# Cutting down Honey Super Cell Frames



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I made some 12 inch deep Permacomb by plastic welding them together, So that is an option too.

No reason you can't do it your way. Two of the cut off pieces will equal one medium. You could weld them and screw frame fixers on the ends and forgo the wood frames.


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## kenpkr (Apr 6, 2004)

Thanks BB. I don't own many power tools but do have access to some. What would be the best type saw to use for making a clean cut on HSC frames? a bandsaw? Could I use my hand-held circular saw?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I would find a friend with a table saw. The fine tooth, thin kerf blade would work best.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm with Bill. Get a plywood blade with lots of teeth. I haven't tried it yet. I might sometime, but so far I just put the full sized ones in some eight frame deeps boxes. That and a few in my Dadant deep hive.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

it occures to me that if you made two mediums out of each HSS frame you'd end up leaving the bees a little room at the bottom to draw some drone comb
you'd also knock the per piece price down to where it was less or a least equal to Permacomb
let the price wars begin








I'm getting two boxes tommorrow or Tuesday, I'll give it a try

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Well, lets see. What if you cut them in half. That would make two pieces 4 3/8". That leaves 1 5/8" for the bees to build whatever on. I don't know how that would work out. But one could add a 3/4" by 3/4" piece of wood on the bottom to keep them from burring it and then it would only be 7/8" for them to build in. Or you could cut a one by so it's a full 1 5/8" and add that to the bottom.

I was thinking more on the lines of cutting three inches off the bottom and putting that in the top part of a medium frame with 2 1/4" left as a gap at the bottom.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Michael,

here's a pic Tony350i posted

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h319/tony350i/83073de2.jpg

I think it's Permacomb cut up and inserted in the frames they use in England
I was thinking of using HSS in a similar way
maybe center the HSS vertically so the bees could build a little honey storage above and some drones below
when I get it in my hands and measure some stuff I'll be able to figure out what I think is best
I'll bounce my ideas off this crowd before I cut anything (ask twice, cut once)









Dave


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

here's 1 HSC frame cut in 2 and inserted into a couple of medium frames

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/DSC01524.JPG

kinda late to try putting it in a hive around here

Dave


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Nice. They should have some space for drone cells that way.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

How much did you cut off? It looks like more than 3".


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I cut 1 frame exactly in half with a bandsaw to minimize the width of the kerf
it basically makes 2 mediums out of 1 deep
you can do it because the HSC doesn't waste space with a top and bottom bar
it's pretty much all comb
I also had to cut off the "end bars"

Dave

[edit] each piece ends up being 4-5/8" "tall"
[edit 2] I should also mention, on the first one I tried to attach the comb to the frame with screws
this didn't work to well
you're trying to shoot the screw into the mid-rib of the comb which just doesn't work to well
the second I did with a pneumatic brad nailer thru the end bars
that works a lot better

[ September 21, 2006, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Very nice work!

Tell us how the bees handle the gaps below
the plastic comb next spring, please.


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## Jeffrey Todd (Mar 17, 2006)

Good idea, good photos. Thanks, Dave. You just helped bring the cost down to a more reasonable level.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

here's another possibility

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/hsc/

comments please (before I go and build a bunch







) 

Dave


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## kenpkr (Apr 6, 2004)

Beautiful Dave. That's exactly what I want to try next spring. How did you attach the HSC to the bottom of the top bar? 
Thanks for posting the pics.

Ken


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I had some discussion with Sundance who is knowledgeable about paints/adhesives and stuff
he said glues don't work well on polyethelyne
I tried a polyurathane glue from Elmer's that is just a ripoff of Gorrilla Glue
it worked OK
I don't think I'd trust it for anything structural but I figure the bees are gonna stick everything together once they start using them
1 note: once I cut the endbars off I just cut it in 2 horizontally, then for the ones that are a 1/4 comb I cut em verticaly
the HSC cells are on a slight angle as they should be, this means there is a proper top and bottom
on my first hack I left the top and bottom bars on, this was a mistake and made it hard to get them to hang perfectly straight down from the topbar of the wooden frame because the top and bottom bar of the HSC frame are a little tapered so they will pop out of the mold
on the next ones I'll cut the top and bottom bars off the HSC

note 2: it's WAY easier to cut the stuff with a bandsaw than a tablesaw

Dave


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

What if you left the end bars in place,
cut it down the middle, and attached
the bottom half to a wooden top bar
with metal end frame repair thingys?

Might be faster and would save on the
cost of two frames


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

There are several plastic bumper repair
adhesives (2 part) that are remarkably
strong. Expensive to be sure, but it
could be used to "spot weld" it in
place at strategic points.

And of course the bees will glue it up
nicely with time.....


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

hmm
interesting idea
I've never messed with the repair thingys you speak of
the way I'm doing it is pretty labor intensive
the way you suggest would end up with no bottom bar wouldn't it??

Dave


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

the glue I used seems to be adequate to get em introduced into the hives
I guess only experience will tell

Dave


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Right.... However I am not sure of
the dimension issues and bee space.
One could add a bottom bar if needed
to preserve bee space.

It would save bunches of time and
labor if it would work.

Excellent work and ideas Dave!

[ October 06, 2006, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: Sundance ]


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

little update

I built up 20 frames with 1/4 of a HSC frame each
I attached the HSC with the polyurathane glue I mentioned
I also took 2 of the scrap end bars and glued them together as a test of the strength
as Sundance said, it's not a very good glue for polyethylene
I could pull the end bars apart with my hands, but it wasn't easy
certainly not good enough for anything structural but I think for this application it's fine

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Drobbins, Keep us posted on how the quarter frames work out. I'm curious.









I am kind of partial to the half ones, but it seems a shame to cut the ears and ends off of the top half. But then the bottom isn't realy half is it?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Michael,

I figure if you cut the frame down to be a "normal" medium, then what you're left with is hard to use
it's not shaped right to be able to get it into the center of the frame
it'll end up to be where the bees usually put a honey cap above the brood
anyway, this is what I decided to try
I'll certainly post updates in the spring
the next challenge is how to introduce it









Dave

[edit] oh yea, the quarter frames
I'm curious to see how they work too
I didn't make to many because it's a bit radical
it was kinda hard to get the comb to hang down straight from the topbar
updates in the spring

[ October 09, 2006, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

If you cut two full frames down to mediums, don't the cut offs add up to a medium? Those two could be welded/glued into a wooden medium frames like the ones above. I would rather salvage the HSC top bars and ends.

The end bars on HSC are very tough. I just received a pallet of HSC and they withstood being pierced by a fork lift twice. Some minor damage but not enough damage to squawk about. I tell you, shippers are NOT our friends!


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

yikes!!
that's a great idea
to bad I already sawed mine in half  
actually I have 2 more I could sacrifice, maybe I'll give that a try too 

Dave


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## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

Dave:

Your quarter frames could turn out to be a plus on introduction since bees are generally reluctant to use plastic when there is a choice.

If your box is filled with alternating full width and 1/4s the bees 'should' start building wax along the top bar on either side of the 1/4s. Once the queen starts using these to start laying she 'should' progress to filling in the 1/4 with eggs.

Seems like a way to give swarms the opportunity to build wax so that they do not abscond like so many of them do when given all-plastic to build on.

> .....bees usually put a honey cap above the brood

In light of that, it would be a more efficient use of HSC in the full width mediums to attach the HSC to the bottom of the frame. Is there a mechanical/construction reason why you did not try that?

Bill:

> If you cut two full frames down to mediums, don't the cut offs add up to
> a medium? Those two could be welded/glued into a wooden medium frames like
> the ones above. I would rather salvage the HSC top bars and ends.

Sounds good, it makes for half the work. All of the 2/3 frames are instantly usable and the 1/3 can be used to make partial or full frames.

All of this inventiveness to reduce the cost of HSC will make us smile some years down the track if HSC takes off and the cost drops to the point of making this unnecessary.


JP


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

> .....bees usually put a honey cap above the brood

in my observation hive the bees don't seem to mind putting honey in small cells at all
what say you folks with experience using PC in the brood nest?
do the bees still put a honey cap above the brood??

Bullseye?

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>what say you folks with experience using PC in the brood nest?
do the bees still put a honey cap above the brood??

The PC in my observation hive right now has brood all the way to the top. There's a frame of honey above that, but no cap on that comb. I'd say that's pretty normal. Of course there's honey on the ends.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>All of this inventiveness to reduce the cost of HSC will make us smile some years down the track if HSC takes off and the cost drops to the point of making this unnecessary.

Either PC or HSC, if you buy enough of it at a time, there are price breaks.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>what say you folks with experience using PC in the brood nest?
do the bees still put a honey cap above the brood??

Bullseye?

Once the bees have fully accustomed themselves to PC they treat it like wax.

It is not really a matter of honey just over the brood, and I know if you look at the center frame it looks that way, but think of the broodnest as a sphere. Whether the brood reaches the top of the frame or not, there is still honey above it and all the way around the sphere of brood. OK, not below it  but all around and above it like a dome. Also there will be some pollen sandwiched in between the honey and brood.

The bees use PC for everything, even for drones. I don't know if the drones ever hatch, but I see drone caps on PC at times. Most of the drone cells are in between the frames. Queen cells are both in between the frames and attached to the sides of frames, but the PC is used universally for brood, pollen, and honey.


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## hzxlvf (Aug 31, 2006)

How about using "hot glue" it sets fast and I think it would make this an easy job. Any reason not to try it?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Glue won't stick to polypropolene very well and would not take any abuse.


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## chinitoe (Dec 10, 2006)

drobbins, any update yet?? 

some pics would be nice too...


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

The only sure way to bond polypropylene is to
plastic weld it with polypropylene rods. It is
not that hard either. You can get the rods at
any body shop supply house and use a Weller
pistol grip soldering gun.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

chinitoe,

I've made up 100 medium frames
It's winter here so waiting for spring to do anything with them
I did take a couple of boxes of them and lay the frames on their side and fill them with sugar and then wet them down
I put them on a couple of hives that were a little light

Dave


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Dave,

Have you any update on how your medium frame HSC experiments are going?


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

I bought a case of the HSC a few months back and like others, I've wanted to cut it down to medium size, but just didn't know what my approach would be. Dave has done some interesting variations, and it will be good to hear what results he's getting from the bees.
When looking at the deep HSC frame, I realized I wanted to use as much of it as possible to fill out the medium frames, so I figured I could get optimal use of the HSC frame by just cutting the original frame horizontally at 6-1/4" down from the top of the frame, just on the outside of the mold line.....using my bandsaw.

That gave me this............

http://i14.tinypic.com/307rk41.jpg

Well, that was an easy medium frame to make,...now the challenging part.

I was left with a 2-11/16" piece off the bottom of that frame,(after trimming 1 row of cut cells), and I cut off the plastic end bars. When put together with another bottom piece from a second full size HSC frame, could be made to fit into a wooden medium frame with slight alterations to the frame.
Therefore I could make 3 medium size HSC frames from 2 deep HSC frames.

Here they are.....

http://i5.tinypic.com/33kxbb5.jpg

I made a few alterations to the wooden frame BEFORE assembling it,...to allow the insertion of the largest size of HSC comb, and to insure a tight mating of surfaces between the two cut off sections that would be mated together. 
I reduced the thickness of the wooden topbar to 3/8",..the same thickness as the end tabs, by running them through a planer. Then on the bottom bar, I hand planed a "V" shape on its inside edge to conform to the bottom of the HSC frame, which is slightly V shaped..........

http://i10.tinypic.com/2d15oup.jpg

Also, with a rasp, I shaped the mating surface of the top of the lower piece into a slight V , so it would mate tightly with the bottom of the upper piece.......

http://i3.tinypic.com/4503r88.jpg

They just fit very snugly together in the Medium wooden frame,...in these photos with no glue or pinning.....

http://i14.tinypic.com/3ymg3uu.jpg 

http://i3.tinypic.com/2dt0pde.jpg

I'll probably just pin them through the side bars with a few small finish nails , just to keep them aligned in the frame, and the bees will propolize them in very nicely.

I realize not everyone will go to all this trouble, but I only have the one case of HSC, and wanted to change as much of it into medium size as possible,...with as much of the HSC as I could possibly fit into a wooden frame. As it ended up, only two horizontal cell rows are wasted in the process.

Here's some close-up photos ........

http://i11.tinypic.com/33lgs4i.jpg 

http://i9.tinypic.com/49917ah.jpg 

http://i3.tinypic.com/2qtiolt.jpg

Well,...I guess I better get going on the rest of the HSC frames in that case....


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

denny,

interesting approach
Bullseye suggested something along the same lines
around here there is a concern about SHB and I've heard it suggested that those voids in the end bars would be a good place for them to hide
I don't think SHB are much of a problem where you are
good luck, let us know how they work out

Dave


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Joseph,

I put 2 boxes of it on a hive last fall with sugar poured in the cells (for feed)
they're raising brood in it now
last weekend I started two packages in nucs with 4 frames of it and 1 wax drawn comb
we're getting a cold snap here tomorrow, I'll get some pics and post them next week when it ends

Dave


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

Thanks Dave! 

I don't have any trouble with SHB up here,....but I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years they might be around. The turkey vultures keep moving further north up around us here,...when 10 yrs ago there were none.
I wonder if some sort of non-toxic filler could be used to fill those pockets/voids in the end bars?

I'm psyched to see how these HSC frames work.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

*Sweet!*

Nice work Denny.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

thanks bullseye,

denny, I was thinking maybe fill em with beeswax
I tried silicon caulk and it was way messy

Dave


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

Dave,
aaahhhhhh, yes!
Beeswax,...perfect  the bees would love that!

Bullseye,...thanks, ...... I think it was your idea that inspired me.


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## John F (Dec 9, 2005)

Why not leave the plastic end bars, epoxy the two cutoffs together and a topbar on that? Wouldn't need wood endbars or bottom bar or to send the topbar through the planer.


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

John,...that's a clever idea, and worth trying if I can be sure the glue used will hold the two pieces & topbar together. Dave had mentioned earlier in this thread that he wasn't sure how strong polyurethane glue would be on the polyethelyne HSC comb.

Last night I glued two pieces of comb together with Elmer's polyurethane "Ultimate Glue" just to make it easier to insert them into the wooden medium frame as one unit. I don't want to pull the pieces apart to test the strength,.....but your suggestion would work great if one could be assured that whatever glue is used, will hold it together,because the parts will have no support otherwise, with the exception of the bees propolising the whole unit over time.

I'll do a glue strength experiment and glue two cutoff HSC endbars together, clamped overnight, and see how strong the joint is.

Thanks for the suggestion 

(afterthought)......does anyone think the dried polyurethane would be toxic to the bees?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

>'ll do a glue strength experiment

do it to convince yourself but I've already done it
it ain't very strong, I could pull it apart by hand
Bullseye mentioned plastic welding
I've never done it but I know there is such a thing
maybe he'll elaborate

Dave


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

*Plastic Welding*

Plastic welding is a tool used in the auto repair industry to mend bumper covers and plastic skirts on automobiles. It has many other uses too, but it is readily available for repair shops.

I bought one on line about three years ago when I was making a long hive. I welded two PC frames together to make a 12 inch deep frame, lots of frames.

The process is just like soldering except the iron is larger and the rod is more forgiving. Preparation of two parts is much like any other welding. A V shape trough is made between the two parts being welded together that provides a place for the filler rod material. My best bonding was achieved while melting both parts and the rod at the same time. The weld can be smoothed later after the initial pass of weld, but with practice the weld can be put down smoothly the first time.

There are many types of rods available and it is important to use the correct one for your material. The welding kits will have a small variety of rods as well as a chart included as a guide and ordering instructions.


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## thesurveyor (Aug 20, 2002)

Bullseye, do you have any pics of what the finished product should look like, Or any pics at all of the process?


Thanks


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I have a lot of pictures of all kinds of neat and unusual stuff. What I don't have is a web site.


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## Wayne Smith (Dec 15, 2006)

BULLSEYE BILL said:


> I have a lot of pictures of all kinds of neat and unusual stuff. What I don't have is a web site.


Get on it dude! Let us know when it's ready for prime time.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Bullseye

I'll be glad to give you some space to put your website on
I remember all your pictures, you do have some cool stuff
just say the word

Dave


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

*Thanks!*

My problem is I don't have a 12 year old to show me how to make a site anymore  He's all grown up and chasing girls,  and too busy for dear old Dad.

I don't want to usurp this thread about the easiest web design program, so I will go to the Forum and ask there. (I avoid the Trash section as much as possible.) If there is a real easy one out there that I can figure out I would really like to master it and get her done myself.


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## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

Hot glue was dismissed earlier in this thread as being too weak for joining HSC cutoffs and polyurethane is considered marginal as it does not bond well to the poly.

3M makes a bunch of special purpose adhesives, and the description of Scotch-Weld Hot Melt Adhesive 3747 holds promise:

"A general purpose hot melt adhesive for bonding most plastics, wood and light gauge metal. It offers good heat resistance, good impact resistance, flexibility and has a high delivery rate with a moderate bonding range."

The photos Denny provided clearly show the V at the top which provides a natural fill area for the adhesive. This is a benefit with poly glues because they expand as a filler and the epoxy itself is structurally strong, but if 3747 has low intrinsic strength it would be a disaster because the only bonding area would be the edges of the V.

Has someone on this forum tried 3747 and can relate their experience with regards to strength for bonding wood and poly?


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

JaiPea said:


> Has someone on this forum tried 3747 and can relate their experience with regards to strength for bonding wood and poly?



JaiPea,........thanks for the suggestion. I haven't tried 3747, but might check that out. 
I picked up some Devcon 2-part Plastic Welder, instructions say it's good on hard plastics, metal, concrete, vinyl, PVC pipe, & fiberglass. Haven't tried it yet because i got all the rest of the HSC pieces put together well enough with 2-part epoxy, just to hold enough to secure with small screws through the wooden top & bottom bars. I managed to make 30 medium frames from one case of HSC, 10 of them being made with the HSC cutoffs installed in wooden frame.

Now if only the weather would just change......


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