# A hybrid species?



## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

I actually think that cross is pretty common here in the USA. I often find carnies and Italians together in my hives. I guess it depends on the mating situation. They are still bees and will still provide honey, so no need to worry!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

You may find the following useful:

http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/pdfs/1.12 copy.pdf

If you are using Search for bee species, using "Carniolan" will probably get better results than "carolian".


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

One should remember that virtually queens are open mated with a variety of drones. Hybridization is really the norm, and beekeepers are the better for it. Strictly from a color perspective I love to see a hive with a variety of colorings in the population. Particularly love those striped breeders.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

This idea of crosses between subspecies and ecotypes of Apis milifera being hybrids is incorrect. A cross between Apis milliferara and Apic cerana would be a hybrid. Crosses between common honey bees and african honey bees are not hybrids either. So the whole idea of hybridization in the common honey bee is erroneus. This is not to say that there are no advantages in crossing these bio types. The crosses widen the genetic base and in my opinion produce a better bee. Our bees are muts and produce bees that look like pure Italians all the way to bees that are essentially black. In some instances all in the same hive.
Dave


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That's interesting Dave and I'm one of the people who tends to refer to a cross between say, italian and carniolan as a "carni hybrid". What is the correct term?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Hybrid works for me for crossbreeds, for all my purposes and probably most folks. It is common usage but may not be assbolutely correct usage.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

it's a hybrid of sorts. Just like crossing two parent inbred lines i.e tomatoes, the resulting line is referred to as a hybrid although maybe not in the truest sense.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Cool. I don't like getting too hung up over words, although they are important and misuse can be aggravating. (Plus show ignorance).

Looks like "hybrid" will do, for the common folks.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, both will be unknowingly incorrect. Like the folks who illustrate cartoons about the Mayan Calendar w/ a picture of an Aztec Calendar Wheel. Why don't you call them Carnicrosses? Or Carni/Italian crosses?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Actually, when talking to people I usually do. But for online banter "hybrid" seems to slip out easier, it can avoid confusion with cross (angry) bees.

Yes that Mayan thing was a bit of a laugh, wearing weird clothes & thinking they understood what those old Mayan guys had been talking about.

But most of them were just there for some dancing and drinking LOL!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

'mutts' works for me. (finding just the right 'mutt' is my goal )


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## JoshC1021 (Dec 17, 2012)

my mistake, I meant Carniolans. I forgot to mention this was down south in the Philippines. I guess it would still be the same answer though hahaha


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

A hybrid is the result of a cross between 2 unrelated individuals from the same species. If they are truly 2 different species then they cannot breed and produce fertile offspring i.e. a mule.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

A mule is a hybrid, and not always sterile. The offspring as far as I know is a horse and fertile. Many of the hybrids we use are from different species. Reproductive isolation can be genetic ( different chromosome numbers ), behavioral, or biochemical. 
The use of inbred lines is to increase the expression of hybrid vigor. Hybrid vigor increase as the genetic differences of the parents increase. I wonder if anybody has tried to cross A. mellifera with A. cerana.
I am recently retired from a career in plant breeding. We crossed diploid wild species to hexaploid species to try and retrieve disease and insect resistance.
Dave


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## ashb82 (Apr 22, 2010)

I like Carniolans and italian mix. thats what i have, small clusters in the winter and boom in the spring. i got some pure italians also, they have a huge cluster now and eat up almost all there stores. my Carniolan mix have lots of stores and small clusters. i also notice the Carniolans are out and about in cooler weather.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Does someone sell Carniolan "mite resistant" bees in either nucs or queens? Bear in mind, for shipping times, that I live in West Texas. Also, will Carniolans survive 50 or 60 consecutive days of 100 plus temperatures in the summer?


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## Joel_T (Feb 8, 2013)

(My first year beekeeping - hope there's patience here for inexperience.) I'm going to have 2 hives - I'm thinking 1 Italian and 1 Carniolan. I'm interested to see what differences I can detect over the year between the breeds. If later I introduced a virgin queen of the breed I prefered, would it then mate with drones from both hives and become a balanced mix, or hybrid, or....what?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>A mule is a hybrid, and not always sterile.

The males are always sterile, at least in recorded history (which goes back a very long ways). The females are rarely fertile. The oldest account historically that I've heard of was in 480 BC and was considered a omen.

>The offspring as far as I know is a horse and fertile.

The offspring would still be a mule technically, but there is a record of one that appeared to be a horse and was not sterile. Most are sterile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#Fertility

Zorses (half horse and half zebra) are similar. (aka zebroid zedonk, zebra mule, zonkey, zebrule) They are almost always sterile but there has been at least one that I've heard of that was fertile. I never heard if the fertile zorse had fertile offspring or not.

All of these tend to be a female horse and a male of the other species. When it's the other way around, my grandpa called them "Jennies". But the more common term seems to be "hinnies". They are smaller and more rare.

But these are all crosses with other species. A carniolan is the same species as an Italian. Both are the species Apis mellifera.
One is the variety (aka race, breed) carniolan and the other is the variety ligustica.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesraces.htm


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## wadehump (Sep 30, 2007)

Mutts the only way to go:thumbsup:


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Joel_T said:


> (My first year beekeeping - hope there's patience here for inexperience.) I'm going to have 2 hives - I'm thinking 1 Italian and 1 Carniolan. I'm interested to see what differences I can detect over the year between the breeds. If later I introduced a virgin queen of the breed I prefered, would it then mate with drones from both hives and become a balanced mix, or hybrid, or....what?


welcome to beesource joel.

your idea has some merit, but there are so many variables with bees that you might come to a false conclusion about why one colony did better than the other. it might or might not have something to do with the strain of bee.

i agree that mutts are a good way to go. especially if they have been proven in your area. maybe you can find someone selling bees that are bred near you. even then, and with all bees regardless of strain, each individual queen has to prove herself by producing a healthy and robust colony.


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## Joel_T (Feb 8, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> your idea has some merit, but there are so many variables with bees that you might come to a false conclusion about why one colony did better than the other. it might or might not have something to do with the strain of bee.


I’ve heard different tendencies described for Carniolans and Italians and no doubt my inexperience and how I handle hives would/could skew my conclusions about these 2 breeds. Curiosity’s got the best of me though. Depending on how I handle them they’d turn into “mutts” eventually anyway wouldn’t they? That wouldn't be a bad thing.

This is interesting stuff - can't wait for the hands on part. I thought I’d be at some sort of data overload point already but the more I read the more I’m interested in learning even more. The wife’s happy – I don’t watch so much news


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Bees with Carniolan (or the older term "German Black) heritage do very well here. We usually have a drought in August, and it may last through mid Septembesr, so bees that react quickly to changes in forage by slowing down or speeding up brood production are really necessary. "Southern bree bees", as my friend down the road who has been a beekeeper for almost 40 years calls them, tend to keep laying even in a dearth. I discovered that last year, when my first hive went through a deep and a shallow of stores by mid September by raising a full deep of brood constantly. Not good, they died out in the spring from lack of stores and my failure to feed them back up.

Carnies (and the old German bees) tend to collect huge amounts of propolis, though. Seals the hive up for winter very nicely, but getting frames out can be a challange in the fall!

Peter


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The "German Black" bees were Apis mellifera mellifera, not Apis mellifera canica. Most of tended to not be very gentle, some were vicious. Canies tend to be very nice.


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