# Insecticide for SHB?



## LT (Aug 17, 2006)

What is the best insecticide for the SHB both inside and outside of the hive? Thanks in advance


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## SlickMick (Feb 28, 2009)

I dont know that I would use any insecticides inside the hive or outside of it.

The issue that has to be dealt with is that they can be carried into your honey supers and your bees will be susceptible to it also. At the moment traps using oil, dimetacious earth or borax, strong hives with frames fully covered with strongly defensive bees and good housekeeping are the best management practices available at the moment.

Mick


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## mgmoore7 (Jul 6, 2007)

Some use roach bait in CD cases or in sign board so the bees can't get in but the beetles can.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

To my knowledge, the only approved 'in hive' treatment is Checkmite (cumophos). The roach bait active ingredient is fipronil. From what I've seen the roach bait is very effective but also quite illegal. 
In my opinion, the safest solution is a strong hive without too much unoccupied real estate (empty supers).


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## mgmoore7 (Jul 6, 2007)

Yes, as far as I know you are right on the legality issue.


Strong hives is a topic in an of itself. While I agree, it is probably the best solution. Let me list some scenarios that a strong hive is may be difficult to maintain 100% of the time:

Mating Nucs - by their design, they are initially weak or will be until the new queen starts laying and those start hatching. To keep these strong, it would take continually intruding and inserting more bees and/or brood.
Swarms - they will get weak before they get strong.
Splits - again, these will get weak before they get strong
Time - sometimes, waiting to put supers on until just the right time is difficult. It also, may mean that opportunity is lost if there is a big flow and no supers, then the chance of swarming increases and then you will have a weaker hive with alot of space to manage
Shade - the SHB loves shade. Sometimes, putting hives in full sun all day is just not an option. So a hive that might be ok in full sun, may be too weak in a shaded location.
Packages - they will get weak before they get strong. Typically, the are put in full hives. That would be a mistake in FL. Nucs must be used. I am even using 2 frame nucs for this purpose.


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

Walter kelley company, told me that the beetle, in the pupae stage, has to go back to the earth, to mature, then go back to the hive. They said the beetle does not like high pH ground, so to lime the ground around the hive, and raise the pH. This will cause the beetle to go somewhere else. They also said to mix 1 cup of salt with 1 quart of water, put it in a sprayer and LIGHTLY mist the bees on the frames. This is a pH thing too, and will cause the mites, to let go. The said the mites don't like the high pH either. So, it stands to reason, that the salt water will help drive the beetles out. They said to LIGHTLY mist, don't drown them. It's cheap anyway. I have limed the ground and got the West Hive Beetle traps, but have not have time to install yet.


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## SlickMick (Feb 28, 2009)

There is a question mark about what you have been told of the shb larva needing to go back to the soil to pupate.

From my understanding the larva can pupate within the hive and this makes it difficult to deal with. Floor traps can pick up some of the larva as it moves to the front of the hive where it is attracted by the light but the treatment of the soil around the hive is also necessary to deal with those that manage to drop off the landing board.

Mick


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

They might do it. I'm just relating what I was told. The Hive and Honey Bee, also said that they had to go back to ground, but then, bugs and animals have a way of progressing through things, over time.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Chick said:


> Walter kelley company, told me that the beetle, in the pupae stage, has to go back to the earth, to mature, then go back to the hive. -.


GaurdStar is sprinkled in front of the hive entrance area
for 18 inches or so. Inexpensive to use and effective for
at least 60 days. Pyrethin based (from flowers) and it is
formulated to bind to the soils.


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

The reason behind the lime, is to raise the ground pH. It is cheap an not harmful to the bees.


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## mgmoore7 (Jul 6, 2007)

Treating the ground is fine as part of a IPM and will help break the life cycle, but....

Treating the ground is a measure that is really too late. The SHB hone in on weak hives and can overrun a hive long before their eggs and larve have a chance to complete their life cycle. Therefore, treating the ground is really just a long term help to reduce the total population of a the beetles but may do nothing to stop a hive from getting overrun with beetles in the short run.


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

Agreed, but, you took a part of the treatment, and not the whole treatment that I was given. The part you left out was about useing the salt water in combination with the lime. As was related to me by Walter Kelly Company, who has been a bee supplier and expert for many years, the salt water mist raises the ph, on the bees and in the hive. The increased pH, causes the bugs (mites and beetles) to not like the environment, and drop out of the box. They also said that the beetle pupae stage must go back to ground, to complete it's life cycle. When it gets to the ground, they do not like the increased pH of the ground, and goes somewhere else. They did not say, nor do I believe, that this is a 100% treatment, but rather a way to control them, and you must keep your hive strong. They did say if the bugs could be controlled in this manner, that it was much better than using the chemicals, which can be harmful to the hive. It is just a natural way to help control them. Of course, If a hive is really infested with bugs, other methods would have to be employed. I have not only done the above, but have bought beetle traps and a powdered sugar blower (varroa mite), in an effort to control them without chemical usage.


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## mgmoore7 (Jul 6, 2007)

The issue that I have with the 2nd part of your treatment this is that this is 1st time I have heard of any such treatment for SHB or varroa. I would like to see some evidence from more than just one company.


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## SlickMick (Feb 28, 2009)

mgmoore7 said:


> Treating the ground is fine as part of a IPM and will help break the life cycle, but....
> 
> Treating the ground is a measure that is really too late. The SHB hone in on weak hives and can overrun a hive long before their eggs and larve have a chance to complete their life cycle. Therefore, treating the ground is really just a long term help to reduce the total population of a the beetles but may do nothing to stop a hive from getting overrun with beetles in the short run.


Chick, I am glad that you are not seeing the lime and salt water as a solve all with the shb and is only a part of the management the pest

The goal has to be to control the shb before it becomes a problem. Once you are seeing larva on the bottom of the hive, the colony may well be in trouble. The beetle is just the start of the problem should it become settled into the hive. The larva is the thing that causes the damage and all this before it emerges from the hive so by the time the larva is in the ground your hive has been devestated. The treatment of the ground is really to prevent the re-emergence of the larva as new beetle which is crucial in any case. Unfortunately the beetle flies in so even if we were able to eliminate all beetle, eggs and larva from within the hive and outside in the ground we would still have a problem with them flying in

The female shb can lay hundreds of eggs and a handful of them in a hive that has been weakened and/or has no management practice in place can be over-run in a matter of days and by then your honey will be contaminated with faeces and the brood frames will have their larva and eggs destroyed. What remains of your colony may abscond. This has happened to me on 2 separate occasions and it is not an experience anyone would want to have to deal with. All I did was replace the stickies back onto the hives for the bees to clean up after extraction. What I didn't realise was that I was providing the shb with 9 deep frames of comb above another honey super and this emtpy comb provided a wonderful place for the shb to breed and multiply. A week later my hive/s were finished.

I think that the strength of the hive is really important. The frames should be covered with bees as then there is nowhere for the shb to hide. You should be able to see the bees attacking the shb on the comb.

Traps within the hive are an important element in keeping numbers under control. Traps that go on top of the frames and also those that go on the bottom board are useful. The bottom board ones also are able to show if the shb is laying by trapping emerging larva.

Then there is the outside hive management to which you have pointed. Some beeks place their hives on an impervious layer to prevent the larva getting into the ground.

So I think that it is the combination of things that allow us to deal with the issue


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## SlickMick (Feb 28, 2009)

Matt, the salt water spray is not something that I have heard of either and it would be interesting to know if there have been any studies done on it.

In a practical sense, I think it would be fairly cumbersome if it required doing every week or so and would be problematic for commercial enterprises. 

But still it is something I would like to know more about.. ratio of salt to water, frequency of application, location of application (over the top of the frames, on the brood comb etc) testing for ph and so on.

Chick, are you able to follow this up with your supplier?? Would be good of you to do so.:thumbsup:

Mick


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

The salt water mist is to raise the pH on the bees and in the hive. It is also mainly aimed at the the verroa mite, but the increased pH, also is not liked by the beetle. They did not tell me a frequency, but I would think once a week, for maybe 3 weeks. the ratio is 1 cup of salt to 1 quart of water. They also stressed to lightly mist the bees, and not to "drown" them. They told me to pull the frames out and to lightly mist the bees on the frame, and then to put it back and do another. 

Hey guys, All I did was to relate a procedure that was told me by a supplier that I think knows what they are talking about. Please don't shoot me! I am not saying this is a cure all or the only way to do things. I think it is a management tool only. I also imagine that if you don't have a bad problem, that it might work pretty good.


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## Dr.Wax (Apr 30, 2008)

My advice would be to adopt a new mindset which does not rely upon chemicals. This is the direction the beekeeping industry is moving in right now after slowly realizing the damage pesticides are doing to their bees.

When you consider using an insecticide in or around your hive please keep in mind that bees are also insects..

Try a trap, strong hives or placing your hives in full sun or all of the above.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Dr.Wax said:


> My advice would be to adopt a new mindset which does not rely upon chemicals..


I totally agree..... but if you get Nucs with an infestation
and SHB is not established in your area, I treat with checkmite
and drench the area in front of entrances with GaurdStar.

Don't like it, but like SHB even less............

By all means, follow good practices.

Formic acid is something SHB does not care for either.


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## SlickMick (Feb 28, 2009)

Chick said:


> The salt water mist is to raise the pH on the bees and in the hive. It is also mainly aimed at the the verroa mite, but the increased pH, also is not liked by the beetle. They did not tell me a frequency, but I would think once a week, for maybe 3 weeks. the ratio is 1 cup of salt to 1 quart of water. They also stressed to lightly mist the bees, and not to "drown" them. They told me to pull the frames out and to lightly mist the bees on the frame, and then to put it back and do another.
> 
> Hey guys, All I did was to relate a procedure that was told me by a supplier that I think knows what they are talking about. Please don't shoot me! I am not saying this is a cure all or the only way to do things. I think it is a management tool only. I also imagine that if you don't have a bad problem, that it might work pretty good.


Chick, your contribution is appreciated. I am sure that those of us who have lost hives to the SHB are keen to examine new suggestions regarding its management and I, sure as anything, do now want to shoot the messenger. Thanks for posting this additional information.

Keeping chemicals out of the hive and the surrounding areas has to be our ultimate goal and discovering new ways of dealing with the SHB has to be our focus in this.

Mick


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

When you think about it, the supplier could have sold me some expensive chemical for the beetles and mites. They are the ones that suggested this. I do not appear to have a bad problem with either one though, but they are present.


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## SlickMick (Feb 28, 2009)

Stay vigilant, Chick

Mick


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