# So many questions



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

hi tsw. i usually don't comment on topics outside of my own experience but i'll try. most of my frames were drawn on the mann lake rite cell plastic foundation although i have introduced a few foundationless frames in my brood boxes from time to time.

as far as putting an empty box in between 2 boxes of comb, when i tried that with foundation only frames it didn't work out so well. i believe it caused backfilling below the empty box and ultimately led to swarming.

if you are all foundationless, it might work better if you put the empty box on top, and bring up a few frames from the lower boxes to encourage them to get started up there, while putting your new empty frames in the lower boxes for them to get drawn down there.

matt davey has shown that it works well to put your new empty frames just outside of the brood frames in the lower boxes. try searching for 'opening up the sides'.

i'm not against foundationless, but crushing all that comb each year seems like it would be too much of a set back for me. having drawn comb is pretty important when it comes to swarm prevention if you are practicing anything like walt wright's checkerboarding.

the honey yield is also likely to be measurably more if there is already comb to fill vs. having the bees utilize resources to draw more comb. the rite cell allows for a pretty hard spinning in the extractor, although i think mike bush has reported that he doesn't have too much trouble extracting his foundationless frames.


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## TSWisla (Nov 13, 2014)

That is excellent advice. Thank you.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Haven't you heard that drawn comb is weight much like gold to a 
beekeeper, especially a new one? Many will not sell their drawn comb.
Some are looking at a steep price per frame say $25 each. Besides, they
are good for expansion too.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

If you're in regular lang frames, there's no need to crush and strain. Extract them. My only experience is with mediums, but as long as the comb is attached along most of the sides of the frames and at least at a couple points on the bottom bar they'll extract just fine. If you have them wired (meaning wire them and let the bees build the comb around the wire) that would be even better. I've extracted many mediums this way and only maybe 1 blows out each season. You then have foundationless comb to give back to your bees, to make splits, to give to swarms, etc.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

And to prevent any possible blow out I also put a 
rubber band or 2 around the frame to hold the new fragile comb in.
With the older comb I don't have to do this if they are well attached to
the frame.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

"_ Can I insert an empty super between the bottom (brood) super and top super?_"

I think the main thing you have to watch for is to not split the brood nest, which is a concern when inserting a super _between_ two other supers.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

So far with my 2 years experience with foundationless, there is a bit of seasonality to the whole comb management thing. 

In the spring, they make nice brood comb. Add a box above the brood nest bring a couple of combs of brood up, put foundationless on either side with some plastic frames. They will want to fill that box up with brood comb. Poke your head in and its easy enough to manage. If the colony is nice and strong, you can make small gaps in the brood nest where they will build immediately. 

Once nectar is being stored, then any frames with nectar go to a top box, the remainder of empty boxes filled with empty frames checkerboarded with plastic. Instead of pyramiding brood up, they are pyramided down. When its warm you can be more aggressive with checkerboarding brood. Once you start extracting you can return comb above the brood nest. At least that is my take on it this year.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

I have mostly been foundationless and don't find it a problem having bees draw out frames when they need the room. As squarepeg wrote, moving a frame or two of drawn up to the new box prompts them to draw the others, and gives them a strait comb to follow. As far as 'honey bound', the only time I have seen a resemblance of that was backfilling the brood nest, which is swarm prep. Moving a few frames up and adding empties in the brood nest here and there solved that several times. I have used a few wax foundations to see what that's like, but don't see much difference except for being strait already. I also dropped empty frames in the brood nest here and there for swarm control this spring and they were drawn out well. 

The only issue with foundationless I haven't liked was that two swarms I caught in a trap spaced the combs wider than the narrowed frame spacing and had some drawn off center of a few frames. I spaced the rest to avoid it. 

Extracting is good like others wrote, when it's attached a bit to the bottom. I plan to try and make some stainless steel clips to put on the bottom bar when I extract this weekend if there are any to extract that aren't attached like that. Radial extractors surely would help too. Try your best to save comb. If you extract and blow out some, you still have a lot more than you would crushing. Even if you have a blowout, a partial comb can be built onto. Try rubber banding it back into the frame and give it to the bees. They should repair it.


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