# What type of bee hive is best for the home bee keeper



## Beelosopher

Hello all I am considering taking on some bees this spring and would like to know what people think is the best type of hive. I mean if money were no object, and the health and safety of the bees was the top priority. 

I am not saying I want to pay a ton of cash, but I am ok with buying something, or making somehting that is high quality since I only plan on have 1-2 bee hives total on my property. Once I have those boxes if I want to build more I have the design right there to copy 

Thanks for you opinions.

It would be very helpful to point out the positives/negatives of the frames vs. bar top designs. I plan to be a bee keeper primarily for pollination, but also know I will get into extracting some honey and wax as it is available and doesn't hurt the hive. 

Thanks!!


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## throrope

For bee health, IMHO if the hive isn't hindering their activity or trapping moisture, a "better" hive does not exist. After that I feel it's location and managing them within your lifestyle, but without over management.

For me the choice of hive is about time and money. If you don't want to build it, standard commercial grade gear shows up at the front door. If you want minimal investment, top bar hives have much to offer. With money and time, you're only limited by imagination.

I started and now stay with Langstroth hives, tried top bars, but failed.

I suggest staying away from beginner's kits. My smoker and hive tool are the only things remaining from mine.


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## westernbeekeeper

Start with Langstroth equipment, and go with all 8-frame medium supers and equipment.


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## Luterra

The Warre hive folks claim to best approximate the native habitat of bees, namely tree cavities. They are a bit top-heavy but modular and the number of boxes can be adjusted to the size of your colony. With some modification you can stack Warre boxes on top of a Langstroth box to start from a nuc.
http://www.beethinking.com/warre-hives

Top bar hives are probably the easiest to build but are not modular, meaning that you can't add space for more honey or to alleviate swarming, and also that it is very hard to lift/move the hive when filled with honey. Small colonies in top bar hives will have more space than they can take care of, potentially leading to problems with wax moths, mice, etc.

Langstroth hives are easiest to manipulate. If you don't plan to inspect often this may not be as important to you. They are also the only design that allows you to extract honey without destroying the comb. This results in somewhat higher yields as bees don't need to draw comb each year.

I have Langstroth hives and like them, though I might experiment with the Warre design sometime. I second Westernbeekeeper's suggestion to have all your boxes the same size. As I got secondhand equipment from several sources, I now have deeps, semi-deeps, and mediums. Kind of a pain if I want to move frames of honey and brood around.

Mark


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## BeeCurious

Beelosopher,

I would also suggest that you use all 8-frame mediums. 

If you want to be an outcast at the local bee club I would have suggestions to help with that as well... For your broodnests, you could use the new narrow frames that will be offered for sale by Walter T Kelley. They allow you to have nine frames in an eight frame box. A couple of members are cutting down Mann Lake's PF-120 small cell plastic frames and mounting the cut out pf-120 "foundation" in wooden frames. If you wish to spend a little time and $$, you might enjoy being the maverick at the bee meeting. So, I would go with all 8-frame mediums, with small cell plastic foundation mounted in Kelley's narrow frames in the brood nest, and unaltered pf-120 frames in the supers.


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## dfortune

I'd get the standard langstroth, cause once you get a few hives you'll probably want more. Or it could be the other way around and you want to get out, so standard equipment would be easier to sell. Bee hive health depends primary on the beekeeper's management practices, as all hive types follow the same basic principles.


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## tsmullins

westernbeekeeper said:


> Start with Langstroth equipment, and go with all 8-frame medium supers and equipment.


+1 on all eight frame medium Lang equipment. The only thing I would add is use small cell foundation or foundationless. 

Shane


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## codyjp

westernbeekeeper said:


> Start with Langstroth equipment, and go with all 8-frame medium supers and equipment.


Advice, I wish I had when I started.


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## Beelosopher

So just curious, why the 8 frame instead of 10 frame? I was already sorta leaning towards langstroth styled hives for many of the reasons you are all citing.

Lutera - "Langstroth hives are easiest to manipulate. If you don't plan to inspect often this may not be as important to you. They are also the only design that allows you to extract honey without destroying the comb. This results in somewhat higher yields as bees don't need to draw comb each year."

That was a huge point about the top bar and it making the comb unusable. That goes against my initial goal of taking honey as incidental. Thanks! 

Since I don't know how often I will get stung, not sure how often I will be inspecting the hive haha. But I would prefer to have the modular approach. I need to find some places with good prices. Dadant is pretty close to me, so I might have to road trip it to look at some of their stuff. Tough part is that I don't know what I am buying yet 
So hard to know waht works in the field

I really appreciate your comments and please keep them coming.


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## LeonardS

This is my first year and I have all 10 frame Langstroth hives. Deeps for the brood boxes and mediums for the supers. I have learned that the budget or economy boxes are just fine. I wait for sales and buy them from Mann Lake and receive free shipping on orders over $100.


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## toekneepea

Beelosopher said:


> So just curious, why the 8 frame instead of 10 frame? I was already sorta leaning towards langstroth styled hives for many of the reasons you are all citing.


The 8 frame equipment is lighter.

In my experience, bees will often leave the outer most frames in 10-frame equipment untouched, and the beekeeper needs to manipulate the hive more to fill all 10 frames of each box. I experimented with two 8-frame hives this year, and the bees seemed to build up faster in the 8 frame hives, preferring to chimney up in an 8-frame box rather than spread out to 10.

Cheers,
Tony P.


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## Beelosopher

toekneepea said:


> The 8 frame equipment is lighter.
> 
> In my experience, bees will often leave the outer most frames in 10-frame equipment untouched, and the beekeeper needs to manipulate the hive more to fill all 10 frames of each box. I experimented with two 8-frame hives this year, and the bees seemed to build up faster in the 8 frame hives, preferring to chimney up in an 8-frame box rather than spread out to 10.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tony P.


very good to know. I was thinking 10 frame until now.


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## sqkcrk

If you buy the most popular and most commonly used equipment you will be able to sell it should you find you want to. Plus, if you want to buy more equipment you will be able to find equipment which will easily match up to what you already own.

Unless you are unable to lift a super of honey weighing 45 to 60 lbs, maybe you should go w/ all mediums and for an even lighter lift eight frame equipment would be good for you. But, if you are young and realitively strong I would recommend standard size deep 10 frame supers for brood chambers and shallows supers for honey supers, all Langstroth type equipment. Unless you find that you will have to move a two story hive (two deeps) of ten frame equipment ten frame deeps are not too much to handle.


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## Beelosopher

throrope said:


> I suggest staying away from beginner's kits. My smoker and hive tool are the only things remaining from mine.


Along these lines are there any tips you have on good equipment. I should have included that in my post. I am starting from zero, but prefer to buy things once that work well, or I end up re-engineering them anyway.


sqkcrk - I should have said that I am in my 30's and would consider myself a strong lad. I probably should have pointed that out since the lifting aspect of the hive does come into play.


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## sqkcrk

You aren't all that far from Waverly,NY are you? Take a trip down to the Dadant Outlet in Waverly. Then you can look at a wearhouse full of equipment, peruse their catalog and meet some really nice folks who have been selling beekeeping equipment and advising beekeepers, or potential beekeepers, for ages.

You also should check out eshpa.org, the website of the statewide association of beekeepers. You will find reference to our Fall Meeting, featuring Michael Bush, Tom Rinderer, and Steven Coy, plus a list of Local Clubs, so you can find a group near you to join for monthly meetings. Look it up.


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## Beelosopher

sqkcrk said:


> You aren't all that far from Waverly,NY are you? Take a trip down to the Dadant Outlet in Waverly. Then you can look at a wearhouse full of equipment, peruse their catalog and meet some really nice folks who have been selling beekeeping equipment and advising beekeepers, or potential beekeepers, for ages.
> 
> You also should check out eshpa.org, the website of the statewide association of beekeepers. You will find reference to our Fall Meeting, featuring Michael Bush, Tom Rinderer, and Steven Coy, plus a list of Local Clubs, so you can find a group near you to join for monthly meetings. Look it up.


Just saw where you were from. I grew up in Norwood and played Brasher Falls in soccer some years! Yeah i am about 2 or so hours from Dadant (just got their catalogue today). Have eaten my share of honey products from Brasher too!

I really want to go down, but want to make sure I know what I am looking for before I do. I also want to really get good bee equipment so I don't get frtustrated in the begining handling hte bees. I think I will be ok with it. But normally when a bee tries to sting me a nija swat them. That won't really work in this scenario haha. i.e. I want equip that let's me relax, so the bees will relax.



Just checked that link and there are no bee clubs in my county or any of the surrounding - sucks


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## throrope

Beelosopher said:


> Along these lines are there any tips you have on good equipment.


Two of these

http://www.amazon.com/Titan-11509-M...&qid=1347312017&sr=8-5&keywords=titan+pry+bar
http://www.amazon.com/GRIP-STAINLES...311876&sr=8-5&keywords=stainless+steel+prybar


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## cg3

I'd also suggest the 8 frame all medium setup. I started with a TBH and deeps and it was a pain to switch over to mediums.


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## joan

I started with a 10 frame all medium hive and a deep "styrofoam" hive. Don't mind either deeps or mediums, but I hated the styrofoam. They also do not fit well with any wooden equipment. I know most of Europe uses them, but I found them annoying.


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## sqkcrk

Beelosopher,
Are you asking about hive equipment or bee suits? I'm not sure.

Where did you live in Norwood?


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## dfortune

Didnt really see it spelled out here, so in case you didnt know 8 frame equipment is not near as common as ten. Not sure that will influence your decision though. A lot of people use 9 frames in a ten frame box. I personlly would recomend doing this as there are many advantages.


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## tsmullins

toekneepea said:


> The 8 frame equipment is lighter.
> 
> In my experience, bees will often leave the outer most frames in 10-frame equipment untouched, and the beekeeper needs to manipulate the hive more to fill all 10 frames of each box. I experimented with two 8-frame hives this year, and the bees seemed to build up faster in the 8 frame hives, preferring to chimney up in an 8-frame box rather than spread out to 10.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tony P.


This has been my experience as well.

Shane


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## kilocharlie

Well, I'll stick my neck out. You are up in New York, where it gets COLD. You might consider a modified WBC (William Broughton Carr) hive, Langstroth dimensions on the inside. The double walls sure do keep it warmer in the winter, cooler in the summer, and drier inside. Warre hives are a pain to lift, but WBC's aren't that bad. The Lang' inside box uses standard equipment - you could use all medium equipment, 8- or 10-frame. You modify the lifts (outer, ship lapped-looking boxes) to have one inch of dead airspace clearance inside. They are truly beautiful, especially with a copper roof! If you are only running two of them, why not get fancy, and add to your bees chances of survival?

I prefer 10-frame mediums. I cut 3 vertical slots down the inside of the short ends of the boxes. The slots are 9/64" wide (a hair over 1/4") and 3/32" deep. A hive divider is made of a piece of 1/4" plywood, which is cut and sanded to fit into the slots. I can use it for 3 x 3-frame mating nucleus colonies by using 2 hive dividers, 2 x 5-frame double nucs by using only one divider in the middle slot, 7 + 3-frame breeder queen isolation with a divider in either side that has queen excluder on it, a 7-frame nuc with a 2-gallon Mann Lake frame feeder, or a 10-frame medium. That's 5 uses from any box in my apiary, and all the same size frames. They weigh about 50 lbs when full. A deep Langstroth weighs 90 lbs, an 8-frame medium weighs 40 lbs. I do make special bottom boards and inner covers for the nuc arrangements. Just suggesting an option to consider...good luck!


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## sqkcrk

Sorry Charlie, not necassary. Good thoughts, but a dbl walled hive isn't necassary in NY.


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## dfortune

Your mind must be exploding with answers. Since you pointed out money was of no concern to you, why not try several different types to see what works best for you. Go ahead and throw an observation hive in the mix also.


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## BeeCurious

I wouldn't choose my equipment based on how easily it might be sold...


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## Beelosopher

Both the hive equip and suits. I am starting from zero. I lived on Prospect Street (parents still live there). In fact I will be heading up there for a visit next week I think.


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## Beelosopher

dfortune said:


> Didnt really see it spelled out here, so in case you didnt know 8 frame equipment is not near as common as ten. Not sure that will influence your decision though. A lot of people use 9 frames in a ten frame box. I personlly would recomend doing this as there are many advantages.


what are some of the advantages ot hte 9/10 frame set up? I thought that the 8 frames weren't as common, so frankly I was surprised to see so many people using them.


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## dfortune

Advantages of 9/10 frames. More ventilation for healthier hive, the extra ventilation also helps to prevent swarming. Its easier to get the frames out than ten cause once everything gets propolized frames can get really tight. Less likely to kill queen removing frames. Also, they draw the cells out farther wich makes bigger bees in the brood chamber and easier to remove cappings in the honey supers.


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## mmmooretx

I have been reading on this subject for a couple of months and am glad to see all of the different views. I currently have a TBH waiting for April when package bees are available from my supplier, basically I wanted to see how this works. I am going to a TBH class this Sat. I do have 3 10 frame Langs., just did a split from 1 to 3 hives with purchased mated queens (2). 8 frames I see the weight advantage and there may be a vertical space advantage that the bees like. Since the deep and medium frames fit either box you can always convert from 8-10. I might have gone with 8 frame boxes if I had decided early enough on my standard, but I guess I will stick with 10 since I now have 3 hives. 9/10 I can see how this would reduce cross comb if they decide to build fat honey comb, and I have a couple of frames that are fatter. I do not see a lot of fat brood comb, but they do cycle the combs use. I just started 2 June this year so I am a newbee and this is only my 2c worth.
All - Thanks for sharing all of the views to help us newbees.....


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## Beelosopher

dfortune said:


> Advantages of 9/10 frames. More ventilation for healthier hive, the extra ventilation also helps to prevent swarming. Its easier to get the frames out than ten cause once everything gets propolized frames can get really tight. Less likely to kill queen removing frames. Also, they draw the cells out farther wich makes bigger bees in the brood chamber and easier to remove cappings in the honey supers.


wow that is a host of positives! And many of them sound good for a new bee keeper. Thanks!




dfortune said:


> Your mind must be exploding with answers. Since you pointed out money was of no concern to you, why not try several different types to see what works best for you. Go ahead and throw an observation hive in the mix also.


I would like to say money was no object haha but it of course is because I am married so the wife must approve as well  My point was that since I only currently own 2+ acres I only plan on taking on 1-2 hives tops. Now I do know some people with land and agriculture and probably could expand, but right now, and for the foreseeable future, I am not looking to be a sideliner, I plan to keep it small. So because of that, I would be ok with getting really good quality hive equipment, smoker, suit, veil and hives. Hives in particular, because then I will have a cheat sheet and be able to copy the design for building my next hive.

Bottom line is that we are DIY homesteader types and i have learned that if you get the right set up it frees you up from problems so you can keep up with the 80 other things you have taken on. If it doesn't work right, then I have to redesign it, which can be fun, but time consuming. You should see my all electric brewing rig... Point is sometimes it is worth paying for functionality (perhaps this isn;t the case with bee keeping and I am over thinking it :scratch

I also have time on my side, and a birthday and Christmas to help me sweet talk my wife into letting me buy good stuff for the spring


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## sqkcrk

Well then, if you are going to build it yourself, and I never thought I would ever say this, maybe a Top Bar Hive is the way to go.


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## Beelosopher

sqkcrk said:


> Well then, if you are going to build it yourself, and I never thought I would ever say this, maybe a Top Bar Hive is the way to go.


I might build the second hive it it makes sense. I am really leaning on langstroth and considering the 8 and 10 frame set up. Sounds like the 10 frame has some big advantages if you go 9 frames. What I am not sure about is whether to do all mediums or go with a deep for the brood and then mediums for the rest. Sounds like a lot of people like the mediums for user friendly aspects so maybe that is the way to go. That is why I really need to see the mediums vs. the deeps in person. 

I love carpentry so even though the langstroth is harder to build, I think it would be a great experience.


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## sqkcrk

As you will when you come by. There is a lot to learn and experience. You don't have to make any hards and fast choices until you are ready to spend time and money planning on moving forward.


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## dfortune

" What I am not sure about is whether to do all mediums or go with a deep for the brood and then mediums for the rest "

I personally use all deeps. This is a matter of personal preference. But having different sized equipment on the same hive can be very frustrating.


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## mmmooretx

dfortune said:


> Advantages of 9/10 frames. More ventilation for healthier hive, the extra ventilation also helps to prevent swarming. Its easier to get the frames out than ten cause once everything gets propolized frames can get really tight. Less likely to kill queen removing frames. Also, they draw the cells out farther wich makes bigger bees in the brood chamber and easier to remove cappings in the honey supers.


Hmmm, I have to go up and buy some of the metal frame rests for my new deeps and med. supers I got from Country Rubes, wax dipped is very nice and the Shastina Millwork boxes are good workmanship. I may convert over to the 9/10 since I do not think the end frames are built up yet in all 4 of my active deeps. I may look for one of the 9 frame spacers too.


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## Intheswamp

Beelosopher, in regards to Langstroth hives the hive boxes from vendors *usually* are not much more expensive than it is to buy wood and cut your own. They also have the measurements down pretty well, the rabbet or box joints cut properly, the rabbet for the frame hangers, etc.,. The place to save money (and I know you're not too much worried about cost) is in the bottom boards and covers. Those don't need the somewhat precise cuts that the boxes require (though bee space still must be adhered to with top covers and to some degree bottom boards). 

This is my first full year of keeping bees and I'm in my mid-50's with a less that pristine back. I opted for all 8-frame medium hives and they seem to be working out well. My mentor has been keeping bees for a long time, he just turned 80. When I told him that I was going with the smaller boxes he stated that if he had it to do over again he'd go with the same. Just sayin'.... 

Best wishes, for now study, study, study. You'll figure out which direction to go in and the vehicle to take you there! 

Ed


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## mgolden

How does 9 frame in a 10 provide more ventilation???????? Cells are drawn deeper so only a bee space left between adjacent frames and walls, so same as 10. And technically one less vertical slot so less ventilation. And with bees covering all frames in a super, they will control air flow anyway.

Cells are deeper but no bigger in diameter, so I doubt bees are bigger.

10 frames of brood is more brood.

9 frames of honey is more than 10 frames because of cell depth and one less foundation.

Found adding metal rails on slide slot in ends of supers keeps propolis build up down.

Presently use all 10 frame deeps and full of honey is on the heavy side.

There is advantages to using all mediums or all deeps as frames can be moved up and down. Useful to get bees up above a queen excluder and can move honey to beef up winter stores.


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## Beelosopher

Another thing popped into my head. I am planning to go treatment free. Does either hive design beat the other for this? Any personal experience with this?


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## BeeCurious

Beelosopher said:


> Another thing popped into my head. I am planning to go treatment free. Does either hive design beat the other for this? Any personal experience with this?


Yes, from my previous post... small cell with narrow frames in eight frame boxes. You will have nine frames in the brood nest boxes. 

You might want to do some reading on Michael Bush's website.


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## dfortune

Mgolden, let me explain. With 9 frames in the brood chamber they draw it out more than ten but only to a certain extant as the brood cannot be reared in a cell that is too long. Therefore their is more space within the brood chamber. This reduces congestion and adds ventilation. Within the honey supers, you are correct, they draw out the cells as close as they would be in ten which makes them easier to uncap. Also, longer cells make longer bees. Why do you think queen breeders pick out the biggest queen cells. I dont make this stuff up.


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## mgolden

Longer bees????????????

9 frames doesn't make a lot of sense in brood supers when trying to get the population built up. 

If there is only a bee space between longer cells in a honey super, the air flow in the hive is than reduced to less area and technically less ventilation. And is irrelevant as bee modulate the air flow.


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## dfortune

Yeah, longer bees. You've never seen those short stubby ones walkin around? I think everyone knows 10 frames holds more brood than nine, which is why everyone uses two brood chambers. Never seen a queen stop at 1 deep, never seen one run out of room with 2.


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## dfortune

Ah ha! I found it! Well sort of. In the book abc and xyz of bee culture 34th edition on page 134-135, it states "Ursmar Baudoux,a belgian, in 1893 concieved the idea that larger cells could develop correspondingly larger bees with a longer tongue reach... By 1896 he apparently proved his theory so that a comb foundation manufacturer built a mill with enlarged cell bases. The results of the tests seemed to show not only larger bees, but a longer tongue reach and larger wings"

So a larger cell diameter does indeed make larger bees. The jury is still out wether longer cells will, but it makes sense to me and is the same principle.


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## Luterra

In case you haven't realized it, you are being offered two conflicting schools of thought on frame spacing.

1. Put 9 frames in a 10 frame box to improve ventilation and allow the bees to draw the cells out more, which may produce larger/longer bees.

2. Put 11 narrow frames in a 10 frame box (or 9 frames in an 8 frame box), with either small-cell foundation or no foundation. This will produce smaller bees, which some beekeepers believe provides an advantage against mites. 

I recommend sticking with standard frame spacing (10 frames in a 10-frame box or 8 in an 8-frame) to start with, unless you can find a good mentor who uses an alternative setup.

For whatever reason, beekeeping is less standardized than most modern agriculture, and it is quite common to see experienced, successful beekeepers practicing and promoting contradictory methods. Some of this has to do with regional differences, so I would encourage you to pay most attention to advice from nearby beekeepers, and to visit 3-5 bee yards in your area to see how the locals do things.

The treatment-free crowd is especially full of ideological differences, which arise as follows:
Beekeeper A is determined to be treatment-free, and experiments with a wide range of practices, hive designs, etc. Eventually she succeeds in reliably keeping bees on small-cell foundation in top bar hives, and quite logically concludes that this has something to do with survival. So she promotes this as a way to be treatment-free. Beekeeper B is also determined to be treatment free, but finds that his best survival occurs in triple-deep Langstroth hives with moisture quilts, so he promotes these changes as the best solutions. Both may be "correct", in a sense, in that both have developed bees that do well in a particular hive configuration and might not do as well in an alternative design.

I would encourage you not to commit to treatment-free in your first year or two. Maybe avoid chemicals that leave residues in wax, but be open to using the "standard" nosema (fumagilin) and mite (thymol, formic acid) treatments. I say this as a beekeeper who lost both of his hives in the first year. Going treatment-free means accepting higher losses for a few years, and if you have two hives "higher losses" may well mean you have no bees in spring. It's kind of like learning to swim. First you learn to float, then paddle, then eventually the butterfly. But if you tried to learn the butterfly first, you would struggle and probably sink, and you might give up on swimming as too hard. 

To add to my earlier comments, Langstroth hives allow you to harvest honey without destroying the comb, but only if you have access to a honey extractor. If you aren't planning to buy an extractor, you will need to crush and strain, in which case the Langstroth advantage is less apparent.

Mark


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## sqkcrk

So many of you are writing about 9 frames in a ten frame box and I just wanted to point out that my understanding is that this practice, where it may be something folks do in their brood chambers, the practice as I was taught was developed for use primarily in honey supers, not brood supers, so honey could be extracted from deeper combs. The idea being that in fact one can get more honey from 9 deep celled combs than one can get from ten combs not as deep celled.

I do quite often run 9 frames in my ten frame deeps, but they are not spaced but tight together. Logically deep celled combs would produce longer bees, but I don't know that this is actually so. Nor do I believe that queen rearers really select long bodied queens so they can lay in deep celled combs. An interesting idea, but I don't know if it is true or not.


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## Beelosopher

Luterra - Since I don't have a mentor, nor do I know anyone in the bee keeping world aside from those folks who posted on this forum... Maybe I need to stick with the basics to get going, and keep reading to see if I am slick enough to spearhead a new or newer technique. I think that will be a bit before I am that confident haha Perhaps I should first get used to the bees  

That is the tough part about starting out. You don't know what you don't know (a bit Yogi like, but you get my point). The key for me is putting bees in a hive and learning from them, and not taking too much from them. Of course with a simple question comes thousands of complex ways to answer it 

All this and I still haven't even figured out where I will be getting bees


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## mgolden

I agree that going standard and learning the basics first is very sound advice. There is a lot to learn and hard to learn until its hands on.

Think you will find on this site and elsewhere promoting 8 or 10 frames in a corrresponding deep sized brood box is the advice of some very experienced beekeepers.

Just wondering if bigger bees and longer bees produce more honey than short fat bees?????????


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## xcugat

I guess its a bit late to enter this thread but if I were you I would start with 10 to 8 frame langstroth hives with frames and foundation. This in my experience is the easiest for beginners who are just trying to even get familar with beekeeping. I would *not* get involved with foundationless, small cell, top bar or even GASP treatement free for the first year or two at least. Find a good mentor and have them help you along, but remember start with the standard methods and learn rules before you try to break them with some of the alternative techniques mentioned in this thread--I know some here would disagree with me, but I think having someone have their bees live for a few seasons rather than combating all issues at once and having them perish is better for a new bee.

Also with 2 acres you can have plenty of hives--we have 3/4 of an acre here with 7 hives and no problems as long as you manage them properly


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## mmmooretx

xcugat said:


> I guess its a bit late to enter this thread but if I were you I would start with 10 to 8 frame langstroth hives with frames and foundation. This in my experience is the easiest for beginners who are just trying to even get familar with beekeeping.
> ...~...
> Also with 2 acres you can have plenty of hives--we have 3/4 of an acre here with 7 hives and no problems as long as you manage them properly


I think this is good for me. My lot is on 1/3 acre, but I back up to a large area, 3-400' before a railroad track (buried pipelines) and will not go over 5 hives as I have to register as an apiary with the state and I am sure my HOA would go nuts (business & all). Besides I think 5 is a good limit for my lot and what I want to do.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

If you are not planning to stay in bees, go 10 frame so you can sell easier. If you plan on buying used equipment go 10 frame.

I guess I am against the grain. While everyone else is going 8 fame, I have started changing over to 13 frame, (a square hive., not rectangular.) I make all my own, don't plan on selling, and I don't care what happens to it when I am gone, I will be 70 years old in May, but I do not have any trouble manipulating them. Only one deep for brood, and two shallows are more than three 8 frame shallows. Less equipment, less height.

cchoganjr


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## dfortune

I can definitely see the advantages with 13 frames, but wow! That must weigh nearly a hundred pounds full of honey.


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## kilocharlie

One thing that may have escaped you guys using 9 frames in a 10-frame box is that the 11 narrowed, 1 1/4" wide frames go in the brood box with 4.9mm cell size foundation to get more bees and less mites, and the 9 frames go in the honey supers in order to draw the same amount of honey in fewer frames. If the honey supers are made foundationless, the bees will draw out what looks like drone comb, but is actually sized for storing honey, larger than worker cells, but almost as big as drone cells. Not too bad a setup, really. I would happily buy such a rig.


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## odfrank

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> I guess I am against the grain. While everyone else is going 8 fame, I have started changing over to 13 frame, (a square hive., not rectangular.) cchoganjr


I hope I wasn't the bad influence on you.


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## Beelosopher

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> If you are not planning to stay in bees, go 10 frame so you can sell easier. If you plan on buying used equipment go 10 frame.
> 
> I guess I am against the grain. While everyone else is going 8 fame, I have started changing over to 13 frame, (a square hive., not rectangular.) I make all my own, don't plan on selling, and I don't care what happens to it when I am gone, I will be 70 years old in May, but I do not have any trouble manipulating them. Only one deep for brood, and two shallows are more than three 8 frame shallows. Less equipment, less height.
> 
> cchoganjr


Hello Cleo - I was the guy who emailed you recently about the ash tree with bees in it - thanks for the info and help!

Don't get me wrong, I want to stay in bees, not looking to resell before I start 

However it looks like apple trees now days. Filled with pesticides to get pretty fruit due to all the pest dammage. Well at least with my apple trees the ugly apples get pressed and make great cider. With the bees they die and you are left with nothing except a feeling of failure. 

I don't take this hobby lightly, so I want to set myself up with good tools, good knowledge in the hopes that I can make a treatment free situation work. It is intimidating reading all the loses of hives people have as a new guy.


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## psfred

Standard Langstroth equipment is probably the best for starting out. TBHs can get to be a real pain unless you hounddog them all the time, they weren't developed for best beekeeping practice, but instead to provide the least costly means of maintaining hives. Langs have great advantages, particularly honey production and ease of management.

If you have the equipment (table saw with dado blade) and skill, you can make your own boxes easily, but you will really only save the cost of shipping pre-cut boxes. For me that's a large sum, almost doubles the cost, but if you can pick them up you won't save much. Lots of fun though.

Boxes are permanent for the most part. lasting decades with minimal care, so they should not be a huge expense. Frames are cheap, but again if you have a garage full of odds and ends wood like I do, and shop at the box stores in the scrap pile, they aren't all that hard to make and it's fun.

I make my own bottom boards (screened) and top covers, and those are MUCH cheaper than purchased. 3/8" plywood, some 1 x 4 and a few hours and I can knock out several. I like them much better than plastic, I cover them with aluminum flashing. 

You will also need good paint or other permanent outdoor wood treatment to keep the boxes from rotting at the joints. Any color will do, you can probably pick up a gallon of off-tint at the box store for $5. Likely only loud pink (which seems to be the only color I ever find there) but the bees won't care.

You probably won't need a bee suit -- a veil and long sleeves and pants works for me. Do watch bending over and squeezing bees between your belly and belt, they will sting you even if they don't want to! Ditto for letting them crawl up a pant leg! A nice smoker will last you a lifetime, in fact a cheapo will last a lifetime if it's all metal but the bellows.

Peter


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## Jamesfarms

8 frame and all mediums.


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## Harley Craig

I have been following this thread, and I too am just starting out and will get my first bees next spring. I have built a top bar hive, and have been thinking about a lang type hive as well to compare. This thread has gotten me very interested in 8 frame mediums. I have been looking at western bee supply ( which seems to be the most reasonable on wooden ware that i've found) I see hive bodies in 8 or 10 but they don't say medium or deep then they have supers in 3 different sizes.I would like to go foundationless, what exactly would I need to order?


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## tsmullins

Harley Craig said:


> I would like to go foundationless, what exactly would I need to order?


The brood/super boxes come in three sizes, deep, medium and shallow. Th exact depth I don't remember, but you can google the depth of the boxes. The medium sized box will be the one you want if you want to run mediums. To be safe, just call and tell them you want to run mediums, and they will be sure to get you the right sized box. 

Since you want to go foundationless, pretty much any medium frame will do. You might want to get some wire, or fishing line, to add some strength. I would suggest you look at tthe Mann Lake PF120 frames. They provide small cell size, and might be really nice for a beginner to get started on. 

Shane


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## psfred

Hive bodies are deeps in beekeeper talk most of the time, so I'm sure that Western means deeps. You want medium supers which you will use as hive bodies instead of deeps.

I personally prefer wedge style frames with divided bottom bars since it's easy to flip the wedge sideways and make a nice comb guide and if you do use wired foundation (which I also recommend) it stays put. You can use whatever suits you, there are several styles, but make sure you get the correct foundation for the frames you are using, else it won't fit.

Wire all frames -- the bees will build the comb around the wires just fine. Some people like to use nylon fishing line instead, and that's OK too, but I DO recommend wires, especially with wired foundation. Otherwise, it ALWAYS sags since the vertical wires are bent (they come on a roll and keep some curve when the foundation is rolled). Flat comb is much nicer, believe me. It is much less likely that you will drop comb out of the frame with wire, too, and extracting is safer, although I have to say we have not blown out a comb in the seven years we've been involved this time around, and I don't remember my grandpa saying anything about it either even when I cranked the extractor too fast.

I don't recommend putting bees in a hive with only foundationless frames, it can take quite a while to persuade them to put the comb where you want it instead of where they want it -- in cold damp weather they are as likely to build it across the frames as along them, wanting "cold way" comb to cut down on airflow.

I would recommend starting with at least 4 frames of foundation, then putting an empty frame between fully drawn and capped comb as the hive expands. It's more work, but you will get better comb. Then, when you add another box, pull up two drawn frames with an empty between, put the empties where the drawn ones were, etc and you will be fine.

Otherwise you get a mess. I've got some problems in one hive I will have to fix next spring where the bees only partially drew a foundationless frame out, and extended the comb at the bottom from the sides bridging it together. I didn't want to go cutting comb up when I was trying to get them up to weight for winter, so I'll fix it in the spring when they will be drawing comb like crazy. I left them empty since I ran out of foundation, should have moved them between capped comb but I got busy.

You should be prepared to get a significant amount of drone comb on the first few foundationless frames. Move this to a location a couple frames in, at the edge of the brood nest, when you can. That way the bees can use it to make drones when they want them and not put them between boxes and in the honey supers, which is what they do otherwise.

Have fun, beekeeping is great, especially when you get to extract you first full super of honey!

Peter


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## Harley Craig

tsmullins said:


> The brood/super boxes come in three sizes, deep, medium and shallow. Th exact depth I don't remember, but you can google the depth of the boxes. The medium sized box will be the one you want if you want to run mediums. To be safe, just call and tell them you want to run mediums, and they will be sure to get you the right sized box.
> 
> Since you want to go foundationless, pretty much any medium frame will do. You might want to get some wire, or fishing line, to add some strength. I would suggest you look at tthe Mann Lake PF120 frames. They provide small cell size, and might be really nice for a beginner to get started on.
> 
> Shane


Thanks, wont the wires make cut comb hard to accomplish?


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## Harley Craig

psfred said:


> Hive bodies are deeps in beekeeper talk most of the time, so I'm sure that Western means deeps. You want medium supers which you will use as hive bodies instead of deeps.
> 
> I personally prefer wedge style frames with divided bottom bars since it's easy to flip the wedge sideways and make a nice comb guide and if you do use wired foundation (which I also recommend) it stays put. You can use whatever suits you, there are several styles, but make sure you get the correct foundation for the frames you are using, else it won't fit.
> 
> Wire all frames -- the bees will build the comb around the wires just fine. Some people like to use nylon fishing line instead, and that's OK too, but I DO recommend wires, especially with wired foundation. Otherwise, it ALWAYS sags since the vertical wires are bent (they come on a roll and keep some curve when the foundation is rolled). Flat comb is much nicer, believe me. It is much less likely that you will drop comb out of the frame with wire, too, and extracting is safer, although I have to say we have not blown out a comb in the seven years we've been involved this time around, and I don't remember my grandpa saying anything about it either even when I cranked the extractor too fast.
> 
> I don't recommend putting bees in a hive with only foundationless frames, it can take quite a while to persuade them to put the comb where you want it instead of where they want it -- in cold damp weather they are as likely to build it across the frames as along them, wanting "cold way" comb to cut down on airflow.
> 
> I would recommend starting with at least 4 frames of foundation, then putting an empty frame between fully drawn and capped comb as the hive expands. It's more work, but you will get better comb. Then, when you add another box, pull up two drawn frames with an empty between, put the empties where the drawn ones were, etc and you will be fine.
> 
> Otherwise you get a mess. I've got some problems in one hive I will have to fix next spring where the bees only partially drew a foundationless frame out, and extended the comb at the bottom from the sides bridging it together. I didn't want to go cutting comb up when I was trying to get them up to weight for winter, so I'll fix it in the spring when they will be drawing comb like crazy. I left them empty since I ran out of foundation, should have moved them between capped comb but I got busy.
> 
> You should be prepared to get a significant amount of drone comb on the first few foundationless frames. Move this to a location a couple frames in, at the edge of the brood nest, when you can. That way the bees can use it to make drones when they want them and not put them between boxes and in the honey supers, which is what they do otherwise.
> 
> Have fun, beekeeping is great, especially when you get to extract you first full super of honey!
> 
> Peter


Thanks for the heads up! Never thought about them building comb across the bars is that common? , If I only put foundation in one frame, wouldn't that get them going in the right direction?


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## cerezha

Hello everyone. Very sweet subject, could not resist! Well, I am completing my first year and feel I have something to share. First, couple of general comments:
- for beginner it is absolutely essential to have all equipment of the same type/size. If it is 8-frame medium Lang - everything should be the same size. It is very important to be able to interchange frames, boxes etc. 
- Even if you are planning to be small, plan to have a few extra boxes if it is Lang or Warre. If TB, it should be build keeping in mind the need to grow (longer). You also need to have extra frames etc.
- it is really bad idea to have hives of different design/type/size - decide first and than stuck to one type.

Now, the hot subject "Lang or not Lang"! I have my personal opinion on this:
- there are number of different beehive designs other than Lang. All of them are doing very well in other places. It is only US crazy about Lang. The biggest advantage of the Lang is its universal dimensions - all hardware with small limitations are interchangeable. Because of universal dimensions,it is convenient for commercial beekeeping. 
- Now,we have two principal designs: vertical and horizontal. 
- Vertical permits expansion of the hive easily by adding additional boxes; vertical beehives normally manipulated by the box - remove, add the box; how many boxes big the hive... There are two major problems with this design: (1) boxes are heavy; (2) rearranging the boxes requires to break hive apart, which some people believe is too much intrusion for the bees. Thus, Warre design with minimal intrusion, but it is still necessary to move heavy boxes. 
- Horizontal design have deal with the frame (bar). Frames/bars may be easily added, moved etc without breaking apart the whole hive. Many believed that this is more bee-friendly approach. Once nest is growing, additional frames may be added. Specific horizontal colony management provides ways for swarm management and honey collection. It is debated which design is more "natural" - vertical or horizontal. It is my understanding that in nature both, standing and horizontal logs used by bees. In fact, many traditional old beehives have a horizontal design, horizontal log basically.
- At the level of "frame" one need to choose between foundation-foundationless and frame-frameless. Traditionally, foundation is used in combination with the frame. Foundation is supposed to accelerate the comb making process (debatable). It is well documented that wax accumulates chemicals used to treat beehives. Recycling the wax as it often happens in commercial beekeeping would accumulate chemicals in the reclaimed wax. Thus, more people is interested in foundationless approach when bees create their own comb. Foundationless is less suitable to commercial approach, centrifugal honey extraction in particular. "Standard" frame is a part of Lang's beehive. Other beehives have other standards. Many horizontal beehives used only top bar.


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## sqkcrk

Not disagreeing w/ Sergey just to be disagreeable, but, for well over hundred of years beekeepers have kept bees in two deep hive bodies for brood chambers and some other size box, shallows, mediums, Illionois Deeps, Westerns, comb honey supers, cut comb supers or whatever, and done so quite well and successfully. So, even though standard sizes of boxes is a good idea, in the horizontal dimension, the vertical depth of boxes is a choice one might aught to make depending on what one can lift.

One need not keep a hive of bees in 3 mediums, plus medium honey supers. Or two deeps and the honey supers. You could go to all shallows if that suits you. Personally, I feel that the larger the comb available to a queen the easier it is for her to lay a pattern w/out breaking the space.

I don't know that it really matters, it's just something I feel. Mr. Dadant felt so too at one time, therefore the Jumbo Dadant supers and frames. Which were too large, heavy, and cumbersome to move, so they didn't fit those wishing to move hives. One has to fit the equipment to themselves, the beekeeper and let the bees tell you whether it suits them.

There is no real answer to the Thread Title Question. There is only personal preference and experience. I hope you aren't overloaded to the point you can't make a decision. Maybe you should join a club and visit other beekeepers and see their equipment.


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## mmmooretx

sqkcrk said:


> There is no real answer to the Thread Title Question. There is only personal preference and experience. I hope you aren't overloaded to the point you can't make a decision. Maybe you should join a club and visit other beekeepers and see their equipment.


I am a first year newbee so only my view. My Lang. hives originally were all wood frame plasticell, which the bees built on nicely. I have 3 10 frame hives with box hardware for 2 deeps per hive and 2 med. supers per hive. In hindsight yes the 8 frame boxes are lighter, yes I can convert $$ issue only as the frames will migrate. Full deeps are heavy and harder to lift than 8 frame med. supers. I have also started putting in the Walter Kelley foundationless frames and have made some groove top & bottom frames foundationless with 1/16" plywood both are being drawn out by the bees. Foundationless is more fragile and higher risk in an extractor (mine have no wires or monofillament). Med. supers like mine can be cut into comb blocks or cut and strain. You will need to place empty foundationless between filled frames to keep from getting cross comb issues. I have placed one between two non drawn plasticell frames and they filled the space from the foundationless guide to the edge of the empty plasticell foundation in the next frame.
Basically my brief experienced has shown me that the bees will build on any of the available options beeks have. As I will probably always be10 hives or less I do not have to worry about standardization for my extraction process like commercial ventures are driven to for economic reasons. If I was going to start again I would probably go with the 8 frame boxes and med. supers as a standard size, but will stick with what I have for now. Spring I will also start two Top Bar Hives from Honey Bee Habitat since their bars are designed to fit in the standard Lang. hives (good to start comb before putting your package bees in the TBH).
May the Force be with you. The bees will teach you.


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## Beelosopher

sqkcrk said:


> Not disagreeing w/ Sergey just to be disagreeable, but, for well over hundred of years beekeepers have kept bees in two deep hive bodies for brood chambers and some other size box, shallows, mediums, Illionois Deeps, Westerns, comb honey supers, cut comb supers or whatever, and done so quite well and successfully. So, even though standard sizes of boxes is a good idea, in the horizontal dimension, the vertical depth of boxes is a choice one might aught to make depending on what one can lift.
> 
> One need not keep a hive of bees in 3 mediums, plus medium honey supers. Or two deeps and the honey supers. You could go to all shallows if that suits you. Personally, I feel that the larger the comb available to a queen the easier it is for her to lay a pattern w/out breaking the space.
> 
> I don't know that it really matters, it's just something I feel. Mr. Dadant felt so too at one time, therefore the Jumbo Dadant supers and frames. Which were too large, heavy, and cumbersome to move, so they didn't fit those wishing to move hives. One has to fit the equipment to themselves, the beekeeper and let the bees tell you whether it suits them.
> 
> There is no real answer to the Thread Title Question. There is only personal preference and experience. I hope you aren't overloaded to the point you can't make a decision. Maybe you should join a club and visit other beekeepers and see their equipment.


Indeed there are lots of choices out there and plenty of opinions as well. Fortunately I recently had an opportunity to lift some of the 10 lang deeps and mediums filled. They are heavy, but manageable for me. Right now I am concerned about any impact smaller frames might have on a cluster for winter. A lot of northern operations tend to run a two deep hive body set up as Mark states. I wonder if this helps the bees survive winters better.

So right now despite all the opinions I am working towards my equipment. And man I nearly have it  Right now I am set on 10 frame langs. The only thing I haven't decided on is whether I will incorporate the two deep + several medium super configuration or run with all mediums. 

I am still looking for a more local bee club but found one an hour plus away. Luckily I have been able to meet up with one local bee keeper (whom I am very appreciative of) to at least get some perspective. Hopefully I will be able to visit with you Mark in the spring. 

One thing is clear to me (since I am hoping/planning to go treatment free). I will likely be in the game of making my own nucs to help survive losses while I work towards a stable population of treatment free bees. This means to me that having interchangeable frames will be very handy. So that gives me a couple options:

1. Use only deeps for hive body brood chambers and nucs(medium supers)
2. Go all mediums, including the brood chambers and nucs


A second issue with the deeps is that if I go foundationless (my hope/plan), deeps might be a bit more fragile to handle. This may mean I have to choose between foundations and deeps or mediums and foundationless. 


Great dialogue with many of the new posters. Although there isn't a right answer to the question I posed. I am reaping the benefits of each of your personal experiences, as are others who read this thread. Thank you.


one side question. I have heard people reference foundationless frames for 10 langs that are "wedge with divided bottom". I am trying to find something like that in the catalog I have from dadant but am failing to do so. Is this more of a custom type frame or am I just missing the boat? i.e. if some one had a picture of one of this style I would love to see it.


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## BeeCurious

One "impact" of using medium frames is that the bees can cross over frames more easily, at least that is my understanding.

I believe WT Kelley is making the frames you're interested in.


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## Beeophyte

I keep 10 frame langs (deeps and shallows) and Warré Hives. This winter I've decided to switch all but one Warré to 8 frame mediums.

For me it's simply about compatibility my local bee friends are both running 8 frame mediums and I really like them. I keep the Warré because it's an enjoyable hive to keep and I like to compare it to my Langs.


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## mmmooretx

Beelosopher said:


> one side question. I have heard people reference foundationless frames for 10 langs that are "wedge with divided bottom". I am trying to find something like that in the catalog I have from dadant but am failing to do so. Is this more of a custom type frame or am I just missing the boat? i.e. if some one had a picture of one of this style I would love to see it.


I have bought frames, both assembled and disassembled, from Dadant, WT Kelley, and Brushy Mountain. From the BM on line catalog for un-assembled frames you have two types of tops and two types of bottoms. The tops are grooved or wedge top. The wedge top has a break out piece that is rectangular that is used to hold the wired wax foundation. The wired wax foundation wires are bent over at 90 degrees at the top so you put the wedge piece back where you broke it out with the bent wires at the top. In effect it acts like a coat hanger holding up the wax foundation so it does not slip down. On the bottoms the divided has the cut slot going all the way through where the grooved botom only goes part way through. You use the grooved top and bottom for plasticell as you just bend it to pop it in place, and it has enough rigidity to not collapse. The divided bottom allows for minor differences in wax length to not cause a bow in the wired wax foundation. There are other combinations but it is easiest to understand by watching some videos on YouTube.


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## BeeCurious

https://kelleybees.com/Products/Detail/?id=3336333533363333&grouped=1


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## mmmooretx

BeeCurious, My girls have been drawing out the WTK foundationless deep frames wonderfully. I think I got 20 of them and have 10 installed with 4 fully drawn out in 3 hives. I think two are mostly honey and two are almost exclusive brood. The rest are in progress and doing well.


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## cerezha

sqkcrk said:


> ...Personally, I feel that the larger the comb available to a queen the easier it is for her to lay a pattern w/out breaking the space...


 I completely agree. I have the same feeling - bigger frame in the nest should provide less interruption for the bees. In fact, old Russian beehives had a large frames covering the entire nest - they winter in one box. But from inexperienced beekeeper-beginner point of view, it seems to me that the existence of different size hardware makes life difficult. For instance, historically it was happened that one of my beehive is all 10-frame Lang mediums and another is in 10-frame deep. So, having only two beehives I must have two sets of everything - frames, boxes... I have just two beehives and literally half of garage of hardware... I personally * prefer* deeps, but for the sake of simplicity, for beginners with 2-3 beehives, I would, probably, recommend a medium 10-frame Lang, since it is most universal.

Following the beekeepers tradition to make plural answers on any single question, I would like to add more to the pot. In principle, I would prefer the top-bar hive (TBH). I think that for amateur beekeeping it is best suitable for many reasons: fun to make own hardware, small initial investment into hardware, more direct "communication" with bees, less invasive, no foundation, no extractor, more "natural" etc. But, bees dictate what they needed. In my case, they completely denied to be in TBH. They wanted to be in the deep Lang box! They ignored medium as well. So, what to do? After quite a bit of research on the Internet, I find a compromise between Lang design and horizontal hive since I love TBH (and bees are not!). It's basically two-Langs long deep box accommodating 20 standard frames. It is huge and not movable. The idea is to let bees expand horizontally assuming that 20 deep frames enough for even VERY large nest. It also may be expanded vertically by adding standard Lang mediums on the top (1 medium or 2 side-by-side or even more). I spent a whole weekend making this box - it looks actually cool and is much better to my conditions - I would prefer something flat rather than tall - we are in earthquakes zone. The advantage of this "horizontal Lang" is that it may be managed in similar to TBHs way until placing supers on top. With supers - it is basically funny Lang with all advantages and disadvantages. Once supers removed it is manageable in TBH fashion again (preparation for winter etc.) Wish me luck - I hope my girls would like it! The problem is that it is very difficult to experiment having only two beehives... Sergey


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## mmmooretx

Hey Sergey,
Do earthquakes make the bees cranky?


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## cerezha

mmmooretx said:


> Hey Sergey,
> Do earthquakes make the bees cranky?


 Mike,
my bees are cranky most of the time... at some degree... I guess,they have the same nightmares as I am - that 6 mediums tall hive will collapse and roll down the hill... I think, at this point, the direction is different, what bees would do and what I shall do... I need to prepare emergency bee-plan.


----------



## mmmooretx

cerezha said:


> Mike,
> my bees are cranky most of the time... at some degree... I guess,they have the same nightmares as I am - that 6 mediums tall hive will collapse and roll down the hill... I think, at this point, the direction is different, what bees would do and what I shall do... I need to prepare emergency bee-plan.


Sergey,
That is quite a skyscraper! I have been following a bunch of your posts, especially the ones with pictures of your honey frames. 9 more days and I am going to order two of the Honey Bee Habitat TBHs. Mainly because their price is right and the top bars will fit into a standard Lang., which is good for a start of the comb. 5 April is the earliest I can get my package bees from BeeWeaver, orders some time this month according to Laura Weaver. My splits are doing well and should be built up for winter, 3 hives are taking 25 lbs. of sugar with HBH & Amino B a week 1:1. I will try to take some pictures this weekend during my thorough inspection. I also came up with an update to my frame perch to hold frames at a slight angle for picture taking, it will hold deeps or med. frames at a slight angle ~20 degrees. I am hoping it is not too much for foundation less that is not attached on the sides or bottom yet.
News at 11...
Later


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## Beelosopher

mmmooretx said:


> I have bought frames, both assembled and disassembled, from Dadant, WT Kelley, and Brushy Mountain. From the BM on line catalog for un-assembled frames you have two types of tops and two types of bottoms. The tops are grooved or wedge top. The wedge top has a break out piece that is rectangular that is used to hold the wired wax foundation. The wired wax foundation wires are bent over at 90 degrees at the top so you put the wedge piece back where you broke it out with the bent wires at the top. In effect it acts like a coat hanger holding up the wax foundation so it does not slip down. On the bottoms the divided has the cut slot going all the way through where the grooved botom only goes part way through. You use the grooved top and bottom for plasticell as you just bend it to pop it in place, and it has enough rigidity to not collapse. The divided bottom allows for minor differences in wax length to not cause a bow in the wired wax foundation. There are other combinations but it is easiest to understand by watching some videos on YouTube.



Thank you for the explanation it made a lot of sense once i saw the video comparison. What would we do without you tube? 

It looks like they have a separate frame type for foundationless on the link beecurious referenced too. Has anyone used that type? They call them a beveled top and solid bottom board (Medium F-style frames 6-1/4" x 17-5/8")

I could see that if you used foundation and your sheets were perfectly cut the slotted top and bottom would be quick and easy install. However the wedge and divided bottom would be easier if your sheets were a little off in size.

BeeCurious thanks for the link on the frame types.


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## Beelosopher

This is actually a pretty good video using what looks like the beveled frame with the solid bottom. 

I think this is really cool too because it looks like this guy is using foundationless for deeps with success (he just wires them for support). I wasn't sure if the bees would build comb down with that wire present. It looks like they do according to this guy. If anyone has had luck with this please let me know too. I think I want to aspire to foundationless, and still haven't decided for or against using deeps for the hive body because I wasn't sure if they would have enough support.


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## mmmooretx

Beelosopher said:


> Thank you for the explanation it made a lot of sense once i saw the video comparison. What would we do without you tube?
> 
> It looks like they have a separate frame type for foundationless on the link beecurious referenced too. Has anyone used that type? They call them a beveled top and solid bottom board (Medium F-style frames 6-1/4" x 17-5/8")
> 
> I could see that if you used foundation and your sheets were perfectly cut the slotted top and bottom would be quick and easy install. However the wedge and divided bottom would be easier if your sheets were a little off in size.
> 
> BeeCurious thanks for the link on the frame types.


I have built around 20 med. and 10 deep. Only the top bar is different with the triangular guide instead of the grooved or wedge. The bottom is a solid, as a style difference. The end pieces are the standard (always 3 sizes deep, med., or shallow) but the F type is foundation less.

Edit: 48 second 2 foundation less frame video, WTK type:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_uFntBZDWU&feature=youtu.be


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## Beelosopher

mmmooretx said:


> but the F type is foundation less.


yes exactly. The F-type would be the one I am most interested in since it is foundationless. People must have been commenting on liking the other type since they were using foundation. 

Being a new guy, I hadn't realized that there were multiple frame types. I thought they were pretty much the same bones and you decided to put foundation, or not in them. Based on that you might put in a beveled piece (If no foundation) or just leave as it is and attach the foundation.

While I have seen bee equipment the frames were always already drawn out so I never saw how they were constructed.


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## kilocharlie

Beelosopher - I will be converting all my deeps to mediums in the next 3 years, as I am inheriting a good number of medium frames. It is a simple table saw operation, but I plane the tops flat first. I then re-establish the depth of the frame-hanging rabbets with a router to .700", then chisel the corners carefully. I check the box for squareness, then I set the table saw ripping gate at 6 5/8" and cut all four sides down to medium Illinois size. Then I get out the good, ol' sanding block.

It is a good idea to use your branding iron in a place that does not get modified, if you have not branded yet.

10-frame boxes can also be cut into 8-frame boxes, but it is not so simple. The method I have used for this is to remove any cleat handles, lay out a cutting path on the short ends with two notches on one side and two tabs on the other. The cross-cuts must leave the long part of each half, the notches are drilled and cut after sawing the box in half. The finished, re-sized box must be 8-frame dimensions. That's [the right edge to the tab] + [the left edge to the notch] = 13 3/8" outside dimension (assuming 3/4" lumber - some 8-frames are different sized). I drill and nail vertically from the top and from the bottom to keep the thing connected while the glue dries. I clamp with wax paper-wrapped guide planks. Last, I add new cleat handles, glued and screwed from the inside.

So you can start off with one style and make it into another later, and 3 colonies are not too many to modify. I'm modifying 80 boxes from 10-frame deeps to 10-frame mediums, and will be making frames like crazy most of my free time, and phasing out the deep combs over 2 or 3 years. I hope my shoulder improves so I don't have to go to 8-frame equipment ever (I really love my 5-use, 10-frame mediums), but time and age march on, and we do not get any younger, and 40 lbs is easier to lift than 50 lbs....

I started out with deeps because I wanted a quick start in the business and wanted to get as much bee resources as I could for less work. Now it is time to do the rest of the work on making 3 mediums where I used to use 2 deeps. My shoulders, back, and knees are telling me I should'a dunnit last year! Oh, and BTW, the leftover wood rectangles can be used to make inner cover rims, Cloake boards, screened bottom boards, escape boards, even more supers (if you are meticulous), double screen boards, pollen traps, etc., etc., etc....why waste wood?


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## Beelosopher

Thanks kilocharlie! Good advice. 

I think in a perfect world mediums would be ideal. I just wasn't just if deeps tended to work better of overwintering (fewer air gaps to cross).

Part of me wants to just run and grab all medium 10 langs.


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## BeeCurious

Beelosopher said:


> Thanks kilocharlie! Good advice.
> 
> I think in a perfect world mediums would be ideal. I just wasn't just if deeps tended to work better of overwintering (fewer air gaps to cross).
> 
> Part of me wants to just run and grab all medium 10 langs.


The "air gaps" are what allows the bees to cross over to a frame of honey more easily ...

You asked what size boxes would be nice for a hobbyist. Some hobbyists replied.

Medium eight frame boxes are popular with a lot of people.


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## Beelosopher

BeeCurious said:


> The "air gaps" are what allows the bees to cross over to a frame of honey more easily ...
> 
> You asked what size boxes would be nice for a hobbyist. Some hobbyists replied.
> 
> Medium eight frame boxes are popular with a lot of people.


My concern with the medium 8's is they tend to be less prevalent. I also thought (intuitively) that a larger box allows for more bees to potentially cluster in (increased chance of survival). Is that thinking way off?

Also, many northern beekeepers seem to like the 2 deep and 1 medium overwintering configuration. I am trying to find out if there is a reason for that.

A local bee guy I am talking to uses all mediums (not the 8 frame though). I am going to ask him some questions since I think he used to use the 10 frame deeps. I just ahven't had the chnce


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## cerezha

Hi Mike
Many thanks for your respond! I think, ability to switch frames between Land-type and TBH is very convenient. Please, take a pictures and post! I think, pictures sometime are speaking better than we are. This "skyscraper"... I was trying to replace the box with old quite disorganized comb by inserting a new box in the middle of the nest. In accordance to "rules" bees supposed to move into new box and abandon the lover box to keep nest integer. Well, my bees are something - they occupied ALL boxes and refused to move out of the old semi-decomposed original box... So, every time, I am trying to reduce the "skyscraper" I ended up adding additional box... I guess, I am not managing my bees enough. Good luck with your bees - it sounded your girls are getting ready to the winter! Sergey


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## BeeCurious

Bees seem to make better use of eight frame boxes from what I've read.

You have the advantage of buying exactly what you want. If I followed the leaders of a local club I wouldn't have any of my current equipment, and I certainly wouldn't be using small cell. And I suspect that I would be using whatever treatment is popular at the club... 

Searching the archives might provide you with more information.


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## cerezha

BeeCurious said:


> ... If I followed the leaders of a local club I wouldn't have any of my current equipment, and I certainly wouldn't be using small cell. And I suspect that I would be using whatever treatment is popular at the club...


 Absolutely true - I basically did everything against bee-club experts opinion and bees are doing very well. It is amusing, how people sometime .... mmmmm... inflexible... first thing they suggested was to re-queen since my queen was (and is!) feral... than - treat-treat and treat! I have to admit, nevertheless, I learned from them, but it was difficult learning curve because people just get offended if you do not follow their exact directions... 
So, I managed to keep feral/survival bees.They are treatment free, foundation-free, frame-free (top bar). Based on beehive size and amount of honey - they are doing extremely well! We (me and bees), basically finished the cycle - I inherit them 1 year ago. But I knew these bees for at least 2 or 3 more years. Feral/survival bees are living withing 20 feet from my house in heavily populated urban area. They are workaholics. They are protective, but we do find a ways to coexist (minimal management, invasion). They produce a beautiful honey - enough for our family and all my friends and relatives (and neighbors!). I very hope that we could continue in the same direction.


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## kilocharlie

Beelosopher -
You are likely on to something very real - 2 deep frames being a better way in boreal climates due to fewer air gaps than 3 mediums...that really ought to be studied (if it hasn't already), as well as wide hives vs. tall hives in cold country, probably the underlying issue of cluster size-to-dead air space ratio as well. William Broughton Carr's hive design was 14 frames wide, 19 7/8" x 19 7/8" square, and 9 5/8" deep. He designed it for northern England. It is a good cold country hive design. I'm building one for show-and-tell, and testing.

Three things are clear: 1)large colonies with large stores of pollen and honey tend to survive severe winters; 2) colonies that don't have too much dead space to heat make more efficient use of stores; 3) hive management has more to do with success than hive design.


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## Beelosopher

BeeCurious said:


> Bees seem to make better use of eight frame boxes from what I've read.
> 
> You have the advantage of buying exactly what you want. If I followed the leaders of a local club I wouldn't have any of my current equipment, and I certainly wouldn't be using small cell. And I suspect that I would be using whatever treatment is popular at the club...
> 
> Searching the archives might provide you with more information.


Could you post some of the links for this and/or the sources? I would appreciate it.

my choice of 10 langs isn't follow the flock (nor is my choice to go treatment free, foundationless, etc.). It is from what many people (on this thread who are hobby beekeepers) have recommended, and what I am learning about how I will ahve to potentially maintain nucs. It is an informed decision. I also assume a bigger box allows for a bigger cluster, thus less open air gaps and thus better wintering condition/survival as kilo charlie suggested. I don't know if that is proven, just a conclusion I came to considering a winter for bees.


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## psfred

10 frame Langs work pretty well, are small enough to manage and large enough to produce good honey crops. There are larger and smaller designs, but they are all basically the same. Bees want about a 20 gallon space with a bottom entrance that is fairly regular in shape, just about two 10 frame Lang deeps.

The original design was deeper and square, holding 12 frames, and made of double wall glass to insulate. Needless to say, that's not exactly convenient if you have to MOVE it, it might be fine if permanently placed. There are some people on this board who run large hive bodies, do a search. 

The ten frame Lang should probably be a bit shorter (closer to square) for better hive utilization -- the cluster would fit better, the bees would have less dead air space on the ends of the frames, and it would be a bit lighter -- but it works well and nearly all 10 frame Lang equipment interchanges. Not a bad compromise.

I still think I might build a Dadant Deep this winter and try it out just for fun, but I'm just a hobbyist, I can do whatever I want with little trouble. Experimenting can be lots of extra work when you have hundreds of hives.

Peter


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## Beelosopher

Since all of you guys have been so helpful I was wondering if you could give me your opinions on a deal I just received to get two hives before the winter.

So I don't get the thread off track I created *another there here* for you to get the details and comment. 

Thanks!


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## TooFarGone

I had no prior equipment to sway my thinking. So after a lot of reading and discussion I decided on 8 frame medium Langs, an indoor observation hive, and some 5 frame nuc boxes.

Reasons for deciding on 8 frame:
-Both myself and my daughter will be manipulating the boxes so weight IS a BIG issue- a standard deep may weigh 90 lbs and a Dadant deep may weigh 110 lbs when full of honey. A medium 8 frame would not weigh more than about 48 lbs.
-Frame size uniformity- this only makes sense from a management standpoint
-I admit to being strongly influenced by the writings of Michael Bush about the merits of 8 frame mediums, standard frame size, small cell, and using 1-1/4 inch spacing in the brood chamber. I intend to build an observation hive this winter and put a nuc in it this next spring- maximum learning with minimum pain...
-better utilization of winter stores- per M. Bush
-I do not see the extra bee space between the mediums as being a problem for the bees in winter - they can cluster here as easily as in the space between combs

Relative downside of 8 frame medium:
-Primarily the increased initial cost- more boxes and frames = 1.78 times more expensive for equipment per M. Bush
-Somewhat less equipment available - All the big suppliers do stock 8 frame equipment, but hardly any 8 frame stuff on the used market around here

Plan B was for 10 frame mediums- would allow the use of used 10 frame equipment- you must consider the infection risk of using unknown history used equipment though. 

Other thoughts
- I looked HARD at top bar hive designs, and since I know I will have to move them hundreds of miles in a few years, I didn't think the wax/top bar attachment would survive the trip. They also are hard to move with one person. They would be easy for me to build with my current tools. The inability to easily expand the hive space requires frequent manipulation to prevent swarming. They might have an advantage in hurricaine winds and spent some time thinking about how to make them wind resistant. I was intrigued by the horizontal hive design using Langstrop frames.
- I looked hard at the Warre hives but ultimately deciced that since I want to experiment with raising queens that this system was not practical for me. If you wanted "bees in the guarden" and didn't want to mess with them much, it seems like a good hive design

8 frame rational link http://www.bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm

Nuc link http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnucs.htm

Lazy Beekeeper link http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#lighterboxes


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## Beelosopher

TooFarGone said:


> -I admit to being strongly influenced by the writings of Michael Bush about the merits of 8 frame mediums, standard frame size, small cell, and using 1-1/4 inch spacing in the brood chamber.


Thank you so much for these links, I ahve been trying ot find these so I appreciate them



TooFarGone said:


> -better utilization of winter stores- per M. Bush
> -I do not see the extra bee space between the mediums as being a problem for the bees in winter - they can cluster here as easily as in the space between combs


I would love to hear opinions about this so thank you. It is a current hang up I have with the all medium set up. 



TooFarGone said:


> Relative downside of 8 frame medium:
> -Primarily the increased initial cost- more boxes and frames = 1.78 times more expensive for equipment per M. Bush


you can say this again. Pricing them out for what i wanted, there was a very big difference. 
I was looking at 5 hives so I checked Dadant and came to about 158 per hive without foundation for a 2 hive body deep and 3 medium super set up, frames and nails included. For all mediums and 5 hives it was about 191 per hive. The 8 frame mediums were significantly more than that. 

I will take the time to read through Mr. Bush's opinions. Again, I do appreciate those links.


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## TooFarGone

Beelosopher

M. Bush discussed the issue of mediums and wintering in the section "Uniform Frame Size" at the Lazy beekeeper link in my post above. If you imagine the dynamic of how a bee cluster moves (typically upward) while staying in a cluster, having bee space between the supers actually helps them stay in a tight mass and allows bees to move around inside the cluster without loosing contact with the main mass of bees. 

I found M Bush's Advice For Beginning Beekeepers helpful in organize my thinking. Follow all the blue text for additional pages of information!

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnewbees.htm


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## Beelosopher

TooFarGone said:


> Beelosopher
> 
> M. Bush discussed the issue of mediums and wintering in the section "Uniform Frame Size" at the Lazy beekeeper link in my post above. If you imagine the dynamic of how a bee cluster moves (typically upward) while staying in a cluster, having bee space between the supers actually helps them stay in a tight mass and allows bees to move around inside the cluster without loosing contact with the main mass of bees.
> 
> I found M Bush's Advice For Beginning Beekeepers helpful in organize my thinking. Follow all the blue text for additional pages of information!
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnewbees.htm


Thanks again for the links. I spent much of last night reading them all (or most of them anyway). I am still in hot pursuit of bee knowledge so this was helpful and since i haven't committed to any equipment, may help me sway towards all of the same boxes. 


Does anybody know 
1. How many 10 frame lang mediums would make a typical hive? 7?
2. How many 8 frame lang mediums would make a typical hive? 7-8?


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## BeeCurious

All of my 8 frame medium hives are reduced to three boxes for the winter. Count on six or seven boxes per hive.

I have a lot of commercial grade boxes from Miller's that are just fine. I also bought some budget boxes that have chipped out hand holds but besides that, they are very serviceable.

http://millerbeesupply.com/index.php?_a=category&cat_id=73


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## Michael Bush

An eight frame medium is half the size of a ten frame deep. How many boxes depends on the flow that year...


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## Beelosopher

Michael Bush said:


> An eight frame medium is half the size of a ten frame deep. How many boxes depends on the flow that year...


Thanks for the point of reference. 

So if I were to go the 8 frame route (and want to match a 2 deep brrod chamber sizing) I could plan on 4 medium 8's to make up the brood chamber area, and supers depending on the flow, but say 4 more on hand would be a good idea.

If I go 10 frame mediums I might be able to get away with 3-4 for the brood chamber and another 4 supers for honey.

I like the interchangeability of the all medium set up, and the fact that using a beveled frame (four sided) should give me plenty of support if I go foundationless. With a deep I am concerned the 10 frame equipment isn't ideal due to potential lack of support.

In reading your website I noticed that you were an advocate of foundationless. However when speaking with some people about pf-1xx plastic frames some individuals were touting how great they were and that you used a lot of them, and may prefer them more than foundationless. Is that true?


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## Michael Bush

>However when speaking with some people about pf-1xx plastic frames some individuals were touting how great they were and that you used a lot of them, and may prefer them more than foundationless. Is that true? 

I have a mixture of things. I prefer foundationless if I have the time and energy to build the frames. I prefer the plastic PF120s when I don't have the time and energy. The foundationless "feels" better and is obviously more natural.


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## mmmooretx

Confused. I thought from my readings in this forum that 3 med. supers was considered equivalent to 2 deeps?

Update: I did the math on the usable foundation surface area, rather than rumor. 3 med. supers are 77% of 2 deeps and 4 med. supers are 102% of 2 deeps.


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## oblib

mmmooretx said:


> Confused. I thought from my readings in this forum that 3 med. supers was considered equivalent to 2 deeps?


3 TEN frame mediums, 4 EIGHT frame mediums are about 2 deeps


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## Beelosopher

Michael Bush said:


> >However when speaking with some people about pf-1xx plastic frames some individuals were touting how great they were and that you used a lot of them, and may prefer them more than foundationless. Is that true?
> 
> I have a mixture of things. I prefer foundationless if I have the time and energy to build the frames. I prefer the plastic PF120s when I don't have the time and energy. The foundationless "feels" better and is obviously more natural.


For the frames do you go with a bevel, or a starter strip? I may try some of the pf120s, but would love to know how you get success with foundationless , if a frame type works better than another.

In my case I am shooting for 2-5 hives, so building the frames shouldn't be too bad.

Thanks!


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## TooFarGone

Frame Equivalents Medium to Deep... 

Assuming that a medium frame has 2/3 the surface area of a deep- a commonly stated conversion factor

Then 1 Medium Frame = 2/3 Deep Frame

Rearranging this 3/2 Medium Frame = 1 Deep Frame

For 10 frame boxes 10 X 3/2 Medium Frames = 10 Deep Frames
then 15 Medium Frames = 10 Deep Frames

Comparing an 8 frame Medium box to 10 frame Deep 
If a Medium Frame is 2/3 the area of a Deep Frame
then 8 Medium Frames = 8 X 2/3 Deep Frames
8 Medium Frames = 16/3 Deep Frames
8 Medium Frames = 5-1/3 Deep Frames

Compare 10 Frame Deep to the equivalent number of 8 frame boxes
1 Deep Frame = 3/2 Medium Frame
10 Deep Frames = 10 X (3/2) Medium Frames = 15 Medium Frames

15 Medium Frames / 8 Frames per box = 1.875 8 frame Medium boxes

This means that one 10 frame Deep box is equal to 1.88 8 frame Medium boxes ( you would need one less medium frame for the 2 Mediums 8 frame boxes to be equal to the Deep).

(edited the last statement for math error)

by math challenged TooFarGone- Hope it helps


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## mmmooretx

My bad appologies to the group, I learned from this.
I checked the usable foundation dimensions from the Foundation Form Board from the build it your self section and used the following dimensions:
Both are 16.9375" long (16 15/16").
Deep is 7.875" tall (7 7/8")
Med. is 5.0625" tall (5 1/16")
20 deeps (2 sides) is 5335.3 sq. inches
16 med. (2 sides) is 4115.8 sq. inches or 77% of 2 deeps
24 med. (2 sides) is 5469 sq. inches or 102% of 2 deeps
My math may not be exact but I think the ratios are valid. 
Thank you all for the help and advice, lesson learned :thumbsup:


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

If we are going to need a degree in Math to be successful in Beekeeping, I am out of luck. (HA) 

cchoganjr


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## BGhoney

I would start with a standard, 8 or 10 frame set up. ( I'm cutting several of my 10 down to 8 frame deeps now ) But I wouldn't mix them just yet. I had several calls this year from beginning beekeepers looking to combine hives or hive swarms and they had mixed hives.. 1 lang, and 1 warre or 1 kenyan... it makes it much more difficult to move bees from one type to the other... I started with 2 langs and after 4 years built a kenyan and a lang long.... 90 percent of my bees are still in the langs..


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## Vermillion

Beelosopher said:


> For the frames do you go with a bevel, or a starter strip? I may try some of the pf120s, but would love to know how you get success with foundationless , if a frame type works better than another.
> 
> In my case I am shooting for 2-5 hives, so building the frames shouldn't be too bad.
> 
> Thanks!


I am in my first year as well and cant resist chiming in here too...

I was precisely where you are in terms of trying to get everything perfectly planned and decided, and while Michael Bush's advice on 8 frame mediums sounded (and IS) wonderful, the fact of the matter was that where I am, nobody has 8 frame equipment --- when I bought my bees, I bought the whole hive and it was 10 frame and so that settled that. Thats what everybody had and thats the size of the screened bottom boards with oil trays are that everyone is building here are too. So...I started with one full deep hive full of bees, and an extra 10 frame deep, and quickly purchased a few 10 frame mediums. 

From there I just continued with deeps as the brood chamber and keep worked up to 10 deeps and 20 mediums, and 5 nucs; ensuring I had enough equipment on hand for swarm calls, splits, etc. I was able to lend and borrow frames, boxes etc. (unused to hold people over till their orders arrived from the mainland and they could replace my equipment). Same size equipment is important where I live and is probably not as much of an issue for you. 

Also, I dont have a cold winter, so the overwintering is also not an issue. 

My boxes and my frames are now all assembled; the frames are now half with wax foundation, half without, so that in a pinch I can slide a foundationless frame between two drawn out frames and not have any problems. It is much easier to assemble all the frames you would need in a year and store them hanging in stacked empty painted boxes than to have to have an assembly party mid season when you are busy with other things....

I know you are probably in information overload, and I dont want to add overly to that, but wanted to share a couple of things.

1. Whatever you chose, be sure you have enough on hand, ready to carry into the bee yard when you start on day one. And have extra on hand. Why? Because day two might bring a swarm call! I have had to cobble together three mediums to house a swarm when I didnt have my deeps ready to go. Just be prepared....Thats still my strongest hive, BTW.

2. buying frames is much easier than building them. Spend your time making a nice jig that will enable you to staple together 10 frames at a time if you are handy...but the unassembled frames are cheap enough and no reason to re-invent the wheel to make them when they are so reasonably priced. 

3. my bees have expressed a clear preference for no foundation or wax foundation over plastic. For ME, a hobbyist, there is no reason to try to make them use plastic, they would rather build little wax shims and build 3/8 inch off the plastic than draw it out.

4. sometimes you need to just jump in the water. I was paralyzed with information overload till my mentor just told me...."Get the Bees, you ARE ready." I am glad I did, because I can still learn here and from reading and working with other folks in their beeyards; but the bees are teaching me too.

5. Get the big smoker. I thought I would only have two hives. Now I have 9, Including a TBH that I happened to be able to get as a trade for some graphic arts work I did. I put a swarm in it and it stayed. Now I have another waiting for bees...The point of that story is--you never know, you might end up with more bees than you thought 

Good luck....


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## Michael Bush

"usable foundation" depends on if you have fat wood top bars and wood bottom bars and wood end bars, or you have plastic frames with narrow top, end and bottoms. But volume is the main thing for a winter cluster. Three ten frame mediums is the equivalent of two ten frame deeps for most purposes.


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## mmmooretx

Michael Bush said:


> "usable foundation" depends on if you have fat wood top bars and wood bottom bars and wood end bars, or you have plastic frames with narrow top, end and bottoms. But volume is the main thing for a winter cluster. Three ten frame mediums is the equivalent of two ten frame deeps for most purposes.


Michael,
Thanks again for your insight. I currently have 3 10 frame double deep hives I am looking at starting 2 8 frame hives in April using med. supers boxes so I am currently planning how many boxes to buy/make.


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## rail

I am currently keeping bees in 8 frame deeps, 8 frame mediums, 10 frame deeps, 10 frame western (7 5/8") and 8 frame Jumbo. I will switch all my hives to 8 frame and 12 frame Jumbo, I like the single brood chamber.

Here are pictures of a foundationless Jumbo frame and hive.


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## TooFarGone

Love the hive stand!


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## Lburou

It seems like all the options here can cause indecision as we overanalyze these choices. I think you should flip a coin to decide between 8 frame or 10. Then, flip again to decide between deep or mediums. Done. 

I like 8 frame deeps. I'm older than most of you and have an unjured back from flying helicopters in the 1970's. If I can handle the 8 frame deep, most anyone can.


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## mmmooretx

Lburou said:


> It seems like all the options here can cause indecision as we overanalyze these choices. I think you should flip a coin to decide between 8 frame or 10. Then, flip again to decide between deep or mediums. Done.
> 
> I like 8 frame deeps. I'm older than most of you and have an unjured back from flying helicopters in the 1970's. If I can handle the 8 frame deep, most anyone can.


One of the newbee items to know is fhat if you are buying a NUC to start a hive it is almost exclusivly deep frames (can go to 8 or 10 frame Langs.), so if you want to go to medium only hives you will probably need to buy package bees or catch a swarm.


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## TooFarGone

My nuc supplier, Broke-T, will supply my two ordered nucs for next spring on medium frames, so it never hurts to ask!


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## mmmooretx

TooFarGone said:


> My nuc supplier, Broke-T, will supply my two ordered nucs for next spring on medium frames, so it never hurts to ask!


OUTSTANDING! First I have heard of this level of support.


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## Daniel Y

I have 10 frame langs and a top bar. I prefer the lang, it is more intuitive for me and information regarding the management is far more common. I have never tried a Warre and don't know that I ever plan to. For now the main reason for this is the following issue surrounding adequate brood space. I also use the 10 frame lang rather than an 8 frame due to these same issues. I can't really say I am right. All I can say is I have looked at the issue and made my choice.

I have been aware that a single deep 10 frame lang is not large enough for a queen to make a brood nest in a single box since I first started looking into keeping bees. This at first did not make much since to me. We make a box to keep bees in. Shouldn't that box be designed to be adequate for the bees? Looking further I found that the actual size of the box has more to do with consistency in equipment and portability than function. SO much so that it actually causes the size to come into question as to functionality. The simple answer is ad another box. Which of course is the standard answer. This of course causes the queen to have to move upward to find new places to lay. This moving up thing has some issues of it's own.

With 8 frame equipment this upward direction of the brood nest is increased. Th 13 frame lang is actually a good complete answer that allows a queen to lay in a single brood box. The Dadant hive design is also an answer and they actually went a long way in promoting it just for that reason. Btu when you roll it all together. the 10 frame lang is my favorite compromise between what others use, standard size equipment, it can still be handled and the queen has plenty of room without going to a third level. I have also witnessed at least to date that the queen will move back down as honey fills the upper box in a 10 frame. The 10 frame has some conservation of materials and labor. I can put 10 frames in a box for just a few more inches of wood and the exact same cutting and assembly time as I can an 8 frame. And it reduces the number of boxes needed overall. I woudl have to actually use 8 frame equipment side by side with 10 frame to really know if there is really that much difference though. All I can say is that for now I looked at the issue as I understand it and made my choice.


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## BeeCurious

> This of course causes the queen to have to move upward to find new places to lay. This moving up thing has some issues of it's own.


What are the issues?


It's my understanding that mediums enable the cluster to move through the hive more easily in the winter. 

I have been tempted to try a couple of 8 frame deeps but I would regret doing so the first time I wanted to move a frame with queen cells to a "queen castle" or nuc box.


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## Daniel Y

What are the issues?

Most of this comes from "The Dadant Method of Beekeeping" And the entire issue is rather complicated. So for the entire explanation I would direct you to that book.

As far as the moving up. when the queen runs out of room in the second frame she again tends to look upward for more empty space rather than going back down. The entire issue is somewhat just a portion of the overall progression of events as the queen moves from cell to cell laying eggs.


It's my understanding that mediums enable the cluster to move through the hive more easily in the winter. 

I have heard this mentioned before but don't understand just what is supposed to be making such a difference. I imagine that on the shorter frames the cluster may always be bridging from one frame to the next rather than avoiding the gap as I have seen people comment can be a problem.

I have been tempted to try a couple of 8 frame deeps but I would regret doing so the first time I wanted to move a frame with queen cells to a "queen castle" or nuc box.

I started with both deeps and med but I tend to be drifting toward all deeps after one summer. Mainly my brood boxes are deeps. so my nucs also tend to be deeps. this makes any med frames I have useless for anything but honey. This at times is a problem such as the last couple of weeks when I needed My big hive to fill frames of honey for two 5 frame nucs. I only had med frames. So a deep nuc box got cut down to a med. I have not yet gotten the whole deep or med issue settled with myself. I know for a fact I don't like lifting deeps of honey. I am probably going to a deep brood box and everything else med everything else at the very least. I may end up on the all med side of the fence. [/QUOTE]


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## BeeCurious

Daniel Y,

I believe you meant "The Dadant System of Beekeeping".




Daniel Y said:


> I may end up on the all med side of the fence.


There's a lot of people who like having one size of box.



I had a discussion about "all mediums" with Dewey Caron several years ago and while he didn't have any objections to using all 8-frame mediums, he did say that the swirled brood pattern on a deep frame has a nice, natural look to it. I agree.


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## rail

If you measure the distance between the bottom of the frames and bottom of the box on mediums and shallows, it is not as great as deeps. That is how my equipment has measured from vendors. Could explain the ease of movement of the cluster.

Queens do different things; some queens will move between boxes of deeps or mediums and some will not. I have tried the unlimited brood nest of mediums and it is not for my keeping practice.

My main reason for switching to 8 frame "Jumbos" is the singular brood chamber, it has the same area as the 10 frame deep. Also keeping control of those nasty "small hive beetles", I cannot stand to chase those pest between chambers!!!

I still use 10 frame shallows for comb honey, the brood chamber is a shallow with 9 frames. This compresses the bees to work the supers. There are many different ways bees will provide what you want, so try it and make your own decisions.


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## rail

Daniel Y said:


> Th 13 frame lang is actually a good complete answer that allows a queen to lay in a single brood box.


13 Frame Lang. for raising "drones"!


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## rail

"Western" hive (7 5/8") two chambers with one deep and a medium 8 frame hive.


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## Daniel Y

BeeCurious said:


> Daniel Y,
> 
> I believe you meant "The Dadant System of Beekeeping".


Yeah that one what BeeCurious said.


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## Beelosopher

OK so to put a final comment on this thread and to let any new onlookers know what I gleened from 122 posts on hive equipment.... I made a decision, at least for now (only took 2 months!):

I was hot for bees, then cold for bees the more I read and the vast expanse of beekeeper personalities was proving to be bothersome. Then I finally reached a point where I said the heck with it, I am going to give it a shot my perceived way based on what I have learned so far, and what I will learn up until the moment when i get my nucs. So thanks all for your contribution to this thread as I took what I needed and discarded the rest (for now).

I decided to go with all medium 10 langs. with screened bottom boards to start. A key factor to this was that the place I will be getting nucs from uses mediums, so I sucked up the cost on the extra mediums vs. deeps and moved on. I went with the wedge frames because they are versatile and I can use them for foundation and foundationless action. For my first year I will be mocking my nuc providers set up of foundation in the brood chamber and foundationless honey supers. Eventually I will work to getting them all to foundationless throughout the hive. 

Wahoo - just placed and order with Dadant today, and signed up for the fall 2012 honey producers meeting. I will get to hear some great speakers (including Michael Bush) talk, and participate in a lab where they will show attendees how to ID a bunch of hive ailments. 

It seems like for now, it is coming together for this new guy.

Best to all!


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## Vermillion

Congratulations and enjoy the meeting. I hope you will let us know how it goes!


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## DonShackelford

joan said:


> I hated the styrofoam. ... I found them annoying.


Besides interchangeability, what did you not like about the styrofoam hive bodies? I was planning on making some this winter. Foam is cheap, 1x12 is expensive. 

My take on hive sizes, I'm all 8 frame deeps and 5 frame deeps in order to vary the box but not the frame. I have found that not using standard 10 frame is like fighting city hall. I'm buying some single deeps in the spring and of course they are in 10 frame deeps.


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## kilocharlie

Beelosopher - I think you made a good choice. Medium 10-frame Langs should serve you well - treat them with linseed oil and they will last a long time. SBB's are a good idea for checking mite counts and staying AHEAD of the mite game. Best of luck to you!


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## psfred

Woodenware should last as long as you want to keep bees if you assemble it well and keep it painted or otherwise protected from weathering. It's expensive to start, but my brother and I have not had to actually replace a box yet in 7 years, so it's really a one time cost.

There are lots of ways around the barn in beekeeping, so do what you want. You will find out very quickly if what you set up isn't working for you, and if you stick with a few hives to start, you won't be out much money in the end. A buddy of mine decided after getting all fired up about top bar hives that they are much too hard to manage for him, a Lang works much better and the bees seem to be happier, to say nothing of the ease with which honey can be extracted from a Lang vs crush and strain.

After a year or two you will know what you want to use if you grow your apiary, but you can always experiment with a hive or two. Once you get going, there are swarms every year which are a great source of bees for different hive types or management. Much nicer than paying for a package, and as our neighbor down the road said, if they swarmed in the spring, I know it was a healthy, strong hive!

Peter


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## Ddawg

This past February 2012 I was in the exact same position as you . I knew I only wanted a few hives, I started doing some research and I found this Forum.

After my first year these are some of my conclusions.

1) Read everything you can.

2) There are tons of opinions on here on which way to start (All mediums, 8 frame, 9 frame, small cell etc, etc.) It will make your head spin trying to figure it out. I think it's best to pick one and stick with it till you have a good understanding of what your doing before doing any experimenting. I decided to go with simplicity and use standard 10 frame equipment because i had a local supplier and i could get a complete hive for $114.00

3) The forum is a great resource, BUT don't rely entirely on it . In the beginning I was scared to make a move without consulting the forum (I didn't have a reliable local mentor), then i would be totally frustrated when i got 10 completely different answers or didn't get any answers at all. (No fault of the forum, that's just how forums are ) 
I had read several books, and followed this forum prior to starting this venture and I felt i had a good foundation; so I went cold turkey from the forum and started to do things on my own and trust my instincts. 

Good luck with your hives!


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## kilocharlie

psfred -
My buddy treated some hives with 50% boiled linseed oil and 50% mineral spirits back in 1973 and is still using them. Very few cracks in them as of yet (2013). Yes, he paints them every 2 years, but many of mine NOT treated with linseed oil and painted every year already have cracks and weathering in the end grain. You can bet I have treated all my new ones with linseed oil before painting, and will be treating all of the rest with linseed next time I paint. I let them dry for 2 weeks and then I paint them with 2 coats of KILZ II primer and 2 coats of exterior grade latex paint. 

I even made a wood and metal dipping tank for the linseed treatment.


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## psfred

A penetrating oil treatment sure isn't going to hurt any on wood. The problem with just using linseed oil as a finish coat is that it weathers badly, and is soon gone. No UV resistance to speak of. Used as a penetrating sealer, covered with paint, it should keep the joints and end grain dry, which is what you want.

I may try that with the batch of boxes I'm making now, since I should have time to work with them rather than get them made as soon as possible -- I'm trying to get ahead of the game this year rather than trying to round up equipment while I have bees stuffed into a nuc that need a home.

Peter


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## kilocharlie

I agree. Linseed treated Sugar pine works out cheaper than Cypress.


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