# Weights on labels



## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

If a gallon of honey weighs approximately 12 lbs. and a quart typically three pounds, why is it that the weight listed for pints is only 22 oz. rather than 24 oz.? Would it be considered mislabeling to put 24 oz. on pint jars of honey?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Same thing troubles me as I am getting to the point where i want a legal label. The reg calls for net weight in oz and grams. What does that tell you? It tells me I need a calibrated scale and weigh net and gross at a friendly deli.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

I have found that honey by volume is not always the same weight.
I have a scale which allows me to weigh the jar, reset to zero and weigh the honey.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Y'all are making it way too complicated.
Check out the video. The part about scales, bottling and weights starts at about the 9 minute and 50 second mark.
http://www.honey-bees.de/videos/75-heathland-traditional-beekeeping-skep-apiary-videos.html


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Thanks Scrapfe -got it we all need an apprentice!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

max2 said:


> I have found that honey by volume is not always the same weight.


That's probably why honey is sold by weight and there are jars especially designed and produced for honey. At least that is so in the US. What about australia?


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

In MA.The reg calls for net weight in oz and grams. What does that tell you? 


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

? That we still have some way to go before we switch to the Metric System?

There is some leeway in weight of honey in the jar, as long as what is in the jar is more than what is on the label. Tolerances are not as rigid as some seem to fear.


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## dixiebooks (Jun 21, 2010)

Scrapfe said:


> Y'all are making it way too complicated.
> Check out the video. The part about scales, bottling and weights starts at about the 9 minute and 50 second mark.
> http://www.honey-bees.de/videos/75-heathland-traditional-beekeeping-skep-apiary-videos.html


Which video Scrapfe? I clicked your link and a webpage came up with 8 videos. -james (who makes EVERYTHING way too complicated.)

Never mind. I think I found it. I'm gonna gave to go back to Germany for a visit to relatives and these apiaries. -james


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"That's probably why honey is sold by weight and there are jars especially designed and produced for honey. At least that is so in the US. What about australia? "
The jars we are using are not special honey jars, they are simply food jars but 500g and 1 kg fit perfectly. Novelty jars ( eg Baers) are not common here.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> That's probably why honey is sold by weight and there are jars especially designed and produced for honey.


How does the container make any difference to the accuracy of the weight?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nuttin'. But, specially designed jars, especially the squeeze bears, are built to hold a standard amount of honey. If they are filled properly they won't draw attention from NYS Ag&Mkts Weights and Measures.

How accurate does it have to be? What are your standards and tolerances?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I'd be interested to know what the legal tolerance is because I think most small beekeepers have no idea. I contend that most people are using the container for their measurement and then slapping a weight on the label because it is required. I would also be surprised if there wasn't an upper limit like there would be for most food items.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Acebird said:


> How does the container make any difference to the accuracy of the weight?


It doesn't make a difference if using honey jars specifically designed for honey. However, if you fill a 1 pint mason jar with honey the honey will weigh considerably more than 16 ounces. Office Depot, and others, have an 11 lb scale that has a tare weight setting. Cheap, and you can use it for many other weighing problems. Then you can confidently mark the real weight that's in the jar if you decide to use other than "honey jars."


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Acebird said:


> How does the container make any difference to ...weight?


It don't, but if you fail to subtract the tare from your label, or add enough honey to the jar, to equal the label information you are asking for trouble or bad PR.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I would also be surprised if there wasn't an upper limit like there would be for most food items.


That would be the top of the jar.


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## oblib (Oct 28, 2011)

That would be the top of the jar. 


opcorn:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

fish_stix said:


> Office Depot, and others, have an 11 lb scale that has a tare weight setting. Cheap, and you can use it for many other weighing problems.


And once you have done that a cpl of times, are you going to continue doing so w/ each jar? Or are you going to determine how much honey you can get into a particular size jar, make labels w/ that weight, and always fill the jars to the same height or more and not bother w/ the scale anymore.

Gets to a point of efficiency.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> ... Or are you going to determine how much honey you can get into a particular size jar...and not bother w/ the scale...


A likely outcome for most of us seeing we are all human.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

My point exactly. So, why bother buying a scale you only need so little? Take an empty jar and a full jar to your local deli and ask them to weigh them for you. Then do the math. That's the weight you should show on your label. Then get the deli to buy, display and sell your honey.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

in Canada CFIA sets out the guidelines for selling honey.
Honey must be in size specific measuremente. We are allowed to sell in 375g (under a pound) 500g (1pound) 1kg (2.2 pounds) 1.5 kg, 2kg, 2.5 kg and so on. Any style or size of jar, but under those weight categories. Any food grade container will work, however, we want the product to look nice. So a 3/4 full container looks incomplete. We can apply for a special licence to sell honey in a different size container, but that is more paperwork. This is probably why bee supply stores sell containers...size specific to meet regulations
Those who are not inspected fall through the cracks and sell in what ever size they want. They are only allowed to sell from farm gate and farmers markets though. To sell in a store would be illegal so to speak.


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

Have any of you that have weighed a pint jar of honey been able to get 24 oz. of honey in the jar, or is 22 oz. more common?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I've checked several pint jars with a professional lab scale and found that most of them hold slightly less than 24 oz. If you are concerned about the label you could play it safe and label it - ( net wt 22 oz. 624 grams )

It probably will hold a little more, but you're covered. Just price by the jar and not necessarily the amount of honey. If you get $6.00 for 1 lb of honey then sell the pints for $9.00. I doubt very much if you will have anyone question you or have any concerns about the label amount. Keep it simple - sell pints as 1.5 lbs and quarts as 3 lbs but just label less and cover yourself. Don't price by the oz or gram, but by the jar.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I've checked several pint jars with a professional lab scale and found that most of them hold slightly less than 24 oz.


Filled to the brim? Or what?


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

Right. I think the rules here are that the container, whatever is in it, even if it's not a food, simply must contain *at least* as much as is indicated on the label, not be within a certain tolerance. It just can't be under, period.

Have you ever watched those tv shows about how they make stuff where they're packaging chips in a bag and they have 14 chutes splaying out like spokes on a wheel. Each chute goes to an independent scale that weighs it's little portion. A computer quickly adds the 14 scales in every combination possible and then opens the chutes which will give the absolute closest amount of product to the marked weight, but it has to be at least that weight. This way they're not giving you even one chip more than they have to, but they're not short changing you either.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

That's correct Mark, filled to the brim. With a very small amount of air space it will weigh about 23 oz net wt. I'm sure that could vary slightly depending on moisture content.

From another thread concerning this topic



> Just brought a certified scale home from our lab and weighed some of my honey at the house. The jars were first tared on the scale and then filled all the way to the top with honey.
> 
> *1 pint* Ball mason jar - 678 grams (1.495 lbs) or Net Wt. - 23.92 oz.
> *I quart* Ball mason jar - 1356 grams (2.989 lbs) or Net Wt. - 47.82 oz.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Too the brim is messy, for the person filling and for the customer. I'll stick w/ honey jars.


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## toomanyhandles (Jun 24, 2009)

-----
I'd be interested to know what the legal tolerance is because I think most small beekeepers have no idea. I contend that most people are using the container for their measurement and then slapping a weight on the label because it is required. I would also be surprised if there wasn't an upper limit like there would be for most food items. 
-----

So you have no idea then? But you'll toss out ideas and see what sticks to the wall?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> That would be the top of the jar.


yes Mark, you say you are packing by weight but you really are packing by volume. That's why the weight requirement is bogus for honey. Who adheres to it?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

toomanyhandles said:


> -----
> So you have no idea then?


I don't. I am not a commercial beekeeper selling honey. But my point is those that are don't know either and assume there is no upper limit. Can you legally put 23.92 oz in a jar and call it 22, how about 16? You can charge what ever you want so what does it matter?


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

Most containers specifically made to hold honey....queenline jars, bears, etc, are designed so that when filled just past the bottom of the threads, they will contain a specific weight of honey. A 1lb queenline jar, when filled to that point, will contain right at 16oz of honey. Try it out. If you're putting honey in mason jars, then yeah, you need to be weighing to be sure, but honey jars are made to be correct for honey. Also, an "upper limit" has been mentioned. I'm probably reading that wrong, but here I don't believe there's any upper limit. The weight on the label is the minimum weight of the product. I don't think any regulation in my state prevents you from giving away free product, but it certainly prevents you from short-changing the consumer.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> yes Mark, you say you are packing by weight but you really are packing by volume. That's why the weight requirement is bogus for honey. Who adheres to it?


I do adhere to it. But I dare not go below. I don't have a filling machine calibrated exactly to a specific weight. So, what would you have me do.

The weight requirement is bogus for honey? I guess you could see it that way, since you aren't going to pack much and aren't going to sell it to a store. Try bottling some honey and sell it to the Health Food Store in Hamilton and see how long you get away w/ selling it w/ a label that says "1 Pint" before the Weights and Measures folks pay you a visit. Then explain to them how bogus the requirement is.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> But my point is those that are don't know either and assume there is no upper limit. Can you legally put 23.92 oz in a jar and call it 22, how about 16? You can charge what ever you want so what does it matter?


Maybe no one give an upper limit any thought. What do you mean by an upper limit? I don't see why you can't sell 23.92oz of honey w/ a label stating 22oz. You are going to give away a lot of honey over time, which I am sure I have.

I'm sure that if you put 16oz of honey in a jar which will hold 22oz w/ a label which states 22oz you will get in some sort of trouble, either w/ customers or Authoritys or both.

I don't know the Truth in Labeling Laws, seems you looked them up for us one time, but I know they exist. Try selling Honey Bears w/out a label. The store you sold them to will call you after a while after Weights and Measures tells them to take them off the shelf.

No one regulates the price except the customer, indirectly.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

So for those that cant fill standard honey containers to an appropiate level and get 24oz or 16oz completely what temp is the honey when you start pouring it? It really helps to get all the honey in the jar when its not screaming hot as honey expands with heat. 

We weigh a few just every once in a while when filling containers as I am sure Mark probably does in his operation. Its called quality control. Some maybe slightly under and some are slightly over. Like Mark we also hand pack. In fact I haven't seen too many folks that have fill machines and I have seen some fill machines that cant put the same weight in a jar twice.

Alot of it depends upon the temp and sugar water content of the honey.

Not sure what the tolerance is for jar weight but I bet if you are terribly concerned you can get with your state agency that oversees honey labeling and ask them what the tolerance is for it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I'm sure that if you put 16oz of honey in a jar which will hold 22oz w/ a label which states 22oz you will get in some sort of trouble, either w/ customers or Authoritys or both.


Wrong way... If you put 22 oz in a jar and call it 16 will you get flack then? Then I can print up all my labels with 8 oz and paste them on any container larger than 8 oz. I can't imagine anyone in the US not being able to recognize what a quart ball jar is. Some even tell you what the fluid oz is on the jar. If I can legally do what I just said the weight requirement is bogus.

So who knows what the law reads? I want to see that document.



> I don't have a filling machine calibrated exactly to a specific weight. So, what would you have me do.


Is it calibrated to volume or are you filling by eye? Do you know the density of the honey per batch? Do you take readings of any sort and RECORD them on a form? There are a lot of ways to skin a cat and verify what you are doing. Again scale comes into play here. What you do may not be efficient for someone else to do.
Regulatory organizations get their funding from fines so there primary function is to regulate large corporations that can pay large fines without going under. Rules are written for the big guys, and rightly so. They are what needs to be regulated.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

So if rules are written for the big guys then there must be something in writing somewhere that defines "big guys"? 

Who are the big guys? The guys running 15 colonies? The guys running 50 colonies? The guys running 5000 colonies? They guys who own packing houses and buy 160ton annually for distribution?


Here is where to check for NYS

New York State Department of Agriculture & Markets
10B Airline Drive Albany, NY 12235 
1-800-554-4501

They will be happy to answer any questions concerning the law.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BMAC said:


> Some maybe slightly under and some are slightly over.


 Don't worry about it nobody is checking... Regulation occurs at the point of manufacture. Very seldom at the customer end.

Most simple filling machines work off from volume so it behoves you to pay attention to the density. At the very least for those that are doing the eye ball technique you should blend all the same honey in as large a container as you can get and bring it to a set temperature before filling. You can buy a simple 10 pound digital scale cheap to determine the filling mark. One weight reading per batch should be sufficient.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Now I like the way you are thinking. We ******** or Hillbilly's like to refer to that as the calibrated eye.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BMAC said:


> So if rules are written for the big guys then there must be something in writing somewhere that defines "big guys"?


No there isn't. If you ask them they will tell you that the rules are written for everybody including the backyard beek with two hives but in practice they will not regulate a back yard beek. It is not politically correct. It serves no purpose to the general public.
I don't think it is the number of colonies that makes the difference. I think it depends on where the product is going. Like anything large distribution, packing houses, cooperatives.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

!!UNCLE!! Acebird is right. I give up. Of course, you are right. It's all Bogus. Unknown and unknowable. No one cares and no one is regulating, unless you are of a certain size.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

canoemaker said:


> If a gallon of honey weighs approximately 12 lbs. and a quart typically three pounds, why is it that the weight listed for pints is only 22 oz. rather than 24 oz.? Would it be considered mislabeling to put 24 oz. on pint jars of honey?


Can you get 24oz of honey in weight into a pint jar? Consistently? Go ahead.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Wrong way... If you put 22 oz in a jar and call it 16 will you get flack then? Then I can print up all my labels
> with 8 oz and paste them on any container larger than 8 oz.


I actually think you could do that. The problem then becomes the fact that if I'm a consumer, I expect all of your 8oz jars to be the same price. So are you going to sell me that 22oz jar for the same price as the 8oz because it has the same label? Sold! Also, if someone asks what your price/pound is or a store wants to put a price/pound label on the shelf as many of them do, your 22oz jar price/lb will be ~3x higher than anyone else's because it'll be based on an 8oz weight. Guess the point is you'd only be short-changing yourself by doing this.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thing is, he'll never do it, will you Acebird. It's all just a point of arguement.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

libhart said:


> I actually think you could do that. I expect all of your 8oz jars to be the same price.


The jars aren't 8 oz they are all different sizes with the same labels. Unit price is all different just like it is with cheerios and anything else you buy in the store. Most people don't look at unit prices just like they don't ask where the honey comes from. You have never seen a bigger box of cereal cost more (per unit) than a smaller box? It is an every day occurrence and not hard to find.

Mark, I have sold small quantities of honey with no label. You going to turn me in to the honey police? They didn't care what jar it was in and they wanted as much as I would give them. Nearest I can tell is they paid about $20 a pound in the form of dinner for me and my wife.

They were going to keep another hive for me but the wife got stung last fall. They claimed it was a honey bee but I am sure it was a yj. The husband wasn't too hot on the idea so it gave him the excuse he was looking for. He likes the honey though.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

I guess I'm just a geek that way. I almost always look at unit prices and buy based on that and the quantity I want or need. If I want 16oz of something and 8oz is less than the unit price of the 16oz container, guess what, I'm just going to buy 2 of the 8oz containers. In the stores around me the unit price is right on the tag with the price of the item, so it's not hard to compare. In this case the unit price would be nuts and so I'd realize I'm getting more than 8oz but since I don't know how much I'm getting, I'd probably stay away and go with someone else's product. Ok, 'nuf said by me.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Don't worry about it nobody is checking... Regulation occurs at the point of manufacture. Very seldom at the customer end.


Unless a complaint has been filed, then you will hear a knock at your door. Big guy, little guy, doesn't matter. They are obligated to follow up.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

In NY the unit price is somewhere near the product, maybe. It definitely is not on the product, nor is the price. You have to be an anal geek to know when you are getting the better shake. I always get the better shake.

Let me ask you this, why isn't honey sold in fluid ozs the way everyone is measuring it anyway and then set a standard that the density of honey has to be such and such to keep the criminals from cheating?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Is it calibrated to volume or are you filling by eye? Do you know the density of the honey per batch?


Variations in density will be very minor. Probably less then the variations seen in individually filled jars, machine filled or by hand. If one plans to use mason jars it's pretty simple. Fill one to the bottom thread, weight it, and print your labels at that weight. Fill the rest of the jars by eye to at least the bottom tread or higher, and that's all there is to it. If it gets to the point where someone is concerned about possibly giving away a free ounce of honey in their jars then perhaps it's time to reevaluate the business.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Unless a complaint has been filed, then you will hear a knock at your door. Big guy, little guy, doesn't matter. They are obligated to follow up.


Filed with who? In the medical field the complaint is filed with the manufacture. The manufacturer has to keep record of the complaint and how it was resolved. When the FDA inspector comes in the first thing he wants to see is the complaint history file and then he goes looking at those products. Very seldom does he come up empty handed. Your going to get whacked. Grin and bear it.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Filed with who?


Around here it would be the Ohio Department of Agriculture Food Safety


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Mark, I have sold small quantities of honey with no label. You going to turn me in to the honey police? They didn't care what jar it was in and they wanted as much as I would give them. Nearest I can tell is they paid about $20 a pound in the form of dinner for me and my wife.


Insignificant and anecdotal. If you ever have enuf hives that produce enuf honey to make you want to bottle it and sell it at weekly farm mkts and especially at stores you will find that what you are doing maybe fine for now, but it won't be fine in the future.

I keep forgetting that my circumstances and experiences are much different from someone w/ 2 hives for 2 years.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Let me ask you this, why isn't honey sold in fluid ozs the way everyone is measuring it anyway and then set a standard that the density of honey has to be such and such to keep the criminals from cheating?


Not sure, it must be considered a solid. Liquids and oils are sold by fluid oz. But ketchup, canned corn, honey, and almost everything else is sold by weight.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Let me ask you this, why isn't honey sold in fluid ozs the way everyone is measuring it anyway and then set a standard that the density of honey has to be such and such to keep the criminals from cheating?


As much as I hate it when people answer a question w/ a question: how do you control the density of honey?

We don't even have a Standard of Identity for Honey and you want someone enforcing a Density Standard for Honey? OMG


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Good grief! Enough already! If you're using mason jars weigh a jar and then weigh a jar of honey and fill the rest of the bottles to the same level. If you're using honey jars usually no need to weigh them although I weigh one from each manufacturer to determine fill levels.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

What do grumpy old men argue about on a cold winters day???


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Vance G said:


> What do grumpy old men argue about... ???


Grumpy old women?????........................


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sofia Loren. Growl.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> how do you control the density of honey?


I am certain the big guys are doing it. I think Ted even mentioned outfits like Sue Bee require consistency. But as far as weights and measures go you don't need to control the density of honey if it is unprocessed honey. What ever the variation of "honey" is it is. That becomes the tolerance. If you are cheating (thinning it down to the low side) then you have to watch it. If all you do is weigh a jar once and fill to the same line you are not controlling weight you are filling to a set volume and as the density changes so will the weight. If there is no upper limit then yes you can pick a lower number to put on your label. Which means it doesn't matter what container you use. I have seen honey in all kinds of containers with all different odd ball weights. Nobody cares. It seems the more odd ball the weight the more the honey cost per pound. Lets face it anybody that would eat a natural product like honey out of a plastic squeeze bear really doesn't understand natural substances.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Acebird said:


> If you are cheating (thinning it down to the low side) then you have to watch it.
> 
> 
> Lets face it anybody that would eat a natural product like honey out of a plastic squeeze bear really doesn't understand natural substances.


If you are altering the honey in any fashion you need a food processors lic in this state and its called adultered honey. I believe if anyone is caught doing so they would find them selves with alot of surpluss thin honey.

Ace what does your last comment have to do with this thread?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

It goes along with the label requirement of putting a weight on a container at the grass roots level. If you are at a farmers stand and you have a plastic bear on the table the selective consumer is going to walk right by. On the other hand if you have a pamphlet on the table that says "These Ball jars can hold up to 24 oz of honey but we put 22oz on the label because we don't really weigh each jar", they will snatch them up. Keep that in mind if that is who you are selling to.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BMAC said:


> If you are altering the honey in any fashion you need a food processors lic in this state and its called adultered honey.


Yeah, and technically you need a pistol permit to rob a bank with a handgun. No honest person that is producing less than a ton of honey is going to thin down the honey but they may blend it to get consistency from batch to batch.

Bmac, if you put a dehumidifier in your hot room are you adulterating the honey?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

That is a pretty interesting thought. Being that you would attempt to remove excess moisture from uncured honey to keep it from fermenting no. "Adulterated Honey" term in the industry refers to adding stuff that shouldn't be added to honey and specifically deals with labeling the honey as 100% pure. So if you are removing excess moisture via dehumidfyer you are not actually adding anything into the honey that should not be there as 100% pure honey. You are simply reducing the moisture content of uncured honey.

Personally I do not use a dehumidifyer in my extracting room.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Acebird said:


> It goes along with the label requirement of putting a weight on a container at the grass roots level. If you are at a farmers stand and you have a plastic bear on the table the selective consumer is going to walk right by. On the other hand if you have a pamphlet on the table that says "These Ball jars can hold up to 24 oz of honey but we put 22oz on the label because we don't really weigh each jar", they will snatch them up. Keep that in mind if that is who you are selling to.


With years of experience of sitting at farmers markets and selling honey to the "crunchies" at the grass roots level I can tell you that you need to cater a little bit to your customers for the packaging. Some want it in a squeeze bear. Some want it in only glass containers. Some want it in a plastic 5 gallon bucket. Some want it in a metal 5 gallon bucket. Some only want crystalized honey. Some believe that crystalized honey might be bad. So if you were to sit at a farmers market and sell any honey you produce I would suggest you do your marketing homework and find out what your local populace demands.

I also found that first hand talking with the folks and a little education on their part goes a long way. Most get bored after a few minutes of talking about it and make their purchase and move on.


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

What is the floral source of the lightest (weight/gallon) honey? What is the weight in pounds per gallon? I know there is variation, but I'm asking about the extreme low end.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Thats assuming floral source is the only thing that determines it. It was always my assumption foral source and rain/ground moisture determines it.


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

If the honey is up to gravity and capped, moisture content shouldn't be a factor. If you let it sit around in an open container in the fog after extracting you could factor in moisture content. I thought the simple sugars which make up honey had different densities, so changing their ratios (such as different floral sources) would affect the weight/volume of each honey. Somewhere in my distant past I seem to remember seeing a chart that listed honey from dozens of floral sources. It gave the weight per gallon as well as the percentages of each of the simple sugars and mineral contents that made up a particular honey. I've made searches online but haven't relocated it. If anyone can direct me to a chart like that I would be very grateful.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BMAC said:


> Being that you would attempt to remove excess moisture from uncured honey to keep it from fermenting no.


 If you allow the extraction of moisture from the honey then you have to allow the absorption of moisture into the honey. So I can easily affect the density of honey by which way I move the moisture.

I know this is another thread but if you do not define (set standards) for honey it is another reason why I feel net wt. on a jar of honey is bogus.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

It is what it is. Its like any goat being bought or sold is supposed to have a scrapie tag in its ear. Many have them. Many dont. Im sure that honey being sold by weight started with packers buying drums of honey. 55 gallon drum can hold anything less. Packers will buy 1/2 drums of honey. However they wont pay full price for 1/2 drums. They pay you by the lbs. From what I have seen its the packers and importers that set the honey rules we follow in this country. Good or bad, it is what it is.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I am certain the big guys are doing it. I think Ted even mentioned outfits like Sue Bee require consistency.


You shouldn't make assumptions about things you don't know. I know no one who adds water to low moisture honey. No one. I do know occasions when high moisture honey had been dried. I've seen it done and have seen videos of LARGE Operations doing so. Maybe that's what you are refering to.

How much variation in weight do you suppose there is in a one pound honey jar filled to the brim and one filled 1/4inch less? If they both are more than a pounds worth of honey and the label says One Pound, does it matter?

What constitutes an "odd ball weight"? How do you corrolate the more the odd ball weight the higher the price?

If a honey jar is filled to the brim w/ 16.5% moisture content honey and another jar is filled to the brim w/ 18.5% moisture content honey how much less will one weigh than the other, both being one pound honey jars?

If I have 16.5% moisture content honey, do I have to put more of that in a jar to equal the volume of 18.5% moisture content honey it takes to make a pound of honey in a jar?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Here's another way to look at it BMAC. We who pack honey are selling a pound of honey, we aren't selling jars w/ honey in them. If that makes sense.

Acebird can sell honey w/ as much or as little honey in as big a jar as he wants for whatever odd ball price he wants to sell it at because he isn't going to put a label on it anyway.

Do you do that and get away w/ it at the Farmers Mkt in Utica, Acebird?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> You shouldn't make assumptions about things you don't know. I know no one who adds water to low moisture honey. No one. I do know occasions when high moisture honey had been dried. I've seen it done and have seen videos of LARGE Operations doing so.


This sounds like a silly argument. If they take moisture out of honey that would imply there was too much in it to begin with, right? So if they didn't take the moisture out they would be putting in moisture by default.

I don't know what your beef is about putting moisture in. Unless you store your honey in a climate controlled room you could very well be putting moisture in yourself. I'll take a stab that you may harvest honey on a moist day and that you don't have any climate controlled rooms. Here is something else to think about. Moisture passes through plastic quite readily. It won't go through glass and it won't go through metal. Where are you storing your buckets and for how long? Have you ever tested your honey that has been on the shelf for a year to see how much it varies?

For all your other questions I don't know the answer. I suspect it is not much of a variation in volume for a one pound bear, for a 55 gal drum I could see it making a measurable difference.


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## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

I would think that a lable on a pint ball jar that stated "Mininum Weight 22 Oz" would cover most regulations as long as you fill the jar past the 22 Oz mark. 
If you are going to weigh each jar then you will need a certified scale that needs to be checked and labled every year by the dept of Agriculture.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How does not taking moisture out mean that someone is by default adding moisture?

I didn't ask you about either a bear or a drum. You really do like to obfuscate questions you don't know the answer to or how find the answer to, seems to me.

I don't see hoiw you can make assumptions about the adding of moisture by keeping honey when you only spoke about adding it in response to removing it. Doing so implys that you know that beekeepers are sticking a water hose in their honey tank which is bogus.

What happens to honey while in storage is insignificant as far as moisture content is concerned. Especially concerning moisture passing thru the wall of a plastic bucket. If moisture passes thru plastic, wouldn't it be an accurate assumption that it passes out as much as it passes in? Or not?

My honey doesn't sit on the shelf for a year. I sell it, people eat it. What would be the point of testing moisture content, keeping it for a year, and retesting moisture content? Why don't you do so and report the results? I bet it won't make hardly any difference what so ever.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I am certain the big guys are doing it.


Doing what? Adding water to low moisture honey?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> If moisture passes thru plastic, wouldn't it be an accurate assumption that it passes out as much as it passes in? Or not?


Yes it can move in either direction, which is my point is it adulterated? A garden hose? I don't think SueBee uses a garden hose.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well then, what are you talking about?


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Yes it can move in either direction, which is my point is it adulterated?


Wouldnt honey that has water added to it be adulterated?? I am not positive, but I wouldnt think that large commercial guy would add water to the "drier than normal" honey because of the risk factor of over doing it and there for raising the hydration level to much and then having to go through the process to dehydrate it again..............I just think that would lead to too many time consuming/expensive steps that a large producer would not want to go through. But I dont know, I just have a few hives.


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## 100 td (Apr 3, 2011)

Many years ago I was told milk producers were allowed to wash their equipment and lines out to get the last of the milk out. An acceptable proportion was X % water per volume of milk. These days I believe the milk producer is paid on a scietific analysis of his milk so water content verses fat and protein etc will affect his price.
Is it possible that some honey producers add water to get a higher quantity, ie., they are getting the cream off the cake? We all know that business is business, and all business industries have unscrupulous players.

Also of course, some may extract a frame when it's only 1/4 or 1/2 half capped, but when they add it to X amount of capped frames it only increases the molisture % marginally, depending on the ratio of capped to uncapped?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Yes it can move in either direction, which is my point. Is it adulterated?


No it is not.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Acebird said:


> This sounds like a silly argument. If they take moisture out of honey that would imply there was too much in it to begin with, right? So if they didn't take the moisture out they would be putting in moisture by default.
> 
> 
> Moisture passes through plastic quite readily.


I believe your logic is pretty bad. We all know honey as well as salt and other forms of sugar are hygroscopic. At what rate? Will it pick up any noticable amount of water in the 20 minutes it takes to extract a frame and seal it in a container?

Does water pass thru all plastics readily? What about the plastic wrap they develop specifically as a moisture barrier for your house? What about all the plastic hull boats on the water?

Not much of an argument.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Moisture passes through plastic quite readily.


BMAC raises a good point. This is the first time I've ever heard the claim above. Is this based on a study you could cite?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BMAC said:


> Does water pass thru all plastics readily?


Oops, I didn't say that. Water will not pass through moisture will. The difference is moisture is in the gaseous state.
BECAUSE honey is hygroscopic it will readily take on moisture so all you have to do is store it in a humidity controlled room for a time period. It can't be overdone because as the honey takes on moisture it reduces its hygroscopic characteristic. This is a way to get very precise moisture values in a product where you have a small tolerance to hold.

If the standard tollerance for honey is 16.5 to 18.5 percent moist I could take out water to get it to 17.5 or add water to bring it up to 17.5. Is that adulteration? Not in my book. Is it shady? Not in my book, quite the opposite. It makes a consistant product by a well conntrolled process.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Here is some logic:

Moisture (in air) is molecules of H2O suspended in air. 

H2O is water, 1 H2O is is 1 molecule of water

If Moisture (in air) is H2O suspended in air

then moisture is water.

Moisture in the air is not truly in the gaseous state, but rather molecules of H2O suspended in the gaseous state of the ambient gases that surround our world we like to call the air. Though it may seem like its part of the air, it just simply like dust floating around in the air which can be easily seperated by mechanically means.


Have you ever left honey in a plastic container for a period of time in a moisture controlled room to check the water content of the honey and record it?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

http://www.usp.org/pdf/EN/USPNF/PF35(2)-Stim1.pdf

There is tons of info on moisture transmission rates way beyond my mental capabilities. I do know for a fact that moisture acts like a gas and water acts like a liquid. Anyone involved in packaging food, drugs or medical products will (should) know this.

So far nobody has tried to sell beer in a plastic bottle.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I couldn't help but edcuate myself with the PDF file you posted. I would like to comment just a little bit. 

1. Beer companies have successfully sold beer in plastic containers. Some of the most popular are keg systems commonly called BEER BALLS. I used to buy them all the time when I was a kid.

2. It appears the thickness of the material being used is 2 mil. Now I don't know what that means except its aweful thin material. 

The 2-mil PCTFE film (supplied by TekniPlex,) is structured
as 2-mil PCTFE/2-mil PE/7.5-mil PVC. The lidding
foil (supplied by Alcan) is structured as paper/adhesive/
polyester/adhesive/1-mil aluminum foil/heat-seal coating.

Taken from the PDF file provided. I remember the permeation experiments in 9th grade consisted of a extremely thin plastic like material to show that distilled water will pass thru this material to help dillute the hygroscopic salt water on the other side of the membrane. 

What was the purpose of this experiment they conducted? Is it to show that the plastic seals we see on medicine bottles are too thin to keep moisture out?

Does their experiment really pertain to the storage of honey in plastic containers?

If all plastics permeat water wouldn't I have an issue with the 50lbs of sodium hydroxide I store in a (old honey bucket) plastic container being its highly hygroscopic and reacts with an exciting exothermic reaction when ionically bonded with H2O?

I have had it stored in there for years.

Im just curious.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> If the standard tollerance for honey is 16.5 to 18.5 percent moist I could take out water to get it to 17.5 or add water to bring it up to 17.5. Is that adulteration? Not in my book. Is it shady? Not in my book, quite the opposite. It makes a consistant product by a well conntrolled process.


Sure, you could, but would you? If the answer is yes, I'd like to see you do it and see how well it works for you. Considering the way your mead experience went, I think you would be more apt to end up w/ mead, than honey.

If honey is 16.5% moisture content there is no need to fiddle w/ the moisture content to get it up to 17.5%. There is also no need to reduce 18.5% moisture content honey to 17.5%. W/in the range is close enuf. I don't see why you want to mess w/ it. Other than for purely intellectual arguements sake.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Ace is dwelling way too much on how moisture affects the density of honey and how that change in density changes the the volume of the honey in the jar. The source below indicates that honey with a water content of 17% has an SG of 1.4252 and honey with a water content of 20% has a SG of 1.4043 (at 60 degree F):

http://www.honey.com/white/pdf/white96-physical-characteristics-of-honey.pdf

This means that a pint (473 ml) of honey with a water content of 17% weights 674 grams and a pint of honey with 20% water weights 664 grams. Using the midpoint of the two SG values, the 10 gram difference in weight is only 7 ml in volume, or about 1.5 teaspoons. Can any of you guys (or customers) eyeball plus or minus 1.5 teaspoons in a honey jar?

To be on the safe side, overfill each jar by 3 teaspoons and label it as “net content not less than 650 grams” and call it good. 

I will let Ace do the math for other size bottles. 

Also, wouldn’t the big packers blend various sources of honey (after testing each source) to get the color, moisture content, and density that they want to have a consistent product ? Why would they bother with adding or subtracting water? 

Furthermore, worrying about moisture permeating through plastic is completly idiotic. The mass gain or loss would be on the order of 500 to 1000 _micrograms _(1 microgram is one millionth of a gram).


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Well it’s about time Nabber.

Some good info in this book.



> Page 12
> 
> Water content	True SG 60/60 deg F
> 16.4 1.4287
> ...


At 80% relative humidity honey can go as high as 33.1 percent water. 80% is far from raining.

I don't trust my math with these type of calculations so here is your chance to shine Nabber.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

> At 80% relative humidity honey can go as high as 33.1 percent water. 80% is far from raining.


Ace, 

I dont doubt the numbers in the study at all. But as usual you dont understand the data that you presented and you are completely missing the point. In the first paragraph that you lifted from page 27, the honey was keep uncovered and subjected to 86% humidity. Only after 95 days did it achieved a water content of 33.1 percent, and that appears to be measured at or near the surface. 

The second paragraph (page 28), is a table that lists water content versus humidity for a number of samples at equilibrium. Based on the first paragraph, equilibrium occurs after 95 days of uncovered storage in high humidity conditions. 

So what we have learned here is to not store uncovered honey at 86% humidity for 95 days. Of course anyone with half a brain already knows this. 



> I don't trust my math with these type of calculations ....


You might want to brush up on your reading and comprehension skills as well as work on your math.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> Of course anyone with half a brain already knows this.


I wouldn't make that assumption. There are areas of the country / world that have high humid conditions for long periods of time. Most people assume moisture doesn't pass through plastic containers when indeed it does. An uncovered container is worse case by far but time makes up for an uncovered container. Many suppliers of honey have it in storage for a year or better. I don't think I missed the boat on what I read.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Ace, 

Let's try and use a little common sense here. 



> There are areas of the country / world that have high humid conditions for long periods of time.


Correct, I am not arguing that. However, prople living in high humidity areas (and everywhere else in the modern world) keep their honey in jars. 




> Most people assume moisture doesn't pass through plastic containers when indeed it does.


Agreed, most people may or may not know that plastic is permeable to air and mositure. However, the amount is tiny. The paper that you yourself cited earlier in this thread indicated that the amount was measured in micrograms. MICROGRAMS Ace, that's a millionth of a gram! It isnt enough to worry about. You introduce thousands of times more water vapor to your honey every time your open the lid of the jar. 




> An uncovered container is worse case by far but time makes up for an uncovered container.


No sh*t genius. 




> Many suppliers of honey have it in storage for a year or better.


Do you really think that suppliers store OPEN CONTAINERS OF HONEY FOR 9 MONTHS AT A TIME AT 80% HUMIDITY? If they did, what do they do to dry it out? Invest in a through multi-million dollar evaporator system? Just to reverse something that could have been prevented with a lid?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Is there a slamming one's head into a wall smiley?

Acebird, 

Shouldn't you be concentrating on ridding your yard of criminals?

This thread is about labels ... do you have one?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I have a label for him, but I wont post it here.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Why do you answer? Just make it one hand clapping and maybe it will go away! Label that.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Dont we all have better things to worry about than micromoisture permiating through our 5 gallon buckets or 50 gallon drums? Did you know that there are bigger things effecting beekeeping, like all kinds of mites and nosema? 

And there are bigger things effecting people more than honey that is a micromillionithcelenoidish bit to moist............like cancer, lead paint, bad drivers and Obama.

Acebird, you worry about your honey..........and I am sure we will worry about ours. Just wondering if you have slept in days is all?

Besides, after harvest this year, we wont have to worry about spoiled honey next year because the Mayan Calendar said 2012 is the end of the world anyhow! So enjoy your bees while you can and write all the bad checks and max out all the credit cards you want, you wont have to worry about paying them back!!LMAO

Mods, can we start a "Chicken Little, Sky Is Falling" forum for those that worry about the small stuff??


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Many suppliers of honey have it in storage for a year or better.


Yeah, so what? What are you saying about those that do and that honey.

Filled 48 buckets w/ 63 lbs of honey today. Gamber honey company has weight checking built in to their packing line. Were they to put an ounce more honey in each jar they would give away 12 ounces of honey w/ every case of 12 jars of honey. They can't afford to do that and make profit.


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

Wow! When I started this thread I thought I was asking a question that would have a simple, straightforward answer, but now it looks like I have created a monster! I've learned the answer to what I asked and will make adjustments to future labels. As far as the rest of this dialogue, let's please take the advise of a famous general--"When the horse is dead...dismount!"


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Yeah, so what? What are you saying about those that do and that honey.


I will say this Mark, if this honey was stored in a steel drum or a glass container you could tell the difference in taste between the same honey stored in the plastic container. Part of the reason for this is because the moisture (as small as it is) passes to and fro the plastic container. You will have a better product if your long term storage was not in plastic and filled just before shipping.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> You will have a better product if your long term storage was not in plastic and filled just before shipping.


Most packers of a size larger than mine buy and styore their honey in barrels. They use it all thru the year as needed to fill orders.

I have my honey in 5 gallon plastic buckets for the convenience of handling by skidsteer on pallets and by hand.

How noticable do you think the difference is? What do you consider long term storeage? The very first honey, in my operation, may only be in storeage 3 months before it is used up. Some of ther honey I most recently extracted and that which I brought home today may be in storeage for 6 to 9 months.

What problems would you forsee storing honeycomb sections in plastric for 9 months or more?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I'll PM you so as not to further derail this thread.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

> What problems would you forsee storing honeycomb sections in plastric for 9 months or more?


If I was Acebird, I would stop answering these questions for free... 



Acebird.... make them pay!


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I will say this Mark, if this honey was stored in a steel drum or a glass container you could tell the difference in taste between the same honey stored in the plastic container. Part of the reason for this is because the moisture (as small as it is) passes to and fro the plastic container. You will have a better product if your long term storage was not in plastic and filled just before shipping.


So here is Ace's opinion. A guy with 10 months of experience with 2 beehives, says he is an engineer yet admits he has no math skills, has provided bad advice in more than 2600 posts, hasnt learned a thing from reading this great and awesome forum, and obviously has reading and comprehension problems. 

Now we are supposed to beleive that his palate is refined enough to detect 10 micrograms of water that has permeated a 50 gallon plastic honey barrel???

:lpf::lpf::lpf::lpf:


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

This has been entertaining to follow. Sure beats looking out the window at snow. 

I did learn something new though. I did not realize that plastic containers are water permeable, though miniscule. I'm sure it will not effect the storage of honey in any detectable way but it's interesting information.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I have been storing honey in 5 gallon buckets, to use in bottling as much as 28,000lbs during a year, since 1988. I think I'll keep doing it that way and I won't worry about it one iota. Which is more than any moisture which has ever passed thru any of my buckets.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I did learn something new though. I did not realize that plastic containers are water permeable, though miniscule. I'm sure it will not effect the storage of honey in any detectable way but it's interesting information.


Ask older people who have experienced drinking milk from glass containers vs. now out of plastic containers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ask me what? I don't see any difference. But, as far as that goes, I stopped drinking milk right from ther jug a long time ago. Mom cured me of that.

Acebird, the point I would like you to take away is that if there is any difference between storing honey in 55 gallon steel barrels and storing honey in 5 gallon plastic pails, it is miniscule, unnoticable and immaterial to consumers and producers. But thanks for the education.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> A guy with 10 months of experience with 2 beehives, says he is an engineer yet admits he has no math skills, :


Did I say that? Your dissing me for reading comprehension.:scratch:


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

> Ask older people who have experienced drinking milk from glass containers vs. now out of plastic containers.



Well... I guess I'm one of those "older people" because I remember it quite clearly. You are absolutely right Acebird. I recall going up to the Lawson Store with my Dad to get our milk and OJ in glass 1/2 gallon containers... and we never forgot to return the empties. 

I still prefer the taste of any drink or food products from glass containers. I don't know if it has much to do with the permeability factor, but it just tastes cleaner. No metal or chemical aftertastes which have leached into the product.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I don't know if it has much to do with the permeability factor,


It's both the permeability and the leaching but don't take my word for it. Let the fools have their fun.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> No metal or chemical aftertastes which have leached into the product.


I can guarrentee you it was in a metal container before it was in glass. Most likely stored in a metal container before it was bottled.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Did I say that? Your dissing me for reading comprehension.:scratch:


From post 88 in this thread:



> I don't trust my math with these type of calculations so here is your chance to shine Nabber.


Those types of calculations? You mean adding and multiplication?

I guess I should add short term memory issues to the list.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Of course milk tasted better when it used to come in glass bottles. But that was 45 years ago when the milk was whole milk, not homoginized, and came from cows without antibiotics and growth hormones. Although I cant help but wonder how well those little peel-off foil lids kept out water vapor and air.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Nabber86 said:


> Of course... I cant help but wonder how well those little peel-off foil lids kept out water vapor and air.


Nab, maybe it was those little cardborad disks with a lift tab that went under "...those little peel-off foil lids..." that kept the water vapor and air out.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You don't listen do you? That's why your not learning. Moisture can't pass through foil no matter how thin it is. When you want to keep moisture out you use foil.

Pasteurization was invented in 1864 and Homogenization in 1899. Were you around before then?


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Now-a-days isn’t most of the honey in 55 gallon steel drums nestled inside of a thin (or thick) plastic inter-liner? Experience with honey is not applicable to other liquid commodes like milk, wine, gasoline, and Bourbon since they all possess a different reaction to heat, Sunlight, air, time, glass, wood, metal, beeswax or plastic than honey possesses.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Acebird said:


> .... When you want to keep moisture out you use foil...


You forget or else you never knew that the foil caps a-top a glass milk bottle was crimped on with less care than that used to close your average trash bag today. The purpose of the foil caps was to keep dirt off the pour surfices of the glass milk bottles until the house wife retrieved her milk from the door steps. The foil was in place to keep the bottle lip (across which the milk was poured) sanitary, that is all. As soon as the milk was opened the foil lid was disposed of and the under lid (made of cardboard) was used to re-seal the milk.
http://assets4.designsponge.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/magnets_glue.jpg


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Pasteurization was invented in 1864 and Homogenization in 1899. Were you around before then?


I wasn't, but the best milk I ever tasted was milked out of cows mechanically thru rubber tubes into metal tanks and then dumped into a large metal tank w/ an aggetator. Then it was ladels out of that tank into a ceramic pitcher by a metal ladel and stored over night in the fridge so the crem could rise to the top. It's good I got away from there or I'd be dead from fresh milk and cream overload.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't care what you believe but a thin sheet of aluminum foil crimped by hand over a plastic container will keep your food fresher in your refrigerator then the original plastic lid will. Believe it or not...


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Does that work as well if I wear tinfoil hat? Thinkin' a fresh brain is what I need these days.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Scrapfe said:


> You forget or else you never knew that the foil cap a-top a glass milk bottle was crimped on with less care than that used to close your average trash bag today.


Exactly. The foil caps were crimped on. Rather loosely as I recall.


Anyway there is something else that Ace is completely overlooking (imagine that ). It's been proven in study after study that it doesnt matter what the container is made of, the cap (or capping system) is the weak point in the bottling process. That is where the oxygen gets through. Mega-breweries and the likes of Pepsi and Coke have been battling that problem for years and have spent millions in research perfecting the process and they still arent done.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> snip
> 
> Pasteurization was invented in 1864 and Homogenization in 1899. Were you around before then?


Acebird...

You will soon join the top 30 posters on Beesource. 

Are you familiar with Bee-L ? You might enjoy some of the conversations over there:

http://honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> You don't listen do you? That's why your not learning. Moisture can't pass through foil no matter how thin it is. When you want to keep moisture out you use foil.


Problem solved! All the honey bottlers need to do is cover thier bulk tanks with foil and the honey will stay fresh forever. In fact, I think I am going to un-cap all my honey bottles tonite and cover them with foil too. 




Acebird said:


> Pasteurization was invented in 1864 and Homogenization in 1899. Were you around before then?


No, but the best tasting milk of yesteryear (of which we are talking) wasnt homoginized. Also, are you saying that pasteurization homogenization makes milk taste better?


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Acebird: "Pasteurization was invented in 1864 and Homogenization in 1899."

If everyone posting on this forum was as keen to embrace "new" technologies as you seemingly are Ace, there would be no one left here to post about the dangers posed by Genetically Modified Organisms, cell phones, or air planes, so hang in there buddy.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Nabber86 said:


> ... are you saying that ...homogenization makes milk taste better?


He is forgetting that the only thing that homogenization did for the dairy industry was to make it difficult for the consumer to tell how much butter fat remained in milk. However, if you still had to vigorously shake your milk up before drinking it, very few people would drink fresh milk today, we just can't be bothered. Not to mention the problem of a family member lip skimming the cream off the top when no one is watching. :shhhh: 

Since honey is more difficult to shake up, how do you get the last of the pollen out of a jar of honey? I do think the homogenization and pasteurization of milk is very similar to ultra-filtration and heating of honey. Oh well, everyone to his own poison.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I wasn't, but the best milk I ever tasted was milked out of cows mechanically thru rubber tubes into metal tanks and then dumped into a large metal tank w/ an aggetator.


I would have thought you guys at the Folk School would have been milking by hand..... I did my share of that hand milking... but those days are long gone.

I drank so much Jersey milk, that I can not even stand the thought of drinking that store bought stuff. Jersey milk was more like a milk-shake than milk anyway...


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

hpm08161947 said:


> ... I did my share of that hand milking... but those days are long gone... Jersey milk was more like a milk-shake than milk anyway...


Do you mean like this little beauty? She is now a cow who will soon spring a second time.
http://s721.photobucket.com/albums/ww219/scrapfe/?action=view&current=hefierpics.jpg

Where is Cow Pollinator when you need him?


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## dixiebooks (Jun 21, 2010)

Barry said:


> Does that work as well if I wear tinfoil hat? Thinkin' a fresh brain is what I need these days.


Please post a picture of that. LOL -james


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Scrapfe said:


> Do you mean like this little beauty? She is now a cow who will soon spring a second time.
> [/url]


If she does well... she will grow up to be like Bonnie....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Is that little Matt?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Naw... that's little Moira..... not so little anymore. She had another.... more natural.... milk source....


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I actually still enjoy fresh squeezed out of the cow milk. I am lucky enough to live close enough to a group of people that milk and sell milk still hot from the cow. Nothing like shaking up that butterfat and sucking down a cup of it. My kids swear they taste a steak when they drink a cup of it. I just laugh at them.


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

Pardon me if I HiJack this thread back to its original intention, but I've got a follow up question about weight. How much less would a pint jar of honey with comb in it weigh compared to a jar of all honey? With wide mouth mason jars you can get two slabs of comb in a jar. Would there be enough wax to drop the net weight below a conservative label weight of 22 oz.?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't believe there is much difference in weight between honey and honeycomb, so I'm not sure of the answer. 

If you want to sell honey w/ comb in the jar, then weigh the empty jar and then weigh the full jar. The difference is the weight of the contents. That's the weight which should appear on your label.


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## Agri.ph (Aug 28, 2011)

@max2: I agree. Not all honey measured by volume will weigh the same because the weight depends on the viscosity or thickness of the honey.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

canoemaker said:


> Pardon me if I HiJack this thread back to its original intention, but I've got a follow up question about weight. How much less would a pint jar of honey with comb in it weigh compared to a jar of all honey? With wide mouth mason jars you can get two slabs of comb in a jar. Would there be enough wax to drop the net weight below a conservative label weight of 22 oz.?


If you were going to be precise you should weigh the jar full then empty the jar, crush and strain the comb, throw that back in the jar and then weigh it again. Or you could just wing it like Mark does because nobody is really going to care anyways about the net wt. requirement on the label.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> If you were going to be precise you should weigh the jar full then empty the jar, crush and strain the comb, throw that back in the jar and then weigh it again.
> 
> snip


Acebird,

This would be a nice project for you. 

Please take careful measurements, some photos and post your results.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> If you were going to be precise you should weigh the jar full then empty the jar,...


Such precision is totally unnecassary.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Nope, it dont matter. And if Ace had half a brain he could have done the following in about 2 minutes (actually for him, about 20 minutes because he has math problems): 

I weighed a piece of empty comb that was about the size that you could fit in a jar (about 2" x 4"). It weighed 0.38 grams or about 0.014 ounces by weight. At a density of 0.8 gram per cubic centimeter for beeswax, this would be a volume of less than 0.5 ml. For reference purposes, 0.5 ml is equal to 1/10th of a teaspoon.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Canoemaker, you see how you get your answer? You got to prod a little but you can always get what your looking for.

Thanks Nabber.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

canoemaker said:


> Pardon me if I HiJack this thread back to its original intention, but I've got a follow up question about weight. How much less would a pint jar of honey with comb in it weigh compared to a jar of all honey? With wide mouth mason jars you can get two slabs of comb in a jar. Would there be enough wax to drop the net weight below a conservative label weight of 22 oz.?


The specific weight of honey is generally given as 1.5 ( it depends on moisture and source). The specific weight of wax is approx. 1.
This given the jar with comb would be a little less heavy.


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> If you want to sell honey w/ comb in the jar, then weigh the empty jar and then weigh the full jar. The difference is the weight of the contents. That's the weight which should appear on your label.


I plan to sell pint jars both with and without comb. I want to avoid having to get two sets of labels with different weights, especially if the difference in weight is negligible. I don't have any comb honey on hand at the moment and I would like to have my labels printed and ready before the honey comes in. If I did have comb honey in stock, I could get real anal about it and boil a pint jar of comb honey. After it cooled I would remove the solidified wax plug and weigh it. Next, I would submerge the wax in a water-filled graduated cylinder to determine its volume. Then I could weigh out the same volume of honey and compare its weight to the weight of the wax. That seems like more trouble than I care to take. Instead I thought I would rely on the collective experience of some of the folks on beesource.com. Sure enough, my original question was answered precisely in posts #23, #24 (one of your's). The rest of this thread has been tortuous to wade through looking for relevant information. To quote a line from the play The Foreigner, "The questions aren't that hard, Ellard!" I thought it would be so easy to let my fingers do the walking through cyberspace, but in the end I could have gone out and bought the scale an earlier poster recommended and actually weighed an empty jar and a full jar in less time than I've spent reading all the non-related posts.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

max2 said:


> The specific weight of honey is generally given as 1.5 ( it depends on moisture and source). The specific weight of wax is approx. 1.
> This given the jar with comb would be a little less heavy.


Nearly undetectably except by the finest of weight measuring tools.

The questions aren't that hard. What's hard is the answers. Why don't you just get your self a scale from Office Max or somewhere. Then put your jar w/ the comb in it and fill the jar to the desired weight. Do that 100 times and I bet you will stop using the scale and be perfectly fine.

Wouldn't you want a different label for Liquid Honey and Chunk Honey in Liquid Honey? They could still be the same weight, I guess.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> They could still be the same weight, I guess.


 Didn't you say it was the same weight?
Canoemaker there could be more than wax in the comb, There could also be voids.


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

I trust that the bees are smart enough not to cap any empty cells or voids and honey will fill those voids when I bottle honey and comb together.

I've been selling containers of comb and honey and never stopped to think that the comb makes the jar lighter. Maybe someday I'll use a scale and find out just how much difference it makes but in the meantime don't expect to lose any sleep over it. Customers who like honey with comb in it shouldn't mind paying a few pennies more per pound for the comb.


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## Capricorn (Apr 20, 2009)

This thread is a train wreck, conductor Acebird....

If you are selling comb honey, the comb is part of the product and should be included in the net weight. 

The states' department of ag regulates labels, and only cares that there is at least as much product as you are claiming. They don't care if you are generous.


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