# Overwintering 5 frame Nuc's Question



## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

Ok, long and short of it is how do you get 5 frames of bees through a winter? I'm in going into my 3rd winter and am planning my next year. Further out, I'd like to start producing nucs and am wondering how one gets these 5 frames through a winter without them starving pr freezing to death. I am right on the line of USDA zone 6B and 7, we have about 3-1/2 months of real cold (freezing at night, maybe days too) and even with my 10 frame doubles, local bees I worry.


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## Johnnymms (Feb 7, 2020)

I have no experience trying it myself but I have seen other well known bee keepers use a double screen board to over winter nucs above a strong colony. The heat generated by the large colony raises up to help out the small ones. I've seen two nucs placed side by side on top of a 10 frame deep. I'm sure others will have more advice. Good luck!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Johnnymms said:


> I have no experience trying it myself but I have seen other well known bee keepers use a double screen board to over winter nucs above a strong colony. The heat generated by the large colony raises up to help out the small ones. I've seen two nucs placed side by side on top of a 10 frame deep. I'm sure others will have more advice. Good luck!


Have also heard that some folks have had problems with the top colony getting all the moisture too. Probably depends a lot on insulation etc. Have also read that it would be better to use a solid divider board like an inner cover between the two colonies. It transfers a lot of the heat but not the moisture that a double screen board would.

Some wintering experience from Pedersen Apiaries in Saskatchewan, Can. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...apiaries.ca/&usg=AOvVaw0e7DUOixjBQivdGMLbQc6K


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

Easy,overwinter as 5 over 5,wrap 2 side by side and split in the spring.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The four frame nucs that can be stacked side by side on standard 10 frame bottoms, can even be supered with standard boxes, covers, queen Xcluders etc. Michael Palmer made them popular. They winter well four over four and no worry about stability. Easy to wrap for winter.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

good crop of winter bees, dead mites, good nutrition, 4-4.5 frames of feed (they need some cluster space)

for me 5 f has been a little hit or miss some times great.. some times not so good (usually queen castle frames that didn't have enough time to stabilize and raise good crop of winter bees after last catch and combine) I will say I have seen as small (exception not the rule) as 3 top bar combs (+ 1 dry comb an blank bar) make it... they got robbed out in the spring when I fed them, but they made the winter.
very good most years (75%) survival on 7f+ ie 8f single with a frame feeder, 4 over 4 side by side, 5 over 5, 10f single

here is a good place to start


https://projects.sare.org/wp-content/uploads/Milbrath_SustainableFallNucs_Final.pdf




while we think "small" won't work... I have seen some amazing stuff
there is guy in Finland overwintering foam mini nucs !! (cellared, feeder on top)
and Elizabeth Huxter with Kettle Valley Queens used to (they now sell all the queens do to the industry shift to fall requeeening) over winter queens in 4 way shallow mateing nucs !!!


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

Move south.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

msl said:


> here is a good place to start
> https://projects.sare.org/wp-content/uploads/Milbrath_SustainableFallNucs_Final.pdf


Love this one: "Beekeeping is no longer a money sink – spouses are happier, and funds can go towards a fishing boat." What's not to love?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

yep....
Issue is there is no $$ in teaching people generative apiary practices (such as pulling a nuc per hive in your 1st year)

there is a lot of $$ in consumption.. buying a new package every other year per hive you matain, etc.


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

gone2seed said:


> Move south.


All good down south until the other season hits-i hate 90% humidity/95F weather. I can always add layers of cloths (and insulate my hives) but when I remove that last layer, the neighbors call the cops.



crofter said:


> The four frame nucs that can be stacked side by side on standard 10 frame bottoms, can even be supered with standard boxes, covers, queen Xcluders etc. Michael Palmer made them popular. They winter well four over four and no worry about stability. Easy to wrap for winter.


is there an issue with workers attacking the other queens? how are the nuc's joined-screen boards or QE's? I'm missing something or overthinking-does Palmer have a video on that?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The two colonies are separated all the way up to the queen excluder. The honey super above that is open to the bees of both hives and they work to gether but return to their own side of the duplex apparently. If some get mixed up I guess they keep a low profile. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. One of the suggestions when setting up is to have the two queens fairly well matched as to age and breed type. If you were just wintering them you would keep them separate all the way up. Notice how little physical separation there is at the landing board.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

LarryBud said:


> is there an issue with workers attacking the other queens?


as will all things beekeeping stock an techniques play a roll, but in general people are quite successful with muti queen hives...many respected beekeeper(mike palmer, brother adam) has talked about pulling the old queen and droping a fresh laying queen right out of a mateing nuc and things going well... they seem to take to a laying queen (of the same gentnics) well.. i
here is 6 double deeps supered in common Australia









Ian's three 6 frame nucs suppered in common 





and if you look at my profile pic... thats two 5 frame nucs supered in common


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

LarryBud said:


> I can always add layers of cloths (and insulate my hives) but when I remove that last layer, the neighbors call the cops.


Move to Oregon it's legal to tend your garden au natural!


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

JustBees said:


> Move to Oregon it's legal to tend your garden au natural!


At my age, it may be legal but surely its unpleasant! (For the viewers)


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## Zippy69 (Sep 5, 2021)

Ive done the styrofoam nucs, really hit or miss. I’m a little north of you and I may be a little cooler but I find that no matter how great they look it’s roll the dice come Feb-March.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

I'm in 6a. Nucs are my preferred method of wintering. A strong 5f nuc with a feeder shim and sugar on top for insurance will explode in spring. My 5's did better than full sized hives. I think it is because they are more compact and always in contact with food.

This year by necessity I'm trying many more 4f nucs than I planned. They are in single story resource hives. I condensed them down before winter because our fall flow was non existent. Same principle of sugar for insurance on top.

I'll know in Feb how well it worked. There is a beek from Quebec in another group I frequent that uses stand-alone 4f nucs for winter.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

Steve in PA said:


> I think it is because they are more compact and always in contact with food.


That's what I see with my 7 frame hives. The cluster is in the lowest box and food is directly above them. 
I've wintered successfully 5x5x5 and 4x4x4 colonies, and every spring I tell myself that this upcoming winter I will try wintering in single 5f. Never done it. But I know of a few locally whp winter in single nuc boxes. The use Carni type bees though, not Italians, fwiw.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Frank, I have equalized by supering together. If the colonies are not fairly identical I put newspaper on the small one when the big one needs a super, queen excluder on newspaper. When I pull boxes the colonies are equal. (Careful, often they put all the honey above qx so make sure they don't starve when you pull....)


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

LarryBud said:


> Ok, long and short of it is how do you get 5 frames of bees through a winter? I'm in going into my 3rd winter and am planning my next year. Further out, I'd like to start producing nucs and am wondering how one gets these 5 frames through a winter without them starving pr freezing to death. I am right on the line of USDA zone 6B and 7, we have about 3-1/2 months of real cold (freezing at night, maybe days too) and even with my 10 frame doubles, local bees I worry.


I think you are over-thinking this. Your winters sound fairly warm and mild. I typically see temps at zero or below for a week or more straight in January, and continuously below freezing for a month or longer, with only occasional days above freezing for several months. 

A single, stand-alone, 5-frame nuc with insulation on top only, has no problem surviving my climate, as long as they have a block of sugar on top. Your warm winters should be no issue at all, though they probably go through more food, being more active all winter.

My nucs have 1-inch walls and solid attached bottom boards. No insulation on the sides but deep insulation on top.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

I'm going to shamelessly plug a FB group that I belong to. It's all about beekeeping exclusively in nucs. Lots of experimenting and sharing what works and doesn't work. It's well worth the price of admission just to read what is going on. I hate FB and only maintain on there for groups like that. 









Nucleus Colony Beekeeping | Facebook


This group is for beekeepers who employ nucleus colony beekeeping in their beekeeping strategy. We will NOT define how you should employ nucleus colonies but rather seek to learn means and methods...




www.facebook.com


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Steve in PA said:


> I'm going to shamelessly plug a FB group that I belong to. It's all about beekeeping exclusively in nucs..........


It works.

*6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator*








6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator


Nothing but 6-frame boxes/medum-size frame (shallow Dadants, technically). (I guess, he still uses some deeps in the very bottom box - in that case they winter in a single Dadant 6-frame box + an empty super below optionally). Another version of pure by-the-box approach. No frame-by-frame...




www.beesource.com


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

GregV said:


> *6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator*


You and I have discussed 6f before and I've run some for the last 3 summers. They are very productive however inspecting and treating them is much more difficult than the resource hive arrangement. That's why I probably won't be using them next year.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Steve in PA said:


> You and I have discussed 6f before and I've run some for the last 3 summers. They are very productive however inspecting and treating them is much more difficult than the resource hive arrangement. That's why I probably won't be using them next year.


Steve, can you clarify:
1) what is the resource hive arrangement
2) inspecting them is much more difficult
3) treating them is much more difficult
Thanks


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

GregV said:


> Steve, can you clarify:
> 1) what is the resource hive arrangement
> 2) inspecting them is much more difficult
> 3) treating them is much more difficult
> Thanks


1) Aka Palmer Nucs

2&3) Having 3 6f nucs under 2 10f supers makes it 1-1/2 nuc exposed by lifting a super rather than 1:1. Doing anything with the middle box turns into a huge pain in the butt. And that is before taking into account angry bees from the 2 boxes that are disturbed plus worries about queens crossing over while things are opened up.

Then, when everyone is good and angry, you put it back together to do the other side, except the middle box is already ballistic.

With the resource hive I can open a side, do quick inspection, and OA dribble in roughly 4 minutes if supers arent on. Just about the time one side starts to get angry I'm already closing it up and moving to the other side.

10's over 6's are extremely productive. I harvested 97 lb off my 1st experimental hive. I just find them not to my liking. The good thing is that the 6f and 10f gear can be repurposed. With 8f gear you are really stuck.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Steve in PA said:


> 2&3) Having 3 6f nucs under 2 10f supers makes it 1-1/2 nuc exposed by lifting a super rather than 1:1. Doing anything with the middle box turns into a huge pain in the butt. And that is before taking into account angry bees from the 2 boxes that are disturbed plus worries about queens crossing over while things are opened up.


OK; thanks.

I don't envision doing the "3 under 2" type model.
So what you describe is really a function of "3 under 2" model, NOT inherently feature of a 6f equipment. 

And so 6f equipment is not at fault (but you sound like it is at fault).
6f is no different from 10f in that regard and actually easier to manipulate.

If anything, I envision something like this (no equipment intermixing).


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Correct, but since 6f boxes arent widely available you have to custom make or buy them. Then, is the improvement over 5f gear worth the price & expense? I have both and I would say no.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Steve in PA said:


> Correct, but since 6f boxes arent widely available you have to custom make or buy them. Then, is the improvement over 5f gear worth the price & expense? I have both and I would say no.


Yep - custom make. No problem.
Unsure - worth the price & expense? Depends on your context.

I find 5f boxes rather sub-optimal
They are too small and yet take time/material to make very similar to 6f.
They don't even make good swarm traps (to me that is a requirement - any box I have should be a good swarm trap). So that one usage wasted right there.

I feel the whole point of 5f existence because they came out of that "standard" 10f cut in half.
Not that they make any good sense otherwise.

In my view the optimal box should be large enough for any general usage, but yet NOT too large so to create problems on my joints and the back (when loaded).
So that lands somewhere in 6f-7f sizing.

Why even bother?
I still have this box of new, extra deep Lang frames (about 50) that I hate sitting about unused.


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

From what I'm reading I've decided, subject to a better idea, to do single 5's from late summer resource frames and an open mated queen, hopefully raise here from my stock. I'm thinking about building out a shallow sized 5frame sized box partially, say half #8 hardware cloth and half wood bottom with a hole for a mason jar feeder. Then pack the whole top box with wood shaving as a quit box and insulate the exterior surfaces with rigid foam board in groups of 3 or 4 nucs


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

LarryBud said:


> From what I'm reading I've decided, subject to a better idea, to do single 5's from late summer resource frames and an open mated queen, hopefully raise here from my stock. I'm thinking about building out a shallow sized 5frame sized box partially, say half #8 hardware cloth and half wood bottom with a hole for a mason jar feeder. Then pack the whole top box with wood shaving as a quit box and insulate the exterior surfaces with rigid foam board in groups of 3 or 4 nucs


In the peak of your swarm season place a swarm cell (or graft) in a 5 frame nuc box with brood, honey, pollen and 5 frames of foundation above next to the mother hive. Before the new queen has capped brood and added brood has emerged do an OAV treatment. If needed add a shake of young bees or brood as the nuc grows. By fall you'll have a strong young 5 over 5 colony that will have no problem overwintering. No wood shavings, quilt boxes, or grouping necessary. Just a good wind block.


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