# Nice sanctuary you have here......



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Nice sanctuary you have here. No mention of treatments allowed. And that is fine with me. But…if you look in the Bee Forum you’ll find a thread posted that the op was asking what treatments people are using. He didn’t ask if he should treat. He didn’t ask who treated and who didn’t. And the treatment free folks have piled on. Hardly reasonable.
I may argue with Sol over here from time to time…we have our differences of opinion….that’s allowed….isn’t it? But I’ve never advised anyone here that they should abandon tf. I believe that I’ve honored those rules.
Does it not seem like a fundamental common courtesy that tf folks would do the same for others?
I don’t plan to wring my hands as some have done, demanding moderator intervention. I’m simply asking if people with other beliefs should be allowed to engage in a dialog anywhere on Beesource? Or do you have your sanctuary and everyone else is fair game?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I second that....


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Be Nice people. 

Barry chimed in yesterday and said that mention of treatments is Not taboo on this forum as long as It is in context of working towards or becoming treatment free. We all need to be respectful, help each other and stop trying to make converts. If someone offends you with their preachiness then put them on your ignore list, or just ignore them, or go smoke some bees. Preaching back usually doesn't help. life is too short.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Dan, on this one I must disagree with you. The topic was raised in the general beekeeping forum, so discussing TX free beekeeping would also fall under the general beekeeping category. If the thread was in Diseases and Pest I would say you would have a point. 

That however does not excuse the zealotry that occurred in the thread. I find it irritating as well. 

Dan Hayden


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

beemandan said:


> Does it not seem like a fundamental common courtesy that tf folks would do the same for others?


Yes they should. Some zealots and naivete on this side of the table and it's embarrassing. 

Don


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

RiodeLobo said:


> The topic was raised in the general beekeeping forum, so discussing TX free beekeeping would also fall under the general beekeeping category.


I agree with you in part Dan. There's no reason that treatment free beekeeping can't be discussed in the General Beekeeping forum....or for that matter in Diseases and Pests. My complaint is that the topic of the thread is what 'TREATMENTS' people are using......and, in my opinion, treatment free is not a form of treatment. It might even be acceptable if they limited themselves to saying only....'I don't treat'. But they don't stop there. Some feel the compulsion to preach a sermon.

If a topic arises where tf is an appropriate part of the discussion....I'm fine. But this isn't one.

About a week ago a beekeeper asked about applying ApiLife Var....and a tf beekeeper chimed in and said no...no....no...you should read Michael Bush's website. 

Does that seem ok to you?


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

I agree with you. I don't understand the compulsion to sermonize the issue.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

In the written rules for this forum it states that no discussion of treating is allowed and that is the way the rules were enforced when this forum started. If that has been changed that is an improvement that I was not aware of.

I agree that if a person does not treat they should not answer a query about what treatment is being used. It was rude when the question about treatments was answered as it was, and by more than one treatment free beekeeper. The thread immediately got off topic and became a rant more than a discussion. This has occured often in the other forums, and is usually begun by a treatment free "zealot."

In the past, the treatment free advocates made their view known in the other forums and then would stifle dissent here in the treatment free forum. There should not be a forum where an opinion can not be discussed, but it should be done in a gentlemanly fashion.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

RiodeLobo said:


> so discussing TX free beekeeping would also fall under the general beekeeping category.


Texas free beekeeping, that is what I practice.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

David LaFerney said:


> Be Nice people.


I thought I'd written this nicely...and think I am being respectful.


David LaFerney said:


> stop trying to make converts


And I wasn't trying to make any converts.


David LaFerney said:


> If someone offends you with their preachiness then put them on your ignore list


I am actually doing a bit of this but....when someone asks a treatment question it is hard to ignore a boatload of preachers in your face....in my opinion.

The main reason I posted this thread in the tf forum was to see if the consensus of tf folks believe that the behavior I described reflects poor manners....or if the evangelists are the norm.

Not much to be done either way...I often find myself curious about human nature and how it differs in various circles.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Trying to interact conscientously and deliberately on this forum is nigh difficult.
Developing races of bees that are able to resist imported parasite syndromes at an economic threshold is a difficult and time-consuming task. It is not made easier by some of the inaccurate zealotry bandied about. 

Efforts to select and improve queenstock, reduce treatments, efforts to avoid inducing resistance in parasites, efforts to avoid practices that push hyper-virulence are all worth discussing, implementing and evaluating broadly.

There is an intolerant strain on this forum that believes with absolute, but false and woeful naive certainty, that "Bond Test" mortality is the only path towards the implementing methods of treatment reduction. It is sad and distressing to see such antipathy misdirected at the very people whom are trying to help these folks achieve their goal.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I've given my own views on this forum regarding 'Bond' bees.
I've even participated in many both constructive and contentious threads on the topic.
It's a forum fellas.
Of course it can get out of hand.

However, is this thread about, talking about, talking about treatment free beekeeping?

And, by the way, what makes you think that you hold the moral high ground?

I'm certainly not conceding that as a given.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

WLC that's a fundamental question on IBS.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Amen JWChesnut


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

The term 'Bond' bees comes from an actual experiment in Gotland, Sweden. It's in the scientific literature. Those "Live and Let Die" bees are still going strong and being studied.

Some treatment free beekeepers, here in the U.S., have replicated that methodology to get resistant bees.

And yes, the methodology does work.

I've discussed it, and given my own views on it many times.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The current moderator clarified his position on the matter a few days ago. Far as he is concerned, he will permit treatment to be discussed on this forum, provided it's in the context of moving towards non treatment. So an example might be, somebody has improved their strain, and has reduced treatment needs from 5 years ago 100% of colonies, 3 years ago 50% of colonies, 1 year ago 20% of colonies. Projected 3 year plan, 0% of colonies. The moderator would likely permit that, of course every permutation of a discussion is hard to define so he would use his personal discretion, as moderator and final authority. So with common sense, other methods than just bond can be discussed. 

If someone said their hive is full of mites what should I do? Somebody could not say treat it. Not here, anyway.

Sounds as fair as you can get to me, particularly in light of my own experience where bond didn't work. 

As to the other threads mentioned where people wanted advice on treatment options but were told not to treat, some of those posts were so far off the wall I found it pretty funny, had a good chuckle. These types of posts are normally from somebody very inexperienced and it can be kindest not to be too hard on the person. There are a couple of "old hands" who also like to chip in to argue and derail, they of course, are fair game.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

First of all, I have complained about how the special rules were pushed through, and I've also complained how a small group was trying to coopt the chemical free and IPM approaches to beekeeping.

As for the other thread, if you're using an unregistered chemical like OA to treat your hives for mites, don't throw stones. 

You're sort of like a 'poster child' for chemical free beekeeping.


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## farmerdean (Feb 29, 2012)

I agree with David. Life is too short. Take a chair and a few beers out to the hives and sit and watch.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

farmerdean said:


> Take a chair and a few beers out to the hives and sit and watch.


Excellent suggestion. I worked on some candle molds and cleaned up the honey house today....and now, I think a Corona on the back deck is in order.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Personally, I have no trouble reading any and everything written in posts, no matter the forum, thread, or topic. I can easily choose to accept, reject, or ignore what is written, no matter who has written it. I appreciate that so many people are willing to share their thoughts with the rest of us. Sometimes I share my own perspective, though I don't usually feel compelled to do so.

As long as my neighbors don't actually interfere with what I want to do and how I do it, I really don't care what they think about what I'm doing. Forums, like this one are ideal for allowing me to find out what my neighbors are thinking. And even if I don't agree with them, by hearing their ideas, I can learn even more, and develop my own ideas even more completely.

Maybe if I read the litany of any particular poster, or all posters, enough times, I may someday reach an epiphany and/or experience a paradigm shift in my personal point of view. I welcome the illumination.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I would agree that if someone is asking about what sort of treatments work best, it is not courteous to try to convince that person that the whole concept of treatment is in error. Besides, it's very unlikely to change that person's mind. If they're asking about treatments, then they've probably already decided on their personal approach to beekeeping.

I will say that sometimes threads drift, and if you come in to one in mid-rant, you may read something that seems to call for a response that has nothing to do with the original poster's question or intent. That seems to happen constantly in the treatment free "sanctuary" but probably most of us hit the "what's new" icon at the top, and don't pay too much attention to what forum the question appears in.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I've been basically tf from the get go, although I will use OA if I have a major infestation of mites in a hive. However I've worked for a commercial guy and I got to see how he treats and when he treats and for what. I have 3 year old hives that are doing great, never being treated in that time frame. The commercial guy told me I wouldn't have bees in 2 years doing what I was doing, told me I was a frickin bee killing hippy lol My losses are the same as his losses % wise and he even called me last year to come show him how to use OA vapor. My point being, you can learn from both sides of the fence and even if you won't use what you learned, at least you know. No need to chastize someone for doing something different even if theyre a complete half wit.


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## Moonfire (Apr 2, 2013)

beemandan said:


> About a week ago a beekeeper asked about applying ApiLife Var....and a tf beekeeper chimed in and said no...no....no...you should read Michael Bush's website.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Is it really preaching to suggest that someone check out other beeks information (TF or not) before applying a chemical to the bees? They weren't necessarily saying no no no go treatment free, were they? Michael bush has in fact used treatments and does have some good insite via his experiments going into treatment free from treatments.. so leading someone to a site that has information based on experience can really only be helpful. I personally think that making an us verses them thing out of it is ridiculous and childish! beekeepers are beekeepers and not a single one of us is doing everything exactly the same. so do what you will and let it harm none! what good does it do to complain about it?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

beemandan said:


> in the Bee Forum you’ll find a thread posted that the op was asking what treatments people are using.


To be fair, the OP title was "TREAMENTS". :lpf: 

Last time I checked, anybody could comment on anything. There's just certain things you can't say in certain places. Like you can't talk about politics and religion outside Tailgater. You can't drop the f-bomb. You can't disparage commercials in the commercial forum. And you can't call people names.

So what on earth are you whining about?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> So what on earth are you whining about?


As I said earlier...I'm not wringing my hands over the lack of moderation as some do...just suggesting common courtesy.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

You seem to be well interested in posting threads that push an anti-TF mindset, and actively defending your presuppositions.

It's hard to tell what your hands are doing from here. They may not be wringing, but watch out for carpal tunnel syndrome.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> You seem to be well interested in posting threads that push an anti-TF mindset, and actively defending your presuppositions.


This particular thread, as I've attempted to remind you was about common courtesy. 
As usual, you continue to be blinded by your agenda...so I'll repeat this as well...for whatever good it is likely to do....it isn't always about you Sol.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

beemandan said:


> This particular thread, as I've attempted to remind you was about common courtesy.


What courtesy are you denied? You even get to whine constantly about not getting your right to say whatever you want!



beemandan said:


> As usual, you continue to be blinded by your agenda...so I'll repeat this as well...for whatever good it is likely to do....it isn't always about you Sol.


What are you talking about? It's you in the treatment-free forum complaining that you don't get to talk about treatments in the treatment-free forum. Who is this about?


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> You seem to be well interested in posting threads that push an anti-TF mindset, and actively defending your presuppositions.


That statement beautifully captures the feeling that I get all too often when talking about tf. 

A small bunch of posters seem to want to actively derail any conversation that leads to either discussion of practical methods or underlying theory. Systematically. And now there's a complaint about one or two posts in the commercial section, using those to try to establish new rules here, under cover of the notion of 'common courtesy', that will better facilitate that process - and distract from tf as a bonus. 

All under the laughable title ' nice sanctury' - which attempts to establish the absurd notion that here in the tf section those wishing to discuss tf are left alone to get on with it - something the originator knows very well is a million miles from reality.

Mike (UK)


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> What courtesy are you denied? You even get to whine constantly about not getting your right to say whatever you want!


 
Sol….I’m thinkin’ that your memory is failing. This isn’t the first time I’ve had to remind you to reread the original post.



Solomon Parker said:


> What are you talking about? It's you in the treatment-free forum complaining that you don't get to talk about treatments in the treatment-free forum. Who is this about?


It’s ok….I can go ahead and spoonfeed it to you.



beemandan said:


> . No mention of treatments allowed. And that is fine with me. I’m simply asking if people with other beliefs should be allowed to engage in a dialog anywhere on Beesource? Or do you have your sanctuary and everyone else is fair game?


 


mike bispham said:


> A small bunch of posters seem to want to actively derail any conversation


Hahahahahahaha….whew…..hahahahaha….you got to stop….it’s too early in the morning for this lunacy…..hahaha…HAW…HAW…HAW. You accusing anyone about derailing a thread…….HAW….ooooohhhhh……HAW


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

beemandan said:


> Hahahahahahaha….whew…..hahahahaha….you got to stop….it’s too early in the morning for this lunacy…..hahaha…HAW…HAW…HAW. You accusing anyone about derailing a thread…….HAW….ooooohhhhh……HAW


When you've been caught red-handed - distract distract distract. That looks very much like forced laughter to me. Is that the best you can do? 

Do remember - we're not talking about me derailing threads at this point. We're talking about you pushing your anti-tf mindset here in the tf section. And trying to water down the rules under cover of talk about 'common courtesy' (haha) to enable you to do so more effectively. 

What we're talking about is the fundamental discourtesy of your constant interruptions, your 'denial of service' attacks on the space that was set aside for discussion of non-treatment beekeeping.

Its that fundamental discourtesy that is the source of 90% of all the tension that occurs here.

And you are taking the wholly artificial position of pretending that doesn't occur, in order to try to facilitate more of it. You are not merely pretending it doesn't happen, you are trying to establish that as a 'fact' by characterising this place in terms of a 'sanctuary'.

You are actively distorting the realities to suit your agenda. And this is 'courteous' behaviour?

Mike (UK)


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