# Dead bees



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

What makes you think they are dead? Did you open the box to examine the cluster, or are they just quiet and not flying? (Opening the box to check, probably wasn't a good idea, but not likely lethal all by itself, if you did that.)

It's often said that a colony isn't dead, unless it's warm and dead. So perhaps all is not lost..

It's possible, but unlikely, the snow covered entrance killed them. There is still likely some air flow through the hive via the notch in the rim of the inner cover (though it can be blocked by the telescoping cover's overhang).

If your colony is truly gone, unfortunately the most likely precipitating cause were uncontrolled varroa mites and viruses they vector into the colony. What were your mite counts and the treatment history over the last five months, or so.

Nothing eases the chagrin and dismay of losing a hive, but learning why you lost it will help avoid the same outcome next year.

Nancy (Enjambres)

If you can provide more details that may help figure out what went wrong.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

I've had yards of bees buried completely in snow with no issues. If anything the snow insulates them better. If condensation is you issue you should check soon to see if the inside of the hive is soaking wet. Sounds like starvation wasn't the problem. So the next big issue is varroa mites. Did u treat for them?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

You might be able to detect faint cluster roar with the proper use of a decent stethoscope.

It takes some practice, but after some experience with it you'll be able to tell dead or alive with near 100% certainty.

This avoids having to break the propolis loose from the covers, but that's not necessarily the end of the world, and hives can be inspected in the winter if one is half-way careful on how they go about it.

Bottom line is it doesn't really make too much difference this time of year because there's not much you can or even need do about it one way or the other.

If you do find a deadout, do a mite wash with alcohol on the frozen cluster just for grins.


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## Wannabeebeekeeper (Jan 1, 2021)

Thanks for all the replies. Yes, they are all dead. Varroa, slim to none. Our winter has been very mild with most nighttime lows in the 30’s. No upper entrance. The more I read the more it seems an upper entrance is necessary for ventilation to prevent moisture buildup. My intention this summer was to build a shelter over them to just keep all the rain and snow off of them. Too many other projects and simply couldn’t get to it before the weather changed. This colony was able to completely fill out both supers even though we had an extremely short season. It did not stop raining and being cold and gloomy until July 1st. Then we got our 1st snow early in October to shut off all nectar flow. I would love the community opinions on building shelter over the hives, upper entrance for ventilation, weather or not I should have had an entrance reducer, and finally Apimaye plastic hives. Thank you all for your input. Tim.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Wannabeebeekeeper said:


> My intention this summer was to build a shelter over them to just keep all the rain and snow off of them.


Don't do that! Watch this before you even think about doing such a thing: (70) Would a Car Shelter Work to Winter the Honey Bees ?? - YouTube


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Moisture build up will quickly kill a colony when they are in winter cluster.

When the temperature and humidity are right the warm moist air rising of the cluster can condensate on the underside of the inner cover.

That icy cold condensation then drips back down onto the cluster, which is helpless to move away because they are tight cluster, and the cold water freezes them to death.

Evidence that this has occurred can be a wet mushy cluster of dead bees, a lot of dampness on the frames around and immediately above the cluster, and a soaking wet and possibly moldy underside to the bottom board.

This is usually not an issue for a colony in a tree hollow, but in a Langstroth hive it will happen quickly under the right conditions.

The preventative measure for this does include having a least a little ventillation at the top, (it doesn't take much), and making sure the top of the hive is well insulated so that any moisture in the hive will condensate on the inside walls and drip harmlessly down and out the bottom entrance (assuming you have the hive tilting slightly down in the front).

It's mild here in alabama, but on many winter mornings i can see water running out of my front entrances, and seeing that always brings a smile to my face.


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## Wannabeebeekeeper (Jan 1, 2021)

Clayton Huestis said:


> Don't do that! Watch this before you even think about doing such a thing: (70) Would a Car Shelter Work to Winter the Honey Bees ?? - YouTube


I’m talking about 4 posts and a roof. Just to keep the elements off. Open air, so to speak.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Being completey buried in snow keep the outside temp of the hive right at 32 degrees, and this actually makes it easier for the hive to keep warm compared to having air at sub freezing temps and or 'wind chill' in play.

jmho, but my recommendation is entrance facing south and east and getting sun during the day, a good wind break to the north and west, top only insulation, and a little venting at the top.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Clayton Huestis said:


> So the next big issue is varroa mites. Did u treat for them?





Wannabeebeekeeper said:


> Varroa, slim to none.


Which did not answer the actual question.

Would be helpful to know if you treated for varroa, and if so with what, and when.


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## Wannabeebeekeeper (Jan 1, 2021)

Oldtimer said:


> Which did not answer the actual question.
> 
> Would be helpful to know if you treated for varroa, and if so with what, and when.


No reason to treat.


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## Wannabeebeekeeper (Jan 1, 2021)

Wannabeebeekeeper said:


> No reason to treat.


Also, the hive right next to it in an apimaye double super is alive and well. I had the upper super entrance open. Can anyone tell me if they are the way to go? Especially in North Idaho.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Nancy: Great to see you post again. I have missed your input on these boards.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Wannabeebeekeeper said:


> No reason to treat.


How did you determine that?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Wannabeebeekeeper said:


> No reason to treat.


Especially if it is your intent to purchase bees every year. The Apimaye hive is a good hive with a lot of cool features. It is not the reason the bees in it are still alive.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

Sometimes they just die I have heard.
I have 3 hives. Our weather is really wonky here in MA. I can faintly hear one hive but not the other 2 hives, even when I lifted the lid of the quilt box.
I won't bother taking it apart till Spring since Maybe just maybe they are so grouped together and small that they may be alive.

Just wait till Spring and then open it to see what it looks like. I too was thinking of putting a roof and 4 posts over the hives, but more for me


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Wannabeebeekeeper said:


> No reason to treat.


If you are certain it wasn't mites or viruses (which most of the time it is), queen failure is usually the problem. Of course bees cant requeen in the winter so if the queen is poorly mated, a drone layer, old or in poor condition the hive will fail. Check the brood when inspecting the dead out.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Varroa slim to none.

No reason to treat.*

I think we have the answer. Sorry. Spend some time this winter studying varroa. Randy Oliver’s website scientificbeekeeping. com is a good place to start.

Good luck.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

I am next door to you, Northeatern WA. I do have upper entrances, but am fairly certain that your colonies did not die simply due to the entrance being blocked a short time with snow. As others have stated, in some locations, the hives are completely buried under snow for a good length of time, and the bees survive.

You are going to hear from lots of folks that Varroa is the most likely cause of your loss. With the information given, I agree that is the most reasonable conclusion. If you let us know what actions you took to verify and when, we might be able to either firm that up or eliminate that as the cause. Pictures of the combs might help as well.

The fact that there is a surviving (so far) colony next to it doesn't add any particular light to why this colony died.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Tigger19687 said:


> Just wait till Spring and then open it to see what it looks like. I too was thinking of putting a roof and 4 posts over the hives, but more for me


Don't wait, the sooner you clean up dead hives the better. If you dont brush and knock out most of the dead bees they get damp, moldy, and begin to decay.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

Regarding moisture in the hives, there will be all kinds of thoughts on that. I use an upper entrance, some don't. I am not sure it matters much.

The primary source of moisture in the hives is from the respiration of the bees themselves. Putting a roof over the hives lkely would not make much difference in that regard. The best way to reduce moisture (imho) is insulation on top, which reduces condensation that drips down in the center of the hive.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

squarepeg said:


> Being completey buried in snow keep the outside temp of the hive right at 32 degrees, and this actually makes it easier for the hive to keep warm compared to having air at sub freezing temps and or 'wind chill' in play.
> 
> jmho, but my recommendation is entrance facing south and east and getting sun during the day, a good wind break to the north and west, top only insulation, and a little venting at the top.


Good advice.


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## Murdock (Jun 16, 2013)

LOCATION drives a lot of beekeeping choices/activities and if you have bees in the lower 48... you have mites. Cold by it self does not kill bees BUT wet bees will freeze to death. Snow covering hives probably did not kill them but rather insulated...think SNOW CAVES and survival. Humidity is produced in the hive by bee activity and if they get wet they may freeze. Jeff Horchett (sp) @ St. Joseph's Abbey in Louisiana has a pole building with hives underneath and facing out. It's for his comfort (shade/rain) not the bees, so yes you can do that. There are several countries in the old Soviet bloc where beekeepers have hives in the sides of enclosed sheds and they work the hives from inside the shed. The bees will adapt to most anything you do to/for them... or they will abscond or die. Just TRY treating a hive for mites on a regular schedule and compare it with others.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

MJC417 said:


> Don't wait, the sooner you clean up dead hives the better. If you dont brush and knock out most of the dead bees they get damp, moldy, and begin to decay.


For me I didn't hear anything, I don't know for a fact they are dead. And IF they are still alive I don't want to rip apart the outer covering and propolis to find bees not too happy and then I have to ro-do all I did in the beginning. 1 of the hives is 5 boxes high the other is 4, this includes the quilt box.
Each to their own and I see what you are saying. But how many times do they die over winter and are not opened till 2-4 months later?


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## Wannabeebeekeeper (Jan 1, 2021)

beemandan said:


> *Varroa slim to none.
> 
> No reason to treat.*
> 
> ...


So I opened that hive a week ago to place a suger block and they were alive and well. I might be wrong but I don’t think mites caused an entire hive to die from healthy and clustered in a couple days. It is looking more like moisture in the hive as the hundreds of dead bees on the bottom board are wet. I’m new to beekeeping but these wooden old school langstroth hives seem like they are a Volkswagon and the apimaye. Are a Cadillac. It seems like they are not able to ventilate the moisture with an entrance reducer and no top vent other than the inner cover seem. The wooden old school hive right next to this one was not nearly established as they were package bees with the same short season as my other hives. They have only filled out 4 frames. They are alive and well but did not have the entrance reducer. I think the fact that the other hive had an entrance reducer and then even that small air vent was clogged with snow caused the moisture buildup inside, leading to their deaths.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

What kind of cover, quilt box, plain inner cover etc. If the surface above the bees is below the dew point it will drip. The colony with higher population gives off more moisture so that is not conclusive.

It seems like you are dancing around answering the question of mite counts or treatments. Again the larger colony is often the one to collapse.

I had one occasion to suspect suffocation from snowed in with no upper entrance but it was unusual conditions of colonies being in snow cones , drifting, then heavy wet snow and rain followed by a severe temp drop. Not snowed in - *iced in*! for three days. Usual snow conditions allow enough air exchange and snowed under is common and not a problem. There were no bees in combs, everything down on the bottom board. No signs of mite frasse and I already knew that I had treated till near zero mite count on sticky boards previous Oct. This was in March.

Previous to this, barring one season with confirmed EFB I had 8 or so winters with no losses on 5 to 12 colonies so this seemed like a one off.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I’m not trying to be mean spirited.

I believe that if you asked serious, long term beekeepers what is the single biggest threat to bees, the vast majority would say varroa…..Roland excluded.

Varroa are a tax on the hive year round. In the spring and summer when the average life expectancy of a bee is around 6 weeks and the hive is producing 1000 to 2000 replacement bees every day….no big deal. When they cut back brood production in the fall and focus on making winter bees….bees that must be especially durable to live for months and endure the rigors of winter….that varroa parasitism is a monumental problem. You refer to your bees as being healthy but they surely weren’t. Their ability to survive the cold and wet and everything else is greatly reduced.

I will again suggest that you spend some time this winter studying the parasite and especially focus on the relationship between its life cycle and the life cycle of your bees. I truly believe that once you understand that relationship, you will be much better able to overwinter your bees season after season.

Good luck.


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## Wannabeebeekeeper (Jan 1, 2021)

crofter said:


> What kind of cover, quilt box, plain inner cover etc. If the surface above the bees is below the dew point it will drip. The colony with higher population gives off more moisture so that is not conclusive.
> 
> It seems like you are dancing around answering the question of mite counts or treatments. Again the larger colony is often the one to collapse.
> 
> ...


No dancing, I answered several times, little to none on the mites. Looks like the blocked entrance reducer took away the only ventilation they had. Then the moisture buildup inside. Seems everyone on this blog is obsessed with varroa.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

As to me, who asked the first question about varroa, my intent was to help you get to what you wanted, the reason why your hive died.

In your first post there was not enough information given to be able to determine that, so I asked some questions about varroa to try to get enough information so we can rule varroa in, or out. If good information was given and varroa could be ruled out, we could have moved to other less likely causes such as dampness, etc.

However it became clear you were not prepared to consider varroa as a cause and gave answers that were meaningless, which is why more people commented on varroa. You may be unaware that Beesource especially a few years back, was full of posts by people who were not able to understand why their bees died. But they would not consider varroa as a cause, usually because they did not see any, or, because last time they looked the hive seemed healthy but next time it was dead, and they thought that was too quick to be varroa related.

In the majority of these cases it was in fact varroa that resulted in the death of the hive. If the person concerned was not willing to accept that, they will just continue doing the same thing, and losing hives for the same reasons. 

That is why people seem to you to be "obsessed with varroa". They are mostly people with a lot of experience, and know how hard it is for a newby to figure this stuff out, and are attempting to help. Entirely over to you wether to accept the help or not, but the attempt was made.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

When a new beekeeper comes to a forum like this and poses a question, we all do our very best to provide answers based on our cumulative years of experience. We do not all necessarily agree, but for the most part we have all seen this exact scenario play out countless times before. Varroa are responsible for the vast majority of winter hive deaths, even among those that do attempt to treat. Before searching for the 1/100 non-varroa related cause, you must first eliminate the 99/100 chance that it WAS varroa. The moisture you see in the hive may or may not have anything to do with the bees being dead. There are plenty of beeks that do not believe in providing upper ventilation of any kind, and yet their bees live. There are those of us that believe in screened bottoms and drafty hives, and again, the bees live. Some insulate, some do not, the bees live. But when it comes to treating or not, the average TF beekeeper loses approximately 50% of their hives every year compared to an average of 35% losses for those that attempt/claim to treat, and 10% losses for those that treat effectively.

By all means get another Apimaye hive, I like them. But if you do not understand the true reason your bees died, and do nothing about it, in a year or so you will have nothing but two expensive pieces of plastic and maybe a handful of dead bees.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

Wannabeebeekeeper said:


> Seems everyone on this blog is obsessed with varroa.


It is called varroa destructor for a reason, and we respect it for a reason. Unmanaged, it will destroy your colonies, and the crash typically looks exactly like what you have described. I'm sorry that seems offensive to you.

Best wishes to you in the new year.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Seems everyone on this blog is obsessed with varroa.*

There might be a hint in that. You get a beekeeper like oldtimer who has been keeping bees professionally for decades and you might learn something from him. And the others who have taken their time to give you good advice and information from lessons that they painfully learned….you really would be well served to listen.

Again…only wishing you success.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Wannabeebeekeeper said:


> Thanks for all the replies. Yes, they are all dead. Varroa, slim to none. Our winter has been very mild with most nighttime lows in the 30’s. No upper entrance. The more I read the more it seems an upper entrance is necessary for ventilation to prevent moisture buildup. My intention this summer was to build a shelter over them to just keep all the rain and snow off of them. Too many other projects and simply couldn’t get to it before the weather changed. This colony was able to completely fill out both supers even though we had an extremely short season. It did not stop raining and being cold and gloomy until July 1st. Then we got our 1st snow early in October to shut off all nectar flow. I would love the community opinions on building shelter over the hives, upper entrance for ventilation, weather or not I should have had an entrance reducer, and finally Apimaye plastic hives. Thank you all for your input. Tim.


Me thinks you are on the wrong path.
the Varroa slim to none , what was your counts in Aug, sept , oct ?
what treatment did you use?

bees for 100,000 years did not have plastic hives so IMO not a show stopper.
Many winter with no upper entrance.
did you take the both full supers? What did the hive weight after taking the honey?

GG


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

Wannabeebeekeeper said:


> My strongest colony just died after 48hrs of snow in north Idaho. 2 deep 10 frame supers. The entrance was covered in snow. I had an entrance reducer on made of wood. There is no top entrance. The supers are chock full of honey so they didn’t starve. Did I let my bees suffocate under the snow? Should I have had an upper entrance? Newbie here and my heart is broken.


Your bees may have suffocated. With only 1 entrance another possibility is that condensation built up on the lid and cold water from condensation dripped onto the bees and they froze. Look for black areas on the lid.


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## Meghues (Jan 5, 2016)

I’m afraid to post this and admit to really lousy beekeeping, but, in the interests of adding more data, here I go: here in the rainy Pacific Northwest, it’s really important to keep water from getting INTO the hive, as well as letting condensation get OUT. We all know that bees and water don’t mix, especially in winter. 

Two winters ago, and now again this year, I discovered a hive that had accumulated a ton of water. When I tilted these hives up, they ran water out like from a bucket. This year’s was a 5 frame nuc and it had at least a gallon in it, the previous one was a 3-high 8 frame medium with a similarly astonishing quantity. The combs had to be deeply underwater, especially in the nuc.

I had neglected to prop them up on a slant earlier. And the covers were leaky. my bad, I know.

it’s too early to tell about this year’s nuc, but the previous hive came through just fine, in fact, with a new queen last year it’s still buzzing. The nuc is looking fine from the outside, the bees were out and about today, but who knows at this point?

My point being that those bees should have died from water and didn’t. If they HAD died, I surely would have blamed the water. But if I’d been stupid enough to have several hives at once under water and some lived and some died, then what do I blame? 

I do have to OAV my many hives about 27 times from fall until January to get the mites gone. It seems like every year takes more mite vigilance.

yours in complexity,
megan


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## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)

I'll just also add this excellent video from Meghan Milbrath of Michigan State University called, "Why Did My Bees Die", which echoes many of the observations shared by many on the thread - 






Kevin


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

George's PINK PAGES - Upper Entrances



*George Imirie's PINK PAGES
Upper Entrances*
Wow, you are talking my language when you mention UPPER ENTRANCE. I think every colony in the world should have an upper entrance 365 days of the year. I am in my 65th year of beekeeping, spending much of the last 20 years teaching beekeeping all over the world FREE OF CHARGE; and still do it in the U.S. in spite of being disabled by strokes.
I hate and despise drilling holes in my supers for upper entrances as a lot of people have done. I cut a piece of wood out of the front edge of the inner cover that leaves a hole 5/16" high x 1-1/2" long into the top body, be it a super or brood body. Someone might say there is a shallow and a thick side to an inner cover and the shallow side should always be down. That is baloney! I put the thick side down so there is about 3/8" of space between the inner cover surface and the tops of frames. Bees will only build burr comb there if they are short on super space - no other reason. So they stay in that position 365 days of the year.
What are the advantages: Primarily two, and both quite simple. Talk about summertime first. Why make foraging bees enter the front door, climb up through the congested brood nest to put nectar in the supers. A foraging bee's only work is nectar gathering - it does nothing else! When it has an upper entrance (particularly if you are not using "Imirie Shims" between supers), the forager learns to leave and return through that upper entrance and not add further congestion to the brood nest. This results in more flights per day per bee and certainly tends to reduce the main cause of swarming - congestion of the brood nest!
How would you react on a cold winter night if someone poured freezing water on your bare back? When air is breathed into the lungs and than discharged out, one of the products is water vapor (clean your eye glasses by blowing your breath on them). This warm vapor goes up (everybody knows heat rises), and in the winter this warm vapor rises and contacts the cold inner cover where it liquifies into a drop of cold water. In time more drops of cold water accumulate and finally it rains of the cluster of warm bees below, and many freeze to death. If there is an upper entrance in place, that warm rising vapor from the bees breathing has a way to escape from the hive by going out of the entrance to outside. Lastly, sometimes (but not very often) the front entrance of a colony is covered by snow or sleet and the weather suddenly warms to flight weather for an hour or so. But the bees are penned inside by several inches of snow and sleet, which hasn't melted yet. If there was an upper entrance, the bees can fly on a cleansing flight.
I have used Upper entrances on my 100+ colonies for at least 50 years, and just think everybody would be wiser if they used upper entrances too.
George Imirie
Certified EAS Master Beekeeper
Read every article by Geoge Imirie: George's PINK PAGES - Upper Entrances


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