# R U ready to get mad?



## peletier (May 5, 2007)

You let this information slip while you are selling honey at the farmer's market? :doh: SMMOOOOTH! Personally, I don't put ANYTHING in my hives but bees. Our honey is as pure as the air we breathe and the water we drink.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

No offense Matt, but it appears that you don't know too much about honey production.

One, I don't know of one commercial beek that threats their hives with honey supers on.

Second you statement "When I let it slip once or twice that most keepers poison their hives" is absolutely false. Since when is treating any type of livestock and yes bees are considered livestock "poisoning them? Do you poison your child when you give them an antibiotic? Do you poison them when getting them vaccinated? 

Third, when you buy a pound of beef does it list all the antibiotics, vaccinations, growth hormones, and the feed they were fed, to include what pesticides and and other chemicals were used on those crops? No it doesn't.

I suggest you stick with telling people what is in your own hives and not tainting the beekeeping industry with sensational half truths and assumptions. :no:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

mendocino queen honey said:


> Do we, as beekeepers have any responsibility to inform the public about possible toxic exposure from what has been marketed as pure and natural- for decades?


There is a mindset with some that it doesn't really matter what goes into the hive in way of treatments and drugs as long as the honey stays "pure." Some claim to test their honey and the USDA standards they go by are the same ones that keep being readjusted up to allow more parts in honey.

I know it's a touchy issue, but for me personally, I let my customers know that I do not put anything into my hives that the bees do not bring in themselves. No, I don't open feed either. I will not claim that my honey is more pure than . . .


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## J-Bees (Jul 12, 2008)

peletier said:


> Our honey is as pure as the air we breathe and the water we drink.


I get it:}:}


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

alpha6 said:


> I suggest you stick with telling people what is in your own hives and not tainting the beekeeping industry with sensational half truths and assumptions.


The truth is, some chemicals used by beekeepers ARE toxic to bees. Surely you're aware the effect coumaphos is having on bees and comb, especially queens? There is no debate about this. The only area of debate is purity of honey, and everyone would have to have their honey tested to know how pure their honey really is.


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## MichelinMan (Feb 18, 2008)

I second Alpha`s response.


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## J-Bees (Jul 12, 2008)

Barry said:


> The truth is, some chemicals used by beekeepers ARE toxic to bees. Surely you're aware the effect coumaphos is having on bees and comb, especially queens? There is no debate about this. The only area of debate is purity of honey, and everyone would have to have their honey tested to know how pure their honey really is.



Barry,

My honey God bless her is sure pure. Just thinking of all the CRAP she has to do to put up with me stinks:}:}



Okgotogonow:}


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

alpha6 said:


> No offense Matt, but it appears that you don't know too much about hoThird, when you buy a pound of beef does it list all the antibiotics, vaccinations, growth hormones, and the feed they were fed, to include what pesticides and and other chemicals were used on those crops? No it doesn't.


Too bad. It should. In fact, I will buy chicken from a seller that goes out of their way to inform me that antibiotics were not used, etc. This is what I buy:
http://www.millerpoultry.com/about.php


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

mendocino queen honey said:


> Ive noticed that John Q. Public doesnt seem to realize that it is standard proceedure for most beekeepers to dose their hives with miticides and antibiotics at least once, twice a year- Mavrik., etc. :no:
> 
> They are vaugely aware that the bees are in some kind of trouble but... When I let it slip once or twice that most keepers poison their hives, I noticed that people were really shocked that "natural, raw honey" comes from hives where the bees were dosed with pesticides . I WOULD BE SHOCKED TOO! :scratch:
> 
> ...


I must be "John Q. Public", because I didn't know we would even THINK such a thing, let alone do it.
http://www.beesource.com/news/article/adeefined.htm :doh:

Matt, I am not sure who your beekeeper mentor was, but I would dump everything you were taught and start over. Find someone new that knows what they are doing. Or if you want, start asking questions in here more. There are so many smarter minds than mine, in here, that will give you more guidance than you could ask for. :thumbsup:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I second my own response. Do I hear a third?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Eaglerock said:


> I must be "John Q. Public", because I didn't know we would even THINK such a thing, let alone do it.
> http://www.beesource.com/news/article/adeefined.htm :doh:


I think that is called an "inconvenient truth."


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## nursebee (Sep 29, 2003)

Mendocino, I'd suggest putting together a pamphlet together for your visitors. Inform them of all the poisons you use for your bees. Explain to them which ones are approved for use and which ones are from a back of the envelope method. This will greatly decrease the perhaps ignorant questions from JQP.

For those that ask me, and many do not, I do explain what I use to treat my hives with. I do not share with them what others use but rather say I only eat honey if I know the management practices of the producer.

I think the price of local honey managed conscienciously is generally underpriced. Large beeks just do things differently. http://www.beesource.com/news/article/adeefined.htm


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Third. 

Fact is, commercial beeks put stuff in their hives that most people would not want to eat if they knew. IMO, if you are small producer/don't treat with hard chemicals, you should feel free to tell all you know about your honey and your methods compared to what people can buy in the grocery store. That includes the localness of the honey, the extent that it is heated, the extent that it is filtered and certainly what chemicals are likely to be in it. Then, by all means, charge what your product is worth in the eye of the consumer.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

>>>>R U ready to get mad?<<<<

Yes, to find out a fellow beek would spew out such garbage to the public is enough to make the pope use profanity. We have enough problems without you doing such a disservice as that. Poisoned bees do not make excess honey crops for us to harvest. Any bees that are poisoned won't be the ones that made the honey we are selling.

Barry, I third the notion.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Barry,

Actually I wish they would post what all is in beef, pork and chicken also. The truth is I hunt most of my meat (true free range) and buy the rest from organic ranches which in this area there are several of. I buy most of my veggies from local gardeners and actually trade honey for them so the cost is minimal which is nice. 

I have heard that some beeks use some toxic chemicals (but don't know any personally) and that there is a build up in the combs and that it can transmit in micro million parts into honey through bee to comb to honey contact, but that being said, there is a new breed of commercial beeks like myself and others in this area and other areas I am sure that prefer to treat with essential oils and though other means like using oxalic acid and drone comb cut out methods.


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## mendocino queen honey (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi Everyone,

Thanks Barry-I got your back.

Well, I did indeed iritate a couple of people.  sorry...

Lets try to get this right...

I (personally) am a:

Garbage spewing, ignorant, self hating, in need of mentoring, fool because I stated what appears to be very obvious: Some keepers use mitecides and prophalactic antibiotics in their beehives. The general public is unaware of this fact. Then you guys ARE saying the people should NOT be told what their foods are exposed to. Hmm -interesting definition of integrity. Low levels of avoidable toxic contaminants are ok as long as the people dont know about them AND the guy who merely mentions opening a conversation between honey producers should be shouted down and insulted. OK fine.

But there are keepers with integrity.

Bayer and others told us to use poison to "treat hives" Only the survivor super mites made it into the gene pool. 

Translation for the simple : treatment:it stopped working.

Now do you want another "treatment" to misuse?
What's going to happen then? Demand another and another.
We as an industry are no farther along than 20 years ago- with the exception of VSH and russian projects.

Anti biotics- there are relatively few effective antibiotics. When we eat small doses everyday in milk, eggs, chicken and yes honey, they too become ineffective. Again natural selection. Bad bugs survive and reproduce.

Mitecides are indeed poison by definition. they kill mites.
Suposedly below the threshhold to kill whole hives- according to the US Govt and corporations...and you put your blind trust in them? 

If youre not aware of all the bathtub concoctions (Taktic, Mavrik)that some commercial guys "treat" their hives with then Im not the only who could be called ignorant.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

If you are selling a used car, do you tell the prospect all the things wrong with it, or all the things right with it? It's that simple.

If you were to take a tour of one of each type of food processing plants, you would likely starve to death before you could eat anything bought at a store. 

I order eggs for breakfast, do you order unborn chicken embryos? There's just some things that aren't spoken about in public circles.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Ignorance*

Ignorance breeds fear. I have spent my whole life keeping bees and there is nothing I am prouder of than the honey my bees produce. It is subject to rigorous inspection prior to purchase and packing. Who in the HECK is this johnny come lately at the FLEA MARKET and what is he doing demeaning my product?


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

Tom G. Laury said:


> Ignorance breeds fear. I have spent my whole life keeping bees and there is nothing I am prouder of than the honey my bees produce. It is subject to rigorous inspection prior to purchase and packing. Who in the HECK is this johnny come lately at the FLEA MARKET and what is he doing demeaning my product?


I never used anything in my hives and don't plan on it. Maybe I should add that to my labels next year. Poison fee hives/poison free honey - or, toxin free


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Your labels*

You can put what you want on your labels but why put something on mine? With out knowing?


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## mendocino queen honey (Sep 4, 2008)

*sorry guys*

Sorry guys...

Honestly, Didnt mean to hurt anyone's feelings.

Pretty clearly there's an issue here. otherwise the tone wouldnt have gotten so shrill. I now know that now is not the time for this topic. I knew some feathers would fly when i named the thread. I just didnt think it would be tar and feathers...

My mistake: we're not going to be able to have an honest open discussion about this topic...at this time.:shhhh:

Again...apologies.

a chasened and humbled- matt


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Opren topics*

Near as I can tell you are the one closing " the door "


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## mendocino queen honey (Sep 4, 2008)

tom,

I always read your posts. So I was sorry that i managed to piss you off so quick. :doh:There's alot of different kinds of keepers. Understand , were sort of hippy out here on the coast- we discuss alternative energy and exchange granola recipes. and yes we talk about pesticide as "poison".

I have never pointed fingers at fellow bee keepers for their pest management practices. I may not agree with all their choices but I never said, "keeper Bob puts DDT in his hives- dont buy his honey"- nor would I ever say such a thing. I have said, in reply to a queery about the high price of my honey," WE use no treatments in OUR hives. We dont get as much honey because mites are killing our hives and we are breeding queen only from the survivors. That costs more. Your posts seem heartfelt and knowlegable. No offence was intended to you or your bussiness.

sincerly,
Matt


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Matt,

If you don't use chems in your hives, How can you make the statement in your first post here that most of us do? (WE DON'T) And if you look at your post on page one and compare it with your post on page two It would appear that you contradict yourself.

I'm not mad but I can see why iddee is.

Hawk


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## mendocino queen honey (Sep 4, 2008)

...better get those glasses checked, Robert. Go back and re read it again.

I never said I used that stuff in my hives. Just because I dont use chems- doesnt mean I dont comunicate with those that do. Heck it all over ABJ and Bee Culture. We all learned that it was nessesary. Most of the beginner books have whole sections on "treating" with Apistan and checkmite and all the gear (nitrile gloves, respirators , etc ) that is required to handle it "safely".

Its more than a little disingenuous for you to pretend that alot keepers dont use it. Again re read all the responses on page 1 on this tread; you'll notice that people got all sheepish and sly about what they say to their customers.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Never said you did. My point was that saying "it is standard proceedure for most beekeepers to dose their hives with miticides and antibiotics at least once, twice a year- Mavrik., etc." Is a harsh and untrue accusation. I would understand it if you really believed it but if you don't use them yourself, then you probably know that it's a lie.

Hawk


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Here we go*

I am going to postulate that my bees are clean as a whistle in spite of SOME acaricidal treatment, one that was once approved but now is UNAPPROVED!!!

MY colonies are like, completely normal, strong, brooding in late Sept. do youknow what that means? These are he best bees I have seenin YEARS...

Is there anyone whose LIVING DEPENDS ON IT who cares to comment?


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

Tom G. Laury said:


> You can put what you want on your labels but why put something on mine? With out knowing?


It was a joke. :scratch: :shhhh:


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

boy matt you sure seemed to have touched on some freyed nerves here... may I assume??? you enjoy playing with hornets nest in your time away from beesource.

it make one suspect that there is one or two here that would really rather not face the moral paradox which you described (and seem to be thinking about at some level). 

the difference I see is that some of us sell our honey... 1)face to face, to local folks that could well be our neighbor.... others 2) sell their honey in 55 gallon drums with no idea of who or where the honey is eventually consumed.

mr laury writes:
Is there anyone whose LIVING DEPENDS ON IT who cares to comment?

tecumseh: except for feeding my soul the bees are unessential for my life.

this however seems to be a strange question from someone who admits using unapproved products in their hives and who also insist that their product is untainted and pure. 

a curious but somewhat distorted view...yes?


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

mendocino queen honey said:


> Sorry guys...
> 
> Honestly, Didnt mean to hurt anyone's feelings.Feelings? This really has nothing to do with feelings. :no: Believe it or not, you did a good thing bring it up. Sorry, you just happen to become the pigeon we are using for target practice.
> 
> ...


Have a good weekend...


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

Robert Hawkins said:


> Matt,
> 
> If you don't use chems in your hives, How can you make the statement in your first post here that most of us do? (WE DON'T) And if you look at your post on page one and compare it with your post on page two It would appear that you contradict yourself.
> 
> ...


I agree with Hawk...


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Matt,

You keep referring to commercial beeks who treat their hives with poison, who are these guys because I know most of the commercial beeks in Colorado and a few from other states and none of them treat as you have suggested. 

and just because some of us don't sit around eating granola doesn't mean we treat our hives with chemicals. I eat meat and potatoes and care for my hives using the most natural ways known. I think what has got most people here shaking their heads is the assumptions you made and to date have posted nothing to back up what you put in your first post.

I suspect that you tell the public about poisoning of hives by commercial beeks just to boost your sales at the farmers market. If this is the case you are doing a dis-service to the whole beekeeping industry and worse, lying to make a few extra bucks.


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

Well said Alpha.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Tecumseh*

My honey is subjected to rigorous lab analysis before it is bought. Don't think you can say the same for flea market.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Prepared Testimony of Maryann Frazier
Senior Extension Associate
Department of Entomology
The Pennsylvania State University
before the
U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on Agriculture
Subcommittee on Horticulture and Organic Agriculture
on
Update on Colony Collapse Disorder in Honey Bee Colonies in the United States
June 26, 2008
http://agriculture.house.gov/testimony/110/h80626/Frazier.doc




> In a total of 108 pollen samples analyzed, 46 different pesticides including six of their metabolites were identified. Up to 17 different pesticides were found in a single sample. Samples contained an average of 5 different pesticide residues each. Only three of the 108 pollen samples had no detectable pesticides. In a total of 88 wax samples analyzed, 20 different pesticides including two of their metabolites were identified. As was found in pollen, fluvalinate, coumaphos, chlorpyrifos, and the fungicide chlorthalonil, were the most commonly detected pesticides with fluvalinate and coumaphos detected in 100% of the samples.
> 
> Unprecedented amounts of fluvalinate (up to 204 ppm) at high frequencies have been detected in brood nest wax, and pollen (bee bread). Changes in the formulation of fluvalinate over time resulting in a significant increase in toxicity to honey bees, makes this a serious concern. The large numbers and multiple kinds of pesticides that have been found could result in potentially toxic interactions for which there are no scientific studies to date. European researchers have found similar pesticides and frequencies in hive matrices and express similar concerns. Also these chronic levels of pesticides in pollen and wax at potentially acute toxicity levels need further investigation with regard to their potential interactions with other stressors (e.g. IAPV) and their potential contribution to CCD.


and



> Additionally, the chemical miticides being used to control varroa mites, accumulate in the wax combs and pollen reserves and are possibly contributing to the bee’s demise as much as they are controlling the mites. For the beekeeping industry to survive we must have safe, effective varroa mite control methods. This will only happen if significant new resources are focused in this direction.


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss (Aug 19, 2006)

Barry said:


> I know it's a touchy issue, but for me personally, I let my customers know that I do not put anything into my hives that the bees do not bring in themselves. No, I don't open feed either. I will not claim that my honey is more pure than . . .


Agreed. Greg and I don't use chemicals on our hives either. We did at one time, but quit over ten years ago.

Susan


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## papa bear (Nov 1, 2005)

do ya'll consider anything put in the hive s to be un-natural? like essential oils?


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

*If not chemicals what?*

What are you beeks that are not putting anything in your hives using to control the pests and problems? I have used fluvalinate and coumaphos to control mites, fumidil for nosema and tylan for foul brood. I have a hard time believing that some of you or as someone said most of you are not using any chemicals or treatments in your hives.


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## Mathispollenators (Jun 9, 2008)

*You take care of your stuff*

I treat my bees with any thing I can to get rid of the problems I have. Just as anyone would treat their livestock cows, chickens, pigs, or any thing else they have. I can not and will not rebuild the amount of hives and investment we lose by my not caring for my bees. Have you thought of the replacement cost a commercial beekeeper would suffer by not treating our hives with the approved methods. I know all the hobbyist that micro manage a few hives can suffer that loss and rebuild but not us pros but they treat their bees too. And yes we do sell in bulk so labeling isn't a big issue there. When it's sold around my place it's in 55 gallon barrels. So then I wonder how many hives some commercial people may have because I have never sat at a farmers market selling honey and probably in all my time haven't bottled more that 2 barrels in one year of honey to give most of that away.


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

someone said

"My honey is subjected to rigorous lab analysis before it is bought"

the big packers do rigorous analysis and then compare the data to their own internal specs which meet or exceed EPA regs for trace chems. 

so this statement above does not neccessarily mean the honey is free of beekeeper applied materials. not sure of the context of the poster. 

in the upper midwest, the use of homeboy treatments that are illegal is the norm. many commercial beeks have been fined in MN and NoDak in the past years. a recent BCulture informal survey showed something like 65% of all beeks surveyed used a hard chems to treat for mites. 

in general beesource is full of smaller beekeepers not the big boys who never would say in public or online what they are using for mites. 

i am against the use of hard chems in any hive but the truth is not many users of beesource make their sole living only with their bees so the finger waving here is kind of hypocritical.

its easy to point finger when your honey business is a hobby or sideline.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

*I don't want to rain on your parade, but!*



Barry said:


> I will buy chicken from a seller that goes out of their way to inform me that antibiotics were not used, etc. This is what I buy:
> http://www.millerpoultry.com/about.php


First things first, 99.9% to the tenth power of all poultry antibiotics are administered in the chickens' drinking water not in the chickens' feed so Miller's claim and your belief are only technically correct. 

Second thing, the animal protein requirement for growing healthy chickens is high and complex. I have seen chickens almost kill each other over such treasures as fresh cow patties, baby rats, mice, dead skunks, and live snakes up to about 18 inches long. You will have difficulty raising 10% of your baby chicks on vegan chicken feed unless cannibalism is high. (Read the post about chickens keeping wax moths in check) 

Third thing, this ad is an elaborate bed bug letter, except Miller used the fact that the Old Order Amish don't use electricity to hook you on a vision. They do however use small diesel engines (no spark plugs) and leather mill belts to pull ventilation fans, and propane, LNG, natural gas, coal, or wood to fire the brooders. The Observant Mennonites here use similar devices, and also use them to power their sewing machines, water pumps, and sawmills, MP2T.

Forth thing, Miller I assume is a member of the National Poultry Improvement Program. It is required in order to be in the Interstate poultry business. They at a minimum must vaccinate, and test to be allowed to ship their eggs to the hatchery, their baby chicks to the growing houses, and their fryer/broilers to slaughter or market. 

Think of it as a Federal government AFB free certificate needed every time a bee leaves or returns to the hive. Then again they can buy hatching eggs with Kryptonite in them and still make the same claim, as long as the hatching egg was laid by a NPIP hen and contains only NPIP rooster spermatozoa.

This said, let's all go back to those trilling days of yesteryear, if it makes you feel good, do it.


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

If youre not aware of all the bathtub concoctions (Taktic, Mavrik)that some commercial guys "treat" their hives with then Im not the only who could be called ignorant.[/QUOTE]

Gee, who has the rubber ducky and the bubble bath.LOL


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Since the foundation you put in your supers comes from cappings (as there is seldom any wax worth trying to extract from brood combs) and since that has been shown to be contaminated BEFORE you even put it in your hive, I don't see how you can say that supers don't get contaminated. Or that your honey is not contaminated? How did the cappings get contaminated in the first place? And now that you put them (in the form of new foundation) in your supers, how is it not contaminating your honey even if you never put any chemicals in your hive?


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss (Aug 19, 2006)

papa bear said:


> do ya'll consider anything put in the hive s to be un-natural? like essential oils?


Papa Bear, I'm not sure who you were directing that question to, but at this time (and for over 10 years) we have not put any treatments on our hives. I think each person has to decide for themselves what is acceptable to put in the hive and what is not. We will continue to avoid treating our hives for as long as possible. 

Susan


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

mr laury sezs:
My honey is subjected to rigorous lab analysis before it is bought. Don't think you can say the same for flea market.

tecumseh:
first a couple of questions... why is the above necessary? and could anyone really be certain as to what such test might or might not tell you? 

well I do sell a bit of my crop at a local flea markets and not one single customer has ever asked for my housekeeping seal of approval.... most seem to be seeking a product that is authentic, unadulterated and local. I think most know that they don't live in a 'clean room' or sanitized bubble. 

(based on conversations) folks who are significant honey consumers seem to me to be quite aware of some of the stuff that is being placed into hives. I don't think??? it profits any person producing product to hide their head in the sand and pretend the consuming public is ignorant in regards to these matters (actively avoiding a topic typically implies guilt).

to be quite honest I am not a purist is regards to treatment. if a hive is sick I treat and some small level of treatment I do simply because I do produce a insignificant number of nucs. so I will likely continue to treat for afb* and nosema in the winter months.

in regards to treatment of any kind...the really bottom line for me is that I am really not interested in helping produce a super bug (like the existing model of the varroa ain't bad enough). given the past history of the varroa anyone who places 'pest strips' inside of a hive (in my small mind) is aiding and abetting the varroa.

mathis pollinator writes:
Just as anyone would treat their livestock cows, chickens, pigs, or any thing else they have. I can not and will not rebuild the amount of hives and investment we lose by my not caring for my bees. 

tecumseh replies:
my good neighbors to the south (and they are most definitely commercial) advertise that they do not.

your statement does suggest two problems...

the first problem mathis is that the 'insecticide' (pest strip) treatments will eventually insure resistance. so you are only delaying the inevitable. if you are using 'shop towel' treatments you are likely speeding up this process.

the second problem is in regards to product and hive contamination... which is a problem that is typically passed off to the honey consuming public.

*after several years of importing a significant level of minnesota hygenic stock I will likely curtain any treatment for afb this year (wait, watch and see). I mention this in that this does suggest that strategy (which is really what integrated pest management is really all about) can minimize treatment (it should also limit how quickly pest obtain resistance).


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

high rate of speed said:


> Gee, who has the rubber ducky and the bubble bath.LOL


With a remark like that, it appears you do. Quite telling when one won't engage in a levelheaded discussion, but resort to sarcastic remarks.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Tom G. Laury said:


> My honey is subjected to rigorous lab analysis before it is bought.


By who? Please share with us the breakdown of elements found in your honey and the levels of each. I'm interested to see what "rigorous" means.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Scrapfe said:


> First things first,
> 
> Second thing,
> 
> ...


Lot's of speculation here with no facts given in regards to Miller.
What is a fact is that there is a hi/low range within any ag product when it comes to traces of drugs and chemicals. I'm looking to consume from the low end.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Bud Dingler said:


> i am against the use of hard chems in any hive but the truth is not many users of beesource make their sole living only with their bees so the finger waving here is kind of hypocritical.
> 
> its easy to point finger when your honey business is a hobby or sideline.


Help me understand this.

To my way of thinking, being hypocritical would be when a hobby or sideline beekeeper criticizes a "big producer" for using hard chems and then uses these chems in their own hives.

*hypocrisy - the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.

I'm not into pointing fingers as much as I am into letting consumers know what they're getting when they buy MY honey.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Rigorous testing*

Hi Barry

When I sell to Golden Heritage foods, my main buyer, they run chem analysis for all the miticides and antibiotics. They also analyze for BACTERIA even. I send them a sample first for prelim screen. Then when honey is received it gets tested again. Takes nearly 30 days to complete. This is not done in house but by an independent lab. If you have an inkling that there may be residue you wouldn't want to ship honey to them because if it doesn't pass you pay freight. I have never had any of my honey come up with even minimal residues. I do use a hard treatment but very carefully. The material I use has not shown up in the pollen contamination studies AT ALL because it does not have an affinity for honey or wax, unlike the APPROVED materials ( fluvalinate & coumaphos ) both of which did appear. Yes there is some misuse of chemicals but not all of the contamination is from homeboy treatments I don't think. 

This thread has been good for me because it made me think and wonder why I felt so threatened by the blanket comments about chemical use. The reason is that I take a great deal of pride in what I produce and wouldn't sell something I wouldn't put on my own table, yet my living depends on the well being of my bees. So I have to make choices. Walk a mile in my shoes before you accuse criticize and abuse.


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

Tom, what size of an operation are you talking about? It would help put things in perspective. How many hives, and what's your moving schedule throughout the year?


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Dug*

I don't know what difference it makes, but I operate about 800 colonies. Go to midwest when dry in Calif. In the good years I'll produce 100 + drums. Bad years I don't wanna talk about.


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## France (Apr 5, 2007)

Interesting. . ? 
Obviously a touchy issue for many?

Have no intent to get into this fray, but a total disregard for a post from Deknow does speak loudly than many would like!?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Tom G. Laury said:


> they run chem analysis for all the miticides and antibiotics. They also analyze for BACTERIA even. I send them a sample first for prelim screen. Then when honey is received it gets tested again.


So do you get a printout of the analysis or simply a pass/fail notice?



> I have never had any of my honey come up with even minimal residues.


This statement leads me to believe that you are not given a copy of the complete analysis with all breakdowns shown. Please correct me if I'm wrong.



> I do use a hard treatment but very carefully. The material I use has not shown up in the pollen contamination studies AT ALL because it does not have an affinity for honey or wax, unlike the APPROVED materials ( fluvalinate & coumaphos ) both of which did appear.


So your wax did show contamination of fluvalinate & coumaphos if I understand what you wrote above?



> Walk a mile in my shoes before you accuse criticize and abuse


I don't recall accusing or abusing you in what I've written. I am critical about the use of chemicals and drugs and the purity of honey. I'm also a bit skeptical about the testing and what levels are considered acceptable due to the fact that those acceptable levels have changed over time, and I don't mean they've become more stringent, but I won't push this issue too hard.

If the little guy can manage things in such a way where chemicals and drugs aren't used in their hive, why the apparent animosity for them making this known to the consumer?


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Analysis*

I have seen the printouts on the desk no they don't send them out but I am sure they would if requested. If you really want to know just contact GH these people are highly ethical. 

Wax contamination I refer to is the post in this thread by deknow, I think you just wish my wax showed contamination.

What acceptable levels levels have changed over time? What fact are you referring to?


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

*Don't **** on me and tell me its raining.*



Barry said:


> ...I will buy chicken from a seller that goes out of their way to inform me that antibiotics were not used, etc. This is what I buy:
> http://www.millerpoultry.com/about.php


After viewing this sight I would like to make some pertinent observations.

Observation number one: All poultry antibiotics to the power of ten are administrated to poultry in their drinking water. Your poultry supplier is only technically correct in saying they don't put antibiotics in their chickens' food.

Observation number two: The animal protein requirement for a growing chickens is high, we're dealing with a modern T-Rex here. You will not raise many chickens on vegan chicken feed unless cannibalism is rampant, This is from my and my families involvement in commercial chicken farming, and operating our own processing plant and broiler houses just like Miller. Later we went into layers, same thing applies. When I raised chickens as a hobby, I saw "free" range chickens eat live snakes 18 inches long. I saw them devour dead skunks, scent and all. What they do to baby mice and rats is right out of Jurassic Park. A hen with chicks will follow a bovine around for hours waiting for the cow to poop. Miller telling us a chicken can thrive without animal by products don't make it so.

Observation number three: The idea of Old Order Amish farmers caring for chickens is bucolic and romantic. However, the chicken houses Miller Poultry described in their ad is the same description of any modern chicken house, except that the Amish don't use electricity. The Amish do use small Diesel engines (no spark plugs) to pull belt and pulley systems driving exhaust fans, water pumps, air compressors, sewing machines. The Mennonites here use the same devices. Remember, the Amish are a break away sect of the Mennonites. Miller has their customers hooked on a fairy tail of the customers' own making.

Observation number four: There is something in the poultry industry called the National Poultry Improvement Program (NPIP). You must participate in NPIP to ship poultry or eggs in Interstate Commerce. Under NPIP you must test, and or vaccinate for certain poultry diseases. How can Miller ship their eggs to the hatchery, their chicks to the Amish, their fryers to slaughter, and their broilers to you without NPIP approval?

Observation number five: Miller never said where their hatching eggs came from, they can come from a hatching egg farm that feeds Kryptonite to their breeders as long as the eggs are laid by a NPIP hen and contain only NPIP certified rooster spermatozoa.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Ah Scrapfe*

Thank you for the dose of reality.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*On the way home*

Tonight I was looking forward to Barrys' response and thinking to myself how much easier it is to be a sniper than a point man. But the point man makes progress.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Scrapfe said:


> *Don't **** on me and tell me its raining*


Excuse me? :waiting:



> Observation number one [snip] five


What is a fact is that there is a hi/low range within any ag product when it comes to traces of drugs and chemicals. I'm looking to consume from the low end.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Tom G. Laury said:


> What acceptable levels levels have changed over time? What fact are you referring to?


http://www.beesource.com/news/article/coumaphoslevel.htm


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Barry*

Sorry can't hear you


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

That's OK, I was talking to everyone else. :shhhh:


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Oh OK Sorry*

I read it regards to coumaphos tolerances, No?


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

I did not know there was a term for the so called miss labled or illegal chemicals keepers use.Sorry Barry if that offended you on such a heated disscussion.All honey buyers test honey by a ppm scale,Im sure cows,pigs,chickens etc,etc are tested as well.Everyone should remember bees can be so called poisioned from registered chems as well.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Posting reference*

Also barry:

Your reference is EIGHT YEARS OLD


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

So then keepers that dont use any chemicals at all in their hives,does that make them organic or more special than someone else I think not.How many chems are brought back and stored in the hive naturally.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

high rate of speed said:


> How many chems are brought back and stored in the hive naturally.


Good question! I stated in an earlier post:

"The only area of debate is purity of honey, and everyone would have to have their honey tested to know how pure their honey really is."


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Tom G. Laury said:


> Also barry:
> 
> Your reference is EIGHT YEARS OLD


Yeah! 8 years ago the EPA had to raise the allowable tolerance of coumaphos from 10-15 parts per billion to 100 parts per billion cause 10-15 parts per billion honey was getting hard to come by. So now we're all comfortable with 100 ppb and think nothing of it. Your honey may be passing the acceptable levels of today, but it's potentially ten times more contaminated with coumaphos than it was eight years ago. Some want to manage in such a way as to have levels at or below those of eight years ago.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Barry*

The things you imply what a crock


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

Some also choose to purchase wax foundatoin to.How pure is that honey and wax?:no:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Some do, but I don't.


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## peletier (May 5, 2007)

This thread has been a good demonstration of the diversity of the participants on this forum. We have input from wanna-bees to old-timers ; from hobbyists to full-time wholsalers. Purists, realists, philosophers, dreamers, kooks, scientists. What a mix! I love it. ANSWERS?? They're in there somewhere.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

*Walking in a land mine field*

One only has to watch an observation hive to see how things get moved around in a hive. When the bees need brood room they move the honey up. When they need capping wax, they move wax where they need it. I see old dark wax moved up into the supers in my producing hives although I could not attest that I have seen honey moved up in them, who could?

My point is; just because you treat your hives with supers off does not mean that those chems don't get moved up into your supers when they are put on.

The only way to keep chems out of your supers is to not put the chems in your broods in the first place. There will still be a trace of contamination coming from the outside environment, but that is not controllable. The only control we have is what we put in our hives.

The last treatment I have used was Oxalic vapor and that was quite a few years ago now, but that is the only thing I have used since I have been here on Beesource. I don't buy foundation, I use Permacomb and remove all wax from cut-outs as soon as possible. I consider my honey as close to organic as is any honey that is labeled on the shelves to be.

When customers ask what 'Chemical free' on my label means I explain to them that I do not add any pesticides to my hives to control mites. That I may loose more hives because of this but I produce a better and cleaner product.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

I find it ironic really, since I've now heard (here and elsewhere) of a couple of beekeepers that are dedicated to not treating for mites, and out breeding them, but have been using terramycin for years and years. I just learned of a local more well known beek who won't treat for mites, but always treats with tm.

Bacterial resistance is going to kill us all far quicker than a few ppm of coumaphos in our honey or super mites will.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

scads writes:
I find it ironic really, since I've now heard (here and elsewhere) of a couple of beekeepers that are dedicated to not treating for mites, and out breeding them, but have been using terramycin for years and years.

tecumseh replies: just to make everything perfectly clear scads I do treat for mites and I do use tm.

any treatment for mites I might use has to be something that doesn't look like a pest strip and not contain some chlorinated hydrocarbon. history of past usage of this type of stuff suggest that any product along these lines will quite quickly produce a super bug. you can of course up the dosage (as some of Barry's references seems to suggest) but eventually the stronger dose will have little effect on the varroa but will quickly kill you. I saw this process (up close and personal) in operation on a large scale when I was a very young man and my attitude in regards to this will likely never change. 

I have in the past used tm in the fall by dusting with powdered sugar. it was a portion of the fall rountine taught to me by an old commercial beekeepeer ....old habits are difficult to break. This year I will not treat and will play wait and see.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Tom G. Laury said:


> I have seen the printouts on the desk no they don't send them out but I am sure they would if requested. If you really want to know just contact GH these people are highly ethical.


I sent them an email but haven't received a reply.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

tecumseh said:


> I have in the past used tm in the fall by dusting with powdered sugar. it was a portion of the fall rountine taught to me by an old commercial beekeepeer ....old habits are difficult to break. This year I will not treat and will play wait and see.


Yeah, I see that helping out new local beekeepers around here. They sprinkle the powder because they were told to sprinkle the powder. They have no idea why, but the bees need it. 
I really hope that it goes well for you. I've never had a problem and hope to keep it that way too. I'll sprinkle the powder, but only at last resort and if I have a really good reason to....

In the meantime...I use chemicals. To clean (residues?), to brush my teeth, to clean my food, to wash my hair, to clean my body, to kill them dad-gummed wasps, to get the fingerprints off my windows, to preserve the wood in my house, to make my car move... If I have to use some on my bees to get them to survive, I'll use the mildest ones that will do the job and make sure it isn't in my honey enough to hurt anybody. As with anything else.

That is why honey is tested, to make sure the chems aren't getting into the honey. And if you are eating enough honey that you get sick from the little tiny amount that could exist in there...then maybe you need to revisit your diet.

My honey is chemical free. Unless plastic leaches out chemicals that we don't know about...:shhhh:


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I'm sure there are more accurate ways to describe contamination by undesirable compounds that are used as pesticides, or for other purposes, than to simply call them "chemicals". 

Everything in our entire known universe is composed, entirely, of chemicals (and empty space). Honey is composed 100% of chemicals - seems hard to say that something that is made entirely of chemicals, is somehow "chemical free".
:scratch:


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