# VM Vaporizer



## Ian

I hear from beekeeper chatter the treatment duration to be 10 seconds. 
I loaded 10g into the device and it fogged for 20 seconds. According to our provincial treatment guidelines, a 2g dose is required. So that would mean a 4 second treatment is required, 10 seconds being 2.5 times over dose. 
How long of treatment duration do you guys use?


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## Allen Martens

20 seconds seems short. I would expect to do 4 to 6 hives with a 10 sec dose. I'm not sure how far up the baster tube 10 g is - I am thinking about 2.5 in?

If you are too hot most of the OA will decompose into formic. Hard to hit the sweet spot for temp.


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## Ian

How do you know if the burner is too hot and simply decomposing the OA?


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## Allen Martens

Unfortunately you really can't tell without trail and error. Once it starts smoking I turn the burner off for a bit and then flick it on for a bit periodically. I also will have my temperature a bit lower for filling in the OA and give it 30 s to warm up and begin to smoke properly. Often I will test the smoke on a darker pallet to see if it is delivering crystals.

After 6000 doses I am still not quite sure. It an art and a science.


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## Ian

How many hives worth of OA do you load up at a time? 10g, 20g?


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## Allen Martens

When things are working right I often load the whole tube length of the baster.

Last Thursday something was not right. A small dose went straight through. Thinking back, the VM was horizontal for a bit and when I cleaned it Saturday lots came out so I may have had a blockage.


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## jean-marc

I was loading about 3 inches in the baster... like the instructions said.

I would say the first 10 000 treatments are the toughest... kinda like bee stings in that respect. It takes awhile to get the hang of it. I never turned the heat on and off. I would never dare fill the turkey baster with oxalic. With our high moisture levels and rain it would forever to bring it to temperature.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

The VM vaporizer worked masterfully, we treated 5 yards in 2 hours. Approximately 1.75-2gram in a ten second Oxalic vapour treatment per hive. The bees hardly stirred. I'll check back in a week to confirm a mite kill.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TqQO_I2KJNo


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## Ian

How long after the treatment before I'll see a good mite drop?


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## Maybee Apiaries

Provincial apiculturalist told me to check with a wash 4 days later, should see results. 
I'm still fighting with the JB 700, it doesn't make smoke like that thing does. Hope I can get some kind of results.


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## Ian

The hive sure gets penetrated with vapour. Not sure how much is being lost from the entrance, cracks and from the gun. I did not consider the vap losses in my per hive dose estimate


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## jean-marc

You see a pretty good drop after 48 hours. After 96 it slows right down again. I think that those varroa that do not drop are not feeling like they are in tip top shape. Oxalic acid really messes with them.

I think a lot of vapour (50%) is lost unless you stuff a blue shop towel (again with keeping with beekeeping traditions) at the entrance. In the past I did a test on 2 groups of 10 pallets each. Did pre drops... both groups were about equal. One group the entrances were left open... like I an just did... the other had blue shop towel stuffed in to keep as much smoke in as possible. The second group was dropping about 50% more varroa.
I kept doing it that from that point on. Don't know if it is necessary. To block the smoke in takes effort and it is much slower. Might be cheaper just to treat another time.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc

Sure is nice to treat the colonies just before they go in the buildings. If the bees are all stacked up in the holding yards you can do a lot of hives in a day. I would not hesitate to do do 3 treatments in a 10 day span... really mess those varroa up. If any of them would survive until spring I doubt they could reproduce.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

My plan is to hit them this week (working afternoons when a bit warmer) then I'll have the gun run ahead of the yards I start pulling indoors. 
I'm going to start bringing them in a bit early this year again to get away from the shunts...although the farm has a lot of fall work to be done yet. This fall seems to be leaning towards winter already (hope not for the sake of many western farmers)


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## Ian

My first impression with this gun has been a good one. I'll carry that thought forward after I see results lol


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## jean-marc

I think you'll be pleased. I sure was last year. I believe it saved a lot of colonies. So many of them still had zero mites in the washes in the beginning of september even though some did not get any treatments spring or summer. That was way coolfor me. 

That gun is fast, cheap to operate, oxalic is dirt cheap. It is a bit pricey say for a guy with 200 hives with 500 not so much anymore. 1000 plus I think you should have one. With amitraz not working so well here and there we are left with thymol, formic and oxalic. Basically you can't afford not to have one.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

Talking to a California queen breeder today and he told me he used his VM once, and it has not left his closet since. His problem is brood. Had another US guy chat with me about how they've decided to winter building the hives up north for a few months to glean the advantage of winter bee population and broodlessness. Strictly a mite target strategy. 
Shut them down, clean them up, ship them south. 
This wintering facility may create another opportunity I can capitalize on, a target on mite control.
But before I start putting the cart before the horse I need to check mite kill


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## jean-marc

It is a good strategy. I wondered why more guys have not done that. Broodless is also good to give the bees a rest, Come spring they are chomping at the bit ready to go. 
Lots of guys here on Beesource talk about doing treatments 3-5 days apart when bees are broody. It is a bit tougher when you have 10 000 hives but resources have to be invested into mite treatments. If they can still get away with Taktic, then I suppose it s hard to justify extra labour for oxalic applications or a wintering shed. Ain't that something though, bees wanna go north for a winter vacation. What is the world coming to?

I think if the bees have not startedbrooding in the buildings I would hit them on the way out as well. My 2 cents.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

jean-marc said:


> I think if the bees have not startedbrooding in the buildings I would hit them on the way out as well. My 2 cents.
> 
> Jean-Marc


My strategy is twice before in, once after out. I have at weeks grace after moving them out before I'd find capped brood. But this device is trainable, I have my employee trained on it. Second day out this spring she will start.

Hinging on fact that this treatment is easy on the bees. The last 2 months of our 6 month confinement is very stressful. I have friend here I talk to regularly who simply overdosed a group of hives last fall to see if looked different in the shed. He said they came out better... lol
As you have also said Jean Marc but your wintering conditions are much different than mine. 
Ive read everything you've typed here about the VM and that shared experience has allowed me to train my employee on this after the first day. 

I'm going to check drops today


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## snl

Ian said:


> I'm going to check drops today


Looking forward to seeing those numbers.


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## Allen Martens

Well I think OAV is not as effective as a spring treatment as I thought.

I am having a number of hives crashing due to varroa. Looks like my results were much spottier than I thought. I did 3 rounds with the VM in spring time with reducers on and on in August without the reducers. I thought I was monitoring a decent amount but obviously not enough.

Lessons learned. 
Monitor, monitor, monitor. 
If treating when brood is present many rounds are needed.
Thick smoke always.

My numbers are coming down dramatically in most hives with my Oct treatments after 2 rounds. In many cases down to 0. I will do a lot of monitoring just before they go into the wintering shed.


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## jean-marc

I agree with Allen. Lots of monitoring. We did some MAQS in the late spring on some hives and some in late summer, others thymoll late summer. It allows the bees to bridge that gap, and reduce that crazy exponential growth of varroa on the last round of brood. I am pretty sure 2 good treatments with the thick white smoke when they are broodless would do the trick, maybe 3.

With more monitoring you just get a better idea of what is truly going on with varroa in your outfit. It is a bit of a pain and tedious, but at the end of the day it is your outfit and it is good to know. If you need another treatment ot two you can make the necessary adjustment. By the way Swienty has a new varroa tester. Basically the sample as the alcohol wash but instead you can attach a CO2 cartridge to anaesthetize the bees. Not messy and no killing of the bees sampled. The bees and the varroa get knocked out. The varroa fall through a screen and are easy to count.

Jean-Marc

Jean-Marc


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## cheryl1

When you are monitoring mites in a yard, what % of the hives do you check to get a good idea of how it's doing? This year I did every hive, but next year I'll need to switch to monitoring by yard vs by hive.


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## jean-marc

If I do 10% that is sufficient, in my estimation. I know some that do 25% even heard of one doing 100%. If I were to do all of them, I would likely take the next step and breed from those that have been able to keep the mites down all year. I am assuming that they also have desirable characteristics like, good honey production.

All I am trying to determine is whether or not I need to treat, then whether or not the treatments worked. There is a lot of variability within yards. Do not fall into the trap of complacency just because you looked at 2 hives in a yard of 40 and the levels were low on them. The next hive could have much higher mite levels. The greater the sample size the more confidence you can have in your sampling methods but it does take time and resources. I got caught with my pants down last year, again, so now we are far more vigilent and hope to remain so for the years to come. Employees tend to get complacent, so I need to watch for that as well.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

Are you guys monitoring drop counts with sticky boards? 
I have a bunch out right now 
Starting to see drops


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## jean-marc

I monitor with sheets of plastic foundation. It is not the greatest method because at times the bees are directly on the foundation because of strength. However all I relly want to see is some falling mites, and after each application a lesser amount of falling mites. Do a few washes here and there on colonies that I had done pre treatment counts and then I can determine for myself whether or not the treaments worked. I write this on strips of coloured duct tape. It is stickier than the cheaper grey stuff. All I really want to see is a lesser amount of falling mites between treatments. It is just a gauge, a bit crude but nonetheless very informative and it helps put my mind at rest... I treated, it seems to have worked, I did all I could, relax dude.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

>>relax dude, <<

Ha ha ha, ya right. I think I relax about as much as you ha ha

I like your foundation idea


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## jean-marc

Thanks. I need to remind myself to enjoy my life. We do all this work take 20 plus years to go from 2 hives (they were strong lol) up to 4500 plus going into winter for the last 3 years... then the honey market takes a nosedive. Had prices stayed the same we would be in really good shape, as is we are ok but the incertitude of the industry creates some challenges on the relax side of life.

All I can do is take care of the bees best I can, same goes for the crew, the equipment and do the same for myself. I am in it for the long haul. I was told the first 25 years are the toughest and I am approaching that milestone. With today's honey prices I might be able to retire in the next 25 years. haha.

Jean-Marc


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## cheryl1

25 years sounds like a long time but it'll get here quick


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## grozzie2

jean-marc said:


> By the way Swienty has a new varroa tester. Basically the sample as the alcohol wash but instead you can attach a CO2 cartridge to anaesthetize the bees.


I saw that thing at the propolis table at the show last weekend. We've got a few co2 cartridges here, going to give that technique a try by putting the co2 into the other gadget we have instead of alchohol. Will be interesting to see how well it works. What I was thinking was do them with the c02, then after we have the count from that, wash them, and see what the difference is. The co2 way sure sounds quicker / cleaner / easier if we dont see a big difference compared to washing.


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## Maybee Apiaries

grozzie2 said:


> I saw that thing at the propolis table at the show last weekend. We've got a few co2 cartridges here, going to give that technique a try by putting the co2 into the other gadget we have instead of alchohol. Will be interesting to see how well it works. What I was thinking was do them with the c02, then after we have the count from that, wash them, and see what the difference is. The co2 way sure sounds quicker / cleaner / easier if we dont see a big difference compared to washing.


Did they have a price on the new mite tester? I know, you can't put a price on knowing your mite levels. 
That's why two jars and a piece of screen cost almost 30 bucks


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## grozzie2

Maybee Apiaries said:


> Did they have a price on the new mite tester? I know, you can't put a price on knowing your mite levels.
> That's why two jars and a piece of screen cost almost 30 bucks


I didn't look at a price. It looks much like the 2 jars with a screen setup, but it's got a vent for the co2 cartridge, and if memory serves, it may have even had a clip for it. I've been using the two jars setup this season, so, going to give it a shot by simply dumping the co2 into that and see what kind of result we get.


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## Ian

Holy crap, talk about a mite drop. I have stickies under a number of hives. I checked a couple stickies showing roughly 15-20 mites, nothing too impressive, except my hives are relatively clean anyhow. An apiary average sample which counts 2.5-4% infestation.
I identified a smaller hive, tipped it back. A cluster covering 5/6 frames but not large enough to touch the bottom board. I lost count at ahundred, estimating hundreds across the bottom board. That's after 24hrs. So if I estimate some math, that's an instant reduction of about 1.5-2% infestation. 

I will be doing some mite washes this weekend but seeing that kill is reassuring


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## jean-marc

That Swienty device is $52 Euro in the catalogue on the other side of the pond. 57 USD over there , plus freight and somebody will want to make a fews beans off of it over here. Likely $80. The thing I like is we don't kill company employees using this device, just knock them out for a few minutes. The 2 legged ones will be reassured that they can benefit from the company policy, lol. I will likely get a few, one per truck. It s just good insurance to keep checking. Maybe it is not a good idea to check when you are pulling honey... too busy doing other things even if you have high levels. It might drive you crazy.

It is always reassuring when you see varroa dropping. Kewl. Time to thank the neighbor again. At about 2 cents of oxalic acid and 20 cents of labour you can't afford not to do it again. If you are broodless I predict that come next fall you will still have low levels assuming that the neighbors are 5 miles or more away. In a worst case scenario you can maybe do 3 mite wipes in late august early september to get you in to oxalic season. Hope it works out well for you.

Jean-Marc

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

I was going to buy it but I can't afford the price he needs for it. I've contacted Ed and he mentioned by the time I order a new unit this winter, I'll get the updates.


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## jean-marc

He is behind in his work. I think he is playing catch up on a lot of back orders. If you can get away without having to shell ut money now, then good for you. Nice to have neighbors.

Just got off the phone with an Alberta neighbor. We have a 53 foot triaxle loaded with bees spinning on snow and ice even with the chains on the tires. I hired him to pull us out with his big tactor and big tow ropes. I am just glad someone can do that kind of work. Hope load 2 and 3 go a little bit smoother.

Jean-Marc


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## zhiv9

jean-marc said:


> That Swienty device is $52 Euro in the catalogue on the other side of the pond. 57 USD over there , plus freight and somebody will want to make a fews beans off of it over here. Likely $80.


You were pretty close. Propolis quoted me $89. I am curious to know how long the CO2 cartridges last. I have been using the shaker jar, but its a bit of a pain and you have to swirl them two or three times to get an accurate read on the mites. I thought I might try making one Randy's cup-in-cup design or buying the Veto-pharm EasyCheck when it comes available. Anything to make it easier and faster so I check more regularly.


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## suttonbeeman

zhiv9 said:


> You were pretty close. Propolis quoted me $89. I am curious to know how long the CO2 cartridges last. I have been using the shaker jar, but its a bit of a pain and you have to swirl them two or three times to get an accurate read on the mites. I thought I might try making one Randy's cup-in-cup design or buying the Veto-pharm EasyCheck when it comes available. Anything to make it easier and faster so I check more regularly.


My experiemce has,been that the co2 tester was not as,accurate as the alcohol wash. Seems to vary a bit from accurate to maybe 35 pct off.


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## jean-marc

ok, good to know Suttonbeeman, but we can all feel good for not killing our bees.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

Had a problem with the device not fogging consistently and spitting OA out the front. Could not figure it out.
So with a flash light I looked down and realized the cleaning rod that is provided was not cleaning out the residue along sidewalls. 
I used a larger SS rod and broke away the residue. Now it works perfectly again. 

Now I know exactly how this device works. 
Simply a burner cup at the bottom of a SS tube. A larger tube around the burn area to help confine the heat. The air trigger obviously administers the OA vapour, but the (seemingly useless) continuous air jet provides 3 important functions. #1, it pushes the OA down the tube into the burner, #2 it keeps the continued Vapor pushing out the front between treatments and not backing up the tube into the persons face, #3 it keeps the burner cool during transport. 

Maybe there were instructions given on sale, but I don't have them or any other references to work off, other that the extremely useful chatter here on beesource. 

This device is so simple, I can't justify a $4800 purchase of it....I am handy with a welder, give me a hot plate. 
But the VM works simply amazingly well and gets my overwhelming stamp of approval 

Now if the OA kills the mites, time will tell me, washes will be done this weekend


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## Ian

We have only been working during the heat of the day, afternoons, because of the cold nights. Carrie by herself has been working through 6-8 yards roughly half hour per yard. 
The amount of OA used through a day registers a 2 g dose


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## Maybee Apiaries

Would a mite drop of fifty, 24 hours after treatment be considered good? Alcohol wash showed about 5% infestation.
Will the drop continue to go up for days after?


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## Ian

I'm new to this, keep an eye on it to see
Math shows that hive has roughly 1000 mites if loaded at 5%


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## jean-marc

Looks like you have a good grip of how this works. Another way to look at it is you were giving too large a dose to the gun and it is not quite burning it all off. With the black knob and steady airstream, not too open and or fast airflow because it will cool the gun down too much and it will not burn the oxalic properly... i.e. you will not have that thick white smoke.

For what it is, it is pricey, but if you save 12 to 20 hives you have paid for the unit... if you do not use Apivar because you are using this unit on a thousand hives 2 strips each... $5500. Again you have paid for it in one season. You can spend your time fooling around trying to save the $4500 and still spend say $2000 and then pay again because you did your treatments too late and consequently loose more colonies or you can show your support to the guy who came up with a pretty good system to kill mites pretty quickly and relatively priced. It's a choice. I had a neighbor who wanted to copy this and have it made in China, I discouraged him and did not bring my gun. After all the inventor does deserve to earn some money from this. For sure he is not getting rich. It is likely a very good week-end job. Not sure he could survive if this were a fulltime gig... just not enough commercial beekeepers who can fork out $4500.

If after 24 hours 50 varroa dropped, I would say you will have 150 total or so in another 24 hours. Seems like a good amount. I would say do them again if possible. From my experience it seems like it is hard too damage bees with oxalic, so I would be inclined to give more just in case they need it. You can always give half the outfit another shot, and later if you want another 25% of the outfit a third shot. In the spring let us know what you see. You can always mutter to yourself, shudda done the whole ****ed outfit 2 times , 3 times or whatever the case is. It is hard to do washes now, not pleasant, nobody likes doing them in your current weather conditions.

Jean-Marc

Jean-Marc


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## grozzie2

jean-marc said:


> For what it is, it is pricey, but if you save 12 to 20 hives you have paid for the unit... if you do not use Apivar because you are using this unit on a thousand hives 2 strips each... $5500. Again you have paid for it in one season.


This reminds me a lot of one of my Dad's favourite sayings. There is never enough money to do it right the first time, always seems to be enough to fix it later, even tho the fix costs more than doing it right to start. In this case, 5 grand (round numbers) is equivalent to 25 packages next spring (assuming prices dont go up again). I've seen Ian post photos showing lots of the round tubes from Aritaki. So the question one has to ask, is that 'fixing it later' ?


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## Ian

Good point Jean Marc I love the perspective. We are farmers after all ...


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## Ian

grozzie2 said:


> This reminds me a lot of one of my Dad's favourite sayings. There is never enough money to do it right the first time, always seems to be enough to fix it later, even tho the fix costs more than doing it right to start. In this case, 5 grand (round numbers) is equivalent to 25 packages next spring (assuming prices dont go up again). I've seen Ian post photos showing lots of the round tubes from Aritaki. So the question one has to ask, is that 'fixing it later' ?


Those round tubes of bees are an important tool in my business, they fill boxes fast
I am not to the point where I'll hang my hat on this device. Proof is in the pudding. The only reason I'm using this treatment option is from what I've heard here on BS. All apologies to Jean Marc Allen And others, I need first hand results. Otherwise all this device is a $4500 idea that works very well . If I can do the same thing for $500, that's my route. 
But ya, I agree with the math, I have to be aware of which side of the equation im going to pay on. 

I have been offered trial on another device , looks interesting, and Gerry, you will be able to justify this one too :thumbsup:


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## grozzie2

Ian said:


> I'm new to this, keep an eye on it to see
> Math shows that hive has roughly 1000 mites if loaded at 5%


Some folks tell me that math is my strong point, and in summer 2015 I really dropped the ball in that respect, we had a bunch of colonies crash in August from mite explosions. So, I spent a good chunk of last winter figuring out what we did wrong, and why it was wrong. I read up a lot on the mite and it's reproductive cycle, then did some math, and the numbers jumped out a couple of big 'aha' moments.

Summer life cycle of the mite, round numbers, based on a lot of reading various articles on the subject. they spend 4 to 5 days phoretic, then go into a cell to reproduce. If she goes into a worker cell, 11 days under the capping, produces one viable daughter mite. they both emerge, then go into another 4 to 5 days phoretic phase, then they both head into a cell to reproduce. So follow the numbers to see where we go. On day 1 we have one mite entering a cell, then after 11 days under capping, two viable mites emerge. 4 days later, both of them head into a cell, and 11 more days later, 4 mites emerge. One is the original foundress mite, which is now at the end of average life, so we have 3 viable mites after 30 days. Every 30 days the mite count will triple. this is valid early in the season before we have drone brood.

Later, we have drone brood and the numbers change, dramatically. Foundress enters the cell, but now sits under the capping for 14 days, and produces two (sometimes 3) viable daughters. Figure on two, estimate conservatively here. Those 3 mites (mom + 2 daughters) now spend 4 days in the phoretic phase, and then enter drone cells. 14 days later, each of them has produced 2 more offspring and they come out. the original foundress mite is now reaching end of life, but, her 8 daughters + granddaughters are headed into the 4 days phoretic part of the cycle. Net result, 1 mite + 36 days = 8 mites when they have drone brood to propogate in. that amounts to doubling in population every 12 days.

So now I look at our season life cycle here. Our bees start brooding in early February. If we have one mite in a colony at that time they get two 30 day cycles by the time we are raising drones in April. Over that time, triple in 30 days, we have now got 9 viable mites by early april, and things start to accellerate, drone brood in the hive so we get on average a doubling of the population every 12 days moving forward, so by late april is 18, then 36 by early may, 144 by June 1. Continue to double every 12 days and we are now at 1152 by roughly July 4, and going north of 4500 by the end of July, and upwards of 10,000 by mid August. Look at the numbers at the beginning of July, 1100 mites in 50K bees works out to right around 2%, which many say doesn't sound to bad, but, those mites have reached the critical mass with drone brood available for propogating. 2% load left unchecked at July 1 works out to 20% or higher by mid August, and that's a dead hive walking, if it's is still walking at all.

I have purposely avoided saying much about our change of strategy this year, because it's very unconventional. Everybody tells us the main honey flow is blackberries, but i disagree. 3 years of a hive sitting on a scale tells me, our early crop comes up until the salmon berries are finished, then the hives put on virtually nothing during blackberry bloom. this year, we took supers off at the end of salmon berries, and I did counts. Over the next couple of weeks, we left the supers off, and I treated the bees, they got 3 hits of OA over two weeks, and I did counts again. I was getting 2 to 5 mites per wash before we started, I got 0 and 1 counts after i was done. Supers went back on, and hives went to fireweed patch. When they came home this year, counts were on the order of 2 in a wash. The rationale is, by hitting them 3 times, each time we got the majority of the phoretic mites, then the next batch would come out of the cells just in time to meet the next blast of OA. We basically tried to keep OA crystals in the hive for the entire two weeks, which should make a huge dent in the mites, and totally pre-empt the explosive growth phase in late July to early August timeframe.

The bees we put to bed this fall are the best looking bees we have ever put to bed in the fall. they got another 3 rounds of OA after they came home, and I got a lot of zero counts after that. We piled on the feed and I finally have hives looking like you folks on the prairies, with bees on 10 frames going into winter (never seen that here before). My big complaint right now, I was using the little pan style vaporizer, so even using the lawn tractor to provide power, doing 18 to 20 colonies takes considerable time. a minute and a half with power, then another minute without for each stack of boxes. Add another minute for moving between hives, and a couple more when the lawn tractor needs to be moved, it all adds up. Factor in the setup and cleanup, blasting 20 that way takes 2 hours. This is why I'm watching and reading carefully about folks experience with the blowers, I'm going to purchase one of the smaller blowers (12v type) this winter. I expect the colony count to be up at 30 next summer, and with that unit, I should be able to go and do them all in half an hour. The smaller units run around the 500 price point, if I save 3 hives in a season, paid off.

Last year we got a little lax in dealing with mites, paid the price this spring when I bought packages to replace them. My goal is to turn that around, i wanna be like JM, selling bees in the spring, not buying them. And if the bees do well this winter like I think they will, I'll be on that side of the fence in the spring coming, seller of bees, not a buyer.


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## grozzie2

Ian said:


> But ya, I agree with the math, I have to be aware of which side of the equation im going to pay on.


I think the big difference would be, those round tubes dont come with winter risk attached. Doesn't matter how clean your colonies are going into the shed in your case, winter brings with it risks.



> I have been offered trial on another device , looks interesting, and Gerry, you will be able to justify this one too :thumbsup:


Which one is that ? I've been looking at various units. The lega looks interesting, but requires 110V for the heat gun. I like the concept Heinz has with his, hooks up to 12V which is easier to manage, just drive the lawn tractor to the hive stands. No need to fuss with extension cords and / or generators if we are out of reach for the 110V. that's going to be a bigger deal for us next summer, we are going to have another yard where there is no access to power at all. Kinda thinking I can run the 12V unit off the fencer battery out there. I know there are reports of problems with his earlier units, but, he does stand behind his products, and I expect those kinks will be worked out. But I'm probably a bit biased, I've met Heinz and had a tour of his setup. I always feel better about spending $$$ if the profits on the sale are going to somebody I know.


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## clyderoad

grozzie2>> your post #49 is thoroughly thought out and informative, thanks.


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## zhiv9

I would be hesitant to recommend the Lega unit. It kills mites, but seemingly not as successfully as people report the pan type - particularly not with brood present. Sometimes I get a drop of 2% or better, but it isn't very consistent. I am looking at finishing off with OA dribble in most of the yards since 3+ treatments isn't taking them down to zero. Like the vmVaporizer, it too has a learning curve to get consistent think white vapour. I'd like to see to see some hard data from someone using the JB700. Here are some current results from this fall from 3 of my yards:

Yard 1
Starting mite level: avg 6.4% - max 8%/min 2%
After 1 treatment: avg 9.5% - max 12%/min 2%
After 2 treatments: avg 8.2% - max 12%/min 5%
After 3 treatments: avg 4.2% - max 6%/min 1.3%
After 4 treatments: avg 2.7% - max 5.7%/min 1%

Yard 2
Starting mite level: avg 2.4% - max 3.2%/min 2%
After 1 treatment: didn't have time to test
After 2 treatments: avg 3% - max 10%/min 1%
After 3 treatments: avg 1.1% - max 2%/min 0.3%

Yard 3
Starting mite level: avg 4.9% - max 7.4%/min 3.4%
After 1 treatment: avg 6.75% - max 10.3%/min 3.3%
After 2 treatments: avg 4% - max 6%/min 1.7%


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## pleasantvalley

My only regret is that I have but 2 thumbs up to give Jean-Marc. I also have heard of a few copycat machines in the works. It's no wonder companies are hesitant to supply new products to the bee industry or register new strips. Why go through the work with apivar if guys are going to the hardware store for Taktic for example. We don't like honey buyers squeezing us, so why turn around and do the same for a guy trying to get a business going?

I was even a bit critical of the guy, Ed, not getting units shipped out fast enough....well of course, I need things yesterday just like everyone else. I don't know how long these things have been on the market or if he was prepared for the demand. I encouraged him to get 10-20 units out for sale through Beemaid. I'm sure they'd be snapped up on arrival.

Some guys are already treating spring and fall with apivar. 2 of these units pay for themselves in year 1 vs a fall treatment of strips and perhaps we can delay resistance by doing it.


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## grozzie2

zhiv9 said:


> Here are some current results from this fall from 3 of my yards:


What is the timeframe between those treatments ? 

Part of my big 'aha' moment when I was doing the mite reproduction math was realizing the achilles heel of the OA method and sampling when there is drone brood present. If the population is doubling every 12 days, that's a 6% increase on a daily basis. So the real question in this case, how long does the OA stay viable in the hive ? At any given time we can expect roughly 20% of the mite population to be phoretic. My logic for the schedule I used, go in today, get the mites that are phoretic now. Over the next 4 days, a bunch more will emerge, so if I did a wash at that point (day 5), I expect to see a higher count than just before I blasted them with OA, those mites haven't been exposed to it yet, they are the ones that emerged after we hit them. The important thing is, I killed off the vast majority of the mites that were preparing to enter cells over the next 4 days at the time of the blast. So when I go back for day 5, I'm getting the mites that emerged after the last blast and are now in various stages of preparing to enter cells. In terms of checking for wether or not it's working, we dont expect to see dropping wash counts for 18 days (the full mite reproduction cycle) after the first blast of OA if they are reproducing in the drone brood, or 14 days if there is only worker brood present.

If indeed it is working, what I would expect to see for my summer time knock down. On day one, blast them. If I see a hundred mites drop from that blast, then on day 5 blast them again. I expect 125 to drop from that blast, those are the ones that emerged over the last 4 days, and if I wash at that point, I expect a higher number than the previous wash. Same again on day 10, expect over 150 to drop from that blast, and a wash would be yet a higher number, and again the numbers go up for a blast on day 15. If I go back on day 20 then and wash, this is the one that tells me it has worked, because those are the mites that survived and emerged after the first blast of OA. If you are doing OA with brood present, the mistake is expecting a wash 5 days after OA to show a lower number, that doesn't jive with the mite reproduction cycle, what you are measuring at that point is what was under cappings and safe from the first blast.

I did the 3 blasts of oa on 5 day spacing, but, did not do the counts at 20 days because by that time the bees were moved up the hill into fireweed and had supers stacked on them. I am pretty confident it would have showed low numbers because when I brought them home a few weeks later, the numbers were still very low.

I guess that's the part I didn't make clear enough in the math post. Using subsequent OA hits with brood present, it's a mistake to expect a reduced count in a wash sooner than 20 days after the first blast of vapor, and the key would be to home in on the 4 to 5 days of phoretic time for killing them, dont go longer than 5 days between hits, then measure your result 5 days after the last hit.


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## jean-marc

I dunno Zhiv... you measured ... varroa are reducing. We all want the silver bullet but, it is what it is. You did your homework. You measured , treated and ket measuring and treating. Maybe now that they are broodless, I would think in Barries, a good puff of smoke will do it.

Pleasantvalley:

I encouraged Ed to come to the AGM. He wants too but busy. Anyways I gave him Getire's phone number (she coordinates the vendors amongst many other tasks) and the Fantasyland phone number. It is always easier to sell things when you can touch and smell them etc... talk to the guys and so on and so forth. Te had gotten into a dispute with a partner so things were on hold for sometimes but are now back on track.

Ian: I am pretty sure that varroa will tremble in fear when they hear the airhose connceting to the gun...lol. It still amazes me that this super cheap product is deadly to varroa and even in cases of abusive volumes of smoke, the bees handle it very well.

Jean-Marc

P.S.- We just got 2 loads of bees back from the prairies. We will smoke them 2 more times. They are broodless now. That will reduce varroa population close to zero. Pretty sure the bees will figure it is spring here. They will do 1 generation immediately before they figure oops, ain't spring yet, so I want to bring varroa down to zero. Likely a Saturday and Tuesdat treatment. Load number three arrives tonite or early tomorrow.
A partial load came back 2 weeks ago and they had gotten 4 treatments in 18 days. We only checked 10 hives with averages a little better than 1%... 2 crazy hives had 17 and 15 mites respectively, so that kept our average up. I treated them twice but waited a bit too long. The bees had started to brood in our balmy weather. I had lent a gun to a neighbor and the new one arrived a bit later than I had hoped. I think the day we treated since their return was the day that they were going to seal brood. Not sure if that kills varroa that is under the larvae. Not sure if the larvae will shelter it from the oxalic smoke.

Firt the 2 oxalic applications and move them to winter yards, give them the last drench of fumigillin, tarp them. We then move on to the local bees. Remove thymol, drench them tarp and start some oxalic.I will keep a guy all winter and maybe a second for November. Will send the other 3 home in 10-12 days.


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## Ian

I think if we get tomorrow without rain my apiary should be completely treated. Moving into the nucs now. I've been busy with other projects on the farm, so Carrie has been treating by herself. I asked her if mention of a second round would make her shutter, she said, lets kill those bastard mites lol

I will do some washes on Sat to see if there has been an improvement


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## Bradley_Bee

Question ; , Are you guys lifting the lid after treatment to let the vapor dissipate out the top?


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## Ian

Bradley_Bee said:


> Question ; , Are you guys lifting the lid after treatment to let the vapor dissipate out the top?


I'm not doing anything other than blasting into the hive. 
The vapour lingers for a while after treatment


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## pleasantvalley

Bradley_Bee said:


> Question ; , Are you guys lifting the lid after treatment to let the vapor dissipate out the top?


My usage in Canada would certainly be different that yours. Our bees are already broodless and wrapped. We run the vaporizer until it starts boiling out the top winter entrance.

Randy Oliver's 2016 presentation slides on oxalic are here and here is the paper cited in that presentation.


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## jean-marc

Bradley: I think you may have gotten that impression from an old you tube. You want the oxalic smoke to sublimate back into crystals. The smoke will become fine crystals in the colony and coat all the surfaces. You want to keep the smoke in, best you can. In a mimute or two, no more smoke, it has turned back into a solid.

Jean-Marc


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## zhiv9

jean-marc said:


> I dunno Zhiv... you measured ... varroa are reducing. We all want the silver bullet but, it is what it is. You did your homework. You measured , treated and ket measuring and treating. Maybe now that they are broodless, I would think in Barries, a good puff of smoke will do it.


I guess I was expecting it to be more effective. It is pretty clear that it doesn't have a lot of value if there is more than a little brood present. Next season I'll be looking to get the mite levels down further with something formic based before using OAV as a cleanup to help with re-infestation.


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## zhiv9

grozzie2 said:


> What is the timeframe between those treatments ?


4-7 days depending on the weather.



grozzie2 said:


> Using subsequent OA hits with brood present, it's a mistake to expect a reduced count in a wash sooner than 20 days after the first blast of vapor, and the key would be to home in on the 4 to 5 days of phoretic time for killing them, dont go longer than 5 days between hits, then measure your result 5 days after the last hit.


It makes sense and my results basically demonstrate that. Unfortunately 20 days is often too long to wait to get a real reduction in mite levels. For example "Yard 1" hit avg mite wash levels of nearly 10% in the midst of treating and about 30% of the yard crashed/depopulated to the point where they had to combined with other hives. In hindsight, I should have put a MAQS strip or 2 on them when they were at 6% with significant brood present.


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## snl

Bradley_Bee said:


> Question ; , Are you guys lifting the lid after treatment to let the vapor dissipate out the top?


Why would you do that? The object is to keep the vapors IN the hive.


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## camero7

> Which one is that ? I've been looking at various units. The lega looks interesting, but requires 110V for the heat gun. I like the concept Heinz has with his, hooks up to 12V which is easier to manage, just drive the lawn tractor to the hive stands. No need to fuss with extension cords and / or generators if we are out of reach for the 110V. that's going to be a bigger deal for us next summer, we are going to have another yard where there is no access to power at all. Kinda thinking I can run the 12V unit off the fencer battery out there. I know there are reports of problems with his earlier units, but, he does stand behind his products, and I expect those kinks will be worked out. But I'm probably a bit biased, I've met Heinz and had a tour of his setup. I always feel better about spending $$$ if the profits on the sale are going to somebody I know.


I got the new gun from Heinz yesterday afternoon. Here are some photos. there are some changes, the acid tray is now permanently attached to the housing with clips and cement. Some changes in the wiring and the input wire that was breaking is now cemented in and seems like it will be fine. Raining today but I'll try it out Sunday when the rain stops.


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## Ben Little

For what it is, it is pricey, but if you save 12 to 20 hives you have paid for the unit... if you do not use Apivar because you are using this unit on a thousand hives 2 strips each... $5500. Again you have paid for it in one season. You can spend your time fooling around trying to save the $4500 and still spend say $2000 and then pay again because you did your treatments too late and consequently loose more colonies or you can show your support to the guy who came up with a pretty good system to kill mites pretty quickly and relatively priced. It's a choice. I had a neighbor who wanted to copy this and have it made in China, I discouraged him and did not bring my gun. After all the inventor does deserve to earn some money from this. For sure he is not getting rich. It is likely a very good week-end job. Not sure he could survive if this were a fulltime gig... just not enough commercial beekeepers who can fork out $4500.


Jean-Marc


I am curious to know if you have stopped using Apivar ? I am willing to buy one of these units and was going to this fall but I invested into more boxes and frames instead, hoping to hit 550-600 colonies in the spring. I use doubles and some singles for winter and I have to use 4 strips of Apivar in the spring in my doubles, so it is very expensive for me at the size operation we have. So if you are saying that it is possible to go without Apivar, I would love to hear some success stories  I have noticed them to be ineffective this year and used Formic in the fall to get them under control. I like the unit but would like to have it more user friendly rather than screwing with the temp to get it to work properly. I hope the "improvements" they are making is helping with that. I love to do things right the first time, so this is why I would rather invest in the best.


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## Allen Martens

Ian said:


> Had a problem with the device not fogging consistently and spitting OA out the front. Could not figure it out.


 I had a similar problem last week. Thanks to you Ian I solved the problem. I had begun to put the VM down horizontally between yards and got build up within the machine. The VM must never go horizontal and needs to keep air moving through at all times so OA doesn't sublimate up the tube. Last yard I got to the first load (I usually do the whole baster tube) gave 19 hives an 8 second dose. All having nice crystal deposits on the bottom board and the VM smoking good the whole time. Almost nothing coming out during cleaning the next day. 6000+ plus doses and I'm beginning to get the hang of the VM lol.


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## Allen Martens

jean-marc said:


> You can spend your time fooling around trying to save the $4500 and still spend say $2000 and then pay again because you did your treatments too late and consequently loose more colonies


This is the biggest weakness in the VM. As things stand with the current design, if it goes down at the beginning of your treatment window, no matter how small the problem, you missed the window. By the time the VM is sent for repairs and returned it's all over.


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## zhiv9

Ben Little said:


> So if you are saying that it is possible to go without Apivar, I would love to hear some success stories  I have noticed them to be ineffective this year and used Formic in the fall to get them under control. I like the unit but would like to have it more user friendly rather than screwing with the temp to get it to work properly. I hope the "improvements" they are making is helping with that.


FWIW, I think it is prudent to look at OAV as a fall cleanup treatment, not your primary fall treatment. You will still need to put formic or something else on them in late August or early September that is effective when the bees have lots of brood. I am not sure how much of a fall flow you have in Nova Scotia, but here the bees really brood up on goldenrod.


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## Allen Martens

Grozzie2 and zhiv9

I ran into the same problem with elevated mite numbers this fall as well. Had too much confidence in my mid August numbers, did a couple of rounds of mite wipes in late Aug/early Sept and thought I would be fine until Oct OAV. Mite levels got away on me by Oct. Levels will need to be very low going into summer without strips.

Just beginning my 3rd round of OAV today using the VM and will test next week. Should give a good pictures of OAV effectiveness in Manitoba in Oct.

I have been having difficult time getting the mite numbers down in my nuc. What seemed like a brilliant design a couple of years ago with two 2 in screened holes at each end make it difficult to do OAV. After 5 treatments in Sept and early Oct the mite levels have not decreased but remained constant. Surprisingly they still had a lot of brood in the middle of Oct. They got one more treatment this week and one more next week. Hopefully that knocks the levels down.


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## CrazyTalk

Ian said:


> This device is so simple, I can't justify a $4800 purchase of it....I am handy with a welder, give me a hot plate.
> But the VM works simply amazingly well and gets my overwhelming stamp of approval
> 
> Now if the OA kills the mites, time will tell me, washes will be done this weekend


That's my opinion on this thing too - probably works great, but the price is absurd (I think its $3600 now). 

It looks like about $150 worth of stainless, and maybe $150 worth of electronics. For that sort of price it should be all sanitary fittings instead of weld joints (so it's easily cleanable, repairable, etc) and should have pretty much overnight support, and easily swappable parts.


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## zhiv9

Allen Martens said:


> What seemed like a brilliant design a couple of years ago with two 2 in screened holes at each end make it difficult to do OAV.


For nucs, I use a divided box with 2 1" holes on each end of the box. One is the entrance and I screen the other. Last fall I started taping the the screened holes off when the temperatures dropped. They seem to only need the extra ventilation in the the summer and taping the hole off makes OAV treatment easier.


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## jean-marc

Allen, as far as having all my eggs in one vmVaporizer basket goes, I now own 2. Thinking I should have a third in case one of the 2 go down. I have labour to do the job now, soon they leave.

We see the same thing with nucs or any hive that has a fresh or fresher queen. They lay well and longer into the year thanp a 2 year old queen. It stands to reason that varroa numbers are hard to get down. The only way the numbers really go down is if they are broodless. If you have the yellow bees they stay broody well into october. Takes them a couple weeks of snow before they catch on. Then finally she stops egg laying. I can see it being tricky over there with the weather. By the time they are all broodless, Mother Nature can dump 1 foot a snow making access near impossible. 

We had bees come back from Alberta yesterday and today and I will spend a bit of time checking to see if there is any brood left. Last we looked about 15-16 days ago we had 2-3 patches the size of a hand. I would expect zero brood, but i will look. One or two more vaporization on those and we are good.

Definitely MAQS or thymol in that mid August to early September window. You don't need to kill them all just enough to make it to the cleanup round of oxalic. For the most part I was able to make it to September without any spring treatments. I did do some late spring treatments because I was not sure that levels would still be low in Sept. Time will tell if that holds true over the next few seasons.

Jean-Marc


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## Maybee Apiaries

camero7 said:


> I got the new gun from Heinz yesterday afternoon. Here are some photos. there are some changes, the acid tray is now permanently attached to the housing with clips and cement. Some changes in the wiring and the input wire that was breaking is now cemented in and seems like it will be fine. Raining today but I'll try it out Sunday when the rain stops.


I also received the new modified model. Done about 400 treatments so far, with no problems. 
I do notice, that after the heating pan cycles and turns off(red light on), there is oxalic left in the pan that turns back into solid. Trying to use this a second time results in the heat kicking out before it hits sublimation temp again. I usually dump out the leftovers and start with a fresh dose. 
I compliment Heinz and Ron in replacing the original unit. I recommend this vapourizer for beekeepers with up to 300 hives.


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## zhiv9

Maybee Apiaries said:


> I do notice, that after the heating pan cycles and turns off(red light on), there is oxalic left in the pan that turns back into solid. Trying to use this a second time results in the heat kicking out before it hits sublimation temp again. I usually dump out the leftovers and start with a fresh dose.


This is similar to the Lega - the OA will solidify in the cup between uses. It is more trouble than the OA is worth to try to get the leftovers to sublimate. It is much better to dump it out and start fresh.


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## grozzie2

Maybee Apiaries said:


> I also received the new modified model. Done about 400 treatments so far, with no problems.


That's what I like to hear. I held off buying one earlier this year after reading on beesource about folks having problems with the unit. I ordered one this morning. the big thing for me is time, much more so than all the rest of the issues. If I can head into the back lot and do the whole works in well under an hour, then all is good, because I'm far more likely to keep on a schedule that way. It becomes a simple quick job after dinner instead of one of those 'a couple hours' saturday jobs. We do believe the colonies are looking good right now, but, when it arrives next week I'll take it out back and try it out, get my wife to take a video for folks wondering about the unit.



zhiv9 said:


> This is similar to the Lega - the OA will solidify in the cup between uses.


I saw the exact same thing even with the little pan vaporizer, after doing a few hives there is some solid stuff in the pan, and it just works a lot better if you scrape it clean when that starts to show up. The other thing I dislike about using the pan style wand, there are inevitably a few cooked bees in the thing when it comes out. We used it for the first time last January, and on the second hive when the pan came out I saw some cooked bees, one of which looked suspiciously like a queen. It wasn't a huge surprise then when in March we started pulling up a few frames to check brood, that hive was full of drone brood. Lotsa bees, but, a frame and a half of drone brood in March is for all practical purposes a dead colony, they just dont know it yet. This wont happen if we are blowing the OA in.


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## JSL

Perhaps I am too much of a pessimist in this arena, but reading this thread reminds me of what beekeepers sounded like when Apistan came out, then Check-Mite, then XY and Z... Keep in mind, Varroa are fighting for survival and nothing fights harder than when it is backed into a corner. I do not know how or when, but my money is on oxalic failing at some point. I was not surprised to see efforts of combining formic and oxalic. It has been shared before, but plan ahead and rotate treatments, especially if you find something very cheap and effective.


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## jean-marc

It is easy enough to rotate treatments if you have several at your disposal. As I recall the regulators "gave" us Apistan, when it failed, Checkmite, when that failed had to wait a couple of years and by the third they gave us Apivar. That might be failing. I keep hearing different guys from different parts of the country not satisfied with the treatment outcome. We had formic early on, but it has always been less than satisfactory. Oxalic was approved NOV 2010 and Thymovar, the only thymol based product registered in Canada was approved July 2010. Unfortunately the regulators handcuffed the industry. We did not have products to rotate. Soon Apivar will fail, Apistan may rise up from the ashes again... It is not easy. Let's hope that oxalic is good for 50 plus years, same with formic, thymol too.

Jean-Marc


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## JSL

jean-marc said:


> It is easy enough to rotate treatments if you have several at your disposal. ... It is not easy. Let's hope that oxalic is good for 50 plus years, same with formic, thymol too.


True enough, it is easy enough to rotate treatments, but unfortunately it seems that once beekeepers find one that works we run it in to the ground. I understand the short term gains.

Jean-Marc, I hope that my pessimism is misplaced, but I think 50 years may be overly optimistic. Keep rotating with vigilance, always changing the game.

My apologies for the tangent, but the tone of the posts just struck me as reminiscent of some of the previous cycles. From my outside perspective, I admire the applied work your provincial apiarists do. It seems as though there is a more efficient flow of treatments from the European market.


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## Ian

1st round Oxalic Acid treat finished. I've done some washes and my mite counts have held static. I'm seeing mite drop but as for my hives overall mite load, it stays unchanged. 
We are conducting a second round treatment In a week.


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## Ian

Joe, "tone of the posts just struck me as reminiscent of some of the previous cycles."
What are you talking about. I'm going to use Apivar up in the next couple of year... then ... I'm hoping to hinge on this Oxalic treatment , because I see no other options. Who cares if this OA treatment is reminiscent of previous cycles, it's nearly all that's left


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## JSL

Ian said:


> Joe, "tone of the posts just struck me as reminiscent of some of the previous cycles."
> What are you talking about. I'm going to use Apivar up in the next couple of year... then ... I'm hoping to hinge on this Oxalic treatment , because I see no other options. Who cares if this OA treatment is reminiscent of previous cycles, it's nearly all that's left


Ian, this response sounds desperate. I know you think farther ahead than this. Would you not be better off with a reduced level of efficacy than little to no efficacy at all? I realize formic, or thymol based products may not offer the same level of control, but are they still used with some confidence in your area?

I get it, some formulation of Amitraz has been the go to treatment of choice. It is/was effective, cheap and easy, but what next? Again, not to be the pessimist, but what if the next best thing does not come along? I am sure many of the innovative beekeepers, such as yourself are already thinking along those line.


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## Fusion_power

It is not quite all that is left. There are still options for breeding bees that are able to handle mites on their own. Jean-Marc mentioned noticing some colonies with natural low mite counts. Mark those colonies and then put them together into a single yard. Check for development of a large productive colony. Check that mite counts at the end of the season are still low. Breed from the best. There are plenty of hurdles to overcome. It can be done!

Even better would be if a group of beekeepers pool their best colonies with low mite counts and have one person manage them in a selection program.


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## Ben Little

For those of you in Canada that purchased one of these units @3600 USD /4800 CAN , what kind of extra fees have you had getting it ? I don't have easy access to the USA border, so it would have to be shipped to my door.


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## Ian

JSL said:


> Ian, this response sounds desperate. I know you think farther ahead than this. Would you not be better off with a reduced level of efficacy than little to no efficacy at all? I realize formic, or thymol based products may not offer the same level of control, but are they still used with some confidence in your area?
> 
> I get it, some formulation of Amitraz has been the go to treatment of choice. It is/was effective, cheap and easy, but what next? Again, not to be the pessimist, but what if the next best thing does not come along? I am sure many of the innovative beekeepers, such as yourself are already thinking along those line.


Answer please...


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## Ian

camero7 said:


> I got the new gun from Heinz yesterday afternoon. Here are some photos. there are some changes, the acid tray is now permanently attached to the housing with clips and cement. Some changes in the wiring and the input wire that was breaking is now cemented in and seems like it will be fine. Raining today but I'll try it out Sunday when the rain stops.


Say Cam, take a video of this device in action. I'd like to see what a 10g dosage look like through that device.


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## camero7

Will do. I'm not going to use it today. 50mph winds here and too cold. I like the bees to be in loose cluster or flying to vaporize them.


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## Ian

camero7 said:


> Will do. I'm not going to use it today. 50mph winds here and too cold. I like the bees to be in loose cluster or flying to vaporize them.


Do you have a respirator? 
If you could, and don't mid the OA waste, and time, could you burn out a 10g dosage on vid?


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## jean-marc

At the border Ben, when filling out thr B3 form, where it says Tariff Treatment- answer 10- mostfavored Nation, and when they ask for a description- I answered Beekeeping equipment, long answer short no duties, 5% of GST. I think I am filling it out correctly. The CBSA have not corrected me in a long time, so I think I got it right.

I can only imagine what some CBSA agent will think should he open the package " Now what in the hell is this? Hmmm, looks like it's gonna be one wild party..."

Jean-Marc


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## Ben Little

jean-marc said:


> At the border Ben, when filling out thr B3 form, where it says Tariff Treatment- answer 10- mostfavored Nation, and when they ask for a description- I answered Beekeeping equipment, long answer short no duties, 5% of GST. I think I am filling it out correctly. The CBSA have not corrected me in a long time, so I think I got it right.
> 
> I can only imagine what some CBSA agent will think should he open the package " Now what in the hell is this? Hmmm, looks like it's gonna be one wild party..."
> 
> Jean-Marc


Thanks for that.


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## pleasantvalley

Ben Little said:


> For those of you in Canada that purchased one of these units @3600 USD /4800 CAN , what kind of extra fees have you had getting it ? I don't have easy access to the USA border, so it would have to be shipped to my door.


I had it mailed and it's currently sitting at the Canada Post customs building purgatory in Vancouver and has been for 4 days now. Phoning up CP won't get you anywhere, they say they can't intervene. Ed can ship it UPS if you want. My past experience with UPS is they will broker it for you and charge through the nose for it.


From what I read, you can ask CP for a refund on some of the duty. Until I see what I get charged, I won't know what forms to fill out though.


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## jean-marc

The reason I had it sent to Sumas, Washington is the very reason Pleasantvalley describes. I was unsure of how Canada Post or the customs people inside the country would react to the vmVaporizer. I figured I had way better changes of getting my hands on my unit quickly if I did the brokerage myself rather than leave it in the hands of others. Fortunately I am only 20 minutes from the border.

Jean-Marc


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## camero7

Ian said:


> Do you have a respirator?
> If you could, and don't mid the OA waste, and time, could you burn out a 10g dosage on vid?



Will do


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## Vance G

My replacement was said to be mailed to me eight days ago. I am hoping to see it soon.


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## zhiv9

pleasantvalley said:


> Ed can ship it UPS if you want. My past experience with UPS is they will broker it for you and charge through the nose for it.


You can specify a different broker to UPS. Clearit.ca charges a flat rate $50. If it is made in the US there should be no duty, just gst/HST. For beekeeping equipment there is an extra $10 fee for CFIA.


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## mbc

Ian said:


> , because I see no other options. Who cares if this OA treatment is reminiscent of previous cycles, it's nearly all that's left


Thymol is easily applied and cheap, works better than oav when theres brood, is organic and has little residue issues. Isn't thymol with a later oav when they're broodless a viable option?
Hoping oxalic is still effective in 50 yrs is futile imho, surely things will have moved on by then and beekeepers will have a whole new set of problems to deal with.


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## Ian

mbc said:


> Thymol is easily applied and cheap, works better than oav when theres brood, is organic and has little residue issues. Isn't thymol with a later oav when they're broodless a viable option?
> Hoping oxalic is still effective in 50 yrs is futile imho, surely things will have moved on by then and beekeepers will have a whole new set of problems to deal with.


One step at a time
Are you hanging your hat on Thymol?, 
Have you checked your counts on them lately?


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## Maybee Apiaries

According to a couple websites I've seen, levels as high as 10% are considered acceptable this time of year, due to hives being bloodless, and all mites being phoretic. Finding 30 mites in a sample any time is alarming, but 4or 5 % in late October might not be that critical, especially if Apivar is going in early spring.


----------



## mbc

Ian said:


> One step at a time
> Are you hanging your hat on Thymol?,
> Have you checked your counts on them lately?


Yup, thymol does the trick for me. Counts are always still worrying after thymol but I think the buggers must be infertile because they dont rise whereas they carry on climbing with oav whilst theres brood (in my experience)
Oav or trickle mops up any/most survivors later on when they're broodless.


----------



## Ian

So after a Thymol, what are your counts, then the mop up, means what for your ending counts? 

I hear theory, then I hear actual reality. 
The Thymol making them infertile, then the OA to mop up should equal zero at the end game


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## Ian

I have a yard In Thymol too 
Zero difference to date


----------



## Ian

From this post, Facebook posts and my blog you'd all be interested in the feedback I'm getting on this issue 
When push comes to shove, the common thread I'm getting is , it's "blind faith" 
Guys actually monitoring are coming back with "why am I not getting the same results?"


----------



## mbc

I don't count from about now on, and wont count after the winter oxalic, but so far they've gone from lots to not many with two or three thymol treatments commencing early august. 
I seldom find counts of zero in the spring.


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## Ian

I love the honust feedback :thumbsup:


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## mbc

Jean-marc's recent vm counts on here are the only encouraging stats I've read for oav repeated doses while there's brood.


----------



## jean-marc

Generally my counts were low to start with because of some repeated treatments last winter.
Thymol if applied late i.e. is a wasted effort because it is temperature dependant. If applied in mid to late august on the prairies it will work fine. early September is probably ok but at the end of the month not so. If applied oct 1 it will unlikely not work. I don't think this a secret. It is hard on bees and queens but not as hard as varroa. The effects are temporary, as soon as the product is removed all returns to normal pretty quick.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Ian

Ian said:


> I have a yard In Thymol too
> Zero difference to date


I gotta back track on that comment, I just got back the wash sample this morning that I asked Carrie to get for me. 
No mites found in this yard. 4% before OA treatment.


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## grozzie2

Ian said:


> I gotta back track on that comment, I just got back the wash sample this morning that I asked Carrie to get for me.
> No mites found in this yard. 4% before OA treatment.


So are you crediting the thymol, or the OA for reductions in this yard ???


----------



## AstroZomBEE

In august i treated around 500 colonies that had varied levels of mites, counts coming back any where from 4 to 30 per 600 bees. treated with VmVaporizer 4 times, once every 5 days. After treatments mite levels where down to 1.5 mites per 600 bees.


----------



## Ian

grozzie2 said:


> So are you crediting the thymol, or the OA for reductions in this yard ???


Just posted my counts 
The apiary in general was 5-6 frames, whereas the rest of my apiary is 6-8 frames


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## jean-marc

That is what thymol does. It interferes with the pheromones inside the colony. Less egg laying so likely why I an has less population in that yard.

We use that gap between the time the honey is pulled and the time colonies are broodless to treat with the thymol and or MAQS this year. It is like a bridge treatment. We don't have to killevery one of those rascals as much as we would like to, we just want to keep the varroa population from exploding during september into october. Once broodless we are confident thatthe vmVaporizer will do the job. Does it do it with 1 application or 2 or 3? Do we need to try to keep the smoke in? Do we need to give 10 seconds of smoke, 5 or 15? We don't know all these answers. We are trying to figure it out. Until we do we will keep blasting them with smoke, thymol and MAQS. What else is a fellow supposed to do?

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc

Astrozombee:

Good to see some numbers like that. It is encouraging and nice to know that we have another weapon in our arsenal to keep floating.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

It was a painful task but I opened up a couple brood chamber for inspection. Sure enough, they are still hatching out brood. 



My Thymol trial yard must of shut down weeks earlier as they are brood free, and why that yards counts are 0%. And this sporadic brood hatch is why my test counts have been all over the page. Some yards had shut down earlier than others. And I blame those beautiful little darling queens we spent so much time raising. :Thumbsup: ...8 - 9 winter clusters 



This next treatment, which is now planned early next week, during the start of the winter broodless period, should get the rest of them.


----------



## mbc

Is that silver backed bubble wrap as an inner cover?


----------



## Ian

mbc said:


> Is that silver backed bubble wrap as an inner cover?


Yes 
It work perfectly, I leave it on all year. Seals up the tops nicely. Much easier to open lids, I don't get that "queen on the top throwen into the grass somewhere" problems anymore lol


----------



## zhiv9

Ian said:


> It was a painful task but I opened up a couple brood chamber for inspection. Sure enough, they are still hatching out brood.


This has been part of my problem as well. We've had good fall weather with abundant pollen, so the queens were still laying into October. It has taken about 4 treatments to get the level down. I could have probably gotten away with 3 if I had started later when there was less brood.


----------



## Ian

Not a word of a lie, there is more pollen coming in this past week than most of August.


----------



## jean-marc

We have the same issue with queens that were raised in July august and a few september ones. They will lay well into November, maybe December and some never stop. So it is hard to find the perfect sweet spot for thoses ones. I looked at those that came back from Alberta 15-16 days ago. Nice patches of capped brood. We had a pretty good kill on the 2 oxalic applications we did. This stuff seems endless.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Ian, Your smoker looks like it's been working overtime & the mechanic has done a job keeping it going.  well done sir.


----------



## Ian

You don't know the half of it...


----------



## dgl1948

Lots of pollen here as well. There is a lot of second growth canola flowering.


----------



## jim lyon

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ian, Your smoker looks like it's been working overtime & the mechanic has done a job keeping it going.  well done sir.


Any bee truck not carrying a roll of duct tape and a can of WD-40 just isn't properly equipped.


----------



## Bill Russell

Any idea how fast mites drop after treatment?


----------



## jean-marc

Takes about a day to get a good amount, but some start immediately. Seems like the peak drop is at about 48 hours, then it tapers off after about 5 days.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Chip Euliss

I used a full dose of MAQS this spring and my mite loads were unusually low this summer/fall. I did sugar rolls last week and my counts show 2.5% or less. Wife and I did our first treatment with the vmvaporizer yesterday and it took us about 4.5 hours to treat 600 hives. Not too bad for the old folks! I plan to treat at least 2 more times, maybe 3, depending on when the bees ship to CA. I'll check them in mid-January and treat again, if necessary. Took a bit to keep the OA vapors in a dense fog but I got the hang of it after a while. Had a plug I needed to open with the steel cleaning rod but that was probably my fault for loading a dose of OA too early. Overall, I'd give it high marks for ease of use. I took an old pallet and clamped the generator, compressor and filter so they wouldn't move and put the the whole thing in the back of a side-by-side ATV we use around the place.

I did notice that a few bees came out pretty white so guessing they died. I did look back in the hives later in the day and the bees were back to business as usual.


----------



## Bill Russell

Thanks Jean-Marc. Very helpful to know for our situation is. Bees far from home.


----------



## camero7

Ian said:


> Say Cam, take a video of this device in action. I'd like to see what a 10g dosage look like through that device.


I ran the vaporizer today for you, then did 10 hives with it. I'm pleased with the improvements so far. I notice that the vaporizer starts boiling the acid much fasted than the previous one. The unit seems stronger - not sure if it is since it is still in the same shell. The fan has 2 speeds - you'll notice it in the video. Seems to boil the acid more completely but still doesn't completely boil it all. You need to clean out the bowl after you're done. When the higher speed of the fan kicks in the heating element goes off. Easy way to tell when you need to reload. I did 5 hives with each load and seems to have done a good job. time will tell.That is 10 grams according to the scoop I use.


----------



## zhiv9

Here's a short vid of the Lega as well for comparison. As you'll see in the video it takes a couple of taps to get it really smoking. Normally you would see the hives really smoking during treatment and for sometime after, but it was quite windy that day and anything that escaped dissipated pretty quickly.

https://youtu.be/hOlCWeUnelM


----------



## Ian

Thx guys I appreciate the vids 

Here is mine again. Cam and Adam, your 2g dosage looks different than mine. Why the difference? Is mine too hot? As far as I understand my unit has a temp regulator on it 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TqQO_I2KJNo


----------



## hex0rz

Ian said:


> Thx guys I appreciate the vids
> 
> Here is mine again. Cam and Adam, your 2g dosage looks different than mine. Why the difference? Is mine too hot? As far as I understand my unit has a temp regulator on it
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TqQO_I2KJNo


Still have that TIC?

I'd like to to see what the pan is running at ob the jb700 and the vm element as well. I can gun the lega..


----------



## camero7

Wind was blowing about 20mph in my video, the vaporizer puts out a little more than was showing. However, it does not put out as much as yours. I think that may be why the vm gets better results. Just a guess. I did 5 hives, then reloaded and did 5 more. Might not be enough. Getting too cold to do alcohol shakes.


----------



## zhiv9

Ian said:


> Here is mine again. Cam and Adam, your 2g dosage looks different than mine. Why the difference? Is mine too hot? As far as I understand my unit has a temp regulator on it


I think mine looks similar to your when I treat on a less windy day, but it takes a little longer (20+ seconds) to get the hive "smoking" in the same way. One of my complaints with it is that its fussy process figuring out how to get consistent performance. I think all of these products could use a second generation revisit.


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## pleasantvalley

2 units showed up in the mail today for those keeping score and unable to make border runs. It was 12 days from the time Ed mailed them (Saturday) to pick up. Fees owing was $33.65 per unit. He has them marked at $475 value for duty (I did not ask him to do this).


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## jean-marc

Wow, best keep that info to yourself. The bureaucrats love to feel important and "right a wrong" 
Good luck with the new units. I guess best to get her done before the snow flies. Bee should be good and broodless by now. The ones that we checked that came back not exactly a week ago were broodless. We did not check many but they were broodless.

Jean-Marc


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## B&E

JSL said:


> Ian, this response sounds desperate. I know you think farther ahead than this. Would you not be better off with a reduced level of efficacy than little to no efficacy at all? I realize formic, or thymol based products may not offer the same level of control, but are they still used with some confidence in your area?
> 
> I get it, some formulation of Amitraz has been the go to treatment of choice. It is/was effective, cheap and easy, but what next? Again, not to be the pessimist, but what if the next best thing does not come along? I am sure many of the innovative beekeepers, such as yourself are already thinking along those line.



It is my understanding that mites cannot develop resistance to treatments like OA and formic. Am I wrong? I could develop a resistance to drugs like antibiotics , but not to burning my skin or lungs with acid. It would burn every time, every day for 100 years. Ie: I don't swell when I'm stung by a bee, but it hurts exactly like it did 20 years ago.


----------



## pleasantvalley

I don't have much faith in Hopguard II right now, but is everyone else in this thread assuming Bayvoral is DOA? Does anyone know if we'll have it for spring or if it will work?


----------



## Daniel Y

B&E said:


> It is my understanding that mites cannot develop resistance to treatments like OA and formic. Am I wrong? I could develop a resistance to drugs like antibiotics , but not to burning by skin or lungs with acid. It would burn every time, every day for 100 years. Ie: I don't swell when I'm stung by the bee, but it hurts exactly like it did 20 years ago.


I would not say they cannot. What can be said is they have not. and OA has been in use against mites for a very long time.


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## jean-marc

I did not know Canada was trying to register Bayvarol. Don't the bureaucrats want to wait another 12 months until everybody agrees that Apivar does not work and that beekeepers loose thousands upon thousands of hives, then they will agree "yup, we should do something about this". Let's have an emergency registration and 6 months later it get's approved.

Jean-Marc


----------



## pleasantvalley

jean-marc said:


> I did not know Canada was trying to register Bayvarol. Don't the bureaucrats want to wait another 12 months until everybody agrees that Apivar does not work and that beekeepers loose thousands upon thousands of hives, then they will agree "yup, we should do something about this". Let's have an emergency registration and 6 months later it get's approved.
> 
> Jean-Marc


http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/cps-spc/pest/part/consultations/_prd2016-29/prd2016-29-eng.php

I haven't been in the game long enough to know why no one had the foresight 25 years ago to have all these strips on the market at once. Probably would have kept us out of this pickle.


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## Ian

Or F'ed right up
Restraint over constraint


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## JSL

B&E said:


> It is my understanding that mites cannot develop resistance to treatments like OA and formic. Am I wrong? I could develop a resistance to drugs like antibiotics , but not to burning my skin or lungs with acid. It would burn every time, every day for 100 years. Ie: I don't swell when I'm stung by a bee, but it hurts exactly like it did 20 years ago.


B&E,
The short answer is I don’t know… Varroa are not that distant from honey bees. Remember, we are trying to kill a “bug on a bug”. My original comments were based in the frenzy around the use of oxalic, which sets up a prime set of selection pressures for resistance to develop, i.e. widespread use of oxalic with multiple and sometimes intense doses. Not all Varroa are killed initially, so there is a portion surviving, for whatever the reason may be, but this presents opportunities for the Varroa. I am not a betting person, but I think it would be safe to lay my money on Varroa for this scenario.


----------



## camero7

> Wind was blowing about 20mph in my video, the vaporizer puts out a little more than was showing. However, it does not put out as much as yours. I think that may be why the vm gets better results.


Another beekeeper recommended I post this observation I shared with him about my vaporizer

"I will stop treating when the light goes out and refill the bowl. When I ran it yesterday and really observed it, the unit puts out very little vapor once the fan speeds up. I am glad I ran it like that and observed it… learned something."


----------



## Vance G

I was out with my freshly repaired jb700 and treated my little outfit and have serious vapor volume envy of the varrox. My best performance was achieved by putting the 10 mg dose in running it until that dose was fully consumed. In my dreams I could not get the smoke out of this that the varrox puts out' If you try to load up the pan so it lasts long enough to do more hives, you end up maybe getting four done in this units small way and end up with hardened grey crud bubbles in the pan. The 10mg dose I could get smoke ( some) coming out of the opposite end ofthe hive on three colonies. Doing it that way seemed to be fastest by far. It took me two hours to do my fifty hives. It will have to do. I guess for the same money roughly I could have got the lega and I need a generator anyway.
Ts


----------



## wildbranch2007

Vance G said:


> I was out with my freshly repaired jb700 and treated my little outfit and have serious vapor volume envy of the varrox.
> Ts


but doesn't that make sense, the varrox doesn't have a fan on it, the fan runs slower when the heating element is on, then speeds up when the element turns off, if you slowed the fan down more you would get more vapor? then the red light would go out sooner? must be a solution hope some one smarter than me figures it out.


----------



## Vance G

No, the varrox is producing a full price differential more smoke than the pop gun JB. The strength of the fan or speed is only a real factor when there is no place for the displaced air in the hive to go. Then smoke will come out the wrong way thru the running fan. I am basically smoking down. I have 1" holes bored in my top hive body and the smoke eventually comes out thru the narrow bottom entrance, but in the wind, and it is always windy here, the vapor can be hard to see.


----------



## snl

JSL said:


> Not all Varroa are killed initially, so there is a portion surviving, for whatever the reason may be, but this presents opportunities for the Varroa. I am not a betting person, but I think it would be safe to lay my money on Varroa for this scenario.


That's true but 20+ years used in Europe w/o resistance does say something........


----------



## acbz

Heinz said he's all sold out of Thymol strips for 2016... Looks like Thymol to the rescue now that apivar appears to be losing effectiveness.


----------



## wildbranch2007

acbz said:


> Heinz said he's all sold out of Thymol strips for 2016... Looks like Thymol to the rescue now that apivar appears to be losing effectiveness.


gee apivar has only been legal for a couple of years in the USA, how could all these other countries have used it for the last 20 years before losing effectiveness:waiting:


----------



## camero7

:no:


----------



## grozzie2

Just a follow up on 'the other one'. I ordered my JB700 last Friday, it arrived on Monday. When I went out to take the video others were asking for, ran into a minor snag. Directions say, hook it up to 12V, then turn on the heater. Green led should come on. Red led will come on when it's up to temperature, and at that point the heater turns off. Mine didn't do that, red led came on right away, and it never heated up. It was just before 6pm when I realized this, so, I fired an email off to Heinz asking what to do next, I expected a response some time the next day.

At about 9pm monday night, my phone rang, it was Heinz. He started the conversation by confirming my power source, which in this case was the battery on my lawn tractor. He wanted to make sure battery was fully charged, it draws 12 amps and a low charge wont do it. After confirming I had a good power source, he had me open it up and we checked the wiring. His diagnosis was, thermostat has failed, and a replacement would be sent out the next morning. A problem with the unit was a bit of a disappointment, but, that kind of customer service is why we have always liked dealing with Heinz. A replacement thermostat showed up in the mailbox this morning.

Replacing the thermostat was a bit of fiddling, mainly because I didn't have needle nose pliers handy. If I had needle nose in the office, it would have been a 10 second job, but I got it replaced. I just went out to the lawn tractor and hooked it up again to confirm it's working. Works just the way it's supposed to, fired up with a green light, then red came on when it turned the heater off.

For those thinking this thing has a 2 speed fan, it doesn't, it's a single speed fan. When the heater turns on, it puts a large draw on the line and that causes a bit of a voltage sag, which slows the fan a bit. Fan speeds back up when the heater turns off because voltage comes back up when the unit sheds that 12 amp heater load.

I'll pass on a couple things Heinz told me when we were on the phone. One important detail, if you put to much oxalic in the tray, then it may not all sublimate in one run, and leaves a white crust on the bottom of the tray. If you leave that in, then it will insulate the next load of oxalic from the tray, and you wont get proper sublimation. Mine came with a sticker on the side saying to only use 5g per load. In conversation with Heinz he said that will fully vaporize 4 hives if you go directly from one to the next while is blowing. If you see vapour coming out of the top, then it will be everywhere in the hive, and that's 'good enough', no need to put more in on any single go around.

It's pouring rain right now, so, I'm not headed out back to try this on hives this afternoon. Hopefully this weekend.


----------



## Ian

>>If you see vapour coming out of the top, then it will be everywhere in the hive, and that's 'good enough', no need to put more in on any single go around.<<

Is it? Recommended is 2g, most guys try to target that dosage. I know a guy upping to 4g dosage.

At what point does the OA start to burn the bees. There has got to be a threshold somewhere. With dribble that point is more certain


----------



## Ben Little

It seems that the VMV is the right tool for the job. I don't quite understand why there are 2 types of the same unit being sold, 1 of them referring as upgraded and has a wide mouth, is it actually being rebuilt and resold from the OEM ? 
I tend to research things to death before buying them these days because I have had too many bad experiences with junk in my past and I like to buy the best quality I can, if that means spending a bit more money than so be it.

*Is this something I should wait on or has all the bugs been worked out ??*


----------



## Ian

I do believe, looking from this side of Facebook, that there has been a falling out...

"Just a small update...
There's a competitor that tried to "upgrade" the vmVaporizer.
We're proud to say that our current model works just as good as it did before and does not look like that.
As a company we're still working on improving our Vaporizer's durability, speed and consistency...you may actually want to keep an eye out for our new posts!

Please deal with vmVaporizer directly if you'd like to place an order.

Website vmvaporizer.com
Email [email protected]
Phone 916-833-1823 (we accept texts/calls anytime)"


----------



## Ian

The unit I'm using is pretty well what it is. Hard to up grade simplicity. Infact it's so simple I'm having trouble with the price tag still.... 
Ben, the VM gets a :thumbsup: from me


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## Ian

....the novelty of treating with OA wears off after 2 yards ...,


----------



## Ben Little

Ian said:


> The unit I'm using is pretty well what it is. Hard to up grade simplicity. Infact it's so simple I'm having trouble with the price tag still....
> Ben, the VM gets a :thumbsup: from me


I can't seem to get my hands on one to try out, so I will just have to break down and get one, I was hoping to get one this fall but it's looking like Spring treatment with it for me. I just can't shell out the bucks at the moment, have to sell some more honey first. I just wish there was a Canadian supplier so I didn't have to deal with the border.


----------



## Ian

If your looking at next year, hang on for a couple months to see what comes down the pipe in regards to options


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## JSL

snl said:


> That's true but 20+ years used in Europe w/o resistance does say something........


You are correct, that does say something…. The clock is ticking. Usage in Europe is light compared to the use and exposer that will/is occurring here for commercial beekeeping.


----------



## zhiv9

Ben Little said:


> ...but it's looking like Spring treatment with it for me....I just wish there was a Canadian supplier so I didn't have to deal with the border.


Unless you can get into your yards before the hives start to brood up, OAV is a poor spring treatment. Pretty much all the mites are hidden in the first few rounds of brood and OAV is only effective against phoretic mites. I would guess that you would be looking at treating 4 or more times to be effective. 

The border isn't a big deal you just need a broker. PM me if you need a hand with that.


----------



## JSL

Anyone working on a mechanized feed system? Can the oxalic be put in solution? I would assume that would make some sort of mechanized delivery more accurate.


----------



## grozzie2

Ok, the rain stopped. I went out and did our bees. I did 18 colonies in 15 minutes, then stopped to take some photos and shoot a video.

The theory of operation with the JB700, heater turns off when the pan approaches the breakdown temp for OA, and it'll turn on again after the pan cools a bit. I loaded up a 5 gram load, took off the respirator so I could narrate a bit, then fired it up and stepped back. I did mess up at one point, after the heater shut down, I went back and stopped the fan, should not have done that, it would have turned on faster again if I didn't. This is a 4 minute video taken burning off that 5g load of OA. You do want to watch it to the end, when it lights up the heater for the second time, I walk around so you can get a view of the OA cloud blowing downwind, and it's an impressive cloud of OA.

https://youtu.be/1rDGUb1bwUw

And if there was any doubt about enough OA in the hives using this, I took this photo about 2 minutes after vaporizing the hives on this stand.


----------



## Ian

Thx Gerry
That looks like it works well, and yes that's a lot of vapour 
What I don't understand is why it quit smoking off when the pan cooled a bit, a thermostat should it regulate within a continuous operating temp.


----------



## RAK

Hmm, amitraz been used the last 20yrs and still works great. Does that say something? and my concetration hasn't changed the last 6yrs.


----------



## JSL

RAK said:


> Hmm, amitraz been used the last 20yrs and still works great. Does that say something? and my concetration hasn't changed the last 6yrs.


Yes, it has had an unusually long lifespan for use in the industry. Glad to hear it is still effective for you. Some are not so fortunate.


----------



## snl

JSL said:


> You are correct, that does say something…. The clock is ticking. Usage in Europe is light compared to the use and exposure that will/is occurring here for commercial beekeeping.


Yes, but in Europe as here, not all the mites were killed in the treatment process and those mites not killed (after 20 years) _*STILL*_ have not bred mites that are resistant to OA.


----------



## wildbranch2007

If anyone is interested, I went back on bee-l looking for a "study" done by allen dick 5 years ago. I looked for the summary as he likes to talk, more than I like to read, but never did find one. From what I read he treated twice with a Cowens OA unit, and then 3 times with a Heilshier(sp) unit, and then did one final treatment with 2 hives again with OA, and the rest with apivar when it still worked. I'll put his last post on bee-l here and the stuff from his web site if you want to compare to what you are seeing.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1204&L=bee-l&F=&S=&P=29644

the thread starts months b/4 and is tittled dropping varroa april 2012

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/files/drop.htm

all the drop information in graph form on his site

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2011/diary101011.htm

and his diary for a long winter nap


----------



## grozzie2

Ian said:


> What I don't understand is why it quit smoking off when the pan cooled a bit, a thermostat should it regulate within a continuous operating temp.


There are three possible reasons.

1) I was in a hurry putting the replacement thermostat in, it may not be ideally mounted. Combination of 'shiny new toy' and 'rushing cuz rain stopped'. I'm going to re-visit that today at some point.

2) It is that time of year here, everything is damp, including the OA in the container I'm using, it's been opened and used 3 times now, probably had a couple raindrops fall into it during one of those uses. The OA is a bit clumpy and damp. I did notice on that run for the video, it bubbled up and formed a bit of a dome, which collapsed when things cooled. I suspect that not much of the OA was actually in contact with the pan while it was cooling and not producing vapor.

3) The thermostat is not a precise digital gadget, it's an analog thing based on differing metals. Not completely sure how narrow it's range is, I should try figure out a way to measure temperature of the pan thru a cycle.

But even with that limitation, this thing is a HUGE improvement over the pan vaporizer in terms of how long it takes to walk thru the back and blast our colonies. The shorter the job, the more likely it is to be done on schedule. Not the biggest of considerations today, but, by this time next year it'll be a much bigger deal as our colony count will be that much bigger.


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## johno

I have just built a couple of vaporizers similar to the Sublimo one. this requires 2" of 1" copper tube a1" end cap and 2" of 3/8' copper pipe. I used a 25mm band heater from Amazon 120v by 300w but when I checked it out it is little more than 100w maybe 120w one of them I placed a temperature controller in circuit but am still waiting the thermocouple delivery. the copper is maybe $3 bucks worth the band heaters $9 the temp controller $24 and the thermocouple $8 so I put this together for less than $50. While waiting for the thermocouple I built another without the temp controller and vaporized 6 of my hives closest to my house, 5 minutes to heat the devise then 1 minute to vaporize 2 to 3 grams per hive so a total of 12minutes to do the 6hives. I forgot to mention that I made 2 fillable tops for each devise so that when you are vaporizing one the second cap is filled with a charge of OA. I also drilled 7/16" holes in the back of the bottom boards which I then plugged with a piece of 7/16" dowel. to vaporize remove the plug, turn the vaporizer upside down put in the charged cap and turn right way up after about a minute remove replace plug and move to the next one. So the second devise that I used cost little more than $10 and worked like a charm. when the thermocouple arrives I will check the system out and see what the unregulated temp will end up. I also use a 600w inverter off my truck when no power is available, I see 500w inverters for less than $30. So is a minute per hive good enough to vaporize a measured dose to a hive.
Johno


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## Ian

Post a pic!


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## johno

Hi Ian,
These are some pics of the first one with the temp controller but not of the tops which I made from 1/2 melamine coated ply. I will do some pics of the system with the tops tomorrow and post them. 
Sorry Ian the site wont let me upload at present. Go to Equipment and Hardware and see the post I put in under DIY vaporizer.
John


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## johno

Managed to load these two . Will post more tomorrow or Sunday.


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## Ian

That my friend is impressive


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## razoo

johno said:


> View attachment 28766
> View attachment 28767
> View attachment 28767
> 
> Managed to load these two . Will post more tomorrow or Sunday.


Would you make some of these to sell to fellow beeks?


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## Daniel Y

johno said:


> So is a minute per hive good enough to vaporize a measured dose to a hive.
> Johno


One minute is right on the button for methods I have used that seem to be effective. So far attempts to make it faster have effectiveness issues. at least some of them. At $10 a unit I was thinking about the ability to run say 5 or 6 of them at once.


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## Ian

Simply put I believe this is where OA vaporizing devices will evolve. Cheap, durable, exact, quick.
$36-4800 is just a stamp price


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## johno

For anyone interested, I have not completed the temp controlled device, but am running one that is not temp controlled. I am not interested in manufacturing this device but will post step by step instructions on how to make one temp controlled or not. The other question is how long the stock of band heaters will last with Amazon. There are suppliers who sell band heaters cheaply but want to sell at least 5 at a time. The other problem is that I used a metric band heater which had to be opened slightly to fit the outside of the 1" copper pipe which is about 11/8" OD this allowed a gap of a little over 3/8" for the 2" of copper pipe to protrude. Also I would hesitate to increase the length of the 3/" pipe as this is heated enough by the band heater so as not to allow the OA to condense on the inside and so block the tube. I will take pics of the parts and how to assemble as soon as possible.
Johno


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## dynemd

johno, I want to build one! They sell these parts on ebay as well so I wouldn't worry about the supply. Are you using a MYPIN TA4-RNR with a K type thermocouple?


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## dgl1948

Gave the new JB 700 a try today and I was not impressed. I think the problem with this unit is it heats from the centre out and that simply does not work. The varrox units we use heat completely around the pan and work fine. This unit does not. Moisture may be a bit of an issue but if the Varrox can handle it why not the 700? Right now I have acid crystals in a dehydrater and will see if that helps. I have contacted Hienz and am waiting for a response.


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## johno

Right now I will use any thermocouple I can get type j which I ordered originally which has still not arrived so I have ordered some type k. and yes I am using a MYPIN TA4-RNR I put a basic unit together today and took some pics


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## johno

The top caps are made from 1/2" melamine covered ply, some bits of scrap I had. Used a 1" hole saw and cut into the board about 1/8" then used a 17/8" hole saw to cut the top out. Ace Hardware had some 1" OD aluminum tubing which fits neatly into the 1" copper pipe so I cut the aluminum into about 3/4" pieces then used 5 minute epoxy to glue them into those 1" cuts in the caps and a small piece of 1/4" dowel and titebond 2 took care of the hole in the cap. Again the 1" pipe was cut into pieces 21/4" long with a pipe cutter also used a pipe cutter on the aluminum. the 3/8" hole was more or less in the middle of the piece of 1" copper pipe. I used oxy acetylene
and used the copper to copper alloy to do the soldering. 
Johno


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## dynemd

Genius!


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## johno

Just a word of warning, there are 5 of the 110v x 330w 25mm x 30mm band heaters in stock at Amazon. The current draw from 12 through the inverter is little more than 10amps so the wattage is around 120watts so if you find something else make sure the wattage is no more than 150watts. especially if you do not temperature control. If you do temp control you do not want to go higher than 300 watts as the contact rating of the mypin ta-4 rnr is only 5 amps at 110v so you will want to keep the loading down as much as possible to extend the life of the contacts. As a matter of interest the oxavap vaporizer draws more than 15amps at 12 volts and the heilizer 13 amps so the above band heater is much more efficient.
Johno


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## dynemd

johno-
If wattage is a problem you could always use the MYPIN TD4-SNR with a solid state relay 25 to 40 amps. LINK: https://www.amazon.com/MYPIN-Univer...?ie=UTF8&qid=1478459766&sr=8-5&keywords=mypin
The "S" stands for SSR controller instead of an internal relay, and it has a relay as well for a light or alarm. 
As far as band heaters, there seem to be plenty of cheap ones from Hong Kong with a 10-20 day shipping time and I'll bet the supply is adequate through various sources here in the US.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110V-300W-2...809085?hash=item282013047d:g:l5kAAOSwAuZX04rr
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Metal-Screw...398966?hash=item3f6e980ff6:g:OuwAAOSwFc5Xv0zL


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## johno

Band heaters can be purchased from Complete Plastics .com for under $10 each if at least 5 are ordered. There is no point in purchasing band heaters greater than 300 watts as the physical size would get too large, besides adding a solid state relay just makes the unit larger and more complicated. I still think if the wattage is just enough to do the job a temp controller would not be required. From the amp draw the wattage of the Amazon band heater is considerably less than that of the glow plugs used in the pan type. That heater on Ebay for about $3 looks the same as the ones that I used. They say 300w but according to Ohms law I would say 120w which is perfect for my use.
Johno


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## beemandan

johno said:


> according to Ohms law I would say 120w


 Not to get too persnickity but Ohm's law use or solve for power (Watts).


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## johno

Yeah when I did the theory of electricity way back in the dark ages I = E/R or P in watts = E x I or I squared R and given any 2 of those values you could determine the 3rd. I believe Ohms law still rules, so if my band heater draws 0.8amps at 120v that would give me 96 watts but again when measuring the 12v dc current we measure about 10 amps so again E x I would give you 120 watts. I give approximate values as the current measurements are only as good as the instrument used. But I would almost guarantee that the heater is not producing 300 watts unless there is a new Ohms law that I have not heard of.
Johno


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## johno

Received and fitted the thermocouple to the vaporizer this afternoon, the thermocouple is a 1/2" washer with the sensor attached to the washer so it is not in direct contact with the copper vessel. Let the system heat for 5 minutes and it registered a temp of 245 degrees so I set the set point to 250 degrees. loaded a few times with about 2 grams of OA which sublimated in less than a minute so all worked well unfortunately I cant tell the exact temperature due to the thermocouple arrangement. One surprising thing was that when sublimation took place the temperature dropped 20 to 25 degrees so I feel if the system was not temp controlled allowed to heat for 5 minutes and then vaporized close to every minute the temperature would rise an excessive amount. When I receive the type k thermocouples I will try again by clamping the new thermocouple to the copper by means of a hose clamp.
Johno


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## johno

Sorry in the above I failed to say or I should of said "the temperature would not rise an excessive amount"
Johno


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## pleasantvalley

After some prodding from Jean-Marc and myself, Ed set up a booth at the Alberta convention that just ended yesterday. He mentioned that the next upgrade in the works is essentially an in-line voltage regulator that should help control the temperatures of the units. The problem comes about because you supply your own genset and some don't output exactly 110v for example at all times. This won't be on the unit, it'll be plugged in directly to the generator and you plug your unit into this box. Meaning, you could buy this for existing machines. They also will add some sort of insulation around the bottom of the unit.


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## jean-marc

It was good to finally meet him, and I hope worhwhile for him.

We did 5 treatments during sept /Oct over a 21 or 22 day period. The bees came back around oct 20 and were broodless for the most part. We did 2 treaments on them and the bees are pretty clean it looks like. Very little drops after the treatments. The first one after the return went up to 300 but the second treatment was a maximum of 4. I only know this at our home yard. We will be checking closely on all the other yards.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

Did some washes today
Start of October, solid 4%
After 1st treatment 1.5-2g per hive, counts held steady at 4%, I found brood still hatching. 
Second treatment last week ,2-4g per hive, started Monday Finished Friday. 
Today , extensive sampling, under 1/2%
Dead mites littered on bottom boards
I'm a happy beekeeper. Glad I had the opportunity to rent a device to act on my urge.


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## Ben Little

Ian said:


> Did some washes today
> Start of October, solid 4%
> After 1st treatment 1.5-2g per hive, counts held steady at 4%, I found brood still hatching.
> Second treatment last week ,2-4g per hive, started Monday Finished Friday.
> Today , extensive sampling, under 1/2%
> Dead mites littered on bottom boards
> I'm a happy beekeeper. Glad I had the opportunity to rent a device to act on my urge.


:banana: :thumbsup:
That's great news !


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## jean-marc

Happy for you Ian. Great to have friendly neighbors. The other good news is that assuming all the brood has hatched, the varroa have been exposed to OAV and will drop during the winter. If colonies do notbrood during their stay in the building one last treatment when they exit the shed will do a coup de grace on the few remaining varroa. Levels will stay low during the entire season. That was our experience last year. Levels stayed below the economic threshold of 1% until Sept 1. The odd hive was above the threshold but on average we were just at threshold. I considered that very good considering we do pollination and we live in Lotusland where tf beekeeping has a bunch of followers. From this I concluded that the OAV did a number on varroa last year. My sense of things is 2 treatments when broodless does a good job. 10 seconds per treatment... lots of smoke coming from everywhere and that should do a great job. Keep your eyes open for colonies that have propolized the entire entrance, OAV does not enter those colonies.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc

oops


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## Ian

This game is such a moving target. That cold October finished brood rearing and I observed the last hatch out 2 weeks ago. 
Above November temps came and due to an abnormal non killing frost til just recently, last week loads of pollen came in from volunteer field canola and with my late season feeding, they started brooding again. 
We husseled our 2nd Vaporizer treatment anticipating sealed brood again and finished before any mites found their way down under cappings again. How many mites this last brood round will yield, who knows, but for the time being, my counts have improved. They are being stored away now, so brooding will be minimal until April. 

The pause button has been hit....


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## Ian

Jean Marc, yes great to have friendly neighbors. Also great to have beekeepers share their thoughts and experiences here on social media. Groups like Beesource has its place of relevance in my beekeeping tool kit.


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## jean-marc

We keep checking our foundation drop boards and looks like the last round we are doing is not really necessary. The ones that were 80 or 200 or whatever number are down to 0-8 mites now. Much much lower, by a factor of 6 or 7 on average, sometimes more sometimes less. It just depends on the colonies. Nonetheless after using the vmVaporizer for a second fall/winter, I am still pleased with the results. We will continue to use it and would recommend it to others. I am still amazed that the bees can take so much oxalic vapour without any apparent damage.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc

oops


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## Maybee Apiaries

Can anyone tell me how big of a generator is required to run this thing(with a big enough compressor)?
Found a smoking deal on a 4000w generator, but not sure if it is big enough, or overkill. 
Thanks.


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## loggermike

A Honda 2000 inverter( http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200585434_200585434) is big enough to run the gun and a very small compressor(Senco PC1010 1-Horsepower Peak, 1/2 hp running 1-Gallon Compressor) .The small generator is good when you cant reach all the hives from the truck, and have to carry it .


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## Ben Little

Maybee Apiaries said:


> Can anyone tell me how big of a generator is required to run this thing(with a big enough compressor)?
> Found a smoking deal on a 4000w generator, but not sure if it is big enough, or overkill.
> Thanks.


I was told from the manufacturer that the gun uses 9 AMPS , amps X volts = WATTS ** 1080 for the gun **, don't forget that the compressor needs around 2 times the watts for start up, get the amps on your compressor and then do the calculation. I think the small 2000 watt honda is not quite big enough( I know that many use it ), you will always be running it to the max and I would rather be a bit over what I needed versus just enough. But that is my perspective. If the air compressor is small, you will have it constantly running, If you are going to buy a VM gun, get the right gear to run it, that's what I'm going to do.

FYI > Inverter power is very clean and consistent versus a regular generator, I heard that they are possibly selling a voltage regulator that goes on the panel of the gen so it doesn't produce too much power to the gun and make it hotter some how (this is just what I read somewhere in a post)

I hope to get mine ordered over this winter.

Good Luck :thumbsup:


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## jean-marc

Maybee Apiaries 4000w generator said:


> I have large yards, so I have to drag the generator and compressor around. These items get hauled around in a green landscaping type of cart. Any savings you get on the generator might soon get lost in the lifting in and out of the truck. The savings are in using the items to protect your bees, not so much in the initial outlay imho.
> 
> Something else to consider a 4000 w generator is a heavy item. If an employee gets hurt and is lifting more than 60 pounds (in BC) then the employer might have some issues with the Workman's Compensation Board.
> 
> Jean-Marc


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## loggermike

The overload light has never come on on the little Honda. It seems to be within its capability. I have a 4000 watt generator but see no reason to lug it around at this point.The tiny senco compressor is only 4 amps running. Start it first then plug in the gun. It does run non stop but not much air is really needed for the thing.


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## Ian

Depends on your setup 
I ran mine off a 10000w Holbart portable generator/welder with compressor, because that's what the farm has. All my yards are truck accessible, just run it up along the side with a 50' hose


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## loggermike

So it comes down to whether or not you can reach all your hives from the truck with a 50 foot hose and cord. I could get to most but some yards we had to take the generator off the truck to get the hives in the back. so the heavy generator just wasnt going to work. I guess one could use a longer cord with a bigger generator , but I found 50 foot to be 'kludgy' enough to drag around. Its nice to have a helper keeping the cords from catching on pallets.

All in all, my experience so far with this thing is I think its amazing. Pricey, but nothing on the market comes close to getting a good charge of vapor in FAST.


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## Maybee Apiaries

Thanks everyone. VM got back to me and reccomended honda 2000w generator, I think that's the way to go. being able to throw it in the front seat of the truck vs having to strap it down on the dusty bed is reson enough to spend the extra $$. Just wasn't sure if 2000w was enough, some compressors suck a lot of power.


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## loggermike

"some compressors suck a lot of power"
They sure do. Thats why I don't think you could use one any bigger than the little 4 amp 1 gallon compressor with the Honda 2000. I agree with Ben that a bigger compressor and generator would be ideal. Unless it has to be portable!


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## jean-marc

[QUOTE Unless it has to be portable![/QUOTE]

Well said Mike.

Jean-Marc


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## Chip Euliss

I already had a Honda 2500 and it's fairly heavy. I took a nice pallet and mounted the generator, compressor and filter to it with screws. Just fork it on the back of my truck and go. Pallet also fits in the bed of a side-by-side ATV and I use it when I have the bees yarded here for shipment since it's easier to move around.


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## loggermike

Definitely better when they are yarded up rather than traveling from yard to yard. One thing I was wondering about: Does the small amount of vapor that comes out the top while moving cause any potential damage?


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## Ian

No but I leave the air on just a bit between yards to cool down the element. Also make sure it's tilted down a bit so any liquid residue does not run up the shaft and plug the air jets.,


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## loggermike

Thats what I was doing . If I turned off the air, vapor started drifting out the top.Thought it might condense and plug up something. It takes mine a long time to cool down.


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## AstroZomBEE




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## jean-marc

That's slick. Looks like it has not been used yet. I would not want to have to bring the bobcat though. I see you got the downtown model with the tracks, less ruts and you probably never ever get stuck. 

Jean-Marc


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## AstroZomBEE

The vaporizor is a few weeks old in the pictures, our third one for the entire company.

I keep one masted track machine for the bees, it's mainly for pollination especially where ever the weather deems it a necessity. But a skilled operator can move a wheeled bobcat through most terrain without making ruts.


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## jean-marc

Having 3 of the machines, I am guessing you are happy with them? What other treatments are you using?

Jean-Marc


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## funwithbees

Does anyone know if this is the same machine or same company that is advertised in ABJ ?treatvarroa.com? I am considering buying one this year.

Thanks
Nick
gridleyhollow.com


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## jean-marc

I don't think it is. I believe that this was their former partner. Personally I stayed with the vmVaporizer. I think they were hoping to have the new and improved model out by now. Anybody know if it is out yet?

Jean-Marc


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## snl

jean-marc said:


> I don't think it is. I believe that this was their former partner. Personally I stayed with the vmVaporizer. I think they were hoping to have the new and improved model out by now. Anybody know if it is out yet?
> 
> Jean-Marc


Give them a call 916-833-1823 or email them on their website........​


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## Ben Little

I want to get a reel for the air and electric, I am trying to get things ready for next season. Have you looked into something like that ? I know you can get dual reels, they are pricey but I thought they would look tidy and keep them from getting tangled.


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## jean-marc

Ben: We use duct tape to keep the air hose and electric cord together. That way when you have to move along in the yard those cords don't get all tangled up. Definitely very inexpensive and it does the job of keeping things tidy. I am not sure that areel would help. It might keeps things tidier but could be slower.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

x2


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