# Nucs versus Packages?



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Nucs will have drawn comb, which is a big plus for some that do not have a store of drawn combs to start a package out on.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I'd go with a Nuc as well. Established queen, easier to deal with, ready to go.


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

Try to find a supplier who supplies true nucs. That is a nuc with a queen that has been resident with those bees in that nuc.
If you can find "over-wintered" nucs that is the best.

Some make up nucs on Monday with some bees and drop a queen in. On Friday they sell it as a nuc. These are rip offs because the queen will be superceded just like most packages.


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## Major (Dec 31, 2012)

I agree with nucs are an easier and better way to start because of drawn comb and what should be established, acquainted bees. But if numbers are all you are wanting to increase and you are worried about getting honey this first year you can get more packages for the money. My first couple of years all I did was packages and I didn't have a very high survival rate but that could have been rookie mistakes. One plus of packages over nucs is you are starting fresh on new comb. Most honeybee disease is in the comb and when you buy nucs you are hoping they are disease free but ask questions because you don't want to introduce something bad into your bee yard. Maybe that sounds like I am pro package I'm not I like nucs but just giving you something to think about with fresh wax and clean slate.
Major


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

How much do you want to spend? You should be able to expand from 3-20 just by expanding those overwintered hives, taking splits from them and adding queens.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Try a few of each and split the hives you have you should learn a lot that way.
I bought packages just to try them they do build fast if you pour the feed to them.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Nucs are best because there's brood in all stages and young bees are emerging. No crisis caused by a shortage of nurse bees, which is one of the major hurdles that package bees have to overcome.


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## Whitetail (Feb 3, 2011)

I agree with Michael P. Nucs are ahead of the ball game. They have drawn comb (which takes resources to build), brood in all stages (which require resources to raise), and honey and pollen stores(which take time and energy to gather.) They cost a bit more, but are superior.


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

Packages seem to have gone down hill some in the last few years, now they seem to almost always supercede , which sets them back that much farther behind a Nuc. A well established nuc will out perform a nuc-age (a thrown together nuc )


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## curios1 (Jul 2, 2012)

split your 3 hives. there you have 6. buy 6 nucs and you have 12. buy 6 packages you will have 18. and im pretty sure you will get at least 2 swarms. CATCH THEM. shazam you have 20 and coverd all bases. and then you can tell us whats best. i caught a swarm thats how i started. then i bought a nuc. this year i want to buy some packages ,just to find out for myself.


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

Split and buy queens.


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## Eyeshooter (Mar 8, 2008)

I believe the saying that all beekeeping is local, which for my location means it makes great sense to buy overwintered nucs from a reputable breeder. Mike's point about various growth phases and nurse bees proves true to me as the nucs tend to explode about a month after hiving them. To minimize swarming, I then take frames, add a queen and make another nuc for the next season. Now I have a hive AND a nuc–all with bees proven to overwinter. Makes economical sense plus I know some of the production and treatment history, as well.

John


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## MT Don (Mar 1, 2012)

Major said:


> I agree with nucs are an easier and better way to start because of drawn comb and what should be established, acquainted bees. But if numbers are all you are wanting to increase and you are worried about getting honey this first year you can get more packages for the money. My first couple of years all I did was packages and I didn't have a very high survival rate but that could have been rookie mistakes. One plus of packages over nucs is you are starting fresh on new comb. Most honeybee disease is in the comb and when you buy nucs you are hoping they are disease free but ask questions because you don't want to introduce something bad into your bee yard. Maybe that sounds like I am pro package I'm not I like nucs but just giving you something to think about with fresh wax and clean slate.
> Major


You also have control over the type and condition of the frames involved.


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

In 1962, I was in your situation. I ordered what is probably called Old World Carniolans nowadays, NOT the modern New World Carniolans, the former swarmed more than any other race at the time, very hard to control them. The New World Carniolans no longer have that prodigious swarming tendency. I was able to increase in one summer from 3 hives to 18 just by splitting and their natural swarming tendency. Am suggesting that since there are some queen breeders that seem to be offering lately that old Carniolan stock, (not sure if they still have that "awful" swarming tendency) that you might try them. You can always switch back to the New World Carniolans or some other race when you no longer need the swarms. OMTCW


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

Nucs are a more "secure" way to start - less chance of absconding, supercedure, faster buildup due to presence of brood, etc. That said, large packages hived into drawn comb can expand almost as fast. Nucs seem to have a bit of inertia to overcome - they have adapted to life on five frames, and it takes them a while to realize they have more space and start expanding. Packages, with enough feed, draw comb like gangbusters.

Packages are also a bit more standardized than nucs. A 3# package will have three pounds of bees. A five-frame nuc will have five frames, but might be jammed with bees or have only enough to cover two frames. 

My choice would be to use packages to repopulate deadouts (or any hive with drawn comb) and nucs/splits to establish new hives on foundation.


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## curios1 (Jul 2, 2012)

GOOD LORD there you have it. almost 50 ways to have bees. and we are just getting started.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

17 Packages $1615.00
17 Nucs $ 2210.00

$600.00 difference to end up with the exact same thing....enough said.


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## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

bluegrass said:


> 17 Packages $1615.00
> 17 Nucs $ 2210.00
> 
> $600.00 difference to end up with the exact same thing....enough said.


 :scratch:


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## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

Actually 1 5 frame nuc can be split into 2 hives so you would only need 10 nucs to make 20 new hives. Also I WOULDN'T by all the nucs from the same yard. Better to get a mix of genetics up in there.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

bhfury said:


> :scratch:


Really! BG, you honestly think that if you install a package on May 1, and a nuc on May 1, that you have exactly the same thing? 

When are you delivering the packages this year?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Speaking of dogs with a different bark. 

Packages are like swarms. Splits are like old hives. 

Both can bark but they are surely not the same dog. 

*Package bees have the mentality of a Pitbull compared to splits which are like emaciated chihuahuas.*

Now that ought to raise the hair on the backs of a couple of Short haired beekeepers!



Actually a cross breed is probably the best. 

My best year was when I dumped 750 2 lb packages on top on 2 frames of brood 15 years back. Go figure? :scratch:


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

THere were more bees in the two frames of brood probably than the two pound package and they were time release. I agree that is a good way to go but a little complicated for the target audience here to pull off. But packages and nucs being equal is just plain silly. I will take nucs every time I have a choice and money is not hugely different.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> Really! BG, you honestly think that if you install a package on May 1, and a nuc on May 1, that you have exactly the same thing?
> 
> When are you delivering the packages this year?


When was the last time you bought and installed one 

You may have mis-understood my response so I will clarify. The OP is talking about buying Packages V Nucs to expand from 3 hive to 20 hives. He is also near Sacramento CA which is a mild climate compared to here and the area is full of citrus and nut groves. Putting my self in his situation, in his location.. I would spend the 600.00 difference on a honey extractor and go with the packages. 

In your friendly jab you didn't mention that I also sell nucs..... If a customer asks I still give the same response, "packages are the better value" even though I make more money off of a nuc. I have run both side by side and nucs tend to have more variables. Not everybody holds their product to the same standard as you, and most nucs are not overwintered, but are usually splits with a new queen a few days before the customer picks them up. 

My packages are always available the 1st week of May. I would encourage you to visit the for sale section and buy a few nucs from other people and compare them to the ones you sell. If you want to give a package a try I will trade you a couple. 

BTW the AMM hive is still going well... I will get you a split this spring.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

It depends on where ya get them from. I helped a guy install 80 pkgs into 5 frame nuke boxes then he sold them as nukes. Let the buyer beware.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I agree with Michael Palmer, because he is Michael Palmer, the guy that makes his living, and apparently a good one, from bees. An over wintered nuc is a beautiful thing to me. The brood is there, the queen has been accepted, and they are a functioning colony. I purchased three packages two summers back, and all three superceded their queen that same summer. 

I agree with Mac that the nuc buyer needs to comprehend, "caveat vendor." I purchased three "nucs" last summer, only to find out that the queens were added to the splits two days before I picked up the bees. This beekeeper didn't know the difference between a split and a nuc. It was then early June, and I needed the bees so I accepted them. This spring I am receiving a nuc from and old established apiary, and I can't wait to see what an over wintered nuc will accomplish in a year.


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## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

Both methods work. I got my first hive in June from a NUC. At the end of Aug. it was into 2 deeps and I pulled 2 frames of brood and one frame of honey to make 2 5 frame NUCs with purchased queens. 2 months later the NUCs were in double deeps and the donor hive was back up to full strength. April 6 I am picking up package bees to start 2 more hives, and I have done a hive rescue so it it makes it through the winter I will end up with 6 hives. This is my first winter as a beekeeper and I consider myself pretty lucky. I went with local bees, the BeeWeaver Navasota facility is 1.5 hour drive and I am very happy with them. Here is a short video of 2 of my foundationsless frames from my first hive.
http://youtu.be/3_uFntBZDWU


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Really! BG, you honestly think that if you install a package on May 1, and a nuc on May 1, that you have exactly the same thing?


The person you quoted confused me. I think you meant to quote Bluegrass.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

lazy shooter said:


> I agree with Michael Palmer, because he is Michael Palmer, the guy that makes his living, and apparently a good one, from bees.


Ah yes... But lets shift gears a little and talk about actual value.

On average a nuc will cost 125-130.00 each VS a package that costs 95.00 average. So using the scenario above where the OP wants to expand by 17 hives by purchasing one or the other there is an approx cost difference of $600.00

What are the benefits of a nuc?
#1. hopefully an accepted queen, which frequently is not the case. 
#2. Brood in all stages.
#3. about a 3-4 week head start on a package. 
#4. Better chance of survival the first winter. 

The down sides of a Nuc:
#1 All I have purchased have almost always been full of SHB
#2 If not caged the queens frequently get injured on the trip home and superseded.
#3 Frames and wax in nuc has an unknown treatment history.
#4 No guarantee that the queen isn't 3 years old. 

Up side of Packages:
#1 Cannot be produced by an amateur.
#2 Producers usually produce 20-50 K packages per season and know what they are doing. 
#3 Queens are reared by people who do 1000s per season and are always first year queens
#4 Cheaper than Nucs
#5 They are produced to mimic the Natural reproduction of a colony.... Full combs never walk out of a colony and make a home somewhere else. 
#6 Bees are of the appropriate age to draw comb and rear brood.

Down side to Packages:
Insert what ever misinformation you like here 

Now lets look at the cost difference in relation to what you end up with. You are paying 30.00 more for what? Okay so some package queens fail, so do some Nuc queens, There is a far smaller risk of disease with a Package because you don't have the unknown combs and brood present. A Nuc has a few week head start on a Package, but in northern areas you can buy a package a few weeks before a Nuc is even available. I have had both Packages and Nucs produce honey the first year. I will agree that a Nuc has a slightly better chance of survival the first season, but not enough to justify the 30.00 extra. 

For the extra 600.00 the OP could buy an additional 6 packages and there is no way that 17 Nucs would have a better survival rate than 23 Package started hives. 

Mike Palmer could verify, but I don't think he has any experience with Package bees, or not any in recent history. If the price was the same and the Nucs were coming from MP, I would buy the Nucs all day long , But that isn't the case. 

And one last thing to consider: In Europe they don't have access to package bees and they pay E 400.00 for a Nuc. Package bees keep Beekeeping semi-affordable for many hobby keepers in this country, whether they use them or not


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

I would vote Nucs. What value would you put on drawn comb? I put a lot!!! And when comparing a $95 package to a $125 nuc you are saving $10 by not buying frames (not to mention they are drawn and full of brood, pollen, and honey) That puts the price difference down to $20 each. Now figure a lot of the people I know that buy packages are frantically looking for a queen in late April-May because theirs is a dud or has been superseded. (Yes, some package suppliers are better then others) So there you are shelling out $20 bucks for a queen. Your $95 package has now cost you $125 and you have missed the honey flow, because your dud queen didn't build up. Some sell nucs for as little as $110!!! I know, what a deal!!! 

I agree it all depends on where you get the nucs and packages from. Queens bought in the spring for nucs should be laying for weeks before they are sold, not days!!! Queens caged in packages have layed for 4 to 6 days (if that) before they are shoved in a package and shipped across the country.

I keep a lot of the nucs I produce for personal use and I sometimes split them in early May!  Split a package in early May? Not in Ohio.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> Down side to Packages:
> Insert what ever misinformation you like here


You list down side for purchasing a nuc as though it came from a smuck but you seem to think that can't happen with a package.:scratch:

Why do you assume an amateur cannot sell a package?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Why do you assume an amateur cannot sell a package?


Can't Produce a Package. It isn't an assumption... Try and find a package produced by a backyard beekeeper? Ask for your Nuc suppliers USDA health inspection cert. I can provide one for every package I sell. Some nuc producers might be able to provide it, but many are not even inspected.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> Can't Produce a Package. It isn't an assumption... Try and find a package produced by a backyard beekeeper?


A backyard beek cannot shake 3 pounds of bees in a box and put a queen in it?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Ace:
The initial investment to sell packages is fairly high. Where do you think they get the cans of HFCS? They buy the HFCS by the tractor trailer load and run it through a canning facility on site. 
So on top of operating 1000s of hives, they need to be able to raise queens and have them mated when they need them. They have to have a fully functional cannery. A fully functional woodworking operation to build the packages and make the queen cages etc... and they do it by the 1000s. many of the producers are putting out 20-50 K packages per year.

I guess you could shake 3 # of bees into a used cage and put a can of tomato soup in it... but why do that for 90 bucks when somebody will pay you 125 for a crappy nuc


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I am not saying that they both don't have their place. Just that Value for Value the package is a better value.... A nuc is the only real way for a hobby beek/sideliner to make any money selling bees. To produce packages you need to be located in a location that is suitable for it and be set up to do so. 

Not everybody wants to buy bees from a commercial operation, some people like meeting face to face with the producer, seeing their hives and seeing how they do things... That might be worth the extra money to somebody... but the other advertised benefits of a Nuc generally are not true due to variability of the product... There is no definition of what is a sale worthy nuc, yet the prices are pretty consistent. 

MP said that a package installed on May 1st and a nuc installed on may 1st isn't the same and with that I will agree... But in his area it is unlikely you could get a nuc on may 1st anyway... may 15th is more like it... I can install a package the first week of April if I like, and it will likely be farther along than the nuc on May 1st... providing a person could get one.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Think the NUC is going to outperform the package. One would have to buy the NUC from a reputable supplier and get a young queen(last years or a purchased mated queen) and healthy bees, May well be getting more bees with NUC.

First eggs I saw with a package on blank foundation was the eighth day. No emerging bees then until 28th if the package arrived May 1.

The NUC will have emerging bees on May 15, so it has a two week jump.

I started a NUC on May 18 last year with a purchased mated queen and it became four deeps and a medium. Harvested one deep super and one medium for 80lbs of honey. Did no sugar syrup feeding. And by fall it was boiling with bees.

To get a package to achieve the same and from my experience 80 lbs is doable, one would have to feed sugar syrup for a couple of months and then be concerned about enough winter stores, so some more sugar likely.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The nuc's I bought had emerging bees from day one. A true nuc should have brood, no?


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## Eyeshooter (Mar 8, 2008)

bluegrass said:


> On average a nuc will cost 125-130.00 each VS a package that costs 95.00 average. So using the scenario above where the OP wants to expand by 17 hives by purchasing one or the other there is an approx cost difference of $600.00


As I mentioned earlier, by taking frames to help control swarming, by mid-summer the nucs I buy have become a hive AND a nuc. In essence, I now have a free hive full of bees as the nuc I create replaces the one I bought. I feel quite confident saying 95% of the packages available will not let me do the same. 

I absolutely agree with you, Bluegrass, that one has to be very careful from whom they purchase their nucs. I happen to be fortunate enough to be able to make a 5 hour round trip and get mine from MP. I always feel it is worth the time and effort to establish a relationship with a supplier who values his/her reputation and I'm happy to take the trip to buy a product I trust, whether it's bees, nursery stock etc. Yes, there is a cost to the trip but I leave at 4:30AM and after a nice chat with Mike, I'm home by 10:30-11.

In short, if you care about the quality of your apiary, make the effort to find the best breeders in your area and support them. For me, nucs are a win-win every time.

John


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

bluegrass said:


> On average a nuc will cost 125-130.00 each VS a package that costs 95.00 average.


In Wyoming:
3# Package Bees = $94
5-frame nuc = $160


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Bluegrass... I will insert one down side to package vrs nucs. In a package you get a wire cage you can throw away. In a nuc you get either a reusable nuc for a swarm box or splits, (in my nucs you get a box jointed, detachable bottom board, feeder top, wooden nuc,) or, you get a cardboard nuc that can be reused to split a hive.

You made a very good cost/benefit analysis, (Very good). but, at the very least, the value of the nuc should be included, and subtracted from the difference quoted.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Acebird said:


> The nuc's I bought had emerging bees from day one. A true nuc should have brood, no?


Acebird, you are right. A good nuc will have one frame of chocolate brood, giving you emerging bees in one to five days. This is what makes the nuc expand rapidly.

cchoganjr


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Cleo when you sell nucs do you include the box, top and bottom? I include the frames in mine, but the box is 20.00 extra. I thought that was pretty standard. 

On the cage... there is actually a deposit on it that is refundable if you get it back to your supplier.


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## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

Plus nucs come with drawn comb.


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## Major (Dec 31, 2012)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> A good nuc will have one frame of chocolate brood, giving you emerging bees in one to five days. This is what makes the nuc expand rapidly.
> 
> cchoganjr


Good is a key word and I agree with you very much Cleo about a good nuc has a frame of emerging brood. I may be wrong about this but I read somewhere that a frame of capped brood is equivalent to about 3 pounds of bees once they hatch. I guess the main thing beekeepers, new or old who buy nucs need to make sure they are looking before they buy and asking questions. A good nuc is what everyone wants but like so many others have said sometimes people just throw something together with a queen and call it a nuc. I have bought a nuc before as a rookie beekeeper didn't know exactly what to ask or look for and got very old dark comb and about half wax and half plastic foundation. Good nucs are a great value if that's what they are, I've made up nucs and overwintered them and that next spring they were fantastic hives. Ask questions and do your homework and buy a good nuc, if a person sells good nucs he will be in business a long time if he sells garbage he won't be in business long honesty and integrity go a long way in the beekeeping community. 
Major


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Major said:


> Good is a key word and I agree with you very much Cleo about a good nuc has a frame of emerging brood. I may be wrong about this but I read somewhere that a frame of capped brood is equivalent to about 3 pounds of bees once they hatch. r


I like word problems .
A worker bee weighs about 90 mg. There are exactly 6600 cells per deep frame of commercially produced foundation.
So there are 11 bees per gram and 454 grams per lb. So 5044 bees per lb x 3 lbs is 15133 bees in a 3 lb package. 

So a deep of brood is just over 1/3 of a three lb package.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

bluegrass.... Actually I sell a variety of ways, but first, keep in mind that I am a small peanut in the world of nucs. I only program to sell 100 each year. I am almost sold out for this year. I think I only have 5 more available.

If I sell a nuc, yes, the nuc will have 2 or 3 frames of brood, two additional frames of bees, honey, pollen, new queen already laying, and the nuc is a box jointed nuc, with detachable bottom board, and top. I also sell transfers, where I transfer 5 frames into customer equipment. I also sell 5 frame nucs in 10 frame equipment. In this case the customer gets the 5 nuc frames, plus 5 additional frames with foundation. All 10 frame equipment, including bottom board, deep brood chamber, inner cover, top.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that there was a refundable deposit on the wire cages. Obviously, I haven't bought any packages in years and years, but I didn't think Kelly gave anything back for the cage. I will have to check on this just for info.

Here is a photo of what the nucs look like.









Here is a photo of the Nucs on the stands, waiting for customer pick-up.









This photo shows 5 and 10 frame nucs waiting for customer pick-up.









cchoganjr


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Cleo, what are the stands made from? Also, are they on the stands to be at a working height or for some other reason?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Major... After a Nuc seller has been in business for a few years, his/her customers will get virtually new frames because I have to replace the 5 frames I took out for the Nuc with 5 new frames with foundation in the brood stock. And you are right, a GOOD Nuc seller will stay in business because he/she sells a quality product. Fly-by-Nights will drop by the wayside.

Bluegrass...I can't do math. You got me there.

Adrian Quiney WI...Those stands are the plastic tubs that cattle mineral comes in, from Southern States. They are free for the taking. Yes they are selected because they are at a comfortable height for the Nucs, and they are free. The tubs will support perhaps 2 deep and 1 shallow, but not much more. They would not be good for honey hive stands where you have several boxes. My brood stock is on metal pipe stands, like these two photos.

















cchoganjr


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## curios1 (Jul 2, 2012)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Major... After a Nuc seller has been in business for a few years, his/her customers will get virtually new frames because I have to replace the 5 frames I took out for the Nuc with 5 new frames with foundation in the brood stock. And you are right, a GOOD Nuc seller will stay in business because he/she sells a quality product. Fly-by-Nights will drop by the wayside.
> 
> Bluegrass...I can't do math. You got me there.
> 
> ...


nice !


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## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

Purchased 1 nuc and 1 package last May. Nuc came with a good supply of mites with the brood.. could not control...didn't last the year...package is going strong...
Mark another one up for nuc disadvantage: 1 lost hive -$130


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

oldforte....Couldn't you also get mites with your package bees? I would chalk that one up to the supplier, rather than nuc vrs package. If your nuc supplier is selling nucs with heavy mite loads, he/she won't be selling nucs very long. People will not come back, and the word will get out. Same with packages.

Ever get a package that contains a queen with the bees, and one in the cage. It happens, if they don't find the queen when making up the packages, or there were virgin queens as a result of swarming when they made up the packages. Which one survives, and does she get damaged.

Ever order more than one package and have one or more drift so badly that one or more could not survive. If so you are out the cost of a package.

There are advantages and disadvantages with both. Good conversation and analysis on this thread. Thanks everyone.

I recommend a buyer do his/her homework and choose whichever one will work best for you.

cchoganjr


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

I started beekeeping with both a package and then a nuc last year. I experienced some pros and cons with both.

The first package came with most of the bees drowned from too big holes in the syrup can. The seller didn't give me any problem and replaced the package but it meant I got a very late start (which really mattered last year with an early spring and then summer drought). The queen that came with the package was not much of a layer and by time I replaced her it might have been too late. The bees went into winter with a fairly small cluster and I am not sure they will make it (I already ordered a replacement package just in case).

The nuc I purchased for pickup in late summer and while they are great bees, it came with SHB and wax worms. The bees and I fought those but because of the SHB I had a hard time giving them pollen supplement (which they were low on and needed to raise brood) and they too went into winter with a small cluster. I am not sure this hive will make it through winter either but they seem to be doing well so far. Better than the package, but these bees were supposed to have great genetics so I am hoping they show it and survive.

This year, to avoid having the same issues with the package I found a producer in my state and will drive to pick up the bees.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

i always order packages if there not biting the cage or stinging which i never seen i let her out so she can lay as soon as possible.the times i let the bees release her they supersede her.i figure they think shes not a good egg layer caged too long..my two cents..


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Kelley may not give the deposit back, but their supplier probably would if they were willing to store them and give them back to them. The deposit is only 1.50 this year so for somebody who only buys a few packages it probably isn't worth returning them, but some of my larger customers return them and I take them back. The deposit is worked into the price so most people don't know it is there. 

If a customer contacts me within two weeks of getting a package and need a replacement queen I send them one. All the package producers I have worked with have sent extras with the load in case of failed queens. Except in 2010 because they didn't have extra's available. Last year I had nearly 30 queens left over...

Yes you can get mites with a package, but there isn't extra brood for a second generation of mites in with the package  Also there was a study in 97 I think about foul brood in Nucs... They were comparing why it wasn't a problem with package bees and their results indicated that the shaken out bees did not have enough spores in them to infect a newly established hive, where the brood from a nuc did.. I will try and find that source.

Cleo: Wish I had the opportunity to meet you while I was still in KY... Looks like I moved out about the time you joined the forum... Your reputation had preceded you though


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Colleen O. said:


> I had a hard time giving them pollen supplement (which they were low on and needed to raise brood) and they too went into winter with a small cluster.


I am wondering why they needed pollen if it was an established nuc. Is pollen a problem in your area at the time you got the nuc?


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Acebird said:


> I am wondering why they needed pollen if it was an established nuc. Is pollen a problem in your area at the time you got the nuc?


It was this past year with the major drought we had. The nuc had at least half a frame of pollen when I got it but there wasn't much new pollen coming in and they used it all. Every time I tried to give them supplement SHB would get into it and I had to remove it.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

You could probably buy a nuke in the middle of winter not so a package.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Bluegrass...Yes, I know about the reduction of mites in packages. And that is a plus for a package. AFB is also an increased possibility with the nucs, and reduced with packages. Guess the new beekeeper just needs to weigh their options and then decide which will work best for them.

I can see why the small beekeeper would not fool with the deposit,($1.50). But, if you were buying 500 packages that would be $750.00, and that is significant. I learn something every day. I didn't know there was a deposit on packages. I am just a very small peanut in the world of bees and Nucs. 

Colleen O ..... Small hive beetles are certainly a problem with Nucs, and to a lesser degree packages, (but, it is there also), only good management practices will take care of this problem. As for Wax worms, that is an indication that the nuc was not strong. You will not get wax worms unless your nuc/hive is weak. This would not be your fault, as the producer should not be splitting a hive that is weak enough to have a wax worm problem. You won't get wax worms with strong nucs or strong hives. It is amazing how many problems can be traced to weak hives. Keep your nucs/hives strong, don't give them excessive wax that they cannot guard.

As for supercedure.... Every year I get numerous calls from all over the country, about people seeing queen cells in nucs they have purchased. This is totally natural. If a nuc is made up in Georgia and a new queen placed in the nuc in a cage, then trucked to Illinois, the bees realize very quickly that they do not have a queen that is laying for them and they take matters into their own hands, and start queen cells to insure their survivability. They only have a limited number of days to do this until there are no viable eggs left to make a queen. If the new queen gets out of the cage and starts laying, the bees will take care of those queen cells before they emerge. Ideal situation is to have the queen laying before they are delivered to the customers. 

I think I joined the Forum in 2010. I retired from the Army in 1978 and I said I did not want anything to do with computers, but, in 1995 I realized that I should stay up with the World. I had not heard of the Forum until Kelly asked me to answer some questions for them. Glad I found it. Barry does a great job on this site. There are a World of GREAT people on this site. 

I learn something new, virtually every day. I learn something, even if a post is not totally accurate or filled with bias. As they say in Intelligence Gathering, "A lie, when you know it is a lie, is often just as valuable as the truth". (Don't know who made that comment).

If you, or anyone else are ever in Kentucky, around Exit 48 on Ky. I-65, Mammoth Cave Kentucky, you are welcome to contact me and I will be happy to show you my little operation, talk about bees.

Everybody, Have a great day.

cchoganjr


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Cleo: Just out of curiosity what is your price difference between a nuc where you transfer into the customer's box and one where they get the nuc box. 

Last year my nucs were 125.00 plus 20.00 for the box if they needed it. I only had one person take my boxes and pay the deposit on them, he has not returned them. Everybody else did a transfer like you mentioned above for the 125.00 price.

Thanks for the invitation, if I ever get back down that way I will contact you. 

No need to be good at math really.
A deep sheet of foundation is mechanically printed with a consistent cell size, so you just count the cells in a square inch (24) and multiply by the size of the sheet. A sheet is 16 3/4x8 so 134 sq inches per sheet. That gives you about 3300 which you multiply by 2 to account for both sides of a comb.

The weight of the average worker bee you can just ask your smart phone or google and I get an answer of 90 mg. So convert mg to grams and you get 11 bees per gram and grams to lbs to get 5044 bees per lb. So one deep frame of brood will hatch out about a lb of bees... Of course that does not take the honey along the edges into account.


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## Maddox65804 (Dec 29, 2011)

Major said:


> I guess the main thing beekeepers, new or old who buy nucs need to make sure they are looking before they buy and asking questions. A good nuc is what everyone wants but like so many others have said sometimes people just throw something together with a queen and call it a nuc. I have bought a nuc before as a rookie beekeeper didn't know exactly what to ask or look for and got very old dark comb and about half wax and half plastic foundation. Good nucs are a great value if that's what they are, .....Major


The vast differences in the quality of Nucs from different suppliers is the reason I started a thread last year: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?268893-f)-Is-there-a-standard-for-nucs

I found it very interesting the see the wide variety of ideas and ethics displayed by the various vendors. As Major said above, make sure to look carefully and ask questions BEFORE you buy. 

We are teaching our newbees how to ask questions this year before paying for the nuc. And which questions to ask. So many were cheated last year......very sad.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Maddox65804 said:


> The vast differences in the quality of Nucs from different suppliers is the reason I started a thread last year: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?268893-f)-Is-there-a-standard-for-nucs
> 
> I found it very interesting the see the wide variety of ideas and ethics displayed by the various vendors. As Major said above, make sure to look carefully and ask questions BEFORE you buy.
> 
> We are teaching our newbees how to ask questions this year before paying for the nuc. And which questions to ask. So many were cheated last year......very sad.


Often the "Cheated" isn't intentional. I will give an example of a situation I ran into once when buying nucs. I purchased from a reputable person and paid for them in the winter like is often the case. A couple of weeks before they were due to pick up I got a phone call that they would be ready on a specific date. The day of pickup I was not able to pick them up because of another obligation... About 3-4 days later I went to pick up the nucs and everything had been picked over by other customers. All that was left was a handful of really lousy nucs. 

At that point what do you do? If I had been able to pick up on time I would have had the pick of the litter. A nuc is a functional hive in every aspect except size. Just like the best beeks in the world will have some weak hives and some good hives and some really strong hives, the same is true for nucs. When making nucs up we estimate what we will have available to sell... once you collect someones money you really can't call them up and tell them that you can't give them what they ordered. 

In the ideal world money would not be collected until the customer picked up the order, but that isn't always possible and frequently if you want bees you have to pay ahead. 

The other issue for new beeks is often they are unwilling to actually inspect a nuc and even if they did, they would not know what they are looking at. They are just so happy to have a box with bees it in that they would not even see the flaws with their particular box.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> once you collect someones money you really can't call them up and tell them that you can't give them what they ordered.


You can if you can't give them what they ordered and you should.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

bluegrass...others..... Since I am basicall already sold out for the year, maybe beesource won't think I am advertising, so here are my prices. 

Nuc transfer..Normally, 3 frames brood, 2 frames of bees, pollen, honey, new queen, $95.00

5 frame nuc in a 5 frame wooden nuc, same bees as above, the nuc is a box jointed nuc, detachable bottom board and migratory top $125.00 I posted a photo of them somewhere on this site.

5 frame nuc in 10 frame equipment. Same bees as above, plus 10 frame bottom board, deep hive body, inner cover, top, $150.00

Please keep in mind that I am not making a living from my bees, and I am a small peanut compared to those who sell nucs. I am retired, and I enjoy helping people who want to get started in beekeeping. My prices are in line with the commercial sellers, perhaps just a little less for this area. I only sell 100 nucs each year, then I am done for the year. I do have a 100 % guarantee on my nucs, If the custormer is not happy I will refund, or replace, no questions asked. I know there are some on here who have bought from me over the years.

I make all the woodenware, except inner covers and frames. I don't use inner covers myself, so I buy those already assembled from Kelly Bee. The woodenware I sell is all new, painted white. The frames are virtually new, because they were likely put in the brood stock hives last year to replace frames I sold as nucs. A major portion of my wood is free as I have contacts with building contractors who give me cutoffs for a little honey. The remainder I buy from the Amish, and they pick my wood and give me a GREAT deal, and in return, I put 25-40 single chamber hives in their pumpkin patches.

This is how I am spending my retirement years. I go to a lot of schools, bee clubs, Ky State Parks, and put on bee demonstrations. I am at the end of my beekeeping, and I sure would like to see younger ones take it up.

Thanks for the math, Bluegrass. I could figure it out from your post, but I am just going to take it as true. If it wasn't true, you wouldn't post it. I enjoy your posts.

Hope this has been helpful to someone wanting to get into selling nucs. There is plenty of room out there for anyone who would like to get in the business. There is more money, easier, in selling bees, than selling honey. Keep three things in mind when selling nucs, 1. Quality. 2. Quality. 3. Quality.

cchoganjr


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Acebird said:


> You can if you can't give them what they ordered and you should.


Say you bought a nuc from me. How would you feel if you bought and paid for the nuc, and then come April when you could not find a replacement anywhere, I called and said that what I had was not good enough to sell and that I was refunding your money? The result is that I lost you as a customer... or there is a slightly better chance you would be fine with a weakish nuc and you would buy from me again if I just gave you what I had.

There are a few nuc producers who don't collect any money until the nuc is picked up. Mark Berninghausen I think is one of them... But then you run into a problem where it becomes first come, first serve and you risk offending somebody if you said you could give them one, but then they show up to pick it up a week late and you sold out.... It is a tricky business this bee selling. 

You are not always going to make everybody happy... some people will sing your praises up and down and you will always run into somebody who doesn't like the way things work out and no matter what you do to correct the situation... you lost them as a customer.

Cleo: You are giving those nucs away ... If you cancel all your current orders I will take all 100 of them and send you a certified check over night  Mine are 125.00 without a box, bottom or cover and I can't produce enough to meet demand.... mine all go to repeat customers and sell out 6-8 month ahead of time.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> The result is that I lost you as a customer... or there is a slightly better chance you would be fine with a weakish nuc and you would buy from me again if I just gave you what I had.


If you sell me a nuc that you know is weakish and don't tell me you are not only going to lose me as a customer you are going to lose anybody I come in contact with. If it is my decision, or a deal is struck between the two of us then you don't loose me as a customer and more than likely you will gain more from the positive relationship.

I am sure location makes a difference but my nuc supplier charges $70 and you supply the empty frames. He has been doing it for a long long time.


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## curios1 (Jul 2, 2012)

how about a quick run down on procedure,steps, and time frame for putting together and selling a proper nuc. for those of us who dont kno any better. just curios i am.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Bluegrass...I could not do that to my customers. I appreciate the offer, and would not need a certified check. I have never been stiffed on a bee sale. Most of my customers are repeats and someone who recommended me. I have never advertised and I am normally sold out by mid January and don't start making nucs until April.

You are absolutely correct. I and most others who put together quality nucs, can sell all they make, It is just a sideline for me. A good way to spend my retirement years, get more people into bees, meet some GREAT people, and I really enjoy the woodworking in the Winter. 

Kelly Bee Company got me started several years ago by sending people to me, after they sold out. They sell thousands and still sell out early. I can always tell when Kelly sells out. Unfortunately by that time, I am also. There is a big demand right now. Don't know how long the craze will last, but it has been with us for a while. Only a couple or three others in the area who sell nucs, and they only sell like 10-15 per year. I met with a young man last week from Scottsville, and he is seriously thinking big. I told him everything I knew about selling nucs. He already has his queen raising well underway. He is likely going to keep his day job, and expand a little at a time.

cchoganjr


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Cleo, I posted on another thread about a non profit asking me to whip out some nuc boxes for them. They said the local suppler was at $39 unassembled for finger joint boxes and $21 for rabbet jointed. I had to ask him twice. Figure a buck for foundation, one for frame and $30 for a queen he could almost buy nucs from you and be ahead of the game! 
Retired Army, that’s too bad….go Navy!
Back on subject the in laws got one package and one nuc, same store. Put them in two new hives second week of April. End of June the package had drawn two boxes, nuc only had 8 in the bottom box and the 2 frames from below trying to bait them up.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

The Ontario Bee Breeders Association have attempted to establish a standard. Some might find their definition and nuc buying guide helpful:

http://www.ontariobee.com/sites/ontariobee.com/files/document/Are-You-Buying-Nucs.pdf


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

minz... I know that is true, But, next year or next week you might find the results reversed. There are so many factors on which will be the best after 30 or 60 days or one year. There is certainly no one answer.

I get $30.00 for an empty 5 frame, box jointed nuc painted white. That is pretty standard for the area, except for assembly and paint. As I said, the way I can sell cheaper than some is I get most of my wood for free, well, almost free, I give them a jar or two of honey.

I guess our suppliers don't get as much around here as in other areas. I have heard of a company over near London, Ky that sells box jointed nucs for $20.00 unassembled. They say very nice nucs. I just looked up Kelly Bee Company, and they get$137.50 for a complete 5 frame wooden nuc with bees and Carniolian queen. I couldn't find that they sell just wood nucs. Better Bee gets, $30.95 for an assembled 5 frame wooden nuc, not painted.

Zhiv9... I just read the Ontario Bee Nuc Defination. It is good. 

I love the Navy, As a Company Commander in Vietnam in 1968, the New Jersey fired for me at Hue, and I regularily got fighters off the carriers in the Gulf, and I can never say enough about The USS Sanctuary and The USS Repose, hospital ships, that took care of the wounded. So I also say, Go Navy. Thank You Guys.

cchoganjr


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I am not bran new at this but if I were going to buy a nuc this spring I don’t know if I would want to pull apart a bunch of frames and look at it for fear of losing a bunch of field bees. I open up a hive here in the cold, wet spring they typically are coming at me in a hurry. About a month ago I popped a lid and had 10 stingers in my glove before I got the lid off. Not a real common issue but an issue all the same. 
How do you do a nuc inspection at the purchaser and not leave a lb. Of bees at his place to check the items listed by Zhive9?
Cleo, did all my time on an aircraft carrier. We got attacked by the most powerful navy on earth one night. Holy crap did we burn. I could not imagine what damage those guys could do to us if they were serious! I would bet you seen your share of incoming ‘friendly’.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

minz said:


> How do you do a nuc inspection at the purchaser and not leave a lb. Of bees at his place to check the items listed by Zhive9?


Quickly and carefully. Know your supplier and trust him a bit or open it up at his shop in the late afternoon so it goes dusk before you put it in your truck just like you would move a hive. There is really no way tell them to stay in the box.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I don't worry about the field bees. I will open and inspect a nuc any time of day. As long as it has plenty of brood, plenty of stores and plenty of hive bees any bees that are out in the field are at the end of their life expectancy anyway. There are plenty of bees in the nuc who are 21 days old the day after you pick it up...and they graduate to field bees.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

bluegrass said:


> I don't worry about the field bees. I will open and inspect a nuc any time of day


I agree. Most of my customers don't open them, so they get all the bees. I tell them if they are not happy when they get home, just let me know, I will replace or refund. I have never had a complaint. 

I close the nuc off with screen, before daylight, on day of pick-up in order to get all the bees but, if they want to open and inspect and you lose a few field bees, and 50 guard bees, it will not significantly weaken your nuc, if it was a good strong nuc.

minz.. Believe me, there is nothing friendly about incoming.

cchoganjr


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## ImaNewBeeToThis (Dec 27, 2012)

Just curios but why can't I buy a nuc and a package and remove the queen from the package and combine the two into 2 8 frames bodies?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

ImaNewBeeToThis... you could certainly do that, I wouldn't, but if you did , two things. 1. I wouldn't start with 2, 8 frame bodies. I would start with one and let them populate it, then add the second box. Unprotected comb or wax is not good. 2. If I wanted to go that route, I would contact the seller and get a queenless package and combine with the nuc. That way you don't wind up with an extra queen. Add additional boxes as required.

cchoganjr


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## ImaNewBeeToThis (Dec 27, 2012)

Sounds like a great idea, so why don't more people do this?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

its not cost effective to buy a nuc and package to make 1 colony. If you get the NUC and package at appropriate times and have good queens in both you can make a honey crop on both in same year.

NUCS always trump packages if built correctly.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Acebird said:


> You can if you can't give them what they ordered and you should.


Geeze,

I really really hate to agree with you ace but you are finally correct.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

ImaNewBeeToThis said:


> Just curios but why can't I buy a nuc and a package and remove the queen from the package and combine the two into 2 8 frames bodies?


By the time you pay for a package (minus a queen) plus a nuc, you likely have about $200 (likely more) invested in bees for just one hive. When you apply that to two hives, you probably have close to $450 for just bees for two hives. 

And if you were considering just populating *one *hive, you will be taking much higher risk than if you populated 2 hives. With two hives, you can borrow resources from one to diagnose and fix problems with the other. If you only have one, you are stuck.

:ws:


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## ImaNewBeeToThis (Dec 27, 2012)

Fair enough


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

ImaNewBeeToThis said:


> Sounds like a great idea, so why don't more people do this?


If not done properly the bees will fight and kill each other and you will end up with one very weak hive. Plus the cost as mentioned above. The fact that there is likely no benefit to doing so. Risk of swarming on you... etc.

Hive population is a delicate balance... All the bees have a job and need to be able to do that job. A nuc has all the nurse bees it needs to cover the amount of brood present. A package is specifically shaken to be mostly nurse bees because at a specific age they can draw comb and other bees cannot. You dump all those extra bees in with a nuc and they will likely think they are over populated and make swarm prep.

I never tried it so these are just my assumptions.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

ImaNewBeeToThis..... If you are going to buy a nuc and a package, you could likely find an overwinted established hive for that amount.

As someone new, I would go with two hives, likely one nuc and one package, learn all you can from the two, grow into beekeeping with your two, very different hives.

cchoganjr


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

There are two advantages of a nuc that I see as important for newbees. 1. It gives you essentially an active hive so there is less of a change of making a boo boo on day one. 2. It is more likely to be local than a package which I value highly.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Acebird said:


> It is more likely to be local than a package which I value highly.


Here we are back to knowing your source... I know plenty of folks who bring nucs north and sell them... They don't advertise that they are local nucs, but they also don't plainly state that they are not.

We have a guy locally who sells "local nucs" but he buys the queens heading up those nucs from CA. That isn't going to be a local nuc for long.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I'm overwintering six carnie "nucs" in double five frame medium boxes. The queens came from California, they are on small cell foundation, and they're chemical / treatment free, I'm not sure that they would be considered "local". ...


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## ImaNewBeeToThis (Dec 27, 2012)

Well I have walter Kelly next door to me so I'm going with their nucs.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

ImaNewBeeToThis.... I just noticed you are from Lexington. Your are only a little over 2 hours from me. (Exit 48 I-65 Mammoth Cave), If you would like, call me in early April and you are welcome to come down to my facility, and I will answer any questions you have, and show you my facility and how I do it. 

Anyone else is also welcome.

cchoganjr


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

ImaNewBeeToThis said:


> Just curios but why can't I buy a nuc and a package and remove the queen from the package and combine the two into 2 8 frames bodies?


If you have some drawn comb you can actually split a package into 2 colonies right off with an extra queen. It seems a waste of resources to put a nuc and a package into 2 8 frame bodies. Part of the joy is watching them grow into sucessful hives.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

ImaNewBeeToThis said:


> Well I have walter Kelly next door to me so I'm going with their nucs.


That must be a big door 

There are reputable people closer to Lexington than Clarkson. I would recommend Lewis Sutton in Lancaster KY. He is also a member on here, or you can google him at Sutton Honey Farms.


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