# New Beekeeper to be. Question regarding Bee Weaver bees and cell size



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Hi,
You have really done you're homework.
If you are buying package bees, & putting them on the pf 120 frames, it won't matter what cell size beeweaver uses. The bees will draw the frames out right for you.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

As far as I know, they don't use small cell, but like you, I have no concrete evidence.

I'd say you are on the right track. In my experience, PF frames are drawn just fine, even in hives less wiling to draw wax foundation. I have been meaning to try BWeavers for a while but have not gotten to it yet.

Keep us updated, I wish you success.


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## Paula Buls (Dec 4, 2011)

Thanks guys,

With all the decisions to be made it really helps to have a little assurance that one is not totally off track.

Cheers,

Paula


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

*Re: Natural Cell vs. Small Cell*

How do the small cell believers explain the self claimed success of the Weavers?

Crazy Roland


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: Natural Cell vs. Small Cell*

Please explain: what do you mean by, "self claimed success of the Weavers?"


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>My question is; I am not sure if Bee Weaver uses small cell size as part of their treatment free practice. 

I do not know, but I have heard rumors that they do. My guess is, *IF* they do (and I'm not saying they do) they would have concerns about accusations about AHB. I hear such accusations towards all small cell beekeepers on the forums all the time. If you have small cell bees you get accused of having Africanized bees. Since Weaver already has had to deal with such accusations (being in TX and having hot bees), I would guess they would want to avoid the subject all together.

>I emailed them but never received a response. 

Silence can be very revealing sometimes.

>I had planned to go directly to the PF120 frames but am now wondering if anyone knows what cell size Bee Weaver uses and whether I should consider a different plan in terms of regressing them (not knowing what cell size they currently use), i.e. perhaps going foundationless (which definitely has the appeal of getting the plastic out of the hive.)

If you don't mind the plastic, I think it's hard to beat the PF120s. I use a lot of them. It's a "sure thing". But foundationless certainly has it's appeal.

If I was in TX I would probably try Weaver's bees again. But I don't want to bring any more hot bees this far North, nor do I want to deal with them again if they are as hot as the last time I had any.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good job paula, and i agree, you have really done your homework.

hopefully you have another beekeeper near you willing to help you with some of the hands on stuff.

i learned a lot by watching and helping an experienced beekeeper when i started.

best of luck!


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

Welcome to the forum Paula. I have B-Weaver and love them. Not sure if they use small cell either though. But they have been great bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm surprised nobody knows about that. It says nothing about them using small cell on their site, if they used it I thought they would say. I will drop someone who used to work for them an email about this and report back.



Michael Bush said:


> they would have concerns about accusations about AHB. I hear such accusations towards all small cell beekeepers on the forums all the time. If you have small cell bees you get accused of having Africanized bees.


 Surprised to hear that. Weavers have been accused of having africanised bees, but not because they are small cell, nobody even seems to know if they are small cell. 

I've seen no such blanket accusations of all small cell beekeepers all the time, or even, any of the time. 

For myself, I have small cell bees and have never been accused of having africans. I doubt many others have either.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

have ahb made it there down under?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

No. And you are the first one to ask. .


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## Daddy'sBees (Jul 1, 2010)

Yo let me in on this discussion. Bee Weaver has great bees! I work with some of them for a friend(and others here) who has two hives of them. They produce large numbers of bees and tons of honey. They can be a little warm at times. But mostly this is after spending some lengthy time inside the hive boxes doing a detailed inspection. They are protective in that regard, but not vicious. And only a few bees have that interest in getting you, not the whole hive. 

Small cells, not sure what they run. but any package will adapt to what ever cell size you have for them. 

AHB -> Yes they came through some years ago. But the dilution of their genetics is great! Think in terms of their life span compared to say ours. They(AHB) have left the feral bees(which I deal in almost totally) with some needed defenses against predators. They are more resistant to SHB, mites, and wax worms!!! I just don't have any mite problems with them!!! I have removed some very hot bee hives that had many predators in and on the edges of their hives and combs. Then when I got these same bees home(to another apiary) into a clean hive, 3 or 4 days later they were very gentle bees. In fact, she is one fine queen!!! It appears that they "turn the heat up" when the internal hive's survival demands it. Otherwise they are great little feral bees!!!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

*Re: Natural Cell vs. Small Cell*

To avoid any argument that I was claiming the Weavers operate treatment free without small cell, I termed it such that they(Weavers) are the one claiming to be so. 

So to rephrase :

How do those that claim small cell is essential to mite control explain how the Weavers(as they claim) can control mites without small cell? 



Crazy Roland


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Natural Cell vs. Small Cell*



Roland said:


> How do those that claim small cell is essential to mite control explain how the Weavers(as they claim) can control mites without small cell?


Do we know that for sure?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Natural Cell vs. Small Cell*

>I've seen no such blanket accusations of all small cell beekeepers all the time, or even, any of the time. 

And I've seen them for a decade. Maybe not so much in the last year, but very often before that.

>How do those that claim small cell is essential to mite control explain how the Weavers(as they claim) can control mites without small cell? 

I don't try to explain anyone's success especially in light of the fact that I do not know the details of anyone's operation and certainly nothing about theirs. I do not know what cell size they use and if I did I still wouldn't try to explain anything. Not treating is certainly a step in the right direction.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

*Re: Natural Cell vs. Small Cell*

Paula, I've used B Weavers for years, with great success. they are no hotter nor milder than other strains I've used. A lot depends on local circumstances (weather, predators, vandals, etc), and management practices. Regarding small cell, the argument, and studies, continues to debate whether small cell helps or not. For me, personally, it doesn't matter. I don't use small cell...I use regular wax foundation and foundationless, depending upon my mood at the time. :lpf: As mentioned by others, the bees will draw out what they want, foundationless. Or they'll draw out what you give them for foundation. Of course you'll discover they'll modify foundation/comb to fit their perceived needs at any given time. But you should be fine with their bees. My bet is they don'lt use small cell, fwiw.
Regards,
Steven


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Natural Cell vs. Small Cell*



> And I've seen them for a decade. Maybe not so much in the last year, but very often before that. -Michael Bush


I'll back Michael Bush up on this one. Smaller-than-average bees were "suspect" in the last ten years or so. Maybe more widespread conversion to small cell has changed that attitude, and that idea seems to be less common farther north than in the southern U. S., but accusations of small-cell bees being Africanized were common, and likely still are common in parts of the country.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Natural Cell vs. Small Cell*

OK well it must have been before my time.

Although african bees may be smaller, I thought it would have been self evident that if someone puts european bees on small cell, that does not make them african. Perhaps the confusion is the accusations levelled at a certain small cell beekeeper who is believed to have africanised bees. But it would not apply to all small cell beekeepers.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Natural Cell vs. Small Cell*

The concerns came from methods to rapidly check for AHB as they spread in the U.S. Inspectors obviously couldn't do genetic tests in the field, and morphometrics of wing veination could be used in a lab, but size was used because so few EHB were on small cell and so many AHB were. Getting further levels of testing was not always so easy a few years ago. An smaller bees found were immediately suspect.

This isn't saying it was right or wrong, but it explains some of the reason why the belief took hold and spread. Greater use of small cell may be changing procedures to check for AHB now.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Natural Cell vs. Small Cell*



Roland said:


> How do those that claim small cell is essential to mite control explain how the Weavers(as they claim) can control mites without small cell?





Solomon Parker said:


> Do we know that for sure?


Yes. So how would it be explained?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Natural Cell vs. Small Cell*



Kieck said:


> This isn't saying it was right or wrong, but it explains some of the reason why the belief took hold and spread. Greater use of small cell may be changing procedures to check for AHB now.


Yes well also you've got africanisation of hives on standard cell, so the method would likely be pretty unreliable.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Natural Cell vs. Small Cell*

Yes, but bear in mind that all of this was happening as Africanized bees were spreading into the country. Beekeepers were not keeping AHB on standard cells (at least in theory), so bees from unmanaged colonies were likely to be smaller than the EHB managed by beekeepers, and small bees were suspect simply because the chances of small bees being AHB were higher. Reliability wasn't as much a concern at that point as trying to keep AHB from spreading.

No matter the reliability, it led to the suspicion that any small bees or hives that drew small cell comb were possible AHB. I've heard and read it a number of times. Michael Bush is spot on with his comments about size and fears of possible AHB.


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## Rick55 (Aug 1, 2010)

Michael
Do you get the PF-120 frames unwaxed and wax then yourself or just use them unwaxed.
If you do wax them what are some methods used to apply wax

Thanks rick


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you get the PF-120 frames unwaxed and wax then yourself or just use them unwaxed.

I got them waxed. The wax coating is very thin so the amount of wax is miniscule.


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## nickermire (May 27, 2011)

Started beekeeping Spring 2012. I got a package of bees from Weavers and they were and still are very well tempered. They pulled out wax on my plastic frames with little to no problem. I'd purchase from them again in a heartbeat. I'm just curious about other suppliers at present.


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## Baldursson (Nov 22, 2011)

I have 2 packages coming from B Weavers in April. I asked them specifically about the size of their bees. The do not use small cell bees. Their bees are on standard foundation.

So they maintain their treatment free w/o SC.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

I got 4 packages last year from BeeWeaver. It was a horrible cold rainy Spring in West Michigan so they had a poor start. I had 1 abscond, one abscond and invade the neighboring hive (that was quite a show), and one do well. The invaded hive never got off the ground and died early winter (I didn't have extra frames of brood to help them out at the time because of the other issues). The one that did well was definately "hot". That would include on nice sunny days with a good nectar flow. I keep my home apiary inside my garden (2acres surrounded by a deer fence) and could not approach the hives without being "greeted" by my lady friends. I was a little annoyed obviously, but they were by no means unmanageable and they never stung through my suit, though they would follow you for a ways. The one hive I have left did thrive eventually without treatments so I was happy about that. I wish I didn't have such a rough start to the year so I could have made a better evaluation. I had quite a few drop out of cluster after installation due to several weeks on nonstop bad weather when I got them. I think a couple of them just dropped below critical mass and never took off.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> >My question is; I am not sure if Bee Weaver uses small cell size as part of their treatment free practice.
> 
> I do not know, but I have heard rumors that they do.


 That shows the need to be careful about rumors.

I said I would report back once my email was answered, and as per what Baldurrson said, Weavers use standard (so called large) cell foundation. It's surprising there are not more threads, seeking to know anything about them / discuss their methods.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I get the unwaxed Mann Lake because they are substantially cheaper. I have an old deep fat fryer with a thermostat and set the wax heat at about 170. I use a three inch paint roller with a low knap but I have no luck with the foam ones. I tap some excess wax off the roller which I leave in til it is hot as the wax. I make a quick light swipe at top of foundation, flip it and do the same on the other side. Then I swipe the bottoms I missed and quickly do two more pressing harder as wax cools and is depleted. It is more art than science, but I have no problem getting the bees to move on my freshly waxed frames.


Rick55 said:


> Michael
> Do you get the PF-120 frames unwaxed and wax then yourself or just use them unwaxed.
> If you do wax them what are some methods used to apply wax
> 
> Thanks rick


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Oldtimer wrote:

Weavers use standard (so called large) cell foundation. 

So if numerous studies, that have been vilified, state that small cell has no effect, and Weavers succeed treatment free without small cell, what explanations are left to explain the success of those on small cell? No one on small cell seems to be willing to change back part of there hives to "regular" and report their results.

Before you hate me, I am looking at reproducing my Great Grandfather's foundation mill(now in a public bee museum) and try the same size foundation her used in the late 1800's.

Crazy Roland


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Hi Roland!
How are the bees doing up there? 
And, do you know what size cell your Great Grandfather used? Keep us posted on your developments, it will be interesting.
Regards,
Steven


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We don't peek before we make the rounds in spring. If they are dead now, they will still be dead in March, no rush. The "guard" hive by the garage door is looking good.

You have inspired me, might have time to post tonight?

Crazy Roland


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Grrrrrrr.... I think the cat ran off with 2 of my "etchings". This is what I have so far. If this should be a seperate thread, to respect the OP, some one make it so.

MFG. Owner Current Location Vert. spacing	Hor sp.	Metric	

A.I Root August Laechelt Cassville, Wis. 3.58 .2067 5.25

unknown August Diehnelt Cassville, Wis. 3.33 .1923 4.88

unknown Honey Acres/CFD Ashippun, Wis. 3.52 .2032 5.16	

Olm Olm/Honey Acres Ashippun, Wis. 

unknown Lapp's showoom Reeseville, Wis.



I will try to find the missing ones and edit them in. If my math is wrong, let me know.

The oldest with numbers is from August Diehnelt, donated in 1924. Some may recognize the Olm name, it should be the oldest

Crazy Roland


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I bought one Bee Weaver queen early last summer.
The mail lady left her in my black mail box on a 85 degree day for a few hours before I realized I had missed her. Couldn't believe she could be that stupid-since the PKG was clearly marked in huge letters LIVE QUEEN BEES,etc, etc.
Anyway, Laura from Bee weaver sent me another queen immediately at no charge.Talk about customer service.
I had read a lot of Internet stuff about their queens being hot. I put this hive on the far end of my bench..just in case. That queen went to town, started laying immediately and was a great producer. Bees were not aggressive at all, great production all the way around. Had the highest numbers going into fall than all my other hives-but to be fair, it was on the end of the bench and probably was the recipient of some drifting.
She was introduced into a 5 frame split from Italians that most certainly had mites. All the new additional frames in the new split were foundationless. I did not treat the hive for mites and it is my strongest hive as of my inspections here two days ago (In the 60's) The same Bee weaver marked queen is still heading the hive. Bees are small and busy. Remains to be seen if when she is superceded by daughter queen-how hot that cross will be. I may eventually have to re queen if the daughters are too hot, but was very happy with that single specimen.

Gentle bees are great until the yellow jackets come a callin'. I'd rather have a little defensiveness and live hives over dog gentle bees/dead hives. 
My Cordovans were the gentlest bees and yellow jackets ATE them up.

[Edit]


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes one of weavers claims is you can put one of their queens into a hive with varroa, and over time the varroa will become less.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Laura from Bee weaver sent me another queen immediately at no charge.Talk about customer service.

That has been my experience with their customer service as well over many decades they have been that good.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well if some of your bought queens are from them you may have no need of small cell!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I bought queens from Weaver and then B. Weaver for 30 years. I liked them (up until the last batch). They all died from Varroa when it showed up and again when I tried some more...


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Really neat way to see what was in use in the past, Roland. If I were you, I would start a new thread with that information in it. Especially if you can put more dates with them, and fill in the sizes on the last couple. Without clear dates on all of them, it appears that sizes were increased over time (like has been suggested many times) or that different beekeepers had different preferences even then for cell sizes in foundation. Or maybe quality control didn't result in very precise measurements, and beekeepers simply didn't notice the differences much.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I'll add to Roland's list when I get my new(old) John Vandervort mill in hand. I think it's around 5.0, 1888.


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## beeweaver (Sep 2, 2008)

Hi, I had a beekeeper email and ask me what we size foundation we have our bees on and ask that I let the BeeSource group know. We use regular size foundation in our hives. The only change in foundation we made over the years was to give plastic foundation a try... which was a mistake.  We quickly went back to getting our foundation pressed out of our own beeswax via Dadant or Kelley. Hope this helps! best, Laura


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Oh that's interesting, so it's normal size, treatment free comb foundation?


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## beeweaver (Sep 2, 2008)

Right... one of Danny's theories about wax and chemicals is that it soaks up the chemicals overtime so we don't buy foundation made from other beekeeper's wax. We want our own back. Until we all go chemical free!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

"Normal size" meaning 5.4 mm?


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## beeweaver (Sep 2, 2008)

The standard size, can't say that I know the exact size but I know it is not small cell. Our foundation is the same we were using when I first started in the bees ~ 20 year... and that that was the same they had used for decades. I also don't see a difference in size from their burr comb comb and the foundation comb... so it must be natural!


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

Yay! Laura, Thank You for getting in on this.


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## beeweaver (Sep 2, 2008)

You're welcome, thank you for the opportunity. Spring is on its way, I hope everyone has a wonderful season with their bees.


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