# Mite Bombs



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Food for thought...


http://www.beeculture.com/catch-buz...il&utm_term=0_0272f190ab-ecd445c180-331937553


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Our State Apiarist recently did a presentation for our club and she touched on some of these issues. She told us that she took part in an experiment where they marked drones and found that they traveled to other apiaries and had gotten into other hives. This would help spread mites as well as other communicable disease.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

When I first found varroa in my colonies, it was 1 apiary. Next summer it was all apiaries. I didn't buy any bees


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

My dozens of mite bombs are surrounded by dozens of hobbyist mite bombs and hundreds and probably thousands of feral mite bombs. I can't really see how I me super medicating can mitigate the problem.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

odfrank said:


> My dozens of mite bombs are surrounded by dozens of hobbyist mite bombs and hundreds and probably thousands of feral mite bombs. I can't really see how I me super medicating can mitigate the problem.


We have the opportunity here, but now we are having to go to three treatments and more checking unless we are isolated.


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## Charlestonbee (Mar 26, 2015)

What do you suggest doing with these "yellow" bee hives. The ones that are collapsing and you see it coming. I try to keep my mite numbers as low as possible but inevitably I have a couple that for whatever reason succumb to mites. Also once they are pretty much gone what do you do with remaining combs and bees? How long before reusing these combs in other hives? I have access to reefer units but they aren't mine. I put supers in there but don't want to hassle my buddy w 1-5 hives worth of comb.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> She told us that she took part in an experiment where they marked drones and found that they traveled to other apiaries and had gotten into other hives.


Can confirm. When I was learning how to mark queens I practiced on ten drones picked from one hive first. Over the next few weeks I spotted those marked drones in all of my hives. Those boys get around.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Also relevant

http://www.beeculture.com/downtown-3/

With highly mite resistant bees this paradigm does not occur. Using mite resistance is effective only when most colonies in an area are resistant because an overwhelming load of mites can still take down a resistant colony.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> Also relevant
> 
> 
> http://www.beeculture.com/downtown-3/
> ...


Very true!


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

This is my pov it is not all those tons of crashing colonies that spread varroa as you might think. Of course this does happen but probably not at the level we all imagine. I think the biggest spreader of varroa is drones going out to mate. Drones are accepted into foreign hives all the time during active breeding season. You couple this with say a less than effective treatment and you could see varroa populations rise. After 16 yrs of small cell I can say small cells do not stop varroa. Breeding is way more important. I have some ideas to stay TF , have way less loses, use no treatments unless dire emergency, and keep bees alive to breeding from and make a profit. But things have to change.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Clayton Huestis said:


> ...But things have to change.


good post clay. what do you think needs to change?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Oddfrank


> My dozens of mite bombs are surrounded by dozens of hobbyist mite bombs and hundreds and probably thousands of feral mite bombs. I can't really see how I me super medicating can mitigate the problem.


Now I have to decide wether I like your quote best or stick with one from a differrent thread.



> Jim lyon give the best sumation of my view on the mighty mite bomb thread.
> quote
> There is no way of knowing what level of mite invasion comes from where. I don't obsess about things I can't control. I would hope neighboring beekeepers would make an effort to be responsible in their beekeeping practices, including placement of hives, regardless of their philosophy. One is best served worrying more about their own hives and less about others.


I read the story of the lady that said she investigated and it was her neibor. I did not see one drop of proof to back her claim. It might be very possible but with what she did to investigate, it is just guessing and pointing a finger. I have seen the studies on the drone movement and lots more.

Cheers
gww


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> what do you think needs to change?


 I'll comment and hope Clay will add his 2 cents. IMO, the biggest thing that has to change is beekeepers. We as a group have to demand queens from stock bred to be mite resistant. This is especially true at the commercial beekeeper level. They represent more colonies with more queens than all the sideline and hobbyist beekeepers combined.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Well obviously our thinking needs to change before we can put into practice new practices. After being TF for so many years seems odd to go running for chemical treatments which is the very place I don't want to be. Were not going to change honeybee biology or varroa right? There still going to swarm, make honey, ect. Varroa is here to stay forever. The eradicate mentality isn't working and has yet to work. Point fingers at the guy down the street doesn't help. Not everyone wants to learn about varroa and proper beekeeping. I think we need to turn around look at what we have in our own apiaries. I think we can all agree that doing nothing to stop varroa = dead bees for the most part. I have a plan to go forward, treating year after year, doing the same old thing gives you the same old results.... are we expecting something else?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

gww said:


> I read the story of the lady that said she investigated and it was her neighbor. I did not see one drop of proof to back her claim. It might be very possible but with what she did to investigate, it is just guessing and pointing a finger.


no she talked to EXPERTS in the field…. Dr. Dennis vanEngelsdorp of the BeeInformed Partnership, EAS Certified Beekeeper Dr. Wayne Esaias, founder of HoneyBeeNet , Her neighbor who is a federal entomolitagist. And they walked her threw the postmordum
Rember the mites took out an entire apiary of bees 10 hives that had been treated form mites late summer, then crashed. This was not just coming from her neighbor, the entire apiary crashed
Greatti et al., (1992) showed a 75 mite per day inveaion rate for sept/oct, that added up to a lot of mites in brood that is needed to over winter.

please pull you head out of the sand, and look at who is telling us this needs to be addressed
Michael Palmer
Michael Bush
Dennis vanEngelsdorp
Tom Seeley 
Erik Osterlund
Eva Frey
Randy Oliver
the list goes on, well respected TF advocates, researchers, and successful commercial bee keepers 


Fusion_power said:


> Using mite resistance is effective only when most colonies in an area are resistant because an overwhelming load of mites can still take down a resistant colony.


Exactly 
but in the highdenisty beekeeping in both articles, the issue is lack of monitoring, as it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch



Fusion_power said:


> the biggest thing that has to change is beekeepers. .


yes, and to that point, the change in message to new beekeepers in urban/suburban settings(the majority of bee keepers now) needs to change, they need to say on top of their mite counts and depending on temps in their area may need Oct/nov counts as the hive dencinty in those areas can be astronomical, IIRR London was 40 beekeepers and 100 hives with in flight range (2 mile radius) 

This (mite bombs in urban/suburban high density) settings is not caused by Treatment or Treatment Free beekeeping. 
It is caused by poor beeping practices for the local area they are in. Mainly “Count Free” beekeeping practiced on bolth sides of the treatment spectrum. 

Now there are several issues here depending on what you call a mite bomb, and all are exbrasted by high density settings

Drifting- http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0140337 17% of the workers in a hive were not from that hive. Up to ½ of those were not even from that apiary 

Robbing of a colony that is collapsing or severing weakened by Varroa. This is what I think of when using the term mite bomb…. Been there my self, surprise fall flow, hives that then crash form no were over winter

Atack- I had not hurd this till a bit ago, Erik Osterlund put forth that when a colony absconds do to mites they attempt to usurp a hive elce were.. From Wyatt Magnum we know bees can do a late summer usurpation swarm ..


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## exmar (Apr 30, 2015)

I was TF for about seven years, started seeing mites went with OA dribble, couple of years later, saw more mites, bought a OxaVap and will now treat as needed. Emotionally I'd like to see something change in the big picture, intellectually, I accept that I can only attempt to control my very, very minute portion of it.


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

That is unadulterated bull****, if I may be so blunt. The issue is money, plain and simple. Take the 'human condition' out of it and honey bees will still be here when our bones are dust. Nature doesn't kill nature because the result is itself as a species dying. Predator can not live without the prey. You know it, I know it and everybody else knows it. We just happen to be at a point in time where our 'the human condition' is interfering with cycles that have been occurring for for millions of years. Go figure , we'll mess it up


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

no they would not be HERE....we brought them here(usa)...lol
north america had honey bees before man, nature killed them off
The ice sheets melted and away went the mammoth, yea for benevolent mother nature.
the fosscal record is full of things nature killed off before the rize of man, who is no more or less the product of nature.
nature kills off stuff all the time, always has, always will.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

msl


> no she talked to EXPERTS in the field…. Dr. Dennis vanEngelsdorp of the BeeInformed Partnership, EAS Certified Beekeeper Dr. Wayne Esaias, founder of HoneyBeeNet , Her neighbor who is a federal entomolitagist. And they walked her threw the postmordum
> Rember the mites took out an entire apiary of bees 10 hives that had been treated form mites late summer, then crashed. This was not just coming from her neighbor, the entire apiary crashed


I did not say her hives did not die from mites, I said what she was using for proof was not proved. 

Quote from her artical


> The funky activity was probably my girls robbing the heck out of Dr. Steve. I think I know where that extra super of honey came from, now. And there had probably been a Domino Effect of crashing hives across the Arboretum, as each colony shared the infested wealth. I know as an unfortunate fact that the area around the Garden features a number of treatment- and test-free beekeepers, some by ideology, some by indolence. Plus, Washington, DC is one huge overlapping forage area now.


If that kind of thinking adds up to proof of what happened then we would all be in jail everytime somebody thought they knew something.

I could jump to the conclusion that she had a bad batch of treatment or did not follow the directions and be just as correct factually as she is. 

In the end to your point of doing your own counts if that is what flotes your boat, that is about all you really have control of not matter what all those experts you mention say can happen. The only way those experts can be sure or which hive is a mite bomb compared to some swarm that forages the same flowers (yes there are studies that show mite transfer this way) is if they had the hives in a bee proof building and put there test hives in it and took measurements. In the end, the true point is that the original thread says that 54 % of the bee keepers did not treat in the last 12 months.

So you can know the sience of posibilities but when you start picking the one thing that you have convinced your self of, that it is your bad bee keeper neigbor, Maby you are right or maby his hive got the same way from some swarm or he missed some treatment window or or or.

If you have to rely on your neibor to act just like you for you to be successful in keeping bees, you may be dissapointed a whole bunch.

If it was a vote based on the article, 54% is more then 46% no matter what you wish it would be.
Cheers
gww


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

So you'll compare a continental cataclysmic event that exterminated most everything to honey bees vs varroa. Lulz, keep trying


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

umm no, not at all. 
extinction is a natural part of evolution, some one wins the niche some one loses, survival of the species is on the line and one species dies out



gww said:


> In the end, the true point is that the original thread says that 54 % of the bee keepers did not treat in the last 12 months.


ok so thats true?... great!
what it said in its entirety was


> In a sample survey, he found that 56% of beekeepers had not used varroa-control products in the previous twelve months. For some hobbyists, not treating for varroa and losing, say, nine of ten colonies doesn’t matter too much. However, the impact does not stop at their own apiary.


thats refering to the BIP, must be his new numbers
here was last years numbers, some years NT "back yard" (<50 hives) has been as high as 60%. 










gww said:


> If it was a vote based on the article, 54% is more then 46% no matter what you wish it would be.


more like 56% of the bee keepers with only 3% of the hives causing 90% of the problems... look a the total hives manged line on the chart
The simple fact is if people in high density areas controlled there mites effectively we would not be talking about this 

expert after expert, study after study, people still put there head in the sand The simple fat is if it wasn't true, mites would not have spread as fast and easly , MP's example of how fast they jumped from yard to yard with out bringing in new bees telly you just that

I have asked for, and have yet to recive a link to a single study that shows a mite infested colony does not impact others in a high density setting...AKA your neighbors hives in a urban/suburban setting as bolth of these 2 bee culture arecials are refering to.. 
we are not talking out in the country were you may just have a few ferals in flight range, and no one cares what you do to your bees there as it dosent effect any one.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

msl
You are right and I do live in the country. I do think there are people with hives around and in the two mile flight range. I don't know how many but know that some treat and some don't. You mention counts and big bee keepers. Micheal palmer may count a percentage of hives but does not make it a priority for every hive and basicaly treats one a year. That leaves a thousand chances that some hives become mite bombs and some swarms get away. Randy oliver makes mite bombs because he can not do his studies other wise. He probly has out yards but I doubt controls such a big area that others can not be affected.

You talk about an impact that a person that doesn't stay on top or experments his self as being a draw on his neibor.

I say even if true, the impact is no bigger then the other ways people keep bees. It might even be better cause if it kills the hive, it takes a lot of mites and thier viruses with it. Even when treated, the knock down is only about 90% and the mites don't go away. 

Micheal bush only counts when he gets inspected to sell some hives. 

You mention all these guys positions and I have heard them and watched all the vidio. It has nothing to do with sticking your head in the sand and more to do with the math of the situation and common sense. It might be a lofty goal to try and train the world to keep bees in a certain way but it will never be reality. The guy that found the five hives that were alone for five years after his dad died and still alive is probly not caring one wit about them being mite bombs all those years. The back yard guy that had a 60% loss like you pointed out probly doesn't care either if he started with two hives and ended up with four. The fact that he could have had 6 or 8 proby does not bother him because he doesn't want that many anyway. 

I don't discount compleetly the fact that mites transfer in some way no more then I discount that no matter how you keep bees you still have mites.

All this arguement about who is hurting the bees the most could never end because stones with merit could be throw everywhere.

In the end, you should keep some bees and when you teach you can show your method for why you are successful. If you live in an area like an urban area then you have to reconize what you are up against and take measure to reflect the things you can not control.

Even in a urban area fingers could be pointed, say your hive is really healthy and you let a swarm get away from your treated bees compared to the guy whos hive was too sick to swarm. In the end you both have the same effect as far as possible mite bombs are concerned although if the person with the sick hives bees learn to handle the pressure, they may be sending better drone out for mating then you are.

It never ends. Nothing wrong with the sience and knowing as much of it as you can. The finger pointing and blaming is a waste of effort. If some one likes what you are doing and copies you, then he may get the bennifit but of course if your swarms that get away are more dangerous or your drones that breed are hurting the big picture, then maby you are helping him short term. 

The people that are successful and so have the status to present views from a successful platform but an outsider adding up all the people who have success and the differrent ways thay have it may put a differrent math to it. The successful guys lumps have made him an athourity but several are successful and don't all do it the same way. I am not sure they should feel bad and feel successful at the same time.

The one thing I will give in this arguement is that the guy with a hive has a chance to decide to do more or let them go and doing more won't hurt those around him in any way.
Cheers
gww

Ps I have yet to see a study that treated bees don't hurt the breeding pool of the bees becoming resistant. Not nessasarily my belief but "just saying".  You mentioned a study you haven't seen.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

gww said:


> Ps I have yet to see a study that treated bees don't hurt the breeding pool of the bees becoming resistant. Not necessarily my belief but "just saying". You mentioned a study you haven't seen.


ummm
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/...9.2016.1160709
you have seen it, you had me write you the cliff notes 


gww said:


> msl
> I went to the link and skim read it. On my computer, it cut me down to reading a couple of sentences at a time because half the screen was blocked by something I couldn't close. I never was good with charts. Could you give a short overview of what you thought the study was saying in language that a real dummy might understand?


They were able to create and maintain the TF stock by queen selection only while open mating in proximity to commercial treated stock and use there TF stock in a commercial setting over a long period of time and able to export the TF stock in to other populations and locations using cells and virgins and matin said stock in a different area with different drones but still in proximity to treated commercial stock in a situagion were the TF stock didn't domante the DCAs, they only kept a bout 20 hives per site.




gww said:


> Randy oliver makes mite bombs because he can not do his studies other wise. He probly has out yards but I doubt controls such a big area that others can not be affected


there is a huge difrance between allowing a colony to become infested, and then treating it back below threshold so you can see the difrance between 95% and 97% clearly, and allowing a colony to be robbed out and collapse under its mites.



gww said:


> The guy that found the five hives that were alone for five years after his dad died and still alive is probly not caring one wit about them being mite bombs all those years


Sigh... 5 lost hives going it them selfs in the woods vs what.... a million dead last year in the US alone?
good stock, propagate from it 



gww said:


> The one thing I will give in this arguement is that the guy with a hive has a chance to decide to do more or let them go and doing more won't hurt those around him in any way.


fair enough

I guess the best way I can frame it.... In low population density areas no one cares if you dog is off the leash, or if you pick up after it, or if it barks when your not home. If you live in condo.... the rules are different. 
It changes how you keep your dog, why would it not change how you keep your bees.
Were I grew up no one would blink If some one sat in the back garden with a book and a .22 poping groundhogs every now and then, in fact that was the norm. 



gww said:


> Even when treated, the knock down is only about 90% and the mites don't go away.


Ok , say your treatment threshold is 5%, 90% of 5% is 0.045%, a lot less mites then the 17% mite load you were talking about in the IMP thread about see if they could make it 
this isn't TF vs T , this is bad practices vs better for the given situation (witch is not the one you keep bees in) 

but the long and short, is unless you have super bees, in the high density situation is the TF keeper is more of a threat, and at more risk then a dilaget treating keeper.
This is why the TF needs to be BETTER and more skilled bee keeper, and the HAVERS on bolth sides of the road are a threat to both the TF and T keeper. 

the issue is to many do nothing havers claim TF status and soil the name. Going TF with package bees in high density area has predicable results. Beekeeping with out a mite plan has predicable results in high density areas. 

yes I think we all point and say the mites are thicker on the other side of the fence.
The person who does regular rolls knows were thier hives stand....be it TF or T, the ones that don't point and blame.... and as GWW makes a valid point, we don't have pre and post treatment mite counts on the DC example


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Although I think there is more awareness these days among small-scale beekeepers (whether hobbyist, or not) about the dangers of mites, I am not, yet, seeing matching action plans to deal with them. 

But even that is an improvement from when I started about five years ago, as you can't fix what you don't know - or won't acknowledge - is a problem.

Coping successfully with mites in your hives isn't some mysterious, difficult thing to do. You just monitor continually and treat at appropriate times of the year with effective products. And abandon the wishful thinking that you can somehow escape reality. It doesn't make any difference that beekeepers didn't formerly have to do this. Now you do. Get over it, or find another occupation.

When I was at the NYBeeWellness Conference last summer one of the speakers described beeks who let their bees die from mites and mite-vectored diseases every year, as _serial killers_. 

Enj.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

msl said:


> Robbing of a colony that is collapsing or severing weakened by Varroa. This is what I think of when using the term mite bomb…. Been there my self, surprise fall flow, hives that then crash form no were over winter
> 
> Atack- I had not hurd this till a bit ago, Erik Osterlund put forth that when a colony absconds do to mites they attempt to usurp a hive elce were.. From Wyatt Magnum we know bees can do a late summer usurpation swarm ..


wonderful post, I would have copied it all but Barry wouldn't like it


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

enjambres said:


> Although I think there is more awareness these days among small-scale beekeepers (whether hobbyist, or not) about the dangers of mites, I am not, yet, seeing matching action plans to deal with them.


actually around here, after the mite wipe out this past winter, more people are interested in actually trying to control mites, we will see how long it goes and how effective it will be.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

msl
That was a good and well thought out responce.

Enj
The thing about bees is that the only reason poeple keep them is because the want something from them.

Mel disselkoen (I am sure spelled wrong) likes to say that he is an agracultural guy. He makes money from bees. So if he makes four sping starts off of one colony and then comes back and makes four more starts (splits and new queens) after the spring equinox, he has the potential of a thousand dollars income per hive. When makeing these he knows the potential of several of them dieing due to thier size but also know the ones that live are going to have very fresh queens going into spring which will help do it again. He is playing a numbers game that he has found gives him more (since he is not into honey production) bees. Lots of honey producers kill a queen each fall. You name your queens and have your avenue to get where you want to go.

Serial killer is strong when talking about what some keep as an agracultural produt and manage toward that goal. 

When I was a kid and we raised a few hogs. If we had a sow that had thirteen pigglets or one of the pigglets was a runt, we would bring it in the house and bottle feed every two hours. The hog operation that has 30,000 sows I am pretty sure is not going to handle that same situation the way we did because they are not going to hire extra help to bottle feed runts.

Some people in super cold areas ran thier operations by buying package bees every year and then in fall taking every thing they made and let the bees die and as long as the packages didn't cost more then the honey they could make and sell, they would keep repeating the proccess.

To me, it is hard to say that I am the moral one that is going to heaven and those other beekeepers are going to hell.

I see the common sense in your thinking for what you are doing but if those other guys have learned how to turn a dollar on bees in a differrent fassion, it is still a lot of work and I don't fault them for it.

Lots of people dicide the cost of work and money to bennifit in agracultural settings.

Most people look at thier actions from where they are standing.

Cheers
gww

Ps msl I was serious to you when I told you this winter if all my bees end up dead, I will not mind if you post I told you so. Just so you know that I value your imput but still have to work things out in my own mind and my own fassion. I enter these discussions based on what I know or have read up to this point of my evolution in bee keeping.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

In my view, we could all benefit from a little more alignment between beekeepers. As long as our efforts are in conflict, things are slow to improve.

I don't think there's any doubt that we'd all like to have bees that are mite resistant. I think we'd all like genetics to take care of the mite problem, but what I've seen over the last 10 years or so suggests that few people really understand what 'breeding' honeybees actually entails. There are a whole lot of enthusiastic, well-meaning and misinformed beekeepers out there who think that by simply not treating and doing walk-away splits each year, they are 'breeding' their own stock, and moving toward mite resistance. I'm not going to say that without admitting that I was once one of those naive people.

The fact is, if you don't have enough stock to cover enough area, at high enough numbers to form the majority, then you're going to get washed out genetically by other bees in that area.

Therefore, it means that only beekeepers with large enough operations, or coordinated efforts among many beekeepers are really able to do the job.

Now, you may say "but what about I.I.?" and I'd say that still, even if you use Instrumental Insemination, unless you're dominating the area with your resistance stock, the number of non-treating keepers around you will put undue stress on your bees and skew your efforts.

You can keep bees treatment free, but after doing it myself for years, I'd say that whatever success you have is as much luck as it is anything, and unless you're pretty isolated from other bees, or you're using I.I., then it really has little to do with your selection efforts.

Here in Vermont, Craigslist is swamped with ads from people rolling into the area each spring and dumping thousands of new colonies of bees from areas far outside this region. How is anyone expecting to make any meaningful 'breeding' progress in that? Even for guys like Mike Palmer, it's got to be an uphill battle, when your neighbors are buying a rainbow of garbage from who knows where each spring and setting them up all around you. And if it's a challenge for an experienced expert with over 1000 hives, then what hope does someone with only 50 hives or less have for 'breeding'?

Then there are the commercial efforts. If one big operation is focused on breeding resistant stock, and the next is making a model out of buying cheap imports every spring, one's going a long way to canceling out the other. And too often, a competitive grudge will keep them from talking to each other or coordinating.

In my opinion, what we need to see are more focus on buying queens from locally established breeders in favor of the tractor trailer loads of packages and imported nucs. Beyond that, we need to promote clarity on what it actually means to breed honeybees, so that new beekeepers aren't chasing unrealistic goals and unwittingly hindering more informed and better-equipped efforts.

We also need to encourage and promote collaborative regional efforts to breed bees through competent and experienced beekeepers, and those efforts need to communicate with area beekeepers to make their intentions known and promote cooperation.

Mites are not the only thing bees need to survive. Each region is a complex set of issues. Environmental and human.

Adam


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I just saw a hive yesterday at a commercial place that had high mite counts during a demonstration during a field day. These bees would have just come off treatment and there were rumblings about maybe amitraz was starting to lose its effectiveness. The owner is a respected member of the community and is very knowledgeable. He advocates treating, but never mentions the need for resistant stock and doesn't do much from what I see to improve his own in this regard. He sells nucs to newbies with Hawaiian queens. If they follow his advice about treating, then they may do ok. But what if they get it wrong? What if they get bees at 3 % before the season even begins? Mite bombs. 

The problem is not just hard bond people who are working with resistant stock. ITS THE ENTIRE BEEKEEPING COMMUNITY!!

The industry is built out of cracked glass creaking under its unsustainable weight. It needs to stop looking for scapegoats and pay proper attention to genetics, ecology, environment, and epidemiology. Yes, there are short term, small scale local issues with hard bond strategies and it would be nice to have more strategies to deal with them. But the bigger issue is lack of attention to resistance on the larger scale and the non stop swamping of non resistant genetics and the introduction of new pests, viruses/virus variants from other regions/continents and keeping bees in a manner the promotes virus virulence. 

As to the point about back yard beekeepers not able to contribute. Selection pressure needs to be maintained throughout the system. For people that don't understand this, I suggest reading Dawkins, "the blind watch maker". There is an obvious inference in that title about how evolution and adaptation works.


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

Keep those crackhead bees up there is all I can say


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

exmar said:


> I was TF for about seven years, started seeing mites went with OA dribble, couple of years later, saw more mites, bought a OxaVap and will now treat as needed. Emotionally I'd like to see something change in the big picture, intellectually, I accept that I can only attempt to control my very, very minute portion of it.


That´s what happened in europe. Beekeepers trying to keep up their profits started to fight varroa, a pest the bee industry and science had invited. They believed they could eliminate the threat but the only outcome was the extinction of native bees and the development of "livestock" honey and profit races.

Now treatments must be done the whole year and the losses are high again still all heads are in the sand. Beekeepers methods, veterinary laws and science celebrating themselves prevent a new approach and the settling of ferals.

More and more sidelines and commercials give up because the costs of treating are higher than the profits. The younger people are open to new ideas so maybe the trends will change the beekeeping to a more natural one, maybe even without any chemicals.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Here's the way I see this issue in my area. My bees have varroa. I see them on occasion, especially on drones. Whether those drones are from my hives or not, who knows. These same bees have been going for 4 seasons now, 0 treatments. Highest registered mite count on a sugar roll done properly was 7% last Fall. I'm not going to start treating now. If my drones go to a neighbor's hive who bought the purtiest package of Italian honey makers you ever laid eyes on, but couldn't hack a 3% mite count to which the colony succumbed, which could directly be traced to my drones, who's to blame here? I'd clearly think he should have kept locally adapted bees. He clearly sees me as a careless, mite bombing anarchist. See the problem here?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

nordac


> Here's the way I see this issue in my area. My bees have varroa. I see them on occasion, especially on drones. Whether those drones are from my hives or not, who knows. These same bees have been going for 4 seasons now, 0 treatments. Highest registered mite count on a sugar roll done properly was 7% last Fall. I'm not going to start treating now. If my drones go to a neighbor's hive who bought the purtiest package of Italian honey makers you ever laid eyes on, but couldn't hack a 3% mite count to which the colony succumbed, which could directly be traced to my drones, who's to blame here? I'd clearly think he should have kept locally adapted bees. He clearly sees me as a careless, mite bombing anarchist. See the problem here?


And in the end people are going to do what best suits them and some will be successful no matter what others opinions are and some won't no matter which path they start on and so my view is that it is hard for me to say somebody is wrong when there are examples out there that prove that for what they want to accomplish, they are successful. It would be hard to argue with a guy who knows what he has regaurdless of how others are doing it. It makes right and wrong pretty muddy when examples can be found on all sides of success, or at least success that is good enough for the guy actually doing it.

I just can't seem to be able to leap past that conclusion at this time. It seems to be the unsuccessful people who still have a problim.( this is a mediforic statement and not saying anyone person is unsuccessful) (add that even successful people take some lumps )
Cheers
gww


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Nordak said:


> Here's the way I see this issue in my area........


:thumbsup:

God, what a great post! You are an example to me, Jeff.

I really believe Mike Palmer started this thread to have us going like gladiators, because maybe he is bored?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> because maybe he is bored?


 Perhaps because he too is fighting the internal battle of knowing that genetic resistance is the only viable solution over the long term yet he has to make a living in the meantime.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

gww and Sibylle,

Thanks for seeing the point behind my post. It seems it was received as intended. Like you gww, I don't see it as a good guy, bad guy issue. The mites are here to stay. Pointing fingers at new guys, seasoned pros or folks keeping log hives in downtown San Fran ain't gonna change that.


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

> Perhaps because he too is fighting the internal battle of knowing that genetic resistance is the only viable solution over the long term yet he has to make a living in the meantime.


 we can hope this can become the norm for the people that have the biggest influence on the situation before we breed mites and viruses that are unkillable without killing the bees themselves


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

Food for thought https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DUFDXl8VGvs


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Nordak, I don't see the problem at all...
You have done your counts, you know were your stock sits, none are about to collapse or get robed out. You are a good beekeeper doing TF in a responsible manor. 
Drifting can't be helped and its not the focus of most “mite bomb” topic’s, all bees have mites.



lharder said:


> He sells nucs to newbies with Hawaiian queens. If they follow his advice about treating, then they may do ok. But what if they get it wrong? What if they get bees at 3 % before the season even begins? Mite bombs.


 if they get it wrong its no worse then if they follow some ones advice to go bond with those bees. 



lharder said:


> The problem is not just hard bond people who are working with resistant stock. ITS THE ENTIRE BEEKEEPING COMMUNITY!!.


yes, but when you have one side pushing a hard bond l in a completely unsuited environment and ralinging against using mite counts to protect your nehobors from you experiments its no wonder people see TF as mite bombing anarchists, because it would seem, some are…. that is very damaging to those who are actually doing TF work and have a plan beyond putting a hive in the back yard and seeing what happens to it 



Adam Foster Collins said:


> There are a whole lot of enthusiastic, well-meaning and misinformed beekeepers out there who think that by simply not treating and doing walk-away splits each year, they are 'breeding' their own stock, and moving toward mite resistance.


bingo…
In the area under discussion (urban/suburban HD beekeeping) the high mite pressures and low hive counts per beekeeper (2-4) makes sort of breeding by bond a ridiculous proposal 


lharder said:


> The problem is not just hard bond people who are working with resistant stock. ITS THE ENTIRE BEEKEEPING COMMUNITY!!.


yes, but when you have one side pushing a hard bond l in a completely unsuited environment and ralinging against using mite counts to protect your nehobors from you experiments its no wonder people see TF as mite bombing anarchists, because it would seem, some are…. that is very damaging to those who are actually doing TF work and have a plan beyond putting a have in the back yard and seeing what happens to it 

its simple, in this setting when a hive is getting over run, do something about it….treat it if you a treater, ethnize it if your TF…its going to die anyway, don’t let it become a problem for others. 

The very real danger here is its mite bombs this year, and AFB or EFB bombs next. We dodged the bullet in the denver metro area this year, 2 AFB cases... was it contained or is the cat out of the bag? guess we shale see 
Given how easy it is to confuse EFB with PMS its a scary prospect if their plan is to be 007 and let it ride.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> Perhaps because he too is fighting the internal battle of knowing that genetic resistance is the only viable solution over the long term yet he has to make a living in the meantime.


Well this dilemma exists for over 30 years now in germany and was never solved.
What is the result?

A new medication from bayer or monsanto? Maybe if they give it for free beekeepers will use it or they have no profit!

Near me a sideliner beekeeper stores his honey in the cellar because there is no market. You know why? Honey from rumania or other eastern countries is cheaper! Do they treat? No, live and let die, or the treatments still work or they can use EU treatments which are not so strictly demanded as with german laws!

I hope you will never have this experience!

Genetic resistance would develop very fast if all beekeepers would start bond at the same moment. 

And not locally. It would develop everywhere.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

msl

AFB spores are present almost everywhere in germany. Only weak bees succumb to this. Why are they weak? No mite and virus resistance, sugar feeding, managements, robbing....
Hives that are able to overcome this disease are burned. Genetics are eliminated.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

> Nordak, I don't see the problem at all...


And I would expect that answer from you. Others might see it entirely differently. One man's perception of a mite bomb going off might be a small fizzle to someone else.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Mike Allsopp:


> Left to their own devices African honeybees may be able to accommodate the mite as they appear to have done with other honeybee diseases. It is expected that large numbers of African honeybee colonies will die as a result of varroa, both in the wild and managed bee populations, but thereafter, resistance to the mite is expected to develop rapidly in these populations. As varroa-resistant bees would produce more swarms and drones, the resistance should spread through the population and simply allowing natural selection to take its course should result in African honeybees becoming tolerant to the varroa mite. The economic demand for commercial honeybee colonies will, however, dictate that beekeepers treat colonies with varroacides should honeybee losses become considerable. This will artificially sustain the susceptible honeybee population, and will retard the development and spread of a naturally-selected varroa-resistant population.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Here is an article by Mike Allsopp that is worth reading about bee pests and diseases. http://www.arc.agric.za/arc-ppri/Pages/Insect Ecology/Honeybee-Pests-and-Diseases.aspx


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

dtrooster said:


> Food for thought https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DUFDXl8VGvs


Very interesting, thanks for posting that. Hopefully that is a way forward. However, this back yard hobbyist will keep treating until the scientific/beekeeping community develops a better way. Thankfully, I did a lot of reading and took a beginner's course before I started on this adventure. I have been shocked at the amount of posts on here by beginners asking "why did my bees die" and the vast majority of them did not know about mites or worse, knew about them but thought their bees would somehow be unaffected by them. Yes, they may just be bugs, but if you are keeping them, you have taken on a responsibility. My comments aren't directed at dtrooster or the vid, just commenting on the subject in general. J


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

"Bug" is one of those english words that works overtime.

1. There is the true bug, a hemipteran, hemipteron. a hemipterous insect.
2. (loosely) any insect or insectlike invertebrate.
3.Informal. any microorganism, especially a virus: He was laid up for a week by an intestinal bug.
4. Informal. a defect or imperfection, as in a mechanical device, computer program, or plan; glitch: The test flight discovered the bugs in the new plane.
5. Informal.
a person who has a great enthusiasm for something; fan or hobbyist:
a hi-fi bug.
a craze or obsession:
He's got the sports-car bug.
6. Informal.
a hidden microphone or other electronic eavesdropping device.
any of various small mechanical or electrical gadgets, as one to influence a gambling device, give warning of an intruder, or indicate location.
7. a mark, as an asterisk, that indicates a particular item, level, etc. verb (used with object), bugged, bugging. Informal.
8. to install a secret listening device in (a room, building, etc.) or on (a telephone or other device): The phone had been bugged.
9. to bother; annoy; pester:She's bugging him to get her into show business.
10.bug off, Slang. to leave or depart, especially rapidly: I can't help you, so bug off.
11. bug out, Slang. to flee in panic; show panic or alarm.
12. put a bug in someone's ear, to give someone a subtle suggestion; hint: We put a bug in his ear about a new gymnasium.


No matter who or where you are, there is a bug in your future.

People bugged me about having a bug for bugs until I told them to bug off while I bugged out.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

SiWolKe said:


> I really believe Mike Palmer started this thread to have us going like gladiators, because maybe he is bored?


You don't know Michael Palmer if that's what you really think. I choose to believe that you are attempting to be humorous.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Fivej said:


> I have been shocked at the amount of posts on here by beginners asking "why did my bees die" and the vast majority of them did not know about mites or worse, knew about them but thought their bees would somehow be unaffected by them. J


Read this and wonder no more. http://www.beeweaver.com/our-bees

Alex


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Charlestonbee said:


> What do you suggest doing with these "yellow" bee hives. The ones that are collapsing and you see it coming. I try to keep my mite numbers as low as possible but inevitably I have a couple that for whatever reason succumb to mites. Also once they are pretty much gone what do you do with remaining combs and bees? How long before reusing these combs in other hives? I have access to reefer units but they aren't mine. I put supers in there but don't want to hassle my buddy w 1-5 hives worth of comb.


Burn it all!


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

The issue is not TF Vs T no matter how both sides try to leverage it for political clout 
its people on both sides not monitoring there mites in HD areas, AKA bad beekeeping 

Most of the issues are cased by NTBS (not treating but should) newbies with just a few hives that leave treated stock out to die, either because they are ignorant of mites, or mistakenly expect some how james bond will come parachuting in to save the day from there poor stock choice

This is exasperated by some of the TF world taking offence and aggressively attacking the idea that TF keepers in HD areas should monitor there mites, as if it will some how delegitimize or set back TF beekeeping. 
They cloak their arguments around "section", "development", and "breeding" and outer fanciful concepts that have zero bearing on the target audience. The new beekeeper with 2-4 hives in a HD area isn't going to be selecting for much of anything, and even if they do there home work and bring in magic TF stock, they can be mite bombed to the stone age. 

Counts don't just protect other bee keepers from your mistakes, its about protecting your TF stock from them as well.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Msl
I realize that I live in the boonies. I understand your position. I personally am not going to count mites untill I have an autopsy or two to perform and then if after seeing for myself I may change that practice. I reiterate that I don't believe by listening to his vidios that micheal palmer counts mite of every hive. Michael, this is your thread and I have no intention to put words in your mouth.

kirk websters has said it is a dream to no longer have to put up with that time consuming task. Micheal bush does not count except when he has his hives inspected to sell. Mel disselkoen does not count and considers the death of those hives in winter to be a favor to him.

I am not saying these guys have never counted mites. I am not saying these guys don't have enough experiance to see what is going on in a hive to know when they are hurting enough to know with out counts or to take a count in a too late situation just for info. They have much more experiance to relie on perhaps to skip some things that prove what they already know by just looking. I am not saying that I would be up to that level of bee keeper.

I see your point but my take on it is I want to see it for myself and take my hits and then adjust from there. One of those hits wether cruel or what ever is to watch the stages to the very end and hopefully learn from what I see. 

If it is any consulation. I probly would not repeat this experment too many times because I would be too cheap to keep replacing bees that I by then know are going to die every time and so I would either change my practice or quit. You mention in the other thread that those are the guys that you buy the $30 dollar hives from. So if there is a mite bomb, it surly is short term cause I doubt to many just keep repeating that mistake.

All the guys mentioned above know mites can kill hives. I know mites can kill hives. My problim still comes down to the only guys hives I have ever personaly seen does not count or treat. I am willing to take it on faith that it is going to work and so I intent to consintrate on keeping the stupid bees in the box in spring and when my flows are and when the derth is and just general timeing. I am going to studie all these other things including treatment but am going to play this hand out untill I see for myself. 

I don't mind having a fall back plan but am going to see the first one through first.

If I have made my mind up that I am not going to treat untill I feel some pain then it just seems a waste of time to count and when and if I change that position because I had some lumps to bear, I will probly know wether my treatments are working at the schedual I am treating with out taking multiple counts.

I could uncap a couple drones and see what is there what I can't see is what the bees can really take untill I see them fail a few times.

I don't say that it will work or that even if it works for me that it will work for others. I don't say that if it works for me that I am smart more then just lucky. I don't discount that others have tried it and it didn't work for them. I don't say that I bred the perfect bee (although I do have dissagreement with those that say that can't happen in those city type places cause they may be mistaking things in the enviroment or local plants and such impacts)

I just say that the only bees I have ever seen in real life are kept that way by a 20 year small bee keeper. Thats the faith that I am willing to relie on untill I prove it can not be done.

I know your placement of the importance of mite counts for all, but it is a waste of time untill you plan on using it for some bennifit. I really do understand your arguements and your post to me earlier was very well thought out and had merrit. The problim is, I still intend to follow through on my plan untill I change my goals.

I want to here the view and your reasons for it cause I like haveing a plan A and a plan B and a plan C but I also know that when I switch to those plans that others are going to be starting like me and so it will never go away and there will always be enough blame to be able to put on every practice out there.

I wish I had the tallent to say things that could be understood with fewer words along the lines of nordac, but that and spelling is something that is missing in my make up dang it.
Cheers
gww

ps Several of randies olivers hives collapsed compleetly to dead before he started the studie beyond taltic. Taking it to the edge.

Ps ps Some coloneys have to die some time, I started with three and even while trying to keep them together (bad bee keeping) I am sitting on seven and gave one away. At that pace of increase if something didn't kill them a little there would be nothing but bees in the world. I am only half jesting in this statement. Bees are amazing.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

gww said:


> I realize that I live in the boonies. I understand your position. I personally am not going to count mites untill I have an autopsy or two to perform and then if after seeing for myself I may change that practice.


I call that lazy beekeeping, but your in the boonies, your bees your choice.
don't get me wrong, my complete attraction to TF was lazy beekeeping, My curant attitude is it work to be a successful TF keeper, more work then being a treating keeper. 



gww said:


> I reiterate that I don't believe by listening to his vidios that micheal palmer counts mite of every hive.


I would agree with that asscement
But your talking about a highly experienced beekeeper runing his own mite restaint stock. He can tell if a hive is doing well or poorly by just looking at it
A noob with suspect stock can't. And your talking a complitly different environment. Threw the power of the internet I can't tell 




gww said:


> Micheal bush does not count except when he has his hives inspected to sell.


MB runs sticky boards, and doesn't have dozens of other beekeepers near him.... the boonies, it matters


> I use the small cell/natural cell and Screened Bottom Boards (SBB) and I monitor the mites with a white board under the SBB


 http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm





gww said:


> I am not saying these guys don't have enough experiance to see what is going on in a hive to know when they are hurting enough to know with out counts or to take a count in a too late situation just for info. They have much more experiance to relie on perhaps to skip some things that prove what they already know by just looking. I am not saying that I would be up to that level of bee keeper.


Bingo
Now turn that around, counts can fast track your learning curve




gww said:


> I want to here the view and your reasons for it cause I like haveing a plan A and a plan B and a plan C


and having a plan is a large chunk of the battel and puts you well ahead of many


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I read a couple of old time books and so was looking at the differrent way of bee keeping and more then one way to skin a cat.

Miller did not go for max production per individual hive but more went for big numbers of hives even if less productive he still got more. He did pick his breeders though. 

It seemed like doolittle went for bigger hives but was big on trying to make them all the same size. He wanted bigg numbers of pounds of honey per hive.

All those old guys knew what each other were doing but all had thier own ideals on how they wanted to do it.
Cheers
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

msl


> I call that lazy beekeeping, but your in the boonies, your bees your choice.
> don't get me wrong, my complete attraction to TF was lazy beekeeping, My curant attitude is it work to be a successful TF keeper, more work then being a treating keeper.


Lazy yes but not nessasarily the reason. I am a slow learner. I have studied for two years and still did not keep my bees in my hives. I still have not found a queen on comb with out help. I can read everything and still be lost while actually putting it into practice. It is nice to not reinvent the wheel but some times that does not work that well.

Last year I caught two small swarms. Now I was new and cheap and really didn't want to lose them but I also knew nothing. So I did not feed them during build up. I knew there was a little risk of them not being ready by winter but I also did not know what normal was, what bees would do speed wise, when the flows were. I figure by not feeding them even knowing there may be more risk that I could watch them and maby learn the flow a bit.

This year I caught swarms of simular size. I am feeding them during the brood nest comb drawing. I will now have a basis to judge what the differrance is compared to what I did last year.

It is a process of learning for yourself that reading just can not give you. You can read something and than do it and have it work or you can test it and then you know it works and learned some base lines to boot.

I have read a lot but every time I get around the bees, shows me I have not learned alot. But you are correct, I am lazy and wanting to streamline the process to where I can see as good as any commecial guy. I only know one way to do that and that is to test things to see what the base lines are.

Just so you know, I worked for somebody else for 30 years and I don't want to be a commercial guy, I just want to learn enough that I could tell myself I could be one if I wanted to.

I am lazy too though. I like bees but the learning is kind of exciting also. And yes, I admit to being pretty dumb right now. I do think that since I don't have the experiances that each of the above beekeepers through doing that I have a smorgussboard of ideals that I have to weed through to move forward to the errors I will make so that in the end, my experiance will also be got with some doing. My knowlage base makes me look at all practices as possible untill the rude awakenings are truly mine. 

I respect guys with thier feet in the game and try to steal from all of them the things I can try with the goal of eventually being successful in my own right.
Cheers
gww


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

sqkcrk said:


> You don't know Michael Palmer if that's what you really think. I choose to believe that you are attempting to be humorous.


Sorry I forgot the smiley 
I have much respect for all seasoned beekeepers, tf or not.

But IMO the gap between different opinions must be closed, not intensified. Randy and Erik know that. They try to find a way to reconcile the beekeepers.

If this is of importance to them, how important is the reconciliation between different methods of tf beekeeping?

Bee colonies die and throw mite bombs. Treated or not treated. Mite resistant bees should be prepared to be able to fight this and not to be protected by beekeeper managements.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

gww said:


> I respect guys with thier feet in the game and try to steal from all of them the things I can try with the goal of eventually being successful in my own right.
> Cheers
> gww


All of my best ideas are stolen. Actually, make that, all of my ideas are stolen. If I ever had an original thought I later found out someone before me did too.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

SiWolKe said:


> Sorry I forgot the smiley
> I have much respect for all seasoned beekeepers, tf or not.
> 
> But IMO the gap between different opinions must be closed, not intensified. Randy and Erik know that. They try to find a way to reconcile the beekeepers.
> ...


  Good


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> All of my best ideas are stolen. Actually, make that, all of my ideas are stolen. If I ever had an original thought I later found out someone before me did too.


"As it was in the beginning, it is now and will be forever and ever, Amen".


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> All of my best ideas are stolen. Actually, make that, all of my ideas are stolen. If I ever had an original thought I later found out someone before me did too.


Ah, but the difference is in the delivery!


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

The only time I monitor for mites is when I am doing OAV treatments: I do an OAV application and then monitor the sticky board over the next few days. If I see a large mite fall, I will do another treatment. Repeat until I see few mites after an OAV application.

When I do this during a broodless period, the 2nd OAV application usually comes out pretty clean and I am done.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

many great arguments, but I can tell you when I drive by the apiary that I'm pretty sure started the collapse in my area last fall, and I see another batch of new hives in the field, ya get this really sick feeling in your stomach, and the person that places the hives there doesn't live in the area, so no way so far to talk to them.
I guess I mite as well order MAQS to use in the middle of the year now.:waiting:


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

SiWolKe said:


> Bee colonies die and throw mite bombs. Treated or not treated. Mite resistant bees should be prepared to be able to fight this and not to be protected by beekeeper managements.


:thumbsup:


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

wildbranch2007 said:


> many great arguments, but I can tell you when I drive by the apiary that I'm pretty sure started the collapse in my area last fall, and I see another batch of new hives in the field, ya get this really sick feeling in your stomach, and the person that places the hives there doesn't live in the area, so no way so far to talk to them.
> I guess I mite as well order MAQS to use in the middle of the year now.:waiting:


There used to be Canadian keepers who used to order new bees each year, make a honey crop and let them die. Could this be the strategy of this keeper? It not about creating resistant bees, but getting a honey crop with minimal inputs. That could be a problem.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Mite resistant bees should be prepared to be able to fight this and not to be protected by beekeeper managements.


That assumes the bees are equipped to handle all the mistakes of man. The complete lack of wild bees in your area were there used to be native bees, and the long list of species that has gone extencint at the hands of man sujests this is not a given.
Cram a bunch of ANY livestock in to a HD, cramed, feedlot type condition and there are going to be problems. 
Its not just the mites, its the state of beekeeping, and there is a good chance there are/will be areas and conditions were gentinicks will not be enouff.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0142031


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

lharder said:


> There used to be Canadian keepers who used to order new bees each year, make a honey crop and let them die. Could this be the strategy of this keeper? It not about creating resistant bees, but getting a honey crop with minimal inputs. That could be a problem.


It´s done here too with the dark fall honey. Beekeepers must treat after harvesting not to contaminate the honey. This is done in july, august. They place some production hives into the fir forest and let them die after the dark honey is stored, it´s to late then for this hives to be treated. You better not ask about this methods, you will get no answer or have some enemies.
So better not keep tf bees in such an area.
By the way it´s one of the reasons some people are interested in tf! The profit! I don´t care as long as they want to be tf. But they do the winter treatments.



msl said:


> That assumes the bees are equipped to handle all the mistakes of man.


They are equipped but we don´t let them.
But some people try to help them along and start new "ferals".


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

You either evolve or you don't and go extinct. The feral bees did it; they evolved/adapted/coevolved. It very well could have went either way. 

It's man that is keeping this circle in play; "propping up" inferior ones with the use of pesticides when they should have went extinct. In the process breed a weaker bee and raise a stronger mite. 

The fact is if pesticides were never used on mites in the first place we would not need them now. And if that's not enough; but instead taking the survivors genes and incorporating them the existing stock we continue to breed and spread inferior genes across the entire planet, and displace what survivors are left.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

FlowerPlanter said:


> The fact is if pesticides were never used on mites in the first place we would not need them now.


Thats very true, either they would have evolved or all dead. In either case we would not need the pesticides now.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Thats very true, either they would have evolved or all dead. In either case we would not need the pesticides now.


 With the bees I currently have as a case example, they would be very much alive and thriving. Our commercial beekeeping enterprises would just now be recovering from bankruptcy and business collapse.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Fusion_power said:


> With the bees I currently have as a case example, they would be very much alive and thriving. Our commercial beekeeping enterprises would just now be recovering from bankruptcy and business collapse.


We'll see about that when you get all those queens out there that you are making this year. Are they for sale yet?
Should be lots of takers for bees that don't collapse. Business saving bees. Ha.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>Our commercial beekeeping enterprises would just now be recovering from bankruptcy and business collapse.

As with CCD for some, AFB in Africa, neonicotinoid in Alberta...

Many of those problems are fixed, some business survived some did not...We still have mites!

>Thats very true, either they would have evolved or all dead. In either case we would not need the pesticides now.

Either way I would still have bees


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## m0dem (May 14, 2016)

sqkcrk said:


> All of my best ideas are stolen. Actually, make that, all of my ideas are stolen. If I ever had an original thought I later found out someone before me did too.


I feel the same way. 



> What has been will be again,
> what has been done will be done again;
> there is nothing new under the sun.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

clyderoad said:


> We'll see about that when you get all those queens out there that you are making this year. Are they for sale yet?
> Should be lots of takers for bees that don't collapse. Business saving bees. Ha.


Man if I I had bees that good I would be a fool to not make atleast a 6 figure income selling queens. After you buy 2 or three times from different treatment free beekeepers you get tired of listening to new snake oil sellers. However the queens I purchased from Michael Palmer are some of the finest I have ever seen. Productive and overwinter well! Queens like that put food on the table!


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

dubble


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

And there is the rub
Lots of people bang there drum about how great there TF bees are, and then have some sort of excuse about why they are not selling queens. 
The ones willing to put queens out there and risk there reputation are few.

It becomes tiresome to keep being scolded to and told you need to go buy unobtainium. 
As if 90% of us wouldn't jump all over a solid TF stock that has been proven in our area! Likely paying dubble a queen its silly to think we would not.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

It is frustrating to me too msl. I'm not a queen breeder and have no interest in becoming one. Bill Carpenter is and sells queens. I've posted often enough here and elsewhere about the flaws my bees have. In the past, they were aggressive. Now they have problems with excessive swarming. I'm gradually getting a handle on the swarming but it will be at least 5 more years before I can get rid of the worst of the trait. Don't think I have some kind of super bee. They have very good mite resistance, but they are not bullet proof and they are not guaranteed to work everywhere. Instead of taking a sour grapes attitude, why not organize a mite resistance breeding group in your area?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> Instead of taking a sour grapes attitude, why not organize a mite resistance breeding group in your area?


:thumbsup:

Even those you might convince to try tf but still treat can take part.
They can evaluate their queens and go on with the best which need less treatments, start a more natural management, prevent drifting as much as possible or use tf queens to introduce.

They can test your queens at their location or you might find a more isolated place for mating the queens.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

not sour grapes, reality
There are places you need to be ready to defend your stock regardless of its pedigree
I was fine with my feral stock till some one put a bunch (10+) of package bees 300m from me....


> you might find a more isolated place for mating the queens.


I set up an out yard last year for that reason... But I am rethinking it... I know the mite pressure here is strong and the dencinity of ferals is much higher in urban areas then rural, there is a good chance of finding resistance were I am at. more so if the local keepers are runing foundation and suppressing drones. Not saying bomb proof but its there
Issue is the F-1s from last year are a bit hot, I have a bunch of f-2s in mateing nucs right now...have to see how they turn out


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If I have SP's situation, here is how I deal with them swarming issues. Put 3 deep boxes with the queen on the top box over a QE. The bottom 2 boxes are for honey storage. Then dump more bees from the other about to swarm hives into this 3 deeps. Continue to make production hives until the other colonies are too weak to even think about swarming. They are your broods and bees factory. Oh, I forgot to say find the queen with the biggest head you can find. They can slim her down but not the head going through the QE. One such hive I have now is going through this little warm prevention experiment. We are in the middle of the flow now and they are capping honey. Extract as soon as the honey are cap.
Many times in reality, the queen production company think they have a mite resistant operation when in fact they do not. I went through several reputable companies trying to find the mite fighting bees. So far only 1 out of many have this potential. But I'm not settling down just yet hoping to try them all to see which one is legit on their online ads. Maybe one day I will post a list of my findings on the online queen production company. I already know many will not pass my aggressive mites test I put them through (the mite bee bomb nuc hives.) The ones that pass will be going through the I.I. process to further enhance their mite fighting ability. You give me mite bomb hives I know how to deal with them!


Vsh developing cells:


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

msl said:


> not sour grapes, reality
> There are places you need to be ready to defend your stock regardless of its pedigree
> I was fine with my feral stock till some one put a bunch (10+) of package bees 300m from me....
> 
> ...


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I disagree, its well suited to IMP as a path to TF keepers who monitor mites. 
If you go classic hands off TF, the mite loads from NTBS ebbs and flows around as keepers come and go, you can crash even good stock.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> After you buy 2 or three times from different treatment free beekeepers you get tired of listening to new snake oil sellers.


How true. It's rare the back patters miss an opportunity to promote the traits of their unique bees.
Enough is enough.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

msl said:


> I disagree, its well suited to IMP as a path to TF keepers who monitor mites.
> If you go classic hands off TF, the mite loads from NTBS ebbs and flows around as keepers come and go, you can crash even good stock.


Very true any colony and any Queen no matter how good is not Invincible. anyone who says a colony can't collapse due to mites or viruses is talking BS and I don't mean beesource. This does not mean I don't believe in breeding for the best virus resistant bees that we can get but let's be realistic here folks there are people out there with more experience more invested into it and smarter than we are working on resistant queens. please save it for the treatment free section


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

still waiting for those study's to back the option that mite bombs arn't a problem in HD areas.....
till then 
https://academic.oup.com/jee/articl...ion-in-the-Spread-of-Honey-Bee?searchresult=1



> Urban colonies, most of which are owned by hobby beekeepers, are three times more likely to die than colonies located in rural areas (Youngsteadt et al. 2015).





> In varroa-infected colonies, the death of a colony results in the spread of mites by the remaining workers moving to other hives; this activity is often called a “varroa bomb” (Connor 2015). Although this finding applies to both feral and managed colonies, it shows that urban hobby beekeepers, who comprise the majority of beekeepers, albeit with a small number of hives, are faced with a far wider range of problems than their rural counterparts.


this is the point I was trying to make,urban bee keeping IS different and has a different set of needs

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-016-0431-0


> National winter loss surveys indicate that 60 % of hobby beekeepers do not treat for Varroa (Steinhauer et al. 2014). Without beekeeper Varroa management interventions, these colonies almost inevitably crash (Francis et al. 2013), releasing abundant mites that invade healthy colonies by switching from nurse bees to foragers (Cervo et al. 2014) and swapping hosts via communal foraging or robbing (Frey et al. 2011). Mite levels peak during the critical time of year, when in temperate climates, colonies must rear their winter bees to survive the coming nectar dearth and long period of confinement. From September through November, only 30–45 % of samples tested were below the three-mite threshold. Thus, more than half of all beekeepers surveyed entered the winter with elevated mite infestations, which have been shown to contribute significantly to winter colony mortality (Becher et al. 2013; Carreck et al. 2010; Francis et al. 2013; Le Conte et al. 2010; vanEng


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

exmar said:


> I was TF for about seven years, started seeing mites.....in the big picture, intellectually, I accept that I can only attempt to control my very, very minute portion of it.


 Your reply is perfect


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

msl said:


> still waiting for those study's to back the option that mite bombs arn't a problem in HD areas.....
> till then
> https://academic.oup.com/jee/articl...ion-in-the-Spread-of-Honey-Bee?searchresult=1
> 
> ...


msl - I don't always agree with your comments (and there is nothing wrong with that, BTW) but here you do a very good job of presenting your argument (and in this case, I do happen to agree with you). I wish more posters would follow this format of backing up their statements with citations. Doesn't automatically make it right, but it lends a lot more credibility.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

shinbone said:


> msl - I don't always agree with your comments (and there is nothing wrong with that, BTW)


 :thumbsup: I find I learn more from people that disagree with me then those that do.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I disagree.


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

Yeah, that's bs


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## tpope (Mar 1, 2015)

Sooo... if two of my hives show deformed wing virus symptoms and die over the winter... I have mite bombed all of my other bee hives???


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

Yep, dead


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

tpope said:


> Sooo... if two of my hives show deformed wing virus symptoms and die over the winter... I have mite bombed all of my other bee hives???


i would say no, assuming that the mites vectoring the dwv died off with the bees before they had a chance to get transferred to other hives.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

agreed, a dead hive doesn't mean it bombed, the when and how is important 
Now if you said they had DVW and got robbed out in sept I would say yes.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> i would say no, assuming that the mites vectoring the dwv died off with the bees before they had a chance to get transferred to other hives.


Why would that happen?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

msl said:


> agreed, a dead hive doesn't mean it bombed, the when and how is important
> Now if you said they had DVW and got robbed out in sept I would say yes.


Dying bees quite often, mostly I believe, leave the hive before they die. How many of them end up in other hives? Carrying that which killed them, Varroa/virus.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> Why would that happen?


my understanding is that the mites perish along with the bees, am i mistaken?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> my understanding is that the mites perish along with the bees, am i mistaken?


Most do, most likely. But what about those that migrate to other hives during the last days of the life of a colony. I imagine the major infectiousness of a varroa mite infested colony is when the colony is still robust and active.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Considering the annual cycle of growth of a population of Varroa mites, a colony within the colony, I would imagine the greatest threat to uninfested colonies of bees in the vicinity of the infested colony would be, where I live anyway, late August/ early September. When the varroa mite population is about to peak and the honeybee population is past its peak. If varroa mites haven't spread throughout an apiary or to another adjacent apiary before this, this is when it would occur, I would expect.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i believe you are correct mark. i understood tpope's question above asking about if there can be mite migration if the bee colony dies out in the cold of winter when there is no flying, and in that case i don't see how it could become a mite bomb.

on the contrary, when collapse occurs during the winter months and if the mites and viruses perish in the process, the those colony collapsing mites and viruses are eliminated from the gene pool, a good thing.

for tpope, myself, and others in our region this is how it plays out in the majority of the cases as we tend not to see many bee colonies collapsing in the fall but rather in the winter. perhaps this culling of the more virulent mites/viruses is part of how the bee population down here is having relatively better success with the mites.

does this address your question to me michael?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When a colony dies during the Winter months, months when fly is lessened in some places and does not occur in other places, yes, I believe, mites don't survive to spread to other colonies. How long the viruses are viable on or in the comb is another question.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Most of my hives that died, died during the winter. I had maybe 4 fall dwindlers last year. Two of them were in my back yard. My back yard is also home to a couple of multi year survivors that are both strong and I had good survival with my nucs in the back yard. One nuc that I kept is amazing so far. If you can imagine a frame of brood where every single cell is capped, wow. My 3 year survivor is stronger than ever. So no lethal domino effect at any rate. Not discounting "sublethal" effects. Doesn't mean I'm not concerned about it and am thinking about whether or not my management might effect viral virulence. So I will be implementing robbing screens as soon as all this spring work slows down.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Within reason, aren't you avoiding the inevitable by not utilizing that comb if it's a case of virus related crash if it were present in comb? My guess is if your bees are in close proximity to one another, they've most likely been exposed to the same viruses as the hive that succumbed to them. Or am I simplifying?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

there was a discussion on bee-l not to long ago about how long viruses last after the bees and mites have died. the consensus there was that virus viability varies a lot among viruses and there is little data available regarding the bee viruses in particular.

since i am listening for cluster roar on a more or less weekly basis through the winter months i am able to identify a collapsed colony within a matter of days from when it died. 

when that happens, i bring the equipment in and put it in the freezer and then repurpose it as needed when the bees get active again.

i've not had any obvious issues arise from using the equipment and stores repurposed from dead out colonies.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I would say it depends on the virus, some are in almost every hive, some are more rare








http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0142031
this was for urban areas, but it gives you an idea as to whats common and is more of a stress reaction, and what you may think twice about if your worried about comb transfer


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

msl said:


> I would say it depends on the virus, some are in almost every hive, some are more rare
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. It would be nice to know the "managed" category background history on this chart in the sense of how they were managed. Perhaps the study goes into greater detail. I will give it a read.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

I want to know which viruses are destroyed in a northern winter? Which are not?


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## Charlestonbee (Mar 26, 2015)

My question is what kind of freezer are you using or how many. If you have fifty colonies and 20% die that's ten colonies let's say two deeps you have to put in a freezer. Are you putting these 200 frames w boxes in a freezer or just the comb? Again what kind of freezer? Also what ab the dinks coming into spring that are eaten up by mites but not dead yet. You can condense them to a nuc box and requeen and treat but you still have possible mite bomb/disease problem. Also saving a colony with say 1000 bees left that just hasn't died yet takes time and resources that could be used on thriving colonies. Do you put bees and comb in freezer? I've put boxes and combs in freezer but this year I only had four to do that with. I'm at 28 colonies now and will pull splits to overwinter ab the same number of nucs. I'm trying to plan for what kind of freezer I'll need when I get to 50 colonies plus nuc yard.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Charlestonbee said:


> My question is what kind of freezer are you using or how many.


i've just one freezer, and it can hold 4 mediums and 2 deeps, or 3 deeps and 2 mediums. i usually go into winter with about 20 hives and usually only have 2 or 3 losses. 

this year i had two freezers full of dead out equipment that i cycled in and out every week or two. some of the supers from dead outs get placed on other hives for safe keeping.

if i am overwintering nucs they get transferred into the dead out deep equipment as weather permits.



Charlestonbee said:


> Also what ab the dinks coming into spring that are eaten up by mites but not dead yet.


i sometimes do have a dink or two in the spring, but it's not clear they are eaten up by mites. they stay in their big hive and receive shakes of nurse bees from stronger hives until they gain enough traction to make it on their own. they end up being productive and tend not to swarm.



Charlestonbee said:


> Do you put bees and comb in freezer?


there are usually aren't very many bees in the dead outs, but i'll blow them out of the comb with compressed air before putting everything in the freezer.


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## Charlestonbee (Mar 26, 2015)

Thanks square peg. I have one freezer and put the four deadouts I had in there. Three were dead overwinter. I had two dinks in spring one wasn't a mite problem just a dink. I gave it some extra brood and made sure it was fed. Like you said it's making honey now and caught up. The other was a mite problem that tried to supersede after I applied maqs. They didn't make a new queen. It ended up being a deadout. Eventually I would like to purchase a reefer for myself but must have the hive numbers to justify. It would make life so much simpler. Currently I'll just be using one for supers once a year.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

After dealing with AFB, it's made me seriously reconsider ever adding brood or bees from one hive to another. I know there are times when it might be necessary to save a hive, but it sure is a risk.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

This might be of interest.

https://www.morningagclips.com/how-varroa-mites-grow-and-spread/


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> my understanding is that the mites perish along with the bees, am i mistaken?


Well, if the colony dies I assume the mites die. What about during the crashing process, from the time the colony is being overwhelmed by varroa to the time it is dead. One bee dies/one mite dies? I think not. I think workers and drones are leaving the infested colony with mites hitching a ride...entering colonies in the apiary and neighborhood. 

Answer this...New York has tested most of my bees, for years. In July, sampling for varroa and nosema. All apiaries rolled 0-2 mites per sample. I have two apiaries in Beekmantown, about 2 miles apart. Between them is a homeowner beekeeper with 20 or more colonies. He's moved in and increased there number of colonies in his apiary. He doesn't treat, or when he does, it's always too late. Loses lots of colonies. Tell me why, my two apiaries near him roll 13 and 15 mites per sample. 

To me, it proves the mite bomb theory.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> He doesn't treat, *or when he does, it's always too late. *Loses lots of colonies. Tell me why, my two apiaries near him roll 13 and 15 mites per sample.
> To me, it proves the mite bomb theory.


That´s the problem.
Treating in a careless way is much more dangerous than not treating at all.

A provocative statement to virus infestation:
I don´t believe freezing kills virus. It kills other pests. Virus diminishes with time or is fought by the immune system of the victim.

Giving back virus infested material in small amounts could work like a inoculation?

Ah MP just made me think about something which is discussed.
Could it be that the bees are much more susceptible to virus if all microorganism are killed with treatments? So even colonies with less mites have virus disease?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Answer this...New York has tested most of my bees, for years. In July, sampling for varroa and nosema. All apiaries rolled 0-2 mites per sample. I have two apiaries in Beekmantown, about 2 miles apart. Between them is a homeowner beekeeper with 20 or more colonies. He's moved in and increased there number of colonies in his apiary. He doesn't treat, or when he does, it's always too late. Loses lots of colonies. Tell me why, my two apiaries near him roll 13 and 15 mites per sample.


I agree. Seems obvious. What have you done to address is situation? Have you offered to treat his apiary as you do your own when you do your own? 

I believe that Spivak and or Oliver have brought up the idea of communal treating in this way. Just like the way you promote the idea that clubs raise their own queens, everybody in an area getting on the same treatment schedule. The thing is though, people believe different things.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

yes michael, that's a different scenario than presented by tpope above, and the preponderance of the evidence would implicate the homeowner beekeeper in your case. if so i would view his/her husbandry as irresponsible, and a field truthing example of the mite bomb phenomena.

how have your discussions gone with him/her about not being a source for the spread of infestation?

i wonder if they might be receptive to learning your methods and become self sustaining by making splits and using your queens? dang, if i had a michael palmer in my neighborhood that's what i would do.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Not sure what happens in places with cold winters where bees cannot fly. But around my neck of the woods, robbing of dying hives commences before all the bees are dead, once the hive is down to a handful of bees and can no longer keep the gate, robbing commences. I have watched and seen mites transfer from one bee to another, for a thing that walks so slowly it is surprising how fast they are at this you got to watch hard to see it, I would say less than a second.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Yes OT,
Hard to imagine mite's success is not due to the ability to quickly mount a new horse to ride.

So is the compromise between treating and TF a robbing screen rather than partial treating?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I read this stuff about mite transfer. I really do try and not dismiss it but I still find I am missing something in my knowlage of how mites transfer and increase population. If mites propagate by going in a cell right before it is capped and then has four more mites, then it over loading a collony has a lot to do with that collony being in brood rearing stage. I do not see how one hive can start to crash because they start to reduce population and brood production and theirfor more of the winter brood that is being raised is affected so that most of the born bees become disiesed right before a stressfull time. The part I am missing in knowlage is how a hive that has hit this threshold can have enough mites to go out and affect a bunch of hives and whole aparies when though they may add to the mite loads to a differrent hive, that hive would still only become affected with what the mites are carrying though that hives own brood rearing. So with brood rearing being a twenty one day cycle, the math just does not fit in my mind that a crashing hive that is at 17% or whateve has enough time to affect 20 more hives to 17% also adding that it has to get those hives to 17% through brood rearing during the making of winter bees and after your last treatment. 

I am missing just how the math can add up to make that possible and if it is possible then it seems starting with the ten percent of mites that were not killed with a treatment could also add up that fast. One hive spreading the load over dozens of hives does not seem like it would add up to more then one hive starting with a few mites of its own and the mites there propogating.

I did see the study where they were giving the differrance in adding 10 mites a day and what that did to the hives mite load. I just can't figure out what I am missing in the mite breeding and time line that makes it possible for one hive to drastically affect whole aparies in the time that there is to work with between treatments. This is expecially true since the one study mentioned here said treating once or twice a year was making very little impact on hive death.
Still missing something in my knowlage base.
Cheers
gww

Ps I could see one hive getting all the mites from a differrent hive and then in its next round of brood rearing one hive would have time to be affected to the same level as the origional but spread to ten hives the next round of brood would not be affected in the same way unless those ten hives had a differrent and lower threashold then the origional hive. Affecting whole aperies and having to do it through brood rearing just dosn't add up. In my mind of course.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> What have you done to address is situation? Have you offered to treat his apiary as you do your own when you do your own?


Confess I would not be that nice. What I would do for a neighbor is a whole lot more than I would do for a competitor. Competitor between my locations, hope he gives up. Neighbor, neighborly.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I doubt the mites from one hive will kill 20, which is why not all hives in an apiary collapse.

What could be a risk is that hives that already have a mite load get tipped over the edge. I have had hives of my own mite bombed by others, came close to losing every hive in an apiary a couple months ago due to a bigger collapsing apiary near me.

Mite reproduction seems slow, but in non resistant bees it is exponential. There is a story about an ancient king who had a serious problem and it was solved by a mathematician. The king was so pleased he told the mathematician to name any reward he wanted. The mathematician saw a gaming board on the table and asked that one grain of wheat be put on the first square, and this was done. Then he requested that double the amount be put on the next square, double that on the next square, and so on till all the squares on the board were used.

The king was disappointed to be asked for such a paltry reward, but instructed his servants to give the mathematician his sack of wheat and send him on his way. A few hours later he found this had not been done, asked why, and was told the kings mathematicians were still trying to calculate the amount. Eventually the king was told it could not be done because there was not enough grain in the kingdom to supply the request.

Not sure that story is true but it demonstrates the power of exponential multiplication, and that is what mites do in a beehive.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

gww, i am by no means an expert on the subject, but i believe what you are missing is that varroa not only impacts brood by vectoring deadly viruses, but they also parasitize adult bees by sucking the blood (and vitellogenin) out of them while vectoring pathogens to the adults as well. 

my understanding is that there is a significant impact on the longevity of the adults as a consequence of this and results in the colony becoming unable to make it through the especially long and cold winters in the far north.

so a many fold increase in mites late in the season such as can occur with robbing events can certainly be a tipping point with respect to whether or not a colony will survive until the next spring, even after brood rearing has been closed out for the year.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

SiWolKe said:


> Ah MP just made me think about something which is discussed.
> Could it be that the bees are much more susceptible to virus if all microorganism are killed with treatments? So even colonies with less mites have virus disease?


Hmmm. This is what has happened over time, from the introduction of varroa to now. At first, in the early 90s, there were piles of dead varroa on the bottom board after treatment. Many thousands of varroa. No DWV noted. Now, with a much lower varroa population, viruses are killing the colonies. I agree with you. 

But, I can't agree with your conclusion that this change in dynamic is caused by treating for varroa. I treat for varroa once a year, after I harvest the honey. My mite counts are low the following summer. I don't see colonies crashing from PMS. I had a 2% loss in the 2015-2016 winter and 4% this past winter. My bees are exploding and the upcoming work to keep them in their hives is going to be intense. So, show me where I am killing off all the microorganisms in my bees. In face, the national bee survey is telling me that my bees have very low virus and nosema levels, two years in a row.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> In July, sampling for varroa and nosema. All apiaries rolled 0-2 mites per sample.


michael, just curious, with such low counts in july have you ever experimented with a yard or two to see what would happen if you skipped the fall treatment?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

For my bees the reverse of what SiWolKe said was the case. When I was attempting Tf beekeeping plus only treating the treated hives on an as required basis and waiting for high mite levels before I did, virus levels went up over a 2 year period to where even when treated for mites they were still badly virus infected for a long time afterwards. Eventually I returned to treating by the calendar and maintaining low mite levels, but due to high virus loads even in the queens (confirmed by lab tests), it took around 2 full years to really get my bees back to a primo healthy state.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

gww said:


> I am missing just how the math can add up to make that possible...


Years ago, when I was first trying to teach about overwintering nucleus colonies, one beekeeper argued that what I was saying couldn't possibly be true. He understood that a wintering cluster was made up of a central core of bees with a tightly packed shell of bees surrounding the core. He estimated that this shell had to be x number of bees thick. With his slide rule, sitting in front of his fire, with his hot toddy in hand, could prove, mathematically, that a nucleus colony couldn't have a proper shell of bees about their core. Wintering nucs is, therefore, impossible. 

To me, trying to make sense of what is or isn't happening out in the field, by using mathematics is a dead end. Performance speaks louder than math.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> it took around 2 full years to really get my bees back to a primo healthy state.


Been there, done that too OT


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> michael, just curious, with such low counts in july have you ever experimented with a yard or two to see what would happen if you skipped the fall treatment?


No


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good story .

The internet is the perfect medium for the proliferation of hot toddy weilding theorists .

Not saying there's any in this thread of course k:


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## exmar (Apr 30, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Years ago, when I was first trying to teach about overwintering nucleus colonies, one beekeeper argued that what I was saying couldn't possibly be true. He understood that a wintering cluster was made up of a central core of bees with a tightly packed shell of bees surrounding the core. He estimated that this shell had to be x number of bees thick. With his slide rule, sitting in front of his fire, with his hot toddy in hand, could prove, mathematically, that a nucleus colony couldn't have a proper shell of bees about their core. Wintering nucs is, therefore, impossible.
> 
> To me, trying to make sense of what is or isn't happening out in the field, by using mathematics is a dead end. Performance speaks louder than math.


Didn't the folks with the slide rules "prove" that hummingbirds and bumblebees can't fly?  Chuckle, "slide rules" took me back to when I was learning to use one, today, for $50 you can get a scientific calculator which does everything and then loads onto your computer for proper integration into your homework.... My neice is pre-med and I was over there one day and she was doing some homework, crunching some numbers and then producing charts, graphs, and a summary to be handed in the next day. Took her about twenty minutes, I was impressed, she was amused at my reaction. Well, not only am I old, but a rusty retired engineer who hasn't kept up with the ever developing technology around us.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> No


i saw where you mentioned in another thread that past efforts at breeding programs didn't pan out. seems like someone up there would be happy to get a hold of some of your 'zeros' and work with them, oh well...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> seems like someone up there would be happy to get a hold of some of your 'zeros' and work with them, oh well...


There are an awful lot of my queens all over the country. Coming to a Canadian address soon.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> No


I think the brevity of Michael's answer may have disguised the fact he is very serious about producing a bee that is as resistant as possible to mites. When he took a look at my bees in New Zealand we talked a bit about breeding and mite resistance and I got the impression he did not think I am doing enough :s.

I am sure that if someone who was going to make a serious effort approached Michael, he would be happy to supply a queen or two of desired characteristics, he already does sell nucs though.

Just, there are a lot of tire kickers out there. I have several times given prized queens to people who said they had some plan or whatever, and they did not follow through the queens got wasted.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Wow fast moving thread every time I answer I'm several posts behind!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> There are an awful lot of my queens all over the country. Coming to a Canadian address soon.


of course michael.  

i was referencing a program such as randy oliver is encouraging in which some your 'zero' queens might be set up in an isolated yard where they could be managed and bred for mite resistance off treatments. 

i'm surprised no one is doing it, (understanding that you don't have the time and/or the motivation by your 'no'). seems like a waste of a potential opportunity or perhaps there are some folks trying this with your queens?


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Not sure if I'm interpreting this thread correctly so I'll be blunt and ask.
Mite bombs is a reference to un-treated colonies? 
Looked at the title a lot before I finally clicked on it. Was expecting a mite-bomb recipe. 

Want to thank Mr Palmer for sharing all the information he does. I've picked up a lot of his methods. 
Wintering nucs in duplex hives is why I have not had to buy any bees to replace losses. 
If we all tried to run "sustainable apiaries" that'd be real progress.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Its not s TF V T issue.. is a hive over loaded with mites issue witch happens in bolth camps, but often is blamed on hobbyists going bond with package bees while poor/failed treatment is to blame as well


msl said:


> Now there are several issues here depending on what you call a mite bomb, and all are exbrasted by high density settings
> Drifting- http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0140337 17% of the workers in a hive were not from that hive. Up to ½ of those were not even from that apiary
> Robbing of a colony that is collapsing or severing weakened by Varroa. This is what I think of when using the term mite bomb…. Been there my self, surprise fall flow, hives that then crash form no were over winter
> Atack- I had not hurd this till a bit ago, Erik Osterlund put forth that when a colony absconds do to mites they attempt to usurp a hive elce were.. From Wyatt Magnum we know bees can do a late summer usurpation swarm ..


GWW I will try a basic model, yes its not perfict, as MP points out math only goes so far, but here is the jist of it 
Measured rates have been at 75 mites a day for sept/oct
so that 525 a week
by week 4, with a 2.7 increase rate, the week one mites are coming out of the brood at 1417.5 a week on top of the 525 for a total of 1942.5 a week increase
by week 7 its a 5769 mites a week increase
This conides with the rearing of winter bees and the lowereing of hive population for fall t, the brood is over run with mites weakling it and sucking the veligitin out of the bees leading to winter losses.

what makes this scary for many is it happens after people have suscussfuly treated and more or less put the bees to bed for the winter
take home is if your in an HD area oct/nov rolls may save you hives

maby not dozens taken out per bomb... but when a whole apiary goes down that a lot lot of bombs 

too early for a hot toddy, guess its a bloody mary


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Ok
Like oldtimer mentioned, step out for a bit and come back to a whole bunch of post. (oldtimer, I think if you double a penny for 30 days you end up with five million plus dollars) Just so everybody knows, I am a high school drop out and not a mathamatition or speller either if you pay attention. 

I do find michaels point of not having to see it on paper if you see it in the yard. This point is why I have a hard time thinking bees can't be kept with out treatments cause some are even if I am too dumb to know why. I want to thank everyone that took an effort to improve my understanding of the real world a bit in a nice way even if thier instinct was to do it like you would when slapping a fly. I expect to learn a lot from most of you. 

I have things floating around in my brain on the effects of mites on older bees but guess I will have to do a little refreash searching and reading. I do agree that it is nice to know why some things are working when a person has time to play with the reasons but do agree that having things work is the most important thing if it is something you need, even if not being sure of why. 

I do find that this stuff is sorta like the bird flue was in korea for awhile. You would see people all over the streets with face mask on. It would have been better to stay home but if you had to go out, you did what you could to hedge your bet. It seems that some hives are going to die no matter what and no getting away from it but on the other hand some times it is an ebola type situation and isolation and quarentine is in order. Deciding what is to be expected as normal and what is extraorinary seems to be the trick. 

I do thank those that adressed my question.
Thanks
gww

Msl I don't make them when at home but have had times that a bloody mary really hit the spot.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Exmar
By the time my kids hit third grade, I could not even understand the instructions in thier text books on math problims and as dumb as I was in school, math was one of my best subjects (non were good though). My kids had to do it on thier own. One is an optometrist and one graduated a home ec teacher. I still know things they don't though, ha, ha.
Cheers
gww


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Giving back virus infested material in small amounts could work like a inoculation?


 Sibylle, bees do not have a reactive immune system like humans. They seem to have epigenetic adaptation which can pass "resistance" factors on to offspring. Please look this up, the difference is important to understanding how bees adapt to viral challenges.


Oldtimer, describing the increase of mites as "exponential" is not quite accurate. I've posted a chart of the rate of increase previously but a short summary is that 6 cycles of brood allow 1 mite to turn into 10. Reproduction on drones is more efficient. An easy way to keep up with it is that 1000 mites in a colony in spring turn into 10,000 mites by late fall. Depending on virus load, 10,000 mites may not be enough to kill a colony but will weaken it over winter. The next spring, the mites cram into the first cycle of brood cells which may doom the colony or if the colony survives, two cycles of brood are enough for the mites to overwhelm the colony. This paradigm is why a lot of beginner beekeepers think they got away home free the first year only to get kicked down the second year.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Fussion


> This paradigm is why a lot of beginner beekeepers think they got away home free the first year only to get kicked down the second year.


I get to test this this year. Wish me luck.

Fussion, I take it you do not buy into mel dessilkoens ideal that when the mites croud into that first round of brood being raised that it takes out the mite and the first round of brood cleanning up the hive a bit? I did read this one other place beside mel but would have to do a lot of searching to find it again.
Cheers
gww


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

maby some effect? but if you run the numbers just OTSing a hive and breaking it up 4 ways gives you a 84% reduction in mites per colony at the end of the season


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Msl
I was thinking that but also thinking of those guys that go into winter with 15% mite count and come out below two. I realize there is probly quite a bit of mite die off to old age but thought this might factor in also. I know some of this has been covered in other threads we have particated in but I find when there is a lot of learning that needs done, I do best hearing things over and over so that I might remember 1/3rd of it. 
Thanks for the responce.
gww


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

In addition, quantitative trait loci (QTL) that influence honeybee stinging behavior have been identified based on colony phenotypes and were later confirmed to affect the tendencies of individual worker bees to either sting or guard the nest entrance (Arechavaleta and Hunt 2004; Arechavaleta et al. 2003; Hunt et al. 1998). Bees that guard the nest entrance exclude nonnestmate bees, but also appear to have a role in recruiting nestmates to sting other intruders, perhaps through the release of an alarm pheromone (Arechavaleta and Hunt 2003; Breed et al. 2004).

Stolen from a link in http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?337188-Drones-determine-gentleness

Part of AHB resistance to mites is probably that they simply do not let as many collapsing hive foragers enter. I wonder if drone drift is less of a problem for AHB hives.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

gww said:


> . . . I take it you do not buy into mel dessilkoens ideal that when the mites croud into that first round of brood being raised that it takes out the mite and the first round of brood cleaning up the hive a bit?


(_not speaking for Fusion_Power_)

This an interesting idea, but without some testing it is just an educated guess.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Mite increase IS exponential, unless some factor limits it. With some bees, in some places, and in some seasons, there will be factors that limit it.

Second season crash? Chance, a set of circumstances that favor mites one particular season, or steady virus increase till crash can be caused by a lower mite level than the previous year. It will be affected by apiary factors not just single hive factors.

However I don't think there is a fixed rule about just when a mite crash will happen, because there are so many factors involved. Webster has been a while since a major crash but I heard he lost most of his bees last season, biggest crash he's ever had. There will be a reason/s, but identifying it can be the issue.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Saltybee said:


> So is the compromise between treating and TF a robbing screen rather than partial treating?


Great question. Robbing is certainly part of the equation but seems likely there is more. A beekeeper on Beesource a few years ago claimed he could find varroa mites on cotton flowers he believed were waiting for a new bee to come along to climb onto.
Passive robbing can go on unnoticed also. A hobby beekeeper here is about to do an interesting experiment, feeding each of her hives a different colored syrup then will check later to see if any colors turn up in different hives.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Oldtimer



> A beekeeper on Beesource a few years ago claimed he could find varroa mites on cotton flowers he believed were waiting for a new bee to come along to climb onto.


I saw a study that made that claim also.

Your report on webster makes me want to start my shop towel experments.

I still intend to get to that sometime but plan on feeling a little pain first (as stupid as that sounds) so I can learn what it looks like. Like you said though, there is always a reason but being able to reconize it is sometimes the hard part.

I thank you again for responding to my earlier question in this thread.
Cheers
gww


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> A hobby beekeeper here is about to do an interesting experiment, feeding each of her hives a different colored syrup then will check later to see if any colors turn up in different hives.


That sounds like an interesting experiment. I would be interested in a comparison of results with different varieties of bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Once it happens I'll report back.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Actually did that experiment and figured out who was the robber in the yard. Suspected robbing so was feeding blue, green, and red to three separate nucs I had going. Sure enough one of the full-size colonies was robbing. Had a lot of color in the brood frames.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

And out of interest was robbing obvious at the entrances of the hives being robbed?


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

A synopsis of what I am getting from this thread:
1- location location location of your hives. If you have beekeepers within your 3 mile radius you need to monitor AND treat ( whatever way you do that)Pretend they are your favorite pet, you don't let them suffer with fleas do you?
2- All the years of trying to breed the perfect queen really isn't working, which brings us to
3- your own sustainable apiary a la Mike P
4- try and set up a treatment schedule in your community of beekeepers ( good idea from someone)
5- a LOT of bad grammar and spelling
6- life is simple, we make it difficult, Too much drama.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

A treatment schedule is done here in my area for a long time now. If you registrate you know when beekeepers treat and can do this accordingly.

OT and MP
I follow your arguments.

But why is it that here treatment numbers rise and rise?

Some years ago people treated once with formic acid in summer and once with Oxalic acid in winter. Now they treat one shock treatment FA and one long-time treatment FA in summer and one OA in winter.
Plus they often do an artificial brood brake in summer, separating the queen, treating all the brood combs and combining again.

Will there be a time when a hive never has a time without being treated? They will find a way they are able to harvest honey even with treatments. Organic treatments will be declared as natural and not dangerous, maybe. 

Dar, I will look up the information of virus impacts on bees. Sorry about my ignorance.

Funny how beekeeping is reduced so much to mite topics. In may thriving of bees should be the topic. What a sad situation.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I think Kirk Webster put it well 


> There are no bees you can introduce into your colonies that will solve all their problems and allow you to return to the beekeeping of the 1970's and early '80's


in short, no matter if TF is the future or not, we will never regain what was lost in our time, a sobering thought, to watch an era pass... 
before my time my grandfather kept bees in VT, to hear the family tales, his biggest issue was skunks, a job left to my mother as a tween, and being sent to Sunday school stinking like skunk :lpf:
times have changed

Cloverdale hits the nail on the head


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

http://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12864-017-3597-6

After reading this ( translating ) I wonder what would have happened if there would be more natural settings with beekeeping.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

The entire premise of beekeeping (managing live stock) is at odds with a natural setting. 
Natural beekeeping is snake oil, any harvest, mapluation, or denensity change is not natural 
working with your stocks genetic behavioral predispositions is a different story, but that don't make it natural


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

And the reduction in crop?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> And the reduction in crop?


presumed or measured? hedge against treatments becoming ineffective?


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Michael Palmer said:


> And the reduction in crop?


Well it seems this topic has not delved into any type of pesticide/herbicide/neonics that affects all pollinators not just our honey bees and queens/drones. I would like to be able to answer your question Michael but it seems a "loaded" question to me. There isn't a direct answer or solution to our problems with our bee's; hopefully the new "movement" of the Pollinator Partnership will grab hold to all people (Mark Berninghausen is part of this in NYS) not just beeks, in supporting planting of pollinator friendly plants, not greening our lawns to look perfect, etc. The studies done on neonics et al has just been on individual bees, not the hive as a super organism.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> And the reduction in crop?


Delayed gratification. Altruism.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> http://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12864-017-3597-6
> 
> After reading this ( translating ) I wonder what would have happened if there would be more natural settings with beekeeping.


If nothing else, this article illustrates the complexity of pest and disease genetic response dynamics and, with respect to genetic reproductive management, the crudeness of mite counts, the slowness (albeit with exquisite thoroughness and reasonable genetic preservation) of hard Bond, and the lovely speed of sophisticated fine scale genetic mapping, analysis, and selection, though at a cost of genetic preservation, thoroughness, and prohibitive monetary expense, and which is currently, as a practical matter, technologically unavailable.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

@ Oldtimer.
Yeah. I reduced the entrances down about 3/4 x 1/2 inch. And stopped the robbing but was curious so I let it ride a couple days with the colored syrup. When I started my goal was to maybe run 4 back yard hive. That goal changed at least twice. When I saw how easy it is to get free bees and how many I ramped up real quick. 
I can afford to play around so I do some odd things. They're just bugs in boxes. 

If I'd payed for every single colony of bees I have my wife would have left me already. Don't ask me to calculate a number. 
She was skeptical when I asked about re-starting into bees. Once she saw how fast it blossomed, how much honey, and how much money is involved she got on board quickly. She is known as "the bee lady" now and can't go grocery shopping without people asking how the bees are doing. She actually is enjoying the whole thing.


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

> I can afford to play around so I do some odd things. They're just bugs in boxes.
> 
> She was skeptical when I asked about re-starting into bees. Once she saw how fast it blossomed, how much honey, and how much money is involved she got on board quickly. She is known as "the bee lady" now and can't go grocery shopping without people asking how the bees are doing. She actually is enjoying the whole thing.


 that's me. I got into bees because I love honey and decided to give it a go. I've got a good job working about half the year. I do whatever it is that makes me smile and don't worry about the rest. I'll sell enough honey to pay my expenses, the wife's in charge of that, while still giving my peeps the plenty. The day bee keeping my becomes a hassle to me or I have to worry about the monetary side, it's gone. I haven't bought a bee, will not buy a bee and will do absolutely nothing extra to keep them alive. But that's just me. I understand the other side but no attempt to do what is unquestionably the right thing long term I can't respect


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> The mite bomb thing is a real phenomenon. It’s from idealistic people
> wanting to help the bees, abandoning colonies of non-resistant bees. The beekeeper needs to
> build up a whole system for coexistence with stock management practices and allow time –
> about 4 to 5 years – with stock that has some promise to begin with


Kirk Webster


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

We all dump something on others. Coal was cheap power, heated plenty of NE homes including mine. Probably still would if it was cheaper than oil. But 100s of years of it resulted in "do not eat the wild fish you catch".
Bond method is not purity either. America was concurred by Small Pox as much as bullets. May be the sound long term plan, just do not claim that it is pure.

You may be comfortable with mite bombs, but own all of it. Choices we make.
Treating or advocating TF, both come with some stains.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

msl said:


> The entire premise of beekeeping (managing live stock) is at odds with a natural setting.
> Natural beekeeping is snake oil, any harvest, mapluation, or denensity change is not natural
> working with your stocks genetic behavioral predispositions is a different story, but that don't make it natural


This is especially true and relevant when you realize honey bees are not native to North America. Claiming you are a "natural" beekeeper when you are harboring an invasive species is an oxymoron.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> And the reduction in crop?


Interesting statement, because talking to old beekeepers ( in germany) I realized that in former times ( before varroa) the crop was less ( swarm multiplying done) but the profit higher.
After the war when honey was produced artificially and this later changed to much better groceries people were ready to spend money on good food because it showed they were wealthy again.

So you made much money with less investments. Today there is a trend in this direction away from destroying your health with convenience foods, but, as you see with the manuka honey, most people are never content with what they have but want more profit even if they became rich.

So it´s not a question of crop in itself but how much we are willing to spend for our foods.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

msl said:


> "The mite bomb thing is a real phenomenon. It’s from idealistic people
> wanting to help the bees, abandoning colonies of non-resistant bees. The beekeeper needs to
> build up a whole system for coexistence with stock management practices and allow time –
> about 4 to 5 years – with stock that has some promise to begin with " Kirk Webster


4-5 years? I wonder if he might adjust that time estimate after this year.


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## JohnSchwartz (Mar 24, 2014)

MP: In the fall when you treat, what is your method of choice, and are you rotating methods?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> 4-5 years? I wonder if he might adjust that time estimate after this year.


Please expand on this, is Kirk having trouble with mites this year?

It took 5 years to get my bees pretty much stable with no further mite related losses. It has taken another 7 years to get them to a point I can say they are productive as the bees I had 30 years ago. It will take at least another 5 years to get swarming under 30%.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Fusion_power said:


> ... is Kirk having trouble with mites this year?


i was wondering the same. there have been quite a few reports now of higher than usual winter losses in the northeastern u.s.

did you experience any 'problem' yards this winter michael?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Fusion_power said:


> Please expand on this, is Kirk having trouble with mites this year?


I heard but can't confirm that he got wiped out just like many beeks in the NE.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

If so, the question is mites or weather, or many factors. Really warm and wet, quickly to cold.
My example;
Mother queen six stack nuc; flying Jan/Feb, dead in March. Plenty of feed, plenty of bees in every level, absolutely no cluster. if I had written it down I bet I could name the afternoon they froze.


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## JohnSchwartz (Mar 24, 2014)

Saltybee said:


> If so, the question is mites or weather, or many factors. Really warm and wet, quickly to cold.
> My example;
> Mother queen six stack nuc; flying Jan/Feb, dead in March. Plenty of feed, plenty of bees in every level, absolutely no cluster. if I had written it down I bet I could name the afternoon they froze.


I experienced some of that kind of loss here in the Cleveland area this Spring. One week its 85 degrees, bees flying, plenty of pollen incoming, no cluster. Freezing the next week, with lengthy periods of wet cold in the 30's-40's. Bees frozen/starved in different locations on the comb (unusual).


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Does 6 stack nuc mean a hive housed in a stack of 6 nuc boxes?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Yes, 2 deeps, 4 mediums just like the survivor next to it.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

What is the purpose of doing it like that?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I heard but can't confirm that he got wiped out just like many beeks in the NE.


A lot of beekeepers there as well as Webster got wiped out? I think Michael Palmer is there how did it go for you Michael?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> What is the purpose of doing it like that?


Not a plan.
Lack of time/health at the right times.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

A post from bee-l regarding a very similar situation from the 1860's! ( not concerning mites but who says this past winters loss was mites?)
T. Bullman, Jr., of Terre Haute, Indiana, writes as follows: 

"In September last, when the first cold weather set in, my bees began to die. First, I found in one of my best stands, with all the frames full of sealed honey, and some honey in boxes, the bees all dead. After that the bees began to die in all my stands, mostly pure Italians, and some hybrids. First, about one-third of the bees would be found dead; next, I would find the queen lying dead before the hive; and in about a week more, the whole colony would be found dead in and around the hive. Sometimes the queen would live with a handful of bees. The hives were full of honey, gathered the latter part of the season; and the smallest had enough for the bees to winter upon. In this way I have lost forty stands, and have now only fifteen skeleton colonies, which I think will also perish before spring. At first I thought I was the only victim, but I have ascertained that all the bees in this neighborhood have died, and as far as thirty miles north and eighteen south. Yesterday I saw a letter from Kentucky, from a man who thought his bees had stampeded in the same manner as mine, to the hive of mother-earth. Some colonies had broods, others did not. Late in October all the queens commenced laying again. To some colonies I gave three queens in about two weeks, and lost each in turn." 

The true cause of the disease has not been discovered. Some attribute it to the want of pollen; some to poisonous honey; and some to the unusually hot summer. Whatever may be the cause, the effect has been most disastrous, throughout these two States.

Sound familiar? This is from the "Report of the Commissioner of Agriculture for the year 1868"


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> A lot of beekeepers there as well as Webster got wiped out? I think Michael Palmer is there how did it go for you Michael?


So I've heard OT. I did well...4% loss that will probably tick up to 5% once we find the queenless and drone layers.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> So I've heard OT. I did well...4% loss that will probably tick up to 5% once we find the queenless and drone layers.


that's exceptional michael, kudos.

and putting myself in your shoes, and if i were making my living with bees, and to be perfectly honest, i would have a hard time finding the motivation to do anything different than what has proven successful when it comes to paying the rent and putting food on the table.

on the other hand as a sideliner/hobbiest if i were located up in your neck of the woods, and having an interest in working with or toward stock that does well off treatments, i would do my best to acquire some of those colonies with zero mite counts from you and see what i could do with them.

that said, it may turn out that there is too much pressure up there and/or perhaps not enough depth when it comes to surviving ferals to pull it off, but it would be interesting to try, making sure none became mite bombs of course.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> .... making sure none became mite bombs of course.


Of course.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Michael Palmer, have you or has anyone tested your bees as to what DWV type is dominant in your operation?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

No.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> No.


After asking that question I realize it makes no difference to you one way or the other so why would you even look. Being a large stationary operation and your most excellent management practices I could see how the less virulent form of DWV could possibly come about. Until someone approaches you to allow them to do that type of test it will just have to remain a curiosity. Thanks for your response.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Just out of interest on that subject, there has been contradictory research about DWV virulence. Most studies found a move towards more virulent DWV in the general population, but one study found a move to less virulent DWV in the general population.

A factor in the move towards more virulent DWV would be mite bombs. The virus that is more deadly and kills it's host quicker, allowing it to be mite bombed to other hives, would have an advantage. The more virulent DWV can get very deadly but not wipe out the species, because the human bee owners will not allow that to happen. They could lose the odd hive here and there though, and the more virulent the virus, the more likely those losses.


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