# think i found EFB in one hive.



## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

European foul brood smells like rotting fish with extra ammonia, and the larvae turn brown and die before they are capped. They decay into a rubbery scale in the bottom of the cell, which will be removed by the bees. Melted larvae do NOT string out if you stick a matchstick in, and all the capped brood will be alive in most cases.

The diagnostic key is the rubber scales -- you will find them on the bottom board or on the sticky board under a screened bottom board, and you can pry them out of comb without tearing up the cells.

Peter


----------



## phersbees (Mar 28, 2014)

I havent smelt anything at all. But ill check bottom board and check dead larvae


----------



## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

I had about the same thing you describe a couple of years ago and found that it was the yellow Carolina jasmine. I had a few hives near a lot of it, I moved the hives and the problem stopped.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, in the early Spring time this disease sometime will infect your hives.
Right now is the initial stage of the disease. When more young larvae and capped
broods died over time then you will notice more of the decaying fishy smell.
If left unattended the neighbor hives will bee infected as well when time goes on. Check your
other hives within 2 weeks to see if they have it or not.
Some keepers will replace the queen too. I suspect a dirty hive environment or contaminated
pollen or nectar feeds. Have you been feeding them at all and with what?
So to clean it up the you tube vid recommend to shake out the bees and queen into a new hive with
drawn out frames. It is better to set up the frames on one side while you shake the bees out
onto the other side without the frames on. The old equipment like the hive boxes, covers, bottom board, etc must be disinfected by torching before being use again.
The frames must be clean out and disinfected too if you are reusing them. But it is better to start everything new if you can do that. 
Once the new hive is set up, do a treatment with the terramycin by following the label instruction. If done correctly within 2-3 weeks should clear up this problem. 
In 2 months things should smell normal again if everything went well. Don't feed the contaminated pollen and nectar back to the newly set up hive.
Many will just burn their hives. But why when you can still save them with some cleaning and medication.


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

I only had to deal with EFB once (knock on wood) and feeding cleared it up. I bought the antibiotic but never used it. It is a disease that appears when bees are stressed so you want to change those conditions. Before I did anything else I would feed and consider requeening. Also cut out the sections of comb where you see symptoms and dispose of it. This keeps the bees from recycling the bacteria. They will fill in with fresh clean comb. I found a lot of contradictory information regarding frames and wooden wear. I would do this before shaking out the hive.


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Most of the time there is almost no smell with EFB. The bees clean up the dead before it has much of a smell, then by the time they are too weak to clean up the mess they are not raising much brood. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?298750-Pseudo-Laying-Workers

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?304087-What-is-going-on-with-this

Here are two threads with lots of link and info.

If you need more help *don't hesitate to ask.*

I have helped many people here on beesource identify and recover from some bad cases of EFB.

Time is a critical factory.

I just talked to kayakbiker (from the second thread) and his hive *made it through winter!!!*


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Most of the time there is almost no smell with EFB.


Agreed...mine never smelled.


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Take a sample to the State Diagnostic lab in Hanceville and let them check them for you.


----------



## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

It could be yellow jasmine poisoning or it could be efb. I would not take a chance. it will spread. I had one apiary that more than half the hives caught it. If there is an inordinate amount of dieoff bees in front of the hive it might be yellow jasmine. If not, it is probably efb. If it is efb and if it were my hive I'd give them duravet mixed in a quart of syrup. Make sure the syrup is not hot when you mix. Syrup is the quickest and most effective way to clear it up quickly. Truthfully, if it is efb the hive is going to be a problem for you. EFB can recur and once you treat the hive it has to come out of production for six weeks which will cause you to miss the spring flow. If you don't re treat it will come back at the next nectar dearth. I had ten or fifteen get bad cases last spring and I was able to nurse them along but could not harvest any spring honey from them so I split most of them into three's. About half of those had to be treated again in the summer and about half dwindled and died out in the winter. I treated everything with dust ever week for six weeks starting in mid january and have only seen on case so far this spring and that may be yellow jasmine poisoning. I also have had the best brood patterns I have had in the late winter and early spring in a long time.


----------



## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

It's not bacterial it's spores


----------



## phersbees (Mar 28, 2014)

I put them in a new hive to day, shaked them off into new hive, old went to fire(first box i made). Also treated them with theeramycin from tractor supply. Sprinkled it with powder sugar and mix it in some feed. Hopfuly itll make it. Last year this hive always laacked something. I requeened it 2 times first italian 2nd russian neather seem to lay much. Had to feed all winter maybe efb has been the problem allalong


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Have you watch the you tube vid on the clean up instruction and method?
I did and it show that to line the top bars and the sides of the box on the frame edges
with the powder mixed in with the feed. Actually they don't feed it much but the medicine will
be carry out by the foragers. And some will get on the feed to control this issue. Be sure to take
out the old and put new medicine on every week. You will notice the difference after 2 weeks if it 
works at all.
Have you consider to get bee stocks that are free of this bee disease to head your hives?


----------



## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

Dave1958 said:


> It's not bacterial it's spores


 beg to differ. Unless you've read something recently and the science has changed, EFB IS BACTERIAL and does not produce spores. AFB produces spores, but everything I read when I had two hives with EFB last year, said EFB does not produce spores.


----------



## phersbees (Mar 28, 2014)

rsjohnson2u said:


> beg to differ. Unless you've read something recently and the science has changed, EFB IS BACTERIAL and does not produce spores. AFB produces spores, but everything I read when I had two hives with EFB last year, said EFB does not produce spores.


Thats what ive been reading. How you treat? Did it work.


----------



## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

Check out the link FlowerPlanter suggested originally about laying workers which turned into a thread about EFB (I am the OP). I ended up requeening and treating with oxytetracycline in powdered sugar, waiting out the blackberry flow, and not supering or taking honey from those hives. Both hives recovered, but perished over winter/spring. Unfortunately, I appear headed for at least one affected hive this spring. A strong hive began robbing one of the hives infected last year (which I though had made it, but died a few weeks ago) before I removed it from that outyard. Although the hive is strong (two deeps and growing), the queen is exhibiting a shotgun laying pattern now, whereas the last time I checked she was solid. There is plenty of tree pollen coming in (alder, cedar, and maple, etc., and cherries are in bloom with apples just opening) so I'm doubting nutrition as some suspect. Also, this hive has not been fed syrup this spring.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I am not sure about the contaminated nectar or pollen when
they got the EFB. Still learning whether or not the contaminated
feed can be feed back to the hive after they recovered or to be disposed off. 
So if it is not the nutrition part then just the bacteria, right.
Are you going to treat this hive with the spotty brood pattern or allow them to clear out this disease naturally? Left over time the EFB is highly contagious too.


----------



## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

If I treat, I need to get on it. Six weeks between treatment and supering, minimum, puts me right at our main flow. I read many threads last year how "requeening and a good flow clears it up" but this does not address the larger issue of what happens during a dearth, the winter, or following spring. There are anecdotal stories of the same hives exhibiting EFB symptoms every spring. Additionally, given mites, their viruses, Nosema c., and so on, having EFB in the hive doesn't help. I know I transferred it from am infected hive to a clean one after transferring an infected frame to a strong colony following the "a strong colony will clean it up" theory. WRONG! "Cleaning it up", and eradicating it are completely different things.
The bigger issue for me is the drawn comb. 120 frames of drawn comb in an eight hive hobby operation is a significant hit. Two to three years in time and bees to get that much new comb drawn, and the hive management limitations of only having foundation. I bought glacial acetic acid on Amazon, but haven't used it. Trashing the frames seems best, but is a tough call. I do believe EFB is in the bee bread made and stored by the house bees and can be transferred by robbing or intentional exchange of frames between hives (although I've never read that bees rob beebread).


----------



## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

A couple of years ago I was talking to one of the commercial package and suppliers nearby and trying to figure out how he got his bees strong enough to shake packages in early march. They have ten thousand hives with less than 5% winter loss. One of the things that he told me was that they treat for everything. I am fully convinced that efb is a drag on hives at any point of stress of nectar dearth. The research I have read says that the bacteria kills the larva by competing for the food in the larva's gut thereby starving it. In nectar dearths larva are fed less and thereby die more quickly. In times of flow, the larva may live because it has more resources but the bacteria is still present and increasing in load. If that is the case, it stands to reason that low levels of efb could not kill the larva but yield a weakened bee that will not live out a full life cycle because it was undernourished in the cell. Could this be part of the reason the last generation of bees raised at the beginning of the summer flow all die in late august and september before the fall flow? Could this be the reason that the bees that are supposed to live four months through the winter die prematurely leaving some hives with a handful of bees in january? I attacked efb and varroa in July last year and had hardly any of the september collapses I usually have. I did not treat for efb in the fall and had the same bee yard that had trouble last spring lose more than half its hives (fifteen or so). Nearly all rest were pitiful by late January. I dusted hives every week from the third week of jan to march and have only one case of efb show up so far and that is a hive in a yard that missed the last two treatments. 

We resist treating when we do not see symptoms. The reality is that once efb shows up then the hive will always have the bacteria. The options the beekeeper has are to control it or be prepared to lose production from some high percentage of his colonies. It apparently can be controlled by not allowing the reservoir to build up early or rebound late. That is done by the preventative treatments at key times of the year. Traditionally a round of treatments in the spring and fall. I will add one at the beginning of any summer nectar dearth. 

EFB is persistent. Badly infected frames probably need to be ditched. I have shaken bees from badly infected hives onto new equipment only to see the infection reoccur within two brood cycles. I have placed frames from deadouts which had been fumigated with acetic acid on hives only to see them immediately infect the hive on which they were placed. 

Finally, not every hive will have strong recurrence. Through the years I have had hives with cases of efb that after treatment have not shown significant recurrence without treatment while others have had such a high load that no amount of treatment can prevent immediate re occurrences.


----------



## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

Tim B nice post. You mentioned something I saw. Although the bees "recovered" during summer after treating, and seemed like the hives had good numbers going into late fall, I was surprised at the pile of dead bees in front of theses hives in January. I assumed it was dead summer bees, but have since decided many winter bees just didn't make it. One hive died outright during the winter, one I thought very small, but would pull through, dwindled then died in March (with pollen coming in and a deep full of honey). 
Mine never did smell.
Not mentioned in this thread, but my EFB came with a split (nuc) of CA almond bees I purchased last March.


----------



## phersbees (Mar 28, 2014)

Sent some of my bees to state lab. Was told not EFB. Had PMS. Paricidic mite symdrone. I checked didnt see any mites. But he told me if it was advanced there mite not be any on learvae. And that advance pms can sometimes look like efb. All cells where opened and leavae had heads chewed off. Was one difrence


I did OA treatments in fall should i do it again. I lost the hive in question but what abouy the others


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, definitely treat again in the Fall and the early Spring time.
Spring treating will knock off 90% of the mites otherwise the hive
will suffer when they brood up. This was my experience early Spring here.
The mites are all under control now that I don't want to kill them all leaving about
5% or so in there to play with. Yes, the other hives you need to treat if found the
mites. OAV is a very effective treatment without harming the bees.


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>Sent some of my bees to state lab.
>Was told not EFB.
Did you send any comb? I believe you need to send a sample of comb with dead larva to test for EFB.

>All cells where opened and leavae had heads chewed off. Was one difference
Not necessary PMS or EFB, it's the results of bees cleaning out dead, which could have died any number of ways.


----------

