# Split, buy queens or buy queen cells - I'm a newbie.



## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

I've got 2 hives and thought I would go to 4 since the girls were booming and I was told would need new space very soon. I was planning on splitting the 2 hives but then started reading about the bees at B Weaver (anyone with experience there?). They breed V mite resistant strains and do not treat their hives for varroa at all. In my extensive experience with my hives (one summer), I have not treated and do not want to treat, so this obviously is of great interest to me. I just don't know which way is smarter for me to undertake, as a beginner. Adding a queen or doing splits seems to be the norm. Wondered why I don't see more info on just adding a queen cell. Harder to get the bees (which I figured I would steel several frame's worth from my hives, yes?) to accept her? Greater risk of no queen? Wondering pros and cons. Thanks!!


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

Make splits from your own hives and allow them to raise their own queens. The bees know best which eggs will make the best queens for their area (Mraz). Just take about three frames because you still want a honey crop from the older hives. It is an excellent swarm preventive method and allows you to build hives that will produce very well the next year. You could thus breed your own resistant queens for your area. If you must use a queen cell, then make the nuc, wait a day and introduce the queen cell. You might lose some time by not introducing the queen cell and allowing them to raise their own queen but the results will be better bees for your immediate area.OMTCW


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## B Reeves (Oct 2, 2009)

Aprox 8 years ago I tried some Bweavers never treated again, and I make sure I bring some of them in now and again to keep things fresh
Bob


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Cedar Hill said:


> Make splits from your own hives and allow them to raise their own queens. The bees know best which eggs will make the best queens for their area (Mraz).


I would NOT recommend this. Walkaway splits are very hit or miss. Sometimes you can have a decent colony, some times it's a dud that needs to be replaced (either by you or by supercedure), and sometimes a replacement isn't available and you lost a colony.

For a rather lengthy discussion on emergency queens (which is what you would be making with a walk away split) check out this thread: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249524&highlight=emergency It's alot to get through, but it has an abundance of information on what you are trying to do.

Others will tell you that "walk away splits have worked fine for me" and I'm sure they have. But when it's hit or miss, and you only have 2 hives, you really don't want to lose one.

So if you took it down to queens and queen cells, both have pro's and con's:

Mated Queens - 
Pros: Once you get them in the hive, they can start laying immediately. You also know the exact genetics of what's going in there. On top of that, you can split a hive on Monday, put a queen in on Wednesday, and have a working colony on Friday.
Cons: More expensive. You can also occasionally get a dud of a queen. Some have also said that they have a lower acceptance rate than queen cells, but I havn't noticed any difference (at least when I don't screw up).

Queen Cells-
Pros: Cost (usually about 1/5th the price). Shipping (if need be) is usually cheaper as well. Along the same lines, some have said that cells are accepted better, but again, I can't say personally.
Cons: You only know of 1/2 of the genetic make up. If you don't have an abundance of drones in the area (which you arn't likely to know if you do), you could get a poorly mated queen. Also, sometimes queens don't make it back from mating flights (about 20% of the time, or so). This means that 1/5th of your queen cells won't make it to be laying queens, on average. Plus, whenever you do actually get a mated queen, it takes you about two or three weeks to get there. That means your split is losing hive numbers the whole time, getting weaker while the mated queen hive is getting stronger.

Basically, if price is REALLY that big of a deal to you (we are talking $5 compared to about $20-25) then get the queen cell. If you want to save yourself the hastle, and get some REAL BWeaver (or whoever you go with) genetics into the hive then get the mated queen. Because if you get the cell, you are getting a 1/2 BWeaver queen, that is mated with whatever it can find in the area, making who knows what coming back to your hive.


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## timgoodin (Mar 10, 2007)

I'd recommend you wait until your honey flow is almost over, then make up a couple or three nucs with bought queens. Then feed, feed to get them built up for winter next year you will be coming into the spring next year with 4 or 5 hives ready to go to work for you. If you split your two colonies you may not get any honey this year.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

First off, what is the background of your bees? It's good that you haven't treated, but did they come from a breeder who did not treat? If the breeder treated, your bees aren't treatment free, and the odds are very heavy that at some point this year they'll crash.

If you want to expand, perhaps your best option is, FIRST THING MONDAY (you're running out of time!) order queens from B. Weaver. They're selling out of early deliveries... You can order 2 queens, split your hives, give the B. Weaver queens to the two splits. Or order 4 queens, make your splits, and requeen your two existing hives. 

Or, if your two colonies are truly treatment free (that way from the breeder), then get two B. Weaver queens, make your splits, and you've got two different sets of genetics with might be good.
Of course, you can get treatment free queens from other breeders, but you mentioned B. Weaver, and I've used them.
Regards,
Steven


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Thanks for the link, SKM, I'll check it out. I saw that when I was trying to find an answer to this before I posted. I just didn't think it applied to me. 

Dear, dear, Steven. Crash?? Yes, I was told they had been treated. One hive still has the existing queen - MAYBE. I had all kinds of problems that a 1st year newbie isn't supposed to get. I am pretty sure Hive 1 swarmed. If yes, they took the old queen, true? Hive 2 went queenless right away, and we "walk away split"?? - stealing cells from hive 1 for hive 2. It worked and after much fretting we got to a happy "winter stores" level. 

So.... I'm thinking order 2 queens for just the new hives???

Timgoodin - good point about honey harvest. I'm DYING for a honey harvest! Would taking maybe 3 frames out of each hive to put in each new hive set them back that much? The bee inspector told me I'd need to split them come early spring cuz there were so many bees in each hive. From what I've read, cedarhill is right on for swarm prevention. They need the room.

Btw, I'm using 8 frame meds for all parts. Had to start bottom HB with a deep due to nucs coming in deeps, but when I reverse, I'll pop those deeps over to the new hives and get hive 1 and 2 to be all mediums. Don't know if that figures into this equation. 

Thanks so much for the help! I sorta knew this wasn't as simple as I was thinking.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A weak split will not have the resources to feed a queen well. A strong split will.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

Dont do a walk away split. If I were you I would order a couple queens. I make nucs or splits a few different ways.

1 - Find the queen and put her in another box for a moment. Then take a couple frames of brood, some frames of honey and pollen. Leave the bees on frames of course. If you are leaving the split in same yard then shake some extra bees in your split. Seal up your nuc and put queen back in her hive. Next day or later that same day introduce your queen in cage sticking cage between two frames of brood.

2- If you cant find queens very well like me when I started then you can prepare a week or a few days ahead of queen delivery by putting a queen excluder between brood boxes. You may want to move brood frames around to make sure you have enough brood in both boxes to make your splits from the box that ends up without the queen. When you come back in a few days only one box will have eggs or young larva. The other box will only have large grubs and sealed brood. The one with queen will have the eggs and small larva in milky cells. Once you determine which box has the queen in it you are free to make up your split and not worry about finding the queen. 

3 - Another way I use if I cant find the queen and I need to make a nuc right away is to take frames of brood and brush the bees off and put them in a box above a queen excluder and nurse bees will move up to care for the brood. You can come back in a few hours and make your nuc, then introduce queen a few hours later.

You always have to come back and scrap off any emergency queen cells they start so your queen is not lost to a crap queen. Sometimes they will start raising queen cells from eggs your new queen is laying because they want to supercied her. I scrap the first batch off but if they keep wanting to replace her I figure they know something I dont and just let them replace her.

Oh, if you prepare for a split seven or eight days ahead with a queen excluder you can eliminate risk of emergency cells being built in your split because they will not have any viable eggs or larva to start one. I did this once and the only open cells left were drone larva on bottom of frames.


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## Redneck (Oct 2, 2005)

First of all you will not be able to get a queen when you want it, because they will be sold out. Second as M. Bush stated you do not want to make a weak split to raise their own queen, because you will end up with an inferior queen. Also check your split four days after making it. You will probably find some capped queen cells and some uncapped. Destroy the capped ones because they will not have been fed properly leaving the uncapped ones to be fed well. Remember you can raise an excellent queen, but if she is not mated wellshe will still be inferior.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Ok, WI, surely I can follow one of those plans. Good layout. I'm reading and re-reading.  Thank you.

Mr. Mike - what's a weak split, other than the obvious? I'm guessing you are trying to tell me 3 frames and a new queen is a weak split? Is this just a caution to be sure to get enough bees n brood in the new hive body?


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

Seymore.

I just gave you a ruff example of what I do. There is much more detailed literature that you would be wise to read and follow before making a nuc. If you would like I could PM you some stuff.

As not being able to get a queen when you need it-

I dont see why you cant get a queen when you need one if you are doing it in the normal season. If you can plan ahead or find a local outfit who will have queens on hand I dont see why obtaining a queen should be a problem. I only see a problem if you decide you have to have a certain kind of queen on some exact date. You cant call some breeder and expect a queen shiped tomorrow but you can call and see and if they can ship you one then you can get ready for it. If you have a local outfit in your area that sells queens and equipment they may have queens on hand from several suppliers at any given time. You of course have to do some planing. You cant just wake up and decide to make a nuc today unless you have your own queen bank.

Yes there is some unpredictability in being able to obtain queens. This is why I plan on taking advantage of swarm cells this season and keep them in very small nucs as spares or so I have them around so I can wake up and decide to split a colony or replace a queen at the drop of a hat. This is an option you can intertain your self some day it you want.

If you can nail down a time frame it would be wise to reserve a couple queens now. First see if you can find someone in your area that will have extra ones on hand. I have a commercial beekeeper who orders lots of queens for personal use and to sell to hobbyists so from May thru July I can usually just make a call and pick them up the next day.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Mr. Mike - what's a weak split, other than the obvious?

A hive that is overflowing with bees (literally) will feed a queen well no matter what the size, if there is a flow. Otherwise, I try not to make splits less than one deep (or two eight frame mediums) worth of bees brood and honey and an empty one for expansion.

> I'm guessing you are trying to tell me 3 frames and a new queen is a weak split?

It is unless you shake in enough bees that it is overflowing and then do it again in a few days to account for drift.

> Is this just a caution to be sure to get enough bees n brood in the new hive body? 

Enough bees, yes. It takes bees to forage for pollen and nectar and bees to feed the brood. A nuc that is not well stocked with bees will not do a good job of feeding the queen and the queen will be inferior. Feeding has more to do with the quality of the queen than genetics does.

I would raise my own queens and keep a few on hand in nucs because:

Cost. A typical queen costs the beekeeper about $20 counting shipping and may cost considerably more.

Time. In an emergency you order a queen and it takes several days to make arrangements and get the queen. Often you need a queen yesterday. If you have some in mating nucs, on hand, then you already have a queen.

Availability. Often when you need a queen there are none available from suppliers. Again, if you have one on hand availability is not a problem.

AHB. Southern raised queens are more and more from Africanized Honey Bee areas. In order to keep AHB out of the North we should stop importing queens from those areas.

Acclimatized bees. It's unreasonable to expect bees bred in the deep South to winter well in the far North. Local feral stock is acclimatized to our local climate. Even breeding from commercial stock, you can breed from the ones that winter well here.

Mite and disease resistance. Tracheal mite resistance is an easy trait to breed for. Just don't treat and you'll get resistant bees. Hygienic behavior, which is helpful to avoid AFB (American Foulbrood) and other brood diseases as well as Varroa mite problems, is also easy to breed for by testing for hygienic behavior in our breeder queens. And yet hardly any queen breeders are breeding for these traits. The genetics of our queens if far too important to be left to people who don't have a stake in their success. People selling queens and bees actually make more money selling replacement queens and bees when the bees fail. Now I'm not saying they are purposely trying to raise queens that fail, but I am saying they have no financial incentive to produce queens that don't. Basically to cash in on the benefits of not treating, you need to be rearing your own queens.

Quality. Nothing is more important to success in beekeeping than the queen. The quality of your queens can often surpass that of a queen breeder. You have the time to spend to do things that a commercial breeder cannot afford to do. For instance, research has shown that a queen that is allowed to lay up until it's 21 days will be a better queen with better developed ovarioles than one that is banked sooner. A longer wait will help even more, but that first 21 days is much more critical. A commercial queen producer typically looks for eggs at two weeks and if there are any it is banked and eventually shipped. You can let yours develop better by spending more time. 

In my opinion, the feral drones out there are what I want for genetics. They are surviving without any help in my climate. So to get those kind of genetics, I have to raise my own.


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## yamahawg (May 19, 2010)

I started 2 hives last year from nucs as well. One of them I know, so far, I should be able to split. Hopefully the other one as well. If you belong to a bee club in your area, ask around about queens. We have a guy that is raising local queens, and my plan is to obtain queens from him for my splits. That is the best way to go from what I hear. Both of my hives swarmed and they raised their own queens afterwards, but for a split I think I will be going with a local queen from the guy in our club if available.


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## izybo (Feb 7, 2003)

easiest way I've found is just shake the bees off 3 or 4 frames (one frame of eggs and newly hatched, 2 or 3 frames of pollen and honey) place these in a med super above a queen excluded. Come back in 24 hours replace the queen excluder with a double screen board that has a small entrance pointing toward the back of the original hive. This arrangement helps to keep the new colony warm while they raise the new queen. I usually but a top feeder on above the new colony to help since they don't have many field bees. In about a month you will have a nuc with a laying queen, remove it from the original hive fill the rest of super with drawn comb if you have it foundation if you don't. Now you have a new colony with a home grown queen.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

When I took the beginning beek class last year, the teacher said something that made me laugh. I'm sure you've heard it before. "Ask 10 beeks a question and you will get 12 opinions." I loved that - and it is borne out here. 

This has been great information from everyone. Mike, thorough, as always. Somewhere between you and WI is my answer. ******* - I CAN still order queens - I did last night. Cancelled them this morning after reading Mike's response. I am going with my original intent to raise my own queen. Will now do much more reading on how to proceed with this. So glad I asked the question because there is apparently much more to this than I understood. 

As usual - so greatful for the experience and opinions of everyone. :thumbsup:


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