# How likely will a hive swarm if you don't split it in the Spring?



## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

I have heard you can make bees or you can make honey from many different sources including a lot here. I really want to see at least 30 pounds of honey this year, and preferably a lot more (3 hives). I am expecting 3 packages in April, so I want honey more than I want more hives. As with most new beekeepers, I don't have much drawn comb to play with, so standard checkerboarding is out of the question.

If I don't split and they build up well (mites under control, good spring flow, no major setbacks) what is the likelyhood of swarming? I am looking for generality here, as I understand the dynamics of different regions, different types of bees, and differing years.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

2nd year hives swarm like crazy. California this year has early nectar and 80F temperatures, expect swarms early and fast.

You can spin out early honey, and generate wet empty frames to open the brood.

Adding undrawn frames for bees to pull will reduce swarming -- you cannot add the undrawn sheets as aggressively as drawn, but one at a time into the brood nest works fine. Just don't create a "curtain wall" of undrawn -- this cramps the brood nest. If any of the foundation is slightly pulled, add that, as the bees will finish the pull in 24 hours. 

Chilling colonies from over supering is not an issue when ambient daytime temps are 80 F, so super away like its going out of style.

I am warmer and further down the coast, but my production colonies have gotten one medium per week for the last 3 weeks, and I am still plugged out.


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## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

What do you do and when?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The chance established colonies with 2 year old queens will swarm is 100%. The best way to prevent swarming is to pull an early split and establish new colonies. Timing will be critical. Bees swarm during early fruit bloom up until the main flow is 1/3 of the way through. For my area, the earliest swarm date is usually March 25th. I think it might be earlier this year given the abnormally warm weather and ready availability of pollen.


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Norcalkyle said:


> What do you do and when?


Like JW says super to give plenty of expansion room and open the broodnest. Do not allow filled comb to completely cover the area over the brood, place some empty drawn or partially drawn comb.


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## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

Dont splits hurt honey production? If I don't have queens is a walkway split the best option?


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## mrflegel (Mar 23, 2014)

Packages can swarm. Reproductive swarms happen when the colony thinks it is strong enough to survive, start a new queen and send mom away to start a new colony. So by pulling honey and leaving them enough room to grow and store more honey you reduce the chance they will do so.
Splitting will slow down a hive if they are growing too fast, you can recombine them later if things go bad on the requening.
Best of luck and may spring arive soon.
Mike


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Norcalkyle said:


> Dont splits hurt honey production?


Swarming hurts honey production even more. Especially if they issue afterswarms, it will really have a negative impact on the hive as far as production goes.

You may want to focus your attention this year on building up as much "extra" drawn comb as you can so you are prepared the following spring. Drawn comb is the most valuable tool in your box for swarm prevention, as far as I'm concerned. 

If you plan on doing a split this spring to prevent swarming just do a relatively small split, and take the queen from the hive along with the split to simulate a swarm. If there are mature drones flying and it's the correct time of year your original hive will raise a new queen and it will probably prevent them from swarming. You should still end up with surplus honey for yourself.


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

Norcalkyle, You read what JWChestnut said about having added mediums for the last 3 weeks. He's close enough to you that I'd follow his lead.

Last year I used Walt Wright's method of opening up the broodnest to interrupt the swarming impulse. Like you I didn't have spare drawn comb so I added foundation to both sides of the brood nest. I moved the drawn comb up to the box I put above the first deep and added empty frames around those 2 frames. This kept the bees busy drawing out comb and gave them room to fill with nectar and the queen room to lay eggs. Out of my 8 colonies I only had the 2 Carniolans start to swarm. Those I did splits on and saved the bees from going to the trees.

Read Walt's method and in the front page and see it it helps you. I think it's under POV. If nothing else you'll understand the swarming impulse and and will be ready next spring to manage them to your benefit.

Good Luck


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Reliable advice already given above, but to expand on JWC's thought, HERE is a thread on opening the sides of the brood nest. The thread will be helpful in giving you an alternative strategy when you don't have drawn comb to fight the swarm impulse. HTH


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

You might want to read about using Snelgrove boards to forestall swarming and maximize honey production. With Snelgroves (aka double screen boards) you have the option of making increase, or culling the cells and recombining to maintain your hive numbers, while still going for honey production. The best instructions I found for using SB come from sites in the UK.

I used MattDavey's "Opening the sides of the brood nest" manipulations after my first year because I had almost no drawn comb and then added on Walt Wright's "Checkerboarding" technique the second year, plus I used Snelgroves after the mid-point in the build-up. This year I (probably, can't see inside the hives yet because it's still winter here) have enough drawn comb, but I will still use all three. I am still expanding my hive numbers so I will let the Snelgroved colonies make some new queens/nucs for me while the parent queen and the foragers sock away honey. Since I am expanding w/o buying bees that "excess" honey will be eventually used to provision the new colonies for winter. So I am using the the honey I make to feed more bees.

Enj.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Norcalkyle said:


> If I don't split and they build up well (mites under control, good spring flow, no major setbacks) what is the likelyhood of swarming? I am looking for generality here, as I understand the dynamics of different regions, different types of bees, and differing years.


Then realizing this, the likelihood is fifty-fifty:scratch:


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## Stonewall (Aug 27, 2013)

I rarely if ever spit in the spring. That is accomplished in June or July after the honey flow is over. Rather I demaree each hive twice each spring. This is a bit for work as I run two queens in a production hive, so each side has to be demaree'd.


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## yotebuster1200 (Jul 28, 2013)

Stonewall said:


> I rarely if ever spit in the spring. That is accomplished in June or July after the honey flow is over. Rather I demaree each hive twice each spring. This is a bit for work as I run two queens in a production hive, so each side has to be demaree'd.



I have never heard the work demaree. Can you explain for me please. (I will be a dressing Google by the time haha.)


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## quattro (Oct 2, 2014)

With the crazy weather here, I am not sure what to do in my second year. It was icing last night and it is 60 degrees today. One hive is so strong, that there was an absolute cloud of bees out and about today. I opened up the entrance a bit and I saw about ten different shades of pollen. There were several drones coming in and out. Does anyone have any suggestions on what I should do and when? I may open it up this week to look inside, any suggestions on what I should look for? I really do not want this hive to swarm.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Norcalkyle said:


> Dont splits hurt honey production? If I don't have queens is a walkway split the best option?


I am not sure if you are talking 3 overwintered hives and you will be getting 3 more packages or what? What are you going to split if you do? Getting honey from packages where you have no drawn comb is not that common. At least not here anyway. By the time you get the package built up the major flow is gone.
I think the key factor on making honey with a split is having the drawn comb. I would say you have a better chance of making honey if you don't split but if it swarms you lost it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

quattro said:


> Does anyone have any suggestions on what I should do and when?


I split overwintered boomers in the spring and then worry about having too many hives in the fall.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

First things first, what are your flows like and what's the current status of your overwintered hive in terms of frame counts? I've overwintered 20-30 colonies the last few years and only one hive swarms every year, and it's the same swarm queen I got in 2013 in West Sacramento. If your hive has room to grow, I typically don't worry about it. I also tend to keep boxes on, whether they need them or not and just let the bees grow back into them which seems to help prevent swarming as well. If you find them capping a bunch of honey, I will bottom super though, or move an emptier box down over the brood nest. Smaller hives I let build up and then checkerboard them Fatbeeman style (which is essentially adding a new box and breaking up the broodnest, but you really need to recognize when the hive is ready for this or you might set them back). I don't know how your location is though, but I do keep a few hives in urban areas with strong flows and they never want to swarm either as long as I inspect them regularly and let them draw some wax.


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## BeeBop (Apr 23, 2015)

enjambres said:


> You might want to read about using Snelgrove boards to forestall swarming and maximize honey production. With Snelgroves (aka double screen boards) you have the option of making increase, or culling the cells and recombining to maintain your hive numbers, while still going for honey production. The best instructions I found for using SB come from sites in the UK.


That's how I'm going to approach it this year and see how it goes. I've got my double screen boards built and ready to deploy when it looks like time.

This is one of the web pages I found useful, but there are many others...
http://barnsleybeekeepers.org.uk/snelgrove.html


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## Sky (Jul 7, 2015)

Kyle - I am north of you several hundred miles - with much crappier weather- and a shorter flying season... here, if your colony makes it thru its first winter and is still healthy, and YOU do not do ANY manipulations in the spring - they will swarm - every time - pretty much guaranteed.

*If I don't split and they build up well (mites under control, good spring flow, no major setbacks) what is the likelyhood of swarming?
*
You're talking packages..... that really depends on the space you have given the bees - if you dump them into a single deep with pre-drawn frames and then do nothing - they will undoubtedly swarm and swarm and swarm. 
To prevent a swarm (lots of ideas above) - split em, or give them something to do (ie, add more room, or remove full frames so they stay busy - remove their queen, so they focus on creating a new one, etc.), or watch them hit the trees en masse.

If you already have some drawn comb, and you are starting with 3 fresh packages, I would think your goal of 30Lbs total of honey this year should easily be realized (you;d be taking only 1.5 deep frames of honey per hive, or 2-3 medium frames per hive to meet your goal - If you have a decent flow, and your bees are not lazy - you may NEED to remove this much [or more] from the brood nest just to prevent swarming....). 

Sky
Sky


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Norcalkyle said:


> ... If I don't have queens is a walkway split the best option?


Don't do walk-away splits. You lose a month of premium nectar flow (that's your honey) while they are requeening. Buy mated queens and introduce them to the divides. I use Laidlaw cages for this because the new mated queen gets to lay her eggs under protection of the cage. I release her after the workers demonstrate feeding behavior instead of attack ball behavior.

Mike Gillmore's suggestion to do a small split is a good idea. A strong colony like 3 deeps tall can make more bees and more honey than 3 one-box-tall colonies. Use excluders and pull off a box that does not have young larvae nor eggs and add a mated queen to it. Do it again next month. And again later if the nectar / pollen flow allows.

For swarm postponement, Michael Bush adds an empty frame to the brood nest. This works great with the small split idea - do this to the parent hive, but not to the new increaser colony.


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## Stonewall (Aug 27, 2013)

Yote asked what a Demaree was. George Demaree first described this method of swarm supression in 1884. This was modified several times and by 1892 the method I use was described.
In my area the first evidence of swarm preparation will occur about March 15. At that time all the brood save one frame is removed from the brood box but the queen is identified and returned to the brood box. A queen excluder is placed above the brood chamber. I use two 8 frame mediums as the brood chamber. One or two supers are placed above this and a super or two with the brood is placed above this.
Since the queen is left with the field force in the brood chamber and scant to non-existant brood, she thinks that she has swarmed. In 3 weeks the brood chamber will again be full of brood, requiring another transfer of brood. About 3 weeks after this a cut down split will be done to encourage more honey storage. Any cells started in the transfered brood are destroyed. The transfered brood erupt in time for their cells to be filled with honey, therefore the harvested honey is not contaminated with brood.
As I had stated earlier I run two queens in a hive so the procedure is a bit more complicated. These 2 queen hives are two 8 frame boxes side by side with a 10 frame excluder stradling them. A 10 frame box is stacked above this. The laterial margines of the brood boxes are fitted with a sloping half top. This provided modest access to the brood boxes without disturbing the honey tower.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

The answer to your question depends on the answer to another -* what stock are you running? 
*
From:http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/the-different-types-of-honey-bees/ (I'm loving all the info over there)

*The Carniolan bee:*

_"Because of their rapid buildup, carniolan bees tend to have a high propensity to swarm (their effort to relieve overcrowding) and, therefore, may leave the beekeeper with a very poor honey crop. This stock requires continued vigilance to prevent the loss of swarms."_

Carniolans are judged "High" for excess swarming, Italians & Russian are "OK", Buckfast & Caucasians are "Low". I seldom see Buckfast swarms. Not even after 3 years. They are much more inclined to supersede. I was only a little surprised to see 2 swarms last year, but that was following 5-6 weeks of almost endless and highly unusual spring rains. They were 2 & 3 year old hives/queens.

So - what kind of stock are you running? 

I buy mail order queens and place small splits ( 4-5 medium frames of brood & stores) above a double screen board over parent colonies. Once they get going & the flows kick in, I move them aside and super up. The parent colony gets all the foragers from the split and collects a crop like nothing much happened. The splits usually do well also - often gathering a nice crop, and always strong enough to overwinter. Obviously, your mileage will vary with stock & seasons.

Good luck!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Colobee said:


> So - what kind of stock are you running?


So, what's in your wallet?


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Double post


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Capital One, of course - Buckfast forever...:lookout:


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Speaking of "all that info" over in the USDA resources, I may have found an explanation for Mr Bush's outbreak of mean Buckfast back around the turn of the millennia...

From: http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/the-different-types-of-honey-bees/ ( same as above)

To begin with: _"Wide variation exists within stocks as well as among them. Any generalities about a particular stock should be treated with caution, since there are always exceptions to the rule."_

Then, with regard to my preference:*The Buckfast bee*:
_Bees of this stock are moderately defensive. However, if left un-managed for one or two generations,they can be among the most fiercely defensive bees of any stock._

Note that they say "can" & not "will". I find them mostly gentle under normal conditions. A few might be labeled "moderately defensive". I've generally followed a 2-3 year re-queening plan. I haven't minded having a testy hive or two, on occasion - they help train the young bears . I've only had one super-hot Buckfast hive in 35 years. Most "testy" hives have had skunk trails, or some other hint of marauders setting them off.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Any hive, large or small, with proper swarm control, should not swarm. I do not care if it is a first or second year queen. If you avoid giving them ANY reason to swarm, they will not. And if you are wise, with proper care, you can even build up populations faster, and larger, than without manipulations. 

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> And if you are wise, with proper care, you can even build up populations faster, and larger, than without manipulations.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Now wait a minute Roland ... without manipulations? You sucked me in now give it up.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

What's hard about it Ace? I've only had the same queen swarm on me year to year, all my other hives have never went into swarm prep, some get fairly crowded and packed at times. I don't really do anything to manage swarming other than adding boxes when they need it or sometimes if they're past due.


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## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

Beekeeping is awesome!!! There are answers from 100% of hives will swarm unless split to they won't swarm at all even if you are not right on top of expansion. You guys/girls have both helped me and confused me tremendously. I guess that is one of the reasons I have been so intrigued by beekeeping.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Part of it is locational, I'm sure if my bees could put up a box a week of honey, I'd have to do something, but they can't in this area, which is why you need to see how your conditions are. Honestly, before the almond bloom, my hives in Yolo county had absolutely nothing to forage on.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

JRG13 said:


> What's hard about it Ace?


You tell me. Ca is such a big state that stretches from Mexico to Alaska. That is like Me to Fl on the east coast. Surely there is a difference and knowing the difference make a difference. Can you write a protocol that will work for all of CA? Let's hear it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> You tell me. Ca is such a big state that stretches from Mexico to Alaska.


:scratch::s
Say what????

Isn't there a chunk of land called CANADA between California and Alaska? :lpf:
What about Oregon and Washington too?


.


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## BeeBop (Apr 23, 2015)

Acebird said:


> You tell me. Ca is such a big state that stretches from Mexico to Alaska.


Dude, you owe me a new keyboard. You just made me shoot beer out of my nose and into mine.
I just love your sense of humor sometimes. Cuz THAT was funny...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> :scratch::s
> Say what????
> 
> Isn't there a chunk of land called CANADA between California and Alaska? :lpf:
> .


Oh common Rader it is just a short boat ride. Why you got to be so picky?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeBop said:


> Dude, you owe me a new keyboard.


Next one we have to throw in the dumpster is yours.:thumbsup:


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## Bee Nut (Oct 10, 2015)

quattro said:


> With the crazy weather here, I am not sure what to do in my second year. It was icing last night and it is 60 degrees today. One hive is so strong, that there was an absolute cloud of bees out and about today. I opened up the entrance a bit and I saw about ten different shades of pollen. There were several drones coming in and out. Does anyone have any suggestions on what I should do and when? I may open it up this week to look inside, any suggestions on what I should look for? I really do not want this hive to swarm.


Quattro, I am in Beaufort and most of my hives had at least 6 frames of capped brood today. I added 10 frames of foundation because I'm in the same boat without drawn comb to spare. Last week I added a frame of foundation in the brood nest and today they were all mostly drawn. This is the configuration I used:
FFFDDDDFFF
FFDDDDDDFF
DDDDDDDD

D=drawn; F=Foundation

Today, one hive had an active swarm cell (same hive had 3 swarm cells week before last). My hives are a story and a half and went into winter very strong. I reversed them so I could make the pyramid as shown above. Also, they are eating about a gallon of 2:1 sugar syrup a week and still have empty comb on the sides. The goal is to get them to draw as much comb as possible before the real flow and then cut off the syrup. I'll add another super of foundation as soon as there are 6-7 drawn frames of the 10 I just added. I requeened last September so my queens are young (helps squash swarming instinct). No guarantees this is going to work but I want honey and this is my best shot. Swarm traps are set just in case. If all goes well I'll do walk away splits after the flow (July).


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Yikes, that went south in a hurry. I have relatives in Oregon, and my sister used to live in Washington... I don't think they ever considered themselves part of Cali. Cali, then 2 whole states, then a bit of Canada, then Alaska... Geography lesson concluded.

Some bees have a stronger tendency to swarm. There are a number of swarm prevention methods to reduce the likelihood that they will swarm. Beekeeping lessons to continue...


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Acebird - please re-read my sentence. I believe you will then understand that I was attempting to convey the idea that a MANIPULATED hive can expand faster and be more populace than a non-intervention hive, especially if the non-intervention hive swarms. Our manipulations can allow faster build-up AND prevent swarming. Clear now?

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> Our manipulations can allow faster build-up AND prevent swarming. Clear now?
> 
> Crazy Roland


Yeah, I got it now.


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

Stonewall, thanks for taking the time to describe how you use Demaree. It sounds like a neat way to delay splitting till there are plenty of drones while lessening the chance of a swarm. I assume the workers bees, young and old, can pass back and forth between brood chamber and the top box where brood is located. Am I understanding correctly that you are placing 2 honey supers between the brood chamber and capped brood box? (the queen excluder prevents the queen leaving the brood chamber).

I need to look up the definition of a "cut down split" and see how it differs from a split to create a nucleus.



Stonewall said:


> Yote asked what a Demaree was. George Demaree first described this method of swarm supression in 1884. This was modified several times and by 1892 the method I use was described.
> In my area the first evidence of swarm preparation will occur about March 15. At that time all the brood save one frame is removed from the brood box but the queen is identified and returned to the brood box. A queen excluder is placed above the brood chamber. I use two 8 frame mediums as the brood chamber. One or two supers are placed above this and a super or two with the brood is placed above this.
> Since the queen is left with the field force in the brood chamber and scant to non-existant brood, she thinks that she has swarmed. In 3 weeks the brood chamber will again be full of brood, requiring another transfer of brood. About 3 weeks after this a cut down split will be done to encourage more honey storage. Any cells started in the transfered brood are destroyed. The transfered brood erupt in time for their cells to be filled with honey, therefore the harvested honey is not contaminated with brood.
> As I had stated earlier I run two queens in a hive so the procedure is a bit more complicated. These 2 queen hives are two 8 frame boxes side by side with a 10 frame excluder stradling them. A 10 frame box is stacked above this. The laterial margines of the brood boxes are fitted with a sloping half top. This provided modest access to the brood boxes without disturbing the honey tower.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Since my hives are at home here, and I'm not generally selecting for sales, I make big splits. I pull a full 8 frame, 2 new, foundationless, & 6 mixed, from a double deep. Give the original queen that much more room, and she will usually stay. It seems extreme, but she will just leave without a significant "remodel". Then, you have; 1 hive, on a queen-making brood break,(30 days, more or less), and 1/2 the hive left with her Highness. Or you have 2 good hives. 2 yr old hives, generally swarm if you do nothing. 


RE; geography of the west, really its only an 1800 mile gap. Hardly noticeable.


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

When members here describe a 2 year old hive, are they meaning a 2 year old queen? Does "2 years" mean the second year (1 year old) or does it mean the 3rd year (2 years old)?


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

BeeAttitudes said:


> When members here describe a 2 year old hive, are they meaning a 2 year old queen? Does "2 years" mean the second year (1 year old) or does it mean the 3rd year (2 years old)?


I think it depends on the "details" of the member lots can happen if she is not marked


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

BeeAttitudes said:


> When members here describe a 2 year old hive, are they meaning a 2 year old queen? Does "2 years" mean the second year (1 year old) or does it mean the 3rd year (2 years old)?


I believe it means a queen in her second year, in other words, overwintered. If she was new last summer, this would be her 2nd year.

Must be like the biological clock of the 20s to 30s.

And we are the birth control. LOL.


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