# 4 lb package of honeybees arrives and 90% dead!



## lute1812 (Mar 1, 2014)

So what recourse?

Seller says it's my responsibility to file USPS claim as he bought insurance!

Went to the post office, they could do nothing, everything has to be done online was their only answer. Had the USPS Customer Service Manager write a letter stating that 90% of the bees were dead on arrival. He even took pictures of the package to show his children at home. Since I was at the front counter it was kinda like 'Showtime' for over an hour with the kids and adults walking by asking questions. That AM the package had aroused a stir amongst the postal employees on the dock, because there were a few straggler bees on the exterior screen. Requested a PS 1000 Form over the phone, since for some reason my .pdf's weren't being imported by the USPS website.

My Credit Card company, Discover, has a policy of refund if I'm not satisfied. 

So who has been in a similar situation? What route did you take? And the end results?


----------



## grhopper (Feb 26, 2014)

I haven't been in your situation, but in general, when shipping insurance is purchased, I would file a claim with the shipping company first. If they deny your claim, then go to the vendor and see if they will do anything. I would use the credit card claim as a last resort.


----------



## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

My understanding is that the shipper who bought the insurance must file the claim, at least that's been my experience with a shipment of dead queens. Shipper sent replacements and dealt with USPS himself.


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

They will only reimburse if it can be shown that the death is directly due to their handling of the bees. They have very specific guidelines for how the package has to be shipped, if not met, it doesn't matter how much insurance was purchased.

http://pe.usps.gov/text/pub52/pub52c5_007.htm#ep206434


----------



## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Were you guaranteed live bees upon arrival? Was it in writing?


----------



## lute1812 (Mar 1, 2014)

I just figured someone else has been down this road before.

I contacted the seller by phone yesterday and e-mail today. So we'll see what develops. As a last case act I can bounce back the charge on my credit card, because I received nothing for my purchase, irregardless who's at fault the seller or his contracted delivery service (the USPS that HE selected). I proved my case by the written notice from the USPS Customer Service Manager's letter of 90% dead at delivery.

As I said I can't be the FIRST one that has ever been in this seat. So I thought I'd run it by some here.


----------



## ginkgo (Apr 26, 2013)

I had two packages arrive mostly drowned. I don't recall exact details but believe we documented it at the post office annex including taking photographs and getting an employee witness statement. We had to pick up a special USPS claim form and complete it and submit to them. The shipper ended up reimbursing our credit card, I think. I presume the shipper carried insurance and got paid by the postal service. Took a while, I think, but worked out. I gave my survivor bees to someone whose package in same shipment arrived live.


----------



## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

If I have a queen shipment lost or killed in transit I make them good and file for the insurance as the shipper. The supplier shouldn't put that responibility on the buyer in my opinion.

Johnny


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

If you cancel the charge on your credit card the shipper will most likely step up and file the claim himself. Of course, doing business with that supplier is probably over at that point...

Ed


----------



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Intheswamp said:


> If you cancel the charge on your credit card the shipper will most likely step up and file the claim himself. Of course, doing business with that supplier is probably over at that point...
> 
> Ed


Hence the reason that LOCAL pickup is always preferred or even Local grown..


----------



## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

I ship glassware and from time to time those monkeys explode one. My customers recognize that we package them well and send us pics. We replace immediately (for customer satisfaction) and WE claim with USPS/ups. 

We would NEVER make the customer do that!!


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Have to chime in here: The problem is not with the shipper. Its with the purchaser. You went with the cheap route to save the dough and now you are unhappy with the results of your choice. 

For years people shipped bees by mail. Then the mail service started to ... lets say... suck. Some people still use it but its a BAD option for bees. There are alternatives but they are not cheap. If you search the internet you will find that we ... as do the few wise folks that ship bees rely exclusively on UPS. 

THE bad news is the Expense. The GREAT news is the satisfied customers who get fresh bees that are not baked... 

Our average success rate on the shipment of hundreds of packages a year has been in the 98.5% range for the last 6 years since we went exclusively to the "new" way of shipping.

We utilize UPS overnight air solely and have some other tricks up our sleeve to get them to there destination in superb shape. Build the box right and keeping them cool helps for sure. 

Time and heat kills enclosed bees. When you went with the mail you de facto bought time and possible heat. What more would you expect? 

This year our success rate is 100% if you exclude the guy in Montana who failed to warm up a package of bees that arrived at below the freezing point of water. 

We have shipped almost 400 packages so far this year and have 160 going this coming week.

If you get a chance take a look at the tracking on the following. Its a pretty good representation of what we do. The bees leave our hands at 6:30 pm in California and arrive all over the US in less than 30 hours from the time they came out of their parent hives... 

Put the following into Google and follow it through. This shipment was 12 hours and 8 minutes "DOOR to DOOR" 

1Z2348Y40141505055 

I could give you hundreds of other examples. 

If you buy from those producers who know the smart thing to do is use overnight air for shipped bees you will have two heart attacks. Once when you see the price of the shipping and another when you see how good the bees arrive. Better to have two than one.. the one you had from getting dead bees. 

Cherio as they say...... Good luck dealing with the post office and their "insurance." More tears on that vein have flowed than the current volume of the old Mississippi River. 

If we open up for more shipment you can go with the method you should have used originally if you get over your current hearth condition.


----------



## lute1812 (Mar 1, 2014)

Honey-4-All said:


> Have to chime in here: The problem is not with the shipper. Its with the purchaser. You went with the cheap route to save the dough and now you are unhappy with the results of your choice.
> 
> For years people shipped bees by mail. Then the mail service started to ... lets say... suck. Some people still use it but its a BAD option for bees. There are alternatives but they are not cheap. If you search the internet you will find that we ... as do the few wise folks that ship bees rely exclusively on UPS.
> 
> ...


I agree with much of your answer, but USPS was the only option given by the seller. I would have preferred UPS, as you stated USPS service ... SUCKS ... and I have had issues with USPS over the years. 

If the decision of selecting the delivery carrier and their options were at my disposal, where I could make that decision, I agree I bear the brunt of that shipping responsibility due to MY choice. But that was NEVER the case, therefore the supplier bears the accountability as they selected the CHEAPEST (and only) delivery option versus driving over 200 miles (one-way) to their location. I agree UPS is a by far superior service to USPS.


----------



## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

For packages and larger shipments of queens UPS is a good alternative to USPS. However on small queen orders UPS charges become cost prohibitive. I use USPS express mail and most shipments make it in 1 or 2 days. This year I have had a cpl that took 3 days but queens were fine. 

Johnny


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> 1Z2348Y40141505055 

Interesting that this "package" weighs 63 lbs according to UPS.




UPS is very good at what they do. But even UPS sometimes makes bonehead moves and kills shipped bees. You can read about _Matt1954_'s UPS disaster story here: 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...e-Farms&p=800592&highlight=weekend#post800592


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Broke-T said:


> For packages and larger shipments of queens UPS is a good alternative to USPS. However on small queen orders UPS charges become cost prohibitive. I use USPS express mail and most shipments make it in 1 or 2 days. This year I have had a cpl that took 3 days but queens were fine.
> 
> Johnny



I would agree 99% . Some locations UPS is better on overnight with the queens. UPS letter is a good way to go on 8 or less queens....


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > 1Z2348Y40141505055
> 
> Interesting that this "package" weighs 63 lbs according to UPS.
> 
> ...




Couple of notes: you are correct on the weight. This was a purchase of 7 three pound packages with 4 extra queens. 

As per the link about UPS "killing" them. I'm going to say its not UPS's fault under the rules the shipper tendered them under... The shipper was nuts to hand them over in the manner he did on a day that could kill them in your example. Why did he send them? Ignorance or stupidity?

In our package shipments we have eliminated almost all chances of ups killing them with a "stall or storage" as happened in your link. No driver, no distribution center, no trucking from distribution center to the planes. We haul them in an air conditioned van or trailer and they go from our hands being pre-cooled to the pods and on to the planes in less than 1/2 an hour. The planes are 100 yards away from where we unload them at 6:30- 6:45 Pm each ship evening. 

With this method the only chance of a stall or storage in their way of moving overnight air is a weather delay. Since I am blessed to be about the only package guy in the US with only UPS plane options each day ( Sacramento and Oakland) both within 60 miles of or farm we have the option of using either the close or the coolest location depending on the weather.

We charge accordingly but it makes for great bees............

Here is the last one to arrive that day, 

1Z2348Y40142107662

Look up the location... Miles from everywhere and the 70 year old newbie got them in great shape on a 90 degree day.. 

Happy customers....... I'm telling you...


----------



## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Maybe Ive just been lucky, and I have never asked them to handle a package, but USPS has done well with the queens I have recieved in the past. Priority arrives to me in 2 days from Tennessee and I have never had a problem, they call me at work, keep the package in the air conditioned office and even stay late if Im a few minutes late. Then they want me to open the package so they can see her. I guess its the perks of living in a small town. Sorry about your dilemma Lute, better luck in the future.


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

lute1812 said:


> I agree with much of your answer, but USPS was the only option given by the seller. I would have preferred UPS, as you stated USPS service ... SUCKS ... and I have had issues with USPS over the years.
> 
> If the decision of selecting the delivery carrier and their options were at my disposal, where I could make that decision, I agree I bear the brunt of that shipping responsibility due to MY choice. But that was NEVER the case, therefore the supplier bears the accountability as they selected the CHEAPEST (and only) delivery option versus driving over 200 miles (one-way) to their location. I agree UPS is a by far superior service to USPS.


Would you explain to me what gun the seller had to your head when YOU made the purchase. ????? Saying he gave you no option is a LOUSY excuse... You personally and no one else decided to choose the shipper with no option. Last time I checked you could have picked them up or gone with a different company. Are you serious???? Lame. Lame. Lame....

Do your homework before you purchase....

This sound like the young lady who purchased from us this past week to have bees shipped next week. Our website clearly says their are NO cancellations on order placed less than one week before its ship date. She even had her dad call me asking if I would relent and cancel after she found out that the peoples socialist republic of Minneapolis requires a PRE-inspection and authorization of the hive location before the bees are placed. ( get a load of that all you freedom lovers) She went on to tell me she had been working on this "bee thing" for a whole year and only after she order did she realize she painted herself in a pickle with the bureaucrat who either wouldn't or couldn't show up as she needed? 

Not sure why people think it shippers problem when they FAIL to do there homework .........Which in my opinion was clearly the case in your situation. Your shipper is not your mother. Wipe your own face.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Minneapolis requires a PRE-inspection and authorization of the hive location ...

This struck me as a bit odd, so I looked it up. Here's the Code: 
http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@clerk/documents/webcontent/wcms1p-116408.pdf
Search for "74.80" or just page down to it. 

Minneapolis does indeed require a pre-inspection of the site, and they charge a non-refundable fee of $100 to do so!  If they deny your application, no refund. :no:

Also, section (5) of this code prohibits swarm traps! :scratch: But if the beekeeper performs a "public service" by collecting swarms from areas in the community where they are "not desired", then they may exceed the otherwise set _maximum _hive limit for a period of 30 days.


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > Minneapolis requires a PRE-inspection and authorization of the hive location ...
> 
> This struck me as a bit odd, so I looked it up. Here's the Code:
> http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@clerk/documents/webcontent/wcms1p-116408.pdf
> ...



How anyone could vote for such an idiot who implements and enforces such a law is beyond me......... Must be enough of them in the big M I guess. 

I thought it was odd too but then again I hear the darnedest excuses when people are trying to weasel out of what they agreed to. I took her at her word but told her the bees were coming as per our purchase agreement which she checked prior to purchasing. I told her to go find another place to keep them or just resell them on Craigslist. When people try to make their problem mine I just shake my head and say "good day." This past week we had a guy on the east coast try to cancel 5 minutes after purchase as he was now " allergic" to bees. How he became seriously allergic to bees within 5 minutes of his online purchase is beyond my comprehension..... I hope he buys a semi load of epi- pens as his bees will ship this week as he ordered.

:scratch:X 100,000,000.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Do your homework before you purchase....

It is easy to say that (although it is good advice), but there is NO perfect solution for shipping live bee packages via any package carrier. UPS and USPS are the only choices (no Fedex). USPS does offer insurance (if the shipper chooses it at the time of shipping). UPS offers NO INSURANCE on shipments of live animals (which includes bees): 
http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/re....html?srch_pos=1&srch_phr=ShippingLiveAnimals

So for a prospective bee package buyer (small quantities) needs to evaluate the bee seller, but even if the seller ships UPS, if those bees die, UPS will offer no insurance/ no refunds. 

So the choice of the "best" carrier is _not _perfectly clear. Ship UPS and risk dead bees and no refund, or ship USPS (and purchase insurance) with the expectation that a dead package would result in an insurance payment. (Yes, you need to jump through all the insurance hoops to get your claim paid.)

The way I read the USPS regs, insurance is product purchased by the seller (shipper) and refunds (insurance claims) should be handled by the shipper. If the shipper thinks that is the customer's responsibility, to me that indicates a bad customer relations attitude on the part of the shipper. Look elsewhere for a more reasonable seller.

But exactly how a potential customer is to discern in advance what a shipper _will actually do _in the event of a dead package is not easy for most buyers to determine before placing an order. Certainly you should ask that question though.

Package shipping is another reason to join a local bee club even if you cannot attend every meeting. Many clubs have some kind of group purchase or group pick-up point for packages that avoid using either UPS or USPS.


----------



## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

Yes I would agree with all of the above re use of the post office for packages 

I would never accept package bees thru the post office. I have received packages thru ups from both honey4all and from koehnens (when they used to ship) all in excellent condition with very few dead bees. They were all with ups overnight. I know our driver also and I talk to him before the shipment arrives so he knows what to do with the bees if I am not here. 

With respect to queens I have had no problems with usps overnight even though it doesn't always arrive overnight. One time it even spent the weekend in the Grand Rapids center. Big difference between the heat and air demands between 3-4 lbs of bees and 5 bees per cage.

I'm not sure where you are located but you may try don lam for packages locally delivered to holland. Also the dadant in Albion mi will have a few extra packages on the 2 nd of may


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Radar..., maybe you know the answer.. When we dropped the postal service the insurance only applied to a zone about 500 miles or less from the shipper. Beyond that the purchase and hope of financial recovery was a mute point. Not sure of the current status, All I know as it was worthless from Sacramento to SLC when we used their service. The bottom line on my bailing on UPS was the time it took 11 days to get bees from us to ol Mass... Amazingly the bees were alive when they arrived but the mad customer thinking we shrifted him cause of the postal service delay was beyond my tolerance level. Dead bees and upset customers are not on my to do list.


----------



## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Honey-4-All said:


> .
> This past week we had a guy on the east coast try to cancel 5 minutes after purchase as he was now " allergic" to bees. How he became seriously allergic to bees within 5 minutes of his online purchase is beyond my comprehension..... I hope he buys a semi load of epi- pens as his bees will ship this week as he ordered.
> 
> :scratch:X 100,000,000.


So, I maybe missing so etching in your story, but are you saying you refused to cancel an order 5 mins after he placed it?


----------



## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Does ups handle bee packages differently than regular packages? I ask because I have a decent insight to my ups distro center given they are less than 5 mins from my home and office. I have often gone and waited for a package to show back up at the center because I missed the delivery and wanted it that day. I watch those monkeys load those trucks and I hate to think they would treat bees the same way.

Then, due to my location, I'm also one of the first stops on my driver's route. We get a few shipments a week so we are pretty friendly with our driver and quite often he tells me, "come see this". To which he brings me out to his truck that literally looks like they turned up on its in and poured the packages in.

Then there is my beloved driver. I have stood at the door when he is getting stuff out of the truck to run out and say "woah, those are ceramic mugs in those boxes!!" With him responding "guess I should stop throwing them then".

Not saying USPS is any better, I've personally handed them glassware to be shipped. Which was CLEARLY labeled "glass / fragile" in big red labels all over it. Right after telling them it was glass and they turned around, held the package out at arms length and dropped the package in the bin behind them. Why the hell would one do that, seemed passive aggressive almost, but I never gave them a reason (not there should ever be).


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Gilligan said:


> So, I maybe missing so etching in your story, but are you saying you refused to cancel an order 5 mins after he placed it?


Yes and here is the reason why. 

We only sell online. It is a nearly 100% automated and gives us time to put the extra effort into getting people great bees. Our website has all the pertinent information clearly listed and we never put a gun to someones head telling them tho hit the purchase button. We offer them under certain conditions with the full knowledge that people expect us to live up to those conditions ( which we do) while expecting them to only order under the contract we are offering. 

The website clearly says that any order placed within a week of shipping is not cancel-able. In other words... unless you are 100% committed "Do not order!!!" . If you call me I will tell you that in no uncertain terms. Do not order unless you are certain thats the route your are going to take the whole way. 

Cancellations cost us about $20 each in fees and take about a half an hour to process. Time that does not exist once we get to shipping time. 

If you send me a PM I will send you the link as I am not about to advertise on here contrary to Barry's requirements. 

For those of you on the purchasing side you have no idea how busy this time of year is. Not a spare moment baring an Easter Sunday off.


----------



## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Honey-4-All said:


> Yes and here is the reason why.
> 
> We only sell online. It is a nearly 100% automated and gives us time to put the extra effort into getting people great bees. Our website has all the pertinent information clearly listed and we never put a gun to someones head telling them tho hit the purchase button. We offer them under certain conditions with the full knowledge that people expect us to live up to those conditions ( which we do) while expecting them to only order under the contract we are offering.
> 
> ...


I own my own business(es), we deal with similar things as well. We also have to order goods based on customers orders 95% of the time. We take deposits before doing all of this and if caught in time we will cancel, if not caught in time we will still cancel and pass on restocking fees from our supplier as well as any shipping cost incurred. Now, there is a point of no return but it certainly isn't 5 mins after.

To me if the system is so automated then there should be an easily automated cancel process that can happen at least 5 mins after the order is placed. I order a LOT off amazon prime with free 2 day shipping and even with their extremely automated and streamlined system I can cancel things within a reasonable amount of time. Hell, they would let me return it and pay for return shipping I think if I changed my mind. Granted that is above and beyond, but that is part of their no hassle policy that keeps ppl coming back to them and ordering with confidence.

I can't say I'd ever have that sort of confidence purchasing from your company. This I think is contrary to what you are wishing to convey about your company.

I'd advise you to read "Customer Satisfaction is Worthless, Customer Loyalty is Everything" it is a great book that I wish all business owners would read.


----------



## topdog17 (Apr 6, 2009)

I know someone I will not be buying bees from. Sounds like he learned his customer service by selling on ebay.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Radar..., maybe you know the answer.. When we dropped the postal service the insurance only applied to a zone about 500 miles or less from the shipper. 

I don't "know" the answer. But you haven't specified the ship method that you were using (Priority, Express Mail, etc) so it is not easy to research this issue without that. As far as I am aware, the rules are the same for virtually all domestic US delivery points.

There are certain insurance claims that will be denied, but they appear to be centered on failure to use the right container to mail the bees in the first place. See: 
http://pe.usps.com/Archive/PDF/DMMArchive20110102/609.pdf
If your mailing container design was approved by the USPS in advance, insurance claims for bees _should _be payable.


Disclaimer: I, on behalf of my employers, have overseen spending millions of dollars at the USPS and spent plenty of time researching the DMM. But none of that mail was insured, so my experience in dealing with USPS did not include any insurance issues.

.


----------



## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Gilligan said:


> Does ups handle bee packages differently than regular packages? I ask because I have a decent insight to my ups distro center given they are less than 5 mins from my home and office. I have often gone and waited for a package to show back up at the center because I missed the delivery and wanted it that day. I watch those monkeys load those trucks and I hate to think they would treat bees the same way.
> 
> Then, due to my location, I'm also one of the first stops on my driver's route. We get a few shipments a week so we are pretty friendly with our driver and quite often he tells me, "come see this". To which he brings me out to his truck that literally looks like they turned up on its in and poured the packages in.
> 
> ...


I dunno how they handle bees.. hopefully slightly better. 1 guy has to load 3 trucks in 3-4hr with a few hundred packages per truck coming down the line at them for $8.50/hr. them getting 99% of the packages on the right truck is amazing in itself. 

if you are sending fragile stuff you need to pack it so that it will survive a war.. you think of how many times it gets moved from one truck to another.. through the belts and slides.. heavy stuff slamming into lighter stuff.. and stuff gets put in the truck by stop number.. so it could be on the top shelf and take a left turn and fly off. everyone at that place is pushed harder and faster than they should because of "logistics" 

i'd opt for office/hub pick up if i was ordering bees. just to avoid one more truck.


----------



## jrhoto (Mar 2, 2009)

As one who ships bees i can tell you only what the USPS tells us.We insure every package we ship to protect us and the customer.The shipment should have been refused if 90% of the bees were dead.The USPS tells us that the customer has to file the claim.We provide them with the paper work that shows shipping time and proof of insurance.This person's mail person or post office where she picked up the bees can help her if thy will.She can also file the claim on-line but by all means work with the local post office and supplier to resolve the problem,it is hard to ship package bees as UPS will no longer take them.

John poor valley bee farm


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

jrhoto said:


> it is hard to ship package bees as UPS will no longer take them.
> 
> John poor valley bee farm



Not sure where that came from.

As someone who has shipped almost 400 this year on UPS I beg to disagree. It might be that they are sick of dealing with leaking packages that are not well vacuumed and so poorly constructed they break apart on the line in Louisville in the middle of the night. Ever year I get calls from them on what to do when someone ships a standard bee package and it busts open.. If you are going to get them their safely you not only need to keep them alive but also need to be proactive in the construction of the build of the boxes so that the people down the line have no issue with bees baring a plane crash. We build them like tanks. Not once has a box of ours opened up for whatever reason on the line. 

As per the value of USPS insurance please explain to people how it really works and how valuable it is. 

The best insurance is to get them their fast and cool. It works so good that I am willing to give TOPDOG17 a free package on us if he can get anyone to sign an affidavit that they received a package from us in the past five years and met our requirement of giving same day notification as delivery of the failure who did not receive a replacement package or queen on us at no expense. We ask for proof. Give a call and send an email and be willing to send the dead ones back and your on. If you do so you will get another one. If you wait till the next day its on your shoulder as people do the darnest things to bees once they get them. TOPDOG you have one week to find the anyone.... GO....


----------



## jrhoto (Mar 2, 2009)

All i can tell you is the packages were new and well constructed and UPS told me they no longer shipped bees and if you need a phone number i will be glad to provide it for you.

John Poor valley bee Farm


----------



## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

I can assure honey4alls packages are built like tanks. I was quite impressed with the precautions! Also the packages from koehnens and also beeweaver I received thru ups were well secured and weren't going to cause any problems with but not like honey4 all's


----------



## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

the doc said:


> I can assure honey4alls packages are built like tanks. I was quite impressed with the precautions! Also the packages from koehnens and also beeweaver I received thru ups were well secured and weren't going to cause any problems with but not like honey4 all's


Good thing because their bees seem to come "as-is", might as well label it "for parts only"!


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Earlier this week I received an email from one of our customers with a thanks for the bees and a link to a flicker account that showed his installation of them. I asked him if we could share the link so that others could get a small picture of what we do. He has given me permission and even set up a special link. To check it out you may go to the following if you would like. It shows one of our single packs. We build them to protect the bees during and after shipment. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/buiford/sets/72157644139734491/


As per "The docs" comments I appreciate his input. As I am not exactly who he is or when he received our bees all I can do is tell you to PM him and ask him about his experience with our bees and their shipping. If their is any input that could make it better and still workable on our end I would love to hear them. 

If you have been in this industry very long you can verify that the number of people willing to go through the hassle of shipping bees has diminished tremendously the past few years. Great people like Honey bee genetics as well as Koehnens have stopped shipping via UPS because of high shipping losses and customers who refuse to understand the constraints at package time on every producers schedule. 

We strive to get every customer great bees in great shape every shipment. Are their failures sometimes? YES. Often? No. If people are willing to do as we say and install and feed them the night they get to the purchasers we are glad to replace any failures. All they need to do is do as we say regarding installation and notification. Pretty easy to do but not all folks are willing to do so. When it comes to those who are to stubborn or unwilling to follow our simple steps and they end up with dead bees the following morning when its either 30 degrees or 90 they are simply out of compliance under the terms they are shipped under and therefore out of luck. 

Anyone who takes a new dog home from the pet store and then decides it would be OK to leave it without food or water or in a baking car would be slammed in the state hospital if they demanded their money back. It baffles me how people can think that bees are any different except they might be considered more fragile. 

If you are looking for the low price leader look elsewhere. We are great at getting people to bees who are looking for both great convenience as well as great bees. It costs to do so and we charge accordingly. 

There are few who raise the queens and ship (USPS or UPS)their own packages. Most in the industry who do ship are re-sellers. We have not had a single package since 06 that has gone longer than a day out of our hives to the ship date. This was only because of weather constraints. This year we had to feed some on a rain day before they shipped (on one instance.) Otherwise every package in 2014 has been shook and shipped the same day. Literally less than 24 hours in most cases from hive to hive. If you can beat that or achieve the success rate we have be my guest. I welcome the competition.


----------



## oldfordguy (Dec 5, 2009)

Honey-4-All said:


> How anyone could vote for such an idiot who implements and enforces such a law is beyond me......... Must be enough of them in the big M I guess.


You're from California and you can say that with a straight face?


----------



## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

No one doubts your method of getting bees from point a to point b... It's the attitude for if things don't go according to YOUR plan.

*shrug*

I still advise you to read that book, you don't have to follow it if you don't want.


----------



## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

I ordered five queens a few years ago that were shipped USPS in an envelope mark LIVE BEES the mail man put them in the mail box on an unusually cold day in May and didn't notify me that they were there even though I had told the Post Office I had the queens coming. When I checked the mail box the queens were dead. I took them the next day to the post office talked to the person in charge, who said that the queens should not have been left in the box, was given some papers to fill out and mail in, did everything I was supposed to do which included contacting the queen breeder and he said he paid for the insurance and on and on for about three months with the Post Office. I never was reimbursed for my dead queens. That was about five years ago but I haven't forgotten it. I think it was $185 including the shipping.


----------



## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

sterling said:


> I ordered five queens a few years ago that were shipped USPS in an envelope mark LIVE BEES the mail man put them in the mail box on an unusually cold day in May and didn't notify me that they were there even though I had told the Post Office I had the queens coming. When I checked the mail box the queens were dead. I took them the next day to the post office talked to the person in charge, who said that the queens should not have been left in the box, was given some papers to fill out and mail in, did everything I was supposed to do which included contacting the queen breeder and he said he paid for the insurance and on and on for about three months with the Post Office. I never was reimbursed for my dead queens. That was about five years ago but I haven't forgotten it. I think it was $185 including the shipping.



Wow, we have submitted a few claims with USPS for glassware that was damaged and I'm not even sure if we ever had to even prove anything. I think we just said "hey, it was broke" and whatever else you do on the online claim form and then we got a check.

I do remember being surprised at how painless it was.


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

oldfordguy said:


> You're from California and you can say that with a straight face?


When I typed the above quote I knew someone would call me on it... You win the prize!!!


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

UPS will ship live bees only out of certain locations. When I tried to ship through them it was a resounding NO and they even produced a policy, when I asked to see one, that clearly stated no live bees. So UPS isn't an option for everybody.


----------



## lute1812 (Mar 1, 2014)

To update. Received refund from USPS 12 days after filing. Had a letter from USPS Customer Service that stated the 90% of bees dead so this undoubtedly accelerated that process.

Had a second package delivered (from a different distributor) via USPS on 5/23/14 and again this package was more than 95% dead and the seller refunded when I sent pictures and a letter from USPS Customer Service Manager. Both were 2-day delivery.

Guess I'll wait until 2015. Will try an overnight delivery since I cannot drive to pick up any package.


----------



## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

lute1812 said:


> To update. Received refund from USPS 12 days after filing. Had a letter from USPS Customer Service that stated the 90% of bees dead so this undoubtedly accelerated that process.
> 
> Had a second package delivered (from a different distributor) via USPS on 5/23/14 and again this package was more than 95% dead and the seller refunded when I sent pictures and a letter from USPS Customer Service Manager. Both were 2-day delivery.
> 
> Guess I'll wait until 2015. Will try an overnight delivery since I cannot drive to pick up any package.


Wow man, that sucks! Some one is screwing the pooch at USPS it seems.


----------



## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I wonder if there isn't another way you can get bees? Do you have a local beekeeping club? Maybe you could find someone locally who has nucs for sale?

Tom


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Guess I'll wait until 2015. Will try an overnight delivery since I cannot drive to pick up any package.

I agree with suggestions about trying for a local pickup with some kind of club purchase, but if that is not an option, in 2015 try to arrange your purchase so that the bees are shipped earlier in the year (less hot weather). 

If you haven't contacted anyone from SEMBA yet, it wouldn't hurt to do so ...
http://www.sembabees.org/toplevelpages/about.html

Aside from a possible assist with acquiring bees, I see they also offer extractor rentals.


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Gilligan said:


> Wow man, that sucks! Some one is screwing the pooch at USPS it seems.



Not sure how this is the shipper companies fault. Yesterday I saw pictures of relatives out having the time of their life boating on some lake in Michigan. If its nice enough for swimsuit weather in Michigan IT IS NOT the appropriate time to be getting bees in the mail. Head smack......... 

Thinking about it some more I'm changing that to a double head smack. BOOM BOOM !


----------



## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

definetly better to pick them up somewhere. our local group pooled orders and drove over 500 miles round trip to mann-lake in penn. the bees were from California. by the time they got to their new homes up near the border area of Ontario and quebec the 3 lb. packages averaged only about 15 dead bees per package. I would not have believed this if I had not seen it. this was on over 40 packages.


----------



## Beeonefarms (Nov 22, 2013)

Well if you decided on 2014 .. bees from wisconsin its a 6 hour drive out to you .... Air conditioning in the Rav 4 all the way... i could bring out at least 10 nucs. There are ways around the poor customer service of UPS. The people who care about bees are people who care for bees.


----------



## lute1812 (Mar 1, 2014)

Beeonefarms said:


> Well if you decided on 2014 .. bees from wisconsin its a 6 hour drive out to you .... Air conditioning in the Rav 4 all the way... i could bring out at least 10 nucs. There are ways around the poor customer service of UPS. The people who care about bees are people who care for bees.


Thanks.

I don't remember delivery of bees as an issue in the 60s and early 70s.. The service of especially the USPS has deteriorated badly, terrible employee attitudes, ... of course USPS is on the verge of bankruptcy. A report out last month declared that if the USPS folded now the US taxpayers/businesses would be responsible for over a guaranteed $100 billion $$$ in unfunded pensions. The Republican-controlled House of Oversight and Government Reform Committeed and approved a bill that would dissolve door-to-door delivery service for over 15 million in the US in an article entitled 'Committee OKs end to door-slot mail for millions' that would result in communal or curbside boxes for the pick up their mail, to aid the financially strapped USPS. LOL if you're a corner-lot as mine, because that's where they are going in.


----------



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Honey-4-All said:


> Have to chime in here: The problem is not with the shipper. Its with the purchaser. You went with the cheap route to save the dough and now you are unhappy with the results of your choice.
> 
> For years people shipped bees by mail. Then the mail service started to ... lets say... suck. Some people still use it but its a BAD option for bees. There are alternatives but they are not cheap. If you search the internet you will find that we ... as do the few wise folks that ship bees rely exclusively on UPS.
> 
> ...


I guess you haven't seen all the threads on UPS killing bees, spraying bees, and losing bees.


----------

