# Those *&(%$#+?/ bees



## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Dick 

SInce the topic of the day around here seems to be entrance location, where did you put yours? And also, how big (long) is your hive and did you reduce it at all with a follower board or feeder?
Finally, what type of top bar design did you use on the top bars that did not have the starter strips?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would build a frame to fit under the top bar and cut the comb and tie it into the frame the right direction. Or, better yet, make a "swarm catching frame to fit the TBH and put the comb in that.

Do you have some kind of guide on the rest of them? Sometimes I get away with no guide but staring off right is the important part. Once they have one comb running the right way the rest seeem to paralell that one.

Maybe this is a good argument for using a follower.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

The hive is oriented N-S with the main entrance facing south. On the west side there are a couple half-diameter holes. The hive was made with scrap plywood. One piece had those holes in it, so I just left them open. Its a Kenya design. I took it from Eva Cranes book. Internal length comes out to about 32 inches. The top bars were cut from 3/4 boards. I also cut a slot running the length of the bars in each of them to install starter strips. 

The bees are Carnies from a four-pound package. They sure dont need all that space yet, so Ill check them in another day or so and will try the follower idea, it they want to insist on doing things their way.

Michael, can you elaborate a little more on the guide you mentioned?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I was talking about building a "swarm catching" frame to fit the TBH and cut the comb and tie it in this to get them going straight. Basically take a 1 1/2" wide board and split it and build two 11/16" or so wide frames hinged with wire to hold in the comb. Like this:

http://www.beesource.com/plans/swarmfrm.pdf 

Only modified to fit the shape of the top bar hive and leave 3/8" space around it. I use a small piece of a 2 liter bottle stapled on both halves for the hinge.

It would probably be useful to have a few around anyway for combs that collapse from time to time. I wouldn't bother with honey combs, but when a honey comb collapses and takes a brood comb down with it, it would be handy to have.


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## bobobee (May 21, 2004)

My top bars are 1-1/4" wide by 1-3/8" deep, ripped from
scrap 2x4. I put a 60 degree bevel on the bars w/ 1/8" flat on the bottom of the bars & notch the ends to sit flat on the 
sides of the hive. The bees have built remarkably straight comb off these bars with little need for correction. I highly recommend this top bar design. I just used a table saw to cut the angles...
I had a similar situation recently in a Lang hive where I put a new box with small cell starter strips (half a piece of foundation per frame) & the bees ignored the foundation & built their own comb perpendicular & attached to the bottom of the starter strips. What a mess!

Alethea


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Michael this is a great idea!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Another reason it would be handy to have would be if you need some eggs because you suspect they might be queenless you can steal some brood comb from anywhere and cut it to fit the swarm catching frame and put it in the top bar hive, even if the hive it comes from is a standard Langstroth or a different sized top bar hive.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Dick,
In almost every feral colony I have collected and heard tell about has the combs aligned along the north-south axis. I face all my based on what the bees do. I keep adjusting the facing until they "snap to" and build comb right along the top bar. If I face too far to the north or south, they bend new combs back towards their prefered facing. They will change as the seasons change, facing slightly more north or south as the sun declines through the year. I believe the facing should be to where the sun rises on the equinox to get the "center" of the facing arc.


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## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

My TBH has comb facing E-W and they built nice straight comb. No problems other than a mouse. Now this is just my example of one so thake it for what it's worth.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

> They were started right but as they progressed foward they combs started going perpendicular to the top bars.





> Appearantly they didn't stay in comb design school long enough as they've started building perpendicular to the bars.





> In almost every feral colony I have collected and heard tell about has the combs aligned along the north-south axis.





> The bees prefer a south facing entrance, and they prefer combs that face east towards the rising sun (axis roughly north-south)


I guess Ill have to keep an eye on these combs. For right now, after rearranging their combs, they are doing as *I* want them to and not as *they* want to. This TBH is so cool!


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Well, they did it! They started curving a few of their latest combs and attached them to the top bar directly in front. Scott, you told me I had nothing to be afraid of!  

I had to do some cutting and rearranging today. I hope they can follow directions this time. 

Other than that the new tbh is coming along fairly well. I have decided to give it a name. I'm going to call it Gilligan's Island.....


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Hi Dick

Glad to hear your update on Gilligan's Island! sounds like they have at least started going in the right direction.

Most of my TBH's started curving their comb on the ends of the bars after a while. I just slip the hive tool along the side to clear the attached comb. If the comb is new and empty, sometimes you can cut it from above by then slipping the tool down between the top bars, then just cull out the comb, or try to straighten it a little.

If it has honey in then you can harvest it!

Sounds like you are doing great!


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Dick,
What do you mean I told you you have nothing to be afraid of, and what are refering to? I did infact say the bees will curve the comb.

Scot


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## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

Bobobee's top bar with the 60 degree angles sounds a lot like the old "foundationless frame" top bar. Such bars will be a bit of a pain to make, but if they work really well they'd be much preferable to kerfing and using a spline or having to use a starter strip.
Ox


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

> Dick,
> What do you mean I told you you have nothing to be afraid of, and what are refering to?


Under the topic Comb going astray
Back on May 29 I said:


> You guys are beginning to scare me.


On June 1 you said:


> Dick,
> There is nothing to be scared of.


Then on June 1 I said:


> Oh, Thank God!


(followed by a smiley face)


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Quote,
Well, they did it! They started curving a few of their latest combs and attached them to the top bar directly in front. Scott, you told me I had nothing to be afraid of! 

I had to do some cutting and rearranging today. I hope they can follow directions this time. 

Dick, 
I had similar problems with my first one last season (not perpendicular) If they are just curving the ends I would leave them alone. there has been much speculation on this forum that this may be a air circulation or ventilation attempt on the bees part, Who knows? I left it alone the first season and made corrections early this season Now look at what I got everything seems to be comming along just fine. This is my argument for minimizing intervention in the early stages of the brood nest development.

http://photobucket.com/albums/y291/mikisbees/?action=view&current=DSCF0104.jpg 


http://photobucket.com/albums/y291/mikisbees/?action=view&current=DSCF0099.jpg 

This hive is 16 inches deep and a gangbuster today.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Oh that is SO out of context. In fact even in that thread I talked about curving comb and that you will have to deal with it, mostly in new hives...which this is, right Dick?


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## AlpineJean (Apr 3, 2005)

Good pics Gary. Someday I am going to get a digital camera then I can share what's going on w/ us too. The transfers from the Langs are comical in how ugly it all looks but hey, the bees are being...


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Right you are Scott.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

I think Scott was taken out of context and he is right when he says its nothing to be scared of, its not. You have a problem and it can be corrected. Scott and I sit on oppisite sides of the fence when it comes to brood nest management. He likes to micro manage and I like to wait to see what the bees will do on thier own. If I choose to micro manage I would take his advice.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

I was beeing facetious. I guess it wasn't seen that way. Oh well.....


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Miki,
I don't think I could be classified as a micro manager, it had been almost a month and a half before I got into my hives this week. When installing a new pacakge into a TBH, you really need to be guiding the bees to build straight comb, because the bees and you have different points of view on what is orderly. Bees will diverge further and further from what you expect (and desire usually) in nest building. I let them manage their own nest, but when it comes to building comb, I still want it as straight and small cell as possible. Its a matter of being able to get into the hives and inspect them properly. If you go ahead and let them mess things up in the beginning and fix it later, you are causing more harm than you think. If you fix it very early before they really have any significant brooding, you cause the bees maybe a couple of weeks setback. Wait until later and you can cause them a whole season's worth of setback leaving you with bees that can barely make it through winter because they couldn't build up well enough.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Like I said we sit on different sides of the fence and I have heard the arguments before. It was mans intervention that messed them up in the first place. Once we accept the fact that we will never control mother nature maybe we will stop messing up our planet so there will be something left for future generations. I am the type that learns from past mistakes, so we will have to just agree to disagree. The comb in my hives is not perfect (in a humans opinion) but I can inspect it and the bees work with it. I call that a good compromise.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Miki,
We probably have a lot more in common than you think. I am a strict organic beekeeper, I don't interfere with the bees at all, except I do understand the necessity to make inspections slightly less arduous than working a feral hive. I keep broodnest in order, don't move things all around I don't make the bees do things at inappropriate times, in fact I don't make them do anything at all except two things. I want them to live in my boxes (since I am a beekeeper), and I'd like them to build stright comb. That means comb that doesn't span across more than one bar, and comb that I don't need to perform surgery just to inspect through the whole hive.

I left the bees alone to do there own thing the first time I installed them in TBHs. I waited FAR too long before I intervened and those bees suffered because at least here where I live, it is required that the hives be inspected by an official inspector. To keep these bees legal, I had to do surgery. Unfortunately I did it too late and the damage was worse because of all the work that needed to be done.

Just like you I learned from my mistakes. I don't new installations make such a mess anymore. I help them keep things striaght. Once they are straight they generally stay very straight.


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