# Carniolan Bees



## Gus979

My first two packages are coming from the milwaukee-wauwatosa beekeeping association. They are getting the carniolan packages from Ray Olivarez. Should I be worried about having Carniolans as a beginning beekeeper?

I had figured as long as I did some amateurish checkerboarding in early spring the next year it wouldn't be too big a deal- but I've read stories of multiple swarms in a year. I suppose I could always really enjoy the splits and then requeen them with italians...but it sounds kind of dissapointing to me. Is this race really that hard the manage with swarming?

What I don't understand about honey bee genetics is why the big breeders haven't been able to remove the genetic likelyhood of traits like swarming. Why don't we have gentle african honey bees, non-swarmy carniolans, honey making caucasians and morally upstanding italians?


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Gus, the best prevention for swarms is drawn empty comb above the broodnest and new beekeepers don't usually have any. I would not be overworried about one strain of bees swarming versus another I have had Minnesota Hygienics swarm and Carniolans swarm. Swarming is a natural way for a colony to reproduce itself, and new packages will swarm especially if they are overfed. If your bees swarm don't be hard on yourself, just learn from it.


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## BeeCurious

Carnis are going to be just fine. 

You have plenty of time to avoid an " amateurish checkerboarding". 

There's time to learn a lot.... Read read read....!


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## beeware10

gus
carniolan bees are great bees. just do good basic beekeepng and skip the checkerboarding. a new queen will not swarm so why screw up the hive. good luck


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## MattDavey

I have Carniolan's. I have stopped them from swarming by keeping them busy making wax, they are very good at it! Don't feed once they have more than 4 frames drawn.

Have a look at:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?266489-Factors-contributing-to-Swarms-and-Swarm-Prevention

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275870-Two-queen-hive-and-different-breeds

Matthew Davey


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## westernbeekeeper

No. I started with them and they are good hardy bees; easy to keep up with.


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## Charlie B

Olivarez has great Carnies. They build fast so keep the brood nest open and split if you have to.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm


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## Steven Tervort

This is my third year with carni's. I have not had a swarm leave yet. I keep up with them and do splits frequently.


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## beedeetee

I don't think that mine swarm more than my Italians. The issue is that they go through the winter as a smaller cluster. It's easy to not worry about them swarming because the last time you looked they had plenty of room. Carni's can go from small cluster to swarm size pretty quickly, so you just need to remember to check on them regularly. Mine get to swarm size the same time as my Italians, but start much smaller at the end of winter.


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## rsjohnson2u

I am first year that started with one Carni package and added one Carni nuc this year. I overfed the nuc using the "feed them 'til they won't take it" method, and had to fight swarm cells/swarm prep due to brood comb backfilled with syrup. I opened up brood space, cut cells and they didn't swarm.

I think you'll like your Carnies, they fly and work at lower air temps around here, in wetter weather, and use less in stores(or so I'm told by local beeks-I haven't made it through the first winter, so don't know first hand).

Good luck in your beekeeping and with your Carnies, and welcome.


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## Gus979

Thanks everyone for the replies- I'm feeling a lot less uncertain about everything


> You have plenty of time to avoid an " amateurish checkerboarding


What I meant by that is whenever I read about checkerboarding they reference certain bloom times as timing for CBing- I have no idea about the bloom times in my area,never paid attention before so I figured I would just CB early before the bees get a head start on me


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## Rader Sidetrack

Gus979 said:


> I had figured as long as I did some amateurish checkerboarding in early spring the next year it wouldn't be too big a deal- but I've read stories of multiple swarms in a year.


You might find this paper on checkerboarding useful:
http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...tive-checkerboarding-results-and-conclusions/


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## MattDavey

Checkerboarding doesn't work real well with foundation. You really need to use drawn comb and you'll need at least 2 boxes of drawn comb to do it properly.

It also needs to be done real early, at the end of winter when the plum trees are blossoming (in my area anyway.)

I think first and even second year beekeepers will be more successful with "Opening the broodnest". I've got a modification on that which I call "Maintaining a hole beside the broodnest". You need to use foundationless frames for this (although you can use a short strip of foundation as a guide if you wish.)

Matthew Davey


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## JRG13

I use foundation with good results, I just stick it in there, not right in the middle of the brood nest but they will draw it out quick, at least my bees did, less than a week and start to lay in it.


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## MattDavey

I'm saying checkerboarding (as in late winter and early spring) with foundation doesn't work real well in terms of swarm prevention. Once there is a flow on they will draw foundation well.

Matthew Davey


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## Gus979

Deleted post


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## Gus979

Could you elaborate on these two techniques? From what I understand opening the brood nest is simply when you just jam an new box with new foundation in between the 2 brood boxes.

Do you always have a hole in your brood nest?


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## JRG13

I see what you're saying now Davey. I did do one manipulation in late middle of fall without a flow and they pulled it quite well, but the other time was just before peak flow so obviously they pulled it quickly then as well. The only other thing is when I do open up the brood nest, I give them about 1/2 liter of 1:1 sugar syrup ever 2-3 days for the week just to provide a minor flow stimulus. They usually take it all down in a day and then I let the feeder sit empty for a day or 2 before refilling just so they don't backfill a huge amount of brood space with it.

Gus, I don't jam a box inbetween, I take any frames of mostly honey, typically the 2 on each end and move them up and out of the brood area. I then put in new foundation, typically not right in the middle, leave the middle 2-3 frames together, then alternate new foundation with the existing frames to refill the box. I've had good results and found once I reconfigure the brood areas that way, they keep the brood there and store the nectar with the honey frames that have been moved up. A good time to do it is when you add a new box, only thing is you need to be using all the same sized equipment. My philosophy is that moving the honey up, you also create the honey barrier to keep the queen out of the top boxes and it also puts it right above the broodnest if they need it.


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## MattDavey

JRG13 is onto it.

In detail, this is what I am saying:
1. Move an outside frame, that has no brood on it, up into a new box (this goes directly above the brood nest.) You could start doing this when plum trees are well into blossom in very early spring.

2. Then find the frame on the edge of the brood nest and place the foundationless frame next to that. This is "the hole beside the brood nest."

3. 2 or 3 weeks later (or when the frame is more than 3/4 drawn) do the same on the other side.

4. Keep doing this every few weeks alternating sides. Once there is brood on the side frames of the box, place the frame with brood in the center of the box above (above the brood nest).

5. Do the same as 4. after another few weeks on the other side.

6. You can now do this process to two boxes if you like.

7. Once the main swarm season is over, you can just concentrate on getting them to work on drawing out honey frames.

I haven't fed when doing this. Making wax uses nectar, so this also helps reduce backfilling, whilst giving the queen more space to lay in. 

Frames that are moved are always directly above the brood nest, so if there is a cold snap, the bees can still get to that frame.

It may seem a bit much to go in every 2 or 3 weeks, but a new bee keeper would want to be in there that often anyway. You should now have a good amount of drawn comb, maybe enough to try other techniques next season.

Matthew Davey


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## lazy shooter

Is the Carniolan bee just a cold weather bee? My real question is: would they survive, or better said, would they prosper in West Texas? My bees are in a zone 8 freeze hardness. It is in an arid, low humidity environment, but when we have rain there are a huge amount of blooms for a couple of weeks. After that, it may be dry again. My flows come and go with the rains, and I need a bee that is a hustler and will get after the nectar when it's there, and not pull too hard on their stores in dry times. 

After stating the above, I realize that I described the bee that we all want. I am still interested in your opinions.

Lazy


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## mgolden

Matt, do you use a queen excluder? Or does this sequencing keep enough open egg laying area and a honey barrier, to mostly keep the queen in the brood nest?


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## brooksbeefarm

I've had carniolan bees for many years,and still buy carniolan queens when i buy queens. I do try other breeds of bees once in awhile and catch swarms, so over the years my bees have become mutts. When the carniolans decide to build up they can do it in a hurry, so i keep an eye on them in the spring and when i see it starting i will take 3 or 4 drawn frames from the bottom brood box and replace them with foundation, bees don't like empty frames and will go to work on them and it (sometimes) take their mind off swarming. ( this was an old Richard Taylor trick.)


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## rniles

brooksbeefarm said:


> When the carniolans decide to build up they can do it in a hurry, so i keep an eye on them in the spring and when i see it starting i will take 3 or 4 drawn frames from the bottom brood box and replace them with foundation


Do you just take any 3 to 4 frames? Which frames do you prefer to take?


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## MattDavey

mgolden said:


> Matt, do you use a queen excluder? Or does this sequencing keep enough open egg laying area and a honey barrier, to mostly keep the queen in the brood nest?


No, I don't use queen excluders. When you use foundationless (or even half a frame of foundation works well), the bees make all the drone comb that they want and so have no need to go outside the brood nest. The honey/nectar barrier is the queen excluder.

Matthew Davey


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## MattDavey

lazy shooter said:


> Is the Carniolan bee just a cold weather bee? My real question is: would they survive, or better said, would they prosper in West Texas?


They do prefer the cooler climate. If you look at the colour of feral bees in your area you will see which breed best suites your area. Basically the colder it is, the darker the bee and the hotter it is the lighter the colour of the bee.

They do react well to the available resources. I have seen them eat eggs and young open brood when pollen resources finish in late summer here. This reduces the amount of brood very quickly! Where my Italians tend to continue to try and raise the open brood.

Matthew Davey


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## Mike Gillmore

Gus,

You really won't need to worry about checkerboarding for a couple of years. You need extra boxes of drawn comb and capped honey to do it, and starting from scratch it will probably take you a couple of seasons to get to that point. 

This coming year your bees will be busy drawing comb, establishing their brood nest, and putting up stores for next winter. They may even draw out a super for you, but I wouldn't really count on it. The Spring of 2014 is when you will need to be vigilant regarding swarm prevention measures. With no extra drawn supers at that point you'll need to be "opening up the broodnest" to prevent backfilling and swarming. Carniolans start out with small clusters in early spring but they just explode in population once they get going. It can get away from you if you are not on top of it. I think that's one of the reasons they have a reputation for being swarmy. Beekeepers underestimate how quickly they build up and are not prepared for it, and swarms are the result.

They should drawn out some extra supers for you in 2014 and then you can plan to checkerboard in late winter/early spring of 2015. You have plenty of time to prepare. This coming year just enjoy watching them build up.


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## Jackson

Hi if I may ask 
1. how can we distinguish carniolan from italian? 
2. carniolan and carnican are the same ? 
or maybe someone could share a link to the proper topic for me , thank you


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## BMAC

Carniolan is Apis Mellifera Carnica. Italian honey bees are Apis mellifera ligustica.

The most obvious differences in appearance is the Italians are much more yellow than Carnis


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## Rader Sidetrack

This link explains some of the differences between major honeybee stocks
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/pdfs/1.12 copy.pdf

but it doesn't have photos of each group.


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## Jackson

thank you BMAC and Rader , from the picture below can you identify the one above the entrance and those below it? Is the one below italian?


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## BMAC

It would appear as though the bottom one is or has more Italian genetics. However Italians can vary quite a bit in exact color.

Is this picture from your colony?


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## MattDavey

Here's some photos from the beeinformed.org website.


Carniolan bees:











Italian bees:











Italian/Carniolan cross:


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## Jackson

Hi BMAC no it's not from my colony somehow I can't seem to be able to attach a picture from my folder so i tried to search one close to my bees. 
Here's a picture from my hive which i have on flicker 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/custom888/10558213513/


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## Jackson

Thank you MattDavey for the reference above, whats the are the main differences for the worker bees of the italians and italian carniolan cross, deeper orange color only?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Here is the photo I believe Jackson is attempting to show.








Jackson - I suspect that your Flickr account may not have "_Share_" permissions set properly to allow _direct _linking the photo in the manner you first attempted. I had to do it the hard way. Try editing your Flickr permissions and testing it again. You can "Edit" your post above and then use "Go Advanced" then "Preview" to see if it worked. If it isn't what you want, you can just cancel the edit and try again.


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## Jackson

Hi Rader Sidetrack, 
Thank you for helping me post the picture  I'll give it another try, I've changed the permission to public but somehow it just won't accept the file. Same error message Invalid File


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## Rader Sidetrack

Well, it works now.


two types of melli by custom888, on Flickr

When you click on "Share" at Flickr, click the radio button from "HTML" over to "BBCode". Once you copy the code they offer, you can just paste it _directly _in your Beesource post.


The BBCode that generated the photo link above (and what you should copy) looks like this when you have the Flickr options selected correctly:


[URL="http://www.flickr.com/photos/custom888/10558213513/"][IMG]http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5531/10558213513_c594610231.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL="http://www.flickr.com/photos/custom888/10558213513/"]two types of melli[/URL] by [URL="http://www.flickr.com/people/custom888/"]custom888[/URL], on Flickr


Note the ".jpg" towards the end of the second line above. That is a clue that you are linking to a linkable photo, and not what Flickr offered in the original post. Forums like Beesource almost always want BBCode, not HTML code. 

The second line in the BBCode above is the only code actually required to post that photo here. The other 3 lines are your caption, code that makes the photo a clickable link to your Flickr account, and a commercial that Flickr throws in just because they can.


This code links just the photo itself, as in the example below:

[IMG]http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5531/10558213513_c594610231.jpg[/IMG]

Note that I removed the [/URL] closing code from the end of line 2 to make it all work.









More info on how BBCode works is available at the _BBCode _link at the very bottom of every forum thread page.


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## Dominic

Gus979 said:


> My first two packages are coming from the milwaukee-wauwatosa beekeeping association. They are getting the carniolan packages from Ray Olivarez. Should I be worried about having Carniolans as a beginning beekeeper?
> 
> I had figured as long as I did some amateurish checkerboarding in early spring the next year it wouldn't be too big a deal- but I've read stories of multiple swarms in a year. I suppose I could always really enjoy the splits and then requeen them with italians...but it sounds kind of dissapointing to me. Is this race really that hard the manage with swarming?
> 
> What I don't understand about honey bee genetics is why the big breeders haven't been able to remove the genetic likelyhood of traits like swarming. Why don't we have gentle african honey bees, non-swarmy carniolans, honey making caucasians and morally upstanding italians?


I started with carniolans, and no problems there. In fact, I'd say that you risk less as a new beekeeper than an experienced one does, because you don't have the habits and expectations that someone who has only used italians has. Same goes with russians, I'd reckon. Each breed has their own specificities, which you must respect. If you all you ever had was italians, and you finally decide to get carniolans, but you treat them like italians... odds are you'll have some problems, and you'll complain to others about how bad carniolans are. The opposite would be just as true.

I personally don't feel that any race of Apis mellifera is inferior to any of the others. It's all a question of how well your practices are adapted to your breeds, or how your breeds are adapted to your practices. Some people will rate bees according to their honey yields... I would consider this to be a mistake. Is A. m. caucasica inferior to A. m. ligustica because it yields less honey...? If you compare the market value of honey and propolis, and factor in how caucasica are heavy propolisers, I'd have a really hard time accepting that caucasica is inferior to ligustica just because it makes a bit less honey.

Just be sure to give your bees room. Carnies are more prone to swarming, so don't let them beard as much as you would with italians.


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## MattDavey

Jackson said:


> Thank you MattDavey for the reference above, whats the are the main differences for the worker bees of the italians and italian carniolan cross, deeper orange color only?


In that photo it looks like a Carniolan queen that has mated with Italian drones. But she may have been a Carniolan cross as well and it's only showing in her daughters.

Yes, I would say any orange bands in a Carniolan would indicate an Italian (or other) cross. But there are also other factors such as lengths of legs that can be used to identify them.


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## Dominic

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well, it works now.
> 
> 
> two types of melli by custom888, on Flickr
> 
> When you click on "Share" at Flickr, click the radio button from "HTML" over to "BBCode". Once you copy the code they offer, you can just paste it _directly _in your Beesource post.
> 
> 
> The BBCode that generated the photo link above (and what you should copy) looks like this when you have the Flickr options selected correctly:
> 
> 
> [URL="http://www.flickr.com/photos/custom888/10558213513/"][IMG]http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5531/10558213513_c594610231.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
> [URL="http://www.flickr.com/photos/custom888/10558213513/"]two types of melli[/URL] by [URL="http://www.flickr.com/people/custom888/"]custom888[/URL], on Flickr
> 
> 
> Note the ".jpg" towards the end of the second line above. That is a clue that you are linking to a linkable photo, and not what Flickr offered in the original post. Forums like Beesource almost always want BBCode, not HTML code.
> 
> The second line in the BBCode above is the only code actually required to post that photo here. The other 3 lines are your caption, code that makes the photo a clickable link to your Flickr account, and a commercial that Flickr throws in just because they can.
> 
> 
> This code links just the photo itself, as in the example below:
> 
> [IMG]http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5531/10558213513_c594610231.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Note that I removed the [/URL] closing code from the end of line 2 to make it all work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More info on how BBCode works is available at the _BBCode _link at the very bottom of every forum thread page.


Hard to say because most of the bees aren't in focus, but these mostly look like carnies to me, except for that incoming bee on the top-right that looks rather italian. Without being able to take any measures here, I find that both the colors and the patterns differ between the two races, carnicas appearing, to me at least, as both more greyish and more uniform, whereas italians are brighter but have more different shades. Matt's italian example is not really representative, in my opinion, because these are cordovan italians, and (at least over here) most italians lack that cordovan trait.

Something to keep in mind, though, is that all of our bees are mutts, some just less than others.


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## Jackson

Hi Rader Sidetrack, 
Thank you for taking the time to help me out with the posting of the picture, I really appreciate the effort. I just tried it now on preview nice!!  
Happy as a bee


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