# pollen patties



## 1beechilo (Dec 12, 2007)

new to bees,

I would appreciate some input on making my own pollen patties. Earlier I read that from BjornBee, that I could use dried egg yolks. I was wondering why only the yolk and not the dried egg whites aslo. Could anyone please let me know the reason for this. Someone had previously asked, but the question was never answered.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

egg yolk is a good source of protein. in an extender pattie (a pollen pattie would only contain pollen) or pollen substitute pattie you are trying to balance the various amino acids (the building blocks of protein) to provide the bees with some minimum level of specific amino acids (arginine, + 9 others) typically using egg yolk, soyflour and brewers yeast.

I don't have a reference right here at hand but I would suspect that egg yolk also contain a fairly signifcant level of some specific amino acids that are lacking in some of the other protein sources.


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## 1beechilo (Dec 12, 2007)

*pollen patty*

thanks for the input. Now would you happen to know why they dont't include the whole dried egg in the formula. Let me see if i can find that link


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## ozzy (Feb 5, 2005)

When I took a course at OSU, Susan Coby just used pollen and sugar and a little sugar syrup to bind it together. If it works well for queen rearing, which is what she was doing, it will work for raising bees.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Up til now, many formulas were some well kept secret, or had ingredients that were added to keep the masses guessing.

Mannlake just recently started promoting and selling brewers yeast patties. I don't think they ever did before. Guess what the levels of amino acid levels and protein are? They are above the standard levels set and used in the industry. Protein above 40%, with amino acid profiles direct from the manufacturer well above those needed for bees.

So its not for protein or amino acids that all these other ingredients are added. I think some are added to set one maker apart from another, to add palatability, or to confuse the crap out of the masses who then go cross eyed and buy from someone rather than slush through the reasoning behind some of the ingredients.

Some ingredients have very practical application. Take canola oil. I will not vouch for the added benefits of this enzyme or that acid, or whatever it is they say it adds. But I will say that it makes the patties very soft. I never had a patty dry out when canola oil is used.

Brewers yeast has everything you need from a nutrition standpoint. Everything else is due to increasing palatability, or because someone wants to claim some special recipe. Many of these so called benefits of some of these extra added items, are from articles based on less than solid research, often using terms like "perhaps', "maybe", and "could".

I use brewers yeast as a base. And then add from there. Bees like many things added. A little vitamin C, a little salt, a little pollen, a little soy flour, a little egg yolk, etc. Add what you want. But start with the essential base product. And if you don't use egg yolks, its no big deal. Most of whats been seen over the years is fluff.


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## lake thompson honey (Feb 11, 2007)

does anyone know where to buy brewers yeast in texas?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

>So its not for protein or amino acids that all these other ingredients are added. I think some are added to set one maker apart from another, to add palatability, or to confuse the crap out of the masses who then go cross eyed and buy from someone rather than slush through the reasoning behind some of the ingredients.

Gee, not sure I want to respone to that.

>Some ingredients have very practical application. Take canola oil. I will not vouch for the added benefits of this enzyme or that acid, or whatever it is they say it adds. But I will say that it makes the patties very soft. I never had a patty dry out when canola oil is used.

To make the patty soft is not the reason I use it.

>Brewers yeast has everything you need from a nutrition standpoint. Everything else is due to increasing palatability

Not even close.

> And if you don't use egg yolks, its no big deal. Most of whats been seen over the years is fluff.

HA, Vitamin A in egg yolk, one of the most important vitamins in brood rearing. That what were talking about , I guess... NO guessing here.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

lake thompson honey ask:
does anyone know where to buy brewers yeast in texas?

tecumseh replies:
mann lake has a outlet at Alvin (not the chimpmuck). I buyer brewers yeast in small quantities at the local health food store.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Respond all you want Keith.

I use DeGroots standard for amino acid and proteins as outlined and used for over 50 years. If you have some better published standard, then post it.

DeGroots standard can be read here, as well as some basic information....

http://www.honeybee.com.au/Library/pollen/nutrition.html

I buy my brewers yeast from the same place MannLake gets theirs. It comes with a nutrition profiles, meeting EVERY amino acid requirement, and surpasses the level of protein needed by bees.

I figured you would come out and mention some small detail such as vitamin A. What a laugh. First, you have no clue whats in brewers yeast based on your comment. So anything beyond that comment is questionable to begin with. How do you know what to add if you don't even know whats in brewers yeast to begin with? (I guess you could be using some inferior product of brewers yeast however) Second, I would also disagree with vitamin A being "one of the most important". The various vitamin B's are more important than A. but again, if you don't know whats in your base, then the rest is moot. Up til now, the discussion was based on amino acid and protein. I find mentioning every mineral and vitamin a little overkill. Whats next...Barium, Boron, Iron, Niacin, etc, etc, etc.......

But tell me keith, what is the level of vitamin A in your patties? And can you also list the level of vitamin A that the bee industry calls for? And any published information and research stating the level required, with supporting claims, etc.? 

As for feeding pollen patties, its not rocket science. Feeding should be considered a temporary fix for a bad flow, a bad selected site, or for temporary brood increases needed for splits, etc. I don't expect my bees to live off the stuff for eternity. Its supplemental feeding. Its feeding to augment the pollen and natural feed the bees collect naturally. So debating some small detail such as some yet to be proved level such as vitamin A, is absurd.

Keith, your the classic case of the industry. your the first to claim this or that when it comes to pollen supplement feeding. You claim bees need this or that, with little research supported information, never really wanting to divulge information as to what goes into your product, and then always one of the first to bash someone else's comments, in some ""beat around the bush, but never really clear or helpful kind of way".

I would suggest that anyone reading this, should contact others like Mannlake and ask for amino acid levels and nutrition information BEFORE relying on comments from Keith in regards to what other people are doing, or what or where their products come from. We went down that road once before not long ago with Keith, and some can remember where that ended.

Yes, Keith, I can scan the bee mags and published information from over the years. I could list Vitamin C, salt, vitamin A, and probably 20 other suggested ingredients that have been the talk of the industry that someone felt was important in a bee supplement. You go knock yourself out, marketing your product. I'll be here mentioning actual nutritional analysis from manufacturers and backing up with research as much as I can with the minimal amounts out there.

For the average beekeeper reading this, who wants to supplement their bees diet for a host of reasons, (but not including year round feeding or migratory practices)..do yourself a favor....Don't get wrapped up in the hype!


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith: I have no clue why you chime in on subjects if you are not going to be any help. Bjorn is right, in this paticular subject, you are all secretive and not helpful. People are interested in your pollen patties and you are are clearly not interested. 

I guess I am in the school of thought of actually helping people. 

But I will stay on the "sidelines" on this one. 

Knowledge should be shared... its kinda like sending your kids to school. Keith, you have a kid or two... you should know. Hope teachers dont stop sharing knowledge with your kids. Yikes.. its all secretive... 

just my two cents...


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Bjorn, what you just posted is nothing but alot of fluff.

To answer your main question, ERIC MUSSEN U.C. DAVIS.

He has given more talks lately and is a bee nutrition expert.

Hello anybody there in PA. wake up Bjorn


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> Knowledge should be shared... its kinda like sending your kids to school. Keith, you have a kid or two... you should know. Hope teachers dont stop sharing knowledge with your kids. Yikes.. its all secretive...
> 
> just my two cents...



Hey Chef, last time I looked I paid the pre School teacher.

Ask Mann Lake what's in there how much and where to get the supplies. I'm sure they will tell you.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Keith, answer the questions. Whats the level of vitamin A that has been set as some standard? And what is the level of vitamin A in your product?

I would think those basic questions should, or could be answered, since you openly state the importance and discredit others along the way.

Just answer the questions....


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Yes, everyone should ask Mannlake as keith has suggested. Not sure if they will tell you who there suppliers are, but they would be able to give you nutrition values. Something your not going to get here from those with fluff...


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Bjorn, you figure it out, like I have spent month's on end doing just that. Also, since were thowing Keith under the bus.... 

You have no idea how much money & time I've spent on lab results with pollen sub products. 

I have analysis of bee pollen & my pollen sub, And to say I don't know what I'm using.

To make reckless statements in your earlyer post about pollen sub is just a rookie move.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Fat Bees Skinny Bees*

*a manual on honey bee nutrition for beekeepers*

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/05-054.pdf

"There is no complete 
success story whereby one 
recipe works in all 
circumstances."


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well Barry,

It says vit A & K for brood rearing. K, BTW, is found in geen leafy vegg.


Both of these are seeked in my patty and have it, the cost is high for these TWO vitamins. But I feel is worth it.

Bjorn, you should read the whole story, posted by Barry, before making any more loose cannon statements using my name.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Keith,
Of course trace elements are needed for a host of things. I read the part about vitamin A. But NOWHERE did I read some standard of level required.

Thus far....

You say one product or another does not have enough vitamin A. (But no standard has been given)

You claim that your product, through your recipe has enough or is somehow superior (But as of this time, no standard has been given, and no such analysis of your product has been seen)

So how can any claim be made with no standard, and no analysis of your product? Can we go back to fluff, perhaps with hype thrown in?

Please give me something else to go on.... 

You take a casual mention of vitamins, in which vitamin A is included, and throw some egg yolk in your recipe, and then make claims. And then call me rookie. That's how this works?

How about quit mentioning all this lab work, time, and money spent, and just answer the questions and post the results you now claim to have. Although with no standard in the industry concerning vitamin A, I'm not sure the value of such information. But I guess it sounds good for marketing, until someone calls you on it.


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

Keith, I'm sure YOU know what you are using, but the rest of us don't. That is why you are getting heated responses here.

I recognize that you spent a bunch of time and money perfecting your recipe, and would like to recoup that investment somehow, some way, someday. Please find a way to do that. Sell the patties, or bulk mix or whatever you wish to do. Nobody will fault you for that. (well, maybe they will, but that is not right either.)

Someday when you've recovered your investment, maybe then you'll share with the rest of us. At that point I agree with Chef - it should be shared.

Someday maybe it won't just be about you and your investment and you'll be able to sit back in your rocking chair and think for a moment about how you made the world a tiny bit better by perfecting and sharing a recipe that provided bees with good nutrition.

At that point in your life it is a small thing that makes a big difference.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Troy, 
very well said,

Who's to say that what I'm doing is correct??? I ask myself this question all the time.

It's just like at the beesource photo gallerie (bees waiting for almonds), I sold a keeper a bunch of sub, he put it on top which I did not recomend. The bees are taking it BTW.

Once a week I go by and weigh patties to see how much they have eaten, this is recorded to the ounce, along with weather data, size of hive & breed of queen . 

Troy, what I'm doing is to find out if this method is feasable.

There are three different mixes, with different levels of sugar in that yard.

All to find out what works and what does not.

This takes time and effort.

But I have a problem when someone says, " this xyz does nothing for the bees" when in fact it does. That's when i'll speak up.

I use to be able to crawl out from under the bus alot faster in my younger days, but I'm getting alot of practice here.


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## Beemaninsa (Jun 9, 2004)

Lake thompson you have a PM concerning brewers yeast.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> But I have a problem when someone says, " this xyz does nothing for the bees" when in fact it does. That's when I'll speak up.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Keith, what I did was make an opinion on what I think. What you did was say I was wrong, and when asked to show proof, you bailed on the subject.
> ...


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

come on Keith get out from under that bus and let tecumseh dust ya' off bro....

well quite clearly keith desires to sell a bit of product and doesn't think that sharing ALL his information with everyone on this board will benefit him directly.... and for myself I can totally appreciate his point of view. he ain't keepin' bees just to entertain himself and a man needs to make a buck. why should keith be incumbered with the cost of development of a product and other simple scoop up his know how at NO cost (this is actually a classic economic case of the Free Rider). been there, done that, and I can't see anything wrong with keith's particular point of view.

quite plainly some argument has arisen way beyond the original question of the thread. meanwhile some folks accuse others of adding fluff while adding no appreciable information themselves and often time displaying a surprisingly high level of ignorance of the very topic that is being discussed (or may simple disagree with anyone on any topic who might even appear to not be politically correct enough for their particular taste). they have accomplished the exact same thing they accuse others in essentially adding no appreciable context to the question at hand. they always seem intent on creating a disagreement even when no one disagrees... in a purely political world you would correctly tag these folks as anarchist.

just call 'em like I see 'em...


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

thanks for the link Barry.... 

well kind of anyway.... I didn't really know the download was quite that large.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BjornBee;279514Keith said:


> Hi Bjorn, if you take the time to re-read your post #5 the bottom part is dead wrong is IMHO.
> 
> One thing that is aparent here is that there are parrots here, they repete what I have earlyer stated, to sound as if they know.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Hi Bjorn, if you take the time to re-read your post #5 the bottom part is dead wrong is IMHO.
> 
> One thing that is aparent here is that there are parrots here, they repete what I have earlyer stated, to sound as if they know.



Geesh Keith. You answer no questions, and beat around the bush, then comment on the bottom of post 5, without clearly stating what it was.

So let me guess, was it my comment about having everything needed? Yes, my comment was in reference to the conversation at the time in regards to protein and amino acid. Brewers yeast DOES have the proper levels. 

So is this where you pull out vitamin A, somehow suggesting one product or another is lacking, even though there is no standard or published criteria or guidelines as to the amounts needed by bees.

Or is this where you suggest because you add one item or another to your product, that by some voo-doo magic, your vitamin A level is above this imaginary standard that does not exist.

I've asked you to show ANY standard. I ask you to state your level in your product. I asked many questions. But nothing from you.

So the best you can do is take a comment I made applicable to the discussion at the time, in reference to protein and amino acids, and somehow use those comments after the fact and apply them to a secondary discussion about vitamin A. Which without a standard for vitamin A, makes your assumptions and claims about the matter, meaningless.

I really think others are getting tired of this. And since you fail to answer even basic questions, do you really feel this is going anywhere? If this keeps going, I know your going to start dropping names. (I know Ray!, blah, blah, blah.) Please spare me.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BjornBee said:


> Brewers yeast has everything you need from a nutrition standpoint. Everything else is due to increasing palatability, or because someone wants to claim some special recipe. .


Do you really believe this Bjorn ?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Keith,
Yes.

All standards that I have seen in regards to what bees need have to do with protein levels, amino acid levels, and vague comments about vitamins and minerals. The deGroot file, and the articles that have come about since then, all make very clear standards in regards to proteins and amino acids. What is not so clear is the many vitamin and minerals, and any clear standard or level.

Brewers yeast has the required levels of protein and amino acids. That's what I was referencing, when I made the statement.

Now if you want to discuss the many other issues of vitamins and minerals, then start by listing standards, levels needed, research papers, or anything else to the matter. A vague comment that vitamin A is essential to life, is not cutting it. You can't claim one product does not have enough, or another has enough, without some kind of standards in place. To do so, is hype, fluff, and misleading marketing.

I have a growing list of items people "think" they need in pollen supplement. It includes everything from potato flakes, to powdered seaweed, kelp, algae, salt of every kind, and so on. How can so many ingredients be so important, when nobody can even tell what the standard is in regards to such items as vitamin A, let alone tell what the level is in the final product they are selling?

To simply suggest that by adding an ingredient, and boosting a value such as vitamin A, is in my opinion fluff, and marketing at its worst. To defend such actions and comments based on some vague suggestion that vitamin A is essential on some level of life, does not cut it.

If pollen supplement needs a certain level of vitamin A, then come out with it. But in the absence of any standard, any published guidelines, or anything else, is just nonsense.

If you want to dig deep in the subject, lets start by finding out what the levels of vitamin A is in the natural foods bees would collect on their own. So what is vitamin A levels in honey and pollen? I guess if you could answer that, your on the right path. Since your so vague, and make everyone else guess, and "in the dark", I'll let you figure that out for yourself. That seems like a game you like to play.

Now, after finding out what Vitamin A level are in honey and pollen, then you could actually start comparing the levels to supplement base products such as brewers yeast, etc.

You may actually find that the vitamin A levels that some are suggesting and using in their recipes are way OVERKILL, from what bees require. Keep in mind the article Barry listed..it warns against high levels of minerals and vitamins.

Then if you want to actually formulate a good pollen supplement, know whats in your product and how that compares to what bees collect in pollen and honey. Then maybe you could make claims of beneficial additive, and formulas based on some standard.

Up till now, I don't see the industry completing any of those steps.

So...if your asking about protein and amino acids in brewers yeast, the answer is yes. The standards as I have read thus far, brewer's yeast meets the published guidelines of what one should be focused on in a supplement. (Protein and amino acids.) I do however think that as a stand alone product, brewers yeast lacks palatability that bees want.

If your commenting on vitamin A, I'll once again ask for ANY standard on the matter. And a clear explanation on the matter, and how that compares to what bees collect naturally. And the finish would be to divulge the levels as tests show, that you use in your product.

Anything less, is fluff. Fluff with no basis, no standards, and no reasoning.


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## applebwoi (Jun 20, 2006)

Bjorn,
You been locked in the cabin too long? Keith isn't going to give details so relax. Its nearly Christmas. What do you think the bees like best in their eggnog?


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

Torula yeast -in my eggnog please  RDY-B


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

appplebwoi writes:
What do you think the bees like best in their eggnog?

tecumseh request:
a splash a whiskey please...

first bjorn writes:
So...if your asking about protein and amino acids in brewers yeast, the answer is yes. The standards as I have read thus far, brewer's yeast meets the published guidelines of what one should be focused on in a supplement. (Protein and amino acids.) I do however think that as a stand alone product, brewers yeast lacks palatability that bees want.

tecumseh suggest:
the last sentence (fluff, fluff, fluff) simply mean that the girls will not eat the stuff by itself... so although it may contain the proper major building blocks there is no way to place it in the hive without the girls simple tossing it out the front door.

then bojorn writes
Anything less, is fluff. Fluff with no basis, no standards, and no reasoning.

tecumseh suggest:
well there is a reason bjorn but you evidently haven't figured it out yet... reference the previous bjorn and tecumseh comment to begin (and certainly this is not the stand ALONE reason why diet composition whether you are talking bee diet or human diet might vary from place to place). 

I for one would suggest that some of this difference is economic in nature. even 20 years ago we could formulate least cost diet using linear programming (we did not have desk top computers so calcualtion was done on a main frame... although very simple matrix could be cranked out by hand if you had a lot of time). You could bound requirements (ie >, =, <) and minor shifts in cost of input would quickly alter the components used in the diet. This calculation did not automatically mean that the diet was eatable. So oftentime components (like molasses for cattle) was forced into the calculation to insure that the diet would be eaten. small ingredients added to the diet like vitamins and micro minerals often time were the most expensive components of the diet.... so most time the smallest things in the diet were the most costly. proper blending also meant that these small things required the most labor/machine input.

the second difference can be bioliogical....since pollen like substitutes are usually added to increase brood rearing even a quick glimpse of the old research would suggest quite directly that the brood rearing responce (sq inch of brood over some time frame) mean that not all protein sources are equivalent..... either in the time required for the porper response (ie some responce may be time lagged more than other protein sources) or the quantitive nature of the responce (ie some ingredients provide more bang for the buck that other sources).

lastly how you might be feeding (free choice via buckets placed in the yard) or in patties (place within the hive) would also effect the pollen substitutes composition and cost.


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

*Pollen Patties*

Definitions- Websters New World Dictionary-Desk Reference 1979
Standard- something established as a rule or basis of comparision in measuring quantity, quality, value, etc.-----
Pollen- powderlike male sex cell on the stamen of a flower
substitute- a person or thing acting or used in place of another
Supplement-- something added, esp. to make up for a lack 

IMO--- No one can agree; including our researchers, on a standard of the protein levels in natural pollen. General consensus is that levels of protein "average", and that the bees need certain percentages of vitamins, minerals, lipids, amino acids.etc. There has not been enough research done to 'nail" these down.

For years "we" beekeepers have used substitute for pollen to stimulate them into brood rearing. And "we" beekeepers have even added natural pollen to our substitutes to make them more palatable to the bees and increase their consumption. However, to the best of my knowledge there is no one person that has been able to formulate a subsitute that will keep the hives alive and growing for an entire year, without natural pollen.

I used to mix my own pollen patties and I had my "own" formulation. So I understand that someone who puts time, effort, and trial into his formulation would not care to share it with others. 
Basic pollen patties are simple and they fill a need for a period of time to get your bees to certain point. IMO they are a "tool" that we use to maintain our hives to a certain level.
Many beekeepers use straight brewers yeast, others add soyflour. I feel that any beekeeper on this site after reading the submitted responses could come up with a very, very good pollen supplement patty that they could use on their hives.

So pass the Wild Turkey. I need to add it to my eggnog, before mixing it in my brewers yeast. My little girls just love it.
Merry Christmas
Frank


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

applebwoi and WG,
Again, I never asked and don't expect Keith to divulge his recipe. I made my opinion known, and Keith responded by mentioning vitamin A. I only ask on what basis does he have to claim that another persons opinion is wrong, where no standard exists, and Keith will not explain himself in any manner. Not really too hard.

To suggest that vitamin A is needed, there must be a known level required. To suggest that another person's pollen supplement is lacking, there must be a standard. To suggest that his is suitable, there must be some verification of his tested amount. But without such a standard, how can any of this come about.

I ask for a standard that could allow ANY product to be hyped to the masses in regards to such items as vitamin A. Thus far.....NOTHING!

And none of this has anything to do with divulging Keith secret recipe.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

WG, 
I also make my pollen sub from a brewers yeast base. I add some soy flour, some pollen, and a couple other things. The girls eat it up. My additives have more to do with palatability. I have never added a product on the basis or claim that bees need some miniscule amount of vitamin A, when I have no clue what that amount could be. Some of these recipes are heralded as some super sensitive secret, with recipe mixes reaching in the 20+ range of additives, all based on rather baseless vague comments made over the years. Yeah, I believe most of the items are for fluff, hype, and marketing, as I said before.

I find your comments very much on target.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Could someone please pass the eggnog. 

LOL.. 

Here's some food for thought,

If we go outside in the sun our bodies convert sun light to vitiam D.

In the bees gut, they can do simular things.

So then, it's not all about proteins, although it's important & also important is the process in which it is made.

So to get stuck on... my product has xyz is only part of the equation.


Or to think that the "label has XYZ which is not imporant", may not be the way to go about it.

So Bjorn, have some eggnogg & have a merry Xmas

Keith


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

*bee protein demand in the early spring*

is so high I have seen my bees consume baked potatoes very rapidly but the amount of brood produced was not that great, maybe they needed the eggnog.


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

*Pollen Patties*

I have a special mixture of protein patties that I take myself.
I remove all the soyflour, brewers yeast, sugar, sugar syrup, pollen, and "secret ingredents" and just leave the Wild Turkey. Add ice and a splash of water.
Greatly improves my attitude.
Merry Christmas
Frank

Bjorn- we will be in Pa in June. I'll try to look you up between auctions.
Frank


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

tecumseh said:


> come on Keith get out from under that bus and let tecumseh dust ya' off bro....
> 
> well quite clearly keith desires to sell a bit of product and doesn't think that sharing ALL his information with everyone on this board will benefit him directly


Indeed, givein the nature of many beeks, he might sell less product if his stuff is good and the recipe is spread over the net.



> why should keith be incumbered with the cost of development of a product and other simple scoop up his know how at NO cost (this is actually a classic economic case of the Free Rider). been there, done that, and I can't see anything wrong with keith's particular point of view.


Neither should anyone. No where is it written that one needs to empty one's entire head to eveyone else on this board. It is nice when some do, and their altruism is to be comended but it is not required.

If anyone out there feels really strongly about looking at any ration, then do what anyone that intrested in the quality of their animals feed does: Buy some, run some tests. 

Want to know what the level of any substance in any feed really is? Test it. Or better yet, test several batches. http://animalhealth.msu.edu/Bin/Catalog.exe?Display 90$ a sample for vitamin A in a feed. Not a bad deal.

Once you know what you think are the most important features of said diet, you can pick a base and work towards replicating it. Easy? Not always, but Keith did it, and so can you. Unwilling to pay? Why should he have, only to pass it along for nothing?

Sometimes it behoves a feed company to provide these bits of data, other times not. Keith apparently feels that his interests are served by not providing this data at this time. His choice. Now if enough people are unwilling to purchase his feed without some analyte in a guaranteed analysis, he might change his tune. I suspect that the hew and cry for it though will be minor and more people will pay attention to his claims of efficacy (should he be making them and marketing them correctly) than any number he might generate for a substance few people really know much about except that it is a vitamin and you can get it from carrots.

Keith

Pass the nog


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

*Pollen Patties*

Just being the devils advocate here- KB., but, just because KJ's formulation works so well for him,(& others) does not mean that one by some one else will not generate the desired results. Feeding protein supplements is as much a management system as it has to do with protein levels. 
Timing, Timing, Timing. 
IMO
Keith is generating bees for almond pollination and needs, must have, BROOD GROWTH. A beek that has other priorities may not need that aggressive approach.

Frank


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

WG Bee Farm said:


> Just being the devils advocate here- KB.,


Feel free, just remember who you are working for when you do . . . . 

I agree, I was merely talking about the argument over one ingredient or another. You are right to point out that designing a ration is not simply following a recipe, or mimicking one chemically. There is a whole host of other considerations, imcluding deployment and such.


Keith


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

mr jarrett writes:
In the bees gut, they can do simular things.

So then, it's not all about proteins, although it's important & also important is the process in which it is made.

So to get stuck on... my product has xyz is only part of the equation.

tecumseh replies:
I am not so certain (and I would guess that a dabate would insue) as to the analogy of vitamin d production via the sun and what does or does not happen in the bees gut. does absorbtion take place yes... production of vitamin would be debatable. I am not certain that even the 'experts' really know? if all or most vitamin are produced (as most are in cattle-ruminants) then the value of vitamins are only maginally valuable. if all vitamins must be included in the diet (ie none are produced) then the added vitamins go from marginally valuable to essential.

I for one would tend to agree that in ain't all about protein but should also include the quality of the protein plus micro nutrients such as mineral and vitamins.

although feed inputs may be throughly tested for ingredients this only presents an AVERAGE of several samples (some statistically defined number of samples typically >30 for very large populations). so if one was being rigorous you would also wish to know exactly how much variation occured in all the samples analysized.

heck... throw out that dang eggnog and just fill the glass with whiskey. 

and a merry, safe and warm christmas to all...


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

after reading Skinny Bee/Fat Bee (provide by Barry which did take my dial up modem about one hour to download) there are a number of items I am unfamilar with... 

Golden Treat- an additive to pollen supplement which comes in a bottle (about $90 for a 500ml bottle) acquired in Canada.

torula yeast- another additive to pollen supplemental patties.

polland-yet another ingredient for pollen patties.

any assistance will be greatly appreciated.

thanks again Barry for this excellent source.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

tecumseh said:


> torula yeast- another additive to pollen supplemental patties.


Tecumseh, Torula yeast is made from wood products. I beleive from wood sap, not 100% sure though.That was BTW a good link.


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## Matt Beekman (Dec 15, 2007)

*Egg Yolk*

Keith do you still have dired egg yolk available for $2.00 / Lb.? If so I would be interested in about 1,000 lbs.?


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> If we go outside in the sun our bodies convert sun light to vitiam D.
> 
> In the bees gut, they can do similar things.


I find this an interesting statement. Can you expand on that? Is it possible, since vitamin A has come up as well, that you are confusing the conversion of 7-dehydrocholecalciferol into cholecalciferoll in the skin with the conversion of betacarotene into vitamin A in the gut?

If not what are the mecahisms you are talking about?

Keith


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Keith Benson said:


> I find this an interesting statement. Can you expand on that? Is it possible, since vitamin A has come up as well, that you are confusing the conversion of 7-dehydrocholecalciferol into cholecalciferoll in the skin with the conversion of betacarotene into vitamin A in the gut?
> 
> If not what are the mecahisms you are talking about?
> 
> Keith


Hi Keith, I did not say Vitamin "A" in the gut, but since were on that, 
Vitamin "K" is through.

Hope that clear thing up a bit.

Keith


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Matt Beekman said:


> Keith do you still have dired egg yolk available for $2.00 / Lb.? If so I would be interested in about 1,000 lbs.?


Yes I do Matt.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Hi Keith, I did not say Vitamin "A" in the gut, but since were on that,
> Vitamin "K" is through.
> 
> Hope that clear thing up a bit.


Not much, but perhaps I am daft. I guess I would like to know what parallels you are suggesting exist between D3 synthesis in vertebrates and and vitamin K synthesis in insects GITs. If that is what you are alluding to.

I don't see such a parallel, as I do not believe UVB penetrates anyone to the level of their intestinal lumen, unless they have had a profound bodily disruption.

Keith


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Keith Benson said:


> . I guess I would like to know what parallels you are suggesting If that is what you are alluding to.
> Keith


Not suggesting any paralles, other than the bees, I've beed told and read can manufactur Vitiam K in there gut, so if your missing or low in that area it my not bee as bad as the bees them self's can help much like the sun. 

Did that shed any sunshine on the subject


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

keith writes
Not suggesting any paralles, other than the bees, I've beed told and read can manufactur Vitiam K in there gut

tecumseh writes:
I think somewhere (please don't ask me where) within the link provided by barry (fat bee/skinny bee) it is suggested that Vitiam K MIGHT be synthesize in the bees gut. the sentence was construct to be OBVIOUSLY speculative in nature.

as I suggested previosly it would be quite DEBATABLE that bees even can MANUFACTURE vitamins. it could happen, but I don't think you will get a large degree of agreement from the experts in regards to vitamin synthesis in honeybees.

of course the real fly in the ointment is that vitamins are not all created equal either and how bioliogically active they may be is quite difficult to determine and some of course decompose quite quickly.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Not suggesting any paralles, other than the bees, I've beed told and read can manufactur Vitiam K in there gut, so if your missing or low in that area it my not bee as bad as the bees them self's can help much like the sun.
> 
> Did that shed any sunshine on the subject


Yes, though you seem to be beeing oddly cryptic about a striaght forward subject. Maybe it is just me.

Having said that, is it the bees that are manufacturing the K, or is there a resident microflora that is doing it?

Keith


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

tecumseh said:


> as I suggested previosly it would be quite DEBATABLE that bees even can MANUFACTURE vitamins. it could happen, but I don't think you will get a large degree of agreement from the experts in regards to vitamin synthesis in honeybees.


That and if an animal can manufacture something in their own body, it should not properly be termed a vitamin. The thing is, in vertebrates at least, you don't make vitamin K, the microbes in your gut do. Getting back to Vitamin D, lest it get confusing, most physiologists nowadays would say that it is best described as a steroid hormone. People still call if Vitamin D, cause, well, it's tradition.

Keith


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

stayin on the sidelines....


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Hasn't this horse been beat enough?


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

would have to agree Dan... good reason for the edit


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Ah... This hay burner's alright,

The study is on the net I believe, But it is not FREE. I will see if I can find it, Then Keith B can can ask them.


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

*Enough...*

Can anybody answer the question? This got way off of the original topic. If you have a recipe please chime in. All this other banter is going nowhere.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

hampton: just ask Keith J. He should be helpful.


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Chef,

Thanks but, No thanks.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Hapton:

On a serious note, talk with bjorn. he has some interesting and helpful thoughts on the subject.


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Chef,

There is a post running on beekeeping 101. Thanks for the help.

Andy


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## aallen (Feb 2, 2006)

Keith do you still have dired egg yolk available for $2.00 / Lb.? If so I would be interested in about 400lb, thanks


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

aallen said:


> Keith do you still have dired egg yolk available for $2.00 / Lb.? If so I would be interested in about 400lb, thanks


Yes Allen, Egg yolk, about 2000 lbs left in warehouse. 
Located in central Calif.


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## aallen (Feb 2, 2006)

*egg yolk*

like to order 400#asap thanks-- what shipping do you use?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Pollen Patties Or Pollen Substitute*

If you are making pollen patties you do not need the egg yolk. A pollen pattie is exactly that by pure definition.
However, a pollen substitute is different.
If you do some research you will find out that the egg yolk is added because it adds L-lysine!Mann Lake is proud of their product and L-lysine is listed in their advirtisement.
The oldest printing of ABC & XYZ of Beekeeping informes you to add egg yolk if it is available.
You can mix in some of the cheapest rot gut dark rum, let the mix set for a few days so as to get the flavor throughout the mix and the bees realy gobble it up.
Regards,
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BEES4U said:


> You can mix in some of the cheapest rot gut dark rum, let the mix set for a few days so as to get the flavor throughout the mix and the bees realy gobble it up.
> Regards,
> Ernie
> Lucas Apiaries



Now this takes the cake. LOL


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Hey Ernie,

Can we get another round for the girls, Ah just leave the bottle.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Another Round*

Sure, you can have another round and I will leave you the keg as the girls can get a little thirsty and rowdy!
I am not responsible for their actions.
Look out for Rhonda as she can not handle her rum. I have had her in rehab twice. She thinks that drinking is like collecting nectar.
But, the addition of rum is listed in older publications on making patties.
The girls also prefer the Coors brand of brewers yeast that I bought from Los Angeles Honey Company back in 1980!
Have fun.
Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

LOL...

Ya that FUI , hey maybe that's the cause of CCD. No... maybe the keeper didn't share. LOL...


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BEES4U said:


> If you do some research you will find out that the egg yolk is added because it adds L-lysine!Regards,
> Ernie
> Lucas Apiaries


Egg yolk is added for the 40% fat ( Fatty Acid Profile) is has.Not to mention the 47% protein, But remember protein is NOT the only ingredient needed for a well rounded sub.


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## joekurm (Sep 23, 2007)

*So, What is the verdict?*

Wow, what a thread.

I agree that if you think that you have invested so much, then you have the right not to tell. But what are you contributing? MAny good points have been made, but what is the answer?

I only have 2 hives and would like to split them. I am planning on feeding pollen sub patties to increase brood early. I have seen some recipes and they contain many things. I don't have the resources to invest into such a small operation, but would like some input as to what I should use.

One recipe for Pollen-Substitute Patty includes:

(Makes a 1.5 pound patty)

1.5 cups (8oz.) fat-free soy flour
.5 cup (1oz.) Brewer’s yeast
1.5 cups (12oz.) granulated sugar
Sugar Syrup
Mix dry ingredients and add slowly to syrup until mixture is like stiff bread dough. Press between wax paper. Place patty over cluster with wax paper up.

I have also heard that canola oil helps keep the patties from drying out, and adding pollen is also good. I hae also heard that you can add essential oils.

If I had a good recipe, I would share it, not like the stories that you hear of the woman who gives out her secret recipe but leaves out something so that it doesn't come out right.

If you don't want to help someone out, don't post, and get over it. If you have and comments that can help. I know that I appreciate them


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

*help*

"If you don't want to help someone out, don't post, and get over it. If you have and comments that can help. I know that I appreciate them" well said. i wondered myself what was being contibuted by a poster that brags but refuses to share. how is this helpful? such coments should go to tailgator.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*FEEDING BEES: 1st lesson in nutrition*

*Any and all nutrition for animals and plants.*
The feed, ration, for plants and animals is limited to the lowest % of the essential requierments.
You can have what you think is a good ration or fertilizer and if you are low in just one essential item all the rest is not going to work at the top %.
For example, there are 16 known essential amino acids for livestock production and if you are low in one the animal can only function as high as the lowest amino acid.
Now for the big bomb, the quaility of your diet, ration, or fertilizer.
Feather meal has been added to animal rations to increase protein level.
Pretty good idea as it is easily available. 
Here is the bad news. It is very low in digestability!
So beekeepers, what you need to do is select your bee diets for *digestable constituents!*
I use BevSweet as my sugar base if and when I make pollen supplements because it makes it very attractive to the bees and does not dry out!


My very best regards,
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Feeding Bees Oil In Patties*

Hold onto your Hive Tool!
My new feed additive to field test.
This is Top Secret. Shuuuuuuush. Do not share. Do not educate. Do not collaborate. Keep to your self.
The above lines are a pun.
The name is Lipiderm for dogs
Contents:
Omega 3 & 6 Fatty Acids
Vitamins A & E
Zinc
Made by International Veterinary Science
It is Micellized and that is your word for the day.
Guanteed Analysis (See No Secretes.)
It contains 4 Fatty Acids and one of them is listed as Alpha - Linolenic Acid , 0.7% which I find interesting!
Per teaspoon
Omega -6 Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid 0.4%
Vit. A 1500 IU
Vit. E 10 IU
Zinc 7.5 mg
Ingrdients;
fish oil,citric acid, linoleic acid,zinc sulfate,safflower oil,potassium sorbate, vitamin A palmitate
www.invet.com
I have no affiliations with the company. I bought this product for my dogs skin and general health.
Hopefully the information is helpful as balancing rations can be perplexing!
If you want more help contact me.
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries
(I start grafting queen cells this latter month.)


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Perhaps a simpler explanation of what Ernie is talking about in regards to needed levels of amino acids, and the results of lacking one, can be read here....

http://www.honeybee.com.au/Library/pollen/nutrition.html


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> I only have 2 hives and would like to split them. I am planning on feeding pollen sub patties to increase brood early. I have seen some recipes and they contain many things. I don't have the resources to invest into such a small operation, but would like some input as to what I should use. -joekurm


Based on the number of hives you have, I presume you don't have a pollination contract, you're not trying to raise queens to sell, you're not producing nucs or packages for sale, and you're likely not relying on a honey crop to supplement your income. So, starting with those presumptions, I would skip feeding them a pollen substitute. Just wait until they're out collecting pollen anyway, then split your hives as you wish. The bees will forage for what they need, and, if it's available, they'll collect what they need.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Thought-provoking reading along the lines of this topic:

Manning, R., A. Rutkay, L. Eaton and B. Dell. 2007. Lipid-enhanced pollen and lipid-reduced flour diets and their effect on the longevity of honey bees (_Apis mellifera_ L.) _Australian Journal of Entomology_, 46: 251-257.


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## Ronnie Elliott (Mar 24, 2004)

Well Keith, the ball has been put into your court. Will you please respond, i'm thinking which patty i want to go with.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

okay, I read the first part of the thread and skimmed through the many pages...
Now off the bat I am going to ruffle a few feathers
i ask that before you feed the bees egg yolk you look at the cattle industry and take heed from their example namely BSE.
It all started by feeding herbivoires meat protien and by products as a cost effective way of getting rid of waste and increasing protien in the products for beef.
Many years later we have BSE all due to our ignorance of the grand design that herbivores eat only plant protien.

Translate this to the bees.
Bees do not feast on eggs regularly, at least mine don't. They don't feast on birds, beef pigs etc.
They feed on plant protien and nectare.
Egg yolks change their diet in a way that is not intended for them. Who knows what heap of a mess will be brought about by our messing about.

The pollen they gather contains all the nutrients they need. Pollen patties made from pollen and plant base matter and syrup of some sort is designed for bees.
If we eat pollen and it's like taking a high dosed multi vitamin, I'm sure it is good enough for the bees

Pollen good....eggs baaaadddd


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## Kelly Livingston (Feb 24, 2007)

*IS brewers yeast all that you NEED for aminos?*

Bjorn:

I've been following this thread, nodding my head with the idea that we need science and papers to help us produce better feed for our bees. I followed your last link to the Australian report on amino nutrition for bees and found that very helpful. However, I think you just showed me that your claim that brewers yeast is nutritionally sufficient is not correct. I'll recap what I found and you can be the judge.

I went to your link which was an Australian source. They cite someone who gives the amino acids and minimum ratios of acids necessary for full absorption and utilization in bees. They make a claim (which I think is valid) that a nutrition source must have a certain percentage of crude protein in order sustain a highly stressed (worked) hive and for the crude protein to be absorbed it must have certain ratios (this is implied by the paper they cited). They then show some amino profiles for pollen source they consider to be poor and they show why... a lack of Iso-leucine. For a protein source to have full absorption in a bee, 4% of the amino acids must be Iso-leucine. In the case of this paper, they showed that natural forage on a certain pollen (Lucerne) had enough crude protein but was deficient in Iso-leucine (3.1-2.7%) Due to this restriction, this ended up dropping the absorption of crude protein down below their claimed threshold of 20% for a colony in stress which happened to be the case when Lucerne was in bloom. The solution: supplement with soy flour which has 50% crude protein and 5.6-4.4% Iso-leucine. They also said that they had to cut the soy flour with sugars to make crude protein closer to 30% for digestion. Why recap this?

If you look at brewer yeast ( I googled "amino acids brewers yeast"), it has 50% crude protein and of that protein only 2.5% Iso-leucine. So now to make some conclusions.
Does brewers yeast have all the aminos that a bee needs? Yes, but not in the right ratio and this can be bad. For example, if you cut brewers yeast with sugar at a 1:1 ratio, you will have a feed with 25% crude protein but only 16% will be usable. 

Obviously, we as beekeepers provide pollen patties in the middle of winter when no other protein source is available so this kind of feed could be beneficial. However, I have some concerns. In humans, overloads of certain amino acids that can't be used by the body to create proteins must be expelled. The amine groups (essentially nitrogen and hydrogen) are transformed into ammonia (very toxic) so the liver transforms that into urea(less toxic) and your kidney's filter the urea out into your urine. Why does this matter? Because it has been shown that a south beach diet where large amounts of protein are consumed can damage the liver and kidneys and cause significant health problems. So if your bees are consuming lots of unusable protein I claim that they still have to deal with detoxification (essentially causing stress and dysentery) which could stress your already cold hungry bees.

But if you cut with soy flour:brewers yeast: sugar at a 3:1:4 ratio, you will have a feed that has 25% crude protein with NO loss of absorption due to deficiency in Iso-leucine. Obviously, I haven't looked it up for other essential amino acids. I also would like to point out that if you look at joekurm's recipe it is VERY close to these ratios. So there you go... soy flour is not fluff... it can REALLY help... and any other ingredients which can do the same thing are not fluff. Maybe the essential oils that someone puts in to fool bees into choking down something that will kill their "bee kidneys" is fluff. Not unlike the secret sauce you find on a BigMac.

Lastly, this is my first winter as a bee keeper and I have zero experience with what I'm saying. It is all in my opinion although I hope you see my logic behind it. I hope this helps newbies like me and anyone else who wants to be open about it.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Kelly,
Your absolutely on target with what you said. And this goes to shows, that its worth looking into. 

I myself, probably spent 3 months with 20-30 samples of protein samples from different companies when I started out. Some were granulated. Some were powdered, but lacking a key ingredient. Some were great nutritionally but was granulated. (I actually spent days grinding down product with a coffee grinder until I found a suitable protein based product in air sprayed powder form.)

Not all brewers yeast is nutritionally sound. The right combination is a brewers yeast exceeding the nutritional requirements, and in powder form. I also did not allow marketing or slick salesmanship to come into play. I found a company that had posted the minimum nutrition analysis long before I started looking into this. I found not more than two that had product suitable.

I normally cut my brewers yeast with about 15% added stuff (pollen, etc.) And I have already figured that this maintains the supplement above the 4% isoleucine factor. I also add soy sometimes. Some people want it, some don't. The bees do like it and it add palatability to the mix. But its not needed from a nutrition standpoint. Not me anyways, since my base has the nutritional requirement covered. If your using a brewers yeast that is less than the standard, I guess adding a bunch of stuff can be needed.

I made my comment about fluff, assuming that people were using GOOD brewers yeast. I guess I could be wrong if one starts with a bad base product and then adds "fluff" to make up the difference.

I am glad you found the information worth analyzing. Your on the right track...


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Pollen Patties my 2nd method.*

I bought a new blender today and it is a type that has blades that circulate the contents better than the older models. 
Here is another method:
1.0 Measure out two cups of tap water and pour into the blender.

2.0 Measure out one cup of pollen and pour over the water.

3.0 Stire in the pollen with a spoon.

4.0 Secure the blender and turn it on low. Let it blend the mixture for a few minutes, I timed it for onley 4.0 min.

5.0 I poured it through a screen into a plastic container and found out that the pollen pellets were totally broken up! (Next time I will not use the screen.)

6.0 Add three cups of C&H, because that is what I prefer and I do not want to here a discussion on my sugar selection at this time, granulated sugar to the pollen water mixture and stir until the sugar is disolved.

7.0 You may now add more pollen or pollen substitute to make the patty desirable for you to handle and for the bees to consume. 

8.0 I use a # 10 scoop and place 1-3 scoops per patty between wax paper so that it does not dry out.

9.0 Place the patty in the proximety of the cluster so that the bees can access it 24 7

10.0 The bees should be fed a stimulative syrup along with the pollen patty.

11.0 The pollen syrup can also be smeared into a drawn comb and placed next to the cluster. That means as the outside comb! Or, adjacent to the cluster.

1 drawn comb, 1 drawn comb, 1 frame filled with the pollen syrup on one side, 1 brood comb, 1 brood comb, 1 brood comb, 1 drawn comb with pollen syrup on one side, `1 drawn comb, 1 drawn comb = 9 combs

12.0 The bees will thank you for being kind and understanding in these trying times.
Regards,
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries


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## djuniorfan8 (Jun 15, 2004)

*Affordable Pollen Sub. from your feed store.*

If anyone here lives on a farm you may notice bees in your feed pans. I witnessed this at an older beeks house who also raised quail. He made patties with the feed (turkey starter.)and pollen, he said he was to cheap to buy that "other" stuff (pollen sub.). Looking at the nutrition label shows the main ingredient as brewers yeast. The protein, fat, carb, and vitamin spectrum is identical to that shown in Hive and The Honeybee. Not to mention the bag is far more economical @ 40lb bags from Southern States feed & seed.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Vitamins. No mention of Vit. A*

Vitamins
When bees begin producing royal jelly for the young larvae and the queen, they need a diet high in vitamins. Nurse bees seem to need the following vitamin B complex for brood rearing: thiamine, riboflavin, nicotinamide (niacin, nicotinic acid), pyridoxine, pantothenate (pantothenic acid), folic acid, and biotin. Pantothenic acid is needed in worker-queen differentiation and nicotinic acid, in initiating brood rearing. In addition to these vitamins, ascorbic acid (vitamin C) also seems essential for brood rearing.
In general, the vitamin needs of a honey bee colony are satisfied as long as the pollen stores are abundant in the hive or fresh pollen is available to bees in the field. Micro-organisms naturally present in the alimenatry canal of bees may provide vitamins, and other essential substances, which may make an otherwise unsuitable diet adequate.

Regards,
Ernie


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Honey Bee Nutrition And Supplemental Feeding*




Honey Bee Nutrition And Supplemental Feeding
By: L.N. Standifer 1
(From Beekeeping in the United States) 

Table 1. Amino acid content of average pollen expressed as percent of crude protein
CONSTITUENT	Average pollen(crude protein, 26.3%)
ïpercent
Arginine	5.3
Histidine	2.5
Isoleucine	5.1
Leucine	7.1
Lysine	6.4
Methionine	1.9
Phenyalalamine	4.1
Threomine	4.1
Trypotophane	1.4
Valine	5.8

Regards,
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Bees also collect saw dust!*

I did a lot of reading from the older beekeeping books about the dust that bees will collect.
here is some of the items:
Saw dust
Coal dust Livestock and poultry feeds

I visited my Mom & Dad around Christmas time and they said that honey bees were collecting saw dust from a pile in the garden. It was about 4" high and about 300' away was a bee yard with 60 hives.
Yes they were and I took a poloroid photo as I was really impressed. The old ABC & XYZ of Honey Bees was right again!

This collecting behavior probably was one of the beginnings of open feeding of bees using pollen substitutes.
Regards,
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries


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## joekurm (Sep 23, 2007)

I saw a post by tecumseh about

polland-yet another ingredient for pollen patties.

I think he meant pollard. I saw this before, but "WHAT IS IT?" I looked it up several times but can't find it.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BEES4U said:


> Honey Bee Nutrition And Supplemental Feeding
> By: L.N. Standifer 1
> (From Beekeeping in the United States)
> 
> ...


Ernie, are you quoting just the 10 essential amio acids? Bee pollen from my lab profiles showes 18.


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## joekurm (Sep 23, 2007)

*Another Question about patties*

I know that this is a difficult question to answer but how long does it take for a colony to consume a 1.5# pollen sub patty? Out temps have been around 40 to 55 degrees during the day. A couple of days it has even been in the high 60's. The hive seems pretty strong. I don't want to open the hive if I don't have to but how often should I check? I was planning on waiting a week to peek in and see if they are eating and how much.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ernie, are you quoting just the 10 essential amio acids? Bee pollen from my lab profiles showes 18.



Ernie does not list them as "Essential Amino acids" which is what he listed. There are many more amino acids, and I think even more than 18. (I'm not sure how many) But from everything I have ever read on essential amino acids and bees, there have never been more than 10 listed. Keith, are you suggesting more than the 10 essential amino acids, and including amino acids that are not essential, or are you just mentioning your "report" lists more than the 10 essential amino acids, and includes those in the "non-essential amino acid" profile?

For those not up on Amino acids....

Essential amino acids are those that need to be present in a certain level in the food sources the bees feed on. There is no way they can exchange or manufacture "essential" amino acids internally.

Other amino acids, can on some level be exchanged or produced from one amino acid that is abundant, and compensation for an amino acid that is lacking in some level. This happens with "non" essential amino acids.

"Essential" means it must be already present in the foods proteins at certain basic levels.

Ernie listed "amino acids" and it should of been clear that they are "Essential amino acids". It may suggest the way it is being "read" that there are 18 instead of 10 essential amino acids. There are not. Most studies and research have not focused on other non-essential amino acids, as well as various vitamins, due to the bees ability to internally produce them, etc.

I think it best that using terms "amino acids" and "essential amino acids" it should be clear, in that they are two different things.


Thank you.


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