# CCD thoughts



## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Assume that it is 4 things. Migration, Mites, polluted comb and nosema. If you remove one of these and the bees go back to where they were--then the removed item will be considered the "cause." 4 investigators could each remove a different item and each "prove" that they had found the problem. The answer may be unknowable in the usual sense. I have to stop now...I'm giving myself an anxiety attack.

Dickm


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Suppose the answer is just the sum total of stresses applied to the hive. Hypotheticly you could have just four stresses needed and twenty or thirty active stresses occuring in the population. If this were the case then using the 4 stress experiment and getting results by removing one would lead to a false answer because it would only apply to colonies in which other critical stress factors were absent. This is the problem with controled experimentation, all variables need to be considered and as many as possable removed, resulting in tunnel vision.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I think the posts before me pretty accurately describe my thoughts for the most part. I am confident, like every bane in the past, at some point I will suffer this too. I don't believe it is a new thing, I don't think there is any magic bullet to prevent it outside employing the exceptional beekeeping practices which have become necessary for survival over the past decade or so.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

BjornBee said:


> Next Wedneday, a formal congressional hearing will take place. The beekeeping industry is seeking funding on levels never even imagined before the CCD problems took hold. I could make comments on "follow the money", and "its all politics", etc. I feel that the industry is in need of help and if support can be found, I only hope that its for a "bigger bang" than what we have recieved prior to this from the industry.
> 
> I see no quick solution or final study being published anytime soon. No one is going to shoot the golden goose at this point. There is money to be had, research to be funded, and programs to continue. I know its a REAL problem we are having. There are those who have lost alot. I don't want to minimize that. But if anyone is looking for a smoking gun, let alone one produced anytime soon, it will not be coming.


Did you get any indication on who is going to be asking for the money or where it might be headed? Or timing?


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Looks like the hearings are now rescheduled for Thursday, 3/29/07

There MAY be audio broadcast over the net, but it seems that it
will not be webcast with video, nor will CSPAN carry the hearing
on TV.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Some well though out points were made here on this thread.

I hate to see the bee industry looking for hand-outs every time something doesn't go right.

I feel for those who have losses, but this is nothing new.

In the abj oct ( pg. 843) issue, I showed pictures of me feeding pollen in the third week of August, this was not normal in CA. Beekeepers that were paying attendtion to there hives did just fine this winter.

We need to get back to being responsible for our own actions or lack of.

Keith


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I agree with your thoughts Keith on having to be responsible for our actions or lack of. I don't think the industry has had their hand out every time something has gone wrong nor should it. That being said managed colony counts have been decreasing since the end of WW II and beekeeper numbers are on the decline. These numbers speak for themselves.

Jean-Marc


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Allocation of a little more money for _*research*_ is not
a "hand out".

If you look at federal funding for the various bee labs, the funding has
been "flat", no increase, not even for inflation. So, the labs have been
caught in a "death spiral", where paying decent raises to researchers
and the rising costs "taxed" upon them for things like "rent" and "janitorial
services" to the USDA eat up the budgets to the point where they simply
have no money to do actual research. All that talent, and no budget
for any serious work.

No one expects a government "hand out" to beekeepers, that would be a
very surprising outcome.

But who would object to the tiny drop of USDA's budget allocated to
pollination becoming a slightly larger tiny drop?

Back in 2002, when the USDA "forgot" to fund the Bee Labs, I ran
the numbers and found out that the total cost of all bee-related
items was something like 0.005% of the USDA budget.

I'm not going to feel even a little bit guilty if the press coverage of
CCD results in congress deciding to increase funding for research,
as they have not even given "cost of living" increases to the Labs,
and it should be clear to all that these guys are spending money to
look at CCD that was not in the budget, possibly taking money away
from planned work that needs to be done.


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## florida pollinator (Jul 31, 2006)

How many hand outs did I miss??? I was'nt aware we got any of late , but we are such a large and well organized group.
I am glad Keith has identified the source of my losses and my friends around here , lack of responsible beekeeping.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Boy, I see I struck a nerve here, GOOD.

Jim, you get back 20 cents for every dollar spent when our goverment is involved.

This months Bee Culture page 63 PROJECT APIS M.
Look, read and learn.

Florida keeper, you don't think there are hand outs for keepers??? FSA office NAP & DISASTER, HELLO anybody home!!!

Keith


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Beekeepers that were paying attendtion to there hives did just fine this winter.
> Keith


This is far from accurate. Where is there a correlation on amount of attention given versus CCD (or whatever you want to call it)? I know of a couple of cases where the beeks were in their colonies weekly trying to fix whatever was causing the problems, to no avail. Perhaps a certain * TYPE* of attention might make a difference but it takes RESEARCH to figure out what types. Blanket statements blaming the victim might make some feel superior, but this only works until it happens to them.

Jim absolutely nails this one. Honeybee research is underfunded, especially when taking the importance of the honeybee to agriculture into consideration. Perhaps the best thing to come out of all the media attention is a renewed committment to our beelabs.
Sheri


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

dickm sezs:
4 investigators could each remove a different item and each "prove" that they had found the problem. 

and then:
The answer may be unknowable in the usual sense.


tecumeh replies:
well if they were rigorous scientist they never prove anything... the idea in regards to hypothesis testing is to disprove the null hypothesis. which is not the point really... what should be the goal of an organized scientific effort is to determine different components (and significance where possible) of the syndrone.

unknowable only if you still insist on one cause.

jim fischer adds:
All that talent, and no budget for any serious work.

tecumseh replies:
exactly... sounds like how research is done here... nice building but no money to actually do the science.

this entire episode sure does suggest that the infrastructure for confronting problems is experiencing serious problems.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

mr jarrett adds:
Jim, you get back 20 cents for every dollar spent when our goverment is involved.

tecumseh replies:
now what does that mean??? or are you simply suggesting the research pays no dividends?

johnk and sheri adds:
Perhaps a certain TYPE of attention might make a difference but it takes RESEARCH to figure out what types. Blanket statements blaming the victim might make some feel superior, but this only works until it happens to them.

tecumseh adds:
I would be highly surprised if certain cultural practices (why the suggestion about the return to terramycin?) were not part of the problem and part of the solution.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

No one in Oregon has suffered from CCD that I am aware of, although we show up on the map of affected states. (???)
That said, I have to agree strongly with Mr. Jarrett on one point. 
We suffered a bit of a drought out here last fall and those that really cared for their bees wintered well.
I poured the light syrup and buried them in pollen patties in August last year.
This coincided with fall meds which I believe is a good combination. 
It was a real brown-out in terms of nectar at that time. 
We pull our honey supers earlier than most to bulk up for winter.
Our bees went to California looking better than they have ever looked that early in the year.
Also, they wintered HEAVY with feed.
I can't split them fast enough!
On the other hand, there are some that routinley pull honey in mid to late Sept and, SHEZAM!! Dere aint no stores and looky at all of them friggin mites!!!
......
I am totally in Mr. Jim Fischer's camp in regards to (among other things) funding for research.
Maybe it takes a disaster to wake people up to the value of our bees.
I'm for grabbing every cent for the bee labs that we can shake loose.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Harry,

Your signature quote 
"If you can't explain it you're not qualified to defend it"

I think the same about CCD.

I think you guys in Oregon had the same weather that we had in CA last year, the worst flows in forty years.

I think nutrition, both mites, nosema, and stress due to wether conditions and mites are the REAL cause.

This, I feel strongly, is 90% of the problem of this so called CCD. 

I wish the CCD camp would call it what it is.

The keepers that did winter well had a good program for their area.

Some keepers in my area didn't winter well, I asked them what their fall program was, One pound patty, store brought & two gallons of corn syrup.

Gee, I wonder why their bees didnt winter well!

Here's what I did, Aug on, Twenty pounds pollen sub, 5 gals of straight surcose with Fumagillin-B . Mites treatments, month of july- Nov. Couldn't make the CA state convention becuase of this, BUT some that are crying CCD made a week stay in Tahoe AND the AHPA convention! IMAGIN THAT.

Keith


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Keith, we are all glad to hear that your hives are doing well, but
your self-congratulatory tone is both premature and 100% fact-free.

You sound like the guy in the old joke who banged pans together
to keep the tigers away from a small Midwestern town - when told
that there are no tigers in North America, he says "Well, this 
certainly _*IS *_working well, isn't it?"

We don't know that "poor management practices" have anything to
do with CCD, and given the wide range of large and well-run operations
affected by CCD, it is presumptuous in the extreme to make any 
claims that you:

a) Know the root causes ('cause you clearly don't) 
b) Have an approach that prevents/avoids the problem

Many of us have no AHB, no foulbrood, no detectable nosema,
no chalkbrood worth treating, and so on. This does not say that
we have stumbled upon tactics that _prevent _these problems, it
merely indicates that we have bees that have not been exposed 
to these problems. Not yet.

Your comments are irresponsible, misinformed, self-aggrandizement
that add nothing to the group's understanding of the actual problem.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Given the reports of hives dying full of honey and brood, it seems strange to attribute CCD resistance to feeding pollen substitute and sugar water.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Jim, How do you know his (Kieth) bees were not exposed? What is it exactly that you think they were not exposed too? You say nobody has a clue, then suggest that his bees were not "exposed". Exposed to what? Please explain.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Jims writes,

"Banged pans together"

Gee Jim, this sounds like the CCD camp, does'nt it???

Jim thinks self-congratulatory on my part.

I am only explaining what's working in my and other operations, far more than the CCD camp is doing.

Keith


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Jim, How do you know his (Kieth) bees were not exposed? 

He has seen no symptoms, he has not had his hives near any hives
that have shown symptoms, and the working group reports that
the problem seems to spread between hives with ease (weird,
given the lack of robbing, don'tcha think?)

Therefore, it is more than reasonable to conclude that Keith's hives
simply have not been exposed to whatever this is. People looking
at it at close range, people with experience in looking at bee diseases,
keep saying that this "looks like a pathogen".

> I am only explaining what's working in my and other operations, far 
> more than the CCD camp is doing.

I'm not sure if you are being critical of the beekeepers who have lost
the bulk of their hives, or the team working to find the problem's cause.

The beekeepers who have been hit by this problem can be excused for
not sitting down and writing about their experience for your entertainment,
as they might have better things to do right now, like re-negotiate with
the bank, rustle up some replacement hives, and deal with the massive
inventory of dead-out woodenware in an attempt to at least salvage their
drawn comb (assuming that they can reuse it, which also seems to still
be an unanswered question).

The team working on the problem can also be excused for no providing 
more updates for your education and entertainment. They are kinda
busy. Jerry B. has been posting to Bee-L from time to time, and this
is about the best we can expect in the way of "updates from the field".

There were beekeepers who blamed the problem on poor management
practices in loud and insulting tones weeks ago, only to later find that 
their hives were also collapsing in large numbers. 

Talk about instant Karma, eh?

We don't know yet.
No one knows for sure.
Speculation is fine, but let's not blame the beekeepers who are now
staring bankruptcy in the face. They've got enough problems right
now, and don't need more.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Jim,
In your answer to Bjorn, you thought Keith's bees were not expose to CCD.
In my recent post, I said others around me were crying from CCD. Two keepers had so called losses of CCD, and were around me this summer.



Keith


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Sorry to take off topic, and in between an argument.

Just a quick question that has been on my mind.

Has there been any evidence towards an aspergillus fungal infection in the CCD effected hives? I believe its known as stone brood, it is something that I have never encountered as far as I know of. But its symptoms seem to represent much of the common symptoms of CCD,.?


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

>>>Has there been any evidence towards an aspergillus fungal infection in the CCD effected hives? I believe its known as stone brood, <<<

Dennis van Englesdorp has been hot on the trail of this. It turns out that the stuff is everywhere. He thought that a mutated strain could be the cause because it's everywhere. (Soils etc.) I guess it's one of those things (like E.Coli) that can be benign or fatal. It can cause a kind of meningitis that can kill people. It's used in the fermentation of HFCS; it's used in the GM preparation of synthetic insulin. These are just some I came across without looking. To answer your question, yes, it's been found but can't be convicted.

dickm


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Jim, I just don't think we're ready to rule out beekeeper error just yet.
And I sure do not say this as a slap in the face of those that have suffered the losses.
Most of us know some awfully good beekeepers that have suffered a hefty crash somewhere along the line. In fact it has appeared to me that those beekeepers emerged from their bad year, a MUCH better beekeeper. They watch things closer.
Here's another concern that I have had:
I have gone to some State conventions, that every single presentation was about mites. Often at bee meetings or here on the web, I notice first year beekeepers totally consumed with mites. 
Do they even grasp the lifecycle of the bee yet?
How about Nutrition? I really think a lot of basic beekeeping is being overlooked at times.
I expressed this to George Hansen years ago when I ran my first Oregon convention. I asked him, "What should be our theme?"
He replied, "Anything but mites?" 
I thought that was a good one. We learned a lot about beekeeping anyway.
I'm not pointing the finger here. I am really making an effort to pay more attention to nutrition, queens, etc.... blah, blah, blah
Our bees have wintered much better since.
. . . . . . .

Keith, I added the signature after watching some awfully good people getting caught up in the "snake oil of the week" treatments. To the "Works for me!!!" post is a nonanswer, feel good, replacement for the old saw: "Ignorance is bliss".


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

Jim Fischer said:


> ...and it should be clear to all that these guys are spending money to
> look at CCD that was not in the budget, possibly taking money away
> from planned work that needs to be done.
> 
> [/SIZE][/SIZE]


Well, it's not clear to me. And the reason it's not clear that those who are actually doing whatever research has been done haven't bothered to inform the several thousand of us here about what progress they are making. 



> The team working on the problem can also be excused for no providing more updates for your education and entertainment. They are kinda
> busy. Jerry B. has been posting to Bee-L from time to time, and this
> is about the best we can expect in the way of "updates from the field".


This indicates that those of us who would like to know more aren't worth taking a few minutes to talk to. That's fine. But if someone wants increased funding for a project from taxpayers, they would do well to explain to taxpayers and beekeepers why they need them to contact their senators and representatives and voice support for funding. 

Do us a favor, those of you who are in contact with the researchers and bee lab folks. Tell them that many of us would like to know what they're doing, how it's going, and what we can do to help support it when it comes time to dragging more of our money out of the legislators. If they can't bring themselves to address the people whose money they're going to be asking for, they can't realistically expect a huge wave of phone calls and emails on their behalf.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Hi Coyote,
It's lonely out here in the sidlines isn't it. When I was close to the story it was impressed on me that the investigators were real people. They weren't the gubmint employees that take 2 hours for lunch. They were working on weekends and doing a lot of travelling. If they never come out with a theory or proof that would be a finding. In other wordss, what's been eliminated may be more important than what's been found. They have no reason to hold anythig back. That tells me there is nothing fit to publish. I feel sure that a lot has been learned about the abnormality of a normal hive.

dickm


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

dickm said:


> Hi Coyote,
> It's lonely out here in the sidlines isn't it. When I was close to the story it was impressed on me that the investigators were real people. They weren't the gubmint employees that take 2 hours for lunch. They were working on weekends and doing a lot of travelling. If they never come out with a theory or proof that would be a finding. In other wordss, what's been eliminated may be more important than what's been found. They have no reason to hold anythig back. That tells me there is nothing fit to publish. I feel sure that a lot has been learned about the abnormality of a normal hive.
> 
> dickm


I appreciate the work you did. It's been noted that there will be hearings coming up, and that the funding for bee research has been stagnant. I think it would be helpful if those of us who actually stay in contact with our representatives could help make the case that more money needs to be allocated. That's hard to do if the people who will probably be asking for help from Congress or the USDA don't help us by at least giving us some guidance about what's going on and where the bucks need to go. 
The more a constituent knows about the issue they're lobbying for, the better the reception on the part of their congress critter.

If I talk to my Congressman in the next week or two, what should I tell him about increasing funding?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Dennis van Englesdorp has been hot on the trail of this. It turns out that the stuff is everywhere. He thought that a mutated strain could be the cause because it's everywhe

Mites looked under a microscope look much like an ugly dust mop. Perhaps the mites are transfering the aspergillus fungal straight into the bees systems. Known symtoms of this infection are flying off, disorintation and dieing far from the hive.
Just a thought.


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