# AZ / Slovenian Hive Dimensions



## NorthMaine (Oct 27, 2016)

Are there any real 'standard' AZ/Slovenian hives out there? I have been searching and can't find any that have standard dimensions.

But the original European hive is not my real concern, what I really would like is one that is compatible with a Langstroth frame as close as possible so that if you wanted you could take a frame and insert it into a Lang.

But since the hive dimensions are really determined by the frame size, I went to a couple places and purchased frames for 'AZ' hives, and uh, they don't match up. Some have a cove cut on the top/bottom bars that is 3/8", some that is 3/16" (imagine this one will be bit of a problem). Length and height are also a problem between these frames. 

So, I gave up and went back to the standard frames of 9 1/8" tall and 17 3/4" without the tabs and decided to work from there. Trying to keep the frames the same size as a standard Lang frame for interchangeability, I have been trying to crunch the numbers and came up with this idea. Please shoot me down as I am sure I am missing something. 

If we make the top/bottom bars 3/4" tall by 1" by 16 7/8" wide square pieces and then end bars at 1" by 9 1/8" by 3/8" with no fancy cuts at the end, just simple square cuts. Take the top/bottom bars and cut a 3/8" deep groove in the middle of the 1" dimension on top and bottom bars to insert the foundation into. Now assemble the frame with the grooves to the center and install the foundation making sure to only pin nail the frame on the edges of the end bars, not the centers as we will be cutting this later. This will create a frame without tabs that is the same size as the Lang frame that is only missing the cove cut on the top and bottom. After the glue has dried, run that frame through the router table with a cove bit to cut the 3/8" deep round groove in the top and bottom. Since the foundation is already installed, if it sticks through the top or bottom the cove bit will 'weld' the foundation to the frame. Since bee space is 1/4-3/8", that cove cut could be just a tad shallow at 5/16" and leave just a tad bit of wood left to hold the foundation till it's glued in by the bees. Alternatively, make the grooves a bit shallow and run a plane down the foundation edge to take a hair off before installing it. If the foundation doesn't want to stay afterwards, put a pin nail through the wooden frame to hold it in the groove. Basically we created a groove top/groove bottom frame.

Now for the interchange part. When you take one of these frames out and want to put it in a Lang hive, take a 3/8"x19" dowel and zip tie it to the top of the frame and run a strip of tape along the top/bottom to close off the cove cut so it won't be filled in by the bees. To switch back, cut the zip ties and peel the tape off to remove the dowel. If you want, you could put a thumb tack on the frame sides to mimic the Hoffman end bar. 

Yes, I know cutting the cove will essentially cut the top/bottom bars in half, but they will be held together by the end bar's staples and glue. The weight of the frame is supported through the plastic foundation throughout the frame since it's sitting on the bottom bar, which is pushing up on the foundation, which is pushing up to the top bar (and glued to the end bars by the bees by the time there is significant weight in it). While cutting the cove cut, the plastic foundation may 'foul' the cut, so I would recommend shaving the foundation a pass with a hand plane but I haven't tried this yet. 

A different top/bottom bar could be made for wax foundation with a shallower cut allowing it to stay as a single piece or just wax in the foundation into the groove, or a different cut for a foundation-less frame (possibly a triangular inside cut which shouldn't be hard since the piece is just a simple cut needing the corners knocked off).

To swap frames the other way, one could cut/break the tabs off a Lang frame, but this still leaves the ears on the end bars to squish bees on insertion (and no groove on top/bottom), so I suspect the only solution would be cutting the comb from the frame and reinserting it into a new frame. 

But since I don't see any 'standard' AZ/Slovenian dimensions, this will be a real pain to try to provide AZ style nucs to newer beekeepers so that we could get people to accept this style of hive. If they have taller frames, they could get by with a shim for the top or bottom of the frame, but if they have shorter than us, then they couldn't get a nuc. 

Ok, feel free to cut me down. My feelings won't be hurt even if out in left field. Please skip the 'stick with the standard Lang' though as I do have lots of those already and am just trying to expand in a different area.


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## Hobo (Mar 4, 2014)

The Drebbieville hive is built to Langstroth dimensions:

https://www.thebeeshop.com/AZ-Slovenian-hive-p/hive-01.htm


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## NorthMaine (Oct 27, 2016)

Do you have one of these hives? What are the dimensions of his frame? Understanding also that he passed away?


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## Hobo (Mar 4, 2014)

No, do not have one of these hives but I have seen one. Mr. Drebber brought one to a bee meeting and explained how it works. My understanding is that his daughter is carrying on the business.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

His granddaughter is carrying on the business, which already had a business partner. They also have a distributorship program in place as well. One of the guys in my area is the distributor for part of the east coast. Don't think he goes all the way up to Maine though.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

There's a .pdf available of the Alberti Hive plans (the 'A' in A-Z) at:
http://www.imkerhomepage.de/die_imkerei/die_normbeute/Normbeute-52-TGL-11407.pdf

LJ


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

Bringing this thread back to life as I am thinking about winter projects. I came across plans and a link to a Langstroth Slovenian AZ hive being old. I'm thinking about purchasing one so I can reverse engineer it. Just not sure I want to commit to the undertaking as I have plenty of winter projects already. 

Just thought I'd share as these are the 1st set of detailed plans I came across. 



https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c527019c3c16a7a781a9b96/t/5d255e659b25a800015b93eb/1562730087581/33+Frame+AZ+Lang+.75+lumber.pdf





bee hive entrances for sale - Google Shopping


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

AAIndigo said:


> Bringing this thread back to life as I am thinking about winter projects. I came across plans and a link to a Langstroth Slovenian AZ hive being old. I'm thinking about purchasing one so I can reverse engineer it. Just not sure I want to commit to the undertaking as I have plenty of winter projects already.
> 
> Just thought I'd share as these are the 1st set of detailed plans I came across.
> 
> ...



So from the original post, IMO just make a AZ with "Lang" dimensions. why the hassel of cutting off the ends then adding a dowel.
Also
this quote, although dated...
But since I don't see any 'standard' AZ/Slovenian dimensions, this will be a real pain to try to provide AZ style nucs to newer beekeepers so that we could get people to accept this style of hive. If they have taller frames, they could get by with a shim for the top or bottom of the frame, but if they have shorter than us, then they couldn't get a nuc. 

I have yet to see a market for AZ NUCS.
can always do the package route to get started.

GG


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## Verify (Jul 11, 2014)

Use google translate, will do pretty good when translating to English https://czs.si/content/D11, metric system is metric and mesurments are in millimeters. Most importatnt thing is ram size, which is 410 x 260 (outer size). Upper and lower bars are 15x25x395 left and right bars are 7.5x25x26 mm. Ram + space = 37.5mm => 9 rams hive is 9x37.5mm in width.

Truth is... every beekeeper claims that his mesurments are the _(correct)_ ones 

My hive heights from top to bottom:

Wall tickness is 20mm
Space above rams is 6mm
Rams are 260mm
Ram holder is 8mm
Queen excluder takes additional 4mm (Ram holder + Queen excluder - lower point takes 12mm)
Space above rams is 6mm
Rams are 260 mm
Ram holder is 8mm
Space below including ram holder is 60mm (standard hives have 20mm)
Wall tickness 20mm
Lower part is brood chamber upper part is honey chamger.

*Do not use 3 level AŽ hives* if you are not familliar with AŽ hives, standard is 9 rams 2lvl hive. I do perfer 11+3 over standard hives. This mean 2lvl 11 ram hive which can be increased in each level for about 3 rams from 22 rams to 28 (or any in between) when needed (3lvl hive has 27 rams).

3lvl AŽ hives require different approach and experienced beekeepers. It can give way more but in most cases gives way less (wrong handling)!

This is 11+3 hive "in action", It has to have a lot of beeas to get results in 2nd image (not same hive). On 2nd image you can seee combs "+3, this mean added behind as additional honney storage and you can see that coms are full of honey"
















If there is interest I can tutor, demo complete season of beekeeping in AŽ 11+3 or 3lvl hives.



Kind regards.


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## Verify (Jul 11, 2014)

I forgot to add

Relax, *every AŽ hive in Slovenia use same rams 410x260x25mm*.

I would add this as well, Isn't matter if hive is 3mm bigger, smaller or deeper it has to be big enough for good seasons and small as well for very bad ones.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Verify said:


> Use google translate, will do pretty good when translating to English https://czs.si/content/D11, metric system is metric and mesurments are in millimeters. Most importatnt thing is ram size, which is 410 x 260 (outer size). Upper and lower bars are 15x25x395 left and right bars are 7.5x25x26 mm. Ram + space = 37.5mm => 9 rams hive is 9x37.5mm in width.
> 
> Truth is... every beekeeper claims that his mesurments are the _(correct)_ ones
> 
> ...


Nice Pictures Verify,

do you have some to share of the hive "empty" IE with out any comb in?
I would like to see the entrance and any ventilation holes.

Do you use dummy frames to over winter NUCs?

Do you do mid season extraction?

thank you
GG


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## ambee (Jan 8, 2021)

Here is an 8 frame 3-level I built that uses Langstroth frames. Could expand to 4 level. Each level can be isolated via a 1/4 plywood separator. Currently the plan is to include a top feeder via the 1/4 plywood separator. I designed a screened bottom that is removable and can be opened allow mites to drop out. The second level has a queen excluder made by using #5 stainless mesh that can be moved down to the first level is desired. . We will see how it all works later this year. The frame supports are .5" aluminum tube. the 1/4" ply is held by aluminum channel. The screens are held in via quick release push pin latches. Just press the red button to release the latch. Push the pin in to re-seat.The internal dimensions between the removable screens are the same as a std inside of a Langstroth hive. I used a half 3/4 inch plywood sheet (24"X48") for the sides. That leaves me about 4" between the door and the screen fronts. Compared to the std Langstroth, I added space to accommodate the frame supports and separator channel. The total dimensions went from 9 5/8 to 10 1/4.





  







  







  







  







  







  







  







  







  







  







  







  







  







  







  







  







  







  







  




❮
❯


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## ambee (Jan 8, 2021)

SUMMARY: extend std Langstroth brood dox dimension form 9 5/8" to 10 1/4 for each level you want in your hive. Use .5 inch round tube for frame support, 1/4 inch aluminum channel for dividers. 24"X48" side panels. Bottom screen section is 2.5".


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

ambee said:


> SUMMARY: extend std Langstroth brood dox dimension form 9 5/8" to 10 1/4 for each level you want in your hive. Use .5 inch round tube for frame support, 1/4 inch aluminum channel for dividers. 24"X48" side panels. Bottom screen section is 2.5".


Nice pics
thank you for taking the time to post.
GG


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## Verify (Jul 11, 2014)

ambee said:


> Here is an 8 frame 3-level I built that uses Langstroth frames. Could expand to 4 level. Each level can be isolated via a 1/4 plywood separator. Currently the plan is to include a top feeder via the 1/4 plywood separator. I designed a screened bottom that is removable and can be opened allow mites to drop out. The second level has a queen excluder made by using #5 stainless mesh that can be moved down to the first level is desired. . We will see how it all works later this year. The frame supports are .5" aluminum tube. the 1/4" ply is held by aluminum channel. The screens are held in via quick release push pin latches. Just press the red button to release the latch. Push the pin in to re-seat.The internal dimensions between the removable screens are the same as a std inside of a Langstroth hive. I used a half 3/4 inch plywood sheet (24"X48") for the sides. That leaves me about 4" between the door and the screen fronts. Compared to the std Langstroth, I added space to accommodate the frame supports and separator channel. The total dimensions went from 9 5/8 to 10 1/4.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice.


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## precious bee (Aug 22, 2021)

NorthMaine said:


> Are there any real 'standard' AZ/Slovenian hives out there? I have been searching and can't find any that have standard dimensions.
> 
> But the original European hive is not my real concern, what I really would like is one that is compatible with a Langstroth frame as close as possible so that if you wanted you could take a frame and insert it into a Lang.
> 
> ...


Hello this is Glenn from precious bees, we are working on a kit that has full blue prints and easy to follow instructions. Kit also has all the hardware needed you just supply the wood. Kit is for AZ or Lang hives.


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## GFWestTexas (Jul 10, 2021)

ambee said:


> SUMMARY: extend std Langstroth brood dox dimension form 9 5/8" to 10 1/4 for each level you want in your hive. Use .5 inch round tube for frame support, 1/4 inch aluminum channel for dividers. 24"X48" side panels. Bottom screen section is 2.5".


That is a great build, thanks for sharing.


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## Henry Geiger (Aug 31, 2021)

Just a couple questions, how do you deal with queen cells? How do you use the frame dividers with traditional frames?
Henry


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

little_john said:


> There's a .pdf available of the Alberti Hive plans (the 'A' in A-Z) at:
> http://www.imkerhomepage.de/die_imkerei/die_normbeute/Normbeute-52-TGL-11407.pdf
> 
> LJ


Well this link is broken, doesn't work


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

j.dickhdequip said:


> Well this link is broken, doesn't work


You're absolutely right.
LJ


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## 3BeeKeepers (Aug 20, 2004)

Thanks so much


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

This is what I found on the AZ Hive. Actually, I think someone on this forum posted it. However, I am posting it again, and I will also put pictures up as I go with this project.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Am not really into AZ hives.
Just came across this vid, by a chance - this is not a toy but rather a commercial setup.
There are tons of practical videos on the subject to shovel through - but you want to be looking at the European setups to really learn about the particular subject.


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

GregV said:


> Am not really into AZ hives.
> Just came across this vid, by a chance - this is not a toy but rather a commercial setup.
> There are tons of practical videos on the subject to shovel through - but you want to be looking at the European setups to really learn about the particular subject.



Thanks so much. I am going to post mine from start to finish, because I think a community ideas are far better than one.


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

ambee said:


> Here is an 8 frame 3-level I built that uses Langstroth frames. Could expand to 4 level. Each level can be isolated via a 1/4 plywood separator. Currently the plan is to include a top feeder via the 1/4 plywood separator. I designed a screened bottom that is removable and can be opened allow mites to drop out. The second level has a queen excluder made by using #5 stainless mesh that can be moved down to the first level is desired. . We will see how it all works later this year. The frame supports are .5" aluminum tube. the 1/4" ply is held by aluminum channel. The screens are held in via quick release push pin latches. Just press the red button to release the latch. Push the pin in to re-seat.The internal dimensions between the removable screens are the same as a std inside of a Langstroth hive. I used a half 3/4 inch plywood sheet (24"X48") for the sides. That leaves me about 4" between the door and the screen fronts. Compared to the std Langstroth, I added space to accommodate the frame supports and separator channel. The total dimensions went from 9 5/8 to 10 1/4.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very nice set up


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

I found this one. Actually is like the one I purchased to see how they were made, and I found this one.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Start at 15:00.
Actual, working commercial setup.


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

GregV said:


> Start at 15:00.
> Actual, working commercial setup.


Thanks so much for the information. To bad it wasn't in english, but we have the point. Through the video, I noticed frames that are covered in plastic. What do you think these are? Keeping the bees warm, or actually food?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

j.dickhdequip said:


> noticed frames that are covered in plastic. What do you think these are? Keeping the bees warm, or actually food?


Just typical soft covers.


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## 3BeeKeepers (Aug 20, 2004)

Oh ok I have never seen this before. I thought it was definitely for feeding


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## Verify (Jul 11, 2014)

Gray Goose said:


> Nice Pictures Verify,
> 
> ...


Hi there! Will answer with pics (was not here for loooong time)...


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Verify said:


> Hi there! Will answer with pics (was not here for loooong time)...


Verify,
I just commented "nice pictures" your "name"

was not a request.
however
more pics and more for all to view.
no rush

GG


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