# AFB Questions



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Is there any data on how high a temperature must be to "kill" AFB spores? For example could infected or suspect equipment be placed in a kiln and baked for x amount of hours?

If AFB is so virulent....... Can beeswax foundation carry spores?

Thanks


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

"Resistance of Bacillus larvae in beeswax"
M. Machova
Apidologie 1993, 24: 1, 25-31

"...AFB in...beeswax was studied by exposing the
wax to a temperature of 150°C and testing the
viability of the spores at intervals. The number
of viable spores in the wax decreased with time;
initial concentrations in 2 samples of wax of
3x10^5 and 3x10^8 viable spores/g wax decreased
to 0 after 20 and 60 min, respectively (although
such heating would cause physical and chemical
changes in beeswax)..."

So, while you can use heat alone, you end up
with "cooked" wax, not that the bees will mind.
It still makes fine foundation.

Problem is, heating large volumes of wax is
a great way to burn down the house, so be
careful, and use a double-boiler.


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## David Stewart (Jan 22, 2005)

Jim,
I noticed the reference lists 150 dgree C as the test data. Since that is up around 300 Degree F, I would think that's pretty close to the point of no return and the wax would ignite rather than simply melt. If it doesn't go "poof" at 300....It is getting pretty smoky I figure. What say you candle makers? 

David


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I was primarily interested in the heat required to eliminate viable spores in woodenware. If placeing affected items in a kiln would sterilize them for use I would think this would be interesting. 

The wax question was more out of curiosity. It seems that wax foundation is a vector that would transmit spores easily.

Has anyone tested commercially sold foundation for spore counts?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Steam is the way to get wax to 300 degrees F and not start a fire. Unfortunately that is an expensive setup.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Since that is up around 300 Degree F, I would 
> think that's pretty close to the point of no 
> return and the wax would ignite rather than 
> simply melt.

Hence my warnings!









Double boilers are your friend. Not messing
with wax in the kitchen assures a happy
marriage and a house that is not a smoking ruin.


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

To kill all viable spores requires heat and time.
160 degrees celsius for 10 minuets is the correct answer for those who will be attending the course I will be running this Saturday in New Zealand for those wishing to pass their test to become approved bee keepers under their DECA (disease elimination and conformity agreement) Agreement.Steam chests are not an approved method of sterilization in New Zealand.Those who wish to read more on this may find suppliers of this booklet published on the net.Elimination of American foulbrood without the use of drugs.A practical manual for beekeepers by Mark Goodwin and Cliff Van Eaton.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> 160 degrees celsius for 10 minuets is the correct 
> answer for those who will be attending the course 
> I will be running...

While Mr. Van Eaton's work did show effective
control (or at least encapsulation) of AFB
infected WOODENWARE when it was immersed in wax
for 10 minutes at 160 degrees C, I think you
need to ask Mr. Van Eaton about the validity of
applying that finding to the very different case
of sterilizing wax, especially larger quantities of
wax.

I don't recall any specific finding in that
paper that addressed wax itself.

The paper in my notes was "Control of American 
Foulbrood in New Zealand Without the Use of 
Drugs", Proceedings of the 36th Apimondia
Congress, pp. 51-52, September, 1999.

All the other papers on the subject that I
have read have found viable spores in the
wax after heating wax for even longer than
10 mins at 150/160 C.

...and let's get real - temperatures like
150 C or 160 C are not "practical" for any
but the best-equipped operation. Any "practical 
manual for beekeepers" should stress the risks
of heating wax to temperatures that high in
anything but a double-boiler or a steam-jacketed
rendering tank.

The state of WV has a trailer-mounted autoclave,
so WV beekeepers have access to a true practical
tool that can safely attain the temperatures
required.


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

Jim
I should have made it clear that when we sterilize infected woodenware at 160 degees celsius for 10 mins that we are using paraffin wax with a flash point of 199 degrees celsius.The book does stress caution and safety procedures at these temperatures which is well covered also at our courses.A beekeeper in our country can not use this method as of right.It has to be written into the beekeepers DECA and approved by the Pest Management Agency before use.I did not want anyone to think that we heat beeswax to these temperatures.(Frames and wax from AFB hives are burnt)


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanks Bob and all........ 

I would definatly burn the frames and foundation infected.

But the idea of being able to salvage the bodies, tops, and bottoms is important. Especially when the numbers could be substantial.

Large ovens and kilns are fairly common and may be relativly inexpensive to take say 200 hive bodies in and "kiln" them at the 160C (or higher) for an hour.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

On wax..........

Are the present comercial suppliers of wax foundation taking any measures to treat their wax?

Are there any studies on commercially available wax foundation and spores??


Thanks


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## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

West Virginia Univ. has a mobile autoclave that they allow people to "rent". They normally have a few days a year that folks can get woodenware sterilized. It's a big honking pressure cooker that for sure!


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

Bob, I've ben looking for a US source for that book but I haven't found one.Better Bee used to carry it but no more.Any suggestions?


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Here is a New Zealand link for the book. $10.00 US

http://www.beekeeping.com/new/books/afb_nz.htm


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## artic (Feb 18, 2005)

In regards to cleansing smaller amounts of wax would it be viable to use a pressure cooker? 
Water could be used in the cooker alongside the wax and allowed to separate once the wax cooled. I would imagine that the high-pressure water vapor taking the place of other gasses would prevent flare-up and high temperatures could be easily achieved and controlled in this small environment.


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

NEW METHOD FOR AMERICAN FOULBROOD DISEASE CONTROL

http://www.caspianapiaries.com/info/78new.pdf


Terry


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Interesting article Terry...... Is this product commercially available? Or is it made up by the individual?


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> NEW METHOD FOR AMERICAN FOULBROOD DISEASE CONTROL
> http://www.caspianapiaries.com/info/78new.pdf

That sound you are hearing is the Snake-Oil alarm.
(For the hearing-impaired, the symbol is  )

What bothers me about the paper is this line:

"Colonies fed with Caspian Solution, without
antibiotics, clean infections and scale."

One just does not make such a statement
without first providing some data about how the
substance did in a petri dish against a cultured
AFB patch. The usual discussion compares
"exclusion zones", a "dead zone" around a
tiny amount of the substance placed in the
center of the dish. One can compare "exclusion
zones", and calculate the relative efficacy
of one antibiotic against another.

I'm perfectly willing to accept their claims
in regard to using this "Caspian Solution" as
a carrier medium for actual antibiotics of
known potency. What they are saying is that
mixing medications in with feed is a good
way to deliver the dose, which is well-known.

The "Incidental Benefits" claimed also don't
appear to be backed up by any of the standard
tests one would use to verify such claims.
(The emergency klaxon is also sounding, indicating
that hip-waders are required for first responders
to be able to continue to slog through the paper.)

As all of the standard tests would be easier
and cheaper than "field trials" in hives, I'm
going to guess that standard tests have not been
done. This really bothers me, as one needs to
show a "mechanism" at work in direct contact
with the AFB spores and "vegetative matter"
before making claims about how it might have
"cured" something as hard to examine as a beehive.

I'm not stating that "it does not work".
I'm only saying that the paper would not survive
30 seconds of peer review, and the claims made
are not backed up by anything that might be called "Science".

...and somehow "The Caspian Solution" sounds
like the name of a very bad 1960s cold-war spy
novel made into a movie starring Patrick
McGoohan, Rock Hudson, and Ernest Borgnine...


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## TheCrazyBeeMan (Oct 8, 2004)

On the Caspian Apiaries from what I understand he traded his healthy colonies with no AFB for colonies with AFB and treated them and made them healthy so that he could prove him self to other beekeepers in our area. That was the story I have been told by others that I trust and have used the product. On this it seems to be a lot like Small Cell if you are using it and your bees are healthy and thriving and those other beekeepers bees and dieing using old large comb than I dont really need to have tests to prove what I can see for myself. In the end the only thing that matters is the success of the bees. I do believe it works and is a lot better than burning the colonies. In the end I look at his success as a beekeeper to determine his credibility and he seems to be doing very well compared to others in the area. Hopefully my colonies will never get AFB but if they do I will try it out and give some results from my own experience.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I wish I could know who knows who, who is promoting what, and who has vested interests in one thing or another.


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## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

Sounds like poo to me. It does bring to light a good point in the a strong hive will no exhibit symptoms of AFB even though the spores are present. It seems to me that is all that article was trying to accomplish.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I wish I could know who knows who, who is 
> promoting what, and who has vested interests 
> in one thing or another.

In this case "Caspain Apiaries" appears to
be the sole vendor of the "Caspain Solution".

http://www.caspianapiaries.com/products.htm


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

Husaine showed me his hives a couple of years ago. I have seen frames with pearfectly healthy brood on one side and the other side with out brood but full of viable scale.

Caspian Soulution as I like to say "miracle juice" simulates the queen to lay eggs. I don't know what is in it for sure but it does contain a lot of royal jelly. If there is not enough pollen available for the bees to use there is no benefit to feeding caspian solution.

Husaine also claimes to have a bacterial phage which destroys the AFB bacteria. This is probably what is taking care of his AFB. He told me that he only used it one year in his solution because he is worried about someone growing this phage and benifiting from his reasearch.

Caspian Solution is desinged to make the bees more hygenic and nurse like. 

I imagine that most of you have already read his essays on his website by now. So I do not have to repeat him.

I have used it 3 years in a row I can not honestly say if the stuf works. It is realy sensitive to breaking down and needs to stay frozen till it is used. I was not to careful enough to store it propely and have ruined some of it.

am I using it this year NO we are just feeding pollen patties with 35% pollen, sugar, and honey soy we find that this workes just as well.


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Terry Gr; Thank you

Terry


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

>"I have used it 3 years in a row I can not honestly say if the stuf works. >

That statement does not encourage me to check this out and lends creedance to the "snake oil" analogy.

If I use something for 3 years it dam well better show results that I can quantify.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Husaine also claimes to have a bacterial phage 
> which destroys the AFB bacteria.

> ...he is worried about someone growing this 
> phage and benifiting from his reasearch.

If he even suspects that he MIGHT have somehow
stumbled across a better solution to the AFB
problem, and he is sitting on it due to selfish
greed, what sort of a person does this make him?

There are lots of ways to "protect" one's
discovery, and insure an adequate income stream,
and none of them involve keeping the whole matter
a deep dark secret, yet at the same time hinting
to all and sundry that one has found "the solution".

The snake-oil alarm, the hip-waders-required
alarm, AND the carnival midway huckster alarm
are ringing in three-part harmony.


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

I agree about the snake oil alarm. 

He is a very smart guy and freely gives advise. His bigest problem is the language barrier. 

He always talks about nourishment and how a porperly nouished hive is a healthy hive.

I agree that a healthy hive is capable of taking care of disease issues. Where as a weak hive shows all different kinds of diseases.

I respect this beekeeper and what he talks about. 

Even if he did stumble across a better solution to the AFB problem. He does not have the resources for patents and such and is smart enough not to give it away. If a company such as pheta or Bayer got hold of it imagine how much we would pay for it, if they ever were to market it. 

Bacterial phages are an extremely old science. there was a lot of reaserch done in this area before Anitbiotics were invented in the early 1900's. Mayby we need to pursue these old sciences and see if there is anything useful for us to use.


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

I just found this link about phages check it out

http://www.phages.org/PhageInfo.html


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

It's not impossible to have a colony which can deal with advanced AFB; they've been recorded in the UK, and, I think, in the States. Maybe he just has very hygeinic bees.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Robert:

His bees are somewhat hygenic. He makes no claims about that. However when Caspian solution is fed to hives,any hives, the bees will engage in hygenic behavior. Bees that are in a nutritionally good state engage in that behavior. That is why the liquid nitrogen test is repeated at least twice during the season when selecting breeders. This way false positives can be eliminated.

After feeding Caspian solution,I've seen the bees chew down AFB scale and then rebuild the comb. Next generation of bees are clean. So no one is mislead, antibiotics are used in the solution although dosages are lower than conventional wisdom. Sometimes as pointed out by Terry Gr, bacteriophages are used.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Terry Gr.

I forgot to ask how is the oxalic fogger coming along? Has Josh Cowan started looking at design improvements, so on...? I'd sure like to get myself such a rig. I do not think the money you spoke of before would be objectionable. Need any nucs?


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

That is why the liquid nitrogen test 

http://msa.ars.usda.gov/la/btn/hbb/Hygienic/hygienic.htm

Terry


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

Josh Cowen called me this week. They are working on a prototype He has some different ideas. The issue is the corrosive properties of liquid OA, also metering. He has some Ideas and I am sure that he will have something available for the fall


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Good for him. I look forward to it. Have you obtained good results with your rig. Did you have or take the opportunity to monitor your varroa mite levels, pre and post treatment?

Jean-Marc


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

I am not a research scientist. Just a beekeeper. Our Provincial Apiculturist stopped by the farm to see what I was doing with OA. He picked up one of my prototype evaporators with the intention of playing with it. I put in sticky boards but am not faithful to pull and check them. so my reasearch is more than likly not very good. Medhat Nasr on the other hand is a respected scientist and will do a respectable job. 

Since all the studies done on OA is very positive in the control of Varroa mites, The evaporator just has to do a good job of evaporating the stuf and blowing it into the hive in a fast and efficient manner


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I'm feeling kinda anxious about the varroa situation in the Fraser Valley. Coumaphos has been used for 3 seasons in the area, so I expect that we will not get a good treatment for the fourth season. Florida, California only got 3 years out of the product so I do not expect to do better than them. Canadian and American bees meet at the border in late May until 3rd week of June on the raspberries. Someone keeps forgetting to tell the bees there is an international border there (that or they do not listen). So I expect some further varroa problems, and your OA prototype looks mighty fine to me.

Jean-Marc


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

I'll make sure you get something to use this fall.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Thank you, I'm very grateful for your efforts.

Jean-Marc


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