# Mini nucs use in a small apiary?



## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Trying to figure out if they make sense for a 20 hive operation. Last year I started grafting and my limiting factor was how many brood frames I could steal for the mating nucs. As I love to build began cutting down some old frames, building new bottoms boards and now half way in I starting to think. When I have a 4 way mating nuc with solid dividers, how do I get the final product back into production hives? Queen castles I just drop frames back in.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

minz said:


> . When I have a 4 way mating nuc with solid dividers, how do I get the final product back into production hives?


I think the idea is you don´t. Just run and overwinter them as separate system like Brother Adam to evaluate your youngsters.

The other option is to build your mini frames in such a way they can be united back to fit your normal box.


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## beefarmer (May 2, 2010)

Minz, I have the same problem, also seems like the mini nucs look good today and in a couple days they are gone, queen and all bees. There is a little frame [holder] that can be made out of wire mesh or thin metal to hook over full size frames and have the edges of 2 minis set next to each other to fill in full size frame space, i did this to get hives to draw comb on the mini frames, N ext year i am going to try 2 frame mini nucs that use 2 deep frames, as i will be able to go directly into production hives. check out barnyard bees, mini nucs.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

After small tinkering trials of methods, just removing the queen has strong appeal, but that was not your question. A square tube saddle clamp hanger suspended between full frames works reasonable well. The main problem is the drop in critical mass going into the larger box. Pulling frames from other minis or building them up to 2 or 3 stories before the move seems to be the best cure. 

For an earlier, simpler move for my next tinker is making a box to hold the mini frames sideways and a nuc box above. Ripped 45 box adapters to fill the box to box gap are pretty simple to make, though square would work fine as well. The need to adapt is dependent on your mini frame size.


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## CBQueens (Sep 13, 2017)

Agree with beefarmer..... Next year I am creating mating nucs that take deep frames.


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## CBQueens (Sep 13, 2017)

minz said:


> Last year I started grafting and my limiting factor was how many brood frames I could steal for the mating nucs.


Minz, out of curiosity....

1. Were you trying to keep the mother colony population strong to support honey gathering? 

2. How did you know the "right" amount of brood to steal?

3. Did you provide supplemental feeding syrup?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I used this: https://www.mannlakeltd.com/double-mating-nuc

This was my first year using these, and so far I am pleased. About 2 cups of bees on bare foundation, full feeder, and a caped cell and you're good to go. Of course start these as early as possible just before the main flow. I think my success rate was equal to, and possibly better than queen castles.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I made 2 frame deep mating nucs as a modified version of David's nucs. Each has a two frame medium "super" that is really a cover for the mason jar feeder. The bottom boards are solid but slide in a dado and there is screen underneath. This allows me to open the bottom a little for additional ventilation during the summer. Due to robbing this summer, none of my attemps in these nucs made it. Next year, each will get a mini robbing screen.

The mating nucs were left in the same yard as my other hives which explains the robbing.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

JWPalmer said:


> I made 2 frame deep mating nucs as a modified version of David's nucs. Each has a two frame medium "super" that is really a cover for the mason jar feeder. The bottom boards are solid but slide in a dado and there is screen underneath. This allows me to open the bottom a little for additional ventilation during the summer. Due to robbing this summer, none of my attemps in these nucs made it. Next year, each will get a mini robbing screen.
> 
> The mating nucs were left in the same yard as my other hives which explains the robbing.



If your system is to make the nucs every spring and re-unite them back every autumn this creates lots of work plus there is a risk of putting too little bees to some of them (bees are flying back to their mother colonies). In multi compartement designs there is a risk of leaks (bees, queen substance, air) creating poor mating results or fighting. 

If instead you overwinter the nucs it becomes much easier. All is ready in spring and they really explore! In my system they overwinter two story high. In spring they are usually 4 stories high before I split them to become mating units.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

I have been using half deep frames. For me I would'nt go smaller. I can still stick them in a normal hive end to end. Out of scrap I have made some five frame boxes.


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

We started queen rearing with abotu 20 colonies. I have pretty much always built three frame nucs with a feeder and a foundation in a 5 frame box. If mating is successful, they will often draw that foundation by the time you are ready to catch. If you have good mating, you should have enough extra brood to either build a few more nucs, or at least fix your duds. In the fall, I will combine them with weaker colonies or just combine the nucs together, or overwinter a few nucs. Thats the nice thing about using all the same size equipment. It makes combining and splitting and juggling simple. 
I make nucs a couple different ways. With good strong hives I want to do swarm control and hopefully make a honeycrop. Ill pull these back to 5-6 frames of brood in april/may and requeen. timing is different in the willamette valley though so you'll have to figure out what size to pull back to. So usually a good hive can donate 2-5 frames of brood without hurting much. 
The other way is to break apart a hive into as many nucs as possible. This is incredibly fast and efficient. Set up your nucs and sort. Frame of honey, two frames of brood.... Until the original hive is gone and you have a pile of nucs in front of you. 

If you are interested in minis... They are a lot of fun. Totally unnecessary in my opinion for a small outfit, but if you like to tinker and watn to learn about a different way to run bees, go for it. Think about what your system needs and build something that is easy to break apart and recombine. 
We use "crossboxes." They are really simple and easy. Essentially an 8 frame western with a rabbet on the long side instead of the short side, and frames cut short to run across the box the short way instead of the long way. There are two 3/8 dado's cut into the long side of the box to accommodate two 3/8 plywood dividers, dividing the box into three chambers. I also build simple Masonite and pine feeders which I slosh around with wax to seal. They hold about a quart, which is a nice amount for these small units. Each chamber holds three short frames and one feeder. A standard flat lid goes on top, and I build bottom boards with dividers. Three entrances on different sides of the box. 
The easiest way to draw these out is to remove the dividers, make a stack of two, shake a swarm and feed. When its all drawn out, break it up. Sort the brood and honey, place dividers, feed, and add queen cells. Wait, and hopefully go catch. Just like above, when you catch, pull your nucs back two two frames of brood and add a foundation. This way you can fix duds and make a few more nucs. In the fall, catch your last round of queens (we do it in mid-late august when I like to have spare queens on hand), pull the dividers, and stack them up three high (you need to leave one queen behind to keep the unit queenright), and feed. They typically overwinter very strong and ready to break apart next spring. 
If you have any empty crossboxes in the spring, you can put them in between the boxes of a good strong hive and the queen will lay it out and fill with bees. Then you can pull it out, divide it up, and stock with queen cells. I have also stocked them with a pint or so of bees and a cell but you do a lot better if you have some brood to hold them together. 

Heres some pictures to help make more sense.
https://www.facebook.com/ApricotApi...1834.441596002598092/1069103496514003/?type=3
https://www.facebook.com/ApricotApi...1834.441596002598092/1069103419847344/?type=3
https://www.facebook.com/ApricotApi...1845.441596002598092/1043826219041731/?type=3


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

ApricotApiaries said:


> In the fall, catch your last round of queens (we do it in mid-late august when I like to have spare queens on hand), pull the dividers, and stack them up three high (you need to leave one queen behind to keep the unit queenright), and feed. They typically overwinter very strong and ready to break apart next spring.
> If you have any empty crossboxes in the spring, you can put them in between the boxes of a good strong hive and the queen will lay it out and fill with bees. Then you can pull it out, divide it up, and stock with queen cells. I have also stocked them with a pint or so of bees and a cell but you do a lot better if you have some brood to hold them together.


Sounds easy and well thought system. 
What is the frame size ?


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

Its a western turned on its side. so whatever tat is. 6 1/4 x 13 or something like that


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Western?


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

Medium depth super 6 5/8.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Apricotapiaries,

Straightforward, simple explanation of two systems. Like the term crossbox. In an 8 framer you must be building a 13 1/8 long top bar frame? Thoughts on running 5 v 6 frame crossbox version? The frames I started with don't really fit a 5 or 6 frame well in a cross, but I make a simple frame any way so I just need to make a choice 5 or 6 nuc width to match crossbox.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

CBQueens said:


> Minz, out of curiosity....
> 
> 1. Were you trying to keep the mother colony population strong to support honey gathering?
> 
> ...


1	Yes and trying to raise queens, early in the year (when they want to swarm). Last year I ran the production hives down stealing mating frames and making up nucs to a point that I did not get honey. Our flow is blackberry in mid May- mid June. 
2	I would try to take one frame with bees and mixed brood for the queen cell and one partial honey frame
3	Not in spring, I do after blackberry. I do a hole in the lid with a soldered fitting in a mason jar (Randy Oliver method).


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

Saltybee said:


> In an 8 framer you must be building a 13 1/8 long top bar frame?


Sure, that sounds about right. To be perfectly honest, I measure it every time I build new frames. Two years ago I built 300 frames and last year I built 300 frames. I just measure it all out, get the saw setup and go for it. Its probably more like 13 even. 

I like 8 framers in part because I use 8 frame equipment. You can take a crossbox full of drawn comb (after you have it) and sandwhich it in a strong colony. The queen will go in there and lay it up. Its an easy way to restock empty crossboxes (they dont always combine perfectly in the fall). It would be tougher to do that with other size equipment. 
The other consideration is that I do some commercial pollination. 8 frame crossboxes fit in with the rest of my outfit and make a good pollinating unit. My queen rearing started with 20 colonies but I now run close to 300. I added crossboxes after a friend of mine showed them. I thought they were neat. AND I wanted to raise more queens faster in the spring, without breaking apart all my production colonies. In short I wanted some equipment dedicated to queen production. The way I have done it the last couple years, I combine crossboxes in the fall and stack them up. If they winter strong, I can rent them in almonds. After almonds I break them down and mate my first round of cells in CA before they come home. 

This year I tried something new which worked surprisingly well and worth sharing. After getting most of my outfit requeened, I stacked up my crossboxes two high, still divided in a three queen unit. I put a queen excluder on top, and two honey supers. The bees filled those supers pretty fast. Then after the main honey flow I broke them down again to raise our late summer queens. 

Lots of ways to juggle bees. Have fun.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

ApricotApiaries said:


> AND I wanted to raise more queens faster in the spring, without breaking apart all my production colonies. In short I wanted some equipment dedicated to queen production. The way I have done it the last couple years, I combine crossboxes in the fall and stack them up. If they winter strong, I can rent them in almonds. After almonds I break them down and mate my first round of cells in CA before they come home.
> 
> 
> Lots of ways to juggle bees. Have fun.


Exactly what I am looking to do!
Apricot, nice Facebook pages and wood work your ideas are right what I was looking for. I envy you even more at deer season! 
Building on deeps, I have had a pile of junk deep frames I have been pulling apart and making them into half frames. Building two bottom boards and converting two deeps into 4x as per the bee keepers workshop
http://www.michiganbees.org/beekeeping/in-the-beekeepers-workshop/?
My plan is to make about 40 of the ½ frames. Drop a box onto a couple production hives in the spring (32 frames). I am going into winter with just a menagerie of equipment configurations so will put everything I get through winter into double deep configurations and do clips for the remaining 8 frames. When I get about half drawn I will start grafting.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Maybe I don't have enough experience yet in using my bee equipment for raising queens. What is the
benefit of using those mini-frames vs. the standard full medium or full deep frame? When the air is warm
enough in the Spring time for queen rearing, I just up the newly emerged virgin in a 2 frame queen castle out of
a 10 frame deep hive box. The dividers should do the trick of separating the bees and queens.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

A note on mating nucs from Michael Bush:

In my opinion it makes the most sense to use standard frames for your mating nucs. Here are a few beekeepers who agree with that:

"Some queen-breeders use a very small hive with much smaller frames than their common ones for keeping their queens in till mated, but for several reasons I consider it best to have but the one frame in both the queen-rearing and the ordinary hives. In the first place, a nucleus colony can be formed in a few minutes from any hive by simply transferring two or three frames and the adhering bees from it to the nucleus hive. Then again, a nucleus colony can be built up at any time or united with another where the frames are all alike, with very little trouble. And lastly, we have only the one sized frames to make. I have always used a nucleus hive such as I have described, and would not care to use any other."--Isaac Hopkins, The Australasian Bee Manual 
​"for the honey-producer there seems no great advantage in baby nuclei. He generally needs to make some increase, and it is more convenient for him to use 2 or 3-frame nuclei for queen-rearing, and then build them up into full colonies...I use a full hive for each nucleus, merely putting 3 or 4 frames in one side of the hive, with a dummy beside them. To be sure, it takes more bees than to have three nuclei in one hive, but it is a good bit more convenient to build up into a full colony a nucleus that has the whole hive to itself."--C.C. Miller, Fifty Years Among the Bees 
​"The small Baby Nucleus hive had a run for a while but is now generally considered a mere passing fad. It is so small that the bees are put into an unnatural condition, and they therefore perform in an unnatural manner...I strongly advise a nucleus hive that will take the regular brood-frame that is used in your hives. The one that I use is a twin hive, each compartment large enough to hold two jumbo frames and a division-board."--Smith, Queen Rearing Simplified 
​"I was convinced that the best nucleus that I could possibly have, was one or two frames in an ordinary hive. In this way all work done by the nucleus was readily available for the use of any colony, after I was through with the nucleus...take a frame of brood and one of honey, together with all of the adhering bees, being careful not to get the old Queen, and put the frames into a hive where you wish the nucleus to stand...drawing up the division-board so as to adjust the hive to the size of the colony."--G. M. Doolittle, Scientific Queen-Rearing 
​"Where queen breeding is the prime object, the tendency is to use as small hives and as few bees as possible, so that the largest possible number of queens may be reared with the bees and equipment available. However, many of the most successful queen breeders find serious objections to baby nuclei and small mating boxes, and advocate nothing but standard frames for mating-hives."--Frank Pellett, Practical Queen Rearing ​


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Bee pro is about surface area to internal volume in turms of heat retention Ie the less bees touching the wall of the hive the better
four 1/2 deep frames will do better then 2 normal deep frames. a 2 deep nuc will have 2 full sized seems of bees touching the wall and one not, the 1/2 frames will have the equivalent of 1 full sized seam touching the wall and 1.5 not. 
this means its easier to keep the brood warm so you get more brood per amount of bees and in many cases you start with less resources per hive so you make more nucs.

for a good look at the how and whys check out Liz Huxter's system... one overwintered duplex hive with breaks up in to 20 mating nucs.... even crazer she over winters on five 1/2 shallows in 4 way boxes , in Canada no less https://vimeo.com/161651142

edit ODfrank posted while I was typeing 
sure jay smith called them a "passing fad" almost 100 years ago... looks like he was wrong as they are still very much around, and for a reason
They don't fit my needs at the moment, but I see a time when they may


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I drive an f150, i prefer a f250 with a 1 ton front ax, but that old bug was a lot of fun.

I'm just jealous that odfrank can just whistle and fill his nucs with swarms.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If I want heat retention then I will fill up the hive box with chewy foams.
I don't see why a standard 8 deep frames with 2 in each partition cannot retain heat
the way it is intended inside a 10 deep box for a mating nuc. No issue with this set up!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Saltybee said:


> I drive an f150, i prefer a f250 with a 1 ton front ax, but that old bug was a lot of fun.I'm just jealous that odfrank can just whistle and fill his nucs with swarms.


I own a F350 and an F450. After almost five decades of beekeeping, I finally this summer filled some of my nucs with divides and homegrown queens.
I used ten Mini mating nucs, and some standard medium depth frame double mating nucs on 45 year old divisions screens.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

msl said:


> for a good look at the how and whys check out Liz Huxter's system... one overwintered duplex hive with breaks up in to 20 mating nucs.... even crazer she over winters on five 1/2 shallows in 4 way boxes , in Canada no less https://vimeo.com/161651142


good info. I guess I have more gear to build!
here is a quick pic of my existing experiment on which configuration winters best.
https://postimg.org/image/cnkvu552n/
I went from queen castles to side by side (call them Palmer hives). I then kept going up on one (3 half deep stacks), split one to two deeps (side by side). One with one split deep. so the center picture is 6 queens. I took the picture so that I would know how much feed I put to them. I am sloppy but not that bad!


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I always thought this video showed a very interesting system for raising 6 queens in a single langstroth deep box...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv8D7hKGShQ

But I myself like to be able to swap frames between boxes so I use all 8 frame deep boxes as hives with 4 frame deep nucs as mating nucs. This works out pretty good for me as a very small scale hobby beek.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Beepro, 
I have no problem with 2 frames here if I guess the right window and it does not turn rainy or the wind off the water. A forty or fifty degree night butchers a two framer's brood. Kills queen cells too.
Foam mini's are an insurance policy against weather and control the size of the loss. Wood mini's are my preference ( enjoy making them) but the wood season is so much shorter and the risk greater.

odfrank, nice.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

msl said:


> for a good look at the how and whys check out Liz Huxter's system... one overwintered duplex hive with breaks up in to 20 mating nucs.... even crazer she over winters on five 1/2 shallows in 4


I was at that presentation when Liz gave it, suffice it to say, it was a bit inspiring. We followed thru here to test the concept. I took a deep box, divided it so that we could put 10 half size deep frames in each half, then made follower boards so each side could be split into two groups of 5. I didn't bother with foundation, just put starter strips on. The first summer, it went ok, we got the frames built out and I mated a round of queens in the box. I left them in the box for the winter, part of the grand experiment. Last spring, one of the compartments didn't do well, so, the solution was simple, in March, remove a follower board. On the other side, one of the queens was not producing brood, pinch, remove the follower board. By late April the box was teeming with bees on both sides, and I wanted to do a couple splits. We caught those queens for putting in the splits, and put 4 cells into the compartments.

For our small scale, this worked really well, a big issue for me has always been how much resources I have to rob from full size colonies for mating nucs. This year, the answer was none, the mating nucs populated themselves. the biggest issue with the smaller 4 ways done in mediums is population control, you really need to get the queens out on time. With the half size deep frames, there is more room, and timing not quite so critical. The other issue I ran into, also easily solved, at times they are making to much wax, but I have foundationless frames in those compartments. Just cut the comb out of one of them and put it back. A week later, it's drawn out.

In early July, I did run into another issue. The cells I was planning to put in were not worth putting in, problem in the builder I was using. I harvested the 4 queens out of the 4 way anyways and put them into the other spots I had scheduled, then left the 4 way to it's own devices. All 4 compartments successfully raised a new queen which is in there now for the winter.

This worked well enough for us that I will likely put together more in this configuration. It's very handy to always have 'spare queens' sitting in the 4 way box.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks for some positive feedback, I was getting to think it was a pipe dream. 
So how did you get the original frames drawn out? Michael Palmer had said that the queens will not move up readily into the small compartments but if you put a QE and confine her she will. 
Fat Bee man cuts frames out and puts it into a empty frame with yarn. 
From what I can see if you can get it up and running it will maintain itself.
How fast do you have to pull queens?
I have two deeps cut horizontal (20 frames each), two four way boxes modified -about 20 frames each that I needed to take a hand plane to some of them. And two screened bottom boards.
I have not built any tops yet, what do you use? I am thinking that I could use some 1 1/2” foam insulation with silver backing that I could put the foil down and glue it to some exterior plywood and run 1x for an edge. 
What do you do for feeders?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

odfrank said:


> A note on mating nucs from Michael Bush:
> 
> In my opinion it makes the most sense to use standard frames for your mating nucs. Here are a few beekeepers who agree with that:


I would never question the judgements of these famous beekeepers from the past, but perhaps their dislike of mini-nucs is about volume. I tried the standard deep frame nuc as my mating nuc. Takes forever of go through them to find the queen. I can't imagine looking through 160 big nucs every four days. Takes less than 6 hours with my 4-ways. I guess that if you're only raising a few queens, it doesn't matter.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Getting the frames drawn the first year proved to be a bit more of a challenge than I expected. I started off by taking a double deep colony, shaking it down into a single, then put the 4 way on top. The problem was, with no drawn frames in there to start out, they didn't want to move up into the big empty holes, so after 3 weeks I still had no comb on any of them. I got a little more drastic after that. I caged the queen from that colony, moved the box aside and put the 4 way in it's place. Then I shook all the bees from all the frames into one side, so they only had 10 half size frames, and a caged queen hanging between them. I took all the drawn frames with brood etc and put them into other colonies. Some time later I took this shot, a frame in progress. Today, they are all fully drawn from edge to edge.









After a couple weeks with a syrup bottle, they had 7 or so frames drawn with 4 of them full of brood, and I was quite surprised by how well they drew them out, attached to the sides all the way around. After I had that, I put half the frames on each side, and added a cell to the other side. Two weeks later, it was 7 frames on each side, then split it into 4 with the follower boards and a couple more cells.

If I had to do it again from scratch, since it's oddball frames that dont fit well into my other boxes, I'd just start with a shook swarm into one half and be done with it. Once they have 6 or 7 drawn, split it between the halves, then when both halves have 6 or 7 drawn, split it 4 ways and call it good. But moving forward it's easier now, I can start more boxes by just stealing frames from this one. My experience is, with 4 drawn frames and a good population in the compartment, they draw out an empty frame in short order. If I steal one frame from each compartment into the first compartment of a new box during the start of spring flow, a week later all 5 compartments will have 5 drawn, and I can do it again.

for tops, we actually made 4 small 'inner covers' so I can open one compartment without bees spilling over from the others. Those covers have a screened hole sized for a mason jar to put jar feeders on. If I have the jar feeders on. I use a standard telescoping cover on this setup, with and extra deep if I have jars on the inner covers.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> I would never question the judgements of these famous beekeepers from the past, but perhaps their dislike of mini-nucs is about volume. I tried the standard deep frame nuc as my mating nuc. Takes forever of go through them to find the queen. I can't imagine looking through 160 big nucs every four days. Takes less than 6 hours with my 4-ways. I guess that if you're only raising a few queens, it doesn't matter.


^^ What he said.

The first time you go 'hunting for a queen' that you want to harvest, you will really start to appreciate the small frames.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

AstroBee said:


> I used this: https://www.mannlakeltd.com/double-mating-nuc
> 
> This was my first year using these, and so far I am pleased. About 2 cups of bees on bare foundation, full feeder, and a caped cell and you're good to go. Of course start these as early as possible just before the main flow. I think my success rate was equal to, and possibly better than queen castles.


Other than being expensive, I like the ones I trialed later in the season here. How do you keep them on bare foundation with nothing but a cell though? Keep them closed in for awhile? Move them?

I closed mine in and waited for the queens to emerge, then moved them 1-2 days after queen emerged. Still seemed to lose bees. But to be honest didn't check until after queens would have been laying. So maybe they just drifted because the queen didn't come back. I cut some foundationless comb and gave them each one frame of comb. Ended up getting a few queens mated in them late in the year. Will consider more next season for sure.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>How do you keep them on bare foundation with nothing but a cell though? Keep them closed in for awhile? Move them?

We tried queen pheromone from Mann Lake, little green strips cut to 1/2". It held the workers in the nuc with queen cell very well.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

odfrank said:


> We tried queen pheromone from Mann Lake, little green strips cut to 1/2". It held the workers in the nuc with queen cell very well.


Good idea, I think I'll try a little juice from my jar-o-dead-queens on the tip of a cotton swab. Thanks, Frank.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

RayMarler said:


> I always thought this video showed a very interesting system for raising 6 queens in a single langstroth deep box...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv8D7hKGShQ
> 
> But I myself like to be able to swap frames between boxes so I use all 8 frame deep boxes as hives with 4 frame deep nucs as mating nucs. This works out pretty good for me as a very small scale hobby beek.


That would be interesting with the right frames... that mess he has would put me over the edge. 
Last year I thought that I had decided to do 5-frame nucs as my standard mating nuc, but early in the year here (I graft April 15th) it is tough to make 5-frame nucs strong enough as colonies are really just waking up from winter and we had a fierce cold snap right after nuc-making time. So I've been doing 4-way divided deeps (two frames each) "queen castles", which can share some heat through their 1/4" dividers. The first year I didn't like them much, but this year I ended up liking them much better and used them all year. And there is something to be said about being able to break those down without much real issue. I go through the 4-ways late in the year, pull two queens to sell or use for myself. Then take four frames and make a 5-over-5 nuc up with drawn comb and a frame feeder and "call it good". Finding the queens can be difficult at times, especially if they've started building much burr comb. 

I will probably make more of those divided 2-framers this winter for use next spring, though. I think I just talked myself into it making this post... I don't keep track of how many queens I raise every year, but it's got to be somewhere between 100 and 200. So a single batch for some of you guys.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> I would never question the judgements of these famous beekeepers from the past


yes but even "they" didn't agree....
MB said


> In my opinion it makes the most sense to use standard frames for your mating nucs. Here are a few beekeepers who agree with that:


What he didn't cover was the ones that disagree with his opion. You know, nobody's like Brother Adam and Henry Alley :shhhh: 

Most will say the down fall of the minys (sub 1/2 frame) is you cant over winter them, cant put them in full sized gear, etc...
Bu thats just lack of imagination, some one posted it here once, but I can't find it, or rember thier name... CAN commercial IIRR, BS search sux, google however found it 















take any item in beekeeping , if it has a become a standard item for a 2 generations + it likely has a place moving forward. The question is weather or not it fits your methods, goles, and climate. 
in short, what works for Sam Comfort would not for Mike Palmer... but they are still friends and make their living off bees


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