# Feeding mating nucs



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Depending on timing, you can feed syrup for the first 2 cycles, then you can add an empty honey comb... Be careful about letting them build up any in the nucs... this is where your acceptance rates will fall... you want to keep nucs somewhat hurting for brood... this will create an ergency from the bees and will raise your acceptance rate by far... letting her lay too long will also cause them to start trying to pull their own cells and refusing yours. A fist sized cluster of eggs on the inside of both frames is plenty to keep it weak, but going. Timing is absolutely everything. Feeding is important in the beginning to get a good take in your nucs. Once a flow has begun you can add an empty frame for them to place stores in.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

About how many days does it take before it gets too far? Can you steal brood frames to keep it weak enough to accept cells - or is it more a matter of how long she has been laying? I had hoped to go about 20 days between installing cells this coming year just to get some experience with keeping a cycle going. But if that's too long to get good acceptance I might need to go back to the drawing board.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Every area, drone supply, flow, and weather condition will create a different scenario. Here in March using mini nucs 15 days is usually perfect, in April with less rain and more flow 12 days is better, then later on like August-November 15-20 days is better... 

Using full length frames 15-20 days will be fine... Study your nucs... see how they are doing, take lots of notes and select your queens based on performance rather than date... this way you can adjust your catch and graft dates accordingly so that each year you will get more accurate.

Hope this helps!


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm planning on using full size medium frames in divided 8 frame boxes - 3 frames loose or 4 frames tight. I used some like that to dabble last summer and they seemed to work pretty well. 

I guess if you pull the queens a few days before the next batch of cells is ready that will work as long as the mating nucs don't have anything to make a queen with. Yes? No?

Can you not just tear down any wild cells they might start a day or so before introducing the cell you want to raise?

And actually on the subject - can't you just feed light syrup if there isn't much of a flow? In my area it seems that lots of people have queenless issues as the fall dearth progresses - so it would be nice to keep on producing a few in case of emergencies as late as possible. We usually have lots of drones at least until the end of October.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I catch and plant at the same time... We have timing down to a perfect science, so when we catch the last queen of a batch, and have planted the last cell of the replacement batch... the cells will in turn hatch within the hour... this leaves the only down time being the time that it takes the queen to mate properly... you also have to keep in mind that a queenless nuc will create an ergency about it... this can cause a queen to rush through her mating process and not get properly mated before she begins laying... by leaving the nuc queenless you create that ergency... if they have eggs to draw, the ergency will not be as bad, but even if you smash the cells that they draw, they will still accept less of your cells... 

I know I have discussed the catch/plant date issue in depth somewhere... I think that it may have been in the "Mini nuc percentages" thread... 

here is a link and I also brought it back to the top of the forum in hopes that it may help others.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246263


Hope this helps!


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## LT (Aug 17, 2006)

How is the best way to keep the feeders from leaking. We did the paraffin dip last Thanksgiving for last years nucs and about 30% leaked. Any ideas, to early, etc.? Thanks


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've used dixie cups squashed enough to get them between frames and fill them with a tablespoon or so of syrup. If I were building the nucs from scratch I'd plan to use the bottom board as a feeder and feed at dark so they can clean it up by morning so they don't get robbed.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

Michael, my bottoms will be syrup tight so I can do that, but will it require daily feeding?

Johnny


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

LT said:


> How is the best way to keep the feeders from leaking.


Use subfloor adhesive or exterior liquid nail to seal all seams when you build them.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

David LaFerney said:


> I guess if you pull the queens a few days before the next batch of cells is ready that will work as long as the mating nucs don't have anything to make a queen with. Yes? No?


 Depending on how long the first queen lays, you will have eggs and young larvae in the nuc. If you wait a few days the bees will start emergency cells, and the acceptance will go way down. If you do wait, wait until there are no eggs or young larvae from which the bees can raise a queen cell.

But, why wait? Why not schedule a round of cells to be ready later on the day you catch queens, or early the next day. It's all about scheduling.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

rrussell6870 said:


> here is a link and I also brought it back to the top of the forum in hopes that it may help others.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246263
> 
> ...


Yes, that's a good thread. Thanks.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> But, why wait? Why not schedule a round of cells to be ready later on the day you catch queens, or early the next day. It's all about scheduling.


I agree. The plan I've been working with is to graft every 10 days, keep them in mating nucs for 20 days so that I can plant cells every ten days (alternating into 2 groups of nucs) at the same time that I catch queens.

The ten day cycle is because I want to learn to manage a continuous process, but on a small scale - one queenless starter/finisher producing a few cells every 10 days. Once I get the hang of it I might scale up next year.

*But Then*... this thread pointed out that if you leave the queen in the mating nucs too long the acceptance rate goes down for the next cell.

On the actual subject - why not just feed 1-1 from an inverted drink bottle through a hole in the lid? It doesn't get much simpler or less invasive than that does it? In my very limited experience very small entrances do a pretty good job of preventing robbing even if you are feeding - as long as you aren't feeding a few and letting the rest starve. Anyway, since the bottles are external you can very easily put them on in the evening and take them off in the morning if you like.


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## river_rat2005 (Jan 19, 2009)

thats how i feed my nucs is with a 20 oz drink bottle. poke 2 or 3 small holes in the lid. and i find it helps to coat the rim of the hole in the lid with some sylicone to form a gasket to help with rain drippin in.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

LT,
You heat was probably too high. When you dip the feeders, you want it somewhat cool so it builds up a thick layer quickly.

Johnny, 
For those of us in the south, beetles are a huge issue for queen nucs... be careful when handling syrup...beetles love it... and queen nucs are easy pickings for shb... we only feed them when its absolutely necessary...first two cycles in early march... after that, let them fend for themselves. Even if you don't use bait, I would strongly suggest cd traps on the floor of each nuc... this wouldn't work if you feed in the floor...


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

rrussell6870 said:


> ... this wouldn't work if you feed in the floor...


Probably attract ants too - I had some of that last year in mating nucs.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I suggest using some form of stands for nucs to sit on... blocks with 2x8 boards work well... concrete slabs are ok, but they get hot and rain splatter will speed the decay of your equipment... metal shelves can be made using angle iron or square tubing and they work well to protect the nucs from rain splatter and ants...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Here is a tip about feeders... galvanized feeders were completely untouched by beetles during testing... the slick surface made it hard for them to climb on, and the galvanization treatment may in fact have an effect on deterring shb.... we are preparing to test galvanized entrances next season... if they show promise, we will be offering them on our website and I will post instructions for building and using your own.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

I plan on having them up on stands to keep off ground away from ants and make it east to mow around. 

I use beetle barns with roach bait to keep SHB numbers down. Also 3 standard medium frames for nuc. These will be stronger than baby nuc and better able to fend off SHB. 

I have insulated tops with cloth inner covers, so feeding thru top not an option.

Only planning on needing to feed in late summer to get some queens for fall requeening. Not much flow here at that time.

Strength of hive is relative. I have used 5 frame deep nucs for mating nucs and had better than 80% acceptance. And they were really strong. 

Johnny


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## LT (Aug 17, 2006)

Anyone know where to buy some mini feeders?
We have ours on a wooden rail about 32 inches off the ground. Helps wifes back.
I use Russells scooter box. She makes me put mine on the ground.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

LT said:


> Anyone know where to buy some mini feeders?
> We have ours on a wooden rail about 32 inches off the ground. Helps wifes back.
> I use Russells scooter box. She makes me put mine on the ground.


We build our own. BTW, how are you liking that scooter box?  I have been sitting on those things my whole life.  Thinking about building some to sell... with and without the incubator insert that I added the design... Also thinking about offering mini nuc feeders...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, my bottoms will be syrup tight so I can do that, but will it require daily feeding?

In my experience mating nucs require feeding right at dark to prevent robbing, so, yes, you need to feed them every night during the time you're trying to get the queen cell accepted and her mated, which is pretty much all the time you're running them as mating nucs.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

We use feeders and only feed once when we first stock the nucs (usually March 1st), once 4 days after stocking, and then once more when we plant the second cell... We never really have any troubles with robbing, even though there are thousands of nucs in some mating yards... Having a good yard may have some effect on that though... the better the forage, the less they will need to rob... Also we place our nuc frames on hives when they are not in use, so when we stock the nucs, each one gets an empty frame for brood rearing and a frame of honey... With propper scheduling these nucs are ran all the way through mid October.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

ok so whats a scooter box sounds like something i need. probably beats and upside down nuc box to sit on and drag. or holes in the knees, lol


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

We like to feed mating nucs drivert sugar. It will not stimulate robbing and the bees take it up quickly and no feeder necessary.

"Strength of hive is relative. I have used 5 frame deep nucs for mating nucs and had better than 80% acceptance. And they were really strong."
Johnny 

Couldn't agree more. Very populous nucs are a great resource to stock other nucs or bolster nucs that failed to mate their queen. We actually ran many mating yards on a 42 day cycle last year by "milking brood" off them. One three frame western mating nuc unit that is really jamming can be used to start two more units if the timing is right and one is careful to balance the resources. It can take a few days to work through a large mating yard and by the time the all queens are caught and brood moved there always emergency cells started and I take it as a positive sign that they will accept my cell. I do not worry about adding a 10+ day old cells to a unit that has open emergency cells; however if they have capped cells things can get a little trickier. We try to stay away from baby nucs and short catch cycles so there is more time to evaluate the queen and more valuable brood is generated.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If there is a flow I don't feed. But it's when there isn't that feeding is an issue and, of course, robbing becomes more of an issue because of the dearth and because of the feeding.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Here is a Mini Hive top feeder

http://vlwbeesantu.shopfactory.com/contents/en-us/d7.html


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

swarm_trapper said:


> ok so whats a scooter box sounds like something i need. probably beats and upside down nuc box to sit on and drag. or holes in the knees, lol


Here is a scooter box... or what I call a queen stool. In the pic it is set up for catching only... which means that there are fresh empty queen cages and corks in the left hand pocket, hive tool and used cells and protectors are placed in the right hand pocket, and caught queens go in the hole in the middle (face down) to protect them from the bees.

I also have cell incubators that go in the right hand pockets for planting cells in the cool spring.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Broke-T said:


> I use beetle barns with roach bait to keep SHB numbers down. Also 3 standard medium frames for nuc. These will be stronger than baby nuc and better able to fend off SHB.
> 
> Johnny


Latest versions of ABJ and BC have articles about why you shouldn't use roach bait. I'd suggest looking into it.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

I have and I will take it over SHB any day.

Johnny


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

You'll choose dead bees, contaminated wax, contaminated honey, and contaminated pollen over SHB?

Brave man.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

Ask the queen producers in Hawaii that can't ship queens because the SHB wiped out there mating nucs.

Johnny


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## Matt Beekman (Dec 15, 2007)

When can I order my scooter box? Great design. I would like to order three.


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## LT (Aug 17, 2006)

Hey that box is just like ours! Got it from a man who might have let out bumble bees or hornets in a sheriffs office or police station for fun legend has it.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Ha!!! Sad thing is, that wasn't legend! The preacher actually brought that story up at his service... and even admitted that HE was one of the ones hiding around the corner laughing like crazy!! 

I miss those crazy stories everyday...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

LT said:


> Anyone know where to buy some mini feeders?


Here are some pics of the ones we make. This one is not dipped yet... We dip them in wax and they last a very, very long time. We are going to be selling these in lots of 20 or 100.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm sure that you use this kind of feeder over all the other choices for some very good reasons. Just wondering what they are. 

The 2 apparent shortcomings of frame feeders like this are that you have to open the hive to fill, and a few bees at least are going to drown. I guess it's strong points are that the feed is right in the nest where you want it, and a lot of bees can fed at one time.

It's cheap and easy compared to a top feeder, but less cheap and easy than a quart jar.

What's the main factor?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Well there are actually several other reasons as well... any spilt or dripped syrup on or around the nucs can incite robbing and shb, keep in mind that we stock these mating nucs in February, so there is not any real flow at first so a warmer afternoon can cause a war if they figure out that there is syrup in all of those barely protected boxes...

Also, we only fill these feeders a total of three times before they are pulled out and a frame of honey is put in their place (bringing the frame total per mini nuc to 3).... usually the honey on the inside of this frame is moved to the outside of the other outer frame by the bees, giving the full center frame and both insides of the outer frames for brood and pollen.

Also, we are in and out of these nucs constantly, so easy access without any chance of mess is a plus.

And lastly (aside from the points that you have already made), we run between 10k and 12k of these nucs each season... speed and uniform equipment is a must for cost effectiveness and scheduling.

We also use a smaller feeder like this that is made of galvanized steel and has a screen in it for bees to groom on.... the wooden ones have screen inserts as well.

Hope this helps!


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

It sure does. It's very helpful to get information directly from someone like yourself who has so much experience in the field of actually making a living working with bees. I don't see how you can go wrong by modeling your methods after someone who is already successful at what you are trying to do. 

I really appreciate that you are willing to be so helpful instead of guarding it all as trade secrets. So, thanks.

By the way though, what are the two little round holes for?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

You are very welcome. The little holes are entrances... even though they can get over the top to enter the feeder, the holes allow them do reach it easier in lower temps because they are positioned right where the clusters should be.

Thanks for bringing that up actually, that was another reason that I had forgotten to mention.. again, we stock these nucs in February, so a few freezing nights is very likely... the frame feeders in the center of the duplex nucs allows the bees heat factor to keep the syrup from freezing... 

My father also believed that it helped to keep the scent of the opposite queens from causing unseen stresses that could ultimately effect early season queens... he was probably right, as most will agree that early season queen quality is "hit and miss", but ours have always been excellent... I have always assumed that this was mostly due to breeders trying to mate queens too early, before they have enough mature drones available... but its most likely a combination of the two, and a little bit of a nutrition issue as well.

BTW, adding late drone tolerance and of course early build up to any selection criteria will benefit queen quality greatly. Drone tolerance was selected for a long time ago by several of the old "brass" of the industry... this was done to help the industry to get earlier starts and run longer seasons... it worked well and these traits were spread across the nation via these several large breeders for several years... descendants of those queens are still around, even though mites took the majority of them... I have seen a few threads this year from people that were wondering why they had drones in a colony in late December - mid January... I have many colonies that never evict their drones... that's also the reason I have kept so many hives on natural cell, it allows drones to be produced within the clusters due to mixed cell sizes.

Hope this helps!


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