# will moth balls hurt bees?



## BjornBee

Maya,
I can not answer about the moth balls as you want to use them. It may work.

What I found interesting about your comments are the extended entrances.

I recently brought back an observation hive from one of my markets. I have it in a downstairs window, with about 18 inches of 1 inch tubing from the entrance to the hive inside. This observation hive is in an apiary with nucs and full size hives, some of which are test hives and allowed to grow in unlimited size.

I was watching the 10 or so guard bees defend the entrance at the end of the tube. Any bee making it past the guard bees (very few) would be met by the bees exiting the hive. None made it very far before they would be turned around and kicked out.

I was amazed to see what 10 good guards could do with a restrictive entrance that seemed to baffle the potential robbers. I wondered what one could do with such entrances on large hives.

All the normal hives have hundreds of guards due to some fall feeding. So they are out in full force. But I think the bees have a larger area to attack from. With the observation hive tube, it come out onto a raised brick. So the entire landing area is a brick turned on end. And they defend it very well.


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## WayneW

not sure about the aromatics affecting the bees, but you could negate the "contact" risk by making a cage of #8 wire cloth to house the mothballs.


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## riverrat

If your having wax moth problem. your hive has to much area to defend inside the hive. I would reduce the hives down to an area they can control. This will help more than moth balls. Usually when starting hives from cutouts or swarms I will start them out in a nuc box if they are a small in numbers. I will leave them there until they get there feet on the ground. once this happens I give them room to expand. One other thing to consider is your wax moths may not be using the front door. they can get thru some small holes and cracks.


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## mayathebee

That sounds like a very interesting observation hive and I like the idea of the entrance as a robbing preventative. But I wonder if bees defend against moths like they do against foreign bees since my restricted entrance didn't seem to help at all in the past. 

As for the moth balls, I'm concerned about the vapors as well as the contact.
Thanks guys!


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## Sarge

The active ingredient is an irritant. It would act like Bee Quick I'm afraid.


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## Troy

Moth balls are made from Naphthalene. This is a petro chemical poison. Keep it away from your bees and comb. It does not air out, and leaves a nasty residual smell that the bees will hate.

Now, Moth flakes are traditionally made with Para Di-Chloro Benzene. I suppose this is also a petro chemical poison, but it apparently will air out within 24 hrs and make the comb suitable for bees again.

Personally I am trying a new route this year. I am trying using the Bt powder sprayed on my combs. I will let you now next spring how this worked out. I like the idea of using a bug (bacteria) to defend the comb from another bug (wax moth). It is a pretty natural approach.

Do a search on this site and you can read more about both PDB and Bt powder including some who sell it here in the For Sale section.


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## tecumseh

maya writes:
I've tried killing moths regularly and restricting the entrance to make it easier to defend, both without much effect.

tecumseh: 
I would expect your success with the moth balls will be about the same as reducing the hive entrance.

also...if the moth balls do not make the bees extremely hostile (the previously mention pdb definitely will) then I would be very surprised.

most bee equipment is just not tight enough to keep out the various moths (different sizes) that we collectively call wax moths.

I would suggest you reread riverrat's approach as far as a general technique that has some meat on the bone.

a couple of extra tidbit at no charge...

1)freezing infected frames is a good remedy to halt an active wax moth larval infestation (24 hours of freezing temperature will kill larvae and eggs). judiciously used (plus typically a bit of feed) this should allow a good hive to get ahead of the wax moth's destruction. place infected frames in a plastic bag if you do not want quantities of the little larvae at the bottom of your freezer.

2) at times here the pollen is coming in much faster than the nectar and on occasion (not all hives but some hives) the bottom of the hive gets light in stores and heavy in pollen. for some reason the bees don't recognize the need to defend these frames like they would nectar or brood and it is not unusual for wax moth infestation to get a start here. frame construction seems to somewhat impact this problem in that a split bottom bar represents a foot hold for the moth (I have been slowly shifting to solid bottom bars). when I do recognize this problem ahead of the curve (the bottom box is very light and almost empty of bees) then simply rotating the brood/nectar to the bottom and shifting the pollen frames to the top seems to limit the problem dramatically.

good luck...


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## Michael Bush

>will moth balls hurt bees?

Yes. Moth balls of any type will kill bees if you put them in a hive with bees. "Moth balls" (probably not actually balls) of the PDB type can be aired out so that they will not harm the bees after there are none of them in the boxes and they have been aired out. The Napthalene type have not been approved for use on combs and the combs will smell from it for years and it is harmful to the bees.

Freezing would be my first choice if you have the space or the weather is cold enough. Bt would be my second choice.


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## Oldbee

It must stay pretty warm all year round in the Virgin Islands.

mayathebee: What kind of 'wax moths' do you think you have,..........in the Virgin Islands?? You have the University of the Virgin Islands right there [as far as I know] and they have an Entomology Department; why not ask them?? Putting PDB, NOT napthalene type, somewhere on the OUTSIDE of the hive might deter some kind of wax moths but what do I know about,...............the Virgin Islands. Are there no other beekeepers on the,..Virgin Islands, no one at all?? Who might 'know' something about your 'problem'?

Reducing the space the bees need to 'defend'... [riverrat], and a 'narrow extended' entrance might solve the 'problem' with the wax moths, but you REALLY need to talk with someone [beekeeper] from the,.........Bahamas..Caribbean,.......Florida at least. Good luck.


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## jwhiteker

Michael Bush said:


> >will moth balls hurt bees?
> 
> Yes. Moth balls of any type will kill bees if you put them in a hive with bees. "Moth balls" (probably not actually balls) of the PDB type can be aired out so that they will not harm the bees after there are none of them in the boxes and they have been aired out. The Napthalene type have not been approved for use on combs and the combs will smell from it for years and it is harmful to the bees.
> 
> Freezing would be my first choice if you have the space or the weather is cold enough. Bt would be my second choice.


Okay Michael, you have me worried now. I just purchased some used hives ( I know, I know) but this is an expensive hobby and I'm not rich. The hive's were stored in a clean garage, but the owner had put a paper plate with moth crystals on top of the frames in each hive body. I removed the crystals two weeks ago, and the hives are in my garage and still smell like those crystals. I've been airing them out and I had planned to use them for swarm removal. Oddly enough though, today I found a stray honey bee that had been working my bradford pear tree, so I placed her on the entrance and even coaxed her inside a bit. She did everything in her power to avoid the inside of that hive. What do you think? Any chance I can freeze and air these out enough to use for swarm removal?


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## Michael Bush

>Okay Michael, you have me worried now. I just purchased some used hives ( I know, I know) but this is an expensive hobby and I'm not rich. The hive's were stored in a clean garage, but the owner had put a paper plate with moth crystals on top of the frames in each hive body.

Crystals are promising, but not definitive. PDB is usually in the form of crystals, but sometimes naphalene is as well...

> I removed the crystals two weeks ago, and the hives are in my garage and still smell like those crystals. I've been airing them out and I had planned to use them for swarm removal. Oddly enough though, today I found a stray honey bee that had been working my bradford pear tree, so I placed her on the entrance and even coaxed her inside a bit. She did everything in her power to avoid the inside of that hive. What do you think? Any chance I can freeze and air these out enough to use for swarm removal? 

I would put them outside to air out. I would probably scatter the boxes around outside in the shade on a nice day, standing on end so the wind blows through them, and let them really get some air. Obviously you still need to air them out more...


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## ruthiesbees

sorry to resurrect a really old thread, but I am trying to figure out if the mothballs that I put out to deter the deer in my flower beds might be killing my 2 nucs. These nucs were made up in mid July with new queens from this year. Both are raising brood strongly, but have very little stores. Every time I open the hives (screened bottoms), I am seeing 10-20 dead bees and the mortuary bees are not attempting to get rid of them. These are 5 over 5 nucs with top entrances so the bees have a bit more work to remove the dead. Just this Saturday, I removed all the bars and dumped the dead bees out and added a feeder. Peaked in on Sunday and found about 10 more dead bees.

Back to the moth balls...This spring, I had put out about 20 moth balls in my flower beds because the deer were tearing things up. Smell was too much for me so I picked up all the balls that I could locate. However, in this area with the 2 nucs, it still smells strongly of moth balls (even though I can't see any to remove). So either the bees have collected it in there hive or there are some hiding somewhere in the flowers after 5 months. A google search turned up this thread so I thought I'd see if other people had any experience with them.


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## MTN-Bees

Were the moth balls real close to the nucs?
What was the varroa mite count in the 2 nucs?


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## ruthiesbees

yes the moth balls are real close to the nucs, I just can't find them in the bushes to get rid of them. But the scent near the nucs is still very strongly of moth balls, which is why I question whether they could be causing the dead bees. I guess I might try to move the 2 nucs this weekend to another spot in the yard that doesn't smell of moth balls. As far as the mite count, these being new nucs, there aren't enough bees for me to spare to test.


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## MTN-Bees

How new are the nucs and did you have a brood break?

Are the queens still laying?

My last nucs were made up by August 1st if you made them up this month the queens may not be laying any longer. Mites can quickly overtake a nuc.


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## ruthiesbees

Nucs were made up July 10 by pulling spring 2014 queens out of the main hive--to give the main hives a brood break. So no at first, the nucs did not get any sort of brood break except the queen wasn't laying tons of drones anymore either, just small patches of brood until the numbers started to get built up. Then I had to steal one of the nuc queens for one of the main hives in August that didn't requeen, so that one did get a short break. (they didn't raise their own queen as I had a queen cell to give them so it wasn't a full 30 day break).

I would think if it were mites overtaking the nuc that I'd at least be able to see one or two mites on the workers or the effects like DWV, none of which I am seeing on any of the bees. I actually took 2 bars of one of the nucs with my observation hive to the county fair in early September so I had many many hours to look at those bees and never did spot a single adult mite on those bees.


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## AstroBee

I seriously doubt that moth balls in nearby bushes would be damaging your nucs. This colony is clearly distressed as they are not cleaning out the dead bees. The upper entrance shouldn't be a show stopper, but does add more effort. I suspect that these bees are getting robbed out, and simply do not have adequate populations to manage all aspects of the colony. Dead bees on the screen is often seen after robbing. There could be many reasons why they have under performed, but the likely cause is that they were made in mid-July with very little nectar coming (unless you're within reach of agriculture, and then you might have other issues to explain the problem). Without aggressive feeding during a dearth small colonies will often dwindle and just keep their heads above water. Without an infusion of bees, the prognosis for them is not good.


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## ruthiesbees

thanks, AstroBee. I just didn't want to throw "good money after bad". I do have plenty of capped brood that I could add to these nucs from other hives and I already planned to balance out the stores before we go into winter. I will add a brood bar to each nuc this Sat instead of moving the hives and also give them a frame of nectar since the other hives are really packing it away in the brood chambers.


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## dsegrest

ruthiesbees said:


> Nucs were made up July 10 by pulling spring 2014 queens out of the main hive--to give the main hives a brood break. So no at first, the nucs did not get any sort of brood break except the queen wasn't laying tons of drones anymore either, just small patches of brood until the numbers started to get built up. Then I had to steal one of the nuc queens for one of the main hives in August that didn't requeen, so that one did get a short break. (they didn't raise their own queen as I had a queen cell to give them so it wasn't a full 30 day break).
> 
> I would think if it were mites overtaking the nuc that I'd at least be able to see one or two mites on the workers or the effects like DWV, none of which I am seeing on any of the bees. I actually took 2 bars of one of the nucs with my observation hive to the county fair in early September so I had many many hours to look at those bees and never did spot a single adult mite on those bees.


Mites are almost impossible to see on a live bee, even with a magnifying glass. Try a sticky board. It will not cost you bees.


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## AstroBee

Just keep in mind that there are no guarantees, but if your donor hives can spare the brood then its worth the risk. We still have a good brood cycle until a potential frost. Get the entrances as small as possible and try to feed. Since we have a bit of a fall flow going right now, feeding is more feasible compared to even a couple of weeks ago. Do it now before the first frost, as it will then be a robbing frenzy again.


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## ruthiesbees

Entrances are already a small round hole (as these are non-standard nucs) and I will continue the in-hive feeders through Oct. The population is probably small enough that I could reduce the entrance to a one-bee hole, although I do have quite a few foragers flying around me when I take the 2 boxes apart to do an inspection. I may go ahead and do a powder sugar shake in the box this weekend when I add the brood. Guess that can't hurt anything, as long as I don't get it in the open brood. Thanks for the info. These 2 nucs are my backup colonies in case one of the main hives goes queenless in February, like it did this year. So I'm doing a lot of learning on them, and it's not the end of the world if they don't make it through until next spring (although I did read your other post AstroBee about keeping nucs in your unheated garage over the winter). In fact, most beekeepers would combine these 2 nucs with the big colonies for the winter and not worry about messing with them. Like I said, I'm learning with them...


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## MTN-Bees

You can also do a sugar shake and put the bees back in the hive when your done.


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## ruthiesbees

I refilled both feeders and did a sugar shake down between the bars. Now I have little ghost bees running around. Some of the dead bees were on the tops of the bar this time and their tongues were out. Do they do that with mites or just with starvation and/or poisoning?









keep in mind that this is a non-standard nuc with top bars (that happen to be spread apart at the moment). The rectangle container is a mix of pollen that I was taking myself with wheat germ but decided the wheat germ was too much for my system so I'm feeding it back to the bees. The in hive feeder isn't shown in the picture.


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## MTN-Bees

Go to YouTube and search for bee sugar roll. Look for a video that shows how to evaluate the colony for varroa. Pouring sugar down though the hive will not help the situation as powdered sugar does not help open brood.

If you know someone locally that knows about evaluating for varroa that might help also. 

There are a number of reasons bees die with their tongues out. Pesticide poisoning is one of them. Im not sure that's your problem. Ruling out varroa is easier and can be fixed.


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## AstroBee

ruthiesbees said:


> keeping nucs in your unheated garage over the winter


What I may not have said in that post is that I do this only when I have important genetics that I'm trying to evaluate that with no fault of their own didn't get to a target population.


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## Phoebee

The local Master Gardeners spray their teaching garden with Bobbex deer repellant. So far as I know, the stuff is harmless to bees ... our beekeeper's association has three hives at that garden. However, the general consensus is that Bobbex repels master gardeners at least as well as it repels deer, at least for an hour or two. One poor woman has volunteered to apply it, and everyone trys to be gone before she starts spraying in the evening.


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## ruthiesbees

Good news is that both nucs no longer have any dead bees at the bottom of the hive when I inspect. I have been feeding syrup in the hive, did the powder sugar shake a couple weeks ago and managed to locate all 6 moth balls that were hidden in the bushes close to these nucs (and remove them). The area no longer smells like moth balls when I open the hive. So I really don't know what was causing their deaths, but they are packing stores away for winter. It's been a fun challenge and I hate to see the cold weather get here so I can't go in the boxes each weekend.


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