# Hard Sugar



## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

I would think a sawzall and some bolt cutters to dispense with the tote and start chipping sugar away into drums? Drums could go on a turkey fryer burner for heating


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Sawzall to cut away the tote and maybe to start cutting up the block....... after that ???


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Find a ditch or depression in the earth somewhere convenient, lay out some plastic to form a a bowl, and unload the block of sugar onto the plastic. Add some water and you have syrup.

I know it sounds crazy, but check out this photo from Keith Jarrett of his "feeders" ....










There is syrup under that straw. You don't have to leave the syrup in the plastic "bowl". Pump it into containers and transport elsewhere.

Here is the the thread where Keith posted this:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?292734-Feeders-for-lots-of-hives

Keith's Photobucket library is here:
http://s148.photobucket.com/user/CNHoney/library/?sort=3&page=1
One of the other photos is of a stack of sugar totes stored outside.

.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

the doc said:


> I would think a sawzall and some bolt cutters to dispense with the tote....


Sorry, wrong word. The sugar is in bags. Cut table with knife.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you heat it it will turn into more of a paste than a block and then you might be able to scoop the gooey paste out... assuming, of course, you don't burn it...


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Each bag weighs a metric ton?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I wonder if a cheap hydraulic press would just break it up into more manageable chunks? Maybe lay a large heavy sheet of metal on top and run over it with a heavy vehicle or farm equipment? Maybe a larger hammer drill or small jack hammer?

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> If you heat it it will turn into more of a paste than a block and then you might be able to scoop the gooey paste out... assuming, of course, you don't burn it...


That's not a bad idea....he should be able to heat it without burning it in his hot room. It depends on what the optimum temperature would be.

deknow


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

How fast do you need to use it? I would think a pickaxe or a splitting maul like you use for firewood would break off chunks that could be rendered to syrup pretty easily. Spread a plastic tarp to catch the smaller pieces.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

My first thought was "Sledgehammer".


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...or send the wife to a spa for the weekend and use the swimming pool! Now _that's_ an open feeder.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

It's said by survival gurus that one can boil water in a paper bag on an open fire, the water keeps the bag from burning. Soooooo....

Add the appropriate amount of water to your one ton bag, place on a large fire and stand well Back.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> That's not a bad idea....he should be able to heat it without burning it in his hot room. It depends on what the optimum temperature would be.
> 
> deknow


Yeah Michael, can you get it into your ho room? Or are the doors too narrow? Got any steam? If you could elevate the ag bag over your bulk tank, do you think sticking a steam pipe into the sugar would liquify it and then it would drain into your bulk tank?

An interesting dilemma.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

I would use an auger to break it into pieces. Convert volume of sugar into weight of sugar (for instance, a half gallon of sugar weighs x ounces), and use the chunks accordingly while you add them to the water. You will need a fair sized reservoir for this. This may be more time efficient.
If this sounds like a crazy idea, it's because I've never done it before. I've also never had a metric ton to deal with either. It's just what comes to the top of my head with that amount of sugar.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

So it's a super sack on a pallet which makes for 1 big sugar cube. 

First I'd get a 12" recovery blade on a sawzall, recovery blades are tough and don't tend to break at the tang or hang up. Make a deep cut on top about 8" in from a side the full length, score a shallow cut about 10" down on the side the full length. Smack it with a sledge hammer and a manageable column should break at the score. The same technique works with masonry, it should work with sugar.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I would think about setting it under cover of some kind and pouring a couple gallons of cider vinegar over it. Might make the best open feeder ever. Or not.

I'll let you try it first.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Edymnion said:


> My first thought was "Sledgehammer".


Too much work, jackhammer!


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Whats wrong with a backhoe or front bucket and crush with tractor weight? This is more fun than actually doing the work.

Forklift and a wall to hold the bag. Spear until done.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

How many bags are you talking about? I wonder if you have a gravel pit near you with a crusher that could handle blocks that size


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Got any steam? 

That would be ideal to insure not burning it.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

On a very small scale if brown sugar in a bag goes hard as a rock if you close in a piece of fresh bread ( high moisture content) and seal the bag the entire bag of sugar is soft in a day or so. If you the same principle with something other than bread perhaps you would end up with soft bags of sugar.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

I hope real- real cheap.


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## CMCDennisS (Sep 28, 2012)

Sweet Challenge!

First, if it is available at a good price and you can use it, secure the buy at once.

My approach-

If it is one chunk or similar I would be setting up 4 or so 55 gal drums close to your water source, together with your hive weighing scale and a 5 gal bucket.
I would also have gone to Home depot and got their submersible trash pump, together with a hook and lanyard, and a discharge hose kit- at least 6 or so feet.

Fill the 5 gal bucket with a measurable amount, fill the 55 gal drum about half full and figure your sugar ratio and how many buckets you will need.
dump the required number of buckets, and start filling the next drum.
Place the trash pump with attached discharge hose into the drum and halfway submerged in water. secure to side with hook and lanyard.
Direct the hose to bottom of drum and turn on pump.
What will happen if you don't waste time is that the pump will recycle the sugar through till mixed.
On to the next one when mixture gets mixed.

If it is one chunk, move your air compressor nearby and , while at Home Depot, grab an air hammer and the widest air chisel bit (2") or so and have at it, and fill the bucket as fast as you can.

Hundred pound bags or so, I would cut the tops off, and slit the side, top to bottom while sitting in my wheel barrow.
Use the pump to fill manageable containers for your storage use as desired.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

CMCDennisS said:


> Sweet Challenge!
> 
> First, if it is available at a good price and you can use it, secure the buy at once.


I agree. Where there is a will, there is a way. 

That kind of thinking gets me into trouble at times... at least until I accomplish the goal. Then the nay sayers all start back peddling.

Typically, Just about the time you are done breaking it all up, you'll have figured out the most efficient way to do it.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

If they are really hard to break apart, maybe you could drill some holes, shove plastic bags/sheeting or melt wax into the holes so they are waterproof. Fill the holes with water (maybe use a ratchet strap to hold a hard plug of some kind against the hole), and see if there is anywhere nearby that is cold enough for the water to freeze and expand.

I think you won't have much trouble finding a place that is cold enough 

deknow

edit: Perhaps some hot water poured slowly (or a cold water drip) would make the holes easier than drilling them?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

As fun as heavy machinery would be, going to change my vote to go with WBVC. Add water slowly and wait till it reaches the slushy stage and just use a shovel.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

If you are going to liquify it then just make syrup. All you need are 275 gallons of hot water to turn it into 1:1... Seriously

Put the sugar on your trailer on a large piece of butyl or pond liner. Build a containment wall around it out of scrap material = 12 or 18 inches is tall enough.

Get a bilge pump, put a paint strainer bag over it and attach a bit of hose.

I've got easy access to my 40 gallon hot water heater (don't know for you but the whole operation would be under weight limits for a tandem axle trailer), hook up to the hot water heater and hose down the block of sugar until incoming water starts to cool down or you are reaching the limit on the containment wall. Stir a bit with an oar or paddle.

Double check the ratio, pump a gallon into a milk jug and check - 1:1 weighs 10.3/gallon = I suspect it'll be heavier than that but I can't imagine it hitting 2:1 (If it's better than 1:1 It really doesn't matter) 

Drop in the bilge pump and begin filling your syrup containers. Repeat. At 1:1 this will fill nearly (8) 55 gallon drums.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I bet Rubbermaid has a water trough big enough to handle it. With an 1 1/2" drain already built in. Elevate the whole thing and let gravity be your friend.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

snl said:


> Too much work, jackhammer!


Numatic chisel? Like sculptures use?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> If they are really hard to break apart, maybe you could drill some holes, shove plastic bags/sheeting or melt wax into the holes so they are waterproof. Fill the holes with water (maybe use a ratchet strap to hold a hard plug of some kind against the hole), and see if there is anywhere nearby that is cold enough for the water to freeze and expand.
> 
> I think you won't have much trouble finding a place that is cold enough
> 
> ...


I thought u were going to suggest TNT. My wife doesn't play w/ explosives anymore or I would send her over to VT to help.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Rent an electric chipping hammer. When I owned Car Washes I did this often to repair brickwork, install post, dispensers and such. The Milwaukee brand is very powerful and around here comes with several bits and blades.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ren...XayAGj-4HoDQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1465&bih=796


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

One of those cheap hammer drills from Harbor Freight should be able to break it up into chunks big enough to handle pretty easy.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

IF you can unload it near a large yard, why not use it as a huge "moutain camp" feeder? Cover it to keep rain out but add water as needed (daily?) to keep it slightly moist and let the bees carry it away, kind of like a giant salt block for cattle. One hive can go through 5 pounds of dry sugar pretty quick sitting on top of a hive.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

If it is dry and hard and out of the hive, I don't think you will get any takers. If it was wet the bees would take it. Just take an axe and make chunks that will fit in a metal container, add water and heat til liquefied.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Go to a quarry, drill and balst.

How small of pieces do you want?

Make sure you post on youtube.

Tom


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

NI3 Baby!
http://www.instructables.com/id/Nitrogen-Triiodide/

I'll leave the details to the user...but yes, please post the video (if the camera survives...at least the memory card).

deknow (expecting Homeland Security to knock on the hotel room door any second)


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I just want to know who gets the prize for the best idea?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

What material is the bag made of? Paper or a woven plastic like polypropylene?

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Woven plastic. It's the same sort of Ag Bag that bulk fertilizer is transported in.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

This...

http://m.tractorsupply.com/en/store/allied-precision-bucket-heater-1000-w

And a stock tank.

Be careful with the heater it doesn't have a thermostat.
You can wire a hot water heater thermostats in it if your handy.
Attach the to stock tank with stainless steel and a good sealer.
Galvanized or plastic/ rubber maid.
The Rubbermaid will crack if it's not set level and you fill it.

Be Safe


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121210568327

Use it to make chunks of the sugar and drop into a boiling tank to convert to syrup. Should be fast and easy.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Lauri said:


> I just want to know who gets the prize for the best idea?



Yes, come on Michael, what did you decide? Inquiring minds want to know!!!


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## Myron Denny (Sep 27, 2009)

Last year I had a barrel of Sugar "Warehouse floor sweepings" that had turned rock hard. I turned the barrel on it's side and added 1 gal of water daily to soften it until the bees cleaned it up. It took several days but they cleaned all the sugar out of the barrel. You might add a small amount of Lauri's vinegar to your water.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I propose an annual event; The Michael Palmer Sugar Cube Demolition Derby. 

Caution; professional beekeeper, do not try this a home.


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## Beesrme (Feb 4, 2011)

Michael Palmer, Try using a immersion heater you can buy them from Mann lake or Dadant if sugar is in a tote then you can open the top filler hole and dig down into the hard sugar to make space for the heater and make sure that to keep element covered. They are preset to provide the correct temp to liquify either sugar or honey. Thomas Peavey


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

How cheap is it? There must be a price point which makes this project doable or not.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

please someone come up with a method that will work, Mike needs this for the final chapter of his book:thumbsup:


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

Feather and wedge 

http://www.bobvila.com/sections/tv-...7001-splitting-granite-for-the-retaining-wall


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## Beesrme (Feb 4, 2011)

Adrian, All you would need to do is call Mann Lake and I did that so I could give you the info. The shielded Immersion Heater is $55.95 and the barrel or drum heater is $409.00 find both in Mann Lakes catalog under heaters.

I read where some people are saying use a propane heater but that can be to easy to scorch the sugar and make it no good. Tom Peavey


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Beesrme, sorry for the confusion. I was wondering how cheap the sugar was, and thus work out whether the cost savings were worth the work involved.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What I heard from Michael tells me it's worth dealing with.


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## Spark (Feb 24, 2011)

I would just throw it through a wood chipper like the tree guys use.


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## Beesrme (Feb 4, 2011)

Adrian, Sorry misunderstood your question. I used to get totes or barrels of left over sugar from the canneries out here in Calif. and it would get crystallized easily and have to be liquified most of the time the cost was give the foreman a case of honey for the workers and haul it away the last time it was 12 totes full each holding 275 Gallons. But now they are not ordering to much and so it has dried up. Thomas Peavey


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

The shielded immersion heater is a bit cheaper here.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000BDB4UG

Allied is the best value I've found. I go though a few every year. Once plugged in they heat until they burn out.

Just a word of caution. Please be careful I think these have a huge potential to start a fire or seriously electrocute someone.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I hate to mention this but did you think of a 5 gal pail. Ad the right amount of sugar, the right amount of water and then take it to HD paint department to mix it up. Alright they might not want to do it for you so borrow someone's cement mixer. I got one if you need it.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

What about a hydrolic wood splitter?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Like this?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=690338754331525&set=vb.376477915717612&type=2&theater


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

Chain Saw it into the sizes you want. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_CBpJNxdag


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## Marshall (Mar 20, 2012)

Split the bahs. Put the bag along with the sugar in a measured out warm water bath. My guess is that within seconds the sugar will release from the bag and begin to melt. Pull the bags out and keep melting it down in batches.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I assume you have a fork lift and a larger tank. Lift the solid bin above the tank, and place a steam lance in from the top. You should then be able to disolve the sugar and further dilute it in the tank below. The steam lance could be a project , but think like McIver.

crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Where is MP? What I am not clear on is what size the bags are (2200 # per bag?) and what the bags are made from (leak proof?).


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## justusflynns (Aug 2, 2012)

Cheap new 16' above ground pool not too far from you.

http://burlington.craigslist.org/hsh/4318801973.html

How to drop it in without ruining the liner is another question.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

justusflynns said:


> Cheap new 16' above ground pool not too far from you.
> How to drop it in without ruining the liner is another question.


He can place the bag of sugar on top of the liner and then put the pool up but he is going to get a bunch of critters going after the sugar water. Probably drown a lot of his bees in the mix too.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not at this time of year in VT.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I guess I'll pass on the swimming pools and dynamite. The company just gave me 3 tons of loose sugar for free, and say I'm going to get sick of them calling me with more. I say, Bring it on!


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Michael Palmer said:


> I guess I'll pass on the swimming pools and dynamite.


Youtube's loss.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> The company just gave me 3 tons of loose sugar for free, and say I'm going to get sick of them calling me with more. I say, Bring it on!


OK I will bite. Why is the company having a hard time giving away sugar. Even end processes can be used for road salt.


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## mitch30 (Feb 8, 2014)

Where do you find cheap sugar?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I'll never tell.


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## Will O'Brien (Feb 22, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> I'll never tell.


Rats...Darn you Michael Palmer, I thought that someone would get the source info. out of you.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

That's like asking where you found the morels.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Where did u find the morels?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Check out the railroad sidings between Essex Junction and the RR bridge over the Winooski.

My dog yes, my morels maybe, my sugar never.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

A couple of thoughts come to mind. If you do not own a tractor with a bucket you can borrow one... Lift sugar bags as high as they will go and dump them... Scoop up busted up sugar. Or rent a round bale grinder at your local Agway and place bags in it and grind.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

Aww Michael you shouldn't have given up the morels so easy.....not all of us live far and away.....I spend a lot of time along the winoski......I love morels.....and the best spot I knew has been developed......this is almost a better tip than where your finding free sugar.

But don't worry, I won't be too greedy come the season.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Largest consumer of sugar in MP's area would be the Unilever plant (aka Ben and Jerry's) In the quantities they handle they are bound to have spillage and contamination which is what I would guess Mike is getting for free.


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## Waggle (Mar 7, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Yeah Michael, can you get it into your ho room?


Forget where he's getting the sugar from, I want to know where his "ho room" is:no:.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Ok Mike, so HOW did you handle the hard sugar???

Inquiring minds want to know.........


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I didn't bother with it, since they're giving me tons of loose sugar.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Maybe somebody else would like it.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Make an offer


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Assuming you have nothing invested in it, I'll give you one dolla!!! 
First come first serve, right?


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Why not just sit it outside and let the weather take care of it ? somewhere in a nuc yard away from any honey production.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Make an offer


Really? Here is my offer: Carma


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Really? Here is my offer: Carma


What the heck is Carma?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

In Maine it is the state of being calmer than someone else.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Brian meant Karma, w/ a "k". But doesn't understand what karma is. Not in the Buddhist/Indian sense of its meaning anyway.

Karma has nothing to do w/ cars. Carma might, I don't know.

Spelling maters. And, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Thanks Captain Obvious


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike, I use a 3-4 inch trash pump, I load 2000lb totes over my tank, cut the bottom out add water turn on the pump.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Mikes knot goin two giv a way hiz sorse.. if he wuz he would have afor now


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Karma has nothing to do w/ cars.


Sure it does. Some day his karma will run over his dogma.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

You could also drill a hole into the block with a contractors drill bit, large enough to drop an M-80 with a lit fuze down into the center of the mass. Cover the tote with a heavy tarp. My guess is that it would be more than enough to shatter the sugar into manageable chunks to melt.


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

BeeCurious said:


> What the heck is Carma?


I heard Carma's sister, Karma, is much better!









rimshot


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Riskybizz said:


> You could also drill a hole into the block with a contractors drill bit, large enough to drop an M-80 with a lit fuze down into the center of the mass. Cover the tote with a heavy tarp.


Wow!  

Talk about _sugar bombs_! :lpf:


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Perhaps the spelling police will get busted by the capitalization police.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Spelling maters. And, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.


"maters" has two tees


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Just seeing who was paying attention.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Spelling maters. And, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.


Each and every time you point out spelling errors you prove it doesn't matter because you know exactly what I am trying to say even though it is spelled wrong.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Karma isn't "what goes around comes around" or "tit for tat".


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

It's teat.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Just seeing who was paying attention.


I win


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## oldiron56 (Mar 9, 2009)

cool Lauri I saw one of those powering a washing machine, wringer and all


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I believe that Michael started this Thread to see how many crazy ideas would get Posted.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> started this Thread to see how many crazy ideas would get Posted.


mine isn't crazy... I make about 30,000 gallons a year with hard sugar.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Okay. Except Keith's.


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