# Definition of a nuc?



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Seems to me there is a awfully lot of variability in what folks consider nucs. I think it's important that customers ask their suppliers exactly what they are getting and just as importantly when to expect it to be ready. 
Given the fact that a nuc should be a step up from a package (and the price would reflect that) and to reasonably expect a honey crop from such a unit, here's what I believe a customer should expect....but maybe it's just me?
Five full sized, disease free deep frames mostly full of bees and brood in all stages with a new and actively laying queen and ample feed. To expect a northern US honey crop from such a unit it would need to be ready to transfer by mid May at the latest. One much later than that should be discounted accordingly. 
Is this what people expect? Is this what they are getting?


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## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Unless you live in the Northeast, and are raising queens from splits. I will split at least one week, maybe 2 weeks later than last year. That being said if the nucs are fed they should do well on the fall flow. I pulled old queens from hives on May 4th last year.


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

Jim. I totally agree with you. I sell exactly what I would want to buy, if it was me paying $150 for bees. I don't understand when someone sells a four frame nuc, and call it a five fame nuc, just because they stuck in an empty frame and foundation. If you are paying for five frame nuc, it should be five frames full of bees, brood, honey, and pollen.


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## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Nucs I sell will still be full of bees...just to clarify, but think it will be later this year.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Evidently there are those who cage the queen before the nuc is sold with the idea that she is at less risk during transit. That seems fine to me. The purchaser should be able to release her as soon as the frames and bees are installed in their new home. I don't think it qualifies as a nuc when the seller collects five frames with bees, brood and stores, then adds a new, caged queen and sells it in that condition. The buyer then is faced with the additional risk of the queen being a dud or unaccepted. One of the other reasons that a nuc is priced higher than a package....more risk has been taken by the seller.
Just my two cents.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Jim, I don't really have an opinion about this but wonder if you do. How long should the queen have been laying before selling a nuc? If you see a solid pattern of eggs or larvae or capped brood? Ideally, I suppose, it would be nice to wait until the first eggs laid have emerged as bees but for many operations i would think that would be impossible.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

beemandan said:


> Evidently there are those who cage the queen before the nuc is sold with the idea that she is at less risk during transit.


Interesting and perhaps true but isn't there also some inherent risk in caging and releasing or reintroducing and also the possibility the hive might sense a problem because of the resulting brood break?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

beemandan said:


> Jim, I don't really have an opinion about this but wonder if you do. How long should the queen have been laying before selling a nuc? If you see a solid pattern of eggs or larvae or capped brood? Ideally, I suppose, it would be nice to wait until the first eggs laid have emerged as bees but for many operations i would think that would be impossible.


I think long enough that she has clearly been accepted and settled. At least a week, maybe two? I've never sold 5 comb nucs but I have sold singles by the truckload and with those ALL of the brood has been laid by the queen. I really feel singles should be a minimum of 7 frames of brood by Memorial Day.....but again, maybe that's just me. I've heard accounts from time to time of people complaining that their nucs were a little late but, "hey, at least I got them." I can't help but wonder if some of those folks are being "worked" a little.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> Interesting and perhaps true but isn't there also some inherent risk in caging and releasing or reintroducing and also the possibility the hive might sense a problem because of the resulting brood break?


I would say yes...also the risk of emergency cells being started because the queen has been isolated. I re-queen many colonies each summer using push-in cages. The new queen remains under the cage for 4 days, and many of those colonies will start emergency cells.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

I was taught that a nuc should be 5 frames- 3 packed with [capped] brood and bees, 2 honey/pollen and a mated, tested queen (not an unknown in a cage) already introduced and accepted.

That's what I expect, and that's what I've been getting. It's a 'nucleus' hive all ready to go and just needs to be transferred to a standard hive before it explodes. Plenty of bees, plenty of brood and plenty of stores to prime it for the next brood cycle.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

From what I'm seeing in the Northeast, the new norm is four frames - not five. With prices going up like they are, I expect this trend to continue.

Adam


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> From what I'm seeing in the Northeast, the new norm is four frames - not five. With prices going up like they are, I expect this trend to continue.
> 
> Adam


Adam, we used to raise lots of 4 combers (a divided 10 frame deep) and they work but timing is critical as they grow out of them so quickly. My goal was always to have them transferred into full ten frame deep boxes by the 10th of May.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> Interesting and perhaps true but isn't there also some inherent risk in caging and releasing or reintroducing and also the possibility the hive might sense a problem because of the resulting brood break?





Michael Palmer said:


> I would say yes...also the risk of emergency cells being started because the queen has been isolated.


I would think so too....but there was a nuc producer who responded to a thread recently who insisted that he did so with great success. Seems like he was a relatively big operator.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> Is this what people expect? Is this what they are getting?


Yes, It is what I got from my supplier for the two that I bought a few years ago. Sadly, it looks like buyer beware in the bee business.


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## beecole (Nov 25, 2011)

I'm buying two six frame medium NUCs this year. To me, this is the only purpose for buying NUCs is to get LOCAL genetics from a beekeeper I know. I hope this will give them a better chance to survive despite my mistakes.
MY main flow is over at the end of May. If my supplier has them ready by May 1, I think I'll still be in good shape to be established before late fall.

I would fear that if I did not know the supplier, I could simply get a 2# package shaken onto a few frames of brood/pollen and honey.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

From a different thread:



Dominic said:


> I, and other local breeders, purposefully cage a queen before pick-up. My queens hatch in their nucs, where they are left a few weeks to mate. When it's time for pick-up, I inspect the nucs, and if the nuc is ready to be sold, I mark and cage the queen. This is done to protect the queen from being squished by the frames during transport.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> From what I'm seeing in the Northeast, the new norm is four frames - not five. With prices going up like they are, I expect this trend to continue.


Many of us in NOVA are selling 4 frame nucs and have been for quite some time- for many, the empty 5th frame of foundation is put in when the nuc is made up, so most of the time it is drawn out by the time the customer buys it- sometimes it is loaded with something- nectar, pollen or larvae. Also fits in the cardboard transfer boxes a little bit easier- and can help keep the nuc from starting swarm prep from the time you make it up to when it is ready for sale (about 2 weeks on average post queen install)

What I am finding very disturbing is a new norm of 3 frame nucs! Right now the ones I see advertised are mostly from commercial beekeeping suppliers- getting nucs from bees off of almonds. Doused with Fum b before sales. Yum... Ick...
I worry about any newbeek starting just 3 frames the rest foundation.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Kevin Jester transports hundreds of nucs each year, doesn't cage the queens and the several hundred he brought me only 3 lost queens. I think it depends on the competency of the beekeeper.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Maybe it has to do with what Jim lyon considers a nuc. TIME! Time to get acquainted and time to propolise up the frames so they don't shake around in transit.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

beemandan said:


> From a different thread:


I'm not very big, but I'm hardly the only one who does this. I've bought nucs from people who do this, and haven't had this problem, nor heard of others having it, although at first I used the larger nicot hair-roller type cages and would not recommend using them (they caused some problems, but not supercedure cell problems).

The #1 problem with this practice, in my opinion, is trust. I've heard many people complain about nucs they got (from other breeders) where the queen wasn't accepted or were even virgins. Where the allegations true? I have no idea. But it's hard to disprove, pretty much impossible. I now mark my queens by default, which helps build trust (as imported caged queens usually aren't marked), but if for whatever reason rumor spread that I wasn't being honest, I'd have no other option than to cease caging them in order to prove my claims. 'till then, though, I'd much rather prevent problems than fix them. Queen losses aren't fun to deal with, and so as long as unfounded rumors don't start circulating, I intend to keep caging my nucs' queens.



Michael Palmer said:


> I would say yes...also the risk of emergency cells being started because the queen has been isolated. I re-queen many colonies each summer using push-in cages. The new queen remains under the cage for 4 days, and many of those colonies will start emergency cells.


I'd have to say the situation isn't really the same. I don't know what your method is exactly, but a new queen usually implies a 24 orphanage period prior to the introduction of a caged foreign queen. If the queen was caged for a while, such as if it was bought from somewhere else, she probably shrunk some, and her pheromone output is probably reduced. And since she's new around, her smell is different from the old queen, and the nurses might not tend to her properly right away. It'll then take a while before her hormones get spread around the hive, especially if you are talking about a strong full-strength hive.

When caging a queen in her own nuc, you don't get that 24 hour orphaned period, and you don't get that transition period for the queen to get accepted, nor a transition period for her hormones to replace the old ones and get spread from bee to bee. And locally, nucs are never larger than 5 frames, rarely 5 frames, usually 4 and often 3 frames (brood and food combined). Spreading the hormones around is a much easier feat for the bees with but a handful of frames and a few thousand bees than with stacks full of frames and tens of thousands of bees.



Acebird said:


> Maybe it has to do with what Jim lyon considers a nuc. TIME! Time to get acquainted and time to propolise up the frames so they don't shake around in transit.


Well... we don't sell our nucs in wooden nuc boxes. Last year was mostly cardboard transport boxes, and this year we are trying plastic ones. Since the nucs aren't formed in their transport boxes, that implies that they were transferred and thus not all glued together. But even if I'd sell them in their original box, I'd still want to look through them beforehand to make sure I'm selling a quality nuc, thus I'd be breaking any pre-existing propolis. My frames may therefore be more likely to swing around than what is typically seen with larger operations, or overwintered nucs, though I think the new transport boxes are supposed to help with that.



camero7 said:


> Kevin Jester transports hundreds of nucs each year, doesn't cage the queens and the several hundred he brought me only 3 lost queens. I think it depends on the competency of the beekeeper.


Most of our customers don't run large operations. A great deal of them are beginners just starting out. It's not just the problem of surviving the transport, it's also that by the time they notice something's not right, it might be pretty late (ex: laying workers). For their own sakes, that's something I'd rather prevent.



Adam Foster Collins said:


> From what I'm seeing in the Northeast, the new norm is four frames - not five. With prices going up like they are, I expect this trend to continue.
> 
> Adam


I would also expect that trend to continue. It's a strategy you see everywhere, really, not just in beekeeping. When costs go up, you can either charge more, or reduce the format. Since I don't have any problem selling nucs, despite being relatively new on the market and offering bees much later than pretty much everyone else, I chose the later this year, and I can see I'm hardly the only one. I'd rather sell more nucs, and have less of a profit from each, personally. Plus it gives beginners more time to get used to beekeeping before having to deal with large and populous colonies.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Dominic said:


> Well... we don't sell our nucs in wooden nuc boxes. Last year was mostly cardboard transport boxes, and this year we are trying plastic ones.


Ah, I see your point on this one.

I don't see your point on this one:


> Plus it gives beginners more time to get used to beekeeping before having to deal with large and populous colonies.


A ten frame nucleus colony is not a large and populous colony. No beginner should have any problem having a larger nuc colony to start.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I see both 4 and 5 frame nucs for sale in this area.

One of the four frame people told me 1 year he went to a great deal of effort to raise his own queens for the nucs. No one so much as asked him his queen source that year - so now he gets his queens from California.

I am seeing increased use of queen cells in nucs - one would think at a minimum evidence of cell placement would be removed from the nuc and I like to imagine that all the bees in the hive are the offspring of the queen in the nuc. That is clearly not the case with cells where is eggs/larvae are seen, the nuc is shipped.

It is a crap shoot - you really need to know your supplier and ask questions.

Right now the major question is availability. If you've got product in a box with frames you can get away with calling it a nuc. Not all sellers would make good babysitters for your Grandma. If you are seeing something advertised as a nuc, and the price asked seems too good to be true, you best ask some questions!


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Jim - I have the utmost respect for your opinion, but I disagree slightly with you on this.

I start my nucs as early as it is possible for me to do, and I keep them until they are like what I would like to buy - both of those two dates are somewhat variable because of the weather. I know you realize that. 

I don't take deposits - I just put names in order on a list - first come, first served. Anyone can back out at any time up to and including pickup day - and there are people at the end of the list that hope they do. I tell the truth about what I am producing, and keep people informed by email of progress and schedule changes.

But when you come right down to it when one person buys something and another person sells it, and they both can see what the product is and agree on the price, and no one is being coerced - it's a fair deal. Even when people buy overpriced kinda crappy kinda weak 4 frame nucs. That's how much they just want some bees already!

Also as you know - often the main difference between a nuc that's kind of weak and one that's rockin' is 8 or 10 days - but customers want them *now!* They can't even really wait until Christmas morning. Figuratively speaking.

Here's the thing that would improve the quality and lower the price of spring nucs - if just about every beekeeper overwintered enough nucs to take care of their own losses if they are high and have a few to sell when losses are low to moderate.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

David, I don't disagree with anything you are saying, my OP was my opinion and an open ended request for other opinions. Yes, everything has a market value and if buyer and seller are satisfied, that's all that matters. My perspective and one based on a lot of experience, is what it takes to make a honey crop in our area of the northern US. As an example, in each of the past two years, probably 90% of our honey crop was made before the middle of July. In that scenario, a 4 comb nuc on June 1st would have resulted in a significant loss in honey production compared to a single hive full of brood and bees at the same date. Of course, if you are in an area with a reliable later flow the whole equation changes.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

True, but I think most people see a nuc as being an investment in future production more than as a source of an immediate honey crop - most of my customers don't have extractors. 

On the other hand I am keenly aware that I'm sacrificing honey production to sell nucs. The reason it works out as I see it is that nucs are a lot less work/$ than honey - and the work is done in April instead of the July heat. 

If I wasn't so lazy (and had more time) I would work them for honey and comb (which I could sure use) this year and sell them as overwintered nucs next spring - after I split them around April 1.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

David LaFerney said:


> Here's the thing that would improve the quality and lower the price of spring nucs - if just about every beekeeper overwintered enough nucs to take care of their own losses if they are high and have a few to sell when losses are low to moderate.


I am thinking that I am going to try this, if I can learn to [intentionally] raise queens (as opposed to just letting them get to the point of swarming and harvesting the swarm cells).



Jim Lyon said:


> My perspective and one based on a lot of experience, is what it takes to make a honey crop in our area of the northern US. As an example, in each of the past two years, probably 90% of our honey crop was made before the middle of July. In that scenario, a 4 comb nuc on June 1st would have resulted in a significant loss in honey production compared to a single hive full of brood and bees at the same date. Of course, if you are in an area with a reliable later flow the whole equation changes.


Here in central ME, I never expected a new hive, started from a nuc in May, to make a honey crop the first year...nor have I been able to so far. I figured I was doing well just to have them built up to a double deep with sufficient stores to get through the winter.


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## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Here in central ME, I never expected a new hive, started from a nuc in May, to make a honey crop the first year...nor have I been able to so far. I figured I was doing well just to have them built up to a double deep with sufficient stores to get through the winter.[/QUOTE]

Agree, and assume customers in my area do as well. A little extra fall honey to extract would be a bonus.


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## The Evil Chip (May 19, 2012)

winevines said:


> Many of us in NOVA are selling 4 frame nucs and have been for quite some time- for many, the empty 5th frame of foundation is put in when the nuc is made up, so most of the time it is drawn out by the time the customer buys it- sometimes it is loaded with something- nectar, pollen or larvae. Also fits in the cardboard transfer boxes a little bit easier- and can help keep the nuc from starting swarm prep from the time you make it up to when it is ready for sale (about 2 weeks on average post queen install)
> 
> What I am finding very disturbing is a new norm of 3 frame nucs! Right now the ones I see advertised are mostly from commercial beekeeping suppliers- getting nucs from bees off of almonds. Doused with Fum b before sales. Yum... Ick...
> I worry about any newbeek starting just 3 frames the rest foundation.


Funny that there are differences in local practices within the same Commonwealth! Here in tidewater the norm is a 5 frame nuc. I haven't heard of anyone selling 4 or 3 frames. Yet. I wouldn't sell them myself. You're talking new, inexperiemced beekeepers as customers and you want them to have an awesome hive. 

For me, the standard nuc is usually made as a walk away. Acclimated queen (in my case I don't look for queens- I look for young brood and eggs). 5 frames. All frames should be pretty much covered with bees, good to excellent brood pattern, 1 to 1.5 frames are homey and pollen. All the rest is brood. Frames can be a mishmash of what I have (all plastic or wood with plastic foumdation), but no old, nasty comb. Kind of a pet peeve for me: this is a product, not trash disposal.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> Even when people buy overpriced kinda crappy kinda weak 4 frame nucs. That's how much they just want some bees already!


But they also what it to survive. In their mind if you sell them an overpriced kinda crappy kinda weak 4 frame nuc they believe that it will survive based on your experience as a beekeeper.
My feeling is a nuc should be an established hive such that if you bring it home plop it down and don't touch it until fall other than adding boxes of frames it should flourish. Now, what has the greatest chance of being able to do that a 3,4, or 5 frame nuc? I realize this will be affected by location and timing.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Acebird said:


> I don't see your point on this one:
> 
> 
> A ten frame nucleus colony is not a large and populous colony. No beginner should have any problem having a larger nuc colony to start.



To beginners who have limited to no on-hand experience with working hives, bees can be pretty intimidating, despite their interest in them. Since population growth is exponential, the smaller the nuc, the larger the lag phase before rapid growth and, obviously, the longer it takes to reach full colony strength or even just to reach some of the steps in between. For example, a 3-frame nuc will require more time to fill a deep than a 5-frame nuc would, giving some extra time to learn about manipulations, identifying signs of swarming, assembling extra supers and frames, and so on (as many like to learn on the go). And I'm not saying a ten frame colony is large and populous, but a nuc should grow stronger than that in the season.

I'm not saying that beginners _need_ smaller nucs, though. While many recommend to start beekeeping as small as possible, I tend to rather think that the more bees one starts with, the greater the odds of at least _some_ of them surviving the first winter. But with things like the Flow Hive, I think that the demand for smaller nucs will increase, as there will be more people who will want some bees to pollinate their garden or to help "save the bees", without wanting to actually manage strong and populous hives nor harvest record honey yields.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Dominic said:


> without wanting to actually manage strong and populous hives nor harvest record honey yields.


Personally I see strong and populous hives requiring less management. It is the dinks that require so much attention and interventions. Once the hive gets to strong and populous most beekeepers don't intervene except to add or remove boxes. The critical timing and manipulations are when the hive is weak and vulnerable. So in my mind the bigger the colony is to start the better the chance is for the newbie getting it through the first years. A package would be the hardest to start with. So many things can go wrong.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

> there will be more people who will want some bees to pollinate their garden or to help "save the bees", without wanting to actually manage strong and populous hives nor harvest record honey yields.


But small hives do not stay that way, not if they are healthy, so people need to realize this before they even get started. Bees are not cute nor comfy nor sweet. They are stinging insects with their own agenda that does not match ours. They won't change their agenda--they haven't in thousands of years--so we have to acknowledge it and work around it. WE have to adapt to them, not the other way around. Cute little nucs snuggled between the flowers will NOT stay that way. They will grow and will need management to remain healthy. We do newbies a disservice when we do not explain this in uncompromising detail.

JMO

Rusty


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

double post


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Acebird said:


> My feeling is a nuc should be an established hive such that if you bring it home plop it down and don't touch it until fall other than adding boxes of frames it should flourish. Now, what has the greatest chance of being able to do that a 3,4, or 5 frame nuc?


In that case the initial size of the nuc is such a small factor as to be negligible. They are probably all doomed - if not this year then next.

Personally the nucs I sell are 8 frame medium starter hives - if you took one home and plopped a super of foundation on top of it it would almost certainly swarm within a few weeks - but in my apiary I have mating nucs started with a medium frame of brood and a cell that will probably be big strong hives next May. 

Negligence after the sale on the part of the buyer is unfortunate - but not my problem. But If you told me that was what you expected to do I would probably recommend that you seek another source. 

Sorry, no offence - but I'm in the camp that bees require regular management and intervention. I put a good bit of care and work into producing what I believe is a high quality product - and profit or not I would rather keep them myself than see them willfully neglected to death.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> Personally the nucs I sell are 8 frame medium starter hives - if you took one home and plopped a super of foundation on top of it it would almost certainly swarm within a few weeks


What technique due you suggest to the newbies that you sell 8 frame medium starter hives to so they can expand into the next box? How would that change if you had an endless supply of drawn comb?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> will grow and will need management to remain healthy. We do newbies a disservice when we do not explain this in uncompromising detail.


I agree - I think it needs to be clear that to expect any kind of success or reward from bees you have to become a beekeeper. Just having a hive of bees isn't likely to work out for long.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Acebird said:


> What technique due you suggest to the newbies that you sell 8 frame medium starter hives to so they can expand into the next box? How would that change if you had an endless supply of drawn comb?


I tell people to move 1/2 of the frames into a super and fill both boxes with foundation (or comb) - then to inspect and remove swarm cells within a week and every week there after until danger of swarming is passed. Same if you have comb. The difference would be that you are much more likely to make a honey crop if you have comb.


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

I am from the camp that I sell what I want to buy. I also agree with the idea that a nucleus colony is one with a functioning accepted laying queen (with her own capped brood). Just putting a queen in with resources is a package installation, not a nuc (IMO).

I sell five frame medium nucs. But if I were to buy a 5 frame deep nuc I would expect a similar composition with a different price:

2 frames solid brood
1 frame partial brood
1 frame mostly pollen and honey
1 frame honey
- lots of bees

for me the partially drawn or foundation 5th frame = .... a 4 frame nuc and not a 5.

When I sell my nucs I advise and fully expect the need for that nuc to be transferred to an 8/10 frame box within a day or so because they will be so chock full of bees and running out of space. But I don't sell 100's of nucs either. Therefore controlling the nuc sizes before pic up is feasible.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Beelosopher said:


> When I sell my nucs I advise and fully expect the need for that nuc to be transferred to an 8/10 frame box within a day or so because they will be so chock full of bees and running out of space.


How do you advise newbies how to expand into the next medium box?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Beelosopher said:


> I am from the camp that I sell what I want to buy. I also agree with the idea that a nucleus colony is one with a functioning accepted laying queen (with her own capped brood). Just putting a queen in with resources is a package installation, not a nuc (IMO).
> 
> I sell five frame medium nucs. But if I were to buy a 5 frame deep nuc I would expect a similar composition with a different price:
> 
> ...


I do pretty much the same thing but with 8 medium frames - so we both know that you could sell the exact same nuc 2 weeks earlier and it would be kind of mediocre. The Same nuc - and after the customer had it in their posession for those 2 weeks it would be identical. In one case they were sold a weak nuc and in the other a strong one. The only difference is the date of sale.

Strong, Early, Cheap - pick 2.


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

Acebird said:


> How do you advise newbies how to expand into the next medium box?


Not sure I understand your question. I think you are talking about expansion from the 5 frame medium nuc. If that is correct,:

1. I tell them to put the frames into an 8 or 10 frame medium first chance they get (that would give them 2 or 5 frames off the cuff to work into). 
2. Once they have it in there I tell them to add another med box on once they see the bees have the equivalent of 1-2 undrawn frames left, add a box. 
3. If the bees aren't moving up to draw comb in the second box and the frames below are drawn out, I tell them to pull a frame or two of capped brood from the bottom and put it in the next upper box in the center. And to replace the slot(s) with an empty frame(s) for them to redraw for brood. 



David LaFerney said:


> I do pretty much the same thing but with 8 medium frames - so we both know that you could sell the exact same nuc 2 weeks earlier and it would be kind of mediocre. The Same nuc - and after the customer had it in their posession for those 2 weeks it would be identical. In one case they were sold a weak nuc and in the other a strong one. The only difference is the date of sale.
> 
> Strong, Early, Cheap - pick 2.


I know what you are saying here (or think I do ). You are talking about building the nuc vs. what I sell though. Usually I am pulling from an 8 frame medium to make my 5 frame nucs (extra resources get redistributed). 

you could sell that nuc earlier, but for me that isn't the way I could do it because of how I get there. Right now I am a small timer so I build all my nucs and rear queens (grafting or notching). So for me I am starting with queen rearing 5 frame nuc boxes. Then once they graduate to a laying queen they go to 8 frames if needed. Once I see capped brood I know the queen *should be good. So I can't sell them early or I won't really know if I have a laying proven queen. 

I usually go from my 5 frame "light" queen rearing nucs into 8 frame boxs once the queens are out and laying. They go into 8 frame equipment if they build up quick, or pick up is delayed. I could use all 8 frame boxes but it is cheaper, and gives me more places to house queens for better queen rearing success rate if I use my queen rearing 5 frame boxes.






David LaFerney said:


> I'm in the camp that bees require regular management and intervention. I put a good bit of care and work into producing what I believe is a high quality product - and profit or not I would rather keep them myself than see them willfully neglected to death.


I am from this camp too. I basically am only trying to sell enough nucs to fund my beekeeping habit. I feel that this is good for me, and the bees. I had a guy who didn't read my nuc description (I wrote out what was included.). He thought I was selling deeps and not mediums. He went on like he would still buy them, but I happily took them back and sold them to the next guy.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Beelosopher said:


> Not sure I understand your question. I think you are talking about expansion from the 5 frame medium nuc. If that is correct,:
> 
> 1. I tell them to put the frames into an 8 or 10 frame medium first chance they get (that would give them 2 or 5 frames off the cuff to work into).
> 2. Once they have it in there I tell them to add another med box on once they see the bees have the equivalent of 1-2 undrawn frames left, add a box.
> 3. If the bees aren't moving up to draw comb in the second box and the frames below are drawn out, I tell them to pull a frame or two of capped brood from the bottom and put it in the next upper box in the center. And to replace the slot(s) with an empty frame(s) for them to redraw for brood.


Yuuup, just what I was thinking from #2 throw another box on. If they don't go up on their own do #3. No looking for queen cells, I don't know why there would be on an established nuc.


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

Acebird said:


> No looking for queen cells, I don't know why there would be on an established nuc.


this is a benefit of a *real* nuc. Not guaranteed, but much less a chance of this vs. a queen added to a package.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Beelosopher said:


> this is a benefit of a *real* nuc. Not guaranteed, but much less a chance of this vs. a queen added to a package.


Please educate me on why a strong nuc is less likely to become swarmy than any other hive - less likely to the extent that the buyer need not be concerned enough to check? I'm especially interested because last year I had a couple of them swarm a couple of days before the sale date. I assumed it was because they were extremely populous at the time, but apparently they also may have been deficient in *real* (ness?)

For that matter I've had mating nucs -started with a cell of course - swarm because I let them get too strong. Not *real* enough?

My ignorance on this seems to be pretty deep because even though I have not bought a package in several years I was under the impression that all other things being equal a package is LESS likely to swarm than a nuc/hive of overwintered bees. But I've been under the impression that ANY healthy hive can swarm during swarm season if it is strong enough. Please help me out here.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Yuuup, just what I was thinking from #2 throw another box on. If they don't go up on their own do #3. No looking for queen cells, I don't know why there would be on an established nuc.


Because if it's good and strong it can be on the edge of being swarmy when the customer picks it up - at which point it might completely ignore the box you throw on top. Then by the time you realize they aren't moving up they have moved up to the trees. The advice I give my customers (because they seek it btw) is in the interest of avoiding that - they can take it or not, but if they don't and their nuc swarms 8 days after they get it... It's sad, but I'm not losing sleep over it.


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## Spark (Feb 24, 2011)

For what some people charge for a nuc I can honestly say throwing a queen in a box with 5 frames and bees in April and selling them in May because she's been accepted and laying is not a nuc. I can buy a package, install in April and have a ten frame built out brood chamber by May for half the money and twice the bees. 

Salesman aren't beekeepers but like every business they have found a way to sell nucs.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Spark said:


> For what some people charge for a nuc I can honestly say throwing a queen in a box with 5 frames and bees in April and selling them in May because she's been accepted and laying is not a nuc. I can buy a package, install in April and have a ten frame built out brood chamber by May for half the money and twice the bees.
> 
> Salesman aren't beekeepers but like every business they have found a way to sell nucs.


That is not at all what I do, but part of the reason nucs are in demand like they are is because of all the bad press packages get. At least partly undeserved I think. 

If you did start a package in April, and you had 5 frames of bees and brood (on pristine comb I might add) in May, how would a nuc be better? Better queen? Then buy a better queen and sell the package queen - you can sell ANY queen in May, even if you told the buyer it's a terrible southern package queen. Maybe a nuc is better because of locally adapted bees? Horsefeathers - those bees will be long gone in 2 months - your magic queen is going to determine the genetics after that. 

Here's why I think packages are so craptastic in public opinion - because it just couldn't be my fault that my bees died.

I'm aware that not everyone shares my opinion on this. To say the least.


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## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

I've never made a nuc but contemplated a way to rotate comb out of old hives and that would be to early in the year, take 5 frames from a 3-deep hive and install a queen. Sell these. I would do it for swarm prevention, comb rotation, and getting a little money. I don't see why people would buy these for 150 when you can buy package for 96 here. I think I would sell for no more than 100 which is cheaper than a package and 5 frames (plus they are drawn out). is this reasonable or not?

I did this set up for a split the other day that I'm keeping and I could see doing that for a nuc/starter hive or whatever this would be.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

blamb61 said:


> I don't see why people would buy these for 150 when you can buy package for 96 here. I think I would sell for no more than 100 which is cheaper than a package and 5 frames (plus they are drawn out). is this reasonable or not?
> I did this set up for a split the other day that I'm keeping and I could see doing that for a nuc/starter hive or whatever this would be.


The definition is from the supplier, & if you don't get the memo, you gotta know what questions to ask. Reasonable if you are making your own queens., but if your buying them, one would be losing money. Why would a nuc be sold for less than a package? Nucs to me, are just as valuable (maybe more) in my apiary, than the buyers, so I try to hoard more than I sale. Full disclosure & don't sell a nucleus you wouldn't want to buy


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> Because if it's good and strong it can be on the edge of being swarmy when the customer picks it up - at which point it might completely ignore the box you throw on top. Then by the time you realize they aren't moving up they have moved up to the trees. The advice I give my customers (because they seek it btw) is in the interest of avoiding that - they can take it or not, but if they don't and their nuc swarms 8 days after they get it...


From a newbie perspective...

The newbie hopes he/she is buying a nuc from a beekeeper that is experienced. Has created the nuc in such a way that the nucleus colony has the best chance of survival for the first growing season. Overwintering is not part of that deal. If a nuc swarmed in 8 days I would feel that the beekeeper did not do something right. Most likely did not give it space when it needed it.
As a newbie I wouldn't expect to receive an overwintered nuc. Knowing what I know now I would want to know if it was an over wintered nuc because I would treat it as an overwintered hive not a nuc. I would think that an overwintered nuc is more valuable to the beekeeper than it would be to a newbie and I wouldn't expect it to be sold to a newbie. If you have too many and you want to sell it to another experienced beekeeper that would be fine. The experienced beekeeper will likely know it's greater value and make better use of it instead of screwing it up because of a learning curve.

Packages are cheaper, yes and they have a greater chance of failure. Most likely due to improper management and beginner mistakes. I have one coming so it will be something new for me to learn. Most likely it will require feeding.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Acebird said:


> From a newbie perspective...
> 
> The newbie hopes ...


"Newbies" are the ones that ask for and need advice on how to treat their new hives - experienced beekeepers probably know what to do.

I'm not going to label the people who don't have a clue and also won't take advice from someone with actual experience in keeping bees alive and productive in their area - the main requirement for being a nuc producer - however they might go about producing the nucs they sell. 

Anyway those poor folks probably just fell for some hogwash they read on the internet posted by someone who kills lots of bees.


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> Please educate me on why a strong nuc is less likely to become swarmy than any other hive - less likely to the extent that the buyer need not be concerned enough to check? I'm especially interested because last year I had a couple of them swarm a couple of days before the sale date. I assumed it was because they were extremely populous at the time, but apparently they also may have been deficient in *real* (ness?)
> 
> For that matter I've had mating nucs -started with a cell of course - swarm because I let them get too strong. Not *real* enough?
> 
> My ignorance on this seems to be pretty deep because even though I have not bought a package in several years I was under the impression that all other things being equal a package is LESS likely to swarm than a nuc/hive of overwintered bees. But I've been under the impression that ANY healthy hive can swarm during swarm season if it is strong enough. Please help me out here.


I think your first issue comes with reading vs. making an inference. I never said less swarmy. Let's clear this up for you:

1. I never said not to check, ace did.
2. I believe established nucs are far less likely to supersede vs. a package and a queen (based on my own an other local bee keepers anecdotal experience)
3. If you have a nuc that is loaded with swarm cells, I would offer you let them get, and stay too dense.

If your nucs are swarming you likely had them too dense. That is why I have mine ultimately in comfortably spaced 8 frame equipment, paring down to 5 frame dense nucs the day of pick up. This is why I pack my nucs up and recommend people install same day.

To be very clear for you I believe if you took the same commercial outfit and had them make 100 nucs the way I describe, and 100 packages from the same queen lines, you would have less supersedures from the established nucs after the sale. Here is why:

1. My style of nucs have proven layers and they have been accepted by their colony (their own brood is capped and queen cells are not being raised)
2. Packages, acceptance seems to be much lower from what I hear reported. Often times getting superseded as soon as the new queen starts laying. Then you lose a month waiting for a new queen to be raised, mated and hopefully laying.

So yes, to me a proper nuc is a big advantage over a package for the simple reasons above.

my .02 - please keep the change


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

We've gone pretty far afield here - sorry about that. But I think you probably can filter out a definition of nuc from this thread...

_Nuc aka Nucleus hive - a complete colony of bees (typically with 5 or fewer frames) which contains a minimum of a mated laying queen, some comb containing brood, some comb containing stores, and a complement of worker bees at least sufficient to support the growth of the hive during favorable environmental conditions._

That much is pretty standard, but it needs to be amended with something like...

Nucs can be produced in many ways From a small colony which overwintered as a unit To a small colony made up on the spot using a caged queen, hive resources, and bees taken from several different source colonies - and everything in between. All of them are nucs, and there is probably a willing market of buyers for the entire spectrum, but some will serve an intended purpose much better than others. It is important that the seller be honust about their product, and that the seller educate theirself about what they are getting, and the implications of the specific details. 

Buying a "nuc" without any more information is a little like buying a "car" with nothing more to go on. Making an assumption based on your personal expectation is likely to result in dissapointment.

How is that?


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

Spark said:


> For what some people charge for a nuc I can honestly say throwing a queen in a box with 5 frames and bees in April and selling them in May because she's been accepted and laying is not a nuc. I can buy a package, install in April and have a ten frame built out brood chamber by May for half the money and twice the bees.
> 
> Salesman aren't beekeepers but like every business they have found a way to sell nucs.


So what is a nuc to you? Overwintered only?

And what happens if that package you bought rejects the queen? Now you have lost a month on that package hive while you wait for a new queen (if the old queen started laying and was subsequently superceded). If she was not accepted outright you have a hopelessly queenless hive.

In the former scenario you now get to take on more risk if the newly raised supersedure queen:
1. Doesn't end up returning to the hive
2. becomes a drone layer

If you are lucky she made it back and start laying (they may supersede her again). Statistics suggest about 60-70 percent of raised queens make a successful run of it. I had slightly better success with mated queen raising last year, but I think that number is pretty accurate. 

For the above reasons I would disagree with you about what the value of a laying nuc is. When you buy a laying nuc, you are lessening many of the risks above. That is what people are paying for. If you prefer to take on those risks that is fine too.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Beelosopher said:


> ...So yes, to me a proper nuc is a big advantage over a package for the simple reasons above.
> 
> my .02 - please keep the change


Fair enough. Sorry, but when someone refers to their product as the real deal it always sounds to me like they are implying that anything else is not. I think you mentioned that someone implied they were getting short changed because your nucs were mediums - when they really just should have paid more attention.

We are apparently typing at the same time here - it sounds like it gets your back up a bit when someone implies that only an overwintered nuc is "real." 

And I agree - a healthy overwintered nuc can build up by May and produce $200 worth of honey plus valuable comb If well managed. 

I overwinter several every year, but I'm sure not going to just sell them for $150 or so in April. To me they would be worth the value of the queen, the frames, the brood, the bees, the box they came in, my work, the comb, the stores at the time of sale PLUS the value of the lost opportunity to produce a honey crop. They would have to be pretty danged expensive relative to the market for nucs. Unless they sold after the honey flow.

Does anyone really sell overwintered nucs? If so I wonder when, and for how much?


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> Fair enough. Sorry, but when someone refers to their product as the real deal it always sounds to me like they are implying that anything else is not.


I understand where you are coming from. I certainly wasn't saying I was the only one raising *real* nucs, or that mine are a better product than others can make. I do believe my are of the highest quality, but others can and do achieve this too. My point is a proper nuc has a big advantage over a package or a non laying "nuc". Like you said you have to ask questions so you know what you are getting.



David LaFerney said:


> I think you mentioned that someone implied they were getting short changed because your nucs were mediums - when they really just should have paid more attention.


I only meant that if the customer is unhappy with something I am going to sell them, I would rather not sell it. I wasn't saying he should know my product is the best lol. 

I think the guy who didn't read the "5 frame medium nuc" part my nuc description thought he was getting a killer deal based on my description of what is included on each frame for the price. Obviously all things equal a 5 frame nuc in a med configuration should cost less than a 5 frame deep nuc. Since he believed it was a deep configuration I am sure the price was great for what I had offered.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

David LaFerney said:


> Does anyone really sell overwintered nucs?



No. Far too valuable to sell anywhere near market value.


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

AstroBee said:


> No. Far too valuable to sell anywhere near market value.


I agree with astrobee, they are far to valuable, they would be the current season's (production hives, breeding stock, etc.)



David LaFerney said:


> We are apparently typing at the same time here - it sounds like it gets your back up a bit when someone implies that only an overwintered nuc is "real."


I think we are co-typing lol. I don't get upset about how people sell their nucs. I do consider the term "nuc" is often misused by my definition of what a nuc *should be*. Does that make me right? Nope  However it is what I utilize to differentiate in the value of a nuc. 

I do ask questions if I am buying though and think there is a huge difference in what I call a "real" nuc and what is sometimes sold. There is place in the market for both types of nucs though - you do need to ask the seller though.

I love raising the bees though, could care less about honey extraction (so why buy a nuc that isn't a laying nuc). 



David LaFerney said:


> I overwinter several every year, but I'm sure not going to just sell them for $150 or so in April. To me they would be worth the value of the queen, the frames, the brood, the bees, the box they came in, my work, the comb, the stores at the time of sale PLUS the value of the lost opportunity to produce a honey crop. They would have to be pretty danged expensive relative to the market for nucs. Unless they sold after the honey flow.
> 
> Does anyone really sell overwintered nucs? If so I wonder when, and for how much?


I agree on all the above. Selling your overwintered is like selling your next generation stock. Not bad for you if you have a ton of surviving nucs and no need to grow. Even so I typically end up hoarding them.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

David LaFerney said:


> Does anyone really sell overwintered nucs? If so I wonder when, and for how much?


I do sometimes. I use them for places to put excess bees from my production hives that look too strong for the time of year. So usually starting in March I'll take frames of bees and brood from strong hives and help the weaker over wintered nucs. I'll keep doing that until around the middle of April when I'll sell any that I didn't need. I had 34 or so hives that included 10 over wintered nucs. I had 4 that I didn't use this spring so I sold them for $150 each.

I have my current bee yards max'd out. In other words I get the same excess honey no matter how many more hives I put there. I'm not retired so I have limited time to find and deal with more yards right now. Some years I don't have extra nuc's, but in good years like this I'll sell extras.


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

beedeetee said:


> So usually starting in March I'll take frames of bees and brood from strong hives and help the weaker over wintered nucs.


If I have overwintered nucs that need help, I don't use them for my next years queen rearing and production. I usually go the other way, weak hives/nuc's resources get split up to start new hives/nucs with queens I make from the stronger hives/nucs.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Beelosopher said:


> If I have overwintered nucs that need help, I don't use them for my next years queen rearing and production. I usually go the other way, weak hives/nuc's resources get split up to start new hives/nucs with queens I make from the stronger hives/nucs.


I don't either. The 6 that I "helped" are now successful double deeps and will be used for honey production. I'm using other hives for grafts and cell builders. It's just that when I need to decide which nucs I want to start adding brood and bees to, I chose the weaker ones. They all looked pretty good this spring, but some had less bees and so I used them first.


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## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> The definition is from the supplier, & if you don't get the memo, you gotta know what questions to ask. Reasonable if you are making your own queens., but if your buying them, one would be losing money. Why would a nuc be sold for less than a package? Nucs to me, are just as valuable (maybe more) in my apiary, than the buyers, so I try to hoard more than I sale. Full disclosure & don't sell a nucleus you wouldn't want to buy


How am I losing money if I buy a queen for 36, give away five frames ($10 to replace) for some frames I was going to get rid of anyways (for a price of 100)?


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