# Feral hives



## sampa (Mar 14, 2005)

Did feral hives die out from the mites like the "kept" hives did? Aren't they naturally small-cell?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Some of them died. Some did not. Many of us have been seeking out the survivors.

There are two issues that I see in feral hives dying. The first is the regression issue. A hive that swarmed from a large cell hive will only build an in between size (about 5.1mm average worker cell), not small cell (4.9mm or smaller). It's another swarm from that hive that will do that.

Second there is the issue of domestic hives crashing with large numbers of mites and robbers from the feral bees brining them back. Having a stable population of mites as far as them breeding is one thing (due to the shorter pre and post capping times) but bringing in thousdands from outside may overwelm even a stable system.

Still I'm finding ferals. Before the mites most of them were the dark leather colored ones. Now I'm seeing more of the black ones.

The issue of crashing hives around you is why I would STILL monitor mite levels even on small cell. You don't know what's happening in a hive if you don't bother to monitor it. Besides it's reassuring to know and not be assuming.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Did feral hives die out from the mites like the "kept" hives did? Aren't they naturally small-cell? 

To your first question, yes, most did. 

To your second question, yes, many were.

But there were many factors at play contributing to the varroa colony crashes of the 90s, too many to name. IMO, it wasnt as simple as the small cell survived. Just to name a few factors,,, 
Many of the so called ferals that succumbed were actually escaped domestics that were drawing larger cells. Some small cell colonies may have been influenced to the large side by breeding with domestics and succumbed. Many large and small cell colonies no doubt succumbed due to an overwhelming influx of absconding varroa infested bees from other colonies. The robbing out of weakened varroa infested colonies transferring high mite loads may have been a factor creating varroa pressure that no colony, large or small cell can withstand. The practice of buying bees not acclimated to your climate no doubt had a huge influence with genetics, causing weakened bees that would have otherwise survived varroa to succumb to winter stresses. The use of drone colonies creating an unnatural balance in drone genetics played a part in poor selection. Many, many examples,,, Etc,,,, 

My experience is that I am finding ferals that are surviving varroa, and they all tend to have a nest structure that is massive in size, and in very good health. This leads me to believe that the size of the colony or configuration may play a part also. I dont want to get into a guessing game of percentages that used to exist, but no doubt many small cell ferals succumbed. But I do I believe that the long surviving ferals I am finding now are the best of the best,,, of the true small cell ferals, the rest of the small cell colonies having succumbed due to influences at play, be it any of the factors I mentioned, nest structure, or other such contributing to varroa pressure.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

This maybe a dumb question but I'll ask it anyway. How would the lack of either commerially kept or feral colonies in an area affect the mite population, either trachal or verona. Without a host, would this parisite die off naturaly? Or would they adapt to a new host, which seems very unlikely? Thanks.

peggjam


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

During the process of a hive crashing when it's still alive but weak, it gets robbed. The robbers pick up many mites because the hive is crashing from mites. When the feral hive is the robber, it hauls a lot of mites back to the hive. Many more than are reproducing in the hive.

Once all the bees at the crashing hive are dead, so are the mites.


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## jaydee (Oct 12, 2004)

Michael, I was talking with a local bee man with about 120 hives, He said here in North La. All the feral black bees are gone. The one I have caught are not black although some are dark. There is one feral hive that I know has been in a Hollow tree for about 25 year that I know of and this is the one I would like to get swarms off of.They are so high I do not know what variety they are. The swarm I caught in a trap this year was within 250 yard of this tree and they are regular colored bees. I hope they are from this tree.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If they are surviving, I'd consider that more important than the color. Besides in the South you'll probably see more yellow bees surviving.

I'd set more traps. 250 yars from that tree is a good spot to try to do that.


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## YBCute (Oct 18, 2004)

I was called to an old farm for old equipment removal. It was unkept for 7+ years. It wasn't just an old farm. It had been a beekeepers retreat I think. Everything was rotted old wood. Nothing left BUT a old hive. Up against the house with a 8" hole ripped in the side from animals. Wax moths plugged up the huge holes and bees glued it in place. Glued the whole darn box together. But, But it had bees inside!!! They son said they had been there for over 7 years now and said "GET THEM OUT " Land was sold. So, they ALL didn't die out and they do seem smaller but with 7 year old self made comb they made what they wanted.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Wax moth casings make me think it probably has been repopulated by swarms as opposed to truly feral since wax moths rarely get a foot hold in established hives. If they are truly feral and have been there for 7 years I'd be checking them for mites and other resistance and carefully breeding with the best other stock you have. Let us know what you find! What color are they?


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## jaydee (Oct 12, 2004)

If the swarm is a true feral hive, Will it be naturally small cell? I measured the swarm i trapped, it was a shade less than 5.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Yes, a true feral hive will naturally be on small cell. There are always a variety of cell sizes in a feral hive, but the center of the brood nest should have a lot of comb 4.9mm or less. Also the bees are noticably smaller. According to Baudoux a bee rasied on 4.7mm (which I see a lot of in natural comb) is 3mm shorter than a bee raised on 5.5mm comb. 3mm is a lot of bee.


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## jaydee (Oct 12, 2004)

I will check the brood nest next time I open the hive. My measurements were from close to the edge of the frame. I checked my swarm boxes again yesterday and had caught another swarm in the same location as I caught this one in, a few weeks ago. Seems to be a smaller swarm. I hope it is small cell also.


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