# Increasing your hives/numbers



## WPG (Mar 28, 2010)

Sugar candy and syrup will help the adult bees to survive but they need pollen or pollen substitute to raise young.

They should be trying to raise some now.

Helping them build now makes all the difference.

Goodluck


----------



## green2btree (Sep 9, 2010)

I just got done reading "Increase Essentials" by Conner. Highly recommend it.
I am planning on putting on pollen patties as soon as they get to me. Syrup also. The faster they build up the more you will have to work with. As Iddee would say though, once you start you can't quit until pollen and nectar are available in your area. Make sure you have enough.

JC


----------



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Search the archives for the MDA Splitter box. I've been curious of his method could make that many splits, but if you're looking for an increase, it's aggressive.

In my own operation, every time I made a significant expansion, I spent the next year trying to scale the learning curve. I'm using a two-year cycle of expansion: expand one year, learn the hardships the next.

Grant
Jackson, MO


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Read your post and I feel for you!

It's normal to start out this hobby with high ideals of being "natural", not treating etc.

This attitude is encouraged by reading many people claiming to be treatment free. They usually don't mention they lose a lot of bees, and don't get much honey, if any.

Fact is, varroa mites are not a natural parasite of our bees. I don't feel bad about going beyond what the bees themselves can do to defeat them.

May I suggest two things. Get a varroa tolerant strain of bee from a breeder such as Russell or B Weaver. And secondly try treating, on a hive or two to compare. I've seen hives truly on deaths door come back once they've been treated. there's many opinions and some people won't like what I just said, but after 5 years of heartache I think you've given treatment free a fair shot.

Consider this. You'll read over and over on this forum people claiming to be treatment free, they would rather let their bees die than treat. Then, every spring they just buy new packages to replace them. It doesn't seem to register that the person who sells them the packages treats. So these treatment free people who buy packages don't treat, they just pay somebody else to treat.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Oldtimer said:


> This attitude is encouraged by reading many people claiming to be treatment free. They usually don't mention they lose a lot of bees, and don't get much honey, if any.


And you base this on what evidence? Go ahead and put some names to "they."


----------



## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

Put my name down and iv got more friends that i know that could have there names down. Ask 95% of comercial bekeepers to go without a mite treatment for the year See what they think.

BUT, there are some people that can get it to work Barry you seem to be one of them, and I know a few others. 



Barry said:


> And you base this on what evidence? Go ahead and put some names to "they."


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Nick -

I don't know about all your friends or any commercial that are on here writing about being treatment free. That is the context of Oldtimer's statement. I've never heard you say here that you were treatment free.

OT: "You'll read over and over on this forum people claiming to be treatment free"


----------



## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

you are correct to feed early with syrup and pollen sub for build up. In march is a better time to feed them. starting nucs above a double screen is great for early increase with early queens. with experence you will know how much brood can be taken away for a nuc, prevent swarming and still make honey. as far as treatment free I agree 100% with oldtimer. If it was that easy we would not have a mite problem.


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

It is that easy. I have been treatment free since I started keeping bees 4 years ago. I powder sugar dusted occasionally but not not a routine basis. About the time I joined this forum (little over a year ago) I decided that I would make a go at it. I have one hive from the fall of 2009 that has been on solid bottom boards and only had 25 mites from a sample of around 300 bees. That was the most infested hive. All my hives are on solid bottoms. The majority have under 10 mites per sample of 300-500 (was not very accurate on bee counts, but always more than 300). Some had 2, a bunch had 5. Remember this is on solid bottom boards. I use VSH, goldline, feral, mutt, hygienic Italian. I think if the majority of folks would try a few of the mentioned breeds they would be happy with the results. Folks do not want buy the $25 queens, they want the 15 or less Italians. I was working a observation hive at a booth and there was one of those Georgia Italians in it. Queen had a mite on her thorax! 
What really gets me is when I ask a simple mite level question to the person that has that beetle bottom board (read between the lines, he came out with it about 2 years ago, and the state he is from goes by " The Natural State") and he talks about dumping this that and the other thing on them. Then he gets all giddy about a new mite treatment coming out. 

Off my soap box

mike


----------



## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

The simplest and most basic method I could recommend and I have great results with this, is to pull a nuc off your hives.

1. build your colonies up, feed, feed, feed, during your build up period. feed a pollen substitute or supplement patty and a 1:1 syrup. Equalize your colonies too. Basically robbing from the rich and giving to the poor, example: a colony with 5 frames of brood and 7-8 frames of bees could spare a frame of hatching brood with adhering bees and a shake of bees to a hive the has 3 frames of brood and 4-5 frames of bees.

2. when the 2 chambers are full of bees with 12-14 frames of brood, make your nucs. a frame of honey, pollen, eggs, and capped brood, shake 2 extra frames of bees from larva frames into the nuc. Make sure you do not take the queen. It might be best to find her first and set her a side while doing this. give the parent colony back laying comb in top super. Make sure you do not split the brood frames up, keep them together in center of the top box and place the empties beside them for the bees to clean and the queen can start laying in them.

3. move the nucs to a new location, even if just temporarly. this is neccessary if you want to maintain your nuc strength. now, I would wait a day then introduce a cage queen if you've bought them or let them rear out there own queen though that is very insuffecient. or have cells ready to put in them if your willing to graft. A new caged mated queen will start benefiting your hive right away.

By doing this, you have taken away the urge of the parent hive to swarm yet it will still produce honey for you. The nucs will make it to a double broodnest hive in short time (if a mated queen is given) and if a late flow happens, it might just produce some honey for you too.

The other option is to boost your weaker hives and get them as big as possible then breake them down 4 ways, 4 - 4 frame nucs. kill the old queen since she wasn't that great to begin with and give mated queens. 2 hives can go to 8 hives.

Something else to consider is the requeening of your parent hives. I requeen annually but some can go bi-annually. a second year queen should most definatly be requeened. Sometimes, the saving grace of a hive is the young queen. bees overwinter and build up much faster with a young queen.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Barry said:


> Go ahead and put some names to "they."


A strange request from a moderator, but I'll give it to you, this time you have me Barry!

I don't answer and look like I'm wrong, or I do answer, cause personal offence to people who have never wronged me, and I make enemies. You got me!

While I certainly know some of these people, both on this forum and personally in my own country, I'm not going to put up a "name and shame" list of actual names. As I have certain opinions on some things there are some people who don't like me. Putting up a list of names as you suggest would be a great way to add to them.

You may have noticed I never personally embarrase anyone, except if they tried it on me first.

So - you got me this time - a question I can't answer.

But As some other posters have intimated, I am correct, and I think Barry deep down, even you know that.


What I will say though is that if NewBee2007 goes ahead takes my advise to get good bees, and (for comparison as I said) treats some hives properly , I'm pretty sure his fortune will be turned around. I've seen this with beeks I've helped in my own area they went from never having harvested any honey, to now producing respectable crops.


----------



## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

This is directed to Newbee2007, there are a lot of difference in feeding sugar syrup and pouring chemicals on hives at the first sign of a pest. I don't pour chemicals on my hives but I do feed them to keep them from starving. In some peoples eyes I treat, but syrup in my opinion is not treating. For the ones that don't believe that I don't treat, we can inspect my hives at any time that is convenient for you. I will lend you a veil and gloves as yours might have chemical residue on them.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Oldtimer said:


> I don't answer and look like I'm wrong, or I do answer, cause personal offence to people who have never wronged me, and I make enemies.


So instead, you'll make a sweeping generalization (that probably has some truth to it) labeling everyone in a negative way.



> So - you got me this time - a question I can't answer.


Don't blame me for what you choose to or not to say. I'm simply calling the bluff that I see.



> What I will say though is that if NewBee2007 goes ahead takes my advise to get good bees, and (for comparison as I said) treats some hives properly , I'm pretty sure his fortune will be turned around. I've seen this with beeks I've helped in my own area they went from never having harvested any honey, to now producing respectable crops.


Depends on a lot of things. If he wants to go the treatment route, that's one option. Not one I would suggest as I've been down that road and know where it leads. Big honey crop isn't nirvana to me. Healthy bees that aren't doped up, clean hive products, this is what floats my boat. I'm not guided by "so many pounds of honey." I wouldn't begin to know all his particulars and what things he could do differently to avoid treatments. But certainly dumping in the treatments is the easy thing to do getting a quick response.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well he's been going for 5 years. Reading between the lines of his post, I think he is already doing most things right, is asking the right questions, and has thought a lot of things through.

The other posters who have answered him have given good answers. To me though, what seems to be missing from the mix is dealing effectively with varroa. 

That's why I suggested what I did. If he can try it I'd like him to come back to this thread in the future and post up results. The proof is in the pudding.

And talking about sweeping generalisations, one I hear a lot is "pouring in the chemicals". Who are all these people who "pour in the chemicals"? I've never seen it done.

Where are these bees that are all doped up?

Just thought I'd "call your bluff".


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Oldtimer said:


> That's why I suggested what I did. If he can try it I'd like him to come back to this thread in the future and post up results. The proof is in the pudding.


I don't think anyone would doubt that putting in miticides will kill varroa and lessen the negative effects to their bees. At least in the short term. He'll come back with glowing results I'm sure.



> And talking about sweeping generalisations, one I hear a lot is "pouring in the chemicals". Who are all these people who "pour in the chemicals"? I've never seen it done.


Sorry, placing in the chemicals. Although, I hear some of the chemicals used does come as a liquid. I'm sure you've heard of beekeepers soaking blue shop towels in a liquid chemical?


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

There are a lot of things I've heard.


----------



## NewBee2007 (May 6, 2007)

HI! Thanks for all of your suggestions! 

I was sort of just looking for ideas and suggestions on the best methods you all have used to expand your hive numbers!  

(If I ever do decide to treat for mites it will be with the new formic strips that I think I heard are going to be sold this year.) I honestly have not seen an urgent need to treat them yet though. What I think I need to do is to give them pollen and supplemental feedings. Like I mentioned, we are in an area that is mountainous and mostly wooded... and I think that there is just a ton of natural competition that they have to deal with here that is overwhelming for them. Birds, dragon flies, bats, wasps, and bumbles, orchard/mason bees and others are all over the place here .... I've watched all sorts of birds sit in the shrubs and peck off my bees coming back to the hives, I've seen 'swarms' of dragon flies circle for hours and peck off my bees... I've had yellow jackets peck off my bees at the hive entrance... and then the competition for the pollen and the nectar from the other bees and pollenators.... I am not against people do what they feel is necesarry to keep their bees alive but I am still not ready to jump on board to the in-hive mite treatments quite yet, and if I do it would probably be with the softer treatments, the new formic strips or essential oil (ApilifeVar) treatments... but so far I haven't felt the dire need for it. They seem strong enough, but our growing season is short up here... I do think that my problem is more of a nutritional issue and that letting them fend for themselves isn't working so well.... so maybe switching it up and giving them feed and pollen early and later in the season, might be something to try next. The last few years have not been the greatest weather wise... 2 really wet years and then last year apparently we had a dearth in the summer and I lost a nuc that I bought late in the season, and then split one hive off in the summer into a nuc but lost that one too over the winter when it got blown over during a bad wind storm. The year before I had tried to split a few of my hives, but the weather was awful ....I lost some to starvation and had to feed dry sugar in the winter to the others... I didn't want "welfare bees" but feeding is probably a better idea than letting them dwindle slowly and having them starve and then having to buy new bees... the sugar or fondant is cheaper than multiple packages... 

I also agree that if you have a good hygenic bee stock you may not have to treat your bees much if at all. But I can see that if people's livelihoods depend on it as their sole income, I can understand why they may treat them. Plus if they are exposed to other hives in like the orchards, it is sort of similar to being in an institutional setting... we see every year how the flu spreads in such places... so I can see that happening in the orchards and presume that those that don't want to lose their bees are probably treating prophylactically for AFB and also treating for mites. Nobody can blame them. 

So, I'll continue on yet another year and hope for some honey... the other isssue is my lack of honey comb, as I have been giving to the new hives and nucs... I should try to find some beeks that might have some extra supers of honey comb and let the bees fill it up and then extract and place them back on... it would be more work but if it would give me some extractable honey that would be great! Anyhow, I will keep you all posted as to how this season turns out! 

Thanks again everyone!!!!


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Kingfisher Apiaries - Have you seen swarms from your hives establish feral hives that have persisted for more than 2 years? That would sure be good news.


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

David LaFerney said:


> Kingfisher Apiaries - Have you seen swarms from your hives establish feral hives that have persisted for more than 2 years? That would sure be good news.


No, Here there are zillions of trees, and quite a few swamps with holey hardwoods. I try to keep my hives like nature. Actually more like hives were kept 40 years ago. Hope that answers you question. 

mike


----------



## standman (Mar 14, 2008)

I think you are heading in the right direction: feed and monitor/reduce mite load. My personal experience has been that feeding to stimulate brood rearing about a month before your bloom will really pay off by increasing honey harvest. 
If I were you, I would also consider harvesting about half of whatever each hive makes, and then feeding sugar syrup in the fall to replenish stores if necessary. I know the honey is best for them, but it will allow you to get some honey for yourself and should not hurt the bees too much. 
You could always consider combining a couple of weak hives into your stronger hives for overwintering, and extract the honey from the weak hives. Then if the hives do well, split them in the early spring. The more populous hives should overwinter better, and you end up with the same number of hives overall.
Just a thought. Whatever you decide to do, hang in there. You obviously are doing something right, or you would not have any bees at all! :applause:


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Kingfisher - Sure, just because you haven't seen persistent feral hives doesn't mean they aren't there. Still, that would be good.


----------



## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

Hey Newbee,

It sounds to me like you need a bee that is thrifty and conservative. Carniolans overwinter well in smaller clusters than italians do and for the most part, towards the end of the season the usually think of themselves, storing away their honey in their own food chamber.

One nice thing about the carniolan bee is that at the first availability of pollen, wether natural or if you feed them supplement, these bees grow fast. I've got some queens coming from arataki honey http://www.aratakihoneyrotorua.co.nz/ that are suppose to bee as resistant to the mites as russian are, but we shall see. my friend has also been telling me about the weaver queens, maybe if someone here has worked with them, they can let us know what their experience with them has been.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Arataki told you that?

One of the best bees I've ever had (I'm breeding off them now) came from Arataki but they are not fully mite resistant.

Arataki also treat their own bees.


----------



## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Arataki told you that?
> 
> One of the best bees I've ever had (I'm breeding off them now) came from Arataki but they are not fully mite resistant.
> 
> Arataki also treat their own bees.


This is a copy and past from their website:

The genetic material we use was imported into NZ by David Yanke and comes from three Queen Breeding institutes in Europe, namely Lunz, Austria; Kirchhain, Germany; and Mayen, Germany. These Institutes concentrate on varroa tolerance. The Institute in Kirchhain Germany, has been trialling their Carnica against Primorsky Queens brought straight from Baton Rouge and representing all the lines they maintain there. Their data shows that their best Carnica is as tolerant as the average Primorsky, and light years ahead when it comes to temperament, productivity, and swarming. (i.e. the Primorsky swarm much more readily then do Carnica.)

Yanke’s evaluations have shown that the Carnica hybrids are much more varroa tolerant than his yellow bees. Feedback from other commercial beekeepers and my own experience backs this up.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes that same statement has been up for several years, their best Carnica is as tolerant as the average Primorsky, that much is probably true.

Yanke is breeding for hygeine using the dry ice testing method, among other things. Not sure he's all the way there yet. 

Did you import directly from Arataki yourself Chillardbee?


----------



## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

NewBee2007 said:


> What is the most efficient ways that you all have found to get increases from overwintered hives that came through the winter but are not necesarrily strong?(...


Oldtimer had some great advice for with regards to varroa. Throw varroa into the mix and the diseases and viruses (especially viruses) that are usually not a problem for the bees become deadly, especially in a northern winter. IMHO you should not be attempting to increase much until you have solved your wintering problem.

If you look at the history of varroa in NA or other countries, one immediately sees that the genetics for varroa resistance in a given bee population is not very common. Thousands of hives are needed to find genetic resistant hives. Purchasing bees that already have some resistance and can survive a north winter is a good place to start.

Treatment for varroa if your numbers are high will most likely greatly improve your wintering success and then allow you to increase is you so desire. At this stage, it appears as though treatment is not working to well for you. 

First and foremost, emulate what other beekeepers around you or in similar climates are doing to successfully winter bees. Use that as a starting point. Once you succeed in improving wintering success, begin to readjust your practices match your philosophies.

Good luck.


----------



## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Did you import directly from Arataki yourself Chillardbee?


No. I emailed him for the broker he has here in canada who is manatoba. the package bees and queens are being brought in to Vancouver. I've talked to both parties about the quality of these bees and of course i'll make my own assessment when they arrive and i've tried them out. I love carniolans and they are hard to find apart from the hybrids and i was looking for some old world genetics too.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There is no point splitting weak hives, you'll just get more weak hives. Split the strong ones. Or combine the weak ones and requeen and when they get strong split them. Bees need to have "critical mass"-- that point of bees and resources where they can meet all their needs and produce a surplus, before they can really take off. Hives ta critical mass can produce more of everything. If you have several hives at critical mass in the main build up before the flow, you can steal a frame of brood and a frame of honey a week from them and they will hardly notice. If you have several hives these can be used to make one or more splits (I'd put five frames of brood and five frames of stores in each of the splits) every week.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Micheal Bush is very correct. Dont split them before their time. Old timer, Arataki did contact me. I know who to order them through. I will not mention the name of the contact. But it is the same company that I got the Aussie queens from. I figure I had better get a couple of hundred before somebody once again has another quark and shuts down the import market for them. As stated earlier the genetics is about two years out of Europe. Arataki is a top notched company. These boys really know how to keep bees. My mother and her husband visited them about twenty years ago. You can eat off their honey house floors. We could all learn alot from the Kiwis. TK


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Pleased it's working out Ted.


----------

