# How do you identify robbing?



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Robbing bees will fly fast from the hive. They gotta get home w/ their illgotten gains.
Robbers are shiny looking too, being wet w/ honey.

When you open a hive which is being robbed, the robber bees will fly up off of between the combs in a pissy attitude, some stinging and others flying away.

When you see bees frantically working at trying to get into hives, or a hive, from places other than the main entrance, chances are they are robber bees. Check what's going on inside. It may be too late to salvage the colony. The colony maybe too weak or queenless to be viable.

But, if it is still a good colony, duct tape all the cracks and reduce the entrance down to the space of a couple of bees, making entrance gaurding easier.

I hope that isn't too many answers.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesrobbing.htm

Sometimes people mistake an afternoon orientation flight with robbing. Every warm, sunny afternoon during brood rearing you'll see young bees orienting. They will hover and fly around the hive. This is easily mistaken for robbers who also hover around a hive. But with practice you'll learn what young bees look like doing this. Young bees are fuzzy. Young bees are calm compared to robbers. Look at the entrance. Robbers are in a frenzy. Local bees might have a traffic jam at the entrance but they will still be orderly. Wrestling at the entrance is pretty much a give away, but lack of fighting at the entrance does not prove they are not being robbed, it just proves they have overcome the guard bees. One SURE way to tell if they are being robbed is to wait for dark and close the entrance. Any bees in the morning who show up trying to get in are probably robbers. Especially if there are a lot of them.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

I usually watch for the fights...not only at the entrance, but any time I'm in the hives. If I see one pair of bees wrestling around in the hive while I work, I figure somebody "just got lost" ... but if that becomes 5-10-20 pairs, it's time to close it up before I end up _causing_ my bees to get robbed.


Hope that helps some,
Rob


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

Thanks for the answers.

It looks like these are just orientation flights, but It shouldn't be possible for me to have any young bee's yet so I'm still confused.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

All bees have to orient. If you just installed them they will have to orient. But once they have you probably won't have orientation flights again until the new bees start emerging.


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## stevedc (Feb 24, 2012)

I was reluctant to post this as i was so saddened by it. both my hives have fallen victim to robbing and it is my fault. Open feeding on top of the hive. Lesson learned.http://s1055.photobucket.com/albums/s510/stevedc1/?action=view&current=image7.jpg


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## leonphelps (Apr 16, 2012)

I really wish people didnt use photobucket. the photos are so small for the rest of us to see. picasa does it way better and will not delete photos when too many people look. sorry for ranting.


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## beepopnc (Jan 10, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Check what's going on inside. It may be too late to salvage the colony. The colony maybe too weak or queenless to be viable.
> 
> But, if it is still a good colony, duct tape all the cracks and reduce the entrance down to the space of a couple of bees, making entrance gaurding easier.
> 
> I hope that isn't too many answers.


I have two five-week-old TBH's. Both have 12+ combs and built up well and are still taking 3 pints of syrup per day. This morning when I went feed them, there were lots of bees in the air and I saw several wrestling matches and bees chasing other bees on the front of the hive. I have reduced the entrance to about 1 1/2" and used the smoker on the outside to try to disrupt the situation but the wrestling continued so I stuffed grass in the entrance and went to work (at home thankfully). Just before lunch I went out in the backyard to check and noticed the grass was gone and the wrestling continuing. I threw a wet towel over the entrance (a Michael Bush tactic). Now what?

HELP!!  I am a new beek and I don't know what to look for in the hive (as you suggested looking). How can I tell if it is still "viable"? I suspected that it was queenless during my inspection on Saturday because the only brood I saw was capped. I put a bar of open brood from the other hive in on Sunday (re Michael Bush's book). 

How long do I keep them penned in and what determines my next steps? 

Any help would be much appreciated! I don't want to lose this hive!

Thanks for your help!!!!


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## stevedc (Feb 24, 2012)

leonphelps said:


> I really wish people didnt use photobucket. the photos are so small for the rest of us to see. picasa does it way better and will not delete photos when too many people look. sorry for ranting.


Is anyone else having this problem? When I click on the site I get nice big photos.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

beepopnc said:


> I have two five-week-old TBH's. Both have 12+ combs and built up well <snip> there were lots of bees in the air and I saw several wrestling matches and bees chasing other bees on the front of the hive. <snip> I stuffed grass in the entrance and went to work (at home thankfully). Just before lunch I went out in the backyard to check and noticed the grass was gone and the wrestling continuing.


With 12 nicely drawn combs in each hive, there's a pretty good chance, IMHO, that your bees can defend themselves pretty well.

Your bees removed the grass probably because it was interfering with their ventilation.

If you want to know if your hive's still "viable," you can check on them in the evening, after the bees have stopped flying; that way you won't be making it harder for them to guard against the robbers in the process 

If you're wanting to do something proactive to help stop the robbing of your hives, since I see you like Michael Bush's information, here's a link I'm sure you'll enjoy: http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmisc.htm#robberscreen (clicking on the two small pics gives you nicer, blow-ups of them). Try making up one of those, then install it over your hive's entrance at night. Your bees will re-orient to be able to get in through it, robber bees won't have nearly as easy a time


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

Stevedc- I prefer the size of the photos I upload onto my own site, as I can leave them larger & "zoom in" to see details that can't be seen on the smaller images hosted by photobucket et. all ... but not everyone feels like paying $45/year to be able to upload pics whatever size _you_ feel is best?
Of course, beesource also lets you upload your photos directly into the post, but I hear some people are having trouble with that functionality


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## Honeypeach (Mar 15, 2012)

stevedc said:


> Re photobucket - Is anyone else having this problem? When I click on the site I get nice big photos.


I can't get into it at all from behind the firewall at work. Flickr is fine - is photobucket somehow more suspect?


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## TheRatLover (May 13, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Robbing bees will fly fast from the hive. They gotta get home w/ their illgotten gains.
> Robbers are shiny looking too, being wet w/ honey.
> 
> When you open a hive which is being robbed, the robber bees will fly up off of between the combs in a pissy attitude, some stinging and others flying away.
> ...



Thanks for the tip. I just realized that my weaker hive probably needs the smallest entrance reducer of just 2 bees width. I am using the 4 inch one. I have seen bees jet away, but when I have opened the hive, none have flown upwards away from the hive as you said. 

Can you ever abuse the entrance reducer? What I mean is, can you leave the space too small and cause the bees to be upset or hindered? I feel as though maybe I am being to loose, and opening the areas to wide too soon....which is worse?

Thx -Lori


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> All bees have to orient. If you just installed them they will have to orient. But once they have you probably won't have orientation flights again until the new bees start emerging.


Thats what I thought but this is day 18 and I know for a fact no eggs where laid until day 3 so I'm still a ways off from the first possible new bees.

This happened again yesterday BTW, this time with all four hives at the same time, it was pretty intense standing in the cloud but no one was acting aggressive towards me. I took a short video and will have it up later today. I'm too tired right now. I work for the fire/ambulance service and we had a bus wreck this morning with extrication and I'm wiped out after that.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

TheRatLover said:


> Can you ever abuse the entrance reducer? What I mean is, can you leave the space too small and cause the bees to be upset or hindered? I feel as though maybe I am being to loose, and opening the areas to wide too soon....which is worse?


As long as the bees can get in/out, and VENTILATE the hive, the reducer is causing no problems for them. Seeing as you're in 'Diego, I'd be somewhat worried with the heat, and maybe recommend switching to a "robber screen" type entrance reducer instead, if you can. That way your bees will have PLENTY of room to fan for ventilation, and the robbers will be held at bay @ the same time...really a great little invention


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## CaBees (Nov 9, 2011)

For me it was war going on at the landing board. Bees were fighting bees! What was worst is I followed the advise of an acquaintance and took frames of harvested honey and put them out for the bees to clean up. That called in the neighborhood bees and it was clear, even to a newbee like me what was going on. But they were definately roll and tumbling with each other at the entrance and when I closed it up to 2 bees wide my hive prevailed...


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## TheRatLover (May 13, 2012)

I heard that the varroa bottom board 'trap door' which is the plastic insert should be removed. Today it is already 88 degrees outside. My hives are shaded, but should I remove the 'trap door' for better ventilation?


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## CaBees (Nov 9, 2011)

Someone experienced should answer this but I am and thank you for reminding me. My bees were also bearding after going into the hive and I realize now it was because of the heat so I'm going to remove mine tonight...

I've never heard of it as a 'trap door' but rather as a monitor board...same thing?


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## TheRatLover (May 13, 2012)

Mann Lake called the bottom board a 'varroa trap with drawer.' Yet it's a screened bottom board. Odd name huh? 

-Lori


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## CaBees (Nov 9, 2011)

https://www.mannlakeltd.com/mm5/mer...annlake&sType=1&Search=Varroa+trap#!WW-670/0/

I just looked it up and that is now what I have. I have a plastic monitoring board. Someone who uses Mann lake equipment could advise you better then I!~ sorry...


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## TheRatLover (May 13, 2012)

Thanks for your reply. There is actually a post where this is discussed pretty thoroughly, but everyone was extreme about it. You had those from Midwest and back East saying that they kept it off throughout their cold snowy winters! This had me extremely confused.

Here I am worried that I am going to freeze my bees in our tepid cool nights!!! lol

Thanks again - Lori


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## CaBees (Nov 9, 2011)

I know, true, huh? I was concerned about moving a swarm into a new box after dark tonight and the guy laughed at me...he says they are already living outside (cause it is a swarm...duhhhh) so no, you won't hurt them to put them in a box, they will just recluster. Have you checked out some of the youtube videos of hives in the snow and what they do to insulate them? We are so spoiled here, you more then I since you are in San Diego!


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## TheRatLover (May 13, 2012)

Aren't you new to this? Yet you are going to move a swarm into a box/hive? Wow! You sure are going to learn quick what it takes to work with bees!!! Are you going to do this alone or have help?

I haven't paid that much attention to the bee videos regarding snow, but I bet it's a bit of work...just like all the preparation they have to do to prepare for a hurricane *g* All I seem to have to worry about is ants so far...


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

As far as the screened bottom boards:
#1 SBBs tend to raise the likelihood of bees absconding (when open), so be careful about opening your SBBs under new hives that aren't well established yet

#2 There are VERY mixed opinions out there about the benefits/drawbacks of screened bottom boards, especially when it comes to leaving them "open." My personal opinion (and I believe Michael Bush's as well, if I remember right) is that leaving the SBB open can actually be DETRIMENTAL to the bees ability to effectively cool the hive. This is because bees use evaporative cooling (like the old "swamp cooler" air conditioners), the effectivity of which relies HEAVILY on an ability to control airflow & having a wide-open bottom on the hive doesn't make that very feasible.

#3 My Opinion: If you have the entrance reduced down to where you're concerned about the bees' ability to "keep cool," and you can't/aren't willing to get a robber screen, you won't likely hurt your bees any by opening the drawer/board/trap door under your SBB an by anywhere from a "bee space" (3/8") to maybe 1"...just enough to give the bees somewhere to fan, but not enough that they can't still control the airflow through their hive.


Hope that at least helps a little 
Rob


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How long do I keep them penned in and what determines my next steps? 

You did the right thing stopping things immediately, but I would be immediately working on the next step. Keeping them confined is very stressful. The simplest quickest way to help is put some screen (window screen will do in a pinch but #8 would be best) over all of the entrance except the last 1/4". This makes an entrance that is one bee wide and confuses the robbers by letting them smell the hive all the way across. Then you could build a real robber screen with more of a convoluted path to the entrance. The point of either of these is that robbers go by smell and local bees go by a memorized path into their hive.


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## beepopnc (Jan 10, 2012)

robherc said:


> If you want to know if your hive's still "viable," you can check on them in the evening, after the bees have stopped flying; that way you won't be making it harder for them to guard against the robbers in the process
> 
> Robherc,
> 
> ...


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## beepopnc (Jan 10, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> >How long do I keep them penned in and what determines my next steps?
> 
> Then you could build a real robber screen with more of a convoluted path to the entrance. The point of either of these is that robbers go by smell and local bees go by a memorized path into their hive.


Thanks Michael! I built a robber screen that emulates the one on your website, but on a smaller scale. I will put it on before daybreak tomorrow.

I had been concerned because mine is a Kenyan TBH and only has about 7.5" of entrance to begin with and only about 6" of space to go above the entrance because of the way the legs are connected. This explanation really helps me "understand" how it works...and I think my version should work fine.

Your book was a Godsend this morning when I needed quick answers on how to stop the robbing! Thanks for all your knowledge and time you so generously share!


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

When looking to see if a hive is still "viable," all you really need to see is about 2 frames covered in adult bees, and some fresh eggs/young larvae. As long as a hive has that much, they have a good chance (my guess is, if they are still fighting at all, then they haven't been overcome by the robbers yet, so you have very little to worry about)


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