# Wingless bees



## Mitchell (May 16, 2007)

A one year old colony that otherwise looks to be doing well, is casting out well-developed larvae that appear wingless or have deformed wings.

What could this be?


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

Sounds like a might problem.


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## Mitchell (May 16, 2007)

Guess I'll have to break out the thymol as soon as it warms up.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Deformed Wing Virus is the likely problem here.

DWV is one of the first viruses to get out of hand when varroa
get out of hand.


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

Do a search here or on Google for:

"Deformed Wing Virus"

Also, do a mite count to see where you're at.

DS


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

Mites would be the first suspect. 

Although depending on what they look like they could also be brood that they are disposing of for some reason...the wings don't usually stay in good shape. If they had lots of drones and you have a dearth, or if the brood died for some other reason, like getting cold, but that would be a second line of investigation.

-r


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## golddust-twins (Sep 8, 2007)

>A one year old colony that otherwise looks to be doing well, is casting out well-developed larvae that appear wingless 

Mitchell, I too was experiencing this same situation just last week before our nice spring weather turned to winter weather again. It was only drone larvae--well developed almost ready to hatch and wingless not deformed but wingless. No workers just drone. My sbb counts have been 0 to 3 mites every 2 to 3 days. Tomorrow I plan on going into the hive to see what is happening. My weather here is starting to get nice again and it should be in the 60's.

Corinne


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

golddust-twins;312824 It was only drone larvae--well developed almost ready to hatch and wingless not deformed but wingless. No workers just drone. My sbb counts have been 0 to 3 mites every 2 to 3 days. [/QUOTE said:


> Were the drones actually hatching? The wings are the last thing to form, and maybe those drones that you thought were ready to hatch, really weren't.


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## golddust-twins (Sep 8, 2007)

>Were the drones actually hatching? 
I don't think they were actually hatching but very close to hatching.

>The wings are the last thing to form, and maybe those drones that you thought were ready to hatch, really weren't. 
Maybe not.


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## acb's (Apr 14, 2007)

Mitchell, 
Don't know if this will help you any, but will post this link just in case. These are drone pupae that were in some burr comb between the boxes that I found when going through the hive. Can't tell you exactly how old they are, but they were capped and healthy (before I tore things apart, anyway). They look rather well developed except for their color and wings. It is rather hard to see the wings since they sort of fold down and blend in with the legs at this stage. The wings can be seen a little more clearly coming out of the side of the thorax just behind the head when you can get a closer look at them.

Hope this helps. As some of the others have already said, you may not have a problem at all!

Arvin


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## Efraim Mescheloff (Jun 27, 2006)

*Varrhoa mites love drones*

because of their larger size and longer period of development, drones are an ideal brooding ground for varrhoa mites. One of the many suggested methods for overcoming these mites has been to eliminate all brone cells from the hives. 
In any event, because they are larger, drone brood tend to "carry" more developing mites which in the end lead to the development of adults with shriveled and almost non-existent wings. 
Get rid of the varrhoa and you'll get back to rearing normal bees--workers and drones.
Just keep in mind, that queens bred while check-mite residues are in the hive tend to be poor layers.


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## Li'l Joe (Apr 10, 2008)

*No wings means Varroa*

Missing or deformed wings is a very clear indicator of varroa mites. Take a close look at your bees, do a mite count, etc. and take action soon.


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

previously posted on the first page.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

I would suspect virus also, but there are other causes of deformed wings such as chilling the larvae during the period when while the wing buds are developing.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Is anyone else in western Oregon seeing this?
We got bees back from the cherries and found the same thing in some hives. In our case it is definately Not varroa. I checked very thoroughly and could not find any varroa in any of the hives.
I was thinking it was pesticide related or toxic pollen?


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## roger eagles (Apr 18, 2004)

*wingless*

I had that way back and found fowl brood.Medicated and cured.If its a bad one,OUCH.


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## Bee_Sweet (May 27, 2008)

*Shriveled Wings & the Queen*

I have also noticed the shriveled wings or DWV in one of my two hives. That hive superseded the first queen and the second Queen's brood also had DWV.

My second hive that had no previous signs of DWV, lost their Queen do to swarming and the Queen cells were cut out by accident to prevent the swarm (did not work). So a frame of fresh eggs were given to them from the first hive. Now DWV is noticed in the second hive.....! 

The first hives second Queen was superseded again. I'm thinking it is because of the DWV and the bees know it. Natures way of killing off the week (only the strong survive).

*So, I'm wondering if the Queen can be a host of the Deformed Wing Virus and pass it on to her eggs? It is seeming to be the case here anyway...*

The mite numbers are not high in my hives. However, I'm going to do some mite control via FGMO and maybe sugar dusting. Also, considering replacing both hives with new Queens from different breeders.

Right now Hive #1 has about 20 Queen cells & no Queen (I'm going to Wait to re-queen until she starts laying eggs or if they try to supersede the new one they raise).

Hive #2 has a new queen of about a 1 week, and she started to lay eggs, but then stopped. I will continue to monitor throughout the mite treatment.

What are your thoughts?


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I would first do a sticky board for mite counts. If you do not have on on hand a piece of cardboard with vasaline works well at catching the mites.
Any thing over 2-3 mites in a 24 hour period is not good and should have some method of treatment.
Knock down all the cells, get rid of the queen and replace with a new queen which is varroa resistant. That would help.
Another method is using a honey frame scratcher and pull out capped drone brood and check for mites.
Take the scratcher, slide it into the drone brood, stabbing it from the side. This way you can take out many brood. Pull the scrather straight up. You will pop out the brood, just look them over for the mites.


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## Matt Guyrd (Nov 28, 2007)

honeyshack said:


> Any thing over 2-3 mites in a 24 hour period is not good and should have some method of treatment.


I would have to respectfully disagree with "2-3 mites in a 24-hour period". Nearly all hives have mites. It is important to read about Varroa, their life cycle, and how colonies deal with the mites. And from your research, develop a threshold of mites at which time treatment is needed. The threshold will be different for each of us, but 2-3 per 24hrs is a very low count.

Continue to regularly monitor the mite count/drop (every couple of weeks, or even once a month). This will give you good feedback on the mite cycle and, more importantly, how your colony's mite tolerance is with Varroa.

IMHO, treating for 2-3 mites, even 20 mites, in a 24-hr count is a waste of time and money (depending on your treatment methods).

Matt


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I have right now hives with 16 mites in a 24 hour period. I had the inspector out and she sent in a sample from my hives. I got a call back telling me to treat or I would not see alot of honey this year. My mite count is at 4%. The call came from Manitoba Agriculture from the University of Manitoba where they test the samples. They call anyone who is over 1%
The recommend nothing over 2-4 mites in a 24 hour period.
12-20 mites in a 24 hour period and formic (mite away 2) is good in one treatment to knock them back. Over that and either two treatments of formic or check mite and then formic. From the university.


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## Matt Guyrd (Nov 28, 2007)

Honeyshack...thanks for posting the info you received from the university. Interesting stuff. 

As noted before, we will all have different thresholds for treatment. Maybe with the longer winters in Canada, Varroa counts can reach higher numbers during a time when treatment isn't possible (Varroa populations increase significantly in the winter). And maybe that is why the university recommends treatment in the 12-20/24hr range.

I do stick by my previous post in that treatment with anything over 2-3 mites per 24 hours is a waste of time and money.

For me, 12-20 mites in 24 hours is a red flag and I take note of the hives when counts are this high...I don't consider taking action until around 40 mites/24hr. Again, that's my threshold. I have not treated with chemicals (yet) and prefer the Dowda Method, breaking mite cycles, etc. I am a hobbiest and can afford breaking brood cycles, etc...of course this depends ont he time of year too.

Matt


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Well, i read on a bee web site that varroa can double in 3 weeks. So, if at the end of June some hives have 16 drop, mid July they will have 32 drop, second week in August it will be 64 drop first week in September 128 drop. This is if no treatment is done. By then the damage is done, the hive is weaker and has little time to recover before they get wrapped, by October 25th.
http://www.montgomerycountybeekeepers.com/honeypot/0707_HoneyPot.pdf

pages 6-9 this talks about monthly thresholds and states treating at 3% is better than treating at 30% to be effective.


At 32 formic, or mite away 2 has trouble knocking them back to acceptable levels with one three week treatment. Now you have to use a harsh chemical like check mite or what does not have resisitance. Or you have to use two treatments of formic. That is 6 weeks of formic. Why not knock them back before they get to bad.
By the way right now I am using the icing sugar method to treat the bad hives. I've done three weeks now. It seems have strengthed the hives. Also i do not have SBB yet so I am using sticky boards to catch the mites. Not completely effective but there is something there. I have to say the hives are considerable pushed back as compared to the rest. I also bought drone come to insert into the hives this year to help with control as well, several hive got the breeding cycle treatment....not by my choice, but due to swarming.


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## Matt Guyrd (Nov 28, 2007)

Honeyshack...the Montgomery County Club link was a good read. Keep in mind that the 3% threshold is an arbitrary number unless you know the approximate number of bees in your hive.

Also, I perform the mite drop count precisely the way it is described in the article. Note that the mite drop count in the table on page 9 is even significantly higher than my threshold of 40 mites/24hr. According to the table, during the month of July with an average colony of 55,000 bees, treatment should begin at an approximate mite drop count of _120_ mites in a 24-hour period. Now I wouldn't take this table as gospel, but it is a place to start.

Also, your numbers seem to be a bit more in-line with the results of a sugar shake mite count, as oppose to the 24-hr mite drop count.

Mitchell...sorry to have hi-jacked your thread...although I suppose it is somewhat related still. 

Matt


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## Action (Jan 8, 2005)

*Buck-eye*

Any California Buck-eye in OR.?
Jack


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