# OTS Queen rearing, why notch at all



## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

It's done on old comb to make it easier for the bees to make queen cells


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Because by notching the bees can make a much better fed queen than the can if you leave the comb as is. Bees can't chew the old cocoon filled comb. The larvae is fed extra royal jelly and on comb that's not notched it gets separated from the royal jelly when the cell turns down.


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## Neon (Jul 21, 2015)

Hmm.. I have read and heard from many places, that when you have queenless hive, or if you are not sure, just stick them a frame with young brood. And I have good experience with queens from that. They are strong 

And also I was thinking, that they move the egg from the cell into the queen cup they make for that. Is it not like that?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

no, they don't move eggs


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Harley Craig said:


> no, they don't move eggs


I have heard both accounts -- Winston's "The Biology of the Honey Bee" ; p.182 says that workers can and do move small numbers of fertlized eggs and small larvae from worker cells to queen cups. Others have also written about this observation.


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## Neon (Jul 21, 2015)

Thanks for the ideas. I am more surprised after this discussion, that notching is so needed  Because many of us has perfect experience, how bees will create perfect mothers from any frame of young brood.

Anyway.. I would like to ask second thing.

What will happen, if you notch in a hive with queen?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The workers can move eggs; actually they remove them from cells such as extra eggs laid or unviable eggs. I think they usually eat them though! 

Many things are written that are not supported by fact. Books and the internet are full of such examples. Even Beesource lets a few examples slip through the cracks!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Neon said:


> Thanks for the ideas. I am more surprised after this discussion, that notching is so needed  Because many of us has perfect experience, how bees will create perfect mothers from any frame of young brood.
> 
> Anyway.. I would like to ask second thing.
> 
> What will happen, if you notch in a hive with queen?


Notching in a few different places can give you cells on a number of frames so you can start multiple nucs., whereas the bees may lump them all on one frame.

I notched a frame with eggs and young larvae that I was putting in to test if the colony had a queen or not. The next day the notched area was repaired (black plastic foundation) and the eggs and larvae were still in the cells! That is just one experience though. If you raised a frame of brood above an excluder and several honey supers I would bet you would get cells started in a queenright colony.


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

You chose the size larvae when you graft. OTS also allows you to chose the size larvae when you notch. It also allows the cell to be drawn in a downward position much like a swarm cell vs a supercedure etc. Also you notch where you want the cell to be built on wireless foundation which allows you to go back and cut multiple cells from the frame without destroying the cell. So you get more useful cells to transfer.


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## GSkip (Dec 28, 2014)

I notched some of the splits I made this spring. They just repaired the notch and I finally bought queens to get them going.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

To the OP, and I think I wrote basically the same thing last night, OTS will give you superior queens to those that will be made in an emergency situation.

I have used OTS for the past 3 years when wanting to make a few queens, up to maybe 6 at a time. I started grafting last year, and I think I learned something about OTS in the process. A week ago I wanted to make about 6 good cells. I chose some nice just hatched larvae on the comb and notched 6-8 different areas on the 2 frames. I went to split them into different hives yesterday and the bees had only used 2 locations that I notched and those 2 weren't centered up in the notch like I had become accustomed to. The bees had pulled emergency cells on the face of all 3 frames that I moved from the original hive, as well as some emergency cells on the frame of eggs I used for OTS.

I think I figured out what happened. When grafting I've read and been told to choose the youngest larvae for grafting. Makes sense to me.

When I made the OTS notches I chose the youngest larvae on the frames and notched them. They were the perfect size for grafting, but I think given the choice the bees will use the oldest larvae suited to make a queen from. It's their quickest path to a new queen and that's what they are after. If anyone has any input on this, I'd love to hear it.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Neon said:


> I am beginner and I don't understand, why should I notch frames with young larvae when making quenless split/nuc. From my experience, they always started queen cells from any egg/larva frame I gave them. No notching, nothing. So what is so interesting about this OTS method? Why can't I just make the nucs by placing few frames of brood into them and leaving bees do the job as they like? Thank you.


I don't know. I think this is a fad and this is the year. If you're a beginner or don't make your own queens, buy one and gain tons of brood without waiting for a queen to mate. If you graft, then you'll just never even consider this method.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I've never tried it, but have read the info. The logic is sound, and seems applicable for emergencies and small to medium scale queen rearing. Many have reported good success and some swear by it. It's simple & quick. No special equipment or manipulations are required - just a hive tool and some basic knowledge. It's one "proven" technique that has been successfully used for at least a few years. IIRC, Enjambes is one of the advocates. At least a few others, I'm pretty sure...

Basically, it revolves around the idea that bees build better queen cells with new comb, and prefer to build queen cells downward. The "notch" creates a point to start new wax. The new wax ( cell) can start off downward, right off the bat. This eliminates the "need" to float a larva out to the point where the queen cell can be built downwards, which speeds up the process a bit.

It's one of many ways to rear queens - the simplicity seems to be a major selling point. Of course it's not bullet proof - certain conditions have to be right. Not unlike the many other methods.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Sunday Farmer said:


> I don't know. I think this is a fad and this is the year. If you're a beginner or don't make your own queens, buy one and gain tons of brood without waiting for a queen to mate. If you graft, then you'll just never even consider this method.



It's not a fad it's been used by many people for many years. It has its place in my apiary. Maybe not yours, but it is a great way to make a few high quality queens. We don't all need 24 queens at a time and I use the OTS method if I need 6 or fewer queen cells. No need for a cell starter hive. A strong nuc full of nurse bees can make 6 cells as well as a cell starter can.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Ya, I personally think it's the perfect example of KISS. I've had a few conversations with him about it. He's tried pretty much the whole gambit for queen rearing. He published a book in 1988 about his cell building technique with shell casings covering the selected larvae and flour sprinkled around the perimeter. Then one day he tried breaking the cell wall with a twig, when the hive raised a cell from it he knew he had something simpler.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

No, if you notch in a queen right hive they will
not build out these cells. They will repair the notched cells back to
the worker cells. Very typical in a strong queen hive situation.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

With the OTS method the queen is pulled and the cells notched.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Fad or not it works. I expanded from 5 to 12 hives last season using this method and I'm now working on spring splits with upwards of 20 hives. May be a fad but I'm sticking with it. Here is one of my OTS queens:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Nice looking queen there.
Looks like the one I've grafted.
It doesn't matter which method you use as long as you
learn something from it and have good laying queens in the end.
I don't use the OTS method anymore as my bees are more than happy
to give me the queen cells every 2 weeks or so.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

If the wax is light they seem able and eager to pull a good emergency cell. When the comb is older they may pull a cell out, or may not even try. This spring, I had 4 that didn't draw cells from older comb. In comb of same age in other splits I notched and got good cells. I did get a few not notched that did pull cells, but they didn't look as good. In any case I want a good queen not a pretty cell. We'll see.


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## Christo (May 28, 2012)

I have used the OTS method very successfully and notching is critical if you're trying to create more than one split from a hive. I've found that sometimes the hive doesn't like the larva I've selected and notched, but most of the time they do. I mark the frames I've notched and a week later those are almost always the ones that have queen cells constructed on them. 

Winter was terrible two years ago and I lost all but one hive. I used Mel Disselkoen's book as a guide for splitting and by the fall had 11 strong hives ready for winter, harvested 3 gallons of honey and sold 2 nucs. Most importantly, I didn't spend even a single dime on bees or queens. Just the cost of a book. 

I don't think this is a fad at all, just one method of effective beekeeping.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you make a hive queenless they will make queen cells with or without notching. The idea is that you are picking the right age larvae (based on the theory that the bees will not) and also that the bees prefer to (and maybe for a well fed queen need to) tear down the cell wall, which is difficult with cocoons in the cells. You help insure both things: the right age larvae, and a cell wall they can tear down.

I have yet to see any evidence that bees can move eggs. Though there are those who believe they can.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> The idea is that you are picking the right age larvae (based on the theory that the bees will not) .


Michael,

With all due respect (seriously), It is not based on the theory that the bees won't pick the right age larva. Mel even states, you have to pick the same age the bees would use or they will ignore your notches. The main point I've learned from Mel is that when you notch an appropriate cell(s) the bees will build a nice full size queen cell and not have a mis-shaped cell that goes from horizontal to vertical.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>With all due respect (seriously), It is not based on the theory that the bees won't pick the right age larva. Mel even states, you have to pick the same age the bees would use or they will ignore your notches. The main point I've learned from Mel is that when you notch an appropriate cell(s) the bees will build a nice full size queen cell and not have a mis-shaped cell that goes from horizontal to vertical.

I agree that they won't pick the wrong aged larvae but it is a common concern. The two issues that have been raised over the decades with emergency queens is whether they pick the right age larvae and whether they are undernourished if they can't tear down the cell wall. OTS settles both questions.


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## bean tree homestead (Nov 18, 2013)

Notching is only a very small part of the OTS system. With the whole system in place you wont use mite-a-cides or every have to worry about swarms. You can get the first book for free on his web site but I do recommend buying the new book if you are serious about the program as it is written.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> I agree that they won't pick the wrong aged larvae but it is a common concern. The two issues that have been raised over the decades with emergency queens is whether they pick the right age larvae and whether they are undernourished if they can't tear down the cell wall. OTS settles both questions.



I see what you meant, I thought you were saying something else :thumbsup: I didn't know anyone thought the bees would choose the wrong age larva :lpf:


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Brad Bee said:


> It's not a fad it's been used by many people for many years. It has its place in my apiary. Maybe not yours, but it is a great way to make a few high quality queens. We don't all need 24 queens at a time and I use the OTS method if I need 6 or fewer queen cells. No need for a cell starter hive. A strong nuc full of nurse bees can make 6 cells as well as a cell starter can.


I know. I'm being unfair and disparaging to OTS. But compare how many posts OTS queen rearing made last year compared to already this season. And that's why I am saying fad. HackleGuy that's cool.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

For some reason my bees don't make the queen cells that
easily. So I have to do a graft in order for them to make these cells.
They just cap all the regular larvae into the worker bees in a queen less hive.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

OTS cells transferred to a new start yesterday


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## bearkarting (Mar 13, 2013)

Hackleguy, how long have drones in your area been flying? I'm planning notching hives in Jackson and Ingham county on 5/7/2016, but I'm concerned if there are enough drones.

Regards,
Rodney


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

beepro said:


> No, if you notch in a queen right hive they will
> not build out these cells. They will repair the notched cells back to
> the worker cells. Very typical in a strong queen hive situation.


That's not actually true.
I use OTS in the spring for my "swarm control" splits. I don't start my grafting until May when I have more dependable weather. Most of the big boomer hives need 1 split in early April before I can graft a round and these are perfect for OTS. I exclude the queen to the bottom box with brood. I place an empty super on the excluder and the second brood box is placed on top of the super. In the top brood box I include 2 frames of eggs/larvae and notch cells on each frame and face the notches together in the center of the box. I put the lid on and come back 1 week later to find in most cases they make queen cells. I did about 40 of these this spring (in queen right colonies) and I think 34 made nice queen cells. They will move up as many nurse bees needed to take care of the brood. I then take the top box and place it on it's own bottom board, feed and wait for the queen to hatch, mate and lay. The original hive gets a new second deep.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

I've had lots of drones for at least two weeks. I wasn't going to notch until May 1 But when I was in the hives around the 15th of April there were drones everywhere. I'm up near Grand Rapids.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

bearkarting--
More than ample drones. Definately ahead of schedule in that regard for this time of year. We've had an overabundance all the way back to around Easter. You won't have issues mating due to lack of drones. 

However, this is the absolute earliest I consider raising queens even though others go earlier. Just look at the weather the last two weeks, just horrible. Ive seen plenty of swarming activity already but I don't expect much positive from that. Normally very low success rate with colonies re-queening this time of year. Historically weather settles down in another couple of weeks and you will have better luck then. the longer range weather forecast suggest we might be heading into a different weather pattern so hopefully you get lucky and catch a break of good weather starting this weekend and moving forward. it is wise to also have a back up plan in case things get off track. you might want to try notching a second time about a week later just to have options 

Good luck with the notching. personally havent had the best of luck with it but might give it another try just for fun


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Has anyone ever tried to notch every frame with brood? 

Will they make q cells on all of the frames, or will they only pick half or so? 

What's the maximum q cells you could get with notching?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If you pull hive body up above an empty hive body above an excluder the nurse bees who go up to tend the brood seem to not feel they are part of a queenright hive and will almost guaranteed to start cells, notch or no notch. If you notch cells in the brood box with the queen in it the bees will repair the cells.

Temperature and the number of bees in the colony probably affect the separation distance necessary to control whether some bees are functionally queenright or not. Carnie and Russian bees may be easier to induce starting cells.

My bees started capping a few drone cells a week ago. A few can be seen flying but they overwintered. It will be another month before a good supply of drones are mature to mate.


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## bearkarting (Mar 13, 2013)

Last year, my daughter graduation ceremony from WMU was on May 2nd. So I notched the previous weekend on 2 larger hives. Both requeened successfully. July 9th notched same parent hives plus one additional hive. These three hives built ~ 40 QC's. Some were where I notched some were not. Wish I had more bees to support that many queens.

I was going to notch last weekend but weather has not cooperated. Tentatively planning on notching in 4 hives this weekend.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I have drones coming out my ears and at least one swarm came out of a two story five frame nuc. In my mad haste to keep open brood nests on a monster spring flow, I moved boxes of frames full of nectar up above queen excluders and found cells started where I had no idea there were eggs or larvae. The cells have probably emerged now in mating nuc/queen castles. When I initially started the OTS procedures, It seemed I usually notched cells that were beyond the optimum age and the bees rebuilt the notching damage and somewhere on the frames found cells more to their liking. Now that I notch the cells that look like there is a cloudy wet spot they build out cells where I want them. If I choose larvae that look more defined, they choose their own.


crofter said:


> If you pull hive body up above an empty hive body above an excluder the nurse bees who go up to tend the brood seem to not feel they are part of a queenright hive and will almost guaranteed to start cells, notch or no notch. If you notch cells in the brood box with the queen in it the bees will repair the cells.
> 
> Temperature and the number of bees in the colony probably affect the separation distance necessary to control whether some bees are functionally queenright or not. Carnie and Russian bees may be easier to induce starting cells.
> 
> My bees started capping a few drone cells a week ago. A few can be seen flying but they overwintered. It will be another month before a good supply of drones are mature to mate.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

When trying to propagate really good queens I have notched six frames and gotten cells on all of them. If you want maximum cells, use the procedure mel moved past, of choosing twenty or so cells on a frame and placing a .257 caliber bullet for reloading ammunition in the chosen cells and killing the rest with wheat flour. Then you turn the chosen cells horizontally down and drop out the bullets and set the frame in a device that holds them a couple inches off the top bars of your cell starter and then finisher and the bees will draw them out.


FlowerPlanter said:


> Has anyone ever tried to notch every frame with brood? THe book is $50 but I find it worth it to have everything laid out better than on line and I like to pay people for their work.
> 
> Will they make q cells on all of the frames, or will they only pick half or so?
> 
> What's the maximum q cells you could get with notching?


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Has anyone ever tried to notch every frame with brood?
> 
> Will they make q cells on all of the frames, or will they only pick half or so?
> 
> What's the maximum q cells you could get with notching?



I do notch every frame with the right age brood. I made three splits from one notched hive yesterday. I don't know if there is a limit but they seem to build a ton if you notch quite a few places.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Could getting a huge number of cells started lead to having the feeding neglected to some extent? Maybe not if you are moving the frames into other supporting hives right away.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

That depends on how crowded is the hive.
Without enough nurse bees to tend to the cells they will
make dinky queens. With a full booming hive they can take
more cells. Somehow the bees know to follow a set schedule.


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

I was going to try a Clemens starter finisher but OTS... that way the box will be populous with bees and feed.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

What I like about on the spot queen rearing with the notching is that I can pick the frame or frames to notch and get the cells to be started where I want them on the frame and that makes them easier to cut off the frame. Put the notched frame in a strong queenless hive that doesn't have lots of other young larvae for near guaranteed results. I mark the top of the frame with an x with my hive tool. Be Extremely careful when you take the frame out or you may bump the cells and ruin them.


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

Once I tried OTS but the second day all cells were repaired and the bees have made no queens cells. Probably they needed more time to decide.
I find grafting very convenient using a magnifying head lamp. Starting from this year I'm using a sort of cloacke method instead of a separate starter. After the bees have been starting to draw cells, the following batches of cells can be given without making the second box queen less. It's the earliest time for queen rearing in 3 years since I have bees.


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## BobL (Aug 8, 2015)

I've also been looking at the OTS method because I have a couple colonys that are really full of bees.
One of my 4 hives already produced capped cells so it was split Sunday, found the queen and placed her in a 5 frame nuc leaving one good cell and one that look a little damaged in the original hive. I'm wanting to keep a couple colonys for honey production but I'm not sure how to keep them from swarming? With Mel's OTS method as I understand it is to notch for a new queen and make split with the original queen before they start Q-cells but I'm concerned about getting a mated queen with the weather were having? Also how will a 2 or 3 frame split now affect the honey production? Seems like there is so much more to learn in 2nd season bee keeping
:s


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## totoff91 (May 14, 2016)

hi everyone

I've been rearing queens (in small numbers) in observation hives in order to observe the growth and process of the making of queens ; I could see and take photos of how the workers started to use plastic queen cups a few minutes after the grafting opperation...etc..etc.. until the birth of the queen and the mating of the queen ; (removing of the mating sign by the workers....etc)

This year I want to try the OTS method and see what happens live (photos and filming..)

I would like to know I some fo you would have nice PHOTOs of the OTS Queens they were able to get and post the photos 

I have been "studying" the emergency queens for several years now and I can tell that sometimes you get very good queens provided the bees used a new comb that never contained brood before ; and some other tims I could get very heavy queens (320 mg!) from brood laid in a old comb!! The results it seems depend on loads of factors (number and age of nurse bees, pollen availability, varroa infestation level..etc)



I will post some photos this we...


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Pics of them making cells on notched old comb would be greatly appreciated.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I have always just left queenless bees with a frame of brood. they seem to work it out. I have never bothered notching. in fact never really thought to do it. I have seen comments that bees attempting to draw out a worker cell to be a queen cell may not be the most adequate accommodations. I have not seen enough evidence this is true to be concerned. Things I have seen a difference in is a hive without enough resources to rear adequate queens. to few nurses. not enough pollen etc. It falls into the category of. no a worker cell drawn out to be a queen cell may not be the best situation. but as far as I can tell it is completely adequate. Concern and effort to achieve the "Best" is a waste. Plus who is to say an outright queen cell is better anyway. I would like to see a side by side comparison of queens. One reared in a queen cup and the other reared from a worker cell. Then measure time to mate and start laying as well as time required to lay first 4 frames of brood. Or something like that.


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

I tried the "hopkins" method this Saturday and I'm very pleased on how the bees formed a very thick layer on the underside of the frame. Very impressive: it must be about 1 kilo of bees on that single frame.

https://www.google.ro/search?q=hopk...h=686#tbm=isch&q=hopkins+method+queen+rearing

I think I'll give up grafting for it is way easier and safer this way.


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## Grounded (May 11, 2017)

I am seeing a real difference of opinion on using the OTS method of raising queens, and how the OTS method is forcing the workers to raise emergency cells.

This brings up a question!

Doesn't every method of raising queens, force the workers into emergency mode to raise queens?

How is grafting any different than OTS, other than grafting removes the larvae from the original cell and turned vertically?

Regardless of method, the colony is made queen-less before introducing cells for queen building.

Any time a colony is made queen-less they will resort to emergency mode.

Bars of grafted larvae are just as much emergency queens as what the bees do naturally.

From what I have researched as well as read here, the key is the bottom of the cell, grafted, OTS or whatever method, need be open in order to raise the highest quality queens, giving the larvae full access to all available royal jelly.

So for guys like myself, with poor eyesight and hands not as steady as they once were, OTS may be the method to use for raising queens.

My thought would be, if a person is concerned about the workers not using the notched cells they created, why not use Michael Palmer's method of producing comb with nothing but day old larvae, and notching those frames and place the day old only notched frames into the cell builders? This would guaranty the only age of larvae in the cell builder would be day old.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Grounded said:


> My thought would be, if a person is concerned about the workers not using the notched cells they created, why not use Michael Palmer's method of producing comb with nothing but day old larvae, and notching those frames and place the day old only notched frames into the cell builders? This would guaranty the only age of larvae in the cell builder would be day old.


Very good points. I had not thought of it that way. I did a quick look and could not find anything about MP's method of creating frames of day old 
larvae. Can you save me some time and give me a reference. Thank you. Your post makes sense to me. Created contolled swarms and lots of young queens seems to be the way to go. Mel Disselkoen has helped keep a lot of people in beekeeping.


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## Grounded (May 11, 2017)

billabell:

Here is the link to a post Michael Palmer posted here on beesource.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?244271-My-Cell-Building-Methods


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

crofter said:


> Notching in a few different places can give you cells on a number of frames so you can start multiple nucs., whereas the bees may lump them all on one frame.


This is my understanding as well, notching is to get multiple queen cells on multiple frames for queen rearing. If you're simply asking a colony to make their own queen there is no need to notch, bees will select the right larvae.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Grounded, thanks for the link. A very informative thread. Much of it way above my pay grade and I will never be grafting.

It is my understanding that Mel recommends that you notch all of the frames that have eggs following the queens concentric laying pattern. With a magnifying glass I can do it.
Also Mell now uses plastic foundation so he is not cutting out cells.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Vance G said:


> When trying to propagate really good queens I have notched six frames and gotten cells on all of them. If you want maximum cells, use the procedure mel moved past, of choosing twenty or so cells on a frame and placing a .257 caliber bullet for reloading ammunition in the chosen cells and killing the rest with wheat flour. Then you turn the chosen cells horizontally down and drop out the bullets and set the frame in a device that holds them a couple inches off the top bars of your cell starter and then finisher and the bees will draw them out.


You described the Hopkins method.I tried it but didnt dust.The first try didnt do so well.The second try I did dust the cells with flour and pulled the bullets out.You can get lots of really good queens using it as you described.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

"When I made the OTS notches I chose the youngest larvae on the frames and notched them. They were the perfect size for grafting, but I think given the choice the bees will use the oldest larvae suited to make a queen from. It's their quickest path to a new queen and that's what they are after. If anyone has any input on this, I'd love to hear it."

Brad Bee I think you are right.When I need a few I make one queenless after a couple days I start watching.I will cull the cells made from older larvae.I really like having a frame of new comb with eggs hatching.You can get really good starts from those.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

mmiller said:


> That's not actually true.
> I use OTS in the spring for my "swarm control" splits. . . . . _I place an empty super on the excluder _and the second brood box is placed on top of the super. In the top brood box I include 2 frames of eggs/larvae and notch cells on each frame and face the notches together in the center of the box. I put the lid on and . . . .


mmiller - sounds like a good way to do swarm splits. Why the intermediate empty box above the QE? Is that to further educe the amount of queen pheromone finding its way to the top box? What happens if that empty box is not used?


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