# how do you regress from large cell to small cell???



## rmcpb (Aug 15, 2012)

Put some frames in with a starter strip. Make sure each one between a couple of established frames so they build straight comb. The rest is easy.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Use Mann Lake's PF -120 frames...

Oops, never mind. I over looked the "foundationless"...


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Michael Bush has a page that includes going foundationless:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Here are some ideas:
www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#whatisregression


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Michael, that is a link to a file on your computer. Please change it to a link on your website.


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## Duranthas (Mar 17, 2012)

I think Michael meant http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#whatisregression


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## honeydrunkapiaries (Oct 16, 2013)

I put bees directly on pf100 (4.95) and they had no problems drawing it out.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

I think the easiest way to switch over to foundationless is to start expanding the brood nest with foundationless frames in the Spring. If you mark your frames with foundation before you start, you can keep raising them up in the supers and then get rid of them when you harvest.


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

honeydrunkapiaries said:


> I put bees directly on pf100 (4.95) and they had no problems drawing it out.


I started with small cell bees in NUCs last year and based on your comments and after reading MB's paragraphs of regression, I'm a bit confused. Can I buy a box of "large cell" bees, put them in a hive with 4.9 small cell foundation that includes a few pulled small cell brood frames in the center and the box bees will naturally start making 4.9 cells on the remaining new foundation frames or do I still have to do a shakedown? :scratch:


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

barberberryfarm said:


> I started with small cell bees in NUCs last year and based on your comments and after reading MB's paragraphs of regression, I'm a bit confused. Can I buy a box of "large cell" bees, put them in a hive with 4.9 small cell foundation that includes a few pulled small cell brood frames in the center and the box bees will naturally start making 4.9 cells on the remaining new foundation frames or do I still have to do a shakedown? :scratch:


This sounds like a shakedown to me - there is no large cell comb left from what you're describing.


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

merince said:


> This sounds like a shakedown to me - there is no large cell comb left from what you're describing.


Thanks for clarifying that. That's correct. All I have is small cell bees, foundation and comb - no large cell comb. I've opted to buy 4 more "small cell" NUCs this spring from a local supplier rather than reserving the much cheaper boxed bees through my club's affiliated Georgia supplier because of this regression issue. I guess I chose the right path as I really didn't want to deal with the regression issues and there are no "small cell" boxed bee suppliers in the South that I am aware of.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Wolf Creek in mid-Tennessee says they offer 4.9 package bees:
http://wolfcreekbees.com/products_bees.asp


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Wolf Creek in mid-Tennessee says they offer 4.9 package bees:
> http://wolfcreekbees.com/products_bees.asp


Thanks RS! I take it you have bought small cell bees from them before and were quite pleased with the results?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I bought 2 packages of Italian bees from Arnold  in Knoxville in 2012 and am pleased with them. Arnold's Italians are described as 'chemical free' and locally raised, but are not 4.9 bees. I have never done business with Wolf Creek, but they were on my evaluation list when I was looking for my first bees.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Can I buy a box of "large cell" bees, put them in a hive with 4.9 small cell foundation that includes a few pulled small cell brood frames in the center and the box bees will naturally start making 4.9 cells on the remaining new foundation frames or do I still have to do a shakedown?

If you put large cell bees on small cell drawncomb, you are done regressing. They will use the small cell comb and raise small cell bees.

If you put large cell bees on PF120s (or PF100s), in my experience they will draw it as it is made (4.95mm) and in a generation you'll have small cell bees.

If you put large cell bees on small cell wax foundation, it's hard to predict. Sometimes they will draw it 4.9mm and sometimes they will make it kind of funky and weird trying to fix it and they will draw an average more like 5.1mm.

If you put large cell bees on foundationess and let them decide it is also hard to predict. Some will build as small as 4.7mm in the core of the brood nest the first try. Some will build it as large as 5.1mm

If you end up with some in between sized comb (like 5.1mm or so from wax 4.9mm or natural comb) the bees raised on that comb will probably draw 4.9mm pretty well. The 5.1mm comb, however will need to be moved to the outside edges or removed in order to get them down to 4.95mm or less in the core of the brood nest, which seems to be the tipping point for Varroa.


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> If you put large cell bees on small cell drawncomb, you are done regressing. They will use the small cell comb and raise small cell bees.


If I use all mediums for my brood chamber with boxed bees and use medium "small cell" comb from my extracted medium honey supers, will that suffice or do I need to use previously drawn brood frames to avoid regression?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If I use all mediums for my brood chamber with boxed bees and use medium "small cell" comb from my extracted medium honey supers, will that suffice

What is the cell size on the comb? Measure across 10 cells and divide by 10

> or do I need to use previously drawn brood frames to avoid regression? 

It doesn't matter if it's "brood frames" but it does matter what size they drew them.


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

Thanks Michael for all your wisdom! I'll definitely make that measurement before proceeding.


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## samsjoy89 (Mar 9, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >Can I buy a box of "large cell" bees, put them in a hive with 4.9 small cell foundation that includes a few pulled small cell brood frames in the center and the box bees will naturally start making 4.9 cells on the remaining new foundation frames or do I still have to do a shakedown?
> 
> If you put large cell bees on small cell wax foundation, it's hard to predict. Sometimes they will draw it 4.9mm and sometimes they will make it kind of funky and weird trying to fix it and they will draw an average more like 5.1mm.
> 
> If you end up with some in between sized comb (like 5.1mm or so from wax 4.9mm or natural comb) the bees raised on that comb will probably draw 4.9mm pretty well. The 5.1mm comb, however will need to be moved to the outside edges or removed in order to get them down to 4.95mm or less in the core of the brood nest, which seems to be the tipping point for Varroa.


OK, so (for pickup in April) I've purchased package bees, (I'm guessing large cell) and I plan to put them on new small cell foundation 4.9mm. It sounds like I'll end up with the two answers above? So I may still possibly need to regress even though I've started with 4.9mm foundation?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So I may still possibly need to regress even though I've started with 4.9mm foundation? 

It is likely. If they were on Pierco, they may make it to 4.9mm in one jump. If they were on the other typical foundation, they probably will not make it in one jump.


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