# Configuration of almond bee boxes



## Duncan MacLeod (Jul 24, 2014)

My question is about medium boxes - right now I run all mediums, but have my eye on a trailer load for Almonds, which I would bring down next October. Do you guys place all-medium setups, or are deeps just the unwavering standard? Your feedback would be appreciated, either here or in a PM. Thanks!

Kind Regards,
Duncan MacLeod


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## Shouse (Jul 1, 2010)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Hi Duncan,

Yep, for us double deeps are the “unwavering standard” it has to do with our marketing to the growers and their perception, they want to see doubles. 

Even if the top or bottom box has only 8 frames, they want to see “DOUBLES” in the field.

Think of it as having the perfect running car for sale, but it is filthy dirty and has a bad paint job. It is going to be hard to sell.

We place a few deeps with a medium as long as the total frame count hits an average of 8 frames. Then the problem with the mediums are the frame feeders. You want the 1 gallon feeders pre and post almond bloom to feed the bees. 
And, We only over winter double deeps.
<snipped by mod>

I know this is no want you want to here, but I hope this helps.

Please do not hesitate to ask any other questions.


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## Duncan MacLeod (Jul 24, 2014)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Steve,

Thanks much for the reply and all the info. I'm not disappointed or discouraged, per se, I am at the build-up stage of things and moving some of my operation into deep equipment isn't such a big deal. I just wanted to confirm if it was necessary, and it sounds like it is. My winter shop-time is taking concrete shape!

I will give you a call soon to chat more....thanks again!

Kind Regards,
Duncan


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Duncan,

I see three medium hives in almonds every year but deeps are a standard. You could rent out 3 medium hives but with other brokers. As long as you have good bees, you wont have a problem.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

3 mediums= 2 deeps
We run a deep and a medium and don't have trouble getting them rented. Lots of bees in the boxes is what growers want.


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## Shouse (Jul 1, 2010)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



RAK said:


> Duncan,
> 
> I see three medium hives in almonds every year but deeps are a standard. You could rent out 3 medium hives but with other brokers. As long as you have good bees, you wont have a problem.


Yep, some brokers will take anything, as long has they meet the average frame requirements. 

All things being equal, a grower will chose a double deep over three mediums.

It is just our policy to deal with all double deeps when we can and we do not have a problem with getting them.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Yikes!!!


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



Shouse said:


> All things being equal, a grower will chose a double deep over three mediums.


In my exp. it all depends on the grower. There are the ones that could care less if the have rotted out single and halves or white doubles. As long as they are busting with bees... and there are others that still pay by the box. They are easier to work with. I deal with 5 growers and use single and halves and doubles. Never had an issue.


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## Shouse (Jul 1, 2010)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Yes it does all depend on the grower and the price.

Last month we received a 600 hive contract from a grower requesting bid proposals. Our price was the same as last years beekeeper's, the grower was not going to go with us until I pointed out from a picture he had that he was renting a deep and a medium hive and that our hives were double deeps... After explaining the difference between the two, we got the contract and a referral to another Grower. The contract is for an 8 frame average, the deep and a medium may of had 8 frames but the grower's perception was he is getting a bigger bang for his buck with double deeps.

I see a lot of 8 frame singles in the orchards too. These growers want cheep hives, they can have them.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

We run all singles. I get paid for a six frame average. And am allowed a 4 frame minimum. Most are pushing 8 frames. Singles make sense for me. No easier inspection than tipping up a single!!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



Shouse said:


> until I pointed out from a picture he had that he was renting a deep and a medium hive and that our hives were double deeps... After explaining the difference between the two,


Steve, can you please point out the difference between a story an a half verses a double deep as it relates to Almond pollination?
Thanks for your time.


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## Shouse (Jul 1, 2010)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Square Inches!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



Shouse said:


> Yes it does all depend on the grower and the price.
> 
> Last month we received a 600 hive contract from a grower requesting bid proposals. Our price was the same as last years beekeeper's, the grower was not going to go with us until I pointed out from a picture he had that he was renting a deep and a medium hive and that our hives were double deeps... After explaining the difference between the two, we got the contract and a referral to another Grower. The contract is for an 8 frame average, the deep and a medium may of had 8 frames but the grower's perception was he is getting a bigger bang for his buck with double deeps.


The growers perception when? Before or after your "explanation"?  Wouldn't you agree that if a single holds a maximum of 10 frames of bees, a double 20 and a story and a half around 16 frames that capacity isn't the issue but rather the quality of the bees contained therein?


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Hey, I wonder which hive flies sooner on a cool February morning, a 8 frame single or an 8 frame double?? Oh wait, no one cares about that.


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## Tony Rogers (Oct 18, 2012)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Interesting stuff! Hey what about double deeps that are double queened. I mean deeps that are divided down the middle with a queen on each side? Would that be acceptable? The reason I ask is that I have extra queens right now and I have several weak hives. I had thought of killing queens and combining hives. Then I remember Michael Palmer's nucs and thought perhaps I could combine that way and instead of killing queens I could add queens allowing for the hive to build up faster prior to going into the Almonds.

Thoughts?


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



Shouse said:


> Square Inches!


This actually makes sense to me for many reasons. Think about it this way, beekeepers all over the globe that are trying to make a crop of honey want one major thing. To have a hive full of bees at the optimum time to have a field force large enough to get that crop made. We always push our bees to build up as fast as possible to that maximum number and then throw on supers. In the case of the Almond growers, having a box that is 8 frames of bees in a double deep represent the ability to have a large field force.

We then have to think a moment about what happens during the time the bees are there. They go at the trees non stop for 6 to 8 weeks and build up like crazy. The temps there get warmer, releasing more bees to the field meaning less to have to cover the brood during the day. As the bees sit there, they have the ability to turn out nearly 2 full brood cycles which means even more pollination.

Now here's where the diff in the amount of space comes in. With a "Single" that thing is going to pack out so quickly that there won't be any room for brood rearing. With a "Deep & 1/2" again, they are going to start shoving the queen back down into the bottom and not have as many bees in the air. With a "Double Deep" the queen will again be pushed down a bit, however she's still got the entire bottom to work in, and probably half of the top. So they continue to pump out the brood, and field workers. 

Basically this is why Square Inches makes sense to me, and should make sense to everyone when it comes to pollination and honey cropping. IMO..


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



drlonzo said:


> Basically this is why Square Inches makes sense to me, and should make sense to everyone when it comes to pollination and honey cropping. IMO..


Is this the commercial thread ????


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## Shouse (Jul 1, 2010)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



jim lyon said:


> The growers perception when? Before or after your "explanation"? Wouldn't you agree that if a single holds a maximum of 10 frames of bees, a double 20 and a story and a half around 16 frames that capacity isn't the issue but rather the quality of the bees contained therein?


Jim, you are 100% dead on! But the growers we deal with want quality and quantity. The growers perception is their reality. This grower came to the conclusion, "why should I pay the same price for 25% less." 

And as Andy Rooney says. "_People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."_

Everyone has their own rationale, what may work for some beekeeper or grower will not work for others. Find your niche and stick to it. If your niche is providing 8 frame singles, go market the heck out of it, there are growers out there willing to accept them. If you want deeps with a medium there's a big market out there also. 

As a broker that deals 99.99% with double deeps and markets them to growers that want them, I want the rest of the world (beekeepers) to deal in the hive and a half market, 8 frame singles, or triple mediums market. There is enough room for everyone and every grower has their preferences.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



drlonzo said:


> This actually makes sense to me for many reasons. Think about it this way, beekeepers all over the globe that are trying to make a crop of honey want one major thing. To have a hive full of bees at the optimum time to have a field force large enough to get that crop made. We always push our bees to build up as fast as possible to that maximum number and then throw on supers. In the case of the Almond growers, having a box that is 8 frames of bees in a double deep represent the ability to have a large field force.
> 
> We then have to think a moment about what happens during the time the bees are there. They go at the trees non stop for 6 to 8 weeks and build up like crazy. The temps there get warmer, releasing more bees to the field meaning less to have to cover the brood during the day. As the bees sit there, they have the ability to turn out nearly 2 full brood cycles which means even more pollination.
> 
> ...


You haven't worked a lot of almonds , have you?

It's the honey you're after.  inch:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



Shouse said:


> Square Inches!


Perhaps you meant cubic inches? The square inches is the same either setup.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



Shouse said:


> Last month we received a 600 hive contract from a grower requesting bid proposals. Our price was the same as last years beekeeper's, the grower was not going to go with us until I pointed out from a picture he had that he was renting a deep and a medium hive and that our hives were double deeps... After explaining the difference between the two, we got the contract
> .


That right there pretty much sums things up. A double deep is automatically better than a deep an a medium, an I have a picture to prove it. lol


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

I wonder if he told him there were more square inches?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

A deep body *does* have more _square _inches than a medium body if you consider the square inches of the comb surfaces in the box (as opposed to the cubic inches of the box itself).


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

I think it's important to point out that what growers are paying for is how much brood and how many bees are in the hives at the beginning of the bloom. An egg that is layed on the first day of bloom won't result in a worker that is going to be able to do any almond pollinating because the length of the blooming period is pretty close to the length of time it takes to raise a mature field bee. In other words the hive buildup is a gain or loss for the beekeeper not the almond grower.


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## Shouse (Jul 1, 2010)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



Barry said:


> I wonder if he told him there were more square inches?


So you think a Hoffman medium frame has the same square inches as a deep frame....Hmmmm... just too funny!

"That right there pretty much sums things up. A double deep is automatically better than a deep an a medium, an I have a picture to prove it. lol"


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

What is even more important than the square inches or cubic inches of boxes is the color.
All of my boxes are the same color, and with fresh paint.
Freshly painted boxes are a much better deal than old decaying ugly boxes.

Notice to all almond growers: Are the boxes that you are paying for as pretty as my boxes?
;(


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



HarryVanderpool said:


> What is even more important than the square inches or cubic inches of boxes is the color.
> ;(


BLUE


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



Shouse said:


> So you think a Hoffman medium frame has the same square inches as a deep frame....Hmmmm... just too funny!


Now things are really getting confusing. Does this mean if you run 10 frames per box that your bees will be approximately 10% better than if you are running 9 frames and an inside feeder? If so perhaps the grower should be informed of this as well?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Interjecting into the conversation about doubles vs everything else I fail to see why people are so bent out of shape about the boxes when its the bees that do the pollinating?

Over the course of the years I have seen many singles that contained way more bees than nicely painted boxes full of beeless frames.

Are were discussing the rental of bees or Boxes?


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Well, some folks advertise by the box. The frames are just a bonus.


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## Shouse (Jul 1, 2010)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



Honey-4-All said:


> Are were discussing the rental of bees or Boxes?


I believe we are discussing the rental of Bees.

However, several "beekeepers" suggest that you can only have the same number of bees per square inch (of frame) in a medium box as you do in a deep.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



Shouse said:


> I believe we are discussing the rental of Bees..


No, look at your own post on this thread "Steve", you put down everything but a double deep, as if all double deeps are jammed with bees in late January, I know plenty of good keepers that run various configurations of hives that are good pollinators in the almonds.
<snip by mod>


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



Shouse said:


> I believe we are discussing the rental of Bees.
> 
> However, several "beekeepers" suggest that you can only have the same number of bees per square inch (of frame) in a medium box as you do in a deep.


Would like to know what percentage of the bees you place in the almonds exceed a deep with a medium in volume bee wise? 

IMHO there is more than enough space in this combination for 99% of all bees placed in the almonds. The only beekeeper who I know who absolutely needs the extra few cubic inches runs blue boxes out of Amador county. 

I'm almost positive that I could bet the farm that over 90% of the hives you placed last year did not exceed 4200 cubic inches of bees and frames. If you did they would grade out at over 15 frames? The double deeps are for show in almost all cases.


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## Shouse (Jul 1, 2010)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



Keith Jarrett said:


> No, look at your own post on this thread "Steve", you put down everything but a double deep, as if all double deeps are jammed with bees in late January, I know plenty of good keepers that run various configurations of hives that are good pollinators in the almonds.
> <snip by mod>


Keith, 
<snip by mod>

Number 1) I am not putting down everything but double deeps. We only market to growers who want double deeps. Doesn't mean there is not a market for say... single 8's.

Number 2) I too know plenty of good keepers that run various configurations of hives that are good pollinators in the almonds.

Number 3) Not all double deeps are "jammed with bees in January" But all of the one WE take to almonds are.

Number 4) We run more hive's in Almonds and North Dakota in One year than you do in Five.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



Honey-4-All said:


> Would like to know what percentage of the bees you place in the almonds exceed a deep with a medium in volume bee wise?
> 
> IMHO there is more than enough space in this combination for 99% of all bees placed in the almonds. The only beekeeper who I know who absolutely needs the extra few cubic inches runs blue boxes out of Amador county.
> 
> I'm almost positive that I could bet the farm that over 90% of the hives you placed last year did not exceed 4200 cubic inches of bees and frames. If you did they would grade out at over 15 frames? The double deeps are for show in almost all cases.


Yes, but as Steve stated earlier "perception is reality" particularly when the growers perception is based, at least in part, by "explanations" from brokers about what they may have gotten last year based on ummmmmm pictures of the boxes.


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## Shouse (Jul 1, 2010)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Here's is what one can surmise from seeing a picture with one double deep and one medium. The medium with 9 frames, covered 75% with bees/brood will NOT exceed a deep with 9 frames covered with 75% bees and brood. As Honey 4 all pointed out; Double deeps max out at 18 frames assuming 9 in the top and 9 in the bottom. Deeps with a medium 9 in the bottom and 9 in the top max out at 12.

It is better to have the space and not need it then to need the space and not have it.

Honey 4 all I will take you up on your bet. Our top box will have more frames of bees covered 75% than the maximum amount of any medium box you show me.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Yikes!


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

As we continue to parse terms your attempted diversion of the topic at hand with reference to the number of bees in the "top" box is irrelevant. There was no previous discussion about the top box alone. Are you attempting to say that someone who uses a deep medium combination with the small box on the bottom could get less bees in their top box than someone with a double deep?:s

This is turning into a mind numbing shell game! We were discussing the "need" of double deeps to "contain" all the bees within a hive during almond pollination. Once again I am going to reiterate that I think that it is quite unnecessary for the quantity of bees within 95% of all the hives placed in the almonds. Less volume will work more than adequately. To surpass the need of a deep medium one would need 15 or more frames of bees in your hives. Do you really grade out at 15 frames or better on 95% of your placed hives. If so I think that even Keith would love to work for you so as to ascertain what secret formula you hold that puts your operation on ultra steroid mode mid February.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



jim lyon said:


> In other words the hive buildup is a gain or loss for the beekeeper not the almond grower.


'
Not withstanding the fact that a lot of hungry mouths require a lot of food! While the bees are in the almonds that food would be supplied by foragers working the trees I would assume? More mouths to feed would precipitate the need for additional foraging I would think! This would best be described as a win / win for both grower and beek! ????


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## Shouse (Jul 1, 2010)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Honey for all.

It real simple; A medium with 9 frames, 75% covered with bees, doesn't not equal one deep 75% covered with bees.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



Honey-4-All said:


> '
> Not withstanding the fact that a lot of hungry mouths require a lot of food! While the bees are in the almonds that food would be supplied by foragers working the trees I would assume? More mouths to feed would precipitate the need for additional foraging I would think! This would best be described as a win / win for both grower and beek! ????


I'm refuting the notion posted earlier that the almond bloom lasts 6 to 8 weeks and that two full brood cycles can be hatched out during the blooming period. My assertion is that the vast majority of the almond pollination that any hive is capable of is going to be carried out by the bees in the hive plus the brood "in the pipeline" at the beginning of the bloom. That's what's hard to get and that's what the growers are paying the big bucks for. Yes it's a win/win. (Fungicides notwithstanding). The growers win if big hives are in place on Valentine's day and the beekeeper wins with the population growth from those hives by the ides of March.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



jim lyon said:


> I'm refuting the notion posted earlier that the almond bloom lasts 6 to 8 weeks and that two full brood cycles can be hatched out during the blooming period.


Six weeks is a stretch in almost all cases for the same field. Anyone wishing to see a 8 week almond bloom is going to pass as many years as Methuselah if they wish to see such an occurrence more than once in their life.

If one includes every bloom from the first one open till the last one on a replant one year old on the last variety it might be possible. 

Any beekeeper willingly waiting around for that to happen can have a grower Keith might have contact info if he's not already given up on him. Willing to cough up Randy H. info yet Keith? We might have a buyer!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Wow, after reading all of this just leave me speechless. Not worth answering anymore.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



Keith Jarrett said:


> Wow, after reading all of this just leave me speechless. Not worth answering anymore.


Speechless, yes. I decided to trust the wisdom of the forum members to read and decide. Remember the old cartoon ads for x-Ray specs? You know, for just .99 you can see through lots of things, probably even wooden boxes. Not sure why, but that image just kept popping into my head while reading some of the posts on here.


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## MNbees (May 27, 2013)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



HarryVanderpool said:


> What is even more important than the square inches or cubic inches of boxes is the color.
> All of my boxes are the same color, and with fresh paint.
> Freshly painted boxes are a much better deal than old decaying ugly boxes.
> 
> ...


Thats what california thinks..


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## Duncan MacLeod (Jul 24, 2014)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Sort of speechless, the thread really took off and it has been...entertaining? illuminating? oddly inspiring?...to listen in on the many and varied perspectives. It is only mildly helpful to listen in on what seem to be long-running disagreements about basic approaches between many of you, conflicts that play themselves out with amusing regularity on many threads. But I do appreciate the good stuff that can be gleaned throughout, so thank you, I mean it, for taking up the question with such energy. And, as Jim suggested, the responsibility for sifting through it all and making a choice for myself ultimately rests with me and I need to own it with as much vigor as you all own your positions. I will see you all in the almonds one day soon....

Thanks again!
Kind Regards,
Duncan


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

I'm still trying to figure out, how a 8 frame average double deep has more bees than an 8 frame average deep and medium..... That is assuming the brood is in the deep.....


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

In 37 years of going to almonds, we have taken 8 frame double deeps, 10 frame double deeps. 2 and 3 mediums,deep/mediums. The only thing that mattered then , and now , is how many bees are in the boxes.The growers aren't dumb. The hive configuration is only important to your management style and moving equipment. Plus who you are working with, if they are moving your hives.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*



loggermike said:


> In 37 years of going to almonds, we have taken 8 frame double deeps, 10 frame double deeps. 2 and 3 mediums,deep/mediums. The only thing that mattered then , and now , is how many bees are in the boxes.The growers aren't dumb. The hive configuration is only important to your management style and moving equipment. Plus who you are working with, if they are moving your hives.



Amen! 

Anything implying that one box configuration is superior to another when discounting the bees inside is just a sales gimmick!

Anyone who has more bees in his box than the one with pretty empty big boxes will always get a home in the almonds for his/her bees before the shiner!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Amen x 2. Common sense is breaking out all over.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

That about sums it up Mike, I mean when looking at a deep+med vs 2 deeps, unless you have 20 frames of bees, fully covered frames, there's not going to be much of a noticeable difference....

That being said, I have some jumbo boxes available, if you take that 8 frame average box of bees, and slap these babies on top, it's way better than just slapping another deep on.... way more bees when you drop them off to the farmer a couple weeks later...... You might as well just be dropping shallows on top if you ain't using these....


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Jumbos,lol. Never went there, but did think about it once...

Hive configuration has been a subject for much thought and discussion over the years. A friend with a few thousand deep/mediums said if he was starting over , he would go with the 8 frame double deeps. We started with double deep 8 framers ,then went to double 10 framers as that was more a standard. Then to deep/mediums as they were easier to load by hand, then later with booms.

Now that most of our hives are on clip pallets, we are back to double deeps again. Just makes splitting and combining easier.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Amen X3......

It's a slippery slope when one has to put another keeper down just to acquire a lousy 600 hive spot in the almonds. Really hope the audience is understanding all of this, especially the small out-of-stater that want's to come to Cali. I started the " California dreamin" that I & Randy wrote for the ABJ about this very subject.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

*Re: Labor Cost Overwintering Bees In California?*

Amen X4. 

Good luck to everyone this winter!


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## Heavenly bees (Mar 27, 2011)

Seems to me they have no problem renting these boxes 
2012 Almond pollination.mp4: http://youtu.be/lxcpGJ_2Df8


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dang HB, no room in those hives for anymore bees, is there?

What were you doing on the bottom board? Were you moving or reducing the entrance?

Interesting discussion guys. I think I'll stay home.  "A man's got to know his limitations." Said some guy from CA.


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## Heavenly bees (Mar 27, 2011)

Not my hives. But would like them to be


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Heavenly bees said:


> Not my hives. But would like them to be


Who wouldn't?

And just imagine how much better they would look in double deeps


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

There'd be more room for Keith's NutraBee, seems like.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> There'd be more room for Keith's NutraBee, seems like.


HA.... Those are Nick Noyes bees, also a bee source member.

P.S. Mark, I wonder what kind of sub Tony & Nick feed?????


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tony and Nick? Nick Noyes?

P.S. Keith, I'm still trying to figure out a way to get to CA and get some of your product.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

That's pretty simple, Mark. Drive to Chicago and pay me a visit. Then drive to Farmington and visit BD. Then you head SW and you'll run into Kieth. That will only put 6,000 miles on your vehicle!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Then I have to drive home.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

After watching that video my back is in traction, and I wasn't doing any of the lifting!! Nice bees for sure!


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

That sub is doing wonders in the hive ! Magical bee feed for sure  
I wonder how many of those hives decided they wanted a bigger box setup because there didn't look like much room for any more bees in them, those are crazy strong !! 
Might have been some nice swarms in the trees


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Would he be close to shaking those bees? 
Or was that before the almonds ?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Ian, that was just before move in to the almonds.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Keith, do you recommend feeding the sub fresh as we know Nick did here, or is it best to let it "season" outside for a couple of years.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Ha HA Jimmy.....lol

Here another year same results.
http://youtu.be/PYbLbhZXizY

I know, shameless...


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

So....

If we had to pick the best hives for the GROWER, who would win??????

OH, I fore got to mention, Steve is the Judge.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keith, how come your covers come off so easily and hive bodies come apart so easily? Don't the bees make any propolis out there in CA? Or had you just been into those hives that morning or the day before?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Mark, we feed & inspect one final time once they hit the almonds, note half way through that video where we spilled syrup in front of a hive.
It's called old fashion beekeeping.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ian, that was just before move in to the almonds.


Thanks Keith! 
You guys must be quick on colony reduction after you pull them from the almonds!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Mark, we feed & inspect one final time once they hit the almonds, note half way through that video where we spilled syrup in front of a hive.
> It's called old fashion beekeeping.


I missed that because I skipped down the line to where you opened the hives. I know you didn't make that video for me, but I have seen bee boxes before. I was most interested in seeing what was inside those boxes.  Thanks. 

I have never fed bees when I drop them in apples in NY. Get them ready to go into the orchards. Set them in the orchards. Get them out as soon as the orchard owner says to. Don't open hives once they are on the ground in the apple orchards. That's the old fashion beekeeping I'm used to.

I so enjoy seeing what things look like and how they are done on the other side of the country. Thanks for your Posts.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Ah.. apples and almonds,:scratch: If you don't feed in the almonds some years you can have hungry bees.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> I have never fed bees when I drop them in apples in NY. Get them ready to go into the orchards. Set them in the orchards. Get them out as soon as the orchard owner says to. Don't open hives once they are on the ground in the apple orchards. That's the old fashion beekeeping I'm used to..


Mark, a lot more goes on now than it use to, fungicide spraying will make EFB break out, one must treat with TM to counter this, plus the growers see you actively in the bees so it helps build better relations as the bloom comes and goes. If a grower is going to pay you $175-200 a hive you should show up to the party don't ya think.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Flyer Jim said:


> Ah.. apples and almonds,:scratch: If you don't feed in the almonds some years you can have hungry bees.


The same is true in blueberries. I didn't feed the first year I had bees in blueberries. I do now though. Sometimes one has to learn from doing.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> If a grower is going to pay you $175-200 a hive you should show up to the party don't ya think.


For sure. My experience has been limited to apples and blueberries. My blueberry grower doesn't mind me working the bees, but at least one of my apple growers doesn't like it at all. He feels that if the weather is good enough to work bees the bees should be working the trees and that working bees throws them off for that day. 

I had not thought about fungicide spraying as the stimulus for my EFB this past Spring. Thanks.


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

Apples bloom after almonds--almonds command a premium price because they bloom at the bees natural
dormancy period--in these parts cherry -apricot -peach fallow so close to almond you can get a premium
If hives are needed--not so for apples-apples they are taken up by keepers looking for a place to HOLD there bees
apples has taken a bad hit for growers and beekeepers--cant pay for the picking in these parts and we are a major
part of the fruit bowl-drought impact included--cali is where the early fruit comes from--folks that dont make the journey
dont understand-this whole dynamic- things can change-and always does with any give change in nature-last years drought was
induced by high presser bubbles that sat and pushed the storms away-its not because there where no storms---it would have been
normal rain fall as usual-but not so when storms got pushed up north---this is what i am getting today from farmers and
growers in central california--they tell me that the water districs are not going to release any more water than last year-
it will take two years to recover if all goes well--I have growers that have set ground wells this year -at the tune of $300000 
thats right three hundred thoushound dollars--almonds are the driving force-there will not be a need for the same amount of hives--this year--next year should boom--Apples wont pay for a new queen or the cost of the move-- with this being said there are years when it rains for the majority of the almond bloom this is one of the chalenges to runing power house coloniens- my friend they can starve out in two weeks (rain and more rain is the norm in almonds) even going in heavy these types of colonies present a whole different set of dynamics to run good luck on the apples--RDY-B


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks RDY-B.


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Mark, a lot more goes on now than it use to, fungicide spraying will make EFB break out, one must treat with TM to counter this,


Am I reading this right? Just about everyone going to almonds have to treat with antibiotics to stop efb developing, and this is due to fungicide sprays? Is the causative agent, mellisococus plutonium, endemic in your bees?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Your reading this right.

Almond pollination adds enough stress on the hives to where EFB seems to start breaking out.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

RDY-B said:


> my friend they can starve out in two weeks (rain and more rain is the norm in almonds) -RDY-B



Yes they can but I have never had it happen. Last time it was even close was 06. 

Since this thread is about configuration I can tell you that those who are usually worrying about this while the bees sit in the almonds are the folks who tossed in singles... They can get toasted fast. 


Having it happen depends on a few factors beyond the rain and singles: 

1. Location. Some almond locations are bee deserts. You show up there and they are toast if you don't care for them. I think most of the old timers know where these locations are. They tend to pay a few more bucks for the risk.... and the feed. Our bees loose weight in the almonds maybe once every 6 or 7 years at the most. Very rare. 

2. Any box full of enough bees to starve out in the almonds is just an opportunity to grab more bulk bees for grafting, mating nucs, and packages.:thumbsup:Get some out even if its a lite shake!!!!

3. One needs to have adequate syrup, equipment, and man power at hand to deal with the worst of times if the rain does show. ( four wheel drive vehicles including ATV's in some locations.) Those who aren't may be sorry they ever showed up for the gold rush. 

4. GO GIANTS!!!!


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

mbc said:


> Am I reading this right? Just about everyone going to almonds have to treat with antibiotics to stop efb developing, and this is due to fungicide sprays? Is the causative agent, mellisococus plutonium, endemic in your bees?


I go to almonds and never treat for anything except varroa...


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Your reading this right.
> 
> Almond pollination adds enough stress on the hives to where EFB seems to start breaking out.





RAK said:


> I go to almonds and never treat for anything except varroa...


Thanks, a million miles away from my beekeeping but fascinating incites none the less.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Heavenly bees said:


> Seems to me they have no problem renting these boxes
> 2012 Almond pollination.mp4: http://youtu.be/lxcpGJ_2Df8


The grower did go ahead and accept these bees even though they are not double deeps. If I remember right they went with Joe Traynor. Joe has a guy that goes through the hives and counts how many frames are covered with live bees. We call that guy the bee inspector. As long as the bee inspector finds 10 frames (mediums count as 2/3's frame) covered with live bees ,we get paid.
When there are enough live bees foraging in an almond orchard, nuts get set. Lots of almonds = happy almond grower.
Happy almond growers are usually seen driving around there orchards looking at bees foraging on almond bloom. Really happy almond growers complain that they have to keep the windows rolled up on pickup because
e there are bees everywhere.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And they live in nicer houses than beekeepers can afford.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> And they live in nicer houses than beekeepers can afford.


Nobody stopping anyone from growing almonds, last time I looked it's still a pretty much free country. But, get out and vote, we sure need a CHANGE in the direction in this country.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

And they drive nicer trucks too. Which is good, cause if they do good ,so do I :thumbsup:


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Nobody stopping anyone from growing almonds, last time I looked it's still a pretty much free country. But, get out and vote, we sure need a CHANGE in the direction in this country.


 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

loggermike said:


> And they drive nicer trucks too. Which is good, cause if they do good ,so do I :thumbsup:


Yes, for sure. I wasn't being derisive. Just that I have noticed blueberry growers in NC and apple growers in NY seem to be higher up the food chain than most of the beekeepers I know. Just an observation and it may not be true and we can all do something more lucrative if we wish. Ain't nobody holdin' a gun to our heads, makin' us work bees for a living.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I know, its an observation we all have made. I was just pointing out that its easier to squeeze a few more bucks out of the growers if they are doing really good as opposed to ones that aren't!

Having said that, lack of water is a big question mark in next years almond pollination.As will be the bee supply, based on stories of collapsing hives that are starting to filter in.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

loggermike said:


> ......lack of water is a big question mark in next years almond pollination.


Mike, are you hearing of water / almond problems around your (our) area?



loggermike said:


> ....the bee supply, based on stories of collapsing hives that are starting to filter in.


What are you hearing?
Thanx!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Shasta is at 24% last time I heard.... that's a major problem


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

We are starting to get a few rainstorms now. The ground is wet , but there has been 0 runoff from this area . Mt Shasta has snow finally.Hard to tell what winter will bring, but it needs to be a LOT to fill the reservoirs.

The 'collapsing hives' from late mite treatments - too early to tell what impact overall that will have. The honey hotline mentioned something. I dont have more than a hunch right now. Too busy trying to catch up. I can say the hives I was late treating here look like. But the timely treated ones look good.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

loggermike said:


> I can say the hives I was late treating here look like. But the timely treated ones look good.


For all the hobbyist who have dreams of going big you might want to copy,paste, and print about 100 copies of the above quote. Post it everywhere you look all day long. If this doesn't sum up the current gist of commercial beekeeping nothing does.


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm not a commercial beek (I'm a hobby beek) but I like learning about all different aspects of the beekeeping industry. I've always assumed the reason for 8 frame double deeps being the benchmark hive was based on scientific studies that were done to see how well hives of certain strength could collect pollen since the collection of more pollen would equate to more pollinating taking place. And that strength was a measure of the number of bees in a hive at the beginning of the pollination period, amount of brood to make sure bees were stimulated to forage, health of bees, and importantly that there was adequate room (hence the double deep) in a hive for colony expansion and food storage so that foraging activity would not be suppressed. 

This article https://ucanr.edu/repositoryfiles/ca2408p5-63783.pdf is the only article I could find where a study had been done like this. Does anyone else know of others? I used the data in this article to see how much pollen was collected in relation to the amount of bees in a hive. The productivity data (amount of pollen collected per frame of bees) after you get up above 12 frames of bees per hive gets very erratic which I am assuming is because the number of strong hives used in the study drops off to single digit numbers after you get above hives with 8 frames of bees. I'm curious about other studies since to see how the data would point toward providing a value for a hive based off of a benchmark price used for healthy, double deep, 8-frames of bees hives. Stronger hives up to around 9-12 frames of bees, based on this study, do point to an exponentially higher monetary value for the hive as a pollinator. But, with the low number of strong hives above 8-frames of bees used in the study, I wonder how accurate this data actually is. Also, have types of bees, termperature, and other variables been accounted for in studies. 

With the millions of dollars involved in bee pollination I would think that there have been more studies completed that provides more data. Can someone point me in the direction of this data?


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

One lesson that the bees are really good at teaching us is that, "The truth prevails".

How do we want to manage our bees in the fall to give every advantage for overwintering?

Young queens.
Sufficient honey & pollen stores.
Pest & diseases addressed in the best manner available.
Additional protein and carbs fed into fall to maximize winter bee nutrition. 
Equipment suitable for overwintering based on geographic region.

When we fail, or worse yet, DECIDE not to do our job as a beekeeper; when we ignore the lessons learned and stumble, the truth will prevail.
If I pick an apple, hold out my hand and release it, it will not fly straight up into the sky.
When I release it, the truth prevails.

I say over and over every year in our bee meetings, that, "All of the most important work is done in late summer / early fall".
And I am very grateful for those that have shared their hard learned lessons.
Their truths, taught to them (and me if I fail) by the bees, almost always prevails.
Once in a while, ****amamie nonsense will seem to work for a season.
Don't be fooled! You're on borrowed time.
Do your job as a beekeeper and let the truth prevail about you and your bees!


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

"All of the most important work is done in late summer / early fall".
Couldn't agree more! For all the reasons you mentioned. My beekeeping isn't perfect, but at least I know who to blame when there are poor results.


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