# Feeding Indoor Hives



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

For you beekeepers who keep bees inside, what do you use to feed your nucs this time of year. 
I am thinking my nucs went in light this year. I hefted a few that were on top of the stack, and they seem light to me. Im thinking of feeding them starting March. 
I have seen those white entrance feeders to screw a bottle on to, but they are charging 50 cent for them!

Ideas ?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I don't keep bees inside during the winter. I am however curious about keeping bees inside over the winter.

How large a building?
How warm are you keeping it?
How many NUCs do you have inside?
Do you keep it completely dark?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Any kind of entrance feeder isn't going to work unless the temperature is over 50 degrees. If you are keeping bees indoors I'm sure your temperature is way below that, at least it should be. John


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

We keep the shed at 5 degrees C. We can see the cluster from the entrance.

BMAC, I keep my hives in a 30*40 insulated Quonset shed. This year I packed 1050 hive inside which includes 200 of my nucs. Its tight!
The secret is to keep the shed dark and keep the air moving inside. I have thermostats which relay to exhausting fans to help keep my temperatures down. 

If your interested , I took a quick video a couple of months back,
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a0_JjRSOnU
I have the shed rigged up with red lights so I can work inside without having the shed come alive !


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

great video. Thanks. Do you ever have to worry about too much co2 in the hut or does the fans do a fine job when regulating the temps?

Also do you ever have to warm them or does that many bees packed in there so well take care of that for you?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I have my ventilation fan set on a minimum to take care of the moisture and CO2 concerns. 
We had a month of -30 lately, and during that time my fans were at the minimum, but the hives kept the shed above 0 degrees C at all times. During the day, the temp held at 4 degrees without any supplemental heating. 

Indoor wintering has its problems, but I will tell you, it felt good knowing my hives were sitting inside a nice warm shed as the wind howled for weeks riding a -45 degree windchill !


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

What is problematic about wintering indoors?


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

So Ian, are they locked up in the shed for a full 3-4-5 months in the shed?? Any issues with nosema??


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Cool video!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BMAC said:


> What is problematic about wintering indoors?


As spring nears they get a bit restless, it get busy here moving hives out as the nice weather falls on us. I will work 2 or 3 nights straight moving hives into spring yards


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Brandy said:


> So Ian, are they locked up in the shed for a full 3-4-5 months in the shed?? Any issues with nosema??


Yes, from November 1st to April 1st , typically 

Nosema is a concern but its managed according to the severity. 
Mites are more of a concern. It seems the bees dont winter well with viral loads of any kind. But that goes with outdoor wintering aswell


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Ian sorry for high jacking your thread here, but it is very educational. 

How thick of insulation do you use?


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Ian I feed my nucs either fondant or similar type of sugar/food patties in the winter. Stay away from syrup now it = danger in the winter/early spring before it starts to warm up.

What do you use to control the nosema?

I have been trying different essential oils and some thymol in my patties but just have started so I don't know the results yet. Seems like I get hammered with nosema/dysentery type conditions later in the winter b/c we have such a wet damp rainy/snowy winter with variable temps all over the place= Lots of moisture!


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

A lot of guys used to feed during winter with entrance feeders (boardmans) and jar after the border closed and they had to start wintering bees. If I recall correctly, they raised the wintering room temperature to about 7C.

A couple of years ago some of the beekeepers around here were a bit light around this time of the year as well. So of their bees were staved at that point. They used plastic 1 litre honey containers, punched several holes into one side near the top rim, filled the container with 2:1 syrup, put on the lid and flipped the container upside down and placed it on the entrance lid with the holes facing the entrance. The container was supported on so type of wire support. I'll try to get some more information about the wire support for you if you would like - may take several days.

Saved the bees nicely. They thought the bees came out of winter having more brood that normal and the hives actually had a head start.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Thanks Allen, that sounds like it will work. I dont want to spend alot of money on making or buying feeders. Never thought of that idea!
any or more information on it would be usefull 

Cheers!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Mtn. Bee, you have to realize the hives are stacked 5 pallets high. My only access to the bee cluster is through the entrance.

The idea that winter feeding is harmful is very exaggerated. The main concern is increased moisture perspiration within the hive, causing condensation. If the hive has the ability to expel that moisture, they should be fine. 
Within the wintering shed I can manage moisture expulsion very well during the winter months.

I monitor my hives closely for nosema, and when I find levels that reach our threshold levels, I will use Fumagillin . 

ya, it seems that nosema is associated with foul weather.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BMAC said:


> Ian sorry for high jacking your thread here, but it is very educational.
> 
> How thick of insulation do you use?


Hey BMAC, I love high jacked threads, its were you get the good stuff !

My shed walls are 4 inches full of fiberglass insulation . Not much, but enough to keep the shed from chilling


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Ian, were you crying for 50 cents per nuc? I mean, come on. One nuc in your area will produce 150 pounds and 200 is not really unrealistic. At $1.85 or so today, one hive can pay for all those feeders. My point being I think you can afford them. More importantly you cannot afford to loose the nucs. I have heard of guys feeding in sheds at this time of the year. They turn the heat up a bit and fill the frame feeders. They bring the stacks of bees from one part of the building unstack and feed, restack and move on to the next stack. In my experience feeding in cool and damp weather is so risky. It takes the bees a lot of energy and life force to process the syrup and cure it to the right moisture content. The only way I think it works over on the Prairies is the vey low relative humidity of the air. That low moisture probably helps the bees evaporate the moisture without taking all their vitality. Around here the air is very damp making it very difficult for the bees to lower moisture. It is a very good way to damage your hives here.

That being said if it were my bees and if I had 400 frames of honey I would shake the bees of some combs and give them 2 frames of honey each.
You could also get one of those racket making machines that recirculate the syrup and have a manifold that sprays the syrup in the comb. You could do that first then give 2 frames of freshly sprayed syrup per nuc. Either way good luck.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

no no Jean-Marc, I dont have the luxury of re stacking. Not enough space.
with all due respect Jean-Marc, its my business to cry over 50 cents, not yours. Just looking for other methods and ideas
appreciate your feedback though, 
cheers!


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Ian said:


> Mtn. Bee, you have to realize the hives are stacked 5 pallets high. My only access to the bee cluster is through the entrance.


I was thinking about my top entrances that I use on my migratory covers which have a rim with a cut out (exactly like a bottom entrance on a 4-way pallet but on the top cover instead). All I have to do is walk from pallet to pallet and slide patties thru the top entrances and they sit on top of the frames right next to the cluster even with my pallets stacked up. The bottom of my 4-way pallets have a rim that goes completely around so they are shut tight, but I do drill a 1-1/4" screened over hole thru the plywood for drainage and air flow. 
I guess I am just a backwards beekeeper!  
Good Luck with those nucs hope 100% make it thru for you! Mtn Bee


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

hey thats a cool idea, thanks for that!
backwards beekeeper? that last post was progressive !


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

How heavy are the singles in the video when you put them in the building?
I wouldn't spend a lot of time in the building even with the red lights. They still like to fly and crawl at 40 F and they don't usually make it back to the hive.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ya Nick, I only have the lights on when sweeping he floor or checking my fans. Even the red lights disturb them enough to get the odd straggler wandering out. Nothing like white lights though. 

For the most part the singles went in between 75-90 lbs.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Your Welcome! Dreamed it up after lots of trial and error or should I say mostly error! ha ha 
Now I am kicking around the idea of a slide in screen in that top entrance by cutting a groove in the top cleat kinda like a sliding window in your house. This is for moving my bees as I like to screen and net the load unless it is a short move then it is screen and load and go. Currently I just staple stout alum expanded mesh over the entrances using a slap stapler but by the time I get one stapled the bees on the rest of the pallet are boiling out b/c they feel the stapler hitting the other boxes and they know the routine even at night. So I figure if I can just walk around and slide the screened windows (entrances) shut it will save a lot of time and I will not leave hardly any bees behind when moving them! Mtn Bee


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Id love pictures of that, but cant take a picture of your thoughts, right?!

I think it incredibly interesting hearing other beekeepers "ways" or "doodads" they have come up with to make this work easier.

Dont even get me started on the project I initiated this winter to help pull honey!


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

We have dumped granulated sugar (dryvert would be better) in them in the shed. I think we did more harm (disruption) than good.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Ian I will send you some pics once I have the prototype built and you can let me know what you think. Always great to hear input from other beeks and get there 2 cents for something that might have been staring me in the face but was overlooked or in other words "Beek Tunnel Vision".


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

what made you make the decision to dump dry sugar on the hives while inside? and how exactly did you do that? Must of moved them and opened them up? Ya, I would think that would add alot of stress on them


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Ian said:


> I think it incredibly interesting hearing other beekeepers "ways" or "doodads" they have come up with to make this work easier.


I think this would make an very interesting thread (ie. Ways and Doodads of other beekeepers, let's hear them)!!!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Mtn. Bee said:


> Ian I will send you some pics once I have the prototype built and you can let me know what you think. Always great to hear input from other beeks and get there 2 cents for something that might have been staring me in the face but was overlooked or in other words "Beek Tunnel Vision".


I will warn you, I can be blunt at times,.. but I would like that


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Nick, interesting your experience is 40 F as to when difficulties arise in the wintering shed. I very comfortable with temperature up to about 50 F and not too concerned if temperatures reach mid 50's F in spring for a couple of hours. If I want to work in the wintering shed, I normally drop the temperature down to 35 F or so.

Ian, I will try to post some pictures next week showing the wire supports the beekeepers that fed with the tubs used. The holes were very small. I think they made them with a small nail.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Ian, I'm curious as to survival rates. What are your survival rates now compared to your pre-shed days?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

ran a 7% loss last year


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Ian,
With the long 4-5 months and your bees not being able to go out on cleansing flights I was wondering if there is a defecation mess inside the hives come spring and if so are you doing anything to clean up the insides of the hives in March or do the bees take care of the cleanup?

With my winters here in Southeast Ohio the bees rarely go a month between cleansing flights, and they usually fly every 2-3 weeks so my original question is one of curiosity as to what the bees can endure in extreme conditions and what it is you all do to help them if needed......Thanks


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

no, there is no mess. On a few hives, that have issues with nosema or disentry the frount of the hives will be messed up, but usually the insides of the hives are fine. Any hive that messes up the frount usually doesnt make it.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Thanks for the insight Ian, that is pretty amazing that bees stay holed up that long without cleansing flights. You have quite a setup going, I wish you the best for this coming spring.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

WWW said:


> pretty amazing that bees stay holed up that long without cleansing flights


Amazes me too


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Mtn. Bee said:


> I think this would make an very interesting thread (ie. Ways and Doodads of other beekeepers, let's hear them)!!!


Hey Mtn. Bee, when are you going to start that thread !


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

WWW said:


> that is pretty amazing that bees stay holed up that long without cleansing flights.


dont want to be under those bees long after they get out of the shed.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Ian back on the idea of top entrance:

What about using a small fan to blow in the granulated sugar into the NUCs? I was thinking about that and I know mannlake or someone sells a sugar blower. I would think that would pack enough granulated sugar into each NUC to give them emergency feed. That of course is whether or not you have upper entrances. 

Maybe It could work the same with lower entrances.

Food for thought


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## Markt (Feb 8, 2012)

What if you built a 'funnel' out of aluminum? I'm thinking a piece of flat stock slightly narrower than your entrance and long enough to reach almost to the back. Then just pour dry sugar on it. Just a thought


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ideally dry sugar is placed just above and as near to the cluster as possible. Bees may take dry sugar on a bottom board well if the cluster is very low but there are also scenarios, oddly enough, where bees will begin to haul it out of the entrance like so much garbage.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

A local beek here told me to close off the lower entrance up to 90% to help alleviate them kicking out the sugar as trash. He told me they will finally get it and eat it.

I personally have never done this as I bring all my bees south for the winter. I suppose if I was inclined to keep them in NY I might consider putting my previous summer NUCs in an insulated building with fans.


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## Markt (Feb 8, 2012)

Certainly it would be better if you could get the lid off but since that isn't an option I guess you could try sugar on the bottom boards for a few and do more if it works? I've tried boardman feeders before and they're a ton of work... You'll probably pay more than 50 cents for a mason jar to put in that feeder plus no matter how careful you are the Jars will eventually turn green with mold which can't be good for the bees. Best of luck whatever way you go with


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Allen Martens said:


> Nick, interesting your experience is 40 F as to when difficulties arise in the wintering shed. I very comfortable with temperature up to about 50 F and not too concerned if temperatures reach mid 50's F in spring for a couple of hours. If I want to work in the wintering shed, I normally drop the temperature down to 35 F or so.
> 
> We try and hold our shed at 40 F. The problem is when the lights are on they want to leave the box. I don't want them out of the box until we haul them to California. I don't sweep or turn the main red lights on at all once they are in. I check the temp. every day and make sure the fans are working and leave them alone. This past winter was the easiest we have had it for controlling temps as it was colder outside.
> We are only in storage for about 60 days, so its not really the same program you guys have up north. How many pounds do you figure a good hive (8-10 frames bees) loses over a normal winter? Also do see much bee population losses?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ya the trick to wintering indoors is having consistent COLD weather outside to help regulate the indoor temp. Rairly would there be a chance for hives to fly throughout the entire winter period, if they sat outside, maybe once or twice throughout the entire wintering period. We have a consistent cold winter here in Manitoba,


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Hard to tell what the bee loss would be over the winter, Ill sweep up 5-6 barrels of bees from 1000 single hives through the winter. So I guess the bee loss would be something like 1/2 - 1 1/2 lbs of bees per hives.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I always wondered how beekeepers saw what they were doing inside the buildings where they kept the bees . 

If the bees are bothered by the red lights , if you could find night vision binoculars or a monoculars , that would be a neat way to avoid the lights ?? i don't know if that is stupid or not to suggest : )

I know i'm a little nutty : p

Ben

You have a nice setup Ian !


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I can work in the shed with red lighting and very will see very little disturbance from the hives. 
I made the mistake a while ago of wearing a head lamp, with white light. Not to long before I had a FACE FULL OF BEES !


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I'm sure that was a fun experience .


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Ian I made the mistake of wearing a headlamp under my veil when moving bees at night by hand once.  ...and I say ONCE! 
Did not have anyway to shut headlamp off as switch is on headlamp and I did not want to lift up my veil with 80,000 bees bouncing off and clinging to it trying to sting me anyway they could. That was the most stings I ever received and it was not fun! But funny now when I think back at my learning curve!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

ha ha ha, learning curve is right ! lol


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Nick as far as bee loss per hive, Ian's number of 1/2 to 1 1/2 pounds per hive is probably a good one. This number can vary greatly from year to year. Hives that have lost most of their summer bees during the fall before move in will drop fewer bees in winter. Most times a heavier drop points to stronger hives and better survival because this usually means the hives are bigger to begin with. (Of course if disease is not under control, then the hives may just be dying.) No bee drop is a really bad thing.

I used to use a headlamp that had a red light option but lost it during a bee move last year. So, this year I have only been using a white light headlamp and have gotten away with it so far. However, as I said before, I do drop the temp down to just above freezing if I am going to work in the wintering room.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

took a peak into the nucs the other day, they seem to be holding a larger cluster than I thought when I brought them in.

Five weeks ! The time will fly!


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Ian,

Do you see any difference in winter survival of the singles versus the doubles? Seems like I always have up to 40 or so hives I can't seem to fit on the semi headed to almonds and I always have a mixture of singles and doubles to choose from. My building is a bit larger and I'd have fewer bees to help heat it so I'd have to supplement the heat a bit to keep it at 5 degrees C or so. Also interested in the genetics of the bees you have the best luck with for wintering indoors--that would factor into who stays and who goes to CA in the fall.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

ya, indoor wintering will work for you, we are basically neighbours ! Cheers!

As for the question about singles and doubles, I see a bit of a larger population from the doubles, but as for wintering losses, I see no difference. I have both double and single arrangement as well as 5 frame nucs. I use alot of Cali queens, carni, they work great !


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Thanks Ian; I'll give this a try next fall!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

sure beats wrapping


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Ian said:


> sure beats wrapping


Absolutely! Wrapping is what got me sending bees to almonds a long time ago when there was little economic return.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

ha ha ha, probably would of sent me to Cali also ! , hmmmm


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## Imperial (Mar 1, 2013)

BMAC said:


> How large a building?


400 Sq Ft Studio Apartment 


BMAC said:


> How warm are you keeping it?


Room temperature


BMAC said:


> How many NUCs do you have inside?


7 


BMAC said:


> Do you keep it completely dark?


Fluorescent and Black lights with lasers and disco balls.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

There's always 1 in a crowd. Pat yourself on the back now and say "I am clever".


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## Imperial (Mar 1, 2013)

BMAC said:


> There's always 1 in a crowd. Pat yourself on the back now and say "I am clever".


I already did, should I do it again? 

I wonder what would happen if you left them in your apartment? I mean aside from the noise if anything they'd be providing cooling at heating right?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Do it and let us know your result.


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