# Possible Problem



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

A few days ago I removed the queen from a fairly fiesty hive - they needed it. I had two purposes in mind when doing this, 1) mellow them with a new queen, 2) use the hive as a cell maker, using brood from my "breeder" queen. I waited 3 days then carefully destroyed all queen cells that they had started, then gave them a frame of eggs and young larva from my breeder. This morning I verified that they had several nice queen cells started from the breeder brood. I closed them up and continued working the rest of the yard. Just as I was closing up the last colony I had open, I heard a loud hum, like the sound of a swarm, so I looked around, none of my colonies were swarming. I stepped out of the shade cloth enclosure that surrounds my hives, and still did not see the swarm. But, as soon as I had stepped back into the enclosure I saw them coming in from the North. The swarm was coming from outside my apiary. I have lots of idle equipment piled just adjacent to the apiary, many with combs, none are sealed tight. Often swarms are captured this way. But not today, this swarm zeroed in on my queenless cell maker, many just flew right into the entrance, quite a few formed a cluster on one end of the bottom board, but within 10 minutes all had entered the hive, no fighting, no muss, no fuss. Except for my queen cell maker, I'm afraid the swarm queen will destroy my carefully nurtured queen cells.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

sounds like AHB swarm to me....


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Joe, it sure sounds like your queenless cell builder has been taken over by an africanized honey bee swarm. I've read about it happening. You're in the right neck of the woods.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Watching the drama unfold*



Dan Williamson said:


> sounds like AHB swarm to me....





George Fergusson said:


> Joe, it sure sounds like your queenless cell builder has been taken over by an africanized honey bee swarm. I've read about it happening. You're in the right neck of the woods.


Quite possibly so. I too had read about this happening, but it was said that they would take over queenright colonies. I was skeptical that this could actually happen, but I've seen it for myself. However, I still have some skepticism as to their being AHB, perhaps most _Apis mellifera_ also exhibit this trait. It would be something difficult to verify, under most circumstances.

Either way, I will keep a close eye on them, see how it goes. Perhaps they will be better mannered, than they were before. And at least I have another cell builder making a batch of cells.


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## Korny's Korner (Mar 25, 2007)

Northern beek and this sounds scarry  No expert, but maybe you could , if queen cells are okay, shake bees off frames move them to the top of a queen right hive. Put a queen excluder on, nurse bees will move up to care for brood . Then put false bottom on after nurse bees are up. I would probably destroy the swarm. I believe that is what is recommended for swarms of unknown origin in africanized areas. Then you can start again with your plan 

Korny


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Well, I've been keeping bees, here in "AHB country", for most of a decade now. Some colonies get ornery, some are mellow. When I don't like their manners, I change their queen. Many of my colonies were wild swarms. I didn't even requeen them with any commercial stock until 2 years ago. I've dealt with bees, earlier, in other parts of the country, much before AHB, that had manners much worse than any I've seen here in AHB territory.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

That must have been quite a sight to behold...I'm a little jealous actually. Its even more amazing that you were there at precisely the right time.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>However, I still have some skepticism as to their being AHB, perhaps most Apis mellifera also exhibit this trait.

Not that I've ever heard about or read about. European honey bees will take over abandoned/empty equipment, but hostile colony usurpation seems to be a behavior that only africanized honey bees exhibit.

I'm glad you're cool with it Joe, I'd be sweating bullets


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Just saw a slideshow presentation from one of the bee labs back in Feb. It showed multiple AHB invasion swarms. One of the point being made was this:

They showed the swarms and then some small clusters after alot of bees had entered the hive..... These small clusters (some very small, some larger) still on the outside. They had taken these clusters and analyzed them... They found queens inside. The invasion swarms were protecting the queen and in some cases multiple queens in the event of defense by the initial colony.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Update:
Wednesday morning I gave the formerly queenless cell builder colony a careful examination. The queen cells were still there -- yah, so I moved them to a different cell builder colony. The population was, at least, double what it had been -- the native population of this hive were dark bees, now there were a large percentage of the Italian yellow bees. And, finally I saw the new queen, she hadn't begun laying yet, but appeared to be sizing up nicely -- with the completely fuzzy thorax of a recent virgin.
--------
As George Fergusson and Dan Williamson have mentioned, these are quite possibly AHB. If this is typical behavior for AHB, then, how can we expect to keep them out. They could take over anywhere they wished, and how would we even know? Since "hot" colonies are routinely requeened or destroyed, we may soon see calm AHB everywhere they wish to be, maybe we already do.

Two years ago, I began requeening with Cordovan Italian, partially in an attempt to monitor the genetics of my bees. At least while the colonies queen continues to exhibit the golden Cordovan trait, and her workers do too, then there is most likely no AHB blood in them. It is said that the Cordovan trait can be bred into any strain/race of honeybee, but my hope if this happens (Cordovan gets bred into AHB), that better traits are preserved -vs- any poor AHB traits (word is that few, if any, traits are tied to the Cordovan genes). Time will tell.

If I happen to create Cordovan AHB, then I hope, that they retain one good trait, that would be calmness, especially calmness on the combs.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

It's interesting that she didn't kill off the queen cells.....guess you got lucky in that respect. I haven't heard of EHB desplaying any take over traits, but it could be possible .


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Nest usurpation by AHB is pretty well documented:



> One means by which the AHB may supplant the EHB is through colony parasitism. Previous reports have shown that small AHB swarms, no bigger than the size of a softball, can cluster near the entrance of a colony. Over a few days, the workers in the swarm can overcome the defenses of the hive and usurp the resident queen, leaving the colony wide open for the AHB queen in the swarm to take over. Such a coup d’etat can change an EHB colony into an AHB colony literally overnight.
> 
> A recent study was published by UNC-Charlotte Professor Stanley Schneider and his collaborators in Arizona at the USDA Carl Hayden Honey Bee Research Facility that addresses this issue. They placed many five-frame nucleus hives in their bee yard, all headed by EHB cordovan queens, and they tracked the progress of these hives over the course of two years. They performed weekly or bi-weekly inspections of each colony and rated its strength (according to the amount of brood and number of adult bees) and queen status (thriving, weak, queenless, or superseded). They witnessed dozens of invading parasitic AHB swarms and the resultant usurpation of the EHB queen.
> 
> ...


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

i like the posters attitude about ahb. i had a similar swarm experiance last fall. i had just hived a small swarm and another one came out of the blue and joined into the same hive. i'd brought the first swarm in from eight miles away and the second swarm had a much darker queen than my stock. i thought it was odd so i posted the experiance on the "organic" beekeepers site. the knowledgable site host from arizona didn't mention ahb or think it was that strange of an occurance. after this experiance i read about ahb's invasion tactics. if i had read about it before this experiance i probably would have considered an ahb invasion as being likely. ehb do join with other colonys.


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Evening all,

I'm not looking forward to dealing with AHBs when and if they get to my apiary. But I am expecting it sooner or later. No more bare handed, headed or uncovered body parts anymore should that occur.

If I am correct, the USDA brought in several AHBs many, many, years ago and distributed them throughout the USA. The genetics appeared to be diluted as time went on.

I suppose that as time goes on and beeks squash the heads of over-aggresive queens, the relative aggression will subside.

As a precaution I have been, week by week, one hive at a time, moving my hives to the back of my property away from my home, the kids, and animals. I close the hive up at night, put it in deep shade, and move it 48 hours later. So they spend two whole nights and part of the next day locked up. That late afternoon I open it up, (an entrance about 3/4 inch high by an inch wide), and let them be. They don't seem to go back to the old hive location as far as I can tell.

I've been trying real hard to learn about queen breeding. I read every post and all the references I can find. I suppose a lot of us are probably thinking the same as I: Better be ready!

Regards,
Albert


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>ehb do join with other colonys.

Can you or anyone else substantiate this claim? It is a behavior that I've never heard associated with EHB.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

stangardener said:


> ehb do join with other colonys.


I have heard of ehb swarms co-mingling with other swarms. 

I haven't heard much if anything about an ehb swarm moving in and taking over a currently occupied hive queenless or not. I'm not going to say its impossible but given the location of of Joseph and the AHB propensity to invade weaker or disadvantaged (ie cell builder in this case) colonies I'd say its highly likely AHB.

I would prefer to assume AHB and be proven wrong in this scenario.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

*On the safe side*



George Fergusson said:


> >
> I'm glad you're cool with it Joe, I'd be sweating bullets


----------------------------------------------------------------

I'd pinch the invading queen and use one of those queen cells in the cell builder to replace her.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

George Fergusson said:


> >ehb do join with other colonys.
> 
> Can you or anyone else substantiate this claim? It is a behavior that I've never heard associated with EHB.


i won't try to substantiate anything but if you go to message numbers 28643 and 28753 of yahoos organicbeekeepers site you can read a description of a neat swarm experiance. message number 28782 is an answer to my question pertaining to whether a swarm would use an occupied hive. experiancing is beliveing


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

stangardener said:


> i won't try to substantiate anything but if you go to message numbers 28643 and 28753 of yahoos organicbeekeepers site you can read a description of a neat swarm experiance. message number 28782 is an answer to my question pertaining to whether a swarm would use an occupied hive. experiancing is beliveing


I used to subscribe to Organicbeekeepers. I signed off for a variety of reasons none of which I will elaborate on here. I am well aware of the list's attitude towards and opinions about AHB. I have nothing but respect and admiration for Dee, but she has categorically denied the practical existence of AHB in Arizone, let alone in any other state and the very likely presence of africanized genes in her colonies. It's a ludicrous assertion in my opinion- it's denying reality. I can understand and appreciate that she's a bit sensitive on the issue, perhaps even overly defensive 

That said, deluding ourselves is a God-given inalienable right and certainly, people keeping bees in areas with a feral population of africanized honey bees have little choice but to either quit beekeeping, or deal with the situation as best they can- requeening exceedingly hot hives, keeping smaller colonies, and generally practicing management practices associated with running potentially hot hives- isolation, etc. If people want to downplay the threat of AHB and their impact on beekeeping, fine, but don't be telling me that they "don't exist" and don't be telling me that EHB routinely go around usurping other EHB colonies- not without documented proof.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Well said George. 

And it's a lot easier to be objective with the snow blowing past the window...

p.s. and I agree with Bill, pinch her.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>ehb do join with other colonys.
>Can you or anyone else substantiate this claim? It is a behavior that I've never heard associated with EHB.

In the fall I've seen some weak nucs move next door as the weather gets bad. But that's the only time I've seen it. I've never seen a swarm move in and take over a hive.


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## Riki (Jan 31, 2007)

I might be wrong, but in that german video about queen rearing, they put excluders at the entrance of the quennless starters to prevent a foreign queen gaining access to the hive; I don't know if it could be the same as a swarm undertaking a hive...!!? 
Anyway, I think they are most likely to be AHB.


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## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

Cool story-very jealous also.


>If I happen to create Cordovan AHB, then I hope, that they retain one good trait, that would be calmness, especially calmness on the combs.

Something we can all hope for and without folks like you who are willing to give it a chance, how are we expected to learn in a reasonable time frame?

Leave no stone unturned i say.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Responses*



Dan Williamson said:


> Just saw a slideshow presentation from one of the bee labs back in Feb. It showed multiple AHB invasion swarms. One of the point being made was this:
> 
> They showed the swarms and then some small clusters after alot of bees had entered the hive..... These small clusters (some very small, some larger) still on the outside. They had taken these clusters and analyzed them... They found queens inside. The invasion swarms were protecting the queen and in some cases multiple queens in the event of defense by the initial colony.


That sounds quite like what I witnessed. After the swarm arrived and most had gone into the hive, a small cluster, about the size of a baseball, formed hanging off one end of the bottom board. It was sometime later that day that they finally entered the hive as well.



peggjam said:


> It's interesting that she didn't kill off the queen cells.....guess you got lucky in that respect. I haven't heard of EHB desplaying any take over traits, but it could be possible .


I believe this queen is a very young queen (still had a very fuzzy thorax), probably had her mating flight in route. Most likely needed a little more time to develop her queenly demeanor. I don't suppose any research has ever investigated this take-over trait among EHB, what would be the incentive? They aren't renowned for being extremely agressive towards humans, nor other EHB's.



BULLSEYE BILL said:


> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I'd pinch the invading queen and use one of those queen cells in the cell builder to replace her.


I like this idea, but I am a very curious guy. Though I don't wish to have a possibly bad mannered, full sized hive, I do want to see what this queen can do. I am going to install her in a styrofoam mating nuc to see how her colony develops and will give the former cell builder colony, that she had taken over, one of the Cordovan Italian queen cells they were producing.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Joseph Clemens said:


> I don't suppose any research has ever investigated this take-over trait among EHB, what would be the incentive? They aren't renowned for being extremely agressive towards humans, nor other EHB's.


For hundreds of years, thoughtful and observant people have been studying european honey bees. None to my knowledge has ever reported such hostile nest usurpation behavior as is routinely practiced by africanized honey bees. It's not that there's been no incentive to document a given behavior, it's that the given behavior doesn't exist.

Now lest you all think I'm being some kind of a jerk, let me assure you, I am. But I'm a practical jerk. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I figure it's probably a duck. If you want to call it a chicken, by all means go ahead, but don't expect me to go along peacefully if you try to make the assertion that "chickens quack" 

I personally think you folks keeping bees "down there" in AHB country are the front line troops and I respect you for that. Many of you seem to "pooh-pooh" the whole AHB thing and act like they're "not a problem". Well, I respect that. Us northern beeks on the other hand are the rear echelon folks, safe in our barracks but still quaking (quacking?) in our boots at the thought of AHB making it to our part of the country any time soon. The more you learn about how to live with AHB, the better off we're going to be. But don't bury your heads in the sand. It makes it hard to understand what you're saying


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

and don't be telling me that EHB routinely go around usurping other EHB colonies- not without documented proof.[/QUOTE]

i for one never said or believe that ehb routinely go around usurping other ehb colonies. from what i've gleaned i'd say it's rather uncommon. that's why i stepped up to share a similar neat experiance. 
i find it unfortunate i created an opening to bring up another beekeepers situation with ahb. that was a situation i tried to avoid by not naming anyone directly. oh well.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

George Fergusson said:


> For hundreds of years, thoughtful and observant people have been studying european honey bees. None to my knowledge has ever reported such hostile nest usurpation behavior as is routinely practiced by africanized honey bees. It's not that there's been no incentive to document a given behavior, it's that the given behavior doesn't exist.
> 
> Now lest you all think I'm being some kind of a jerk, let me assure you, I am. But I'm a practical jerk. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I figure it's probably a duck. If you want to call it a chicken, by all means go ahead, but don't expect me to go along peacefully if you try to make the assertion that "chickens quack"
> 
> I personally think you folks keeping bees "down there" in AHB country are the front line troops and I respect you for that. Many of you seem to "pooh-pooh" the whole AHB thing and act like they're "not a problem". Well, I respect that. Us northern beeks on the other hand are the rear echelon folks, safe in our barracks but still quaking (quacking?) in our boots at the thought of AHB making it to our part of the country any time soon. The more you learn about how to live with AHB, the better off we're going to be. But don't bury your heads in the sand. It makes it hard to understand what you're saying


George,
I do understand that honeybees and EHB's, in particular, have been under close scrutiny for quite a very long time, as have many creatures in the natural world - though it may be shrinking around us. However, in my own observations, I am frequently reminded that the plants and animals that share our world with us, don't seem to care much for the limitations we try to set for them. Much ado is made about their frequent wanderings outside these artificial boundaries we have fashioned for them. 

I do not have any doubt that Dr. Kerr (no relation to my wife, whose maiden name was also Kerr), around the time of my birth, intentionally or not, caused the release of a strain of _Apis mellifera_ with overwhelmingly aggressive genetics, and that their descendants have caused, and are still causing quite a stir.

I am familiar with a fellow beekeeper who spent many years in South Africa, keeping bees, and is now in California, still keeping bees. He mentions that in his experience there are several strains of the AHB that are actually well mannered. If AHB are as insidious as posts on this thread (and other threads) implies, we may have little choice but as to develop such well mannered strains of AHB for our own various reasons (especially obvious ones). It seems there are more good traits of AHB mentioned in various writings (_Varroa_ tolerance being among them), than that one overwhelmingly mentioned bad trait -- overly defensiveness. Certainly we are savvy enough about breeding and genetics, that we can accomplish this; create a less defensive AHB strain, while maintaining many of the characteristics that keep them so viable.


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## NC Beeman (Mar 7, 2007)

The only way to be sure of a queens heritage is to use marked queens.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Joseph Clemens said:


> If AHB are as insidious as posts on this thread (and other threads) implies, we may have little choice but as to develop such well mannered strains of AHB for our own various reasons (especially obvious ones). It seems there are more good traits of AHB mentioned in various writings (_Varroa_ tolerance being among them), than that one overwhelmingly mentioned bad trait -- overly defensiveness. Certainly we are savvy enough about breeding and genetics, that we can accomplish this; create a less defensive AHB strain, while maintaining many of the characteristics that keep them so viable.


Well spoken Joseph, thoughtful, and thought provoking. Thanks for taking the time to express those thoughts. It's what I wanted to hear. I've had it with denial. Maybe that was obvious? 

I've figured for some time that not all AHB are created equal and certainly they are not all equally defensive. The "classic" AHB everyone has been excited about do not seem to be good team players.

I also figure that there are some african genes in most all of our bees now, ever since the early 60's when the USDA imported African drones to Baton Rouge and started shipping instrumentally inseminated queens around the country for people to try out. Certainly, swarms escaped into the wild, adding african genetics to the feral population. In retrospect one might ask, what were they thinking? Or was it really all that bad an idea?

I've wondered what can make a hive go berserk all of a sudden- is it because of perhaps recessive african genes governing overt defensiveness finally asserting themselves? Why/how have the genetics of AHB maintained such purity on their migration north from Brazil- all the while interbreeding with european honey bees? Why are some AHB seemingly mild-mannered? I have lots of questions. I have few answers.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

In keeping with the idea that not all AHB are created equal, neither are all African honeybees. Africa has more strains than the rest of the world put together, and some of them are probably quite gentle. While the USDA has imported African breeding stock (on multiple occasions), I'm not sure that the imports were scuts. In fact, I thought that it was intermissa and an Egyptian bee, although I haven't been able to confirm this information. Also, I recently reread one of my Roger Morse books from the eighties and he states that AHB my *act* somewhat gentler in cooler climates.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>While the USDA has imported African breeding stock (on multiple occasions), I'm not sure that the imports were scuts. 

The USDA african stock came from Dr. W. E. Kerr, in Brazil, who at the time believed he had adonsonii.

http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/viciousbee.htm

Search the above page for "kerr".


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*I just can't imagine some of this talk*

Folks, I know you are all sincere, but there is a great deal written about the bee from Africa. There is not one strain. Dr. Kerr had more than 19 queens. If you doubt that, try maintaining stock with nineteen queens from 19 lines and spread then a few square miles. Some one in the early days suggested 1900 was a more likely number. Even the great Dr, Cale had problems with hundreds keeping Starline traits going.

That said, according to the USDA workers who worked with the bee, Steve Taber being primary, there was expressed a conviction that there is a variation in the American African strains. I belive this Arizona beekeeper perhaps keeps up on aggression well enough to halt a nasty line coming in, since he was requeening for that reason. If this colony is mean, from what he has stated, i think he will requeen. 

I was out of beekeeping for a long time, twenty years. In that twenty years there seems to be a great tendancy to pull out the largest hammer with every problem that roles down the pike. Forever pinching the heads of queens you have not observed is not a true way to see what you have, only a way to not have a chance to see. "KILL THEM ALL" is a chant, but in light of the experience and facts at hand, since there may well be a way to arrive at a workable African bee, useful in southern states, free of the problems of the nastier lines, when will there, where will there and who will there be to test, refine and provide a solution other than predicting the sky is falling with every new strain or mite that hits the landing board?

Europeanizing the Africans did not work, nor did it work on the Native Americans, it really is time to examine these problems with fresh eyes, not relying on second hand reports from media or scientific communities, but in the field by those head on facing this situation. Therefore Mr. Arizona Queen maker, i applaude you for following the first step, observation. 

Chrissy


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

*Ahb*

Ya know; this reminds me of all the problems you here from the media and American pitbull terriers. Every time a dog bites someone , any mutt gets labeled " Attack by a pitbull " . Any hot colony in the deep south is AHB ????


Man ,kinda seems too me some beekeepers are into self flagellation, and I will not get on the beekeeping spending treadmill, nor act like a giddy child at christmas, and spend 40$ in gas to chase down some swarm.


This is a public service annoucement to myself, good day


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>"KILL THEM ALL"

Neither I nor anyone else participating in this thread or in any thread here on Beesource about AHB that I recall reading recently has hauled out the "KILL THEM ALL" argument in any seriousness, not that it hasn't been suggested and even tried over the years. The last concerted stand against the AHB northward migration was the Panama Exclusion Zone or whatever they called it. They were going to stop them in their tracks in Central America. Didn't work. Surely, current USDA policy seems to be to trap and kill as many AHB swarms as possible without regard to their true lineage or possible adaptation to the American scene. But don't worry, they won't get them all.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Rabe, Michael J., Rosenstock, Steven S., Nielsen, David I. 2005: FERAL AFRICANIZED HONEY BEES (APIS MELLIFERA) IN SONORAN DESERT HABITATS OF SOUTHWESTERN ARIZONA. The Southwestern Naturalist: Vol. 50, No. 3, pp. 307311.

ABSTRACT

Africanized honeybees, hybrids between African (Apis mellifera scutellata) and western European (A. m. mellifera) and eastern European (A. m. caucasica, A. m. carnica, and A. m. ligustica) subspecies are widely distributed in urban areas of the southwestern USA. However, little is known about their distribution in rural regions. We collected bees at 54 sites in a 5,350-km2 study area in the Sonoran Desert of southwestern Arizona. We used mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) analysis of individual worker honeybees (10 per site) to assess genetics of colonies within the study area. Among collected bees, 86.9% possessed African mtDNA. Western European, eastern European, and Egyptian (A. m. lamarckii) mtDNA was present in 5.6%, 4.1%, and 3.4% of collected bees, respectively. There was no apparent relationship between the percentage of bees having African mtDNA and distance to agricultural fields or elevation of the collection site. The preponderance of Africanized honeybees confirms previous studies and predictions concerning their distribution in the southwestern USA.

Also, check this link out:

http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis94/apjul94.htm


Maybe they are not from the USDA, but lamarkii definitely got here somehow.


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*Lamarkii was part of Golden Italian bee lines*

There were a large number of middle eastern lines brought in around 1900. Many of these were crossed with Italians un an attempt to achive the infamous five banded Italian. Those genetics would have been favored in any attempts to keep a Golden line going. These five banded Italians were advertised in ABJ as late as the 1970s. That golden coloration is far more common in the norther African lines and Middle eastern lines than it ever has been in Italian bees proper. To breed for those colorations favors those breeds genetics, and they have been here a very long time, and no doubt some have added to that along the way to produce Golden Italians. Some lines of five banded Italians i have worked are indeed very nasty compared to typical Italian colonies--i suspect that is part of the cause.

Chrissy


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*George*

No George, i did not say you did, but i am speaking rather of the general attitude found in items regarding possible African line queens, mites and all the rest. It is an underlying attitiude that simply does not work against the vast array of problems faced by beekeepers. I am subject to it as well. I have pocket gophers and very few berry plants and trees left this winter. My first reaction iis too want to smash them into mulch, but there are more gophers than there are minutes in the day. I had to back up and realize that i may have to replant around five hundred trees with chicken wire around the roots and more around the above ground growth.

The same thing happens with yellowjackets up here, they are legend, nest every few yards in drought years. I can not afford enough spray to get them all and traps only work on certain species, two of my five up here. Sometimes, even with all the surveys, studies and all else that washes down the pike, it is wise to step back and do ones own research. The African bee is not the end of the world, it is simply a set of life circumstances seeking a solution. 

I am often asked to give reference. My thoughts on that are this; i have done my research, i am not placing a peer review paper out, i am not writing a thesis. I expect if anyone contests an idea, they will go do their own full spectrum research. Since 1990 i was aware that the African bee has variation in temperment and that is a strong signal that there is genetic potential for a calmer bee to be developed along the lines that Steve Taber recomended in his book, "Breeding Super Bees." Until those methods are tested exactly as Steve recomends, followed exactly, there is simply no real attempt to handle the African bee at all. For years it was illegal to even try. 

There was an idea in the USDA and no one would back off. The USDA could not address the problem after thirty years of ample opportunity. When i heard of the Panama Canal idea, i just shook my head. European swarms found it no problem to cross and the original theory was the water would stop them, adding European defense lines was a latter concept, also previoulsy shown to be non-viable, but trumpeted anyway as though repeating previous errors was a game of chance, roll the dice enough times and...

Sometimes it is best to lay the paperwork aside and step out among the bees and see what they actually are doing and then imagining how that might be useful overall. The idea of hanging on to that queen is simply an opportunity to see what is actually at hand. Research, ones own, is far more of practical value than every word ever written on our cherished subject of ongoing study. Anyone can find how something won't work, it takes a determined mind set to find the one way it does work. I think that idea applies overall to the African bee and many other current challenges we face as beekeepers. We too often seem inclined to demand that nature adapt rather than facing the fact that it is often far easier for us to adapt to the challenges in front of us. The answers can not be found if they are not sought.

Chrissy


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

George Fergusson said:


> >ehb do join with other colonys.
> 
> Can you or anyone else substantiate this claim? It is a behavior that I've never heard associated with EHB.


I have seen marked EHB attempt to take over a cell building colony. Caught her in the act.
JBJ


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

JBJ said:


> I have seen marked EHB attempt to take over a cell building colony. Caught her in the act.
> JBJ


Just what were the circumstances of this takeover attempt?


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Hey fellows,
I like what CS Shaw has to say.

The AHBs are here and we have to deal with them one way or another.

Of course not everyone, (and I dare say there might only be a handful on Beesource), have the time, knowledge, inclination, or even wherewithall, to study the situation in a scientific manner. That's the unfortunate truth of the matter.

I think that the only recourse many have is the "Squish the Head of the Offending Queen" method of dealing with the colonies.

If what CSShaw says is true (about Dee Lusby's opinion on AHBs in Arizona) then Aspera's post certainly disproves her ascertions. But her opinion might be more along the lines of : "I got em so I deal with em, Bees is Bees!" or something along those lines.

Anyway that part was unimportant. The direction we take is probably what we should be discussing. I know we have a few scientists with papers (Sheepskins not pedigrees!) on the forum, and several self-taught sages, maybe they might have some input as to what a good procedure for the rest of us to follow might be.

And as a couple of Y'all have said, there's hot, then there's HOT.

Anyway, looking forward to more discussion on the subject.

Regards,
Albert


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Thanks for the info Chrissy. It make sense that this would've happened before the importation ban. Do you know of any good sources where I can read more about this?


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*Hi Apsera*

There is a very old queen raising book from the thirties, it had a red color binding and i think it was the Alley book. It seems to me that this was the book that the five banded Italians were covered. Also there are archives in the old Gleanings and ABJ, that might give you a deeper set of facts. Those yellow bees were very popular and there was a belief that the more yellow bands, the better the white color was in the cappings, so they were popular with the comb honey crowd. 

My experience with these lines were they were far better at using for two-queen colonies than were the three banded Italians or Starline bees. It was a yard of Goldens, sourced from California, high in the Washington Cascades that i encountered a yard of hives errupt from the colonies when the truck drove up and the bees literally poured out of the hives like water out of a tipped bucket. There was a drought and everyone was at home. The other experience i had with the nastier type of this bee was a small single swarm that even with smoke would pour out if the cover was lifted and sting the back of the gloves. They had no respect for smoke. They were pretty, man were the pretty bees, but the bad lines were just not a type of bee to keep near humans.

I have seen Caucasians and crossed Italians and Carniolan lines get tight when the weather was foul, but this was ongoing with some of the goldens. I don't know how long you have kept bees, but the depression era beekeepers i kept bees with believed the meaner the bee, the more honey to be had. Gentle meant you were alive afterwards. I am happy to see that few tollerate lines that are fiercely foul, there really are no medals for beeing the most stung.

Chrissy


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Chrissy,

Those Washington bees, do you know if they were subject to any predation? Bears, or other honey lovin' mammals? Just kinda curious, I remember reading that AHBs were subject to more disturbances and therefore tended to be more aggressive.

Albert


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*Albert it was a rare drought*

Hi Albert,

It was a rare west of the Cascades drought, but the yard in question had no bears (i slept next to the buggers in a sleeping bag on the rocks that night) and in the morning the colonies fielded bees until the sun rose then shut down. Now mind you, all the yards in the area were under these conditions, but this yard of goldens (from a long ago gone Californian breeder) were just vicious. Though stirred up, five Carniolan colonies would allow typical manipulation. These also were in the yard.

It was a very close friend of mines bees, he always got bees from the same breeder, and they always were hot as some state, but this time they were HOT. They were no nicer overall in the raspberries next season, but at least they did not pour out. He used silver paint and i still can close my eyes and see all that yellow coming out of them. The old golden lines are not the same bee as the Cordovan line. 

I had Cordovan when i first heard of them in the eighties, there is an orange color, they drifted a great deal and i had some AFB in one or two. Those came out of the state of LA. I sold the yard that year so i don't knoow how they were other than they were about like any normal Italians. 

Chrissy


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Very interesting stuff. I'm going to see if I can find that book and any local keepers of these five banded bees. I'm definitely with you on not tolerating mean bees. I have no desire to use gloves or a suit. thank you very much.


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*I am thinking*

Aspera,

I am thinking the five bandeds were most popular in the twenties and thirties up to early sixties, but the place where you might find that information would be in Gleanings In Bee Culture or American Bee Journal in the archives. You might want to dierect a question to either Editors, they are very up on what is in their archives and perhaps the most well read beekeepers on earth.

Chrissy


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Morning Everyone!

This conversation got me thinking about breeding in general, and how so few actually breed to any set of standards.

I wonder why that is? I don't do the AI/II thing, nor do I purposefuly raise a dozen queens to requeen, but I do allow them to raise their own queens from selected eggs and larvae from a couple of good hives I have. These queens raise docile girls, don't propolize, and have good production. One also caps honey with a very light white wax. (I caught my youngest son, Bowie knife in hand, raiding the hive for some comb to chew on a few days ago!) Anyway The splits I've made this season are from those hives.

I have two hives that propolize like crazy, so as soon as I feel comfortable with the process I will pull those queens and put in the appropriate frames of larvae. I'll put their eggs and larvae in another hive to be raised as workers.

I think that everyone who has a hive or two that meet their expectations of what a colony should be like, ought to raise queens from those hives, and bite the production bullet for the month. Of course if you time it right with brood expansion and swarm preparation, you might not miss much of the productive cycle. Not only will the new colonies be what a beek envisions, but you will also raise to your geographic/climatic conditions.

Regards,
Albert


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*Having a broad base*

The problem as i see it is this...we have a number of commercial breeders who supply a large number of queens from a limited genetic base. If one narrows that base and the feral population drops as in the initial mite phase, then you have a very narrow genetic base to work from. What can happen over time is a lack of viable eggs being produced from your queens. Steve Tabers book gives this in some detail. I actually once had a carnolian queen who made workers that would not gather nectar other than what was needed and instead gathered and stored pollen only. That was a result of open mating in an area where there should have been ample drones not related to this queen at mating. 

The remedy is to assure a good saturation of non-related drones when mating. Genetics can be like a ball of yarn, if you tug here a knot forms and you tug there and another not forms. Nothing one does in breeding selection is isolated, each part will effect another in one way or another. It is by keeping tight records over time that one can see an effect and then only in the records at first usually. Egg viablity of 90 plus percent is important and if it falls under that you nootice very fast. Anything that reduces the amount of hatch, effects brood and today with mites damaging a certain amount of brood, diseases another, the grand total can be very high. 

Chrissy


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Chrissy,

I do remember reading about that (the viability issue) in a tract on bee genetics. It has occured to me, but owing to the queens propensity to travel further than the drones, I thought that I might avoid the brood viability issue except in cases of an incompatible drone or drones. And that would just be a coincidental roll of the mating dice.

I agree that the large scale breeders might tend towards a limited genetic base that fulfills their needs rather than the end users. But be that as it may, my temperment is such that I would rather do it by myself anyway.

I keep records, mediocre at best in my opinion, as I am still learning what it is that I am looking for. But I tend to record inoccuous things along with the obvious: When the Robins showed up, which plants are in bloom, what other bugs are around, who came to dinner, etc. So far nothing has jumped out at me, but I figure sooner or later I'll see something that correlates with something seemingly unrelated.

You sound like you know what you're about, so if I may, I will pose a question to you; in your opinion, what should the small scale beekeeper (100 hives or less I guess is as good a break point as any) do in terms of maintaining the genetic health, viability, and diversity of his colonies? Might as well throw in productivity while we are at it. 

I'm all for regional breeding myself. An acclimated bee is a happy bee. (I think...) But managment also plays a key roll in production.

Anyway curious as to your opinion and comments.

Regards,
Albert


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*I don't know your neck of the woods*

Hi there Albert,

What can happen is this, a few beekeepers buy some queens. Maybe they have talked, one has been using brand X and pretty soon everyone has a few brand X and then a few swarms come out and establish a feral population. One always hope that the original producer is watching what they are doing. But lets say that for one reason or another the big breeder is at the line with genetics. As a few years pass the local genetics of the drone areas your queens mate in narrows enough to show up in certain areas of end result. 

Now of you have a great many beekeepers around and everyone has their favorite line and some are different, then there is no fear overall save chance, but if the field base is narrow to start with, then there can come trouble. 

The bad part is if a good trait is reduced, hygene, and foul brood establishes in a feral population. Then a whole area can become foulbrood prone. Feral colonies die from the disease, new bees swarm in, make a little honey and then disease wipes them out and your bee rob in the fall. I have know of such an area over in the west side of this state. Also, at one time the Lower Rio Grande valley in Texas was a place where foulbrood was heavy in feral populations. 

Those are just some ways that can limit developing a well developed local bee. The genetics need to be broad to begin with, loaded with drone populations that can carry the traits you are after. Almost all breeds of bees have a rough set of good traits, honing those takes decades. In genetics one thing gained is another lessened. The good part of that, is this is a lifelong love for many of us. I spent twenty years away from active beekeeping, but a few days were in all that where i was not thinking about what i knew from the twenty years active before that. 

Some folks are lucky enough to be in an area where natural pressures have left a fine drone population currently. Can those last? It depends on how many lines those "survivors" came from. To some degree, in most places where bees can be kept, there is yearly additions to the gene pool and this can add or subtract, depending on the interaction of those genetics already in an area.

It is indeed rewarding to raise one's own queens. It is worth the effort to read every thing you can, ask those like Michael B, who have success, as to their take. Ask a good number and then try out some things you pick up and test your results. There is nothing so satisfying as a full, wall to wall frame of sealed brood from a queen one raises themselves. The long haul with queens is a lifelong study. 

Chrissy


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Well said Chrissy, well said.

Regards,
Albert


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

George Fergusson said:


> Just what were the circumstances of this takeover attempt?


I had a cell builder that developed a rogue queen that was behind and an excluder. I went to dispatch her one afternoon and found a marked queen from one of my mating nucs being balled by bees loyal to the rogue queen. I am 100% sure it was a queen I had marked in a mating nuc about a week before. I have seen several times absconding swarms from small mating nucs head straight towards queenless cell builders. I now use excluders between all three boxes in the cell builder units.
John


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I'll differ a bit with some of the opinions in this thread. 

A queen with known genetics is ALWAYS preferable to one that is unknown.

If you are using queens with unknown genetics, you are doing experimental work, it is not founded in solid and practical beekeeping for production purposes.

It is perfectly feasible to take a group of colonies with unknown genetics and select the best ones to produce queens. In a generation, you have known genetics.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>A queen with known genetics is ALWAYS preferable to one that is unknown.

A queen of known poor genetics is not preferable to one that is unknown.

If unknown genetics means I don't know where they came from, then I'd have to disagree completely. I don't care where they came from, I care what they are.

If unknown genetics means I have no idea what traits they have, I still might find they have traits I want and I don't have in the queen of known genetics.


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*Regarding unknown genetics*

If one is in a situation as am i, unkown genetics could be a problem. Feral colonies are minimal here, so there is a risk one colony would provide all my drones--F2 would be a sad state. However, since genetics is not a rock, when they are combined F1s can be much enhanced as to traits. There is no such thing as unknown genetics in truth, there are simply different combinations, so, if the egg viability is high in out breeding to a local population with ones queen stocks and there is an increase in desired traits, then it stands to full reason that there is a population of feral or unkowns in ones mating area that are useful. 

One does not test breeders for production. Breeders are from tested lines. A breeder may not be a superior queen, many of the Starline and Midnight queens were at the limit of line-breeding when their daughters were outcrossed to produce very high quality queens. 

One falacy in breeding often done in commercial operations in search for breeding stock, is to breed from the highest producing colonies. Anyone who has two-queened a bit can understand that some of these supposed super colonies are in fact supercedures in process. Just because you do not see a second queen does not mean she is not there. Brood frame counts that exceed a single queens ability to lay over a given period is the only way to know. Breeding from the best producers is not a sure way to reach a production goal.

All that said, the search for breeding stock is best done anywhere there exists potential lines to use in such a program. Since a broad genetic base has the most potential initially and is the surest way to insure egg hatch rates that are high, there is ample reason to seek out unrelated lines and include them in a program. These days breeding for pure breed is of less overall value than is breeding towards bees that have ample tools to first survive and then prosper--in that order. Some of those traits are in bees i have not met yet.

Chrissy


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Queens and pheromones*

The mini mating nuc where I installed the queen that began this thread has about a cup of young bees, most were shaken from my Cordovan Italian colony. They have been very inspired by this mystery queen - they drew 3 mini frames of small cell wax foundation into perfect small cell combs and filled them with pollen and honey. Two other frames were given to them as sealed combs of honey. I was mystified by the lack of eggs, until I located the queen crawling around on the bottom of the hive. Apparently she was injured somehow and does not seem to be able to walk normally, lay eggs, or even mount the comb.

So I caged her and set her aside, then mounted a sealed queen cell into one of the combs. Minutes later all the bees in that nuc absconded and were out of sight in less than a minute, during this time 30-40 clustered on her in the cage (which was setting on top of another nuc), and remained with her. So I returned her, in the cage, to the nuc. In about 5 minutes those that had left, returned and again joined her in the mini nuc. I hope the bees permit this queen cell to hatch so I can get a healthy mated queen in place of this mysterious and damaged queen.

I have gained new respect for the influence a queen can have on groups of worker bees.


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## buz (Dec 8, 2005)

*tell jerry*

Hi Joseph. Jerry Seinfeld needs to know--his bee movie is going to have the worst effect on popular knowledge regarding honeybee colonies. I am sure the psychic power of the queen holds everything together.

Those colonies I got from you at Easter are buzzn right along. Thnx.
Tom


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