# Extra holes for ventilation?



## space bee (Jan 16, 2006)

My two tbhs didn't survive their first winter last year, due to a rookie not realizing they were too wet. I have currently changed two things:
took off the bottom so they just have a screen, and propped the lid up a little bit in the front. 
Should I keep it that way for the winter, or drill some extra holes in the sides for ventilation?
I am also planning to put in a follower board this time so they don't have to warm the whole hive. It's been unseasonably warm here so far...


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

*ventilation*

I have screened floors on all but one of mine and no problems yet, winter or summer, in either type. I use 3 side entrance holes in summer, reducing to 1 in winter. The times I have tried any extra ventilation, esp. near the top, it gets propolized in short order.


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## space bee (Jan 16, 2006)

Thank you buckbee. Do you think I should keep the lid slightly propped open during winter?


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

How do you know it was a moisture problem?


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## space bee (Jan 16, 2006)

That's what most folks I asked agreed on....


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Where is the supporting evidence?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My moisture solution is a top entrance (only a top entrance) and some Styrofoam on top of the lid to keep the temperature from being cold enough for condensation to form so much.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. My point is why change management practices on a guess, theory, possibly a wives tale. I think it would require some more investigation. If moisture is the only cause that anyone can come up with, then that has to be the starting point for the investigation. Don't just take it as the gospel truth because there is no other simple explanation clearly presenting itself. 

I challenge anyone to find any documented proof that winter moisture is deadly to bees. Other than opinion passed down thru the years!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I challenge anyone to find any documented proof that winter moisture is deadly to bees. Other than opinion passed down thru the years!

As in a study? Or experience? I've seen the upside down dome of ice on the inner cover that melts and drips on the cluster on a 33 F day.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Michael,
Any experience, any documentation would be great! The only actual study I have seen was done by Dennis and is documented on his site. A few questions arise: Could winter moisture be a regional problem? Did the dripping you saw actually hurt the cluster or could they have consumed it? What damage is actually done freezing or drowning or something else? What would you look for that would confirm it was a moisture problem? Have you ever observed this in a TBH? Are people who are using follower boards placing them too close to the cluster and creating an oven type effect?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The only actual study I have seen was done by Dennis and is documented on his site.

But Dennis is in Casper. I never saw problems with condensation when I lived out there either. It is MUCH drier.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Then that answers the question, I do not have a problem with moisture either so it must be a regional/climate problem. I am still wondering if the placement of follower boards could be a factor.


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## space bee (Jan 16, 2006)

Where I live, the last winter was exceptionally warm and wet well into January before it got cold. I did not have a follower board in.


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## BeeBrothersApiary (Oct 14, 2007)

Michael Bush said:


> My moisture solution is a top entrance (only a top entrance) and some Styrofoam on top of the lid to keep the temperature from being cold enough for condensation to form so much.


you saying no entrance reducer at the bottom, the bottom entrance is shut off completely? i thought i read you also keep the bottom varroa screen fully open also with no bottom board? and lastly is it: strofoam - inner cover - outer cover or is it foam - inner cover - outer cover?

thanks in advance


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>you saying no entrance reducer at the bottom, the bottom entrance is shut off completely?

Well, the current discusion is top bar hives and I never HAD a lower entrance to shut off. But on my langstroth boxes I did shut them off completley. All the time.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm

> i thought i read you also keep the bottom varroa screen fully open also with no bottom board?

I have mine closed off for the winter IF they have a varroa screen on them.

> and lastly is it: strofoam - inner cover - outer cover or is it foam - inner cover - outer cover?

I put styrofoam on TOP of everything. There is no inner cover on a top bar hive. But if it was a langstroth with an inner cover I would still put the foam on top of everything.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

*Documented*

In my memory

When we first moved to Oklahoma from Southern California in 1971. We didn't have to worry about a moisture problem in the desert.

But we got worried about the cold winters In Oklahoma.
So what we did was put in the entrance reducers plug up any holes weighted down the lids with rocks (now they were set for what ever old man winter had to offer) WRONG 

6 to 8 frame winter clusters (we didn't open them during the coldest part of the winter because we didn't want to chill them. When we did about the first of march about 1/2 half of the bees lay on the bottom board dead moisture was all over the inside of the cover combs were begging to mold. NOT a pretty sight.

This happen 2 years in a row The second year there were a few hives that didn't get their entrance reducers put in, also we checked some through the winter. a few hive we top ventilated under the lid after it got cold and the bees were not able work because of the temperature was to cold for them to fly We would put a small rock that would raise the lid about a 1/4 inch. These hives came through the winter in great shape so from then on we top ventilated. (rock,Stick ect) ALSO when the honey flow gets going good I will lay the entrance reducer on top of the frames and it will raise the lid for lot better air circulation helps in riping the honey less stress on the bees (better quality of honey stop finding all the fermented honey because of those hot high humid days.


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## cajun_mike (Oct 30, 2007)

I appreciate ya'll discussion about this.

I'm really in a quandary about this issue. When I lived in Denver, I didn't worry so much about the moisture issue because of the dryness. 

But, now I live in Washington state (Pacific Northwest part) and the winters are cold AND very humid. Moss grows on houses, trees, in the lawns - everywhere because of the moisture.

So, it's really a dillema for me to try to juggle the two issues: should I button up the bee hives tight to protect them from the cold or ventilate to protect them from the moisture.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Mike in WA


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Ask a local they are the best source of that info.


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## Moonshae (Jun 7, 2007)

If bees can live as far north as the arctic circle, surely cold isn't so much of an issue.


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## mistergil (May 24, 2007)

Moonshae said:


> If bees can live as far north as the arctic circle, surely cold isn't so much of an issue.


I believe that this is the crux of the wintering issues. The bee cluster is highly adaptable to temperature change but much less adaptable to humidity/moisture conditions. I am convinced that ventilation techniques adapted to local environmental aspects dictate wintering success or failure. Obviously stores, health, etc. also play a role, but in the overall analysis proper ventilation is the key. Marginal stores with adequate and correct air movement flows may allow cold survival whereas plenty of stores without and a moisture buildup assures death. The "local" conditions may vary from the front yard to the backyard to such a degree that each may require a unique solution. These solutions can be learned and then turned into experience but actually doing it and watching what happens is really the only sure way.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

I'd suggest using a plex cover or insert and monitor the moisture conditions for yourself.

Casper was dry, cold and very windy. But Dave Cushman, an English beekeeper, has seen the same winter/water conditions that I have. And he's in a damp, cloudy climate.

Researchers have worked on the optimum temperature, moisture, carbon dioxide, etc. levels for optimum overwintering. Some have suggested that a single upper entrance provides the best set of conditions. I've tried that and just about every other combination. But, for Casper's conditions, I've found that approximating what the bees would choose consistently gives the best results. For a tbh, that's a bottom entrance near the broodnest without any upper ventilation. I reduce mine to about 5" x 3/8". They often require some additional insulation on the top bars, directly above the broodnest. And a block or two so that any water condensing on the tbh sides, during extremely cold weather, will flow out the bottom entrance.

I think different approaches with different equipment configurations would produce acceptable wintering results.

And just about any combination will get the bees through the winter, as winter really isn't the critical time for them if they are healthy. Overwintering differences are seen in early spring when brood rearing starts in earnest. The best time to measure overwintering success is three brood cycles later. 

For my beekeeping, I considered overwintering successful when my hives can survive, thrive and start swarm preparations in early summer without any intervention, before that, from me. Many beekeepers, due to their overwintering practices, are forced into their hives before that and often do more long term damage than good.

If you monitor moisture, take a few photos and share your observations. I'd do it myself. Boynton Beach has lots of water/humidity but absolutely no winter. Looking at the climate stats, it appears that it's hard to find even a single day when the bees would cluster ;>)

Regards
Dennis


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## space bee (Jan 16, 2006)

Dennis, do you have a solid bottom or a screened bottom board in the winter?


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

BWrangler said:


> Researchers have worked on the optimum temperature, moisture, carbon dioxide, etc. levels for optimum overwintering. Some have suggested that a single upper entrance provides the best set of conditions. I've tried that and just about every other combination. But, for Casper's conditions, I've found that approximating what the bees would choose consistently gives the best results. For a tbh, that's a bottom entrance near the broodnest without any upper ventilation.


I reached the same conclusion using imaginary 'what would I prefer if I was a bee?' scenarios. Not very scientific, I know, but the bees seem to like it.

(I have PM'd you, BTW)


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Space Bee,

It's solid. You can see a picture at:

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/tanzanian-top-bar-hive/

Regards
Dennis


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Moisture in a hive has to rise and condense, I can see the problem in a Lang where the bees are in a bottom box working thier way up, but in a TBH they are already at the top.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Casper was dry, cold and very windy. But Dave Cushman, an English beekeeper, has seen the same winter/water conditions that I have. And he's in a damp, cloudy climate.

But Casper is -40 F and no humidity. England is +18 F and a lot of humidity. Here I get -30 and a lot of humidity. I never had problems in Laramie (same as Casper, -40 and no humidity) or Mitchel, Nebraska (same as Casper) but I do have condensation problems here.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

*moisture*

They say to every 10 lbs of honey consumed they give off 10 lbs of moisture if forms condensation.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Humidity or no humidity, 10 lbs of moisture or 20 lbs of moisture, lets deal with these factors for example purposes. Now let’s stick with TBH hives and pose the questions once again.

Does anyone have any experience or documented evidence that winter moisture is a problem in TBH hives.

I think that since the cluster is already at the top of the hive the rising heat will have to move outward to encounter cool air needed to condense thus keeping ice from forming over top of it.

I drew this conclusion from seeing Dennis’ pictures.

I am further speculating that TBH keepers who use follower boards may be restricting that available space preventing the heat from moving outward. The thinking here was less space for the bees to heat, The problem is bees are not space heaters they just heat the cluster.

Some of the unknowns still are the effects of mold if there was any.

I have no proof and I am just speculating and would like some opinions.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Didn't think so.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

*moisture and winter ventilation*



MIKI said:


> Does anyone have any experience or documented evidence that winter moisture is a problem in TBH hives.


My hives - all except one - have mesh floors and all - except a different one - have two follower boards. I have not yet had any moisture problems, which I put down to (a) adequate ventilation (bottom + low entrances only); (b) limiting the space they have to keep warm (followers); (c) adequate insulation (thick walls, insulated roof). Being on legs, my hives are also well off the ground, which may also help.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

I keep mine sealed and on wood stands no follower and also do not have a problem. Any TBH keepers out there that have had a moisture/ventilation problem?


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## Tim Hall (Sep 14, 2007)

MIKI,

I know first hand that Bayern isn't exactly the most arid of climates, and as such I can see how you might have a case against the need for ventilation. But I think you might be a little over-zealous in your aim. I think without knowing precisely interior and exterior humidity, temperature, ability of the bees to push air, etc., no one can make solid claims either way.

From the point of view of an architect (someone very much concerned with controlling the atmosphere within a given space), this a dynamic system, involving several exterior AND interior factors (including the porosity of the construction material, air infiltration, etc.). Particular microclimates within a beeyard can have a huge impact.

So I'm not so sure you just can make generalizations about top bar hives needing or not needing ventilation. Besides if your so bent on disproving this, I think the burden of proof may be on you.


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## CBBaron (Oct 12, 2007)

MIKI said:


> I am further speculating that TBH keepers who use follower boards may be restricting that available space preventing the heat from moving outward. The thinking here was less space for the bees to heat, The problem is bees are not space heaters they just heat the cluster.


I am not an experienced beekeeper, (I'm researching before getting some bees in the spring) however I have seen this opinion stated several times by different people and it doesn't make sense to me. 
Like humans bees use metabolic energy to keep themselves warm when the temperature is too cold. They cluster to be able to better share this energy between themselves and use the energy more efficiently. However they are producing heat and the temperature in a small well insulated space will be considerably warmer than the same bees in a large thin walled or highly ventilated space. Sure they can survive in either type of space but I would imagine that in the warmer space they will be able to get to stores more often and will use less energy keeping warm. It also makes sense that they could keep a larger brood warm in the spring when building up. 
Am I missing something from my understanding about bees? Maybe the differences are not great enough to matter?

Craig Baker


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

I haven't had any dripping condensation on the broodnest in my tbhs. But I've had a beekeeper created water problem in them. 

I move my hives to a winter location after the weather gets cold. Most years I prepare the site and then move the bees in. I like to block all my hives so that any water drains out the entrances. One time, I just moved them in and set them on the ground without the preparation. As a result, a tbh ended up on some rough ground.

It was far from level. Rather than draining out the front entrance, water collected in the far rear corner. Next spring, there was a pool back there, which had to be cleaned and dried out. The broodnest area was dry and the bees unaffected.

Regards
Dennis


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Tim

This is what I said:

I have no proof and I am just speculating and would like some opinions.

I am not hell bent on prooving anything. I am seeking real experience with TBH,s. If the burden of proof were on me and I won my case it would only apply to me and not you as you live in a different climate. The burden of proof implys an argument when all I want to do is research. I will say there are three facts that cannot be disputed when dealing with winter moisture. 

First: There will always be moisture in beehives.

Second: It is not the moisture thats the problem it is how it is managed.

Third: Winter moisture will be a problem in some regions and not others.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

CBBaron said:


> Sure they can survive in either type of space but I would imagine that in the warmer space they will be able to get to stores more often and will use less energy keeping warm. It also makes sense that they could keep a larger brood warm in the spring when building up.
> Am I missing something from my understanding about bees? Maybe the differences are not great enough to matter?
> 
> Craig Baker


You are following a very logical line of thought and I thought the same not too long ago. I set out to research this and found two people considered authorities on beekeeping had the oppoisite view. George Imieri (I think I butchered his name) and Allen Dick both stated (from my understanding of what I read) that warm winters and hive temps are bad for a few reasons.

Bear with me here because this goes somewhat off topic here.

1. Bees are more active when it is warm and will go through thier winter stores faster comming up short in the spring.
2. Spring not winter is the time bees are most likley to starve due to the absence of nectar and the increase of brood rearing which consumes tremendous amounts of stores.
3. warmer weather in winter allows mites to get a foothold again damaging the winter brood.

Now back on topic:

Moisture in the air will condense when there is too much i.e. the dew point is reached.
moisture will not reach the dew point if there is more air to mix with thus absorbing more moisture- the basic principal behind ventilation; providing more air to absorbe the mositure. 

Yes, the use of follower boards makes a nice cozy cavity but it also restricts the amount of space that can hold the extra air for the moisture to mix with to possibily prevent condensation in the first place.

Once again so no one jumps on me I AM NOT arguing I AM speculating and looking for opinions. I am not aginst or for follower boards or ventilation I think everyone should carry on with what works best for them. 

Also: 

Bavaria is not the most arid place on the planet, but our winters are crisp and cold I live on the side of a mountain only 2 hours from the Alps. We are currently experiencing a rather wet November.


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## Tim Hall (Sep 14, 2007)

MIKI said:


> Yes, the use of follower boards makes a nice cozy cavity but it also restricts the amount of space that can hold the extra air for the moisture to mix with to possibily prevent condensation in the first place.


I think this idea might be a little flawed. (Not to make an argument out of it...again I'm coming from a the perspective of someone who designs climate-controlled spaces) This assumes that that air has the capacity to absorb all the moisture in question. I'm guessing it wouldn't take much water at all to to saturate the relatively small volume of a hive. And once that air is saturated, it's saturated (for the given temperature...if temperature drops, it precipitates). With ventilation, you have an infinite supply of 'absorbing' air.

Bees and humans are different, but we're both aerobic organisms, and we both get sick from parasites, fungi, viruses and bacteria. It's been found that NOT having a regular exchange of air (air brought in from the outside) in buildings makes people sick. The most widely adopted of of building codes in the US requires a certain minimum exchange of air depending on the size of the space. Bees understand the need for ventilation, otherwise they wouldn't have the instinct to fan.

I suppose the question remains, just how much ventilation is needed? Perhaps only the amount of errant infiltration within a 'sealed' hive is sufficient (?)


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

I agree 100% that is the question and I think the answer will vary depending on the region, also take into consideration there is no standard volume everyone builds these hives according to what they think is ideal. One standard would not work for everyone anyway.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

>I suppose the question remains, just how much ventilation is needed? ...

The easiest way to find out, is too let the bees tell us. First, study what they prefer and do naturally. Then apply that information to the type of equipment and management used. Could a few simple changes provide a better approximation to a natural situation?

Try it out and see.

When I make changes using this approach, my bees are healthier and my beekeeping easier than before. I now think bee biology first, beekeepers need and management second.

I think many common beekeeping practices originate from the exact opposite perspective. Beekeepers needs and management first, then bee biology second. The test, if it didn't kill them, then it's ok. But with a highly adaptable creature like the bee, that's not the best test.

That approach can produce a cascading series of long term, often subtle, negative effects which spawn beekeeping practices that work against the bee's natural propensities. And these can cause their own series of cascading events.

Regards
Dennis


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Just a few personal thoughts on this subject. I've spent most of my life playing with new ideas most of which didn't work. The net result is a huge barn and three outbuildings packed full of gidgets, gadgets, and misc. equipment I have built and can't part with because I might use it again for something. I play around a lot with the ideas of ventilation in the hive. I set up one yard a few years ago in an area about 100 feet from a year round creek with too much shade and no matter what I did to ventilate the hives I produced more varieties of fungi than anything else. LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION is said to be crucial to any venture. Out here I have locations similar to just about anything you can find in the USA because of the rapid altitude change provided by the Sierra Nevada Mountains. The only thing I can't reproduce is the high temp with high humidity of the south atlantic costal states. Here when it gets hot, it gets dry, so ventilation is a late fall, winter, spring issue.

I've tried M. Bushes method with building shims under the cover, although I believe he uses them with in inner cover and a telescoping outer cover. They seem to work except that when I need a lot of ventilation for those hot August days, the thick end of the shims opens the doors to robber bees, when I want less ventilation I have to turn the shims around so I stopped glueing them down. It became a pain in the niether regions getting the shims right when I put the covers on the hives. I tried 1/8 " strips below the front end of the migratory covers and that works fairly well except sometimes I have to clean too much propolis off in the spring. My newest plan is to bend a bunch of staple shaped lengths of #10 wire and drop them over the front corners of the hive. I'm hoping that the shape will help me keep from littering the bee yard with lost shims and the wire size will prevent robbers and reduce the amount of propolis while allowing the bees to adjust their own level of ventilation. I'd like to have the staples get glued in place with propolis and just open the ventilation up with a few scrapes with my hive tool when the weather starts getting warm.

I keep my SBBs open all year long in my warmer locations and only partially block them where we get a lot of days below freezing. I doubt that I get away with using them when SHB finally finds its way here.

Well, those few thoughts turned into a whole lot of rambling but what you gonna do when it's 3:00 AM and you can't sleep?


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Just a few personal thoughts on this subject. I've spent most of my life playing with new ideas most of which didn't work. The net result is a huge barn and three outbuildings packed full of gidgets, gadgets, and misc. equipment I have built and can't part with because I might use it again for something. I play around a lot with the ideas of ventilation in the hive. I set up one yard a few years ago in an area about 100 feet from a year round creek with too much shade and no matter what I did to ventilate the hives I produced more varieties of fungi than anything else. LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION is said to be crucial to any venture. Out here I have locations similar to just about anything you can find in the USA because of the rapid altitude change provided by the Sierra Nevada Mountains. The only thing I can't reproduce is the high temp with high humidity of the south atlantic costal states. Here when it gets hot, it gets dry, so ventilation is a late fall, winter, spring issue for moisture, and a summer issue for to 100 plus days we have been getting too many of.

I've tried M. Bushes method with building shims under the cover, although I believe he uses them with in inner cover and a telescoping outer cover. They seem to work except that when I need a lot of ventilation for those hot August days, the thick end of the shims opens the doors to robber bees, when I want less ventilation I have to turn the shims around so I stopped glueing them down. It became a pain in the niether regions getting the shims right when I put the covers on the hives. I tried 1/8 " strips below the front end of the migratory covers and that works fairly well except sometimes I have to clean too much propolis off in the spring. My newest plan is to bend a bunch of staple shaped lengths of #10 wire and drop them over the front corners of the hive. I'm hoping that the shape will help me keep from littering the bee yard with lost shims and the wire size will prevent robbers and reduce the amount of propolis while allowing the bees to adjust their own level of ventilation. I'd like to have the staples get glued in place with propolis and just open the ventilation up with a few scrapes with my hive tool when the weather starts getting warm.

I keep my SBBs open all year long in my warmer locations and only partially block them where we get a lot of days below freezing. I doubt that I get away with using them when SHB finally finds its way here.

Well, those few thoughts turned into a whole lot of rambling but what you gonna do when it's 3:00 AM and you can't sleep?


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Oops1! I guess I posted this in the wrong thread. I'm half asleep and didn't realize I was in Top Bar Hives so I drifted off into migratory Langstroth ventilation. D. Murrell, I won't be offended if you dump it as superflourous and not to the point.


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