# Signs of swarm preparation?



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

The general consensus is that once a hive "decides" to swarm it is quite difficult to make it change it's mind.

So whatever you are going to do to prevent swarming sooner is probably better than later - so as to head it off before they go in that direction. At least that is the impression I am under.

This has been touched on in another thread - Simple Effective Swarm Management for Beginners? So - what are the signs to look for that it is time to do something? 

Squarepeg said - "walt wright describes looking for a band of 'dry cells' between the brood and the open nectar and pollen. they may appear polished or they may have a very small amount of nectar in them. this indicates that the bees are expanding (opposite of backfilling) the broodnest. it's easy to see even for a beginner. if there are no open cells there, and if the bees are filling cells in the nest after brood emerges instead of getting them ready for more brood then swarm preps are well underway."

Mike Gilmore said - "There is a point prior to swarm prep when they will inspect their colony and find a LOT of new "capped" brood on several frames. The next inspection might find an explosion in population and many of those cells now empty. If at that point they notice some of the brood cells are being backfilled with nectar it's time for them to think about..."

These are both great insights - what other signs can we look for that it is time to take action to try to manage swarming?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Lots of drones flying.
Lots of traffic.
A crowded hive.
Backfilling the brood nest.
and the clincher, of course, swarm cells...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> The general consensus is that once a hive "decides" to swarm it is quite difficult to make it change it's mind.


The preparation that the hive goes through is probably three weeks long or better starting with expansion. You don't want to stop expansion or you won't have any bees for the flow. In the heather land they let bees swarm and caught them with a net coming out of the hive. So there are a bunch of opinions on how to prevent hives from completing their swarm instinct. It is just a question of which one you favor or which one you want to try first. All things beekeeping is timing. Get it right you win, get it wrong you lose. Problem is timing is not always the same.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

True. But this thread is not actually intended to be about how to prevent swarms, but rather how to know when a hive is about to take that fork in the road - swarm/don't swarm. But, as we know the road to an internet food fight is paved with good intentions.

A "*FOOD FIGHT!*" icon would be handy at times. Just a suggestion.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

It is often suggested that dandelion bloom is the time to add the first supers, which assuming that is true then the implication is that if you don't then swarm prep could be triggered. 

Of course depending on weather they may or may not be able to even bring in early nectar. So if you see white wax like this:








it seems like that could an indication that nectar is available in excess of the day to day requirements - even if it is ealier than dandelion. Maybe maple, but the weather is unusually fine for gathering it in.

Does that make sense?


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

When the bags are packed and sitting on the front porch. Is usually a sing of impending departure! :banana:


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> The preparation that the hive goes through is probably three weeks long or better starting with expansion. You don't want to stop expansion or you won't have any bees for the flow.


My experience has been a little different than what you described above. I've found that swarm preparation begins "after" a massive build up and expansion of the brood nest. Near the peak of brood build up is when I've noticed the initiation of backfilling of brood cells and brood nest contraction. That seems to be the beginning of the final stages of swarm preparation, and is when I like to start some type of intervention to stop the process. If not, a couple weeks later I will be looking at capped swarm cells.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

It is sounding like some are adding precautionary supers of drawn comb (and excluders?) before it is consistently warm enough to do invasive inspections. Do I have that right? What is the effect of placing supers with undrawn foundation (and no excluder)? Here we go from winter to summer with maybe a week long spring in between. Generally the shift in seasons happens just as Dandelions bloom locally - perhaps two/three weeks before Apple bloom.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

david, that new comb in your picture looks like drone comb and that it was drawn in the empty space in the rim you provided for the sugar. i'm guessing that photo was take earlier in the season and before i would be expecting to see swarms. perhaps the sugar provided the extra resources needed for them to draw that wax.

as to the signs, i think what is happening in the broodnest, expansion vs. contraction, is the best internal sign and one i will be paying a little closer attention to going forward. 

another internal sign would be if the bees fail to move up into the next box and start capping honey at the tops of the frames in highest box they are working, especially if the next box up is empty comb and they appear to be ignoring it.

walt also does a good job describing external signs in terms of noting that peak swarming is related to the timing of certain blooms. my experience was virtually the same as his in that regard which is not surprising since our locations are close. since bloom times are more tied into weather patterns they may be more reliable than calendar time. i began more careful journaling of first blooms and swarm issues last year, and this could be recommended as something for beginners to do.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Andrew Dewey said:


> It is sounding like some are adding precautionary supers of drawn comb (and excluders?) before it is consistently warm enough to do invasive inspections. Do I have that right? What is the effect of placing supers with undrawn foundation (and no excluder)? Here we go from winter to summer with maybe a week long spring in between. Generally the shift in seasons happens just as Dandelions bloom locally - perhaps two/three weeks before Apple bloom.


sounds like it is much different here than what you experience in maine andrew. the juniper (red cedar) is already producing pollen here. i don't think the bees use it, but it means that the maples and elms are not too far behind. on the nice weather days in february, the bees are gathering lots of tree pollen and using that along with their overwintered honey stores to build their numbers back up. in march there is both pollen and nectar coming in and the colonies can get strong enough to swarm anywhere from late march to early april depending on the weather. that's why we have to add our supers, checkerboard, ect. by late february or so. there are some days here at that time are suitable for inspection, although it usually isn't necessary to do much more than to make sure the colony is queenright.

undrawn foundation in the supers is useless here in the early season. typically the bees will not start drawing new comb until after they swarm, (or have been prevented from swarming), which coincides with the beginning of our main flow. the exception is they will draw a foundationless frame if it is put into the broodnest.

somehow the bees have figured out that the flow is transient here and tend not to swarm once the main flow is underway. walt believes this strategy is to prevent a swarm from issuing too late only to find itself unable to establish before the onset of our summer dearth.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Thank you to those who started,and contributed, to this thread. For a new bee keeper it is great information...the next step will be applying it in the spring


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Mike Gillmore said:


> My experience has been a little different than what you described above. I've found that swarm preparation begins "after" a massive build up and expansion of the brood nest. Near the peak of brood build up is when I've noticed the initiation of backfilling of brood cells and brood nest contraction. That seems to be the beginning of the final stages of swarm preparation, and is when I like to start some type of intervention to stop the process. If not, a couple weeks later I will be looking at capped swarm cells.


So, you have good luck intervening just two weeks before you would expect to find cells?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Square peg - they do sometimes build some brace comb in the feed shim, but it is only that white when a flow of some kind is on - in my experience. That picture actually was a maple flow during the winter that wasn't a winter a couple back. They capped most of a super on it - very clear honey, very white wax. That comb was a pretty sure sign that it was time to take off the feed. Lots of early swarming that year - my first one issued on April fools day. Pretty appropriate all in all.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

That was a crazy year for sure David! Having to look and mash cells in March. 

once a hive hits 2 deeps worth of bees I take 2 excess frames of honey or pollen and replace with foundation or starter strips. This gets me new comb and helps give laying space in the new combs which (in my opinion) queens love to lay in. Then I place the honey supers on top.

I then check every week during swarm season for cells by tilting the brood chamber up and looking at the bottom of the combs. Takes just a minute. 

Still have perfecting to do on it. It works for me though.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

One of the fringe benefits of checkerboarding (CB) is not having to go down to the broadnest to verify no intent to swarm. No swarm intent can be seen at the top of the hive. The key to swarm prevention w/CB is the overhead storing of nectar. Pop the top and verify nectar being stored at the top. If you have too many hives to remember where the top of nectar storage was last week, mark that spot on the outside of the super with a permanent felt marker. This week, just look for increase, and add another super of drawn comb. If they are storing nectar at the top, they have no intent to swarm, and brood volume continues expand upward.

That's what CB is all about - diverting incoming nectar overhead and avoiding the swarm prep action of backfilling.

Walt


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

David LaFerney said:


> So, you have good luck intervening just two weeks before you would expect to find cells?


That's a good time for me to stat inserting empty comb in the brood nest area, adding supers, or remove the queen in a small split. Three weeks is probably best, so it's done before any brood nest contraction starts up. For me that is usually sometime in mid April, depending on the start of spring blooms.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> That's what CB is all about - diverting incoming nectar overhead and avoiding the swarm prep action of backfilling.
> 
> Walt


When have you seen the bees put it below? They always put it above and work their way down. It is a pretty simple concept. Once a hive becomes strong enough you need space above to store honey and space below so they don't swarm. If you are all about honey production then you under super. Harder to do and harder to keep up with what is going on and a lot more work.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Congratulations, Ace
You went from beginner to consultant in record time. And I didn't even get an invitation to the commencement ceremonies. 
You must have cut a class or two in your haste. The 'always' statement above is incorrect.
Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> The 'always' statement above is incorrect.
> Walt


It might be. You got any video?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Andrew Dewey said:


> It is sounding like some are adding precautionary supers of drawn comb (and excluders?) before it is consistently warm enough to do invasive inspections. Do I have that right? What is the effect of placing supers with undrawn foundation (and no excluder)? Here we go from winter to summer with maybe a week long spring in between. Generally the shift in seasons happens just as Dandelions bloom locally - perhaps two/three weeks before Apple bloom.


Keep in mind we had a protracted spring this past year. it started in early February and ended late April early may. My bees had swarm cells on April 14th. I estimate this was around one to two weeks before the actual Repro cut off date Walt describes. So close but it was a very long battle to prevent swarming. Swarming in this area was on a scale I have never seen it before. We captured 14 swarms in an area i have only seen two in 30 years. It looks like it is gearing up to be another year just like that again.

Okay so I started adding supers in late February early March at the first sing they where building up. At that point the queen was already pretty much at a full size brood nest. Due to limited boxes I was only able to build the hive up to two deeps with three mediums on top. The equivalent of 4 deeps. The queen continued to move up laying brood in any available cells as they where drawn. In the end she actually went all the way p through all 4 boxes. but you could also tell she had exceeded her limit on how many eggs she could lay in a day. The nest also narrowed and by the time she was in the 4th box it spanned only about 4 frames in width and she did not come close to filling frames. She only remained up top for a couple of days and then no sign of her in the upper boxes was sen again. it is as if she returned to the original brood nest and remained there. In 20 20 hind sight I think this is the first indication that things had changed and they where making that turn toward choosing to swarm. As I recall it was till about 2 weeks before the appearance of queen cells though. I cannot say this behavior is consistent but if it is I would say that the queen returning to the bottom of the hive is a sing that further intervention is necessary. that swarm prevention is not working and that they will in fact swarm in the next week to two weeks. I will make more observations keepign this in mind and see if anything reliable comes of it. But it could be a nice indicator of progress if it holds true.

As this same period approached I also noticed a lot of bees just lounging in the top of the hive. comb building had slowed or completely stopped. I recall this standing out to me very clearly. there where a lot of bees and not much going on in the way of work in the hive. they even crowded in above the inner cover. Expansion was clearly trailing off. I believe at this time that had i had drawn comb I could have kept that queen in the top of the hive longer and fewer bees woudl have been lounging as a result. Could I have delayed swarming for yet another two weeks? I do not know. I believe I had been preventing it for about 6 weeks up to this point. Swarming conditions where so good last year that some swarms I captured built up and attempted to cast swarms of their own. At one point I was actually capturing two swarms at the same time. Not from my apiary.

Okay that is my bit about what i noticed in my hive as I attempted to prevent swarming but watched as the bees made that turn anyway. Prior to swarming this colony had a population that I had ever expectation they could produce 300 lbs of honey. I managed to catch the swarm they did cast and it filled a double deep hive. between it and the parent colony I still got around 200 lbs of honey.

So hey it wasn't pretty but I still salvaged most of my apiary.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

When bees prepare to swarm they tend to *avoid the combs*. You than see the bees on the walls and in a deep floor clustering below the bottom of the frames. (Or in a fixed comb hive below the combs.) In observation hives you find many bees with their bellies turned to the window. See picture below. As said, they seem to avoid the combs.

If there are drones crowding on that bottom cluster the swarm is most likely to take of the same day.

Bellies turned to the window:









*They stop any comb building*. While in Spring and later in a flow they build new combs, they immediately stop to draw more combs a week or so before swarming. 

A partially drawn comb (fixed comb hive, observation hive) that has been abandoned. A week before there were no bees on the window and a cluster around that comb.









With a deep floor you see something like this, a *cluster below the combs*: 










That is "play cup", they are just playing. No real swarming attitudes.You see this by the rims of the cell/cup: the cup has a thick rim/seam.









*Once the cell's rim/seam is thinned out, they are starting swarm preparations*. You easily can differentiate between the thick and thin seams of the cell. If it is thinned, they start swarm preps.









Of course a capped queen cells tells you are too late. :wink:









Before swarming, the bees are really really busy. Just before swarming, *they stop foraging and do seem much less busy*. Workers hanging around the front entrance. *Combs start to shine/sparkle*, because nectar is put over all over the comb, including pollen stores. *If the pollen in the combs sparkles, they started swarm preparations*.

Also the bees respond different on knocking the hive's wall. *Knock-knock and a long muttering answer means swarm preparations*. A short hiss says, they are alright. I read this in the book of Eddie Woods. See: http://beedata.com/data2/listen/listenbees.htm And I found it to be true. You don't need a gadget for this. Just your knuckles. 

*You find scout bees hovering around houses, sheds and buildings* - those are scout bees. Once 50 or more scouts hover around and walk into a swarm trap, the swarm most likely moves in within a day. So scout bees also indicate a swarm. 

Just some of the observations I made.

Bernhard


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I know in my hive they may have placed the nectar above the nest. but they did not put it at the tip of the hive. they worked there way up.

Since last year i have seen some things that make me wonder if i should not have kept more empty space just above the brood nest though. as the bees worked there way up they built a longer and longer band of solid honey or nectar between the main nest and where they where storing nectar. Keep in mind the brood nest stretched up through this space as well.

With all the discussion about side expansion this past year. I have been playing over in my mind some ideas that are a variation of both checkerboard and continued side expansion of the brood nest. Mainly my thinking centers around more attention being given to keepign empty space near the brood nest where ever it is. I imagine it might keep the bees aware that more building is still necessary. Just one more detail that may help keep the bees in the fill it up mode rather than the pack it up mode.

At one time I read a comment that directly claimed that one of the unique qualities of the Langstroth hives. is that for unknown reasons it will cause bees to work upward. In fact they tend to move upward rather than down when given the choice. I have seen this myself. Interesting little tid bit if nothing else.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I have to learn the sound of a hive ready to swarm. that not only woudl be handy. but it would look cool as all get out as well.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

great observations here, many thanks to all for contributing.

i have also noticed that a decrease in foraging and bees bearding at the entrance when other hives are not showing these signs may be indicators. the other thing is seeing what looks like a very large orientation flight and then the bees return to the hive, this is likely a 'practice' swarm indicating the possibility that the bees are ready to take off. i would expect however that signs inside the hive such as backfilling and queen cells would already be visible by this point.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Berhard, with all the signs of swarm prep that you have observed is there any chance of deterring the bees from swarming at this point? These signs appear to me to be too late for swarm prevention.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

I know only of one way to stop swarming and that is to remove the old queen. As a last resort. 

Play cups do not count. I ignore them. If you break their play cups they start building more. First time they draw on the queen cells, I tear them down. Second time: tear down again. Third time they build swarm cells, I remove the old queen with three combs of brood and stores. Breaking all queen cells 7 days later except one. That's it. Such colonies are marked and not get used for further breeding. It is easy to select for less-swarming bees. But you do not have to disturb much of the swarm preparations in order to find out, which hive swarms easy and which hive does play but doesn't swarm. With less swarmy bees one or two times breaking cells is enough for them to stop swarming. It is all about good breeding.

A less-swarmy queen is a queen, that continues to lay eggs despite swarm preparations. Such queens are the best. 

I have two bee colonies within my house (in the attic) which I do super as normal but don't do any swarm preventions. So those hives swarm and when they do, I know it is swarm time and I have to look closer to the other hives. I call'em "swarm barometer".

So I catch two swarms minimum each year. Best way I know of is to use a garden hose and water. So it is good to have the hives near the house. During that time of year I usually work in the yard or garden. Once the swarm is up in the air I sprinkle the swarm with cold water from the garden hose. This makes the swarm sit down immediately. I pick up the queen, cage her and hang the swarm into a tree. House them in the evening. Never had a swarm absconding the new home this way.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

You know what would be really helpful - A timeline of indicators and possible preventative actions - starting way before swarm season like:

*First pollen and nectar becomes available - Checkerboard
*Dandelion Bloom - Install first honey supers
*Appearance of white wax in hives - ?
*Drone brood - ?
*Sudden appearance of much capped brood - 
*Sudden population expansion and congestion -
*Signs of backfilling in broodnest - Split, open broodnest, etc...
*Queen cells - Remove queen and cut down all but one cell, split hive, run in circles, scream and shout, etc...
*Large numbers of bees issuing from hive - Throw a goodbye kiss, go get your swarm collection kit.

Just examples not actual advised courses of action.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i just wanted to say thanks to you david for starting these threads and renewing the discussion regarding swarm prevention.

i think most of us are looking to show some bounty for the effort, and after seeing how much more honey a non-swarmed colony can make compared to a swarmed colony, this topic hits home for the majority here. 

it's difficult to delineate a one size fits all method mostly because of the extreme variations in climate, differences in equipment choices, ect.

walt's recommendations are great for those running single deeps and smaller supers. for those with two or more deeps i think roland's method of moving capped brood above an excluder is time tested and reliable. for those running all mediums i would look at mike bush's recommendations on opening the broodnest.

and then when all else fails and the astute beekeeper finds that despite all preventative measures the colony is about the swarm, being prepared with empty equipment to make splits should be part of the plan.

for me it's not the end of the world if a few swarms get away. my hope is that they will boost the feral population around me and ultimately provide survivor drones for queen mating.

i am really looking forward to seeing how things go this spring for the many contributors that have joined this conversation. what i like most about beesource is being able to glean these tidbits of useful information that i can apply to my endeavors.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

David LaFerney said:


> ...


Too much fiddling. The basic approach is supering early enough, keep ahead with supering and let all else roll by itself. Check for cells in time (when drones appear), don't split when you find the first queen cell. To early. Just break the cell one time, another time (checking 7 days later) and make a split with the old queen when they continue to draw queen cells the third time. 

The less you do, the better. Good and timed supering is the best swarm prevention, the rest is genetics/breeding.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I am sure that you are correct, but many newer beekeepers don't have much if any comb for supering. Also, it seems that our genetics may be more swarm prone than yours - an awful lot of the breeding effort has gone into mite tolerance for quite a while. 

Nonetheless - I have a hive in mind that was reasonably gentle, didn't swarm last year - despite being very large and strong - made a very good honey crop, and remained robust. If it makes it to spring I plan to rear queens from it.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Drones are not an indication for Swarm preparation as we have Drones at least 2 months before Swarm season here.

I believe the bees that are just hanging around, not appearing to be doing anything that Bernhard is talking about are Wax Makers in preparation. They have filled up on Nectar and it takes a few days for wax production to start. They are storing it up to build comb for the new site.

That's why Opening the Sides of the Broodnest is useful as a swarm prevention and not just for those who want to increase the amount of drawn comb. As it keeps them making wax, they can't store it up to swarm.

*It is all about triggering wax production and then maintaining wax production into the main flow.*


*Steps:*

*1. Several weeks before swarm season, move each outside frame up into a new box and checkerboard them with new frames, directly above the Broodnest.

2. Insert a new frame on each outside edge of the Broodnest. (So that a Brood frame is only on one side of the new frame.)*

*3. Check them in 2-3 weeks and repeat if comb in the frames has been mostly drawn.*

The new frames have only a *strip of foundation* as a guide. I would have no more than half a sheet of foundation on a new frame. There must be a HOLE close to the broodnest to trigger wax making before swarm season. Bees will often build only drone comb before swarm season if the frame is completely foundationless. But with a 1 inch foundation strip the frames typically ends up being about 2/3 worker to 1/3 drone comb.

It doesn't require much time to do and there is not need to go searching for queen cells or other indicators in the Broodnest. You just need to ensure that wax making is happening on those two new frames, on each outside edge of the Broodnest.


It can be done with hives that have wintered as 1 Deep, 2 Deeps, 1 Deep and 1 Medium, All mediums, or Nucs.

Give it a go.

More Information:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...-the-Broodnest

http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...warm-managment

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...mple-Effective-Swarm-Management-for-Beginners

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?292359-Single-deep-swarm-management-confusion/


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Best way I know of is to use a garden hose and water.


This if very interesting. It sounds like you are using water as a net. So do you sit around your hives waiting for them to swarm, garden hose in hand?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Daniel Y said:


> With all the discussion about side expansion this past year. I have been playing over in my mind some ideas that are a variation of both checkerboard and continued side expansion of the brood nest. Mainly my thinking centers around more attention being given to keeping empty space near the brood nest where ever it is.


That is exactly what I have settled on, and it works great for me. I use all mediums, and try to keep the bulk of the brood in the bottom three boxes. As the brood nest begins to contract on the sides and expand upward into the supers, I start frame manipulation similar to what Michael Bush describes in great detail. (Opening the broodnest)

As the side frames begin to fill with honey in the bottom three boxes, I will start to remove them and they are placed in one of the supers above, checkerboarded with empty drawn comb. Empty drawn frames are then inserted into the broodnest, pushing the brood frames outward toward the sides of the box. Only one frame or two at a time per box, depending on the population. This keeps the brood nest a little wider in the lower boxes but gives the queen somewhere to continue to lay eggs. The checkerboarded frames in the supers keep overhead lanes of empty comb open. 

It's a bit of work to keep up with it, but is well worth the effort. Later in the spring, after the main swarm season, empty undrawn frames can be inserted in the brood nest and new comb drawn. If they happen to draw a lot of drone cells, no big deal. They make good super frames.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

MattDavey said:


> Drones are not an indication for Swarm preparation as we have Drones at least 2 months before Swarm season here.


Another good example of "one size fits all" not working in every area. Climate variations have a tremendous impact on bee behavior. This is one example. Two months before swarm preparation in my region the bees are still in worker brood build up. They have not even started to think about drones yet. 

Every method needs to match your local conditions. It's trial and error. Matt's method might not work for me here, and what I do successfully may fail in his area.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

MattDavey said:


> There must be a HOLE close to the broodnest to trigger wax making before swarm season.
> 
> Matt: Not sure I understand what you mean by a "hole."


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> ... As the side frames begin to fill with honey in the bottom three boxes, I will start to remove them and they are placed in one of the supers above, checkerboarded with empty drawn comb. Empty drawn frames are then inserted into the broodnest, pushing the brood frames outward toward the sides of the box. Only one frame or two at a time per box, depending on the population. This keeps the brood nest a little wider in the lower boxes but gives the queen somewhere to continue to lay eggs. The checkerboarded frames in the supers keep overhead lanes of empty comb open. ...


This is essentially what I am doing with Opening the Sides, just putting new frames (with only a strip of foundation) beside the Broodnest, instead of inserting empty drawn comb in the Broodnest. So beekeepers without spare drawn comb can do this.

I would rather not insert frames into the Broodnest because it forces the bees to have to heat a larger area. If cold weather sets in, it can cause chilled brood and increase Chalkbrood. Putting new frames on the edge of the Broodnest works just as well.

Our Spring is long and drawn out and can swing between hot and cold quite regularly, maximums between 10°C - 30°C (50°F - 86°F).

Also, when you start seeing Drones, it is a good indicator of when you can start Opening the Sides.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

MattDavey said:


> just putting new frames (with only a strip of foundation) beside the Broodnest, instead of inserting empty drawn comb in the Broodnest. So beekeepers without spare drawn comb can do this.


This is what I struggled with before I had enough drawn comb available. I don't know exactly why the empty frames were not touched in early spring, but I have tried inserting empty frames into or on the sides of the brood nest as you describe and they were completely ignored until after swarm prep. I think it is probably due to our abbreviated spring season. We seem to go from winter straight into summer. The mild spring weather season here is very short. One week we have snow flying, and three weeks later the colonies are swarming.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Actually I found that just dropping on another super in every instance to be about the poorest results I get. I find it results in a tremendous lag in the development of the build up. at times bringing it to a complete halt. Not exactly the effect I am looking to have. I am adding space for them to work. both actions are required. that I add and they work. just adding supers does not achieve those objectives.



BernhardHeuvel said:


> Too much fiddling. The basic approach is supering early enough, keep ahead with supering and let all else roll by itself. Check for cells in time (when drones appear), don't split when you find the first queen cell. To early. Just break the cell one time, another time (checking 7 days later) and make a split with the old queen when they continue to draw queen cells the third time.
> 
> The less you do, the better. Good and timed supering is the best swarm prevention, the rest is genetics/breeding.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

heaflaw said:


> Matt: Not sure I understand what you mean by a "hole."


The bees can't stand having a space larger than about 1 inch close to the Broodnest, inside the stores "layer". So they will do all they can to fill that space. It means the Broodnest is not complete and they want it complete before they can even think about swarming.

A frame with a sheet of foundation in not a large enough space to trigger wax making. So that is why I use a strip. If you go completely foundationless the new comb will mostly be drone comb, but the strip of foundation starts them making worker comb, which then tends to transition to drone comb towards the bottom.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I have tried inserting empty frames into or on the sides of the brood nest as you describe and they were completely ignored until after swarm prep. I think it is probably due to our abbreviated spring season. We seem to go from winter straight into summer. The mild spring weather season here is very short. One week we have snow flying, and three weeks later the colonies are swarming.


If they even ignored empty frames inside the Broodnest then maybe they were already doing swarm preparation. That's why I suggest starting several weeks before swarm season. As we know it's hard to deter them once they start. Although I haven't tried adding a frame of open brood yet...

Maybe you could do it as soon as the snow melts?

Sorry David, we have digressed a bit.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Acebird said:


> So do you sit around your hives waiting for them to swarm, garden hose in hand?


I am on holidays these times and work in the garden. Garden hose ready. 



David LaFerney said:


> I am sure that you are correct, but many newer beekeepers don't have much if any comb for supering.


So you do some sort of "opening the sides of the broodnest". Some more details to make it work: 1) Start very early in the year, just a week after the cleansing flight on a sunny day. Bees flying and forage for pollen. 2) Remove all combs out of the brood boxes, except the ones that are populated by bees. 3) Leave all brood combs. Start at one wall, first insert a pollen comb. Next all the combs with brood. Next one frame with drone comb. (Or drone foundation.) 

The drone comb has to be spaced a little further. The drone comb is a queen magnet. So in Spring she is eager to lay eggs on the drone comb. On the other comb facing the drone comb, no pollen will be stored, instead the queen lays eggs. This way all the brood combs get filled up with brood completely. The drone comb prevents the broodnest from getting clogged with pollen. So close one side of the broodnest with a drone comb. Behind the drone comb you put in a division board/divider, best is an insulated one. Leave out one or two combs, so a gap. Leave two combs with food, scratch some of the cells. The honey will be taken out of that comb by the bees and transfered closer to the broodnest. This empties those combs and it creates a small "nectar flow" inside the hive. 

The broodnest is compact and pretty warm. Not too much pollen, so the queen can lay.

wall
pollen comb
brood combs
drone comb
divider
gap
honey comb
wall

It is important to keep a slightly bigger spacing between drone comb and brood comb, because drone cells are longer thus reaching into the space between the combs. this can lead to pollen to be stored into the comb facing the drone comb. 

First supering you add a frame with foundation right between the outer pollen comb.

wall
pollen comb
foundation
brood combs

Makes nicely drawn comb which gets brood immediately. So no clogging with nectar or pollen. Add more foundation right next to the pollen comb once the foundation is drawn, until the brood box is filled completely.

All the combs collected can be given into the super. You can extract the combs to get out the winter fodder if needed. But this way you have empty combs where you need them. 

Because you compacted the broodnest, the bees readily go into the super. The broodnest is very warm when doing this. Not only because of the divider board, but because bees tend to wander around on all the combs in a hive in Spring. By taking the combs they sit closer together on the remaining combs and in early Spring this is beneficial.



Daniel Y said:


> Actually I found that just dropping on another super in every instance to be about the poorest results I get.


So I assume you have deep boxes? Compacting the broodnest, opening the sides will help the bees keep warm and warmth is what they need in order to populate a honey super. Supering can easily chill the bees, this is what makes them halt. 

Supering without compacting can be done in time by looking for most brood combs being capped. One comb of brood makes three combs of bees, so if you time your supering with the brood cycle results are much better. 

If nothing helps compacting the broodnest helps in a too big a box.

I shook down hives in Spring to weigh the bee mass, because I always wondered why the bigger hive sizes always seem to be so populated. It turned out, that smaller hives have the same amount of bees as the bigger hive sizes. Bees just wander around on all combs. Do if you open a bigger sized hive and you see all frames populated, it is more impressive, of course. But the same amount of bees can be found in a smaller hive. Just my observation.

I reckon the compacted brood nest concentrates warmth and hygienic behaviour to a couple of combs instead of spreading the nursing and caring on all combs of a hive. Also it makes the most profit per box, than any other method.

If you work with all shallows, mediums, or 8-frame hives, this compacting is unneccessary. The boxes are small enough to keep the bees close together.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> If you work with all shallows, mediums, or 8-frame hives, this compacting is unneccessary. The boxes are small enough to keep the bees close together.


That sounds to me if you use 8 frame mediums you don't have to do all the monkey work. I am all for that.

I didn't seem to have a problem with swarms by simply pulling the bottom box out (overwintered in 4 boxes) and putting an empty box of drawn frames on top. Let that box fill up with honey and then throw on the pollen box. I suppose you could use a QE at the top of the third box if you wanted to but I didn't. The next box could be foundation which you can CB with honey frames below. Add boxes of foundation and CB with honey frames below until you reach your height restriction. Extract in the fall.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> ... The mild spring weather season here is very short. One week we have snow flying, and three weeks later the colonies are swarming.


Mike, I find it hard to understand how swarm preparation can start so soon after having snow. The only thing I can think of is massive amounts of nectar coming. But also, a large amount of brood must have been reared beforehand.

We have a number of fine warm days and plenty of nectar around several weeks before swarm preparation starts. But we don't see any preps until a couple of weeks after the Spring Equinox (March 20 in the Northern hemisphere).

What do you think is the cause of the start of swarm preparation in your area, and what sort of dates are you seeing that?

Thinking about, what are the external (elemental) signs that would cause swarm preparation to likely start? Temperature, amount of daylight, etc.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Bernard, the only deep boxes I have are on the bottom as the brood box. everything else is mediums. I agree they seem to me to take to mediums faster than they will a deep because I started out with all deeps so I have tried that also. I still do not see them take to the next box by simply placing an empty box on tip like I do if it is checkerboarded. It makes enough difference that i had bees drawing foundation pre swarm and pre flow last spring something even Walt says will not happen.

I do think that drawing contributed to the failure of preventing swarms though. Just how and why I don't see other than it delays the storing of nectar. to many bees left setting in the hive holding onto nectar that has no place to go. To me it seems the bees start to compete with the queen for what space will be used for what. once they deny her space to lay. swarming prep takes a turn down the final stretch.

As a side note that I just have to mention. yesterday I was given two hives. one is a deep with a medium on top 8 frame set up that is struggling with a tiny cluster of bees. The other was 10 frame and 5 boxes tall. I had to get it reduced in size to move it but found that there are bees in 3 of the 5 boxes and a full box of honey. the last box at the very bottom was completely empty but has drawn comb. They are basically rescues for someone that had to move to Oregon. Now I will have to get a few more 8 fame boxes. I done did it and made the combination of boxes own fully confusing. Deeps and mediums in both 10 and 8 frame now.

The owner also has 100 lbs of honey inside the house that we cannot get access to. Very frustrating as I was going to sell that honey to keep my customers supplied and send him the money. It would come in handy to help him get up and running again at his new place.

Anyway I am way OT but just excited about getting these two hives.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

MattDavey said:


> Mike, I find it hard to understand how swarm preparation can start so soon after having snow.


Freak storms can occur *after* swarm season because of the jet stream. I have seen snow in June.

I believe temperature is the key to everything. Vegetation responds to temperature. That is how we determine an early or late spring. We can also have an early or late fall. We refer to a late fall as an Indian summer. Some cosmic rays or the aligning of the moon and the stars may cause the variations in seasons but the response I feel that triggers swarm prep is temperature (warming of the earth surface at location).


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Anyway I am way OT but just excited about getting these two hives.


Lucky you. Just plain down a couple of 2x12 in the shape of a frame and use them for blanks in the ten frame boxes. Use them on the bottom.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Bernard, Thank you for that last post. I found a few nuggets i had not heard before. Most interesting is that chilling will halt advancement to empty space. Cold is always a concern here even in mid summer. our nights will get down to the 40's or 50's even in July and August. chilling is always a concern. I am now wondering if by moving up frames of honey I was also unknowingly adding some thermal mass to that area as well.

I have not heard that a frame of brood equals three frames of bees either although have often thought about it. I have always just allowed for it to be one to one even though that did not sound likely to me. 3 to one is much higher than I would have dared guess.

As for the compacting of the brood nest. i don't tend to do much with the brood nest during build up. My rule of thumb is to stay away from it other than when getting a 5 frame nuc to expand and fill there first ten frame box. This winter I have been seeing several bits of information that cause me to reconsider that though. I will have to think on your description for a while to make sure I see the whole picture.

I do not tend to see the drone brood others mention but then i also use foundation a lot. I have only once seen my bees draw a frame with all large cells. Since then they will make a normal amount of drone comb and not enough to concern me. Drone brood is another thing I consider best left up to the bees. I do not think I have to manipulate everything they do to make another ounce of honey. If what I need is more honey I think it is best to let the bees be bees, produce what they will produce and just get another hive for anything more I need.

I am still very interested in everything I can do to help my bees thrive. I realize many if not most find all these fine details boring or unnecessary. But I don't, I find it is in such details great advancements in husbandry can be found. they are what make the difference in a good beekeeper and a great beekeeper.

Just from your post above. the addition of just one frame of brood increases the population of a hive by three frames of bees. That is not exactly a little difference. But you cannot think that you can make them fill every frame of a hive either. the issue is more like. how do you get a hive that already has a huge brood nest. to make one more or even two more frames of brood. if you can get two yo just got one more box of bees. It is very difficult to improve on good. But it can always be done.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Acebird said:


> I believe temperature is the key to everything. Vegetation responds to temperature.... the response I feel that triggers swarm prep is temperature (warming of the earth surface at location).


good point ace. in the short time i've been journaling first blooms, and contrasting the early spring of 2012 and the late spring of 2013, it's pretty obvious that temperature strongly affects the timing of the blooms, which in turn affects the timing of swarm season.

also, bernhard has observed egg laying rate is affected by temperature and has correlated this to swarming.

it's probably easier for the beekeeper to pay attention to what is blooming than it is to look at temperature, especially since (as you point out) temperature can fluctuate quite of bit at that time of year, (thanks walt).

this is going to be more obvious in those areas that experience a bimodal nectar flow, i.e. spring flow, summer dearth, fall flow such as in the southeast; and it may be less obvious in areas where the spring, summer, and fall flows overlap such as seen across the northern tier of states.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Lucky you. Just plain down a couple of 2x12 in the shape of a frame and use them for blanks in the ten frame boxes. Use them on the bottom.


Nice trick Ace,

I also tend to agree that temperature is a leading factor in swarming. Last year we only had two night that fell below freezing in the entire month of February. from early to mid February all of my bees where in build up. and they never stopped. I really wish i had had someone like Walt or someone more experienced with seeing swarm prep with me last year because although I was looking right at it I have the feeling there is much I did not see. I cannot clearly say yes they where beginning swarm prep on this date.

I found swarm cells on April 14th. I cannot recall they day they actually swarmed but it was shortly after that. maybe others can back track the timing of events. Since i destroyed those queen cells I lost the ability to time when they emerged. A mistake I know I know. I paid dearly for it.

Anyway if I give 5 days for the cells to emerge that means I found them around day 11. that means they where eggs on April 3rd. How all the rest of the process fits prior to that all i can say is it woudl have had to happen in 14 days to have been started at the equinox. And I was observing what I consider strong build up long before that. easily as much as two weeks prior to that I was already wondering how I could contain the growth long enough.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

MattDavey said:


> Mike, I find it hard to understand how swarm preparation can start so soon after having snow.


Matt,

Our main flow usually begins here around the first of May and with peaks and valleys will continue through June. Swarms begin to be cast in the first half of May, which coincides with the beginning of the spring flow. With overwintered colonies swarm preparation begins a few weeks earlier, which would be in mid-April. 

In April the weather turns fairly mild with daytime temps reaching into 50 deg F range and night temps in the 30's. But occasionally we will have a cold front come through and can have snowfall in April. In April we have Dandelion, Cherry trees, and other blooms available for the bees and it's during these few weeks in April that the colony explodes in population. It is also a time when we can have long periods of rain and with a very high number of idle bees congested in the boxes their attention turns to swarming. It's during this period when I will open the broodnest and add drawn supers. I've tried adding foundation and empty frames but have never been successful at getting the bees to draw new wax at this point. They always choose to contract the brood nest and backfill in preparation to swarm. 

March is the beginning of serious brood build up in the colonies. Maple, Willow, and other trees are blooming and fresh pollen is available for the bees when they have flying weather. The incoming pollen triggers brood expansion. During March the temps range from 40's in the day to 20's at night. Foraging days are erratic and during this period the bees will finish consuming their overwintered stores and will expand the brood nest into the empty cells. I've never had any luck getting the bees to draw new comb in March, I guess the temperatures are just too low for wax making. 

So that's my long winded overview. April is the key month here. A lot is changing and I have to be vigilant and stay on top of things or the bees are in the trees. I guess it's related to our local weather patterns and bloom cycles, but spring build up here is rapid and aggressive. It seems like overnight an average cluster turns into a boomer.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Depending on the weather pattern in any particular year that could exactly describe what happens here in TN - far to the south. And it isn't too far off on average.

We almost always have at least a few fair flying days every month though.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Yes David our bees get to poop more freely during the winter. If I was a bee I would like that.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

David LaFerney said:


> Depending on the weather pattern in any particular year


That is an important point. Weather and the bees don't use the calendar. Last year we had a long winter and delayed spring blooms. The entire spring cycle was delayed about 3 weeks later than average. The year before, we had a mild winter and early spring, and the pattern was 3 weeks earlier then usual. Recovering from shoulder surgery it took me by surprise that spring, and almost *all* of my colonies went into swarm prep 3 weeks early. Lots of swarms and splits that spring.

Ace is correct, the cycles revolve around temperature and bloom patterns.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

MattDavey said:


> What do you think is the cause of the start of swarm preparation in your area, and what sort of dates are you seeing that?
> 
> Thinking about, what are the external (elemental) signs that would cause swarm preparation to likely start? Temperature, amount of daylight, etc.


You asked Mike, but I'm going to give my 2 cents - unqualified as it may be. The days getting longer is surely a trigger to begin reproductive season. But I believe that what determines the rate and timing is foraging opportunity - Not blooms or temps alone. 

FE - Maple blooms here in February and produces plenty of nectar concurrent with plentiful pollen BUT there is usually a very limited opportunity for the bees to fly out to get it. It's too wet or cold most of the time. Lots of days it will be plenty warm, but it is rainy - or vice versa. When the conditions were unusually good to go out and take advantage of those early flows a couple of years ago (when my bees capped a good bit of maple honey) swarming commenced very early.

Also even if there isn't a lot of foraging opportunity outside of the hives if it is consistently warm enough for the bees to forage inside of the hives instead of clustering tightly on brood - that will surely hasten swarming of well stocked hives as well.

So either mild temps or dry weather could make swarming earlier - obviously mild + dry spring weather even more so.

I bet if you used weather service data to count the number of daylight hours when the conditions are good for foraging and matched it to bloom dates - and factored in long cold spells that curtail brood-nest expansion you could predict when swarming is likely to commence. 

Or you could just evaluate population growth and nectar storage patterns - like we already try to do.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> You asked Mike, but I'm going to give my 2 cents - unqualified as it may be. The days getting longer is surely a trigger to begin reproductive season. But I believe that what determines the rate and timing is foraging opportunity - Not blooms or temps alone.


When I spoke of temperature I was thinking ground temperature not air temperature. When the ground gets warm enough seeds germinate and sap runs in trees. From there it is a count down to blooms. If you wait till blooms for managing swarms you are too late I think. Your better off timing your swarm management by some bulb plant that pops out of the ground. I am going to note when our garlic shoots out of the ground next spring to see if that would be a good date.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> If you wait till blooms for managing swarms you are too late I think.


It depends on which blooms you are looking for. For me, different blooms are great benchmarks that give me a good indication of what is happening in the hive and when I need to act. 

When the Willows bloom in mid to late March I know it's time to get ready because they are expanding rapidly. When Dandelion starts to bloom a few weeks later, typically in mid April, it's time to start frame manipulation and supering to suppress swarm preparation. Apple bloom peak is usually during the first week of May. If I have not been paying attention, they will be swarming soon. Later in May will be Locust and Blackberry bloom and it will be weekly management as the bees begin to shift from swarm mode to establishment mode.

The blooms almost always indicate to me what activities are happening in the hive in general. If the blooms are early or later in the spring, the same colony mode is ongoing to match the bloom period. That's been my observation anyway.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very interesting mike. sounds like you are about one month or so later on the calendar than we are here.

i visited massillon a few times in my childhood, we had some family there.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Massillon is still a pretty nice place to settle down and raise a family. I grew up in Cleveland, so compared to that, I'm living in the "sticks". 

t: Sorry


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> very interesting mike. sounds like you are about one month or so later on the calendar than we are here.


Do you see a similar consistent relationship between blooms and colony activities in your area? 

Walt probably has some keen insight on the ties between bloom periods, temperature, and it's effect on the colony.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Do you see a similar consistent relationship between blooms and colony activities in your area?
> 
> Walt probably has some keen insight on the ties between bloom periods, temperature, and it's effect on the colony.


absolutely mike. the early build up here is on the maples and elms. the dogwoods and redbuds signal we're getting close, and swarm issue is linked to the locust and tulip poplar. 

as you observed there, we also saw several weeks difference in the timing of these blooms (and swarm issue) between 2012 and 2013.

the timeline in walt's manuscript is virtually identical to what i observe. he's a little north of me, but i'm at a slightly higher elevation.

i'm making it a point to keep more detailed notes regarding the blooms and colony operations.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I have been given this web page to tell me when you should spray apples and cherries. It tells what bug is hatching by the degree days. I actually inputs weather data for you and tells what is hatching out or blooming. There is a section on the site to create your own.
http://pnwpest.org/wea/weaexp.html
why is it that we cannot come up with an amount of degree days to determine swarming?


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Pulling up records for my swarming: 2011, June 12, 18, 26: 2012 July14: 2013 April 25 and 27. Now in 2013 records also show a record heat wave with 75 and sun for Easter. Big red plum, Peaches, and cherries were 16 days early. It does not compute to an April swarm date rather than a June or July date unless the degree days are considered. Since they use that data for bug hatch for fruit trees why not bees? BTW our major flow is early fruit in April and the entire country is blackberries (wild Himalayan) in Mid to end of June. We have nothing after that worth speaking of.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

minz said:


> why is it that we cannot come up with an amount of degree days to determine swarming?


I think it is way better then a calendar day but degree days are based on air temp. The air has no hysteresis. It changes with the wind. The ground temperature changes gradually and can increase from sun exposure while the air is cold. I see snow melting on the parking lot or even the grass while the air temp is 5 or so degrees below freezing. I think if you did nothing more than stick a thermometer in the ground about 6 inches and recorded the temp you would have a better indicator.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I just looked up my area in the degree day data. Not sure i am reading it accurately but it is showing for this date last year we where running 21 days ahead of the 30 year average. My personal observations put it at that to 30 days ahead. Depending on what I was observing. Elm tees dropped their seed 3 weeks earlier than normal for example.

The station I am looking at is only a couple blocks from my house. I actually know where this station physically is.

It is showing we are currently 27 days ahead of 2013 and 60 days ahead of the 30 year average. Now that sound more accurate to me. I woudl agree we are getting weather more typical of March Than January for this area. It also means my bees could be building up if they have anything not build up on. I see no sign anything is budding or blooming yet.

We are very much in early spring type weather here and it has been holding for several weeks so far.

It is saying we area at 133 degree days. not at all sure what that means.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks Mike and David and others for you replies. Now to digest it all.

Interesting, Swarm season seems to coinside with Apples flowering here as well...

(But one Of my apple trees seemed to flower twice this year. The weather has been a bit strange. Now we've just had a heatwave after a cold and wet spring.)


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