# Baby Bees Emerging -- NO WINGS!!



## Exquisite Bee (Jun 18, 2006)

I got a new queen a couple of months ago and she seems to have been laying....We finally are having a bright sunny day in California and the bees are out in full force.....I noticed in front of the hives, lots and lots of bees on the gravel crawling around, looks like new ones and many have either no wings or deformed wings???? Any thoughts on this one??? I found the queen in the hive and she seems to be doing OKAY....She is a Carnolian from Hawaii.....Thanks for all your help...Exquisite Bee


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Deformed wing virus, often spread by varroa mites. As a virus there is no chemotheraputic agent to address the issue.

There have been some posts here recently claiming a rather large number of queens tested as a result of the dwindiling bee syndrome of 2006 which were found to be carrying the virus.

Normally you would look for and treat the vector host, varroa and support the hives any way you can (feeding, ventilation, adding brood from a healthy diseas free hive). In light of the queen findings and what you describe I would also consider requeening if you hope to save the hive.


----------



## Exquisite Bee (Jun 18, 2006)

Should there even be brood hatching this time of the year? Temperatures here in San Joaquin Valley in California are around 30 degrees at night and low 50's in the day.


----------



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Whether there should be brood hatching out now or not, the fact of the matter is there IS brood hatching out.

Have you checked the varroa mite levels in your hive? Drop counts?


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Yes. Here in upstate New York Queens start laying the end of January, often temps are in the 0 F range when this starts. Your temps are plenty warm enough for pretty active brood rearing if you have a cluster of any size.

The bees you see hatching out now with damaged wings were laid 3 weeks ago. This will be a difficult cycle to beat in winter. Did you treat for mites this year? What did your fall mite load look like? I would evalute the mite load this time of year with a powdered sugar roll, evaluate the size of the cluster, stores and see if what you have is worth saving. A large cluster with good stores may still have a chance if your area stays mild for the rest of the winter.


----------



## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

I live about an hour west of you, in San Jose. I have many bees hatching now. The orientation flights are quite impressive for December. But back to your problem. 

I would not recommend tearing the hive apart right now -- too risky. However, if you assume that you have varroa mites (likely) then you could safely apply an Oxalic Acid drip. You can search this site for a recipe. May not completely solve the issue but would surely reduce the mite load and possibly allow the hive to survive.

Fuzzy


----------



## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
It may be that your mites have concenrated to few brood. YOu will se if you look closer to bees. There should be mites on emerging bees.

If it is so, take all brood frames away with their mites and give oxalic acid trickling. 
http://bees.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136437131

If you let brood be in the hive, you have a big load mites in the hive.

.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Another emergency option would be Formic Acid Pads such as Mite-Away II. If your temps are in the proper range for their use it will kill all of the mites in the capped cells too. 

I used it one time. It seemed to be hard on the bees but was very effective against the mites. You need to do something quickly or you'll lose your colony. It may already be too late but you need to give it a shot, they may pull through. Do some research and plan ahead for a strategy to control Varroa mites throughout the year, they are here to stay.


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Exquisite Bee . . .

Some form (prefer natural drop on stick board) of mite counts BEFORE you treat would be much appreciated and very helpful to others as well


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

ExB, before you go listening to Dave, read the post "24 hour varroa count" in its entirety. He'll be having you do mite counts daily for the next year or more...  (joking of course, mite counts tell alot.)


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Dog-gone it BjornBee. I'm just trying to learn something (this time







)

I promise NOT to ask for more than a "hundred or so" counts


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Dave, you might do better if you keep that bum, er I mean nice guy..  george out of the conversation.

Forget it, just checked above, he already posted in this thread.


----------



## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Mike,

>>>> If your temps are in the proper range for their use it will kill all of the mites in the capped cells too<<<

I don't believe this is true. In fact I don't believe anything will kill a mite in a capped cell. Do you really mean this?

Dickm


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Guess I should have worded that differently. I should have said "it will kill all of the mites in the capped cells too as the bees emerge"... vs a one time phoretic mite treatment.

Thanks for picking up on that.


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{I don't believe this is true.}

The early "scientific' study done for and published in ABJ on Formic (they used beer coasters mounted in plastic containers with a hole cut in the lid as the dispening vehicle!) indictated Formic would kill mites in capped cells although my usage certainly would not support that.


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

It has been suggested that formic acid is able to kill varroa in capped brood cells as well as on adult bees. Tests where brood combs were fumigated in closed plastic foam boxes at 50ml for 1 hour killed 100% of mites in the brood cells with 90% of brood surviving the treatment48. However, vapors may not be sufficient to produce similar results in field conditions.
[http://www.maf.govt.nz/biosecurity/pest-diseases/animals/varroa/papers/varroa-treatment-options.htm - Accessed 2/27/04]

Field trials have shown only very limited efficacy on mites in cells [ABJ, 1/06, p35].


----------



## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Thanks guys,

Live and learn

Happy new year,

Dickm


----------



## ozzy (Feb 5, 2005)

From my experience, when you see a lot of bees w dwv the coloy is not far from collapse. I noticed a number of articles recently that indicate that commercial beekeepers have experienced huge losses over the last 6 weeks. Your colony may also be close to that stage and even if you are able to kill all the mites, the bees may not be able to recover. 
I wonder about DWV and whether what we are seeing is really just the result of multiple mites in the cell of a developing bee causing such damage the wings don't develop. I noticed that colonies that I found DWV had high mite counts of 50 or more per sample. After treatment and once mite levels were low I no longer saw damaged bees with DWV. If you look at the bees with damaged wings you will notice that they are smaller than normal bees so their body wt was certainly affected.


----------



## ozzy (Feb 5, 2005)

From my experience, when you see a lot of bees w dwv the coloy is not far from collapse. I noticed a number of articles recently that indicate that commercial beekeepers have experienced huge losses over the last 6 weeks. Your colony may also be close to that stage and even if you are able to kill all the mites, the bees may not be able to recover. 
I wonder about DWV and whether what we are seeing is really just the result of multiple mites in the cell of a developing bee causing such damage the wings don't develop. I noticed that colonies that I found DWV had high mite counts of 50 or more per sample. After treatment and once mite levels were low I no longer saw damaged bees with DWV. If you look at the bees with damaged wings you will notice that they are smaller than normal bees so their body wt was certainly affected.


----------



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>when you see a lot of bees w dwv the coloy is not far from collapse.

Generally true.

Ozzy, I've seen DWV in a hive without there being an appreciable mite load, but this appears to be an exception and not the rule. The virus responsible for deformed wings is ever present like many others but it usually only outwardly manifests in hives where the bees have been stressed and weakened by mite predation but I suppose anything that stresses a colony sufficiently can cause it to exhibit DWV.

In the case I spoke of above, it was a small late swarm that I hived in a single deep. Shortly thereafter I observed some bees with deformed wings but discovered the mite load was very low. They were kind of cranky too- the late summer dearth was upon us and they were defensive, though not obsessively so. Most of my hives seem to get more defensive when the dearth hits, can't say as I blame them. Anyways, I gave them a couple of frames of honey and left them alone to see how they'd do.

They ended up filling their single deep with bees and honey and the DWV cleared up. They remained somewhat high spirited throughout the fall but not so hot that I felt the need to do anything about it. I didn't treat them this fall and I'm wintering them over in a single deep (not generally attempted around here) and will see what they do come spring- if they make it that far. They'll either survive and thrive or dwindle and die.

Almost invariably, if you reduce the mite load or relieve the stress on the hive showing signs of DWV, you can cure the symptoms.


----------



## Exquisite Bee (Jun 18, 2006)

My Mistake on the type of QUEEN...This is a Minnesota Hygienic that has been laying the brood that is emerging with no wings and some deformed wings.....Was not from Hawaii!!! WIll try some better mite control. I use the bottom screens and mite patties with the essential oils, but I waited a little too late in the season to get them in. Do you think the QUEEN is carrying the VIRUS???? Thanks for your help


----------



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Do you think the QUEEN is carrying the VIRUS????

Very possible. I don't have the citations to document this but it has been determined that in some cases bee disease progress is "top down" i.e., starting with the queen being diseased, and her laying diseased eggs. This is not always the case but apparently it's all too common. The other way disease is passed to brood is through feeding by infected nurse bees.

This is one explanation as to why requeening is often recommended as a "solution" to a "problem" though it is also likely that a fresh queen, different genetics, and a break in the brood cycle can do wonders even if the old queen isn't passing on disease.


----------



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

The mites are very important, but in order to cure the imfection, you will *also* need to requeen. Viruses other than DWV are almost certainly present. Requeening provides a brief break in the brood cycle, and prevents the possibility of transovarial transmission from the queen herself. Although not usually recommended, there is also good work showing the tetracycline treatment helps many colonines like yours.


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{I would not recommend tearing the hive apart right now -- too risky.}

Unless it's necessary to save the hive. We tear hives apart all the time in the Mid 50's and haven't lost one yet. Make certain you do it int he warmth of the day and the bees have a couple of hours above 45 degrees to re-cluster.

[ January 10, 2007, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


----------



## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

huterw said:


> BULL****! PROVE YOUR THEORY!


13 year old thread, and this is your first post immediately upon registering.

Moderators, please make this userid go away and never come back. There's far to much of this lately where folks are creating a brand new id, then dredging up threads from decades ago. Between that and the politics, site has lost all it's appeal as of ate.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I agree that huterw came on a little strong, no need to show one's backside on a first post. User is still active but post went to limbo.


----------



## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

A new research paper on passing DWV through pupal cannibalism.


----------

