# Where to learn more about making packages



## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

You need a funnel to get the bees into the cage. For small quantities ...find the queen......then shake bees from brood frames. For cans use soup cans and fill with "candy"(granulated sugar, powdered sugar and water boiled for a specific time)


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

My plan was roughly...
Super a single on top of excluder.
During flow smoke entrance to move bees up thru excluder.
Shake super into box with plywood pyramid bottom sloped down into a 3" or so tube.
Add queen from mating Nuc (in cage)
Add syrup can and lid. I'm not sure how the can is held in or what the holes in the can look like


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Mbeck said:


> I'm not sure how the can is held in or what the holes in the can look like


See this link for a photo of an empty package box with a support for the feeder can:
http://blog.bolandbol.com/2010/05/06/inside-the-box-first-hive-inspection/
The best photo is at the bottom of the page. The horizontal bar in the center supports the can, but still allows access to most of the underside. The "holes" are very similar to the holes in a jar feeder.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Ohh! 
I see so there must be the perfect size can to fit so that the cover can be stapled on.
Thanks for the explanation.


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## JCA Beeswax Processing (Feb 18, 2012)

I imported packages a few years ago. The company I bought from used upright screw top plastic bottles. The lids would extend out the top of the package and the bottom would rest on the bottom of the package. 2 holes were cut so bees could access syrup in bottle from just under the top of the package. Foam cubes and a wire screen allowed the bees to access syrup with out drowning too many. Sorry, no picture readily available.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The "can" that fit in my package box (and plugged the hole in the box) seems to be just a "normal" 32 oz can. If I take the label off a 32oz can of peaches, its identical to the syrup can. I assume you can buy sealed cans of syrup from bee supply vendors.

If I was making packages and needing to put holes in cans just prior to sealing the package, I'd put some small nails through a block of wood sized so that the nail points stick out of the back of the wood by about 1/4", then cap the top of the block with another block. The cap keeps the nails from backing out when you put the combined block on the syrup can and hit it with a hammer to punch all the holes in one blow. _Note, I haven't actually tried this._


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## toad (Jun 18, 2009)

Most big package producers buy cans and tops. Fill the cans with syrup and put the lid on with a machine just like the cans of anything you would buy from the store. This is a simple machine but expensive, even used, if you can find one. You can buy the cans filled and ready to go, but they aren't cheap.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks for the replies!
I have a couple ideas I'll try


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

I'd like to get some training also on making up packages for sale. Thinking about using those cardboard nucs for now and adding cost to purchase to price. But I can't image selling more than a few each year and only if my hives are at full strength and number and I need to get rid of extra bees. I also saved two old package containers and might ask a few people at my bee club for theirs.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

MDS said:


> Thinking about using those cardboard nucs for now and adding cost to purchase to price.


Why would you go through all that trouble for packages when you can sell 3-5 frame nuc's for so much more. A package is 60-80 bucks and a nuc is 100-125. Surely that is less trouble and you have way happier customers. Let the package guys sell packages don't reduce your Cadillac operation to a commodity package operation. You cant charge a premium on packages like you can nuc's once people get you name out there about your premium nuc's you will have a better investment.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Eastside,
I'd like to give it a try...see what I can learn from the process. However all you points have merit. Thanks for referring to me as a Cadillac operation I was trying to keep that a secret so that when I bust out of the gate I have the element of surprise.

A 1 quart new paint can almost fits just need to cut the hole a little bigger. A can of peaches in light syrup fits perfect.

Fact is if I made packages I would probably never need to add a can of syrup the few I made wouldn't be going far enough to need it.

I would like to make them proffesional grade... Never know when that knowledge and skill could come in handy!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The way we did it was use a shaker box, it fitted a super and went down in a kind of funnel that went into another box that held the bees.

No time was wasted finding queens, we went around the yard taking lids off and put a queen excluder on each hive, and then a box with 6 empty frames evenly spaced, and the lid got put back on, we then walked around smoking the hives heavily in the entrance and "drumming" on them with a rubber hammer. This got done to each hive 2 or 3 times. Then the boxes we put on, now full of bees, were taken off and put on the shaker box and bees shaken off the 6 frames. As the bottom box got full of bees, one guy would lift the bottom box onto his knee. The other guy had packages and a set of scales. the guy with the box on his knee would open a hatch in the box and tip bees into a funnel the other guy put into packages on the scales. The guy doing the packages would yell the other guy when there were 4 lbs of bees in the package, so he would stop tipping and the other guy would stick the tin in the package and put a new package on the scales, with the funnel, so the other guy could tip more bees in.

Hope all that makes sense.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> "drumming" on them with a rubber hammer. This got done to each hive 2 or 3 times. Hope all that makes sense.


Yes, drumming for bees.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Thanks Oldtimer - that is extremely helpful. Any tips on managing hives for bulk bees - before or after harvesting - would be extremely appreciated. I don't envision selling packages, but being able to efficiently produce a few of my own bulk bees would sure be helpful at times as I get into queen raising more. Thanks.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Makes sense the way you explained it.
One of the videos showed someone shaking from an elevated position with a person below weighting out and controlling flow of bees.

How did you keep the frames from falling out?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK well for us most of the packages were taken in our fall, after honey harvest, to send to Northern Hemisphere countries who were in springtime. So the hives were two boxes and boiling with bees, very easy to take packages from and no loss to the hives, they didn't need all those bees for winter.

The rest of the year, we only took packages off for our own use to make up our own mating nucs, so not such a big demand on the hives, but basically, we ran the hives as bee producers rather than honey producers, they were always on a flow, we'd move them to ensure that. We kept the hives stimulated as much as we could, and took packages off as the hives could spare them. Swarming was a non issue, the bees never got a chance. No varroa then so hives could do extremely well with a little TLC.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Mbeck said:


> Makes sense the way you explained it.
> One of the videos showed someone shaking from an elevated position with a person below weighting out and controlling flow of bees.
> 
> How did you keep the frames from falling out?


Hmm.. I tried to find a you tube video showing it but can't find one. For us anyway, the shaking and pouring was done seperately, there was an aluminum bee collecting box that sat on the ground, then on top of that was put the super holder / funnel. The super was put on top of this, and each frame given a good shake the bees fell down through the funnel, and into the bee collecting box. Then the super was removed, and the super holder / funnel, leaving the aluminum bee holder box, which then had the bees tipped out of it into the packages.

I know there is a you tube video showing pretty much this method because I've seen it in the past, but I couldn't find it.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

This one shows a method like you described 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oJDBEwVPr8&feature=youtube_gdata_player


This one shows the one I described

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtZPBH7TzNY&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK well that first video shows pretty much what we used to do, it's the fastest most efficient way, but it doesn't show how to get the bees into the shaker box.

But the second video, at around 3.48, shows them using a super holder / funnel, but it's slow cos they are shaking directly into the packages. If you can imagine that funnel dropping bees into the shaker box as used in the first video, that's pretty much what we used to do. The bees can then be weighed more accurately than looks like those guys in the second video could do.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Yes the guys in the first video seem to really be working fast.
Is there any concerns with handeling bees too much?
The second video shows them shaking once into packages, the first video the bees are shook into a box then shook into a container to weigh and finally dumped into package.
Do you think there is a worthwhile benifit to handeling less?
Maybe it doesnt make that much difference.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

The second video shows them "knocking" the bees into the funnel. The funnel has a shutoff valve. The package cage is sitting on a scale.


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

Beeslave said:


> The second video shows them "knocking" the bees into the funnel. The funnel has a shutoff valve. The package cage is sitting on a scale.


Just got back from Florida making about 650 packages using the "second video" method with the same crew of people. Easily made 400 the first day of shaking, including setup time and moving between two different shaking yards. Could make many more in one day especially if they are 2-lb packages (all ours were 3-lb this year).
Like slave said...bees are smoked up through an excluder into an empty super and then bounced down the funnel into a package sitting on a scale. Maybe it's not the most efficient way but it's worked great for us for decades.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Using plain old smoke? About 50 seconds into that video I see what looks like a 5 gal can of butyric acid (or barn paint). It also looks like the hives are topped with screened covers during the process?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Mbeck said:


> Do you think there is a worthwhile benifit to handeling less?


Yes, every step of the way some bees are liable to get crushed. However it's not a significant number but any simplification probably helps.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

That's a 1 gallon can. The screens allow you to see the progress of the bees moving up.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

My question about that is - will it work with just plain smoke? And is the screen cover just helpful to draw the bees up (trying to get to fresh air I guess) and see how it is progressing - or is it more like you can kill bees doing this if you don't use a screened cover. 

I will probably never do this, and if I did it would not be to sell packages, but rather something like stocking mating nucs or something like that. But it's interesting to have some idea how it works and what the dangers are.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

When I did it we only used smoke, no chemicals. I guess using a bee repellant would speed things up though.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

why use chems, or smoke? You can make a decent funnel from a tall 5 gallon bucket, cut the bottom off and pull it in and put a bolt in it. 
Most cages teh 3lb mark is right at the bottom of the crossbar. most guys sell by volume not weight, cause the bees loos weight constantly.

Pull out all the frames, put teh queen back, shake all the rest. the younger bees funnel right in. 
Don't make it hard. you can shake a hive in less than 3 minutes........


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

To avoid the time consuming (for most people) task of finding the queen in a big strong hive.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

gmcharlie,
I've never seen bees for sale by volume. I have heard people comment on the weight of the packages they bought. 
If you sell something to me as 3# I expect it to weigh 3#. 
The videos of package production all show bees being weighed


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

gmcharlie said:


> why use chems, or smoke? Pull out all the frames, put teh queen back,
> Don't make it hard.


Happy shaking.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Mbeck said:


> gmcharlie,
> I've never seen bees for sale by volume. I have heard people comment on the weight of the packages they bought.
> If you sell something to me as 3# I expect it to weigh 3#.
> The videos of package production all show bees being weighed


Might call a few of the bigger guys they now (and have for a bout 3 years) refered to them as number 3

Gardners, H&R , Hardemans, all guys I have met with or talked to this spring and say the same thing.

To many guys out there weighing packages and then kicking up a fuss abaout a swarm thats been in the box for 10 days being under 3.

Try it yourself Load a package and weigh it several days in a row..... I have done it for product testing and you will be surprised at how fast days 3-6 drop weight.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Keith, not sure if that was sarcasm or agremment? either way noted. When shakeing bees for profit. time is money. not to mention the cost associated with chems, the time alone is a waste. a good beek can strip a hive and locate the queen AND note problems in less than a few minutes. Do bees get a littly pissy? yea a bit. but just normal smoke makes it a pretty straight foward job. I have and do work with several of teh bigger boys a few days a year and have seen and participated in several methods. locate and shake is by far the fastest and easiest and most reliable method.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

gmcharlie said:


> Keith, When shakeing bees for profit. time is money. a good beek can strip a hive and locate the queen AND note problems in less than a few minutes.


GM Charlie, I can shake a pallet of bees ( 30lb) before you even find your first Queen. I just got finished shaking thousands of pounds for Randy Oliver it all took a day & a half. Get real, a two man crew can shake #1000 a day on criuse control.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Keith Jarrett said:


> GM Charlie, I can shake a pallet of bees ( 30lb) before you even find your first Queen. I just got finished shaking thousands of pounds for Randy Oliver it all took a day & a half. Get real, a two man crew can shake #1000 a day on criuse control.


Can you explain how you do this?


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Sounds like you have a method that works, Great. I don't bash it at all. 1000 Lbs being only 330 packages? The guys I work with use a 3 man crew (1 guy is feeding) and normaly shake about 300 packages a day. 70-90 days a year. Useing the queen locating system. A day for them is 6 hours start at 6 am and back for shipping by 1. Not saying your system doesn't work, Just never saw the need for Chems or shaker boxes and the like. The good parts is no need to inspect the hives at another time.

I haven't talked to Randy at all, is he weighing his as they are filling?

Didn't want to start an argument over methods. West coast guys do seem to do things quite differently than east coast!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

So one guy feeds, and the other 2 guys, in 6 hours, find 150 queens each and make packages? Remarkable.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Do you normally only shake one package per hive?


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Depends a lot on populations. Normaly around 1 per, in March we did 45 hives and had 80 pck.. but thats first shake of the season. later shakes will be less. 

Finding the queen is not that bad, you always have a cpl that take longer, but you also have those that only take a cpl seconds. your also doing a good inspection, balanceing hives (moving brood) at teh same time, and in some cases requeening. the guys usually carry extra queens in their pockets.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> 2 guys, in 6 hours, find 150 queens each and make packages? Remarkable.


I agree, Remarkable.... That's find the Queen & shake every 2.5 minuts per hive. WOW, I would love to see that video. lol


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Once I find out who they are, I am going to offer them a job working for me, so I can retire, wealthy. That's after I've doubled hive numbers and halved the labor force.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

I here you OT, but can you wait for them too make the video of this operation first. lol


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes looking forward to the video. Unfortunately I don't have any means to play you tube videos in slow motion, which means my eye might not be fast enough to follow the action. Be interesting though.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Come on guys - You don't know about Red Bull?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

David, I understand the bull part. lol


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

i need to hire these guy for a week in the summer i could have all the hives requeened in three days let me know if they are available. I will pay .50 a queen they could easy make 15$ an hour.  thanks Nick


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Deal with it as you may, One guy is stripping hives the other is shakeing and putting them back. I am sure they would entertain offers for employment. There are several of them Mike has 4 crews that do it, Steve has 2 crews (they used to work for mike) Hardemans uses a 4 man crew, but the 4 th guy works the truck and puts queens in the packages.
I can tell you this, Its hard to stay out of their way when there moving.

Maybe instead of red bull and youtube you should actually go visit some of the guys and watch......


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

And they are doing it sleeveless. Man they are machines.


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