# Adopting Foragers Into Weak Hive



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Cobbler said:


> I have one hive that came through winter very small - about the size of a softball. The queen did a great job last season, so I would like to save this hive. Spring is just ramping up in my area. The bees are getting out for a couple of hours on most days And bringing in plenty of pollen during those times. This hive, however, is clearly struggling to keep warm, build brood, and forage with their limited numbers.
> 
> my idea is to move this hive into the position of one of my stronger hives. I think returning foragers could easily double the population in this hive in one day. However, I am concerned that these foragers may not accept the queen and could overwhelm the entire colony. Does anyone have experience with that kind of thing? Can I adopt bees into a weak hive by changing positions, or is that asking for disaster?


I would simply shake 2-3 frames of bees into it - done.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Cobbler said:


> I have one hive that came through winter very small - about the size of a softball. The queen did a great job last season, so I would like to save this hive. Spring is just ramping up in my area. The bees are getting out for a couple of hours on most days And bringing in plenty of pollen during those times. This hive, however, is clearly struggling to keep warm, build brood, and forage with their limited numbers.
> 
> my idea is to move this hive into the position of one of my stronger hives. I think returning foragers could easily double the population in this hive in one day. However, I am concerned that these foragers may not accept the queen and could overwhelm the entire colony. Does anyone have experience with that kind of thing? Can I adopt bees into a weak hive by changing positions, or is that asking for disaster?


That was once called padgening at least by the old gentleman who taught me. Do it mid day or when the colonies are flying the heaviest. Just switch the weak colony with your strongest. You can repeat as required.


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## cwoodar0 (Jun 13, 2021)

I always shake or brush a few frames to balance population. You would technically want several extra nurse bees to help keep brood warm and in within say two weeks, they'll forage. Right as the blooms start ramping up


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Cobbler said:


> Can I adopt bees into a weak hive by changing positions, or is that asking for disaster?


I’ve done it many times. I put late queens to bed small. I use sensors on a few. This winter I think I’ve only switched one when it failed to generate over 3-4 degrees (F) above the outside temp.

However, I heard a guy talking about going from hobby to commercial. He said, “Don’t chase your losses.”

In my little world they go in with a softball cluster (and plenty of frames of stores), so they are put in an unnatural position from the start. This winter has been a bugger and somewhat wreaked havoc on my little system that worked so well last year.

So I’ve switched out my weakest with a slightly stronger nuc (just by changing positions). But if she gets 3 weeks of good weather and is still struggling I’ll ditch her. I think that’s what the guy meant. Wouldn’t advise continually switching to save the same hive. You just take turns weakening the others.


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## Outdoor N8 (Aug 7, 2015)

I do this very thing, switching hives to exchange workforce, and it works. 
My caution is this time of year many bees coming out are going to orient before leaving their hive. You may get better results of building them up (as already noted) if you go in and manually transfer the amount of brood you think they need.
Slightly different outcomes though, foragers vs nurses.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Outdoor N8 said:


> Slightly different outcomes though, foragers vs nurses.


If a colony needs a significant boost this time a year - it needs 1)nurses and 2)feeding.
That should be the priority IMO.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

If you just locate the new hive in the same position where the foragers are used to, that is the box they will return to.
Newspaper merge? Pull or pinch one of the queens.
If you want to keep both queens, use a double screen board to separate the colonies and stack them so the weaker is above, warmed by the stronger box.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I agree with GregB
Shake a few frames of bees off open brood frames onto the lid of the nuc. The younger bees will crawl down into the nuc, the older bees will fly back home. Less confusion in the nuc this way and gives the queen what she needs to brood up.

Switching with a bit stronger hive will give them populations and will help, but younger nurse bees are what they need to really get brooding going again. You could also just move in a frame or 2 of emerging brood with adhering bees, and add a shake from a frame of open brood.


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## Cobbler (Jan 6, 2021)

I went ahead and shook 2 frames of bees into the weak hive - mostly nurse bees. I’d say that more than doubled the population, though some will certainly find their way home. There was no sign of any fighting, and the new bees seemed to assimilate quickly. Within an hour there was significantly more traffic into the hive than I have seen yet this season.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Cobbler said:


> I went ahead and shook 2 frames of bees into the weak hive - mostly nurse bees.


Yep.

I can understand when keeping the bees in the logs and skeps - you have no other option but move the entire hives around. 
Now days people have all these frames to play with yet STILL keep repeating the frame-less beekeeping methods - what the heck?

PS: okay, fine, I can move little nuc hives around - that is easier sometimes vs. opening a hive and shaking bees; 
but with anything bigger than a nuc I'd rather not be moving those hives; so need to make reasonable choices.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Cobbler said:


> Within an hour there was significantly more traffic into the hive than I have seen yet this season.


be sure this is not robbing, one side effect of shaking the whole frame into the hive in the field bees think, look honey, then fly back and do the waggle lets steal dance.

better on top or I lay a piece of thin ply on the entrance and shake on it . the field bees fly away the nurses march up and in.

traffic can be robbers, just be aware.

GG


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

RayMarler said:


> Switching with a bit stronger hive will give them populations and will help, but younger nurse bees are what they need to really get brooding going again


The forgers will revert to nurse bees just like the do with a fly back split



GregB said:


> Now days people have all these frames to play with yet STILL keep repeating the frame-less beekeeping methods - what the heck?


not having to open a hive and find the queen is a big +, epically if the weather is cool or you have a few to do


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> not having to open a hive and find the queen is a big +, epically if the weather is cool or you have a few to do


Sure, like I said with the nucs that usually my choice - especially with small mating nucs.


> PS: okay, fine, I can move little nuc hives around -


Still, you need not to find a queen when shake bees.
You need to ensure you are NOT transferring a queen by accident - different things.
If prefer to be really sure, just shake the bees through the XC - not that complicated. 

OR - shake them onto the soft cover (NOT directly onto the frames).
Make a small passage for the bees to pass through - that is an extra chance to double-check for the queen after you shake them.
Again, not that complicated.

IF the weather is cool the bees are not even flying - for the hive-moving project to work as intended (especially if looking at 1-2 weeks forward on) - moving the hives is nearly pointless then as a quick fix.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

It's just my opinion, but I don't think reverted foragers make as good of nurse bees as the real thing. I think swapping hive positions is more confusing to the hive than shaking in nurse bees in such a manner that the foragers get to flyback home instead of entering the hive/nuc being shooken into. I think moving in frames of actively emerging brood works better also.

It has only happened a couple of times, but I have had the queen disappear and them having to make a new queen when just swapping nuc positions. I blamed it on the confusion of having too many older bees enter the weaker hive. But having it only happen a couple of times means that it very seldom happens, as I have done it many many times over my years of beeking. And for that matter, it may have been something else that caused the loss of queen than switching hives/nucs with each other as well.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

RayMarler said:


> It's just my opinion, but I don't think reverted foragers make as good of nurse bees as the real thing.


perhaps, but SARE FNE20-964 suggests otherwise... or it could be that using the foragers caused the hive to have more/higher quality resources (such as fresh pollen) 


> Our team saw that the method of moving the hive within the yard and moving back resources to the original position to raise a queen had very high mating success (84/104 = 81%). This method is easily executed by beginning beekeepers and can utilize most of the conditions found to contribute to success (i.e. medium population density, mostly open brood, and newer comb age). Our team called this method a “Run-Away Split.”





> While the 32 emergency queens submitted to the lab are a small and incomplete subsection of the trials, we deduced that the smallest hive volume (6 liters) we used here can indeed produce queens of high reproductive quality, and even without being heavily stocked with bees. 21 queens from the 4 comb (6 liter) Comfort hives had an average overall queen score of 73.3 (comparable to the total average score of 75.6) and grade “A- high reproductive quality” by the Queen Clinic schematics. Surprisingly, 3 of these queens were started with small population densities (thus at roughly 1500 bees in the 6 liter space) and had a combined average score of 83.4, even though this configuration had poor mating success (52%). The 6 “run-away split” queens submitted from double box Comfort Hives (24 liters) had an average score of 84 and had significantly higher weight (229.4 mg verses the group’s average of 209.7 mg).








Final report for FNE20-964 - SARE Grant Management System







projects.sare.org





were this really shines is post flow,
it give you the ability to take foragers that now will do nothing but consume resources and die and turn them in to usefull long lived nurse bees in a new split . 



> Workers also have the capacity to revert from the short-lived (forager) to a long-lived phenotype (nurse). The driving force for such reversal of the normal task-schedule is an absence of nurse bees in the colony, a social context that can be induced by experimental manipulation of colony demograph











The curious case of aging plasticity in honey bees


As in all advanced insect societies, colony-organization in honey bees emerges through a structured division of labor between essentially sterile help…




www.sciencedirect.com







GregB said:


> Make a small passage for the bees to pass through - that is an extra chance to double-check for the queen after you shake them.


still requires opening 2 hives and looking to see the queens is not there. Takes time


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Thank you msl for the links to good information. 
I still stand by my stating that adding nurse bees to a weaker hive is better/safer than swapping positions with a stronger hive, there-by boosting the weaker with forager aged bees. It is, in my mind and experience and training to be the safer move for boosting a weaker hive or nuc. Of course just how weak the one is and just how strong the other is, as well as genetic strain friendliness of each and perhaps other factors will play into the decision of whether to do it or not.
In the end there is more than 1 way to boost a weaker hive or nuc and most of the time either of the ways work. Cobbler has chosen a way and I'm hoping to hear back of the success or failure of the choice.


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## Lou from Export (Aug 16, 2015)

You can do the above -- But unless you want to try one of the above or only have 2 -3 hives OK 
But really they are bringing in pollen, putting a sugar syrup feeder on for a short time till things get going [ a week or 2 ] , and forget about it .
10 minutes vs all that work - it might be 2 weeks behind the others but in a month or so you'll not tell much difference if any !


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## GaryA (10 mo ago)

The question is: Why is the hive small and weak after coming out of the winter (in comparison to other surviving colonies)? Even though the queen was good and strong last season (and you want to save her/and the hive), she might be now failing, or else other factors (mites perhaps?) may have helped in the diminishing strength of the colony. You can certainly add brood frames from other strong hives, swap locations, etc. but check on the queen - she might not be doing well this season, and the hive might continue to decline despite all your efforts unless you get a strong queen to take her place.


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## Cobbler (Jan 6, 2021)

GaryA said:


> The question is: Why is the hive small and weak after coming out of the winter (in comparison to other surviving colonies)? Even though the queen was good and strong last season (and you want to save her/and the hive), she might be now failing, or else other factors (mites perhaps?) may have helped in the diminishing strength of the colony. You can certainly add brood frames from other strong hives, swap locations, etc. but check on the queen - she might not be doing well this season, and the hive might continue to decline despite all your efforts unless you get a strong queen to take her place.


Thanks. At this point, there really is nothing to save except the genetics. We are talking maybe 1000 bees. Maybe the hive survives and takes off again with the warm weather. If not, my hope would just be too get a new queen started from these genetics.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Cobbler said:


> At this point, there really is nothing to save except the genetics.


Is the said genetics worth saving?

I have a similar weakling; this queen is not worth saving given the crappy traits; I will just re-queen it in due time.


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## Cobbler (Jan 6, 2021)

GregB said:


> Is the said genetics worth saving?
> 
> I have a similar weakling; this queen is not worth saving given the crappy traits; I will just re-queen it in due time.


That’s a good question. I went into the winter thinking it would be great to split them in the spring, but if these genetics struggle to survive the winter, then maybe not.

if their survival is a question of simply shaking a few bees or moving the hive, then that is probably some thing worth doing. If they don’t survive into the upcoming easy season, then it will not be a huge loss.


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