# November COLD



## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

We use sheltered bee yards. We have a few that are real good but they are getting harder to find all the time. A lot of farmers seem to hate trees.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

There's no money to be made in old vacant farm sites and trees,I think the Manitoba gov't had a program where farmers could turn the property over to the gov't for wildlife habitat and not pay any taxes, not sure if this is still in effect,by the rate hey turn old farm sites into crop land farmers are not interested in saving wildlife either. Well sheltered yards are hard to find , especialy with a sun side exposure.Had to put up a round bale fence in one location to cut off that nortwest wind.Bees ancestry goes back 30 million years, they survived the ice ages in Europe.
"Survival of the fitest " also applies to wintering bees outside in western Canada


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

They gotta be fit that is for sure. No feral bees around these parts for a good reason. 

I use to wrap my hives with fibreglass insulation and tar paper. It wrapped tight and I felt it eliminated those deadly drafts. I'd tuck it into the entrances also to help lessen the up draft through the upper entrance. 

I'll never go back to outdoor wintering though, so much easier moving hives in and like you guys say, good yards are getting harder to find. Controlled climate all the way!


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## fordtractornut (Jul 4, 2010)

Ian,
I am very interested in your wintering process. Do you have any videos of the building set-up? Maybe some pictures of you moving them into the building? Along with some information of the type of building and the heating and or cooling system?

I have seen your video on youtube that shows a lot of hives stacked up with red lights run through out the building. but what I would like to know is are the hives in single deeps? and if they are in single deeps, how heavy are the individual hives before you put them inside?

thanks again,

John C


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

John, open up my farm webpage, find the bees, Scroll through Oct and Nov 2013. All my current stuff is in there. 

Ask away


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Ian said:


> -20 degrees C out right now snowing with a 50km/hr wind making the wind chill around the -30's . Friggen cold out there right now. Makes to feel like a long winter is ahead of us prairie folks. At least I can rest easy knowing my bees are tucked away inside away from this wind!
> How the outdoor beekeepers get their hives through cold winds like this amazes me. Hardy hardy bees...


Yes Sir, cold here too! My bees have been in CA since mid-October and I even managed to get all my equipment indoors before the first snow fell. Just luck but it caught up with me today. We've been butchering deer but we took yesterday off to do some chores in town. Bad mistake--the last deer was frozen solid as a rock when we brought him in tonight. Hopefully, he'll thaw enough tonight to finish the butchering job tomorrow--glad I skinned the bugger before he froze! Hope the winter/spring treats everyone better than last year


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

You need a ban saw, then you will freeze them every time


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Ian said:


> You need a ban saw, then you will freeze them every time


Yep, we've done that and it works well for cutting steaks but trimming the fat isn't much fun (frozen or not!!). I like fat on my beef but venison fat is pretty wicked stuff! It's forecast to warm here tomorrow so may get out and do some fun stuff.


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## Jonathan Hofer (Aug 10, 2005)

Ian said:


> No feral bees around these parts for a good reason.


We've been watching a bee tree on our yard for a few years now. The bees inside the hive have made it through two winters, and the traffic looked good all year. It raises a questions on a few long-held theories in Manitoba:
- no successful overwintering outside on canola honey
- no success for treatment free hives

How are the bees able to survive without any intervention? 

Yes, they did make it through the winter. They were flying in the spring long before it was swarming season. And no, it was not robbing activity. There's a real hive inside the tree that has successfully made it through two Manitoba winters. 

Interesting....


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I have a barn in a neighbours yard with a wild nest. Dies almost every winter and restocks with swarms through the spring and summer. 
I often think where all these swarms end up that leave my hives throughout the season. I see virtually no honeybee activity aside the boxes I keep them in.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Most swarms here settle in building double walls or soffits as the hollow cottonwoods are too wide open to attract a swarm. In towns where there are old big deciduous trees one finds a very few bee trees. But the honey flow is over in August or early September and no dandelions and fruit til mid april. That is a long time for a feral colony to make it on its own. Feral bee population is effectively nil east of the Rockies in Montana. May be different on the banana belt on the far side.


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## Jonathan Hofer (Aug 10, 2005)

Ian, the tree we've got is not restocked every year. I make a point to check in spring time. They start flying regularly before our hives start, and seem to be carrying pollen sooner, and in greater quantities just judging by the bee activity at the entrance. 

I'm curious how they overwinter with all the canola honey they must be collecting every year that granulates.


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

I am of the opinion that condensation in the hive may help make canola honey more usable for hives that are wintered outside.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I'm not sure what I'd do in -4F degree weather... I suppose first I'd buy better clothes... 22F degrees outside at moment, I thought it was cold... Was in the 50-60s yesterday. (crazy weather)

I'd love to see more pictures of how people winter their hives in doors. I've been fascinated by that when I've seen the dedicated bee houses/trailers in Siberia.. (I think) One of them had extractor/bee brush setup on the trailer. You just dipped the frame into a revolving set of feather brushes and the bees were knocked off. Seemed neat..

I've often wonder if I could build up faster by having the bees in a protected environment. My real concern would be their cleansing flights...


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

In the sixties and seventies, I knew several commercial beeks who tried to winter indoors with what they thought were adequate ventilators in case it warmed up. The ones I knew all had a miserable experience because of January or February thaws. When it warmed up to near fifty outside and the bees had been locked in since November, it warmed up in the well insulated structures and the bees started crawling. 

I am assuming that the successful Canadians do not have to deal with higher temperatures, have AC available (which my friends did not set up) or just have a better understanding of how to accomplish indoor wintering. 

How on earth did the old timers do it in cellars with what had to be miserable ventilation and they must have had to deal with winter thaws too! 

All I know is that if I was to try to winter indoors, I would have a super insulated building with massive ventilators and Air conditioning unit.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> I'd love to see more pictures of how people winter their hives in doors. 

Follow the link in _Ian'_s signature in post #11. _Ian _has lots of _indoor wintering_ photos and comments in his blog. As I recall, Ian's bee building has temperature controlled fans, but not heat or air conditioning.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I was snooping on his website and it looks interesting.... 

Ian, how many hives do you have stuffed in that building at it's fullest capacity? I guess the theory is that it's so cold, that they stay clustered up and don't wander around? 

It looks like they are all single deeps... How long do they stay in hibernation and what is your loss percentage from starve out before spring the spring?

Thanks, 
-Kevin


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Some of the key is colder ambient temps.

Run a cold room for storing vegetables based on -

If it is really cold during the day, do the bulk of air exchange during the day so as to not cool interior excessively. If day time ambient is on the warm side exchange air during the night when ambient temp is lowest and pull interior temp down. Just a timer that needs some period setting and a thermostat to control the fans.

Good insulation.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Thanks Mr. Golden, I guess in todays world one could manage all that remotely if you had good weather forecasts. But without trusting the weather guesses to be available, I would hate to be very far from the farm. Not quite as bad as being a sheepherder I guess. Just an example of there being no free money.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

KevinR said:


> Ian, how many hives do you have stuffed in that building at it's fullest capacity? .... that they stay clustered up and don't wander around?



I have about 900 hives in there now, and built my room to hold about 2000.
I keep the room at 5 degrees C to winter them in complete darkness and fresh air. When it warms, the bees will leave the boxes so we pump cooler air ( always cold here during winter) to cool the room. The bees create a lot of heat so heating is not the issue during our frigid winters. 
I put them in November 5th and they will be taken out end of March


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

We usually don't have many days of flight cleansing weather throughout the 5 months of confinement. Indoor wintering works very well for this area. In areas where winter breaks quite often, and temps soar, indoor wintering would be a challenge. 
Just think of Manitoba as being a big chunk of snow, wind and ice for bout 4 to 5 months if the year. That sheet of ice in the arctic slides down for 5 months !


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Thanks for that elaboration. I think you saved some poor soul in the warm states like South Dakota and Iowa from losing their butt. That being said, apparently overwinter storage of potatoes and bees must be similar enough that a lot of bees are now wintering in old potato storage buildings in some pretty warm states like western Washington and southern Idaho. When I wintered bees right south of the Manitoba Saskatchewan border in the seventies, I wintered mine under snow drifts downwind of tree rows.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

If they can put them in and pull them out in Jan to warmer coast line weather, I'd call that ideal


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

That is what they do and off to build for the almonds.


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Ian, I looked at your website-- you're documentation is terrific! Noticed double deeps in the field but singles in the wintering room. Do you winter both or do you collapse the doubles to singles? Got a kick out of the fawn. I see one curled up beside my gives every other year or so. I accidentally stepped over one the other year. I guess his mom told him not to move, no matter what!!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The little guy did not move the entire time they worked the yard! Talk about a great place to keep your baby safe


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Chip Euliss said:


> Noticed double deeps in the field but singles in the wintering room. Do you winter both or do you collapse


We just converted everything to singles this past year. I ran a hybrid with single and double for quite a few years as I slowly stubbornly changed over to single management . 
I double the brood nest up in June for a few weeks during peak brood production, and shake the queen back down before I start harvest.


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Ian said:


> We just converted everything to singles this past year. I ran a hybrid with single and double for quite a few years as I slowly stubbornly changed over to single management .
> I double the brood nest up in June for a few weeks during peak brood production, and shake the queen back down before I start harvest.


Thanks for clarifying. Good idea to get the population up at the right time--maybe something for me to consider. I did the same thing--a hundred or so doubles and the rest singles but shifted to all singles this year. I found I have to feed them more but it's a small price to pay in my situation. I bought a 300 gallon milk tank with an agitator and paddle wheel a few years ago so I can mix sugar and not deal with the corn syrup rodeo. I just mix up what I need when I need it. I hit them hard with light syrup in the spring to draw new comb and heavy in the fall for storage; use citric to split the sugars to save the bees a little time and energy. My climate here is about like yours and I'm strongly considering developing a smaller scale version where I would over winter those in excess of the semi-load I send to a fellow beekeeper in California each winter, maybe a hundred or so.

Yes, those fawns do stick tight. I almost stepped on one and was absolutely amazed that it didn't move. It is a safe place for animals to hide. Have a friend in Texas who has horses and a migratory beekeeper has hives in his pasture. When he wants to ride and the horses don't, he tells me they just walk over to the hives because they know he won't come that close to them--pretty smart!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

This single hive management is quite the trick. I'll put a super over that 8 frame brood nest and she will lay the entire box within a couple of weeks! 
Soon as the honey starts flowing, enough to start storing , we will shake the queen down and toss in the excluder. As the brood hatches, the hive will back fill that super and we time the first pull shortly after. 
Chip, do you still have canola there or has it all been switched to soybean?


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Ian said:


> This single hive management is quite the trick. I'll put a super over that 8 frame brood nest and she will lay the entire box within a couple of weeks!
> Soon as the honey starts flowing, enough to start storing , we will shake the queen down and toss in the excluder. As the brood hatches, the hive will back fill that super and we time the first pull shortly after.
> Chip, do you still have canola there or has it all been switched to soybean?


Sounds like a pretty slick trick; I'll have to try a few next year! Canola here has mostly been replaced with soybeans and corn. Not even the small grain crops we used to be known for. I've moved my out yards to target clover and alfalfa. There is more canola between you and I but in North Dakota but still not like even 5 years ago. I'm always amazed at all the canola I see when I hunt in SK each fall but it's in the short grass prairie and I never see bees--must be too dry for a dependable crop. It would be that country SW of Saskatoon about 60 miles or so.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Thanks for sharing the photos and info, find it very interesting.

I don't see any top entrances in your photos. Is this a correct observation?

Would suspect some swarming issues with the single brood box and queen excluder during honey flow????? I understand that you will have a large volume of nurse bees in the second super and used to working above the excluder. I'm thinking the single brood during the flow will get filled with nectar??????? 

And are skunks somewhat of an issue with bottom entrances???


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I don't run top entrances anymore, as I don't winter outdoors anymore and with the migratory covers, the upper entrance was eliminated. I run the hives on pallets, which are elevated by a few inches which detour skunks to a point.  We still have skunk issues but not enough to worry about.

Swarming problems have more to do with queen issues than anything else, assuming the hive has had space to grow out in and swarm prevention measures were taken care if earlier in the season. Like I mentioned earlier in the tread, the second is used for the brood nest expansion and then switched into honey storage as the flow begins. The single provides more than enough space for the queen mid to late season. We still will encounter swarming but who doesn't. Our honey yields averages of 150 -200 lbs per hive


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