# For Mortise & Tenon joints and Rabbets what tools would I need?



## randydrivesabus (Apr 27, 2006)

you would need a drill and a chisel to cut the mortise. a table saw or router for the tenon. you could do it with hand tools if you have the time. if the mortise is shallow a router can be used for it.


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## Swobee (May 18, 2007)

Mortising jig/bits for drill press is a safe means. A 'Sled' or similar jig for a table saw to cut the tenons will help. There are also router jigs you can build yourself- you can find them in some router and shop jig books. A table saw for the rabbets, or even a router for that matter.


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## ekrouse (Aug 26, 2004)

*Just a technicality*

I think what you want to create are "box joints". That is the official name for the kind of joint that suppliers provide with hive bodies. A mortise & tenon is an extended piece of wood with shoulders (the tenon) which goes into a hole (the mortise) which is typically rectangular in shape. Good for making furniture.

A table saw (with Dado blades) is the best way to make rabbets (where the frames rest) and boxjoints.

-Eric


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Either table saw with dado blade or router will work for both box joints and mortise and tenon. It is possible to make a mortise and tenon joint for hive but if you are not going to do box joint just do a rabbet joint for the frame rest as well as to join the box together. Nothing to be gained by the mortise and tenon and I would not recommend. As mentioned above you would also need chisel for the mortise and drill press would also help. Or a plunge router (what I use for mortise and tenon)


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I have both and find the table saw easier to use. 
The router bit gets too hot with lots of use and dulls quickly, I have also broken a few and they are not cheap.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Let's see.....

1) Chisel only, chop out the mortise and tenon, or more likely, handsaw the tenon
2) chisel and drill, drill out the waste in the mortise and square with a chisel, handsaw the mortise
3) chisel and rabbet plane, plane the tenon
4) Chisel and tablesaw, saw out the mortise with multiple passes over the blade, or use a tenon jig and cut the cheeks in one pass
5) mortise machine and tablesaw, drill and chisel square in one pass
6) hand boring machine, chisel, saw of choice
7) chain mortise machine, chisel, saw, etc
8) plunge router, saw, etc
9) bandsaw instead of table saw....

You get the picture.....now for rabbets...

1) rabbet plane
2) saw and chisel
3) tablesaw with regular blade
4) tablesaw with dado blade
5) router
6) router plane and saw
7) moving filister plane

Box joints are almost exclusively the realm of power tools. They were invented to replace time consuming dovetails at the expense of some strength. Either a tablesaw and dado blade or a router in table with a boxjoint jig will work.


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

Ross, you left out the biscuit option - straight square cuts then cut biscuit slots with special tool (<$100) then glue with biscuits.

Birch biscuits swell when glue is applied and provide a joint that is about same as a mortise and tenon.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I my experience, biscuits don't even come close to a true mortise and tenon for strength or alignment. A 1/4 inch or so of 1/8 inch wafer just doesn't present much holding power for glue or leverage. Each to his own I guess. I've used my PC biscuit jointer twice in 5-6 years, I just hate it.


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

*biscuits...*

I was thinking the biscuit option also. At present I do not have a biscuit cutter but its on my list. When you get a dado blade make sure you pay the extra and get a good dado blade. I made that mistake. My cheap dado blade does not cut a true square so I end up haveing to sand the joint a bit. A new dado blade is on order.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

You can do a full length spline as easily as a a biscuit joint and all you need is the tablesaw. Just as strong would be glue and screws. Stronger would be rabbets, glue and screws.


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

I see this all the time at wood working meetings. I guess it is all a matter of personal preference. For bee hives I like rabbet joints and glue/staples. Box joints are nice also but more work. I won't get a biscuit cutter until I find the need for one. I know lots of woodworkers that swear by biscuits though.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

I was real hot on biscuit joints for a while. Used them constantly. Went through a porter cable biscuit joiner, then got a dewalt. BUt now I hardly ever use it. All mortise and tenon, rabbets, box or dovetail joints.

And I have gotten into true plain butt joints for edge joining. Funny how that is...


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## John F (Dec 9, 2005)

JohnBeeMan said:


> Ross, you left out the biscuit option - straight square cuts then cut biscuit slots with special tool (<$100) then glue with biscuits.
> 
> Birch biscuits swell when glue is applied and provide a joint that is about same as a mortise and tenon.


Mortises are cut so that their length is aligned long grain so that a tenon long grain glues to mortise long grain.

Building boxes like we are talking about using a mortise/tenon joint, we would have a bunch of tenons on one board that looked pretty close to a box joint and mortises in the other that looked like pockets meant nearly for a box joint.

A biscuit or spline will help in aligning but not all that much in strength since we end up gluing long grain to end grain. (just on both sides rather than one.)

For solid wood boxes the tried and true dovetail or box joints are the way to go for strength. Mitres, rabbets, butts are good if you don't have pulling or racking issues.

For plywood I use a locking mitre joint as it gives me the biggest glue surface area in the joint in which I can get all of the plys involved.

For putting together solid wood bee boxes:

rabbet or double rabbet - strength and simplicity
butt joints - a little less strength but even simpler
I glue and pin or brad where the pins/brads are to hold it together until the glue sets.

I do admit that I like the reasoning Michael Bush gave for screws in a similar thread. His reasoning was concerning failure mode as a strictly glue joint will fail catastrophically whereas a joint with a mechanical fastener will get loose when it fails.

So, how about that domino?


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## John F (Dec 9, 2005)

BerkeyDavid said:


> I was real hot on biscuit joints for a while. Used them constantly. Went through a porter cable biscuit joiner, then got a dewalt. BUt now I hardly ever use it. All mortise and tenon, rabbets, box or dovetail joints.
> 
> And I have gotten into true plain butt joints for edge joining. Funny how that is...


But edge joining is where the spline/biscuit will help! 

Edit: assuming edging end grain.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

I am talking about edge joining to make panels. Yes I used to think it was essential to use biscuits or splines to strengthen it. No more. I just spread the glue on each edge, line it up based on finger touch, tighten the bar clamp, then go on to the next clamp.

I have seen tests in my woodworking mags that confirm that the plain old butt joint in edge joining is just as strong as the biscuit or spline.

Glue a couple up, let them dry then bust them and you will be surprised!


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Great discussion. I have been making boxes for the last couple of weeks using wood I milled last year. I have been milling 7 1/4 inch boards for just this purpose. All mediums so I have not had to glue boards together to make a wide board. I have been thinking of gluing a few scraps together to make tops and bottoms. This thread was very helpful. I read the thread on the box jig. I'll need 14 inch boards for that.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Hampton
What do you have for a mill? I own a Timberking 1600 and like it alot. This area is mostly hardwoods so I haven't milled much for woodenware. I have a little hemlock and some spruce I am going to make covers out of.


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## Matt Guyrd (Nov 28, 2007)

Slightly off-topic as this doesn't address the OP's question, but as a weekend woodworking warrior and really green beekeeper (starting my first colonies this Spring), can anybody else relate to the slight annoyance that Brushy Mt calls their woodenware "dovetailed" versus "box joint". Their woodenware does not use a dovetail joint, at least not the type of dovetail joint I am familiar with.

Now, I bought a bunch of equipment, included some woodenware from Brushy Mt, and the experience was great, including the quality of the woodenware, so this is not to be a slam of Brushy Mt...just what seems to be an oversight on their terminology. Each time I look at their catalog and read "dovetail" it makes me shake my head.

And, maybe there is a logical explaination that is lost on me...I don't know.

Matt


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Matt Guyrd said:


> Their woodenware does not use a dovetail joint, at least not the type of dovetail joint I am familiar with.
> 
> ... Each time I look at their catalog and read "dovetail" it makes me shake my head.
> 
> And, maybe there is a logical explaination that is lost on me...I don't know.


Same here. No explanation other than 
a) ignorance and 
b) marketing.
To many people a dovetail joint means strength.

Surprisingly, in a recent test covered in Wood, the dovetail joints were not nearly as strong as the good old box joint, which came out "head and shoulders" above all other joints.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Don't believe everything you read. I am a host for Wood on old tools and consult on some articles. I had real problems with several aspects of that article and told them so. There are a number of other studies that have been done that had very different results. Many of their problems were a result of using a joint in an inappropriate or non-traditional manner. One they called a joint failure was actually a wood failure, the joint was still intact. The dovetail is mechanically superior to box joints in racking and should be roughly equivalent in most other modes. It has never been proven that anything is superior to the mortise and tenon in my opinion when used in an appropriate manner. The idea that a half lap is better is laughable. Try applying even mild torque (real world) and it will twist away at the shoulder, not possible with a M&T joint. Using a jig for the test prevented this failure mode but is not real world. Make it a through tenon equivalent in length to the half lap and again it would be superior even in that scued test mode. Using a sliding dovetail in an endgrain position is likewise unrealistic. Use it on an overlay drawer with 3/4" or more of meat to the end and it would have been perfectly fine.


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

BlueGrass,

I have a small Hud-Son mill. It can cut a 28" log but the engine is a bit small at 8hp. I cut any wood I can get my hands on. We have just about any type of wood here in Virginia. My regular hives I purchase from Beeline Apiaries in Pa. I have made several special hives from wood I cut. Having the mill is great. I just have to think ahead for a project. 

Sorry to get off topic. I just wanted to answer the question. 

Andy


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Ross said:


> Don't believe everything you read. I am a host for Wood on old tools and consult on some articles. I had real problems with several aspects of that article and told them so. There are a number of other studies that have been done that had very different results. Many of their problems were a result of using a joint in an inappropriate or non-traditional manner. One they called a joint failure was actually a wood failure, the joint was still intact. The dovetail is mechanically superior to box joints in racking and should be roughly equivalent in most other modes. It has never been proven that anything is superior to the mortise and tenon in my opinion when used in an appropriate manner. The idea that a half lap is better is laughable. Try applying even mild torque (real world) and it will twist away at the shoulder, not possible with a M&T joint. Using a jig for the test prevented this failure mode but is not real world. Make it a through tenon equivalent in length to the half lap and again it would be superior even in that scued test mode. Using a sliding dovetail in an endgrain position is likewise unrealistic. Use it on an overlay drawer with 3/4" or more of meat to the end and it would have been perfectly fine.


Interesting, thanks Ross. Yes I agree with you that the mortise and tenon joint is the best. - Just not for beeboxes!


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Agreed. We kind of got off topic there didn't we


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