# Tired of no honey for us



## Beewhisperer (Jan 25, 2007)

This is my fourth year of beekeeping, and I just must be missing something. It seems all I do each year is build up a hive that looks great and makes it through the winter, but has no honey for us. I'm just doing something wrong. Here goes:

I have two main hives. Both are full of bees/honey/brood in the two hive bodies. They are queen right. In the spring I get nervous that they are going to swarm, so I put in some empty frames. I think this is where I make my mistake each year. I think I am giving them so much room in the top hive body that they never need me to put on a honey super to give us some honey. 

So how does one make sure the bees have enough room to start laying and putting in some honey in the spring, but not give them so much room that they don't even notice your honey super.

Also, I thought we only had to feed hives that were weak. If they had enough honey to overwinter, then they would just start right up doing their thing in the winter. I went to a bee clinic recently and learned that many feed their hives in Feb/March to get the queen to think it's time to lay eggs, thus building up the hive with loads of workers to tackle the honey flow time. "Ohhhhh!" I said to myself. Well, that makes sense!

But how do you prevent them from swarming when the hive is all full? Does putting on the honey super make them feel they have enough room and they don't leave? Should I split the hive when it's that full of bees? I guess I've just reaching this sort of point where I can keep them alive just fine, and they are strong hives (I just made two splits, one off of each hive, because there were just so many bees I felt they would do well. They are!), but gee...it would be nice to get some honey for us! I'm sorry, I guess I just need it spelled out step by step for me what I should do to get some honey. If you have a reference book I should look at that really spells it out, that would be fine, too. All the books I have read talked about preventing a swarm, which I've done, but they don't tell me how to get that honey super full. They talk like it just "happens". 


Help, and thanks a million!

Cara


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Not sure why you are not getting honey but here are a few things you can try.

In the spring as they build up and start to fill the second box, if you get a flow on put on your supers. They should start filling the supers with honey. Keep adding supers as they get close to being filled out.

If you are not getting honey from strong hives I suspect you may not have enough nectar sources around for them to produce a good crop.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

"If you are not getting honey from strong hives I suspect you may not have enough nectar sources around for them to produce a good crop." -alpha6.

Is that possible? Actually I was curious about this shortly after Beewhisperer started this thread and went to Google Maps to see what the area looks like. My first impression [from the map] was it appears kind of. ...'barren'?! A lot of what looks like flat cultivated land with not much vegetation,..in between; a large golf course nearby in Milan, Indiana also. This is all within what I think is a 2-3-4 mile circle? About 5-10 miles away seems to be more woods and fields.

I wasn't going to comment until I read yours,..alpha6 becuase, "what do I know",..about Indiana,.. . It would be hard to believe [lack of forage] so it's just a thought. I'll pass for now on the rest of the question.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Beewhisperer said:


> (I just made two splits, one off of each hive, because there were just so many bees I felt they would do well. They are!), but gee...it would be nice to get some honey for us!
> Cara


I wonder if this might be part of your predicament. It sounds like you split the two colonies in half just before the spring flow. Did you split because you found swarm cells or just to reduce the worker population? 

To get the most out of your spring flow your goal is to have as many forager bees as possible in each colony, but at the same time prevent the colony from swarming. Lots of bees for spring flow is a good thing as long as they have plenty of room for brood and ample room for nectar storage overhead in supers. 

In past years have your colonies swarmed in the spring? Swarming or splitting will reduce your available honey harvest. Working toward getting surplus honey it may be better in your area to do your splits and harvest honey after the nectar flow, and then feed syrup through the dry months of summer if necessary. 

Just some thoughts.


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## jdb1930 (Apr 20, 2008)

feed feed feed, I keep feed on my bees until they fill "their" honey, then put on supers without feed during the flow.


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## Beewhisperer (Jan 25, 2007)

alpha6 said:


> Not sure why you are not getting honey but here are a few things you can try.
> 
> In the spring as they build up and start to fill the second box, if you get a flow on put on your supers. They should start filling the supers with honey. Keep adding supers as they get close to being filled out.
> 
> If you are not getting honey from strong hives I suspect you may not have enough nectar sources around for them to produce a good crop.


I guess that's possible. We have a lot of farms in this area. Seems like everyone has a ton of Bradford Pear, Weeping Peach and cherry, lots of mustard, loads of dandelions. A lot of people have put in greenhouses in the area and raise their gardens. I wouldn't say it was barren. We live about 5 miles outside of Milan, towards the woods and fields. Hmmm. There are just so many farms with good growing things around, I can't imagine they don't have enough sources, but I guess it may be possible. 

Geesh, what do you do then??

Cara


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## Beewhisperer (Jan 25, 2007)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I wonder if this might be part of your predicament. It sounds like you split the two colonies in half just before the spring flow. Did you split because you found swarm cells or just to reduce the worker population?
> 
> To get the most out of your spring flow your goal is to have as many forager bees as possible in each colony, but at the same time prevent the colony from swarming. Lots of bees for spring flow is a good thing as long as they have plenty of room for brood and ample room for nectar storage overhead in supers.
> 
> ...




I did split because of swarm cells in one hive, and because I was concerned about space for them. There just seemed to be an awful lot of them in there, and I figured I could either put on another hive body or increase the bee yard. Was that a bad choice? I guess it might have been if the problem really is that there aren't enough nectar sources. 

Another thing is, I don't feed in the spring. Maybe if I was feeding from early spring on until they got their honey put in, as was suggested in another post, then there would be enough for the supers when the flow started? 

It's a pretty depressing thought that there aren't enough sources. It's not barren around here at all. There are so many hills and hollers full of gardens growing and lots of flowers. I think part of it might be that I don't feed them and help them out in the early spring. Now I'm going to have four hives to help. I have syrup on the two new ones right now and figured that I would need to all summer while they built up. I double checked today and I see one hive is starting to draw out the comb in the honey super...guess we'll see what happens!

Cara



These are all great ideas, everyone! Thanks a lot for this help.


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## Beewhisperer (Jan 25, 2007)

Mike Gillmore said:


> In past years have your colonies swarmed in the spring? Swarming or splitting will reduce your available honey harvest. Working toward getting surplus honey it may be better in your area to do your splits and harvest honey after the nectar flow, and then feed syrup through the dry months of summer if necessary.
> 
> Just some thoughts.




Forgot to comment on this part...I THINK I did have a swarm last year from one hive, although I didn't notice a decrease in the number of bees in either hive so I thought maybe it was from somewhere else and not my hives (kind of coincidental, but possible). 

I think your suggestion sounds very reasonable. Our flow is pretty much done here, though, except for perhaps locust blooms, but in the past I haven't seen many bees seeming to be interested in them. I look for them to be all over those blooms but I don't see them on there. They LOVED the Bradford Pear and Weeping Cherry, though. 

Well, if worst comes to worst, I will simply keep my hives happy and healthy again for another year, get them through another winter, and use the things I've learned for next year. At least I'm helping the local farmers, eh? It seems every year I learn a little more and do things a little better.


Cara


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## Beewhisperer (Jan 25, 2007)

jdb1930 said:


> feed feed feed, I keep feed on my bees until they fill "their" honey, then put on supers without feed during the flow.


I think I will put this into practice next early spring. Thanks!


Cara


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## Beewhisperer (Jan 25, 2007)

Is that possible? Actually I was curious about this shortly after Beewhisperer started this thread and went to Google Maps to see what the area looks like. My first impression [from the map] was it appears kind of. ...'barren'?! A lot of what looks like flat cultivated land with not much vegetation,..in between; a large golf course nearby in Milan, Indiana also. This is all within what I think is a 2-3-4 mile circle? About 5-10 miles away seems to be more woods and fields.



Yeah, that sounds like us...hehehe. We live south of Milan towards those woods and fields I think you were talking about. 

Cara


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

What floral/nectar sources are within a mile of you? Those are the ones the bees will be working.

Normally, you either decide decide if you want to increase your hives (by splitting) or if you want honey production.

How far away is the closest reliable water source for your bees? If they don't have water close by, that can seriously affect honey production.

Ideally, you do NOT want swarm cells if you want honey production. If the bees make swarm cells, it means your swarm prevention didn't work. Once they make up their mind to swarm, it is very difficult to stop them. Splitting was a wise move - it basically is a controlled swarm.

_I did split because of swarm cells in one hive, and because I was concerned about space for them. There just seemed to be an awful lot of them in there, and I figured I could either put on another hive body or increase the bee yard._

Having an awful lot of bees is what you want.  But just adding another hive body will not prevent them from swarming. They need space in the brood nest, rather than extra space in the hive. Plan on checkerboarding next spring before they even think about swarming.

_I double checked today and I see one hive is starting to draw out the comb in the honey super...guess we'll see what happens!_

If they are drawing out comb, they are on a nectar flow, which eliminates concerns of lack of nectar sources.

If I were you, and I really wanted to get some honey this year...I would take off the inner cover off the honey super, lay a sheet of newspaper over the super, and then stack the new hive that you split off on top of this hive. I would combine the two hives back into one. (I might even add another honey super under the new hive at the top too. This way, you will have a hive with 2 queens laying in it, which adds to the population of bees you have. Eventually the best queen will get rid of the other one, and you have just requeened your hive.)

Also, an easy way to get honey just about anytime is to take the outer frames out of your bottom boxes. Normally the bees use the outside frames for honey storage, and the queen lays in the center frames. If you take these frames of honey, the bees will refill them before winter, and you still get a little honey right away.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

keep a single deep as the broodnest, and load on the supers. If you give them too large of space for broodnest then they will keep backfilling the broodnest and make the broodnest so large they spend all the nectar on raising more brood. A single deep for brood and mediums or shallows for supers. if the queen moves brood up into supers, keep the bottom two supers rotating so that youngest brood is always on the bottom box.


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

understanding the local flora is important. knowing exactly when a nectar flow (lots of one plant blooming) starts, so you can feed to build numbers prior, then stop feeding to produce real honey during the flow, then harvest before a dearth, feeding again. you may not have to do all that once you figure out the nectar schedule, but that would be a way to get honey.


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## garprob (Jan 20, 2009)

Wow- this gets complicated


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

cara writes:
Geesh, what do you do then??

tecumseh:
remember the old saying in regards to real estate... location, location, location.

as a general frame of reference there are locations with no flow (heavy evergreen forest is a good example as would be some forms of extensive monoculture agriculture), there are locations with punctuated flow (like here) and there are locations with constant flows (a number of the northern tier states and canadian locations might apply here).

if you are in an area of no flow your only recourse to resolving the problem of no honey crop is to move the bees to a location where there is a honey crop..... or feed sugar water constantly and convince yourself that that is a honey crop.

if you are in an area with a punctuated flow do as jdb1930 suggest (that's what I do).

if you are in an area with a constant flow just a bit of stimulative feeding in the spring is likely all that is necessary. then the problem becomes how to keep the bees in the box and enough room on top to collect whatever honey crop that the bees might collect.

an unstated problem here is the balance between a booming hive (likely to swarm at any moment) and collecting a honey crop. the two come together and you can't have one without the other.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I almost never get a crop out of a hive that I split before the main honey flow. What might work in your situation if you know when the main flow occurs is this. About two weeks before the main flow, take the queen out of the hive and put her in a nuc with enough bees and stores to take care of her. The bees will build emergancy cells but with no eggs being laid, they will have no brood to feed when the honey flow comes. The unemmployed nurse bees will mature to field bees earlier than otherwise and they will keep collecting honey. If the new queen does well, let the old queen build up a new hive. If the new queen isn't doing so well, get rid of her in the late summer or fall and re-combine the old queen and her new hive with the old hive. This has another advantage in that it puts a break in the reproductive cycle of the varoa mites just when they are building up to peak population.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Honey*

None of the plants or trees you mentioned are major sources of nectar. If you are dependent on minor sources for honey it is much more difficult. Also Italian bees are not very thrifty, they spend most of their resources raising bees in anticipation of a big summer flow that may or may not materialize. Try some Carniolans.


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

Beewhisperer said:


> Our flow is pretty much done here, though, except for perhaps locust blooms, but in the past I haven't seen many bees seeming to be interested in them.


I'm not that far from you and we haven't had a serious flow yet. Yes, things like dandelions, redbuds and dogwoods, but in my experience, the big spring flow happens about the time the tulip poplars bloom. I haven't seen any clover bloom either, and that's a major nectar source.

Another thing I've learned in Indiana, is that our weather is very "spotty". Two summers ago I fed my bees nearly all summer while some beekeeping friends about 40 miles away were having record honey harvests.


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## Beewhisperer (Jan 25, 2007)

indypartridge said:


> I'm not that far from you and we haven't had a serious flow yet. Yes, things like dandelions, redbuds and dogwoods, but in my experience, the big spring flow happens about the time the tulip poplars bloom. I haven't seen any clover bloom either, and that's a major nectar source.
> 
> Another thing I've learned in Indiana, is that our weather is very "spotty". Two summers ago I fed my bees nearly all summer while some beekeeping friends about 40 miles away were having record honey harvests.


Our tulip poplars have bloomed and are done, but we don't have that many in our area. Also, we have TONS of white clovers all summer. We leave large areas of them to grow and alternate where we mow so the bees can have them. I guess that would be considered a big source. 

Another thing I have seen be a big deal to my hives is the yellow plants that cover all the fields around here. Is that mustard? I'm not sure, but they are starting now and when I look at my hives they are bringing in lots of yellow pollen and have frames filled with uncapped honey from someplace. 

I can see, though, that we probably do have more sporatic nectar sources around here, still, I would not say it's a bad area. Just maybe I shouldn't set my sites on having 10 hives in the future, though.

I wonder what sort of crop I could plant in our bottom field that the bees could use as a major source? Any ideas?

Thank you everyone, you are really helping me with all the ideas. I do have a lot to learn.


Cara


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## Beewhisperer (Jan 25, 2007)

*Flow sources*

Come to think of it, I think the BIGGEST thing around here is when all the wild black locusts bloom. We have a grove of it behind our hives, and it just blooms white all over this area, pretty soon it will. So perhaps this will be the local flow, which would mean that I split my hives before the flow. Oh well....maybe they'll all lay in nectar like crazy? 


Cara


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Just part of the fascination with bees is learning about their pasture. White sweet is the best producer. I bet one of these years they'll make so much honey you won't believe it. Sounds to me like you have good bee sense. Every year is different, you can quote me on that.


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## Beewhisperer (Jan 25, 2007)

*tree error*

I was doing some reading on the internet. We have honey locusts, because they have long thorns and big seed pods in the fall. 

Cara


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Honey*

Do you have enough supers if it does produce? Sounds to me like you're in a pretty good area...when it hits you can hardly believe your eyes.


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## moonlightbeekeeper (Jul 4, 2007)

*beewhisperer*

There seems to be some difference of topics here 
the main thing you need to do for your bees is to learn their behavior they will swarm for only two reasons they are either too congested (prior to a nectar flow) or honey bound. yours seem to be the former not the latter, they need to have space for the queen to lay her eggs and that can bee manipulated by reversing the brood chamber. when the queen starts to lay in mid feb she will bee in the upper chamber. it wont take her long to fill that area up with eggs when this happens the house bee find they are being cramped and have nowhere to go this is where being a beekeeper is helpful if you reverse the brood chamber the queen will be able to fill the chamber that is empty with eggs. when this is done the bottom chamber will be capped you (being the good beekeeper)will reverse the chamber again and as the brood hatches the queen will begin laying in the empty cells pretty simple huh. the other reason that bees will swarm is that they become nectar or honey bound which basically means they have no place to put nectar to ripen it into honey. that can be prevented by placing enough supers on top of the hive before the flow starts to allow the bees room to store it. it takes about 25 pounds of nectar to make 6 pounds of honey so you can see that you need to give the bees a lot of room to get any honey for surplus. the best book for you to read to learn what the scientists know about bees is the HIVE AND THE HONEY BEE get the latest edition from dadant and you can read about all you need to know about being a beekeeper. this forum is good for a lot of things, but you cant beat science for proving what works and what doesn't. also you should bee feeding your bees until you have a nectar flow if the bees are drawing foundation you need to understand that it takes 8 pounds of honey to make a pound of wax and until your bees have a place to put it (drawn comb is worth its weight in gold ) the bees will spend a lot of time and honey into preparing their house to store your honey. I was fortunate to find a bunch of papers written by the late george imirie that explained it the best if you want more info just ask whew my i cant type very fast sorry for the long post but with all the other stuff going on i felt it was necessary to add something that will really help i have not seen many places that bees cant get honey in that area and if your bees make enough honey to make it through the winter they can make enough to get you some too, in fact if you cant get 100 -150 lbs of honey from every hive you are not doing your bees justice. i never thought it possible but after getting the same results as you for three years in a row i tried something new. that year i was rewarded with 478 pounds from 5 hives the next i got 825 pounds from 9 hives and am trying to get 50 hives this year good luck


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*But how do you prevent them from swarming when the hive is all full?*

Demaree method of swarm control was written many years ago and it does work.
http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/demaree.html
Demareeing
The Demaree method is not just a method of manipulating bees, but is a system that can be used for swarm reduction or queen replacement or producing nucleii. Any or all of these options are available at the same time. 

Wedmore was a big proponent of this system, which was first described by *George Demaree in an article in the American Bee Journal in 1884.* I had long been aware of the ideas, but had not tried them when a friend of mine, Bob Boone, (a fellow bee equipment manufacturer) enthused over all of the possibilities and I resolved to try it for myself. 

The method and Wedmore's variations on it have been the basis of my beekeeping up until I no nonger had the physical strength to do the lifting involved. 

The principle behind the Demaree method is the rearrangement of a colony, one one site, in such a way as to separate the queen and foraging force from the brood and nurse bees. That is about the simplest way of stating it, but the permutations of different ways of doing it are enormous. 

My way of doing it... 

Ernie


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

*Discussion*

Mike: 
The reason I wanted to meet with you was not to sell CB, But to fully understand your system. I'm not hard over on the manipulation, and often recommend Dee's pyrimiding up or reversal when appropriate. I really did want to come there, but the blizzerd turned me off. I like driving on snow and ice, But I don't trust others. 

Knocking Old Beekeepers and PHDs is a conditioned response. If you knew how many I have visited and been shown the door, you might understand. You and M. Bush are notable exceptions, and I respect your opinions - even where they are not in agreement with my own. To fail to discuss our differences rationally would be stupid, and I prefer not to consider myself stupid. We'll kick off with just a couple:

My main objection to congestion theory is that it implies repro swarming is accidental or happenstance. IF they get crowded or IF they put nectar in the brood nest, they start swarm preps. Mother Nature is not going to leave reproduction to chance. It's much too important to survival of the species. The social insect lifestyle of our bees need a reliable plan to guarantee survival. Candidly, CB initially was an effort to offset nectar congestion. Two years into observing the effects, it dawned on me that all the forms of congestion are effects of the swarm procedure, and not the other way around.

I consider definition of the honey reserve's role in the process one of my major contributions. When the colony reaches it, they start swarm preps. If they don't reach it, they don't start swarm preps. They often do not percieve empty space added above that reserve. The objective of CB is to improve colony perception of the overhead space added.

The overhead barrier to brood nest expansion is not applicable to your overwintered situation. As I understand it, your overwintered brood is located in the upper brood chamber. Adding a super of drawn comb above gets them storing nectar there. Thats just getting them storing overhead by a technique that's appropriate. No difference of opinion there.

That's enough for starters. Let the naysayers have their say.

Walt (hope I can find this when I look for it.)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>And you differentiate between a so called "Reproductive Swarm" and an "Overcrowded Swarm." Are they really different? If they are, why is the solution the same in both cases.

I guess I don't see the solution the same in both cases. I can pretty much head off an overcrowding swarm with more supers and maybe more ventilation. I can't head off a reproductive swarm with supers it will take some kind of other manipulation to change their mind.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

*Continuation:*

The original question delt with surplus honey in foundation supers above above a double deep wintering configuration. The responses ranged over (A) flows or available field nectar; (B) Colony wax making tendency or drawing foundation; and (C) Other, including making splits, feeding, and different swarm prevention techniques. In none of those posts did I get a sense that the poster had a feel for colony operations in the Southeast. Although marginal, southern IN would qualify as a Southeastern location. Would expect the seasonal colony timeline to be delayed about two weeks from mine.

In this first installment we'll treat field nectar (A) above. The one-liners below are observatios in Tenn. Where applicable, the numbers in parens. will lead you to an expansion of the concept in a published article list in POV. Let's get into it.

A. "Flows"
1. The literature speaks in terms of the "early" and the "main" flows.
2. The break between the two flows is sometimes attributed to the scout bees turning their attention to seeking nest sites-it does occur during the prime reproductive swarm issue period.
3. Locally, field forage peaks through the period that I refer to as the overhead storage "lull". (15,17)
4. Overhead nectar storage is a function of the established colony internal operations, and not field nectar availability. (17, 22)
5. Second year colonies will sometimes store through the lull. (20, 22)
6. New (white in my area) wax does not start in established colonies until the colony emerges from the lull.
7. Generous feeding of nectar substitute can induce early wax making.

We"ll pick up with B in the next installment.
Walt


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

michael bush writes:
I guess I don't see the solution the same in both cases. I can pretty much head off an overcrowding swarm with more supers and maybe more ventilation. I can't head off a reproductive swarm with supers it will take some kind of other manipulation to change their mind.

tecumseh:
I cannot say I see the distiction (I am unsure I can see the difference between a reproductive and overcrowding swarm... which just casually sounds a bit like making a lot of talk over nothing).

I can say that I can reduce the possibility of swarming by setting a hive up to not become overcrowded 'in the brood chamber'. 

A small number of 'requirement' (of the hive) are necessary for a hive to swarm. interced in one or two of these and the possibility that a hive will swarm is reduced. beyond all the talk... it is pretty much that simple. 

One common point of confusion is that much of the literature in regards to 'flow' is accurately reflective of a small section of the us of a (basically the upper mid west). the assumption that these flow might properly describe flows from much of the rest of the country is simple failure to recognize differences (and what these differences mean).

wcubed writes:
My main objection to congestion theory is that it implies repro swarming is accidental or happenstance. IF they get crowded or IF they put nectar in the brood nest, they start swarm preps. Mother Nature is not going to leave reproduction to chance. It's much too important to survival of the species.

tecumseh:
[edit]

which basically comes down to (and said in the simplist of fashion)... does any individual action take into considerion the notion of survival of 'the population'. this is basically a 'homey' statement.... sounds good but holds no water.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

*2 nd installment*

Wax Making/Drawing Foundation
Some generalizations are appropriate to this segment. Honey bees are effiency expert. They apply the work force and resources to meet survival requirments with the least waste. Their lifestyle and the irregular support of field resources demands efficiency and they and they are good at it. Built into their genes are strict ways and means to support their goals. Their primary goals are colony survival and reproduction - in that order. 

In their fiirst season, wax making is one of the top priorities. Be they natural swarms, packages, splits, whatever, they need comb for brood and stores to become established. 
In their second season, they can go either way. If they are satisfied that establishment was gained in the first year, they can behave like the fully established third year colony. But if they sense that establishment was not achived in the first (like foundation in the fringe areas) they can emerge from winter in the establishment mode with wax-making capability.

The following statements are relevant to the established colony in Tenn.
1. In late winter/early spring the colony does not have wax making capability, no matter how much field nectar is out there.
2. In that period, stored wax in bridging or burr comb meets their needs for capping brood. 
3. In the brood nest expansion period, truncating cells from honey storage depth to brood depth adds to the supply of old wax.
4. In the swarm prep period, the colony generates a cadre of wax makers to accompany the swarm. If they fail to commit to swarm by starting swarm cells before repro cut off, those wax makers purge their wax to prepare for other duties. The new wax is either stored in the brood nest or used to extend cells with nectar.
5. In the period of three weeks or so (brood cycle) after repro c/o wax makers are generated to support honey storage during "main flow". 
6. Wax makers are maintained for the rest of the season to take advantage of any sources that show up on the horizon.
Notes:
Am aware that more tropical areas where the colony has some brood year round, they do not reset their seasonal clock, and maintain wax making capability through the early season.
All areas may not have the luxury of abundant field nectar throughout the spring season, but I don't think the bees change their survival format by location. They may mark time through a dropout, delaying the timing sequence, but I'm betting they follow the sequence. 

In summery, wax making is a function of the survival format. Field nectar availability is almost irrelevant. In my area, nectar sources are out there continuously from late Feb through early June. New wax starts about May 1 , start of "main flow." 

My opinions are based on what I see - not on what uncle Harry told me or what I read somewhere. There is some room for error. Conclusions are drawn from what I see. 


Walt


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## moonlightbeekeeper (Jul 4, 2007)

*Wax*

"In summery, wax making is a function of the survival format. Field nectar availability is almost irrelevant. In my area, nectar sources are out there continuously from late Feb through early June. New wax starts about May 1 , start of "main flow." 

My opinions are based on what I see - not on what uncle Harry told me or what I read somewhere. There is some room for error. Conclusions are drawn from what I see. "

[edit]


I think that a lot of times we want to show everyone how much we know about bees, that can bee real overwhelming to a new beekeeper the problem is the same here as it is on other message boards as well, no matter the subject.
The best way to get the bees to make surplus honey is to encourage fast build up prior to a nectar flow, allowing them plenty of space for brood. Placing supers with drawn comb just before the flow starts and allowing the bees to bee bees!

I was taught that the first year your bees will fill their permanent brood chamber and possibly draw out a super of comb the next year they will make enough honey to pay for themselves and the hardware, then the following year enough to make a profit unles you develope a pound a week honey habit 
hope this helps opcorn:


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

*3 rd installment (final)*

The "Other" category should go quickly.
FEEDING
My opinion on stimulative feeding is based on a two-year, all-up test on 130 colonies in the early season. My conclusion was that stimulative feeding of sugar is a myth. Feed if they need it, but if the colony is in contact with overhead capped honey you may doing more harm than good. Details can be found in the second half of the Boardman article (# 35 in POV) Sure, they are growing, but they can only rear the brood volume that the cluster can protect. Cara's indication that she would try feeding prompted my first posting on this thread.
SPLITS
Treated that too. Don't be misled by the title of # 36. I don't do it.
SWARM PREVENTION
It goes without saying that I am biased on this subject. Other swarm prevention approaches do not achieve the brood volumes and resultant populations of checkerboarding. CB is even competetive with two queen systems - with far less work. See the article on Q fecundity (# 40) Note that Barry has changed the home page. Now you click on resources to get to POV.

This concludes the submission of areas of disagreement to preceding posts on this thread. Did I miss anybody? I recognize that my opinions are not mainstream. They are not what you learned - wherever you learned them. Will respond to questions of clarification of my opinions, but will not respond to other conflicting opinions. As noted in the original posting, you are entitled to yours, as am I.

Have at it!
Walt


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

Beewhisperer,

I highly recommend you give Nectar Management / Checkerboarding as described by Walt Wright a try. I have experienced dramatically larger brood volumes during the buildup and much larger honey crops year after year since I started using Walt's methods.

I have seen brood volumes in excess of the equivalent of three deeps at the height of the buildup. Given the same amount of time, it stands to reason that the resulting adult population will be much larger in this situation than in a one deep brood nest. These large populations can put a lot of honey in your supers in a short amount of time.

That being said, I think the best part of learning to use Walt's methods has been how much I've learned while trying to "tweak" the system to maximize productivity in my area.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Cara:
To treat the original question, need some more info. Seems I saw an input that at least one of your colonies was starting to draw foundation this season. Did that get dropped out in the thread suffling, or do I remember it wrong? That's what should be happening in your area now. The area that you describe should produce surplus.

Some factors that might influence prior years performance are size of the overwintered cluster and where the cluster was in late winter - upper or lower deep. A small cluster takes longer to build by virtue of only being able to add brood at a rate that the cluster can protect. Small cluster survivors seldom make surplus. 

Another factor is that the colony often sees the top of their overhead honey as the top of their cavity and work to that limit. Adding foundation above that limit does not generally change that perception. However, if the cluster enfolds that foundation their perception of space is improved and they will start drawing when they have wax making capability.

If one or both are now not drawing the foundation, try this: Put all brood in one of the deeps - wall to wall. The cluster will automatically enfold the foundation if placed immediatly above. They will go to work on it. If you have more frames of brood than one box will hold, center those in the lower deep. What you have done is move the bulk of the cluster upwards to enfold the foundation. (Never made this recomendation before - Will be interested in how it comes out)

Walt


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>My opinion on stimulative feeding is based on a two-year, all-up test on 130 colonies in the early season. My conclusion was that stimulative feeding of sugar is a myth. Feed if they need it, but if the colony is in contact with overhead capped honey you may doing more harm than good.

I started out believing the books on the subject, of course, and after many years of experimentation I've come to the same conclusion as Walt. I was then surprised to find that many of the books written by beekeepers, many of them the early fathers of modern beekeeping, have concluded the same. Doolittle, Miller, Smith, Killion, Taylor and even Brother Adam have written about the fact that a well stocked hive builds up as well whether fed or not, while a hive that is light will not unless you feed.

The other aspect of this, I'm sure is climate. In your climate it might work to feed at a certain time of year to stimulate brood rearing. In my climate the results are more varied than the climate. Some years it does seem to stimulate them, but usually when it does they build up too quickly too soon and swarm or start rearing brood too soon and get caught in a sub zero cold snap and die. Other years the weather is too cold for them to take the syrup and a lot of it goes to waste. All in all I can't say I ever saw a year that I thought the results were outright positive. But to give the benefit of the doubt, it may well be that in some climates where the spring is more reliable as far as feeding that you could find just the right time to feed and have a positive effect.

 "The reader will by now have drawn the conclusion that stimulative feeding, apart from getting the foundations drawn out in the brood chamber, plays no part in our scheme of bee-keeping. This is in fact so." --Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey, Brother Adam 

"Very many, at the present time, seem to think that brood rearing can be made to forge ahead much faster by feeding the bees a teacupful of thin sweet every day than by any other method; but from many experiments along this line during the past thirty years I can only think this a mistaken idea, based on theory rather than on a practical solution of the matter by taking a certain number of colonies in the same apiary, feeding half of them while the other half are left "rich" in stores, as above, but without feeding and then comparing "notes" regarding each half, thus determining which is the better to go into the honey harvest...results show that the "millions of honey at our house" plan followed by what is to come hereafter, will outstrip any of the heretofore known stimulating plans by far in the race for bees in time for the harvest." --A Year's work in an Out Apiary, G.M. Doolittle. 

"Probably the single most important step in management for achieving colony strength, and one most neglected by beekeepers, is to make sure the hives are heavy with stores in the fall, so that they emerge from overwintering already strong early in the spring" --The How-To-Do-It book of Beekeeping, Richard Taylor


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

cara writes:
This is my fourth year of beekeeping, and I just must be missing something. It seems all I do each year is build up a hive that looks great and makes it through the winter, but has no honey for us. I'm just doing something wrong.

tecumseh:
given the number and complexity of the responses are you confuse yet?

my first rule of beekeeping (openly stated whenever I do one of my little horse and pony shows) is that ALL beekeeping is LOCAL. I can do a presentation even 100 miles from my home (say the Montgomery County Beekeeper Association) and my first warning is... conditions are different enough even given this 100 mile distance that what might apply or work in College Station, Tx may not apply in Conroe, Tx. so (if I was u) I would somewhat to highly discount advice from Central Texas, New England, England, or Nebraska (there is quite a good chance that conditions in those location will not so much apply to your own location). 

somethings in the world of the bees ain't that complex... that is when it comes to collecting a honey crop there is a direct relationship between 'the field force' and the surplus honey crop collected. of course the not so simple underlying task here is to have a sufficient field force ahead of the flow to collect a surplus without the hive swarming (in which case the crop is lost for that season).

your first task is to get to understand the nectar producing crops at your location... when they begin producing nectar and when nectar secretion ends. then simply plan to maximize the field force around this time slot. 

as far as what you have done (in post numero uno)... a lot of folks employ spitting to limit swarming (at least I do). timing is important here if you also desire to obtain a honey crop. for myself this typically translates into either splitting well ahead of the season or after the primary nectar producing season, but never during the season. if I split during the season (at least in my own mind) the splits are my crop. If the honey flow here was more constant and less punctuated I suspect I could split and take a bit of honey with a little extra effort.


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