# when and how to kill off the hive



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Okay posted here in commercial to avoid upsetting some...

Recently Honey housholder mentioned he does away with his hives each year and takes all the honey....

This year the honey flow is so bad, my hives on scales are LOSING weight..... 

that said. I am wondering how you clean out the hive, and when you decide its time??
my first thought was to off the queen and allow all the brood to hatch and the bees die off, but that seems to me to open the window to SHB and wax moths???

Dumping them seems to leave brood in the frames so???

I belive I will have to destroy at least half my hives to allow me to save any at all.....

And no feeding this long would not make sense from a monetary viewpoint.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: when and how to kill of the hive*

Feeding bees in a bad dearth or feeding cows in a drought/flood amounts to the same thing. 
When it comes to cows and a flood/drought i have experience. We had flodding last year and it took it's tole. In 2003 we had a drought, and vowed to not make the same mistakes we made in 2003. Thus our choice for last year. We had to decide to sell the herd or parts of it or buy hay. In the end we sold the cows for slaughter, took a serious beating.
I think honey bees, if you are in it to pay the bills, must be valued in the same way. Cost out the cost to feed your bees and the cost to purchase new ones next year, and the damage done by bugs when the hives sit empty for a year.
the pencil, paper, easure and calculator are an ag producers best management tools.

That said, I think I would let them hatch out in the hives and eat what is there. This would lessen the damage done by the wax moths since the bees will clean out the comb. Next, as the hives get smaller, down size from a double to a single, switch out comb, empty for frames of feed that are still in the yard. 
As to the queen, in a dearth, she shuts down. The bees might decide to supercede her, let that happen, just knock down all but one cell. I picked this route because if the weather changes, there might be flowers later in the season, and you might kick yourself in the butt for destroying all. Wintering a single box might be to your benifit, if you get a fall flow. 
When we sold half the herd we did it in stages. First to save on pasture we sold any animals that were crazy or did not have a calf. Then we sold the old cows that would be iffy to make it through a hard winter. Then later on, after pulling the bull 2 months, we got the vet into to preg check the rest (november after the final hay numbers were in). Any open, any the vet thought were not genetically sound, we sold.
I guess what i am trying to say is we did it in stages. This lessened the blow, allowed us to make a clear choice based on the hay we made. Depending on the # of hives you have, you might think it better to keep half or a third so you have some stock to build from in the spring.

If you do plan to keep some, get pollen patties. With the plants under stress, the pollen will not have the protien and will be near the value of straw. The bees will eat it, and gain no energy from it...got that T-shirt. PM or post if you want more info on what we did to get through the flooding here.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: when and how to kill of the hive*

I don't get rid of my bees until the first of Oct, here in NW Ohio. I have some yards I was still feeding two weeks ago. Just check one of them today and they had a super or two alreadly full. That is just how beekeeping is. One day nothing and the next everything is full. Somethings you have to wonder how they get it so fast. Beekeeping is farming, you plant the seed and leave the rest up to the BIG guy.
Best of luck,
Ron


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: when and how to kill of the hive*

If farming was only that simple...


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

*Re: when and how to kill of the hive*

If you're planning on keeping 1/2 the hives anyway, why not combine the weak with the strong. You might get more honey this year.


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

*Re: when and how to kill of the hive*

how many hives? you could probably find someone to trade empty equipment for the hives you have. i have empty equiupment that i would love to fill with bees.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

*Re: when and how to kill of the hive*

At the moment there are around 50 hives, about 25 have great numbers but no stores and queens shut down. the smaller ones are okay with a frame or two of stores, and small numbers of bees...(this years splits)

I am looking at it from farming perspective.. the cost benifit of feeding till next spring is not there. If I crash roughly half of them the small amount of stores will let me feed teh other half thru the winter. Even pondering splitting them into 3 frame nucs ( a deep devided into 3)

Its not hopeless this year yet, We are going to stagger planting of beans to prolong the flow there, just trying to get my plan togther before its time....

Honey housholder, you commented on when, but how???


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## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

*Re: when and how to kill of the hive*



gmcharlie said:


> Its not hopeless this year yet, We are going to stagger planting of beans to prolong the flow there, just trying to get my plan togther before its time....


Hang in there - hopefully there will be a great late summer/fall flow for your operation.

It is rather amazing to see disparity of flows within regions, and even within small areas. I was talking to my immediate neighbor last evening, and when asked about his colonies, he said that they were built up, but not packing in the honey. 

I just got in from dropping on the third supers on most of mine (from packages, too!), and in doing so, it could have been earlier - many have capped the second. But, I recall he has Carnies, and I have Italians. I know that doesn't help your situation, but if the numbers are up, you just need some good weather for them to pack up the supers...

MM


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

*Re: when and how to kill of the hive*

I cant tell you how to run your operation. However back a few years ago I lived in KC Mo and run bees. That year we had a bad drought. Hardly any rain, and all the queens shut down by first week of July. I didnt know how to handle it either, but it wiped my 30 colony opertion to 3. I would shake them out in a field and place the brood over a few remaining live colonies to let the brood hatch out. Then stack up your stuff and start over.. However it sure is expensive these days buying bees...

Maybe selling off to someone that wants to run them is best so you dont waste money....


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

*Re: when and how to kill of the hive*

a few carniolian, some itialians, and some hybryids..... (from glenns) the carnii/s bult up fast this spring, but with no pollen or nectar they shut down quick.... the itialians although I have good bee numbers, have no food surpluses..... 

new hives I started this year are doing the best at food/bee ratios.... 

I am going to put 2lbs of dry sugar in each tonight..... that should stop any decline, in hope of a better bloom...

What is interesting is 20 hives are literaly In the woods at a farm I own, they are doing the worst... the ones at the house were doing okay on wild weeds until crop burndawn kicked in 2 weeks ago..


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: when and how to kill of the hive*

A light syrup and some protein could take some of the stress off. A light syrup would also be relatively cheap.

I understand the economics that some use to exterminate their bees, but I could never do it and we are in a different situation where the same thinking does not apply being a bee suppler and a pollinator. Fat bees on Feb 1 are very valuable. Can you move them to greener pastures? No honey crop will also allow you to jump on your mite situation early.


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## Brenda (Nov 23, 2006)

*Re: when and how to kill of the hive*

You aren't that far from the St. Clair Beekeepers Club. If you let them know, some of them might be interested in buying some bees. 

http://www.stclairbees.com/


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## Josh Carmack (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: when and how to kill of the hive*

If you have 50 hive wouldn't it be more economical to simply move the bees to a different region? If you spent 500 moving them, that would be much less cost than replacing them. 

I would find a bee keeper or farmer that would allow you to move them.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

*Re: when and how to kill of the hive*

We were feeding here up to three weeks ago. Once the rain stopped and the sun came out we are having trouble staying ahead of the bees placing supers but that is agriculture. 

I don't understand why you wouldn't feed patties. They cost next to nothing if you make them yourself. Sugar runs about .45 cents a lb at the store. For the price of one package of bees you could buy 250 lbs of sugar. That would feed your 50 colonies for about four or five weeks, enough to get them through the this spell.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

*Re: when and how to kill of the hive*

I am feeding a bit, for a short time to see if they snap out of it, but you have to be realistic. at some point the cost to feed thru the winter far exceeds the value to replace them.... I can raise queens from strong hives. I can use the feed the weak ones have to keep teh strong alive. even packages at 60.00 with honey a 4.00 a lb thats only 15lbs of honey and its a wash.
30 lbs if your a pesimist...

Patties would be fine, but feeding summer patties is a problem, SHB and roaches and ants to name a few. not to mention that they almost never touch the stuff.... they seem to prefer foraging for fresh. there is some fresh out there, enough to barely keep them going.... as I mentioned some of the hives are losing weight (not from pest)... a cpl are gaining very slowly..

Again, I didn't want this to turn into a save the bees discussion, but a discussion on the best time to make the desision and how to carry it out. 

There are several out there who do this on an annual basis. value of the honey left in the hive vs value of the ebees....
Last year I had a hive of itilians go into winter very strong with 200lbs of honey...... They ATE it all and almost starved... I am not going to do that again.... wasted 500.00 worth og honey on 50.00 worth of bees...
so that said, what methods???


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

My advice is to get rid of your bees. You are just looking for excuses of why beekeeping is not for you. Being pessimistic and fatalistic doesn't promote good management decisions.

Worried about small hive beetles with summertime feeding? How about moving to somewhere without established populations of small hive beetles - like Illinois? 

No SHB in IL - http://pest.ceris.purdue.edu/searchmap.php?selectName=INBJQEA

I hate to state the obvious, but dead bees don't make any honey, and overwintered hives are worth more than a $60 package of bees. Look at the replacement cost of an overwintered hive, rather than the replacement cost of a $60 package.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Possibly, but here in central Il, pollination is no pratical value.

Weeding out weaker hives and saving stronger ones is not fatalistic... its called reality... and selling a summer fall hive is not realisatic... nobody in this part of the country would pay the value of the honey let alone the hive and the hiney in the fall




Your wrong, I live in central Il, and we have SHB... I could send you some if you like.

I am a farmer/ and an engineer. I plan ahead.... feel sorry for the bees if you like, but they are actually all going to die anyway... I am trying to make whats refered to as managment decesions...

I would suggest you relax a minute and start doing some math.

PETA is for people eating tasty animials.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

From an ag producer who has that T shirt do what the pencil and paper tell you to do. That is the best advice especially if this is you livleyhood.

No disrespect to beekeepers but they are a different breed than any livestock producer.
If you let the weak die, and save the strong ones you will be in a better position. 10-15 strong hives fed pollen and sugar could net you 30 to 45 hives next year with good genetics and vigor. Will write more later but off to the bright lights and hubby is ready


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

let me re-itereate, I posted this in teh commercail beeks forum in the hopes of getting some input as to the methodology. unfortunatly it quickly degrades into a bash the beekeeper line.

If anybody out there has some real experince in this area of how to drawn down the hive and get rid of all larve without starting laying workers, I would appreciate a PM..

Charlie


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

Kill the queen, 10 days later break any queen cells, let the brood hatch, shake the bees out and remove equipment. If I read correctly you're only depopulating 25 hives or is it 2500?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

gmcharlie,
I'm sorry you haven't gotten the response you were looking for. There is someone on beesource who shakes his bees into fall packages I believe. 

Sheri!! Where are you? Sheri knows about this sort of thing, I believe. Sheri of John and Sheri. They are probably busy working their bees.

I don't know how practical it would be, but after taking all of the frames of honey away from your hives, perhaps you could put all of your hives into a closed container and gas it w/ exhaust from a car or truck. I don't know how that would effect the equipment, but it would kill the bees.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

123456 said:


> Kill the queen, 10 days later break any queen cells, let the brood hatch, shake the bees out and remove equipment. If I read correctly you're only depopulating 25 hives or is it 2500?


SHB can be problematic with this approach if the hive weakens much after the queen is killed, particularly in late summer. What is left of the bees will abandon the unhatched brood and abscond if the SHB population gets to high. If you don't catch it very quickly, the comb will be destroyed by the SHB larvae. Even if you do catch it before the SHB take over, you still have the issue of all that dead brood festering in the comb and you will have to freeze it to kill the SHB eggs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

gmcharlie said:


> This year the honey flow is so bad, my hives on scales are LOSING weight.....
> 
> And no feeding this long would not make sense from a monetary viewpoint.


I think you should be patient. It is still early in the season, isn't it? Summer just started and there is the fall flow to look forward to.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

i wouldn't waste the energy doing what it sounds like nature might do for you any way.
i believe nature and the bees know better than me. let them take care it.
just take from the poor and give to the rich and let nature take her course.
spending time peta bashing is as distasteful as peta.


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## 11x (May 14, 2009)

i would like to buy a 6 pound package from you. if you are just gona kill them than you shouldent charge me to much and still make a profit. i may take 2, 6 pounders. one with a queen for a new hive and one to do a combine as i am trying to build alot of drawn comb this year. please pm me a price. i will send you the cages if you like.


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## NewBee2007 (May 6, 2007)

Yes, would you consider shaking them into packages and if so what size and how much? I wish I lived closer as I could use some bees for hive boosters... especially if the rain ends and we get a nice late Summer or Fall flow. I definitely think you have options to offing them that you might want to consider (imho). But they are your bees and you can do what you feel you need to do, but I think you might be looking for other options if you are posting... and if your not you surely got some .


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

gmcharlie said:


> let me re-itereate, I posted this in teh commercail beeks forum in the hopes of getting some input as to the methodology. unfortunatly it quickly degrades into a bash the beekeeper line.
> 
> If anybody out there has some real experince in this area of how to drawn down the hive and get rid of all larve without starting laying workers, I would appreciate a PM..
> 
> Charlie


In my first post I gave you an option or two to kill off your hives


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: when and how to kill of the hive*

Does this help?



honeyshack said:


> Feeding bees in a bad dearth or feeding cows in a drought/flood amounts to the same thing.
> When it comes to cows and a flood/drought i have experience. We had flodding last year and it took it's tole. In 2003 we had a drought, and vowed to not make the same mistakes we made in 2003. Thus our choice for last year. We had to decide to sell the herd or parts of it or buy hay. In the end we sold the cows for slaughter, took a serious beating.
> I think honey bees, if you are in it to pay the bills, must be valued in the same way. Cost out the cost to feed your bees and the cost to purchase new ones next year, and the damage done by bugs when the hives sit empty for a year.
> the pencil, paper, easure and calculator are an ag producers best management tools.
> ...


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Ahh some better replies..... and some peta fans...



AS some have mentioned this is farming and manageing... my thought is simple, not leave a ton of bees on little honey to starve out or have to feed all winter...

I will probably move most of the queens into 3 frame nucs for winter, hopefully that will leave me a few hundred frames of old brood/honeystores to either extract, or save for spring buildup. 

I have NOT given up on them yet, and am activily feeding for a bit yet for those who can't seem to read......


What I was looking for was the method of reduction which would allow the queen to stop laying and the brood to hatch, and hopefully many of the remaining workers to backfill with hone before they die off anyway...

I assumed that some here were eliminating the queen or confineing her sometime before the fal flow to maximize honey buildup. Bees that are not tending brood build up much better and faster honey stores.

I had assumed that there was some methods out there, I have removed queens before for honey production, but your limited on how long you can do it before they it creates issues...... even confineing the queen can prompt laying workers in a large hive....

I do have a 2 frame queen box that works fairly well... put her in and combine two strong hives into a great honey builder.... I think the term used most is a "powerhouse"....

My goal was to find the best way to allow for no new brood, and let the bees clean out and backfill to the greatest effect, and how the timing of that may be monitored..



AS for packages, if you need bees that bad, there are several suppliers that sell packages all year long. I don't sell packages as our state inspector never shows up....


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## Brenda (Nov 23, 2006)

I'm just curious if you're talking about Fugate or the old inspector? From what I understand the other one got sick and had to give up the job.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Actually Brenda, I have never met the new guy....... I live about 180 miles from him, and since I am on the FAR edge of his teritory (IL is really housed) I completly understand.... I am sure some day He/She will pop in...


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## Brenda (Nov 23, 2006)

Yeah, I emailed my inspector to set up an appointment, but she hasn't replied yet, so I understand. They cover a large area.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

sqkcrk said:


> gmcharlie,
> Sheri!! Where are you? Sheri knows about this sort of thing, I believe. Sheri of John and Sheri. They are probably busy working their bees.


Actually Mark, we just got back from a week in Canada fishing, (!!!) felt good to take a summer vacation for the first time in years..... the bees didn't miss us a bit.

Yes, killing off half (or sometimes even all) of the bees in fall and buying package bees to replace them used to be very common up here in the north, when packages were cheap. Some folks still do it, but it is less common.
The method most used years back was to shake a spoon of cyanagas into the entrance, the bees dropped instantly. Then shake them out in the bee yard and haul the boxes home to skritch up and get them ready for package installation. This was done after all the supers were off and once wax moths were no longer a potential problem. Up here the queens were already shut down so no brood to worry about. In this way you would be requeening every year or every other year as well.
Now I think cyanagas would be fairly difficult to come by (for a while you could not buy it in the U.S. but could in Canada. Not sure if you still can but I wouldn't want to declare it at the border ), so the bees are shook out on a cold day when they would freeze quickly, and again, after the supers were pulled, then all honey except maybe some for starting packages is extracted from the brood combs too.
In the south I don't know how you would go about killing them off. Starvation is inhumane in my opinion. Perhaps dry ice or as someone suggested, carbon monoxide?
People that shake the bees out to die are becoming increasingly rare as there is a market for those bees. Why throw something away when you can be paid for them? If you are indeed looking for the realistic economics this is the question I would be asking.
Perhaps a better tactic would be to consolidate all the brood into the colonies you will keep and let some commercial operator heading to California shake your bees into his boxes. 

The Florida summer dearth drives many beeks to summer pastures, this is something I would also consider. Not only might you make more honey but you wouldn't have to start with packages every year. 
Sheri


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Thanks Sheri, you answered a critiacal question as to how the brood was handled........I had been pondering a sooner reduction, before any of the stores went negative. My thought was to confine the queen to a very small area....

My current thought is to not necassarly kill the hive but probably reduce it to 2-3 frames, Nucs if you will and allow a mojor die off of older bees. 

Even pondering doing the splits earlier and useing the surplus bees for a super hive and the last bit of flow.....

I made a serious math error last year and feed a group of itialans over 200lbs of honey, for no reason. the hive now is no stronger or weaker than the new ones I started this spring.... I had assumed they would have a huge die off and not eat so musc missed that one ..


So far this year the nectar flow has been so bad there is no chance of any of the hives makeing it without 100% feed, so I am trying to plan ahead and cut down the sizes and conserve the reserves....

I also enjoyed a cpl of thoughts as to why feed 100 lbs of honey worth 3-400 to a buch of bees that are only worth 100.00....... it makes sense... when your going to off the queen and replace her in the spring, the gain may not be worth the loss.....

That said, thanks again for the input, No cyangas in my future, but I definatly appreciate teh information.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Why are you feeding honey to the bees and not sugar? :doh: I can sell 200 lbs of honey for 1000 bucks wholesale!! I can buy 200 lbs of sugar for $95.20. Yeah, I would call that a serious math error.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

ah it was late, and I was figuring it would be there in the spring..... didn't want to fire up the extractor...


If your getting 5.00 a lb for wholesale honey either your math is off of your doing better than the rest of the world.....


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## ga.beeman (Mar 29, 2009)

if you want to get rid of 25 hives send me a private message thanks david


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## ErnieW50 (May 2, 2009)

Anyone who is going to let their hive die off this fall contact me.
I will gladly pick up the bees if there are sufficient quantities to make the drive for.
I think ten hives would be the minimum.
If you have 25 or more I am very interested.
I am in SE Missouri 
Ernie Wells
[email protected]
573-429-0222


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

gmcharlie said:


> ah it was late, and I was figuring it would be there in the spring..... didn't want to fire up the extractor...
> 
> 
> If your getting 5.00 a lb for wholesale honey either your math is off of your doing better than the rest of the world.....


Nope the math is right on...if I posted what I was getting retail I am afraid everyone would move to my area.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So, how many hives do you have and how many pounds of honey do you sell each year?


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

alpha6 said:


> Nope the math is right on...if I posted what I was getting retail I am afraid everyone would move to my area.


Hmmmm then your wholesaler is a fool..... he can drive anywhere in the midwest and beat that price by at least half..... some real specialty honeys may be that high, but when [email protected] of retail honey is in the 3-4lb price range you can't pay much more than that and be around more than a year....


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_some real specialty honeys may be that high,_

You think there is a chance he sells a specialty honey? 

Around here, an 8 oz Ross Round wholesales for $3.50. A 12 oz cut comb sells for $5.00 wholesale. A plain 16 ounce bottle wholesales for $3.50 too. And we aren't even into the specialty honeys yet. You can get premiums if you don't use chemicals in your hive, or have them on certified organic farms.

You may not be able to wholesale semi loads for $5 a pound, but a good marketer could move 1000 pounds at $5 a pound.

_Hmmmm then your wholesaler is a fool_

And depending on the retail price that wholesaler gets - that wholesaler may be a genius.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

gmcharlie said:


> Hmmmm then your wholesaler is a fool..... he can drive anywhere in the midwest and beat that price by at least half..... some real specialty honeys may be that high, but when [email protected] of retail honey is in the 3-4lb price range you can't pay much more than that and be around more than a year....


That's because most of the retail honey you buy is mixed with imported crap and I wouldn't pay you 10 cents for it.

Around here and not just locally but through most of Colorado now sustainability and buying local is a big deal. I am getting more and more requests for my honey in bulk and there is no negotiation on the price. I know I can't be the only one that is tapping this market. Maybe if others weren't in such a hurry to dump their product at rock bottom prices it wouldn't be so hard to believe.


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

Why don't you do a combine of your weak hives with your strong? Then come spring, just split and buy a queen?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

alpha6 said:


> Why are you feeding honey to the bees and not sugar? :doh: I can sell 200 lbs of honey for 1000 bucks wholesale!! I can buy 200 lbs of sugar for $95.20. Yeah, I would call that a serious math error.


If I sold my honey at your farmers market I could probably get the same price as you. I bet you are not talking about 55 gallon drums full, especially not by the truck load.


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