# Question regarding even split



## Ian G (Jul 29, 2014)

So I've had bees for a year now and 6 hives made it through the winter. Im getting ready to split toward the end of April early May for the first time and have been doing tons of reading on here. My goals are growth and honey and to also prevent swarming.

My question is, assuming no drought and normal nectar flow, if i do an even split will you still get a honey crop from the hives or will both populations be too reduced to bring in extra for me to harvest?


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## Matt F (Oct 7, 2014)

Too many variables for a straight answer. I'm in a similar boat with just one hive. I've read that if you let the split raise their own queen (you don't buy/introduce a new one) then they'll forage a lot more in the three weeks before they have any larva to tend.

I suspect if you have enough for a full hive box in each half of the split, you'll get quite a bit of honey. The later you split the less honey you'll get, obviously.


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## RD35 (May 20, 2014)

We, too, are in the same boat. One of our two hives is very strong with lots of bees in both deep 10-frame boxes (1 hive). We are considering doing a near-even split, but with a bit more bees and open brood in the existing box, and putting capped brood, some nurse bees, and the existing queen in the new box. We will move the new box with existing queen, nurse bees, and capped brood to a new location 75 yards away and attempt to force a reorientation with branches and boards to mask both hives in order to minimize the loss of foragers flying back to the original hive. Gonna try this and see what happens unless somebody here convinces us otherwise.


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## BjornH (Nov 8, 2013)

Well, dont do even splitS if you want to secure honey. When the flow starts, keep the queen with a couple of frames with brood and empty frames ( undrawn or drawn) in one box, excluder and supers on the old spot. Rest of the hive move to somwhere else . The queenless, hive( dont break it apart in nucs yet) create cells. Old queen and foragers bring in honey. After 5/6 days ( if you like) make nucs Or just let them sort it out and just keep one new queen. 1 hive becomes 2. 6 to 12.. And ju still have honey, new drawn frames in the supers, fresh frames in the broodarea with the old queen. New hive probably stron enough for fending their self, but keep an eye whith feed. I have long flow , from willow now to thistle in august with dandelions, clover, rasberrys, and basswood during may, june , july so there is no problem. My suggestion.


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## Shutrbug (Feb 8, 2015)

Ahh - a newbie forum post where we are all in the same boat! I will be interested to hear all of your experiences. I have read much of Michael Bush's site after starting to ask all of these questions, and I am ready to try it. The Master Beekeeper in our club said "Just try it - you will never know what will happen until you do." I mostly want to make sure I don't do harm to what the ladies have already done. 

Most of the split techniques involve knowing where the Queen is, and I have not mastered the skill of finding her. I'm going to try the Even split as well and then sit back and let them do their thing.


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## RD35 (May 20, 2014)

Shutrbug said:


> Most of the split techniques involve knowing where the Queen is, and I have not mastered the skill of finding her. I'm going to try the Even split as well and then sit back and let them do their thing.


Same here....If, when we open up this hive, we cannot find the queen then we will just do an even split and watch to see how it all works out. I believe we have enough brood in this strong hive to produce a queen from either half....so we'll prep the stand to hold both hives facing each other and give it a go if we cannot find the queen.


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## Matt F (Oct 7, 2014)

My current plan to split, if I can't find the queen, is to take out all the split frames and shake them off into the lower box. Put the queen excluder on the lower box and put the split back on top of the queen excluder. That way the nurse bees come back to the top but you're sure the queen is in the lower. Come back the next day and take either box as your "walk away split." If you take the upper, there's no queen and if you take the lower, the queen is in there. Personally I plan to set it up in the morning and pull it off at dusk so I have some foragers in the split as well.


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## BjornH (Nov 8, 2013)

Nope, not newbee in the strict meaning, but still peekin in the 101 forum. Average 60-100 hives since 2008.
well, dont need to 'find' queen. Arange a box for her as suggested above..whith all bees shaken of in front of it on a swarmboard or similar, as longcas she can walk back. Put Excluder on top. Shake/ brush of rest of bees front of her hive. Put bee beefre brood frames in box on top of excluder. When done, put back hive top. Next day, take the box above excluder and place it somwhere else. SuperS On old place. Queenless hive, wait for cells. Young bees covering brood important for cell building. Fieldbees for honeygathering with oldcqueen. This is one structural recip. And i use it occasinally still but then for direct nuc making and putting in cells. Good luck. Neewbee is just an early state of confusion, most of us from non beekeeping familys has been going through it and survived  
Just dig in and do. First with one hive. Look at the result.


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## RD35 (May 20, 2014)

Hey this is great info! Do you need to be sure there is uncapped brood/eggs in the upper box, or is it safe to assume there is? Also, should we check for swarm cells in the lower box prior to the split? (in other words, after this major disturbance, will the bees turn away from a swarm prep even if queen cells have already been started?


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## BjornH (Nov 8, 2013)

RD35, dont know if it was my comment or Matts that was great but i answer as if it mine... 
Yes look for swarm cells. 1-If there is, well, thennyou have your cells! Do the same as above ( new box with bee free ( and cellfree ( important) 2-3 frames on the old stan for the returning ( walking/climbing old quee. Queenexcluder. Broodbox with carefully sweept off beefre frames ( dont destroy the cells). Day ( hours) after that topbox is queenfree and full of freshvyoun bees that will survive untill new queen is hatched, mated and laying. That top box shall bee moved or if multiple cells move divide to nucs.
2- if no cells, yes most of eggs, larva shall bee in the top box above the excluder. 

There is no need to move top box or nucs far away, miles. But at least dont have them on the same stand as queen right hives until you have laying queens in them. Bees Love laying queens. And returning virgins do sometimes fly in to queen right strong hives and can kill that queen or be killed...


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Pretty drastic measures if they are not already in full blown swarm mode already. You could place your supers between the deeps (demaree) and after 3 days you will know the box with the queen. If you find the queen put her in the bottom deep with eggs in the top box. They will build a couple of very impressive cells and on day 10 put the nice cells with a couple of frames of brood to a new box for a mating flight. You are now running 17 frames of original deep that will not hurt your honey and a second hive. If you do a even split you need to make certain you have eggs in each box. You will get a ton of emergency queen cells built by what bees you left them. Cut them down to a couple of nice ones to keep the queen from having to kill them all.


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## BjornH (Nov 8, 2013)

Yes, it is. And in my opinion maximize young bees in a box i put together. For my own part i use grafted cells. moving mating nucs with queen and drone free frames to deicated mating area. I dont bother with field bees in that moment. In the end, that donor hive whith remaining queen will be used again and the queen exchanged to a new one. As i said, one recipe of many.


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## RD35 (May 20, 2014)

BjornH said:


> Bees Love laying queens. And returning virgins do sometimes fly in to queen right strong hives and can kill that queen or be killed...


BjornH
Thank-you! I had not considered the possibility of the virgin queen entering the wrong hive. I am sure this is pretty rare, but the consequences are pretty bad too. Also thanks to Matt and Shutrbug...I am learning the very things I need to know to give me a much higher probability of a successful "first ever" split. Got our boxes built last night and my wife (and bee buddy) is going to paint them today. Got bad weather right now...thunder, lightning, hail, tornados...the works. But supposed to be nicer tomorrow and really nice Saturday....so that may be our only opportunity for this split!
Ian, hope this discussion is answering your questions as well. Based on what I have learned, I'd say if you do it right, you can have a booming honey crop assuming you have good weather and a good nectar flow!


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## RD35 (May 20, 2014)

Ian G
Hope your splits are working out. We opened our bee-packed hive, found the queen, put that frame in a new box along with a couple frames of capped brood, nurse bees, and some capped honey frames (3 frames). Then filled everything else with empty deep frames. Put the hives back together right next to and facing each other at 90 degrees out from the original hive orientation. After dark, we blocked them in so they could not leave the hive. Next day, moved the queened (new) hive about 100 feet away to its new location. Kept both hives blocked off for 72 hours, then removed the entrance closures. So far as I can tell, the bees from the new location did not fly back to the old hive. The reoriented and stayed there. Both hives are now working like mad. The old hive, having more bees and more frames of brood, is really really busy. The new hive is also very active...so for now we will call it a successful split. Will check to see if the old hive has raised a queen later this week.


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