# My Warre-type hives



## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Hello Neighbor.

I've only got one Warre, I mainly use Langstroths. Beekeeping is regional so I thought I'd offer my input since I'm just a little ways south of you. It looks like you are using Langstroth boxes but managing them Warre style. If you haven't yet, then download Bee Keeping for All from Abbe Warre (you can find free PDFs) and read it.

I started using quilts four years ago on some of my Langstroth hives. I have not yet lost a Langstroth hive over winter that had a quilt box on it. In the fall I put a thin canvas over the frames on the top box and the bees will usually propolize it. I figure that gives them a chance to regulate the air flow through the quilt. Since you're using an upper entrance that may not be practical for you. I wouldn't close up the bottom entrance completely, leave a bee size opening. There are others on the forum who use quilt boxes on Langstroths so you could try posting in the main forum for more advice.

Treating for mites in my true Warre was a challenge due to equipment compatibility, My Warre has a standard Warre bottom board and there is no way the oxalic acid vaporizer was going to fit in there. I had to shim it up for vaporizing, but that of course means lifting the entire stack, which gets old for multiple treatments with geezer back. 

I also use Apivar strips after I get the supers off, however I've been hesitant to just put Apivar in the Warre because of the crush and strain harvesting, maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I understand your concerns in that regard. You could try an OA drip or MAQS. I don't worry about it on my Langstroths because its confined to just the brood boxes and I extract my Langstroth supers.

I'm a little concerned about nadir stacking all the empty boxes. It still looks like your entrance is at the bottom, so the bees are having to climb a lot. Also in the winter time they will have a lot of extra space to heat. My recommendation here is to find a different place to keep the empty boxes. I have a bottom board that I stack everything on with a cover on top. It keeps the insides dry and maybe a swarm will move in some day.


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## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

JConnolly said:


> Hello Neighbor.
> 
> I've only got one Warre, I mainly use Langstroths. Beekeeping is regional so I thought I'd offer my input since I'm just a little ways south of you. It looks like you are using Langstroth boxes but managing them Warre style. If you haven't yet, then download Bee Keeping for All from Abbe Warre (you can find free PDFs) and read it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the comments. I have two shims on top and the bottom of the top shim is where the screen is. This creates space below that and the next box down for the upper entrances and also a place to feed them dry sugar. As I said, my only hive that survived was in that config (it also was the only one that was foundationless). Good confirmation for me on your experience with the quilt boxes. It is very easy to check for mites now since the shim on the bottom board has a 3/4" cutout above the normal 3/8' opening. I can slide stuff in and out real easy. I did my first might check yesterday with the sticky board and the short hive only had 2 mites but the large had 15. Also did the sugar roll test on saturday and the short one had 3-mites but the large had 15. Both tests indicate that the taller hive needs treatment. I think I'm going to gamble and just do the powdered sugar treatment. I bought a removable piece of plastic board I will cut to fit the full bottom board and I should be able to easily remove the sugar that drops on it. If I get a little tilt to it, I could even take a hose and wash it out if I'm careful. My bees have propolized the edges of the upper screens but not in the middle. I plan on only using the upper entrances in the winter so they won't have far to go and I won't have to worry about mice or snow. I think the bees only heat up the area right around them and above so I don't think putting boxes below them should be a problem (I hope). I think I'm going to still leave them there based on that reasoning. Thanks again for your comments. I may try some not so strong essential oils also for the mites.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

JConnolly said:


> ... It looks like you are using Langstroth boxes but managing them Warre style.


Just wanted to comment that - if we take away the copious details of Warre's method, stand back and analyse it's foundations - then what remains is the basic principle of a small footprint 'chimney-style' beehive. Although I adopted Roger Delon's alternative methodology (fully sealed and heavily insulated top with bottom entrance) during the short time I ran Warre hives - a methodology I continue to use with all my vertical hives - it became very clear to me that bees really do thrive within such a tall and narrow beehive format.

It can be no coincidence then, that on another thread this morning someone is proposing that a '5 over 5 over 5' format may be preferable for the over-wintering of a developed nucleus colony, than the alternative '8 over 8'. It would appear then, that there is a growing recognition that the narrow chimney-style format, whilst perhaps not being the greatest for honey production (?), does indeed provide optimal conditions for the winter survival of smaller colonies.
LJ


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I only know of one side by side trial, and I don't draw that conclusion from it's resluts 

_In the winter of 2015/2016, I compared multiple equipment styles. I overwintered 86 colonies in
five different styles of equipment: Full size hives (n=8), single 10-Frame deep boxes (n=15),
double side-by side deep boxes (n=12), four frame towers (n=38), and Styrofoam 5-frame nuc
boxes (n=11). The nucs were started within a few weeks of each other from the end of July
through the beginning of August, with most made the first week of August. They were made with 5
frames of bees, 2-3 brood frames and had queen cells from the same mother queen.
All of the equipment for the study was purchased from Betterbee.
- Double deeps: Based of the system championed by Michael Palmer, these had 2
colonies in the same volume of a double deep hive. The bottom deep was divided,
each with a 4-frame nuc above it (purchased from BetterBee)
- Full hives were colonies that I got ready for winter in standard fashion.
- 4 Frame towers were similar in dimension as the double deeps, but were stacked
according to need – 2 deeps or a deep and a medium or 3 mediums
- Single deeps- the 5 frame nuc was put into 10-frame equipment, with the edges filled
with foundation or drawn comb. A spacer with an upper entrance was added under
the inner cover.
- Styrofoam nucs – Insulated 5-frame nuc boxes (purchased from BetterBee).
In year 1, I had better survival in my nucs than my full size hives with their old queens. The
greatest survival was in the single deep hives (87%), followed closely by the Styrofoam nucs
(82%). The double deeps, 4-frame towers, and full sized hives had similar rates (67%, 68%, and
63%, respectively._
Milbrath 2017
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...510002000326/Milbrath_SustainableFallNucs.pdf


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

little_john said:


> ...it became very clear to me that bees really do thrive within such a tall and narrow beehive format.


I think so too. Although I've only operated my Warre for two seasons, in both summers the hive populations have just boomed. The Warre bees have also been the best behaved bees, including this summer, when it is housing a swarm that includes a queen that was one of my more temperamental hives last summer. The narrow chimney just seems to make them happier. Almost like maybe that is how they evolved :scratch:.

The equipment compatibility is a big issue however. I've transitioned from 10 frame to 8 frame Langstroths primarily because I'm not 17 anymore and the boxes are a lot heavier than they were back then. Four seasons ago I started mixing in 8 frame gear and I haven't yet lost an 8 frame hive over winter.



> Although I adopted Roger Delon's alternative methodology (fully sealed and heavily insulated top with bottom entrance) during the short time I ran Warre hives - a methodology I continue to use with all my vertical hives


I think this is a very interesting comment. I've been toying with the idea of making a winter cover board that has a sheet of clear perspex in it with fondant space below and then putting a 2" foam insert inside over the perspex, with the telescoping cover on top. Its an idea I got from a Finnish Honey Paw hive. The idea being that one can lift the telescoping cover, peek under the insulation, and see what is happening inside the hive without actually breaking the seal. A fully sealed hive is not something I've ever tried as I have condensation concerns that I've posted about before.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>it became very clear to me that bees really do thrive within such a tall and narrow beehive format.

They also thrive in wide squat style hives, like these 12 Frame brood chambers with 11 1/4" deep frames.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I think they do best in 8 frame deeps for brood and medium supers:thumbsup:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> .....It would appear then, that there is a growing recognition that the narrow chimney-style format, whilst perhaps not being the greatest for honey production (?), does indeed provide optimal conditions for the winter survival of smaller colonies.
> LJ


From my experience, here is a very optimal hive for maintaining small colony (including wintering) - 40-50 liter; 6-7 Ukrainian frames.
Multi-purpose, portable, single-body hive without many hassles of the Warre.
Single-bode make transporting a non-issue. 
Yes, this is a "tall" hive, not wide-type and yet works with the standard US frames.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

odfrank said:


> >it became very clear to me that bees really do thrive within such a tall and narrow beehive format.
> 
> They also thrive in wide squat style hives, like these 12 Frame brood chambers with 11 1/4" deep frames.


The context of my post was that of a suitable hive configuration for the overwintering of the smaller nucleus colony, rather than for the larger colony where variations of the Dadant hive work extremely well. I have several 16-frame boxes housing 12" deep combs in which large colonies flourish, but I wouldn't dream of ever over-wintering a nucleus colony in such a large volume hive without dummying-down significantly beforehand - at which point it would cease to be the same large-volume hive, of course !

I think that Michael Palmer's continued use of paired vertical chimney-style stacks - as someone who relies in part on the winter survival of nucleus colonies for an income - speaks volumes.

I wouldn't consider housing a really large colony in a Warre-format beehive precisely because of the stack height required to achieve an appropriate volume - unless one favours annual swarming to be desirable (which I personally don't). I have seen pictures of Warre hives so tall that they required guy-ropes to support them, but that certainly isn't my idea of working.

One other piece of 'evidence' to support my claim that bees have a preference for the narrow chimney-style beehive - is that when conducting his bait-hive volume experiment, Tom Seeley discovered that - when given the choice - the bees actually preferred a real-life chimney to any of the bait-hives on offer. Sure, that was one single occurrence, but failing to follow-up on that event was a scientific opportunity missed, imo.
LJ


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