# Larval bees on the landing ramp



## Orion (Jun 18, 2007)

Why would I be seeing larval bees on the landing ramp outside the hive entrance? 

Jim


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Sounds like they are throwing out the drones. Are you in southern calif? They remove all drones and drone larva for the winter. It has been done for some time in most parts of the country.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I would think sometimes it is a sign a SMR VSH type trait. Bees that clean varroa affected larvae out of the hive. I have never seen drone removal behavior in our part of the country. We have drones in our hives year round. I have repeatedly advised people on this board to take into consideration the great climate variations that affect bee behavior and methods across the country and world when they give advice, but they usually don't.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I have repeatedly advised people on this board to take into consideration the great climate variations that affect bee behavior and methods across the country

Which is why you should also take into account where the advice comes from. Since you are from California, I'd tend to listen to those from California on issues that are seasonal or climatic. Cleaning out drone larvae is often seen in the fall during the great drone massacre. But I don't have any idea when that would take place where you live. Larvae are also chewed out in response to brood diseases and Varroa mites. This is a beneficial behavior to find in the bees.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

odfrank sezs:
I have repeatedly advised people on this board to take into consideration the great climate variations that affect bee behavior and methods across the country and world when they give advice

tecumseh replies:
here... here... and let me second (or thirdly) od's suggestion.

you are north of San Fransico correct? I would also suspect that the bees have determined something is wrong with the larvae and they are being removed.... this might be a hygenic or smr type trait in action.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I don't know what the weather has been like over near the coast, but up here in hillbilly country we have just gone through a period of reasonably warm weather that could encourage a larger brood nest followed by a week of nights in the teens, followed by temperatures in the fifties to low sixties. Under these conditions I occasionally see some housecleaning of brood that I assume has died when the cluster tightened down and left them behind to freeze.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

I'm not sure if this hold true in California , but . . .

STARVED BROOD - Normally when there is a shortage of food (in colony), larvae are removed or consumed by the adult bees. However, when there is a sudden shortage of adult bees (pesticide kill or overheating) available to feed the larvae, they starve. Affected larvae are not restricted to periphery of brood combs. Most striking feature is appearance of larvae seemingly crawling out of brood cells to search for food. While most always restricted to larval stage, emerging bees may starve if they were stressed as pupae by chilling or overheating. These bees usually die w/ only their heads out of cells and w/ their tongues extended [Ref 12, p1112].


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## Orion (Jun 18, 2007)

Thanks all!

Yes I am just North of San Francisco. My bees are supposed to be from an SMR strain. We have had a very mild fall until last week when the nights had dropped below freezing for most of the week. Since then weather has been fair. Just yesterday is when I noticed the Larva on the ramp. I do believe I had also seen one been get kicked out but it went right back in with no problem. I have been afraid to open the hive for an inspection due to cooler weather. Any other thoughts?

Jim


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## Orion (Jun 18, 2007)

Ohh... I should mention the bees have at least one full deep of honey per hive, and I watched twenty five percent of the bees coming in brining in pollen. But the hustle bustle of the warmer winter has subsided.

Jim


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

With the balmy weather followed by a cold spell, followed by a warmer spell where they could clean, could it be chilled brood?

With the great drone massacre, many drone are able to slip by the bouncers. They will get escorted out again later. If they are throwing out drones they also will be chewing out drone pupae.

Rick


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

"Just yesterday is when I noticed the Larva on the ramp. I do believe I had also seen one been kicked out but it went right back in with no problem".

The "Larva" went right back in??? I hope you have your terminology correct and we are all talking about the same thing. Larva don't move [very much] or live very long outside of the cell. How fast did it "move".... right back in?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*He's in the Bay Area!!! LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION*

"Chilled Brood" "Starved Brood" "Drone Massacre" IT DON'T HAPPEN HERE!!!

Those words are not in the vocabulary where we keep bees. Possibly the reason broods gets chilled is because mites have taken out the population to cover them. Our biggest problem this time of year is honey bound brood chambers. The flow never stops in suburban areas. There are several types of eucalyptus popping into full bloom, rosemary all over, Brazilian pepper, to name a few. We haven't gotten under 45 degrees yet. 
I will repeat again: ponder the OP's location before you give senseless advice.

I should check every few weeks all winter and see if there is ever a time we have no drones. I doubt it.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

I would think OD Frank that there could be a significant temperature difference between locations north of San Francisco and those location south of the city. I know from experience that there can be a significant difference in temperature between your location and San Francisco proper at this time of year.

Like Oldbee I would like to hear whether it was a drone or larvae that crawled back inside the hive. Anyway it does sound a bit like smr is being displayed.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

There is only a few degrees difference , maybe some wind factor due to fog wind. Not enough to chill brood unless there is some other reasons the bees are not covering it. I checked my max/min thermometer this morning, has not dropped below 45 and I am in a cold windy area. I bet the bees do NOT fly in the bay area less than three days a year. I see them flying in the rain all the time.


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## Orion (Jun 18, 2007)

I just went back out and grabbed the two bees left on the ramp (one is still moving) the others are gone. They are small immature workers I think. Each is about one half to two-thirds the size of a foraging worker. The strange thing is now that I look at them closely they do have their tongues out. They are tiny with their abdomen just smaller than the thorax. The wings are not fully developed. I have two hives right now and both of them are showing the same thing. I should mention both hives were working strong yesterday. Is it possible to have a starved brood situation when both hives have a full deep and partial super of honey? Can I still open the hives for a full inspection during weather in the 60’s? I should add both hives had maybe four to five of the larval bees mentioned above on the landing ramp. There was also a bee that looked sick/weak lying on the ramp, which could not stand up.

The bee that went back in after what appeared to have been escorted out was fully-grown and flying. I couldn’t tell if it was a drone or a worker.

The week I was referring to was cold enough to put ice and frost over the yard and cars. I should invest in a weather station.


Thanks Much Jim


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

> We have had a very mild fall until last week when the nights had dropped below freezing for most of the week. Since then weather has been fair. Just yesterday is when I noticed the Larva on the ramp. I do believe I had also seen one been get kicked out but it went right back in with no problem.


Sorry, I skimmed and read the last sentance as drone, especially with the kicking out part. And I'm assuming if it can freeze, then the brood can chill for whatever reason. I'm sorry if that is not so in your area. We know that a lot of chemicals cause cancer only in CA, so maybe the bees are different too .... 

It is amazingly hard to diagnose stuff in word format without all of the details.

And the answer to your problem is.....

Wings not fully developed? I think that this is what you mean by larval. That is the key here.. sounds like it is probably Deformed Wing Virus(DWV), usually spread by an over-abundance of Varroa mites. This is a good indication that your hive is facing impending doom from mites and you will probably want to treat them immediately with your favorite mite treatment.

Sometimes the bees will have worn out wings from foraging, but those are usually straight but very tattered wings. There are a few other situations that could be similar, but I'd still have to guess DWV.


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## Orion (Jun 18, 2007)

*Photo's*

Here are a couple photo's. Hope it works.


















Jim


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## Orion (Jun 18, 2007)

Should have added tis in with the photo's.
<I just went back out and grabbed the two bees left on the ramp (one is still moving) the others are gone. They are small immature workers I think. Each is about one half to two-thirds the size of a foraging worker.>

Jim


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

yup, DWV....treat for mites.....

They can sometimes detect pupae that are defective and will drag them out, as well as kicking out the sick ones that already hatched.


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## Walliebee (Nov 17, 2006)

I agree. That's the classic signs of a heavy mite load. There are so many mites in each cell that the young bee dies or is too weak to emerge from her cell. 

Get treating ASAP. 

If there is any good news, it that you bees are showing good hygenic behavior.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

What was it that you saw in the photos that made you determine it was a heavy mite load? I don't think I saw any mites in the photos but what did you see re: the bees?

Tanya


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Unless you have some old "dope" you want to use up (to get rid of),
I would suggest that you save the money you'll spend on meds,
and plan on "new bees" come spring.

Treating now (time of year), and the amount of your mite load, my guess is the 
hive will collapse about Feburary (even if treated now).

This hive, w/ deformed wing bees, is, and has been, heavily infested for a long period of time.
There should have been plenty of mites on a sticky board back in summer to 
suggest treatment need back in August. 

Treatment in August kills the mites, allows the bees to recover, and those bees raise
the "winter" bees that survive til spring. All of the bees in this hive are and have been 
too sick, for too long, to have raised healthy "winter" bees.

Now for the good news 
Think of all you have learned this past summer


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Sr. Tanya . . .

Its the "description" of the bees, not "mites in the photo" (none there) that indicate "the problem".


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

Oh, thanks, Dave.

Tanya


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## Orion (Jun 18, 2007)

OK so lets say it is DWV. Do I treat for both mites and DWV or just mites?
Also what is recommended for those treatments if thats the rout I go?

Thanks again! Jim


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>treat both mites and DWV or just mites . . .
I'm not sure how one would "treat DWV", I dont think (to date) there is a treatment for a virus (in bees, that we can afford).

But, since mites cause the DVW to become "active" (DWV is present in most hives, in an "inactive" form), removing the mites is usually the "first choice".

>what is recommended for those treatments . . .
It is "best" if the mites are removed BEFORE winter bees are to be reared.
About August, if an effective treatment(s) is applied, mite level will be reduced and thus allow the bees being hatched then (Aug/Sep) to remain healthy and THEY in turn raise HEALTHY bees that will overwinter in the hive.

Now, (this time of year) if bees are showing deformed wings (meaning MANY mites are in the cell, FEEDING on the bee as it develops, transfering DWV to that bee) or if the hive is already full of weak, virus infected, bees trying to survive, they AIN'T gonna live long, even if they are treated NOW or in the future.

Oxalic acid dribble is often recommended as a winter-time treatment. It may kill some mites, but if the bees are ALREADY damaged, removing mites will NOT make the bees healthy. Only removing mites at a time of year when NEW bees can later be reared, is "that" treatment effective (in winter).


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

"The bee that went back in after what appeared to have been escorted out was fully-grown and flying".----Orion.

Ahh! That clears that up. I think of a "larva" of a bee as only that stage after it hatches from the egg and is "WORM-LIKE"; without any defined major parts of an insect; head, thorax and abdomen.....legs, etc., that appears in the next stage---the PUPA.

Thanks for posting the photos. It looks like deformed wing virus; not good! The mites are a vector for the virus so if you can treat for mites you will hopefully get rid of [control] the DWV. I don't think there is a treatment specifically for the virus.

I am fairly NEW at beekeeping with mites and other pests now myself so I can't say what to use to treat in your area. Maybe in your area there is still hope to save the hives because of the mild winter. Here in WI. the bees are going to be pretty much "cooped-up" for the next 3-4 months.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>Maybe in your area there is still hope to save the hives because of the mild winter . . .

The Randy Oliver (in California) articles in ABJ, over the past few months, describes "August" treatment. (I have copies, if anyone would like to read them.)


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## Orion (Jun 18, 2007)

I will break open the hives to check for mite levels, and order up some Mite-AwayII just in case. If they are doomed they’re doomed but I can't just let them wither away without tiring.
I would love to get those articles from you if possible. Maybe I can order a back issue from Dadant.

Thanks for all the help! Jim


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

You could go here: www.scientificbeekeeping.com It is Randy Oliver's web site; author of the articles in ABJ. mentioned by Dave W.

Go to "varroa management' on the right side, then go to "The Arsenal: Natural Treatments-Part I. Go down the page and there is a chart for Nevada City, CA. [don't know where that is] regarding mite treatment during the season. Most of the treatments ARE temperature/weather sensitive. It's all up to you. That's all I can say. 
Good luck.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

I wouldn't say that they are doomed. Just a first warning sign.

I see DWV frequently in my hives, some worse than others, but they keep going. I do treat them in the fall.

It is just something to take seriously, without treatment they can fail anywhere from a month to 5 months. From the description of your climate from odfrank, you should be able to treat almost all the way through the winter. A powder sugar dusting should give you a good quick idea of your mite load, and knock a bunch down. A harder treatment like mite-away can take care of the rest of them for you.

Rick


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## Orion (Jun 18, 2007)

Thanks All! Keep the info comming... I will keep you all up to date as I go.

Jim


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>keep you all up to date . . .

Please do. That's how "we" all learn.


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## Orion (Jun 18, 2007)

OK… So I did a powder sugar sift on my hives. I noticed when I pulled the bottom boards to get rid of the excess sugar I did see some mites. I then oiled the board and crammed it back in for 24 hours. When I pulled the board out today I saw at least 50 mites on each board and a little powdered sugar as well. I cleaned the board, oiled it and put it back in to check again later tomorrow. I was told that if I did this 3 times in 1-week intervals that most all of the mites would be gone and I would stay “organic”. I cleaned the dead bees of the landing ramp yesterday and today there were more dead bees on the ramp. The ones on the ramp today looked like they were all fully-grown bees unlike the half seizers I told you about earlier in this story. 
Do you feel I should still treat with Mite-Away 2? 

Thanks Jim


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I don't see that anyone has answered your question about opening the hive at 60 degrees for a thorough inspection. At sixty degrees I would not hesitate to examine the brood chamber, but I would keep it short, ie. I wouldn't wast any time looking for the queen, just check for brood pattern, especially a bad shotgun pattern. In your area you might still have a few drone cells, I would take a toothpick and pull the brood from them, pop them in a container for later examination rather than keep the cluster exposed while you examine them, and get it all buttoned up within five minutes. If you have a bad mite problem any drone brood you have should be heavily infested.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Relating to the talk about temperature and location, I used to live not far from oddfrank and worked all over the bay area. I know he keeps some of his bees in the town I lived in and can testify the there are times when it seems like the winters are nicer than the summers becasue of the warm ocean current just off the coast. On the other hand, once you get away from the ocean and SF Bay and especially if you get any altitude it can be a differant world. There are places I worked in Northern Marin, Sonoma, and Lake county that could get almost as cold as where I am now in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. Forty or fifty miles can mean 20 degrees differance in low temperature out here.


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## yoyo (Jun 13, 2007)

Its good you finally did the sticky board test. I found out the hard way that a sticky board means STICKY. I tried it without anything sticky and saw only 3-5 mites in 24hrs. Added some crisco and the numbers went to around 15-20. I too had DWV and noticed the bees with no wings being taken out.I treated with Api-life Var and I posted all the mite drop counts on here. This was back this summer.You could search for the post "started treatment with apilife var today" to read the posts. You must take into account when using the stickyboard the size of the colony. Remember this mite drop number represents a percentage of what's in the colony. So, 50 mites in a huge colony might not be critical , but 50 mites in a smaller colony can be devastating. I saw more mites with my stronger colony but saw no signs of DWV. Of course genetics can also be a factor that will determine how many mites it takes to become the determining factor of when to treat or when not to. I think trying to be as organic as possible is an admirable thing, but at this stage, I would not hesitate to bring out something else other than sugar if it meant saving my colony. I am sure other will chine in at this point. Good luck and keep us informed as we all learn from this kind of post.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

"I am fairly NEW at beekeeping with mites and other pests now myself."-- Oldbee.

That being said, I have not used Mite-Away and have very little knowledge of beekeeping in CA. except what I have read about almond pollination. It looks like you are doing everything possible to save your hive/hives. The weather in your area is highs of around 60 F. and lows in the upper 30's, so you are within the "ballpark" for formic acid, but JUST BARELY according to the CA. chart and it looks like it's not going to get much warmer for awhile. You probably already know this. Whether you should treat now or not, I don't know. Sorry; no help there because I don't know if bees are flying on warm days or when the hive is producing new bees, etc. etc. and whether it would save your bees now that DWV has been identified. Good luck.


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## Orion (Jun 18, 2007)

Alright my bee friends…

I just got back from work so I have not seen my girls for 96 hours. I have some Mite-away II coming in the mail so I have not used it yet. Today is a nice ___ day. I checked the oiled bottom board and found this (attached Photo’s). Defiantly there are mites on the board and junk too. Of my two hives one was working well with lots of activity at the landing board, the other was very inactive. I saw nice young fuzzy bees in the front of the slow hive on the ground like they were just lost and did not know where to go. Look at the pic’s of the bottom boards and let me know what you thing. I am afraid the weak hive my be to far gone (judging by the activity and the pattern on the board. I listened to the side of the hive and could hear a buzz every now and then but no humm like I am used to.

Alright my bee friends…
I just got back from work so I have not seen my girls for 96 hours. I have some Mite-away II coming in the mail so I have not used it yet. Today is a nice ___ day. I checked the oiled bottom board and found this (attached Photo’s). Defiantly there are mites on the board and junk too. Of my two hives one was working well with lots of activity at the landing board, the other was very inactive. I saw nice young fuzzy bees in the front of the slow hive on the ground like they were just lost and did not know where to go. Look at the pic’s of the bottom boards and let me know what you thing. I am afraid the weak hive my be to far gone (judging by the activity and the pattern on the board. I listened to the side of the hive and could hear a buzz every now and then but no humm like I am used to.


































Thanks for your help! Jim.


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## Orion (Jun 18, 2007)

I might add the the brown running stuff is honey that had didded down to where the bees could not get to it, when I had opened the hive 6 days ago. I dont know if the inside is cleaned up or if it's still a mess and leaking.

Jim L.


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