# Breeder vs. production queens



## Beezly (Jun 25, 2011)

Ok,
I'm not trying to be cheap, just trying to learn. There must be a difference. I get that the breeders are for rearing quality queens and probably should not be used for production. I don't fully understand this when queens can be quality layers for a couple of years. I have looked for the answers on Russell apiaries site as well as a couple others, but this is not answered clearly.
Thanks again,
mike


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## jeff123fish (Jul 3, 2007)

a production queen can have outstanding qualities,..... with a breeder queen her daughters should have outstanding qualities


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Breeders are Instrumentally Inseminated so that the whole mating process is controlled. The drones providing sperm come from known lineages as do the virgins. Open mated breeders may come from the same queen lineages as the II queens but are not subject to those tight controls and mate naturally with whatever drones are available in a Drone Congregation Area. The queen breeders flood the area with desirable drones but there is still the possibility of the virgin mating with other drones; not all bad news, as diversity is a desirable result. You're paying for a quality breeder to graft your production queens from. You certainly don't want to buy a $100.00 or $300.00, or whatever amount, breeder to put in a regular production hive; the idea is to use daughter queens from the breeder. And yes, queens can be quality layers for a couple or several years, or they could be superseded in 5 days or swarm in a month. Not a good deal to have an expensive breeder superseded immediately after introduction, happened to me twice last year.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

My understanding is that ii queens usually do not survive the winter, particularly in northern climates.


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## Beezly (Jun 25, 2011)

Thanks ya'll.
I think you have answered my question. I have questions about the viability of II queens as well but will address these in future threads. I know they are indeed viable, but understand there are possible premature supercedure issues. Thanks for all of your input.
mike


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

To fully understand the concept, you first need to understand what you get from each graft... each worker egg is fertilized with one individual sperm... the sperm is not a mixture of the genetics from all of the drones that the queen has mated with, but rather a direct deposit from that one particular drone... thus each egg will create a bee (worker or queen) that is a direct mix if the genetics carried by the queen and those carried by the one drone whose sperm has fertilized that particular egg...

There are two types of complexities involved in understanding honey bee genetics... the first is the genetic make up of a colony or "colony diversity"... a queen that has been open mated will have mated with as many as 20 drones, thus there can be as many as twenty different genetic "mixes within the colony... the drones that this queen produces will carry only her genetics (as the drone eggs are not fertilized by sperm), but each worker will carry only as much as half of her genetics with the other 50%+ being from the drones that she has mated with... so the good and bad qualities of this colony have more to do with the particular amount of eggs fertilized by certain drones, which represent certain percentages of workers that carry certain traits from their fathers... however, grafting from this colony will produce upto twenty different types of queens, as there are upto twenty different genetic mixtures within that colony... 

The second complexity is the genetic make up of the queen herself or "lineage diversity"... this is the mixture of all of the queens and drones which have come before her and have direct effect on which traits she can pass on to her progeny... keep in mind that several traits that we as beekeepers look for are recessive traits... meaning that even though the queen may be carrying the trait, it will not be expressed in her offspring unless the sperm that fertilizes the offsprings egg has come from a drone that also carries that trait... 

Production queens are open mated, so there is no true way of knowing what mixes you will get when you graft from the colony... 

Breeder queens come in two forms... Insemenated and Naturally mated...

Insemenated are obviously completely controlled mixes so that every egg will be fertilized by a sperm from drones produced from one particular queen... so every larvae that you graft will be of an extremely similar genetic make up... however, the downside to these queens are that they need to be confined to limit their laying as they usually do not lay nearly as many fertilized eggs as a naturally mated queen and rarely make it throughout an entire season, much less over winter.

Naturally mated breeders are those that have been studied by the developer for over one full year and the progeny have been approved by the developer as being from the proper genetics... this type of breeder queen is usually far more preferred for several reasons... first off, the naturally mated breeder queen can be used to graft from for several years and can easily head large hives that are productive, thus the traits of these queens can be proven... second, the naturally mated breeder queens are mated with drones that all carry the desired traits, yet come from different lineages, so the daughters that you produce during grafting will not be full sisters... this is very important when one considers that the daughters will be producing drones themselves and will be used to requeen whole yards... this full sister daughters can quickly lead to inbreeding problems... third, the naturally mated breeders can head full size colonies, so the traits that are expected to be expressed in the daughters can actually be viewed in the grafting colony.

Hope this helps!


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## Beezly (Jun 25, 2011)

Outstanding! I believe I understand now. I just needed to wrap my mind around this. Your answers will indeed give me the proper direction to follow for future queen production.
Thanks again!
mike


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Beezly said:


> Ok,
> I'm not trying to be cheap, just trying to learn. There must be a difference. I get that the breeders are for rearing quality queens and probably should not be used for production. I don't fully understand this when queens can be quality layers for a couple of years. I have looked for the answers on Russell apiaries site as well as a couple others, but this is not answered clearly.
> Thanks again,
> mike


If you purchase a *Breeder Queen*, you're saving yourself time. Its that simple.
Time is money, right? 

Breeder Queens have been pre-selected by a queen breeder. You're trusting their knowledge, experience and art by choosing a queen deemed by them fit to be used for a queen mother or breeder: She will be used to make more queens.

About 15 years ago I was visiting a large Apiary and Queen rearing operation in the South of the USA. I spent the day with them, and while we were caging queens, one of the owners said:

"I need a select queen". The next queen that was caught was held up for everyone to see and the owner said: "There's a select queen!". She was caged and marked as "select".

Hopefully this doesn't happen often.:no:

Reputation and consistient success are two criteria that demark producers of breeder queens.
Breeding good stock requires huge time commitments extending over many seasons. 
Customers/clients of queen breeders should trust the breeder as he/she will be saving them time by performing much of the selection necessary to ensure quality bee stock.

If one is requeening a few or even 100's of hives, one would look for quality queens.
If one is going to *produce* quality queens and wants a *foundation of quality*, one would entertain purchasing breeder queens.


Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## Beezly (Jun 25, 2011)

Thanks for your reply Adam. Very inciteful. Interesting what you said about the "select" queen. I fear that it does happen alot. I will be getting my queens from reliable breeders. Thanks again.
mike


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I look at II queens (used as breeders) as a way of inserting certain genetics into your operation to be blended with your own. I spent quite a bit of money on some a couple of years ago and none lasted a year, but the effects of the genetics they bring are what you are really looking for. Select production queens are another matter, just remember that with them you are getting a queen that has already done significant egg laying and will have a shorter life expectancy for the purchaser. In my mind the most sensible way to go for most is simply to buy a number of newly mated queens from a reputable breeder and select a breeder (but not your sole breeder) from them a year later, just remember that what you want is genetic diversity. Hope this thread has debunked the "super breeder queen" perception that some have. If you only have a few hives, I would suggest not to try to raise all of your own queens but instead to buy 1 or 2 queens a year from various breeders.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Some of the old queen breeding bokks list queens in the following manner:
Untested
Tested 
Select
Proven
I.I.
On the topic of proven, you can try to choose a queen by her daughters and drones phenotypic traits. The genotypic traits are the actual genetic combinations such as yy for the Cordovan trait.
I.I. queens:
I have had some I.I. carniolan queens lay from April--June. I have also let them head a production colony just to see how they perform in my area.
Good luck in your queen production!
Here's the URL to an excellent web site for reading and ordering an I.I. queen.
http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> IIn my mind the most sensible way to go for most is simply to buy a number of newly mated queens from a reputable breeder and select a breeder (but not your sole breeder) from them a year later, just remember that what you want is genetic diversity.


That is an excellent scenario!

In addition, if a group of beekeepers work at this together, the selection pool increases,
the chances of selecting something great increases and the cost/maintenance of the breeding stock decreases.

A WINNER anyway you look at it! 


Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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