# Make ethanol out of honey



## high rate of speed

With the global market and rising fuel cost.Why cant a person produce ethanol from honey?


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## BigDaddyDS

(I have a feeling that this topic should really be in Tailgater! Or, perhaps will soon be...)

Making fuel out of food is a bad proposition for everyone.

It doesn't lower the cost of fuel, but it DOES raise the cost of food. This is evidenced by the price of corn, even in markets outside of the US. 

But to answer your question directly, honey CAN be converted into fuel. It would require honey to be converted from a product that sells for, say, $35 dollars a gallon on average. Then fermented, which would make a honey mead, which would sell for about $100 a gallon, give or take. Then you'd have to USE a FUEL to distill it into a higher alcohol content product. All to make a $4 a gallon fuel to burn in your car.

Not to mention, inadvertently you've caused a shortage of honey (by one gallon, in this example), which raises the price of honey for everyone buying it. Whoops!

The economics just aren't there. At least not SMART economics. 

Which is why corn ethanol is a bad idea too.

DS (By the way, the view from up here on top of the soapbox is incredible!)


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## high rate of speed

BigDaddyDS said:


> (I have a feeling that this topic should really be in Tailgater! Or, perhaps will soon be...)
> 
> 
> Hey Big DaddyDS,thanks for the post.Last time I checked Tailgator was for all none related bee topics,and this topic is about HONEY.


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## George Fergusson

BigDaddyDS said:


> (I have a feeling that this topic should really be in Tailgater! Or, perhaps will soon be...)


Agreed.

For the sake of argument BD, I'll submit that making ethanol out of honey makes perfect sense. Of course, I'm speculating wildly as I haven't run the numbers.

At first glance, there's a whole lot more potential energy in a pound of honey than there is in a pound of corn so the production costs of ethanol made from honey can't be directly compared to those using corn as a source of starch.

Second, honey isn't a staple food like corn, rice, or soybeans. People don't need honey to survive.



BigDaddyDS said:


> But to answer your question directly, honey CAN be converted into fuel. It would require honey to be converted from a product that sells for, say, $35 dollars a gallon on average. Then fermented, which would make a honey mead, which would sell for about $100 a gallon, give or take. Then you'd have to USE a FUEL to distill it into a higher alcohol content product. All to make a $4 a gallon fuel to burn in your car.


You're suggesting that a gallon of honey would make a gallon of fuel? I wonder how much 200 proof ethanol a gallon of honey really would make?



BigDaddyDS said:


> Not to mention, inadvertently you've caused a shortage of honey (by one gallon, in this example), which raises the price of honey for everyone buying it. Whoops!


This would be bad how? The current wholesale price of honey is somewhere around $1.00 per pound. The beekeeping industry would benefit greatly from a higher price for honey.



BigDaddyDS said:


> DS (By the way, the view from up here on top of the soapbox is incredible!)


I agree!


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## stangardener

a group of people always bring up corn and trying to fill the bottomless gas tanks of the whole country when ever ethanol comes up. i don't care about the whole country and corn is not the only product to make alchohol from. i like the idea of using whats local and can be produced in my own back yard.


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## high rate of speed

My thought was to buy all of the overseas honey for the purpose of fuel,wich would drive the price up for honey here in the states.


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## drobbins

umm,

shouldn't this thread be in the mead making forum?

Dave


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## high rate of speed

Mead making,we are not planning on drinking the stuff.


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## George Fergusson

high rate of speed said:


> Mead making,we are not planning on drinking the stuff.


Ethanol is highly drinkable until they denature it by mixing in some gasoline. One has to wonder if a wee portion of ethanol production doesn't get siphoned off prior to getting diluted with poison..


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## Swobee

My simple answer is that don't believe we have enough of a honey glut to use the product economically for ethanol production. I do like the idea of turning imported, potentially harmful honey into something other than food! Might be a better use than food for a lot of the imported stuff! It's barely economical to turn corn and other crops into ethanol, let alone a costly commodity like honey. The energy required to turn the crops into ethanol is incredible.


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## ScadsOBees

high rate of speed said:


> Mead making,we are not planning on drinking the stuff.


It is still worth far more in a wine bottle than in a gas tank. Lets hope that don't change!!!


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## drobbins

I wasn't really suggesting you drink it, only joking
the point is if you take a gallon of honey and make five gallons of mead it will be something like 10% alcohol
distill that down to pure ethanol you get about a half gallon
so a gallon in a half gallon out
put in two 55 gallon drums of honey get one out
two drums of honey used to be about $1200, maybe more now, the price has gone up
mine costs WAY more because I don't wholesale it
so $1200 for a barrel of honey-ethanol
oil may be $125 a barrel but I know what I'd be putting in my car
did I mention oil has a lot more energy in it per gallon than ethanol?
it just doesn't make business sense
of course neither does corn ethanol
maybe we could get an energy subsidy
then we could become dependent on government handouts 
maybe I am suggesting you drink it

Dave


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## George Fergusson

drobbins said:


> I wasn't really suggesting you drink it, only joking
> the point is if you take a gallon of honey and make five gallons of mead it will be something like 10% alcohol


But the percentage of alcohol in a fermenting liquid is limited by how much alcohol the yeast can tolerate. Champagne yeast can tolerate as much as 13% alcohol or so, maybe a touch higher. Eventually, the yeast pollutes it's environment and dies long before all the sugar is used up. Mead still has a lot of sugar left in it 

So the question is, how much ethanol could be made from a pound of honey if ALL the sugar was converted to alcohol?


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## drobbins

George

I'm no expert but I believe that if you use something like champagne yeast (with a high alcohol tolerance) and only use a gallon of honey (you usually use more) the mead will finish very dry with very little residual sugar
it will also be only about 10% since you skimped on the honey
this is what I shoot for in my mead (dry, not 10%)
there are some unfermentable sugars left but they are, umm, unfermentable
maybe you can throw some cellulosic enzyme voodoo at it
bottom line, it ain't gonna work money wise

Dave

edit [champagne yeast goes much higher than 13%]


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## cow pollinater

I had the same question (honey as ethanol) and brought it up during a tailgaiter post but we were to busy arguing the worlds problems to actually solve a problem.
From my homebrewing days(way back when I had spare time) I remember that honey is an addative. I used to throw in a pound of honey to boost fermentation without adding lots of flavor. Honey will ferment almost completly when it is dilluted so that the yeast can handle it. I don't at all see why the ethanol industry couldn't do the same as in throw a bunch of honey in WITH the corn.

Also, I would argue that the dollar amounts figured to date in this area are incorrect as they are based on current honey prices without government intervention. IF they jump on honey as they did with corn, then things may look a little different.


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## George Fergusson

> The theoretical yield of ethanol from sucrose is 163 gallons of ethanol per ton of sucrose. Factoring in maximum obtainable yield and realistic plant operations, the expected actual recovery would be about 141 gallons per ton of sucrose. Using 2003-05 U.S. average sugar recovery rates, one ton of sugarcane would be expected to yield 19.5 gallons of ethanol and one ton of sugar beets would be expected to yield 24.8 gallons of ethanol. One ton of molasses, a byproduct of sugarcane and sugar beet processing, would yield about 69.4 gallons of ethanol. Using raw sugar as a feedstock, one ton would yield 135.4 gallons of ethanol while refined sugar would yield 141.0 gallons.
> 
> http://www.usda.gov/oce/EthanolSugarFeasibilityReport3.pdf


Now I suppose the next question is, how much of the sugar in honey is fermentable? I think the actual sucrose content of honey is rather low...


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## drobbins

>> The theoretical yield of ethanol from sucrose is 163 gallons of ethanol per ton of sucrose.

you're still getting something on the order of half the mass of ethanol out of the sucrose you put in
thats with pure sucrose
why discuss honey which would be less efficient, it's 18% water and what's left isn't all fermentable
[edit] we're totally leaving out the energy inputs required for any of these processes
we should eat food and use something else for energy

Dave


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## George Fergusson

drobbins said:


> why discuss honey which would be less efficient, it's 18% water and what's left isn't all fermentable


I have to conclude after initial investigation that making ethanol out of honey is a bad idea.


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## John Smith

*Why not bio-diesel from Beeswax?*

Yes, there is still the lovely wax for you guys to fuel your hummers with! And how much energy is lost when slumgum is burned?

But back to the Honey, it certainly could appeal to the World Health Organisation to outlaw honey for food and commence making gas with it! ............Particularly if the honey could be produced somewhere else than in their neighbourhoods.

The World Health Organisation does not like honey, as it is far too cheap and easily accessed as a medicine. 

Cheers,

John


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## AllFloridaBee

*hey, i was thinking of the biodiesel angle just today*

I get a few hundred pounds a week of combs from doing removals and was just wondering today what the viability of making biodiesel would be. All that wax, honey, brood and bees might go to a better use than compost. Well, i do render the wax


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## Hambone

high rate of speed said:


> My thought was to buy all of the overseas honey for the purpose of fuel,wich would drive the price up for honey here in the states.


I like that.

Ethanol is the biggest waste of time. Right now it takes 2 gallons of oil to make 1 gallon of ethanol. It will be a thing of the past. Wind, Solar, true natural resources is the way to go. Research T. Boone Pickens, R.F.K. Jr.. If you/we were to be carbon free, you might have some of the best honey you will ever have. 

And Im no tree huger. Im the A-hole that has a truck and s suv. But slowly trying to switch to green.


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## Flewster

Bringing this out of retirement.........I am not a conspiracy theorist but can see a sever economic downturn coming if we don't do something quick. So Since I have antique tractors and equipment I have been thinking of a way to keep farming for food and barter and know my tractor can run on 100% ethanol. That being said making it out of corn involves mashing, straining then fermenting then distilling. Where if I used my honey I could just ferment then distill it for my ethanol. With that being said I would need around 100 gallons of fuel for what I want to do each year on my land. That would equal about 23 hives producing 60 lb each. that is a lot of good honey but in a real bad situation it would be doable. Yes it does not make economic sense now but in a bad time it would be an easy way to get the fuel you need to heat, light and cook as well as use for barter and, well, get drunk with......Every one will probably berate me for saying this but it makes sense to me in a tough situation to use what is on hand to make fuel and honey would be my first choice.


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## The Honey Householder

You know why it is E85. Other wise you could drink and drive on the same tank.


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## crofter

The good old Irish Potato is likely a much better bet for convertible sugar and starch. On a ton per acre basis it may be better than corn and a heck of a lot easier than honey. My ancestors were kind of handy at it but they didnt have any tractors to put it in but they found a work around  Curses of monoculture; that potato blight >1850AD sure changed their plans!


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## Flewster

crofter said:


> The good old Irish Potato is likely a much better bet for convertible sugar and starch. On a ton per acre basis it may be better than corn and a heck of a lot easier than honey. My ancestors were kind of handy at it but they didnt have any tractors to put it in but they found a work around  Curses of monoculture; that potato blight >1850AD sure changed their plans!


I do know that potatoes are more efficient in terms of total output. But that involves mashing and malting and other things to get the starches to sugar and then convert to alcohol. What I would like to do is if the shoot ever hit the fan and we needed to be self sufficient then honey would be a viable option for the making of ethanol. And of course honey is great for preserving food, medical purposes, cooking and a multiple of other things to barter with it. It has a good conversion factor when considered it takes over 220# of corn to get 5 gallons of ethanol where 60 pounds of honey will get me approximately the same amount. Just me doing some thinking of what I will do if things really get bad.


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## Flewster

The Honey Householder said:


> You know why it is E85. Other wise you could drink and drive on the same tank.



that would be too much fun and you know us Americans can't be out there having fun when we need to earn money for the Govt.


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