# Jan Dzierżoń (Johann Dzierzon) - true father of beekeeping



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Very interesting read Overseas Beekeeper.

He must have been an incredible guy to move from skep beekeeping, to make all the discoveries he did, even the secretion of royal jelly. A man truly in tune with bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Another interesting thing is the number of "early fathers" who were theologians. Dzierzon, Langstroth, Abbe Emile Warre, Brother Adam, and more.


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Another interesting thing is the number of "early fathers" who were theologians. Dzierzon, Langstroth, Abbe Emile Warre, Brother Adam, and more.


Back then, only priests could spare all that time for long observations in bee yards.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

The first inventor of a moveable frame was a Russian, his name was Propokovitch. He used frames in his honey chambers exclusively. Sure he didn't inspect the honey combs! So frames were invented in the first place to harvest honey without killing the hives. Propokovitch was a beekeeper living in 1800 and he owned a business of 10,000 hives.

This is the hive he used back in that time: 































Here some pictures of a museum and some infos on Propokovitch:
http://www.outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/Museum/Museum2.htm


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

MARBIS said:


> Back then, only priests could spare all that time for long observations in bee yards.


Oh I bet there were plenty of beekeepers but they were poor and probably could not write so their inventions and observations were lost.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> true father of beekeeping

There had been beekeepers for millennia before him... He invented one of the first practical beehives and also discovered parthenogenesis. But then Huber had already covered all the rest of the issues... Dzierzon's book is definitely one of the seminal works on beekeeping.

https://ia600201.us.archive.org/17/items/dzierzonsration00stutgoog/dzierzonsration00stutgoog.pdf


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## Overseas_Beekeeper (Jul 19, 2016)

Thanks for the feedback guys. I agree with you, I should write "one of the fathers". I hope you will forgive me for my mistake 

By the way, Michael, I've read that you are interested in cell sizes. This is fragment of book by Dr. T. Ciesielski from 1888.
















"...Komórki pszczele są 13mm (6 linii) głębokie, a prawie 5mm (2 2/5 linii) szerokie, pięć takich komórek czyni jeden call..."

In free translation this means

"...Bees cells are 13mm (6 line) deep and almost 5mm (2 2/5 line) wide, five of those cells make 1 inch..."


P.S. "Propokovitch" was Ukrainian, not Russian. (Encyklopedia PWN, Tom 3, Warszawa 1991, s. 62.)


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

The guy's name is spelled Petro Prokopovych. He was born in a town that is now Ukrainian, although at that time it was all part of the Russian Empire. I thought all of his work was published in Russian language, no? 

Overseas Beekeeper, would you care to show an excerpt of that encyclopedia you cited? I'm always curious about publications from other countries and how they tend to contradict other sources.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>"...Bees cells are 13mm (6 line) deep and almost 5mm (2 2/5 line) wide, five of those cells make 1 inch..."

Thanks. "Almost 5mm" sounds like about 4.9mm... five to an inch is the commonly given size in most of the old literature which comes close to 5.mm.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> ... is the commonly given size in most of the old literature which comes close to 5.mm.


Most? 

Wishful thinking.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Can you really ignore the work done by David Heaf et al. on the subject of small cell in old literature?

http://www.dheaf.plus.com/warrebeekeeping/natural_cell_size_heaf.pdf

Also: http://www.dheaf.plus.com/warrebeekeeping/do_small_cells_help_bees_cope_with_varroa.pdf


Journal of Apicultural Research 53(3): 327-336 (2014) DOI 10.3896/IBRA.1.53.3.01

*On the natural cell size of European honey bees: a "fatal error" or distortion of historical data?*

Citation: highlighting by me
"Historical data show not only that cell sizes were *not smaller in the past*, but also that estimating cell densities was not an issue before the introduction of wax foundation. Moreover, not realizing that the two methods of estimating cell densities are equivalent, the proponents of small cells have erroneously corrected the data reported by the authors of the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. *In conclusion, the claim that cells were smaller in the past is not only not supported by the historical records, but rests on a distortion of the historical records resulting from an incorrect transformation of the original data.*
http://www.idabees.org/uploads/6/7/3/6/6736824/saucy-naturalsmallsize-jar_53_3_01.pdf

:v:


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Can you really ignore the work done by ..........


A man hears only what fits with his existing world view.


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## Overseas_Beekeeper (Jul 19, 2016)

I hope this post will pass, because my last one was blocked "waiting for acceptation by moderator" or smth like that. I'll try to rewrite it. 


*ABK*
I hear you, but look at this:

http://www.outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/Museum/Museum2.htm
"The museum in named to honor Petro Prokopovych, a Ukrainian beekeeper"

http://beekeeping.com.ua/html_en/prokopovych_en.html
"Petro Prokopovych was born in Ukraine" - this is from a Ukrainian site. 

About encyclopedia, I don't know if this is what you wanted, but here you go - online version of PWN

http://encyklopedia.pwn.pl/haslo/Prokopowycz-Petro;3962563.html

"Prokopowycz Petro, Piotr Prokopowicz, ur. 26 VI 1775, zm. 22 III 1850,
pszczelarz ukraiński;" - free translation 

"Petro Prokopovych - Ukrainian beekeeper"

This is hard to say what was what, it's depend on point of view, if you know what I mean. You know, I could say that many famous Russians were Polish, because Poland invaded and captured Moscow. After that, Sigismund's son, Prince Władysław of Poland, was briefly elected tsar and then Sigismund decided to seize the Russian throne for himself. That is not true - Russians were always Russians. Let's get back to the bees please 

*
Michael Busch*
--->"sounds like about 4.9mm"

I think the same way.


*BernhardHeuvel and Oldtimer *

Rest of that fragment is talking about:

że komórki stosują sie zawsze do wielkości pszczół: większe pszczoły budują większe komórki, mniejsze budują (u borówek łatwo to wpada w oko) mniejsze.

cells are symmetric to bee size, bigger bees are building bigger cells, smaller bees are building (in borówka its easy to catch that by eye) smaller. 

Dr. Ciesielski was an botanist, beekeeper. Also he discovered and proved that foulbrood is caused by bacteria. He was scientist and I doubt that he didn't know how to measure. 

I don't want to start a fight between you guys, but read this:
http://www.dheaf.plus.com/warrebeekeeping/natural_cell_size_heaf.pdf

The author thanks *Michael Bush*, Francis Saucy and Larry Garrett for drawing his attention to
the data of François Huber, Abbé Collin and Pierre André Latreill respectively.

I think, he may know this - wink wink


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Can you really ignore the work done by David Heaf et al. on the subject of small cell in old literature?

I've read his article yes. I've also read most of the old literature and indeed have much of it on my bookshelf. Most of it is available at Cornell's "Hive and the Honey Bee" collection. I can clearly say MOST (but not all) of it says 5 cells to an inch. David has focused on the rare exceptions rather than what most of them say.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> A man hears only what fits with his existing world view.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2a-_dvxtN0


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

On the book shelf, oh yeah, of course. Make scans of the relevant pages of each book, please, e-mail it to me. Thanks.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Why email? I would very much like to see that too. I wish I had an extensive library of historic bee books from around the world.

Michael, would you mind making the scans, or just taking pictures of the relevant pages and posting?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>On the book shelf, oh yeah, of course. Make scans of the relevant pages of each book, please, e-mail it to me. 

I have listed a significant number of reference on my web site. Certainly not all of them but I tried to pick books that are either fairly accessible or are in the Hive and the Honey Bee Collection or readily available on google books. I have names, dates and page numbers there. I really don't have time to find each page, scan and email. Right now I need to go move a lot of hay, fix a toilet, level where they put in the new septic tank, check some hives to make sure they got a laying queen, mow 18 acres, plant bee forage, move a bunch of things into the basement, finish remodeling two rooms, wire some 220 outlets...

Dee has a lot of them listed here:

http://beesource.com/point-of-view/dee-lusby/historical-data-on-the-influence-of-cell-size/


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Oh, we do a lot of hay, too. Hard wakka in the hot summer sun. 

Winter is coming soon, maybe you have some spare time then. Use your not so new anymore GoPro action cam to take the pictures of those pages. A good excersise for the next season so we can see some thriving small cell lazy beekeeping hives on youtube. :lookout:


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## Joe Art Damalerio (Jul 28, 2016)

Thanks for the information Sir.. HE is the LEGEND


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

What is this, the battle of the worlds? The thread title itself is very immature, for making such a categorical statement with the limited research done by the OP. 
"true father of beekeeping"..."LEGEND". It's like listening to kids argue about who's stronger, Arnold Schwartzenegger or Sylvester Stallone.


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## Overseas_Beekeeper (Jul 19, 2016)

ABK 
I was polite and agreed with you, that there was many fathers, but hey, for me - Dzierżoń was on the top. If you wanna argue with me, use arguments and facts not "names". Also it's very immature, not knowing that Arnold Schwarzenegger was a professional bodybuilder and for sure he was stronger at the time haha  It's very not cool how few of you, is attacking people on the forum and I'm not talking about myself. That for sure is childish and emotionally immature - learn how to handle your ego. So let's be nicer for each other - it's that ok for you? Can we all be friends?


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

The question of who came first isn't an opinion, it's a historical fact. I don't need to argue, someone else posted some good information to refute what you stated.


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## Overseas_Beekeeper (Jul 19, 2016)

The question of who was born first isn't important, but yes, that is a historical fact, Ukrainian guy was born first - so what? There were beeks before him, like M.Busch said, you know? For me Dzierżoń was a guy, who did more to world's beekeeping community. For example bee space, unfertilized eggs - parthenogenesis, different diet of each bee, secrets of royal gelly - it's role in development of queen bees etc. In Poland he is recognized as "the father of beekeeping". Also in Crane, Eva (1999). "The world history of beekeeping and honey hunting" he is called quote "Johann Dzierzon is considered the father of modern apiology and apiculture." 

Ukrainian guy, Prokopowicz, was also on top, but imho Dierżoń was more important. What do you want more? You didn't mention our friendship, is it solid like a rock from now on? LOL


P.S. Also I recognize post, which you are referring too, It was successfully copied from another forum, but facts are wrong. Prokopowicz and 10k hives? Wishful thinking He had like 1600 bee hives, for sure not more than 2k.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

I don't think the argument was about who was born first. Prokopovitch is said to have come up with a removable frame design first. Yes, plenty of people kept bees before him. If you are trying to argue that your friend, solid like a rock, Johan Dzierzronzr contributed the greatest amount to successful beekeeping today, then your thread title should have reflected this. "True father" is improper because first, to specify "true" is to say that others have claimed someone to have been the father, but you're saying they're all wrong, here's the REAL father. Second, what the heck is father as it relates to beekeeping anyway? He certainly didn't invent the practice. Plenty of people keep bees today using none of the methods that he came up with. Is it not possible that others could have come up with similar methods and conclusions without having ever heard of his work? I know people keep bees in Nigeria today in boxes made of straw. Pretty successfully. They don't know how to write in their own language, let alone read Polish.


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## Overseas_Beekeeper (Jul 19, 2016)

---->If you are trying to argue that your friend, solid like a rock, Johan Dzierzronz

Sadly, Dzierżoń wasn't my friend, he died before I was born. You still have a chance to be one  

----> "True father" is improper because first, to specify "true" is to say that others have claimed someone to have been the father, but you're saying they're all wrong, here's the REAL father"

I assumed that you Americans are referring to Langstroth as a father of beekeeping - from what you wrote, guess I was wrong, sorry for that. Yes, you have successfully decrypted me. That was exactly my main goal. For me, he was a real father and top 1, you can disagree with me and it's fine. You can try to prove me wrong. I'm a simple man, and I can be wrong. 

----->"Second, what the heck is father as it relates to beekeeping anyway?"

I can speak only for myself, so for me It's a man who did the best job for development of beekeeping that I know and love today. In my humble opinion, there is always a top dog. 

----->"Is it not possible that others could have come up with similar methods and conclusions without having ever heard of his work"

Yes, it's very possible and I have question for you. 

Is it not possible that others than A.Einstein could have come up with similar methods and conclusion without having ever heard of his work?

----->" I know people keep bees in Nigeria today in boxes made of straw"

Yes, people in Central Europe were using that kind of beehives in the past. Even today we can find younger version of "straw" hives like this 50 years old wielkopolski hive or buy a new one from enthusiast. 
















And older than 50 years 








It's called "Ul słowiański" - Slavic beehive


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Guys let's chill.

I have often heard Rev Langstroth referred to as the father of modern beekeeping, no problem with the term, and until this thread had assumed he was.

But if Dzierżon came up with a lot of these ideas first and that is documented, then me anyway no problem with referring to him as a father of modern beekeeping. Certainly seems like he was an incredible guy if time and language were not a barrier I would love to have spent time with him. Langstroth must certainly still be one of the "fathers", much of his work may have been origional, plus he was persuasive enough to popularize his design or slight modifications of it across the western world.


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## flamenco108 (Mar 27, 2016)

I've red that Langstroth admired Dzierzon's works, as he had opportunity to know them from German publications - Wikipedia. It's hard to believe for me, as the distance is gigantic for that time, but Langstroth also used Italian queens bred by Dzierzon. He made a practical use of these ideas (apart from other his own discoveries), so that's why even in Poland the "bee space" is called "bee space", although it was first discovered by Dzierzon. But the one who knew how to use it was Langstroth. That's how it works. Dzierzon's beehive now is just a historical artifact, but Langstroth's was just slightly modified until today.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

ABK said:


> Why email? I would very much like to see that too. I wish I had an extensive library of historic bee books from around the world.


I have a collection in progress here.
https://www.pinterest.com/naturebee/beekeeping-literature/

Best Regards
Joe Waggle
https://www.facebook.com/Historical.Honeybee.Articles/


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Just out of curiosity, I measured a lot of natural comb a few years ago, from my Warre hives. All were wild-caught bees. They had a range of 4.7 to 5.2 mm. cell size in brood comb. I guess the bees didn't know they were doing it wrong.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

I guess you have different bees over there in Arizona. Too close to Dee.  I measured 4.6-5.8 mm. All can be found. Most cells are 5.4 mm. Even after ten years of undisturbed foundation free and frame free comb building. But that is just my bees and those of my friends.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

From what I have read Langstroth was far from the first person to come up with a movable frame hive. My impression is that there where several of them. To the point it was almost like everyone was coming up with one. In truth I cannot for certain think of anything Langstroth did come up with first but then that my be my limited knowledge speaking. What I do credit Langstroth for is getting it popularized. The overall impression on me was Langstroth was a promoter or salesperson. I have never really considered the langstroth hive to be the best. simply the most popular. That alone could be a huge motivation for it to be and remain the most common hive used. As far as other information concerning bees such as bees space food queen rearing fertility genetics etc. I have never heard much on langstroth and these issues. Quite possibly he was simply aware of what others have discovered. Evidently whatever others knew when they failed at one critical step. they didn't pass it along. Where does that play inot the "Fathering" of anything. Consider the roll of nurture, support promotion of your idea as part of "Fathering". SO I suppose it has a lot to do with how you want to look at it as to who did what. But I have never had that much of an impression that Langstroth himself came up with a lot of idea solely on his own. I am not sure anyone did. So as far as some single individual having the entire package in and of themselves. don't think it ever happened.


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