# Formic or Oxalic? Which weak acid is better?



## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

I was informed by my Chemistry instructor that reagent grade Oxalic acid is in fact more expensive than formic acid. She said that it would make sense that since people are paying more for the other similar acid, it must be more efficient of less harmful on the bees. I am contemplating using Oxalic acid in the coming year and would like to know the pros and cons. Any information which could aid me in the discernment between the two acid choices would be greatly appreciated.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

just stay away from the brown acid!

deknow


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*You're kidding; right?*



CSbees said:


> I was informed by my Chemistry instructor that reagent grade Oxalic acid is in fact more expensive than formic acid. She said that it would make sense that since people are paying more for the other similar acid, it must be more efficient of less harmful on the bees.


Did she really say that?
Do you realize how crazy that statement is?
So, the chemical companys, that sell to the vast and varied industry in our country set down and structure their pricing around efficacy in apiculture?
Tommorrow, go back to school and tell her that I think she is a nucklehead.
Pricing has no relationship to efficacy other than coincidental.
Anyway, be careful, and read all that you can about the two applications.
They are utilized in two very different manners.
Do a search here.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

*Weak?*

Be warned. Neither of these acids are weak.

Dickm


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## IslandMountainFarm (Feb 13, 2007)

*Watch out for the blotter acid*

'Cause like wow man, those bees will be like, seeing colors and the hive walls will be moving. Nothing worse than a hive of bees on a bad trip man LOL


heeheehee, been going nuts on bed rest the last 3 weeks after have a retina reattached. I just couldn't help myself, hope you'll forgive me.


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

Mr. Vanderpool,

T.S. Lindler has a vast understanding of both chemistry theory and commercial applications. You are calling a bonafide genius with an IQ of over180 an knucklehead. I will not relay the message. The point that she was trying to make is that the reagent grade of the oxalic acid is more expensive than that of formic, and perhaps that if each acid was as efficient as the other the frugal beekeeper of an operation would choose the cheaper of the two.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Many times, within limits (remember your calculus), IQ is inversely proportional to common sense. Hence "knucklehead". I had plenty of those professors.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am contemplating using Oxalic acid in the coming year and would like to know the pros and cons. Any information which could aid me in the discernment between the two acid choices would be greatly appreciated.

Assuming vaporizing both, for the moment. I see no real difference in how well they work IF they both get vaporized correctly and the dosage is correct. The problem with Formic is that you're dependent on the weather.

>Be warned. Neither of these acids are weak.

They will burn you, yes, but by chemistry definitions all of the Carboxylic acids (which they are) are weak acids.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

*Frugality:*

Csbees:

If frugality is the main concern then it's oxalic hands down. It's only a few pennies per treatment. Once a year whe they are broodless. Formic kills tracheal mites so a treatment in the spring could also be very valuable. 3 times one week apart.

Jean-Marc


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## megank (Mar 28, 2006)

jean-marc said:


> Csbees:
> 
> If frugality is the main concern then it's oxalic hands down. It's only a few pennies per treatment. Once a year whe they are broodless. Formic kills tracheal mites so a treatment in the spring could also be very valuable. 3 times one week apart.
> 
> Jean-Marc


I can get 55 gallons of industrial grade formic for less than 500 dollars..

wth I'm going to do with 55 gallons...


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

CSbees said:


> I was informed by my Chemistry instructor that reagent grade Oxalic acid is in fact more expensive than formic acid. She said that it would make sense that since people are paying more for the other similar acid, it must be more efficient of less harmful on the bees. I am contemplating using Oxalic acid in the coming year and would like to know the pros and cons. Any information which could aid me in the discernment between the two acid choices would be greatly appreciated.




The difference is that formic acid is killing varroa both on bees and in the sealed brood. Oxalic acid kills varroa only on bees.Thats something I know only from reading not from experience. 
Formic can have bad influence on queens.
They say that formic also tends to have bad impact on metallic parts inside the hive (nails for example).


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Not so sure about the formic killin mites in capped cells. I would have to say the formic kills the mites as they exit the cells.
Oxalic kills the mites on contact, its dribble treatment cant be prolonged as with the formic pads. Vapourized oxalic is a different story, but it effectiveness is soo variable all dependant on how effectively its vapourized. Id stay away from those crack pipes,

Anyhow dont fool youself figuring these acids are weak. They arnt, very dangerous, take the greatest of care to prevent exposure.

And for the bees, DONT treat the hives more than once per season with Oxalic, or you will end up with badly strained bees. Youd might as well let them mites at them!

Cost wise, on a treatment per hive, your treatment with Oxalic is cheaper, by far than formic acid. I treat 500 spring hives on 10-15$. Forget exactly what formic is, but it would be in the hundreds. Consider the applicator, and your much cheaper again.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

"Weak acid" is a technical term that refers to acids that do not completely ionize. In other words only a small part of all of the ions that could have acted as an acid, actually do. In strong acids they almost completely ionize and the entire amount disassociates (splits while in solution and acts as an acid). This does not mean that "weak acids" are not corrosive, nor does it mean they are not dangerous. But in general they are LESS corrosive and in general they are LESS dangerous than strong acids. It is merely a classification in chemistry. Typical STRONG acids are Sulfuric (H2S04) and Hydrochloric (HCL). Typical weak acids are any of the organic acids such as Acetic, Formic, Oxalic, Citric, Boric, Phosphoric, Lactic etc.

Yes, they ARE "weak" acids, but don't assume that means they are "safe" acids.


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