# Covering a Contract with Packages



## nabeehive (Oct 23, 2009)

Will he be needing any new woodenware? If so let me know.

Michael


----------



## Ted (Feb 20, 2000)

I would think if you were to make 2/3 frame splits with a frame of honey and maybe some pollen then dump a lb pkg with Queen I would bet that nuk would hit the road running.
You may half to feed as March 15th is a little Early for much of a nectar flow I'm about 2/3 hrs south of you and the swamp is just getting started Good Luck !!!!!


----------



## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

You gotta love it. Contracts for pollination but doesn't have the bees. 
Why not just contact the guy that's been doing it in the past maybe you can just get him to do the job and pocket a commission. inch:


----------



## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

FL nucs?


----------



## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

need to have 2-4 weeks to get them fed up, get their numbers up,

It will take a package 8 weeks to come up to pollination strength.
What is the frame count for the pollination contract?
What is the payment per hive and when do you get paid?
Good luck.
Ernie


----------



## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

I believe I heard it was 350+ hives. Fatbeeman told me the other day that pkgs aren't the way to go, unless you have loads of drawn comb and brood frames. I know they want them in the field by march 15th.


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

It always surprises me when growers sign with guys who don't have the bees. If I'm a grower I think the question "Do you have the bess?" would be asked. If not , something like" Do you have access to bees (as in broker) if you don't have the bees. As a beekeeper this is a best case scenario for premature aging. The guy probably signed and will have to deliver, empty boxes won't do. I think Horace Bell sells singles in lots of 100. I believe his ad says $100 each. Seems reasonably priced for new equipment with bees, especially for those who sign contracts without having the bees.

Jean-Marc


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

There are a few reasons for signing a pollinator that doesn't yet have the number of bees to do the job.

One is they believe in supporting local business. If that means taking a leap of faith in one of your townfolk who want to step up to the challenge, it can be a benefit to the whole community in the long run. You need the pollination, he needs the opportunity and cash influx to build up to servicing size.

Or, just a bunch of desperate people hoping like heck they can pull it all together.

Big Bear


----------



## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Well let me jump in and explain a couple of things, even though the original thread was started to find out how far south one would have to go in order to get package bees that would be ready to sell by Feb 15th, guess I'm not gonna find that out. 

But let me first say that the young beek has a 400 hive contract - lets say he needs 100 hives to fulfil this contract - what is he going to do - well as a last resort - ask one of the big beeks - some with 2000 hives - to fill out the 100. I really don't think it will cause his hair to turn gray. This is a very small community - everyone knows everyone - I certainly know the Blueberry farmer where the hives are going and he certainly knows the young beek. No one is trying to hood wink anyone - I did not mean to make the Blueberries sound like Almonds, there is not that much money in pollinating BB. Just wanted to know how far south he would have to go. I must have phrased this question all wrong.


----------



## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

I think that anyone who secures a contract before putting out the cash for bees, sounds like a pretty shrewd business man.


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

apologies, I contributed to the wandering myself. I don't buy bees, so I am unable to help at all in that area.

My best guess would be that southern california , Texas or about those parts should be sufficient to get earliest packages

Big Bear


----------



## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

jean-marc said:


> I think Horace Bell sells singles in lots of 100. I believe his ad says $100 each.


What do you mean singles? Single frame nucs?


----------



## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Singles means single 10 frame brood boxes with bees and queens!


----------



## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

For an answer to the original question-Where to get packages by Feb. 15th? Australia! The better scenario would be to get overwintered nucs or singles out of FL, CA, or TX.


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

snip...
Surely he would need to have 2-4 weeks to get them fed up, get their numbers up, and get them hived before putting them in the fields.

tecmseh:
to REINFORCE what ernie/b4u suggested alter this time slot to 8 weeks and work your pencil calcualtion backwards. 

this would suggest that given the date for setting down hives capable of pollinating anything that you likely have one source of packages that MIGHT fulfill your contractial needs and that is Australia.

I can assure you NO packages will be available in Texas at this time of the year. Casually sounds a bit too early for anything available in Florida (if you still are talking about packages) and almost every hive in California will be tied down to some almond pollination contract.

ps... according to at least one firm that imports Australian Packages most are purchased to fulfill the contractial requirements when the beekeeper fall shorts of what he promised in a pollination contract. it is in short a means to avoid being sued for failure to perform.


----------



## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

jean-marc said:


> It always surprises me when growers sign with guys who don't have the bees. If I'm a grower I think the question "Do you have the bess?" would be asked. If not , something like" Do you have access to bees (as in broker) if you don't have the bees. As a beekeeper this is a best case scenario for premature aging. The guy probably signed and will have to deliver, empty boxes won't do. I think Horace Bell sells singles in lots of 100. I believe his ad says $100 each. Seems reasonably priced for new equipment with bees, especially for those who sign contracts without having the bees.
> 
> Jean-Marc


What's some contact info for horace? Got a track record anybody wants to attest to. I know a local guy bought 1000 at 100 per early last year from somebody down in FL.


----------



## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Skinner Apiaries said:


> What's some contact info for horace? Got a track record anybody wants to attest to..


Horace has been running a ad in ABJ. If you go this route, inspect the bees carefully! I heard of a beek that purchased singles from this source to fulfill his pollination contracts and the bees were not good( heavy, heavy mite load.


----------



## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

We would requeen anything we got on scale anyway. Local guy that got em had 30% losses. But he probably starved them. I presume when someone won't tell me how they died its beek error. (Or foulbrood) keep those flame throwers away!


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

123456:

I don't think anybody is being shrewd by promising things they yet don't have. Sounds more like inexperience to me. It's more reasonnable to have 20 % extra hives than you need than 20 % short for the contract. I agree with Tecumseh in that I've never seen an ad for paclages in Dec or Jan nor Feb. I seem to recall packages available from Mid march on.

So it's back to buying out hives or pacs from Australia. Purchase from the neighbour in my advice. If there are mite issues treat, at some point it's innevitable. If they are light feed.

I don't really understand how sideliners make a go. I'm assuming this guy will get 1 contract for blueberries, all his hives and perhaps a few hives on a second job. It's a 50 -60 pound area (long term average, this is a guess ) so how does he do it? He peddles the honey? That'll work but it's not really beekeeping in the sense that you don't need beehives to peddle honey.

Jean-Marc


----------



## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Jean-Marc :

So how does a young beek get started in BC? It is sometimes difficult to find a contract that exactly fits your resources - maybe your resources should include what you are capable of fulfilling - if not pay the consequences.

Do you think pollinators in this area of the country are wasting their time? What would the Blue berry farmers do without them? Actually most do not just pollinate BB's, but follow that with melons. I do not know any that "peddle" honey. It appears to me that most of the BB guys need to pay more per hive than they currently are (50-60) - I say that because I know that BB's have been very profitable in the last few years - one only has to take a look at some of the houses these guys are building in this area to conclude that these guys are not living like normal farmers.


----------



## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

I don't know anyone with 10+ barrels that peddles. I do know a few that sell out the front door to keep the pesky ones away, and they have anywhere from 500 up. Ask ed in albermarle he's done that for years. But that's off topic. If pollination pays for bees then in accounting we note that there Is value in bees as capital.


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Young guys in BC start with a few then build up the numbers. Most hit various roadblocks to growth and stay at a smaller level. The odd one doesn't know how to quit and keeps at it and makes it, sorta kinda. I agree that it's difficult to match contracts with resources especially when starting out. Usually everything goes back into the business and there no backup money in case of a high winter loss. One disaster can set a starting beekeeper way back.

Good to know that guys also get melons. As far as guys wasting their time, they have to decide that for themselves. Unfortunately it's probably the only game in town at that time of year, so the options are limited. Do I think guys need more money for the services they provide? Yes. Could BB growers afford to pay more in the last few years? Yes. Things have changed in that industry. Prices have dropped dramatically for the fruit. They readjusted upwards late in the season here. It's not what it used to be. The part that is hard for me to wrap my head around is that 15 years ago when I started I think that pollination price was 40-50 per hive. Could be wrong here but that's my recollection. All the input costs have risen dramatically,think fuel, labour sugar , queens , packages, boxes, frames etc. so profits must have dropped. I think that other than almonds pollination all other pollination service is pretty cheap in the USA.

Jean-Marc


----------



## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Jean-Marc 

I am fairly ignorant about what gets pollinated in BC - would you fill me in? BC is one of several Provinces I have yet to visit, but certainly would love to. I was thinking that BC pollinators might go over into Manitoba or Saskatchwan, but then maybe there are plenty of crops to pollinate in BC.... don't know. Southern blueberries (Rabbitseye) are bringing $3.50-$3.95 a pound in the stores here, these are quite different than the big northern blueberries I suspect you are talking about. I think they are following a curve similar to the Almond guys, which means the BB farmers are really underpaying the pollinators in this area.


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I think 12 000 hives are used on blueberries. About 4 times more should be used but... Some raspberry growers use bees, not too much. Prices paid to the farmers is low. They would benefit from pollination but.... They other big crop are cranberries here. Maybe 5000 hives or so. 4-5 hours drive from here is the Okanagan. Larger fruit are grown there, apples , peaches , nectarines ,cherries, pears. I'm kinda guessing but maybe4-5000 hives are used for 2 sets. It really is not a big industry here.

Some hives from here make it to Alberta for pollination and honey production. None to Saskatchewan. A sent a few to Manitoba this year. That was a first for us. It's kinda far 26 hours by truck.

The stores may get top dollar for their product , doesn't mean the farmer does. Although I agree that other than this year the last 10 years have been good to blueberry guys some of those years have been very very good. Actually I've seen specials in sotres where the price paid to the store is less than what the grower gets. Go figure. It's a promotion thing to get customers in the store. Purchase $5.00 of blueberries and $200.00 of other groceries.

Jean-Marc


----------



## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Good info - thanks. 12000 hives in the BB means about 8000 acres of BB around here - that is about what we have in this county We sit 1.5 hives per acre - probably should be 2 per acre.


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_We sit 1.5 hives per acre - probably should be 2 per acre. _

I've heard 2-4 hives per acre on blueberries. Bees don't really like blueberries - cram enough bees in a small area and they don't have a choice but to work the blueberries. IIRC, blueberry pollen is an incomplete protein.

I think most of the people in pollination started out as honey producers, and once they had a high enough hive number they could branch out into pollination.


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

short story... take from it what you wish.

a couple of years ago when my numbers had grown to some undefined point I though pollination of melons would be an opportunity to set down some hives and collect a small check at a time of year when there was little going for 'the girls' elsewhere. then I began to watch one or two mellon growers locally who either rent or own bees and I began to notice this disturbing trend that over the melon season about 50% of the bee hives would effectively become deadoout (based upon the empty slots on a four way pallet).

add to this (see jean marc prior comments) that the price of pollination of melons or blue barries is about the same price it was 15 years ago. then calculate the 'real value' of the dollar in regards to the rental $ generated and it is very obvious to moi that many pollination contracts are let without regards to the profit generated. they evidently do generate a bit of liquidity at a time of the year when no money is coming in..

for myself I decided that it was easier to take off a few bees (make or buy a few queens) just ahead of the pollination season and sell these rather than let a perfectly good hive die in some melon patch for a check that will barely cover my fuel expenses.


----------



## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

short story... take from it what you wish.

Very well stated!
I know a queen breeder in northern California that refuses to pollinate any of the vine crops!

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

Anybody got some solid contact info for spells or Horace? I don't need the company info for the answering machines that don't get checked. I talked to a fella here with 3k hives, he says I gotta drive down there and start beating down doors. Opinions? Phone numbers? Somebody with 100 hives on the eastern seaboard they want to sell? I thought about trying to get up with Andy Card's people...


----------



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Horace Bell Honey
1058 S.Ridgewood Ave.
Deland, FL 32720
(386)734-7798


----------



## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

I appreciate it. I google'd that before and that's pretty much what I had to go on... Like spells, they seem to not return calls. I dont even know why these people have these phones. Some woman at the old spell's Number across the street from where the operation is set up (Old man Spell's wife?) says there are beeks there 5-6 days a week at the office at 7AM. And yet none of them answers the phone... Blah. Maybe they're all hiding from the IRS...


----------



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

At one time Horace was one of the largest beekeepers (40,000 plus colonies)in the US, he retired but got back into it somewhat. Last time I called it took a few days to get a return call. I do know based on conversations with other area Beeks he is still in business and does have hives for sale. I will make a few calls and see if I can get a better contact number or info.


----------



## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

I appreciate it. I read some stuff about him, I was sure he was still in it in one way or another considering that ad in American Bee Journal. What sort of message did you leave. All I left was that I was interested in one of his 100 hive blocks, and my contact info.. never heard back...


----------



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

I was interested in purchasing some bees (less than 100/ 20-50) wanted to know a price. Did get a return phone call but opted to go another direction. I will let you know.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

hpm08161947 said:


> Just wondering if anyone had any ideas....


Yeah, have him contact me and maybe I could supply him w/ some colonies from SC.
Where is he supposed to pollinate? White Creek?


----------



## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

sqkcrk,
I know you talked to hpm about it, I guess we'll have to come down there and check out your operation sometime.


----------



## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

This is just my opinion and probably worthless at that, but I think if I were your friend, I would figure out how many hives I knew I could count on, then figure out the difference and call in another beekeeper to cover the difference. Everybody wins that way, and he probably won't end up with a grower that's unhappy with how little pollination the package bees did, and that helps to keep the contract in the future (not to mention, growers talk to each other, and whether you're doing a lousy or exceptional job, word will get around one way or another).


----------



## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

btw ftw, Horace has gone to 150 per. Pollination prices aren't going up not that I've heard. Beautiful.


----------



## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

Just for fun I typed the address that is posted above for Horace Bell into Google Earth and looked at the satellite photo (I think it's satellite, may be aerial from a plane). Wow. That's a lot of hive bodies stacked on that property.


----------



## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

you might be a commercial beek if, we can see your hives from space. lmao


----------



## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

29° 1'16.76"N
81°20'17.00"W

THAT is a Nuc yard.


----------



## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

Skinner Apiaries said:


> 29° 1'16.76"N
> 81°20'17.00"W
> 
> THAT is a Nuc yard.



Sheesh. That thing must have it's own zip code.


----------



## Missoura (Feb 12, 2009)

I spoke with Horace Bell a couple weeks ago by phone. Horace said he had 10.000 to 13,000 singles ready to go now. I spent time earlier in the year at his place going through the hives for sale. 

All new equipment with new queens. Strong singles.

I have been very satisfied with our business dealings through the years.

Horace, his office manager and the crew are working hives usually six days a week so you talk to the answering machine.

I never have a problem getting a call back when I call and leave a message.


----------



## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

Skinner Apiaries said:


> 29° 1'16.76"N
> 81°20'17.00"W
> 
> THAT is a Nuc yard.


I have tried to find this, maybe I am doing something wrong, could anyone that found this post a link please?


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Copy and paste the coordinates into Google Earth. It takes you right there. It's near the east coast of Florida.


----------



## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

Ok Joe, I am not sure what to pick to paste the location. Oh I have never use google earth before 
do I have to download something for it to show me? Help a Dummy out man!! where is it on the page below I am suppose to paste anything?

http://earth.google.com/


----------



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Google maps on the internet, says its union cemetery.


----------



## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

KQ6AR said:


> Google maps on the internet, says its union cemetery.


use the address- Horace Bell Honey
1058 S.Ridgewood Ave.
Deland, FL 32720
(386)734-7798
:doh: RDY-B


----------



## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

RDY-B said:


> use the address- Horace Bell Honey
> 1058 S.Ridgewood Ave.
> Deland, FL 32720
> (386)734-7798
> :doh: RDY-B


I got it!! using the address works but shows no bee yard


the co ordinance below is a cemetery, not a nuc yard, I think somebody was Kidding around  
29° 1'16.76"N
81°20'17.00"W


----------



## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

http://maps.google.com/maps?client=safari&rls=en&q=1058 s ridgewood ave deland fl 

zoom in and look around see the fourway pallets and see the mating nucs follow the dirt road around back see-it is burn day and theres a fire -wonder what there burning- RDY-B

point click and drag the image you can navigate -close up -(ROGER THAT )


----------



## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

Ok, so its a graveyard my bad. I'm not used to those high water table graves, nor did I zoom way in and see the width of the tire tracks was less than the white objects. obviously they aren't 8 foot long nucs... my bad.


----------



## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

I was looking at the google map at all the beekeepers list in the bee's for sale section on the home page and noticed something I never knew, it seems the B weaver and R weaver are neighbors, I always knew they were kin folk but never knew they lived next to each other. at lest thats what the map says.


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

twt writes:
the B weaver and R weaver are neighbors, I always knew they were kin folk

tecumseh:
I think they are distant cousins, but yes their texas base is located on what appears to be a common 4 to 5 acre site. I think??? this site was one that was originally set up by Roy Weaver a real beeman's beeman who died long ago.

morris weaver (I think??? a cousin to beneford) had a location much closer to Navasota, Tx (I use to deliver bulk bee there long long ago).

at one time I referred to the various weavers in navasota as... the good, the bad, and the ugly weavers.


----------



## Missoura (Feb 12, 2009)

Google earth is 6 months behind and not today. The fire is the last of the burning of over a few million frames.
The neighbors have been trying to shut Bell Honey down for years. So what you see is the tip of the iceberg.
The hives are not nucs but singles and are part of the everyday spliting and making up of hives.
Holding yards around the state hold the hives for sale. The largest holding yard contains around 1700 hives and the smallest around 600.


----------



## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

So those massive piles were all burned gear? *insert expletive here*


----------

