# Is it really so bad raising your own queens?



## aunt betty

Get to know the area you're in well enough to know how many bee hives are within flight range. If you find that your two nucs are the only bees for miles then maybe your state people are right. I suspect you'll find that there are 50 hives within a 3-mile radius of your bee yard and you can raise queens. It's sort of about good healthy drones and having them around when they're needed. 
Get to know your bee neighbors. Making my own queens is the most exciting part of keeping bees for me.


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## Dan the bee guy

That sounds like it was written by a college educated person that has never done real work in their life.


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## frustrateddrone

Dan the bee guy said:


> That sounds like it was written by a college educated person that has never done real work in their life.


I know I will be flamed for posting this........ USA just went through an election. It could be just like that. Some see it as a positive and some see it as a negative. ( MODERATORS: I said nothing as far as my own opinion, so just don't flame me as I never posted anything to sway it one way or another) On to actual speculation of queen results geographically where I live. I live in Africanized bee zone. Best not to try and breed long term to see what the result come out to. Yes, I order bees! I have indeed kept Africanized bees for nearly a year with them being killed by my intention. Experiences first hand has taught me me what I do like and what I do not like.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Please note that the OP is in *AUSTRALIA* !!! 

His situation has _nothing_ to do with the USDA or the recent election in the USA.


:ws:



.. location is in the upper right hand corner of every post ...
.. if you don't see the location data on your device, scroll over to the right.
... and for the record, my Android Moto phone does display location data - I checked.
... I'll bet that location data is visible on virtually all mobile devices, if you look for it. 

.


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## Aroc

I've always heard it's best to raise your own bees to get the traits you want. Occasionally I think you do need to buy on from another location just to prevent inbreeding etc. it's the same with cattle.


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## Phoebee

For most of us there is no reason not to raise our own queens except ...

... if you are not happy with the characteristics of your bees.

... small apiaries may need to bring in outside genetics occasionally, especially if you don't have other apiaries close enough to take advantage of their drones. It is generally easier and cheaper to requeen than to buy nucs.

... yeah, the folks with feral africanized bees in the area need to think twice about it. Although a lot of US queen sources come from areas where africanized bees are a possiblity. Hopefully, Australia does not have these malicious bees.

If you do find yourself in an isolated location without domesticated or feral colonies nearby, but can run enough colonies to maintain a good breeding mix, you might be in an excellent position to raise queens. Once you have a good line, you may be able to maintain it pretty true.

The good news is, the bees know how to do all the hard work. Raising queens is part of being a beekeeper, and it is not that hard to do the basic methods.


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## Michael Bush

>Now to me, as a new beekeeper, I read this as "you can't raise your own queens successfully, you have to buy them from a breeder". This to me sounds like rubbish, and seems like a poor way to promote preservation of bees as an important part of nature.

It's propaganda, in my opinion.

"At the outset, I shall undoubtedly be met by those inevitable "Yankee questions" - Does Queen-Rearing pay? Would it not pay me better to stick to honey-production, and buy the few queens which I need, as often as is required?

"I might answer, does it pay to kiss your wife? to look at anything beautiful? to like a golden Italian Queen? to eat apples or gooseberries? or anything else agreeable to our nature? is the gain in health, strength, and happiness, which this form of recreation secures, to be judged by the dollar-and-cent stand-point of the world?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm

"Can the pleasure which comes to one while looking at a beautiful Queen and her bees, which have been brought up to a high stand-point by their owner, be bought? Is the flavor of the honey that you have produced, or the keen enjoyment that you have had in producing it, to be had in the market?"--Gilbert M. Doolittle, Scientific queen-rearing


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## SB-Russ

Thanks folks. We're pretty lucky here in Australia. There has been an incursion of Asian honey bees in the far north, so I'm sure they will get here eventually, but for now it's just European honey bees. 

I mainly want my own queens so they are adapted to our local environment, which I fear losing with purchased queens. Plus I'm wanting to do my own splits and Nucs in the good times to offset winter and dearth losses in the bad times. SHB and AFB can be bad around here I'm told, and if my small backyard operation only has 3 hives (my starting aim), I'm afraid I'll lose the lot at once if I don't multiply.


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## rmcpb

You certainly breed your own queens. I think that is one of the best bits of beekeeping, developing a locally adapted strain.

Cheers
Rob.


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## Nordak

One of the most fulfilling endeavors in beekeeping to me is raising my own queens. Go for it and be rewarded for your efforts.


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## Dan P

I would raise your own if I was you. I am sure there is enough other genetics flying around. I hear from the people on the web that sometimes you have plenty of bees especially in the manuka areas during flow.


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## Phoebee

SB-Russ, on this matter of feral bees, in the US they're at a serious disadvantage due to the varroa infestation and the ensuing diseases, leading many beekeepers to conclude that feral colonies can't survive long.

What's the present varroa situation Down Under? Have you managed to escape so far or did they make it in? If some fool imported _Apis cerena_, you may have run out of luck. But if you don't have varroa, feral bees may provide plenty of mating opportunities, plus a source of locally-adapted bees.


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## SB-Russ

To date we had been Varoa free, and the Asian Bees established up north had not shown any signs. However, several months ago, an incursion of Varoa Jacobsonii was discovered at a port further south.

Our primary industries department has been trying hard to control it, and say they think they have it under control, but you can never tell with Mother Nature. Time will tell if any have survived, and whether they can evolve to survive on Apis melifera, instead of Apis cerana.


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## Michael Bush

>Thanks folks. We're pretty lucky here in Australia. There has been an incursion of Asian honey bees in the far north, so I'm sure they will get here eventually, but for now it's just European honey bees. 

The Apis cerana will not cross breed with Apis mellifera, if that is your concern. Of course they will compete and they are often hosts to Varroa mites...


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## Daniel Y

I suppose they would have to explain to me what a queen breeder is dong that I would not. I also tend to read any comment such as "It can ...." As it is just as likely that it "Cannot". In other words it may or may not lead to such results. So what exactly causes the difference?
I know I have always produced my own queens and many of my best queens I got that way. many of my worst queens I got that way. I actually capture or purchase many of either. I do occasionally see outright poor queens. but for the most part they are acceptable to the best range. So my take is pass on a lot of perfectly fine queens because you might produce a few bad ones.


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## Lauri

Trying to make increases and be self sufficient without rearing your own queens is like trying to garden without the right seeds.

You have queens when you want, in the amounts you want, you get decent control over genetics and you get the pick of the litter.

I did it without prior beekeeping experience, no mentor. So can you.

I can't tell you how much I've learned from approaching beekeeping from the science aspect instead of focusing on surplus honey production right off the bat as most people do. 
I've learned to make increases with little cost, keep my bees not only alive but thriving, overwinter with almost no losses, sell queens and nucs during the season. But I could switch over to honey production just about overnight if something warranted food production over bee production. I'm well set for being self sufficient and productive. I couldn't have done most of it if I had not learned to rear my own queens.


































And this was after the 'go to' experienced local folks warned me it couldn't be done or wasn't worth the trouble. Glad I didn't listen.









I started trying to rear my own queens my very first year. A lot of reading, trial and error..it didn't take long to achieve_ some_ success and I just kept trying to improve from there.


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## clyderoad

Lauri said:


> I can't tell you how much I've learned from approaching beekeeping from the science aspect instead of focusing on surplus honey production right off the bat as most people do.


I would like to submit that focusing on managing the hives for optimum honey production is a scientific aspect of beekeeping as well. Try it, you'll see. 
Furthermore, as honey producers many (most?) also raise queens and bees. If not at the beginning, they will soon enough.
Honey production is two fold: Raise good honey bees to chase nectar flows successfully.


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## aunt betty

Dan the bee guy said:


> That sounds like it was written by a college educated person that has never done real work in their life.


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## Dan the bee guy

I'm in aw of Lauri Allways great pics of beautiful queens. Something that everyone should strive for.


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## Dan the bee guy

Aunt Betty you know that is someone who is educated beyond their ability to comprehend


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## Slow Drone

rmcpb said:


> You certainly breed your own queens. I think that is one of the best bits of beekeeping, developing a locally adapted strain.
> 
> Cheers
> Rob.


I couldn't agree more! Hard to beat locally adapted bees.


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## Colobee

& I couldn't disagree more...  

I've rarely ever had a "local" colony do much more than store enough honey to maybe make it through the first winter. They seldom "perform" until a queen with "good" genetics is introduced. The exception is daughters of "good genetics" queens. After a year or two they (locally adapted/ grandaughters & beyond) tend to fail more often than not in my experience. 

I haven't made a serious effort at a controlled breeding program - it's just not practical for me, and I suspect many. I can only try to saturate my area with "good" drone genetics & hope for the best. Genetics are more or less thrown to the wind for most of us.

I guess it depends on your objectives. I want gentle bees that bring in a good crop, don't swarm "at the drop of a hat", overwinter well, & are mite & (resulting) disease tolerant - something I can be more certain of with good mail order genetics, incorporated frequently.


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## Colobee

Oldtimer has shared a great treatise on one method of rearing queens. (He's from "down under"). It's tucked away here on BeeSource : http://beesource.com/resources/elem...queen-cells-without-grafting-cut-cell-method/

It's well worth the read if you are considering rearing your own queens.


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## SB-Russ

Thanks for the link. Very detailed wrticle but a bit much for my newbie brain to absorb, so I'll have to revisit when I have a bit more hands-on experience.


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## Colobee

Look into OTS ( On the spot) queen rearing - much less complicated, much less "overwhelming", and by many reports often very successful for small scale ( & up) & "first timers". Here's a link to one of many threads on the subject : http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?319572-OTS-queen-rearing. 

David La Ferny has a nice "beginner" treatise - http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ing-using-the-Joseph-Clemens-Starter-Finisher

There are dozens upon hundreds of others. Almost every thread on the subject leads to a dozen others. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?314557-easy-small-scale-queen-rearing-method.

My advice - don't get lost in the rabbit hole - pick something simple and give it a try.

Good luck!


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## beepro

What the literature said was from who knows a long long time ago. Maybe back then the bee environment was
way more different than today. Since beekeeping is all local and everyone else's bee issues and experiences are different, it
is hard to establish the reality until you've try it out for yourself. Sometimes I wonder why other member's bee situation and what they
have encountered are different from mine. Then realized that their bee environment and species are different that what I have locally. To find
out you have to graft a few queens to establish the fact from what the literature said.
Must be that the varroa was brought over by the Asian bees since they're the main
carrier to start with. It won't be long now if they keep on spreading through out the northern area.
You have to keep on expanding your apiary hoping to take the impact of a potential loss one day. We all have
to start somewhere, somehow. So try it in baby steps first and then learn from your experiences. Give it a go and
see what you'll get!


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## kilocharlie

Russ - with the Apis ceranae on their way to your door, I'd start learning queen rearing as soon as possible. Expect a learning curve, and see it through. It may take a few tries so hang in there. Read all that you can until it starts making sense. You're in the right place - beesource's queen rearing page is where it's at!

Before you start, try to find a local mentor!

First thing is to determine the scale of your operation. You have enough bees for _____ many nucleus colonies? You can try to make a few more queens than that, but not a lot more. 

Now go make up that many 5-frame nucleus boxes for mating. You can move these near to an large apiary for mating them so there are enough drones.

Then make up a 6-frame, ventilated nucleus box for the cell raiser.

Then read every thread you can and every book you can until it all makes sense. Ask more questions here on beesource. Enjoy the failures that come at first - we all SUCK our first few tries , but have a go and get your hands dirty. By all means, buy some mated queens to make up for you early failures. This will keep your apiary out of deep trouble.

Best of luck, hope to hear your questions!


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## kilocharlie

Russ - with the Apis ceranae on their way to your door, I'd start learning queen rearing as soon as possible. Expect a learning curve, and see it through. It may take a few tries so hang in there. Read all that you can until it starts making sense. You're in the right place - beesource's queen rearing page is where it's at!

Before you start, try to find a local mentor!

First thing is to determine the scale of your operation. You have enough bees for _____ many nucleus colonies? You can try to make a few more queens than that, but not a lot more. 

Now go make up that many 5-frame nucleus boxes for mating. You can move these near to an large apiary for mating them so there are enough drones.

Then make up a 6-frame, ventilated nucleus box for the cell raiser.

Then read every thread you can and every book you can until it all makes sense. Ask more questions here on beesource. Enjoy the failures that come at first - we all SUCK our first few tries , but have a go and get your hands dirty. By all means, buy some mated queens to make up for you early failures. This will keep your apiary out of deep trouble.

Best of luck, hope to hear your questions!


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## SB-Russ

Thanks all.

Raising queens will certainly be on the cards when the time is right. My two new hives are performing radically different. One has build out three empty frames in less than 2 weeks, but the other hasn't even started on the new frames I put in, or even completed the ones they came with. So I have no idea what capacity I have for multiplying yet.


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## Daniel Y

I can get lots of queens produced. Getting them mated is a bigger problem. Having enough bees to keep those that mated and allowing them to build up is the limiting factor. I have found I need about 3 strong frames of bees to get any queen to build up. and that still takes a while. SO a full size strong hive of 20 frames will make up about 4 nuc colonies if all goes well. I make them queenless. I can expect about 20 cells produced. most of which will produce queens. of those 20 queens 4 or 5 will successfully mate and return. I then split up the entire hive population and give each mated queen equal number of frames and bees. So far my timing then causes that nuc to remain pretty much a nuc for the rest of the season. Not building up until the following spring. I have 16 of them right now made up from 6 swarms captured this past spring. Only two hives reached that full size hive strength I am looking for.


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## Michael Palmer

Colobee said:


> & I couldn't disagree more...
> 
> I've rarely ever had a "local" colony do much more than store enough honey to maybe make it through the first winter. They seldom "perform" until a queen with "good" genetics is introduced. The exception is daughters of "good genetics" queens. After a year or two they (locally adapted/ grandaughters & beyond) tend to fail more often than not in my experience.


Well, I guess that depends on your neighborhood. If you want good stock, then both sides of the equation must be the stock you want. Just relying on "What's out there" is a mistake. It takes time to develop good stock, largely because you have to change the neighborhood. Rather than relying on supposed "survivor ferals" that are of unknown stocks and most likely escapes, or on the rubbish being imported into the neighborhood from "Puppy Mill" breeders, you need to get good stock out there for your drone mothers. This means flooding the area...with apiaries of your own selected stock, and/or providing stock to those, in your neighborhood, who are importing the rubbish.


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## beepro

Until you can over populate your local DCA with your own drones fighting the
local rubbish is an uphill battle. Been trying to do that for 4 years now. Still got the
mutts because of the local carnis drones. After the 4th generation of open mating they
all became the local mutts. Have to requeen with the good stocks and using the local mutts to
build up your hives first. There is more to it. Not that easy to do!


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## dudelt

As far as the concern regarding in-breeding goes, JWChestnut stated quite well in another thread " In the aboriginal world, bees were single breeding females surrounded thinly by colonies founded by (likely) sisters --- this is a recipe for genetic disaster. In response: bees evolved 1) Single locus sex incompatibility, 2) polyandrogyny 3) meiosis crossing over rate higher than other organisms." The thread is located at (http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?332248-Introducing-new-genetics/page2) post # 23. He clearly knows way more than me and I cannot dispute his claims. What does make sense to be is that when a hive swarms, how far does it go from the parent colony? If the swarms are going less than 5 miles, inbreeding is going to occur on a regular basis. This has been happening for a million years. Don't be concerned about "flesh eating, sickly, zombie bees". Start raising queens when you are ready to do so.


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## Riverderwent

SB-Russ said:


> *Is it really so bad raising your own queens?*
> 
> Now, I reckon the answer to my question is No, but here's why I ask.


You are correct; the answer to your question is no. Your Queensland government site also says, "A bee swarm is a round or oval mass of bees seeking a place to start a new nest under the direction of a queen." Follow their rules, not their advice.


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## sakhoney

SB Russ - I am the one who throws in a monkey wrench on the posts. And now its time to do that here. Raise your own queens - then when its time to get them mated - move them (the nucs) 10 KM away/or more from where you started them from - no chance for them to mate with there brothers this way. That's why my queen yard is at my shop but my nuc yard is several miles away
My 2 cents


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## Michael Palmer

Similar here, but I don't move the mating nucs. They're on permanent stands...for summer...and I take the cells to them from the cell building yard that is several miles away. We catch the queens at the mating yard and give them to nucs that are made from brood factories and moved to their permanent locations. 

I do have a group of mating nucs located near my cell building yard...the Baby Decker mating yard...the cell building apiary is the Decker yard. No matter. The queens are well mated. See, the cell building yard has 30+ strong cell building colonies, and 68 brood factories. All have a wide mix of my queens from different years. There are only 4 -6 breeders in the cell building yard, and they don't raise many drones. So, while it is true that there is the possibility of my virgins in Baby Decker mating with a brother, very slim chances. The area is absolutely flooded with drones of different lines, and the virgins mate with 10-15 or more drones anyway. Really no chance of inbreeding.


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## SB-Russ

Only problem with that for me is I have no outyards, just my back yard. Don't really know anyone I can ask to use their place either. Maybe that will change if I get around to meeting some other local beeks, but that's how it is for now.


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