# OSBN - Opening the Sides of the Brood Nest



## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Starting to see reports of swarms in the southern states of the US, so if you live there consider OSBN. 

Opening the Sides of the Brood Nest is a great Swarm Prevention method for Beekeepers who don't have spare drawn comb.

Here is a quick summary of the method.*

Opening the Sides of the Brood Nest

Main points -*
During Swarm Season:


Place undrawn frames on the outer edges of the Brood Nest.
Trigger wax making with a Partial Foundation/Foundationless Frame.
Maintain at least 2 undrawn frames in every box throughout Swarm Season.
Move honey frames up and out of the Brood Box(es).
Can start as soon as Drones are being raised.
 * This assumes that the hive is looking nearly full, healthy and has a few frames of honey stores.


*Steps:*

Start 3-4 weeks before your usual Swarm Season (or when Drone Brood is being raised):


Move each outermost frame from a Brood Box up into the middle of a New Box (of Undrawn Frames), placed directly above the Broodnest. (So that 2 Old Frames have moved up.)
Insert a New Frame (Partial Foundation or Full sheet of Foundation) on each outside edge of the Broodnest of the Brood Box. So that Brood frames are only on one side of each New Frame. (2 New Frames inserted, at least one Partial Foundation initially, the other can be a Full sheet of Foundation.)
Check the Hive in 2 weeks and repeat steps 1-2 if comb has been at least partially drawn on the New Frames in the Brood Box. (So that 2 Old Frames are moved up, 2 New Frames inserted into the Brood Box.) You will now have 4 Old Drawn Frames that have been moved up into the New Box.
Check again in 2 weeks. The New Box should now have comb getting drawn out. Repeat steps 1-2 if needed.
Throughout Swarm Season ensure that there is at least 2 Undrawn Frames in each Box. This is to maintain Wax Making by getting the young bees to draw out new comb. (These Frames can now all be full sheets of Foundation.)

For more details see:
http://daveybees.wikidot.com/openingthesides

If you have tried OSBN and have photos or would like to share your results, please feel free to do so in this Thread.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

When using a frame of Partial Foundation to trigger wax making, I suggest making the Foundation into a wedge shape like this, this keeps a large area in the middle for worker size comb. The gaps on the sides are usually filled with drone comb:











The off cuts can then be used in a second frame like this:










When using Plastic Foundation, for best results make sure they are wax coated.


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

Hi Matt

couple of questions
1- Do you find this technique to be sufficient or do you use it in conjunction with other methods to prevent swam, on stronger hives?
2- Do you feel this reduces the honey production as some resources are spend for wax building?
Thanks
DP


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

1. No other methods are used. The only thing I haven't mentioned is that I winter in a single Deep. 2 Deeps are kept for Brood Boxes for the warmer half of the year.

2. This method is for Beekeepers who don't have spare drawn comb, so any honey crop is good, but find I get a larger honey crop with this method. Obviously if you have drawn comb the bees can get more honey.

I used crush and strain for years, so rarely had spare drawn comb. Since using this method the honey crop is as much as double what I used to get. This is because the bees are drawing comb 4 weeks before I was previously putting on a box of Foundation. (Around the first week or 2 of swarm season.)

This year was good.
My largest hive (wintered as a single Deep) drew out, filled and capped over 40 Deep frames! (So the hive got to 5 Deeps.)
A 5 frame Deep Nuc drew out, filled and capped 25 Deep frames. (Hive got to 3 Deeps.)

Previously when wintering with 2 Deeps and using other methods I was only getting 1-2 Deeps of honey.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

With cutting Plastic Foundation, some suggest scoring the plastic with a knife or hive tool and then putting the foundation on a straight edge where you want it break off and then snapping it off.

I have also used Tin Snips to cut it, others use a Jigsaw.

Lastly a warning about using a Circular Saw, some have said the plastic can shatter, especially with the larger teeth. So the more teeth and the smaller they are the better. One guy also said he turns the blade around so it runs backward.

Remember to coat the Plastic Foundation with wax. It is drawn out much better and quicker when it is coated with wax.


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

Matt
I have 10 Snelgrove boards and that is what I have been using, this year I have 14 hives I like to use your technique on four of them.
All my hives are two deeps and then I put my medium super on top (I have drawn frames in the supers). Do you recommend I put just two cut out frames on either side of the first brood box or each brood box should have its own cut out frame, total of two or four cut out frames?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

deepster said:


> ... Do you recommend I put just two cut out frames on either side of the first brood box or each brood box should have its own cut out frame, total of two or four cut out frames?


Hi Deepster,

Only one Partial Foundation is needed per Brood Box. It is used to trigger Wax Making.
The frame on the other side of the Brood Nest can be a Full Sheet of Foundation.
So a total of two Frames with Partial Foundation in a Double Deep.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Does this work in Northern, cold climates, like Maine, or New Hampshire?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

username00101 said:


> Does this work in Northern, cold climates, like Maine, or New Hampshire?


I believe so.

If concerned about cold temperatures, the Inner Cover can be left on the Brood Box and the New Box put on top of that. So that the Inner Cover is inbetween the boxes. The bees can still access the frames moved up into the New Box via the hole in the Inner Cover, but not have to heat up a larger area. It helps to scratch any capped honey on the frames that are moved up into the New Box, to encourage the bees to empty out those combs and build new comb on the foundation.

Also, if you have a strong initial flow from Maples then you may need to use empty Drawn Comb for the New Frames instead. With those frames, still cut the bottom corners of the Comb off to encourage Wax Making.


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## roddo27846 (Apr 10, 2017)

deepster said:


> Matt
> I have 10 Snelgrove boards and that is what I have been using, this year I have 14 hives I like to use your technique on four of them.
> All my hives are two deeps and then I put my medium super on top (I have drawn frames in the supers). Do you recommend I put just two cut out frames on either side of the first brood box or each brood box should have its own cut out frame, total of two or four cut out frames?


How, exactly, are you using the Snelgrove Boards? Are you making vertical splits, or doing something else?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Please keep to the topic of Opening the Sides of the Brood Nest for this thread.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

How large do the spaces need to be?

Also - does it matter where the space is?

Can I drill a big hole in the middle of a foundation? Would that work?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

username00101 said:


> How large do the spaces need to be?
> 
> Also - does it matter where the space is?
> 
> Can I drill a big hole in the middle of a foundation? Would that work?


1. Technically any hole large enough to violate bee space will do. But I would go for at least a third of a frame. As initially bees will take wax from existing comb to build the new comb instead of making the wax. It takes a few days for wax making to start.

2. It doesn't matter where the hole is on the frame.

3. It would need to be a large hole. Remember it is usually filled with Drone comb, so that is why I put it on the bottom corners.

It's not difficult to score plastic foundation with a knife or hive tool and snap off the corner.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

What do you do if the brood nest is larger than 1 deep box?

Do you need to add a hole on either side of the brood nest in every box?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

If the Brood Nest is across 2 Brood Boxes then I would do OSBN in both boxes. You may wish to only do it on one side instead of both sides. It depends on if the hive is really full of bees.

I check every 2 weeks for convience, that is using Deep frames. If you use Medium frames or only open up one side of the Brood Nest, you would need to check weekly instead.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

So the ideal time to start OSBN is when the hive is fully loaded with bees, and the weather is warm enough to warrant removing frames of honey adjacent to the brood nest without having to worry about starvation or stress?

Is that correct?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

As a guide: 
I would wait until the bees are covering at least 90% of the frames. 
(ie. 9 frames of bees in a 10 frame box.)

50% or more frames having some Brood in all stages. 
(ie. 5 frames with Brood in a 10 frame box.)

At least 25% of frames with mostly capped honey or nectar.
(ie. 2.5 frames in a 10 frame box.

If you see 2/3 Brood and 1/3 Honey/Nectar then it is getting urgent.

I don't feed during swarm season as there is ample nectar and pollen coming in (that is why it is swarm season.) But if somehow the hive has over 90% bee coverage, but has little food, then feed them. They won't draw much comb unless there is ample nectar and pollen coming in.

The day time temperatures should be warm enough for the bees to be able to break from the cluster. This allows them to empty out the frames that have been moved up into the new box. Also helping to simulate a nectar flow, if there isn't one. Especially when starting 3 weeks before your normal swarm season.


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## karenarnett (Mar 25, 2012)

Questions for Matt:

I have a real healthy hive that I'm trying to keep in three medium boxes with a queen excluder above. Hoping they aren't too cramped in that amount of space. So I wondered what you think about pulling capped brood up above the excluder and adding foundation plus drawn comb (judicious combos) in its place, as a variant for opening the brood nest. We're having extended cool and rainy weather in SW Ohio, so while there is nectar, the bees have been limited in getting out to it. So I've been cautious about giving them much to draw out , with the demands of brood to feed and limited opportunities for gathering. Meanwhile, the population is really building up. Seems like getting some of the capped brood out would be the best way for opening the brood nest and having frames up above that will be great for honey storage once the bees emerge. Thoughts/recommendations?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Hi Karen,

3 Medium Boxes should be enough for the Brood Nest. I don't have an issue with putting brood above a Queen Excluder, except that Brood Frames should be placed in the middle of the box directly above the Brood Nest. It does help to get bees to move into a box above the Excluder.

BUT the issue with putting a Brood Frame above an Queen Excluder is that the bees still see it as a Brood Frame. So they will put pollen in it and often leave a dome shape of open cells or even empty cells for the queen to lay in, but of course the Queen can't get to those cells.

With OSBN your focus is on making space on the sides of Brood Nest (because it is Swarm Season).
You want to make sure the Queen has space to continue to lay eggs and that a good percentage of Open Brood is maintained.
This is to stop the Brood Nest from shrinking or getting back-filled with nectar.

So first priority is to move frames that are just nectar/honey up and out of the Brood Nest. (Especially the bottom 2 Mediums).
If all frames have some brood on them, then move up the ones with the least amount of brood.

Once plentiful nectar is coming in, comb building can happen quite quickly.


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## karenarnett (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks Matt. Those frames I pulled up had primarily capped brood with almost no open brood. It will be interesting to see how that works out - hopefully the queen will have enough new space down below to not feel pulled to those higher frames. I understand that the newly emerged bees do a lot of wax building before becoming field bees, so there should be a lot of population for drawing comb before long.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

karenarnett said:


> Thanks Matt. Those frames I pulled up had primarily capped brood with almost no open brood. It will be interesting to see how that works out - hopefully the queen will have enough new space down below to not feel pulled to those higher frames. I understand that the newly emerged bees do a lot of wax building before becoming field bees, so there should be a lot of population for drawing comb before long.



Please keep us updated on how this works out for you this season. I'm in a similar climate and i'm curious to know if this method will work.

I lack drawn comb.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Yes, Karen please give an update of how it goes.

Would love to hear from others who have tried out OSBN as to how it went for them as well.

As I've said previously, this season my largest hive (wintered as a single Deep) drew out, filled and capped over 40 Deep frames! (So the hive got to 5 Deeps.) And I've got an Autumn (Fall) crop from them as well.

A 5 frame Deep Nuc drew out, filled and capped 25 Deep frames. (Hive got to 3 Deeps.)

Previously when wintering with 2 Deeps and using more traditional methods I was only getting 1-2 Deeps of honey.


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## karenarnett (Mar 25, 2012)

Amazing amount of comb drawn! Wondering: was all the honey/nectar for wax production taken from early nectar, before the main flow? Or with supplemental feeding?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I actually pull brood up to bait boxes and also to make space in the brood nest.
The bees did this in my three medium ten frame set up.








They did this in about 21 days to the two frames I put in the brood area. They drew these even though they have plenty of empty comb in lower boxes that they could have layed brood in. They apparently don't like open space in their main brood rearing area. I have had brood in supers when I manage this way which I move down later in the year but that could be due to small flow and them never making so much honey that they had to drive they queen down.
Cheers
gww


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks Gww, yes the bees do NOT like having a hole within the Brood Nest or directly beside it. They will make it a high priority to fill it in with comb.
I prefer removing frames directly beside the Brood Nest because it has the least impact on the Brood Nest.

Karen, no feeding at all. It was all from 5-6 weeks of Swarm Season, a lull of about a week and then 6-7 weeks of Main Flow. Swarm Season is also a flow!

These hives are in an Urban area so there is a variety of plants flowering most of the year.

I started OSBN 3 weeks before our normal Swarm Season. (But got a call from a nearby town to collect the earliest Swarm ever, only a week later).
The season was bit drier than usual so the bees could forage most days.

Added a Box of Foundation (10 Frame Deep) about every 3 weeks.

Checking 2 weeks after adding every Box I was typically finding around 70-80% of the frames drawn.
So would then made up another Box of Foundation and put it on within a week.

Basically did OSBN on the top 2 boxes (Supers were treated the same way) each time that a New Box was added.
So 2 Drawn Frames from each box were moved up into each New Box (4 Drawn Frames).


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

mattd....


> I prefer removing frames directly beside the Brood Nest because it has the least impact on the Brood Nest


I don't contest this. I will say that, being all foundationless, pulling actual brood up to bait empty boxes does get the bees started out right on drawing good strait pretty comb. They may do just as well with honey frames but I know they do well with brood frames. 
Cheers
gww

ps The comb in my earlier picture, those frames were inserted about two weeks earlier then the earliest swarm I have ever known about here.


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## Hayden01 (Jun 22, 2015)

This is very interesting to me as I am in deep South Alabama (almost Florida/Georgia). I would like to overwinter in single brood boxes the use deeps as the brood nest expands and for honey storage. I caught my first swarm on Feb 28th this year and my first one last year was on Feb 27th. So using those dates, i'm guessing I should start this practice the first part of Feb? I don't have a lot of drawn comb right now either as I keep trying to expand my numbers.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Hi Hayden, yes I would recommend you prepare to start OSBN 3 weeks before the start of your usual Swarm Season. So the first week of February for you. Some hives may not be strong enough to start at that time, but you will catch the strong ones in time to prevent them from going into Swarm mode.

Getting the hive back into a Single Deep is another issue that I am dealing with right now. We didn't have our usual Summer Dearth as it was quite wet this year. So my hives have bigger populations than usual at the moment.


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## Hayden01 (Jun 22, 2015)

Thanks matt. I had gotten very frustrated with my early spring management practices and this has given me hope for next spring. This winter I will make up the extra deep brood boxes with the foundation cut and hopefully be able to save some swarms from happening.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I have been doing final extracting before winter and found one of the plastic Partial Foundation Frames with the Wedge Shape that was shown towards the start of this thread.

This photo is a close-up of the right side of the Partial Foundation Frame after comb has been drawn out on the Wedge Shape Foundation (and then extracted).
Notice that the foundation-less part has been drawn as Drone Comb and the plastic foundation drawn as Worker Comb.
Also, note the darker area where brood has been raised. The amount of area used for Drone Brood is not large.


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

It's impossible to say if a swarm would have developed had one not done OSBN but it has proven itself to me. Some queens will swarm no matter what but my 'normal' queens don't when I open the brood nest. I never, ever reverse the boxes leaving plenty of space BELOW the nest, and add supers early to give headroom. My Biggest mistake is not taking the comb honey from the partial frames the bees make. That won't happen again. 
Lee


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Being foundationless we use osbn by default. The first frame added in the season invariably gets drawn to drone comb. As an experiment I put a super on (with honey as feed in early spring as they were getting low) with 50% drone comb, thinking that with so much they would not need any more. When they started using it I osbn. Sure enough they drew beautiful drone comb.....
We are just getting in to swarm season now.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks Grins.

Amibusiness, yes I have found that the first comb that is drawn is usually Drone comb. A Nuc may not, but anything like a full size Deep or larger will focus on raising Drones early in the season.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Weather has been quite terrible in the northeast.

What will happen if I do OSBN when they're already starting to make empty queen cups?

Is that too late?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Bees will always make queen cups, regardless of if they are wanting to Swarm or not.
It seems to be a "just in case".


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

In terms of too late for osbn to be effective at reducing swarm impulse: I had a colony with eggs in queen cells would have swarmed on April 29th, which is too early for us this cold spring. I mushed the cells and osbned top box. I also pulled last years honey out of the top box (deep on bottom, medium above, in this case) and used it to "checkerboard" (with only about 4 frames of honey in ten frame) a new super on top. No swarm from them yet and I am late again getting back to them. Weather has been cold and schedule didn't allow.... So in short: yes osbn will help now. And it's not too cold in a normal spring colony to have a hole in the side of the brood nest in upstate NY. So far I have avoided adding a hole in the middle of the brood nest in any but the biggest colonies due to the unpredictable weather / temps. Go for it!


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Is it just a single hole sufficient to stop the swarm ?

You had mentioned you opened a "hole" .


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

The point of putting in a frame of Partial Foundation is to create a Hole beside the Broodnest. This is to trigger Wax Making because the bees want to fill the Hole with comb ASAP.

Only 1 Partial Foundation frame is needed for this, the other side of the Broodnest can get a full sheet of Foundation. A frame of Foundation is also really a Hole beside the Broodnest but can get ignored because it's just within bee space. A frame of Partial Foundation doesn't get ignored because of the larger Hole.

With Supers, I used to Checkerboard Foundation with Drawn Comb in the Supers in the past, but I don't do that any longer. I found it caused a couple of issues. One being fat and thin comb. But the other was that the bees were less focused on building comb on specific frames, it's a bit haphazard. I think due to too many options or even demoralisation.

It works better to have at least 4 drawn frames together, in the middle of the box.

So I don't give them any more than 2 frames of Foundation to work on in a box (except of course in the top Super).

With adding Supers, I basically do the same as OSBN on the existing top 2 boxes, each time that a New Box is added. So Supers are treated in the same way as Brood boxes.

2 Drawn Frames from each box are moved up into a New Top Box (2x2 Drawn Frames). So the top box has the 4 drawn frames all together in the middle of the box.

Your focus should be on getting the 2 frames of Foundation drawn in each of the lower 2 boxes. Not in the top box. Frames drawn in the top box are a bonus, but are not your focus.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Lingo: I am hopeful that we can get Walt Wright's term for Checkerboarding to stick; meaning alternating drawn comb with capped honey. Maybe we need to coin a term like "alternating" when we refer to foundation(less) mixed with comb in a box so we can save Checkerboarding as a technical term as Walt used it....
MD I agree alternating in the supers often gets very funky. I would not expect them to draw well too far out of the brood nest in any part of the season.
Osbn does get comb drawn before white wax shows up so is effective at changing a colonies direction in early spring already....


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Agreed, Checkerboarding should only be with Drawn Comb and Honey.

Alternating Foundation is a good term for what I was describing. Have seen it referred to as Checkerboarding by some, so was wanting to be clear. 

So to restate with better lingo: 
I don't recommend Alternating Foundation.

(I miss having discussions with Walt, I learnt a lot from him.)


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

Hey Matt- Can this system be adapted using a single brood box with a super over using a queen excluder to keep the queen in the lower box? What I'm doing instead is to take a brood frame out and give it to a smaller colony instead of adding a second brood box. I am using partial frames in the deep. The flow hit and they are starting to backfill. When the flow is on do you see a problem in removing all of the honey in the brood box? I usually leave them one or two frames.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Yes, you can run it as a Single Deep with a Queen Excluder. Once the Main Flow is on I'm not too concerned about the Broodnest.
So yes, remove all frames that are completely honey or nectar from the Brood Box and if possible replace with empty drawn comb or partially drawn comb. Then put on the excluder.
From then on I focus on making sure that I have 2 frames of Foundation in the top 2 Supers (Deeps).

You actually want the Broodnest to be reduced from now on, as you don't want a large population in the Summer. Especially if you have a dearth as they will need more resources to support them.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

I'm quite curious to see how the colonies will react to OSBN.

I've now seen convincing evidence that this method holds promise.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

The bees want a complete the Broodnest before they swarm, this is typically the whole Brood Box they are currently in. This includes completing capped honey around the top and sides of the nest.

Fixing the hole you create beside the Broodnest is their first priority before swarming.

So OSBN helps to prevent the Broodnest from being completed.


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## Trin (May 6, 2020)

I have a few questions. If I simply put an empty frame with a starter strip next to open brood am I gambling that they might cross comb build rather than build out straight comb?

Also I think I read somewhere here that putting a top cover over the brood chamber rather than a queen excluder might work to keep the queen out of supers.

So the triangle foundation is to cause them to readily build comb, or as some have put it get the bees into comb building mode. So starting with triangle comb and then switching to starter strips might work?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Hi Trin,

A starter strip can be used, but early in Swarm Season it will usually be drawn out at Drone Comb. Cross comb is always a possibility with starter strips.
I prefer to use at least 1/3 of a sheet of Foundation for starter strips.

Don't know about using an inner cover as Queen Excluder. Frames of capped honey usually work to stop a queen moving up, unless there is no Drone comb in the Broodnest.

The Wedge shape (triangle) Partial Foundation is to trigger wax making early in Swarm Season, before the time that bees would usually start wax making. The shape is to reduce the amount of Drone comb on those frames, keeping worker comb in the middle of the frame.

Always have drawn comb (or the side of the box) on each side of a Partial Frame (including a starter strip) to help keep comb straight and to reduce cross comb.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

If a colony is getting ready to swarm (queen cells with eggs etc), will OSBN stop them, or will they just build cells wherever they want and swarm anyways?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

You can just open up one side of the Broodnest if the colony is not so strong, just check within 1 week instead of 2 weeks.

OSBN has been used to stop Swarms. Just make sure all Queen Cells are removed first and then open up both sides of the Broodnest.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

How long have you been able to carry out this technique throughout the season?

For instance, have you been able to do this for more than a month without the colonies swarming?

Promising.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

As long as there is incoming nectar and pollen and there are large numbers of Nurse/House bees, then the hive can draw comb.

So I see this happening from 3 weeks before Swarm Season when I start OSBN, right through to well into the Main Flow. Weather and lack of Nectar/Pollen sources at times can slow down comb building. But the hives in my Urban environment rarely lack these things throughout that period. I do have hives on a couple of hobby farms and they at times can struggle with comb building because of lulls due to fewer varieties of Nectar/Pollen sources.

I do not know of any swarms from my hives when I have done OSBN. I have been doing OSBN for several years now.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

I've noticed they will prefer to move up into the honey supers to expand their brood nest rather than draw out the empty spaces. I can see that they totally ignore opening the brood nest in lower boxes.

I think I need a queen excluder for this method, because they expanded the crap out of the brood nest right into the honey super.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Yes, the Broodnest is usually moved upwards during the Spring. Then from the Main Flow the Broodnest gets backfilled and pushed down as the honey is stored at the top of the Nest

The bottom box is often left empty if Supers are added, especially during the summer. So Undrawn frames may get ignored in the bottom box later in the season.

Walt Wright used to put a Shallow on the bottom and called this the Pollen Box.

Some hives will "Chimney up" the Broodnest through the middle of the hive to the top box. So an Excluder helps to stop this.

I recommend having 2 Deeps (or 3 Mediums) for the Brood Boxes during Swarm Season. Once the Main Flow has started the Broodnest can be reduced to 1 Deep (or 2 Mediums) for the rest of the year.

When you say Supers, are they a different size to the Brood Box?
I recommend using all the same size frames.

With OSBN we are trying to widen the Broodnest and get it to fill up the width of the Brood Boxes. 

If the Broodnest is more vertical, you may need to move brood frames to the main Brood Box. Try to keep the spherical (watermelon) shape of the Broodnest.

Maintain 2 frames of Foundation in each box to keep the young bees busy making wax and building comb. Once in the Main Flow, just do it in the Supers only.


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## karenarnett (Mar 25, 2012)

Matt, Thank you for this thread and for your method. I’ve been trying it this year and so far all seven of my hives have remained and not swarmed. And two of them are super productive, with five well worked supers on each before the Lindens have come into bloom. It does look like they are starting to slow down a bit on brood production and my worries about lots of capped brood leading to swarm have not come to pass. They really do get by on less brood space than I thought they need. I suspect it’s because there’s been enough of a turnover of field bees, that the newly emerging bees are just more or less replacing those field bees. Now that we are well into the flow I’m trying a slight variant on this method: Im introducing foundationless frames In place of cut outs or frames of foundation into the brood nest- serving the purpose besides keeping the young bees occupied and getting some more honey storage comb of acting as a mite trap. I don’t know if it’ll work but my plan is to pull capped drone brood out and freeze it and then move those frames up into the supers.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

karenarnett said:


> Matt, Thank you for this thread and for your method. I’ve been trying it this year and so far all seven of my hives have remained and not swarmed. And two of them are super productive, with five well worked supers on each before the Lindens have come into bloom. It does look like they are starting to slow down a bit on brood production and my worries about lots of capped brood leading to swarm have not come to pass. They really do get by on less brood space than I thought they need. I suspect it’s because there’s been enough of a turnover of field bees, that the newly emerging bees are just more or less replacing those field bees. Now that we are well into the flow I’m trying a slight variant on this method: Im introducing foundationless frames In place of cut outs or frames of foundation into the brood nest- serving the purpose besides keeping the young bees occupied and getting some more honey storage comb of acting as a mite trap. I don’t know if it’ll work but my plan is to pull capped drone brood out and freeze it and then move those frames up into the supers.


Do you have any advice on keeping them from expanding the brood nest into the honey supers?

I checked my hives and sure enough they do draw out the opened frames, but they focused their efforts on turning the honey super into a brood nest.

...they even built swarm cells on the newly drawn out OSBN frames


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## karenarnett (Mar 25, 2012)

This is my first year try at queen excluders, and I started keeping in 2008. So I haven’t been in any hurry to confine the brood, and even for a while tried the method called unlimited brood nest where you just keep giving the bees more and more space. I don’t think you can keep the queen out of the supers without using a queen excluder- If given the choice they’ll build upward. I think the key with QE is to make sure that you put it on top of a well developed brood nest that is using all the space below. I watched some of the videos from beekeepers who run single deeps (“Canadian beekeeper’s point of view” Is one channel and another is from University of Guelph) And it’s clear they make sure the brood box(es) are boiling over before adding supers. That way the bees don’t have any other room for a honey dome besides above the queen excluder. If you have too much empty brood space below the excluder, They’ll just start putting honey below that and might try to swarm rather than move through it. Because that’s one of the catalyst to swarming, is the bees creating a honey dome above their nest and running out of space. That’s just my conclusion but as I said I’m new to this method.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

For what its worth Karen, I agree with the thinking. It is one of the factors that played into my decision to reduce my deeps from 3 to 2 in the spring. Plus it's just way easier to inspect and OSBN. At my last inspection they stopped making drones in the open space and filled it with nectar. I cut it out to enjoy and will see if they continue to make wax my next time in. J


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

You've got it Karen. Now that you are well into the Main Flow it's more about keeping those house bees busy, drawing out comb in Supers and moving up nectar that the field bees are bringing in. If you able to take a few mostly capped frames from each hive, you could start Extracting and giving them back the empty Drawn Comb. With continuing to add Foundationless frames in the Brood Boxes, comb will more likely be drawn as Worker comb, if drawn at all. Frames at the bottom of the hive may get ignored as the focus is on the Honey above the Broodnest. But it's worth a try and seeing what you can do in your area.
Well done!

Thanks again for your comments FiveJ.

Username00101, had Swarm Season already started in your area when you started doing OSBN?

Once the bees have started Swarm Prep it is difficult to change their mind. OSBN can help, but it may also be a case of having to search and destroy Queen cells for a few weeks. If you miss 1 they will likely just Supersede instead. Either way they will get past that stage.

Having a few frames of Open Brood can really help in reducing Swarm Prep as it keeps the Nurse bees busy. The Partial Frames of Foundation helps to keep the older Wax Making/House Bees busy with drawing out comb. So if you have another hive that is not building swarm cells, you could get a frame of mostly eggs or young larvae from them.

This is why it is recommended that OSBN be started before Swarm Season starts.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Positive results.

As mentioned in my previous post they will try their best to force their brood nest into the honey super instead of drawing out the OSBN frames.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

MattDavey: You might try keeping with just one deep for the brood, and moving frames instead of adding a second deep. You will have fewer frames to inspect, and can get just as poppulace a hive.

Crazy Roland


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Hi Roland, I haven't tried a Single Deep for all season, but I'm sure it would work well. Just would have to be moving up the 2 outside frames (typically with brood) every week instead.

I prefer to be able to have a longer time between inspections and find that moving up 4 frames (2 frames from each Brood Box) at a time allows me to inspect fortnightly.

I've also found an average queen seems to Max out at about 12 frames of Brood. Obviously these frames have more feed on them than those from a Single Deep, which have little feed on them.

So most of the time I'm moving up honey/nectar frames, rather than brood frames. I notice old brood frames tend to get pollen stored in them, even when in a Super.

The primary purpose of OSBN is help new beekeepers to get Draw Comb, rather than get a large honey crop. But I still seem to be getting more honey than before using this method


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

If a fortnight is the same as our 14 days, then we are in sync. We schedule inspections every 14 days, and move brood up, empty comb down. The queen maxes out at 12 frames because she wastes time looking for open cells. Don't waste her time.

Crazy Roland


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I watched a few guys with Single Deeps on YouTube. I notice the bees leaving a dome of empty cells on the middle frames directly above the Excluder. They expect the Queen to lay there, but she can't get to those cells.

Are you using that behaviour to get the 2 frames of empty comb to place below the Excluder?

After 2 weeks, any brood on the 2 frames put into the Single brood box would be capped. 
So are you cycling the same 4 frames? (2 frames up, 2 frames down)


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Rotate empty comb down, brood up. 

Crazy Roland


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Cool, thanks Roland.

Now that I have a heap of empty Drawn Comb, I might do a side by side comparison.

One hive doing OSBN with Foundation as normal, and the other hive following the same principles of OSBN but with Drawn Comb in a Single Deep brood box.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

In a year where brooding iis way above average, we have intleaved foundation. It seems to slow them down more than drawn comb. If the flow stops, they will chew the heck out of the foundation.

Crazy Roland


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Ok, here's some calculations:

*Worker Brood Cycle:* 21 Days
*Worker Brood Capped:* Day 9

*10 Frame Single Deep*
Queen lays:
10 Frames/21 Days = 0.48 of a Frame

Adding 2 Empty Frames at day 14 of a 21 day cycle means the Broodnest is actually 12 Frames.

So Queen lays:
12 Frames/21 Days = 0.57 of a Frame

For ease of calculations lets say the Queen lays 1/2 a Frame per Day.

Adding 2 Empty Frames gives 4 Days of Queen laying.

*Worst case scenario, Queen only lays in those frames:
*4 + 8 Days until Brood is all capped = 12 Days

Foundation takes an extra couple of days. So a 14 day inspection cycle should be ok.

Adding 3 Empty Frames gives 6 Days of Queen laying.
6 + 8 Days until Brood is all capped = 14 Days

Adding 4 Empty Frames gives 8 Days of Queen laying.
8 + 8 Days until Brood is all capped = 16 Days


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Do your calculations with 5 going up every 2 weeks, outside frames stay as pollen, everything else active.

Crazy Roland


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

We are talking about Opening the Sides of the Brood Nest, so I'm going to draw the line at moving up 4 frames (2 from each side). 

Moving any more frames up from a Single Deep is half the Brood Box!

Using an Excluder also requires finding the Queen or shaking the frames that are to be moved into the bottom box to make sure the Queen is below the Excluder.

But OSBN is aimed at beginners and the main idea is to maintain the integrity of the core of the Brood Nest by only opening up the outside edges. Especially earlier in the season when temperatures can drop quickly. It only requires finding the edges of the Brood Nest and inserting empty/undrawn frames.

Thanks for your input Roland, but it is a different method.
Do you have a name for it? Such as:
Moving Capped Brood Above the Excluder (MCBAE)


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

In a colony strong enough to expand the brood out to the edge of the box, I've found they're also strong enough to swarm without having to deal with OSBN. 

I've had excellent success with OSBN as long as it's not on the last frame or 2 away from the edge of the box.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Matt - No name for the method. Probable was more popular in the 1940's. Adrian Quiney had found a book on it, or at least an author of information from that time.

Actually, what we do starts as OSBN, we just take it farther.

Crazy Roland


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Cool, thanks again Roland.

Haven't seen anything from Adrian for some time now..

Username00101, thanks for the comments. 
Had the hive already started Swarm Prep/Queen Cells when you started doing OSBN?


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Bump. I've seen colonies put on a full super of honey and draw out 2 OSBN deep frames now without swarming.

Other colonies have drawn out 2 mediums frames AND 2 deep frames and still have not swarmed.

Of course this reduces honey production, but my apiary is short on drawn comb.

Rarely, a colony will just go "all in" and swarm away, but 95% of the time this technique works as advertised.

There's some drone comb being produced, but it's nothing too crazy. I've seen a couple of situations where they'll draw out the triangle of worker comb surrounded by drone comb, but most of the OSBN frames look like worker comb to me.

Perhaps this is because my colonies tend to already have some drone combs?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks for the update.

Yes, once there are a couple of brood frames with mostly drone comb, then the focus is more on worker size comb after that.

*Can you please state WHEN you started OSBN in relation to Swarm Season in your area?*

When you started posting on this thread it sounded like Swarm Season had already started and you were already seeing Queen cells.

You will get much better results if you start 2-3 weeks before Swarm Season starts.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Bump for this method.

Thank you, Matt.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Well, I decided to start a YouTube channel and make some videos about OSBN.
The channel is called "Matt Davey Bees".

I have just finished and uploaded the first video called "Making OSBN Frames".
It's not as easy to present a video as it looks, but I'll get there.

Here is the link:
https://youtu.be/Qt6WPy_hAEI

Hope you enjoy!


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

MattDavey said:


> Well, I decided to start a YouTube channel and make some videos about OSBN.
> The channel is called "Matt Davey Bees".
> 
> I have just finished and uploaded the first video called "Making OSBN Frames".
> ...


Very much appreciated.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I have made a few more videos, here is the link to OSBN using only Foundation:
https://youtu.be/oTsAiiYdivc

This is one is OSBN using Empty Comb:
https://youtu.be/OBwSZ5_KeZw

Both hives had 8 frames with brood, so both the outside honey frames went up to the second box.

Also, this one on attaching Wax Foundation to Bamboo Skewers:
https://youtu.be/8AAqjEZ9xQU


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I have just uploaded another video: OSBN with Empty Comb - 2nd Inspection.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_Vq2pMqSpg

In it you will see an OSBN frame mostly drawn with Brood, eggs and Drone comb on the bottom edges.

The other OBSN frame is just starting to get drawn out and you can see some larvae in shallow partially drawn cells and also Wax Makers building comb.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

The video for the 2nd inspection of the hive where I am doing OSBN using only Foundation has now been uploaded:






This Spring has been cold and wet, so I have not had a lot of opportunities to work on the hives and be able to do a video.
So the first Inspection was later than usual, right at the start of Swarm Season. This meant there were 8 frames with brood and so the OSBN frame and Foundation frame were both put on the outside edges of the box. As you know, bees are reluctant to draw out outside frames. So these frames were not drawn out as well as usual.

I also put the second OSBN frame towards the outside of the top box. So both OSBN frames barely got touched. Only the bottom one had a bottom corner drawn out.

The bees did still draw out 4 full frames and 2 half frames of Foundation and filled them with brood, nectar and pollen. So it was still successful. But it looks like the trigger for Wax Making was the gap between boxes instead as they put Drone comb (and larvae) there. I haven't had Drone comb between boxes for years, since I started doing OSBN.

So the 2nd OSBN frame should be placed beside the 2 honey frames in the Top (New) Box to ensure that at least one of the OSBN frames acts as a trigger for Wax Making.

So this is what I am recommending:


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Here are videos for the 3rd inspection of both Hives. The one using only Foundation and the other using only Drawn Comb.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

For those in the southern states of the United States interested in trying OSBN, now is the time to get ready and check your beehive(s). 

After last season, with a couple of the hives shown in the videos above as examples, here are some pointers:

Best to start when there are 6 (Deep) Frames with Brood.
It helps to scrape the capping of any capped honey on the frames that are moved up to the New Box.
When adding 2 New Frames at once, one can be a Partial Frame of Foundation and the other a Full Frame of Foundation.
Best to place the 2nd OSBN Frame beside the Honey Frame(s) in the New (Top) Box.
Avoid placing Foundation or an OSBN Frame on the outside edge of the Brood Box, these frames may only get the comb drawn on the inner face. [If you have to, then only do one side of the box. Moving the outside (honey) frame and the frame next to it (with the least amount of brood/eggs), into the middle of the New Box.]
If concerned that adding a New Box will be too much space for the bees to heat when temperatures are low, the Inner Cover/Crown Board can be placed in-between the Brood Box and the New Box. This helps to maintain the Temperature in the Brood Box, but the bees still have access to the frames in the New Box through the hole in the Inner Cover/Crown Board. It can be moved up to the top once temperatures are warmer.
It is harder to get bees to draw out Plastic Foundation. Make sure to coat the Plastic Foundation well with wax!


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Here is the video for the 4th and 5th inspections for OSBN with Empty Comb, which shows what I do at the start of the Main Flow:


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Here is the video on how I make OSBN Frames with plastic Foundation:


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Many Beekeepers seem to think that Splitting is the only reliable Swarm Prevention method, but I've heard of many stories were splits have still swarmed.

If you don't want to increase the number of hives you have, then give OSBN a go.
I've seen no swarming and increased honey yields when I do OSBN.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Points to remember:

Reduce the hives down to 1 Brood Box for Winter.
Extract Supers earlier in Autumn/Fall.

Winter is quickly approaching here.
Coldest day so far this year.

Once again I have left it too late to extract the Autumn/Fall Super and 2nd Brood Box on the hives, it’s all crystalized!
Darn...


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## zonedar (May 14, 2015)

Started this a few weeks ago in my 2 brood 8 frame hives. So far no signs of swarming... 

I've just been going in and cutting out the drone comb in the open triangular frames. Seems to be working as about every week and a half they've drawn in out and filled it with new drone brood. 

I run eight frame deeps and medium supers it makes me a bit space constrained to add new open frames. 

Any reason why I shouldn't just keep doing this?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

The bees will always want to repair a hole inside their Brood Nest.

Whist I acknowledge that culling Drone Brood is a way to reduce Varroa Mite, I do use or promote this practice.

A healthy natural hive wants a Drone population around 20% or more in the reproductive season, so if you keep removing Drone Comb they may continue building it. Once they have enough Drones they focus more on building Worker Comb.

I prefer to get them putting their energy into drawing out frames for the Supers. The period when the majority of comb is drawn is not real long. So I would focus on that.

Having different size frames does complicate things. Maybe having a Deep and a Medium for the Brood Nest is a way to do it.


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## zonedar (May 14, 2015)

Matt,

It's not really about trying to manage the drone pop. I'm doing it to keep them drawing out comb per your advice. 

As I run medium supers drawing out comb by putting them beside the brood nest would be difficult.

I'll keep it up and report back if it works.

Thanks,

-Steve


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I’ve put smaller frames in a Deep before. Just may have to cut comb off the bottom of the frame if you leave it too long.


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## MaineMike (Jan 21, 2017)

Hi Matt! 

Been using your technique for a couple of seasons, working well. But this year even after swapping deeps, they have moved the brood nest back up into the top deep. I cant do the "move frames up into the upper deep' operation, so Im adding OSBN frames to that upper, and pulling the last new full frame that is 1/2 built up with wax. They painted me into a corner it seems, Im running out of frames to pull. 

Any thoughts on what my next move should be? 

I cant pull uncured honey or any frame with brood. After 3 manipulations Ive got this organization in 2 hives (roughly):

PhOBBoBohP

P=partial wax built
o=old OSBN built up 100% - has brood
O= new OSBN frame
B = brood
h = uncurred

Do I cut the drone comb off the "o" frames and put those frame back in, possibly?

BTW Ive got honey supers on that are almost finished, with a queen excluder. 

Mike


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Hi Mike,

Are you using Mediums above the Queen excluder?

I’m using all Deeps, so the uncured frames go into the Supers. When I say move outer frames up into a new box, I’m talking about putting those frames in the Supers once there are two Brood boxes.

I also take uncured/nectar frames from the bottom Deep and put them in the Supers as well. Some of these may have some pollen in them.

Also the OSBN frames are only to trigger wax making in the early part of Swarm Season. ie. There is only 1 per Brood box. So once the bees have started drawing comb just use standard foundation.

Have a look at:


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## MaineMike (Jan 21, 2017)

Both my bottom boxes are deeps, the honey supers above those are mediums, so I cant move any frame up.

I dont want to swap deeps again either.

I suppose I could move top deep outter frames down into the bottom deep, depending whats on those frames. Im sure they have extended the brood into the bottom deeps, but the outside frames could be valid to pull... I'll have to inspect again next weekend.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Are you into the Main Flow yet? Or is it far away?

If you are into the Main Flow you don’t need to do any more to the Brood Boxes.

Only focus on the Supers, maintaining 2 undrawn/empty frames per Super from now on. As the bees focus in the Main Flow is storing the incoming nectar. As long as they have space they will try to fill it.

Also, once in the Main Flow you want the bees to start backfilling the top Brood box and to start to push the Broodnest downwards.

I suggest you consider moving to all Mediums for Brood Boxes, so that the frames are interchangeable. 3 Mediums is equivalent to 2 Deeps.


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## MaineMike (Jan 21, 2017)

Yes in main flow, every thing is in bloom, thanks for guidance Matt - Mike


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Here is my latest video on OSBN. Started just at the right time. A great example of what to do.


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