# 7 Frame Med. Hive Bodies



## Arlo (Sep 16, 2009)

I am wanting to build some 7 frame medium hive bodies like the ones Ralph Jones (YouTube) makes I am assuming the dimensions are 15" wide 19 7/8" long and 6 5/8" high, does that sound about right or does anyone have different dimensions?

Thanks


----------



## rfgreenwell (Feb 14, 2010)

All my 7 frame boxes are 12" wide X 19-7/8" long.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Arlo said:


> I am wanting to build some 7 frame medium hive bodies like the ones Ralph Jones (YouTube) makes I am assuming the dimensions are 15" wide 19 7/8" long and 6 5/8" high, does that sound about right or does anyone have different dimensions?
> 
> Thanks


Why?


----------



## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I recently bought some 8's from ML. They are 14" wide, which is enough to squeeze 9 frames into. You'd probably never get them out, once propolized, but I find the 14" excessive. They will make some fat combs, once drawn, easy to uncap. 

7 new frames are 10" wide, squeezed tight. 12", or 12 1/4", (outside) should do nicely - allowing 1 1/2" for overall wood thickness. 'Depends on how fat you want your honeycomb.

6 5/8" x 19 7/8" are correct for the other dimensions.


----------



## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Why?


That's what first came to my mind? You won't be able buy anything to fit. And in order to make a killer honey crop per colony you will need a serious amount of frames boxes and a heck of a ladder


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks for the back up, Tennessee. I'm usually alone and berated when I ask questions like "Why?".


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Check out Ralph Jones on YouTube he explains his reasons and it seems to work well for him without redoing all his work the gist of it is every cluster he's ever seen covers apx 7 frames wide. Also that most wild colonies will have an odd number of combs because they start in the middle and space them equadistant on either side


----------



## Arlo (Sep 16, 2009)

That is why I wanted to build a few boxes I found his reasoning to be valid.


----------



## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

I don't know anything about Mr.Jones's reasoning but why not just build or buy regular eight frame boxes and fill the left over space with a follower board or in the winter some insulation or a frame feeder? Seems you would hedge your bet this way.


----------



## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

rfgreenwell said:


> All my 7 frame boxes are 12" wide X 19-7/8" long.


I didn't know there were others that made 7-frame boxes. I agree with rf's dimensions; I use 3/4 plywood for the sides cut to 19-3/16 long, and butt the sides up to 3/8 plywood ends. I think mine are closer to 19-15/16 finished.

I have to agree with the "WHY?" comments, as 8-frames are standard. 

Before I knew better, I had several 7-frame boxes, then afterward learned that 8-frames are standard. That said, last year I shaved some frames down to 1-1/4 wide, and squeezed 8 frames into my 7-frame box for the brood chamber. I liked the results, as I had a good queen, and that box yielded a lot of brood.

Phil


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Arlo said:


> That is why I wanted to build a few boxes I found his reasoning to be valid.


Okay. Thanks. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't for some sort of wildass hair brained kookie idea. Glad to see it isn't. 

Everybody keeps bees their own way. Heaven knows I do. That's one thing I've come to love about beekeeping these days. All the different way to do it and the bees don't seem to mind.


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Harley Craig said:


> Check out Ralph Jones on YouTube he explains his reasons and it seems to work well for him without redoing all his work the gist of it is every cluster he's ever seen covers apx 7 frames wide. Also that most wild colonies will have an odd number of combs because they start in the middle and space them equadistant on either side


Yes, I've read in a few different places that bees like a central comb, in one of the old kings of bee keeping books as well, I don't remember if it was Doolittle or Miller, or maybe even one of the others. I also agree from what I've seen here that bees would like to start moving upwards once they have five to seven combs drawn. I've often thought of making up some seven frame boxes, I could then use a divider to get side by side three frame mating nucs in a single box, so there is another reason for you Mark.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Ralph Jones says seven frame mediums.
Michael Palmer says five frame deeps.
Michael Bush says eight frame mediums,
CP Dadant says ten frame Jumbos,
Brother Adam says twelve frame Jumbos. 
Emil Warre says the Peoples Hive size.

ISIS says chop their heads off.
The Pope says no birth control.
The ****es say kill the Sunnis.
The Catholics say down on Protestants. 
The Mormons say have five wives.
My wife says I can't!

I just keep getting more and more confused.


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I understand the point of going with fewer frames. I talked to a guy that did cutouts the other day and he said he normally sees 5 combs in feral hives, which begs the question, why go with 7 mediums when a 5 frame deep is a standardized size? It is, however, only standardized as a number, not with dimensions. Each makers 5 frame boxes seem to be a different width. A 5 frame deep sure is easy to work and not heavy.


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

odfrank said:


> Ralph Jones says seven frame mediums.
> Michael Palmer says five frame deeps.
> Michael Bush says eight frame mediums,
> CP Dadant says ten frame Jumbos,
> ...


I nominate this as post of the year! LOL


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

for those that want to see Ralph's thoughts here is his video, It uses some math to explain it as well, but I will admit, I don't know enough about it to offer an opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlWLCi0m4wQ


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Harley Craig said:


> for those that want to see Ralph's thoughts here is his video, It uses some math to explain it as well, but I will admit, I don't know enough about it to offer an opinion.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlWLCi0m4wQ


Heck I can't add up queen math correctly, I'm gonna pass.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

odfrank said:


> Ralph Jones says seven frame mediums.
> Michael Palmer says five frame deeps.
> Michael Bush says eight frame mediums,
> CP Dadant says ten frame Jumbos,
> ...


It's okay Oh-dee. It'll be alright. Things get better.


----------



## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

billabell said:


> I don't know anything about Mr.Jones's reasoning but why not just build or buy regular eight frame boxes and fill the left over space with a follower board or in the winter some insulation or a frame feeder? Seems you would hedge your bet this way.


Not a bad idea.


----------



## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

I often think its more important how the bees are kept then what they are kept in. Still resale value and ease of use has to be a factor.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A nuc with a virgin queen will not draw drone comb.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't regret doing all 8 frame mediums, and when they are full of honey I wouldn't mind a bit if they were a frame lighter. Personally I prefer not having to costom make every single thing, but I'm sure the bees don't care.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> I don't regret doing all 8 frame mediums, and when they are full of honey I wouldn't mind a bit if they were a frame lighter. Personally I prefer not having to costom make every single thing, but I'm sure the bees don't care.


......but for the guys that make all their own equipment anyways..... I was thinking about moving that route simply because if I figured correctly, I could get three boxes out of 2 8 ft boards instead of 2 and a partial......


----------



## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Thanks for the back up, Tennessee. I'm usually alone and berated when I ask questions like "Why?".


:applause: I was gonna ask the same thing..................:lookout: G


----------



## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

True but then think of all the extra frames and foundation. Perhaps one of the beauties of hobby beekeeping is that you can have it your way. I don't know the dimensions of 7 frame boxes but I know it will require more work than standard equipment.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> True but then think of all the extra frames and foundation. Perhaps one of the beauties of hobby beekeeping is that you can have it your way. I don't know the dimensions of 7 frame boxes but I know it will require more work than standard equipment.


that's a given, every thing happens quicker the smaller the box is, I'm finding this yr nucs you have to watch closely.


----------



## Shane Stroud (Jan 17, 2015)

I build 7 frame medium hives that are exactly 11 1/4 inches wide. I could probably jam the frames into the box, but I don't have to. I shave my frames to be closer to 1 1/4 inches wide (well, maybe more like 1 5/16), which is allegedly more "natural" spacing. I'm not sure if that's really a good or proper thing, but it does work, and the frames fit in the box. The bees haven't complained yet, so I suppose it's good enough for them.

This hive width allows me to make a migratory cover that is exactly as wide as a standard 1 x 12. No joints, so it's a solid top. The lid is made using all cross cuts that way. No fancy joints, and I don't have to rip boards to make them. I also make a screened bottom board that uses all cross cuts, so it fits in with my idea of simplicity.

Now, with that said, I use 1 x 8 boards to make the bodies, like most other people I know. The scrap that I rip off each board is used as an inner rim for what is essentially an inner cover. Yeah, yeah, I know. You don't need an inner cover with a migratory cover. Bear with me here. I put a hole in the center, tiny, vent slots in the sides, then throw a piece of canvas and wood shavings over the hole. This makes it a small quilt box for winter. I suppose that scrap could also be used to make an imrie shim, if I were to ever use one again. My bees tend to propolize the entrances shut, so I gave up on them, but it might work for some folks. Otherwise, someone could take the scraps and make a rim around a flat board, and make a quick and simple solid bottom board.

The whole concept of the box was to minimize waste. Like someone mentioned, I can make 3 hive bodies out of two 8 foot boards. I can make migratory covers without gluing boards together, so no leaks in the roof. And I get my winter quilt box from the scraps and a cheap piece of luan. It's cheap, efficient, and reasonably simple.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Shane Stroud said:


> I build 7 frame medium hives that are exactly 11 1/4 inches wide. I could probably jam the frames into the box, but I don't have to. I shave my frames to be closer to 1 1/4 inches wide (well, maybe more like 1 5/16), which is allegedly more "natural" spacing. I'm not sure if that's really a good or proper thing, but it does work, and the frames fit in the box. The bees haven't complained yet, so I suppose it's good enough for them.
> 
> This hive width allows me to make a migratory cover that is exactly as wide as a standard 1 x 12. No joints, so it's a solid top. The lid is made using all cross cuts that way. No fancy joints, and I don't have to rip boards to make them. I also make a screened bottom board that uses all cross cuts, so it fits in with my idea of simplicity.
> 
> ...


As someone who builds their own 8 frame equipment, I like this idea. What's your technique for shaving down end bars?


----------



## Shane Stroud (Jan 17, 2015)

I have read about folks using a bandsaw, table saw, and even a joiner. Those seem a bit dangerous, so I stack mine in groups of 4 and use a hand planer. That works for wood frames. Plastic frames probably require a saw, I guess. Never have shaved a plastic frame, but I recall reading about guys cutting them from deep to medium when drone frames only came in deep size. Knowing that, I suppose a table saw jig might be used to shave them.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Shane Stroud said:


> I have read about folks using a bandsaw, table saw, and even a joiner. Those seem a bit dangerous, so I stack mine in groups of 4 and use a hand planer. That works for wood frames. Plastic frames probably require a saw, I guess. Never have shaved a plastic frame, but I recall reading about guys cutting them from deep to medium when drone frames only came in deep size. Knowing that, I suppose a table saw jig might be used to shave them.


Thanks. I was trying to sort out a way to do it on my cheap table saw safely, but may just invest in a hand planer. If my math is right, couldn't one make 4 boxes from 3 1x8 boards if you cut 8 pieces @ 9 3/4" off one board and the remaining parts @ 19 7/8", 4 from each remaining board?

Edit: Never mind, had 86" in my head for some reason, not 96"


----------



## Shane Stroud (Jan 17, 2015)

I cut the sides at 19 1/8 and front/back at 11 1/4. I run a 3/4 rabbet 3/8 deep on 3 of the 4 sides of each front/back. Then I rip them down to 6 5/8. That leaves my scraps pre-sized with the rabbet to fit together perfectly as a lip for an inner cover, imrie shim, or bottom. I really should post some pics of my setup. 
I make my migratory covers with a 20" piece of 1x12, and lip made of 1×3.
My bottom board is made from 1x2, 23 inches long. Screen the bottom with a piece of #8 hardware cloth 8 by 16 1/2.
All cross cuts except the hive bodies. All standard lumber dimensions, readily available at Lowe's. Use a roll of screen that is 24" wide, and a 16 1/2 piece will screen 3 bottom boards. Zero waste.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

What does your parts cut layout per board look like? I utilize the scrap for shims, top and bottom as well. In the past I've used coroplast because I had it handy, but looking forward to just cross cutting 1x12's.


----------



## Shane Stroud (Jan 17, 2015)

I used to have this written down, but now it's all in my head. Guess I should put it on paper again.
I was buying 10 foot 1x12s for lids. The ones I got at Lowe's were about 3/4" over ten feet, so I got exactly 6 lids from one board. The ones I get now are pretty much dead on 10 feet, so there went that plan, unless I buy a thin kerf blade.

I'm buying everything in 8 foot lengths now, so I guess that messes up the numbers. I'll try to get my measurements together. Maybe that'll help.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Shane Stroud said:


> I'll try to get my measurements together. Maybe that'll help.


Thanks, no worries, I'll sort it out. Appreciate the info. I see you are in Pottsville. If you go to Ridout, it will save you a considerable cost on your lumber. Looking forward to building some of these. I think this is going to make life a bit easier.


----------



## Shane Stroud (Jan 17, 2015)

Ridout is definitely cheaper. The only problem I've ever had with them was getting 1×10 boards. I used them with two 1×4 boards to make 10 frame migratory covers, using only cross cuts. Ridout here doesn't carry 1×10 or 2×10. They say they can't sell enough of them to justify having them in stock.
They do carry a 12 foot 1×8, which makes two ten frame hive bodies.
We used to buy them by the dozen.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Yeah, I hear ya on the 1×10. That's what I use for my TBH sides. I was buying them at Lowe's, then realized the 1x12 at Ridout is still cheaper than the 1×10. I got all my 1×8 over at Ridout for my Lang. I'm just using butt joints, glue and screw, but figure they'll hold up ok.


----------



## Shane Stroud (Jan 17, 2015)

Here's my hive setup. I use Titebond III and narrow crown staples for mine. Never had one come apart. Yet. Screws just got to be too expensive.

I forgot to add that, if you make the hole in the inner cover the right size, it will fit a feeder jar, if you happen to feed yours. Just pop an empty hive body on over it and it's good to go.
Of course, that blocks the ventilation, but it works. If you want to just put patties or something like that up there instead, there's plenty of room for that.
I had to stop feeding mine because the wife starts calling the bees freeloaders if I do. Mine generally don't need it anyway. They tend to do pretty well on their own.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Shane Stroud said:


> Here's my hive setup. I use Titebond III and narrow crown staples for mine. Never had one come apart. Yet. Screws just got to be too expensive.
> 
> I forgot to add that, if you make the hole in the inner cover the right size, it will fit a feeder jar, if you happen to feed yours. Just pop an empty hive body on over it and it's good to go.
> Of course, that blocks the ventilation, but it works. If you want to just put patties or something like that up there instead, there's plenty of room for that.
> ...


That looks sharp. I think if I go this route, I might just make interchangeable tops and bottoms. I don't feed, but probably will be next year as I plan on selling some nucs, so will need to put the feed on them for comb. I do an inner cover/migratory similar to yours, just in case I need to put on a jar feeder. I like your vents.


----------



## Shane Stroud (Jan 17, 2015)

Thanks. I bevel those vents to keep rain out. They're shallow enough on the inner edge (1/8") that bees can't pass through.
I had initially considered using a top/bottom that is interchangeable. I may guinea pig that eventually, but I'm pretty much sold on screened bottoms. I've had a couple unpleasant experiences with things like mold and maggots living in the junk on a solid bottom board. That's probably due to lazy bees who wouldn't keep a clean house. But that smell was unforgettable, to say the least. And puking in a veil isn't something I'm interested in doing.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Shane Stroud said:


> And puking in a veil isn't something I'm interested in doing.


Haha! I imagine not. My bees are good housekeepers, luckily. Thanks again for all the info.


----------



## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Having built quite a few different types of hives in the past, the biggest drawback is (in my opinion), that there's -Too many frames! You may get weary of making them, buying them, trying to maintain all those boxes, And.... you will need more boxes, using smaller ones. I am considering some 12 " deep framed boxes, only because of the sq. inch-per-cut joint ratio. I'd like to keep it to 1 brood box, no matter what. Excuders & supers only above. You cannnot simplify and streamline by adding more parts. Just my 2 cents worth.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

That's a great point. I'm doing this mainly, for now, with the intention of selling nucs and keeping a couple going myself. I was going to go 8 frame, but for ease of build, dropping the 1 frame to utilize a solid top using 1x12 makes sense, and can work interchangeably as a bottom. For that aspect, it will streamline my nuc making. I can definitely see the long term advantage of going deeper with less frames, and figure that's probably where I'll end up one of these days when I get serious about framed hives.


----------



## Shane Stroud (Jan 17, 2015)

Deeper and/or more frames means more weight. When you reach a certain age, that matters more. 
Like most folks I know, I started with the traditional "two deep, 10 frame boxes" and medium supers. After the first time I had to lift the top deep off, I switched to all medium hardware over the next year. Then, I went to 9 frames with spacers. That worked okay with plastic frames, but was a nightmare with foundationless frames. Every inspection was like a cut out. Cross comb everywhere, every time I opened the box.
Then, once I got that all straight, I noticed that the bees seldom draw out the last couple frames in the box. I'm trying to get them to maximize use of space now.
I'm experimenting, and maybe this will be where I land. Maybe not. Time will tell. Either way, I am keeping bees, using my power tools, and having fun. And I'm teaching my kids to do all these things. Can't beat that.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Shane Stroud said:


> I'm experimenting, and maybe this will be where I land. Maybe not. Time will tell. Either way, I am keeping bees, using my power tools, and having fun. And I'm teaching my kids to do all these things. Can't beat that.


That's basically where I'm at too, experimenting. In addition to the 8 frame, I've got a medium long hive which I'm a fan of thus far. That probably has more to do with my familiarity on inspecting from a TBH perspective. Not lifting is nice.


----------

