# Ethics of selling honey as your own



## crofter

My labels say "Natural Wildflower Honey from the Bees of xxxxxxx and xxxxxx xxxxxxxxx" my, and wifes' name and contact info. When people ask me if I made the honey myself, my answer is no, my bees made it!


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## Brandy

Yep, I've been faced with this every year and if nothing else it makes you up "your" game. They don't suffer losses or do the amount of work it takes. What's ironic is I will say to a customer "I'm the only vendor that sells my own honey here!" and then they come back and show me honey they just bought from the other vendor which is honey from MT, ND, SD and I hit myself in the noggin' like don't you get what I just told you!!!!! They sell it just under your price to get the sale which adds further insult..

I'm with you, it's frustrating, and it's up to the Farmers Market manager, just how much of the products can be brought in, outside of what the vendor produces. Just get your own marketing plan, observation hive, pictures of hives, yada, yada, yada, make it the best product the buyer will ever see, taste, imagine etc.....Once you get the customer onto your honey, there will be no going back for them if it's quality. But the easy sales being the only honey vendor are long gone, at least in my area. Good luck!!


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## cg3

That would get you booted out of our Farmer's Market.


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## clyderoad

Talk about opening up a can of worms!
Lots of the honey sold here is not produced by the sellers. Many of these sellers put their label on the jar with no mention of the actual producer or origin of the honey or that they are merely the packer. I think at the very least it is misleading. For me, the "they don't ask, I don't tell" explanation is not good enough.
Just recently I had this conversation with another beek here who is actually a producer of the the honey he sells, just like me.
We agreed that this sales practice is not only very questionable but even hurts our retail business. They dump bought honey on the market under the guise of seller produced local honey and charge seller produced local honey prices. This situation would not exist if the label clearly stated the producer, origin and packer. Then you get the blenders. They blend outside honey with their own honey to meet their market needs, and somehow justify to themselves that it's all their honey. I have even heard some of these guys say they bought it so it is their honey!
By the way, outside honey or local honey blended with outside honey retails for what you see in your local supermarkets. What, $5.50/lb. or so? Not the higher price that Locally Produced Honey can command.

Consumers assume that honey for sale at a farm stand, farmers market, health food stores, etc., with a persons label that reads something like-- 
Jim and Jane's Apiary
Smalltown XX, 12345
999-999-9999

is actually from a beehive in Smalltown. Many of these consumers think they are talking to the producer of the honey as they are buying their products from the farm stand, farmers market or what have you. They like to know where their food is coming from and who grows or produces it, and are willing to pay a premium for this. They shouldn't assume so much, and are mislead as we know. Imagine the perspective buyers reaction during that nice homey sales conversation when they are told the honey is from 350 miles away and that the seller only bottles it and puts his/her label on it. BUT the pumpkins and brussel sprouts they sell are grown on their farm locally! Yup, misleading.

I tell those who are interested the backround story of locally produced honey. Sometimes it comes up in a conversation about how my honey is so much lighter in color compared to the 'other guys' honey- the stuff he gets from 'somewhere else'. I just don't do it in a confrontational way, more like educational. But I don't hide the truth. I put 'local honey' labels on mine, none of the re-sellers do that. They seem to be satisfied with their results as it is.
I quickly claim to be the producer of the honey I sell and not a honey re-seller or honey marketing company. I know what my honey has been subjected to (treatments?), how it's been processed (heated to 165f? and finely filtered?), and when it was harvested. And I freely share this information.
Yup, a can of worms!

Thanks for starting the thread.


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## reidflys

When ever I see honey for sell, I ask who the beekeeper is, and most people say it is them.
Then I say well I am a beekeeper as well, and then typically the marketer will be at a loss and
say something to the tune of -well it's really my son and he's not here.

The truth is that there are alot of people selling honey as beekeepers and not that many beekeepers


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## gmcharlie

WE sell a lot, we even buy flavors from other sources that we know well. We advertise it as "local" or orange blossom, or whatever. but telling people its ours when we bought it would be wrong, and unnecessary. its east to tell them its where its from, and there is no value in lieing about its source


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## kbfarms

I only sell my own honey, our farmer's market would also boot a person out selling other folks honey. My reputation is worth much more than a couple of thousand dollars of selling other folks honey. 



reidflys said:


> When ever I see honey for sell, I ask who the beekeeper is, and most people say it is them.
> Then I say well I am a beekeeper as well, and then typically the marketer will be at a loss and
> say something to the tune of -well it's really my son and he's not here.
> 
> The truth is that there are alot of people selling honey as beekeepers and not that many beekeepers


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## greg zechman

just wait until ...beeman dan...sees this thread...he will have alot to say about this subject....lol
its my view that its not right to sell someone elses honey ,unless its clearly marked...most people dont know where the varietal honeys come from
they dont know that sourwood comes from nga to to ncarolina or that orange blossom comes from florida or california....beekeepers need to be honest..its my experience though that 
the customer is getting smarter about honey.


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## clyderoad

gm--


> there is no value in lieing about its source


Not so. There is substantial monetary value gained by not disclosing the source and producer of honey clearly on the label. That is why it's done on such a wide scale. Even by big business, as we have recently witnessed.
Without labeling that clearly states producer, origin and packer the consumer is purchasing the item without the necessary information needed to make an informed purchase. And the labels that don't offer this information are clearly misleading. People are paying alot of money for knockoff local honey. The value is in being able to sell cheaper honey for higher prices.
It's occurred to me that maybe honey without this pertinent information is mislabeled. 
It's my feeling that a 'paper trail' regulation is in the foreseeable future, much like the 'supplement/herbal' market has incurred.


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## beemandan

greg zechman said:


> just wait until ...beeman dan...sees this thread...he will have alot to say about this subject....lol


No doubt, it gets my goat Greg. 



clyderoad said:


> There is substantial monetary value gained by not disclosing the source and producer of honey clearly on the label.


In a nearby metro area a particular supplier sells at a number of ‘producer only’ markets. In each of these upscale, busy markets I’m sure they sell at least $500 - $1000/week. Five plus markets….you run the numbers. The fellow manning a booth for them at one of the markets said he had 250 hives. This seller has varietals that he/she couldn’t possibly produce. It is just so impossible that I cannot put into words the obvious fraud…but it is only obvious to a beekeeper. While they sign agreements to only sell their own products, the market management has no way to tell. The system operates on trust. Where there’s money to be made unscrupulous people will always take advantage of trust. 
In my case I’m not directly affected by them. I don’t have absolute proof…just personal certainty. And so I’ve left it alone. If, on the other hand, I were a sideliner hoping to get into one of those markets I’d surely challenge them. And one day someone will.

To the op. I believe if you simply sell your product…tell the customers about what you do and how it is done….those who are paying attention will see the difference in you and your product. It won’t take long for them to recognize you as the real deal.


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## rmdial

What a response. I thought I would get all sorts of nasty replies to mind my own business. It is interesting how people treat this as a right to project an image that is not accurate.

I did the math in very general terms as per price and figured a 55 gallon drum locally sells for about $2.20 lb which equals $1,452.00. Selling quart jars for $12.00 each will return $2,640.00

You can buy a bee suit, work a few hives and only sell the honey you purchased in the barrel and make a very nice profit.

My faith in beekeepers has taken a traumatic hit.

Thanks for all the input.


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## Brandy

Try a qt. jar @ $20 and you will soon wonder why you do any bee work at all, and just go pick up the 5 gal. buckets. No fuss, no muss, and no losses to boot!!! In my area some of the Farmers Markets rely on volunteers so there's no way they're going to go check things out. I've mentioned to come on out and take a look at my place, thinking they'd also go check out the other. No takers yet!


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## clyderoad

rmdial--


> It is interesting how people treat this as a right to project an image that is not accurate.





> My faith in beekeepers has taken a traumatic hit.


I hope you mean 'some people and 'some beekeepers'.

This issue is a big one here ($$), being so close to the NY metro area. Marketing firms & re-sellers doing a Walmart style attack on local beeks business, and all under the radar of the unsuspecting honey buying consumer. Education of the honey buying public is the only tool available to us, from my prospective. 

It's the way things are most everywhere you look, in this case beeking and honey. Can't give up or give in, or things will never be better.


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## beemandan

rmdial said:


> My faith in beekeepers has taken a traumatic hit.


The beekeepers who've responded, in most instances have stated that it is unethical to sell someone else's honey and claim it is their own. I'd say your faith in beekeepers should be restored. 
The folks who'll sell others' honey as their own but keep a few hives as a pretext don't qualify, in my opinion, as beekeepers. The term shyster comes to my mind.


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## gmcharlie

Interesting.. thought... when we tell people its from GA or WI (cranberry) it doesn't effect them a blip.... yes some want Local honey for allergies, but for us we price it the same if its orange from Fla to Clover from OH... taste sells them for us, so why lie? I haven't had any customers say, "well if there not your hives"...... I suppose lying to get into the producers only may help, but if its good pure honey the customers seem right on board, even when its from somewhere or someone else.


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## clyderoad

gm-- I realize you tell the buyers, but how do you label this honey?


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## SS1

The real issue I would have is that people also buy LOCAL honey because they believe it helps them build resistance to local allergies. I do NOT know if this is fact, but in this context alone those people are being cheated. My town is small enough that all it would take is a few words to a few people and those sellers would quickly decide they didnt want to be a part of our farmers market anymore.. An advantage to living in a small rural town. I dont mind someone else selling their bee products, even cheaper than i sell mine. I still sell out eventually. I do however live by a moral standard, as do "most" who live nearby.. the city and big business mentality is slowly creeping in, but theres enough good ol boys left that were keeping it at bay.


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## gmcharlie

Its got a flavor label on the top. or printed on the label. Our labels are very simple, no claims on them just pure raw honey and the flavor. It does say lazy Bee Ranch.... 
Interesting thought. I have 2 girls that handle my sales... they are paid commissions..... so I guess technically its not even there ranch.....


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## beemandan

It depends on the nature of your market, I suppose.
In the producer markets the customers expect to buy from the actual producer. The idea, I believe, is to be able to look the farmer in the eye and know the actual source of the food they are buying. For a growing number of people, this is important. And, while there is opportunity for dishonesty, it is difficult for a fake produce farmer to get by. The other farmers will figure him out pretty quickly.
Beekeepers are a bit different. In the producer markets around here they only allow one. So there aren’t any contemporaries to weed through the bs.
I am proud to be a member of the Athens Farmers Market (Athens, GA). All you need to do is talk to anyone selling there and you will appreciate their passion for what they do. There isn’t a laggard amongst them. There are some young farmers, often husband and wife teams, all full of energy and conviction. Some middle aged, post hippie sorts, again with the fervor of certainty that what they’re doing matters. And then there are us real oldtimers….moving a bit slower than the youngsters but still convinced that we are doing something important. And anywhere from a thousand to a couple of thousand customers coming through the gate each Saturday, willing to pay a premium to be assured that they are taking wholesome food back to their families. So, when I run across a shyster, taking advantage of a market….it pains me more than I can say….


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## greg zechman

Well said dan ......... Greg


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## clyderoad

gm-- so I'm on the same page: 
Are you claiming it's clear, by your label, that when your honey is purchased by a consumer, say at the Natural Foods Store, they understand that the Lazy B Honey in their jar is from Il., or that the Lazy B Honey in their jar is from OH and packaged by Lazy B Honey, or it contains a blend of honey from Il. and Oh. and is packaged by Lazy B Honey Ranch?
How do you know if the honey you sell as pure, raw honey is so if you buy it from others?

I fully understand the flavor label.

Sales girls are responsible for proper representation of the product also.


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## beemandan

greg zechman said:


> Well said dan ......... Greg


Thanks Greg....you've been to the Athens Farmers Market.....am I exaggerating?


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## clyderoad

beemandan


> It depends on the nature of your market, I suppose.


I don't believe for a minute the nature of the market makes a difference in properly and fully representing a product. Be it honey, a child's playpen, a roofing shingle, or a vitamin.

Full disclosure on the label and in sales literature.


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## sqkcrk

rmdial said:


> If I am going to compete with these beeks, should I mention this to buyers?
> 
> Your thoughts please.


I assume by "buyers" that you mean the customers of the people you are talking about. You won't make any friends doing that. And probably not very many customers.

Sell your own honey and keep your own standards.

I have bought honey and sold it under my own label. I helped make that honey. I harvested it and extracted it. But it didn't come from my hives. Was that unethical? You tell me.

I recently found out that in NY State if you pack honey produced by another beekeeper you need to do so in a licensed facility. Is that true in your State?

What do the Market Regulations say? Or maybe no one in charge wants to enforce the regs?

One thing I found out buying honey to resell, I didn't recoop my investment.


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## sqkcrk

clyderoad,
Set your price high and make sure you have a banner on your stall which says loudly and proudly, "We Sell Only Our Own Honey".


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## beemandan

clyderoad said:


> beemandan
> I don't believe for a minute the nature of the market makes a difference in properly and fully representing a product.


I think you missed my point. In a producer only market everything you sell is supposed to be produced by you. PERIOD. Even if properly labeled, honey produced by anyone else is taboo.


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## clyderoad

sqkcrk--From my perspective if honey has to be purchased, either up front or for payment later, it is a product produced by someone else. Purchasing this honey makes one a packer of a commodity/product produced elsewhere. This should be disclosed.

One can only sell something for the price the market will bear. Setting a high price is not going to help sell it. Something is worth only what a buyer will pay for it. From a business point of view sitting on a large inventory of unsold goods that are mistakenly valued above current marketplace prices is a disaster in the making.

My thoughts are that if one honey from a particular location had the reputation of being the 'best' honey money could buy all those selling that particular honey would be fast to disclose that fact and charge a premium for it. Others from outside that area would have to be content with trying to advance the perception of that quality or charge less- until the market forces changed. 

In the grocery stores and especially the big box warehouses honey is clearly labeled, ie: Honey is from Argentina, Brazil, USA and Canada. And priced accordingly = less than specialty honey, local honey, raw honey. No games, full disclosure.
Why is that?


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## clyderoad

beemandan


> I think you missed my point


Maybe so. i understand your point now.


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## sqkcrk

clyderoad said:


> sqkcrk--From my perspective ...
> 
> One can only sell something for the price the market will bear. Setting a high price is not going to help sell it. Something is worth only what a buyer will pay for it. From a business point of view sitting on a large inventory of unsold goods that are mistakenly valued above current marketplace prices is a disaster in the making.


If your honey is priced higher than others consumers will believe it is better. If you don't sell your honey for as much as you possibly can you are losing money. Until you set your price so high that people turn it down you will never know how much you could have sold it for.

Look into Marketing. Excuse me if I am telling you things you already know. I don't know what you know or how much you depend on honey sales to feed your family. But if you wish to make money selling honey you have to make your product appear distinct, attractive and appealing. 

Are you selling your honey to the Walmart crowd or the Neimann-Marcus crowd?


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## clyderoad

sqkcrk---The Hamptons crowd and the real food crowd. Two distinct and highly desirable customer bases.
I get a premium for my product and market it as a premium product.
I sell it for as much as the market will bear. It is a business.

Full disclosure on all honey labels will enable us to sell more honey, at higher prices to more people. Especially to those people who have been duped by marketers, re-sellers, and packers preying on a unsuspecting and naive customer.


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## sqkcrk

Then sell your honey Brother and make what you can. You will never know what the market will bear until it doesn't bear the price you set.


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## Daniel Y

I can sell my honey at $6 a lb at the pace I need to with almost no effort other than casual conversations. I can sell it at $15 a lb with more expense (about $3) and effort per lb. Profit ends up about $9.00 per lb when it is all taken into consideration.

Producing honey and selling honey are two completely different things to me.


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## Rader Sidetrack

clyderoad said:


> In the grocery stores and especially the big box warehouses honey is clearly labeled, ie: Honey is from Argentina, Brazil, USA and Canada. And priced accordingly = less than specialty honey, local honey, raw honey. No games, full disclosure.
> Why is that?


Honey in large retail stores certainly _*appears *_to be clearly labeled. But *huge *quantities of honey are are disguised as to actual origin, then illegally imported into the US and sold. Here is one notorious case:

http://www.businessweek.com/article...the-largest-food-fraud-in-u-dot-s-dot-history
Once the honey is in the US, it is packed, mislabeled and sold to buyers who may not realize that they are being deceived as to the actual origin of the honey.


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## sqkcrk

I try to control the things I can control and leave others to themselves.


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## gmcharlie

Interesting thought.. I think i will change my label a bit to say origin of that flavor also, At the moment its not printed on the label.... Hadn't looked at it that way, as for the condition of the honey and how its treated, I but it DIRECTLY only from guys I know and look in the eye. Its also easy to tell good raw honey in bulk( I only buy drums) its got stuff in it!... But like I said, the guys I buy from are guys i would leave the kids with...


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## deknow

What we found rather conclusively, was (at least in our area), the beekeepers that were buying in honey from the larger migratory folks (in bulk for resale as their own) was 15-30% beet sugar (Polarmetrics test), where the honey off the shelf from the same migratory folks tested pure (with the same test).

The beekeeper buying in honey to sell as their own generally is not testing for sugar (or other) adulteration..whereas the large chain stores might be.....clearly, at least around here, the migratory folk know the difference, and know which one to give to the beekeeper who will look their own customer in the eye and tell them that this is the best, most pure honey in the world.

deknow


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## jim lyon

It's interesting to note that honey prices and demand have increased significantly during a time period when the US economy was very poor, perhaps it's because people are making meals at home more, perhaps it's driven more by perceived health benefits in any case, I find that fact should tell us something. 
I have long been a curious observer of the psychology of the grocery store honey buyer. While there is clearly a segment driven primarily by low price, I am convinced that a high percentage of honey purchases are impulse buys driven by factors such as container attractiveness particularly if it has a local angle, and some brief background information. These are probably the same shoppers who pay more for designer dog food. 
My advice to smaller packers competing on the local store shelves? Be audacious, make people curious as to why your product is priced higher. They have already decided to make a luxury purchase, probably one not even on their grocery list, when they paused at the honey display. Reward them with something special.


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## Daniel Y

ABJ has an article in it on how to promote your honey (Or how to sell your honey for $15 a lb) Uniqueness in the way of making it different with flavors or better yet promoting that it is local is one way. packaging is another. The funny thing is I read it 2 days after having sold my first bottles of honey for $15 a lb. It does work. I am selling these before I can actually get them ready to go out the door.


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## sqkcrk

There isn't enough honey to satisfy the demand. Doesn't Supply and Demand call for higher prices?

How much honey does the original poster have to sell? How much does he sell it for now? It would be interesting to see what would happen were he to double his price. How much honey would he have a year from now? If he only sold half as much he would make as much profit and those w/ less expensive honey would follow suit and raise their prices too. Someone has to lead the market.

Something w/ a higher price tag is perceived as a better product only because one thinks it's so. Is it unethical to take advantage of human nature? Is it economically unethical not to?


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## Rader Sidetrack

sqkcrk said:


> Something w/ a higher price tag is perceived as a better product only because one thinks it's so. Is it unethical to take advantage of human nature? Is it economically unethical not to?


If you are _selling _honey, the answers come very easily. 

If you are _buying _gasoline, perhaps after a major storm, and the price at the pump is now $8 a gallon, somehow the ethics seem to be very different.


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## cg3

Rader Sidetrack said:


> somehow the ethics seem to be very different.


Not if it's all-natural, organic gasoline and the buyer can just go to Walmart and get the regular stuff for $3.


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## Rader Sidetrack

> Not if it's all-natural, organic gasoline and the buyer can just go to Walmart and get the regular stuff for $3.

So do the _ethics _of the discussion *change *when Walmart runs out of their $3 gas, and the only gas available is _all-natural, organic _gasoline at $8 a gallon? :scratch:





Are _all-natural, organic _ honey sellers ethically obligated to reduce their price when Walmart runs out of the cheap honey? :scratch:

:digging:


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## cg3

If Walmart runs out, the price is going way up.


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## Rader Sidetrack

:ws:


:lpf::lookout: :kn:

.... .... Mark ? .... ...


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## sqkcrk

What, Rader?


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## cg3

Do I need to point out that my single source craft refinery all-natural gasoline is also vegan?


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## Daniel Y

Although supply and demand is a very real thing it is not as simple as most people understand it.

What do you consider a higher price? Lets look at a competing product. Since Honey is a sweetener. it is a direct competitor with sugar. sugar selling at 40 something since a lb. honey at wholesale is $2.00. Btu I do not sell honey to wholesalers. I sell it direct fro $6.00 a lb minimum. A 1200% increase in price and no problem getting it sold. In the past couple of days I have started selling it at $15.00 a lb or a 3000% increase. That is also a 450% increase over the wholesale price of honey itself.

So how is supply and demand really taking effect n all this.

I can sell all the honey I can produce as soon as I produce it at wholesale. Demand is huge but then so is the supply. it is where everyone unloads their honey. it is is simple and quick making supply easy to do.

Btu $6.00 a lb honey requires a lot more time effort and expense. Due to this alone the price must go up. I add a $0.75 bottle to every lb of my honey alone. I then have to take the time to fill those bottle transport them to the customer make them available to the customer promote my product so the customer is even aware of it. and often have some sales conversation even if ti is a short one. Yes the price goes up but every cent of it was earned. I did what it took to put that honey in my customers hand the way they chose to buy it.

Again the $15.00 a lb honey is taking the same service to the next level. I have to work harder. Accept more expenses and reach further to inform my customer. In fact it cost me $205 to package up 48 lbs of honey. That is just cost of packaging. I also worked to land the market where people do not bat an eye at $15.00. So nobody is just handing it to me. I am working for it and I have every expectation of being paid for my work.

So supply and demand has a lot more to do with the cost of supplying than people are desperate to get it. I provide a quality product that is worth every cent I charge for it. for those that do not want it. they have Walmart and the fake crap. Again worth every cent they pay for it. Well maybe.


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## sqkcrk

Only if it makes it sell better.

One tenent of marketing is knowing your customer. Who are we selling our honey to? How do we connect w/ them in the best way. If I am selling honey to folks from The Hamptons I would put a lot of thought and hard work into presentation, how my honey looks and is displayed. The kind of jar and the label. Pairing honey w/ other food items and other ways of using honey. Facial scrubs come to mind. 

Know your customer and let them get to know you. You are not simply selling honey, you are selling yourself, your connection w/ Nature through your bees, etc.

Sell your honey.


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## sqkcrk

Daniel, I disagree. Honey is a sweetener, but it is more like Maple Syrup than it is like Sugar. Or it should be. We beekeepers should market it more like Maple Syrup than like Sugar. Promote the qualities of your honey. The distinct flavor. How it should best be used to enjoy the distinct qualities of your honey.


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## Brandy

All I can say is enjoy you $15 lb. honey profits while you can. There is a beekeeper near you, coming soon to your area that will or already has purchased honey at $2.20 a lb. in either 5 gal. buckets or 55 gal. drums. Packs it locally and calls it local honey with a very nice label. If your at $15 lb. he'll go $14. If you're at $12 he'll go $10. If you sell comb honey, he'll cut the price in half. Just be ready to up your game to compete! It's happening now! They also call it marketing.


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## Beregondo

Daniel, honey is sweet.

But it may be direct competition to sugar, but sugar is certainly no competition for honey.
Ever hear of someone looking forward to a peanut butter and sugar sandwich? 
And sugar topping ice cream is a completely different experience to topping it with honey.

I don't know anyone who eats sugar to improve their health, though I get a premium for the honey I sell to health foodies.
I've never heard of burn or wound dressings pre-impregnated with sugar, either though honey has been used as an antiseptic, antifungal healing ointment for centuries.

I could go on, but I think the point is made.

The demand for honey is not the demand for sugar, nor is the demand for sugar the demand for honey.
There is a limited overlap in their usefulness.

The demand for sugar, and its supply has little effect on the demand for honey while present transportation infrastructure permits cheap importation and shipping.

Getting a premium price for honey has a lot more to do with marketing than with supply and demand.


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## Rader Sidetrack

> Ever hear of someone looking forward to a peanut butter and sugar sandwich? 

When I was a kid, I looked forward to my mother's freshly baked bread coming out of the oven. A slice of that, add some (dairy) butter, and sprinkle _sugar _on top!  Mmmm good ...

Other than that, I agree with _Beregondo's_ comments. :lookout:


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## clyderoad

sqkck==


> Only if it makes it sell better.
> 
> One tenent of marketing is knowing your customer. Who are we selling our honey to? How do we connect w/ them in the best way. If I am selling honey to folks from The Hamptons I would put a lot of thought and hard work into presentation, how my honey looks and is displayed. The kind of jar and the label. Pairing honey w/ other food items and other ways of using honey. Facial scrubs come to mind.
> 
> Know your customer and let them get to know you. You are not simply selling honey, you are selling yourself, your connection w/ Nature through your bees, etc.


A necessary piece of knowledge for making sales is to know your customer, good point.
Other marketing principles include representation and positioning the product.

'let them get to know you' ?
If someone is selling honey that was purchased from another producer, possibly from another area, and re bottled this honey into their own jars and slapped their label on it, leading the purchaser to believe it is what the label says it is, at what point does one 'let them get to know you' and one tells them the truth? The truth being that although the label portrays the honey in the jars as from xyz apiary in Anytown XX, it is actually honey that was purchased in Sometown XY from abc apiary and re-packaged. And that the seller in order to be able to make honey sales, doesn't think this is important enough to disclose.

It's being suggested that 'let them know' only what you want to in order to sell the product. 
Marketing does not have to be misleading or untruthful.

What part of yourself are you selling? 

For example - A 3 hive beekeeper that sells 5000+ lbs of honey retail has more connections with honey producers than with nature.

Brandy has hit the nail on the head above:


> There is a beekeeper near you, coming soon to your area that will or already has purchased honey at $2.20 a lb. in either 5 gal. buckets or 55 gal. drums. Packs it locally and calls it local honey with a very nice label. If your at $15 lb. he'll go $14. If you're at $12 he'll go $10. If you sell comb honey, he'll cut the price in half. Just be ready to up your game to compete! It's happening now! They also call it marketing.


Here anyway, these are large, well capitalized companys. Formidable competition. 



Full disclosure and truth in labeling is the only way to eliminate misleading and at times untruthful claims. Down the road every smaller honey producer and retail seller will have to consider this labeling issue as a means of staying competitive and in business.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney

rmdial said:


> .If I am going to compete with these beeks, should I mention this to buyers?
> 
> Your thoughts please.


Yes you should! I look at it like this, I am selling everything I don't do to my bees/hives on their way to produce our honey, and the time this takes. Our honey is very distinct, and would never consider adding anything to it, nor would I consider buying someone elses honey and putting our label on it, not even for the mighty dollar!


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## cg3

All this has assumed that the resold honey was from far away and of inferior quality. What if one were to be approached by neighboring beekeepers, with known practices, who didn't want to be bothered with bottling and selling their honey?


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney

cg3 said:


> All this has assumed that the resold honey was from far away and of inferior quality. What if one were to be approached by neighboring beekeepers, with known practices, who didn't want to be bothered with bottling and selling their honey?


Cg3, And the odds of that, I would guess would be rather slim. Also if it is not from my own hives, it is of inferior quality!


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## cg3

That's exactly where I find myself.


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## JohnK and Sheri

cg3 said:


> All this has assumed that the resold honey was from far away and of inferior quality. What if one were to be approached by neighboring beekeepers, with known practices, who didn't want to be bothered with bottling and selling their honey?


We are asked several times a year if we would be interested in purchasing honey from hobbyist beeks and decline because we can not know their practices. 
On the other hand, we are approached by an increasing number of beekeepers every year with local markets they are struggling to supply. Basically they are consistently better at marketing their honey than producing it. I would not consider them unethical unless they expressly tried to pass this honey off as their own if asked, or labeled it as "local" if it is not. 

While there are of course customers strictly concerned that the honey they buy is local, many don't care one way or another. We occasionally sell some varietal honeys and they are popular with customers not only for their different flavors, but also for the novelty that they were NOT produced here in Wisconsin. 

In the case of producer only farm markets, selling someone else's honey is beyond the pale. I think it commonly happens with all sorts of produce, not just with honey. If it is expressly against contracted agreement terms, this should be brought to the attention of the market administration. If they don't care, you can consider informing your potential customers. Either way, you need to decide if pointing out the uneven playing field is worth the headaches that doing so might entail. 

Sheri


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## sqkcrk

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > Ever hear of someone looking forward to a peanut butter and sugar sandwich?
> 
> When I was a kid, I looked forward to my mother's freshly baked bread coming out of the oven. A slice of that, add some (dairy) butter, and sprinkle _sugar _on top!  Mmmm good ...
> 
> Other than that, I agree with _Beregondo's_ comments. :lookout:


I used to eat Wonder Bread butter and sugar sandwiches when Mom wasn't around.


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## jim lyon

Brandy said:


> All I can say is enjoy you $15 lb. honey profits while you can. There is a beekeeper near you, coming soon to your area that will or already has purchased honey at $2.20 a lb. in either 5 gal. buckets or 55 gal. drums. Packs it locally and calls it local honey with a very nice label. If your at $15 lb. he'll go $14. If you're at $12 he'll go $10. If you sell comb honey, he'll cut the price in half. Just be ready to up your game to compete! It's happening now! They also call it marketing.


First of all let me state quite clearly that I believe it unethical to misrepresent what you are selling in any way. But as a producer of lots lots and lots of that $2.20 a pound stuff that I KNOW is every bit as good as the designer honeys sold for far more. My question is how ethical is it to imply that there is something inherently better about a local product produced by a smaller beekeeper? What possible difference can the scale of an operation make. Dosent it all simply boil down to factors like handling, sanitation and ethics? My advice to the smaller guy is to take pride in your product, handle it well, package it attractively and build a customer base but don't try to grow your business by insinuating that the competition is unethical just because their prices are lower than yours.


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## sqkcrk

And to add to what Jim wrote, saying something bad about someone elses product won't cast you in a good light. Answer what you are asked about, but don't try to sell your honey by cutting down someone elses.


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## Brandy

The problem with price is it doesn't reflect any work. The price is arbitrary to make the sale. It could be tomatoes that they pick up at the wholesale distributor. Why bother if you don't grow or manage the produce or product. I really don't care what kind of honey it is if it isn't from his hives. In the old days if I ran out of honey I extracted sooner. If I needed more honey I ran more hives. I never thought about picking up 55 gal. drums to sell at my local market. The fact that it's now easy to do, and is happening in anywhere USA is what this OP's comments were about. I'm with him, I don't like it since I'm still dumb enough to be doing the work myself, plain and simple. I'm the dumb one, the guy with the truck at the loading dock packing the honey up is the smart one!!!


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## rhaldridge

jim lyon said:


> My question is how ethical is it to imply that there is something inherently better about a local product produced by a smaller beekeeper?


This is all theoretical to me, since I never expect to sell any significant amount of honey, but we're venturing into uncertain semantic seas here. If I say, "My honey is really good, for this reason and that reason, and another reason," am I thereby implying that my honey is better than yours? I don't really think so. If I say, "My honey is far superior to the kind of honey most folks buy in the grocery store," am I deceiving anyone, if I truly believe this to be the case?

Last winter, before I had any bees, I tried to educate myself about honey. I've always been the sort of person who buys honey in a plastic squeeze bear. That's because I was ignorant. But when I started to try different kinds of raw honey, for which I paid a substantial premium, I realized how narrow and poor my perception of honey quality has always been. I tried blueberry honey from Maine, acacia honey from Italy, forest honey from Brazil, and so on. These honeys were a revelation to me-- I had no idea that honey had such a range of quality and flavor.

And when I finally got honey from my own bees, I had yet another epiphany. The honey I got from my hives here in FL was completely different from the honey I got from my hives in NY, and both were as good or better than any of the varietals I'd been tasting (and paying very high prices for.)

I think that one advantage that a small producer has over a large scale operation is that the small producer can more easily produce and market these distinct varietals. He can market his locally produced honey to those who prefer to eat as locally and seasonally as possible. It is true that his honey has lower associated external costs, such as the cost of transporting the product long distances, and the cost of middlemen who add no actual value to the product, at least from the viewpoint of the customer. He can point out that buying locally benefits the local economy, keeping money in the local community. He can market his honey by pointing out that the customer buying from him, rather than from a source that involves brokering large quantities of honey is in far less danger of getting an adulterated product, which has happened to the customers who purchased honey that has gone through the standard large scale marketing channels.

The small producer is at an economic disadvantage compared to those who produce honey by the drum, due to the economies of scale involved. It is not unethical of him to point out that his product has as a consequence certain positive aspects, and to emphasize those positive aspects. This is just good marketing.

As an example, if I were marketing Mark's Squeak Creek honey, I would sell the dickens out of his association with the North Country. (I buy some of his honey every time I'm in the North Country, and it is very tasty stuff.) I would design a label that evoked as many of the North Country tropes as I could fit on that label-- loons and trout, pack baskets and snowshoes, dry flies and canoe paddles. I would emphasize the unique environment that produced that honey, in my copy, I would put the most positive possible face on the relatively small size of his operation-- "I keep Squeak Creek small enough that I can be sure that my bees are cared for as well and sustainably as possible; my beekeeping is hands-on because only in that way can I be sure that the honey my bees produce is the best possible honey." As much as possible, I would emphasize any varietals I could separate out from more general descriptions-- blackberry honey instead of wildflower honey, for example. I know that Mark is active in his community and I'm pretty sure that he makes significant efforts to support good works there-- he gives beekeeping talks at local events, for example, and it was an informal talk he gave at a local club that reawakened my old dream of keeping bees. I would emphasize in my copy that he is a vital part of his community, so that those who appreciate that kind of contribution can support him in return.

All of these things do imply that his honey is better than mass-produced honey. In my opinion, it is. But I don't think that any of these marketing approaches are unethical.


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## jim lyon

Ray: All the things you suggest are great marketing ideas and each would apply to our operation as well as Mark's or any other regardless of size. Ours is a fourth generation family business, everyone involved in the production are residents of a small rural community. The hives forage in the scenic rolling hills of rural South Dakota, the landowners quite often folks we have grown up around and the processing done in a modern sanitary facility with modern stainless steel processing equipment, plus we can provide documentation of the honeys purity and absence of chemicals. We produce far more than I would ever attempt to market by ourselves so of course it's sold to larger packing and marketing organizations. To the best of my knowledge they are ethical in their practices as well but that isn't really the point here which is that my "$2.20 a pound" production is gathered by the same type of honeybees as one of much smaller scale and may well be processed in a facility with even stricter standards and given greater care than a small scale one. 
Its a good thing to be proud of ones products and a common theme here on Beesource. It seems everyone is convinced their honey is surely the best. For my family it's been our life's work for 80 years. Why should I feel any less pride.


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## rhaldridge

jim lyon said:


> Its a good thing to be proud of ones products and a common theme here on Beesource. It seems everyone is convinced their honey is surely the best. For my family it's been our life's work for 80 years. Why should I feel any less pride.


You definitely should feel great pride. If anything, you have more to be proud of than most beekeepers, large or small.

It's a shame you can't use that to your advantage in marketing directly to consumers. But you've made the choice, it sounds like, to avoid the hassle, overhead, and extra expense of selling the majority of your product at retail. 

It's also a shame, I think, that you don't get as much of a premium for your honey from the packers as you deserve, while operations that may not care as much as you do about the integrity of the product are still getting a price in the same ballpark as yours... though I may be completely wrong about that. Do packers differentiate between your product and the product of beekeepers with less integrity and devotion to the superiority of the product? If not, they should but their incentive to do so is not as obvious to me as the incentive of a smalltimer selling at retail. He has to somehow make his product seem to be superior to what people can buy at Walmart, because he can't compete on price. He has to compete in other ways to be successful.

I might be off the prophecy mark here, but I'd be willing to bet serious money that a time is coming soon when, if you were willing to make the necessary investment, you could sell at retail without going through the present marketing channels. The internet is bringing customers and producers together in ways not previously possible. It's going to weed out those who try to market an inferior product, because of the internet's almost instantaneous feedback. Mechanisms like this are already at work in several markets, and they are only going to get more responsive and more powerful. For example, yesterday I ordered a used book from an Amazon reseller. A number of resellers had the book, but I bought from the one with a 98% satisfaction rating. 

You could much more easily than was the case in the past develop a brand to which consumers would have a serious degree of loyalty. You could market your brand based on the those things you mentioned in your post, even though the fact that you mentioned them implies strongly that not every producer has a product as good as yours. Not every producer can certify the purity of their products in the way you do, for example. By mentioning that you can do this, are you thereby asserting the superiority of your honey over those whose operation is not as sophisticated as yours, or who cannot afford this kind of truth-in-advertising? I don't think it would be unfair for you to use this selling point, any more than it is unfair for a smalltimer to assert that the size of his operation means that he can give more individual care to each bottle of honey that he sells. 

In the end, this is marketing, and as long as you tell the truth scrupulously, I see no reason to doubt anyone's ethics based on truthful marketing.

In my short time on BeeSource, I've seen this question brought up and examined from many different angles. From an outsider's viewpoint, there seems to be a lot of strange leaps of faith involved in these criticisms. Folks have often complained, for example, that beekeepers shouldn't market their product on the basis of treatment free or chemical free management practices, as they think it is an unfair and irrelevant and even worse implies that chemical management of bees produces an inferior product, which they assert is untrue. Unfortunately, it doesn't really matter what an individual beekeeper thinks about the truth or falsehood of such assertions. What really matters is the customer's perception. 

Again, a smalltimer may assert that his customer is more likely to get a pure product from him than from a packer that blends honey and may buy honey from a beekeeper whose product contains sugar syrup to a significant degree. Or the packer may be using illegally imported Chinese honey. That's okay; he's correct, as such things have happened often enough that the industry has been tarnished by it. In these threads, I've seen many times the sentiment that fellow beekeepers should never say anything like, "My honey is pure. I know it is because it goes directly from the hive to the extractor to bottles." 

They should not advertise their product in this manner, it goes, because it infects customers with skepticism, and may be the ruination of the industry, if customers begin to treat all honey with suspicion.

I just don't get that notion. It seems to me that the real problem is adulterated honey, not those who make the purity of their product a selling point. 

Ah well, sorry to have written a book on what is probably obvious stuff to the more experienced beekeepers. And all of them are more experienced than I am.


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## jim lyon

Ray: Nice thoughtful post. First of all I consider $2.20 a pound a really good price, I sold honey for as little as .85 only about 7 years ago. I pinch myself all the time wondering if this is reality. Do buyers differentiate my product? Yeah sort of. You build up relationships based on past sales so a buyer is no doubt more willing to give certain suppliers preference to a degree but they are pretty much bound by prevailing commodity pricing and don't want to offend their other suppliers unless there is a concrete reason for it. We spend more time than most sampling and grading our honey so there is never a misunderstanding about exactly what they are buying and I have never had a complaint that our honey has been misrepresented. There are lots of things one can do to better market their product but at a considerable cost in time and money. I have decided that my time is best served producing and not marketing. Oddly enough Sue Bee, the nations largest marketer, was founded on just such an idea. The notion that we need to market honey ourselves and not rely on others. In the end, though, their producer pricing is still pretty closely related to prevailing commodity pricing as well. 
One other thing to remember is that as a producer I can only guarantee the purity of our honey, not the flavor or coloring which can vary widely from year to year. The consumer, on the other hand, judges more on taste and appearance and just assumes it is pure.


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## sqkcrk

Thanks Ray. As you can see by my label, I say very little about my honey beyond "Honey from the bees of Squeak Creek Apiaries" and my address. I let the consumer make up their own story. Or none. The abundance and length of time my honey has occupied shelf space in the stores where it is available tells a story too. I leave that to the customer to make up too.

My Little Honeybee turns 25 this year, 2014. We moved to Squeak Creek that year too. I have a 25th Anniversary sticker and a special story to go on the back label the bar code label. Maybe people will read it and get a kick.

I have little reason to think that most folks read beyond the front label and they don't really read that more than once, really. Once they are in the market for honey they are already sold. Then it's a matter of choice on which one to buy. The slightly less expensive store brand or the more expensive local brand. Seems like people in Potsdam, many of which are college students, prefer Squeak Creek Honey over IGAs' store brand. Even when on sale. I can imagine why but I don't really know. Maybe I should do a market survey. Could be interesting.


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## rhaldridge

sqkcrk said:


> Seems like people in Potsdam, many of which are college students, prefer Squeak Creek Honey over IGAs' store brand. Even when on sale. I can imagine why but I don't really know. Maybe I should do a market survey. Could be interesting.


I bet it would be interesting. Some marketing major at SUNY Potsdam would probably like to do such a survey, and I think it would generate some thought-provoking material on niche marketing.

Anyway, interesting thread. I can understand the original poster's problem with those who repackage commodity honey and sell it as local honey. That seems pretty dishonest. I don't know much about the honey market, but I often like to torment the vendors at the farmer's market who are obviously buying their produce from the wholesaler and taking advantage of the current urge to buy local and support local farmers. It goes like this:

"Nice tomatoes. What variety are these?"

"Uhhh... vine-ripened?"

"Yeah, I see that on the box under the table." Then I laugh.


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## sqkcrk

clyderoad said:


> Full disclosure on all honey labels will enable us to sell more honey, at higher prices to more people.


All well and good, but once you produce all the honey you can from all of the hives you can run and demand excedes supply where are you going to get the honey to fill the demand you created? Will you do like your competitors and buy other peoples honey and label it by your standards or will you raise your price thereby making more profit from a limited supply and driving customers into the arms of those you speak of?

Seems like if you sell only your own honey, you will have to be satisfied w/ whatever price you sell honey for and keep on doing that or raise your price. And get more hives to try to increase your personal supply or buy someone elses. Am I missing something?

I still think you should not be so concerned about what others do. Are they keeping you from selling all the honey you make?


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