# Oxalic trickling



## mobees (Jul 26, 2004)

My buddy and I experimented on a few hives that had mites and were never treated. The last 53 deg day, they were out big time, so we gave it a shot. Noticed results after trickling 3.2% OA in syrup 1:1 per instructions on web.

Noticed after first day 24-36hr, hundreds dead, maybe more on tray covered. Other two same.
After a couple more days very few, dozen
or so. Also, a few more dead bees but all
seems well. 

Is this typical or is there generally a different result? Concentration should be spot on.

I am trying to move away from Apistan/CPhos,
will try check on using Formic in spring, if needed. Any suggestions out there??


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

-"Noticed after first day 24-36hr, hundreds dead, maybe more on tray covered. Other two same."

Dead mites or bees?


----------



## mobees (Jul 26, 2004)

Mites on the tray. I use the Beemax PS bottom
boards with tray insert. The dead bees will not make it to tray.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Ok, I wanted to be sure what you were saying.

From what I have read, not my own expirence as I have not tried it yet, is that the trickle meathod is approximately 90-95% effiecent as killing mites when there is no capped brood.

I plan on trying it next season. I also plan on trying OA in syrup solution as well.


----------



## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<I plan on trying it next season. I also plan on trying OA in syrup solution as well.>>

Just checking, isn't that what he used?


----------



## mobees (Jul 26, 2004)

It seems to work well. What I was questioning is the quick mite kill that I got. I have been looking at other results on web and generally it seems like they have a gradual kill. I know Mr Bush and 
others use the crack pipe method. I just wanted to compare. Also, I put some Fumagillin in solution. I am curious about
how OA kills, maybe there is an expert out there that might know.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I am sorry, now I wasn't clear.
Trickling is OA in syrup that is sprinkled on to the bees. They feed on the sprinkled syrup.
I am going to feed it to them in syrup in my jar feeders. 
It is to late for me to do the trickle, although temps this year have been fairly mild overall.
Late February, before the brood really gets started, I am going to feed OA/light syrup.
It may not be as effective, but should still give me some knockdown on any mites.


----------



## JWG (Jun 25, 2004)

The trickled OA syrup is not ingested. (So adding fumagillin or whatever would probably be a waste.) Why the sugar in the solution makes it more effective against the mites has not yet been determined, as far as I know.


----------



## mobees (Jul 26, 2004)

That is good to know. 
But, wetted bees would likely receive grooming from other bees with their proboscis. So, the OA in soln would likely transfered around. I guess what I am searching for is whether the mites die from the subliming OA vapor, topically(burning exoskeletons, or by injesting fluids from bees. I know bees are tireless cleaners, and I added 30-50ml of soln it had to have gone somewhere.


----------



## JWG (Jun 25, 2004)

http://www.beedata.com/files/drip-oxalic-bogdanov.PDF 
http://www.apis.admin.ch/en/krankheiten/docs/saeuren/acide_oxaliqueBeeWorld.pdf 

It's been suggested that the presence of the sugar may reduce evaporation of the OA. I hope we can find out more about this method.


----------



## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

American Bee Journal had an article that suggested the oxalic/sugar solution is ingested and acidifies the bees hemolymph, killing the mites.

Edited to add:
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000207.html 



[This message has been edited by dcross (edited January 01, 2005).]


----------



## mobees (Jul 26, 2004)

Good info!
Conflicting reports but good to know. 
I have lots of questions for the 
Apimondia crew in Dublin. Either way OA
works and finding the best technique is the next step.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I have read studies that claim both sides of this issue. That the mode of treatment is ingestion and that the mode of treatment is topical.
I did have a window the other day to try the trickle method and I treated all of my hives.
I did observe bees ingesting the OA/syrup solution.
Now, that does not mean by any measure that ingestion is the mode of treatment.


----------



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I did observe bees ingesting the OA/syrup solution.

You saw the usual "pumping action" associated
with feeding? Not just tasting? I ask because
there appears to be some "fog" on this issue of
bees consuming the OA.

> Now, that does not mean by any measure that 
> ingestion is the mode of treatment.

A very good point.







But when fed syurp,
the bees tend to not "bathe" in it, so can
we isolate "feeding" versus "trickling" by
not trickling in the hive at all, but
instead, simply mixing OA into the feed at
some concentration?

I'm not sure I'm 100% clear on any of the
methodologies people are using when they
say "trickling".


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I did observe the pumping action of the bees ingesting the OA/ syrup solution. 
I had mixed a 40g / liter OA and syrup solution.
I used a mason jar and with holes punched on the lid, sprinkled the solution onto the bees. Some of it fell on the top bars, and the bees ingested these droplets.


----------



## Stanghellini (Jan 16, 2005)

My NJ Deparment of Agriculture colleague and I duplicated some European work on the oxalic acid (OA) trickling technique, which was the article in ABJ June 2004. Just wanted to add more of what I've learned here:

Until recently, the mode of action for OA was largely unknown, so I suggested that it possibly is a protoplasmic poison, as this is how strong acids work in biological systems - they interfere with enzyme functions. However, I contacted via email one of the lead oxalic researchers, a nice guy named Nanetti in Italy, and he says they now have evidence that OA, even in a sugar solution, works more by physical contact than via my proposed ingestion route. This is good information to know. They found little OA in the bees' hemolymph. As to why the sugar in solution increases the efficacy, he didn't say beacuse I simply forgot to ask.

Many more reports have come out on OA trickling (a.k.a. dribbling). One of them describes damage to the bees' midgut cells, while another did not find any negative effects on the bees' digestive enzymes (GST). A websearch will yield all these articles for those interested. 

Basically, the actual effects of OA on bees and brood are still being investigated. However, there are some indications that OA trickling can possibly be used during periods with brood (vs. "only in broodless periods" as is generally accepted), such as in spring, without undo harm to bees. Obviously, more research is needed to verify that initial report.

Lastly, from a previous BeeSource OA discussion thread, I read the following concerning my ABJ article:

<<<The writer of the article is far behind the developed techniques of applying oxalic acid and I wonder why those old methods end up in a bee magazine. Maybe the writer found the article and translated from German into English? This is article is from 1994/95. http://www.beekeeping.com/artikel/oxalic.htm >>

My response:

Had the gentleman who made this statement actually read my article, he would have learned that:

1. I did not present the oxalic acid trickling method as a new technique. In fact, I cited the appropriate sources, including some review articles. However, if this guy wants to "give credit" to someone or someplace for initiating OA work on bees, then try China. They were working with OA vs. varroa back in the late 1970's or early 1980's.

Refinement of methods and verifcation trials in different climates are necessary to gauge the value of any varroa technique.

2. While OA trickling is "old", I clearly state in my article that if OA has any chance of being registered for use in the US, that we must run duplicate trials within our own borders. Otherwise, the various US pesticide regulatory agencies wont even look at proposed registrations.

I chose to run my trial with the trickle solution because I know registry of a pesticide that requires heating and the production of hazardous vapors would stand little chance of approval in the US. OA vaoprs can be very caustic on human mucus membranes, lung tissues, etc.

In short, my rebuttal to this gentleman is not meant to prod him or to spur a debate. Who has time for such things? I simply would like to state that people should be more cautious passing judgement on studies when they haven't read the reports themselves. 

Thanks.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Axtman may correct me if I'm wrong. The gentleman is Axtman and he is German. He has said before that to him trickling is the less effective way of administering the OA that they, in Germany, used before they started vaporizing and, to him, it's obsolete technology. From his point of view, they have already moved on.


----------



## Stanghellini (Jan 16, 2005)

Vaporizing does have advantages over trickling, I agree. Most important is that it has little or no apparent ill effects on the bees themselves, which cannot be said for trickling. I wanted to test a method that has a chance for registration in the US, and vaporization was the less likely choice between the two. Interestingly, Canada is pursuing OA registration, but since there is no chemical company to register it, the beekeepers have to foot the $260,000 registration bill themselves. Canadian trials were also a requirement for application, in addition to any efficacy and tox data coming from abroad. The same would hold true for the US - if OA ever gets this far here.

As far as effectiveness goes and ease of delivery, this is relative. A beekeeper with a large syringe and container of OA solution can easily keep pace with a beekeeper running a 4-headed vaporization unit off a large battery. It only takes seconds to lift the top cover or pry above the brood chamber and inject a dose of solution. In my opinion, vaporization's only real advantage over trickling is the conflicting data on the trickle's longterm effects on brood and adult bees. And this is a big advantage, I agree.


----------



## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

OA trickling is very effective but I would never use this method even if this would be twice as fast than evaporation of OA. 
First thing you need the right percentage of acid and sugar to kill less bees and most of the mites 2.1%OA, 3.5%OA or 4.2% OA and 30%, 60% or even 70% sugar. 

But with any solutions bees aging very fast and you can see it in spring. Some colonies trickled with OA in fall have in spring less the ½ amount of bees than colonies with OA evaporation. 
If you cant read German the numbers will tell you this. Go to Tabelle 7

http://www.apis.admin.ch/host/doc/pdfvarroa/York/OS0109Radetzki.pdf 

The colonies had 60% less brood in March after trickled OA in November compared to the vaporizer method.

Evaporation means in German  Verdampfen and trickled means Träufeln.

Test result from all 3 methods: 
Verdampfen = evaporation = very good --- Sprühen = spray = good --- Träufeln = trickle bad compatibility.
I wonder why scientists working with the worst thing even if they know there are better ways? For any questions you can contact Dr. Gerhard Liebig [email protected].

Any doubt because of the safety for the beekeeper during evaporation? Use an electric Vaporizer and stay away or use a mask. 
Even here tests are made in Europe and with all kind of evaporators there was not enough acid in the air to be a health problem for the beekeeper.

Some hairspray and hair cosmetics contain up to 5% OA and nobody is worried about it. Eat spinach or rhubarb and you have enough OA to treat a fife frame hive.


----------



## mobees (Jul 26, 2004)

I found when I trickled last fall/winter, the mite kill was good and seemed quick. I put some strips in one that was treated and it had little or few mites dropped. There was definitely a bee kill that follows over time.I was talking to a friend who said he had found that spraying a finer mist seemed to improve bee survival, instead of the dribbleing out of a syringe. I am a bit worried about breathing the vapors, OA is toxic in lungs. SBB are a must for monitoring, I upgraded every hive this year.


----------



## Stanghellini (Jan 16, 2005)

I'm not a physical chemist, so I don't know if this is accurate, but I was recently told that oxalic acid, when heated to the flash point, actually turns into formic acid as the vapor.

I just checked a MSDS sheet for oxalic acid dihydrate (which is what everyone is using, presumably), and the heat decomposition byproducts of oxalic acid are carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and formic acid.

Now that's interesting. Likely many of you knew this already, but new to me.

The links below have the toxicity (LD50) scores and the possible health hazards of ingestion, dust, vapors, etc. Doesn't sound so harmless. I'd stay away from the vapors. Oxalic acid crystals are also in the highest category of toxicity to eyes and skin, and have kidney-damaging potential.

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/o6044.htm

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/4070fact.pdf

From what I read from others, using the vaporizers properly won't pose a big hazard to the user. Emphasis is on properly. Axtmann's advice to use the electric vaporizers and stay clear of vapors sounds much more safe then the "crack-pipe" versions I see discussed on BeeSource. 

As for OA naturally present in our vegetables - yes it is and quite common. However, one can still become sick, get kidney stones, or even die from eating too much of these vegetables at a single sitting. For example, based on animal toxicity studies, if 100 of you (weighing each 145 pounds or 65.7 kg) ate 11 pounds of rhubarb, or 3.3 pounds of parsley, we can expect that 50% of you would die. Not that anyone would eat this much rhubarb or parsely at one sitting. The lethal dose for pure OA dihydrate is between 5-15 grams.

Having said all this, as a state employee, I cannot endorse the use of oxalic acid since it is not registered as a pesticide in this form (but is as a bacteriocide, etc., as a disinfectant). Got to cover my back.


----------



## Stanghellini (Jan 16, 2005)

By not registered, I mean in the U.S.


----------



## Bumble Bee (Feb 19, 2005)

Hello Axtmann,
I don´t believe that trickling colonies (once with 3,5% OA) will reduce the bees live up to 50%. I haven´t found enough information about the health condition of the trickled colonies in the report you have quoted: http://www.apis.admin.ch/host/doc/pdfvarroa/York/OS0109Radetzki.pdf
In this report only 8 colonies were trickled with OA but 52 colonies were vaporized with OA. I think that this report is inconsistent. At the same location, the vaporized colonies lost 2385, the trickled colonies lost only 1469 bees during the winter. My conclusion in this case is: trickling OA was more compatible than vaporizing.
At the location Nuertingen the vaporized colonies had the best ratio of bees and brood: 3:1. The trickled colonies had a ratio of 6:1. But at the location Ruit (about 10 kilometers away) the vaporized colonies had a very low ratio of 8:1.
It is not possible for me to make a significant conclusion with this data.
Perhaps you know more about the background of this report?

Bumble Bee


----------



## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

@ Bumble Bee

>>>I dont believe that trickling colonies (once with 3,5% OA) will reduce the bees live up to 50%.<<<

Reduce the bees live UP TO 50% means  between 0 and 50 and not 50 in general. 

Many factors coming together, the acid concentration, the amount of sugar, the temperatures of the solution when applied and the amount you trickle in each row, even the condition of the colony. It is a big different to trickle 5mg on 1000 bees in a row or the same amount on 3000 bees in a row.

The place where you have your colonies is also very important. On sunny spots bees can fly and clean their intestine during winter, others must sit inside with their acid load much longer. 

Believe it or not thats up to you. If you have good results with trickling OA than dont change.

Since I stopped trickling OA on my bees I have much stronger colonies in spring.


----------



## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

My goodness

The first time I talked to a German in English. I hope he know what Im talking about?


----------



## Bumble Bee (Feb 19, 2005)

@Axtmann,
thank you for your proper instructions! I think it is important to know the basics and the known exceptions of any varroa treatment. My first aim is to reduce technical investment in varroa treatment. But as you know, even a syring is not fail proof. Further I am working at the bees in public. And that´s the reason why I am using the almost foolproof trickling method. I dont want to contaminate my pupils with a fog of oxalic dust due faulty operation. My experience with OA trickling (3,5%) is very good! I have treated about 100 colonies over the last four years. I have never had disadvantages by treating a colonie with OA in fall. This year I will simplify the treatment of the splits. I want to replace the use of formic acid (automatic dispenser). I have already used OSINAL impregnated tissues with good results. I think you know the formula of OsinAL (Oxalic acid-in-Alcohol).
Kindly excuse my grauenhaftes English. I try to practice for further training.
Bumble Bee


----------



## HennieK (Jan 18, 2005)

I use also the trickling method. It take's 1-2 minutes time per hive.
solution 37 gram oxalic in 1 liter 1:1 water/sugar.

I counted (for the expiriment)from December 2 - December 15 the natural mite drop.
December 15 the treatment. Counted 14 hives daily until Januari 31.

If your intrested in the results numbers, and the grafics, visit my site.
http://home.hetnet.nl/~kroese/ sub page "Varoa bestrijding" (sorry Dutch language)
But the numbers and the graphics speak for themselves.

Hennie Kroese
Netherlands...........


----------



## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi HennieK

You have a great site. Those deep frames are very intriging. I think they would work, very well, in a a long top bar hive. Are they a European standard frame? If so, what are they called?

Regards
Dennis


----------



## HennieK (Jan 18, 2005)

Hi Dennis,
No, my frames are not standard. Only a few Dutch Beekeepers are using them. We call them double honey frames. They are 29 Cm (7 Cm higher then our standard frame). I find them ideal for wintering the bees. 
Regards,
Hennie.......


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

[ April 04, 2006, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: loggermike ]


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Axtmann, I am going to cite one of the sources you put out for OA treatments.

Bee tolerance of different winter Varroa treatments by Jean-Daniel Charriere, Anton Imdorf, Rolf Kuhn @ the Agroscope Liebefeld-Posieux, Swiss Bee Research Center

They did a 3 year study and their findings / data actually showed that in 2002 the OA Trickled hives built up faster and better than the OA Evaporation hives. But, all in all the data showed variations in which treatment built up better from year to year, suggesting that other factors were also at work.

This study did not show any difference in the longevity of the bees between treatment types. Nor did it show that trickling of OA solution causes mass die offs before spring.

In fact the hive strengths and brood numbers were fairly close across the board.

Their study and paper was written in 2004 and their conclusions were:
In terms of wintering and development in spring, no significant differences can be seen between the 3 different applications of oxalic acid and Perizin.

The type of winter treatment does not affect the development of the bee colony during the spring.

Trickling oxalic acid requires the least amount of time and is easiest to apply.

Untreated bee colonies tended to winter better, but not significantly so. The slight difference disappeared completely during spring. By untreated they mean with the winter treatment. All colonies were treated in late summer for mites, even the control colonies.

I have the study in pdf. I no longer have the link, but would be happy to Email, anyone who would like a copy of the paper. I actually have a few papers on OA treatments that I could Email.


----------



## HennieK (Jan 18, 2005)

Hi MountainCamp,
is this the document?

http://www.apimondiafoundation.org/foundation/files/164.pdf

Hennie.......


----------



## Bumble Bee (Feb 19, 2005)

@loggermike,
I must remark, that osinal is still under development and is getting better every year. Osinal is not my invention! OsInAl is the short cut for OxalSaure In Alcohol. Osinal is NOT suitabel to treat strongly infested colonies in summer. Osinal can be used in fall, even when the colonies are breeding. It is usefull to treat splits with osinal. The method of application is comparable to oxalic stripes. The bees must have contact with the tissue. You can leave the osinal tissue in the hive during the winter. Osinal is not immediatelly effective like OA trickling. The effect lasts over several month. 
Here is the formula for 40 tissues: 200g oxalic acid, 1 liter 70-90% alcohol, 50g citric acid. You can use thin tissue (cheap towels for cleaning) made of PE-fibres or other artifical material in size of 20x25cm. Dissolve the oxalic and the citric acid in the alcohol. Put the batch of towels in a plastic container and spill the solution over the towels. The alcohol is used to resolve the oxalic acid. The alcohol evaporates within 2-3 days and the OA is evenly spread in the towels. Pay close attention, alcohol kills the bees! Do not use the towels soacking wet! Citric acid (hygroscopic) is needed to get the towels wet in the hive. Osinal works much better, when the towel is wet. In the year 2003/2004 I monitored the effect of osinal on 27 colonies. I haven´t checked the efficency of osinal. But it is reported to kill 60-90% of the mites. Thats enough for me. If you want my monitoring-data in pdf (700kb+50kb), feel free and contact me.
Bumle Bee


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Hi MountainCamp,
is this the document?

http://www.apimondiafoundation.org/foundation/files/164.pdf

Hennie.......

No, it is a different study.

I found the link: www.apis.admin.ch/en/krankheiten/oxal.php

But, I have not been able to connect


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Here is the new link:
www.apis.admin.ch/en/krankheiten/docs/saeuren/osbienenvertraeglichkeit2003_e.pdf


----------



## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

HennieK/MountainCamp et all: I have been following the OA posts for a while and have looked back at all the old posts. My bees have been brooding up over a month, so the question is... using the trickling method, I know that you don't kill the mites in the brood, but can you have follow up treatments in 7-10 days without hurting the bees? The JB200 seems like the way to go for vaporizing even though I would have to rebuild a lot of bottom boards, but I would also like to know more about OSINAL. Any and all help would be appreciated Jim


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

With any of the OA treatments, if there is brood you have to follow-up. None of the OA treatments get the mites in capped cells.


----------



## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Yes, I know that however, you're suppose to be able to do the vaporizing every 7 days without hurting the bees. Most posts say you can only use the trickling method once and only during times when there is no brood. I couldn't open the website you posted and I'm wondering if you can use the trickling method when there is brood and use follow up treatments without harming the bees. thanks Jim


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Try the link from today posted above, it is the new link.

Here is another good link with information on OA: www.apis.admin.ch/en/krankheiten/oxal.php

If you were to do it in the late winter / early spring to knock down the mite load, then monitor your hives, it should carry you till your fall treatment. 

But, lets say you wanted to do (2) treatments in spring to really make sure you got almost all of the mites. What is the adverse effect? You may shorten the life of a worker who will be replaced with the build-up of spring brood production. You have accomplished the knock down of the mite load, and increased the health of the hive in general in the long run and extended the lives of the replacement workers.

I will let you know how it works, that is my spring plan. I am just waiting for a break in the weather to treat.


----------



## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

thanks MountainCamp. Lots of information, but you're right. It looks like the upside is better than the downside. I'll be watching for the report of your test. Thanks again, Jim


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Jim ,here is a spring treatment study in Denmark(forgive me if this has been posted already);
http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/spring_treatment_oxalic_acid.htm
It was a one time spring treatment and the results showed that once wasnt enough to keep the varroa from building up to the same levels as the control hives by Fall.Of interest was no contamination of honey or wax and no apparent harm to the bees.
---Mike


----------



## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<But, lets say you wanted to do 2 treatments in spring to really make sure you got almost all of the mites. What is the adverse effect? You may shorten the life of a worker who will be replaced with the build-up of spring brood production.>>

I agree, the workers are expendable. But what about the queen?


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I think any mite treatment will increase queen supercedure to some degree.The tradeoff is losing some queens, against a huge mite build up in summer before you can get the supers off.This is the real reason behind the big bee shortage this year.Dont for a minute believe Cal. is the only state experiencing this.Lots of out of state hives were crashing from mites WHEN they arrived here.A lot of people still believe one treatment a year is sufficient.That worked when the strips were killing 99% of varroa and re-infestation wasnt a big issue.Those days are over.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

>>I agree, the workers are expendable. But what about the queen?

Depending on which study you read, there is or there is not any effect on worker longevity from OA treatments, whether that be vaporization, spray, or trickle. The argument made against trickling is that the workers ingest the OA solution and that is the problem. 

In an established hive, the queen will be feed mostly from stores that her attendants access, not the trickled solution. 

However, since the average queen only lives a year or two and is either replaced by supersedure or by the beekeeper. Once again if her lifespan is shorten by a few months, if you are replacing queens on a regular basis, where is the problem. 

Moreover, lets take a step back for a moment and the look at the (3) treatments:
Vaporization: OA is vaporized (2g) and gets everywhere in the hive, including food stores and on the queen. The bees inhale the OA vapors, they groom, they feed, they chew and re-work wax, etc. All of these activities put OA into the bees system, many by ingestion.

Spraying: OA / sugar solution (30g/L) is sprayed on to the bees, frames, honey, pollen, and on the queen. The bees inhale the OA spray mist, they groom, they feed, they chew and re-work wax, etc. All of these activities put OA into the bees system, many by ingestion.

Trickling: OA / sugar solution (35g/L) is trickled on to the bees, frames, honey, pollen, and maybe on the queen. The bees may inhale the OA solution, they groom, they feed, they chew and re-work wax, etc. All of these activities put OA into the bees system, many by ingestion.

So, I would argue that all (3) methods put similar concentrations of OA into the hives environment, Vaporization 2 grams, Spraying 1.5 grams, and Trickling 1.75 grams per treatment.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Any thoughts?


----------



## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

LoggerMike, MountainCamp & all,
I got a new computer yesterday so I've been off line getting it set up. What I'm going to do is try the OSINAL on my 10 hives that have SBB. and I am going to order a JB200 tomorrow to use on the rest. 
MountainCamp, if you try the trickling method, we can compare notes in a couple of months. So far I have not been doing indepth mite counts. I do a sugar roll or two in each location and if I find I treat. I just try to get overall idea of how the hives are doing. I know mixing the SBB and the OSINAL is not going to give a real true picture of the OSINAL but we'll find out if the combination works. What do you think? Jim


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>Any thoughts?
Still thinking  
Though I would have guessed that vaporizing would have less ingestion,you could be right. I dont know if anyone has done a comparison analysis on the bees .Guess we will have to wait for the Europeans to do the study,since no one here seems to be doing any research with oxalic.


----------

