# Why should people care about the honey bee?



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Bees as bioindicators help?


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

Simply list all the foods that need pollinators. Then list all the crops that farmers actually have to pay beekeepers to get them pollinated. Of course we can still eat without pollinators but we have gotten use to a varied diet. Forget guilt, greed works best. People want their fruits and nuts plentiful and cheap. Without bees the only nuts will be in Washington!


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

If you eliminate pollination and guilt, the only reason for people to care about bees....those who would not normally care... is if they like honey.


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## Maddy (Jan 20, 2014)

Great project, Pete! 
http://www.abfnet.org/?page=14

While the "No bees, no us," saying is oversimplification, it isn't really a lie, just an oversimplification.
"The value of honey and beeswax pales in comparison to the value of fruits, vegetables, seeds, oils and fibres whose yields are _optimized_ by pollination bees." - _Crop Pollination by Bees_ http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0851994482/thenewagricultur

What "ideas" are you seeking? The scientific data regarding the bee's use as a pollinator is out there, as is the data regarding the threat bees are under, both feral and domesticated (and I use that word VERY loosely. You can't even paper train them!)

I have found the greatest problem with the general public to be that of misperception. Too many people think of bees, wasps, hornets, and yellow jackets to all be the same creature, and hence, attach all fears and dislikes of any to bees. So many people are amazed when you tell them that in general, a bee is not interested in stinging them, because they die if they do.

Changing public opinion therefore has to start with educating people that honeybees are of true benefit to the planet, and are not the 'evil' killer bees we see on bad movies and read horror stories about. That education can get very 'deep,' very quickly, and people's eyes will glaze over.
So, the "No bees, no us" homily serves as a faster way to at least generate a little "good PR" for the bees. Those interested past a surface dislike based on misconception, may then take the effort to actually learn about these most fascinating creatures.

Best of success to you on your project!!!
~M


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

If you'd never kept them, I'm not sure you could ever fully appreciate them without the currently "hip" headline sensationalism that is virtually necessary in today's highly competitive media. 

Yes, I believe the "no bees, no food, no us" is overblown nonsense. 

Essentially, the honeybee is a non-native, borderingly invasive (based on feral populations in trees, etc.) insect that we keep as trespassing livestock, gathering nectar and pollen from not just our own, but also neighboring lands. 

But their pollination assistance (where needed), wax, and honey make life better and more enjoyable for all. Those of us that enjoy their company get an added bonus. 

Almost exactly the same description as the earthworm. Non-native, some might consider them invasive, others even farm them, but they make life better in many ways for all of us. I think they are each a fair to good indicator of environmental health. 

Worms are cold and slimy, while bees are warm and fuzzy. Lol

Couldn't imagine life without either of them.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Peter, I know someone that has the answers you are looking for.
His name is Pete Berthelsen of Pheasants Forever.
We had him as a speaker at the Oregon State Beekeepers Association Fall Conference 2015.
If there is any way you can get him out to NY to present at your conference, DO IT!!!
Why should one care about bees?
Why should one care about butterflys?
Why should anyone care about pheasants?
Why should anyone care about forage that interconnects all of the above?

There is an interconnectivity between many or maybe all of living things on earth and we have to include the big picture in the discussion.
To hinge the discussion on just bees or just pheasants is to ignore all of the critical aspects that must work together in our ecosystem.
Get ahold of Pete:

https://www.pheasantsforever.org/Ne...heasants-Pollinators,-Honey-Bee-and-Mona.aspx


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## Maddy (Jan 20, 2014)

Bdfarmer555 said:


> If you'd never kept them, I'm not sure you could ever fully appreciate them without the currently "hip" headline sensationalism that is virtually necessary in today's highly competitive media.


 Spot on. But with dozens of species of plant and animal becoming extinct every day, anything that can get people to at least slow down a little to appreciate bees is worth a little sensationalism...I always prefer reading about bees over Caitlyn Bruce Jenner... 



Bdfarmer555 said:


> ...Almost exactly the same description as the earthworm. Non-native, some might consider them invasive, others even farm them, but they make life better in many ways for all of us. I think they are each a fair to good indicator of environmental health.
> 
> Worms are cold and slimy, while bees are warm and fuzzy. Lol
> 
> Couldn't imagine life without either of them.


I never knew earthworms were 'non-native'...Wow.
The cold and slimy doesn't bother me, although the dirt clinging to them, as well as their somewhat stringy appearance makes them somewhat less than attractive in an "observation hive," concept. Sea Monkeys were likewise not a great entertainment to watch - I never did see the cool castles built that they showed in the comic books... -_-

I kind of look at them like I do my cats. I am allowed by them to provide shelter. Not quite as much maintenance as litter boxes and kibble, plus if I'm lucky they give back honey instead of hairballs. Win-Win in my book. 

~M


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## jfmcree (Mar 10, 2014)

I see honey bees as providing 4 products and services humanity takes advantage of:
1. Pollination
2. Honey
3. Wax
4. Apitherapy

I know you are deeply skilled regarding bees as I read your posts on Bee-L and don't need to elaborate on how bees manifest these products and how they are of value to humanity.

One thought on pollination....

The "no bees - no pollination - no us" slogan might be overblown, but I don't think it is bunk. There is the popular counter hinted at here, along the lines of "Honey bees are non-native, therefore we could live without them." It might be true as the American Indians were living here before European settlers brought over honey bees. However, there are now over 300 million people living in the USA alone and they are highly reliant on large scale agriculture. Can big ag operations do without their pollination services?

Big ag today often uses monocrop approaches and depends on pollination services (i.e. almonds). We can do without almonds (maybe), but our ag practices will probably need to dramatically change unless commercial beekeepers doing pollination today become butterfly or other pollinator-keepers. These pollination services exist for a reason. Big ag output will almost certainly drop without these services.

Maybe we could make ag practice changes and adjust to lower crop yields. We would not go extinct as we are very resourceful critters, but I would not blow off the "no bees - no pollination - no us" as total bunk. Studies show humans can survive without honey bees. Can human society maintain order without them? What would that look like?

Look how unhappy people get just by a rise in gas prices! Greece and other countries shudder under austerity. What happens when food prices skyrocket?

Jim.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

i don't think people should care about honey bees. They should care about the environment.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Pete is correct, the "no bees, no food, no us" statement is a flat out lie. People lived in the Americas for thousands of years without European honeybees. People with an agenda finesse it, but it's simply a falsehood. Let's at least be honest with ourselves.

People wanting to save the bees is a double edged sword. It's nice that communities are letting folks keep backyard bees where before it was not legal. But some of the bees' 'saviors' are killing bees by the thousands by not knowing how to keep them alive.

I think I would stick with the amazing things bees do as part of their life. Their ability to make decisions, the ability to assess the value of a given space, their ability to communicate, etc.
Problem with that is you are not covering new ground.

Reading through my post I see that I am kind of a killjoy, which maybe is how the 'no bees, no food, no us' meme got started. Without the sensationalism it just isn't lots of fun.

bdfarmer is right; unless you keep bees you're not very likely to be interested in them.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

peterloringborst said:


> Hi all
> I am interested in gathering ideas for an article I am working on about how the public should view the honey bee according to beekeepers. I think the idea "no bees, no food, no us" aside from being flat out false, is also counterproductive. I am looking for sensible ideas that don't rely on guilt tripping, fear mongering, or misrepresentation of reality. I know -- that narrows it down a bit!
> 
> Thanks for helping
> ...


As all complex systems evolve, so has the great agricultural system that now feeds millions beyond the multitudes that were fed before the European honey bees were imported into the Americas. Humans can certainly survive without them, but there would be a steep cost to pay. 

The flip side is that we also don't want GMOs, pesticides, etc. humans don't require these either. But they like the imported honeybees are a large component of the agricultural machine. It is simeminded thinking to believe that bees, pesticides GMOs can all be removed and still expect to feed the worlds populations. 

We we don't need electricity, automobiles, computers, etc. lack of necessity does not equate to maintaining the the current world order.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

jbeshearse said:


> It is simeminded thinking to believe that ... pesticides GMOs can all be removed and still expect to feed the worlds populations.


Or maybe not... "Organic agriculture has been the most intensively studied, and a 2015 publication by Lauren Ponisio from the University of California at Berkeley and colleagues analyzed 1071 organic vs. conventional yield comparisons from 115 studies. Organic farming was only slightly lower, averaging 10 – 20% less yield, although organic farms that used multi-cropping and crop rotation systems showed differences less than 10%." source http://winstonhive.com/?cat=6


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Hi Peter - Great to see a post from you, I know you keep busy! What comes to mind for me is the honeybee as the friendly pollinator, what good family values they have, everyone working together for the good of the next generation, I think of all the good childhood memories of honeybees working flowers everywhere around us as we played, never trying to interfere with us the way a hornet or yellow jacket might, just doing their thing and letting us do ours. 
thanks for all you have done for me over the years!


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Arnie said:


> I think I would stick with the amazing things bees do as part of their life. Their ability to make decisions, the ability to assess the value of a given space, their ability to communicate, etc. Problem with that is you are not covering new ground. Reading through my post I see that I am kind of a killjoy, which maybe is how the 'no bees, no food, no us' meme got started. Without the sensationalism it just isn't lots of fun.


That is what I was thinking. As a beekeeper, a naturalist, even as an artist, I find them attractive and infinitely fascinating. I think the idea that we need bees, or that we need to protect the environment _for us_ -- is a dead end. The earth doesn't _need us_, we need it. 

Most environmentalist dogma focuses either on guilt -- it is a crime to destroy the natural world; or fear -- we are harming the natural world and we will die. 

The problem with the former is that it is basically a moral argument. Harming nature is _wrong_. I may believe it, but I can't prove it. Also, one must realize that in the big picture, nature will always prevail. 

The problem with the second technique -- fear -- is that people gradually become immune to such threats. And using threats and fear to induce a particular behavior almost always backfires. Furthermore, framing it as a question of self-interest affirms that our relationship with nature is basically about us and our needs. This is the very attitude that has put the natural world at risk. 

So, how do we frame this as an environmental question which is inclusive rather than based on humankind vs nature, one that tries to inspire appreciation, even love of nature and the things in it? Because in the end, we protect what we love.

Pete


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

A 5% reduction in world corn, soybeans, and/or wheat yields would be huge. Food prices would rise faster than gasoline ever could. Couldn't imagine what a 10-20% drop in production would do to modern society. 

That being said, I wouldn't say "no pesticides, no food, no us" either. 

But they make our lives easier, and when used responsibly, better.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Deleted


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Bdfarmer555 said:


> A 5% reduction in world corn, soybeans, and/or wheat yields would be huge. Food prices would rise faster than gasoline ever could. Couldn't imagine what a 10-20% drop in production would do to modern society.


Less waste? 
"Roughly one third of the food produced in the world for human consumption every year — approximately 1.3 billion tonnes — gets lost or wasted." source http://www.unep.org/wed/2013/quickfacts/


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

peterloringborst said:


> Only? I wonder how you would feel about a 10-20% pay cut?


If wasting least 33 % of that we purchase to consume, we can afford another 10 or 20% for products.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

In a recent presentation to 4th graders, we were assigned pollination in general at our table, although we had an obs hive at their next stop.

During a break, we thought about foods that need pollination, some by bees, some by other pollinators. A pattern developed. Coffee does not need insect pollination, but is more productive with honeybee pollination. I think peaches are in the same category. Chocolate is pollinated by little no-seeum midges. Special bees pollinate vanilla. Bananas can set fruit without pollination but to propagate (make seeds) one needs pollination, typically by bats. And most fruits need pollination, with honeybees doing much of that.

The bottom line is that ice cream is really uninteresting without pollinators. The kids could relate to that.

We generally stuck to the "one bite of food in three" is due to pollinators. The grass grains don't need it, and of course it has little to do with the meat supply.

We did find most of the kids are already aware of the plight of pollinators, and that's the common feedback we get from the public at most outreach events. People continue to worry about colony collapse disorder, even as our attention has shifted to varroa and diseases they carry. In a way, CCD was a name for a disease with a mysterious cause or causes. I guess now we know the monster better and can name it, so we don't use the term CCD as much, but name the actual culprits. But generally I find the public is supportive and interested in helping honeybees and other pollinators.


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## jfmcree (Mar 10, 2014)

I am amazed with bee navigation. A brief story from this year:

My hives had entrance reducers on them in mid-September when I removed them to install mouse guards. These guards are the metal type with a slider that blocks about 6 inches of one side or the other to make the whole guard adjustable to the hive width. The end result was the slider blocked the location where the reducer entrance was, though there was plenty of space to the left for bees to enter.

Bees stacked up trying to enter at their prior spot, now blocked by the slider. They seemed to have such perfect navigation that they could fly with accuracy to less than an inch exactly to where the entrance was. I thought about this: bees fly a mile or two out from their hive, visit hundreds of blossoms along the way, get buffeted by breezes and dodge birds, then fly home to exactly the same spot they left apparently without visual or other cues.

I then set my car's GPS and it guided me home.

Jim.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I love talking to the public about these smart insects, and navigation is a particularly great example.

They complete triangles in their tiny little brains, compensating for movement of the sun when figuring the angles. I would be dead if my life depended on doing the navigation tricks that come naturally to them.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2014/06/how-bees-navigate


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

Arnie said:


> Pete is correct, the "no bees, no food, no us" statement is a flat out lie. People lived in the Americas for thousands of years without European honeybees. People with an agenda finesse it, but it's simply a falsehood. Let's at least be honest with ourselves.
> 
> People wanting to save the bees is a double edged sword. It's nice that communities are letting folks keep backyard bees where before it was not legal. But some of the bees' 'saviors' are killing bees by the thousands by not knowing how to keep them alive.
> 
> ...


Actually you are spot on. The true fact honeybees have displace indigenous pollinators. While they are highly efficient at pollinating crops, if they were to disappear, we wouldn't go hungry by any means. Sure...our apples may not be perfectly round, and we'd might have to wait a couple weeks later for oranges..and our blueberries may not be so plump, but native pollinators which have been displaced by honeybees would pick up the slack...just like they did before honeybees arrived


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Winnie the Pooh would have been a rather different story without bees, I like it as it is so yay bees.

On a more serious note- There is data for many crops indicating the difference in yield with and without bees. Summer squash (now mostly zucchini) is native to the Americas and was widely cultivated, without bees, before Europeans arrived. If one assumes that a farmer requires a certain dollar yield from an acre for a particular crop, then one can compute the increase in wholesale price to keep the yield in dollars the same, and ultimately the retail price or the price of the end product it feeds (a pound of beef for example).

Carried to it's end this could result in a value for bees in the entire country. Of course nothing is constant, and if the price of soybeans (for example) rises beef raisers could switch to another protean but for the instant the result is valid.

Enough- good luck with your writing-
Bill


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## Maddy (Jan 20, 2014)

Arnie said:


> Pete is correct, the "no bees, no food, no us" statement is a flat out lie. People lived in the Americas for thousands of years without European honeybees. People with an agenda finesse it, but it's simply a falsehood. Let's at least be honest with ourselves.


I think, with over 7 BILLION people on this planet, that when you compare that number with the entire population of the Ancient Americas, you will have to agree there are a LOT more mouths to feed.

So no, it is NOT a lie, but I will gladly agree that it may be a bit of an oversimplification.

Onions? Peppers? Coffee? Citrus? Thank a bee, not the wind...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_crop_plants_pollinated_by_bees

From "10 crops that would disappear without bees"


> According to the National Resources Defense Council (NRDC), more than $15 billion worth of crops are pollinated by bees each year just in the United States alone. Put another way, one of every three bites of food Americans consume comes from a plant visited by bees or other pollinators.





> ...We're serious folks — the foods that make America great are at stake here. Not just fancy-schmancy chef food, but all-time greats like cranberry sauce, peach cobbler, and apple pie. And the continued decline in bee populations would lead to the continued increase in world food prices.


And before the soapboxes are mounted about honeybees being non-native to America, and that they are not the only pollinators, let us step back and _be honest with ourselves,_ that the bees are more a "canary in the coalmine," as they are not the only insect facing extinction from Neonicotinoids, Monsanto's Roundup, and GMOs. Honeybees just happen to be one of those few insects, like ladybirds/ladybugs, and butterflies, that humans can better appreciate and even like, as compared to ants, termites, dung beetles, and others, who also play a very beneficial role on the planet, just not one we humans are very in tune with or appreciative of. Same can be said for bacteria...And people who point out things others like to discredit as falsehoods and lies, regardless the scientific data accumulated.

So, if you are talking a few hundred thousand people, willing to subsist on somewhat bland diets, and GMO crops and MUCH higher prices for things like the lowly carrot, potato, and celery, yes. It is all a gigantic lie to sell 3# packages to suburban new-age hippies who want to save the planet.

But as I enjoy a slice of crisp melon, with a nice, refreshing glass of orange juice, and my ubiquitous stein of coffee arabica, I will challenge the ANCIENT history entymologists who think "thousands of years ago" translates to today's heavily populated world. That is an even worse argument than the old, "When _I_ was a kid, things were so hard..." This ain't back then, and while we could survive on a very curtailed biodiverse diet, what a horribly bland world that would be.

And if there are no bees, you sure ought to understand and believe that there most likely will be no other types of insects as well...That "circle of Life," and all that hippy-dippy environmentalism, don't cha know...

~M


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Due to CCD in '05, '06, we abandoned many beeyards. In '07, when we had things back under control, we repopulated those yards. Upon informing Mrs. Pfau that we again had bees on her property, she replied "Oh good, I can have a garden again" . Is that simple enough?

Crazy Roland


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> And if there are no bees, you sure ought to understand and believe that there most likely will be no other types of insects as well...


Look, what I said at the beginning was that the argument that hurting the environment hurts me, is a purely selfish argument and for that reason, I think it's the wrong way to present our case. 

However, an even worse way is to paint a picture where "there are no bees." How would this ever happen? Only if there were a nuclear war, would all the insects be wiped out. And if that happens, nobody will be here to care about it.

P


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

The folks to ask are those that employ bees. Blueberry farmers, apple growers, fruit farmers, almond growers, pumpkin and cucumber farms, and there are many others. They know the economic value of doing with or without our honey bee.
The folks to ask are also those that professionally study the uniqueness of the honey bee in the grand scheme of all of nature.
The ones to ask are those who shell out the money to consume the honey bees honey.
Ask the seed farmers and flower growers what the bee does for them.
The ones to ask are the producers of products that utilize the wax of the bee in their products.
Ask those who use propolis tincture the importance of the bee.

We beekeepers may not be the best segment of the population to query as our emotions may tend to get in the way and
many of us produce according to what our 'customer base' desires. Our customers are the drivers of many beekeeper decisions.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

peterloringborst said:


> However, an even worse way is to paint a picture where "there are no bees." How would this ever happen? Only if there were a nuclear war, would all the insects be wiped out. And if that happens, nobody will be here to write care about it.
> P


I've followed a philosophy in China, on and off, since I was a kid. A story I read then had it that agricultural areas had a day each year in which they made noise and set off firecrackers to make birds fly continuously, with the goal being to make them fly until they dropped dead. The Party had decided that, while one bird may not eat much, together they were ravenous and ate valuable food. Keep in mind, China had a famine in the '60's. 

Evidently, they managed to kill off a lot of insectivorous birds. So they had a bug problem. So they sprayed like crazy. So they killed the bugs, including pollinators. So now they have major areas where they have to put farm workers up in trees with little paint brushes.

I've never done any hard research on this, so don't just quote me. But if you can find the documentation, there's a pretty good moral in it regarding abuse of pesticides and the benefits of pollinators.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

peterloringborst said:


> And if that happens, nobody will be here to write care about it. P


Except ****roaches and rats. The idea that humans will wipe out bees or any other insect is a bit simpleminded or naive, in my opinion. We can't even eradicate pests such as Varroa mites.

Why should people care about bees? I don't know. Should they? Why should anyone do anything? I wish some people would care less about honeybees. Those people who want to buy bees and set up hives without knowing anything or know where to find out how to keep bees just because people "want to save the bees".

Take care of our environment as best you can and bees of all kinds will do the best they can to survive. And if you own honeybees, take care of them the best you can. But take care of them. It is called beekeeping after all.

I don't know that I really answered your question, Peter. Sorry. I'll give it more thought.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

By "Why should people care about the honey bee? do you mean, "why should members of the general public care about honey bees?"?

Seems like I should have an answer to that, but I don't. Have you brought this up elsewhere?


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Maddy, 
The statement "no bees, no food, no us" IS a flat out lie. Do you honestly believe that without bees there would be NO food and hence we would all die? That's what that 6 word statement says. It is a purposefully sensational phrase designed to scare us. 

The problem is we hear this kind of stuff so often it has a numbing effect. When I am approached by a member of an environmental group I cringe,,,, Oh no, not another environmentalist harpy who will hector me about modern civilization killing Mother Earth!! 

Bees are not endangered. Mother Earth is not dying due to our neglect and abuse. Take a breath. We're going to be OK.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Peter, for me, keeping honey bees is a way for an old guy to connect with the Earth. We live with electronics, steel, plastics, pressed sawdust, aluminum foil, and rubber, as well as overpopulation and pollution of all shades...In short, we live antiseptic lives in practice and in thought. That is why I want to maintain some link to Mother Nature (the Earth).

As a young person, working a bee hive always settled my nerves and reduced stress. I felt relieved when finished working in the bee yard. For me, no other reason is needed to keep honey bees, because it still works for me.

As I make that connection with the earth, the wondrous inner workings of the weather, plants, flowers, insects, animals, and their niche in the overall order of the cosmos, become important and of interest to me. It's a life long education; one of excitement and wonder at things yet to be seen and experienced, then put in one's own perspective.

Our life as the top predator on this earth still finds us beholding to the fruits of the land for our sustenance. When the great zombie apocalypse finally comes, we have a better chance of survival if we have some connection with the Earth and how to live within the laws of Nature.

I don't hug trees, I heat my house with wood. At the same time, I think we should be good stewards of the land and its bounty. Keeping honey bees gives me that connection, finding myself and my family living in the human condition and living here on Mother Earth.

Corny? I know...HTH


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

lots of people have an emotional attachment to bees in the same way we have with song birds. Ask them to imagine not seeing another cardinal, maybe have some numbers on how much money is spent on bird feed. We don't need song birds (in the short term) but we go to lengths to have them around.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Arnie said:


> Bees are not endangered. Mother Earth is not dying due to our neglect and abuse. Take a breath. We're going to be OK.


:thumbsup:


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> I think we should be good stewards of the land and its bounty. Keeping honey bees gives me that connection, finding myself and my family living in the human condition and living here on Mother Earth.


Yes, this is the sort of thing I was thinking about. The connection. I think people need to feel connected to the earth, a part of it. So many people are isolated from the realities of life, they don't have this sort of connection. Their relationship with food, nature, death, etc. is mostly intellectual. Or compartmentalized, like nature is a potted plant, or a pet.

Keeping bees connects one to so many things in so many ways, it's amazing. Of course, you can be a beekeeper and not really develop that sense of connectedness. And there are many types of activities than one can do that help one to become a living part of nature and the cycle of life. 

Beekeeping is especially good for this, though, because you never really master it, you need to learn the rules of the game. The bees are always ready to remind you that nature is uncertain, hostile at times, but with very great rewards. It fits in nicely with gardening, raising animals, etc.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Roland and Whiskers both touched on what I refer to as the "passive" effect of having lots of pollinators around. Lots of home gardens and foliage benefit in ways that are difficult to quantify. In addition to that incremental yield increases probably occur in commercial crops and it's free to the farmer. 
Aside from an occasional almond orchard on a given year, no commercially grown foods have gone unpollinated due to a lack of available bees. Matter of fact getting pollination contracts can be pretty competitive at times.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

peterloringborst said:


> Hi all
> I am interested in gathering ideas for an article I am working on about how the public should view the honey bee according to beekeepers. I think the idea "no bees, no food, no us" aside from being flat out false, is also counterproductive. I am looking for sensible ideas that don't rely on guilt tripping, fear mongering, or misrepresentation of reality. I know -- that narrows it down a bit!
> 
> Thanks for helping
> ...


I look at this differently than no bees no food, my approach at this is to look at Beekeepers livelihoods. Every beekeeper follows the same story line, "we look after the bees, they look after us," 
You "could" stretch that to a broader perspective.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> Every beekeeper follows the same story line, "we look after the bees, they look after us,"


Yes, I get that. I was hoping to move in another direction, away from valuing things because we need them for our survival. Aren't there other values that beekeeping has, apart from survival? Because, as I said, the survival of the human race assuredly does not require honey bees, any more than it requires whales or songbirds. 

P


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Pete,
The more I think about it......nobody should care about the bees.

Bees are the most successful insect on the planet. They have enlisted our aid in conquering most of the known insect universe. They're everywhere! 

Bees are greedy little hoarders. Every day, if the weather is good, they go out and rape, rob and pillage the innocent flowers. They steal the pollen, take the nectar and leave behind a pregnant plant to fend for itself.

All summer long they gather and store more and more honey. And are they at all hospitable? Not on your life! If some hungry bee from another hive stops by for a quick drink of honey she is given the boot if not killed outright! 

Then in the fall, sitting on maybe 100 pounds of honey, if they discover another hive close by that is having hard times, too weak to defend itself, does this vaunted 'honeybee democracy' have a council meeting, decide to tax itself to give aid and comfort to a down-on-its-luck relative? Nah, they cheerfully rob it out until it is doomed! They make the 1%ers politicians are always whining about look like Mother Teresa. Didn't they get the "At some point you've made enough honey" memo from the Prez?

When you check them to see to their welfare, maybe treat them for some parasite, do they fly up and nuzzle you to express their gratitude? Mine sting me. Try to untangle one from your daughter's hair to set it free.....she'll likely sting you.

In the fall they kill their brothers.

And yet........they are charming little she-devils! They tempt us with sweet honey and useful wax. They dance on the combs entertaining us. In the afternoon I sometimes sit by the hives and watch them do the orientation flight air show.
They have enticed us to build elaborate homes for them and devise clever ways to keep them healthy and parasite free. We lose sleep worrying if they are feeling sick. We fuss over them and care for them. They have tricked us!

So no, I doubt the bees need or would care for any sympathy or concern from us. 
But I do love the little demons!!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

First and foremost, for a balanced, healthy environment.

But with so many problems and issues worldwide, the average single person likely has no real conceivable thought they can have any significant effect on the environment on their own. Not when so much of it is run by big business and other political factors.

With the discussion here about food production, it has only touched the large scale commercial view.
My opinion? 
If you want to get people to care about the honey bee, put it in a perspective they CAN have control over. Home gardens run as close to organically as possible, that supplement food to _feed their families_. Including honey bees in that scenario is an important part of becoming self sufficient and less exposed to commercially produced food and a possibly unstable food supply in times or war, economic depression or an age where unhealthy additives are a normal part of the food chain. 

How much will honey and other products from the hive be worth in tough times? They say during the depression honey was traded like gold. Personally, my grandfather made home skin care products with bees wax and was able to make enough he was able to keep his house during the depression.

In days like these when the world is changing fast, home self sufficiency is more important now then ever. 

That is a big reason I care about the honey bee. I don't own them. We are partners in the bigger picture.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

On the bees for bees sake angle, I've got a list of things about bees that make them different to me than your average insect.

First, I have a phobia of roaches. This is viceral and deep-seated, although I cope with it after 6 decades. But bees, never mind that they can sting me, don't even register on my subconscious as insects. They register more like chipmunks. Must be the fur and big eyes.

Bees are "warm-blooded". That's a surprising fact to most people. OK, not quite like us but they warm their thorax to human body temperatures in order to fly and they thermoregulate the broodnest.

Already mentioned, for insects, bees are wicked smart.

Bees are eusocial insects. The concept of eusocial organization got a big boost from recent PBS airings of documentaries featuring E. O. Wilson. Wilson argues that humans are eusocial mammals. This is a very rare trait in the animal kingdom, and the underlying psychological traits required to make us eusocial also make us curious about other organisms that are. We're predisposed to find honeybee colonies interesting, and to see our traits in them, and their traits in us. So predisposed that we tend to anthropomorphize unjustifiably, but that tendency nonetheless attracts us to them.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

peterloringborst said:


> Yes, I get that. I was hoping to move in another direction, away from valuing things because we need them for our survival. Aren't there other values that beekeeping has, apart from survival? Because, as I said, the survival of the human race assuredly does not require honey bees, any more than it requires whales or songbirds.
> 
> P


I'm not talking about human survival, I'm talking about livelihood


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Just tossing out ideas:

Bees, the Ultimate Corporation.

Or if your readership is unsympathetic toward capitalism:

Have Bees Perfected the Commune? What Can We Learn?


The point is, people see the bees through the lens of their world view.

To someone just trying to survive, bees represent honey to eat and maybe some use from wax.
To an environmentalist bees are a warning that things have gone horribly wrong.
To a professional beekeeper bees are a living.
To a side-liner the bees are an adjunct to a paycheck.
To the hobbyist the bees are a fascinating activity.
To the average Joe every yellow jacket and wasp is a bee.
To a scientist bees might represent grant money. (Sorry, that's kind of harsh) Bees are a wonderful mystery to be unraveled.
To a religious person bees are a miracle.

Bees are not one thing. They aren't altruistic pollinators, nor are they ill-tempered stinging pests. They have no purpose other than their own. If they accidentally pollinate a flower while going about their business so be it. If you get in their way and they sting you........well, don't make that mistake again. 

Oh no, wait; bees represent the connected-ness of all things. They connect the plant kingdom and the animal kingdom and in the end they connect us to the Earth and its bountiful harvest. Through the bees we become one with Nature and the Higher Power. They show us true selfless action. 

OK, that's it, I'm out. I wish you well. And of course, you are going to link your writings to this thread so we can see what you have done.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> you are going to link your writings to this thread so we can see what you have done.


sure, but it may take some time. A few years ago I polled to see what people thought were "the most common questions new beekeepers ask." I think two years passed till I finally wrote the article. I have a full time job and about a dozen different topics I am currently researching. But eventually it will all get done, even if not by me

P


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Horsehockey!!!!! Sure, the human race would not perish without bees, but only the rich would have a colorful plate. The middle class and poor would have a plate of white.... mostly rice,corn and soybeans. Not a balanced diet.

The OP should have asked the question "Why should people care about the beekeepers?. Don't worry about the bees. As long as it is profitable, we will have commercial beekeepers to make more. When we loose the commercial beekeepers, fruits and vegetables will be come a luxury.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

So... Would that beekeeper sit to a colourful dinner plate?

Say, as long as there is money to be had in this business , the bees will be there. 
Beekeepers adapt just as the bees do
It's like natural selection, the poor non adapting habits die off (go out of business), alternative strategies take place


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> The OP should have asked the question "Why should people care about the beekeepers?"


Right, that's certainly part of the same question. Why then? 

PLB


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

A person should be able to pollinate the typical home garden to be productive enough w/o bees. Also, native pollinators would help out, but anything with scale would suffer some yield loss. Honeybees are fairly inefficient as well, but they make it up in sheer volume and ease of propagation.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

JRG13 said:


> A person should be able to pollinate the typical home garden to be productive enough w/o bees. Also, native pollinators would help out, but anything with scale would suffer some yield loss. Honeybees are fairly inefficient as well, but they make it up in sheer volume and ease of propagation.


We are thinking like typical farmers/suburbanites. The largest population centers have no ground to plant. Large apartment complexes, etc. 54% of the worlds population live in urban areas. No way they will ever be able to grow their own. Sure a few plots here, rooftop there, but overall, no way they can.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Or maybe not... "Organic agriculture has been the most intensively studied, and a 2015 publication by Lauren Ponisio from the University of California at Berkeley and colleagues analyzed 1071 organic vs. conventional yield comparisons from 115 studies. Organic farming was only slightly lower, averaging 10 – 20% less yield, although organic farms that used multi-cropping and crop rotation systems showed differences less than 10%." source http://winstonhive.com/?cat=6



Organic farming is nice, but it requires the organic input. Also, crops grown with organic fertilizer are more prone to contamination than commercial fertilizers. Because of the bacteria, etc that it naturally contains and sustains. You just have to be more careful with its use.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Hi all
I guess I was thinking about something deeper and broader than people should care about bees or the environment because of its impact on our own personal lives, well being and happiness. Something along the lines of a more integral, positive relationship where it's not mankind and nature, but rather nature (of which we are a part). Thoreau wrote


> There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance, is a very slight interference. It is like directing the sunbeams. All nations, from the remotest antiquity, have thus fingered nature. There are Hymettus and Hybla, and how many bee-renowned spots beside? There is nothing gross in the idea of these little herds, — their hum like the faintest low of kine in the meads.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

More like the Zen of Beekeeping. That's a whole different animal. Beekeeping without qualifications. 

So if you could find a way to combine western thought with eastern or Native American practices of mindfulness and vision quest with bees as a focal point in a greater pursuit. Cool.

Becoming One with the Bees.


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## Matt F (Oct 7, 2014)

This.


Maddy said:


> I think, with over 7 BILLION people on this planet, that when you compare that number with the entire population of the Ancient Americas, you will have to agree there are a LOT more mouths to feed.
> 
> So no, it is NOT a lie, but I will gladly agree that it may be a bit of an oversimplification.
> 
> ...


Sure, without the bees the human race would persist, but the bees improve our quality of life, by making better foods easier to produce inexpensively. They do so while providing a moderately profitable industry (rather than at social expense). Seems to me than anything we can do in that regard, is worth doing.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> _be honest with ourselves_, that the bees are more a "canary in the coalmine," as they are not the only insect facing extinction from Neonicotinoids, Monsanto's Roundup, and GMOs.


1) Honey bees are not facing extinction. The FAO show a constant increase in the number of managed honey bees, up to at least 80 million colonies by now. Further, I estimate the number of African bee colonies in Africa and So. America to be near 1 billion by now (I have data to back this up).

2) No organism is now facing extinction from neonics, roundup, and especially not GMOs. How would GMOs drive any organism to extinction? How would that even occur? 

3) Back to food, most of the bee pollinated food crops are specialty crops such as fruit and nuts. Many of these, such as citrus, do not require pollination. In fact unpollinated oranges are preferred by many because they have no seeds. Cucumbers, melons, pumpkins, etc are pollinated by squash bees (Peponapis). 

see http://www.fs.fed.us/wildflowers/pollinators/pollinator-of-the-month/squash_bees.shtml


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

peterloringborst said:


> 1)
> 2) No organism is now facing extinction from neonics, roundup, and especially not GMOs. How would GMOs drive any organism to extinction? How would that even occur?
> 
> 3) Back to food, most of the bee pollinated food crops are specialty crops such as fruit and nuts. Many of these, such as citrus, do not require pollination. In fact unpollinated oranges are preferred by many because they have no seeds. Cucumbers, melons, pumpkins, etc are pollinated by squash bees (Peponapis).
> ...


Cross pollination in oranges ( variety defendant) tends to increase yields and result in seedy fruit. 

Envision a GMO specifically designed to reproduce without pollination and without producing significant pollen. It would certainly reduce bee forage and if monocultured enough it would also not allow for survival of the native pollinators. Ask someone who keeps honeybees in areas of vast rice paddies how their bees do?

how well are the squash bees managed? Well enough to serve in the current agricultural system without honeybee assistance?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

peterloringborst said:


> 1) Cucumbers, melons, pumpkins, etc are pollinated by squash bees (Peponapis).
> 
> see http://www.fs.fed.us/wildflowers/pollinators/pollinator-of-the-month/squash_bees.shtml


Only if the local bumbles don't beat them to it. For a while I thought we had squash bees, but they turned out to be a color phase of Bombus perplexis. We also have Bombus plainoldordinarius and at least two other small species. The honeys do go for the squash blossoms but they have to wait in line until the bumbles are done.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> Envision a GMO specifically designed to reproduce without pollination and without producing significant pollen. It would certainly reduce bee forage and if monocultured enough it would also not allow for survival of the native pollinators. Ask someone who keeps honeybees in areas of vast rice paddies how their bees do?


Come on, these are not serious responses. All the almond trees in the world could disappear and no bees would be harmed. Bees do not depend on agriculture, agriculture depends on them! As far as rice paddies, what is your point? There are plenty of places in the world which are not suitable for bees! It has always be so.



> how well are the squash bees managed? Well enough to serve in the current agricultural system without honeybee assistance?


Squash bees are not managed at all. But in areas where squash is grown they may in fact be sufficiently abundant. But again, this discussion is not about what is required to maintain "the current agricultural system " -- whatever that is. The discussion is how to make people care about bees and beekeeping for reasons other than their appetite for food or pandering to their fears.

I don't keep bees to make a living. I make more from honey sales than I spend on the bees, so it isn't a hobby. But even if I broke even, I would still do it. I started this discussion with some ideas about why bees and beekeeping are valuable, but I already know what I think. What do you think?


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

peterloringborst said:


> 2) No organism is nowfacing extinction from neonics, roundup, and especially not GMOs. How wouldGMOs drive any organism to extinction? How would that even occur
> 
> ...Come on, these are not serious responses. All the almond trees in the worldcould disappear and no bees would be harmed. Bees do not depend on agriculture,agriculture depends on them! As far as rice paddies, what is your point? Thereare plenty of places in the world which are not suitable for bees! It hasalways be so.


You asked "How could that even occur". I was giving apossibility. Are you aware of the plight of the Monarch Butterfly? Roundup in conjunction with roundup ready fungicide has so severely reduced theforage available for the Monarch that their population has crashed to a pointof possibly listing them as endangered. I am sure those shooting andpoisoning passenger pigeons never envisioned the possibility of them going extinctbecause of it. Let’s not forget to mention DDT and its almost disastrouseffects. You are being very short sighted on assessment of thepossibilities and probabilities. 



peterloringborst said:


> I don't keep bees to make a living. I make morefrom honey sales than I spend on the bees, so it isn't a hobby. But even if Ibroke even, I would still do it. I started this discussion with some ideasabout why bees and beekeeping are valuable, but I already know what I think.What do you think?


I agree, Honeybees are not currently facing extinction. I too roll myeyes when people regurgitate the "if the honeybees die, so do we"statement. It is overstated and catastrophizing. 
There have been very few things that have held myinterest for more than a few years. Honeybees have far outstripped any other hobby I have encountered. Why? Because they are incredibly complex bugs. Not only do beekeepers have an endless supplyof intellectual stimulation, but also entertainment and profitability. Ifone gets tired of or discouraged in one area of beekeeping, there are manyother aspects to consider and delve into. Once one “masters” bees, then there are all the other environmentalaspects, contagions, etc that can be contemplated. One could spend their entire life studying asingle aspect of beekeeping and still fail to comprehend its complexities. That is the appeal to me. Then you can also escape the world for awhile as you interact with your bees, etc. A good break from other pursuits.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

peterloringborst said:


> Hi all
> I guess I was thinking about something deeper and broader than people should care about bees or the environment because of its impact on our own personal lives, well being and happiness. Something along the lines of a more integral, positive relationship where it's not mankind and nature, but rather nature (of which we are a part). Thoreau wrote


well then that's not the question, is it? 

Arnie said it above:
"More like the Zen of Beekeeping. That's a whole different animal. Beekeeping without qualifications. 
So if you could find a way to combine western thought with eastern or Native American practices of mindfulness and vision quest with bees as a focal point in a greater pursuit. Cool. 
Becoming One with the Bees."


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

I farm 1700-1800 acres of row crop "evil" gmo corn and soybeans, with some rice, sorghum, and wheat scattered into the rotation. We apply pesticides routinely by both a ground rig that I own, and with a hired crop duster when necessary. 

I won't tell you how to run the economics of your house anymore than you can tell me the economics of my business, but I can tell you that even though I hate it, the need to produce has caused fence rows to be cleared, ditches to be cleaned and mowed to the point that you can see a pole light for over 5 miles in every direction. 

And yet with little "suitable" habitat available, I *have* noticed honeybees in my rice fields, and my sorghum this year had more hover flies (native pollinators) than I thought existed in the entire world, despite the insecticides we have to spray just as our plants begin to bloom. (The pests are drawn to the smell of the nectar as well) I have neglected to spray on a few fields in years past and have seen losses approaching 75%. 

More to the point of the discussion, when I was a sidelining photographer, I'd always carry my slr camera and stop to take pics of the butterflies and other interesting stuff I'd come across in my management of my fields. It was calming, therapy-like for me. 

I think it was much of the same attitude when my wife mentioned she thought beekeeping would be interesting, I ordered our first stuff the next day. She was amazed at my excitement, apparent at our beginning class we attended. 

I am too young to be a "hippy", have never bought into the "organic" movement, too business oriented to be "wholistic". Till I started keeping bees, I'd never really cared much for honey! Not sure that I fit in to a category, and that does not bother me in the least. I love the fact that beekeeping can be what I make of it, whether that be sitting in the yard with a cooler full of frosty beverages, or making it a serious part of my agricultural business. 

There is something calming to me about nature in general. It's relationships are simple. Everything is done as eat or be eaten. Survival. Amazing that colonies (ant or bee) can work together for their communal good, albeit with no regard for other species. Neither cares about the yellow jacket wasp or the endangered species of flower, they just do their thing, their only responsibility to their colony. Makes for the simple focus which many of us admire. 

But it's a trait that we are unable to have as humans. We are taught from birth not to be "selfish" or "greedy" (terms we use for people and companies who use methods we disagree with). 

Perhaps we just look at bees simplistic focus with envy more than anything else.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Someone replied to me with:

A person should be able to pollinate the typical home garden to be productive enough w/o bees.

True, but ask Mrs. Pfau. In an agricultural setting, with out our bee yard there, her garden did very poorly. Pesticide usage has literally created another "silent spring"(yes, nothing robbed out the winter dead outs).

Ian asked what color the food on our plate would be. That would depend on pollination fees(we do not pollinate), and the supply of "funny honey". With sub-lethal effect of pesticides cutting our crop to 1/3rd of running average, our plate is pretty white.

PLB - You must have a pretty colorful plate. A large percentage of the world does not have the time to waste on the philosophy of social insects. Their immediate concern is finding the next plate of white food. 

Yes, as a 5th and 6th generation beekeepers we have great respect for the organizational skills of the social insect, but quite frankly, a plate of colorful food would be nice.

Crazy Roland


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> A large percentage of the world does not have the time to waste on the philosophy of social insects. Their immediate concern is finding the next plate of white food.


This is not about that. For those people, the world is pretty straightforward: it's about getting what you can to survive. 

I am not ashamed to be a philosopher. Just because someone else is living a life of hardship, why should I not live my own life? 

When I was young, I worked as a beekeeper's helper for $1.75 an hour, barely enough. I still bought books and thought about things.

Now that I am old, I think about the next generation. Will they buy books and think about things?

How will they learn to think for themselves? Does anyone teach that any more?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> More like the Zen of Beekeeping. That's a whole different animal. ... Becoming One with the Bees.


Yes, that's right. What I learned from Buddhism is that there is only nature, not nature and us. We have created relationships which involve mastery of nature, exploitation of nature, worship of nature, but they are all mental constructions. As humans do, we take our mental constructions and fashion physical constructions from them, which then have a reality of their own. 

But in the end, we have only refashioned nature, not really changed it. Our relationship to nature is always: we are part of it. But, we don't feel a part of it. We see it as the enemy (storms, famine), the resource (food, fuel), some sort of deity (Mother Nature, Great Spirit), etc. Nature contains all of this. What has this to do with bees?

To me, beekeeping is a pursuit where people can feel that they do belong to nature. Beekeeping doesn't gloss over the various aspects: at times bees are enemies (when they try to sting you to death), they are resource providers (honey, wax), some of us worship them (see: Ah-Muzen-Cab, the Mayan bee god). Some of us just like hanging out with them


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

jbeshearse said:


> We are thinking like typical farmers/suburbanites. The largest population centers have no ground to plant. Large apartment complexes, etc. 54% of the worlds population live in urban areas. No way they will ever be able to grow their own. Sure a few plots here, rooftop there, but overall, no way they can.


Actually....

Some of these are _fall crops _brought under cover, but in summer (Or with a little plastic) lots of food can be raised if you don't have a garden plot. Might take some community cooperation, but it could be done.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Lauri said:


> Actually....
> 
> Some of these are _fall crops _brought under cover, but in summer (Or with a little plastic) lots of food can be raised if you don't have a garden plot. Might take some community cooperation, but it could be done.


Lovely, but not a drop in the bucket of what's necessary.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Lauri said:


> Actually....
> 
> Some of these are _fall crops _brought under cover, but in summer (Or with a little plastic) lots of food can be raised if you don't have a garden plot. Might take some community cooperation, but it could be done.


It definitely is possible to raise veggies in a city. A few restaurants either raise their own (to the extent they can) or find growers _in their city_. Part of this is for freshness, part for shortening the supply chain (buy local), but the main goal is brand identity. City honeybees are handy for this sort of enterprise (although useless in a greenhouse). The strategy is seasonal unless greenhouses are used, which means switching to domesticated bumblebees or hand pollination.

A friend of mine keeps bees at a small suburban National Park near here. He is also the master chef there, preparing dinners for major events. His bees help him raise limited crops, which include fresh herbs. The bees also help the landscape gardeners keep the area lush.

But I think city gardens are hopeless for those "amber waves of grain" needed for the bread and pasta. Its the bulk wind-pollinated white food that needs the extreme acreage.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Lauri said:


> Actually....
> 
> Some of these are _fall crops _brought under cover.


The benefits of living in the mild climate of the Pacific Northwest!


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Peter,
Understanding nature as One Thing is a great first step.
Ultimately you want to get to the place where you experience 'reality' as Pure Consciousness. Undifferentiated, without qualities, without thought. But that is so esoteric. People's eyes glaze over when you talk about these things.

Have you read Richard Taylor's books? In his How-To-Do-It book of beekeeping there are a couple chapters you'd enjoy. "How to unite beekeeping and Zen" and "How to become happy" He talks about beekeeping with pure focus, being aware of the subtleties of the bees and the hive but not in an intellectual way. "You are perfectly aware of every bee in the air.....but not in the least distracted by this."

Ramana Maharshi talks about '...getting 'round the mind.' The mind blocks us from our true selves. You know that one sentence in the Bible that sums it all up: "Be still and know that I am God." 
Sometimes when working the bees there is a feeling that everything else has disappeared temporarily. The 'me and the bees' differentiation also goes away and there is just.....................what's the word I am searching for................stillness. It is hard to describe.

I don't know if that is what you are trying to get at, but it happens to me sometimes. The bees ; like Japanese archery and flower arranging, can be a springboard to the Spiritual.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

clyderoad said:


> Lovely, but not a drop in the bucket of what's necessary.


I'm talking about home grown..feeding your family. You can raise vegies on your paved driveway if necessary. 

What are you talking about?? Not sure we are on the same page.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> Have you read Richard Taylor's books? In his How-To-Do-It book of beekeeping there are a couple chapters you'd enjoy. "How to unite beekeeping and Zen" and "How to become happy"


Yes, I have read some of them (he used to live about ten miles from here), but not those chapters! Will check them out. By the way, I don't regard "happiness" as a spiritual thing if it just means self-gratification. But, you know that.



> People's eyes glaze over when you talk about these things.


Yeah, well, I glaze over when they talk about their favorite TV shows ...


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Arnie said:


> can be a springboard to the Spiritual.


http://www.beesource.com/resources/...ng/the-voice-of-god-in-the-voice-of-the-bees/


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Barry said:


> http://www.beesource.com/resources/...ng/the-voice-of-god-in-the-voice-of-the-bees/


Barry, that link does not work for me....Am I the only one?


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

Imagine a world without insect pollinators, and make tables and graphs to represent it.

plant product cost: List products for which pollinators are currently used in the production process, and their "no pollinator" costs. Include derivatives. If beef costs more due to less alfalfa, its a derivative.

plant product quality: nutritional value, the durability of a paint if linseed oil isn't used

List future diets that people might have, and calculate lifespan, and healthcare costs.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Lburou said:


> Barry, that link does not work for me....


Beesource.com -> Resources -> Elements of Beekeeping -> Beekeeping articles worth reading -> The voice of God in the voice of bees.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

To SeaCucumber 

Read original post


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Arnie said:


> Have you read Richard Taylor's books?


I did a search for Richard Taylor and Zen and this unrelated (or is it?) thing came up:



> Zen and the art of ignoring information
> 
> This article explores some of the tensions that exist between information and religion. Attention is drawn to the concern which is sometimes voiced that the saving transformation which religious teachings variously purport to offer, may be indefinitely postponed by a preoccupation with information. To counteract this possibility, religions act as information‐limiting devices by focusing the individual's attention on a level of concern consonant with the fundamental changes which they seek to bring about.
> 
> Paradoxically, though, both the nature of the questions asked at this level and the experiences that underlie the authority of the answers that religions give, make it difficult (from a logical point of view) to set limits on the amount of information that might be considered religiously relevant. Reference is made to the important role of silence in religious traditions and to a modern call for the reintroduction of silence into communication, in order to counter “information pollution.” Such demands fail to take account of the fact that it is precisely those areas of religion where silence occurs that are most productive of new information.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Peter, that's interesting. 
The difference between information and spiritual Knowledge is vast, but often missed by us the first few go-rounds with a teacher. 
Ironic.... it's only after you can quiet the mind that you get true Knowledge. 

Quieting the mind is key, but oh so difficult.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Ramakrisna talked about concentration should be so focused like a fisherman intently watching as the bobber starts to jump when a fish is nibbling the bait. You can go up to him and talk to him and he won't hear you. That's the focus you need.

Can you do that with bees? Sure, if you approach it with the right attitude.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Lauri said:


> I'm talking about home grown..feeding your family. You can raise vegies on your paved driveway if necessary.
> 
> What are you talking about?? Not sure we are on the same page.


I was responding to your comment and pics to the following statement:


jbeshearse said:


> We are thinking like typical farmers/suburbanites. The largest population centers have no ground to plant. Large apartment complexes, etc. 54% of the worlds population live in urban areas. No way they will ever be able to grow their own. Sure a few plots here, rooftop there, but overall, no way they can.


Food comes from outside of and into urban areas or people in the urban areas go hungry, sometimes very hungary. Token food plots are not the answer, I wish it was. 
There are no driveways in the most densly built and populated urban areas.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> Quieting the mind is key, but oh so difficult.


Not when you are _into_ something. When I am with the bees, that's all there is

P


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Hey Barry,
Thanks for the link. It worked for me.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

1. If properly raised, we grow up being taught to consider those around us. If we learn this lesson we find life becomes more interesting and richer as others become involved in our lives. Caring only about ourselves and taking ourselves too seriously only exasperates tendencies towards depression. 

Take lesson number one, expand it to life in general and similar rewards accrue. When it eventually becomes more than about "me", and "us" as a civilization, then some learning have finally taken place. Or should it be we become part of something bigger?

2. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. Caring about things shows at least a few brain cells are firing. Its probably also related to lesson 1.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

peterloringborst said:


> Not when you are _into_ something. When I am with the bees, that's all there is
> 
> P


Oh my. I have to thank Peter for this post. It is exactly, precisely how I feel when I'm out in the hives. I'm different for hours after. I really appreciate this sentiment.

For some reason, it made me think of this article. Not sure why and it might be completely irrelevant to this thread but I'll share it anyway because I like it so much and maybe because in my heart, I kind of think like this. 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exploring-consciousness/


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Thanks Ravenseye, have you seen this?



> Learning and Memory: Do Bees Dream?
> 
> A new study by Zwaka et al. reported in this issue of Current Biology has the potential to be equally ground breaking. In their current study, the authors report that memory reactivation during sleep is evolutionarily conserved in the honeybee.
> 
> ...


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

No, but I have now and thank you.

I think the word "care" is different for a lot of people. I'm open to insight.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Ravenseye said:


> I think the word "care" is different for a lot of people. I'm open to insight.


Right. I suppose the question was designed to collect a wide range of responses. Maybe it would be better to say, how do we communicate our abiding passion for bees to susceptible individuals? Because obviously, it's not for every taste. Some people will simply not be interested, will not "get it." 

But, the fortunes of the honey bee, like it or not, may rest in our hands. Not African bees, of course. They are doing quite well without any help from us. The European variety may need our protection if they are to continue. This may require the help of the non-beekeeping public, too.

This is true of many species and of wild nature in general. As the human race expands, we encroach further and wild nature recedes. At some point we crossed over the line where our impact is felt on every part of the world. Still, we can keep nature a constant tangible part of our lives, if we want to.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

how do we communicate our abiding passion for bees to susceptible individuals?

Now that is a more precise question: Why not start another thread with that title?

Crazy Roland


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

peterloringborst said:


> Hi all
> I am interested in gathering ideas for an article I am working on about how the public should view the honey bee according to beekeepers. I think the idea "no bees, no food, no us" aside from being flat out false, is also counterproductive. I am looking for sensible ideas that don't rely on guilt tripping, fear mongering, or misrepresentation of reality. I know -- that narrows it down a bit!
> 
> Thanks for helping
> ...


Hi Pete,

I've been pondering this for a while - thanks for asking the question!

While Dr. B and others may disagree, I think it comes down to: human's have a very large (and growing, I think) population and we need lots of food for all those people. Honey bees are the generalists of the pollination world and we've figured out how to move them around so that various crops get adequately pollinated.

Relying on Honey bees for pollination is a bit like putting all your eggs in one basket. The Ag chemicals (and other social practices) that are used are not always kind to Honey bees nor the native pollinators. I think the view of science needs to change: there are limits to what we know and what we can test for. The best scientific intentions don't rule out unintended consequences.

As a matter of course, I tend to rely on the least technical solution I can, but that doesn't mean I stick my head in the sand. As an example, Varroa is something that beekeepers need to deal with. I would love for an immediate genetic answer of a bee able to coexist with the mite and thrive in my environment, but despite some looking, I haven't found one yet. So I use MAQS. Other people look at the science and use Amitraz. I use MAQS because I understand what it derives from. That said, I find some organic pesticides obscene, but if you're facing the loss of your crop, you use what you feel you need to use. I try very hard not to blame people for reaching a different conclusion than I have, but I do vote with my feet - I don't buy the perfect looking apples in the supermarket - especially the organic ones - instead electing to grow my own, and being happy with less than perfect fruit.

I'm still fleshing out my philosophy on this - essentially human's ought care about all pollinators. Caring in my book means appreciating and creating/maintaining/not harming the environment where they live.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

A follow up, excerpts from "Zen and the Art of Ignoring Information."



> R. H. Blyth, the great authority on haiku (which is quintessentially Zen poetry), most commonly uses Zen to mean "that state of mind in which we are not separated from other things" and only very rarely to refer to a specific sect of Buddhism. He claims that the spirit of Zen can be found not only in Basho (the seventeenth century haiku master), Christ, and Eckhart, but also in Shakespeare, Wordsworth, and the music of Bach.
> 
> A man is wandering through thecountryside far from home.
> Suddenly he encounters a wild elephant which, seeing him,
> ...


CHRIS ARTHUR (1993) Zen and the Art of Ignoring Information
Department of Theology & Religious Studies
St. David's University College, University of Wales
Lampeter, Dyfed, Wales, SA48 7ED


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> Again again again again again
> 
> As soon as I close my eyes
> it happens once more
> ...


To understand somewhat better the symbolism of this poem, the reader must remember at least three facts: (a) apiculture is one of the peaceful pursuits of the Estonians, a basically agricultural people, (b) the visionary Estonian poet Juhan Liiv spoke at the end of the last century about Estonia as a beehive which all Estonians want to reach even through death, war, and exile, (c) Rummo himself says in a programmatic poem:

I stand like a beehive,
and whether I want or not,
I have to gather, to gather into myself
the blaze and wax of flowers


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Hmm..I was actually thinking the LSD in the smoker _might not_ be a good thing.

Sorry Peter..but... DUDE.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"Give thanks for the corn and the wheat that are reaped, for labor well done and for barns that are heaped, for the sun and the dew and the sweet honeycomb, for the rose and the song and the harvest brought home." Anonymous c. 1904


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Lauri said:


> Hmm..I was actually thinking the LSD in the smoker _might not_ be a good thing.
> 
> Sorry Peter..but... DUDE.


Spot on Lauri. Over the top.
I don't mind reading the final product but to read the thought process 
as it evolves is painful.

The response will be that 'some of us don't get it'. 
Au contraire.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> "Give thanks for the corn and the wheat that are reaped, for labor well done and for barns that are heaped, for the sun and the dew and the sweet honeycomb, for the rose and the song and the harvest brought home." Anonymous c. 1904


Love this Mark. Many thanks!


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

clyderoad said:


> Spot on Lauri. Over the top.
> I don't mind reading the final product but to read the thought process
> as it evolves is painful.
> 
> ...


I am sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying. Would you care to elaborate?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

peterloringborst said:


> I am sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying. Would you care to elaborate?


That's very humorous.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

clyderoad said:


> That's very humorous.


I guess I don't get it.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, here is another point of view as to why the public should care about bees:



> While the economic value of crop pollination and other ecosystem services is undisputed, the importance of the wider diversity of pollinators that provide resilience to ecosystems via indirect services cannot be quantified in solely economic terms. Humans have also placed cultural importance on biodiversity for thousands of years and current research indicates that biodiversity and human health are intricately linked via cultural pathways. Therefore, non-economic and moral arguments can be strongly made for the conservation of wider diversity needs to be protected and conserved. That this can be an effective approach is illustrated by the growing sales of seed mixtures for bees and civilian initiatives to plant wildflowers in towns and cities in northwestern Europe (anecdotal evidence) as well as increased media and public awareness on the plight of pollinators. The general public buying or supporting these pollinator enhancement instruments do so because of cultural values and moral arguments that nature has intrinsic value and needs to be protected and conserved.


Senapathi, Deepa, et al. "Pollinator conservation-The difference between managing for pollination services and preserving pollinator diversity." Current Opinion in Insect Science (2015).


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

The Estonian poem was meant to reflect many things. The main one is loss. People all over the world are feeling great loss at this time, & that is reflected in our own experience of loss. The loss of hives is only a symbol in the poem, although Estonians and all of us have lost many hives. It is meant to show how we confront loss and continue "whether I want or not."



> Before the Second World War there were 110,000 honey bee colonies in Estonia, but after the war only 17,000 remained. Estonia suffered grievously during the war as Germany and Russia fought for domination over the strategically important Baltic States. More than 77,000 Estonians died as a result of enemy action and a similar number sought refuge abroad. Following Soviet occupation, from 1947-1951, land and all agricultural enterprises were forceably collectivized, and about 31,000 largely rural Estonians were deported to Siberia to break the strong resistance to collectivization. Inevitably these purges had devastating effects on rural life and apiculture. Estonians had to start all over again with their beekeeping. The Republic of Estonia, the northernmost of the three Baltic States, regained its independence in 1991 after c. 50 years of postwar Soviet occupation.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I don't quite know what to make of this, but I have often noticed something curious when I have been working intently with my bees for hours. As I walk back from my apiary to my house (@500 feet) I often pass small mammals, reptiles and birds which seem almost completely unafraid of me, when they normally would scamper, slither or fly away from me as I approach. 

Perhaps it's something olfactory and the scent of the bees has overwhelmed my own. Perhaps it's my bee jacket and round veil hanging down my back that disguises my human shape. Perhaps it's the deep concentration and relaxation that I feel while working with bees. But something is different about these encounters. The pity is that I am often too exhausted to stand and marvel at it.

I am a horticulturist by training and I live and work on an upstate NY farm; I am the daughter of a field ornithologist and have never lacked for constant personal interaction with Nature. I wander about looking at stuff in my fields and woodlots on a daily basis. I eat breakfast with my bees; I eat my lunch walking the margins of my beaver-tended wetlands and fall asleep beside open windows listening to the sounds of the dark every night of the year. I am now an ancient old crone and I've spent my entire life in closer proximity to the natural world, than the human one.

And yet working with the bees, which are relatively new to me, is somehow different. It's as if tending them gives me some secret way to not just watch the creatures of the wild but to have a glimpse of actually _being_ one of the creatures in the wild. 

I often tell people that keeping bees is like having an adult-scaled Ant Farm that you can actually play in, not merely observe through the glass sides. I am making a joke about it, but like a time-traveler might slip between the ages, I somehow seem to slip close to the boundaries of my species when I am with my bugs.

Enjambres


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

enjambres said:


> And yet working with the bees, which are relatively new to me, is somehow different.
> 
> Enjambres


It certainly is. That is a fascinating observation , Enjambres.

There is something about the bees. I'm convinced there is more to them than we perceive on the surface. 

They seem to have the ability to take someone who is receptive to the threshold of the metaphysical.

Or as Cheng Man-ch'ing said:
".....when one understands the 'interpreting energy' -- one is gradually arriving in the parlor of the supernatural."

Perhaps we cannot understand it intellectually, but we can experience what they have to show us with another type of perception.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

My work with bees helps me often achieve moments of _mindfullness_ , like everything else does not exist, beyond that moment. Here and now.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

peterloringborst said:


> That is what I was thinking. As a beekeeper, a naturalist, even as an artist, I find them attractive and infinitely fascinating. I think the idea that we need bees, or that we need to protect the environment _for us_ -- is a dead end. The earth doesn't _need us_, we need it.


I think that is incomplete. In rough terms: we can (and are) destroying large numbers of species. Those species at risk, and the species that depend on them, do need us (to stop destroying them). 

However, as a society, we don't seem too bothered about that. We'd rather have an endless supply of cheap-as-possible goods, gizmos and geegaws, entertainments and so on, than pay any costs of accounting for their production in environmental terms. 

There's nothing wrong with guilt - as long as its deserved: and if we believe biodiversity should be preserved for any reason, those who act destructively ought to be made to feel guilty, if that's a pragmatic way of getting them to alter their behaviour. 

So why should biodiversity be preserved - by which I mean nature be free to play out its evolutionary game - free of our destructive hands? What arguments can be made for that? (And should moral arguments be rejected, or just some sorts of moral arguments?) 

I think you have to find the possible foundations for arguments - anthropocentric and/or intrinsic value-in/for-itself - before you can start to build ideas about why.

I also think that in the case of the US only the former is possible - honeybees are not indigenous, and their presence may be counted as interference in nature. 

Just some thoughts,

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Roland said:


> how do we communicate our abiding passion for bees to susceptible individuals?
> 
> Now that is a more precise question: Why not start another thread with that title?
> 
> Crazy Roland


One way is by encouraging small children to become interested in nature. Not all will bite, but an effort to enchant small children with the beauty present in the natural world, the elegance of the mechanisms that give rise to it, and the joys of immersing oneself in that realm will make a real difference. 

As would building away from high-intensity food-supply models. Cities can be green, and massively food-productive, and supportive of a dense natural presence. They just have to be built, and/or altered, to those ends. And smaller market towns and rural dwellings can allow children - and everyone else - to experience a closeness with nature on a daily - hourly - basis.

Small scale low-energy food production (permaculture at its best) would obviate the need for much industrial agriculture (making room for the return of nature) and would resolve the labour-oversupply problem at a stroke. A change of diet away from highly wasteful massive protein-based diets would make good any shortfall. 

All this would also help more people to escape the dull and immoral precepts of 21st C popular culture, of no-win race-to-the-bottom capitalism, of the theft and control of culture by those empowered, selfish and/or stupid and immoral enough to do it. Our basic problem is the cultural elevation of a narrow view of 'success' to that represented by asset-possession. Public service, kindness, a desire to do good - these things are not valued.

How can bees help with all that? Start with an observation hive in every school, and a movement aiming to use those hives to teach children that fascination with complexity and beauty, and questions about the nature of the morality of destructiveness.. this would be intrinsically beneficial to them and to everyone else. Add to that a ban on the teaching of religion - or rather make comparative religious studies a subset of a new compulsory subject - Philosophy. 

Its a long road, but the time is probably ripe for a rethink about man's relationship with the natural realm.

(BTW Peter, in order to say that I have to use the term 'nature' in a way that excludes mankind. And that's what the term originally meant - it also excluded acts of gods - and its how philosophers have been using it ever since. If you say 'Nature' is what happens when man isn't part of the causal nexus you can have effective conversations. Its not a question of right or wrong, just of what you want to achieve, and how well that position operates in your conceptual framework)

Interesting question, thank you,

Mike (UK)


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I like Mike's answer here regarding kids. I teach hunter education with a dedicated and experienced team of instructors. Historically, the classes I run have been men and mostly adults. But in the past 10 years we see more and more kids. In the last class I led it was about 20% which were under the age of 17 with the youngest being 10. That's a big percentage. In every class I try to see what makes those kids different. There are obvious ones. Some are girls and some are boys. Some have been hunting and some just want to start. 

But the only real difference I take note of is that each of these kids has passionate parents. Mothers and fathers who are eager to have them learn....even if they themselves don't hunt. And surprisingly, the passion isn't about the guns or the shooting or the taking of game. It's about the outdoors and learning and all the gifts you get when you take the time to get out of the house and into nature. These kids are, in a way, inspired to participate in an activity that gets them face to face with the real world and that activity just happens to be hunting. 

I don't think you can force anybody but I do believe that if you take a lead in giving them a chance to learn and understand...well then I guess you're doing a good job as a parent or mentor.

Good post. I like it.


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