# Trap-out or inside cut-out? Will the hive/honey remains leave bad smells?



## gkervitsky (Nov 20, 2008)

Patbeek, I do extractions all the time and tend to prefer the trapping methods. But, it is not without a set of potential risks and problems, and you do potentially expose yourself to some liability. Your location in AHB territory is one of them. Secondary entrances should be one of your concerns as well as the the possibility that trapping them on the outside will lead to pursuit of entrance/egress from the interior side. I recommend that you read up on some of the details of what you are getting into, The one below is from a Clemson extension office, but I'd imagine that a Florida University would have info more unique to your situation: http://www.clemson.edu/extension/beekeepers/factsheets/honey_bee_colony_removal_from_structures.html

Good luck,
George


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## Northwest PA Beekeeper (Mar 28, 2012)

Are you getting paid for the trapout? Many times, most beekeepers after a trapout, move the trapped bees to a different location and after all the bees are gone (all brood has hatched out), you bring another hive in and set so they can rob out the honey. That then just leaves empty comb which should not smell. One robbed out, you plug all the holes so a new colony can't move in next Spring.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Yes, that sounds great. I will bring an additional hive and let them rob.

How does that work, though? How do you make the other hive go in and rob it? Do you have to douse honey all over the outside as bait?

Regarding liability, how on earth did the Oregon Trail ever happen?

I'm not downplaying the risks and liability involved. I just can't worry about every last threat that could possibly happen on the planet.

However, I WILL make sure there's no way they'll try to pile in the building through an alternate route inside. I appreciate the tips.


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## gkervitsky (Nov 20, 2008)

Not sure about the OR trail, just looking to make sure your prepared as it appears to be something new. For example, it appears that the entrance is near a phone or cable box. If wires pass from exterior to interior at that point, the bees have a penetration on the inside in which to possibly escape. I have had bees exit chandeliers 25-30 feet from an extraction point, as well as exiting bathroom vents. Bees are amazingly resourceful; never underestimate them. Depending how long they are in place, the resources on the inside, and the whether alternate entrances are revealed, the minimum extraction can exceed more than a few weeks.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

gkervitsky,

I was just giving you a hard time.

I absolutely appreciate and agree with everything you are saying and have taken note of it.

Any morsel of advice I can get will be much appreciated.

.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

The amount of darkening on the wall behind the box indicates two things.
1. That hive has been there a while and
2. It is going to be a rather large one.

Myself, I would do a cut out from the inside. Getting paid for taking bees to add to your apiary sounds like a good deal to me!

A trap out will take several weeks and brood will continue to hatch. No to mention the smells and possible infestation of ants and other insects.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

I've decided (ad customer agrees) that I will do an inside cut-out tomorrow morning (Thurs).

I'm even going to do it without a vac. Imagine that.

As long as I nab the queen, most will follow into the hive anyhow - at least theoretically.

From what I understand, Michael Bush prefers not to use a vac because it makes the queen scurry away.

I realize a queen can be replaced, but who wants to spend 20-30 bucks on a bug when we can have it for free?


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

So I go to do the cut-out yesterday with the intent (and agreed upon by the customer) to do an inside cut-out.

I could hear the bees loudly behind the drywall so I assumed it was a safe bet that they would be exposed from the inside. I was wrong. The bees had made their way through a small hole that used to be in the cinder block from an outside box that was on the wall. There were a few bees congregating in a very small space in between the drywall and the cinder block.

So when it was discovered that the bees couldn't be accessed from the inside, I offered the owner two options = = to knock-out the cinder block from the inside or the outside. I told him that, of course, doing it from the inside would have been much more of a mess.

He thought about it and then decided to go for the trap-out option.

Well, I hadn't come fully prepared to do a trap-out, and I live a full hour (plus tolls) from this place, so I had to get a bit creative on short notice (Lesson 1 - be fully prepared for ALL options).

I had some screen material, but I didn't have a good way to mount the cone to the outside wall.

I will post some photos and a short video here in a bit. My wife is kicking me off the desk so she can do some business stuff. (gawwwwd, her priorities).


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

Oh yes, I didn't even have the proper roof with me for my hive because I thought I was going to do a cut-out. The top bars would have kept the bees in just fine with screen and tape for the ride home. I didn't think I'd need any weather protection for the hive for this trip. I was wrong. I ended up having to use a weighted-down tarp until I return to check on it later in the week.

What I ended up doing was cutting a small trash can in half and mounting the top portion of the can with tapcons. Then I used silicone caulk to seal it all up. I staple-gunned the screen to the trash can and I had to staple-gun the screen to a piece of wood to make sure it was sealed all the way down. 

All of this would have been done MUCH better if I had known ahead of time. It's not easy working around a bunch of bees with gloves/suit on during a hot summer Florida afternoon !!!!!!!

And no, I didn't have any brood/eggs to place in there. I had just a small amount of old comb I hairclipped to a couple of the top bars......although I have heard several testimonies on these forums of people who have done trapouts with no brood/eggs AND they have gotten the queen to come out into the trap as well.

I also threw in some lemongrass oil to hopefully lessen my chances of complete failure.

Another thing I thought I did that was a big mistake was having the end of the screen actually staple-gunned to the trap-hive mouth. That's just going to make it easier for the bees to find the entrance back in to the original hive. I didn't think about this issue until after I got home.

Can any of you make a few notes as to what I should do when I return very soon in order to correct this potential (if not assured) disaster?


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

Lawdy, lawdy, lawdy.

Alright, so I return to the place today to check out why the bees weren't going into my hive (as per the customer telling me over the phone....I live 60 miles away).

Two reasons:

1) they had eaten away at some of the silicon caulk around the base of the cover.

2) they had gotten clogged-up with dead bees at the end of the screen funnel.


So, I had pre-made a screen-cone at home attached to a thin piece of plywood and came ready to dismantle everything off the wall and start anew.

All of that is fine, except working around pissed-off AHB (at least I think they probably are) mixed with a hot day with gloves/suit on makes for some interesting times, indeed. These bees are Peeed-off bad. They got me a couple of times. They also will follow me around the entire building. Bad news bees. I may have to replace the queen, even if I get her to come out. 

So I finally get all the original catastrophe taken down and most of the caulk peeled off the wall and finally get my new cone up (after another trip to Home Depot for more silicon and also hitting a grate/drain that's on the side of the driveway and ripped my tire apart.....had to put on spare tire and go buy a new tire......I haven't told my wife this part, nor do I plan on it.)

So when I FINALLY get the proper pieces in tact, the bees start crowding on and into my hive. It was like magic. 

Now I'm HOPING the cone doesn't get clogged-up with bees or something else happens to stop this process for several weeks.

DO NOT TAKE JOBS FAR AWAY UNLESS YOU ARE RICH AND YOUR WIFE SUPPORTS EVERY HOBBY YOU HAVE NO MATTER WHAT !!!!!


So here are the photos and video:


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## gkervitsky (Nov 20, 2008)

PatBeek...

good work and use of applied learning and adaptation. sorry to leave ya hanging...more comments later. Your cone is a little too narrow for my liking. They work best with an upward pointing cone opening....that way gravity helps to keep the path clear. 

GK


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

gkervitsky said:


> PatBeek...
> 
> good work and use of applied learning and adaptation. sorry to leave ya hanging...more comments later. Your cone is a little too narrow for my liking. They work best with an upward pointing cone opening....that way gravity helps to keep the path clear.
> 
> GK


Much appreciated. Keep the suggestions coming.

I only had a little screen left to make the cone. It could have used another layer as well. That's why I had to support it with 22 gauge wire - so it wouldn't flop down.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

The owner of the building sent me an update photo this morning.

Should I be concerned that they are clustering like this on the outside of my hive?

I suppose the worst that can happen is they build some comb on the outside as well. I'll just cut it off and tie it in to the inside.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

It looks like they are still coming and going from the hive clustering should not be a big deal oh and BTW your wife has her own screen name and reads your post anyways. Good luck.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

rtoney said:


> .....and BTW your wife has her own screen name and reads your post anyways. Good luck.


Yeah, her screen name is BeeNaziChick365

But I would venture to guess that there's just no way that the cluster could be the queen?

I would seriously doubt she'd be coming out that soon, even if at all.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Looks like they may be a little warm and are bearding. Queen is not ready to come out for sure. The cone is a little long and seems to have dropped a bit. Maybe due to being clogged again? (Hope not)
Try some #8 hardware cloth (with the 1/8" squares) for your cone. It WILL NOT sag and like stated before upward angle so the deceased bees roll back.
Living that far away it pays to spend a little now than a lot later. Not to mention a happier wife! lol


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Mr. Beeman,

Thanks.

This has been a great first-hand learning experience for me.

Until you actually go out there and experience it all for yourself, there's no true way to gauge it all properly.

But again, it surely didn't help matters that he threw me the curve ball by deciding to do the trap-out after he agreed on the cut-out initially.

But no excuses - no excuses.

.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Pat,
You are doing a very fine job and I realize that "hands on" experience is the only REAL way to learn.
Mistakes are meant to happen... that's how we learn.
You have to totaly switch gears when you go from a cut out to trap out!
I just came back from a trap out install myself. Got really soaked with rain, right to the bone. Not fun.
I saw first hand today the results from a crop spray.... the bee carnage was there by the thousands. Again, not fun.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Mr.Beeman said:


> I saw first hand today the results from a crop spray.... the bee carnage was there by the thousands. Again, not fun.


What exactly did you see regarding the carnage from the spraying? Was it related to bees of the trap-out you installed?


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

mr.beeman said:


> try some #8 hardware cloth (with the 1/8" squares) for your cone. It will not sag and like stated before upward angle so the deceased bees roll back.



*check mark in that box !!!!*

.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

The home I trapped out today had literally thousands of dead and dying bees upon my arrival. This was why the customer called me to do the trap out. The bees swarmed there five days ago and found an immediate entrance into the home. Two days later a local farmer sprayed his fields, that day THOUSANDS of dead foragers lay on the ground...... dead and dying.

SAD


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

As I've gotten older I've come to realize this isn't a liberal/conservative issue.

It's right vs wrong.

There are too many things we are doing as humans that are just flat-out stupid and wrong - - especially when you weigh the long-term consequences.

.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I realize that all that is born cannot live, but we (humans) are polluting mother earth at an extraordinary rate. The EPA just fines, most times WILL NOT shut down polluting industries and lines their wallets.
Ok ... off my soapbox.


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## gkervitsky (Nov 20, 2008)

You might want to try and access this file that I have saved on trapping on a yahoo group. Let me know if you cannot access it. I use aluminum window screen for my trap cones. And always have a roll of it and a slap-type stapler with me. I never use caulk...it can be chewed, its messy, and difficult to control and remove. Steel wool pushed with a hive tool can go anywhere that caulk can go and its more effective at thwarting their passage.

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QEkmUP...4fwx/1 KERVITSKY -- FERAL TRAPPING PHOTOS.pdf


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Thanks so much for the info. I will definitely take it in. 

Oh yes, and as you mentioned earlier in the thread, once I had the trap-out started, a few bees got inside the man's business through an electrical outlet. He sealed it better and they stopped.

Uh oh - I just tried to click onto your link and it said NOT FOUND.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

*UPDATE!!!!*

I went back today (8-15-12) and fixed some holes they had eaten through AND I replaced the old screen cone with a pre-made #8 hardware cloth cone I had ready to mount over the old hole. 

The bees, as you all can see, are building comb inside the top bar hive. Thank goodness for window viewers on these hives.

Here's the video:







*Here are the photos:*


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## Goldprospector (May 17, 2012)

I guess I am confused, I thought you need to have the bees travel "Through" your hive...?
They just go in that one instead of flying off? Nice!


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

You can do it either-or.

I'm doing it without brood/eggs already in my hive, so that's REALLY living dangerously. I did have some old comb I tie-wrapped
to one of the top bars, though. And hopefully that will start them building straight, as well.

But yes, I was shocked at how much activity is in my top bar hive. I hope the queen prances on in there too.

By the way, if I have to get a new queen for a bunch of bees building in my hive, will they accept her immediately
or do I have to let them eat a candy plug out of a queen cage?

I better figure it out fast before they have a laying-worker situation going on. It's my understanding that they
don't accept a queen as well once the laying-worker syndrome starts to happen? I could be way off on that.

I'm sure there's nothing set in concrete with all of that type of stuff - just things may be more or less likely to happen.....or not happen.

.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

I haven't been able to make it back out to the trap-out since my last update because of the distance. The owner of the building sent me photos that showed the bees were still occupying the trap hive (good thing, of course), but that they had eaten a new hole at the bottom through the silicone caulk. By the way, is that a pollen stain or are they robbing honey from the old hive?

I THOUGHT BEES DON'T EAT THROUGH SILICONE CAULK !!!!!!!!

Who keeps spreading that meme?

By the way, I will be stuffing that hole with steel wool, then an atomic bomb, then caulk. I may even use gorilla tape at some point. Any suggestions?

I will be going out to the the hive in the next few days to do repairs and switch-out bait hives.

These photos are from the building owner:


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

Having done many trapouts, I do want to suggest you bring some larva back with you. You want to give them a reason to "give up" trying to get back in. I find that bringing donor eggs and larva helps dramatically in accepting the new hive and the bees give up sometimes the same day in trying to get back in. That will dramatically cut down on their eating through the caulk. Also, I point the cone down. Bees will tend to climb up a structure, but not usually down. Though I have had a cone clog, I think it's more of a problem having the bees find the end of the cone and getting back in. I only had one cone clog up in the past.

The other benefit of donor eggs is you get a queen from your known stock. So, if you're worried about AHB's, by providing your own larva and eggs, you dramatically reduce the chance that your queen will be AHB. They will raise the new queen for you.

As far as robbing: Most bees live 6 weeks. I usually run my trapout for 6 weeks, so the majority of the bees in my "donor" hive weren't a part of the original hive. Also, the new queen should have her own scent, so when you take the cone off, the scent in the old hive is different, and they'll rob it. You probably won't need to give them any honey to start the robbing. Unfortunately, with hive beetles, 6 weeks weakens the old hive far enough that the hive beetles start tearing up the comb. I now do a smell check. If I smell hive beetle damage, I'll pull the cone. There will be a "war" at the old hive, and some bees will die, but the new hive will overtake them, and clean out the old honey. At that point, I use spray foam, then I'll caulk hardware cloth onto the hole, both sides if I can get it, and caulk with sanded grout caulk in a masonry application.

also, I use aluminum tape. Sticks to everything, bees don't chew it, and it rarely leaves a residue.

Rob
www.mongrelbees.com


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

I know most of you out there are reading this thread just to laugh at all my rookie mistakes and whatnot.

Anyhow, here's another update from my trip out there today.

I patched up the holes they had eaten through today with a product that a very friendly Home Depot worker tracked-down for me as we were pondering what to use that bees wouldn't eat through. 

Here's the product:

It's called Great Stuff by Dow. It's a foam sealant specifically made for insects, including bees:










http://greatstuff.dow.com/why-use-great-stuff/pest-control/

So we'll see how that works.

The bees were a lot more docile today - probably because I wasn't doing major destruction and crushing bees behind cone mounts, etc. They also are digging their new home and were too busy to pay much attention to me.

Also, I replaced the original trap-out hive with a jalopy I slapped together a while back when I found some spare wood laying around. I had to slap that tarp roof on it because I left the roof somewhere else. It'll work though, and already sealed tight with a staple gun for moving the bees later.

Here is a video and some photos:

GET A LOAD OF ALL THAT SEALANT, CAULK, ETC !!!!.......................WHAT A MESS THAT'S ACCUMULATING !!!

And yes, they took to the new trap-hive immediately. The original hive is in my backyard at the moment where I need to find out if - by chance - there's a queen in their midst. I'll probably have to order a queen however.

*(VIDEO): *


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

Here's their (the first trap-out batch) new home in my backyard:

















.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

RobWok said:


> Having done many trapouts, I do want to suggest you bring some larva back with you. You want to give them a reason to "give up" trying to get back in. I find that bringing donor eggs and larva helps dramatically in accepting the new hive and the bees give up sometimes the same day in trying to get back in. That will dramatically cut down on their eating through the caulk.
> Rob
> www.mongrelbees.com


Rob, thanks.

I didn't have any access to donor eggs. I don't have any existing hives. Also, I'm not buddy-buddy enough with any local keepers who would just give some of their brood/eggs with no benefit for them. 

But yes, I agree - eggs/brood would have made this go much better.

.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

Here's the culmination of the trap-out I did in Apopka, FL. 

I brought the 2nd bait-hive home and opened the top so they could fly to the original hive. I also took out many of the top bars together which had a lot of bees building comb on them and transferred them to the blue top bar hive. They were fanning at the entrance, so hopefully the 2nd bait hive contained the queen. 

So what do you all think? Are the bees fanning because the queen is inside? Does that mean that's the case 100% of the time?

(About to post video)

.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

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