# How do you like going foundationless?



## Jon11 (Mar 29, 2011)

I forgot to mention that the frames I am using are the foundationless frames sold by Kelley


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Putting foundationless between empty foundation is likely to result in honey that is 2 1/2 inches thick and so heavy that it falls out. Foundationless between capped honey comes out beautiful.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

It is great for raising drones, that I destroy for Varroa control. I like the convenience of good foundation in honey supers.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

The only well drawn foundationless comb I have was drawn between two frames of brood. If you have frames of drone comb for varroa control, place one in the nuc when you add the foundationless frame. This helps stop the bees from drawing the foundationless comb out in drone size cells.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

One of the best decisions I ever made.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I have been using foundationless, but not exclusively, for several years now. It is remarkable how quickly the bees can make comb for themselves with little help from we beekeepers. Sometimes them make foundationless drone comb - I've discovered that I don't need to let them use drone comb to raise drones, unless I want them to.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

It works great for me but, as noted above, at times they'll draw out double-wide combs the reach to beespace-shy of the adjoining foundation. Between drawn comb it's consistently drawn accurately.


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

I just started using foundationless so I can't really offer an opinion. However, I do have a few that have been drawn out quite nice, AND quick. The first thing I gained from trying them out was a greater appreciation for the miracle of the bees work. Although, they do draw out foundation, I feel that seeing an empty frame get filled up with such beautiful work really gives you a sense of the wonderful work of nature.

Later, John


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## HiveMind (Jul 6, 2010)

I'm new this year as well. I just decided foundationless would let the bees do what they want the just the way God designed them to. I've caught 3 swarms and all 3 are doing very well drawing out the comb as they need it. You've got to make sure your hives are level. I've done this and they draw the comb is straight on the comb guides. It has been amazing to see them go to work and set up shop.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

HiveMind said:


> ... foundationless would let the bees do what they want the just the way God designed them to.


Well, letting them die from varroa does that too . But foundationless does offer some advantages; it's a management option with pros and cons like everything else.


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## HiveMind (Jul 6, 2010)

Ben Brewcat said:


> Well, letting them die from varroa does that too . But foundationless does offer some advantages; it's a management option with pros and cons like everything else.


I agree. It's a management option. My dad uses foundation. Works great. Didn't mean to come off as sounding religious about foundationless. They both work and each has trade-offs.


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## Jon11 (Mar 29, 2011)

Thanks for the thoughts everybody. I have used one of my deep frames already. I put a hood trap on in it for small hive beetles. The comb they were drawing on it was nice. Unfortunately I forgot that the hood trap was there and tipped the hive body back, which spilled a bunch of oil and killed some bees, hopefully not the queen. The trap did seem to be helping some though. I saw several beeltes in the trap and didn't notice any running around in the hive. If they are in the trap I know there are some in the hive, but the population is at least low.


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

Sorry to hear about the oil spill. I have been goung without foundation for...well since I started six years ago. I only had one hive that built it weird unless I turned the hive to face a more southerly direction. A couple crazy comb but they built straight after that. I do use a starter strip foundation (one cell deep at the top and the last two years just a strip of wax. The only time I take care is with new comb because it hasn't 'toughened' up enough and will easily break.


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## giant pumpkin peep (Mar 14, 2009)

I justed started my first found-less frames few days ago. Took a quick peek, and each had one frame of drone comb they were drawing, and one was actually starting to draw worker comb on another frame. Im not feeding them sugar syrup or anything.


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## John_Colorado (Dec 10, 2009)

I find it is great, they build very fast, though I dont think I will try to spin the honey out, i just press the comb to extract the honey at harvest. 
I also have a very crafty wife who likes to do stuff with all the extra wax


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## Jon11 (Mar 29, 2011)

Are y'all using 10 frames in a hive or 9. Most of my boxes have the frame spacers in them


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## John_Colorado (Dec 10, 2009)

nine frames


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In a ten frame box, 11. In an eight frame box 9.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

These are from a swarm I caught 3 weeks ago today, the girls have their 1st box completely drawn out. 

I follow Michael Bush's advice and use 9 - 1 1/4" wide frames in an 8 frame box. 

































Don


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## Apiator (Apr 8, 2011)

I'm in my first year at this, so take it with a grain of salt. Me and a buddy decided to start keeping bees about March this year, so we ordered some 10-frame deep hive kits, and knocked them together, foundations and all.

Then, the next week, I found this forum, started reading lots and following links (I read really fast) and of course found Mike Bush's site.

I'm also a carpenter, and not only found myself disappointed with the quality of the kits we ordered, but also decided I could build 8-frame medium foundationless cedar equipment cheaper.

We ordered 5 packages from a company in California, delivered mid-April. Installed them in two 10-frame deep foundationed hives, and three of our homebuilt 8-frame medium foundationless hives. 

All 5 are now dead.

Based on my exhaustive internet research, they froze. Our bee yard was getting to low 20-degree temps at night through the middle of May, or a month after installing the packages. (Which also means, of course, no nectar... so cold and starvation go hand-in-hand.) Not a good thing, and the lesson we learned from that is -- don't buy packages from warm climates. We're now rebuilding from local feral swarms and cutouts. Colorado weather is fickle at best, and this spring was nasty and mean beyond anything I've seen here in 15 years. (Corn farmers couldn't plant til about 10 days ago, 3 weeks behind normal.) It was silly to hope that bees from essentially a Mediterranean clime would survive here, but no one sells packages locally. $600 out. Lesson learned. 

Long and short of it is... we saw, at minimum, twice as much comb drawn in the foundationless equipment. Before the mass extinction. I think that means something.

Even if it doesn't, we save a buck a frame... because foundation is the only part I can't make in my shop.


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## giant pumpkin peep (Mar 14, 2009)

apiator,,,that stinks! Im sorry to hear it. I dont know if local packs would be any better, local nucs would be best. Getting packs going under those circumstances is tough, and risky. Do you think the foundationless caused it? I havnt tried packs on foundationless yet, just splits.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

I love cutouts, nothing better than getting paid well to take somebody elses survivor bees. :lpf:


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## Rob73 (Apr 19, 2009)

Why do folks push so hard for you to use foundation? 

Rob


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Probably because they know that having a brood chamber that contains accurately drawn comb that is predominately worker cells is one of the requirements for a successful colony. For a colony to reach it's full potential it needs a strong force of workers. A good queen can/will lay 2000 + eggs a day if she has the proper cells to do so, without good comb she can't lay at her maximum rate.


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## Rob73 (Apr 19, 2009)

I wouldnt mind trying some foundationless frames to try some comb honey. Is it ok to put a shallow super of foundationless frames on top of a honey super, or do you run the risk of giving them too much space? I dont want to experiment too much because I only have a small number of hives. I do have two strong hives with supers on right now. They havent really started drawing out the frames just yet on the medium supers. They have them propolised up really good, but thats about it. I dont wanna disrupt them by adding a shallow on top of my medium super, but with no foundation for a pest to eat or lay in, is it safe to throw it on?
I have always heard to not give them too much space, but then I hear of folks throwing 3 or 4 supers on so they dont run out of space. I just dont want to do the wrong thing.

Rob


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Ron, you need to Pyramid up frames with new foundationless frames or you will have a mess. Basically with every new box of empty foundatioless frames you add you pull up a couple of drawn out capped frames, that are nice and straight from a lower box putting the empties in there place. Gives the bees a ladder up in the new box and gives them straight comb to build next to as a guide. 

Don't ask me how I know! 









If you do it right they look like this:









Don


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Apiator said:


> All 5 are now dead.
> 
> Based on my exhaustive internet research, they froze. Our bee yard was getting to low 20-degree temps at night through the middle of May, or a month after installing the packages. (Which also means, of course, no nectar... so cold and starvation go hand-in-hand.)


I doubt they froze....they starved. A new package (a "fake swarm") needs to be fed enough to get established. Some cold nights will not kill a colony...if they have stores. There is no reason to expect a package to draw comb and produce stores under the circumstances you describe...did you feed them at all? how much? with what?

deknow


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

This is my first year in beekeeping and I went all foundationless. If you use foundation, people will argue to go foundationless, if you go foundationless they will argue for foundation. There's pros and cons to each and one type of frame may be more applicable to a certain set of circumstances than the other. The biggest hurdle that I've found in one's first year is getting a nice strong colony going, after you've accomplished that, experiment a little. I also went with top entrances my first year buahahaha


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## Kazzandra (Jul 7, 2010)

I heart foundationless! So glad I found out about it. And the bees draw it out and love it! I think my bees and their queen disagree that the comb they make themselves aren't 'accurately drawn' as they prefer to lay in the foundationless.

D Semple is absolutely correct about laddering them up. I had success with just interlacing foundation and foundationless and they drew them straight and nice, but with their third box, I pulled a few honey store up and replaced them with starter strips. :thumbsup:


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