# Walt’s Nectar Management Questions and Clarifications



## allrawpaul (Jun 7, 2004)

*Yo*

You should expect the bees to swarm in spring as reproduction is their goal. Unless swarm prevention measures are taken, every single hive will swarm(at least all mine will), and some will swarm several times. Of course some strains are supposedly less swarmy than others, and new queens swarm less too. A clipped queen cant swarm, but she can be superceded. There are many challenges to face as a beekeeper. Keeping the colonys healthy and strong is the greatest. Preventing them from swarming is number two. I havent been hugely successful in preventing swarms so I wont adivise you in that area. Best of luck! Paul.


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## Dale Hodges (Jul 13, 2007)

Steve, I'm not sure if Walt would approve or not, but every beekeeper doesn't have a store room full of comb. That doesn't mean you can't practice swarm prevention. Simply stated: What Walt is doing is "opening up" the brood chamber. When the bees "see" all of that capped honey upstairs they assume its the "ceiling".They "think" the hive is full and make preperations to swarm. I've used foundation to "checkerboard", as long as you put it between two capped frames you shouldn"t have any problem. Would comb be better? Of course. But is a few frames of foundation better than swarming? I think so. In my experience if a hive comes out of winter with a full super of honey on top of the brood chamber, it will swarm at the drop of a hat.


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

Yes, there are other methods of swarm prevention like mentioned above. You will need to keep the brood nest open and room for the queen to lay.

But with that said NM was a method of swarm prevention that Walt was looking at and noticed that his honey yields also increased significantly. The down side is--- you need the drawn comb to start . Been there done that had to wait a whole extra year to get started.

Never tried it but after you have comb drawn, after white wax has started, alternate what you have at this point and add the foundation above. The key in NM is adding the foundation after white wax!!!


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## kenpkr (Apr 6, 2004)

*Try splitting both hives*



Steve717 said:


> So many questions
> 
> Should I expect my hives to swarm next spring? One is very strong right now but both will only be second year hives. I do not have any frames of comb to use for Nectar Management.


You could split both hives next Spring when you notice them getting crowded with nectar and brood. That way you have the ability to make more comb and have a place (2 other hives) to move those frames of nectar or brood to alleviate congestion in the 2 original hives. Just be careful not to move your queens with those frames. Spend the winter reading up on splits. There are a lot of variations. M Bush's site has a good blurb on splitting. 

I've been converting my hives to mediums so I've had some experience with getting the queen out of my deeps. I think that it's best done in the summer when outside temps are warm enough so that brood won't get chilled. In other words, move the deep that might have brood in it (but no queen) up a level or two then put a queen excluder below it. This is the way I did it. There are probably other ways.

Good luck.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

From Roy

Steve717,

I will print this and your PM for Walt.

BTW, Walt NEVER uses a queen excluder. Read why in POV on this site here:

http://www.beesource.com/pov/wright/bcapr06.htm

and here:

http://www.beesource.com/pov/wright/bcjune06.htm

For those who don't know, Barry has been working hard to get all of Walt's past articles up in POV. So far he has 30 of Walt's 37 articles up.

Way to go, Barry!!!

Roy, from me


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Steve717 said:


> ...Should I expect my hives to swarm next spring? One is very strong right now but both will only be second year hives. I do not have any frames of comb to use for Nectar Management.
> ...


From Walt:

Steve717

Second year colonies have the option of emerging from winter in the establishment mode if they perceive that they did not complete establishment in the first year by filling their cavity space with comb and stores. They will, if they can, complete establishment and prepare to swarm - given enough calendar time before repro c/o. The clue to this option is early wax making capability.

Those that completed establishment in their first season emerge from winter with swarm ambition. Sounds like you might have one of each, if the least strong still has some foundation, undrawn, but that's unlikely, if they both have 10 frames of honey. Expect them to swarm, if they have a cluster of basketball size in a late winter and field forage prior to early march.

Walt


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Steve717 said:


> ...I understand Walt’s recommended configuration of hive bodies from the bottom up is a pollen box, a deep, medium, medium, etc. I currently have 2 hives which consist of 2 deeps each. How and when should I reconfigure my hives from 2 deeps to one deep with mediums above? I understand that next summer is a good time to move a medium brood box to the bottom for a pollen box.


From Walt:

Steve717,

The editor of the magazine did not use the sketch submitted with the article showing only shallows and a single deep. What was published looks like two mediums at the top. That's not what we recommend. If you have already acquired medium wooden ware, use them for honey supers. A corrected version of the article can be found in the POV area of this site.

The pollen box maneuver is accomplished in the early build up brood nest expansion period. See the 9/24/07 post in the “Walt Wright's Ongoing CCD, Disappearing Disease, Fall Dwindling thread” (http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211434&page=13). A few of this year's observations are incorporated in that entry that dictate revision of the text of the original article. To be completed in the future, if I should survive to get it done.

How to get from double deeps to the recommended single deep with shallows is still owed for those interested. Have been negligent in that respect. Your question deserves an answer. Kenpkr's response of 10-26 in this thread is valid if you don't mind doubling your hive count. If you prefer to remain at two hives, only, until you get more experience, you will need another route. The following is general in nature such that the text can be used again in some other application. Before closing out the CCD thread, it may be posted there. Better late than never!

We have been negligent in providing a way to get from double deeps to the recommended wintering configuration of a single deep and shallows. There are multiple ways to accomplish the change, but those addicted to the double deep have shown little interest in making the change on my recommendation. Perhaps a short list of advantages would help convince the skeptics.

a. We made the change to move to the pollen box maneuver. Wintering in double deep, some colonies filled the bottom deep with pollen and wintered in the upper. The pollen box maneuver was incorporated in the management strategy to encourage all colonies to store long-term pollen when available in the spring season.

b. The pollen reserve resulted in more reliable wintering. All colonies emerged from winter with cluster sizes that generated production strength colonies. No winter losses and no feeble colnies that needed extra attention in the spring.

c. The fringe benefits include never having to lift a deep of honey, the brood is reliably maintained in the basic deep chamber, and brood is lighter in weight than capped honey. A secondary advantage is knowing where the brood is located for application of mite treatment.

d. Use of shallows of honey for late winter brood nest expansion does not impede that process noticeably. In late winter, the colony is motivated by the urge to reproduce. Strong motivation!

e. Use of shallows for the wintering overhead honey reserve simplifies breaking up that reserve for swarm prevention. Use of an upper deep can get complicated. The beekeeper must resort to taking splits, dividing, or a third deep to break up the solid honey barrier to expansion that initiates swarm preps. Most beekeepers with double deeps apply reversal for swarm prevention, but that technique has some problems of its own.

At the time we moved to the recommended single deep and shallows, there was drawn comb inventory on hand. Late in the build up, when the colony population was sufficient to protect the brood in both deeps, a shallow of drawn comb filled with nectar from above was inserted between the deeps. That shallow would normally change to mostly pollen to feed the brood above and below. That's just more evidence that the colony prefers to rear brood on deep frames. They are reluctant to stop rearing brood in the top deep after separation with a shallow, and sometimes a second shallow was added between the deeps. Eventually, perhaps two months later, as a result of brood reduction, they stopped rearing brood in the upper. The upper deep, formally brood, would gradually be filled with nectar. That leaves you with the dilemma of what to do with that deep of honey. It's not marketable if it was lower while harsh chemicals were applied. It can be extracted for subsequent use as bee feed, or stored in comb for later use on starter colonies.

Note that all cells in the raised deep will be recycled more than once in that deep. The only contamination with chemicals of that honey will be what was absorbed into the wax and then given up into the nectar when filling the cell. Having no data on that aspect, and wishing to be on the safe side, we separated that honey from honey for sale. I suspected that a test of that honey for chemical content would show levels below detectable, and adding to marketable honey would dilute it further, but I'm not recommending that you take that chance.
For the beginner with only foundation to work with, a different approach to change configuration is offered. I have not personally tried the following approach, but intuatively I would expect it to be effective.

Background: The starter colony that fills their cavity with functional comb and stores in the first season emerge from winter with swarm ambition. Adding foundation above is often ignored and swarm preps start below. This is particularly true of the double deep that has a full deep of honey overhead. They expand the brood nest into the deep of overhead honey, stopping short of their honey reserve, and start swarm preps by backfilling the upper brood volume with nectar. 

The exception is the colony, housed in a single deep that has brood to the top bars through the center frames. Given foundation at the top, they will have bees collected above the interbar area and often double clutch down into the establishment mode. They start wax making early, and expand brood into upper deep. If they meet swarm requirements in time, they can still swarm. Note that perception of unfilled space above caused the colony to shift to establishment mode.

Options are limited for the second year colony with substantial overhead honey coming out of winter. It's almost necessary to resort to hive body reversal for swarm prevention. Reversal is effective for two to three weeks and is often done periodically at that rate. Done more than twice, reversal loses effectiveness and overcrowding swarms are possible. Although over crowding swarms can be offset by adding drawn comb above, the beginner has none on hand.

An approach that I think might work follows:

1. Monitor brood nest expansion for those that wintered in the lower deep. Those that have brood in the upper and the lower is basically empty should be reversed in late winter. Again, monitor for brood nest expansion into the raised empty. Note that the raised empty will typically fill with brood faster - less honey to consume for brood nest expansion.

2. In either case, note the date when the brood expansion dome reaches nearly to the top bars of the top deep. At that point, they have reached maximum brood nest expansion and will soon start brood nest reduction. Nectar is used to replace the brood in the upper as the first step in swarm preps.

3. Allow two weeks to take advantage of some hatchout from that maximum brood volume. This will give them ample bees to protect two separated deeps of brood.

4.Reverse hive bodies and insert a shallow of foundation between the two deeps, and another above the top deep. This upheaval of the brood nest should cause them to kick down into the establishment mode and start early wax making. If they start drawing foundation in either added box, you are likely out of the woods on swarm prevention. 

5. Add foundation at the top, as required.

6. Add another box of nectar between the deeps, if necessary.

Discussion:

The colony in the establishment mode is highly motivated. A colony with 50 thousand bees in that mode can really put on a show. Be prepared for a good production of honey.

Try the above on a limited sample only. If it doesn't work for you, let me know. However, it shouldn't hurt the colony performance in the worst case scenario. Precautions are factored into the sequence offered.

Walt


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## Steve717 (Sep 23, 2007)

Walt and Roy,

Thanks for all the information.

I'll report back in the Spring.


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## allrawpaul (Jun 7, 2004)

Yes, thanks Walt and Roy! And thanks for all you incitefull articles, Walt! That is a great plan on how to incorporate foundation into nectar management! - by adding a shallow of foundation between reversed brood boxes, two weeks after maximum broodnest expansion, and another shallow on top. Now, if I can only recognize the point where the brood nest expansion is maximized and backfilling begins! That is the challenge for me. This system makes a beek pay close attention to what the bees are actually doing within the hive. Everything depends on awareness. I can see that I relied far too much on guesswork in the past. for now on, I am going to try to be mindfull of exactly what size the brood clusters are, what mode of operation each hive is in, when repro swarm cut off is and how close the colony is getting to the top super.Walt, I am amazed that you had only 2 swarms in 10 years of nectar management! I may have averaged 2 swarms a week for a two month swarm season just last year! Cant wait to try nectar Management! I will report my results! Thanks again, best of health to you! , Paul.


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## Flyman (Jun 11, 2007)

*Pollen Box*

I hate to ask such an elementary question, but what size is the "pollen box". In the manuscript and the POV's I can't find whether it is a 6 5/8 or a 5 11/16 or something I'm not familiar with Thanks to anybody who can help


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## summer1052 (Oct 21, 2007)

Flyman, I may be totally wrong,  but I *think* a 'pollen BOX' is the same as a 'pollen TRAP', and it fits outside / between / around the entrance and first super.

If I'm wrong, I plead guilty to having only the best of intentions. 

Summer


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

*Pollen Box*

The pollen box that Walt refers to in his manuscripts is a shallow super. It starts as a shallow above the deep (he uses deeps for brood chambers) and after it is filled w/brood it is moved below the deep on the bottom board. Walt has found that the bees do not perfer to use the shallow on the bottom board below the deep to further rear brood and as it emerges they will replace the empty cells w/ pollen. After the shallow is full of pollen He leaves this shallow of pollen @ the bottom board and the bees will us it later in the season to raise (feed) brood. At the beginning of the NM season very late winter early spring (approx 8 weeks before white wax) if the box is empty you rotate it back above the deep during your first manipulation and start the process all over again.


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## Flyman (Jun 11, 2007)

Thanks SC, I use only BeeMax hives and a shallow super is not offered in that line. Do you think a medium super would matter? If it matters, I can probably cut down a BeeMax medium. There is a big flange at bottom that I can trim off the required amount without affecting structural integrity too much.


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

Sorry Flyman but I can not answer that question . Maybe Roy (walt's son-in-law) will pick op on post and offer an answer. 

With that said, however: See this from reply 8 of this post:

>The editor of the magazine did not use the sketch submitted with the article showing only shallows and a single deep. What was published looks like two mediums at the top. That's not what we recommend. If you have already acquired medium wooden ware, use them for honey supers. A corrected version of the article can be found in the POV area of this site.

I believe Walt chooses to use deeps as brood chambers and shallows for others. Maybe someone here has used NM with mediums and can offer their insight.

Also see this thread http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211434&page=7 reply #62 for a description of this beekeepers pollen box manipulation and his opinions on why he uses deeps and shallows. Here's a partial excerpt from that post:

>As the season progresses, the brood nests will expand upward through the shallows (important to note the difference between expanding and relocating: during this expansion the base of the brood nest remains in the deep, sometimes including all 9 frames). When the shallow directly above the deep has at least 5 frames of brood, I put it to the side and inspect the shallow that is below the deep. Most of the time this shallow is empty, and if so I remove it and replace it with the shallow of brood. The empty is used upstack as a super. Occasionally the brood nest has been expanded into the lower shallow. In this case I just put everything back as it was.




Hope this helps GOOD LUCK!!!


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## Flyman (Jun 11, 2007)

*Think I Understand*

Thanks SC Bee, I reread the link you posted and I think I understand why Walt uses the shallow supers. Not a problem, being an old NASA guy (space shuttle) can-do and "figuring it out" are my by-words. Look to have a great upcoming season of testing and learning.

Flyman


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

Flyman---NASA, so that's where the screen name fits in. I believe Walt's background is also NASA. Give him a call you will enjoy talking to him . Bee it BEE"S or Spaceships  !!!


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## Steve717 (Sep 23, 2007)

Success!! They are building honeycomb.... Thanks Walt.

*Hive 1 * (The weaker of the 2.) 

Back in January I looked at each hive closely and found a total of one frame of brood and 5.5 frames of honey in this hive. I should not have put a second deep brood chamber on this hive last year as they had not built out the honey comb on the first brood chamber. I’m learning. 

March 1, the temperature was 68 degrees. I opened the hive and found the queen has been laying eggs in both deeps with the brood patterns good and plenty of pollen. I reorganized the 2 deeps by placing all the frames with brood or honey in the lower deep. When I was done only one frame with a small amount of honey remained in the top deep. There was good brood pattern. I inserted a shallow super in between the 2 deeps. The honey was getting low so I set a hive top feeder on top and filled it with 2 gallons of 1:1 syrup, with the recommended amount of Honey-B-Healthy. 

To clarify, from the Screened Bottom Board on up there is a: deep, shallow, deep, hive top feeder, cover.

March 12 I inspected the hive today. Everything looks great, for the first time since I bought these nucs in late May 2007 I have bees on every frame of the bottom deep. The shallow has bees on most of the frames and they are making honeycomb!! They are using the syrup. Some of the honey comb in the shallow has syrup.


*Hive 2* (the strong hive.)

In January this hive had 2 to 3 frames of brood and 6 frames of honey.
March 1, this hive had brood in both deeps. The upper deep had brood almost to the top with very little honey left between the brood and the top. Good pollen stores. I inserted a shallow super between the deeps and added a hive top feeder with 2 gallons of syrup and HBH. Afterwards, I thought I may have done this early and was concerned the brood would get chilled because of lack of bees to keep it warm on the cold nights.

To clarify, from the Screened Bottom Board on up there is a: deep, shallow, deep, hive top feeder, cover.

March 12, this hive is strong, the syrup is gone! They had already stored it in honey comb in the top deep and the shallow. The capped brood in the top deep that I found on March 1 was gone and instead there was larvae developing. The shallow had 8 frames of honeycomb with syrup in some of the frames. I added another shallow super above the existing shallow. I removed the hive top feeder. The syrup they stored may get them into the nectar flow in a few weeks, I’ll watch closely. 

This hive is configured; SBB, deep, 1st shallow, new shallow, deep, cover.

The Bradford pears are blossoming right now. The red bud trees are just starting to blossom. Spring is just around the corner and these bees are ready.

Thanks Walt for all your knowledge, you are and inspiration.


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