# What Defines a Langstroth Hive?



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Many hives around the world are similar in form and function to Langstroth hives with Hoffman frames. What defines Langstroth? What makes a Lang a Lang?

They don't have anything special or unique except specific measurements. Am I correct?

Is it the width, length, number of frames, size of frames, combination of factors? 

Tell me what you think.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Inside, length, width, movable frames, with proper bee space. A standardized hive. cchoganjr


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Since (as I understand it) Langstroth originated the idea of bee space and invented movable frames I would think that any hive that uses those elements would be a Langstroth hive even if it isn't the same size as what we use in the U.S.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

It doesn't really matter what we _think._ The Langstroth Hive is a ten-frame, removable frame hive of the dimensions established by Langstroth. The interior consists of rectangular, suspended, moveable frames that established the bee space we're familiar with. The boxes are of a uniform size (length and width) capable of being stacked one upon another. Variations enter in with extracting supers of Illinois, Medium, or Shallow depth. cf: _The Hive and the Honey Bee_ and _The ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture._
Regards,
Steven


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

StevenG said:


> The Langstroth Hive is a ten-frame, removable frame hive of the dimensions established by Langstroth.


The only unique part is the measurements.



StevenG said:


> The interior consists of rectangular, suspended, moveable frames that established the bee space we're familiar with.


Nothing unique here.



StevenG said:


> The boxes are of a uniform size (length and width) capable of being stacked one upon another.


 Nor here.

So it's the measurements which make a Langstroth a Langstroth. How many of those measurements do I have to mess with before I don't have a Langstroth hive any more?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Langstroth didn't develop what we call the Langstroth hive. The major woodenware companies don't call what they sell a "Langstroth" hive, only beekeepers do. Grab your Dadant catalog and look at the inside cover where they describe beehive components..They call it the "Modern Beehive", Langstroth isn't even mentioned in the description. 

Langstroth basically took a Champagne shipping crate, made some removable frames and stuck them in it and then put some bees in it and patented the whole deal. This is why a deep frame fits perfectly inside a wooden wine box today  Medium and Illinois supers aren't part of the lang hive either, they are Borrowed from the Dadant hive. Basically what we use today is a hybrid of multiple people's ideas.

Solomon:
If you are interested I can email you langstroth's Patent. It is a good read for a historical perspective.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Does that exclude all the British variations with removable frames and rectangular supers? British National, British Commercial, Smith, WBC (William Broughton Carr), Dartington Long Deep, and Beehaus


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> Does that exclude all the British variations with removable frames and rectangular supers? British National, British Commercial, Smith, WBC (William Broughton Carr), Dartington Long Deep, and Beehaus


You forgot the Rose OSB and the 14x12 hive


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> Many hives around the world are similar in form and function to Langstroth hives with Hoffman frames. What defines Langstroth? What makes a Lang a Lang?
> 
> They don't have anything special or unique except specific measurements. Am I correct?
> 
> ...


Removable frames and beespace.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

correct bee space results in removable frames so I would say beespace reguardless of the size of the hive.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

But most hives have removable frames and bee space. 

Do we only use Langstroth because we have other options like Warre and top bar?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

So why distinguiish between foundationless and Warre'?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Upon further review, we're not using Langstroth hives at all.

http://parkerfarms.biz/documents/langstroths patent.pdf

Solved that, thanks Brad.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

A real Warre' hive frames are not removable. The Real langstroth hive was foundationless... He described melting wax and dribbling it on the top bars as a guide for the bees to draw comb from.

No Problem Solomon: I couldn't ever figure out how to link the PDF to the forum.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

maybe conventional and non-conventional hives can both use langstroth technology.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Langstroth discovered the bee space, others copied it. Dadant doesn't call the Langstroth hive such because early on, CP Dadant developed his own concept, called the Dadant hive, larger than the Langstroth.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Actually, he didn't. But he did innovate it into the sorts of hives we have today.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you look at the dimensions of what C.C. Miller and G.M. Doolittle were making they are calling them Langstroths, but they are a shorter top bar than we have and Miller was using eight frame boxes. I would say as the term is currently used, it's anything that takes a standard 19" top bar frame of various depths (Langstroth only had deeps and shallows) and comes in various widths from 2 frames to 12 frames. (hives have always been available in 8 frame and 10 frame configurations as they still are today).

"The length of the top-bar is 18-5/8 inches, and 7/8 x 9/16 is rabbeted out of each end to receive the endbar."--C.C. Miller, 50 years among the bees

This is 3/8" shorter than a standard frame today.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

StevenG said:


> Langstroth discovered the bee space, others copied it. Dadant doesn't call the Langstroth hive such because early on, CP Dadant developed his own concept, called the Dadant hive, larger than the Langstroth.


Actually Francis Huber was working with bee space in the 1780s when he developed his leafbook hive. The way the hive opened if he violated beespace he would not be able to get into it... He didn't call it "beespace" though. Naming it is what Langstroth is credited with. 

Many people were making hives with removable frames about the same time as Langstroth... Langstroth was the first to patent the idea. It is believed that a removable frame was not what his goal was though. He was actually trying to block waxmoths from getting into the comb which is why he put solid endbars on his top bars. The frame being removable from the hive was a secondary benefit.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> Upon further review, we're not using Langstroth hives at all. -Solomon Parker


I hear the term used a lot. It makes sense to me, it fits, I immediately conjure up a mental image of a "Langstroth hive," no matter whether it follows Langstroth's patent to a "t" or not, and it is commonly used. Why sweat the details of just how far something must go before it is or isn't a "Langstroth hive?"

If we don't use the term "Langstroth hive," what term should we use to designate the common style of hives available in 8- or 10-frame widths or some other variant of frame numbers with similar sorts of proportions and build styles? All of the major manufacturers build to similar specifications right now, most other beekeepers do as well, and the style is overwhelmingly used throughout the industry.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Kieck said:


> I hear the term used a lot. It makes sense to me, it fits, I immediately conjure up a mental image of a "Langstroth hive," no matter whether it follows Langstroth's patent to a "t" or not,


But it's not just kinda not like modern hives. Other than the frames, it's nothing like modern hives. It might as well be a German hive. You wouldn't call a Tundra a Ford just because it's a pickup.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> ... Other than the frames, ... . -Solomon Parker


You may have just defined how "Langstroth" hives can be recognized.

In parts of this country, all soft drinks are called, "Cokes," although a Pepsi certainly isn't the same brand as a "Coke." And virtually all facial tissue gets called, "Kleenex," despite the brand name. To go a step further, "ketchup" at one time named a range of flavored sauces, while now it is commonly used to identify a tomato-based sauce.

And modern "pickups" are very little like original "pickups." The mental image associated with the term changes, the term remains in widespread useage, and it still works, I think. What other term would you propose for the fairly standardized hives used widely by beekeepers?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'm searching for answers, not providing them.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that is unique to a Langstroth hive is the measurements of the frames. In fact, if I use PF-120's in one of my Parker Cube Hives (tm) there's nothing uniquely Langstroth about it. Not a thing.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

To me, I have a clear mental image that springs to mind when I hear the term "Langstroth hive." Defining it beyond that takes a bit more effort, but I think all "Langstroth" hives have certain elements that characterize them.

1) Elements spaced according to "bee space" within the hive.

2) Moveable frames, designed to hang from frame rests. Depth of these frames will vary. Other dimensions could vary, too, in my opinion. For example, if you built a 3/4-scale version of the same system, I would still refer to it as a "Langstroth hive."

3) Modularity. The ability to add or remove components in the hive.

4) Vertical design for stacking.

More elements may play into it. To me, all of these are necessary to make a hive a "Langstroth." If, for example, a hive used the bee space and the same style frames, but was designed to add supers horizontally (at one end, rather than above the brood nest), that hive would not be a "Langstroth hive."

From your example, PF-120s are variants of the frames that hang from tabs in boxes, they still make used of bee space, they are components of a modular system, and Parker Cube Hives (assuming they would stacked) would still be variants on the general design that composes "Langstroth hives."


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Solomon

What is your plan for the cube? Do you plan to manage it in a traditional US fashion and super up all summer or go the European route and only use one super and pull honey as needed? 

Your boxes are all mediums right? So it would be more closely related to the Dadant being that the frames match his and it is square.. Even without the PF-120s nothing in it would be of Langstroth decent. 

I think we need less standardization... we are one of the few developed countries that only has one hive commercially available. And it is not because it was the perfect hive. 

I like choices and our bee industry is ideally set up for multiple hive styles. Great Britain doesn't have package production, all bee sales are in a nucleus form, and yet they have 6 commercially produced hive types.. They choose their hive and then have to find a nuc supplier with matching frame size... we can buy a package and shake it into what ever style hive we like.... We should have at least a dozen hive styles to choose from.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> As far as I can tell, the only thing that is unique to a Langstroth hive is the measurements of the frames. In fact, if I use PF-120's in one of my Parker Cube Hives (tm) there's nothing uniquely Langstroth about it. -Solomon Parker


I did just a little reading on some of the early plans and designs. I think you nailed it here: the width of the frame is apparently a critical aspect of the "Langstroth hive." I should add to my earlier list, "5) Top bars of frames 19 inches long, and bottom bars 17.75 inches long."

Dadant apparently pushed for a smaller dimension in this respect. He seemed to prefer square, but not with the frame width that Langstroth used. He and Blatt later seemed to collaborate on dimensions to come up with "Dadant" hive bodies after Dadant accepted the widespread popularity of Langstroth's frame width. Those "Dadant" bodies are also called "Langstroth Jumbos" at times.

Personally, I'm glad as much equipment is interchangeable as is right now in this country. That doesn't mean better designs might not exist, but interchangeable parts simplifies life greatly. Already some beekeepers seem to have trouble finding suppliers with medium-framed nucs. Imagine if five other styles with variations on those styles existed as well.

I suspect the migratory nature of most commercial beekeeping in this country helped defined and maintain standard dimensions, too.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Kieck said:


> I suspect the migratory nature of most commercial beekeeping in this country helped define and maintain standard dimensions, too.


I don't know when dimensions became standard, but I believe it happened quite a while earlier than modern commercial migratory beekeeping. The only thing we commercial migratory beekeepers have standardized in the last 20 years is 4-way pallets which are built to carry standard sized supers, mostly 10 framers.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

bluegrass said:


> What is your plan for the cube? Do you plan to manage it in a traditional US fashion and super up all summer or go the European route and only use one super and pull honey as needed?


Actually, I don't do either of those. I guess I do the Lusby method. All boxes are on the hive year 'round. I removed empty ones this past fall so I could feed straight sugar, but generally, they all stay on there. Dee used five so I figured that was good enough for me. I have used between four and six depending on the hive and the year and the availability. A 12-14 frame medium is approximately equal to slightly less than the comb area of a deep. The cube comes from the fact that three medium square boxes makes a cube. That would be the minimum size of the hive for stores, approximately three deeps.




bluegrass said:


> Your boxes are all mediums right? So it would be more closely related to the Dadant being that the frames match his and it is square.. Even without the PF-120s nothing in it would be of Langstroth decent.


The Cube is all mediums. I built a deep for the transition, but it will eventually be cut down.




bluegrass said:


> We should have at least a dozen hive styles to choose from.


Well, I don't know about that. Depending on how this works out, it may tell me that the optimal size of a hive is less than 19 inches long. However, I do think square is a good way to go. It is more efficient in construction for sure. I just cut some lids out from plywood this afternoon.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> I don't know when dimensions became standard, but I believe it happened quite a while earlier than modern commercial migratory beekeeping. -sqkcrk


I realize the dimensions existed before migratory beekeeping, but obviously variants on hives were in existence, too. Dadant dimensions were different (more like 18-inch wide frames). Do-it-yourselfers probably built a range of sizes (just like now). Other manufacturers probably had their own styles and versions.

Without migratory beekeeping, I suspect that regions would have adopted different hive plans. According to this thread, Great Britain is home to at least half a dozen designs of hives, maybe with variants on each of those. The general acceptance of a single style of hive here was likely driven or at least carried with the shift to commercial beekeeping.

Just as one example, think of those gabled roofs that are sold for decorative beehives. Those would not load well if you planned to stack hives. The same is true of Kenyan top-bar hives. Stacking and hauling them would be far more difficult, I think.


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

Solomon Parker said:


> Many hives around the world are similar in form and function to Langstroth hives with Hoffman frames. What defines Langstroth? What makes a Lang a Lang?
> They don't have anything special or unique except specific measurements. Am I correct?


*You were looking for a definition?* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langstroth_hive
*From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*

*The Langstroth bee hive, patented in October 1852*, is the standard beehive used in many parts of the world for beekeeping. The advantage of this hive is that the bees build honeycomb into frames, which can be moved with ease. The frames are designed to prevent bees from attaching honeycombs where they would either connect adjacent frames, or connect frames to the walls of the hive. The movable frames allow the beekeeper to manage the bees in a way which was formerly impossible.

*Langstroth hive frames * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Beekeeping_langstroth_hive_frame.jpg

The Langstroth bee hive is made up from top to bottom of:

*** telescoping cover or migratory cover
*** inner cover
*** one or more hive bodies or honey supers made of wood, polystyrene, or other plastic
*** (optional) queen excluder between brood box and honey supers
*** eight to ten frames, made of wood or plastic, per hive body or honey super
*** (optional) foundation made of wax and wires or plastic
*** bottom board, with optional entrance reducer

*The word standard implies that everything is interchangeable. Henry Ford really made interchangeable parts famous with his assembly line.*


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Yet the dimensions used today are not the same as Langstroth used, nor that same as quoted in many of the old beekeeping books. So they are more standard today, but all of those people believed they were using Langstroth hives...


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## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

Yep, I believe our hives today are the best they have been in history. We are lucky we can take frames, supers, covers from one hive and use them in another. I may decide to go to 8 frame from 10 frame. I have always used 10 frame. I can use my standard frames in the 8 frame hives, so it saves me money. I can just put the 10 frame boxes away.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Langstroth's patent was for beespace. He challenged and won any time someone commercialized a bee hive that was designed to use beespace. It did not matter if the hive was square or rectangular or octagonal, if it used beespace it violated his patent. Does that mean all bee hives designed to use beespace are Langstroth hives?

Boxes made to "Langstroth" dimensions are commonly used around the world. The dimensions are reasonably standard, but they are inherently flawed given that 9 5/8 depth of the box and 9 1/8 inch deep frames mean there is 1/2 inch gap between the frames in stacked boxes. Also, do they use top beespace? or bottom bee space? Mann Lake's PF-120 frames are designed with lugs on the ends of the frames that are too thick to fit properly in a standard 5/8 inch deep rabbett and maintain a top beespace.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Bee space is a concept that was allowed to be patented. 
It's sort of like band-aids all being called band-aids no mater what company makes them. 
How many companies manufacture "Langstroth" hives?


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