# insulating hives?



## oldfast (Oct 20, 2008)

I have two winters keeping bees. The first winter I didn't insulate and lost the only hive we had. The second winter I insulated all but one hive and it didn't make it could have been weak. The other hives overwintered well. Does anyone have experience insulating there hives with success and how do you go about doing it.


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

I've never insulated here but one of my buddies does. We're both at about 2000ft elevation.

He staples either felt or tarpaper around his, with nothing additional except propping the outer cover up for a little ventilation.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

I don't insulate but I do put up a wind block. The bees seem to do fine without it and from what I have heard you have to worry more about moisture if you do.

I wonder if your bees died from starvation more then cold...which is usually the case.

BTW I am over 8000 ft here and it was 7 degrees yesterday morning...got up to 44 today and the bees were flying all over the place... :thumbsup:


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I don't insulate but I wind block. I don't want brood too early in the season and I worry about that when I insulate.


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## Dr.Wax (Apr 30, 2008)

I attended a beekeeping conference this weekend and the experts said do not insulate- bees need ventilation. The danger is that condensation forms on the top and freezes then melts and drips cold water onto the bees.

If they are a strong, healthy hive they will warm themselves overwinter.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.mdasplitter.com/article.htm

If you look at Mel Disselkoen's article, his conclusion was that a wind break helped a lot and wrapping etc. did not. I find it makes more of a difference the smaller the cluster is and the more severe the weather is, but condensation is often a bigger issue. I cluster my hives together and cluster my nucs together with foam above and below:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/WinteringNucs2-2007.jpg


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I insulate the inner cover, and I do wrap with 15 lb felt. Just finishing up the 35th year I've wrapped bees. 

I don't think it helps every year, but does often enough to keep me at it. Some years, the bees here won't have a cleansing flight from mid-November to April. By March, the bees are needing a cleansing flight. There will be days that are almost warm enough...just not quite so. I've seen such days...25-30 degrees, sunny, no wind. The black paper warms up the hive environment, both inside and out. At the end of the day, there are 4' wide strips of yellow snow in front of the hives, while there is no spotting on the snow away from the hives. Also, there are no dead bees on the snow.

Where I keep bees, you never know when you'll get a year like that.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Dr.Wax said:


> The danger is that condensation forms on the top and freezes then melts and drips cold water onto the bees.


Privide an upper entrance, and insulation on the inner cover.


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## MichelinMan (Feb 18, 2008)

The way I see it is condensation is the main problem. Solution?... ventilate by using an additional upper entrance on the same side as the lower entrance AND insulate the inner cover. Condensation occurs when moist warm air touches a cold surface. If you insulate, then the outer surfaces will be less cold, hence less condensation. Same is true for ventilation... moist air is expelled and once again less condensation.


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## albee (Nov 16, 2006)

I wrap most of my hives. I never have enough wraps. They help in the late cold snaps in spring when the bees have brood that they sit on and starve 1" from honey. When you open a hive like that it makes it worth it. Last year over wintered some hives inside. Going to try it again. Had good luck. If I have the same thing this year the wraps will go to the burn pile.


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

*insulating the inner cover*

Pardon my ignorance, but.....
What are the procedures for insulating the inner cover?

Thanks?


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## MichelinMan (Feb 18, 2008)

Well NDnewbeek, the way I do it is just staple 2 or 3 peices of thick cardboard to the inner cover (on the deep side away from the bees facing the outer cover). I also block up the hole with folded paper towels or news paper and cover that with cardboard too. I put a peice of styrofoam then on top of that. (my covers have deep sides so I can build up the inner cover without any problems. The important thing is to use water absorbant material.


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## drmrjen (Oct 24, 2020)

I've been reading that some beeks are wrapping their hive with large black garbage bags for winter insulation? Would the black garbage bag store the sun warmth as much as tar paper? and would the black garbage bag also work as a wind break?


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

oldfast said:


> I have two winters keeping bees. The first winter I didn't insulate and lost the only hive we had. The second winter I insulated all but one hive and it didn't make it could have been weak. The other hives overwintered well. Does anyone have experience insulating there hives with success and how do you go about doing it.


Contrarian Opinion: I insulate all-year now. I have R20 top insulation, R10 side insulation and no top vent. Deep snow is a consideration and I am working on a solution, a solution to handle dangerous CO2 levels. We only get 3 foot blizzards every 50 years. I am retired and can clean my entrances if needed. but I am getting older.

I have progressively improved the heath, quantity and size of my colonies. I now have 9 hives and 2 nucs. My biggest problem is too much honey even with a 3 month drought. Strange? I also base my decisions based on accurate measurements of temperature and rough Relative Humidity ( +/-7% RH) measurements at the top of the hive - just above a canvass inner cover. I am buying more sensors to improve my understanding. 

Sorry for rambling - best of luck. 

Moisture or condensation: I am still learning but I have seen no winter moisture issue. The inner hive temperatures always seem to be above the dew point ( calculate dew point from temperature and RH measurements). I had to make my insulation scheme water tight to prevent Nor-Eastern driven rain storms form driving water into the hives. I watched that event one day with bees lined up drinking the water - very interesting observation. Bees, specifically large colonies have died from dehydration ( Scotland testing report). I am beginning to believe the honey bees, when the ability is given to them, to control the dew point by heating the air mass. It works most of the time except in summer when it is hot, 85 to 95F and RH is very high - foggy and high RH here along the coast. Impossible to control with heat alone unless you make a dehumidifier so I think the beard when this happens. The amount of bearding I see has been greatly reduced with all-year insulation ( by observation).

Their is one unique, random event which occurs when "tub" feeding in the Fall, usually near the end of October. The syrup tub seems to become a moisture condenser on one out of 9 hives. The hive appears to stop taking syrup and a cold snap comes in ( we got freezing weather and snow). The tub feeder collectsa fair amoutn of water on the syrup side of the split feeder. The dry side has little water and no "crystals". I have seen this twice in two years. I intend to investigate next year, if possible. Could the bees have clustered in response to the sudden cold snap, reduced heat generation and the feeding tub temperature drops below the dew point - all other hives remainded active as noted by continuous sugar consumption. I also have seen sugar blocks melt and drip in similar conditions. BTW - no apparent damage form any event. Crazy idea or question - could the bees be collecting water for winter?? Crazy ??  

Spring impact of insulation has been ntoed for a long time. Summer impact is really surprising.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

I didn't get to insulate when a cold snap came for 3 days (4 days ago). I noted when I peeked in that I had condensation dripping from cover into hive, a lot.
I put on the deep box for a quilt box with Burlap in it for the time being top at least stop the drips going into hive.
Huge warm up here in New England with temps hitting mid/upper 60's till next Wednesday!

This is my 1st Winter, I was going to do big insulation wraps on them but changed my mind .
I'll put some more burlap in the very top deep I put on ( dry sugar will be below it), and roofing felt around the outside with upper & lower entrances open.

I am wondering if I need to add foam insulation on top of the burlap though...


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Tigger19687 said:


> I didn't get to insulate when a cold snap came for 3 days (4 days ago). I noted when I peeked in that I had condensation dripping from cover into hive, a lot.
> I put on the deep box for a quilt box with Burlap in it for the time being top at least stop the drips going into hive.
> Huge warm up here in New England with temps hitting mid/upper 60's till next Wednesday!
> 
> ...


TIgger " ( dry sugar will be below it)" bee careful - sugar is hydroscopic. I have had it dripping down but did nor detect any real damage. Did you notice any damage from the dripping cover? If you want to learn to manage hte moisture issue, read up on relative humidity, temeprature and dew point issues. The DOE has a good section on house design that applies.


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

Tigger19687 said:


> I am wondering if I need to add foam insulation on top of the burlap though...


You did well adding the burlap. It soaks up excessive moisture. I have insulation over my burlap under the tele lid as well as over the tele lid. For me the key is balancing the necessity of humidity without generating condensation directly on the cluster. So when I feel the burlap its damp. And just below it they are happy as a clam eating sugar slurry in the food court.

Just be diligent as you tinker with your design.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

Our weather this year is so all over the place.
I left the burlap and have not been inside and Won't go back inside to add more burlap untill temps start to hit 30's steadily. 
I don't think I'll add anything outside the lid and just wrap with felt. They need to get through our Winter with out over helping them.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

Robert Holcombe said:


> TIgger " ( dry sugar will be below it)" bee careful - sugar is hydroscopic. I have had it dripping down but did nor detect any real damage. Did you notice any damage from the dripping cover? If you want to learn to manage hte moisture issue, read up on relative humidity, temeprature and dew point issues. The DOE has a good section on house design that applies.


Thank you, the temp swings were not something we have like this, and this being my first year, I was not ready for it.
I didn't notice any damage as there was syrup bins inside so I think it mostly went on that.
But had water coming out the entrance due to the 3 days of wind rain we had 

It seems all dry now and I now have the hives tilted forward a bit plus taped the box seams where it connects to each box and bottom board..... just to be safe that there are no other gaps where water can come in.
The burlap will grab any more moisure so I feel safe on that for now.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Wind generated pressure while raining sure finds leaks fast. I tell the story of a Nor"Easter and my detecting a humidity issue. Suited up and wen tout to check the hive. Caught a break in the heavy rain, lifted the the covers and low behold - honey bees lined up drinking the water as it came in on three rim sides. Wish I had a camera!


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

Water is fundamental to all life, And so it begins. The winter water discussion. Bees go nuts for water in winter. Tom Seeley said the most enthusiastic waggle he had ever seen was for water in winter. Striking a balance between water/humidity and ventilation is the great recipe for over wintering, Wrap too tight and you create too much moisture with nowhere to go. Not enough and there’s no real benefit. 

My big experiment was spritzing water on the landing board in December when no one was flying. I did not expect to see them flip out but that’s exactly what they did. After 20 minutes of nonstop water feeding I would swear to you I smelled honey. They needed it to feed properly.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

LAlldredge said:


> Water is fundamental to all life, And so it begins. The winter water discussion. Bees go nuts for water in winter. Tom Seeley said the most enthusiastic waggle he had ever seen was for water in winter. Striking a balance between water/humidity and ventilation is the great recipe for over wintering, Wrap too tight and you create too much moisture with nowhere to go. Not enough and there’s no real benefit.
> 
> My big experiment was spritzing water on the landing board in December when no one was flying. I did not expect to see them flip out but that’s exactly what they did. After 20 minutes of nonstop water feeding I would swear to you I smelled honey. They needed it to feed properly.


As I have noted, hives have died from dehydration in Scotland. Here, we have wet winters now. Often the ponds are not frozen but who knows what will happen this winter.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

I have a few small things of water out for them now since it is nice out.

I will keep the "water the bees" in mind during Winter too. Might not be a bad idea to spray some at the bottom entrance now and again when it is not too cold out


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

this topic is one of the ones needing "it depends" for the answer.
So we can be in the south or north and in a dry or wet climate.

I wrap for the wind protection and a couple more R in the wall system of the hive.

A theme you will find if you read thru a bunch of wintering threads is the water dripping on the bees.
Some feel and perhaps in AZ, or some of the dryer places water would be needed in winter for the bees to consume.
In an open flat area, some wind protection is also of value.

So as a water dripping "prevention" what works as you understand the cold condensation process, is to "CONFIRM" you have way more R value on the top/lid than the sides. Then, if/when condensation Happens, it is on the side wall, where once warm up occurs it would simply run down the hive and out the floor some how. 

I have settled on using Quilt boxes, and also have a chunk of 1.5 or 2 inch foam on the lid under the bricks.

IMO 3/4 inch pine is a bit skinny to be an optimum hive wall in the northern climates. Most hollow trees where bees would have evolved in for 1000s of years would have had 2 to 6 inches of side wall, with bark as well.

GG


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

I didn't get the wrapping on when this happened last weekend, blowing snow for two days.

Thus are double deeps with 4" PEaroun, 6" underneath and 2" plus 1/4" plywood in the lid, on a 6" stand.

Hope it melts away again, in southern Alberta anything can happen. We had rain once on Christmas Day.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Biermann said:


> I didn't get the wrapping on when this happened last weekend, blowing snow for two days.
> 
> Thus are double deeps with 4" PEaroun, 6" underneath and 2" plus 1/4" plywood in the lid, on a 6" stand.
> 
> ...


One of the advantages of insulating all year is no surprises.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

We got a foot of snow however not near the wind you had with it.

Looks like you got the insulation on, so hives were warm. 

Will need the snowshoes and shovel to get the wraps on any time soon!


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## rdimanin (Jan 17, 2020)

mgolden said:


> We got a foot of snow however not near the wind you had with it.
> 
> Looks like you got the insulation on, so hives were warm.
> 
> Will need the snowshoes and shovel to get the wraps on any time soon!


I began using Apimaye hives this summer so I don't have to insulate. Over the years, I've experimented with fiberglass insulation over my wooden hives, with a quilt box that opens in front so you can place patties directly over the girls without opening the hive. That worked ok but I wanted a self contained insulated hive year around. This summer, I noticed much less bearding & good honey production with my Apimaye hives so I decided to put 3 wooden hives next to Apimaye hives & see what the difference is in the spring, if any.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

oldfast said:


> I have two winters keeping bees. The first winter I didn't insulate and lost the only hive we had. The second winter I insulated all but one hive and it didn't make it could have been weak. The other hives overwintered well. Does anyone have experience insulating there hives with success and how do you go about doing it.


I have been progressively improving my insulation technique over the last 3 years. I also have improved my sensing ability. Currently, under the top cover, I have 10 colonies being monitored for temperature and relative humidity (RH). My plan is to remain fully insulated all year this year, Between my sensors and the assigned brood volume I have a canvass inner cover with a 2 inch spacer which contains the sensor, all fraems are wood fraems with plastic foundation and then foam insualtion surrounding the hive. I have no top vent, closed screened bottom board and a significantly reduced entrance. I have not lost a hive to winter in two years, just queen issues. I am essentially doubled walled with XPS foam, a 1/2 inch air gap, and wooden boxes but not on top which is double foam thick sitting on the spacer. Do not allow air leaks ( or leaks from carpenter ants tunneling - paint the foam). Allow the bees to regulate the internal environment by providing an enclosure that enables them to do so - Conservation of Energy is the principle.

I have only found good thngs with this approach and I live in a cold. humid area. It is not an issue of temperature, bees do die of the cold and can survive cold. It is the relationship of temperature to water vapor or RH internally that leads to excellent performance. I believe having wooden boxes and wooden frames provides a great moisture absorber and contributes to "buffering" the hive. I would like to compare my wood boxes with plastic-insulation hives to see the effects of wood versus plastic. I know plastic hives have elaborate venting methods. My friends 3 plastic hives all died; no cause identified - "bee haver"?


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

rdimanin said:


> I began using Apimaye hives this summer so I don't have to insulate. Over the years, I've experimented with fiberglass insulation over my wooden hives, with a quilt box that opens in front so you can place patties directly over the girls without opening the hive. That worked ok but I wanted a self contained insulated hive year around. This summer, I noticed much less bearding & good honey production with my Apimaye hives so I decided to put 3 wooden hives next to Apimaye hives & see what the difference is in the spring, if any.


Let me know the results - I see the same thing and more with my approach. I f you want to add a cheap sensore system, let me know.


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## rdimanin (Jan 17, 2020)

Robert Holcombe said:


> Let me know the results - I see the same thing and more with my approach. I f you want to add a cheap sensore system, let me know.


I would love to get info on a cheap sensor system. Thanks for any help.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

rdimanin said:


> I would love to get info on a cheap sensor system. Thanks for any help.


Look at La Crosse for a cheap 3 sensor system , ~ $40.00. Ambient makes 3000 series display that displays 8 channels at once, includes 8 sensors for about $120.00. Sensors range is 300 feet through air - you lose distance abilities going throuhg wood walls, zero reception distance if it's a metal wall. Mine works for about 150 feet from inside my house. WIndows help a lot. Good luck.


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## purplegrape84 (Nov 2, 2020)

This is what I am trying this year:
Pushed 5 hives together (about 1/2"air gap between their side walls), tilted forward slightly. 
R10 insulation on 4 sides and an individual piece of foam each on top of a moisture quilt board (contains wood chips). 
Dry sugar board under quilt board right on top of bees.
Wind break on North side (old building). 
3/8" upper entrance and 2 lower entrances covered in 1/4" mesh (mouse guard). 
Solid bottom boards. 
10 frames, 3 mediums or a deep and a medium. 
















Because of snow piles I know they are protected from wind. Snow is very dry here near Lamont in Northern Alberta and will all blow away very easily. The other 3 hives were on the East side of this building and had no snow on them.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

purplegrape84 said:


> This is what I am trying this year:
> Pushed 5 hives together (about 1/2"air gap between their side walls), tilted forward slightly.
> R10 insulation on 4 sides and an individual piece of foam each on top of a moisture quilt board (contains wood chips).
> Dry sugar board under quilt board right on top of bees.
> ...


I would use a R20 top with R10 sides - just to insure the top does not get colder than the sides or falls below the dew point before the sides.


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## purplegrape84 (Nov 2, 2020)

Robert Holcombe said:


> I would use a R20 top with R10 sides - just to insure the top does not get colder than the sides or falls below the dew point before the sides.


Thanks for the tip. It might be R20 on the top, I used some old 2"thick foam I had laying around, denser than the R10 I purchased later when I decided I wanted more protection.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

With quilt box and styrofoam above you will have more than R10 above. 

However, how are you venting the shavings? They take on a lot of moisture from the bees metabolizing the honey. Personally, I have 5 1/2 inch of shavings and full venting above via full width slots, at the top, in either end of the quilt box.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

purplegrape84 said:


> Thanks for the tip. It might be R20 on the top, I used some old 2"thick foam I had laying around, denser than the R10 I purchased later when I decided I wanted more protection.


Denser does not mean better R value, likely less R value per inch - it's the air that really creates R-values, and then the foam material is a poor conduction creatign structure.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

mgolden said:


> With quilt box and styrofoam above you will have more than R10 above.
> 
> However, how are you venting the shavings? They take on a lot of moisture from the bees metabolizing the honey. Personally, I have 5 1/2 inch of shavings and full venting above via full width slots, at the top, in either end of the quilt box.


I have no top vents but have a 2 inch spacer with cotton tee shirts and a temperature + RH sensor. Have not drowned a bee in 3 years. Vent the top of the quilt box and you get ice and defeat the function of the foam above it.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Robert Holcombe said:


> I have no top vents but have a 2 inch spacer with cotton tee shirts and a temperature + RH sensor. Have not drowned a bee in 3 years. Vent the top of the quilt box and you get ice and defeat the function of the foam above it.


I have no foam above the quilt box. Where are you located? What is your experience with -30F temps?

Yes there is frost in the top layer of the quilt box during cold weather. However, if one digs down in the shavings, the shavings are warm and dry next to the bees. Venting the quilt box allows the shavings to release the moisture. Wet chips will decrease insulation value and I would think promote mold growth.

I have a 1/2 round hole in the feed shim as a top entrance. It is there as insurance, should my bottom entrance get blocked by dead bees or snow/ice. The bees hang out in the feed shim for a lot of the winter and the thought is the 1/2 round hole may also encourage cleansing flights on a flying day.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

I think the only way to use a quilt box and Styrofoam above and not vent the shavings is to put a layer of burlap between the two and periodically change out the burlap. 

Another option is to place the Styrofoam directly above the inner cover(can't allow bees access to the Styrofoam as they chew on it). Put an inch and one half hole up through the styrofoam and put burlap above in a Vivaldi box. The burlap needs to be replaced and dried out periodically. The moisture from the hive condenses and cold temps turn it to frost in the burlap.


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## ankklackning (Dec 10, 2020)

Michael Bush said:


> http://www.mdasplitter.com/article.htm
> 
> If you look at Mel Disselkoen's article, his conclusion was that a wind break helped a lot and wrapping etc. did not. I find it makes more of a difference the smaller the cluster is and the more severe the weather is, but condensation is often a bigger issue. I cluster my hives together and cluster my nucs together with foam above and below:
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/images/WinteringNucs2-2007.jpg


I'm kind of curious what you or the others think about the difference in survival rates from having wrapping/insulating. 

I looked at the threads on this site for insulating, and it does seem that the experienced beekeepers on this site think it makes a difference, when there's a given that cold includes winter wind also. 

But I don't see anyone estimating survival rate differences... It would be interesting to look at this. 

Thanks for all the comments here to y'all.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

ankklackning said:


> I'm kind of curious what you or the others think about the difference in survival rates from having wrapping/insulating.
> 
> I looked at the threads on this site for insulating, and it does seem that the experienced beekeepers on this site think it makes a difference, when there's a given that cold includes winter wind also.
> 
> ...


Survival rates are more than just Insulation


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Insulation is more then just survival rates...

perhaps
Better spring build up
if better spring build up more honey or bees or splits.
Less brood chilling due to fast weather changes, earlier splits,,
less carb consumption due to less heat loss
Less carb consumption would allow longer time between cleansing flights.

this is not a new concept

Google "Buckeye Hives" around 1920 in Ohio folks used insulated hives.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> Insulation is more then just survival rates...
> 
> perhaps
> Better spring build up
> ...


The night temps. are down close to freezing here till first week or middle of June. Comb on new frames is slow to get drawn out all the way to the ends and bottom because it is too cold there for the wax makers to work. Warmer hive conditions speeds up drying down nectar. Having to stay in to keep brood warm, ties up foragers longer in the mornings.

The negatives are that unless it is quick and easy to off and on for inspections, there is the tendency to leave it off or not put it on in late fall.


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