# Mixing bee races with new hives



## erikebrown (Oct 27, 2014)

I am in the U.S. and looking forward to starting bees in the spring. I have read a bit on different types of North American bees: Italian vs Carniolan vs Russian and so forth. I am not looking for advice on which type is best, I'm sure that is more discussion that I want to follow right now.

My question of the week is whether it is a bad idea to have two different races when starting out. I'm thinking of starting with 2 or 3 hives, and I've found local suppliers for most types. For example, if I buy Italians for one hive, and Russians for another, is that a bad thing? Is there value in having just one type, and could I run into inter-racial disputes because of different tendencies? For example, robbing between hives, defensive behavior, handling nectar flows differently, or other such problems?

Thanks for your thoughts,

Erik


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

It doesn't really matter too much to have different types. The future queens will go to DCAs and pick up DNA from bunches of different drones.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

erik, as dsegrest notes whatever you start out with will ultimately become hybridized with whatever is around you after a couple of generations. this would be a good question to ask of beekeepers in your area. find out what their experience has been with the different races and from the different suppliers. generally speaking there are many on the forum including myself that have had good luck with mongrelized bees that have become adapted to a local area. consider setting out a swarm trap or two and seeing what you end up with.


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

i believe in hybrid vigor in most animals like chicken crosses and mutt dogs, so why not bee crosses as well?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

spreerider said:


> i believe in hybrid vigor in most animals like chicken crosses and mutt dogs, so why not bee crosses as well?


Because along with hybrid vigor comes oftentime mean defensive bees from the russian heritage along with excessive swarming and difficulty requeening them. If you are new at beekeeping you need none of that. I would urge you to start with new world carniolans which match any advantages of the russians without most of the problems. They are just kittens with wings and pretty forgiving. Outcrosses from russians in my experience border on mean and i just don't need to prove I'm tough anymore.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Being the happy caretaker of four hives all from local swarms (they chose _me_, instead of the other way around), or from the open-mated daughters of the swarms, I happen to think that too-much is made about the various "races" of bees in the minds of beginners. 

KISS, get some bees known to be locally adapted, or adaptable, at leave it at that for your first years. What surprises many people is how many first-year hives die while their keepers get up to speed. Once you know enough to appreciate the subtler differences (outcomes and management requirements) between the races of bees, then you may wish to try your hand at some fancy bees.

Sturdy, local, mutt-girls are great for new beekeepers. If you can find a local supplier of locally grown bees, so much the better. 

I remember trying to figure out what "kind" of bees I had taken on by looking at pictures and reading about the types. But after awhile they were simply my cherished bees and I didn't care any more what they were. They came through their first winter like champs and had enough moxie to survive my inept attempts at caring for them. 

Enj.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

Half my bees are local mutts and all have been open mated. Watching the entrance, its hard to consistanly get two of the same markings and color, even from those queens which are of Italian stock. While they all share a number of common characteristics, they each have a clear uniqueness. From my perspective, the race trait differences are great but with all the open mating, in a very short time things get too mixed up for me to worry about race. I simply strive to propigate from the hives with the traits I find attractive.

Just my $.02, so what the heck Go with two different races; you maybe able to get a cross with the good traits from both. You'll be watch both hives for bad behaviors and issues anyway.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If you have carnis and Italians in the same area you might want to deploy robber screens as a preventative measure. I had a big strong hive of Sue Cobey carnis almost robbed to death in August - the majority of my hives are VSH Italians. Just an anecdote, but for what it's worth...


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## scituatema (Aug 30, 2014)

How happy are you with VHS Italians? I have VHS carni, and wondering Italian one


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

All my bees are local mutts and are aclimated to our climate here. They do very well for themselves (stores, brooding, overwintering and requeening themselves) and for the most part are rather gentle. Like stated before they get cross bred rather quickly.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

scituatema said:


> How happy are you with VHS Italians? I have VHS carni, and wondering Italian one


Mine are a little defensive but nothing unmanagable. As you probably know VSH is just one tool - I also treat.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

hello I have many races of bees carnis, new world carnis, Russians, Yugo that's caini x Russian, and some mutts and this year I got Italians.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Try them all nothing like experience to teach you. They will all manage a little different. For example russains will likely teach better swarm control, ect.


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## dobeedobeedo (Oct 21, 2014)

Erik, I am so glad you asked this question because I was wondering the same thing. I am going to start my hives in the spring, and I cannot get to a local bee club meeting until March!! I am sure I'll order my bees before then, and I was also wondering if I'm okay with two different races in two different hives. I've also been reading a lot and I see that some folks take little or notice of race, while others have very strong ideas of what kind of bees are 'better'. I also don't see how you can help but wind up with mixed races eventually, and re-queening can change everything.

I am thinking for experience sake, I may mix it up the first year and see how I feel about the girls with some experience under my belt. Good luck to you!


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

erikebrown said:


> My question of the week is whether it is a bad idea to have two different races when starting out.


If you choose one strain of bees you can compare one with the other hives and take away conclusions easier about what you can and should do.
Worth the worth but in this article you can see a comparison between the Italian and Russian: http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/pdfs/2.16 copy.pdf .
Good luck for you beginning.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

This is solely from my very limited experience... but a booming Carni hive left a very weak hive two feet away alone and caused no issue with them.

A booming Italian hive ruthlessly robbed a hive two feet away to death. They are also pretty fiery when it comes to being opened at imperfect times (cloudy, cool, etc.). The Carni's and "feral" swarms have all been kittens in comparison to the Italian hive.

They'll be getting requeened next spring depending on how everything shakes out. They also blew through all of their stores brooding their brains out in the summer dearth.


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## umchuck (May 22, 2014)

I'm a newbee started this year with a nuc (carnies) and a package, (Italian) I then got 2 more nucs of carnies and had no real problems with any, I did notice the Italian's were prone to robbing, robbing screens took care of that, and as for gentleness, there were times during the flow that I didn't even have to smoke, I will say that the only suppers with honey in them was the Italian hive, I only took 2 med. frames and left the rest to them, they're going into winter with 3 deeps top one being loaded with honey. just don't know how there will winter, spring will tell, I do have another nuc of carnies ordered for spring,
just a little info for you to digest


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

the reason I have all those different breeds of bees is I like some of the traits in all those breeds since I open mate I hope to get a great mixed breed in time. like Russians wintering well stopping brood when no available pollen, carnolians I like there ability to build up fast and not runny or robbing other hives when inspecting others at the same time, nwc I like the fact not too swarmy also keeping some drones in the winter for early or late virgin queens, Italians like less propolis and large brood nest. the mutts as some keeper call them great local bees. either way I love em all


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## erikebrown (Oct 27, 2014)

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts. Really enjoy the input from everyone.

@dobeedobeedo, good luck this spring. I'm sure you know that Brushy Mountain Bee Farm is near you. I think they may sell bees in addition to equipment, but either way probably a good local source of advice. Enjoy!

Erik


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Mixing races won't help when you're new and small-scale. If you plan on early pollination contracts, skip the Russians. They won't build up in time. If your area has a slow, late first nectar / pollen flow, Russians are great. Russians' populations do explode on you and swarming happens quite sudden compared to others. Russians are best kept close to home, where you can watch for a sudden increase in fly-out rate (=> time to divide and add a queen, now!).

Beginners often start with gentle bees or local ferals. Carniolans are an excellent choice.

Generally speaking, mean bees make more honey, but there are some exceptions. I love my mean girls - they have come through all kinds of disasters at the top of the heap each year, my best producers. I did not become a beekeeper expecting to not get stung. I figure it comes with the territory, and I got used to it in a hurry. The worst part for me is sleeping late the next day after getting stung up real good. A small price to pay for otherwise fantastic bees.

I don't see spending a lot on bees that will open mate. I started out trapping and doing cut-outs. The first kind are free, and the other kind pay cash + free bees, wax, and honey (Oh, ****! We all hate free honey.) 

I'd avoid buying packages in favor of over-wintered nuc's, though. Swarms that have not yet built comb are a great choice, too, if you allow them to move in, leave the hive in place for a day, then lock them in and move them in the evening. Best of luck.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think the only reason "mean bees make more honey" is that they rob your other hives... which doesn't make YOU more honey...


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## dobeedobeedo (Oct 21, 2014)

erikebrown said:


> @dobeedobeedo, good luck this spring. I'm sure you know that Brushy Mountain Bee Farm is near you. I think they may sell bees in addition to equipment, but either way probably a good local source of advice. Enjoy!
> 
> Erik


I was meant to do this - Brushy Mountain is a one-hour drive and I can also pick up bees from Mann-Lake in Wilkes-Barre, which is even closer! I love it when a plan comes together. 

Now I won't have to traumatize my local postal employees. I was just planning on giving them some honey next year. 

Good luck to you, Erik.


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