# Mixing small cell and large cell in a hive



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Is there any reason why one couldn't promote small cell comb in the brood bodies while using large cell foundation in the honey supers? Would this be sending mixed messages to the bees? Has anyone done this and lived to tell about it?

Is this any different from using 4.9 foundation in your brood bodies and letting your bees draw what they will through the use of foundationless frames or starter strips in your honey supers?

In other words, is there a "best of both worlds" scenario involving small cell beekeeping and the more traditional large cell approach?

George-


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is there any reason why one couldn't promote small cell comb in the brood bodies while using large cell foundation in the honey supers? Would this be sending mixed messages to the bees? Has anyone done this and lived to tell about it?

Seems to me if you want to use two different sizes and an excluder, why not put drone foundation in the supers so it will be easier to extract, take less wax and still be a size that bees would naturally build to store honey. But then I don't want an excluder and most small cell beekeepers I know are running without an excluder and are encouraging the queen to lay up as many boxes as possible rather than trying to keep her down low.

>Is this any different from using 4.9 foundation in your brood bodies and letting your bees draw what they will through the use of foundationless frames or starter strips in your honey supers?

But they will draw either smaller cells than 5.4mm (standard foundation) or they will draw larger drone cells. I don't see bees naturally building 5.4mm cells in any numbers at all.

>In other words, is there a "best of both worlds" scenario involving small cell beekeeping and the more traditional large cell approach?

What is it that is "best" about large cells in the honey supers? I fail to see the advantage unless it's simply to use combs you already have drawn. But if you are using an excluder anyway, then I see no big disadvantage to having already drawn comb that happens to be large cell in the supers. The bees will simply fill it.

I can't say what the effect of them drawing different sized cells in the supers has on their willingness to draw small cell in the brood nest. But some think it has an effect.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>What is it that is "best" about large cells in the honey supers? I fail to see the advantage unless it's simply to use combs you already have drawn. But if you are using an excluder anyway, then I see no big disadvantage to having already drawn comb that happens to be large cell in the supers. The bees will simply fill it.

I guess what is "best" is just using my investment in conventional foundation, much of it already installed and wired into frames and ready to go. I suppose, since I'm only planning (at this time) to put 2 hives into small cell production and I don't really have enough supers anyways, it's not that big a deal









I guess, from the perspective of a total newbie to beekeeping who has been desperately trying to get a handle on the conventional "this is how it's done" approach, blasting off into small cell beekeeping feels a bit like taking a long walk off a short pier with no idea how far down the water is, or if it's cold, or warm... I only hived my first 3 NUCs a week ago, one of them, suffering from low numbers and chalkbrood, is back in a 4-frame NUC to be (hopefully) nursed back to health. It's ALREADY a HUGE adventure, but then again, I never did anything in my life half-heartedly, it's always been whole-hog including the postage.

FWIW, I just ordered 50 sheets of small cell foundation from Dadant- that ought to be enough to get in trouble









Onward and Upward. Now, if the weather would just do something besides RAIN. I'm worried the Basswood bloom is going to have come and gone before my bees even know what happened :-/

Thanks (again) Michael.

George-
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Never let fear or common sense stop you from doing something, at least once...


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi George,

I had done it. I've run 6 small cell size frames in each brood box without any apparent problems. My measurements of natural comb indicate that 40% should work. That's what any kind of honeybee will build when left to itself. But I haven't tried it.

Outside the broodnest any size cell will work. The bees naturally build much larger sized cells there.

I've found, that other than mite resistance, most of the qualities attributed to cell size are actually the result of a pesticide free broodnest. Just make sure that the larger cell sized combs you use are clean.

You can check out my small cell observations in more detail at:
http://bwrangler.litarium.com/small-cell/

Regards
Dennis


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

I use large cell foundation in my supers. The queen may lay in the large cell during the early half of the season, but this is no big deal. From July on is when you really need the queen laying in the smallest cells for effective varroa suppression.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

so, will using small cells in honey supers work well with extraction? I'm not as concerend about the extra wax as I am about the honey actually comming out of the cells.
I'm looking to expand my apiary but I'm wanting to go with a standard hive box. My plan is to just use Illinois supers for everything but if I go with the small cells I want to use them with everything so things will be interchangeable.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

OK I answered my own question, just use small cell in the brood chamber becuase they draw the regular cell quicker? Is that correct? 
At any rate I think maybe I'll just introduce small cell in all my splits next year. Take a super off a colony and let them build a deep small cell hive body above it. Then regular supers above that. Does that scenario sound like a good way to go?


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Small cell (or natural cell) in the honey supers won't affect the honey extraction at all from everything I've heard so far. Then again, left to their own devices, the bees often build larger cells for honey storage anyway.

Having small cell in the brood chamber is certainly the most important. I'll be experimenting with this using some of my hives- using small cell in the brood bodies and either natural cell (starter strips or foundationless) or large cell (foundation) in the honey supers.

George-


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

George, I think that is the standard...4.9 foundation in the broodnest with 5.4 in the supers. That's what I've always done and haven't heard anyone do differently honestly. But, I'm sure someone will prove me wrong









at any rate, my bees have -0- problems drawing out the 5.4 in the honey supers while maintaining 4.9 in the broodnest.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I honestly haven't done it, but I HAVE done drone comb in the supers (6.6mm), and I've done 7/11 (5.6mm) in the supers. I have not done 5.4mm in the supers with small cell bees.

Apparently, judging by the responses here, those who HAVE used 5.4mm in the supers with small cell hives had no problems.  Since I use no excluder, I'm concerned about the queen getting in and laying in it and I end up with large bees again.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I consider myself pretty well educated in bee craft but since joining this forum I've learned much from some pretty foward thinking beekeepers here, thanks! I'm giving serious consideration to changing to small cell. My attempts with natural comb convince me I need foundation as we move our bees 1500 mile a year. Of course last year I trashed 1200 old combs(1/2 brood,1/2 honey) and replaced it with standard plasticell. I do use queen excluders. It seems like a huge undertaking for my operation (150 hives) but possibly worth it in the long run. Do I have to regress through 2 sizes of foundation to do this or could I start my nucs next spring on 4.9 and then move the large cell to the outside keeping the smaller cells in the brood frame. Would I be better to start adding it this year as I continue to cull combs? Should I be investing some serious time reading and learning about this or is it relatively simple? What is the concept behind the mite control of this method? Does the fact the bees are smaller reduce honey production?Thanks!


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## Phoenix (May 26, 2004)

> Do I have to regress through 2 sizes of foundation to do this?


The bees will generally draw out 4.9 foundation closer to 5.1 on the first stage of regression, these combs can be moved toward the outside of the brood nest while feeding more 4.9 foundation into the center. The bees reared on the 5.1 will be able to draw 4.7 to 4.9, naturally you will get a two stage regression but with the same size foundation.



> Would I be better to start adding it this year as I continue to cull combs?


The sooner you start the race, the sooner you will reach the finish line. 



> Should I be investing some serious time reading and learning about this or is it relatively simple? What is the concept behind the mite control of this method?


It is fairly simple. Making a long story short, the smaller cells create a shorter cycle of morphology for the bees. Shorter pre-capping, post-capping and emergence, all of which interrupt the mite reproduction cycle, keeping the mite levels at a much more manageable level without all the chemicals and labor involved.



> Does the fact the bees are smaller reduce honey production?


No, smaller cells allow for more cells per frame, in turn allowing for more brood to be raised. I have counted the cells on standard foundation as well as Small Cell Foundation, and don't recall the exact numbers at this time, but I estimated that I can get approxomately 15,000 more bees per deep brood chamber, meaning that the work force of the colony has greatly increased for the same amount of space. I also believe that smaller bees are more fuel efficient, comparing to the car economy, and therefore can bring in more nectar on better gas mileage.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>My attempts with natural comb convince me I need foundation as we move our bees 1500 mile a year. 

That would create new issues since new wax and new comb usually isn't connected to the sides yet. But Langstroth's system was to put a suppor in the center vertically. His was a square with the points to the sides (like a diamond) but a round dowel works pretty well. That might give you sufficient support. But I can see why you might not want to do foundationless.

>It seems like a huge undertaking for my operation (150 hives) but possibly worth it in the long run. Do I have to regress through 2 sizes of foundation to do this or could I start my nucs next spring on 4.9 and then move the large cell to the outside keeping the smaller cells in the brood frame.

I'm not sure what you mean by "regress through 2 sizes of foundation". I'd only use the 4.9mm foundation. They will possibly build it through two sized though. I usually see a lot of 5.15mm the first time around and some of that mixed in with down to as low as 4.6mm the second time around. The center of the brood nest is the important place to have the small cell.

>Would I be better to start adding it this year as I continue to cull combs?

The sooner the better. If you're culling combs it's the perfect time.

>Should I be investing some serious time reading and learning about this or is it relatively simple?

It's relatively simple.

>What is the concept behind the mite control of this method?

18 to 19 days from egg to emergence for small cell vs 21 days for large cell. Look at the Varroa life cycle and the significance is obvious. Most small cell beekepers, including myself, have also noted more hygenic behavior after regressing. More grooming and more chewing out of purple eyed infested pupae.

>Does the fact the bees are smaller reduce honey production?

I have seen no significant difference. I have seen references to studies that said smaller bees make more honey and many small cell beekeepers have said that also. I don't think the difference is significant.


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## YellowBee (Jan 22, 2008)

*Small cell issues*

I have often wondered why the big deal on the cell size because as the cells get old in the brood nest the size of the cell decreases. I can remember when they first started making the cells larger and most of that was in thinking that the capacity of the bee to carry more nectar due to a larger bee. I don't know that that is really true but I do know that with age the size of the cell becomes smaller in the brood nest from the casting of the pupal skin to the cell wall after multiple rearings of bees in a colony.


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## baithe (Jan 23, 2008)

*Small cell brood/foundationless super*

Hello everyone. I am a complete novice, awaiting my first packages this spring and I have a bazillion questions. I'm committed to organic methodology and want to start out that way but the beekeeping class I'm taking is basically an education in commercial approaches which mandate medicating, feeding syrup, etc etc. 

Knowing what we know about the effects of stress on human health, it logically follows that stress placed on the bee is also going to cause health problems for it. So, natural (small) cell size seems like an obvious choice to me, not only because of its apparent varroa-control benefits, but also because that's what the bees seem to want in the first place. In an attempt to provide as natural an environment for them as possible, would it work to have small cell in the brood box and foundationless in the supers? If I use foundationless frames in the supers do I have to have a starter strip at the top or will they just go for it? And what would happen if I used foundationless frames in the brood boxes as well? 

I'm just a hobbyist at this point, and my goal and interest is more in supporting the bees than in anything else. If I get a bit of honey out of it, that's great, but if not, that's okay too if the bees are doing well. 

I'd appreciate any of your thoughts.

Baithe


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>would it work to have small cell in the brood box and foundationless in the supers?

Sure. You could use foundationless everywhere if you like.

> If I use foundationless frames in the supers do I have to have a starter strip at the top or will they just go for it?

You have to have SOME kind of comb guide. The time proven method is a beveled top bar:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#historicreferences

But other methods are starter strips, (plain if you want to make your own sheets or any kind of comb if you don't) or wooden starter strips (popscicle sticks or cut a strip off the edge of a one by).

> And what would happen if I used foundationless frames in the brood boxes as well?

You'll get natural comb in the brood boxes as well.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

>I'm just a hobbyist at this point, and my goal and interest is more in supporting the bees than in anything else. If I get a bit of honey out of it, that's great, but if not, that's okay too if the bees are doing well.

In my experience, you'll get as much honey with foundationless.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm#expenseofwax
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#foundation


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