# What does Protien Starvation look like?



## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

I realize that most over winter hive loss losses are multifactoral. From reading other posts, I gather that "mites" is the "go-to" answer for losses, especially if honey stores were adequate and the hive was properly ventilated.

If a Hive continued to rear brood into winter (Italians) and depleted pollen stores, could it be lethal? What does Protein starvation look like? 

Hive in Question was treated and monitored for mites in sept/oct and nosema, weighed 130lbs in october, was ventilated with a quilt box and wrapped in tar paper, left with an emergency sugar brick (which they ate) still had 7-8 full frames of brood on last inspection mid to late October on a 90degree day(WAY MORE than my carnis had) However, very little pollen was noticed on that last inspection. Bees starting flying out and dying in snow around Christmas, about 100/day estimate for about 2 weeks. The hive was silent after our first "real" cold spell in January. When I opened the hive, there were no bees left, maybe a cup full dead on the bottom board, 5 frames of spotty brood and some empty brood comb and honey towards the outside. I will upload a photo if you feel it would be of value.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

How'd you treat and what did the 'monitoring' consist of?

I think a picture is always a good thing to see. Were there any partly emerged bees among the brood?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

twgun1 said:


> However, very little pollen was noticed on that last inspection. Bees starting flying out and dying in snow around Christmas, about 100/day estimate for about 2 weeks. The hive was silent after our first "real" cold spell in January. When I opened the hive, there were no bees left, maybe a cup full dead on the bottom board, 5 frames of spotty brood and some empty brood comb and honey towards the outside. I will upload a photo if you feel it would be of value.


when I have had this problem hives looked just like you said, and in a cold winter there would be much diarrhea inside and outside the hive, as the bees had used up their bodies feeding brood.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

The sugar role because I was afraid of killing a queen in alcohol. And I correlated that number with them mite drop on my sticky board. That sug roll was a disaster. What a mess. I got eight mites, below threshold but I'm not sure if I sshook enough. And I correlated that number with them mite drop on my sticky board. That sugar roll was a mess!. I got eight mites, below threshold but I'm not sure if I shook Long enough and measuring live bees in a kitchen cup, ha! That correlated with about 15 natural might drops on my sticky board per day. I treated with Apivar, and my mite drop on my sticky board went to 150 within 24 hours. Within a week, my mite drop was back to 15 per day and down to 2-3 mites or none When I pulled apivar in later October. 

I did not see any dead half emerged bees. it went through several freeze thaw cycles during this crazy weather so I couldn't tell what was under the caps when I scratch some of them off, I definitely didn't see any fully developed bees under those caps.Some of the Dead brood did have little holes in it. I scratched off a few and they kind a looked empty under there??. I will open up a few more and take a photo.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

8 mites in a sugar roll is below threshold? 

I always double what I see in a sugar rolls because they seem to ineffective. 8 is certainly enough to indicate a problem. Unless it was a huge sample of bees. How many bees in the sample?


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

"1 cup of bees"....it was challenging for me, which is why I treated regardless. 10-12/ roll w/ 1 cup of bees was the "threshold" I was following based out of one of the bee supply catalogs.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I missed the cup part earlier, that's a lot of bees for a sample. Can't help with the protein starvation aspect, but was curious what you saw for mites.

This is how I collected mites last year. Seemed to work much better than trying to shake them into a tub and scoop them.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

I have five full frames similar to this. And no trace of dead bees anywhere on the frames. All the open cells looks squeaky clean. I just use a knife to cut off a lot of the Cappings and it looks empty under the Caps. I Only saw one white blob and 2






things that resembled bees otherwise they just appear empty. When I swabbing with a Q-tip I get what looks like a little ear wax on them. I guess I'm not sure what freeze thaw will do to a Developing bee carcass.....but I cut off a lot of wax capping over a couple frames and there just aren't developed bees under those capping. 

No pollen on any of the frames.

Wondering if I can use these frames again, or let them go. I've got five full frames like this and several partial filled and dead.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Hopefully someone with more experience sees this and will comment. I don't like the looks of those cappings though.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

yes, AFB is on my differential list too but more towards the bottom. wish I would have dove into this Hive shortly after it died instead of waiting till warm weather.


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## wvbeeguy (Feb 20, 2011)

depressed capping with holes, I might see if there is anything there the Beltsville lab could use.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

wvbeeguy said:


> depressed capping with holes, I might see if there is anything there the Beltsville lab could use.


This is a great idea. Information for sending a sample is here:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=7472

I wouldn't put bees back in that colony until I got a test back saying there is not AFB in the sample.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If it was AFB wouldn't there be signs of ropie carcasses (sticky goo)? I am not seeing a lot of frass but something was going on there with all that brood in Dec/Jan spread out like that.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

Nothing ropey but it's been over 2 months since the hive died and everything is pretty dehydrated down so I don't know if I'd see roping now. I've sent an email off the lab to see if diagnostics would be definitive in ruling out AFB after 2 months and the freezing/thawing and dehydration of most cell contents...waiting to hear back. 

I regret not inspecting sooner but Christmas and the bitter cold....


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

It should be dried down to scale by this time. Look at the cells and you should be able to see the pupa remains. If you see remains (scale), and it removes easily from the cell, it is not AFB. AFB scale will stick tight to the cell wall and will require breaking the cell wall to be removed. If you see anything that looks like a wood splinter sticking up from the scale, that is the pupa tongue. If you see this it is AFB scale as that is the only disease that causes this.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

when I stick a Matchstick or cotton swab into the cell with the dried down scale, what I get looks and is the consistency of ear wax. so not completely dehydrated, and it comes out easily but I'm sure there's still some in there for it is hard to say what is "easy" . Not seeing any tongues in the scales however two more mature pupa that must of had enough of an exoskeleton not to "melt " down did have tongues straight out.

does anyone know what the hive side quick tests are actually testing for? Spores? Bacterial cell wall components? If it be accurate this late in the game? I'm sure if I place in order to Mann Lake, Id have my test on Monday. In state, they use a local courier that is quick and usually overnight delivery. I just don't know about freshness of sample for any of the testing methods.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Laboratories have microscopes that can look at spores. Nothing you are describing IMO sounds like AFB. Regardless of what anyone thinks it is why not send a sample?


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Send in a sample, but I'm guessing you had either protein starvation or too many mites.

That is a HUGE amount of brood for Minnesota in the winter, might just have been bees with brood raising problems. My "neighbor" who has run bees for almost forty years now will not buy Southern raised queens, they always raise too much brood in dearths. you may want to source some local ones.

European Foul Brood will produce leathery scales that can be removed from the cells fairly easily, and they will collect on the bottom of the hive, but the brood dies before being capped with EFB.

Protein starvation kills off the nurse bees, the cluster shrinks, and the hive freezes to death, they usually don't vanish. Bees infested with mite born viral diseases die off early, first cold weather usually, but enough bees live to haul off most of the dead ones, leaving an empty hive.

You should treat for mites six weeks or so before your first killing frost date -- you need a couple rounds of healthy, non-virus infested bees to overwinter, and that means getting rid of the mites in time for two rounds of brood. Late treatments get rid of the mites, but the damage is already done. I used MAQS this year, and all of my hives made it, so did all of my friend's who used them. Nasty, you have to watch the weather, but highly effective, at least for me.

I watch my hives in the fall to make sure they have plenty of pollen going in, and if they don't I feed supplement. Can't use patties any more, too much risk of SHB infestations, but dry works well. 

Check your hive for pollen stores -- if there is no pollen anywhere, they died from protein starvation on top of anything else that was wrong.

Peter


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

psfred said:


> That is a HUGE amount of brood for Minnesota in the winter,


It sure is ... The hive weighed 130 lbs back in Oct and he still feed it. What would happen if he didn't feed it? Maybe it is not the queens fault. Just maybe the colony would have realized they were in a dearth shut down the queen laying and packed in pollen instead of wasting time and packing in more sugar. My assessment of this hive is it died from intervention. The diseases came later. There are thousands of southern queens being sold and very few hives that look like this one in Minnesota.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

From my experience, when my bees run out of pollen....they stop producing any brood. I've heard folks say that they will remove and consume partially developed larvae to recover some protein. I haven't witnessed this myself.
Your photos look, to me, like a mite driven colony collapse or bees that starved. In either case they left behind a load of brood to decompose. 
If in doubt, I'd send a sample to Beltsville to be sure.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I might add that a lack of pollen didn't kill the adult bees in that hive. They don't need pollen to survive.
Also.... the capped brood was no longer being fed anything. They would have finished pupating without any pollen had the adult bees survived to incubate them.
Look elsewhere for the problem...in my opinion.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

beemandan said:


> I might add that a lack of pollen didn't kill the adult bees in that hive. They don't need pollen to survive.
> Also.... the capped brood was no longer being fed anything. They would have finished pupating without any pollen had the adult bees survived to incubate them.
> Look elsewhere for the problem...in my opinion.


This pretty well sums it up. A lack of pollen in the fall and winter would slow its spring growth and not kill its winter cluster.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

beemandan said:


> I might add that a lack of pollen didn't kill the adult bees in that hive. They don't need pollen to survive.
> Also.... the capped brood was no longer being fed anything. They would have finished pupating without any pollen had the adult bees survived to incubate them.
> Look elsewhere for the problem...in my opinion.





> Pollen foraging by those foragers is stimulated not only by brood pheremones, but also by the inventory of pollen stores, and the amount of jelly in the shared food fed by nurse bees to the foragers. The quality of the jelly is dependent upon the vitellogenin levels of those nurses. Even just a few days of rain results in an almost total loss of pollen stores, forcing the nurse bees to dig into their vitellogenin reserves. When protein levels drop, nurse bees neglect young larvae, and preferentially feed those close to being capped. When protein levels drop lower, nurses cannibalize eggs and middle aged larvae. The protein in this cannibalized brood is recycled back into jelly. Nurses will also perform early capping of larvae—resulting in low body weight bees emerging later.


http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-1/


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Is it possible that a lack of pollen led to the total collapse of an otherwise vigorous colony of bees? Unlikely, in my opinion but maybe possible. On the other hand, I believe there are other, much more likely, possibilities.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

If they were protein starved why would they have so many that got to the capped stage? Wouldn't there be some tipping point? Once they're capped they aren't being fed anything...

Opps there's two pages and I see beemandan said the same thing.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

It looks like EFB. Nothing there looks like AFB*, no roping, no perforated, no greasy caps. Could also be mites. 

Need to send samples in to be 100% sure*. I would send both bees and comb if you have it. Bees will be tested for nosema and mite counts, comb will be tested for EFB, AFB, and many other brood diseases. Even R Oliver was surprised by a few cases of AFB and EFB after he got his result from the lab.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=7472

Where did you get your bees,a package? Lots of packages got EFB and died last summer. 

An EFB hive could deplete all it pollen trying to raise brood. It can also cause a hive to be stagnant even during a flow.

Do you have any pictures of your brood from last summer or fall? 

I would seal the hive not use anything from that hive until you get the results back. Should be around 10 days. Check your other hives for spotty brood, EFB loves company.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I think PMS or nosema c are the most likely candidates (based just on the photos). Those bees trying to emerge likely both weren't fully provisioned before capping, and a lack of house bees to feed them as they are emerging.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Nothing there looks like AFB*, no roping, no perforated, no greasy caps. Could also be mites.


I'm certainly not saying that it's AFB, statistically I'm sure it isn't. But we don't really have a good feel for roping since we aren't there. And there ARE perforated, sunken cappings.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

It is hard to tell much once the bees die and the brood/bees begin to decompose. It'll be a stinky, goopy mess....regardless of the cause.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jwcarlson said:


> I'm certainly not saying that it's AFB, statistically I'm sure it isn't. But we don't really have a good feel for roping since we aren't there. And there ARE perforated, sunken cappings.


I like this post JWC I really like it.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

AFB. bad news. This was the only hive in my home yard, so kids could watch the bees on a regular basis. My others are about a mile away; hey overwintered great and are brooding up nice after inspections yesterday. Not sure what to do with those two. They were packages but mentor gave me a few frames of old brood comb to get them started last year... rest is new 2015 drawn comb. Sam at the bee lab thought I'd be Ok if there is not active disease (to make new spores) in those hives that were never sick sicne they were a mile away. I will pull out the few older frames in those hives that were from the original source and have them tested as well. I do not plan to treat with terramycin. IF they have AFB, they'll get sick and then we'll know. totally sucks. I suppose there is no point in putting them in new equipment until I know their status???


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

thanks for posting back, you might want to check and see if your state does radiation treatment of the dead hive equipment.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

jwcarlson said:


> I'm certainly not saying that it's AFB, statistically I'm sure it isn't. But we don't really have a good feel for roping since we aren't there. And there ARE perforated, sunken cappings.


I've seen afb with other diseases, but only really when the afb was partially supresed with antibiotocs. If afb were at work here, you would not see the starved emerging dead bees. You will find sunken and perforated cappings almost any time there is dead brood.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

AFB was confirmed by Beltville Bee LAb. I did do the hive side test but that read positive also but I didn't; completely trust it because the control line was so week too. Moral of the story is, don't use used equipment or comb, even from well intentioned individuals. I never imagined I'd end up with this in my hives....not even on my radar. So thankful to whoever suggested I send comb to Beltville.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

deknow said:


> I've seen afb with other diseases, but only really when the afb was partially supresed with antibiotocs. If afb were at work here, you would not see the starved emerging dead bees. You will find sunken and perforated cappings almost any time there is dead brood.





twgun1 said:


> AFB was confirmed by Beltville Bee LAb. I did do the hive side test but that read positive also but I didn't; completely trust it because the control line was so week too. Moral of the story is, don't use used equipment or comb, even from well intentioned individuals. I never imagined I'd end up with this in my hives....not even on my radar. So thankful to whoever suggested I send comb to Beltville.


Hmm...

twgun1, sorry to hear that  Hopefully if the origin of the equipment still keeps bees you notify them so they can take the needed actions as required.


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