# Why some beekeepers fail



## Fusion_power

There is a nice article in the 1917 issue of ABJ on page 159 titled Why Some Beekeepers Fail. This is a topic I've never seen mentioned on beesource since beekeepers who fail would not tend to come to beesource. What do you think, do we need to have a discussion about things that cause beekeepers to fail and how to avoid them?

http://books.google.com/books?id=bpYcAQAAMAAJ

DarJones


----------



## canoemaker

I've learned a lot by making mistakes. I have also learned a lot by observing other people making mistakes. Learning what doesn't work can be as informative as what does work. The trick is to not get them mixed up!


----------



## frazzledfozzle

what were some of the reasons given for failure?
are they talking about beekeepers in general or commercials,sideliners, or.....?


----------



## sqkcrk

I bet the article won't mention too much time sitting in front of a magazine or book or computer.


----------



## Barry Digman

The article didn't define what they meant by failure, but it was summarized thusly: 



> To sum up the causes of failure it was because the would-be beekeeper did not know of the whys and hows of the bee trade. One did not know how buy supplies, another how to handle the swarms, another how to sell honey, another where to place the hive, and so forth. All were not inclined to study the subject for everybody has sense enough to keep bees. All those that have succeeded are men who studied the cause of former failure and keep in tune with the bees and other bee-men, are enjoying their labor and the sweets thereof.
> 
> The lack of preparation was everywhere apparent. Those who were most successful were the most forehanded, and many a failure was caused by a lack of preparedness. If the materials are well cared for, the tools in their places, no time will be lost, no stings will have to be picked out, in fact preparedness is the key to success in bee work. Let the slack time in winter be filled with preparation for next summer's work and not in theorizing on what we could do if we had 100 colonies of purest Italians in an eternal clover pasture or similar foolishness.
> Albany Mo .




It seems as applicable today as it was in 1917.


----------



## bluegrass

They didn't list pure fear... If you fear them you are bound to fail. A healthy dose of respect goes a long way towards success.


----------



## sqkcrk

Failure to plan is planning to fail. Or something like that. So I have heard said.


----------



## Andrew Dewey

I've seen people who were afraid to work their bees. They'd been told the only "proper" way to work bees was gloveless and they just couldn't. Dead hive in the spring and no more beekeeper. I teach you wear what you need to be confident and comfortable when working your bees.


----------



## deknow

...I bet it also.doesn't say that staring at a link to an article is the best preparation to discuss the article.
deknow


----------



## sand2029

As someone who is new to beekeeping (8 months), I could very well end up as a failed statistic. With the few replies to this thread, nearly all imply fear as the element related to failure. I am not sure I agree. The difficulty lies in starting with a single colony, as I presume most do, and seeing the colony through its first complete year. Having multiple colonies allows the beekeeper to experiement, observe, experiment observe etc. For beginning beekeepers, we are essentially practicing our skills on one colony (often small). 100% of a colony lost for the beginner is signficantly more that 10% of 10 colonies. I believe the element is resilance. My colony might fail, but my hobby will not.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

"My colony might fail, but my hobby will not."----THAT'S THE SPIRIT. That is what it takes to be a beekeeper. With that attitude, you might be commercial one day. TED


----------



## Andrew Dewey

sand2029 thank you for your observation!


----------



## jim lyon

I think a lot of folks fail simply because they dont accept the simple premise that a bee hive is a living breathing organism with a fairly short life span. To succeed one needs at least 3 hives plenty of money to invest in all the basic necessities and the willingness to learn and adapt plus extra equipment to expand when you have surplus bees. Absent those things one would need to accept the fact that buying bees will have to be an almost yearly enterprise and the cost of the honey you realize is going to be pretty high.


----------



## David LaFerney

If you don't have a goal, failure is pretty likely. I wonder if there was very many hobby bee keepers in 1917 - or did people get into it to help support their selves in some way? For me, it *is* a hobby, but my goal is for it to be a hobby with a payday every once in a while.

A year ago our local club was flush with new people that were hot to get their first package and save the bees - not many of them are still showing up. I wonder if that was a failure of the newbees, or of the club - or just the way it goes. 

I would also add that technical/physical failure is likely to be caused by departing too far from mainstream cultural practices without first achieving a solid understanding of the basics - Reinventing the wheel before you learn to ride.


----------



## pascopol

sand2029 said:


> ... The difficulty lies in starting with a single colony, as I presume most do, and seeing the colony through For beginning beekeepers, we are essentially practicing our skills on one colony (often small). 100% of a colony lost for the beginner is signficantly more that 10% of 10 colonies. I believe the element is resilance. My colony might fail, but my hobby will not.


Starting with one colony is the basic error, all books I red agree.

If there is a thing in beekeeping close to 100% beeks would agree, this is the one.

Start with at least 2 colonies, 3 or more is better.


----------



## honeyshack

My father in law when he was younger always had two or so hives. His dad had a few hives as well. In a rural farming community, it seemed like many had hives but only a few unless you were commercial. Now a days, unless it is someone who lives in or around the city, or someone who bought a hobby farm it seems live a few hives here and there are few and far between. Life has changed, farming has changed. Most farmers are now many sections large, instead a quarter large. Time is such a big factor that bees are a luxery not afforded.

As for failure, I think i is like the article stated...being prepared. As well, the willingness to learn from the failure rather than up and quit. Also to not to try and reinvent the wheel. Stick with the basics, learn about disease and how to work with it.


----------



## deknow

...there are a few other reasons that I see.

1. Lack of dedication: This may not be the case everywhere, but in our densely populated and fairly well off population in the northeast, many people think they can just do things and figure it out later. It's pretty common in our club to have people that don't come to meetings, don't read books, _might_ come to beeschool, get their bees...and then need help. They don't want to come to your apiary to learn (and they do not want to make their own mistakes), they want you to travel to their apiary (at their convenience) to help them with their problems. I should note that there are several beesource members whom I have helped and whos yards I've visited....none of the above applies to them (the people I'm talking about would not spend the time to read anything here).

2. Mix and match: ...there is so much advice out there, but it isn't all compatible. One example that comes up frequently is following the conventional advice of putting a new box on top of the expanding colony....and also likes the idea of not using foundation. To put the box on top, one needs either foundation (like the conventional advice), or one needs to shuffle things around so that there is some bait comb in the new box....or put the new box below the colony. Putting the box of new frames with foundation on top works. Using foundationless frames works. Combining these two approaches requires a bit more understanding than the new beekeeper usually possess.

3. Unreasonable expectations: Here in Massachusetts, we are told that 60% of the hives in the state died last winter. The new beekeeper with one hive or two (or even 8) that sees a dead hive (or all dead hives) as failure has failed...those that expect to make mistakes and learn from them are not failing when their first hive(s) die.

deknow


----------



## Fusion_power

Eye opening thread so far.

When I first started, I was given 2 colonies in double deep brood chambers. They died out the first winter. The only thing constructive that I knew to do with them was to throw rocks at the sides and watch the bees spew out to see who was bothering them. I was 10 years old at the time. What changed my destiny? A swarm moved into the front wall of the house I lived in. They had to be removed so I figured out how to do it and kept the bees in the process. By the time I was 16, I was building my own equipment and buying foundation from Kelley's. I had a dozen colonies, a subscription to Gleanings in Bee Culture, and a copy of The Hive and The Honeybee by then.

I can get away with not using foundation if the hive is so dadgummed full of bees that they have no choice but to work in a completely empty box. But if you have that many bees, most likely you are about to have a swarm. Just one of the many gotchas that come with keeping bees. But how many beginners would know the signs to watch for and the manipulations that actually work.

DarJones


----------



## odfrank

I have seen many people taking it up like they are getting a new kitten or puppy, they feed them similarly and expect them to live as long. Then they find out that beekeeping is donning a hot suit, working in hot weather, carrying around heavy boxes while getting stung by mad bees who also sting the neighbors or poop on their cars. They find that loading leaking hives or leaking honey in their clean sedans can be a disaster. . Then they get their kitchen so sticky their wife is ready to divorce them. Then they have 300 bottles of honey which takes effort to sell. Then their hive dies and gets ruined by moths. Then they have to clean it up, re-do the frames and buy another package of bees for $75.00. Then the zoning officer knocks on the door, they have to move the hive away. Then they quit. I adopted $1000+ of extracting equipment and boxes when the beekeeping fad of the '70s died off, it will all be available the same again in a few years. Been there, seen that.


----------



## Michael Bush

>there is so much advice out there, but it isn't all compatible

“...avoid the mistake of attempting to follow several leaders or systems. Much confusion and annoyance will be saved if he adopts the teachings, methods, and appliances of some one successful beekeeper. He may make the mistake of not choosing the best system, but better this than a mixture of several systems.”—W.Z. Hutchinson, Advanced Bee Culture


----------



## ldaxon

So how does one describe "failure" as a beekeeper?

Losing a hive over winter. Having a hive robbed to death? Having a hive abscond or loss to CCD? Lots of things can cause the loss of a hive. It was hard for even seasoned pros to keep hives alive this past summer with 60+ days of 100 degree heat and virtually nothing blooming for the girls to forage on here in Oklahoma. I wouldn't necessarily equate the loss of a hive with failure.

Losing a hive(s) and then quitting beekeeping because of the loss is failure to me. That has as much to do with one's mental attitude toward life and loss and dedication to an endeavor as it does with skill or technique.


----------



## libhart

ldaxon said:


> I wouldn't necessarily equate the loss of a hive with failure.


 Precisely.

"There's no such thing as a failure who keeps trying." --Blues Traveler


----------



## Specialkayme

I didn't finish the whole thread just yet. I just saw this quote from David and figured I'd reply.



David LaFerney said:


> A year ago our local club was flush with new people that were hot to get their first package and save the bees - not many of them are still showing up. I wonder if that was a failure of the newbees, or of the club - or just the way it goes.


I'm one of those statistics. Not that I'm no longer a beekeeper, but that I no longer attend club meetings. I started attending meetings after I moved to the area, and had been keeping for about four years. After about six months of meetings, no one seemed to be interested in learning my name, although I could tell you 60% of the people who were there. Everyone viewed me as a "young buck" who wouldn't be around long. I guess they proved themselves right.

They had plenty of "beginner" classes, but nothing more advanced than that. I knew how to take a colony through the winter at that time, but I needed the next step. It wasn't there.

The meetings covered topics from how to keep bees in Malaysia (from a local professor's trip), to how you can turn trash into hives (using recycled building materials). Two of the meetings someone forgot to contact a lecturer, so the Prez got up and started talking about whatever he thought was interesting. None of the lectures really applied to me, there were no classes for my level, and no one seemed to want to talk to me. So I figured I was better off not taking the 25 min drive one way every second tuesday.

I'm sure my results arn't typical, but it just goes to show you that everyone who stops attending meetings hasn't stopped keeping.


----------



## Solomon Parker

An excellent article for sure. Thanks Darrell for continuing to post links to those old articles. They are written in a much different tone and manner than articles written today.

Why do some beekeepers fail? Simple. Some beekeepers quit trying. Why our own Michael Bush has lost all his hives more than once. And if he didn't keep trying, we would not have access to his wealth of information and knowledge this very day.

One of 'my' newbees failed this year. I can see it being due to a number of reasons already mentioned. Fear to look in the hive. Not studying enough to know what's in there. Won't come see how it's done. Suddenly the hive is dead and nobody knows why. I don't know why, I didn't get informed until it was too late to figure it out. And I don't want the leftovers because it's a bunch of 8-frame plastic nonsense. This person knew me for years, yet didn't consult me until after the bees were shipped and they needed someone to supervise installation. Did I mention a complete ignorance of bee disease?

I started with a different attitude. It's kind of hard to lose all 20 colonies your first year. This forum was my bread and butter for months. Lately, I even wrote my own treatment-free newbee plan. It includes time to study, a sizable investment, methods for increase and an admonition to chill.

On the other hand, one could maximize profit selling bees. Feed the fad. Weed out the Johnny come latelys and find the future beekeepers in the bunch. It's a win win.


----------



## Don'tWorryBeeHappy

I've heard many time that as a beginner, I should get multiple hives. But my inner cheap self didn't feel like dropping up to $1K on a hobby that might not last. I've had hobbies in my past that never went anywhere (a banjo comes to mind) and some that I kept up. I figured that I could start a single hive this year and see if it was a good match. 

I won't give up if I lose my first hive this winter. And given the fun I had this year watching my single hive, I'm thinking on getting a second hive next year. If after a couple years though, I don't have any hives that makes it through winter, I may have to hang up my hives next to my banjo in the basement and start obsessing over another hobby. So, my definition of success will be some amount of hives making it winter at some within a couple years. Pretty vague, but so am I.


----------



## xcugat

I would like to add another possible cause of failure--lackluster packages from the deep south, especially in Northern Climates where the queens are not the best suited for the harsh winter. I don't know if it is the overall strain on the honeybee or the quality of queens being produced, but many of the packages that I received in my first few years failed due to poor laying queens that failed to build up or were seemingly healthy but immediatly superseded with poor results. (I know there have been some very cold springs in resent years that affected this, but there are some less than stellar producers as well) After great deal of reading and talking to seasoned beekeepers and most importantly* direct observation* I now know very quickly if there is a problem with the queen, and I am confident enough to call the producer if the queen is a dud and at least try to get a replacement. Many new beekeepers who do not know any better due to lack of study or experience and *never *opening up the hive and at least poking around end up just losing the hive in a slow dwindle and then winter death, and at 80 dollars a pop it gets so costly that they get frustrated and quit.


----------



## BeeGhost

I think it is a lot of different things that contribute to people getting out of beekeeping. Here's my list of possible reasons:

1. They started with fresh equipment and a package of bees, they are a few hundred dollars into their "hobby" and at the end of the season they have maybe a few pounds of honey to "show" for it. In other words, they are not getting the amount of honey they think they should have gotten and decided that they would cut their losses and bail out.

2. They bought all the fancy beekeeping clothing, and still got stung........... that hurts!! Fear sets in everytime they open the hive and it gets so bad they can not stand the pain and they list their hive on Craigslist.

3. They get complaints from the neighbors that "their" bees are drinking out of the neighbors pool, eating the kids snow cones, and causing a ruckus. The new beekeeper gets rid of their hive to appease the neighbors..............and bee's continue to drink out of the pool and eat snow cones, only they are feral bees or someone elses hive in the nieghborhood!

4. People get attached to their pets, and to some, bees are their pets. When the cute little insects die out on the winter, the "owners" are devistated and cant stand the thought of losing another hive of 50,000 pets and get out of the bees.

5. Joe beekeeper has 10 hives on a piece of property, the property owner sells out or passes away and the new owners dont want all those stinging viscious insects around, Joe loses the yard and cant find another one..........or doesnt want to hustle and find another place........Joe gets out of bee's and starts raising "sea monkeys" instead.

6. This one is the most important.........you only "get out what you put in". If you work hard, you will succeed. If you want it to come easy..........raise sea monkeys. A lot of people are lazy and dont want to work or take the time to learn. Im the opposite, I love to work and I will drive you crazy picking your brain!!! I love to experiment and and keep things interesting. If what I did fails, I try something different. If it succeeds, I repeat it. Ive had a lot of hobbies, but nothing so fascinating as beekeeping. I like the fact that most people have a fear of bees and that I am the most interesting person to talk to about bees at family gatherings, and I am very popular with the mothers at school and provided free honey to them this year..........its like crack and they will be buying it from me next year!!LOL


----------



## Spark

People fail because they don't have the heart, it takes alot of heart to accept failure. Odfrank is right my wife would have divorced me but she got caught up in the giving away part to all her friends now we don't have enough honey or bees 

For deknow, too many around here read to much as well got one local member you'd think he was living on the northern cusp of Vermont following the trends of Mike Palmer when we are zone 5-6.


----------



## NY_BLUES

BeeGhost said:


> 6. This one is the most important.........you only "get out what you put in". If you work hard, you will succeed.


Amen. Finally someone hit the nail on the head. This is true for anything someone decomes involved in. A great example is 3 kids playing football. The first kid signs up, never comes to practice, doesnt try, and cant figure out why he isnt in the starting line up. The second signs up, comes to practice, doesnt work very hard, and also stands on the sideline. The third signs up, comes to practices, busts his butt and is the star quarterback.

Same thing applies here. When someone buys a hive, but doesnt bother to educate themselves, work the hive, or ask questions, they will probably be disappointed with the result. But if someone buys a hive, reads magazines, books, gets a mentor, goes to meetings, and applies the tips and nuggets of information they pick up, they have a great chance of being around for a long time. 

I am not saying that everyone has to go to club meetings, thats just an example. I dont attend club meetings, heck I'm not even in any clubs.

Also, what someone defines as success varies. Maybe someone just wants a pastime or hobby and is content with never getting anything out of it. Others may want to turn it into a lifestyle and make a business out of what they enjoy doing. I believe success and failure can only be defined on a personal level, and everyone must decide, if they have failed or succeeded, themselves. 

Darren Hardy, a millionaire and business guru, puts it another way. Those that have "skin in the game" tend to work harder to succeed. If someone has thousands invested and needs the paycheck to pay the bills, they will make sure they succeed. Those that only put in a small amount of money, and just dabble, will most likely fail.


----------



## bluegrass

If we only got out what we put in, none of us would be doing this. We could all sit at home and do nothing with what we have to put in and we would be ahead of the game. 

I shoot for a minimum of a 125% on my investment. Whether that return is in added value or actual profit I really don't care, but it better be there


----------



## Michael Bush

Reality is that you don't necessarily get out of something what you put in. You can put a lot of effort in the wrong places and get nothing out of it. You can put a moderate amount of effort in the right places and get more back than you put in. It's like a lot of sayings, there is some truth at the root, but what is said isn't really true. Of course you can't get something for nothing... that is the root of the thing.

Other similar sayings that are not right (and can also be applied to beekeeping and success):

"Practice makes perfect." If you practice doing it right and strive for perfection, probably. If you practice doing it wrong you just get it so ingrained that you can never do it right...

"You get what you pay for." Actually you don't always get what you pay for. You often get cheated and get much less than you pay for. A more accurate statement would be, "you have to pay for what you get."


----------



## pascopol

Don'tWorryBeeHappy said:


> I've heard many time that as a beginner, I should get multiple hives.  But my inner cheap self didn't feel like dropping up to $1K on a hobby that might not last. I've had hobbies in my past that never went anywhere (a banjo comes to mind) and some that I kept up. I figured that I could start a single hive this year and see if it was a good match.


It is hard to drop $1K on 2 or 3 hives unless you buy a few overpriced "beginner kits" which is absolutely unnecessary.

I spent about $600-$700 over 8 months, currently having 3 colonies going, and I have enough frames, foundation and lumber to make 25 + complete supers and a few nucs, so if I keep splitting bees I'll soon get to at least 10 colonies without spending any extra money.

Speaking of other hobbies you can not learn how to play let's say drums if you only buy a snare instead of a set. 

Starting with one hive is a long shot, likely either bees will quit you or you will quit bees. 

For those who are not sure if the hobby will last the best way perhaps is to join the local club and/or get to know local beek, do a some field work with him or her not just watching but being active. After one takes a few stings and lifts few supers then it will be very clear weather to pursue a new hobby or not without involving significant investment.


----------



## Daniel Y

The question asked is, "why do beekeepers fail"? I have a bit of a peeve, not a serious one but it does stand out to me when people answer a question with more questions. Like well what is a beekeeper and what exactly does fail mean? I find it funny. Since both have a very specific definition and very few people would not know exactly what both mean. I woudl actually be shocked if in a conversation I mentioned I had a beekeeper friends and was interrupted by someone I had to explain what a beekeeper was. Maybe to a child. Anyway the whole confusion thing like this. You don't have to offer an answer if you can claim to be confused by the question and I don't want to look stupid by giving an answer others disagree with.
I tend to get over that by having learned to give up the concern whether others think my answers are good or not. They are my answers so they are all right. they are in fact what I think and there is no one else qualified to know.
It appears to me that the number one reason a beekeeper fails is discouragement. I also think the community already knows that. The evidence that they are aware is that it is a well practiced habit that a new keeper has a mentor. The second most common reason for failure is associated with the first and actually leads to the first. Lack of experience. again addressed by the experienced through mentoring. The third reason I see for beekeeper failure is the condition of the bee itself. With so many things trying to kill it off it makes the job of keeping them much harder, more prone to failure and discouragement.
At this point I see the race becomes very close. and causes of failure become issues like loosing interest for hobbyists. health of the keeper etc. A keeper may have problems with selling product but that to me has to be nothing more than a lack of trying. there is a market for bee products if you are making much of an effort to sell them at all. If you think about it how serious is the average hobbyist trying to sell there products? Usually they are not they are giving it away. By far the majority of keepers are hobbiests. but the majority of products come from the big operations. So I see the greatest room for improvement at the hobbyist recognizing a profit level. Make it worth something more than just a nice summer day with the bees. The more it is worth the more likely they will stay in it. Clubs and such could actually set it up so they will buy at a low end price all products that their smaller members have to sell. and then resell those at a profit even if it is small. It gives the hobbiest keeper and easy place to see a profit and helps the club teach some higher level management issues. Like how to get connected to buyers how to handle a contract how do you handle larger processing situations etc.


----------



## lazy shooter

Beekeepers fail because they lack the enthusiasm and desire to learn enough about the subject. I started beekeeping this year with three second hand hives and three packages of bees. I didn't know squat about bees, and as it turned out, our country went into a one hundred year drought. My hives are small, but alive, and they suffered both the drought and my ineptness. If they live, next year will be great. If they don't live, I will order more bees and give in another try. In fact, I am adding three NUCs to my apiary next year whether these bees live or die. 

I received Michael Bush's latest book this past Christmas, and as soon as the family hunters leave my ranch that is my next reading chore. I believe that I can make a successful beekeeper, and at 72 years of age, I think death is the only thing that will change that outcome. I plan on going into next summer with six hives and some bait hives scattered about my ranch.

I am fortunate to have the financial resources to see this project through. If I was much younger and did not have the finances, it would still be possible by buying second hand equipment, building hives and capturing feral bees. 

I'm in good health, except for painful arthritis, and I plan to have a successful apiary in the next two years. If not, then I will have deprived my children of a wee bit of inheritance, and that doesn't bother me one little bit.


----------



## sqkcrk

I think Daniel has things figured out pretty well on the subject of failure.

As far as why some beekeepers fail, I'm sure there are many who get discouraged by the fragile state of bees. And, as a beekeeper, I don't feel comfortable advising beginners in the use of miticides or even advising going w/out treatments. Either way you go, bees are going to die over winter. Unstated gaurantees are often assumed. So, who's the bad guy? Me, the one asked for advice. 

"You said if I did "X" my bees would still be alive in the Spring and they're dead."

There is so much about beekeeping that one needs to learn by experience, by doing, and by not giving up, that can't be easily taught. I don't know WHY I do everything I do. I don't know how to tell someone that oft times when I open a hive I intuit something is wrong, or may be wrong. How do you describe, illustrate, show that sound? You who work lots of hives and have for a long time know what I mean. But try to get that across to someone new.

Teaching is a responsibility. It can come w/ a lot of failure.


----------



## David LaFerney

bluegrass said:


> I shoot for a minimum of a 125% on my investment. Whether that return is in added value or actual profit I really don't care, but it better be there


I think that sometimes there is *not enough* focus on profit for/among hobby bee keepers. It's a lot easier to sustain interest - and justify the outlay of time and money with the better half - if there is some net income instead of just outgo. 

I have one friend (old school conventional bee keeper) with *6 hives that sold over $4000.00 worth of honey* from his home apiary year before last (a good year). IMO a great business model for a beginner to shoot for *over 3-5 years*. Too many beginners think they are going to make a barrel of honey their first year.

I have another friend with 20 hives (and 20 years exp) who says he has *never made any money* from bee keeping. Both have been at it for years, but I bet you can guess who I pump for advice.


----------



## David LaFerney

Daniel Y said:


> Clubs and such could actually set it up so they will buy at a low end price all products that their smaller members have to sell. and then resell those at a profit even if it is small. It gives the hobbiest keeper and easy place to see a profit and helps the club teach some higher level management issues...


That is a danged fine idea.


----------



## lazy shooter

"I shoot for a minimum of a 125% on my investment. Whether that return is in added value or actual profit I really don't care, but it better be there" by David LaFerney.

In any business plan, I would agree with the above statement. However, over the past decade I have read so much about the demise of domestic bees that I got into beekeeping to aid the bee population. Once I have five to 10 good hives, I intend to let them swarm. I would like to produce 100 pounds of honey per year to give away to friends. Beyond that, I don't care. Obviously, if I made much more honey than I wanted to give away, I would sell it. 

In summary, I am a pure hobbiest and don't have a business plan. I guess I assumed there were more people like me. Maybe that goes to the old saw about assumption.


----------



## libhart

Daniel Y said:


> Make it worth something more than just a nice summer day with the bees.


I'm sure it's been written somewhere in the post, but expectations are key. Bees are my hobby, albeit a very engrossing one, but a hobby nonetheless. I expect to spend money it, just as I would fishing, playing golf, hunting, skiing, etc. That's my expectation, more money goes out than will ever come in, if any comes in at all (what money would I get from skiing or golfing?) There are those that expect to have money coming in as a requirement to stay with beekeeping, and a club could help them in this regard with that purchasing idea, but for me, a nice summer day with the bees is exactly what I want, and I just don't really need more.


----------



## bluegrass

lazy shooter said:


> In any business plan, I would agree with the above statement. However, over the past decade I have read so much about the demise of domestic bees that I got into beekeeping to aid the bee population. Once I have five to 10 good hives, *I intend to let them swarm*.


Pleasse don't do this: The honeybee is domestic livestock. Intentionally allowing any domestic livestock go feral is detrimental to the environment. Look at feral swine that are tearing up the south. It is estimated that when the honey bee was brought to this country, 200 plus species of native pollenators went extinct because the honey bees displaced by being more efficient. 

Honey bees are not native to the US and do not belong in the North American environment in a feral state.


----------



## bluegrass

I am a hobby beek. I have gone sideline before and I quit enjoying beekeeping when I have to do it rather then choosing to do it. I still make more then I put in. You can make money with any hobby. You can make money playing golf and skiing competitively. You can make money fishing, there are amateur tournaments all over the country year around that pay cash. I know a guy who bass fishes all summer on Wed nights, he is always up 2-3 K at the end of the season over gas and fees. 

I hunt and have made money organizing hunting leases for people. I also sail and can make money moving boats and racing. There is money to be made in about any hobby if you know what you're doing.

Look up the IRS definition of a business... It includes Hobbies.


----------



## sqkcrk

I disagree w/ both of you. Don't let them swarm thinking you are doing them a favor and also, bees are not domesticated. The difference between feral and managed is just that. Managed and not. Comparisons between bees and other animals is not appropriate. Doesn't fit.


----------



## bluegrass

Sqeak:

Most texts would disagree with you:

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?ParagraphID=ays

http://bohart.ucdavis.edu/pdfs/Beneficial_Insects.pdf


----------



## libhart

bluegrass said:


> There is money to be made in about any hobby if you know what you're doing.


Oh I don't disagree with you there, but for me (again, expectations), if I *have* to make money in order to keep doing it, it's no longer a hobby, it's work. If you made nothing would you quit? That was the original idea proposed I think, and for me (and possibly many others) that's just not the case.


----------



## bluegrass

libhart said:


> . If you made nothing would you quit? .


Yes; I enjoy doing it, but for me it has to pay for it's self or I will find another hobby that does. Beekeeping is one of the easier hobbies a person can have and make a profit with, or at least break even.


----------



## Solomon Parker

bluegrass said:


> The honeybee is domestic livestock.


No they are not.

Honeybees are legally considered wild animals. If your cows get out, whoever finds them cannot just keep them. They are legal property. Such is not the same with bees. If your hive swarms, you have no legal right to that swarm as property.

As long as those hives are kept treatment-free, then swarming is good and healthy. If they are kept conventionally, then letting them swarm is a waste of time. They will just die.


----------



## camero7

Solomon Parker said:


> No they are not.
> 
> Honeybees are legally considered wild animals. If your cows get out, whoever finds them cannot just keep them. They are legal property. Such is not the same with bees. If your hive swarms, you have no legal right to that swarm as property.
> 
> As long as those hives are kept treatment-free, then swarming is good and healthy. If they are kept conventionally, then letting them swarm is a waste of time. They will just die.


Have to disagree. Having been raised on a ranch in Colorado lots of calves "disappear" every year. Old saying, if you want to eat your own beef you have to visit the neighbors.

Some of those swarms survive every year, treated or not.


----------



## bluegrass

Feel free to disagree; but if you call your local entomology dept at any University and ask if Apis Mellifera is domesticated they will tell you they are. 

Now don't confuse "tame" with "Domesticated". these are very different things. Domestication involves selective breeding to meet the needs of humans where because of human interference; the natural evolutionary path was altered. With bees we have bees selectively breeding them for at least 3000 years to produce more honey, swarm less, sting less, etc.

Animals do not have to be unable to live on their own in order to be domestic... any house cat can live on its own and act wild, that doesn't change the fact that it is a domestic cat.


----------



## sqkcrk

bluegrass said:


> Sqeak:
> 
> Most texts would disagree with you:
> 
> http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?ParagraphID=ays
> 
> http://bohart.ucdavis.edu/pdfs/Beneficial_Insects.pdf


Historyworld notes domestication of some animals but doesn't state that bees are domesticated or how. Somehow they write about domestic HONEY. Interesting.

ucdavis writes about Domesticated bees versus native pollinators. A misuse of the term in my opinion, if I may be so bold as to disagree w/ an educational institute like UCDavis.

I would alsao point out that two examples in no way constitutes MOST. But maybe we are in disagreement of the term domestic/domesticated. Are feral honeybees, when hived by a beekeeper, less managable than those previously managed? Were they AHB I could see that as a difference. Are AHB domesticated or wild?


----------



## David LaFerney

Is there a way to tag a comment as off topic?t:


----------



## bluegrass

sqkcrk said:


> ucdavis writes about Domesticated bees versus native pollinators. A misuse of the term in my opinion, if I may be so bold as to disagree w/ an educational institute like UCDavis.
> 
> I would alsao point out that two examples in no way constitutes MOST. But maybe we are in disagreement of the term domestic/domesticated. Are feral honeybees, when hived by a beekeeper, less managable than those previously managed? Were they AHB I could see that as a difference. Are AHB domesticated or wild?


AHB is a hybrid between a domestic bee and a wild bee. 

You can call UC Davis for a clarification: phone: (530) 752-0492 Ask for DR Eric Mussen, he heads the Apiculture lab.


----------



## BeeGhost

I fully understand when people want to make a proffit on their hobby, or even break even in order to sustain it. I on the other hand, enjoy beekeeping enough that I dont seek out making money. I never sold a single jar of honey this year, but I sure did make a lot of friends and family happy by giving them a jar for free!! These are the same friends that gave be fruits, vegatables, meat and home made baked goods..........its a bartering system that has been around for ever. 

Do I intend to make a proffit someday? Maybe, but thats not important..............why? Because, this is my HOBBY. I strive to be different than those around me. My family runs cattle for a hobby, its been done for generations. Do they make a proffit, probably not much, but they enjoy feeding the cattle, having round-ups and keeping the hobby alive. I run bees, nobody in my family has ever kept bees. I enjoy sitting out by the hives listening to the buzz and watching the social interaction at the entrance. I like having a bee land on me and start cleaning itself. I like taking adults and kids alike out to the small bee yard and showing them the bees and teaching them not to fear them. People are amazed that when I stand within feet of the hives that the bees arnt pouring out of the hive to sting me to death. That is what I like, teaching the truth to people, not the animated fears that they hear or read about.

I enjoy wood working, I enjoy reading forums like this one and seeing how people do things differently, and most of all, I enjoy a challenge. Not to mention............the rewards are SWEET!!


----------



## Fusion_power

So for many beginning beekeepers it is a matter of expectations and understanding what you "expect" to get out of beekeeping. If the expectations are too high or unrealistic then it is easy to drop out of the occupation. What about a person who only wants bees for pollination. They have no interest in honey, they have no reason for keeping bees except that they have a dozen fruit trees and want to see them well pollinated every spring? Are these realistic expectations? Is the "profit" of having your fruit trees set boat loads of fruit every spring an acceptable result?

You have to look to the court system to answer the question whether bees are domestic or not. The courts have held that bees are "ferae naturae". This means that when a swarm exits from one of your colonies, they are your bees only so long as you have them in sight and can identify them as being from your colony. Once they leave the vicinity, anyone can capture them and become the new owner. Therefore bees cannot be considered domestic in the same sense that a cow or a horse is domestic. As for whether bees belong in the environment here in the U.S., it doesn't matter what you or I think, what matters is that they are here and show no signs of leaving.

DarJones


----------



## Acebird

Daniel Y said:


> The question asked is, "why do beekeepers fail"? I have a bit of a peeve, not a serious one but it does stand out to me when people answer a question with more questions.


Well Daniel we all think differently. The topic heading does not differentiate between financial ruin and giving up a hobby and the article was not accessible to me from the link given. So I don't see why you would be peeved about someone asking questions.

Financial ruin has to do with running a business and there is a mountain of information about running a business that could explain failure. A hobby has to do with interest and people's interest change for many reasons.

Bluegrass, cats have the ability to turn back to farel and so do bees. If that were not true there would be no need to have bee removal survices. Some of us see an advantage of natural kept bees returning to the wild.


----------



## Acebird

Dar what if you branded the queen with a micro chip? Wouldn't that prove the bees are yours even if you lost sight of the swarm?


----------



## RiodeLobo

lazy shooter said:


> I would like to produce 100 pounds of honey per year to give away to friends. Beyond that, I don't care. Obviously, if I made much more honey than I wanted to give away, I would sell it.
> In summary, I am a pure hobbiest and don't have a business plan. I guess I assumed there were more people like me. Maybe that goes to the old saw about assumption.


I am there with you. My current plan is to sustainably produce what I need for me and as gifts. If I ever want to make a business out of it than obviously the priorities change.

I am sorry but the comparison of feral honeybees to feral swine is just not accurate. If we removed all nonnative species that have been introduced in the last 500 years it would be a very different North America.


----------



## David LaFerney

Return on investment certainly does not have to be money. If you only want some honey to give away - surely we all do that - or pollination, or an interesting pass time those are all worthwhile rewards - or welcome fringe benefits. Whatever your goal is you are more likely to achieve it if you know what it is and conciously work toward it.


----------



## scottddove

interesting thread. I am going into my 5th year. I am not your typical person in the bees. I have 50 hives and fully intend to do this for a living. I have made lots of mistakes. I find myself in a strange place I will have a surplus of bees and want to make money but am hesitant to sale to people that I know. As a fairly new beekeeper myslef I know what they are thinking and it is hard to explain to them it probably is not what they think it is. I dont want my friends and family to have bad feeling towards me on account I really dont think they know what they are getting into. I sure did not. Sad thing is most of the the new keepers that buy will fall into the catagory of not having a clue what it is they are getting into. Beekeeping is not cheap to just jump into and I would have quit if I didnt have the mind set I got 1000 dollars in it I cant get out now so I pushed on got help and make a go of it. I am stlll in the red that is for sure but the secret to making it in beekeeping in my opinoin is haveing people to hands on help you and teach you. reading books is great but will not replace going into a yard with a real bee keeeper opening up some hives and getting your hands in there. As for a answer to the problem of why do they fail and how to stop the trend my answer is metoring. find yourself someone who is really willing to help you that knows what they are doing and you wont fail atleast not because you didnt know what you were doing. bees do die and it will happen but if you did all you could and should to prevent it you didnt fail nature stepped in took control.


----------



## Acebird

scottddove said:


> I am going into my 5th year. .... I have 50 hives and fully intend to do this for a living. ... I am stlll in the red that is for sure


If you research "starting a business" this would be a bad business plan and a reason for failure. It is not about bees, it is about running a business. Bees are secondary to the success of a business.


----------



## sqkcrk

David LaFerney said:


> Is there a way to tag a comment as off topic?t:


No. Why?


----------



## sqkcrk

bluegrass said:


> AHB is a hybrid between a domestic bee and a wild bee.


Define "wild" and tell me which ones were used to produce AHB. Are AHB domesticated? I didn't ask you if they were a hybrid or not. Are AHB domesticated?

Were the bees crossed w/ domestic bees kept by beekeepers? How was the hybrid produced?


----------



## David LaFerney

Ace - sounds to me like he is in a pretty good position to judge the merits of his own plan. What you may not realize yet is that you can either grow aggressively or you can try to make a profit, but doing both at the same time is likely to be an unrealistic expectation. Aggresive growth is an investment.


----------



## Fusion_power

> It is not about bees, it is about running a business.


A cattle rancher is not a cattle rancher. He is a grass farmer. Cows just happen to be 4 legged combines that harvest his grass.
A grass farmer is not really a grass farmer. He is a sunshine harvester and blades of grass just happen to be his solar collectors.
A bee keeper is not a bee keeper, he is a honey producer or a pollen spreader or a wax producer. The bees are just his 4 winged flying honey collectors/pollinators/wax producers.

Know thy true business!

DarJones


----------



## RiodeLobo

To me failure is a personal definition. It all depends on what your goals are. If you never reach them that could be failure, perhaps because of mismanagement, lack of knowledge or experience, a faulty plan, circumstances out of our control, or perhaps unrealistic goals. My goals are very different from someone who wants to make money in beekeeping.


----------



## sqkcrk

Failure is both objective and subjective. Someone may look at another person a consider them a failure from their perspective. Someone may look at themselves and consider themselves a failure. If you never tried, and wanted to but didn't, maybe that is a character failure. Or maybe you didn't get around to it.

Maybe we should be considering what it means to succeed. To me succeeding is trying and doing and continuing to learn and do. Getting better would be nice too. But, as long as the individual is satisfied, no one elses opinion matters. 'cept maybe the loan officer.


----------



## BeeGhost

sqkcrk said:


> But, as long as the individual is satisfied, no one elses opinion matters.


BINGO!! If I dont have a business plan and yet I am running 20+ hives and I am happy with how things are going...........then whos business is it to tell me I should do things different??

Now, if I am complaining that the bees are driving me into the poor house, and I didnt have a business plan to make money in the many ways that bee's can provide..............thats my fault and fire away!!

I was in the bee yard this morning checking the hives to see how things are going and checking reserves (its all good!) and got to sit in the middle of 3 hives orientating/cleansing without a veil on.............now that there is why I love beekeeping!!


----------



## sqkcrk

I was in the bee yard today too. Weren't any bees there tho. They are all in SC. I successfully moved a barrel of Orangeblossom honey from one bay of the building to another. I moved a pallet of deeps outdoors for the winter. I moved honey to the house for packing and shuffled some stuff around so I can fill nuc boxes w/ comb for Spring nucs. So, I wasn't a failure today. I succeeded in getting some things done. Let's see what tomorrow brings.


----------



## Acebird

BeeGhost said:


> If I dont have a business plan and yet I am running 20+ hives and I am happy with how things are going...........then whos business is it to tell me I should do things different??


IRS if you claim it is a business with deductions.


----------



## scottddove

I have read alot on here about buisiness plans and my plan is not wrote down it mainly cause a bee can't read anyway. I do what I need to do to make things happen and be preapared in advance. I have had to make more decisions as things get bigger and try to figure out which way to go to make money in the bees. At this time I am just shooting from the hip and as I learn more from others and see where my nitch will be I will foucus more in that area. But as far as a writen business plan I dont have one. As for making money and making a living I dont see it as brain surgery just a bee business with bee related things to sale. What do people want? I have had no trouble saleing anything yet(honey,wax candles,wood ware, bees,ect) only problem I have had is not enogh of it. I know how to fix that!! So my attitude is lets just see where it goes before I quit my day job.


----------



## BeeGhost

Acebird said:


> IRS if you claim it is a business with deductions.


Not claiming anything in my apiary...............everything is out of pocket and in the red............wait............what color comes after red!!LOL

Like I said, if I was to pursue a sideliner business, then I would come up with a plan. For now, its a hobby with no money changing hands, except my money going to Mannlake!!

Im quite sure that the IRS is not going to waste their time pursuing an income that nets under $1000 a year. Besides, isnt their a dollar amount before you have to start claiming income?? Im not a business man or know anything about the IRS, so its a legitimate question.................that is WAY off topic from the original thread.


----------



## lazy shooter

Fusion:

My dad and all the old time ranchers told me "We're in the grass business, and the cow is the vehicle of return." I keep 28 to 40 Black Angus mothers, and it is a hobby. I use them for ag exempt purposes, but there is precious little profit in cattle. Year in and year out, if you make 100 bucks per mother cow, it is acceptable, if you make 200 bucks per mom it is exceptional. I love the land, and keeping cattle allows me to treat the land in a more natural manner.

My bees are in the same vein, except I don't claim them on my taxes. I just love to watch them. Sometimes when returning from one of the pastures, I just pull up beside the hives and watch them.


----------



## Andrew Dewey

BeeGhost - there is no dollar amount below which you don't have to report to the IRS. What I do is list my bee related income as misc income and as I am already itemizing deductions, deduct the same amount as expenses on Schedule A - the result is no tax due on my rather limited bee income. There is a threshold to meet and itemizing deductions may not be beneficial for everyone so do your own research or talk with a tax person. (The big advantage to doing it this way instead of reporting the income and Expenses on Schedule C is the avoidance of self-employment taxes. My operation is very clearly a hobby.


----------



## Barry

bluegrass said:


> Sqeak:
> 
> Most texts would disagree with you:


I'm late to the party.

http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/overwintering-of-honey-bee-colonies/

"Honey bees, _Apis mellifera_ L., are kept by man in bee hives, but bees are not domestic animals in any sense of the word. Man adapted his handling and management of these insects by fitting his methods to meet their natural behavior. Bees are no different in their needs or behavior today than were the wild honey bees in the forests at the time of the cave man. When bees swarm from modern hives, they readily return to their wild condition. They have been on earth since the Jurassic period, 160 million years ago, and have survived without man’s help."


----------



## sqkcrk

Barry,
Did you also Post this on the Thread containing the Poll:Are European Honeybees Domestic? Thanks if you did.


----------



## Daniel Y

Regardless of what anyone will call them. Bees are not domesticated. You dog is domesticated, your cat is not. Think about the differences. If you took both and dumped them by the side of the road. The dog would starve the cat would not. The cat is the only undomesticated (Wild) animal that will choose to live with humans. They cannot be domesticated. Neither can the bee.


----------



## Fusion_power

It is not that cats are not domesticated, rather that cats have domesticated humans. After all, the cat puts up with humans, is fed by humans, given a warm place to sleep by humans. Humans are definitely domesticated.... by cats.

DarJones


----------



## FlowerPlanter

There are wild dogs (feral dogs), cats, horses, pigs, goats and bees all over this continent. People keep, hybrid, import as we see fit. Some we manage for food, some for pets and some for both.

Any argument that can be said about bees can also be said about cats, dogs, horses, chickens and cows...

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1020_041020_wild_bees.html
National Geographic refers to them as " domesticated honeybee"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_bee
"Apis mellifera, the most commonly domesticated species"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beekeeping
Domestication of wild bees in 2422BCE


Webster's
Domesticate: to adapt (an animal or plant) to life in intimate association with and to the advantage of humans

That would include cats, dogs, horses, chickens , cows, and bees.


----------



## sqkcrk

And all the different lice we carry around on our bodies? Or are we domesticated by them?


----------



## FlowerPlanter

You have lice

I don't have any lice:lpf:


----------



## sqkcrk

Maybe it's mites. I get them mixed up. heh,heh


----------



## JohnAllen

sqkcrk said:


> Maybe it's mites. I get them mixed up. heh,heh


I understand that hops are now being used to treat for mites. You should treat yourself with a remedy using hops as an ingredient.


----------



## sqkcrk

Systemically? Or propholactically? How do you know I haven't been already?


----------



## Fusion_power

From a strict standpoint, all humans have a type of mites. they are microscopic and are commonly found just beneath the skin on eyelashes. Delve around on the net and you will find reference to them.

DarJones


----------



## sqkcrk

Not to mention the ones under your couch eating all those pieces of skin you loose every day.


----------



## BeeGhost

Andrew Dewey said:


> BeeGhost - there is no dollar amount below which you don't have to report to the IRS.


Thanks for the insight Andrew!! I will keep that in mind if I get some extra honey to sell next year!! I know I dont want to get into trouble with the IRS, ive been there once when I was 22...........changed my claim to exempt and forgot to change it back after a couple checks (actually, the money was to good to change back!) and I ended up oweing $3000+ dollars to the IRS..............that sucked. That cut into my beer money!!


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

Why some beekeepers fail, maybe it should read why most beekeepers fail/---JUST TOO LAZY TO DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.-That is the short and long of it-PERIOD. TED


----------



## Acebird

Beekeeping is a guaranteed enerprise as long as you are willing to work, right Ted? I wonder how many comercial bee businesses there are that the owner making 6 figures doesn't work the bees?


----------



## Roland

If we define still being a beekeeper as not failing, I may know a little about that. 

I believe the single most important thing is the correct mindset. Anyone that believes they know more about bees than the bees do, is destined to fail. If you open a hive with the intent of making them do what you want them to do, you will fail. If you open the hive to see what they are telling you they need, you will succeed. 

Roland Diehnelt
5th Gen. comnmercial beekeeper.(Christian is 6th gen)
Linden Apiary, Est. 1852
I enjoy walking into the Hamilton Office of Dadant and calling them "rookies", with respect.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

Ace, What you get in return for your work when working with honeybees is directly proportional to how much work you put into them. It is the same as any small business. And Ace, Even though I have a couple of employees, I am working bees manual. You think I would trust my help to do the job exactly the way I want it-forget it. You will find most commercial beeks are working out in the bees. Even Richard Adee dons the bee veil at critical times. Roland is right, you have to have the right mindset also. TED


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI

Defining failure as failure to take hold, or in other words giving up, I think that new beekeepers fail because of the expense involved of repeatedly having to buy packages. 
This is because the methods taught on an average introductory course set a beekeeper up to use chemical methods to control mites, and these chemical methods do not fit into many new beekeepers' world view.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

And the average beekeeper that is brand new also does not have the beekeeping skill level to adapt chemical free methods either. So Adrian, what does a new beekeeper do then? I would suggest starting with something else beside packages. TED


----------



## Acebird

There are a number of businesses that don't require "working in the business" to become profitable and sustainable. Franchises require a lot of hands on work to start but if you have the business sense they require very little hands on work to sustain. Most businesses owners are motivated to this goal.
Beekeeping appears to be "nobody can replace me" attitude and that is a non sustaining business. So I would have to say that the attitude "nobody can replace me" is a big factor in beekeeping failures.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird,
Were you a Chef, you would not turn all cooking responsibilities over to hired help and never go back on the line and cook. Beekeeping, and Farming in general, is one of those businesses wherein the Boss, the Owner, knows the business, and enjoys the work and likes being where the action is, where the hands on work is done.

I don't know any beekeepers in NYS who don't have hands like the ones you will see in Michael Palmer's photos in the "How do you catch a queen?" Thread.

Some people, older people who can no longer work bees as well as they once could have will still get out in their bees. I don't see why this is difficult to understand. Or, maybe you are just asking questions to stimulate conversation again?


----------



## lazy shooter

Ted Kretschmann said:


> And the average beekeeper that is brand new also does not have the beekeeping skill level to adapt chemical free methods either. So Adrian, what does a new beekeeper do then? I would suggest starting with something else beside packages. TED


The above post defines my bee delemma. I had thought of bee keeping for the past few years, as a "good thing" to do for the environment. My ranch is to a great degree a toxic free operation. I don't inject cattle with anything, and I don't use herbicides or pesticides. If the army worms show up, they get to eat my cover crops. That's OK, as in my twilight years I can afford to feed the worms. My angus cattle are sold to a “free range marketing group” for slaughter.
With the above qualifier, a friend of mine found three complete bee hives three with deeps and 12 mediums that were filled with new frames with all the bells and whistles. The purchase price was only 250 bucks.

I bought them in the late fall and found out it was time to immediately purchase bees. I purchased three packages from an old and well established apiary in Texas. I read a wee bit and watched some bee package installations on the internet found myself in the bee business. Then came the drought and feeding and robbing and …..

Of course, it was my intention to raise chemical free bees. Eight months into this venture, my bees are still chemical free. What I didn’t understand, was that bees die and need to be replaced. To do this one needs to understand the various methods of making splits, rearing queens, installing new queens, formulating nucs and yada, yada, yada…….

Beekeeping has become a lot more learning intensive than I ever envisioned. Let me emphasize that I mean a LOT more learning intensive. Hey, at 72 years of age, I can afford to buy queens, nucs and the other essentials to raise chemical free bees, so you folks haven’t seen the last of me. But, I think Ted’s above quote is one reason we lose a lot of “would-be” beekeepers.


----------



## Daniel Y

sqkcrk, I find it amazing that you are offended that I might post an "In your opinion" unqualified comment. But you have no hesitation to think you can speak for all farmers. In fact I have an uncle that spent his entire life farming 4 sections of Kansas his entire life. And hated it. That farm was inherited in the past few years by his daughter. She loves farming and it is actually the only career she ever hoped to have. She turned the farm over to one of her cousins and his family and operates a flower shop. Maybe you should have done a little more reading on something before you spoke. or maybe owned a business or something. I am not really sure what you would consider adequate qualifications in this case. From what I can tell you need to go buy some more bees. Owning bees seems to be your only measure of a persons knowledge.

Actually Ace is correct in his point. I would say it more like Beekeeping is heavily dependent on one person and the knowledge they posses and the quality of the decisions they make. Where other businesses may depend on a network of people all with portions of the knowledge and skills required. It is true that most business owners understand that you do not get "Rich" by working for money. and since their objective is to make money they tend toward a hands off method of business ownership. This is not an across the board way business is done. it is just one way. It happens to be the way my cousin is running her 4 square miles of farm and will soon be the way she runs her flower shop. Hopefully she will return to a more active roll in the farm since that is where she is happy. But what makes you happy and what you do for your business seldom have anything to do with each other.


----------



## jeb532

2600 years ago Lao Tzu said..."if an unskilled person tries to cut wood like a master carpenter, he will only succeed in cutting his hand".

The same has got to be true for beekeeping...there are going to those first years where you just don't have a clue...and then there are going be a few years where the weather, bees, your own health, and "circumstances' just win out.

My grandpa kept bees for 75 years he said..."success comes from having enough patience to succeed."


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

Ace has TWO hives of bees and at the most TWO years of experience. So I ask you Daniel, how many hives do you have. There is NO comparison between the management of TWO hives AND TWO Thousand. Most commercial beekeepers and for that matter most smaller beekeepers FAIL when they do not get out and manage their bees personally. You can not depend on the hired help to do it right. You do it or the business literally dies. TED


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

Since bee businesses are usually family run and maintained enterprises, most eventually have the three generational curse. Granddaddy started the business and built it up. Dad expanded it and maintained it. And the Kids, well they usually want NO part of the bee business, so they usually "whiz" it away. It is a rare operation indeed that goes for generations. Several members of these operations post regularly and irregularly on Beesource. They are the backbone of the industry. It is these people that new beekeepers should try to emulate and ask questions. By doing so, they will learn much and prevent failure. NOT somebody with two hive and two years experience. Heck, they, themselves are still learning and larvae in the honeycomb cell. TED


----------



## markmaster

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Why some beekeepers fail, maybe it should read why most beekeepers fail/---JUST TOO LAZY TO DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.-That is the short and long of it-PERIOD. TED


Amen to that one, Ted -- in my short time working with bees and beeks, I have seen that the folks who lose interest the most quickly are those who go into beekeeping with a romanticized idea that they will be able to have happy little bees buzzing in their gardens WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING beyond setting up a hive or two. I have acquired several complete hive bodies and some odds-and-ends equipment from people who gave up after a single season ..... they didn't get any honey and their bees weren't pollinating the flowers and/or vegetables like they expected (one lady was surrounded by acres of privet, honeysuckle, blackberry, and cotton fields - and did not understand why her flower garden had so few bees visiting it!). Heck, I'm just beginning to understand that I have gotten myself into a retirement hobby that is more work than my previous job! It just happens to be so interesting that I have yet to stop wanting to learn more - sometimes from failures - and do more.


----------



## jeb532

As to my grandpa...he probably never had more than $1,000 in the bank at anytime in his 81 years of life...BUT, he was also the happiest person I have ever known. He has always been my measure of true success.


----------



## Roland

Acebird, step away from the cooking Sherry(sp?). You wrote:

Beekeeping appears to be "nobody can replace me" attitude and that is a non sustaining business.

What?

Listen to Ted. There is an acquired skill set that only comes with experience , and is necessary for the owner of the business to keep his/her hand in the bee hive to maintain that skill, and insure that the employees are using the proper methods.

Forgive me for blowing my own horn, but what part about being one of the oldest commercial(if not THE oldest) beekeeping families don't you understand? If we practice it , it MUST be the definition of sustainability. After 160 years, we must be doing something right????

NO offense intended, you have thick skin, or I would not have worded this as such.

Roland Diehnelt
Linden Apiary, founded in Milwaukee in 1852 by Christian Friedrich Diehnelt, formerly of Pappendorf Saxony.(Germany did not exist yet)


----------



## honeyshack

Ted, I agree. A beekeeper, a cattle producer, livestock producer has to get out into the field and work his/her animals. No hired hand will manage it the way the owner will. The hired hand will do what he can in the time he gets paid for. After that, oh well. To the hand it is a job. To the owner it is his/her life. The paycheck at the end of the year is only as good as the time the owner puts in it.
I have seen the results of a commercial beek who hired the hands to do the job while he spent his time in the office orgainzing his workers to do the job, doing the management duties of the farm. He trained his workers to do the work. That fall, lower honey production, and the following spring, alot of dead hives, alot of purchasing to gain back what was lost. After searching for answers, the realization was, the workers do not care as much as the owner. The owner has to be hands on to ensure quality, production and that the work gets done.
As a cattle producer it falls in the same way. Hire someone to look after your cattle and your cattle are never the same when you get them back. The calf death loss goes up, inputs go up, profit goes down.
There is a reason why some trades require the employees to have their own tools. It is becasue the employees will look after their own tools better than if the employeer supplied them. If they are supplied, they go missing, get tossed away, abused and missused. Some trades witch follow this mark are mechanics, cooks/chefs, carpenters, plumbers, electricians etc. 
Finally the mark of a good and profitable boss, is one who gets in the trenches. Who leads by example and who surrounds himself/herself with strong people to rely on to help. The mark of a good boss....from someone who has learned from good bosses...a good boss is someone who will pick up a broom to sweep the floor instead of deligating it to someone else. A good boss leads by example and the only way to lead by example is to do it. The one who leads by pushing a pencil is out of touch with what is going on on the floor of the business.


----------



## jeb532

Roland said:


> Linden Apiary, founded in Milwaukee in 1852 by Christian Friedrich Diehnelt, formerly of Pappendorf Saxony.(Germany did not exist yet)


Now that's something to be proud of!


----------



## BeeGhost

Thats another reason why beekeepers fail and leave beekeeping..............RESPECT. There are a lot of people on these boards that have bees.........but few have been doing it for generations, and those that have been doing it for generations have more knowledge than most on these boards. 

When someone new challenges people that are a wealth of knowledge and trying to prove them wrong, thats when the "old timers" or more experienced people just walk away and the knowledge of that person is lost. What do the "old timers" have to lose, nothing, they dont need someone new challenging them and arguing with them. What does the new person lose, and all others that are just starting...........a source of wealth of knowledge that has seen the ups and downs and are willing to share their hard earned opinons.

Everything I read that the "old timers" post I either apply to my little apiary or I just keep it in mind. I will never argue with someone who has more hands on experience than me, thats just respect. Something that was taught to me by my grandfather, father and other elders I grew up around.

Too all you beekeepers that have stayed with it for generations, or started on your own and have been doing it for years............I respect you and thank you for being a wealth of knowledge to me, perhaps I can pay it back to the newbies like me someday!! Oh Ya, and I got into beekeeping last year and wont be giving it up until someone knocks on the beehives and tells them I am gone!!


----------



## Daniel Y

Isn't what I said consistant with your comment Ted? Or did you bother to even read it? I said "Beekeeping is heavily dependent on one person and the knowledge they posses and the quality of the decisions they make" Not all businesses are. In fact in many businesses it is a goal for it to not be dependent on any one person. It makes the business fragile. I read another post this morning where a beekeeper had I think 6 hives all doing well and then had to have emergency surgery. All of his hives but one failed. This is a direct example of how this reliance on one individual can and will contribute to the failure of an apiary. So it is a contributing factor as to why beekeepers fail. No backup.

As for this whole bee owning thing. I understand that actually working with bees has advantages that you cannot get from reading or asking about them. I don't agree it is some all in all qualification of knowledge. There are hundreds of other things to look at when considering the quality and accuracy of what other say. One big one is just what they say and what it reveals about the general intelligence. Seriously if an idiot owns 500 hives he is still an idiot, right? 
Regardless, I get it you and a few others think that I can't possibly know anything about anything cause I don't own bees. What I don't get is that you all seem to think I might forget it cause you seem to want to follow me around and remind me of it at every opportunity. So, I promise to remember that you think I don't know anything.

Since you all seem to be really hung up on just what my resume is. Here it is.
42 years of studying bees, bee behavior and the diseases that affect them, the history of keeping them and many other related subjects. I have never owned bees because I have never owned a place to keep them, that coupled with the fact that I have moved from location to location nearly every year of my life up to my early 20's and have been focused on family and career since then. At the first opportunity to own bees I was stung and had a severe reaction while in the process of making my first hive. Although I have never owned bees I have 40 years of experience working with them. I worked inside the first hive at the age of 10. Owned my first hive at the age of 14 although I never had bees in it due to moving a few months later. Was first taught about beekeeping by my Great Grandfather that had something like 70+ years experience with bees and I have no idea how many hives. I will just say a barn full.
I managed my fathers farm which included a dog kennel, hog operation, 20 acre wheat field, 700 rabbits and a host of other animals such as horses, sheep and cattle from the age of 13. I owned my first agricultural business at the age of 14 as well as worked two hourly jobs and worked for a chicken hatchery that was within walking distance of our farm. A a hobby I have kept a long list of various animals such as keeping and breeding of tropical fish, Exotic birds, The usual assortment of pets that children have like hamsters, guinea pigs, Gerbils, rats, mice, etc. all of which I successfully bred and kept and manged to make them pay for themselves. I have never kept any animal that I did not start breeding. I owned an award winning collection of reptiles at the age of 18 which was mainly comprised of snakes. I owned my second business at the age of 18 which was a construction related business. this business failed due to being a partnership. In my lifetime I have owned 4 businesses other than the two already mentioned. One currently still in operation which is also construction related. I also have also had a full time hourly position with the State of Nevada for the past 24 years as Maintenance Repair Specialist II. I am primarily self taught in all areas of residential construction and have a degree from the University of Nevada in Facility Maintenance as well as a certificate of appreciation from Senator Harry Reid for my part in pioneering the development of this degree in general. At that time U.N.R was the only University in the world that offered such a degree and it was developed and designed for the specific need of the class room and hands on training that the Unions now require. Even though I was officially enrolled as a student. It was well know that I already had the knowledge and skill that these courses covered. In actual class time I was given a certain number of students that I took aside and taught them skills beyond the curriculum of the class schedule. I also worked with any student that was lagging behind in any particular skill. Given them tips and hints on just how to accomplish a given task. Sweating copper fittings for example is a skill that requires more than just doing x,y and z. it requires developing a "Touch" I would help students find this "Touch".
My hobbies not including those that involved living things. Are woodworking, metal working, drawing, drafting, painting, Playing the guitar, signing, gardening, In woodworking specifically I tend to focus on making custom writing instruments, Peppermills and other small items such as candle holders etc. I tend to spend more time at a wood lathe than any other machine in my shop. My work is in fact so lathe oriented that I own three of them. I also make smoking pipes and as a related subject grow my own tobacco.
Keeping bees is only new to me because it is bees and not any one of the hundreds of other animals I have kept. I am more than aware of the value of actual hands on experience. I am also perfectly aware of the limits of that value. I also know that it is not as some of you think some sort of qualifier of knowledge by any means.
Not to toot my horn but there is a quality I posses that requires some example to describe, To everyone that knows me including the very position I have at my full time job. I am known as the person you give the job that cannot be done to. Because in the words of many "I can do anything" Now just so you know I disagree with that, but at the same time I have done some very difficult things. Here are two examples.
The University built a multi million dollar fire science academy. Due to ground water contamination when the sprinkler system for the lawn and landscape was turned on the sidewalks and the buildings where stained with a rust brown mineral that caused an estimated 13 million dollars in damage to a brand new facility that had not even had it ribbon cutting yet. The opening of the facility was actually delayed by one year due to this. During that time the collective minds of an entire university could not find a solution to clean it up and legal action against the contractor began. In preparation for this law suit the lawyers advised the Facilities Department that they make an attempt with anything possible to prove the stains could not be removed. they sent me. Keep in mind they where sending me 300 miles to do a job they thought could not be done. It was expected that all I would do is prove it could not be done. In fact they where sending what was in there mind there best shot at fixing the problem so there could be no doubt that it could not be done. Three hours after arriving at the facility I was calling the main office with a list of materials and equipment I woudl need to clean the place up. 7 days and 2 additional employees, 3 environmental body suits, respirators, and 55 gallons of hydrochloric acid later the facilities where clean of all stains. A significant portion of the law suit against the contractor was dropped and the contractor agreed out of court to settle the remainder of the suit.

Last year I decided to grow my own tobacco. I found a group such as this one. It was pretty much the opinion of anyone that knew anything about growing tobacco that a tobacco plant needs 9 square feet of space to grow. I planned on growing it in 5 gallon buckets with approximately 1 square foot of space per plant. As a result I grew 135 tobacco plants in a total space including walking areas of 220 square feet. Other than some early issue with getting proper water and fertilizer correct I produced as much tobacco from those plants as the professionals would have with their 9 sq feet per plant requirements.

Those are just two stories out of dozens I could tell. I have a very strong sense of what I can do more importantly I have a strong since of what I cannot do. I also tend to know when I have enough information and when I do not. I am often asked if I can do this or that. Many times my answer is. "I've never done it before but I can figure it out". And nobody knows this is true about me than those that know me best.

back to the subject of owning bees being some requirement. I don't discount it as completely unimportant. But I also do not over rate it's importance. In fact I already do not think that keeping bees will be that great of a challenge. Full of problems most likely, but I actually see the greatest obstical is weather the bees can even stay alive or not. No amount of knowledge or experience is going to change the fact that bees simply die. I am told to read, read, read. All this information I am supposed to be gathering is written by some of the most influential keepers in the last 100 years of so. What this says to me is that these are the people most responsible for the current condition of the bee. I don't think it is that cut and dried any more than I think ownership of bees is all that. But if you want to know the quality of someones skill, wouldn't you look at the results of there work? That seems a bit obvious to me. and when I look at the Honey Bee I don't mean to be insulting. But I simply am not impressed with the results of all this experience. It may very well be that it is as good as it gets. But that does not change the fact that the best is pretty pathetic. If you work in a sewage plant the smell only gets so good. I have followed the advice to read everything I can find. to study and learn. But for me there is an additional thought going on. I already consider that all I am doing is learning a lot about what not to do. because much of the things in those books are exactly what have lead to the condition the bee is in today. I have not yet sorted one from the other for this reason every bit of advice is suspect of being bad advice. It sort of leaves me with this overall opinion. If you are keeping bees you are most likely killing them. In addition it leaves me with the understanding that from all the advise I find. even the very best advice is bad advice. I don't find anything in that where I should be in awe of anyone's accomplishments. Take that as an insult if you wish or take it as just a reflection on the truth. As far as I am concerned the bee is a mess and it is a result of the beekeeper and what they think. Because of that anyone on these forums that thinks they should follow the teaching of those from that past already have about two strikes against them. I see time and time again that people consider it keeping bees when their bees are dying left and right. They are not keeping bees they are replacing bees. That may be as good as it gets but I will never call such management "Keeping of bees" So no I don't own bees, I also do not keep bees. I think those before me have made that an impossibility. 
Now you might see a little of why I do not attempt to explain what I see and how I see it. I think it best that you accept that you have your opinion and I have mine and that we disagree. explaining myself to you or anyone else simply is not necessary or worth the time it requires. I never asked for anyone's permission to think and I don't intend to. I don't think you have a genuine interest in knowing anything about me anyway. I don't think you ask how long i have kept bees because you actually have any interest in how long I have kept bees. Because of this alone I do not think you question is deserving of an answer. I chose to write this as an answer so that when it comes up again I can say I have answered that question so you can find it and read it. Those that really want to know will. those that don't won't. But I have given my answer.


----------



## sqkcrk

Ted Kretschmann said:


> So I ask you Daniel, how many hives do you have.


Daniel has rebuked me for speaking to generally abouit farmers, which makes me just as bad as he when he wrote about a time when Carpenters made all their tools. So noted, Daniel. I should only speak about that which I know.

My Grandpa worked his Iowa farm every day of his life, along w/ his children until they went off to College, and w/ Uncle Gordon, until Grandpa died. Just 10 years short of when Uncle Gordon got the machinery paid off.

Nat Snare, who I milked for, worked her farm every day. Sure she had hired help, but she never left the farm for any length of time. She loved the place and had no need for travel.

So was this true w/ all the other farmers I have worked for, mostly dairy farmers.

All the Beekeepers I know, even those w/ hired help, work their bees themselves right along w/ the help. The help is capable of doing what needs doing, but the owners like what they do and both the owners and the hired help compliment each other and stimulate getting just one more yard done.

I don't know that any of the beekeepers I know who have hired help have an atitude of "It won't get done w/out me." or "Nobody does it better." Mostly they are the kind of people who wouldn't ask those who work w/ them to do something they wouldn't do themselves. You won't find a one of them sitting in the truck staying dry and warm, on a cold and rainy day, while the rest of the crew is getting soaked to the bone.

Commercial beekeepers don't have the luxury of doing what needs doing when they want to do it. They have to do what needs doing whenever it needs doing, regardless of weather or other circumstances.

Let's not forget that no one will do for your business that which you will. And, let's not forget the time when an owner left for the Almonds so he could be ready to unload when his bees got there, leaving his workers to load the semis for him. His help loaded the hives through the day, rather than early in the morning and late in the evening. The result was that the field force was left in the loading yard, not in the beehives.


----------



## sqkcrk

Well, I guess there is no denying DanielYs 40 years experience and all. I guess I'll give him a break.

In the future, when someone comes out w/ an outrageous statement I hope they will be willing to answer when asked where the idea came from. I will answer such questions. Will others?


----------



## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Well, I guess thyere is no denying DanielYs 40 years experience amd all. I guess I'll give him a break.


Was that 40 years of experience "Not having any bees??" - or did I miss something.... it was a pretty long diatribe.

Some of these threads get a little - weird.


----------



## Acebird

Daniel Y said:


> But what makes you happy and what you do for your business seldom have anything to do with each other.




What makes you happy is more likely a hobby not a business (if you like hands on). I suspect there are some people in this world that know more about bees then some commercial beekeepers but have never owned a beekeeping business.


----------



## lazy shooter

Well, my qualifications for bee consulting are the following:


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Let's not forget that no one will do for your business that which you will.


It does happen but very infrequently that an employee will have the same enthusiasm about a business that the owner does. The owner takes the risk so he has to be dedicated to survive.

I see beekeeping as a farming business and I am sure the small farmer could not believe he could be replaced by a machine. That is only natural. I suspect that China doesn't have any or very few privately owned bee businesses yet they produce more honey than any other country. OK I will say it. A company like Monsanto could easily buy up all the commercials and even the mom and pops, consolidate equipment, standardize procedures and probably outproduce what is produced in this country. There is no doubt in my mind about that. The operations would very much look like the Big Ag of today, crazy as it sounds.


----------



## sqkcrk

lazy shooter said:


> Well, my qualifications for bee consulting are the following:


 Yer justa lazy shooter.  whatever that means. heh,heh

Took a break and successfully completed some bee work.

Almost all of my Workers have six legs and don't need direction or supervision to do what needs doing. I just have to know how to get along w/ them and treat them properly so my needs are met by meeting their needs.


----------



## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> OK I will say it. A company like Monsanto could easily buy up all the commercials and even the mom and pops, consolidate equipment, standardize procedures and probably outproduce what is produced in this country. There is no doubt in my mind about that. The operations would very much look like the Big Ag of today, crazy as it sounds.


Yes Ace... but why have they not done it. Seems l like everybody I know has a few hog houses or chicken houses all owned by one giant company. Something must be keeping big ag away from bees or they would have done it long ago.


----------



## lazy shooter

I have worked in the oil patch for the past 52 years. Ever since I started in the oil patch, there has been talk of the major service companies, such as Halliburton and Schlumberger buying all of the independent service companies (the moms and pops). When the oil prices were cheap the majors bought the miners at alarming rates, but as soon as oil price turned up the moms and pops would come back. Big companies are bulky and slow, moms and pops are small and mobile. I don't think Monsanto can buy us out. I don't think they can coerce us out. We are here to stay.


----------



## David LaFerney

Something must be keeping big ag away from bees or they would have done it long ago....

If I was big ag and I wanted to get into the honey production business (or socks, or toys, or TVs...) I would probably do it in China,where labor is cheap and regultion is not existant. Then I would flood the market in the industrial coutries with cheap honey until the domestic producers could barely make a profit..... it's a proven business model.

But hey, at least you know where you can get every day low prices.


----------



## Roland

Acebird wrote:

China doesn't have any or very few privately owned bee businesses yet they produce more honey than any other country.

Waaaaaaaaiiiiitttt. Rethink that after tasting the "honey" they send over. Please "do over".

SQKCRK wrote:

I just have to know how to get along w/ them and treat them properly so my needs are met by meeting their needs. 

Now that's the winning attitude. Our Grandchildren will be doing business.

Crazy Roland


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

HPM, It was forty years studying bees while not owning any. There is no comparison between reading and studying for four decades or hands on working bees for four decades, being trained by some of the best-weavers, jim powers, thomas norman, operating your own bees in a business format and surviving successfully the onslaught of all the pestilence that have hit us to date and outlasting all the other operations in my own state.. It is like comparing the size of marbles to oranges. Daniel, I recommend that you get some hands on experience. Sounds like you would be a good bee breeder with all your animal husbandtry skills but you will have to have several hundred colonies to do so. TED


----------



## Gypsi

lazy shooter said:


> Well, my qualifications for bee consulting are the following:


And mine are:


----------



## jeb532

Seems to me that a beekeeping "business" is just like any other business, The "CEO", or "Proprietor", or otherwise number one owner of the company is going to have the biggest financial and emotional stake in seeing the company survive...and those who work for them will range from those who care just as much to those who just don't give a flip beyond their next paycheck.

The employees will all have "talent" in various proportions. Some "employees" talent(s) will even exceed those of the "CEO" and in fact may have been hired to fill a gap the "CEO" couldn't...but in the end the "CEO" makes the final decisions...good or bad...and the company's fate ultimately rides along with the those decisions. Even in a family run business, one person will ultimately be the defacto decision maker.

Nothing is ever truly run by a "committee". One person on the committee will always end up being the "revered" member...either through domination, talent, respect, or deception ...and enough of the other members will subconsciously, or knowingly, march in step to essentially negate the effect of having a committee in the first place.

If you are a one person beekeeping business, you will have all the same problems as a "big" beekeeping business - minus the employee management aspect. The magnitude of the bee related problems may vary as compared to a large operation, but the chances for failure or success will not.


----------



## tsmullins

Today, it is my opinion the number 1 cause of failure, is the Varroa mite. The Varroa mite is probably in every hive in America. Times are different than when my granddad had bees. 

Shane


----------



## Gypsi

Excellent points Jeb. I've run a sole proprietorship for the last 12 years, and every word rings true. 

And the varroa mite seems to be a "mite" more implicated in CCD than I thought they were when I was painting powdered sugar on my bees. There was a really great article on the absconding thread.

Gypsi


----------



## Acebird

Very good jeb.
My brother once told me that a business is either growing or it is dieing because if it is coasting it is really dieing at a slow rate. Some competitor is slowing taking over your business but you don't know it yet. It took me a while to understand what he was saying but over the years I see he is right.


----------



## D Semple

I think we make it too easy for beginners and they get in to beekeeping only half committed.

Better they should have to make their first few hives from scratch and catch a swarm or two to get started.

Easy come, easy go regards

Don


----------



## Gypsi

Growth is relative. It isn't all in the employee numbers (I have zero employees - seasonal sub-contractors). It is in the bottom line and the mileage log. As my competitors bailed out, I've noted I drive more and more. The drought will reduce my range, though, water restrictions in many of those areas.


----------



## jim lyon

jeb532 said:


> Even in a family run business, one person will ultimately be the defacto decision maker.
> 
> Nothing is ever truly run by a "committee". One person on the committee will always end up being the "revered" member...either through domination, talent, respect, or deception ...and enough of the other members will subconsciously, or knowingly, march in step to essentially negate the effect of having a committee in the first place.


Jeb: What you say is true in the the majority of instances. Speaking for myself, and perhaps I am just fortunate in this regard, but my son Jeff and I perhaps have a unique relationship in the management of the business. We discuss things in depth and have always had the ability to congenially defer to the person who has the strongest opinion on a particular subject. We each have respect for the others unique talents and rarely truly butt heads on anything. Jeff spent several years working in queen production in Hawaii and has a broader perspective on some breeding issues and, in fact, may have better true beekeeping instincts than I do. On the other hand I make the final decisions on major expenditures after a lot of in depth discussion on where the needs are the greatest. In all the day to day operations I think we have both learned when to pick our battles, to always respect the other person and not to do any petty second guessing. My father and Uncle had a successful partnership as well for about 25 years and it ended amicably when the next generation came of beekeeping age. Sure there were always some arguments but at the end of the day there was always respect for each other and the goal of the common good. These types of relationship may be rare, it takes two similar personalities to pull it off but I have seen them work first hand.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

So Jim, Your son went through the Hawaiian school of queen breeding also. I went through back in 1984 working for Binford Weaver/Kona Queen Co. and Jim Powers/Powers apiaries. TED


----------



## jim lyon

Yeah he spent quite a bit of time there in the mid 90's helping Gus and Bob still keeps in contact with them some, also got to know a lot of hard working guys there at least one of which has become a regular poster on here. They are a great source of advice when things arent running as smoothly as we would like.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

Gus was manager when I was there for Kona Queen and Alan Luce (deceased) for Powers Apiaries. Some of the best beekeepers in the nation go, work, learn and return in Hawaii. I am sure that Gus trained Jeff well. TED


----------



## jim lyon

I would be remiss not to mention Binford and his late brother Roy S. Weaver jr. as a couple of guys that I had the utmost respect for growing up. I know of no other people in this industry that had more respect than those two, I even had the privilege of meeting Roy Sr and his brother Howard. Excellent beekeepers all but above all wonderful gentlemen.


----------



## Daniel Y

My question is, What does it matter. To answer your question. 40 years working with others with their bees. As I said. I have never owned bees because I have never owned a place to have them. I also recognize the difference between helping with bees and owning bees. I helped my Great Grandfather for many years. I don't think he owned a bee suit, veil or even a smoker. He was as likley to just kill off a colony of bees in order to harvest just one quart of honey as to put up with them stinging. As you can suspect not the best quality mentoring. He got colonies and even told me this is the way to do it by setting up a hive and waiting for a colony to move in. He taught to boil the frames and bodies in water with peach leaves in them. Not sure if that was meant to be a lure or what. I never had the chance to try it but I also know he was never without hives. I never heard him mention a hive dying. He killed a few but I don't think they ever died. Anyway not exactly the best of experience. So no experience really doesn't count for much regardless of how much stock others want to put in it. I look a whole lot more at how is a keeper fairing right here right now with the bees they have today. i am really not concerned with how they got there if they can manage bees now.

I do not have one day of owning my own bees. I loved and respected my Great Grandfather and his 70 some years of owning bees. But I will say hands down I could right here where I set run circles around him in bee management. So this whole how long have you owned bees is nothing but some lame thoughtless questions that some have decided means something. Again my queston. What does it matter?



hpm08161947 said:


> Was that 40 years of experience "Not having any bees??" - or did I miss something.... it was a pretty long diatribe.
> 
> Some of these threads get a little - weird.


----------



## jim lyon

Daniel Y said:


> So this whole how long have you owned bees is nothing but some lame thoughtless questions that some have decided means something. Again my queston. What does it matter?


I must be missing something here :scratch: . I dont think I would be going out on a limb by suggesting that those with longer experiences in beekeeping might be better qualified to analyze why some have succeeded while so many others have failed. I can make a pretty long list of successes and a really, really, really long list of failures based on the folks that I have come in contact with through the years.


----------



## sqkcrk

jim lyon said:


> Yeah he spent quite a bit of time there in the mid 90's helping Gus and Bob still keeps in contact with them some, also got to know a lot of hard working guys there at least one of which has become a regular poster on here. They are a great source of advice when things arent running as smoothly as we would like.


So, does he know either Joseph Koehring or Lynn Barton, or both?


----------



## sqkcrk

Daniel Y said:


> What does it matter?


What comes to mind is someone who has flown many flights in the ****pit of an airliner, has read everything there is to read about flying, but has never had the controls in his hands. I wouldn't want to be a passenger on that persons first flight. I wouldn't want to take instruction from that person either.

I read your resume and it is quite impressive. If I needed advice in your area of expertise I would ask it of you. I'll also avoid public comment to your Posts, since we aren't exactly on cordial terms due to that other Thread.


----------



## Gypsi

sqkcrk said:


> What comes to mind is someone who has flown many flights in the ****pit of an airliner, has read everything there is to read about flying, but has never had the controls in his hands. I wouldn't want to be a passenger on that persons first flight. I wouldn't want to take instruction from that person either.


I'll second this. I went and looked at a friend's bees Saturday. I am now grateful for the experience of being in my suit, and my hive, all last summer. There is NOTHING like hands on experience. And good vision (he can barely see his bees, but they are alive. 40 miles away from robbers...)

Gypsi


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

Mark may avoid the question "what does it matter" but I will not. I have kept bees for almost forty years. I was commercial at age 17. So for someone that wants to learn beekeeping. Who would be the most qualified to teach them beekeeping. Someone that has forty years of just reading books about the subject. OR someone that has forty years of hands on working thousands of colonies year in and out. Go and get you some bees before you try to charade and parade as someone in the know. You gotta walk the walk before you can talk the talk. TED


----------



## sqkcrk

Gypsi,
give robbers a break. Get off the robbers track already. It's not like the bees who robbed your hive preformed a home invasion. Your colony was weak to begin with.
Thanks,
Mark

Happy New Year and I hope you get a strong nuc this year and don't have a drought. Peace.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> What comes to mind is someone who has flown many flights in the ****pit of an airliner, has read everything there is to read about flying, but has never had the controls in his hands.


You would do better to compare flying a helicopter because a plane will fly itself. Anyone can fly an airplane with very little hands on training. Navigation, that is a little different. When there is a skill involved experience counts. That would be flying a helicopter. If I were to make a comparison I would say that beekeeping is more know how than experience, similar to flying an airplane. For the same reason, anyone can do it. I don't see a huge amount of skill required, know how yes, I do see that.


----------



## xcugat

*DO IT* and *learn* thats all there is---no need for big ole metaphors

Also, do not take what you read here or in a book as gospel you need to see what actually *works for you* and your *climate*


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> I don't see a huge amount of skill required, know how yes, I do see that.


You are entitled to your opinion. Especially since your experience owning bees is greater than some. I agree w/ you to a certain extent.

I think the skill in beekeeping is knowing when to apply the know how. One needs the experience to know when to apply the know how.


----------



## Solomon Parker

Acebird said:


> Anyone can fly an airplane with very little hands on training.


Upon what do you base this?


----------



## Gypsi

Mark,

there wasn't a bee within 15 miles of me til I lost a swarm in May. I'm trapping them. Before I bring one more store-bought bee home. I can't afford to lose the cost of a nuc on bees, if it is possibly avoidable. I'm not in this to create an under-hive moneypit. (from the undersea money pit of reefkeeping.)

And if the weather man is right, we have el nina and we STILL have drought. We are a foot below where we should be for rainfall. It is beautiful and sunny out, not raining, not snowing. 

I appreciate your good wishes, but I have to deal with what is. And except for the sunshine, it ain't pretty!

Gypsi


----------



## jim lyon

Gypsi said:


> Mark,
> 
> there wasn't a bee within 15 miles of me til I lost a swarm in May.


You are aware that would be an area of over 700 square miles?


----------



## Barry

Acebird said:


> I don't see a huge amount of skill required, know how yes, I do see that.


When one is skillful, they have the know-how to make them skillful.


----------



## sqkcrk

Gypsi said:


> Mark,
> there wasn't a bee within 15 miles of me til I lost a swarm in May.


Are you saying that the swarm you lost in May are the same bees you refer to as "robbers"? That's possible, I guess.


----------



## Gypsi

It is probable they were my swarm. The only reason I bought a hive is no one's garden was pollinated in 2010. Maybe not 15 miles but since I've joined the bee club locally, no one is closer to me than that range, and no gardeners near me had bees. 

I didn't wake up one day and say, gee, I want to dress from head to toe in white and take care of critters trying to sting me. I didn't want to take on another scientific field, I didn't have time. I run a small business, keep my home up myself, and garden. 

Some bees find my ponds most summers. None did in 2010. None in early 2011 except the hive I bought. When they swarmed I didn't own a suit yet, and was absolutely not competent to catch the football sized swarm. The robbers started with me. My karma. But with the continued drought, if bees turn up here, I do not wish to spend more money on bees, only to have to fight for them. I will trap robbers, or let robbers pollinate my garden and wait until the drought breaks, a year or 2. 

Gypsi


----------



## Acebird

Solomon Parker said:


> Upon what do you base this?


Experience. A plane will fly itself you only need to learn to trim it. Its a pretty simple machine.


----------



## Barry

With that statement, oh forget it, it wouldn't make any sense to you.


----------



## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> Experience. A plane will fly itself you only need to learn to trim it. Its a pretty simple machine.


Golly... You just can not make this stuff up!!


----------



## jim lyon

Why do you folks have to make things so complicated? Beekeepers fail because airplanes can fly themselves. What's so hard to understand about that?


----------



## Andrew Dewey

The mystery has been explained! Thanks Jim!


----------



## Gypsi

Jim,

I bow to your wisdom....

:applause:


----------



## Gypsi

jim lyon said:


> You are aware that would be an area of over 700 square miles?


As I remember South Dakota and Texas aren't that different. A lot of open semi-barren land? I live between that - mainly cattle ranging, not ag, and a major city with pollution, cars and bug spray. 15 miles, 700 square miles, 900 square miles, this is not exactly an orchard area. The trees are oak and hackberry, pecans pretty dense about 40 miles southwest, lots of dead grass due to drought, the price of beef will be very high if this continues, don't know where hay is being shipped in from. urban flower beds with gardens in them, no bees (those are 12 miles away - I get around a lot). Those fancy urban homes have fancy urban pest control companies.


----------



## sqkcrk

Gypsi said:


> I will trap robbers, or let robbers pollinate my garden ...
> 
> Gypsi


This is what gets me. You seem to always refer to bees that come around your place as robbers. Were the bees that visited your garden, before you owned bees, robbers? Or were they just bees?

If you trap robbing bees, you will end up w/ a handfull of bees and nothing more. Then they will die and you won't have bees again. So, you better hope for a swarm. Which you probably won't get, because there aren't any bees w/in 15 miles. Except for the swarm which left your hive last May, which has a good chance of dying this winter.


----------



## sqkcrk

If I ever fly again, I'm going to check the IDs of the pilots to make sure their names aren't Acebird.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

That is a crash and burn statement-Acebird airlines....


----------



## Gypsi

sqkcrk said:


> This is what gets me. You seem to always refer to bees that come around your place as robbers. Were the bees that visited your garden, before you owned bees, robbers? Or were they just bees?


I will wait and see. I am not going to order packages. I may get a nuc as part of a group purchase when my local bee club orders bees, which they won't do until around February. If I do not see bees in my garden. If I already have wild bees, feral bees, someone else's bees there, and I don't buy bees, I will not have a robbing situation. I am taking financial hits in my main business due to the drought, with more to come. I am not adding another financial hit at 50 lb bags of sugar and dead bees. It's my budget.

I did plant, and will plant more, bee flowers. Which I have always done. My yard has more pollen-laden plants than grass, most of them drought hardy native type varieties. I already attract mason bees, had quite a few last summer, without buying any. Many things I can pollinate by hand, tomatoes, not so much. But 15 tomatoes I can buy at the store for about, $30? I spent $300 on a hive last year, and that was ONLY the beginning.


----------



## libhart

What a thread  I'll elaborate on Acebird's airplane analogy since it almost made some sense to me. Flying an airplane via know-how may be like keeping bees via know-how, but only as long as everything is going great...smooth blue skies, no storms or turbulent air anywhere, and the plane purring like a kitten. The skill comes when you start losing fuel for no explainable reason and your starboard engine catches fire and you now have to know how to...holy crap...land the thing while it's one fire plummeting toward terra firma. Or, in other words, your bees swarm no matter how you tried to stop them and the new queen of a population-decimated hive has terrible mating weather for 2 weeks straight and holy crap, you have a pollination contract to fill and your queen isn't laying and.....you get the idea. That's where the skill is.


----------



## libhart

BTW gypsi, you should seriously look into bee lining. This is a lost art and would be really cool to learn to do it. This is just my terribly naive understanding of it so I may be way off but someone can correct me if needed. Essentially you capture a number of bees that you believe to be from the same hive in a small box. Special boxes were often designed so that you could safely only release a single bee at a time. You immediately release one bee and follow it as best you can, making the assumption that after being a bit stressed by being captured in your box she'll go straight home. Follow it as far as you can. Once you lose site of it, you release another and follow that one as far as you can. If you can follow them far enough and you have enough bees, you can find the colony. Who knows, maybe they're just in a dead tree somewhere and you could cut them out and hive them w/o much trouble.


----------



## sqkcrk

libhart,
do you think someone who has only read about flying would even be able to start a 747?


----------



## Gypsi

I have trailed them - they cross the cemetery and are either in a tree in it (private property) or get into a fairly heavily populated part of Fort Worth. I spaced feeders out last fall, and watched their direction when they left. Running around checking feeders in traffic, in dense population areas where there isn't an unoccupied space to put one, and a part of the city where you don't exactly leave the keys in the truck, I lost them.


----------



## Scrapfe

honeyshack said:


> ... a cattle producer, livestock producer has to get out into the field and work his/her animals. No hired hand will manage it the way the owner will...


I can not agree more. There is an old adage that goes something like, "Nothing fattens the calf like the eye of its master." The same is true for most businesses.


----------



## honeyshack

A robbing situation occurs only when the hive which is attempted to be robbed by honeybees is weak. A strong healthy hive will defend itself. Prevent swarming and keep the hive strong, and you will have no robbing problems. Problems start, reduce entrances and boxes to enable the hive to defend itself.

libhart...interesting.



Acebird said:


> Anyone can fly an airplane with very little hands on training. Navigation, that is a little different. .


Ace, husband laughed when i read him your post. He is a pilot, private, not commercial, spent alot of training hours to get his licience to develope the skills needed to fly a plane properly and handle all situations handed to him.


----------



## Barry

I get it, Ace was talking about this:


----------



## Michael Bush

Perhaps the point some people are trying to make, contrary to the "you get out what you put in" is that fact that you can put a lot in and get nothing out if you don't put your efforts in the right places.

"The master accomplishes more and more by doing less and less until finally he accomplishes everything by doing nothing." --Laozi, Tao Te Ching 

"Perfection in beekeeping is not found in a multiplicity of appliances, but in simplicity and the elimination of everything not absolutely essential" --Brother Adam, In Search of the Best Bee Strains 

"Progress doesn't come from early risers - progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things." --Robert Heinlein 

"It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential."--Bruce Lee 

"In general, the simpler the system, the more efficient and the larger the amount of work which can be accomplished in a given time."--Frank Pellet, Practical Queen Rearing


----------



## sqkcrk

"Not my pig, not my farm."

Been waiting all day to use that. Heard it on "A word for the wise." today, on NPR. Does anyone else have a saying simmilar to that?


----------



## honeyshack

does this count
"If you are going to have livestock, you are gonna have dead stock"


----------



## sqkcrk

Here's one for ya Michael.

"The work is done by those who show up." unattributed
"Showing up is half the job." unattributed


----------



## sqkcrk

honeyshack said:


> does this count
> "If you are going to have livestock, you are gonna have dead stock"


Well, not exactly what I meant. More like "I don't have a dog in this fight.", meaning it is if no concern of mine.


----------



## honeyshack

sorry


----------



## sqkcrk

No problem.


----------



## libhart

Gypsi said:


> I have trailed them.... I lost them.


Ah bummer.


----------



## Gypsi

If they make it through the winter, and they get hungry, they'll be back. And I have a nice bait hive waiting for when they start throwing off swarms. They are very tough bees - real judo types, truly impressive.. If they make it through the winter, I have tons of flowers and stuff for bait, and a nice home waiting. I still have 20 lbs of sugar left, and that is after my holiday baking. If I do not have bees this year, it will not be a tragedy. But I have friends who will call me if they see a swarm too, and now I have a suit, and tools and knowhow. (still haven't built the beevac). Not only that if I had to do a house cutout - I have the tools to repair the house. And the crews.

Why do some beekeepers fail? Because they quit. I haven't precisely quit. I have quit throwing money away though. I want something for my investment in time and cash. I am finishing my August bookkeeping tonight, I spent my bookkeeping time tending and learning bees.

That time was also an investment, the improvements made to my property, my equipment, all that will wait for weather-break, the end of the drought, but it will probably get occupied before then. By a nice free swarm. 

MAYBE by a nuc. But my friend who still has his spring bees - still has the 4 frames he started with in the nuc he bought, he's till feeding honey water. They put up no stores, there was little nectar or pollen. Certainly no honey. 

Timing is everything.


----------



## Fusion_power

Down here, we would say "I don't have a horse in this race".

DarJones


----------



## Scrapfe

Acebird said:


> ... Anyone can fly an airplane with very little *hands on training*. ... When there is a *skill involved experience counts. * ...beekeeping is more know how than experience... anyone can do it...


Acebird, please define for us Hoi Polloi the difference between hands on training, skill, experience, and know how. We members of the great unwashed are keen to know. 

A B17 crew member (with 5,500 hours), a Thunder Bird solo pilot (F105 Jockey) and an Apache driver back from Iraq, all three told me that there were both “old pilots and bold pilots, but in the history of the world there never were any pilots who were both old and bold.” If your assertion about piloting an aircraft are correct, (you only need to understand the theory of flight to fly one) then IMHO airplanes in the hands of novice pilots (with little on no hands on training) should not be dropping from the sky and pinging like Autumn's leaves. 

Oh wait Acebird, aircraft piloted by novice pilots are dropping from the sky like Autumn leaves, Google "John F. Kennedy jr. Piper Saratoga." Then again your statement that “anyone can do it” in relation to beekeeping may explain CCD. Oh well, I am eagerly waiting for your explanation of the difference between "hands on training" "experience" and “skill.”


----------



## jim lyon

Scrapfe said:


> Oh well, I am eagerly waiting for your explanation of the difference between "hands on training" "experience" and “skill.”


Actually I am kind of dreading it.
Not that it is particularly relevant (google Charles Lyon POW) but my father had a pretty harrowing experience as a b17 crewman. It is what draws me back to northern Italy and the wonderful folks that live there every chance I get. Sorry, I know t: but, hey Ace started it.


----------



## sqkcrk

Gypsi said:


> he's till feeding honey water.


That should tell you something about the use of honey water. Don't.


----------



## Gypsi

He did his homework up front, treatment free, bees alive.
On a green island in an industrial area.


----------



## Gypsi

He did his homework up front, treatment free, bees alive.
On a green island in an industrial area.


----------



## jim lyon

sqkcrk said:


> So, does he know either Joseph Koehring or Lynn Barton, or both?


Jeff said he knew them both well and worked with them for several years.


----------



## Acebird

jim lyon said:


> but, hey Ace started it.


What short memory you have. Mark did the comparison on post #133.
Why bother with the explanation? Most of you cannot differentiate the difference between skill and knowledge. A well balanced airplane can fly with one control surface and most have three. There are billions and billions of people that are given licenses to drive automobiles certified by a state or some other governing body yet in emergency situations a crash results. Mark didn't reference flying a plane under those situations. So are you all saying that unless you have the skill of Brother Adams you will fail as a beekeeper? Please ...

Michael you truly have wisdom. If there is any commercial apiary that I would love to visit it would be yours, hands down.:thumbsup:


----------



## sqkcrk

Gypsi said:


> He did his homework up front, treatment free, bees alive.
> On a green island in an industrial area.


And this means what, considering what you said about your friend still feeding his bees honey water. If that is so, I would think that indicates a problem.

What is a green island in an industrial area? And why do you bring it up?


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> You would do better to compare flying a helicopter because a plane will fly itself. Anyone can fly an airplane with very little hands on training.


But should they? Anyone can write sentences, but it appears your first one above is lacking something. Compare flying a helicopter to what?

Almost anyone can produce children, but should they?


----------



## honeyshack

Why beekeepers fail...
They get on rabbit trails losing sight of what is important...keeping healthy bees


----------



## Gypsi

sqkcrk said:


> And this means what, considering what you said about your friend still feeding his bees honey water. If that is so, I would think that indicates a problem.
> 
> What is a green island in an industrial area? And why do you bring it up?


Mark,

Lazyshooter and I need to give you a tour of North Texas in August. This August, unless current climate trends change. 

(Lazyshooter - you can handle the Weatherford end can't you? All that brown grassland? Sorry I didn't ask you first.)

You cannot look at a beehive as isolated from its environment and get the full picture. The beehive in question is maybe 5 miles, probably 3 miles as the bee flies, from downtown Dallas, surrounded by highways, fast food, auto repair shops, factories, air pollution from 3 different highways. The green island might be a mile in diameter. Across one of the highways is a much larger green island, not more than 1.5 miles away.

Based upon Texas drought and dearth in 2011, and continuing into this winter, I'd say that his continuing to feed his bees honeywater is good beekeeping. 

And my local bee club told me to not believe all the stuff I would hear from outside of this area online, in bee forums, for just this reason. The only way to "get" Texas, is to be here when our climate goes bonkers. Just like the only way to "get" beekeeping, is to get bees. Last year, I got bees, and while that August warranty hive lasted I was in it 2 to 5 times a week examining, trying, learning, reading, looking again, etc. Because I needed to understand beekeeping. And I will NEVER know it all, but I understand much more than I did. I do not need to prove anything by fighting Texas weather and getting another hive this year. Better to put my pennies in my piggy bank and wait for weather-break. It always does eventually. 

Gypsi


----------



## Stonefly7

It took a while to get through this thread. Some good points noted through the bullgravy. One point not mentioned, as to why folks fail.

"BEING HUMBLE"

After 37 years of keeping bees, I still don't know it all. I can pick up the phone or drive over and talk to several beekeepers who know more than I ever will. I spent time at Teds this summer, and just spoke to Mike Palmer last week seeking information from those who know more than I on certain subjects. I may not do as they do, but may take their ideas and adapt it to my operation to meet my needs. As noted by several, "there's a huge difference between siting behind a computer or reading a book, and puting that information into practice". It takes a long time to be good at something and aquire the "skill sets" necessary to meet all the different scenarios that may come your way.

Ace, I work with the NTSB on accidents on a weekly basis. From commercial to experimental. Your statement is bullgravy.

Kind regards


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Compare flying a helicopter to what?


Sometimes I think you are just pulling my chain Mark. Flying a helicopter requires skill it is an unstable aircraft. If you let go of the controls it will crash. Flying a plan requires very little skill because you can literally let go of the controls and it will fly as long as you have fuel. You compared beekeeping to flying a plane. You are right!


----------



## Acebird

Gypsi said:


> Last year, I got bees, and while that August warranty hive lasted I was in it 2 to 5 times a week examining,


Not to rub salt into the wounds but did anyone in your area tell you that this kind of frequency would stress the bees? Could you manipulate a fish tank that often?


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Sometimes I think you are just pulling my chain Mark. Flying a helicopter requires skill it is an unstable aircraft.


So the part of that sentence, the part you didn't write, you thought was understood? I don't like to read between the lines, let alone between the words. Write what you mean, the whole thought. Then I won't have to guess about meaning.

I think I know what you are suggesting by saying what you did about comparisons between airplanes and helicopters. Get an airplane up in the air and, in crude terms, it's a glider w/ engines. Get a helicopter up in the air it's more like a stone w/ a prop on top. Not that I know anything about either planes or helicopters, or piloting them.


----------



## RiodeLobo

Gypsi said:


> Last year, I got bees, and while that August warranty hive lasted I was in it 2 to 5 times a week examining, trying, *learning*, reading, looking again, etc.


Ace you missed the most important part of the sentence.


----------



## BMAC

Acebird said:


> Sometimes I think you are just pulling my chain Mark. Flying a helicopter requires skill it is an unstable aircraft. If you let go of the controls it will crash. Flying a plan requires very little skill because you can literally let go of the controls and it will fly as long as you have fuel. You compared beekeeping to flying a plane. You are right!


I know this is a little off topic but you are not correct. Aircraft that have autopilot systems use a fairly sophisticated system to keep that thing in the air. In fact our military use several fixed wing aircraft that takes multiple computers to keep it from crashing into the ground to include but not limited to the AV8A Harrier. Some however are pretty good at flying without much human/computer interaction such as cessnas.


----------



## Gypsi

Acebird said:


> Not to rub salt into the wounds but did anyone in your area tell you that this kind of frequency would stress the bees? Could you manipulate a fish tank that often?


If the. Fish were as bad off as these bees, I'd better.
2 frames, drought, mite count 100, shb, moths.
Got to 7 frames before the robbery.
Mite count zero. I learned.


----------



## sqkcrk

Gypsi said:


> If the. Fish were as bad off as these bees, I'd better.
> 2 frames, drought, mite count 100, shb, moths.
> Got to 7 frames before the robbery.
> Mite count zero. I learned.


mite count 100? What, one a stricky board or in a powdered sugar roll?

What about the May swarm? Where does that fall in your list?

7 frames of drawn comb? Or what?


----------



## hpm08161947

jim lyon said:


> Jeff said he knew them both well and worked with them for several years.


Herb McIntyre knows Lynn Barton.... Lynn Barton knows Jeff Lyons... Jeff Lyons knows Jim Lyons....
Small bee world isn't it...


----------



## cg3

Gypsi said:


> He did his homework up front,


Not to pick on you but- from another thread:


Ted Kretschmann said:


> Also one should NEVER, ever feed honey from an unknown source. If it did not come off your bees-do not feed it ever!! This is the quickest way to come down with some exotic form of AFB or EFB is through the feeding of honey. One of the worst outbreaks of AFB ever experienced fifteen years ago by the beekeeping industry in the southeast was caused by unclean, leakey empty honey drums sent to producers by Ernie Greob/packer of foriegn honey for refill in their operations. The honey drums lids were not tight and the bees did what bees do-rob exposed honey...So connect the dots. Commercial packers pack honey from exotic places in small packs and you then augment your feed with possible that honey.


----------



## sqkcrk

Gypsi said:


> Mark,
> 
> Lazyshooter and I need to give you a tour of North Texas in August. This August, unless current climate trends change.
> 
> (Lazyshooter - you can handle the Weatherford end can't you? All that brown grassland? Sorry I didn't ask you first.)
> Gypsi


If you or Lazyshooter are anywhere near Snook, Texas, I know a guy who knows a bee tree that needs taking down and hauled away. Interested?

See techumseh's Post on Facebook. Or I could put you together.


----------



## Gypsi

sqkcrk said:


> mite count 100? What, one a stricky board or in a powdered sugar roll?
> 
> What about the May swarm? Where does that fall in your list?
> 
> 7 frames of drawn comb? Or what?


Full story new thread, we are badly hijacking this one.


----------



## ryanbekke

I Agree with Ted Kretschmann comment of THAT'S THE SPIRIT. on his reply to "My colony might fail, but my hobby will not."----


----------



## beyondthesidewalks

This thread reminds me of the stories of Thomas Edison and Paul and Bob Galvin. Thomas Edison had just burned his lab down and was planning the next experiement and where he would do it while the firefighters were still trying to put out the fire. Paul Galvin(founder of Motorola) and his brother, Bob, wanted to make radios for automobiles. The very first radio they produced caught fire and totaled the car in which they installed it. They never gave up and kept trying until they succeeded. You don't fail until you accept failure.


----------



## StevenG

Wow. Just finished reading all 20 pages here... I need a beer.
I've met Crazy Roland and his son, neat folks. I have a steak bet with Ted, looking forward to collecting in a few years Ted, and will be down to see you in a couple, when I retire. 

what Daniel (?) doesn't understand is, it doesn't matter how many years experience you have handling/working with _someone else's bees_, if they aren't your own, if you're not financially responsible and accountable, and if your life/livelihood doesn't depend on your decisions, your "experience" simply doesn't stack up next to those who have a stake in the game. If you don't own them, when the day is over, you go home and you don't have to lose sleep over what happens to them.
sigh... what a thread. now for that brew.
Regards,
Steven


----------



## Shrtcke

I havent been keeping bees for very long.....5 yrs. Started with one hive and now we have four. Two failed before winter this year. But when I took a bee class before I started........the instructor said ....you learn by your mistakes. There are so many variables in beekeeping-some beyond our control. The weather,disease and pests, bears. I think we do the best that we can with what we are handed and hope for the best. We were so excited when we overwintered our first hive. I am looking forward for when the weather breaks to see how our girls are doing. I enjoy watching them work flowers and coming in with their pollen baskets full to the max. We all "fail" at some point. So dont lose heart.


----------



## Daniel Y

Steve, Is that why one of my posts included this quote "I recognize there is a difference between helping with bees and owning them"? My comments where about the attitude that owing bees is the only measure of possible experience. Is is BS. I think I made my point though because I don't get a lot of those comments any more.


----------



## sqkcrk

Well, if you don't own bees are you experienced, experiencing success or failure? But I understand you are getting some bees this spring, right?


----------



## Solomon Parker

Leave the guy alone for crying out loud. This whole side plot is ludicrous. Get over it. Everybody.


----------



## bluegrass

Unless you guys have top notch Health Insurance every time you or your loved one walks into a hospital you are seen by a Resident's Intern who is in fact an MD, but has no experience, just the Education. How do they get experience? They work in another Doctor's practice on another Doctor's patients... At the end of the internship they are experienced physicians and can start seeing their own patients. 

You can absolutely become experienced without ever owning your own bees. Like I said earlier in this thread.... Much of the commercial bee industry in this country is highly dependent on Migrant workers from South America, they are the best at what they do and they do not own their own bees.


----------



## jim lyon

Bad analogy Bluegrass. An intern is an MD and has been through med school and spent many, many hours working alongside Doctors in various fields while doing their rotations.


----------



## Acebird

bluegrass said:


> Much of the commercial bee industry in this country is highly dependent on Migrant workers


As with most things agricultural.


----------



## bluegrass

jim lyon said:


> Bad analogy Bluegrass. An intern is an MD and has been through med school and spent many, many hours working alongside Doctors in various fields while doing their rotations.


It is a perfect analogy... I work in a teaching hospital and the Interns have no idea what they are doing... I am an RN and they ask us what they should do when the Resident isn't on call... As nurses we are very specialized in the area we work in... we get to know the physicians and their order sets and we relay that information to the interns so they can write the order... or; if they are busy, I tell them what they are ordering and put the order in myself and sign their name to it. It is common practice and called a TORB.


----------



## Solomon Parker

t: Seriously?


----------



## Seymore

deknow said:


> ...I bet it also.doesn't say that staring at a link to an article is the best preparation to discuss the article.
> deknow


Lol, deknow.


----------



## jim lyon

Come on Sol a discussion of the importance of experience in a thread about why beekeepers fail isn't really that far off the mark, it's not like we are discussing idiot lights or something like that. I am afraid, though, I must concede that experience is way over rated in anything, that is unless it's perhaps the medical field where young doctors often ask the advice of experienced RN's... waaaait a minute now I'm confused again.......I'm sure those newly hired nurses aides could answer those questions just as well.


----------



## bluegrass

StevenG said:


> what Daniel (?) *doesn't understand is, it doesn't matter how many years experience you have handling/working with someone else's bees, if they aren't your own, if you're not financially responsible and accountable, and if your life/livelihood doesn't depend on your decisions, your "experience" simply doesn't stack up next to those who have a stake in the game.* If you don't own them, when the day is over, you go home and you don't have to lose sleep over what happens to them.


Above is the comment that I responding to in regards to experience: I find this absolutely incorrect. Many many people in this world are very experienced at what they do without ever having a "stake" in it as described above. The CEO of Fed Ex owns hundreds of Cargo Jets, but I bet he couldn't taxi one around an airport. His pilots on the other hand probably never owned a cargo plane but they are Experienced in operating one and can do it better then the owner.... I could go all day with examples like this....

I have seen Migrant workers find a queen in a hive, mark her, and cage her in just seconds... when the owner of the whole bee operation couldn't do the same in 15 minutes time.


----------



## Acebird

jim lyon said:


> it's not like we are discussing idiot lights or something like that.


Good one LMAO!
I think it is important to learn form those that have experience if you can. I don't think it can replace what your personal experiences are especially when it comes to beekeeping.

Sol just wants to be lead moderater ... watch out Barry he has got his sights on you.


----------



## Solomon Parker

I'm personally tired of it. The man can't fail, he doesn't have any bees. So what? I get sick of the condescending attitude of 'how long have you been keeping bees' and 'how many hives do you have' that comes from some people around here. And I'm not even talking about commercials. There are newbees with the very same problem! It's a big huge conglomeration of the genetic fallacy. Share your own experience, leave others' alone.


----------



## delber

I have been following this thread to seek to understand what some other pit falls may be. I guess there's 2 ways to "fail" from what I'm getting. First off (Option 1) someone that has their hive / hives die out and don't get back into things. The second (option 2) is someone that makes a mistake and learns from it and moves on. There's not much to be said for the first one. From anything to everything to nothing could go wrong and they'll quit just because they're not devoted. (as has been said well enough already) The second is where I want to learn which is why I'm here and have been following this thread. We can beat a dead horse for a long time with the person who just quits. There could be several reasons / issues with them. However what I'd like to learn more about is from the business aspect. Why do people fail in starting a business who have been there done that and "fail". (going bankrupt, hives die out / replacement costs, aren't able to make ends meet, etc.) For those that have seen / heard of others in this situation I'd appreciate knowing what has happened. Debt has been discussed already, as has "option 1" person who just gives up. But what are some other reasons why people fail in "option 2"?


----------



## bluegrass

Solomon Parker said:


> I'm personally tired of it. The man can't fail, he doesn't have any bees. So what? I get sick of the condescending attitude of 'how long have you been keeping bees' and 'how many hives do you have' that comes from some people around here. And I'm not even talking about commercials. There are newbees with the very same problem! It's a big huge conglomeration of the genetic fallacy. Share your own experience, leave others' alone.


Something I agree with Solomon on 

I hate when I go to my bee association meeting and people always ask how many years I have been doing this... I will often tell them it doesn't matter. We don't have to eat our young. We don't have to make them feel inferior because they haven't been at it for 20 + years... I know people who have been keeping bees for 40 years, have published books about it, and still are absolutely wrong is some of their beliefs. Experience doesn't amount to much if you are not really paying attention to begin with.

We are coming up on a generation gap in beekeeping, those with 40 years in are on the verge of retirement and soon the top beekeepers in the field are going to have 20 or less years in... we are already seeing much younger speakers at the HAS, EAS conference etc...


----------



## Nabber86

Just for fun.......

How many NASCAR drivers own their own cars?

How many commercial pilots own a 747?


----------



## Acebird

delber said:


> However what I'd like to learn more about is from the business aspect. Why do people fail in starting a business who have been there done that and "fail". (going bankrupt, hives die out / replacement costs, aren't able to make ends meet, etc.)


In my first post to this thread I mentioned financial failure #54. It behoves anyone starting a business of any kind to take a course in starting a business. All of the mistakes that get repeated happen because the person who starts the business does not know or does not admit to themselves that they have a love affair with the hobby aspect of starting the business but don't really like running a business. It is the difference between a doer and a manager. These are two distinctly different tasks. If you ask why businesses fail you haven't taken the course and you should (before you try to start one). Research the internet. Some areas even have mentor classes from experience business men who donate their time. Be honest with yourself.


----------



## beyondthesidewalks

I've been keeping bees for 20 years and I'm not sticking my thimbs in my suspenders and puffing my chest out. My point is beekeeping has changed dramatically since I started. I was in a mode where I thought I knew enough to keep bees from some point on, doing it the same way I did it in 1996. Well, beekeeping changed much after that and what I was doing wasn't working anymore. I knew a lot of basics but I wasn't up-to-date on the game. I had to relearn to stay in the hobby. If I hadn't I would have failed. You only fail when you accept failure.


----------



## Scrapfe

bluegrass said:


> ... I have seen Migrant workers find a queen in a hive, mark her, and cage her in just seconds... when the owner of the whole bee operation couldn't do the same in 15 minutes...


One bee company owner told me that his migrant workers convinced him to ditch his queen excluders, especially when they were shaking packages. Because the excluders only slowed down the operation of securing the queen before shaking bees into packages. They could find and catch queens quicker without excluders even on full sized exploding colonies.

Getting back to the medical analogy, doctors and nurses often (LIKE IN ALMOST ALWAYS) possesses different skills or training. It is the doctors with both experience and training who as a rule seeks the advice of an experienced RN when writing orders. It is usually the dumb or new docs who disregard or discount the input of experienced nurses. Besides, the RN sees a lot more of the patient and usually has a better idea about what is going on with them including the patient’s medical history than a harried doctor does. This is especially true in an Emergency Room setting. 

Both the doc and the nurse are important. The bee worker (nurse) may have evidence of an attack by robbers or other events, and the owner (doctor) may only be concerned with his whole operation or may not be able to spend time evaluating a hand full of colonies. Together they form something called a team. If a bee worker is content to just go home at the end of the day and not learn or think about how to do his or her job better, then that bee worker needs to find another calling. Because it is a lead pipe cinch that the apiary owner will sooner or later be looking for another means of earning his lively hood when saddled with help like the above.


----------



## Roland

I believe we need to separate the ideas of experience in working bees, and experience in running a business. The migrant workers may have alot of experience working bees, But could they run a business? The CEO of Fedex may not be able to pilot a plane, but it is his job to pilot a company. 

Delber is looking for reasons that failures occur in option 2. I believe that two traits are needed, one is the knowledge and experience working with bees, and the other is business savy. They do NOT have to be in the same person. If the person in charge can find someone with the other trait that they lack, they have a chance for success. Failure occurs when the CEO of Fedex is trying to fly airplanes, or the floor sweeper is in charge of the board room. 

OK, now I will get on my high horse. Hate me if you will. From the way most of the newcomers talk, it is quite obvious that 5 generations of experience DOES teach things that can not be acquired overnight. Most of it is a philosophy on how things should be approached and handled. Is it perfect? Heck no, but part of that way of thinking is problem solving. We had crisis in the past, What did we do to solve them? Sure, we have new players, with new names, but has anything REALLY changed? Read up on AFB in the 30's, etc. We ain't in Kansas any more Toto, but some of the same ways of thinking to solve problems still work.

Crazy Roland


----------



## sqkcrk

When new members appear on beesource.com, the way they are treated by those who have been here a while is a vetting process. As I wrote to Laurie, it is like a new horse trying to fit in to the herd. It's natural, an organic process. It is also a way for new members to establish themselves and to see how they fit in.

As Roland pointed out, there is beekeeping and business which commercial beekeepers have to master to a lesser or greater degree. The rest of the industry may be beekeepers who have no need for business acumen.


----------



## hummingberd

I failed at first because I didn't know what I was doing. Through a combination of hands on learning, tons of reading and an understanding that I needed to take things slow to be comfortable. I got my first hive through the first year, but lost it the second. Then started up again. Now I've got 3 very healthy hives and plan to at least double that in the spring. I got my license to bottle and sell honey and hope to be a regular vendor at the farmers market next year.

As far as my experience is concerned, beekeeping is a commitment. You can do as little or as much as you want, but there has to be some sense of long term commitment. Many people get overwhelmed and frustrated, and just give up. It's great that the bee keeping community is expanding. 6 years ago, I'd have had to travel 2 hours to get a frame. Now I can make a call and in 5 minutes be at a neighbors house to borrow one


----------



## Grant

Okay. I just read through all 222 posts and found the discussion enlightening, lively and in many cases, not at all what I had expected. I kept hoping we'd get back to the reasons beekeepers fail (by the way, I read the original source article, it's on pages 159 through 161 when you click on the link in the first post).

Does anyone remember that first post?

Then I hoped we could formulate a response to these failing beekeepers. From the gist of our discussion, it seems we need to get these failing beekeepers into airplanes or cattle ranches!

But to get back on topic, if there still is one, I cringe everytime someone comes to me and says, "I want to get into beekeeping? Is it hard?"

Many times these inquiring minds watch me shovel dollar bills into my cash box as I sell honey at the farmer's market. It seems they want a piece of this lucrative action.

I stifle a sigh, wondering if this person will be another one of those enthusiastic idealists who spends $500 on a couple of hives/bees, irritates their spouse for what seems like a crazy pipe-dream, jumps in thinking there is nothing to this hobby and expects a waterfall of honey to cascade over their bee yard. From my anecdotal observation, if the bees survive their first winter, they are generally dead the next summer.

Many of these idealists have no knowledge, expect a lot of hand-holding mentoring, look to me for emergency solutions to problems incurred because they read something on the Internet, then give up because they need to buy more nucs or packages and their spouse is looking for that first jar of honey. They do things, or not do things, then stare blankly at me and say, "I didn't know that."

I also find a lot of romantic notions of saving the bees, keeping bees "naturally" (whatever the heck that means), deciding they won't use smoke (which usually changes after their first hive inspection), and believing those boxes of bees sitting in the back yard will blissfully forage and pollinate the world and will never, ever turn and sting the children, the family dog, or make the back yard inaccessible.

My take on why some beekeepers fail is 1) going into this hobby with ignorance and lacking the patience to learn the craft first, like hanging out with a beekeeper and opening hives..and taking a few stings, 2) thinking there is nothing to it, as if the bees will do all the work for you and you don't have to do anything but enjoy the ride, 3) lacking the longer term persistance and commitment to overcome dead hives, and 4) overcoming the embarrassment of making mistakes and asking for help, 5) coming up with more money to buy more bees to fill the dead outs (and a supportive spouse that agrees with this), 6) willingness to work the hive when it's hot, uncomfortable and to do the things WHEN THEY NEED TO BE DONE! 

That last one really bugs me. I cannot tell you how often I hear, "Well, I watched my bees swarm last weekend so I figured I better get the supers out of the basement and on the hive." Then they ***** and belly-ache because they have no honey crop.

Duh!

I take offense when someone ignores their hives and excuses their laziness by saying, "Well, it's just a hobby." But then they want to buy a bucket of honey so they have Christmas gifts for their relatives.

I ponder if beekeepers are made, or are they born?

I agonize whether or not I'm doing the right thing by starting someone down a frustrating path littered with the wreckage and apicultural detritis of failed hopes and dreams.

My solutions are pretty lame. 1) Read, read and read. The beekeeper who can read and doesn't is no better than the illiterate beekeepere who can't, 2) Get a mentor, 3) Join a bee club that teaches practical skills, 4) Find a peer group and visit each other's apiaries, 5) Make a commitment to stick with it and not give up too soon.

There are easier hobbies and I often recommend stamp collecting as an alternative. Your only real danger is a paper cut.

Grant
Jackson, MO


----------



## BMAC

Grant that was a pretty interesting read. I always encourage those folks to play with bees in their backyard. Though many times I suggest to them that before they plunge head deep in bees maybe I should run a yard of bees on their property for 1 season so they can really see what its like to have colonies there and then they can decide to keep me coming or just have their own. So far I have never had someone tell me to go away cause they wanted to start.

Ignorance is generally the number 1 factor for failure.


----------



## Acebird

Grant, could you give us the short version of how your post differs for the previous 222 posts?

If helping other people get into bees is not rewarding for you let others do it.


----------



## Daniel Y

I "Hope" I am getting bees this spring. I found a local person selling nucs but have not heard anything about how this year with no winter has effected his bees.
As far as the experience. It was both. success and failure. Not much in the way of bee behavior that I have seen mentioned here is new to me. The diseases are. I am also not used to what seems to me to be fast replacement of queens. I recall that queens where expected to last for about 7 years. AHB changed that at one point and I do remember that.
Either you or Ted mentioned somewhere in this thread that you cannot explain why you know what you know when you open a hive. I know what you are talking about from other things I have done. And I am aware I do not have that when it comes to bees. I make a point of mentioning this because I think this factor has a huge roll in success or failure. It is what would make the difference in my hive setting right next to an experienced keepers hive. His would survive or even thrive while mine failed. I can do it with Aquariums. Just look at them and know if the tank is healthy or not. I think a large pert of it is recognizing healthy behavior. You look in a hive and the bees move and act in ways that indicate they are a healthy hove or not. then something catches your eye that triggers that place deep in your brain that says things are not right. So you take a closer look. A new keeper would never notice that tiny something that caught the experienced keepers eye. A new keeper often will not notice behavior in a sick hive until the sickness is almost to bad to treat. That will be me for a while, and I know it. 



sqkcrk said:


> Well, if you don't own bees are you experienced, experiencing success or failure? But I understand you are getting some bees this spring, right?


----------



## Daniel Y

I work at a medical school, and you are wrong. They do those things you have listed right along with treating patients diagnosing, prescribing etc. But you will be treated by a student that is not as experienced at what they are doing as an MD. I once had a cast put on my wrist by a student, I support the med school , and had to return 24 hours later to have it redone because the first job was so bad it was falling off my arm. At any point a student can find they are lacking in some way at becoming an MD and they fall from the list. 600 people apply for every one postilion at this medical school. of the 125 that are accepted every year, 25 will become doctors. That is some pretty fierce weeding out for sure. But I absolutely guarantee you that students that have never done it before are out their working on living patients.



jim lyon said:


> Bad analogy Bluegrass. An intern is an MD and has been through med school and spent many, many hours working alongside Doctors in various fields while doing their rotations.


----------



## Daniel Y

Delber offers a different focus on this discussion. Rather than failure at keeping bees, what about failure at business. I also like Rolands comment in that regard. I am not sure this group is the best place to discuss business failure at all.

I do know that at one time I heard the number one reason businesses fail is they are not prepared to meet the demands of their customers. How I have seen this play out in reality is that many business owners start up with great hopes but also great concern. and they approach it to cautiously. Business is more often so successful they cannot keep up with it. They leave a trail of unsatisfied customers and then people start darkening their doorway.

Other reasons that a business will fail are so many and varied it is pretty much impossible to cover in this sort of setting. People skills, management skills, financial skills, a well rounded knowledge of what money is and how it really works, Ability to accept risk, For a business owner you may fail simply because you failed to file your taxes correctly. You may have a temporary laborer get stung go into shock and bankrupt your company with the law suits they bring against you.

I do have a lot of experience with hobbyists that then want to expand into business. Usually craft shows. I this case think of farmers markets. And the single greatest mistake I see them make bar none. is they fail to recognize their true costs in making a product or proper pricing that will result in adequate profits.

Here is a perfect real to life example fo what happens.
Crafter says they want to start selling there wares at craft shows. Somewhere in the discussion they mention how the materials for item A cost them $10, so they will price it at $20 and double their money. Some even feel greedy thinking they will double their money and will price the item at $15 thinking they are making $5 per item sold. WRONG!!!. they are loosing money on every item they are selling. and after a few shows this becomes apparent when they start saying things like. I have done a bunch of shows and even sold a lot of stuff, but somehow it never seems like I am making much if any money. And here is why

An item costs $10 to make, you sell it for $20 and don't make a dime. This is because all you did was got your original $10 back plus the $10 it will take to replace the sold item. You just made $20 for the supplier of your material and did it for free. Plus you paid out of your pocket the cost of transportation, display and show fees. Not to mention all that fast food you have to buy while at a show. Plus all the time and equipment you used. This crafter will be lucky if they did not pay $20 per item for the fun of selling it. I call these the "Hidden Factors". 

In comparison a pricing formula for even a hobby looks like this.

Cost of materials X 3 then you add on your hourly rate.

So an item that costs $10 in materials and 1 hour to make must sell for $50 if the crafter wants to make $20 per hour for their work. very few people ever see this.


----------



## lazy shooter

“My take on why some beekeepers fail is 1) going into this hobby with ignorance and lacking the patience to learn the craft first, like hanging out with a beekeeper and opening hives..and taking a few stings, 2) thinking there is nothing to it, as if the bees will do all the work for you and you don't have to do anything but enjoy the ride, 3) lacking the longer term persistence and commitment to overcome dead hives, and 4) overcoming the embarrassment of making mistakes and asking for help, 5) coming up with more money to buy more bees to fill the dead outs (and a supportive spouse that agrees with this), 6) willingness to work the hive when it's hot, uncomfortable and to do the things WHEN THEY NEED TO BE DONE!”

Grant:

I think I fit into parts of your numbers one and two. I did think it would be a walk in the park. My three packages from last April are still alive, although one of them is way down in population. I have two things in my favor. They are, that as an engineer I have read and learned new material all of my adult life, and for the anticipated size of my bee operation I have unlimited resources. I am isolated and don’t belong to a bee club or have any mentors available. That’s out of my control. I maintain two homes, an 800 acre ranch, approximately 40 head of nice Black Angus mothers (I do have cowboy assistance from time to time) and still work as a drilling consultant on hostile environment gas wells some 75 days per annum, so laziness is not a concern for me. 

It almost seems that you are bitter that we amateurs, those of us that do not have our livelihoods attached to the bee business, are entering the field. Others on the forum seem to be more than willing to pass along their knowledge to us newbes. 

There are many reasons for failure in any endeavor, and no matter how much one studies a business they find new and unthought-of issues once they are in that business. The best business plan will still allow for some surprises along the way. It is those surprises that determine if any new business is your “cup of tea.” 

I’ve had a lot of surprise issues. I am going to order three more nucs.


----------



## BMAC

Daniel Y said:


> Delber offers a different focus on this discussion. Rather than failure at keeping bees, what about failure at business. I also like Rolands comment in that regard. I am not sure this group is the best place to discuss business failure at all.


You make a valid point. It still boils down to ignorance, whether it's ignorance of handling bees or a business it's ignorance. As a beekeeper who used to attend craft fairs and farmers markets to make a profit I can tell you, that you are correct about what you are saying. If a beekeeper wants to be successful at keeping bees they need to become educated about bees from both reading and real life experience. This would be the same for a beekeeper who wants to successfully run a beekeeping business but the education and real life experience needs to be in the aspect of business along with the education of keeping bees. Its critical to examine the bottom line and partly play bean counter. If you can't make money selling honey on shelves at stores or tables at farmers markets then maybe the successful beekeeping business is to sell drums of honey to packers. Maybe the successful beekeeping business isnt to sell honey at all but to pollinate crops. It still boils down to examining the bottom line of expenses and ensuring all related expenses are met and income is coming in otherwise you just end up with a really big and super expensive hobby.


----------



## Solomon Parker

The beekeepers I've seen personally fail in my experience have failed primarily due to neglect possibly tied to fear. It goes back to that whole stinging thing. It also harkens back to the article that few actually read where people said that moths were what got the bees. It wasn't so much ignorance of the actual cause, but the only evidence left after discovering likely by accident that the hive was dead, probably months or even years after it happened.

One doesn't fail as a hobbyist because one has no business sense. I have never heard of a hobbyist with happy healthy hives giving up because they're not making money. It certainly hasn't happened to me and I've been not making money while keeping happy healthy hives for a goodly amount of time now.


----------



## sqkcrk

Daniel Y said:


> I recall that queens where expected to last for about 7 years.


I don't know where you heard that. If that is true, it's something I have never heard before. I don't think that the spermatheca is large enuf to hold enuf sperm to last 7 years.


I'm a beekeeper. What's a "keeper"? It just bugs me that people can't type 3 more letters. Just a personal peeve. Disregard it if you wish. It doesn't matter.


----------



## Grant

Acebird said:


> Grant, could you give us the short version of how your post differs for the previous 222 posts?
> 
> If helping other people get into bees is not rewarding for you let others do it.


Thank you, Acebird, and I mean it sincerely. I guess I never looked at it this way. The more I think about it, it is not rewarding for me as I have unrealistic expectations, my time is in short supply, and if you want to learn how to raise bees, I assume (a dangerous word) that you want to be as serious about this hobby as I am. That's part of my problem. I don't believe in doing things "half-butt." It's for this reason I quit playing the guitar and golf...aside from the fact that I stunk at both. It's also the reason I was the champion collegiate trap shooter in the nation during my freshman year of college.

I don't think I'm "bitter" that others/amateurs are entering the field, as Lazy Shooter concludes, though I admit having re-read my post I sound kind of PMS-whiney. There is more than enough room locally for more beekeepers. But I find I'm the "go to" guy who everyone assumes (dang, there's that word again) has the time to spend all day with them. I'm going to have to learn how to say, "no."

I don't mind passing along information. I used to teach beginning classes. I've got six local beekeepers who I've coached from scratch who are at 30+ hives in four years or less. They are my pride and joy. They mentor me. They encourage me. They share my values. It's those others who try it for a year or two, then give up and quit after such a promising start. Again, I ponder if I was really helpful to them. Was there something I could have done better or would they have given up anyway? There is a grief to this experience and it saddens me.

But the conversation has been helpful, and it couldn't have come at a better time. I'm going to let someone else help these newbees. 

All the best,

Grant


----------



## sqkcrk

Because they think that "Beekeeping is a very cheap hobby"?


----------



## Solomon Parker

Mark, that's a different thread now.


----------



## Acebird

Grant said:


> I don't mind passing along information. I used to teach beginning classes.
> 
> Grant


Probably the easiest thing you could do as a teacher is pass along reference material. That could include readings in your class and a link to beesource. Put the onus on them to learn but lead the way. You don't have to be the doer, or the shower, just the leader which will be a snap shot of your time.


----------



## Buzzsaw2012

Humor me , I don't own any bees yet.
Here is what I see before I even start............................................
I've talked to 3 beekeepers quite a bit ,1 commercial and 2 sideliners, all 3 have pretty much gave off the vibe " you either do it this way or your a idiot"........... no wiggle room .
such as - a bee hive is 2 deeps ,excluder , honey supers above that , dump enough chemicals on them to keep them alive in summer , take all honey in fall , buy new pkg's in spring.

When me as a non bee keeper asks , well could I use all medium supers ,small cell foundation and let some honey on and keep them over winter and use the same bees next year??
So far I've got 3 different dumb butt looks 1} keep them over winter and waste that honey ! it costs more to winter them than the new pkg costs !
2} small cell that's not for beginners and commercial people don't use that !
3} what's small cell ? and I don't think bees come in 2 lb. pkgs.
If grandpa kept bees in a old toilet tank then that's the way its done ... end of discussion.
And if you want to try anything that he didn't do ,that might be a newer way , don't bother coming around asking questions. 
oh , and one of my personal favorite comments 4} there's too many people trying beekeeping and its ruining the honey market !


Every other person you talk to has his/her theory .. somehow a newbee has to decide who to believe and what may be right or best .
I went to a little seminar this weekend on beekeeping to learn more , at the very end of 4 hrs , the nice feller said he has been bee keeping for 4 years and his partner started last year.
Is this the guy to have as a mentor or can I personally learn more in a month than he knows.
Therefore new people starting have to be able to make decisions ON THERE OWN !

I've been a mechanic all my life .
Every day I see people who try to make their own repairs , some do remarkable well , some should not be in control of a chair that has wheels on it.
Some call themselves mechanics , some call themselves customers .
My point is everyone that starts something and quits is not necessarily a failure , it's just not for them.
In my eyes , it is better to have tried and failed then to never have tried at all.

So I will try !!!!!! Even though it may not be the way grandpa did it.
I will glean info. here and there .
I will take advise from those who seem sincere and seem knowledgeable .
And in the end , who knows !

I may look back and tell my kids how bad an idea it was to try beekeeping OR my grandkids might be telling someone --- Well that ain't how my grandpa did it way back in 2012.


----------



## Solomon Parker

Hey Buzz, great post. If you want some info and discussion about small cell and how to use it and the answers to dumb butt questions, start a thread over on Treatment-Free Beekeeping. It will be on topic and you'll get to talk to people who already do what you're thinking about doing.

Cheers


----------



## snl

I've never thought of keeping bees in a toilet tank! Maybe, just maybe........

Buzz..... you are correct in your post. You need to read and keep reading, listen and keep listening, ask questions. Then decide what's best for you (and that may change over time and with personal experience as it has for many of us.) 

As NIKE would say "Just do it!"


----------



## Acebird

Solomon Parker said:


> It will be on topic and you'll get to talk to people who already do what you're thinking about doing.


Yeah you will get to see how Sol runs the joy stick.

Welcome to Beesource where you will get much of what you have already experienced but plenty of ideas that may not agree with how gramps did it back then. There is much to be learned from the commercial guys but they don't have a hobby mindset so what they tell you may not be hobby related.

Treatment free is a choice that is all it is. You could be right or wrong depending on who you listen to. So just make your choices and listen to who ever you please. (number one rule in hobby beekeeping)


----------



## Grant

lazy shooter said:


> “Others on the forum seem to be more than willing to pass along their knowledge to us newbes."


No, not true. Read my others posts. I've been more than happy to help others and pass along information...and my opinions. But I'm not one to try and rack up a record number of posts just by disagreeing with whoever has an idea to share or a question to ask.

But this thread really struck a nerve with me. I take no joy in watching someone flounder as their bees dwindle and die and they choke on the dusty discouragement and spousal frustratation because they thought this hobby was easy. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

And Buzzsaw2012, my advice is to listen to these old coots who think they know it all, glean the good grain and sweep the chaff out the door. There are more ways to raise bees than we know. They found their way, you'll find yours. Dewey Caron summed it up best when he said, "The bees are the best teachers."

The bees will let you know if you pass the test.

Grant
Jackson, MO


----------



## jim lyon

I actually reread pretty much all of this thread and decided that there is a lot of really good stuff on here from the whole range of beekeepers from one hive on up. A few seem upset that there is a strong "my way is the only way" theme and frankly I don't see a lot of that. Lets not forget what this thread is about. If people feel there is nothing to be learned when real life experiences are told by experienced beekeepers then I suppose they are the poorer for it. Please don't confuse the term experienced beekeepers with the number of hives they may own. Whether it's the person with one year or the one with 51 years, everyone has learned from their mistakes and the successful ones have made the necessary adjustments. I am one of the guys with thousands of hives but quite frankly some of the best advice for new beekeepers may be those whose experiences of being new in the business are a bit fresher. All beekeepers must adapt and change to current conditions. I have done fairly well in recent years not because we do things like we always did but because we simply copied some things that other commercials were having success with. "The only constant is change" I live by that little saying.


----------



## Buzzsaw2012

jim lyon said:


> I actually reread pretty much all of this thread and decided that there is a lot of really good stuff on here from the whole range of beekeepers from one hive on up. A few seem upset that there is a strong "my way is the only way" theme and frankly I don't see a lot of that. .


No offense Mr. Lyon but I believe I can tell you why that is.
From what I can tell by reading on here is that YOU personally have a LOT of experience and a LOT of respect .
If you and I where to go into a bee keeper meeting and ask the very same question , I believe the answers and manner of answering would be in 2 totally different manners.
You being a tried and true veteran me being unsure and new.
the answer to your ? would probably go something like............ I see , do you really think all medium hive bodies is the way to go?
the answer to my exact same ? ........................................ Why would you want to do that ?

do you know what I mean ? people just naturally doubt /blow off the newest idea's or people new to the profession .
I'm no better , people come to my truck garage and tell me they tried this or that , and I probably just respond with a dumb founded look.
I have a 25 yr old technician on my crew that fixes 1 prob. twice as fast as anyone else and just as good.
myself and some other techs. that have been around 25+ years just shake our head , we've tried it and it didn't work for us.
maybe he's just lucky , maybe he has better feeling in his fingers or maybe he's just better than us in that repair even though he's only 25.

Thanks to all that try to help us beginners .
I KNOW it can be frustrating for you veterans also.
Lee


----------



## jim lyon

Buzzsaw: Hey we can sure agree there. Answering a question with a question is a peeve of mine as well. We can also agree that it's not so much what you say it's how you say it. I will admit to using sarcasm a few times and I was never proud of it later. One more thing Buzz I've got this clicking noise in my engine and all the old know-it-all mechanics say it's just...........awww never mind you will probably just tell me I'm crazy.


----------



## Acebird

Buzzsaw2012 said:


> maybe he has better feeling in his fingers or maybe he's just better than us in that repair even though he's only 25.


Maybe he is younger and can move a whole lot faster with less effort. It is what it is my friend.


----------



## sqkcrk

Solomon Parker said:


> Mark, that's a different thread now.


But that is my answer. Don't you like it?


----------



## JohnAllen

I thought it was a great answer.


----------



## Roland

Tying to why the Old Coots reply "It is only done this way", is because there is great value in constancy. Inspect the hives on this schedule, super in this manner, feed this much at this time. It is adherence to these "rules" that fosters success. The bees adapt to your methods, and things get done in a timely, ordered manner. It may not be the best method, but if they are still beekeepers. it must some merit. Something not quite perfect, done religiously, may be much more successful than brilliant methods applied haphazardly. 

Crazy Roland


----------



## Acebird

Roland said:


> Tying to why the Old Coots reply "It is only done this way", is because there is great value in constancy.


We have some Old Coots in our club and this year the one that is the "go to", well respected as the authority on bees is doing something totally different. Never did it this way before. I wouldn't call that religious. I would call him methodical though. He also doesn't dictate. He just says what he thinks.


----------



## Daniel Y

I know I make a point to go after the "How many years have you kept bees" comments. The reason I do is that the comment is nothing more than disruptive to a conversation and I believe it was even written to be disruptive. It is not corrective informational or anything else. It is not a reliable way to measure ability or likelihood of success and it is not a reliable method to evaluate the correctness or usefulness of information. In short some members have gotten board and entertain themselves with such mindless pointless comments, they take many other forms. this one is just the most common and obvious.

I do not so much agree that I see a my way is the best way mentality here. In fact opinions vary widely. there is disagreement on all points but I do not see much in the way of a "It's my way or the highway" sort of behavior. Variable information is a good thing. It is not saying much if you are doing something a certain way simply because you never knew of any other way. that can hardly be true when it comes to beekeeping and it's dozen different ways to do anything.


----------



## Daniel Y

sqkcrk said:


> I don't know where you heard that. If that is true, it's something I have never heard before. I don't think that the spermatheca is large enuf to hold enuf sperm to last 7 years.
> 
> 
> I'm a beekeeper. What's a "keeper"? It just bugs me that people can't type 3 more letters. Just a personal peeve. Disregard it if you wish. It doesn't matter.


Probably so in regard to queens. it would have been about 1974 that I would have gotten that impression. And it was not from a commercial beekeeper. Funny that you would think I am writing for your pleasure. In fact I am writing quite a bit to others as to why to ignore you. Btu I will keep it in mind if I ever do intend to make you happy. otherwise don't think so highly of yourself. You are not that important to me.


----------



## Roland

Acebird wrote:
I would call him methodical though

That is close to my "consistent" as being of value. Yes, these drastic times call for drastic measures, but without methodical consistency, we have no idea if the change has accomplished anything.

Daniel Y - your attacks on those with experience may change once you get some. It is hard to tell what the other side of the fence is like until you are there. 

Crazy Roland


----------



## sqkcrk

Daniel Y said:


> In fact I am writing quite a bit to others as to why to ignore you.
> 
> You are not that important to me.


Well, if you are spending any time telling others to ignore me, 

If you really want to ignore me there is a function which makes it so my Posts, or anyone's you wish not to see, don't even show up on your computer. I think it is under "Settings".

Live long and prosper.


----------



## Michael Bush

Obviously running out of sperm for a queen is related to how much she is laying. A queen who has spent seven years living in a nuc has not had any real demands on her and is only laying a few thousand eggs a year. A queen in a booming hive is laying thousands of eggs a day. All of the old research (pre Varroa and acaracides) was that a typical queen lasts an average of 3 years. Some more and some less, of course, not only based on demand but how well mated they were. 7 years was not unheard of if the demands on her were not at all high, but probably unheard of in a booming full sized hive. Post acaracides, the number I've heard from the experts is more like 3 to 6 months...

"In Indiana we had a queen we named Alice which lived to the ripe old age of eight years and two months and did excellent work in her seventh year. There can be no doubt about the authenticity of this statement. We sold her to John Chapel of Oakland City, Indiana, and she was the only queen in his yard with wings clipped. This, however is a rare exception."--Jay Smith, Better Queens

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Queen Alice


----------



## StevenG

Welcome Buzz...as a mechanic you've already discovered many truths about life. Beekeeping/beekeepers is the same. If the first three "mentors" don't work out, keep looking. Not everyone is cut out to be, nor should be, a mentor. You'll also discover quickly enough who to pay attention to on this forum, and who to ignore. And in whom the milk of human kindness has curdled.

Get your bees, subscribe to a magazine, enjoy the forum, and above all else, have fun!
Regards and best wishes,
Steven


----------



## stevedc

Y'all tickle me


----------



## julysun

I agree with Libhart, I am in it for the enjoyment. Learning to "work" the bees well under current trying conditions is goal enough for me.


----------



## smith

I tell new beekeepers to keep one thought in mind: In the first few years, you are not harvesting honey. You are harvesting knowledge.


----------



## HONEYDEW

Grant said:


> Dewey Caron summed it up best when he said, "The bees are the best teachers."
> 
> Grant
> Jackson, MO


 Dewey is a nice guy, he joined our club here in Portland Or. because his grandkids live nearby..


----------



## Seymore

Smith - excellent advice. Does not set "us" up for failure.


----------



## Kristen beck

I think there is a difference between being a failure and feeling like one. Last year was our first attempt at beekeeping, none of our hives made it. They were full of honey and healthy going in to the winter then poof, all gone. We had a big cold snap, lows of 15 degrees highs of 28, after that they were gone. I felt like a failure or that i had failed them but as our mentor says, it's a science and some of the best beekeepers in the world lose hives, don't take it personal. that was the best advice, don't take it personal, roll up your sleeves and get back to business. I love this hobby and see it as a life long adventure.


----------



## Seymore

Duplicated info -


----------



## BeeBrothersApiary

beekeepers fail because they fail their bees! plan and simple.

Colonies themselves do not fail, Humans fail them. The problem is NOT, largely, with the bees. (debately due to large natural extinctions in the wild due to natural pests...BS!!) Enough time hasn't past yet nor have we allowed the bees to become Naturaly able to combat [Asian & African] threats in North America, but they are starting to over come them. Some methods help them, others are devasting to building natural defense genetics. SHB. Moths. Mites, doesnt matter, given time, the bees will be on Earth long long long after we are gone! Living in our plastic left behind..lol

I have removed colonies and left one bee and one egg. Next year I returned to the same removal to spend hours removing a large prosperous colony. (i've been removing 50+ colonies, per season, for 6+ years! I have opened colonies in barns/houses/trees etc, that are nearly a decade old (original genetics isnt the questions for this post) and the colony is Gorgeous! A few mites, a few SHB but NOT ONE cell goes without an egg, nectar, pollen. Of course, i've opened up some real mangie colonies also. For both I can [see] what the reason is for poor health. 99% of the time is is location/cavity issues, poor choice of housing. Would you thrive best in the "projects" or Beverly Hills? Over simplified but applicable. 

here is my short list to answer the "question"

- no patience
- WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY TOO much space for bees to warm/guard and WAY WAY TOO SOON
- no patience
- overworking colonies (disturbed often)
- no patience
- honey theft
- "southern" bees expected to perform in Cold/Damp climates
- no patience
- i have colonies 6 plus tiers high, I haven't open in years. (they live with mites, no space for shb, entrance is very small and guardable against wax moth). imo ALL diseases (overtake colony) due to the above/below reasons.
- bees build top down (nuff said)
- starvation, see point 1
- lack of knowledge/effort to combat condensation inside
- overcompensation
- knit & crochet is a hobby, bees are NOT!
- see a pattern?

I have designed an entirely new method / hive structure for the 21st century. It is currently in test phase. The "system" comes from seeing hundred of colonies in the "wild" and mirrors their natural tendencies. The BEES manage the hive, not Humans.
It will (again) change the way we keep bees, hopefully, for the betterment of the bees this time. 

Thanks!


----------



## Acebird

BeeBrothersApiary said:


> I have designed an entirely new method / hive structure for the 21st century.


When do you expect to reveal it to the world? Are you above critiquing? Show us.


----------



## lazy shooter

I'm spending my spare time working on an improved wheel.


----------



## sqkcrk

A good friend of mine reminded me last week that the bees do all of the work. No way do I work as hard as a colony of bees. I am not a failure, but I'm not as successful as others.

lazy shooter, does your name imply that the bullet lands in the grass somewhere infront of the target? I am invisioning a rifle w/ a limp barrel.  asked in kindness. My honey squeaks and creeks.


----------



## lazy shooter

Sqkcrk:

Many years ago a group of Sheriff's deputies invited me to join their competitive shooting team and compete with them in shooting events. Initially, I agreed to do this. Then they wanted to know what days I could come to the range for practice. I told them I would shoot on their team, but I did not have any spare time to practice. One of the deputies then said, "so, what are you, a lazy shooter?" The name stuck in that circle of friends.

The name fits we well at this time, as at 73, I am getting to be pretty lazy, and I still shoot. In the strictest meaning of the words, I have become a "lazy shooter."


----------



## sqkcrk

I knew there had to be a story there. A good one too. Thanks for sharing. Lazy or not you must be pretty good to be recruited by a shooting team. Neat.


----------



## Solomon Parker

I'm still waiting to see this entirely new method. Sounds Warre-ish. I can't say I've ever met a long term successful Warre user. I digress.

That reminds me, I need to post an update on my Cube Hive.


----------



## sqkcrk

What once was old is new again.


----------



## Tia

pascopol said:


> Starting with one colony is the basic error, all books I red agree.
> 
> If there is a thing in beekeeping close to 100% beeks would agree, this is the one.
> 
> Start with at least 2 colonies, 3 or more is better.


Couldn't agree more. This is what I teach when I give a bee school. Two hives is always better than one. If you have more than one hive, you can compare actions at the front door--they should basically be doing the same thing. If they're not, find out why and you learn. If one hive is having problems, you can "borrow" from the stronger hive. Two or more hives raise your level and timeline of learning what bees do and how you can help them do it.


----------



## Solomon Parker

sqkcrk said:


> What once was old is new again.


New name!


----------



## BSAChris

lazy shooter said:


> I'm spending my spare time working on an improved wheel.


<<--- -LOL:thumbsup:


----------



## beeG

BeeBrothersApiary said:


> I have designed an entirely new method / hive structure for the 21st century. It is currently in test phase. The "system" comes from seeing hundred of colonies in the "wild" and mirrors their natural tendencies. The BEES manage the hive, not Humans.
> It will (again) change the way we keep bees, hopefully, for the betterment of the bees this time.
> 
> Thanks!


Ok if the bees manage the hive. How is the honey collected? 
Or are your intentions a pet hive? 
Or should I say conservation hive? 
Something one just lets go wild? 
Is your design a longer hive? Just courious? 
Any luck with investors for your bee rescue? and are you a 501c3? Or any other non profit type? 
oh and how is that working with CCD dying in the news?
And the sprout up of all those other bee rescues? 
And if you are rescuing what are your reasoning behind buying more genetics?
If those hundreds of year old hives are the genetics you are trying to rescue? How do you know those hives are so old? if queens life spans are less then a decade? 
How do you know scouts from a fresh package wanting to swarm, did not scent out the left over honey , and take advatage of that ready built nest that you are cutting out?

Because I do know when I harvest honey before I shower, my bees scent me out in the oddest places. Not a good idea to walk around outside when one just harvested honey.. Honey bees smell you and light on you very fast.


----------



## Acebird

Tia said:


> Two hives is always better than one.


As a hobbyist I see no reason why a person has to have more than one hive. Situations can occur with multiple hives in close proximity of each other that will not happen with only one hive. Two hives is more involved for the beekeeper. Not everyone has the time or the desire to handle multiple hives or learn what it takes to be self sustaining. I have no problem with a person only wanting one hive for their enjoyment and replacing the bees when they die. Why should they not enjoy the bees?


----------



## Sticky Bear

Most of my hobbies revolve around gardening. I've taken a 1/2 acre of dirt and turned it into a garden full of flowers, herbs and vegetables. I needed a source for fertilizer and started raising chickens for manure, the wood chips from their coop provide manure covered mulch to replenish the soil and hold the moisture in on hot days, and the eggs are a bonus. Noticed all the bees I attracted and it made sense to complete the cycle of gardening with honey bees to pollinate my gardens, honey is a bonus. So for me having honey bees completes the circle of gardening. If my hives fail I will get more they complete the puzzle of gardening that I felt was missing. I see myself doing this until I can't lift a frame anymore. The wife and I have started talking about where we want to live in 5 years and how much land we want so I can expand on my hobby and allow for her to have alpacas for her hobby, knitting. I don't see failure, I see a future.


----------



## delber

Acebird said:


> As a hobbyist I see no reason why a person has to have more than one hive. Situations can occur with multiple hives in close proximity of each other that will not happen with only one hive. Two hives is more involved for the beekeeper. Not everyone has the time or the desire to handle multiple hives or learn what it takes to be self sustaining. I have no problem with a person only wanting one hive for their enjoyment and replacing the bees when they die. Why should they not enjoy the bees?


In part I don't know why I'm replying here as this can be refuted and has already. I know what it is to start with one hive. If you have queen issues they you're out of luck. If there are other "issues" then your again stuck. Having 2 hives doesn't take much more time to manage than 1 and it is a TON better as so many would also agree. I have a friend that started with one hive this year but he was counting on me if he had any issues. I caught a swarm about 2 weeks ago and now he has 2 hives so he's good to go for now. Without the "insurance" of a friend that would come and help I definitely wouldn't go with only one hive. Probably not even 2, but 3. Why do beekeepers fail? They spend too much money and not have the resources to do it or they get frustrated with things "happen" and quit. As has been said much better than I could much of the reason could be boiled down to attitude and desire. If you want to then you will. If you don't then you won't. I listened to a message once where a guy said "you have all the time in the world to do what you want to do". Meaning we prioritize those things high enough and do them. If we don't do them what we're really saying is we don't want to do it. To each his own. Not everyone can be or should be a beekeeper, but I'm thankful that I am. From one hive last year with a failing queen, bought 2, one was a dud and had to replace her also, and many other variables to now I had 6 hives. I just sold one because I was running out of time to manage things as a new beekeeper. We choose what we want.


----------



## Erik

Well I completely understand the viewpoint of the person who just wants one hive. First, you can start off for less money. Buying two or more sets of hive equipment can be very expensive. I was dumbfounded by the costs and the shipping was almost as bad. I decided I wouldn't pay for bees either. With just an ad on Craigslist I got called out to collect a swarm and ta-da, my first hive was going. Next swarm call I collected by they absconded (they were a big swarm, I think I didn't give them enough space). Yesterday I did a VERY SIMPLE cutout, and got a good mess of comb, bees, and brood (hopefully queen too). So I started out with buying zero bees. Free swarm, and then got PAID to get bees for my second hive. Yes, I'm happy to have more than one hive to compare each to the other, but if they die out I'm still getting more calls for more cut-outs. Next spring I'd just wait for the swarm calls to start over again. Loss of a single hive if that's all you have is no big deal if you're in it more for having the bees as pollinators instead of a honey crop.


----------



## Barry

BeeBrothersApiary said:


> beekeepers fail because they fail their bees! plan and simple.
> [snip]
> here is my short list to answer the "question"


I didn't see "beekeepers using cell phones while next to their hive" listed. I see you're promoting this theory on your website. You honesty believe cell phones are killing bees? I know mine does when I accidentally drop it on one.


----------



## Solomon Parker

I keep getting propolis on mine. It's my camera. Took all the pics on my website and blog with it. Bees are doing great! But anecdotal evidence is pretty unreliable. I digress.


----------



## Ramona

BeeBrothersApiary said:


> Colonies themselves do not fail, Humans fail them.
> 
> 
> 
> I read recently (can't recall where) that the chances of an unmanaged swarm making it through its first winter is about 10%. Will try and figure out where I read it. If this number is true, it puts things in a different perspective.
> 
> Ramona


----------



## Acebird

It's a number that doesn't mean anything. Winter where in Alaska or Alabama?


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> It's a number that doesn't mean anything. Winter where in Alaska or Alabama?


If your patient Acebird, Ramona may come across the article and then, perhaps, there will be more information.

In any case, I would trust Ramona. Misinformation from Ramona would be far more accurate than some that's spread around...


I thought that about a third of swarms survived but I may have read that on the interweb...


----------



## julysun

If only 10% survive in the wild then that hive would need to survive 10 years and spin off one swarm every year just to break even. Maybe that is why there are so few wild bees, at least around here.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> As a hobbyist I see no reason why a person has to have more than one hive. Why should they not enjoy the bees?


No one should be telling anyone that they have to have two hives. It's a recommendation for reasons stated in Tia's Post and probably other reasons also.

They should enjoy their bees. Are two so much more that the enjoyment is lessened?


----------



## BeeBrothersApiary

- it is already in use. It is being critiquted by current users. No. R&D phase with a few patents, copyrights and trademarks in development. I am taking Everything Honey Bee Corporation public, there are non-disclosure issues. 

Lazy Shot - Fantastic, I know a manager in Nashville with Firestone. They are hiring motivated wheel engineers. You would need to relocate to TN. 

S. Parker - by "Warre-ish" you mean top bar type, comb is built from the top, down? Yes and no. If you use blank frames, yes they will build the comb from the top of the frame down. If you use foundation, they will draw that sideways, hopefully. I don't know any Warre users, I've never seen an authentic Warre hive.

Sqkcrk - yes the premise is as old as the bees, that is the point. bringing their home back into line with what I see them create in the wild. Old, New, I don't know. I am not a historian of anything beekeeping. I have read no book on beekeeping, ever! My pages are the colonies I remove daily during the seasons. I know the success I've had duplicating that, today. and no, I didn't just wake up a seasoned beekeeper. 

S. Parker - we call it "The Successful Beekeeping Method"


Kristen beck said:


> ...They were full of honey and healthy going in to the winter then poof, all gone....


BeeG - The beekeeper collects the honey. The bees starve the coming winter. I remove surplus in the Spring. That's when it is truly surplus. I am not in the honey business, yet. Honey Bee Rescue, my non-profit, has a Honey Co-op component that will (simply put) supply the US with the 250 million pounds we import every year. 

.I pet my hives every day. you should too, just don't open them everyday.
.Let them go Hog-wild, for three four weeks, sure.
.Not a longer hive, a lighter hive. A hive that very nearly mimics every feature I see that has made up a successful hive. Commercial trucks will be able to carry significantly more frames on a trailer. Couple that with the Co-op component. 
.Bee Rescue is non profit in theory. Small local donors yes, nothing major because I haven't promoted the non-profit.
.I have no tv and I do not give any media outlet my time. I have never seen CCD in New England or NC. 
.I buy other genetics to supply the demand. Our Northern Hardy™ queen is a separate program. 
.Never seen a hundred year old hive. I have removed dozens over ten years. I don't seek out specific aged colonies. I do not run estimates. I go to a job, ask questions, do my work and go home. I know the hives are old, but I do not know the genetics are original. Big difference. Here is my point and why everyone is hung-up on this. 

I ask how old it is, the customer says; I bought the house 13 years ago and it was here then. I open the wall and the bees are top plate to floor plate in four stud pockets, another words 40 sq feet of space, 3 1/2 inches deep. If you have ever seen a hive in a wall you know it is about 3-4 layers thick. Every inch has bees on it, every cell has honey, pollen, nectar or eggs. some of the comb is tougher than shoe leather. I have no reason to doubt it. Then I brought it home and it has lived continously for another 4 years. It is about the cavity, it is about the comb design, it is about the entrance/exit, it is about the..get the point? if you are hung up on the dna of the bee, you miss the 13+ year old colony!!

.I have a queen six years old and hasnt been replaced yet. that is all i know about queen longevity.
.I have bees everywhere in my yard, in my car, in my garage, in my barns, sheds, just none in the house.

.a beekeeper (i didnt say hobbyist) imo should have half the total of full colonies worth of nucs. if you have 10 hives you should have 5 nucs also, in my opinion, and as part of my system. so each his own.

Barry - i dont do regular website maintence to any extreme. that cell phone story is old. takes up the space nice. recommend a new one and i will replace it. i dont know what is killing bees in large numbers, doubtful anyone else really does either. thanks for bringing that to my attention. 

Ramona - i would be willing to put a swarm into my system and prove it can survive two years minimum. of course, even with video everyone would bark at it. i do it all the time, so it is a no brainer bet. 

Email from 5/20/12


> Good morning -- Thought you would like to know that the only bees we got last year that survived the winter are the two hives we got from you.
> They are doing beautifully. THAnK YOU. We look forward to being on the short list for 2012. Be well.


if i missed your question sorry.


----------



## sqkcrk

Suffice it to say that cell phones and cell phone towers do not kill bees.


----------



## jim lyon

Cell phone schmell phone I'm waiting for details on the honey co-op that will cover our 250 million pound annual honey production shortfall. Based on current averages that should take a minimum of another 4 million hives. That will keep a lot of folks busy with cutouts for awhile. btw Barry is quite right, cell phones do kill bees, so do rocks, bricks, big sticks and even my size 12's on occasion. .


----------



## sqkcrk

I know technology is advancing making things smaller and smaller w/ more and more capability, but cell phones the size small enuf for honeybee use? Leading to texting while flying fatalities? I'd like to see the Police Reports and Stats.


----------



## BeeBrothersApiary

jim lyon said:


> ...Based on current averages that should take a minimum of another 4 million hives...QUOTE]
> 
> I estimate [our goal is] 50,000 additional colonies in every state. Not unreasonable and not products of cut-outs. Cut-outs go to the Rescue for rehab and later sold off as nucs. We will have a Fed Ex type system that moves cut-outs and honey to one central [co-op] location.
> 
> The bigger picture are my Franchisable "Box Stores". A local beek without processing equipment can bring their "surplus" to an Everything Honey Bee store (there will be one, at least, in every capital city to start, and we will process it behind glass so all the customers can watch, bottle it and custom label if so choose. Or we will buy it and it ships to the Co-op. Beeks don't need to borrow equipment, make a mess or sit for hours at the farmers market for $40. So each his own.
> 
> Also the beeswax, soap, candles, cosmetics, everything honey bee will be processed and packaged right in front consumers. First of its kind anywhere and they will expand Worldwide. The smell of the store will be awesome! This store will house EVERYTHING Honey bee, for beeks and average joes. It will be that one store that your guests in town will have to see! Christmas, forgetaboutit. That's the short.
> 
> The [store] will also have a Build-A-Bee section. Much like the build-a-bear kids go coo-coo over.
> 
> This is actually going to be a LARGE grass roots movement. Imagine for a second that China will loose $500 million dollars a year from honey exports because the US now supplies itself with honey. This will create issues deep in the commodities market and Governments. It will get very interesting. Will our Govt allow it? We'll see. O wait, we don't import honey from China..rotflmao The fall-out will speak volumes.
> 
> 
> There are also NO publically traded Honey Companies. Sue Bee is a Co-op, Everything Honey Bee, Inc. (HUNE or HONY) will be the First! Going public will fund, 50,000 colonies in each state, and the first few franchises will be Corporate owned, just for starters.
> 
> We are working on an [optional] hive gps tracking data system. yea I know, big brother...BooHoo...it's optional. We will unveil a very small device that will install on a hive and track its every move, management, disease, size, box material, you name it. We would like to see one on every hive. So yes, bees will have their own "Cell phones" if thats what you wanna call it. The data will be analyized by University "experts". That's the short.
> 
> 
> HBR also has an public educational component also. This business plan is largely aimed at Non-Beeks. So you're safe.
> 
> I am not here to seek legitamacy. Nor can I lay-out every detail of my business plan. The current business plan, in theory, will create thousands of jobs, Worldwide. No need to waste time picking my business plan apart, you have very limited details. Any constructive input is welcome. It's a dream and it's work.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks and Good luck.


----------



## jim lyon

Beebrothers: Sounds like the framework of a pretty well thought out plan you have there. I am particularly intrigued by these 50,000 additional hives per state. Let us know when these franchises are available.


----------



## Acebird

BeeBrothersApiary said:


> Or we will buy it and it ships to the Co-op. Beeks don't need to borrow equipment, make a mess or sit for hours at the farmers market for $40.


I like this part of the plan. I am surprised it hasn't been done already. Established clubs and associations might be good candidates for the franchises. Good Luck


----------



## lazy shooter

I'm way too old to get into a franchise business, but I will continue my work on improving the wheel. I'm thinking along the lines of something elliptical. Coil springs placed equal distance from the major axis would allow the possibility of perpetual motion. This concept would create a rough ride, but I think some super-shock absorbers may be in the final product. My objective is to have the ride soft enough so that a bee could be transported on it. I'm trying to fit this into binary numbers, but I am getting inundated with ones and zeros.


----------



## jim lyon

lazy shooter said:


> I'm way too old to get into a franchise business, but I will continue my work on improving the wheel. I'm thinking along the lines of something elliptical. Coil springs placed equal distance from the major axis would allow the possibility of perpetual motion. This concept would create a rough ride, but I think some super-shock absorbers may be in the final product. My objective is to have the ride soft enough so that a bee could be transported on it. I'm trying to fit this into binary numbers, but I am getting inundated with ones and zeros.


I'm with you LS the wheel is long due for an overhaul.


----------



## Solomon Parker

lazy shooter said:


> I'm way too old to get into a franchise business...elliptical...Coil springs...perpetual motion....super-shock absorbers...binary numbers...ones and zeros.


:lpf:

I see a solution, I don't see a problem. Otherwise I'd be a full time beekeeper rather than an engineer as there would be people beating down my door to purchase my products and use my extractor and uncapping knife. I am loathe to point out the obvious...my door is intact, and it is publicly known that I am currently in possession of queens, nucs, hives, wax, and an undisclosed quantity of bottled honey ready for sale. But far be it from me to squash someone's dreams.

Back to the original topic. I believe many new beekeepers fail due to artificially elevated expectations. We don't need to start a new 'treating versus not' discussion, but a major portion of newbees are starting with treated bees expecting not to treat them. I've seen it first hand this past year, and I'm seeing a fresh round this year. They were too impatient to wait to get treatment free nucs and instead went with commercially available packages. I was given a hive by one who failed last year, maybe I'll get more free equipment. Geez, that sounds morbid doesn't it?


----------



## Nabber86

lazy shooter said:


> I'm thinking along the lines of something elliptical. Coil springs placed equal distance from the major axis would allow the possibility of perpetual motion.


You mean something along the lines of _hexaganol_.

FTFY


----------



## honeyshack

Bee Brothers,
Intriguing solutions but some questions.
1. I am hard wired to look at hive health, control of diseases and health management of hives. This is where my passions lie. It comes from our cows, Herd health is a passion of mine. So, here you talk about sharing of equipment. How in the world will you control the risks of disease cross contamnation? From one beekeepers Equipment to another when extracting?

2. I am also hardwired to managing money...mostly COP...cost of production. One of the plans you mentioned is selling honey to the co-ops. How will you pay your beekeepers the same price as the co-op and the co-op to pay you that price as well as a mark up without driving the honey retail costs up? How will your consumers afford the end price?

3. I have yet to meet a beekeeper who only makes 40 at a farmers market. The trend these days is back to buying from the producer rather than the store...it is a trendy craze and it gains more and more ground every year.

From what I have read, you are looking at becoming the next "Cargill" or "JBS". Companies like this are hurting our cattle business to some degree. They contract cattle to house in their own lots. They have ownership of that calf from the time it is born till they slaughter it, paying the producer the contracted price. They do this so that they can drive the price down when the market gets to high for them by flooding the market with their own cows, fats, etc. They controll the prices, beginning and end. The business model you propose is much like what they do now. IMO if you are a packer of a commodity, ownership of what you are packing is wrong. Gives one too much control and power.

Intresting dream you have...


----------



## sqkcrk

BeeBrothersApiary said:


> Sqkcrk - yes the premise is as old as the bees, that is the point. bringing their home back into line with what I see them create in the wild. Old, New, I don't know. I am not a historian of anything beekeeping. I have read no book on beekeeping, ever!


He who fails to understand the past is destined to repeat it. There is a lot of information and many illustrations out there in the World which may help you w/ your design and suggest how it was used, changed and, in some cases, discontinued in it's use.


----------



## Solomon Parker

Maybe a picture or a diagram? A written description? I'm starting to think Lazy Shooter's perpetual motion wheel is looking favorable in credibility.


----------



## jim lyon

Solomon Parker said:


> Maybe a picture or a diagram? A written description? I'm starting to think Lazy Shooter's perpetual motion wheel is looking favorable in credibility.


I think it's in here somewhere. http://www.rubegoldberg.com/?page=gallery#


----------



## BeeCurious

Solomon Parker said:


> Maybe a picture or a diagram? A written description? I'm starting to think Lazy Shooter's perpetual motion wheel is looking favorable in credibility.


I think Lazy Shooter should team-up with Bee Brothers. http://www.beebrothers.org/management.php

Perhaps this picture will be helpful:


----------



## Solomon Parker

You would think the official Rube Goldberg website would be more complicated to navigate.

Bad joke.


----------



## jim lyon

Solomon Parker said:


> You would think the official Rube Goldberg website would be more complicated to navigate.
> 
> Bad joke.


Actually it was a really good joke, haven't those people learned anything.


----------



## Solomon Parker

After seeing the Bee Brothers website, I say this needs a whole thread of its own.


----------



## sqkcrk

Seeking 1.5 million dollars and primarys only invested $2,500.00 of their own? Seems slim. Also workers w/ only 7 years experience? Seems youngish for such an ambitious venture. The semi would impress someone else, but, like empty supers stacked to the sky, a tarped truck doesn't mean there is anything of worth under the tarps.

A well developed site which appears to show someone w/ business knowledge. I still don't know that they are good at beekeeping and the business of beekeeping.


----------



## Solomon Parker

sqkcrk said:


> A well developed site...


What did you see that I didn't? I saw misspellings, overlapped text and pictures, stock photos, pixelated graphics, clashing colors, and make sure to read the disclaimer at the bottom.


----------



## BeeCurious

Non of it struck me as being serious...


----------



## sqkcrk

I guess I didn't look past the glitz. I did see the disclaimer, but didn't read past the first line.

So Solomon, do you think this could all be smoke and mirrors?

Not serious? Then someone has way too much time on their hands.


----------



## JD's Bees

I'm kicking myself for making my nucs with 3 frames of brood when all I needed was one egg and a bee. Maybe that's why we're failing, wasting resources.


----------



## BeeCurious

sqkcrk said:


> I guess I didn't look past the glitz. I did see the disclaimer, but didn't read past the first line.
> 
> So Solomon, do you think this could all be smoke and mirrors?


I'm not sure they have mirrors yet...


----------



## Solomon Parker

They can buy some if you invest.

Mark, knowing what I know about the beekeeping industry, its history, and its people, it's hokum. Look up hokum, because I mean hokum. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hokum


----------



## sqkcrk

Good word.


----------



## John C

deknow said:


> ...I bet it also.doesn't say that staring at a link to an article is the best preparation to discuss the article.
> deknow


It's not often I read things here and laugh. But, I just did.


----------



## lazy shooter

I learned a new word, hokum. Now I will use the new word in a sentence. My posts about improving the wheel were actually hokum.


----------



## sqkcrk

I thought hokum was the cordlike stuff you forced into a crack to make something water tight. Hmmm. Maybe that's oakum.


----------



## Blaze

Hello All, 

I am a newbie and started the first week in May with two packages of bees in 8 frame medium hives. All seems to be going well and I do walk by my hives daily to make sure the bees are still there. I did not start this for the honey or any profits, but rather I do have a large garden and for the past several years have not notice any bees around to help in pollination. Problem solved. I did read books, viewed video's, and did research on the web. Still I'm amazed how overwhelming bee keeping can be. 

Started with a front end feeder and spilled the whole quart on the front entrance during the first week. Quickly leaned about robbing and ants. Then Flight orientation, bearding, brood comb, eggs, larva, drone cells, queen cells, pollen, nectar, burr comb, supersedure, mites, foulbrood, nosema, swarms...etc. It doesn't stop. Haven't even thought about honey harvest yet.

I'm keeping up with it all, but most people have no idea how much one has to know about raising healthy bees. I think newbies are overwhelm learning all about bees during their first year. I sure am and that is why I believe most give up. I thought bees have been around for thousands of years, why would they need any help from me. I give them a nice home, I feed them, control pest and diseases and thats about all I can do. Bees are going to do whatever they like, so there not much you can worry about.

BTW...Cucumbers and squash are fantastic this year.


----------



## Karen1611

I enjoy all the comments. I am a new beek and am learning much. I have already made some mistakes but have been adapting. I started with one hive then quickly learned it is better to have at least two. I bought two more nucs on May 31. The learning continues hopefully for a lifetime.


----------



## John C

Hokum if you got 'em.


----------



## Seymore

The reason beekeepers fail?

E. All of the above.


----------

