# Are Neonic Really The Problem?



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

My opinion? As a commercial beekeeping veteran who keeps thousands of hives in "neonic country", systemic seed treatments are the least of your beekeeping worries. Concentrate on good beekeeping management and don't worry about the special interest groups picking and choosing through the latest round of statistics for proof of their point of view. Accept the basic premise that bees are insects, insecticides kill insects, insects destroy crops and farmers won't let their crops be destroyed. From a beekeeping perspective things were far worse prior to seed treatments which target insects feeding on the plant itself when accepted practice in the past was to foliar spray fields which resulted in the death of most every insect (along with a few birds and small animals) both good and bad that came in contact with the spray.


----------



## anthonybshp (Dec 13, 2015)

rsderrick said:


> Are neonicotinoids truly a problem for the honey bee? Are we fighting Big pharma or are we just looking to place the blame on someones shoulders other than ourselves?
> 
> 
> The largest EVER field study does nothing but bring conflicting views and controversy.
> ...


After 54 years of keeping bees, my position is the main problem we have in beekeeping today is "MITES". At present my best yards are in the midst of high production monoculture farming. The problem that I face is that my main production of honey is exactly when I should be applying mite treatments. My best production hives are hit year after year because they are the most productive. Where I'm located the feral hives are thick. My best hives rob them out in mid August after I have mite counts down low. The next thing I know the hives are hit hard and perish come January. The farmers that I deal with are very worried about my bees. They ask all the time if any of their spraying is hurting my bees. So far I haven't had kill offs like I experienced back in the 70's. I listen at bee meetings. I read and learn from the Beesource forums. I read the magazines. I still have things to learn. The MITES create more problems for me than every thing else going.


----------



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Off label pesticide use by all (including beekeepers) is my biggest worry. I think the neonics are fairly narrowly targeted, and don't present much issue for Honey bees, when applied appropriately. Older pesticides were as you know much more broadly targeted and lots of things, including Honey bees were killed outright. The reported sublethal effects do concern me - though I wonder about the difference between being killed out right versus experiencing the unintended consequences of sub-lethal exposure. The planter dust issue should have been solved long ago.


----------



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Jim - I agree, there is less drift with a seed coating than a spray. That is good, I am skeptical that it is harmless. From ISCIRA, it appears our bees do collect corn pollen. Has anyone honest and trustworth studied feeding corn pollen from treated seed?

I actually see mites as a non issue, they can be controlled. 

I see refusal to follow the label as being 98 percent of the problem. I questioned a spray rig operator and he told me it was OK to spray Warrior(lambda-cyhalothrin) on flowering soybeans. The label clearly states otherwise.

Another company I spoke to heard me tell how every other year all of the hives where lost, and calmly replied that the spray soybeans on the odd years.

Crazy Roland


----------



## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

CCD shows up in countries within a year or two of varroa showing up, and seems to stop about 10 years later. Its the mites and the viruses they carry. It has no relation to neonics.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Roland said:


> Jim - I agree, there is less drift with a seed coating than a spray. That is good, I am skeptical that it is harmless. From ISCIRA, it appears our bees do collect corn pollen. Has anyone honest and trustworth studied feeding corn pollen from treated seed?


Didn't say they were harmless, they are insecticides and will most certainly kill bees if they come into direct contact. No doubt bees will occasionally gather corn pollen though I routinely check corn fields near hives and its an event if you spot one. Any kind of study would first have to ascertain IF there are any remaining traces of insecticide in the pollen and then next try to quantify the amount of stored pollen (if any) in the hive that came from corn. The closest thing I know thats been done in this regard was this broad based study showing the most widely used neonics being detected in 1 to 2% of the samples at the ridiculously low LOD of 1ppb. Another such study done a couple of years earlier showed similar numbers.
https://beeinformed.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/2013-2014-NHBS-Report.pdf
No doubt there are localized spray related bee kills regularly throughout the US, I just experienced a pretty bad one myself on the almonds but I think a clear headed read of this report would tell you that the biggest widespread threat to bee health are most likely beekeeper applied pesticides and mite vectored bee viruses. Pick your poison.


----------



## Vectorjet (Feb 20, 2015)

Clearly there are people who want to fight the chemical companies and nothing they ever produce will ever be acceptable. The studies on neonics, like a lot of studies seem to have predictable results based on who is paying for or doing the study. The concern to me is what is the alternative. People are going to protect there crops from pests, and sorry but the green organic alternatives just don't work good enough or are too expensive. Neonics probably cause problems for bees but, it seems to be better then the alternatives.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I only have small patches of non-neonic corn in my garden but every year for a week or two the bees will hit it hard enough that it is intimidating to stand near it. It usually gets its pollen when we are in a derth of sorts or at least not a heavy flow. I have to believe if the fields of corn are what is around that the bees hit it pretty hard. This is not a position one way or the other on neonics which I don't know enough about to have an opinion but more just an observation at my house.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

There is, was, and never will be a study that proves or disproves any theory differently than what it was set out to prove or disprove. I have read studies that report Neonics do not cross the chromosomal barrier and do end up in pollen or fruit! Yet, I have read some that say they have been discovered in pollen. It is a sad state of affairs when "WE THE PEOPLE" cannot trust our government, or the corporations who line their pockets with our hard earned dollars. It is shameless that our university researchers are up for auction. 
I as an educated individual would be inclined to follow my best judgment combined with the observations of other widely experienced beekeepers as Jim Lyon than a report or study that was purchased! 

What ever happened to Ralph Natter?


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Tenbears said:


> What ever happened to Ralph Natter?


Who?


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Tenbears said:


> It is shameless that our university researchers are up for auction.


As a former employee in an entomology lab, I worked with and met numerous research professionals. Like any other profession, there are some bad eggs, but all of those I knew were dedicated to honest research.
I resent it when anyone paints the entire group with such a small-minded brush.


----------



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

beemandan said:


> Who?


OMG! Has it been that long????? Ralph Nader (auto correct in original post) was the nations consumer advocate in the early 70s. During the Nixon era when there was a price freeze. He sued McDonalds for making the burgers in their hamburgers smaller. Resulting in less burger for ones dollar, technically a price increase. That among other things made him the true peoples advocate supreme, and a notable person.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Tenbears said:


> Ralph Nader


 Oh...that Ralph Natter.


----------



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

beemandan said:


> I resent it when anyone paints the entire group with such a small-minded brush.





Tenbears said:


> It is shameless that our university researchers are up for auction.


 Your resentment is actually unfounded. Note, The words "all of" did not precede our university researchers! It is shameless when any educator uses an educational position as a platform for their own means. Be it profit, fame, or simply to promote their views. Be it one educator, or a dozen educators it is shameless! I resent the implication that I am small Minded!


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> In 2008, Germany revoked the registration of clothianidin for use on seed corn after an incident that resulted in the death of millions of nearby honey bees.[32] An investigation revealed that it was caused by a combination of factors:
> 
> failure to use a polymer seed coating known as a “sticker”
> weather conditions that resulted in late planting when nearby canola crops were in bloom;
> ...


It´s not only the use in itself, it´s the carelessness of technique used.

And this is not reflecting about what happens if it accumulates in the environment or what could happen if it does.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

SiWolKe said:


> It´s not only the use in itself, it´s the carelessness of technique used.
> 
> And this is not reflecting about what happens if it accumulates in the environment or what could happen if it does.


Thats the "ya but" that often makes its way into these threads and it may well be true but would be better debated in a different forum than one about beekeeping. The question here is whether neonics are "The Problem" with honey bees and I've given my perspective.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Tenbears said:


> Your resentment is actually unfounded. Note, The words "all of" did not precede our university researchers!


Nor did the phrase 'some of'. Intended or not....it was made as a blanket statement as an 'educated individual' should realize.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

gww said:


> I only have small patches of non-neonic corn in my garden but every year for a week or two the bees will hit it hard enough that it is intimidating to stand near it. It usually gets its pollen when we are in a derth of sorts or at least not a heavy flow. I have to believe if the fields of corn are what is around that the bees hit it pretty hard.


Yes, you are quite right, garden variety sweet corn is quite attractive to bees. Hybrid field corn is entirely different from a bee attraction standpoint. Don't know why, my guess is that the breeding criteria that selects for things like drought resistance, high yield and standibility may work at cross purposes with a plant that also produces high quality bee attractive pollen which is something the grower could care less about. But thats just my guess.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Jim loyn


> Yes, you are quite right, garden variety sweet corn is quite attractive to bees. Hybrid field corn is entirely different from a bee attraction standpoint. Don't know why, my guess is that the breeding criteria that selects for things like drought resistance, high yield and standibility may work at cross purposes with a plant that also produces high quality bee attractive pollen which is something the grower could care less about. But thats just my guess.


I could check it out this year. For the first time in about 15 years they planted corn in dads fields. I won't check it out though cause I have not put any bees out there yet.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Tenbears said:


> Your resentment is actually unfounded. Note, The words "all of" did not precede our university researchers! It is shameless when any educator uses an educational position as a platform for their own means. Be it profit, fame, or simply to promote their views. Be it one educator, or a dozen educators it is shameless! I resent the implication that I am small Minded!


Originally Posted by *Tenbears*  "It is shameless that our university researchers are up for auction."

The clear meaning of this statement is that "[all] university researchers are up for auction." If that wasn't your intent, then simply say "some university researchers . . . . " or "most university researchers . . . ."


----------



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

However it was taken, I explained the intent was not inclusive of every researcher Once already. Or I would have included All!


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Something of interest maybe:

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/where-have-all-insects-gone



> a dedicated group of mostly amateur entomologists who have tracked insect abundance at more than 100 nature reserves in western Europe since the 1980s.





> Beyond the striking drop in overall insect biomass, the data point to losses in overlooked groups for which almost no one has kept records. In the Krefeld data, hover flies—important pollinators often mistaken for bees—show a particularly steep decline.





> Goulson and his colleagues reported in 2015 that nectar and pollen from wildflowers next to treated fields can have higher concentrations of neonicotinoids than the crop plants.





> A team from the University of Regensburg in Germany reported in Scientific Reports in February that exposing the wasp Nasonia vitripennis to just 1 nanogram of one common neonicotinoid cut mating rates by more than half and decreased females' ability to find hosts.





> No one can prove that the pesticides are to blame for the decline, however. "There is no data on insecticide levels, especially in nature reserves," Sorg says.





> The stable catches in southern England are in part due to constant levels of pests such as aphids, which can thrive when their insect predators are removed. Such species can take advantage of a variety of environments, move large distances, and reproduce multiple times per year. Some can even benefit from pesticides because they reproduce quickly enough to develop resistance, whereas their predators decline. "So lots of insects will do great, but the insects that we love may not," Black says.





> Paying attention to what E. O. Wilson calls "the little things that run the world" is worthwhile, Sorg says. "We won't exterminate all insects. That's nonsense. Vertebrates would die out first. But we can cause massive damage to biodiversity—damage that harms us."


----------

