# I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

In another thread, recently closed (due to acrimony, I suppose) an interesting contention was made. In short, the complaint was that treatment free beekeepers pose a risk to those who treat, because when the untreated hives collapse, they make it harder for nearby treaters to control mites and other pathogenic organisms.

The reason I don't understand this complaint is that it seems to ignore the evidence from the BeeInformed survey that indicates that treated hives collapse at similar rates to untreated. I could understand the complaint if treatment were able to prevent colony loss, but obviously, it doesn't. Even if you find the BeeInformed survey a dubious resource, just reading the news will provide plenty of examples of commercial beekeepers who treat and still lose large percentages of their colonies. 

If collapsing colonies pose a threat to those with healthy hives, then logically, the risk would be far greater for those who don't treat, because they are so greatly outnumbered by those who do, and non-treaters also have to deal with a local genetic overload of less-resistant bees.

I'd like to see this discussed in a civil manner... and hope that is possible.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

Most people ignore the obvious when treating any livestock...if you keep the weak alive you are in effect breeding for weakness. If you keep your stock held to harsh conditions you will be breeding for strength. So ask yourself are your breeding strong bees or strong mites and pathogens?


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

The reality is that there is probably truth to both arguments. Unless you live in a vacuum, or artificially inseminate your queens, your hives genetics will be influenced by the surrounding drones. In my case there are bees from the south in my area, as well as treaters, and non treaters. All of those hives will likely influence how I am able to keep bees. 

When a hive collapses and mites hitch a ride on the robbers it may be possible that the sudden increased mite load could wipe out a "resistant" hive. But this is what would happen in nature, so it is very hard for me to state that others need to keep their bees away from my bees (whether I decide to treat or not). What wouldn't happen in nature is 25+ hives in a single field, or the density of hives in any area due to farming or hobby ownership. 

I am getting to the point where I think the only way we could do large scale non treatment, without heavy hive manipulation or isolated yards, we would need to embrace africanized bees. 

My point is, we are probably all doing something a bit wrong, so we just need to deal with it and come up with a solution to work it out with our current situations instead of expecting others to conform to our ideals.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

Its definitely a little of column A, little of column B scenario.

On one hand, a *SUCCESSFUL* treatment free hive is going to be what we all really need, so that treatments will not be necessary in the first place and we all have healthier, stronger bees. Until you get to that point though, you have two hives that are essentially the same, one getting treated, one left to suffer from infestations. The infested hive helps build up pest populations that can then potentially transfer to surrounding hives.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Edymnion said:


> I Until you get to that point though, you have two hives that are essentially the same, one getting treated, one left to suffer from infestations. The infested hive helps build up pest populations that can then potentially transfer to surrounding hives.


Well, this is why I'm having trouble understanding this point of view. Implicit in what you say is the assumption that the treated hive is not suffering from infestations. But something is killing treated hives too, at rates not too different from untreated hives, according to the BeeInformed survey. 

To be fair, I think you might be able to make an argument that when the treated hive collapses, it might be from the toxic effects of treatment (queen loss, etc.) rather than from mite load, and so when the hive is robbed out, there would be fewer mites to infest the robbers. I don't know if that's true, but it's at least plausible, so far as I can tell.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

rhaldridge said:


> I'd like to see this discussed in a civil manner


Based on the subject matter (pitting TF and non-TF beekeepers against each other) I'd say you have a 0% chance of accomplishing this.

You could get a bunch of treatment answers with no TF replies, or a bunch of TF answers with no treatment replies, and that will likely end in a civil manner (at least possible). But you wouldn't get much of an answer to your question (at least an unbiased one).


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Treatment free does not mean disease/pest/pathogen free.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

my understanding ray is that mite transfer between colonies occurs primarily when a strong hive robs a collapsing hive.

so it doesn't matter if the hive is treated or not, if it is collapsing and measures aren't taken to prevent robbing the mites could be spread to nearby colonies.

i the criticism has been directed more at the hard bond approach than treatment free per se.

bottom line, it's just about being responsible tf or not. 

here's an old thread in which this got hashed out pretty good:


http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ping-the-risks&highlight=treatment+free+risks


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I think that the premise that treated and untreated hives survival rate is the same is also a stretch. First it is a "survey" not "study", as you noted. I participated in this survey so we can use me as an example. It is true that my untreated hives survived the same as my treated ones. I think that I treated about 10 hives last August. All of those treated hives had overwintered the year before. I had 12, I think, that I did not treat. Mostly the reason that I didn't treat them was that they came from nucs that I made up with new queen cells, so they all had about 3 weeks or so of no brood. I don't treat first year hives. I don't count mites in them. I didn't lose any hives last year.

So while it is true that my untreated hives had an equal survival rate as my treated ones, it is a big stretch to say that untreated hives will survive at the same rate as treated ones. 

The other factor is that commercial migratory bees will have any more stresses than my babied hobby bees. The commercial bees will probably be treated but again will have many stresses that untreated ones won't.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

rhaldridge said:


> Well, this is why I'm having trouble understanding this point of view. Implicit in what you say is the assumption that the treated hive is not suffering from infestations. But something is killing treated hives too, at rates not too different from untreated hives, according to the BeeInformed survey.


That may or may not be true. But as others have stated, a strong hive will rob a collapsing one for it's stores. The assumption is that a treatment free hive that is collapsing is more likely to have a pest infestation like mites that the robbing bees will then pick up and transfer back to their parent hive.

It has nothing to do with failure rates for treated hives (which could be due to completely unrelated causes, correlation does not imply causation), but in the safe assumption that strong hives rob weak hives, and many pests will transfer from the dying hive to the strong one to perpetuate the cycle. The conditional assumption is that the collapsing hive is the untreated one, and that the robbing hive is treated, simply due to the assumption that even a genetically weak hive can be propped up by treatments, meaning it will be more likely to do well than an early generation treatmentless hive will.

So yes, there is a risk to the treatment folks hives from untreated hives, if said untreated hives are allowed to have rampant infestations that bring said hive to it's knees and allows it to then be robbed. The same thing can happen the other direction as well (where an untreated hive is infected from a failing treated hive), but it is less likely.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*my understanding ray is that mite transfer between colonies occurs primarily when a strong hive robs a collapsing hiv*e.

How long does it take for the bees of one yard to find and then rob out a hive from another yard? I'm curious about the bee behavior here. Are bees in a yard and from other yards aware of all the other hives? Are they constantly checking other hives for weakness and potential to rob or is it more happenstance that the bees come along and find an empty to rob?

The further point is that unless there is a pretty quick response time wouldn't the apiary owner notice a dead out? If so is not the best course of action to close it up to stop robbing and spread of mites/disease or if they feel their is no threat to simply place the boxes on another hive? 

If I had a dead out and was concerned about such things I would not want feral or bees from other yards coming into my hives. If there was enough honey in the hive to rob I wouldn't want it taken by another yard either. 

Seems to me the "Best practice" is to keep an eye on your hives and when you see robbing or even a weak hive, close it up or shut it down. Then it's a moot discussion, no? 

~Matt


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

MJuric said:


> *my understanding ray is that mite transfer between colonies occurs primarily when a strong hive robs a collapsing hiv*e.
> 
> How long does it take for the bees of one yard to find and then rob out a hive from another yard? I'm curious about the bee behavior here. Are bees in a yard and from other yards aware of all the other hives? Are they constantly checking other hives for weakness and potential to rob or is it more happenstance that the bees come along and find an empty to rob?


During robbing season, yes, pretty much, other bees are testing for weakness constantly.

"The further point is that unless there is a pretty quick response time wouldn't the apiary owner notice a dead out?" Going by what I read on Beesource, a lot of them don't notice till after all the action is over. See all those "what happened to my hive" type threads.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Edymnion said:


> So yes, there is a risk to the treatment folks hives from untreated hives, if said untreated hives are allowed to have rampant infestations that bring said hive to it's knees and allows it to then be robbed. The same thing can happen the other direction as well (where an untreated hive is infected from a failing treated hive), but it is less likely.


I guess I don't understand why it's less likely. I don't know how to demonstrate this apart from surveys like the BeeInformed one, but my impression is that treated hives outnumber untreated ones by a huge amount. As an example, suppose in my area, there are 100 treated hives and 10 untreated ones. If half the untreated ones collapse and only a quarter of the treated ones collapse, then 5 untreated hives will be robbed out... and 25 treated ones. That's a situation in which the treated yards contribute 5 times as much to the area pathogen load as the untreated ones.

(I realize this has nothing to do with the merits of treating or not treating, I'm just trying to get a picture of reality here. How much of a threat do untreated colonies pose to the treated colonies around them? Or is it the other way around?)


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i think it may have to do with the number of colonies in a yard, and whether or not they are observed on a daily basis.

i had two hives this year that i inspected after noticing just a little fighting at the entrances. there wasn't any all out robbing frenzy going on. turns out they were queenless after failing to make a new queen post swarm.

it's not hard to imagine that in a large commercial operation with hundreds if not thousands of hives it might not be possible to catch every robbing incident in time to prevent it. treatments can fail, and mites can be spread.

on the other hand, for the hard core bond keeper, robbing is going to be the inevitable result of a collapsing colony.

and no one can stop it when we're talking about an unmanaged feral hive crashing and getting robbed out. 

my view is that we all should be considerate of other colonies and exercise due diligence to prevent crashes and rob outs when we can.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

if there's any bees around within foraging distance robbing can start quickly. You will constantly see scouts in front of your hives in summer just testing the waters. If there's anything to rob nearby it gets even worse which is why people discourage open feeding because it sets off a frenzy.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well I think the answer is it goes both ways. If I am running treatment free hives I certainly wouldn't want a large apiary nearby run poorly and being treated but not properly. Likewise beekeepers who are treating minimally and trying their best to do everything right may not appreciate a "Bond" apiary next door suffering 80% losses and being left to die, of whatever, and be robbed.

For me, I've spent my life being surrounded by beekeepers who are lax on disease management. However I deal with it. Just, AFB is something that really bugs me if I get that due to someone else's negligence, nothing is worse than burning your own hive.

Think you'd have to say it goes both ways.

Bear in mind RHAldridge also that the accusation you complain of was made in response to a counter accusation made the other way, and it was not in the treatment free section. The thread had to be locked because it was derailed by someone pushing his own agenda and had moved far away from the actual thread topic.

A thread like this one is only designed to pit one group against the other. To me, if there are problems caused to a beekeeper by a neighboring beekeeper, I think it's better to assess it on a case by case basis rather than categorise everyone and then try to start something.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I think part of it has to do with how people say to get there. Typically TF beeks are staunch advocates of the bond method and believe this is the only true way to be Treatment Free or obtain treatment free bees which is not the case of course. Anyone can select for treatment free bees by not treating, whether you let the hive die out in the end is up to you.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

And something I have wondered a good deal about: what thought is being given to the density of bees and apiaries for a given area of forage.

Will the growing "popularity" of backyard beekeeping (perhaps in some way prompted by anxious news reports on the general health of bees) lead to more hives/bees/acre?

And what is the optimal carrying capacity for any area, or classes of forage for honey bees?

I am univeristy-trained in agronomy and horticulture. A single fairly isolated specimen or small group of anything may survive quite well, whereas larger stands, herds, colonies, fields, etc. will be constantly under seige because of the simple density and attractiveness to pests and diseases. In my farming practices (veg. and small fruits) I often see this effect at work.

Although I've seen almost no direct references to it, the modern practice of huge-scale migratory beekeeping would surely to serve to concentrate, and then disperse any bee diseases and pests on a continental-wide scale. Certainly far faster and far beyond what normal, unassisted, bee transmission or contact would be.

Perhaps _some_ of the success of the TF apiaries is due to their relative isolation from other honey bees, and conversely _some_ of the persistent need for treatment of treated colonies is due to the high presence of vectors of bees pests and diseases.

And in both cases conscientious beekeepers of both types are merely reacting to their local conditions, as best they can.

If anyone knows of studies related to bee/apiary densities, I would be very interested to know about them.

Certainly speaking as very new beekeeper (of the barnyard, not sideline or commercial variety), I can see that keeping bees, (if you catch the bug) could certainly be very more-ish. I have three hives and I am thinking of making more next year. But I am mindful that in my enthusiasm I could very well tip the balance and find myself under more pressure from pests than I am now.

Enj.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

varroa destructor is a pretty dumb parasite if you think about it, after all killing off its host isn't exactly in its best interest.

it depends on the robbing nature of the bees for its survival. 

preventing robbing and spreading to nearby colonies is something we all can do.

as time goes on, and as v. destructor and the honeybee evolve toward host/parasite equilibrium there will be less dead outs.

in the mean time we can select for less destructive mites by not letting them spread.

this is easier said than done. for example i'm not sure what i would do if i found a hive so infested mites with as winter approaches that it would be sure to die. i am leaning toward putting it in the freezer, killing the bees and mites, and salvaging the comb and stores.


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

The difficulty with science and bees is numbers and money. You have sixty thousand individuals bringing back to one house near anything from the surrounding 28 square miles. Add a few more hives into the area and the possibilities become greater than the lottery. No control group exists. Add the comparison between the money spent on research to the money spent on chasing a salad bug. What we're left with is any idea can be supported but few can be substantiated.

I do know that fighting among ourselves is a great way to keep the pesticides flowing.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I think that we are all aware that you can get hygienic queens/bees of many different strains and degrees of hygienic inheritance.

No fellas, TFBers don't all rely on the "bond" method to get resistant bees.

I've used VSH, and am now trying BeeWeavers.

BeeWeavers have an interesting mix in their background, including AHB.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Enjambres has the right idea. It is alot easier to keep 5 hives alive than 30 or 50 in one spot. If the commercial people are even with the non treatment, then they are doing better. Find the experiment on the danish island. The colony count dropped from a commercial level to a hobbiest level, then stabilized.

Back in the 30's and 40's, it was professional to keep commercial yards 4 miles apart to prevent AFB transfers. With the invention and use of Sulfa, Terramycin, etc, that got forgotten. We have a direct correlation between AFB and hobbiest beekeepers in the area. Often they do not 
spot the AFB, the colony dies, and our hives rob them out. 

With all the new diseases, which are easilty spread by migrating beekeepers, it would be nice to have a return of the gentleman's agreement of 4 miles. 

Crazy Roland


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

WLC the Bond method gets all the headlines, but your approach seems the most logical. I to have BWeaver bees, two hives. I also have , or had one HoneyBeeGenetics hive, but I killed that queen, just clumsy Newbie manipulation. Replaced her with a local queen. I also have one captured swarm queen. I plan to get some Russian hives soon. Why not use the already mite resistant bees? Seems the simple way to go, the quick fix, easy. I also do mite counts and have set up a method to weigh active hives. Get information early so I can react. TF Bonders restrict their choices it seems to me, and that is my complaint with them. As you say, there are other options.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

rhaldridge said:


> I guess I don't understand why it's less likely. I don't know how to demonstrate this apart from surveys like the BeeInformed one, but my impression is that treated hives outnumber untreated ones by a huge amount.


read dr. tews article in bee culture this month, I don't remember his exact words, but he say's he was amazed when he asked clubs that he was speaking at, that the majority of people say they do no treat. We have a new club this year in the Syracuse area, and in talking to people I would speculate that the majority either are not going to treat, or are not sure if they are going to treat. also from what I have heard from beesource and bee-l many commercial beeks don't respond to the survey's and really don't know how many hives they have or lost because they don't know when to start counting.

I participated in a local N.Y. survey last year, when I looked at the results, the largest beek reporting had just over a 100 hives, heck I can show you within 5 miles of my house, 10 yards that have 40 or more hives in them, all owned by two local commercial guys. so my "guess" is the data in the surveys is not representative of the real world around here.

I agree with what squarepeg said "so it doesn't matter if the hive is treated or not, if it is collapsing and measures aren't taken to prevent robbing the mites could be spread to nearby colonies." it's when the bees are ignored, and my treated bees get multiple injections of mites that cost me time, money and loss of bees and honey that I get upset.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

Pipiyolti said:


> Most people ignore the obvious when treating any livestock...if you keep the weak alive you are in effect breeding for weakness. If you keep your stock held to harsh conditions you will be breeding for strength. So ask yourself are your breeding strong bees or strong mites and pathogens?


Also, most people who "breed" ignore the obvious fact that professional breeders understand. Heritability is based on phenotypic variation and what proportion of it is genetic. In order to make progress in selection, you must have high phenotypic varariation, in other words a large population size. In corn breeding I start with 10,000 new lines every year and will be happy in 5 years if 2 or 3 survive. If I were only starting with 20 or so (like most back yard breeders) what would be my chances for success? Unless you have the capacity to look at thousands of queens every year and innoculate with mites, and/or access to molecular markers for the trait of interest your probability of finding the proberbial needle in a haystack is pretty small. You are most likely just looking at random error rather than genetic improvement.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ping-the-risks&highlight=treatment+free+risks


That was an encouragingly civil discussion!

What I got from it was that there would be little friction between TF and non-TF beekeepers if both were responsible about not allowing collapsing hives to to attract robbers.

What I didn't understand was the assumption that this was more likely to happen with treatment free beekeepers. Later discussion in this thread brought up the question of population density, which would seem to be a problem to be found more among commercial beekeepers (who mostly treat) than among treatment free beekeepers (who are mostly hobbyists and smallltimers.)

Are there really a whole lot of hardcore Bond beekeepers? I'm not treating, but I can't see allowing the resources of a failing hive to go to waste. I have one hive that's struggled all summer. It was originally a Wolf Creek package, superceded a couple times, ended up queenless and developed laying workers. I've been giving them a frame of brood and eggs every week for 6 weeks now, and if they don't come up with a queen pretty soon, I'm going to break up their resources and use them to start some new nucs.

As a hobbyist, each hive is precious to me, and I expect that's the common sentiment among backyard beekeepers, in whose ranks most treatment free beekeepers will be found. Treatment free beekeepers own a tiny fraction of the hives in this country, and yet you still see folks trying to make them a significant source of villainy-- you can see the tendency in this thread. 

Again, I just don't understand this. Even if you assume that treated hives survive at higher rates than untreated, those treated hives are still going to be a bigger threat to the untreated hives than the untreated hives are going to be to the treated hives-- just because there are so many more treated hives than untreated.

When those treated hives collapse from a mite overload and are robbed out by bees from untreated hives, that's probably going to turn out worse for the untreated bee than in the reverse situation.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

hilreal said:


> Also, most people who "breed" ignore the obvious fact that professional breeders understand. Heritability is based on phenotypic variation and what proportion of it is genetic. In order to make progress in selection, you must have high phenotypic varariation, in other words a large population size. In corn breeding I start with 10,000 new lines every year and will be happy in 5 years if 2 or 3 survive. If I were only starting with 20 or so (like most back yard breeders) what would be my chances for success? Unless you have the capacity to look at thousands of queens every year and innoculate with mites, and/or access to molecular markers for the trait of interest your probability of finding the proberbial needle in a haystack is pretty small. You are most likely just looking at random error rather than genetic improvement.


I find it amusing that you used "maze" as a reference for your argument. Something cultivated from what we would consider a weed by people who were in tune with natural cycles and not scientific papers and lack of intuition.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> In short, the complaint was that treatment free beekeepers pose a risk to those who treat, because when the untreated hives collapse, they make it harder for nearby treaters to control mites and other pathogenic organisms.
>The reason I don't understand this complaint is that it seems to ignore the evidence from the BeeInformed survey that indicates that treated hives collapse at similar rates to untreated

Exactly. I think it is an erroneous assumption.

>Implicit in what you say is the assumption that the treated hive is not suffering from infestations.

Which is patently not true.

>Treatment free does not mean disease/pest/pathogen free. 

Treated does not mean disease/pest/pathogen free.

>What I didn't understand was the assumption that this was more likely to happen with treatment free beekeepers

It is a world view. If they did not have that world view they would not be treating. But I do think the assumption is erroneous.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm

In reality what is a constant threat is the continued propogation of weak genetics that can't survive being propped up by artificial means, and "super mites" who can breed fast enough to overcome treatments... these are not coming from the treatment free hives...


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

TF and Treating Beekeepers are co-evolving -- just like the parasite and host. 

The reservoir of TF and feral hives allows drug resistance to be overcome, by breeding the suseptible strains back into the commercial hives. Amitraz-resistant Varroa was reported almost immediately, but it is a genetically unfavored trait in the mites, and non-treated Varroa replaces the resistant ones, if a sufficient reservior of non-resistance exsists. 

As I noted elsewhere, maintaining a "reservior" of resistance in the crop was part of the initial plan for BT Corn and Soy. 

A forward thinking Commercial keeper would ring his yards with feral hives -- these would maintain amitraz and fluvinate NON-resistant genes in the wild Varroa, and the non-resistant types would introgress into the managed colonies preventing the resistant types from overwhelming the drug. 

The hobby keepers are providing a service to the commercial by maintaining hives with populations of non-resistant Varroa. 

Varroa doesn't kill directly, but is a vector for the lethal virus load. Hypo-virulent virus adaptation seems unlikely to develop. DWV is evidently a weak virus and has a long history in North America (so has reached a natural equilibrium level), but is the major symptom of Varroa affected hives in my area. I cannot model further hypovirulence in the virus when horizontal transmission of DWV has so few barriers.

One needs to separate the goal of Treatment Free husbandry from the backyard hobby meilieu. If the goal is TF, then challenging hives with disease, selecting the most resistant, and breeding those queens is a long-term, laborious and *LARGE SCALE* undertaking. It is large scale because it requires isolation and saturation to prevent the bees which are promiscuous, out-crossing flying insects from simply blending into the background genotype. Backyard keepers are embedded in their landscape, and adaptation will not be accomplished on that local scale (in my landscape). 

Some of the TF advocates might live in a "bee desert", and the reduced density of feral and commercial colonies might allow inadvertent semi-inbred and beneficial lines to develop. My own immediate landscape has about 2 colonies per acre around all my outyards, and the wild type is simply going to re-assert in any uncontrolled outcrossing scheme.

Directed selection is long-term because the generation time of bees is relatively long, disease expression is delayed, and inbreeding is a genuine issue. A selected graft + outcrossing with non-related drones (per the Russian Queen model) is the best approach.
This requires *isolation, saturation and exchange of selected drone colonies.*

Resistance is not binary (like live/dead) but is measured on a relative scale. A backyard keeper might have a nearly perfect genotype, but that hive might still (and easily) succumb. The genotype will be lost in an uncontrolled out-cross. All the effort and lineage of that genotype is lost if the colony succumbs, and in the outcross you reset the selection clock back towards the background genotype.

A far better approach is to make a rational assessment of health and vigor and propagate those colonies. Letting colonies die is wasteful and inefficient in the extreme. Selecting the breeding colonies by *quantifying the traits* and managing queen production will be the approach that creates a "hobbyist" bee type.

The SW already knows what a "survivor-type" is----- it is AHB. AHB have higher fecundity -- they swarm continually. Swarms are mite reduced for their initial build up due to the brood break. The swarming type is going to replace (in the wild) the type where swarming has been selected against. 

Beekeeping with AHB is NO FUN. It is doable, but is a constant struggle. The "Bond" advocates are setting themselves up to be the promoters of AHB. This is totally unnecessary because a rational selection model exists that would prevent the AHB genotype from being favored.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

It is insane to think a person can create a better model than one that exist within a suitable area in a region and create a "breed" of honeybee for the masses. Adaption happens first, before any succession occurs. I think it is rather presumptuous to believe the honeybee passes nothing more than a genetic code to the next generation. The model you describe has only ONE outcome.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Pipi,
I have no idea what you are arguing for. Evolution/adaption/selection happens to genotypes. Transmission of "acquired" traits is a LaMarkian fairy tale, or soviet Lysenko ideology. 
Bee's have some epi-genetics, in that hives have multiple fathers, and surviving bees may favor one father over others. 
Yes, selective breeding, as per domestication of wheat, creation of Hopi corn, and any other example, is the efficient and successful approach to genotype change. In a promiscuous, outcrossing, flying insect - free breeding will revert to the basal genotype of a region.

An argument can be made about whether local races exist in the homogenous agricultural landscape with migratory populations. An argument can be made if the recognized local races (eg. AHB in the South-west) is a trend to be supported or resisted.

Organisms don't acquire traits, they inherit them.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

There you go with the typical response anthropomorphizing the bee. Do you really think the hive consist of nothing more than the honey bee?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Well, Pipi -- do tell me what the hive consists of. 
Are you arguing for a ecosystem of organisms, or some sort of divine essence.

I will find your answer instructive.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> One needs to separate the goal of Treatment Free husbandry from the backyard hobby meilieu. If the goal is TF, then challenging hives with disease, selecting the most resistant, and breeding those queens is a long-term, laborious and *LARGE SCALE* undertaking. It is large scale because it requires isolation and saturation to prevent the bees which are promiscuous, out-crossing flying insects from simply blending into the background genotype. Backyard keepers are embedded in their landscape, and adaptation will not be accomplished on that local scale (in my landscape).
> 
> Some of the TF advocates might live in a "bee desert", and the reduced density of feral and commercial colonies might allow inadvertent semi-inbred and beneficial lines to develop. My own immediate landscape has about 2 colonies per acre around all my outyards, and the wild type is simply going to re-assert in any uncontrolled outcrossing scheme..


Interesting post, as always, but I think one of your basic assumptions, if I'm reading you correctly, is in error. You seem to believe that genetics is the primary factor in the ability of bees to coexist with mites in a stable manner.

Since smalltime treatment free beekeepers do in fact exist, and prosper, even in places with substantial commercial presence, how can this be plausibly explained, other than by factors not directly related to genetics?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

rhaldridge,

Randy Oliver is reporting successful small-time keepers. There is annecdotal self-reporting on this forum of success. Myself, I lost hives in 1990-2, but recently a full apiary loss doesn't seem likely. I live in an area with high numbers of feral bees, but swarms of these bees hived into an outyard (and left untreated) show heavy DWV by the second year. So in my local case, local feral bees have no particular resistance, but there does seem to be a rebound in general vigor and the population of bee trees seems to be fully saturated. AHB genetics for rapid swarm and colonization might be the central effect.

One of the most vociferous "Bond" method keepers on this forum has 10 or 11 years experience. It appears he has lost his colonies twice in 8 years, or about 3-4 years per cycle. His experience is very similar to what I observe.

I am in touch with many novice backyard keepers. Most of them will not treat because of ideology and someone or something they read about on the internet.

They have great luck the first year. The bees grow like gang-busters. All winter long they harangue me about their miracle "system". The second year, they consider themselves veteran keepers and promote their system to anyone who will listen. Unfortunately, the 2nd year their hives don't thrive -- and they blame the weather, neonictinoids, chem-trails or my bad attitude. The third year, the hives are empty in the spring, or die off after swarming, or some such ending. 

Then I hear from them about CCD, or pesticides, or non-local adaptation, or evil sugar syrup -- anything except taking an actual assay of the mites. 

Often these 3rd year hobby hives stand empty and folorn at the end of the garden, until given to someone else or scrapped. You don't hear about all those failed keepers because they no longer inhabit cy-bee-space.

Some of these 3rd year keepers have been bitten by the vocation, and have learned to graft queens and make splits. This means they can make up their losses without considering if their "system" is valid. The initial system selection was driven by ideology or naive adoption of some promoted idea or other. The memory of the first year success and gang-buster growth dominates, and the later declines and losses are ignored or suppressed.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Of course there are legitimate TFBers out there who split to replace any losses while not resorting to treatments.

MDA splitter is one of the more widely known methodologies.

It doesn't rely on the premise of starting with resistant stock. It uses the basic management technique of brood breaks and multiple operations.

Half the operation is for production, the other half for increases/replacements.

But, you still don't use 'chemicals'.

JW, we are a MOSAIC of TFBers.

For instance, I also resort to probiotics.

I prefer the term 'chemical free' to TF anyhow. Although, I'm more like a 'food grade' type.

As long as I don't have to use PPE to put treatments in my colonies, I'm more than happy.

If I lose colonies, oops!, I guess I'll need to order new ones.

Sort of like the way I got the ones before.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> Some of these 3rd year keepers have been bitten by the vocation, and have learned to graft queens and make splits. This means they can make up their losses without considering if their "system" is valid. The initial system selection was driven by ideology or naive adoption of some promoted idea or other. The memory of the first year success and gang-buster growth dominates, and the later declines and losses are ignored or suppressed.


Well, I'm a first year keeper, and I've learned to make splits. I started with one hive, bought another package (which did poorly) caught a swarm, made a couple splits, bought in a BeeWeaver queen (unfortunately superceded) and I don't see why any of this makes my "system" (such as it is) invalid. I now have 8 hives. All good beekeepers have to make increase, including the ones who treat. If you have to compare treatment versus non-treatment, it seems only fair to compare apples to apples. Do you feel that those who treat and make up their losses are also unable to determine if their system is valid?

Again, I think a problem in your arguments is that they seem to rely entirely on genetics. You may recall that Solomon said that he had discovered that a large commercial operation had been going on quite near his yard. To me that was an indication that his cultural practices were more important than the genetics of his bees.

To be fair, I think also that there probably has been some selection in the population-at-large, despite treatment. Those who treat still lose a lot of hives; those that survive are the basis for increase for operations that raise their own bees. I would not be surprised to learn that bees in general are more resistant to mites and mite-borne diseases than they were 20 years ago, which may account for some of the successes of treatment free beekeepers.

There is certainly an academic impulse to deny the existence of successful treatment free beekeepers, or to assign them special circumstances (better climate, better forage, etc.) I saw a particularly annoying statement in the new Bee Culture by Jennifer Berry. I'm sure she's a nice enough person, but her closing remarks were staggeringly condescending. "If your bees are hungry, feed them. If they are overrun by mites, treat them. Your bees are your responsibility. If you refuse to feed or take care of them because it's somewhat unnatural, then don't become a beekeeper. It's not fair to the bees.

Take care!"

Yes I will. I'll take care not to take seriously anyone who does not accept even the possibility of successful beekeeping without miticides. Even if you are limited in your access to information regarding treatment free success stories, how could any researcher worth her salt ignore the example of BeeWeaver, which runs a large treatment free operation? Why would you not follow up on reports of treatment free beekeepers, like Michael Bush, like Kirk Webster? Why would any serious bee researcher ignore the possibility that these folks are truthfully reporting their results?

Finally, I have to say that your assumption that all new beekeepers who do not treat are driven by some sort of naive ideology (chemicals Bad!) is fairly insulting to those who have arrived at their working theories by a process of extensive research and by weighing what they've read on the scale of their own experiences. I've been an organic gardener for 50 years, and I've seen with my own eyes the results that can be achieved through developing a healthy soil, rather than attempting to circumvent many natural processes by the use of artificial fertilizer. A plant grown in healthy living soil is so much more resistant to pests and diseases than a plant with identical genetics grown in poor soil-- I've seen this a hundred times. A hive, like the soil, is a complex system containing a wide variety of bacteria, insects, fungus, yeasts, etc. Treatment may temporarily discourage the most deadly of pests, like varroa, but also damages the hive's biota in ways that have not been quantified.

I certainly don't have the answer, and will never claim to. I expect a lot of my bees to die, and that will be sad, but it was their misfortune to be the victims of a beginner. Still, I can't respect any sort of absolutist attitude regarding treatment (and I'm not accusing you of that; I've learned interesting stuff from your posts.) Given the massive losses over the last few years among those who treat, it's obvious they don't have the answer either.

Well, this thread has wandered far afield. All I really wanted to do was shine the light of reason on the basic silliness of one of the complaints that conventional beekeepers relentlessly put forward regarding the irresponsible hippy-dippy behavior of non-treaters like me.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I see a lot of generalizations going on Rhaldridge, I think this also leads to a lot of the bickering, everyone is an expert on what works for them but it's not universal. There are some TF successes, but look at how many bees they run and if they are migratory. How many treatment free beeks are there with 5000+ hives and are migratory? When you're making a living off bees it's tough to neglect treating and risk losing income if your hives come out of winter poorly.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

rhaldridge said:


> Again, I think a problem in your arguments is that they seem to rely entirely on genetics. You may recall that Solomon said that he had discovered that a large commercial operation had been going on quite near his yard. To me that was an indication that his cultural practices were more important than the genetics of his bees.


But Solomon himself has been claiming for years he is weeding out "weak genetics", and producing a bee with survivor genetics. If challenged he will vigorously defend this.

Mike Bispham claims losing 80% plus of ones bees is an expected part of the process to arrive at suitable genetics. Says so on his web site.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

R, Thanks for your essay. I *wish* the model of induced resistance from survivor stocks was a viable way forward for me. I continue to trial and test with wild swarms I collect, and they show no higher resistance to DWV than any other hive. Perhaps I am unfortunate in my location. DWV and Varroa would both coevolve for reduced virulence, but my trialing out-yard is half-way up a mountain with no commercials near-by. The "population background" for this area is going to feral for both Varroa, DWV and the Bees. Admittedly, 1000's of hives come into the county in December to rest up for the Almonds, but that is my landscape, and I don't think the December migratory bees are making many drone flights.

When I determine the hive has reached dangerous mite levels, I treat (with one or two of Formic/Oxalic/Sugar/Thymol) and move it down the mountain to a yard I manipulate. I also requeen obviously AHB and move the now non-feral hive out.

You complain about condescension. Curiously enough, the commercial keepers feel just as put upon by the religious zeal of treatment-free acolytes. 

My main complaint about the TF "catechism" is the patently untrue statement that "_the *only* way to get resistant bees is to "not treat"_. This formulation is repeated ad infinitum, but repeating does not make it true. What is true, is that selected breeding programs are able to develop resistant forms efficiently. Wild outcrossing is not a "selected breeding program", it may (truely) generate some local genotypes, but inefficiently. The inertia I see in the system implies that a very simple adaptation like in AHB -- constant swarming is going to replace refined forms in the land races. You already see this, and I suppose BeeWeaver are sending the genes all over the country.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

"the only way to get resistant bees is to "not treat". 

Well, at some point in the process, I suppose it's true. It makes sense with ferals. It would make sense if someone is testing for resistance for example.

I do know that DVE showed that 75%VSH will keep mite levels low enough to avoid colony loss.

Do you think that he treated to figure that one out? Nope, you can't treat for that kind of a test.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

To simplistic WLC. Our own VSH breeding program has achieved 80%+ VSH, but treatment was an essential part of the program because the bees that were the original breeding stock some years back were around 20% VSH and would have succumbed to varroa.

If treatment as needed had not been part of the breeding program, the 80% VSH bees we have now would not have been produced.

So bond is not the only way, and is in fact a way that wastes good material.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

All I'm saying is that treatment has to be withheld at some point in the process.

It certainly doesn't need to be the customer though.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

JRG13 said:


> I see a lot of generalizations going on Rhaldridge, I think this also leads to a lot of the bickering, everyone is an expert on what works for them but it's not universal. There are some TF successes, but look at how many bees they run and if they are migratory. How many treatment free beeks are there with 5000+ hives and are migratory? When you're making a living off bees it's tough to neglect treating and risk losing income if your hives come out of winter poorly.


Good points.

I think the stress of migratory beekeeping might be a major reason why some migratory beekeepers have such high losses in spite of treating. It might turn out that migratory beekeeping is not a sustainable practice, after all. In modern agriculture, I see a lot of stuff that appears to me to be unsustainable.

In the case of migratory beekeeping, I hope I'm wrong, because I know a lot of folks depend on the practice to make a decent living at a tough job. But change is the one constant, in farming even more than in most arenas of life.

Ray


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> My main complaint about the TF "catechism" is the patently untrue statement that "_the *only* way to get resistant bees is to "not treat"_. This formulation is repeated ad infinitum, but repeating does not make it true. What is true, is that selected breeding programs are able to develop resistant forms efficiently. Wild outcrossing is not a "selected breeding program", it may (truely) generate some local genotypes, but inefficiently. The inertia I see in the system implies that a very simple adaptation like in AHB -- constant swarming is going to replace refined forms in the land races. You already see this, and I suppose BeeWeaver are sending the genes all over the country.


I've heard the catechism in a slightly different form: "The only way to get treatment free bees is to not treat." You may be paraphrasing a bit there.

I think you may be overestimating the effect of AHB genetics on managed populations. Take an example probably everybody has heard about: Dee Lusby. I've seen that video of her working her yards, and to me it's terrifying. Her bees may have some Africanized gene expression, but they are clearly not entirely subverted, because according to all the research I've seen, you couldn't get AHB to fill 3 deeps with such massive numbers of bees. They'd have long since swarmed. 



JWChesnut said:


> You complain about condescension. Curiously enough, the commercial keepers feel just as put upon by the religious zeal of treatment-free acolytes.


I don't know why. I rarely see such raw dismissive contempt for commercial keepers in the bee journals. Do you? Maybe they are just frail sensitive flowers, but most of the ones I've had any contact with don't strike me that way.

My complaint isn't really about condescension, which is only annoying. It's about blinkered attitudes, which seems to be costing the profession dearly.

So what's your explanation for why bee scientists have found the various successful treatment free keepers to be unworthy of study?

Do you give any credence to the idea that the fairly soft treatments you are using might be adversely affecting hive biota?

http://www.yalescientific.org/2013/...crobiota-may-yield-clues-to-honey-bee-health/


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

THE major U.S. migratory beekeeper is suing the EPA over pesticides.

I wouldn't even mention the PPB thing. We know where that's coming from. (Hint: the opposition.)


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

rhaldridge said:


> Do you give any credence to the idea that the fairly soft treatments you are using might be adversely affecting hive biota?
> 
> http://www.yalescientific.org/2013/...crobiota-may-yield-clues-to-honey-bee-health/


My trial is not treat a hived swarm colony until I judge it start expressing high levels of DWV and/or Varroa. Hence, there are no soft treatments in the "test" phase, and no nearby treated colonies to mess up the community level micro-biota. Local ferals simply don't pass the test, neither better nor worse than any random colony.

I would guess Fumagilin (which is a broad anti-microspiridian and anti-ameboid, and not a targeted one) might destabilize biota.


I am sure there are lots of researchers working on TF. You get ahead in academics by upsetting the apple cart, being a young turk; so there is ample incentive to re-invent the wheel. 
I know my local teaching agriculture school trialed treatment-free on a multi-hundred hive level using Glenn VSH queens. That ended poorly.
I know the Arizona experiment station tests TF outyards.
North Carolina has papers on TF vs. T trials.
etc.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

So, you're not using trapouts or a cutouts?

Maybe you would do better?


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> I know my local teaching agriculture school trialed treatment-free on a multi-hundred hive level using Glenn VSH queens. That ended poorly.
> I know the Arizona experiment station tests TF outyards.
> North Carolina has papers on TF vs. T trials.
> etc.


That sounds very interesting. Do you have any links to these?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> In reality what is a constant threat is the continued propogation of weak genetics that can't survive being propped up by artificial means, and "super mites" who can breed fast enough to overcome treatments... these are not coming from the treatment free hives...


Its been about 25 years since varroa first impacted the US. Is their any evidence that these super mites have evolved? Wouldnt a mite that breeds fast enough to overcome treatments serve to hasten its own demise? My experience is that varroa is far easier to control now than when it first affected our operation. Our bees could never have weathered even a single season without a mite treatment 20 years ago. I worry far more about the mite vectored viruses, even in bees with fairly low mite counts.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

It's another one of those theories that sounds good and gets repeated so often it becomes "fact".

I've been seeing an awful lot of them especially in the last few months, some of them far removed from reality. Evidence for them is hinted at, but never supplied.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Jim,
Your skepticism surprises me. Mites resistant to fluvalinate, coumaphos and amitraz have all been extensively reported and developed with predictable speed. I think this is what MB is referring to, and his own conversion to TF came during the first episode of amitraz resistance if I recall his journal. 
Under application was a co-factor in resistance development. The resistance doesn't persist without continuing exposure (as it imposes a metabolic cost on the mite expressing it). I don't believe resistance to the organic acids have been reported, but anytime minimal effective doses are used, resistance develops more easily. 

Annecdotally, many California commercial operations are still doping with "Taktic" - which they must be rustling out of Mexico or Canada as its off the market. The frequency of the doping application and concentration is increasing (per my conversations with operators)- sure sign that Taktic's efficacy is wearing off. I've seen both oil soaks with Taktic and backback spraying of frames using a water/Amitraz mix applied.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That's a shame about the abuse of Taktic as it means the legal product (Apivar) will eventually not work.

re the supermite discussion, the problem I have with this argument is with the way it is presented. I think everybody realises mites are becoming immune to some of the treatments, that is accepted fact.

But the way the argument is worded often goes along the lines of "breeding stronger and stronger mites". Which to the gullible, means the mites are more deadly against bees than they used to be. Not the truth, in fact the reverse is more likely as the mites have to expend something to maintain the resistance.

Just so often, we see theories expressed, with a slight wording twist or little misconception somewhere, that gives the wrong idea. Often unintentional by the person who says it. So we end up with people being convinced of something that is not the case, while believing that science is on their side.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

JWC: That there is resistance to many chemical treatments is undeniable, it is what led me away from the products you listed years ago. That there are many effective treatments and ipm strategies that have been in use for years with no signs of resistance is equally true. My point is that bees may well be developing a resistance to mites at least as fast as the mites are developing a resistance to treatments and that the theory of the uncontrollable "super mite" is just, just that, a theory. Mostly, though, I am relating my personal experience with varroa and stand by my statement that varroa dosent continue to have the impact on our bees that they had 25 years ago. Isnt it just as logical to assume that this super mite has come and then just as quickly killed itself off? Clearly, though, the battle is an ongoing one but my bet is that the beekeeper is more tenacious than the mite.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, it's easy to order up VSH queens, so getting resistant bees isn't a problem.

I do agree with Jim that viruses like DWV are the real concern. It has spilled-over into bumble bees. And, DWV bees are widespread and easy to notice.

As for the Korea vs Japan haplotype of Varroa. There is evidence for mite attenuation in bees. As for virus attenuation, Martin has demonstrated that single DWV strains do dominate mites/bees in the Hawaii study.

So, I don't think that it's far fetched to say that treatments can be an impediment to developing attenuated mites/viruses locally.

It took three years for a single strain of DWV to dominate colonies locally in Hawaii, for example, according to the study.

In short, there is enough science to back up MB's position.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Mike Bispham? Which position? Last posts we were talking about supermites, you change the subject to DWV and say there is science to back MB position. Do you mean your own position? 

Re bumblebees, nobody knows how long they have has DWV. Could be thousands of years and passed unnoticed. As it passed largely unnoticed in honeybees till the advent of varroa mites.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Kwing was an indicator of Tracheal mites before Varroa came along, if I recall correctly.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Its been about 25 years since varroa first impacted the US. Is their any evidence that these super mites have evolved? 

Nothing is evolving at any rate that affects anything. However there is selective pressure and certainly the mites have built resistance to the treatments and they have reproduced fast enough to still be a problem despite the treatments. Do we really want to continue to put selective pressure in that direction?

>Wouldnt a mite that breeds fast enough to overcome treatments serve to hasten its own demise? 

It only has to reproduce faster in order to still succeed with treatments. I has to reproduce slower in order to still succeed without treatments.

>My experience is that varroa is far easier to control now than when it first affected our operation.

I would say the bees are getting resistance, not because of treatments, but because of feral bees that are not getting treatments...

>My main complaint about the TF "catechism" is the patently untrue statement that "the only way to get resistant bees is to "not treat".

Tell me how you know your bees can survive without treatments if you are treating. How would you select for bees that can survive without treatments? I need bees that don't have health issues at all. Not just bees that can survive mites, but bees that can survive winter, nosema, afb, efb, chalkbrood, sacbrood, stonebrood, wax moths and small hive beetles and still be gentle and productive. What combination of traits is that? How do I select for it if I treat?


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

Back to the thread topic. I think the complaint stems from the knowledge that treatment free beekeeping is sustainable with little to no cost to a beekeeper who is starting fresh and drawing their own clean comb. I think the larger beekeepers have too much invested in treatments to admit they are making a mistake and change course. Not to mention the enormity of such a task. Another point is how long these beekeepers have been preaching to the use of pesticides in the hive to anyone who will listen. It takes a lot of salt to admit foolishness, even more when the foolishness was indoctrinated. Teachers tend to suffer from this more than others.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Pipiyolti said:


> Back to the thread topic. I think the complaint stems from the knowledge that treatment free beekeeping is sustainable with little to no cost to a beekeeper who is starting fresh and drawing their own clean comb. I think the larger beekeepers have too much invested in treatments to admit they are making a mistake and change course. Not to mention the enormity of such a task. Another point is how long these beekeepers have been preaching to the use of pesticides in the hive to anyone who will listen. It takes a lot of salt to admit foolishness, even more when the foolishness was indoctrinated. Teachers tend to suffer from this more than others.


Commercial beekeepers have a lot more invested in their equipment and livestock than they do in anything else. They depend on their investments to support their family. Something no Small Scale Beekeeper does.

Have you ever had 600 colonies die from not treating? I have. Six or 7 years ago I had 732 colonies in May and by March had 100. So what was the foolish thing I did? Go back to splitting strong hives, making increase, buying more bees, and treating? Investing in my bees so I could pay my bills? What?

Had I another means of surviving/paying bills in other ways and I was good at grafting and raising queens maybe I would have done that but that was not the situation I had in front of me. I am not independently well off outside of my Beekeeping Operation. We are mutually dependent.

I don't preach pesticide use. I simply do it. I had more colonies of bees this Summer than I did last year. Positive improvement to me. If anyone is preaching here it is folks who critisize others for being foolish. Walk a mile in my shoes and then show me how to do what I do w/out doing what I do. Show me the error of my ways, don't just sit there saying something should be done a certain way w/out having done it.

Commercials and Small Scalers are not Machintoshes and Granny Smiths they are Jonathans and Navels.

You have a certain luxury which I do not have. You are not as invested in your bees as I am, as dependent on them as I am. You are newer to this vocation than I am. So you have a certain perspective not available to me. I can't see it for all of the experience I have had clouding my view. You are younger than I, somewhat, living under different circumstances than I am and than I have. I see these as your luxuries which allow you to see things as you do and to seem (maybe it isn't so) to look down on others who do things the way they do for reasons both common to many others and highly personal.

I know Sam Comfort somewhat, he texted me about the apple crop he knows my bees pollinated a cpl evenings ago, and I enjoy Sam's attitude and the way he expresses himself to those who don't necessarily want to hear it. I don't know if you know who Sam is or what his experiences have been, but, at least he has spent some time working in the field, working for Dave Mendes for one and Michael Palmer (I believe) and others and has his own operation made up of all TBHs, enough that he considers himself commercial. Have you done anything like that?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> I need bees that don't have health issues at all. Not just bees that can survive mites, but bees that can survive winter, nosema, afb, efb, chalkbrood, sacbrood, stonebrood, wax moths and small hive beetles and still be gentle and productive. What combination of traits is that? How do I select for it if I treat?


Selective breeding *quantifies* the expression of a "trait", and multi-factor selection happens all the time in breeding programs. All the laundry list of challenges you list have resistance that is heritable and quantifiable. There are straightforward weighting statistics to generate a selection index, and colonies with the highest selection index would be grafted against drone population with complementary constellation of traits.

Bees are unique in having super-organism vigor, that is because they are made up of daughters of many fathers, the community composition of traits also contributes to fitness. This allows the breeder to mix and match fathers in the correct proportion (a la Buckfast).

These lineages are fragile, in that "survivability" is always relative, and simple entropy and wild out-crossing implies they will not arise through random events. My core complaint about "Bond" programs is how enormously wasteful they are. In a backyard setting, and in my local area, they cannot work because "survivor stock" has been tested and shows no greater health than any other bee.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >
> 
> Tell me how you know your bees can survive without treatments if you are treating. How would you select for bees that can survive without treatments? I need bees that don't have health issues at all. Not just bees that can survive mites, but bees that can survive winter, nosema, afb, efb, chalkbrood, sacbrood, stonebrood, wax moths and small hive beetles and still be gentle and productive. What combination of traits is that? How do I select for it if I treat?


When it comes to bee diseases and foreseeing the future I don't know what any of us knows for sure. I reject the notion that I am part of the problem though. Our bees have always paid all the bills and in the past 20 years we not only haven't had to purchase any replacement bees but have almost doubled the size of our operation all the while dramatically reducing our dependence on treatments. I think that's highly relevant. Can any tf beekeeper make a similar claim?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

>>>>Mostly, though, I am relating my personal experience with varroa and stand by my statement that varroa dosent continue to have the impact on our bees that they had 25 years ago. <<<<
Jim, 
Thanks for the clarification. I am also seeing this pattern of reduced deadliness. I lost colonies, and exited beekeeping in 90-92. The mites don't seem to come on as strong, and the DWV seems a little less pervasive after the mites develop. The research on DWV indicates that it is already hypovirulent, so it may be selecting itself for better host survival. A virus (generation time in hours), a mite (generation time in 15 days) are going to move faster in genotype selection than a long-lived social colony.

All the bee trees are occupied, my trap hives fill in June with wild swarms. We have enormous open comb colonies living under tree limbs and on rock overhangs and these will persist for several years instead of blinking out in the first winter.

It would be nice if the TF>T debate became irrelevant to non-migratory keepers as the bee and parasites converge. However, I don't think backyard TF practices will speed up (or slow down) this conversion -- for all the reasons I have been railing about.

Self-pollinating Almonds have left trials, and "Independence" was planted on upwards of 100,000 acres this year. I wonder how the "migratory" commercial model is going to survive when pollination contracts drop back to sub-economic prices on collapsing demand. We are definitely in a gold-rush bubble right now in Ca.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

>Commercial beekeepers have a lot more invested in their equipment and livestock than they do in anything else. They depend on their investments to support their family. Something no Small Scale Beekeeper does.

When I say the large outfits have too much invested I am not merely speaking of "capital". Emotions are playing a huge role here and treatment free beekeeping is showing that simple logic should have been followed when you asked yourself, "why am I dosing my insects with insecticide?" It doesn't matter if the treatment free keeper refrains from bad mouthing, Their success is insult enough. I see this type of mentality everywhere in our culture today.
You are right that I have the luxury of starting out treatment free in beekeeping and you have gleefully lumped me into the pile of beekeepers who think of them as pets. The truth is my first hive was a cutout in April and I was grafting queens in June, more cutouts and splits followed and I now have close to 20 hives in 2 separate yards. I have already surpassed my goal for this year and I haven't spent a single dollar. I get the feeling the treatment crowd wishes me the worst of luck, too bad it was hard work that got me here.
I think it is great that Sam has experience on large scale operations. It is his and others experience which make it possible for us new kids to skip that whole nightmare.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You assume incorrectly. I wish you ever continuing success. Let me know how things are going when you reach the 500 colony count w/ your, as you call them, "pets". Not a word I used. Perception is not always reality.

Do you recognize your own emotional investment?

At our Bee Group meeting last night one of our members reminded me that he had lost 50% of his hives this Winter. He does not use treatments. What would you advise he do going forward?

Let us know how many of yours did not die over Winter before you start making increase next Spring.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

>All the bee trees are occupied, my trap hives fill in June with wild swarms. We have enormous open comb colonies living under tree limbs and on rock overhangs and these will persist for several years instead of blinking out in the first winter.

This is largely due to backyard beekeepers letting their colonies swarm, it is getting popular if you haven't noticed.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

What do you tell someone (a TFer) who lost 1/2 their colonies overwinter?

Keep splitting. Add new genetics by using different mated queens from 'resistant' stock. 

And, most importantly, add probiotics to syrup. It'll increase honey and wax production by double digit %ages. That should take the edge off of the losses somewhat. Probiotics can also improve the overall health of colonies, which might just help bring losses down to a manageable level.

There's a lot of work being done on probiotics. It's a 'food grade' supplement. You could make your own with some syrup, milk, and honey (from anywhere in the world).

It certainly has more appeal than some of the treatments being discussed.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

>At our Bee Group meeting last night one of our members reminded me that he had lost 50% of his hives this Winter. He does not use treatments. What would you advise he do going forward?

Move to a more temperate climate I tend not to give advice, I haven't enough rings on my tree yet. 
Back to the topic of this thread, when I hear that the commercial side is blaming infestation on treatment free I can see where that will go... Regulations and more control.

>You assume incorrectly. I wish you ever continuing success. Let me know how things are going when you reach the 500 colony count w/ your, as you call them, "pets". Not a word I used. Perception is not always reality.

You assume that because I am a first year beekeeper that I am unable to see the whole picture. You assume I would be foolish enough to put all my eggs in one basket and spend ALL of my time on 500 hives. That to me sounds like a miserable existence. But just like cattle, people keep more than they can handle and hold their hand out when things don't work out.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Pipiyolti said:


> >All the bee trees are occupied, my trap hives fill in June with wild swarms. We have enormous open comb colonies living under tree limbs and on rock overhangs and these will persist for several years instead of blinking out in the first winter.
> 
> This is largely due to backyard beekeepers letting their colonies swarm, it is getting popular if you haven't noticed.


I think you claim too much credit. Commercially run hives swarm too. Do what we can to keep that to a minimum it still happens.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Pipiyolti said:


> >You assume incorrectly. I wish you ever continuing success. Let me know how things are going when you reach the 500 colony count w/ your, as you call them, "pets". Not a word I used. Perception is not always reality.
> 
> You assume that because I am a first year beekeeper that I am unable to see the whole picture. You assume I would be foolish enough to put all my eggs in one basket and spend ALL of my time on 500 hives. That to me sounds like a miserable existence. But just like cattle, people keep more than they can handle and hold their hand out when things don't work out.


Oh my, what can I say, what can I say. Yes, you are right you don't have enough rings on your tree. Yet you believe you can see the whole picture as well as if not better than those who are mighty oaks to your sapling.

Be kind to those you encounter on your path upthe mountain. They will be there on your way down.

I know the draw backs of not listening to those one can't relate to, but I get tired more easily as time goes by, so I won't see ya.

Back in 1988 or so a friend long in the bee business, and still at it today, said of tracheal and varroa, "Yeah, we've seen this before. It'll be okay. We'll get by." Meaning that in the long view of beekeeping our current situation may not be ideal, but we will look back on this one day as we look back on the years of AFB Epidemic, Isle of Wight, and other eras. If folks just stick it oit.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> I think you claim too much credit. Commercially run hives swarm too. Do what we can to keep that to a minimum it still happens.


I don't have any backyard hives. Not something I would encourage in my area, another conversation entirely. The fact is, a lot of packages are being shipped far and wide as of late. Think of all the free honey that is being given away by new beekeepers all over the country. Bet that takes a bite out of the pie, I look forward to a day when only those without friends need to buy honey.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Pipiyolti:

Do you see the dark ferals that are being reported in your area, or are they more like the EHB/AHB mix I've heard about?


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

>Oh my, what can I say, what can I say. Yes, you are right you don't have enough rings on your tree. Yet you believe you can see the whole picture as well as if not better than those who are mighty oaks to your sapling.

I can tell by your presumptive attitude that you are a "put your head down and shut up" kind of person. A remnant of our collective faith based past. The fact is I am part of a generation who is questioning everything and and uncovering the economic reason for your actions. I don't believe I can change any persons mind. The goal is to have more people start out right so they can fill the gap created when you get tired of holding the line for the corporate side.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

WLC said:


> Pipiyolti:
> 
> Do you see the dark ferals that are being reported in your area, or are they more like the EHB/AHB mix I've heard about?


They are dark and small but not until they start foraging. all my young girls are blond when they they go on their first flight. I wish I had more insight into other bees and be able to answer that question.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Is Crowder one of your influences? You know, top bar hives, etc.?


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Do you mean Crowder? He is very influential in this state.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What benefit is there for TF Beekeepers and Non-TF Beekeepers to exchange Posts w/ each other? I feel like much of this has been wasted time, yelling past the barn as my Mom might have said.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Oops!

Of course, I meant Crowder.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

>Is Crowder one of your influences? You know, top bar hives, etc.? 

This was my inspiration http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EjEbf8xBE8U#t=279
It should start around 5 min in for you. If not, skip ahead to 4:45. Love it when the guy mentions African bees.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Honestly, folks, I didn't mean for this to turn into a slapfight. I was only concerned with one issue: is it fair and/or reasonable to call non-treaters irresponsible in the context of the larger community?

But some interesting stuff has come up. 

It seems to be a consensus that bees are less vulnerable to mites than they were when the mites first appeared, which is a nice thing to know. To me, it means that if factors other than genetics play a role in successful TF management practices, these can be the difference between success and failure.

If I'm reading JWC correctly, he traps swarms and then monitors them for mite load. When they reach a threshhold, he treats. I wonder if he would do better to take struggling colonies, break them up, and requeen the resulting nucs? The reason I speculate in this direction is that even soft treatments like thymol have been shown to negatively affect hive biota and diversity. If, rather than treating, he re-used hive resources in a way that incorporated a brood break, the hive biota would have a chance to develop toward some sort of equilibrium with pests and diseases. This approach would avoid the wastefulness he decries in the hard Bond method (and I tend to agree with him in that regard.) By the way JWC, I'd really like links or any clues to those academic studies of TF, if you can find them.

I think that the idea that genetics are the only factor in hive health flies in the face of logic. As I mentioned before, you can clone a plant, so that its genetics are identical, grow one clone in poor soil, and one in rich soil. They won't behave in the same way. The one in poor soil will fall victim to the first pest or disease that comes along, and the one in rich soil will have far more resistance. Why is it so hard for people to believe that environment has a huge effect on other organisms as well. Like bees, for example.

My primary objection to treatment is that its effects are not easily quantifiable-- both negative and positive. With the treatments we call successful, what do we mean? As far as I can tell, we mean that most of the bees survive and most of the mites don't. Am I the only person that finds this unacceptably imprecise?

Mark, Luke Martin lost 24% of his hives last winter, and I got the impression he thought that was high. Must have been a bad winter. Luke is selling nucs, if your bee club member can get on his list for next spring. I'm trying to get some of Luke's bees secondhand through his daughter. I plan to haul them south to winter in FL. 

Jim, I've quadrupled my colony count, but since it's only been a few months, I can't claim anything at all yet. It might well turn out that I'm not smart enough to succeed at TF beekeeping.

There are annoying people in all walks of life. I've run across beekeepers in both camps whose smugness is only exceeded by their ignorance. I don't hold it against beekeepers who treat that some of the folks in their ranks are hard to get along with, and I hope for the same tolerance from the other side of the fence. I've only got a couple people on my ignore list, but BeeSource is more fun and more educational since I put them there.

Just sayin'

Ray


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> What benefit is there for TF Beekeepers and Non-TF Beekeepers to exchange Posts w/ each other? I feel like much of this has been wasted time, yelling past the barn as my Mom might have said.



Well eventually you'll need a source of clean wax.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

So, Mollison was discussing sustainable permaculture in Africa.

I was also influenced to enter beekeeping by Kenyan Topbar beekeeping and sustainable agriculture. Small world.

Although, I've since gone Lang for practical reasons.

I know quite a few organic 'foodies' here in NYC.

Perhaps some of the treatment folks just don't get where we're coming from?


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Pipiyolti said:


> >Oh my, what can I say, what can I say. Yes, you are right you don't have enough rings on your tree. Yet you believe you can see the whole picture as well as if not better than those who are mighty oaks to your sapling.
> 
> I can tell by your presumptive attitude that you are a "put your head down and shut up" kind of person. A remnant of our collective faith based past. The fact is I am part of a generation who is questioning everything and and uncovering the economic reason for your actions. I don't believe I can change any persons mind. The goal is to have more people start out right so they can fill the gap created when you get tired of holding the line for the corporate side.


I know Mark. It was his kindness and willingness to answer dumb questions that got me started in beekeeping. In the bee club he is a member of, and for which he goes to a lot of trouble, people feel free to admit that they don't treat. In my bee club, no one brings up the subject, for fear of serious ridicule. What does that tell you?

Your attitude is disrespectful and immature. It's not a good way to win people over to your point of view. I was treated as an idiot on BeeSource, when I first got here. Because of my views on treatment, they thought I was another version of you, samples of which crop up on the site regularly, and usually fade away in a year or two. I'm on your side, but I wish you would learn some social skills, and realize that respectful discussion is a more effective way to go than lazy confrontational dispute.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rhaldridge said:


> Honestly, folks, I didn't mean for this to turn into a slapfight. I was only concerned with one issue: is it fair and/or reasonable to call non-treaters irresponsible in the context of the larger community?
> 
> Ray


I don't think so. But if I recall the circumstances the Poster felt that their treatment may have been wasted because the coloniues that died out basically sent their mites over the frnce into his as they died.

I do what I do and try not to look to closely across the fence.

We had a good meeting last night Ray. Not a crowd but good conversation, questions and answers, exchanges of points of view. Set up a committee for a program in October on "Starting Out". Keep in touch.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

The trick to treatment free in my opinion is good genetics and knowing when to make splits. You are always raising the next generation for the next season.

Here is the other thing, mostly aimed at people who use wild/survivor stock... if there are wild bees, one can assume they have formed some sort of genetic or social equilibrium with the mites or they would not be there in the first place. There was a period not too long ago when finding a wild hive was very hard, now they are everywhere in some locales. I use a lot of wild stock, and try not to disrupt them too much by using things they would not see in their tree - had I have left them there. 

It's just a different paradigm, and I do not see a lot of common ground between those who treat and those who don't. Just like some people go to McDonald's and others won't eat that sort of thing. In New Mexico, Treatment Free seems to be the norm, unless you are a large commercial operation.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Really? You don't understand the complaint about treatment free beekeepers?  Me neither.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

My legitimate complaint of treated hives is when you can smell mothballs in their honey. A person should be strung up for something like that. Might not be a commonplace treatment but none the less one performed by those who think eradication is the key to success.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Someone just reminded me. "Find someone who is successful at what they do and follow them." That's what I do as much as I can. I have not been very impressed by the TF examples. That or they don't fit into how I am handling my bees migratorially and pollinationwise.

Thanks dj.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I agree, it is all about systems. You must find one that works for you, and more importantly, for your area. What works for me may not work for you, with different bees and environmental conditions. I would be lost if I lived in a region with SHB and truly freezing conditions.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

In this smorgasbord of life all I have of value to share w/ you is myself. If someone finds me distasteful pass me over and take nourishment from another vessel.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

>>> I was only concerned with one issue: is it fair and/or reasonable to call non-treaters irresponsible<<<<

No. I don't think mite transfer is a genuine issue (as mites are everywhere, anyway). TF provides a reservoir of non-drug-resistant mites to repopulate commercial hives, so is useful, as I stated in my first post in this thread. DWV is universal as well, transfered on pollen, etc. Mites promote it within the hive. I don't know about the other virii, as they don't express as obviously.

I think there may be genuine issue with AFB, however. TF tends to ignore the seriousness of AFB, or because of the enormous number of first-years involved simply doesn't recognize it. TF's resist sanitary response and has already decided against drugs, this provides an AFB vector. On the other hand, Bee-L was recently in a cat-fight about widely implemented post-infection anti-biotic treatment of AFB as an alternative to the sterile approach. It may be that AFB is being vectored by commercial onto the hobbyists, and not the other way around.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I think that TFB is mostly about sustainable apiculture. :thumbsup:

Some of the treatment practices are simply unsustainable. While others, cross the line into a place I refuse go. :no:


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

rhaldridge said:


> I know Mark. It was his kindness and willingness to answer dumb questions that got me started in beekeeping. In the bee club he is a member of, and for which he goes to a lot of trouble, people feel free to admit that they don't treat. In my bee club, no one brings up the subject, for fear of serious ridicule. What does that tell you?
> 
> Your attitude is disrespectful and immature. It's not a good way to win people over to your point of view. I was treated as an idiot on BeeSource, when I first got here. Because of my views on treatment, they thought I was another version of you, samples of which crop up on the site regularly, and usually fade away in a year or two. I'm on your side, but I wish you would learn some social skills, and realize that respectful discussion is a more effective way to go than lazy confrontational dispute.


Forum heros such as Mark tend to be the ones throwing daggers and offer nothing more than one liners and indignation. It is no surprise that he has other venues in which to do the same. I have never been one to stay quiet and put my head down as you do at "other" meetings. Feelings need to be hurt, we need to speak out otherwise we get more of the same. Unless you choose not to evolve/adapt, it's your decision.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Power to the people.


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## Nige.Coll (Aug 18, 2013)

if your hive gets afb in the uk it gets burned.
if you get afb/efb and don't report it you are breaking the law here.
also we have inspections from the bee inspector to check hive health etc.

as far as honey smelling of mothballs or tasting funny well the treatments come with instructions maybe they should read them before applying the treatment.
we don't have shb yet 

funny i was looking at bee base the government website for bee pest control etc and the only afb outbreaks in the uk seem to be near honey processing plants handling imported honey. they leave the vats outside and bees clean the honey left in them and take afb home.

i think people have a different attitude to treatment of bee pests in the uk. 
each to their own i guess.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

Nige.Coll said:


> if your hive gets afb in the uk it gets burned.
> if you get afb/efb and don't report it you are breaking the law here.
> also we have inspections from the bee inspector to check hive health etc.
> 
> ...


What where the instructions for the use of DDT? To bad nobody followed the guidelines for disbursement on that one.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

The entire U.S. Beeswax supply has become so completely contaminated by the very products that beekeepers are using to treat their colonies, that some scientists suggest that it's a contributing factor to colony decline.

We don't need to go to DDT to see that we may be looking at yet another self inflicted catastrophe.

So, maybe the 'official' complaint is really against treatments, and not the other way around.

If you buy wax foundation, or even wax coated plastic, it's all contaminated at this point.

That's one terrible legacy that we're faced with.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

The TF solution to AFB should be the same as the non-treatment. Burn the hive. EFB, that is a bit different. Just cage the queen and hopefully they will overcome it. If not, they don't need to be in the gene pool. Just my opinion. It is very hard to distinguish true EFB from a host of other bacteriological diseases - and even pollen poisoning, so burning is a bit extreme. IBDS and EFB are very hard to tell apart.

I have a hive with a caged queen from IBDS while I type. I can see how it would not be a good option for industrialized beekeeping because of the time involved. Much more efficient for the profit margin to just toss on a medicine patty and be done with it.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Got ourselves a new internet hero here, 20 hives, hasn't spent a buck, maybe the new Ace.....


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

>The entire U.S. Beeswax supply has become so completely contaminated by the very products that beekeepers are using to treat their colonies, that some scientists suggest that it's a contributing factor to colony decline.

We should force the big boys to make candles when they go under... Hand dipped as penance.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

My wife would argue the money part of your statement if you are directing it at me. All beekeeping is a black hole apparently. TF or not.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Paul McCarty said:


> The TF solution to AFB should be the same as the non-treatment. Burn the hive. EFB, that is a bit different. Just cage the queen and hopefully they will overcome it. If not, they don't need to be in the gene pool. Just my opinion. It is very hard to distinguish true EFB from a host of other bacteriological diseases - and even pollen poisoning, so burning is a bit extreme. IBDS and EFB are very hard to tell apart.
> 
> I have a hive with a caged queen from IBDS while I type. I can see how it would not be a good option for industrialized beekeeping because of the time involved. Much more efficient for the profit margin to just toss on a medicine patty and be done with it.


Have you tried Lab Confirmation? The Beltville Bee Lab will do it for free.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

rhaldridge said:


> Honestly, folks, I didn't mean for this to turn into a slapfight. I was only concerned with one issue: is it fair and/or reasonable to call non-treaters irresponsible in the context of the larger community?
> 
> But some interesting stuff has come up.
> 
> ...


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Jim

Eloquently stated, the key phrase for me being "most folks"..


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Pipiyolti said:


> Forum heros such as Mark tend to be the ones throwing daggers and offer nothing more than one liners and indignation. It is no surprise that he has other venues in which to do the same. I have never been one to stay quiet and put my head down as you do at "other" meetings. Feelings need to be hurt, we need to speak out otherwise we get more of the same. Unless you choose not to evolve/adapt, it's your decision.


As first year beekeepers, you and I have no credibility among those who've worked in the field for decades. All we can reasonably do is ask questions and put forward our theories (and the factual basis for those theories.) If we get combative about stuff we have no first hand experience with, it will only lead to people deciding we're idiots. It's much easier to dismiss the angry rantings of an idiot than the thoughtful questions of someone who is respectful.

Your attitude is unlikely to convince anyone that you're right and they're wrong. When you lack experience and reputation, your only alternative is guile, and first among the commandments of the wily is to not offend the people you're trying to sell on your ideas.

You sound like a smart guy who's on the right track, but lacks a grasp of human nature. Either that, or you're working for the miticide companies, here to convince people that the treatment free alternative is only practiced by people they wouldn't like. I kind of prefer the latter explanation because it appeals to my Machiavellian view of the world, but I could be wrong. Sometimes I overthink stuff.

Anyway, if you search out Mark's posts, you'll see that he does a lot more than issue one-liners and indignation. I think he would agree that he has a somewhat argumentative nature, a common characteristic of beekeepers, but what I like about Mark's forum behavior is that he usually tries to understand what people are saying before he gets irritated. 

All things considered, I'd rather be a forum hero than a forum joke. You're at that fork in the road.


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## Nige.Coll (Aug 18, 2013)

most of the varroa approved treatments here are based on essential oils but cannot be used until after honey harvest.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

Paul McCarty said:


> My wife would argue the money part of your statement if you are directing it at me. All beekeeping is a black hole apparently. TF or not.


Not here, as long as free/bartered lumber is available. If you don't treat and you allow bees to draw their own comb what else is needed to "run" the show. If I bought new equipment my wife would say "you could have made that....couldn't you?" And to add to my woes I once told her of how some beekeepers got "free" bees from cut-outs. She says "Great! You can do that...can't you?" She saw someone build a house once.........


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The only real heroes are all dead. I'm not dead. And would never claim hero status. Merely another warrior. And the Father of a Wounded Warrior at that.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Even "free" bees cost money. Usually the "free" costs more than the store-bought variety. You must be very picky if you go the "free" bee route or you will get nickel and dimed to oblivion.

And for whomever asked about the testing at Beltsville, yes I did a sample, but my "treatment" will probably be over and done with by the time I hear back. Just have to get them a chance to clear things out so I can let the queen start laying again. If not, it will be too late to do anything with them because of Winter and they will be lost. They were a hive of domestic Cordovans, who were apparently not hygienic enough. I also suspect the pollen got contaminated by a local farmer who sprayed the orchard they were near (heard through the grapevine from the nearby locals). In any case, the uncapped brood all died out and the bees could not keep up cleaning it out. hard to tell as many of the symptoms look the same.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

jim lyon said:


> rhaldridge said:
> 
> 
> > Good for you Ray, and I mean that sincerely. I read tf accounts with interest and not disdain. My position on the theme of this thread is no, I don't think whether you are treatment free or not has any bearing on the spread of disease, everyones bees have some varroa and all are susceptible to other infectious diseases. What I do think is irresponsible is for any beekeeper to let his hives get weak enough that they are vulnerable to robbing.
> ...


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

I don't care if anyone finds me credible. We are expanding on our views and sneering at each other openly without glazed eyes and fake smiles. It is what makes our time so different than before a venue such as this existed. So ask yourself of what your are crusading for when you attempt to strike down the opposition of another?



rhaldridge said:


> As first year beekeepers, you and I have no credibility among those who've worked in the field for decades. All we can reasonably do is ask questions and put forward our theories (and the factual basis for those theories.) If we get combative about stuff we have no first hand experience with, it will only lead to people deciding we're idiots. It's much easier to dismiss the angry rantings of an idiot than the thoughtful questions of someone who is respectful.
> 
> Your attitude is unlikely to convince anyone that you're right and they're wrong. When you lack experience and reputation, your only alternative is guile, and first among the commandments of the wily is to not offend the people you're trying to sell on your ideas.
> 
> ...


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Pipiyolti said:


> I don't care if anyone finds me credible.


Well okay then. The industry shill theory is gaining credibility.

The pen may be mightier than the sword, but only if the pen is wielded by an intelligent hand. Any fool can swing a sword.

(I said that.)


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

rhaldridge said:


> Well okay then. The industry shill theory is gaining credibility.
> 
> The pen may be mightier than the sword, but only if the pen is wielded by an intelligent hand. Any fool can swing a sword.
> 
> (I said that.)


Congratulations! You have become the very thing you accuse me of. 
Now correct me if I am wrong but I do believe that was the worst thing I have said about anyone here. Take a minute and wrap your head around that one.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't think it was the worst thing you've said here. Come back and read your posts tomorrow after you have calmed down, you may see what has alienated everyone.

In particular I found your claim that a particular person hopes it all goes bad for you, to be a false assumption / accusation, confrontational, and obnoxious.



rhaldridge said:


> Jim, I've quadrupled my colony count, but since it's only been a few months, I can't claim anything at all yet. It might well turn out that I'm not smart enough to succeed at TF beekeeping.


Straight up, from my reading of Beesource, it does not appear that succeeding at treatment free has much to do with being smart. I see people with little knowledge starting out, some making really bad mistakes along the way in terms of bee management, due to lack of knowledge and experience, but just not treating, and succeeding. No particular skill is involved. To what extent they succeed, varies, some do well hardly lose a hive, others lose quite a few but learn to keep up via splitting etc, others eventually lose all and give up. 

My conclusion is there is a fair bit of luck involved. Where somebody is, what their original source of bees is, etc. If all that falls into place, anyone can do it. Being profitable, is a different matter.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

It's not a theory.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Being profitable, is a different matter.



Bingo.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

From what I understand there is a certain tip-over point where the numbers of bees make being Treatment Free very hard to do. What this point is, depends on a lot of different variables.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Pipiyolti said:


> I think the larger beekeepers have too much invested in treatments to admit they are making a mistake and change course. Not to mention the enormity of such a task.


That's an interesting way of looking at it! From my perspective, larger (commercial) beekeepers have their living invested in their bees and to change course to the degree you advocate would most certainly result in a lot of these outfits going out of business. The task would be enormous!


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Paul McCarty said:


> From what I understand there is a certain tip-over point where the numbers of bees make being Treatment Free very hard to do. What this point is, depends on a lot of different variables.


That's probably right, but I wonder if that isn't partly because so few largescale operators have made the attempt. There's Dee Lusby, Kirk Webster, and a few others who seem to be on the verge of hive numbers that folks would accept as commercial. Maybe the techniques to succeed at treatment free on a large scale haven't yet been developed, or at least widely disseminated. The only really big operation I know of that is treatment free is BeeWeaver, and I think they are more oriented toward producing bees than honey.

I would think that someone who has 500 hives must have to use different management practices than someone who has a few dozen, even if both beekeepers use treatments. It seems to be the case that most treatment free proponents have relatively small operations, but that might be because they're in a better position to take chances than folks who depend on bees for a living.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Pipiyolti said:


> Feelings need to be hurt, we need to speak out otherwise we get more of the same.


Will yours get hurt if you're banned? I suggest an easing back on your tone.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

And yet, no one has mentioned how many of those treatments actually result in colony losses.

Nor is anyone keeping track of how much time is being spent carrying out those treatments, or how that time could be better used to increase productivity.

It's being called unsustainable for a reason.

I'm saying that treatments are having a much bigger impact on productivity, and margins, than anyone realizes.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

>In particular I found your claim that a particular person hopes it all goes bad for you, to be a false assumption / accusation, confrontational, and obnoxious.

I do believe I cast a pretty big net when I made that statement but that is besides the point. 
The thread title was in question of the complaint some conventional beekeepers make about other beekeepers not using insecticide to control mite loads. I have seen several people try to whitewash the subject stating they do not believe such a feeling exist among conventional beekeepers. Being a new beekeeper I have witnessed this false theory first hand and have been warned of the dangers I would cause by not using insecticide in my hives so I find it hard to believe that propaganda is not being preached.

The commercial beekeeper should be worried about the general public finding out that honey has traces of insecticide in it and not about how I treat my bees.

Maybe the true fear is of the general public finding out? Especially if people are using the word "treatment free" on their label. An educated consumer can be dangerous to industry.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

Barry said:


> Will yours get hurt if you're banned? I suggest an easing back on your tone.


Do what you need to. I have done my best to keep things to the point of this thread. So Please ban me! Only the weak make threats Barry.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It would be foolish to assume that Commercial Beekeepers, especially the Commercial Beekeepers I know personally and have heard speak here through beesource.com, don't desire to be free of the need to use treatments against varroa. Also especially those who recall what it was like before 1984, before mites. Economically speaking one could save so much in Labor and Cost of Treatment Materials.

Do folks starting out have any idea what it takes to change combs in even only 500 hives? It is not as simple as shaking all of ones colonies onto foundation and poof you have bees on new comb. Even were it that simple, do TF beginners know how much honey production would be lost and how much syrup would have to be fed to get foundation drawn. What the labor would be?

It could be done, but it would take years and it would take dicipline to keep equipment segregated and one would still have environmental contamination.

At what point would one start? What would there have to be before one started going TF on a large scale? Because once one goes down that road there is no other way to go or all that time work, and investment would be for naught.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I get tired of these discussions by folks that have no clue. Do you all think that beekeepers with 10,000 colonies feel any differently that beekeepers with 10 colonies? We're all in this together folks and as usual this has taken the usual turn. 

No one wants to dump chemicals in their colonies, but for some it's the only way to proceed until the bees are ready. Do you think there aren't folks trying their very best to develop bees that need less help? 

So to the original post. You don't understand the complaint about treatment free beekeepers. Well, I guess you would have had to be there to understand. A beekeepers who treats responsibly does so, for instance, in the Fall. This allows a reduction in the mite load and a long period between treatment and supering in the spring. So, there's a treatment free beekeeper in the neighborhood with a small, untreated apiary. That apiary sheds mites which wind up in the apiary of the treatment beekeeper. So, by the time Fall treatment time arrives, the colonies already have a big mite load because they were re-infested from other colonies in the neighborhood.

Do you think I'm full of hot air? Then you haven't had bees long enough. 

When all of my 40 apiaries winter wonderfully, and one doesn't, I begin to question myself...what did I do or not do differently. I certainly consider operator error. Then a neighbor drives into my apiary wagging his finger at me and telling me I made his bees crash by being in the neighborhood. But, I never moved my nucs there until July, and he says his bees never built up since he installed his packages. I check my bees and find a huge nosema load. Just where do you think the nosema came from. The nucs were made with brood from the same source, and daughter queens from the same breeders, and made at the same time as the other apiaries and are totally sick and greasy and shivery bees. 

And you can't understand the complaint? Think about it.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Pipiyolti said:


> So Please ban me! Only the weak make threats Barry.


If you insist.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks barry.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Pipiyolti has been martyred.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> If you insist.


Someone did say one time, "Be careful what you wish for. You may get it."


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Poor pipi. I miss the passionate posts already.

Was that Mike Palmer that just posted something?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks Michael Palmer for that good explanation, you have expressed what longer time large beekeepers have gradually learned from real life as it is.

I think the way the thread was set up was dividing people into two camps and bound to cause division, best not to even play that game.

The inflammatory comments generally come from very new beekeepers who are sincere in their beliefs but just haven't been around long enough. Hard to judge them as they haven't seen all sides of a picture yet, but when they are deliberately confrontational then actually ask to be banned, go figure...

People who have been around more than a year or two seem to mellow, and that's because they find that things do not always go according to their textbook, so they become more tolerant of the views of others. The longer we keep bees, the less we know LOL


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Michael Palmer said:


> So to the original post. You don't understand the complaint about treatment free beekeepers. Well, I guess you would have had to be there to understand. A beekeepers who treats responsibly does so, for instance, in the Fall. This allows a reduction in the mite load and a long period between treatment and supering in the spring. So, there's a treatment free beekeeper in the neighborhood with a small, untreated apiary. That apiary sheds mites which wind up in the apiary of the treatment beekeeper. So, by the time Fall treatment time arrives, the colonies already have a big mite load because they were re-infested from other colonies in the neighborhood.
> 
> Do you think I'm full of hot air? Then you haven't had bees long enough.
> 
> .


That is exactly what happened to me a few years ago, with my neighbouring beekeeper who just bought a retiring beekeeper out and bought into this "natural" survivor beekeeping practice. Problem was he bought 1200 hives and naturally he lost 1000 of them within a couple of years. I was never able to control the mite loads in the yards around his, and only figured out why after this guy went broke. Now my treatment results are more predictable. 
Just my experience

maybe those hives that survived in the end could of been built back up to what he had tried to do, but in the end it did not matter as he went broke,


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Oldtimer said:


> Being profitable, is a different matter.


I see D. Semple already beat me to it, but I think this is the big difference. Of course we can debate what "profitable" is, but I have yet to see a TF beekeeper make their sole living from their bees.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

What about that MDA splitter fella?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Wow. Lost nearly all 1200 hives in 2 years then went broke!

Amazing how strong his convictions must have been to stick to them, not treat, and suffer all that. Admire the guy, and also feel sorry for him, must have been a nightmare.

But there is something in this for all those people who have had one hive for 3 months and start lecturing commercial beekeepers about what they should be doing. Learn from what happened to that guy. A small timers situation mostly does not apply to a big guy.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> I think the way the thread was set up was dividing people into two camps and bound to cause division, best not to even play that game.


The OP was about a specific case originally voiced by wildbranch I believe. I hope I'm not throwing him under the bus, so to speak. Just thought folks should be reminded of the origin of the reference.

Been a while since anyone was banned Barry? He must have been the first to demand it?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> I get tired of these discussions by folks that have no clue. Do you all think that beekeepers with 10,000 colonies feel any differently that beekeepers with 10 colonies? We're all in this together folks and as usual this has taken the usual turn.
> 
> No one wants to dump chemicals in their colonies, but for some it's the only way to proceed until the bees are ready. Do you think there aren't folks trying their very best to develop bees that need less help?
> 
> ...


Did TE ask you for forgiveness?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Oldtimer said:


> Wow. Lost nearly all 1200 hives in 2 years then went broke!


I would also chalk a lot of those losses to in experience, as if he had any experience with beekeeping other than working for one for a few years, he would of understood the importance of maintaining healthy hives

classic case of "way over your head" syndrome


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Why don't you just say that as a business, you're following best/standard practices, and the laws of your state require that you treat infected colonies? And, these TFBers aren't following the law.

Was that so hard to say?

Of course, I could give you the response to that statement.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

let's assume that it is the less responsible in both the treating and non-treating camps that allow the spread of mites ect. by not taking effective measures to prevent collapse and robbing.

so if all beekeepers are affected by the less responsible,

do those whose livelihood depends on bees have more of a grievance than those who keep bees for fun?

seems to me that most of us would have stronger feelings about someone or something that affects our ability to pay bills and put food on the table than we would over something affecting our hobby.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

In plain English, it's against the law not to treat an infected colony.

All the state laws say it pretty much the same way.

Untreated hives are a 'nuisance'.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

rhaldridge said:


> All things considered, I'd rather be a forum hero than a forum joke. You're at that fork in the road.


I _*really *_like this quote, so much so that I have bookmarked it.  Ray's entire post (clicking the blue arrow in the quote box will take you there) is right on the money, and has application beyond being merely a response to the former _Pipiyolti_*.

*:lookout:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> He must have been the first to demand it?


Happy to comply with demands like that. I practice TF beekeeping, but I will never throw verbal rocks at my commercial friends and make them out to be the enemy. We can learn from each other if we're not busy picking up rocks to throw.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Did TE ask you for forgiveness?


It wasn't TE.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> It wasn't TE.


Thought he sold the guy his nucs.


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

I highly recommend that any small scale beekeeper attend an ABF, EAS, Honey Producers, etc. convention. I'm a small scale guy with 11 hives, heading towards 20, who went to the ABF Convention in Hershey, and the EAS Convention in West Chester, PA. I'll bee heading to Kentucky next year. Nuclear Power pays the bills, and bees are my soon to be sideline business. I tell people that want to get into beekeeping that I always know what will happen when we split a uranium atom, but the bees keep finding ways to prove me wrong. It's easier to heard cats, than to get 30,000 bees to do what you want. The purpose of this rant, is to say to the new people that you have to get out and meet these people who keep hundreds, and thousands, of hives. The ones I have met, are very helpful, know a lot, and are very willing to share. They care greatly about their bees, and have a lot more reason to care about the integrity of beekeeping than we do. If you manage to get the likes of Michael Palmer telling you don't have a clue. Trust me, you don't.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

The real danger, as opposed to a nuisance (even a serious one) is American Foul Brood. Untreated, AFB can spread and cause serious damage and losses and can be hard to eliminate. Mites could be bad enough if someone is "treatment free" and generating huge numbers of them to be a serious problem rather than a nuisance, but AFB is the real problem. One problem with large numbers of amateur beekeepers with small numbers of hives is that they are unlikely to recognize AFB in it's early stages, and spread it to large operations by pure ignorance. Not likely to make the guy a couple miles away with several hundred hives very happy, eh?

We would all, I'm sure, love to be totally treatment free. Treatment costs money and time and effort I'm sure we could all use in other ways, but healthy, non-infested bees are what we all want and sometimes treatments are the only way to get there.

That said, I suspect there are better ways to treat for mites that rather powerful organophosphate insecticides in the hive. Oxalic acid vapor, formic acid, sugar dusting, etc are far less harmful to the bees and certainly to us, and don't leave large amounts of nasty stuff in the comb. They are STILL treatments, though!

Peter


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I worry more about mite vectored viruses than I do about AFB.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

This thread is pure WIN now. Like I said, internet hero....


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> I worry more about mite vectored viruses than I do about AFB.


It's hard to imagine even a beginner not noticing that his hive smells like death. Though I do have a brother-in-law with no sense of smell. He probably shouldn't be a beekeeper.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Ah! But you're all forgetting that we have a federal mandate to develop resistant stocks of Honeybees.

I think that the TFB/distributive model will ultimately work.

Thousands of small scale beekeepers are the key.

I'm not convinced that commercials can stomach the losses.

I most certainly can.


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## deejaycee (Apr 30, 2008)

rhaldridge said:


> It's hard to imagine even a beginner not noticing that his hive smells like death. Though I do have a brother-in-law with no sense of smell. He probably shouldn't be a beekeeper.


The smell is not always obvious RH, and when it is, the hives has often gone so far it is a significant robbing risk - therefore a much greater danger to other hives.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

Jeez, all this condescending towards new beekeepers... it gets really old. Why should people have to follow the same failure of our fathers to prove something?? It reminds me of an interesting Joel Salatin remark about new farmers discussing their ideals and goals with old, commercial farmers. Mostly what you'll get will be resistance and an attempt to rub it in your face that you lack enough experience and investment to be credible. Essentially because these older farmers types have FAILED at doing what the newbie is trying to do! Just because the old hands can't figure out a way to be forward and progressive, doesn't mean the newbies are INVALID, or incapable of sucess.

If 500 hives is the magical number that validates you as a beekeeper, FORGET IT! What an unsustainable amount of hives!!!!!! As an holistic agricultural business model it make NO SENSE!
I intend to keep enough bees to support a medicinal hive product line and queen rearing, as a SIDELINE to my orchard which in turn supports my sugaring, draft horses, berries, poultry/waterfowl, seed production... 

It seems we only run into trouble when we have this intensive, linear business model that is completely dependent on the status quo.

Also, I think under the best intentions this thread was a dead end dog fight.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I didn't see anyone being condescending... they got exactly what they asked for didn't they? I mean it takes some balls to come in here with less than a year under your belt claiming ur the greatest treatment free success story while multiplying ur hive count 20 fold w/o spending a dime at the same time telling anyone who treats bees they're doing it wrong and it's so easy to make a living off bees being a treatment free migratory beekeeper.... I mean, come on, it's easy to not treat your bees and come up with a super bee to provide the whole country right???


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

deejaycee said:


> The smell is not always obvious RH, and when it is, the hives has often gone so far it is a significant robbing risk - therefore a much greater danger to other hives.


I did not know that. The stuff I've read describes it as a pretty powerful stench. I guess the only thing you can do is look at the brood, but in other threads I've been advised not to bother the bees constantly. Of course, as a beginner, I do bother the bees constantly, in an effort to learn, but I can't imagine that a guy with a lot of hives goes through them frame by frame very often. I'm also told that some of the best beekeepers try to avoid prophylactic antibiotics, so... What to do?

It's also a bit hard for me to believe that a backyard beekeeper with a few isolated hives is at as much risk of developing AFB as a commercial beekeeper who is just back from the almonds with a few thousand hives, but maybe I'm wrong.

So far, what I've learned from this thread is that bad beekeepers, whether they treat or not, are a danger to their neighbors. There have been a couple of anecdotes about irresponsible treatment free beekeepers, but I'd bet serious money that the folks who told those anecdotes have also had trouble with incompetent conventional beekeepers.

I think the best argument against the idea that treatment free beekeepers are endangering their neighbors relies on numbers. Even though we appear to be an unusually loud and obnoxious group, our numbers are actually very small, at least in terms of hive counts. There might be a hundred times as many conventionally managed hives as treatment free hives, or maybe even more than that. 

We can't do a whole lot of damage.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hazel-Rah said:


> Also, I think under the best intentions this thread was a dead end dog fight.


The whole thread was a bad idea from the start. 

It was set up to find out who said something wrong (in the OP's opinion), and punish them. 

Course that's divisive, had to go bad.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rhaldridge said:


> It's hard to imagine even a beginner not noticing that his hive smells like death. Though I do have a brother-in-law with no sense of smell. He probably shouldn't be a beekeeper.


Often not that potent a smell, especially early on in the infection. I have had pretty advanced cases which I couldn't smell. Other times I have walked into an apiary and noticed a smell and "known" AFB was present.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Hazel-Rah said:


> Jeez, all this condescending towards new beekeepers... it gets really old. Why should people have to follow the same failure of our fathers to prove something??


Hazel, I think you miss my point. It has nothing to do with numbers. When YOUR colony breaks down with AFB, just where do you think it came from? Not from the air, not from the ground...but from a neighboring hive that died from the disease.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hazel-Rah said:


> Jeez, all this condescending towards new beekeepers... it gets really old. Why should people have to follow the same failure of our fathers to prove something?? It reminds me of an interesting Joel Salatin remark about new farmers discussing their ideals and goals with old, commercial farmers. Mostly what you'll get will be resistance and an attempt to rub it in your face that you lack enough experience and investment to be credible. Essentially because these older farmers types have FAILED at doing what the newbie is trying to do! Just because the old hands can't figure out a way to be forward and progressive, doesn't mean the newbies are INVALID, or incapable of sucess.
> 
> If 500 hives is the magical number that validates you as a beekeeper, FORGET IT! What an unsustainable amount of hives!!!!!! As an holistic agricultural business model it make NO SENSE!
> I intend to keep enough bees to support a medicinal hive product line and queen rearing, as a SIDELINE to my orchard which in turn supports my sugaring, draft horses, berries, poultry/waterfowl, seed production...


Hazel-Rah,
Pipi wasn't just a new beekeeper, he was a disrespectful radical fanatic who thought he knew things he could not have known from lack of real world experience. He/she wasn't here to exchange ideas and listen to reason. I appreciate that your tone is not inflamitory.

I have not failed yet. Continuing to keep bees in the face of the mite/virus complex is not failure. Being open to ideas wherever they come from is not failure. Noting ideas and recognizing them as things thjat didn't work is not failure. Keep in mind that some folks have been around long enough to have seen this movie under its original production.

I gotta ask, are you serious about keeping bees to support those other things? What is this Medicinal hive product business that will do that? I'm sure others would like to know. Maybe others could benefit from your idea too.

Five hundred hives is what is commonly considered being commercial, amongst commercial beekeepers anyway. Sure you can run a bee business w/ fewer. It's just an easy number to throw out there when someone w/ 20 hives trys to tell someone w/ a huge amount more how they are wrong.

Thanks for sharing.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rhaldridge said:


> We can't do a whole lot of damage.


Ray,
Here's how I see it. Going back a few years to when TBH beekeeping started to be noticed in NY, coinciding w/ the "the bees are dying and we need to save them" idea/fad(?), there was some concern that people were or would just buy bees and throw them in a box and not do anything w/ them.

As an Apiaty Inspector, which I am not now and have not been for 7 years, I have seen what happened when Apple Orchard Owners owned beehives. every Spring they would buy packages and fill in the deadouts. No consideration to why those hives were devoid of bees. They weren't keeping bees they were buying pollination.

There is one orchard where the owners are beekeepers. Yet I have traded combs w/ them when I have sold them nucs and had every nuc box full of comb be riddled w/ AFB scale. This from someone who should have noticed.

So that is the concern, beehavers more so than beekeepers.

Education/knowledge is the best disinfectant.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> The whole thread was a bad idea from the start.
> 
> It was set up to find out who said something wrong (in the OP's opinion), and punish them.
> 
> Course that's divisive, had to go bad.


I totaly disagree. Ray was asking so he could better understand. He was seaking to understand why what was stated was true or if it was true how such a thing should be handled.

Had Ray been out to punish someone he would have quoted the Post in question and published the Posters name. He intentionally did not do that. Or maybe he doesn't know how to quote a Post to another Thread any better than I do.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Hazel, I think you miss my point. It has nothing to do with numbers. When YOUR colony breaks down with AFB, just where do you think it came from? Not from the air, not from the ground...but from a neighboring hive that died from the disease.


Actually this is how I think it is spread.

Transmission: The spores are fed to young larvae by the nurse bees. They then germinate in the gut of the larva and multiply rapidly, causing the larva to die soon after it has been sealed in its cell. By the time of death of the larva, the new spores have formed. When the house bees clean out the cell containing the dead larva, these spores are distributed throughout the hive and more and more larvae become infected. The honey in an infected colony can become contaminated with spores and can be a source of infection for any bee that gains access to it. For example, as a colony becomes weak, it cannot defend itself from attacks by robber bees from strong nearby colonies; these robbers take back the contaminated honey to their own colony, continuing the cycle of infection. The beekeeper also may inadvertently spread the disease by exposing contaminated honey to other bees or by the interchange of infected equipment. *Moreover, drifting bees or swarms issuing from an infected colony may spread the disease*.

Bold added for emphasis to the fact that your strong hives are just as likely to spread it as weak ones are.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> The whole thread was a bad idea from the start.
> 
> It was set up to find out who said something wrong (in the OP's opinion), and punish them.
> 
> Course that's divisive, had to go bad.


Yeah, God forbid you ask questions about beekeeping around here. I mean jeez, who do people think they are anyway. Totally asinine idea to start such a thread. Some people just don't seem to know how to behave themselves before the alter of the elite.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If we are going to discuss ways that AFB gets around, buying it is source number one, robbing infected equipment is number two, infected swarms is low on the list. Consider that a swarm from an infected hive will whenarriving at its new home turn honey in their stomachs into wax and then comb thereby making the infectious spores unavailable in enough a concentration to reinfect the colony.

There is a chart somewhere that illustrates this. Maybe in the Diseases Pests, and Predators book.

Never the less, Michael knows what he is talking about. You can't go wrong listening to Michael. Not that Daniel is wrong.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> Yeah, God forbid you ask questions about beekeeping around here. I mean jeez, who do people think they are anyway. Totally asinine idea to start such a thread. Some people just don't seem to know how to behave themselves before the alter of the elite.


Thanks Daniel, that's the funniest Post in this Thread. "the alter of the elite." lol


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

"Alter" ?? Surprised you missed that. I actually read that over a few times, trying to figure out if it was a play on words...... maybe it is...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> I totaly disagree. Ray was asking so he could better understand.


OK, well if you and Daniel say so.

Just, I read the thread that Ray referred to, knew exactly who he was talking about, have heard Ray's opinion on the matter, and saw it as an attempt to re-open matters from an acrimonious closed thread, and zone in on the statement by the person concerned. Which of course, it was.

The person concerned has wisely refrained for the most part, from joining this discussion.

But as you guys see it different, I've re-read the post, and can see your way of looking at it. 

However it was obvious soon as I saw the opening post how the thread would go. Ray didn't know that already?

After nine pages of predictable acrimony, has his question been answered? If not, what answer does he want?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Lots of interesting lessons in this thread, a real study in life experiences and human nature. Mr. Palmers experience is certainly not to be ignored. I have had similar ones myself. I will, however, maintain my contention that disease spread is not a "treatment, non-treatment" issue as much as it is an issue of good beekeeping practice. Combining hives, reducing entrances and careful feeding practices. I believe it is more of a challenge to control robbing in untreated hives in equal conditions but it's doable. The greatest challenge in controlling robbing that I have found is in large holding and wintering locations with lots and lots of hives around. That scenario is pretty much uniquely commercial.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Oldtimer said:


> After nine pages of predictable acrimony, has his question been answered? If not, what answer does he want?


I think squarepeg summed it up nicely:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...treatment-free-beekeepers&p=993044#post993044


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> Lots of interesting lessons in this thread, a real study in life experiences and human nature. Mr. Palmers experience is certainly not to be ignored. I have had similar ones myself. I will, however, maintain my contention that disease spread is not a "treatment, non-treatment" issue as much as it is an issue of good beekeeping practice. Combining hives, reducing entrances and careful feeding practices. I believe it is more of a challenge to control robbing in untreated hives in equal conditions but it's doable. The greatest challenge in controlling robbing that I have found is in large holding and wintering locations with lots and lots of hives around. That scenario is pretty much uniquely commercial.


I agree Jim, and was only attempting to answer the OP in an informed way.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

No one is faulting anyone for trying to protect their source of income. 

Yet, the finger of blame can be pointed every which way.

By relying on treatments too heavily, you're simply creating resistant strains of pests, pathogens, and parasites. A.K.A., the treadmill.

When the product you're relying on is no longer effective because the target has become resistant, YOU become the source of those pests, parasites, and pathogens contaminating local apiaries.

It happens far too often.

IPM is still the best model we have though.

However, I think that methods that are closer to the treatment free/chemical free approach are showing their potential.

I would hold up the return of feral colonies as real world evidence supporting the 'treatment free' model of beekeeping.

We just need to apply the lessons of 'the return of the feral colonies' to our own beekeeping practices.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Well, I've found this a very interesting and useful thread. I'm sorry about the acrimony, but what can you do?

I find myself in the position of being the least experienced person in the room in most threads. I try to make up for this a little by studying the literature constantly and thinking really really hard about the subject, but I know I don't always succeed. I'm beginning to see that the older you get, the harder it is to learn new stuff, and I'm pretty old.

Anyway, as Mark said, it seems that the problem is beehavers, and I think it's reasonable to assume that many beginners who have jumped on the treatment free bandwagon will indeed fall into the category of beehavers. I suppose their hives are not much worse than feral hives, from the collapse and rob-out point of view. Still, I have to admit that the original criticism is valid in the case of beehavers. I wish we could agree to only level that particular criticism at folks like that.

I do have another question: what about winter deadouts? Are they as likely to be a source of contagion-- mites, nosema, AFB-- as hives that die when the bees are flying? My guess is no, but I'd like to hear from others with more experience.

I've only had one instance where I was concerned about robbing, but I think I was wrong. I caught a swarm in a 5 frame nuc box up in NY, and hauled it down to FL. When I opened it, it was really full of bees. A nearby split in an identical nuc box was immediately covered in bees. My reaction was to make the second nuc's entrance very small and put a robbing screen on. But I think it turned out not to be robbing, because the split had a frame of honey in it, and that was not molested. I think the bees were just confused after their long trip and returned to the wrong nuc box.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

i usually skip these threads because they usually devolve quickly.

remind me what the consistence is on treatment free?

thats 
no powdered sugar?
no chemical treatment (Acaricide etc)
no removal of a drone frame and freeze it
no fogging

anything else?


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

I wasn't referring to the reaction to Pippi as the only time I've experienced this belittling attitude towards non-commercial/newbie beekeepers. As a radical fanatic myself, I can sympathize with his/her sincerity, though I do know when to back down myself (I think). It is pretty intimidating to always have to be proving oneself based on our commercial credentials.

I am wondering how the focus of this thread went from mite loads to AFB?? Of course in my opinion, TF hives are, at worst, supplying treated hives with less resistant mites. And the treatment folks are supplying me with their less-resistant drones. It seems that what most people have come to conclusion of, is that whether you are treating or not, you owe yourself and fellow beekeepers the act of monitoring your failing hives to prevent disease transmission. In the areas that I have kept bees, AFB is a non-issue. I've never seen it. I am sure I would notice a hive that diseased, it doesn't seem to me that that really has anything to do with TF vs Treatment. My radical sentiments lead me to believe that the robust gut flora of my non-transported, OG irrigated ag-land foraging, TF bees would be competitive with invasive bacteria/disease.

As for my philosophies on beekeeping as a business... I just think that this niche specialization is what got us into trouble. Keeping only bees for pollination or honey production seems a folly to me in lines with producers of ONLY soybeans, almonds, beef cattle etc. I do not blame the practitioners(at least I try not to), because I know this is merely a reaction to US and global market demands. Which requires people doing these entirely non-holistic practices, which in turn allows them to fall prey to the need to reach for chemical solutions. Because you cannot reconcile commercial/industrial demands with the desires to be TF, or organic, or biodynamic, or a user of hand-scale/convivial technology. Though I know that a select few have experienced success with converting their commercial operations to be TF, they are still a far cry from promoting the natural seasonality of the bee.

I hesitate to fully expound on my medicinal hive product business model, mostly out of insecurity for being accused of woo-woo. But I will say that I aspire to not more the 100 hives, maybe 150 annual peak with nucs. Honestly, as few as I can get away with while still supporting a TF breeding program. Time will tell what this magic number is. As far as products go, I am looking at propolis (medicinal tincture), honey, and wax for salves. My goal is to harness the miraculous alchemical process that bees preform between flowers and the sun. TF is an obvious choice for me.

My outlook on bees as a part of the farm-scape is that, they should be a part of the whole picture. That is, if you are producing bees, you should also be producing things that benefit and are benefiting from, bees. For example, orchard plantings and seed production, especially of pollinator crops like sweet clover, hyssop, phacelia, buckwheat, borage, etc... Promoting organic land management and diversified livestock rotations, like grazing poultry in your orchard instead of spraying for pests. Or growing medicinal or gourmet mushrooms to compete with predatory fungus, instead of spraying fungicides that annihilate bee gut flora, making them susceptible to nosema, AFB etc... OK anyway, who is still reading this? I have go to work.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Hazel-Rah said:


> My goal is to harness the miraculous alchemical process that bees preform between flowers and the sun. TF is an obvious choice for me.
> 
> k.


Does "Alchemical" refer to Alchemy.... as in lead to gold?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> After nine pages of predictable acrimony, has his question been answered? If not, what answer does he want?


I think his question was answered a number of times by a number of answerers. Michael Palmer and myself are two that I recall. I think I answered twice.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rhaldridge said:


> I do have another question: what about winter deadouts? Are they as likely to be a source of contagion-- mites, nosema, AFB-- as hives that die when the bees are flying? My guess is no, but I'd like to hear from others with more experience.


Mites, No. Nosema, I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Maybe nosema spores would be picked up from the comb surface or the honey by robbing bees. AFB, for sure, if it is present or the colony died from AFB.

Many beekeepers stand deadouts up on end on the bottom board come Spring or even during the Summer season. It helps keep equipment from being destroyed by wax moth. Unless disease free, it can spread problems.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

hpm08161947 said:


> Does "Alchemical" refer to Alchemy.... as in lead to gold?


Where ya been Herb? Out on the outer banks?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Many beekeepers stand deadouts up on end on the bottom board come Spring or even during the Summer season. It helps keep equipment from being destroyed by wax moth. Unless disease free, it can spread problems.


anyone in the heavy shb area's do this and does the light keep the shb's from destroying the hive?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> The OP was about a specific case originally voiced by wildbranch I believe. I hope I'm not throwing him under the bus, so to speak.


gee I didn't think I said anything that would get someone excited, so I went back and read my post, still don't see anything much, but I don't mind going under the bus, I always wanted to meet Keith Jarrett and I heard he lives under the bus.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

To TF Beekeepers, Wares, TBH, beekeepers in general,
I question everything. Those who know me personally or have read my Posts on beesource know that. Questioning makes people uncomfortable. Sometimes it may appear as though by questioning I may appear critical and condisending. I just want to see the successful examples. Show me. Tell me, but also show me.

I hear from time to time about the unflexible nature of long time commercial beekeepers. I hear that what commercial beekeepers do and have done is not sustainable.

Commercial beekeepers who knew beekeeping before 1984 who are still in business are flexible. They have rolled w/ the punches. They have been knocked down and gotten back up and have changed tactics/practices in response to what was attacking them and their livelihood.

Sustainable? There is nothing sustainable but change. Those of us still in business have changed. Changed to address Varroa, nosema, changes in agriculture, changes in weather patterns. Y'all that have been on beesource long enough may have witnessed Michael Palmer's evolution in overwintering nucs for example.

Many of us have been at this long enough to have a been there, done that, learned from it attitude.

Thanks for your patience.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> gee I didn't think I said anything that would get someone excited, so I went back and read my post, still don't see anything much, but I don't mind going under the bus, I always wanted to meet Keith Jarrett and I heard he lives under the bus.


Maybe it was another South Central NY Beekeeper than. Check the grease joints while yer down there, will ya?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Where ya been Herb? Out on the outer banks?


Well actually... yes.... as Oak Island is a part of the Outer Banks. Occasionally one has to take a break from BS..... it can get pretty intense..... I can not help reading these threads, I just have been trying to bite my tongue. Truthfully the vineyard eats up alot of my time during the latter part of the summer.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

wildbranch2007 said:


> anyone in the heavy shb area's do this and does the light keep the shb's from destroying the hive?



Yes... it works pretty good, but not 100%. When I have a badly over run hive... I freese it then sit it on it's side. Late in the summer when the moths get really bad I move them into a shipping container and gas them..... that works.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> gee I didn't think I said anything that would get someone excited, so I went back and read my post, still don't see anything much, but I don't mind going under the bus, I always wanted to meet Keith Jarrett and I heard he lives under the bus.


No, actually, I don't think it was anything you said. I don't even remember the post OldTimer is all excited about. But in most TF threads, it seems to come up that one reason people should not take the TF tack is that it poses a danger to other beekeepers, which didn't make a lot of sense to me, purely on the basis of numbers. There are so few TF beekeepers, and most are very small operations. Even if most of them are bad beekeepers, statistically, they shouldn't be too much of a problem. There are probably many more feral hives than TF hives. 

If I'm speculating, it could be that conventional beekeepers just get tired of hearing about the wonders of TF beekeeping from beginners, and tend to look for reasons to be further irritated with the obnoxious segment of the group. It's just human nature, but I think it unfairly tars all TF practitioners with the same brush..

What bothers me about this is that irrational beliefs on both sides of the debate make it hard to have sensible discussions, so I was hoping to prune away one of those.

Clearly, my optimism is irrational.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>In plain English, it's against the law not to treat an infected colony.

Assuming the topic is AFB, in most states it is against to law to TREAT an infected colony. In most states you are required to burn it. In most countries you are not only not allowed to treat an infected colony, but you are not allowed to treat an uninfected colony. If it's infected, you burn it. If it's not infected you are forbidden to treat it.

>but I have yet to see a TF beekeeper make their sole living from their bees. 

Dee Lusby doesn't make any money from anything else. Kirk Webster doesn't make any money from anything else. Up until he published a book, I don't think Les Crowder was doing anything else. Bee Weaver doesn't make a living from anything else that I know of. I believe a few other names came up in a recent thread on the topic.

>In New Mexico, Treatment Free seems to be the norm, unless you are a large commercial operation. 

When I spoke in NM, that was what surprised me. When discussing not treating with the members of the beekeeping association they said "none of us treat!". It was pretty refreshing.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

How about Tim 'Tower Hive' Ives, and Mel 'MDA splitter' Disselkoen?


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

AMEN to the above post, thank-you MB! Honestly, why should it even be a standard to have to make your 'sole living' off bees?? No doubt some people can, let's add to the above list Melanie Kirby and Sam Comfort, do this. Oh, the nice folks at Olympic Wilderness Apiary...But it is not really a rational farm-scape plan that most people should aspire to. The idea that people who are 'in business with bees can't be treatment free', in no way validates chemical treatments in the archetype of the honey bee. TF should not be held to the industrial model.

And yes, alchemical as in... nectar to honey, resin to propolis, sunlight to wax, pollen to bee-bread, royal jelly etc... How can I produce medicine for people when I am medicating my bees?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hazel-Rah said:


> why should it even be a standard to have to make your 'sole living' off bees??


I guess it doesn't have to be, a standard. If it isn't for you then it isn't and that is fine w/ me. If that matters.

But, I think this came into the conversation of this Thread when Pipi (I don't know the rest of the persons name) and I were exchanging Posts. He/she seemed to think that what she/he was going to do was become selfsustaining w/ bees w/out treating for varroa. From my point of view there is only so much value doing so w/out doing so at a commercial migratory pollination level.

But that's just where I am coming from and I am not telling anyone that they need to do anything.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Hazel-Rah said:


> And yes, alchemical as in... nectar to honey, resin to propolis, sunlight to wax, pollen to bee-bread, royal jelly etc... How can I produce medicine for people when I am medicating my bees?


Would a fall treatment with a natural product like thymol affect the alchemical of the hive products the following summer?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Now that feral colonies are reappearing after a long absence, I think that it's possible to develop a commercial model of TFB.

They're clearly resistant enough to survive in the wild. 

You just have to make it 'fit' into the commercial setting.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Personally, I don't care what ya'll do. I'm only telling you what can happen. It isn't for me to judge. It is up to me to be more aware and vigilant in my management if you, as a treatment beekeeper, keep bees near mine.

Anyway...here's another one...

2012. New York samples most of my 30 apiaries. Mite counts of 2s or 3s...except two yards that are 2 miles apart. In between in a TF beekeeper who doesn't know how to manage his mites. These two apiaries rolled 12s and 15s.

Coincidence?


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

Where are these "Feral" colonies any one on here from New York seen one? I have never seen one ever not to say that they do not exist I would think that alot of wild colonies people do evidently see are just swarms from this year from managed colonies


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

> And yes, alchemical as in... nectar to honey, resin to propolis, sunlight to wax, pollen to bee-bread, royal jelly etc... How can I produce medicine for people when I am medicating my bees?


I support your farm-scape model, and I agree that a world full of diversified small farms would be better for both ecosystems and gross national happiness. Though that is of course a subjective opinion, as it seems the majority of folks really like living in cities and letting industrial agriculture take care of food production. I don't understand those people, but that doesn't make them wrong...

As for the medicine, if it is OK to make medicine for people, why not medicine for bees? You say it's OK to take medicinal mushrooms or propolis for immune support, but presumably not so good to reach for the Tamiflu. Why then is it not OK to give thyme oil or hop extract to the bees when they are sick, or covered in disease-vectoring, blood-sucking parasites? Somehow the main debate has become "treatment" vs. "treatment-free", with the TF folks going all hardcore on the rules (no powdered sugar, no thymol, etc.). Hardcore TF is a useful strategy for breeding stronger bees, and the more folks who practice it the fewer treatments we will need going forward. It is not, however, a useful strategy for maximizing bee health and survival in the near term. It's rather as if I decided that antibiotics are bad and I will not, under any circumstances, take them. That works just fine until I come down with a case of pneumonia, in which case I either treat and recover quickly or stick to my guns and quite possibly die.

It is entirely possible to grow a crop of thyme and extract the essential oil (which is about 40% thymol), or produce your own hop extract, or boil down rhubarb (which is 0.5-1% oxalic acid). These are natural (i.e. nature-derived) treatments, even if the commercially available versions might be synthetically produced. Same goes for formic acid, which happens to be more difficult to extract and concentrate at home. It's just another naturally occurring acid like vinegar, which is widely accepted by darn near everybody as natural and relatively harmless. All of these treatments are already part of our diet, they are metabolized by microbes in nature (i.e. they don't leave persistent residues), and I don't buy the argument that those who use them are part and parcel of modern, chemical-driven, industrial agriculture.

From my perspective, the major divide should not be treatment vs. no treatment but rather natural vs. synthetic. Apivar (amitraz) may be pretty dang effective, but it is not naturally produced and is pretty dang toxic to humans. Synthetic chemicals tend to persist as no microbes have evolved to break them down, and they can thus accumulate in wax and interact in unfortunate synergies with unpredictable effects.

In brief:

1. If it is OK for us to take reishi and echinacea extracts when we're sick, then we should be able to give thyme and hops to our bees when they're sick.

2. No treatments is a good way to make a better bee, but not a good way to maximize survival with the bees you've got. By all means go treatment-free if you want to and get your survivor stock out there for sale, but don't belittle those of us who incorporate natural medicines into our management plans.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Funny thing, I was talking to a friend of mine just the other day, and he mentioned that he had a carpenter bee problem as well as a several year old feral hive in a tree on his property. At first, he wondered why the bees were going under the deck, but then he figured out that they were different kinds of bees.
Anyway, his place is in upstate NY.

They're around here somewhere!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

xcugat said:


> Where are these "Feral" colonies any one on here from New York seen one? I have never seen one ever not to say that they do not exist I would think that alot of wild colonies people do evidently see are just swarms from this year from managed colonies


Could be. But I have had about 10 or 12 swarm calls and requests for removal from houses and trees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> I think his question was answered a number of times by a number of answerers. Michael Palmer and myself are two that I recall. I think I answered twice.


Yes well that's why I asked if it's been answered. Cos I've seen it answered several times, and even had a go at answering myself. But that was never acknowledged and instead the OP has periodically re- stated the question. 

So I wondered about the reason for this ongoing and circuitous acrimony.

As to my own position on the matter, the only bee diseases that matter where I am, are AFB and mites. AFB is spread by anyone commercial and hobbyists alike. Over the last 12 months I've been involved in cleaning up AFB cases for maybe 8 hobbyists, some of which were dead and had been robbed, and I've known of commercial cases but they do their own clean up. 
Mites, well when I went treatment free (and bond) I did come in for a bit of sniping from those around me who treat. What got me about that was already for years when I did treat, I had been running a careful program to ensure that mites could not develop resistance to anything. But others around me, would use the same treatment, every 6 months, every time. Then, I go treatment free, which means my mites were definitely not developing resistance to anything. But those around me were jumping up and down cos they might get my mites.
In the end, my colonies began collapsing and some were robbed, I'm 99% certain I would have transferred mites to others. But every last one of them treat every 6 months anyway, and my non resistant mites `would have been no issue to them. Their mites, were no issue to me either, didn't matter if they were resistant, cos I wasn't treating anyway.

But now I'm back treating, but in the gentlest way possible plus ensuring I do not promote resistant mites, the folks around me who were complaining are a problem to me, with their lazy use the same thing every time till it doesn't work any more approach.

It's been interesting some of the comments I've had here from people on Beesource who assume I have a particular point of view, just cos I used to be commercial. Hobby beekeepers are all different, and so are commercial beekeepers. Tired of people ranting against one group or the other, and this thread is a primer for it, an inevitable catalyst.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Michael Bush said:


> >but I have yet to see a TF beekeeper make their sole living from their bees.
> 
> Dee Lusby doesn't make any money from anything else. Kirk Webster doesn't make any money from anything else. Up until he published a book, I don't think Les Crowder was doing anything else. Bee Weaver doesn't make a living from anything else that I know of. I believe a few other names came up in a recent thread on the topic.


I figured I'd have to eventually respond again to my comment. When one stacks up the commercial beekeepers and divides them into two groups (TF & T), we have a speck on one side and pretty much the whole mountain on the other. I don't include Dee in this group for obvious issues that surround her bee genetics. I wouldn't include Weaver either as they are a queen/bee producer, not honey/pollination.

Point is, if and when we see some real numbers on the TF side, I'll start giving some weight to the guys like Pipiyolti that come on here and throw their verbal stones.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I think that in terms of numbers of beekeepers, of any description, there may be a large number of them who aren't treating for all kinds of reasons.

I wouldn't exclude the groups who are using different genetics at this point.

For example, Brazilian beekeepers using AHB/EHB don't need to treat for Varroa. They're quite resistant.

I would think that the TF group in the southwestern U.S. may have similar genetics on their side.

I don't think that they're using 'killer bees' in TF beekeeping in the SW.

It appears, for all intents and purposes, to be 'attenuated' EHB/AHB genetics that are in play.

Could you use similar types of bees for commercial pollination?

I don't see why not.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Luterra said:


> From my perspective, the major divide should not be treatment vs. no treatment but rather natural vs. synthetic. Apivar (amitraz) may be pretty dang effective, but it is not naturally produced and is pretty dang toxic to humans. Synthetic chemicals tend to persist as no microbes have evolved to break them down, and they can thus accumulate in wax and interact in unfortunate synergies with unpredictable effects.


My worry with soft treatments like thymol and hopguard is that I believe they have a negative effect on hive biota. These are the bacteria, fungi, insects and other arthropods that inhabit a healthy hive along with the bees. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't believe these effects have been adequately quantified. 

In my view, these other hive (and gut) inhabitants must surely have co-evolved with the bees, and serve important purposes in the colony. I don't think you can screw around with this stuff and not expect some negative repercussions.

That said, I imagine the bees find these soft treatments more survivable than some less natural treatments. I don't belittle anyone for their choices in apiculture, but that doesn't mean I can't try to decide the best course for me. In fact, it would be hypocritical for me to judge anyone else, because as an organic gardener, I've treated my plants with stuff like BT and pepper spray, and diatomaceous earth. Still, I view that sort of thing as a bridge to allow me to harvest vegetables that are superior to the ones at the grocery store, while in the process of building soil to the point that these treatments are no longer needed. There may be a useful analogy there.

Michael Palmer: Have you ever had any trouble of the sort you report with beekeepers who treat? I've read that conventional beekeepers have had heavy losses too. Have their dying hives had negative effects on surrounding apiaries, too? Do you know if Kirk Webster's neighbors complain that his bees are spreading mites and other problems to their apiaries?

I'm really not trying to be a pain. I'm just asking for fairness here. If treatment worked a whole lot better than non-treatment, then I would find the notion that TF beekeepers are cesspools of contagion to be more realistic. But evidently conventional beekeepers have suffered massive losses, too. Did the collapse of their colonies, from mites or nosema or whatever not have any effect on their neighbors? What is the quality of a treated hive that keeps it from being a problem if it collapses and is robbed out?


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

If people want to treat their hives with essential oils... I'd personally be OK with that. As someone who also want to produce a TF breeding line, it makes sense for me to balance the industry by making a radical stance on the far side of the spectrum. It also more fun over here!! You get to make provocative statements to conventional wisdom...

As for the specific use of Thymol, or perhaps a home distilled oil, I do not know I can qualify the effect on medicinal process of the bees. Except that it sounds like I would treat with ess. oil when I want to be on the propolis flow? Late summer/fall... It's also a principality thing... I have trouble believing that I am producing the highest quality product when I know the bees cannot thrive without intervention. Of course, it goes both ways, it would be a moot point if I allowed my hives to spiral into collapse every other year. I have not personally found that to be the case.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Barry said:


> I don't include Dee in this group for obvious issues that surround her bee genetics. I wouldn't include Weaver either as they are a queen/bee producer, not honey/pollination.
> 
> .


And a large part of the remainder of the TF Commercials appear to be people who live a little too "Hand to Mouth", or perhaps I should say "Natural".

Show me a TF Commercial who lives a middle-class existence. You know... wife, kids in college, car payments, mortgage.... The established nonTF commercials I know live relatively main stream lifestyles..... except for being on the road so much.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

BOO on the consumer lifestyle...


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Barry said:


> I figured I'd have to eventually respond again to my comment. When one stacks up the commercial beekeepers and divides them into two groups (TF & T), we have a speck on one side and pretty much the whole mountain on the other. I don't include Dee in this group for obvious issues that surround her bee genetics. I wouldn't include Weaver either as they are a queen/bee producer, not honey/pollination.
> 
> Point is, if and when we see some real numbers on the TF side, I'll start giving some weight to the guys like Pipiyolti that come on here and throw their verbal stones.


Well, if he was a shill for the miticide industry... mission accomplished.

The way science works, you evolve a hypothesis and test it. If the results support your hypothesis 999 times out of a thousand, but just once you get results that contradict that hypothesis, then either there was an error in the experimental procedure, or there's something wrong with the hypothesis. Then it's head-scratching time.

The debate is usually framed in these terms: if you don't treat, you can't make money with your bees. There are folks making money with untreated bees, so that theory is down the drain, even if only a few are doing it.

You could have said the same thing about organic farming-- only a few are doing it, only a tiny percentage of our national acreage is devoted to organic crops. 40 years ago, you'd have had trouble finding *any* organic farmers, and now it's a growing segment of the market.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

My hypothesis is that if there was money in not treating, all the commercial beekeepers would be doing it.

I've spent years reading Beesource and eventually signed up. One of the things that has been constant is a small but ever changing group of entry level treatment free beekeepers telling commercial beekeepers how they should be doing their jobs. The example in this thread was just one of many, who believe they know better and the "opposition" to them are just mindless old farts. I've even seen one of them offer to run a commercial guys outfit, the way it should be run.

The other constant, is that none of these people have ever gone on themselves to be successful commercial beekeepers, despite some of them saying that is their goal.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hazel-Rah said:


> If people want to treat their hives with essential oils... I'd personally be OK with that. As someone who also want to produce a TF breeding line, it makes sense for me to balance the industry by making a radical stance on the far side of the spectrum. It also more fun over here!! You get to make provocative statements to conventional wisdom...
> 
> As for the specific use of Thymol, or perhaps a home distilled oil, I do not know I can qualify the effect on medicinal process of the bees. Except that it sounds like I would treat with ess. oil when I want to be on the propolis flow? Late summer/fall... It's also a principality thing... I have trouble believing that I am producing the highest quality product when I know the bees cannot thrive without intervention. Of course, it goes both ways, it would be a moot point if I allowed my hives to spiral into collapse every other year. I have not personally found that to be the case.


"propolis flow"? 

"It's also a principality thing." Huh? I don't understand.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hazel-Rah said:


> BOO on the consumer lifestyle...


Oh, you radical.  ha,ha I bet we are closer to each other lifestylewise than you might think. Except I don'y have any horses anymore.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I think he'd be talking about pre winter when the bees start gumming everything up with propolis.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Hazel-Rah said:


> If people want to treat their hives with essential oils... I'd personally be OK with that. As someone who also want to produce a TF breeding line, it makes sense for me to balance the industry by making a radical stance on the far side of the spectrum. It also more fun over here!! You get to make provocative statements to conventional wisdom...
> .


Would you recommend using a little cannabis in your smoker? As long as it was naturally grown Cannabis.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Hazel-Rah said:


> BOO on the consumer lifestyle...


Oh come on. There has to be some standard. I totally agree with Herb. Let's compare apples to apples.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

WLC said:


> Could you use similar types of bees for commercial pollination?
> 
> I don't see why not.


I can sure see a reason why not. I'm sure growers and other beekeepers would not put up with the aggressive behavior I've experienced with Dee's bees.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Barry said:


> I see D. Semple already beat me to it, but I think this is the big difference. Of course we can debate what "profitable" is, but I have yet to see a TF beekeeper make their sole living from their bees.


Really???? Been doing so since 2009


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Pollination?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

That's great! I'm still using one hand to keep track of all you TF commercial.
Got kids Tim? Live in something besides a double wide? You guys will have to convince me you're making a middle class living before I take notice.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Barry said:


> That's great! I'm still using one hand to keep track of all you TF commercial.
> Got kids Tim? Live in something besides a double wide? You guys will have to convince me you're making a middle class living before I take notice.


No kids that I know of. No debt, all properties paid in full. I'm not going back to the $28hr middle class job....


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

Excuse me, I certainly misused the word 'principality'. Sometimes I just get carried away with the rhythm of the words. Also, Oldtimer's got it, 'propolis flow' refers to the time of year when the bees really stick to it. And not, that I really care, but I identify with female pronouns  

The idea I am trying to convey is, 'the principle of the matter'. Are my bees producing the most vital product they can while I am medicating them?

Also I cannot see a correlation between lifestyle and the ecological imperative of TFB. Did it occur to anyone that maybe, (please allow me a broad generalization) that people who value TFB might have different lifestyle values?? That does not in anyway invalidate the effectiveness of TFB. 

Also, bees do not have cannabinoid receptors... so I hear.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Isn't the U.S. the only country that has migratory pollinators on such a large scale?

It's kind of a local thing.

Regardless, I can see how a stationary Honey producer can kick some serious margin in the right part of the country.

I'm not going for the "Must Be Migratory" condition on TFBers.

Besides, those guys get bees from wherever to meet their contracts.

It's factory, not artisan.

That's apples and oranges.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Hazel-Rah said:


> Also, bees do not have cannabinoid receptors... so I hear.


Who is worried about the beeees........


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Lest we forget this past winter's California Almond Pollination drama.

They were getting bees by any and all means.

It was about quantity, not quality.

Giving them resistant stock would be a complete waste.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Barry said:


> That's great! I'm still using one hand to keep track of all you TF commercial.
> Got kids Tim? Live in something besides a double wide? You guys will have to convince me you're making a middle class living before I take notice.[/QUOTE
> 
> The honey in my 3rd deep boxes alone is worth more than full year's worth of union scale...
> But I like my TF/SF bees.....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nice of you to share Tim.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

WLC said:


> I
> 
> Regardless, I can see how a stationary Honey producer can kick some serious margin in the right part of the country.
> 
> ...


Yes... I agree with you... but those parts of the country are not very large and are shrinking as we speak. For most of the guys I know honey is about 1/3 of the gross.... at least in this part of the country.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

[

The honey in my 3rd deep boxes alone is worth more than full year's worth of union scale...
But I like my TF/SF bees.....[/QUOTE]

You are getting a premium for that TF honey... right?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

rhaldridge said:


> You could have said the same thing about organic farming-- only a few are doing it, only a tiny percentage of our national acreage is devoted to organic crops. 40 years ago, you'd have had trouble finding *any* organic farmers, and now it's a growing segment of the market.


You forget the redefinition of organic by USDA. Stuff is allowed nowadays as certified organic that is scarey. There is a growing "organic" presence but there is a surge in local food production too.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

Oldtimer, how many young people do you know who get into bees that aren't TF and are successful?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Hazel-Rah said:


> Oldtimer, how many young people do you know who get into bees that aren't TF and are successful?


If you dont mind me answering, that is a really big group, pretty much everyone I know in commercial beekeeping has been in it from a pretty young age. 100+ for sure.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I know some beekeepers who have gone out of business, some who have aged out of business, but for the most part, of all of the people I know who are keeping bees, I would say that they are successful at what they do. NonTF and TF.

Young folks getting into beekeeping TF or non, who are willing to stick w/ bees aren't going to let set backs knock them out.

Hazel-Rah, what do you mean by successful?


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

I guess I need to be more specific... i was referring to a quote OT said a page back or so, about new beekeepers getting into TF and not becoming successful. So the truth is I don't know what he meant by 'successful'. 

And I don't mind your response Jim but in theory I was referencing a more contemporary movement in beekeeping. How many people under the age of 25 are getting into the 'business' of beekeeping? Regardless of TF/non-TF, or scale... but just making a few bucks off bees, raising nucs or queens? Selling a few gallons of honey?

If it's anything like draft farming or farming in general, the number is like... zero.

Also, how do you use the 'reply with quote' anyway??


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Hazel, 
I know a good number of young keepers. They are trying to push from 400 to 1000, where they can give up their day job. But that requires an investment of $250k or so, so all their income rolls into capital expense.

Thing is, none of them have any surplus honey. They split 2-3 x a year, as soon as the hives build up enough they divide and break down the super. The income is pollination and selling "Almond' 6 (filled) frame deeps to others trying to make up a contract, and of course all that sales income goes into the "skid-steer fund". 

They got started loading hives for migratory outfits, got to keep some dinks that the South Dakota rigs didn't want to haul back.

They make this yearly cycle Almonds> Stone fruit >Spring Split> Wild Sage (maybe some honey)> Avocado (no one wants that green molasses)> Watermelon> Cotton (the summer crops are net losers)> Splits> Wild Buckwheat (winter conditioning)> Eucalyptus and Willow (for Almond buildup). 

The established outfits have Citrus contracts, but you have to inherit those. I expect some get desert Alfalfa seed in the fall, but that's out of my area.

Thing is this is hard work, all the weekends, away from the wife and kids, and then back to the day job. 

Until you stop having "Almond Milk" smoothies on your organic granola, don't throw stones.

((Almonds are planting "Independence" -- self-pollinating trees, as fast as they can bud them to whips.)) This is going to have huge repercussions as the pollination demand collapses.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

I haven't eaten almonds in years. In fact, I boycott them as 'pseudo-bourgeoisie'. 

I put raw milk in my smoothies, that comes from the cow down the street.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

hpm08161947 said:


> [
> 
> The honey in my 3rd deep boxes alone is worth more than full year's worth of union scale...
> But I like my TF/SF bees.....


You are getting a premium for that TF honey... right?[/QUOTE]

Absolutely......


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

Wouldn't it be nice if those young folks could take that incredible $250K and throw down on some property in a community that supported them? Instead of schlepping their butts off for the unthankful yuppies who prefer their produce out of season and transported by truck to Whole Foods?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Hazel, you have to accumulate the capital first. These young keeps I know are from the mountains of Michoacan. They come from a community tradition of beekeeping (older than the US) and are used to African bees (err, Beeweaver bees). 

To an individual, they are as responsible and reliable and kind as your closest neighbor. I think this comes from fleeing the horrible drug war in the mountains of Michoacan, they know how lucky they are to be in a country of peace and plenty, and want to make it better. Kind of like the Irish emigrants of the 1850's.

I also now some start up keeps from the Ukraine. The less said the better, sort of an underhanded Russian mafia ethos. But, I've heard better reports from others.

I researched/cruised timber and endangered species in the Humbolt-Del Norte and Kalmiopsis (Curry County) region from the 1970's -'95. The whole coast range is awash in Ganga-Dollars. Even if you are straight arrow as a Mormon, your economy is driven by the wholesale price of herb. I've seen a couple of cultural turnovers since I began -- carefree hippies, paraquat and helicopters, a Halycon period in the '80s when a lot of lives were destroyed by mountains of Coke, the "Motorcycle Club" era -- ask me about the Meth Confederacy of Whitethorne, and the current mixed period of "medicinal" and Mexican cartels. Point is -- this drives the economy, and your raw milk and neighborhood cow community, is just an epi-cycle on the larger "pseudo-bourgeoise" demand for the "good herb".


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

JW:

What do the Michoacán beekeepers use for treatments w/ their EHB/AHB stock?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Nice accented á, I appreciate that.

There is a Treated > TF conversion going on. They split like crazy, so the hives are young and not mite laden (but some don't establish and they lose a substantial fraction --not Almond ready). If they don't have six frames in January they combine back to a stronger hive.
They use liquid Taktic in oil (on towels) or mixed in water and sprayed when the mites show. I expect there is a Taktic to South Dakota barter that explains the acquisition of migratory hives left behind. No one talks about that. 
They requeen in April, and if they can afford it, in September.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

.
Wow fascinating life you lead JW Chestnut. Who pays your wages?



Hazel-Rah said:


> Oldtimer, how many young people do you know who get into bees that aren't TF and are successful?


Oh I get it, Hazel - Female! thought I was talking to a guy all this time! 

Re young people, well to me, nearly everybody is young LOL. You'll understand one day. 

Forgetting about who is young, as I don't think I ever mentioned anything about that, how do I define success? I don't know quite which post of mine you refer to but if it's the one I'm thinking of I meant by not succeeding that they lose all their bees and quit.

How many (either young or new) do I know? On Beesource, a few both TF and non TF, don't really know. Personally? Non TF many, TF more than 18 months none.

Not sure quite what you were asking but whatever it was hope that answered it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hazel-Rah said:


> How many people under the age of 25 are getting into the 'business' of beekeeping? Regardless of TF/non-TF, or scale... but just making a few bucks off bees, raising nucs or queens? Selling a few gallons of honey?


I was 23 when I got my first hive, but didn't really start selling honey until I was 33.

Seems like a lot of new beekeepers are young. The average age of beekeepers seems like it has always been high, 45 maybe. How old were you when you started?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Hazel-Rah said:


> Also, how do you use the 'reply with quote' anyway??


After you click the "Reply with Quote" button, you will have a compose message window with the entire previous message (quote) bracketed by BBCode in brackets, similar to the below example: (note that in this example, for brevity, I have already edited out the non-relevant part of the quote from message #228.): 

[QUOTE="Hazel-Rah, post: 993524, member: 94020"]Also, how do you use the 'reply with quote' anyway??[/QUOTE]

Use your mouse to remove the non-relevant parts of the quote. Don't mess with the code that is inside the brackets. Make sure to leave the brackets themselves intact and balanced. Keep in mind that every quote *must *end with the BBCode of [/QUOTE]. Once the quote is how you want it, click in the blank area below the quote and type your reply.

If you want to preview how it all looks before you post, click the "Advanced" button, then "Preview Post". (In certain situations, the "Preview" button may _already _be visible.)

Once you have mastered this part, it is _possible _to quote from multiple messages in a single reply. Also, there is some help available in the forum FAQ.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb3_reading_posting#faq_vb3_replying

More info on BBCode is available by clicking the BBCode link at the _very _bottom of every thread page.

.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Young folks getting into beekeeping TF or non, who are willing to stick w/ bees aren't going to let set backs knock them out.
> 
> Hazel-Rah, what do you mean by successful?


My first 6 years I was losing 50%-98% every winter. 

Huge difference between Cash and Capital. I have plenty of Capital, but I'm not going to roll the dice. Cash onhand end of year dictates how much increase can bee made next year.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Specialkayme said:


> Based on the subject matter (pitting TF and non-TF beekeepers against each other) I'd say you have a 0% chance of accomplishing this.
> 
> You could get a bunch of treatment answers with no TF replies, or a bunch of TF answers with no treatment replies, and that will likely end in a civil manner (at least possible). But you wouldn't get much of an answer to your question (at least an unbiased one).



I have several multi-year TF/SF(sugar free) zero loss yards. Non TFs ARE A HUGE RISK to me..


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Tim:

Which factors do you think were responsible for your success after the initial high loss rates?


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

WLC said:


> Tim:
> 
> Which factors do you think were responsible for your success after the initial high loss rates?


Concentrated on local genetics, swarm caught early after a high loss winter (65% of the association 98% personal). The decision to never use sugar again seems to be the biggest factor.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

WLC said:


> Tim:
> 
> Which factors do you think were responsible for your success after the initial high loss rates?


Knowing how and when to makes splits using naturally raised Qcells.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Would it be fair to say;

"Obtain resistant feral colonies, use a probiotic philosophy, and manage swarm cells/instincts to advantage."? 

The first two are pretty straight forward.

The last part is quite frankly "The Art" of TF management.

Yes Tim, I have been paying attention.

I found Paul McCarty's slideshow on NM ferals informative:

http://www.slideshare.net/PaulMcCarty/beekeeping-with-nm-feral-bees-v2

I especially found the concept of blending in other genetics by using virgin queens/cells insightful.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

WLC said:


> Would it be fair to say;
> 
> "Obtain resistant feral colonies, use a probiotic philosophy, and manage swarm cells/instincts to advantage."?
> 
> ...


Correct... Nothing fancy or a patentable solution that most are looking for the way I see it.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Some folks have expressed the opinion on this thread that TF beekeeping is impossible in a commercial setting.

Tim Ives has not only demonstrated that it's possible, he's laid out the practical theoretical considerations required to make it possible.

Barry, he did it. Feral resistant genetics, probiotics, and harnessing the swarm instinct.

He got everything right.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> How old were you when you started?


I got my first hive when I was 20, and I've been keeping bees consistently for 5 years. Tried grafting this year and sold a few queens (on craigslist HAHA), and sold a couple gallons of honey at the local market. I've been making propolis tinctures for a few years and tried my hand at some 'propolis traps' this summer. So hopefully I'll have a surplus of tincture this year
to sell. Hopefully I didn't just give myself away it terms of credibility!!


Oldtimer said:


> Oh I get it, Hazel - Female! thought I was talking to a guy all this time!


It's OK, OT... I'm pretty much used to being not only the youngest person at Ag and BK conferences, but also the gender minority. I can however, pick up a capped Lang super... but NOT a deep!!! HAHA



Tim Ives said:


> Knowing how and when to makes splits using naturally raised Qcells.


Thanks for your input Tim! Are you using naturally raised QC because you feel that's more efficient then grafting? Or, are you just figuring that after a few seasons that the drones from your strong hives will be a more direct genetic influence on your stock?

Wow, look at me using these quotes like a pro!!

Also, JWChestnut - Sounds to me like our next generation of migratory bkrs is trading the oppressive violence of their home country for the subtle enslavement of industrial agriculture. Hmm, not to heart warming... Sorry, I know that's might ruffle some. $250K is an obscene amount of money, for that much capital would should be building resilient communities of people based on holistic land practices. Not subjecting ourselves to the predatory fluctuations of fossil-fuel based comemercial agriculture.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

People do what they know how to do and live the way they know how to live. I believe you denigrate their choices by equating hard work and sacrifice to slavery. The way you express yourself makes me curious about your background, your ancestors.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

I no way do I equate hard work and sacrifice with slavery. I get up every morning and feed cows, pigs, horses and chickens, then I schlepp around irrigation pipes and then I harvest from the garden. Then I might rake some 3rd crop hay with horses, or seed alfalfa or winter wheat and then I take a nap. Get up in afternoon and do it again! Sorry, I didn't mean to go on a self-righteous rant...

But what I do equate to slavery is people's choices/lifestyles in this world being dictated by market demands and capital requirements. Your telling me those same beekeepers wouldn't rather invest a fraction of that money in a 'system' that kept them closer to their families, held a lower margin of bankruptcy and allowed them to make choices free from economical fluctuations. If only we could see this as a practical model solution, instead of just jumping into the industrial model because that's the only example we have to follow. Sure, I just made an assumption.

Sign me up as number one privileged, middle class, white girl. Somewhere back there my folks came over on a boat from Ireland.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> The way you express yourself makes me curious about your background, your ancestors.


I am guessing... Dartmouth, Brown, Harvard??? Disenfranchised upper class...... No offense - Hazel...... I used to run with that crowd.....


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

Hmm, never went to college (it's a scam), barely graduated high school... fell straight to farming apprenticeships.

Yes, disenfranchised... my privilege does not mean I can ignore that others do not have it. Or pretend that everyone has equal opportunity for it.

How off topic are we allowed to get here?


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Hazel-Rah said:


> Hmm, never went to college (it's a scam), barely graduated high school... fell straight to farming apprenticeships.
> 
> Yes, disenfranchised... my privilege does not mean I can ignore that others do not have it. Or pretend that everyone has equal opportunity for it.


Huge scam....


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Hazel-Rah said:


> Thanks for your input Tim! Are you using naturally raised QC because you feel that's more efficient then grafting? Or, are you just figuring that after a few seasons that the drones from your strong hives will be a more direct genetic influence on your stock?


I let the bees raise the queens under their on conditions. Not stressed doing so.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hazel-Rah said:


> Sure, I just made an assumption.
> 
> Sign me up as number one privileged, middle class, white girl. Somewhere back there my folks came over on a boat from Ireland.


Yes, I think you made a number of them. Maybe you should ask the folks you are talking about how they see things, how they feel about it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hazel-Rah said:


> How off topic are we allowed to get here?


Knock yourself out. Throw in a comment about TF beekeeping and the Moderator will probably go easy on ya.

Two years in OH. Cpl of the nicest sets of memories in my life.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

Surely, that's my favorite thing. But I've done enough reading into the marginalized cultures to understand the irrational idealization of the modernized 'American Dream'.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

"The way you express yourself makes me curious about your background, your ancestors."

At this point, I have no questions about yours. 

:lookout:

Hazel, it pays to have a degree or two. You would have picked up on what he was saying to you immediately.

Don't fall for the bait.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Worked for you WLC Huh? 

Interesting to see the change of tone since the last thread you were on with Tim.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

You mean, you pay to have a degree? Completely debt-free and looking forward to nothing but property taxes on my farm... until I can figure how to dodge those too! 501(c)3 status??

At this point I've been accused of being over-educated, under-educated, and -most to my horror- drinking almond milk! Not too worried about the rest, but thanks for looking out for me! I do feel a little sheepishly autobiographical in this thread...


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Hazel-Rah said:


> Surely, that's my favorite thing. But I've done enough reading into the marginalized cultures to understand the irrational idealization of the modernized 'American Dream'.


I was just discussing this sort of thing with someone. The topic was. are you willing to be an millionaire? It is not an issue of weather most people can make a million dollars. a million dollars is not even considered wealthy today. the wealth line is not at 10 million. So why are there not more millionaires? why is not everyone a millionaire? And I don't believe it being possible, or I should say impossible is the reason. I could list dozens of ways all perfectly doable and still 99 out of 100 people would not do any of them. The reasons they would not are included in issues like. Risk, dedication. effort and sacrifice. How many people wish no more than they had abetter paying job. yet will not actually take action to get it? If in fact you are not willing to do what it takes to marginally increase your income. what make you think you have what it takes to drastically increase your income? I admit I am included in the group of non millionaires. But I know why I am there. a million dollars is not worth enough to me. I like having a life that includes to many other things. I don't even desire the things a million dollars would get me. I own a $200,000 home. I don't want a $500,000 one. I want a $50,000 piece of land if anything.

So I do not agree that the American dream is idealized or irrational. I just think people do not desire it enough. They would welcome the benefits but are far from willing to earn them. So I suppose in that manner you could consider it irrational. It does not change the fact it is achievable if you are willing to do what it takes. For me it is more of an issue of those not being willing to do for themselves what they would be perfectly capable of doing. Americans have become slothful. now that may very well be true.

Okay so Barry does not delete my entire post here is my token bee comment. Hypothetical based on some actual events. Not sure how on topic this is but it is regarding increase and the potential for increase.

This past spring I had 5 colonies, 4 of which where strong built up well and on average produced 15 queen cells in preparation for swarming. Now that is the actual. For the hypothetical and in a perfect world this means I should have been able to increase by a factor of 15 times my strong hives. or from 4 to 60. This would of course required I sacrifice any production or income other than selling some of the splits as nucs. It also would have required I fund the cost of such an increase. no small task when you are working on a shoe string. So fine it is not easy. never should have thought it would be. But it is not without potential for return or even profit.

Lets say I did split every hive 15 ways and then sold one third of them to produce a profit on my investment. How realistic or not do you think that is? Not just do you think it is pie in the sky but on a scale of 1 to 10 1 being feet on the ground realistic and 10 being total Alice in Wonderland fantasy. I intentionally did not factor in losses and such just to keep the basic principal simple.

The underlying issue is. Can you outpace even drastic losses with dramatic increase? removing treatment or non treatment from the equation. A secondary question. How much do you think that the success of beekeepers today is increase dependent rather than treatment or non treatment dependent. I am adding this twist at the risk of making my post to complicated in the interest of bringing it back toward the original topic.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

How did socio-economics enter the picture?

Or, perhaps it's an underlying issue?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hazel-Rah said:


> You mean, you pay to have a degree? Completely debt-free and looking forward to nothing but property taxes on my farm...


Me too.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Hazel-Rah said:


> You mean, you pay to have a degree?


Imagine that, Worse still. Did you realize that not everyone even qualifies to receive a higher education? Oh My. It is not a right.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> I was just discussing this sort of thing with someone. The topic was. are you willing to be an millionaire? It is not an issue of weather most people can make a million dollars. a million dollars is not even considered wealthy today. the wealth line is not at 10 million. So why are there not more millionaires? why is not everyone a millionaire? And I don't believe it being possible, or I should say impossible is the reason. I could list dozens of ways all perfectly doable and still 99 out of 100 people would not do any of them. The reasons they would not are included in issues like. Risk, dedication. effort and sacrifice. How many people wish no more than they had abetter paying job. yet will not actually take action to get it? If in fact you are not willing to do what it takes to marginally increase your income. what make you think you have what it takes to drastically increase your income? I admit I am included in the group of non millionaires. But I know why I am there. a million dollars is not worth enough to me. I like having a life that includes to many other things. I don't even desire the things a million dollars would get me. I own a $200,000 home. I don't want a $500,000 one. I want a $50,000 piece of land if anything.
> 
> So I do not agree that the American dream is idealized or irrational. I just think people do not desire it enough. They would welcome the benefits but are far from willing to earn them. So I suppose in that manner you could consider it irrational. It does not change the fact it is achievable if you are willing to do what it takes. For me it is more of an issue of those not being willing to do for themselves what they would be perfectly capable of doing. Americans have become slothful. now that may very well be true.
> 
> ...


Give me the right amount of money to spend on equipment, protein patties, syrup and queens and I'll go from 500 to 1,000 colonies next Spring before heading North for apple pollination.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hazel-Rah said:


> It's OK, OT... I'm pretty much used to being not only the youngest person at Ag and BK conferences, but also the gender minority. I can however, pick up a capped Lang super... but NOT a deep!!! HAHA


First joined the local bee club when I was 13. Age and newness was no barrier at all, I was warmly welcomed.
What might have had something to do with that was I went there to learn. I didn't tell 20 year beeks where they were wrong and how they should be doing it.

Later when I was 16 I got a job full time beekeeping. For the holidays I'd go home to visit my Mum & while there, if there was a bee club meeting I'd go & catch up with my old buddies. Then, my advice was sometimes asked, and I felt I had the practicle experience to give it.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

HazeL:

You earn a degree. I did pay for my own education without taking out loans.

OT:

Tim and I get along just fine.


-----------------------------------------------

Regardless, I would be very cautious about using socio-economics as a way to compare the two models of beekeeping, TF vs non-TF.

We simply need to be able to say, yes, TFB does work.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

So I see now. 

As another ignorant bum with no degree, I can say it is not essential. Hazel & Tim seem to be OK with their lot also.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> Risk, dedication. effort and sacrifice...So I do not agree that the American dream is idealized or irrational. I just think people do not desire it enough.


It has taken an absurd amount of risk , dedication and sacrifice for me to focus my livelihood on TFB and farming with draft horses... neither of those things are going to make me a millionaire. People born in the lower castes aren't just going to wake up one day and use their work ethic the make a million. Reminds me of a quote... "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." - J. Steinbeck 



WLC said:


> How did socio-economics enter the picture?
> 
> Or, perhaps it's an underlying issue?


BINGO



sqkcrk said:


> Give me the right amount of money to spend on equipment, protein patties, syrup and queens and I'll go from 500 to 1,000 colonies next Spring before heading North for apple pollination.


That's all we need to make this thing go, right? More money? No hate sqkcrk, just having fun...

Oh, and this one too... "The reason they call it the 'American Dream' is because you have to be asleep to believe in it." - George Carlin


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I done it on the cheap most of my beekeeping life and not much progress to show for it w/out debt, either monetary or work hours owed. Equipment companys don't accept sweat in trade unless it has been turned into money. And I don't see doing what I do w/ homemade equipment or w/out my machinery. Pretty hard to get to SC w/ draft horses.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

WLC said:


> You earn a degree. I did pay for my own education without taking out loans...We simply need to be able to say, yes, TFB does work.


The money thing comes second the knowledge that our contemporary educational system is modeled after the theory that educating the masses is key to making them submissive and efficient tools for the upper class. If I HAD to, I could probably find references for that, but instead a quote comes to mind... a little rusty, but something like, "I never forsake my learning for education." - Mark Twain

Also, it was those OTHER people that were trying to justify nonTFB for the sake of 'keeping up with the Jones'.'


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

"Give me the right amount of money to spend on equipment, protein patties, syrup and queens and I'll go from 500 to 1,000 colonies next Spring before heading North for apple pollination. "

What do you think someone like Tim could do with 150 hives, all 3 deeps, if he had double-screen/cloake boards and the woodenware?

It would all be TF/SF, and he wouldn't have to go the migratory pollinator route. He could easily pop out over a dozen queen cells per hive.

Let's see: (150 x 3 X 9)/3=1350. Or, (150 X3 X 9)/2=2025. So, somewhere between 1350 and 2025 colonies.

That's just for the first round folks.

However, he sells honey. With the length of the flow that he's reported, why should he change?

He seems to be very happy at what he's doing, regardless of how much I mess with him.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

WLC said:


> He got everything right.


"You guys will have to convince me you're making a middle class living before I take notice."
I already had to "do the math" years ago when I considered the idea of going into TF beekeeping as a living full time. It didn't add up. And if we can't talk real numbers, it's pie in the sky.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hazel-Rah said:


> The money thing comes second the knowledge that our contemporary educational system is modeled after the theory that educating the masses is key to making them submissive and efficient tools for the upper class. If I HAD to, I could probably find references for that, ...


Malcolm X maybe? That sort of thing was something I learned back in the 1960s.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Alright, enough of the TG social talk here! You know where TG is.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Barry:

What proportion of commercial beekeepers are making an actual middle class income?

They're numbers are dwindling for a reason.

So, you'll have to somehow show real numbers for that so that we have a baseline.

Are most commercial beekeepers actually making a middle class income from beekeeping alone, or are there other sources of income as well?

I dunno?


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Barry said:


> "You guys will have to convince me you're making a middle class living before I take notice."
> I already had to "do the math" years ago when I considered the idea of going into TF beekeeping as a living full time. It didn't add up. And if we can't talk real numbers, it's pie in the sky.



I don't need to convince anyone. I'll keep eating my pie from the sky.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Errr.

It's just a ladder Tim.


----------



## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Malcolm X maybe? That sort of thing was something I learned back in the 1960s.


Actually, Horace Mann... though I'm sure that Malcolm X was hip to this idea. Mann was a MA politician from the early 1800s, he ACTUALLY proposed educational policies used today.



Barry said:


> Alright, enough of the TG social talk here! You know where TG is.


What's TG? Anyway point taken, I'll go derail some other thread!


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Hazel-Rah said:


> What's TG?


A separate, non-beekeeping forum.



> Tailgater - Discussion specific to Politics, Religion, and Societal Issues. POSTING RULES ENFORCED VIGOROUSLY!
> 
> More here:
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?234689-Caveat-Posteri-Let-the-poster-beware


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

WLC said:


> Errr.
> 
> It's just a ladder Tim.



Right.. don't forget I like ladders..lol


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Funny thing is, I had to use a ladder to put on the 7th medium super on my TF, BeeWeaver, Tower Hive, just this past week.

It looks like a good flow this mild, wet summer.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hazel-Rah said:


> What's TG? Anyway point taken, I'll go derail some other thread!


Tailgater. Come join us. We could use some new blood.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

tim, could you talk about your splitting technique a little more?

it sounds like your select your 'weak' hives, the ones that don't move down to the bottom box, and split out the queen and ten frames and one deep and sell that to a newbee.

what is done with the remaining two deeps?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

WLC said:


> So, you'll have to somehow show real numbers for that so that we have a baseline.


The only real numbers we will get are "I don't need to convince anyone." The real numbers are; commercial beekeepers who treat to some degree:99.9%, commercial beekeepers who are treatment free:.1%


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

SP, the thread is here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?288662-Making-splits-using-naturally-raised-Qcells


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Hazel-Rah said:


> What's TG? Anyway point taken, I'll go derail some other thread!


TG?? Only the "Select" may enter. Just ask Barry for the key... you seem like the TG type. You can expound on why Malabar farm is the solution to world hunger.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Barry:

I feel this link might help you to change your mind about TFB and the "middle class".

www.acresusa.com/toolbox/reprints/June04_beehive.pdf‎

It's about hope. Not money.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

It doesn't. He's chosen an alternative. Hardly a mainstream lifestyle.

Crowder says “It is not what you make that is important, it is what you save.”

Well, both are important.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Barry:

I mean really.

I don't mean to pry, but do you consider yourself to be middle class?

I most certainly am.

Or, perhaps working class/blue collar?

Do you see what I'm getting at?

How much money would a TF beekeeper need to make to meet 'the standard'?

I said $40k once. But, that's just a basic 'take home pay' number.

Middle class is much more than that.

Here's part of my point, TFB just needs to meet your needs to be a 'success'.

If you can earn a living at it, even better.

I'm not going to agree that 'middle class' is the standard.

That's just too subjective.

As for the real middle class, we have portfolios, annuities, pensions, investments, assets, etc. .

I'm not feeling you're 'vibe', if you know what I mean.

By the way, Les Crowder's way of life is every bit as valid as my own.

You know where I'm from. You know I understand. I earned my way into the middle class.

WLC.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I'm not interested in passing judgment on anyone, but for goodness sake, when someone says there are TF commercial beekeepers, we have to have an understanding as to what that means. Why have different "classes" of beekeeping if we aren't going to define them and then follow them in our discussion? That's fine, people can call themselves whatever they want. When I see what "commercial" equals with various beekeepers, I know what it means to some and what it means to others. _Most_ of the ones I know share a similar lifestyle.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Barry:

Are they really middle class though? I'm not convinced that everything is 'honky dorey' in the world of commercial beekeepers.

When I hear that the biggest commercial beekeeper in the U.S. lost 55% of his colonies over winter, and is now suing the EPA, you know what I think?

Alot of commercials may be in a spiral.

Meaning, they can't meet their obligations.

So, maybe, just maybe, we need to keep the migratory pollinators out of the TFB 'success' equation.

How about a change in perspective?

How many years do you personally think it will take TFB beekeepers to become 'successful?

Or, have you abandoned all hope?

There's definitely something different about how you feel about TFB compared to a year or so ago.

What happened?


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WLC said:


> Are they really middle class though? I'm not convinced that everything is 'honky dorey' in the world of commercial beekeepers.


Why not go take a look.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Barry said:


> The only real numbers we will get are "I don't need to convince anyone." The real numbers are; commercial beekeepers who treat to some degree:99.9%, commercial beekeepers who are treatment free:.1%


Looks to me you should stop TG and look at what I said.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

WLC said:


> Barry:
> 
> Are they really middle class though? I'm not convinced that everything is 'honky dorey' in the world of commercial beekeepers.
> 
> ...



Already being successful and still climbing the ladder...lol


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Barry said:


> I'm not interested in passing judgment on anyone, but for goodness sake, when someone says there are TF commercial beekeepers, we have to have an understanding as to what that means. .


How about "Makes a living from bees."

If you start parsing the quality and/or magnitude of that living, we all make a very poor showing compared to the oligarchs.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

OT:

We've got the major U.S. beekeepers organizations suing the EPA. That doesn't happen in a 'fat' year. They were taking hives in almost any condition into almonds this Feb/Mar. . Of course, the major pollinators already had their contracts ($s) locked in, but I bet you they had to scramble and pay way more for bees than they wanted to.

They didn't make the money they were expecting.

I don't need to ask.

It wasn't a good year for the major migratory pollinators.

So, why even try to compare them to TFB in socio-economic terms?

Do you know any TFBers who want to become migratory pollinators?

The California Central Valley is like a 'cathouse' from Feb. to Mar. .

It's the wrong Zeitgeist for TFB.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Whatever, your opinion changes constantly. 

But as to your previous comment, like I said, why don't you go take a look.

Cos up to now, you are all theory. I don't know which hole you talking out of.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

OT:

Nope.

I really hate to agree with Randy Oliver, but this mass migration is just a source of so many headaches.

Farmers don't do anything like Almond pollination.

They can't.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WLC said:


> I really hate to agree with Randy Oliver


My experience is you will agree with anyone if they support whatever is your latest rant / theory / brainwave.

EOD you just spouting more theory.

Theorists who don't know, like yourself, have this idea that they can change the world by foisting their theories on a chat site, onto the doers. The real people, who do it.

But, don't work.

Like I said, why don't you go take a look.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

rhaldridge said:


> How about "Makes a living from bees."
> 
> If you start parsing the quality and/or magnitude of that living, we all make a very poor showing compared to the oligarchs.


Correct Ray, that was the original question. 

I replied just the honey in my 3rd deeps alone is worth more than a year's worth of union carpenter wages. Which would be on the top side of what's considered middle class wages.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Tims opinion, is worth something, cos he's doing it.

It cannot be denied though that he is unusual in the world of TF beekeepers. In fact if all the claims are true, he is the most successful TF beekeeper in the US.

Eventually, hopefully, this will become more commonplace. But for now, it's rare.

In addition, in my opinion, some of the treatment methods being used are not sustainable. But others, such as the Jim Lyon model, are very sustainable and will likely continue to be so till after the oil runs out, and then it's not going to matter.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Why not go take a look.


 I have.... All the ones I personally know are in big troubles.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Tims opinion, is worth something, cos he's doing it.
> 
> It cannot be denied though that he is unusual in the world of TF beekeepers. In fact if all the claims are true, he is the most successful TF beekeeper in the US.
> 
> ...


One problem with what I'm doing... There is no patentable solutions to what I'm doing. Can't even really write a book about it, unless you want a picture book. Put bees in a box, then they do this. Add another box then they do this..so on..

Course I got s great picture of Randy Oliver standing there scratching his head as he asks now tell me what your doing again.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Tim the "why not go take a look" comment was addressed to someone who needs to do that, not you.

If you say all the ones you know are in "big troubles", then I'm sure they are. Has to be said though, we've been hearing about "big troubles", "bee extinction in three years", etc etc for years now. The industry still rolls on. And the ones in it that I know, make a middle class income. They do work too hard though, that would be a bigger issue.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

rhaldridge said:


> How about "Makes a living from bees."
> 
> If you start parsing the quality and/or magnitude of that living, we all make a very poor showing compared to the oligarchs.


YES... not to mention it has nothing to do with the ecological imperative of TFB.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

The test of time will determine if TF vs non TF is the more economical route. Check back in 20 years, we should be here.

Not all College educations are expensive. Some get a 4 year free ride, to a private school, and hence no debt.

Some of the contention from commercial people concerning "Bond" beekeepers is that if they stopped letting their hives die, the cost of packages would go down. In the northern areas, a brutal winter can be hard to recover from with out packages.

I have predicted(hence the Crazy moniker) that in 20 years, the only TF beekeepers will be commercial , due to the large capitol investments for decontamination equipment.

Crazy Roland


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

OT:

I'm a partisan.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Tim the "why not go take a look" comment was addressed to someone who needs to do that, not you.
> 
> If you say all the ones you know are in "big troubles", then I'm sure they are. Has to be said though, we've been hearing about "big troubles", "bee extinction in three years", etc etc for years now. The industry still rolls on. And the ones in it that I know, make a middle class income. They do work too hard though, that would be a bigger issue.


True on bee extinction etc,etc. Seems to be more to the grand scale agenda??


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Roland said:


> The test of time will determine if TF vs non TF is the more economical route. Check back in 20 years, we should be here.
> 
> Not all College educations are expensive. Some get a 4 year free ride, to a private school, and hence no debt.
> 
> ...


The test of time is happening NOW. 55% losses last winter. I'll stick to my 8% losses being TF/SF..


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I think that 55% losses might have been to somebody who unexpectedly found himself going treatment free.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Good job!!! Let's let Father time have a good run and then check back. Beekeeping can be like trying to hit a moving target, sometime the target changes speed and direction, and a change in aim point is in order.

Roland Diehnelt
5 th gen. commercial beekeeper.
Linden Apiary, Est. 1852


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

It was Bret Adee fellas.

That was a loss of over 20 thousand colonies.

Let's all agree that comparing commercials to TFBers was a 'bad idea'. 

I get the feeling that Tim isn't remotely interested in sending his bees to California.

I'm astonished that he's already applying a distributive model.

Are you sure you don't have a degree Tim?

By the way, how many folks are there in your 'crew' at this time? I mean disciples.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WLC said:


> Let's all agree that comparing commercials to TFBers was a 'bad idea'.


Why's that? Cos none of them have 20,000 colonies?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I wouldn't call that 'successful'.

My people call that, "A Living Nightmare".


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Why's that? Cos none of them have 20,000 colonies?


Get me 60,000 Hive bodies and 3-4 years.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

You mean lawyers and venture capitalists.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

WLC said:


> You mean lawyers and venture capitalists.


Lol...ya, them too...


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I know both.

Tim, how many folks do you have using your methods?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm trying it. 

Had some hives set up the Tim Ives way for several months now. Just, I don't mess with anything smaller than deeps, all gear is deep. Don't think Tim would see that as an issue though.

Call me anything, but not closeminded.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Except, I'm using some pretty mixed genetic stock.

These BeeWeavers are noticeably different. They kinda resemble what I'm seeing in Tim's videos.

Do you have anything like them in NZ.?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Could you clarify the question? You referring to yourself? I know nothing of your bees.

You are saying you use Tims method?

Or you mean your bees? Tims bees? Beeweaver bees? What?


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

WLC said:


> I know both.
> 
> Tim, how many folks do you have using you methods?


In my immediate area 8-9 last winter out of 150ish. Hard telling now after comparing winter losses. Southern Indiana atleast a dozen. Northern Jersey-a lot. One guy Ed was already close to what I was doing, just wasn't supering soon enough. 
Hard telling how many in the state. I'm pretty vocal at both State meetings. The creator of the IBA just lives 5 miles from me. 2011 he lost 50%. Every time he drives into town, he drives by a 6 year Zero loss yard. As he's picking up his deadouts in the spring I'm supering up. How many years would you have to see that before you stop arguing the set paradigm of beehaving. I don't care if you been keeping bees for 60 years. Your's are dead.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Tim Ives said:


> I have.... All the ones I personally know are in big troubles.


I don't mind hearing Tim talking up what he is doing, I find it thought provoking but the above statement says he hasnt delved into the economics of very many commercials. I could tell a lot of stories but it isn't my nature to brag. Plan on having your own extracting setup any time soon Tim?


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

jim lyon said:


> I don't mind hearing Tim talking up what he is doing, I find it thought provoking but the above statement says he hasnt delved into the economics of very many commercials. I could tell a lot of stories but it isn't my nature to brag. Plan on having your own extracting setup any time soon Tim?


I'm fine at the moment, except the 33 frame extractor doesn't keep up well with the Cowen decapper.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

A 33 frame extractor? How does that keep up with world record honey production from 150 hives?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Tim Ives said:


> I'm fine at the moment, except the 33 frame extractor doesn't keep up well with the Cowen decapper.


Ha ha. I'll bet not. At a frame every 4 seconds that gives you about a minute of extracting time assuming you can change a load in a minute. Get your order in early with Cowens, last I heard they were about 3 months out on extracting systems. Must be a few folks making money out there somewhere. . Want to make a wager as to how many are treatment free?


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> I'm trying it.
> 
> Had some hives set up the Tim Ives way for several months now. Just, I don't mess with anything smaller than deeps, all gear is deep. Don't think Tim would see that as an issue though.
> 
> Call me anything, but not closeminded.


Deeps past 6 high...yuck, ouch, Ughh...lol


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

jim lyon said:


> Ha ha. I'll bet not. At a frame every 4 seconds that gives you about a minute of extracting time assuming you can change a load in a minute. Get your order in early with Cowens, last I heard they were about 3 months out on extracting systems. Must be a few folks making money out there somewhere. . Want to make a wager as to how many are treatment free?


I bet I can find something at bank auction somewhere.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Tim Ives said:


> Deeps past 6 high...yuck, ouch, Ughh...lol


Tim I'm quite used to hives higher than me. These days I have to get someone to help me remove the honey though I just can't lift a full deep over my head any more. Still faster than messing with piddly sized 3/4 stuff though I'd rather quit than waste time on that.

Looking forward to see how the Tim Ives ones I've got will compare.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Tim Ives said:


> Every time he drives into town, he drives by a 6 year Zero loss yard.


Six years Tim? How many years do you consider yourself commercial? Like Roland said, lets let time be the judge of "success". You're just starting out.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Tim Ives said:


> I bet I can find something at bank auction somewhere.


Keep us updated Tim and I wish you all the best.....really. I don't wish ill will on anyone, you will learn eventually that beekeeping has a lot of unexpected twists and turns. I won't presume to understand the economics of your business if you don't presume to know mime.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

OT:

I'm a Biologist by training. and I know a different phenotype when I see one.

The whole spirit of what Tim and other TFBers are doing really does depend on bees that are remarkably different than the fully domesticated stock that most folks are used to dealing with.

I think that McCarty did a good job of describing the characteristics of 'feral' stock.

However, if you're not starting out with those type of bees, which aren't like the kind of bees that most folks would tolerate, then I'm convinced that the TF tower hive method won't work.

Do you have bees that you would say don't look domesticated when you start pulling frames?

That's what it's like.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Barry said:


> Six years Tim? How many years do you consider yourself commercial? Like Roland said, lets let time be the judge of "success". You're just starting out.


And how many ZERO loss yards do YOU have in that time period????


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Barry said:


> Six years Tim? How many years do you consider yourself commercial? Like Roland said, lets let time be the judge of "success". You're just starting out.


When you can show me bees that are stronger, then you can put your 2 cents in......


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Tim Ives said:


> And how many ZERO loss yards do YOU have in that time period????


Most of them.

You admit to an 8% annual loss which is considerably higher than mine. How many hives do you have per yard? 8% x's six years equals your yards must be pretty small to have many with no losses over the time frame.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Most of them.
> 
> You admit to an 8% annual loss which is considerably higher than mine. How many hives do you have per yard? 8% x's six years equals your yards must be pretty small to have many with no losses over the time frame.


Losses are occuring on the 40 count yards.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Tim Ives said:


> And how many ZERO loss yards do YOU have in that time period????


Six years Tim. Guys like Roland and Jim have been in it for generations.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WLC said:


> I'm a Biologist by training. and I know a different phenotype when I see one.
> 
> The whole spirit of what Tim and other TFBers are doing really does depend on bees that are remarkably different than the fully domesticated stock that most folks are used to dealing with.
> 
> ...


No disrespect to your claimed biology training, but I was asking for clarification on your question before I could answer it. Frankly, didn't know what you were talking about.

Yes the makeup of Tims bees would be interesting. 

Bees that don't look domesticated? Don't know what you mean or if such a bee exists. Perhaps you mean flighty? Africanised? Please elucidate.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Jim:

Come on already.

You can't compare yellow dent #2 corn to a hedge bet like bee pollination.

You're just spreading you're risk like a good businessman should.

But you know something, if they gave the same support to Honeybee pollination like they did to dent corn, it would be a completely different situation.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Your right about one thing Barry, time does keep telling.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Tim Ives said:


> Losses are occuring on the 40 count yards.


The maths doesn't stack up.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

WLC said:


> OT:
> 
> I'm a Biologist by training. and I know a different phenotype when I see one.
> 
> ...


Your absolutely correct.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Tim Ives said:


> When you can show me bees that are stronger, then you can put your 2 cents in......


This is the ****iness that turns me off when it comes to TF. No one in TF has the history to support them, yet they talk like they do. I'm glad it's going well for you so far. The true test has yet to play out.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Tim Ives said:


> Your absolutely correct.


I am interested in this subject but your post is meaningless. Please elucidate.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

OT:

Flighty, drippy, they came out up between the frames.

Mine are mostly flighty, and agitated.

I paid way too much for them, but that's what it takes. 

My very first bees were a caught swarm, and they were worthless for TFB.

Personally, I don't think a vet like you would tolerate these kind of bees.

I do recommend that you view the link to McCarty's slideshow in this thread.

I find his insights to be really helpful.

You're going to have to throw out 'the book'.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

You want me to read it? Link it. I'm not trolling through 18 pages to make you happy.

Having said that I think you may be onto something with a few of the things you said. Unusual as that may be.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Barry said:


> This is the ****iness that turns me off when it comes to TF. No one in TF has the history to support them, yet they talk like they do. I'm glad it's going well for you so far. The true test has yet to play out.


 Don't worry next year I get more bees and more ****y, year after that more bees and more ****y
. At some point you may or may not get it..... I already got it........


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

OT:

I could literally pull bees up through the hive as they drew out frames.

They follow the highway that you provide.

3 deeps and 7 supers worth.

That's just nuts.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

What are you trying to say?


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Radar, you archiving #347!


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

There's so much cryptic talk here I need a decoder!


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

OT:

It's not in any book I've read.

It's an undocumented behavior/management technique.

There could literally be empty space on either side of drawn/filled frames. They'll keep moving up.

I pulled them up. I couldn't believe it.

Tim was right.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Can you please explain clearly.

The best I can tell trying to fill in the gaps, you are saying you piled a whole heap of boxes on a hive, and then the bees moved up the middle and left the outside frames alone, which somehow makes Tim "right".

That's it? That's a new discovery?


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

WLC said:


> OT:
> 
> It's not in any book I've read.
> 
> ...


Of course I'm right, why do you think I'm so ****y...lol NO BODY had been able to prove me wrong. Don't care how many generations or years you think you know something....


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Tim:

We understand each other pretty well.

Stop messing with these guys. They don't get you.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Since you guys are so "right", why don't you answer any of my questions or explain anything clearly. 

Notice none of my requests for clarity have been answered?

Why the short quip answers that say nothing? Why no full explanations? What's the secret?

You know what I've learned so far from this discussion? That bees move up the middle if you put boxes on. That's a new discovery? Come on guys if you want credibility you got to do better. Blowing off saying you so great with no supporting information proves nothing.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

WLC said:


> Tim:
> 
> We understand each other pretty well.
> 
> Stop messing with these guys. They don't get you.


LOL... They should try one of the State meetings here then....


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Another meaningless post.

I've been trying to take this seriously, but you both confound me.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Can you please explain clearly.
> 
> The best I can tell trying to fill in the gaps, you are saying you piled a whole heap of boxes on a hive, and then the bees moved up the middle and left the outside frames alone, which somehow makes Tim "right".
> 
> That's it? That's a new discovery?


How do I see crystal clear what WLC is saying but you don't?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Tim Ives said:


> NO BODY had been able to prove me wrong....


Please specify what it is you want someone to prove wrong. You are talking in riddles.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Tim Ives said:


> How do I see crystal clear what WLC is saying but you don't?


Dunno. Best guess, you both from the same planet.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Tim:

This isn't going to work if you keep amusing yourself.

I don't particularly like some of them either. But, you know something, you do have to do the right thing at some point.

I know what discovery feels like. It's a drug Tim.

Get functional please.

They have no clue what you're saying.

I understand your message.

Unfortunately. I've got more degrees than a thermometer!

Don't hold them against me.

Heh, heh.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

WLC said:


> OT:
> 
> It's not in any book I've read.
> 
> ...


There is a maximum upper limit tho. Which is dictated by the number of early brood cycles and frames laid out. Hive ratio.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Yup.

It took time to pull them up.

Yes.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

WLC said:


> Yup.
> 
> It took time to pull them up.
> 
> Yes.


With 10 supers on they'll still swarm. A queen will move all the way to the top. You could actually pile another 7 on..


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

WLC said:


> Yup.
> 
> It took time to pull them up.
> 
> Yes.


It gets even more interesting going past that threshold.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> I am interested in this subject but your post is meaningless. Please elucidate.


I can't take non feral stocks and get them to perform the same. Doesn't matter how much drawn comb I give them. Is the simplest way I can explain it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Barry said:


> Radar, you archiving #347!


I'm just watching this whole charade in disbelief! 

OT seems to be a pretty smart guy, but I simply can't figure out why he continues to engage WLC.

And as I tried to point out in an earlier thread, :lookout: it is imperative for a good salesman to be a believer in the superiority of his own product, but being '_****y_' rarely gets the desired result. And promising future ****iness is just _bass-ackwards_!

:ws:

There is _plenty _of material to bookmark, but then when someone actually clicks the link to the incriminating quote, there will be no intelligible context to be found! :lookout:

:digging:


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Ah!

It's a new package install.

But, I'm very concerned about next March, if they do survive.

I'm plan to wait for winter before removing supers. I prefer to wait for them to cluster.

However, I'm not looking forward to dealing with such a large number of bees.

I've got the equipment and protection, but it's a management issue that concerns me.

My goal is to have survival stock, and some feed.

I really don't want to spread out to a dozen colonies again, because that was too time consuming for my own needs.

The colony I'm worried about can become a swarm issue, if you know what I mean.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

WLC said:


> Ah!
> 
> It's a new package install.
> 
> ...



Correct on the last part and still a slight possibility.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I'm just watching this whole charade in disbelief!
> 
> OT seems to be a pretty smart guy, but I simply can't figure out why he continues to engage WLC.
> 
> ...



You can disbelieve and say whatever you desire. Results are speaking for themself, according to the number of times my name comes up in 37 different threads that I DID NOT put there. Archive away.....


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> no intelligible context to be found!


Wasn't learning anything, took a break, came back and re-read the last few pages, decided this was the truest statement made.

Giving up on it.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

I believe this thread needs a picture book.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

It's the Tim and WLC show. nudge nudge wink wink if you know what I mean

Geez give us a break

What a waste of space, and hasn't this thread gone way off topic.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't understand this complaint about TF beekeepers.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Someone wanted to use commercials/migratory pollinators as a standard for success.

I felt that it wasn't appropriate for a number of reasons as stated above.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Give me the right amount of money to spend on equipment, protein patties, syrup and queens and I'll go from 500 to 1,000 colonies next Spring before heading North for apple pollination.


So what is the right amount of money? When do you need it by? What do I get out of it?


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Barry said:


> This is the ****iness that turns me off when it comes to TF. No one in TF has the history to support them, yet they talk like they do. I'm glad it's going well for you so far. The true test has yet to play out.


 Why does my neighbor down the road that does $5-10 million in honey sales according to manta.com asking me how to keep bees?????


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't understand this complaint about TF beekeepers.


Okay, okay. I created a monster. 

Folks can complain that quite a few TF beekeepers are ****y, and *that* complaint I do understand. But I don't mind, because it's a complaint against a personality type, and not an entire approach to beekeeping. There are ****y conventional beekeepers too.

I suspect that Tim's ****iness is something that developed at least in part because he's taken a lot of crappola from conventional beekeepers over the course of developing his methods, especially back when he was losing most of his hives every winter. Here he is now with a few hundred highly productive hives, with unusually high survival rates, and folks are still telling him that Real Soon Now he's going to discover that he's not as smart as he thinks he is.

It takes a certain amount of ****iness to buck the tide, and if you ave the right personality type, you can use the scorn of those around you to power your urge to excel. For example, I've been a sailor for almost 40 years, One day it occurred to me that I'd never seen a particular kind of boat. I started asking questions about its feasibility in various online boat forums, and got mostly scorn. If I hadn't been a sort of ****y person, I have accepted the common wisdom that a boat like the one I wanted wasn't going to be a good boat, and even if it was, no one would want to build one. I used that negativity to power through the process of building and testing the prototype. I continued to use it to make myself draw salable plans for the boat. Now there are many sisterships sailing around the world.

It would never have happened, had I not been the kind of person who can turn criticism into energy.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

WLC said:


> Someone wanted to use commercials/migratory pollinators as a standard for success.
> 
> I felt that it wasn't appropriate for a number of reasons as stated above.


I do not know if I would call them a standard, but they are the most economically stable group of "Bee Professionals? They also own most of the bees in this country.

It may simply be that if a TF commercial can make it as a full migratory, the he can make it anywhere. The TF notion then becomes truly sanctioned.... anointed??


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Tim Ives said:


> Why does my neighbor down the road that does $5-10 million in honey sales according to manta.com asking me how to keep bees?????


You should be asking him how to keep bees!!


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Barry said:


> You should be asking him how to keep bees!!


Better yet Barry... YOU CALL HIM..... See what he says.......


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Barry said:


> You should be asking him how to keep bees!!


By the way, he's TF and SF now.....


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

How about 'Hybrid Swarm Probiotic'?

I've been trying to come up with a name that actually reflects the model being used.

'Hybrid Swarm' the name given to the EHB/AHB hybrids of Texas. They're probably also the source of most feral resistant colonies in the U.S. .

'Probiotic' refers to protecting the microflora associated with honeybee nutrition. If your bees are only consuming their own honey and pollen, that's probiotic.

So, is 'Hybrid Swarm Probiotic' doable?

Or, how about 'Probiotic Hybrid Swarm' ?

They're probiotic.

They're resistant hybrid EHB/AHB.

And, you're controlling swarm instincts to advantage.

Probiotic Hybrid Swarm.

It's got something.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

WLC said:


> How about 'Hybrid Swarm Probiotic'?
> 
> I've been trying to come up with a name that actually reflects the model being used.
> 
> ...


I've called them unadulterated genetics. Since they haven't been in the hands of someone who is clueless about HONEY bees.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

WLC said:


> OT:
> 
> Flighty, drippy, they came out up between the frames.
> 
> Mine are mostly flighty, and agitated.


We used to have bees like this in Hawaii; however, when the varroa came in, they basically disappeared like all the other non treated bees.
Thought you should know.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm leaning towards Probiotic Hybrid Swarm.

It's definitely 'hipster'.

Of course, if a hipster actually had to work with these bees....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rhaldridge said:


> Okay, okay. I created a monster.


Not really. It just seemed appropriate.


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

WLC said:


> OT:
> 
> It's not in any book I've read.
> 
> ...



I thought it was in "_The Secret_".:scratch:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not "50 Shades of Gray"?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Perhaps it was "_Victor Victoria_" ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Victoria


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I wish I understood some of this discussion. I do understand how to super bees to maximize both honey production and beekeeper efficiency. Making a good honey crop isnt really rocket science, it takes a lot of field aged bees to make honey, they need a lot of empty space above the brood nest to encourage hoarding and they need a nectar source. We give pretty much every hive 3 mediums at the start of the main white honey flow. If every hive isn't good enough to super then we haven't done our job well. Quite often if the flow is heavy we follow up with an additional super where needed and move a boxes around as needed to make the most efficient use of our equipment. We take off that early crop and super back with newly extracted combs which seems to really stimulate additional production. This allows us to segregate our earliest whitest honey and have found that its easier for the bees to quickly fill up boxes directly above the brood nest than to place them on top of a tall hive. The biggest problem with putting on too many boxes is that too often hives just work right up through the middle if the flow is poor and we have to either sort through lots of comb or just run lots and lots of part full frames which don't like to run through an automated extracting system very well. 
I keep hearing all this talk about losses or the lack of them. It's not an issue I worry about or even keep track of that much. Our spring "losses" are the 10 to 15% of the queens that don't catch, there always seem to be 10% or so summer losses which I usually attribute to either poorly mated queens or "second catch" queens moved at the wrong time and maybe another 5 to 10% winter losses (after the move to Texas). During spring nucing season I don't even concern myself with losses, just how much brood there is to work with and what I am going to do with it. If there wouldn't be enough brood to go around then I would consider that a problem but that hasn't happened since our last bad hive crash, nearly 10 years ago, after that year I vowed to never use any more "hard" chemical treatments in our hives.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

"Functionality of Varroa-resistant honey bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae) when used in migratory beekeeping for crop pollination."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22606798

Well, perhaps the question becomes, 'Why do commercial pollinators still treat if they can use resistant stock for pollination?"

I think that the sustainable agriculture philosophy of TFB doesn't really apply to almond pollination, for example.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

SRatcliff said:


> I thought it was in "_The Secret_".:scratch:


That's a great book... Along with "The Power"


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tim, did I thank you for participating? I know how little you care for doing so.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Tim, did I thank you for participating? I know how little you care for doing so.


Agreed. Tim's experiences are interesting reading. I never criticize those who "walk the walk". Likewise I don't expect to hear criticisms of other successful methods that may differ from your own.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I've noticed that about you Jim.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Tim, did I thank you for participating? I know how little you care for doing so.


Correct on the last part... But Thank you...


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

So, is Tim going somewhere?

What are you two, hosts or something?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Jim and Mark and Tim are all beekeepers with large numbers of bees.



WLC said:


> I'm both scientist and _social activist_ ...


:lpf:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What's that about? Or do I want to know?


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Is there a place in the world where varroa mites and bees live in a "balanced" environment? Like, where did the varroa mite originate, and have the bees in that location been wiped out, or did they adjust and learn how to survive the mites?

I live in fire ant country, and to make an analogy, we have been poisoning fire ants for decades. The poisons used keep changing to meet the adaptations in the ants biological changes. Regardless of how well the toxins work, each toxin is only a temporary fix. We're making stronger ants. My limited biology, and I do stress limited, reminds me that ants and bees are both hymenopteran.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Someone asked:

Well, perhaps the question becomes, 'Why do commercial pollinators still treat if they can use resistant stock for pollination?"

'cuz the "resistant stock"(read Minn. Hygienic) is mean, lazy, builds slow, and does not make as good a honey crop as say a Cordovan or Strachen NWC. By using a more productive bee and slowly tapering treatments(from hard to soft, or otherwise), a commercial person can maintain bee performance at all times, and still arrive at the same goal as a TF person, but without the beginning losses. It is all about the "area under the curve". 

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lazy shooter said:


> Is there a place in the world where varroa mites and bees live in a "balanced" environment? Like, where did the varroa mite originate, and have the bees in that location been wiped out, or did they adjust and learn how to survive the mites?


Yes, Southeast Asia on apis dorsata and apis cerana I believe. The story as I understand it is that years ago someone took apis mellifera to SE Asia, the varroa took them as hosts, some infested hives were brought to the Weatern World from there. Roughly speaking, that's the story. Plenty more detail out there I'm sure.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Roland said:


> Someone asked:
> 
> Well, perhaps the question becomes, 'Why do commercial pollinators still treat if they can use resistant stock for pollination?"
> 
> ...


I don't have mean bees, most of my FB pics I'm wearing a tank top and white Dockers. Mite counts averages 1.1-3


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Tim:

Your bees are derived from the 'hybrid swarm'. That's the scientific term for the U.S. feral population. 

BeeWeaver, for example, mates their queens with the hybrid swarm to get their resistant stock.

The hygienic bees are however a domestic line of bees. Although the study I referred to showed that VSH are viable for migratory pollination, they do have 'baggage' of their own.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Depending on how you test and when you test mite numbers will vary widely. Anything over 1% in the spring when the hive is full of brood is, in my opinion, unacceptably high. Anything under 3% in September is very good. We did 1/2 cup mite checks on 50 potential breeders this spring and found a grand total of 4 mites. I found that gratifying but hardly definitive evidence that mites won't be a problem for us this summer. Interestingly enough our late summer mite numbers are the lowest I have seen since first encountering varroa in the early 1990's. Encouraging for sure but not enough to make me ever rest easy.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

great news jim! from what i can gather reading bee-l some of the folks out west are seeing higher numbers this year than last year.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

jim lyon said:


> Depending on how you test and when you test mite numbers will vary widely. Anything over 1% in the spring when the hive is full of brood is, in my opinion, unacceptably high. Anything under 3% in September is very good. We did 1/2 cup mite checks on 50 potential breeders this spring and found a grand total of 4 mites. I found that gratifying but hardly definitive evidence that mites won't be a problem for us this summer. Interestingly enough our late summer mite numbers are the lowest I have seen since first encountering varroa in the early 1990's. Encouraging for sure but not enough to make me ever rest easy.


Correct on timing Jim... That's the range I'm seeing spring to Oct. I'm testing multi-year survivors. Not new splits or overwintered once.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Nosema levels 0.0 million on USDA tests past 3 years. I won't get this years back till next year. DWV+ everything else negative. I'm not seeing Dwv bees as much anymore. 

SHB different story. But haven't seen as many this year vs previous.


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