# Whats a guy to do?



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Looking for advice for another beekeeper. This is not myself or a family member. He asked me what I would do in his situation and I have told him my observations and suggestions. Looking for advice from those of you in this business over 20 years and have bought out other operations over the course of their career. 

Background: 
Kept bees about 4 years and is looking to buy out his "boss" who has a 200 hive operation in the Rocky Mountain area of the US.
Boss says he wants to "sell out" but won't come up with a specific date or price structure for the transfer. Date keeps moving as does estimated purchase price. 
The "apprentice" does most of the work. Boss is willing to pay less than $8 per hour for the work done. 
Operation garnered about a 100 lb average last year on 100 hives. +- 

what should he do?
Move on? 
Walk? 
Stick around for more Experience?


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

That is just a tough situation for your friend. I would think it depends on the owner and if he really intends to sell and at a fair price. Does your friend keep bees of his own? Why not start/keep bees of his own on the side and gradually grow his numbers? He would still earn a wage, gain experience and work towards his goal of owning more hives. He could spilt aggressively initially and avoid the need for extraction equipment by diverting resources towards growing his numbers.

Again, it really depends on your friend and his boss as to what would work best. If his boss would like to see your friend succeed in the business, there are many possibilities.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

There is a difference in what someone wants. and what someone does. Most want to be millionaires. few do it. I look for the later and do not really pay much attention to what people say they want.

If what I wanted was a 200 hive operation. i woudl simply ask my constantly, "What am I doing to get it"? And the way there starts to reveal itself. He is not shackled to some owner selling his operation.


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## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

I don't have 20 years of beekeeping experience but I do have 35 years of working for people and starting my own business. 15 years of promises and then at a different place 4 years of promises. One way to keep good people working for less then they are worth is to promise them a bright future. Sometimes it works, for me all it did was make me grow to distrust family and some close friends. 

The current owner owes him nothing and when a better offer comes along he'll realize that. Maybe a good word to the new owner but unless something is in writing and the plan clearly stated no more.

If he wants to be a keeper do as previous posters have said, start small, build the business and when the time comes either merge the two operations or hit the road. $ 8 an hour is not a livable wage if he can spend the next 2, 5 or 10 years earning that money believing in promises is his decision.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Life advice; If he has not absorbed most of what is available from owner, owner is holding back or he is in the wrong line of work. Owner has lost interest and is staying in because he is paying $8.
In all fairness the owner may not be following through because he just not see your friend as making a success of it. That is hard to say to someone you like. Is that a fair judgement?
Time to go or negotiate. Hard to negotiate from strenghth at $8. He needs to start to show he has an alternative. Take a time off for a job interview. Get those first hives even if it is old junk or new junk. Ask the owner to help him get started (so he is in a better position to pay the owner a fair price ). The true situation will show quickly.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

there is some value in buying his op as it comes with territory and a complete set up, your friend, if he is serious should pencil out the value of the operation, and make him a firm offer. At that point either his boss takes it, or negotiates, or passes on the offer. Then your friend knows exactly where he stands and that is that. Move on,


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

I see the $8 an hour as the key to this entire deal!
If the seller is at all intrested in selling I feel he would be "stepping up" so to speak to help the purchaser in a good faith effort money wise to help make the sale work.
Not aware of banks lending much money if even at all to purchase bee businesses.
Yes Mr. banker I would like to buy my boss out & I make $8.00 an hour working for him and we have talked price over the past months and the price keeps changing and so does the selling dates, but I really want to keep bees and so what do ya think about helping me out?
Me thinks it's time for the walking shoes to be sized up & shown to the seller. If you are his only game in town me thinks Mr. Seller may come to his senses. Like I said the $8 an hour thing is a game changer for sure!!


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

The boss is taking advantage of the employee beek with the employee's permission.
The boss has eliminated his competition by keeping the beek working for him and paying little.
The boss has a sweeeeet deal (cheap labor) and is not about to change anything as the work is getting done and the honey keeps rolling in.
The boss probably would not keep the bees if he had to do it all himself or if he had to find another employee.
The boss is how old? Maybe age is a factor.

The employee needs to have a conversation with boss where he asks for some hives as payment for being underpaid all these years. What happens then, will tell all. If the boss is not willing to let some hives loose, then you know he is not going to follow through with transfer of said bee business in a deal.

The ball is then in the employee beeks court. The employee needs to find another job that will pay him enough to start building up his own operation if it is apparent that the bee operation will not be "sold" to him.

It also sounds like the employee can handle an operation like that or he wouldn't have worked out for 4 years inspite of being cheap labor.

Don't make an enemy of the boss. He may/will be the competition when the employee starts his own bee business.


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## Billthebeekeeper (May 29, 2013)

Thanks everyone for their advice and opinions. I am the guy that Phil (Honey-4-All) was asking the question for. Thank you so much Phil for your helpfulness here. I'll just be clarifying a little and responding to what has been said.


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## Billthebeekeeper (May 29, 2013)

I have been keeping bees of my own for 3 1/2 years, and I now have 15 hives. Last March (2012), my current boss came and asked my to work for him. I accepted, and the starting (ouch) wage he said we'd start with is $7/hour. He said that there would be raises in the future. He had 68 hives at that time, and I did queen rearing & splits, and got him up to 95 hives. I also helped him with every last aspect of the business, a little bookkeeping, honey harvesting, moving bees, building and painting equipment, treating hives, etc, just about EVERYTHING that goes with running a commercial operation. I'm 20 years old, single, and have a bit of time on my hands, and have learned quite a bit about bees and beekeeping, having studied it well and hard for the past three years. I feel ready to handle a commercial op, and based on the fact that I plan on commercial beekeeping being my career, I'd like to get my life going. So I have two options: build my own, or buy his. I already run my own business, plus working 2 other jobs, which pay 2x and 3x more than working for my boss does.

My boss doesn't want to sell for at least 2 years, because he wants to get social security. He and his wife are in their sixties. He also hasn't come up with an exact figure of what the business is worth. He has given me a complete list of assets, but asks that it be kept confidential. We bought 100 packages this year, and after winter losses, we have about 175 hives. He would like to sell the business to me, and may I say this: He is even expecting me to buy it. BUT I'm not sure I want to buy it. He also refuses to pay me more than $7/hr based on these mistakes I made last year: 1. I accidentally started a fire with my smoker, and we lost 8 hives from that. I also didn't realize that Russian hybrid bees are a little harder to get to rear queens than some; I had been used to Italians and Carniolans. But I got it figured out at a little expense ($150?), unfortunately just too late to really get some good 2012 queens. So he says he is not comfortable raising my wage more than $7/hr based on last years mistakes. The problem I have with that is this: I feel that I am worth at least $12/hr, and that is for unskilled labor. However, beekeeping, especially queen rearing/splits and suchlike is skilled labor. The only reason I am sticking around is for a little more experience, and for the fact that I am doing what I love: working with bees. I also have committed to doing more splits and raising more queens this year for him, so I can't quit until I have fulfilled that.

Also, my other jobs are coming in competition with working bees, and I'd rather get paid a lot more than work bees for $7/hr. So I am tempted to toss in the towel, and just build my own operation. The other problem is that he is building his business exponentially (500+ hives in the next few years) based on the expectation that I will buy it. Now I have just recently (day before yesterday, via email) notified him that we must move ahead with the understanding that I may not buy this business. He hasn't replied yet. Anyway, that's somewhat the formal go-over. Let me know what you think.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

So he's paying you _less_ to build the business, so he can sell it to you for _more_ later? Hmmm... :scratch: :no:


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## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

If you can go from 68 hives to 500+ hives in a couple of years it seems the only thing in your way is the money to expand your own operation. Unless he can give you some guidelines on how the business will be priced and how he will get paid I would consider just putting your efforts into your own business. Is it easier to invest a couple grand a year for the next couple of years or come up with the big bucks to buy him out.


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## Billthebeekeeper (May 29, 2013)

Another thing I need to do is to get the bookwork from the past 5-8 years. I do know that he was in the red in 2012. And he wants full payment upfront for the business when he sells it, no installments or such.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

So your unskilled wage is being docked for your efforts as a skilled manager? The old concept would be as an apprentice, under that system graduation would include the beginnings of your own trade.

Feelings are creeping into your negoiations, never a good thing.

If you do end up in a sale, the stucture of the sale is crucial. A capital gain does no good for his SS, structured as a long term consultant (wage) now would probably make a current transfer most likely to work for both of you.


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## Billthebeekeeper (May 29, 2013)

Saltybee said:


> Feelings are creeping into your negoiations, never a good thing.


How do you mean?


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## Brian Suchan (Apr 6, 2005)

Do you have anyother options as far as a way too make a living?? Did you go to college or anytype of tradeschool?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

$7 an hour? Tell him to pound sand unless he comes up with a figure and contract and a raise.


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## Billthebeekeeper (May 29, 2013)

Brian Suchan said:


> Do you have anyother options as far as a way too make a living?? Did you go to college or anytype of tradeschool?


Yes:
Home inspection
In-home pet care
Lawn care
Possibly paramedic


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Billthebeekeeper said:


> How do you mean?


He is feeling you owe him. You are not sure how you are being treated. The only questions that count; What would a ready, willing and able buyer and sellor value the business today?, will the two of you work together towards your mutual benefit moving forward or have you now reached a point of mistrust?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I suggest that you walk away. This guy sounds like he's exploiting you now and wants to cash in on you later. If you want to increase your hive numbers then save your money and find an alternate route. Don't burn bridges, but simply explain that you can't afford to work for $7/hr and wish him well.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

AstroBee said:


> I suggest that you walk away. This guy sounds like he's exploiting you now and wants to cash in on you later. If you want to increase your hive numbers then save your money and find an alternate route. Don't burn bridges, but simply explain that you can't afford to work for $7/hr and wish him well.


I'm afraid that it is pretty much a; ditto.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I don't hardly see how a young man could possible be able to buy a 500hive operation in a couple years. Especially if he is expecting you to come up with a lump sum payment. Most likely a conventional bank would not loan money on a venture like that. I think you are going about it the right way by sending him something in the mail he has to respond to. Then you will know where you stand. You may be better off by building your own business from the hives you already have. It will take a little more time but, it will be yours in the end.


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## coopermaple (Aug 30, 2009)

Bill, I was in a similar situation 30 years ago, not bees. I was hired as a herdsman on a dairy farm right out of college. The farmer was 70+ and reportedly looking for a young person to come in and work for a year or so and take over the farm as they had no kids. I was working 6 days a week 12+ hours a day for $160 a week living in an old house in much need of repairs. In 13 months I had his herd ave. up 25% to highest he had ever been, we were milking more cows, getting cows bred back on time, everything was going well for him including his bottom line, he was looking to buy some new equipment to save on taxes. Now did he want to give me credit for the improvements, not really but he couldn't deny I made some major improvements. He didn't think I needed a raise. He never wanted to talk about a time table to transfer let alone any price. Final straw came when a neighboring farmers son came in and asked about buying the cows and renting the farm because he didn't like working with his dad. The old guy quoted him a price for the cows instantly! I gave my notice a couple days later. The old guy finally sold out to a 3rd guy a year later after his wife had cancer.

With all of that my advice is to either get him to sell now while it might be affordable to you or at least give you a substantial pay raise. Other wise thank him for the experience and move on. Right now it looks like he has you volunteering to finance his retirement at your expense.
Best of luck with your decision!


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## adson (Nov 25, 2009)

It might be possible to get him to start selling the business one yard at a time.
That might allow the employee to start to build his business and see how the price works out for him vs. just building his own yards. I could see that working to his advantage in the later stages as the seller will be finding it harder to get him to work for $7 anymore.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

He's docking you for losses but no bonus for gain? Does not sound good at all, he does not sound like a stand up business man from what I read here.


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## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

Did you ever say how many hours a week you are working? Does he look at this as a learning experience for you or do you bring a lot of expertise to the table for him? If he is teaching you how to graft, split hives etc. part of your compensation is learning how to be a keeper.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Easy problem... time for a WALK AWAY SPLIT..........


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

gmcharlie said:


> Easy problem... time for a WALK AWAY SPLIT..........


Great line. Cracked me up.


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## Billthebeekeeper (May 29, 2013)

alblancher said:


> Did you ever say how many hours a week you are working? Does he look at this as a learning experience for you or do you bring a lot of expertise to the table for him? If he is teaching you how to graft, split hives etc. part of your compensation is learning how to be a keeper.


I work between 10 and 15 hours a week. I knew how to graft, raise queens, and do splits before I started working for him. That's part of the problem: He thinks he is teaching me, while I do (humbly) feel like I bring quite a bit of expertise to the business. I have learned a bit from him. I have my ways and methods, but I willingly do things his way while on the job. He couldn't be too much happier with my work. But he says he can't afford to pay me more than $7/hr for now, and I can't afford to work for $7 an hour.


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

Time to walk.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

The old man is building his business on your back using profits from your work and using money that he should have paid you.

He says he can't afford to pay you more...............truth is, he can't afford to lose you!
He would not do all the work you do for the pay you are receiving.

He knows all this and so do you.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Time to go... time to go (think Pink Floyd now) Work for yourself at $2 to $3 per hour while you build yourself up. Try putting more hours at that $21 an hour hen you can get experience from another perspective.

Jean-Marc


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## Steves1967 (May 16, 2012)

Bill, you said you are a 20 year old single guy? BUILD YOUR OWN BUSINESS, and start now! I can only see this guy using you up and then springing an idiotically high purchase price on you in a couple years.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Cut your loses. JUST WALK AWAY. Your young and it sounds like you have been building the business for your boss. Why not just do it for yourself.:digging:


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

If you are in a state that has registered yards, and distance regulation, then this requires a little more thought. If not, he has nothing you can not replace, possibly cheaper than his price. I vote via aaaahhhnold - "Hasta la vista, baby"

Crazy Roland


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## Billthebeekeeper (May 29, 2013)

:update:

Well, I have been working with my boss a lot the last several days. Needless to say, we seriously discussed my email. It turns out it was good. I said I need a better wage to continue working for him, or I will kindly need to move on. He got a little worried, and by way of further conversation, we have set a date at the beginning of July to have a business meeting discussing and finalizing a wage which will be satisfactory. As far as the business and sale of the same, I stated that I was not interested in buying for now, but that purchase is not out of the picture, but it will be awhile. He was fine with that, and said that we will move forward with the understanding that it will get sold in his timing, to myself, or to someone who makes a decent offer; all of which I am in full support and agreement. He was a little disappointed that he can't count on me to buy, but well understands my position. I very much appreciated his attitude, understanding, and acceptance of my thoughts and actions. All is well and I very much appreciate each of your input. Thank you! Discussion not closed, feel free to add more!


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Sounds encouraging. But if the meeting in July doesn't happen on time, walk immediately.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Why didn't you negotiate for hives, equipment, etc. in lieu of other consideration?

Think of it as a way of leveraging yourself into business, while not being too confrontational.

July is a month away, and it may be your local dearth season.

So, I don't see your current position as being any stronger than before.

Ask to make some July splits for yourself, with some equipment thrown in as well.

If you have both a motive to work his operation, while being able to sustain yourself (and build a possible bankroll/future), he shouldn't be to disagreeable to the idea.

If he doesn't agree, then you pretty much know that you're just 'a hired hand'.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Glad you talked. Win-win is better than lose -lose.


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## honeybeebee (Jan 27, 2013)

The time to ask and get more money is right when it's time to extract.


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## Steves1967 (May 16, 2012)

Continue to grow your own operation! Eat ramen and invest in yourself!


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

You need to walk away, pick up more hours at the other jobs that pay more and buy your own equipment and make arrangements for packages in the spring. You will be money and time ahead. But on that note, buying bees and equipment is the easy part.............finding the land I the hard part, do you already have arrangements with people for land usage?

I wish you the best and look forward to hearing about your progress!!!!


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## Billthebeekeeper (May 29, 2013)

Andrew Dewey said:


> Sounds encouraging. But if the meeting in July doesn't happen on time, walk immediately.


Yeah, there's no reason to think it won't, but I will keep that in mind. The reality is: My boss and I have a very good relationship, except for the minor facts of being iffy about selling and also underpaying me. 



WLC said:


> Why didn't you negotiate for hives, equipment, etc. in lieu of other consideration?
> 
> Think of it as a way of leveraging yourself into business, while not being too confrontational.
> 
> ...


I may try to do just that, negotiate for hives/equipment. The asking for some July splits may be a good idea also, let me see what happens. 



honeybeebee said:


> The time to ask and get more money is right when it's time to extract.


Right on!



BeeGhost said:


> You need to walk away, pick up more hours at the other jobs that pay more and buy your own equipment and make arrangements for packages in the spring. You will be money and time ahead. But on that note, buying bees and equipment is the easy part.............finding the land I the hard part, do you already have arrangements with people for land usage?
> 
> I wish you the best and look forward to hearing about your progress!!!!


Thank you! I will work all jobs until they conflict with each other and then I will place the better-paying ones on the top of the priority list. That is my plan: to make some money and buy packages and equipment next spring. I have plenty of yards, just not enough bees to fill them all!

Thanks again to each one who has input here; it's very valuable, and I appreciate it.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Time to think taxes, actually past time to think taxes. Just as important as knowing bees.

The overiding IRS concern is the intent of the parties. It is perfectly legal and will not upset the IRS to consider the tax effect of conducting business. It will greatly upset the IRS to conceal the true intent of the parties.

Taking bees as part of your payment can have greatly different tax impacts:

A. You earn $200 and get paid $75 and a $125 nuc. You both report the $75, pay payroll and income taxes but not the nuc. That is tax fraud by both of you. I hope the IRS catches you.

B. You earn $200 and report it. From warmth of heart and unrelated to performance he also gives you a nuc. It is a tax free gift, congratulations.

C. You perform the labor, he provides the materials and you and he have an informal partnership. You split the results good or bad. Payroll tax free and tax free until sale of product.

D. You earn $200 and report $200 but receive $190 and $10 worth of queen cells, lumber and bees that eventually becomes a $125 nuc. No problem, $200 is what earned in taxable income. The $115 is deferred.

The owner needs to look at how he is structuring the sale. Breifly he may choose to take ordinary income now , pay the extra taxes now and be rewarded with a possible increase in Social Security for the rest of his retirement. Or he may choose to structure the sale as a capital gain and end up with a larger nestegg. It is perfectly legal to structure the sale in his most beneficial manner. It is totatly fraud to try to make the sale appear to be something it is not.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

Billthebeekeeper said:


> Yeah, there's no reason to think it won't, but I will keep that in mind. The reality is: My boss and I have a very good relationship, except for the minor facts of being iffy about selling and also underpaying me.''
> 
> Well, he ****ed well better be happy with you, considering you are able to do all those different aspects of bee raising and are doing it for $7 an hour.
> 
> ...


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## bugmeister (Feb 26, 2013)

Hey bill, have dealt with this situation a few times in various businesses. An indecisive boss/ business seller is exactly that- indecisive. the best thing I think you can do for him and you is to walk now. you will force both your and his decision and you will both live heather, happier and less stressful lives. you have the experience and confidence and can start from scratch and build the business-you already have been successful doing just that. he can then decide what his next steps are. I think you might come into some bargain priced wood ware and stuff. You are waiting for something that might never happen so make it happen , for your self. it is not being selfish- it is the right and healthy thing to do for you both. Good luck- its not easy - its hard but you will look back and say- glad I did!


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