# New design of a honey extractor.



## marksmith (May 4, 2010)

So extract under a vacuum and compare


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## Akademee (Apr 5, 2020)

It would be interesting to see if the taste between traditional extracted honey tastes different than crush and strain (doesn't make the honey into droplets).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

marksmith said:


> So extract under a vacuum and compare


Easy to say.
Not a practical idea.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Akademee said:


> It would be interesting to see if the *taste between traditional extracted honey tastes different* than crush and strain (doesn't make the honey into droplets).


This is indeed so as for me.
I did both extractions last season.
My conventional honey I would describe as "pedestrian" and I don't even care to eat anymore it since I have a variety of pressed honey. Of course, the 2019 conventional honey is all solid now.

But try it for yourself.

Unsure I will do any conventional honey this summer; hate wasting the good product.
Will just keep the honey frames as-is until I get a new extractor working (or just C&S it as needed).


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

GregV said:


> Easy to say.
> Not a practical idea.


It would be easy enough to fill a small extractor with C25 welding gas (25% CO2/75% Argon) for an experiment if one was so inclined.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

Steve in PA said:


> It would be easy enough to fill a small extractor with C25 welding gas (25% CO2/75% Argon) for an experiment if one was so inclined.


I was thinking pure nitrogen might work well. N2 might be cheaper than argon. I think most extractors would collapse long before you pull a vacuum, and you will probably flash boils stuff out of the honey extracting it in a vacuum. 

I wonder if you collected a air sample out of the extractor if you could have it sent somewhere and analyzed to see what you are loosing. 

If you want to make something really interesting extract in a pressurized CO2 environment and make carbonated honey. I have no clue if this have ever been done, but extracting under a inert gas blanket made me think of this.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Interesting thought - sounds reasonable.

For a laboratory experiment - load-up your extractor in a small enclosure, place some dry ice (solid CO2) on the floor, seal-up the enclosure with a small vent at the top. When the air has been displaced, extract and compare.

Or - the simpler version - divide your honey sample in half. Extract one half, and crush and strain the other. Subject those samples to comparative analysis.
LJ


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## Honeyeater (Jun 21, 2020)

Akademee said:


> It would be interesting to see if the taste between traditional extracted honey tastes different than crush and strain


I have a Flow hive. My honey comes straight out of the comb with no centrifugation, nor exposed to air for long periods like crush/strain.

I cannot really tell the difference in taste. I made a blind taste between mine, and another beekeeper's who is close by and must have similar tasting honey. If anything his tasted somewhat sweeter probably because his bees were foraging on something different at the time.

Having said that my taste buds are not the most refined in the world.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Why not compare to the "Gold Standard" - comb honey left capped? Crush it in your mouth for the very best flavor! It would be an interesting to develop a standard with methods to quantify quality. One should be able to quantify the differences in extraction methods.

Tasting is an interesting subject. I always find the first bit of crushed honey, licked off my finger "very tasty" or the very best honey when I start to de-cap. This is especially true for first-of-the-season honey.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Prepared food to go places that seal the food use a 70% N2/30% CO2 mix to remove the oxygen. This mix is available at many welding supply stores, as is the 75/25 mix used for nitrogenated beers. It would be a simple matter to hook up a flow meter to a conventional extractor and provide a blanket of gas that would prevent oxidation. Truly inert gases such as Ar and He are really expensive comparatively.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

I only mentioned C25 because it is what I have on hand. I use my welder to squirt some into cans of automotive epoxy paint to keep it fresh if I don't use the whole can. I'm sure N2/CO2 and maybe a few others would be even cheaper at the supply store.


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## Honeyeater (Jun 21, 2020)

Robert Holcombe said:


> Tasting is an interesting subject. I always find the first bit of crushed honey, licked off my finger "very tasty"


Taste is very subjective. What may taste good in the morning may not taste as good in the evening. Some people have a more acute sense of taste than others. Very interesting subject indeed.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Steve, your mention of the C25 is what reminded me of the mix I used to make for food packaging. And yes, N2 is much cheaper than Argon. Six years ago, our bulk price for the N2 was about .005/# while Ar was around .065/#. We were selling the the H size bottles of the N2/CO2 for around $32 and the C25 gas for around $75 IIRC, for the same sized bottle.


> Taste is very subjective. What may taste good in the morning may not taste as good in the evening.


And vice versa. What one found appealing in the evening, one might not find quite so appealing in the morning. Wait, we were talking about honey. My bad.


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## Bog_Bee (May 22, 2017)

You'd probably want to go with straight N2. CO2 reacts with water to form carbonic acid. That would change the pH of the system. 

Every once in while some technical SCUBA diver will notice that CO2 is even better than Argon at blocking heat transmission and will use it instead of Argon to inflate their drysuit. Unfortunately while waiting for long minutes at decompression stops carbonic acid forms from skin moisture. The itching is said to be intense.


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## Trin (May 6, 2020)

Aside from wondering if some of this is marketing nonsense, I do know that some cider makers will use nitrogen and CO2 to bottle their wares. The reason is the gas bubbles are different sizes and this affects how the cider contacts ones taste buds, allowing a wider taste profile.

I'd think a mass spectrometer test on spun VS crushed would verify if VOC's are being "lost". Don't think my palette is that educated. I still like Schlitz beer. (if I could only find some)


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Taste for sure is a subjective measure.
What is less subjective - actual VOC measurements.
That little amount of the VOCs and similar stuff in the honey makes all the difference (without the VOCs the honey is just a straight sweet syrup).
Testing of pressed honey vs. extracted honey vs. control (comb honey) would be a great thing.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

Trin said:


> Aside from wondering if some of this is marketing nonsense, I do know that some cider makers will use nitrogen and CO2 to bottle their wares. The reason is the gas bubbles are different sizes and this affects how the cider contacts ones taste buds, allowing a wider taste profile.


I know Guinness Uses nitrogen for carbonating their beer, and most other brands use CO2. I think the N2 creates smaller bubbles, and they flow differently thru the beer.


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## Trin (May 6, 2020)

I wouldn't guess that 100% of the VOC's are removed/gas off during centrifugal extraction. I would expect a percentage based on each particular VOC. Some VOC's might be bonded to other molecules in the honey. (I guess that wouldn't make them a VOC by definition, it's a question of rate of off gassing) The oxidation mentioned might also be subjective. What in the honey oxidizes? I'm not saying this isn't a very interesting question, I just know that some of the words are "buzz" words used by advertisers. In wine or beer making, fusel alcohols are not desirable as they cause headaches. Some will eventually off gas but it might take a few years of aging. 

A number of the VOC's are likely in the form of essential oils. Some organic oils will oxidize, maybe all of them given enough time. I do deal with organic oils in my business. If I don't move the oil out too customers in a matter of a number of weeks I have to pressurize the storage tanks with nitrogen to retard oxidation causing rancidity. That stuff is really bad.

Honey varieties, like wine, are obviously very complex. I may very well inquire about pollinating some local mint fields if I can verify that they are not spraying them with chemicals.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

What do you think about storing honey in wine bags? Would it reduce aging? Certainly easier to handle in 5 liter corrugated boxes and recyclable. 

Also, what's the impact of settling, maybe warmed-up settling in tanks? All VOC discussions should be related to all steps int he process of extraction and storage. Also thinking about curing honey is an open air process followed by capping. I would think that VOC outgassing is relative to vapor pressure as well as the chemical reaction with oxygen.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Trin said:


> I wouldn't guess that 100% of the VOC's are removed/gas off during centrifugal extraction. I would expect a percentage based on each particular VOC. Some VOC's might be bonded to other molecules in the honey. (I guess that wouldn't make them a VOC by definition, it's a question of rate of off gassing) The oxidation mentioned might also be subjective. What in the honey oxidizes? I'm not saying this isn't a very interesting question, I just know that some of the words are "buzz" words used by advertisers. In wine or beer making, fusel alcohols are not desirable as they cause headaches. Some will eventually off gas but it might take a few years of aging.
> 
> A number of the VOC's are likely in the form of essential oils. Some organic oils will oxidize, maybe all of them given enough time. I do deal with organic oils in my business. If I don't move the oil out too customers in a matter of a number of weeks I have to pressurize the storage tanks with nitrogen to retard oxidation causing rancidity. That stuff is really bad.
> 
> Honey varieties, like wine, are obviously very complex. I may very well inquire about pollinating some local mint fields if I can verify that they are not spraying them with chemicals.


I mean definitely no one is saying 100%.
Most everything in this life about ranges and proportions.

Still...
Think how the diesel fuel in the engine is oxidized - it is vaporized first - then mixed with air; then it oxidizes instantaneously and nearly fully.
Now pour some of that same fuel into a jar and try to light it - good luck doing that. 
It might burn, but not instantaneously by any means.

The same principle of oxidation applies to most any substance (the most chemically reactive substance form is gaseous or near gaseous).


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

So, what's next, Greg, are you going to do test tasting on honey that is extracted at higher altitudes? :lookout: 

There are so many things that could possibly affect the taste of honey in minimal degrees that we could run ourselves crazy trying to control them all.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tim KS said:


> So, what's next, Greg, are you going to do test tasting on honey that is extracted at higher altitudes? :lookout:
> 
> There are so many things that could possibly affect the taste of honey in minimal degrees that we could run ourselves crazy trying to control them all.


The taste of honey is really a secondary thing (but it does convey the complex honey construct).

My primary issue/concern is this - the honey rightly used to be considered a medicine for centuries.
Now days honey is a cheap commodity product with not much in it but carbs - just another variety of "sugar water".

Why is that?

Because like with most any industrial foods - the "optimizations" of food production processing essentially ruin the food itself.

Anyway, if I find a way to test honey that is reasonably priced and will provide good results on the micro-components (that significant 1% of the contents that differentiates honey from sugar water), I might just do it.
But I want to believe it was done already; strange if not so.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tim KS said:


> So, what's next, Greg, are you going to do test tasting on honey that is extracted at higher altitudes? :lookout: .


Speaking of extraction in vacuum, high altitude, custom gas mix...
That extractor design I put above makes all these hacks un-necessary because it does not fragment the honey into the micro-droplets and does not saturate it (the honey) with air. All the while still preserving the combs intact.
That was the idea.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

Robert Holcombe said:


> What do you think about storing honey in wine bags? Would it reduce aging? Certainly easier to handle in 5 liter corrugated boxes and recyclable.


I think most (hobbyist) use 5 gallon buckets with air tight lids for bulk storage. You can also get 1 or 2 gallon buckets fairly easy. I suspect it will be much harder to completely empty the wine bags because you can not scrape them clean with a spatula, and if the honey crystallizes in the bag you will have to cut it open to get the honey out. Wine bags would limit oxygen, but so would a N2 blanket/purge before sealing the buckets.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

GregV said:


> The taste of honey is really a secondary thing (but it does convey the complex honey construct).
> 
> My primary issue/concern is this - *the honey rightly used to be considered a medicine for centuries*.
> Now days honey is a cheap commodity product with not much in it but carbs - just another variety of "sugar water".


I think medicinal use of honey has lost it's stature due mainly to poor marketing technique and a closer looker look at WHY it was considered medicinal to begin with. Also the source plant of the honey has much to do with it's medicinal qualities. All honey is just not equally medicinal honey.

If extraction technique makes a difference in medicinal use, which it might, then simply market comb honey to overcome that obstacle.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Greg, I bumped up an old thread about honey presses. It also contains a link to a study about the nutritional value honey from press extraction verses centrifugal extraction. Check it out.

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?334426-Honey-press


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JConnolly said:


> Greg, I bumped up an old thread about honey presses. It also contains a link to a study about the nutritional value honey from press extraction verses centrifugal extraction. Check it out.
> 
> https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?334426-Honey-press


Many Thanks!
*Exactly *what I was looking for!


> Pressed honey, can be marked as a differentiated product with a higher mineral content and several nutritional properties.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tim KS said:


> I think medicinal use of honey has lost it's stature due mainly to poor marketing technique and a closer looker look at WHY it was considered medicinal to begin with. Also the source plant of the honey has much to do with it's medicinal qualities. All honey is just not equally medicinal honey.
> 
> If extraction technique makes a difference in medicinal use, which it might, then simply market comb honey to overcome that obstacle.


All of this goes without saying (at least in beekeeping circles).
And so we do not need to rehash the differences of different honeys:


> .....Also the source plant of the honey has much to do with it's medicinal qualities. All honey is just not equally medicinal honey.


For any testing, of course, the *same * properly selected honey should be subject to different treatments.



> .....then simply market comb honey to overcome that obstacle


The liquid honey does have its own advantages vs. the comb.
Especially, if that liquid honey comes from substandard combs (which makes it then un-sellable as "comb honey").
The liquid honey is entirely justified and great product, until it is ruined.
Besides, I don't even market anything; I just want to have great, unspoiled product for myself (as I am sure many of others here).


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Greg, make sure you check out the video from that thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnu0UGxnJWA where they harvest a Warre with a press.

Plans for that honey press are here: https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/mo...f0eea2b154a39/Templeton-Stade-Honey-Wax-Press


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Trin said:


> I may very well inquire about pollinating some local mint fields if I can verify that they are not spraying them with chemicals.


You can give it a try for yourself. But I had some honey from the middle of the summer last year that had an off flavor that I could not identify. It was definitely not honey that you would want to use as a spread. I extracted the off flavored supers to their own bucket and gave the honey to someone who brews mead, letting him know it was an off flavor. After fermenting the off taste was definitely identifiable; the bees had gotten into some mint. Needless to say, it was not pleasant. It is aging for a year to see if it improves, but it appears to be paint stripper and not mead. Everyone has their own taste though.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JConnolly said:


> Greg, make sure you check out the video from that thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnu0UGxnJWA where they harvest a Warre with a press.
> 
> Plans for that honey press are here: https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/mo...f0eea2b154a39/Templeton-Stade-Honey-Wax-Press


Right.
I know about the presses and considered purchase of a multi-purpose press (if spending that kind of money, better have it multi-purpose). But again, why spend that kind of money!

Building a good press is not a trivial project either (your link).
I do prefer simple things that work well enough without the over-engineering them.

I easily C&S in my kitchen using simple kitchen utensils with the same general result.
If the residue is not dry enough, I have ways to handled that also.

It is simply I want an option to have the best possible extracted honey (ideally identical to the comb honey) and still have the combs too.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Here is an earlier thread, 2012, from this forum about the Templeton-Stade press from Templeton. https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...oney-wax-press-uploaded-to-sketchup-warehouse You are correct, building one of these is not trivial, and you can't buy them off the shelf somewhere. But — if you were a Warre keeper and someone who sets up a booth at the local swap meet to sell honey, then one of these, with on the spot pressing and bottling, would be a huge crowd draw.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JConnolly said:


> Here is an earlier thread, 2012, from this forum about the Templeton-Stade press from Templeton. https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...oney-wax-press-uploaded-to-sketchup-warehouse


Thanks!
The same old subject keeps coming back - and rightly so.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV said:


> It is simply I want an option to have the best possible extracted honey (ideally identical to the comb honey) and still have the combs too.


Greg - have you considered section-honey as an alternative to extracted ? But - from what little I know, it sounds a rather more demanding method of harvesting .. (and of course, you don't get to keep those combs either).
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Greg - have you considered section-honey as an alternative to extracted ? But - from what little I know, it sounds a rather more demanding method of harvesting .. (and of course, you don't get to keep those combs either).
> LJ


LJ, I made lots of section-honey from the 2019 crop.
In fact, yesterday I found another forgotten honey frame and cut-out a part of it, before giving the rest to the bees.
My kids don't like comb honey; they prefer extracted.
I will probably gift some of my comb/chunk honey.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Elmer_fud - I use buckets to collect and store for a bit of time. I am looking for another way to recycle wine bags. Currently, I use some wine bags as air bags in my double hull boats and kayaks. Maybe I use some as solar hot water bags to keep my feet warm in winter.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JConnolly said:


> Here is an earlier thread, 2012, from this forum about the Templeton-Stade press from Templeton..


Here is a line of nice apple cider presses I seriously considered (technically, NOT honey presses, but should work fine).
https://pleasanthillgrain.com/appliances/apple-wine-presses

And how the cider press works to harvest heather honey in UK (starting at 18:00):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRsvu3-pHGM

I don't know why, but in this video it is obvious the honey has lots of air bubbles too, it is foamy on the top (in the very end).
It maybe this is an apple cider press "feature" which I would not really like.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

I remembered seeing a picture posted here sometime ago of a German hand made oak honey press that was a beautiful piece of art. It was almost too pretty to use. I finally found it. I know this is a diversion from the direction you were going with this thread but this thing is gorgeous.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JConnolly said:


> I remembered seeing a picture posted here sometime ago of a German hand made oak honey press that was a beautiful piece of art. It was almost too pretty to use. I finally found it. This thing is gorgeous.


Indeed, I'd hate using this piece. Too pretty.

I found a much simpler pressing device which even I could build and would actually use - very effective too.
Starting 4:00 it is used for wax extraction.
Honey extraction would work the same, just in *cleaner* conditions, LOL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76dZaRco3tc


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2018)

GregV said:


> This is indeed so as for me.
> I did both extractions last season.
> My conventional honey I would describe as "pedestrian" and I don't even care to eat anymore it since I have a variety of pressed honey. Of course, the 2019 conventional honey is all solid now.


Are you sure it's really different? Give a 100 violinists a Stradavarius and they will coo about the phenomenal sounds. Take the same 100 violinists, blindfold them, and give the either the stadavarius or a non-stradavarius and they can't tell which is which. Yes, that experiment was done.

If you want to prove there is a difference, then run a properly designed double blind experiment. I will believe those results, otherwise I suspect it tastes like confirmation bias.

On the other hand, don't and let your mind help you enjoy the crushed and strained honey more. 

However, before any serious investments I suggest the experiment. The market will punish you if the taste improvement was only confirmation bias.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Are you sure it's really different? Give a 100 violinists a Stradavarius and they will coo about the phenomenal sounds. Take the same 100 violinists, blindfold them, and give the either the stadavarius or a non-stradavarius and they can't tell which is which. Yes, that experiment was done.
> 
> If you want to prove there is a difference, then run a properly designed double blind experiment. I will believe those results, otherwise I suspect it tastes like confirmation bias.
> 
> ...


I was kind of thinking a bit along these lines, but now that you mention it, :thumbsup:


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## IslandLife (Apr 14, 2015)

An interesting subject. I agree with one responder that the palatable difference between spun, FlowHive, or comb honey is very little - if any at all. But, "taste" is very personal and hard to argue about/with. However, I question the "mini-droplets" and "oxygenation" descriptions. 

For one, an extractor starts spinning pretty slow and honey gets flung out in in large globs initially, and maybe smaller droplets at eventual high speed. What is the percentage of large vs. small? My guess is that I'm getting about a 10% better "yield" with my fancy electrical extractor vs. the original hand-cranked one. That could be a reasonable assumption. I also do not witness a large increase in "foam" in extracted honey, which would be an indication of entrapped air ... 

Second, what is "oxygenation"? A reaction with oxygen (like rusting), which would fundamentally change a substance. "Aeration" and oxygenation are very different concepts. To aerate something would be to strip volatiles by moving large quantities of air through a substance (liquid in this case). I believe that we're worried about aerating, not oxygenating, in this discussion - in which case it could matter which gas we introduce into the extraction vessel (maybe CO2 or N2 are more efficient in stripping volatiles from a viscous liquid?). 

When I crank up the speed in the extractor, to get my 10% yield increase, is the effect like a fan blowing air in my face and depositing "mini-droplets" of honey wherever they may fly? No ... Not exactly. Sure if I open the cover and get close I'll get some wind effect, but definitely nothing like a fan. The reason is that the air inside the extractor is also moving along at the same speed as the frames (much like the air inside a train when you're speeding along the track). There is very little resistance to the air moving with the frames in the vessel, and the centrifugal force is what spins the honey out of the comb, not air blowing it out. Therefore, although the honey house/room may smell from some escaping volatiles during the extraction process, the same effect can occur when "crushing" comb and extracting under high pressure and then suddenly exposing the thereby released honey to normal (1 atm) of ambient pressure. Again, smell does not indicate that large amounts of volatiles are lost, which seems to validate that tastes are also not very different ... 

In summary, I do not believe that extracting honey by way of centrifugal force (spinning), significantly affects the composition and/or taste of the final product. The additional benefit of having (wet) comb to give back to the bees for re-use (or attract swarms) has been a determining factor for me to follow this "conventional" and proven method. 

Bee-on!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

IslandLife said:


> An interesting subject. ...........
> 
> Bee-on!


Do review this next:


> Abstract
> In this study, wild honey samples extracted by two different methods (centrifugation and pressed processing) were characterized and compared based on their physicochemical, and nutritional properties, macro- and micro-mineral contents, and pollen counts. Twelve colonies of Africanized Apis mellifera were used; six honey samples were obtained by centrifugation and six by honeycomb press. All physicochemical parameters of honey samples (moisture, pH, total acidity, ash, dry matter, and qualitative absence of hydroxymethylfurfural) were within the limits established by EU legislation, and all parameters in pressed honey were superior (p<0.05). Nutritional contents (total carbohydrates, total lipids, total proteins, flavonoids, and ascorbic acid) and minerals (K, Ca, Mg, Na, Fe, Li, Zn) were also higher in pressed honey. The quantity of pollen in pressed honey samples was 5.6-fold higher than in centrifuged samples. Pressed honey, can be marked as a differentiated product with a higher mineral content and several nutritional properties.


Referenced from:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?334426-Honey-press&p=1520899#post1520899

There is a full PDF to download for a review; I found it online.
Here it is for the full review:
https://www.malfroysgold.com.au/Pressed honey vs extracted - kadri et al. 2017.pdf



> For one, an extractor starts spinning pretty slow.....


You should (when extracting) look just above the drum and you will see honey fog just above extractor (if not covered).
Try it for yourself; especially with a motorized radial spinner - that is not "pretty slow" if the air turbulence creates honey fog inside the drum.


> Second, what is "oxygenation"?


Is creating as much contact surface possible between the honey and the air (~21% oxygen) so that there is maximum potential for the oxygen to react with the chemically fragile compounds in the honey (enzymes, etc). Like we know, honey contains minute amounts of active compounds that make it honey. Once those removed, the honey becomes less of a honey and more of a sugar water. If you sell, you may not care; if you make honey for yourself, you may care.

As far as the C&S vs. pressing.
Check it out - these are totally different processes anyway.
When I do C&S - I do NOT press anything; I mince the combs and let it all flow; it is a totally free, unforced flow with no forces applied. There is no smell to speak of.
So I think the C&S provides superior output even to pressing (albeit much slower process).

Anyways, like it was discussed many times, what is conventional today was not conventional yesterday and may not be conventional tomorrow. So the "conventional" and "proven" in itself has only one immediate benefit - it is the easiest way here and now and, thus, is perceived and marketed as if "best".

Well, I grew with conventional and proven fire stove. 
Today I live with the city proved gas, also conventional and proven.
And so on...
Conventional and proven is a very temporary thing in many dimensions.

The same way I don't buy the "conventional" and "proven" homogenized milk.
I am in a very small minority in that, but whatever.


Basically, why I brought up the extractor design because it does afford "the additional benefit of having (wet) comb to give back to the bees for re-use (or attract swarms)".


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## IslandLife (Apr 14, 2015)

GregV said:


> You should (when extracting) look just above the drum and you will see honey fog just above extractor (if not covered).
> Try it for yourself; especially with a motorized radial spinner - that is not "pretty slow" if the air turbulence creates honey fog inside the drum.
> 
> *I must say that I have never witnessed this. Also, my "pretty slow" comment was referring to the spin-up of the extractor. I smart beekeeper doesn't go full-bore but slowly ramps up the speed in order to allow the loads to balance.
> ...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

IslandLife said:


> GregV said:
> 
> 
> > You should (when extracting) look just above the drum and you will see honey fog just above extractor (if not covered).
> ...


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

In case someone is looking at cider presses for honey: Many of them have a very low groove around the basket for the cider to flow out. Honey is more viscous (flows slower) and so needs a deeper channel.
If the goal is honey as unadulterated as possible I would think that gas blankets would not help as that would have an effect on the honey (either reacting with or being absorbed into).... 
other reasons honey is "less medicinal" now than it used to be: it is often a "big ag" byproduct containing only a few different nectars; it may contain sugar and harvested or applied synthetic chemicals; it is often heated and filtered significantly more than in days past, etc. My guess is the honey is changed much more by those factors than by extracting. However, from Greg's quote above it is clearly altered by the extraction process. More research needs to be done to eliminate variables and quantify the differences more. And like everything else it can certainly be used as a marketing tool. I have seen Manuka honey on the shelf for phenomenal prices; we may well have our own magic honey locally if we just get a few more studies to prove how awesome it is. I would keep pressed honey separate from spun if I could get a better price....
We have had a drought around here so robbing has started. Thankfully we just got a bunch of rain so maybe the flow will pick up again. It certainly looks like less honey than last year but just as weird of a season for other reasons.... Happy extracting everyone!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Amibusiness said:


> In case someone is looking at cider presses for honey: *Many of them have a very low groove around the basket for the cider to flow out. *Honey is more viscous (flows slower) and so needs a deeper channel................. Happy extracting everyone!


Good pointer, Amibusiness!
I did not know this rather important detail - which could make a lot of difference.
I could still use a good press for my various other ventures (honey being a value added feature - but the press must be good for that).


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## AnVil (May 17, 2018)

GregV said:


> Do review this next:
> 
> Referenced from:
> https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?334426-Honey-press&p=1520899#post1520899
> ...


These papers do not really say on WHY the end product has different chemical composition. Your assumption is that oxidation is the reason. But it could be similar to what you get when making wine from red grapes with skins vs. no skins. You get different product.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

GregV, Have you ever considered having the local university do a quantitative analysis of capped honey versus spun out honey? It would seem to be an interesting research project for a Phd candidate or class project.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AnVil said:


> These papers do not really say on WHY the end product has different chemical composition. Your assumption is that oxidation is the reason. But it could be similar to what you get when making wine from red grapes with skins vs. no skins. You get different product.


Of course they don't say of the direct causes - they don't know.
And of course I don't know.
I simply offered one reasonable idea (reasonable to me).

BUT they documented the significant and observable differences.
Hard to argue with that.
There will be disagreements too.
Many people will have hard time excepting that the honey they are making is not the best possible (by their own doing).
Not to mention the equipment vendors - these people hate market disruptions.

Very similar to pretty much proven case of highly processed red meat products to be carcinogenic.
They still don't know the WHYs.
But the empirical findings have been documented and keep piling on.
Of course, many people will ignore anyway and keep eating their daily hot dogs - their personal health and choice.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Robert Holcombe said:


> GregV, Have you ever considered having the local university do a quantitative analysis of capped honey versus spun out honey? It would seem to be an interesting research project for a Phd candidate or class project.


I have not.
But I could - WU Madison Ag school is 15 minute drive from me. Email is even faster.
I probably should.


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## ptwat (May 1, 2008)

GregV said:


> I have always believed that centrifuged honey is inferior to pressed honey due to oxidation and destruction of the natural VOCs in it.
> Essentially, the process of conventional extraction ruins the honey (am yet to find a good side-by-side scientific grade comparison - unsure why no one cares to do it; I did look).
> 
> Here is a relevant google-translated quote from one of the patents I looked at:
> ...



Looking at the video it strikes me that a radial extractor is very close to this design. The difference being that the honey has to jump the gap between the rotating basket and the sides. One way to improve a radial extractor would be to make the basket as close to the extractor sides as possible to reduce the gap. If there is any truth to assumption that honey flying through the air loses good and picks up bad, the tangential extractor is the worst choice of commercial extractors, an opinion I have held for a while.


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## mobe_45 (Mar 14, 2015)

Very interesting ideas here. There is one point not mentioned in them. Not all honey comes from the same flowers, even on the same super. It would take exactly the same floral harvesting of each extraction method to prove anything.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mobe_45 said:


> Very interesting ideas here. There is one point not mentioned in them. Not all honey comes from the same flowers, even on the same super. It would take exactly the same floral harvesting of each extraction method to prove anything.


Well, there are ways to randomize the sample so to even out what is being tested.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A new video (continuation); subtitles are available:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n3BwlCmYW8


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