# Beginner Questions - Alternatives To Sugar Water



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

You kind of already answered your question; your choices are sugar water or honey. Pick whichever one you think is more healthy. Sugar solution is not *un*healthy for bees and their is a lot of debate as to whether honey is better that sugar, depending on the source of the honey. When I do feed, I use sugar.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

3iris9 said:


> Hello! I'm planning on beginning my beekeeping journeys with a DIY top bar hive.
> 
> I might go with collecting a local swarm which is the most attractive option for starting a colony in my opinion.
> As far as I know, a fresh swarm would not need feeding, correct?
> ...


A swarm would probably need feeding.

Feeding honey from another hive is a really good way to transfer diseases.

You can buy organic white sugar, if you want to pay the price. You can buy crystal white sugar which is probably made from GMO sugar beets. I split the difference and buy pure cane sugar.

Do not use brown sugar or molasses as they are toxic to bees. 

If you add a touch of apple cider vinegar to the sugar water it will decrease the ph and make it easier to digest. You will not be eating the honey that is made from the sugar water anyway.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Feeding the bees either of the regular table sugars if fine. They build up, and they overwinter well on the syrup, and there is no indication of health issues. You can add things such as vinegar, but the bees will adjust the ph on their own without our help.

If you want to learn beekeeping with the fewest problems, go with the standard Langstroth equipment. It is also best to forget the preconceived ideas you may have about their management and care. You do not have the experience necessary to make those decisions now, you may have it in two years, or you may decide to quit. Either way Langstroth equipment is easy to sell, the other styles, not so easy.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

It all depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Are you wanting honey from the hive? How much are you willing to spend to get it (supplies, money and time)? You've got no experience with beekeeping yet. If you're okay with feeding them honey from an unknown source that could infect them, or refusing to feed them sugar water because of your lifestyle so be it. However, imposing your lifestyle before learning how to keep bees successfully may detrimental to the lives of the bees in your respective hive. That's some interesting irony.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

3iris9 said:


> Hello! I'm planning on beginning my beekeeping journeys with a DIY top bar hive.


Welcome to Beesource.

My advice is to buy a nuc that you don't have to feed. Most likely it will be treated and fed sugar but if you get through the first year all the bees treated and fed will be dead except the queen (hopefully). The next year you can build or have ready that top bar hive and expand the bees into it being as pure and natural as you want to be. There is no guarantee that a swarm you find has not been fed or treated. More than likely it has.


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## dcaylor (Sep 22, 2014)

The best thing you can do for your bees is to keep the colonies strong. Supplemental feeding of sugar is a great way to encourage them to build up and get them through nectar dearths. When the colonies are strong, it seems pests and disease are less of a problem. As previously noted, feeding honey from other bees is generally not a good idea. I would recommend doing what you can to help them build their stores, and then if you don't want to feed sugar after they are well established, ensure you don't take too much of their honey for yourself. You can put a lot of effort and money into "organic" ways to feed, but the moment they take nectar from the pesticide treated flower or genetically modified crop it really will be all for naught.


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## 3iris9 (May 28, 2015)

dsegrest said:


> A swarm would probably need feeding.
> 
> Feeding honey from another hive is a really good way to transfer diseases.
> 
> ...


Ahh, I see. 
I guess I'll have to settle for pure cane or organic sugar no matter what. 
At least I'll be able to split hives in the future and start them 100% naturally later down the road. 
I read about the toxicity of unrefined sugars also, so I knew that was out of the question. 

Thank's for the info!



D Coates said:


> It all depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Are you wanting honey from the hive? How much are you willing to spend to get it (supplies, money and time)? You've got no experience with beekeeping yet. If you're okay with feeding them honey from an unknown source that could infect them, or refusing to feed them sugar water because of your lifestyle so be it. However, imposing your lifestyle before learning how to keep bees successfully may detrimental to the lives of the bees in your respective hive. That's some interesting irony.


I'd like to keep them in the least intrusive way possible, because I'll be living completely off grid in a year or two. 
I'll be harvesting honey and wax when possible, and keeping them for pollination of my gardens. 

The top bar seems like the way to go, because it yields both honey and wax, and is the most passive system.

I understood the concept of infected honey from another source, but I did suggest using the package colonies own honey. 
Sort of like the concept of a nuc without comb. Would this still be impractical? 

Also, what are the chances of a local supplier being able to provide me with a top bar nuc?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

let us know in 2yrs how it worked out for ya.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Find a local beekeeper who utilizes top bar hives and you will be on your way to finding a top bar nuc.

Tom


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"As far as I know, a fresh swarm would not need feeding, correct?"

I've trapeed or captured about 20 swarms this year, and I don't feed them. I would if they appeared lethargic. Where I am, swarms most often occur when there is nectar and pollen available. Being patient and not trying to push the bees much faster than what they and their environment work out works for my purposes. Others have different goals and different judgment than I do. Many have more years of experience.

"would it be possible for me to feed them honey straight from the comb?"

There is a risk of some pretty bad stuff. I occasionally transfer a frame of honey from one of my own hives to another one for certain purposes. I leave enough honey in the hives for reasonably foreseeable conditions. I don't feed sugar syrup, but I would before I would let bees starve. 

"Another idea I had was asking a local bee supplier to build a "package" and give me honey frames from the same colony so I could feed them their own honey."

That seems reasonable, particularly if the package is made from a single hive.

"Let me know your thoughts!"

Keep it as simple and, frankly, as standard as you can as you begin. There will be plenty of time to experiment and, if you choose, individualize as you observe and learn from the bees and from other beekeepers.


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## 3iris9 (May 28, 2015)

Riverderwent said:


> "As far as I know, a fresh swarm would not need feeding, correct?"
> 
> I've trapeed or captured about 20 swarms this year, and I don't feed them. I would if they appeared lethargic. Where I am, swarms most often occur when there is nectar and pollen available. Being patient and not trying to push the bees much faster than what they and their environment work out works for my purposes. Others have different goals and different judgment than I do. Many have more years of experience.
> 
> ...


Catching a swarm still seems like the best option. I'd feed them organic white sugar water if absolutely necessary. 
As far as finding a swarm, do you think I would have better luck contacting the local "beekeepers association" or rather, making friends with a bee removal service? 
I really don't know how to go about finding one. I live in SW Florida, do you think I would encounter any problems or even be able to find a swarm this time of year?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

3iris9 said:


> I live in SW Florida, do you think I would encounter any problems or even be able to find a swarm this time of year?


In Fl you might have to deal with Africanized honeybee genetics. That might be a little tough to deal with starting out new.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"As far as finding a swarm, do you think I would have better luck contacting the local "beekeepers association" or rather, making friends with a bee removal service?"

Either or both if you are talking about buying a recently captured swarm. If you want to capture a swarm you will need to do some preparation, planning, and getting your name out. If you want to catch one in a swarm trap, you will need to build or buy swarm traps, do some planning, and find locations to place the traps. Buying one or better, two, nucleus hives locally, if you can, is a good way to start climbing the learning curve.

"I live in SW Florida, do you think I would encounter any problems or even be able to find a swarm this time of year?"

Now is a good time in many areas of the South, but I'm not familiar with the timing of swarms in southwest Florida. Getting started is hard but rewarding; "always keep a-moving, and don't take no short cuts."


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Contact your local police department and fire department, in addition to pest control people. Have them put your name and phone number on their "swarm call list." Many pest control agencies don't want the bad press from killing honey bees and will contact a bee keeper when they are called about a swarm of bees. Many people panic when a swarm of bees lands in their back yard and call 911 for help getting rid of the "killer bees" in their yard.
Welcome to BeeSource and good luck which ever way you go with hives!


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## JeffM17 (Jul 19, 2013)

Couple of things from a new beek, but I would separate out what is good for you as a human from what is good for a bee. Bees have different nutrition needs and a different digestive system from you.

Right now in my area we are in a nectar dearth my been are sucking down a gallon of sugar syrup every couple of days. It takes a lot of nectar or sugar syrup for bees to draw out the comb when first starting out.

So Im looking at 10 to 15 lbs of sugar a week to feed them right now.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

If you build your top bar hive so that a Lang frame will fit in it, you can get a nuc and then just put the frames in the hive (search for long lang for info).

If you use a 19 inch top bar (or less with additional fiddling) and you can find an agreeable beekeeper. You can then build a nuc box for your equipment. The agreeable beekeeper might then be convinced to make a split into a box which also contains your top bars. If your top bars are less than 19 inch you will attach them to 19 inch carriers. When the bees build comb on your bars and brood and stores appear you could then remove the bars into your nuc box, adjust the number of bees as appropriate, cast lots as to weather you or the agreeable beekeeper gets the queen, and take the nuc home. You will probably still have to feed.

Keep in mind, what I know is just a distillation of what I have read.
Have fun,
Bill


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

3iris9 said:


> Ahh, I see.
> I guess I'll have to settle for pure cane or organic sugar no matter what.
> At least I'll be able to split hives in the future and start them 100% naturally later down the road.
> I read about the toxicity of unrefined sugars also, so I knew that was out of the question.
> ...


You'll be able to split hives down the road if you have hives that have survived. And if they're strong enough... And if they're healthy. 

What does your off-gridedness have to do with how you want to keep bees? Why can't you harvest wax from a Langstroth hive? 

It is going to be tough to grow bees, keep them alive, and not feed or treat them. I sincerely hope you are successful! Go in with your eyes wide open and know what not treating and not feeding might mean. Monitor mite levels.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Check the law, it may be illegal to hive swarms unless you re-queen, you are in AFB territory, and you do NOT want to get sued because your bees severely stung someone, so say nothing of the hazard of having aggressive, swarmy bees on your property.

Failing to feed your bees when they need it is exactly the same as failing to feed any other hungry livestock. If you want healthy hives and you live in an area with a dearth sometime in the year, feeding may be required.

Just like other livestock, if you want healthy bees producing honey for you, you must manage them, and these days that means controlling mites and keeping hive beetles under control. How you chose to do that is up to you, but if you don't indeed control them you will lose lots of hives.

Remember that the natural life cycle of a hive of honeybees is to store up honey, survive, and swarm to reproduce, and eventually die out and let another swarm take over the cavity after the wax moths clear out all the old comb. Honey for people requires managing the hives, you won't get much if you "let them do their thing" all alone without intervention.

There are no alternatives better than cane sugar for feeding -- it's clean, pure, and as good as nectar for storage. If you feed commercial honey you might be OK, but it costs several times and much, and in Florida, if labeled "pure honey" can contain AFB spores as it cannot be ultra filtered. Here, commercial big brand honey can be anything, and usually tastes like high fructose corn syrup.

Peter

Peter


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## dgrc (May 4, 2015)

AR Beekeeper said:


> ...Either way Langstroth equipment is easy to sell, the other styles, not so easy.


The local gurus here in MN say don't buy used equipment, you never know what diseases you might be bringing in. Anybody have any thoughts or experience with buying used equipment?

As a first-year beekeeper, I'm following the advice of those I learned from as closely as I can. While I'd like to try a number of different approaches, but not until I have a better feeling for what the girls are telling me.


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

the whole idea behind keeping bees is to provide an environment and husbandry that maximises their productivity. Sugar is organic. It is made of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. Buy organic sugar.

Cured honey is almost twice as thick as 1to1 syrup. You slow your bee package down with it as they have to collect water to thin it and do the work of thinning it. 

It takes about 8 pounds of honey to make a pound of wax. The survival of the colony through winter depends on the laying cycles which are dependent on food flowing into hive and comb for laying.

Keeping bees is about optimising comb production, and they queens ability to lay and build a large colony to, collect food make heat through winter.

Feeding a single bag of sugar in jan and again in feb will stimulate small scale laying cycles which will put the colony strong out of the gate in early spring. You need bees of varying ages to optomize the colony as they age out of being nursury and wax bees and die as foragers.

Using sugar a perfectly natural molecule to optomize a colony is no different than providing pure refined H2O. Its not some corporate scheme to put a subpar product on the shelves with artificial ingredients. Any sugar syrup stored will be in the brood nest, not in your supers.

The bees are going to rearrange it into a lipid called wax for the most part anyway. As soon as a good flow is on they will go for the nectar.


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## ljbee (Apr 27, 2015)

psfred said:


> ....... commercial big brand honey can be anything, and usually tastes like high fructose corn syrup.
> 
> Peter
> 
> Peter


That's the reason new beeks don't want to feed. I got some of that before. Seems like everybody's feeding their bees trying to maximize profits. Thats part of why I got bees in the first place.



rolftonbees said:


> Keeping bees is about optimising comb production, and they queens ability to lay and build a large colony to, collect food make heat through winter.
> 
> Feeding a single bag of sugar in jan and again in feb will stimulate small scale laying cycles which will put the colony strong out of the gate in early spring. You need bees of varying ages to optomize the colony as they age out of being nursury and wax bees and die as foragers.


I get it now.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

rolftonbees said:


> Sugar is organic. It is made of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. [HIGHLIGHT]Buy organic sugar.[/HIGHLIGHT]


I agree with _rolftonbees _post, but this point needs clarification.

In a chemistry sense, ordinary granulated sugar is organic - and fine to use as bee feed. But in a marketing sense, as commonly used, "organic" sugar may be less refined than ordinary granulated sugar. If the "organic" sugar is any color other than bright white, it has residual molasses solids in it, and is not the best choice for bees. 

Those solids are what gives "organic" sugar its color, and are non-digestible by bees. That is mostly a problem in winter when flying opportunities (cleansing flights) are few, but it may be that sugar stored in the hive now gets used next winter. Use plain old granulated (bright white) sugar for bee feed.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

dgrc said:


> The local gurus here in MN say don't buy used equipment,


Don't buy it sight unseen unless you can return it and get your money back. The only real concern would be AFB which would have signs in the comb if there was an outbreak. Try to get one of the gurus to inspect the comb.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

rolftonbees said:


> Cured honey is almost twice as thick as 1to1 syrup. You slow your bee package down with it as they have to collect water to thin it and do the work of thinning it.


This is where location may make a difference. Honey has more btu's then syrup so it takes up less space in the hive. In the northeast getting water is not an issue. Spanning periods of no forage days while the colony is expanding is a primary issue. Cramming a hive full of syrup is a disadvantage IMO because I think bees can starve going through a long hard winter. The hive needs food and space in the right proportions and I think the bees have figured out what is best for them to survive millions of years. Honey may slow their progress down during spring expansion but it insures their long survival in the end.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

rolftonbees said:


> Sugar is organic. It is made of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen.


Even as an organic gardener (and a former organic grower) I thought that was very funny and exceedingly clever.

Of course that was when I first heard it 40 years ago. Like any joke, the funniness and the cleverness factor has diminished to zero after hearing the stale argument hundreds of times since.

Still, while not having to feed is optimum, it is often necessary. If I can't feed honey I've stockpiled from the previous year, I'll feed off-the-shelf sugar. 

Wayne


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

Acebird,

The thinner 1to 1 syrup fed a new package in spring is to sustain them until a flow and for them to build out comb. Then they can store nectar and make brood and if you are lucky make a surplus of honey. 

Thicker 2 to 1 is fed late summer and fall for storage to build up winter stores. Giving this thicker syrup in spring slows them up as they collect water and take time to thin it. And like honey thicker syrup has greater btus per volume regardless of where you live.

Waynesgarden and others,

Re organic

Was not trying to be funny. Truth is that organic has a scientific meaning and definition that predates the more recent use of the word. I will stick with that definition as I am not educated well enough to grasp the nuances of "organic" otherwise. It seems to me, a moving target, and just when I think I get it, another ancient secret has been remarketed to inform the definition of "organic". But then this is a person who got asked to leave a health food store for suggesting to another customer and friend,who asked, that they use petrolatum to protect skin from concrete dust at work, and when the cashier overheard and called me out, I informed her that petrolatum was a mineral mined from the earth like calcium, and iron,....booted out...no soup for me. Or maybe it that moment when the cashier insisted organic aloe vera was the only reasonable solution to replace water, I suggested the human body is 60 percent water but the damaged skin cell walls are lipids and need replaced with lipids of similar viscocity not emulsified in water to hold that water in, in addition to providing a barrier to the cement dust. Either way no "organic" soup for me. Had to get my cute little boxes of buillion elsewhere.

Regarding mass production honey with corn syrup. This honey is mostly imported and the corn syrup is in it due to outright fraud. This honey is often ultrafiltered to both hide its country of origin, as well as to mask the lack of appropriate pollen due to cornsyrup being present.

If you stop feeding sugar syrup before putting supers on the hive, and leave what is in brood nest for the bees you will not have syrup in your honey. 

If all goes well you will not be feeding much and perhaps not at all the second year. One of my forst two hives came through winter with lots of honey and strong out of the gate. I pulled 3 shallow supers last week and they were never fed since last spring.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

rolftonbees said:


> If you stop feeding sugar syrup before putting supers on the hive, and leave what is in brood nest for the bees you will not have syrup in your honey.


Provided you use a QE and force the bees to keep the brood nest in the box/s that you have designated. Even then there is a slight chance that the bees will move stores around.

Clearly the bees know the difference between sugar water and nectar because they will choose nectar when it is available. They will store anything that is available because that is what they do but select what is best for them when it is available. In the land of good and plenty a hive that is not deprived of honey will never need sugar water.


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