# How many hives did you loose? How do they look now? Are they still going backwards?



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

benstung said:


> honest reports only.


Ben, that quote is price less, sounds like you've been to a few bee meeting in your time.

My bees are as I expected them to be avg, losses are up a little 5-7% but the cold weather here has slowed them down in the brood department.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

benstung said:


> I am looking for some updates on hive strength and overall losses.
> Commercial guys only please.
> Looking for reports out of california and texas.
> 
> ...



When this question is asked the first thought in the back of my mind is "What date are people basing their answers on?" When you answer the question its best to answer this question from a certain starting point. Is it from splits or packages? Is it from when the honey was pulled? How about when the last feed can for winter was put back in the shop? 

In Keith's case his starting point is always "the last time the hive got a fresh coat of Blue paint"? 

Your "start" date helps give us all a relevant reference point to base comparisons on.


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## Brian Suchan (Apr 6, 2005)

Shoulda waited couple weeks before posting sure there is a lot of texas beeks that wont go down till the end of the month or begining of february


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Honey-4-All said:


> Your "start" date helps give us all a relevant reference point to base comparisons on.


This is a very important issue that I wish we could standardize as an industry.
Every year I am subjected to at least 4 surveys that include questions about winter losses.
There is all together WAY too much room for variation and fuzzy math without a standard definition that we all understand and apply to our situation.
So here is my formula, one that soley has to do with hive numbers and almost nothing to do with the calendar:

When I give you my "winter loss" I am actually taking the highest number of hives that you had in the previous year and comparing that number to the amount that sucsessfully makes it through winter.
What I am really reporting is ANNUAL LOSS. 
My loss from peak numbers this year is 5.5% There is no fudging or waffling. The number going to Almonds is subtracted from the highest amount in the prevoius year right down to the swarm hived behind the barn.
No artificial dates or excuses.
Any thing short of that really gives us an unknown number because the dates and rules for counting are all over the place.
If you have 2000 hives on June 15th or when ever you hit your high number, and no more boxes are filled and take 1800 to almonds you have a 10% loss for the previous year.
Simple and meaningful.


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

very amazing Harry. And i agree with your formula


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

HarryVanderpool said:


> My loss from peak numbers this year is 5.5% There is no fudging or waffling. The number going to Almonds is subtracted from the highest amount in the prevoius year right down to the swarm hived behind the barn.
> No artificial dates or excuses.


Ah, gee Harry, now your making me look bad. Here's my high/low numbers, I max out in May with 3,000 then I run the bees having a few bad licks along the way(summer/fall) then about late oct I'm down about 2600-2700 so then I make up about another 300-400 singles. Then come ALMOND time I'm about flush +/- 5%.
I always seem to have about 20% or so queen failure, been fighting this for a while now, Harry I would love to have 5-6% high to low avg.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

I think 25-30% is my average and this year is going to be about the same. A little more I am not counting from bear strikes. Lost a dozen in one yard due to a bear in the fall.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

"This is a very important issue that I wish we could standardize as an industry."

Another item on the standardization lost would be if you filled deadouts in the summer and fall.

Say you do 100 splits in April and by the end of August 20 of them have queen failures. Now your at 80. Split 20 of those on September 1 and all 100 make it to the almonds. What's you data now? How are you different than the quy who didn't make up fall losses..... Besides being up $2800 in the almonds that is?


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## mark g (Jun 6, 2006)

Started in spring with 1350 lost 100 or so through the summer, made a decent honey crop, everything looked great late august. Then apiguard arrived late and treatment was delayed until late september. Now 850 or so, 600 look ok 7-8 framers, the rest at least 5 frames. Took to Texas a month ago and hope they are holding up.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Honey-4-All;885644 How are you different than the quy who didn't make up fall losses..... Besides being up $2800 in the almonds that is?[/QUOTE said:


> I don't know Phil, you've seen my bees in the almonds how does that blue paint look like.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

As I was typing I see Keith was thinking the same thing about Harry's loses. Having a equal playing field would help when answering questions. Unfortunately we all hold our hive tools at a different angle and given the disparity in how most people judge things its no wonder that there is "clouding" in all these "surveys." An objective and true answer can only be gathered by a silent team of people who do not divulge the questions to be answered as they gather the data. Best if they do not have a hive tool in their hand during the whole year as they "watch" over the people they are surveying.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Im not from Texas or California , but right now I wish I were, . . . burrrrrrr, . . . 

Anyway, I count my "winter losses" from the number of hives into winter, and simple math with the alive hives out of winter.
I rather not count my annual losses. From my peak spring time numbers, June, til fall, I tend to have 10% to 20% fall off. And then usually another 20% during the winter. 
But its busy busy busy building back those hives during spring 

5% Harry, now your probably not counting the June nucs that are filling those losses are you,


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Now you guys have me so confused I don't know whether I have any losses or not. :kn:


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> Now you guys have me so confused I don't know whether I have any losses or not. :kn:


So many good responses, all very different but point clearly to the fact that over wintering surveys say NOTHING OF VALUE!
Eastside's bees were all perfect and a bear wiped them out. Come on,,,;we're not going to count that ;are we?!!
Keith and Harry get on the bees and stay on them, stay on them, stay on them right up till it's too late: CHEATERS!!!
And how about plugging in nucs? Is that a combine that would mean one loss or is it a seasonal beekeeping manipulation? 
And here is another >>story<< for you to digest:
If I were to honestly answer many winter loss surveys by their oddball parameters, my answer would normally ZERO. Even in the years that I have suffered 17% loss or 20% loss, those losses were taken in the fall.
My 5.5% losses were all taken in the fall this year. Mainly queen issues.
Last year I had a 17% loss. All in the fall.
Year before, broke my record of 2.8% , at 2.6%. All taken before the hives were wrapped.
What I see in the last look in November when the hives are wrapped are what I have in the spring, year after year.
Sorry to say this to my fellow beekeepers, but....
If "winter losses" come as a surprise, your outfit is out of control in my opinion.
It's not CCD, not Disappearing Bee Syndrom.
Its a bad case of TOO MANY BEES TO KEEP TRACK OF syndrom.
Don't hate me but I see it all of the time. :/


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## dback (Jan 8, 2012)

So, I'm curious Harry......how many hives do you run, how many employees do you have and how much pollination vs honey production do you do?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

HarryVanderpool said:


> If "winter losses" come as a surprise, your outfit is out of control in my opinion.



Yes I agree, to a point. A couple of years ago our area had severe losses. I missed out on the complete wipe out event, I encountered 35%. Many suffered through 80%-100% losses.
And it was by surprise. The bees went into winter looking good.
I blame a viral infection. Even good beekeepers cant battle viral infections. 
Many say it takes a couple of years to shake an infection


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

dback said:


> So, I'm curious Harry......how many hives do you run, how many employees do you have ...?


Exactly one hive more than you. One employee more than you.
Thats my standard answer to those questions when they magiclly appear in these discussions.
That way, no one can use my answer to fall into excusism.

"Really! You have only half the bees I do?!! Why, If you were running as many bees as us you would be losing bees like crazy!!"
My answer saves a lot of people a lot of typing. 
I run just as may bees as fit my operational scale, and that I can TAKE CARE OF PROPERLY.

You're welcome!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Harry: just having a little fun with you. Actually I agree wholeheartedly with your statement about losses although I assume that what Benstung is really getting at is if anyone else is seeing abnormally high losses from their strong summer hives. 
Losing hives is a normal part of beekeeping and has been as long as people have been keeping bees. Our yearly "high water mark" is after all the nucs are made up in early April. It is pretty common to have in the range of 10% that don't catch a queen in the first 6 weeks a few of those attributable to the move north, another 5% attrition through the summer and fall, another 5 to 7% attrition from late fall throug the winter. Of the remaining hives usually about 70 % grade out good enough for Almond pollination the other 30% are mostly 4 to 6 combers the majority of which will grow quite quickly into a "splittable" single by mid March. 
So I suppose my annual losses among queenright colonies are somewhere North of 10%.....or maybe it's 20%. Frankly I don't really care, I only know that we always have more than enough bees to make up our empty stuff. As far as this year is concerned our bees have been running a bit better than those numbers.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Exactly one hive more than you. One employee more than you.
> So what your saying is , you run a lot of bees and put up with with a lot more bull****?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Ok.... I'm all settle in under the bus.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

That would be "sub" bus?


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## beebze (Sep 24, 2007)

I agree with Ian, So that being said I'm running better then normal about 16%. They look good and eating pollen sub.
I have a Fall loss number, and a winter loss number. Since I'm always growing March thru August I don't really know what my peak number is until August or September. Sadly to say. Some get lost in the Move of things. Eventually they all come home. 
I'm probably one of those beekeepers that Harry refers too as I run too many hives and can't keep track of them all. I have 1 full time employee and up to 4 part time employee's in the summer and thru out the year.


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

well it seems none of you experienced what we did. 
Good hives gone bad in no time. they made a honey crop and fell apart.
i have now made my conclusion that this was due to higher than normal chemical use by crop farmers and zero rain to wash the residues away.

yes i understand that the bees can be made up just as quickly as they die. we cant continue to count on that.
we need to see these signs and find a solution.

its obvious something happened this year. there are thousands of hives missing from the almond pollination. and i want to know why?????

I mean Kieth come on your so in tune with bees and beekeeping you must be hearing it all over the place. how come *********** didnt send bees to CA this year? or how about ********** ****. O yeah and ***** ***** only sent 2 loads??

give me some real info....

no more bull ****


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Im up here sitting in a snow bank and Im hearing of huge outfits with little to no bees to send to the almonds. Im hearing of prices of well over $200 per hive. This is all grape vine talk, but its coming from somewhere, right? How is it shaping up down there?


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## dback (Jan 8, 2012)

Benstung: If you figure "high water" mark to "high water" mark on an annual basis we lose zero. If you figure "high water" mark to what makes it into almonds we figure a 20% loss plus or minus a little. This year for some reason we have more hives that will make it into almonds by quite a bit, however, my personal feelings are that we may not have quite the overall strength as last year. I have spoken with several of the larger commercials and at least some are anticipating higher then normal loses.

Harry: One of my better friends is (as I believe you were if I'm not mistaken) a former inspector that still runs bees. We have had this same discussion. While he is far more respectful and far less sensitive about the topic, we are in complete agreement that there are many factors involved in typical annual "survival" rates.....locations, pollination vs honey production and numbers managed just to mention a few. I applaud your >5% survival rate......in my younger days I strived to do the same by doing it all myself. Unfortunately, I had loans to pay, kids to raise and a wife to care for and found it difficult to make it work when just starting out. I changed the operation by expanding, budgeting in loses and doing far less of the physical work myself. May be 'half assed' in your book but a winning formula for me. Personally, I'm in this business to show a profit.

Your welcome


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I think it's important to note that the whole bee supply situation as relates to Almond pollination where over a million hives are needed is pretty hard for any one person to analyze. Beekeepers can be secretive and rumors travel pretty fast. There do seem to be more stories about beekeepers coming up short this year than most years. The people I talk to seem to think that there may very well be some shortages and the $200 figure may well be a reality in some scattered instances but on the whole prices may only go up 5 to 10 dollars over last year. That's just my guess and it's based on limited information.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

benstung said:


> I mean Kieth come on your so in tune with bees and beekeeping you must be hearing it all over the place. how come *********** didnt send bees to CA this year? or how about ********** ****. O yeah and ***** ***** only sent 2 loads??
> 
> give me some real info....
> 
> no more bull ****


What.... are.... you....talking .... about....


P.S. I know the answer......... they didn't use Nutra-Bee


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

ha ha ha, love the way you plug your product when ever someone gives you an in


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

dback said:


> Harry: One of my better friends is ....... far more respectful and far less sensitive about the topic,.
> Your welcome


Keith, will you skoot over just a bit please?
Not sure if it's the tire chains or what but something just WHACKED me upside the head.
:O


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

benstung said:


> Good hives gone bad in no time. they made a honey crop and fell apart.
> we need to see these signs and find a solution.
> give me some real info....
> 
> no more bull ****


Well... O.K. Benstung, get your butt out here to Calif and you can tag along as we go through our outfit. feeding sub syrup & feeding sub syrup. Get off the blame game get get your butt in the hives.

http://youtu.be/1H-Y7MAASkg


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

The only loss I show is on my BOOKS.:digging: Really if you need more hives you just move them from here to there.:scratch:


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## LT (Aug 17, 2006)

Simple question! Lots of answers


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

Yes keith you are right i am not in CA and do not want to bee. you keep your butt in the hives. you can watch them cluster


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

benstung said:


> . you can watch them cluster


Noop, warm'in up here putting 4lbs sub an a gallon and a half of straight sucros
Got a close freind in TEXASS, I've been helping him out on how to run bees, He told me over the weekend his are the best he's seen at this time of year. He said for the first time he is going to fill the whole 48ft truck up.  
Ben, are you sure it's not the guy running the bees that has to do with the way they look?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

It is all about location and business model. When a young man in North Dakota, most commerical guys would save 20% of their colonies to go to Texas after Christmas and the rest got gassed. Was that an 80% winter or annual loss? How many bees or colonies you have is not as important as when you have them. Taking losses in the fall is indeed admirable, but if you are in Canada where southern refills are not an option, one is going to roll the farmer dice and keep all those marginal colonies. What a bunch of grumpy old men!


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Vance G said:


> What a bunch of grumpy old men!


That comment ruined my entire day.
I don't know about the rest of the guys but I resent being called old.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Glad to have an impact but a young grumpy man wouldn't realize he was being talked about!


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Vance G said:


> a young grumpy man wouldn't realize he was being talked about!


You might be right about that but I'll tell ya what.....there are a boatload of young grouches out there. When you get to be my age, it's hard to figure...how can anyone who is thirty five be grumpy....short of somebody hitting them over the head.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

How right you are Vance. I only run the bees the 6 months I need them.:digging: And yes they are all needed then.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

benstung said:


> we need to see these signs and find a solution.
> I mean Kieth come on your so in tune with bees and beekeeping you must be hearing it all over the place.


Yes, I know why some have lossed Bees.

I have one question for you, did you have any mite or nosema problems between June-Oct ?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well, ben, you call me out in one of your post, and now your know where too be found..... the BEST way to fix a problem is embrace it not run from it.


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

yes keith i am clear to mexico at this point. there was no calling out. i just wanted to tap into your vast knowledge.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

benstung said:


> i just wanted to tap into your vast knowledge.


 I've been told I have vast &%#!$ but knowledge wasn't one of them they mentioned. 

Let's roll the clock backwards on your bees Ben and let's find where things went wrong. We can fix this coming year by learning from last year. I was down below Fresno on Sunday, coming back north I stopped in to have dinner in Chow chila I heard some of the same stories as I heard else where from Beekeepers some say CCD is back, I say sloppy beekeeping never left.
So Ben, when you get back from Mex-heee-co let's get to work and we will find the problems with the bees.


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

Sloppy beekeeping eh. The only thing we could have done would have been to treat for mites in middle summer. besides that there was no slop.
in this situation the only hope is the genetics from the hives that survived should beeee exactly what we want. and that will help next year.
everyone will tell you that mites go in a cycles as do the bees that have to live with them and i hope this is true.
So when you were in Chow Chila you told those folks they were sloppy beekeepers? did they tell you to go fly a kite


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Just a curiosity Ben. If you had been able to knock back your mites during the summer…how much do you think it would have impacted your losses? Also…what could you use to treat for mites in a Texas summer?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I have one question for you, did you have any mite or nosema problems between June-Oct ?

benstung, Im also wondering what your mite counts and nosema levels were spring and fall,.?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

benstung said:


> Sloppy beekeeping eh.


Why is it if you point out the truth about why a hive or outfit go's down that coulda been avoided your some how a bad guy??


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

if a fella does not know his disease pressures in his operation, I would call that sloppy beekeeping


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

before that comment gets me in trouble, Im generally speaking


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Why is it if you point out the truth ..........your some how a bad guy??


It all gets down to personal responsibility.
When I have hive losses, they are my fault, PERIOD!
There is a real refreshing and liberating freedom that comes from shedding the blame game and standing on your own two feet and manning up to ALL of lifes challanges. 

We fired a guy severl years ago that was a great big strong fellow with loads of talent and capability on many levels but unfortunatly could not stay out of trouble. As much of a relief it was to have him gone, it was a loss as well.
The next day, I was walking through the plant and an engineer pointed to a machine and asked me, " Harry, when we have breakdowns, in what aspect of the machine is usually involved?"
I asked, "which machine?" He replied, "It makes no difference. Just in general; what aspect of our machines is likely to fail in the majority of instances?"
The answer is: THE CONTROL SYSTEM!
It is rarely the 480 volt motors, or gearboxes,. It is rarely the working end. It is usually on the low voltage control side.
Same with people. Think about it.
Some people just neverlearn to fly above the clouds. How sad.
So you fix those that are repairable, and bid farewell to others.
Did this answer your question?
:-/


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

in early June samples were tested from 16 hives came up with zero spore count for both types of nosemas. Also many hives were tested for mites and they were not out of control, no more than past years. 

there is a lot of beekeeping that goes on outside of beesource. And because of that i know we are far from the only one's with out of control losses.

these losses are from all different sorts a beekeepers


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

benstung said:


> we are far from the only one's with out of control losses.
> these losses are from all different sorts a beekeepers


Very true Ben, this spring is going to be a train wreck "for some" for others it's a golden nut harvest.

Ben, I wish you a successful 2013 season.


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

ok ok


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Ian said:


> before that comment gets me in trouble,


No worries mate, I will save you a spot under the bus.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

is there enough room under their ?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Benstung wrote:

in this situation the only hope is the genetics from the hives that survived should beeee exactly what we want. and that will help next year.

Good luck with that. You are assuming that next year will be like the last.

Crazy Roland


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## borada bee doc (Feb 6, 2010)

Hi all. I've been watching this thread from the bleachers and would like to make a point that has been overlooked in support of benstung's bee management. Good hive management is a regional matter. For instance, studies in Alberta a few years back, suggested that pollen supplements in fall were economically a poor choice, as they did not affect hive overwintering. Beekeepers who heeded this advise in Southern Oregon, however, saw significant hive losses despite timely treatment of mites. 

A study by Dr. Eisen of 200 colonies in southern California, comparing pollen supplementation, mite treatment, or both, demonstrated significant benefit from any of these interventions. A rough approximation of results is as follows: 
1: control- outcome of most colonies dinks or deadouts.
2: mite treatment- 50-60% of colonies made grade for almond pollination
3: subs and syrup- 50-60% " "
4: mite, subs and syrup- 70-80% " "
You notice a significant difference between study results from Alberta and southern California.

My understanding is that benstung is from Minnisota where fall pollen is assumed to be more on the scale of Alberta. While supplemental subs and syrup will grow massive hives in California, in most years, this is probably unnecessary in his operation. Now, however, we see high temperature and drought conditions in his area, possibly some roundup ready crops with elimination of pollen producing weeds, maybe a little growth modifying or appetite inhibiting pesticides, maybe also some Idiopathic Brood Death Syndrome or new viral pathogen, and suddenly "he's not in Kansas anymore", well Minnisota anyway. This does not mean that his beekeeping is sloppy or that Keith's beekeeping is superior; it's bad luck in a vocation where you don't see the problem until weeks into the injury. With proper and timely intervention, you may be able to pull your bees out, but often there are so many variables that could be causing the dwindle, that it's really best guesses and a crap shoot. 

I would reckon that if Keith unknowingly got some contaminated HFCS or heat processed rather than expeller produced soy flour in his subs, he could see dwindling too, and this would not mean that Keith was a poor beekeeper. 

Hive losses may not be the beekeepers fault, but *repetitive hive losses* are. We've got some very successful large scale beekeepers in the Oregon who are also seeing losses and you can be assured that a lot of fine beekeeping practice and cutting edge science is incorporated into their operations.

Now, as for change for next year, do you manage Minnesota bees like they are in California or like they are in Minnesota. Last year was very unusual so normal management practices failed, but this observation is easier through the retrospectoscope. How can we identify an unusual weather pattern which essentially removes us from the regional climate which we have adapted our beekeeping practices to. Or, how can we identify when a harmful event has afflicted our bees...soon enough to modify our management practice. Oh, and once we see a problem, how do we determine the best practice alternative. Don't mention apiary inspectors as I would guess that many of you viewing this post could teach inspectors a few things. Well, lets bring our concerns up in a public forum and be turned to chopped liver by those who are having a *luckier* year. 

To summarize a recent quote from the American Bee Journal, the successful beekeeper will be able to adapt to a changing world. We're all in this together and if we are able to foster alliances to assist each other, we will be better able to cope with what will probably be tougher times ahead.

Andrew


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

benstung said:


> Also many hives were tested for mites and they were not out of control, no more than past years.
> 
> Just wondering what does not out of control equate to in a mite wash?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

borada bee doc said:


> Well, lets bring our concerns up in a public forum and be turned to chopped liver by those who are having a *luckier* year.


Whoa Andrew! I saw one comment that was potentially critical of benstung...otherwise I see a lot of people asking questions....
In my case ben said the only thing he might have done differently would have been to treat for mites during the summer. I was curious how effective he thought that might have been in stemming his losses.
I think most folks reading and commenting are sympathetic and hope to make sure their own operations don't suffer the same fate.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

swarm_trapper said:


> Just wondering what does not out of control equate to in a mite wash?


My thresholds have shifted from 5% in fall to 2-3% in fall


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

borada bee doc said:


>


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

swarm_trapper said:


> benstung said:
> 
> 
> > Also many hives were tested for mites and they were not out of control, no more than past years.
> ...


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

beemandan said:


> Whoa Andrew! I saw one comment that was potentially critical of benstung...otherwise I see a lot of people asking questions....
> In my case ben said the only thing he might have done differently would have been to treat for mites during the summer. I was curious how effective he thought that might have been in stemming his losses.
> I think most folks reading and commenting are sympathetic and hope to make sure their own operations don't suffer the same fate.


Well we will never know how treating in July would have effected the out come. I like to think it would have helped, but then again I am still not sure mite loads were the whole problem.
But with out mites maybe the bees could have weathered any other storm that came along.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

benstung said:


> But with out mites maybe the bees could have weathered any other storm that came along.


Heaven knows there's truth in that.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

beemandan said:


> Heaven knows there's truth in that.


Very well said BMD, any time that you have a good over winter conditions like we had last year (remember all the extra bees in Calif at almond time) you WILL have a higher mite load avg, so look out in the coming summer. This is just common sense beekeeping.

P.S I treated in almonds then had to double back in first week in June.


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

yes common sense. thats why we treated 2-3 times in the spring before honey supers went on. and 3 times in the late summer. Using formic and OTHER things.


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