# Bleach for combless frame sterilization/disinfection; opinions wanted



## cowdoc

When one is talking about 'cleaning and disinfecting' in the academic world and trying to transfer to practical applications, there are important caveats that don't often translate. Cleaning is often the most important part of the phrase, and that is almost impossible to do with wood. That is why hospitals and food prep facilities use so much stainless steel. Wood has lots of pores and crevices that you may or may not be able to see where really small stuff like bacteria can hide and be protected from disinfectants. If you find a scientific paper that says E coli is killed by this disinfectant in .05 seconds, you might think that is good, but if that disinfectant can never get to the E. coli because it is hiding in some wood pores, the scientific paper doesn't matter. 

The other problem is the disinfectants can be inactivated. Soil will quickly cause bleach to become worthless. Your first frames may inactivate the bleach for the last ones. So, you may want to look at what will survive the process and still disinfect, and now you are starting to talk about really expensive chemicals that may leave residues and not be all that effective to begin with. 

Depending on what the exposure is, there may or may not be anything to clean to begin with. If you are worried about AFB (American Foul Brood), keep in mind that 

1. it is not exceptionally common

2. It makes a spore that is highly resistant to most any chemicals. That is why common advice is to burn the hive.

3. You might be able to see evidence of AFB in the comb you are removing, but no on the wood of the frames.

So, if you are worried about AFB, bleach will not work for you. 

If you are worried about the protozoans, such as Nosema, which does not make a spore like the bacteria that causes AFB, then time may be the key, bleach may work, but there is not a lot of information available here and I think there may be some work going on as to the persistency of the bug on equipment. 

If I were buying used frames and the comb was not available for inspection, the value would probably be the same as kindling. Some will argue not to buy used frames anyways because there are too many questions. If you are worried about AFB, someone could have had spores all through their frames without any signs of disease because they were regularly feeding antibiotics to keep the vegetative form that causes the scales and dead brood from forming. 

Hope that wasn't the too long answer to a short question,

Chris Cripps
[email protected]
800-632-3379 extension 8001
Greenwich, NY


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## westernbeekeeper

So the consensus would be to burn them; is that what I'm hearing? I'm quite fine with that, if that's the advice. I have already burned a handful of the frames, but I stopped because some are in such good shape that I hate to burn them. But if burning them is best, I will do it. Thanks Chris!


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## jim lyon

That's a really good answer Chris. I have heard of beekeepers boiling old frames in lye water. It's a stinky mess and you end up with a frame that has been structurally weakened. Just remember the wood is only about half the cost of a new frame. Do you really want to put new foundation in a hopefully disinfected frame? Personally based on the few pictures you posted I kind of doubt that there is much risk of AFB but why take the risk putting something in your outfit that you might always regret?


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## westernbeekeeper

Well said, Jim. Thanks.


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## cowdoc

The part I wrote asking "what are you concerned with?" is important. If you have looked and are really clear of AFB, perhaps you are ok to use them. If you aren't sure, maybe you don't want to use them at all like Jim said. Personally, I used to use them and now I give them to a friend with a woodstove. Probably best if they do have AFB that they don't sit out on the woodpile also!
Chris
[email protected]
800-632-3379 extension 8001
Greenwich, NY


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## westernbeekeeper

I have not seen any concrete evidence for foulbrood in the comb. However, I'm not sure I have any good evidence to the contrary. So, *I am not sure.* I will probably just put them in the burn barrel. I really don't want to regret anything, but yet, _what if_ they are okay? Hopefully I'm being logical and not going in circles.


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## Luterra

In terms of killing AFB spores, gamma irradiation is the best method as it does not damage the wood (or even the comb). 

Bleach is not very effective at all, other chemical disinfectants are effective only at very high concentrations.

Heat kills AFB spores effectively, but flaming the surface fails to kill subsurface spores. Effective heat methods include:
--dipping in 320ºF liquid paraffin for 10 minutes
--dry oven at 320ºF for 2 hours (this will "toast" the wood slightly and may cause cracking)
--steam autoclave at 250ºF for 30-60 minutes
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2672.2001.01376.x/abstract

Mark


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## cowdoc

Luterra,

The question that I would have from your response is where would you go to get irradiation done? I am not aware that it is available in the USA unless you are a food manufacturer/processor with some big $. Otherwise, I thought all that was done in Australia or New Zealand. If you or anyone knows about this being available in USA, it might be interesting to know where and how they are doing it.

Thanks,
Chris
[email protected]
800-632-3379 extension 8001
Greenwich, NY


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## Oldtimer

> Bleach is not very effective at all, other chemical disinfectants are effective only at very high concentrations.


Not quite right there, bleach is very effective, it quickly breaks down AFB spores. But as others have pointed out, cleaning may be the issue. If the AFB spore is in some wax or somehow otherwise protected so the bleach won't get to it, won't work. But if you can get bleach in contact with AFB spores it will work.

I actually did an experiment to confirm this in my mind. I caught a swarm that went into a wooden nuc. Checked it maybe a month later, lousy with AFB to the point the whole ting even smelled bad. The bees and frames were burned, but I decided to try bleach on the box. The box cleaned best I could, and then thouroughly washed in bleach. After drying, a new sacrificial nuc was put in. No AFB sowed up and the nuc is now a hive. I've used the nuc quite a lot, no AFB,


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## Luterra

Here's one option I found in your region:
http://www.montcobeekeepers.org/Pages/Irradiation.aspx

It's not common, and fairly expensive unless you have a large number of boxes to process or you can get in as part of a larger order. 



cowdoc said:


> Luterra,
> 
> The question that I would have from your response is where would you go to get irradiation done? I am not aware that it is available in the USA unless you are a food manufacturer/processor with some big $. Otherwise, I thought all that was done in Australia or New Zealand. If you or anyone knows about this being available in USA, it might be interesting to know where and how they are doing it.
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris
> [email protected]
> 800-632-3379 extension 8001
> Greenwich, NY


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## squarepeg

a paper sent to me by the beltsville bee lab stated 275 degrees for two hours would kill afb spores.

i did a medium super this way, and it made the house smell for awhile.

if you could find an old used oven to use outside or in a barn for cheap, you could salvage the frames this way.


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## squarepeg

western, i just looked and i still have that paper beltsville emailed me. if you want it, pm me your email address and i'll forward it to you.


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## Luterra

Oldtimer said:


> Not quite right there, bleach is very effective, it quickly breaks down AFB spores. But as others have pointed out, cleaning may be the issue. If the AFB spore is in some wax or somehow otherwise protected so the bleach won't get to it, won't work. But if you can get bleach in contact with AFB spores it will work.
> 
> I actually did an experiment to confirm this in my mind. I caught a swarm that went into a wooden nuc. Checked it maybe a month later, lousy with AFB to the point the whole ting even smelled bad. The bees and frames were burned, but I decided to try bleach on the box. The box cleaned best I could, and then thouroughly washed in bleach. After drying, a new sacrificial nuc was put in. No AFB sowed up and the nuc is now a hive. I've used the nuc quite a lot, no AFB,


I should have phrased that more carefully. Based on the study I linked to (not sure if full text is available to the public), submersion in bleach solution (1.55% sodium hypochlorite) for 30 minutes killed 99.97% of surface spores and 99.90% of internal spores. If we assume that all hives have some AFB spores, a 1000-fold reduction in spore load is probably sufficient. Note however that they used untreated pine blocks with no wax or propolis, both of which are hydrophobic and likely to protect spores from aqueous bleach solutions.

By comparison, exposure to 160ºC (320ºF) heat, either by 10-min paraffin dipping or 2 h dry oven treatment, killed 100% of spores.

Mark


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## westernbeekeeper

Thanks everyone, for all the thoughts and input so far.


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## linn

Could you please write the formula for the bleach solution? I was told to use 15% bleach solution. The laundry bleach like Clorax is 10%. I am wondering if the advice was really 15 parts water to one part bleach? Should you dip the frames rather than sponge on the solution?


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## Joel

squarepeg said:


> i did a medium super this way, and it made the house smell for awhile.
> .


I think this part of your post goes in the "you might be a beekeeper if" Classic statements section 

My memory is fuzzy but I think the New Zealand study spoke about using bleach. Of course then you need to get the mixture right - Bleach at from 10:1 to 40:1 (water :bleach) is very effective for many uses in disinfecting as long as you get it right. The issue you may find is the surface tension in the wrong mixture may actually surround the spores and not kill them. When you speak of not having "concrete" evidence that tells me there might be some evidence. Would you recognize AFB scale in combs? One hive lost to AFB at todays prices, would pay for quite a few new frames and foundation.


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## squarepeg

i think that ben has decided to cull the wax anyway, and is mostly concerned about disinfecting the wood. i emailed him the info from beltsville about how to do that with heat. i can send it to you if you are interested.

lol on the 'might be a beekeeper....", that one almost ended in divorce!


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## Riskybizz

Oldtimer> "No AFB sowed up and the nuc is now a hive. I've used the nuc quite a lot, no AFB, "

Oldtimer that’s an interesting experiment but I wouldn't advise anyone (especially someone inexperienced) to experiment with AFB possible contamination. It is my understanding that AFB spores are always present, and given the right set of circumstances it will manifest itself to a point of visible detection. The correlation could be made that my wife and I were both exposed to strep throat bacteria. My wife developed a bad case of strep as a result of this exposure and became quite ill as a result. I on the other hand was never affected. The assumption could thus be made that my immune system prevented me from the infection. Subsequently, one could raise the same argument that while all bees are subjected to certain viruses and in this case AFB spores, only those with weak immune systems and stress conditions will ultimately allow the spore to become virulent within the colony.


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## Oldtimer

Well kinda, but not really. I used the bleach in a way approved by our government for treating AFB equipment. I've always been very wary of AFB and all my life have never used anything other than complete destruction by burning. So when the bleach way was recommended I was very uneasy people would do it, and not get a good result. So decided to try it myself and monitor closely. 

AFB is different to strep, in that you could theoretically get a strep infection from just one bacteria. Not so AFB, it has to be in enough quantity to give a good enough infection to kill at least one larvae, before the infection can take hold in a hive. Not enough, the larvae can be infected but not die, and the infection does not spread.


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## westernbeekeeper

Riskybizz said:


> Oldtimer> "No AFB sowed up and the nuc is now a hive. I've used the nuc quite a lot, no AFB, "
> 
> Oldtimer that’s an interesting experiment but I wouldn't advise anyone (especially someone inexperienced) to experiment with AFB possible contamination. It is my understanding that AFB spores are always present, and given the right set of circumstances it will manifest itself to a point of visible detection. The correlation could be made that my wife and I were both exposed to strep throat bacteria. My wife developed a bad case of strep as a result of this exposure and became quite ill as a result. I on the other hand was never affected. The assumption could thus be made that my immune system prevented me from the infection. Subsequently, one could raise the same argument that while all bees are subjected to certain viruses and in this case AFB spores, only those with weak immune systems and stress conditions will ultimately allow the spore to become virulent within the colony.


After some light research, I understand this to be true.


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## Riskybizz

As Oldtimer indicated, we always burned everything if we detected AFB spores. At the time Virginia Dept of Ag. allowed us to shake infected colonies onto foundation to save at least the bees. They then offered an ETO chamber to supposedly clean up the rest of the equipment. The thing about trying to disinfect contaminated equipment is that you really never know if it worked. You could even purposely give contaminated equipment (including brood comb) to a healthy hive and they would never show eventual signs of the disease. But I would never do it.


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## Oldtimer

Riskybizz said:


> At the time Virginia Dept of Ag. allowed us to shake infected colonies onto foundation to save at least the bees.


 This practise, known as shook swarming, used to be common in my country in the early part of last century. At that time we were a young country with no regulations about bees. But AFB rates went crazy, eventually reaching, it's thought, around 30% of all beehives. What research was done at the time, indicated shook swarming was a big part of the problem, it worked enough that people did it, but not all the time, so AFB would never be wiped out while it was being done. So the government legislated, two main points, one, shook swarming was made illegal, and secondly infected material must be burned. 
Because all beekeepers were greatly affected by AFB the new legislation recieved enthusiastic support, and within a few years we went to one of the lowest rates of AFB infection in the world. Which further galvanised support for the legislation and rigid adherance to it.

Of more recent times we have beekeepers who have never seen AFB, and are lax about inspecting, plus people with weird theories about letting bees get "immune" to it. This has caused an increase in infection rates, seems we will never be totally free of the disease.

Just for interest, the more recent legislation about bleach, is it can be used to disinfect any material not contaminated with wax or propolis, so such items as a cleaned smoker, hive tool, etc. can be disinfected with bleach. It is not illegal to use bleach to disinfect items such as boxes and bottom boards, provided they are "clean". The grey area, of course, being how to define clean. My personal opinion is I do not approve of bleaching woodware, sooner or later it won't work due to encapsulated spores. I just did it the one time as an experiment. I was very thorough with the cleaning, and the bleach drenching, as I was doing it I was confident it would be hard for any spores to survive. However, I don't recommend to anybody else they do this.

It did confirm in my mind though that bleach does actually kill spores, the box was infected enough that without the bleaching any bees put into it would have gone down with AFB pretty quick.

That's my 2 cents.


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## Riskybizz

Oldtimer

I agree with your 2 cents. Personally, I never felt that using an untreated bottom board from an AFB positive hive was a big issue, but I still have never done it, nor would I. One year back awhile in 1992 our operation had an outbreak of foulbrood at about 3%. At the time we ran 3000 colonies so it was a real problem. We had purchased bees (and equipment) from an old beekeeper 50 miles away and I always thought that the AFB came with those bees. It was a terribly wet and cold spring that year and the bees were definitely stressed. Things were ripe for the disease to manifest as it is my belief that it is a stress related issue. Long story short we burnt a lot of equipment even though the Dept of Ag. was willing to ETO everything at no charge. As I recall we lost faith in that process as believers that the gas would penetrate the wax and combs and effectively kill the spores. Subsequently we burnt everything and took a loss. We rarely ever saw AFB again in later years. I was listening to a local "expert" here last year explain to a room full of beginners that shaking bees onto foundation in order to burn up the spores was an effective means or eradication of the disease. In my opinion the main issue with AFB is that the vast majority of inexperienced beekeepers couldn't recognize it if they were looking at it. That to me is the major problem. I hear all the time here from beekeepers that they leave there dead-out colonies outside so other bees can benefit from cleaning out the residual honey left in the hive. A potential recipe for disaster. I am glad for websites such as this so that exchanges of ideas can be made available so you don’t have to learn through trial and error.


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## westernbeekeeper

:update:

Well I contacted the Dept of Ag here in Cheyenne. I talked to Polly Cross, the bee inspector for this set of counties, and told her that I had these frames and boxes of unknown history. She told me that if you want to keep them, the best thing to do is scorch the boxes and the scrape all the frames clean and soak them in a bleach solution. She said that that's what they do to hives that come down with AFB, and it does work. So I guess I'll do that and take my chances. Thanks everyone for your input.


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## westernbeekeeper

I have salvaged about 470 deep frames. I am scraping them clean and then soaking them in 30% bleach solution for 3 minutes, then setting them out to dry. I am stunned by the outcome. They turned out very well. I feel a lot better about using them now. Here are some pics:

Before:








After:


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## Oldtimer

Bleaching frames? Bro, I'd be pretty careful, it's not something I'd do. 

If possible, use those ones on only one hive, and monitor carefully. The general wisdom here is monitor closely for one year, at the end of that year you can relax some, but at the end of year two you can consider the hive as clean as any other hive.

It's probably most likely you will not get an AFB infection but if the worst happens and you do, please come back to the thread and let's know, it will be useful info. You could also come back and say, if you didn't get AFB.


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## Riskybizz

Westerbeekeeper

I followed your initial post regarding the windfall of your used equipment and your obvious excitement at acquiring such used equipment. It became apparent after looking at your pictures of the used frames stacked up on your post that you would like to find a way to feel comfortable to use these old frames and incorporate them in your operation. Once you factor in the cost of scraping the frames, dipping them or bleaching them, and then repairing them, you are left with one sure result. You have a bunch of used frames on your hands. I am not even going to bring up the subject that they might have been AFB contaminated when you purchased them, or that they might still harbor AFB spores after you clean them. That is up to you to decide as you balance what your time involves vs. purchasing new frames to utilize in your cleaned up boxes. One thing is sure, if you do purchase new frames you will at least know for sure that they are clean. Generally people burn them and move on, don't fool around with someone else's used frames. Once AFB manifests itself in an apiary it’s very difficult to eradicate. I guarantee you that you will lose 10x or more the value of your woodenware after you have no choice but to start burning boxes and frames to clean up your bees if it does present itself. Bottom line is that frames are so cheap in the big picture. Isn't your operation worthy of that practice?


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## Jim 134

cowdoc said:


> Luterra,
> 
> The question that I would have from your response is where would you go to get irradiation done? I am not aware that it is available in the USA unless you are a food manufacturer/processor with some big $. Otherwise, I thought all that was done in Australia or New Zealand. If you or anyone knows about this being available in USA, it might be interesting to know where and how they are doing it.
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris
> [email protected]
> 800-632-3379 extension 8001
> Greenwich, NY


Go to Pg.2 APIARY NEWS Fall 2012
A publication of the Worcester County Beekeepers Association MA.

http://worcestercountybeekeepers.com/images//stories/Newsletters//2012fall.pdf


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## westernbeekeeper

Oldtimer said:


> Bleaching frames? Bro, I'd be pretty careful, it's not something I'd do.
> 
> If possible, use those ones on only one hive, and monitor carefully. The general wisdom here is monitor closely for one year, at the end of that year you can relax some, but at the end of year two you can consider the hive as clean as any other hive.
> 
> It's probably most likely you will not get an AFB infection but if the worst happens and you do, please come back to the thread and let's know, it will be useful info. You could also come back and say, if you didn't get AFB.


I talked with the Dept of Ag and they said this method of disinfection is "approved" and works well and the state inspector uses it, but now I'm reading riskybizz's post.  



Riskybizz said:


> Westerbeekeeper
> 
> I followed your initial post regarding the windfall of your used equipment and your obvious excitement at acquiring such used equipment. It became apparent after looking at your pictures of the used frames stacked up on your post that you would like to find a way to feel comfortable to use these old frames and incorporate them in your operation. Once you factor in the cost of scraping the frames, dipping them or bleaching them, and then repairing them, you are left with one sure result. You have a bunch of used frames on your hands. I am not even going to bring up the subject that they might have been AFB contaminated when you purchased them, or that they might still harbor AFB spores after you clean them. That is up to you to decide as you balance what your time involves vs. purchasing new frames to utilize in your cleaned up boxes. One thing is sure, if you do purchase new frames you will at least know for sure that they are clean. Generally people burn them and move on, don't fool around with someone else's used frames. Once AFB manifests itself in an apiary it’s very difficult to eradicate. I guarantee you that you will lose 10x or more the value of your woodenware after you have no choice but to start burning boxes and frames to clean up your bees if it does present itself. Bottom line is that frames are so cheap in the big picture. Isn't your operation worthy of that practice?


It costs me about $0.90 per frame counting in the bleach and time/labor.


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## Riskybizz

For me that would be a no-brainer. Burn it. Some of us are quite prone to learn things by doing them on our own. I admire that. But remember a lot of trial and error has already been conducted in this beekeeping industry for the benefit of all that choose to heed sound advice. Factor in the potential cost of AFB contamination into your business and then go for it.


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## westernbeekeeper

You are right; it's a no-brainer. Calculation done.  I have only done 80 frames so far, but I'll stop here.


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## Riskybizz

Westernbee do you ever buy things from Westernbee? I order a lot of things through them. I bet you could get a good deal on new frames from them. Good people to deal with. They have the most economical bottom boards in the industry but don't tell anyone ok. Cedar too..........Cheers


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## westernbeekeeper

I have purchased a few items from them. Very excellent service. I know Dick Molenda, the previous CEO, his son Rick Molenda is boss now. The only thing is that they don't have free shipping on big orders.


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## Jim 134

westernbeekeeper said:


> I talked with the Dept of Ag and they said this method of disinfection is "approved" and works well and the state inspector uses it, but now I'm reading riskybizz's post.
> 
> 
> 
> It costs me about $0.90 per frame counting in the bleach and time/labor.




If I can buy new ones for $0.63 per frame why would I bleach old Frames ???


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Keth Comollo

linn said:


> Could you please write the formula for the bleach solution? I was told to use 15% bleach solution. The laundry bleach like Clorax is 10%. I am wondering if the advice was really 15 parts water to one part bleach? Should you dip the frames rather than sponge on the solution?


Store bought Clorox is 6% sodium hypochlorite when it leaves the factory but slowly breaks down over time. If you are buying bleach do it in a store that has a high turnover rate to insure you are getting the most strength possible. I used to buy industrial bleach (12%) by the 55 gallon barrel from a chemical supply house that was very good about keeping fresh product on hand.

A quick test to see if your bleach has any punch is to dip two fingers into it and rub them together. If it feels like it is getting warm then it still has some zing to it.


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## westernbeekeeper

Jim 134 said:


> If I can buy new ones for $0.63 per frame why would I bleach old Frames ???
> 
> 
> BEE HAPPY Jim 134


Where do you get them? Free shipping on large orders?



Keth Comollo said:


> Store bought Clorox is 6% sodium hypochlorite when it leaves the factory but slowly breaks down over time. If you are buying bleach do it in a store that has a high turnover rate to insure you are getting the most strength possible. I used to buy industrial bleach (12%) by the 55 gallon barrel from a chemical supply house that was very good about keeping fresh product on hand.
> 
> A quick test to see if your bleach has any punch is to dip two fingers into it and rub them together. If it feels like it is getting warm then it still has some zing to it.


This is bleach off the shelf at Walmart. I will check/test the potency as described above. Thanks!


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## deknow

You are getting excellent advice here. Although AFB may be "rare" (as one poster put it), it certainly isn't so rare that you shouldn't consider it. Used gear is like a used car...sometimes it _was_ only driven by an old lady back and forth to church on Sundays....but there is some series of events that made them available to you, and there is simply no way of knowing....for all you know, the previous owner _started_ to clean this stuff up, and the frames with the missing combs are the ones that had visible AFB.

If irradiation is not available (I would contact the local bee club...I know that my father in law was a high school teacher in that area, and the university at Laramie had some kind of reactor for experiments at least), then I would burn them.

I believe the research out of Australia is that foundation made from AFB contaminated wax was safe (not hot enough to kill the spores, but must have physically encapsulated them well enough), and I would expect that paraffin dipping would work as well.....

...but then, as has been said, you still have some used frames (with a lot of your labor into them). 

Free shipping is great if you can get it, but we can get full pallets delivered from 3 hours away for about $50, and $50 spread out over 1-2,000lbs is cheap. Look into humble abodes (which is far from you) or someplace else (closer) that is really manufacturing the stuff...I think we pay .56/frame (unassembled), and can easily fit 100 deep boxes and 1000 frames on a pallet.


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## Jim 134

deknow said:


> You are getting excellent advice here. Although AFB may be "rare" (as one poster put it), it certainly isn't so rare that you shouldn't consider it. Used gear is like a used car...sometimes it _was_ only driven by an old lady back and forth to church on Sundays....but there is some series of events that made them available to you, and there is simply no way of knowing....for all you know, the previous owner _started_ to clean this stuff up, and the frames with the missing combs are the ones that had visible AFB.
> 
> If irradiation is not available (I would contact the local bee club...I know that my father in law was a high school teacher in that area, and the university at Laramie had some kind of reactor for experiments at least), then I would burn them.
> 
> I believe the research out of Australia is that foundation made from AFB contaminated wax was safe (not hot enough to kill the spores, but must have physically encapsulated them well enough), and I would expect that paraffin dipping would work as well.....
> 
> ...but then, as has been said, you still have some used frames (with a lot of your labor into them).
> 
> Free shipping is great if you can get it, but we can get full pallets delivered from 3 hours away for about $50, and $50 spread out over 1-2,000lbs is cheap. Look into humble abodes (which is far from you) or someplace else (closer) that is really manufacturing the stuff...I think we pay .56/frame (unassembled), and can easily fit 100 deep boxes and 1000 frames on a pallet.


deknow.....

I see you got the price for 5,000 .56/frame I post the price for 500 .63/frame



BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## westernbeekeeper

I was just looking into this, and I can get all the frames, budget grade and unassembled ($0.45 each), including shipping, for $795 from Western Bee Supply. That's cheaper that Mann Lake even with their free shipping.


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## Oldtimer

Hmmm... well I can't speak for what passes for budget grade in where you are, but over here, I'd rather pay more and get frames that are not budget grade. .45 does seem rather cheap, there might be a reason for that.


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## westernbeekeeper

Western Bee Supply is ridiculously inexpensive to start with, and I've gotten a few budget frames from them before. I could have promised they were commercial, not budget. I was/am quite pleased.


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## Acebird

westernbeekeeper said:


> This is bleach off the shelf at Walmart.


If I was going to bleach something I would be looking for something like HTH or a shock at a pool supply. Once chlorine is in solution it gasses out pretty quickly.


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## Charlie B

Oldtimer said:


> Hmmm... .45 does seem rather cheap, there might be a reason for that.



Western frames are not too bad, use Titebond III for sure keep them together.


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## BayHighlandBees

would sanding make a difference (used as a step before bleaching)? I would think it would remove the exposed areas that are havens for bateria and perhaps remove a lot of the crannies


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## Jim 134

deknow said:


> You are getting excellent advice here. Although AFB may be "rare" (as one poster put it), it certainly isn't so rare that you shouldn't consider it. Used gear is like a used car...sometimes it _was_ only driven by an old lady back and forth to church on Sundays....but there is some series of events that made them available to you, and there is simply no way of knowing....for all you know, the previous owner _started_ to clean this stuff up, and the frames with the missing combs are the ones that had visible AFB.
> 
> If irradiation is not available (I would contact the local bee club...I know that my father in law was a high school teacher in that area, and the university at Laramie had some kind of reactor for experiments at least), then I would burn them.
> 
> I believe the research out of Australia is that foundation made from AFB contaminated wax was safe (not hot enough to kill the spores, but must have physically encapsulated them well enough), and I would expect that paraffin dipping would work as
> ...but then, as has been said, you still have some used frames (with a lot of your labor into them).
> 
> Free shipping is great if you can get it, but we can get full pallets delivered from 3 hours away for about $50, and $50 spread out over 1-2,000lbs is cheap. Look into humble abodes (which is far from you) or someplace else (closer) that is really manufacturing the stuff...I think we pay .56/frame (unassembled), and can easily fit 100 deep boxes and 1000 frames on a pallet.



Hot wax wont kill AFB it simply ENCAPSULATES it beekeepers in NEW ZELAND have excused this method as unreliable and scorch the boxes is not a 100%



bee happy jIM 134


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## westernbeekeeper

BayHighlandBees said:


> would sanding make a difference (used as a step before bleaching)? I would think it would remove the exposed areas that are havens for bateria and perhaps remove a lot of the crannies


That would probably make it not worth it to me to reuse them. Thanks though!


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## Acebird

BayHighlandBees said:


> would sanding make a difference (used as a step before bleaching)? I would think it would remove the exposed areas that are havens for bateria and perhaps remove a lot of the crannies


I think the cleaning step before bleaching is a real bad idea. This is were the majority of the spores are going to be exposed to the environment.
My line of thinking is the frames should be dunked in bleach or lye untouched, then scrapped clean and then dunked in another tank of bleach or lye. The scrappings should be burned. Sanding would be the worst.

Has anyone ever painted frames to reclaim them?


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## squarepeg

ben, did your dept of ag have an opinion on beltsville's info about heat sterilization?


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## westernbeekeeper

squarepeg said:


> ben, did your dept of ag have an opinion on beltsville's info about heat sterilization?


Not that I know of.


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## westernbeekeeper

:update:

I was able to track all this old equipment back to the original owner. I called him and asked him about the history of this equipment: disease, etc. He said, "Why yes, there was AFB in 3 out of those 90 hives. I treated them and it went away; I'd reuse it all if I were you." But I don't want a big risk, so I will just use the boxes, covers, and bottom boards, but I will pitch/burn the frames. Oh well, better safe than sorry.


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## Charlie B

To bad he didn't mark the AFB hives, what a waist!


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## westernbeekeeper

Charlie B said:


> To bad he didn't mark the AFB hives, what a waste!


Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought the same thing.


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## Acebird

westernbeekeeper said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought the same thing.


It is just a question:
Why do you think that after all you did you have any more exposure to AFB spores then me for instance?


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## westernbeekeeper

Acebird said:


> It is just a question:
> Why do you think that after all you did you have any more exposure to AFB spores then me for instance?


Sorry, Acebird, I'm not understanding your question. Maybe clarify? Thanks!


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## Acebird

It sounds like you are going to pitch all the frames because the guy said there was AFB in 3 out of 90 hives. Maybe I am wrong but it doesn't sound like a big risk.


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## jim lyon

The way I look at it 3 out of a thousand is a lot. The fact that the guy even admitted he had that much would make me a little suspicious.


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## westernbeekeeper

jim lyon said:


> The way I look at it 3 out of a thousand is a lot. The fact that the guy even admitted he had that much would make me a little suspicious.


This was also my line of thought.


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## Acebird

jim lyon said:


> The way I look at it 3 out of a thousand is a lot.


Was it all in one season? Even if it was, westernbeekeeper stripped the frames and bleach them. How many spores are left vs anybodies hive who doesn't have an AFB infection? How many of the said frames would end up in any particular hive. Two, maybe three? It might only be one.


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