# Better Queens by Jay Smith



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I just finished "Better Queens" by Jay Smith, after reading his earlier book on the same topic. http://bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm

I'm planning to raise a few queens next year and am doing the required reading. I have some questions.

He seems to say that the standard method of grafting yields inferior queens due to the fact that they are not adequately fed. If this true, why is grafting still so popular?

It seems his method of cutting out cells and the rest is a bit more involved than the grafting method, is this true? Is it worth it for the results?

Those of you who have experience in queen rearing, what are your thoughts on Mr. Smith's book? What is your advice for someone with fewer than two dozen hives who would like to raise their own queens?

Don't misunderstand my intentions, I'm not taking his or anyone else's statements as difinitive, I'm just asking questions trying to learn and bring ideas together to form a viable trial method.

Thus far, I'm interested in grafting because of the ability to sample a couple of half-dozens of larvae from several queens and raise them at the same time in the same cell builder. I like the Jenter/Nicot methods, but they require a bit more massaging and you only get progeny from one queen at a time. I also like the idea of making wax cells and not using plastic. It's not that I have anything against plastic, I just think it would be fun to be able to raise queens without needing to buy supplies.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

you are doing the best thing....read a number of "methods" and you will start to understand what actually has to happen in order to raise good queens.

imho, grafting yields fine results as long as you graft from young enough larvae (the temptation seems to be to graft from larvae that are big enough to see well...you want to see the pool of food and wonder if there is a larvae in there or not  ) i have not sen anything that makes me think the queens would be better using the smith method.

take some time to practice this year so you are prepared for next.

wrt wax vs plastic cups....i was suprised when i saw kirk webster using plastic cups...so i asked him about it. he used to use wax that he made himself (he makes his own foundation as well), but had a batch that the bees wouldn't touch. the plastic is universally accepted, and if you are on a schedule, you can't really afford to have a whole batch rejected. most don't seem to feel the need to prime the plastic cells if using a "chinese grafting tool".

deknow


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

I graft using a sable artist brush size 000.

I use plastic cell cups straight from the box they are shipped in and I dont prime.

In my experience the best queens that I can produce size wise are grafted from lavae that I can barely see because they are so small.
The royal jelly in the cells when they are at this stage is almost clear.

The cells are put into a queenless starter over flowing with bees they are given a frame of pollen scraped up so the bees have to clean it out and a fed a 1/1 sugar solution.

They are left for 48 hours in the starter before moving them to a queenright finisher.

In my opinion there are 3 things that are critical to producing good queencells/queens 

1. lavae size.
2 queenless starter overflowing with bees.
3 fed well with pollen and sugar/syrup. 

The sugar syrup is not used to feed them because they are hungry it's used as a stimulant to replicate a nectar flow which is conjusive to bees naturally wanting to raise cells in a flow rather than a dearth.

I feel with the cutout method you have no control over the age of the lavae and you get a wide variety of cell size.

I think with fewer than 2 dozen hives you are in a perfect position to try a variety of methods and chose the ones that you like the most.
It takes a number of years with differing results to know whats going to work for you.

For the most part commercial queen breeders would use the grafting method because it's quick and you can do large numbers at a time and in my opinion if you are raising your queen cells properly any difference in queen quality would have more to do with the breeding of the queen rather than the way the cells are produced.

frazz


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Nothing wrong with grafting.

But Better Queens by Jay Smith is an excellent little book and should be required reading for someone starting out. Things have advanced since then and Jay does not fully address some of the more modern conundrums such as genetic diversity, the focus of the book is purely on the actual mechanics of raising the queen. The book is aimed at full time queen breeders, but for a small hobbyist there is a section on how to use Jays method, using just one or two hives.

Sol to do the cut cell right, you do need to use Jays method of putting a dedicated comb into your breeder hive, then removing it a day later with eggs in it, to ensure the larvae are the right age, as per what Frazz said. This might be the most complex part of the whole thing for a new beek, but just follow his instructions given in the section for a small beekeeper.

A big advantage of grafting is you can use all available larvae, where the cut cell method requires a decent amount of larvae because the majority of them are destroyed. However while grafting done right produces fine queens, in my own experience of using both methods you do get a higher mating % from cells raised using the cut cell method, and Jay found that as well.

I did a thread here about raising queens without grafting, that includes photos which might help. The method I showed was very similar to Jays method, just incorporated my own experience, plus a thing or two I learned from Robert Russell.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I was thinking of burning through a pound of Rossman's wax cups and then trying to make my own. Smith said the wax had to be perfect and clear or the bees wouldn't take it. If I feel like it's not worth my time to make my own, I'll try plastic. But I generally like to do things on my own for the sheer challenge of it.

What is the name of a really good quality modern queen breeding book?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

We just used any old beeswax for cell making. Heck, if they'll take plastic.....


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>He seems to say that the standard method of grafting yields inferior queens due to the fact that they are not adequately fed. If this true, why is grafting still so popular?

Maybe "inferior" isn't quite the right word. His point was they were not all they could be. Smith literally "wrote the book" on grafting. His "Queen Rearing Simplified" was one of the most popular queen rearing books ever. But he was in a constant quest for "better queens". I think Smith would characterize queens from the graftless method as "better" rather than queens from grafting as "inferior".

>It seems his method of cutting out cells and the rest is a bit more involved than the grafting method, is this true? Is it worth it for the results?

I've done the Hopkins method once. My timing was probably off as it wasn't so spectacular in results. But I has potential. I haven't done the "Better Queens" method simply because I haven't gotten around to it. Grafting seems to be what I do the most of anymore mostly because I can walk out to the hive today, find some larvae the right age and graft them now. With the Better Queens method or the Jenter method, I have to confine the queen 4 days before and my schedule just got too hectic. But I like confining the queen and knowing the age. But it's no more work for me to do the Jenter with the same basic results (graftless and a full royal jelly compliment when transferred).

>Those of you who have experience in queen rearing, what are your thoughts on Mr. Smith's book?

I think it's a good plan. If you want a very similar but more simplified version (which was published decades before better queens) try this:

http://bushfarms.com/beeshopkins1886.htm

> What is your advice for someone with fewer than two dozen hives who would like to raise their own queens?

http://bushfarms.com/beesafewgoodqueens.htm

>I just think it would be fun to be able to raise queens without needing to buy supplies.

All of these methods don't require supplies or grafting:
http://bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm
http://bushfarms.com/beeshopkins1886.htm
http://bushfarms.com/beeshopkinsmethod.htm
http://bushfarms.com/beesmillermethod.htm
http://bushfarms.com/beesalleymethod.htm
http://bushfarms.com/beesafewgoodqueens.htm

And these use grafting but no commercial supplies:
http://bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearingsimplified.htm
http://bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Look up the alley Method if you only want a few queens.You start strait from the egg.No grafting at all.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

But I want to graft. Compared to some of the other methods, it seems so utilitarian. That's what I'm looking for.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Sol, are you going to get out of your comfort zone, go and visit a commercial queen breeder?? Russell probably would be closest....Nothing like experience to learn. TED


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Ted, when are you going to stop trying to tell me what to do? I am getting out of my comfort zone. Do you see the reading of the books and the trying of the methods and the asking of the questions?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Glad to see you doing that. But still the nuances of queen breeding can be tricky. These little management skills can only be learned by working with a queen breeder., Not out of book. Good luck. TK


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I don't believe that for a minute. Beekeeping isn't some sort of secret cult wherein the secrets are only passed from person to person. There isn't any special knowledge that you or anyone else has that can't be learned from a multitude of sources or experience and experimentation.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> There isn't any special knowledge that you or anyone else has that can't be learned from a multitude of sources or experience and experimentation.


I have to agree with Ted. There's a lot more to queen rearing than you'll learn from a book. What are you going to do when Murphy's Law bites you on the butt? Truly you can figure out solutions through experimentation and experience. Takes many years and lots of failures. With an experienced breeder as a mentor you can learn the pitfalls that will trap you as a novice. Times change. Situations change. Weather patterns change. An experienced breeder has past knowledge to draw from to deal with the current situation. No book can give you that, and you don't have the time to make all the mistakes.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

There is a reason most professions have some sort of apprenticeship program. I wouldn't want my house wired by an electrician with a book in one hand nor would I want my child taught by a student who had never had the opportunity to work under an experienced teacher. Sure you can raise queens by what you learn out of a book but unless you have experienced the myriad of pitfalls that seem to always pop up it is going to be a steep learning curve wrought with a lot of needless failures.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

for myself, i was introduced to actual grafting at a county bee club meeting. there were too many people for everyone to get hands on experience (i'm small, and can wiggle my way to the front of the line  )...so i got to try grafting a few larvae (i used to do very fine metal work...making top of the line handmade piccolos)...it wasn't so hard.

so i purchased a minimum of equipment and gave it a shot. my first graft failed, so i read up on things, and realized that i had flipped some of the larvae...second one was a roaring success.

although i do ask questions on the forums from time to time, if i have a real pressing question, i call a queen breeder...a commercial one at that. i was very pleased last year at our conference to have a round of virgins emerge at the start of the conference....some of the finest breeders "checked my work" (mike palmer, kirk webster, chris baldwin, sam comfort, dee lusby, etc), and i gained some confidence that I was approaching things properly 

fooling around with queen rearing is different than actaully rearing queens....once you get the hang of it, you will see the utility of all the steps, and the need for each step to actually work every time. you want to get the most out of each cell builder. you want the highest percentage of acceptance (i have 2 rounds going right now of 21 cells each....the first one has drawn out 18 or the 21, the second has drawn out 21 of 21), you want to have a plan (and a system) for how, where, and by whom the queens will get mated. in short, it is somewhat of a waste to graft 10 cells once...it doesn't take many more resources to do 3 or 4 rounds of 20 cells each, but you have to set things up right. this is why i say read as many methods as you can, because you will start to understand the goals rather than the steps....all the schedules start ot make sense at the same time.

the books i have on hand currently are roger morse's book (my least favorite), frank pellett's "practical queen rearing" (which i like because it has lots of info on different aproaches in very few pages), and the paige and laidlaw book. i've also been reading kirk webster's writings on his approach (http://KirkWebster.com/), which i find very helpful.

but all of this is why we are running 4 week queen rearing classes this year...there are many obstacles to actually starting to graft and raise one's own queens (the mechanics of grafting, making cell builders, incubating cells, etc) and i think a bit of hand holding for the first 2 rounds will be helpful (and so do our students...we have filled one class and have started to fill another).

once the mechanics and system is in place, then one needs to consider the goals. many simply purchase breeder queens and graft from them. the trend among many seems to be "mix and match" and make as diverse a gene pool as possible...this is flawed thinking. at some point (hopefully sooner rather than later), one needs to work with what one has, and breed into some kind of uniformity. mix and match can give you good queens for your apiary, but it is not a breeding program, and it offers no long term stability, nor does it offer "fixed traits" that other breeders would want to incorporate into their own stock.

deknow

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> I don't believe that for a minute. Beekeeping isn't some sort of secret cult wherein the secrets are only passed from person to person.


well, i think you are half right. few beekeepers keep secrets (there is no need, other beekeepers are so stubborn they won't listen anyways), and most are willing to share what they know. putting queen rearing into book form is not easy, and i have yet to read the perferct one (looking forward to mike palmer's book on the subject...i expect it to become the gold standard).

i think you are on the right track to get advice from great breeders (there are several on this forum alone). i think it is expecting too much to assume that you will find all this information in any collection of books.

the 2 rounds i have going right now were done because i wanted to start grafting NOW with the resources i had ( a few overwintered colonies and a bunch of new packages). i dequeened a package, did a newspaper combine with 5 frames of bees, brood, and fresh pollen from a strong overwintered hive, and in 5 hours they were building cells from my grafts. i've never seen this approach in a book, or even online....but it meets the requirements for a cell builder, and seems to be working fine. as the season progresses, i'll be doing things in a more conventional manner, but this works.

deknow


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I didn't see that Ted was being condescending... get you a cup of coffee and a biscuit then read it again. Lol. What I think he was getting at was actually one of the very best things that anyone can learn about bee keeping, "get out of your comfort zone"... this is what I mean when I say "stay flexible"... it can be taken the wrong way, but it is meant to simply help one to be self critical and broaden ones own capabilities by accepting the fact that none of us know "it all" and that there is always room for improvement that can be learned from others (even if you do not share the same views on every aspect).

Everyone does things a bit differently and no one does the same thing Every time... I have not written a book, mainly because I have not found the way to categorize Every different step that I may take to meet Every different variable that I may face... this is the short comings of all written material and one of the best qualities of an active forum. 

We have a student worker (internship) program that has over 300 people all with exceptional backgrounds on a waiting list awaiting their chance to get true hands on experience to see how each variable can be handled as it comes up... most of these people have a masters or doctorate in entomology, biology, etc... they are all very intelligent and well versed people, but they also know that a commercial breeding operation is the best place to see so many "issues" and so many variations of styles in response to those issues in one place... 

"If it can go wrong, it will". Text books help lay the ground works, but experience is the true teacher. I have never read Smith's book (not anything against him, I just do not read bee books, as I was blessed from the start with the resources to use trial and error and the combined teachings of my grandfather, father, and the "old names" in bee keeping to learn from), so I hadn't posted about it. I read studies and theories, because I like to "get out of my comfort zones" and try new things in a multitude of ways so that I am always seeking improvement.

I think you just took Ted the wrong way... you seem to challenge a lot of conventional wisdom, but also seem to be eager to work... thus professors will push you in order to get you to unlock your true potential... which is usually hidden behind the "all" that one thinks that they know... true intelligence is not really a matter of what knowledge one has, but what ability and drive that one has to seek knowledge in every aspect of life. He is just trying to push you to open your mind and broaden your horizons.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I have been a professional learner for the past six years. In ten days, I'll have a sheet of paper that says I learned whatever it was that I was supposed to learn. In a couple of years, I'll have another sheet of paper that says I'm a master at whatever it was that I was supposed to learn. I already have two sheets of paper that say I learned whatever it was that I was supposed to learn in the first two years since when I started this trek.

I simply reject the idea that I can't learn whatever I need to know from a book and from doing it myself. It's how I wired my house, it's how I plumbed my house, it's how I drywalled my house. It's how I fixed my cars and motorcycles and lawnmowers. Even if the information is told to me face to face, it still means nothing until I try it and either succeed or fail. If any method leads to a success, that success should lead to an enhancement of the method. If the method leads to failure, the failure leads to a new method.

I reject the statement 'you can't learn from a book' because I have and I can and I do. It is what I do. It's what I was doing a few minutes ago because I have a final today. It is what I like to do. I enjoy learning that way. Are all books correct? Of course not, but neither are all 'experts' who give advice. Do books help you avoid all pitfalls and mistakes? Of course not, but neither do 'experts.' Learning and doing is taking some information and putting it to practice. The source of the information is unimportant because all sources will necessarily be incomplete. It's the doing that fills in the details. I could spend months with Ted or Jim or Dean or Dee or Don or Mark or Michael or the other Michael or Jay Smith himself and still not reach the rapid pace of learning that I could by doing it myself. Neither could I afford to do the former while I can easily do the latter.

So if you want to reveal to me these deep secrets that I could only learn by being in your physical presence, please do. If not, I don't need you. I'll be okay. I'm young. I have time to make mistakes and gain experience. I have books, I have have the internet, I have Michael Bush's website (someone who feels free to share knowledge at every opportunity), and I have hives of my own. I'm gonna be okay. And I'm going to enjoy it. I will enjoy the successes and the failures the whole way through.

This is one of the great failures of this forum. I ask 'how do I reconcile different methods' and many of the answers I get are 'you can't learn from a book.' Preposterous. And it's not the question I asked.

Many thanks to Dean, Frazz, Michael Bush, and Alastair.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I would say Good Luck, but it seems you don't think you need it. ;-)


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I don't believe in luck. 
I believe in chance and skill.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Solomon,I am just like you in the things I have done but what Ted is saying in the short of it is that hands on experience with someone that has already been do it for a living will allow you to learn even faster and better.Faster and better are the key words here.A book tells everything but it cant tell you Whoa,whoa,whoa you are getting ahead of yourself or No not like that do it like this!!!


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Sadly, I believe I have failed as a teacher....If I can not get one to put down his or her defensive walls then how can I teach and how can they learn??? Knowledge is gained from experience. Experience is the best teacher. Hands on is how you gain experience from somebody that has stepped on themselves and made mistakes in the bee business. You should not have to make the same mistakes that somebody else has done already in the past. Mentors are part of your pedigree. Claude Payne, queen breeder, H.W. Grice, commercial honey producer, Thomas D. Norman, queen breeder, Gus Rouse, queen breeder, Jim Powers, commercial honey producer, Binford Weaver, queen breeder, these are the people that taught me "Hands On". Yes, I worked for them as an employee or with them and learned. I am sorry Sol, You can not get that type of education in a book. Please expand your horizons and go and work with a commercial beekeeper. You have just enough stubbornish to make a very good beekeeper. TED KRETSCHMANN


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Solomon Parker said:


> I don't believe that for a minute. Beekeeping isn't some sort of secret cult wherein the secrets are only passed from person to person. There isn't any special knowledge that you or anyone else has that can't be learned from a multitude of sources or experience and experimentation.


There is no substitute for years of experience. period. For many of us who operate close to that "professional learners' realm and/or very used to academic leaning, reading research studies, etc. it is frustrating because our hands on experience lags way behind what our head knows or thinks it know and understands. Sure we can learn how to do it "from the book" but managing it in practice is an entirely different.

I agree with my mentors and teachers..some of whom have already commented, folks can tell you 1000 times how to do it and you will be all the wiser from their lessons already learned, but there is no substitute for the years of experience that they have. I am right there myself (lacking the years of experience) but I have faith that as I keep at it, experience will be increasingly gained one season at a time, and more exposure to more experienced beeks than me will help that process tremendously. You might consider your dug in heels and keep an open mind about what some of the precious resources are telling you.


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## ekervina (May 18, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> I simply reject the idea that I can't learn whatever I need to know from a book and from doing it myself.


I was clever enough to learn it all on my own when I was your age. It seems I've gotten less clever over the years, so now I'm reduced to also learning from the experience of others and having people show me how now and then. 

I still read, I still synthesize ideas from different views, I still experiment on my own. But overall, learning has gotten a lot cheaper in terms for time, money, and emotional turmoil.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Come pick me up Ted, I'm available in the month of June.

I just wish this could be about the questions I asked and not an argument over how effective a book is at teaching a concept. What a loss.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I learned all mine from books.I had a mentor briefly till he took one of my only two hives I had back then and I had to go through a headache to get it back.Since then I have been on my own.You can read,read,read but hands on will be your real teacher.I wish I had of had someone to show me all the things books could not explain.You can learn a heck of a lot more from someone that has been there.One book I had showed all there is to grafting larvae but it didnt tell me one tiny thing like to make sure not to flip them over.A experienced queen raiser will tell you that during your first grafting experience and tell you exactly why.He can look at what you do and tell you what you need to do better.That book cant look over your shoulder and tell you what you have done wrong.I have done a lots of thing wrong over the years that the book didnt tell me that were wrong.


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## ekervina (May 18, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> I just wish this could be about the questions I asked ...


In your original post you asked "Those of you who have experience in queen rearing, what are your thoughts on Mr. Smith's book? What is your advice for someone with fewer than two dozen hives who would like to raise their own queens?"

Seems to me Ted answered both of those questions, either implicitly, or explicitly. He apparently doesn't think Mr. Smith's (or anybody else's) book is the best way to learn, and his advice for learning how to raise queens it is to study under experienced people. 

You're free to accept or reject that advice in any measure you wish, of course.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> Come pick me up Ted, I'm available in the month of June.


Sol, I can't tell what you mean by the above. I would never take on a helper that wanted me to pick them up (even if they were joking about it). I'd be less inclined to take on a helper who suggests (perhaps in error) that they have nothing to do for a month anyways. I'm not trying to beat you up Sol, but come on, after being disdainful of the value of such an experience you offer so little enthusiasm....a month with a commercial beekeeper is experience worth thousands of dollars, not something to fill time up if someone will come pick you up.

I did some grafting for a busy friend the other day...why him? He picked me up at home, drove me to his apiary, helped pick out a frame to graft from (and _ran_ to the car to get a flashlight when the clouds made seeing difficult), drove me home...and right back to work for him, even though I know he would have liked to stay for the grafting, i know he is that busy.

I've spent some time observing and working with commercial beekeepers (driven from the Canadian border to south Florida, and flown more places in order to do so)....and rarely have I felt "useful"...as I know what someone that knows what they are doing can get done is more than they can get supervising helpers...even if they are skilled.



> I just wish this could be about the questions I asked and not an argument over how effective a book is at teaching a concept. What a loss.


...I think your question was answered. I know some that object to grafting...but would object to jay smith's method for the same reasons (unnatural, bees don't pick queens, too many queens from one colony at one time). most breeders i know do confine the queen in order to have full frames of the same aged larvae...if this is done, either method (using comb or grafting) will yield fine results.

deknow


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

deknow said:


> few beekeepers keep secrets (there is no need, other beekeepers are so stubborn they won't listen anyways), deknow


Ha! That's funny DeKnow, but so true! Not only in beekeeping, either!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

deknow said:


> I would never take on a helper that wanted me to pick them up (even if they were joking about it). I'd be less inclined to take on a helper who suggests (perhaps in error) that they have nothing to do for a month anyways.


Well, you see, I keep getting these suggestions that I go work for a commercial beekeeper, like I have the time and money and permission from my wife to go do such a thing. I don't. I would really love for there to be a big commercial beekeeper based out of Northwest Arkansas who I could go give some time to learn first hand. But it's not an option. So, I figured that if it were so important that I go work for a commercial beekeeper that Ted keeps mentioning it over and over and over again, I figure it's more important to him than it is to me, and he should make it happen, because I simply can't. So why does it keep getting suggested after I roundly rebuffed the advance? 


deknow said:


> I'm not trying to beat you up Sol, but come on, after being disdainful of the value of such an experience you offer so little enthusiasm....a month with a commercial beekeeper is experience worth thousands of dollars, not something to fill time up if someone will come pick you up.


I have not been disdainful of the value of such an experience, I have been disdainful of the idea that my experience and learning to do things myself is somehow inferior to the tutelage of another beekeeper. What about all the grief I've seen you take from bringing up Dee's methods from time to time? I know for a fact Ted disapproves of some of those. Would he want me to go work with her for a while, or with him? Say the words 'housel position' and he blows a fuse. I'm a civil engineer, not a commercial beekeeper. I obviously don't see the return of the time and efforts and money in the same light as you do. So why is something that would take up a good portion of my yearly income so valuable to me? It isn't. Is it valuable? Absolutely. Given the opportunity, I will do it. But I haven't been given the opportunity, unless you'd like to donate those thousands of dollars for me to go do it.

I just want to rear some queens on my own. But apparently reading books isn't good enough. Apparently the only way to be good at it is to have someone show me how to do it. I flatly reject the idea.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...i'm going to take the courageous path, and agree with both you and ted 

i don't think you need to work with a commercial beekeeper to learn to raise a few queens (the method posted by don is a great one...bust a large hive down to one box filled with brood and harvest the queen cells...no need to make it queenless). this might make more sense than grafting (which is going to require some kind of cell builder). regardless, you might want to graft.

i also don't think that you can learn all the nuances of high level queen rearing from a book...it takes several (many? countless?) seasons of experince, of trial and error. you can learn some of the nuances of someone elses method if you work with the beekeeper....some things (like thinks you see, hear, smell, sense) you have to experience. for instance, how do you know if a cell builder is ready for cells? well....the first time you see it, you know (the bees are excited...they festoon in any empty space...they have a specific vibe)...you cannot picture this from a description, you have to be there.

deknow


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Thanks Dean, that's exactly the sort of information that I am really looking for.

You are right. It's like knowing the age of a queen cell just by looking at it. I know it's something many people can do, but I haven't gotten the opportunity to look at as many as I'd like to yet. But I'm learning. I'm learning about things you do on purpose rather than allowing to happen, like keeping track of the days between starting cells and when it's time to move to the mating nuc. And I'm taking pictures and blogging and keeping track of the hives in a spreadsheet so I can draw on last year's experience rather than having to learn over and over again until it sticks.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> I'm learning about things you do on purpose rather than allowing to happen, like keeping track of the days between starting cells and when it's time to move to the mating nuc. And I'm taking pictures and blogging and keeping track of the hives in a spreadsheet so I can draw on last year's experience rather than having to learn over and over again until it sticks.


Let me know when the bees start doing what you think they should do based on past experience!

deknow


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> I wouldn't want my house wired by an electrician with a book in one hand ...


Nor would I. But a self-taught queen-raising beek isn't going to burn his house down through improper grafting.

Like a lot of folks, given my job responsibilities, going to apprentice with a commercial breeder isn't a possiblility. My collection of books, what I can learn from youtube videos and what I can glean here will have to suffice. I guess I will just have to be content to be second rate, having just those books to learn from.

I can live with that and that is all that's important to me.

Wayne


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Solomon Parker said:


> Well, you see, I keep getting these suggestions that I go work for a commercial beekeeper


There are a handful of commerical guys in Arkansas... But I don't see any reason you can't do it on your own. As you stated in your finishing comment.

I've done most of mine on my own, but I can tell you that everytime I meet up with an oldtimer or newtimer, I learn something new. Generally things that aren't in a book.

I'm a long way from a "commerical" guy and most of my hives are in TN, not AR. But I plan on having somewhere around 100 in AR in the next couple years. Currently, only have 2 on that side of the river. *Gas is too expansive to drive there often.*

Either way, just know that doing it on your own can be costly, but not impossible. 

Learning from someone elses mistakes is in my opinion, is generally cheaper. It's like buying a used car, let someone else take the depreciation. *Just don't get a lemon*


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I should also say that if one wants to be good enough, the only thing that will be lacking is efficiency. One does not need to be efficient to rear a few rounds of top quality queens during the season (especially if it is combined with splitting or other management in the apiary). By the time you are selling (or relying upon) mated queens, however, you have to do things on a schedule and according to a system.

mini mating nucs start to look good when you realize that they could double your production (or more) over 5 frame deep nucs.

currently, we have decided not to sell mated queens. we have an insatiable demand for our honey (at a very good price), and can't justify breaking up a hive that might produce just 10lbs of surplus in order to mate/sell 8 queens.

deknow


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

ted you are right on the money! and WOW what a bunch of people to work for! If a guy wanted to start in bees and could work for those people and listen to them they would be years and big money ahead of the game. I will have to say that learning from other beekeepers is the best thing you can do. It is either a lesson on how to do something or how not to do something lol 

I will make time in my schedule to visit other beekeepers and i dont think i have ever walked away from a guys place and not learned something and a few times its been that 10,000$ tip not a bad day worth of work.  

Now on topic you cant burn down your house by raising your own queens and not knowing what you are doing but you sure can burn down your operation by raising some bad queens it has been done before. be careful

regards Nick


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Bobby Coy is a hop, skip and a jump up the road from you. He operates 10000 colonies of bees. No excuses please! TK


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Bobby Coy is quite literally at the other end of the state, a five hour drive. I'm going to visit Michael Bush in Nebraska instead.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I hope the bridges you build as civil engineer are not the ones you burn as a beekeeper.....TK


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

That makes no sense whatsoever.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

I have not visited with many queen breeders.. but I have visited with a couple. My general impression (and I can be wrong) is that a big time queen breeder is a completely different kind of critter than a big time pollinator. The skills of a queen breeder remind me more of a skilled cabinet maker and a pollinator... sheesh.. I don't know how you can characterize one of those hyperactive guys. I do not know if one can learn the mnd set of a QB from a book or not... my guess is you probably are just born with it.. but a visit sure would not hurt, preferably more than one.


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