# varroa lifespan



## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I don't know how well they can climb back into a hive, but falling onto a dry IPM board or dry oil tray does not kill them. I've found them on dry trays and they are still crawling around. They move surprisingly fast, too.

They don't seem to be able to climb on slick plastic, although probably can on a porous surface such as wood or block.

Dropping them onto an IPM board (or just a corrugated plastic board from a sign), generously sprayed with veggie oil spray and placed under the screen, is fatal for them, and for SHB as well. This is cheap, easily cleaned off, and gives you your mite drop count.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They are more mobile than is obvious when you first see them, but falling on the ground is a death sentence. They will not find their way back in.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> They are more mobile than is obvious when you first see them, but falling on the ground is a death sentence. They will not find their way back in.


What possible evidence do you have for this? I have seen varroa crawling all over a table top, they can survive for days outside of a hive and I am pretty sure they can crawl back in from the ground.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am pretty sure they can crawl back in from the ground. 

It's always in the details... Maybe if the ground is really smooth and the distance is not far but in my experience the ground is usually not smooth. They are lost in the "jungle." If they are on a smooth tray 3/4" below the screen, they might stand a chance. Plenty of people seem to think that 3/4" is enough... and sometimes it seems it is, but I suspect SOME of those make it back. I don't think any of the ones on the ground have any chance of making it back. They not only have to run that far through obstacles, but they have to figure out where to run to manage to get back in the hive. Neither is likely. Both is even less likely.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

I saw a study from UF that said Hives standing side by side, one with SBB and the other with regular bottom boards and the SBB averaged 14% fewer mites. So my guess is that a large number of the mites that fall off, don't make it back into the hive. SBB weren't enough to beat the varroa, but 14% fewer was not bad....


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> Plenty of people seem to think that 3/4" is enough... and sometimes it seems it is, but I suspect SOME of those make it back.


Yeah, well, plenty of people don't know what they are talking about. 1) I doubt healthy mites fall off the bees very much. Mostly mite drop is dying bees. 2) Healthy mites can travel all over the place, either by crawling or riding on the backs of bees. 

Just like ticks ride around on deer, squirrels, mice, whatever -- and also lurk in the bushes looking for somebody to glom onto.

BTW I ran years worth of experiments on screened bottom boards at the Dyce Lab and we never saw any effect whatsoever. I have always thought that the idea that mites fall off bees and can't get back up, is pure nonsense.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I suspect not that many fall off. I never saw any difference in Varroa from Screened Bottom Boards either. But I don't think that was the original question...


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

They can't crawl out of an oil tray back into a hive. I don't know if enough fall to make a big difference, but that oil tray kills a lot of SHB....

Seeing as we are on the subject of mites falling off bees, what makes them fall off when they are treated with OAV?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

What makes them fall off for any one of a number of reasons?

Story of two hives, both of which produce the same low mite counts during recent powdered sugar rolls.

Hive A has a drop rate of about 7-8 mites per week into an oil tray, and the last roll produced 2 mites, supposedly less than a 1% infestation.

Hive O had the same sugar roll rate as A, and a repeat last weekend produced 4 mites. However, the drop rate onto an IPM board has been steadily and dramatically increasing, to 174 mites last week (natural drop, didn't even sugar dust). The increase in drop rate started as soon as the queenless O was combined with a VSH nuc, whose brood is taking over the hive. So the question is, is this VSH breed doing something to drop mites (they supposedly will remove infested brood)? If this is an actual infestation, why are the sugar rolls producing such low rates? And while I'm cleaning the IPM board, I stick in a dry tray. The mites dropping into the tray are mostly live.

Somebody out there must have studied this mite dropping behavior. I expect there are a lot of factors involved, including mite population, but also grooming behavior. Africanized bees are supposedly better groomers. Is this also a trait of some VSH bees? I think the drop rate is an interesting observation but probably not great for hard counts. I'd hate to label a hive of good groomers as being prone to varroa infestation if, in fact, the very opposite is true. But I'd also hate to lose this presently very productive hive to varroa.

How effective a SBB is would have everything to do with what makes mites fall off of bees. For a natural drop rate, that could have everything to do with grooming, which could be very dependent on breed.

I may resort to an alcohol wash to get a really good count on Hive O.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Female Varroa live 27 days when there is brood present in the hive, 2 to 3 months during the summer, up to 6 months in the winter.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> How effective a SBB is would have everything to do with what makes mites fall off of bees.


No, how effective would depend on whether they crawl back or not. Obviously dead mites aren't crawling back up. If they are falling because they are already dead, that tells you very little. 

In fact, I have studied mite drop extensively and it is very deceptive. You can get a heavy drop from a very large colony with a moderate level of mites, and the same drop from a moderate sized colony with a heavy mite load. Worse, you can get a very light drop from healthy colonies with few mites, and also from colonies about to die, where the mite infested bees have absconded. 

I would never use mite drop as an indicator of mite infestation. Either alcohol wash or sugar roll are the correct tools.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

peterloringborst said:


> No, how effective would depend on whether they crawl back or not. Obviously dead mites aren't crawling back up. If they are falling because they are already dead, that tells you very little.


Well, I'd say if they are dead when they fall off that's a pretty good reason why they fell off, but point taken.

Still, in fresh drop from this hive, I'm seeing live mites in the tray (which goes in while I count and clean the IPM board). So, at least for this hive, they're dropping a lot of live mites.

I'm also seeing a lot of lighter colors in the IPM drops. I need to get a batch of these under the microscope to see if they are really mites or just exoskeletons, or if some of them are not quite developed.

How do you study mite drop? I just got a small obs hive and one of my plans for it is to video bee-havior, including induced grooming by powdered sugar dusting.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Phoebee said:


> Well, I'd say if they are dead when they fall off that's a pretty good reason why they fell off, but point taken.


What I meant was: you don't know if they died from old age or from some sort of behavior on the bee's part (or from some chemical, for that matter). The chief problem with mites, however, is reinfestation.



> Mite populations can increase due to the drifting of foragers from infested colonies or robbing failing colonies infested with mites. The extent that immigration affects mite population growth in colonies is not known. Mite migration has been reported to occur from heavily infested colonies that were 1.5 km away.
> 
> DeGrandi-Hoffman, G., Ahumada, F., Curry, R., Probasco, G., & Schantz, L. (2014). Population growth of Varroa destructor (Acari: Varroidae) in commercial honey bee colonies treated with beta plant acids. Experimental and Applied Acarology, 1-16.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Very interesting thread. I'm new to beekeeping this year, and unfortunately, i was in la-la-land and thought i wouldn't have to learn about mites until next year!  Pffft.

Did i just read on this thread that screened bottom boards do NOT offer a significant advantage in dealing with mite loads? This would be a relief to me since i've been beating myself up over having decided on solid bottoms. Having just performed our first sugar dusting (pictures are at http://wabeekeepersforum.proboards.com/thread/1796/photographs-inspection-varroa-edition-photo) it certainly seems as if screened bottoms would have made the process a little easier.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I use solid bottom boards too. It is reported that sbb make a slight difference in mite infestation - not enough to "deal" with mites as a stand alone solution.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Thanks, Andrew. In another thread, Michael Bush recommended a sticky board from Dadant (http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=352) that could be placed on the bottom of the hive in the absence of a screened bottom board. I ended up purchasing a set from Mann Lake that's basically the same thing (http://www.mannlakeltd.com/mm5/merc...nnlake&sType=1&Search=sticky+board#!DC-680/1/). It'll be interesting to see next weekend if anything stuck.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Following this thread...I plan to do sugar rolls this weekend to measure the amount of mites in each of my hives. 2 have been queenless for about 3 weeks as they raise a new queen, so that should have an impact on the numbers. For the one hive that has had a queen the whole time, I might treat with powdered sugar to see how effective that is. (tried it on a nuc in July, but it succumbed to SHB a few weeks ago)

But I am also using a SBB with a solid IPM board underneath. On that IPM board, I have diatomaceous earth, which is doing a good job of killing the small hive beetles--adults and larvae. I would think it would also kill any varroa mites that fall through as DE is used on chickens for mites in their feathers.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

estreya said:


> Very interesting thread. I'm new to beekeeping this year, and unfortunately, i was in la-la-land and thought i wouldn't have to learn about mites until next year!  Pffft.
> 
> Did i just read on this thread that screened bottom boards do NOT offer a significant advantage in dealing with mite loads? This would be a relief to me since i've been beating myself up over having decided on solid bottoms. Having just performed our first sugar dusting (pictures are at http://wabeekeepersforum.proboards.com/thread/1796/photographs-inspection-varroa-edition-photo) it certainly seems as if screened bottoms would have made the process a little easier.


I sat in a UF seminar and the PHD said a UF study showed 14% fewer mites with SBB. Not enough to defeat the little monsters, but a step in the right direction. I use both. I prefer SBB with Oil trays to kill SHB, but they are expensive. I use my solids because I bought them first. When I buy new, I buy SBB, usually with trays. I'm trying TF with Beeweaver queens and SBB. 
My treated hives are OAV and that simply works great, for very little money. If I had 100 hives it might be too much work, but I don't . If I stay under 50, I'll probably stay with OAV. 
Trying beetle barns this year and some of the beetle paper that supposed to catch them. We'll see.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> Did i just read on this thread that screened bottom boards do NOT offer a significant advantage in dealing with mite loads?


No significant advantage.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I sat in a UF seminar and the PHD said a UF study showed 14% fewer mites with SBB. Not enough to defeat the little monsters, but a step in the right direction

Perhaps under some ideal conditions this occurred or perhaps they are mistakenly assuming all the dead mites were alive and well when they fell. I don't know, but that number is inconsistent with my observations. I was hoping SBB would make a significant difference, but I did not find it to be true.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >I sat in a UF seminar and the PHD said a UF study showed 14% fewer mites with SBB. Not enough to defeat the little monsters, but a step in the right direction
> 
> Perhaps under some ideal conditions this occurred or perhaps they are mistakenly assuming all the dead mites were alive and well when they fell. I don't know, but that number is inconsistent with my observations. I was hoping SBB would make a significant difference, but I did not find it to be true.


I guess it depends on your definition of "significant." Say a sugar roll produces 3 mites in 300 bees, and you have a 1% infestation of adult workers on the brood. This suggests 600 mites in a colony of 60,000.

Say you drop 60 mites onto the sticky board, and half of those dropped alive (I'm seeing about that when I use a dry tray). That's 10% of the mites, but the dead ones don't count for reducing the population, so it is a 5% impact. And that likely does not keep up with the population increase.

5% is "significant" in the statistical sense ... it is measurable and does have some effect on the rate of increase of the population. But it is not enough to be an effective mite control measure.

I've tried sugar dusting to increase the drop rate. My largest drop rate (a dramatic increase) happened during a week when I didn't dust that hive. That drop rate is at total odds with the sugar roll count. Something else is going on, possibly hygenic behavior, possibly the beek has no idea what he is doing.

I'm having fun doing a little backyard science on this, and that's fine for me. Michael is trying to raise bees that can either deal with the problem themselves or just tolerate it, and that's fine for all of us. 

My conclusion: drop rates on an IPM board are terribly imprecise, but they suggest when it is time to do a sugar roll, ether roll, alcohol wash, or some other REAL count. The only good mite is a dead mite, so any killed by dropping to their doom in my Freeman beetle traps are good riddance, right along side of the SHB. These things aren't worthless. Nor are they enough. Significant, but insufficient.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> 5% is "significant" in the statistical sense ... it is measurable and does have some effect on the rate of increase of the population. But it is not enough to be an effective mite control measure.


I did drone trapping for several seasons, very diligently. It produced statistically significant results when we studied it at the Dyce Lab, but on my own bees, it did not prevent the huge spike in mite infestation in August. None of the IPM measures prevent this, so far as I have seen. So if they don't do that, then they aren't worth anything to me. 

In our area (NYS) the huge spike in August is what we have to deal with. The hives have moderate levels during the summer, then there's a dearth. I think somehow the mites get spread around during this period. Either through robbing, drifting, or perhaps they drop off the bees onto flowers and crawl onto other bees. This is what deer ticks do.

We have found using MAQs in August is the only effective way to keep mites from killing the hives


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

peterloringborst said:


> In our area (NYS) the huge spike in August is what we have to deal with. The hives have moderate levels during the summer, then there's a dearth. I think somehow the mites get spread around during this period. Either through robbing, drifting, or perhaps they drop off the bees onto flowers and crawl onto other bees. This is what deer ticks do.


Relying solely on the fall management class we had on Tuesday, the graph driving this August phenomenon is supposed to have an awful lot to do with the drones getting kicked out and the hive paring back its population overall. The drone pupae were varroa magnets, but suddenly are not there. The varroa were using them preferentially, but switch to worker brood. The varroa keep increasing their population while the bees are cutting back. Result: very bad varroa load trend.

Should we treat? The guy who is treatment free lost ... what were his numbers? 7 hives, two survived, last winter? The woman who raises queens commercially treats for varroa and consistently loses only about 10% of her hives in winter, and she uses Randy Oliver's low treatment thresholds.

But she is, of course, hooked on treatments. She's given up on bees ever being any different from other modern livestock, forever dependent on chemistry. The fellow who lost all but two of his hives last winter would be in a real pickle if he were a commercial beek, but maybe his surviving queens will one day mix with the others the club is trying to raise to be locally hardy breeds. TF is a hard choice. If you're commercial, probably not even a choice.

Me, I expect there's a dose of formic acid in the near future for that one hive with the high drop rate, but I'm really curious as to what is actually going on in there. It is possible I'm seeing them deal with the issue. My sugar roll rate suggests perhaps a 1.5% mite load, in which case last week's 174 mites dropped, many of them alive, might be disproportionate to the actual load, in other words, pretty significant. But if they're dealing with it, it is the daughters of a VSH queen raised here in Virginia who are responsible.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Ug. I just don't know what to do. I keep see-sawing back and forth over sugar dusts versus mite away quick strips. The latter would certainly be the easier and possibly the more effective option but ...

GAH!

Would anyone care to weigh in? Pictures at http://wabeekeepersforum.proboards....on-varroa-edition-photo?page=1&scrollTo=12258

I've been reading so many varroa threads this morning that they're all kind of blending into one. Someone, somewhere, made a wonderful point that if you opt for not treating your purchased packages and those packages fail over the winter, all you've lost is the price of those packages (and there has been much experience gained). That very notion has been swimming around in my mind since we first discovered varroa in our two hives, and seeing it stated so clearly kind of reinforced the concept. The calculation is different of course for anyone who made a more bold initial investment, and who is more than just a backyard hobbyist ...

Who knew there would be so much decision making in beekeeping?


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

peterloringborst said:


> We have found using MAQs in August is the only effective way to keep mites from killing the hives


Is that because they die of queenlessness instead?


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Can someone(s) post a link to threads, or explain about alcohol wash, I have never heard of it. Is sugar roll the same as sugar dusting? If not what is sugar roll? Thanks.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Can someone(s) post a link to threads, or explain about alcohol wash

See this page from Randy Oliver for a discussion of various sampling methods, including alcohol:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-reconnaissance-mite-sampling/


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

lakebilly said:


> Can someone(s) post a link to threads, or explain about alcohol wash, I have never heard of it. Is sugar roll the same as sugar dusting? If not what is sugar roll? Thanks.


A sugar roll is putting 300 bees in a jar with some powdered sugar, shaking them up, and rolling them around. "Most" (see Randy Oliver article Rader linked) will fall off, and you can shake the mites out and count them. The bees are not harmed, unlike the various wash methods.

Sugar dusting means you sift or otherwise dust powdered sugar over the bees in the hive (I use a modified insecticide duster). Theoretically this also dislodges mites, which drop down to the bottom of the hive. If there's a screened bottom board down there the mites drop out and hopefully are gone for good. But the effectiveness of this method for getting mites to drop all the way to the screened bottom board is the question. It may get some mites off the bees, but they may not drop out and then just crawl back on. But it does the bees little harm, and should not have much impact on honey. It is not a substitute for stronger mite treatments, but MAY help a little and buy time.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> >I sat in a UF seminar and the PHD said a UF study showed 14% fewer mites with SBB. Not enough to defeat the little monsters, but a step in the right direction
> 
> Perhaps under some ideal conditions this occurred or perhaps they are mistakenly assuming all the dead mites were alive and well when they fell. I don't know, but that number is inconsistent with my observations. I was hoping SBB would make a significant difference, but I did not find it to be true.


Actually they didn't count dead mites, they compared mite infestation rates on hives in the same yard. Solids vs SBB, side by side. So the rates of infestation averaged 14% less on hives with SBBs.
He was quick to point out that SBBs weren't enough to protect a hive from mites. Being as he had a PHD and UF has one of the largest Bee study programs in the country, I would venture to say they were smart enough to compare like hives (gentics, size, etc), in like locations and they found a statistically significant difference, at least in Florida, And 14% might be enough for a given hive to make it without additional treatments....


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

estreya said:


> Ug. I just don't know what to do. I keep see-sawing back and forth over sugar dusts versus mite away quick strips. The latter would certainly be the easier and possibly the more effective option but ...
> 
> GAH!
> 
> ...


I live in Florida, and mites are a big problem as are SHB. I tried sugar dusting and Fogging with mineral oil. Compared to untreated hives, there were fewer mites, but the march toward hive failure continued. I eventually treated for fear I would lose them over the winter. Since then I've started using OAV, and that will be my preferred solution for my treated hives. If my TF hives survive without treatment thru next year, I'll start migrating my other hives to queens I'll make from those hives.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Robbin said:


> Actually they didn't count dead mites, they compared mite infestation rates on hives in the same yard. Solids vs SBB, side by side. So the rates of infestation averaged 14% less on hives with SBBs.
> He was quick to point out that SBBs weren't enough to protect a hive from mites. Being as he had a PHD and UF has one of the largest Bee study programs in the country, I would venture to say they were smart enough to compare like hives (gentics, size, etc), in like locations and they found a statistically significant difference, at least in Florida, And 14% might be enough for a given hive to make it without additional treatments....


Using my argument above, it might be "significant" but not be "enough". A 14% difference is not as great as the variation between recommended treatment thresholds looking from source to source. And if the counts are exploding this time of the year, wait a week and you'll probably hit your threshold anyway.

But I still think SBBs are worthwhile. I seem to be controlling SHB with our Freeman Beetle Traps (SBB with oil trays, work with IPM boards too). I like collecting dropped pollen from them so I can get an idea of what they're bringing in. You can tell where the brood is by where the cappings are falling. And I'll take a 14% varroa reduction, especially as it is a continuous load on them.

I'll combine that with sugar dusting: maybe not real effective, but cheap, harmless, and I'll usually give them a shot every time I inspect.

And freezing drone frames is likely a very good idea. That's where the varroa are breeding. Our queen-rearing friend hates to do it because she wants well-mated queens, but most of us have way more of those ne'er do well louts than we strictly need.

All together, and with bees selected for such traits as varroa-sensitive hygiene, maybe the measures _together_ are enough. Varroa don't have 200 offspring per egg laying cycle, they have just a few. The population increase is small enough that several non-chemical strategies together MAY be enough.

But you have to count to know.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

I think this discussion would be more beneficial to discuss the life cycle of varroa than the effectiveness of screened bottom boards. Whether you treat or don't treat not understanding the life cycle of this little pest keeps us in the dark as to when and what could really be done. I don't hear of anyone trying to attack them when it would be of most benefit to the bees only for the benefit of the beekeeper. Mid winter is the best time to be most effective but doesn't seem anyone is even attempting to explore this avenue from scientist to you and I. Why don't we figure that out. Some times we think to much and miss the obvious.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Robbin, thanks for your considerate response. That gradual "march toward hive failure" is what i'm dreading and hoping to avoid. Someone said in one of the threads a while back that getting too emotionally attached to the hives can interfere with good husbandry practices. I admit it. I'm too attached. One queen in particular just slays me, she's so whimsical in appearance, with wings always splayed out to one side or another. But she's a tank of a performer and i just love her to bits. If she didn't make it though the winter, i would grieve. But on the other hand, i don't want to treat as some kind of default solution. I suppose all beekeepers agonize over this issue for one reason or another ...


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Slow Drone, i saw your post about varroa living 6 months in the winter, but since most people button up their hives during those months, i must be missing the obvious (wouldn't be the first time!). 

My apologies for derailing the thread.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Estreya I think it has been slightly derailed shortly from the beginning. Less to nil brood at some point in the winter seems to me that would be the most effective time to attack varroa. The question would be how without disturbing wintering dynamics?


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## Charlie King (Apr 27, 2014)

I feel your pain Estreya, I'm in a similar boat too but with only 1 hive with an awesome queen..
Slow Drone, have you any experience with the oxalic acid vaporizer treatment during winter? Its one option I am seriously considering. It also seems to fit well with what you are saying as well (low disturbance, good timing). The only issue I see with mid-winter timing is the bees are already somewhat weakened?


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

I'm treatment free 12years Charlie. I still study every aspect of beekeeping possible. Yes have wondered myself about the usage of OA in that manner for beekeepers that do treat. Not opposed to those that treat I haven't had the need. Low to no varroa maybe regional. Can't say it's the style of beekeeping I'm using either. I have a tendency to lean towards the genetics of my mutts being my success. Good point on the weakness though I would think the varroa would be weak also. Some how a weakness can also be a strength might be a key. I will pursue an experiment this winter to see if the bees can have an advantage that will work for their benefit. Probably set some OBs up for this here in the next couple weeks. Any ideas or theories you have in this area would be useful treatment free or not I will explore both areas.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> I just don't know what to do. I keep see-sawing back and forth over sugar dusts versus mite away quick strips.


Powdered sugar dusting is a complete waste of time, as are screened bottom boards. As I said, I did very careful drone brood removal, for weeks and weeks -- and that didn't work. I am currently using half mite resistant stock from Texas and half regular bees from Florida, to see if the Texas bees can hold their own. As far as what really works: MAQs. I run a small group of hives for the local club and I treat them in August with MAQs. So far, that has really helped keep the hives from collapsing from mites. We get a good crop of honey from them every year, too.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Charlie King, i'm very glad you posted! Misery loves company, after all.  Will you let us know what you decide to do?

Slow Drone, 12 years treatment free! I do love the sound of that. Congratulations!

Peterloringborst, thanks very much for weighing in. I'll probably be on that see-saw for quite a while. We'll be dusting again this weekend, so we'll be able to get a closer look at what we're dealing with.


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## Charlie King (Apr 27, 2014)

Did not realise that Slow Drone but nice one! You are a dark horse or should I say bee  I hope to achieve that someday too... Not sure I have any suggestions to experiment with, I am more of a 'if it isn't broken , don't fix it' type and it sounds like you are doing just fine!

Is there any info on what the mites are doing in this extended lifespan during winter? in a dormancy or living as normal just not reproducing?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Robbin said:


> Seeing as we are on the subject of mites falling off bees, what makes them fall off when they are treated with OAV?


It is thought that the OA destroys the cuticle and mites feet literally fall off.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

The mites are in a phoretic stage in the winter. Best way to put it is to say they migrate from host to host. They can't reproduce with out brood present. That's why I think mid winter would be more effective to attack varroa with something. Yes I believe in the if it isn't broke don't fix it philosophy also, but I do study how to fix something in case it does break.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Slow Drone, it sounds to me like you just volunteered to do the study. This all sounds reasonable but you can imagine all sorts of complication. In other words, somebody needs to try it.

Do you have enough hives to treat some this way, leave the others alone? I don't, but surely some do.

Add to my complication that one of my hives just produced zero mites on a sugar roll yesterday. That's a fluke ... probably should have produced 2 but one standard deviation is +/- 1.4. They dropped 14 into the tray with the help of some sugar dusting over 6 days. They would hardly be interesting subjects.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Phoebee I do have the resources for most studies without question. The question would be what is most needed to study? I feel most testing for varroa populations are greatly flawed you can default to formulas for probabilities and statistics and still draw the same conclusions without killing one bee, but even that in it's self would be flawed. Give me an idea I'll test it but there will still be argument with the results, only human nature. I believe that during the mites phoretic stage is when they are most vulnerable that's when you would probably see more live mites fall naturally or provoked by sugar dusting as an example. There is also a difference in the color between male and female mites when others know how to tell which is which that's another step in the right direction. There is also other types of varroa, not all are a death sentence for honeybees only one type is V.destructor that's the one to conquer. Give me an idea as to what you think needs to be studied how it should be studied in a manner that would be of a benefit to those who treat and to those who don't and I'll run with it.


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## GreenBeehives (Oct 28, 2012)

Oh, and they are a favorite food of ants too.


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## GreenBeehives (Oct 28, 2012)

I would like to see you test thermal treatment for Varroa destructor. Use The Mighty Mite Killer (Beehive Thermal Industries), The Victor (Greenbeehives.com), Apiguard, and a control group. Use each as directed. Take a mite count 20 days later. Thanks in advance.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

As far as the mites life cycle is concerned My understanding is that the male never comes out of the cell it was born in so I can not see how one can differentiate from the colors of the fallen mites as to male or female. I believe there is a difference in color between mature and immature mites but that is for females.


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