# True definition of "overwintered nuc"



## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I started making an selling nucs last season. I would like to advertise, but do not want to mis-represent what I have.

Does an overwintered nuc, have to be in a smaller box all winter?
I have almost all new queens that mated in 2015 and some got an early spring start and some mated after the solstice. Which also those that mated earlier got to 2, even 3 boxes tall (10f). I have a few that are still in the 5 frame boxes (last graft of season).

If I pulled, this coming spring, 5 frames out of the big boxes and put that queen in with it. Would that be considered an overwintered nuc?


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

I'ma thinkin it looks like, acts like, and quacks like. Yup, it's a overwintered duck. Sorry, couldn't help it.
If your not in a area where you don't have to feed for spring buildup, why not let them get five or six frames of brood going and offer them for a whole hive price. I would think you could get a extra C note out of it for not a lot of extra work.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I don't know if there is a bigger market for a full hive versus a nuc. Most of what I have experienced here in my local, is buyers, (starting hobbyist) want to get started with as little up front investment as possible. Which so did I when I started. Even as much as another 100 dollars might prevent a hobbyist from starting.

Maybe there is a market for full hives, but mostly on that front from what I've seen is commercial beeks buying them in bulk, not one or two. I will offer a full hive to anyone of course, but I think nucs sell more readily.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

I would not think that they would have to be in a smaller box all winter. Certainly the queen would need to have come through the winter, regardless of the size of the box.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

rookie2531 said:


> If I pulled, this coming spring, 5 frames out of the big boxes and put that queen in with it. Would that be considered an overwintered nuc?


That's what I do. My "overwintered nucs" are in 4x4 or 4x4x4 combs. The nuc boxes I use hold 5 frames. So I put into the box: 3.5 frames of brood, one good frame of honey, and all the bees that will safely fit. The rest of the combs and any bees left over go into boosting singles that I keep.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Thanks for the answers. This is what I was thinking, but wanted to be sure.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

I like that you are seeking out confirmation to advertise honestly. This last summer, a girl thought her hive was queenless and I went over to check it out with her. (neighboring farms). She bought an overwintered nuc that spring. Beautiful blue dot queen walking around inside it. Not sure how honest that sale was.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

None of mine are marked, but now that I have experienced catching and caging them. I think I will mark them starting this year. As you, I too think that the mark should have been green. I will mark mine, the year they are grafted.

Watching Mikes YouTube video on queens have handles, gave me the confidence to try, and marking them will be next. Thanks Mike.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

To qualify as an overwinter nuc it must contain a queen and bees that have overwintered together, brood from that colony in all stages and supplies to sustain then. a nuc is a nucleolus colony. it does not matter what it is in and how long it has been there. An overwintered nuc is a nucleolus colony that survived the winter, It also does not matter what it is in! However there is a difference between a Florida overwintered nuc. and New York overwintered nuc


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

I agree that a overwinterd nuc is one that has queen and brood that has overwinterd together that will be set to build up early spring. A head start on a traditional nuc. I bought 3 from a friend to start another bee yard. Pick up time in early March. He called me and told me they are building up fast and to bring him a deep brood box and frames , bottom board and cover. I had no interest in a typical nuc but a overwinterd one that will be ready for honey flow, now that I couldn't turn down.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

When you sell overwintered nucs, do you put them into a cardboard box for sale? I imagine giving away your wooden nuc boxes would be costly....

Also, I'm a little confused about the dot issue. If in '15 she had a blue marked dot, maybe the queen was marked right before sale? As in, no use marking a queen until you know she's going to overwinter?


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

Even so, the year she was born is the important info, not the year you found her.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

NewbeeInNH said:


> When you sell overwintered nucs, do you put them into a cardboard box for sale? I imagine giving away your wooden nuc boxes would be costly....
> 
> Also, I'm a little confused about the dot issue. If in '15 she had a blue marked dot, maybe the queen was marked right before sale? As in, no use marking a queen until you know she's going to overwinter?



Sure. It's possible he didn't have green paint and dotted it the next spring. And probably I'm thinking more likely bought nucs/queens and didn't think about the blue dot being the wrong year. So my little backstory doesn't help the thread since the OP pretty much nailed an over wintered nuc in definition and awseome they are checking before advertising. 

I sell medium nucs. And I don't sell over wintered nucs. The pros sell those. Plywood breaks down with little waste for medium sides. So I cut my ends out of pine, and but staple them to painted osb. That's what I use for nuc boxes. Cardboard would be easier, these are less expensive. I think off memory I get 16 boxes (sides) out of one sheet. So all in all the box is roughly $2 when I add bottom and top. (Which is 3/8 ply with pine runners.)


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks for that clarification SF - I didn't even realize there were overwintered nucs, and then non-overwintered nucs. If you make a nonoverwintered nuc, do you basically build it up during dandelion season? Would the nuc sell season be sometime around late-May?

I made several splits last summer which, after bears, ended up including 3 or 4 small hives (mostly 2 mediums) that I consider nucs because their queens didn't get mated until July, actually one (mated) queen I bought in August. Crossing fingers they overwinter well. I keep sugar bricks on them. If it works, I'd like to overwinter a couple every year.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

rookie2531 said:


> I started making an selling nucs last season. I would like to advertise, but do not want to mis-represent what I have.


I think to answer the question you have to ask yourself what your goal is for calling it an overwinter nuc? Are you demanding more money than a regular nucleus? If so... Why? What makes it worth more to your customer? Are you just hoping to attract more customers by calling it an "overwintered" nuc?

The bottom line is that if you make and sell a quality product it doesn't matter what you call it.

Honestly in KY I don't think you gain any advantage in adding "Overwintered" to your nucs for market.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tenbears said:


> To qualify as an overwinter nuc it must contain a queen and bees that have overwintered together, brood from that colony in all stages and supplies to sustain then. a nuc is a nucleolus colony. it does not matter what it is in and how long it has been there. An overwintered nuc is a nucleolus colony that survived the winter, It also does not matter what it is in! However there is a difference between a Florida overwintered nuc. and New York overwintered nuc


:thumbsup:

How much does "over Wintered" add to the value/price of the nucs you sell? Do people who sell nucs sell over Wintered nucs for more than nucs made up in the same calendar year?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Tenbears said:


> However there is a difference between a Florida overwintered nuc. and New York overwintered nuc


I would say not if it is sold to a local person.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> Honestly in KY I don't think you gain any advantage in adding "Overwintered" to your nucs for market.


Well put a dozen nucs down in front of your customers with 6 labeled "Overwintered" and see which ones go sooner. The customer is looking for an established nuc, a proven nuc, and a second year queen. The customer needs to know that swarm prevention is his top priority. A first year nuc or a package nuc not so much.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Well put a dozen nucs down in front of your customers with 6 labeled "Overwintered" and see which ones go sooner.


And add $10.00 to the price. Then you will see something. If the higher priced nucs all sell first, then raise your price on all overwintered nucs.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

The best policy, in my opinion, is just to be upfront about what you are selling. Labels like "overwintered" are easily misinterpreted, as many people often have conflicting opinions about what any given label really means (unless the definition is set by law where you live, and even then...). Just adding a little line to describe what you mean avoids issues over terminology.

Though what you describe wasn't really overwintered _as a nuc_, I'd consider it still qualifies as an overwintered nuc if reduced to nuc size for sale, as long as the queen overwintered and its her brood inside. Are "overwintered" nucs of higher value? I guess that would depend on your clients. Sure they are proven to have made it through their first winter trial, and that's an advantage, but on the other hand, the queen is also older, and thus will "expire" sooner and will be more likely to swarm. And while the overwintered queen has proven her ability to survive at least one winter, it also means that the seller has had time to evaluate her performance, and I've heard more than one story of less scrupulous beekeepers using nuc sales to get rid of their least desirable stock (overly aggressive, poor performance, etc.). I don't think one option is fundamentally better than the other. But the market varies from one place to the other, and in your locale, customers may have a preference, and may be willing to pay premium for it, whether it be overwintered or not.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> And add $10.00 to the price. Then you will see something. If the higher priced nucs all sell first, then raise your price on all overwintered nucs.


Perfect opportunity to try to upsell value here. Profit is not a dirty word. Personally I'd put a 25% delta on the overwintered nuc. Though she's older and possibly more prone to swarming, she is proven and that's worth something in my eyes. Sell the others as nucs with fresh "XYZ" queens. The market will tell you where they see the value and you can price accordingly in the future. I've got some nucs that are 3 nucs high. I don't sell nucs currently but I might in the future if the focused feeding and treating strategy I started this Fall pays off. Assuming a respective nuc makes it through winter in great shape and is getting swarmy in early spring, I'd buy 2 queens and split it up into 3 5-frame nucs, selling them exactly how I describe above.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Thanks for that clarification SF - I didn't even realize there were overwintered nucs, and then non-overwintered nucs. If you make a nonoverwintered nuc, do you basically build it up during dandelion season? Would the nuc sell season be sometime around late-May?
> 
> I made several splits last summer which, after bears, ended up including 3 or 4 small hives (mostly 2 mediums) that I consider nucs because their queens didn't get mated until July, actually one (mated) queen I bought in August. Crossing fingers they overwinter well. I keep sugar bricks on them. If it works, I'd like to overwinter a couple every year.


So yea. Most nucs you can get in NH are from people who are buying queens from the south (or Hawaii) and using their existing brood to make the nuc in the spring and then sell a couple weeks later. Troy Hall will sell nucs early, and they will be five frames and those frames and the existing queen come from an over wintered Nuc. It's an awseome way to go. You can't regulate integrity. (Salatin). So hopefully your beekeeper is keeping the nucs that came out of the winter poorly and will requeen them for himself and only sell you what he/she would want to buy themselves. Wouldn't that be ideal? 

So I sell spring nucs. The dandelion flow here isn't dependable. But yes before or around then I have swarm cells. So the nucs get supered and 10 days after graft I break those supered nucs down to 5 frame nucs and add a cell. Roughly 80% take. And about a month later they are for sale up north. If I keep them down south then people here get a nuc too late to make honey. If I bring them up north it's a southern mated queen that has to overwinter up north. Kinda a lose lose huh? Wouldn't it be awseome if they were just local over wintered nucs from an honest local queen breeder who can try to make up for their mistakes if they make one?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Acebird said:


> The customer is looking for an established nuc, a proven nuc, and a second year queen. The customer needs to know that swarm prevention is his top priority. A first year nuc or a package nuc not so much.


Kentucky doesn't quite present the challenges to wintering bees that we see here in the northeast. The years I spent in KY I easily wintered nucs in 5 frame medium boxes, often with near 100% success... That is something I am not able to duplicate in the northeast.

If person dumped a package from GA into a nuc box in KY in the spring, left it in a nuc configuration for a year and sold it as an overwintered nuc the following spring... Would it be worth more than a spring split from an established hive? 

Winter being what it is in KY, short and mild, is why I stated that I don't think being overwintered gains you anything there.

Now I would also say that the people in the north/northeast who over winter nucs arn't really doing it for monetary benefit. It's a numbers game and they sell surplus when surplus is available to be sold. If the winter is exceptionally hard and they loose many, the overwinetered nucs are kept to make up loses instead of being sold.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

In my mind an over wintered nuc would have to sell for a big premium. To me a good overwintered nuc has so many possibilities not to bring a big price difference. I'm further South so keep that in mind. Our overwintered nucs would be ready to move up into full size box by February so it's ready a lot earlier than spring made nucs, or you can keep it and run it for honey production, or you can let it grow and split it again in mid to late March. With that many options it has to bring more money.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Yes, my overwintered nucs are sold at a premium and in a very limited supply. Plus they are available in March vs. May (and later). The queen was made in July/Sept timeframe and has carried her bees through our usually very mild winter. These 5 bar nucs seem to gear up really quickly and make a full size hive with a little spare honey for the customer's first year. I still can't make enough spring/summer nucs to met the demand in this area. I may need to focus on the local queen bit so that someone can requeen with a local gal in July, but still get an early package to get their comb drawn and stores put up.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I too think overwintered nucs are more valuable. That is one main reason, i asked the question. Giving someone a strong nuc during the maple/dandelion bloom, is better than getting one during the locust/poplar bloom. If you get a nuc too late, you most likely have to feed, until the fall flow anyway. So yes, overwintered nucs are more valuable.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What about overwintered Queens? If someone overwintered nucs and in April harvested and sold the queens, would you pay more for them than queens produced in March of that same year?


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

What good is a queen without her colony? I would say no. The thing about nucs is they are already functioning as a unit. When you buy packages and install queens, they have a long way to go to get into sync with each other. That's the benefit I see with overwintered nucs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"What good is a queen without her colony?" Seriously? You don't buy queens?

If you overwintered a two story 5 frame nuc and split it, wouldn't a queen come in handy?


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Oh, I love to buy pure Russian queens. Don't get me wrong on that. But when you're comparing an overwintered nuc to just a queen, I'd go with the whole enchilada.

Otherwise, I make my own queens, thru splits. I can't throw away a perfectly good swarm cell.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> What about overwintered Queens? If someone overwintered nucs and in April harvested and sold the queens, would you pay more for them than queens produced in March of that same year?


I wouldn't.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

NewbeeInNH said:


> What good is a queen without her colony?


I agree Mark. Put her in a pack of bees that are not her's I would say you got a package.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> Kentucky doesn't quite present the challenges to wintering bees that we see here in the northeast.


Common now, CT. winters are like mine or milder. For a local acclimated nuc the winters are a cake walk for bee. Winter is the lease of my worries. It is when we don't have winter that it gets dicey. Yesterday in the 50's today and the rest of the week 19 and snow. Can you believe it we still got broussel sprouts and chard in the garden. It is the middle of Januaray!


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## KillaBeezs (May 9, 2015)

Acebird said:


> I agree Mark. Put her in a pack of bees that are not her's I would say you got a package.


Lets go down this with a hypothetical. Say I overwintered 4 two frame mating nucs (and got really lucky to get them through up here in MA). Then tossed those two frames with resources from other hives in the yard to make 5 frames. 

We have a laying overwintered queen with many of her bees, even though the majority of the nuc is from elsewhere in the yard (could be package bees or other overwintered colonies)....would this be a "overwintered" nuc.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Oh, I love to buy pure Russian queens. Don't get me wrong on that. But when you're comparing an overwintered nuc to just a queen, I'd go with the whole enchilada.
> 
> Otherwise, I make my own queens, thru splits. I can't throw away a perfectly good swarm cell.


You completely misunderstood what I meant. Maybe I didn't explain myself clearly.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I agree Mark. Put her in a pack of bees that are not her's I would say you got a package.


You didn't get what I was referring to.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Don't stop there what were you referring to?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

KillaBeezs said:


> Say I overwintered 4 two frame mating nucs.


Mating nuc through the winter ... I'd be asking a million+.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Tenbears said:


> there is a difference between a Florida overwintered nuc. and New York overwintered nuc


:thumbsup:

"Overwintered", to many, generally means that the colony has survived cold conditions. It's more than just turning the pages of a calendar...


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

When I sell an overwintered nuc, I will charge a higher price for it. It is an established colony, proving it can make it through my local winter conditions. When I sell my late spring splits, that is what I will sell them as: spring splits. In my opinion, they are not yet a true nuc. Therefore the price will be lower than the overwintered nuc price.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What are those prices, Matt903? How much difference?


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

I will charge $175 for an overwintered nuc in early April. As soon as the drones are flying, I will graft queens. The cells I will place in splits, they are usually back and laying around May. I will sell these spring splits in late May. I will charge anywhere from $125 to $150 depending on the market. I already have deposits on half of the overwintered nucs.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

What do you put your nucs in to sell? Cardboard nucs?


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

I did use cardboard, but the bees chewed through the air holes over night. I am using Jester boxes this year, more expensive but no bees flying everywhere on pickup day.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Wonder if you could charge a $10 deposit for the box, refundable when they return it?

I guess you have to put your own wooden frames in there too. That adds to the price also.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Matt903 said:


> I did use cardboard, but the bees chewed through the air holes over night. I am using Jester boxes this year, more expensive but no bees flying everywhere on pickup day.





NewbeeInNH said:


> When you sell overwintered nucs, do you put them into a cardboard box for sale? I imagine giving away your wooden nuc boxes would be costly....
> 
> Also, I'm a little confused about the dot issue. If in '15 she had a blue marked dot, maybe the queen was marked right before sale? As in, no use marking a queen until you know she's going to overwinter?


I make d. Coates style boxes. The cost is a little more if they want to keep them. Every buyer last year wanted to keep them.

If I mark my overwintered queens this spring, they will have a blue dot, not a white dot.


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## yukonjack (Mar 12, 2015)

We're new bee-havers. Bought a package last spring for May delivery. Loved every minute so far (well, mostly).

For whatever market research value it's worth;

We put in an order/reservation for two "local, survivor, overwintered nucs" from Mr. Lindhal at http://www.hillsidebees.com, out of his yard.

They are not advertised, they do other packages and nucs, I just called and asked for specific nucs from his survivors this winter.

Even more specifically these are in medium boxes/frames.

It didn't occur to me to ask about who owns the hardware or if I'd need to return it (duh-oh).

All I really cared about was getting a head start on our new hobby in the Spring, and the benefits of the survivor/overwintered genetics.

I was trying to take the best of what I'd gleaned from Beesource in our second bee-buying operation.

Even now, I'm not sure I care about the cost of the box (though I will be sure to ask next time - live and learn), $15 either way, for hardware, on the cost of the nuc isn't a deal-breaker for us.

FWIW


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

Youkon. That has been my experience so far. Folks just want to buy a good product, and don't care to pay a little more for it.


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## KWFisher (Jan 15, 2016)

Dominic said:


> Sure they are proven to have made it through their first winter trial, and that's an advantage, but on the other hand, the queen is also older, and thus will "expire" sooner and will be more likely to swarm.


I Agree Dominic.

Also: it is of my belief, and I think scientifically, the first year on a new queen produces more eggs daily than any other time of her life. Do I want a queen that is 6 months old when I buy her? _Food for thought._
I also know if you run an advertisement to sell queens and state that they are "6 months old" you may have a hard time selling. But put a advertising twist on it "Over Wintered" , _per say_, and you can sell them.... So is it just marketing or is it a 'value' added situation. I have watched this "Over Winter" angle grow in the last several years with some trepidation.

For the record, I do overwinter nucs in FL. I do sell a few. I use lots in my own operation. It is a different animal than a spring nuc or a summer nuc. They all have their place.

_Your Mileage May Vary_


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## KWFisher (Jan 15, 2016)

D Coates said:


> I've got some nucs that are 3 nucs high.


Sounds more like you have a "hive" contained in 3 nuc boxes.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

KWFisher said:


> Also: it is of my belief, and I think scientifically, the first year on a new queen produces more eggs daily than any other time of her life. Do I want a queen that is 6 months old when I buy her?


I believe exactly the opposite. And yes I do if I had a choice. A second year colony has a much stronger urge to swarm then a first year colony and that takes a large workforce to accomplish. A queen that shows signs of weakening will be replaced. Why are so many queens replaced by their workers with new packages? Are you suggesting they are old queens? I think they are new queens that are weak.


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## KWFisher (Jan 15, 2016)

Acebird said:


> I believe exactly the opposite. And yes I do if I had a choice. A second year colony has a much stronger urge to swarm then a first year colony and that takes a large workforce to accomplish. A queen that shows signs of weakening will be replaced. Why are so many queens replaced by their workers with new packages? Are you suggesting they are old queens? I think they are new queens that are weak.


The package bee queen is Apples to Oranges.
A package bee shows up with a queen that was never in that 'swarm' of bees until the day it shipped.
Commercial raised queens, more than not, are only allowed to lay for a few days before being caged..I do not trust this method. But it is how 90% of commercially available caged queens are raised.
You are possibly using the comparison of 'poorly' raised commercial queens for your debate. Of 1st year vs 2nd year queens which is most likely mated in a nuc. At least mine are because I believe it takes longer than 4 days to assess the health of a queen.

But on the remark of 2nd year queens. I do believe it depends on how you operate. In which everyone is different, which is why I do say "Your Mileage May Vary" My bee's are working 11 months out of the year so I may be working them harder than bee's in other areas being managed under other circumstance.

I will try to find the study I remember from years back that actually counted egg laying vs age of queen.

But we are starting to get WAY of the thread topic. I apologize.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

KWFisher said:


> My bee's are working 11 months out of the year so I may be working them harder than bee's in other areas being managed under other circumstance.


I certainly would not consider a queen that has worked 11 months and gone through winter to be an overwintered "nuc" the following season. I can't imagine anyone else would consider it the true definition of an "overwintered nuc."


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Matt903 said:


> I did use cardboard, but the bees chewed through the air holes over night. I am using Jester boxes this year, more expensive but no bees flying everywhere on pickup day.





KWFisher said:


> I Agree Dominic.
> 
> Also: it is of my belief, and I think scientifically, the first year on a new queen produces more eggs daily than any other time of her life. Do I want a queen that is 6 months old when I buy her? _Food for thought._
> I also know if you run an advertisement to sell queens and state that they are "6 months old" you may have a hard time selling. But put a advertising twist on it "Over Wintered" , _per say_, and you can sell them.... So is it just marketing or is it a 'value' added situation. I have watched this "Over Winter" angle grow in the last several years with some trepidation.
> ...


I think that the reason people want the overwintered nucs are for the honey crop the first year. She is already laying after the winter solstice and gearing up for the spring flow. Not being mated during the flow. That is the value. You can always replace her right before or even after the flow with a new one, but your workforce is already there, while the mating nucs are being made for next year's crop.

Where does the honey come from? The girls from an overwintered queen or the queen that isn't even born yet?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

*The quest for magic bees*

I think what it comes down to is that there is a constant quest for magic bees that live and produce honey without human intervention. People place added value on "feral Survivors", "over wintered" nucleus, "acclimated" bees, "treatment free" etc. Nobody can agree on what a true definition of any these terms is, but call your bees any of these things and a premium can be had. 

The people who pioneered the overwintered nuc didn't do so for financial gain. If you happened to live in the northeast and were to buy an overwintered nuc from Webster or Palmer you would find that their prices for them are competitive with local prices and there isn't a markup due to it being overwintered. If you were to check the area prices you would likely find some prices higher and some lower. 

The added value for a nuc arguably comes mostly from the fact that the producer is loosing valuable drawn comb and part of his/her honey crop is going to go towards re-production of those combs. Plus the obvious jump start that is contained within the open and sealed brood that comes in the nuc.


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## yukonjack (Mar 12, 2015)

*Re: The quest for magic bees*



bluegrass said:


> I think what it comes down to is that there is a constant quest for magic bees that live and produce honey without human intervention.


Maybe. I'll cop to looking for "magic" bees that live and produce DESPITE my human intervention.

My observation (via this forum) is that the only thing real beekeepers agree upon is that all beekeeping is local.

So, not having the expertise to differentiate the value or impact of all the other variables, we're going to "buy local" to the Northeast; bees that have lived and produced in the Northeast.

The subtext of this thread is as much about labeling and whether or not what I want to buy is what someone is _actually_ selling.

Buyer's must beware, but sellers are obliged to be truthful.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

*Re: The quest for magic bees*

Actually, my goal is more to grow local than to buy local. I'll see how my queens do this summer after they started as queen cells and were locally mated last summer. Knocking on wood they survive long enough to tell, of course. Otherwise I may be faced with another summer of focusing on reproduction instead of production.... My goal is to be done with reproduction for now, except for a few starter nucs to overwinter with next winter. That's the plan anyway. 

I should nail my plan, enumerated, onto the hives. Maybe the bees are just unaware.


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## yukonjack (Mar 12, 2015)

*Re: The quest for magic bees*



NewbeeInNH said:


> I should nail my plan, enumerated, onto the hives. Maybe the bees are just unaware.


hehehe


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: The quest for magic bees*



bluegrass said:


> If you happened to live in the northeast and were to buy an overwintered nuc from Webster or Palmer you would find that their prices for them are competitive with local prices and there isn't a markup due to it being overwintered.


Betterbee makes a distinction between Overwintered Nucleus with Northern Queen item NUC15 and a Spring Nucleus with Mated Queen item NUC2. It is a call for price but my guess is the NUC15 is more then the NUC2.


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## KWFisher (Jan 15, 2016)

Acebird said:


> I certainly would not consider a queen that has worked 11 months and gone through winter to be an overwintered "nuc" the following season. I can't imagine anyone else would consider it the true definition of an "overwintered nuc."


I think you took that out of context.
The 11 month queen is NOT being wintered as as a NUC it would not even be close to a nuc. Not what I meant to say if it reads that way. That was the secondary question about the life of a queen.


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

*Re: The quest for magic bees*

When I sell a hive a bees and I have labeled them "overwintered", because that is what they are. It has been my experience that a nuc coming out of winter will build up quickly and possibly make a crop of honey if conditions allow. That is why the price for these bees is higher than a split made in May and sold in June. It seems that some think if we give bees one label or another, it is somehow misleading or dishonest. If I label my bees a certain way, it is because I am trying to be up front with what I a selling.


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## KWFisher (Jan 15, 2016)

Lets Get the thread on track:
*What is the definition of an "Overwintered Nuc"?*
I think it would behoove us to all speak a similar lanquage.
To answer that we need to know;
When does a nuc graduate to a Hive? Is it time, size, population, the box its in?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

KWFisher said:


> *What is the definition of an "Overwintered Nuc"?*
> When does a nuc graduate to a Hive? Is it time, size, population, the box its in?


To answer the question: an over wintered nuc does not exist. 

Now lets look at some background.

1. Brother Adam overwintered nucs as a place to store queens, in the spring he harvested the queen out of the nuc and the nuc got re-incorporated into production.

2. Kirk Webster popularized the over wintering of nucs here in the northeast, he isn't on the forum to comment so I will defer to Mike Palmer who popularized it nationally after Webster taught him how to do it. I would also venture to say that Mike likely has diverged some from Websters methods some.

However Mike has demonstrated how he does it on here and in various talks around the world. By his own admission his overwintered nucs are 12 frames, which make them slightly larger than a single colony.

Come spring he pulls 5 of the frames and the queen and makes it a nuc. Which is the same as if I pulled 5 frames from an overwinter production hive and put them in a nuc box with the old queen. (which people would call a spring made nuc with an old queen, not an overwintered nuc).

How is that for speaking one language


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## KWFisher (Jan 15, 2016)

bluegrass said:


> To answer the question: an over wintered nuc does not exist.
> 
> Now lets look at some background.
> 
> ...


Very well stated. _Applause_


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

bluegrass said:


> To answer the question: an over wintered nuc does not exist.
> 
> Now lets look at some background.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I grasp what you are trying to say. Some beekeepers overwinter 4-frame nucs (typically in deep with a division board, both halves being completely independent and having their own queen). They _don't_ take the queen out in Spring. And this is in Canada, not California. These usually grow strong enough to be used for the first commercial pollination. How do overwintered nucs "not exist"?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

bluegrass said:


> To answer the question: an over wintered nuc does not exist.


:scratch:

I think you're confusing Brother Adam's overwintering of MATING nucleus colonies and pulling the the queens to requeen production colonies in the spring. 

Overwintered nucs most certainly do exist.


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## KWFisher (Jan 15, 2016)

Dominic is correct. I can not remember who it was I spoke with from Canada that was wintering in Styrofoam 5 Frame nuc boxes inside of a building.
I think Bluegrass' opening statement was a little too broad. But he fingered the point that a lot of producers dance around when selling 'overwintered nucs'.

Which brings us right back to our topic.
*True definition of "overwintered nuc"*


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

bluegrass said:


> To answer the question: an over wintered nuc does not exist.
> 
> Now lets look at some background.
> 
> ...


Not sure if I read it right, but I believe Brother Adam would set up 2 nucs for each hive to overwinter. He would also move the old queen into a nuc and introduce a fresh queen into the colony.

I believe Mike Palmer overwinters 4 frame nucs side by side, sometimes on top of a 10 frame colony.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

gnor said:


> I believe Mike Palmer overwinters 4 frame nucs side by side, sometimes on top of a 10 frame colony.


That was Kirk Websters method, which I don't believe worked all that well.... (didn't Kirk loose everything several years ago?) Mike does his side by side in vertical configuration of 4 frames per box stacked 3-4 boxes high, so 4x3 or 4x4 frames in each "nuc".

Essentially the philosophy as I see it is as follows. (Using small numbers to keep it simple)

A man owns 100 double brood hives which contain 2000 brood combs and 100 queens.

At the end of a really hard winter he has 50% losses and is left with 50 hives, 50 queens... he now has 1000 frames he has to repopulate.

But if before winter he raises extra queens and instead of leaving 100 queens on 2000 frames, he breaks those hives down into 12 frame nucs he can now winter 166 queens on 2000 frames.
at the end of the winter he has 50% loses, but now has 83 colonies which is a lot easier to get back to 100 than 50 is. 

So say he has a really good winter and his losses are only 20% so at the end of the winter he has 133 queens and only needs 100 production colonies... he has a net gain of 33 12 frame colonies which he can sell at a profit by removing the queen and 5 frames and selling them off as nucs, then re-incorporate the remaining frames back into his existing 100 production colonies. 

Over simplified, but this is the basic philosophy of wintering nucs. It makes perfect sense from a management standpoint if you think of it as a management method.... I think it becomes troublesome if you start attempting to promote it as a magic method of obtaining bees that are proven to survive. A person can raise spring queens off of overwintered colonies and those daughters would have the same winter survival rates as the mother queens who just overwintered under same circumstances.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

gnor said:


> Not sure if I read it right, but I believe Brother Adam would set up 2 nucs for each hive to overwinter. He would also move the old queen into a nuc and introduce a fresh queen into the colony.


Now to answer this separately as I understand it Brother Adam divided boxes into 4 chambers, so the nucs contained 5 half frames. He wintered 4 half nucs on a hive. He preferred to winter hives with older queens, but liked production hives to be headed by a queen in it's second year. So in the spring he would squeeze the old queen in the production hives and replace them with the younger 2nd year queens from the nucs. 

I don't know that you will read this in any of his books, but this is the way it has been relayed to me by Mr Little who operates the mating stations on exmoore now days.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

bluegrass said:


> I don't know that you will read this in any of his books, but this is the way it has been relayed to me by Mr Little who operates the mating stations on exmoore now days.


Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey describes his requeening method quite well. And his introduction methods for those queens.


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

An overwintered nuc does not exist.....:scratch: I guess the 70 i have must be a figment of my imagination.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Dominic said:


> Some beekeepers overwinter 4-frame nucs (typically in deep with a division board, both halves being completely independent and having their own queen). They _don't_ take the queen out in Spring. And this is in Canada, not California. These usually grow strong enough to be used for the first commercial pollination. How do overwintered nucs "not exist"?


Are they doing this outdoor or in cellars? If in cellars as I believe is the common method that is a totally different conversation as it's a controlled environment... not truly over wintering. 

I have overwintered single nucs when I lived farther south with great success, but I haven't been able to replicate it with any level of success here in New England.

I don't know that we will be able to come to any sort of agreement on what overwintering of a nuc is or is not. I am skeptical of a certain bee supplier here in the northeast who sells over wintered nucs using Mike Palmer's method. They pre-sell these and charge a premium for them.... I haven't heard of them refunding money because of a higher rate of failure than they expected, which most certainly has to happen from time to time. Ironically they make their overwintered nucs available for pickup at the same time their southern produced nucs arrive.... 

There really isn't any way to ensure as a buyer that you are getting what you paid for... it is 100% taking the sellers word for it.


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## KWFisher (Jan 15, 2016)

Matt903 said:


> An overwintered nuc does not exist.....:scratch: I guess the 70 i have must be a figment of my imagination.


The farther south the more likely it is. I do it by the 100's in FL. There is some 'confusion' in the northern states of what a 'overwintered nuc' is compromised of. When someone can say I have a nuc that is 4 boxes high, you have to wonder. Then when the magical new spring queens are added to the other 3 five frame boxes, are they all sold as 'overwintered nucs' Or even just taking the one box that has the 'old' queen and selling it?

Mine are in a single 5 frame nuc box covering 4-5 frames of bees. But that is Florida. It's not easy but I can do it. It is way easier than doing it in the north country.
I actually call mine "FALL" nucs because the queens are mated in Oct. and Nov.

I'm just fishing for information, I may want to start keeping 'overwintered nucs' in PA.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

bluegrass said:


> Are they doing this outdoor or in cellars? If in cellars as I believe is the common method that is a totally different conversation as it's a controlled environment... not truly over wintering.
> 
> I have overwintered single nucs when I lived farther south with great success, but I haven't been able to replicate it with any level of success here in New England.
> 
> ...


Those I know of do so inside, though I have read of techniques for doing so outside and heard of some doing it outside, but I have no idea how common this is or how successful they are. Even inside, it's still being confined in cold temperatures (**~4°C) from November to April or so. Is it as harsh as outside? Maybe not... but the overwintering losses in Québec don't differ much between those who do so outside and those who do so inside, the slightly higher losses outside being easily explainable by the fact that most large commercial beekeepers bring their hives inside, and most new and hobby beekeepers leave them outside. And despite the colder temperature outside bees being subject to, they also get more frequent cleansing flights and dibs on first blooms. So with this is mind, I consider northern nucs overwintering inside still have a considerably greater trial those nucs "overwintered" outside in California.

That being said... I knew I had seen a document about overwintering nucs outside. I couldn't find it, but now that I think of it, it might have been in the paper version of the Ontario Beekeeping Manual which I don't have on hand right now. However, I did find this from a beekeeping in Manitoba: http://mbbeekeeping.com/wintering-2-frame-nucs-in-manitoba/ That guy... heats his outside nucs, though? That's kind of a novelty to me, the accounts I had heard of mostly spoke of grouping them and providing extra insulation, not actually heating them. I attempted to overwinter a few nucs last year, with zero success, though I intend to try again next season.

It's not, however, standard practice to charge more for overwintered nucs, here. Nor are they really advertised as such, they are mostly referred to as "Spring nucs" (which can either have been overwintered as a nuc, or as part of a larger colony), as opposed to "Summer nucs" (or "season nucs"), which are made with a queen from the season in question, thus in June at the earliest.

As for the initial question, I stand by my original reply: it's best to simply elaborate on what you are selling than to limit oneself to one-word descriptive tags. I'd consider a Spring split to be an "overwintered nuc", because it's a nuc made from bees that overwintered. Apparently, at least a few here have a different opinion, I believe on the basis that the emphasis needs to be the fact that the colony overwintered as a nuc. I don't really see the value in counting the number of frames the colony overwintered on, though.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

bluegrass said:


> To answer the question: an over wintered nuc does not exist.


I disagree, of course. 

To start, "A rose by any other name smells as sweet".

So what am I supposed to call a small colony, started from 1.5 frames of brood and a new queen? Yes they build up to 8 frames or 12 frames, but they aren't production colonies. And what about mating nuclei? I take them into winter on 8 mini-combs. They aren't production colonies. They aren't 4x4 colonies. What are they? After winter, they're still nucleus colonies and I think they can be considered overwintered nucs. 

As far as my nucleus colonies that are wintered on 4x4 or 4x4x4 go, and what I sell come spring...The small colonies started in June or July do build up onto enough combs to be considered equal in strength to a single. Now, I could keep them in a 4 frame cavity, but it takes some serious management time to do so. The extra combs are mostly honey come Fall. This insures they have room for the growing colony and enough food for winter. Come spring, the small colonies begin filling combs of brood, and using up the honey. By sales time they have 3-6 frames of brood. Obviously an 8 or 12 frame colony with 6 frames of brood isn't going to fit into a 5 frame nuc box. So I add a good frame of honey, 3-4 frames of brood, the queen, and as many of her bees as will fit in the box. That way I insure the customer is getting an excellent product. The extra combs of honey and brood are united with other 4x4 colonies until the strength of a production colony, and go to my production yards. 

And as far as the queen being an "old" queen come spring, I disagree. Bro Adam claimed queens were best in the year after their mating. From what I see, I have to agree. And, this gives me time to evaluate those new queens. Rather than saying they're old queens, I would call them "tested" queens. 

So I guess, to me, it's just semantics.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Semantics, yes. I don't know why some folks even get upset about this. It's a bit like buying a car. Model year, mileage, care, and the reputation of the seller all enter into the equation that determines value. With "nucs" its size, queen age, health, type of equipment, seller reputation, and time of year that are the key ingredients. Call them what you will.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> I disagree, of course.
> 
> To start, "A rose by any other name smells as sweet".
> 
> So what am I supposed to call a small colony, started from 1.5 frames of brood and a new queen?


The way I understand it, you overwinter 2 colonies side by side, each smaller than a production colony, and they survive by clustering against the divider and sharing heat. Come Spring, you can remove the empty supers, they are still in a 4 frame box. That's a nuc.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Thanks for your input Mike. 

So to clarify for those who seem to be confused. The nucs you make and sell are put into a 5 frame configuration in the spring prior to sale, not the fall before? 

To me it doesn't matter when it is made up... I think a man's reputation is worth more than what the product they sell is called.. I think calling a nuc "overwintered" is completely un-necessary and just over complicates understanding for the customer.

Mike do you advertise your nucs or do they sell themselves? 

My take on it is this: I would describe my product as what it is... 5 frames drawn with bees/brood/food and a laying queen. (5 frame nuc) I think all we need is our reputations. 

No offence to anybody here on how you do things or what you sell... The point I wanted to illustrate is that there isn't a standard and we are not going to come to an agreement on one... Now days we see people selling 5 frame nucs that are only 4 drawn frames and a frame of foundation.....


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

bluegrass>> thanks for clearing this up for us!
(ps: an overwintered nuc does exist, believe it or not.)


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

bluegrass said:


> Thanks for your input Mike.
> 
> So to clarify for those who seem to be confused. The nucs you make and sell are put into a 5 frame configuration in the spring prior to sale, not the fall before?
> 
> ...


Well, I don't really know what you're getting at with all this, or where you're going. 
But, yes, I put them into a 5 frame box in the spring. No, I don't advertise. 

Look, I start the colonies in the summer. I have to add combs to them so they won't swarm, abscond, or starve. In the spring, I sell some. The queen and her bees have overwintered. Of course, they are building population, so some are new this season. I stuff them into a nuc box and sell them as overwintered..which they are.

I think what you're trying to say is that there is no difference between a spring split to which you give a purchased queen, and an overwintered nuc that has a queen raised the previous summer. Am I close? Well, I can say that the difference is remarkable. Anyone here who has wintered nucleus colonies, and seen how they explode come spring, and experienced how much better they perform when compared to the spring splits that they have raised in the past, will confer. So I would have to say that an overwintered nucleus colony, in the condition I have described above, is worth more than a 5 frame spring split.

Ahh yes. We do see folks selling substandard rubbish, with miserably poor queens, brood diseases, and broken foundation...for too much money. That doesn't prove your point. There is a difference.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> There is a difference.


So how about we give you credit for setting the standard such that if someone is selling an "Overwintered Nuc" it should be assumed it is to your standard unless someone admits that it isn't. Personally if it is not to your standard it is not an overwintered nuc and I felt this way prior to this tread being started.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Michael Palmer said:


> Look, I start the colonies in the summer. I have to add combs to them so they won't swarm, abscond, or starve. In the spring, I sell some. The queen and her bees have overwintered.
> 
> I think what you're trying to say is that there is no difference between a spring split to which you give a purchased queen, and an overwintered nuc that has a queen raised the previous summer. Am I close? Well, I can say that the difference is remarkable. Anyone here who has wintered nucleus colonies, and seen how they explode come spring, and experienced how much better they perform when compared to the spring splits that they have raised in the past, will confer. So I would have to say that an overwintered nucleus colony, in the condition I have described above, is worth more than a 5 frame spring split.


I also use your summer make-up method to overwinter nucs. It is your method which I have adopted and use in my apiary. Previously I didn't overwinter nucs, only full size singles or doubles. Always kept a few nucs around during the year for queens but that was it. This 'new' way for me has been a bee yard blessing.
The explosive growth and production of a overwintered nuc is the reason I don't sell them!! They are to valuable to me as honey makers. My overwintered nucs when grown into production hives regularly produce 3+ mediums of honey, on Long Island. This is nothing to sneeze at. At $12+ per pound these +90lb colonies are just to valuable to me to sell for a couple of hundred dollars in
the spring.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> Well, I don't really know what you're getting at with all this, or where you're going.
> But, yes, I put them into a 5 frame box in the spring. No, I don't advertise.
> 
> I think what you're trying to say is that there is no difference between a spring split to which you give a purchased queen, and an overwintered nuc that has a queen raised the previous summer. Am I close?


My point makes perfect sense in my head, but I guess I don't articulate it well 

I will attempt to summarize.

OP asks about how to define an overwintered nuc to his customers so as to not cheat them. 

I ask what the motive is as I can sell more nucs than I can possibly produce without telling customers that they are overwintered so I don't see a reason to call them overwintered when there isn't actually a standard and everybody's definition is going to be different.

OP doesn't respond to motive question so I assume it is financial. OP and others define their overwintered nucs as nucs wintered on top of a strong colony or on top of each other. To illustrate the point about definitions being different I refer to your practice where the "nuc" which is over wintered is actually more than a 5 frame configuration and gets broken into the nuc in the spring, leaving the "old queen" in the nuc instead replacing with a fresh queen. (hence definitions very)

Okay so back to motive: Everything I have seen you say about overwintering nucs you do so in the format of how to do it successfully for "sustainability" in your own operation. Profit from the over wintered nucs isn't part of the discussion that I have ever seen. I have also ordered a nuc off of you several years ago for a friend in your area and when we spoke you never mentioned "overwintered". You admit you don't advertise them.... So my assessment is that for you, profiting off these nucs is secondary and not your primary motive. I know for a fact that betterbee is selling southern spring split nucs at a higher price than you get for you "overwintered" nucs.

I know I don't have to tell you this, but for the benefit of anybody reading: More goes into raising and selling bees than just getting a nuc through the winter and selling it at a higher price than a regular nuc. There are many other elements that need to be assessed to pass off a quality product.... If you sell a 1000 nucs which winter well, but don't make surplus honey than what is the point? 

Now back to another point on motive: I asked where the value was in an over wintered nuc over a spring split and the answers I get are roven queens", "own prodigy" bla bla bla... When you make your nucs are you introducing the new queens onto her own prodigy? Off course not... do you value that new nuc any less than you do after it wintered? I wouldn't. The queens I raise are coming from my best stock, stock that has been proven to winter well... The mothers are alive so the daughters are already proven to be from good wintering stock. If you made up a nuc and was asked to sell it in the fall would the price be less than if you were to sell it in the spring?

So essentially my point is that the OP might have his priorities all wrong on this product. If you want to be truthful with your customers and develop a rapport/reputation so you don't have to advertise, you don't need any niche describers to sell your product.

Hope that kinda clears it up?

I do disagree with you on what a nuc is though. I like the historical definition which is a nucleus centered around a queen. Although what you winter isn't a production colony, it is still larger than a nucleus so I would call it a horizontally challenged single. It becomes a nuc again when you break it into the 5 frame box and sell it off. 

Another thing you said peaked my curiosity.


> an overwintered nuc that has a queen raised the previous summer. Am I close? Well, I can say that the difference is remarkable. *Anyone here who has wintered nucleus colonies, and seen how they explode come spring  and experienced how much better they perform when compared to the spring splits that they have raised in the past, will confer.*


*

When you use your overwintered nuc to start a production colony do you use the 5 frames configuration you sell or do you give the production colony all of the frames the nuc was on over winter? If it were me I would give them all the frames, which I think we would agree has a different outcome than just starting them off with 5 frames of brood and stores.*


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> To illustrate the point about definitions being different I refer to your practice where the "nuc" which is over wintered is actually more than a 5 frame configuration and gets broken into the nuc in the spring, leaving the "old queen" in the nuc instead replacing with a fresh queen. (hence definitions very)


Yes, there can be many nucs made from the colony that overwinters but only one "overwintered nuc". Betterbee makes a distinction in value from $175 to $230 respectively. That is significant. You are trying to claim that there is no difference between the two and several people disagree with you. Did you buy an overwintered nuc from M. Palmer or just a standard one? From the way you speak I am not sure you knew what you bought and I don't blame M. Palmer. The OP doesn't want to be in the dark and wants to know what the acceptable definition of an Overwintered Nuc is before he sells his nucs. It has been stated in this thread and he can go about his business.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I guess the easiest way to break it down is this:

Overwintering a nuc is a manipulation, not an end product. 

Much like "treatment free", interpretation is broad. Just because a person buys "treatment free" bees does not guarantee that those bees will survive for the buyer with continued treatment free practices. Just because you buy a "over wintered" nuc is not a guarantee that those bees will survive the following winter. 

So we are back to the value question? Without a guarantee of survival where is the value? 

I am not making any comparison between spring or fall nucs. I am saying that Mike Palmers bees are worth whatever he gets for them because of his reputation as a beekeeper. 

I am willing to bet that Mike doesn't charge anywhere near what Betterbee wants for an "overwintered nuc" and probably not even as much as they charge for a southern made nuc. As I hinted at before; as a prudent consumer it would be very unwise to pay the extra for an overwintered nuc from a dealer who also sells southern split nucs for less money, as you have no way as a consumer to verify what you are getting.

Brian: the bottom line is I think there is too much focus now days on making a quick buck off of niche bees than on actually building a reputation and selling a quality product. But that is my opinion of course.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Did the OP's question ever get answered on what exactly qualifies as an overwintered nuc?

I'm more confused than ever.

But I'm just going to stick with my original gut feeling: an overwintered nuc is a nuc/small hive that has been one group of bees since last fall and is still one group of bees.

It's bound to be smaller just coming out of winter, when you only have the remaining winter bee population, and probably most of the honey stores gone. I can see why you'd condense a single medium or 2 into a 5 frame nuc at that point. The colony condenses itself. You would just move it into a smaller house. 

The colony is more valuable because they have proven they can survive the winter (in our harsh climates I mean), and they are already functioning as one unit instead of the whole "meet and greet" getting-to-know-you period that a package with a new queen goes thru. By the way, surviving the winter would mean they're probably lean and mean with food stores and bee population. They're not spendthrifts or nonsensical about what it takes to get thru winter. Some queens/colonies are just more winter hardy than others. And when you raise mutt queens, you can't be entirely sure at first, until they prove themselves that first winter.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Also, I consider my mid-summer-made 1 and 2 medium box hives as nucs because they are still gearing up and never made it anywhere close to production stage. They have too much space in there, but that's the equipment I have, and I'm pretty sure they need more vertical space than just one box. Seems easier to move up and down over frames of comb than to tiptoe side to side through comb frames. I wouldn't condense those into smaller housing come spring because I expect they'll expand pretty quickly, but they *could* be fit into a nuc box and sold as a nuc at that time, and can do their spring expansion in someone else's equipment.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

New Bee:

There are many videos of MP's nucs come spring, they are not condensed in any sense of the word. They are using every frame that they wintered on. When he actually makes the nuc not all the bees go into it and not all the frames. 

I am not degrading his method. I just feel there is a general mis-understanding on what it is.

As I said before, essentially he pulls 5 frames, some bees and the queen from a single colony and that is what he sells, any remaining bees and frames/brood get utilized in other areas of his operation. I don't think there is anything wrong with this practice just to be clear, I am just pointing out that the buyer isn't getting all the resources of the nuc.

To put it into a different perspective I could make a 5 frame nuc in March the same way, off of a overwintered colony. I could double stack this new nuc and make it fill out 10 frames. Come June I can split it back down to 5 frames and sell the original nuc as an over wintered nuc and keep the additional 5 frames to make a new nuc to over winter the next season... Probably sounds unethical to some when put into that perspective? 

Mike is very open about how he does this, so he isn't deceiving anybody.... the confusion comes from peoples own personal mis-notions.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Did the OP's question ever get answered on what exactly qualifies as an overwintered nuc?


Yes, this is what is key as stated by M. Palmer:


> The queen and her bees have overwintered.


Where is the confusion?

The size of the colony can be any size but not a full year old. In other words you can't take a production colony, overwinter it and then package it into a nuc size the following spring and call it an overwintered nuc because the queen is too old.



> I am just pointing out that the buyer isn't getting all the resources of the nuc.


If the buyer were to get all the resources of the colony it wouldn't be a nuc it would be an overwintered colony with less than a year old queen and worth even more than the "overwintered nuc" package. Bluegrass would you expect someone to sell the whole colony for the same as the nuc size? That doesn't even make sense.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Acebird said:


> If the buyer were to get all the resources of the colony it wouldn't be a nuc it would be an overwintered colony with less than a year old queen and worth even more than the "overwintered nuc" package. Bluegrass would you expect someone to sell the whole colony for the same as the nuc size? That doesn't even make sense.


Then we agree that Mike Palmer doesn't overwinter nucs


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I am bowing out of this one now.

No offence to anybody and I want to be clear that I am not picking on Mike Palmer. I have a lot of respect for the man and if I wanted to make my living off of bees I would follow his management framework.

Only reason I keep referring back to Mike on this is because his methods are easily verifiable as he has always been very willing to share his knowledge and experience.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

bluegrass said:


> To put it into a different perspective I could make a 5 frame nuc in March the same way, off of a overwintered colony. I could double stack this new nuc and make it fill out 10 frames. Come June I can split it back down to 5 frames and sell the original nuc as an over wintered nuc and keep the additional 5 frames to make a new nuc to over winter the next season... Probably sounds unethical to some when put into that perspective?


Actually that wouldn't seem unethical to me, because you're selling the queen along with her bees, who have overwintered together. The excess bees that you don't include in the nuc you can make a new hive out of BUT you have to put a new queen in there. To me, that makes all the difference. The overwintered nuc has their established queen with them. The new nuc is back on the proving ground schedule. Will she make it overwinter next year.

In cases requiring sage advice, who else do we turn to but wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuc

"Nucs, or nucleus colonies, are small honey bee colonies created from larger colonies. The term refers both to the smaller size box and the colony of honeybees within it. The name is derived from the fact that a nuc hive is centered on a queen, the nucleus of the honey bee colony."

How many edits does a beekeeping wiki entry get? LOL.

Look at this quote from the link: "A nuc is not normally intended for overwintering, as nuc colonies do not possess a large enough winter cluster to survive winter in harsher climates. Beekeepers often combine nucs together in the fall to produce a single, strong colony. This results in the loss of all but one queen, but provides a colony capable of surviving winter. In warm climates, nucs can overwinter. Nucs can also survive winter indoors, or in an observation hive."

Okay beekeepers, start your edits. This will keep you busy until spring rolls along. Heh heh.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> Then we agree that Mike Palmer doesn't overwinter nucs


No, I can't say that. Only he can say what he is doing. He has explained when he makes the nucs. They start out nuc size some time in July. You would expect them to grow some or else he would have to rob them to keep them 5 frames. Why he would do that is beyond me cause that doesn't make sense. You seem to be hung up on they have to start out as a 5 framer and end as a 5 framer when he sells them. I could be wrong But I think you are the only one that thinks that way. You also don't believe there is a value in a 5 frame nuc that has a queen overwintered in a colony with her own bees even though I have made reference to Betterbee, a known supplier pricing such a nuc higher.

We just don't agree here.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Acebird said:


> No, I can't say that. Only he can say what he is doing. He has explained when he makes the nucs. They start out nuc size some time in July. You would expect them to grow some or else he would have to rob them to keep them 5 frames. Why he would do that is beyond me cause that doesn't make sense. You seem to be hung up on they have to start out as a 5 framer and end as a 5 framer when he sells them. I could be wrong But I think you are the only one that thinks that way. You also don't believe there is a value in a 5 frame nuc that has a queen overwintered in a colony with her own bees even though I have made reference to Betterbee, a known supplier pricing such a nuc higher.
> 
> We just don't agree here.


Think Michael starts out at two 4 frame NUCs in a deep super and then places two 4 frame NUC boxes on, one over each half of deep. So he winters a 4 over 4. Is this still a NUC? I think a 4 over 4 is a small colony with all elements available to become a full sized hive. I do know this is a pretty secure way of having the NUCs alive in the spring. They share the heat of the adjacent NUC and have sufficient stores. In the spring he packs the queen and the bees into a five frame box. 

Meets my definition of an over wintered NUC and any beekeeper will be more than pleased with the product.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

bluegrass said:


> To put it into a different perspective I could make a 5 frame nuc in March the same way, off of a overwintered colony. I could double stack this new nuc and make it fill out 10 frames. Come June I can split it back down to 5 frames and sell the original nuc as an over wintered nuc and keep the additional 5 frames to make a new nuc to over winter the next season... .


You have strong enough colonies with enough brood to make a nuc in March, in CT? And your "nuc" isn't ready until June?? And you see no difference? Okay then.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

mgolden said:


> So he winters a 4 over 4. Is this still a NUC? I think a 4 over 4 is a small colony with all elements available to become a full sized hive.


If I buy a four frame nuc and put an empty box on it I would still call it a nuc. At some point the four frame will grow into the empty four frames on top and you can now call it a full colony. Where is the black and white distinction? I don't know. The nucs I bought were 5 deep frames put into an eight frame box. My first one there were three frames of foundation put in. The second one purchased the following year I had drawn comb so I put three of those in. As you would expect the second one grew faster not only because the bees didn't have to draw the comb but there were more cells that the queen could lay in the first day I brought it home. I considered both nucs as nucs until I put the second box on then I considered them full colonies. The only purpose for asking for a definition of an overwintered nuc is if you intend to buy or sell one at the point of sale not months before or months later.


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## KillaBeezs (May 9, 2015)

A nuc is a small colony. Look over numerous anti-swarming postings where many people recommend taking the old queen and making a nuc using her and some of the full colony to prevent swarming (or do we need to rename this as well). The age of the queen does not matter nor does the size of the colony that the resources were taken from. The main factor is that the nuc is fully working as one small unit. So yes the op can call it a overwintered nuc and so can M Palmer. 

As a side note it would seem that overwintered nuc is actually not worth as much ROI (return on investment) as a summer nuc. You could sell overwintered nucs for a 20% markup but unless your overwinter nuc losses are less than that you would make more money overall on selling the summer nucs before winter. 

The whole point of overwintered nucs in the north is to replace dead outs and weak colonies to maintain a sustainable apairy. Then sell the leftovers for a small profit if desired. And the queens are more valuable in the north as they are proven to be able to handle the northern winters. A southern overwintered queen is likely the same or less value then a well mated new southen queen (at least to me).


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

KillaBeezs said:


> As a side note it would seem that overwintered nuc is actually not worth as much ROI (return on investment) as a summer nuc. You could sell overwintered nucs for a 20% markup but unless your overwinter nuc losses are less than that you would make more money overall on selling the summer nucs before winter.


Who wants to buy a nuc at the end of summer? The real pain is getting them to survive thru the winter. I'll let *you* do that part and then I'll just buy them from you in the spring.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

bluegrass said:


> I am not degrading his method. I just feel there is a general mis-understanding on what it is.


No. I don't think there is. 
I think the OP knew what he was talking about and wanted to double check,
Palmer knows what an overwintered nuc is, and simply added more detail/process to the thread, 
heck, 'overwintered nuc' just by the name is pretty easy for everyone to guestimate what it, in fact, is. 

Splitting hairs on a bald head,
thats what's horizontally challenged


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

If I were to buy a nuc advertised as an "over wintered nuc" I would e spect that those 5 frames, bees and Queen had over wintered as one unit and now we're being offered for sale as the same unit that over wintered together. Anything other than that would, in my opinion, be false advertising.
Just my 2 cents.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WBVC said:


> I would e spect that those 5 frames, bees and Queen had over wintered as one unit and now we're being offered for sale as the same unit that over wintered together.


The problem is if you limit the nuc to just 5 frames that go through a northern winter it might not make it. So a smart guy will have more than 5 frames go through the winter and then trim it down a little before the sale. The consumer, (buyer) gets what he wants and the producer gets what he wants so what is the problem? I don't see one. I don't live in the south but I still think that there is a value in an overwintered nuc in the south. If you want a new queen by all means buy one but you have zero history on that queen. Just because it comes from a great line of genetics doesn't mean it has those genetics.


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

bluegrass said:


> To put it into a different perspective I could make a 5 frame nuc in March the same way, off of a overwintered colony. I could double stack this new nuc and make it fill out 10 frames. Come June I can split it back down to 5 frames and sell the original nuc as an over wintered nuc and keep the additional 5 frames to make a new nuc to over winter the next season... Probably sounds unethical to some when put into that perspective?


Only if you put the original queen in the March nuc. Then it's sketchy, IMO. 

But I don't think it matters in June if the nuc is "overwintered" or not. 

I can get local, overwintered nucs here in March, in which the queen is fully accepted and laying, rather than spring nucs with introduced queens or nucs with new local laying queens in May. To me it's worth $15-25 more to get the extra month or two growth.


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