# My Varroa Mite colony is infested with Honeybees!



## John D. Smith (Mar 17, 2003)

I've been chemical free when treating Varroa for my 2nd season. I fogged in early April and got a mite drop of 24. I fogged on the 16th and got 65!. I fogged again yesterday, the 17th and I just counted 67. That's a problem... I've been documenting mite drop and planned to compare FGMO to OA as part of my Master's project, but the responsible thing to do is use some Check-Mite before the bees crash. I've already got a super on and the colony is packed. I've read that 40 mites/24hrs is the threshold for treatment. Is that for fall when the bee pop. drops or is that spring when the bees pouring out entrance? I don't want to use chemicals, but I don't see that I have a choice. Any thoughts? I hate parasites in general, but this useless beast REALLY makes me mad. and has now ruined my project. Does anyone else have data on mite drop using FGMO and/or OA?


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

The vital thing is the daily drop without treatment. What's that? If you're getting sixty-odd after treatment, that doesn't sound too bad.

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Regards,

Robert Brenchley

[email protected]
Birmingham UK


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I've been chemical free when treating Varroa for my 2nd season. I fogged in early April and got a mite drop of 24. I fogged on the 16th and got 65!. I fogged again yesterday, the 17th and I just counted 67. 

Do you count what fell BEFORE the treatment and then AFTER the treatment? Hard to say what the numbers mean otherwise.

>That's a problem... I've been documenting mite drop and planned to compare FGMO to OA as part of my Master's project, but the responsible thing to do is use some Check-Mite before the bees crash.

I don't think using Check-Mite is ever "the responsible" thing. From my experience it's a quick way to kill all the bees. Why not OA? It will knock the mites down just as well and it's not nearly as deadly to the bees and to you.

>I've already got a super on and the colony is packed. I've read that 40 mites/24hrs is the threshold for treatment. Is that for fall when the bee pop. drops or is that spring when the bees pouring out entrance? I don't want to use chemicals, but I don't see that I have a choice. Any thoughts?

Oxalic Acid? FGMO with thymol? Formic Acid?

>I hate parasites in general, but this useless beast REALLY makes me mad. and has now ruined my project. Does anyone else have data on mite drop using FGMO and/or OA?

I used just the FGMO fog on many hives last year and a combination of small cell and FGMO fog on others and finished off in the fall with an Oxalic acid treatment with the assumption that the mite drop was the total mite load. Basically I had about 200 mites per hive with slightly more on the large cell and slightly less on the small cell. All in all I thought that was reasonably effective. After the oxalic acid in the fall and one more in the spring the Apiary was inspected and the inspector did sugar rolls and found no mites.

So the FGMO didn't kill all the mites, but kept the populations reasonable. The OA in the fall and again in the spring killed virtually all the mites.

I used Bwrangler's (Topbarguy's) simple evaporator.


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## John D. Smith (Mar 17, 2003)

I guess I worded my "responsibility" comment incorrectly. I meant I should prevent the bees from dying by taking some kind of additional action. I have the OA evaporator, but was going to use it in only one colony in order to compare it to FGMO. I was in the process of establishing a valid basline when I got two "60"s in a row. Last year I fogged pretty irregularly and never counted the drop. Maybe my documented numbers are normal given the bee population. I guess I will use the OA in the morning. Is it possible to use OA too much? If I treated with FGMO on a daily basis and got a baseline and then treated daily with OA to see the effectiveness would that be too stressful (I realize that any change in the status quo is stressful for the bees)? The entire course of treatments lastling a week to 10 days. I only learned of OA use in March and I don;t know if you can over use it. I don't feel that treating with FGMO everyday would be THAT bad for a colony. Thanks for the advice.

I should also mention that I've never done a 24hr drop test on an untreated colony, but I see now how that is important when judging infestation levels.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I guess I worded my "responsibility" comment incorrectly. I meant I should prevent the bees from dying by taking some kind of additional action. I have the OA evaporator, but was going to use it in only one colony in order to compare it to FGMO. I was in the process of establishing a valid basline when I got two "60"s in a row.

I'm still having bit of trouble just doing mite counts after treatments. If you only compare mite counts after treatments then OA will give you a big drop because it will kill a lot of mites all at once. The FGMO fog isn't going to kill the majority of the mites in one shot but will kill some every time. Unless you compare the drop BEFORE the treatment to the drop AFTER the treatment, how do you know if the treatment is doing anything?

>Last year I fogged pretty irregularly and never counted the drop.

Whether you only fog or use the cords if you're only using FGMO you have to be regular. The process depends on it. You're using an inert chemcical to suffocate and stimulate grooming. If you don't do this regularly FGMO just won't work.

>Maybe my documented numbers are normal given the bee population. I guess I will use the OA in the morning. Is it possible to use OA too much?

I'm sure it is. One treatment will knock down virtually all the mites that are not in the cells. Wait a nine days and do it again and you'll get a lot of those after they come out. 

>If I treated with FGMO on a daily basis and got a baseline and then treated daily with OA to see the effectiveness would that be too stressful (I realize that any change in the status quo is stressful for the bees)? 

I can't say for sure, but IMO both would be too stressful. But the Oxalic is a very caustic chemcial. If you use it daily I'll bet you eventually dissolve the exoskeloton on the bees. After all, it is supposed to work by dissolving the mouth parts of the mites. The mites mouth parts are made of the same basic stuff as the bees exoskeleton.

>The entire course of treatments lastling a week to 10 days. I only learned of OA use in March and I don;t know if you can over use it. I don't feel that treating with FGMO everyday would be THAT bad for a colony. 

Certainly the FGMO would be less stressful. It's just the heat and all everyday seems like a lot more stress then every week or every other week. When I did FGMO fog I did it every other week until the fall and then every week.

>I should also mention that I've never done a 24hr drop test on an untreated colony, but I see now how that is important when judging infestation levels.

You really want to know several things. First, what is the current infestation level. I would measure that with a sugar roll AND an untreated drop count. Probably several 24 hour counts averaged out. A hot day will have a bigger drop than a cool day. So environmental factors, in addition to infestation rates, affect the drop counts.

Second, you want to know what percent INCREASE there was in the drop and what percent DECREASE there was with the sugar roll AFTER the treatment. In other words how many MORE mites dropped because of the treatment.

Personally I like FGMO and I like Oxalic Acid for what I think each are good for. I think FGMO is good for an ongoing system that doesn't require caustic chemicals but does require regular treatment.

Oxalic Acid is good for a quick knock down of the mites. I don't care for the caustic nature of it, but it is much better, IMO, than Check mite or Apistan.

I think comparing the two is apples and oranges.


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## John D. Smith (Mar 17, 2003)

I agree that the two treatments are quite different in functionality, however it is a valid comparison given the context of my focus. Additionally, the "research" I'm doing is for a general "methods to control varroa" project. The common thread is the effectiveness of the treatment. Does the treatment do anything? In other words, I'm interested in the treatment process, application, benefits, and drawbacks with a concentration on non chemical controls. I'm also comparing Apistan and Check-Mite to FGMO and OA as these four seem to be the most common treatment methods. Originally I planned to treat with FGMO on my two hives to establish a basline in each. Then, following the same treatment schedule, I would use OA in one hive and continue to do so. When graphed, I expected to see a more or less linear progression in the FGMO hive and a bell-shaped curve in the OA hive. This basically what you have confirmed in your posts. Ulitmately I wanted to show that there is a tool for management (FGMO) and an alternative to chemicals (OA) when mite populations increase.

I became concerned when, under the same conditions, my mite drop almost tripled in two weeks. I'm leaning toward the hope that my two 60+ drops in consecutive days is due to spring build up of bee populations. I'm now in the process of monitoring the 24 hr drop without treatment.

As a side question, do the mites molt? I collect and save each mite that my monitoring board collects and I've noticed that some "mites" appear to be just the shell of the mite with no legs or body. The shell is also much lighter and translucent. 

Thanks


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think that "shell" is just the immature mites that die and then dry out when the bees chew out an infested cell, or the bee emerges before all the mites are mature. Well, they ALWAYS emerge before all the mites are mature, because the female that infested the cell keeps laying until emergence.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

When finding light mites or shell that mean you have a very high mite infection in your colonies. Under normal conditions bees cleaning the cell after the young bee hatchet and bring the refuse outside. Light mites on your sticky board means the bees cant clean them all and some dropped to the bottom.

See the lifecycle of the Varroa and you know and understand why there mites with different colors.

There are ONLY female mites outside the cells. When a female Varroa entered the cell to multiply she is already pregnant. From first egg she is laying hatched always a male mite, than she lays one egg every 30 hours and theyre all female mites. That mean she produces many offsprings and the male starts to impregnate this offsprings. When the bee / drone hatched there up to 7 new mites in the cell but only 1 (bee cell) or sometimes 2 young mites (most drone cells) full developed and ready to breed again. All other female mites (they have most light shells) and the male are dying and you will find them often on your sticky board when bees cleaning the cells. 
Finding several dark Varroa mites in one closed cell that tells you the cell was infected with more than one adult female and they all raised there offsprings in one cell. The result is a dead or crippled bee in those cells.

A female Varroa can life up to 6 month and produce several times. 

Herbert


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## John D. Smith (Mar 17, 2003)

My non-treated 24hr drop produced 42 mites. That seems high to me so I'll use OA this evening. Based on my earlier drop rates the FGMO killed 60% more mites in 24 hrs. That's pretty good. My untreated drop rate may be a little high since it followed two consecutive days of FGMO fog. The effectiveness may be higher than 60% better. What's the norm?

Thanks


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>My non-treated 24hr drop produced 42 mites. That seems high to me 

ABJ, May 2004, page 389, article by Georgina Kemp;

Varroa infestation categories (daily count)

Category 1: 0 - 20 mites: very low infested hive
Category 2: 20 - 40 mites: low infested hive
Category 3: 40 - 150 mites: medium infested hive
Category 4: 150 + mites: high infested hive

I get concerned at twenty and act, but in actuality you could wait to act at sixty by what I have been told in seminars at the bee meetings.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

There is a big different between spring and fall. 

42 mites / 24 hour in spring is extremely high because 95% of the Varroa (and more) breeding in cells.
42 mites / 24 hour in fall-winter is not to bad because colonies have less or no brood.


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## John D. Smith (Mar 17, 2003)

There are a few factors that I think may have influenced my drop rates. Early April produced around 25. Two weeks later I got 60+ and the following 24 hrs produced 60+ more. The next 24 hrs, without treatment got the 40+. The two days of fog may have increased my nontreatment drop. I'm not sure why the drop rate almost tripled in 2 weeks. I had a lot of brood even in early April. Regardless, yesterday I used the OA evaporator. I'll see this evening how it worked. I'll use it weekly until the drop rates level off at an acceptable rate. I understand that OA can be used when supers are on. Is that right?


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

>>>I understand that OA can be used when supers are on. Is that right?<<<

Oxalic Acid is a natural ingredient in Honey (very small amount) but I never treated my colonies with supers on.

Kemper you can bring all closed brood with bees in a separate super outside the original hive and let the queen start lay on empty combs. All worker bees flying back to the queen, only the young bees will stay with the brood. 
They start building queen cells but you should cut all out and treat the brood with OA 3 times 5-7 days apart and you will kill ALL Varroa. Treat also 1 or 2 times the hive with the queen (depends on your Vaporizer) and the colony will be Varroa free. 
After 21 days (when all brood is hatched) put the super with the young bees back to the queen and a honey super between both so you will have your colony back together mite free and strong for the honey harvest.


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## John D. Smith (Mar 17, 2003)

Sehr gut. Danke für die hilfe!


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## John D. Smith (Mar 17, 2003)

I used my OA evaporator and only got 50 mites after 24 hrs. I guess that's good, but I was expecting more since I got 60+ with FGMO. Maybe that thinned the mite population so much that the OA only had to get the remainder. I hope I did it correctly. I followed the steps given online. I'll wait the 9 days and try OA again and see what happens.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Sounds like it wasn't as bad as you thought. You needed a sugar roll or an UNTREATED drop count to have any kind of baseline to measure the effectiveness.


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## F W (May 13, 2004)

I have a question to Axtmann.I read that is better to vaporise OA from the top. I found these in a page where it is explain how to do a "hand made" vaporiser. Thanks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I have a question to Axtmann.I read that is better to vaporise OA from the top. I found these in a page where it is explain how to do a "hand made" vaporiser. Thanks. 

While I think it's true that the vapor rises, if you do it from the top you can tell if you filled the hive by it coming out the bottom. I think the important thing is to fill the hive with the vapor, from either end.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

FW
For a few years I vaporized my hives from top, but since I talked to a Swiss bee scientist I bought an electric Vaporizer and go from the bottom. 
He told me vaporized OA from an electric one is like fine mist, the vapor crystals this one produce are only a fraction from the crystals with the propane heated Vaporizer. Thats why the efficient is more than 50% higher. I dont know if this is true but they tested all kind of different Vaporizer in Switzerland.
The fine vapor also goes even in all directions and fills the hive totally in approx 1 minute.

When vaporizing form the top the vapor comes out at the bottom very quick because of the bees. They try to blow the stuff out as soon as you start to bring it in.


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## F W (May 13, 2004)

Thanks Michael and Axtmann for the answers.
I have follow the FGMO forum for a year. I know you from there. Michael always give good tips and answers. Axtmann was more "agressive" but now I think he was right. I own more than 200 hives and lost these year at least 30 to heavy varroa infection. I treat with FGMO vaporiser ALL weeks since spring. (September on these side) In december the varroa level was to high on some colonies. I treat with FGMO until now but with no good results. I do not mean that it did not work but it did not work for me.
Now I'm working with OA. I don't have the "varrox" yet. (propane vaporiser from top)
I have to take some samples to see if have trachel mites. I understand that FGMO can kill them.
Michael do you have some direccion or contact that could export Varrox? I contact the (fabricante) (maker). They give me a direction from here in Chile but I have no answer from them yet. Thanks


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael do you have some direccion or contact that could export Varrox? I contact the (fabricante) (maker). They give me a direction from here in Chile but I have no answer from them yet.

I have never dealt with them. They are in Canada, I believe, or at least the supplier (maybe not the maker) is.

I just made the vaporized on Topbarguy's web site (the one for the top) and used it. I prefer the top one, simply because it's hard on my back to try to hold a torch to the vaporizer on the bottom and I can't move out of the way as quickly if the wind shifts.









You can always make one.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

FW
You can order the Varrox from Switzerland or the JB200 electric from Kanada. I got my Vaporizer from Kanada for less then the half price from the Varrox plus free delivery.
If there is no distributor in your country I think you can order direct from the manufacturer.


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