# Bees building comb above the bars



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

what kind of hive?


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## bjverano (Jun 18, 2014)

Warre. I thought this was the Warre forum.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I am sure that no one with any experience suggested adding an empty foundationless box (like a Warre box) above the broodnest. That is the problem.


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## bjverano (Jun 18, 2014)

It's not the broodnest-it's full of honey.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

You have to give the bees a ladder comb when placing a new empty box on top. Move one or two up from the filled box.


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## bjverano (Jun 18, 2014)

Thanks. That's a good idea. I rarely open this hive so they have the comb packed in tight. I can borrow from another hive. 
Bonnie


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Arrange your hive so the bees can build their combs without breaking their cluster.

Building combs at the top of a foundationless box that has been put on top will involve breaking cluster so they won't do it. If as per Odfrank you put a comb or two in the middle of that top box the bees can extend their cluster up those combs and once at the top can start building more combs.

The comb they have built upwards from the top bars will be a mess and should be removed at some point, if you practise traditional warre keeping you will probably remove and srape that box at some future time.


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

I give you a hint that will get rid of the pseudo floor effect 

Always remove a partially build frame or any frame that can be removed(from the sides) and put it in advance in another box. For example here is what I did on my warre:
I added the second box above moving one frame in the middle of the upper box. The bees like to build where it is warm - in the upper body. Then after a couple of weeks I took a frame from the upper box and put it in the middle of a new box that I added bellow.

So it depends on the climate but I think the correct way in cooler climates is to add the box above. Observe what the bees do and help them.


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## bjverano (Jun 18, 2014)

I did get the comb off last night. This hive is 3 yrs old now and was so populated this spring that I caught 2 swarms from it-put one is in a Lang and the other in a Nuc. I've only taken 1 box of honey from them in the 3 years. They've really done well. My husband has all Langs but he has enjoyed this Warre almost as much as I have. 
Thanks for your advice. 
Bonnie


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## bjverano (Jun 18, 2014)

Good idea. I need to check on this hive more often. I'll try that in the future. 
We had such a huge swarm season here that we left our existing hives alone- caught 13 swarms in about 4 weeks. Now that swarm season is calming down I can focus more on our old hives. We don't have to worry right now about cool weather- it's summer here-will be 100 degrees here today. 
Thanks for your advice. 
Bonnie


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## bjverano (Jun 18, 2014)

Oldtimer,
By the way I was in Auckland about 15 years ago. Beautiful country. Spent about 5 days in Auckland and a week on the South Island.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

When using Warre hives, its best not to put empty boxes on top. You can see why, so after you harvest that full box, put the additional box below. If you add another box always place it below. The bees will move down, when they need to store honey. This is what bees do in nature, Abbot Warre's hives use this natural behavior to give you full top boxes. 

Either way , take that empty away, it will only make a mess.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Being a Frame beekeeper 40 years prior to managing Warres, I agree with those who find that bees work up easier than down. I also prefer to harvest combs not thick and black with brood residue. I top super my Warres by using ladder combs. This allows the bees a route up to the topbars to start hanging combs down parallel to the ladder comb.


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## bjverano (Jun 18, 2014)

I top supered this hive last year exactly like I did this year and they did fine. They built down from the top bars. This will be the box I'll leave for them to winter on so in the end it gets crushed and strained.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

It can happen if the hive becomes so packed with bees that the cluster moves up and fills the top box. But most times there just isn't that many spare bees and they need a ladder, which is why it didn't work for you this time.

And is also why Abbe Warre recomended undersupering. Even though bees like to move up, foundationless warres have to be undersupered forcing the bees to move down because it's the only reliable way to get the top bars of the new box in contact with the bee cluster so the bees can start building from them.

Which brings up another interesting point, the argument that bees prefer to move down. Yes in a wild hive they at first move down because the combs get built hanging from the top, after that there is only one possible direction, down. But does that mean the bees prefer that? Not going by what we see bees do in a wild hive. They move down initially, and at other seasons they move up. In a wild hive over several seasons they move up, just as often as they move down. A wild hive swarms as often as it can and this will usually be at the time they are forced to move down.


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

odfrank said:


> I also prefer to harvest combs not thick and black with brood residue.


This argument adds to the cons of undersupering.


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## bjverano (Jun 18, 2014)

Yes they sure did swarm a lot this year. At least twice. I caught both swarms and have both in hives so it's a great hive. I did nadir at the same time I supered this spring. Not sure what's in the bottom yet. Will check this weekend have been gone for the past 2 weeks. I really like the info on the wild hives- that makes it much easier to understand. The genetics in this hive are who knows? However I do know they are from a 40 year old apiary that is local and have never been treated. My neighbor let me catch one of his hive swarms. So I'm really happy to have the other 2 additional hive. One hive is now 3! I love these bees - they are very nice to work as well. 
Thanks for all the responses!
Bonnie


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## BeekeepingIsGood (Aug 12, 2012)

> I also prefer to harvest combs not thick and black with brood residue.





asd said:


> This argument adds to the cons of undersupering.


There was some research conducted in Wales trying to find honey with antibacterial properties. It turns out the honey that was the most active all came from warré colonies. So there is now speculation as to how honey from former brood comb might contribute to these properties.

You may not like it, but honey from brood combs might be better for you.



> The bees like to build...


I don't think we should jump to conclusions about what the bees like. They may be more likely to build above, but that doesn't mean they prefer it. Another possible explanation is simply that space above the cluster decreases their ability to regulate temperature / humidity in the hive and it is therefore more stressful for them to leave empty space above.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

BeekeepingIsGood said:


> I don't think we should jump to conclusions about what the bees like.


LOL if I "jumped" to my conclusion it was a very slow jump, taken thus far about a 46 year jump involving observing bees by having my hands in a hive many hours most days, in season. Is that really "jumping to a conclusion?" Not sure.

However your explanation why bees move upwards if they can has merit and is likely a contributing factor, and there are other reasons. End of day we both agree and have observed they do tend to move up if given proper opportunity, for whatever reason. 

Of course what goes up must come down, in an unmanaged hive they do both and there are reasons for that. My own belief anyway is we do better to work with, and harness, the bees basic behaviours rather than against.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I think the simplest answer is that bees never really have an opportunity to build above the nest in nature....because they already would have started at the top of the cavity to begin with.


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## BeekeepingIsGood (Aug 12, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Of course what goes up must come down, in an unmanaged hive they do both and there are reasons for that. My own belief anyway is we do better to work with, and harness, the bees basic behaviours rather than against.


I'd rather not go against there behaviour either. When I add boxes above, I suspect I might be going against they way they normally expect to organize their nest.

The problem is if I didn't add boxes above it would be even more difficult to get a hive through some of our bigger flows without them starting swarm preparations. On the one hand, swarming is part of their basic behaviour, on the other hand we're getting to the point in my season where a split or a swarm is going to have a tricky time building up to be ready for winter.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

BeekeepingIsGood said:


> When I add boxes above, I suspect I might be going against they way they normally expect to organize their nest.


Why? If a wild hive did find space above, as they normally would after they have had to move down in late fall to find empty comb to cluster on under honey stored above, come spring they will move back up into that space, honey left there or not, before making any down move. This is approximated by putting a box of comb or comb foundation on a hive, it's just if a foundationless empty box is put on top they can have a problem.



BeekeepingIsGood said:


> The problem is if I didn't add boxes above it would be even more difficult to get a hive through some of our bigger flows without them starting swarm preparations.


Exactly right. A wild hives primary aim is to reproduce, and once they have expanded and filled the top of the hive this tells them they are as ready as they ever will be. So to me, giving them more room overhead and doing it in such a way they feel they need to get it organised before they swarm, is working with the way the bees see their situation and behave, in order to make them do what we want (not swarm in this case). By working with them I didn't really mean let them do as they please, I meant create circumstances so that what they will want to do is the same thing we want them to do. Because in the end they will only ever do what they want to do.


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