# Help with Expensive Breeder queen introduction problem



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

I've got a very expensive breeder queen I'm trying to introduce into a single medium queen timing box I built on Saturday. It's 8 frames of brood, lots of bees, 2 frames of stores. When I built the box I saw the hive queen in her bottom box. I never saw a queen on any frames as I moved them over. I checked each frame again before I put her cage in the hive but they tried very hard to sting her thru the cage. I waited about an hour, checked again, they where still trying to sting her. So I pulled her and went thru every frame again. No queen, no queen cells. I'm sure I wouldn't be able to see a virgin in all those bees. I did something I've done before, sprayed sugarwater with HBH on her cage and all the frames. It's the only thing I could think to try.
I'm not sure how long the candy will last, if they release her today, she's a goner. 

I've read all the queen introduction threads and am prone to leave the box closed for 10 days and pray for a good outcome. But I've seen hives just about dance they are so happy when they find the queen cage. This was an all out attack. I don't see how I could have missed a queen going thru the frames 3 times.

I'm open to suggestions. At this point I can probably only do two things. Leave her alone, or if they haven't released her before I get home this afternoon which is about 24hrs, look and see if the cage is still under attack, if it is, pull her out, make a two frame nuc that is queenless and introduce her to that nuc. If they aren't taking care of her, she'll be in trouble anyway in this heat.
It was 99 degrees yesterday...

Thoughts or suggestions.... I hate to lose any queen, but to lose the only breeder queen I've ever bought really makes me sick.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

It sounds as if you've a virgin running around in there. If you can't find her (and they can be difficult to spot) start over rather than run the risk of losing that breeder. That's a lot of money to lose.


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## bendriftin (Nov 1, 2010)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

use the push in cage method.

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/QnIntroInstr.html


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



bendriftin said:


> use the push in cage method. http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/QnIntroInstr.html


If there's a virgin in there, that won't help...........


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

I agree with the idea of setting up a new small nuc. Just a frame or so of bees and open brood is all you need to keep her safe. Put her in there.


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## bendriftin (Nov 1, 2010)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

I have my doubts that there is a virgin. I have put in nearly 200 queens this year and about 30 prevents didn't get accepted. I don't know if they are not getting mated well, low pheromone levels or if it is just the bees. I watched a thing on youtube about ten steps for beekeeping by the owner I think of bee culture magazine. He said that many people have reported needing to leave a queen caged in a hive for 7 days. By putting her in a push in cage you can at the very least get a few good eggs out of her and you can move her around on the frame getting some adding foot print pheromone as well as the brood pheromone as soon as her eggs hatch. This all equalls to greater success in introduction. If the bees are still attacking the cage in another three days then you may have a virgin but hopefully she will have been mated by then and you can find her easier.


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## gezellig (Jun 11, 2014)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

Don't have the candy exposed yet. Put a cork, tape it up, or whatever to prevent them being able to eat the candy just yet. She will last a long time in there without being released. Wait till they accept her before allowing them to eat the candy away.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



gezellig said:


> Don't have the candy exposed yet. Put a cork, tape it up, or whatever to prevent them being able to eat the candy just yet. She will last a long time in there without being released. Wait till they accept her before allowing them to eat the candy away.


+9 on this. Leave the cork, put her in, don't worry about the reaction. I've had hives dance to new queens too, figure I'll help them out and direct release them the next day... dead in 15 seconds.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

I am curious...how much does one pay for an expensive breeder Queen?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

Depends on whose breeder it is. Glenn sold theirs at $125, II queens. Most people nowadays, sell select open mated breeders for that price. II queens, typically $200-$450 range depending on the breeder. WSU sell theirs at $750, Caucasian, Old world Italian, Carniolan.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

am very sorry she died, is sad they don't know class when they see it... and they take a virgin they made over a fully mated breeder queen??? sound fishy.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

Use a much smaller nuc. I make mine up with 2 frames brood, 1 frame honey and just enough bees to cover frames. Use a push in cage and take your time. Build up stronger after she is accepted.

Johnny


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



beestudent said:


> am very sorry she died, is sad they don't know class when they see it... and they take a virgin they made over a fully mated breeder queen??? sound fishy.


She hasn't died yet....


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

It's easier to introduce a queen into a small weak nuc than into a more populated stonger hive. It's also easier if there are not any field force aged bees. Even so, with some bees, if there are viable eggs or young larva, they would rather make a queen of their own than accept an introduced queen. I agree with others here, make up a small weak nuc for her to be introduced to. You can strengthen it up to a timing box after she is accepted and laying well.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



JRG13 said:


> +9 on this. Leave the cork, put her in, don't worry about the reaction. I've had hives dance to new queens too, figure I'll help them out and direct release them the next day... dead in 15 seconds.


doesn't this say shes dead? if not, i am sorry for misinterpreting it.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



Robbin said:


> I've got a very expensive breeder queen I'm trying to introduce into a single medium queen timing box I built on Saturday. It's 8 frames of brood, lots of bees, 2 frames of stores. When I built the box I saw the hive queen in her bottom box. I never saw a queen on any frames as I moved them over. I checked each frame again before I put her cage in the hive but they tried very hard to sting her thru the cage. I waited about an hour, checked again, they where still trying to sting her. So I pulled her and went thru every frame again. No queen, no queen cells. I'm sure I wouldn't be able to see a virgin in all those bees. I did something I've done before, sprayed sugarwater with HBH on her cage and all the frames. It's the only thing I could think to try.
> I'm not sure how long the candy will last, if they release her today, she's a goner.


Hello folks,
here's a slightly modified version of what we send out to our customers before we ship out their queens. 

A couple things to keep in mind:

1. Unsealed brood is not good for introducing queens.
2. As Johnny Thompson aptly stated, a small nuc with a frame of stores and a couple frames of emerging brood and adhering bees is the best set-up for success.
3. Using a push-in cage is essential for an AI breeder. Adding the newly-hatched attendants (see below) will keep the queen okay for three days or until the colony releases her.
4. After three days the queen should be released or she will begin to starve (she needs to have access to the frames/nuc).


***********************************************************************************************************************************

*VP Queen Bees Introduction Instructions/Procedure:*

Hi,
Please find introduction instructions for your breeder queen(s) below.

This is the method to use: we do not support any other method: we introduce
hundreds of AI queens each year in this fashion and have almost a perfect
success rate:

Make up a small nuc: 1 frame stores, 3 frames sealed/emerging brood and
bees.

*DO NOT USE FRAMES WITH UNSEALED BROOD.*

Use a push-in cage and place the queen under it, over a few cells
of emerging brood and nectar. (or just nectar and open cells).
Search out and find 4 newly emerged workers and place them in the
cage with the queen.

Observe the queen and make sure she's okay -> a small puff of smoke will
calm any agitated workers under the cage (very rare). Put the frame with
the queen back into the small colony and leave one bee's space between the
cage and the next frame.

*Release:* THREE DAYS, after caging her, release queen (if she has
not already been released) and watch bees' behavior. If hostile,
cage queen again with young workers for a few more days.

Additional info from Glenn Apiaries:
http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/QnIntroInstr.html
Scroll to: Push-in Cage Instructions

*********************************************************************************************************

We often have people who introduce the queen fine but then find she seems to be laying poorly.
Providing new frames of emerging brood/young bees to the nuc will help the breeder queen to settle into egg laying_:

*She needs to be fed to produce eggs!*_



A naturally mated queen could be introduced this same way with excellent chances for success. 
Making a push-in cage is pretty easy. 

I use a small one: 
2 1/2" X 2 1/2" or 3" X 3" made with 8 mesh hardware cloth. I like this using smaller size because they are easier to position exactly where they need to be.
I'm running about 98% success this season using this method.


Reference: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?278763-Push-in-queen-induction-cage


Adam
http://vpqueenbees.com


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

There are many ways to do it. See Harry Vanderpool's recent thread on queen introduction. 

I agree with push-in cages, I use Dr. Harry Laidlaw's design, pushed in over flat comb 50% to 70% capped brood, some pollen, some honey if I can find it. Like Harry Vanderpool, I leave them alone for 10 days, then release her IF SHE HAS BEEN ACCEPTED, NOT SOONER. My push-in Laidlaw cages are larger than most (5" x 7") so starvation is not a problem.

Professor Laidlaw made a queen introduction cage with a wooden rectangle made of 7/8" square wood, 5" wide x 7" long with a sheet metal strip protruding 3/8" below the bottom of the wooden rectangle, and #8 hardware cloth stapled on top. It has no candy release tube.


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## NSBee (Dec 20, 2014)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

hi I am brand new to beekeeping , but i was just watched michael palmers video on sustainable beekeeping . In it he has a queen excluder nailed to a deep box with the top 3 inches of the deep lined with duct tape . he shakes his bees into it before putting them into his cell builder to catch any errant queens . would the same thing work for you . if you nailed a queen excluder to a deep and shook the frames from the hive into it that would allow you to catch the existing queen and separate her . then you would have a queen-less colony and they should accept your new queen .

justr a though and like i say I have 0 experience so take it for what iis worth .


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

I came home early, they had eaten about half the candy and where still trying to sting her, so I took 4 frames from another queenless hive and made a nuc. Waited an hour and put the cage in with them. They were happy to see her. I think she has a lot better chance now. Glad I decided to move her. I looked in the box again, still can't find a queen, but I'm betting there is a virgin in there somewhere....

This was a plastic cage with no cork, no good way to put it back on, thou I will certainly try installing them without opening the candy first next time. Come back in a day or two and see how they are acting. There was plenty of open brood in the original box. No open brood in the new nuc.

I have not heard the don't use open broad comment before. That's interesting. I've always read to use open broad to hold the bees and usually, without open brood, my nucs get abandoned before the queen can be released. I've had entire frames of capped brood left in the nuc by itself by the next day. That said, these girls are locked up, good ventilation but they can't leave. I'll open it tomorrow morning. I'm hoping the smell of the queen, and the confinement, will get most of them to stay. I can tell you they were doing the happy dance...


She was 200 dollars plus shipping. Well mated because she was used this year for grafting and selling queens. She was open mated, not artificially inseminated, but has the traits I want from my state, and was a proven production queen.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

Welcome to Beesource, NSBee. Excellent thing to bring up - Add the frame with the expensive breeder queen under the push-in cage to the box, THEN shake the bees through the excluder box into the nuc. Put a feeder on it, and a patty. Like Adam says, no open brood.

Robbin - Good move! Now, leave them alone for at least a week. You could be grafting from her in little more than a week, so if you are using a cell finisher colony, start looking for capped brood to prime it. Good luck to you!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



beestudent said:


> doesn't this say shes dead? if not, i am sorry for misinterpreting it.


Oh sorry, I thought you meant the breeder from the original post... thanks for the condolences!


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



kilocharlie said:


> Welcome to Beesource, NSBee. Excellent thing to bring up - Add the frame with the expensive breeder queen under the push-in cage to the box, THEN shake the bees through the excluder box into the nuc. Put a feeder on it, and a patty. Like Adam says, no open brood.
> 
> Robbin - Good move! Now, leave them alone for at least a week. You could be grafting from her in little more than a week, so if you are using a cell finisher colony, start looking for capped brood to prime it. Good luck to you!



Yep, it's going to be a long week waiting to open it up and check, I'll probably wait 10 days, that will take me into the next weekend. I'll be a good boy unless I suspect robing which is bad this time of year. I've lost two nucs in the last two weeks. This nuc has a disc, so you can dial up exactly how much you want the entrance to be. I'm going for one bee width....
Got my fingers and toes crossed.

Thanks everybody for the suggestions.


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

This worked for me this past weekend as I split and requeened 6 hives. I had a couple hives after 1 hour of being queen less very defensive towards caged queen (mated). I took a empty hive body put all the frames and attached bees in new box and let it sit 15 minutes. Swapped it with original hive body. When I put queen and cage in they weren't trying to sting her. I felt a lot better about leaving her . Of course won't know outcome till the 10 days are up. Good luck


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



Robbin said:


> She was 200 dollars plus shipping.


Yikes!


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



thehackleguy said:


> Yikes!


Now you know why I was so concerned...


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

I have a good acquaintance who raises multi-hundred lots of queens, and taught university-level beekeeping courses. He has just purchased two VP-supplied instrumentally inseminated breeder queens; and was singing the blues about introduction of these gems when I was chatting him up this week.

His take on the II queens is that they are very hard to introduce. Furthermore, and importantly, his observation is that supersedure is a continuing issue with II queens. He says he must inspect the II queens every four days to destroy cells -- constantly-- over the life of the queen.

He says the supersedure issue is the dirty little secret of the II queens based on his decade of working with them. He doesn't have an explanation, just the observation made on scores of breeders.

It could be some pheromone issue or mechanical damage from the II. 

Potentially a husbandry issue, as the intervention to control supersedure, and the smaller colony size to aid monitoring might represent a negative feedback loop.

Or the value of the breeder's eggs is such that grafting pulls too much comb that has been marked by the queen's footprint pheromone.

Anyone else seeing excess supersedure in II queens?


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

Sorry for this ignorant question but I simply have to ask it.

What is the advantage of "breeder" Queens that makes it worth the cost? Once bred their genes are diluted out and it seems the risk of Supercedure is huge.
Do they produce offspring that lead hives that are that much more productive, that much gentler, that swarm that much less and over winter better than anything you can raise from your own stock?

Does saying you have raised your Queens from a breeder Queen enable you to sell your home bred Queens for so much more that it offsets the cost?

Also who are reliable sources for these "breeder" Queens?

Thanks


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

II breeders produce F1 hybrids from known crosses: a common one is VSH x Italian -- this preserves the VSH trait while contributing the vigor and productivity of highly selected Italians. Pure VSH has issues commercially and in the hobby apiaries.

Every single egg in a II breeder is a potential queen with a known, select and predictable lineage. A breeder will be grafted out into hundreds upon hundreds of F1 daughter queens. The market pays for this care and effort.

An open mated breeder is only as good and reliable as the effort that has gone into establishing an isolated drone yard. I have driven hundreds of miles to inspect and secure queens in the chaotic period after Glenn retired. I discovered despite glossy websites and extravagant claims that some "VSH Survivor" queen producers were pure shams -- flea bitten apiaries in the corner of trash-filled yards or repackagers of unknown stock. Know your queen producer before you buy, there are con men in every profession.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

My first Pol Line from VP was gone in about 5 weeks, didn't even get a chance to save her, just found her gone and a supercedure cell ready to go. I overwintered 2 last year, got them in September or so, they're still kicking, double deeps or so. I find introducing them with a push in to be a PITA. I lost my new Harbo queen under a push in after she started laying, I was lucky to get a replacement, used a standard introduction, out and about in 2 days, 100% less stress, no hassle, so I don't get why they're hard to introduce, never had issues, even the first pol line I had, the bees chewed through the wax overnight and accepted her anyways. I hear longevity is an issue, keep them in nucs but I haven't had the time to manage them like that, I'm just letting them build up.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



WBVC said:


> Sorry for this ignorant question but I simply have to ask it.
> 
> What is the advantage of "breeder" Queens that makes it worth the cost? Once bred their genes are diluted out and it seems the risk of Supercedure is huge.
> Do they produce offspring that lead hives that are that much more productive, that much gentler, that swarm that much less and over winter better than anything you can raise from your own stock?
> ...


I bought mine to raise my own queens with, not to sell, or claim anything. I bought her because she was a breeder queen, from a production hive, that exhibited the traits I was looking for. Mine was not artificially inseminated. The advantage of artificially insemination is you control both sides of the genetics, the disadvantage is she is unproven. I spend more than 200 bucks a year on queens, some are good, some not so good. Some get superseded right away, so I decided to grow my own. Instead of hop scotching around my small number of hives picking and choosing the best traits, I decided to buy one that someone else had invested a lot of time, money and reputation into growing and selecting. I only control half the genetics anyway. My seller, does not raise and sell breeder queens, he selects breeders from his yards and sells their daughters. Based on his track record, and the traits of his queens, I asked if I could buy one of this years breeders at the end of the season. We agreed on a price and she's mine. The only reason anybody even knows about this was my introduction problem. I did this solely for my benefit, I think she's worth it or I wouldn't have paid for her. That said, I could have ordered one of his queens and probably got a very good queen to start with. I choose not to and went straight to the queen with the proven hive and queen production record. I'm going to save time and effort knowing exactly where/who I'm going to graft from, and I think I'm going to get the results I'm looking for. I won't know that till I've raised several batches of her daughters to run my hives. I'm excited about the prospects.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



JWChesnut said:


> He says the supersedure issue is the dirty little secret of the II queens based on his decade of working with them. He doesn't have an explanation, just the observation made on scores of breeders.
> 
> 
> Anyone else seeing excess supersedure in II queens?


Not sure I believe the above is completely true. Yes, at times you can run into supercedure issues, but when I see this I report this back to the breeder. I believe that breeders would provide some accommodation in cases like these, but every breeder has their own policies, so check before you purchase. This, at least to me, is a sign that something is not right with this queen. Does it happen more with II queens? I think it does (for sure). But that doesn't mean that EVERY II queen will be constantly being superseded. 

I just inseminated 15 last night and introduced them today just like I would any other mated queen. You can almost immediately see if they are good based upon how the bees respond. I had one today that they kind of ignored, so I don't have much hope that she'll make it. All the others the bees were loving.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



JWChesnut said:


> II breeders produce F1 hybrids from known crosses: a common one is VSH x Italian -- this preserves the VSH trait while contributing the vigor and productivity of highly selected Italians. Pure VSH has issues commercially and in the hobby apiaries.
> 
> Every single egg in a II breeder is a potential queen with a known, select and predictable lineage. A breeder will be grafted out into hundreds upon hundreds of F1 daughter queens. The market pays for this care and effort.
> 
> An open mated breeder is only as good and reliable as the effort that has gone into establishing an isolated drone yard. I have driven hundreds of miles to inspect and secure queens in the chaotic period after Glenn retired. I discovered despite glossy websites and extravagant claims that some "VSH Survivor" queen producers were pure shams -- flea bitten apiaries in the corner of trash-filled yards or repackagers of unknown stock. Know your queen producer before you buy, there are con men in every profession.


So...who are some known reliable "breeder" Queen suppliers. At the moment I am simply curious but over time I hope to get better at Queen breeding. If I am going to continue when past the "how to" stage it would be best to produce the best I can.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

I was surprised to hear that supersedure was a common problem for II queens. I bought a VSH breeder from Harbo last spring, and she has been trucking along just fine.
I introduced her using the standard introduction cage in a hive made with several solid frames of emerging brood and a few frames of honey, ran her in a double deep (kept below an excluder) all summer, and then in the fall I put her in 5 frame equipment (5 over 5 over 5) and she overwintered. Now that I have said that she will probably poop out! She was $250. When you think about it that is pretty cheap for a queen with known genetics. If you were purchasing F1 offspring you could only get 10 for $250.
http://www.harbobeeco.com/breeder-queens/


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## bendriftin (Nov 1, 2010)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

So I am curious, do II queens that have been super mated have the same supercedure problem. Say I wanted a VSHxMinnesota hygenic, and the breeder selected 20 drone from different MN colonies would there still be a problem. Bees thrive on diversity that is why they naturally mate with so many drones so even though the drones would be all MN hygenic they would be offering some different genectic variation.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

Ben - good question, waiting.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

Raise your own queens from survivor stock and all this "how to introduce II queens" stuff goes away.
I can't pay $35 for a queen bee. How much is one of these II's again? 

IF I had OP's dilemma I would make a queen builder (lots of nurse bees)
and introduce the II into it using one of the cage methods described in this thread.


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



aunt betty said:


> Raise your own queens from survivor stock and all this "how to introduce II queens" stuff goes away.
> I can't pay $35 for a queen bee. How much is one of these II's again?
> 
> IF I had OP's dilemma I would make a queen builder (lots of nurse bees)
> and introduce the II into it using one of the cage methods described in this thread.


 He said she was open mated . BUT she has a proven track record , which is why he wanted her . All my queens are daughters or granddaughters of a first-generation queen from a bought breeder queen . Or so I was told by the breeder . He lives close , and has been breeding VSH/hygienic (untreated) for quite a while so my open mated queens stand a good chance of having his genetics too .


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

I will cloud the waters a little... IF you are going to use push in cages, try and cover a little uncapped honey too. It goes a long way towards survival. That being said, I do not like or use push in cages, but they were well used by a bee lab technician I followed around as a kid.

A small nuc made up with a frame or two of brood and bees and a frame of honey work well for introducing any queen. I don't worry about the age of the brood... Feed a little if no nectar is coming in.

I put the cage in 4-5 days, then a ball of candy and walk away. IF the queens are properly raised, inseminated and cared for most will do well and head a full sized colony and produce a crop of honey in a full sized colony. Some die, it just happens...

Many beekeepers are surprised by the performance of a good II queen. Many years ago, I sold some II queens to a 2500 colony or so operation. The beekeeper grafted from them and then put them out for honey production. Both he and I were surprised when the II queens outproduced everything in his operation that year. It shouldn't be that dramatic but everyone starts somewhere.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

Well I lost her. I looked last night. She was a big pretty queen that was marked. No way I missed her in a 4 frame nuc... I won't risk that much money on a queen again. 
I can't remember the last time I had a queen rejected, and of course the one they reject is the only breeder queen I've ever bought.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



Robbin said:


> Well I lost her


Bummer! Sorry for the loss......both in losing a potential great queen and the financial loss.....


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## Buzzlightyear (Dec 4, 2013)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

Why not use a large push in cage. Trap her on emerging brood with some space to lay for a while. Sorry for your losses.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



Robbin said:


> Well I lost her. I looked last night. She was a big pretty queen that was marked. No way I missed her in a 4 frame nuc... I won't risk that much money on a queen again.
> I can't remember the last time I had a queen rejected, and of course the one they reject is the only breeder queen I've ever bought.


Please don't give up. I'm really sorry for your loss. Have heard such good things about breeder queens.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



Buzzlightyear said:


> Why not use a large push in cage. Trap her on emerging brood with some space to lay for a while. Sorry for your losses.


I ordered a push in cage so I'll have one in the future. I think they are more trouble than they are worth, right up until you have a queen you REALLY don't want to get killed.
If I do it again, I'll use a push in cage and get the bees into the box by running them thru an excluder and that will allow me to examine each frame with no bees on it for open brood and queen cells. Not sure any of that would have made a difference. There was no open brood or cells in this nuc. Always possible there was a virgin, don't know that an excluder would stop that, I've seen some pretty small virgins. I'm broken hearted right now.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



Robbin said:


> Well I lost her. I looked last night. She was a big pretty queen that was marked. No way I missed her in a 4 frame nuc... I won't risk that much money on a queen again.
> I can't remember the last time I had a queen rejected, and of course the one they reject is the only breeder queen I've ever bought.


As others have suggested, don't give up. Things happen, shake it off and move on. You had problems with the first attempt that may have injured her, or there may have been other unseen things that resulted in the death. Queens get rejected - it happens, just a shame it cost you so much. 

BTW, never spray HBH directly on a queen. If you use the product, do the opposite, that is, spray the bees and not the queen.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



JWChesnut said:


> I have a good acquaintance who raises multi-hundred lots of queens, and taught university-level beekeeping courses. He has just purchased two VP-supplied instrumentally inseminated breeder queens; and was singing the blues about introduction of these gems when I was chatting him up this week.



I haven't heard about this: maybe, if he wants, he should contact us--we would certainly see if we could help him out.





JWChesnut said:


> His take on the II queens is that they are very hard to introduce. Furthermore, and importantly, his observation is that supersedure is a continuing issue with II queens. He says he must inspect the II queens every four days to destroy cells -- constantly-- over the life of the queen.
> 
> He says the supersedure issue is the dirty little secret of the II queens based on his decade of working with them. He doesn't have an explanation, just the observation made on scores of breeders.
> 
> ...



The initial colony environment of the AI queen is extremely important for the AI queen's success. If she isn't being fed properly or cared for, she'll not give off her full pheromonal potential and the surrounding bees will try to supersede her. Some of the AI instruments use specific parts that could, indeed damage the queen, Overall, most AI queens, if they are made properly and introduced properly, should do well for the purchaser.

I'd recommend to your friend that adding frames of emerging brood helps get the ratio of young nurse bees to older bees back in the breeder queen's favor; more young nurse bees to care for her.

I've used push-in cages and candy release cages. I have had way more success with push-in cages. Possibly, using push-in cages seems more difficult because one might have to handle single nurse bees to add to the push-in cage? Who knows. 

Adam
http://vpqueenbees.com


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

I take the original cage, open the escape/entry port, push it into the comb, then put the push in over it... queen walks out with her attendants when she feels like it, easy enough, but makes seating the push in a little harder since it needs to be larger.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

For research projects I used to use a lot of SDI (Single Drone Inseminated) queens. They were always a challenge to get introduced as the bees did not really care for them. To makes up nucs that accepted SDI queens well, I would pick out strong colonies in the morning, take along an extra deep, excluder, and frames for each nuc I wanted to make up. Pick out 2 frames of brood, 1 emerging, and the other a mix of ages (open brood will help stabilize the nuc). Two frames of honey/pollen. Shake the bees off the 4 frames into the original colony. Place the 4 shaken frames into the deep, with 1 empty you brought along. Put the 4 empty frames you brought along into the original colony. Put the queen excluder over the original colony and place the deep box with the 2 frames or brood, 2 frames honey/pollen and 1 empty frame on top. Put the lid on and come back in a few hours. The 5 frames in the top box will be covered with bees and no queen, if you have good excluders...

Pull those 5 frames and place in your nuc box. I then moved the new nuc to a location in the same yard. This would allow the field bees to drift off. It was a bit of work, but yielded a high rate of success with those precious SDI queens. I often hand released the queens or used a regular introduction cage.

If robbing is an issue, reduce the entrance as the nuc is primarily young bees.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*

I run 6 to 8 II breeder queens each year. I run them in double deeps with an excluder and honey super above. I pull capped brood out of them each week to add to my cell builders and most make a super of honey. I have had a cpl over the years that the bees were continually building supercedure cells even though I felt like they were laying well. Must have been a pheromone thing.

Johnny


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



JSL said:


> ... To makes up nucs that accepted SDI queens well, I would pick out strong colonies in the morning, take along an extra deep, excluder, and frames for each nuc I wanted to make up. Pick out 2 frames of brood, 1 emerging, and the other a mix of ages (open brood will help stabilize the nuc). Two frames of honey/pollen. Shake the bees off the 4 frames into the original colony. Place the 4 shaken frames into the deep, with 1 empty you brought along. Put the 4 empty frames you brought along into the original colony. Put the queen excluder over the original colony and place the deep box with the 2 frames or brood, 2 frames honey/pollen and 1 empty frame on top. Put the lid on and come back in a few hours. The 5 frames in the top box will be covered with bees and no queen, if you have good excluders...
> 
> Pull those 5 frames and place in your nuc box. I then moved the new nuc to a location in the same yard. This would allow the field bees to drift off. It was a bit of work, but yielded a high rate of success with those precious SDI queens. I often hand released the queens or used a regular introduction cage...


Thank you, Joe. That should really simplify my nuc operation while elliminating any virgin queen oopsies. Great timing, too - I'm making up some tomorrow.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

*Re: Help with Expenisve Breeder queen introduction problem*



bendriftin said:


> So I am curious, do II queens that have been super mated have the same supercedure problem. Say I wanted a VSHxMinnesota hygenic, and the breeder selected 20 drone from different MN colonies would there still be a problem. Bees thrive on diversity that is why they naturally mate with so many drones so even though the drones would be all MN hygenic they would be offering some different genectic variation.


The problems with I.I. are often due to the scheduling. Shipping the virgin queens and the intended drones (usually about 50 of them per queen), along with attendant workers and a good supply of candy should be done via express / priority mail. See Laidlaw's Contemporary Queen Rearing for a photo of a shipping cage. You'd be wise to know the flight times if sending by air mail. A dry run is advised, to check timing.

The lab has to be ready for your shipment. Call and arrange a shipping date.

If buying an I.I. queen done by a breeder, this timing problem should be largely elliminated, but still the method does not produce the same result as naturally mated queens. Dr. Sue Cobey suggests that the genetic superiority of I.I. queens may be masking many of the problems arising from deficiencies of method, but that I.I. queens are often superior performers anyways.

Even F2 or supercedure queens have some of the genetics that you are trying to get, and introducing them to your yard is not a bad thing, especially if you raise excellent drones in good numbers. Down the road a year or two, you may have a few excellent naturally-mated queens that are descendants of the I.I. stock.

The situation is even better if you are doing I.I. for your own stock. You can observe and keep track which queens go out and mate after I.I. While these are not entirely controlled matings, they often make excellent queens, too.

There are problems at times, as JW has posted, so the lesson is to get busy and graft from your I.I. breeder as soon as you have larvae from her, before she gets superceded. Do make many of them so you will have plenty of F2 stock from your I.I. F1 queen. And, as JW stated, keep a watchful eye for supercedure queen cells (place them in nuc's!).

And of course, as your apiary's population comes up, go ahead and aggressively de-sellect low-performing drones and queens from your breeding program. This, combined with the introduction of excellent stock, is where you make leaps and bounds in the performance of your bloodlines.

Twenty drones per queen should be considered a minimum for Instrumental Insemination. If the time and skilled labor is available, 50 drones per queen is better. Semen / sperm can be allowed to mix naturally at room temperature for 1 to 2 days, or placed in a centrifuge and mechanically mixed (keep it below 20 g's) to save time. It can be kept refrigerated for up to a year, giving a great advantage of inseminating highly-desirable queens with excellent drone stock when there are no drones available for natural mating.


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