# Tiny queen breeding/rearing boxes.



## Dconrad (Jul 3, 2012)

Steves1967 said:


> Lauri recently posted photos of some tiny queen rearing hives she has built. Half the size of a five frame nuc I believe. I am just curious, is the reason for these just to make it so much easier to find the queen?


and also takes less resources ie bees 

DC


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I think the resources is the biggest reason for using mini nucs. Last year was my first year raising queens and it does take a bunch of bee resources to make up the mating nucs. Its not really that hard to get 30 nice looking queen cells but, making up 30 nucs to get them mated in takes quite a few frames of bees.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Dconrad said:


> and also takes less resources


Ditto.


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## Whitetail (Feb 3, 2011)

The down sides are: not using standard sized frames, which prevents you from using your standard colonies for resources.(brood, stores) A large handicap in my book. Also, most are too small to feasibly use as a wintering box. They would also be much more likely to swarm if left to their own devices. I do see the value of them with large operations though..... Very efficient.


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

Queen production model where you can get tons of virgins mated then ship out. Large operations would be looking to take those mated queens and ship them almost immediately, rinse and repeat. Whitetail makes some good points, especially if you're wanting to grow out; virgin>mated queen>nuc.

An alternative to the tiny mating nucs is to set up a queen castle. You can use more standard sized equipment and get multiple queens mated in a small space.


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## Steves1967 (May 16, 2012)

Queen castle, perfect for me! Thanks


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Steves1967 said:


> Queen castle, perfect for me! Thanks


I've used quite a few of the queen castles and I love them too.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The last two years I've used a bunch of baby nucs, but have found them far more troublesome, for my style of beekeeping, than the standard nucs.

The normal nucs i run are 3 deep frame nucs, run at 3 to a standard deep super. They go through the winter so after the initial set up no further bee reources are required. The opposite in fact, I have to remove bees and brood from them during the season, which gets made up into hives and sold.

The baby nucs though, most of which were on loan from another beekeeper, were set up with 250 mls each of bees and a queen cell, so it was possible to get a lot of them just from one strong hive. But from then on, they have to be run to a strict timetable, leave laying queens in them too long & they abscond or the queen simply dissappears. As I'm not dealing in large numbers, my order flow can be erratic and the baby nuc schedule has not suited me.

Large breeders needing a lot of queens in a small time frame, with minimal bee resources, could be served well by baby nucs. Likewise a small hobbyist with just a few hives, and wanting a few replacement queens or maybe a small number to sell, could do well with some baby nucs. Seems for me though, I'm somewhere is the middle, and my business which is selling boith queens, and hives, is better served by having all equipment standard, so as nucs get overpopulated, no worries, I sell them.

My 2 cents, but anyhow, baby nucs are an interesting thing to do I'd recommend anyone give it a go, just be ready for some intensive management..


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## Steves1967 (May 16, 2012)

"Intensive management" is the key here in my case. I am a firefighter on a 24-48 schedule. I can trade and take vacation days during the busy times but for most things I am going to need to miss ten days a month of "intensive management" so queen castles sound really good right now. Of course next year I might think differently


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Quick question: How do you stock the mini mating nucs? and with how much/many bees?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

westernbeekeeper said:


> Quick question: How do you stock the mini mating nucs? and with how much/many bees?


MANN LAKE Mini .25-.35lb


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

I made up my own, they are Il supers deep, and 1/2 the depth of the hive, including the wall. this lets me set 1 or 2 of them on top a regular have to get them charged in the spring. Each one is then divided into 3 sections. 1 small feeder and 2 frames each. 500 bees fills one up nicley, which is about a cup of bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

westernbeekeeper said:


> Quick question: How do you stock the mini mating nucs? and with how much/many bees?


Just to answer that specifically, here's how we did it when I was (long time ago), making up large numbers of these commercially.

It was done inside a large shed, we set the baby nucs out in rows, lids off, and each row was stacked several high. Each nuc had a 250 ml tin of sugar syrup. It was a 2 man job, one guy walked along pulling a comb from each nuc and laying it flat on top of the nuc, and another guy walked behind him with a gas torch and queen cells, he would flame the comb an put the queen cell on, he'd melt the wax just sufficiently so the cell would attach. then we'd dump a couple of packages of bees into a 4 gallon tin, and sprinkle them lightly with water, just enough to stop most of them flying, but not drench them. He would then walk along the row of nucs, dumping 250 ml's (one cup) of bees into each one, the other guy walking behind him putting the lids on. The combs were set in a Y shape, which the cell at the corner of the Y, that is the place the bees would make their small cluster and that is where we had put the queen cell.

The nucs were stacked in the shed for 3 days so that the queen cell would be hatched. Then they were loaded onto the truck and taken out to the yards. Once the queen was laying, we would go along the rows with bees, one guy lifting the lid of each nuc, and the other guy dumping 125 ml (1/2 cup) of bees into each nuc. That enabled the queen to lay a few more eggs which the bees could cover, the queen was then caged a few days later and the nuc given another queen cell.

For someone doiung just a small number of nucs, I would suggest following exactly the same method. Using a nuc box, or anything that can hold a few lb's of bees, take a few shakes of bees from a hive or two, from somewhere out of flight range of where you want to set up the nucs. Set up your nucs, including some feed in each one. Put in the queen cells and dump a cup of bees into each one. You cannot put the nucs in the yard straight away, the queenless bees will drift away. They should be left with the entrances shut for 3 days so the queen cells will hatch, it is very important they are left in a cool place, if the sun shines on them they will cook. After 3 days put them out into the yards. It is essential they have feed, if they don't, in 3 days they will starve.

For someone with just a few nu


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

Oldtimer- would you make up nucs with cells the same way if you could put brood in with the cell? Just wondering if I could reduce drift by closing in the bees for a day or two?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If they can have brood that's a huge advantage. It will certainly reduce drift but will not eliminate it. In these little nucs you don't have to lose many bees to take the nuc below survival level.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I've done a few kinds of mating nucs and really love the mini size. But mine are *deep* mini frames, not the shallows Mann Laks sells. With five deep mini's I get a decent sized mating nuc that is not hard to manage. (Equivalent to 2 1/2 deep full sized frames) Easy to find queens. Easy on my back since I have them at waist or higher level. After the last round of mated queens are sold, I simply combine a few nucs together with a single queen in a modified deep 10 frame box. where they overwinter just fine.










In the spring I feed these hives well until most frames are packed with brood and feed, then distribute to the mini box's just like any split. Wait 15-24 hours (Basically overnight) and introduce a newly hatched marked Virgin directly. I've never had one not accepted as long as they are introduced within a few hours after hatching. I'll do a feed frame front and back with three decently filled brood frames in the center. By the time the first virgin is mated and laying those cells will be empty and ready to accept her eggs. I feed a pollen patty on top so no pollen frame is necessary. They are pretty self sufficient after that. 




















These are the singles I made up last year..hanging in the raspberry patch








I made up about 30 doubles for this spring in standard nuc woodenware.
30 of these will give me 60 mini deep mating nucs:









Just being stored inside until time to use it:



















I used divided deeps last year too and they worked well too.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Here's my starter hive too. I started out with five frames in a ten frame box, using a follower board to keep them corralled. Fed them syrup and pollen patties. As I freshened this colony regularly with new frames of capped brood and young nurse bees, I did not have to take out empty frames..there were none! No reason to remove frames they had filled with stores, so I use a follower board to keep them crowded, but could expand the interior to fit my freshening or manipulations (Getting the graft frame in and out) They all stay on one side of the board and really never cross it if it is empty. They will cross it to get to a feeder though. Works very well. When I eventually filled it, I gave them a long deserved virgin and let them form a nice colony for overwintering. They were happy bees



















I don't know why that one empty frame is in there..disregard that please. 

Her is a box I brushed a few frames of bees into. I let it sit a few hours in warm weather and the older bees fly back to the old hives and scooped what was left into the mating nucs. If I was really picky, I'd run these bees through a queen excluder to remove any drones, but I had no problems this way. 










Heres a photo of new 2012 virgin, just installed. Can't wait until spring! New ideas and all


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

That last picture is a virgin? That"s an 2013 virgin? Wouldn't say it much looks like one. Way to snaky and long IMO. If it is when was it hatched? Little early to be mating queens in Washington isn't it? Nice equipment BTW


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Yellow paint, dude. That may or may not be a clue.
*Confucius say*:One must be observent when keeping of the bee
Or-
Was that Brother adam?

Or maybe OdFrank. He loves being drug into these posts!


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Lauri said:


> Yellow paint, dude. That may or may not be a clue. One must be observent (spelling) when keeping of the bee


Whoa their cowgirl. Put down the gun and the rope. You called it a virgin and I ask you if it is really is one. Didn't look like one to me so I asked. Henceforth you go and edit your post putting in a date and more info. I bet if you ask any of the breeders that handle thousands of queens a year not one would guess that that is a virgin. Not one. Surely not myself. If it was you do a heck of a job raising queens and need to get of that high horse more often and start raising them for sale. Could buy a lot of feed for the price of a virgin that fine. *Nice queen indeed*.

Secondly the color scheme is not a federal mandate punishable by five years in jail. *We happen to use the yellow every year*. Two reasons...... The yellow is the easiest to pick out among the five colors. The contrast..........specially when you put a blue dot on a dark queen with dark bees its just about worthless. The queens rarely last beyond 2 years (occasionally 3) any longer so the color sequence is less important than it used to be. Do you really mark them before their mating flights?

Hive tool now back in holster.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Sorry, I was joking, but I guess that was lost in the text.
Why does this not look like a virgin? 
Here are a few more, right out of the incubator, and actually out of little crummy cells:






















































This last one is a second generation Glenn Carniolan daughter. I feed them my Lance Armstrong special recipe pollen pattys. (Joking again)

And yes, I mark them with paint right after hatching. Great returns. No problems.
(By the way, that is wood stain on my fingenails)
I'd like to mark them with the disks, but they certainly must be way too cumbersome for the virgin to have successful mating flights. If anyone does this I would like to know. 

Marking them saves me so much time in finding them faster, later, I would still do it even if it had a slight impact on mated returns.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

I'm sure most of the breeders in the US would be more than pleased if 90% of the virgins came out looking that nice. She was surely not short on RJ going into day 4 was she. :applause: $28.50 a piece is what I'm thinking. Maybe $30.99 Keep up the nice work. If you sell some let me know. Might want to try a few and test them ourselves. Not dinks please. After posting pics like that you might be up for a charge of false advertising if you did.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Lauri, 
When storing your mating nucs in the off season, what is your method of protecting them from wax moth larvae damage. Very innovative designs by the way :thumbsup:


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

Lauri would you draw out your box & frame plans. Or are just doing deep frames cut in half. With a nuc made up to fit. 
David


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

First of all, here is my gene pool for most of those large virgins you saw posted above. I collected this swarm near Mt. Rainier in 2011 and most of my grafts are from this queen. I got five distinct colors of daughters from this one queen. A lot of diversity to work with. 









Here is the link to a thread where I describe how I cut down my frames:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...vs-10-Frame-Pros-and-Cons&p=886888#post886888


















And I store my nuc box's empty. I store most of half deep frames inside hives with bees. I have the others exposed to the light and cold. It freezes here regularly so No real problems with wax moth.

The box's are standard nuc box's. No need for plans. Just divide them. I fir out the bottom and staple a bottom on it with entrances on both sides










Here's the bottom and one entrance. I had some cedar planks that were too split for any other use. They worked fine in this application. Gave the queen a bit of a landing ramp, although it is not necessary. 









Here are some with a standard migratory top. I cut down 10 frame tops from 16 1/4" to 12" for a generous overhang to keep out the rain.


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## R Dewhurst (Dec 22, 2012)

I just have to say, awesome pics lauri. The queen almost looks like a russian.


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## Steves1967 (May 16, 2012)

Thank you for jumping in Lauri


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

Thanks 
David


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

Lauri, 

I like the mini boxes you made up. What length are you mini top bars?
And that is a very nice looking virgin queen, what is its lineage?


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

A normal frame cut in half. 
David


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Not exactly, at least mine aren't. They are short enough to fit 2 to a row with a rail between - 9 1/4"

Lauri - If there was a prize for best looking equipment you would get it.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Wow, when I grow up I want to raise bees like Lauri!!

For now, I'm settling for having some live bees going into my second spring. 

Those ladies look great and your nails look fine! 

Ed


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Just in fairness to Honey4all, when virgins first come out of the cell they can be pretty big, especially if they were hatched in an incubator. (Well my incubator anyway, I don't know why that is). But they quickly trim down to the size we typically associate with virgins, in preperation for their mating flight.

Having said that, those are some good looking queens in those pics!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

nice pics lauri!

i noticed that you have tried the jzbz cups as will as the mann lake kit ones.

do they both fit equally well into the roller cages? 

have you decided that you like one type better than the other.

can't wait to try this.


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## timgoodin (Mar 10, 2007)

Very nice looking queens and I love the mini nuc pictures. Thanks for great ideas.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I actually graft directly into the brown cell cups of the Mann lake kit type. That way I can use the roller cages inside the finisher hives. Sometimes I still use the grid, but don't depend on it for any schedule. I just go out and grab a frame of larva and graft away into the brown cell cups.BAM! DONE! No waiting for the queen to lay in the cups. I use the JZBZ cells too, but can't use the roller cages with them, until I take the queen cells out of the hive and place in the incubator. Then the JZBZ just sit on the top. 
Due to some finisher hives building burr comb around the capped cells, I just cover them after they are capped with a roller cage and leave in the hive for a while longer. Saves me some frustration for sure. You have great looking capped cells..and a few days later you have a mess! I tried everything folks suggested on this forum. It worked sometimes. But the roller cages work 100% of the time. That's the way I go now.

Thanks for the compliments everyone. It's a good wintertime project for me to mess around with finishes. I want them to look nice on my property, but none the less, they have to work well. I'm really happy with this design and hope this year goes as well as last year!

NY Blues, did you see my post about the swarm I collected that is the genetics of most of these virgins? You can PM me if you have any questions. I got five distinctly different colored daughters out of this one queen. All were very large, started laying a week earlier than any others queens I grafted from and were really outstanding with their performance> I have 50 of the best daughters overwintering for 2013 stock. 
There are few homes in the area near Mt. Rainier where I collected the swarm, and no one appears to have any hives. At this high elevation I am assuming there is a good chance this swarm is at least somewhat Farrell . 

I do sell queens locally and if all goes well this year will be shipping next year on a limited scale. Husband says he will buy me insemination equipment so the gene pool doesn't get too diluted over time. I just play it by ear at this point. 
One of the nice things about these queens laying early is that I get another round of queens mated in my nucs in my short season climate. That means I can get 400 instead of 300 queens in a season. Just do THAT math. Not a guarantee, but it is promising We'll see of the daughters of the daughters also have that same schedule.

Here's my first spring ad. 

http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/grd/3645856493.html

So if you looked at my ad you'll see I will be offering some breeder queens this year. Here is what you'll get if you are interested. 
During the spring, my first batch of mated queens were sold to local's wanting to make early splits, that had queenless hives or want to replace unknown purchased queens from nucs or packages with something Locally mated.
The second and third batches I start selecting queens for 'Keepers' They are the ones when I open the mating nucs, the first thing that comes to mind is WHOA!( or other expressive words I won't say out loud Those are marked as keepers and allowed to grow into a nice colony to overwinter. Those that overwinter well and meet my criteria for strong spring growth and positive traits will be selected for breeders for 2013. Now, I can only graft from so many queens and it would be a shame to just let those others that exibit superior genetics to just be production queens. I will offer those proven Northern Overwintered queens for sale for $75.00. There may or may not be a market for these. We'll see.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood lauri, and many thanks.

on what day are you removing the already caged cells and putting them in the incubator?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I've done some as soon as they were capped, most of them a day or two before expected emergence. Nice to have that flexability if the weather is bad.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

got it. thanks again lauri.


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## RZRBCK BEE (May 14, 2009)

Lauri, I have to say I am impressed with your queens and your mating nucs. The pics on your craigslist ad are awesome too. Good job


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Lauri, can you post a pic of your incubator & explain your method.

what size paint brush did you say you graft with? I can't find the post.

Post #17 pic of feeder. not concerned about Qn having access to feeder? I don't see other than over the top the access.


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