# Why no honey or comb in my super?



## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

I am new, so take my comments with all appropriate caution.

1) You might want to leave the honey where it is. You don't know what the Fall will be like, and they might need those stores for the winter.
2) People move frames between hives for a variety of reasons, and I haven't heard of issues arising from this action.

Perhaps someone with more experience will chime in......


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Are you using queen excluders?


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## lowmoon (Jun 24, 2013)

Thanks, yes, I'm using queen excluders on both hives. Just can't figure out why one hive is so energetic about building comb and storing honey, and the other is not. Before I put the supers on, there was a lot of burr comb up around the feeders, and even larvae in the burr comb. So the queen was up there in both cases (in both hives I mean). (I was using those Mann Lake feeders with two plastic troughs for feeding and a screened area in between.) That's why I had no doubt that I needed queen excluders.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Colonies have their own personalities, just like us.

Remove the queen excluder from the hive that is not moving up. Leave it off for a week or two and they should move up into the super. Once they have some comb drawn and brood started in it, make sure the queen is back down in the lower brood box and replace your excluder. This entices them to start moving up and the brood keeps them fixed in the upper box. In a few weeks all of your brood will be emerged in the super and you will be good to go.

Some colonies just don't like to cross that excluder, they see it as a ceiling. But once they get started above it they will take off with the excluder in place.


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## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

The hive is on its time table not yours. I've given mine tons of space but still had 2 swarms. Bees do what bees want.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

lowmoon said:


> (I wait until it is capped to take it, don't I?)


Don't be too hasty with this. Find a local beekeeper and ask how much honey they need to get through the winter. You're going to want to make sure they have enough before you take any. In this part of the country I advise new beekeepers not to expect to harvest any honey their first season. Getting the nest built out and provisioned is job #1`.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Your honey errr queen excluder might be the issue.  Personally I wouldn't bother as I don't care where my queen lays. I manage frames early to establish a honey barrier and super above it, seems to work just fine. I tried bottom supering this year too, it works well also.


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## lowmoon (Jun 24, 2013)

beemandan said:


> Don't be too hasty with this. Find a local beekeeper and ask how much honey they need to get through the winter. You're going to want to make sure they have enough before you take any. In this part of the country I advise new beekeepers not to expect to harvest any honey their first season. Getting the nest built out and provisioned is job #1`.


Thanks, good idea. Also good suggestion about the excluder. This might help me locate the queen anyway. I am worried that the queen is weak or missing and that's why they're not doing anything. 

So as far as the honey, I do live in Chicago, and winters here are mighty hard usually. Last one certainly was. Do you usually leave them one super and then, if you are lucky, you get the second one? I will check with my local beekeepers but I know some of them scan these boards so maybe they can advise.


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## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

I sometimes I miss my queen an she has a red dot on her. Mainly because she's near the bottom and travels from side to side cuz she knows I'm looking for her.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

lowmoon said:


> Thanks, Before I put the supers on, there was a lot of burr comb up around the feeders, and even larvae in the burr comb. So the queen was up there in both cases (in both hives I mean). (I was using those Mann Lake feeders with two plastic troughs for feeding and a screened area in between.) That's why I had no doubt that I needed queen excluders.


 Are you still feeding?
If so you don't want to take any of that capped honey/syrup 
Let them keep it


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## lowmoon (Jun 24, 2013)

Hi again. Here is an update. I took the excluder off a week ago. Still the same situation. One hive terrific, lots of honey and bees. The other hive, no activity at all in the super; there are bees below in the two deeps but not as many as in the other hive. I strongly suspect I have no queen. I looked at about 4-5 frames of the top deep this morning and there is a lot of honey around the edges but lots of open cells in the middle. This is the same on all the ones I saw but I did not go down to the bottom. Excuse this beginner's question but, do I need to check all 20 deep frames to verify this, or should I just get a new queen ASAP?


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## Stanger (Mar 4, 2013)

Not seeing the queen doesnt mean she isnt there... Is their eggs and larva??


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## lowmoon (Jun 24, 2013)

I don't see eggs or larvae. I see a region of empty cells in the middle of each frame.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I don't see eggs or larvae. I see a region of empty cells in the middle of each frame. 

That is usually a sign you have a virgin who is about to start laying...


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## lowmoon (Jun 24, 2013)

Well, I hope that's the case. Should I look through my two deeps to see if I have a new queen (if I can find her)? Or just let them figure it out? I look forward to seeing you in Chicago later this summer by the way...


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## lowmoon (Jun 24, 2013)

Update: I went back to the hive this afternoon. I did not take out all 20 deep frames. I took out four or five, some from the top one, some from the bottom. There is no brood that I can see anywhere. All the frames are empty throughout the middle, with honey and pollen around the edges of each frame. I see no queen cells. What to do? Get a queen? Please advise.


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## Ben Franklin (May 3, 2011)

If you have eggs and larva (uncapped brood in the other hive, take a frame from it and put it in the middle of one of the deeps. They should make a few queencells and you will have a queen. Or buy a mated queen ASAP.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would always go with the frame of open brood. That way you don't waste your money and the life of a queen when they actually have a virgin queen. Odds are they have a queen who isn't laying yet, but the eggs are good insurance.

http://bushfarms.com/beespanacea.htm


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## lowmoon (Jun 24, 2013)

Whew...I moved over a frame of beautiful capped brood this morning and replaced one that had a lot of empty cells. This was quite an operation especially on a cloudy, windy day! I didn't get stung, but it was a little intense. This year has been so rainy in Chicago, I don't feel you can wait for perfect weather. I tried to make very very sure no queen was on the frame of brood I moved. I almost brushed that frame clean of bees; just a few nurse bees on it and I'm sure no queen. No, I didn't go through all 20 frames to locate the queen. Does that make me a bad beekeeper? Perhaps but it's the best I could do by myself. Well, if I messed up, it's all a learning experience. This first year has been quite interesting for me, and totally fascinating. Thanks everyone for your advice. I'll keep you posted.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's not capped brood you want. It's open brood and eggs. Not looking for the queen in the colony is probably a sign you are learning to be a beekeeper. Of course you want to not take her, but you don't have to know where she is.


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## lowmoon (Jun 24, 2013)

I was a little down in the dumps from this comment, thinking I did something wrong, but, five days after moving that frame, I checked the whole hive today. All the cells that were empty and dry before now have nectar in them. No brood at all, and no queen. I see a lot (10-12 perhaps) of drones. And on the frame I moved over, there are five conical cells in a row sticking out from the comb and pointing down. Bees are going in and out of them. Is any/all of this encouraging? Do they sound like queen cells? Wish I had a photo to share but didn't have my camera with me.


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## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

Did the cells look anything like that?

If so, those are queen cells. If they are open it's a good sign that you might have a queen in there somewhere. 

Like Mr. Bush said, you need to put a frame of open brood, to include eggs (eggs still standing on end in the cell). A frame of capped brood will help them with population, but that's all.

I would still find a good frame of eggs and put it in there. If they do not draw queen cells, they very likely have a queen. If they do draw queen cells, they don't have a queen. You might just have a queen by the sound of it. However, adding that frame of eggs will make you more sure of it.



> I was a little down in the dumps from this comment, thinking I did something wrong


Don't let it get you down! If you decide to keep bees for any length of time, you will do something MUCH stupider, I promise.


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## lowmoon (Jun 24, 2013)

Thanks, this is like raising kids; you screw up as much as you do the right thing but the kids somehow find a way to survive. As for the cells, mine are the same shape and orientation as in the photo but closer together and close to the middle of the frame than the wooden edge. I have heard they would be close to the bottom. I'll go back up (they are on the roof) and try again. 

The other hive is doing very well. My second super is nearly full of honey (not capped). First super is capped. Next beginner question of the day: do I just keep putting on supers until nectar flow stops? (I figure the extra honey may help to feed my weak hive.)


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## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

> I have heard they would be close to the bottom.


Generally, if bees are preparing to swarm they will build cells along the bottom of frames. If they are superseding their queen, they draw them in the middle. If they become queenless and have to make a new queen, they draw them out all over the place. 




> The other hive is doing very well. My second super is nearly full of honey (not capped). First super is capped. Next beginner question of the day: do I just keep putting on supers until nectar flow stops? (I figure the extra honey may help to feed my weak hive.)


Make sure you wait until it's capped to take it. If not, it will ferment and be totally useless. Make sure you leave them 60lb or so for the winter. 

Give them as many supers as they can fill up.


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## Bee Geek (May 4, 2013)

Doing something is better than doing nothing when you are aware there is a problem. I personally I would have gently bumped the bee's off the frames, then there is no question where the queen is not...
Don't be so hard on yourself, you are a beekeeper, trying new things, and learning new things everyday! Bee Proud!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I was a little down in the dumps from this comment, thinking I did something wrong

Giving them capped brood gives them a boost in population which they probably needed. No reason to feel bad about it. But they also need the means to raise a queen, and that is eggs or very young larvae.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

First, Lighten up on yourself. This is suppose to be fun, we are all doing the best we can. We aren't all Michael Bush yet, thou I read everything he writes. 
Before deciding you are queenless and putting in a purchased queen, I'd go thru every frame. If you have a frame with eggs from another hive, you don't have to be sure.
I like buying queens, because you remove the time and risk involved with raising a queen while a hive is going downhill. Get some nucs and raise a queen BEFORE you need them. Check out Mr. Bush's site for easy queen rearing.
http://bushfarms.com/beesafewgoodqueens.htm


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## lowmoon (Jun 24, 2013)

Update: I found the queen today! I moved the frame from one hive to another on July 2, and the queen turned up July 15--13 days later. As you can see from previous posts, I thought all the cells on the frame I moved over were capped. Apparently there were some eggs in there that I didn't notice, resulting in 6-7 queen cells. On Saturday, the queen cells were capped. Today, Monday, they were open and the queens out. We found a dead one on the ground. How exciting! Thanks all for your help and advice, and encouragement. Looks like this hive has a chance of making it through the winter after all--I'll check in a while to see if she is laying. How long will that take, do you think?


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

Leave her alone for at least a week better yet two. Most likely she will mate just fine and be laying eggs after that. It will take 21 days for the workers to be emerging. If you put another frame of brood in again from the other hive (no queen of course) with the bees still walking on that frame it will keep the numbers nice for getting the hive ready for the new queens eggs. Make sure that there is a couple of frames in that bottom box of just open comb or bare foundation for the bees to draw out so that the queen has room to lay eggs. It should work out just fine. Congratulations on your new queen!!! Ya gotta love it when a new queen shows up


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Most queens are laying in 14 days after emergence. It can be as early as 4 days and as late as 21 days...


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