# oxalic acid



## bob393 (Aug 4, 2015)

I'm going to start using an OAV spring treatment.

Do you guys just use wood bleach or do you buy the Oxalic Acid Dihydrate from the suppliers?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Savogran wood bleach is what I use.

I always hesitate to write this, but do make sure that the product really is oxalic acid. It should say so on the label as the "active ingredient.". There's always a chance that Savogran starts marketing some new kind of wood bleach product that doesn't use OA.

Nancy


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## justbee01 (Jan 5, 2017)

I personally use oxalic acid purchased from a local bee supply company (picked up in person). Why? partially because I couldn't find wood bleach in my area (would have had to order online) and partially because, locally anyways, the oxalic acid from the bee store cost next to nothing and will last forever so I figured I may as well.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Oxalic acid from bee stores here in the US costs a great deal more than from chemical stores or wood bleach.

NAncy


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

enjambres said:


> Oxalic acid from bee stores here in the US costs a great deal more than from chemical stores or wood bleach.
> 
> NAncy


I just let my wife order it on line it's higher quality and cheep


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Dan the bee guy said:


> I just let my wife order it on line it's higher quality and cheep


Cheaper, maybe. Higher quality, well you will have to post the list of ingredients to make your point. I have yet to see any different products from several place to purchase.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

enjambres said:


> Oxalic acid from bee stores here in the US costs a great deal more than from chemical stores or wood bleach.


I just looked up prices here. I can get a 12oz wood bleach container for 12 bucks. Google tells me that 12oz works out to 340 grams. I can get a 1kg tub of OA (1000 grams) from the bee supply store for 15 bucks.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

The only bee supply store that I am aware of that sells properly labeled OA for US use is Brushy Mountain. Maybe others have joined in now, but initially it was Brushy only and a lot of US Beekeepers felt a good deal of loyalty to Brushy because they went through great expense and effort to get the label approved through the EPA. The problem is that they sell it for around $0.20 a gram, while we can buy Savagran for $0.04 a gram. I now buy the Savagran, but I feel a little conflicted about it. I could care less that I am not using properly labeled product. But I do think we (US Beekeepers) owe Brushy some loyalty points for what they did. I try to buy from Brushy when all prices are virtually the same. I ordered an Ulster Hive from them last year.


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## NorthMaine (Oct 27, 2016)

Cost for me to get to the nearest 'local bee supply store' is about $70 in gas and a day's drive. I order mine online and usually it's cheaper to buy from Amazon with free shipping.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Groundhwg said:


> Cheaper, maybe. Higher quality, well you will have to post the list of ingredients to make your point. I have yet to see any different products from several place to purchase.


99.6 pure that's what's on the label


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I buy the Florida Labs product in 5# bags online, 99.6% pure. I trust it more than wood bleach from the hardware store for purity. Cost per gram is really low in larger quantities, less than .01 per gram.


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## Barhopper (Mar 5, 2015)

JWPalmer said:


> I buy the Florida Labs product in 5# bags online, 99.6% pure. I trust it more than wood bleach from the hardware store for purity. Cost per gram is really low in larger quantities, less than .01 per gram.


X2


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Dan the bee guy said:


> 99.6 pure that's what's on the label


Same as what we buy from Walmart. Cost for 16 oz. is $7.76. Or $7.76 for 454 grams = 0.01 cent per gram. Where can we find it online cheaper?


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## TPalmer (Jun 11, 2012)

JWPalmer said:


> I buy the Florida Labs product in 5# bags online, 99.6% pure. I trust it more than wood bleach from the hardware store for purity. Cost per gram is really low in larger quantities, less than .01 per gram.


X3


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Groundhwg said:


> Same as what we buy from Walmart. Cost for 16 oz. is $7.76. Or $7.76 for 454 grams = 0.01 cent per gram. Where can we find it online cheaper?


Good that your Walmart has it our doesn't. Florida labs and I didn't have to pay shipping or drive to get it.


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## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

Florida Labs OA is 99.6% pure. Savogran Wood Bleach is 95-100% OA, which probably means it's only 95% pure.


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## MartinSzy (Mar 17, 2018)

I use Florida Labs with the Oxvap 110. Used once per week for 3 weeks on a 12% infested hive from a acquired Nuc in mid Feb. 
Each week had a mite drop 200 +. Last week #4 I counted 2 to 5 on the bottom board. The treatment works. I like the fogging method.
It is short and does not leave a long duration of treatment from each use. Messing with their odor senses like long term fumigant methods do.
Just imagine smelling Chlorine in your home for 3 Weeks on end.


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## HONEYGUY1973 (Jan 31, 2018)

Florida Labs bought mine off of Amazon... Put mine in a plastic Folgers can to carry to beeyard works great ..


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

psm1212 said:


> The only bee supply store that I am aware of that sells properly labeled OA for US use is Brushy Mountain. Maybe others have joined in now, but initially it was Brushy only and a lot of US Beekeepers felt a good deal of loyalty to Brushy because they went through great expense and effort to get the label approved through the EPA. The problem is that they sell it for around $0.20 a gram, while we can buy Savagran for $0.04 a gram. I now buy the Savagran, but I feel a little conflicted about it. I could care less that I am not using properly labeled product. But I do think we (US Beekeepers) owe Brushy some loyalty points for what they did. I try to buy from Brushy when all prices are virtually the same. I ordered an Ulster Hive from them last year.


:applause:

Dadant also carries oxalic acid ( as I think a few other suppliers ) but it comes from Brushy Mountain. 
In my area, urban beekeepers like to complain about neonics and spraying and farmers using off label pesticides, yet they have no issues applying off label oxalic acid treatment into their hives.


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## Tuberboy (Apr 1, 2018)

I trusted what I was getting from Mann Lake would be the correct product. On the invoice it is listed as OA/Wood Bleach, $10 for 1lb.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Brushy Mountain is currently the only US distributor* of EPA 'labeled and approved' oxalic acid for use as a varroa pesticide. By Federal law, pesticides may only be sold and used out of a container that is labeled with a complete use and dosage label that references the correct usage of that pesticide to control the target pest.

In addition to Brushy Mountain selling that EPA labeled product directly, their dealers also sell the Brushy Mountain EPA labeled oxalic acid (OA). Also, Brushy Mountain wholesales its EPA labeled OA to some of its competitors in the bee business. For instance, Dadant sells Brushy Mtn EPA labeled OA.

However, what Mann Lake is selling is not labeled as a pesticide, and _not_ legal to use as a varroa control. But that does not seem to stop Mann Lake from selling oxalic acid labeled as wood bleach.


*(in this sense, "distributor" is meant as "manufacturer", although Brushy does not actually own a manufacturing plant producing oxalic acid.)


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## Tuberboy (Apr 1, 2018)

Thanks, I was not previously aware of all this controversy regarding labelling of OA. In fact, the instructor of my intro to beekeeping class actually told us it was wood bleach, and he has been keeping bees for 50 years. Will my darknet OA actually kill varroa?


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## Blue Monarch (Dec 20, 2017)

Tuberboy said:


> I trusted what I was getting from Mann Lake would be the correct product. On the invoice it is listed as OA/Wood Bleach, $10 for 1lb.


It will work just fine. They market it to be used as a wood bleach to stay within the rules. If the beek uses it as a treatment, it's on the beek.


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## mgstei1 (Jan 11, 2014)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/UK-Oxalic-Acid-Tablets-/262637245479?hash=item3d26665427

Try these. You'll toss the powder.


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

Yes tuberboy, oa is oa. The purity level is the
Catch phrase. Im.no chemists or a smart guy. But all these chemicals are basically the same in the biggest degree. All chemicals are with some form of inert or non inert ingredients. Probably from the standpoint of lab use. For us , I'd say as long as there aren't any added ingredients other than the chemical being produced. I'd say it should be fine. A label is just for intended purpose of selling. Most mfg. Companies don't or won't go as far as spending tens of thousands of dollars for a label to treat bees with a common acid to treat an insect. They see this as a minute sale to hobbyist. And doesnt affect their bottom line as to their real sale niche. So they let the specialty bee guys do that little bit of work, to satisfy the very small market in that target group. It's basically All the same stuff. Just look at the label.


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## bob393 (Aug 4, 2015)

After some surfing this is the best I could find at a price a bee keeper would pay.

https://www.factorydirectchemicals....k7HD4w5Ko7FzIdR0AZv-yLfc3xD6F6jsaAsGcEALw_wcB


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## bob393 (Aug 4, 2015)

I just ordered some through them. They charge sales tax but free shipping!

2 lbs in a resealable storage container, $21.57. It's 99.6% which is amazing.

I didn't see an assay sheet so I cant speak to the heavy metal concentrations
but this is laboratory grade stuff, way better than industrial grade like wood bleach,
not reagent grade which would be 20 times the price, but a really good 
quality to price factor...


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Richinbama said:


> A label is just for intended purpose of selling.


This is actually not true for a pesticide, the label is a legal document describing it's useage.

If you actually believe it's just marketing propoganda, keep that in mind if you ever have an event where your bees are dying from somebody spraying off label stuff in your neighborhood. It's just a label, doesn't mean anything....


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

bob393 said:


> ..... but this is laboratory grade stuff, way better than industrial grade like wood bleach, ....


What is it that you look for when comparing the two? Where can that information be found? 
The container only says, Oxalic Acid. It would be interesting to know what the other .4% is comprised of.


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

O.a. is not intended to be a insecticide. It's a cleaning/bleaching acid. Used to remove rust, removed iron deposits form wood, cutting and grinding polishing marble, ect. Look it up in a dictionary. Not trying to.be contrary, but this is a relatively new use (Last 25-30 yrs) an off labeled use, that is now accepted for killing a mites, because it's a lethal vapor produced from burning/heating this particular acid.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The 'mode of action' of oxalic acid in controlling varroa mites is unlikely to be through the vapor. Consider that an alternate form of application is to mix it with a weak sugar syrup and dribble/spray it between the frames. More likely is that the vaporization is just one means of getting a fine layer of oxalic powder distributed on everything in the hive.

My bet is that the oxalic acid actually attacks the varroa mites through their 'feet'.


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

So in reality, the vapor is the carrier of the agent o.a. crystals that then kill the mites Kewl.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Richinbama said:


> So in reality, the vapor is the carrier of the agent o.a. crystals that then kill the bees. Kewl.


You might want to rethink that...


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Oxalic acid vaporization (really _sublimation_, if you want to get technical about it) is not an off-label use. In the US, it is an EPA-approved miticide for use on honey bee colonies for the control of _V. destructor._

Nancy


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

Nancy 
In this case the words do make a difference. You are correct that the term is sublimation, going directly from a solid to a gas. The off label use is different in the case of a pesticide. Brushy Mountain did the legwork with the EPA to get the label approved for their product, not the generic oxalic acid. 
Wood bleach is labeled for that purpose and no other. 
Same with using permethrin for small hive beetle, if it is not specifically on the label it is an 'off label' use and the user is libel for any issues from misuse. 
Bt k works on lepidoptera species (wax moths) but is only labeled for cabbage worms, loopers, tent catapillers etc. So is also an off label issue.


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## MartinSzy (Mar 17, 2018)

John Davis said:


> Nancy
> In this case the words do make a difference. You are correct that the term is sublimation, going directly from a solid to a gas. The off label use is different in the case of a pesticide. Brushy Mountain did the legwork with the EPA to get the label approved for their product, not the generic oxalic acid.
> Wood bleach is labeled for that purpose and no other.
> Same with using permethrin for small hive beetle, if it is not specifically on the label it is an 'off label' use and the user is libel for any issues from misuse.
> Bt k works on lepidoptera species (wax moths) but is only labeled for cabbage worms, loopers, tent catapillers etc. So is also an off label issue.


Exactly it Coalesces in the Hive on Bee's and all. Have seen a few after treatment have a Snow covering wiggling and looking at me. Not Dying at all. 
However they mite be overdosed.  I love my mite drop.


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## bob393 (Aug 4, 2015)

Mike Gillmore said:


> What is it that you look for when comparing the two? Where can that information be found?
> The container only says, Oxalic Acid. It would be interesting to know what the other .4% is comprised of.


I just shot them an email to see if they have a data sheet on it. Not an MSDS.
I hope they don't come back with Inert Ingredients.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Blue Monarch said:


> It will work just fine. They market it to be used as a wood bleach to stay within the rules. If the beek uses it as a treatment, it's on the beek.


Do any of you really believe the EPA boogie man is going to spy on you so he can fine you thousands of dollars because of you using OA that doesnt have Brushy Mountain's lable on it.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

snapper1d said:


> Do any of you really believe the EPA boogie man is going to spy on you so he can fine you thousands of dollars because of you using OA that doesnt have Brushy Mountain's lable on it.


No.
But is that the point? If I use something off label, why can't my neighbor spray their lawn twice a day?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Note that in addition to required Federal EPA approval & registration of all pesticides, individual states also must complete registration of those pesticides as well. If state approval/registration of a specific pesticide has not been completed, then it doesn't matter if Federal approval has been granted or not, and that pesticide use is prohibited under State law.

For many months after US EPA approval of oxalic acid was granted, Brushy Mtn maintained a web page showing the status of the various state approvals. State approval was not quick, or automatic, and not free of cost either.

While I don't see that page currently on the Brushy site, the oxalic acid product page does clearly state that OA cannot be shipped to California. A reasonable conclusion is that use of oxalic acid as a varroacide in California is not legal under state law as it has not been granted California registration. 

The individual state approval process also means that individual state agencies can can take action against those who violate state pesticide application rules. Keep in mind that if it doesn't come out of a properly labeled container, its not legal.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

It wasnt legal in the US and beekeepers started using it to kill the mites.No one was fined and people kept buying it and using it till EPA gave their approval.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Marcin said:


> No.
> But is that the point? If I use something off label, why can't my neighbor spray their lawn twice a day?


What does your neighbor spraying his yard have to do with you using OA on your bees?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

snapper1d said:


> What does your neighbor spraying his yard have to do with you using OA on your bees?


Depending on what that neighbor is spraying and whether he is following the pesticide _*label directions*_, and whether or not the beekeeper is using EPA registered oxalic acid, then both could be _illegal applications of a pesticide_.


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

You can find msds on i think osha , and do a msds search for oa dihydrate, it has 2 forms of o.a. So search em both.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

The best thing is to always stay out of your neighbors business and maybe he will stay out of yours. You are not going to know if he is using off label unless you are with him or spying on him.Either way you report him then you are out looking for trouble from him.Respect your neighbor and he will respect you.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

JWPalmer said:


> I buy the Florida Labs product in 5# bags online, 99.6% pure. I trust it more than wood bleach from the hardware store for purity. Cost per gram is really low in larger quantities, less than .01 per gram.


Ditto
Florida Labs is one of the bigger manufacturers of OA in the US> Their prices on Ebay are excellent, the shipping is super fast AND, when I bought mine last year, it included the correct label to use as miticide.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

enjambres said:


> Oxalic acid vaporization (really _sublimation_, if you want to get technical about it) is not an off-label use. In the US, it is an EPA-approved miticide for use on honey bee colonies for the control of _V. destructor._


I'm going to split a few hairs, but, there are reasons it is important to understand the differences. If you want to get technical about it, putting Savogran into a vaporizer _IS_ an off label use.

in the world of pesticides, the term 'label' is not a marketing thing stuck on the front of the packaging with pretty pictures meant to drive sales, it is a legal document affixed to the pesticide container that contains information regarding toxicity to the target species, toxicity to non target species, instructions for use with corresponding dosages for application.

In the US, the product sold by Brushy Mountain is a registered pesticide, and annotated as such with a pesticide label. Generic products containing similar ingredients are not registered pesticides. If you are saying that Savogran wood bleach is a registered pesticide, you are incorrect. There is nothing on the wood bleach label describing the useage in that role, with no information on toxicity to the target species and non target species, nor is there dosage information available on the Savogran label. The same can be said of TacTik, dont think anybody will try pass off TacTik as a registered pesticide for use in beehives, but that doesn't stop a lot of folks from using it.

I have not read the actual pesticide label on the Brushy Mountain product, it's not available in our area, but I do know it was derived from the same data used to produce the label used by the Canadian Honey Council for sale of miticides in Canada, so I expect it will have the same conditions and limitations. I see many examples of folks posting here on BeeSource from folks who ignore the limitations listed on the pesticide label for an oxalic acid based miticide. A really good example, many will vaporize the colonies with honey supers in place, a practice specifically prohibited on the pesticide label with regards to using an OA based pesticide.

I produce a high quality food product which is sold into the human food chain. We carry liability insurance with respect to the product we sell. Use of off label (ie unlabelled pesticides) in producing that product can invalidate our insurance and open us to liability. I know it's a fine line, but for folks that sell honey from the beehives, it is important to realize the implications of that fine line. If for whatever reason at some point in time you end up in a legal liability situation regarding the product you have sold, using off label pesticides in your hives gives your liability insurer all the 'out' they need to deny coverage on that claim. It's a sticky fine point, but, it's the kind of detail lawyers love to find.

The bottom line is this, as much as folks want to wish otherwise, when you put Savogran into your vaporizer and then put it into the beehive, you are using it off label, and it is an off label pesticide. As much as you want to say otherwise, it just isn't so. Brushy Mountain sells a labeled pesticide for this purpose, and the Savogran label does not mention anywhere it's use in this role.

Do you care ? Well, that's up to you. I own a farm and we sell food products. I carry a farm liability policy which covers us in the event we have a downstream issue with those products that results in some form of litigation. If I start using off label pesticides, that coverage can become null and void. It may be a very low risk, but consequences in that event can become very high. To me, it's a simple risk/consequence equation, it's not worth putting my entire asset base at risk thru litigation for the sake of saving a few pennies on a miticide. Your mileage may vary.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Hops Brewster said:


> Ditto
> Florida Labs is one of the bigger manufacturers of OA in the US> Their prices on Ebay are excellent, the shipping is super fast AND, when I bought mine last year, it included the correct label to use as miticide.



While Florida Labs may well include "directions" as to how to use oxalic acid to kill varroa, I would be very surprised that it _actually has_ an EPA registration number identifying that oxalic acid as a registered pesticide.

Here is a photo of the Brushy Mtn product:







Note the EPA Registration Number on the Brushy Mtn OA label.
[photo credit: https://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/search?keywords=oxalic]


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

When I wrote:



> Oxalic acid vaporization (really sublimation, if you want to get technical about it) is not an off-label use. In the US, it is an EPA-approved miticide for use on honey bee colonies for the control of V. destructor.


I was talking about the method, not the source of the chemical. You all know I use Savogran, so you know I use an unlabled product.

Perhaps because I started vaporizing my hives with OA before the method was approved in the US, never mind approval of a source of the chemical, I see this an important distinction, but YMMV.

Ya'll can argue over the details, and select the product that's tailored to your conscience, but I am likely to keep on buying Savogran since it's cheap and it works very well for me.

Perhaps I should amend my quote:


> Oxalic acid vaporization (really sublimation, if you want to get technical about it) is not an off-label use. In the US, it is an EPA-approved, *application method for applying oxalic acid as a * miticide for use on honey bee colonies for the control of V. destructor.


Nancy


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

snapper1d said:


> Respect your neighbor and he will respect you.


I think that is the point that others are trying to make here as well. Beekeepers have for decades whined about off-label and irresponsible uses of pesticides. Therefore, we lose credibility when we use off-label pesticides within our own hives. And I am guilty of both whining about pesticides used irresponsibly and using Savogran in my hive. So no stones are being thrown by me.

Probably, the best way we can respect our neighbors AND encourage our neighbors to respect us is if we all agree to follow the rules and stick to the labels.

But I am neither a good beekeeper, nor a good neighbor.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

The label on the packet of OA says to Refer to Complete Label for Directions and Restrictions. This is the Complete Label it is referring to. Very specific to beekeeping usage only. 

i know it's a grey area, and I do not claim to be guiltless, but this is the only product that is "technically" approved for you to treat your bees with. It may be the exact same product found in a container of Savogran, but the labeling and instructions for use are completely different.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

"It may be the exact same product found in a container of Savogran" Are you going to turn people in for using "the same exact product" if it doesnt have the same label?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I didn't say anything about turning people in, just adding a little more information for those who would like to understand the differences in label and off-label usage relative to OA. We're all free to make our own choices, and I doubt very much there are OA police out there waiting for us to pull a container of Savogran out of our tool boxes in the beeyard. I'm not going to defend anyone's position either way on this, just adding more facts to the discussion.


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

snapper1d said:


> Do any of you really believe the EPA boogie man is going to spy on you so he can fine you thousands of dollars because of you using OA that doesnt have Brushy Mountain's lable on it.


It can happen. Missouri dept of ag officials Are known to pull over a sprayer going between fields and ask to see a list of what's in the tank. One year they were watching for a tell-tale reaction of rice to see if a certain herbicide was applied (was made legal later that year). They were ready to fine producers, even though the research had already been done and released. Nothing is legal till it gets that EPA and state label. 

All it takes is for said official to be curious and see you treating hives for him to check your "pesticide application". 

Dealing with this crap everyday is one of the reasons the farmers that so many bee keepers love to hate on are often in a bad mood.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is a topical story ... 

Amazon, EPA reach $1.2 million settlement over online sales of illegal pesticides

A snippet from that article ...


> EPA said investigation into the illegal products [HIGHLIGHT]started with summer interns in the national office, searching the internet for unregistered pesticides offered by online retailers. [/HIGHLIGHT] Because of the enormous shift from brick-and-mortar retailers to online commerce, “This is a very difficult avenue of pesticides sales to get our hands around,” Schulze said. Asked how much illegal pesticide product he believes is still out there, he answered “a lot.”
> 
> https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...ment-over-online-sales-of-illegal-pesticides/


Hmmm .... summer interns looking to make a name for themselves, and get a leg up on a full-time job offer? You never know how you might come to the attention of '_the man_'.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> While Florida Labs may well include "directions" as to how to use oxalic acid to kill varroa, I would be very surprised that it _actually has_ an EPA registration number identifying that oxalic acid as a registered pesticide.
> 
> Here is a photo of the Brushy Mtn product:
> View attachment 38661
> ...


Why would you be surprised? They are the manufacturer, of course they would have the registration number. But sorry, I am a couple days away from being able to take a pic of it. 

I would be surprised if they did include any instruction sheet. Instructions for specific uses such as rust removal, wood bleaching, etching, or even as a miticide, is provided by the _distributor_, such as Brushy Mountain or Savogran.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

snapper1d said:


> It wasnt legal in the US and beekeepers started using it to kill the mites.No one was fined and people kept buying it and using it till EPA gave their approval.


Just never let Radar know, not sure his heart could stand it.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Depending on what that neighbor is spraying and whether he is following the pesticide _*label directions*_, and whether or not the beekeeper is using EPA registered oxalic acid, then both could be _illegal applications of a pesticide_.


Well I have no way of knowing and he has not way to know if/how I may or may not be treating my bees.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Hops Brewster said:


> Why would you be surprised? They are the manufacturer, of course they would have the registration number. But sorry, I am a couple days away from being able to take a pic of it.
> 
> I would be surprised if they did include any instruction sheet. Instructions for specific uses such as rust removal, wood bleaching, etching, or even as a miticide, is provided by the _distributor_, such as Brushy Mountain or Savogran.


The crux of the oxalic acid registration situation is that plain old generic oxalic acid is _not a pesticide_ in the eyes of the EPA. It is 'wood bleach' which is *not* a pesticide. Its only because Brushy Mountain jumped though the Federal and various State hoops to register their product as a EPA registered and approved pesticide for varroa control that the product gets an EPA pesticide registration number. I'm confident that you won't find an EPA pesticide registration number on that Florida Labs package because _it is not an EPA registered pesticide._ Go ahead - post a picture and prove me wrong! 



And as some people seem to be making assumptions about what _my personal opinion_ about this whole registered / non-registered issue is, _NONE_ of what I posted above in this thread regarding EPA registered pesticides reflects my _opinions_. All I did was summarize what the Federal EPA and related State regulations _*say*_. 

:ws:


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Putting aside the label discussion for a moment, has anyone compared the sublimation between Savogran and Florida Lab oxalic acid? I noticed that the Savogran oa sublimates faster and doesn't create as much vapor. The Florida Lab oa is slower to sublimate (about 30 to 40 seconds) and creates more vapor that looks thicker. I'm NOT saying one or the other works better or is a better product, but I would be interested in someone else comparing them and see what the results are.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

MJC417 said:


> I noticed that the Savogran oa sublimates faster and doesn't create as much vapor. The Florida Lab oa is slower to sublimate (about 30 to 40 seconds) and creates more vapor that looks thicker.


If you see a visible difference when vaporizing, my _GUESS_ is that the product that creates more vapor and is slower to sublimate has absorbed more moisture from the air than the other product.

Absorbed water would be released as steam (vapor) and would slow down the vaporization compared to the same volume of drier OA.

It could be that storage conditions/container allowed differing amounts of moisture to be absorbed from the air.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Is there a recommended method of drying out OA crystals that have absorbed moisture and become slightly damp?


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Is there a recommended method of drying out OA crystals that have absorbed moisture and become slightly damp?


Put them in a vaporizer. First step in the process, when it reaches 100C (212f) the moisture boils off. Technically we are not using Oxalic Acid, we are using Oxalic Acid Dihydrate, which is one molecule of OA combined with 2 molecules of water. During the vaporization process, first step is to boil off the water molecules which leaves dry OA in the vaporizer, then when it reaches 157C (315f) the dry OA will start to sublimate.

My experience with damp OA, it tends to boil and bubble more in the first step, throws off a lot more steam. It also can cause the dry OA to be bridged up off the pan, so you get little clumps of white stuff leftover that dont sublimate properly.

Our climate is always high humidity, and after you open a tub, it will take on some moisture, so we often end up using it again with a higher moisture content. I know it's become moist if I have to clean the pan more often.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

MJC417 said:


> The Florida Lab oa is slower to sublimate (about 30 to 40 seconds) and creates more vapor that looks thicker.


I only use the stuff we get from Medivet, but I have noticed a huge difference between a warm and a cool day. Takes twice as long for one load to finish when outside temps are in the 5C range as compared to 20C range. The vapor looks different too.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

grozzie2 said:


> My experience with damp OA, it tends to boil and bubble more in the first step, throws off a lot more steam. It also can cause the dry OA to be bridged up off the pan, so you get little clumps of white stuff leftover that dont sublimate properly.


I've seen this condition come up in threads occasionally and damp OA usually is the culprit. Just wondering if anyone may have figured out how to safely dry out damp crystals before use, to avoid some of the negative effects described above.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I haven't figured out how to dry it down again, after is has become damp (I even thought of using my dehyrdator, but haven't had the courage to do that, even though it only goes to 140F.)

My work around is this; open the little Savogran pot and immediately divide the contents into fifths and put all sections into zip lock freezer bags. Press the air out, and then double-bag with another set of ziplock freezer bags. Store the bags in an old Savogran canister, inside a quart-sized plastic paint bucket with a snap on lid. One of the bags will be my working source. It lives in a Savogran pot and I dispense OA from it, twisting the top of the plastic bag closed between measuring out the OA. Between sessions it is once again zip-locked closed. It is bad form for a pesticide applicator to remove anything from its original container, but this is the only method I have figured out that allows me to use most of the stuff while it still stays dry enough for good performance. 

I have quite a quantity of OA that has past its prime for vaporizing, but would probably work fine for bleaching wood. I wonder if it has any anti-EFB qualities to it?

Nancy


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I have found that a residue builds up on the hot surface and this will slow down sublimation, so one needs to keep the hot surface clean.
Johno


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> The crux of the oxalic acid registration situation is that plain old generic oxalic acid is _not a pesticide_ in the eyes of the EPA. It is 'wood bleach' which is *not* a pesticide. Its only because Brushy Mountain jumped though the Federal and various State hoops to register their product as a EPA registered and approved pesticide for varroa control that the product gets an EPA pesticide registration number. I'm confident that you won't find an EPA pesticide registration number on that Florida Labs package because _it is not an EPA registered pesticide._ Go ahead - post a picture and prove me wrong!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The EPA registration does, in fact, cover pure generic OA. In fact, that is the _Primary_ registration number. EPA reg # 912661-1. There are also 2 'Distributor' numbers; 91266-1-73291 and 91266-1-91832. The later is the number used by Brushy Mountain on their _retail_ labels. BTW, you may be surprised to learn that BM is not the only bee supplies retailer selling OA. Dadant also sells OA, using the same EPA # as BM. There might now be others doing the same thing. 

I am not at the site where my OA is located. I will update when I have the number used by FLALAB. with a pic for doubting Thomas.

The truth is,_ BM does not *own* the EPA registration number_. The number is assigned to the chemical. EPA requires that distributors selling the product label it for intended purpose. This means that while Savorgan labels their product for wood bleaching use, BM and others label the same chemical for miticide use.
https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/091266-00001-20150310.pdf


We owe Brushy Mountain a huge debt of gratitude for all the work they did to get OA labeled for our intended use, but we do not owe them sole custom.

https://www.epa.gov/pollinator-prot...s-approved-use-against-varroa-mites-bee-hives


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Hops Brewster said:


> BTW, you may be surprised to learn that BM is not the only bee supplies retailer selling OA. Dadant also sells OA, using the same EPA # as BM.


Surprised? Hardly --- in fact I posted about Dadant also selling EPA registered OA with a Brushy label earlier in this thread at post #21, here: 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?343599-oxalic-acid/page2


If you took a look at that Dadant package, you would see that it actually has a Brushy Mountain label on it. Dadant is buying the Brushy Mountain EPA registered pesticide to resell.

I am still waiting to see any evidence (link, photo, etc) that _anyone_ other than Brushy Mountain (and its dealers and resellers) is selling EPA registered oxalic acid labeled for varroa control.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Hops Brewster said:


> The truth is,_ BM does not *own* the EPA registration number_. The number is assigned to the chemical. EPA requires that distributors selling the product label it for intended purpose. This means that while Savorgan labels their product for wood bleaching use, BM and others label the same chemical for miticide use.
> https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/091266-00001-20150310.pdf


That linked PDF is interesting. Here in Canada, the registration for use as a miticide was done by the Canadian Honey Council, ie, beekeepers themselves. I've often wondered why one of the organizations south of us didn't do the same. but if I read that PDF correctly, what it says for 'name and address of registrant', is 'United Statues Department of Agriculture' with the address of the Beltsville lab. Page 3 of the pdf is indeed a pesticide label for Oxalic Dihydrate to be used as a miticide in beehives. What I find interesting, other than the address of the registrant and legal formatting differences between jurasdiction, it's is taken essentially word for word from the label CHC has had for years.

I find this to be an interesting twist on the subject of pesticide labelling for OA. If the dept of ag is the registrant, who is allowed to sell it using that registration ?


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Well then if generic OA is not a pesticide then I guess I am not using a pesticide on my hives!!!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The "normal" process in the US for approving a "new" pesticide is that the manufacturer of that proposed pesticide submits an EPA application, the _large_ fee, and pays for expensive studies to prove that the new pesticide is suitable for the job. Assuming all that gets approved, then the manufacturer also has to pay fees and get approval from _each individual state_ that they wish to sell their product in. With most pesticides, there is a deep-pocketed manufacturer willing to pony up the money, in exchange for their expectation of recouping that investment with future sales priced to repay their upfront costs.

However, in the US, even though the evidence was that oxalic acid was effective as a varroacide, no oxalic manufacturer (such as Savogran) could be found to sponsor the approval of OA as a pesticide (meaning no manufacturer was willing to pay for the fees and studies). In the end, the solution was to have the USDA be the applicant requesting approval, and instead of expensive new studies, the Canadian studies paperwork was accepted by the US EPA without further testing. I expect that USDA got the application fee waived as they are a 'sister' agency. Very unusual situation, to say the least. 

But, still a "manufacturer" of oxalic was needed for EPA paperwork and to pay for state approvals. Brushy Mtn took on that expense and paperwork hassle, and as such fills the role that normally is played by the actual product manufacturer. No doubt Brushy just uses a contract manufacturer to provide the OA that Brushy sells. But, if something goes wrong, its Brushy Mtn that is on the hook from an EPA perspective.

AFAIK, *no* other vendor has gone through with the steps to be able to legally sell "registered" oxalic acid as a varroa pesticide.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

It is the _product and its label_ that is registered with the EPA, not the Vendor. (Distributor in EPA language). Oxalic acid has a generic registration number for its pure form because OA is a generic product. It is produced and sold by various distributors for various purposes. The very same OA that is sold as a pesticide, with the correct EPA labeling, is the very same OA that is sold as a chemical reagent with its required labeling. 

There are any number of distributors who buy OA in bulk from the manufacturers, repackage and/or relabel it, and sell it for their own intended purpose, such as wood bleach. Savogran may or may not be a manufacturer. For all I know they could be one of the resellers. Even you or I could buy OA in bulk, repackage it and sell it as miticide, as long as we provided the correct label for using it for that purpose. Or you could repackage it and sell it intended and labeled as wood bleach without the EPA label for insecticide. BM doesn't have exclusive rights to the EPA registration number. It is a public document for a generic product! Again, thanks to BM for doing the legwork.

Now, If BM had engineered OA and held a patent on it, and also obtained the EPA label, then we could be having a different conversation.

A sidenote ; Both Brushy Mountain and Dadant sell their OA in a foil pouch, consistent with the foil pouch that FLALA sells their OA in. Other providers of OA sell in plastic tubs. For all we know, BM could be buying their OA from FLALAB.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The only "legal" pesticides under Federal law (FIFRA) are those that come out of a container accompanied by full registration application and use label documents. That document must specify the target pest (varroa, in this case) and the correct dosage and application techniques to control varroa in a bee hive. 

Note that what Mann Lake is selling is oxalic acid labeled as "wood bleach", and is _not_ a registered pesticide under Federal law.

So, here is my challenge -- aside from Brushy Mountain and its dealers and resellers (including Dadant), where is a single link to or photo of a similar EPA registered [oxalic acid as a varroa pesticide] product vendor? Anyone?


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Thanks Hops Brewster you have nailed it.There are lots of chemicals that are done the very same way.I am really tired of seeing people arguing and trying to get technical on this.Everyone go treat your bees and take care of them and dont worry about it.Its time for this thread to end.


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

Amen snapper. Lol, seems a bit crazy at times. Lots were subliminating hives before anyone got technical about a label, now they are fogging without a label, and crack pipe method for o.a. before all the new fancy, and expensive gadgets. I'm a new beek, and have read tons about these things. Have learned allot of pros and cons on allot of these methods. I still have questions about many as well. I'm not into a epa label, ill.look up a msds sheet or ask experienced folks here that has tried a particular method. or who packages the same item with a different label, even though it's the same product. All chemicals have a product number listed by epa, and all have msds sheets for their intended use. Ect. Ect. Some will list this number , some will not. Also some will have instructions , and some will not. Big chemical mfgs. Will usually not go through the process, or even a label process because.... they sell tons and tons of a chemical, and don't care about a few bucks from small niche markets like ours. They sell to others and let them do that stuff. Just not enough money in it for them. Just seems to my reasoning, that this is usually the case. Just a thought on this label thing.


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## leww37334 (Jun 28, 2019)

I know this is an oid thread, but I read online (I know) that only brushymountain OA has EPA approval can anybody confirm or deny?


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

No one 'owns' an EPA approval, it is a public document. Oxalic acid is a common, naturally occurring chemical and no one owns a patent on it. Some producer or another might have patent on production method, but not the chemical itself.
To sell OA as a miticide, the vendor must include the EPA label with the package.

There are other beekeeping vendors selling OA as a miticide, such as Dadant. I can't speak for Dadant, but I presume they checked with there lawyers before selling a chemical as a Federally regulated miticide. It would be business suicide otherwise!
I bought mine from Florida Labs, just one of many manufacturers of OA, and they included the required EPA label.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

leww37334 said:


> I know this is an oid thread, but I read online (I know) that only brushymountain OA has EPA approval can anybody confirm or deny?


Now that BM is now defunct, another manufacturer has packaged OA with the approved for use in beehive label. I'll try to find out who and post.
Here it is. Betterbee is selling Api-Bioxal, which is OA.


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