# Table saw shopping blues



## dcwilliams (Dec 12, 2004)

I would look at the dewalt portable table saw. Its a nice unit. 

Chris


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Easy!

Go here:
http://www.sears.com/sr/craftsman/craftsman_club/cr_cc_main.jsp?vertical=SEARS

Click on "See Our Hot Buys"

Buy a "10 in. Table Saw with Dust Collection System and Casters" for $179.99

Its really a decent saw, and the good thing
about Sears is that you can use it for a week,
and if you don't like it, get every penny back.

People laugh at me about Sears tools until I show
them my 55 year-old ratchet wrench, still my
favorite. My grandfather bought it, and I still
use it. It it ever breaks, they will fix it, no
questions asked.

Craftsman club is free to join, and they do
offer some real deals to "members" that are
never mentioned to the general public.


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

ROYBI, got mine from Home Depot, makes a good table saw, both portable and permenent. I've got one and I like the features.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

craftsman=crapsman! not like the old ones!! Roybi not much better...get the dewalt or if it was me I would get a belt driven..,much better than a direct drive. You can get a grizzly (grizzly.com) for not much more...pretty good tools. I just bought a Jet with cast iron top/wings and nice fence for $400 on Ebay incl wheels(cost 900 new). Sold my OLD craftsman for 275 and there is no comparison in the saws!


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Most (if not all) entry level small saws are made in China. Not a put down, but a reality. DeWalt is owned by Black and Decker and its quality has suffered recently as well. It is still a good saw mind you........ just not built like they were only a few years ago.

Try making your old Craftsman work. I have one as well and I made a stand with castors and it rolls around like a dream. The larger table is always nice.

I also have an old (50's) ShopMaster made in Mpls Minn. What a fantastic small saw!! Check ebay for a high quality old timer before spending more money on a cheap import.......

In woodworking tools, old is ofter better.


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## SageBrush (Jun 18, 2004)

The Dewalt direct drive saw is not much for the money, it should cost less for what you get. It all depends on the performance you expect. I've never found Craftsman worth messing with IMO. They are a pain to adjust, weaker than other direct drives, very cheap/light construction. But the price is very cheap too. 

Make sure you get a real 15 amp saw, not a 10 or 12 amp motor that I found on the largest Craftsman saws. I find the 110 volt saws to be weak when ripping, the true 15 amp motors that drive via a belt last much longer and can be replaced easy.

Good saws cost money. But, my favorite cheap saw is the Delta Shop Master line, around $300. The fence is not bad and the controls actually work ok. You can change the blade angle with out the usual cheap saw fight. Make sure you like the blade controls. Most of the "Home Owner" saws are very light duty and hard to use when adjusting. That cheap direct drive Delta has lasted over a year for us, but we don't push it real hard. It will get hot ripping one inch boards and 3/4 ply. You must pace the direct drive saws if you want them to last. The Delta Shop Master has over 40 hives worth of cutting. Made 12 hive top feeders. Plus over 20 plywood Nucs. This saw really needs a 6" dado blade. My 8" works it too much.

Consider one that comes with its own stand. I've used table top saws in the past and will always recommend a contractor style if you need to move it often.

You may also consider a used commercial radial arm saw thats belt driven. My Dad has a very old Magna Shop Smith that works great. Very solid and strong. Its been used for many years and will dado great. You can break it down for moving it, I perfer to leave it together though. Its not super heavy. But, its not light either.  

Lowes had the best prices on Delta last time I looked. I bought a display model for over $100 off their normal price which is well below retail.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

My old Makita has been good.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

keep the old saw you have. Put a decent mobile base under it so you can move it without lifting. Add a decent fence.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I bought the DeWalt table saw myself. It has an aluminum top, plastic base, and metal folding stand. However, it costs $500. I did not like any of the cheaper ones out there. For me, the cost is worth having a very precise saw that is easy for one person to move around. I'd have to disagree with Jim on Craftsman. Their power tools are nothing I would use on my jobs. Even their socket wrench has become cheap compared to years ago.

- Barry . . . the other one.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Craftsman tools used to be very good for the money. The older vintage saws are not too bad.

I am done buying Craftsman hand tools though. The rachets have gone down hill......


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>- Barry . . . the other one. 

That should be "Barry . . . The ONE"

I also think you you should have Queen Bee as your title.

I have an early 80's Craftsman 10" saw that has built one house and a myrad of projects in the last twenty years, it's been great. I have no complaints, but it is heavy and not what the other Barry needs. I have also had good luck with the battery opperated (18.6) drills and saws all.


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

The Skil brand portable was the best one we found last year about this time at Lowes. I never see this saw except around christmas and a month or so after. It is in the $200 range. Most of the portables fences are not self squaring even though they say they are. Clamp it and then push on the fence a bit and see how much it moves. All the portable craftsman were junk. Craftsman does still make a great table saw in the shop models. The dewalt I would say is equal to if not a bit better but the price difference was not worth it. If you can find the black and decker table saw buy it(I don't know if they still make it). It is the same as the dewalt with a bit smaller motor and made a different color.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

You all have been great. Again. I suppose my first step is to resurrect the Craftsman monster. It's been neglected and I feel badly about that, but I think it's still serviceable. Unmoveable, but probably serviceable. The base and writing style lead me to think it's from the late 50's or early 60's. I'll have to scrounge around and find numbers to see if replacement parts are available. Doesn't look like there were ever any safety devices on it. Thanks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I got a cheap little roybi. If you want to do rabbet joints by just cutting from two sides, it works great. The only rabbet blade that fits it is one of those off center ones and it only cuts 5/8" grooves. It kinda wish it would cut 3/4". But it's small and light and cheap and I can haul it out in the yard to use it and put it back in the garage when I'm done.


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## Todd Zeiner (Jun 15, 2004)

I too, have to disagree with Jim F(sorry Jim)about Craftsman. The power tools they sell now are not worth bring home from the store. I have a "portable" table saw(craftsman) It works well, but it is too light weight. It wants to tip when you are pushing the wood into the blade. I almost tipped it over one day, while it was on!! My Delta contractor saw on a moble base is a dream to use. I wouldn't have anything else.


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

I still like my Roybi


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## Lively Bee's (Dec 9, 2004)

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&fromAuto=YES&bidsite=CRAFT&pid=00921804000
I have this craftsman and I built all of my bee equiptment with it. If I had to do it again I would buy the same saw.

I run this dado 
http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=123863-000061089-SD208


24 deeps 
12 mid'
12 tops 
12 sbb
12 inner covers
I rip all of my wood down to size and buy 2x3 and rip them down inorder to make my sbb sides and my top covers.


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## Kurt Bower (Aug 28, 2002)

I have used a craftsman for several years with few complaints. I plan on upgrading and will consider a Bosch next time.
http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?prod_id=167224&cm_mmc=1hd.com2froogle-_-product_feed-_-D25X-_-167224
This one has the power to not get bogged down when ripping a 2X4. You will become frustrated quickly if you buy something that overheats or "just cant cut it".


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Rebuild the Old Craftsman for sure. A base with castors is wonderful.

I have my vintage Craftsman set up with a Oldham Dado and my vintage ShopMaster set up to cross cut.

To get a table saw of the same quality as my 50's Craftsman I would have to spend $500.00 bucks or more. I paid $50.00 at auction 5 years ago.


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## kamerrill (Sep 17, 2003)

Craftsman tools used to be excellent when Emerson made them. Many of their tools (e.g., jointers) were made by US companies like King Seeley. Now Craftsman is almost all imported from companies like Yung Li Hsing Electric Works CO., LTD ("Elephant") based in Taiwan. Emerson now makes a lot of the Rigid line for Home Depot.

My (almost) entire woodshop is from Grizzly. They are the best of the oversees importers in my opinion and give a very fair price on bomber tools. Their quality control is very good. My 3hp cabinet saw is really sweet!
check out...
www.grizzly.com


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Hi all
Agree with most of what has been said. If you have the room go with a Grizzly, best for the money. But I think you should rebuild your old Craftsman and put a mobile base on it. What is wrong with it? 

One more option: Go to a real tool store (not a big box store) and see what they have used. I bought an old Delta Contractor's saw with two cast iron wings. Over the years I have upgraded the motor, replaced the belt, added dust collection, added an Incra fence with router table extension, and I still can't justify replacing it! Cost me $150.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

When looking for a portable table saw pay close attention to the size dado you can use. (If you want to use a dado to make rabbet joints for your boxes.) Many of the small portable saws WILL NOT allow you to cut 3/4" (or more) with a dado blade. They will allow you to do cuts up to 1/2in and maybe up to 5/8in. I got an old Craftsman belt driven full size saw that will do everything I need. I just had to refinish the table surface. You can use the small portable saw as MB said and cut from two sides but I never could get the precision that I get from using the dado. I would love to have a new saw but this saw does what I need for now. Got too much other bee stuff to buy....









Dan


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

> ...were made by US companies like King Seeley





> But I think you should rebuild your old Craftsman and put a mobile base on it. What is wrong with it?


Well, this thing is rapidly getting out of control. I chased down a copy of the "Operating Instructions And Parts List For Floor Model Saw - Model Number 103.27270". Seems like the prefix 103 indeed indicates that it was built by King Seeley (a subsidiary of General Motors?) for Sears. It's a 1950's vintage machine, but I don't have an exact date. The parts list even has the 4 different sizes of Allen wrenches you need to put it together available for 15 cents each if that gives you an idea of the saws age. If anyone is interested, here's the link to a pdf file of the manual and tons of other goodies

http://files.owwm.com/PDF/Craftsman/103-27270.pdf

So anyway, I started cleaning the thing up. Basically what's wrong with it is that it's been neglected. Rust, dirt, gummed up, etc. It starts up, but blows the circuit breaker so I'll leave it alone until I get everything disassembled and rebuilt. It's still a bit chilly here, so I'm moving the saw to a little building I was getting ready to rent out. Then I'll be foregoing $500/mo in rent to putter around with a $100 saw. But then when the saw is all back together I can save all the money I'd spend on buying readymade boxes, right? (My wife looked at me the same way you're probably looking at this post right now.)


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

<It starts up, but blows the circuit breaker so I'll leave it alone until I get everything disassembled and rebuilt.>

Coyote - you sure it is the saw and not your electrical circuits? most saws will pull quite a few amps when they are just starting up. The lights will dim, the wife will come out and look at you funny... Only solution that is safe is to run a new circuit. That was what I finally did for my old Delta. Took the 220 line for the dryer, converted the motor to 220. If you can convert it (and most of the times you can) you can reduce your amps in half.

(excuse me for a moment while I go order a 20 inch Grizzly planer. I will be saving lots of money with it  ... I have some big pieces of stock that are too wide to fit in my little 12 inch planer ...  )


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

> Coyote - you sure it is the saw and not your electrical circuits?


Well, that's another story. One of my sons took welding classes in high school, and nothing would do except having a "real" welder in the carport instead of the little crackerboxes he was trying to use. So I spent the bucks to run 220 out there which involved putting new service to the house also. He's been away at college for 3 years and I've been walking around a nice Miller welder that I don't know how to use. There was also a cutting setup sitting idle but I took the gauges off and hauled the full tanks out to a buddy's place so he could burn the gas and I could take the tanks back. Plenty of amps out there.


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## Lew Best (Jan 8, 2005)

I'd get the motor checked at a motor shop; bad bearings can cause this as well as a bad centrifugal switch inside the motor or a bad start capacitor (does it have a housing on the outside of the motor that would hold a cylinder shaped object a couple or 3 inches long & an inch or inch and a half in diameter?) that would be a start capacitor; always externally mounted that i've seen. unless the windings are shorted (would probably be able to smell them) the motor's probably economically feasible to repair & much better motor than the new imported junk that most places sell nowadays

Lew


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

The other thing it could be is misalignment of the fence. If it isn't paralell to the blade, it makes the motor work too hard. A 1 1/2 horse motor and properly aligned blade / fence should cut through most anything if the blade is sharp.

But Lew is probably right. If the start up capacitor is shot it will blow the circuit at start up.


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

Just a thought.
I received a real old radial arm saw that sat for years. I had a very simular problem. Motor would turn on, start to spin and then pop the breaker.
Long story short. It turned out to be the power cord to the motor. I replaced it with a heavier guage wire and problem went away.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

> (does it have a housing on the outside of the motor that would hold a cylinder shaped object a couple or 3 inches long & an inch or inch and a half in diameter?)


It does have a capacitor on it.



> ...misalignment of the fence


I'll certainly check that when I reassemble everything. Interestingly, the manual I got off the internet is very detailed in it's descriptions of how to assemble, align, oil, test, etc. everything on the tool. And it's written in remarkably beautiful English compared to the illiterate mumbo-jumbo typical of today.



> ...turned out to be the power cord


You're probably right. The cord looks a bit light for the job. I also noticed that the saw has a dual pulley setup for using two V-belts instead of only one. It only came with one, so that probably doesn't help.


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## Jerry C (Feb 7, 2004)

You might want to check what the motor is wired for. If it is convertible 110/220 I have seen this happen when set for 220 volts but trying to run it on 110 and yes I have seen a 110 v power plug being used for 220 v. I like old machines, my Craftsman table saw (1993) was built in Kentucky but the 6 inch joiner I bought from Sears 2 years ago was built in China. Joiner seems to work OK but it is hard to operate because I need one hand to hold my nose while using it.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Starting cap's are cheap....... $7 to $10. 

Your saw looks identical to mine but mine is a table top version mounted on wheeled base.

I took the motor to the local guy here and had it gone through (new brushs, dressed the armature, etc). I also installed a heavy duty short cord.

Definatly have it on its own dedicated circuit.

Nice Saw!! Big Bucks to buy something of comparable quality.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Dave's cord story reminded me of one more story... I thought I had blown my old delta motor. Bought a new emerson motor. Still didn't work. Yes it was the switch....

took the old delta motor and put it on my bandsaw.

Don't tell my wife...


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## KyBee (Mar 1, 2005)

Hi Coyote:

You've had plenty of good advice already, but my husband and I have just gone through this table saw thing as well. We have a 150-year old house we're restoring, and that old wood eats power tools. So we buy the best contractor-grade tools we can afford. That way we only buy it once if possible. Usually it's DeWalt or now, Porter Cable is our brand of choice. 

I have to say that I will not buy anything Sears makes now, and have been treated very badly by everybody in our local store all the way up to the manager when I tried to return something that was still under warranty. The quality is very low. They are riding on a century of a good reputation but in my opinion no longer deserve it. BUT your old saw is probably a gem, and I'll bet you couldn't buy that quality now for many hundreds of dollars. Sears made the BEST tools back then.

If you decide to buy a new one so you can move it around, I can not say enough good things about the Delta benchtop saws. It's not a contractor grade saw, but it's just as good as the DeWalt that fits into in its price range from what I've seen. We can't afford a bigger, better table saw now, and we can move this one from room to room as we need to, and later when he has a workshop set up elsewhere, we can buy a "real" saw--a big stationary one with a fancy fence. 

We regularly cut wide dado cuts to make shiplap boards for old-fashioned doors and this saw has done everything we need for framing and trim carpentry, and small amounts of cabinet building (you really need a wider base if you're cutting a lot of sheet goods. I can't imagine it won't meet your needs as you've described them. 

(We do have to slow down a bit when cutting 150-year-old oak, and we buy the best blades available).

Hope our experience is helpful to you.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

> Hope our experience is helpful to you.


I appreciate that, and welcome to the forums.


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

Take a look around in this site for a work centre that utilizes all your own power tools.Mine has been in service for over 10 years.So quick to change from saw to router,jigsaw whatever.

http://www.triton.net.au/front.shtml


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## nhbeekeeper (Oct 1, 2004)

coyote

clean up the craftsman and buy a new decent blade or save up and get a decent contractor table saw







the dewalt is ok but for the same money you can get a good contractor saw. 

david

check out these 2 players in the planer arena. i just got a 15" from sunhill









www.sunhillmachinery.com
www.wilkemachinery.com


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## DanZ (Mar 6, 2005)

Ditto on getting a good blade. You never realize the importance of the blade until you have a good one. I'm using Freud blades and dados right now, very good stuff.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Hi NH - the 20" Yorkcraft looks like the Grizzly I just bought, probably made in the same factory in Taiwan. Price about the same. The 20" Oliver is Sweet! Wonder what it costs? I am uncrating my 20" Grizzly tonight. Think of all the money I will be saving! (ha ha!)


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