# Mountaincamp Revisited



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

A few years ago, there was a thread here about the Mountaincamp method. I said I didn't like the method, and had a long winded discussion with MC and others. The consensus was that if it didn't do any harm then so what. I left it be.

I still don't like it. When since the last ice age...or before...have bees placed granulated sugar on top of their combs? Never of course. They place their stores in the combs...sealed away nice and convenient to the winter cluster. That winter cluster is quiet, not actively processing sucrose. I believe that active clusters consume more stores and have greater amounts of indigestables in their gut...meaning greater need for cleansing flights. 

But many beekeepers are in the south, and never worry if the bees will even need a cleansing flight in the winter. Fair enough.

I still don't like it. It seems to me that a colony of bees should be prepared before the end of the season. This means feeding what the bees need...if they need...early enough so it is stored in the combs, ripened, and capped. The original poster fed syrup until Thanksgiving. Moisture problems, eh? Of course. So, the sugar was the answer to the moisture problem. Also, some insurance against the colony running out of feed. 

Ok, I understand that. I still don't like it. But, since all say that it doesn't hurt the bees, what's the big deal?

I really couldn't answer that one, so I dropped it. Don't get me wrong, I would sugar my bees in an emergency, too.Yet it still distresses me that so many new beekeepers are so quick to take up a seemingly easy...all ya gotta do is...kind of management. Paying no mind to good basic beekeeping. I never could find anything negative about sugaring your bees...and believe me I looked...until now.

Tony Jadczak and his son Alex did a survey on Nosema. The performed spore counts on 4 apiaries, 2 in New York, and 2 in Maine. The study was in 2008 in the spring. I think the results speak for themselves. In all cases, the spore count went up significantly with sugar on the bees. Even more telling, the spore counts went up more in the sugared hives than the controls.

All colonies were positive for Nosema.

Maine hives averaged 3,790,909 spores/bee
New York hives ave. 980,250 spores/bee
Range: 50,000-28,350,000 spores/bee
NY trial: 2/14-3/13/08
ME trial: 3/6-4/8/08
184 samples

The bees were divided into 4 groups in each apiary. These 4 groups were:
1 Control: No action taken
2 Sugar Boards: Feeder boards containing slightly moistened granulated sugar so it would stick in the board. No heating like a candy board, or treatment added. Sugar was the consistency of caked granulated sugar ala the MC method.
3 Dust: Comprised of fumigillin and powdered sugar
4 FCandy: Sugar Board with fumigillin added

At the end of the trial, the bees were sampled again for nosema spores.

NY Results:
Control: -83K spores
Candy: +1.1 million spores
Dust: -1.1 million spores
FCandy: -600K spores

ME results: 
Control: +5.4 million spores
Candy: +12.8 million spores
Dust: -3.9 million spores
FCandy: -5.6 million spores

Pooled Data:
Control: +2.6 million spores
Candy: +6.7 million spores
Dust: -2.45 million spores
FCandy: -2.53 million spores 

Tony said the possible difference between spore counts in ME and NY...note the control in NY went down..is probably due to NY being a better production area than ME. Spore counts seemingly go down when nutrition is improved.

Comments?


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## mudlake (Nov 26, 2007)

Ok Dumb question If I have to feed sugar is it wise to add a pollen patty when the sugar is added. No mites in this area? Not for me. I really like the idea of small cell. I am going to pass up on small cell this year. All my new hives are going on natural ? cell this year. All the hives that I have now are on small cell, they did not build up at all and I am feeding sugar I took no honey. I requeened all my hives this year. I think honey is best also. Come on spring. 4 below 0 here tonight. Good luck Tony


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Michael,

The definition of "control" says "no action taken". 
However, do we know if the control hives were fed HFCS, sugar syrup, or any other thing before going into winter ?? Or were they expected to survive only on their own forage -- Honey reserve ?? If they were fed then "no action taken" does not have the same meaning.

In California, my bees are never fed.... nor are they dusted, powdered, or petted. They only subsist on their forage and storage.
Want to check my spore counts ?

Fuzzy


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I have read that some beeks have noticed large amounts of defecation on their sugar. Since that is how nosema is spread, makes sense that MC could spread this disease...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Fuzzy said:


> Michael,
> 
> The definition of "control" says "no action taken".
> However, do we know if the control hives were fed HFCS, sugar syrup, or any other thing before going into winter ??


I would say that all colonies in each group were treated the same the previous Fall. So, apples are compared with apples. The point is that in all cases the colonies with plain sugar boards had higher spore counts than the controls.
Mike


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

mudlake said:


> Ok Dumb question If I have to feed sugar is it wise to add a pollen patty when the sugar is added. All the hives that I have now are on small cell, they did not build up at all and I am feeding sugar I took no honey.


I couldn't tell you. I guess it would depend on your location and your Fall pollen flow. You say your colonies didn't build up. When did you discover that they weren't building up? Did you know by, say, August or September? At that point you should have been feeding 2:1 so they could have set up and provisioned their winter broodnest before the end of the season. If yo wait too long, then your options are limited.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Ok, I'm getting in trouble here: 
But I'm going to try to do this in a nice way. 

First, I agree Mike, wholeheartedly that beekeepers should *only feed dry sugar when you are really quite sure that your bees will not make it without some kind of intervention.*

And by "really quite sure" I mean that they're SUPER LIGHT and you don't have any honey to give them. 

I've done this, in fact I've got one colony that I put about 25lbs of sugar on in late October. They had swarmed late, barely managed to requeen themselves, and just didn't set up for fall. But they were a happy healthy bunch with a new queen and a decent (but small) brood pattern in October. Most beekeepers would have "taken their losses" but as I still treat my colonies like pets for the most part and since this colony in particular is on of the CCBA club hives so I didn't want to combine it with one of mine, I put the sugar on. 

As of last check 2+- weeks ago, they were sounding and looking great.

I don't use fumadyl in my operation (yet, but I do have a big bottle in the freezer in case I need it).

And I totally agree that many new beekeepers are afraid of winter kill and immediately start looking for a crutch for their bees "in case they need it" and turn to dry sugar or other feeding. 
I have a better suggestion: Leave on an extra medium of honey!
Increase your winter setup to two deeps plus one medium or 4 mediums. 

Starvation = not a problem. 

Easy, elegant, works with the bees. 

Sugar makes bees need to poop. *Unless they are certain to die without it, keep sugar out of your hives. *


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

"..a colony of bees should be prepared before the end of the season. This means feeding what the bees need...if they need...early enough so it is stored in the combs, *ripened*, and *capped*."

:thumbsup:,.....OB. That's what the "books" say! 

One fall, I had to feed the bees perhaps too late. In the spring I could shake syrup from some of the combs. I don't know if it was fermented but that didn't seem right to me; to have that in the hive over winter. Normally the amount of nectar being brought into a hive is gradually lessening during late fall and is being ripened.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> 1. Tony Jadczak and his son Alex did a survey on Nosema.
> 
> 2. All colonies were positive for Nosema.
> 
> ...


I don't use the mcc method but have some questions, should match inserted #'s above.
1. who is Tony Jadczak and his son Alex ? beeks reaserchers?
2. what were they testing for n.a. or n.c. or just in nosema in general?

3 and 4. How were they getting bee samples in N.Y. through 3/13? #4 he says possible less spores in N.Y. due to better production area, but around here any way there is no pollen comming in around 3/13? so if they are using the pollen allready in the hive why would the numbers go down?

I do think the one thing that they did show is that fumigel does work, thats why I'm interested in what they were testing for.

another thing, not related to this post, is that on Randy Olivers site, he has stated that you can test a hive one day and get a high spore count, test at a different time and get a low or zero count from the same hive? he does more testing than anyone else that posts so I have to believe what he says. if thats true how can you be certain about anything when doeing testing?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I don't use the mcc method but have some questions, should match inserted #'s above.
> 1. who is Tony Jadczak and his son Alex ? beeks reaserchers?
> 
> 2. what were they testing for n.a. or n.c. or just in nosema in general?
> ...



1. TJ is the State of Maine bee inspector. Has held the job for decades. One of the best field people I know. Has a degree from Rutgers. Alex is his son, and a very good lab person.

2. Nosema in general. In 2008, probably N. ceranae. Did you know that N. ceranae has been here since at least as far back as 1985? Tony had preserved samples that clearly show that...see...states used to de-popuilate colonies found with Tracheal mite. Tony had to take samples from operations to show TM infestation. Insurance for the State in possible lawsuits.

3. Not sure if the bees were taken from the cluster of from flying bees. I don't think it matters. What matters is that all colonies were dealt with in the same way.

4. Because there was pollen in the hive, or they were able to gather fresh pollen. The bees in each state were not compared with each other. Maine hives were compared to Maine hives. New York to New York. What you should be looking at is the change in the numbers, not the numbers themselves. It's that change...spore counts went up in colonies with sugar...even more than the control colonies.

Concerning Randy...yes, that's obviously true. Look at the numbers. 

The New York controls, as a group, went down with a second test. What about the sugar bees? The group went up. Why? Only difference was the sugar.

Look at the Maine group. The control went up 5.4 million spores, while the sugar bees went up 12.8. You don't think that significant? More than double the increase. You have to look at the trend.


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

Its an interesting OP.

I'm using MCM on many of my colonies (not all) for a couple of reasons.

1. Moisture Management (I also have open screened bottom boards)
2. Insurance

I take 2 sheets of newspaper, throw a pollen patty on and cover with sugar. I use this in conjunction with a shim for room as well as a small top entrance (above snow)

The bees don't go for the Sugar unless they run out of stores or are caught at the topmost portion of the top box with no stores in reach/they cannot move due to cold.

I suspect that MCM really begs the question of why folks use it.

Are you using it as Insurance (ie you are leaving what SHOULD be enough stores) OR are you taking robbing too much honey and leaving them with Sugar as a substitute?

I do think the correlation between bees eating sugar and increased incidence of nosema is interesting.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Feeding dry sugar in the winter is not a new invention, it was used by old timers as an emergency feeding to prevent starvation. I dont have a problem if it is used like that. On the other hand the need for such feeding is a reminder of the beekeepers failure to proper prepare the colony for winter.

What is new, and I strongly disapprove, is the practice of such feeding as fall/winter management.

Such feedings will benefit and prevent the starvation of only the colonies that need it. Everything being equal, such colonies have more problems than low reserves, actually the low reserves are just the symptoms. If all your beeyard needs such feeding, the problem is ........ the Beekeeper.

The indiscriminate use of dry sugar, often recommended on this site, is an indicator of the inability of the beekeeper to proper judge the amount of reserves needed for proper overwintering so we may have a lot of false positives that attribute the successful overwintering to the dry sugar, on the other hand reports for the waste of dry sugar (the bees throwing it out) are overlooked.


Gilman


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Well, I used the MCM this past year for the first time. 

What was I thinking as I laid on a pollen sub patty, covered it with newspaper and poured on 8-10 pounds of sugar? I was thinking: "I got to do a better job of my fall management."

I was also thinking, "If I don't do something with these extremely light hives, they're dead." I would rather do something than nothing. And they were so light they may die anyway. I'll let you know later this spring.

But for me, it was an emergency method that I hope I don't have to repeat. And I sure don't want to make it a habit.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## oldenglish (Oct 22, 2008)

Last year was my first year, here in the PNW we had an unusually dry hot summer, our nectar flow was minimal in most areas. I was feeding almost all year. Our winters are usually predictable, we get wet and cool down slowly. Not last year, we had a friday in the 50-60 range, saturday dropped to the 30's and it was dry. We then had several weeks of below freezing temps, then it started to warm up and the rain came. So far we have had very mild days many in the 50's. The bees have been flying more than usuall.

In checking my hives last fall all were extremely light, despite the feeding. As insurance I did the mountaincap on all hives. A check last weekend showed three thriving hives each having used the sugar to varying amounts. Two deadouts, neither had touched the sugar, one was empty with almost no additional stores, the other was empty with about 30lbs of capped honey.

All the hives had uncapped honey and what to me seemed a lot of it, I put this down to the speed with which we went from warm to cold. I truely believe that the sugar saved my hives from complete loss and I will use it again if needed. I saw no evidence of bees defacating on the sugar.

I do have one TBH that has never been fed (even when installed) and they also appear to be doing well.

The only treatment that my hives get is powdered sugar for varroa.


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## oldenglish (Oct 22, 2008)

bleta12 said:


> Such feedings will benefit and prevent the starvation of only the colonies that need it. Everything being equal, such colonies have more problems than low reserves, actually the low reserves are just the symptoms. If all your beeyard needs such feeding, the problem is ........ the Beekeeper.
> 
> 
> Gilman


I dont think the beekeeper can be held responsible for the weather conditions that affect flows, last year our summer pretty much destroyed any hope of a good season, in the UK almost constant rain had a similar affect, both are outside the efforts of even the best beekeeper to control.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Tony Jadczak and his son Alex did a survey on Nosema. The performed spore counts on 4 apiaries, 2 in New York, and 2 in Maine. The study was in 2008 in the spring.
> 
> Comments?


They did? How come I am hearing about this for the first time now? Did NYS Ag&Mkts know about this? Whose hives were checked? What was the method of sampling?

Just curious. And i'm somewhat surprised.


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## kopeck (May 26, 2007)

For what it's worth, and my sample size is very small, the MCM has been mixed for me.

The first time I tried it a lost the colony I tried it on to nosema. The issue here though is the colony was in trouble before the sugar went on. Would they have done better with out it? I doubt it, they were going to fail.

I used it a bit last year and basically wasted sugar, on colonies that are in decent shape it just didn't matter. (This is the "crutch" MP talked about. I knew the stores were good, I did it "just in case").

This year I only used MCM on a late swarm I had. Single deep, small cluster, it may work it may not. It was worth a roll of the dice.

I think Michale is right, a lot of new bee keeps over think winter management. If you're setup well with normal stores then you should be all set.

Oh and Tony is great. He's helped me out a few times, every state would be luck to have a guy like him.

K


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

kopeck said:


> I think Michale is right, a lot of new bee keeps over think winter management. If you're setup well with normal stores then you should be all set.


I think kopeck raises an interesting idea, namely that the MCM is put on hives in decline, that were, perhaps but not necessarily, destined to die anyway. I don't know I'd place too much emphasis on dry sugar and Nosema, pe se. They may have been in decline with Nosema prior to the MCM.

And I sure hope we don't start thinking the MCM is standard winter management. In my mind, winter management happens in September, and by November you're set until March.

Hopefully...

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

:scratch: this thread is causing me to rethink the MCM. As I recall, it was originally presented as an emergency method to prevent death by starvation. A substantial benefit/by product was moisture control in the hive. So I wonder how many beeks did the mcm not only as "insurance" but also as moisture control? Personally I do my best to leave enough honey on, but sometimes the weather doesn't cooperate, or the bees use too much and I have to feed. Right now 1/3 of my hives are still setting pretty doggone good with honey reserves. I mcm'ed all, but I guarantee, I'll do it differently next year. They come out of winter much stronger on honey left on in the fall for me.

Related to spore counts, once the bees starting flying and voiding, do those spore counts decrease? Or are the bees doomed unless medically treated? 
Thanks!
Steven


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

oldenglish said:


> Last year was my first year, here in the PNW we had an unusually dry hot summer, our nectar flow was minimal in most areas. I was feeding almost all year.
> 
> In checking my hives last fall all were extremely light, despite the feeding.


It really depends on how much you feed, when, and how fast.

If you're keeping a feeder on the colony, and they're taking a little syrup down all the time, they will raise brood from it, and not store it away. If you feed a lot of syrup to a colony, in a short time, they'll store it.

I wait until I see what the Fall flow is going to do. In my area, I know by the middle of September what the bees will need for winter. I weigh my hives, so I can tell right on. I feed at that time all they need...ie if they need 4 gallons of feed I feed them 4 gallons. I don't give them a gallon this week and a gallon next week and another when I get around to it. All at once. Over time and with a little practice the weighing/feeding management scheme is very accurate and works well.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

oldenglish said:


> I dont think the beekeeper can be held responsible for the weather conditions that affect flows,


I agree. Nor can the bees be held responsible. Thing is, you need to make a decision at the proper time. Is the flow weak. Do they have enough stores for winter. Is there a good chance they will make what they need? 

Ask youself those questions in September, and do what has to be done.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> They did? How come I am hearing about this for the first time now?
> Did NYS Ag&Mkts know about this? Whose hives were checked? What was the method of sampling?
> 
> Just curious. And i'm somewhat surprised.


I just heard about it too. It's a private study, not funded by anyone. Just Tony being Tony. Can't remember the name in NY...I would if my memory was refreshed. 1000 colony operation. Sells nucs. Pollinates in ME. Might sell supplies. I believe he winters in NY. I believe the Me beekeeper was Batchelder.

Not sure of the sampling method. I assume the same in all cases.
Mike


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Grant said:


> In my mind, winter management happens in September, and by November you're set until March.


Amen, Grant


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

StevenG;498829
Related to spore counts said:


> Well, from the NY data, I would say they're not doomed. Notice that the spore count in the control went down to less than 1 million spores...the so called treatment threshold.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

If the Mountaincamp method creates a nosema problem where none existed or enhances an existing one how long before it is evident?


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## NewBee2007 (May 6, 2007)

For the last 2 years, in my area of NY, the weather was awful. 
Very wet/rainy and the bees got stuck in their hives consuming stores rather than foraging and producing honey. 
The year before last, we were lucky to get enough decent weather in the Fall and the 3 hives I had started were able to go out to collect pollen and nectar and get it stored and capped. I felt very happy, that 2 of the 3 hives that year made it through, with one making it through due to MC method. 

This year, stupidly in hind site, I attempted to increase the number of hives. 
Unfortunately, the weather did not cooperate with my best intentions. 
I had started 4 packages from scratch this year, but I tried to make sure that all 4 had some drawn comb from the one hive that did not make it through the prior winter (apparently due to starvation, on top of the fact that this one hive swarmed late in the Fall.) 

I was feeding my bees last season, but they were preferring to swarm, rather than to to draw out new comb and pack away nectar. So needless to say, I have had to put dry sugar on the 6 hives that I still have alive (although 2 may have enough honey stores to make it into spring, but at this point I need the insurance and have put some dry sugar on all of them.) 

My question is, did anyone else experience this too? 

And also, how does one persuade bees to draw out comb when feeding sugar syrup rather than swarming? It wasn't like it was just a single hive that was doing this. It was a few of them.

I agree, the best thing for the bees is for them to go into the Winter with enough stores, but this year, it was extremely hard to do, especially if you were unfortunate to not to have drawn comb available. Unfortunately, we all are at different stages, and for me, it was just a terrible year, even when we were feeding them. ps--I have been at this for the past 3 years and still have not gotten any honey to harvest. I have never taken any honey yet from the bees, and still they have been short on stores even with trying to feed them ahead of time, and yet they have still needed supplemental feeding from my limited experience the past 3 years.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

>>(although 2 may have enough honey stores to make it into spring, but at this point I need the insurance and have put some dry sugar on all of them.)

this is exactly the point that Mike is trying to make. Dry sugar is not "insurance" as it can certainly cause at least as many problems as it may solve. If you think your bees have a fighting chance without sugar, don't add it. If you are lucky and you've planned well, maybe you have a frame or two of honey you can add in March in emergency if needed. That is insurance! But to a colony that needs only that little bit of help, a little feed at the end of the winter, having sugar on all winter can be a death sentence due to the need to void the indigestibles. As far as moisture absorption goes, use a homasote or other moisture absorbant board or material. 

2 cents from Maine, 

Ps: I agree with all - Tony is fantastic. 
And he's on deck for my Intermediate Bee School this week - the students have no idea how totally lucky we are. Up here he's old news. HA!


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## kopeck (May 26, 2007)

Grant said:


> And I sure hope we don't start thinking the MCM is standard winter management. In my mind, winter management happens in September, and by November you're set until March.



Bingo. It's hard for folks, especially new bee keepers, to just let bees do they're thing once winter sets in. Sure you can help them out in the fall build up stores but really once winter arrives you really have to just hope for the best.

I think the MCM is a good solution when you have your hands tied and there's a pretty good chance your colony simply is going to make it. For normal management though you really shouldn't need it.

K


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## greengecko (Dec 16, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> Tony Jadczak and his son Alex did a survey on Nosema. The performed spore counts on 4 apiaries, 2 in New York, and 2 in Maine. The study was in 2008 in the spring. I think the results speak for themselves. In all cases, the spore count went up significantly with sugar on the bees. Even more telling, the spore counts went up more in the sugared hives than the controls.


Very interesting, has this research been published for peer review? If so, where?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I wonder if the same problems would apply to candy boards? When the sugar is boiled it is changed and supposedly made more digestible.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Barry Digman said:


> If the Mountaincamp method creates a nosema problem where none existed or enhances an existing one how long before it is evident?


NY trial: 2/14-3/13/08
ME trial: 3/6-4/8/08

Looking at the survey time period, I would say within 30 days.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

NewBee2007 said:


> My question is, did anyone else experience this too?
> 
> And also, how does one persuade bees to draw out comb when feeding sugar syrup rather than swarming? It wasn't like it was just a single hive that was doing this. It was a few of them.


You bet. One of the worst years I've ever seen., although not as bad as 1986 when I made 2.5T from 800+ colonies. In September of 2009, I fed out 30,000+ pounds of 2:1. Think of it. That on less than a half a honey crop. 

I saw the same thing. For instance...

I decided to winter some % of my early made nucs (early July) in double 4 frame nuc boxes with a 4 frame supers on top. The thought being rather than expand these early nucs onto 8 combs horizontally, I expanded them up. Bees like up better than out. Once the 200-4 frame nucs were strong, I added the 4 frame supers above with foundation. They started working on the foundation, and then the flow ended. Only the strongest drew out the foundation. Some sat in the bottom chamber, and started cells. 

I found that moving two combs of brood up into the super and two frames of foundation down into the bottom box really helped. I replaced any frames of foundation not drawn by the end of August with drawn comb. That gave the bees a place to store the syrup I fed. I wound up feeding 3 gallons to most of those nucs...a lot for nucs. 

Time will tell if I read things correctly.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

greengecko said:


> Very interesting, has this research been published for peer review? If so, where?


I don't think so. Tony showed the survey in a Power Point presentation at the Vermont Beekeepers winter meeting.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

camero7 said:


> I wonder if the same problems would apply to candy boards? When the sugar is boiled it is changed and supposedly made more digestible.


I wonder the same thing. Time for another survey.


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## greengecko (Dec 16, 2008)

greengecko said:


> Very interesting, has this research been published for peer review? If so, where?





Michael Palmer said:


> I don't think so. Tony showed the survey in a Power Point presentation at the Vermont Beekeepers winter meeting.


It should be. This is not necessarily a reflection on those concerned, but research that has not undergone independent peer review is likely to be regarded with suspicion. A conflict of interest can arise when a reviewer and author have a disproportionate amount of respect (or disrespect) for each other.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> Can't remember the name in NY...I would if my memory was refreshed.


Mark, I think the NY beekeeper was Chad Draper.
Mike


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

camero7 said:


> I wonder if the same problems would apply to candy boards? When the sugar is boiled it is changed and supposedly made more digestible.


Cream of tarter has been used for many years when making candy boards and we know by adding it to the candy it's going to give the bees some digestive problems. But, we still use it.

Ernie


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## larrythebeek (Dec 29, 2009)

I thought it was interesting to see a 'Mountain Camp Rim' for sale in the new Walter T Kelley catalog, page 67... I assumed the 'mountaincamp' method was something that was only discussed here, but it seems that a lot of people use it.


Larry


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## vajerzy (Feb 5, 2008)

Interesting discussion! 

My philosphy is is leave as much honey as I can for the winter, and use the Mountaincamp as a last resort, and not as common practice. If any die out, then I can extract in the spring, or use it to start up new hives. I don't feed- I figure the bees know better than me what's right for them. I'm into beekeeping for increasing hives, making nucs, raising queens and honey is a nice reward to give to friends/family/ and sell a few bottles.

I did use feeding, including Mountain Camp as common practice in past years- no more. I've lost more hives than lived these past few years (I'm in my 3rd winter of beekeeping). Now I leave most everything for the bees going into winter, taking only enough honey for gifts and to sell a little- about 2 gallons. If hives die- I'll take those honey frames and bolster the other hives instead of Mountain Camp, if I can. I'm wintering 6- 10 frame, 1-5 frame and 2-4 frame (in a queen castle)- so I'm hoping this will work- leaving most of the honey on the hives. All were alive as of last week.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Mark, I think the NY beekeeper was Chad Draper.
> Mike


I'm not sure that I know him. Unless he is from White Creek, NY and used to work for Bob Stevens.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

camero7 said:


> I wonder if the same problems would apply to candy boards? When the sugar is boiled it is changed and supposedly made more digestible.


I have the same question for candy boards and/or fondant. I do not really understand how the chemistry of the sugar changes when heated or why that is/or is not better/easier for the bees to digest in winter. Sounds like noone on here has a good answer yet for if candy boards are any better than dry sugar.

I am with Erin, and the extra medium super of honey as your insurance. Some of us already do this as standard practice. I tried it this year on one hive and will probably convert more of my hives to two deep and one medium set ups.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

I need to read more carefully!

Interesting study!


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

BEES4U said:


> Cream of tarter has been used for many years when making candy boards and we know by adding it to the candy it's going to give the bees some digestive problems. But, we still use it.
> 
> Ernie


Most new recipes don't call for it. And my understanding that the sugar inverts without it fine.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

winevines said:


> I am with Erin, and the extra medium super of honey as your insurance. Some of us already do this as standard practice. I tried it this year on one hive and will probably convert more of my hives to two deep and one medium set ups.


As you already know, my bees have been in that configuration for most, if not all of my career. 

The medium super isn't necessarily on top. It can be located anywhere in the stack...even in the middle. That's a nice configuration if you practice spring splitting. Strong colonies will have brood in that super and it makes an excellent little split.

I read long ago that the extra super of honey left on the colony is turned into spring bees. After so many years wintering bees, I have to agree. At least in my case, overweight colonies with nice clusters coming out of winter will have used almost all the honey and have great populations by Dandelion bloom.

I also keep that extra super on for swarm control. In my area, 2 hive bodies aren't enough in my management. It gives me a little more time...it takes the swarming pressure of the bees having a bit more room. 

I believe that early spring swarm preparations...before apple bloom...are caused by a strong colony in a cavity...hive...that's too small for their requirements. I see many colonies in the spring that have 9, 10, and 12 frames of brood at Dandelion bloom. One poster here on BS uses the configuration shallow-deep-shallow and has swarm preparations before apple bloom. From his figures, he says the bottom shallow is pollen and the top shallow is honey. The deep has a comb of honey on the sidewalls and a frame of pollen next to them...leaving only 6 frames of brood. I imaging that all our bees are similar. Pollen and honey always take up considerable space in a broodnest. And the strong colonies start swarm preps before apple. I would expect so...at least here where I keep bees and with my stock. How will they ever reach their potential when restricted for space. 

Just one example I can put my finger on, and not trying to criticize anyone.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> As you already know, my bees have been in that configuration for most, if not all of my career.


Well you know the one I tried with the extra super is Miss Vermont............

Thanks for the post. I was waffling on this, but getting more convinced this approach makes sense for us down here as well.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Woo Hoo!!!!
Again! Communication. 
gotta love the internet. 
For all its faults and spread of BS, I see here a connection that would likely never have been made otherwise. 

xo to both Karla and Mike! Mike, I thought I remembered that you were in 2 plus medium or 3 deeps depending on situation. 
Great teaching and learning here!

Wish me luck for Wednesday night intermediate school with Tony, who thinks his cell phone is a "new fangled gadget.;" and is fussy about my bee school.
(deep breath)
If he werent one of the best beekeepers in the country I'd get crosss about his attitude a little more but as it is, I warn the newbies and tell them "in the end you two will be the best of buddies"

So glad the teachine/learning juices are flowing...
Best, 
-E.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

winevines said:


> Well you know the one I tried with the extra super is Miss Vermont............


For those who don't know...Miss Vermont was a beautiful queen that I sent Karla. 
Mike


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Maine_Beekeeper said:


> Wish me luck for Wednesday night intermediate school with Tony, who thinks his cell phone is a "new fangled gadget.;" and is fussy about my bee school.
> (deep breath)


Good luck. 
Mike


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## NewBee2007 (May 6, 2007)

Maine_Beekeeper said:


> >>(although 2 may have enough honey stores to make it into spring, but at this point I need the insurance and have put some dry sugar on all of them.)
> 
> this is exactly the point that Mike is trying to make. Dry sugar is not "insurance" as it can certainly cause at least as many problems as it may solve. If you think your bees have a fighting chance without sugar, don't add it. If you are lucky and you've planned well, maybe you have a frame or two of honey you can add in March in emergency if needed. That is insurance! But to a colony that needs only that little bit of help, a little feed at the end of the winter, having sugar on all winter can be a death sentence due to the need to void the indigestibles. As far as moisture absorption goes, use a homasote or other moisture absorbant board or material.
> 
> ...


Ok, maybe I am not seeing something here, but I'm not understanding how placing dried sugar on the top super will cause any harm for the bees. If they have enough stores, they will not get to that super and use it, but if they run short, it will be there for an emergency. 

Also, as I mentioned, I have yet to take any honey from the hives for myself. I have left it for the bees and this has been the case all 3 years. So I am not robbing them of their honey stores; and this year they just weren't able to store enough with the exception of possibly 2 hives that will be close imo.

And what can one do if the bees refused to draw comb, even when fed sugar syrup in the summer and into the fall?

They either would swarm or else supercede...and this went on all summer and into the fall.

I actually lost the queen I bought from Mike due to a late swarm a few weeks after I put her into the hive last year. 

I currently have no other choice than to feed dry sugar to 2/3 of my hives (liquids remain frozen up here in the hills of NY, so they would not be able to take it in that form in a hive top feeder.) Plus I don't exactly understand the cause and effect of feeding dry sugar with increased nosema, other than the other side of the coin, where feeding syrup in general may result in less nosema, possibly it is washing it out of their digestive system. Both make some sense, but more research is needed before we can be sure that feeding dry sugar in the winter actually is causing nosema to worsen imo.


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## kbee (Mar 6, 2005)

I'm also having a little trouble understanding. Most of you feed sugar syrup but dry sugar causes problems? It would seem the syrup could have more potential for contamination due to the higher moisture(lower concentration). Not all hives use the sugar. I don't think mine died because they used the sugar. Most survived wether they used it or not. How many hives were used in the study? I saw sample size but that may not be the number of hives studied.


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## NewBee2007 (May 6, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> I found that moving two combs of brood up into the super and two frames of foundation down into the bottom box really helped. I replaced any frames of foundation not drawn by the end of August with drawn comb. That gave the bees a place to store the syrup I fed. I wound up feeding 3 gallons to most of those nucs...a lot for nucs.


But I do not have the drawn comb to put in my hives. That was part of the problem


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

NewBee2007 said:


> Ok, maybe I am not seeing something here, but I'm not understanding how placing dried sugar on the top super will cause any harm for the bees. If they have enough stores, they will not get to that super and use it, but if they run short, it will be there for an emergency.
> 
> Plus I don't exactly understand the cause and effect of feeding dry sugar with increased nosema, other than the other side of the coin, where feeding syrup in general may result in less nosema, possibly it is washing it out of their digestive system. Both make some sense, but more research is needed before we can be sure that feeding dry sugar in the winter actually is causing nosema to worsen imo.


my guess and strickly a guess is the nosema is passed between bees while feeding on the sugar. When I have hives with nosema and feed sugar water, if they are badly infected they don't take the sugar water. the nosema levels of the bees in the study are below(if I remember correctly) what randy oliver says is the economic threshold ( 5 million spores per bee), so they would feed on the sugar. From what I have read they speculate that the spores are passed in the pollen in the hive, so It wouldn't bee a great leap to pass it on the sugar.

If your hive needs feed and will die without it, no doubt in my mind go for it, what do you have to lose, and do you have nosema in your hive to start with? and I didn't see anything about the hives that nosema went up dying?
I also didn't see anything that said the ones that had the sugar on, actually ate the sugar? I did see that the hives feed fumidl had lower levels. but since I don't feed dry sugar I was looking for any info. that would apply to me specificly.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> The bees were divided into 4 groups in each apiary.
> 
> 3 Dust: Comprised of fumigillin and powdered sugar
> 4 FCandy: Sugar Board with fumigillin added
> ...


any chance someone could get the specifics of how much fumidil per hive was mixed with each of the above? and how they made the candy with fumidil without going over the heat range that kills fumidil??

erin how about asking him at your class and post?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

NewBee2007 said:


> Ok, maybe I am not seeing something here, but I'm not understanding how placing dried sugar on the top super will cause any harm for the bees.
> 
> And what can one do if the bees refused to draw comb, even when fed sugar syrup in the summer and into the fall?
> 
> ...


I don't understand either. I'm only trying to interpret the study. Perhaps it's the fact that the sugar is there...and the bees are working on it when they should be quiet. Increased activity will increase the amount of solids in the bee gut. Rather than flying out on a cleansing flight..too cold for that...they are defecating in the hive and eating each others poop? Only a guess.

As I said, I had a similar situation here this past winter. I started with medium nucs split off mating nucs. This was done in mid-May. I added a deep of foundation..which sat there. When a small flow did happen, I did see some swarming..although no a lot. I wound up feeding those colonies 5 gallons of 2:1 which they used to draw enough of the foundation to raise brood and store winter feed. Probably has to do with the volume of feed and how fast it is fed out.

I understand that your bees were in trouble. Obviously you can't feed syrup in the winter, and at that point granulated sugar or candy boards are appropriate. I wonder. When you said you fed them, how much and how fast? In hive top feeders did you say? I find feeder cans directly on the top bars work better in some circumstances.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

kbee said:


> I'm also having a little trouble understanding. Most of you feed sugar syrup but dry sugar causes problems? It would seem the syrup could have more potential for contamination due to the higher moisture(lower concentration). Not all hives use the sugar. I don't think mine died because they used the sugar. Most survived wether they used it or not. How many hives were used in the study? I saw sample size but that may not be the number of hives studied.


Sugar syrup is fed when the bees can fly. Excess moisture and solids can be voided. Sugar is fed when the bees are confined. No cleansing flights. Could that be why?

There were 4 apiaries in the study. Total of 184 samples. I'm assuming that the figure means there were 184 colonies sampled. If you divide 184 by 4 you get 46 colonies per yard. Large yards for the Northeast.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wildbranch2007 said:


> my guess and strickly a guess is the nosema is passed between bees while feeding on the sugar.
> 
> the nosema levels of the bees in the study are below(if I remember correctly) what randy oliver says is the economic threshold ( 5 million spores per bee),
> 
> If your hive needs feed and will die without it, no doubt in my mind go for it,


As I said in another post, I think the same thing. The bees are passing the spores between bees. 

Well, as far as Randy's threshold...the sugared bees in Maine had spore counts go up 12.8 million spores/bee, while the pooled results went up 6.7 million spores/bee. Both levels being above the threshold.

I would say go for it too. My objection is using sugar as a standard management tool. If you have to use sugar every year, to save your bees from starvation, then you need to change your management. Does that make sense to all?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wildbranch2007 said:


> any chance someone could get the specifics of how much fumidil per hive was mixed with each of the above? and how they made the candy with fumidil without going over the heat range that kills fumidil??


Protocol: 4 treatments per apiary.

1 Control
2 Sugar board (not a candy board)
3 Sugar board with 126 mg fumagillin
4 Fumagillin dust-4 weekly applications of 31.5mg/hive

Sugar boards...as the study says, not candy boards. Candy boards are made by heating a sugar solution to hardball, and pouring it hot into a rim.

Sugar boards are made by dumping granulated sugar into a clean (new) cement mixer and spritzing it with water. When enough water has been added, the sugar is poured into a rim where it cakes. No heating of the sugar. I believe this imitates well the use of granulated sugar above the cluster.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> Does that make sense to all?


Yes it does!
Except for some of us that attempt over wintering boderline bee clusters.
I would suggest feeding Fumagillin in the fall as an added management tool.
Ernie


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> Protocol: 4 treatments per apiar
> 
> I believe this imitates well the use of granulated sugar above the cluster.


Well, that sure simplifies the feeding of granulated sugar!
Ernie


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

camero7 said:


> Most new recipes don't call for it. And my understanding that the sugar inverts without it fine.


If you do some home canning of for example strawberry jam you will find out that the heating and acids in the canning process will invert the syrup.
Ernie


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Fuzzy said:


> Michael,
> 
> In California, my bees are never fed.... nor are they dusted, powdered, or petted. They only subsist on their forage and storage.
> Want to check my spore counts ?
> ...


Fuzzy,
How are your bees doing with this being a stressful wet winter?

Ernie


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

kbee said:


> I'm also having a little trouble understanding. Most of you feed sugar syrup but dry sugar causes problems? It would seem the syrup could have more potential for contamination due to the higher moisture(lower concentration).


I'm thinking it's more about the time of year than the product used. I think either granulated sugar or sugar syrup fed when the bees are in winter cluster would have similar results. 

Have you seen a tight winter cluster. I looked at some today. It's about 20 here today. The clusters are tight, compact, and quiet. Only a slight hum can be heard from them. They aren't active. They haven't broken cluster. They aren't actively working on anything. 

Look at bees taking syrup, or working on the granulated sugar that has melted some with condensation moisture. Are they tight compact and quiet. I doubt it. They're actively processing sucrose syrup, when they can take a cleansing flight. With this activity, solids build up in the gut that must be voided. How much is passed around between the bees within the cluster. If any poop, the others will clean it up, spreading Nosema.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

How many flying days did you have there this winter Mike. Here in CT we had less than normal, the temps were constantly low. We had a day of 50,s but it was raining.

Gilman


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Looks like there was one brief flight. Too bad I was in Florida...home of the newly wed and the nearly dead. Got warm enough last week, but it was pouring rain and 60 mph winds. Blew a tree over on my garage. Smash! 

Hoping to get some bee poop on me soon. I need my fix. Come on February thaw!

If you go where the honeybees go, better eat some yellow snow.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Ha ha ... beekeepers and their bad jokes!
Gotta love it. 

I just had Tony Jadczak with my Intermediate beekeepers tonight - 
he's pretty down on the sugar and has lots of good reasons why. 

Apparently down in New Jersey (where he's from) his grandpappy and uncle used to winter under sugar regularly - and that worked fine. But those bees were bringing in early pollen in February, he says. Plenty of pooping time. 

Up here, just not enough cleansing flights.


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

Well, welcome to the balmy south, ya'all. Us ladies here don't like venturing out of the house on a day that's less than 50 (degrees, darlin) - even to take care our toilet matters (excuse my foul mouth), which we've only had 2 in the last 2 weeks.

We need our air during the summertime, or our pettycoats crease right badly, and heaven knows we don't want to glissen - especially in front of a suitor.

Like some others on this thread, when I laid down dry sugar above the girls - since the were honey-domed already, I was wondering if I was doing the right thing, but was also concerned as much about condensation/hive thermodynamics as anything else, because of our (yes, believe it,) freezing temps and high humidity.

I felt that they had enough stores to get them thru our 'short' winter (December thru late Feb), but believed I needed something to take care of the moisture (with the sugar being an added plus).

I have dead bees all over the top of the sugar, some yellow staining, very little, if any eaten and when it is warm enough, they're up there building slalom, mogul and luge courses.

I have been in the building industry for (ever) and have never heard of 'homasote' (must be a yankee product), so I looked it up. It is supposed to be a great insulator, but from what I can tell by the blurb, relatively impervious to moisture (as far as a recycled compressed cellulose can be). So I ask myself and the rest of you how this is supposed to work to absorb moisture?

I read the thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199301

as well as:

THE THERMOLOGY OF WINTERING HONEY BEE COLONIES

By CHARLES D. OWENS, Agricultural Engineering Research Division,
Agricultural Research Service

And have come to the general conclusion that a well-vented hive serves generally well for both summer and winter, with maybe only some minor modifications - the bees know what to do.

As far as stores are concerned, the overwhelming concensus is (like the ant & grasshopper story), prepare for winter before it arrives.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Hoodswoods - 
I like the way you talk. 
2 whole weeks between flying days. That stinks. 
Good news is, spring is on they way!

Best to you and your bees, 
-E.


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

Maine_Beekeeper said:


> Hoodswoods -
> I like the way you talk.
> 2 whole weeks between flying days. That stinks.
> Good news is, spring is on they way!
> ...


Spring might be on the way, but so is death and taxes...

I guess that it stinks for the bees - I've never gotten that close to form a personal opinion.


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

And yet I have devdog, who lives 30 miles from me and his bees are chomping on dry sugar like a bulldog fan on barbeque.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> Come on February thaw!


Our Feb. thaw is on its way any day now- another 1-3 feet predicted this weekend, and maybe more on Tuesday. Go figure. Have not seen snow like this down here in an age. Will be an interesting year for the apiaries... I guess we now have a real opportunity to let winter cull out the weak ones down here. Makes for some nice photo ops as well. 

We have had regular intervals of weather permitting cleansing flight weather, at least once a month or more. That may be a real difference in terms of the prevalence of nosema. Maybe not. Would be a really great study for someone and could potentially benefit lots of us. I am amazed at how many sources cite putting hard sugar on hives... even MAAREC publication, which is geared for mid Atlantic states, so maybe this cleansing flight opportunity during winter is something that makes a difference when considering this method.


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## greengecko (Dec 16, 2008)

Maine_Beekeeper said:


> I just had Tony Jadczak with my Intermediate beekeepers tonight -
> he's pretty down on the sugar and has lots of good reasons why.


Unfortunately until his research is fully documented and undergone independent peer review it will continue to be viewed with appropriate uncertainty.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> Too bad I was in Florida...home of the newly wed and the nearly dead.


:lpf: Now I'm gonna use that line!


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

>>I am amazed at how many sources cite putting hard sugar on hives... even MAAREC publication, which is geared for mid Atlantic states, so maybe this cleansing flight opportunity during winter is something that makes a difference when considering this method.

Yes, I agree, it is the bees' ability to poop that makes all the difference. 
UP here, my bees haven't flown since early January and likely they wont until next month. 
maybe we'll get lucky and have one flying day in February. 
Last year we had no flying days from January 6 to March 28. And I'm in Southern Maine! can you tell that I'm still bitter? Please let me know who to complain to and I'll send them a nasty note. 

RE: greengecko>> Maine_Beekeeper: 
I just had Tony Jadczak with my Intermediate beekeepers tonight - 
he's pretty down on the sugar and has lots of good reasons why. Unfortunately until his research is fully documented and undergone independent peer review it will continue to be viewed with appropriate uncertainty.<<

As far as Tony Jadczak is concerned, I doubt you'll be seeing any peer reviewed articles from him. He is "in the field" - busy making sure the 70,000 or so hives that come into Maine are in shape and not transmitting diesase amongst themselves and others (and in his infinite spare time dealing with the 700+ sideline/hobby beekeepers of Maine. He literally probably actually inspects / personally looks at as many or more bee colonies in any given year than any other person in the US. (Mike, correct me if I am wrong about this?) Tony is they guy who tells the researchers "hey - maybe you should look at this..."

-E.


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## greengecko (Dec 16, 2008)

Maine_Beekeeper said:


> As far as Tony Jadczak is concerned, I doubt you'll be seeing any peer reviewed articles from him...
> 
> ...Tony is they guy who tells the researchers "hey - maybe you should look at this..."


Perhaps now that he has raised a flag the observation will be systematically investigated and tested.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Maine_Beekeeper;500653 (Mike said:


> That's the truth. If I had a gabillion dollars to run a breeding program, and could afford all the best beekeeping minds on the planet, Tony would be one of my first choices.


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## greengecko (Dec 16, 2008)

:thumbsup: A few days ago I opened a hive provided with an emergency supply of ultrafine dry sugar (baker's sugar) last October. The bees survived the winter in very good condition. No sign of Nosema. Approximately 80% of the dry sugar was consumed.

This hive was a later package. Going into winter their stores were extremely light. The hive was feed a few gallons of 2:1 sugar syrup in late September into early October. When the daily highs begin to drop below flying temperatures 4 lbs of baker's sugar was placed upon newspaper within a shallow feeding shim as an emergency precaution.


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## Trithemius (Dec 29, 2008)

Anyone have updated information on the winter feeding of dry sugar (aka Mountain Camp Method) causing increased nosema spore counts?


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I fooled around last fall in 2009 trying to convince the weather to reduce the temperatures so I could get my MiteAway-II pads on. Very warm fall. Then I took a long trip.

Needless to say, my bees were hungry and hurting upon my return. I picked up the MC method and come March, my bees were alive and well. I would easily guess they would have perished without this emergency method. Emphasis on "emergency."

This year, I'm feeding earlier.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

I don't like to put anything that is on top and covers the cluster. I fed early enough last winter for the bees to ripen the syrup and cap it, but I thought that I might try the dry sugar on top of newspaper, with a gap all the way around, on 5 or 6 hives, what could it hurt. The ones that took the sugar, I thought, died and most of the sugar and dead bees were on the screened bottom board. Not all of the bees that died took the sugar but it didn't work for me. This year I have fed plenty of 2-1 early enough and have increased my top ventilation to all hives. Last year was a bad winter for us cool and wet late. By the way, the bees that died had at least a deep of honey on them when they died. I believe that it was a moisture problem that killed the bees. They got wet, got stuck and starved to death. I also believe that anything that restricts the moisture from flowing upward and out of the top ventilation is not good for the bees. This is just my opinion, but I believe that if you live in a moist climate in winter, as I do, it is better to feed your bees the old fashion way with 2-1. Maybe in dry climate areas it might work great, but it didn't work for me, I lost 4 out of 6 hives that I put the sugar on. I have never lost that kind of percentage with 2-1. The hives that I didn't sugar, I lost about 1 in ten or 10%.


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## NewBee2007 (May 6, 2007)

Well... this year I tried not feeding dry sugar... used fondant instead.... guess what... same issues... seeing lots of nosema and subsequent dwindling and death...even before giving them the fondant (which was pretty much untouched....) so I am finding it hard to believe that the dry sugar and fondant are the cause of the nosema issues... I think it is the fact that the winters have been much colder the last few years with few breaks for the bees to get out for cleansing flights...causing them to defecate inside the hive and then it spreads through the hive.... I have another hive that almost died out last year, just the queen and a handful of bees were left... supplemented with a frame of brood and lots of nurse bees and then another frame of bees shook in... and that hive is healthy so far this winter... and chomping away on the fondant and no sign of nosema.... So... until there is a study showing that the dry sugar or fondant is causing the nosema issues.... I will be a bit of a disbeliever... I do think the issue is the fact that they are not able to get out for cleansing flights, and therefore releasing their wastes in the hive which then gets spread throughout the hive....and causing the death of the hive.... but I guess we'll have to wait for a study to learn what exactly might be the source of the problem...all I know is that none of my hives have produced surplus honey yet.... and I haven't stole any from them.... in 5 years....


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