# Someone finally selling narrow foundationless frames



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Finally narrow foundationless and narrow foundation, deeps and mediums, it looks like:

http://forestbees.com/new-products


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Sales pitches are disallowed without the vendor buying advertising.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I am glad someone is finally making narrow frames. I get too many requests to make and sell them.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

i might start making them if i can sell for that much!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

What is the width of the top bars? It appears possible that the construction may be simply shaved ears rather than the overall proportional reduction that would result in preserving proper bee space between the installed top bars. I stand to be corrected if this is not the case. Hard to tell from the pictures.

In the link there is some pretty flowery accolades for Mr. Bush; I would blush!


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

MB: 

Thanks for the news release. Was going to order some from Mann Lake to modify for the new TF beekeepers. No more.

This is not a sales pitch. Its much waited on news.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Sales pitches are disallowed without the vendor buying advertising.

I'm not selling anything. I just finally found some.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

Right now they have the foundationless medium frames available. They almost have enough orders to justify a production run of deeps with Peirco foundation. Minimum order is 1,000 frames. A second email has been sent inquiring if they will have deep, wedge top split bottoms for use with wax foundation.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

crofter said:


> It appears possible that the construction may be simply shaved ears rather than the overall proportional reduction that would result in preserving proper bee space between the installed top bars.


Yup, those top bars are too wide. Would probably work at a pinch, but hive would be happier with them shaved some. Someone, perhaps MB, should let them know before they make too many like that.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have a sample one. The top bar is 1" wide. The end bars are 1 1/4" wide. That leaves 1/4" space. Top bar width could be anything from 3/4" to 1" and work fine with 1 1/4" spacing.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> I have a sample one. The top bar is 1" wide. The end bars are 1 1/4" wide. That leaves 1/4" space. Top bar width could be anything from 3/4" to 1" and work fine with 1 1/4" spacing.


So they're cutting it kinda close, so to speak. Maybe that'll keep the queen from going bar hopping.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I bought 6 nucs that were on shaved sidebar, standard top bar frames which is what these frames amount to; there is noticeably more burr comb built between top bars. They are getting pretty well scattered and mixed with other unmodified frames, so they are liveable but still less than ideal.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

crofter said:


> I bought 6 nucs that were on shaved sidebar, standard top bar frames which is what these frames amount to; there is noticeably more burr comb built between top bars.


To me its a bit of a mystery why they would get burr comb because of this. Frank, do you have an idea why?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Revised - I overlooked a key element. inch:


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> I have a sample one. The top bar is 1" wide. The end bars are 1 1/4" wide. That leaves 1/4" space. Top bar width could be anything from 3/4" to 1" and work fine with 1 1/4" spacing.


Sounds like Bush is more than just a bystander posting an internet find, but is actively marketing and flogging the item.

Sort of like the flow hive fiasco, that had a Australia tour by Bush associated with his endorsement.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> >> The top bar is 1" wide. The end bars are 1 1/4" wide. That leaves 1/4" space.
> 
> 
> 
> If you put two of these frames next to each other, with the end bars _touching_ - as presumably they are intended, the open space between each top bar is 1/2". That is _larger_ than 'bee space'. It seems to me that making that 1/2" _smaller_, i.e., _bee space_, would be a better choice.


that is an incorrect statement. the 1/4" difference is divided, so 1/8" for each side past the 1" bar. this leaves 1/4" between top bars when you push two frames against each other.

FWIW i started a couple narrow foundationless medium hives last year. i see zero burr comb, but they have also yet to fully attach comb to the bottom bars. most of the top bars i left at 1". there is slight hesitation for the queen to move up. seems she would rather lay up an entire box before moving to the next one, but has no problem jumping to that next box to then work on filling it. i rearranged to try to put at least one shaved top bar in the middle of each box, but i dont think it is going to make any much of a difference. not worth the effort in my mind. queen jumps fine after filling the box she is currently working.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Rader, please look closer at the spacing. Your post is incorrect not properly accounting for the topbar width.

The optimum width of the top bar is 7/8" for 1 1/4 inch wide frames. They also work very well with 15/16". I prefer to make my frames with 32 mm end bars which is 1.26 inches. The bees will build less burr comb in this pattern:

3/4" = heavy burr comb
13/16 = moderately heavy burr comb
7/8 = minimum burr comb, combs tend to be slightly fatter and extend up the side of the top bar
15/16 - slightly more burr comb, combs tend to extend up the side of the top bar
1" - top bars tend to be connected with an abundance of burr comb
1 1/16 - The top bars will be completely connected on many frames making removal difficult.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Yes I screwed that up.  I'll change that post.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

JWChesnut said:


> Sounds like Bush is more than just a bystander posting an internet find, but is actively marketing and flogging the item.
> 
> Sort of like the flow hive fiasco, that had a Australia tour by Bush associated with his endorsement.


No one's running for office JWC, so you can stop the campaign at anytime. Yeesh.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

FP post # 17 says it all;

1/4" space between top bars is on the tight side; that is what will result with a full 1" wide standard top bar and shaved sidebars; It will get clogged up more than 3/8" which is about optimum. To achieve that with 1 1/4 sidebars you have to make the top bars narrower too. Here are some pics of a set I made that preserves bee space. 

It is not the end of the world but you will find the difference if you work hives with proper bee space compared to ones with only 1/4" space. If you are going to let the frame shoulders build up with propolis and effectively become 1 3/8" c-c space, it wont make any difference, but then why bother buying narrow side bars?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Very nice workmanship Crofter. 

You know there's a pretty good living to be had selling those things at $129 for a 60 pack 

Yours worth more though, properly bee spaced top bars.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

> If you are going to let the frame shoulders build up with propolis and effectively become 1 3/8" c-c space, it wont make any difference, but then why bother buying narrow side bars?


Because the propolis will build up on the shoulders of my 1 3/8" bars also. Frank, those are good looking frames.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Riverderwent said:


> Because the propolis will build up on the shoulders of my 1 3/8" bars also. Frank, those are good looking frames.


If you dont keep them tight together the bees will fill the spaces between the shoulders of the sidebars. You do have to keep at cleaning sidebars to prevent the creep in actual c to c dimension. 

I think relatively few people actually do maintain a 1 1/4" spacing for very long. Most give lip service to the idyllic benefits. Fusion power has spoken in other posts about the extra care it takes to manage the tight spacing. If you do not provide dedicated drone areas you will have interlocking drone cell construction on alternate comb faces which complicates management. Drone comb needs wider spacing; even 1 3/8" is marginal there.

Yes it can be done but it takes dedication. Narrow spacing is no hands off cure all.

This is a bit of a derail of the original post. Those frames do provide the defined ridge to encourage centered foundationless comb construction and the narrow spacing which some people feel is conducive to smaller cell building. 

If I were to be putting a big bunch of them into hives I think I would make a jig for a router that would slightly reduce the width along the sides the top bar in the area between the end bar rabbets so that the bee space would be closer to ideal.

I can understand the companys reluctance to re set the cutting dimensions of sidebar and top bar and choose to merely shave the edge of the sidebars.

Edit; I just noticed that the two frames next to the gap happen to be some of the standard frames with shaved sidebars; notice the burr comb between their top bars compared to other frames.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've done end bars at 1 1/4" on frames where the top bar was 1 1/16" and they worked. I never bothered to narrow the top bar. 1" wide top bar with 1/4" spaces (rather than the 3/16" I got from the 1 1/16" top bars) work fine in my experience. Also keep in mind that the bees are smaller. Mine are noticeably smaller.


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## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

One could always add spacers to the frames if you feel the need to adjust bee space or bar center to center spacing. 

I made several 1" top bar frames and utilized 3/8" upholstery tacks as spacers (learned from Bernhard). Note the location of the spacers are opposite to each other on one side only. This way if you flip the frame spacing remains the same. I have some burr comb, but it doesn't require any significant extra effort to manage.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

An email was sent about deep wedge tops, split bottoms, with eyelets for those of us who use wax with cross wires. Thier response:

"I won’t have this style until possibly later in the year. 

Right now special order is the non-V top bar frames are double groove, no eyelets. Made for plastic foundation but can be modified."

Oh well. Back to modifying Mann Lakes


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

At the advertised price, I'm out. I'll get a cheap spindle sander from Harbor Freight and get covered in sawdust rather than pay that.


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## xphoney (Nov 7, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> I've done end bars at 1 1/4" on frames where the top bar was 1 1/16" and they worked. I never bothered to narrow the top bar. 1" wide top bar with 1/4" spaces (rather than the 3/16" I got from the 1 1/16" top bars) work fine in my experience. Also keep in mind that the bees are smaller. Mine are noticeably smaller.


We also have successfully cut down end bars on Mann Lake plastic and wood frames and they seem to work well so far. The foundationless that I cut myself are all 7/8 and are interspersed, help take some of the pressure off.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

The little twiggy top bars of the frames I make are 3/4 inch. The bees fill out with comb to make the bee space they want. They seem to work just fine.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

JeronimoJC said:


> One could always add spacers to the frames if you feel the need to adjust bee space or bar center to center spacing.
> 
> I made several 1" top bar frames and utilized 3/8" upholstery tacks as spacers (learned from Bernhard). Note the location of the spacers are opposite to each other on one side only. This way if you flip the frame spacing remains the same. I have some burr comb, but it doesn't require any significant extra effort to manage.
> 
> ...


Jeronimo this frames look just like mine.
Do you think the thick bars will be a problem to the cluster to go to the top box in winter time?


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## Opie (May 26, 2017)

Do you use them only in the brood box, or in supers as well?


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

Brood box. The brood cell size dictates the size of the bees. That is the objective, natural sized bees. Who cares what size cells they make in the honey supers.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

If one wanted to narrow the top bars a couple passes with a router for the middle section would probably work fine. I have an idea for making a multi leveled observation hive using top bars with the middle sections routered out so the bees can move between boxes. 

Good point about wintering. I guess its possible one can exclude the queen.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

After a few years of use, cleaning and scraping, I'm pretty sure our frames are getting a bit more narrow each year


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## Peter McDowell (Jul 24, 2016)

Mike, do you have a preferred set of dimensions for frames? I am considering making my own this winter. I could reduce some existing frames to 1+1/4 wide but am concerned about the spacing between the top bars.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There is a little bit if "wiggle room" in beespace. The gaps between the top bars in theory should be between 1/4" and 3/8". So at 1 1/4" spacing the top bar should be between 1" and 7/8". But I find you can get by with 3/4" and the nice thing about 3/4" is that it is the width of a one by... So if I were building them I would probably do 3/4" wide top bars because the one bys are already 3/4". The bottom bar is not that significant. A standard bottom bar is probably already about right (I think they are typically 3/4") but they could be as small as 3/8" and still work fine. Again, 3/4" is handy since it's the width of a one by. So I would make the top bar 3/4" wide and the bottom bar 3/4" wide because it will work and it's less cuts. I like a solid bottom bar (no groove for wax moths and small hive beetles to hide in). I prefer the bevel on the top bar and find a 45 degree angle on each side is the easiest to cut and be about the most effective. Plans for standard frames are here: http://beesource.com/build-it-yourself/dadant-type-frames/ and you could just make everything 1/8" more narrow and add the bevel on the top bar and leave out the grooves.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

ToeOfDog said:


> Brood box. The brood cell size dictates the size of the bees. That is the objective, natural sized bees. Who cares what size cells they make in the honey supers.


Natural size bees are those raised in 5.1 mm cells. Anything else is unnatural.


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## Peter McDowell (Jul 24, 2016)

Thanks for the input Mike. I'm going to build my own frames for the brood nest with a beveled top bar, no groove in the bottom bar and end bars that are 1.25" wide. 
Richard, I disagree with your statement. Natural size bees are those raised in natural size cells, the ones the bees create on their own. Not something we force on them, that is "un-natural"


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Peter McDowell said:


> Thanks for the input Mike. I'm going to build my own frames for the brood nest with a beveled top bar, no groove in the bottom bar and end bars that are 1.25" wide.
> Richard, I disagree with your statement. Natural size bees are those raised in natural size cells, the ones the bees create on their own. Not something we force on them, that is "un-natural"


You are exactly correct, natural size bees are those raised in natural size cells. It has been proven over and over and over for more then the last 175 years that bees naturally make cells that are 5.1 mm. All this small cell con game stuff came about because Lusby can not do high school math and totally murdered the historical data. The fact she can not do high school math is well documented in a publication that has been repeatedly sited on Bee Source. Bottom line is there may be reasons to use unnatural small cell combs, particularly if you are running Africanized bees, but do not think for a minute small cell is either natural or of the slightest help in controlling varroa mites. Both of those ideas have been totally debunked in the scientific literature.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> but do not think for a minute small cell is either natural or of the slightest help in controlling varroa mites. Both of those ideas have been totally debunked in the scientific literature.


 Same for 5.3 / 5.4 which most manufacturers still sell. I seem to recall that keeping bees in a hive is also just a tad unnatural.

p.s. "sited" and "cited" have slightly different meanings.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Richard Cryberg said:


> Natural size bees are those raised in 5.1 mm cells. Anything else is unnatural.


So a frame completely filled with 5.1 cells on artificially pressed foundations of foreign wax is more natural?
Nice to know.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

SiWolKe said:


> So a frame completely filled with 5.1 cells on artificially pressed foundations of foreign wax is more natural?
> Nice to know.


I thought this thread was about the commercial availability of narrow 'foundationLESS' frames? 

If Beeks are using no foundation and bees are drawing their own comb, isn't 'their selected' cell size about as natural as 'we' should expect? 

After 10 years running the same 'system' of beekeeping and conducting numerous inspections/observations, we've found that; Our foundationless Frames can often have multiple sized cells ....and that's just OK with us.....as long as its also OK with our bees 


We are foundationless, TF and have used all Mediums...since 2007. Our Frames 'naturally'  become more narrow with each passing year of use....


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

drummerboy said:


> Our Frames 'naturally'  become more narrow with each passing year of use....


How? Mine naturally become wider over the passing years, due to propolis buildup.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Easy....Annual scraping and cleaning of propolis, especially the ends and side bars....


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## Peter McDowell (Jul 24, 2016)

Mike, if you make the top bar 3/4" wide and the overall width of the frame is 1 1/4" then you will have a space between the top bars of 1/2". Will the bees not fill this with comb? Or will they leave it free. After initially purchasing boxes I ended up building my own. I always had trouble with the bees building comb between the top of one frame and the bottom of the one above. For my own boxes I reduced the height of the box to 6.5" down from 6 5/8". Since the frames are 6 1/4" high the spacing is now reduced to 1/4". This has eliminated comb between frames for me.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The top bar blank should be 19 X 7/8 X 3/4 and cut from straight grain white pine. The wedge should be cut precisely 1/4 inch deep and such that the foundation will be exactly centered in the mid-line of the top bar. The lugs should be cut so they are tapered to 5/16 inch thick at the end and 1/2 inch thick where the end bar attaches, a 17 degree angle is just about right. The end bar notches should be cut to leave exactly 16 13/16 inches for the foundation and the notches should be exactly 3/8 inch wide so the end bars fit properly. I cut top bars from white pine planed to 3/4 of an inch thick.

The bottom bars should be cut 3/8 X 3/8 X 17 17/32 inches for divided bottom bars, 3/4 X 3/8 X 17 17/32 for a grooved bottom bar. A small slice should be cut on each end of the divided bottom bars so they fit properly into the end bars. I cut bottom bars from scrap pieces of white pine left over from cutting top bars.

The end bars should be cut to the exact vertical size of the finished frame, 11 1/4 for Dadant, 9 1/8 for standard Langstroth, 7 1/4 for Illinois, 6 1/4 for Mediums, and 5 3/8 for shallows. I'm going to waffle on one item here by saying that the finished end bar should be exactly 1 1/4 inches wide, but in the process of cutting, you may want the blank to be wider so a propolis cutter can be made on one side of the end bar. The notch for the top bar should be cut 1/2 inch deep by 3/4 inch wide. the notch(es) for the bottom bar(s) should be cut 3/4 of an inch wide by 3/8 of an inch deep. If using divided end bars, two notches should be cut 5/16 wide with 1/16 of an inch between the notches. This is best done with a double stacked dado so both notches are cut at the same time.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Mike, if you make the top bar 3/4" wide and the overall width of the frame is 1 1/4" then you will have a space between the top bars of 1/2". Will the bees not fill this with comb?

Bees often bulge honey past the width of the top bar. It's not an issue. They will not fill it with comb. It is the gap between the combs. They do more of that with narrower gaps (like 3/16") than with wider gaps (like 1/2"). The ideal top bar width is probably 7/8" but 1" will do and so will 3/4". The spacing between the centers is the real issue. I've seen people use a bamboo skewer every 1 1/4" in a small "Warre' " type hive and it works fine but is not self spacing and in a hive that needs a longer top bar than the skewer, it would be an issue of supporting the weight.


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## Peter McDowell (Jul 24, 2016)

Thanks for the input. I am going to make some this winter.


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

"The bottom bars should be cut 3/8 X 3/8 X 17 17/32 inches for divided bottom bars, 3/4 X 3/8 X 17 17/32 for a grooved bottom bar. A small slice should be cut on each end of the divided bottom bars so they fit properly into the end bars. I cut bottom bars from scrap pieces of white pine left over from cutting top bars."
Since you went off the deep end FUSION POWER, I will provide some humor.
Here is the thing FUSION POWER: If your making your own woodenware, the top bar rests that are cut 3/8" deep x 1" will determine the width of the bottom bar. Your way over complicating things. Any cutting of the frames is going to be measured during your process to make it fit. Nothing is precise on wood as it contracts and expands. You give a measurement in 32nd of an inch and I will tell you, unless your saw blade is straight, your welded teeth on your saw blade are straight, just that will not measure 32nd of an inch. Since I do have dial calipers to set my table saw fence precisely .0003 it still doesn't matter. The reason being is because who on earth can set a table saw fence with that accuracy? The only way to be able to measure what your cutting is with a height gauge. Even if someone owns that the surface they are measuring on isn't going to be flat, so you can't even do that. Who owns a brand new tape measure that is calibrated too? Probably not anyone on here goes out and buys a tape measure every 3 months or so if they're using it on the job too. Measurement is just a number depending on your equipment and how much extreme you want to take it to. 
The way I make my foundation frames is different then anyone that builds on here. They work for my bees. Lets not get into such precise measurements.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

That is the beauty of beekeeping FD. You get to build it any way you want to.

To answer your critique, I am just that picky about measurements to ensure something works right. I actually work in 64ths of an inch when building frames. The thickness of a brood comb determines the width of the top bar and of the bottom bar, not some arbitrary measurement on my part. The bees know when it is the right thickness.

Sorry you can't catch a queen bee. I'm told they fly pretty fast. Are you moving your wings fast enough?


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