# Equipment cost?



## GOHoney (Jun 19, 2013)

I just ordered all the components for one hive form Brushy Mountain a couple of weeks ago. It looks like I have a good chance at getting the rest of my bees through winter so I started pricing everything for six more hives today to house new packages. Their prices have gone up a lot. I'm shopping around, has anyone done business with Miller Bee for wooden ware? Ordering the exact same parts with them I can save $100.00.

Thanks :s


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

GOHoney said:


> I just ordered all the components for one hive form Brushy Mountain a couple of weeks ago. It looks like I have a good chance at getting the rest of my bees through winter so I started pricing everything for six more hives today to house new packages. Their prices have gone up a lot. I'm shopping around, has anyone done business with Miller Bee for wooden ware? Ordering the exact same parts with them I can save $100.00.
> 
> Thanks :s


 Try Humble Abode beekeeping supplies and save more. Not affiliated. OMTCW


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## GOHoney (Jun 19, 2013)

Thanks Cedar, one more question. This is my third year keeping bees. I have did most of my business with Dadant and Brushy Mountain. If I buy parts from different vendors will the fit each other?


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

GOHoney said:


> Thanks Cedar, one more question. This is my third year keeping bees. I have did most of my business with Dadant and Brushy Mountain. If I buy parts from different vendors will the fit each other?


 It will happen regardless. There was an article in Bee Culture some time ago, no longer there, about the differences (sometimes notable) that exist in the woodenware of all the various makers. Have purchased from Humble Abodes and just as you, was concerned, once they were all nailed, they fit my other equipment very well. No problems. But in general, slight differences in measurements are somewhat unavoidable. OMTCW


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## Scpossum (May 4, 2014)

Does Humble Abode ship at reasonable rate? Checked it out and they don't show the shipping until after you have ordered. Just wondering...


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

GOHoney said:


> Thanks Cedar, one more question. This is my third year keeping bees. I have did most of my business with Dadant and Brushy Mountain. If I buy parts from different vendors will the fit each other?


There may be a little beespace variation btw the fram3es above and below if you use different maufacturers' equip.. but it is of little practical difference.. at most, you'll get a little bridge comb btw the bottom of one frame and the top of another.

If you leave it there, it won't hurt anything.
If you scrape it off, the bees will replace it.

It's not a problem.

I get my woodenware at good prices from 

http://beelinewoodenware.com/


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Scpossum said:


> Does Humble Abode ship at reasonable rate? Checked it out and they don't show the shipping until after you have ordered. Just wondering...


I don't mean to sound harsh, but how can anyone give you accurate information to your question when it is location specific? Simply go through the order process till you get to the shipping costs, then if you don't like it, cancel. If you can't do that, give them a call.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Will these places quote shipping before ordering? I have been ordering mostly through Mann Lake. Quality is good, but if shipping is reasonable from Humble Abode or Beeline it would be significantly cheaper


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## FollowtheHoney (Mar 31, 2014)

I ordered from Humble Abodes and they called me to give me a shipping quote. It was not cheap but significantly lower if delivered by freight and not UPS or FedEx .


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Any vendor that won't tel me my cost for shipping before I commit to an order is not qualified to to do business with me.

I expect competent, informed customer service.

That said, I live near the Rochester, WA Beeline store and have experience with their shipping, as I pick my equipment up.


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## FollowtheHoney (Mar 31, 2014)

Barry said:


> I don't mean to sound harsh, but how can anyone give you accurate information to your question when it is location specific? Simply go through the order process till you get to the shipping costs, then if you don't like it, cancel. If you can't do that, give them a call.


Actually they don't let you determine a shipping cost when you place your order online like many vendors. You have to call them or submit the order and they call you.

They will not ship or bill you until they talk to you.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I have recently placed the same order with 7 different suppliers all over the country. Some I knew the shipping up front, some I didn't. I didn't care as it was part of the whole experience of gathering information. There wasn't a one that stood out from the rest as being so much higher or lower in shipping. Sure, if you're going to place a huge order, shipping could be significantly spread across the spectrum. To me, that cost is only one part of the whole, and quality of product is going to have more weight with me.


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## GOHoney (Jun 19, 2013)

Back to my original question, has anyone done business with Miller Bee. For the order I need to place I can save almost two hundred dollars compared to Brushy Mountain.

Thanks a lot.


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

I'm in Mass. They are in Maine. My order arrived the next day and it was reasonable in my opinion. They will quote shipping when you order or before you order by phone. OMTCW


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

GOHoney said:


> For the order I need to place I can save almost two hundred dollars compared to Brushy Mountain.


That's not hard to do. BM appears to be on the high side of suppliers. Not sure how you can say what you're going to save until you get a cost on shipping. Do your homework.


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## GOHoney (Jun 19, 2013)

I plan on placing the order with both and then see what shipping comes out to.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Barry said:


> I have recently placed the same order with 7 different suppliers all over the country. Some I knew the shipping up front, some I didn't. I didn't care as it was part of the whole experience of gathering information. There wasn't a one that stood out from the rest as being so much higher or lower in shipping. Sure, if you're going to place a huge order, shipping could be significantly spread across the spectrum. To me, that cost is only one part of the whole, and quality of product is going to have more weight with me.


What were your conclusions?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Still writing the article. I've got frames all over the basement!

Here's an example of costs for GOHoney.
Brushy Mountain unassembled deep frames: http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/9-1_8-Frame-Wedge-Top_Divided-Bottom-each/productinfo/127/
Betterbee unassembled deep frames: http://www.betterbee.com/frames/dwf10.asp

Brushy Mountain: $2 per frame
Betterbee: $1.18 per frame

. . . and BM is just reselling Mann Lake frames.


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## GOHoney (Jun 19, 2013)

Berry,

Miller Bee if you buy 100 plus .79 per frame. .95 per frame under 100.


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## Scpossum (May 4, 2014)

I ordered four hives, foundation, and frames from them last spring. They shipped fast and it was a good experience. I still think shipping is too high. But, I don't think their shipping is any less than anyone else. I do like the fact that their shipping is quoted before I place the order. If you are ordering just frames, I think I researched it and found Kelley is cheaper with shipping. Woodenware and foundation is cheaper, I think from Miller. I did the comparison a few months ago, so things may have changed.

Kelley is .83 shipped per frame if you order $150 or more. That is based on 200 frames. That is a shipped price. That is a pretty good price.

Miller bees is $1.09 per frame shipped based on 200.


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## GOHoney (Jun 19, 2013)

Actually Dadant is cheaper for foundation. But most of the wood was cheapest at Miller. I put an Excel spread sheet together with all of the major equipment houses on it. I entered all of their product codes and prices. All I have to do is enter quantity of what I want and it shows me the lowest price.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

GOHoney said:


> Berry,
> 
> Miller Bee if you buy 100 plus .79 per frame. .95 per frame under 100.


Do you know what kind of frame you're getting? Not all are alike. Every supplier charges less per frame if you order more than a few.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

GOHoney said:


> All I have to do is enter quantity of what I want and it shows me the lowest price.


The only entry you're missing is quality! inch:


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## GOHoney (Jun 19, 2013)

I will check out Kelley. That is one I have not really looked at.


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## Scpossum (May 4, 2014)

Barry said:


> The only entry you're missing is quality! inch:


You make a good point considering one of my hives welded the frames together inside the hive. Thought it was superglue they had used when I was prying them apart. Glad I had glued and stapled them when I put them together


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## GOHoney (Jun 19, 2013)

Barry,

I was talking grade #1.


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## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

I've used Miller bee. They were quick and reasonable on price. Here's the rub if you order enough 
$$ many times shipping is free. Also certain times of year is free shipping. Now if you think about it, shipping costs at those business is added to the equipment and you are paying shipping costs twice. So think ahead and save. Look for price breaks. Now 100 deeps may be too many, but get with other seekers and order together


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Dave1958 said:


> I've used Miller bee. They were quick and reasonable on price. Here's the rub if you order enough
> $$ many times shipping is free. Also certain times of year is free shipping. Now if you think about it, shipping costs at those business is added to the equipment and you are paying shipping costs twice. So think ahead and save. Look for price breaks. Now 100 deeps may be too many, but get with other seekers and order together


I'm looking to place a small order, Miller's shipping price increased my total by 71.5%. Still checking around at Humble and Beeline to see what they'll be. Equipment cost can't be beat, but when you start talking about shipping it just doesn't make sense.

The same equipment shipped from Mann Lake is $165 vs. $210 from Miller.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I wanted to add something that might help: 

In searching for the best prices on woodenware over the last month I have discovered that mixing and matching equipment between manufacturers isn't always a good idea- especially if you don't know before hand that some manufacturers make slightly different sized components. Thankfully, I discovered this prior to ordering anything simply by reading older posts in the forum. 

Some will tell you that Mann Lake has free shipping for orders over $100- not a bad deal if you order everything from them, but I can't attest to the quality as I have never ordered there. I'll be ordering soon though- most of my woodenware will come from Shastina Bee Girls. They have complete hives that look good and are reasonably priced, but again, I'll have to reserve judgment until I can get an order in.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Cyan said:


> I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I wanted to add something that might help:
> 
> In searching for the best prices on woodenware over the last month I have discovered that mixing and matching equipment between manufacturers isn't always a good idea- especially if you don't know before hand that some manufacturers make slightly different sized components. Thankfully, I discovered this prior to ordering anything simply by reading older posts in the forum.
> 
> Some will tell you that Mann Lake has free shipping for orders over $100- not a bad deal if you order everything from them, but I can't attest to the quality as I have never ordered there. I'll be ordering soon though- most of my woodenware will come from Shastina Bee Girls. They have complete hives that look good and are reasonably priced, but again, I'll have to reserve judgment until I can get an order in.


ML does have free shipping over $100. Those shipping costs are obviously baked into the prices, but even then, their prices are pretty reasonable for the hobby guy like myself who is buying 5-10 boxes and 100 frames at a time with some bottom boards and covers thrown in as well. Like I said in an earlier post... Miller's shipping was $87 for a $120 order vs ML shipping $0 for a $165 order.

I have both select and budget grade from Mann Lake. And commerical grade stuff from Kelley. There is a difference between ML select and budget with Kelley's commercial boxes being somewhere in between. The fingers joints are solid, but the inside parts of the joint may be "damaged" in the sense that the wood may be somewhat frayed. What I'm trying to figure out is why in the world someone would pay 50% more (or so) to get "select" grade stuff. There isn't anything that much better in those boxes based solely on "will they hold bees?"... Budget/commercial boxes still had tight fitting joints and when glued and nailed, they aren't any different as far as I can tell. It's not like they have warped or cracked boards. One of the last batch of deeps I put together had a loose knot in the handhold. I just glued it in so the knot doesn't fall out. The bees will take care of more securely fastening it in. I have had frames from both Kelley and ML, ML frames are "smoother" with Kelley's having a less sanded finish. Which doesn't bother me at all, just an observation. Kelley's end bars seemed thicker to me, but that could have been incorrect as I never measured them. I will say that I never damaged a ML frame while gluing/stapling. I broke a good number of Kelley ones just trying to get the top bars into the end bars. They even included a couple extra end bars... maybe that's a normal problem?


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

Thought I made a reply here, but it failed? In any event; yes, Kelly makes frames with different thicknesses, but it depends on the style. The sizes are 3/8" & 1/2" I believe. I had actually intended on buying my frames from Kelly as I need both the SGX & F styles.

As far as commercial or select grade: as long as the knots are tight I don't care. But, if I can get select wood at the cost of commercial or cheaper, then why not? 

The only thing I've seen so far that really irks me is in having to take a utility knife to cut off any splintering off of the end grain and sanding. This is caused by worn out saw blades and the saw operator pushing as much wood as quickly as possible through the saw= poor technique & craftsmanship in my opinion. You would think for as much as we pay for woodenware, we should be able to assemble it right out of the box, but from what I've seen so far, I won't and can't.

Some people do choose to assemble wood parts right out of the box usually because of time constraints and they may be fine with this. But to get the best glue joint, you are always better off taking the time to remove any splintering and to scuff the joints down with sandpaper. It simply makes for a better/stronger joint and unfortunately, that means wasting some of my own time to do something that I should not have to do.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I've bought stuff from Miller and have always been happy with their equipment. Very fast shipping I've often wondered how they got it here so fast.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

There's a lot of decent places to order from- no doubt. I have no reason to badmouth any company, as all my woodenware was left behind by the previous owner (free). But what I'm trying to convey is this: where I'm personally trying to find matching components, I am also not seeing a complete line of parts. This is between 15-20 different suppliers. Some places have poorly constructed covers; some don't have screened bottom boards with trays, while others might not have top feeders, pollen traps, or perhaps their boxes are 13 3/4: wide while I need a 14" wide box to match another companies screened bottom. (moving to 8 frame equipment btw)

Now, I have noticed a slight difference in equipment being used between southern beeks & northern beeks though- climate differences and differences in what people prefer to use. I guess what is good for one beek may not be good for another, and in this, one supplier might be perfect for one but not for another. 

If you can find everything that you need from one supplier and the shipping & prices are acceptable- God Bless. I however have to order from at least 3 different suppliers to get what I want, but that's not so much a bad thing because I've already done my homework on it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Got a shipping quote back from Humble. $48 for $120 of product vs. ML $166 with "free" shipping. Humble also said that they may have to leave one item out to make it fit in one box otherwise the shipping would be higher.

I searched around quite a bit when I made my first couple of orders and I keep coming back to ML. Even the free shipping stuff gets here two or three days after they send it (because I am not terribly far away and we have a great local carrier called SpeeDee).

Waiting for shipping price back from Beeline. The difference there is that it looks like everything is unassembled (even telecovers and bottom boards). So the savings would have to be pretty substantial to justify that much more assembly (frames and boxes vs frames, boxes, covers, and bottoms).

I'm not ragging on any company or anything... just reporting what I'm hearing back from them because a few people asked in the thread. Of course distance and order size matters. 

All of my posts are regarding three bottom boards, three telecovers, and five medium supers. I have enough other frames and boxes that I *think* I'm comfortable going into spring with. Was planning on making some bottom boards and covers myself, but if I'm going to make some Coates nucs... bottom boards and covers probably aren't in the cards before "go time".


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## spl500 (Feb 9, 2015)

I just received my brushy mountain catalog and it states free shipping on almost all items if you purchase over $150. they also seem to be offering a 10% discount if you visit one of their two locations to pick up merchandise instead of having it shipped. All companies that offer free shipping, the shipping is not free. it is built into the cost of the product. Nothing is free. Would like to save the 10% so I will visit


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks for the info! You both (jwcarlson & spl500) have me re-thinking what I had planned. 

I thought that there was a fairly good chance that I wouldn't be driving anywhere to pick up supplies, as I travel in my line of work. Driving gets old, but I didn't actually realize how close the one Brushy Mountain store is to me (a few hours) and that Betterbee is only located several more hours away from there. Tomorrow I'll go back over my lists and see what I can do at BM. If there are still things that I'd like to get from Betterbee, I could possibly luck out and make a side trip from one of our job sites instead of paying for shipping. For what shipping is between multiple places & orders, I could buy a lot more supplies or bees with that money. Thanks again.

p.s. don't mind the palm print on my face, it's mine. lol


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

I took the time to re-calculate my supply orders. I won't go into great detail, but I was surprised at what I found.

The orders at Shastina & Betterbee came to a total of 288.24 (excluding tax). This does not include about 60 lbs worth of shipping from Oregon to western Pennsylvania, and about 40 lbs from eastern New York to western Pennsylvania.

Now if I combine my orders at Brushy Mountain with the 10% off for picking it up and the +5 woodenware discount, my total comes to 286.79 (excluding tax). Driving there and back won't cost more than $30-$40, several hours of my time, and I'll have what I want same day.


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## perihalailah (Feb 9, 2015)

We got our hives from Brushy Mountain last year, thank goodness, and are planning to just start making our own components from here on out. Just guess-timating from what we've checked on about the wood, but it looks like it will be about a quarter of the cost of the kits. We still have plenty of the wood glue, wood preservative, paint, etc leftover and we already had a great table saw and router that we picked up from a estate sale.


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## Hiwire (Oct 19, 2014)

After reading some of the posts here I checked more options. I like Millers prices BUT the shipping raises their prices well above ML. BM is close enough that I COULD drive, as is ML. I suppose if I needed to get out of the house bad enough, I could justify driving to BM to save 10%. The $100 I save would probably pay for gas but I would STILL be paying more than just ordering from ML and having it shipped to my door. Shipping is the killer in this equation and it looks like ML has if figured out how to supply a good product at such a low price that even shipping keeps them below just about everyone else. Of course that changes if you live very close to Miller but doesnt help at BM.
Ray


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> I'm looking to place a small order, Miller's shipping price increased my total by 71.5%. Still checking around at Humble and Beeline to see what they'll be. Equipment cost can't be beat, but when you start talking about shipping it just doesn't make sense.
> 
> The same equipment shipped from Mann Lake is $165 vs. $210 from Miller.





jwcarlson said:


> ML does have free shipping over $100. Those shipping costs are obviously baked into the prices, but even then, their prices are pretty reasonable for the hobby guy like myself who is buying 5-10 boxes and 100 frames at a time with some bottom boards and covers thrown in as well. Like I said in an earlier post... Miller's shipping was $87 for a $120 order vs ML shipping $0 for a $165 order.
> 
> I have both select and budget grade from Mann Lake. And commerical grade stuff from Kelley. There is a difference between ML select and budget with Kelley's commercial boxes being somewhere in between. The fingers joints are solid, but the inside parts of the joint may be "damaged" in the sense that the wood may be somewhat frayed. What I'm trying to figure out is why in the world someone would pay 50% more (or so) to get "select" grade stuff. There isn't anything that much better in those boxes based solely on "will they hold bees?"... Budget/commercial boxes still had tight fitting joints and when glued and nailed, they aren't any different as far as I can tell. It's not like they have warped or cracked boards. One of the last batch of deeps I put together had a loose knot in the handhold. I just glued it in so the knot doesn't fall out. The bees will take care of more securely fastening it in. I have had frames from both Kelley and ML, ML frames are "smoother" with Kelley's having a less sanded finish. Which doesn't bother me at all, just an observation. Kelley's end bars seemed thicker to me, but that could have been incorrect as I never measured them. I will say that I never damaged a ML frame while gluing/stapling. I broke a good number of Kelley ones just trying to get the top bars into the end bars. They even included a couple extra end bars... maybe that's a normal problem?





jwcarlson said:


> Got a shipping quote back from Humble. $48 for $120 of product vs. ML $166 with "free" shipping. Humble also said that they may have to leave one item out to make it fit in one box otherwise the shipping would be higher.
> 
> I searched around quite a bit when I made my first couple of orders and I keep coming back to ML. Even the free shipping stuff gets here two or three days after they send it (because I am not terribly far away and we have a great local carrier called SpeeDee).
> 
> ...


As a follow up to the rest of my posts here. Beeline just got back to me with $29 shipping for my order. Which would make the total $131 @ Beeline vs. $166 @ ML. The difference being that I'll have some light assembly of bottom boards and maybe some tops. For a $35 difference I think that makes sense. Will probably be giving them my business this time around. But also thinking about buying some patties as well so that will maybe destroy the savings compared to ML. Decisions Decisions.

Edit: When adding 40# of patties total from ML becomes $212 shipped. Beeline order with 40# of patties shipped is $220.
If I wasn't ordering patties I would go with Beeline. Shipping prices don't really shock me because I have a rough idea what it costs to ship something these days. But looking through the history of what things cost and shipping prices the prices are pretty shocking. 
The plus side is that this thread has been helpful in showing me some suppliers that I didn't know were out there. I'm sorry if I kind of hijacked/over posted. But maybe my ramblings will help someone else out?


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## GOHoney (Jun 19, 2013)

That is one of the reason I like BM wood. I tried a couple of others and BM's wood is usually well cut. After reading all of the comments here I may need to re think. I was not aware BM was offering free shipping. They are not the quickest shippers but I get it usually within three or four days. 

A lot of great opinions, Thanks a lot guy's. 



Cyan said:


> Thought I made a reply here, but it failed? In any event; yes, Kelly makes frames with different thicknesses, but it depends on the style. The sizes are 3/8" & 1/2" I believe. I had actually intended on buying my frames from Kelly as I need both the SGX & F styles.
> 
> As far as commercial or select grade: as long as the knots are tight I don't care. But, if I can get select wood at the cost of commercial or cheaper, then why not?
> 
> ...


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

If you are not buying a huge number you can save more money by building your own stuff. I bought enough wood today from Menards to build 3 deeps and 3 mediums. Total price came to $49.00. I priced the same through ML and it came to $96.00. That was lowest quality ML has.This past Saturday I built 3 deeps and 3 mediums. I cut all the lengths, then put on a dado blade and cut all the hand holds then cut all the dado cuts. Assembled them and had them painted all in one day. Everything done with a cheap table saw from Lowes. 1 six foot 1x8 was 4.90 which will make one medium. The 1x12 to make a deep was 8.49. To me well worth the time I spend making them. Plus it's a good stress reliever.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>has anyone done business with Miller Bee for wooden ware?

I have 150 of their bottom boards and more than 500 of their eight frame medium boxes and probably 20 or so eight frame deeps. They are a pleasure to do business with and their product is great quality. They actually used to make the equipment for Brushy Mt before Brushy Mt started making their own.

I usually buy them by the pallet...


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## GOHoney (Jun 19, 2013)

I have access to all the wood working equipment needed to do the job. Just never done it. I would be afraid of ending up with oddballs.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

My woodworking skills are limited but they are really simple. I cut all the lengths and widths. Then all the dados were the same ( the end joints and the "ledge" for the frames) 3/4 wide and 3/8 deep. I set that up and buzzed them all through. Your location is the key. I am about 40 miles from Indianapolis. My town Menards is litteraly 1/2 the price as Menards in Indy. If you live in a big city it might be worth it to check some nearby towns.


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