# Varroa persist despite using MAQs



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Leave them alone and check in the spring. any additional treatments this late will cause more losses. Mites in the tray may be a good thing. since you didn't do a post op check just wait and see


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## urbanoutlaw (Nov 19, 2012)

Good point. 

I guess I screwed up by missing the post-treatment count. Live and learn.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

A vaporization treatment of Oxalic Acid at any day 40 degrees or above, would greatly help.... See the many posts here on BS regarding usage.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Treating when there is brood in the hive is very ineffective...

Independent of WHAT the treatment is, here is jsut a rough idea of what goes on. Theses are round numbers and probably underestimate the mites reproduction and underestimate how many get groomed off by the bees.

Assuming treating every week and a treatment with 100% effectiveness on phoretic mites. If you assume that half the Varroa are in the cells and you have a total mite population of 32,000, and if we assume half the phoretic mites will go back in the cells and in one week, half of the mites in the cells will have one offspring each and emerge then the numbers look like this:
Week 1 Phoretic 16,000, In cells 16,000 Killed by treatment 16,000, Reproduced 8,000, Emerged 16,000 (half of the 16,000 plus the 8,000 offspring), went back into cells 4,000
Week 2 Phoretic 12,000, In cells 12,000 Killed by treatment 12,000, Reproduced 6,000, Emerged 12,000 went back into cells 3,000
Week 3 Phoretic 9,000, In cells 9,000, killed by treatment 9000, Reproduced 4,500, Emerged 9,000, Went back into cells 2,250
Week 4 Phoretic 6750, In cells 6,750, killed by treatment 6,750, Reproduced 3,375, Emerged 6,750 went back into cells 1,688

Now lets Assume treating every week and 50% effectiveness on phoretic mites. If you assume that half the Varroa are in the cells and you have a total mite population of 32,000, and if we assume half the phoretic mites will go back in the cells and in one week half of the mites in the cells will have one offspring each and emerge then the numbers look like this:
Week 1 Phoretic 16,000, In cells 16,000 Killed by treatment 8,000, Reproduced 8,000, Emerged 16,000, went back into cells 4,000
Week 2 Phoretic 20,000, In cells 12,000 Killed by treatment 10,000, Reproduced 6,000, Emerged 12,000 went back into cells 5,000
Week 3 Phoretic 17,000, In cells 8,500, killed by treatment 9000, Reproduced 5,500, Emerged 11,000, Went back into cells 4,250
Week 4 Phoretic 15,250, In cells 9,750, killed by treatment 7,625, Reproduced 4,875, Emerged 9,750 went back into cells 3,813

Now lets Assume treating once every week with 50% effectiveness with no brood in the hive
Week 1 Phoretic 32,000, In cells 0 Killed by treatment 16,000, Reproduced 0, Emerged 0, went back into cells 0
Week 2 Phoretic 16,000, In cells 0 Killed by treatment 8,000, Reproduced 0, Emerged 0 went back into cells 0
Week 3 Phoretic 8,000, In cells 0, killed by treatment 4,000, Reproduced 0, Emerged 0, Went back into cells 0
Week 4 Phoretic 4,000, In cells 0, killed by treatment 2,000, Reproduced 0, Emerged 0 went back into cells 0

Then of course there's 100% with no brood:
Week 1 Phoretic 32,000, In cells 0 Killed by treatment 32,000, Reproduced 0, Emerged 0, went back into cells 0
Week 2 Phoretic 0, In cells 0 Killed by treatment 0, Reproduced 0, Emerged 0 went back into cells 0


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## urbanoutlaw (Nov 19, 2012)

My husband seems to think I/we will kill the bees doing the vapor treatment. He is not going to read scientific papers, Randy Oliver, or the numerous BS threads. 

I guess the real questions are 1) What is the likelihood that a *novice*, using this method for the first time, will kill colonies? 2) How often do correctly applied commercial products fail to control mite infestation? 3) Are there any management implications if they made it to Spring with a significant mite load?

Sorry if these are dumb questions or I'm missing the obvious - just trying to make an informed decision.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

tell him to read up, consider the source (Randy is acurate) threads with no names and addresses very suspect.

It is possible to kill withOA, but you can with water also. Do it right.
I may be misreading, but I think Michael is suggesting you treat while there is no brood.

Personaly I would not risk the disruption in the hive this time of year. I would just ride out till spring and see what you got. At this point you do't even know if your other treatment worked.

Personly I have had nothing but success with MQS. As far as spring. I would leave them until about june 1 then do a requeen with a brood break. Normally a good queen in the spring will outbreed the mites.

I would be planning on a spring check, but other than that, watch it snow.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If you find the mite reproduction numbers in _Michael Bush_'s post #5 hard to follow, they are formatted into a more readable chart/table form at this page:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm


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## urbanoutlaw (Nov 19, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> Treating when there is brood in the hive is very ineffective...


Thanks all. I missed your replies in posing my questions. The bees have been doing A LOT of grooming...I'm not sure I even want to count the dead mites in my pictures. 

I thought the advantage of MAQs/Formic was that it is effective inside the cells. Either it's not or I'm missing something. :scratch: I intended to apply the MAQs while they were broodless (dearth), but missed by a few days.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

gmcharlie said:


> Personally I would not risk the disruption in the hive this time of year. I would just ride out till spring and see what you got. .


I disagree, there is no harm in doing an OA vaporization this time of year. In fact, it's probably the best with the hive basically broodless. You just need a 40+ degree day to treat. Two items will kill your bees over winter, lack of stores and mites (and all the issues they bring.) No disrespect, but I don't believe "riding it out" is the best option.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I have used Formic acid in the past but have never used MAQS. My understanding is it is an extended release Formic acid which will continue to kill mites for a roughly 3 week gestational period. Mr. Bush has provided calculations which quite correctly compute a variety of scenarios but dosent address a longer acting agent like MAQS. One of the downsides of a Formic treatment is it is highly temperature dependent. Too much heat and it is going to be hard on bees and queens, too little and it will be much less effective. Also remember you are, in effect, fumigating a hive and success will also be dependent on the size of the chamber and amount of ventilation.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

jim lyon said:


> I have used Formic acid in the past but have never used MAQS. My understanding is it is an extended release Formic acid which will continue to kill mites for a roughly 3 week gestational period. Mr. Bush has provided calculations which quite correctly compute a variety of scenarios but dosent address a longer acting agent like MAQS.


Maqs are not extended release, they say they only release formic for 3 days, can remove the pads after 7 days. the extended part is that they say they kill the male mites that are in the cells so that the females don't get mated. As to Mr Bushes calculation, the computations look ok, except from Randy Olivers site and other articles, the # of mites in the cells is around 85% not 50%.

the other problem with the chart if you are talking Maqs, is the mites don't reuturn to the cells for from 5-8 days. You also have to factor in that the formic has a tendency to kill all/much of the open brood and the queen has been known to shut down if you used two pads. So the way I had figured it, the mites are killed that are on the bees, the mites that are on the bees that hatch for 3 days, at that point there is not much brood for the mites that do hatch to return to until the queens starts laying.

I tried Maqs this past summer, did one pad, and 13 days later did the second pad(which was my best guess at to when the queen would have started laying and lava would be close to being capped), and the rest of the mites would have hatched from all the worker capped brood and most of the drone brood. counts went from very high to acceptable level.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I thought the advantage of MAQs/Formic was that it is effective inside the cells.

I don't believe anything is effective inside capped cells. There have been reports on occasion that this or that is, but I don't believe there is any evidence that it's true. If it was I'm quite sure it would kill all the brood, capped and uncapped.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Michael Bush said:


> >I thought the advantage of MAQs/Formic was that it is effective inside the cells.
> 
> I don't believe anything is effective inside capped cells. There have been reports on occasion that this or that is, but I don't believe there is any evidence that it's true. If it was I'm quite sure it would kill all the brood, capped and uncapped.


you would have to take that up with the people who sell the product, I'm just the messanger


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

wildbranch2007 said:


> the other problem with the chart if you are talking Maqs, is the mites don't reuturn to the cells for from 5-8 days. You also have to factor in that the formic has a tendency to kill all/much of the open brood and the queen has been known to shut down if you used two pads. So the way I had figured it, the mites are killed that are on the bees, the mites that are on the bees that hatch for 3 days, at that point there is not much brood for the mites that do hatch to return to until the queens starts laying.
> 
> I tried Maqs this past summer, did one pad, and 13 days later did the second pad(which was my best guess at to when the queen would have started laying and lava would be close to being capped), and the rest of the mites would have hatched from all the worker capped brood and most of the drone brood. counts went from very high to acceptable level.


now the question to ask, is it the Formic or the brood breaks that cause the mite counts to go down??


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

wildbranch2007 said:


> Maqs are not extended release, they say they only release formic for 3 days, can remove the pads after 7 days. the extended part is that they say they kill the male mites that are in the cells so that the females don't get mated. As to Mr Bushes calculation, the computations look ok, except from Randy Olivers site and other articles, the # of mites in the cells is around 85% not 50%.
> 
> the other problem with the chart if you are talking Maqs, is the mites don't reuturn to the cells for from 5-8 days. You also have to factor in that the formic has a tendency to kill all/much of the open brood and the queen has been known to shut down if you used two pads. So the way I had figured it, the mites are killed that are on the bees, the mites that are on the bees that hatch for 3 days, at that point there is not much brood for the mites that do hatch to return to until the queens starts laying.
> 
> I tried Maqs this past summer, did one pad, and 13 days later did the second pad(which was my best guess at to when the queen would have started laying and lava would be close to being capped), and the rest of the mites would have hatched from all the worker capped brood and most of the drone brood. counts went from very high to acceptable level.


I stand corrected. Looks like they are claiming 7 days. 
http://www.miteaway.com/
My confusion is that with their claim of single application effectiveness I assumed a long effective dosage and not the killing of mites in sealed brood.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

snl said:


> I disagree, there is no harm in doing an OA vaporization this time of year. In fact, it's probably the best with the hive basically broodless. You just need a 40+ degree day to treat. Two items will kill your bees over winter, lack of stores and mites (and all the issues they bring.) No disrespect, but I don't believe "riding it out" is the best option.



Non Taken.. thats the point of the forum!..... I have no experince with OA.. I try to be treatment free. I have used MAQS with capped brood very succesfuly. Your a bit farther south than VA. Us Yankees have to deal with winter a lot more. My concern and the reason I would not do anything, is that a good enough break in the weather is extremly unlikely. Disturbing that cluster in my opinion causes a bigger chance for a kill from weather, than the risk from mites. She stated that 2 hives had checked pretty good before hand, so thats a plus. Knowing that MAQS does a good job, also indicates to me a low risk on the other 2.

Disturbing the cluster on 4 hives seems a much bigger risk....If you got a good jan thaw,maybe, but at that time they would be getting pollen from Malpes and starting brood rearing.....
Just how I would go about it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Whether or not MAQS is _actually _effective at killing mites inside capped cells, I don't know. But certainly, the manufacturer seems to claim that MAQS does do exactly that. See this article linked from Nodglobal.com (MAQS manufacturer):

http://www.nodglobal.com/uploads/1/..._-_beeculture_apr_2013_david_vanderdussen.pdf
(see top of column 2, page 1)


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

not sure eaithre, but i can tell you dead larve with mites are expelled... as well as a few that seem without. You do get some brood kill..... don't know if its mite or treatment related.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

urbanoutlaw said:


> I guess the real questions are 1) What is the likelihood that a *novice*, using this method for the first time, will kill colonies? 2) How often do correctly applied commercial products fail to control mite infestation? 3) Are there any management implications if they made it to Spring with a significant mite load?
> 
> Sorry if these are dumb questions or I'm missing the obvious - just trying to make an informed decision.


My take:

1) The likelihood is low so long as you work carefully. The likelihood is high that the colony will die with no intervention at all so lack of effort will help assure failure.
2) Fairly often. Lots of people correctly apply commercial products when it is too late. 
3) Sure. You have a weak colony. Would you accept a mite loaded package from a supplier?


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