# epipens?



## twinbee (Jul 24, 2012)

I'm finishing my first year and was wondering what NON-allergic beekeepers think in general about keeping an epipen in the house in case of emergencies. I recently tried to get one and even with insurance covering part of the cost, it was 170 dollars, and the shelf life is less than two years from what I understand. Given that I and my family are not allergic, and the neighbors are far away, what is the general consensus on this?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've never seen an epipen... I saw a picture of one once on a bee forum...


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I understand your concerns twinbee. I purchased one when I first started, though my cost was much less than what you are stating...more around the $50 mark after insurance. It is a decision that you will have to make. Keeping bees around the house will mean that there *will* be more honey bees flying around the yard, it's only normal. Concern for others is natural. My pen has since expired...as of several months ago. I feel no urgent need to refill the prescription, but I may refill it one day...my choice. It's your decision...your comfort level. I would imagine that only a small percentage of beeks have epi pens on hand, though.

One caveat... If you do buy a pen, *before* you purchase it or hand over your prescription to the pharmacist, ask to see the expiration date on the pen. As you mentioned, epi pens are good for +/-18 months, but if the pen has already set on the drugstore shelf for 10 months then your getting short changed. I did not think about this until I got home with the one that I bought...when I looked at it it had something like 7-8 months left before the expiration date. I wasn't very happy about that. Next time I will ask to see the actual epi-pen that I will receive (if there is a next time). Naturally, though, "official" websites warn against administering epinephrine to other people as it itself can cause serious problems.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000844.htm

For me, proximity to an emergency room and availability/quickness of first responders would be a couple of the considerations in the decision making process.

Best wishes,
Ed


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## Tallevaguy (Dec 15, 2012)

I'm non allergic to bees in the sense of the need to use an epipen but I keep one for other allergies. I'm not sure that there is a need to have one unless you are in very remote area and the local EMS may be delayed coming in an emergency. FYI...there is a company that makes a generic epinephine auto inject pen that is much cheaper than the epipen and the twinject pen. I've had all thee. The cost of the generic is great for a two pack but I prefer a two pack of twinject pins...that gives me four doses.


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

I think it is wise to be aware of teh potential problem. it is also wise to do what you can to prevent unnecessary bee exposure to those that may have an adverse reaction to the sting. Keep water available for the bees, try to influence flight paths to avoid people..etc. If you're worried about legal issues, an individual will have a hard time proving that the stinging bee came from your hive. There are lots of bees out there that could have done it.

Fact of the matter is that cats scratch, dogs bark, and bees sting. It's just life. While i do carry a 1st aid kit and a suture kit for emergencies, I don't feel it is necessary for me to have a fast acting inhaler for the asthmatics, insulin for the diabetics, or glycerin for those with heart problems. It is my opinion that individuals at risk should prepare themselves. If I knew that i would have an adverse reaction to a sting, i would be prepared for that eventuality....apiary or not. 

For transparency, I do not have bees. This is my first year messing about with these creatures and my opinion may be influenced by time and experience. For now, I say you are a good person to consider others, but you need not provide epipens for them.


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## Irmo (Jan 9, 2012)

Just a note, epi pen prescriptions are written for the person who will use the pen (on themselves), and generally not to issue a pen to someone to have around just in case someone else needs it. Some Doctors will write a prescrition for beekeepers to have a pen on hand, others won't. If you were to use your epi pen on another person and something bad happened......misuse of a prescription drug


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

KPeacock said:


> <snip> If you're worried about legal issues, an individual will have a hard time proving that the stinging bee came from your hive. There are lots of bees out there that could have done it.
> 
> Fact of the matter is that cats scratch, dogs bark, and bees sting. It's just life. While i do carry a 1st aid kit and a suture kit for emergencies, <snip>... It is my opinion that individuals at risk should prepare themselves.


KP, lots of people don't know that they are at risk. People usually don't first go to a doctor or somewhere and ask to be tested for bee venom allergies...they find out they are allergic by being stung, followed by anaphylactic shock symptoms. *Then* they follow up with testing and find that they are indeed at risk. Some people who have never been allergic to bee venom one day suddenly have a very bad reaction...there have been commercial beekeepers that have given up their lifelong work because of sudden deadly allergies. A suture kit, eh? 


Irmo said:


> <snip> If you were to use your epi pen on another person and something bad happened......misuse of a prescription drug


Both of the quoted posts above point to "legal" issues and rightly so. I'm not bashing either of the posters, but pointing out that worries of legal problems appear to be more important to our lawsuit-happy society today than helping someone in need. Kind of a _"Dam_ the good Samaritan, I'm covering my butt"_ mentality. 

So, for a non-allergic beekeeper... Morally right to have an epi pen?...no. Wrong not to have one?...no. Good to have?...yes Probability of needing to use it?....low. Could cause legal problems?...yes. Could save someone's life?...yes. Probability that it will expire before use?...high. Make you feel better to have one on hand?...maybe. Will you purchase one?...your decision.

Ed


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Legitimate hypoallergenic reactions resulting in death from bee stings are much more rare than golfers being struck and killed by lightning on golf courses. I don't see golfers carrying around grounding rods. Now if you fee tingles you get off the course or get an epipen if you have a severe reaction. But I guess I personally am just not that consumed by fear. Until you have trouble, you have no trouble. Since a huge percentage of people think pain and swelling at the point of wasp sting means they are ALLERGIC to bees. They should get epipens not you.


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## Irmo (Jan 9, 2012)

Intheswamp said:


> KP, more important to our lawsuit-happy society today than helping someone in need.


Actually, I was thinking of criminal charges and jail time. But you're right, a lawsuit would stink too. 

This is a tough one because we should all do everything we can to help someone in need, but where do you draw the line between doing everything and anything possible, or using good judgment while trying to help. I don't have a good answer. I do know that epinephrine is serious stuff and can be harmful to people with some reasonably common conditions (asthma, high blood pressure, and heart conditions among them). So much so that their own doctor might not give them an epi prescription of their own. Of course they will probably tell you before you jab them...unless their throat is swollen shut. Anyway, I think administering a prescription drug to someone, when it's not their prescription, is a pretty serious thing to do unless you're a Doctor or First Responder/EMT. The rest of us should be focused on getting the victim professional help as fast as possible. I don't believe that says "**** the good Samaritan".

The people I know who need an epi prescription pretty much carry the thing around with them all the time. Sometimes they forget or leave it somewhere, but generally they have it with them or nearby. Particularly when their condition is so serious that circumstances could turn deadly without it.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Keep giving in and see what you got left.


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## Steven Tervort (Feb 16, 2012)

You need a prescription for an epipen. Only 3% of the population will develop anaphylaxis when stung by bees. The chances of someone actually needing your epipen would be extremely rare... If a person is truly allergic to bees, they would more than likely be carrying their own epipen. 
A lot of people believe that an epipen will fix anaphylaxis. They give the epipen but don't call 911. The epipen only relieves the shock until qualified medical personnel can help you. 
Epipens contain only a single dose of epinephrine. If someone has a severe allergic reaction they will need to be given more doses until the reaction stops. 
The last problem is that a lot of people don't store their epipens correctly. The epipens need to be stored at 77* Fahrenheit until the expiration date. Having one on hand every time you are in the bee yard would likely ruin the medication. If someone actually needed the epipen, it wouldn't work. 
***Just sharing the info I received from my Doc when I asked about it*** You can find more information on the epipen website (www.epipen.com)


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## Tallevaguy (Dec 15, 2012)

Epipen = one dose, auto injected. 
Twinject pen = one dose, auto injected and a second dose if needed manually injected. 
Generic pen = one dose, auto injected.
If you feel the need to give yourself a shot with one of these pens, you need to get to an ER for futher evaluation. One poster said the pen prolongs the symptons, it actually relieves the shock for a small period of time. It the reaction is severe enough, it will just come back and need attention again...thus the need to get advanced medical help.

Through the years I have attended CPR/AED/first aid classes this question has come up about someone giving another person a shot with his / her epipen. The answer has always been that it is not legal. If you have a pen and someone else needs it, it has been recommended that you prepare the pen for use and had it to the person in need and if the person in need has stopped breathing, wrap thier hand around it and help them stick themselves. This is ONLY what the instructor was telling us. It is not legal, it's a possible life saving measure that you may have to defend.


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

Ed,

You make soem good points about others being unaware of their potential reaction. 

The suture kit is just a matter of convenience. I've only used it once to save a long trip out of the woods and a long wait in the ER. My hobbies/habbits result is injuries to my hands more than anything. it's darn hard to stitch yourself up with one hand. I'm not sure I'd attempt it unless it were an emergency.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

3% of the population is a wild wild exageration!


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## Verick369 (Jan 11, 2013)

I am an aspiring beekeeper, and a pollination ecologist. From all the literature I have read about bee venom if you are stung regularly (1+ times per month,) your odds of having a reaction are well under 1%. However, individuals who are stung infrequently (especially those who are stung only once per year,) may have a chance as high as 90% of going into shock over that time period. This is why beekeepers families are generally at the highest risk. People may develop an allergy, or just have a bad day. I have met a few beekeepers who went into shock after working with bees for years seemingly out of the blue, and not a single one of them were proud of their lack of an epi pen. One guy I knew passed out in front of a clinic at the school he was working out, and if he had been out in a field somewhere it could have ended very poorly. In the end you should assess the risks and benefits and decide on your own, but I will always pay the money to ensure nothing terrible happens to me or anyone I work with or know.


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

Allergy threads tend to bring out strong opinions...

I realize it is technically illegal to administer an epi-pen on someone else. That said, 1) the benefit-to-risk ratio of epinephrine injection during anaphylaxis is much higher than is being stated here, and 2) epi-pens are all the same, with the exception of a lower-dose version for children. Therefore if I am having an allergic reaction I want the nearest epi-pen ASAP. I don't care if it is mine.

Most complications from epi-pen injection arise when it is injected into a finger. This happens surprisingly often as in the heat of the moment folks get the pen upside down, jam it into their thigh, and the needle goes right through their thumb. Epinephrine is a powerful vasoconstrictor; the result is no blood flow to the affected finger and it turns white and cold. This is not life-threatening but does often require medical treatment.

I don't think the 3% figure is too high, but all allergies are not created equal. Which is to say that the proportion of people who would die if stung with no epi-pen is less than 1% while the proportion who have experienced allergy (i.e. systemic symptoms like full body rash after a sting) is much higher, especially among beekeepers. I developed an allergy to stings two years ago, went through desensitization, and have had more than 70 stings since with no adverse response.

I try to post these links in every allergy thread. Good info from an MD beekeeper. If you only have time to read one, read the second one.
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/pdfs/Marterre.2006a copy.pdf
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/pdfs/Marterre.2006b copy.pdf


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Yes you could get in legal or civil trouble if you inject someone with an epi-pen that is not theirs (after all you could actually kill someone with one), unless you are medically trained and in your field of expertise. That being said I would not hesitate to use one (since I have them on hand, due to an allergy) if the situation warranted it, because the choice could to risk the legal trouble or watch them die. It is also much less expensive to keep a vial of epinephrine and a syringe (like the old fashioned allergy kits) but you must know the dosages to use. The problem is that in anaphylactic shock epinephrin will only be effective for about 15-20 minutes and than the reaction continues. You need to get medical help within that time frame, or have another option until you can get medical treatment, this may be a second dose of epinephrine or a longer acting antihistamine such as diphenhydramine (Benadryl). It is best to have it in an injectable form, but in a pinch can be given sublingualy. If I were not (or a family member) was not allergic I do not think I would bother to have anything more than some Benadryl on hand, as the risk of a problem is very low.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Intheswamp said:


> So, for a non-allergic beekeeper... Morally right to have an epi pen?...no. Wrong not to have one?...no. Good to have?...yes Probability of needing to use it?....low. Could cause legal problems?...yes. Could save someone's life?...yes. Probability that it will expire before use?...high. Make you feel better to have one on hand?...maybe. Will you purchase one?...your decision.
> 
> Ed


Well Put!


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## NCbeek (Mar 23, 2011)

Verick369 said:


> I am an aspiring beekeeper, and a pollination ecologist. From all the literature I have read about bee venom if you are stung regularly (1+ times per month,) your odds of having a reaction are well under 1%. However, individuals who are stung infrequently (especially those who are stung only once per year,) may have a chance as high as 90% of going into shock over that time period. This is why beekeepers families are generally at the highest risk.


So, since I've only been stung 3 or 4 times in the past 3 years, the chances are pretty good I'll have a severe reaction this year. I really hope you are wrong but I would like to see the literature for myself if you have a link.


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## StacieM (Dec 13, 2012)

Our family doc, who is also my 3-year-old son's pediatrician actually offered a prescription for an epi-pen for us to keep on hand when we told him I was beekeeping. I haven't been stung by a honeybee in 15 years, my husband is unsure if he has ever been stung, and my son has not ever been stung. We often have children here, and we do have one cousin who visits and IS allergic to bee stings (but carries his own epi pen). Our doctor gave us the epi-pen Junior, since there is a chance we would need it for a child. He wrote the rx in my son's name and our insurance covered it and our copy was $25. It came with two epi-pens (they are 1/2 adult strength) and a practice pen to use to make yourself comfortable with using it. I think the biggest concern where we live is the fact that we live in rural Kentucky and are at least 30 minutes to a hospital, and at least 25 minutes from the nearest ambulance (and I would be it would take twice that). 

Statistically speaking, I hope we never use it. But, if someone goes in to anaphylaxis, I will be more than ready to use it, whether the rx was for them or not. If they want to sue me later for saving their life, so be it. I think the main thing to understand is that swelling, redness, and discomfort are NORMAL reactions to bee stings. You ONLY use an epi-pen for a true anaphylactic emergency.


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

Verick369 said:


> However, individuals who are stung infrequently (especially those who are stung only once per year,) may have a chance as high as 90% of going into shock over that time period.


While it's true that frequent stings (daily to monthly) generally desensitize, I haven't seen a figure anywhere close to 90% chance of allergy for infrequent stings. The highest allergy incidence I have seen in the literature is around 17% (among beekeepers stung infrequently) - can you point me to a reference for your higher number?


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## awebber96 (May 28, 2012)

For what it's worth, I asked my kids' pediatrician (also a beekeeper) whether I should have one on hand just in case someone is allergic. He thought it was completely unnecessary and refused to write a script for it.


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

We got an EpiPen years ago and it expired on the shelf. Recently we created our own story.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-boy-got-stung-went-to-ER&p=796452#post796452

My son doesn't want me to get rid of the hives.

Use an EpiPen and you get a mandatory trip to the ER. Benadryl may be enough to do the job.

Hand someone an aspirin and you're on the hook. Let them have at the first aid kit and it's on them. Make your choice, pay up and take your chances.


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## Verick369 (Jan 11, 2013)

I will need to figure out what book it was. My professor had what we called "the bee bible," and it was a few thousand pages and was cited to scientific papers all the way through. The first sting of the season will always be the worst and is always the one you should keep an eye on. If I can get him to bring in the book again I will find the research paper and share it. After reading it my philosophy is get stung once a month or not at all though.


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## StacieM (Dec 13, 2012)

throrope said:


> We got an EpiPen years ago and it expired on the shelf. Recently we created our own story.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-boy-got-stung-went-to-ER&p=796452#post796452
> 
> ...


Benadryl may be enough for a typical reaction, and after reading your son's story, it doesn't sound like true anaphylaxis, which would result in blood pressure bottoming out. Or maybe it was, and was already being counter-acted by the Benadryl and steroids? A lot of people have goofy reaction to bites and stings, and some of those even include some degree of swelling of the mouth or throat (which don't get me wrong, is SERIOUS). But a true anaphylactic emergency is a systemic reaction (meaning a sting on the toe could cause the throat to swell). 

The fact of the matter is, I don't think I would offer a person suffering a true anaphylactic emergency benadryl to prevent getting sued from giving them an epi-pen, and I wouldn't force them to administer the epi-pen themselves. Even if you DID use the epi-pen on them, I believe you would be covered (legally) by the Good Samaritan laws.


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## StacieM (Dec 13, 2012)

Verick369 said:


> I will need to figure out what book it was. My professor had what we called "the bee bible," and it was a few thousand pages and was cited to scientific papers all the way through. The first sting of the season will always be the worst and is always the one you should keep an eye on. If I can get him to bring in the book again I will find the research paper and share it. After reading it my philosophy is get stung once a month or not at all though.


I would love to know the validity of the claim the author made. Allergies are tricky. You have to have been exposed to an allergen to form an allergy. Other than that, it is generally a crapshoot. You can be stung by bees every year for twenty years, and there is no rhyme or reason as to what triggers your body to form an allergic response (basically an over reaction by your immune system). I do think there are some risk factors though (like having asthma, which is also an immune system over reaction and is something that I do suffer from).


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## Irmo (Jan 9, 2012)

StacieM said:


> Even if you DID use the epi-pen on them, I believe you would be covered (legally) by the Good Samaritan laws.


You would not be covered by good samaritan laws for administering an epi pen to someone unless a) it is their prescription; b) you are a trained medical professional; and (I think) c) an EMT. Getting fuzzy on that last one, an EMT may need direction from a doctor or nurse, not sure.


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## StacieM (Dec 13, 2012)

Irmo said:


> You would not be covered by good samaritan laws for administering an epi pen to someone unless a) it is their prescription; b) you are a trained medical professional; and (I think) c) an EMT. Getting fuzzy on that last one, an EMT may need direction from a doctor or nurse, not sure.


I disagree. From my understanding most states allow lay persons to administer epinephrine, just like CPR, and it is protected under Good Samaritan laws. Only a few states have specific laws requiring training and/or certification to use an epi-pen. In other countries (Canada I believe), epinephrine doesn't even require a prescription to get.


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## Irmo (Jan 9, 2012)

True on Canada, and you can administer epinephrine as a lay person if it has been prescribed for that person. In other words you can help them with thier pen in the event they are incapacitated by the shock. You can't give it to someone it wasn't prescribed for.


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## Verick369 (Jan 11, 2013)

The book was "The Hive and the Honey Bee." Link below. I know it is dated but they only release a copy ever 10 or so years and this is the latest version to the best of my knowledge.

http://www.amazon.com/Hive-Honey-Be...ords=the+hive+and+the+honey+bee+Dadant+&+Sons


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

StacieM said:


> I would love to know the validity of the claim the author made. Allergies are tricky. You have to have been exposed to an allergen to form an allergy. Other than that, it is generally a crapshoot. You can be stung by bees every year for twenty years, and there is no rhyme or reason as to what triggers your body to form an allergic response (basically an over reaction by your immune system). I do think there are some risk factors though (like having asthma, which is also an immune system over reaction and is something that I do suffer from).


It's not quite a crapshoot, but immune responses are complex and potentially chaotic over longer timescales. An allergic response requires high levels of IgE antibodies and low levels of IgG antibodies. 

IgE antibodies are reactive. They appear following exposure to a foreign protein (such as on a virus or bee venom) and can multiply rapidly to high levels, ready to mount a full-scale attack the next time the protein appears. We have these antibodies to thank for the fact that getting the flu makes us immune to that particular flu strain. Unfortunately a bee injects millions of proteins directly into the bloodstream, potentially triggering a response so large that it is life-threatening. 
IgE levels are stochastic, a "crapshoot" if you will. IgE may spike after the first sting, the 501st sting, or never in a lifetime of stings. Certain factors (such as other allergies) can tip the odds, but there is always some probability of an IgE response.

IgG antibodies are suppressive. They build up over time following regular exposure to particular proteins and inform the body that an immune response is unnecessary. In some cases IgG antibodies even bind to and inactivate IgE antibodies. Beekeepers who are stung more often have more IgGs in their blood. Desensitization (allergy shots) works by building up IgG levels to balance out IgE levels. IgG levels drop if exposure is not maintained; hence the common report that the first stings of spring are the strongest.

The upshot is that it is best to be stung often or not at all. I'm in the "often" camp because:
a) "not at all" is difficult to achieve as a beekeeper
b) exposure to residual venom (on clothes, in the air) can trigger allergy in the absence of actual stings.
c) I had an allergic response (high IgE levels) so want to keep my IgG titer high.
d) I swell a lot less after my 75th sting than after my first few.
e) My friends think it's badass that I intentionally sting myself every week.

Mark


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## SippyBees (Feb 17, 2004)

Every state has their own laws... but in this case I think most states would be the same as Mississippi. I was a certified EMT before, and this question is ALWAYS asked in training. Answer: It is AGAINST THE LAW for you to administer any medication to a patient if you are not Paramedic certified/ licensed practitioner/ or medical doctor.... it will not be covered by good samaritan laws... and even if the patient does not sue you, the state still may. IF you do keep an Epi-pen as a beekeeper... you can let someone administer it to themself if they think they are having an allergic reaction... and you may assist them to administer it... just do not forget "It is AGAINST THE LAW for you to administer any medication to a patient if you are not Paramedic certified/ licensed practitioner/ or medical doctor.... it will not be covered by good samaritan laws... and even if the patient does not sue you, the state still may"


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## jamneff (Mar 5, 2012)

I was perscribed 1 after I mowed a little to close to a flowering tree last year that was covered in bees. I was stung several times before I made it to the house. I did have a reaction, due to the many stings, so I was given 1 incase of another reaction.


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

> it will not be covered by good samaritan laws... and even if the patient does not sue you, the state still may


Nobody is going to sue you unless someone comes to harm, and the risk of harm from epi-pens is quite small (though admittedly not nonexistent). That said, if you do have an epi-pen and intend to use it on others if necessary, it would be a good idea to have a conversation about it ahead of time with anyone who visits the bee yard. Something along the lines of "Severe bee allergy is very very rare, but should it happen to you I have an epinephrine injector which can keep you alive until the ambulance arrives. If you experience any difficulty breathing or lightheadedness following a sting, let me know ASAP." 

If someone has a reaction, the best course of action is probably to call 911 immediately (if you have phone service), get an ambulance on the way, and get the 911 operator's approval to use the pen (which should absolve you of some legal responsibility). But if the reaction progresses rapidly I would not hesitate to use it. 

The legally-motivated suggestions to have the patient administer the pen themselves strike me as foolish from a practical perspective. By all means invite them to do so, but if they have never practiced with an epi-pen before, and they're feeling like their own body is about to kill them, having an experienced, steady-handed bystander do the actual injecting makes far more sense to me. Should I ever find myself in that situation, well, let's just say I'll worry about the law later.


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## SippyBees (Feb 17, 2004)

You can do anything you want... maybe you will be right, and then again maybe you weren't right to administer a controlled drug to someone without training or knowledge of their history... It is not just a simple matter by any means. Then after the fact no matter if you were right or wrong... when you ANSWER the question to a person with a uniform on... "Did you inject this patient with this epi-pen?" When you begin your answer with "Well, I thought xxxxxxxxx" THEN you will understand what I am talking about. I would not inject anyone that was not immediate family to me and I was TRAINED to do it. There are other medical conditions that may exist that cause a person to die if you give them that epi-pen... then again maybe it wasn't anaphylactic shock they were having when you decided to stick them. Then again... maybe they were unconcious and you decide to stick them... then they die. ??? HOW Will you answer the police when THAT is brought to light? 
I am just another beek here... so dont take my word for it... call a doctor and discuss it with them and see what they say. Ask them if it would be a good idea to keep an epi-pen just in case someone in your apiary seems to have an alergic reaction to a bee sting. Good intentions dont mean as much as you might think it does... unless you are doing what you have been trained to do AND did it in a professional manner and to the standards of your own training. I know EMT/ Paramedics who have defended themselves with good samaritan laws. Had they done anything out of their training or to a level that was not consistent with their training.... they would have gone to jail.... the affect it had on the patient good/ bad... would have been irrelevant. 
Nuff' said by me.... but if you decide you will stick someone... you should not be encouraging it here IMHO.
Oh.. almost forgot... no 911 operator will EVER tell you to administer an injectable controlled drug to a person it was not prescribed to, and you not being trained to administer it in the first place.... without a qualified medical authority directing this action. FWIW


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## DamSutt1986 (May 26, 2012)

Just buy an epi-pen. If you are concerned at all, spend the money and buy one. Don't worry about other people and all that jazz. Buy one, take it with you, use it if you need it. My doc was a little bit confused when I asked for one and told her I wasn't allergic. I told her that I was worried that with all the stings, I may have a bad day at some point and want to be prepared. She was fine with writing the script. I feel better knowing that I have it if I need it, not just for bee stings. Even if it's $200 a year... it's a small price to pay to feel comfortable. 

If you really want to get into the deal about sticking another person, just call 911 and ask them if you should use it.


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

Well said DamSutt. 

I should probably let this slide, but Sippy sure has an inflammatory writing style...

Sting-induced anaphylaxis is not difficult to diagnose. Any combination of full-body itching, difficulty breathing, lightheadedness etc. that comes on immediately after a bee sting will 99% of the time be an allergic reaction to the sting. Of course I'm not randomly going to stick someone. My point was only that in true anaphylaxis, having a second person on hand to do the actual injecting is a good thing. Think about it. As evidenced by many folks on this board, anyone can walk into a doctor's office, say they have bees and are worried about allergy, and walk out with an epi-pen prescription. There is no training provided or required.

Should you use a pen on someone else (with their permission of course), the appropriate question is not "is it legal?" but rather "would a trained doctor in my place have made the same decision?" If the answer to the latter is yes, there should be little to worry about. Of course the best option is to get a trained doctor on the phone, but if that isn't possible your judgment, and that of the person experiencing the reaction, are all that you have to go on.


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## dixiebooks (Jun 21, 2010)

Irmo said:


> You would not be covered by good samaritan laws for administering an epi pen to someone unless a) it is their prescription; b) you are a trained medical professional; and (I think) c) an EMT. Getting fuzzy on that last one, an EMT may need direction from a doctor or nurse, not sure.


FWIW, I am an EMT licensed in AL and in VA. I may ASSIST a pt in adninistering an epi-pen to themselves but ONLY after checking to ensure that 1) that pen was prescribed to THAT pt and to no one else and, 2) that the pen is in date. I cannot administer it myself but can only ASSIST. An Advanced EMT or Paramedic may administer but only per protocol - either standing orders or after receiving verbal orders from the medical control officer. Any other situation is dispensing a prescription drug illegally and is, I believe, a federal offense. It is, at least, a violation of law in every state of which I am aware. And yes, you CAN be sued. And yes, if you've been found to be dispensing drugs without a license you will be charged with such.

My opinion is that anyone who gets a prescription from their doctor for an epipen so that it can be on hand in CASE another person has an anaphylactic reaction has likely misrepresented their intentions to the doctor.

If you're really worried about this, keep some Benadryl on hand and a cell phone to call 911.

-js


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## SippyBees (Feb 17, 2004)

I sincerely apologize if you take my words to be inflammatory... I really do not want to offend anyone... but I was trained as an EMT... and I know what is specifically stated in my training.... It might not seem to be so serious here in this forum... but in my training it was treated very seriously. 
Again... I do not suggest administering drugs to other people without real training... But i also apologize if saying this is offensive to you.


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## NowThen (Nov 26, 2008)

I buy a new set of pens every year. I am no more allergic to bee venom as most of the population, but bee yard events do happen. I dropped a deep while doing a reversal a couple of years ago. I was stung more times than I could count. I did not go into anaphylaxis. I did have a systemic reaction with hives covering every inch of my body. I had no problems breathing. I took a double dose of children's Benadryl, gave the epi-pen to one of my kids and waited to see what might transpire. In about 30 minutes, the symptoms dissipated and I was able to head back to the yard (with full bee suit this time) to put the hive back together. 

While not needed, I'm glad that the pen was handy. I show my wife and kids how to use the pen when the prescription is renewed.

As to using MY pen on somebody else... While the legal ramifications could be devastating, if somebody was in the throes of anaphylaxis, I would probably use the pen. I hope that I never end up having to make that decision.


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## RABray (Feb 8, 2011)

Twinbee, I have read the responses and have mixed emotions regarding the answers.

I was certified, no longer current, a Category 3 EMT and understand and agree with the responses regarding administering meds not prescribed to the person being administered to. That being said the same certifications and training states that digging out a splinter is considered an invasive procedure and is controlled just as the administering of meds. 

I requested a pen, and get renewals, when I started beekeeping and will continue to do so. I have seen anaphylaxis and administered to those in it’s throws. It’s not pretty, it’s not nice and it is not just one specific set of symptoms on it’s onslaught but what it is always; is life threatening and usually rapid on it’s procession. Whether I administer my pens to someone else at my home or visiting my hives will be a decision I make at that time, based on the situation and conditions at that time, not exclusively on the legal issues raised in these posts. I do not run up and down the streets looking for splinters to remove either but if an acquaintance in true need asks me to help remove one guess what…I will be looking for my tweezers.

Rick


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Ok, I get it...

I have a friend to my house.

We walk behind the house, stopping a couple of hundred feet from the bee hives as I explain to him what I'm doing and my plans for adding some more hives, about the price of eggs in China, etc.,.

About that time a little hussy flies by that apparently has been arguing with one of her sisters. Having a bad hair day she decides the side of my friend's neck needs some bee venom therapy.

Naturally my friend lets out a few words and swats at the sting site exclaiming that he just got stung. I think to myself "welcome to the club". I tell him I'll get some benadryl for him when we get back to my house (my epi-pen is in my back pocket). He's no longer interested in the hives and says he'd like to go inside. On the way to the house he complains that he's feeling a little faint and that he needs a drink of water...I look and see what looks like a rash spreading up his arms. As we get closer to the house I hear his breathing become a little "wheezy" or something...different from what it has been. When we get inside he collapses into a chair and is definitely having problem catching his breath...a bit of panic is beginning to show in his eyes...his wife just now notices something is wrong. I tell his wife that I'm calling 911 that I think he's having a reaction to a bee sting. The friend for the first time complains that he's having trouble breathing and promptly vomits...that rash seems to have spread some. 911 dispatches an ambulance, but, living in a rural area 10 miles from the dispatch center it may very well be 15-20 minutes before it arrives. About that time my visitor's wife yells that her husband has fainted and isn't responding to her. I've still got the epi-pen that is prescribed to me in my back pocket, I would use it, but...

My friends color is changing...getting a little blue tint to the skin...and it's really hard to tell if he's breathing. I call 911 back and tell them what's going on....the ambulance is still at least 5 minutes away...and I've still got the epi-pen in my back pocket.

Finally the ambulance gets there they try to get a line in him, they stick him with an epi-pen, one paramedic gives me a discouraging look. Somberly they load him into the back of the ambulance and head to the hospital with lights and siren going and his wife following behind them. I watch them leave, hoping with all my heart that he makes it and is ok. My epi-pen is still in my back pocket...but I haven't broken any laws because I'm a deacon in the church, a local business owner, a former cub scout, a man that opens doors for ladies, a man of high morals and ethics, and I recycle my aluminum cans, too...I'm an all around upstanding law abiding citizen.

According to our nation's legal system that the way it's supposed to work. 

I'm not knocking anybody's comments here about the legality of giving someone a shot with your epi-pen. Apparently, by the books it is illegal and subject to legal prosecution if someone wishes to press it. Good information has been shared on that. It is laws such as this that keep people from being good samaritans...the fear of lawsuits and even criminal charges by simply trying to help someone. Rather than help, people hurry on their way to avoid feeling guilty for not helping...letting "someone else" (hopefully) step in the gap for that person in need. The problem is that John Q Public has adapted the herd mentality and when one person "walks on by" it seems the rest of the people do, too. The people who say "**** the torpedoes..." and go to the aid of those in need (whether they help or not, but at least try) are the heroes...those that walk on by and turn their head, well, they're not really much of anything in my book.

Ed


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## SippyBees (Feb 17, 2004)

But.. if your friend also had an unknown cardiac condition that YOU didn't know about also... and you DID give him the epi-pen... then the heart attack that definitely killed him was caused by YOU and not the bee. Maybe if you had decided to use that pen, you could have explained to your friend before he passed out what he needed to do and let HIM decide or his wife decide to administer the epi-pen. It is not a position I would want to be in.. and I don't envy anyone who would have to make that decision... but my training did not give me the choice in how to respond. All I am saying is that to those that choose to do it... do not take it lightly.. and do not consider it just a mild medication you are giving someone. The HELP that you think you are giving CAN kill someone just a quickly as anaphylactic shock. 
AND.. I do not think it is wise for anyone here to encourage other people to give an epi-pen whenever they THINK someone may be having anaphylactic shock. It is a free country... if you can get an epi-pen... if you choose to use it on someone other than yourself.. then also be prepared to reap the results of your decision/ actions, but anyone who has read this thread has enough knowledge to at least know what potentially may be their reward for helping someone.. or thinking that they were helping.


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## StacieM (Dec 13, 2012)

SippyBees said:


> But.. if your friend also had an unknown cardiac condition that YOU didn't know about also... and you DID give him the epi-pen... then the heart attack that definitely killed him was caused by YOU and not the bee. Maybe if you had decided to use that pen, you could have explained to your friend before he passed out what he needed to do and let HIM decide or his wife decide to administer the epi-pen. It is not a position I would want to be in.. and I don't envy anyone who would have to make that decision... but my training did not give me the choice in how to respond. All I am saying is that to those that choose to do it... do not take it lightly.. and do not consider it just a mild medication you are giving someone. The HELP that you think you are giving CAN kill someone just a quickly as anaphylactic shock.
> AND.. I do not think it is wise for anyone here to encourage other people to give an epi-pen whenever they THINK someone may be having anaphylactic shock. It is a free country... if you can get an epi-pen... if you choose to use it on someone other than yourself.. then also be prepared to reap the results of your decision/ actions, but anyone who has read this thread has enough knowledge to at least know what potentially may be their reward for helping someone.. or thinking that they were helping.


And this is where I think NO jury or judge, would find you guilty of anything, unless you KNEW of the heart condition. TBH, if said patient got to the hospital, epinephrine would be administered. If they have a heart condition and croak right there, well, same situation. 

Again, I will say that I do believe from my research and reading that state laws vary. Some states don't even want EMT administering epi. Some states are more lax and will say that any first responder can administer it. Heck, in many states every school has an epi-pen and are willing to use it on any student who develops a need. Obviously the RX was not for that student particularly. And like I said before, in other countries epinephrine isn't even a prescription medication. 

I also believe that I would willingly take a lawsuit from any "victim" whom I may stab with an epi-pen if they are stung by my bees and are developing an anaphylactic reaction. If they lived through the anaphylaxis and could sue me, I would gladly go to court and explain my side.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I have an epi pen. I understand that it's not something one should use on another person. For me, all the scary stories just made me worried. So I bought one just to have it. I have read that they can last for many months beyond their expiration, and that in the case of shock, even an expired pen is better than nothing.

It's really just a last resort for a true emergency situation.

I have several bottles of children's benedryl around as well.

Adam


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## SippyBees (Feb 17, 2004)

I was told in my training.. that epi-pens after they expire will eventually crystalize in the pen... I assume it will not happen ON the expiration date.. however... if you inject someone and accidentally hit a blood vessel.. and then inject the crystals into the bloodstream CAN cause an embolism in the lungs >>>> DEATH. Wanna take that chance? Thats your business.... Do some googleing... even search this site... A doctor on this site already addressed this topic. 
Better know what you are doing... there HAVE been people who went to jail for such beliefs already.... it is no small thing as suggested by some here.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

SippyBees said:


> * it is no small thing as suggested by some here.*


Sip, I don't think anyone here has suggested that it is a small thing. You are beginning to spin your side of the debate. 

Ed


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## SippyBees (Feb 17, 2004)

Sorry.. I felt otherwise Swamp.. but.. I definitely need to get over it..  People will do what people do. And no matter what you or I say.. probably won't make a difference. I will mosey on down the road from this one.... 
Back to the beehives...


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I hear ya, Sip...sometimes we can't see the bees for the epi-pens. 

Best wishes,
Ed


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## dixiebooks (Jun 21, 2010)

StacieM said:


> And this is where I think NO jury or judge, would find you guilty of anything, unless you KNEW of the heart condition. <snip>


I think you are very much mistaken here. Whether you knew of a heart condition or not or whether the person died or not is immaterial. You will be found guilty of knowingly administering a prescription drug without a license to a person for whom it was not prescribed. You'd better be wearing your rubber boots because you will be in very deep stuff, I think, with ANY judge or jury.

Don't take my word for it, though. I don't live in KY. Ask these people: http://kbems.kctcs.edu/Legal.aspx

-js


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## dixiebooks (Jun 21, 2010)

Intheswamp said:


> ...<snip>... I call 911 back and tell them what's going on....the ambulance is still at least 5 minutes away...and I've still got the epi-pen in my back pocket....<snip>


At that point, why would you not mention to the dispatcher that you have an epi pen in your back pocket that is prescribed to you and it is in date? You may luck up and get permission to administer it and then you'd be covered. -js


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

I have one makes the wife happy i got hit around 70 times last year and i'm still alive.
She got hit one time and she was fine if i lived by myself i probably would not have one .
They do only have like a year shelf life i think i my be wrong.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

dixiebooks said:


> At that point, why would you not mention to the dispatcher that you have an epi pen in your back pocket that is prescribed to you and it is in date? You may luck up and get permission to administer it and then you'd be covered. -js


Who can give permission and also cover my behind? I'm supposed to trust somebody on the phone telling me I won't be prosecuted? I'm a law abiding citizen. I don't think a 911 operator could get a judge and lawyer together and the paperwork done and delivered to me giving me immunity from criminal prosecution or possible lawsuits in time to administer the epinephrine...so I continue to be a law abiding citizen and keep it in my pocket without fear of prosecution or lawsuits. The law protects the victim from me possibly hurting them (even though they are in a very serious condition and could use the help) and it protects me (as long as I follow the law) from criminal prosecution or law suits...that's the way the law is supposed to work,...right?


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## dixiebooks (Jun 21, 2010)

what it would do is give dispatch (trained in medical emergencies in most places) a chance to talk you through the situation to help determine what is really going on. I'm not saying they would OK the administration of the drug because I don't know. I'm just saying that if they did then i think you may have a fallback in that someone in 'the system' gave the go-ahead. Just throwing it out as a possibility. again, best to consult your doctor (and be HONEST with him about your intentions) and your lawyer (which I am not - I'm just an EMT) and consider having benadryl on hand rather than epi. -js


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I understand where you were coming from, James, but I don't think the 911 operator could give me immunity from the law and if sued or arrested I would still be needing to pay a lawyer. With "911 permission" it would still be a violation of the laws that so many have cited on here. Maybe the laws need tweaking regarding this issue.

I haven't contacted a lawyer regarding using the pen on someone else, but I explained to my doctor why I wanted the epi pen and he did not hesitate to write me out a prescription...and he knows I'm not allergic. ?

Ed


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## dixiebooks (Jun 21, 2010)

Ed- PM sent. -js


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## MaydayMalone (Jan 19, 2012)

I just had my family doctor write me a prescription for an epipen last week just because I wanted to put an end to my sister's constant nagging about how I should have one. Sheesh! When I went to the Pharmacy to pick it up, it was $40 for a package of two with my insurance ($375 w/o insurance). The Pharmacist asked me if I really wanted it. I ended up not getting it.

I work my hives alone. They are placed far enough away from any houses and are on posted land. I don't have any allergic reactions to stings, so why blow $40? 

I had never seen an epipen before last week. It reminded me of the old Atropine auto-injectors that we had during the Gulf War to counter the effects of chemical nerve agents. It's a spring loaded injector that you would slam into your thigh releasing a one-inch long, THICK ASS needle into the muscle. GEEZ that just sounded so uncomfortable. I'm glad that I never had to use them. 

If you are in a populated area, have bees in close proximity to a neighbor, or know of someone that has an allergy to bee stings.....I would invest in one for the liability purposes.









These are the auto-injectors used by the U.S. military. They are identical in nature to the epipen.


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