# Wonder if Dee still believes this?



## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Yep, sure do still believe it and still have the USDA government files on hand showing the importations of AHB used in government breeding programs for years.

It's like saying down in S. Africa now you are Americanized with your bees. 

Never have seen the bad traits with our bees, but then we use no dopes of chemicals, drugs, acids, essential oils, and melted down our big combs. All things that make bees out of balance and cranky!

So you Texans still believe the political ticket no matter how many bees you lose? Nothing wrong with working with a natural system you know. Been done for millions of years. 

Yep, see nothing wrong with the bees. Never have and don't believe I ever will.

Sincerely,

Dee A. Lusby


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

Dee, 
Please continue to believe as you wish - all I can say is that if you don't see a big difference between AHB and your typical European honeybee, then either you've never been around AHB or you've conscientiously choosen to defend a ten year old quote which has obviously turned out to NOT be the case. (I'm not talking about your "documents" here - I couldn't care less about that aspect - I am talking about the aggressive genetics of AHB being dominate).

Hopefully you Arizonians aren't "buying" Dee's political ticket! There is a big difference between AHB behavior and European honeybee behavior.


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Well when talking african bees what specific race are we talking? Africa is a big place! Are we talking about montacola, egyptian, scutellata, punic, and other races? I believe egyptian bees have been in US since 1866 and punics were brought northeast USA a little later. So african bees have been here for quite some time now with little dramatized impact pumped up by the media (they don't even know it). In this veiw Dee is correct. But I think you are specifically talking scuttelata here are you not txbeeguy? I don't know if I exactly know what being so called "africanized" means as there are many african races. I think its a big mistake to associate african = aggresive. For example if the entire state of AZ where africanized by montacola what does that have to do with aggressiveness? The term AHB's is such a broad statement. Now this isn't to say that scutellata isn't a more aggresive race of bee. I guess my point is that talking AHB's (all races) doesn't = aggressive evil killer bees. With that said Dee is likely talking about all african races where you are talking just one of many.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Just because a colony is NOT aggressive does not mean it does not have African genes. Just because a conly IS aggressive does not mean it DOES have African genes.

Certainly I've never seen such vicious bees as I had a year and a half ago and they meet all the criteria as far as behaviour but my guess is that they had those genes the generation before they got mean.


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

> The term AHB's is such a broad statement.

I don't think it's a broad statement. 

It has ONE broadly recognized meaning (in the popular press as well as among beekeepers). AHB (Africanized Honey Bee) means the progeny of that race of Apismellifera scutellata brought to the western hemisphere many years ago. I dont think anyone is saying "African = aggressive" what I do know to be true is that, "Africanized = aggressive". 

> I don't know if I exactly know what being so called "africanized" means as there are many african races. 

No one is denying there are multiple races of honeybees in Africa. You say you dont know what being "Africanized" means. Again, in the popular press as well as among the vast pool of American beekeepers, if you ask them what is meant by the term "Africanized" honeybee, they would tell you in no uncertain terms they mean the progeny of Apismellifera scutellata (i.e., AHB).

So you can play word semantics all you want but it doesnt change the commonly accepted understanding of the terms.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>As for the 130 documented killer bee attacks on humans so far in Texas - this is "just normal" for honeybees, Lusby said. She said no formal bee sting records were kept before killer bees arrived there 2-1/2 years ago, so no one can say that is a higher attack record than before.

Normal?
Do the beekeepers in Texas refer to that temperment in bees normal?

Ian

[This message has been edited by Ian (edited October 21, 2003).]


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Txbeeguy I don't mean to under play or make word games here. I'm not even saying that hybidized scutellata aren't aggresive bees.I guess what I was trying to say is that the term AHB is a very poor choice of words due to the fact that there are many african races. I realize what the coined term means. My point is that any african race that is hybridized with EHB is technically africanized. This is reguardless of what the media's coined term. As beekeepers we should be a little more specific as what the race we mean. I just think that the term africanized is too general. Please note that I'm not denying the exisistence of the coined AHB, but saying that the term AHB "can" imply other than just scuttelata. I didn't mean to imply any more or less than this.

Clay


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

WITHOUT furthering the word play and thus referring to the original statement, I will add my comment.
I have never had a "africanized hive" that I know of. I did have a particularly nasty hive I've referred to a number of times last year. As nasty as this hive was, I have never and could not imagine the video documantation of "africanized" bees that I've seen being fake or made up. To suggest that aggressive "africanized bees" do not exist, is blinding. And to suggest that it was somehow fabricated as a govermental spending ploy, is somehow odd to me. To say that the problem does not exist because I have not had any in my apiaries is absurd. Never been to China, but I'm sure its there.

I've seen video on the Weaver family in Texas and others, and the procedures that they implement to combat the spread of "africanized" bees. And yes I believe that through the migration north, and the breeding with other strains, that the "africanized" bee will over time blend nicely as a more productive strain for beekeepers. There is a distinct difference in what a normal hive and a "africanized" hive will do and how they react.

And by the way, where does culling of drone brood come into play, when referring to "doing things the natural way". Referring to the way bees are, that they have been for millions of years, would tend to make me think that NO manipulation is needed or accomplished. And yet manipulations of any level, is not the way things have been for millions of years. Are we not all "exploiting a given enviroment but also decimating it to a moonscape", on some level. I'll accredit Point of View contributor, Yoon Sik Kim for that last comment.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Cant remember where I saw or read it (my mind must be slipping)but there is a guy in southern cal doing bee removals .He is takeing the africanized(ok scuttelized) bees out to his yards and says they are more productive than Euros and dont need any mite treatments.I dont recall what he said about the temper but cant imagine it was good.There is so much conflicting information about these bees that I will just have to wait before giving any opinions.I hope their temper will moderate in time.But they are here now and will have to be dealt with.I appreciate hearing reports from those dealing with them right now-keep us posted!


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Hi all,

Interesting reading what you have all posted.

Yes, there are many strains/races of bees that were brought to the USA early on and without problem. 

It is strange too that AHBs have not also been found in domesticated managed colonies by beekeepers within the State of Arizona.

Many beekeepers that come see our bees feel that they are no different then bees they themselves keep and many feel that they are in fact gentler.

I know that Canada just opened up their border to USA bees and in doing so said they don't see the threat of AHBs to be too great to not let USA bees back in for their beekeepers to use. 

What is agressive to some, are not to others. What is AHB in name to some is not to others also. 

But it makes for good stories and discussions. Some of us have lived the talk and walked the walk for decades as the name for usage became more popular and know it's full history. Many new beekeepers do not and probably never will and are free to believe what they will.

Agressive bees are never to be tolerated. Don't think they ever really have been, for you cannot make bees with them in actuality. You want bees you can work for production and make more splits from.

So what else do you all feel is agressive bees? How do you breed to get rid of the problem if it is a problem to you?

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

It is amazing that the original importations into Brazil could have had such a far reaching effect.Whoever made the original selections in Africa must have picked the worst of the worst as far as temper goes.Seems like they could have looked a little harder and found some better tempered bees to ship to Dr.Kerr.These bees are surely breeding to some extent with the bees being moved around for almond pollination here,but I havent heard a thing about any agressive bees and in fact mine are gentler than ever.I personally wont tolerate vicious bees.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Whoever made the original selections in Africa must have picked the worst of the worst as far as temper goes.Seems like they could have looked a little harder and found some better tempered bees to ship to Dr.Kerr.

If you read the notes by the USDA which was doing similar experiments, they couldn't keep the viscious streak out either. It would pop back up after a couple of generations. I don't think they were dealing with the same bees as Dr. Kerr.

As far as what I consider mean bees, the ones I had a year and a half ago would attack you as you approched the hive from the back. They would pour out of the hole on the inner cover with the banana smell strong. Then if you pulled the inner cover, they would boil out of the hive. They would not leave when you left the hive, but would cling to your clothes stinging everywhere they could get enough purchase. Even with a full suit on it was scary. I've taken a lot of hives out of trees and houses and never had them that angry and all I did to these was open the top. I did not kill them. I split them up into smaller units so I could find the queen and manage them and I requeened them. The smaller units weren't as reactive, but were still mean. It took a month or so for them to get much better.

The original queens were Buckfasts and quite nice, but the next generation were the most viscious bees I've ever seen. When every bee in the hive is trying to kill you, the banana smell is rife and they won't back off even after you've walked hundreds of yards away, I don't see how they can get more viscious than that.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I caught a swarm once(not from my hives)that was like that.I brought them home and as soon as they were settled in they began to search out and sting dogs and people well away from the hive.If you walked within 20 feet of the hive they would boil out.I got them out of here as soon as I realized their nature.I put them in an outyard and right after that a bear came in and destroyed them .I was happy.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I never thought I'd be happy for a bear loss, but I can understand your feelings.









That's the way these were. I would be sittin on my back porch on the oppisite side of the house from the hives a good 200 yards from them and they would sting me unprovoked. I'd never seen anything like it and I hope I don't see it again, but I won't count on it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I will say that it's one of the reasons I don't open a hive without at least a veil on. If you've ever seen bees like that you don't want to be totally unprotected.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>I don't think they were dealing with the same bees as Dr. Kerr.
From memory(a faulty thing)I thought the USDA lab was receiving scut drone semen from Dr.Kerr to test the viability of shipping it .I was told by one Cal. breeder that he raised some queens from this stock but problems developed with wintering ability of these bees.This was many years ago and he has long since passed on.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>The original queens were Buckfasts and quite nice, but the next generation were the most viscious bees I've ever seen. When every bee in the hive is trying to kill you, the banana smell is rife and they won't back off even after you've walked hundreds of yards away, I don't see how they can get more viscious than that.


Most of you know that I too had the same nasties.

This exact topic came up at the Kansas Honey Producers meeting last weekend, during a Q&A session with Marla Spivak after one of her presentations.

She said that it was impossible for a queen breeder (of Buckfasts in Texas) to guarantee that a queen is not bred to an AHB. The only source for Buckfasts are in Texas, and that the breeders do a good job of flooding the area with good stud stock but it still leaves the possibility that a very small percentage of ferral studs are still available for breeding.

BTW, she likes the term that Tom Glen (EAS 2002) gave to the male bees, Stud. It is a better term for a part of the breeding equation that is JUST as important as the queen itself. She also promotes using drone comb and insureing that our favorite colonys are producing enough studs for our own needs.

I have found as a user of Permacomb, that when I put it in a deep, the lower part is filled with stud comb. I will be practicing this management with my best hives from now on.

So, Hooserhiver, your a stud in my book, so where are we going to set up our yard?

Studly Doright


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I know that Canada just opened up their border to USA bees

Dee, when did the boarder open? Can't find anyone to conferm this. Will you exagerate a little on what you know..

Ian


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

"And to suggest that it was somehow fabricated as a govermental spending ploy, is somehow odd to me."

Odd, yes. Believable, yes.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Texas is not the only source of Buckfast bees. There are several Ontario queenbreeders that will ship them to USA.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hello Everyone,

Don't know much about the bees in Arizona or the politics, but all those thousands of beekeepers south of the border don't have much money or much of a political agenda. Yet, they have changed their ways of beekeeping since the ahb spread. Something has changed or they wouldn't have. A very interesting article to that effect appears in the last American Bee Journal. A very interesting read!

Some of the changes have been for the better and others have been for the worse, but the unusual aggressiveness of the cross is generally expoused. The bees can be as gentle as any but can change with little notice and become lethal.

I worked for a guy who went to Brazil to study and observe the AHB before it became a resident of the US. He brought back some very interesting stories/observations. Agression is not the only unique characteristic of this bee.

Beekeepers often work the hives in shorts but the approach, prep and working are done very differently than we do with our honeybees in the US. A helper is employed just to run the smoker which is hugh with bellows that require two arms to pump! He brought one back and it produces more smoke in a single puff than I use in a whole beeyard!

I have tried bees from Africanized areas in the US. One of these hives was as aggressive as Michaels hive and killed small birds that were flying overhead. They attacked the black molding on my truck and ran me inside it. It took about 30 seconds and continued the rest of the afternoon. All this after only removing the migratory lid without smoke!

These bees had some of the other behaviors associated with african bees. I think they were africanized.

Fortunately these bees were out in the country about 1/4 mile from the nearest road. I stayed the rest of the day to make sure no one got into trouble along that road. What if some kid riding a bike on the road were attacked. Yikes!

The threat of AHB or any aggressive hives should not be minimized. Beekeepers should be the first to protect the public from any kind of bee nuisance. It's a duty that can insure our value to a society which is now far removed from it's agricultural roots. 

Regards
Dennis


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

"And by the way, where does culling of drone brood come into play, when referring to "doing things the natural way"."

It comes into play because it is not natural to have a large primate remove combs regularly for his/her enjoyment. This regular comb removal inevitably leads to damaged combs sooner or later, and this damaged comb is often repaired as drone comb. This leads to an "unnatural" amount of drone comb in the colony, and culling pares it down to a more "natural" level.

------------------
Rob Koss


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## beeman 202 (Jan 8, 2003)

Anyone who doubts the reality and severity of the temprement change that "Africanized bees" bring has got their head in the sand. My wife is from Panama, and we frequently visit Panama. In the past, hives with European strains were kept in the back yard, 20-30 yards from the homes. Many people had a hive or two to supplement the income and provide honey for home use. Everyone destroyed all their hives when the "African" strains moved in. Severe stinging incidences were common. Now only a few people who have transportation---(trucks) can keep bees, as the bees now are kept a long ways from human habitation. Since most people in Panama are poor and don't have transportation, they have simply given up beekeeping and destroyed their hives.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

The USA has a lot more hives than Panama,so the question is what happens when these bees migrate into an area with many thousands of European hives?What is the situation in Southern Cal?Anyone there feel these bees are taking over or are they just being absorbed into the general population.I dont follow this as closely as some as there are more immediate threats to deal with.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Ikeepbees,
Knowing that there are people, who think aliens come all the way to earth to do nothing more than crop circles, lets me believe humans can believe anything. Some even tried to catch the last comet to heaven. With our technology, we have troubles going to the moon. But I can imagine in some far off galaxy, some alien asking " So gorp, what are you doing this weekend?" "Well I'm going to zip off to that place called earth, and do a crop circle to play with their heads". Maybe you believe this also because you "read" it somewhere.

As for the comment about "the way things have been for millions of years,".....stay with me on this....you can't say you do things the "natural way" as has been for a million years and also keep bees in hives, perform manipulations and control them in other ways, and say that your way is somehow "natural", or the way its been for millions of years. No human keeps bees the "natural" way. Period.

To say that culling is needed for drones due to the amounts of drone comb made in response of beekeeper manipulations, I wonder what you do to your hives to cause this much damage?

I'll believe the thousands of reports on aggressive bees, beekeeper testamonies, documented papers, and years of research. You can believe, up till now, the only person I've heard so far (see first post), that there is no such thing as "africanized" bees, or that its a goverment spending ploy.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Heres where they are,anyway. http://www.lawestvector.org/images/beerangeus.jpg


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

loggermike,
It had been hoped (in the early years) that once they expanded their territory to reach the U.S., they would, in effect, run "into a wall" of European managed colonies. And this "wall" would stop them and force them to assimilate (kinda 'Bork-ish', huh?). However, good 'ole Mother Nature has this idea about dominate genes and recessive genes and most of her "laws" are not too flexible. So, as it's turned out, the aggressive (really, defensive) characteristic/behavior has proven to be genetically dominate. Thus, as they move into an area, they're proving not to become more mellow as was once hoped. So the danger becomes even more widespread since AHB drones can mate with European queens and some (or all) of her offspring can become hybridized AHB.
The upside (if one can be found) of all of this, is that research on the South American continent has pretty well established their range - which is very temperature dependent. I don't have the figures readily at hand at the moment, but suffice it to say that they don't (can't) stay permanently established where the average winter temperature is below 'x(?)' degrees. But as we all know, some Winters are colder and some are warmer. So I believe the South American research came to the conclusion there is about a two hundred mile wide range where they "freeze back" during cold winters and expand into during warm winters. So I expect we'll see a similar two hundred mile wide band more-or-less establish itself in north America also.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Ok,doesnt look like they will be a problem in the areas I operate in.Trucking those kind of bees around for pollination would be a nightmare!I wonder what is slowing the eastern migration towards Florida?


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

The last "projected" territory map I saw (a few years ago), showed pretty much all the southern and southwest states included. And a fairly long, narrow region going up both the east coast and west coast (as I recall, the west coast projection was almost to Oregon but didn't reach inland very far). My area (Dallas) was projected to be either permanently covered or at least within the 200 or so, mile band I mentioned earlier. This has since come to pass.

Your question about their slow expansion east has been probably the greatest mystery concerning the AHB. I've read several hypothesis why this is the case but so far, at least to me, nothing makes sense. This aspect of their migration certainly wasn't expected.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

What bee in their right mind would want to go through Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama, just to get to Florida. I dont blame them.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Actually the research I've seen indicates, if you think in terms of EHB's that we raise which are on enlarged cells, the the dominance of the AHB's has a lot to do with small drones that can outfly the oversized EHB drones. Small cell could counter a lot of this.

Also the survival seems more related to small cell than to genetics of the AHB although genetics may also play into it. The shorter time to emergence is a product of cell size, as I and others have observed and measured in EHB's on small cell. And this shorter time from capping to emergence plays a big role in the AHB's fighting the mites.


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

Hello BjornBee,

"So gorp, what are you doing this weekend?" "Well I'm going to zip off to that place called earth, and do a crop circle to play with their heads". Maybe you believe this also because you "read" it somewhere."

You're right. The fact that I believe something is POSSIBLE indicates that I must have read it somewhere, and being unable to think for myself I believe it to be 100% true. The fact that you and I may disagree on that something means you need to point out what an idiot I must be, and do it quickly. 

"As for the comment about "the way things have been for millions of years,".....stay with me on this...."

I don't believe I made any comment at all about "the way things have been for millions of years", but thanks for reminding me to stay with you because my slow moving mind was having a hard time focusing...

"No human keeps bees the "natural" way. Period."

C'mon, really? gorp and I could never have figured this one out...again thanks for the info.

"To say that culling is needed for drones due to the amounts of drone comb made in response of beekeeper manipulations, I wonder what you do to your hives to cause this much damage?"

My thoughts on why there would be more than a natural amount of drone comb in one of these unnnatural hives. It never occured to me that experts such as yourself don't ever do any damage to any of your combs, so it's probably just my inept clumsiness. Please ignore my ideas, and write them off to someone that just "read it somewhere."

"You can believe, up till now, the only person I've heard so far (see first post), that there is no such thing as "africanized" bees, or that its a goverment spending ploy."

BjornBee, I did not indicate in either of these posts what I think about the ahb debate. I did allow that I think "spending ploys" are possible. But somehow, you have managed to get inside my mind (you know, the one that reads but does not think,) and figure out what I believe. Thanks for that, and thanks for quickly pointing out how wrong I am in such a positive, constructive manner.

And thanks also for taking away just a little bit of the fun of coming to this forum. 


------------------
Rob Koss


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

ikeepbees,
You have responded not once but twice to my original post on this strip. And a further post after my second post. Please realize that you do not have to acknowledge or respond to my raving babbling.

Since my last post on this topic, I have been reprimanded by "administration" for comments on another forum. I have stated that I would not take part in such discussions again. I have come to the realization that others may not enjoy jabbing back and forth, some may take it personal, and while others may just have thin skin. It may also be less than whats expected from administration.

I being "one", am truly sorry for outwieghing the comments of 1054 other members. I will make an effort of not responding to your further posts so that you may again fully enjoy this forum and focus on the other 1054 members. Please accept my apology. 



[This message has been edited by BjornBee (edited October 31, 2003).]


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

Anyone get a chance to read that article in the ABJ on Africans in Mexico? For me, it's hard to question the experiences and observations of all of those affected beekeepers.

Now, I don't know whether the bees in Arizona are African or native or what. But the physiography, climate and even some of the plants are close relatives of those found in the African bee's native range.

I would think that if the southern Arizona region would be a most hospitable place for African bees compared to other locations in the US. As these bees were imported into this country a handful of times in the last 100 years, maybe their offspring had naturalized there. The area might also suit the iberian bee as well.

Another choice my be that a native bee,as Dee asserts, is aclimatized to that region. Chances are it would in some way resemble bees aclimitized to similar environments.

Maybe not much difference exists between the naturalized or natural bees in that area and the AHBs that have migrated north into the area. Could this explain the difference in Dee's observations and those of beekeepers farther south?

Regards
Dennis


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Could this explain the difference in Dee's observations and those of beekeepers farther south?


There you go thinkin' again...

Bill


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

Dee honey, 
Here's a guy in your home state that you probably should give your, "no such thing as an AHB" talk to: 
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10458196&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id=222087&rfi=6 

Rick Gibson, listen up!


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I have been reading Mark Winstons "Killer Bees-The Africanized Honey Bee in the Americas".It is a fascinating account of their studies in Central and South America.It seems to confirm pretty much the negative comments on this bee.Aggressiveness,extreme swarming and absconding are its survival traits that make it something we dont want in our hives.I am still interested in any comments from southern Cal. as to its behaviour in that area.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10458196&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id=222087&rfi=6 

"It's not possible to coexist with wild bees."

Boy, I know lots of people who have bees in their house, their trees etc. Someone should tell them. I know an older lady who has had bees in her house for at least the last fifty years. Wait! If she's had bees in her house the last fifty years, she IS coexisting with wild bees. Imaging that! But it's in the news, so it has to be true.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

That statement struck me as false,also,since it isnt true if we are talking about European races.But in the context of the feral bees being almost totally Africanized in his area,it may be true.Apparently the feral hives tend to revert to almost a pure African type in tropical areas because the survival traits of this bee make it THE dominant source of drones available for mating virgins of whatever breed.The hybridization with European types becomes more pronounced as they enter more temperate climates where the European survival traits make them the dominant bee.So that is what I am trying to find out,how much of the original 'bad' traits are getting bred out as they meet the huge number of European bees in the temperate areas.I think that must be the limit of their range,but there must be a lot of hybrids right on the edge of the range.The article from Arizona seems to confirm that as he says it is hard to distinguish between them based on physical chracteristics.Winstons book points out that in tropical Central and South American areas the feral bee is almost identical to Scutt bees in the area of Africa that the original importations came from.


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

Yeah, I agree with the article. I thought it was very well written and generally "hit the nail right on the head". It was SO MUCH better than most "general consumption" type honeybee articles you come across. I, personally, wouldn't be too critical of the article - seems like he did a pretty good job to me.
-- 
Perhaps he should have used the term AHB in lieu of his more generic term ("wild") but since the article was entitled, "Africanized..." it wasn't a great leap of faith to assume that's what he really meant. And I certainly agree, there is no living with an Africanized colony in close proximity - his advise is pretty sound if you ask me.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Ok here is an article that deals with Africanized bees potential impact on commercial pollination in Ca. http://bees.ucr.edu/sinaloa.html 
IMHO the consensus opinion on the nature of this bee is pretty well established.Its a ***** in the 'pure' form but with with intensive culling and selection,the hybrids can be managed(but we probably wont like their temper)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Perhaps he should have used the term AHB in lieu of his more generic term ("wild") but since the article was entitled, "Africanized..." it wasn't a great leap of faith to assume that's what he really meant. And I certainly agree, there is no living with an Africanized colony in close proximity - his advise is pretty sound if you ask me.

I agree there is no living with AHB's around. Been there. Done that. But I think he's assuming all "wild bees" are AHB and they are not. I think feral survivors are one of our most valuable assets.


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

I think it's evident from his article that he personally, knows not all feral bees are AHB; but yes, the premise of his article was the advice to consider all such bees as (potentially) AHB. While this may come across to you and me (as beekeepers) as being a little "heavy handed" - I'm not sure it's bad advice for the general public (for whom he wrote the article). 

> I think feral survivors are one of our most valuable assets.

I don't disagree with your statement if you're talking about the potential "good" genetics they may offer.
-- 
One of the great questions I've been waiting to see how it 'plays out' is the Varroa mite verses the AHB. Would AHB continue to expand their territory in the face of the Varroa onslaught? ...or would the Varroa decimate AHB feral colonies like they did the European feral colonies a few years ago?

But now that some {apparently} Varroa resistant genetics have been introduced to various managed hives, will the resistance transfer over to feral AHBs (thus allowing for their continued expansion throughout the south and west)? In any event, it will be most interesting to see what happens over the next decade...


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## briancady413 (Dec 8, 2003)

Could Lusby's bees resist AHB, and have some thelytoky, by having some A. mellifera capensis parentage?

Maybe these traits will accompany some intriguing SHB resistance in LUS bees as well.

Brian Cady

[This message has been edited by briancady413 (edited December 30, 2003).]


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## briancady413 (Dec 8, 2003)

Maybe LUS bee thelytoky prevents hive Africanization - like South African Cape bee beekeeppers, perhaps the Lusby's have been using virgin laying queens all these years without visible indication.

Mother Mary!

[This email is at least partly in jest]

Brian Cady


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think Dee has her theories. The most prominent and likely one, I think, is that they are native American honey bees. If they DO have any cape bee genes in them, they got expressed in a usuful positive manner rather than a destructive manner.


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

Michael, 
What do you mean by the term "native American honey bees"? (Please define)
--
Also, I note the article you sighted is well over ten years old. Do you know of any later (follow-up) research on this supposed thelytoky?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What do you mean by the term "native American honey bees"? (Please define)

I think it's self defining. Bees that were native to America.
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000039.html 

Look at the "EXCERPT FROM THE HISTORY OF MEXICO"

>Also, I note the article you sighted is well over ten years old. Do you know of any later (follow-up) research on this supposed thelytoky?

I do not know of any other research on the matter. I would not tend to call conclusions from research done by E.H. Erickson Jr. of the USDA Carl Hayden Bee Research lab "supposed".

Thelytoky has been noted in European honey bees as an exception that occurs on occasion. I cannot say for sure that I have observed it but occasionally I have had no other simple explanation for a queen cell in a previously queenless hive with a laying worker. At the time I was wondering if they stole an egg from somewhere.








http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/agriculture/entomology/beekeeping/bee-l/log9901c.txt (look for Thelytoky)
http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/thelytoky.html 


(see also L.E. Snelgrove's queen rearing book)

Here are some studies that show that our commercial stock is unrealted to the feral stock. Why? Why wouldn't their drones mate with commercial stock?
http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/jee1995.htm


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

I note a major point of semantics: no one is saying that 'Apis' was native to the American continent; only that "honey bees" were. So, in that regard, I agree. There were "honeybees" here - they were just a different species than Apis and not capable of breeding with Apis.

But as applicable to specifically Apis:

> Look at the "EXCERPT FROM THE HISTORY OF MEXICO" 

Yep, that was written 130 years (minimum) AFTER the first "documented" European honeybees where brought over on an English ship to an east coast port (1620). And most probably at least 100+ years AFTER Spanish settlers began their settlement of Mexico. 
While I don't personally know of any firm evidence that sights Spanish settlers having brought over Apis by the 1530's, I'd nevertheless say it's a good bet they had! (They had a 100+ year ahead start on the English in settling the north American continent). 
So while some may elect to believe that Apis' existence on the north American continent pre-dates European settlement, that is not the prevailing judgment in most of the scientific and historical community. 
--
> I would not tend to call conclusions...

I very carefully looked that article over even before I posted my earlier comment, and was actually looking for any "conclusions" they were drawing in that article and there weren't any! (They had a section called "Discussions" and one called "Results" but did not offer any "Conclusions" as is usual with most scientific papers). That is the main reason I asked if there had been any follow-up studies done - I wanted to read about any "conclusions" that may have been reached. 
Let me clarify my use of the term "supposed" from my earlier posting. As best I could tell from the article they had identified only one successful queen that had been raised from several queenless colonies under study. And Michael, I agree with you: I too, have had colonies requeen themselves in a most mysterious way (at least, that I couldn't readily explain). But to say these particular bees under study (LUS) have any special thelytoky-capable genetic strain is a stretch. And I note the article certainly didn't arrive at that "conclusion". It was from that perspective that I used the term 'supposed thelytoky' - nothing was proved and no conclusions about thelytoky genetics were drawn.


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

> Here are some studies that show that our commercial stock is unrealted to the feral stock. 

Funny, I didn't get that at all from the article.

This is a quote from the article you sighted:
> The extent of gene flow between feral and commercial honey bee populations is unknown... 
and
> Gene flow between commercial and feral populations likely has occured through swarming and open matings... 

These comments certainly don't reflect a belief that matings between feral Apis and "managed" Apis don't occurr.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I did not mean that they never occur. Here is a quote from the study:

"This is significantly different (X2=63.1, P<0.001) than the feral population of the southern United States, where 36.7% of 692 feral colonies had the A. m. mellifera/iberica haplotype (Schiff et al. 1994). The lack of A. m. mellifera haplotypes in the commercial population is indicative of restricted gene flow between feral and commercial populations."

Which indicates that there is some but a "restricted" flow of genetics between the two.

If they are all the EHB then wouldn't you expect an even exchange? If the small drone theory of the AHB expansion is true, then since the feral EHB drones are also smaller, you would expect the ferals to have an edge there.

I am certainly not claiming this proves anything. But it brings up a lot of questions.


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