# Apiary Is Collapsing



## poppy1 (Feb 1, 2013)

Been beekeeping for 7 years now and had expanded up to 25 hives this year from 13 I had coming out of winter.

Well in the last 2 weeks literally, I have lost 8 hives. Now I know that at least 2 of these hives had become queenless and were down to only 1 frame of bees in a 10 frame Langstroth, so I just shook these bees out and let them beg their way in to other hives however the others were just gone but they did leave signs of what I guess is mite collapse. 

Just begging for ideas to save the remaining 17 hives before it's to late


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## Gumpy (Mar 30, 2016)

Is it safe to assume you did not treat for said mites?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Have you treated in the past as well or is this the first time you've had issues?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

The OP wrote in a roughly similar thread last year that he does not treat for mites
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?319042-No-Stores&p=1345826#post1345826

Can't fix this one.


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

If you do not wish to treat for mites with chemicals, then you still need to take other steps to reduce the mite population. 
Have you done anything at all to 
1) monitor what your mite load is and 
2) reduce the mites via various IPM methods?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

On early October I made 8 nuc hives 3-5 frames each.
Then consolidate all the bees into the empty drawn frames with
some pollen frames too. All attaching bees got brushed off
into these nuc hives. The queens are allowed to lay with a fresh new
start. All cap broods are transferred into 1 nuc hive from all
the other hives combine. So basically all the nuc hives are low
in mite population except the only 1 that received all of the cap broods.
Would you rather treat for 1 hive or all 17 altogether? 
I did not treat any of my nuc hives or the one receiving all the cap broods because the vsh bees take care of this issue for me. Check on the emerging bees today. Only see 6 mites in this nuc hive, others are clean so far. Then transferred this emerging bees frame into the 1 vsh nuc hive. If you don't want
to treat then you have to make some kind of hive manipulation to clean up the mites. It will not be 100% mite free but at least give you better result than a mite infested hive going into winter. Lots of big fat winter nurse bees will be infected if you don't do anything about it now. I'm not even sure if it is too late now to make this hive manipulation like I did since winter is just around the corner?
Another option is to try the rebuild after the crashed situation. You have enough hives to try this out. This will allow you to raise some daughter queens from the survivor queen or queens if some made it through this winter. Though the Spring build up will be quite slow. Reality check in 2014: If the queen cannot keep up then the entire hive will crashed in the early Spring expansion phase. By then you can do 2 hives combine to keep the population up a little. But without a way to take the mites away there will be many more infected bees. On the other hand, you can test out your hive's resistant ability this winter. For sure without a resistant trait built in afraid all of your 17 remaining hives will be gone. This is their 2nd year without any treatment or hive manipulation according to the link post above. Are you keeping the resistant bees too?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Seems strange you have been TF for 7 years and all has (presumably) been well, then suddenly you feel all remaining 17 are at risk.

You say there are signs of mite collapse but have you ruled out other main possibilities?

If you have and you are sure it is mites, there are 3 main options, one is you are having one of those crashes that happen to TF folks once every few years, but according to theory you may be left with a small number of survivor bees. Second, you lose them all due to the rolling mite bomb effect, or third you kill the mites and any hive not too far gone already may survive. That's may, as time and season is now against you.


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## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

What kind of queens are you running? What percentage of your colonies are VSH? What is your location like as far as how many other beekeepers are in your area and how many hives do they have? These would help out alot with some answers for you.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Shaking out mite crashes is a terrible idea
Kill off the hive, away from the apiary, don't spread the mites. Those bees are old and expendable anyway


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## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

At my second year I decided I was going to be a beekeeper. I liked the one hive and wanted more. I built up and bought, split, grabbed a swarm. I got to 20 hives. Came out of winter with 2 hives. I then built up to 30 hives and had 6 survive. Then I learned about mites and treatments. I have 18 hives and I expect to have all but 1 survive. Sometimes it takes time to learn to be a beekeeper. We have things thrown at us, some have it easier, some harder but we learn. What I mean is I've been there and it's no fun to go to the bee yard and have no bees.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Dave, if I'm in your situation I would quit beekeeping a long time ago.
Cannot stand the roller coaster ride any longer. How many hives you end up with now?
Finally after bugging the commercial operation for some queens I was able to graft 
some daughters from the 2 mother queens. Somehow the commercial queens can withstand
the mites better than the local bees. Found 1 mite on one of the daughter queens on a hive
check today. This is normal to me!


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

Apivar might save the remainder. You can always shook swarm onto fresh comb in the spring if you're worried about residues in the wax, at least the colonies will have a chance.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I agree that shaking out a mite bomb is a bad idea. Screen them in or put up robber screens and let the hive die out. If I had a bunch of failing hives in the yard this is what I would do.


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## LittleTreeGuy (Aug 8, 2016)

I think if you plan on going entirely treatment free, that is probably the percentage of survival you can expect. Say what you will, mites and the diseases that can move in on a mite infested hive are a real threat. A strong healthy hive can cover up a mite load for a while, but once the weather cools, the drones get kicked out, and the forager bees start dying off, the mite-to-be ratio becomes much larger very quickly. The bees don't have a chance. 

In talking to a lot of local beekeepers, and reading posts, books, articles, etc... it's just darn near impossible to keep bees without some sort of mite treatments. I understand wanting to be "natural", but if your dog, cat, or child were sick, you'd want them to be better. Vaccinations work. 

If you really just decide not treating is right for you, I wish you the very best.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

poppy1 said:


> Just begging for ideas to save the remaining 17 hives before it's to late


If you are in a single yard, find a second location with good forage. Make splits from a couple of good hives this spring. Keep colonies from old established cutouts. Continue growing.


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## poppy1 (Feb 1, 2013)

J.Lee said:


> What kind of queens are you running? What percentage of your colonies are VSH? What is your location like as far as how many other beekeepers are in your area and how many hives do they have? These would help out alot with some answers for you.


Yes I do run all VSH queens. I have a Russian breeder a mile away from my yard and nothing else close that I am aware of.

I appreciate everyone's feedback and it is obvious that some form of treatment is in my future.

Would an OAD work now or what? We are having most unusual temperatures in years in this area. My remaining hives are really using stores but I do have 2 shallow supers full on every hive I have left


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

WAY past the point that OAD would do much good. If that is all you are willing to do just let them die.


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## erikebrown (Oct 27, 2014)

poppy1 said:


> Yes I do run all VSH queens. I have a Russian breeder a mile away from my yard and nothing else close that I am aware of.
> 
> I appreciate everyone's feedback and it is obvious that some form of treatment is in my future.
> 
> Would an OAD work now or what? We are having most unusual temperatures in years in this area. My remaining hives are really using stores but I do have 2 shallow supers full on every hive I have left


There is a point of no return, I think it was 6% in some research, after which the hive may be doomed. I have limited experience, but based on what I've read and seen I would suggest a sugar shake or alcohol wash on some or all of your hives. If you find less than 18 mites per 300 bees (6%) then they are most likely salvageable. More than this and the bees may have trouble recovering no matter what you do.

A Mite-Away Quick Strips (MAQS) is an organic compound that kills the mites on both worker bees and capped brood. There is a chance of queen issues, but if you want to treat that may be your best option. It's a short 7 day treatment for full effect and if it gets cold suddenly you can leave it in the hive for the bees to dispose of.

No matter what you may have high mites in the spring, so consider splits and brood breaks to reduce the mite load then as well.

Good luck!

Erik


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If they are using the stores now and not bringing in much nectar then consider
feeding them Lauri's sugar bricks. This will keep them out of the stores for awhile so
that some will be save for the early Spring build up. Consider brushing the bees off
into 1 nuc hive with the empty drawn frames and the pollen frames for the queen to lay some new eggs. Without
the cap broods you can treat the hive with oav or oad. I only brushed the bees off but did not
treat this season. As of now the 2nd hatch is pretty much mite free in some hives with many healthy looking emerging
bees. Also, the nucs are condensed into a double queens side-by-side deep hive set up except for 1 by itself. This will lessen the mite load though they are still there in lesser amount. Make sure the bees cover the entire frames to keep the broods warm. At least you will save some of your hives and not ending in all dead hives this coming Spring.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If you are going to stay treatment free then I don't think that there is anything you need to do to help the remaining hives survive until Spring. Either they will or they won't. If you are looking for treatment recommendations, it's probably too late for an effective mite treatment that will be any good.

I think you should continue with your program. Unless you are ready to switch teams. In which case, do so starting in the Spring with those colonies that are still alive.


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

poppy1 said:


> Yes I do run all VSH queens. I have a Russian breeder a mile away from my yard and nothing else close that I am aware of.
> 
> I appreciate everyone's feedback and it is obvious that some form of treatment is in my future.
> 
> Would an OAD work now or what? We are having most unusual temperatures in years in this area. My remaining hives are really using stores but I do have 2 shallow supers full on every hive I have left


I am guessing you want to do OAD and not OAV as you don't have the vaporizer? 
If I was in your shoes, in would start using OAV straight away at regular intervals, probably every 5 days, to get the mite counts down. 

If you need a vaporizer, Bud Willis sells them for $100 all inclusive.
https://m.facebook.com/buds.bees


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Treat for mites immediately.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

I guess you order more bees. Want a source who just sent me email yesterday asking for commitments on next spring's packages?
If you're not going to treat for mites then you're going to have to accept that the bees that die off are unworthy of your special sort of attention.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If you are going to treat now use formic acid pads, aka MAQS, aka Mite Away Quick Strips. Follow the label directions. Sample before treating and then after the treatment period is over to see what difference the treatment made.

MAQS or Apivar Strips.


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## poppy1 (Feb 1, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> If you are going to treat now use formic acid pads, aka MAQS, aka Mite Away Quick Strips. Follow the label directions. Sample before treating and then after the treatment period is over to see what difference the treatment made.
> 
> MAQS or Apivar Strips.


Thank you so much for your reply

I would love to remain TF if possible but dang this is frustrating


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It sure is, isn't it.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Apivar yes, but i would disagree with MAQS in this case, my own experience using FA on already mite weakened bees it it is harsh on them and can kill or damage a lot of the already weakened bees and actually hasten the demise of the hive. Apivar very gentle in comparison and no such issues.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

poppy1, hang in there. I lost more hives this last couple of months than you probably will in your lifetime. Gotta keep on top of those mites or the viruses will get you.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

What your treatment regimen Mark?


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

I recommend you use mite away quick strips. They are effective against the mites under brood cappings in addition to those on the emerged bees. 

They are also effective agsinst any trachial mites you.mite have as well. 

Formic acid is considered an organic treatment.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Agree with Oldtimer --- ApiVar (Amitraz strips) is the only thing that *might* pull a hive back from the brink. The "soft chemicals" need a relatively healthy hive to start with. 

It not the OP's fault. The fault lies in the *fairy tales* that are constantly promoted about the ease and lack of issues with keeping bees off treatment. This constant barrage of pure propaganda is hard to overcome.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The OP dosent say what size the hives are he's hoping to salvage but I would generally agree with Mr. Chesnut. If the cluster size is under about 5 to 6 deep frames then most any of the "softer" treatments (though I haven't had any experience with MAQS just formic in general) will most likely be a scenario where the cure is worse than the disease.


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## Bee Arthur (Mar 21, 2015)

I have successfully overwintered bees that suffered from unexpected spikes in mite loads late in the fall, over 8% in fact. I did it by quickly starting a series oxalic acid vapor treatments until the mite loads were close to zero.

I personally wouldn't give up on your bees, especially since you're in North Carolina and may have mild weather for much of the winter. If you don't have your own vaporizor, order one and while you're waiting for it to arrive ask/pay another beekeeper to do the first week's treatments.

I wish you well. But if you don't plan instituting some for of mite treatment in the future, I think you should reconsider beekeeping as a hobby.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If you are so persistent on not treating them consider what I did.
I don't plan to treat this season as part of my little bee experiment through out the year. 
Got all the mites and cap broods on the frames consolidated into 1 nuc hive.
The mild winter there may help too. This is their 2nd hatch and I don't see any mites on some of
my hives either. No DWV and no mites so far on the new hatch. All are healthy winter emergence bees so far. With our mild weather now they are collecting pollen and nectar preparing for the winter months ahead. If this hive is going to be doomed then consider this hive manipulation technique. They are going to die anyways so might as well give them a chance to live!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ian said:


> What your treatment regimen Mark?


Failure to treat at the right time. That's why I think it's too late and they might as well wait until Spring.

When I did start treating this year, after it was too late, as I was pulling the early crop honey off I installed MAQS. Then a couple weeks later I went around again and installed another round of MAQS. Every time more dead colonies showed themselves. Then, after all of the honey supers were off the hives, I started using Apiguard gel. But then the Weather changed and I figured it wasn't going to be effective or effective enough, so I got Apivar strips and got them into all of my hives. Still more have died.

I am hoping that by the time I get my hives to SC that enough of them will still be alive and robust enough to survive until March when I can get them to grow and split. I haven't started drinking yet.

What is your treatment regimen, Ian?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I hear lots of beekeepers using formic and other alternatives but wonder if they actually work. I think they are extremely variable due to too many external conditions.

I treat Apivar Spring
I'm using an OAV treatment as a late fall knock down


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Failure to treat at the right time. That's why I think it's too late and they might as well wait until Spring.
> 
> When I did start treating this year, after it was too late, as I was pulling the early crop honey off I installed MAQS. Then a couple weeks later I went around again and installed another round of MAQS. Every time more dead colonies showed themselves. Then, after all of the honey supers were off the hives, I started using Apiguard gel. But then the Weather changed and I figured it wasn't going to be effective or effective enough, so I got Apivar strips and got them into all of my hives. Still more have died.
> 
> ...


When did you put the MAQS on? Were the temps pretty high? Do you feel it may have resulted in queen loss or simply that they didn't work well and mite counts continued to rise. If I had to guess, I would surmise that MAQS may have been a bit overmatched in late summer large broody hives and the followup Apiguard may not have hit the sweet spot temp wise. Also perhaps if much of your equipment is fairly porous that may result in reduced efficacy? Have these products worked for you in the past? 
Drinking probably won't have much effect on the mites. At his point I'd suggest that a social drink in a relaxed holiday atmosphere may, at least, alleviate a little of the anxiety.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Every time more dead colonies showed themselves. Then, after all of the honey supers were off the hives, I started using Apiguard gel. But then the Weather changed and I figured it wasn't going to be effective or effective enough, so I got Apivar strips and got them into all of my hives. Still more have died.


Seems to me that summer Nosema cera or Chronic Paralysis (both non-mite diseases) could cause the continuing mortality. Chronic Paralysis was bad in my area this year. My intervention was to move affected colonies away to a quarantine. It definitely spreads within a yard.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

JWChesnut said:


> Seems to me that summer Nosema cera or Chronic Paralysis (both non-mite diseases) could cause the continuing mortality. Chronic Paralysis was bad in my area this year. My intervention was to move affected colonies away to a quarantine. It definitely spreads within a yard.


from what I have seen Chronic Paralysis is getting to be a real problem in the last two years, have seen entire yards crashing this summer, up until this year had only seen one hive crash. Seems to be getting more contagious, will be interesting if next year is as bad.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

wildbranch2007 said:


> from what I have seen Chronic Paralysis is getting to be a real problem in the last two years, have seen entire yards crashing this summer, up until this year had only seen one hive crash. Seems to be getting more contagious, will be interesting if next year is as bad.


What specific symptoms are giving you that diagnosis?


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

JWChesnut said:


> Agree with Oldtimer --- ApiVar (Amitraz strips) is the only thing that *might* pull a hive back from the brink. The "soft chemicals" need a relatively healthy hive to start with.
> 
> It not the OP's fault. The fault lies in the *fairy tales* that are constantly promoted about the ease and lack of issues with keeping bees off treatment. This constant barrage of pure propaganda is hard to overcome.


Ahem,,,,,post12


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

When my apiary went through this crashing process 2 years ago, I also consolidate
the hives sometimes 3 hives into 1 to make it stronger. And then treat with oav.
Without this bee consolidation the hives just dwindled away one-by-one. Don't forget about
the hive consolidation to save a few hives. Ended up throwing away 30 frames of drawn comb.
I've since recovered from the crash. And what a learning experience that was.
Makes one feel good that beekeeping is still manageable!


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Ian said:


> *I hear lots of beekeepers using formic* and other alternatives *but wonder if they actually work.* I think they are extremely variable due to too many external conditions.


I have mostly used only FA since 2011. It has always been reliable and effective as long as I use it per the instructions as to the appropriate temperature window.

One year I was late, and had to use Apistan instead- it worked as a one-off, but due to documented resistance occurrences I would not use it regularly.

MAQS has a fairly good application window that is usually not too hard to hit in my climate.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> I have mostly used only FA since 2011. It has always been reliable and effective as long as I use it per the instructions as to the appropriate temperature window.
> 
> One year I was late, and had to use Apistan instead- it worked as a one-off, but due to documented resistance occurrences I would not use it regularly.
> 
> MAQS has a fairly good application window that is usually not too hard to hit in my climate.


I know guys who quit using it completely because of the harsh nature on the queens and late brood. 
I also know a guy who swears by manually applying formic. 

Will you go with a sure bet? Or a hope it works and doesn't kill my hives...


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

wildbranch2007 said:


> from what I have seen Chronic Paralysis is getting to be a real problem in the last two years, have seen entire yards crashing this summer, up until this year had only seen one hive crash. Seems to be getting more contagious, will be interesting if next year is as bad.





jim lyon said:


> What specific symptoms are giving you that diagnosis?



Yea, I would like to know also. Just another thing to look for.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

jim lyon said:


> What specific symptoms are giving you that diagnosis?





Flyer Jim said:


> Yea, I would like to know also.


I would also like to know.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> poppy1, hang in there. I lost more hives this last couple of months than you probably will in your lifetime. Gotta keep on top of those mites or the viruses will get you.


Mark, I'm sorry for you losses. You seem to know what you are doing and work hard without a lot of help. Bees can be almost as humbling as having children.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

jim lyon said:


> What specific symptoms are giving you that diagnosis?


unfortunately I didn't take pictures as I don't carry a camera, but very similar to a hive that I had a few years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-Unp1_Hq30

The first sign was hairless black bees in some of the hives. One set of hives crashed in a couple of day's and the bees were dying faster than you could shake them out of the hive. the beek killed the hive and burned the frames and scorched the boxes just in case, his other hives were fine and mine across the street had no problem .

The second a friend thought he had a pesticide kill in one yard, looked just like the video except the whole yard had dead bees everywhere, no deformed wing in either case, in the second case, checked for nosema, none, so since he figured it was a pesticide kill, we went to his other 12 yards, 4 other yards were similar but not as bad, most of these yards are not in areas where many people are located or pesticides would be used. I got him the address in Montana to send sample, we took samples, but he decided not to send them out, to bad. He figured since it's a virus and there is no cure, no need. These bees had been treated for mites in the spring and showed a very low mite counts. so far he has only lost a few hives but we will see what happens over the winter, they are mite free going into winter with plenty of stores.

two hives in between three of my yards crashed pretty much identical to the ones above, but I only saw the end results on these.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Chronic_Bee_Paralysis_Virus

Hives have hundreds of crawlers spilling off the landing board. The crawlers don't move very far (literally no more than 6 inches) before succumbing. The crawlers build up over several days, starting with just a couple and progressing to hundreds at a time. 
Only one or two hives in a yard will exhibit the symptom, but if left so robbing occurs, the symptom will pop up in another hive quickly.

The black hairless, swollen abdomen bees will be found inside the hive, clinging to the brood frames.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So since virus is without a cure. What is the right remedy for this situation?
I'm thinking to requeen the hive. Will that help with the virus situation?
Isolation and destroying the hive is too painful. But again other nearby healthy hives might
be infected too. Sometimes newbie asking why so many healthy bees cannot fly on the ground.
Now I know!


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

beepro said:


> So since virus is without a cure. What is the right remedy for this situation?
> I'm thinking to requeen the hive. Will that help with the virus situation?
> Isolation and destroying the hive is too painful. But again other nearby healthy hives might
> be infected too. Sometimes newbie asking why so many healthy bees cannot fly on the ground.
> Now I know!


I've seen it twice in my apiary. Once it was devastating the hive. I requeened and it solved the issue. In my second year saw it flare up in a different hive, it took about 30% of the population with it, then went away. I believe some bees are more susceptible than others from a resistance stand point.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Do you remember at what season or month that this happened?
I'm thinking it was at this time in late Autumn time like now. Perhaps at the
end of summer when it all started. What a tricky virus infecting certain hive or queens
but not the other.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Was late September/October first time. Last year was around June if I'm not mistaken. I was going requeen the hive and the bees had started supersedure already. By the time the queen was mated and laying it had disappeared. Go figure. I haven't seen it since.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It might be weather related and the worker bee's health corresponding to
how fat the bees are. The virus has the ability to make the sick bees skinny over time.
Just make sure they have enough to eat and all fatten up to withstand the virus attack. Bee
nutrition play a big role here. Many will get rid of this colony in a hurry. I like to experiment a 
bit so wonder if putting a healthy frame of bees in an infected hive will help. I've never have this
issue before using the commercial bee genetics here. I'm sure the commercial operation went through
many issues before perfecting their bees already.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

beepro said:


> I like to experiment a
> bit so wonder if putting a healthy frame of bees in an infected hive will help.


Being my first year and only having 3 hives, I pulled brood from my strongest hive to see if it would make any difference. I'm convinced that the only reason the hive made it was that brood and the requeening. That particular hive was collapsing from mites as well. It's a miracle it overwintered. I learned much from that hive in terms of what to look out for. It was a mess.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

jim lyon said:


> What specific symptoms are giving you that diagnosis?


so were my symptoms correct for my diagnosis?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

wildbranch2007 said:


> so were my symptoms correct for my diagnosis?


I claim no expertise on virus diagnosis. I have seen what I suspected to be IAPV but never received a definitive diagnosis. I will accept Mr. Chesnut's description in post #49.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

wildbranch2007 said:


> so were my symptoms correct for my diagnosis?


You should gather a sample from symptom hives and send away for analysis


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Ian said:


> You should gather a sample from symptom hives and send away for analysis


If there was something you could do for it, I would agree, if they tell me I have ralphs virus(a new one ), and there is nothing to do, it makes me smarter but doesn't do much for the bees I tell every one that has the symptoms to send it away and get it tested, that way I'll be wiser and not be spending my honey money


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

knowing vs assuming is very important when drawing conclusions.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Ian said:


> knowing vs assuming is very important when drawing conclusions.


so if you knew what would you do different? The hive I had, I isolated, have never removed anything from the hive for the last 3 years, the hives survives, is the virus still in the hive? Can I reuse the supers? can I bring other hives back into the apiary? when the hive dies, I will burn the entire hive and bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mike, you missed another great meeting of the Empire State Honey Producers Association, Inc, these last two days. Had you been there you could have talked to Paul Cappy and/or Emma Mullen about this question and maybe have gotten an answer. Maybe not. You'll never know.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Don't burn it.

Not that i'm very knowledgeable about viruses, but what I do know, is if everyone burned any hive that ever had a virus there would not be a lot of hives left.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Mike, you missed another great meeting of the Empire State Honey Producers Association, Inc, these last two days. Had you been there you could have talked to Paul Cappy and/or Emma Mullen about this question and maybe have gotten an answer. Maybe not. You'll never know.


I know they all have been good since you took over, and you even moved the date but had a more important commitment , but since none of the researchers have come up with an answer I'm not sure what they would have been able to add any information.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Don't burn it.
> 
> Not that i'm very knowledgeable about viruses, but what I do know, is if everyone burned any hive that ever had a virus there would not be a lot of hives left.


But if he did burn it and replaced it with new frames and new wax foundation he'd probably have healthier hives. And just as many.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I know they all have been good since you took over,


All credit to Chuck Kutik.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

wildbranch2007 said:


> so if you knew what would you do different? The hive I had, I isolated, have never removed anything from the hive for the last 3 years, the hives survives, is the virus still in the hive? Can I reuse the supers? can I bring other hives back into the apiary? when the hive dies, I will burn the entire hive and bees.


You haven't, but so many assumptions land on farmers laps.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Not sure about the virus and the bees being able to survive after this incident.
If the bees' immune system are strong then they can survive after the attack.
I would imagine a virus just like a cold virus that it comes and goes at a particular season.
So the virus never go away just there lingering until the right time to manifest themselves.
A little bee experiment I would like to do is to requeen this hive. Sometimes changing to a 
more resistant or stronger bees will help. Whether or not to put more hives back to the same
yard depends on how comfortable you are as a beekeeper to risk it.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Oldtimer said:


> Don't burn it.
> 
> Not that i'm very knowledgeable about viruses, but what I do know, is if everyone burned any hive that ever had a virus there would not be a lot of hives left.


I try to keep my eye open for information about this stuff, here is a post from bee-l debating this very subject.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1611&L=bee-l&F=&S=&P=31928



> You may be correct about the field-realistic exposure levels, yet we find that for some viruses, we can't reuse the combs. In 2010, I put the combs from a collapsed colony into an observation hive wired to monitor bee flight activity. Within 3 months the collapse played out just as one would expect. Best that we could determine, the bees introduced were thriving when placed into the hive.





> Finally, and I will admit this is also anecdotal, since USDA never saw fit to fund our doing continuing research on this, but I see some specific bee operations that still show all of the signs of contagious disease, with recurring collapses every 3-5 year. I'm talking about the colony collapses, dwindling, catastrophic loss (whatever you want to call it), first made public in 2006, still occurring, but now it is more routinely not reported publicly or only reported with lots of caveats of why it is not CCD.
> 
> 
> Hence we get reports that catastrophic collapses and losses no longer occur or are infrequent, when in fact they still occur - but these incidents have become more restricted, mainly to the same set of beekeepers. And, as we know from last winter, if someone else buys one of these operations, the problem follows the equipment and the bees, it's not the beekeepers managing the newly purchased bee operation.


so what I have been doing since ccd came along, if I have a hive that dies and I don't know why, I mark the boxes and use those boxes only on one hive, so far all have survived.
in the case of the one hive that I know had a virus, when they die, they are marked to burn, not worth taking out a bunch of hives reusing the equipment, it's not that expensive.

just dawned on me, he was referencing somebody specific with this, what large out fit has been sold in the last couple of years?



> And, as we know from last winter, if someone else buys one of these operations, the problem follows the equipment and the bees, it's not the beekeepers managing the newly purchased bee operation.


and how do you feel now ordering nucs and packages from some of these large outfits? especially with Toslin and terramycin going away the first of the year?

t:


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Ian said:


> *I know guys who quit using it completely because of the harsh nature on the queens and late brood.*
> I also know a guy who swears by manually applying formic.
> 
> Will you go with a sure bet? Or a hope it works and doesn't kill my hives...


The problem with the statement "I know guys who quit using it completely because..." is that it requires you to make an assumption, actually several, instead of 'knowing'. You 'assume' that they are telling the truth, and getting the details correct; you 'assume' that they followed the instructions properly; you 'assume' that they actually experienced queen & brood loss, and that it occurred despite proper application; and you 'assume' that they have correctly deduced the appropriate cause and effect.



Ian said:


> knowing vs assuming is very important when drawing conclusions.


Yes, quite. We -know- that if MAQS is improperly applied, particularly at temperatures above the recommended maximum, it -will- kill queens and brood.

And in my own experience, I -know- that if I adhere strictly to the instructions with particular attention to temperature, I do -not- experience queen/brood loss.



> Will you go with a sure bet? Or a hope it works and doesn't kill my hives...


Unfortunately, since I have no control over your application methods and attention to details/adherence to instructions, it would be foolish of me to 'assume' that you would have the desired result.

As far as the 'guys you know'...since we -know- that improper application -will- result in loss, which is the more likely assumption- that they did everything correctly and still experienced negative results; or that they applied incorrectly and experienced an -expected- result?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> And in my own experience, I -know- that if I adhere strictly to the instructions with particular attention to temperature, I do -not- experience queen/brood loss.


I know that if I adhere strictly to the instructions I have still experienced occasional queen and brood loss.

It appears you have neglected to consider the condition of the bees prior to treatment as mentioned previously. Already weakened colonies (queens, brood, bees) may not survive the MAQS treatment. Where is the weak/not weak line before treatment? I don't know, but sure know which were too weak to handle the treatment afterwards. Following the instructions to a T can still cause loss. It is of no surprise that some are hesitant or have decided not to use formic.
This is my experience with formic acid treatments as my primary treatment method for over 10 years, no assumptions or second hand accounts.


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

Dave1958 said:


> At my second year I decided I was going to be a beekeeper. I liked the one hive and wanted more. I built up and bought, split, grabbed a swarm. I got to 20 hives. Came out of winter with 2 hives. I then built up to 30 hives and had 6 survive. Then I learned about mites and treatments. I have 18 hives and I expect to have all but 1 survive. Sometimes it takes time to learn to be a beekeeper. We have things thrown at us, some have it easier, some harder but we learn. What I mean is I've been there and it's no fun to go to the bee yard and have no bees.


I have read up a lot about mite cycles in bee hives. Going into winter they grow in population as do coming out of winter. Now look at the info and hopefully people will treat now if they've not. Think about it.... Bees don't really go out away from the hive, so mites are like CHOW TIME 24 7 for 5 months! HECK YAH!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> As far as the 'guys you know'...since we -know- that improper application -will- result in loss, which is the more likely assumption- that they did everything correctly and still experienced negative results; or that they applied incorrectly and experienced an -expected- result?


if your happy running the risk of brood and queen damage, go crazy! 
That risk looms, and needs to be taken seriously


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

This discussion is almost word for word the topic that I have seen dominate club meetings, often resulting in shouting matches, hard feelings and schisms. Many clubs have Treatment Free (and I use that term loosely because the advocates are rarely free, just light) gurus who often get newbees to go TF with disastrous results. If TF is possible, it is not an entry level enterprise, particularly if you live in a bee-dense area. 

FWIW I would rather leave the whole question of whether a meaningfully Varroa resistant bee can be bred...to someone with the resources, discipline and documentation skills to do it well.

I think several well known figures in the bee world are hard at work on this topic, which is good: if they find it can be done (and in all the years of survivor beeyards nobody seems to have cracked this nut) great, if not, we can put this strategy to bed and bend our energies to seeking an effective solution(s).

Meanwhile, can we encourage our new beekeepers to at least use the organic acids so that their colonies do not suffer the ravages of Varroasis? Most of the calls we go out on to help beekeepers in trouble trace back to ineffective Varroa control. It is sad to see new beekeepers give up because their bees keep dying. They should not have to feel they need to reinvent the bee genome! Let them keep bees and keep them healthy so they can at least learn what the optimal arc of development is for a strong colony over an entire season.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Ian said:


> if your happy running the risk of brood and queen damage, go crazy!
> That risk looms, and needs to be taken seriously


Risk? What risk?

I have been applying MAQS since 2011. In doing so, I pay -strict- attention to the instructions- never exceeding the temperature window, strips are installed cold in -exactly- the correct location depicted in the diagram, and an extra box provided for at least the first 2-3 days. In this time, I have -never- experienced queen or brood damage.

Based on my -experience-, if the instructions are followed -precisely-, the results are as expected and no damage occurs.

From this, I deduce that most (if not all) of the stories damage are -most likely- due to misapplication- excessively high temperatures and/or improper location of the strips and/or failure to provide extra room.

I may be lazy (at times), I may be a procrastinator, but I am not stupid and, in many cases I am a perfectionist...especially with something like this (I have been working with acids for decades and I am educated in chemistry/organic chemistry, including post-secondary).

So, what I am doing is successful, and I will keep on doing it.

I can't control what other people do, nor can I control their results. I can see how damage would be likely to occur if the instructions are not followed correctly.

All I'm doing is relating my experience- what I've done and how it has worked for me.

If you want to believe stories of disaster, without having any knowledge of the details of the application and whether or not the instructions were followed precisely, that's your prerogative. The devil is in the details, isn't it?

Rather than simply being fearful of hearsay and rumors in which you lack knowledge of the accuracy of the procedure, you -could- do an experiment and gain some first-hand knowledge. Set up a group of hives and follow the instructions precisely. Set up a second group of hives and deliberately mis-apply the product- Temperature too high, strips directly over/under the broodnest(s), no extra room provided. Then evaluate the results.

I can predict -now- what your results are likely to be- if you mis-apply the product, you will see brood damage and queen loss. This is not surprising, it is an expected result of mis-application.

In the words of Robert Ripley, believe it or not...or find out for yourself.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Mr. BadBeeKeeper
It is my prerogative to pass on beekeeping related experiences, and my validity rests on my reputation. 
A little bit of dispute of the legitimacy of my comments will not change that


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Ian said:


> Mr. BadBeeKeeper
> It is my prerogative to pass on beekeeping related experiences, and my validity rests on my reputation.
> A little bit of dispute of the legitimacy of my comments will not change that


It is the validity of your -sources- that I question, not you or your reputation. IIRC, you have a somewhat large operation and a not inconsiderable amount of experience of your own. It seemed to he, however, that what you were relating was not your experience, but hearsay- things told to you by third-parties. Or am I mistaken?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Yes, good trusted neighbours 
>>this ain't no secret!!<<


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

One fellow who quit using the MAQS, who had been using their earlier products for nearly 10 years, told me he'd rather use their old product


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