roof and caused it to split. Also, you need to apply some sort of finish to the hive body or it will split as well. I used a 20:1 mixture of linseed oil and beeswax and that holds up well. Just need to touchup once a year.


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## sevenbravo

Hi Trentfysty. I was thinking that pitching the roof would be a good idea too. I am making another for my brother in law and will likely do it to that one.

My question was about the roof fit. When the roof is place on top it rests on the triangle pieces in the roof corners and leave a pretty large gap between the roof and the bars. Without the braces it seems to come to an appropriate level,resting on the hive handles, but with the bars it seems pretty high. Is that how yours ended up?


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## Merlinspop

If you have an RV shop near you, you can probably score a piece of the rubber membrane used on RV roofs and stretch that over the top for decent waterproofing.


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## trentfysty

sevenbravo said:


> Hi Trentfysty. I was thinking that pitching the roof would be a good idea too. I am making another for my brother in law and will likely do it to that one.
> 
> My question was about the roof fit. When the roof is place on top it rests on the triangle pieces in the roof corners and leave a pretty large gap between the roof and the bars. Without the braces it seems to come to an appropriate level,resting on the hive handles, but with the bars it seems pretty high. Is that how yours ended up?



Yes, that is how mine ended up. I changed the design of the top to eliminate the triagle pieces you are talking about so that the top sat firmly on the bars. That only lasted about 4 months and then the top split and I replaced it with a pitched roof. I used a rabited joint in the corners for the roof and that eliminated the need for the triagle braces. Hope that helps.


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## sevenbravo

Thanks for the tip. I rabbeted my roof frame as well so I don't need the triangle braces. 

Also, there is a discrepancy between the top bar that the company manufactures/sells and the dimensions of the bars on the plans. I made my bars according to the plans except my bar tips are not a full 45 degree angle. I would assume the bees don't mind and the bar spacing is probably the only critical measurement.


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## trentfysty

sevenbravo said:


> Thanks for the tip. I rabbeted my roof frame as well so I don't need the triangle braces.
> 
> Also, there is a discrepancy between the top bar that the company manufactures/sells and the dimensions of the bars on the plans. I made my bars according to the plans except my bar tips are not a full 45 degree angle. I would assume the bees don't mind and the bar spacing is probably the only critical measurement.


You are right, the angle really won't matter to the bees. The spacing will matter more. There are a number of different opinions as to what to do. You can use 1 1/4" bars and then add 1/4" spaces for the honey comb, use all 1 3/8" bars with no spacers or use a combination of 1 1/4" and 1 1/2" bars. I go with the first option and add spacers between for the honey comb. I found that the 1 3/8" bars ended up with some overlap in the honey area and were more difficult to separate and with the spacers and 1 1/4" bars the problem was solved.


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## sevenbravo

Got all my bars done. Very happy with how they turned out. I made all the cuts on the table saw this time (as opposed to three different tools on the first batch) and they all match perfectly.


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## trentfysty

sevenbravo said:


> Got all my bars done.


Sevenbravo, the bars look great. Nicely done. Now all you need is some bees. Best of luck!


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## Adam Foster Collins

sevenbravo said:


> Got all my bars done. Very happy with how they turned out. I made all the cuts on the table saw this time (as opposed to three different tools on the first batch) and they all match perfectly.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Sevenbravo - Beuatiful top bars. Bravo!
> 
> Do you mind explaining your process for making those with the table saw? I'd love to try building some like that this spring.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Adam


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## sevenbravo

Sure, I will take some step by step photos when I make another set this week.


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## DCowles

I just finished my Golden Mean hive and am waiting for my package to arrive. I missed out on a swarm last week because I didn't have the confidence (or equipment) to retrieve it. As for the top bars, I started with 36" 2x2 poplar turning blanks from Lowes. My steps:

1. Cut to length with miter saw.
2. Rip to width with table saw.
3. Cut hanger ends with table saw and homemade tenoning jig.
4. Cut end angles with table saw (blade tilted) and miter gage.
5. Cut long angles with table saw (blade tilted) with fence on left side and push sticks (the trailing stick often ran through the blade).

My biggest problem was burning the wood because my saw is out of alignment. Hopefully it just makes the bees feel more like they are in an old burnt out stump.

If I need to make more, I will probably go the cheaper route and use pine lumber.

David


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## trentfysty

I have use poplar and pine. The pine seems to work just fine, just look for a board with as few knots as possible. Something else that really helped was purchasing a thin-kerf saw blade for my table saw. That reduced the about of waste caused by a full-kerf blade. The saw also seems to cut easier. 

Poplar is best purchased at a hardwood outlet. Look in your area and you should be able to find one. I usually purchase 6/4 or 8/4 and cut it down. The cost is slightly more than pine at Lowes or Home Depot but far less than poplar for Lowes or Home Depot. You can usually buy it in rough cut form which saves money and works fine for the top bars.


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## sevenbravo

I made my bars completely from 2X4s. I had to do some sorting, but I was able to find straight, knot free stock. I tried to film my last production run but I couldn't find help so I didn't get it done. I think this works great though. Accurate, requires one tool and the wood is cheap.


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## Adam Foster Collins

DCowles said:


> ...
> My biggest problem was burning the wood because my saw is out of alignment. Hopefully it just makes the bees feel more like they are in an old burnt out stump.
> ...


When I built my last batch of hives, I "sketched" over the entire interior of the boxes with a blow torch. My thinking was that the new wood and adhesive smells might bother the bees, and that a very slightly burned wood smell wood would be better.

Adam


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## blist

I found the plans for the golden mean hive to be disappointing. My buddy and I ended up getting them built but there were quite a few discrepancies on the plans and I can't stand that they used some sort of stylish script font (very difficult to read). At any rate, I am thinking of modifying things a bit and building another. The current design is 26" L, 16" W top 10" W bottom, and 9.5" H (interior). I really think it is too small. I'm thinking more along the lines of 42" long (or at least 36"), dual windows and maybe an entrance on each side (that can be closed off). Also, thinking about maybe top entrance instead of bottom entrance. The 3" bottom entrance landing strip could be cut down to 1" or less probably if a bottom entrance was kept.

I will post some pictures tomorrow of how we modified the roof from the plans. We basically just bent a piece of plywood over it so the top is a very shallow semi-dome...looks very nice and is very functional...though it is a bit heavy. We kept the corner blocks in and the roof should lay flat on the bars even with the corner blocks, they fit around the handles to make the roof fit tighter.


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## blist

trentfysty said:


> You are right, the angle really won't matter to the bees. The spacing will matter more. There are a number of different opinions as to what to do. You can use 1 1/4" bars and then add 1/4" spaces for the honey comb, use all 1 3/8" bars with no spacers or use a combination of 1 1/4" and 1 1/2" bars. I go with the first option and add spacers between for the honey comb. I found that the 1 3/8" bars ended up with some overlap in the honey area and were more difficult to separate and with the spacers and 1 1/4" bars the problem was solved.


They use 1 3/8" bars with 1/4" spacers for honey (so 1 5/8").


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## sevenbravo

Here are two pictures of my roof.



















I have built 7 of these so far and I have changed each one slightly. And like previous posters have mentioned, I am making the next one 42" long.


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## blist

sevenbravo said:


> Here are two pictures of my roof.
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> I have built 7 of these so far and I have changed each one slightly. And like previous posters have mentioned, I am making the next one 42" long.


very nice job


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## blist

here is how we did our roof, not super pretty but functional


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## PatBeek

Hello, everyone.

The hives are quite impressive. Thanks so much for the photos.

With the help of my neighbor, we have just finished building mine (he has a nice woodworking shop and the mad skillz to go along with it).

We opted for a cement ply-board that is attached directly to the wooden portion of the roof. The bees will only have direct contact in the hive to the natural wood. But the cement ply-board will protect the bee-landing area from much of the rain (see how it extends outward) and also protect the wooden roof.

My question to all of you is, do any of you recommend any type of sealant for the outside portion? Could this be toxic for the bees? 

Thanks so much in advance.


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## PatBeek

Here are more photos from my build:


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## PatBeek

Thanks so much for that suggestion from previously in the thread (below). I may go with that.




trentfysty said:


> SevenBravo,
> 
> Also, you need to apply some sort of finish to the hive body or it will split as well. I used a 20:1 mixture of linseed oil and beeswax and that holds up well. Just need to touchup once a year.


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## blist

I didn't apply any sort of finish on mine. I plan on building a custom hive this year as the golden mean hive is too short for my taste. I wouldn't doubt if the designers did it to promote swarming.


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## PatBeek

Blist, how many times have you had issues with swarms absconding altogether?

Was it here that I read where someone suggested to place a top bar of brood in the newly loaded hive because a swarm would never abandon brood?

I don't have another hive with bees in it though.


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## tsk

PatBeek said:


> Here are more photos from my build:


Very nice looking PatBeek. Can I ask what you went with as far as dimensions (length? width of bars?) This seems like a cool/fun addition to the yard.



PatBeek said:


> My question to all of you is, do any of you recommend any type of sealant for the outside portion? Could this be toxic for the bees?


I would probably use a spar varnish personally. Perhaps some stain underneath, perhaps not. A spar varnish should be pretty safe, it will also protect well outside.


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## blist

PatBeek said:


> Blist, how many times have you had issues with swarms absconding altogether?
> 
> Was it here that I read where someone suggested to place a top bar of brood in the newly loaded hive because a swarm would never abandon brood?
> 
> I don't have another hive with bees in it though.



they typically shouldn't swarm unless the colony has built up and is healthy enough to split...

my point about the golden mean hive was that even a package can fill that hive in a very short amount of time

you can do things to try to discourage swarming but a small hive obviously isn't on your side...you should be able to go to about 4' without any problems on a TBH according to some of the "masters" who have written on the subject


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## PatBeek

tsk said:


> Very nice looking PatBeek. Can I ask what you went with as far as dimensions (length? width of bars?) This seems like a cool/fun addition to the yard.


tsk, thanks so much. I used basically the same dimensions as the others in this thread who built the Golden Mean from Corwin Bell's plans. The basic dimensions are this (all approximates)

Hive length: 30"

Hive width at top: 16"

Hive width at floor: 10"

Top bars: 17 3/4"

Lid is 31" by 19"

Like several mentioned above, the plans had to be amended in a couple of different areas. I thought the biggest ball-drop of the plans was the explanation of the false back. The window retainers were a bit weird. They should have listed the 18-degree angle in addition to the 108-degree angle on the sides (no biggie...just had to do some math). A few other vague things kinda pissed-off my neighbor who helped me build it. But it will be much easier in future attempts.




tsk said:


> I would probably use a spar varnish personally. Perhaps some stain underneath, perhaps not. A spar varnish should be pretty safe, it will also protect well outside.


Thanks so much for that tip. 

.


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## PatBeek

.

Regarding sealing or painting the hive, I found this interesting article on Corwin Bell's site:

*Should I weatherize my new top bar hive?*

.


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## KatGold

Hi everyone,

We've made two Golden Mean hives. I put a package of bees in one 8 weeks ago (I don't have bars for the second hive yet). The hive with bees is already getting crowded and I have 4 queen cells and I think they're about to swarm. 

Just this morning I was told that the hives are about a foot too short to be useful and to expect multiple swarms. 

I'm wondering if any of you have had your hives for longer than this season. If so, what has your experience been like?

I'm also going to post this with a different thread title to see if I can get some responses. It sounds like you folks are all new, like me, but I'm not sure. I think it would be interesting for all of us to know.

THanks.


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## blist

I've had two for a while. Built straight from the plans or bought...bottom line, they will probably swarm every year. If you ask me, I think they did that on purpose (to encourage swarming).

We actually built a copy modified hives this year that are basically longer. We even swapped bars from one of the old ones to the new longer one. If building, do yourself a favor and make it longer.


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## PatBeek

.

Mine now has a very small crew in it from a cut-out I did on April 30th.

I'm hoping they beat the 'bee math'. Their lives are so short.

*Anyhow, here's how my Golden Mean hive sits now:*










*Here's a photo I took of my small crew a couple of weeks ago building new comb. They now have capped brood, but hopefully it will be enough:*











*I have even made new uniforms for all my bees:*


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## blist

looks similar to a setup I have on two of mine...I will post some pics of the old and new next to each other


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## PatBeek

One other thing I'd like to point out - it seems how the angled top bars are constructed that the bees almost automatically build straight comb, right down the middle point.

They are very time-consuming to construct, but probably worth it. 

I won't be building one that nice for a long time. In fact, here are two others I've slapped together since:



















and




















.


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## blist

PatBeek said:


> One other thing I'd like to point out - it seems how the angled top bars are constructed that the bees almost automatically build straight comb, right down the middle point.


I've had problems with straight comb on every single one of them. The 2 hives we built this year have real bad cross comb, we cut and attempted to fix one last week and I'm doing another in the next couple days. I would recommend that you just keep a close eye on it as they build and correct any problem you see immediately...then you should be ok.


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## PatBeek

blist said:


> I've had problems with straight comb on every single one of them. The 2 hives we built this year have real bad cross comb, we cut and attempted to fix one last week and I'm doing another in the next couple days. I would recommend that you just keep a close eye on it as they build and correct any problem you see immediately...then you should be ok.


Even with the pointed Golden Mean-type top bars you've had problems?

Well, admittedly mine have only build about 3 small combs, but they are right on target.

I'm sure you have heard this before, but place a guide-comb in there, even with hairclips if need-be, and they will build straight comb after that one, at least for awhile.

But yes, it needs to be monitored frequently and remedied before it gets out of hand.

.


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## blist

yep, even with beautifully crafted top bars...as you said above, monitor frequently and use guide comb if you have it, you still have to watch it because of bee space though, one of my hives started out great and was straight until about half way through the hive, then slowly but surely they got off track until the last few bars weren't under the actual top bar correctly at all


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## Bush_84

The only issue I have ever had with comb building was a little wave in the edge of the combs after they had filled out about 50% of the hive. Straighten out the edge and put a straight comb behind it from elsewhere in the hive and you are golden.


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## PatBeek

Do any of you have updates/photos of how your hives are doing now?


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## KatGold

My bees are doing great! They all made it through the winter and are healthy and friendly. But I didn't get a speck of honey. I have to feed them in February. I'm disappointed in my box, but am pleased with my nice little bees. If I can afford it, I'm going to switch to a langstroth next year.


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## PatBeek

KatGold said:


> I'm disappointed in my box, but am pleased with my nice little bees. If I can afford it, I'm going to switch to a langstroth next year.


Why disappointed?

There are many Langstroth owners who have dead bees. You should be THRILLED.


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## blist

outside looking in, both my original hive and my modified hive are completely full (thriving), I haven't opened them yet

per a previous post my original hive swarmed 3 times last year...the hive is too small IMO, the modified version I made looks promising

KatGold, you expecting honey to be in there after the winter? I would suspect mine would have used most of their stores up during the winter.

Also, why disappointed? going to a Lang. doesn't mean your hive will survive


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## AkDan

2 of 2 hives dead.


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## Jeff Bush

I was looking on the Top Bar Site to get some information on bar width for the hive he built from looking at pictures. I have traditional Lang. hives but am impressed by the look of your hive and though that it may be interesting to try a top bar hive (if winter ever ends in Minnesota this year). I admittedly no know nothing about Top Bar design except what I have read in the last 30 minutes. Wondering if you have plans for your hive that you would be willing to share.

Great looking hive.


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## KatGold

PatBeek said:


> Why disappointed?
> 
> There are many Langstroth owners who have dead bees. You should be THRILLED.


Okay, good point. And I am delighted that my bees did so very well.

I was disappointed that the box was so full and has been full for a year, but I never get a drop of honey. The hive is too short. I know lang owners who got over a hundred pounds of honey.

On the upside, I know that there are gazillions of bees out there that weren't there last year.

Over the last month, I have witnessed THREE separate swarms from my hive. I don't know if there were more when I wasn't around. 

Is there any reason to believe that the lang bees may have a more difficult time making it over the summer than the TBHs? I am seriously considering switching to a lang. 

Any reason why I shouldn't?


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## robherc

KatGold said:


> I was disappointed that the box was so full and has been full for a year, but I never get a drop of honey. The hive is too short. I know lang owners who got over a hundred pounds of honey.
> [snip]
> Over the last month, I have witnessed THREE separate swarms from my hive. I don't know if there were more when I wasn't around.
> 
> Is there any reason to believe that the lang bees may have a more difficult time making it over the summer than the TBHs? I am seriously considering switching to a lang.
> 
> Any reason why I shouldn't?


Well, unfortunately, nobody can answer that question directly for you, except yourself; in the end, the TBH/Lang question is a personal one, and everyone should consider it, maybe try both, and decide what they, personally, prefer. One thing I CAN say, here, though, is *PLEASE* don't base your evaluation of all TBH hives on the Golden Swarm-thrower hive! There are actually hundreds (if not thousands) of TBH designs out there, and I dare say that the Golden Mean is in the bottom half (if not quarter/tenth) for being appropriately sized.

As far as other TBH designs go, Michael Bush has TONS of useful into published at http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm that I'd recommend every new beek read through (whether you plan to use TBH or Lang hives, either way, it's a LOT of useful info there...I used it myself). Also, I myself have completed a couple TBH hives of my new (and, I believe, final) design which allows the top bars, and the combs built on them, to be 100% compatible/interchangable with a Lang deep. I've had good success with my earlier designs (I only changed the bar design by 1/4" since then, as I'd made a "compatibility error" when I built those), had several hives come through this past winter nicely, and even harvested a few pounds of honey from first-year hives last year. Right now, I'm working on a nice, clearly-written set of instructions & illustrations for constructing my current/final TBH design, if you PM me I can send you what I have finished so far, and walk you through the parts that I still need to get instructions & diagrams made for. I guess, in your situation, the one biggest reason I'd recommend giving my "standardized" TBH a try is that it's EASILY convertable into a Lang, in many ways, it really is more of a hybrid, as one of the design intents is that I can add Lang supers directly to this hive if I want to give my girls a little more honey-storage space! 

Jeff Bush & others: The offer for the design/walkthrough for building my hives is available to any who want to give it a try... fair warning: building this hive DOES require a fair amount of woodworking skills, and is NOT an "easier build" than Langstroth equipment (just easier on my back to work, as there are usually no 100lb supers to lug around...and better insulated).


P.S. 
Box inside dimensions (ignoring the inward-slope of the lower side walls): 47.25"x19.125"x10" ... gives the bees about as much space as 3 10-frame Lang deeps (and that's after figuring in the lost space from sloping the side walls)
Materials: 1 4'x8' sheet of 3/8" ply (more if you have "oopsies" when cutting), 1 8' long 2x6, and several 2x4s.
Minimum tools: Router table (I made the earlier ones without it, but DO NOT recommend trying those methods), circular saw, drill, and either a table saw or a bandsaw (ideally, both...but I don't have a table saw set up yet myself).


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## KatGold

Well heck yea, I would love to see your plans. I will PM you in a moment.

Thanks for the comment about my hive plan being at the bottom half (or worse) of the TBH plans. I really felt like this was the right direction for me and have been sorely disappointed. It was quite an expense to get no honey out of it, but I do keep reminding myself that a greater good (more thrown bees) was served. I'm glad to know I just made a bad choice.

I've considered getting a food grade barrel from the local homebrew shop and slicing it down the side, figuring out a way to keep it from rolling over, and moving my bars into it. I haven't figured out a landing board, but maybe just drilled holes would do. What do you think about that?

I'm pretty sure I'll try the lang. I'm sort of running out of space, but what the heck. No harm in trying. No harm in putting them beside each other either, I don't think.

Thanks!


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