# Nature vs Nurture



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, touching on all the various topics in beekeeping about raising and buying a queen, all you wanted to know is how well your local mutt queens will perform.
Why don't you just ask, will a local mated well fed queen out perform the commercial bought average queen?
I think Mike Palmer? said or from his teaching that a well fed local queen is better than the pedigree queen. She will out perform a pedigree average one. It doesn't matter if the queen is a local or commercial one as long as she is well fed. What I did in my little queen bee experiment was to keep the best of the best well fed local queens. The result was compared to the commercial bought average queen. Because the local drones also play an important role in the make up of these subsequent queens and worker bees, you have to have an understanding of them. Are they coming from a bee association experiment or from the commercial operation nearby. Knowing that will help you decide if the local open mated queens are better than the commercial ones. My findings so far is that there are variation among them some queens are average, some good to excellent while some are worthless. I have to cull my queens to find the cream of the crop to head my production hives. Keep in mind that the average queen will mate with up to 24 drones or so. So the increase in production and temperament depends on the fitness of your local drone population and your queen bees genetics. Of course, picking a queen that lay from frame to frame full of broods will help with your production too. As for their temperament let's hope your local bee association keeps the docile ones and not the AHB nearby. Even for their temper I will culled for that as well. So where are the drones coming from for your F2... queens? Glad that we have a local association that only keeps the docile carnis that even the mites on them they will not scratch. Too docile for my operation. But crossing them with the Italians Cordovan will make a good local mutt queen that will continue to lay despite being in a dearth. She keeps on going! The other hives just dwindle away until the Fall flow again. I cannot wait for that long. Overall, a local mated queen is already conditioned to your environment and can produce amazing results. And if you don't like the southern queen then go get a northern queen or even a tropical Hawaiian queen. 
Does that make sense?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Well, if one can identify (and obtain) the stock they actually want, then it really is just as easy to use 'better stock' for raising queens as it is to use 'average stock'....it's the same procedure and takes the same amount of work.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Well I don't know about using mediocre stock, but from average stock?

Farrar once said that you can grow better queens from average stock, raised under ideal conditions, than you can from the best stock raised under less than ideal conditions.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Can you raise a "good" queen from mediocre stock if you have excellent rearing conditions?

Yes, you can get a "good" queen that way. But to get an "excellent" queen you need to start with at least average if not excellent stock and then get them well fed and well bred.


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## johnwratcliff (Feb 24, 2015)

Guys
If my hives make it thought the coming polar vortex and multiple feet of snow, I plan on raising my own queens for my own splits. With that being said, when one only produces ten queens at a time, do you really need as many nurse bees as most people talk about? I have 27 colonies and don't see a need to try to raise as many as some on this forum...for now at least. Can't I just use three or four frames of bees with a frame or two of pollen and honey? I may coop with some friends to raise some but I have to plan on just doing it by myself for now.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Beekeeping will always be a hobby for me but I will raise a few queens. You can buy your stock, I will always look for queens with VSH , hygienic behavior. If I get a great hive I will use that. Also I will use the great advice from queen rearing in the sustainable Apiriay .


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>With that being said, when one only produces ten queens at a time, do you really need as many nurse bees as most people talk about? 

You need a high _density_ of bees to get well fed queens. Whether that is a five frame nuc overflowing with bees or a full size hive overflowing with bees. It needs to be overflowing with bees. The five frame nuc overflowing will do fine for a few cells.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

marathonmedic said:


> ...Can you raise a "good" queen from mediocre stock if you have excellent rearing conditions?
> 
> We all want the queen that lays calm bees that never swarm, don't make burr comb, produce gallons of honey and can overwinter in Antartica with only 2 frames of honey for reserves...
> 
> ...


Mediocre stock raised in excellent conditions will give you the best queens in terms of health and good ovaries for longevity of egg production. As far as temperment, swarming, burr comb and propolis production, honey gathering and production, over-wintering survival, etc, there are other factors than how it was fed and cared for as a larva, such as genetics, environmental factors, and hive management procedures to name a few.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

marathonmedic said:


> my "mediocre" stock that I have now



What is it about your bees that makes them "mediocre"?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

marathonmedic said:


> If I take my "mediocre" stock that I have now (something that makes it through the winter with a tolerable disposition and disease rate) then graft those eggs/larvae into a very strong cell-builder hive, will I get more of the same "mediocre" queens or will I see an increase in production and temperament?
> Thanks.


Do you think your "mediocre" queens were poorly raised? If not, I can't see how a strong cell builder is going to give you any better performance than what you have already. If you think your "mediocre" queens were raised in less than ideal conditions (like a poorly stocked cell builder), then improving those conditions can only help.


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## BjornH (Nov 8, 2013)

It all about optimizing. Its easy to create good conditions to raise physically good queens. Next is to select the performance you need ( over winterin survival, hygien, disese resistans, temper) and the performance you want ie econimical values. So raising mutt queens in a good cellraiser and free mate her with drones from nearby hives wich survived at least one winter ( i do have winter nov- mar) will make a better queen. I have almost always bought virgin queen to ocasinally bring in new genetics to mate in my area. They will provide new drones and their workers and doughters will be partly adapted to my area ( and management). Its much easier when you dominate your area of course. Mass selection is the key today to bring our bees with us in the future. Lots of free mated queens to bring out all the genetic capasity our bees contains world wide. Ups, loong 'speech'


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >Can you raise a "good" queen from mediocre stock if you have excellent rearing conditions?
> 
> Yes, you can get a "good" queen that way. But to get an "excellent" queen you need to start with at least average if not excellent stock and then get them well fed and well bred.


I think Michael really hits the mark here with his "well bred". The only way to insure that a queen is well bred is to have your own mating apiary or do artificial insemination. For most of us that is not an option. No matter how great your bought queen is after a few generations most of your genes come from the "boys in the neighborhood"


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

dsegrest said:


> I think Michael really hits the mark here with his "well bred". The only way to insure that a queen is well bred is to have your own mating apiary or do artificial insemination. For most of us that is not an option. No matter how great your bought queen is after a few generations most of your genes come from the "boys in the neighborhood"


I can see how AI could be useful for trait isolation or to bring in new genetics through drone semen, but an AI definitely doesn't indicate "well-bred". Genetic diversity is critical to colony performance. It is why queens take the huge risk of leaving the to hive to mate, mate with multiple drones, have a high rate of gene recombination and have the internal mechanism to mix the sperm they received from the drones. Both Robert Page and Heather Mattila really drove this home at the EAS conference a few weeks ago.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I think Michael really hits the mark here with his "well bred". The only way to insure that a queen is well bred is to have your own mating apiary or do artificial insemination. For most of us that is not an option. No matter how great your bought queen is after a few generations most of your genes come from the "boys in the neighborhood"

I do not have my own "mating apiary". I do not do AI. I have very well mated queens. I COUNT on the "boys in the neighborhood" having good genetics. They are the ones surviving. Mostly I mean that they find enough drones to get mated well. But yes, I also would like good genetics. Queens reared at a time when there are few drones are usually not good queens.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I think Michael really hits the mark here with his "well bred". The only way to insure that a queen is well bred is to have your own mating apiary or do artificial insemination. For most of us that is not an option. No matter how great your bought queen is after a few generations most of your genes come from the "boys in the neighborhood"

I do not have my own "mating apiary". I do not do AI. I have very well mated queens. I COUNT on the "boys in the neighborhood" having good genetics. They are the ones surviving. Mostly I mean that they find enough drones to get mated well. But yes, I also would like good genetics. Queens reared at a time when there are few drones are usually not good queens.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I guess I don't think I've ever seen an apiary that has problems getting queens well mated. I think one would have to work hard in most locations to (assumimg good weather and flow...good conditions) fly more queens than there were drones available without trying (finding a bee free area and limiting the number of drones intentionally or something).


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Duplicate


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