# Frustrated with VSH and looking for suggestions



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I saw similar results using some Glenn VSH queens in 2005-7. Impressive in Generation One, with declining effectiveness on supersedure or splitting. Randy Oliver tells a story about grafting off a Glenn super-queen (his best queen mother ever), but losing the traits in the F2 generation.

In orchard and vegetable production, the cost of scion or hybrid seed is an absorbed input, offset by the harvest yield. Queen buying is not a treadmill -- it is outsourcing for the special conditions, an activity that is impossible in a production apiary.

At $20 per queen, simply sell a single nuc or starter hive ($150-250) and pay for all your queen purchases. For all the effort required to have a real queen breeding facility (not the DIY fairy-tale stories), $20 is cheap beyond belief. A queen breeding program with rotating out-groups and aggressive culling, Instrumental backcrossing, and all the bells and whistles needed to produce (and test) breeder queens is not a backyard endeavor.

Genetically fragile queens (Spivak identifies 20 loci responsible for VSH) are only going to be successfully maintained in an isolated and controlled breeding program. 

If Spivak is correct and VSH is coded by 20 independent gene loci, the Mendelian expression ratio of a pure VSH type is 0.5^20 === 1 in 1 million 48 thousand five hundred seventy six crosses (1/1,048,576) will show the same genetic makeup. Add 15 or so fathers, and the chance that generation two of the hive super-organism will behave the same way the generation one does become roughly equivalent to 1 to the number of sand grains in the universe.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Ho boy! If you are right about this, then things are worse than I thought! If the only way to maintain VSH genetics is to use purchased queens, then I lose my ability to control/develop/improve ANYTHING simply because I am no longer controlling the queens!

I have, for all the 20+ years I've been at this, consistently evaluated every hive and used the genetics from the best ones to improve the worst ones. Periodically I added fresh genetics to the mix, too. What this gave me was consistent improvement in my stock--ie lots of brood, lots of bees, lots of honey, few to no problems (except with mites and SHB--and the SHBs were the bigger problem!). But if I am always using outside queens, I lose all control of the whole process. The only improvements will be IF the *breeder*'s stock improves. That is not at all what I was expecting from VSH.

I thought I could start with VSH stock, breed as usual, refresh the genes with frequent infusions of new queens and still improve my stock while increasing the VSH quantities as I went along. But what happened this year is that my best and 3rd best hives requeened themselves and their quality DECLINED! Now what am I supposed to breed from or improve with now that I've lost all the good qualities I expected to be in the next generation of my best hives?!? I have this terrible sinking feeling that I have just wasted 2 full seasons while I set my hives WAY back instead of improving them.

How could I have gone so wrong?


Rusty


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Rusty,

I came to the conclusion that there is no silver bullet when it comes to mite tolerant, honey production and temperment. I have re-queened most of my hives with Aurea cordovan queens. I still have a coupe of hives with local feral queens. My cordovan queens lay a lot of brood which results in a lot of bees which make a lot of honey. They are also great to work. 

My feral queens lay a lot of brood, make a lot of honey, don't seem to be hurt by mites much and, when at full size-15+ frames of brood, are more than happy to do what it takes to protect their colony. The only way I can tolerate them is too keep them split so they don't get too big. They still make honey. It is only a matter of time until they are re-queened to the cordovans.

Since I want to harvest some honey I have started to look for productive queens and will deal with the mites as I have to.

Tom


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

A lot of people like them but I do not requeen on a schedule and have not had good crops or particularly great winter survival. I have requeened with mostly strains that survive mites for other reasons such as grooming. I am also looking for longevity in my queens. I think I am heading in the right direction and VSH is not a part of it.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> I saw similar results using some Glenn VSH queens in 2005-7. Impressive in Generation One, with declining effectiveness on supersedure or splitting. Randy Oliver tells a story about grafting off a Glenn super-queen (his best queen mother ever), but losing the traits in the F2 generation.


I saw very mixed results with my VSH in F1. Later crossings with my own resistant bees have made them better produces, and because I made heavy selection in F1 I´m quite pleased. They sting sometimes like hell, in this respective they differ from my own stock. But to keep variation as big as possible VSH crossings will be bred in future too. 

I CAN imagine that crossing VSH with totally non -resistant bees would could make them worthless in all respects.

When the first Primorsky bees came to Europe, one breeder said that he had never seen so ununiformed bees (mixed colours, mixed traits). Maybe it is the same with VSH, it is not a finished product. Lots of breeding work.


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## OneEyedRooster (Nov 10, 2012)

I've used VSH queens from a few different breeders and have had mixed results. Most have been fairly gentle but have not produced near the honey crop as others and they seem slow to build up in numbers. Mite levels have varied as well.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Since this is the time of year that I plan for next year, I think I am going to start planning to replace unproductive queens with Cordovan queens and go back to treating. Currently I use OAD once a year. Maybe it is time to investigate OAV.

Thanks for all the input!



Rusty


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Rusty, I feel your pain. We tried a II VSH breeder queen this year, we'll see how that VSH trait works in subsequent generations. So far, by the F-4, they are not as gentle as the breeder's bees, but I'm still in the crap shoot.



Vance G said:


> ...I have requeened with mostly strains that survive mites for other reasons such as grooming....


Vance, do you mean the allogrooming genes (like Carpenter Apiaries sells)? The trait that produces bees tending to chew mites is supposed to be dominant. I have one of those queens in my beeyard now, will put a drone frame in that one and let them make a lot of drones.

FWIW: If you live in the South, you can't do better than the BWeaver bees for mites and honey crop. I've had some defensive bees and some fairly mild bees from their queens. Plus, F-2 through F-6 BWeaver queens have produced well for me with open mating in my neighborhood -but mite loads have crept to 7% in the second and third years while making 7-11 gallons of honey per hive. I'll take it, and treat with OAV in rotation with other soft treatments until the dust settles. 

Also cut some bees out of a house that are very prolific and the gentlest bees I've ever seen. Still looking for that 'perfect' queen hiding in my neighborhood that can make gentle bees, produce honey and still have low mite counts.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Yes Mr. Burou one of my suppliers is Bill Carpenter. His mite biters seem to handle mites and they have wintered well for me, but I go to quite an extent to make sure my bees winter. I just contacted him to see if he will be around again next year. He is semi retired and who knows how long he will continue.

I got stock from another breeder working on producing mite resistant queens and I suspect his stock is at least part Russian. Some of the F1 and F2 crosses are mean as my bees ever gets before they are pinched. I have an isolated yard where I am stirring this all together and not treating for mites. No sign of DWV or mite stress although there are mites in all hives. I do a little drone culling and they all get brood breaks but I have not needed to treat for over two years now. Maybe spring will find me a sad boy I didn't, but I don't think so.

In the seventies a well established breeder down south< I believe in Mississippi, went broke because he had worked some African blood into his queens and they didn't winter well. I had ordered 25 of them and not a single colony made the winter. For the same reason I wonder if Weaver Bees would work for me up here in the cold.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Vance, once in a while the daughter of a BWeaver queen is gray with faint stripes. My guess is that they are mixing some caucasian or carniolan genes with their stock. They stop laying in heat and a dearth. Winter with smallish clusters, are stingy with stores and build up early and run smaller brood nests over time. They do supersede quickly too. 

Don't know if BWeaver bees will survive in your area. Great FAlls can get cold and stay cold (stationed there 1971-75). Question: Do your bees have cleansing flights during chinook winds?


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## cblakely (Sep 6, 2013)

I am still trying to figure out what works best for me in Idaho as well. 2nd year and still no honey. I had heavily feed this fall to get them with enough stores to overwinter. I think they may have enough now.

I was trying to be treatment free. That was ok the the first year. I broke down and put some Apivar on this year. Just pulled the strips out yesterday. Hope I do not have to do it again next, as I still like the idea of treatment free. Just don't want to loose all of my bees to an idea.

I have been toying with the idea of bweaver, but I cannot have an aggressive hive. I live in a small town that is trying to figure out its bee ordinance. Over wintering is a big issue.

I have also been toying with the idea of the Aurea's, but the price is way out of reach to buy the II Queens and the open breed queens that I have found are in the Southern states, so I wonder if they will handle the winter.

I have a pretty good mix now, I will probably just see how they do next year when they have had a chance to mature. If I see some stars emerge next year, I will probably make a few extra queens from them and let the duds go.

I know, no silver bullet, but I am interested in what more suggestions there may be.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Aurea cordovan queens? Never heard of it until now. Thanks for sharing.
And Vance has good infos as well.

Rusty, I would like to say first to get the right stock both for mite and disease resistance. Then evaluate them over
the 4 seasons and take notes on each colony's development. Graft from the good mother and flood the area with her
good drone genetics. If there is a chance of the inferior drones area that your queens mated with then the whole system is over.
Many of the good traits may be lost. Beekeeping is a constant selection and reevaluation game plan. Hope you find some gentle
mite and disease resistant stocks to start all over again on all the good equipments you still have available. Let me know if you
like to have a list of bee farms to decide on.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I've been breeding VSH queens for about 7 years. My experience with Glenn pure VSH was poor (at best). Some of the F1 daughters could barely support themselves. Lots of time and energy was wasted in that endeavor. However, their Pol-Line bees were far superior - great bees. Since Glenn closed shop, I think the community has been scrambling to come up with a reasonable source of mite resistant breeder queens. I suspect that much of the stock being sold as VSH has not been well vetted by an experienced bee breeder, which then leaves their customers disappointed and frustrated. I suspect that part of this is why Rusty is so disillusioned. 

All this being said, I am still a believer that VSH bees can perform, both in terms of mite resistance and honey production. This is my second year working with VSH material from the USDA and I can say with certainty that there are F1 crosses that can be great honey producers and maintain very low levels of varroa. I should say that I perform II using USDA VSH semen. I maintain a high density of diverse VSH colonies to improve the odds that my open mated queens are mating with desirable drones. I do maintain a few colonies of good Italian bees just as a benchmark to gauge the VSH against, as well as to provide a constant source of pressure from varroa  No question that Italian bees are huge brood factories. Of course, that's both good and bad. I will admit that working a colony of Italian bees is a pleasure, both in their productivity and gentleness, but these bees are not at all mite resistant. In simple terms, brood factory = mite factory. If you want Italian bees then you will definitely need to treat - no question. The best of my F1 VSH queens produce nearly as good as my Italian bees. On average Italian bees will likely produce more than VSH, but there have been advances in VSH stock that have dramatically improved the brood viability problems seen in the Glenn VSH stock. 

I guess the big question is could the scenerio that Rusty attempted be likely to succeed? I suspect that the answer is highly dependent upon the quality and diversity of the stock involved. Also drone saturation for his open mating is a huge deal for VSH propagation. My guess is that in many cases the answer would be no, simply due to indiscriminate outcrosses. Unless you can better control open matings, the traits will get diluted too quickly to remain viable. It should also be true that simply because the VSH diminished shouldn't leave you with worthless stock. However, if you started with poor stock, then you have a huge uphill battle, one that will be very costly. If the original stock was good, then the remaining stock may be slightly "raw" in that they might not have the qualities that you desire, but they should make honey. The same is true in most survivor stock. If they can barely support themselves, then you need a dramatic infusion of new stock. Don't attempt to improve poor stock through open mating - life is too short.

I guess I need to comment on the remark by Juhani Lunden where he said: "I CAN imagine that crossing VSH with totally non -resistant bees would could make them worthless in all respects." 

Not true. My understanding is that the crossing that you're referencing is basically what led to the Pol-Line bees. These were originally pure VSH that were intentionally outcrossed with Italian bees and then field tested (commercial pollination) over multiple years. The result was very strong bees for sure. They retained decent mite resistance and were great honey producers. Not super gentle, but manageable. I really wish someone would dedicate themselves to replicating this effort to make a "Pol-Line" more commercially available. I did some II experiments this summer crossing VSHxItalian with the hope of getting a Pol-Line like bee. I have several of these II queens overwintering, so hopefully I can say more next year.


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

AstroBee, have you tried any of VP Queen's Pol-Lines?


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

VSH bees may not be perfect yet, but they surely are a proof that it is possible to breed for varroa resistance. 

Randy Oliver (and Peter Loring Borst) refer Mike Alsopps study
http://upetd.up.ac.za/thesis/available/etd-08082007-153050/unrestricted/dissertation.pdf

where the writer points out how despite several decades of hard work, scientists in Europe have very little results in varroa resistance breeding. Bees in South Africa have become resistant in no time just left alone.

In my own breeding I have solely used isolation matings for 20 years. BUT now it seems this road has come to end. I see increasingly more and more signs of inbreeding (some freely mated queens are performing better than isolation apiary mated). 

The last two years I have made only one nuc out of one hive. Earlier I could make 2 or 3. This change seems to have effect, my bees are having harder times. I have not been able to increase the number of hives. 
I see no progress or very little. Plus although I produced 7000 pounds of honey, the productivity is low. 

Therefore I need new way to get forward. I'm not giving in. Maybe I should, I know.

My new system will be near nature: letting the bees be, free mating and splitting hives in two in mid summer.

AstroBee: Good to know that you have respect to VSH bees. I think VSH bees are great. They surely are a BIG add to variation. There is very little or nothing on the market in Europe! I was only referring to those who reported poor results.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

DPBsbees said:


> AstroBee, have you tried any of VP Queen's Pol-Lines?


No I haven't. I haven't heard any feedback on them either. I'd be curious to hear what others have experienced.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

AstroBee, I'm not sure where the mother of my VSH queen came from, but I know it was Virginia, so maybe she's one of yours. The daughter I have was produced by open-breeding in a yard with mixed genetics including a few Russians.

The daughter I have was introduced to a queenless hive in June. As her offspring took over, the natural mite drop rate started ramping up to alarming levels. But at the same time, sugar roll mite counts stayed very low, averaging 2/300 bees. I finally did a FA treatment last month to see how many mites were actually in this booming colony, and got a 1-day drop of about 370 and another 320 in the following week. In other words, they were doing a pretty good job dealing with mites, despite the genetic dilution. Evidently their method of dealing with mites causes a high drop rate? I have no idea how typical this behavior is for VSH bees, and only time will tell the final result.

The colony was very active at foraging but this (first) year has needed a lot of feeding. Slow to build comb, but did finally get around to it. We did not harvest honey this year.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Juhani Lunden said:


> VSH bees may not be perfect yet, but they surely are a proof that it is possible to breed for varroa resistance.
> 
> 
> ... Bees in South Africa have become resistant in no time just left alone.


Interesting. My first guess was "sure, Africanized bees are notably good groomers and deal well with varroa." But then again, SOUTH Africa might be a little cool for Africanized bees? Do they raise European breeds down there?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I am always suspiscious when a TF beekeeper marks success as hive survival rather than honey harvested. Unless you are keeping the bees as pets, honey harvested (or whatever other product of the hive you are producing) is the gauge of success. In other words, TF beekeepers who don't produce a crop of honey close to the local average from year to year are not successful beekeepers.

If you are TF and reliably produce a good crop of honey, good on you! However, the dirty little secret of the TF world is that few of them produce honey crops (there are exceptions, of course).

JMHO


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Don't know if BWeaver bees will survive in your area. Great FAlls can get cold and stay cold (stationed there 1971-75). Question: Do your bees have cleansing flights during chinook winds? 

Thankyou for your service Mr. Burou. I got dragged to this wilderness from beautiful North Dakota because I was a Missile mechanic. I got beached by daughters getting married in the community. Around those fierce Chinook winds are warm mornings and the days they end when the country is still warmed up but the winds have gone down. The bees do get a chance to cleanse every so often all winter.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Phoebee said:


> AstroBee, I'm not sure where the mother of my VSH queen came from, but I know it was Virginia, so maybe she's one of yours.


I suspect not. Very few daughters have left my immediate area.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Bees in South Africa have become resistant in no time just left alone.


Not sure this is the only interpretation of the Allsop dissertation.
He distinguishes two subspecies in SA, Savannah or scutellata and the Cape strain or capensis.

Savannah and Cape bees interact due to migratory practices, and Cape bees are now parasitic on Savannah colonies.

Savannah bees appear to support exponential numbers of mites. Allsop attributes survival to fewer secondary pathogens (a function of dispersed wild colonies). The "Capensis problem" -- the new parasitism of nests by worker-fertile Cape bees means Savannah bees swarm frequently (to maintain population numbers). Savannah bees are preadapted to swarm (as are the African strains in Texas and Arizona). A young swarm doesn't have a Varroa problem. The social interaction of the bee races masks the Varroa issue (and selects for hypovirulence).

Cape bees are pre-adapted to Varroa through allo-grooming. Resistance was already in place, rather than developing resistance, what was experienced in SA was pre-adaptation.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

shinbone said:


> I am always suspiscious when a TF beekeeper marks success as hive survival rather than honey harvested. Unless you are keeping the bees as pets, honey harvested (or whatever other product of the hive you are producing) is the gauge of success. In other words, TF beekeepers who don't produce a crop of honey close to the local average from year to year are not successful beekeepers.


Absolutely - couldn't agree more!! Bees that cannot produce a good surplus should not be used as production queens. I don't care what the pedigree, or even a zero mite count - she's out of consideration as a production queen. They may have a role in a breeding program but much work would be needed to gain real usefulness. Very few breeders would have such skills and resources. Non-performers simply get culled out in my efforts as I cannot devote the time and effort needed.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Lots of good points here, guys. Lots to think about. I'm so isolated here that I've never had difficulty maintaining Cordovan hives using open breeding, so with that in mind, I'm thinking maybe maintaining 2 hives out of my 12 with F1 VSH queens for drone production and the rest of the hives with Cordovan queens for bees and honey. I like the _IDEA _of VSH and am reluctant to abandon it entirely. But--hey--I'm in this for honey and pollination and Cordovans have always been great producers for me. Maybe over time this mix can establish some VSH genetics in the Cordovans without losing all their good qualities.

Time will tell.

Thanks for all the help!

Rusty


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I have been working with the Italians and Cordovan hybrids. It is better if your VSH queens are the Cordovan type also. Once you open mate the Cordovan queens then the genetics and color is no longer a Cordovan color. For example, a virgin Cordovan x Italian drones resulted in a lighter Italian F1 queen. But if you have all Cordovan drones then the F1 might bee a Cordovan. Somehow the Italian genetics is the dominate gene. The Glenn site has some infos on this color trait if you want to maintain the Cordovan color in your bees. Something that is not that easy to do when all the drones are the Italians dominated. Not sure if you are selecting for the color or just the Italian traits. Have fun and keep us updated on your progress.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

shinbone said:


> In other words, TF beekeepers who don't produce a crop of honey close to the local average from year to year are not successful beekeepers.


So all the back yard beeks who are looking to pollinate their gardens are not successful beekeepers no matter what they do? Got it.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Acebird said:


> So all the back yard beeks who are looking to pollinate their gardens are not successful beekeepers no matter what they do? Got it.


I disagree with this one. A backyard beekeeper has its own small scale beekeeping success. Just take a look at the vegetable seeds produced and all the extra
fruits that we got from the Spring pollination. My backyard fruits/bee plants production has tripled this year compare to last. I have my own success in another way
other than just the honey alone. You either produce more bees or more honey. Both are success to me!


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## Deepsouth (Feb 21, 2012)

shinbone said:


> I am always suspiscious when a TF beekeeper marks success as hive survival rather than honey harvested. Unless you are keeping the bees as pets, honey harvested (or whatever other product of the hive you are producing) is the gauge of success. In other words, TF beekeepers who don't produce a crop of honey close to the local average from year to year are not successful beekeepers.
> 
> If you are TF and reliably produce a good crop of honey, good on you! However, the dirty little secret of the TF world is that few of them produce honey crops (there are exceptions, of course).
> 
> JMHO


I believe that treatment free success relies on location. Im treatment free in Louisiana which I believe is probably easier than northern climates. The bees have longer time to build back up in the spring before the flows start. 
My bees consistently produce 100 lb of honey per hive each year being TF.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

JWChesnut said:


> Genetically fragile queens (Spivak identifies 20 loci responsible for VSH) are only going to be successfully maintained in an isolated and controlled breeding program.


I think to many this is simply greek. It does not register as to what exactly it means when it comes to the chance traits will be passed on. So to put it simply it is a near impossibility. Ti woudl be like rolling 20 dice and coming up with 20 6's. and if you don't the entire roll is a waste. Now that it not completely accurate but you do need to roll some particular number to get effective VSH. And those that have dedicated themselves to rolling dice come up with it rarely. and that is the reality of VSH. It may never change. hopefully it will. But the idea you can just go out and by resistant bees is not even close to a reality. And that you can reproduce them is even further away.

I am not saying abandon the fight. but keeping in perspective is important. My best to those rolling the dice. It is a long hard costly venture.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

In Europe there is a lot going on with VSH bees
https://www.facebook.com/aristabeeresearch?ref=ts&fref=ts


They seem to think more highly about them than some in US...


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## AL from Georgia (Jul 14, 2014)

I am glad I read this thread. I have been thinking of trying some of the VSH stock. There is some great information here.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

VSH can work well for those who are in a position to buy AI queens as the daughters will all express VSH traits. I don't think it is practical for the Po Folk.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

shinbone said:


> In other words, TF beekeepers who don't produce a crop of honey close to the local average from year to year are not successful beekeepers.





Acebird said:


> So all the back yard beeks who are looking to pollinate their gardens are not successful beekeepers no matter what they do? Got it.


A healthy hive will pollinate AND produce honey (or some other hive product such as propolis, splits, etc.). If a hive only pollinates but does not produce any honey, etc., then that hive is having problems.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Juhani Lunden said:


> In Europe there is a lot going on with VSH bees
> https://www.facebook.com/aristabeeresearch?ref=ts&fref=ts
> 
> 
> They seem to think more highly about them than some in US...


Interesting. Godspeed to these researchers! 

The concept of Artificially Inseminating 50 queens with semen from just one drone makes me uneasy about the genetic bottleneck that creates for you in the EU. So far, honey bees have depended on Polyandry for their future adaptability. Keep us posted on this project, please.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

No, the AI process will use many semen mixed in the process not just from a single drone.
In open mating the virgin will mate with many drones up to 7 times to collect its genetic diversity.
So in an AI process the same concept applied just for the diversity of the hive workers. Looking at
the same bee color in a hive is not fun when they are all the same.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

beepro said:


> No, the AI process will use many semen mixed in the process not just from a single drone.


Lburou was referring to this work in Europe with VSH, they did 1 drone inseminations.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Lburou said:


> Interesting. Godspeed to these researchers!
> 
> The concept of Artificially Inseminating 50 queens with semen from just one drone makes me uneasy about the genetic bottleneck that creates for you in the EU. So far, honey bees have depended on Polyandry for their future adaptability. Keep us posted on this project, please.


I haven't read the source your referring to, but just to be clear, 50 queens could not be inseminated from 1 drone. A typical technique in II breeding and evaluation is to use single drone inseminations, i.e., 1 drone is used to inseminate 1 queen. Dr John Harbo has used this quite a bit in his work.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Daniel Y said:


> But the idea you can just go out and by resistant bees is not even close to a reality. And that you can reproduce them is even further away.


This needs to be qualified a bit. Of course you can go out and buy VSH and have resistant bees. The sources of high quality VSH is spotty, but they are available. Buyers need to understand what they are buying. However, allowing open mating of offspring will likely quickly lead to diminished traits.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

shinbone said:


> A healthy hive will pollinate AND produce honey.


Yes, of course but they all don't produce honey close to the local average. Some produce more and some produce less and both can be healthy. I would expect those beekeepers who use crush and strain to yield less honey but maybe healthier bees or not. There are a number of threads on the topic of "successful beekeepers" and the definition varies as do beekeepers. We don't need to do it here.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

I believe the link provided, Arista Bee Research used the drones from just one source, which they described as 1 drone. I doubt there's enough material to get a quality insemination with just 1 drone...

They are also using small cell, which will make it difficult in my mind to determine which is having the effect on the varroa. Genetics or cell size etc...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> However, allowing open mating of offspring will likely quickly lead to diminished traits.


It is logical that this would happen but how did the European honeybee get to be such a great producer of honey? Time? Would time increase the probability of the VSH trait continuing from open breeding by constantly selecting for it?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Perhaps these will help.

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/genetic_aspects_queen_production_3.html

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/choosing-your-troops-breeding-mite-fighting-bees/


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## Arista Bee Research (Oct 10, 2014)

Brandy said:


> I believe the link provided, Arista Bee Research used the drones from just one source, which they described as 1 drone. I doubt there's enough material to get a quality insemination with just 1 drone...
> 
> They are also using small cell, which will make it difficult in my mind to determine which is having the effect on the varroa. Genetics or cell size etc...


Dear Brandy, 

The drones we used (1 per queen) were coming from different lines. 6 different breeders are involved - they used different lines (their best for Varroa fall after treatment and hygienic behavior) for their queens as well as their drones. So we have a high variaty of (very high quality) breeding stock in these one-drone queens. 

We have a - seperate - Small Cell project. The one-drone project is not done with small cells but with the standard 5.4 cell-size combs.

Kind regards,

BartJan Fernhout
Arista Bee Research Foundation


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Thanks for the explanation. The Facebook link that was previously provided may have grouped both studies together. I'm impressed that enough "material" from one drone is able to provide such quality insemination's as is illustrated in the link. Good luck to your group.


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## Arista Bee Research (Oct 10, 2014)

Brandy said:


> Thanks for the explanation. The Facebook link that was previously provided may have grouped both studies together. I'm impressed that enough "material" from one drone is able to provide such quality insemination's as is illustrated in the link. Good luck to your group.


The material from one drone (10% of normal) is not enough to produce a normal production hive-queen which can lay eggs for 3 years..... The one-drone amount of sperm is just enough to have a relative small colony being built up and have their brood counted for the VSH-trait (after addition of mites in the months before). In our case we had the queens inseminated late May, early June and did the VSH test at the end of August. Assuming a 3-6 months egg-supply we decided to ship the queens to (warmer - long season) Spain where we are now producing F1-multi-drone offspring. The drones of these (longer living) queens can be used in the breeding program in the coming years.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Arista Bee Research said:


> 6 different breeders are involved - they used different lines (their best for Varroa fall after treatment and hygienic behavior) for their queens as well as their drones. So we have a high variaty of (very high quality) breeding stock in these one-drone queens.


Can you please tell us more precisely what are the pedigrees of these 6 different breeders.


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## Arista Bee Research (Oct 10, 2014)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Can you please tell us more precisely what are the pedigrees of these 6 different breeders.


"Breeders" refer to the beekeepers who selected the queens and drones for the one-drone experiments. Most of these beekeepers list their pedigrees on http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/.
We will use the winter to analyze all our data and results in more detail, including the pedigrees, and will then make decisions on which lines to use for next year. The first objective is to reach 100% VSH and then produce normal multi-drone colonies of them and have them performing under standard conditions.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

For instance here:
http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_RL_2014.html

In the middle there is a text: "AristaBeeResearch 1 drone insemination-combination Breeder Nr …"

There is for instance her pedigree:

B96(PM) = .12 – B320(JAF) ins A260(JAF) : iiq .08 – B188(PJ) ins B124(PJ) : 
(18x) .06 – B271(PJ) ins B248(PJ) : .04 – B194(PJ) ins A164(PJ) : etc… 

This B96 is a queen of Pierre Marin(PM), born 2012, its mother, B320, has been evaluated and inseminated with A260 by José Artus (JAF), and her mother was a queen evaluated and inseminated by Paul Jungels 2008 and so on...

The drone sides (in this A260 and B124) can be followed into next generations in their respective sites.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

What's not clear is it doesn't seem like there's enough time for varroa to build up in the short time frame until they are making counts and evaluations.. It also seems that varroa is being added vs. building up in this part of the project??? Just trying to get a better understanding of this project and the evaluations being made.. Thanks for any clarifications..


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## Arista Bee Research (Oct 10, 2014)

Brandy said:


> What's not clear is it doesn't seem like there's enough time for varroa to build up in the short time frame until they are making counts and evaluations.. It also seems that varroa is being added vs. building up in this part of the project??? Just trying to get a better understanding of this project and the evaluations being made.. Thanks for any clarifications..


Indeed, there is not enough time to have the test colony completely build up its own mites. Furthermore, VSH resistant colonies will actually reduce the mite-load...(a real issue for these kind of projects!). 
Most of the one-drone colonies were made of bees which were untreated the winter before. So they got already a relative high amount of mites at the start. But to make sure we had enough mites in the brood to count at the end of august, we also added mites in many of the colonies by either putting some of the open brood (of the test colony) in a highly infested colony (and putting it back after the brood was closed), or we harvested mites with powder sugar from big colonies and added them to the smaller one-drone colonies. As we did this in early July, the mites still had time to propagate for around 2 rounds.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Arista Bee Research, thanks for the informative explanation of your research. The FaceBook page confused the two research projects, you answered questions illuminating the big picture, thanks.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Brandy said:


> What's not clear is it doesn't seem like there's enough time for varroa to build up in the short time frame until they are making counts and evaluations.. It also seems that varroa is being added vs. building up in this part of the project??? Just trying to get a better understanding of this project and the evaluations being made.. Thanks for any clarifications..


First, Why woudl some specific level of build up be necessary. IF the evaluation is being made according to most and least. 1 is more than 0. So one mite could very well be enough to make a determination. how long does it take for a colony to accumulate 1 mite?

More importantly. It is a bit like saying you can never consider some particular animal has immunity to a disease because it has never gotten sick. It is not so much you can prove immunity as you can prove exposure without the animal getting infected. So the argument woudl ultimately be that yo do not determine VSH by mite counts because In a VSH hive there would not be any mites to count. Rendering the time for mites to build up thing irrelevant. It is behaviors that are associated with VSH that are being measured. Now how accurate those methods of measuring are may be in question and I believe they are still under refinement.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

"First, Why woudl some specific level of build up be necessary. IF the evaluation is being made according to most and least. 1 is more than 0. So one mite could very well be enough to make a determination. how long does it take for a colony to accumulate 1 mite?"

Since I'm not coming from a scientific background but a practical, applicable background I'm not seeing a lot of mite build up in the first year or so. Either nucs, swarms, splits etc.. for varroa to have much of an impact on a colony. So, to understand how their project was dealing with, counting, studying, breeding for VSH in a breeding program with such a short window, in mini nucs to me, was something a little different than what's being done here.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

I thought the VSH trait was tested by killing a circle of brood on a comb and counting the percentage of brood removal after 24 hours :scratch: Its not mite counts when measuring The VSH trait. Its mite counts after you put one of those queens in your hive and go to production.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

The mites which are reproducing are specially interesting and their relation (in numbers) to non reproducers. Finally, as Arista replied, happens what we TF beekeepers have been saying for years (my diary .../varroakertomus.html 14.8.2011) that the number of mites gets down, when there is not enough reproducing mites.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Lburou, that's just hygenics, nothing to do with vsh.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I have heard of a few methods of testing. all can be questioned since they do not include actual removal of mites except one that looks for chewed on mites. Freezing brood shows that bees remove dead pupa. Mite infested pupa are not dead pupa. I cannot say how they came to the conclusion such tests are reliable or even if they ever have been considered reliable. That is part of the search for resistant bees. how to even tell you have a resistant bee in the first place.

As for hygienic. it is one of at least three parts of being VSH. Notice the H in there. that is for Hygienic. Bees can be hygienic for many things.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Good points Daniel Y.

Here is a picture of removed pupae.








No tests done, just left without treatments.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

The test for VSH was the uncapping of pupa that had mites reproducing in the cell. The researchers gave the bees infested brood, when the bees uncapped the cells the researchers inspected the brood for evidence of mites reproducing. The bees often recapped the sells without removing the pupa, but the disruption of the cell being unopened caused the mite's offspring to die or not be mated. 

The bees that open the cells are not always the same ones that remove the pupa, the genes that cause the capping removal are not the same ones that cause the pupa removal. The frozen pupa test is just for the hygienic traits that cause the removal of diseased larvae or pupa, those traits are not the same for detecting varroa activity in the cells. This test has never been stated to be a test for VSH. We need to remember that VSH is a trait that any bee may possess. It is not a "breed" of bee. A bee that is hygienic for disease may or may not have the VSH trait.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Good points Daniel Y.
> 
> Here is a picture of removed pupae.
> View attachment 14147
> ...


How often will a hive with an entrance like this be a strong thriving hive? In our bees such an entrance is almost always in a collapsing hive.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Can´t say, I haven´t noticed connection between finding dead pupa and troubles. This particular hive was (and still is) one of my strongest ones.









Picture taken 28th May, willow starts here end of April, dandelion end of May.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

JRG13 said:


> Lburou, that's just hygenics, nothing to do with vsh.


Thanks! I'll try to get smarter about this.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I noticed a couple of hives last spring with bouts of chalk brood. I was surprised at the overall effect it seemed to have on the hives build up. I caused me to reconsider just how healthy a hive needs to remain in order to thrive. The delayed build up may have been caused by many things. Eventually they recovered. earlier morning sun was the key to preventing the chalk brood.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Daniel Y said:


> I noticed a couple of hives last spring with bouts of chalk brood. I was surprised at the overall effect it seemed to have on the hives build up.


Up here we have had two very cold long springs. The chalkbrood was my ball and chain. We requeened everything that was severely infected. Who knows if it helped but we wanted to do something about the issue. The worst thing about chalk brood is that the colony looks big enough to be able to build large and productive, yet the amount of brood the chalkbrood leaves only allows the colony to hardly maintain itself... It was my worst infection aside from the back ground levels of nosema. 
The best way I found to control chalkbrood; try not to cold shock the hive (morning work, or work during days its cool and cloudy), feed lots of protein and sugar, LEAVE THE HIVES ALONE! LOL


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian said:


> LEAVE THE HIVES ALONE! LOL


What? Are you crazy?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> What? Are you crazy?


Ace... Not indefinitely .... Lol


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