# Nosema ceranae



## Ian

Been talking to a few fellow on Nosema ceranae lately. They were mentioning Nosema ceranae has been identified in samples in these parts that were taken 15 years ago. They were just not able to tell the difference at the time. 
The visual symtems of Nosema ceranae are much different than our commoly known Nosema A. But the effect Nosema C has on the hive is much more devistating and very hard for the bees to rid off. Fumigillin works well to suppress with both types.

Does anyone know why Nosema C. is harder to rid from the bees system than Nosema A. ?

Thanks


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## GaSteve

Kim Flottum talked about the new Nosema briefly during his talk at the GA Beekeepers Assn. meeting. He said unlike the old nosema, this one gets started in the spring and may cause hives to crash by late summer. There are no obvious symptoms like there are for the old nosema. Bees also die much quicker from the new nosema.


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## Dave W

NOSEMA CERANAE is a close relative of Nosema apis, the pathogen that has been the cause of nosema disease world-wide for many years [ABJ, 3/07, p181]. In 1995, Dr. Ingemar Fries of the Swedish Agricultural University visited China, where he described a new microsporidian, Nosema ceranae, in indigenous Apis cerana. The ultrastructure and genetics were found to differ from Nosema apis. In the Spring of 2005, Vietnamese researchers found both nosema types infesting western honey bees. A report in Sept-Oct 2005 from Spain indicated the parasite had “moved out of Asia” and was being linked to massive colony losses. Dr. Robert Paxton of Northern Ireland has determined that Nosema ceranae probably “jumped host” from A. cerana to A. mellifera in the last 10 years and has spread “remarkably rapidly”. The organism has been found in North and South America, the Caribbean, across Europe and Asia, but not on the Islands of Ireland and New Zealand. Definitive samples are sill lacking from Africa, Australia and Great Britain [BC, 2/07, p18]. Research on a small number of samples by Kentucky State University and other labs has shown N. ceranae to be in Florida [ABJ, 3/07, p181].
	Anecdote - Tests on saved samples revealed that at least "nearly all" if not "all" the Nosema we have been seeing here in the USA for years - almost a decade - is Nosema ceranae, rather than Nosema apis. It appears that all the Nosema in the USA has been Nosema ceranae for some time, and the cases of Nosema we have seen have not been the violent and fatal cases one might associate with Nosema ceranae, but instead, much less virulent - - a verbal comment made at the USDA "CCD" Meeting [Jim Fischer, BeeSource, 5/17/07].
	A USDA survey of N. ceranae prevalence in the U.S. found the parasite to be widespread and to be in samples collected as far back as 2000 [BC, 7/07, p14].
	N. ceranae has been in the U.S. for at least 10 years [ABJ, 11/07, p931.
	N. ceranae can be found as far back as 1995 in the U.S. [ABJ, 12/07, p1019, p1055].

Both types of Nosema, can last indefinitely on hive tools, gloves, and hive equipment [ABJ, 3/07, p181]. Both forms can exist in an individual bee, and in quite high numbers. Control at the present time is unknown, although Spanish scientists appear to have used Fumidil-B w/ some success. Beekeepers can best prepare for Nosema ceranae by reviewing what they know about Nosema apis, but symptoms of "new" nosema appear to different than from traditional Nosema apis [BC, 2/07, p18, 19].
	Unlike N. apis, N. ceranae is present in colonies throughout the entire year [ABJ, 3/07, p181].
	Nosema ceranae appears to peak in summer [ABJ, 12/07, p1055].
	The haplotype of N. ceranae found in Minnesota and Canada is different than that found in Spain, Germany, or China, and may differ in virulence (Williams 2007) [ABJ, 12/07, p1056].
	Dysentery or crawling bee behavior usually related to N. apis, has not been reported w/ Nosema ceranae [ABJ, 12/07, p1057]. 
	N. ceranae is known to effect progressive population disappearance [ABJ, 3/07, p181].
	European's treat N. ceranae 3-4 times per year [ABJ, 3/07, p181, ABJ 10/07, p846].
	Bleach is NOT a control (for Nosema) [Jerry Hayes, ABJ, 10/07, p846].
	Bleach appears to hold promise as a Nosema treatment [Randy Oliver, ABJ, 12/07, p1051.

Nosema ceranae cannot be distinguished from N. apis by a simple microscopic observation of the spores. Only way to distinguish between the two species is to perform genetic screening by molecular biology methods [ABJ, 3/07, p181].
	It is difficult to visually distinguish Nosema apis spores from those of Nosema ceranae (genetic methods are most reliable for accurate species identification) [BC, 12/07, p21].
	Anecdote - This truly is a different protozoan. An experienced eye can see differences [Jim Fischer, BeeSource, 5/17/07].

Higes (2007) found that infected foragers contaminate the pollen they collect w/ spores, apparently when they moisten the pellets w/ nectar. This contaminated pollen is then delivered to the brood nest, where it is consumed by young bees. This important discovery could explain why N. ceranae can be so prevalent during summer [ABJ, 12/07, p1057]. 

SYMPTOMS 
	Rapid population declines when infected workers die prematurely [BC, 1/08, p15].


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## Ian

>>Higes (2007) found that infected foragers contaminate the pollen they collect w/ spores, apparently when they moisten the pellets w/ nectar. This contaminated pollen is then delivered to the brood nest, where it is consumed by young bees. This important discovery could explain why N. ceranae can be so prevalent during summer [ABJ, 12/07, p1057]. 


This doesent happen with Nosema apis?


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## Michael Bush

>Does anyone know why Nosema C. is harder to rid from the bees system than Nosema A. ?

According to a recent conversation with Dr. Marion Ellis, Nosema c is more common in the summer when people are NOT feeding fumidil. The control that is used for Nosema is at the appropriate time for Nosema a but not Nosema c, because you have supers on. Since supers are on at that time, fumidil will not (nor anything else you feed for that matter) be appropriate to use for Nosema c.

I believe this is one of the primary problems.


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## Gene Weitzel

I read somewhere that the main difference between Nosema C. and Nosema A. is that Nosema C. can penitrate deeper into the cells of the bee's gut so it does more damage to their gi tract. I will try to dig out the research I found regarding this.


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## Ian

>>Nosema c is more common in the summer when people are NOT feeding fumidil

If you have hives that are mildly infected by nosema apis in the spring, they will releave themselves of it during good summer flight weather. That does not happpen with nosema c. 
I do understand your point. The fellows here are suggesting that perhaps a spring application along with the fall treatment might start to be the norm, around here anyway. The only cautions with a spring treatment is to get it into the bees and used up 100% by the time the bees start storing nectar. Honey contamination is a big concern. 


>>Nosema C. can penitrate deeper into the cells of the bee's gut so it does more damage to their gi tract

That makes sence.
I would be interested in reviewing the info, if you can scrape it up.

Thanks all!


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## CSbees

Feeding Fumigilin earlier in the season will protect the bees from the nosema cerranae even if it dosen't come about until the summer.


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## sjbees

> ? It is difficult to visually distinguish Nosema apis spores
> from those of Nosema ceranae (genetic methods are most reliable
> for accurate species identification) [BC, 12/07, p21].

Progress is being made on that front.

In the January ABJ Randy Oliver described how to distinguish one from the other under a 400X microscope and advice on which microscope to buy. They do not have to be lab-quality scopes, so are not expensive.

The clue is that under a microscope nosema spores appear to "jiggle". Randy holds seminars in NorCal occasionally and hopefully he will include lessons for microscope neophytes.


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## Ian

>>Feeding Fumigilin earlier in the season will protect the bees from the nosema cerranae even if it dosen't come about until the summer.

So if I treat my hives with Fumigillin in April, or mid May lets say, about how long does the treatment supress the spore development within the bee in the hive?


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## Moeuk

*N. ceranae in UK*

The following was published by the National Bee Unit.

From the BBKA News letter No. 169 Feb. 2008

NOSEMA CERANAE FOUND.

In November 2007, National Bee Unit (NBU) announced that three hundred and nine samples have now been tested for the presence of Nosema apis and Nosema ceranae using real-time Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR).

All positive results were confirmed using published assays for the detection of these pathogens. Positive results have therefore been confirmed using two methods both based on the detection of species specific DNA. Of these samples 31 samples tested positive for N. apis (10%), 14 for N. ceranae (4.5%) and 3 (1%) tested positive for both Nosema species. 
N. ceranae positives were confirmed across seven counties of England (Cornwall, Essex, Lincolnshire, Hertfordshire, Hereford, and Worcestershire, Greater London, North Yorkshire) and three in Wales, (Glamorgan, Powys, Dyfed).

N. ceranae infections have been reported not to show typical signs of Nosema infection. Therefore we recommend beekeepers check their colonies for adult bee diseases. Treatment using the usual veterinary medicine is effective against Nosema infections in honey bee colonies. It is also important to treat effectively against, Varroa mite infestations.

We will carry out a more detailed survey to estimate the prevalence and impact of both Nosema species across England and Wales. Samples of DNA extracts from the European foul brood study, imported bees and historical samples stored in the NUB labs will be rescreened.

National Bee Unit, CSL

What treatment do you guys use and to what effect does it have?

Moe


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## Ian

We use a Funigillin treatment to treat for Nosema.

I was talking to a fellow from France who said it is not allowed to be used in France. Also a fellow from Germany said the same. Perhaps different rules and regs in Europe than are in place here in North America,

Welcome to the board Moe! Will be interesting to hear your input on our conversations,


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## Joel

"Feeding Fumigilin earlier in the season will protect the bees from the nosema cerranae even if it dosen't come about until the summer."

I'm confused about this. Is Nosema C caused by protozoan? It would seem the bees would be protected as long as the Fumagillen stayed viable in the hive/honey and once it was gone the bees would become susceptable to the vector again or is there some type of long term effect beyond the life of the treatment? Does the initial treatment providing a healthier bee allow them natural resistance or does the fumagillen stay viable for long periods of time?

We've seen Nosema before but not done preventative treatements although this year we plan to, I haven't spent enough time learning about this.

Moe, the few cases we've seen we treated with Fumadil-B (which is harder to mix with water than Fumagillen) and once fed literally seems to clear up the same day or the next morning. I think I remember that it would clear up on it's own if they were coming into a good flow but likely lost some production.


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## Moeuk

Hi Ian & Joel,

Thanks for the input. 
At the present time we are allowed to use Fumadil-B to treat for N. apis. As soon as the supplies run out of F B then there will be no replacement treatment. We are governed by the Veterinary Medicines Directorate which has classed our bees as 'Food producing animals' and therefore come under a huge umbrella of restrictions for treatment. The VDM are quite inflexable about what we can and can not use for various diseases.

We are allowed to use Oxalic acid as a _hive cleanser_ in other words to treat for Varroa. 
As the old addage goes "what the eyes don't see the eyes can't tell". 

I'll keep you guys informed as soon as I have any mre news.

Roll on spring.
Moe


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## Ian

>>At the present time we are allowed to use Fumadil-B to treat for N. apis. As soon as the supplies run out of F B then there will be no replacement treatment. We are governed by the Veterinary Medicines Directorate which has classed our bees as 'Food producing animals' and therefore come under a huge umbrella of restrictions for treatment.

If you are not allowed to use Fumadil-B in the furture, why has it been prescribed up til now, and allowed to be used up til now? What has changed?


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## Gene Weitzel

Moe said:


> Hi Ian & Joel,
> 
> Thanks for the input.
> At the present time we are allowed to use Fumadil-B to treat for N. apis. As soon as the supplies run out of F B then there will be no replacement treatment. We are governed by the Veterinary Medicines Directorate which has classed our bees as 'Food producing animals' and therefore come under a huge umbrella of restrictions for treatment. The VDM are quite inflexable about what we can and can not use for various diseases.
> 
> We are allowed to use Oxalic acid as a _hive cleanser_ in other words to treat for Varroa.
> As the old addage goes "what the eyes don't see the eyes can't tell".
> 
> I'll keep you guys informed as soon as I have any mre news.
> 
> Roll on spring.
> Moe


Moe,

Here is a link to a post I posted in another thread about a study on the effectiveness of Thymol in syrup for treatment of Nosema:
(you will need to scroll down a bit to find my post)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215670&page=3

The study seems to show that Thymol may be a more effective treatment for Nosema. So you might check with your VDM to see if that is an option. Dave Cushman talks about it on his site and even gives directions for mixing up a stock solution for treating the syrup.


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## Michael Bush

>I was talking to a fellow from France who said it is not allowed to be used in France. Also a fellow from Germany said the same. Perhaps different rules and regs in Europe than are in place here in North America

Fumadil is illegal in the European Union because it causes birth defects. Specifically it causes a malformation of the blood vessels in embryos.


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## LSPender

*Back to Nosema*

Over the past 4 weeks I have done a massive amount of research on this subject, and as typical this happens when one is having problems. I have been forced to figure out how to operate a beekeeping business in the current environment that I operate, I say the first because we all have different experiances and experiance. I would like to remind all of us that the rules do change and we need to adapt if we are to continue. If we do things because thats the way we've always done for the past 3 generations, I wish you good luck in chosing a new profession. If you think that is a joke, maybe you should visit the man in AZ that has lost 80% to 90% of all 8,000 hives in the past 2 to 3 months ( yes MONTHS).

My Thoughts and observations from the perspective that I have have big losses of bees in one group of bees ( 80 out of 600 are good), and the other group is doing well ( 800). I also have delt with this 4 years ago and since I did not know now what I wish I had knew then, It has cost a lot of frustration and $.

Here is what I know and do not know.

1. Nosema C. is BAD, an infected bee will die in 8 to 10 days, during this time they also lose the ability to excret good brood food. Hence this explains why a hive dies off so fast, the adults are dying and not able to feed the brood.

2. Lack of ability to feed the brood explaind why when you look in a hive with a small cluster of bees ( less that 1 frame) and 3 frames of brood ( all stages) that looks like AFB, but no smell or ropy larve. Next you test for EFB, results come back negative.

3. Next you observe that the dead hive which has 3 or 4 frame of dead brood, honey and pollen in the combs is still there. ie the bees will NOT rob it out. This leads me to ask, what do the bees know about the dead hive that we can't see.

4. Nosema C. is fungas, please search on Wikapedia, nosena C. read about the Micro Sporidad, follow all links on that page to KNOW THE ENEMY.

5. Nosema C. is HIGHLY contagus. How I know this is that I made the mistake of moving a truck load of dead equipment from the bad group of hives next to one good yard 64 hives. They are now sick and small. Note: that when the dead hive is left on the pallet in the original location it takes months until the bees will rob it, I believe the sporse die off. 

6. Now you asking the question, if he stated that the bees won't rob the dead hives out how do they get infected, good ?. It's winter time not much happening, with all the equipment staked up open and the bees need something to do like collect propollus from the open boxes. So the bees visit the boxes for something to do when there is nothing else.

7. You open all 4 hives on a pallet which you know when last feed and worked the bees and brood where closer to the center of the pallet and now all 4 hive are on the 2 outside frames. The bees moved there whole nest in the box, left the brood and started new on the 2 outside frames, what are the bees seeing that we can't?

8. I do not know what triggers an outbreak, if this could be learned it will help. I have only had these losses in the winter, Nov. to Jan. here in CA

9. Nosema C. can sit inactive in equipment for 3 to 4 years. refer back to # 8 still do not know what triggers it.

10. As of now there is no method to determine if nosema C. is in the equipment. The only thing that can be done is to test the bees for sporse in the gut.

This leads me to a side point, with all this observation and theroy I do not have prof that nosema c. is the enemy, but I am operating with that assumption. Note: that when LABS test for anything they need a target, ie nosema, afb, virus. They can not look for the unknown. Which all of this may bee caused by some unknown that we can't see, but without any further info now I will operate under the opinion the Nosema C. is the enemy.

11. What I am doing.
All equipment will be tented an gased with Methal Bromid, or equivalent gas that kills molds and funguses. This came to and visiting with a fellow beekeeper in Camarillo who in the past did pest controll. What this will do is give me a starting point that a variable is controlled, I will know the equipment is clean. The challenge is all boxes that have bees, which I think I have a method to do. After pollination I will put all hives in an isolated yard, take the bees out like packages treat with fumigil-B then insert into clean boxes with new queen 3 to 4 days latter. I will they put all brood frames back in hive in the yard when all brood hateches make another package until all bees are out ans treated. They all boxes at that yard will be tented right their and gased, this will take some time but it has to be done.

Please note: ALL equipment means ALL, brood bx, honey boxes, pallets, lids, excluders, feeders, etc. ALL, ALL

I stress all because I believe we have been fighting this for the the past 7 years and now know the enemy. ( I could go into the exact history of the past 7 years whith equipment of mine and my fathers, but that is a big book, short answer, bees died off in 2000, honey boxes were not used for 2 years, after use the next batch of hives died off, highly contagious.

12. Other treatments, to control Nosema C. ( most are based on old info from nosema A. and we assume that they react the same, I hope this is true, but time will tell.

Fumidil-B in syrup to mix on bottle and showered over bees in hive, I have found that the bees are reluctant to go to internal feeder to get fumidil-B , like most childred the do not klike the taste. Shower a few times a week apart to help stop any infection. 2 major promlems with this costs $$$ a lot and we do not have prof that Fum-B works on C. as A.

Acetic Acid, 100% glasier, mix in with every drop of feed the hive gets all the time, I am starting this( mix is 90 lbs about 12 1/2 gal to 1 tanker load of syrup ( 45,000 lbs) 

Reading some old bee boxes from the 60's acetic acid is talked about as a fumigant for nosema, fumigat with 80% acetic acid for 5 days. stack boxes 5 high, put empty box on top, set container of acid put lid on. fumes are heavier than air. after uses air out for a week, only problem is that acetic is corosive to metal, wire frames should only be treated 5 times in thier life.

Copper Glutinate, I have been adding this to syrup for the past 3 years ( these are the good bees) originally it was for mites per some research from europe. But I have learned that copper is a fungiside and I now believe that the results in the research tests where positive for the mites because they assumed the problem they had were mites.

Note: I believe we all have been fighting a battle with mites and using the mites as an expaination for losses because it is something we can see, the dead outs the the bees do not rob out look ok to us, but the bees see things we don't. With that as you review your own situation, KEEP AN OPEN MIND to the things we do not know, study and observe to gain knowledge and share good info with other beeks so working together we can and will win this fight. 

Larry Pender, Camarillo CA


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## Keith Jarrett

Now that, was a great POST, Larry


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## Ian

>>Note: I believe we all have been fighting a battle with mites and using the mites as an expaination for losses because it is something we can see, the dead outs the the bees do not rob out look ok to us, but the bees see things we don't. With that as you review your own situation


Good comment Larry!

Thanks for the information!

>>2 major promlems with this costs $$$ a lot and we do not have prof that Fum-B works on C. as A.

The fellows here claim Fumigillin works against C just as it helps with A. There was no question about it according to them. 
If there is any doubt, why or how would Fumigillin not work against C like it does with A?

Why is it so hard for the bees to rid of C, as they can with A? I understand C works much quicker, but even so, a mildly infected hive with C cant rid of it as the bees with A, in some cases completely rid of it with favourable weather.


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## CSbees

First, I would not treat during a honey flow which you will be harvesting from. I know that the climate is different up there, but I would feed the 1:1 sugar syrup with 1 tsp. at the end of March. I feed at the end of February. The treatment should protect your bees unti October when I feed again at the end of the month.


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## LSPender

*Why so hard*

Ian, Might ask the question another way, Why does it keep showing up?. As of now I believe Fum-B only treats the symtems in the bees gut, if the bee did get rid of the nosemsa it would not show up again.

This would be similar to AFB, we have never got rid of it , only control.

From my research, the nosema C. is every where, are we picking it up if we set a lide in the dirt, or super on the ground? I don't know, but I will be considering some dif. methods of operation in the future.

Nosema A. vs. Nosema C. ( Should bee a movie title, like Godzilla vs the mite.) 

I do not know if they react the same to fum-B, in different areas of north america we could be dealing with both or one or the other, don't know. According to Bart Smith, they just assume its nosema C. now. Takes a dna test to see difference.

I know many beeks that treated with fum-b and are seeing the problems, they another queen breeder that over the past 4 years has treated every 90 days and uses no mite treatments and the bees are good. So my short take is that I do not know, a question for the beeks out of AZ who did loose most of his hives would be if he used fum-B.

Also note taht I do not know what triggers an out break, the hive grow in the spring, makes honey in the summer look great in Oct going into winter then it hits no bees in Jan., WHY.

Well that is enogh depressing thought for now, off for a run to clear the mind, then back to moving hive to almond pollination monday.

Make it a great day.

Larry Pender


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## MichaelW

Larry Pender, thanks for the update from the front lines. I sincerely appreciate it!

Question, Is irradiation out of the question? I'm wondering what one would have to do to get access to that kind of equipment from researches of CCD. It could be a much better alternative than gassing for obvious reasons.


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## Ian

>>First, I would not treat during a honey flow which you will be harvesting from.

That goes without saying,


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## Ian

>>Nosema A. vs. Nosema C.

They are telling me Nosema C outcompeteing Nosema A, just in an act of natural preasures ect. Nosema C has an advantage over Nosema A, not only being able to out compete Nosema A, but also having the ability to hold on and maintain populations with in the bees system, an act that Nosema A has not been able to do.
The real problem with C is that it is not as visually diagnosable as A, so there isnt a action reaction with beekeepers towards treatments. I bet alot of hive crashes lately may be due to this disease rather than the mite themselves.

But how is it Nosema C holds the ability to maintain its populations through out summer, I am really interested in. In what ways is C able to out compete A? What advantages does it have over A? Any links to this type of information would be much appreciated.

Thanks


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## LSPender

*info*

Michael W, Irradiation is costly of anything more than a few boxes. The company Sterigenics has faciliyties around the county, but they want all boxes put in plastic bag to keep thier system clean of bee stuff. It would cost $ 6.00 per deep box plus transportation and logistics to do, also the machine does not take pallets of equipment has to be loaded into bin that holds about 6 9 5/8 boxes each trip thru. This cost translate toa total of about $30,000

Ian,
I believe Nosema C. stays in the equipment because it is a fungus (micro sporidad) and lives just like molds do for long periods of time, then when conditions are right it takes off.

As I think thru this process, it occures to me that pollen patties do the same thing when they have a high moisture content. During the summer the hive can ventalate and eveporate water. During fall & winter, rain storms and all, moisture levels rise inside the hive. If pollen patties have high moisture and lots if rain mold starts growing , Maybe this is the same with the fungus Nosema C.?

Larry


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## dthompson

*ccd = !nosema*

Hi Larry

I too have ccd (well my bees), almost 2yrs
I have been aware since April/07 
I am 98% sure it is NOT caused by nosema,
but nosema can be a problem for sure
I have several posts on beel documenting my observations
(search on from: dthompson, year:2007)
The following may be helpful


some thoughts, no observations 

I hope The almond guys know that full formic
is a semi effective treatment for ccd (X)
The hive will still be infected, but will not crash
You'll probably end up putting 3 pads/year
Welcome to the 21st century
Effect is noticeable day 10, increased morale etc
DON'T put on straight off truck, they would kill Q
At least 2d to settle
They may kill a few Q still, temp dependant mostly

Remember X is fairly infectious, anything within 1/2 flight is at risk
Luckily their flight efficiency is impaired too, many die on the ground

The big problem with X is its long life
I suspect that is a constant source of reinfection in the hive
Is it carried on your hands, clothes?


Ah Ken, you haven't been following my thread
Read it all, you see I got about 20-25% ccd covered
More treatments are needed, 2 is not enough
Last year I was a bit slow off the mark, a few
tests remain to try. But I have to patiently wait 3 months
And to correct record I am retesting S, it may
have long term effect
If you use any of my ideas feel free to publish,
that's the price

dave


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## Ian

>>I believe Nosema C. stays in the equipment

As does Nosema A. The population of Nosema A spores within the hives bee system will decrease as the bees rid of the spore through gut cell shedding. The population of Nosema C within the hives bee system doesnt decrease. It doesnt shed as does Nosema Apis, why?

Your right, Ultimately new equipment is one of the only sure fire methods of control. Thats hard to do, we just cant economically replace all of the brood comb every time we see a mild infection. That is where fumagillin has come to work very well, buying the bees time in the winter to shed off nosema apis, 
Managing Nosema C is a totally different ball game!


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## Ian

>>I am 98% sure it is NOT caused by nosema,


That 2% doubt, that nosema C could be related to your trouble, have you tested your residual bee population for it?


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## dthompson

*ccd = !nosema 99.9%*

That 98% was a CYA
No I have not tested yet (soon)
but
There are 6 MAJOR strikes against nosema
(1-3 personal observation, 4-6 USDA)

1: ccd is sensitive to Vitamin C (=likely virus)
2: ccd is deadly to ants, extermination if close
3: very young bees (emergents) show STR (>20, <50)
(STR=sore tummy rub) 

4: Acetic acid (AA) comb fumigation has little effect
5: Fumagillin has little long term effect (>1month)
6: Testing for nosema shows no corelation to ccd level

Even if the nosema was incredibly infective, very resistant
to control, and adroit at "hiding", how does it kill ants???

Too many strikes, your're out
dave


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## LSPender

*?*

Thompson

That 2 % is an unkown, is it not? 

You say nosema has no correlation in point # 6, but stated in opening that you have not tested for nosema, which is it? an assumtion or fact?

please note that I am assuming nosema C. based on eveidence seen and testing of sick bees. What I do not know is if something else is the enemy because of current testing methods available. If someone does know how to test for an unkown let me know.

What do you mean by vitamin C has an effect ? how what deliver system, has it taken a sick hive and made it better? Please expand on.

What do you mean ants dye off? This is not something I have looked at because I treat all yards with ant poison. 

Question, what time of year have your hives died off from ccd? 

What have you done with empty equipment that died off fromm ccd, ie fumigate, treat, or let sit for a period of time?. After that if equipment is reused does the new hive dye off from ccd the next year?

Please explore these questions with an open thought proccess to any possibility, I encourage all to do the same because we are all on the same team.

Thanks, Larry


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## dthompson

*reply to Larry*

Larry

4-6 from USDA (San Diego, 3 weeks ago)

http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2008.01.22.09.45.archive.html (added)

C is not an effective treatment (many reasons)
At 'robbing spot' many (majority) bees show STR
With plant mister spray 1 gm C in 50:50
on their backs, After 2 hrs none to
be found doing STR

Part of my yard had ants so bad I made an 'oil moat' system. 
I thought that I would have to
protect the (heavy) dead-outs from the ants, May & later. 
Instead the ants disappeared, none to be found!!!

Infection started (S yard) jul-aug/06
Abscond by end Nov/06, all hives
95% feed left apr/07

SO2 fumigation ineffective
X lasts at least 6 months
More experiments this yr, bleach, $ permitting, UV

As I said full formic will keep the hive from crashing 
(but not cure the infection)

Check all the details at bee-l
http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l

dave


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## Ian

>>Too many strikes, your're out


It will be interesting to review updated finding on CCD. It seems to have everyone puzzled. I think we are going to find there isnt just one factor, but many contributing factors. Dont be too quick to dismiss.

As for Nosema C, the focus of this thread, its potential distruction alone is going to cause alot of problems. The need to test is ever so more important.


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## Gene Weitzel

The problem with Nosema C. is that it penitrates deeper in the bee's gut, so the bees do not flush it out completely when they shed epitheleal cells. Fumigillin treats both types of Nosema the same way by inhibiting its ability to multiply once the spore has "hatched" and infected a cell. It has no effect on the spores themselves, so bees can be re-infected by spores left on the equipment once the Fumigillin treatment is discontinued. Fumigating equipment where feasible will kill the spores. Thymol in syrup also acts to inactivate the spores both on/in the equipment and within the bee's gut (when an infected cell full of spores erupts in the bee's gut in the presence of thymol, the spores are inactivated and cannot infect more cells within the same bee nor can they infect other bees when the spores are shed by the host). The bees store the thymolated syrup in the broodnest combs helping to disinfect them. I have a study that has shown that a winter/early spring feeding regime of thymolated syrup alone can effectively reduce Nosema infection to essentially an undetectable level within 3 years. The study is based on Nosema A. but there is no reason to believe that thymol would act any different on Nosema C. since it has shown the same effectiveness on most other fungi and microsporidians (including many other species of Nosema that infect other organisms in the same way that Nosema C. infects bees). I use thymol in my syrup mostly to retard mold growth in the syrup, but I can't ignore the possible benefit it has vs Nosema.


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## Joel

If it hasn't been mentioned yet there is an exceptional article in the December 2007 ABJ on Nosema by Randy Oliver. This type of work is consistenly what I think Randy does best, Researching a wide range of material and presenting it with some some conclusions. In addition to covering the "Twins" as he calls Apis and Cernae, it gives an in depth look at what I think many of us is the cause of CCD as a threshold disease with many contributing factors.

It is a must read article, extensive bibliography, Good Job by Randy Oliver.


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## Ian

>>I have a study that has shown that a winter/early spring feeding regime of thymolated syrup alone can effectively reduce Nosema infection to essentially an undetectable level within 3 years. The study is based on Nosema A. but there is no reason to believe that thymol would act any different on Nosema C.

Gene, I would be interested in a pdf copy of your studdy, sounds very interesting. I have viewed your studdy from your previous link, 
How much thymol did you add to the surip for your treatments?

When did you do your studdy? Have you any samples of the bees tested, to be able to detemine wheather or not your bees also had Nosema C? 
As I understand, with Nosema Apis infections, it has the tendencey to clear itself up over the summer months, or reduces the severity at the very least. Nosema C infestations dont follow that pattern at all. And probably from the explination you just gave. From your year to year infection numbers, your infestations tended to increase, along with your death rates. Perhaps your infestations were primairly of Noseam C? What do you think? 

Thanks


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## Moeuk

*Updated*

Hi Members
Just reading and re-reading some of your comments and information on this 'thread' and it has certainly made me better informed than I was. 
So to all of you who have contributed I say a 'heart felt THANK YOU'.

There is so much knowledge out there and people like yourselves who are willing to share your knowledge to help others be better beekeepers you should feel proud.

Thank you all

Moe.


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## Gene Weitzel

Ian said:


> >>I have a study that has shown that a winter/early spring feeding regime of thymolated syrup alone can effectively reduce Nosema infection to essentially an undetectable level within 3 years. The study is based on Nosema A. but there is no reason to believe that thymol would act any different on Nosema C.
> 
> Gene, I would be interested in a pdf copy of your studdy, sounds very interesting. I have viewed your studdy from your previous link,
> How much thymol did you add to the surip for your treatments?
> 
> When did you do your studdy? Have you any samples of the bees tested, to be able to detemine wheather or not your bees also had Nosema C?
> As I understand, with Nosema Apis infections, it has the tendencey to clear itself up over the summer months, or reduces the severity at the very least. Nosema C infestations dont follow that pattern at all. And probably from the explination you just gave. From your year to year infection numbers, your infestations tended to increase, along with your death rates. Perhaps your infestations were primairly of Noseam C? What do you think?
> 
> Thanks


Ian, I sent you a PM


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## dthompson

*Thymol syrup?*

Can you give a short recipe for this syrup?

dave


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## Gene Weitzel

dthompson said:


> Can you give a short recipe for this syrup?
> 
> dave


dave,

I had previously posted the link to the Mississippi Beekeepers Association news letter that has the specifics, but I just tried it and it no longer seems to work. Here is an excerpt from the March 2004 Bee News & Views put out by the MDAC:



> Concerning nosema disease, there possibly seems to be some encouragement now that an alternative for controlling nosema utilizing fumigillin exists. However, before you read the article below and jump to conclusions, I would advise that we see how it plays out in scientific experiments before jumping on ship and then back overboard. The following article is reprinted from The Antennae, March 2004 Inaugural Issue published by the Tennessee Hobbyist Beekeepers Association.
> 
> Alternative Treatment for Nosema Disease
> 
> 
> 
> Nosema is an adult honey bee disease that is caused by the single-celled protozoan, Nosema apis. The protozoa form resistant spores that can last for many years. The spores germinate in the midgut of the adult bee. Heavily infected bees have shortened life spans and cannot digest pollen. The incidence is highest in spring. The possible presence of nosema may be indicated by fecal deposits on the hive and weak colonies. However, fecal deposits can also result from dysentery requiring verification by examination of the digestive tract by microscopic analysis. Proper ventilation of the hive can aid in the prevention of nosema while the addition of the antibiotic, fumigillin (Fumidil B) to sugar syrup in the fall and spring is commonly recommended. Fumidil B is effective against nosema but it is expensive and is heat unstable.
> 
> 
> 
> The essential oil, thymol, has been proposed as a control of nosema in honey bees. Research with a nosema species, Nosema vespula, that infects wasps has shown that thymol in sugar syrup offers effective control. However, scientific data relative to the effects of thymol on N. apis are scarce. Nonetheless, the biology of N. apis in honey bees suggests that thymol may be very effective in controlling nosema disease according to the following model. First, after N. vespula infects the digestive tract epithelium it migrates to the fat bodies to replicate. N. apis replicates entirely within the digestive tract epithelium. Second, N. vespula leaves the host after the host dies. Infected honey bees continually release N. apis spores. Mature spores contaminate regurgitated brood-food, regurgitated nectar and feces. Thymol most likely enters the spore, disrupts its plasma membrane, and prevents germination. For N. vespula, thymol in the diet only contacts spores that are in the digestive tract. On the other hand, there are several opportunities for N. apis spores to come in contact with thymol contained in sugar syrup. Feeding honey bees consume the syrup containing a low concentration of thymol (0.44mM thymol suppresses nosema disease). When honey bees consume the syrup, they draw it into the honey sac. N. apis spores contaminating the mandibles, honey sac, and digestive tract become exposed to thymol. When the syrup is transferred to the honeycomb, the honeycomb is also exposed to the thymol. During concentration of the syrup by the honey bees, the thymol concentration also increases, thereby improving its effectiveness. With time, the level of infective N. apis spores in the hive declines to a level that does not cause nosema disease.
> 
> 
> 
> Method of Application: The sugar syrup concentration of 0.44 mM thymol is equal to 66 micrograms thymol per ml of syrup (0.000001 gram). Thus, the concentration is 0.000066 g/ml. As you can tell, this is a very low concentration so a concentrated stock solution needs to be made in 95-100% alcohol (rubbing alcohol will also work) and stored in a tightly sealed container in the refrigerator. As an example, a 10 ml (1 ml equals 1 cc) stock solution of 0.2g/m. is made. The concentration of the thymol in the stock solution can be increased at least 5 times in 100% alcohol and the volume made can be varied depending upon your needs. For use, add 1.25 ml of stock solution containing 0.2g thymol/ml to one gallon of syrup. The cost of adding thymol to sugar syrup is low. Using $15.00 for 100 g as an average cost, it would cost $0.30 for eight gallons of syrup excluding alcohol expense. No thymol should be present in the sugar syrup one month prior to supering. As an added benefit, the 0.44 mM concentration works well to prevent mold growth in the syrup (see also, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/thymolx1.html).
> 
> 
> 
> If you do not have a method for weighing, one level teaspoon of crystallized thymol weighs approximately 10g. There are 29.6 ml in one ounce. An insulin syringe is useful for measuring out the thymol stock solution for addition to the sugar syrup.
> 
> 
> 
> Sources of Crystallized Thymol: (Note: use only crystallized thymol, not thyme oil). Many companies will only sell to a business. A good source is Sigma (Product T 0501, 99.5% pure crystals, phone 800-325-3010, http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/suite7/Local/SA_Splash.html, P.O. Box 14508, St. Louis, MO 63178)
> 
> 
> 
> ScienceLab.com (http://www.sciencelab.com/ , 281-354-6400, 1407 North Park Dr., Kingwood, Texas 77339) sells to individuals and they offer a laboratory grade (Lab) of thymol. Laboratory grade has an upper-level intermediate quality; exact impurities may not be known.
> 
> 
> 
> Post Apple Scientific (http://shop2.chemassociates.com/01 _aboutus.html , 877-243-6066, 8893 Gulf Road North East, PA 16428-4298) also sell an NF grade which is one step up from Lab Grade. They also sell a purified grade which is usually considered one step below Lab Grade.
> 
> 
> 
> Drugdepot.com (http://www.drugsdepot.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_main.html?p_catid=1 , 760-344-6303, Valley Medical Pharmacy, 630 Main Street, Brawley, CA 92227) sells several grades including USP, meaning acceptable for drug use, but you need a prescription. With a prescription you could also get it from your local pharmacy.


I think the description of thymol controlling Nosema vespula in wasps is significant, since N. vespula infections in wasp are very similar to the way Nosema C. behaves in honey bees.


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## tecumseh

great post Gene.... you get an A+ on that one.


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## JBJ

Except for the fact that it states that Nosema is a protozoa, it is a class of fungus known as a microsporidian. Randy Oliver has communicated with me that "Re thymol--the 0.44mM syrup does not work! I just started a trial of fumagillin applied four different ways, 3x thymol, HoneyBHealthy, and bleach in syrup. Will have results in late spring." So there is some work to be done on dosage for honey bees.

I also think it may be wise to look at other industries that have to deal with microsporidian infections. What compounds and control methods are they using? Know thy enemy as they say. Now that we know Nosema is a fungus not a protozoa, we should be able to find new materials and methods to deal with it.


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## Gene Weitzel

JBJ said:


> Except for the fact that it states that Nosema is a protozoa, it is a class of fungus known as a microsporidian.


I have read that article several times and never noticed this error. The article was written in 2004, it was definitely known by then that Nosema was a microsporidian, so it surprises me a little to see this in a publication that is sponsored by a major state university. Guess there are still a lot of folks hanging on to the old taxonomy.


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## JBJ

interesting reads: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/17/1/23
http://article.pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ppv/RPViewDoc?issn=0831-2796&volume=48&issue=3&startPage=355
although the second link still refers to Nosema a a protozoa check out figure 4 on page 364.

Here is another
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/96/2/580.pdf

I also found it interesting that microsporidians are used as biological control agents for a wide variety of pests including many insect "pests" including wax & gypsy moths, flies, and mosquitoes just to name a few. I wonder if application of these other microsporidians affect out bees? Here is a page on the subject:
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/Parasiticfungi.php

Here is something from the Journal of Applied Entomology (May 2005) on controlling Nosema in silk worms: "Carbendazim, a benzimidazole compound is effective in curing pebrine disease in silkworm, Bombyx mori, caused by Nosema bombycis, if treatment is given within 48 h post-infection or before the parasite establishes itself in the host tissue. Ultrastructural evidence of the action of carbendazim showed an adverse effect of the drug on both merogonic and sporogonic stages of the parasite in the midgut and silk gland of the silkworm. The drug caused elongation, vacuolation and depletion of cytoplasmic contents of the meront, sporont, sporoblast and spore stages of N. bombycis." This material sounds like it has drawbacks but there may be other safer "microsporidianacides" other than fumagillan. Could a well balanced and robust intestinal ecology inhibit Nosema infections? Too many questions for now, I have go do some actual bee chores before the next trip to Ca. This has been an interesting thread.


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## Gene Weitzel

JBJ said:


> Randy Oliver has communicated with me that "Re thymol--the 0.44mM syrup does not work!


Thymol at the 0.44mM concentration in syrup does not seem to provide the short term control that fumidil does, however with long term use (2-3 years) its effects appear to reduce the spore counts to a much lower level than fumidil (per Yucel & Dogaroglu, The Impact of Nosema Apis Z. Infestation of Honey Bees (Apis melifera L.) Colonies after Using Different Treatment Methods and Their Effects on the Population Levels of Workers and Honey Production on Consecutive Years, 2005).

I use it primarily as a way to prevent mold in the syrup. But I also believe that by routinely using it this way, it is likely that it helps to act as a Nosema preventative as well.


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## Ian

I have been doing some searching on the comment made in another topic related to hives not being robbed out with they are infected with nosema C.
I looked high and low, and find nothing to support this obsevation, BUT when talking to people, there are beekeepers who also claim this to be true.

I have nothing to use to prove or disprove this observation other than some casual conversations over the net.
Here is a snip from one, names blanked out, but I am sure everyone would recognize the name, perhaps names of them.

>>Hi Ian, ..... I'm in Pennsylvania speaking....
---- says that he normally doesn't see robbing in nosema ceranae 
deadouts. My friend ---- in Chile said he did. 
Very interesting! .....

The fellow I was talking to in my eye would considered well versed on the disease. And from brief conversation with him, couldnt disprove the observation. 

I do believe there might be more to the story than we may think. Remember I am strictly talking Nosema C in regards to this precieved observation.

Does anyone have any reference to any studdy regarding this observation?

Thanks


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## dthompson

*Not robbing?*

Ian you have found yet another who thinks
nosema causes ccd

It is ccd where there is no robbing

Reread post #30 to see my opinion (and #27)

dave


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## Ian

Dave,

I dont know why you are here figuring that this discussion is trying to link CCD with Nosema C? Is it part of the CCD problem, perhaps, but is it the root cause of CCD? That is for another discussion. I am trying to focus this thread on Nosema C, and trying to figure what the heck its all about. If some of the symtoms of Nosema C may also be symtoms of CCD, then take it as it is. Lets try to figure it out. I know about as much on Nosema C as the next common beekeeper. Right now I would rather focus on Nosema C and figure it out without confusing the conversation with CCD.


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## dthompson

Pardon me Ian, I didn't
try to step on your toes

bye

dave


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## JBJ

I know several beekeepers who have had CCD like symptoms and sent remaining bees to labs for Nosema detection and the spore loads were almost undetectable.


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## Aspera

Michael Bush said:


> >I was talking to a fellow from France who said it is not allowed to be used in France. Also a fellow from Germany said the same. Perhaps different rules and regs in Europe than are in place here in North America
> 
> Fumadil is illegal in the European Union because it causes birth defects. Specifically it causes a malformation of the blood vessels in embryos.


Micheal,

Do you have any more information about this? I haven't used this product in a while and don't have the package insert handy.


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## yoyo

First, these are just my thoughts and I have no fancy studies to support this statement.

I would think that the reason that the bees go thru winter only to crash in the spring is contributed to the fact that winter bees are not using stores as much as when the spring build up occurs. There probably are spores that are in the boxes, combs, honey, bee bread and the bees themselves. When the population has reached a low winter time level, and having been somewhat confined, the bees that have spores are contaminating the hive interior even more by not being able to do bathroom flights. So, just as the scales tip in favor of varroa populations in the late summer, the scales now tip in favor of the Nosema. Now comes the spring build up. You have alot of stores being consumed to raise brood. The stores are contaminated with the spores and the bees that are feeding the new brood already had spores in them to begin with. So now there is an escalation in the spore counts and the Nosema is reaching a critical level. If the bees are able to do more relieving flights, the contaminated feces are now outside the hive where they can not build up. The bees are doing thier best to rid themselves of it. At this point, it is a delicate balance of whether the bees can overcome the building spore counts. This explains why bees seem to suddenly get better in the summer and the nosema seems to vanish. The spores are still present, but the bees are able to keep the spores at a much lower level, preventing the build up to the critical level. Feeding of Fumagilin or any other chemical that helps the bees keep the spore numbers down is only an effective bandaid and not a cure ( just like a sugar shake treatment for varroa is), but one that everyone should be using if confronted with maybe loosing hives. I hope that more research is being done to find better ways to apply the few treatments we have in this battle. The fumagilin is expensive and an improper dosage, or improper application lowers it's efficacy. I think it is important to concentrate on one thing at a time. Surely Nosema is a major threat to colonies, maybe now at the top of the list of bee diseases and getting the notice it deserves.


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## Ian

>>The bees are doing thier best to rid themselves of it. At this point, it is a delicate balance of whether the bees can overcome the building spore counts. This explains why bees seem to suddenly get better in the summer and the nosema seems to vanish.

As in cases of Nosema Apis, but not Nosema ceranae. The bees cant shed Nosema ceranae. It sheds as the bees themselves die away from the hive. This is where the treatments of fumigillin become extreemly practical. The other most effective control method is comb replacement. YOu can see how the use of fumagillin can be used with great advantage. If we can delay the explosion of infection, and retard the growth of the disease, we are able to extend the useful life of our equipment. I am not talking 10-20 years, I am suggesting 5-10 years. It may be really hard to cull out infected equipment with contaminated with NOsema C infections. Where as with Nosema A infections, infections were easily diagnosed visually and culling of combs would be done accordingly.
I havent figured this one out yet!


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## Michael Bush

>>Fumadil is illegal in the European Union because it causes birth defects. Specifically it causes a malformation of the blood vessels in embryos.

>Do you have any more information about this? I haven't used this product in a while and don't have the package insert handy.

I doubt it's on the package insert.

Previously covered here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215806

But here's are those plus some more
---------------------------------------------
"Special Considerations During Pregnancy...
Systemic fumagillin has been associated with increased
resorption and growth retardation in rats. No data on use in
human pregnancy are available. However, because of the
antiangiogenic effect of fumagillin, this drug should not be
used among pregnant women (EIII). Topical fumagillin has
not been associated with embryotoxic or teratogenic effects
among pregnant women and might be considered when
therapy with this agent is appropriate (CIII)."

http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/PDF/rr/rr5315.pdf
Pg 14

Treating Opportunistic Infections Among
HIV-Infected Adults and Adolescents
----------------------------------------

Targeted gene disruption of methionine aminopeptidase 2 results in an embryonic gastrulation defect and endothelial cell growth arrest
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1480595
----------------------------------------

"Targeted gene disruption of methionine aminopeptidase 2 results in an
embryonic gastrulation defect and endothelial cell growth arrest"
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/27/10379

----------------------------------------
Fumagillin can block blood vessel formation by binding to an enzyme
called methionine aminopeptidase so for more research and links try Google or Yahoo on: 
"methionine aminopeptidase" fumagillin 
or
"methionine aminopeptidase" fumadil


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## HVH

I have been wondering for some time if an application of a strong protease to woodenware and other hive components would be effective against foulbrood spores and Nosema. The logic being that bacterial, fungal and protozoan spores have proteinaceous outer surfaces that are incredibly stable (long lived and resistant to a host of treatments). Since I have not had problems yet with these diseases, I have not tested the hypothesis. It seems, though, that a run to the grocery store to purchase some meat tenderizer (protease) is all that is needed to get the experiment started. The question is what kind of controls to use and what will be used as the assay. If someone actually had hives that tested positive for Nosema, the equipment could be cleared of bees, the equipment randomly scrambled between a treatment and non-treatment group. Bees would then be added and followed over time. Bees could be tested to confirm results. I am not sure what to do about spores trapped in wax.


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## simplyhoney

*no coorelation*

I agree Dthomson,

We too have seen the devistating effects of "ccd". On the advice of some older wiser beekeepers I gave my colonies 3 seperate doses of Fumagilin-b in the "Canadian" dose 9.5g to 7 gallons of syrup and a 1/2 cup dose to each colony in late fall. It seemed to help initially but the colonies crashed again just before the almonds. Seems to be to have something to do with tapping into their stores. I, like many, feel that it is a combination of things but I feel that the final straw that is weakening our hives is enviromental. BT protein/systimics/ or turbulant weather patterns. I spent all winter scraping frames from dead hivebodies then boiling them. I also have several hundred that I fumigated with Acitic acid, some that dippd in bleach solution, 200 new hive bodies and some that I sorted as good comb but didn't do anything special. Time will tell. The bees seem to be getting better but I am still having problems keeping my numbers up.


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## dthompson

*For me ccd != nosema*

FWIW simplyhoney I got back my
third test for nosema
It was again zero as were Jun24 and jan21 tests
I continue to think it is a virus
The faeces are very stinky and I'm seeing
more dysentry than I ever have before
So the $8 test will save me buying expensive fumidil

dave


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## Troy

Lspender,

I wish our irradiation chamber were made for small stuff like yours. We have an irradiation facility here in FL, and I called about radiating used equipment.

They won't take anything smaller than a pallet load and it costs $250 per load. They can fit like 6 or 8 pallets in the chamber at once, so if you have a small load, it costs more. If you can fit in with someone else then it is a bit cheaper. It has been a year since I called, but if I remember right the $250 figure is assuming a whole load. It was more for a single pallet.

As a part time beekeeper with only 10 hives, I cannot ever have enough equipment to get up to a pallet load. I would have to save equipment for years (somehow) to come up with a pallet load.


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