# Michael Bush Video



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

After giving up or tiring of most hobbies through my life, this gave some clarity as to why beekeeping is still as fascinating to me as it was on day one. Great video.

https://youtu.be/MK3cmHFbWs4


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## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

Some very good thoughts. One thing Michael said is "Learn to trust the bees. Trust that the bees know what they are doing, rather than I know what I am doing...". This resonates with me given my ever growing lack of knowledge of all bee related things.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Absolutely. I think it's a lesson I was reminded of this year trying to push things too early against their (the bees) better instinct.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

"Learn to trust the bees"? What does that mean?

Does it mean when swarm season comes and they want to swarm, you let them? Does it mean when one hive starts robbing another hive, you let it? Does it mean when the bees are mad and trying to get to your face through your veil, you open it up and let them in?


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

Lots of (smart) beekeepers use variations on this quote. Brother Adam said "Listen to the bees and let them guide you". It is a standard line in Michael Palmer's talks. Lots of beginning bee books say something along the lines of "if you don't know what to do, do nothing" because the bees' instincts are often better than the beekeeper's. The idea of working with bees' natural instincts instead of trying to suppress them is pervasive in the literature. To do that, you have to understand what the bees are doing (and hopefully why).

But, maybe, yes... I think you should try the "if the bees are bouncing off your veil, let them in" thing and then report back to us how that works out for you.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

AvatarDad said:


> Lots of (smart) beekeepers use variations on this quote. Brother Adam said "Listen to the bees and let them guide you". It is a standard line in Michael Palmer's talks. Lots of beginning bee books say something along the lines of "if you don't know what to do, do nothing" because the bees' instincts are often better than the beekeeper's. The idea of working with bees' natural instincts instead of trying to suppress them is pervasive in the literature. To do that, you have to understand what the bees are doing (and hopefully why).
> 
> But, maybe, yes... I think you should try the "if the bees are bouncing off your veil, let them in" thing and then report back to us how that works out for you.


:thumbsup:


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

JeronimoJC said:


> One thing Michael said is "Learn to trust the bees. Trust that the bees know what they are doing, rather than I know what I am doing...". This resonates with me given my ever growing lack of knowledge of all bee related things.


+1. I use a lot of local feral mutts. I don't feed and I use relatively small entrances (4.875 square inches). I don't own a robbing screen and haven't needed one. In areas where I specifically intend to frustrate the instinct of the bees, like preventing swarming, I try to learn how to do that from them, and Walt, of course.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

AvatarDad said:


> The idea of working with bees' natural instincts instead of trying to suppress them is pervasive in the literature.


I guess I am dumb beekeeper that deserves to be stung. Please help me understand:

Where does the line between "working with the bees' instincts" and "suppressing them" fall? How is that line known? At what point, starting from removing bees from their natural home in a hollow log, to robbing their honey, to wrapping hives in the extreme north, to influencing/controlling queen breeding, to exposing them to widespread pesticide use, to treating for diseases, or, accidently introducing diseases but not treating for them, etc., is the line crossed?




.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Isn't the line crossed when the deleterious effects of certain beekeeping practices make themselves known?

If the focus became honeybee and ecosystem health, how would our practices change?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

JeronimoJC said:


> Some very good thoughts. One thing Michael said is "Learn to trust the bees. Trust that the bees know what they are doing, rather than I know what I am doing...". This resonates with me given my ever growing lack of knowledge of all bee related things.


This is pure, content-less "guru" rap. A zen-like aphorism that makes the "sheep" nod as if being blessed by deep wisdom. This is the first step as they surrender any independent critical distance on all the other mythos being sold.

Instead, Bush could give a short factual account about how his apiary went from 200 to 40 hives from 2014 to 2016.

He could explain why the blog accounts of his 2016 bee camp concentrated on the expression, "Even experts lose lots of bees".


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Shinbone


> Where does the line between "working with the bees' instincts" and "suppressing them" fall? How is that line known? At what point, starting from removing bees from their natural home in a hollow log, to robbing their honey, to wrapping hives in the extreme north, to influencing/controlling queen breeding, to exposing them to widespread pesticide use, to treating for diseases, or, accidently introducing diseases but not treating for them, etc., is the line crossed?


If bees are making a democratic desision on where to move and you put up a bait hive and all the scouts go out and look at all availible nesting sites and out of all of those decides to move into your trap, You are working with the bees by providing the home they liked best. If there is a big flow on and you pick this time to make a couple of queens, you are working with the bees by picking a time where the resources and thier instinct would tell them it is the right time for propogating. If you open the brood nest, you are working with the bees instinct that tells them that they are getting crowded and their natural instinct tells them they still have time. If you provide space you are working with the bees hording instincts and their need of stores for survival and lucky for you that instinct allows you some honey also.

If you put a queen in a hive that has a queen, you are working against their instinct cause they only want one queen and so working against their instinct does not work well and leave you two queens in one open hive.
Cheers
gww


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

JWChesnut said:


> Instead, Bush could give a short factual account about how his apiary went from 200 to 40 hives from 2014 to 2016.


The only 'fact' we would get is that it was from something other than varroa.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jwchestnut


> Instead, Bush could give a short factual account about how his apiary went from 200 to 40 hives from 2014 to 2016.


You mean like langstroth did in his book and like miller did in his book (50 years with bees) or like dezorian or what ever his name is where he lost down to just a couple of hives but was considered a good bee keeper because he was able to turn those hive into a couple of hundred in just a few years. 

Seems like several of the looked up to beekeepers of the past had ebbs and flows and are still looked up to for their skill. I know micheal palmer in his vidio where he took over 600 polination hives was having big repalcement issues till he started wintering nucs. 

All these guys that had some failures also had a lot of things that advanced bee keeping for lots of people. It may not all be good but it can not all be bad either.
Cheers
gww


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I make a huge number of mistakes in my apiary, so I sympathize with others who may do the same. I think anyone who runs a large number of hives is likely going to experience a large number of losses at least once in their beekeeping career, too. It is just the nature of the endeavor.

For better or worse, I am a pragmatic person. While "trust the bees" sounds wonderfully poetic, I can't convert that high level concept into practical guidance when working my hives. I freely admit to this personal deficit in my already-limited mental skill set. Basic things like don't put two queens in a hive and putting out swarm traps help illustrate the point, but I don't need "trust the bees" to know about those techniques.

It is almost like "trust the bees" is too high level to help rookie and journeyman beekeepers and that you need to be a master-level beekeeper to know how to practically apply the statement, but by that point you know so much about beekeeping that the statement is a redundancy and of no practical help.




.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Shinbone
I don't know for sure if I am getting your point but if I am, I believe I am the same. I would be a better bee keeper if I had an abc plan that I could follow rather then having to think of things like the flow is three weeks early and so you need to do this a week before that. 

I would do much better if it was just add two supers on april the first. Split for increase on april 15. Take honey on july 4. 

If it could be broke down to a bunch of actions that need to be done at a certain time and it would then work perfectly, I would not need or probly dig into the why it works but would be happy that it does.

That would let me be successful with out also needing to pay attention and be smart too.

I am thinking that that would work for me. Not knowing why it works but just that it does.

Cheers
gww


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

shinbone said:


> I make a huge number of mistakes in my apiary, so I sympathize with others who may do the same. I think anyone who runs a large number of hives is likely going to experience a large number of losses at least once in their beekeeping career, too. It is just the nature of the endeavor.
> 
> For better or worse, I am a pragmatic person. While "trust the bees" sounds wonderfully poetic, I can't convert that high level concept into practical guidance when working my hives. I freely admit to this personal deficit in my already-limited mental skill set. Basic things like don't put two queens in a hive and putting out swarm traps help illustrate the point, but I don't need "trust the bees" to know about those techniques.
> 
> It is almost like "trust the bees" is too high level to help rookie and journeyman beekeepers and that you need to be a master-level beekeeper to know how to practically apply the statement, but by that point you know so much about beekeeping that the statement is a redundancy and of no practical help.


Shinbone, I like your post #14, I don't agree with all of it, but I like it. If I lived in the far north and used Georgia bees, I likely wouldn't trust 'em too much. If I was trying to get them to brood up for almonds, I would want to understand how and why they brood up when the do, but I wouldn't leave the timing up to them. You say, "While 'trust the bees' sounds wonderfully poetic, I can't convert that high level concept into practical guidance when working my hives." But I would not be surprised if you understand bees very well and use their instincts and preferences to your advantage well and often. I keep bees differently than you probably, maybe even better for my location, purposes, and circumstances. But I doubt that I know the instincts and tendencies of bees better than you do. If you believe, you'll see.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Its more a statement about observation rather than action. Learn to pay attention. Lots of people never learn this.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>"Learn to trust the bees"? What does that mean?
>Does it mean when swarm season comes and they want to swarm, you let them? Does it mean when one hive starts robbing another hive, you let it? Does it mean when the bees are mad and trying to get to your face through your veil, you open it up and let them in?

It means if you want to rear queens, watch what the bees are doing to figure out when to do that. It means if you're having issues with whatever your goals are, you need to figure out what goal the bees are working towards. If means if they are wanting to start a new colony, you should help them. If they are being robbed, you should try to reduce the need for more bees by reducing the entrance or maybe also by reducing the space they have. If you figure out what they are trying to do and help them you will get a lot further than trying to make them do what you want. Certainly you can manipulate the circumstances to improve the outcome for you, such as queenrearing.

>Instead, Bush could give a short factual account about how his apiary went from 200 to 40 hives from 2014 to 2016.

The short and simple answer is that it did not go from 200 to 40 hives between 2014 to 2016. From 2014 to 2016 it went from about 40 hives to about 40 hives... Your time frame is totally off. The drop took place over a much longer period of time and is mostly due to me not being available to do any beekeeping for several years, in fact I was not even in the US for several of those years and the bees were completely on their own. It seems to me that the "take away" should be that after quite a few years of not only no treatments, but no beekeeping, there are still quite a few bees in my yard. I hope to have time to actually spend this year on beekeeping now that I finally got moved from the old house to the new one. Beekeeping takes a lot of time and energy. I have had very little time in recent years.

>He could explain why the blog accounts of his 2016 bee camp concentrated on the expression, "Even experts lose lots of bees".

Since it was not my blog account, I can only say that I don't lose a lot a bees.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> It means if you're having issues with whatever your goals are, you need to figure out what goal the bees are working towards.


This is a helpful first step in a practical application of the high level concept: Align your goals with the bees' goals. Align your timing with the bees' timing.



.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>This is a helpful first step in a practical application of the high level concept: Align your goals with the bees' goals. Align your timing with the bees' timing.

Yes. Maybe a negative example would help. If the bees are not in the mood to make queens it is probably a poor time to be rearing queens. Or if you are dead set on making 10 splits from one hive, but the bees are not really taking off yet, it is probably not a good plan to go whole hog on splits. Some years, though it might work. To answer which kind of year it is, you pay attention to the bees.


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

i respect Michael bush not because of his beekeeping or treatment , non treatment but putting up with all the targeting and slander he gets on this form, and will still answer people's questions.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

ethanhogan said:


> i respect Michael bush not because of his beekeeping or treatment , non treatment but putting up with all the targeting and slander he gets on this form, and will still answer people's questions.


Yes, he is a very dignified person.
I hope he will still answer my mails even if I have to use IPM for a while on my path.


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

SiWolKe said:


> I hope he will still answer my mails even if I have to use IPM for a while on my path.


I have read a lot of his writings, watched many of his videos, and think i understand his philosophy, yet have seen him answer questions that are contrary to how he does things because he has the knowledge and he is generally very helpful. 




Michael Bush said:


> Beekeeping takes a lot of time and energy. I have had very little time in recent years.


This is why I have not been able to do a lot of the things in beekeeping that I want to do, too. For example, I had plans for things to do in my apiary last weekend, but instead spent the time fixing two vehicles! Best laid plans, and all that....


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## Rww930 (Mar 14, 2016)

Some of u r a pain in the ass and that is why I went to about two bee meetings....the same knuckle heads.

Bush, in my view, has only attempted to help others beeks as he sees it through his views and experiences.

He forces nothing on noone.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Rww930 said:


> Some of u r a pain in the ass and that is why I went to about two bee meetings....the same knuckle heads.
> 
> Bush, in my view, has only attempted to help others beeks as he sees it through his views and experiences.
> 
> He forces nothing on noone.


:thumbsup:


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## John64 (Dec 6, 2016)

Bee camp 2017 was awesome even with the rain, storms, and fluctuating temperatures. Work week was the best part.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

I honestly don't understand why treatment-free beekeepers are so vilified. But we are. And it's why i limit my contributions on all forums, including my local state forum. Unlike Michael Bush, i just can't take the abuse.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

estreya said:


> I honestly don't understand why treatment-free beekeepers are so vilified. But we are. And it's why i limit my contributions on all forums, including my local state forum. Unlike Michael Bush, i just can't take the abuse.


It´s because we know that to be an elite builds walls. Take the abuse and enjoy some people changing their attitudes.

MB is an example to us. He shows us how to be dignified. It not only improves the beekeeping, it improves character. I try to improve mine but it´s a long way  still to go.


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

What I take from "listen to the bees," and similar phrases is more like, "Figure out what drives the bees to do things, the things to which they respond. Then when you want them to do that thing, give them the appropriate stimulus. If you need help from climate/weather and it isn't The Right Time, then wait until it is. Or find a way to fake it that's good enough to fool the bees."


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

DerTiefster said:


> What I take from "listen to the bees," and similar phrases is more like, "Figure out what drives the bees to do things, the things to which they respond. Then when you want them to do that thing, give them the appropriate stimulus. If you need help from climate/weather and it isn't The Right Time, then wait until it is. Or find a way to fake it that's good enough to fool the bees."


It's also, if in doubt (and if there is not an obvious reason to deviate), do what the bees do. What size entrance? Look at the average size of entrance of feral hives in your area. What size cavity? What do bees use? When to requeen? What do bees do? What kind of buildup is good? What do the bees do? When to move to almonds? Wait, that doesn't work. 

Some exceptions are caused by novel pests. Bees like shade, but so do hive beetles. You can listen to the bees, but you shouldn't always do what they say.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

estreya said:


> I honestly don't understand why treatment-free beekeepers are so vilified.


There is goodwill among most folks I know who treat and most folks I know who don't treat.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

estreya said:


> I honestly don't understand why treatment-free beekeepers are so vilified.


For the same reason that tf folks vilify commercial/treating beekeepers. For the same reason that Republicans vilify Democrats and vice versa. 
There is a undue belief in many people that they are on the right track and anyone differing is purely wrong. It is an arrogance driven by an overblown ego. 
If you take a contentious, opposing view as a personal affront….you are smart to post little and read even less.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The general tone of this thread with words like vilify and slander being thrown around. Wow. Just wow.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Really? I'm getting flack now? On this thread? Yea, my skin is clearly too thin. My use of the word "vilify" was because i've seen quite a lot of verbal attacks on treatment-free beekeeping practices and practitioners over the years. Is it ALL i've seen? No. Of course not. And it was never intended to be a blanket statement. But by all means - latch on to one word in one post and make me feel like $#)~! for posting it. Congrats.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Flack? I thought "wow" was because the increase in vocabulary made this a "classier" post.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

from where i sit there doesn't appear to be as much negative criticism being levied from either side these days as compared to when i first joined beesource.

i'd like to think that is partly because there are those of us reporting our experiences here showing that keeping bees off treatments is not only possible but can result in survival and production that is competitive with conventional methods...

as well as the recognition that beekeeping is not a one size fits all endeavor and that there are different modes of operation and certain parts of the country that just don't lend themselves very easily to treatment free.

moderating has actually become fairly easy these days. many thanks to all for observing etiquette and exercising civility.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

estreya said:


> Really? I'm getting flack now? On this thread? Yea, my skin is clearly too thin. My use of the word "vilify" was because i've seen quite a lot of verbal attacks on treatment-free beekeeping practices and practitioners over the years. Is it ALL i've seen? No. Of course not. And it was never intended to be a blanket statement. But by all means - latch on to one word in one post and make me feel like $#)~! for posting it. Congrats.


Wow


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## MOBeeus (Jun 4, 2017)

Seems like the reason non-treatment practitioners are scrutinized is because they are seen as the weak link in a wide spread "protection web" type ideal. One beekeeper decides to go natural, gets a bad pest that goes rampant and it spreads over an entire region.

The same argument could be made for those that use dangerous pesticides though.

Personally I try to not use anything but I do what I need to when it's necessary.

My personal outlook is do what you're comfortable with and don't worry about peer pressure...you're the one that has to live with the consequences. 

As far as MB, I totally support the listen to what the bees are telling you philosophy. If you aren't smart enough to understand it then work harder until you do because there's definitely some wisdom to it. The only way you'll understand it (or what the bees are telling you) is to learn how to read them, what they are doing and why and to do that takes experience, research, close observation and a mindset to never quit and self improve. Beekeeping isn't for everyone, some folks just don't have all they need to be successful at it...time, patience, attention span, fortitude, etc...
Everyone loses bees from time to time, anyone that says they don't are either very remarkable or very remarkable liars.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

estreya said:


> But by all means - latch on to one word in one post


Even when I reread your post, it comes across to me as a blanket statement. I would say that when you are posting for all the world to see......choose your words with care. People might just read them and respond. Just a little constructive criticism but if you decide to take it as abuse and believe it makes you feel like $#)~!...it is your problem...not my fault.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Rww930 said:


> Some of u r a pain in the ass and that is why I went to about two bee meetings....the same knuckle heads.


Thing to realise about "knuckle head" beekeepers is that they too are in it because they love bees. And likely have something to share. If you are open minded enough to hear it.

Refering to people as "knuckle heads" indicates you have closed your mind to them completely. That is your loss, not theirs.

On Beesource I have learned stuff from people who don't even have bees yet. Mostly everyone has something worth learning from.


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## DG2015 (Mar 4, 2015)

Listen to the bees.

I found this advice extremely helpful when transitioning away from gloves. A few stings is a not so gentle reminder to pay attention to what the bees are telling you. I think most beekeepers can agree on this. 

Listen to the bees. 

This is good advice. Keep it simple and don't overthink it!


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

beemandan said:


> For the same reason that tf folks vilify commercial/treating beekeepers. For the same reason that Republicans vilify Democrats and vice versa.
> There is a undue belief in many people that they are on the right track and anyone differing is purely wrong. It is an arrogance driven by an overblown ego.
> If you take a contentious, opposing view as a personal affront….you are smart to post little and read even less.


Well said.

Divisions within the ranks?

Alas, emotionally charged Tribalism reigns pretty high with the human species, a trait seemingly absent from our bees, at least within their particular tribe...:scratch:

We all can do better.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

After nearly 30 years of being 'bee-havers', we credit MB and other like-minded beeks with our becoming beekeepers....and reminding us that bees are not cattle.



All mediums, TF, foundationless since 2007....and still learning every day


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

drummerboy said:


> emotionally charged Tribalism reigns pretty high with the human species, a trait seemingly absent from our bees, at least within their particular tribe...


Not arguing your overall salient point, but i do find tribalism fascinating, and as a life-long fan of the Seattle Seahawks, i fully participate.

Bees are very tribalistic to their colony, as are wolves to packs and lions to prides and so on. Us humans can hold more than one thing in our mind at a time, and we are capable of rational thought and recognition of when we are unreasonably holding one thing against another. But even when we do, that does not mean we will. 



drummerboy said:


> We all can do better.


Indeed.


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## Rww930 (Mar 14, 2016)

Now where else do I see this happening....hmmmm


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