# Rotating Treatments Question



## Pooh Bear (Jun 19, 2015)

How do people rotate treatments from year to year? Some products contain similar chemicals so would you avoid two or more years of similar chemicals even if different products? Or do people try and change the chemicals used each year to try and slow mite resistance: example - using Apiguard one year and Apivar the next. Am curious to see how other beeks handle this.

Lastly - what are peoples experience with Hop Guard II?


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

Chemical treatments have become very expensive for me the past few years. I changed over to the thermal treatment using the Mighty Mite Killer and haven't looked back. I do keep OA and Apivar for emergency treatment for occasions when I am too far behind in my thermal treatments to hold hives over until I can treat them with the Mighty Mite Killer but for the most part rarely use them. Using the Mighty Mite Killer I am able to treat with the honey supers on or off. Makes no difference. Cost per treatment compared to using Apivar saves me about $1500 per treatment. I have tried just about all of the chemical treatments including Hop Guard (which was a pain in the neck to use with the original Hop Guard). I have had the best results and Winter survival rates using the Mighty Mite Killer.

You might try looking at others using it here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/275791919813444/

https://www.beehivethermalindustries.com/


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The Varroa have been resistant to both CheckMite and Apistan since about 2000. No point in rotating through a chemical that no longer works...


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## Pooh Bear (Jun 19, 2015)

I assume chemical resistance is a cumulative genetic trait and is unlikely to disappear any time soon through natural mutations. Still see both of these products for sale on many websites with little to no warning as to their reduced efficacy. Cavaet Emptor and all of that I suppose.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

I rotate OAV, formic acid (MAQS or Formic Pro) and Apivar. None of the three work the same way so I feel it is a good way to rotate. As far as Hopguard II goes, I am still mad at them for bad instructions with the original product and have never gone back. The original Hopguard stated you could do 3 treatments a year. so I did one treatment in the fall and was going to do another in the winter. All my hives died from mites before the new year and I have never forgiven them. What they should have said was you needed to do three consecutive treatments like you have to do with summer and fall OAV treatments. The reviews I have read state that the product is best used for a winter treatment and is not very effective for the fall or summer treatments. I cannot comment on the truth of that but I believe Randy Oliver's website has come information on it.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

My climate does not allow me to use formic and greatly limits my ability to use thymol. I use to be a very big Apiguard fan, but I have had too many absconsions because of temps creeping up during the treatment intervals. I am basically limited to OAV and Apivar. I put Apivar in my hives as soon as I pull supers off for the year (July - August). I use OAV in the spring and the Winter (b/w Thanksgiving and Christmas). My spring use of OAV is generally done in conjunction with splitting. The way I split (a version of fly-back splits) I can usually get both components of the hive broodless, or near broodless, during a short window and hit them both with OAV.

Using Apivar annually is not an ideal "rotation," but I do what I need to do to keep my bees alive.


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## Kuro (Jun 18, 2015)

I assume varroa mites will not develop resistance to OA (they might, someday), so I do OAV whenever it suits me, usually during brood break (after split/swarming, and in early winter). 

I also assume varroa will not become formic-acid resistant (they might, someday), but because formic treatment is harsh, I only do it once a year, in mid-late summer (when it is not too hot). 

The only other chemical I use is apivar, against which varroa mites may develop resistance (some people reported they did, and cattle ticks also developed resistance to amitraz, the active ingredient of apivar). I use it only once a year in fall, if summer treatment (either formic or brood break OAV) failed or re-infestation occurred. I hope using apivar every year this way is OK, because whatever mites surviving apivar treatment will be exterminated by OAV during winter brood break.


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## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

Kuro said:


> I assume varroa mites will not develop resistance to OA (they might, someday), so I do OAV whenever it suits me, usually during brood break (after split/swarming, and in early winter).


A speaker at our club said that OAV appears to have a physical reaction from the bees or mites. OAV either cuts the mites or stimulates the bees to start grooming. As such, mites can't develop resistance. It is like developing a resistance to a knife wound.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

For mites to develop resistance to either formic acid or oxalic acid would require massive changes to the actual mite, not just a few changes in DNA. So it is far off, if ever, that we need worry about mite resistance to those.

Amitraz, the active ingredient of Apivar Strips, has been used in it's raw form by commercial beekeepers, year in and year out, without resistance developing (that we know of). There have been rumours of resistance but i have not seen those confirmed. So at least for now, a person is pretty safe with Apivar strips, long as they are properly positioned and left in the hive long enough. Kuro i'd be interested to see a link about cattle ticks getting resistant to amitraz, if you have one.

Thymol in the form of Apiguard is very effective, IF weather conditions are right and the colony set up properly. But can be pretty useless if either of those conditions are not met. In my view this product falls into the experienced beekeeper only catagory. But the other thymol product, thymovar, is very unreliable, falls into the don't waste your money on it catagory.

Some of the other mite remedies that are for sale are pretty useless, in fact in my view worse than useless. Because using them can give the beekeeper a false sense of security and they take no further action, and lose their bees to mites. In my view some of these treatments should not even be sold, thymovar and hopguard being two examples.


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## Apis Natural (Aug 31, 2017)

I have great success with formic in spring, apivar in the fall, and a 4oz blob of homebrew apiguard for winter.
One can find the apiguard recipe on the SOBA_Southern Oregon Beekeepers Association website, created by John from Old Sol.


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## Kuro (Jun 18, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> There have been rumours of resistance but i have not seen those confirmed. So at least for now, a person is pretty safe with Apivar strips, long as they are properly positioned and left in the hive long enough. Kuro i'd be interested to see a link about cattle ticks getting resistant to amitraz, if you have one.


I did some literature search and you are right, I could not find a good scientific paper demonstrating varroa’s resistance to apivar. I also could not find a paper showing resistance (of dog ticks) to tick collars (Amitraz is delivered in a similar manner as in apivar). In contrast, there are multiple papers regarding resistance of cattle ticks. To cattle, amitraz solution is applied as a dip or low pressure hand spray, which makes it harder to control dosage, I suppose. 

Because I could not find a good review article, here is a paragraph from a relatively new study regarding cattle tick’s resistance to amitraz (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211320717301628).

“Amitraz resistance in R. microplus has been detected in multiple tick populations across the world (Chevillon et al., 2007; Mendes et al., 2013; Soberanes et al., 2002) and the resistance mechanism has been proposed to involve metabolic detoxification mediated by glutathione-S-transferase (Guerrero et al., 2012) or single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) (Baron et al., 2015; Corley et al., 2013). Recent reports have also suggested the involvement of ATP-binding cassette transporters in the detoxification of amitraz in R. microplus (Koh-Tan et al., 2016; Lara et al., 2015).”


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks Kuro, that is good (but scary), to know.

With the way Amitraz has been used and abused in beehives, it is almost as though varroa cannot develop resistance, or you would think, they would have.

However if there are resistant cattle ticks, it demonstrates that a resistance mechanism is possible, something for us to be aware of.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

There are no chemicals for varroa mites to develop resistance to when using thermal treatment.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Live Oak said:


> There are no chemicals for varroa mites to develop resistance to when using thermal treatment.


No, but thermal treatments could select for mites that can withstand higher temps. Thermal treaters may want to diversify as well.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

There is no evidence that has happened, not even with Apis Cerana which use natural thermal treatment against varroa mites for a VERY long time (the existence of Apis Cerana). In fact research data indicates the opposite to be the case. 

https://www.researchgate.net/public...erapy_in_the_elimination_of_Varroa_destructor

Regardless, I and apparently MANY other beekeepers have a strong preference to treat for varroa mite without chemicals whenever possible which in my opinion is a very good thing.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Live Oak said:


> There is no evidence that has happened, not even with Apis Cerana which use natural thermal treatment against varroa mites for a VERY long time (the existence of Apis Cerana). In fact research data indicates the opposite to be the case.
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/public...erapy_in_the_elimination_of_Varroa_destructor
> 
> Regardless, I and apparently MANY other beekeepers have a strong preference to treat for varroa mite without chemicals whenever possible which in my opinion is a very good thing.


The article you cite makes no mention of the potential of thermal treatments to select heat-tolerant mites.

I do not doubt the effectiveness of thermotherapy, and I do agree with you that the ability to treat mites without chemicals is a "very good thing."


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## SuiGeneris (Feb 13, 2018)

Live Oak said:


> There is no evidence that has happened, not even with Apis Cerana which use natural thermal treatment against varroa mites for a VERY long time (the existence of Apis Cerana). In fact research data indicates the opposite to be the case.
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/public...erapy_in_the_elimination_of_Varroa_destructor
> 
> Regardless, I and apparently MANY other beekeepers have a strong preference to treat for varroa mite without chemicals whenever possible which in my opinion is a very good thing.


As psm mentioned, the article you linked to says nothing about the evolution of resistance. From a strictly evolutionary perspective, thermotolerance (tolerance to heat) is relatively easy to evolve. There has been a lot of work done on this is Drosophila (fruit flies), and improved thermal tolerance can appear in just a few generations. The evolutionary mechanism of this is well understood - essentially, the flies make a little more of a family of proteins called "heat shock proteins"; simply by increasing the amount of these proteins in their cells, insects can become tolerant of higher temps in just a handful of generations. Thermal treatment for varroa is relatively new, but even so, its already been shown that they respond to heat stress in the same way of insects where the evolution of thermotolerance has already been observed.

I'd be willing to bet that, should thermal treatment become more common, that we'll pretty quickly see resistance evolve.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

There goes another sacred cow.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

SuiGeneris said:


> As psm mentioned, the article you linked to says nothing about the evolution of resistance. From a strictly evolutionary perspective, thermotolerance (tolerance to heat) is relatively easy to evolve. There has been a lot of work done on this is Drosophila (fruit flies), and improved thermal tolerance can appear in just a few generations. The evolutionary mechanism of this is well understood - essentially, the flies make a little more of a family of proteins called "heat shock proteins"; simply by increasing the amount of these proteins in their cells, insects can become tolerant of higher temps in just a handful of generations. Thermal treatment for varroa is relatively new, but even so, its already been shown that they respond to heat stress in the same way of insects where the evolution of thermotolerance has already been observed.
> 
> I'd be willing to bet that, should thermal treatment become more common, that we'll pretty quickly see resistance evolve.


Thanks for the very interesting link. Very good point and information to have. Learned something new. The biggest and most important reason I come here. :thumbsup: So far, I have done about 350 thermal varroa mite treatments with the Mighty Mite Killer. I will definitely be mindful and on the look out for evidence of resistance. If this in fact does turn out to be the case, perhaps rotating thermal treatment with other chemical treatments may be a better course of action. So far, I have had excellent results treating mite with thermal treatment but this does not mean that it is the "magic bullet" against varroa mites. Ultimately I believe the best and most lasting means of ridding the varroa mite as a harmful parasite of honey bees is what Randy Oliver is pursuing in trying to develop and genetically evolved honey bee that has developed successful resitance traits. In the meantime, I prefer to use successful and effective non-chemical treatments if I can. The cost savings I have realized in not spending money on chemical treatments has paid for all of the equipment I purchased for thermal treatment in about 2 rounds of treatment. Just one treatment of my apiary with Apivar costs me about $1,500 for example. MAQS is not exactly inexpensive either. Again, thanks for the link. It was an interesting and informative read.

@Oldtimer, thanks for the constructive and helpful comment.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

SuiGeneris said:


> As psm mentioned, the article you linked to says nothing about the evolution of resistance. From a strictly evolutionary perspective, thermotolerance (tolerance to heat) is relatively easy to evolve. There has been a lot of work done on this is Drosophila (fruit flies), and improved thermal tolerance can appear in just a few generations. The evolutionary mechanism of this is well understood - essentially, the flies make a little more of a family of proteins called "heat shock proteins"; simply by increasing the amount of these proteins in their cells, insects can become tolerant of higher temps in just a handful of generations. Thermal treatment for varroa is relatively new, but even so, its already been shown that they respond to heat stress in the same way of insects where the evolution of thermotolerance has already been observed.
> 
> I'd be willing to bet that, should thermal treatment become more common, that we'll pretty quickly see resistance evolve.


On another similarly related note, research into thermal treatment is beginning to show some unexpected benefits and results with respect to lowering viral loads in honey bees.
View attachment temperature bee virus (003).pdf


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

im using OAV early spring, Formic pro in summer, Apivar after honey is pulled then OAV again in Late Fall and again when broodless in Winter.


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## Andhors (Dec 7, 2018)

How does thermal treatment compare to a hot day? In a warm climate you should be able to seal the hive and accomplish the same result (with temperature monitoring to avoid overheating). 
Africanized bees stick to warm climates (fingers crossed). Is this why Africanized bees don’t have mite troubles? Maybe less to the grooming and brood breaks than we assumed?


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