# Bees absconding in late fall



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Couple questions about your hive. How and when was the hive started? Package, NUC, in yard split? How old was the hive? This year, last year, two years ago? 

Answer those questions and it could help to figure out if this was actually an abscond or something more sinister..


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If there was no brood it means that 3 weeks ago minimum, the queen was not laying, or the hive was queenless. Is no brood normal where you are at this time of year?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Other than the fact that there are no bees in the hive, what makes you think they absconded?


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> Other than the fact that there are no bees in the hive, what makes you think they absconded?


See that's where I was going with my questions. lol Sounds more like a queen failure to me. If they would have absconded they would have taken the honey with them or robbed it out once they found the new home.


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

To answer your questions:
This was from a package started in spring. By the end of October, it had built out three full mediums and was filled with bees. I am in Annapolis MD, and it was probably averaging about 60 degrees during the day. The reason. I suspect absconding rather than queen failure is because I have never seen a queenless hive without at least a few stragglers hanging around, or an emergency queen cell or something. We had a cold snap, so perhaps it just hasn't been warm enough for robbers yet. 

What I really need to know is how best to preserve the comb. Any ideas?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, of course, they aren't there anymore and everything was fine three weeks ago, so they must have absconded. Because it couldn't be that the beekeeper was mistaken and things weren't fine, could it?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wishthecuttlefish said:


> What I really need to know is how best to preserve the comb. Any ideas?


Extract them and store them where mice can't get to them.


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

I certainly could be mistaken. The hive might have been in real trouble and I didn't catch it. Probably no way to know for sure, since I didn't check for eggs at last inspection. Thanks, I will extract.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Did you check for mites 6 weeks ago? Did you treat for mites 6 weeks ago?


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

Yes, I checked and treated for mites 6 weeks ago. Oxalic acid vapor, two treatments, one week apart. Checked for mites again, mite drop was significantly lower. Decided not to treat a third time. Hive "appeared" strong 2 weeks after last oxalic treatment. I have examined every frame of the three mediums, front to back. Zero sign of emergency queen cells, which I would expect if the hive suddenly went queenless.

I'm not exactly a newbie, but I haven't seen every situation, certainly. I have had hives go queenless before, and the signs I am used to seeing are a slow dwindling of the hive, with bees hanging around in an ever smaller group, perhaps laying workers, and attempts at emergency queen rearing. This completely empty hive with just honey left over is a new one for me.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Fall Absconds In my experince are always based on food supply, empty hives will abscond. hives full of honey do not. So if it were me and there was honey left, I would suspect many other things, but not abscond.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wishthecuttlefish said:


> Yes, I checked and treated for mites 6 weeks ago. Oxalic acid vapor, two treatments, one week apart. Checked for mites again, mite drop was significantly lower. Decided not to treat a third time. Hive "appeared" strong 2 weeks after last oxalic treatment. I have examined every frame of the three mediums, front to back. Zero sign of emergency queen cells, which I would expect if the hive suddenly went queenless.
> 
> I'm not exactly a newbie, but I haven't seen every situation, certainly. I have had hives go queenless before, and the signs I am used to seeing are a slow dwindling of the hive, with bees hanging around in an ever smaller group, perhaps laying workers, and attempts at emergency queen rearing. This completely empty hive with just honey left over is a new one for me.


People who know more than I might say, "Hive drop does not a mite count make."


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

Storing the honey frames is the question.. How many frames do you have? Do you have other hives? Do you know someone with a bigger freezer? The bees are gone, can't worry about the now!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wishthecuttlefish said:


> Yes, I checked and treated for mites 6 weeks ago. Oxalic acid vapor, two treatments, one week apart. Checked for mites again, mite drop was significantly lower. Decided not to treat a third time. Hive "appeared" strong 2 weeks after last oxalic treatment. I have examined every frame of the three mediums, front to back. Zero sign of emergency queen cells, which I would expect if the hive suddenly went queenless.


No brood at all...not even a few capped cells?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I guess CCD is still on.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bees of SC said:


> Storing the honey frames is the question.. How many frames do you have? Do you have other hives? Do you know someone with a bigger freezer? The bees are gone, can't worry about the now!


I know that MD isn't NY, but I store my honey supers outdoors and covered all Winter. You aught to be able to do that in MD too.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Viral collapse.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

odfrank said:


> Viral collapse.


I'm thinking the same and why I asked if there weren't a few cells of capped brood.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

In my 24 years as a beekeeper, I have seen absconding in one setting and one setting only:
On Beesource!
We run a lot of hives, nucs and raise queens.
We have had, at one time or another every problem that everybody else has had.
Absconding?
I only read about that on Beesource, usually from new beekeepers.
Reminds me of a lady that came to a bee meeting and announced that her first hive that she started in the spring had died of CCD.....

I think we are all better off when attempting to find answers, to describe symptoms and not feel the need to assign a scary name.
Otherwise we start from the position of trying to figure out why or why not...... rather than, "Here is what I observed in the hive, frame by frame, bottom board, on the ground, etc..."


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dang, Harry. How I wish I had your talent and skill and tact. I have been simply saying that absconding is Bee Ess. The way you put it is much better.

And I love your tag line.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Biggest hazard to bees? Unprepared new beekeepers!!!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

HarryVanderpool said:


> In my 24 years as a beekeeper, I have seen absconding in one setting and one setting only:
> On Beesource!


Well, here's something additional on absconding, and on BS at that. 

I've seen what I think is absconding often enough, always in nucleus colonies. The nuc gets build up into 4x4 configuration with large population. Then in August we get hot humid weather. Too hot and humid for the bees to be able to cool off their cavity. First they beard. If that doesn't help and the conditions persist they leave. What does it look like?

Standing there and watching, the bees pour out of the hive...like a swarm. But, they don't cluster anywhere as a normal swarm would. Rather they fly away and out of sight. Looking in the hive at the brood, there are no queen cells and almost no bees. If you don't discover the situation for a week, you find a small population...young newly emerged bees and the foragers that were in the field when the colony left. There will be emergency cells, not swarm cells.

The actions of the bees and the resulting condition of the colony leads me to believe what they have done is different than swarming. What would you call it?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

The only absconding I've seen was driven by intolerable in hive conditions...around here usually from small hive beetle infestations. I'm sure what Michael Palmer describes is true. I've heard people I thought to be knowledgeable state that if they run out of stores they may abscond...but in my experience they simply starve. I've read posts from people who believe their bees absconded when varroa mite loads became excessive. I believe that what they're seeing is what the op from this thread saw. A rapid dwindling of a sickly bee colony that is most likely, in my opinion, a result of a heavy mite infestation.


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

Thanks for all the replies. There are some questions to answer so let me get to it.
1. Michael Palmer, I found one single capped cell on 30 frames. Not a single bee in the hive, except for about 3 or 4 dead ones on the bottom screen.
2. There are 30 frames total. I run all mediums and they had filled out all 30.
3. I am not a new beekeeper. 10+ years. But I did stop for a year and this is a new hive packaged in spring.
4. There were no bees with deformed wings, which I have personally seen before, and I tend to keep an eye out for those things.
5. No sign of small hive beetle infestation, which I have unfortunately also seen before.
6. Yes, SQKCRK, your delivery leaves much to be desired. I chalk it up to just another crusty old beekeeper on Beesource who means well, but is too old to give a ****. I appreciate your advice and help regardless.

So, the general consensus seems to be that the bees didn't abscond, but rather the hive dwindled due to a dead queen and/or some other factor like excessive varroa mites.

I must admit I'm a bit skeptical of the excessive varroa diagnosis for the following reasons: 1. Hive was recently treated 2x with oxalic, 2. It was a new package so it started out with no foretic mites in spring. 3. The bottom tray didn't show huge numbers of mites even after treatment. No, I didn't do alcohol mite count, so my estimate of the mite load may be wrong. My gut is telling me it was some other reason, but I certainly won't discount it and will pay much closer attention next time.

Either way, I wonder if anyone has done any experiments on how long it takes for a hive to dwindle after the queen dies. Will the bees leave before all the brood has emerged?


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## charmd2 (May 25, 2008)

I find 12 weeks no queen before the hive is completely dead is a fairly good estimate. 16 if it was a booming hive.

It is a goner well before that though. After 4 weeks I have been unable to recover them.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

wishthecuttlefish said:


> I wonder if anyone has done any experiments on how long it takes for a hive to dwindle after the queen dies.


I have some many years that go for much of the winter queenless....frequently entering spring with a good population of old bees. A frame of brood and a new queen in March....and they're rebooted.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i have seen true absconding once due to an intolerable beetle/moth infestation as dan describes. fortunately they settled on a tree nearby and were caught.

i'm leaning toward queen failure on this one. with pms more dead brood and dead bees on the bottom board would be expected, along with observations of dwv and crawlers. did you have a chance to check the brood comb for frass?



wishthecuttlefish said:


> I didn't check for eggs at last inspection.





wishthecuttlefish said:


> Hive "appeared" strong 2 weeks after last oxalic treatment.


are you talking about seeing lots of bees on the topbars or coming and going from the entrance? how long ago was it that you went through the stack and observed brood? 

if the colony has been queenless for some time, and if the bees were kept busy processing syrup into capped stores, there may have simply attrition due to natural aging. the one thing that argues against queenlessness is that robbing usually takes place and it doesn't sound like that happened here.

could it be that the queen was injured during your last deep inspection? if so, and not seeing queen cells could mean that there were no eggs or young larvae at the time for them to make one.

are there any other hives nearby that these bees could have drifted to and joined?

if you have other hives, another option would be to winter those frames of stores on them.

thanks for sharing your interesting case.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

beemandan said:


> I have some many years that go for much of the winter queenless....frequently entering spring with a good population of old bees. A frame of brood and a new queen in March....and they're rebooted.


ah, thank goodness for those long lived wintering bees.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wishthecuttlefish said:


> Thanks for all the replies. There are some questions to answer so let me get to it.
> 1. Michael Palmer, I found one single capped cell on 30 frames. Not a single bee in the hive, except for about 3 or 4 dead ones on the bottom screen.


Can you pull the pupae out and see if she has dev or a flat, stunted abdomen?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wishthecuttlefish said:


> Thanks for all the replies. There are some questions to answer so let me get to it.
> 
> 6. Yes, SQKCRK, your delivery leaves much to be desired. I chalk it up to just another crusty old beekeeper on Beesource


Hey Mark, didn't your Mom teach you wash behind your ears?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Guys I am further South in VA and most of my carni based hives are broodless, even my observation hive is broodless.
Johno


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

wishthecuttlefish said:


> I chalk it up to just another crusty old beekeeper on Beesource who means well, but is too old to give a ****.


Ha, I don't think he is THAT old, well, not compared to me. But your comment did have me chuckling, it is the humour on this site that keeps me coming back.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Hey Mark, didn't your Mom teach you wash behind your ears?


Eyah


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

I don't see Mark's comments as overly gruff.
Sometimes, I think a little "tough love" is in order.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Put the honey in the freezer. Get samples and send them to Beltsville to find out what happened. Sounds like the queen failed due to the OA treatment(s). (just guessing)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Samples of what, Betty? You can't just send a chunk of comb to Beltsville, tell them your hive died and ask them "Why?".


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

Sorry for the late reply. I was busy extracting the honey. As I said, there were plenty of stores. The top medium super was 100% loaded, and the other two were about 25% filled. Enough honey to 2/3 fill a 5 gallon paint bucket. Beautiful in color, but completely tasteless as to be expected from sugar syrup.



squarepeg said:


> are you talking about seeing lots of bees on the topbars or coming and going from the entrance? how long ago was it that you went through the stack and observed brood?


Here is the timeline as best as I can remember:

1. October 4th, inspected hive. Observed eggs, brood, etc. Performed first Oxalic Acid treatment. 
2. October 11th, performed second Oxalic Acid Treatment. Lots of bees on top bars (3 medium hive)
3. October 31st, added 1 gallon of sugar syrup. Plenty of bees on top bars.
4. November 14th, removed sugar syrup because they weren't taking it anymore. Approximately 50% still in bottle. Bees observed on top bars, flying etc.
5. November 26th, bees all gone. No brood, not signs of robbing, no signs of pests. 

These are estimates, and I need to get back to keeping a log. 



squarepeg said:


> could it be that the queen was injured during your last deep inspection? if so, and not seeing queen cells could mean that there were no eggs or young larvae at the time for them to make one.


That is always a possibility. I have certainly done that before, and we had a cold snap in late October, November, so it could be that they could not raise a new queen.



squarepeg said:


> are there any other hives nearby that these bees could have drifted to and joined?


Probably, but no in my yard. I just started this one hive in the spring, after taking a 2 year break from beekeeping. 



charmd2 said:


> I find 12 weeks no queen before the hive is completely dead is a fairly good estimate. 16 if it was a booming hive.


Yes, that has been my experience as well, with laying workers also on occasion.



Michael Palmer said:


> Can you pull the pupae out and see if she has dev or a flat, stunted abdomen?


I will try to find it, but I extracted the honey yesterday before I read your post so it may have been destroyed.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

wishthecuttlefish said:


> October 4th, inspected hive. Observed eggs, brood, etc. Performed first Oxalic Acid treatment.


then there should have been some young bees in the hive. the preponderance of evidence suggests absconding but without an obvious motivating factor. not exactly ccd by definition but similar. a mystery wrapped in an enigma for sure. thanks again for sharing.

how did you mix up your syrup, and did you find much mite frass on the brood comb?


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> how did you mix up your syrup, and did you find much mite frass on the brood comb?


This was 2 to 1 sugar syrup, mixed well. It was not burnt or overheated, and nothing was added to it. Perfectly normal.

As for mite frass, nothing out of the ordinary. There were dead mites on the bottom tray of course, and probably more than normal which I took to be droppage from the 2nd treatment. But nothing crazy. I still have the tray, uncleaned. I will take a picture.

Something someone said earlier is beginning to gnaw at me. Someone mentioned "crawlers". I did observe all summer, almost from the time I installed the package, that there were a few bees crawling on the ground outside the hive, which was elevated on cinder blocks. They did not appear to be able to fly. I inspected these bees carefully for deformed wing virus, saw nothing, and so didn't think much of it. The hive was always very strong, even at the last inspection. Could it be that the bees had some other viral ailment of which I am unaware?


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

I'm wondering if tracheal mites might be the issue here. From another beesource posting. Notice last sentence.

"Tracheal mites live, breed and lay eggs in the tracheal system. The adults and eggs plug the tubes of the trachea which impairs oxygen exchange. They also spread secondary diseases and pathogens since they puncture the trachea in order to feed. Individual bees die due to the disruption to respiration, damage to the tracheae.

Infested bees will be seen leaving the colony and crawling on the grass just outside the hive. They will crawl up the blades of grass or the hive, fall back down and try again. The wings may be disjointed and the bees unable to fly. The abdomens may be swollen. In late stages of infestation, bees will abscond from the hive.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

K-wing goes hand in hand with tracheal mites as it does Nosema Apis. He hadn't mentioned seeing any K-wing but it makes me wonder.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

wishthecuttlefish said:


> It was a new package so it started out with no foretic mites in spring.


How do you figure no phoretic mites this spring?


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

jwcarlson said:


> How do you figure no phoretic mites this spring?


I misused this term. Sorry, I was referring to the fact that there would be no larval mites because it was a new package with no bee larvae.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>This was from a package started in spring.

How was your brood pattern the last time you saw it? Any pictures of the brood anytime last summer or fall?

Do you have any frames that have new comb with one brood cycle though it (yellow comb with a brown patch in the center) post pictures.


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

FlowerPlanter said:


> >This was from a package started in spring.
> 
> How was your brood pattern the last time you saw it? Any pictures of the brood anytime last summer or fall?
> 
> Do you have any frames that have new comb with one brood cycle though it (yellow comb with a brown patch in the center) post pictures.



The brood pattern last I checked looked fine, but that was summer time. My last deep inspection I just looked for eggs, found some, and moved on. I have dealt with laying workers before and didn't see any signs of that. All single eggs, and no excessive drone cells. I don't have any pictures, unfortunately.

However, I can say that there were a number of frames with comb as you describe it. New yellow comb with brown patch. What do you think that indicates?


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

wishthecuttlefish said:


> However, I can say that there were a number of frames with comb as you describe it. New yellow comb with brown patch. What do you think that indicates?


This indicates your bees drew out new wax and the queen laid in center of each frame. Something you should see in a new health hive. Post pictures of these frames and I may be able to see if there was problem at that time.


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## nadanture (Jun 25, 2016)

I have had the same issue as the original poster after vaporizing oxalic in November. One hive was super strong Carnys and the other weaker italians. I attribued it to the the treatment method, but don't really know. Seems like there is limited evidence of negative response from oxalic treatment.


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## cata_rebel (Jun 26, 2013)

I have the same problem this fall I lost 6 or 7 double deep hives in one location 
After I take the supers off late aug early sept I treat twice whit oxalic
Then weekend after weekend I find hive after hive empty (I leave 135 miles away from the bees)
First I was thinking they absconded but the last hive I find the queen and hand full of bees next to her I concluded they not abscond something kill them little by little 
Hives was exactly as you described full of honey no dead bees inside and empty frames 
I suspect varroa viruses Not sure even now I suspect CCD


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

nadanture said:


> after vaporizing oxalic in November.


Was this your only treatment?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

cata_rebel said:


> I treat twice whit oxalic


Was this your only treatment?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

We need a definition of what is a treatment. Is it one vaporization or is it the _series_ of three or more spaced individual applications.

Any single application is nearly useless when bees are brooding heavily and mites are in exponential growth. Token treatment only gives the beekeeper a feel good moment and sets the scene for total collapse later.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

HarryVanderpool said:


> In my 24 years as a beekeeper, I have seen absconding in one setting and one setting only:
> On Beesource!


Lol! Same here
Summertime queen replacement, failed attempt, failed hive


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

crofter said:


> We need a definition of what is a treatment.


Insufficient or poorly timed treatment using oxalic acid vaporization seems to be the rule of the day. It would appear that some do not understand the life cycle of the mite vs the life cycle of a bee colony.

I am not saying that was the case with the folks on this thread in particular but it looks to be a common problem.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I see a pattern of late treatments.... if you're just starting to treat in September.... it's getting late. For my experience, Oxalic hasn't been a good treatment for hives that are past threshold either.


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## cata_rebel (Jun 26, 2013)

beemandan said:


> Was this your only treatment?


Yes only treatment


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## cata_rebel (Jun 26, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> I see a pattern of late treatments.... if you're just starting to treat in September.... it's getting late. For my experience, Oxalic hasn't been a good treatment for hives that are past threshold either.


I like to treat early but this year I have to keep supers on by end of August the information treat twice 6-7 days apart. What's interesting I lost them all in 1 location and the other 2 location lost only 1 hive


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

HarryVanderpool said:


> In my 24 years as a beekeeper, I have seen absconding in one setting and one setting only:
> On Beesource!


Same for me, in many years of beekeeping with thousands of hives I never saw a hive abscond, by abscond I mean send out not a normal swarm, but a swarm of just about all the bees in order to abandon the hive and start over.
I read about it on Beesource, and assumed there must be different bees in the USA that would do it.

That's until further reading on Beesource convinced me to try TF beekeeping, bond method. Which lead to me having some heavily mite infested hives in very bad shape, but watching them go downhill and die as it was "part of the process". That's when for the first time I saw absconding, several of my suffering little hives did it, I even got a couple of the swarms, and as they were now out of the TF system I saved them by giving them some treatment and couple frames brood.

I think there must be some basic survival instinct in even EHB's that mostly lies dormant, but when they realise a hive is absolutely unliveable they are capable of a last ditch attempt at survival by moving house. Of course varroa mites are not natural to EHB so the bees do not understand what the problem is or that absconding will not save them from the mites. But they know something is badly wrong and that absconding survival behaviour sets in. My theory anyway.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

cata_rebel said:


> I like to treat early but this year I have to keep supers on by end of August the information treat twice 6-7 days apart. What's interesting I lost them all in 1 location and the other 2 location lost only 1 hive


I consider minimum of _three_ applications 6 to 7 days apart to be minimum. Actually I recommend 4 treatments 5-6 days apart and if mite counts are still high do more applications. I think treating twice, then pausing to let the mites re group is not good strategy.


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## Knobs (Sep 20, 2014)

Package bees often come loaded with varroa. If you don't treat the packagewhen you receive it then often the hive is exploding with mites by mid July and you need to treat then or at least in early August. Treating in October was probably too late by that time the viruses were already destroying your bees. I think virus due to varroa mites


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