# who has been affected?



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nice try bluegrass.

I've had losses, but I don't know for sure whether they are from CCD or not. I would think mostly not. But I don't know for sure.


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## Korny's Korner (Mar 25, 2007)

I have had some unknown loses over the years I thought it was poor management or bad queens. Maybe this CCD has been around longer then we know.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

My hypothisis is that the people being affected are the commercial pollinators and not so much the small guys and side liners. I believe CCD is something that they are doing or exposing their bees to that the normal guy is not. I would also venture to say that the small # of hobbiest who have suffered from CCD bought their packages from outfits who are Migrators. The bottom line is that if this thing does wipe out the Honey Bee in the US. that the pollination will be taken up by the bumble and mason bee breeders. Growers are just now learning that these native bees are better at pollination anyway. The only reason there is an outcry is because the migrators are loosing their shirts. It has nothing to do with the possible devistation of food production in the US. That will never be a reality due to loss of honey bee pollination.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Growers have known for a long time that bumble bees are better pollinators than honey bees. My dad told me that 40+ years ago. They start earlier in the day, work longer, work in more rain, etc.

The problem is getting enough for mono-crops. In areas with acres of orchards, after the bloom, there isn't enough forage to keep enough native pollinators alive.

It is harder to grow fruit when you don't have lots of other orchards around for shipping, picking, packing reasons. Our family has 50 acres of cherries. Without honey bees we would pull out the trees. It is hard enough to make a profit without a lack of honey bees.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

We do a fair amount of commercial pollination and our bees look as good or better than they have in years.
I don't see bumble bees and mason bees taking over anytime in the near future. They are great pollinators but are not manageable on a large scale. Most of the crops grown and eaten in the U.S. are grown and pollinated on a large scale. This may not be the best way but it is how we are feeding our country right now.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>My hypothisis is that the people being affected are the commercial pollinators and not so much the small guys and side liners. I believe CCD is something that they are doing or exposing their bees to that the normal guy is not. I would also venture to say that the small # of hobbiest who have suffered from CCD bought their packages from outfits who are Migrators


bluegrass,

this would be very easy to measure. Are you able to associate the losses strictly to the use of commercial operations? There are alot of normal guys out there, that are running their hives in the same fashion as these giant commercial operators.

Your making a pretty bold statement, blaming commercial enterprise, with a broad and nonspecific statement,


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

No crime in making bold statements.... Time will tell if I am right or wrong. It will not take long for some researcher somewhere to make that connection if there is one to be made.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>if there is one to be made.


Too bad to base conclusions merely on speculation


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beedeetee said:


> Growers have known for a long time that bumble bees are better pollinators than honey bees. My dad told me that 40+ years ago. They start earlier in the day, work longer, work in more rain, etc.
> 
> The problem is getting enough for mono-crops. In areas with acres of orchards, after the bloom, there isn't enough forage to keep enough native pollinators alive.
> 
> It is harder to grow fruit when you don't have lots of other orchards around for shipping, picking, packing reasons. Our family has 50 acres of cherries. Without honey bees we would pull out the trees. It is hard enough to make a profit without a lack of honey bees.


Better they may be for certain crops. Controlling them (bumblebees) and acquiring the numbers needed for large acreage is a problem that the use of honeybees is the answer to.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

sqkcrk said:


> Better they may be for certain crops. Controlling them (bumblebees) and acquiring the numbers needed for large acreage is a problem that the use of honeybees is the answer to.


That was really my point. Bee for Bee the bumble is probably a better pollinizer. However, having enough wild bees for pollinization or renting them would not be feasible. By the time we need bees the wild bees have not built up enough.

With many acres of orchards with few other plants in an area, the wild bees can't build up enough numbers to pollinate without help from rented hives (honey bees).


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

The native bees are not leased out, they are bought by the grower. True the bumble bee is not built up enough to have much impact in a large orchard, but the mason (orchard) bees can be bought in any quantity the grower needs. They come in a tube that you keep refrigerated and you put them out when pollination is needed and they hatch from the tube when the sun warms it up. A half dozen or so tubes is all that is needed per tree with each tube holding about 20 bees.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

At 6 tubes per tree we would only need 21,000 tubes for our 50 acres. That would get us 6 pollinizers per tree. Right now if the hive has 30,000 honey bees we have 425 per tree.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Bluegrass you should call around and try to order enough mason bees to pollinate a 1,000 acre apple orchard next week. I doubt if you will find that many readily available.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Managing the mason bee for pollination as the honey bee, and leaf cutter, there will also be associated diseases to contend with. 
Cant overlook that, can we?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Nick Noyes said:


> Bluegrass you should call around and try to order enough mason bees to pollinate a 1,000 acre apple orchard next week. I doubt if you will find that many readily available.


Actually they are readily available, just search Knox Cellers, and they are available without booking a year ahead of time. You can have them shipped UPS (cheaper trucking than honey bees) by the thousands. You don't need as many as honey bees because they are more efficient pollinators. There has been a bunch of research done on them and a search will bring up plenty of professional research. The reality is that they will soon replace the honey bee; sooner than anybody thought if this CCD turns out to be worse than I think it is going to be. The only reason Honey Bees are traditionally used is because of honey production, we all know that honey consuption is falling. 
Bumble bees are showing the same trends and are available for purchase as well. They are popular right now with hot house growers because they can work in that environment when a Honey bee cannot survive when confined to such a small area.


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## florida pollinator (Jul 31, 2006)

Yeah, 
I'd like to see the 50,000 plus bumble bee boxes needed, number one found and paid for , then moved to Maine next month.
As for your statement that pollination of crops is not nor could ever be in danger of not happening is ill advised. With all that has happened to the dog and cat food of late from IMPORTED food products do you want to buy all imported fruit and veggies????


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

We remove hives at petal fall. That is because from that point on insecticides will be sprayed on 10-14 day intervals for the next 2-3 months to eliminate cherry fruit fly. I am pretty sure apples and many other fruits will be the same.

I think that Mason bees go dormant in May or so, but I would suspect that you would need to remove them before spraying started. Maybe you just buy new mason bees each year, but the resulting workload would be prohibitive.

I don't have studies to back this up, but I have also raised Mason bees. I do believe that bumble bees are a little more efficient pollinizers (see message above), that are not that much more efficient. 6 Mason bees are not going to replace hundreds of honey bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Orchardists would be doing this if it were as easy as it sounds here. Maybe some are, but none that I know in NY.


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

Maybe another poll by state/province would be in order? This seems to be regional.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

sqkcrk said:


> Orchardists would be doing this if it were as easy as it sounds here. Maybe some are, but none that I know in NY.


Personally I don't think that it sounds easy. I think that most orchardists will leave the pollination to the experts. My dad was raised with the attitude that you don't pay for anything that you can do for yourself.

We milked cows, raised chickens, pigs, fruit, vegetables. We only bought things like flower, sugar and things that we couldn't reasonably raise ourselves. (We didn't can cherries though). So, he decided that rather than rent bees he would keep his own. He did this for probably 10-15 years. He finally decided to leave the bees to the commercial guys. He gave the hives to an operator in return for free or reduced rent for a while. As you know it is a lot of work to have bees ready for fruit pollination. 

We had 40 hives for our 40 (at the time) acres. I think that he always rented some hives anyway because 1/3 of them were dead or too small. It just wasn't worth the risk. 

I think that they pay about $40-45 per hive for bees (the growers place the hives in their orchards). I think that they rent about 48 hives for their 55 acres because 10 or so are always too young to produce. I can't imagine that they would spend the time to deal with Mason bees in return for $2000. Not that they could spend much more money because having 55 acres of cherries is kind of like 200 hives. A lot of work, but you still need two jobs to support your expensive hobby. Both my mom and dad had real jobs (teachers).

How would you know if your Mason bees were all dead after winter? I think that they are only active for a month or two. What happens if they come out of dormancy before the bloom? Even at 6 bees per tree we would need 20,000 bees. There is no way they would change from honey bees.

Right now professional beekeepers (Nick Noyes probably knows them if he is in Fruitland. They (Kellers) are from Ontario, OR) bring a semi load of bees in and drop them off in town. Growers place the hives and bring them back at the end of the bloom, so for two nights work (2-3 hours) and $2000 that is the end of it. 

Maybe they would change if you guys want to bring in semi's of Mason bee blocks or bumble bee hives, but orchardists in general wouldn't risk the year.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I don't know where the 6 bee figure is comming from? But anybody who is intrested can search the USDA web sight for info...they have been doing research with them in Utah I think....I also remember an article in bee culture about them a few years ago that could probably be found.


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

This thread seems to have gotten of track. Was not the question related to loss from CCD? I have had big losses the past 2 season, with this year being good. The prious 2 season I went from 500 hives in Sept. to 165 at pollination time (feb). This year I started Oct. 06 with 600 hives and was able to take 485 to pollination. What I found was that when a yard does get infected do not move hives in or out and do not mix them up. once it is in that yard you have to let it run it course (CCD) then work with the survivors. With hive that were in the process of dwindling I let them die off then set the empty boxes on the side for a while, ie. do not reuse box for new hive right away. This year also after almond pollination any hives that I found dead that the bees were not robbing out, I also put those boxes aside until I see bees robbing it out. The bees will tell you when it is OK to use, they know something we don't. Note, I did find a few that died at pollination that the bees robbed ouy right away, I used those boxes and frames for my splits.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

That is a tough break.....hope someone figures it out soon. loosing that many hives have you seen any trends among them or found anything that may be a cause?


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