# Should a new beek start with langs?



## erikebrown

I've become interested in having bees this fall and quite like the idea of top bar hives. I was excited to start with a couple TBHs this spring, but I've been to two local meetings (for two separate groups) and have been told that as a new beekeeper I should start with Langstroth hives and frames. My local association teaches a class starting in January based on Langs, which would likely be beneficial as well.

Wyatt Mangum's extensive book on top bar hives, which I just received yesterday, even says at the end of Chapter 1 "If you are brand new to beekeeping, my advice is generally to get some experience with frame hives first."

This is my first post here, and I'm not trying to start a religious war, I am just looking to keep a couple hives as a hobby. Do you advise gaining the experience and local advice for Langs at the start, or should I plow ahead with my original plans to start with top bar hives.

Thanks in advance,

Erik


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## Charlie B

Yes, start with Langs


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## jwcarlson

I started this year with TBHs, captured swarms to the point where we needed more space so we bought some Langs.

It might come down to what kind of beekeeper you're going to be. If you just want to toss them into a hive and then check on them five months later heading into fall... don't put them in a top bar hive because you'll most likely have a comb disaster on your hands.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Welcome to Beesource!

If you are interested in Top Bars, how about a compromise?  Start with a long hive that resembles a TBH, but with vertical sides (a TTBH instead of a KTBH) and sized to accept standard deep Lang frames.

Another name for this is a 'horizontal hive'. Similar management style to a vanilla TBH, but much easier to move resources between hive styles, and easier to trade (or buy) frames of brood or nucs with other beekeepers in your local area/club. If you later want to establish some pure Lang style hives, just move some brood frames and add a queen (or let them raise their own). 

I have both TBH and lang hives, and I started with two 'angled' KTBH hives. When I later wanted to split into some Langs, I wished I had started with frames in the beginning. Note that with frames in a horizontal hive you can still choose to be foundationless if you want.

More on horizontal hives here: http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm


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## Colino

Charlie B said:


> Yes, start with Langs


X2, I started with TBH's 1st year and they all died through winter. I switched to Langs, and things seem to be going great. 
Colino


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## Marysia2

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Welcome to Beesource!
> 
> If you are interested in Top Bars, how about a compromise?  Start with a long hive that resembles a TBH, but with vertical sides (a TTBH instead of a KTBH) and sized to accept standard deep Lang frames.
> 
> Another name for this is a 'horizontal hive'. Similar management style to a vanilla TBH, but much easier to move resources between hive styles, and easier to trade (or buy) frames of brood or nucs with other beekeepers in your local area/club. If you later want to establish some pure Lang style hives, just move some brood frames and add a queen (or let them raise their own).
> 
> I have both TBH and lang hives, and I started with two 'angled' KTBH hives. When I later wanted to split into some Langs, I wished I had started with frames in the beginning. Note that with frames in a horizontal hive you can still choose to be foundationless if you want.
> 
> More on horizontal hives here: http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm


Yes, everything that Radar Sidetrack says. I love my TBH's but there is no standardization among them, unlike with Langstroths and I regret getting 2 built by 2 different people (different size dimensions so the combs are not interchangeable). 

In fact, just this morning (what a coinkydink!) I met with a carpenter friend and discussed having him build 2 long/horizontal hives so I can use store-bought deep frames.

After I spoke with the carpenter, I found this site with complete instructions on how to make them. 

http://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/long-langstroth-plans.shtml

I do have one Lang but I can't lift 90 pound boxes so they don't work for me. You have to ask yourself why you were interested in TBH's in the first place. I personally *don't* think you should start with Langs if you have a specific reason for wanting to do TBH's. You will have made an investment in the Lang woodenware and it will NOT be transferrable to a TBH if you want to switch later (unless you go to a horizontal Lang). The long Langs use the depth of a Lang deep box - if you did medium it would have to be the length of 5 mediums put side to side. The bees would probably object to that. Spend some time thinking about this before making an investment of time and money.


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## stan.vick

Ditto on all the preceding advice. I started with TBH, did not join a bee club for several years, nor did I read Beesource. It was a rough way to get into being a beekeeper. I now learn and share with others, I now use more langs than TBH. But I have to say that when it was just me and the bees, the bees taught me more faster than anyone else has, it was hard lessons though. So save yourself some headaches and start with langs, but do get a TBH in a couple of years, they are fun to manage and do have their advantages.


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## JakeDatc

Colino said:


> X2, I started with TBH's 1st year and they all died through winter. I switched to Langs, and things seem to be going great.
> Colino


could also have been many other reasons other than the box they were in. 

my gf started with a top bar they did fine, made it through winter, swarmed, put them in another top bar. They made it through the winter, swarmed, put those bees in my lang. they are doing fine too. 

every method has it's advantages and challenges. 

Top bars for beginners lets you open the hive without having to deal with 8-10 frames of bees at a time, less bee rolling issues when you can move comb back before pulling it out, teaches you to respect the fragility of new comb since you will only tip a top bar comb over once and learn, simple crush/strain harvesting without equipment, you can put a viewing window to see what is going on in between inspections. 

just terrible


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## mathesonequip

I tell new beekeepers to start with standard equipment. plan on treating for problems as needed plan on feeding as is best for the bees. you have so much to learn the first 2 or 3 years you do not have to complicate matters... in a few years if you want to you can experiment with other hive types and what ever natural, small-cell, foundationless, treatment free, different management ideas with special types of bees you want.... learn the basics first. over the last 150 years or so the standard langsworth hive has become the standard for a lot of good reasons... in 2 or 3 years we may even have eloquent spokesmen for maroon colored bees that fly upside down.


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## mtforge

I've had TBH's for three years. Only over wintered successfully one time. I'm going to langstroth hives for next year. If I can do ok maybe I'll put a few back into the TBH.


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## erikebrown

Thanks for the welcome and comments, everyone, appreciate it. I may still put a package in a top bar, just because I can. Will probably do one or two langs to work better with the course and because it seems like having two similar hives brings some advantages.

Reading through the forum, it seems like an 8-frame medium lang might be a good choice, as I'm a little worried about the weight. My teenage daughter is interested in helping as well, and the getting started forum mentioned that the smaller size would be easier for her as well.

Thanks again!


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## ruthiesbees

I started with 1 TBH last summer and am now up to 5. My only beekeeping experience is with the top bar and it has been a ton of fun. Please don't think that just because everyone in the bee club says you have to do a Lang for 2 years that you must do that. There may be some very good reasons why you want/should do beekeeping in a top bar hive and it is completely do-able. All 5 of the bee clubs in my area poo-poo the top bar hive. I was even able to arrange for Christie Hemenway to come down and do her talk, and non of the bee clubs wanted to host the event. Now we have a new group in our area just for the top bar hive keepers to get together and talk about their management (www.hamptonroadsbeekeepers.org). I have learned SO much from the observation window in the top bar hive and being able to pull out the bars and inspect without hundreds of bees buzzing me. I did read LOTS of books on the subject, and I do go to 2 bee clubs each month to hear about bee stuff, but most of my knowledge is from hands on experience. (I even reared a bunch of queens this year). Beeline Apiaries and Woodenware sells a TBH kit for about $150 so even if you are not handy with the woodworking tools, you can do a TBH. The good thing about their kit is that the bars fit a standard Lang hive, so those parts are somewhat interchangeable. My bees have their own FB page if you want to see how things have gone for me. The link is at the bottom of my post.


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## Charlie B

Every year we have 20 to 30 new beekeepers and out of that we get two or three that start with TBH. Most if not all regret it and go to langs, sorry, it's just a fact. They rarely go back to TBH because they remembered their frustration. 

Now. This compared to initial Lang users who add a TBH and/or Warre' hive to their apiary (along with their Langs) after several years, much more enjoyable experience and they stick with both, (or all three).


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## JakeDatc

perhaps part of the problem is that anyone that could be a mentor tells them they are going to fail before they even begin and don't give them the help they may need. 

i honestly don't see the big deal, bees live in junk boxes found in someones yard (as evidence from cutouts) with no assistance at all. With someone making them a weather resistant box and providing them good conditions should be fine if the bees themselves would have been fine anywhere. 

thousands of lang hives fail every year too but because they are the commercial standard the losses are somehow disregarded.


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## Charlie B

Not sure if you're taking to me or not Jake but we don't tell anyone they're going to fail. We have several TBH mentors in our club.


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## Michael Bush

The biggest mistake is to try one of each and think that will prove which works better. When you have two identical hives and treat them exactly the same the outcomes are often different so you won't prove anything but you may think you do and then you'll come to some unwarranted conclusions. You also will not have interchangeable parts if one of the hives is struggling. I would get two identical setups so you can see how differently they do and so you can interchange parts.

Even then I would be careful of drawing conclusions. Sometimes you lose your hives because of the weather and sometimes they do well because of the weather. Assuming they died because they were in a TBH or because they were in a Langstroth is probably a wrong conclusion. In my opinion either works fine but frames do have some definite advantages. I would decide what it is you want and keep in mind that it can probably be had with or without frames... A long Langstroth hive with foundationless frames will give you almost everything you get from a top bar hive except being easy to build from scratch with limited tools and woodworking skills. You will get natural comb and no boxes to lift but you will also have frames to tie combs in if they are crooked and the ability to use a Langstroth nuc to get started.


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## beeware10

beekeeping started in straw skeps and evolved into langstroth hives. why go back back to non practical methods.


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## WBVC

Start with which ever hive arrangement interests you the most


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## Marysia2

Michael Bush said:


> A long Langstroth hive with foundationless frames will give you almost everything you get from a top bar hive except being easy to build from scratch with limited tools and woodworking skills. You will get natural comb and no boxes to lift but you will also have frames to tie combs in if they are crooked and the ability to use a Langstroth nuc to get started.


Yes. Having 2 TBH's and one Lang this season started an idea fomenting in my brain. I can maneuver the top bar combs easily, as almost anyone could, but I can't lift a full Lang box filled with bees and honey if it's the 3rd box at the top of the stack. I also wished I could transfer frames of brood and honey from the Lang to the TBH's, etc. It seems a long (horizontal) Lang is the answer (for me). 

I actually don't understand *why* more people don't go this route. The only thing I can think of is possibly it's like real estate in the city - a skyscraper is going to take up less ground area, and use "space" more efficiently?


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## Marysia2

beeware10 said:


> beekeeping started in straw skeps and evolved into langstroth hives. why go back back to non practical methods.


Why are TBH's "non practical"?


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## mathesonequip

Marysia2 said:


> Why are TBH's "non practical"?


top bar hives are ok for some. for commercial use they do not work out. pretty tough to extract and reuse top bar comb. in northern areas they are not as good in the winter, bees tend to move up as they eat thru their honey. the idea of swapping bees and comb around to manage the bee yard is complicated by the top bar system. making up nucs with drawn comb is not real convinent. using foundation for expansion will not work out too well.


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## AL from Georgia

I think you should start with whichever hive interests you the most. My humble opinion only, not from experience.


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## JakeDatc

mathesonequip said:


> top bar hives are ok for some. for commercial use they do not work out. pretty tough to extract and reuse top bar comb. in northern areas they are not as good in the winter, bees tend to move up as they eat thru their honey. the idea of swapping bees and comb around to manage the bee yard is complicated by the top bar system. making up nucs with drawn comb is not real convinent. using foundation for expansion will not work out too well.


But, like many hobbies.. being practical or the "best" doesn't mean it can't be fun and interesting. Antique cars are less safe, less comfortable, less economical, slower etc compared to a nice modern car but people fix them up anyway.


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## Michael Bush

>I actually don't understand *why* more people don't go this route. 

First, most people are not aware of the option. The most visible options are the Langstroth and the top bar hive with not much out there on horizontal hives (in the US). Second, for an outyard they are not as popular because they have management issues that require more frequent interventions (if you want good production and no swarming). But for most hobbiests who have them in their backyard, they would be great.

>they are not as good in the winter

Yet the coldest climates on the planet are where they are most popular... Russia, Finland... I do not agree with this statement at all.


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## RayMarler

Same bees will work in either type of box. It's the box that's different, and the combs hanging from top bars or in frames. Either one works, just different management needed for each. I'd say if you are going to do pollination or want extracted honey, the Langstroth might work out better. It all depends on what you want to use your hives for, whether or not a Lang is best or not. Since you already have the TBH, I'd say start with it and see how it works for you.


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## dudelt

In the U.S. it can be difficult to find a lot of local help with management of a top bar hive. However, with Beesource, you are never alone. If your gut is telling you to do a TBH, do so. I believe that most beekeepers that tell you to stay away from TBH's have little experience with them. While not and expert, I have 4 years experience with both hive types and my best and most memorable experiences in beekeeping are with the top bar hives.


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## Dominic

Something to consider is where you want to get your bees. Do you want to buy nucs? I know in the States, packages seem a lot more common and popular than they are in Canada, but if you want to go with nucs you need to consider what the suppliers are offering.

For the time being, I'm all Lang, as are all of the other local bee breeders as far as I can tell. As much as I want to help the clients that come to me with their projects for Dadant hives or top-bar hives, I just don't have any myself, and buying a nuc with standard deep frames with the hope of fitting it into one of these other hive models... is not something that looks ideal.


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## Marysia2

Dominic said:


> "...buying a nuc with standard deep frames with the hope of fitting it into one of these other hive models... is not something that looks ideal.


No doubt about it, this a drawback of a TBH, and there are a few others. However, as discussed in this thread, a long (horizontal) hive made with the depth/width dimensions of a Lang deep would eliminate the nuc incompatibility issue, as well as a few others. Of course, you would have to build your own or have someone build it - you can't just order them online.

Either way, you should really think about what you want to accomplish, how much time you're willing to put into hive maintenance, etc. before making an investment in equipment. Although...Michael Bush's instructions for a basic TBH are extremely easy and economical - I know a woman who was able to build two TBH's herself with only minimal woodworking skills.


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## Santa Caras

erikebrown said:


> it seems like an 8-frame medium lang might be a good choice, as I'm a little worried about the weight. My teenage daughter is interested in helping as well, and the getting started forum mentioned that the smaller size would be easier for her as well.


Hi Erike,
Welcome to the forum. Great place to come to learn and one of the few sites that have all types of hive bodies to discuss with others. Wont say yay or nay against any of them. Just diffrent approaches. I will say that to base your decesions on what you want to do. Very few "helpers" continue with this. I have "two of everything" but have only used one of everything. Once they have visited with me to an apiary and got stung, most are reluctant to continue! hopefully your daughter is gung-ho and stays that way. LOL. One thing I have found is that the deep brood box in a Lang design is rarely moved unless your putting on a diffrent bottom board. The med supers are what are moved mostly. Anyway good luck with whatever direction you go.


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## Marysia2

Santa Caras said:


> One thing I have found is that the deep brood box in a Lang design is rarely moved...


So how do you inspect the bottom brood deep box without taking off the top brood deep first? Filled with bees and honey, a deep can weigh 80 to 90 pounds, a medium 60 to 80 pounds. My personal lifting weight limit is about 40 or 50 pounds, and with a cloud of angry bees buzzing around me...that's pushing it.
What guys on here have to take into consideration when advising women is: the average woman is shorter than the average man and typically has less upper body strength. 
A stack of 2 deeps on a hive stand (cinder blocks, whatever) is going to be about mid-chest high on a woman. It's very difficult to lift an 80 pound box up from that position and be able to grip it long enough to place it on the ground or another stand. 
I just want women (and older people, people with bad backs or knees, etc.) to take all this into consideration before deciding on what type of hive to use.


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## Adam Foster Collins

I have found that the learning curve is steeper for the new beekeeper who begins with a TBH. I say this because of the lack of standardization, the near impossibility of finding a tbh nuc, and the difficulty there can be in finding a mentor who has kept tbh's for longer than a season or two. That means a lot of experimentation and "going your own way".

That said, I don't think that means it isn't the 'right' way to begin. I found that it was a great way to really learn a lot and fast. It really depends on what kind of person you are. For those who like to dive right in and are not afraid of making some mistakes, then a top bar is great.

I have found that the two approaches (tbh vs lang) are just different. The mistake I see is people trying to compare them directly or trying to make one function like the other. Each has it's strong and weak points.

I'm glad I work both.

Adam


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## TheGeneralsBees

Erik, like you I started with Wyatt's book. I did however ignore his advice about using Langs first and went directly to top bars (two at first and now four). Anytime I had a challenge with hive management I would reread the relevant section of the book or come here to the forum. For me it has been a great experience. This year I added two Langs and discovered that I really don't like working with Langstroth hives. They are heavy, you have to disassemble the hive to look at anything, and they are messy with propolis everywhere...ugh. I am sure that either hive will work well for a beginner that is dedicated to learning the craft. Which one is "best" is a matter of personal taste.


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## Santa Caras

Marysia2 said:


> So how do you inspect the bottom brood deep box without taking off the top brood deep first? .


The only deep I have is the bottom one. From there up, they're med's. And the exception to this is two 5frm nucs I have that are two deeps and a med. 

<a cloud of angry bees buzzing around me>
You should get gentler bees. 

<take all this into consideration before deciding on what type of hive to use>
You'll get no argument from me there. 
Also consider exercise. Too many people equate a gentle 30 min walk in the morning as exercise. Push yourself and use wgts too.
Just because one is considered a senior in todays world doesnt mean that you should view yourself in such a light.


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## shannonswyatt

I think that if you can afford Langs to start you should go that way. Starting with a TBH can be like taking a drink of water from a fire hose. Lots of stuff happen quickly, and a lot of them can be bad. Starting from a nuc is a better way to go for a beginner, and the folks that do have TBH nucs sell them for a high premium. 

On the other hand if you are patient and don't mind potentially missing a year or two you can always put out TBH swarm traps. Swarms do much better than package bees as far as initial buildup (usually). 

As far as standardization goes I don't really see that as a problem. Most people are consistent within their own back yards. And as the saying goes, the best thing about standards is there are so many of them!


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## AdamBeal

I started with a TBH this spring. Reasons were it interested me, I could utilize a viewing window, and it was cheap to build. I did learn a lot it was like drinking from a fire hose though. I still have my bees maybe they will make it through the winter maybe not. Next year though I plan on moving to langs and have a hive ready and going to get some nucs. If my TBH makes it through the winter I will try to split it into a nuc also by cutting comb to fit a deep frame. Ultimately I want to produce more honey. I am not sorry I started out with a top bar I will never forget it and all that I have learned. I think top bars get some new folks into beekeeping that otherwise wouldn't be here which is a good thing overall.


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## Delta Bay

The biggest issue with TBH's is the newbe does not understand natural comb and how the bees want to build it. Having a Long hive using frames doesn't change how they want to build natural comb other than what Michael Bush mentions that you have the frame in place to straighten and tie any crooked combs back into. You have Wyatt's book so if you follow what he does you should be fine with TBH's. If timid toward bees you are probably best getting bee experience using Langs with foundation until you build confidence working with them before using TBH's


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## gjt

I second Mr. Bush's comments. I grew up with horizontal hives and found them to be simply easier, even in smaller commercial operations (<1.000).

As far as what hive design to start with - why don't you find a mentor first, maybe a beekeepers' club and use similar to theirs. This way they can help you out initially. Once you are comfortable, there is no reason you could not switch to something else...



Michael Bush said:


> First, most people are not aware of the option. The most visible options are the Langstroth and the top bar hive with not much out there on horizontal hives (in the US). Second, for an outyard they are not as popular because they have management issues that require more frequent interventions (if you want good production and no swarming). But for most hobbiests who have them in their backyard, they would be great.
> Yet the coldest climates on the planet are where they are most popular... Russia, Finland... I do not agree with this statement at all.


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## jwcarlson

One thing that came to mind that I didn't post in my original reply is how much easier I find inspecting a TBH vs. a Lang. Part of that is I just need to learn how to be a bit more efficient at looking through a Lang, but it also seems significantly "more of a production" than a TBH which is pretty darn easy to look through.


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## Michael Bush

It's always difficult to express the differences because terms like "more work" can get lost or "less work". All in all, horizontal hives a less total labor by a long shot because there are no boxes to lift. But with a fixed capacity they may require more frequent work to manage the more static space. More "frequent" work does not equal "more" work...


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## Phoebee

Our club runs a bee school and recommends that all students start with Langs. But the reason is simply that they try to assign a mentor to each graduate to help them get started, and most of the available mentors run Langs. But we do have a few TBH adherents, and generally manage to hook new beeks up with mentors for whichever type they want to try.

So the decision may come down to ... do you have a mentor, and what do they use?


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## fruitveggirl

I don't think either TBHs or Langs are better than the other. They are both have different pros and cons, so I would weigh which factors are most important to you, and then pick a hive based on that. When I was starting out, that's what I did for myself. I actually put a chart together to help me make my decision. http://happyhourtopbar.blogspot.com/p/why-i-use-top-bar-hives.html

I started with TBHs 2 years ago. I have enjoyed my experience immensely, and I do not find them difficult or impractical. For me, they are actually very easy to work and highly practical because they meet my own personal requirements and goals. On the other hand, I have a friend who bought into Langs because she wasn't given any other choices. She is about my size (i.e., small), and she can't even open her hives without help because they are too heavy. That seems highly impractical, if you ask me. 

The one thing that I do really agree with about TBHs is that there is much less info out there to support new TBH beeks, and it's very hard to find a local mentor who has experience with TBHs. Not having anyone to walk one through can be very intimidating for some people. So if you want TBHs, you sort of need to be an independent sort of person who is willing to be very diligent about doing your own research and reaching out for help from forums like this, and on Biobees, and on Facebook. 

Good luck!


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## ositolud

I have to say your reasoning seems a little hollow. Wyatt Mangum has done fine with a small commercial operation built around tbh's. Different designs are used between south Texas and Canada. As you go north, the hives tend to get deeper providing more space for clustering. As you go south, they become shallower to allow for less weight stress on hot combs. Thus, overwintering in just fine. I have no idea why the tbh system makes equalizing difficult as long as all your hives meet a standard. As for making up nucs, again I have no clue what the problem is. I make my nuc's just fine. Expansion techniques are adapted for top bars. Yes, it will be problematic if you approach it like a lang. That is why you approach like it is a tbh. Finally, the extraction. First, we are being told from multipel sources that we should be turning over our wax supplies much more frequently to cut back on pesticide accumulation, so tbh's actually have a leg up on langs in that matter. Also, don't ever underestimate the ingenuity of humans. As we speak, people are developing extractors that will accept various sized free comb bars.


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## dudelt

Fruitveggirl, Thanks for the link to your blog. What a wonderful analysis comparing the to hives. However, judging by your pictures you missed one critical factor in favor of the TBH, it really is a work of art with bees living inside of it. The artwork is incredible!


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## shannonswyatt

ositolud, It is hard to classify how well someone is doing without seeing their books, accounting books, not bee books. He is a professor of math (as I recall) so he may not depend on his bees to put food on the table!


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## JRG13

I'd like to see a migratory TBH operation..... just for grins.


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## AdamBeal

JRG13 said:


> I'd like to see a migratory TBH operation..... just for grins.


Wyatt Magnum operates a migratory TBH operation.


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## JRG13

Does he take the legs off to move them?


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## AdamBeal

JRG13 said:


> Does he take the legs off to move them?


He doesn't have legs on his (neither do I) here are some pics of his:









I just set mine on a hive stand I made that I also have a lang on.


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## shannonswyatt

Fixed legs on TBHs are not a good idea. It seems like a good idea at the time, but the first time you decide to move it you see the down side.


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## Michael Bush

>Fixed legs on TBHs are not a good idea. It seems like a good idea at the time, but the first time you decide to move it you see the down side.

The first time it blows over in the wind you'll think twice about the legs...


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## Eric Crosby

Hi Micheal, If you have trouble with the wind how about driving a stake in the ground and screw the stake to the stand? I am not advocating fixed legs, but I do enjoy my 24 inch high tables for a number of reasons.... Skunks and my back being primary.


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## JakeDatc

this is how we did my Gfs.. 4x4 posts with 2x6 rails. hive has a block screwed the bottom then that is attached to the rails. that way it can be moved without taking anything apart.


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## Apismellifera

Nice! Simple and stable and good lookin'. Might be a pain to have multiple hives next to each other this way - I like to access the hive from one side, not an end, so for multiple hives I'd make it narrow and long with the hives in a row with the window sides presenting. Make any sense? Or have two hives per stand so you can work them from opposite long sides.

I had some old threaded black pipe conduit and connectors around from a previous project, made a stand of that and put a heavy stainless wire shelf on top, hive on top of that. The shelf makes sure the weight is well distributed. That works well to cinch the whole durned thing together with a strap over the hive and roof, around and through the shelf and horizontal pipes, it would take a lot to tip it over. Bummer is that you have no access to the bottom of the hive and I kinda liked the idea of the jar lid inserts to allow easy install of feeder or pest control jars. I'd use a hole saw and completely recess the lid in the wood, with perhaps a little slidey door to close it off completely when jars were not in use. Makes a couple divits in the hive floor but no big.


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## lorcoalaska

I started with a ktb hive, they drew perfect comb. Easy to inspect. Viewing window is awesome. Just deal with one bar at a time. i am in southeast alaska....and they are still alive. April may be a different story, however. Cheers!!!


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## shannonswyatt

I make my stands a bit different. The are made to work with both TBHs and Langs, although they could get pretty high if you had a bunch of supers on a lang, but really nice for nucs and up to double deeps.


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## Michael Bush

>Hi Micheal, If you have trouble with the wind how about driving a stake in the ground and screw the stake to the stand? 

I'm perfectly happy with it on the ground. I just sit on a toolbox when I work any hive, so it's no trouble to sit on a box and work the top bar hives. Why should I put it up where it catches the wind?


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## mdax

Your ability and comfort with the bees is the most important consideration.

One good reason folks recommend starting with langs is that as a beginner you are going to be less comfortable fixing comb related problems. It seems like not a big deal however when you need to reach into the tbh with both hands and gently pull/cut comb covered with bees you should be at ease and treating the bees gently.
I think that working without gloves goes hand in hand with tbh's, course that's just my experience, different strokes for different folks and all...


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## David LaFerney

You can start beekeeping for almost no money invested with top bar hives - so if the cost of Langstroth frames will keep one from getting started then by all means do what you can afford. You will learn a ton about bees and beekeeping, and it will give you the bee resources to move into another setup later if you want. 

It won't be a wasted experience. Just don't let anyone tell you that the kind of box will relieve you of the need to care for your bees.

The truth is that most people who start don't stick with it, and of those who do most never make any income. Only because they don't commit to those priorities. The point is that worrying about commercial concerns as you are starting out (will you extract honey, pollinate, can you sell the equipment etc) is kind of a cart before the horse situation.

BUT - before you make much (any?) Income you will probably have to move to Langstroth equipment.

Good luck, it's a great hobby.


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## reminniear

Hi Erik,

"Should a new beek start with langs?"

It depends on the beek. 
If you are planning on buying your equipment and/or need a mentor then I would suggest going with langs.
If you are a diy type person then a top bar hive might be for you. 

I am a huge fan of Wyatt Mangum's book. My hives are doing well based off of his design and management technique, compared to a friend who started with langs a year before me. 

I have attended a beekeeping classes at the local community college. I've been to the local beek association meetings. Both of these sources recommended only langs. I have only ever had top bar hives but I have been able to learn things from both of these sources.

My advice is to get as much information as you can about bees. It's worth learning about how lang keepers do things, because it's very close to what you'll do as a top bar beek.

The biggest difference between the 2 hive types is how you have to handle the comb. Freshly drawn comb is fragile and will fall off the bar if not handled correctly.


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## cerezha

I agree with many above. From my hobbyist prospective:
- equipment must be interchangeable, does not matter is it frame or bar - you need to be able to move comb from one hive to another easy;
- design of the hive must be so, that it can be expanded (or big enough from the beginning) - we start small and then suddenly facing the situation that we need 2x bigger beehive. 

Bees do great in horizontal hives, but it should be at least 30 deep frames long. I personally, "invented" something between TB and Lang - horizontal or vertical hive with bars instead frames. It works fine to me but I had a few collapsed honeycombs last summer in the heat. The reason, I am using bars is because I believe that natural comb is beneficial to my bees. Good luck!


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## Eric Crosby

"I'm perfectly happy with it on the ground. I just sit on a toolbox when I work any hive, so it's no trouble to sit on a box and work the top bar hives. Why should I put it up where it catches the wind?" M Bush

Sorry I thought I recalled seeing some of your photos with nuc boxes up on some rails, and that you kept them higher to be above skunks. Skunks are a big problem here. 

EC


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## Michael Bush

>Sorry I thought I recalled seeing some of your photos with nuc boxes up on some rails, and that you kept them higher to be above skunks. Skunks are a big problem here. 

Maybe this one? http://www.bushfarms.com/images/AssortedWidths.JPG

I just set them up there to take a picture of a variety of sizes.

Mating nucs get stacked apartment style.
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/TwoByFourMatingNucs.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/TwoByFourNuc2.jpg

Which may not be the most efficient use of labor, but it doesn't take much room or as many stands.


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