# Making Foundationless frames



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

You can buy frames for 70 cents a piece. Why would you make them for a dollar?


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

I would cut the space out of the bottom of each end board to allow the bees to traverse the frames without having to go all the way to the bottom or the top. IIRC, I cut 3/16" off each side prior to cutting to length. Cut one blade width, then shifted the fence for another 1/2 blade width.


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## Backyarder (Mar 25, 2014)

I was saying the same thing while changing the dado blade.
The only valid reason is because I wanted to.
The sanded cedar 2x4 for top bars was where the big cost is. 
I could get free scraps from work and a friend ar a local cabinet shop. Material cost would be glue and staples.
But then you factor in time spent building them and I would still be behind.

Main reason was just to do it.

Thanks, I think i will go back and make the extra cuts.


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## Sonoramic413 (Aug 10, 2013)

Those are nice!


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## HiveMind (Jul 6, 2010)

Yeah, nice work Backyarder! Love the big wedge. I've wanted a good excuse to make my own too. I'd get to play with lots of my woodworking tools! But it seems way too time consuming to be worth it. Fun project though.


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## crohlin (May 18, 2014)

Where can you buy full wedge foundationless frames for.70 each?


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

I went with grooved for popsicle sticks vs the wedge but yours look really nice too.. i agree with shaving the side bars a bit for about half of the height. I made a whole bunch from a single 2x10 x 8' which you can get for $10 at home depot.. I made the rest to fill out more than 5 boxes of 8 frame out of free 2x4's from craigslist. Everyones situation is different.. some have more time than money.


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Ross said:


> You can buy frames for 70 cents a piece. Why would you make them for a dollar?


70¢ where? I know Kelley sells them for about 83¢ each (per 100), but then you gotta pay shipping...


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

JakeDatc said:


> I went with grooved for popsicle sticks vs the wedge but yours look really nice too.. i agree with shaving the side bars a bit for about half of the height. I made a whole bunch from a single 2x10 x 8' which you can get for $10 at home depot.. I made the rest to fill out more than 5 boxes of 8 frame out of free 2x4's from craigslist. Everyones situation is different.. some have more time than money.


You should set your stapler depth so that staples are driven just flush or a tad beneath the wood. I like to go deeper than flush, then put a dab of glue on the staple afterwards, when I am not in a hurry.

Also, it looks like you are stapling the top bar down from the top... might wanna put a staple UNDER the ear, parallel and angled up into the top bar. This will help keep the top bar from pulling off the end bar (though I personally haven't seen such happening, and as I use titebond III, I doubt it ever will).


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## Backyarder (Mar 25, 2014)

Titebond III is my go to glue for anything that has to hold up.
I had better luck with brads than staples shooting side to side. 
I'm trying not to over build things, keep it quick and simple...as possible.
A few extra staples or brads is probably cheap insurance. 
Im going to add a super of these to a couple hives this weekend and if they work out great I will come up with a plan for more.

We have no experience, but we are learning. The one thing I did not want to do is hang all of our hopes on 1 or 2 hives. It was hard to decide what kind of hive we wanted. The obvious choice was one of each. Got a great deal on some straight and clear cypress and haven't stopped yet. 

Lanstroth (top and bottom entrance/sbb and solid
Top bar
Long Lang
(Maybe tackle a Warre next year)

Im up to 6 homemade hives and hope to add or make a few splits before winter. Doing a little of everything to see what we like managing and what is successful in or area. 1 purchased pkg of carniolans and the rest local swarms. My wife and i really like checking hives and working with bees together.


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Really, better luck with brads? I have only shot a handful of staples with my new HF stapler/nailer, but so far, not a single mis-driven staple. I have had many brads go wonky on me if they hit anything remotely hard, but usually just cut them off with my dremel then glue over the spot. I was driving my brads from the top of the top bar, but now that I have a stapler, I have switched to driving from the sides. Haven't had a top-nailed frame give way, and doubt they will, but logic dictates that it's a better method of securing based on where our forces are used lifting frames out.

Learning is what it's all about. I bought some, then made some, and then bought some cuz I was in a hurry to build and was building other wood things. I will probably build more of my own when this 100 is built and used up. I enjoy making them, getting it "just right". Haven't tried your beveled trick, I too have used popsicle sticks or scrap strips cut to fit the top bar groove.

Have fun!!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

F6Hawk said:


> 70¢ where? I know Kelley sells them for about 83¢ each (per 100), but then you gotta pay shipping...


Kelley's website is currently offering F style medium frames for 77 cents each in 1000 quantity lots. You _may _be able to get a better price with a larger order.
http://www.kelleybees.com/Shop/37/Hives-Components/Frames/4426/Medium-Frames

And Kelleys now offers free shipping on $200 orders


Mann Lake'sc lowest published bracket is at 72 cents per frame.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Sorry, not knocking your efforts at all. I build a lot of things that don't come near justifying my investment of time or shop equipment, just because I want to. I just buy wedge top bars and rip them at 45 degrees on the table saw. I built a little sled/push stick to do them. I can run one every 10-15 seconds. I buy mine from Dadant by the 1000 lot and pick up, so no shipping and no tax on ag use items. I don't bother breaking out the wedge anymore, just rip both sides. It's faster.


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## Backyarder (Mar 25, 2014)

No offense taken, I'm one of those people that has to try and build it myself. My first 100 frames were from brushy mountain. I get the "Why don't you just buy it?" About most of my hobbies. 

I like the push board. It looks safe, keeps hands away from the blade!


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

Wow! all those notches and everything. with titebond/staples, ya really dont need all that. On youtube theres a guy that has an easy frame to make. Look up Ryan Bekke. "Dont get no easier than this!" his favorite saying! lol.


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

I tried some of his stuff, Santa. Did NOT like how he cut the end bars with a router. That hurts like HECK on the fingers!!


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## Backyarder (Mar 25, 2014)

Bar #1 is a success!


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Backyarder said:


> Bar #1 is a success!


Looks good... Much better success than I had with the custom Kelley foundationless frames. I've just been taking the wedge on wax foundation frames and pinning it in the grove like the popsicle stick method.

The few I've tried, they did pretty good on.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

You can easily cut the end bars down to Hoffman style with a jointer (took me a year to remember I had one, even though I have to walk around it to get to the table saw!) Set for 1/8" cut and carefully push them part way through -- mark the fence so you know when to stop, or clamp a stop block on.

If you are ripping them from a 2x6 block as I do, you can cut the side before you split them, but I find it easier to drill the holes for the cross wires first, so I trim them down individually. Sort of a Zen thing, I think.

Nice frames, though.

You won't likely save any money doing them yourself, but it's a nice winter occupation.

Peter


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

The illustrated comb is honey and/or drone cell.


This is the classic problem with the much-hyped "foundationless" religion -- you are creating comb that cannot be used in a brood nest. Foundation generates all-purpose comb that does not preclude raising worker bees. Perhaps the foundationless promoters don't actually want to raise worker bees?


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## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

Then please explain how natural hives, TBH, Warre and any other hive functions.

The reason for the large cells is because the bees decided they needed bigger and are no longer forced into a single sized cell for the ENTIRE colony. My TBH has a comb made almost entirely of drone brood with some worker here and there. New comb however is being made in worker cell sizes. 

Bees will raise worker bees as they see fit, now they have a chance to raise some drones like they want to do naturally. Heck, you could even cull that frame with its almost all capped (drones) to help reduce mite levels.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Its a management issue. You must individually select and grade frames as to whether they can be used in the core brood. The whole impetus for the relentless promotion of "8-frame-medium-foundationless" is uniform interchangeability, yet at the most fundamental level, this is generating frames that are NOT interchangeable. This downside is not being disclosed by the promoters.

Think of this in terms of the economic principle of "opportunity cost". The frame is fabulous for storing honey (why the bees are building it). It can be pulled off and extracted in July, and then--- it must be stored unused until honey surplus is again available in April or May. It will be attacked by wax moths, or sit gathering dust.

Alternatively, a foundation-based frame can be extracted and returned to any location-- building a nuc, expanding the brood nest. It can have 2 or 3 cycles per year of use. So a foundation based frame has an economic return several times the foundationless single-purpose honey storage frame. This is "economic" not just in human dollar and cents sense, but efficient for the bee colony itself. In my region, frames can be drawn without the supplementation of syrup for only a limited period in each year -- consuming the couple weeks when frames are being completed with the production of limited-use special purpose comb is woefully inefficient.

As for TBH, I actually don't think they do "function" very well. Beyond the terrifying "cost" of crushing comb to retrieve honey, in my experience and observation they cast swarms in an unmanageable profusion (due likely to brood congestion inherent in the design), and the whole large trough represents a fixed "sunk" opportunity of wood, space and risk, while modular boxes can be moved and repurposed without restrictions.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Unless you crush/strain the frame.. they will rebuild it in whatever form they choose again. It has been said many times here that they will draw foundationless faster than foundation. 

how is the brood congested in a top bar anymore than a lang? if you need more space then you throw an empty bar in the brood area and they use it. people with langs and queen excluders congest brood more than that. 

where do you store your x number of drawn foundation frames? surely you don't keep your hives stacked 5-6 high all year round. 

You've stated your dislike of foundationless about a thousand times now.. you could save a lot of time and not click a foundationless thread. You just come off as a pompous know it all who won't accept anybody doing something different than yourself. Lighten up and step away from the keyboard. 

Edit: oo there is an ignore feature on this board. buh bye.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I am pleased to see someone post apparently well thought out information that runs contrary to a popular position: a lot of people are reluctant to buck the flow. Others sitting back, though they have had similar doubts might be encouraged to relate their experience. I think the guru phenomenon or appeal to entrenched popular authority can often be a detriment to open discussion.

I think I am experiencing a lot more drift toward increasing and scattered drone cells in the brood area. More so on my wax foundation than on plastic Some of it is 4 years old. In the spring it seems the bees will retrofit drone cells near the working brood area even though there may be dedicated or high percentage drone frames further out or in another part of the hive.

I used foundationless drone comb and culled for mite detection and control and it seems effective. 8 of 8 hives survived the winter. Personally though I find that scattered drone brood makes the frames harder to work when pulling or moving frames around. I have seen one commercial beek post that he strikes all drone brood seen with the hive tool.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Posting that opinion in a thread that is unrelated to any problems just to butt in shows me that he likes to hear himself talk. When someone takes every opportunity to add this opinion then it becomes pretty annoying. 

this in the Equipment forum... talking about the pieces of gear.. not about any philosophy or methods, especially when the opinion isn't asked for. 

OP built some nice frames, the bees drew out some pretty looking straight comb. JW can't appreciate that and has to make it negative. I guess some people would rather be that way instead of encouraging.


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## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

JWChesnut said:


> Its a management issue. You must individually select and grade frames as to whether they can be used in the core brood. The whole impetus for the relentless promotion of "8-frame-medium-foundationless" is uniform interchangeability, yet at the most fundamental level, this is generating frames that are NOT interchangeable. This downside is not being disclosed by the promoters.
> 
> Think of this in terms of the economic principle of "opportunity cost". The frame is fabulous for storing honey (why the bees are building it). It can be pulled off and extracted in July, and then--- it must be stored unused until honey surplus is again available in April or May. It will be attacked by wax moths, or sit gathering dust.
> 
> ...


Langs cast just as many swarms as a TBH, your point?

And the "cost" of crush and strain is relative... yes crushing and straining honey comb can lower your honey crop, but a 2:1 syrup feed for a couple weeks before the main flow can solve that problem quite rapidly.
As far as your other "issues" with TBH, give me a break. If I build all my hives using 1x10s with the correct angle that gives me 18" at the top, all my bars can be swapped as needed and I can pull one bar and place it another hive as needed. And those that keep Langs have just as much "fixed sunk opportunity of wood, space and risk" as TBH. The only difference is you spent 2-3 times as much as I have for your hives.

This post stinks of nothing more than someone trying to justify the $120+ per hive he's sunk into the idea of "perfect interchangeability"


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

JWChesnut said:


> It can be pulled off and extracted in July, and then--- it must be stored unused until honey surplus is again available in April or May. It will be attacked by wax moths, or sit gathering dust.


Wax moths have never touched my honey comb as long as brood hasn't been in it. Unless it's being asked, constantly raining on those that practice beekeeping differently than you gets quite annoying.


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