# Why Plastic foundation? Also Foundationless



## Gus979 (Oct 11, 2012)

Hello

Sorry to spark up an old debate, but I don't feel like I fully understand purchase options. Next year I hope to be keeping to beehives in april and I live in wisconsin.

There are many advantages in going foundationless, being lazy and not having to pay for foundation are two that appeal greatly to me. From what I have researched, Foundation is only a slightly faster build up than foundationless.

I think that plastic foundation is "catching up" however. Manufacturers such as mann lake recognize the movement among beekeepers of utilization of small cell and how it reduces pest issues. Ultimately, plastic is more expensive because, well, you don't buy foundationless.

I would like to hear the opinions of people who utilize small cell foundation- What advantages does it provide over foundationless?

Side story. I was hunting pheasant up north the other week and noticed three double deep beehives sitting on the edge of the field- next to a small vineyard. I had never been around bee hives or honey bees before, despite reading and already making up my mind about acquiring a hive or two.
I approached cautiously, despite my confidence from what I read, for all I knew honey bees were deadly and disliked people. On approaching the hives I noticed one of the bees floundering on the grass some 15 feet away from the hives. My heart beat faster, and in some part of my mind I wished that I was wearing a veil, the imagined sound of buzzing made me flinch slightly.
When I looked at it however, I simply felt sad. It reminded me of the bumble bees I saw as a child in my mothers garden. The bulbous eyes and non-aggressive look of the struggling insect immediately dispelled any thought in my mind about their aggressive nature. Despite knowing that this bee was likely meant to die I reached out and tried, unsuccessfully, to lift it and bring it closer to the hive. I gave up quickly, however, knowing I shouldn't interfere, and could likely be making matters worse if the bee was out of the hive on purpose, so I left it out to the cold winter elements.
Upon reaching the three hives I was stunned. They simply did not look like anything I had seen on the internet. The first one on the left had a large gash in its middle. I could see some bees trying to guard this entrance unsuccessfully, there was simply too much hole for them to make any successfully attempt. On top of that I knew that the hole would probably be disastrous when the snow came.
The second hive didn't appear much better to me. There were elder beetles and a few other insects crawling on the outside of the hive, and I couldn't see any presence of honey bees, even guards at the entrance. The third beehive didn't seem any better to me. A complete absence of life surrounded it.
After the hunt I returned to the owners and informed them of the large gash in the side of the hive. Hopefully something was done to fix the situation. Despite the odd first impression I had of honey bees, what I saw made me want to keep a few hives even more than before.

All in all an electric experience for me, I'd only read or seen youtube videos about honeybees, finally seeing them was altogether different for me.

Thats my beekeeping experience so far.


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

Gus979 just because you give bees foundationless frames does not mean that they will draw out small cell combs. If they are large cell bees they will probably draw them at 5.1 as the smallest. They also do not always draw out foundation quicker than foundationless. If you decide to go foundationless, which is a good way to go. You will still need either already drawn out frames, from starting with a nuc, or some empty comb or foundation of some sort, to get the bees started out right. Or else you might get a super of cross comb.


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## juzzerbee (Apr 17, 2012)

Gus- Fellow Cheesehead here from Wisconsin. I am not quite sure what small cell foundation is and how it differs from plastic foundation. I started beekeeping this past Spring and chose to use plastic foundation in my 2 hives. I thought about the cost as well, but figured at a buck a piece it was a good choice since I was probably going to fumble a bit while moving my frames and thought that it would hold up a bit more my first year than foundationless. My bees drew it out very well and quickly. I even had sheets of white and yellow foundation, I was curious if color would matter. It didn't. Living where I do(Watertown), I am able to go to Dadant's(Watertown) and Lapp's(Reeseville) to ask some questions and actually look at the products before deciding which to purchase, which as a Newbee, was really to my benefit. juzzerbee


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## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

As a newbee I choose plastic because it was less work and you didn't have to add foundation to wooden frames. Also Peirco frames have 10% more surface area then wooden. That being said I don't think my bees really like it and next year will likely mix plastic is with foundationless. It'll be less work to make combed honey out of and I think the bees don't really like plastic.


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## rwilly (Apr 6, 2012)

As a newbee, first year having bees, I would say go with foundation for extracting ease. I know you can go crush and strain method with foundationless, but with plastic foundation you can spin it for extraction and the bees will have a head start on building new comb when you put the frames back in the hive?


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

You can also extract foundationless, it works.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Gus,
Sounds like you had a good and not so good experience with the bees.
You actually took the time to inform the landowner of the deficientcy with the hives, which is a wonderful thing.
I have noticed that some beekkepers get complacent when it comes to the woodenware. I can't tell you how many times I've seen neglected and just plain worn out hive bodies still in service.
I use plastic foundation for all my honey supers, but I do use a combination of foundationless and plastic foundation in the brood chambers. Installing every other frame from foundationless then plastic foundation alleviates a lot of comb problems and make the plastic foundation go further.


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## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

From my limited run from July, using w. Kelley foundationless and grooved top/bottom with 1/8" plywood guide, I got wonderful results from frames that were between built out plastic. However when I put a foundationless between two new plastic foundation frames the results were mixed and occasionally strange. I had very thick comb that would extend all the way to the surface of the plastic foundation next frame. I also ended up with tunnels under the comb to the surface of the plastic foundation. The bees seem to like it, I am just confused with what they are doing, and it gets messy lifting the frames for inspection.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

I've started swarms on all foundation less without any problems and they drew out the frames very quickly as well. IMO, the problem does arise when you place foundation less between undrawn plastic, this I have experienced also! 

I do run plastic foundation in my honey supers though, just for a little more reassurance against blow outs, but did make one super of foundation less frames to see how that will work next year as they didn't draw it out this year. I do like foundation less though and haven't had a problem with transport or heat.........yet!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I didn't like plastic frames before, just working with them felt odd. They flex a little and have the tendency to get bridge combed to the top of the frames below. As I've gotten use to working with them though, I'm finding them to be better in terms of workablility. Easier to pick up, lighter than wood frames, and fit together better. I do like the feel of wood better though and my bees do not draw plastic out very well so I'm phasing them out anyway. Gus, lazy and foundationless don't go together if your bees build wonky comb, it's actually more work. If you can get them to draw them nice and straight on the first pass, then you're ok. Personally, I like foundation because it fascinates me how the bees will cut it down and work it before drawing it sometimes, it's a fun process to watch. Trying some ML small cell foundation, so far the bees like it and they transitioned to it from pf100's very quickly. Got 6 frames drawn out late September in a week with no flow while some of the pf100's were still untouched after 2 months.


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## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

Another reason I want to have some foundationless is so I can do some cut comb. The Ross Rounds look interesting, but a bit pricy for the setup for me right now.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Plastic usually stays flatter, it's easier to handle, and the plastic frames are lighter.

Foundationless is the new fad, and it has it's place, but it's more work in most cases than using foundation and the bees will make a mess if you don't get it set up right. Some bees make a mess with foundation, too, but it's worse with foundationless. Certainly you should expect to get it all drawn in the spring, they will leave frames partially drawn in the fall and fill in around what' there with bridge comb, and in the fall it will often be full of honey and messy to fix.

My advice is to do whatever you feel you want to, just don't be afraid to change when and if things don't work out correctly. A friend of mine was all hot on foundationless, but ended up getting some foundation from be because his bees refused to build comb in the frames until he did. Don't wait until you have a mess where you can't remove frames before you fix it!

You can also buy thin surplus foundation for comb honey -- it's very thin and has no wires, and fits shallow frames.

Peter


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## juzzerbee (Apr 17, 2012)

Gus- I did a bit of searching and discovered the idea behind small cell foundation. I have read that the main reason is because it is closer in size to that of natural cell size. Whereas, foundation(plastic??) seems to be the largest cell size of all. Having the small cell size is thought(or maybe proven) to reduce the number of varroa mites in the cells. It gave the mites less room to fit in, and because the cell is smaller, required less time for the bees to cap the cells. This shorter time that it took to cap the cell means that there is less time for the mites to infest into the cells with the drone. Is this the reason you wanted to possibly go with small cell foundation? If anyone reading this finds the information incorrect, please correct me, I am not 100% sure of my understanding of small cell knowledge and do not want Gus to be steered in the wrong direction.juzzerbee

Michael Bush-Once again your knowledge has served me well. I just hope I have understood and explained it correctly


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

There is a lot of discussion on the issue of "small cell" bees. A point that is often overlooked is that when foundation was "invented" (developed would be a better word) in Europe, one of the people advocating it's use was convinced that larger bees made more honey because they could fly further and carry more nectar. I don't believe this was experimentally verified, which would have been a rather large undertaking, but the idea of larger than typical foundation got tangled up in the notion of using foundation, and the result was 5.4mm cell size becoming the norm.

Even back then (the 1910s I believe) typical beehives on foundationless frames (the only type of beehives around then) had cells sizes much closer to 5.1mm. 

I don't believe anyone has produced solid science showing that small cell hives have significantly lower numbers of varroa mites, but it seems to work for some people and it won't hurt.

Like everything about living organisms, the issue is a bit murky and there is lots of variation between hives, so it's hard to tell. You won't hurt your bees by going foundationless or small cell, but you might also not gain much above not doing so.

Peter


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Lots of rationalization for every direction. We went all plastic for a simple reason. I can't be bothered to spend hours nailing and stringing frames. I open a box of pf500 or pf520 and put them in the hive. Job done. Costs me a buck a frame more than buying the bits, money well spent. Our bees built just as much comb as folks up the road that started on foundation the same time we did.


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## bbrowncods (Oct 10, 2012)

Is there a difference between "brands" of plastic? I am assuming if you are using plastic that they be used 100% until drawn out. After that you can start feathering in foundationless?


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## bbrowncods (Oct 10, 2012)

Sorry, I resubmitted my previous post somehow. Building my post count.


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## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

grozzie2 said:


> Lots of rationalization for every direction. We went all plastic for a simple reason. I can't be bothered to spend hours nailing and stringing frames. I open a box of pf500 or pf520 and put them in the hive. Job done. Costs me a buck a frame more than buying the bits, money well spent. Our bees built just as much comb as folks up the road that started on foundation the same time we did.


Just curious as I went to their web site and did not see the cell size stated for the PF500 & 520. The PF 120 & 100 are stated as 4.9.
Thanks for your time.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Foundation is only a slightly faster build up than foundationless.

Actually it is slower than foundation. Noticably slower.

>I would like to hear the opinions of people who utilize small cell foundation- What advantages does it provide over foundationless?

It is a bit more reliable at getting regression quickly.

>Just curious as I went to their web site and did not see the cell size stated for the PF500 & 520. The PF 120 & 100 are stated as 4.9.

Last I measured it it was 5.4mm

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm


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## pedrocr (Jun 5, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> > Foundation is only a slightly faster build up than foundationless.
> 
> Actually it is slower than foundation. Noticably slower.


Don't you mean the opposite here? That foundation is slower than foundationless?

From your own page:

"Using foundation sets them back in many ways. First they draw foundation more slowly."


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Gus979 said:


> There are many advantages in going foundationless, being lazy and not having to pay for foundation are two that appeal greatly to me.


I jumped back into beekeeping this past spring. Having kept bees in the past, being aware of time requirements, cost, and issues with foundation, I made a decision to not use it. It is not for the lazy though, it takes effort to build a good foundationless frame that will survive an extractor, and they must be placed in the brood chamber and checked often for good worker cells, or moved up for honey production.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

The bees will be fine whether you go foundationless, small cell, all plastic, or grooved wooden frames with plastic insert foundation (like Rite-Cell from Mannlake). I chose the latter.

The all plastic frames are heavy and harbor small hive beetle in their edges (something in abundance here in Texas) -I don't like that. Years ago, I had pure wax foundation droop in the heat and it resulted in a mess so I went away form that in the 1970's. Foundationless frames are not fastened at the bottom & ends of the the frame this time around, that makes it more tricky to inspect -I put up with it because I plan to cut some comb for queen mating NUCs. 

Nailing a frame and inserting the plastic foundation takes a couple minutes per frame -I don't mind that, in fact I enjoy it. If you buy anything plastic, be SURE it is wax coated, the bees won't work it without the coating (in my experience).


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## olympic (Aug 20, 2006)

Where can I buy 5,1mm plastic foundation?


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## Gus979 (Oct 11, 2012)

I believe that the mann lake rite cell are 5.1mm. Source? I asked their online chat rep because oddly enough their plastic frame plastic standard foundation is 4.9 but nothing else seems to be.

Thanks for all the opinions on this subject everyone!


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I believe Mann Lake Rite Cell is 5.4, not 5.1. As far as I know nobody sells 5.1 in any type of plastic frame or foundation, however I think Dadant sells wax foundation in 4.9 and 5.1. John


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

Olympic, why do you want 5.1?


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

When I studying for bees, my understanding was that in natural environment, varroa mites prefer to feast on drones in their large cells. When honey bees were artificially "enlarged", it confuses varroa and our problems began - varroa attacked worker bees. Thus, the idea behind smaller cells is to return to original _status quo _when mites dine mostly on drones. I really do not know how much truth in this. Speaking about foundation vs foundationless, there are bunch of factors to consider:
- there is believe that foundation with uniform cell size prevent from excessive drone's cells creation. Some beekeepers believe that it is beneficial to ... who? bees? In the same line - it is believed that foundationless approach stimulates drone's cells formation and thus bad... or good for other beekeepers.
- in my opinion the advantage of the foundationless is that bees could create cells whichever they needed, it is more "natural" way.
- many think that, the major advantage of the foundation is that honey may be extracted from the comb and honeycomb reused to accelerate honey production. Having extra frames of drawn comb (extracted) is considered to be an advantage. Note that it is proven by many research studies that chemicals used for bee treatment as well as other pesticides have a tendency to accumulate in the wax especially in recycled drawn comb - search Internet for details.
- you probably noticed already, that many beekeepers obsessed with that honeycomb must be straight - it is essential for mechanical honey extraction (centrifuge). So, you expected to follow tradition and use mechanical extractor. If you do not use extractor, than straight comb is not such critical.
- as many already pointed out, foundationless is not less work, it require more attention and sometime messy corrections, which upset bees!

On the personal note - my two beehives allowed are foundationless and I am very happy with my bees. I do crush-and-strain honey - it is very simple, natural and does not require expensive equipment. My observation is that girls (bees) made perfect straight comb without any foundation. If comb stays in the hive for long period of time, girls start do renovation - they created cross-comb etc. As long as "mess" is in the super (honey compartment), I personally do not care - I will crush comb anyway. The brood part of the beehive is another story. Being completely foundationless, I would probably recommend for beginner to start from nuc with foundation - somebody suggested the same above. Once nuc established, you could start adding foundationless frames if you desire is to be foundationless. My bees never saw foundation. Nevertheless, the average cell size is 5.1 mm. It is never smaller than 5.0 mm. Barry, the moderator also suggested 5.0-5.1 mm average.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Don't you mean the opposite here? That foundation is slower than foundationless?

Yes. Sorry, brain f*rt, lost the "less".


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> >Don't you mean the opposite here? That foundation is slower than foundationless?
> 
> Yes. Sorry, brain f*rt, lost the "less".



i saw this for myself this year. in hives that were given both foundation and foundationless frames, the bees started working the foundationless earlier in the season, and finished them way before the foundation frames.


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## Gus979 (Oct 11, 2012)

I was curious about mann lake and their cell sizes so I sent an email. The reponse was it is 5.1mm-5.4 mm. Also- Interesting link about the effectiveness of small cell http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=676


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Gus979 said:


> ...snip... Interesting link about the effectiveness of small cell....


Seems like the science is unequivocal. Thanks for the link to an excellent article!


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## ScubaMark (Jan 6, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >Don't you mean the opposite here? That foundation is slower than foundationless?
> 
> Yes. Sorry, brain f*rt, lost the "less".


Michael, I have almost exclusively foundation-less frames and have noticed that they will build out foundation-less faster anytime comb building is occurring, with one notable exception. When I have put a frame of foundation in a nucleus where the queen is limited in the available laying area, she will lay right on the foundation and the bees will draw that sucker out like lighting to stay ahead of the growing brood. If I were starting a hive from a swarm or a package, I would probably put in a frame or two of foundation if I didn't have some drawn comb. Otherwise, I have found I get comb quicker without foundation. Have you noticed that exception as well?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Maybe it depends on how deep the cells are pressed and the queen's preferences. In my experience the queen usually doesn't lay in it until it's about 1/4" deep or so.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

i have been keeping bees now for 5 winters.all are foundation-less in the deeps "brood chamber" one thing that i have noticed is the the accessibility for the bees to go from frame to frame with out having to go either up or down.good for wintering over and moving food to the center also i never had to insulate them for the winter -15 degrees for 2 week periods.I do keep all plastic frames for my honey suppers tho. ease of extracting purposes I remove them for the winter only the only down side of foundation-less that i have found is when the spring comes is taking the frames out to make splits sometimes the comb falls apart or sticks to the other comb and it difficult to get them out.I can live with that since it seems that the bees are healthy i have never treated them for anything.currently today i have 13 hives two of which are overwintered observation hives all foundation-less they both swarmed this year successfully caught them and also made a split from one by taking the outside frame with the queen shes on her second winter this year in a double deep.she has a great brood pattern.foundation or foundation-less either way works keeper preference i suppose.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Foundationless I think means a frame without foundation (with several configurations of guides or no guides). Foundation can mean all wax (surplus wax, wax, wired wax, wire supported wax, etc), wax over plastic, Plastic can mean low cell pressed or deep cell pressed, waxed (or not waxed ?) and so on. Then you can have different cell size in this mix. 

I have read this thread several times and it confuses me.

Right now I have started with 1. wax on plastic interspersed with some 2. wax with bar supports and some 3. empty frames with guides (usually tongue depressors or tapered top bars). All my frames are wood.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

mmmooretx said:


> From my limited run from July, using w. Kelley foundationless and grooved top/bottom with 1/8" plywood guide, I got wonderful results from frames that were between built out plastic. However when I put a foundationless between two new plastic foundation frames the results were mixed and occasionally strange. I had very thick comb that would extend all the way to the surface of the plastic foundation next frame. I also ended up with tunnels under the comb to the surface of the plastic foundation. The bees seem to like it, I am just confused with what they are doing, and it gets messy lifting the frames for inspection.


Yep, the bees prefer to draw the foundationless and ignor the plastic when given a choice.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

psfred said:


> Foundationless is the new fad, and it has it's place, but it's more work in most cases than using foundation and the bees will make a mess if you don't get it set up right. Some bees make a mess with foundation, too, but it's worse with foundationless. Certainly you should expect to get it all drawn in the spring, they will leave frames partially drawn in the fall and fill in around what' there with bridge comb, and in the fall it will often be full of honey and messy to fix.
> 
> Peter


Not in my experience doing foundationless for the last 10 years. And the new 'fad' goes back over 100 years.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

grozzie2 said:


> Lots of rationalization for every direction. We went all plastic for a simple reason. I can't be bothered to spend hours nailing and stringing frames. I open a box of pf500 or pf520 and put them in the hive. Job done. Costs me a buck a frame more than buying the bits, money well spent. Our bees built just as much comb as folks up the road that started on foundation the same time we did.


There is a big difference between plastic foundation and plastic drawn frames. You are talking about plastic drawn frames.


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## Joel_T (Feb 8, 2013)

Lburou said:


> Seems like the science is unequivocal.


But it's not.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Joel_T said:


> But it's not.


Maybe we shouldn't be diverting the thread to the merits (or lack of merits) of small cell bees, but what I find unfortunate about all the "definitive" studies I've seen is the relatively short time period that these experiments have covered. From what I've read, almost any sort of hive will survive for 40 weeks, which I believe was the maximum length of the replicating studies done with the Berry protocol. Isn't there an inherent and fairly obvious problem with taking a bunch of unrelated large-cell bees and dumping them on small cell foundation or plastic comb, considering that this must be a stressful situation for the bees, trying to make that adaptation and survive the mites at the same time? I would be far more interested in survival rates after, say, 2 or 3 years.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Foundationless frame beekeeping has been around from Huber's time (late 1700's) until the present with no actual gap. There has been much propaganda from the late 1800s until now on how much energy was wasted by not giving them foundation and how many less drones there would be. But it never really caught on big time until about the 1940s. All the people I know who were keeping bees in the 30's (depression times) were not buying foundation and most were not buying it before that. I would say there are more doing foundationless now than 40 years ago... but less than 100 years ago when everyone was foundationless.


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## Joel_T (Feb 8, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> There has been much propaganda from the late 1800s until now on how *much energy was wasted by not giving them foundation *and how many less drones there would be. But it never really caught on big time until about the 1940s. All the people I know who were keeping bees in the 30's (depression times) were not buying foundation and most were not buying it before that. I would say there are more doing foundationless now than 40 years ago... but less than 100 years ago when everyone was foundationless.


What energy was claimed to be wasted? I keep reading that honeybees work up comb slower on foundation than without. Have the merits of foundation been reduced to easing extraction problems and less wild comb or are there other merits for foundation?


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## sergie (Feb 20, 2012)

This question always seems to make for a great read. Its kinda like asking what pen is best; Blue, black, or red. Gel or Ink. Ballpoint or felt. Why not a pencil, wooden or mechanical? 
Read through this thread again replacing frames with pen and the different choices of each. 

My answer is simple to both frames and pen type. What ever you like as long as it works. Personally I prefer foundationless, but start a hive with plastic and rotate to foundationless and a green gel pen with a comfort grip.


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## Joel_T (Feb 8, 2013)

sergie said:


> What ever you like _as long as it works._


You qualified your answer though with "as long as it works."  I think everyone knows everything works - I just like squeezing out details of the whys and what fors of what seems to work "best."


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What energy was claimed to be wasted?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm#expenseofwax

"The opinion of experts once was that the production of beeswax in a colony required great quantities of nectar which, since it was turned into wax, would never be turned into honey. Until quite recently it was thought that bees could store seven pounds of honey for every pound of beeswax that they needed to manufacture for the construction of their combs--a figure which seems never to have been given any scientific basis, and which is in any case quite certainly wrong. The widespread view that if the combs were used over and over, through the use of the honey extractor, then the bees would be saved the trouble of building them and could convert the nectar thus saved into honey, was only minimally correct. A strong colony of bees will make almost as much comb honey as extracted honey on a strong honey flow. The advantage of the extractor, in increasing harvests, is that honey stored from minor flows, or gathered by the bees over many weeks of the summer, can easily be extracted, but comb honey cannot be easily produced under those conditions." --Richard Taylor, The Comb Honey Book.

The argument was that every pound of wax you provided the bees in the form of foundation would make another seven pounds (or sometimes 12 pounds) of honey.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> Foundationless frame beekeeping has been around from Huber's time (late 1700's) until the present with no actual gap. There has been much propaganda from the late 1800s until now on how much energy was wasted by not giving them foundation


I've wondered about this. Is there really enough wax in a sheet of wax foundation to save the bees from making a major part of the wax needed to draw out a comb? And there's hardly any wax at all in a sheet of plastic foundation.

Another thing I've wondered about is the variability of bees from hive to hive in drawing straight comb. According to many experts, some bees will draw cross comb even on foundation. My bees are drawing comb on my foundationless frames straight as an arrow, right down the center of my triangular guides. Is the ability to draw straight comb a genetic factor that hasn't been selected for since the general acceptance of foundation by most beekeepers?


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## sergie (Feb 20, 2012)

Yes I intentionally left my answer very open. Thats because the pro's and cons of each are still very open. For every study I've read supporting small cell I have seen just as many not supporting it. Same for plastic frames, foundation, etc. To my knowledge, no one has come up with any thing close to a definitive answer supported by tried and tested facts on this subject. Thus I cannot and will not tell anyone what I think the right or wrong choice is. I am willing to say my opinion but it is just that an opinion. 

I have decided to go foundationless for many reasons. One of witch is the long long tract record of it. Not only as Mr. Bush stated above but also the countless thousands of years bee's have been drawing their own comb. Is this the "Best" choice, I don't know, but to me it is the safest bet currently.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I've wondered about this. Is there really enough wax in a sheet of wax foundation to save the bees from making a major part of the wax needed to draw out a comb?

I think the real issue that gives more honey with DRAWN comb is not the wax, but the time. When the flow hits and there is somewhere to store the nectar the bees can make a lot of honey. When there is no where to store it, they have to draw comb first. They draw the foundationless faster, no matter what formula you come up with on the conversion of nectar to wax. I think they will make LESS honey with foundation than with foundationless, but I think it's obvious, to anyone who has done it, that they make more honey on drawn comb than when they have to draw comb.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

That makes sense, but as I understand it, foundationless can be extracted and the comb reused. So, given that, why is foundation such a great advancement over foundationless, as long as the frames are extractable?

I'm probably totally wrong about this, but I'm starting to wonder if maybe foundation was a fad that got out of hand.


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## Joel_T (Feb 8, 2013)

So, to sneak a question in....I've got 3 std cell bee packages to install in 8 frame deeps, and a 50/50 mix of small cell wax foundation in wood frames and open wired wood frames for foundationless. What's a good mix for a new hive setup?


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Joel_T said:


> You qualified your answer though with "as long as it works."  I think everyone knows everything works - I just like squeezing out details of the whys and what fors of what seems to work "best."


Ah, but that's the "rub", isn't it? What works "best" for one person doesn't necessarily work "best" for another. We all have different skills and ability levels, so (sadly perhaps) we each need to do our own experimenting to see what works "best" for us. Sometimes we collect new ideas from each other that we would not have thought of on our own. And sometimes those ideas turn out to be wildly helpful for us too--but sometimes not! Sometimes they cause the biggest messes we've ever made!

JMO

Rusty


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## Ryan Williamson (Feb 28, 2012)

rhaldridge said:


> Isn't there an inherent and fairly obvious problem with taking a bunch of unrelated large-cell bees and dumping them on small cell foundation or plastic comb, considering that this must be a stressful situation for the bees, trying to make that adaptation and survive the mites at the same time? I would be far more interested in survival rates after, say, 2 or 3 years.


I believe that the small cell hives in her study were started with small cell bees. I agree that a year would have been great but I can see how that would be expensive to do.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Ryan Williamson said:


> I believe that the small cell hives in her study were started with small cell bees. I agree that a year would have been great but I can see how that would be expensive to do.


Ryan, this is a quote from the article by the scientist who conducted the experiment:



> Bees were collected from a variety of existing colonies *(irrespective of rearing history)* and combined in large cages to achieve a homogeneous mixture of bees and Varroa mites.


I can't say I understand the thinking behind this protocol, because they used comb drawn by small cell bees in the small cell hives, but then chose to use "a homogenous mixture" of bees in the study itself. I don't understand how using small cell bees in small cell comb and large cell bees in large cell comb would have invalidated the results.

The only thing that occurs to me is that perhaps the small cell bees had a lower mite load to begin with, so they didn't think it would be fair to not start with equal mite loads. But I didn't see anything about the initial mite loads of the small cell and large cells bees.


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## BackYardPhenomena (Jul 11, 2012)

Even if you give them small cell, they are going to have a tendency to draw whatever comb they want to. I have bees that have drawn all size cells. I am about to ditch the whole foundation gig and go with starter strips. Some say this isn't a good idea because you set them back... but my response is two way. 1) I am not in this for honey production 2) I just removed some feral bees today that was about as old as a nuc I purchased a few months ago. The feral hive is 3-4x the size of my current hive. The nuc was provided foundation and feeding. The feral was just a swarm.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Joel_T said:


> So, to sneak a question in....I've got 3 std cell bee packages to install in 8 frame deeps, and a 50/50 mix of small cell wax foundation in wood frames and open wired wood frames for foundationless. What's a good mix for a new hive setup?


If it were me, I'd start by putting foundation in all of the frames I give them, That way, all of the comb will be nice and straight, and it will minimize the fat or wavy comb face that often happens with unguided foundationless. (Wavy comb faces will cause you to "roll" bees when they slide against the comb next to it as you pull the first frame).

Once you've got those, put a foundationless frame on each side of the brood frames, btw it and the honey frames that are on the outside edge fo the brood nest.
They'll draw the foundationless out very straight this way.

Every time you've got a the foundationless frames filled, or nearly so, move two frames of sealed brood up to the second box, centered over the brood below it, slide the brood frames together (with you new fndnless with them) and put two more fndnless frames btw the brood frames the the stores frames.

If there's no flow, feed 1:1 syrup, as they'll need some fuel for wax making, and you're wise to leave them their honey stores to feed on during dearth when things get dry in July and August.

Good news is with all of the clear cutting around Columbia county, and plenty of rainfall, there should be tons of forage in spring, so as long as there are plenty of flying days when they're not rained in, you should get your combs filled quickly during the flow.

If your combs get full, be sure they have frames to draw... not only gets you drawn comb, but prevents swarming.

Speaking of swarms, if are actually in are actually *in* Vernonia and you're putting traps out, a shady spot in a tree near the river where it bends down at the end of Weed Ave is probabaly a good spot.


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## Joel_T (Feb 8, 2013)

Few NewYorkers have ever heard of Vernowhere much less have any idea that the Nehalem wraps close to the end of Weed. You been here? We live about 4 miles south, off 47 in the sticks.

And, thanks for the reply. We'll probably start 2 hives along those lines and a 3rd with a 50/50 mix from the start.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Beregondo said:


> (Wavy comb faces will cause you to "roll" bees when they slide against the comb next to it as you pull the first frame).


That's one of the reasons I like my new long hive, and why I'm building another this morning. No risk of rolling bees for this beginner. I just move the follower back a bit, then pry the frames apart and move them down to get extra room between them. Of course, so far, my foundationless combs are straighter than the old foundation combs that came with the nuc I installed. But I guess that can't last.


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## pedrocr (Jun 5, 2012)

rhaldridge said:


> Of course, so far, my foundationless combs are straighter than the old foundation combs that came with the nuc I installed. But I guess that can't last.


That will probably depend on the bees. I've been transitioning my initial hive to foundationless and so far every empty frame I've put in has been drawn with perfectly straight comb, be it between drawn frames or in an empty box. The initial foundation the hive had has sometimes been poorly drawn because by the time they got to it the foundation was wavy or saggy from getting too much heat in the early summer. That was definitely my fault for not managing space properly. At least for this beginner foundationless removes one source of error.

From what I've read in this forum not all bees are as good about building straight comb by themselves. I knew these one could since I made a rookie mistake of leaving a super without frames on the top of the hive and when the swarm moved in they ignored the foundation in the bottom boxes (yes I had three boxes in total for a swarm trap...) and just built very straight parallel combs glued to the inner cover. I spent all of last season moving the hive down into frames and fixing that mess but by then I knew they were great about drawing their own comb.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Joel T, 
I've been to Vernonia a time or two.
My Dad's family homesteaded on Elk Creek Rd off old hwy 30 between Rainier and Delena 70 years ago. I spent all my summers there as a kid.
And I lived in Rainier area for a long time when I got out of the service... worked the Trojan Nuke plant for 10 years.

So I know Columbia county real well, and am familiar with Vernonia..if i had a buck for every time I drove 47 I'd retire.


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## VolunteerK9 (Aug 19, 2011)

I think this is my 4th year with bees and I am still trying to figure out what works and doesn't work for me. Foundationless is not for me. Entirely too much drone comb to contend with. Some of my hives are all mediums (something else I'm getting away from) and I had moved the majority of drone comb to the top boxes last fall for the bees to backfill for the fall flow. This spring when the bees were clustered in the top and should have been rearing worker brood, I had frames full of drones as that's the cell size she had to lay in. In order to get really good brood cells drawn its absolutely necessary to place the foundation less frame between capped brood frames and even then it's a crap shoot. Personally, I think it's either spend a little time now to insert foundation into a frame, or spend a lot of time later on frame manipulations to monitor drone comb.


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## HeffsBStuff (Mar 18, 2013)

VolunteerK9 said:


> I think this is my 4th year with bees and I am still trying to figure out what works and doesn't work for me. Foundationless is not for me. Entirely too much drone comb to contend with.


I am new so please bear with my elementary questions. I am planning on starting with foundationless and narrow medium frames (all medium boxes). I kind of expected the bees to build some drone comb and I was planning on letting them do what they thought they needed to do. I am planning on expanding the brood up as needed by checkerboarding the frames. What kind of problems can I anticipate if I allow the drone comb to stay where the bees place it?


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

With drone comb 
The bees are giving YOU the Beek the resource to kill off mites
*Use it *


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## HeffsBStuff (Mar 18, 2013)

TommyT, Thanks for the reply, Ok, so please continue to bear with my ignorance... I should remove the drone comb? how exactly should I "use it" as you state. Once drone comb is built and used to create the drones the bees feel they need, won't they just rebuild the comb to meet their need for workers and honey storage, or will it forever stay drone comb and only used for drone production? If the latter is the case and I take the drone comb out, won't the bees just build more as they feel they need more drones? This seems kind of counterproductive to me........


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

There are a couple "tricks" you need to know about foundationless frame uses. First, the bees may or may not use it well, this appears to be genetic and if you get bees that don't want to put the comb in the frames properly, they won't. They will also probably give you fits with foundation as well, some bees just want to do things their way. You may have to do quite a bit of cutting out and rubber banding to get the comb where you want it. Typically once you get them going correctly in a frame, they will use it, but occasionally not. If you are hiving a swarm or a package instead of a split, I strongly recommend at least one frame with foundation in the center of the brood nest to get them started off properly. Two is better, I think, but at least one. That way you have one decent brood comb anyway.

Second, you MUST have your hive dead level side to side. Bees make foundationless comb by frestooning (hanging from the top bar in a chain) and if the hive isn't dead level, the comb won't be built in line with the frames, it will be built perpendicular to the the surface of the earth as the bees hang. Worse case you get comb that starts on a top bar of one frame and is tied to the bottom bar of the next frame, very hard to work with! 

You need to provide a distinct and unequivocable guide for them to start from. A wedge type frame with the wedge nailed in sticking down works quite well. The Kelley Foundationless frame did not work as nicely for a friend of mine, his bees insisted on starting on the outside corners instead of the fairly blunt guide in the center. Of course, these were the bees that started out building the comb at a 45 degree angle across the frames, too (see note 1 above).

To get brood comb, you need to insert an empty frame between frames of drawn brood. That way the bees will make more brood comb as it's in the brood nest. If you put the empty frame outside the brood nest, they will make storage comb or drone comb until they have at least a couple frames somewhere around 2/3 full of drone comb. They keep that amount of drone comb around if left to their own devices, but only make drones in the spring and occasionally over the summer, using that comb for honey or pollen the rest of the time. 

If you leave the drone comb where they make it, the bees may restrict the size of the brood nest. I believe they usually make the entire comb in a wild nest from a single start -- that is, they will start all the combs at the same time unless the cavity is quite large, and build down instead of sideways. Part of beekeeping is re-configuring the hive to get a bigger brood nest and more honey storage than the bees would make on their own.

Last, and probably most important, bees will NOT draw comb in a dearth. You really need to keep ahead of them in the spring if you are going foundationless, and keep them drawing comb properly early in the year. Later in the year, especially when there is a dearth, they will NOT finish foundationless comb and will build out adjacent comb much fatter than normal instead, so it you have a partially drawn frame between drawn storage frames, they will make the storage frames very fat, protruding into the empty space in the foundationless frame. Makes it hard to get them out, and they sometimes even bridge the two combs together. Not hard to fix, just cut off the excess comb and put those frames back between capped ones, but it's messy and fairly easy to avoid. I have a couple in each hive that need fixing this week when I start spring maintenance.

Foundationless works just fine -- prior to the development of rolled foundation, everyone used "foundationless" beekeeping! It is more work, but it can be done easily enough.

Peter


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## HeffsBStuff (Mar 18, 2013)

Peter, First I want to thank you for the detailed response. For a new beekeep like myself this is extremely helpful! 

I am starting with nucs so I will have some established frames to use as guides. I will place the new foundationless frames between two established frames to help the bees get going in the correct direction. I have leveled the hives side to side with a very slight slope back to front to allow any water to drain.

I have already purchased and assembled the Kelley foundationless frames so that is what I will try to work with.

"If you leave the drone comb where they make it, the bees may restrict the size of the brood nest. I believe they usually make the entire comb in a wild nest from a single start -- that is, they will start all"

So as I checkerboard the brood frames up to encourage the queen to lay brood in the next box, should I also move the drone comb up and towards the outside of the brood? I would rather relocate the drone comb than destroy it.... maybe I'm just being naïve. 

"Last, and probably most important, bees will NOT draw comb in a dearth. You really need to keep ahead of them in the spring if you are going foundationless, and keep them drawing comb properly early in the year. Later in the year, especially when there is a dearth, they will NOT finish foundationless comb and will build out adjacent comb much fatter than normal instead, so it you have a partially drawn frame between drawn storage frames, they will make the storage frames very fat, protruding into the empty space in the foundationless frame."

Very interesting... makes sense but I'm not sure any other way to approach this other than cutting the excess comb. I plan on trying follower boards to keep the open space within the box to a minimum, but this won't help with the situation of a partially drawn frame between two drawn frames as you stated above. In a dearth I plan on feeding with sugar water, I want to keep this at a minimum, but will the bees draw comb to new frames if they are being fed?

I'm very excited to get started, and there is so much to learn!!!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

heff,

my experience with foundationless frames that i tried for the first time last year on about a dozen hives is that frames that were introduced early in the spring were drawn out nearly 100% drone comb, while frames that were added a little later in the spring were drawn out with cells of all sizes (smaller in the center of the brood nest and larger around the edges).


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Heff, the concept behind _managing the drone comb _referred to above is to let the bees make drone brood, and give the varroa a preferred place to lay their eggs. Then you would remove the drone comb, freeze it for a few days, killing both the drone brood and varroa eggs. The comb would then be defrosted and returned to the hive, the bees clean it up, make more drones, and the cycle continued.

The idea is that the drones are not needed, and the varroa reproduction cycle is interrupted. Note that I am not endorsing this concept/method, simply explaining it for you. :lookout:


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## HeffsBStuff (Mar 18, 2013)

Squarepeg, I'm curious if the hives you placed the foundationless frames in had any existing drone comb or had it been removed? I can see where the bees instinctively would want to raise drones early in the year if the hive didn't feel it had enough drones. I'm thinking out loud but this would make sense from a bees perspective of having plenty of drones to breed any new queens......Not that I'm pretending to think like a bee, they are still a huge mystery to me. 

Graham, Thank you for the explanation of how to manage drone comb and in turn manage varroa. I can see the concept, although to me this still seems like a person would be trying to walk a fine line between mite control and allowing the bees to have enough drones to ensure genetic diversity in the area for queen breeding. I'm not sure why a hive would create more drones than was instinctively needed (unless they had queen problems) I'm sure this are probably numerous flaws in my logic but please remember, I haven't even started my first hive yet, I'm still reading and trying to get some "book learning" under my belt. Please don't feel I am arguing against any opinions, just trying to fit the information into my current understanding of things. Again, thank you all for your patience.

Heff


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

heff, i can see by your responses that you are doing a good job gathering information and thinking through your management options.

as you have seen by now, the choices are many and beekeepers don't always agree.

on top of that is the variability of climate, plus specific availability of nectars, pollens, and water, as well as what drone contribution and disease pressures there may be from nearby colonies.

i'm probably not giving you anything there that you don't already have, i just wanted to share that the challenge of trying to get it figured out for my bees in my location is what i like the most about keeping bees.

bottom line: let your bees and your experiences with them guide you. embrace any mistakes as positive learning experiences and not a failure on your part for not having have read enough.

to answer your question, i interpret the solid frames of drone brood drawn in the early spring as the result of the lack of enough drone comb in the hive already since most of my frames were started with plastic foundation, combined with the fact that it was just prior to mating season and we were already experiencing a tremoundous flow.


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## HeffsBStuff (Mar 18, 2013)

Yes, I have a feeling this is going to be a humbling and wild ride...... Hopefully my bees survive my good intentions. Lol


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Yeah, no matter how much you read and how many people you talk to, you're going to make mistakes and take a while to learn what things look like soon enough to recognize problems to fix them before you lose a hive.

I lost my first hive because I failed to feed them through a severe dearth. All my fault, I didn't check well enough to recognize that the bottom deep was completely empty, nor did I realize how much I needed to feed them. Got everyone through this year, won't make that mistake again.

You will have to see how your bees manage building foundationless frames. Don't be afraid to move frames around, and it's probably a good idea to keep the drone comb if you get it one or two frames from the outside of the box, next to but not in the brood nest. The bees will take the queen over and have her lay in it when they want drones, but if it's away from the brood nest, will use it for storage most of the year.

Again, if they stop drawing out a foundationless frame and the frames beside it are starting to get fat, move that partial frame to the outside of the box. You should be able to do this better than I did since I wasn't looking at them all that much this year -- as a newbie, you should probably inspect your hive at least every couple weeks, weekly if they are doing well, not because THEY need it (they don't) but because YOU need to see what's going on inside and outside the hive. That was you can tell how well they are doing and the stage of buildup, etc by the activity at the entrance in future years and don't need to look inside much unless something looks wrong. It is disruptive to the hive for some chump to pull all the frames out and scare the queen after all. 

Questions and pictures will make it much easier for you to learn without doing detrimental things to your bees!

Peter


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I take the drone comb out, won't the bees just build more as they feel they need more drones? 

Yes.

>This seems kind of counterproductive to me........

Exactly.


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