# Cross comb madness



## sveebeek (Jun 14, 2016)

First time TBH beek. I've had nothing but problems with cross comb ever since installing my package on 5/16 & I'm almost at my wits end. They have 4-5 bars completely cross combed at this point, even after doing several manipulations in which a lot of comb was destroyed. I tried getting them back on track by placing a bare bar between the bulk to the cross comb mess and a frame that (was) looking good, but when I checked them yesterday, a week later, they had already cross combed and it has eggs. I don't know what to do! I check on them weekly, the hive is level...they won't stop! I feel like I should just call it a loss & let nature take its course. After this experience, I don't know if I'd ever give TB another shot.


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

Cut it all out. Make some top bars with non wired brood comb, wax it in if you have wax. If not just wood glue or hot glue would be fine. Shake them all off that brood comb and let them start from scratch. Yeah they will be behind but better then dealing with that mess. Instead check every 3 days. I know not always possible but make the time.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

what is the width of your topbars and do you have some type of comb guides? How much space in the hive have you given the bees?


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## sveebeek (Jun 14, 2016)

The bars are 30 1-3/8" x 15 ½". I think I gave them 9 or 10 bars to start. I was advised not to use guides, but my bars are waxed.


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

IMHO if not using comb guides of sometime you will be fighting this everyday. You better be in your hive daily for the first 3 weeks struggling comb. The bees naturally wanna be crooked ha. i cant think of many negatives of comb guides. They don't affect the honey, the comb, or anything of that nature in my opinion. I do cut and crush for honey and also do cut comb honey from my hive and have comb guided on every single bar, on every single hive.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

sveebeek said:


> The bars are 30 1-3/8" x 15 ½". I think I gave them 9 or 10 bars to start. I was advised not to use guides, but my bars are waxed.


I can't imagine not having some sort of guide - even if just a bead of raised wax (from your description I'm guessing the bars have an even coat of wax?

Also have you tried cutting any straight sections of comb with a serrated knife and attaching onto the bars into the way you want them to go?


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## sveebeek (Jun 14, 2016)

I was advised that if the bars were waxed that that would act as the guide. Is it worth getting guides, ditching what they've built so far, and starting over (hoping that that is the fix?)


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

Guides can be made with anything. Don't go spend a lot of money. Popsicle sticks, tongue depressors if wife or friend work at a doctors office, pieces of unwired foundation, but in my opinion to fix them especially if they are this far off I would use a larger comb guide like the large Popsicle sticks or foundation I would want it and inch or so sticking off the top bar


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

Save what comb you can, but a real comb guide is key! I use a triangle wedge that runs almost the whole inside width of the hives. Though there are just some bees that will not draw out straight comb to save their lives! I am trying two really big TBHs this year. 23 inch long bars. One hive is drawing them out beautifully, the other hive is making them curve at the ends plus they are wavy in the vertical direction, from the top to bottom of the hive! I had to put the follower board back in and only give them one empty bar between the last comb and the follower board! Though, I am about to just leave them be till next spring, when the comb is stronger, and fix what I can and melt down the rest. The bees do not care if you can inspect or not! LOL
Any sections of straight comb that you cut out can be reattached with hair clips or hardware cloth, or even card board or tape slings, though I have personally only used the hair clips


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I prefer straight comb guides for my TBHs as I find it easier to reattach comb to them vs. the triangle. But would definitely recommend something (and not a piece of waxed string). You should be able to zip a channel in your existing bars and attach the comb guide with an air gun pretty easily. Then you have a means to re-attach the wonky comb, which I would recommend cutting off the existing bars and using a sling to reattach to bars with comb guides. I use masking tape but there are lots of other ways to attach. Just find what works for you.


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

Scott,
You are a genius hahaha


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

Thanks Ethan, but not really. I learned that and many other things from the people before me. I like to pay attention! LOL

It is amazing what you can learn on BeeSource if you keep your mouth shut and listen!


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

Notes taken!!


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

No comb guides?!?! 
I've had nothing but great combs built. Made my own bars. Cut a center groove on a table saw and used popsicle sticks glued in with titebond 3 for the comb guides. I eat a lot of popsicles to keep hydrated and cool down. Beekeeping is hot sweaty work. Wife keeps me stocked up with popsicles. Save them sticks.
Stings are good for you too so don't be afraid to get stung now and then. Just not in the throat or face. That is the worst imo.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

First year beek here and one my hives is a simple top bar hive. Michael Bush talks about atleast 1/4 inch guide. I purchased 3/4 pine boards at big box, set the table saw at 22 degrees(?) and slide triangular cross section pieces, and I have zero skills when it comes to wood working. Once you get hang of couple, you will get it. Then simply nail them to the bars. 

A swarm that I put into that TBH is building nice straight comb so far, following that guide. Once two bars with guide are built, easy to slide a bar with no guide between them and get straight comb. so far so good.

Bees seem to hang from the top holding each other. Wherever they can hang onto the top is where they seem to start building. Comb guide provides that point through length of bar helping them building comb straight down. Oh, and level the hive.


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

Daisy, 
The bees hanging in a chain is called festooning. It is how the bees measure as they build comb. I love seeing that! It is amazing.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I was advised not to use guides, but my bars are waxed.

You got very bad advice. You need a guide.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#combguide
http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm#guide

You probably hung the queen cage between bars as well... all destined to fail. There is a lot of bad advice out there.


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

^^^ read the entire website about 10 times hahahaha. Free information. It's great for new, broke beekeepers


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

sveebeek said:


> First time TBH beek. I've had nothing but problems with cross comb ever since installing my package on 5/16 & I'm almost at my wits end. They have 4-5 bars completely cross combed at this point, even after doing several manipulations in which a lot of comb was destroyed. I tried getting them back on track by placing a bare bar between the bulk to the cross comb mess and a frame that (was) looking good, but when I checked them yesterday, a week later, they had already cross combed and it has eggs. I don't know what to do! I check on them weekly, the hive is level...they won't stop! I feel like I should just call it a loss & let nature take its course. After this experience, I don't know if I'd ever give TB another shot.


A similar thing happened to me my first year. It took me a couple of years to work all the cross combing to the back of the hive, get the queen to stop laying in it, and then cut it out, but I did it, so don't despair! You need to stop the cross combing by either placing one end of it against one end of the hive, or use a follower board, and place straight comb on the other end. All bars should have a good guide, as the others have said. I use chamfer molding to make a wedge. If you don't have a single good comb to place at one end, you can make a sling from a couple strips of cardboard and staple them on either side of the bar. I've used this technique successfully numerous times. It's fast and easy. The bees will attach the comb and remove the cardboard themselves.


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## bibbster (Jun 10, 2016)

I went for simple. I used a 3/4" wide piece of foundation cut to 11" long.

I used my table saw to cut a groove down the length of the bars at about 1/8" to 3/16" deep.

I then put the foundation in the slot 3" from one end (which centers it on the bar) and used six small balls of wax to attach the foundation to the bar. I don't have a good picture of this, but basically you sandwich the foundation between two balls of wax in three places, about an inch from each end and then in the center.

I've not had any foundation come loose and I am in a pretty hot and humid area. It's been in the 90's for a bit now and all is well. Leaving the three inches at each end without starter strip allows the bees to attach the ends of the comb themselves. In my mind it is more secure than running the strip all the way to the ends.

Granted we've only been doing this since April, but our first hive, a swarm, is really doing great and all the comb is straight, and that's after they were trapped in a Langstroth trap and have four bars of cross comb. Speaking of cross comb, I'd take out all the cross comb and put it in the bottom of the hive and let them clean it out. That's what I did and it seemed to work just fine. After about a week I removed it and by that time they had already built out 3 bars with new straight comb.

Here are some pics for reference for the above yapping that I did.


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## sveebeek (Jun 14, 2016)

Thanks to everyone for the feedback, I very much appreciate it! Clearly I was given some terrible advice, but I'm going to try to get things back on track by adding foundation to some bare bars. Once they've gotten a few going (hopefully), then I'll work on the cross mess. These are the bars I have, any suggestion how to secure the foundation securely? **the ridge in the middle does not have slots, it is solid**


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## Atmichaels (Jul 14, 2015)

I have the exact same bars and also had really bad cross combing. I wound up attaching strips of foundation by coating one side of the guide with melted wax using a paintbrush, pressing the foundation to it and then sealing both sides with another bead of melted wax. This was just a couple of weeks ago and my girls are drawing perfect comb now. Not my idea, I followed Magnum's instructions in his book. 

I used a hot pizza wheel to cut the strips of foundation. Made them 10 inches long and used one of the bars as a guide so the strips are 1 3/8 wide. Make sure the melted wax isn't too hot or you'll melt the foundation. 

Good luck to you!


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

Nothing wrong with the foundation as a comb guide. The pain in the but comes in when you have to replace it. You have to clean out the groove to put the new piece of foundation in. When you harvest honey it is a little better, you have to do a little creative cutting and leave enough comb to leave a decent comb guide.


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## bibbster (Jun 10, 2016)

sveebeek said:


> These are the bars I have, any suggestion how to secure the foundation securely? **the ridge in the middle does not have slots, it is solid**
> 
> View attachment 25831


If it were me, I'd remove the ridge and then just cut a slot for foundation. How is the ridge attached? Nails? Glue? Both?


Do you have access to a table saw? It may be easier, for now, to just make new bars. Buy 2x lumber and cut your bars from that as it is much cheaper than buying 1x lumber. Cut the 2x lumber in the lengths that you want your bars, either on the table saw, miter saw, by hand saw, or have Lowe's cut them to length for you. Run the 2x lumber through the table saw and make it the WIDTH that you want your bars (mine are 1 1/4"). Then, run the slab back through the saw to cut the bars to the thickness that you want them.

As far as removing the old foundation, don't use hot wax to seal the foundation to the top bar. Once you scrape the comb off of the bar all the way down to the surface, the last little bit of foundation should come out easily. For any stubborn foundation, just use a large screwdriver with a thick 'blade' and keep it 90 degrees to the top bar and pull it toward you. Either clamp the bar to the tabletop or use your gut, hip, etc. to support it. It sounds more complicated than it is.

I use a utility knife to cut the foundation and the edge (thickness side) of the top bar as a guide. I think I mentioned that earlier though. I really need to take some pics or video.


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

http://m.homedepot.com/p/WeatherShield-1-in-x-2-in-x-8-ft-Pressure-Treated-Board-315412/100024161

You can get these at Home Depot non treated for .82 cents a piece they say 2in but they are actually about 1 3/8 perfect width ha... Then if you don't have a saw. But some cheap champfer molding. Sorry I can't spell but you get the picture. Super cheap way to do it. Just need a saw. I even used a hand saw for awhile. That is best thing about TBH. Cheap and easy. I love it


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

Also, if you wanna use grooves and foundation just take your bars and tack the down with a small nail and use a hand saw to run the groove down the Bar. Glue in foundation or wax. Probably both haha you can do everything with hand powered tools. Takes some time but it's possible


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

Be willing to make good guides on your initial bars because you don't need them on all your bars. I only put them on maybe 8 when I start a hive. After that, all new empty bars go between straight comb, no guide needed. But I limit the space with a follower board. If you don't do that, you will need guides on all bars. I've not had a single cross comb using chamfer molding nailed onto a bar. It's very easy to do and, depending on how long your bars are, you can get 6-8 wedges from a single 8' piece.


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## bibbster (Jun 10, 2016)

ethanhogan said:


> http://m.homedepot.com/p/WeatherShield-1-in-x-2-in-x-8-ft-Pressure-Treated-Board-315412/100024161
> 
> You can get these at Home Depot non treated for .82 cents a piece they say 2in but they are actually about 1 3/8 perfect width ha... Then if you don't have a saw. But some cheap champfer molding. Sorry I can't spell but you get the picture. Super cheap way to do it. Just need a saw. I even used a hand saw for awhile. That is best thing about TBH. Cheap and easy. I love it


You should not use treated lumber inside of a hive, especially in areas that touch the comb, due to the chemicals used in the pressure treating process.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

bibbster said:


> You should not use treated lumber inside of a hive, especially in areas that touch the comb, due to the chemicals used in the pressure treating process.


They said NON treated


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

If you read the statement slowly it says get the UN TREATED! It is there for example. They do not show the Un treated ones on the web page that are only .82 cents.


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

Thank you tigger.


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## bibbster (Jun 10, 2016)

Yep, I read that, but for folks that don't read and just click the link and assume that is what they should buy...thus my comment.

Here are the non treated options at Home Depot: (just be wary of warping, bowing, and twisting)

http://www.homedepot.com/p/1-in-x-2...uce-Furring-Strip-Board-HDSP3010208/205602402

http://www.homedepot.com/p/1-in-x-2...1-5-in-x-96-in-1x2x8FT-common-board/205908447

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Builder-...t-Kiln-Dried-Cedar-Board-C-BP102K08/206460933


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## bibbster (Jun 10, 2016)

And Lowe's:

http://www.lowes.com/pd/Spruce-Pine...-Actual-0-75-in-x-1-5-in-x-7-87-ft/1000039599

http://www.lowes.com/pd/Whitewood-B...-ft-Actual-0-75-in-x-1-5-in-x-8-ft/1000054549


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

Thank you bibbster! Haha that is less confusing to post the right links. I honestly just stink with computers and I'm on my phone at work. But yes those are some great options you listed!


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## bibbster (Jun 10, 2016)

Happy to help!

If you have access to a table saw and need to make many top bars, buying 2x4's, 2x6's, etc. is the way to go. Much cheaper in the long run. Still be mindful of warping, cupping, bowing, etc. otherwise you'll end up with gaps between your bars. Obviously with more tools you can correct this, but most of us are on a budget and don't have a workshop at our disposal.


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

I'm bee poor as I call it lol


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## bibbster (Jun 10, 2016)

Yeah, I know the feeling. I've had to decrease my hobby list due to lack of fundages. Now it's honey bees and my classic Mustang (which needs a new radiator). lol


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## djjmc (Feb 6, 2015)

delete post. duplicate


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## bibbster (Jun 10, 2016)

djjmc said:


> Pressure treated wood is not ideal inside the hive imho.


Yeah, we covered that earlier...thanks to me. lol


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