# Inpector Came Today



## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

So, the PA state inspector came to check my hives today. I wasn't concerned, more excited to meet somebody with so much more knowledge than I have. We talked for a little while and then got the smoker going. I am up to four hives from the two I started with this year. Two top bars and two foundationless langs. On last inspection I didn't have much brood, so I was looking forward to seeing any progress. We opened the first hive which had a lot of drones when I looked the last time. It had plenty of food being stored and plenty of capped brood. Hive number two was the same but about twice the size. The first lang is from a cut out I did a couple weeks ago. There were plenty of bees, but not much brood. Then, we pulled a frame and he was excited to tell and show me my virgin queen. That made my day. The last hive was a split I did over a month ago. This one had no queen, but a laying worker. He explained that it's not a problem. I just need to take the hive some distance, shake off the bees, and add some new brood with eggs to raise a new queen. He explained that the laying bee won't be able to fly back because of her swollen abdomen, but the others will find their way back. All in all it was a great experience. I learned a lot and I was glad to hear how well my bees are doing.


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Laying workers can fly just fine


----------



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Personaly I feel there are better ways to deal with a laying worker, But To each his own. Who is your Inspector out that way? Kent Kaster is ours. Dan Borkoski is a nice fellow too.


----------



## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

His name is Nate Webber. Really nice guy. We hit it off immediately because we both have beards and ponytails. What other ways could I solve this problem? I want to make sure they are set for winter. I only moved four combs when splitting the hive. Three were brood and one was new comb with nectar that sagged a good bit. There is a queen cell that looks like she emerged, but she's nowhere to be found. Now, after Nate showing me what to look for, I know there are multiple eggs laid in each cell. First time I had seen eggs. I am open to suggestions for a solution to my dilemma. Thanks.


----------



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Nate Webber a young fellow with long hair and a beard, this would be the beginning of his third year as an inspector. However he is just starting out as a beekeeper himself. So although his education qualifies him as a bee inspector, The ability to recognize bee diseases and recommend, even order treatment. He lacks the real world experience as a beekeeper to rely completely on his advice in practical bee keeping. I am not saying his suggestions are worthless, but I would certainly verify them with proven techniques, if for not other reason the offer yourself the option of choosing from techniques that may suit your situation best. 

In the case of laying worker hives shaking them out and removing their hive all together so they can beg their way into other hives in one thing, as pheromones given off by laying Workers keep her from being accepted into a queenright hive. Laying workers are present in every hive about 1% of the bees. brood pheromones keep them from laying. only when the lack of brood allows them to develop ample ovarian function to produce numerous eggs. do they become a problem and will actually kill a queen. Shaking them out and allowing them to return to their hive leaves a significant chance that the LW(s) will make the trip back. this technique is actually archaic by todays standard.
In my opinion the best technique is to give the hive a frame of open brood once a week until the hive builds a queen cell on one of the added frames. At this point you can either allow the hive to raise a queen, or remove the queen cells and introduce a bred queen. The only time I forgo this method is when time is short before winter in areas where overwintering requires advanced preparation. at which time I hake them out in front of established hives and remove their hive from the yard.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Do PA Apiary Inspectors bear any liability for the management advice they give? In NY, we were told to never advise a beekeeper on what they aught to do or how they should do something. ID diseases and pests, that's the job.


----------



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Do PA Apiary Inspectors bear any liability for the management advice they give? In NY, we were told to never advise a beekeeper on what they aught to do or how they should do something. ID diseases and pests, that's the job.


 It is the same in Pa. they are cautioned against offering management advice. They do however have the authority to dictate treatment for certain diseases. If the prescribed treatment is not performed within the prescribed time frame they have the authority to seize and destroy the hives. "Applied consent"


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>...I just need to take the hive some distance, shake off the bees, and add some new brood with eggs to raise a new queen. 

Depending on how far into laying workers they are, they might raise a new queen, but shaking them is unnecessary.

>He explained that the laying bee won't be able to fly back because of her swollen abdomen, but the others will find their way back. 

He is not the first to believe this nor the first to offer this advice. But it's been pretty thoroughly disproved.

Info on laying workers:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm

I would give them a frame of open brood and eggs every week for three weeks. No need to shake them out unless you want to call it a loss and give the equipment to some other hive.


----------



## Deeohgee (Jun 28, 2015)

I would have located her, if possible, and killed her. And then I would have introduced a new queen into the hive.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I would have located her...

If it's laying workers there are at least hundreds and possibly thousands of them. No point trying to locate "her".


----------



## Deeohgee (Jun 28, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> >I would have located her...
> 
> If it's laying workers there are at least hundreds and possibly thousands of them. No point trying to locate "her".


Key words are worker (singular) and workers (plural) - "This one had no queen, but a laying worker.He explained that *the laying bee* won't be able to fly back because of *her* swollen abdomen,"

Every word in the original post was singular.


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

You can't distinguish laying workers, and it's more than one.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laying_worker_bee
Lack of queen pheromone and lack of brood is what triggers them. So how would you turn off the laying workers? 

Just did it with success. Add some brood from another colony and let them make a queen or there are 8 other paths you could take but shaking the bees away from the hive is not on the list.

The #1 reference is...
Bush Farms


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Deeohgee said:


> Key words are worker (singular) and workers (plural) - "This one had no queen, but a laying worker.He explained that *the laying bee* won't be able to fly back because of *her* swollen abdomen,"
> 
> Every word in the original post was singular.


And wrong.


----------



## Deeohgee (Jun 28, 2015)

sqkcrk said:


> And wrong.


Please explain how so. Every word in the following that deals with The Layer Bee is in a singular, at least in the college I went to. So here is the excerpt from the portion of the original post dealing with a singular laying worker bee. He refers to the other "BEEs" finding there way back, but not thee laying worker bee.

This one had no queen, but a laying worker. He explained that it's not a problem. I just need to take the hive some distance, shake off the bees, and add some new brood with eggs to raise a new queen. He explained that the laying bee won't be able to fly back because of her swollen abdomen, but the others will find their way back. All in all it was a great experience. I learned a lot and I was glad to hear how well my bees are doing. 
sqkcrk - Please show me the error of my ways?
I may not have my new glasses yet, so I must not see too well?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"a" as in "a laying worker". There are never only one. "won't fly back because of its swollen abdomen." What swollen abdomen? I dare you to find a worker with a swollen abdomen and show it to me. Besides that, fully mated queens, who actually have a swollen abdomen, because they have been mated and therefore have a full spermatheca, fully mated queens fly.

Why would a laying worker bee have a swollen abdomen?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Every word in the original post was singular.

And therein lies the primary problem with the advice. The other problem is that laying workers can fly just fine and they do know their way to the hive. Yes, this solution is commonly touted in old beekeeping books. I tried shaking them out many times before I learned that it didn't work. Research has shown that they know their way back and that there are many of them. There are multiple laying workers even in a queen right hive. It's when you have hundreds or thousands that it starts to be an issue.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Gee, where did I read that before? :scratch:


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Yes, laying workers are indistinguishable from other workers and yes it's highly unlikely that there is just a single laying worker. I'm not convinced, though, that the shakeout method while far from foolproof is entirely without merit for a couple of reasons. First, my understanding is that laying workers aren't old field bees but rather younger nurse bees who may not be well enough oriented to return to the original spot. Secondly, if you can place enough queenright bees in the old spot, a laying worker may not be well received by this new population of younger nurse bees particularly if open brood and the corresponding pheromones are present. 
In any case, your success rate in rebuilding a queenless hive will be considerably higher if you move it to a different location letting the old field bees scatter and try their luck at getting admitted to queenright hives.


----------



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Jim:
Here is some food for thought. The ovaries of worker bees that develop significantly enough to produce eggs are less than 1% I think .7% but do not quote me. Since it can take up to 12 days for a queens ovaries to develop after emergence. One would only assume that the same would apply to a worker bee. Are we to assume that worker bees who develop ovaries ample to produce eggs never defecate? Thus would have never oriented for a cleansing flight. Since my car is parked just over 200 yards from my apiary. and always is well frassed, It would also be reasonable to assume that bees fly at least 200 yards to defecate. So would it not be reasonable to further assume that the average laying worker should be able to find her way back to a hive from at least 200 yards. Furthermore, if house bees are capable of becoming so loyal to a laying worker that they would ball an actual queen would it not also be reasonable to assume that they would guide a laying worker back to the hive.. Just pondering! 

Disclaimer: Wherever used herein the singular shall include the plural and the plural shall include the singular! :lpf:


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Defecation? Hmmmm. Interesting perspective. We shouldn't forget, though, that royalty in the hive has never been relegated to the outdoor toilet. Do laying workers qualify? Guess I don't know the answer to that one. 
Whether you choose to shake out bees or not in the hope of eliminating some laying workers is really not terribly relevant to me. My method when rebuilding queenless hives (with a qc) is to sandwich a frame of open brood and bees between 2 frames of mostly sealed brood and bees and shake out enough of the queenless bees so that the queenless bees are in a minority in the hive. Our success rate is usually in the 60 to 70 per cent range. The key is what you add is more important than what you get rid of.


----------



## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Primary swarms have the "old" mated Queen in them. Not only can they fly to the landing site, if you don't hive them, they may fly away to parts unknown. So I think the probability of a laying worker being able to fly and finding her way back to be pretty high. Multiply that by how many LWs there are in the hive. I would go with the adding brood method.

Alex


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I'm not convinced, though, that the shakeout method while far from foolproof is entirely without merit...

I don't think it's "entirely without merit" either because sometimes it disrupts things enough that the bees are willing to accept a new queen. It changes the colony's outlook on life to get shaken out and sometimes that's enough. But usually it's not.


----------



## Deeohgee (Jun 28, 2015)

sqkcrk said:


> "a" as in "a laying worker". There are never only one. "won't fly back because of its swollen abdomen." What swollen abdomen? I dare you to find a worker with a swollen abdomen and show it to me. Besides that, fully mated queens, who actually have a swollen abdomen, because they have been mated and therefore have a full spermatheca, fully mated queens fly.
> 
> Why would a laying worker bee have a swollen abdomen?


I do not disagree with your statement of fact about more than one laying worker bee. I was also trying to make a point of, the word in singular manner, as if it we one queen you knocked off. But for you to quote me and then just state wrong is wrong. My grammar was correct. TY


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Deeohgee said:


> I would have located her, if possible, and killed her. And then I would have introduced a new queen into the hive.


It's not about word usage it's about the fact that the advice you gave in this post is fundamentally flawed.


----------



## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

Well, thanks for the advice, although I wasn't trying to start a debate. But I know everyone has very strong beliefs and opinions when it comes to the best way to care for bees. I will try to get a frame of brood moved this weekend. But I only have two hives to take from and all the frames we pulled for the inspection were full and capped. I will have to get one from closer to the entrance where we didn't check. I doubt I will have more then one or two, so I'll have to keep my fingers crossed that they start a new queen quickly.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Deeohgee said:


> Key words are worker (singular) and workers (plural) - "This one had no queen, but a laying worker.He explained that *the laying bee* won't be able to fly back because of *her* swollen abdomen,"
> 
> Every word in the original post was singular.


Every word in the original post was singular, but the advice and the explanation was incorrect. My assertion is the there never is just one laying worker and the idea that a laying worker's abdomen may be so swollen, for reasons beyond my imagination, so much so that it would be unable to fly is preposterous. 

That's what I was referring to. I tend to be blunt sometimes. In part because I may have a false impression that people aught to be smart enough to see things they apparently cannot. So it is I who is at fault here and I will try to keep that in mind next time.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

EvanS said:


> Well, thanks for the advice, although I wasn't trying to start a debate. But I know everyone has very strong beliefs and opinions when it comes to the best way to care for bees. I will try to get a frame of brood moved this weekend. But I only have two hives to take from and all the frames we pulled for the inspection were full and capped. I will have to get one from closer to the entrance where we didn't check. I doubt I will have more then one or two, so I'll have to keep my fingers crossed that they start a new queen quickly.


Don't bother. Being where you live and the time of year, my suggestion would be to do a newspaper combining of the two colonies, putting the queenless one on top of you queen right one. Otherwise, seems like almost anything you do to the queenless hive will be a waste of time and resources.

I'm sure there will be plenty who will argue otherwise.


----------



## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

So, cut open brood from my top bar and band into a frame in a deep by itself, layer of newspaper and the queenless deep on top of that? Both my langs are new, my split and my cut out. Will the bees move down to the new comb through the newspaper and requeen? If so, will they stay in one deep or start building comb in two? Or, since it's been a few weeks, should I just not bother since the current workers will die soon and I'll be left with drones. At that point it seems that it would just be like splitting the original hive. I know that's a lot of questions. Thanks.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh, heck. It's your top bar hive that has the laying worker in it? Is that right? Forget about it. Leave it alone and concentrate on the queen right hive.


----------



## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

No, the top bar is fine, actually a very strong hive. That's where the queenless split came from. They were about to swarm, so I split them, but not in time. They swarmed, but are still my strongest colony. I put the split in a lang. There was an open/emerged queen cell not long after the split, but I never found the queen. Thought it was just my inexperience, but I guess she wasn't there on my first inspection.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So, for the learning impaired, how many Langs do you have colonies in?


----------



## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

EvanS said:


> No, the top bar is fine, actually a very strong hive. That's where the queenless split came from. They were about to swarm, so I split them, but not in time. They swarmed, but are still my strongest colony. I put the split in a lang. There was an open/emerged queen cell not long after the split, but I never found the queen. Thought it was just my inexperience, but I guess she wasn't there on my first inspection.


So you split your top bar hive into a lang?

Your current status is 2 queen-right top bar hives, 1 lang with a virgin queen and 1 lang with a laying worker?


----------



## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

zhiv9 said:


> So you split your top bar hive into a lang?
> 
> Your current status is 2 queen-right top bar hives, 1 lang with a virgin queen and 1 lang with a laying worker?


 This is exactly what I have. The lang with the virgin queen is from a cut out a few weeks ago, so they don't have much to offer for the problematic hive.


----------



## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Can you rig a top bar frame to fit a lang temporarily. If so, you could rotate a frame into the lang, move it back to the TB and at the same time move another from the TB to the lang three times, a week apart. That way you would not destroy your TB resources. I'm talking about something quick and simple like scab some extensions onto the ends of your TB frames. Of course you couldn't leave them long without the bees trying to "fix' them. Just thinking aloud here.

Alex


----------



## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

That might work. I would have to trim the bottoms of the combs, though. My top bars a about two inches deeper then a deep. At this point I think I may give up on the split. There are not many bees in there now, about half drones, and the only capped cells are drone cells which aren't many. If nothing else, maybe I can chalk this up to a learning experience and a drone will mate with my virgin queen. And, I can possibly use this deep as a swarm trap next year. I'll take a look this weekend and make a decision.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

I had a top bar make queen cells late this spring so I split it three ways. At the time my top bar nucs were way far away but I had one so...the third split went into a Lang nuc. The bees drew the combs out to be square and life goes on. It is that easy to convert from top bar to lang if your bars are cut the right length. Mine aren't.

So how did it work? When I started the mother top bar it stalled for a week so I added cut up lang frames to give it a boost. Had always planned on somehow getting those frames and plastic foundations out of the hive and the bees solved that problem themselves or forced me to. The lang frames (bars) went into the lang nuc.
It's like they read my plan book this time.


----------



## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

I only had a deep lang to split into, so that's what I did. I moved a three queen cells to the new hive and one emerged, but I never saw her. At this point with the laying worker situation and only a couple hundred bees, I have decided to let them run there course and not requeen this late in the year. They have built a small amount of new comb, but that's it and all brood is drones. There is enough comb that it should work for a swarm trap next year. If I'd had one before I could have possibly saved my bees that swarmed.


----------

