# Opinions Appreciated - Is this stealing???



## fhafer (Mar 27, 2005)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

Contact animal control and tell them what you want to do. Let them know about the untended hives and the ramifications. That's what I would try first.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

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Have your neighbor contact the city's Animal Control, and offer your assistance as a beekeeper to assist Animal Control.  If you just take the hives without any City approval, or consent of the property owner, (likely now the bank), your are stealing. Or try contacting the bank, and offer to remove the bee hazard.

If those hives were horses, instead of bees, there would be no question that taking the critters without permission would be stealing.

But its perfectly OK to set up swarm traps on your friend's property to see if you can harvest any possible swarms.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

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Just take them and leave a note with the neighbor and consider it a rescue. If ever taken to task, tell the tasker to come and get them. Enjoy the fruit of the rescue. Or go talk to the bank and offer to free of charge remove the attractive nuisance. Animal control people are often the biggest idiots in town.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

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I would definately contact the bank, if it has truly been forclosed on then it is bank owned property. You might get a rigamaroll but you also might get two free hives without worrying about the cops showing up at your house.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

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I agree with Vance, if the bank indeed owns the property, no way they are going to want bees at the house. Take them and if the guy ever comes back and complains then give them back to him. Chances are you will never see him if he has not been around for 6months.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

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Interesting dilemma. I had a couple of farmers with abandoned hives on their farms. Their calls to the owner of the hives went unreturned. The farmers called me to come get the hives, that they'd deal with the original owner. Nothing ever came of it.

The bank is the new owner of the property. I'll bet a nickel they don't want the hives on the place, nor do they want to incur any liability issues, which I would raise. I imagine a friendly visit to the bank offering your services to remove the bees, for free, might just net you a couple of hives. And it may be possible they don't even know the hives are there or what potential problems exist.

The bank is the key to legally acquire the hives. Tell the banker you'll bring him a jar of honey.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

The bank own the property, but not sure they would own the hives. However working through animal control is a good suggestion they have procedures for exactly this scenario.

I had a similar situation, I do bee control for our City Council and was requested to move a hive from a property that has lain vacant for more than 20 years. Went there, house nearly falling down, property totally overgrown, but the hive looked like it was being cared for. But no way to track the owner. A nearby school had complained that if something wasn't done, they would pour gasoline into the hive.

So, I took it, but left a large note there saying I had taken the bees, with my phone number. Around a month or so later I was contacted by the owner. He said he was unable to take the bees but could I look after them till he could. Around a year or so later he sorted some of his problems and came and collected them, after I had harvested several boxes of honey.


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

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I'm a realtor. I can tell you from experience that anything left on the property will most likely either get picked through and taken, destroyed or thrown out by the vendor they hire to clean out the property.

If the bank has foreclosed and the orginal owner is out of the picture, leaving a note with the neighbor is the most effort I would put out.

Calling the bank will be a waste of time. Take the hives...


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

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Of course its stealing. Your coworker doesn't own these hives, so how in the world would he have the authority to give them to you. You have to find out who has legal ownership of the property and talk to them. Worried about swarming - seriously??


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

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AstroBee said:


> Worried about swarming - seriously??


yes. worried. he saw them swarm last year ... 

OK, OK, I will attempt to contact the bank. I will let them know that I would like to "rescue" the bees before they are asked to pay to exterminate them.


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## Jayoung21 (Jun 22, 2010)

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I would contanct the bank and tell them for a nominal fee of $100 per hive you will provide your service to remove the "neusance" hive


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

I agree with finding out for sure that the bank does own the property. 

Good luck getting anyone on the phone from the bank who is willing to give you permission to go on the property and do something that has potential for a law suit. 

Please post the outcome.


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## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

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Oh, you mean your hives that your friend was temporaraly letting store on his property?


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

If it was me, I would just make contact with the neighbor to let them know what you are doing and then rescue the hives. Woodguyrob is right, the bank may ask if you have insurance and such so they cant be held liable if you or someone else would get hurt. Then if you dont have insurance they would call someone who does and you would lose out on two hives. It shouldnt take you too long to get the hives out of there, and with the neighbor being in the loop of what you are doing, the phone wont be ringing to the authorities. 

I also think that animal control may not grant you permission, or they may already have a beekeeper on the hook that will benefit from the hives, again, instead of you.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

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Mr. C said:


> if it has truly been forclosed on then it is bank owned property. .


Mr. C, very well said.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

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Mosherd1 said:


> if the bank indeed owns the property, no way they are going to want bees at the house. Take them and if the guy ever comes back and complains then give them back to him.


Oh, I see, take first, then give back later if someone complains.  

Nice... some really ethical keepers on this board


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

Actually, Astrobee is correct. Taking them without the owners permission is stealing.

However, the bank is not the owner, or even if they are they would see the hives as a nuisance and would pay someone to remove or destroy them. Woodguyrob is correct on that.

So, taking them is stealing them. But leaving them, it's likely they will go somewhere other than to the owner. The way to do it with absolute clear conscience, to me, would be to make best efforts to locate the owner. Once that's been exhausted, take them & leave a note. be prepared if the owner ever does show up, to return them. Frankly, the owners interests are better protected if you take the hives, than if some cleanup guy does it.


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## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

Contact the bank and see if the property is for sale and if there is a realitor you can talk to. Go through the realitor if possible and leave the bank out of it. Work the angle that you are removing a bunch of stinging insects that could blow a sale and by removing the bees you are helping out. If there isn't a realitor then go through the bank, you could even offer to buy the hives from the bank if push comes to shove.
If the property has been abandoned by the owner then I would think that anything left on the propery has been abandoned also.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

It all seems like a lot of headache for a couple free hives.
Equipment and bees that where more than likely taken poor care of.
Even if the bank where to ask you to remove the "owner" might feel you stole them.
How much is this stuff worth to you?


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

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Call the bank! When a property is foreclosed the bank just sends people in to clean the mess up so they can sell it. They don't care where the stuff goes, usually to the dump. Be persistent! I have tried to deal with several banks on foreclosed property but around here they have so many foreclosures the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing. You'll get a big runaround but keep after them. Explain that it's swarm season and they may have to pay to get someone to capture swarms on the property or on other folks property. Tell them the neighbor, your coworker, is next door and wants the bees gone or he may take legal action.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

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Mbeck said:


> It all seems like a lot of headache for a couple free hives.


really?? seems like something quite simple to me. Make a call to the bank, go pick up two hives that have survived the winter with no feeding, or winter prep.


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## wkinne (Jul 17, 2010)

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How close are you to Michigan? ;=P

A friend of mine cleans forclosed houses for a local credit union, everything she does not want goes to the trash. She once gave away 30 hives full of bees and I think she said over 200 gallons of honey some old guy had before he lost his home. She can give the bees away as long as she does not give them to the old home owner. It was before I started keeping bees, but I am on her list if it ever happens again.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

I am sure there are thousands of hives that nobody has been near in the past six months. and the owners still feel every one of those hives are their possession. Nobody made you an authority in determining what care or ownership of a hive is. In fact nobody says you have to care for a hive to own it. So the whole rational of I will take it because what is being done to them is not right goes out the window. If it doesn't I just need to come up with something I don't like about how you care for your hives and I can then take them. Even if all the bees die the hives themselves are the property of someone else. I don't see much of a question about whether it is stealing or not. I let a broken down truck set in my driveway and rot for 7 years. we used it for storage. It was still mine and would have prosecuted anyone that tried to steal it. That you might disagree with what I do with my property is not justification for you to take it.

There might be a chance that Animal Control woudl see it as abandonment or neglect and they might even accept your offer to be the rescuing agent but don't be surprised if they don't. I am the type that would at least give it a shot. there is no chance of a yes if you don't. Otherwise there is no question just going and taking the hives is theft.


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## flatfootflukey (Jun 15, 2010)

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Good answer Daniel Y I totally agree with your point of view.
The very definition of stealing is “To take (the property of another) without right or permission.” As defined by the free dictionary.http://www.thefreedictionary.com/steal
Not passing judgment or anything just my opinion, but on moral deals like this people usually already know the answer to a question in their heart before they look for validation or try to justify their actions. So it’s best to just go with your heart


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

Agreed.

BUT 

To sell the property, the bank will first want rid of the bees, plus anything else that's laying around. If he doesn't get the bees, someone else will, or an exterminator then they go in the trash.

Personally I would not feel bad long as I made my best effort to contact the owner, plus opened some kind of way he could contact in the future if he wished.

However there may be another way, if it turned out the bank does now have legal ownership, then they may give permission for them to be removed.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

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Oldtimer, Nothing but an attempt to justify wrong behavior. Who are you to decide for the bank what they will or will not want? Did you ask them? What if you take the hives and then find out they thought they increased the value of the property? and prosecute you for that value. It is not any different than the owner stripping the house of the plumbing. I suppose the bank didn't want that old piping anyway right? And that out of date wiring needs to be replaced anyway. and none of those windows are up to current standards so why not take those also. And dang look at the raggedy condition of that fence. Obviously the bank won't want that around to drive down the value of the property. and that hot tub on that run down deck. that really has to go. By the way while you are there tidying things up for the benefit of the bank. don't park your truck on the property You are likely to come back and find a friendly helpful neighbor decided that removing it would improve the value of the property.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

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Agreed. (Although in a less high blood pressure kind of a way). 

Read again the last part of my post. I said the bank may give permission. In other words, seek it. I don't recommend taking the property of others without asking. 

Peace, love, and chill some!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

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Stealing, what a joke. It is abandon property, not cared for. The bank does not take title to anything on the property only the structures. If it is a vehicle they call someone to haul it away as junk. The junk dealer crushes it or files documents to get the title changed.
Watch "Storage Wars" it will give you a Hollywood version of property transfer. Or you could just observe millions of people picking up abandoned property at the curbside.


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## Monkadelic (Feb 5, 2010)

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Where I am, you can get on the county property appraiser's website and it will tell you who owns the property and, if it is still an individual (as it does take time for the bank to take over, the house two doors down from me has been abandoned two years and still hasn't been taken over by the bank) there often is a second address. That may help you contact the owner. Alternately, if it is bank owned, see if you can find out who does the cleanup, like wkinne's friend and give them a call. Most banks are hiring outside companies to do cleanup these days, at least in heavily foreclosed areas.


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## justinh83 (Aug 2, 2010)

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What if you take the hives and then find out they thought they increased the value of the property? 

I doubt the bank will be ordering an appraisal of a foreclosed property to determine the contributory value of a few beehives. Also, they are personal propery, and thus do not directly contribute to the value of the real estate in question. Honestly, try the bank. The worst that can happen is that they say no. The banks have foreclosure divisions. I would start there.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

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Acebird said:


> Stealing, what a joke. It is abandon property, not cared for. The bank does not take title to anything on the property only the structures.


Wow, for once I agree with Ace. 

I live in a neighborhood that had 6 abandoned house (foreclosed, bank-owned, whatever). Two of these houses were right next door to me. All of the houses were ransacked. Everything gone from the wiring to the light fixtures, even the countertops and doors were takin. Neighberhood kids are smoking pot in them and spray-painting the walls. One house had an exploading feral cat population and the house was full of trash. The yards/bushes/trees are completely over-grown from years of neglect. Anyway, I am sick and tired of my property value going down because of these nuisances. I havent taken anything yet, but I plan on being first one in line with a sledge hammer and pry-bar when the next one goes under. If they had hives in the backyard, I would not hesitate to take them. Screw 'em

Call the bank? That is a complete joke. Have any of you that recommend calling the bank actually ever tried it? We called the bank, the sheriff, county property appraiser, and animal control. Nobody is going to talk to you.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

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Ace you are correct. I was actually waiting for someone to bring up that point. It just shows how many will assume the bank owes the personal property along with the real estate. The point you still fail to mention is that the bank does have an obligation in regard to that personal property. I have actually done the clean up on dozens of residences. and the law is very clear on how the property must be handled and for how long. It is not in fact considered abandoned. You are considered as doing anyone any favor to remove it. It is known as looting. I find it interesting how many will reveal a tendency to abandon decency with such little temptation though. If these hive where offered for sale the very same people would caution against it due to unknown diseases. Very interesting just what will bend particular opinions in one direction or another. Don't buy a used hive. but steal one for sure. You have done nothing more than revealed to me how easily you can be persuaded to thievery. I also consider an indication of who woudl without troubling their conscience sell me diseased bees.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

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Daniel Y said:


> You have done nothing more than revealed to me how easily you can be persuaded to thievery.


Thank you Daniel for your thoughtful response - certainly needed in this thread.


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## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

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jayoung21 said:


> I would contanct the bank and tell them for a nominal fee of $100 per hive you will provide your service to remove the "neusance" hive


Heck yeah charge for the removal since the banks haven't stopped charging us.


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## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

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I don't agree with just taking the hives which is stealing, contacting the bank which is the legal owner of the property is the proper channels to follow when it involves any personal property left on the grounds. The bank has specific procedures to follow when it needs to have personal property removed from the real estate it now owns. I believe the bank needs to try to contact the original owners by certified mail and them if there is no reply after a set time the bank can do what it thinks is best for the bank's interest. It is a lot like a landlord who has a tennent skip out on the rent, all reasonable attempts must be made to contact the tennent or orignial propery owner but if there is no reply then the personal property becomes the property of the landlord or bank. Then the personal property can be disposed of as the landlord or bank see fit. I was a landlord for about 7 years and had to go through this exact thing four or five times with deadbeat tennents. Each state has different laws about abandoned personal property which is why going through the bank is the proper way to proceed, they have lawyers that understand this situation much better than anybody on this board, no offense ment to everybody here.
Ed


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## Bee-tlejuice (Oct 2, 2007)

@Daniel Y: "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." At the moment, you seem quite dangerous indeed, since this is neither looting nor thievery -- silly. The O.P. IS doing *everyone* a favor by removing said *abandoned* hives -- in fact he's enforcing IL State law. He is considering doing the *decent* thing -- preserving *abandoned* bee colonies. The owner LEFT the colonies *YOU "think" he meant to keep* BEHIND but went to lengths to RIP PIPES OUT OF THE HOUSE and has been GONE for 6 MONTHS? Drink some *caffeinated* tea or coffee -- you're not awake yet .

@c10250 et al.: Most states, including IIRC Illinois, require beekeepers to be registered with the state. In this particular situation, the pipe-ripping incident, which probably rendered the house unfit for occupation, emphasizes the owner's probable intent to abandon the entire property, *including the bees and their hives*. If the beekeeper can not be contacted via telephone/cell phone or e-mail or doesn't return any messages left by those methods within 2-3 business days at most *in this particular situation*, it's safe to consider him to be in violation of IL state law.
First, if you're not registered with IL as a beekeeper, then get registered before taking *any* direct action -- no sense calling in an IL State airstrike on your own position . If you don't want to register, then pass on the info regarding the hives to someone nearby who is.
Presuming you are registered: Regarding the bank: the bank is almost certainly *NOT* an IL State registered beekeeper -- therefore, under IL State law, they're technically not allowed to have the beehives in their possession in IL -- the most they're probably allowed to do is have someone appraise the value of the hives and auction them off to a registered beekeeper. They probably don't even know the hives exist. So, do *not* ask the bank for permission -- you don't need it.

1. Draft a note, including your IL state registration number and contact info, stating that you're a registered IL beekeeper and that these beehives seem to be abandoned and that you are taking custody of them to ensure their health, safety, and continued survival, that you are removing them to a safer location more convenient for you to tend and care for them, and emphasize that the owner is welcome to his beehives and that you're looking forward to hearing from him. Also, if you're willing to collect swarms and/or do cutouts/other bee removals, include a "To whom it may concern:" section saying so.
2. Make at least 5-6 copies or so of the note, then go to the property.
3. If the whole lot is cordoned off, try to circle outside the cordon to establish that the hives are still present -- if they are still there, go back to the front of the property and untie or cut the tape (try to fasten it back when you leave with the hives) and then shove a copy of the note under every door of the house and tape a copy to the front and back doors *before* proceeding to the hives. That way, if a police officer shows up and tries to hassle you, state that you are a registered beekeeper enforcing state law, that all occupied man-made beehives in the state must be kept in custody of registered beekeepers -- if he tries to insist on getting the bank's permission or other such B.S., inform him that there is no evident markings of the state-required registration ID on the beehives corresponding to the bank's beekeeping registration number -- and refer him to the notices you've already placed (that shows that you've been above board with this) *and* continue to remove the hives -- if he asks you to leave without the hives, remind him politely that he's not IL State's head beekeeper and thus can't override IL State beekeeping law, then invite him to follow you to the bees' new home. Also, you should remove any empty hives or supers that may be around out in the open or under a lean-to, since those threaten to pose an attractive nuisance by drawing swarms of honeybees to occupy them.

If the bank gets ****y and tries to bill you for them, you can bill them for the removal and threaten to report them to the State to be fined for their illegal unregistered beekeeping on that property. Most likely though, they'll appreciate having been saved from a potentially STICKY situation by a helpful beekeeper. This will likely be the start of a mutually beneficial relationship between you and the bank -- they have found a helpful honeybee removal agent for any swarms or beehives they encounter in the future. Also, to those contending that the hives aren't abandoned -- the owner would have removed the hives *before* ripping pipes out of his house if he wasn't abandoning the hives, since the beehives are more valuable and easier to remove than those pipes, right?


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*



Daniel ..... Don't buy a used hive. but steal one for sure. ....bees.[/QUOTE said:


> I don't mind buying used hives . . .


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

Bee-tlejuice -- I am registered with Illinois. Thanks for the response.

Very interesting. In Illinois all bee hives must be registered with the State to be considered legal. The hives must have the beekeepers ID on them. I will be willing to bet that there is no beekeepre identification on these hives, thus making them illegal. Now, if I inform the realtor or the bank that they have illegal hives on their property, and I am a registered beekeeper with the State of Illinois, I might just get their attention.

Ken


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## millerwb (Oct 31, 2011)

Bee-tlejuice said:


> @Daniel Y: "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." At the moment, you seem quite dangerous indeed, since this is neither looting nor thievery -- silly. .... Drink some *caffeinated* tea or coffee -- you're not awake yet .
> 
> @c10250 et al.: Most states, including IIRC Illinois, require beekeepers to be registered with the state. ..... So, do *not* ask the bank for permission -- you don't need it.
> 
> That way, if a police officer shows up and tries to hassle you, state that you are a registered beekeeper enforcing state law, that all occupied man-made beehives in the state must be kept in custody of registered beekeepers -- if he tries to insist on getting the bank's permission or other such B.S., inform him that there is no evident markings of the state-required registration ID on the beehives corresponding to the bank's beekeeping registration number -- and refer him to the notices you've already placed (that shows that you've been above board with this) *and* continue to remove the hives -- if he asks you to leave without the hives, remind him politely that he's not IL State's head beekeeper and thus can't override IL State beekeeping law, then invite him to follow you to the bees' new home.


With derogatory attitude and advice like this, I know it will be a while before I would offer an opinion. I am glad that this person does not live in my state and offer this advice here. It could at the least get you a night in jail, at the worst, shot.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Yeah know this thread really hits close to home. I have some property that I have owned for twenty years right next to Sacramento, I have used this as a bee yard in the winter & summer months. I pulled all my hives out but three duds to go to almond pollination this year, the gate was all mangle when I left, so I asked a friend to come down and pour some new post to hang the gate on. While Scott was fixing the gate two guys show up to pick up the last three hives. Scott called and asked who are these guys... I could only whished that I had answer the phone, so when I did get the message he said he got there phone numbers & licence plates.

So, I called them and said if I don't get these hives back tonight, I am going to unload my truck (216 hives) threw your front dining room window. 

needless to say the hives were returned.

never know when you might need the power of the swinger 1K.


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## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

If you are going onto the property which is owned by the bank without the bank's permission one of the first things that the police officer will think is that you are trespassing no matter what you post on the house about saving abandoned bee hives. Since the house has been vandalized there is a possibility that the cop will think that you are there to do more damage to the building. Of course this can only happen if a cop shows up when you are picking up the hives. To keep it legal either find the original owner of the hives or go through the bank. If you want to just go out and grab the hives toss one or two beat up boxes with some frames in the place the hives were. That way it looks like the hives died out and no questions will come up about what happened to them. But that still would be stealing IMHO.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

it’s turning out to be quite a contentions conversation. Look, there’s no way I’m just taking them. I’ll talk to the realtor, the bank, the police, or the dog catcher, or whoever, but there’s no way I’m just going back there with my truck and hauling them off.

Secondly, if/when I do take them, I’ll make sure that whoever left them there will be able to get hold of me. 
Ken


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## tsk (Nov 26, 2010)

To technically be law abiding and avoid any issues of stealing, aren't the beehives technically property and the bees merely wild animals living in said property?


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## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

It got a little hot but in a good way. I would hate to see two hives go to waste, good luck with it.


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

The answer is easy, go to the home and take the frames and leave the hives, then put a note on the hives stating that you "rescued" the bees and you would like to have the hives aswell with your name and address. Don't over-think this thing and go get the bees. You will loose the foragers but you will get the rest. Good luck.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Mother Theresa sure would be proud of all the folks concern about this hive, but not concerned about how they get it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

ctgolfer said:


> The answer is easy, go to the home and take the frames and leave the hives, then put a note on the hives stating that you "rescued" the bees and you would like to have the hives aswell with your name and address. Don't over-think this thing and go get the bees. You will loose the foragers but you will get the rest. Good luck.


Now that does seem like stealing to me.

I also think if you can't tell if something you are considering is stealing or not, then it is.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Keith, if you want to abandon 216 hives I know some people that will take good care of them. I always thought stealing was taking something that someone wanted or cherished.
Oh, if you leave your car on our property and take the plates off I will put that to good use too. We donate cars to charitable organizations. They will hold on to if for a while in case you want it back but usually it goes to the crusher or auction. Mother Theresa would be proud of what we do. Just so you know if you leave your car on the New York State Thruway it will be towed (with or without plates) and you will pay quite a bit to get it back. The meter ticks by the day. It is not called stealing and it is encouraged by the state so our roads don't look like junk yards.

In the case of these abandoned hives I would call what ever law enforcement body has jurisdiction over this area telling them that you are going to retrieve the hives before they become a problem. I am sure they will take down your name and location so the previous owner can discuss moneys due for such care. If the bank is known I would write a letter saying the hives were removed from the property so they needn't worry about the liabilities anymore.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The owner of the hives is the owner of the property on which they sit. If anyone moves anything off that property w/out the permission of that owner then that is stealing.

Of course, people can justify just about any questionable action.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

What the heck are you talking about Mark. If you put your hives on someone else's property then they own them now? Think about what you said.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

Move the hives on to your property and "care" for them.

if anyone comes asking for them later deal with that then. Otherwise care for the "lost" hives.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Keith, Just so you know if you leave your car on the New York State Thruway it will be towed (with or without plates) and you will pay quite a bit to get it back. The meter ticks by the day. It is not called stealing and it is encouraged by the state so our roads don't look like junk yards.
> .


Boy Ol'e Boy.... That is state owned highway NOT private property. As far as you taking care of my 216 hives.... I wouldn't trust you to mow my back yard.


P.S. I sure wonder what happens to all the wild hives out there, I wonder if folks are kicking down fences & sawing down trees to make sure the bees have a "right to passage".


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I would suggest that the coworker of the OP refinance his home... cash-out for the maximum and then walk... Then the OP could load up the hives along with the copper pipe and wiring from the former coworker's house.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

schmism said:


> Otherwise care for the "lost" hives.


Lost...????? where are they suppose to be, in a tree hole , hollow log....... Oh, that's right.... there suppose to be in YOUR back yard free of charge.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BeeCurious said:


> Then the OP could load up the hives along with the copper pipe and wiring from the former coworker's house.


LOL.... Right on target BC. very well said.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> What the heck are you talking about Mark. If you put your hives on someone else's property then they own them now? Think about what you said.


We are talking about abandoned hives here. Pay attention. My hives are on property owned by people I have contracts with. They aren't abandoned.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Call the bank. They wont want the liability and will give them to you to save them the trouble. Call them. Take the high road it will pay off better in the end.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Just wonder how concerned you "just take the hives and run" crowd would be if instead of the easy to grab and dash langstroth hives it was actually a colony living in the chimney of the "abandoned" home. How fast would you all be to get your ladder and sawsall out to rescue these poor abandoned bees. Yes, we know, these maneaters might swarm reduce your honey yield, oops I mean land on granny's porch and scare her, poor granny we've got to recuse these bees!! Shoot, might just as well grab the shrubs out front as no ones watering them - clearly abandoned, and that mailbox is looking pretty nice too. 

I think we need a beesource Wall of Shame, as this would be a prime candidate.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Correct. Obviously, the best way is for the bank to be forced to hire a contractor to poison and then burn the bees. 

Everybody will be much better served.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

EastSideBuzz said:


> Call the bank. They wont want the liability and will give them to you to save them the trouble. Call them. Take the high road it will pay off better in the end.


What he said.


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## millerwb (Oct 31, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> Shoot, might just as well grab the shrubs out front as no ones watering them - clearly abandoned, and that mailbox is looking pretty nice too.
> 
> I think we need a beesource Wall of Shame, as this would be a prime candidate.


:applause:


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

wow guys! Equating taking a hive of abandoned bees to ripping a mailbox out of the front yard. Really??? 

OK, there's no way this guys coming back to get them. We all know that. He's been long gone, after being arrested for ripping pipe. 

Also, ripping shrubs, mailboxes, . . . , etc. would clearly be vandalizing the place, diminishing its value. Taking an abandoned hive and leaving contact information would be as far from vandalizing as you can get. It might actually increase the value of the place. . . 

My co-worker told me today that another neighbor wants the hives gone too, and has been complaining. That makes two immediate neighbors who want these hives out, and will eventually be doing something to get them out. 

Anyone who equates taking an abandoned hive that the neighbors want out, with ripping a mailbox out of the front yard, is beyond even discussing this issue with. Your logic just makes me roll my eyes.

As far as "wall of shame" goes . . . I can't figure out why anyone would want the hives to just sit there forever. That's pretty shameful!

Cut-outs - Good job
Trap-outs - Great!
Swarm Captures - Awesome 
taking an abandoned hive - that's nothing more than ripping out a mailbox???


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

That's not the point. The point is that decisions made about property are the owners to make. You are probably right that it would help resale value to have them gone, which is why I presume the owner (bank?) would be happy to see someone take them. I doubt they would even have an idea of any monetary value they had, just the nuisance to themselves. Ask.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

cg3 said:


> That's not the point. The point is that decisions made about property are the owners to make. You are probably right that it would help resale value to have them gone, which is why I presume the owner (bank?) would be happy to see someone take them. I doubt they would even have an idea of any monetary value they had, just the nuisance to themselves. Ask.


ditto


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

C10250,

Just make the address public and I'm sure the hives will disappear (wink, wink) .

While I would never steal a mailbox, I would consider an exchange...


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

cg3 said:


> The point is that decisions made about property are the owners to make.


CG3, well said.


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## Pond Creek Farm (Jun 11, 2009)

The bees are not your bees. The only way you can gain ownership of the bees is if they are given to you, you purchase them or they are abandoned. The first two are not the case per your description. So, the question is whether or not the bees are abandoned personal property. I would not take that risk. I would either buy them from the rightful owner or have them given to you by the rightful owner. If you take them without purchase or permission, you will be a trespasser and a converter of personal property until you prove otherwise. While the good of the end is easily understood, the law will not so easily condone the means.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

I dont know, its a tough thing for me. I am smart enough not to even THINK about going into the almonds and stealing hives because I know they belong to someone, although it would be easy and I am sure people do it.

I had commercial guys all around my old house last summer with atleast 3-4 hundred hives within walking distance of my house and I never once thought of stealing a hive, although I was intreagued and wanted to get right into the middle of everything to see, but when the beekeepers showed up I also didnt want to bother them because I knew they had work to do.

I guess I have a spot in my brain for rescueing things. I would rather give something a chance than watch it diminish or be killed off.

Although I personally wouldnt go onto the property without permission, and I would contact someone who could handle things (cops, bank, realtor) at the same time I wouldnt want to see the resource go to waste. But I know...............its not mine, so leave it. It would just suck to watch an exterminator show up and kill off the hives, I would rather see them go to someone even if it wasnt me.

I'll just stick to my permisable trap outs and swarm catches...............much easier on the conscience that way as they are being legally obtained.


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## flatfootflukey (Jun 15, 2010)

c10250 said:


> As far as "wall of shame" goes . . . I can't figure out why anyone would want the hives to just sit there forever. That's pretty shameful!


I don’t think anyone is saying the hives need to or should sit there forever. I believe the point is, if you don’t obtain them through the proper channels it is stealing.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

c10250 said:


> OK, there's no way this guys coming back to get them. We all know that.
> 
> I can't figure out why anyone would want the hives to just sit there forever.


You don't know that. You are simply assuming something. No one wants the hives to sit there forever. They just don't belong to the person most concerned.

What would happen were you to be found by thge Police when loading the hives and when asked who they belong to you had no idea, what would the Police think and do? This is a simple case of they don't belong to you and you do not have t he right to go on someone elses property and remove anuything w/out the permission of the ownwer. Period. 

Find out who owns them and get permission.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Bee-tlejuice said:


> @Daniel Y: "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." At the moment, you seem quite dangerous indeed, since this is neither looting nor thievery -- silly.


Then go take the hives and then tell the back, the police and the owner that you did so. In that order. Otherwise even you suspect you are full of it.

The bank cannot give the hives to just anyone. They have a legal responsibility. You might want to look into the laws concerning foreclosure or other seizure of property.

As for stealing, It is taking anything that belongs to someone else. Yours, mine or anyone elses disapproval of how they think feel or treat what they have does not change that it is theirs.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

sqkcrk,..the OP said in post #1 that he had no intention of taking the hives without some ideas about how to get permission or what to do. I think that was answered in page 1 or 2. until somebody mentioned something about an old truck in *their *driveway at a house they still owned, which is hardly the case here. Post #1: >_ "My coworker is worried about swarming and wants me to come and take the hives. I told him that I wasn't going to steal anyone's beehives." <

_What is the moral of this thread? I need to make out a will to make sure my bees are well fed, taken care of and provided with good homes. I wouldn't want my million$ to go to some undeserving heirs,.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Dang Mark, I must be slipping. I think we might agree again.

Do I think the hives shoudl set there and rot? NO I don't I think it is a shame. but that may be exactly what they do. I don't think it is right that the 57 chevy sets in my neighbors driveway and rusts away either. But he still thinks he will work on it someday.

Do I think the owener will return eventually? No I don't, Btu I could be wrong. Even if he doesn't it is likely that the bank is responsible for the property for only so long. that time may have passed and they will not care if you take them.

Do I think that if you ask the bank if you can have them they will let you have them? No I don't. It puts them at a liability to let you. At best they will say what we don't know doesn't hurt us. take them but don't let anyone see you. They will not stop you and will not assist you either and you take them at your own risk.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> What would happen were you to be found by thge Police when loading the hives and when asked who they belong to you had no idea.


I would never put myself in that position.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...get one of.the neighbors to claim the hives.belong to one of them, and buy the hives for $1 from the neighbor...get a bill of sale in writing that states the seller owns the hives. Now the neighbor is.putting their own neck out to solve.their problem.
Deknow


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> We are talking about abandoned hives here.


That is the point, abandoned. Something that is abandoned can't be stolen. All you need is approval to enter the property and take the hives which you could get from law enforcement. The original owner still has the opportunity to reclaim his possessions but not without costs and the costs do not have to be less then the value of the property.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> What would happen were you to be found by thge Police when loading the hives


If you made an arrangement with the police they might accompany you. You are identifying who you are, where you live, and where the hives will be located. No theft involved, all on the up and up. Law enforcement is usually involved on the reclaim also if it should occur. The original owner is now in a position to prove ownership which typically means court fees.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> If you made an arrangement with the police they might accompany you. You are identifying who you are, where you live, and where the hives will be located. No theft involved, all on the up and up. Law enforcement is usually involved on the reclaim also if it should occur. The original owner is now in a position to prove ownership which typically means court fees.


Are there any typos in the above?

I'm not sure you typed what you meant to...


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Acebird said:


> That is the point, abandoned. Something that is abandoned can't be stolen. .


That is the point that you are way off, the hive is not abandoned, hive thrive for thousands of years without any help from us, so that poor excuse isn't going to work.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Acebird said:


> That is the point, abandoned.


Now we're back to taking that mailbox. And, in America, police cannot make decisions on what happens to your one's property without a court order.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

No decisions are being made. They take information and act as a witness and if they accompany you to the site they prevent any altercations. Property ownership and the transfer of property is something that is dealt with quite often in the self storage business. There are rules and guidelines and yes sometimes the courts are involved with valuable property, not so much with abandonment.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I can guarantee that the cops will not assist you in tresspassing and stealing property. But why go through all the moral gymnastics when it would be easy to find out who owns the property and ask?


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Wow.
Talk about getting 11 opinions from 10 beekeepers!

To me, this looks pretty straightforward.

First, It's pretty safe bet from the original post that the previous owner is not coming for the hives after stealing pipes and such from the foreclosed house. It was the mortgage holder's house at that point; if it were his, he wouldn't be moving.

So he abandoned the hives. 

Second, the hives are not real property, but personal property left behind. Real property would be a fixed part of the structure, land, or landscaping (like a tree, mailbox or fence.)
The mortgage holders only moral or legal claim is to the real property that secured the mortgage. 
They have no claim to the hives since they are personal property.

Therefore those hives presently have no owner and cannot be stolen, only claimed.
They will belong to any person who claims them as his own.

The police -- if they took notice and did anything-- would certainly have better things to do than deal with the hassle of a non crime.
Particularly when it involves handling thousands of stinging insects as evidence.

C10250, if you want the hives, take them with a clear conscience.
If not, please PM me with the address, and I will.
I'm moving to Oregon in May and will be going right past your town on I-90


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

This thread has a lot of really bad assumptions.

1 - The police do not care and are not going to get involved no matter how much you explain your position. It doesn’t matter what your intents are. If you told the police that you wanted to mow the lawn because it has been overgrown for 2 years, they will say they cannot enter the property, period (although they may add that they are going to pretend that they didn’t hear the question and may even tell you that they only patrol the area on Wednesdays at 2 pm in the afternoon - wink, wink, nudge, nudge). 

2 - Similarly the bank does not care and wants nobody on the property, period. No amount of reasoning is going to change that, liability issues be ****ed. The whole property is a liability and they are not going to differentiate between a bee hive in the back yard to rabid raccoons living inside the house. That is assuming that you actually track down someone at the bank to talk to, which IS NOT going to happen. 
3 - Animal control? Get real. They work with kitties and puppies. They are not going to touch bees. Even if they did, you are not going to work out a deal with them for you to retrieve the bees. The have absolutely no authority to do so. A city nuisance inspector may come out and spray/kill the hives, but again they have no authorization to let you take the hives. After all they are city workers with and are not going to take on any liability that jeopardizes their job.

4 – Contact the home owner? What a complete joke! The home owner is long gone and is not going to return. If he still owns the property, he is lying low until the bank takes it. If the bank does own it, he doesn’t care anymore and he cannot return to retrieve things anyway. Either way, even if you were able to track him down, does anyone really think that he is going to start talking to a stranger on the other end of the line that is asking questions about his property? Get real people, he is going to hang up immediately, that is if he answers the phone in the first place.

5 - When it comes time to clean out what is left of the house, they bank will send over a shady looking crew in a shady looking truck (think Fred Sanford) to remove the stuff. That is if there is anything left. The crew won’t touch bee hives, they are basically looking for scrap. After everything is cleaned out (sans the bee hive), the bank will eventually hire a shady contractor (lowest possible bid) that will patch the damage up as cheaply as possible and then turn around and sell the house to a shady looking buyer. Either the contractor or the new owner will end up spraying the hive with Raid.

In my experience, this is how the process has worked time and time again it my neck of the woods. \

So is any of this justification for stealing? Heck no, it’s still stealing. But the system is broke, so screw ‘em and take the hives. It wouldn’t bother me in the least. If you have moral issues with this, then don’t take the hives.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Beregondo said:


> Wow.
> Therefore those hives presently have no owner and cannot be stolen, only claimed. They will belong to any person who claims them as his own.
> 
> The police -- if they took notice and did anything-- would certainly have better things to do than deal with the hassle of a non crime. Particularly when it involves handling thousands of stinging insects as evidence.


True, but if you set foot on the property, it would be trespassing. However, you are absolutely right about the Po-po. It’s not like that are staking the place out. If caught (and that a big if) the worst they would do is tell you to put the hive down and get lost. Especially when then figure out that you are taking bees. They might even say that they are turning their back now, heading to the control car, and driving away. The cops do have some leeway and probably would not want to get involved. They do want to keep the peace in the neighborhood. Especially if you told that the bees were causing trouble with the kids and their mothers were getting scared. 

It would be a completely different case if you were _inside_ the house stealing cooper pipe.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

You only can only get "caught" if you are doing something wrong. Claiming abandoned property is not wrong.I think waste is wrong, though.

Walking onto an urban lot is not trespassing unless the owner has told not to enter or remain on the property. That could be done vocally or with a sign. 

If entering a lot were trespassing in and of itself, it would be illegal to knock on a door or ring a doorbell, as one would have to trespass to do it.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

All of the abandoned houses on my block have "No Trespassing" signs in the front window of the house. Not sure how that applies to the back yard, but I suspect it does. Anyway, I still think that it is a non-issue.

Has anyone thought of adverse possession? Just care for the bees for 7 years and they are yours.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Some of the posts on this thread seem to me to be way over-thought. If the bees belong to you they are yours to move. These bees do not belong to any of the above posters. They are not yours to take. Call the bank and explain how the bees are a potential "liabiliy" and a "safety" issue. 

All of you are welcome at my front door, but please do not let me find you wandering around in my back yard.


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

Nabber86 said:


> This thread has a lot of really bad assumptions.
> 
> 
> So is any of this justification for stealing? Heck no, it’s still stealing. But the system is broke, so screw ‘em and take the hives. It wouldn’t bother me in the least. If you have moral issues with this, then don’t take the hives.


Well said Nabber.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

3 - _"Animal control? Get real. They work with kitties and puppies. They are not going to touch bees. Even if they did, you are not going to work out a deal with them for you to retrieve the bees. The have absolutely no authority to do so. A city nuisance inspector may come out and spray/kill the hives, but again they have no authorization to let you take the hives. After all they are city workers with and are not going to take on any liability that jeopardizes their job."

_Around here, animal control and the Humane Society have a good working relationship. Animal control is not the same as the private pest control Co's that spray for ants and ****roaches. I am pretty sure the AC [animal control] and HS [Humane Societies] have a *protocol *in place by now to handle situations like this, similar to finding 100 cats in a house. A couple of bee hives in the back yard is not the same as a big fancy gas grill on the patio! [the absconded previous "owner" be ****ed]. With the neighbors getting concerned [a gas grill isn't going to fly up and land on or in their houses,.]. and the bees getting very active now that spring is here, sooner than later AC or the "nuisance inspector" is going to be involved and if the bees are destroyed, C10250 may regret not trying to do something.

Fortunately [or unfortunately depending on how C10250 thinks after reading some of these posts,.] this is something C10250 knows about and is a beekeeper. There aren't many that are going to "adopt" a couple of beehives.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

I'd bet the bank will PAY you for your removal services if you approached it the right way.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

First of all, the legal definition of abandoned property depends upon the local juristiction of the property. Typically is not abandoned property until the legal authority says its abandoned property. However, let's for a monent asuume that these hives legally abandoned property. If that is the case then to be legal you would have to follow the procedure (law) applicable for your locality to claim this property. Any action other than that prescribed by law is stealing. Its highly unlikely that any person off the street can just walk around claiming abandoned property without proper sanctions granted by legal authority. Welcome to civilized society folks. 







Beregondo said:


> You only can only get "caught" if you are doing something wrong. Claiming abandoned property is not wrong.I think waste is wrong, though.
> 
> Walking onto an urban lot is not trespassing unless the owner has told not to enter or remain on the property. That could be done vocally or with a sign.
> 
> If entering a lot were trespassing in and of itself, it would be illegal to knock on a door or ring a doorbell, as one would have to trespass to do it.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

*****UPDATE******UPDATE*******

I called the local police department and talked to an officer. He told me that the PD has no problem whatsoever with me taking the hives as long as the realtor is OK with it. Now I just need to discuss the situation with the realtor. I will keep you guys informed.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Good job. I'll bet they won't want anything to do with it, either.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

I just asked a friend of mine who is a retired Illinois State Police Captain this question. This is what he replied.

_Abandoned bee hives: bees in them & using the hives? is it a concern for the welfare of the bees? If so, go the route of the ag inspector [no recollection of any IL ag laws].

If not an issue for ag inspector, YOU have the opportunity to enter the property and look *as long as there isn't a "no trespassing" sign anywhere along the perimeter..... the obvious single place to post such a warning is by the front main entrance. If there is a sign there, noone may enter.

Bee hives are the property of the land-owner [bank, unknown buyer that might have taken possession yesterday, estate of person who owned/owns] and may not be removed without permission.

If there is a complaint of a criminal issue, potential crime or welfare check [chemicals dumped, poison out, illegal hunting, trespassers etc] cops may enter to investigate. If they find something, they may act if fresh pursuit, a welfare/health issue [of humans] or have to stop to call in/obtain a search warrant [look in the windows & see a pot grow]. If there is an ag issue & have no clue even IF it is illegal to abandon active bee hives or not, they call ag inspectors. 

If someone wants to remove the bee hives to get them for free, get the bees for free, it is called theft. If the bees will die without proper care, its an issue for ag inspector.

If there aren't any specific "bee hive abandonment" laws to follow, pretend that it's a foreclosed property with a 2008 John Deere 7530 parked on it. Barring any paperwork or title, it is the property of the last/current owner: the estate of last owner or the last owner or the bank/mortgage company or unknown to you, the person who electronically bought the property yesterday or is sitting inside the bank right now, writing a check for the property and 7530. Anyone going onto the property to remove some of it without *written permission is committing theft.

Cops will have a duty to protect the porperty of the owner - the courts & paperwork decide if that is the last owner, the estate of, the bank or the guy who bought it yesterday and plans to get out there in April. _

In short, according him, assuming you don't get a police officer that is very familiar with bee hive ag law, highly unlikely, he'd likely turn it over to ag department. So no, don't call the police. 

Also according to him taking possession for ANY reason without legal consent is theft, even if you're doing it out of the goodness of your heart to protect the bees.

As others have mentioned the best route seems to be calling the bank and if they own it seeing of you can get the bees...or offer to remove them for a fee. Gas is expensive these days.

~Matt


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## smoore (Feb 1, 2012)

Illinois has Apiary inspectors and laws governing bees. http://www.agr.state.il.us/programs/bees/inspectors.html. Call the local one its his job to deal with things like abandoned hives which are a Nuisance since the owner can not be contacted ((510 ILCS 20/2-1). The apiary inspector has the right to enter any property (510 ILCS 20/2-4) for the purposes of beekeeping. All in Illinois law: http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilc...terName=ANIMALS&ActName=Bees+and+Apiaries+Act.

It took longer to read all the bad advice and arguing over who owns the hives than to look that up.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

smoore said:


> It took longer to read all the bad advice and arguing over who owns the hives than to look that up.


Nice first post!

Welcome...


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*



jayoung21 said:


> I would contanct the bank and tell them for a nominal fee of $100 per hive you will provide your service to remove the "neusance" hive


I actually agree with this one. Seriously. Having them pay you to relocate the hives not only puts money in your pocket, but legitimizes your ownership of the hives.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

I agree, nice job smoore. I love it when a new comer shows us all up with silly things like....facts.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Oldbee said:


> Around here, animal control and the Humane Society have a good working relationship. Animal control is not the same as the private pest control Co's that spray for ants and ****roaches. I am pretty sure the AC [animal control] and HS [Humane Societies] have a *protocol *in place by now to handle situations like this, similar to finding 100 cats in a house.


The Humane Society has a *protocol* to deal with bees? Now that is funny. They care about kitties and puppies because they are cute and people have a big emotional response to pets. They dont have enough space to keep the animals that they collect so most of them end up getting killed. What the heck are they going to do with a bunch of bees? The HS isnt going to touch it.

Animal control? As in a City or County Department? I know a guy who works for animal control for a big city (Whichita). They are understaffed and overwhelmed with complaints. They keep animals for 30 days and if nobody claims them (and pays the fine to get them back) they are killed and sent straight to the incinerator. I think he told me it was something like 1500 dogs and cats a month. What the heck are they going to do with a bunch of bees? AC may do something if they have the time, but that would probably involve spraying the bees to kill them, as they will be viewed as a nuisance and no local residents are going to complain about killing a bunch of stinging bugs.


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## Vermillion (Feb 10, 2012)

Thank you for posting this update, c10250

I look forward to hearing how this is resolved. If there is a Realtor involved, it will make things easier for you, as it means a lot of the legal roadblocks have been cleared as far as you are concerned. He or she has already been tasked with making the home available for sale and disposing with property left behind by the owner and making repairs.

I am sure the Realtor will be very supportive of your hive removal efforts!

good luck. Interesting thread.



c10250 said:


> *****UPDATE******UPDATE*******
> 
> I called the local police department and talked to an officer. He told me that the PD has no problem whatsoever with me taking the hives as long as the realtor is OK with it. Now I just need to discuss the situation with the realtor. I will keep you guys informed.


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## Russ (Sep 9, 2001)

BeeKeepers have an opinion on about any subject!!!!!!!!!! Just ask one.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

c10250 said:


> *****UPDATE******UPDATE*******
> 
> I called the local police department and talked to an officer. He told me that the PD has no problem whatsoever with me taking the hives as long as the realtor is OK with it. Now I just need to discuss the situation with the realtor. I will keep you guys informed.


Well done.:thumbsup:


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Good job, my money is on you got yourself two hives once you talk to that realtor. Only hitch I might expect is if the time the realtor has to retain personal property has not passed yet. If it has they will very likely be happy to say good riddance to the hives.



c10250 said:


> *****UPDATE******UPDATE*******
> 
> I called the local police department and talked to an officer. He told me that the PD has no problem whatsoever with me taking the hives as long as the realtor is OK with it. Now I just need to discuss the situation with the realtor. I will keep you guys informed.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

millerwb said:


> I am glad that this person does not live in my state and offer this advice here. It could at the least get you a night in jail, at the worst, shot.


Actually miller, TX has VERY similar laws...I just got off the phone with TAIS yesterday about a slightly similar situation.
More importantly, however:
1. most states (including TX, but I'm not sure about IL) have "Abandoned Hive" laws/clauses in their state beekeeping law, that's the first thing I'd check, as it may make everything REALLY SIMPLE;
2. in most states (I know for sure IN, OH, GA, and TX) any personal property left on any premises after the legal end of an eviction/foreclosure automatically becomes property of the evicting/foreclosing body (the bank, in this instance). If the pipes being removed was considered illegal, than within 30 days of that incident, the hives became legal property of the bank (assuming IL laws are the same as all the states I've ever lived in). ... so if option #1 doesn't give you a definite answer about what should be done, contact the bank for option #2
3. having failed to reach a concrete solution (or answer) to the situation with above avenues, contact your state Apiary Inspection service. They're the final deciding body for anything to do with ownership of bees in the state, so whatever they say....GOES!

Now, can we all step back, take three deep breaths, and stop screaming at each other please? I have a splitting headache & my bees are getting nervous from all the screaming.:shhhh:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> That is the point, abandoned. Something that is abandoned can't be stolen. All you need is approval to enter the property and take the hives which you could get from law enforcement. The original owner still has the opportunity to reclaim his possessions but not without costs and the costs do not have to be less then the value of the property.


As I stated earlier, the abandoned hives belong to the landowner. While worlking Apiary Inspection, when we found hives which no one claimed ownership of, perhaps the original owner died or moved away, according to Ag&Mkts procedure the hives belonmged to the landowner.

Law enforcemewnt has no greounds what so ever to give you permission to remove something from someone elses property. Go ask them and report back to us Acebird.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> If you made an arrangement with the police they might accompany you.


"Gee, Mr. Desk Sargent. I know where there ar some bee hives that appear to be abandoned. Would you let me take them? Would you go along, please?" Yeah, right, I can see that happening.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

....thus my statement to check with the ILLINOIS state apiary inspectors if the laws were not abundantly clear.

Anywise, can we PLEASE start treating each other a little more civilly here; we are, after all, all here because we enjoy/want to enjoy keeping bees & helping each other out. Fighting doesn't help us accomplish either of those objectives. Please go back and re-read the forum rules if you disagree with this; we all agreed to be civil with each other when we signed up here, so LET's DO IT!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Who is being uncivil? Please point out the Posts you found uncivil.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

Answered via PM so as not to propagate any more negativity in this thread


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## Bee-tlejuice (Oct 2, 2007)

Good idea -- get the state/count bee inspector involved -- they'll back you up regarding the man-made beehives having to be registered, i.e. the beehives being required to have a readily contactable owner registered with the State, turning the hives into hot potatos from the bank/realtor's perspective. Hedge your bet though -- ask your coworker if he'd mind hosting a few bait hives in his backyard along the property line in case the abandoned hives swarm while the bureaucracy grinds along  .


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

What if you dont have state bee inspector (like Kansas)?


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

Interesting....
Let me do some research and get back to you on that one (prob. via PM since it doesn't directly relate to this thread)


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

_>"They are understaffed and overwhelmed with complaints."
>"AC may do something if they have the time."
>"What if you dont have state bee inspector (like Kansas)? "

_Last I heared, there was still a lot of unemployment around the country; maybe not in Kansas? 

RE: Humane Society. Now I know how [but not why] people get misquoted and their statements can so easily be taken out of context to create confusion, or present a point view that is false. 

I did not say that the HS. had anything to do with honey bees. I tried to make an analogy between these hives and finding 50 cats, dogs, etc. in an empty [abandoned?] house. I know the bees are probably not starving or dieing of thirst [or the neighbors are complaining that the hives reek from excrement] but this situation is somewhat similar; especially since 6 months [according to info] has past since they have been given any attention.

Around here, [pop. 233,000] if it was known that over 10,000 cats, dogs or other pets were being euthanzed a year, there would be an uproar of negative public opinion directed at the Humane Society. Not that I don't agree it is an expense and problem for some communities. Fortunately we have a vet school nearby and the advanced students volunteer for spay/neuter clinics.

One other thought: Since more hobby beekeepers are advocating to be allowed to have bees in their urban backyards, maybe it should be one of the regulations and responsibility for the beekeeper to have a plan [with the city permitting process?] for the bees to be taken care of or removed, under ANY unforeseen circumstances.

Post #85: >The police do not care > the bank does not care. > Animal control? Get real. >Contact the home owner? What a complete joke! [the] "shady looking crew in a shady looking truck"
>In my experience, this is how the process has worked time and time again it my neck of the woods.

That was so negative and depressing. I'll have to remember not to visit Kansas, unless I have the urge to,..chase tornadoes,..

The End.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Oldbee said:


> _>_I did not say that the HS. had anything to do with honey bees. I tried to make an analogy between these hives and finding 50 cats, dogs, etc. in an empty [abandoned?] house. I know the bees are probably not starving or dieing of thirst [or the neighbors are complaining that the hives reek from excrement] but this situation is somewhat similar; especially since 6 months [according to info] has past since they have been given any attention.


Sorry when I here about 50 cats, I tend to get agitated. The lady that was evicted from the house next door was a "Cat Lady" - like the kind of person you see of that TV show American Hoarders. I counted as many as 16 cats at a time in her front yard, while she was living there. Many more were living inside the house. None of the cats were fixed. When she left the house, she left the garage open about a foot (actually it had been open for years because she couldnt afforad to fix it). Although she did have enough money to buy 50-pound bags of food and leave them open on the floor of the garage. You can imagine what that did to the cat population (and the raccons and other vermin). The lawn went un-mowed for 4 years (even during the time she lived there) so there was plenty of cover for the animals to hide. I did sneak inside the house one time (back door was swinging in the wind and eventually fell off) and found cat poo everywhere including the bathroom tubs which she apparently used for litter boxes. I am talking poo on the counter tops, walls and even the ceiling (Lord knows for it got there). We called the sheriff, county animal control, local Humane Society many times over the course of several years. They did absolutley nothing. So you can imagine why I have a really bad attitude about abandoned houses. 

(Incidently I did learn a few things during the ordeal: That antifreeze thing is an urban myth, it doesnt do anything. Cats breed so fast that after a certain point, you cannot keep up with even a high powered pellet gun).


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## genie (Jun 25, 2011)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

OK fellows enough is enough. Of course it's stealing when you take something that's not yours. You can rationalize all you want but stealing os stealing. If the bank holds the mortgage and the hives were left with property, they become the responsible parties of the hives. ask first.:no:


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Oldbee said:


> _>"_Around here, [pop. 233,000] if it was known that over 10,000 cats, dogs or other pets were being euthanzed a year, there would be an uproar of negative public opinion directed at the Humane Society. Not that I don't agree it is an expense and problem for some communities. Fortunately we have a vet school nearby and the advanced students volunteer for spay/neuter clinics.


There would be an uproar if the people knew. I was appalled when I heared the amount that the City was killing each month, but they dont advertise it. The simple fact is the City doesnt have the money to keep 1,500 cats and dogs that they collect_ every month_. Where would they put them? The Humane Society doesnt have anywhere to put them either. From the Humane Society's own website "Four million cats and dogs—about one every eight seconds—are *put down* in U.S. shelters each year". Of course the HS doesnt do the actual dirty work. Also, I always laugh when I hear an advertisement for our local shelter (where we have rescued 2 dogs and 2 cats so far). They say that they are a "no-kill" shelter. Of course they are beacause they send the animals somewhere else to get killed. My daughter voluntered there one summer and said that they cull the cute ones in hope they may get adopted. The other 99%, the ugly ones, get to go to doggy heaven.


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## rodneyk915 (Apr 10, 2012)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

I'm still waiting for bees so I'm not really a beekeeper yet but I still have an opinion  Illinois has a judicial foreclosure system so you should check with the courts to see what stage the foreclosure is at. The lender must file with the courts and the courts have to issue a foreclosure judgement and order of sale. The owner then has a period of time to bring the account up to date. After this time period there is a foreclosure sale and after the sale the previous owner still has a 30 day right of redemption in which he can still take possession of the house if he has the money to pay all of the debt. I say all this just to point out that although he may appear to be (and probably is) completely out of the picture, he may still have rights to the property and everything there, including the hives. The realtor, in my opinion, doesn't have any legal right to tell you what you can and can't take from the property as long as the owner still has rights to reclaim the property. Also, who's to say the guy wouldn't show up and claim he had X number of bees worth X amount of dollars and wants to sue you for his lost bees? I understand the concern and you can do what you want but I wouldn't touch them. Hope it all works out well.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

If it was me I would take them, assume its stealing and do whatever I need to do to not get caught. I would probably come up with some clever way to take the bee's and leave the equipment, let the bank try and figure that out.

I have no tolerance for most laws concerning animals. They are not written to be humane or just but rather to serve whoever has the money and power in your state.

This attitude will probably get me shot (again) someday but I would rather get shot doing something I feel is right rather than live against my principles.

But thats just me. It shouldn't be taken as advice...perhaps more like a cautionary tale.

I am more likely to assume that something is illegal and do it anyway than to do the research and find out the truth. Oddly enough this attitude hasn't earned me a single criminal conviction yet so either I'm really good at getting away with things or so paranoid that all my supposed crimes where actually perfectly legal in the first place and nobody cared what I was doing.


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## mrqb (Jul 17, 2011)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

i would instruct your coworker how to screen the front,and place a strap around hive under the cover of darkness,then move them to your house. or call the city give them your name and number ,tell them u do bee removal and swarm capture,then have your coworker call city next day and complain about bees. everything works if u let it.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE

OK, so I've been waiting a while to post so that things cool down a bit 

The conclusion to the story is that my co-worker asked around and found a neighbor who knew the contact information of the couple that were forclosed upon. I definitely wanted to at least try to have someone contact them before I just took them. 

The neighbor contacted them and told them about the hives being "looked at", with some neighbors wanting them out, and others more than willing to help. They asked that we give them the week to figure out if they were going to take them or not. They said that if they were there on Monday, I could take them. 

Anyway, they contacted the realestate agent and took them back to their new home over the weekend. So no hives for me.

Ken


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

Well Ken, after all the controversy, flames etc, you did the right thing. That's the most important part plus shows your intentions were honorable the whole time.

I'm also pleased for the folks who were foreclosed on. Sometimes life throws a curved ball at us and being foreclosed must be a nightmarish experience. They have suffered enough and I am glad they have found a new home for their bees.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

What I want to know is where is everyone that thought there was no chance that the owner, bank, real estate agent, police or anyone else cared what happened to these hives. So much for psychic abilities. My hat is off to you for doing this right. Sadly this entire thread has revealed things to me about beekeepers in general that has left a permanent distaste in my mouth. I will not soon forget the general nature of the crowd I am dealing with. All they need to be crooks is a bit of twisted justification. I have a house full of drug dealers up the street with the same set of morals.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

Ya could have just said they were your hives that you were picking up after the house was foreclosed on. What's a little lie among thieves.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

Ken, you did the right thing and should have no trouble sleeping because of this experience...you will probably even sleep better. You're a stand-up guy in my book.

Best wishes,
Ed


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

I haven't read through all 7 pages, so maybe this has already been mentioned:

Upon foreclosure the bank owns the real property that secured the foreclosed loan, i.e., the land and house of the foreclosed property, and things "attached" to the land like the landscaping, sidewalks, fences, permamently mounted outdoor light fixtures, etc. However, the bank does not own the personal property of the now former home-owner since personal property is typically never used to secure a loan on real property and is not "attached" to the land. Thus, based upon the foreclosure alone, the bank does not own the former owner's refrigerator, washing machine, TV, car, clothes, etc., including the beehives. (although, the bank may eventually end up owning any personal property left on the land for a certain period of time by the previous owner, that property becoming legally abandoned by the former owner after the prescribed time period).

Additionally, taking possession of actually abandoned personal property is perfectly legal to do. In other words, abandoned property can not be stolen because the original owner no longer owns it due to having abandoned it. If the bee hives do indeed fit the definition of "abandoned", then anyone can legally take them for their own and become the new legal owner. 

If the hives are actually abandoned it appears the only crime committed by taking the hives would be a trespass on the foreclosed land now owned by the bank. The bank is in the buisness of buying and selling real estate, not personal property especially not something as unique as bee hives, and wants nothing to do with the hives. Further, the bank won't want the bees on the property since they will interfere with the eventual sale of the property by scaring away most prospective buyers. Prosecution for trespass under these circumstances seems highly unlikely.

Property law is very detailed about situations like this and does not neccessarily always follow common sense. Since this is a civil not a criminal matter, a LEO's opinion on ownership of the beehives is next to worthless since they don't have training on, and don't deal with non-criminal matters. Anyone not trained in that state's property laws making well-meaning, but legally unsupported proclamations on what to do based on their gut feelings of right and wrong, or what happened to their brother-in-law living two states to the west when he lost his house last year, etc., is probably wrong as well.

That's not to say notifying the local LEO you are removing "dangerous" abandoned hives at the request of neighbors to safely hold them for the owners pick-up won't work just fine. 

JMHO


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

At this property, the bank will clean up and get rid of the trash. However in this case here, the bees by some might be deemed as a problem and or trash. One man's trash is another's treasure, right? That's up to the bank to decide, no one else. The property and anything left behind by the prior owner, when he vacated the property, is now bank owned and subject to a lien sale by the bank. If the bees are registered and later found at someone else's house, you could be charges with theft, if you don't have a bill of sale to accompany them. A bill of sale would have been aquired at the lien sale or the bank. If they are not branded/registered, they are up for grabs, but at the lien sale or at the banks discretion. In this case, let's say they are registered to the owner, and the owner went and got them, if they didn't have permission to removed the items from the bank owned property they have tresspassed and stolen from the property. Even though they are registered and belong to the person, that's for the bank to decided what they want to do with them. The bank lost money and wants to try and recoup some it, hence the lien sale. If the neighbor's would have contacted the bank and claim that the unattended hives were a nuisance, and the OP (original poster) would have contacted the bank as well offering to remove the hives, the bank may have given the OP the go ahead to remove the hives, however I would have asked the bank for some sort of written permission/bill of sale to go with the hives.

At least in California, other states may have different laws.


C2


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

OK guys, I think it's a little late for legal(ish) advice on this one...the matter has already been finally resolved. And quite admirably by the OP, I might add. I think all that's left to do now is to congratulate him for being such a "Stand up" person & going the extra mile to find a way to contact the hives' original owners.
...and take some of the comments from beeks who would've just "taken the hives and run" as a warning to padlock your hives to something not easily removed!


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

Respectfully, other people will eventually face the same situation, and thus having a discussion for them to find when doing a search on the subject will be helpful. Consequently, even though the OP has resolved the matter, it is not too late to add a (hopefully well-reasoned) response to the discussion.

JMHO.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*



Daniel Y said:


> general nature of the crowd I am dealing with.


Daniel,

Trace back and see that I was of the same basic opinion as you. However, despite this painful thread, every beekeeper I've met in person has been an exceptional person - far above the norm found in the general population. Keep the faith! 

I still believe that beekeepers are good people and will continue to trust them in all manners until proven otherwise.


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## martinvermillion64 (Mar 22, 2012)

*Re: Opinions Appreciated - Is the stealing???*

A person who will take one thing whatever it may be will take anything. The one about the lie or whatever amoung friends will more than likely be taking your weedeater while you are in church on Sunday.My opinion only others will think different.I see most on this site are good honest folks.


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