# Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

NY used to have some restrictions so for many years I would go to nearby VT and buy it at the State-run liquor store. To buy it I would have make a written declaration with my name and address and state the reason for needing it, which in my case, was cleaning books. I recently saw something labeled "Everclear" in a small NY liquor store and the clerk said anybody can buy it. Perhaps that's the lower-proof variety, not grain alcohol?

Nancy


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

My understanding is that 190 proof is available in Tennessee, but TN is a long drive from Richmond. 

If you have access to a military PX, you may be able to buy 190 proof in Virginia. PXs don't have to follow state rules as they are Federal.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Some claimed that fogging with OA will work some said it does not. So what is the
real truth here? Have seen many you tube vids on the how to.


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Curious about this post. Is the Everclear to dissolve to propolis or to use in the OA fogger? I presume it is to dissolve the propolis.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Off label in the US.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Not sure I see any advantage over the difficultly and additional cost to get 95% vs. 75% alcohol. Or even cheap 40% vodka.

Swarm traps will make little to no difference in percent swarms caught, if they are propolised or not. Your biggest differences will be brood comb, swarm lure and highth of the trap, in that order. 

As far as vaporizing pure alcohol with a heat source might want to thoroughly test it first. might turn a hive in to an internal combustion engine or a fogging flame thrower. But do film it so you can post to you tube.

"Flammability. An ethanol-water solution that contains 40% alcohol by weight will catch fire if heated to about 26 °C (79 °F) and if an ignition source is applied to it. This is called its flash point. The flash point of pure ethanol is 16.60 °C (61.88 °F), less than average room temperature."


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

Agree with FlowerPlanter on key trap components except maybe location rather than height. To avoid the danger with the alcohol, I'd dilute and consume it while I melted a little wax and propolis inside the trap with a heat gun/hair dryer.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

I haven't bought Everclear since College. I used it to "clean my books " too. Yes it is available in Vermont and you don't have to sign anything to get it. J


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## GoodyFarms (Jul 10, 2016)

Fair warning, be careful with the 190 proof alcohol and make sure it doesn't include adulterants/denaturants. Often time lab grade 95% ethanol contains things like added methanol or IPA which wouldn't likely be an issue, but they also put Methyl Isobutyl Ketone, methyl ethyl ketone, acetone or Denatonium. If it's true Everclear, you're good to go.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*.Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

Thanks for all the responses. The pure ethanol is used to both disolve the propolis to make a tincture and to disolve the OA for use in a fogger. I have no idea if it works but if if OA works at all, then this is just another mode of delivery. Denatured alcohol has methyl alcohol added and is poisonous. I do not rely on propolis as an attractant for the traps. Drawn comb and LGO have worked well for me. Just something else I wanted to try. If I drank the Everclear, I'd never get the traps hung.

Very familiar with the flammability of alcohol. Was a closet pyro when I was in High School (many years ago).:lookout:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

I don't want to try the fogger method because so many did not get a good result. Maybe it is not working or
the mites still inside the cap broods. Either way let us know your final result when you see the mite drop.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

Back in my younger days, I drank a shot of Everclear on a dare. Burned like fire going down and I could feel a buzz in about 30 seconds. I won't do that again.

But, I have been mite-free ever since.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



JWPalmer said:


> I have no idea if it works but if if OA works at all, then this is just another mode of delivery.


There is no doubt that OAV is highly effective at killing mites with no harm to the bees. Whether fogging with OA kills enough mites to be a worthwhile treatment is still an open question.

The early adoptors of OA fogging have not been reporting great success. That is, the few that do report back with their results. Most users seem to rave about how awesome OA fogging is, but then make up an excuse on why they can't do follow up mite checks, and then we never hear back from them.

Please keep us posted as to your results.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

OA and Everclear = drunk bees on acid.


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## John D. (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

Yesterday, 20 Sept. 2017, on Randy Oliver's site Scientific Beekeeping there is a post from Bee-L describing an experiment using OAV for mites. The results do not appear encouraging.

I have never used OAV, but am interested in hearing the response from those who are more experienced in using this treatment.


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## GoodyFarms (Jul 10, 2016)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



John D. said:


> Yesterday, 20 Sept. 2017, on Randy Oliver's site Scientific Beekeeping there is a post from Bee-L describing an experiment using OAV for mites. The results do not appear encouraging.
> .


Can you please provide a link? I went to his site and could not find the post/update you are referring to.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

The article speaks to fogging OA

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-dribble-tips/


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

Do you mean the shop towels and oa powder experiment? If it is oaVapor then it works! I've invented an oav
gadget under the hive just for the purpose of using oa alone. Too bad the mites inside the cap broods cannot be kill too.


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## Bolichsbees (Jul 31, 2016)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

Not wanting to hijack this thread, I posted a topic on OA Fogging and the results of this study. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?340742-Finally-a-scientific-study-kind-of

Any advocates of this method should consider the post. Thx

bb


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

lol... cracks me up
DR Cryberg has posted on the subject many times here on BS and has been largely blown off ....now that Randy Olver quotes him form a different forum every one wants to pay attention? 
[


Richard Cryberg said:


> I already reported I tried OA fogged in water. Ten nucs treated and ten nuc controls untreated all in the same yard. Treated once a week for eight weeks. I did alcohol washes on all 20 at the end of the treatment. I saw zero mite control. The highest mite count I got was on a treated hive at 4%. Mean mite count for treated nucs the same as untreated. All started with mite counts of 1% or less mid May. All were 1% or higher at the end. Experiment started early June. I also did tests to prove the OA survived the fogger getting about a 70% recovery. I spent hours fooling with the fogger learning how to deliver a consistent dose every trigger pull which is not as simple as it sounds. Waited 20 seconds between trigger pulls to make sure the fogger was back up to temp. Conclusion: Tedious, slow, ineffective. A pan vaporizer would have been faster and would have killed mites.


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## GoodyFarms (Jul 10, 2016)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

"Also, oxalic acid will react very rapidly with alcohol make the ester and the ester will very rapidly decarboxylate at temps as low as 100 deg C to ethyl formate which is not going to kill mites. "

Dr. Cryberg's assertion that the reason that it's ineffective is it's esterification with ethanol is just incorrect. Without a catalyst and more favorable conditions (i.e. higher concentrated ethanol), the reverse reaction of hydrolysis of any ester that forms will be favored. Even if ethyl formate is formed, at 100 deg C surrounded by water in an acidic environment it's going to decompose to formic acid and ethanol...and formic acid as we all know does kill mites. I'm not saying his findings aren't sound, but his mechanism for the lack of effect of fogged-OAV has some holes.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

Wiki says: 

As of 2015, the sale of 190 proof Everclear is prohibited in Alaska, California, Florida, Maine, Massachusetts, Hawaii, Iowa, Michigan, Nevada, Ohio, Washington, North Carolina, New Hampshire, and Minnesota.

So just call some liquor stores neighboring legal states and see if they carry it. I saw a bottle of Everclear on the shelf of a liquor store located in Missouri just last week. Using high proof alcohol in a fogger sounds like an explosion waiting to happen to me. Why would anyone want to do that? Is it some kind of new method that people are doing? Why are we re-inventing the wheel when OA vaporization and dribble method are proven to be very effective? 

As as far a dissolving propolis, I have found that plain 80 proof vodka works fine.


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## Fishmaster50 (Apr 30, 2015)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

I'm in pa and they don't sell it here without permit. I got mine on Amazon. Said all taxes and other stuff was taken care of. I am doing the oa vaporizer/fogged and seems to be working well. I have one treatment in so far.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

The kind folks with the Virginia ABC have finally granted me a permit to purchase the 190 proof Everclear. I will be buying a fogger and OA shortly and treating. Apivar strips came out two weeks ago. All my hives are SBB so once I start, I will be able to provide mite drop numbers. I have no dog in this fight so if it doesn't kill the mites, I will say so. The initial plan will be once every 5 days for three weeks. Then once every two weeks for the next month. I plan on dropping in Apivar again in the spring if I still have mites falling in any numbers. Timing is critical as i need the strips out by April 1st to set the supers mid-April.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

Well, JWP, if it doesn't work, you can always use the remaining Everclear to clean your books. It does a bang-up job of it.

Nancy


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



GoodyFarms said:


> .and formic acid as we all know does kill mites


The amount of formic you get from mis-handling oxalic during a treatment is a tiny fraction of the amount that goes in for a formic treatment. Wether it's from chemical reaction, or from overheating the OA, you will not have nearly the amount of formic required to effectively manage mites.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

I ordered 5# of OA from Florida Labs, under $15 with free shipping. Went to the ABC store and ordered the 190 Everclear. Guy behind the counter looked at me like yeah right, for the bees. Younger guy. I bet he used to clean a lot of books too. Anyhow, things are coming together to do the first treatment in about two weeks. I will start with clean sticky boards to I can get good counts on the two hives I will be treating. These are the ones I pulled the Apivar from two weeks ago. The other hive and the two remaining nucs have strips in them now. May hit them with the oav to see if mite drop spikes temporarily.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

Picked up the Burgess fogger yesterday. $45.00 at Walmart. Everclear should be here Wednesday. I finally read Randy Oliver's paper with Dr. *****, I mean Cryberg's report. I couldn't stop laughing at all the liberties he took in his "scientific" testing. The most glaring was the switching to water as a solvent for the oa. Then he claims the fogger didn't vaporize the solution properly and much of it came out as a liquid. DUH. The fogger was not designed to be used with water based chemicals. Maybe that is why he had to spend several hours learning how to use it. Due to this fundamental change, he unknowingly changed the dry aerosol of the ethanol/oa into a fine (hot) mist. So he literally steamed the bees with oa. Never heard THAT mentioned as a treatment option. I could go on but it is hard to do all this typing on a cell phone. For my part, there won't be starting sugar roll percentages. There will simply be mite drop per 24 hours with a goal of having the numbers continually decreasing. I will do a follow up sugar roll after the end of treatment to see if it was effective.


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## Gumpy (Mar 30, 2016)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



JWPalmer said:


> For my part, there won't be starting sugar roll percentages. There will simply be mite drop per 24 hours with a goal of having the numbers continually decreasing. I will do a follow up sugar roll after the end of treatment to see if it was effective.


How can you do a final comparison for effectiveness if you don't have a preliminary starting point to compare to? Yes, counting dead mites will tell you if mites are dying, but unless you know what your starting ratio is, you cannot make a judgement on effectiveness based on a final sugar roll. 

Sugar roll takes 5 minutes. Do the experiment properly. Collect the data prior to commencement.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

Good morning all. Ron Obvious here. Somehow, I fail to see the logic in putting alcohol in any manner into your hives. Isn't that what you use to kill bees with in an alcohol wash? Just because some idiot on the internet says it works and is a great idea does not mean it is a good idea or that it works.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

The alcohol is simply a solvent. As it goes through the fogger it is completely evaporated so all that that remains is the aerosolized oa. At least in theory.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

Apologies for the name calling. You made the right decision.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

I bought a fogger and food grade mineral oil and fogged hives in one yard every two weeks for the whole summer. I should have not wasted my time but hindsight is 20/20. I did switch over to using 190 proof everclear and OA right before the weather got cold here and it worked with great success. The OA fogging didnt work too well the first time but the second time (5 days later) it rained mites. I havent been able to fog the hives any more due to cold weather and the occasional warm day we have doesnt coincide with me being able to go fogging. 

OA can be hard on queens just like any other treatment so with it being this late in the season with 0 chance of getting a mated queen I'm not going to treat again until mid spring even if the weather is such that the colonies break cluster.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



Nabber86 said:


> As as far a dissolving propolis, I have found that plain 80 proof vodka works fine.


I agree, 80 - 100 proof vodka works the best. The tincture doesn't come out real harsh like it does with everclear.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

I'll pick up some good vodka tomorrow also. That I'll drink, with or without propolis.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



> The most glaring was the switching to water as a solvent for the oa


DRRC's work with a foger happened BEFORE this internet fad hit, 



> The fogger was not designed to be used with water based chemicals


Plent of water based inscet fog fulids on the market for them.
The foggers work very well with water based chems, you see them used outdoors all the time with water based theartitial fog juice. Corn mazes, mitiaraly training facilitys, and film sets come to mind



> Isn't that what you use to kill bees with in an alcohol wash?


people dround in bathtubs yet drink water, big difrence between dumping 300 bees in 500ml of liquid and spreading the vapor of 5ml threw out a hive

I go back to the question, why spend the $$ on everclear? why no just rubbing alcohol. I have seen no work that says ethonall is less toxic then methonall or isopropail 


> The alcohol is simply a solvent. As it goes through the fogger it is completely evaporated


alcohol is used (as is glyseren) as it dissolves much more OA then water



> I bought a fogger and food grade mineral oil and fogged hives in one yard every two weeks for the whole summer. I should have not wasted my time but hindsight is 20/20. I did switch over to using 190 proof everclear and OA right before the weather got cold here and it worked with great success. The OA fogging didnt work too well the first time but the second time (5 days later) it rained mites


I don't get the universal appeal of the fogger... but its there
With respect, you have no data to support the


> it worked with great success


 claim and subjunctive snipets like this is how FGMO still haunts us.
You don't know the mites you started with or how many are left.
lets assume you counts were high as many would be with out effective treatment this time of year, my neighbor was in the 50s per 300 
so call it a nice round 15 per 100 for the sake of math, the forger work force has been dumped and your looking a round 15k pop
(15,000/100)*(15)=2250
you could rain 1000+ mites and still not make a suffacant dent in the population 
Now if you go do a wash, and your counts are low thats one thing and gives us some objective data, sadly the few who have done so have not had fabuiabul results, but the sample size has been small so the jurys stillout


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



msl said:


> I don't get the universal appeal of the fogger... but its there
> With respect, you have no data to support the claim and subjunctive snipets like this is how FGMO still haunts us.
> You don't know the mites you started with or how many are left.
> lets assume you counts were high as many would be with out effective treatment this time of year, my neighbor was in the 50s per 300
> ...


Well I guess if I have deadouts from mites during the winter you can pat yourself on the back


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

@rwurster:

I have no opinion regarding fogging w/ or w/o Everclear, but one thing you wrote caught my eye:



> OA can be hard on queens just like any other treatment


I haven't found that OA vaporization can be hard on queens, at all, quite the contrary actually. OA dribbling is reported to be, but I don't use that so I have no personal data to offer. 

It would be a shame if an over-broad characterization, like your quote above, gets circulated, because the one time of the year when OAV works exceptionally well is during the broodless period of early winter. Erroneous, and unsupported, concerns over queen loss during that period might deter some beekeepers from using OAV at the precise time when it will do the most good, and at very, very low risk to the colony, including the queen.

Nancy


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



enjambres said:


> It would be a shame if an over-broad characterization, like your quote above, gets circulated, because the one time of the year when OAV works exceptionally well is during the broodless period of early winter. Erroneous, and unsupported, concerns over queen loss during that period might deter some beekeepers from using OAV at the precise time when it will do the most good, and at very, very low risk to the colony, including the queen.
> Nancy


Speaking of erroneous and unsupported claims... That's odd because the beekeepers in my area that I have talked to have noticed the same thing and I don't mean first year, second year, third year beekeepers. I'm saying this from my experience as are the people that I've spoken with. If your experience is different it doesnt make your all encompassing blanket fact any more valid than anyone elses. Let me check my calander to see if its early winter yet.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



rwurster said:


> Well I guess if I have deadouts from mites during the winter you can pat yourself on the back


far from the intent..
you got suckered in to one fad treatment to what may be another 
Even with "proven" treatments its a smart move to check the mite load after words to insure it was successful. 
Your hives being alive or dead come spring don't necessary mean the treatment worked/didn't work

a late fall/winter bloodless and no chance of replacing the queen OA treatment is more or less the international standard of use.
all beekeeping is local....maby Pueblo is diffrent (Ok well pueblo is very "differnt" :lpf

there have been tons of studys on OAV and queens, none have come to that conulstion.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



rwurster said:


> OA can be hard on queens just like any other treatment ....


Are you referring to OAD or OAV?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

To answer a few points. 

I dont know when Dr. Cryberg did his experiment. I do know that RO published a paper with those results in Sept. of this year. I assumed the data was at least reasonably current.

The types of fog machines mentioned, i. e., corn mazes, are entirely different from insect foggers which typically vaporize an oil based insecticide such as malathion for the control of mosquitoes. I have used the Burgess fogger over 30 years ago for just that purpose.

Methyl alcohol and iso-propyl alcohol are poisonous. No chance of me using that! Yes oa dissolves much more readily in ethanol than in water. And ethanol has a much lower specific heat than water so it can be used in the fogger. Glycerine might be able to be used but someone else can try that.

The appeal is that it takes about 5 seconds to treat a hive and you don't have to drag around a car battery or long extension cord.

Straight mineral oil has been proven not to work, that was a brief fad made popular by Don the Fat Bee Man. He later retracted his endorsement of that treatment. That was the point of the other poster who switched to oa fog and had a huge mite drop.


In the interest of more informative results, I will be doing a powdered sugar roll count prior to starting my treatment. From my perspective, the only number that matters is how many per hundred are still alive when done. Goal is 0-1. Since the sugar roll only gets about 90% of the mites, I may still do an alcohol wash in the spring to get accurate numbers going into the flow.

Finally, if anyone wants to make a claim like say, oa causes EFB or is hard on queens, please either cite your source for that information or provide detailed first hand experience that lead you to come to that conclusion. We are all here to learn, not take pot shots at each other.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



JWPalmer said:


> ...
> Methyl alcohol and iso-propyl alcohol are poisonous. No chance of me using that! Yes oa dissolves much more readily in ethanol than in water. And ethanol has a much lower specific heat than water so it can be used in the fogger. Glycerine might be able to be used but someone else can try that.
> ...


Denatured alcohol is Ethanol mixed with Methanol. Besides being a solvent it is commonly used as marine stove fuel.
Is there a reason denatured alcohol is out of the running?

By the way - following this thread with interest :thumbsup:


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

Hey Mike, glad to see you following this thread. My belief is that there is a sufficient amount of methanol in the denatured alcohol to make it poisonous to the bees as well. Also, I heard that it is not a good idea to "clean your books" with it.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



> Methyl alcohol and iso-propyl alcohol are poisonous. No chance of me using that!


As is Ethanol and OA
There are all sorts of things that effect one, and not the other, Rhododendron honey comes to mind..
Chocolate is poisonous to dogs, and Avocados are poisons to birds. Point is you picking the carrier based on human biology not the bees.

There is actually a lot of work done on bees and ethanol, and it would seem far form inconious to them 


> These ethanol-induced changes in behavior may reflect effects on the central nervous system similar to the previously observed effects of food poisoning with sublethal doses of insecticides


Bozic J.; Abramson C.I.; Bedencic M. (2006).


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## Eyeman (Oct 23, 2016)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



> OA can be hard on queens just like any other treatment so with it being this late in the season with 0 chance of getting a mated queen I'm not going to treat again until mid spring even if the weather is such that the colonies break cluster.


Oxalic acid vaporization should be considered a 'soft' treatment when compared with Thymol and formic acid.
Take a look at this beeculture review article which shows that there is no increase in bee mortality following treatment. Queens losses are no an issue.
http://www.beeculture.com/sublimation/


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

Fair points. Truth is the ethanol was chosen for two reasons, first is that is what other have tried and claimed it worked. Second is oxalic acid's solubility in EA over water. I don't know if this works well, a little, or not at all. But here's the thing. I am willing to try it and post my results. The way I see it, unless someone has tried it themselves and failed, any naysaying is pure conjecture by someone who should really be sitting back and hoping the results are positive.

BTW, I know that David at Barnyard Bees is using this and, as of last week, was very happy with his results and told me so when I asked.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

LOL
Last year he was telling every one to fog with mineral oil and how happy he was with it !!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZfIqG9bhP4
NOT a good source. Not some one who is backing or testing there claims.
The pure fact he was pushing FGMO in 2016, and many outhers are still trying it, shows just how bad people want to beleave in a fogger cure, in the face of all evidence to the contrary.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



Eyeman said:


> Oxalic acid vaporization should be considered a 'soft' treatment when compared with Thymol and formic acid.
> Take a look at this beeculture review article which shows that there is no increase in bee mortality following treatment. Queens losses are no an issue.
> http://www.beeculture.com/sublimation/


Lol really? I mean you read what I said I did and understood it right? Which means you know I use a fogger to sublimate my OA and by figure 3 from the link which you so kindly shared with the group we can see that low doses and high doses of OA have queenless colonies in the spring. 20 - 30% is what I've experienced. Since its hard to control the "dose" with a fogger it looks like I'm either getting too little or too much OA sublimated into the hive. But instead of trying to figure that impossible set of circumstances out we're cherry picking little snippets of posts without having read or understood a post. But to be fair, thats pretty typical of BS bs to be honest. So in that spirit we have



JWPalmer said:


> oa causes EFB


Undeniable truth from another post �� hope that erronious, unsupported, and overbroad generalization doesnt go viral  Good thing theres internet hucksters here to figure things like that out otherwise :ws:


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Which means you know I use a fogger to sublimate my OA


No, you evaporate it out of suspension and aerosol it, radically different crystal sizes and recovery rates. ie OAV is about 50% OA/water in a foger is 70%


> Since its hard to control the "dose" with a fogger it looks like I'm either getting too little or too much OA sublimated into the hive. But instead of trying to figure that impossible set of circumstance


s
sorry buddy, welcome to medicine, getting to a therapeutic dose but not a lethal dose is part of the equation…
a right mix, the right temp, the fogger pump doesn’t seem too far off on the control subject… it’s a pump…. Pump it once and it moves X amount (2.5 cc iirr)… hardly an issue vs the 5cc per seam “eyeball” of OAD or the spoon measurement of OAV
the issue it would seem is the wild card “hold my beer and watch this I am going to treat my bees on youtube” factor…


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

msl said:


> No, you evaporate it out of suspension and aerosol it, radically different crystal sizes and recovery rates. ie OAV is about 50% OA/water in a foger is 70%
> s
> sorry buddy, welcome to medicine, getting to a therapeutic dose but not a lethal dose is part of the equation…
> a right mix, the right temp, the fogger pump doesn’t seem too far off on the control subject… it’s a pump…. Pump it once and it moves X amount (2.5 cc iirr)… hardly an issue vs the 5cc per seam “eyeball” of OAD or the spoon measurement of OAV
> the issue it would seem is the wild card “hold my beer and watch this I am going to treat my bees on youtube” factor…


Its so good to know how well versed you are with using OA through fogger , clearly you have used one extensively. Since youre an expert why dont you make a youtube video on how you do it correctly, along with the calculations, since you know how to make it work flawlessly under any temp/pressure/mixture/location/celestial alignment/condition. You can show how your results and techniques match up to any "scientific" study of your own choosing. I'll hold your beer while you do it. Its only medicine right? and youre obviously the bee doctor


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## Eyeman (Oct 23, 2016)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



rwurster said:


> Lol really? I mean you read what I said I did and understood it right? Which means you know I use a fogger to sublimate my OA and by figure 3 from the link which you so kindly shared with the group we can see that low doses and high doses of OA have queenless colonies in the spring. 20 - 30% is what I've experienced. Since its hard to control the "dose" with a fogger it looks like I'm either getting too little or too much OA sublimated into the hive. But instead of trying to figure that impossible set of circumstances out we're cherry picking little snippets of posts without having read or understood a post. But to be fair, thats pretty typical of BS bs to be honest. So in that spirit we have
> 
> 
> 
> Undeniable truth from another post �� hope that erronious, unsupported, and overbroad generalization doesnt go viral  Good thing theres internet hucksters here to figure things like that out otherwise :ws:


In the control group 80% survived the winter and in the OAV group 95% survived. If you taken into account the 3 colonies that were queenless in the OAV group then there was still an 87.5% survival and queen right.
No real evidence there that OAV is toxic to queens?
Those of use that use OAV regularly during the active season haven't come across queen losses, well it doesn't seem to get reported on the forum.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

its been talked about on this forum as far back as 2003.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...l-and-fogger-oil&highlight=oxalic+acid+fogger
the pattern has been the same for 14 years
some one has great idea, trys it, thinks its great, and will get back with some counts....Then dissapears 

I REALY want it to work, and would be thrilled if it did. 
But the thought here is if it did work, EVERY ONE would be doing it by now and it would be a standard item.
For what ever reason foggers go hand in hand with keepers who don't keep mite counts, and the few that have kept counts desided the treatment wasn't working and tried something elce... Not a single person has come back with washes that showed the treatment was effective

Take it for what its worth, treat your bees how ever you wish, don't sell others on snake oil with out subjetive data


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Oops, it looks like I've gone from frequent poster with a plan to share data on a supposed treatment to a slippery slimey snake oil saleman that will disappear before your very eyes. Ok, here it is, the big sell. Y'all don't try this at home. Period. I wish I could say this eloquently, but to heck with it. How is anyone to believe the results of a few beekeepers that have tried a new teqnique and failed when so many can't even put in a strip of Apivar correctly and the instructions are right on the package? As I said before, if it doesn't work like I expect it to, I will report that. But now I think that if it does work, I'll just keep that my little secret. After all, you won't believe me anyhow. Nah, that would be selfish. The crow pie is in the oven. What remains to be seen is whether I will be serving it or eating it myself.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

msl said:


> its been talked about on this forum as far back as 2003.
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...l-and-fogger-oil&highlight=oxalic+acid+fogger


Oh come on, fourteen years of discussion and the best example is one in which Mike Bush cautions the OA may be corrosive to the fogger? Meanwhile, we have folks apparently setting their hives on fire by leaving an OAV wand in for too long...

And speaking of things that everyone would aready be doing, how would you like to have been the very first person to try eating an oyster? Brave soul he or she was, for sure.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

lol it was the 1st use of it on the site, not the best. 

my last post was not directed at you(as I think you well know) 
your stated plan is to come back with data( I do wish you would do a pre treatment roll), you have a stated confirmation bias but your going to collect objective data and submit it here for peer review .... 
There is no crow then, there is no right/wrong. No mater the results, your work advances the fight against the mite. and THAT is why I am pushing people


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

msl said:


> ....
> the pattern has been the same for 14 years
> some one has great idea, trys it, thinks its great, and will get back with some counts....Then dissapears
> ...


 It's MONSANTO's revenge!

sorry, I'm not making fun of you - that sentence just struck me that way 
I know what you mean though. I have watched a number of threads in which I hoped to hear the results and it seemed to never show up.

I don't think this is the same though, JWPalmer is a steady member.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

MikeJ said:


> JWPalmer is a steady member.


How steady can he be with 190 proof???


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I also feign a lot of indignation which is really just stoking the fires. I too have been frustrated that people fail to report back on a variety of things. We all learn from other's successes and failures. There is a bias towards obtaining a positive result. However that is no excuse for skewing data. It will cause me to keep at it if my first attempts are less than stellar.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)




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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

msl said:


> THAT is why I am pushing people


Yeah we noticed how you troll all the OA threads. Like I said:

>Its so good to know how well versed you are with using OA through fogger , clearly you have used one extensively. Since youre an expert why dont you make a youtube video on how you do it correctly, along with the calculations, since you know how to make it work flawlessly under any temp/pressure/mixture/location/celestial alignment/condition. You can show how your results and techniques match up to any "scientific" study of your own choosing. I'll hold your beer while you do it. Its only medicine right? and youre obviously the bee doctor

Please do share your invaluable, scientific insight with the rest of the group :gh: Being armchair OA fogging bandits who have no real experience but a lot to say on the subject just isn't going to cut it anymore


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

When do you plan to begin your treatments?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

In all the "excitement" I forgot I needed a scale to accurately measure the OA.:doh: Ordered one the other day and it should be here before Turkey Day. Plan on starting next weekend.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Since alcohol is used to kill bees quickly, won't a fog of Everclear do just that?


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## Gumpy (Mar 30, 2016)

WesternWilson said:


> Since alcohol is used to kill bees quickly, won't a fog of Everclear do just that?


No. 

Read the thread from the top. That question was asked and answered.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Gumpy said:


> No.
> 
> Read the thread from the top. That question was asked and answered.


Was the thread started on April 1st??

Ok, read it all, no proof anywhere this treatment will do anything but kill every last bee in the hive. I sure won't be trialing this one!

And for those who want to go ahead, make sure you are wearing a full face respirator.


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## Gumpy (Mar 30, 2016)

WesternWilson said:


> Was the thread started on April 1st??


No. The initial post clearly indicates it was started on 9-18.




> Ok, read it all, no proof anywhere this treatment will do anything but kill every last bee in the hive. I sure won't be trialing this one!


Ok. They're your bees. Do with them as you please. 

Incidentally, responses 31 and 32 were where your question was asked and answered. Must have missed those when you "read it all". 




> And for those who want to go ahead, make sure you are wearing a full face respirator.


I believe that was pointed out in the thread, also.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

it was actually post 46... 
_These ethanol-induced changes in behavior may reflect effects on the central nervous system similar to the previously observed effects of food poisoning with sublethal doses of insecticides
Bozic J.; Abramson C.I.; Bedencic M. (2006)._

However, there has been no proof put forward that foged ethanol has a meaningful negative impact on the hives population of bees....

or mites for that matter :lookout:


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



shinbone said:


> There is no doubt that OAV is highly effective at killing mites with no harm to the bees. Whether fogging with OA kills enough mites to be a worthwhile treatment is still an open question.
> 
> The early adoptors of OA fogging have not been reporting great success. That is, the few that do report back with their results. Most users seem to rave about how awesome OA fogging is, but then make up an excuse on why they can't do follow up mite checks, and then we never hear back from them.
> 
> Please keep us posted as to your results.


I am an OA user. Did three treatments last year with a serendipity January treatment when it got in the fifties for a week when bees were broodless. I couldn't find a mite in my hives last summer. I treated three times this fall anyway and am hoping for another January Chinook. Randy Oliver has a detailed coverage of OA treatment and results and methodology for umpteen months in the ABJ Possibly you need to get out mores.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*



Vance G said:


> Randy Oliver has a detailed coverage of OA treatment and results and methodology for umpteen months in the ABJ Possibly you need to get out mores.


SB, I believe he was taking about fogging with Everclear.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

No one has been changeling the effect of the standard methods of using OA 
However, different dilvery systems have different effects, mix up a dribble with water instead of 1:1 syrup and it fails


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## Kcnc1 (Mar 31, 2017)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

Vance,

You didn’t mention the method you used. Shinbone was specifically referring to fogging v vapor spray or Dribble. 

Congratulations on your treatment success.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: .Re: Everclear 190 proof for OAV treatment*

For those sitting on pins and needles, you will have to wait a little longer for any data. I was planning on doing the treatments today but ran into a great deal on craigslist for a glass door mini fridge I am going to use for an incubator next year. Only a 180 mile round trip to get it. Figured the bees can wait a few more days, the fridge I wasn't so sure.

All is in the ready. Just need the time and for the weather to cooperate.


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## kramerbryan (Oct 30, 2013)

What kind of deal is worth 3+ hours of your time, and gas. I think you can buy a small incubator for under 200 new. I think the fogger is a bust. Another waste of time and bees.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

We are all entitled to our opinions. The fridge is a Beverageair glass door merchandiser in working condition. They routinely sell at auction for $450. This one was $50. I already own a chicken incubator and could have used that for now but hope to do a lot of grafting. And, it will keep the beer cold when I don't have queen cells in it. As far as the fogging, the only waste, assuming as you have that it doesn't work, is the $45 for the fogger. The OA will still get used and as for the Everclear, well, I can figure out some way to use that too.


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