# Here is how much wax is recovered from one bar in a TBH



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Randy oliver just had an artical in the american bee journal that his conclution was that it did in fact take about 8 lbs to build a lb of comb. Unless of course I come to the wrong conclution on reading what he wrote (always possible).
Cheers
gww


----------



## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

@Ruth, thanks for sharing. I always wondered. I quickly realized how thin, light weight, yet effective the comb they build really is.


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

If the comb had ever had any brood reared in it, then a lot of the wax gets encased in the pupa casings and is very very hard to melt out. 

I have fed bees to get comb drawn, and to get a single deep frame drawn it takes somewhere around a gallon to a gallon and a half of 1:1 syrup.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Perhaps the figure takes into account the amount consumed by the bees building comb as well. Not sure how much energy expense comb building causes, but it must take some.


----------



## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

how many kilojoules does it take to make 1lb wax?
gotcha


kilojoules = energy


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Wax produces roughly 20 kj per gram when burned. Convert grams to ounces. Now add sunk metabolic costs which are estimated at 18%, i.e. the energy the bee consumes as it produces, then manipulates wax into comb.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

What Dar and DavidZ said.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

While we're calculating energy use, cost, and efficiency "how much weight in grits does it take a bricklayer to produce a wall eight feet tall and 50 feet long?".


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>"how much weight in grits does it take a bricklayer to produce a wall eight feet tall and 50 feet long?

That depends on where he lives. In Massachusetts it takes none... in Georgia it takes a lot...

The only two experiments I've seen actually quoted on conversion of honey to wax are Huber's and Whitcomb. Whitcomb's experiment was with free flying bees and unmarketable honey. Huber's was with confined bees and sugar syrup as well as some other sugar sources. Whitcomb came up with between 6.66 pounds of honey to 8.80 pounds of honey. Huber came up with 10.6 pounds of sugar syrup to one pound of wax. He repeated his experiments seven times and came up with the same. He also used brown sugar and got 5.3 pounds of sugar to a pound of wax and the same results for maple sugar.

But those results may be irrelevant anyway. 

"Again, at all times of a heavy yield of honey, the bees secrete wax whether any combs are built or not; and if the sections are all supplied with foundation, and the hive filled with comb, this wax is wasted or else the foundation given is wasted; have it which way you please...To show that I am not alone in this matter regarding the waste of wax, I wish to quote from two or three of our best apiarists; the first is Prof. Cook, and no one will say that he is not good authority. he says on page 166 of the latest edition of his Manual 'But I find upon examination that the bees, even the most aged, while gathering, in the honey season, yield up the wax scales the same as those within the hive. During the active storing of the past season, especially when comb-building was in rapid progress, I found that nearly every bee taken from the flowers contained wax scales of varying size, in the wax pockets.'
"This is my experience during "active storing," and the wax scales are to be found on the bees just the same whether they are furnished with foundation or not; and I can arrive at no other conclusion than that arrived at by Mr. S.J. Youngman, when he says on page 108: 'The bees secrete wax during a honey flow, whether they are building comb or not; and if they are not employed in building comb, this wax is most certainly lost.'
"Once more on page 93, of the American Apiculturist, Mr. G.W. Demaree says: 'Observation has convinced me that swarms leave the parent colony better prepared to build comb than they ever are under other circumstances; and that if they are not allowed to utilize this accumulated force, by reason of having full sheets of foundation at hand to work out, there will necessarily be some loss; and I think that when the matter is computed, to find the loss and gain the result will show that the foundation really costs the apiarist double what he actually pays for it in cash'...Now, I have often noticed, and especially in looking back over the last year, after reading Mr. Mitchell's "Mistaken Economy," that swarms hived in June would fill their hives full of nice straight worker combs, and the combs would be filled with brood during the first two weeks after hiving; while a colony not casting a swarm would not make a gain of a single pound of honey; nor would a swarm having a full set of combs given them, or the frames filled with foundation, be a whit better off at the end of two weeks. Mr. P.H. Elwood has noted the same thing; thus proving that the theory that it takes 20 pounds of honey to produce one pound of comb, will not hold good in cases where bees desire comb and have free access to pollen. As most of my comb is built at this time, the reader will readily see that the combs cost me but little, save the looking after the colony once or twice while building comb, which is far cheaper than buying foundation, or fussing with a foundation mill."--G.M. Doolittle ABJ Vol 20 No 18 pg 276


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

The chart from Mr. Oliver's ABJ Journal article. 



I've never been too concerned with the 'cost' in honey of drawing comb. But the balance between drawing it fast enough and filling it slowly enough that they don't plug up the broodnest. And empty combs allow them to take advantage of a sudden, fast flow.


----------



## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

wow, I was just teasing, but I'm stoked to get a answer.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

There's another chart in the article where he gives it a dollar value based on sugar/honey prices. haha


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Michael Bush
I have read and generally take at face value the quotes you posted. My swarms however did not build out comb in two weeks and are also light in weight. I fed a bit of sugar to see if it could be improved and it was nice to see the test randy did to put into perspective what I was seeing in a late season and not normal time for comb to be built. My three gal feeding made them build a tiny bit of comb but I have decided I am unwilling to feed what it takes to get one two thirds of the comb that would be needed to properly winter with three mediums. I am going to mounten camp on one medium and hold my breath. 

Seeing the artical and putting it to what I was seeing at home helped me make my good/bad decision.

I am compleetly foundationless and hoping to have some bees next year during a flow.

I will however from this point forward feed any swarm I catch early in the year till they have built more comb then those I caught this year did when not feeding till it was too late.

I would like to say that I have been too cheep to buy your books "but should" cause your free internet stuff has been there and is a godsend for a person like me just starting out.

Cheers
gww


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> The chart from Mr. Oliver's ABJ Journal article.
> 
> 
> 
> I've never been too concerned with the 'cost' in honey of drawing comb. But the balance between drawing it fast enough and filling it slowly enough that they don't plug up the broodnest. And empty combs allow them to take advantage of a sudden, fast flow.


I know better than that.  

The mathematics and cost-comparisons involved in ordering Acorn wax-coated foundations about blew my mind. Saved a box full of nickels I bet. Use 7/10ths pound wax (11.2 ounces) per deep to coat 10 plasticell foundations. This thread shows that you're putting on almost exactly what the bees would and that did not happen by accident.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Feeding a swarm at a moderate rate is often useful. Feeding them at an unlimited rate often leads to swarming or stunting the growth of the swarm because of a backfilled brood nest. With a jar you can control the rate by using fewer holes in the lid. With some feeders there is no way to easily control the rate other than feeding small amounts and leaving a gap in time where there is no syrup so they have time to draw some comb and move it out of the brood nest.


----------



## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

gww said:


> Michael Bush
> I have read and generally take at face value the quotes you posted. My swarms however did not build out comb in two weeks and are also light in weight. I fed a bit of sugar to see if it could be improved and it was nice to see the test randy did to put into perspective what I was seeing in a late season and not normal time for comb to be built. My three gal feeding made them build a tiny bit of comb but I have decided I am unwilling to feed what it takes to get one two thirds of the comb that would be needed to properly winter with three mediums. I am going to mounten camp on one medium and hold my breath.
> 
> Seeing the artical and putting it to what I was seeing at home helped me make my good/bad decision.
> ...


You might take a look at sugar bricks for the winter. I now add them in late Dec to all my hives, just as an "insurance". The bees are active all winter in this part of VA and seem to eat the sugar before they dip into the honey stores. Works well for my situation where I am overwintering very small colonies in nucs.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Are the bricks just a variation in shape of the candy board? Is it the same consistency as candy? I have made some TBH frames that hold candy and used them my first year for emergency. Was going to utilize them again for nucs like you if the need arises.


----------



## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I have simplified my recipe over the years to be 3 cups of sugar to 1/4 cup of water. Mix together in a bowl (no heating). It will be the consistency of damp sand. Dump into an disposable aluminum pan and press down with a spoon. Let it air dry about 3 days and you have a very hard brick. I usually slide them onto the screened bottom of my TBHs as my comb doesn't all go down to the floor. Alternately, they can be hung from a mesh bag that is attached to an empty bar.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Ok, I like the no boil recipe. Will utilize that, thanks!

My TBH sugar frames hold exactly a 4 lb. bag of sugar with residual moisture. I have # 8 mesh that is sandwiched between the frame sides and spans across the frame. It sort of works on the same principle as rebar in concrete. I will turn them horizontally, use a cardboard backing, pour sugar solution in and after drying, remove cardboard. Works quite well, and keeps sugar in place. I like your mesh bag idea too, much easier. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

ruthiesbees

I have two long langs built that I was hoping a swarm might move into and three hive/nuc. one is three medium and two are one medium lang. 

I noticed you don't use vinager in your recipe. I took my feeding shims off the langs today (and got stung on the toe). They are 1 and 3/8th inch thick. I was going to put them on wax paper on the floor in my garage and see how much sugar mixed at about 16 lbs to three cups of water (youtube vid) and see how much they would hold. I am not going to put any wire under them and just put them over the top bars of the frames on the hives. I have all homemade stuff and do not have the upper entrance notch in my top covers and didn't want to drill holes in the shim boxes cause I also use them to baggy feed and so am trying to decide if I need to do one or the other or have no upper intrance. 

My mind was telling me to maby put it on in november. I am on the edge of zone 5 and 6 and probly closer to zone 5. How does that compare to where you are? I Thank you for the candy board ideal. If I ever get the long langs going, I may get rid of a portion of some of the lang frames so I can feed in that fassion if needed. I bought a bunch of sugar today to try and make the candy boards so they will be there when I need them. If our winters are close is november to early to place on the hives for some reason? Your thought on a bit of vinigar?
Thanks for wanting to help me.
gww

Ps Is there a minimum temp that you will crack the hive long enough to drop a candy board in your hive? This is why I was thinking of november cause I might still run into a 55/60 degree day.


----------



## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I've used vinegar in the past for the fondant, etc and just chose to go with the simpler recipe. My bees will forage all year long in the mild winters of Tidewater Virginia so the sugar brick is not the main thing they are eating. Our winter doesn't really start here until December and my last real inspection on my bees in early Nov so the propolis seal can set properly. I do look at the weather outlook for December and find the warmest day to put the sugar brick in the hives then. When I do it in November, the bees eat it gone by December and then I am stuck wondering if I should put another one in there. For where I am at, with the amount of winter forage near my hives, late December works for me. For the beekeepers 5 miles down the road in an agricultural area, the forage is not the same and their bees may need it sooner.

and just as a comparison, we are zone 7b.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Ruthiesbees
Thank you
gww


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Very interesting I didn't know actual experiments had been done, always thought that the 8 to 1 ratio was just a number someone pulled out of a hat. But it does appear it is probably about right.

So if Ruthie's comb which she says is similar to a lang frame in size was 1 ounce of wax, then we could extrapolate that a 10 frame lang box would be 10 ounces of wax, and therefore 80 ounces of honey used to make it, or in other words 5 pounds, which does not seem a lot.

In reality though I am certain a hive that has to build a complete honey box of foundationless comb from scratch is retarded by more than 5 pounds, in fact if 2 similar hives were next to each other but one was given boxes of drawn comb while the other had to draw everything from scratch, I am certain the difference in harvestable honey would be considerably more than 5 pounds per box.

The reason for this is that bees are economical creatures, and only draw comb if they have an immediate need for it. Thus a hive in a dearth will not draw comb in quantity, it has to be fed. So a hive being provided with drawn comb has the comb it needs to gather all the nectar it can, and have room to spread that around for evaporation. A hive drawing foundationless will draw what they think they need but be less liberal with spreading nectar around for evaporation and will collect less. Or at least that's my theory.


----------



## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

As they say, time is money, well in this case, honey. There is certain amount of time that a bee of proper age has to spend to convert the honey into wax and build comb. Time that may otherwise be spent on foraging, feeding, converting etc resulting in potentially less honey in a hive that has to build comb from start vs the hive with given drawn comb. Just thinking loud. 

Cost of production + lost revenue = difference ?


----------



## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Very interesting I didn't know actual experiments had been done, always thought that the 8 to 1 ratio was just a number someone pulled out of a hat. But it does appear it is probably about right.
> 
> So if Ruthie's comb which she says is similar to a lang frame in size was 1 ounce of wax, then we could extrapolate that a 10 frame lang box would be 10 ounces of wax, and therefore 80 ounces of honey used to make it, or in other words 5 pounds, which does not seem a lot.
> 
> ...


What we got was an answer to "How much wax will I get?" rather than any indication of how much wax goes into a frame or how much honey goes into making wax.

The comb is somewhat smaller than a deep lang, being 15.5 inches at the top and having sloped sides (as opposed to 17 inches and straight sides) and was brood comb (which retains a good bit of beeswax) so while it "Yielded" 1 oz, we have no idea how much wax went into it. Much like the other measure, "honey combs weigh 6-8 lbs BEFORE harvest" But what does it YIELD? 4 or 5 lbs?

We run a good number of top bars and langs. Our spring flow is fairly short and doesn't yield the amount of honey as some areas. My perception is that, from a practical matter, I can either get a box of foundation drawn out and filled or 2 boxes of drawn comb filled with honey. In the build up before the flow, I can either give them room to draw fresh comb or let them swarm into the trees. 

While I see 8lbs / 1 lb as ratio arrived at by scientific method, the timing of comb drawing is what matters. Early spring, young bees, light flow = that energy is either going to get spent drawing comb or queen cells (NOT storing surplus honey). Heavy flow, lots of foragers = if there is plenty of open comb, nectar gets stored, if not, foraging slows down waiting on wax to be drawn (double whammy = honey is burned up to make wax AND less nectar comes in). 

And, I've had over wintered nucs that seem to do both (draw comb and make honey) extremely well - to the point where lacking drawn comb seemed of mo detriment.


----------



## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

ChuckReburn said:


> While I see 8lbs / 1 lb as ratio arrived at by scientific method, the timing of comb drawing is what matters. Early spring, young bees, light flow = that energy is either going to get spent drawing comb or queen cells (NOT storing surplus honey). Heavy flow, lots of foragers = if there is plenty of open comb, nectar gets stored, if not, foraging slows down waiting on wax to be drawn (double whammy = honey is burned up to make wax AND less nectar comes in).


Right - I think what most of this tells us is the effect of not having open cells for the queen to lay in (and workers to put honey) - not the actual "cost" in honey for wax. That's the real cost - you have foragers not foraging and queens not laying because there's no space - which leads to a smaller colony with less stores.


----------

