# Screws instead of nails for box assembly?



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

My elbow still hasn't fully recovered from last summer's assembly mania, so with the half dozen or so boxes I still have to make this year I was wondering if screwing (and of course, gluing) the additional deeps together would work as well as nailing them does.

Any suggestions or tips?

Any technical descriptions of the best screws to use?

I realize it will cost more to use screws, but then so does physical therapy for tendonitis.

So far this year I've just bought assembled boxes, because I can pick them up locally. Shipping charges on assembled boxes must be crazy. But I still need a few more boxes and I have a stack of left-over unassembled parts, so I'd like to use them up.

Thanks!

Nancy


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

sorry for your pain. Hope you're on the mend.
Sure screws will work. My favorite for outdoor applications are Deckmate screws. However for this application it might split the wood. you would have to predrill imo.
A better option with a lot of pulling power is these from Kreg. Make sure you get stainless steel ones so they don't rust. These are thinner and the head is different so it doesnt split wood. It does need a square drill driver tip so make sure you have one. Home depot sells them. 
https://www.kregtool.com/store/c20/kregreg-screws/p302/stainless-steel-pocket-hole-screws/

edit......those are ridiculously expensive. If its painted over try the basic kreg ones or the deckmates and predrill.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I usually use staples from a pneumatic stapler to make hive bodies, but I use plenty of screws elsewhere.

I'd avoid the cheap screws sold as "drywall screws", as they really are made for the lightest load interior (dry) conditions. Galvanized screws are a better choice for outdoors use. And "coated" screws that may be intended for use with "treated" wood are similar to galvanized in weather resistance.

Personally, I mostly use "square drive" (AKA 'Robertson') headed screws. The square drive head is much less likely to slip (cam out) when driving compared to a Phillips head screw. Square drive screws are less readily available than Phillips, and may cost a bit more, but the reduction in frustration is worth it to me.

I buy my square drive screws wherever I can get a good price, but for a 'one stop' source, McFeeleys has a large selection: https://www.mcfeelys.com/


If you are assembling hive bodies with 3/4" thick wood, try to find screws that do not have any threads for 3/4" from the head of the screw. Similarly, if you are using 7/8" wood, try to find screws that do not have threads for 7/8" from the head. The point is that having threads in both pieces of wood is counterproductive to making a tight joint. For the best joint, the threads should only be in the "second" board. However, if you have to compromise, choose screws that have the least amount of threads in the "first" board.


Note that whatever head you choose, a powered (cordless or corded) driver is the best choice if you have 'hand' issues.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

#8 X 2" is what we use. We don't drill and rarely do we have a split or chip if we are dead center of the two boards. We use three to a joint. Never had a problem. Glue is optional if you use four per corner with two going one way and two going the other. This is done with butt joints not box joints and we've never had an issue. I would rather drill than hammer any day and screws are proven better than nails in most all applications.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

I use #7 nails two inches long. Elmer's glue. If nailing is a problem, predrilling will take a load off your elbow. A smaller, finish hammer will be easier on your elbow as well. Good luck Nancy! HTH


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## Outdoor N8 (Aug 7, 2015)

For a couple years now, I screw the tops and bottoms (8 screws/box) using 9 x 2 1/4, self drilling, deck screws. Then 2in staples in all the middle fingers and copious amounts of glue.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Predrilled holes, 2" exterior deck screws, and TiteBond III glue. I make my own boxes and use butt joints: 4 screws each corner, total 16 screws per deep box; 3 screws per corner, total 12 screws per medium box. Hope the elbow is better, I have one that acts up occasionally too.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Thanks for all the tips!

I'm using 7/8ths inch, box-jointed Betterbee boxes, with pre-drilled holes. In other words, The Good Stuff, which is handy because I personally am challenged just by assembling pre-drilled 2" shims.

I always grumble when the shims come with square-drive heads, but because of all the excellent advice you've offered, I'll go ahead and get the proper driver, and the good screws, which probably will require venturing out of my tiny village hardware store. 

Nancy


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

Let your store know what you need and they'll get it for you.


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## Sour Kraut (Jun 17, 2012)

Drill / countersink bit in one cordless screwdriver

# 2 Phillips bit in the other; I use # 8 by 1-5/8 weatherproof screws.

Pre-drill and countersink all the holes, assemble with a couple screws in the center of each corner

Check for square, adjust as needed ( use a bar clamp with one end offset from the other, one way will pull it square, the other won't)

OR

I made a jig of a piece of plywood cut EXACTLY square, 18-7/16 by 14-11/16 to fit inside the boxes

One side has a pair of 2 x 4 'feet' assembled 'flat' (to center it in a medium), the other has the 2 x 4's 'on edge' (for deeps)

After putting one screw each way in the center of each corner, I slip the box over the jig, and clamp it both ways and finish the job to one end of the corners, flip it over, re-clamp and do the other ends of the joints.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

With a good glue, screws are a gross overkill, not to mention the added cost, and time .

Unless there is another good reason to use them (and enjambres apparently has one here), staples or nails, are all that is needed. The box will outlive the beekeeper, and probably three more generations. As a general rule, box failures are not the result of nails, screws, or staples.

cchoganjr


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## Sour Kraut (Jun 17, 2012)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> With a good glue, screws are a gross overkill, not to mention the added cost, and time .
> 
> Unless there is another good reason to use them (and enjambres apparently has one here), staples or nails, are all that is needed. The box will outlive the beekeeper, and probably three more generations. As a general rule, box failures are not the result of nails, screws, or staples.
> 
> cchoganjr


In your opinion..............


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

In my opinion, lack of proper surface protection and the subesquent rot causes most hive woodenware failures.

Nancy, to heck with this screw vs. nail nonsense, go all Tim the Tool Man Taylor on them and get a pneumatic nailgun.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

> In your opinion..............


 I'm with Mr Hogan and JW; Titebond III, a few nails to hold everything in place while the glue dries and a smear of paint will have most of my boxes outliving me for joint failure.

I find the major source of failure is the hive tool crushing the corners.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

enjambres said:


> I'm using 7/8ths inch, box-jointed Betterbee boxes, with pre-drilled holes.


Are the predrilled holes just in the box joint tabs, or are they also drilled into the end grain of the mating piece? If the holes aren't predrilled in both pieces then predrill and countersink or you'll split the piece where the screw is going into end grain. I'd hate to see that happen.

Predrilled hole at the correct diameter will hold better than one that is not. When you drive the screw into a predrilled hole the screw threads cut a continuous spiral into the wood. When you drive a screw in without predrilling wood is crushed and pushed out of the way to make room for the screw shaft resulting in non-continuous thread engagement. Wood is also cracked and split, even if the splits don't come all the way to the surface, they are still there, leaving interior gaps in the thread gripping surface.

Drill the shank clearance hole. If the screw doesn't have a shank, drill thread clearance for the top of the screw. This is a step a lot of people skip. But you want the screw to clamp the board down and top thread digging in here can actually separate the joint instead of securing it and prevent you from tightening the joint before the screw shears wood fibers in the end grain lower down. Some of the more expensive screws like the Kreg self drilling screws linked earlier have a smaller diameter shank that was engineered so you can skip the clearance hole drilling step.

You can buy a drill bit that will drill the pilot hole, the shank clearance hole, and the countersink all at once at most home centers.

Be careful to not over-tighten the screws. Since your threads are biting into end grain it is very easy to shear the wood fibers, leaving you with a screw hole that is good for nothing.

When screwing into end grain I place a small amount glue in the predrilled hole. The screw will push it into the wood fibers and when cured it will add some reinforcement to the fibers that were cut by the threads.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

I have been using screws to assemble my boxes. 

The boxes from Mann lake come with the ear pre drilled, but I also run a drill bit thru the predrilled hole into the board a ways to keep it splitting. If I am using flat head screws I also drill a countersink to reduce the occurrence of the head causing the ear to crack. 

I typically use 3 cordless drills when woodworking. 1 with a driver, 1 with a drill bit, and 1 with a countersink bit. It is much faster for me to switch between multiple drills than to change out bits. I have 3 drills because a drill with 2 batteries and a charger was like $5 more than 2 batteries, and I have done this twice when I wanted more batteries.

I have glued some boxes and not others. I will see what happens to the boxes without glue in the long run.

I picked up 80+ lbs of deck screws and another 20+ lb of random hardware at an auction for $10 (or 15, don't remember) so I am not going to run out any time soon. :thumbsup:


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I've always used screws with 100% waterproof glue when building boxes - with the majority of these being butt-jointed. The main strength of the joint comes from the glue - with the screws providing additional bonus strength. The beauty of using screws is that they remove any need for sash-clamps, so I can build multiple boxes at the same time. I aim for 1" of screw 'grip' across the grain, with 1.5" when screwing into end-grain.
LJ


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## Sour Kraut (Jun 17, 2012)

JConnolly said:


> Are the predrilled holes just in the box joint tabs, or are they also drilled into the end grain of the mating piece? If the holes aren't predrilled in both pieces then predrill and countersink or you'll split the piece where the screw is going into end grain. I'd hate to see that happen.
> 
> View attachment 42757


I haven't seen it happening in the couple of hundred boxes I've put together with screws...........without drilling into the end grain of the second piece.

Occasionally a screw will hit the remains of a knot and go a bit sideways and come out inside the box...just back it out, re-drill the pilot-countersink to give it a good start in the right direction, and it is fine after that.


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

I use screws for our NUCs, both solid wood or Advantech, pre-drilling and countersinking so the heads are flush. (rabbit joints) With the pre-drilled holes in the Better Bee boxes you mention, a nice SS or coated pan-head screw that's sized correctly will work just fine. And like you, I avoid "manual nailing" of anything when I can avoid it because of joint pain and have for decades. I tend to use 15 gage finish nails from a pneumatic nailer for the regular medium boxes we buy from Mann Lake knock-down, even though they are pre-drilled for nails, too. I just shoot them where the hole isn't. These are box joints so the fasteners are more to lock things together rather than provide a lot of strength over glue.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Sour Kraut said:


> In your opinion..............


Isn't that what enjambres is asking for here on this forum????? Beekeepers opinions????? Beekeepers experience?????

You are correct, that is just my opinion. Take it for what it is worth. Feel free to totally disregard.

cchoganjr


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

I like the 18 guage narrow crown staples. They can be up to 2", but not all staplers will use those. 1 3/4" is common and works fine. 1" will do frames nicely. They will work on a small compressor.
They are a good time saver, also effortless.
Screws are much slower and prone to splitting the finger joints. They work well.


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## 123989 (Jul 30, 2018)

I swear you would think we were going to support houses with these boxes.
I use 8 or 9 x 2 1/2 torx head screws. No glue no predrilling and they do just fine. No splitting no cracks and I just use regular screws they are not coated or anything. I do put 3 coats of paint on the boxes though. There is not going to be that much stress on the boxes so for me it is all that is needed.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

If you butt-joint, as I do, then both screws and glue become important. If I could get away without using either, then I would - and save money. Likewise the use of paint - I'd love to eliminate the expense of painting and subsequent maintenance. Putting hives under cover out of the weather is probably the best way of achieving this - I have a few ideas of suitable structures, but can't find enough time to put them into practice ... 
LJ


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

No shortage of advice here Nancy, but, I'm wondering if you would reconsider the obvious and buy your equipment preassembled next time? Shastina Millworks has a good price on assembled and painted equipment and they deliver for free too. 

For those remaining six unassembled boxes, would someone in your local bee Club assist you? Six boxes would take a few minutes for a competent assembler with a jig.


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## kevvan (Oct 4, 2011)

I use TRIM HEAD SCREWS for building my boxes. They are thinner and cost generally the same amount as a drywall screw when you get into more volume. 

- They are the right size to go into pre-drilled holes from manufacturers
- You can paint the boxes and most times down the road still use the square head bit to get the screw out - which I've done successfully on several occasions.
- I have never experienced wood splitting while driving a screw.
- Over years of use boxes never loosen up and the screws have never shown any signs of rust on the heads.

This is what I purchase from Home Depot
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbil...Trim-Screw-1-lb-Box-267-Pack-116032/205142850
#6 1-5/8 in. Square Bugle-Head Sharp Point Trim Screw 

I typically buy a multi-pound box and find them useful for more than just hive manufacture.

https://youtu.be/un0gpqOIdgc 
*Alternate Hive Box Building - No Glue, Screws*
Note: For this video I had a different screw left over that someone gave me. Only a small handful of my hives used the gold ones shown in this video. Almost all of my other hives use the trim screw linked above.




Kevin Inglin
The Beekeeper's Corner Podcast
www.bkcorner.org


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