# Suggest A Different Beginners Book.



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/com...ng-dean-stiglitz/1100315420?ean=9781615640119

small cell approach is thoroughly presented in deknow's and ramona's book.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

SquarePeg;

Thanks for the suggestion. It is a good book but it is for people who have already made the decision to go the SC way. 

Most people who graduate a beginners class that uses Delaplane's book have no idea SC even exists. The idea is a book that offers a balanced viewpoint so neither of the proponents of either side can call it one sided.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood tod. in that case i don't know of a good resource that compares and contrasts both sides. you can probably find references on randy oliver's site showing no significant benefit was found with sc, and i believe mike bush can provide you with references that show a benefit to sc.


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

I would almost bet that you cannot find a book that offers a balanced approach to small cell vs large cell. Delaplane supposedly did a study on small cell with the conclusion that SC was worthless.(my words not his)opcorn:

RadarS might can help you find something though.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sterling said:


> Delaplane * supposedly* did a study on small cell with the conclusion that SC was worthless.(my words not his)opcorn:


Supposedly? So....who actually has done a study on small cell?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> So....who actually has done a study on small cell?

Usually that is one of their grad students...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A real and comprehensive study on small cell hasn't been done, has it? Not by a University Researcher, right?


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

This is the second time for me to write this. Twenty minutes were spent writing the first response. The submit button was pushed and the website demanded that I re-enter my password. I usually make a copy of the reply but didn't this time and the website ate my response.


SquarePeg:

Pepsi abandoned the WWII generation in the late 1960's as old and set in their ways. Their marketing campaign was then aimed at the teenagers and the young where they thought the future market was. Remember " You're in the Pepsi generation" and the "I would Like To Teach the World to Sing" commercials? Apple abandoned the head on assaults against Microsoft and started to give computers to the elementary schools. The future of small cell is not converting the old large cell beekeepers, its in the young (or beginners). 

Most of the students in the beginner classes were interested in small cell when they became aware of it. The problem is most don't become aware because neither the beginners book nor the teacher mentions it. Large cell teachers don't promote small cell. A full in depth investigation is not needed. Just a brief examination of the theory to ignite the curiosity.

The Complete Idiot book would be insufficient as the association leaders would declare it as one sided and therefore discredit it. There is a need in the market for an even handed beginners book then let nature take its course.

Educational studies are suspect. My wife was a judge who awarded government grants. From what I learned of these process, this whole system of intellectual prostitution would be would be destroyed.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In my Volume I (Beginning beekeeping naturally) the term "small cell" appears only once and the term "natural cell size" occurs once and that is because you have to decide what to buy and I would recommend one of those two. The topic is not discussed until Volume II.

The Complete Idiot's guide spends six pages on the topic of cell size. All of the rest is about beekeeping.

I don't see either of these books as being about small cell. They are both about beekeeping.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What's wrong with pointing out something like "Here is this book about basic beekeeping, how to start and how to manage your bees. And here is a book which addresses the same topic but it is a great promoter of Small Cell Beekeeping. So if you want to learn to keep bees, check out this one. And if you want to learn to keep bees on Small Cell check out this one." Why would any reasonable person have a problem with that?

When I go to my local "Bee Group" with books I don't take just one and say this is the Bible of beekeeping. I go with a handful and say this one talks about this and this one talks about that and you can take home which ever one you want.

And I am impressed by what the folks I talk to have already read and are knowledgable of and about. I learn stuff from them. Just like I do on beesource. Before beesource I never gave thought to running all mediums or using small cells. I don't do either of those, yet. But I might.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

ToeOfDog said:


> This is the second time for me to write this. Twenty minutes were spent writing the first response. The submit button was pushed and the website demanded that I re-enter my password. I usually make a copy of the reply but didn't this time and the website ate my response.


Read posts #8 and #9 in this thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?307907-Depressing-Gotta-tell-ya&p=1226294#post1226294
... for a method of dealing with future similar issues.


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## msscha (Jan 4, 2014)

As Michael Bush stated, the first book that I found that discussed small cell size was The Complete Idiot's Guide. In fact, I was surprised b/c I was not expecting the discussion given the title!

One recent article (I'm very sorry -- I just checked my bee list and didn't find the article -- I'll see if I can get it tomorrow) compared "natural" cell size as it occurred in 3 feral colonies. They found cell size varied in all the hives with worker cells being smaller than drone which were smaller (usually) than honey cells. Of the colonies, one tended to have bigger cell size than is advertised as "small" cell (they found very few at the 4.9 mm mark) while the others varied, but were generally a tad bit smaller. This seems to indicate that left to their own devices, bees build cells according to whatever size they need. I don't recall if the cell size was measured relative to the size of the cavity. Maybe there is yet more secret bee math that is done to maximize number of cells given volume .


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/com...ng-dean-stiglitz/1100315420?ean=9781615640119
> 
> The "Complete Idiot" has been ordered from Amazon to see how balanced it is. They are taking their sweet time delivering it.
> 
> ...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

sterling said:


> I would almost bet that you cannot find a book that offers a balanced approach to small cell vs large cell.


Same.

I could actually write one, but it would be from my perspective, being that for mite control, small cell did not work for my bees as advertised. Someone else could write one, from their perspective, being that for them it did work as advertised.

Therein the dichotomy.


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## kanikka (Feb 16, 2015)

"On the other hand, Davidsson (1992) stated that her “results do not indicate that the reproduction of mites was substantially influenced by cell size on worker bee brood.” Taylor (2005) reached a similar conclusion." taken from http://scientificbeekeeping.com/trial-of-honeysupercell-small-cell-combs/. References are found on the page.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

The bulk of small cell info can be found online. The beekeeping how-to book I was/am happiest with is this one http://www.wicwas.com/Honey_Bee_Biology_and_Beekeeping.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

sqkcrk said:


> What's wrong with pointing out something like "Here is this book about basic beekeeping, how to start and how to manage your bees. And here is a book which addresses the same topic but it is a great promoter of Small Cell Beekeeping. So if you want to learn to keep bees, check out this one. And if you want to learn to keep bees on Small Cell check out this one." Why would any reasonable person have a problem with that?
> 
> When I go to my local "Bee Group" with books I don't take just one and say this is the Bible of beekeeping. I go with a handful and say this one talks about this and this one talks about that and you can take home which ever one you want.


I don't think I heard/read anything about "small cell" until finding this forum, I can't recall seeing it it any of my books. But then, I had never heard of any attempts to be "treatment free" either, until finding this forum. The bulk of my learning has been under the assumption that there are always predators and prey; that bees, like just about everything else from plants to people, are subject to elements that eat/sicken/kill them and how to [best] deal with them.

I find the mention of "Bible" amusing, as certain "discussions" here that I've been reading (especially this morning) remind me very much of "discussions" on religion that I've read elsewhere.


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## msscha (Jan 4, 2014)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> I don't think I heard/read anything about "small cell" until finding this forum, I can't recall seeing it it any of my books. But then, I had never heard of any attempts to be "treatment free" either, until finding this forum. The bulk of my learning has been under the assumption that there are always predators and prey; that bees, like just about everything else from plants to people, are subject to elements that eat/sicken/kill them and how to [best] deal with them.


This was pretty much my experience as well, and I'd just about decided not to pursue beekeeping when I did an genuine web search that turned up Michael Bush's website -- prior to that, I'd been following book recommendations on my Kindle. From there, I did searches regarding "treatment free" because I didn't know how many people might actually be having success with this. That lead me to BeeWeaver and Goldstar Honeybees as package providers (there may be others). I am finding increasingly that going foundationless is becoming more common -- lots of lang users are going foundationless (used to seem like it was only TBH keepers) -- but the idea of not treating is a hard one. I feel very fortunate to count among our local beekeepers at least one extension agent with 50+ hives who does not treat. The others have told me I'm killing bees to go that route.

Now, the question seems to be one of the ecology of beekeeping -- how do TF hives fare in largely T territory? Is it easier/safer/more successful to do TF as a backyarder or as a sideliner-->commercial keeper? Is it possible for migratory beeks to ever be TF given the presence of mixed approaches in agricultural areas? Thomas Seely has recently written a book on "bee ecology", but I haven't read it -- am quite curious to see if he addresses these issues or if it's a different take on ecological issues. {I just checked -- this is a book published in 1985, and is not looking at the ecology of beekeeping, but the ecology of bees themselves, the issue of the superorganism and its place evolutionarily}


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

"I don't think I heard/read anything about "small cell" until finding this forum, I can't recall seeing it it any of my books. But then, I had never heard of any attempts to be "treatment free" either, until finding this forum. The bulk of my learning has been under the assumption that there are always predators and prey; that bees, like just about everything else from plants to people, are subject to elements that eat/sicken/kill them and how to [best] deal with them."

My point. I was a large cell beekeeper for 10 years because I was unaware there was a different way. 

See post 9


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## Cleaner762 (Jun 8, 2013)

For those who are interested, Keith Delaplane discussed small cell foundation in his column in the April 2014 issue of American Bee Journal. In short, he states that he was part of a team that set up three independent studies in which colonies with 4.9mm cells and 5.3mm cells were compared. He says they found the small cell colonies "were significantly _higher_ for mite population in brood, percentage of mite population in brood, and mites per 100 adult bees." He goes on to say "the experiment was replicated independently three times with start dates ranging between spring and fall and test periods ranging from 12-40 weeks," all with the same conclusion. He also cites a couple other independent tests that also found small cell foundation was ineffective, and says that he is unaware of any publicly accessible peer-reviewed papers that directly support small cell. In his conclusion, he writes "We cannot reject the possibility that small cell may do the job under certain conditions. But until its efficacy is more generally demonstrated, I cannot recommend it."


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

Cleaner762:

Thank you for the time and effort you expended in responding to my thread posted in the Treatment Free subforum. Your posts appears to be an advocacy for large cell as opposed to answering the question that I posted. 

I am quite familiar with the college educational research system and the Federal Grant awarding system and the intellectual prostitution it encourages. A new drug has been created in this country called "Grant Money". 

How come the Africanized bees don't have mite problems?

PS: I'm dealing with varroa at this very minute and I am down to two mites for 106 pupae pulled. Guess I'm one of the fortunate ones under "certain conditions".


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## Cleaner762 (Jun 8, 2013)

Just to be clear, I wasn't personally advocating one way or the other. I'm still on the fence myself, and am doing some of my own experiments. I just thought I would share Delaplane's findings since it sounded like others were curious.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

A new beekeeping for dummies was released a couple weeks ago. I don't know whats in it.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Lots of good posts so far. AFAIK there have been no long term studies of the effects of using SC exclusively in a hive. What studies I have looked at have lasted for one bee season and saw no benefits. So as far as I'm concerned this topic doesn't lend itself to inclusion in a bee school excepting that I think a discussion of natural beekeeping is in order.

I am intrigued by Lauri Miller's half cell of foundation in a frame resulting in a blend of natural comb and foundation defined comb. I plan to try it this summer.

Most beginner beekeeping courses are survey courses and in my neck of the woods are done over the winter and spring when access to bees is limited. (I have two classes currently running.) I don't use the Delaplane text though I have read it. In the past I used The Beekeepers Handbook though I am now using Larry Connor's Bee-Sentials. Why? Because Larry does a good job describing basic concepts and there are lots of color pictures. My goal in choosing it was to provide students with a reference that they would want to and actually use. I don't parrot the book's contents back to students when i talk but instead present them with readings to do ahead of my sessions so that they have some idea of what I'm talking about.

Dewey Caron's Book (the 2nd edition is much better than the first) Honey Bee Biology is to my mind not a beginner's book, though it certainly belongs on the serious beekeeper's bookshelf!

Is this the only way to do things? Of course not! Is SC something I want to spend any time on in a survey class? No.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

ToeOfDog said:


> How come the Africanized bees don't have mite problems?


Nothing to do with small cell but by Africanized bees frequent absconding, leaving Varroa and other parasites behind.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

ToeOfDog said:


> Keith Delaplane's beginners handbook is used by a lot of associations in their beginners classes. It fails to discuss small cell theory. Is their a more balanced beginner's book out their that one can suggest?


Our bee school uses Keith's book. We have a 9 week class, but the book is just for outside reading assignments. 9 weeks of 2 hour weekly classes sound like a lot of time, but there is a lot of stuff that just doesn't fit into the program. The only discussion of foundation or foundation-less is to mention plastic or wax. On equipment day they show how to install foundation.


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