# Coates Nuc question



## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

I am curious to see the answers to this also. 

I have made about 10 so far using 3/4 inch CDX plywood -- which is rated for exterior use so I am expecting them to last quite a while. I have used some pine for the end pieces on the migratory lid. And, I paint them. I know some folks frown on the glue / off gassing from the plywood but I don't think it is a problem. 

Because I used 3/4 plywood, I had to adjust the dimension a little so they would fit my other nucs boxes.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

I think it will depend on what type of plywood, quality of paint coating and environment

I am on 4 years with mine, still looking good.


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## richh (Sep 14, 2013)

burns375 said:


> I think it will depend on what type of plywood, quality of paint coating and environment
> 
> I am on 4 years with mine, still looking good.


1/2 plywood? Any trouble stacking them?


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

Mine are only a year old. No age problems but something sure likes to chew on the corners. Guess the glue is tasty. Hasn't weakened them, I don't think. I used the half in plywood.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I made my nucs from 3/4" boards, but did review the D Coates plans. I chose to use boards simply because I have more recycled boards available than plywood, so I reserved the plywood for tops and bottoms.




> ... 3/4 inch CDX plywood -- which is rated for exterior ...


CDX plywood is rated 'Exposure 1', not 'Exterior' by plywood manufacturers. There is a difference - details here:
http://www.schmeling.com/reference/pdf_files/plywood_exposure_rating.pdf


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## TPalmer (Jun 11, 2012)

Mine are a little over two years old in Florida weather. One coat of primer paint and one coat of latex. They are holding up but if I don't paint them again, one more year is all I expect before they come apart. But I didn't build them for long term.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

AC fir plywood if you can get it will last for years and years even without paint.I used to make all my tops and bottom boards with it and I have some that are 30 years old.One still without paint.The lumberyards here quit carrying it.My brother who owned a lumberyard said it was the price that kept him from carrying it as people always want something cheap.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

it depends on the plywood. painted exterior plywood will last for years and years. painted plywood made with interior plywood is done after about 2 years. with new plywood this is pretty simple, be carefull with scraps and salvage wood. I have a dozen to fix, the ends are no good with the rest just like new. evidently the ends got made from cabinet wood, I was assured that the glue was exterior, the guy who told me was wrong.


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

I was also told wrong about the CDX -- but, I should have known better in retrospect -- they guy at Home Depot who told me about it.

Would the AC fir plywood be considered Marine grade plywood?


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

no orthoman, but if you sealed the edges, CDX should have been ok. the X stands for exterior. that means glue for outside use. the first 2 letters are for the grade of the ply sheets front and back. so cdx is grade c front and grade d back with exterior glue, that is low grade for outside use, big knot holes on the back. ac fir is "a" front and "c" back side with exterior glue, one side close to perfect, with a backside you do not want to look at for finish work but ok.. for painted nucs cdx is ok for nucs, if you do not live in a rain forest. paint it and seal the edges on all plywood.


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Well, I kind of live in rain forest in normal years. This year hasn't been too bad. 

The Nuc boxes and tops are all painted - first with primmer and second with a least one coat of exterior latex


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

When I have scrounged plywood pieces of uncertain lineage, I use it for tops with a protective covering (metal or vinyl, whatever I have _scrounged_).

If you are buying plywood, use the grade stamp as your guide. Plywood and all other _rated _sheet goods should have a grade stamp on each sheet, similar to those below. Note the word "Exterior" on the one on the right. The others only say "Exposure 1".







Click image for larger version. 


If you want _Exterior _rated plywood, look for the grade stamp to be sure. "C-C" may be the most economical exterior rated grade, but it may also be that not all "C-C" is exterior rated. Same for AC and other grades as well. 

One flavor that you will _not _find is CDX _Exterior _rated plywood. Exterior rated plywood _cannot _have voids in the individual plies, and the "D" surface disqualifies that sheet. In addition, _Exterior _rated sheets cannot have voids in the interior plies, but CDX may. 
https://books.google.com/books?id=5...nepage&q=exterior plywood voids grade&f=false
pages 230-231

.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

I fully agree radar. I am not too sure about some of the exterior glue out there today, I suspect some of it is coming from china.


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## MikeBanyai (Jan 16, 2015)

I have been working up extruded polystyrene insulation board nuc boxes, wondered if anyone has also done this. I have found that using the 1 inch 4x8 sheets and 3/8 ply, both from Home Depot I can make a stack of 6 deeps with 2 tops and 2 bottom and wood edges for about $20. They paint well and look to be tough enough. I make no claims to that effect currently as I need to field test them. I was inspired by an article in American Bee Journal that stated the insulating properties of the foam were significantly beneficial to the early growth of packages in the spring. I can put one together now in about a minute, if the parts are cut, using a Ryobi portable finish nail gun and electric screwdriver. You can glue with Liquid nails, TightBond3, gorilla glue or epoxy. I have made competition grade radio controlled sailplanes from reinforced foam in the past and know that done right the strengths of the material can be leveraged to good effect. I am able to make precise cuts to a sixteenth using my radial arm saw but a table saw would also work.


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## The Evil Chip (May 19, 2012)

MikeBanyai said:


> I have been working up extruded polystyrene insulation board nuc boxes, wondered if anyone has also done this. I have found that using the 1 inch 4x8 sheets and 3/8 ply, both from Home Depot I can make a stack of 6 deeps with 2 tops and 2 bottom and wood edges for about $20. They paint well and look to be tough enough. I make no claims to that effect currently as I need to field test them. I was inspired by an article in American Bee Journal that stated the insulating properties of the foam were significantly beneficial to the early growth of packages in the spring. I can put one together now in about a minute, if the parts are cut, using a Ryobi portable finish nail gun and electric screwdriver. You can glue with Liquid nails, TightBond3, gorilla glue or epoxy. I have made competition grade radio controlled sailplanes from reinforced foam in the past and know that done right the strengths of the material can be leveraged to good effect. I am able to make precise cuts to a sixteenth using my radial arm saw but a table saw would also work.


Mike: I very much want to try those out. But my reason is a little different. It occurs to me that you might be able to cut the pieces using a utility knife and a straightedge, eliminating most of the need for wood working tools. Where are you putting the wood edges on them? Would you mind posting a photo?


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## MikeBanyai (Jan 16, 2015)

You might be able to use a knife, especially if you used gorilla glue as the foaming action makes the surface precision less important. I have been placing a wood edge top and bottom so there is something solid to use a tool to pry the boxes apart. My tests show that that the brown 3/16 hardboard would not come apart soaked in water but the 3/8 plywood is more snazzy. I am not quite sure how to attach pictures but if you shoot me a private message with your email I can get you a bunch. The other nice thing about foam is that you can put all kinds of holes for ventilation and then cover with screen to prevent robbing or tape if you want to close some or all of them


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## The Evil Chip (May 19, 2012)

Mike: I'll PM you in a moment. One thing that I have heard of as a problem with these is the bees will chew on the material. Do you plan to paint or otherwise treat the insides?


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## MikeBanyai (Jan 16, 2015)

Thanks for the heads up about them chewing. I had not run across that in the stuff I read on the store bought ones, but it is something I will monitor. I did find it real easy to paint the out side when it is still in a 4x8 sheet by just just using a roller with it on the ground. Could just as easy do the flip side also. I plan to do my wooden ware this way next as well..then touch up once it is all together..


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## johnbeejohn (Jun 30, 2013)

anyone ever hereof a plywood that has wax in and on it used for cheese making someone told me there is such a thing guessing it would repel water pretty good


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

MikeBanyai said:


> Thanks for the heads up about them chewing. I had not run across that in the stuff I read on the store bought ones, but it is something I will monitor. I did find it real easy to paint the out side when it is still in a 4x8 sheet by just just using a roller with it on the ground. Could just as easy do the flip side also. I plan to do my wooden ware this way next as well..then touch up once it is all together..


I made several, painted them inside and out, bees chewed them pretty bad, unusable after a year. I scrapped all mine.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

camero7 said:


> I made several, painted them inside and out, bees chewed them pretty bad, unusable after a year. I scrapped all mine.


Will this chewing hurt the bees in any way? Thanks, Deb


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

What if you used contact cement and glued aluminum foil on the sheet before cutting. I would think they would not be able to chew through foil.

As far as my ply nucs. I used them last summer for making splits. As soon as they were strong enough, they went into reg. boxes and the plywood went in the garage. They were outside maybe 2 months, in good shape. I will probably use them this way. And when I sell nucs, they will be what the customer gets.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I have some that are going on 5 years old and still don't have any rotten areas. They could use a new coat of paint but, they are still solid.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Cloverdale said:


> Will this chewing hurt the bees in any way? Thanks, Deb



didn't seem to bother my bees... they certainly had a lot of ventilation If you make some be careful when it's hot moving them. They tend to come apart as the glue seems to give a lot. I solved that with 4" sheet metal screws. But too much trouble to make them worthwhile. I use the Beterbee Poly nucs and they work quite well.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Thanks Camero, :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## MikeBanyai (Jan 16, 2015)

Thanks Cam for the info. Must say this is very helpful as it is not something I had run across and you just saved me a season of finding out. Could you say which glue you used. It is hard to imagine that epoxy or gorilla glue would change much in the heat. I have a lot of epoxy left over, the West system stuff for boats and airplanes, I may try painting the inside on some. Given your info I think I will stick to just springtime use for the packages and transfer the bees to conventional woodware after it gets warm and they are in need of expansion out of the 5 frames setup, thanks again.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I didn't use epoxy. I used a poly glue which worked great until it got hot. I used some as the top box and they got pretty heavy with honey and separated without being handled. Like I said, the 4" sheet metal screws helped a lot but the chewing is what made me give them up. couldn't stop it with paint.


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## MikeBanyai (Jan 16, 2015)

One other thing. It was the polystyrene, blue gray or pink board, that you were using, right? I can see them chewing the white expaned bead styrofoam but wonder why the store bought polystyrene hives don't have the same issues. Thanks again.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

It was the pink board, 2" thick I got from Home Depot.


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## MikeBanyai (Jan 16, 2015)

Shucks, thanks again for the heads up..


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

I made some nucs with the blue board foam from Lowe's, then read about the same issues. So they are just sitting there waiting. 

Great minds think in similar channels they say, hope that doesn't mean weak ones do the same. :no:

I wrapped mine in duct tape and was thinking of trying them this spring with splits after I hit them with a layer of varnish. I will let folks know if this crazy idea works but it will be mid April to early May before I am ready to try that.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

some have had success with lining the inside of the nuc with aluminum foil [made for roofs. Has a sticky side got some at Home Depot] I bought some, it's still sitting in the shop. Seems like too much trouble to me. But if I were going to use them I'd try it.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You can line the inside with the heavy duty aluminum foil sheets.
Then use the aluminum foil tape to hold everything together inside.
Not sure if the bees like to live inside an aluminum box. Though you can
put a thin cardboard sheet to line up the inside too after the foil sheets.
It is a fun project if you have the time but at least you can use the foam nuc now.
Has anyone try the TB-3 for the foam edge joints before?


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## MikeBanyai (Jan 16, 2015)

This is a followup to a previous discussion regarding Styrofoam nucs. I am located in Petoskey, 30 miles south of the Mackinaw bridge in northern Michigan. I made 5 frame full depth nucs out of one inch pink foam from the big box. I painted the foam with latex paint both sides while still in the 4x8 sheets. I used 3/8 plywood strips, also painted, along the each edge so that I could use a hive tool on the boxes to pry them apart. I was able to make 6 five frame nucs with 2 tops and 2 bottoms with plywood edges for about 25 dollars in materials. The equivalent stack in wood would be about 145 dollars unassembled. I used gorilla glue to hold them together with some screws to hold while the glue set. I had a 3/8 opening along the bottom front and a one inch hole up at the top. I am happy with them going on more then a year. Folks had reported large problems with the bees chewing the foam. This has not been my experience. I found that if I did not have the wood to wood edges along the horizontal edges, they did chew along the joint, but not if there was wood there. There was no chewing of the vertical joints even though they had a foam to foam joint with the gorilla glue. There was minimal chewing of the inside of the box. I kept three box tall hives(15 full depth frames total) in an unheated shed that had gaps at the door over the winter with about 50% loss. The mite load got out of hand before I could get at them with oxalic last fall, and this is the proximal cause of the winter losses in my opinion. With one inch foam there is not much R factor insulation advantage verses wood. There has not been much propolis on the walls. They do glue the frames to the frame rests with the proplois just like wooden ware, but they were easy to pry apart as each was wood. If you are handy and have more time then money then I found Styrofoam nucs to be a cost effective experiment. They are not for a commercial use as they are admittedly less robust then a wood box, but are plenty good enough for a home hobbyist operation making splits while on a budget. We used a table saw to make the many pieces, a 3 box tall stack with a top and a bottom had more then 50 individual parts. I was able to use a portable Ryobi finish nail gun to hold the wood edges in place while the gorilla glue set. I sprayed the foam with water to activate the glue when the parts were joined . I did try various caulks and glues, even epoxy and in the end the spray water, gorilla glue was the fastest and strongest. I make no claim that this is the best or greatest way to do nucs, just a report of my experience to date with this material in my location being a home hobbyist.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

I have several Coates nucs that are past 5 years and are still as good as when made and these have had bees in them-not just sitting in a shop. When I made them is had a pan that I filled about 3/4" with copper naphthenate. I let each nuc sit in CN and soak for about 3 minutes each side. It was time consuming but worth it. I know this stuff is not approved of by some folks and I'd never put it inside of a hive surface. I also let these nucs dry for months before deploying them is that matters.
I am a big fan of CN IF used only outside the hive and if left to dry a long time.
I am now going to go to dip[ping but I will not dip plywood as it absorbs gobs of wax and may likely delaminate.
My bees have always chewed the pink or blue foam. They don't eat it obviously-they just chew it to get rid of it.
BTW the Lowes near me sells rigid foam insulation that has the aluminum attached to one side. Personally I don't think bees would be very thrilled about living in a metal coated hive. Although with the proper light bulb the shiny aluminum would provide a very nice suntanning bed


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