# Frame Preferences



## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Please pardon my ignorance, but doesn't this block the bees from going around the outside edge of the frames?


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

They will also propalize them together top to bottom making them extreamly difficult to work.

Johnny


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I've never had a problem with the bottom bar assembly of my Kelley frames. Just like all mediums, or 8 frame hives, as long as there is a wheel or mouse trap people will try to reinvent or improve. I've not seen anything that I consider an improvement of the original langstroth hive that has been in use for decades. Just my 67 year old opinion. Sorry Joseph, but keep on trying!!!


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I've been using sets of frames with this design for more than three years now, the bees have neither shown any distress from being unable to get around the edges of the frames, nor have they propolized the end bars together so that they were difficult to work. They have made it easier to keep frame spacing appropriate - top to bottom. 

Of course it seems easy to poke fun at, and find fault with a different "mousetrap", especially if one never actually tries that different "mousetrap".

I do appreciate the feedback, but your critical points would carry more weight if you'd actually worked with frames of this design, as I have.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Joseph Clemens said:


> I do appreciate the feedback, but your critical points would carry more weight if you'd actually worked with frames of this design, as I have.


The frames look interesting. I'll be starting my yard in 2012, I'm a newbee, I ain't scared to try something new. I'm using all 8-frame equipment. Want my address?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

These frames wouldn't fit in my extractor as the reel fits with frame bottoms that are narrower than the tops.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Hey Joseph

Please sent me 10 of your modified frames so I can try them. Then i'll be able to offer a more valuable critique, after having used them for a summer.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Another consideration is that plastic one-piece frame/foundations in medium depth (which is, for all practical purposes, the only size frame I use), are generally built with end bars that are nearly just like this design, with only about an inch near the bottom narrower. This is virtually uniform between all the various manufacturers of one-piece plastic frames, though their deeper frames also appear to be likely similar to each other, having a narrowing of their end bars approximately two thirds - three quarters of the way down. Has anyone besides myself ever wondered why medium frames are designed disparate to the deeper frames? Why aren't plastic one-piece frames built/designed with end bars that are only different in length? Wouldn't it be appropriate to expect their only difference to be proportions? In other words I would expect that the bottom two thirds - three quarters of medium frames would also be narrower for the same reason that deep frames are designed that way. Since they're not, perhaps there is a different underlying reason why they're designed/built the way that they are.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> These frames wouldn't fit in my extractor as the reel fits with frame bottoms that are narrower than the tops.


Does that mean that the one-piece plastic frames in medium/shallow sizes, also will not fit in your extractor? Or, perhaps just narrowing the bottom inch or so would be enough?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Its hard to tell from this sketch what keeps the frames spaced apart. A conventional wooden or plastic frames use the side bars to provide proper spacing while allowing bees access through the top and around the sides (below the contact regions). Do you have a larger picture of this design?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Here is a pic/link to the complete design:

​
Side bar? I've only heard them called end bars.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

What if the end bars had an hour glass shape, so you get the best of both? More stable due to horizontal stops top and bottom and passage ways in the middle of the frame.
But harder to make.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Do you mean a design similar to this? -->

​

I haven't yet prototyped this design, but I did draw it up. I refrained from building this design, because I considered how bees might be pinched in this configuration.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Joseph Clemens;727382
Of course it seems easy to poke fun at said:


> Joseph,
> I did not mean to be critical. I was actually was pointing out that Kelleys frames haven't given me any problem. I am not a wood worker, I am a mechanic, and millwright. I can work with wood as well as steel, but I don't have the equipment. I have, and use often the carpenter tools to do construction, and if I were to build my own frames I would definitely use the end bar that you are using. It would be just so much simpler to make. Sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my intent.
> Brent Cook


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

valleyman,

It is good, I appreciate that so many people have taken an interest in this thread. No offense taken.

-----------------
Another issue that I've noticed is that sometimes bees are pinched/squished between end bars, variations in the thickness of end bars would seem to amplify this effect, while the end bars described in the initial post tend to reduce these incidents.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Do you mean a design similar to this?
> I haven't yet prototyped this design, but I did draw it up. I refrained from building this design, because I considered how bees might be pinched in this configuration.


Like you were inside my head. The main reason for that modification was to prevent the whole side bar from being propolized (which I know would be an issue in my hives).

I am not picturing how it would have a much higher rate of pinched bees than the straight end bars. What was your reasoning on why it would?

Thanks


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Imagine having one frame already immobile, inside a super, then sliding the next one into position. As the second one end bar edge slides into position there will be alignments where a narrower bar forms a wedge against the stationary bar, said wedge could snag any bee that happens to be in that position and pinch/crush it. Imagine the cattle guard on the front of vintage locomotives, designed to gently push cattle out and away from the front of the locomotive, now imagine how it would work if it were flipped over (upside-down). Yikes! Instead of a cattle guard it would be a cattle grabber - it might also have a tendency to lift the locomotive off the tracks.

For example:


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

I see, that makes sense, however is the risk grater than on the standard frames?
Thanks Dan


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I like the full length contact design, to eliminate sloshing of frames when moving! Suggestion: perhaps you could use a beveled edge (like those on used on Kelley frames) to minimize the contact area. This might reduce propolis build-up. I realize that you say you haven't had a problem, but I gotta believe that (perhaps in other regions) there's a potential for heavily glued together frames. Test market them to other areas and see what happens.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I think the risk of pinching honey bees is greater with the "hour glass" shape; even than the standard commercial wooden end bars. Since the standard wooden end bars usually have their shoulders cut with an almost 90 degree angle, their propensity to trap, pinch, and squish honey bees would be much less than end bars that naturally form more acute angles. Of course most any end bars can be held and positioned to create acute angles that would be more likely to injure or kill bees. Being careful to hold frames in an optimal alignment when positioning them into the supers can reduce injury to curious honey bee bystanders.


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## hystad (Jan 14, 2011)

The tappered bottom helps me get the last frame in the box when it gets tight. It wouldn't be a problem if I only ran 9 to a box. Adding a small chamfer to the bottom of the end bar would solve this problem.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I have a bunch of new frames waiting to be assembled that have modified edges to the end bars to reduce propolizing between frames. One edge of each end bar up in the wide part is cut triangularly so the ridge comes in contact with the flat of the adjacent frame.


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

To me as a newbee it is remarkable that an old timer keeping bees for almost 50 years does not falls into orthodoxy trap, but still has an open mind and tries to improve the "mouse trap".

I'd surely be willing to try those frames cause they seem to be simple and easy enough to construct by an average beek who makes own boxes etc.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Thanks pascopol, I try. 

Excellent idea, chamfer all the edges of the end bars so they look like this -->










It might be difficult to keep the frames properly aligned with each other, but it's worth a try if you're having trouble with propolis build-up.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I find that it is trouble keeping endbars with chamferred edges lined up right. I don't like them.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

As Solomon Parker has mentioned, frames with chamfered end bar edges can be difficult to maintain in alignment. I certainly hesitate using them for that very reason. For them to work tolerances of supers and frames would need to be much closer -- that seems like an unnecessary bother. Since I haven't had any difficulty with straight end bars being propolized together, so I'll likely just stay with the simpler end bars (for frames that I make, myself).


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## Beeken (Apr 30, 2011)

May help winter cluster stay warmer with ends of frames completely closed up.
Would there be room for bees to go between end bars on 9 frames in 10 frame box [in honey supers]?
Good luck, Ken


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

That's how I built my latest batch of medium frames, with the exception of the bottom bar. The thought of only having to make a dado on the top of the end bar and not the bottom makes me happy. I have a bunch of extra end bars cut to width... think i'll give it a try. I probably wont run a kerf down the middle of the bottom bars for a guide though, but I like the idea. I missed the dimensions on the bottom bars, Im using 7/8" top bars and already have stock ripped to 7/8" that could be used.

One thing though, I can't give any feedback until next season  Nice idea though, I have honestly contemplated it in the past to cut down on the machining time of end bars.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I maybe wasn't clear. Only one side of the two on each end bar is chamfered on the frames waiting to be assembled. As you look at a frame from one end, the left side of the end bar closest to you is chamfered. The other side is squared, like all other frames. So you align one chamfered edge with a square edge.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Kieck said:


> I maybe wasn't clear. Only one side of the two on each end bar is chamfered on the frames waiting to be assembled. As you look at a frame from one end, the left side of the end bar closest to you is chamfered. The other side is squared, like all other frames. So you align one chamfered edge with a square edge.


Those sound like Kelley frames. I've recently put together about 150 of them so far and have been dropping them into Rossman 8-frame medium boxes. I can see exactly what folks have mentioned about them causing problems keeping them in alignment. For a large commercial operation this might be a big issue, for a small guy like me I don't think it'll be too much of a headache. The bevels will "slide" past the flat backside of it's neighboring frame and somewhat "bind".

...and my education continues. 
Ed


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Joseph,
Way to go, I like your thinking outside the box!
Good luck trying to convince Beeks that they could actually change or try new things! 
I have some frames with the solid end bars just like you pictured that I bought from an old retired beek years ago. 
He told me that it sure was easier to build his frames with the solid ends (he built all of his own equip) and he had been using them for years, he did use them in his honey supers only and not his brood boxes.
I think they would work in the brood area just as well and I really like the idea of NO Frame Slap (swinging back and forth) when I am moving bees on rough ground. (they sure can get PO'd and are not easy to work until they settle down for a day or two).
I have noticed some propolis build up along the entire edge on the solid end bars, but they usually just come right apart with no problems as it is just a thin bead at the edge. I believe if you would chamfer the edges that they would try to fill the whole gap with a larger amount than the thin line I see on my solid end bars that I currently use, this in turn would make things a lot more difficult to get them apart and could possibly damage the end bars! ?
And Yes, I believe you would gain some extra R-Value on the insulation with solid end bars for wintering, how could you not, as it is an extra layer of wood! 
Best of Luck! Mtn. Bee


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Kieck said:


> I maybe wasn't clear. Only one side of the two on each end bar is chamfered on the frames waiting to be assembled. As you look at a frame from one end, the left side of the end bar closest to you is chamfered. The other side is squared, like all other frames. So you align one chamfered edge with a square edge.


That's what I said when I mentioned make the chamfer like Kelley's frames. With a chamfer on ONLY one side of each end bar, you don't have alignment problems.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Excellent idea, chamfer all the edges of the end bars so they look like this -->
> 
> [snip]
> 
> but it's worth a try if you're having trouble with propolis build-up.


I believe you would end up with even more propolis having chamfered edges like your drawing. It gives the bees a nice V groove to fill in, unlike two square edges butted together.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Barry said:


> I believe you would end up with even more propolis having chamfered edges like your drawing. It gives the bees a nice V groove to fill in, unlike two square edges butted together.


AGREE with Barry!
It gives a nice V-groove to lay the bead of caulk. (propolis) 

Propolis build up is minimal on the solid end bars that I already use as it can only be placed on the outside as the rest of the edge is tight with the next frame!


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

It sounds like Barry and Mtn. Bee are on the right track there. The prototype frames I already made aren't glued together with propolis any worse than any other frame design, and it does sound like making more room for propolis could aggravate the situation, not to mention increase the work. Personally I plan to make more foundationless frames like these and just stick with the flat End Bar edges.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Joseph Clemens said:


> It sounds like Barry and Mtn. Bee are on the right track there. The prototype frames I already made aren't glued together with propolis any worse than any other frame design, and it does sound like making more room for propolis could aggravate the situation, not to mention increase the work. Personally I plan to make more foundationless frames like these and just stick with the flat End Bar edges.


Sounds Great Joseph!
Please keep us informed on your findings/results?
Thanks! Mtn. Bee


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Is your frame any different from a Manley frame?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

That depends on the design details that define the various frames, some details are different from some that I have seen, but overall they are very similar - and, of course these are Langstroth dimensions.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Kieck,

The problem I always seem to have with using the commercial frames with one edge of their End Bars beveled, like Walter T. Kelley's, is that I sometimes forget to always assemble each and every frame with the same End Bar orientation -- several orientation options are possible, but only two are optimal, but mixtures of those two options are not.

Here is an illustration of the assembly possibilities ->








​
If I had always assembled, each and every frame of this design, as in the first example or the last example they would all work well with each other, but having assembled many of these type frames through the years, not always with the same end bar orientation, the odd orientations are a little bit calamitous.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Joseph, I think there is a standard orientation and that it would be the example on the right. "right away" as one poster used to remember it. Having the bevels may not be enough benefit to warrant the time of making them and keeping track of it at assembly time.


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## blainenay (Oct 14, 2011)

I've made my own frames for nearly 50 years. The design came from the 4-H leader who got me started in beekeeping way back then. They aren't self-spacing, but they're easy to make. At 1" wide, they allow for beespace all the way around. I assemble with TiteBond II glue and 1-1/4" nails. I have a diagram of the frame at http://www.IronBee.us/PDF/langstroth frame plans simplified.pdf.


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