# Do you make your own frames? Please show me how!



## westernbeekeeper

Hello all,
I would like to learn how to make my own frames. I know that some of you all do make your own, and I am wondering if you would be willing to share the steps and process here. Please post pictures or videos! I am really interested in pics and videos, seeing I have already seen some plans, but have yet to come even close to perfecting the process. The few ones I have made work, but take awhile to make, and are altered slightly for easier "manufacturing" and construction. I'll post some photos as soon as I can. Thanks in advance.


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## DLMKA

I'm in the same boat. I'd like to see if I can cost effectively make my own frames. I think getting choice lumber is going to be the difficult part. It'd be impossible to make good frames from the standard 1 by lumber I get from Lowe's without cutting out a bunch of the big knots.


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## jrbbees

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?276264-Homemade-Frame-Designs


Read above


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## westernbeekeeper

Okay, here is my very simple design. The bottom bar is an unused one from Mann Lake that I had sitting around. I make my own bottom bars identically except for that I don't neck down the ends.This is an unused foundationless jumbo frame; you can tell by the fishline wiring and the starter strip in the top bar groove. Here are some pics:


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## djastram

Has anybody ever used plywood for end bars? Pros? Cons?

Thanks.

DJ


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## Savethehoneybee

Cons... Warping, chipping when shaping, voids where beetles can hide. Don't really see any benefits.


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## BeeCurious

djastram said:


> Has anybody ever used plywood for end bars? Pros? Cons?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> DJ


I'm certainly not a woodworker but I would think that the plywood would be very hard on any dado blades or other cutters.


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## djastram

I was going to try to CNC some bars out of baltic birch, but would like to know if it would have any effect the bees at all.

I'm sure there are plenty of opinions on ply in the hive, so forgive me if I hit a nerve.


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## Savethehoneybee

I am a woodworker and we use plywood a lot for shelves and routinely cut dados in it. That isn't much of an issue to me, but it's suitability for making frames is certainly a no. Just not stable enough.


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## Savethehoneybee

I would also think that plywood would lead to weak joints unless you used a polyurethane expanding glue like gorilla glue due to the voids in the edges of plywood. If you're gonna CNC, I would use 1x12 and make sure you cut it right in relationship to the grain of course.


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## Beesrme

Western-beekeeper, I was introduced to making my own frames by my mentor and have refined it and now make my own frames and boxes. I had made some special cutters which work with a Shaper and and have had the blades on my Jioner recut to make the end bar so that it is just like it comes from the bee supply. You can use a whobble Dado to do a lot of the other cuts that are required. I don't have any photos to share or videos yet will see if the wife can take a few pictures and I will post them later so if you ever get to this part of Calif. Let me know and I will show you. Tom


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## westernbeekeeper

Beesrme said:


> Western-beekeeper, I was introduced to making my own frames by my mentor and have refined it and now make my own frames and boxes. I had made some special cutters which work with a Shaper and and have had the blades on my Jioner recut to make the end bar so that it is just like it comes from the bee supply. You can use a whobble Dado to do a lot of the other cuts that are required. I don't have any photos to share or videos yet will see if the wife can take a few pictures and I will post them later so if you ever get to this part of Calif. Let me know and I will show you. Tom


I would love to see some photos. Is there any way you can post some pics of the tools and process? Thanks!


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## Beesrme

Benjamin, I will try and take some pictures this week end and have my wife post them so I can send then along. Drop me a e-mail to this address. [email protected] Tom


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## Daniel Y

BeeCurious said:


> I'm certainly not a woodworker but I would think that the plywood would be very hard on any dado blades or other cutters.


Plywood is very hard on blades. the glue that hold the lamination together is abrasive. think of sawing sandpaper constantly. Carbide tipped blades withstand it fairly well.

Delamination of the plys might be a problem inside the hive. Otherwise all plywood have voids in between the outer plys cheap ply is used to make the thickness only grade ply is used on the outer surfaces. That is why ply is graded C-D Ext (Called CDX). one side is grade C and the other is grade D. and is for Exterior use. But the middle is trash.


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## windfall

CDX is one of many many many types of plywood....and about the lowest grade you can buy.
Not all plywood have voids, better quality cabinet plys will not, and marine ply will not.
That said, plywood seems a poor choice for any frame components at a number of levels.

Benjamin,
I like making my own gear. The frames I make I feel are better than any I have purchased...but not that much better...and certainly not better enough to make any functional difference. I have a full woodshop, I have been a profesional woodworker for 15 years and it is still financially foolish for me to be making frames. Once or twice a year I do a run of a hundred or so because my needs are small and I hate to burn a bunch of nice clear scrap. But for an operation of any size I just can't see it.

The bulk of the time is in the top bars. The dadant style construction gives you a very strong joint in the vertical pull relative to the side bars. MOst of the shortcuts I have seen (including yours) are a substantial step down in strength and I would worry about them holding up long term in hives that are not worked very regularly keeping the frames loose.

But like I said, I get wanting to make your own gear. And there have been times i my life when I had free time a plenty but precious little cash. If I wanted to make a lot of functional durable frames cheap/fast I would look at some type of light metal strapping to bind the top bar to the side bars and keep the joinery in that area simplified. Good luck with it.


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## Daniel Y

Windfall, You are right. but the context of this conversation is about making fraems a 70 cent item if purchased at some sources. I think it is pretty safe no one is going to consider a $50 plus sheet of plywood.

I also have a full shop and agree it is not worth the time it takes. Go mow yards you can make more money in the same time as it would take to order them. A woodworker has a desire to get out in the shop. This adds to the benefits of making your own. but even with that it is barely worth it for me. Time in my shop would be far more quality if spent it making a bow rather than 100 veeeery boring frames.


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## psfred

As soon as I get a band saw I'll be starting in on the load of frames I need to make since I want all narrows for the brood nest. Less waste with the band saw, I get a "free" top bar from each blank.

The other advantage is that if you want to make non-standard sized hive boxes for some reason, you can still use standard style frames. I'm thinking of trying some extra deep boxes this year for brood (standard 1x12 width, whatever that is) and I can easily make my own frames, or just end bars if I want.

Here's what I do:

Find some nice straight, flat 2 by stock (any width, but 8 or 10 inch is easier). Cut to 19" long or a shade less, then run through the planer to get it as close to flat as possible without taking more than 1/16" off each side. Joint one side true -- the other will be waste most likely.

Set up the table saw to cut an angled cut across the end for the angled end (18 degrees, I think -- I just match a Kelley top bar). Cut the slot in both sides of the 2 by blank. 

Repeat for a pile of blanks -- this is one job you need to do in discrete steps, that way once you get it set up correctly you can make a couple hundred at a time.

Set up the band saw to rip the blank into double bars the correct width (7/8" for narrows, 1 1/16" for standard top bars). Cut the whole pile of blanks. Discard any thin or knotty ones -- always a surprise in that 2 by somewhere.

Set the band saw up to split the doubles exactly in half (another reason to plane the blanks down a bit, they will all be exactly the same thickness). Split the doubles into singles.

Set up the table saw with the dado blade to cut the notches in the sides 1/16" to 1/8" deep. Cut all the bars, both sides, both ends using a boat or a correctly set slide. Double check for square before cutting, and make sure you have the inside edge of the slot exactly 1" from the end of the bar.

Set the dado higher to cut the correct depth on the bottom of the bar to get 5/8" of material left. Cut both ends -- this will cut off the extra under the taper. 

I use a wedge type bar, so I cut a single kerf just off center so that the center of a sheet of foundation will be exactly in the center of the top bar, then cut another kerf to almost free a strip on the thin side. For grooved top bars just cut a centered kerf.

Top bars are done.

Plane down some 2 by stock to the correct width for your end bars. Narrow frames need 1.25", standard 1.375". Cut some sections of planed down 2 by to the correct length for the frames you are making. Don't remember the exact dimensions off the top of my head, but they are standard. Set the dado blade for the correct width to fit your top bars (measure!) and mill a slot across one end of the blocks 5/8" deep. Best to do this in a couple passes, at least on my saw. Again, you can use a "boat" jig, it's safer.

Mill whatever slot you need in the bottom of the end bars -- i use 2 slots 1/8" apart that are 5/16" x 5/16" for square bars that size for a divided bottom bar, you can use whatever you like. 

Set the band saw up to cut the blocks into end bars lengthwise. Purchased end bars run close to 5/16", I've made most of mine so far at 3/8", they are a bit stronger that way. Make sure they are just a tiny bit narrower than the slot you cut in the top bars so they slide together. Slice your blocks into end bars. 

Set up a jointer to cut 1/8" deep and cut the sides down on the end bars if you want to make Hoffman style bars, or just leave them full width, either works. Supposed to be less propolis with the Hoffman style.

Cut the bottom bar of your choice. I've been using up scrap for mine, although it's also easy to cut them from the left overs and 2 by stock. If you use 3/8" end bars, the bottom bars will be 17 3/4" long.

I hand drill the holes for the cross wires, but I'll probably fix up a drill jig this year to get them spaced better and closer to the center of the bars. I like cross wires.

Assemble with glue and nails. Verify that the frames are square and flat before the glue sets! 

This project works best if you do all of one step before moving on to the next. I'm collecting scrap 2 by at the moment (got some nice 2 x 10 cedar at Menard's in the scrap bin for 69 cents a couple weeks ago). Once I get enough to give me the 100 or so top bars I want this year, I'll get going and start filling cardboard boxes with partially done work. It's pretty boring -- doing the same job over and over and over, but it's pretty fast once you get set up. Takes longer to set up each set than to do it most of the time, especially cutting the dados on the blocks for end bars. I highly recommend you make as many as you think you'll use in a couple years at once, that way you don't have to set up again.

Peter


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## psfred

Got a band saw this weekend, so once all the parts come in and I get it tuned up, I'll start some frames and post some pictures of the process.

Gotta love Craigslist, eh?

Peter


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## westernbeekeeper

Thanks everyone! Yes, Peter, I'm looking forward to your pics. Thanks for the explanating you did, too. (or is that _explaining_?)


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## MaydayMalone

I don't see the cost effectiveness in making your own frames when you can get them for 90 cents and below from suppliers.


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## Mr.Beeman

1 frame $1.00
60 frames in a typical hive $60.00
600 frames in 10 hives $600.00

My bee bud and I can build 600 professional quality frames for far less than $600.00
That guy is the jig master.


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## psfred

Not only that, but you can easily make custom frames for non-standard boxes. True narrow frames with narrow top bars instead of standard ones with shaved down end bars, for instance.

Maybe not for a commercial beek, but then again, how many new frames a year does one need in an established apiary? Ditto for boxes, since they should both last quite a while.

Peter


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## RichardsonTX

If you want to build your frames then build your first hives with frames that you order. After you get the feel for what each piece looks like and why its shaped the way it is, it will be a lot easier for you to build your own frames. When I build my own frames I use frame components that Dadant precuts and set my saws to match the shape of those pieces. I use a radial arm saw and table saw. The radial arm saw with a dado blade makes the process very efficient. You can easily build a couple of hundred frame components per day. 

Having said all that. From a labor/time standpoint, the savings isn't that great. But, it sure helps to take your mind off other things. So build frames for the fun of it and buy frames when you are in a time crunch.


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## minz

Peter, here is your post from a while back that I used to make my frames from on how to do it easy. I know you posted above but I found this easier to follow (post 6)
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?265500-Making-frames-and-boxes
I put it into a word document and could not find the post until I took the entire first paragraph to google. 
I would add that since I am working rough cut lumber ($0.40/bf) I plane down some boards to 7/8” (two 3/8” cuts plus kirf) then do as many operations as possible in full length boards for the bottom. (you stated scrap) 
For the top bar I simply planed the boards until they were clean (I was a little thin if memory serves me). Then did as many rip operations as possible. Maybe next time I will run them rough at 1 1/16”
At this point it was all the same so I just cut up the entire planks to as many as I could. Sides determined the frame size and that only came down to what length to cut them at. I pushed mine through the joiner to get the fancy edges (to the depth of the plan after cutting the bottom 3/4” dato.
I purchased some 2x6 for the sides. I dug through them a little but a knot only ruined a couple of frames. It is all about repetition. As it was said about 4 cheap boards made about 75 frames so I really only had my time into it.


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## jrhoto

What do you estimate you have in them if you count your time when they are fully assembled?


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## psfred

If I charged my normal consultant rate those frames would have to be gold filled to break even on them, but I don't consider woodworking time to be consulting. I don't get paid to do it, it's a hobby.

One should be careful about "valuing" time spend on this sort of stuff -- if you were turning down actual work and real income, yeah, you should consider that, but if you were going to mow grass or stare at the boob tube, it's free, not lost income.

I get a little annoyed at people who talk about how much their time is worth when they aren't doing their professional job. Creating frames from scrap (which is where mine come from -- the scrap bin at Menard's) means cash not spent on pre-cut frames. No one is paying me for my time in the shop, and while my job is driving me nuts at the moment -- going in for the SECOND time while I'm on vacation to fix a bad design on a purge and trap concentraton -- I'm not losing any money by making stuff.

I look at it this way -- I'm getting short pieces of 2x6 for 49 or 69 cents. From that 49 cent board, I get ten full sized top bars and deep end bars for them, or two sets of shallow end bars. Narrow frames I get a dozen top bars. I have tons of scrap lying around for bottom bars (I use divided ones), so I'm paying in cash about a nickel per frame, not counting the bandsaw blades I've wrecked in the last week getting my bandsaw working. This is pretty cheap, they are the size I want, and so far I've got an hour in them for 50 frames. I'll have another couple hours before I'm done making parts and putting 100 frames together, and I'd just be reading or cleaning house otherwise.

Suit yourself. I'm not sure I'd do this for a commercial operation, but then again, unless one had to burn a lot of frames every year, I'd not expect to have to replace a huge number even in a large operation, and it's not like I'm doing anything with the bees at the moment, besides going out later today and clearing off the landing boards.

Peter


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Ben, what ever jig you end up making I hope it has some safety features/finger barriers. I know it is a downer to bring it up, but your fingers are valuable to you.
That is one of the reason I use Mann Lake plastic frames. I make all my other woodenware and enjoy it, the box lumber is wide enough that I can keep my fingers away from the blade. Frames are too narrow for my liking and there are so many cuts involved that I can imagine my concentration wandering away from the saw and my fingers wandering into the blade. 
Please be careful.


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## jmgi

I want to start making my own narrow frames (1 1/4") and my biggest concern is the end bars and what to make them out of, is slicing them out of 2x stock the best way to go? John


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## BeeCurious

jmgi said:


> I want to start making my own narrow frames (1 1/4") and my biggest concern is the end bars and what to make them out of, is slicing them out of 2x stock the best way to go? John


I had two 2x10's planed down to 1.25 " to begin with. 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?276575-Homemade-narrow-endbars&p=876152#post876152

I'll thin the lower sections of the end bars on a joiner if there is a next time...


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## jmgi

I would think that you only want to use the nice clear wood without knots on your frame parts so by using 2x material you probably have to scrap some of the board. Will a lumber yard plane down 2x for you? John


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## Daniel Y

jmgi said:


> I want to start making my own narrow frames (1 1/4") and my biggest concern is the end bars and what to make them out of, is slicing them out of 2x stock the best way to go? John


That is how I do it. you might be surprised how many short scrap pieces of 2X you find if you start looking for them. I gathered them up for a couple of days and had enough for 200 end bars.

Not a lot of construction sights around right now but they woudl be a gold mine. They are building a new building right next door to my warehouse. I asked the big boss on that sight to toss a few scraps next to my dock. He had a much bigger idea of a few than I did.


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## psfred

Working on that tonight, I think, unless it gets too cold in the shop -- gotta get the new furnace installed some day.

Planed down a big hunk of 2x6 today to 1.25", will get the piece I got yesterday plus some other odds and ends planed down tonight, then cut to length for deeps, super deeps, and mediums. I've got a few deeps already made, plus some mediums and a handful of top bars.

Cut 120 top bars out of 2 by this afternoon, both cuts, so I'll be setting up the dado blade once I decide if I'm going to use a full 3/8" or 5/16". I'll be able to finish the top bars in an hour or so, probably have to discard some due to knots and splits, there is always a defect in that board one cannot see somewhere, that's why I made 120 instead of the 100 I really need.

Small solid knots I ignore unless I'll have to drive a nail into them --that won't work well. Large knots are a problem in top bars, less so in end bars, but yeah, I do have to watch. Pin knots in soft pine are OK and can be pretty much ignored. If you want perfect clear frames, you will have to do a lot of selecting and discard quite a bit, me, so long as they don't have weak spots, I don't care. I'm sure the bees don't either.

I've been taking photographs as I go this time, so I'll post them once I get them off the camera.

Construction site left-overs are true gold mines for beeks, lots of 18 inch and up 1 x 12 with a knot in the center gets tossed, makes perfect boxes, and what they consider useless short pieces of 2 by are prefect for top bars and end bars.

Waste not want not!

Peter


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

I've cut my own frames but when they can be bought for 60 or 65 cents a piece I don't have the time or the patience to cut them. I figured it up when I built them last (which I will never do again) I had 35 cents in wood to build them. So figure you are saving 30 cents to cut them. 100 frames would save you 30 bucks. PASS! In my opinion it's not worth the time. If you have some specialized equipment to build them and are going to cut 10 or 20 thousand I would say the cost savings would be justified. My 2 cents.


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## psfred

Some pictures. First is a top bar "blank" with the two slots cut in it. 10 degree angle on the table saw set so the wedge is 3/8" measured 3/8" from the end.

Second picture is the 7/8" slices taken off the blank on the table saw.

Third picture is the band saw set up to split the slices into two top bars.

Fourth is a box of 120 narrow top bars ready to cut the dados in.

These operations can be done with a table saw, but you lose two top bars off each 2 x 6 blank if you do.

Peter


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## Mr.Beeman

Here's a pic of one of ours built yesterday.


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## rail

I am building my own Jumbo frames with Dadant's and C.C. Miller's design. These frames are made from Beechwood, cut and shaped with dado blades and cutter heads.

The top bar is 1.125" wide and 7/8" thick!


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## rail

Ripped the end bars and bottom bars 1.125" wide and 1/2" thick. Notched end bars with dado cutter and sled. Simple with basic table saw tooling!


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## westernbeekeeper

Rail, what do you do for spacing your frames?


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## Jim 134

westernbeekeeper said:


> Hello all,
> I would like to learn how to make my own frames. I know that some of you all do make your own, and I am wondering if you would be willing to share the steps and process here. Please post pictures or videos! I am really interested in pics and videos, seeing I have already seen some plans, but have yet to come even close to perfecting the process. The few ones I have made work, but take awhile to make, and are altered slightly for easier "manufacturing" and construction. I'll post some photos as soon as I can. Thanks in advance.


I hope this help you out

Part 1
http://youtu.be/FrK2mG44wpQ

Part 2
http://youtu.be/Avww6M2zlRw



BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## ralittlefield

Jim 134 said:


> I hope this help you out



This guy needs to make some push sticks or he is going to end up with some shorter fingers!


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## rail

westernbeekeeper said:


> Rail, what do you do for spacing your frames?


I will use wooden dowels in the corners of the frames. Can use a staple or hob nail.

Assembled frame and fabricated pieces.


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## westernbeekeeper

Can you post some pics of how the dowels work? I'm interested to see that.


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## rail

westernbeekeeper said:


> Can you post some pics of how the dowels work? I'm interested to see that.


I got the idea from this video, you will see the dowels in the corners of the frames.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14UQjJCWuqk


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## westernbeekeeper

Wow, thanks!


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## DLMKA

I did some price checking at Lowe's on lumber and figured out how many top bars, end bars, and bottom bars I can get out of a board. Looks like I can make a frame for $0.24 in materials vs. $0.75 for buying commercial frames from Dadant. I need to make 350 medium frames, Trying to determine if it's worth my time.


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## rwurster

I make all my frames out of used lumber so they're basically free. Having made many hundreds I can say I'm honestly tired of making them and can't even motivate myself to make any more. If I was in a pinch, sure I'd make them. Short of that I wouldn't even consider it. If you need to make 350, go that extra mile and cut out the parts for 700 or 1000. I can say for myself that it's not worth my time.


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## pom51

I can buy frames for $65.00 per hundred my time is worth a little something like playing with my grand son


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

What if the time you spend, making those frames, is more valuable than the frames you make. 

It's like saying, you can buy fish for $8.00 a pound, why would anyone want to buy a boat and go fishing.

cchoganjr


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## jdmidwest

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> What if the time you spend, making those frames, is more valuable than the frames you make.
> 
> It's like saying, you can buy fish for $8.00 a pound, why would anyone want to buy a boat and go fishing.
> 
> cchoganjr


Because if you buy a boat, you will spend countless hours keeping it up! Bad analogy


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## RichardsonTX

DLMKA.........So if you can cut out 35 frames in an hour you are paying yourself $17.85 per hour. The uniformity of your frame parts will probably not be as consistent as the one's you'll buy from Dadant or a similar supplier (at least mine aren't). But I like making them.........sometimes. I also like making my bottom boards, boxes, and lids.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

jdmidwest said:


> Because if you buy a boat, you will spend countless hours keeping it up! Bad analogy


Please enlighten me, because I don't get it. Spend countless hours keeping it up???

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. It isn't how much fish cost, it's all about how much you enjoy fishing. It isn't about how much frames cost, it is all about the joy and pride of making your own frames.

pom51.... enjoys time with the Grand kids, so he buys his frames, rather than making them. Very understandable. Someone else enjoys making his/her own frames so it doesn't matter how much it cost to make them or how much time it takes. That's all I was saying.

Apparently I struck a nerve. Very Sorry.

cchoganjr


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## psfred

I cut almost 100 end bars from machined blocks tonight in about an hour. Would have taken less time if I'd not also been continuing the rehabilitation of the wonky bandsaw I bought cheap (new guide holder and thrust bearings tonight, made a big difference).

I work slow, since my shop is currently unheated (old furnace quit, haven't got the new one converted to propane and installed), but it took me a couple hours to cut, surface, and slot some 2x6 stock to cut top bars out of and another hour or so to cut them apart. Spent two hours the other night making the blocks for end bars and cutting bottom bars (I used divided bars, so I was sawing 5/16" squares).

So if figure about six hours total on 120 frames. Longest job is the dados on the top bars and cutting the frame wedge, since that's 8 operations per bar. 

Plan on 18 hours or so for making 350 frames, not including assembly time (although that's much faster, especially with a jig). Best way to buy the lumber is 2x10 yellow pine, I think, it's the cheapest and straightest while still being easy to work and nail. Scrap is better, but not if you have to work very hard or drive somewhere to get it. I've been scrounging in the scrap bin at Menard's, nice 24" 2x6 pieces for 29 cents is hard to pass up. Lots of 1x12 cutoffs, too, that work well for medium or shallow boxes at 69 cents each.

Please note that if you don't already have the necessary equipment (table saw, planer, and band saw) making frames or boxes is silly -- I've got nearly two grand in the equipment and tools and you can buy all the hobby beekeeping equipment you will ever need for that! However, since I have them, the use is pretty much free to make frames, and my time would be spent on some other hobby or cleaning house, I'm not turning down real paid work.

I'll post some pictures shortly, got things to do for the next couple days.

Peter


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## DLMKA

pom51, I go to the garage to work on stuff to get AWAY from my kids. Love them dearly but I need some shop time too.

If I hated making or building things I would just pay for fully assembled frames, I have the money to just buy the dang things but I get immense satisfaction in doing things for myself, even if it's just once to say I know how.

Went by Lowe's tonight to get some lumber and on my way in I see a pack of culled 1" pine boards, everything from 1X12X10 to 1X4X8. List price on the whole package was over $300, had it marked at $150. Talked to they guy at the counter and it's been there almost a week, in two days it'll drop to $75 unless someone buys it before then. Now we're talking. Probably enough wood there for 1000 or more frames (minus endbars cut from 2X10 planed down to 1.375".

I bought a tablesaw a little over a month ago off Craigslist for $100. Bought a dado stack and freud all purpose blade. Already made 35 supers and 6 screened bottom boards.


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## odfrank

>Longest job is the dados on the top bars and cutting the frame wedge, since that's 8 operations per bar.

who needs a frame wedge? I have been using GTB's and GBB's for decades. Dislike frame wedges.


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## pom51

don't get me wrong I make all of the boxes and top and bottoms for I have access to cypress lumber at a very good price. just like to keep all my fingers away from fast moving saw blades. I have all the equipment to make the frames but would better spend my time,making splits or other hive components


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## jdmidwest

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Please enlighten me, because I don't get it. Spend countless hours keeping it up???
> 
> Maybe I didn't make myself clear. It isn't how much fish cost, it's all about how much you enjoy fishing. It isn't about how much frames cost, it is all about the joy and pride of making your own frames.
> 
> pom51.... enjoys time with the Grand kids, so he buys his frames, rather than making them. Very understandable. Someone else enjoys making his/her own frames so it doesn't matter how much it cost to make them or how much time it takes. That's all I was saying.
> 
> Apparently I struck a nerve. Very Sorry.
> 
> cchoganjr


I have wasted countless hours working on my boats and my friends boats, have gotten to the river and boats have failed to start, tore boats up, and many other failures. It has ended up with many lost fishing hours. We could have sit on the bank and fished, and would have more fishing time.

It was just a bad analogy based on my personal experience with boats. They require more time to maintain than they gain in fishing time.


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## tommyt

jdmidwest said:


> I
> 
> It was just a bad analogy based on my personal experience with boats. *They require more time to maintain than they gain in fishing time*.


Sounds like a bayliner owner 
If you own a decent boat 
You'll enjoy many hours of great fishin 

Cleo I like your post


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

jdmidwest said:


> It was just a bad analogy based on my personal experience with boats. They require more time to maintain than they gain in fishing time.


jdmidwest. others.. I understand. Thanks. Fortunately that wasn't my experience. I fished the U.S. Bass Pro Team Tournament Trail for about 5 years, and of course a boat was a necessity. In my post I was referring to the joy of fishing. The Pro Trail paid a little, depending on where you place in each Lake Event, but, it wasn't the money, it was the thrill of fishing, friends I met along the way, and I made most of my fishing lures.. I doubt I could have ever won enough to pay for the boat and gear, much less motel, gas, meals etc. But, it wasn't about how much I could save.. 

Same thing with making bee equipment. Some people get as much, if not more satisfaction, out of making their own equipment, as they do actually taking care of their bees. For these people, the thrill of making it themselves, is the thrill. Not how much time it takes, or how much they can save by just buying it. For those without the proper equipment, or who have other things to do, it is more advantageous for them to buy it. I always tell everyone, do whatever works for you. BIG difference between hobbyist and commercial also.

I am going to back out of this thread. I apologize for straying from the basic intent of this thread, which was a question by Westernbeekeepr. He wanted to know if you make your own frames, and show him how you do it. Unfortunately I responded to questioning as to whether or not a person should make their own frames, or, just buy them.

Thanks again. Happy Bee Keeping.

cchoganjr


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## rwurster

I went to a 4-H style frame for my medium boxes where the only machining done is on the top bar. Your end bars are basically a rectangle and the bottom bar (which is at least 1/2" thick) can be fastened to the bottom of the end bars or between them. It drastically cuts down on machine time and I still just can't find it in my heart to make frames anymore, just too many hives/frames to deal with for me even during the winter. I made the bottom bars thicker so I could run a kerf down the center of them and they would still have enough material below the kerf not to split when i thump honey supers. Boxes I'll make all day long no big deal.


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## beeman2009

rwurster said:


> I went to a 4-H style frame for my medium boxes where the only machining done is on the top bar. Your end bars are basically a rectangle and the bottom bar (which is at least 1/2" thick) can be fastened to the bottom of the end bars or between them. It drastically cuts down on machine time and I still just can't find it in my heart to make frames anymore, just too many hives/frames to deal with for me even during the winter. I made the bottom bars thicker so I could run a kerf down the center of them and they would still have enough material below the kerf not to split when i thump honey supers. Boxes I'll make all day long no big deal.


What is a 4 H style frame? Could you post some photos?

Thanks


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## psfred

I like having the wires trapped under a wedge and nailed down -- we can get quite hot weather here in the late spring and some of my friends have had trouble with foundation warping badly. Of course, if you cross-wire as I have started doing, this is much less of an issue.

Grooved top and bottom bars are faster, for sure. Only seven steps for the top bar that way (not counting cutting them from 2x6s and splitting them).

Lots of fun, an excuse to work out in the shop, which I like. Did 120 end bars the other night, the new bandsaw is working pretty well now that I've got new thrust bearings, filed out the throat plate so the blade doesn't drag on it, and "modified" the back top cover to allow the axle to move up enough to tension the blade.

Now I need to make a drill jig to drill the end bars, buy the eyelets to put in, and finish the top bars, then make an assembly jig and get frames put together -- I'll be needing nuc boxes by late March.

Peter

Peter


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## Tarheelbilly

I've enjoyed reading this thread, I have been contemplating making frames too. I have made dozens of bodies I guess tomorrow I'll be hacking up some scrap that I've saved for just such purpose! Good to see both sides of the conversation.


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## jmgi

I'm going to slowly transition over to narrow 1 1/4" frames in all my hives, and I'm going to make them myself until I can't stand it anymore. So I went out to the shop and started making a jig for cutting the end bar notches in the top bar. It's going to be time consuming at first, but I want to make jigs for doing all the cuts needed for the frame parts, in the end it should be a time saver not having to readjust the fence continuously. John


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## kilocharlie

Ben - My first comment is make a frame jig, as it keeps your hands away from the staples. Other comments ... Don't waste your time with plywood - it won't last. Mass-produce the profile of a part with the most detail to it, then slice them apart. This will save you more time than most other concepts. Make blocks in easily-managed sizes, mark the same side on each (same side as went against the gate or down on the tablesaw, etc.) Bounce flawed or non-conforming parts out of the production cycle as early as possible - further work on bad parts is an avoidable waste of time and wear on the machines. Glue and staple the joints - it really help[s if these frames are strong. I make mine non-standard, extra thick (5/8" side and bottom bars) as I get fewer staples blowing out the sides and VERY strong joints and frames. Laminate your blueprints and mark your master parts in bright pink or orange.

My other concern is - Are you building commercial frames or hobbyist frames? Most commercial guys are using wood frames with plastic foundation - no wedge strips.


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## psfred

I do the top bar side cuts at one depth setting of the dado blade, then set it for the bottom cut and run them through again, one at a time. I don't think a sliding box for more than one frame saves much time on a 1/16" deep cut. No need to move the fence between cuts, and the last batch I ran through was 120 top bars. Doesn't take long.

I make top bars from 2x6 material -- run through the planer to get flat, parallel sides (just enough so they run on the fence well, no more), then cut to length and cut the 10 degree slanted cut on both sides of each end. Best to run a large pile of blanks. I then cut them lengthwise to width, then split them on the bandsaw. Next time, I'm going to cut out the part between the angled cuts with a dado blade, saves having bits fly out of the saw when cutting the dado.

The best way to get decent frames is to select yellow pine 2x6 or 2x8 or 2x10 boards, looking for minimal knots, as flat as possible, and whatever length gets you the best ones. You will always find some defects hidden in the interior -- make extras and do not hesitate to toss less than perfect parts as they arise. Much better to make a few extra top bars than have one that breaks when you try to remove it from the hive next year.

Design is up to you. I prefer, at the moment, wedge type top bars, but you can make whatever you want.

Peter


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## jmgi

psfred, how do you make the 10 degree cut on the bottom of the top bar end? I was thinking a bandsaw maybe with some sort of jig to guide the top bar on the right angle. John


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

jmgi.... You can use a miter saw if you have it. If you do, you will want to raise the table (clamp a 2 X 4 ) so the end of the top bar will cut at the point that the miter blade is widest when you bring it down.. You can also make a jig (to keep your fingers away from the blade) and cut on a table saw. Hope that makes sense.

cchoganjr


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## jmgi

Cleo, having a hard time picturing what you mean, unless you are cutting the angled piece off the top bar completely, leaving a small part of the cut on the other side of where the end bar goes. I think I would rather do it with the miter saw than make a jig for the table saw. John


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

jmgi..I'm having a hard time picturing it myself. Ha!! See if this will help. Run the first cut on the underside of the top bar (at each end) on a dado blade. (Same one used to make box joints.) Then use the miter saw to cut the slope by cutting from the end of the top bar. Since a miter saw cuts comming down, to make a straight cut, I have to extend a table out from the normal dado fence so the blade cuts at the widest point of the blade radial. At that point, the cut will be square.

Yes, the miter is better than a table saw for this cut.

cchoganjr


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## minz

I push my 2x6 into the jointer (2x at 1/16” cuts) makes the edge just like the factory. Gives me the correct spacing and a pretty arc at the top.


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## psfred

Tilt the table saw to 10 degrees, set the fence so that the slant is 3/8" at 3/8" from the end and run the end grain side down the fence with the length vertical. If you have a pile of 19" blocks ready to go, takes about 15 sec per side on my (slow) saw. I cut both sides because I'm going to cut the bars to width on the bandsaw, then split each slice, making two from each slice. I get 10 standard width top bars or 12 narrow top bars from each piece of 2x6, I think 12 and 14 or 16 from a 2x8, I don't remember.

Watch that you don't have any fingers near the end, obviously. At any rate, this is safer than attempting to cut the angle later unless you use a "boat", and then it's a hassle -- one cut on the 2x6 or 2x8 cuts five or six at the same time.

This is why I plane them all to have a big enough flat that's parallel on each side, so they slide down the fence square and I only have to set the band saw once to cut them all the same thickness.

I suppose if you had a shaper and wanted to make a cutter for it, you could cut a slot out with the correct angle top and bottom. Lots of ways to skin that cat.

The nice thing about cutting the blanks the way I do is that the fiddly stuff is all done when the piece is large and easy to handle safely. 

Peter


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## RichardsonTX

Its really interesting reading about how people make their frame parts in so many different ways.

I build my own frames sometimes but the part I do not like is putting the holes in the side bars. I'd like to see comments on what other people are doing.


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## My-smokepole

I saw a youtube where someone in eastern europe had made a drilling rig. To do them all at once. Baseilly It was two or there drill heads mounted up to a peice of steel with a rail. He took the finish frame pushed it against the drills. Work real nice. to the point I am thinking about building one. 
David


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## psfred

A gang drill would be nice, but way too much work for the few I make (compared to Kelley's, for instance).

Make a drill jig. Mine will be a piece of scrap long enough for the longest end bar I use with a pocket made of 3/4" scrap glued and nailed into an L shape. Over that goes a thin (3/8") piece of plywood or other thin wood, with holes very carefully drilled square and straight in the spots where they go in the end bars. Tuck a pair of end bars stacked on each other into the pocket, and use the holes in the thin piece on top to line up the drill. Zip, zip, zip, zip, two end bars drilled.

This way the wires will all be in the same plane and the holes will be straight. You can also use metal with proper drill bushings if you want to go to that much effort. It will last much longer and drill straighter, but requires metalworking equpiment to make. 

You can drill all the different length end bars on the same jig, just make sure you have them aligned correctly when you put them in. 

Actually spacing of the holes isn't a big deal, but they must be exactly on the centerline. Otherwise, when you embed the wires the foundation will be off to one side.

Peter


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## Daniel Y

Just a bit of FYI on drill bits. The standard twist drill bit is engineered to drill a hole three times the depth of it's diameter. So a 1/8th diameter drill bit should drill a 3/8 inch hole with no problem in a single pass. If you need to drill further than that you need to use some other drilling methods. In this case what is called "Pecking" You drill about 3/8th of an inch pull the bit back out of the hole let the sawdust clear out of the flutes and then drill again. If you do not you will be over heating your bit and causing damage. You will not always be able to see the damage but it will result in a drill bit that dulls prematurely, over heats and swells so it is actually drilling a slightly over size hole or will cause excessive tear out. not a huge deal for things like end bars but still nice to know.

Since 1 end bar is about 1/4 inch thick drilling one would be no problem. but stacking two puts you over that 3/8th depth by 1/8th inch. Most decent quality drill bits will still handle this fine. but if you start stacking them 4,5 or more thick you are going to have to pay attention to this issue. There are other drill bit designs such as auger bits or bits with deeper flutes that address this deeper hole in one pass issue.

Anyway I thought this might help some of you trying to get these made and drilling multiple end bars at once. Picking a better tool might help you get the results you are looking for.


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## jmgi

Cleo, I had to sleep on it all night to figure out what you meant, but I finally got it! John


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

jmgi...That is good. Sometimes it takes me a whole week. 

Any time you figure out what I said, let me know, so I can figure it out.

cchoganjr


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## kilocharlie

Richardson, smokepole, and Daniel Y - the holes in the sides are for wires. Plastic foundation in wood frames rocks!

If you are brain-bent on drilling, adding rivets, wiring, and letting the wax moths eat all your work, just make sure the holes line up with the slots in the bottom and top bars. I used to make a jig for that - it had nails that found the slots in the bottom bar and the wedge strip cut-out (rabbet) in the top bar from the inside of the frame, wrapped around the side bar and made a straight edge on the outside of the side bar for tracing the line. Another tool had marker stops to space the holes along the scribed lines. I'd then starter punch each resulting + mark and drill them.
That was when I was a newbie and had to ask things like, "Do the frames go in the long way or the short way?" (I never bought a box nor a frame - just made them all myself) Now I just drop a plastic and wax sheet into the frame and let them draw out the comb. ;-)

Daniel - people drill way deeper than that (3x the diameter) in wood (and quite accurately, thank you) all day long every day. Peck drilling is recommended when clearing the chips is needed, such as deep hole drilling steel, aluminum, and sometimes hardwood. Also, I'd suggest making your side bars thicker than 1/4". Your frames will stay more square, will last a lot longer, will take nails better, will have more gluing surface. Try 7/16" thick...I pull that off without trimming foundation most of the time.


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## westernbeekeeper

Well folks, due to your help, I think I've figured it out. See photos below:


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## beeman2009

WB,

They say a picture is worth a 1000 words. Make a video of the start to finish process, if you can, time is precious. That would help some of us a lot. Also may make you famous. :applause: :banana:


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Nice, Very nice. Photos say it all.

cchoganjr


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## rwurster

Nice.


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## Barry

Daniel Y said:


> Picking a better tool might help you get the results you are looking for.


Or just toss the 1/8" bit away after it gets dull (2000 end bars later) and drop another $1 for a new one.


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## ralittlefield

Nice job on the fames, Ben! Really nice!


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## westernbeekeeper

Thanks everyone; I loved doing it, and hope to do a lot more in the future. It's actually really mostly you guys' fault that they turned out, since y'all gave me all the tips, pics, and advice. Thanks a billion! Yes, I'll try to make a video as soon as I refine and streamline the process.


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## Major

Very nice frame Ben I made some myself earlier this year. I know this may sound like a dumb question but why on the top bars outside of the end bars do all commercial frames and the ones that Ben has built do they taper down. What is the reason for this, I'm sure there is a good reason why not just leave them flat. Please someone educate me on this. Ben once again nice job.
Major


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## westernbeekeeper

Major said:


> why on the top bars outside of the end bars do all commercial frames and the ones that Ben has built do they taper down. What is the reason for this, I'm sure there is a good reason why not just leave them flat. Please someone educate me on this.


Not a dumb question at all. I wonder the same thing. I built them that way because pretty much all the frames I've seen have the frame ears tapered like that. Some light on exactly why would be appreciated. Thanks Major!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Allegedly helps to keep the top bars from getting glued down by the bees. I say allegedly, because, I don't know that I ever saw any data on it.

Is Michael Bush on here tonight.

cchoganjr


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## Daniel Y

Nice job on the frames. As for the taper. I also understand it has to do with them getting glued in by the bees. What I do know is that it woudl prevent full surface contact between the frame end and the frame rest. Maybe a moisture issue???


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## jmgi

I don't really see the necessity of a tapered top bar end, only 3/8" at most of the top bar sits on the frame rest, so the slight taper that the top bars have wouldn't even come into play, in that short of a distance (3/8") the top bar is going to come into complete contact with the frame rest anyway, so it would not help in keeping the bars from getting glued down any less in my opinion. There must be a reason for it, does anyone know if these tapers where put on frames decades ago, or is it a more modern thing? John


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## Daniel Y

John, I suppose you could make some flat ones and find out if there is any reason.
looking at photos of frames from the 1800's I don't see a taper.


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## jmgi

Daniel Y, it could be one of those things that was introduced years ago, and everyone forgot the reason why. Here's something I just though of though, what if the taper was added to lower the frame slightly so that the bee space between the top of the frame and the bottom bars of the frames above was kept correct? If you just cut a straight cut 3/8" across without a taper, then that would mean your side bars would not have as much depth in the notch (the notch that the top bar inserts into) and that would not be as strong of a joint. So by increasing the depth of that notch (which they did) about 1/8" then the top bar could be about 1/2"(which it is) thick at the point where it meets the side bar, and then the top bar could be tapered down to 3/8"(which it is) to give you a stronger frame that still keeps the bee space intact. We have to agree that the frame we use in the Lang hive took a bit of figuring out when it was first designed, and as far as I know it has remained virtually unchanged for many, many years. Because frames are frequently manipulated, they have to be as strong as possible in all the joints to not fall apart in a couple months, so much thought has gone into their design. John


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

jmgi others.. Looking closely at the cut and the side bar joint, to the top bar, It may very well be a strength issue. That taper would give a slightly larger area for glue and nail where the end bar joins the top bar.

cchoganjr


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## psfred

I suppose that the taper is to keep the bees from gluing the bars down so badly. It also give more space if you are using the old style 7/8" rabbet and folded metal rests, and the bees can get under the bars that way. Don't know if that is a new idea, but it does keep small hive beetles from hiding there.

I made mine to pretty much match commercial ones, which have tapered ends. The point about more strength is well taken, of course.

The cut on the side bars so they are not in contact their full length is for the same reason -- the bees won't glue them together if they are 1/4" apart. I made some full length mediums last year and didn't have trouble getting them apart, but I'm going to cut all them this year. Somehow I forgot I had a jointer sitting right next to the table saw....

Peter


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## Joseph Clemens

westernbeekeeper said:


> Well folks, due to your help, I think I've figured it out. See photos below:
> 
> View attachment 4016


When I make my own frames I have chosen to eliminate the weakness illustrated in your photo in the above quote. I do not cut a dado in the bottom of my End Bars, I cut my Bottom Bars short enough so they fit between the inner sides of my End Bars. I glue and nail (staple) the Bottom Bars in place. This makes for much stronger frames, where the Bottom Bars are highly unlikely to ever pull off.

I also choose not to taper my End Bars, they are straight, rectangular in shape. I find that tapered End Bars kill bees, catching them in the angle formed by the taper as frames are slid back into place, similar to a guillotine.


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## westernbeekeeper

Thanks, Joseph; that's a great tip. One less cut to make. I'm gonna start doing that. Thanks again!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Joseph Clemens said:


> When I make my own frames I have chosen to eliminate the weakness illustrated in your photo in the above quote. I do not cut a dado in the bottom of my End Bars, I cut my Bottom Bars short enough so they fit between the inner sides of my End Bars. I glue and nail (staple) the Bottom Bars in place. This makes for much stronger frames, where the Bottom Bars are highly unlikely to ever pull offQUOTE]
> 
> Joseph Clemens.... Just asking for clairification... AND..I AM NOT a physics major. (and I don't play one on TV either HA!!) Why would his joint be the weakness illustrated in the photo and how could the joint you describe make a much stronger frame. His method has three sides for glue and staples into the end bar, your method only has the end of your bottom bar against the side bars. Only 1 point of surface for glue and stapes.
> 
> Please don't be offended, I would just like to understand. I just don't really see how your joint would be better. Obviously it eliminates one saw step, but here we were talking about strength.
> 
> cchoganjr


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## rwurster

Joseph Clemens said:


> I cut my Bottom Bars short enough so they fit between the inner sides of my End Bars. I glue and nail (staple) the Bottom Bars in place. ... I also choose not to taper my End Bars, they are straight, rectangular in shape.


Ditto all that I do the same, cuts production time. I also make my bottom bars thicker to keep them from blowing out when thumping honey boxes.


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## psfred

Notched bottom and end bars with the nails driven at a 45 degree angle will be stronger than a butt joint. Thicker bottom bars are stronger than thin ones, but we don't have any trouble with standard divided bottom bars, at least so far. Most times the comb is strong enough to hold things together in normal use, but then we aren't exactly a giant operation, so I can't say how well my design (a copy of standard divided bottom bars) would be in commercial use.

So long as the bottom bar does not split, nailed butt joints will work fine. The that bar splits around the nail, though, it won't hold any better than any other design.

Peter


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## Joseph Clemens

psfred,

Bottom Bars, when set into the dado's/notches cut into the bottoms of the End Bars to accept them (like a socket), has been one of the few joints in frames that seem to regularly fail no matter how securely I glue/fasten them to those holes cut for them in the bottoms of End Bars. I've glued them on all three sides and at the same time toe-nailed/stapled them as well as sometimes even nailing/stapling through from one End Bar leg through the Bottom Bar and into the other End Bar leg, still they've sometimes failed. I believe that the fasteners used here, weaken the joints. When the bees glue the Bottom Bars to the Top Bars of the frames below, that is a powerful bond, that doesn't always give, when prying, before the End Bar/Bottom Bar joint fails. I haven't had one of these butt jointed End Bar/Bottom Bar connections fail, yet. However, I do expect that some of them will eventually fail. It puts an awful lot of stress on those joints when prying up frames whose Bottom Bars are affixed to the Top Bars below.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

psfred... Do you use foundation or do you let the bees build their own. 

When using foundation, the bees tend to attach all the way down the sides and across the bottom bars, and as you said, the comb is strong enough to hold everything together. Without foundation, I find that they tie the comb sometimes in the center, sometimes 1/2 way down the sides, but rarely all the way down the sides and across bottom, as they do with foundation. This also helps to strengthen what ever joint is used. 

I use the standard 2 dado cut, divided bottom bar, separation hasn't been a problem. If a problem is observed it may also be a result of bee space not being correct. 

cchoganjr


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## psfred

Well, I'm not going to argue with someone else's experience, and if that butt joint works for you, go for it. The bottom bar joint is weak, that's for sure, with most of the wood missing from the end bar when you cut notches in it.

I have not yet had the frames stick together badly between boxes. Some burr comb between Kelley deeps, but that's because, I think, that there is too much space between them, almost half an inch. Don't know why, but their frames are not a good match for the boxes like all the other sizes are. If you don't have enough bee space, though, and the bees propilize them together, I'd expect divided bars to pull out on a regular basis.

I do use foundation in the main -- I like to put two foundationless frames per brood box for drones. Once the combs have been in use a while they are pretty strong (but don't drop a frozen one without cross wires!). 

I don't remember what my Granpa used.

Peter


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## kilocharlie

Peter - If you're into accurate, repeatable setups...you could cut a tang hanging down in the bottom bar notch of the side bar to fill the gap due to the slot in the bottom bar. That is a tall order to make it fit repeatably, though, and cutting a shim piece to glue and fill after the frame is assembled may not add all that much strength, and would take a forbidding amount of time. The kind of task a machinist calls "government work".

Meanwhile, back in the real world, I like douglas fir for my top and side bars, and 1/2" x 5/8" oak for my bottom bars, and just shoot the staple through and hope it does not explode. A 7/16" thick side bar tends to hold up to the stapling, have enough glue area, and render good stiffness and strength. Paying attention to the end grain on the side bars - that it is knotless, not crooked nor wavy - usually makes staples go in well. The ones that have undesirable grain go into the "research" pile (foundationless, special frames, next size down, firewood, etc.).


----------



## psfred

Doug Fir and yellow pine both work well for top bars, but the yellow pine is prone to cracking when nailed through to the top bar from the side, at least the stuff I have. Both machine better than softer pines, but the need for being able to nail it to the top bar keeps me using the softer "white" pine 2x6s for now.

Any profile is easy to make if you have a shaper, the ability to make cutters, and lots of pieces to cut. I try to keep the variations and complexity to a minimum since I'm using a table saw and band saw. That means no fancy cuts where I'd have to run something through several set-ups (for instance, a groove to shorten the "tang" to fit a grooved bottom bar followed by two more cuts). Takes too long, too much fiddling, and all for three or four pieces.

I cut two 5/16" by 5/16" slots in the bottom of the block I cut end bars from, leaving 1/8" or a bit less in the center. Leaves space for the foundation to fit between the two parts of the divided bottom bar, but one could also cut the reverse on the end of a large block and cut grooved bottom bars to fit as well.

Great fun -- have my frame assembly jig laid out, will finish it tomorrow, I think.

Peter


----------



## kilocharlie

Yes, it seems to depend on how dry / brittle the yellow pine is, fastener guage size is important, and Yellow pine does crack if the grain is very fine and very dry. Doug fir is stronger, but gets awfully hard as it ages, so get some that is fresh cut. Agree fully about machining custom cutters and getting all the complex shapes and dimensions right in the most detailed profile formed at once in manageable slugs, then slicing them apart. No other way to do it or you're wasting too much time.

Good luck on the frame jig - I would hate to make frames without the gluing /stapling jig! Makes it all worth while. My next one will be bigger - I'm thinking 50 at a time, but the glue drying is the limiting factor, so may stick to 30. A gang brush for the glue may make it work, though, as will a mist water sprayer to keep the glue from drying out too fast.


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## westernbeekeeper

Well, I've perfected the process of manufacturing frames, and I don't think I can make the design any better than it is now. I cranked out several dozen this past Saturday, and I couldn't be more pleased. Thanks for everything so far, everyone. I can make frames for about $0.23 apeice (mostly recycled wood, of which I have a pretty much unlimited supply), not counting my time, and the time factor depends on how many I make at a time, which can be a pretty large amount. Here are some photos:









Joseph's recommendation for butt-joint bottom bars worked well for me:
















Instead of using a saw to neck down the endbars, I did it on the router. It turned out excellent. I think it looks better and more professional . Pics below:








Also thought the top bar/end bar joints turned out well too:


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## psfred

Those look pretty good!

I've got my end bars drilled and tapered -- used the jointer set to cut 1/8", don't know why I made all those frames last year with straight sides, my jointer sits right beside the table saw!

I'll be bringing up the parts to the house tonight, it's way too cold to work in the garage (less than 20F outside and no heat out there) to put them together. 

I've got about 100 to put together for the three hives I want to start this year, plus a bunch for honey supers (50 at least).

Peter


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## westernbeekeeper

Thanks, Peter!


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## psfred

Finished my jig after dinner and made 22 frames tonight -- man that jig sure is nice, even the rough one I made where some of my end bars don't fit well!

Now if I can just learn to nail properly all will be well!

Peter


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## westernbeekeeper

Peter, would you mind posting photos of your jig? I love seeing the ways different folks do stuff.


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## beeman2009

Not sure if this will help anyone. I just stumbled on this link to plans for frames. Might be worth a look.

Westernbeekeeper, great job! 

http://www.beeclass.com/dts/beeequipment.htm#Building


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## kilocharlie

Western Ben - In the second photo, it looks like you may have made a rabbet joint rather than a butt-joint on those bottom bar-to-side bar joints. Did you cut a rabbet in the bottom of the side bars? That is probably a stronger joint than the one I'm using because the staple is going sideways, not vertical. I will make a few, calculate gluing areas, and run some destruction tests. Why didn't I think of that? I wonder what else this will lead to....stronger frames are a good thing....maybe frames that kill wax moth larvae, or a built-in beetle trap? Thank you for causing me to question everything!

P.S. It appears that your'e doing excellent work.

Peter - The frame jig does make one appreciate good accuracy and size-repeatability. Isn't the frame assembly jig right up there with the bellows smoker, foundation wax, and the honey extractor, as far as beekeeping inventions go? I put it up there close, if not equal.


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## westernbeekeeper

kilocharlie said:


> In the second photo, it looks like you may have made a rabbet joint rather than a butt-joint on those bottom bar-to-side bar joints. Did you cut a rabbet in the bottom of the side bars?


Nope, just a butt joint.


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## westernbeekeeper

Hey folks,
Check out my new thread on making frames. It's a photo tutorial. Here's the link: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?277747-How-To-Make-Your-Own-Frames-Photo-Tutorial


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## SeaCucumber

There are 2 steps common to making every frame part:
1. Make cuts for multiple parts.
2. Rip cut to make individual parts.

Factories have special saws that quickly rip cut multiple pieces, and have a feeding mechanism (like on a planer). Now that I think about it, it might not be that expensive to build a saw with many blades that cuts many pieces. 

Another option is to automate the rip cutting. I would use a stepper motor and ball screw for the motion perpendicular to the saw blade. I would use a wood rack and pinion and a regular motor for the cutting motion. Inductive limit switches make sense. One robot could do all the rip cuts, but I would still prefer to build a multiple blade saw if its not too expensive.


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