# Minimum



## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

What is the minimum number of hives that a broker will deal with for Almond pollination?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

The question should be: "What is the minimum I can afford to ship to California?" From here in Wisconsin the truck costs just about $10000 round trip. If you get 500 on the truck, that is $20 per colony. If you only get 100 on there that truck costs you $100 per colony, so you will pretty much go in the whole after expenses." 

Most brokers talk in semiloads. 
I would imagine, if you had good bees _out_ there and a broker _really_ needed them, they _might_ take any, maybe as few as 100 or so, but that is the disaster waiting to happen that *did* happen last year. People sending bees out without a contract and hoping to place them caused chaos in the market when a surplus developed and desperate undercutting begins. 
Most people without a full semi look for others to help pay the load or try to hitch a ride on someone else's truck, but anyone that does this without knowing where the bees are going is asking for disaster. 
Sheri


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## kwest (May 16, 2009)

i am just curious as to what the average going rate per colony that is payed out by the farmers for almonds or other crops.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

kwest said:


> i am just curious as to what the average going rate per colony that is payed out by the farmers for almonds or other crops.


This should answer your question.

http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=666

As Sheri said there ended up being a surplus last season 

As stated in quote below from the link above.

"The 2009 almond pollination season will be remembered as 'the year everything changed.' 2009 was the first time in recent years when the supply of almond bees exceeded the demand."

I don't think its a good time for a rookie to get involved. And as far as that goes I think it would be a good idea to work for a beek who does it and get some experience before heading for the gold rush with no clue.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

WI-beek said:


> I don't think its a good time for a rookie to get involved.


Now see, I think it's a great time to get started. I think a lot of beeks that were barely hanging on are going to get put out of business by this, which will flood the market with bees and equipment, and since even the big guys aren't going to get paid as much, they won't be able to buy them all up, which will lower the price so that the next couple of years it will likely be cheaper to get started than it has been for the last decade or so. 

Granted, it will be tougher to make it for those that jump in with both feet and head down there within the next year or two, but for those of us that take our time and build up over the next few years, then when the drought breaks the almond growers need all the bees they can get again, that's when we'll really head down. In the meantime though (perhaps by 2012, or 2013), I'd like to do a "test run" with a much smaller number of hives to make sure I've got everything down right, and if I don't, and I lose everything, I'll only be losing a few hives instead of many hundreds. I figure it's a bit like investing, when you want to strike out on your own in the stock market, you don't start out by dumping everything you've got into your individual picks. Instead you start with either imaginary money or just a token sum, and you make sure you've got the right strategy and understanding to outperform a money market account. Then you can consider putting your life savings into it.



WI-beek said:


> And as far as that goes I think it would be a good idea to work for a beek who does it and get some experience before heading for the gold rush with no clue.


I agree, and I plan to as much as I can.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

SgtMaj said:


> beeks that were barely hanging on are going to get put out of business by this, which will flood the market with bees and equipment.


It will take a lot of beeks going bankrupt to have much effect _as long as the almond demand is there._ I don't think both boxes and bees will be cheap at the same time, unless the demand for almond bees goes away. 

As in any industry it is survival of the fittest (or sometimes luckiest). We _have_ seen more beeks trying to make it and going under I think but they are being swept up by those still in business and prices have stayed stable or increased. Almonds still need so many colonies. We may end up with less beeks but more colonies per beek, continueing the trend that has been going on for some time. 



SgtMaj said:


> I'd like to do a "test run" with a much smaller number of hives


You mentioned working for a commercial outfit. It might be a good plan to build up while working with another more experienced beek, then send your test run bees out with him, sharing the semi if needed. I have seen this done successfully several times. It is more expensive to send a smaller amount than a larger amount, as a general rule, most especially if you plan on spending any time in California tending them. Those hotel rooms do add up.
Most failures I hear about are those sending bees without doing the amount of research one would do when buying a new car, often trusting (the wrong) someone else to "take care of everything". By asking questions you are definitely ahead of those folks. You mention figuring out the right strategy and making sure you have it right before considering to invest the life savings. I would like to stress that it is hard to figure out a "right" strategy when the rules are always in flux. Just like the stock market, some aspects of beekeeping have a greater exposure to risk than other aspects. California almonds compares better to junk bonds than a money market. It may not be exciting, but it is always a safer bet to leave the savings in the money market (or leave the bees in honey production). And only bet what you can afford to lose.

I wouldn't discourage you from starting out though. A few years back you didn't see the interest in beekeeping you see now, the money just wasn't there to attract "new blood". It is good to see so many younger folks getting into it, now maybe we will have someone to sell to when we retire.:applause:
Sheri


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> It will take a lot of beeks going bankrupt to have much effect _as long as the almond demand is there._ I don't think both boxes and bees will be cheap at the same time, unless the demand for almond bees goes away.


You don't think this drought and water restrictions will drive down demand?



JohnK and Sheri said:


> As in any industry it is survival of the fittest (or sometimes luckiest). We _have_ seen more beeks trying to make it and going under I think but they are being swept up by those still in business and prices have stayed stable or increased. Almonds still need so many colonies. We may end up with less beeks but more colonies per beek, continueing the trend that has been going on for some time.


Probably, but if we have a few years where there's more bees than almonds, even the big guys aren't going to get paid as well as they once did, and that will impact their ability to absorb the little guys that don't make it. Not that I want to see a bunch of hardship out there, but a good capitalist capitalizes on both the successes of those who do well, as well as the failures of those who don't or are hit with adverse circumstances.



JohnK and Sheri said:


> Most failures I hear about are those sending bees without doing the amount of research one would do when buying a new car, often trusting (the wrong) someone else to "take care of everything". By asking questions you are definitely ahead of those folks. You mention figuring out the right strategy and making sure you have it right before considering to invest the life savings. I would like to stress that it is hard to figure out a "right" strategy when the rules are always in flux. Just like the stock market, some aspects of beekeeping have a greater exposure to risk than other aspects. California almonds compares better to junk bonds than a money market. It may not be exciting, but it is always a safer bet to leave the savings in the money market (or leave the bees in honey production). And only bet what you can afford to lose.


That's definately good advise.



JohnK and Sheri said:


> I wouldn't discourage you from starting out though. A few years back you didn't see the interest in beekeeping you see now, the money just wasn't there to attract "new blood". It is good to see so many younger folks getting into it, now maybe we will have someone to sell to when we retire.:applause:
> Sheri


Yeah, and that's the other thing that's going to add more equipment/bees on the for sale market over the next few years... If my local beekeepers association membership is any indication of the national average age of beekeepers, there will only be a few of us that haven't retired within the next two decades.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

SgtMaj said:


> Probably, but if we have a few years where there's more bees than almonds, even the big guys aren't going to get paid as well as they once did, and that will impact their ability to absorb the little guys that don't make it.


SgtMaj you got to remember , thats these are the same big guys that was making a living at this when it was $80 a hive a few years ago, more or less they hit the lottery here the last few year weather the admit it or not, they making real good money now and I am very happy for them, about time someone get a little of what they deserve. I am sure they will have no problems absorbing the ones that cant make it.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

TwT said:


> SgtMaj you got to remember , thats these are the same big guys that was making a living at this when it was $80 a hive a few years ago, more or less they hit the lottery here the last few year weather the admit it or not, they making real good money now and I am very happy for them, about time someone get a little of what they deserve. I am sure they will have no problems absorbing the ones that cant make it.


We'll just have to see then.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Most of the growers DID manage to find enough water to make a crop, and this is an el nino year. That usually means lots of snow in the mountains. Here in the mountains we have had a few rainstorms this fall and its raining now. One good winter will fill all the reservoirs back up.
Many of the orchards taken out were because they were older plantings or had disease problems and the growers figured now was a good time to replant them.
Some beeks will go under, some growers will too, especially with the bad economy in general. But I think most of the major players will still be around.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I heard that California passed an extensive water allocation/rules type law. The only thing that I heard about it was that more water from northern California would go to southern California. How did farmers fair with this law?


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## simplyhoney (Sep 14, 2004)

Sgt Maj,
SEE THREAD TITLED"BEEKEEPING HORROR STORIES............" IT AINT ALL CHERRIES AND ICE CREAM. tHE ONLY ONES GOING OUT OF BUSINESS WILL BE THE ONES THAT DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Agreed- it aint all peaches and cream. When thinking about almonds, remember the MOST important day of the beekeeping year. That is the day the graders come to count frames of bees  or , depending on what you did the rest of the year.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

Oh I'm sure all the major players will still be around, it'll be a lot of little guys that get hurt, and their undercutting in their struggle to survive will still likely hurt the major players, too, just not to the point that they become unprofitable. But it's those little guys going under in the next few years that I hope to capitalize on.


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