# Approaching Africanization and Treatment-Free Beekeeping



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

This subject was brought up in another thread so I thought I would delve deeper into the discussion.

Africanized bees are an issue we all will deal with eventually.

We were talking about whether or not Dee Lusby's bees were Africanized and it was my position that it doesn't matter. Dee claims her bees are not Africanized. So do several others who have worked with them. Whether or not they actually are is immaterial. Facts are Africans have already moved past her area.

If she can get African bees that tame and that productive, then she's winning in an area others cannot. Do I want hot bees? Of course not. But I'm not going to have much of a choice at a point. African bees can be tamed but to what point? 

What effect will they have on us? Will big breeders be able to maintain tame stock? Will we be able to maintain tame stock? Will we be able to capitalize on African disease resistance and still have workable bees?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

> If she can get African bees that tame and that productive

Are you saying the bees on that video look tame?

And what figures do you have on Dee's production?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Just read the post, and try answer the questions if you have somthing to contribute. There will be no arguments.

If you disagree with something someone has said, the proper way to air that disagreement is to state your disagreement and your case for it. Please don't post rapid fire questions picking apart the premise while ignoring the purpose of the post. We will maintain civility in this forum.


With the possible exception of Oldtimer, we all here are going to have to deal with Africans eventually in some way. What is that way? I'd rather work what I saw in the video than a hive of real Africans any day.


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## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

Agreed with odfrank...

Just a few videos doesnt tell us much. I admit the hives looked productive however the detail are not there and I consider this a moot discussion.

Actual dna testing to prove what they are because I have never seen hives of that size or bees that active while in them and I hope I never see that. I watch the video(s) a few times and I did see bees clustering on them while they worked which made me go hmmm when I white suit turned black one the should, crotch and wowzer on the them going at the face.

More info is needed, actual facts would help.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

This thread is not about Dee's bees, "LUS Bees" is. Please stay on topic.


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## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

Sorry half or over half references Dee's, it is a little confusing.

Well AHB can bee control as long as you can keep European honey bee queen. From what I have been taught once a AHB is introduced into a hive it is nearly impossible to requeen. According to dna testing a AHB queen can not be breed to be tamer because she maintains the AHB traits and breeding with non-AHB drones doesnt matter. Reference Glenn Ap. they have a section on dna and traits and how they are passed from one generation to another.

As for the requeening, I attended a course last month were they state that requeen is almost impossible due to rejection of the European queen.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Requeening is HARD, but not impossible... the aggression traits are more heavy carried by the drones, and since the drones are direct links from the queen, you will need to maintain consistent European queens.. true enough, your European queens can be mated by AHB drones and thus produce aggressive colonies, but they are not producing AHB drones, thus catching this in time (before she is replaced by a queen from her own eggs, which would possibly be fertilized by the AHB drone, and this produce AHB drones herself) will keep you safe from spreading the genetics... swarm control is very important... flooding your yards with drones is also... the more you use drone brood for varroa control, the more likely you are to pick up AHB genetics via swarming or superceding... work your hives often and keep an eye out for excessive bearding, runny bees, and any form of aggression... there are no serious benefits to AHB genetics... these are not a breed of bee afterall.. just a mix of of muts that interbred with hybrid colonies over time... dilution is the key to stopping the spread, mated queens from tested areas is the way to keep up the dilution... it is my understanding that Lus bees were tested by the state of Arizona and found to be AHB hybrids, thus the state revoked the privilege of shipping or dispersing them until further tests could prove that they were void of the genetics... Sol, I know you were thinking about getting some, but please keep the bee keepers in your area in mind before attempting it.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Thank you for the information Russell, have you heard about the re-domestication of Africanized bees in Brazil?

I found this on Wikipedia and elsewhere. "Not all Africanized hives are defensive; some are quite gentle, which gives a beginning point for beekeepers to breed a gentler stock. This has been done in Brazil, where bee incidents are much less common than they were during the first wave of the Africanized bees' colonization. Now that the Africanized bee has been "re-domesticated", it is considered the bee of choice for beekeeping in Brazil. It is better adapted to the tropics and so it is healthier and more industrious than European bees."

What do you think?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Sol, most of the time you cross races in a species, you get hybrid vigor. That is not the case when you cross AHB X EHB. You get what is called an incompatible hybrid. The offspring is physically and genetically weaker than its parents. Since Russell is an Entomologist, I will defer to him on the details. ROGER MORSE------DILUTION IS THE SOLUTION>>>TK


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

I am on the border of AHB territory, and I am an urban beekeeper, so this subject is near and dear to me. I have read about AHB alot and discussed this with Dewey Caron, who knows a bunch on this subject. I am quite certain that I have run into some real live AHB, although they have not officially been found in Tulsa County. I don't know as much about AHB as folks further south, but I think I have some knowledge

I think there's some questionable assumptions lurking in the OP.

It is probably not correct that everybody in the US is going to have to deal with AHB. The question is, for a given location, whether EHB or AHB are more suited to the environment. Where AHB clearly have the advantage, they take over the EHB, and they do it quickly without hybridization. They simply take over. From Brazil to Northern Mexico, there was essentially no hybridization. The EHB population died. It is important to remember that the reason folks in Brazil brought over AHB was that EHB did not do well there. EHB did not naturally swarm in South America. For all their faults, AHB created a viable beekeeping industry in S. and Central America, and they directly created more opportunities for agriculture. 

In a particular location, if AHB can survive okay, there are several ways that they can outdo to EHB to spread their genes, including:

1. They swarm more;

2. They can live in smaller and more varied places; 

3. The AHB queens and drones have mating flights at different times of day;

4. The AHB drones are faster and catch EHB queens;

5. When part AHB queen cells are in a hive with EHB queen cells, the AHB hatch first;

6. AHB can take over EHB hives outright; 

7. AHB are more disease and pest resistant, especially as to varroa.

However, the other reality is that AHB are not as well-suited to all climates. Harsh winters are bad for AHB survival. Also, if it rains more than about 50 inches per year, AHB don't do well. The net effect is that there are large parts of the US that probably are clearly more suited to EHB, and there will be another zone where AHB and EHB reach an equilibrium, largely dependent on temperatures and rainfall. In that equilibrium zone, the weather from year-to-year could impact the ration of AHB:EHB, and there would be some actual hybridization.

The spread of AHB was several hundred miles per year in South America. However, the spread has slowed down greatly in Oklahoma. There were no new counties in Oklahoma last year where AHB were found. That's not saying that spread has stopped, but they don't appear to be moving much. We had a cold winter last year (2009-10) which I suspect knocked them back. We had another cold/snowy winter this year (2010-2011), and I hope they get pushed by some more.

Also, not all AHB are equally hot. In S. America, the very same hive of bees can be very aggressive at low altitudes and relatively gentle at higher altitudes. It could be that temperature actually affects their aggression. It could be that as AHB move North, and it gets cooler, the bees will moderate their behavior. 

Finally, the OP implies that AHB are not productive or that it is some feat to make them production. If AHB are more suited to a particular location they will outproduce an EHB hive. The world record for honey production by a given hive has been set by AHB in southern Africa.

As to the original suggestion that Dee Lusby may have AHB, I'd say that she very probably has them, since she lives in a climate that is very likely to be more suited to AHB. To the extent she thinks that she does not have them, it is likely that they are AHB that are not acting in conformance with some pre-conceived notion of what AHB are supposed to act like. Of course, I've never seen her bees, and I have no idea if they have been DNA tested. I could be completely wrong, and I ultimately don't know. Maybe Ms. Lusby lives in the mountains. I have no idea. However, if she lives in Arizona and not at a high altitude, then she would be in a climate more suited to AHB than EHB. Over time, I suspect that selecting for gentleness will result in gentler and gentler AHB. I sure hope so. 

The subtext to this post (or at least the other thread) is some person's suggestion that small cell/natural beekeeping does not prevent varroa, but instead it is the case that Ms. Lusby is just raising varroa-resistant AHB. FWIW, which ain't much, I personally doubt that small/natural cell, standing alone, stops varroa. The recent studies by Jennifer Berry and others seem to demonstrate that the supposed mechanism for small cell does not really work. Correlation is not causation, and this may be an excellent example of that principle.

However, just as the OP points out that it doesn't matter whether Ms. Lusby's bees are AHB, it does not matter whether small cell/natural cell actually "works." The natural beekeeping crowd has led the way in selecting for bees that are most suited to their environment and that can naturally cope with pests and disease more effectively. If it works for that reason, then it "works".

Given that all honeybees are invasive species, it would stand to reason that bringing new genes (including AHB genes and Russian genes) into the mix will help to create a healthier bee stock, at least to the extent that the new genes result in more disease/pest-resistant honey bee that is more suited to a particular environment. And that is not an endorsement of keeping mean bees in the wrong places. It is instead a recognition of the reality that the most "fit" strains for a particular environment will ultimately prevail. Beekeepers will be most successful if they embrace that reality. 

Just my 2 cents, and I give it away for free. 

Neil


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Dr. Kerr has several Africanized colonies in South Florida. I believe he said they are workable. That said, it may not be in the best interest of beekeeping in general to keep AHB in urban and suburban environs. 
It is possible to slow the spread of AHB with managed hives spread in a region. I had a great hive of AHB near South Tampa Port. I did wear a veil working them, but not a suit. In that case reducing other stressers kept them calm and manageable. I requeened them because I am in Florida BMP and I am concerned about public perception. 
I wonder if anyone has considered inbreeding AHB stock several generations and then crossing with EHB.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Working on the premise that Dees bees are africanised (they have been DNA tested and shown to be), I would like to know when she went small cell, and how that coincided with when her bees went africanised.

Now that I'm developing my own small cell bees I want to check that I am not wasting my time.

Is that appropriate for this thread or shall I start a new one on it?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

According to the accepted information, AHB was in Arizona in 95 or so. From what I've read, I think Dee went small cell a few years earlier than that.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

So when does she think she achieved success with her bees resisting not just mites, but the many other dieases she attributes to small cell? From the inception of small cell, or or when she got her "resistant" breed.

Just wondering, because I'm noticing people giving up on small cell, perhaps they have different bees?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

WiredForStereo said:


> Thank you for the information Russell, have you heard about the re-domestication of Africanized bees in Brazil?


This is on a colony vs colony basis... of course there are some colonies and even some areas with large groups of colonies that mostly share a genetic link and thus have similar attributes... however, the misunderstanding that I hear most is based on the idea that AHB is just another strain of bee... there are a few differences that need to be considered here... first.. AHB is not a breed of ehb, thus this is not your typical crossing, it is in fact an interbreeding between completely different creatures. AHB have adapted over hundreds of thousands of years, and all bees on earth can be linked back to them... think of it more like a Cerana / a Mellifera... instead of a. Mellifera carnica / a. Mellifera ligustica... the original species may have adapted to the multiple threats throughout its long existence, but what we call ahb is simply an unnatural cross of pure AHB and many strains across a vast area... historically, crosses such as this have either replaced the local species or caused a rift in the natural state around them and were either wiped out by the natural order or bred back to the original species due to the stress. In this case, we are still in the very early stages of the perversion, and only time will truly tell what the final score will be... Secondly.. the transfer of genetics is already quite diluted, and thus the effects are already showing great diminish... pure AHB are not hard to work, the strains of south and north America are not hard to work... it is the unbalance of natural intent that causes the interbred subs to show such aggression... an internal switch that knows that something is wrong and knows that this creatures very existence hangs by a thread, thus it clutches to the most basic of instincts, protection of the colony and rapid reproduction. Much the same way that interbred vegetable plants produce excessive amounts of fruit... because the natural balance is out of sink thus it faces extinction if it dies not adapt... how can it adapt in such an alien environment? By speeding up the reproductive system so that new generations can be rapidly produced, each one more responsive to the stresses than the last. Does that mean that they can be useful? I wouldn't want to... this is far from a "natural" creature. We have to keep in mind that each colony and each mix will be different... after all, there are no true AHBs in thus side of the planet breeding with ehb, there is only a vast number of ehb strains each with different amounts of AHB genetics in their lineage... this is what we are calling AHB... some may not even be detectable with out genome research... others may seem to fit the description from the early days of the invasion... either way, I will choose to continue the lines that have been selectively bred for hundreds of years and have certainly made great leaps in resistances. 

Hope this helps.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well that's certainly thrown a new light, for me anyway, on Lusbys work.

One thing that struck me from that video was how the keepers seemed totally unfazed by the bees behaviour, and instead of attempting to calm things down continued to treat the bees pretty roughly. I guess they're just used to that. Me I'd quit if every day was going to be like that.

What kind of honey yeild does she get?


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

"what we call ahb is simply an unnatural cross of pure AHB and many strains across a vast area"

According to Dewey Caron, that's not really correct. People seem to think that the bees originally released in Brazil were part of some program involving hybridizing AHB with some local Brazilian stock. My understanding is that, in reality, the original bees were pure African stock that had been imported and escaped. (Although nobody will admit to it, the implication has been made that they were simply allowed to forage and absconded and swarmed so fast that it caught everybody off guard.) [ETA: It may be true that the people in Brazil had a breeding program, but I understand that the bees that got loose was the breeder stock that was purely African]

Then there was virtually no hybridization going North to at least Mexico and south to cooler parts of Argentina. (In S. America, they did not originally cross the Andes to Chile and Peru, but that may not still be the case, not sure.) In those areas, the AHB completely replaced the EHB populations, and the EHB populations did not take the climate well in the first place. The net effect is that, throughout most of their range in South and Central America, Africanized Honey bees are really just African Honey bees.

My understanding is that AHB in Africa are fairly hot bees. There is, of course, variation in the AHB population. A single AHB hive can show a lot of variation. I have had a couple of hives that I think had some AHB tendencies, and one was really bad. Give them a little smoke on a nice day, and they were hot but workable. However, there was one hive in particular that seemed to have a switch that, once flipped, caused every bee in the hive to go into extreme attack mode. However, it was not always like that. I'm sure that hive was AHB, although I did not get it tested. The queen in that hive ran around like a ****roach, the bees flew straight into the hive and the bees on a comb would all run off the comb as you inspected a frame. They were different. 

I killed the queen (not a fun time, I had a full suit on and taped my pant cuffs and tied a towel around my neck and still got stung up) and then the hive died out after killing the queen I installed and failing to requeen itself. With hindsight, I realized I should have killed them all ASAP. Hopefully the cold winters killed off any offsping that were out there from that hive.

I wonder whether some hybridization is going on in Oklahoma right now. Last year, I caught two swarms that turned into fairly hot hives, and I still have one which I hope to split into three hives with new queens this spring. They don't act like the hive above that I'm sure was AHB, but they are quite hot. You need to give them a good smoking. 

Sorry for rambling,

Neil


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

I also watched the posted video of Dee Lusby's bees the other day and I'm sure glad she has so many bees in her colonies, because it appears she kills several hundred herself just working the hives. I am not questioning her beekeeping knowlegde, meerely her manipulation technique. Correct me if I am wrong here but isn't it a foregone conclusion that these bees are in fact Africanized? What would be the benefit of her admitting that? In all honesty we had a few hives like this 25 years ago in some of our yards in Virginia. Do you suppose they were also Africanized or just cross hives? I know they made a lot of honey. I would also like to say that since joining this website I have very much enjoyed the professional interractions and created dialogs. I have become more knowledgeable reading some of the posts by professionals like Mr. Russell, and others who are quite willing to share their expertise.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Being an open minded type (giggle), I have been reading some of Lusbys stuff. Trying to find how she does it.

But from the information given in these latest threads, simply having africanised bees can account for all her "successes". Small cell etc would not be nessecary. Also her being in denial that her bees are africanised could reveal a "mindset". I will not be using her research any more.

However, now that I actually have a small cell hive plus foundation to do some more, I may as well continue with that. No longer having high expectations may be a good thing, I might be pleasantly surprised. Here's hoping.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

"Africanized bees are an issue we all will deal with eventually"


Sol, I do not believe that is a correct statement. The AHB did not survive in South AMerica, in a climate similiar to ours in WIsconsin. The mean hives up here are the first to die in winter.Yes, we will have to deal with the indirect effect, that of AHB genes entering the queen breeder's gene pool. I believe Mr. Palmer is on the right course, a Northerner producing his own queens and wintering nucs.

It may come to the day where the breeder queens for southern breeders come from overwintered northern bee. It was done in the past. I believe(help me RRussell)that in the 60's , Jensen out of Mississippi used northern breeding stock.

Crazy Roland


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Oldtimer said:


> But from the information given in these latest threads, simply having africanised bees can account for all her "successes".


You might be able to lay this one her, but you won't be able to do that with a lot of other beekeepers who are not in AHB territory.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Roland said:


> have to deal with the indirect effect, that of AHB genes entering the queen breeder's gene pool. It may come to the day where the breeder queens for southern breeders come from overwintered northern bee. It was done in the past. I believe(help me RRussell)that in the 60's , Jensen out of Mississippi used northern breeding stock.


Not just Jensen. Lol. Several of us have been sending our stock to northern states to be selected from after years of overwintering... then the top queens were returned to the south to be grafted from and to produce drones for special lines that are used for the northern states.. our Sunkists that pollenate the cherry trees in Wisconsin are a good example. The selection being done in the north, and breeding being done in the south plays a key role in developing queens that are acclimated to the northern climates, yet produce them early enough to be used in migratory splits. This practice began back in the late 50's actually, and is still done today. As most of you may know, I buy queens from all over every year, test them for certain qualities and then add them to breeding stocks for the lineage development of particular strains. This is an important aspect of breeding operations that provide genetics for a wide range of climates. 

As to the concern of AHB overwhelming southern breeding operations... it has happened in some... but none from MS and LA as of yet... we run isolated mating yards and study our bees far to closely for AHB to slip by us. 

AHB in the US are an interbred cross, not a pure strain... through proper breeding and husbandry they will not become a national issue... as Roland pointed out, the trouble will not come from their ability to spread, but rather from the purchase and shipping of stocks that carry their genetics... hopefully, the state entomolgists will continue their testing and quarantine procedures of operations that ship queens, packages, and nucs as this has been a great help in limiting their advancement.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Roland said:


> Sol, I do not believe that is a correct statement.


Semantics. I disagree with you, but I uphold your right to likewise disagree.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I think that is both an advantage, and a disadvantage, to someone trying to breed queens in an AHB area. The disadvantage is that nice queens could mate with AHB drones and make a nasty bee as some of the AHB genes are dominant first cross.
But the advantage lies in the fact that drones do not have a father, so those queens will make nasty bees but still have good drones. So, for example, a guy taking over a thousand hive outfit mostly africanised, could breed his own queens and put them out to mate and requeen his hives. The area will get flooded with non AHB drones. So if he repeats the procedure the following year he will get good mating, long as there no other rubbish bees near where he mates.

There are climatic reasons why, at this stage anyway, AHB will struggle to survive in some areas of your country, and likely my country also, should they get here. I don't think it's nessecary to take a fatalistic approach and say they are coming nothing we can do.



Barry said:


> You might be able to lay this one her, but you won't be able to do that with a lot of other beekeepers who are not in AHB territory.


Not trying to "lay anything" on anyone. I'm on a quest for the truth.

Frustratingly hard to sort the wheat from the chaff though, the problem being some people are emotionally attached to their own method. Which is why I'm doing some small cell hives of my own. BTW my SC hive now has a good proportion of small bees and is building perfect SC comb now. I'll be splitting it several ways next spring.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> I think that is both an advantage, and a disadvantage, to someone trying to breed queens in an AHB area. The disadvantage is that nice queens could mate with AHB drones and make a nasty bee as some of the AHB genes are dominant first cross.
> But the advantage lies in the fact that drones do not have a father, so those queens will make nasty bees but still have good drones. So, for example, a guy taking over a thousand hive outfit mostly africanised, could breed his own queens and put them out to mate and requeen his hives. The area will get flooded with non AHB drones. So if he repeats the procedure the following year he will get good mating, long as there no other rubbish bees near where he mates.""""""
> 
> Exactly. From studies it is shown that the aggressive traits are more so carried by the drones than the queen... slight, but still so... the danger in a breeding operation lies in the second gen of any queens mated by African drones... as the colonies created by a ehb queen mated with AHB drones can readily show the added aggression, it is important to stop the generational cycle immediately at that point... this queen will not produce AHB drones, but her daughter will...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There are lots of us raising bees that are not AHB on small cell with good results and gentle bees. I admit I would not tolerate bees as hot as Dee's unless I had no other choice. But I do for now. Dee was regressed back in the 1980s for the purpose of resolving the tracheal mite issues. Varroa wasn't a issue nor was AHB at the time. When Varroa was there and no reports of AHB her bees were still doing fine. Now that the area has been declared Africanized everyone wants to attribute their success to that.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Did small cells resolve trachael mites? I think they've been resolved, small cells, large cells, or whatever.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Michael Bush said:


> I admit I would not tolerate bees as hot as Dee's unless I had no other choice.


My point exactly. At some point, some or many of us may not have a choice. I'm in the "south" you know, or so I'm told.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Going african is not an option for a litigious society such as the US. It would pretty much be the end of most urban beekeeping and hobby beekeeping.

The thing is, you DO have a choice, a beekeeper does not HAVE to have african bees. Re-queen, and where that is not possible, kill. If there are africans in the area it will always be a struggle but it's something that if all beekeepers unite on will make it a lot easier.

I have no experience with africans, but we did have AMM and a nasty hybrid here that would almost equal BWranglers description of his Lusby bees. We also had, in my area, one rogue beekeeper who allowed these bees in his hives, did little actual beekeeping other than put boxes on and take them off, relying on the toughness of these bees to ensure the hives survival. At the same time he was an ongoing source of these drones to everybody else. In the end, by a strange quirk, we were saved by varroa mites, which took out our AMM and feral bees faster than the italians, and now there are no pure AMM's left, I do see some hybrids occasionally although fairly diluted.

But my point being, messing with something like AHB, it only takes a very few beekeepers to make it much harder for the rest. They should really be legislated against as a noxious pest, so everybody will have to play their part. The latest genetic research and feild studies is that they cannot be "tamed".

For those wanting to not use chemicals but also eliminate winter losses plus get a honey crop, you do not have to go AHB. There are perfectly fine varroa tolerant bees available for sale that have been bred from other strains.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

How did BeeWeaver survive surrounded by AHB, does the mite resistance genetics in BeeWeaver have anything to do with AHB being in that area?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

There is debate about that.

Claims have been made by people who bought Beeweaver queens saying they were so hot as to be unworkable. But the overwhelming majority of their customers are very happy.

On beeweavers own website they admit to having had problems in the past from being surrounded by africans, both managed, and feral. To overcome that, they have deliberatly "flooded" their mating areas with good drones, both for their own mating, and with a longer term purpose to influence the genetics of the feral hives around them. The strategy appears to have paid off, with them having few problems now. But reading between the lines of what they say on their site, it seems they are still keenly aware of the issue and still taking ongoing measures. Also, as smart queenbreeders, they are using constant stock management techniques to ensure the quality of their genetics.

Beeweaver have a lot to teach other beekeepers who are considering surrendering to AHB.

I think there is someone from Beeweaver on the site, how about they step in.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

"""Requeen or kill""" """everyone do their part""" Move over Shakespeare!!! Poetry as usual Oldtimer!


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## slickbrightspear (Jan 9, 2009)

oldtimer
I have heard dee say that It took three parts to be able to keep bees with no treatments. 1/3 smallcell 1/3 real food no artificial inputs (IE sugar syrup or pollen sub) and 1/3 genetics. 

As for ahb if you can find ahb that are not agressive and commercially usable does it matter if they are ahb or ehb as long as they are not agressive. if they are ahb and not aggressive then those are the ahb that you want to flood ahb drone congregation areas as it would make them less aggressive over all. 

someone said that ahb does not do well in areas of above 50inches of rain fall per year. how are ahb surviving in the rain forest in Brazil


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK well that may be the formula that Dee uses, but it won't be the only formula, because some people are going treatment free with bees on large cell foundation. However, if it works for her.....

According to what I read, african bees can resist mites regardless.

As to using non aggressive AHB, according to another post, they don't exist, it was stated that the least aggressive bees were origionally collected from South Africa, but they were still very aggressive. And later DNA testing in the US has shown that although AHB have been interbreeding with other bees for many years, there are many of them still genetically identical to the ones that left South America many years ago.

The rainfall one is interesting. It has been noticed that a lot of areas that should have been invaded by AHB in the US but haven't, have a rainfall above 50 inches per annum. So the theory was put forward that in their homeland in Africa, the best time to swarm would be immediately after rain. And in fact, that is what they do. But in some US climates, swarming when it rains would be when chances of survival are worst and so has limited the species. So, what about the South American rainforests? Different situation because even with the rain it is warm and there is plenty of bee fodder year round, so the high rainfall does not limit their spread.

Must add a disclaimer to all this I've never even seen a live african bee so my info is all just stuff I've read. I've tried to garner information on this because I have an interest in queen breeding, and obviously I'm working towards mite resistance. Also the day might come that AHB arrives in my country, but I hope not.
In my reading I try to avoid the more "out there" stuff, and focus on the better researched and documented stuff. There's a lot of info about natural beekeeping and treatment free beekeeping methods. That is of great interest to me cos of course that's what we all want to achieve. But when I discover some of this info is based on the use of AHB, I can't use it. I want to go treatment free with gentle bees. So I need to seperate what's going to work for me, from what isn't. And it's quite difficult, and in some cases people have strong opinions and deliberately emphasize what suits their own view which makes forming a balanced opinion even harder.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Oldtimer;in some cases people have strong opinions and deliberately emphasize what suits their own view which makes forming a balanced opinion even harder.[/QUOTE said:


> LOL you can't be talking about the beekeeping fraternity Oldtimer :no:


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ha Ha!


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

The Brazilian rain forest has only two seasons--WET and DRY. Well the African Savannahs have the SAME two seasons. Thus the bees in Africa and in Brazil are pretty well adapted to the climate in those latitudes. The fifty inch rainfall sheild occurs from the pine barrens of Texas east to the Georgia coast. Most of the rain in the sheild area occurs from late winter to about May. Then it is a matter of scattered thunderstorms that provide the rain over the summer. African Bees like to swarm or abscond during the DRY season. Well it is not so much the rain fall shield that is slowing their progress to the east. It is when our dry season is in the southland. Our dryest months of the year are in OCTOBER, NOVEMBER, and DECEMBER. This is when our cold begins in the South. A frozen Africanized honeybee in a cold dry spell is not going to swarm and reproduce itself. Now have said that, it has been noticed that the adaptable Aficanized Bee has been now slowly spreading to the Northeast into Oklahoma and over the top of the rain fall barrier. Eventially down the Mississippi river and into the heart of the south these bees will adapt and spread. The question remains of what will happen when the "fire", the migratory wave from the west. Meets the "back fire", the migratory wave in the east out of florida. Will enough genetic crossing have occured in Florida with 250,000 European colonies that migrate in and out of the state to blunt the gene pool of the AHBs. And will that have any dilution effect on the wave in the west when the two waves blend??? Something to think about as time goes on. TK


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Did small cells resolve trachael mites? I think they've been resolved, small cells, large cells, or whatever. 

I have never had issues with tracheal mites before regressing or after, so that would be hard for me to say. Most of the scientists agree that Acarapis woodi, used to be Acarapis dorsalis or Acarapis externus, but they somehow managed to make a change and start living in the trachea. Dee's theory is that it coincided with the change to large cell and that is how they got in-- a larger thoracic spiracle. Of course if you quit treating you basically resolve it by losing those not resistant.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

As for the Mississippi delta and southward along that line, we will always be safe... all of our colonies are requeened by island mated queens... as are the majority of the other large operations in our area... some where around 20,000 colonies of safely mated queens along a strong line... this was my fathers idea, and it has worked great so far... you can see the effects on the AHB maps... if others would follow the same objective, AHB could quickly be eradicated.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

On the rainfall issue, I think that it is correct that the time of year when it rains is part of the effect. In the SE U.S., it may rain too much during the time of year when, due to temperature and forage conditions, the nectar flow is on and the bees need to swarm. 

Maybe this also has to do with the different ways that AHB forage (they don't dance and send a whole bunch of bees to one location like EHB), but that is just a personal theory of my own with no evidence.

As to creeping through Oklahoma and moving down the Mississippi, I doubt that will happen either. We don't have 50 inches of rain in OK, so they are not moving through such an area. When they hit Missouri it will be too cold. Maybe they could spread into Arkansas, but if they were going to do that, why haven't they already. I know that there have been AHB down by McAlester, OK for about 5-6 years. That's not far too from the Arkansas border, but they have not been moving further East. Same thing with East Texas. I don't claim to understand the mechanics of it (and I'm not sure anybody really does), but it seems like NE Oklahoma is barely suitable for them and that East of Oklahoma would be less so. 

Of course, this winter in NE Oklahoma it got down to close to 30 below, and a week later it was 75 degrees, so I'm not sure what kind of bee would actually want to live here. This winter, I've been wondering why people want to live here. My joke about Oklahoma is that "There's a reason that they gave this place to the Indians." 

Michael then says: "Of course if you quit treating you basically resolve it by losing those not resistant."

Why would that be true of trachael mites but not varroa? 

How do you know that the "regression" period is not the "adaptation" period? 

Why do the recent small cell studies not point in that direction? 

(These are not rhetorical questions).

Neil


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I am only telling what I had been told from the USDA in Baton Rouge. You should check with the researchers at the lab for a more up to date opinion of what is happening today. TK


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hey that's interesting they don't dance to give directions!

That would mean they really are quite a different species from the europeans, they cannot even communicate with each other. 

Makes you wonder what goes on in the mixed breed hives!


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## slickbrightspear (Jan 9, 2009)

oldtimer
What I was saying about the less aggressive ahb is. People say dees bees are africanized if they are they are much less aggressive than other ahb, and if you are going to have ahb in an area do you want the more aggressive ones or the less aggressive ones. it was stated earlier that there are no nonaggressive ahb but people continue to claim that dees bees are africanized it cant be both ways.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Fair enough point. You are correct.

I haven't seen the bees in person myself. I can also say I've personally seen bees at least as bad as the ones in that video, that were not africanised, so the video in itself does not prove anything. But against that I've read a few things, which includes that they are a hybrid Dee has created which are unique to her, and as such have been nick named Lus-bees, they have been DNA tested and found to include african genes, and also read what happened to Bwrangler when he bought some of them.

But I don't have any desire for a personal issue with Dee, I've read much of her writings and she is a dedicated woman. I was more interested in getting to the core of how to achieve chemical free beekeeping, and am still questioning some of the cause and effect relationship conclusions some people have arrived at.

We don't have Lus-bees in my country and nor would I want too. They say on the video they are just bumping them, not stinging. I would like to see what would happen if they took their veils off!! I'm interested in chemical free beekeeping with gentle bees, that's the aim.


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## slickbrightspear (Jan 9, 2009)

oldtimer 
I agree the ultimate goal is gentle chemical free bees.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why would that be true of trachael mites but not varroa?

Until I went to small cell, NONE of them survived. Can't breed from dead bees...

>How do you know that the "regression" period is not the "adaptation" period?

I instantly regressed them on wax coated permacomb. There was no adaptation period and no losses from Varroa.

>Why do the recent small cell studies not point in that direction?

For one thing they are not trying to establish a balance with untreated hives where the microbes are not messed with and no treatments are used. They are trying to isolate small cell and test it WITH treatments (in order to count the mites) and are not willing to let things find an equilibrium (microbes, mites, bees etc.). In a discussion with Jennifer Berry, Dann Purvis, myself and others, Dann said "it's not about mite counts, it's about survival." I second that. What we want are bees that survive. Now in the end I ended up with very low mite counts, but some of that isn't just the genetics of the bees, it's probably the genetics of the microbes and the Varroa and the bees and the cell size and the food (because it affects, not only the health of the bees, but the health of the microbes).

If all you do is put them on small cell and don't allow a natural treatment free system to exist, you are not really testing what small cell beekeepers are doing.

Now if they would set up four or six yards in a similar area, with half of the yards small cell and half large cell and don't treat any of them and see what happens over the next three or four years, that would be a test I would like to see.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

What are your bees like Michael? Flighty like Lusbys, italians, or what?

Also you lost NO hives during regression? Dees writings suggest losing some is part of the process.


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