# Update on narrow frames from Kelley



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

http://app.newpanda.com/public/sharedimages/4396/1234979276/Documents/march-2012 -Large.pdf

Email if you're interested in Kelley producing narrow frames.

Also an article by Michael Bush.


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## buhbee (Oct 17, 2010)

Thanks for the heads up. When ordering frames from Kelley's back in Oct., I asked about narrow frames and was told they could make them but there would be an additional charge and a delay in delivery. I wouldn't have minded paying a little extra at the time because I was planning to take delivery (free of charge) at the Tennessee Beekeepers Assoc. convention in late Oct. Unfortunately, they couldn't fill the special order in time for the convention so I ended up taking their standard foundationless frames. Glad to read they are considering adding the 1.25 frames to the catalog, and have sent them an email stating so. Thanks again, Solomon.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Does anyone have any recent info concerning Kelley selling narrow frames?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

BeeCurious said:


> Does anyone have any recent info concerning Kelley selling narrow frames?


I found this:

https://kelleybees.com/blog/2012/04/narrower-frames-a-decision/


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

I will be happy to see the narrow frames available as well. I only run them in the brood boxes though.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I received the following from W.T. Kelley :

" This is going to end up to be a fall project at Kelley’s but we are going to do it. Business growth has been good this year and our production schedule is packed right now.. We will be sure to put it both in the newsletter as well as on the web."


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Does anyone know if Kelley's are going to offer numerous styles of narrow frames?

Foundationless
Grooved top and bottom bars
Etc. etc....


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## Kelleybees (May 9, 2012)

To start off with we will only have the divided BB wedge TB. I reviewed these with Michael Bush at HAS and we were making a bit to thin. We have the specs now and will start production next month. There will be limitied quantities on startup - but should have some equipment built by spring.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Excellent - I made over 2,000 narrow foundationless frames this year and I'm sick of making them from scratch. Let me know when they are available please.

Don Semple
[email protected]


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Why would you want a grooved or divided bottom bar on a foundationless frame? The groove is to fit foundation into, which you won't be using. A solid bottom bar is stronger and cheaper to build. One less cut.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

When they come out, I will put in a small order, a few dozen, then we'll go from there.

Great to hear about a company responsive to its customers' requests. I hope you make money on the deal.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

odfrank said:


> Why would you want a grooved or divided bottom bar on a foundationless frame? The groove is to fit foundation into, which you won't be using. A solid bottom bar is stronger and cheaper to build. One less cut.


I have some hives with narrow frames. Some are grooved top and bottom, others are PF-120's.

I called Kelley's a few days ago and was told that grooved top and bottom bars were going to be made. I guess later on.

Narrow frame use doesn't necessarily mean "foundationless".


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## Kelleybees (May 9, 2012)

Odfrank -

You did not read the post correctly it is wedge top bars & divided bottom bars -- not sure where you got foundationless from -- however if you pop the wedge and turn - paint with wax they will work as foundationless. These will be the 1st frames available.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Kelleybees said:


> Odfrank You did not read the post correctly


Yes, excuse me... I am old and confused. I was envisioning a narrow frame with your foundationless wedge topbar...the ultimate frame for the new age, treatment free, natural cell size, Michael Bush disciple beekeeper. In fact, it is my recommendation that the narrow frame can be bought with a foundationless topbar. It would be the langstroth frame for the natural comb, topbar crowd. I will order 100.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

BeeCurious said:


> I have some hives with narrow frames. Some are grooved top and bottom, others are PF-120's.
> 
> I called Kelley's a few days ago and was told that grooved top and bottom bars were going to be made. I guess later on.
> 
> Narrow frame use doesn't necessarily mean "foundationless".


I will be looking forward to the grooved top and bottom bars as well :applause:


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## wanderyr (Feb 11, 2012)

odfrank said:


> Yes, excuse me... I am old and confused. I was envisioning a narrow frame with your foundationless wedge topbar...the ultimate frame for the new age, treatment free, natural cell size, Michael Bush disciple beekeeper. In fact, it is my recommendation that the narrow frame can be bought with a foundationless topbar. It would be the langstroth frame for the natural comb, topbar crowd. I will order 100.


I read it the way you did, odfrank. Guess we should pay more attention 

I agree though, I would love to see the narrow frame with the foundationless top bar.

Of my three hives, one is what might be called a Michael Bush Disciple's bee hive, and the other two are standard 10-frame, Ritecell Langstroth's. I have a few years before I can expand past three hives, so I'm trying to decide which way to go at that time


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## Kelleybees (May 9, 2012)

The narrow end bars are completed, they will go with any design top bar, bottom bar you choose. They are going to be sold only in packs of 100 and will be listed in frame parts in the 2013 catalog. If you would like to order before then please email sales at Kelley. Request the 82Thin. These are only available in deep 9 1/8 end bars. If there is a huge demand we will consider doing medium.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I may be wrong, but I believe the majority of the people interested in narrow frames would be wanting mediums...

I suspect that buying topbars and bottom bars separately will make this much more expensive.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Kelleybees said:


> The narrow end bars are completed, they will go with any design top bar, bottom bar you choose. They are going to be sold only in packs of 100 and will be listed in frame parts in the 2013 catalog. If you would like to order before then please email sales at Kelley. Request the 82Thin. These are only available in deep 9 1/8 end bars. If there is a huge demand we will consider doing medium.


Excellent news! :applause: Hopefully they will be available in smaller quantities for hobbyists like me. Would it make sense for them to be available in multiples of twenty two? Or maybe that would take special packaging equipment. I hope you have success with this new product line. Thank you for taking the initiative to provide a resource for factory made narrow frames. :applause:


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

BeeCurious said:


> I suspect that buying topbars and bottom bars separately will make this much more expensive.


I've corrected this post................

The cost per 100 endbars is currently $21.00 (enough for 50 frames)

So for 100 frames, the increase in cost will be about $24.00 

If you are interested in buying mediums, call W.T. Kelley and ask to speak with Jennifer.


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## wanderyr (Feb 11, 2012)

Kelleybees said:


> These are only available in deep 9 1/8 end bars. If there is a huge demand we will consider doing medium.


Wonderful! I, for one, am looking for medium foundationless.

Thanks guys,
wanderyr


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

NOTE:

I corrected a previous post. The increase in cost will be about $24 per 100 frames.

The topbars are not altered any. Having waited so long, it's disappointing. Perhaps Kelley's will offer to plane down topbars for an additional service fee...

With all of the trimming, gluing, stapling, and foundation installation, cutting down Mann Lake's PF-120 frames doesn't sound so bad.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

BeeCurious said:


> The increase in cost will be about $24 per 100 frames.


Since Kelley isn't reducing the width of their topbars I suspect that many beekeepers will simply trim their frame ends as opposed to spending the additional $24


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

I made a large purchase of supplies to build deep narrow brood frames from W. T. Kelley. First of all the minimum order for grooved bottom bars is 100 pieces so I ordered enough frame top and end bars to match quantities. I am a hobbyist with two to four hives so materials for 100 frames is a lot. Total order $125 shipping is additional. Overall, I was not impressed with the frame ends. They were indeed 1-1/4” however they were not evenly trimmed for uniform spacing between frames and several of them even split when inserting the top bars. I do like the the bottom bar joints, they should be strong. Either way I believe the bees will use the frames. I swap out the brood frames with the darkest comb annually so sooner or later this too will pass.

























I am just wondering if others have tried them out and how their experience has been.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Wow, that is terrible. It doesn't look like they changed the topbar width either. I can do better than that with a table saw. I voiced my approval initially, but I think I will pass at this time. That's no good at all.


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## Kelleybees (May 9, 2012)

Solomon Parker said:


> Wow, that is terrible. It doesn't look like they changed the topbar width either. I can do better than that with a table saw. I voiced my approval initially, but I think I will pass at this time. That's no good at all.


We looked to M Bush for advice on what we needed to do to and the dimensions -- this is why we waited to automate these. We would like to get feedback & dimensions so we can improve upon these. What exactly are the dimensions on top bar and end bar are you looking for.

Kelleys always appreciates any feedback we can get to put the product in your hands you can use.

Thanks!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

If the end bars are narrowed, the top bars must be correspondingly narrowed so that the critical dimensions at the top of the end bars remain the same (preventing splitting) and the top bars must be separated by the same dimension as they were before.

I bought a batch of foundationless medium frames and trimmed the endbars and found this problem. Kelley's topbars are wide meaning that when you trim the end bars, the top bars get closer together and if they get too close, bees can't squeeze between. For 1 1/4" end bars, the top bar should be no wider than 1" and 7/8" would be better. The two upright parts at the tops of the end bars ought to be at least 1/4" or thicker to prevent splitting.

Most of all, they must be consistent. There is less room for error in narrow frames. Poor ccar2000 is going to have loads of trouble with these inconsistent frames being glued together with propolis and not being the correct center to center dimension leading to comb which is not centered in the frames.


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## Kelleybees (May 9, 2012)

We would appreciate as much feedback as we can get -- Solomon I have forwarded your info onto production and we will have a discussion on a possible change to the top bar allowing for shrinking dimensions on both the end & top bar. Please keep suggestions coming. Thanks!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Ideal would be a top bar of 1" or slightly less. But I shave down regular frames all the time without shaving the top bars. You should (if it's consistent) have 3/16" between the top bars which the bees can get through and since it's how they move from box to box they don't propolize them. I try to leave at least one a little wider in the center (1/4") so the queen can more easily get through. They aren't right. But they aren't terrible. They are better than wider frames.

If you have less than 3/16" they will just propolize them closed.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I am happy to help. Sorry if I come off critical, I am not trying to be.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Might I suggest that WT Kelley create a complete un-assembled package with the appropriate sized top, side and bottom bars for narrow frame beekeeping. Also since most commercial beekeepers are not narrow frame users maybe these complete packages could be made available containing multiples of 11 ie 11, 22, 33, etc... I think there are a lot of hobbyists out there that just have two to four hives in their yard or somewhere close by.

Thank you for your attention and suggestions regarding this matter.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Michael Bush said:


> Ideal would be a top bar of 1" or slightly less.


The Kelley top bars are approximately 1 1/32"

I will be thinning mine down on a router and I learned that "Whiteside" bits are nice and http://www.hartvilletool.com/ ships for free. I plan to stop about 1/2" from the end bar location...


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Michael Bush said:


> Ideal would be a top bar of 1" or slightly less.


The Kelley top bars are approximately 1 1/32"

I will be thinning mine down on a router and I learned that "Whiteside" bits are nice and http://www.hartvilletool.com/ ships for free. I plan to stop about 1/2" from the end bar location... 


I find the irregular endbar widths shown in this photo to be unacceptable :


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I agree with Michael.
I've been cutting down Dadant End bars to 1 1/4" with. It is important that the top bar notch be centered, or the joint is weakened and may split a noted above.

A 1" top bar will allow proper bee space @ 1/4", which is on the narrow end of proper size, imo.

If the frames are made in such a way as not to require any modification or special care, I'll be happy to use them in my brood boxes, and will likely order other things as well when making frame orders.

At present, when I buy cut stock I get it at Dadant as it is local and there is no shipping cost.
But if Kelley were to make foundtionless narrow frames that I can just assemble and use, w/o having to monkey around making mods, with a properly centered top bar, I'd be pleased to pay shipping.


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## wanderyr (Feb 11, 2012)

Yes, 1" wide (or slightly less). I've modified about 50 Mann Lake frames. Their top bars are exactly 1", leaving enough space once you trim down the edge pieces.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I've been following this thread with high interest, because it takes too much of my time making my own frames. If I can obtain suitable wooden frames commercially, for a reasonable cost, it would save me having to make my own - giving me more time actually working with bees.

I am presently making my own frames. I prefer the Top Bars to be 7/8" wide (this provides a nice bee space between frames that have 1-1/4" wide End Bars), and I use a router table and bit to create a comb guide profile on the Top Bars between the End Bars, though a grooved Top Bar would be acceptable, and one with a wedge, somewhat less so. My End Bars are 1-1/4" wide, 3/8" thick and the sides are parallel, top to bottom (I find that used correctly fewer bees are guillotined than with the graduated-width End Bars). My Bottom Bars are 1/2" high and 3/4" wide, and sized to fit inside the bottoms of the End Bars, so I can fasten them with horizontal fasteners through the outside bottom edges of the End Bars (I find that this holds the Bottom Bars best from "pull-out"). Some of my Bottom Bars have a reverse of the comb guide that's on the Top Bars, but I haven't observed that this inspires the bees to more regularly fasten their combs there. I believe the 1/2" height helps inspire comb attachment best, especially if there is bee space beneath the Bottom Bars.

Additionally, I find that four wire holes in End Bars for comb support on deep frames is overkill. Two wire holes in each End Bar, either deep or medium are more than sufficient. On deep frames the top and bottom horizontal wire positions are too close to the Top Bar and Bottom Bar, respectively to provide much reinforcement support. At most deep frames could use three horizontal support wires, but the center one should be positioned where it would be in the center of the finished comb, and the other two equidistant from, but closer to the center wire than to either the Top Bar or Bottom Bar.

I would be happy to provide a prototype if you'd like.

Plan JPEG's are available, here.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

When I made a batch the 7/8" top bar was perfect and a smaller width dado at the top of the end bar helps. The guy with the pics should get a reimbursement, that's just unacceptable stock to work with. If the top bars were thinner his situation wouldn't be AS bad...


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Here is my vision of the most acceptable narrow frame based on everything I'm reading here. A top bar with a width of 15/16", end bars with a width of 1 1/4" at the top, the lower part of the end bars has about 3/16" stock removed on each side to give you about a 1/2" or 9/16" width wood at the point where you attach the bottom bar in the way Joseph Clemens does it by putting the bottom bar on the inside of the end bars and nailing/gluing. I might add that having 1 1/4" end bars and a 15/16" top bar will require about a 3/16" dado cut on each side of the top bar ends for the end bars to slide into, that will leave you with about 1/2" to 9/16" of stock left between the two dado cuts on the top bar which should be plenty strong enough. I hope I described it clearly enough. Is this basically what everyone is looking for? John


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'm okay with the traditional attachment for the bottom bar. I don't believe that needs to be modified at all. Kelley's method is adequate.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Here are some pics of some I just made:

Link

They're a little too large to display here.


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## wanderyr (Feb 11, 2012)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Here are some pics of some I just made:
> 
> Link
> 
> They're a little too large to display here.


Google+ says I don't have permission to access the pictures. I'm not sure how you would make it public...

Thanks !
-wanderyr


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Please try it now. I adjusted the share settings.


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## Kelleybees (May 9, 2012)

Wow -- we are reviewing all the feedback now. Thanks so much! The narrow frames are made to fit any style top bar, but the idea of packaging in 11 packs and then shaving down the top bars the requested width might be doable -- remember we carry more style frames than anyone out there. Which ones are next to be in demand besides the foundationless TB. Let us mull this all over and we would love a proto-type mailed to Kelley Attn: Jane or Eric. We will have some news soon.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I'll try to get a prototype on its way by Monday.


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## Kelleybees (May 9, 2012)

Joseph Clemens said:


> I'll try to get a prototype on its way by Monday.


Thanks for all the info Joe -- Really appreciate your feedback and valuable info provided.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I sent the prototype frame yesterday. I hope it arrives safely and helps the process.


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## Routt Bee (Mar 21, 2014)

Joseph Clemens said:


> I sent the prototype frame yesterday. I hope it arrives safely and helps the process.


Hello!

Just signed up for this site although I have been gathering info as a lurker for a while. I am trying to set up my first couple of hives and would like a status update on what seems to be long-term project.

Any news? Or should I make my own frames as well as well as boxes?

Thanks!


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Kelley's gave up on the idea of manufacturing / selling narrow frames.


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## Routt Bee (Mar 21, 2014)

BeeCurious said:


> Kelley's gave up on the idea of manufacturing / selling narrow frames.


Thanks!

Discouraging though, seems like a lot of wasted effort by some folks.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I have a lot of frames I've narrowed to 1 1/4".
It's a lot of extra work.

It may have been beneficial in practice here in upstate NY, but I haven't kept any all-std-width-frame colonies for comparison....it may be a purely theoretical advantage and a bog waste of time, I don't know.

I am moving to western Washington, and MUCH milder winters, and won't be going to the trouble in the future unless I find some reason to other than the winter cluster being able to cover more frames in winter with the same number of bees.

I've never experienced mite problems despite not using any miticides.
I don't know if small cell comb is the reason for that or not, but as it costs lityle or no more money( and no more time) than large cell, I'll continue using it.

It's fun to experiment with these things for oneself.


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## Routt Bee (Mar 21, 2014)

Thanks Beregondo!

I am at 8000' in the Rockies. I started building my boxes this week, all 2x. Any other hints would be appreciated.

I am prepared for complete failure.

I only get decent internet about once a week, sorry about the delay.


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