# Ideas for "in line" filter and "automatic" valve



## challenger (May 27, 2009)

I am doing my bottling manually using a 10 gallon plastic bottling tank. It is soooooo slow. I am trying to find information on those valves I've seen on tv that fill a bottle a precise amount when the bottle is pressed up against it.
I am also looking for some type of filter that I could put in line as a final filter prior to bottling. I'd like something with a suitable screen that I could drop and clean as needed. Sort of like the whole house cartridge style but with a 500 micron mesh instead of the paper??
Thanks


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Well, a _plastic _bottling tank implies to me that the contents of the tank are not being heated. One way to improve honey flow is to warm it. Have you considered a _heated _bottling tank?

While I suspect that you are not of a scale to support it, there are semi-automated honey fillers that can be set to a predetermined quantity. How much money are you prepared to spend?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

challenger said:


> I am doing my bottling manually using a 10 gallon plastic bottling tank. It is soooooo slow.


What volume are you looking for? There are machines that fill tubes and bottles very quickly. Because the wetted parts are stainless these machines are expensive but if you search used machinery dealers you sometimes can pick these up for a steal. We had one at my last place of work and it is nothing but a stainless steel cylinder and associated check valves with a hopper on top. You could fill a half gallon jug in a second. You set stops on the cylinder so every shot is exactly the same.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I would imagine Ladish Tri-clover would carry a small filter, but never looked. They make SS fittings and pipe.

Crazy Roland


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

I figured the items would be more than I can afford. I sell to raise $ for a cancer foundation so I am pinching pennies. I thought the valve by itself would be in the $1-200.00 range but I am seeing higher prices. 
I use compressed air on my current tank to increase flow which works very well but is not as simple an operation as an auto valve. I looked at bottling tanks but they are too much $ right now. Maybe next year.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

challenger said:


> I use compressed air on my current tank to increase flow which works very well but is not as simple an operation as an auto valve.


Be very careful using compressed air on a vessel. Even at low pressures a tank can explode if it is not designed to handle the flex.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Be very careful using compressed air on a vessel. Even at low pressures a tank can explode if it is not designed to handle the flex.


Good advice. This is a plastic tub and I only use a couple of pounds at most.


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## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

I also sell my honey and use funds for breast cancer research. I have purchased a Maxant tank where I apply a small amount of heat and use their dripless stainless steel valve. I do not have an automatic bottle filler but am considering it. Check Dadant.


challenger said:


> I figured the items would be more than I can afford. I sell to raise $ for a cancer foundation so I am pinching pennies. I thought the valve by itself would be in the $1-200.00 range but I am seeing higher prices.
> I use compressed air on my current tank to increase flow which works very well but is not as simple an operation as an auto valve. I looked at bottling tanks but they are too much $ right now. Maybe next year.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

woodedareas said:


> I also sell my honey and use funds for breast cancer research. I have purchased a Maxant tank where I apply a small amount of heat and use their dripless stainless steel valve. I do not have an automatic bottle filler but am considering it. Check Dadant.



Can I ask which Maxant unit you bought? I thought they were all heated but I may be wrong. I suppose I could deal with a gravity type bottling system but I don't know how fast they fill given an average temperature. When I put a little pressure in the tank I am using I fill a bottle every 7 seconds .With no pressure at the same temperature it takes 30 seconds. 30 seconds is like an eternity to me. For a case of 24 1lb bottles it takes me 15 minutes to fill and cap. Then the labels take another 6 minutes or so. That means almost 25 minutes per case of 24 bottles and that is when everything is set up, clean and right at hand. I should add several more minutes to each cycle to include the preparation etc.
Thanks
Thanks


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## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

I use this model but also purchased the dripless valve.
MODEL 600-2 200# or 16 gallons
17.25" Outer Diameter x 24" Outer Height
15.25" Inner Diameter x 21" Inner Height
$999.00
Yes it takes time but I only use 8 ounce glass hex jars as they are more attractive than 1# bottles.The heat in the Maxant tank is from the water jacket that surrounds the internal tank of honey. I bottle over a period of days and apply labels periodically when time permits. The only other option that I am aware of is to purchase an automatic filler but you will still have to place each bottle in it and when finished place on the cap and the label. If you have a larger production all of this could be automated.
Good Luck



challenger said:


> Can I ask which Maxant unit you bought? I thought they were all heated but I may be wrong. I suppose I could deal with a gravity type bottling system but I don't know how fast they fill given an average temperature. When I put a little pressure in the tank I am using I fill a bottle every 7 seconds .With no pressure at the same temperature it takes 30 seconds. 30 seconds is like an eternity to me. For a case of 24 1lb bottles it takes me 15 minutes to fill and cap. Then the labels take another 6 minutes or so. That means almost 25 minutes per case of 24 bottles and that is when everything is set up, clean and right at hand. I should add several more minutes to each cycle to include the preparation etc.
> Thanks
> Thanks


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

woodedareas said:


> I use this model but also purchased the dripless valve.
> MODEL 600-2 200# or 16 gallons
> 17.25" Outer Diameter x 24" Outer Height
> 15.25" Inner Diameter x 21" Inner Height
> $999.00


Man, I remember paying (company) $350 for a 250 gallon tank. Actually I bought two but they were for storage and I pressurized these vessels to 30psi. Lauri had some 60 gallon tanks she was trying to off. I think you guys missed the boat not grabbing one of them.


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## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

Acebird
You are correct they are very expensive. I have noted that they are made extremely well and will last longer than me.I think they are a good product and have worked well. I did have one problem. I let some honey about 2 inches deep sit in the tank for a month or so and when I reheated i found the dripless valve was clogged with crystallized honey. I just removed the valve and cleaned the tank. If the valve could be heated it would be helpful to me.



Acebird said:


> Man, I remember paying (company) $350 for a 250 gallon tank. Actually I bought two but they were for storage and I pressurized these vessels to 30psi. Lauri had some 60 gallon tanks she was trying to off. I think you guys missed the boat not grabbing one of them.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

These aren't just tanks..they are thermostaticly controlled water jacketed heavy guage. Anyone can source a cheap tank and make a project out of it....a maxant bottling tank is a solution ready to put into service to bottle honey and will last a few lifetimes.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

We've used ours in an unheated space in the winter. A heat gun will work as well as anything, and doesn't add to the complexity of the tank.


woodedareas said:


> Acebird
> You are correct they are very expensive. I have noted that they are made extremely well and will last longer than me.I think they are a good product and have worked well. I did have one problem. I let some honey about 2 inches deep sit in the tank for a month or so and when I reheated i found the dripless valve was clogged with crystallized honey. I just removed the valve and cleaned the tank. If the valve could be heated it would be helpful to me.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

challenger said:


> For a case of 24 1lb bottles it takes me 15 minutes to fill and cap.


That's not terrible for a no-tech solution. The heated bottling tank will decrease that to maybe 6 minutes. I can fill 12 12oz hex jars, cap and box in about 3 minutes 20 seconds using a water jacketed bottler with a no-drip valve.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deknow said:


> These aren't just tanks..they are thermostaticly controlled water jacketed heavy guage.


Is it a closed system or do you provide the hot water and circulator? If it is closed I would think they would use oil not water.


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## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

Its a complete system with the water jacket surrounding the inner tank containing the honey. The thermostat and best control unit screw into the tank very similar to the old metal heating units we used to use to heat a cup of coffee. They are nice unit and as i said well constructed. There are pictures on the Maxant site.I have had mine for about 1 year and am pleased with it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

woodedareas said:


> Acebird
> You are correct they are very expensive. I have noted that they are made extremely well and will last longer than me.I think they are a good product and have worked well. I did have one problem. I let some honey about 2 inches deep sit in the tank for a month or so and when I reheated i found the dripless valve was clogged with crystallized honey. I just removed the valve and cleaned the tank. If the valve could be heated it would be helpful to me.


Considering how it will last until your kids sell it at your estate sale and still get a good price for it, it isn't all that expensive.

You didn't turn the heat up high enough. But you worked it out. You could have poured hot water over it a cpl times to loosen things up.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

OK I see the picture. Doesn't answer my question.
http://www.maxantindustries.com/bottling.html

Where is the heating element and is it a close system?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Brian, do you see the red canister on the side of the tank? That's the heat control unit. It has a dial to set the heat temp. Basically it is a hot water heater w/ a dial on the end of it. It's a double walled tank w/ a heating element in the bottom. Yes, a closed system. Though there is an opening near the top on the front where water is added as needed, which is always open. There is a sight glass and a drain plug.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Acebird said:


> OK I see the picture. Doesn't answer my question.
> http://www.maxantindustries.com/bottling.html
> 
> Where is the heating element and is it a close system?


That red unit at the bottom right is the heater with integrated thermostat. If this thermostatically controlled heating element is unscrewed from the unit you will see the space between the outer jacket and the inner tank that holds the honey. There is also the sight glass tube on the left side that allows one to see the water level that is held in the jacket. The water is filled and drained as desired.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Yes, a closed system. Though there is an opening near the top on the front where water is added as needed, which is always open.


Just smiling a bit. If it is vented it is an open system. So the heating element is on the bottom and you can replace it when it craps out? Jacketed vessels that I am use to would go around the tank having an inlet at the bottom and and an outlet at the top. It is like a pipe that is cut in half and welded continuously around the vessel. the tanks that I bought were unusual. They had like another tank that was three inches bigger then the vessel and totally open on the top. I believe these vessels were used for cooling not heating originally. When we contract built our first 250 gallon mixer it had a jacket like the maxant, tank in a tank but the jacket only went half way up. The conductive adhesive that we made in this mixer had an exothermic reaction and we were concerned about heat gain. The steel was so thick on this mixer that it radiated the heat away and we never had to use the water jacket for cooling.

Back to the Maxant bottling tank... I am envisioning a heating element on the bottom side of the tank that has to heat through the jacket tank to heat the water (still don't understand why they are not using oil and forget the sight glass). That water then heats the inside tank to heat the honey. If they bonded a thick aluminum plate to the bottom of the vessel (you have seen these pots) and insulated the outside sides of the vessel it would be more efficient and maybe 40% cheaper (you don't need the jacketed vessel). Either the beekeeper stirs the honey or they offer a stirring apparatus to make it hands free.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

challenger said:


> That red unit at the bottom right is the heater with integrated thermostat.


Your kidding? What does it take two days to get the heat to equalize?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Back to the Maxant bottling tank... I am envisioning a heating element on the bottom side of the tank that has to heat through the jacket tank to heat the water (still don't understand why they are not using oil and forget the sight glass). That water then heats the inside tank to heat the honey. If they bonded a thick aluminum plate to the bottom of the vessel (you have seen these pots) and insulated the outside sides of the vessel it would be more efficient and maybe 40% cheaper (you don't need the jacketed vessel). Either the beekeeper stirs the honey or they offer a stirring apparatus to make it hands free.


I am sure that Jake would love you to go to their facility and consult on better ways to build a tank inside of a tank w/ a heater on the bottom and a no drip valve on the front.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Your kidding? What does it take two days to get the heat to equalize?


Yes, of course it does, just like your home hot water heater.

No, Brian. It takes a tank of 4 buckets of crystaliozed honey only a cpl hours to heat and liquify the crystalized honey.

I thought in a previous Post you stated that you had one of these. Or had used one of these.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Just smiling a bit. If it is vented it is an open system.



My God! You ask a question in the most condescending manner, I know this because I've read several of your posts, threads etc, you receive a "laymans" answer and then go on to comment that you are "just smiling a bit"! As if the people that answered your questions were so completely inferior to your intelligence? You knew all along is it was a closed or open system BUT you wanted someone to tell you the incorrect answer so you could correct them. Who are you kidding man? Get a darn job will you! Your social skills are lacking almost as much as your beekeeping skills.
Unbelievable!


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Yes, of course it does, just like your home hot water heater.
> 
> No, Brian. It takes a tank of 4 buckets of crystaliozed honey only a cpl hours to heat and liquify the crystalized honey.
> 
> I thought in a previous Post you stated that you had one of these. Or had used one of these.


sqkcrk-please don't rattle this monsters cage. It's like talking to a dog. He will look at you and give you the idea he is "with you" and then run off and do whatever he had already decided to do. He insulted a few of us in this thread and personally I will have nothing more to do with ANY threads that he is part of. His demeanor and manners are that of a petulant child at best and a psychopath at worst. I've never encountered such a person on the many forums I am a member of.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Yes, of course it does, just like your home hot water heater.


No that is nothing like your home hot water heater if what was described is true.

Challenger, I ask question on the forum because I do not know. I am sorry that it ticks you off and you think I have some ulterior motive. You can go to the Maxant website and get absolutely nothing on how something works so I am forced to ask people who have the equipment because I do not. There is an ignore function if my question bother you that much.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

challenger said:


> sqkcrk-please don't


I already haven't. I know.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Does this tank that is nothing like a water heater use a water heater electric element("Cal Rod")? And a Water heater type Thermostat? and does it heat water?

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I hope you got to read that Roland. If you were being serious.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Is it a closed system or do you provide the hot water and circulator? If it is closed I would think they would use oil not water.


What?? :scratch: :s

In a "closed system" _Engineer _Ace would use oil? 

Lets see, closed means not open to the air, and you are going to heat oil in a _sealed _tank? Surely you are aware that oil _expands _when it get hot ... 



... and hot oil expansion in a *closed *system means ... :ws:




:gh:

Even heating _water _in a _closed _system is asking for trouble. Boiler explosion, anyone?


Probably best to leave bottling tank design to the _professionals _at Maxant, Ace. :lpf:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Graham, we agreed not to help.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

So, you are proposing that neither you nor I are allowed to respond in a thread where Ace has already posted? 


I can see why Ace might like that, but that scenario seems to me somewhat like letting the fox _run _the chicken coop!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No, I would say that he has been responded to and it's up to the person who asked the original question to decide which advice to follow. Answer the original question and let chips fall where they may.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

challenger said:


> I am trying to find information on those valves I've seen on tv that fill a bottle a precise amount when the bottle is pressed up against it.
> 
> I am also looking for some type of filter that I could put in line as a final filter prior to bottling.


Those valves require heated product to work consistently. (you've seen honey bottling on TV?)

In line filters work best when the honey has been warmed too. I haven't looked in the catalogs lately but there are stainless steel canisters w/ stainless steel mesh baskets in them which nylon bags hang in through which the honey strains through. Maybe that would work for you.

Or you could find a round screen cone to fit the top of a tank. One then lays nylon cloth on that screen and pours their honey on that allowing it to strain down into the tank. Again, warm honey works best and the cloth should be dampened w/ water first. But newly extracted unheated honey will strain through eventually.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Lets see, closed means not open to the air, and you are going to heat oil in a _sealed _tank?...heating _water _in a _closed _system is asking for trouble. Boiler explosion, anyone?


Surely you have seen an oil filled electric space heater? Google it. And certainly you have heard of a hot water system used to heat billions of homes. Green county can't be that far out in the woods. Can it?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> And certainly you have heard of a hot water system used to heat billions of homes.



Uhh, Ace, you specified a CLOSED system. A domestic hot water system is not really a closed system, yet even so current code requires an _*expansion tank*_ connected to (or close by) hot water heaters and of course a *pressure relief valve *on the tank itself.

More on _expansion tanks_ here:


> Those of you who live in a home built in the last six or seven years may have noticed a large balloon-like tank connected to the piping near your hot water tank. This device is known as a thermal expansion tank. Its purpose is to protect your household plumbing in the event of a pressure increase brought about by the heating of the water in your hot water tank.
> http://www.co.union.nc.us/PropertyS...gThermalExpansionTanks/tabid/438/Default.aspx


Are you now going to add an _expansion tank_ and pressure _relief valve_ to your CLOSED SYSTEM oil heated honey bottling tank? :scratch:

If you truly did have a CLOSED SYSTEM for heating honey, it would require a _Boiler Inspection Certificate _in many cases. Pressure tank design is no place for _amateurs_.


Why can't you just accept that Maxant has already selected the design features for a bottling tank that offer the best combination of safety, economy and functionality. :lpf:

.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Uhh, Ace, you specified a CLOSED system. A domestic hot water system is not really a closed system,
> 
> .


Do a little more googling ... you will get there.

The reason for using oil is so you don't need the expansion tank. it doesn't freeze or boil in the temperature range that you heat honey. I am not even sure you need a relieve valve.
Do some more googling, Here I will get you started.
http://www.staples.com/office/suppl...341&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=863341&KPID=863341



> Permanently sealed fins with pure dithermic oil


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Where do you put the *honey *in that Staples heater, Engineer Ace? :scratch: :s


I could have sworn that the whole point was to _*heat honey*_ in a bottling tank so it could be bottled? If your system isn't going to do that, you might find that the market is somewhat _limited_. :lpf:



... or maybe you could _program a PLC _to handle all these messy little details for you!


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

I think the advice on bottling honey warm is what will improve my bottling more than anything. I will first look into finding a suitable method of increasing the temperature of the tub I am using and I think I already have one free solution. I have always kept snakes of one type or another. All non venomous. Well almost all. I did have one copper head for a while but that is another story which ended well for the snake but not so well for my arm :shhhh:
I have several "reptiel tank heater" and they are the high quality type with very accurate thermostats. I am going to wrap one that I have around this tub and see how it behaves. I'll set it to 95* and I think the honey will get there over night considering our day time temps right now are well above that many days per month. The other thing I'll do is install a larger valve. The one that came with the tank has an opening that is only about 5/16" so making it a full 1/2" will help greatly.
Thanks for all the helpful idea BTW. Oh-and the non-helpful content was very entertaining as well. I look forward to reading more of it!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> The reason for using oil is so you don't need the expansion tank. it doesn't freeze or boil in the temperature range that you heat honey.[HIGHLIGHT] I am not even sure [/HIGHLIGHT]you need a relieve valve.



OK, Ace, you don't build a pressure relief valve into your CLOSED SYSTEM because you say that oil "doesn't boil in the temperature range that you heat honey". 

What happens if/when the thermostat that is controlling the heater has a problem and sticks in the "ON" position? :s :scratch: Do you think that the temperature of that oil might climb higher than you are anticipating? 

Pressure relief valves are not for what you _EXPECT _to happen - they are there for what you _DON'T EXPECT_ to happen. They are there for when everything goes wrong.

.............

This is an example of why you and I get into these situations. You make these kinds of product "improvement" decisions without thinking about the consequences of your choices, and then defend those _poor _choices to the ends of the the earth.

You _could _have earlier just said, "Oops! I didn't consider that part", or something similar and we would have moved on. Instead, you take the situation to silly extremes to try to justify the initial bad choice. 

If this was a one-off event, I'd let it slide - everybody posts bad information on occasion, including me. But you frequently seem to try to _justify _posting misinformation instead of correcting it, and you don't help yourself any by doing that.

.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

challenger said:


> I think the advice on bottling honey warm is what will improve my bottling more than anything.


You could put the vessel in the attic and bottle in the evening same day.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Huh!

From the original post ....



> I am doing my bottling manually using a 10 gallon plastic bottling tank.


Lets see, 10 gallons of honey ... about 120 pounds ... are we carrying it up/down stairs to the attic, or one of those funky folding attic ladders? :scratch:




... I continue to remain amused ...:lpf:


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Hmmmm, and that will work in winter?

Crazy Roland


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

you could use a element with a low enough wattage that it will never be able to heat the oil enough to cause pressure to build, that is how the oil filled domestic heaters do it, and that is why they take so long to heat up.

I would think for filling a bottle you would want to heat the honey up until it is liquid enough to flow through a dosing pump the cylinder style would probably work good for this and add some sort of limits to the cylinder to make different sizes of doses for different jar sizes. 

using compressed air on your tank may not be a good idea for contamination reasons, most compressors bypass some of their oil into the air and that could get into your honey. Food grade compressors are a lot more expensive than domestic ones.




Rader Sidetrack said:


> OK, Ace, you don't build a pressure relief valve into your CLOSED SYSTEM because you say that oil "doesn't boil in the temperature range that you heat honey".
> 
> What happens if/when the thermostat that is controlling the heater has a problem and sticks in the "ON" position? :s :scratch: Do you think that the temperature of that oil might climb higher than you are anticipating?
> 
> ...


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_Spreerider_, I agree that your suggestion of a very low wattage heater is one possibility. However, for a honey bottling tank, the user may wish to add another pail of [cold] honey in the middle of the bottling process, and a low wattage heater may not be able to keep up with that kind of usage.

Its true that there _*might *_be improvements possible to the current bottling tank design, but no one has identified what benefit(s) _might _be achieved by switching away from the current system of an OPEN system with _water _as the medium of exchange. What benefit does a _closed _system with _oil_ offer? :s


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> _Spreerider_ What benefit does a _closed _system with _oil_ offer? :s


Cheaper and less fuss. It would not require a sight glass and would never have to be filled or emptied and could stand freezing temperatures. This discussion started from the 1000 dollar cost of a what is it a 16-18 gallon tank to soften honey? I forget.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

spreerider said:


> you could use a element with a low enough wattage that it will never be able to heat the oil enough to cause pressure to build, that is how the oil filled domestic heaters do it, and that is why they take so long to heat up.


I mentioned oil because there already existed a double tank for heat transfer. I don't see the need for a liquid heat transfer system unless there was steam or hot water used elsewhere in the building.


> I would think for filling a bottle you would want to heat the honey up until it is liquid enough to flow through a dosing pump the cylinder style would probably work good for this and add some sort of limits to the cylinder to make different sizes of doses for different jar sizes.


The commercial tube filling machines that I am familiar with have a mechanical stop on the cylinder to adjust the shot size.


> using compressed air on your tank may not be a good idea for contamination reasons, most compressors bypass some of their oil into the air and that could get into your honey. Food grade compressors are a lot more expensive than domestic ones.


It would be cheaper to use a oil-less compressor from Harbor Freight with the necessary filters in the air line. Perfectly legal. What is not legal is pressurizing a non-coded vessel.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Cheaper and less fuss. It would not require a sight glass and would never have to be filled or emptied and could stand freezing temperatures.


OK, could you explain the _*cheaper *_part? How can that be? Wouldn't the manufacturer have to _buy _oil to put in there?

And the extra _weight _of the tank with oil permanently embedded in it? Is that a benefit too?  Must be really _fun _when you carry it up those attic stairs you mentioned earlier.

Do you really want to pay more for shipping a heavier tank with all that oil? :scratch:


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

oil is a better thermal conductor than water so the efficiency of the system would increase,

acebird i was thinking of limit switches because you could easy press a button to switch between jar sizes without having to adjust a mechanical stop, i am an industrial electrician i like adding switches and making things more automated even if its not really necessary


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

spreerider said:


> you could use a element with a low enough wattage that it will never be able to heat the oil enough to cause pressure to build, that is how the oil filled domestic heaters do it, and that is why they take so long to heat up.
> 
> I would think for filling a bottle you would want to heat the honey up until it is liquid enough to flow through a dosing pump the cylinder style would probably work good for this and add some sort of limits to the cylinder to make different sizes of doses for different jar sizes.
> 
> using compressed air on your tank may not be a good idea for contamination reasons, most compressors bypass some of their oil into the air and that could get into your honey. Food grade compressors are a lot more expensive than domestic ones.


Or you could make a simple low tech procedure ever more complex.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The equipment that I was referring to was very old and simple. Today I would expect it to be driven by an "electric cylinder" that already has the intelligence on where the cylinder is.

Of course you can use limit switches. I worked in the medical industry and things had to be exact and validated every so often. It is easier to validate and certify something that has mechanical stops when it comes to weights and measures. If you under fill a tube you are in trouble and if you overfill a tube you are really in trouble because you can't seal the tube and it makes one heck of a mess.

Rader, how much do you think having that fragil sight glass on the tank cost? If the manufacturer were going to produce the bottling tank with a sealed oil heat transfer it wouldn't be as big. It would actually be lighter than it is now. Really, look at the design of the space heater. There probably isn't a quart of oil in that thing and it puts out 1500 watts. What do they rate the hot water heater on the Dadant tank? How do they get the heat all the way around the tank if it is generated by the red device on the side? How can it possibly be even?


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Or you could make a simple low tech procedure ever more complex.


i like to automate simple processes its what i do, you could also add a bottle switching conveyor with a filled eye then only have to put empty bottles on a line


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> could stand freezing temperatures.


Who cares about that? The Maxant tank can too.

I think Brian and spree should go into business together and see if they can sell their system.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Who cares about that? The Maxant tank can too.


Not without emptying the water out.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Do you keep your tank out doors or in an unheated building? Do you even have a bottling tank?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> How do they get the heat all the way around the tank if it is generated by the red device on the side? How can it possibly be even?


Ace, are you _really _this clueless? :scratch: Or is this just some kind of trick?


Do you not understand that the tank is double walled, and that the WATER (or oil) is the medium that is in between the two tank walls and transfers the heat from the heater (the _red thing_, in your parlance)? The water (or oil) is what distributes the heat evenly!

I don't have one of those bottling tanks, but I would expect that the water (oil) would extend a fair ways up the sides of the tank to improve heat transfer to the honey on the inside of the tank.

How can you be redesigning - an allegedly _improved _bottling tank - when you don't understand how the current one works? :s


:ws:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If Brian wants to bottle honey to an exact measure a digital filler can be attached to the Maxant tank.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> How can you be redesigning - an allegedly _improved _bottling tank - when you don't understand how the current one works? :s


Oh, come on Graham, this happens all the time, doesn't it?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Maxant Bottling Tanks. (read my tag line) "That which works, persist." It works. It persists. The last improvement, the No Drip Valve, may be the last improvement.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

FYI, the heaters that Maxant tanks use ....



> These tanks are shipped complete with [HIGHLIGHT]Watlow immersion heaters [/HIGHLIGHT] ....)
> 
> http://www.maxantindustries.com/bottling.html


That means the heating element is directly immersed in the water between the inner and outer tanks. And that also means that _IF _oil was used, the heating element would be _immersed _in the oil. And if the heating element has some kind of mechanical integrity failure - *cracked *maybe - well, lets just not go there! 

More on Watlow immersion heaters here:
http://www.watlow.com/products/heaters/immersion_heaters.cfm

... the "red thing" .... as you can see in this image from Maxant


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

using oil in a heating system similar to this is quite common, i dont know why you would bother with a non industrial or large commercial tank but wax melting tanks that i have used have oil inside, not all oil is highly flammable some require very high temperatures to ignite and no heating element is going to get close even in a fault condition, 

electrical transformers are often filled with oil as it removes the heat from large ones far better than air.

for a honey tank i cant see why you would bother you will not be using that much power that you need the extra efficiency or speed.

i wonder if there is any market for an automated honey filter bottling station for medium to small scale facilities, large scale would already be done in a factory setting so it is already available to them but pricey for a medium operation...




Rader Sidetrack said:


> FYI, the heaters that Maxant tanks use ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

spreerider said:


> i wonder if there is any market for an automated honey filter bottling station for medium to small scale facilities, large scale would already be done in a factory setting so it is already available to them but pricey for a medium operation...


How automated? I bottle 20,000 to 30,000 lbs of honey each year. Some weeks, every year, I don't bottle honey but most weeks I do. And some times I am bottling honey every day for two or three weeks getting inventory stocked up before I am away for 6 weeks to 2 months, so those left home don't have to bottle anything.

My two 300 lb capacity Maxant tanks handle my needs just fine. An automatic filler would be nice, but I'm doing fine w/out it.


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

it could be as automated as you want but more would cost more, not sure i have the time to devote to designing and prototyping patenting etc a system i doubt i would sell many of if any at all once the pricetag was figured out

you could make a mini factory though just add honey and a huge hopper full of jars and lids and rolls of labels and turn it on and it could fill cap label and package your honey, but the investment would be steep on something like that.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

You may be interested in the links in this earlier thread about honey bottle filling systems:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?205959-Bottling-Machines-Setup

From that thread here is one that Dadant offers: https://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=35_75&products_id=415

and some from Germany: http://bot.nassenheider.com/

More links in the thread.

---------------

I am well aware that large electrical transformers often use oil internally. And one would hope that the oil used would be the _least _flammable oil practical. And yet, sometimes they still burn like crazy. Here is a story about a large substation _oil-filled _transformer near me that recently caught fire and burned for a long time:

http://www.greenevillesun.com/news/article_bbea77e2-e77b-5762-bd82-94d186d878be.html

Maybe the oil inside made it difficult to put the fire out? 


I still haven't seen any convincing reasons to substitute oil for water in a honey bottling tank.

.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Spreerider-good point on the air supply from an air compressor. I am currently using a simple garden pump sprayer that I purchased brand new and it has only been used for pressurizing this low tech honey tank I am using. Of course I cleaned it prior to hooking it up. I like the idea of using a constant, regulated air pressure supply and I certainly have the air compressor to handle this much volume and pressure. I think I would simply isolate this air using a small bladder tank. To be extra safe I could pull a vacuum on a small newly purchased bladder tank after washing it out and then I could put a filter on the supply side to make certain no contaminants get into the honey tank. Easy stuff as you well know.
I am somewhat surprised that I cannot find a low dollar valve that can be adjusted to dispense 1lb of honey. Maybe I am looking in the wrong google universe. It would seem to me that a piston driven valve with an adjustable throw and properly placed check valves would be something somewhat easily attained? I even thought of a large syringe that could be plumbed into a "T" fitting with check valves and driving it with a step motor if a properly sized crankshaft??? Then I remembered that I had to lie my way out of high school and I put myself in "time out". I just don't have the brains to engineer what I'd like to do but it still frustrates me that the parts to do it seem to made from unobtainium.
Another person mentioned trying an irrigation valve with a foot operated switch. I thought about this for a bit and figured there would be a problem getting the drips under control???
Wow! This is way too much thinking for me.
I am going to the attic to rest up.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> That means the heating element is directly immersed in the water in between the two tank walls.


Certainly not between the side walls. It is possible that the bottom of the honey tank is above where the red blob thing is which would allow the heating element to be below the bottom of the honey tank. If so it would mean there is a lot of water in the bottom of the tank. At least the thermodynamics makes more sense that way.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

spreerider said:


> it could be as automated as you want but more would cost more,


I have gone down this road spreerider. You are dealing with beekeepers who have not put a price on their time. For the most part their time is worth nothing so it makes it impossible to justify doing anything better or more efficient.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

challenger said:


> I am going to the attic to rest up.


Is the one pound jar glass? You have already pressurized your tank (low pressure you said right?) You make a filling nozzle that seals on the jar rim. In this filling nozzle is a float valve that lets the air out of the jar until the honey reaches the float which closes the vent and stops the flow of honey into the jar. You will need another valve to stop the flow when you transfer the nozzle to another jar. A standard ball valve will work just fine.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Certainly not between the side walls.


You are correct. The "walls" word that I used was not the best choice. I have modified that earlier post to read instead:



> That means the heating element is directly immersed in the water between the inner and outer tanks.


and _credited _you.


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

I am impressed Sqkcrk. I want to see you inspect a hundred hives this winter since you winter your bees a hour from me. I would like to see your bottling operation also but New York is a little far....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sure, come on down. It's only an hour from Ridgeville to Conway?


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

Ridgeville to Conway is a little over an hour. Myrtle Beach is about 90 min.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Betterbee has just announced that they are importing and selling Lyson brand beekeeping equipment. One of the items available is a bottling machine that claims a throughput of 350 jars per hour.

This product line starts at about $2600, somewhat less than Dadant. More info here:
http://www.betterbee.com/Products/Bottling/LYSON204001


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't know what is normal but they sounds very slow. 350/hr


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I don't know what is normal but they sounds very slow. 350/hr


:scratch:

Lets see ... 60 seconds in a minute .... 60 minutes in an hour ....

350/3600=

One jar every 10.3 seconds. 



:gh:

... seem like this is just _third grade_ _arithmetic _... :lpf:


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

My fastest filling and capping time is about 16 seconds per jar using a similar tank to Maxant discussed here. I'm referencing 12 oz jars, not sure what they used as reference.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

AstroBee said:


> My fastest filling and capping time is about 16 seconds per jar using a similar tank to Maxant discussed here. I'm referencing 12 oz jars, not sure what they used as reference.


16 seconds? AHHHHHH! Toooo sloooowwww!
Just me but I would find a way to out just a little pressure inside of that tank. Even a very small amount of pressure will speed that baby up big time.
I am sure the "extreme danger" warnings will be posted here but maybe to save more than required make sure it is:
clean air
only a safe amount of pressure meaning safe for the equipment and the operator

I am glad I know now what the speed of the store bought bottling tanks is because there is no way I am spending that kind of money on something that I can concoct myself. Maybe if it was for me personally I'd spring for it but I am trying to my best to raise money for chordoma. On second thought I know I would spring for a commercial style because I love new shiny professional equipment. I also love over kill which isn't always a good thing BTW

For now I have decided to wrap my tank with a controllable, flexible heat mat and continue using pressure. With this set up I can fill much faster than the commercial bottlers and this set up was nearly free.

Good luck


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> One jar every 10.3 seconds.


I have no need for something that fast. Does it have a speed control?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

AstroBee said:


> My fastest filling and capping time is about 16 seconds per jar using a similar tank to Maxant discussed here. I'm referencing 12 oz jars, not sure what they used as reference.


I never thought to time filling a jar. How do you do that? Set a stop watch when you start a case and stop it when you are finished? Why bother? It's gotta get done, so just do it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

challenger said:


> 16 seconds? AHHHHHH! Toooo sloooowwww!
> Just me but I would find a way to out just a little pressure inside of that tank.


A full tank is all the pressure you need.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I never thought to time filling a jar. How do you do that? Set a stop watch when you start a case and stop it when you are finished? Why bother? It's gotta get done, so just do it.


Oh wow Mark, pay someone to do the job and the formula changes.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Now why would I want to do that?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

That is how you get wealthy.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That was never a goal of mine.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Speed is not always the most profitable method. What is the accuracy of the filling systems mentioned? If you are giving away 10 percent, but doing it in half the time, you may be "racing to the poor house". Or worse, fills 10 percent less on occasion, racing to jail. 

I prefer an Elgin piston filler/Resina capper/ Label-Aire labeler combination, good for around 1500 lbs an hour, depending on jar size. Glass only. Do not use with plastic.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> What is the accuracy of the filling systems mentioned?


Don't make me laugh. I have never seen a spec on filing honey jars and a lot of beekeepers fill by eye. Mark could be one of them.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Don't make me laugh. I have never seen a spec on filing honey jars ....


Did you bother to _*read *_the link I supplied earlier? :scratch:



> Filling accuracy +/-1 g
> 
> http://www.betterbee.com/Products/Bottling/LYSON204001



I'm one of those _rolling on the floor laughing_ :lpf:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

That is the machine accuracy not the requirement to sell honey. So don't get yourself dirty rolling on the floor.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Looks like a gear pump [similar to the ez fill that we run).
Such units measure the number of rotations of the gears....they don't actually weigh honey.
It may well hold to a gram tollerance under ideal circumstances, but it won't know if an air bubble or density variations come into play.
It cannot claim to be accurate to a gram if it doesn't actually weigh anything.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I never thought to time filling a jar. How do you do that? Set a stop watch when you start a case and stop it when you are finished? Why bother? It's gotta get done, so just do it.





sqkcrk said:


> A full tank is all the pressure you need.





deknow said:


> Looks like a gear pump [similar to the ez fill that we run).
> Such units measure the number of rotations of the gears....they don't actually weigh honey.
> It may well hold to a gram tollerance under ideal circumstances, but it won't know if an air bubble or density variations come into play.
> It cannot claim to be accurate to a gram if it doesn't actually weigh anything.





sqkcrk said:


> I never thought to time filling a jar. How do you do that? Set a stop watch when you start a case and stop it when you are finished? Why bother? It's gotta get done, so just do it.


I guess for me it is such a monotonous job that I want to get it over with ASAP. What I did to time my filling process was to look at my watch when I sat down with a case of 24 12oz bottles and then look at it again after I finished filling and capping these bottles. That is about as high tech as I can handle. I had my neighbor's 9 year old do the division 



sqkcrk said:


> A full tank is all the pressure you need.


There you go again. This just isn't going to do it for me (although it is very true that the weight of the honey does make it come out quicker). That's why I added to air. It cut the time so much that now I am looking for "more power Captain". I need a system that, "goes to eleven" ( tell me what cult movie classic this quote is from)



deknow said:


> Looks like a gear pump [similar to the ez fill that we run).
> Such units measure the number of rotations of the gears....they don't actually weigh honey.
> It may well hold to a gram tollerance under ideal circumstances, but it won't know if an air bubble or density variations come into play.
> It cannot claim to be accurate to a gram if it doesn't actually weigh anything.


You see? This is why I ask questions. I thought these bottling systems were piston valves. Now a gear pump driven system would of course work but I honestly didn't think these would hold up to a high volume operation. That's why I am pretty much guessing about nearly everything I do I guess
A gear pump would seem so easy (not for me but for someone with the proper back ground) to me. Put a resolver or whatever the thing that counts revolutions on the shaft of the pump or whatever is driving the pump. Size the gear pump properly and feed the signal into some sort of made in china control/logic chip things and have that control some additional relay/contactor/power thingy and voila! The gear pump could reverse a tiny amount after each fill so no drips come out. It could start when a sensor "sees" a bottle being put under the spigot or maybe even a hard wired micro switch, and the pump starts. Bottle fills neatly and there is actually no panic or rush in making sure the bottle gets put under the spigot because the spigot will not put out honey unless there is a bottle under it. A foot switch or whatever in series with the bottle proximity sensor keeps the thing from filling the floor if it gets triggered accidentally by a bug or a 3 year old nose picker. Another sensor makes sure there is something to feed into the pump so it won't pump air and have to be recalibrated and some other logic/sensors to take care of the other things I've forgotten to mention. Could a system like this be all that expensive to design and build? Certainly the parts would be less than $500.00 IF using all brand new stuff. I suspect I could cobble something like this together given enough time but for the right type of engineer I bet this set up would literally be a weekend project. 
I still like piston valves for this dreamed up dealeo. They just seem much more flashy and high tech compared to a gear pump.

As far as accuracy in my current system I use the eye ball method and I've weighed my bottles enough times to know that I would bet money, and I mean BIG money you know, like $5.00 or so, that I am within .10% of a pound on average ( I actually over fill just a tiny bit because, after all, we are dealing with the public). There are few things more accurate than a good set of eyes. Or a set like mine with a good pair of glasses. Realistically who in the world could be off 10%? that is 1.2oz +- for a pound of honey! If the eyes are that bad then farm the bottling out.

I am seriously going to look into getting information on a motor with built in feedback. I already have a food grade gear motor. Not that I am actually going to built this thing but if it so happens that doing so as a winter project is simple enough that a person like me could do it who knows?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I bet that Ace will be _unable to resist_ critiquing _challenger_'s proposed filling machine design. 




opcorn:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

challenger said:


> I guess for me it is such a monotonous job that I want to get it over with ASAP. What I did to time my filling process was to look at my watch when I sat down with a case of 24 12oz bottles and then look at it again after I finished filling and capping these bottles. That is about as high tech as I can handle. I had my neighbor's 9 year old do the division


I would think that if you find filling jars monotonous then timing the filling of jars would only make it more so. Whatever floats your boat.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I never thought to time filling a jar. How do you do that? Set a stop watch when you start a case and stop it when you are finished? Why bother? It's gotta get done, so just do it.





sqkcrk said:


> A full tank is all the pressure you need.





deknow said:


> Looks like a gear pump [similar to the ez fill that we run).
> Such units measure the number of rotations of the gears....they don't actually weigh honey.
> It may well hold to a gram tollerance under ideal circumstances, but it won't know if an air bubble or density variations come into play.
> It cannot claim to be accurate to a gram if it doesn't actually weigh anything.





sqkcrk said:


> I would think that if you find filling jars monotonous then timing the filling of jars would only make it more so. Whatever floats your boat.


I agree. I've only timed the process a couple of times when something in my high tech, super advanced bottling system changed.
I get curious anyway so I thought I'd time a few cycles.
I wish I knew what floated my boat because i'd get more of it. Right now I'm bailing water LOL.
Thanks


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A tank of honey. Cases of empty jars and lids. One jar at a time gets it done. If the job is to get it done, does it really matter how long it takes? Unless the honey isn't flowing like you think it should? In which case, a heated tank is your answer.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

challenger said:


> I agree. I've only timed the process a couple of times when something in my high tech, super advanced bottling system changed.


There are dispensing systems that use time very effectively. You mentioned a spec of 10%, I can't believe that is actually a spec for filling jars of honey. Certainly if it was a timed dispenser would meet that spec. In reference to your eyeball system if you controlled the viscosity, temperature, and pressure of a pressurized vessel, time would give accurate results. You could use a gear pump to replenish the pressurized vessel (when you are not dispensing). The vessel could be small, less then a gallon that way you can have a high pressure to dispense quickly. Bottling plants for soda, beer and milk are very fast.

I would love to show you a robotic dispensing line that I designed and built but it is a windows media file and I can't upload it to photobucket. Basically time is the element for fluid dispensing and that system had to hold the shot within 15 grams. It never varied more than 5.


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## oldfordguy (Dec 5, 2009)

challenger said:


> goes to eleven" ( tell me what cult movie classic this quote is from)


Spinal Tap


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

oldfordguy said:


> Spinal Tap


Ding Ding Ding! 
Outstanding! You sir are a graduate of the school if higher learning that I can relate to.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, I knew the answer, even though I never saw the film. Just couldn't access the right name in my brain storage area.


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