# This is getting ridiculous (Varroa and OAV treatment)



## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

I have 11 colonies of various configurations in my one apiary. Some of the queens are this year's locally raised mutts, a couple are saskatraz, and who knows for the rest (I got them "used").

Here is my fall OAV treatment schedule this year, all colonies treated the same - August 11, August 31, September 7, September 13, September 20, September 24, September 30, and October 5. I shoot for 5-7 days between treatments (other than the one on August 11), but you will see some variance.

My OA is sourced from Florida Labs, and is "in date" and kept sealed, and looks clean. My OAV wand is a cheap one I bought from ebay, but seems to work fine. I see vapor when I treat, and mites die.

Most of the hives have mites largely under control now, as I am seeing just low double-digit drops after the last couple of treatments. But 3 colonies are dropping far more than I care to count, posssibly in the low hundreds 3 days after the September 30 treatment. Pulled the boards out for a glance today, and it looks like we are tracking for about the same this time as well.

At this point I suspect that I should have done something other than OAV, possibly Formic Pro, so that the treatment would be more prolonged. But each time I think "this is likely the last time for this year," and then it is not.

All colonies are strong and active. I suspect they may be robbing someone else's hives, otherwise I cannot explain what is going on.

Anything else I can do, or anything I have missed, that I can do better next time?

For those who might want to suggest just letting them die - it's not gonna happen as long as I can help it. I am solidly on the treatment side of the fence in my location and circumstance.


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## Murdock (Jun 16, 2013)

Everyone who keeps bees has mltes. You may have colonies close by that were "mite bombs"; either wild bees or a treatment free apiary. Keep treating and talk to local beeks to see what they are doing. It wouldn't hurt to try formic or something longer lasting on the worst hives to compare the results but be aware of the temperature requirements.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

bushpilot said:


> Anything else I can do, or anything I have missed, that I can do better next time?


Be prepared for selective treatment in fall. Do at least two (OAV) unselective treatments in winter (when colonies are brood less).
Expect (aim for) 10 to 20 % of losses.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

If you're killing large numbers of mites with VOA - then that method is clearly working as intended, so why change to using something else ? The wand is working and the OA you have is working - the problem appears to lie elsewhere, such as bringing in mites from outside the apiary - and that won't be solved by changing treatments.

You could try a series of doses every (say) 4 days, to provide an overlap to ensure you catch all the phoretic mites, and maybe increase the amount you're using by (say) 50% - but other than that, I'd say just keep doing what you're already doing. A couple of doses in mid-Winter is certainly a good idea - that's the treatment I tend to rely on most during the year.
LJ


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I've always been a little perplexed by the robbing out a dying mite bomb theory. Two things are missing from the telling (or hearing) of the tale. Robbing is a relatively short lived event, it is over when the the honey is gone and the hive is frequently close to dead. To have a yard heavily infected all would have to do the robbing and there would have to be a very large donor hive or hives. Do the receiving hives have an uptick in weight from stealing all that honey?

A more likely scenario is mites of a certain density in a hive follow a similar reproduction method as bees; dispersal. In mites that method is to hop on a flower being frequented by many colonies and wait. In this scenario the mite bomb is not the dying hive, it is the hive functioning well under a heavy mite load.

One theory does not preclude the other.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

if you get a 2-3 days stretch of rainy no-fly weather OAV them before and after. your drop count after can give you an idea what sort of mite drift you may be dealing with.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

bushpilot: You are experiencing exactly what I went through in 2015 and 2016. I switched to Apivar for my late summer/early fall treatment. Trials at Auburn University and the University of Georgia have shown inferior results with OAV series treatments with brood present. Jennifer Berry of UGA maintains that OAV is merely a "flash" treatment and does not have lasting mite kill effects beyond the initial sublimation.

I love OAV and I use it in spring and late fall and winter. I wanted very badly to avoid all synthetic miteicides, but OAV in series treatments just does not give me a high enough percentage kill at this time of year. No doubt it kills mites. Just not enough of them.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I, too, have had inconsistent results with oav. I use Apivar if daytime temperatures will be above 90F or the colony appears to be weak. I use Apiguard otherwise. I do a single mid winter oav treatment when my hives are broodless or nearly so.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Saltybee said:


> A more likely scenario is mites of a certain density in a hive follow a similar reproduction method as bees; dispersal. In mites that method is to hop on a flower being frequented by many colonies and wait.


Is there any evidence - however slight - to support that idea ? I would have thought it far more likely that mites would transfer directly from one bee to another, as the bees brush up hard against each other.

I've nothing to offer in support of this, other than whatever the attractant is - it's far more likely to be present on the bees themselves, rather than on flowers.
LJ


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Saltybee said:


> I've always been a little perplexed by the robbing out a dying mite bomb theory. Two things are missing from the telling (or hearing) of the tale. Robbing is a relatively short lived event, it is over when the the honey is gone and the hive is frequently close to dead. To have a yard heavily infected all would have to do the robbing and there would have to be a very large donor hive or hives. Do the receiving hives have an uptick in weight from stealing all that honey?


Agreed, and most beekeepers who treat or who are TF, doesn't just watch a hive get robbed & definitely doesn't let it go to the brink of death or getting robbed out:scratch:


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

The ready to produce evidence is only lurking in the back corners of my mind as something I read. That is a rather cluttered space.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

should have asked google first; https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2016/12/devastating-mites-jump-nimbly-flowers-honeybees
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5152851/


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

little_john said:


> If you're killing large numbers of mites with VOA - then that method is clearly working as intended, so why change to using something else ? The wand is working and the OA you have is working - the problem appears to lie elsewhere, such as bringing in mites from outside the apiary - and that won't be solved by changing treatments.
> 
> You could try a series of doses every (say) 4 days, to provide an overlap to ensure you catch all the phoretic mites, and maybe increase the amount you're using by (say) 50% - but other than that, I'd say just keep doing what you're already doing. A couple of doses in mid-Winter is certainly a good idea - that's the treatment I tend to rely on most during the year.
> LJ


I agree with this post.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

I've seen inconsistent results with OAV as well. In order to have a shot at good results, it is so labor intensive it's impractical if you have more than a few hives even with a band heater vaporizer. Plus the labor is done at the hottest part of the year in a gas mask and goggles! No thanks. OAV alone is not working for me. I want to avoid synthetic miticides so I'm trying either Apiguard or Formic Pro next year with OAV in the broodless period.

I guess I need to change my signature line for next year


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

I agree that if you are getting large drops, the treatment is clearly working. The fact that the issues keeps on going just confirms that the hive is bein reinfested from somewhere else. A single treatment with Apivar or MAQS or Formic pro will not stop a hive from getting reinfested once those treatments are finished. You still need to stay on top of monitoring afterwards. 

On a humorous note, I finally found out where the mites in my hives are coming from...


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

dudelt said:


> On a humorous note, I finally found out where the mites in my hives are coming from...
> View attachment 51761


Free delivery with Amazon Prime!


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

dudelt said:


> The fact that the issues keeps on going just confirms that the hive is bein reinfested from somewhere else.


Although this is a popular opinion in some circles it is far from a slam dunk.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

dudelt said:


> I agree that if you are getting large drops, the treatment is clearly working. The fact that the issues keeps on going just confirms that the hive is being reinfested from somewhere else.


If I have 6,000 mites in my hive (60,000 bees with a 10% infestation, both phoretic and under cappings) and I get a 2,000 mite drop from an OAV treatment, I still have a problem. Even if I get that same drop once a week every week for three weeks.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

beemandan said:


> Although this is a popular opinion in some circles it is far from a slam dunk.


Having seen hives treated with MAQS or Apivar that showed good mite drops and showed no signs of any varroa after treatment that a month later were riddled with the little buggers again makes me wonder where they all came from. If they were not in the hive in any great numbers 30 days earlier, and suddenly are a major problem, they had to come from somewhere else outside of the hive. They don't multiply that fast. Sure, there could be statistical issues or poor testing, or maybe all the phoretic mites were killed and all the living mites were all hiding under the cappings when the testing was done. I might accept that for a single event but it happens more often than can be attributed to poor testing controls. 

If I recall correctly, Randy Oliver was starting to investigate how much drift there is within beehives. Perhaps he will confirm what is really happening. If I am proven wrong, that will be great because at least we will have a better understanding of what is really happening and we can adjust to the new information. Until then, I will continue to use the information I have and do the best I can. When it comes to dealing with mites, I will not let my guard down.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

I believe the issue is you are beginning your treatments just as the mite population is expanding rapidly while you still have a good population of brood under cappings. It is hard to get ahead of that curve. That's why I have changed from exclusive OAV to formic in late July, early August and Oav as a clean-up (now) and a "one shot" in the winter when they are broodless. They come into spring healthy and as mite free as they can get, and that gets them to the summer treatment. So far, that has worked for me. 
Someone mentioned that they can't believe beekeepers would allow their mite bombs to be robbed. Believe it. I know several who don't treat and get robbed out. They aren't exactly TF people who actively try to be TF, they are "hands-off" types. Michael Palmer has posted about his low mite count hives robbing out his neighbors high mite count hives resulting in high mite counts in his hives. J


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## Kuro (Jun 18, 2015)

I’m in my 5th year and still experimenting on mite treatment. Since I only carry a few hives, my goal has always been 100% winter survival. If I had a dozen hives like the OP, I might cull a few which did not respond treatment. 

I had a similar experience as the OP in 2016. I stubbornly continued OAV until December (until mite drop became zero), and ended up with one dead and two weak hives. Looking back, I should have switched to apivar instead (too cold for formic by then).

My most successful treatment was done in 2017, when I used formic when mite loads were still quite low in early August. The treatment worked well but one of the 2 hives showed sudden surge in mite drop in October (probably went robbing and got mites as well), so I treated both with Apivar which worked well, then finally OAV during winter brood break.

2015, 2 hives from packages, formic in September-October, OAV in winter, saw K-wings, 2/2 survival.
2016, 2 hives and 1 nuc, OAV series in August, continuous OAV from October - December, no K-wings, 2/3 survival.
2017, 2 hives, formic on Aug, apivar mid Oct - early Dec, no K-wings, OAV in January, 2/2 survival.
2018, 2 hives and 1 nuc, all got OAV after swarming in July, apivar Sep - Oct, no K-wings, OAV in December-January, 3/3 survival.
2019, 2 hives and 1 nuc, all got OAV during brood break in May or July, the nuc got apivar mid Aug - early Oct, two hives got formic (half dose x 2 times) in September and apivar starting in October. Seeing K-wings in the hives.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Let's also not forget in this discussion that this is not a one-size-fits-all proposition. I could see where a region that has maybe only 7 to 8 months of active brood rearing, could respond much better to OAV series treatments than a region like mine that has 11 1/2 months. Mine are bursting the boxes and starting to swarm by the last week of February. By August, I am just helplessly behind the curve when it comes to mite control and OAV in series does not seem to do the trick. 

Contrast that with a region that does not start brooding in earnest until late March or early April, and you have far less cycles of mite rearing and may be able to get out ahead of them with OAV in series. 

I can see how all of us could be having different experiences. As always, we all need to do what works for us in our bee yards.


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## AstroZomBEE (Aug 1, 2006)

Have you done any counts via alcohol wash? that will give you your best actual ratio.
the 5-7 days is a bit on the outside edge for timing, we used this method too in the beginning of our use of ox vaporizing 2 years ago and had some inconsistent results.

We narrowed it down to 3-5 treatments 3-4 days apart Mon and Friday rotations. We do mite rolls after 24 hours after the 3rd treatment and continue if results deem it necessary. Consistency is key, with oa vapor when brood is present.
We treat thousands of hives this way, and we rotate between OA, Formic, and amitraz to keep them all viable for as long as possible.

Aaron


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

Thanks for all the input everyone. I think next year I will try starting a little earlier. It is my practice as well to do a mid-winter "one shot" OAV treatment, and I will do that this year as well.

I was wondering when someone would ask if I took counts. No, I didn't, though I have done alcohol rolls in the past. Anyway, I knew I had mites, and knew I was going to treat repeatedly until drops decreased, so why bother counting? That was my logic, right or wrong.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

bushpilot said:


> Anyway, I knew I had mites, and knew I was going to treat repeatedly until drops decreased, so why bother counting?


Because the count will never go down without a starting point:scratch: So you know how many mites are actually dropping pre & post (if the treatment was effective)? So no one can blame someone else, drift, robbing a “mite bomb”, or a flower for their mites So you are not prophylactic treating on a schedule? However, I can appreciate you not counting


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> Because the count will never go down without a starting point:scratch: So you know how many mites are actually dropping pre & post (if the treatment was effective)? So no one can blame someone else, drift, robbing a “mite bomb”, or a flower for their mites So you are not prophylactic treating on a schedule? However, I can appreciate you not counting


1. One thing I've been doing, especially now that we're in fall, is using the screened bottom board white sticky board as a "rough" mite count. What I mean by this, is that I do OAV on EVERY hive with a white sticky board, and examine the resulting mite count. Generally speaking, if I see 50+ mites drop after an OAV treatment, I know it's time to apply another round of treatments. 

Using Johno's Easy Vap, each hive takes 30 seconds. 

After several treatments, the mite drop to the stick board tends to steadily drop down to around 25 or less. Sometimes it'll drop down into negligible levels, which is an obvious sign that OAV has worked. I've managed to eradicate mites in a number of colonies using OAV. They always come back though.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I have stopped pre-treatment washes and counts for my major fall treatments (Apivar) that I put on immediately after my supers come off. I know they are going to be over 3% by the end of July, so I am not going to waste my time. 

Once the Apivar strips come out, I do alcohol washes on all of my hives. My goal is to get below 1% infestation prior to October 31. What my mite count was in July/August and whether they robbed out a varroa infested hive or not does not matter to me. If they are above 1% by October 31, I still have work to do. Fortunately with my weather, I can still do it.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

username00101 said:


> 1. One thing I've been doing, especially now that we're in fall, is using the screened bottom board white sticky board as a "rough" mite count. What I mean by this, is that I do OAV on EVERY hive with a white sticky board, and examine the resulting mite count. Generally speaking, if I see 50+ mites drop after an OAV treatment, I know it's time to apply another round of treatments.
> 
> Using Johno's Easy Vap, each hive takes 30 seconds.
> 
> After several treatments, the mite drop to the stick board tends to steadily drop down to around 25 or less. Sometimes it'll drop down into negligible levels, which is an obvious sign that OAV has worked. I've managed to eradicate mites in a number of colonies using OAV. They always come back though.


Yep, this is where I am as well. Except I don't have the Easy Vap.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> Yep, this is where I am as well. Except I don't have the Easy Vap.


I am thinking it is time for you to get one, at least once JohnO starts offering them again. My personal opinion is that the band heater style vaporizer, like the EasyVap and the ProVap110, which I own, are far superior in application and coverage than the pan style. Think of it like trying to put out a fire with a garden hose vs a fire hose. You can use the same amount of water but the fire hose is going to do the job better, faster, and be more effective.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> I am thinking it is time for you to get one, at least once JohnO starts offering them again. My personal opinion is that the band heater style vaporizer, like the EasyVap and the ProVap110, which I own, are far superior in application and coverage than the pan style. Think of it like trying to put out a fire with a garden hose vs a fire hose. You can use the same amount of water but the fire hose is going to do the job better, faster, and be more effective.


Oh, I am simply waiting for him to open the gate again, and I will leap through!


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## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

psm1212 said:


> bushpilot: You are experiencing exactly what I went through in 2015 and 2016. I switched to Apivar for my late summer/early fall treatment. Trials at Auburn University and the University of Georgia have shown inferior results with OAV series treatments with brood present. Jennifer Berry of UGA maintains that OAV is merely a "flash" treatment and does not have lasting mite kill effects beyond the initial sublimation.
> 
> I love OAV and I use it in spring and late fall and winter. I wanted very badly to avoid all synthetic miteicides, but OAV in series treatments just does not give me a high enough percentage kill at this time of year. No doubt it kills mites. Just not enough of them.


Bingo! Amitraz is a dirty word to many beekeepers, but it's deadly to mites. It is advertised to kill 99% of mites in one treatment. Put them in, take them out in 6 weeks. I'll take that all day long.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

wdcrkapry205 said:


> Bingo! Amitraz is a dirty word to many beekeepers, but it's deadly to mites. It is advertised to kill 99% of mites in one treatment. Put them in, take them out in 6 weeks. I'll take that all day long.


I can confirm, at least when I used Apivar, that it didn't even get close to killing 99% of mites.

It was effective, but certainly not as advertised.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

username00101 said:


> I can confirm, at least when I used Apivar, that it didn't even get close to killing 99% of mites.
> 
> It was effective, but certainly not as advertised.


That figure may be technically correct with a captive bunch of bees, but if you have in drift of mite ridden bees near the end of the 7 or 8 week duration you would find living mites that had not been exposed long enough to the full strength strip. Still, I think it is hard to beat their effectiveness.

The same apparent contradiction can occur with any treatment. 

Trust, but verify is the order of the day!


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

username00101 said:


> I can confirm, at least when I used Apivar, that it didn't even get close to killing 99% of mites.
> 
> It was effective, but certainly not as advertised.


My experience with Apivar, which I have used for 3 years now on between 20 to 30 hives, has been excellent. I have not yet completed my mite washes for year 3, but so far i have <1% infestations showing up. In the past 2 seasons (roughly 45 hives) I have had only one hive test >1% infestation after post-Apivar alcohol washes and that one tested over 3%. Not certain what happened there, but I have chalked it up to an aberration. I have read some less-than-satisfied accounts of Apivar results on this board.

3 years of experience with Apivar on a limited number of hives is not evidence of much, but I am a believer. Until I am not.


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

little_john said:


> Is there any evidence - however slight - to support that idea ? I would have thought it far more likely that mites would transfer directly from one bee to another, as the bees brush up hard against each other.
> 
> I've nothing to offer in support of this, other than whatever the attractant is - it's far more likely to be present on the bees themselves, rather than on flowers.
> LJ


There is some video evidence showing a mite on a flower and when the bee lands the mite runs ( amazingly fast) onto the bee. I'm not sure how I interpret that video, but it is there, and it's kind of neat, or spooky, to watch.


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## AstroZomBEE (Aug 1, 2006)

knowing your true saturation rate of mites is much better than just treating. Doing the alcohol washes give you a better insight on if and when you need to treat. If you have an extremely low mite count you could skip a treatment cycle, or if it is extremely hight, you may want to think about using something that has a better kill ratio. The more info you have the more likely to make a better overall decision. Treating blindly can have it's own side effects as well, just like using the same treatment over and over with no rotation.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

unstunghero said:


> There is some video evidence showing a mite on a flower and when the bee lands the mite runs ( amazingly fast) onto the bee. I'm not sure how I interpret that video, but *it is there*, and it's kind of neat, or spooky, to watch.


 Where is "there" ?
LJ


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

No doubt that you are correct about mite washes and knowing where you are Astro. It would be better if I did alcohol washes prior to my major treatments once supers come off. But I am a one-man band and I cut where I can. I know most if not all of my hives will be over thresholds when I pull supers for the final time in July or August. I also would treat an entire yard if I found more than a couple over those thresholds. My limited experience is that virtually all are over thresholds at that time.

So I just do post-treatment washes to confirm that I am under thresholds. All other treatments at any time of the year are not done unless pre-treatment washes are performed and confirm the need, with the exception of a broodless hive. If broodless, I am going to do a single shot OAV without a pre-wash.

All that being said, I agree with your statement above.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

little_john said:


> Where is "there" ?
> LJ


"there" is "here":
https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2016/12/devastating-mites-jump-nimbly-flowers-honeybees


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

crofter said:


> That figure may be technically correct with a captive bunch of bees, but if you have in drift of mite ridden bees near the end of the 7 or 8 week duration you would find living mites that had not been exposed long enough to the full strength strip. Still, I think it is hard to beat their effectiveness.
> 
> The same apparent contradiction can occur with any treatment.
> 
> Trust, but verify is the order of the day!


TRUTH


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

The paper itself states that a mite can survive on a flower for as long as 6 days. I had always believed a mite would not be able to live for near that long without its host.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

The mite leaving the bee to wait is not demonstrated directly as far as I know. Indirectly in the 2nd link is discussion of a mite being found on a shipment of cut flowers and discussion of the mite surviving 6 days on a flower. It can be argued the video of the mite mounting the bee is only what happens in the hive applied to the flower. Not a normal transmission. On the other hand waiting for a bee to dismount on a flower is a long shot in timing.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

Saltybee said:


> The mite leaving the bee to wait is not demonstrated directly as far as I know. Indirectly in the 2nd link is discussion of a mite being found on a shipment of cut flowers and discussion of the mite surviving 6 days on a flower. It can be argued the video of the mite mounting the bee is only what happens in the hive applied to the flower. Not a normal transmission. On the other hand waiting for a bee to dismount on a flower is a long shot in timing.


what about when a bee with a mite on it dies? ever have a colony abscond due to mite load? those mites are not gone forever.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

COAL REAPER said:


> what about when a bee with a mite on it dies? ever have a colony abscond due to mite load? those mites are not gone forever.


Certainly would fit the mite bomb situation and some mites certainly would be available to hop on the next robber ride. Most, not under cap, would depart with the abscond. 

Wonder how many capped brood hatch after abscond?

The only abscond I actually watched happen (so I know the actual timing, no just an empty hive) had field bees returning and a few brood still hatching along with minor amount of young brood and even a few eggs. Combined immediately so no follow up on how long the untended brood/mites would survive. That was in August and due to the hive knocked over in the rain, not mites.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

COAL REAPER said:


> "there" is "here":
> https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2016/12/devastating-mites-jump-nimbly-flowers-honeybees


Thanks for the link - appreciated.
LJ


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

COAL REAPER said:


> what about when a bee with a mite on it dies? ever have a colony abscond due to mite load? those mites are not gone forever.


I have always believed that they were in fact gone forever. If they did not hitch a ride on an outgoing bee of that colony, or they did not hitch a ride on the subsequent robbers, I believed they would quickly die without another honey bee host.

With a PMS dead out, I usually have observed only a few dead bees on the bottom boards (as opposed to a starvation). I assume most mites hop on the last bees as they abandon ship. 

I am surprised by the 6 day survival stat. But they have no mode of mobility unless another live bee visits the hive.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

Well, since I treated on Tuesday, the mite drop has improved. Still not where I want it to be, but about half of what I had on the previous shot. I'm going to treat again tomorrow (Saturday).


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Interesting discussion. Clearly we still have a lot to find out about mites....
So conjecturing here based on a few assumptions (worst case scenario?) about mite bombs.
1. Mites live for 6 days without a host.
2. Bees emerge for 3 days after colony dies.
3. A weak colony succumbs to robbers after 3 days of pressure.
4. A booming colony that is crashing because of mites has 20000 "phoretic" and 10000 under cappings, only 50% of which will emerge because not all capped brood will....
5. Robbing takes 6 days (3 days slow robbing while colony is still fighting and 3 days after). I think a colony would get robbed out more quickly but this gives the emerging bees more time....
So about 24000 mites available to be transfered in 6 days, 4000 mites per day (it probably is not evenly distributed), going to the strongest colonies in the area, say the 4 strongest as they will be most effective robbers. This is a potential mite load of .5% returning to your hive every day. 
If an apiary in your area has 1 mite bomb per week for 4 weeks (and of they have more than 4 colonies and they have mite bombs, they probably have more than 4 more bombs....!) your strongest hives could see an increase in mite load of 14%.
People: don't let your bees succumb to mites before winter. (If they succumb after flying and robbing has stopped for the year that's on you. If they succumb during robbing season that's on your neighbors....)
Last assumption: mites transfer effectively this way.
Does anyone have better numbers on this? Has anyone done a sizeable scientific study of how mite bombs work?
Happy beekeeping everyone!


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I agree with the process you have outlined, but you may want to look over your numbers in item 4. 
Mite bombs can and do happen. There are also a fair number of beekeepers who do not recognize how quickly a low mite count hive can become reinfested. These are often the ones who say they treated their hives but the treatment didn't work.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

5. Not all bees are loyal to their hive in my personal subjective opinion. When the home hive's fait is set, there are those bees that join up with the victors. That is the method of transfer that is most probable. The pile of dead bees is just not big enough to make sense otherwise.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

I agree jw there may well be more under cappings. I figured since there is less brood in fall maybe there would be fewer under callings as I do not know what the maximum number of mites per cell is. I certainly don't think any of my colonies have 10k capped brood now, most have well less than a frame, some are maybe getting close to 10000. And not sure if a crashing colony that is strong in bees is also strong in capped brood. Also a crashing colony may have a high rate of infestation (100%?) but does such a colony still have 60k bees? I.e. does anyone know how many mites a normal (single queen) colony can max out at?


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

So glad you seeing a reduction. I’m betting on your persistence and determination. These drifting mites sneak in late. My biggest block of mites came after the second round. 

People here aren’t that fond of using sticky boards for assessing but it does help to spot trends. It saved my bacon this time when I thought my treatments were mostly on track and wrapping up. Nope.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Remember that a capped cell contains at least two female mites, the mother and a daughter, as well as one male that is of no concern. A little over half of a deep frame of capped brood would just about do it. I don't think an average fall "mite bomb" colony would have 20K phoretic mites, but I know they can have several thousand if heavily infested. I am sure I was dropping over a thousand on one hive post OAV for several treatments


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

LAlldredge said:


> So glad you seeing a reduction. I’m betting on your persistence and determination. These drifting mites sneak in late. My biggest block of mites came after the second round.


We'll see, I just today did my 10th treatment since the beginning of August.



LAlldredge said:


> People here aren’t that fond of using sticky boards for assessing but it does help to spot trends. It saved my bacon this time when I thought my treatments were mostly on track and wrapping up. Nope.


Without the boards, I probably would have assumed that one or two treatments did the trick, as I certainly would not be doing 10 alcohol washes on each of the 11 colonies! The boards are not perfect, but using them is quick, efficient, and often adequate.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

COAL REAPER said:


> "there" is "here":
> https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2016/12/devastating-mites-jump-nimbly-flowers-honeybees


So what does this say about "Darwinian Beekeeping"?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

psm1212 said:


> The paper itself states that a mite can survive on a flower for as long as 6 days. I had always believed a mite would not be able to live for near that long without its host.


A mite by the name Vic lived in this container, in my kitchen for about a week.
Several of them, actually. I just collectively call them all - Vic.

Unsure what she ate, if anything.
Maybe sucked on the open drone larvae until they went spoiled.
I don't know.

It also jumped onto the metal needle and ran up and down on it like a monkey on a tree.
As well as crawling on a finger.
Not a problem. 
The darn "bug" is amazingly mobile and sensitive (for a blind person) and sticks to anything that moves nearby.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

GregV said:


> A mite by the name Vic lived in this container, in my kitchen for about a week.
> Several of them, actually. I just collectively call them all - Vic.
> 
> Unsure what she ate, if anything.
> ...


Interesting. Were you doing an experiment or something?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I think Greg was looking for a low maintenance pet. I mean, good Lord, he NAMED them.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

I performed a brood break on a large hive with a New World Carniolan Queen per Jennifer Berry's article. The queen and all larval brood were removed but some capped brood remained. I waited a week until essentially all brood were emerged. I OAV'ed and got a total dead varroa drop of 291 varroa. Seven other treated hives with brood showed low dead drops, 50 to 60 in September. A second queen was installed, first queen "disappeared" after release. When laying started up I OAV'ed , ~ 500 dead varroa. They were foraging with nothing else to do, likely robbing too. Fall horizontal spreading and Varroa Bombs seem to be the only logical answer as it has been a repetitious pattern 3 years in a row. In my area, southern Rhode Island, I see a huge rising dead drop counts from my own brood ( low?) and migration( high) about mid October, annually. I will not use synthetics like APIVAR, a philosophical thing on my little farm, but I do use drone removal and OAV for defense in the Fall; winter OAV treatment is the best prevention.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> Well, since I treated on Tuesday, the mite drop has improved. Still not where I want it to be, but about half of what I had on the previous shot. I'm going to treat again tomorrow (Saturday).


Since the above post, I treated all hives (on Saturday). I then selectively treated 5 of them again on Tuesday. I think Tuesday's was treatment #12 for most of those colonies, if I am not mistaken.

Interestingly, I have some dry Ultrabee out, and when it is not raining, the bees are all over it. The colony that shows the worst mite infestation (per the mite drop trend after OAV) is also apparently very busy getting the pollen sub (substantially more evidence of it on the bottom board). It seems reasonable that there is a connection, that they are more active in the cooler weather, pulling in more sub, and possibly looting a neighbor's hive as well. If it matters, that is my only known Saskatraz queen, most of my queens are unknowns.

Overall, the mites seem to be under control for most or all of my colonies. I haven't pulled the boards since the Tuesday treatment (raining a lot and busy), but I am expecting that they will show continued improvement, and that the infestation is currently below the threshhold for overwintering. But if I see mites, I will do it again (all hives if I have time, 4-5 worst if not) when I have a window of opportunity.

My hives are closed up for winter, and I have no intention of opening them again, which rules out alcohol wash. But I think the treat and count method works well enough for now. 

This experience has reaffirmed to me the value of keeping most of my hives on screened bottom boards, even if I intend to keep them closed. I like to be able to do a quick check by pulling the board. A few with solids don't bother me, I just assume (yeah, I know...) that they mirror the trend seen on the others. 

It has been a great discussion, thanks everyone for the input and participation!


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## TJC1 (Nov 11, 2012)

Robert Holcombe said:


> I performed a brood break on a large hive with a New World Carniolan Queen per Jennifer Berry's article. The queen and all larval brood were removed but some capped brood remained. I waited a week until essentially all brood were emerged. I OAV'ed and got a total dead varroa drop of 291 varroa. Seven other treated hives with brood showed low dead drops, 50 to 60 in September. A second queen was installed, first queen "disappeared" after release. When laying started up I OAV'ed , ~ 500 dead varroa. They were foraging with nothing else to do, likely robbing too. Fall horizontal spreading and Varroa Bombs seem to be the only logical answer as it has been a repetitious pattern 3 years in a row. In my area, southern Rhode Island, I see a huge rising dead drop counts from my own brood ( low?) and migration( high) about mid October, annually. I will not use synthetics like APIVAR, a philosophical thing on my little farm, but I do use drone removal and OAV for defense in the Fall; winter OAV treatment is the best prevention.


This mirrors my experience this year and last (tho this year much worse) here in Mass, so close to you in RI. Gave 4 OAV treatments seven days apart in August/September; last drop was 50 mites over 5 days. Bottom boards with 2-5 mites over next weeks, jumping to 400+ on October 8. Since then, 6 OAV treatments 5 days apart; drops for each 5 day period went from ca 1000+ to now 2000+ !!! This is insane! I guess that I will keep treating till the numbers drop - if they ever will.


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## TJC1 (Nov 11, 2012)

Haven't been able to track this down; posted on a local beekeeper's forum - has anyone seen reference to this study?

"There was a study done where a dying, mite-infested hive was marked. The hive died, as expected, but what was shocking to me is that the marked bees were found IN hives all over a 2 mile radius. So in addition to exposure in the field, your neigbor's sick bees ARE IN YOUR HIVE. That is what is going on with all of these thriving August hives that end up nearly empty in October."


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

The October mite drift = welcome to crazy town. I had one colony population swell almost overnight. Not logical that all of it came from hatched brood. Many of us were doing multiple rounds of OAV to knock them back. Down to one or zero drop.


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## Kuro (Jun 18, 2015)

TJC1 said:


> Haven't been able to track this down; posted on a local beekeeper's forum - has anyone seen reference to this study?


this one?
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0218392


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## TJC1 (Nov 11, 2012)

Thanks, Kuro - this is a really interesting study and seems to point the way to a clearer picture of the complexities of what may be going on, especially in relation to the "October mite drift = welcome to crazy town" as so well put by LAlldredge!


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

i have 16 colonies that are sisters and half sisters, all with midsummer brood breaks and new queens by july. Full sized hives. i started oav oct 10th or so - first drop ranged from 50 to 2000. Now after 3 OAVs, a couple of hives had drops over 400 still. Gotta do those again.

It almost looks like some went robbing early, then stayed home, others went robbing later, which is weird. 

Total drops ranged from 3620 to 230, with everything in between. A couple had drops pretty high still, which means I will do them all again soon, after we finish these couple of fly days.

A beek around the corner who treats with OAV had drops over 1000 on 4 hives for the first treatment. He did MAQS in Aug and mid Sept. And their alc washes were 0/300 in June; all had brood breaks too, or were June splits.
Imagine if I had treated in summer, trying to protect the winter bees - would I have been in for a nasty surprise! Sadly I did not treat (or get a mite count) during the summer, relying on what happened last year - mite drops were 300 total for the 3 hives after no treatment for 9 months prior. Clearly this year was different.

Oh and I know there is a "beekeeper" across the way with 2 hives he does nothing with. I think I will visit in Dec on a fly day, see if they are out... and if not, maybe he'd like a free nuc with my breeding material, and free OAV treatments next year?... get my drones around the neighborhood!


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

little_john said:


> Where is "there" ?
> LJ


I don't remember, sorry. I watch videos of speakers at various conferences, and I think it could be one of those. It was a short video zoomed in on a flower and when the honey bee lit, the mite crawled onto the bee. I don't remember a detailed explanation of how this was done, and frankly I don't think it would make a lot of difference to me whether someone had 1000 cameras on 1000 flowers, or whether it was somehow staged.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Thanks - a few posts back Coal Reaper came up with a source: https://news.cornell.edu/stories/201...wers-honeybees which showed something I had difficulty believing - and to be honest something I didn't really *want *to believe - because if this is indeed a major route of transmission, then it's a real game-changer ...

No wonder the little sods are able to spread so quickly - all it takes is just one mite on just one bee to start an infestation. That's a tough nut to crack. If it took both a male and a female mite to start the ball rolling, then you could flood the area with a strain which produced sterile males - that would work ok. But such an approach (gene editing) wouldn't work here.
LJ


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

Kuro said:


> TJC1 said:
> 
> 
> > Haven't been able to track this down; posted on a local beekeeper's forum - has anyone seen reference to this study?
> ...


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

What's the lowest temperature that one can do OAV?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

username00101 said:


> What's the lowest temperature that one can do OAV?


Right above freezing. BioVet recommends 34 and above. There is no top temperature.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

One OAV treatment each 7 days isn't enough. The mites are faster than that.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

34 is too cold SNL...in my opinion. Clusters are too tight for vapor to penetrate cluster. I would say over 40 at a minimum. I told you how my treatments failed because by the time my colonies are broodless the temps are below 40. Two years vaping and no control.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> One OAV treatment each 7 days isn't enough. The mites are faster than that.


Well,,,,yes and no.
If you are in trouble with a heavy mite infestation; yes.
If you have a moderate mite infestation or less, vaporizing weekly, continuously throughout the robbing season _seems_ to keep populations at a reasonable level.
I had 2 yards of 40 hives each that got split every 30 days this year.
When the honey came off, I began running the crack-pipe (Provap 110) by them weekly.
This is the only treatment for mites these hives received this year.
Also, I had supers of crystallized brassica honey that I placed under the double deeps in the hopes that they would clear the shallow supers and move the honey up and store for winter feed.
I pulled the shallows a few weeks ago and all three boxes were STUFFED with bees, wall to wall!!
I'm hooked, on the crack pipe!!


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