# Small Scale Queen Rearing - Roger Patterson



## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

I'm thinking of taking a class here at a local University of queen rearing this winter myself with my apiary plans based on an expansion this year to become proficient beyond simple walk away splits and get focused on more selective, genetic/behavioral breeding. I had attended a bee club meeting on queen rearing where the speaker seemed to be more focused on his opinion which tainted his science. One of our members, who is a full-time commercial guy challenged some of the speakers (privately afterwards) with some commonsense techniques which immediately raised the speaker's ire. One of the problems with beekeeping is some people get so dug into what worked or they think worked that they close their eyes to new ideas or ideas that have worked for 100 years. As a newbie, I'm learning everyday-even in winter. I would like to see more training for beekeepers who are now several years into it (I prefer in-person with actual exchange) on advancing skills such as colony management (scaled up beyond less than10 hives or beginner level), disease identification and treatment, things like forage identification/management along with scaled queen breeding. I'll look into this video-thanks!


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Haven’t really followed Mr. Patterson much, though his name and material comes up frequently.

The overall point I agree with. Making a few good queens by any means will change everything.

I remember having a queen failure several years ago, ordering a new queen which didn’t “take”, and spending the rest of the season getting bees back in that box after hive beetles finished off some pollen frames. Another time I ordered a queen from OH which was dried out when it arrived.

But like the quote said, other than doing a split and hoping, raising queens was best left to professionals. This is just not true. If you have 2 strong-ish hives, you can raise a few queens. If you have 3-4, you can do more and risk less. If you 7-8, you should never have to buy bees again (after some general stock weeding).

I had multiple guys ramp up from a few to 50-ish colonies buying queens from me this year. Some were doing splits in the process and hedging the failure with my queens. But in every case I encouraged them to try and raise a few.

One guy had been driving to GA to buy queens for himself and another man. He told me he knew his limits and after seeing people graft on YouTube he knew he couldn’t do it. He pointed out that I am 20 miles from his home (even closer to one of his yards), so why would he ever need to raise queens? That’s a good customer, but the limitation is in his head and no where else. You don’t have to graft to raise queens.


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

joebeewhisperer said:


> You don’t have to graft to raise queens.


I may be like some of your customers-I went from 2 to 5 to 32 and am hoping to get to 60-70 this year along with some late summer nucs to over winter for next. While I had a 90% (9 out of 10) sucess with a really dumb (meaning me) group of walk aways last Spring) I'd like to have better controls where I can have resource frames ready, graft 10-20 cells and do a bunch of 3 -5 frames split to build out during late summer and get strong enough to over-winter. 



joebeewhisperer said:


> If you 7-8, you should never have to buy bees again (after some general stock weeding).


I have 32 hives right now and have been told that I should never buy bees again by several on this forum. I am somewhat on the fence but with a focus on growth (I always think of Scoobertdoo when I write about expansion) I may buy 10-20 nucs or do some early season splits with southern queens (There I said it!! -Mark Levine) but would like to have honey production hives available for early flow. Either grow bees or have honey as they say!


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## plantman (May 30, 2020)

I suggest googling Hamptons Road Beekeeping They have a few good vids on small scale queen rearing..Limited resources in 5 frame nuc..Very simple..If you get to third part of the series you should have a good line going forward


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

plantman said:


> I suggest googling Hamptons Road Beekeeping They have a few good vids on small scale queen rearing..Limited resources in 5 frame nuc..Very simple..If you get to third part of the series you should have a good line going forward


Definitely one to bookmark. It takes a bit of searching on the linked page to find the connecting link to the 6 videos on queen rearing. I just bounced thru them but looks like a very comprehensive coverage, well explained in easy to understand level


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

joebeewhisperer said:


> ....... He told me he knew his limits and after seeing people graft on YouTube he knew he couldn’t do it. He pointed out that I am 20 miles from his home (even closer to one of his yards), so why would he ever need to raise queens? That’s a good customer, but the limitation is in his head and no where else. You don’t have to graft to raise queens.
> ..............................
> You don’t have to graft to raise queens.


Exactly right.
But the current fad goes something like - "you must graft and raise your own best queens using the starter, finisher and the coolest micro-nucs OR you are a failure".
Meh.
I am a hobbyist and can do whatever the heck I wanna do.
Don't have to report to anyone either.


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## plantman (May 30, 2020)

I like doing both...I really like waiting until the last second on swarm cells and do direct splits.Its truly amazing to watch a queen hatch then walk in..


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

You can get all the fun you need either way, or you can mix and match and get the fun of both!
I put in a frame with open brood for a queen right test last summer and figured heck lets try my hand at cell notching a la Mel of Queens on the Spot fame. I got some nice cells started and wound up putting that frame in a colony of a local Amish gentleman whose hive had gone queenless. Another colony started supercedure and I used some of those cells to start a nuc. I replaced them with a queen cell grafted from the Buckfast queens I brought in.

I have reason to believe I have a drone congregation area only a few hundred yards from my bee yard so can probably influence the drone component too. Very enjoyable.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

del duplicate


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

plantman said:


> I suggest googling Hamptons Road Beekeeping


Pretty sure I recognize one of those pics from on here. 

@ruthiesbees I think?


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## plantman (May 30, 2020)

It's on You tube Hamptons roads washost.Dr Shawn Kenny was speaker.


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## plantman (May 30, 2020)




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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Here is a link to the 6 videos. Methods are geared to raising about 10 cells at a time in a fairly small hive. Easy on resources. I think he touches all the bases in providing the essentials to quality queens. I would say it is thorough without padding things with over the heads complexity. http://www.hamptonroadsbeekeepers.org/queenrearing


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

12 vids I count - still watching them.


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## plantman (May 30, 2020)

It works very well.This was my first time.
Easily could have done more cups...I then split the cell starter finisher into 2 frame nucs to see how they lay


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

LarryBud said:


> I may be like some of your customers-I went from 2 to 5 to 32 and am hoping to get to 60-70 this year along with some late summer nucs to over winter for next. While I had a 90% (9 out of 10) sucess with a really dumb (meaning me) group of walk aways last Spring) I'd like to have better controls where I can have resource frames ready, graft 10-20 cells and do a bunch of 3 -5 frames split to build out during late summer and get strong enough to over-winter.
> 
> 
> 
> I have 32 hives right now and have been told that I should never buy bees again by several on this forum. I am somewhat on the fence but with a focus on growth (I always think of Scoobertdoo when I write about expansion) I may buy 10-20 nucs or do some early season splits with southern queens (There I said it!! -Mark Levine) but would like to have honey production hives available for early flow. Either grow bees or have honey as they say!


so then do the flow take the honey then split 1 for 3 post flow.
later queens are better and more plentiful. IMO

GG


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Glad you all are enjoying the videos. They are given by Astrobee here on Beesource in case you all have not connected the dots. Dr. Kenny is a fabulous resource for us. There are 6 hours of video but they are broken out into 12 different segments (some longer than others). This was my first venture into trying to record a lecture on video and run the class at the same time.

http://www.hamptonroadsbeekeepers.org/queenrearing


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## plantman (May 30, 2020)

Thanks Ruthie and astro!!
Hands down (To Me)..easiest straightforward I've seen.And thanks to Dr.Kenny..


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I will have to give it another look! 
I clicked around on the 1st one real quick, and hit when he started talking about the importance of selecting done mothers on a backyard beekeeper scale causing me to discount the video and turn it off


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

msl said:


> I clicked around on the 1st one real quick, and hit when he started talking about the importance of selecting done mothers on a backyard beekeeper scale causing me to discount the video and turn it off


I think the threads sort of bifurcated. Initially, it was Roger Patterson doing a small-scale rearing for 1 to 5 queens presentation. The video we're discussing now was at a larger, club, or area scale. Both are great though.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I watched a Roger Patterson Queen Rearing webinar recently and his focus on the small beekeeper is welcome. Sometimes he could belong in the 'Dirt Cheap Beekeeping' thread, he uses some pretty simple tools. 

Thanks for the heads up on the new Queen Rearing talk, I have clicked the notifications so I don't miss it.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

@AstroBee shared a calculator from thebeeyard.org but it is no longer a live website. I took the Ohio State Beekeepers Association calculator and modified it to be in line with what Sean shared (not sure why the OSBA was so different.) Here it is if anyone would like it:









Queen Rearing Calculator.xlsx


Microsoft Excel Workbook



1drv.ms


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I believe that one has some bee math problems

if an egg is layed thurs the 16 (day one on this calculator) at noon you would expect it to hatch about 72 hours later (laidlaw 1979) with a range of 66 to 93 due to gentnics AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAt8wggLbBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggLMMIICyAIBADCCAsEGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMu)

so thats 24 hours till to noon on the 17th, 48 hours to the 18, and 72 hours gets you noon on the 19th... the calculator suggests the larve will be day old at this point. when its just hatching.

moving forward other developmental stuff seems to be a day early as well ie cells capped day 9

In practice when using a target comb in a timing box many graft on day 5 as sub 12 hour old larva is very hard to move and the queen usually doesn't start laying in the comb the instant you put it in, takes a few hours for her to move over, the bees to warm it up and what not.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

msl said:


> if an egg is layed thurs the 16 (day one on this calculator) at noon you would expect it to hatch about 72 hours later laidlaw 1979 ( with a range of 66 to 93 due to gentnics AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAt8wggLbBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggLMMIICyAIBADCCAsEGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMu)


Not sure what that string is - but I can always put an option on here to select the addition of "day 0" or not. Would that address your concern?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Lee Bussy said:


> Not sure what that string is - but I can always put an option on here to select the addition of "day 0" or not. Would that address your concern?


It might, but you might confuse people as day 1 is commomly used



> The queen cell precapping period was 8.8 ± 1.30 days (N = 108) and ranged from 7 to 12 days (Fig. 2B).





https://home.cyf-kr.edu.pl/~rotofils/Tofilski_Czekonska2004.pdf



the problem is rounding error people hear x days... and it realy means X hours... ie if the egg is layed and noon on "day 1" its 1 day old/24 hours at noon on day 2, not 2 days old

so if the egg is layed on mon at noon day one....you would expect it to be caped around wens day 10 @ 7pm... if you go in before hand (say your like me and incubate cells ) you will likly have a lot of uncaped cells... and this has left many wondering what is wrong with the bee math when its offten the cauator at fault

it may not mater to the backyard guy, but if your on a scehdue or want cells or vigins ready on a given date it does.. Ie ready for sat pick up at noon


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

That's good feedback. I also see you shared this one in the CBSA Facebook group. Any reason that is titled "Graftless?"


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

yes, It was the 1st year of the club level queen rearing program (and COVID protocalls played a hand as well ) so I focused on a graft less set up in the FRCB creating timed larva to control the age and using push in cages (most hobby beekeepers are on plastic foundation in my area, so they couldn't cut out cells) around the induced cells on the target comb so you could harvest emerged virgins and stock mini nucs with them..( I use the verbiage "induced" to indicate age controlled natural cells in a cell bulider , "wild" or "rogue" for unintended cells in a CB, and "Emergency " for cells built in a dequeened hive or queenless split ) 
This way we have built the foundation on all the cell builder steps with out scary "grafting", and next year they have a fall back method to produce queens while we teach grafting as a stage 2 step to the clubs that were successful this year and roll out an enhanced splits protocol for the masses that aren't in to queen rearing, but just need to make a few nucs that will raise there own queen, or better yet (and this may be year 3) use 48hour cells so the nucs are headed by improved local genetics... once your comfortable pulling a queen less nuc, adding a 48 is a easy upgrade.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Sounds like a great progression! Since we'll be neighbors soon (moving to KS) I'll just follow along from here.


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## TJC1 (Nov 11, 2012)

Lee Bussy said:


> I think the threads sort of bifurcated. Initially, it was Roger Patterson doing a small-scale rearing for 1 to 5 queens presentation. The video we're discussing now was at a larger, club, or area scale. Both are great though.


Did I miss the link to the Patterson video somewhere...?


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

TJC1 said:


> Did I miss the link to the Patterson video somewhere...?


I was wondering the same thing... Alas, with chores and duties to perform I am committed to spending less than 2 hours a day on this computer, so unintentionally miss much. 

Always interested in 'small scale' beekeeping ideas and methods, so hopefully someone will address this inquiry..

Winter serves well as a catch up period, only because we're inside a lot more..


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

TJC1 said:


> Did I miss the link to the Patterson video somewhere...?


Sorry about that. It doesn't actually exist yet, it will be done live (and then available recorded) on January 11th:


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

ruthiesbees said:


> This was my first venture into trying to record a lecture on video and run the class at the same time.


Ruth:

I finally had the opportunity to finish all the videos- great resource. Thank you for sharing these videos with us. You all did a great job with the presentation.

Russ


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## mobe_45 (Mar 14, 2015)

Lee Bussy said:


> I find it amusing that I've seen enough of his vids now that I sort of mentally "hear" it in his voice.
> 
> Anyway, I thought some of you might be interested in this for what may be a more approachable take on queen rearing for the backyard hobbyist. It should be listed in the YouTube channel when they do it.


The large-scale rearing instructions is the same as for small scale, you just reduce the number of cells you make. In the event you have great success making queens, there is always a shortage of queens in my area. price them to include the shipping charges. Local mutt queens are the best!


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

LarryBud said:


> I may be like some of your customers-I went from 2 to 5 to 32 and am hoping to get to 60-70 this year...
> 
> ...I have 32 hives right now and have been told that I should never buy bees again by several on this forum. I am somewhat on the fence but with a focus on growth (I always think of Scoobertdoo when I write about expansion) I may buy 10-20 nucs or do some early season splits with southern queens (There I said it!! -Mark Levine) but would like to have honey production hives available for early flow. Either grow bees or have honey as they say!


Sounds like you are killin’ it! 😃

I guess I should have made it clear that with enough bees (a surprisingly small number) you shouldn’t “have” to ever buy bees.

There are many reasons to buy bees. I have an April/early-May shipment of RHBA queens already paid in full. Do I need them? No, but I have reasons.

Also, among my guys that expanded heavily (at our scale), one guy would take equipment he already owned and make 10 splits, come and get 10 mated queens at $32/ea and have 10 new colonies. This plan took buying some boxes and frames in advance, but he usually did the splits on Fri after work and had the queens installed by Sat afternoon. It was efficient and met his needs.

Had another guy that would do them on Wed and buy/install queens Sat so he could tear out any chance they had of making their own 

If buying bees makes sense, buy bees.


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## PA Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2019)

Lee Bussy said:


> @AstroBee shared a calculator from thebeeyard.org but it is no longer a live website. I took the Ohio State Beekeepers Association calculator and modified it to be in line with what Sean shared (not sure why the OSBA was so different.) Here it is if anyone would like it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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