# Small winter cluster



## andrewj54 (Nov 7, 2018)

Hello I had a question about how I should prepare to overwinter my small hive and what are the odds of them making it through winter. Due to poor mite management throughout the summer months the hive was left in a very weak state leaving a handful of bees and almost no brood, after mite treatment and careful watch their numbers have began to rebound but now it is winter time and I'm concerned about them surviving the winter months. Below attached are a few pictures of the current state of the hive, I was starting to see signs of wax moth or small hive beetle damage on the frames that weren't being defended by bees so I decided to remove and freeze them. So my real question is what can I do to best prepare and help these bees survive the winter? They are currently in a 10 frame deep box with only 6 frames inside, 2 brood 3 honey/polled and one drawn out empty frame. I am from California and temperatures should stay in the low 40's during the night and mid to high 50's during the day time. Any advice would be must appreciated, if any additional information is needed I shall provide it.


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## ffrtsaxk (Jul 17, 2017)

Is this your only hive? If you have another one, use a double screen board and put them over a strong hive. If not and you really want to save them, I'd put them in an observation hive inside or put them in a nuc box and put the nuc box inside and run an exit through a window. But, I'm in Missouri and it gets a lot colder here. There may be other options in warm and sunny California.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Well they’re brooding up and that’s a good sign. Make sure you’ve good plenty of feed on em, syrup or bricks if your in an area where it’s going to get chilly at night.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Add a follower board for your comfort and add frames as they expand. They are working the foundation from the looks. Some capped brood in black plastic frame. If there is a frame of capped they will expand rapidly. Eggs and open brood too?
Looks like a decent nuc to me as is. It would do fine in my March, so in December Cal? If fed syrup they would be taking off, though that might be poor timing.

Time for local feedback.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Put them in a nuc. I made the mistake of trying to overwinter a weak hive in a ten-frame. Even with loads of honey it was hard on them. Too much space for them to maintain, I believe. 
Insulate the top of the nuc. Give them sugar.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I agree with AR1
Put them in a nuc with feeder shim under the lid, and damp sugar the consistency of wet snow on the top bars of the frames.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Nuc hive is not necessarily available.
Exact same affect is achieved by using follower board(s) inserted into the 10-framer (actually - a much better effect).
The follower boards are trivial to make from any scraps (1 minute job from a cardboard box - my favorite).


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

OK my questions;
They look like they are working off stores, not seeing any wet cells. (that may be just photos) When would you feed from beginnings of natural flow?

Looking again, I would put the empty drawn frame inside and the frame being drawn outside until there is a flow. Looking for votes.

Follower or nuc; use what you got, nuc if on hand


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I'd consider a nuc nothing but extra hassle.
Before you know it - they will outgrow the nuc again - more busy work.
The "leaky" follower boards are hard to outgrow - you can sleep well.
Meanwhile - if create air pockets on both sides - you get a free bonus - extra insulation.

Moving a follower/adding a frame when need to expand just a little - 1 min job/no stress.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Meanwhile - if create air pockets on both sides - you get a free bonus - extra insulation.

As long as you do not create two unguarded houses. Question of strength.


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## andrewj54 (Nov 7, 2018)

Hello, thank you for the responses! Yes this is my only hive so combining them isn't an option. Yes they have about two frames of solid brood and enough bees to cover this brood but what I am worried about is the fact that even once all these bees hatch out the cluster still wont make it and the queen will cease laying soon seeing as the temperatures are rapidly dropping and its due to rain for a while. There is larvae in all stages of development ranging from eggs to larvae to capped brood, the two frames on the outside both have capped honey and then one of the frames closer to the brood has so wet honey. From reading it looks as if my options are condense to a nuc or install follower boards, also if I am reading this right it appears that the follower boards are put in place to insulate the hives in between the follower boards, is this correct? Also they are not taking syrup water anymore I assume due to the temp drop, so should I place a candy board on top of the hive? GregV do you have any recommendations on how to make and place follower boards ion my hive as it currently stands?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Saltybee said:


> Meanwhile - if create air pockets on both sides - you get a free bonus - extra insulation.
> 
> As long as you do not create two unguarded houses. Question of strength.


This is a standard technique very commonly used.
I use it routinely.
This is not a question of strength at all.
You can compress them down to one-two frames if what it takes so to keep the bee density (move the store frames outsides of the followers IF bees do not cover them).

Sort of like this:








PS: speaking of question of strength - reduce the entrance appropriately and allign the entrance with the frames properly to be guarded - nothing new there; all basic stuff.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Greg you are a masterful keeper as you have never had ants, big black spiders or beetles take up residence behind a follower.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Saltybee said:


> Greg you are a masterful keeper as you have never had ants, big black spiders or beetles take up residence behind a follower.


I never care about ants, spiders, and beetles.
Seriously.
Most of this stuff is overrated.
Never understood the issue.

If concerned - keep those air pockets *empty *then and have *no bug food in* them - no bugs.
No food; no shelter - no bugs.
Simple.

Ants routinely live in some of my nucs and hives (cause they love the burlap inner-covers).
I shake them out, brush them out of they way, and do my work.
They return back.
And?
Nothing.

In fact, I welcome the ants to live over the top bars.
Those buggers get into little holes where the bees can not - guess what - what is good for ants, that is bad for moths and beetles.
Outside of getting in my way, I don't care for the ants.

Too many artificial issues over nothing, IMO.


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## andrewj54 (Nov 7, 2018)

Alright sounds as if I am going make follower boards then! The only question that I have is, do I sandwich my remaining frames between the boards or is it just the frames containing brood? Thank you all for all of your help!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

andrewj54 said:


> what I am worried about is the fact that even once all these bees hatch out the cluster still wont make it and the queen will cease laying soon seeing as the temperatures are rapidly dropping and its due to rain for a while.


Thing with a hive like this is they know they are small, and they know they could do with more bees. In your temperatures, they will brood all winter, provided they do not have to do it on stores alone. They will think they have to preserve their stores, so will make less brood than they would if they were being fed. However they cannot be fed much because they are already pretty choca and making them store feed where they cannot properly cover it with bees is not a good plan. To keep them brooding, just give them very small amounts, fairly regularly, just what you gauge they can use. You say they are not taking syrup atm, can you post a pic of your feeder in use? It may be necessary to switch to a different method in colder weather.

The other biggy that has not yet been mentioned is mites, a hive such as this, to come through in good shape, must have near zero mites. Even a small number of mites can really mess up the chances of a hive like this.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

The advice you are getting is more of a nuance and preference than different. As much as from looking at photos not the hive. You say there are wet stores in the hive, then they have been taking stores. They do not have to take syrup every day to keep going,
If they are actively drawing comb on your foundation I would put the empty drawn comb inside the follower. If they are not I would wait. Just reading the strength of the hive from Maine.

If Ray says damp sugar, and you say it is going to be rainy, I would listen to Ray. His boots are a lot closer than mine. He knows your bee weather.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

andrewj54 said:


> Alright sounds as if I am going make follower boards then! The only question that I have is, do I sandwich my remaining frames between the boards or is it just the frames containing brood? Thank you all for all of your help!


You want sandwich ONLY the boards covered with bees (must have good density - that is the real decision factor - the density).
For sure - brood frames.
Optionally, storage frames. 
Maybe one or two - as long as you don't stretch them to thin and screw up the density.

Once the density is good (no empty sims) - the next decision to make for you - how will they eat?


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## andrewj54 (Nov 7, 2018)

Oldtimer said:


> Thing with a hive like this is they know they are small, and they know they could do with more bees. In your temperatures, they will brood all winter, provided they do not have to do it on stores alone. They will think they have to preserve their stores, so will make less brood than they would if they were being fed. However they cannot be fed much because they are already pretty choca and making them store feed where they cannot properly cover it with bees is not a good plan. To keep them brooding, just give them very small amounts, fairly regularly, just what you gauge they can use. You say they are not taking syrup atm, can you post a pic of your feeder in use? It may be necessary to switch to a different method in colder weather.
> 
> The other biggy that has not yet been mentioned is mites, a hive such as this, to come through in good shape, must have near zero mites. Even a small number of mites can really mess up the chances of a hive like this.


I have done a sugar test after my last OAV treatment a 2-3 weeks ago and saw no mites, I didn't feel as if using an alcohol test with the hive in the shape it is in was the best option. I was using an external feeder with a jar in it to feed however I do still ahev an internal feeder that could be cleaned up and put to use if that would be better? If not what would you suggest?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Sugar is a desiccant, meaning it will absorb moisture from the air. So putting it on top bars will have it absorb any heavy moisture that might be in the air inside the hive. As the sugar gets wet from absorbing moisture, the bees suck it out as syrup. So, putting wet snow ball consistency sugar on the top bars actually feeds the bees syrup. Bees don't eat solids, they crush up solids with their mandibles, and suck food as liquid down through their hollow straw like tongue.

Using follower board is fine in my opinion, it will only take one to work. I would put a frame of honey against the most warm side of the hive ( a side facing either south or west) then the brood frames, then any other stores frames, then the empty drawn frame or a foundation frame, then the follower board. If the bees are not populous enough to cover 4 frames, then I would not put a foundation frame in yet, it can be moved in later as the bees grow.

For added insulation, I could put a block of styrofoam or insul board in the space outside the follower board.

Using a follower board instead of a nuc box will cause a bit of issue using the top sugar, or mountain camp method as it's known by in this forum, because it'll require a feeding shim under the top lid to give room for the sugar. That means the follower board won't reach up to the top of the space under the lid, but it won't cause much problem other than lack of sealed air flow. I think the bees like to feel crowded and cozy, but they do fine besides what I do with them most times.

I still say a five frame nuc box would be better. Besides, every bee yard should have a complete nuc box setup in the beeyard for any situation that might arise that might make it come in handy. A place to put frames as you are inspecting a hive, a box to make a split with, a box to hold the queen on a frame as you are inspecting and etcetera. Perhaps you'll decide to get one for your yard soon.

I have found that using the sugar snow on top bars, the bees cluster up under the sugar, and keep the sugar dried out from sucking out all the syrup that it creates. I've even seen them store excess syrup from the sugar, excess in that they don't need it at that moment for feeding.

Good luck, it's sounding to me like they'll most likely make it fine and in good shape whatever path you take to secure them.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

andrewj54 said:


> I have done a sugar test after my last OAV treatment a 2-3 weeks ago and saw no mites, I didn't feel as if using an alcohol test with the hive in the shape it is in was the best option. I was using an external feeder with a jar in it to feed however I do still ahev an internal feeder that could be cleaned up and put to use if that would be better? If not what would you suggest?


Yes good thoughts Andrew, I wouldn't waste any of them on an alcohol wash either.

Re the sugar feeding, such a small hive won't take sugar from an external feeder right now it's all just to cold for them to do that. It may also be too cold for them to venture into an internal feeder, probably best not to do that. The other ways people have suggested have merit, my own prefence is a jar with some holes punched in the lid placed upside down over the top bars, and the reason I like that is because regardless how cold it is, if the bee cluster is in contact with the jar, they will take the syrup. For a small hive like yours, to keep them warm I would recomend putting an inner cover over the top bars with a hole in the centre which the jar can sit on, and an empty super over that and then the lid. Just ensure the bee cluster is where the jar is so they can take feed without breaking cluster. Such a setup will easily keep your hive alive and prospering all winter. It does not have to be a proper inner cover, any piece of board cut to size will do.

Having said all that i am not against any of the other methods people have suggested, in beekeeping there are often several different ways to skin a cat.


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## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

andrewj54 said:


> Hello I had a question about how I should prepare to overwinter my small hive and what are the odds of them making it through winter. Due to poor mite management throughout the summer months the hive was left in a very weak state leaving a handful of bees and almost no brood, after mite treatment and careful watch their numbers have began to rebound but now it is winter time and I'm concerned about them surviving the winter months. Below attached are a few pictures of the current state of the hive, I was starting to see signs of wax moth or small hive beetle damage on the frames that weren't being defended by bees so I decided to remove and freeze them. So my real question is what can I do to best prepare and help these bees survive the winter? They are currently in a 10 frame deep box with only 6 frames inside, 2 brood 3 honey/polled and one drawn out empty frame. I am from California and temperatures should stay in the low 40's during the night and mid to high 50's during the day time. Any advice would be must appreciated, if any additional information is needed I shall provide it.
> View attachment 52669
> View attachment 52671
> View attachment 52673
> ...


In my opinion, with those daily temperatures during the winter, I would not worry about the small cluster. If they are brooding up, it is because the climate is favorable for that. Not too cold!! Just keep them in a sunny spot, put 3 or 4 layers of Newspaper on top of the bars, give them some granulated sugar, put an empty super or brood box on top, then a homasote board as the inner cover, and finally the telescopic cover. The newspaper, sugar and homasote board will absorb moisture.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Saltybee said:


> OK my questions;
> They look like they are working off stores, not seeing any wet cells. (that may be just photos) When would you feed from beginnings of natural flow?
> 
> Looking again, I would put the empty drawn frame inside and the frame being drawn outside until there is a flow. Looking for votes.
> ...


Saltybee, if you are suggesting placing an empty comb in the middle of the cluster, I whole heartily disagree, I am a believer of brood nest integrity, and in the fall this forced split of the nest is likely a death sentence.

Andrew, IF you happen to have a couple frames of honey, I would center the cluster, in the box they are in, flank it on each side with a frame of stores, if room remains, fill it with follower board and foam or a old pillow case stuffed with straw or dry grass, or shredded paper, etc I.E. insulation. Perhaps a shim and sugar block on top., with well insulated lid. In CA. check it every month, add space if needed, by adding another frame of comb to the outside and shrinking the insulation. Also add more sugar if they consume it. If they do not have much stored pollen consider a pollen patty of some sort. good luck
GG


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Gray Goose said:


> Saltybee, if you are suggesting placing an empty comb in the middle of the cluster, I whole heartily disagree, I am a believer of brood nest integrity, and in the fall this forced split of the nest is likely a death sentence. GG


whole heartily not suggesting that


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Saltybee said:


> whole heartily not suggesting that


"I would put the empty drawn frame inside and the frame being drawn outside until there is a flow"

Sorry I read the line several times and could not quite be 100% on your meaning and how it may be interpreted.
I was only seeking to clarify, Thanks for the clearing it up comment, we are on the same page then 
GG


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

No offense taken. If I was not clear then you should clarify and I should appreciate your efforts to clarify.


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## andrewj54 (Nov 7, 2018)

Well I thank everyone for their input, however it doesn’t look as if the hive is going to make it through the winter. When I opened the hive up to install the follower boards I noticed a discoloration on some frames of honey and also what I’m guessing is mold along the bottom of the box. But as if to add insult to injury also I rolled the queen, effectively killing her. I surprisingly was still able to order a queen and will have her delivered tomorrow but it’s not looking good as of now. Thank you all for your insight and advice, better luck next year hopefully! Also attached a picture of what most frames look like.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

andrewj54 said:


> Well I thank everyone for their input, however it doesn’t look as if the hive is going to make it through the winter. When I opened the hive up to install the follower boards I noticed a discoloration on some frames of honey and also what I’m guessing is mold along the bottom of the box. But as if to add insult to injury also I rolled the queen, effectively killing her. I surprisingly was still able to order a queen and will have her delivered tomorrow but it’s not looking good as of now. Thank you all for your insight and advice, better luck next year hopefully! Also attached a picture of what most frames look like.


That "discoloration of honey" and " mold along the bottom of the box" are a non-issue.
Normal.
None of these will damage your bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Agreed. The comb is normal colour.

And since you got the queen coming you may as well continue to give this your best shot, because if nothing else, the longer you can keep this hive alive, the more you will learn.

And my personal opinion is there is a very good chance you will get it through to next season.

About the new queen, it is surprising how fast bees can make a new one once their original queen is killed, they can have a new one out in as little as 10 days, once that happens they will not accept the queen you give them. So you must thoroughly check the hive for queen cells and destroy them before introducing your bought one.


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## andrewj54 (Nov 7, 2018)

Well that’s slightly better news, now all there’s left to do is install the new queen tomorrow and hope they accept her.


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## andrewj54 (Nov 7, 2018)

Oldtimer said:


> Agreed. The comb is normal colour.
> 
> And since you got the queen coming you may as well continue to give this your best shot, because if nothing else, the longer you can keep this hive alive, the more you will learn.
> 
> ...


They have "queen cells" that are all empty, I have kept an eye on them for a while. When I get the new queen I will destroy all these "queen cells", also I have an idea of ow re queening should work but how long should I leave her in the cage before allowing them to free her?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The procedure is after any queen cells are killed, put the introduction cage in between brood combs with the tab or whatever is covering the candy removed, so the hive bees have access to the candy. The hive bees will take around 2 days to chew out the candy so the queen can get out, by which time the bees should have accepted her. Things can be a little tense when she is first released, so best not to disturb the hive for at least a week after the cage was put in.


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## andrewj54 (Nov 7, 2018)

Okay queen arrived, candy plug was exposed, placed between the two brood frames and all “queen cells” were destroyed. Only time will tell, should I check back inside the hive after 10 days or so? Or just operate under the assumption they accepted her?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

andrewj54 said:


> Okay queen arrived, candy plug was exposed, placed between the two brood frames and all “queen cells” were destroyed. Only time will tell, should I check back inside the hive after 10 days or so? Or just operate under the assumption they accepted her?


Do check in a day or so to see the un-plugging progress.
In fact, if they like her, could just open the cage and let her out.
If they are trying to kill her (if not already) - different project then (though less likely the case).


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I would have to disagree with that, because as an ex queen breeder, I had so many cases where the person interfered and caused the queen to be lost. When if he had just left things alone it would have been fine.

There may be advantage in a very experienced beekeeper having a look before the introduction process is complete, he may discover some issue that he can fix.

But with new beekeepers, the general rule is the less they interfere, the better the result.

I nearly got to the point of putting in the instructions that if people lost the queen because they interfered inside of a week of putting the cage in, I would not be supplying a free replacement.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> I would have to disagree with that, ........


Well, if one is unable to determine whether bees like or dislike the introduced queen - sure - the best bet is to just let it go as-is (chances are greater they DO like her - so this is a fine plan).

IF, however, you observe a clear dislike for the queen (a possibility) - you have options still if act timely (they will surely kill her in 10 days if you wait for that long).

The like/dislike is really observable within minutes; no need to wait even a day.


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## andrewj54 (Nov 7, 2018)

So I did observe for the first few minutes after placing the queen in the hive. From my knowledge if they ball the cage and refuse to move it’s dislike, if they are on the cage but can brush them off they are more likely to accept her. Is this case or is there more to it than this?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

andrewj54 said:


> So I did observe for the first few minutes after placing the queen in the hive. From my knowledge if they ball the cage and refuse to move it’s dislike, if they are on the cage but can brush them off they are more likely to accept her. Is this case or is there more to it than this?


If no obvious aggression is demonstrated (as in they are trying to break inside so to kill her) - I would just close in and walk away.
They should release her in 2-3-4 days.
No real rush.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

GregV said:


> Well, if one is unable to determine whether bees like or dislike the introduced queen -
> 
> IF, however, you observe a clear dislike for the queen (a possibility) -


IF you would use a push-in cage, none of this like-dislike matters.


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## andrewj54 (Nov 7, 2018)

So far so good, I checked today just to get an update on the status before more rain and I leave town for a week. They chewed through the wax and I actually saw her on the frame the cage was placed into, no signs of aggression that I was able to witness. I think they must have just got her out because they were still surrounding and following her, but not balling or exerting any signs of aggression. Therefore the hive is shut and will remain shut till probably the end of December, I will check back on them around this time and hope to update you all!


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