# Split Gone Wrong?



## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

Did you keep them in the same yard? There's a chance the foragers went back to the original hive location, then started coming back for the stores. The frame of bees left is all nurse bees, probably. The robbed hive will eventually succumb to the invaders and lose all motivation and become despondent.

You have some options, if you haven't requeened the other hive you can recombine, or you could give it a frame of capped brood and move it to a yard 2 miles or more away and feed like crazy both pollen and syrup. Obviously reduce the entrance.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You always have to account for drift by either shaking in extra bees or some other plan to keep the new location from being depleted of bees. You now need to either steal some emerging brood and bees for them or recombine, depending on what you have for resources to work with.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>Did you keep them in the same yard? There's a chance the foragers went back to the original hive location,

This is a cause of many failed splits. 

Recombine back to the original. You can use a screened shim while you assess them for a queen and suppress a laying worker (which they may be getting close). 

I find four frames splits with a few shakes of bees makes an easy nuc that can defend itself. Sometimes I may move the original hive and keep the split in it's place. 

Also if you can move them to another yard, if not force re-orientate with a lid or bottom board leaning against the front of the hive will orientate more bees than other methods.


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## dharmaworker (Jul 2, 2015)

I kept them in the same yard, maybe 75' away. Along with the two brood frames and bees on them, I shook maybe 2 frames of additional bees in there and reduced the entrance to 1 inch. I knew I would have some drifters but hoped the emerging bees would stick with the hive, which could actually be whats left. Why she isn't laying anything or didn't immediately start laying is what concerns me. The honey frame I placed in the nuc was on the outer side, maybe it was too far for them to feed, same with the pollen. 

The parent hive I left several swarm cells intact so I'm guessing there is a queen in there by now, not sure if she's laying yet. If she's laying maybe I can take at least one frame of eggs and brood? Will that encourage her? I'm not sure what makes that situation different than the split I made. That parent hive is very strong so I do have some leverage.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

it takes 45 days to get a laying queen from egg.
give them time, they won't grow any faster.
15 days is way way to soon.
learn to be patient.


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## dharmaworker (Jul 2, 2015)

The queen in the NUC was from an established hive. I found open cells in that parent hive, which is why I questioned her fertility. 
The NUC has no brood, eggs or larve or honey and maybe 1 frame of bees, Sorry if I seem impatient...


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

They have no stores and are completely demoralized. Either she's not going to lay because no bees are feeding her or there's nothing to feed the larvae, or the few bees left are cannibalizing the few eggs she is laying. You have to somehow feed pollen patty and syrup without it getting robbed(moving it far away, closing it up for a day or two, or putting a robber screen on and hoping for the best), or you have to recombine.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

How many cells did you see? She could've been in the process of being superceded and the nuc was the end of her. I typically move all my splits to a separate yard now as the drift issues are always bad, especially if there is not a good flow going. Actually, the drifting isn't the worst part, its the parent hive robbing them out like you witnessed.


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## dharmaworker (Jul 2, 2015)

Found about 4 cells - she was chewing one when I found her, which kinda made me think she was a new queen maybe, I have a pic, someone can tell her age?


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

DavidZ said:


> it takes 45 days to get a laying queen from egg.
> give them time, they won't grow any faster.
> 15 days is way way to soon.
> learn to be patient.


From queen made from an egg till her first brood emerges is 45 days. 
From egg to emerged queen is 16 days. Usually bred and laying in a week. From the time we put cells in until we are harvesting bred queens is 18 days. She has been laying and we usually have a lot of capped brood from the new queen by then. I would say 99% of the time this is true of the virgins that make it back. SO I would say most are bred and laying within 22 to 25 days from egg. One breeder I know harvests 14 days from introduction of cell. We are at 18. I believe Michael Palmer is at 16 days from introduction of the cell. We introduce our cells on the 10th day after graft or 14 day old cell. Weather plays a huge part of course. If she cant fly she can't breed. But normal conditions 7 to 9 days after the cell is introduced she is back and laying. 21 days later her brood starts emerging.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

What Branman and JRG13 said.


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## Arlo (Sep 16, 2009)

Went into my split today I have 4 nice queen cells that are capped so I should have a virgin by this weekend hoping my weather gets better so she can get mated.


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## dharmaworker (Jul 2, 2015)

I'm making a robbing screen now. I plan to move them Across town either tonight or tomorrow night. Do I need to add any brood/bees or anything? I placed a syrup jar on it yesterday and I have pollen patties I plan to use as well once it's moved. 
Thanks for your help


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

DavidZ said:


> it takes 45 days to get a laying queen from egg.


I have found it to be closer to 24 to 28 days before a queen is laying. Worker brood hatching in 21 days for a total from a new queen to new hatching brood about 45 days. 

The numbers I remember from Mr. Bush were closer to these.

Caste Hatch Cap Emerge	
Queen 3½ days 8 days +-1 16 days +-2 Laying 28 days +-5
Worker 3½ days 9 days +-1 20 days +-1 Foraging 42 days +-7
Drone 3½ days 10 days +-1 24 days +-1 Flying to DCA 38 days +-5
If the bees start with just hatched larvae (4 days from when it was laid) you can subtract 4 days from the queen chart above you get about 24 days +-5 days. If you find a capped queen cell you could see eggs from that queen in as little as 20 days.


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## dharmaworker (Jul 2, 2015)

I doubt the nuc will last 20 days


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