# Supers for TBH's?



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

This, from this thread http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=604091#post604091



Delta Bay said:


> I think it a good idea to build some of the bars over the brood area with the bee space between for times when emergency feeding through the later part of winter is necessary. Also depending on the flow and their TBH size they may need to super to give extra room for storage if needed. I don't think it is a rule that you can't super. It would be more like running a box hive at times.
> How a TBH is managed should be location dependant.
> 
> For me it is all about low cost and not needing storage space for equipment when not in use.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/LongHiveSupered.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm

I've done it. It kind of defeats the purpose of a horizontal hive, which is to avoid lifting. It's difficult to get the bees to work a super unless they are forced to go through it as there is not as much communication because there are no gaps between the frames. I use a top entrance and when the super is added the entrance moves up to the top of the super. That way they have to fly through the super.


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

What I'm thinking, and clearly you have much more experience than I, what if you just used spacers underneath the super so they could move up easily. Maybe use a queen excluder, if you wanted to make it an exclusive honey super.
B


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What is a TBH beekeeper doing w/ a super anyway? It'd be like hitching my draft horse up to the truck to go to town. But hay, what do I know. Crazier things have been done.

Everything works if you let it. Right Michael?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

:lookout:


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

Just trying to get a little extra honey if it happens without having to move heavy boxes around. I'm a hobbyist. One, maybe two top bar hives for me is all I ever want. 
It is interesting how a little creativity is perceived on these forums though.
Just sayin' 
Bruce


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Beeheck it's actually a good idea. To my mind the bigest drawback to Top Bar Hives is they are a long hive and can't be supered. But if they can be supered by using top bars with inset sides to let the bees through, it's somewhere for the bees to put honey you will likely get more.

Bees like to go up and that's also where they like to put the honey.

It hasn't been normal in the past to super a TBH but more people are talking about it so why not let evolution continue.


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

I had talked with a beekeeper who did just that and she got a couple extra supers of capped honey out of her top bar hive that year besides what she harvested from the top bar hive. She used short spacers on each end to allow the bees through that section where the super was and the bees moved naturally up. I have a bit of a bad back so I liked the idea of pulling a super off at about waist level and replacing with a new one. Now I'm thinking through using a queen excluder to keep the queen from moving up and laying brood. Anyway, it's fun to think of the possibilities with that kind of design and I like a top bar for its reduced manipulation and natural comb building so it fits the way I want to participate in this hobby.
Bruce


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Beeheck said:


> It is interesting how a little creativity is perceived on these forums though.
> Just sayin'
> Bruce


I know my replies are often heavy handed. That's the kind of guy I am, I guess. Never really had finess (sp?) or tack or diplomacy.

It just seems funny to me that one would want a TBH, for whatever reason, and then would want to use supers for honey production instead of doing what other TBH beekeepers do.

Why did you start beekeeping w/ a TBH?
Why didn't you go w/ Langstroth type equipment?

I am entertained/amused by those who spend time and resources reinventing the wheel. When a perfectly fine system is available people now a days seem to be attracted to TBH beekeeping because they think it is something, I don't know what, beefriendly? or since it is so popular all of a sudden it must be better than what most beekeepers use. Maybe it's the equipment that is most used that is the problem w/ modern beekeeping.

Bruce, do what you feel is right for you. Don't pay me much mind. I may be spitting into the wind of change.

Michael Bush is a good advisor. Take what he has to say and digest it. Then go your own way.


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

I'm ok with criticism, so don't worry about it. Your comments are appreciated and I understand how it might seem strange to some who are so accustomed to doing one thing for so long, but when I first took bee classes I was amazed at how much intervention a beekeeper was involved in and how much chemicals they casually used to eradicate pests. It was so normal for them. That's when I started researching to see if there was something else out there. I knew I wasn't going commercial so I thought in terms of one or two hives. The other thing I noticed in the classes was how every instructor talked about smoking to avoid the bees wrath and how heavy the supers could be. They all complained about bad backs and laughed about it. I have a bad back and the thought of lifting those boxes
heavily laden with honey (I hope) was not appealing. I also didn't see a benefit to smoking bees so I could spend a lot of time in the hive. I wanted to get in and get out quickly. The top bar hive allows me to do that. It's not about how much honey I get, It's just for me, my relatives and friends. It's about ease of access, short visits, less maintenance (from the standpoint of frames and cleaning) and ease of harvesting. I could be missing something here and I'll be the first to admit I don't have a lot of experience like many of you do, but the top bar hive does it for me and probably for a lot of hobbyists. That's why it's getting so popular. I can't think that more people getting involved with honeybees, no matter the hive, can be bad.
Bruce


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Beeheck said a lot of what I was going to say. Another big factor for me was start up costs. Today I am going to be going to a buddies house and building two TBHs for $16 is screws. There's also no messing with having to replace new frames etc. I would never have gotten into beekeeping at the prices of Langs as I don't want to get a ton of honey to sell. Just some honey to make mead. Lang kits with more than just one brood box are $300-500 and I am not a good enough wood worker to built those. So that was just my personal input on the why are more people using TBHs comment. Langs are still the best for those who are commercially involved or are in it to get a ton of honey, but maybe we will see more hobby beekeepers turn to TBHs as a cheap alternative.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Issues cost, if you are building a TBH for $16.00, then you are getting some materials for nothing. It could therefore be said you could build a lang for say, $10.00, if you got most of the materials for nothing.

When I did my cost comparison, using commercially available product, the TBH was dearer than a small lang which would be similar size bee wise.

Working a top bar hive is a pleasure, and unlikely to damage your back. But DO bear in mind this is partly because they just don't make much honey. The design is all wrong.

For this reason, if a person does want honey, I would encourage supering. I still doubt as much honey will be made as from a pure lang, but supering can both help reduce swarming (which can annoy the neighbors), and give the bees the ability, and the will, to store a lot more honey. And yes, use an excluder.

There has been increasing talk about it and I'm looking forward to this season when I think we might see the first pics of a supered TBH!


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

I think you may be indeed right. Have my camera with me at all times. Working on the boxes as we speak. Hoping for a productive and educational year!
Bruce


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Ya I guess I should say that I am getting free oak from a friend who mills the oak on his land. I am giving his wife wine/mead in return, but the cost for a few bottles of mead are near nothing as well. 

I have no experience in amount of honey produced by a TBH, but I agree with your statement Oldtimer. However, if at any point I produce enough honey to make 2 batches of mead I would have saved enough money to essentially pay off my new hobby. 

I see your comparison with the cost to build Langs, but I still am not knowledgeable or skillful enough to do that. :S

Now back on topic for me....I also am interested in this idea. Not sure if I will be a pioneer in the idea, but will be tracking it closely. I guess a good question is do you put a super only on one side or do you put enough supers on to cover the length of the TBH? Would the bees even enter all of those supers? If not then maybe one could even figure out a system where you had a custom super of a certain length, then just put an empty box on the other side, which the bees would not have access to (just a support), and you could put your original roof right over that. It would almost look like a shallow Tanzanian TBH on top of a Kenya TBH!


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

I'm going to build a super on the back end of the TBH. If I start the hive properly and get them building from the front entrance backward, when they get about 3/4's of the way down the length of the hive with drawn comb, I will then add the short spacers and put the super box on top. So, effectively, the super is only going to be put on when they've built out to the back enough. I would use another super on the front end but that's only to balance out the top so I can put the roof over it. I'll probably put in a queen excluder between the tbh and the super so they make only honey for me in the super. 
The only other question I have (and I'm sure to have more), is what will happen to the tbh when there's a gap between the top of the top bar hive and the roof which will be higher to accommodate the supers? I imagine there's going to be a draft and I don't know if that will be a problem or not.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

It has been done.. i've seen others like this too. 










but.. will a super on top encourage more honey than just yanking bars of full honey as a top bar is designed?


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

That's nice Jake. Looks really well done too. I'm trying to avoid losing my roof which was designed for the whole top bar and this picture just indicates that two roofs we're built to handle that situation. I guess I could do something like that as well.
When I talked to the beek who had done this she seemed to think that the bees worked harder to fill up the space when the super was added. But, I think it might also reduce the amount of time needed the manage the hive if you were only using the tbh.
Bruce


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks Beeheck, that tells me alot and gives me reason to be more understanding.

When I read "accustomed" my mind said "stuck in one's ways". My thoughts, not your meaning.

May I recommend a shallow super or even a combhoney super w/ homemade frames, since you are going for lightness? Just a thought.

Question please. Aren't the bars of a TBH cheek to jowl w/ no space between? So, how are the bees supposed to get up into a super? Trying to think like a TBHer.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

There are a lot of people experimenting with supering the tbh.

There has been a fair amount of invention, including top bars which are modified to create bee space between them, and this can be found at Phil Chandler's site biobees.com, and the associated forums on naturalbeekeeping.org

To me, the question Mark poses is where my hesitation lies. At a certain point of complexity, I (a tbh user) tend to find that I might as well switch to a lang set up. If I get into creating special methods of spacing and supering - it begins to run counter to the principal - simplicity.

But if you're going to do it...

My thought is to create perhaps three supers that can site end-to-end on top of the tbh, and can thus share the original roof. If on supers say just the back end, you have to deal with a split roof - one covering the super, and another covering the area of the tbh which is not supered.

I think I would modify the top bars to create bee space between each. I would do this by routing out a bit of each edge, so that when placed together, there is a space left. Then - when not using supers, I would have a waxed cloth laid across the bars, keeping the bees from coming up.

Just what I've thought about.

Adam


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I thought the point of bars pressed up against each other was to keep beespace between the combs.


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

Mark,

I think a shallow super with only top bars and no frames is the direction I think I'll go. It will basically be another top bar hive but it will be in a super I'll measure to fit the top of my top bar hive. 
This could turn out to be a great idea or a big thud of an idea but I thought about this because I think it will reduce the amount of time I need to manage the hive. I won't have to be always checking to make sure they have enough room in the top bar hive which is something we have to do at the tail end of the honey flow season. They can just move up into the super.
Bruce


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

Adam,

Backyardhive.com is working on a top bar hive super that essentially does what you're decribing without using Lang style supers. It's basically another top bar hive on top of a top bar hive with an available bottom board on the upper hive which can be removed when ready for them to move up and expand. I've thought of this as well. But, you're exactly right. There is a point when you begin to lose sight of your original goal which is to be less manipulative. Of course I still like the idea of keeping the hive down lower so I'm not lifting heavy supers, so using Langs would still not be an option for me.
Bruce


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I thought the point of bars pressed up against each other was to keep beespace between the combs.


It is. But there is no space between the bars themselves. The bees cannot go up, as when pressed together, and subsequently glued by the bees, they form a solid ceiling above the comb.

Adam


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Beeheck said:


> Adam,
> 
> Backyardhive.com is working on a top bar hive super that essentially does what you're decribing without using Lang style supers. It's basically another top bar hive on top of a top bar hive with an available bottom board on the upper hive which can be removed when ready for them to move up and expand. ...


Bruce,

Are they showing images of that design yet? They've been talking about it for a while now.

Adam


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

There's a picture of it under "shop". They do say they're working on a new design so I emailed them to find out when that will be available and of course, when they will have pictures.
Bruce


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Beeheck said:


> Mark,
> 
> I think a shallow super with only top bars and no frames is the direction I think I'll go.
> Bruce


So, you are going to crush and strain?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> It is. But there is no space between the bars themselves. The bees cannot go up, as when pressed together, and subsequently glued by the bees, they form a solid ceiling above the comb.
> 
> Adam


As I thought. So how would supering work?


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> As I thought. So how would supering work?


That's just it. 

You have to create space somehow that isn't there in the current popular designs. That's why some modify the bars to add a space, and others simply leave a bar or more out to create the space.

Adam


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Using a lang super would enable you to extract the honey with a honey extractor. Then your combs are ready for use next year, the bees don't even have to use resources building them.

There is no need to fear langstroth manipulations. Once the TBH is strong and ready to be supered, you put the super on. After that it's basically just leave it alone till the super is full, unless it becomes obvious they need yet another super.

And, too much honey? HEY.... no such thing! It's a great pleasure distributing surplus honey around friends and neighbors!


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

I was planning on crushing and straining but oldtimer had me thinking about using an extractor if I went with frames on at least the supers.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Just so you know that supering TBH's has been around for awhile. Jim Satterfield was doing it in the nineties. It's really about what fits for you. Have fun with it! 
Check out the TBH info on this site.

https://sites.google.com/site/topbarbeehives/beekeeping/supering-tbh


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

If you're worried about room, you could always build a longer hive too... I've thought about building a 5 footer, just to cut down on the pressure of having to remove before they get too full.

Adam


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