# New Guy - New to Beekeeping



## Top Bar (Jan 9, 2014)

Hello everyone! I am new to the forum and new to beekeeping.

I have made the decision to start out with Top Bar hives. I have ordered my bees (to be delivered in April) and I am working on making my hives this winter. 

I look forward to contributing and learning from everyone here.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Welcome Top Bar. I just started into beekeeping myself summer 2013 with one TBH. For Christmas I received 3 more. If it's not already in your plans, you should make at least one hive with an observation window. It's been so much fun this winter being able to watch them work.


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## Top Bar (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks Ruthie! I am definitely putting windows in. I was going to start with 1 with package bees, build another one and try to catch a swarm, but my Father-in-law decided he wanted me to build 3 hives for him. So I will be starting with 4.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

welcome aboard. 4 hives is a lot to start with as any mistakes usually are quadrupled. not to say one cannot do it. it has the advantage that even with a 75% winterloss you will not be left beeless. Good luck and enjoy the bees.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I got my start in the summer with a foundationless nuc that a local beekeeper did for me. Very easy transition since the spring flow was over. I got to watch them gradually build up. I understand that a spring start is very different. It's full steam ahead the minute you dump them in the box. You might want to see if you can stagger the delivery dates of the packages so you can steal a few drawn frames from the first hive. Otherwise, just be prepared to monitor them weekly. (watching them thru the window daily). It's a ton of fun and very educational. Depending on your hive dimensions, Beeline Apiaries sells a TBH division board feeder that goes inside the hive that you might want to consider (or copy the design). I found that worked SO much better on the young hive than the open bucket of syrup with pine needles. I drowned way too many bees for my liking.


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## Top Bar (Jan 9, 2014)

That's what I'm worried about Tenbears. But, I am a pretty thorough researcher, and I am learning all I can before we actually get the bees. Thanks!


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## BeeGora (Oct 22, 2013)

Welcome. You're going to enjoy having bees. I started in 2013 with one TBH and it's been a great learning experience (plus a lot of fun). Got a late start last year and missed most of the spring harvest so there wasn't enough honey for me and the bees this winter (they have priority). I'm getting a second hive this year and an earlier start so hopefully there'll be honey next year. Make sure all your hives have the same dimensions, particularly your bars and divider boards so that you can swap them around easily. I would recommend Les Crowders book on TBH beekeeping "Top-Bar Beekeeping". This book was a huge help in getting started. He recommends side entrances on one end of the hives (not in the middle). He also has a website www.fortheloveofbees.com/. Good luck!


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## Top Bar (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks for all the advice! I really appreciate it. 

I am using the plans for the Golden Mean hive from backyardhive.com . It has an entrance on one end. All dimensions will be the same.


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## TheGeneralsBees (Feb 17, 2013)

ruthiesbees said:


> ...the open bucket of syrup with pine needles. I drowned way too many bees for my liking.


I use an open bucket (garbage pail actually) with mesh screen attached to the inside wall and have nearly zero drownings (but I did have many when I too used pine needles).


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## TheGeneralsBees (Feb 17, 2013)

Welcome to beekeeping - you will enjoy it. I would suggest having at least one extra hive. If you read the posts from the springtime you will see that many of the first year top bar hive beekeepers had difficulty keeping their bees from swarming. Depending on the nectar flow etc, they can easily end up with more bees than comb and get the urge to swarm. If you have an open hive you can split them, raise a new queen and voila! two hives from one. Certainly that was my experience. The package that I installed on April 20th was two hives by June 22nd - just 60 days. Both were very strong going into winter.

Have a great time.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Thanks for the idea. I'm thinking the bees just went crazy over the syrup because I had added Anise oil to the mix. At first I thought it was robbing, but I only have one hive and they weren't really fighting, just scrambling all over it. I also tried a modified boardman feeder, but some days I also had lots of bee death. I'm working on a slightly different design this year that looks more like a "bird house" in the tree that will hold a half gallon mason jar so there is no board on the bottom for them to get all backed up on. Also trying to "hide" the feeder from the neighbors, as the hive and feeder is in the front yard and they get a little worried when there are hundreds of bees flying around a syrup feeder. And of course, it has to be "pretty". (If you've seen my hive on FB, it has spindle legs so the accessories have to be fancy as well)


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## Life is Good! (Feb 22, 2013)

Welcome to the forum! 
Lots of amazing information here, lots of great folks giving sound advice - all to the betterment of your beekeeping capabilities. You've found a great spot to learn in!
I don't know how much reading I've done over the past 3yrs - 2yrs before I actually got bees - but all that education has helped me tremendously. Especially since alternative beekeeping isn't that much talked about in my neck of the woods. 
The best thing I've done is to learn from folks a zone each way away from me....a zone south for summertime advice; a zone north for wintertime help. So when I read a post, I'll often read where they're located (it's in the signature box above each post on the right margin). 
Good luck with the adventure! By the way, I highly recommend 2 windows on each hive - one on each side. That way, you'll be able to see what's going on on both sides of the hive! It's helped me tremendously - except when the high humidity of summer caused the windows to not be operational due to the swelling of the paint! Whoops! I got 'em unstuck - but not before the girls had cross-combed only on the north side of the hive? Never dull!


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## bkristanne (Sep 25, 2013)

Enjoy your new hobby!! I started with a top bar hive this summer as well... winter has been nerve-wrecking since I don't know what to expect really  

Having multiple hives is an awesome advantage! I would have been so lost if my Grandpa and sister-in-law didn't start a hive either. It's amazing how different all three of our top bar hives were this summer! Have fun!!! I have thoroughly enjoyed it so much! 

This forum has helped me so much too, so I'm glad you found this site! : ))


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Welcome!!

How long will your hive body be? Mine is around 46" long. Seems I've seen posts on that hive tending to be too short to get much honey and the bees swarming more often. I think there have been some posts on it and last year someone did a poll on hive length (as well as one on depth and bar length).

Update: I bumped a Golden Mean thread so you could have a look and see what I was getting at. Seems easy just to make it longer. If I find the poll thread on length I'll bump it too.


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## fruitveggirl (Mar 8, 2013)

Welcome to the forum! I started beekeeping this year, and I've learned so much from the people in this group. Hope you have a wonderful experience with your bees!


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## Top Bar (Jan 9, 2014)

Colleen O. said:


> Welcome!!
> 
> How long will your hive body be? Mine is around 46" long. Seems I've seen posts on that hive tending to be too short to get much honey and the bees swarming more often. I think there have been some posts on it and last year someone did a poll on hive length (as well as one on depth and bar length).
> 
> Update: I bumped a Golden Mean thread so you could have a look and see what I was getting at. Seems easy just to make it longer. If I find the poll thread on length I'll bump it too.


Thanks Colleen! 

I bought my plans (and top bars) from backyardhive.com. 

Dimensions: 36" L x 19" W x 9" H
(top bars are 18" in length)

I hope that's long enough. It seems to be longer than some of the hives they are talking about in that thread.

Wouldn't you mess with the Golden Mean ratios by changing the length?


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

I think that length will be fine the first year but after that it will be tough to keep the bees from swarming. Read this thread where someone builds the same hive you are and then comes back and posts an evaluation. It should help you decide which way to go. (I bumped it last night but evidently the moderator didn't like that.)

If you were only making one to start with it wouldn't be that big a deal, but since you are making four I hate for you to do all that work and not be happy with them. The poll showed most use just under 4 feet so they can use 8' board (less waste). Yes, it will taken away the Golden Mean ratio but ultimately which is more important, form or function?


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## Top Bar (Jan 9, 2014)

Thank you very much! The weird thing is that I keep seeing people mention different measurements in that thread. I saw 26" long, 30" long, etc. 

Did Corwin Bell modify these plans to be longer at some point or are they just off on their measurements?

The plans I received are for a 36" long hive. Maybe I should just bump it up to be safe.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Top Bar, for more honey production, I'd recommend extending your box past the 3ft. I bought my 45" TBH from Beeline Apiaries. They sell the individual top bars for a lot less than backyardhive.com. It's a slightly different shape than the triangular ones. Cost is .90 per bar and they have 2 widths. They have distributors all over, or you can order direct from them. Can't figure out how to attach the pdf of their 2014 catalog, but they are happy to email you one.

Beeline Apiaries & Woodenware
269-496-7005
beeline (at) abcmailbox (dot) net

I can't say enough about how well I like my hive. I've even ordered just the end pieces and top bars to build a few more of my own (and nuc boxes). But for $165 per unassembled kit, you almost can't beat the price by building one yourself.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Top Bar said:


> Thank you very much! The weird thing is that I keep seeing people mention different measurements in that thread. I saw 26" long, 30" long, etc.
> 
> Did Corwin Bell modify these plans to be longer at some point or are they just off on their measurements?
> 
> The plans I received are for a 36" long hive. Maybe I should just bump it up to be safe.


I'm not sure if they changed or have different versions or what. My hives are a different style. I just have surfed here enough that I remembered the length complaints.

I would extend it. Better safe than sorry. Mine measures 44.25 inside end to inside end. Last June I had to do an emergency split because they swarmed so I put a solid follower in near the far end, opened an entrance down there and put bars with queen cells plus stores in. That split bought me time to finish another hive and gave me the best queen of the lot. It is great to have options! Now I have my new hive split into three nucs with only three empty bars remaining in the hive body. I have plans to make a few new hives soon for those colonies to expand into this spring (if they overwinter successfully).


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## TheGeneralsBees (Feb 17, 2013)

Top Bar said:


> The plans I received are for a 36" long hive. Maybe I should just bump it up to be safe.


You can make any length work. Mine are 36" - I like them. I made 18" boxes for my nucs - I like those too. I patterned my 3' hive after Wyatt Mangum's (you can get his book here - excellent book). He runs 200 top bar hives, has been keeping bees since he was 10. Most of his hives are 3'. He also uses 2' hives for pollination and has some up to 5'. 

The way I figure it is that bees will live pretty much anywhere they can find a suitable space. They are not terribly picky about the length, we are. Have fun.


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## HappyBeeing (Apr 6, 2013)

Corwin's plans have always been the same 36" and they are too short. Other people are guessing at sizes or changed it.
We bought the plans you have OP-Top Bar, and used them.
The thing is that spacers for honey and a false back inside, put you down to only 17 or 18 bars. They are bigger bars/combs than most TB plans but still not big enough. PLEASE read what I said as a summary of MY full year's experience's on the Golden Mean thread. A G M is NOT good enough for the First year at all! NO WAY. MAYBE IF you are in the Exact climate zone He Is or Colder/shorter season. It was my first year and my package overcrowded and swarmed out in TWO months in zone 8, after totally filling the hive with comb.Did you see that? 8 weeks to needing to split or lose your bees. I was in love with Corwin's idea and DVD too and I MOSTLY feel like a first-year gullible Sucker.! .....grumble..... The style Could have one or two useful purposes though....Another year and I'll know... I think I got a good queen-daughter from the mess, but won't know until I see if my winter cluster Lives.Only then will I have a reason to be pleased with that hive plan!
Not sure adding ONE foot would even be enough! HB -- with Only a Golden Mean my First year beekeeping-2013


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Three feet is too short. I can't tell you how long it should be, but I personally like 44 inches inside diameter width since it makes it easy to make an outer cover from a 4 foot piece of something. The golden mean hives are pretty looking (I guess that is the golden mean part) but I noticed last year that it seemed like there were a bunch threads that started out as "my golden mean hive just swarmed". I think that Les Crowder has plans for his hives on his site, that you could use if you need some help. 

If you are going to stick with TBHs (too soon to tell) one of the smartest thing you could do is come up with a comb size and standardize on that. It makes you hives interchangeable so if you are pressed to make a split or need to give some comb to a weak hive you know you can pretty much grab comb from any other hive. 

If you read Wyatt Mangums book he talks about how he got started with TBHs. There wasn't any beesource so he kind of was on his own. But he did make a template and every hive he has made since has been made to height, width and side angles as that first hive. It worked well for him through the years since he had interchangeability to any of his hives. 

You could make smaller swarm traps and move bars into hives, but then you wouldn't be able to use the boxes for splits/nucs, so I would recommend using the same size for all the hives.


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## Top Bar (Jan 9, 2014)

In a response from backyardhive.com, Here is what they said:



> There are many factors that exist when talking about bees swarming. The climate that the
> bees live in, the length of the nectar flow in the area, when the bees where established into
> the hive, how productive the bees are in laying, raising bees and collecting food and
> water for the colony, etc, etc.
> ...


Here is what their FAQ on swarming says:

http://www.backyardhive.com/kb/All_about_swarming/#swarm%20lure



> There are several contrasting view points concerning swarming. One is that swarming is to be avoided at any cost. Economics is the main motivation here; in a commercial setting, having half of the bees swarm off cuts production in half. The other concern is that the bees would not be successful in "re-queening,” or producing another queen. This would render the hive lifeless in a month.
> 
> In our bee guardian practices, we support swarming in our hives, especially in the first years. When a hive swarms, the old queen will leave the hive with a portion of the bees. The new queen will mate with 10 or so local drones and acquire genetic diversity from that area. From an ecological standpoint, swarming is a natural process. It makes the bees healthy and happy, promotes genetic diversity, and encourages them to be productive. Suppressing a swarm discourages the population growth of the bees. It also forces a higher number of bees to live in the same space. Cramped hive conditions produces stress which lowers the immunity of that community of bees. And finally, suppressing a swarm prevents genetic advancement. We love the concept that swarming helps to re-establish bees in the wild, thus maintaining the genetic diversity of the bee species.
> 
> ...


Since I am building 4 hives I think I will build 2 hives to spec - 36" long, and 2 hives at least 42" - 48" long, and see how they each do.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I love it when someone talks glowingly how wonderful swarms are. Yes, swarms are wonderful and is the way that a hive reproduces naturally, but when you put a hive in your back yard in a residential area and you cast off swarms you are potentially creating pest that can cost someone hundreds of dollars to remove. I'm not sure how getting localities to ban backyard hives due to the high cost of removing swarms is going to help backyardhive.com in the long run. It's hard enough to prevent swarms in a proper size hives, having a hive that is almost guarantee a swarm is just a way to torque off the neighbors.


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## Top Bar (Jan 9, 2014)

Good point!


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Sounds like a fair compromise. Hopefully you will post results after a season or two.

I purchased my first hive but built a temporary hive to start with because the purchased hive came with a busted viewing window. The temporary hive had some key differences because I used what I had on hand. It was the same width to take the same bars but it was shorter in length and depth. It didn't have a window and I used window screen on the bottom instead of #8 mesh. My experience with both of those hives drove some design changes for the hive I built to replace the 3' long temporary hive (I cut that one down into nucs). The key changes are it is cedar, has a solid bottom board, has a larger window with a hinged cover, and upper side-end entrances. Now I am using the lessons learned with both of those to design one to replace the purchased hive because the screen bottom doesn't work for me. The new design will have a Warre style quilt box and roof, be able to take 8 frame Langstroth medium boxes as supers, but retain the original KTBH box.

My point is that both experience (although I need a lot more of this!) and exposure to new ideas has sparked the desire to make changes despite how sold I was on the original hive concept. (I also should mention I work as an engineer so I tend to tweak designs...) It sounds like you are open to investigating other ideas and I think that will serve you well. Enjoy the journey!


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## Top Bar (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks! I am always open to suggestions. I may not decide to go with them, but I am open to considering them.

I definitely, don't want neighbors upset with me because a swarm decided to build in their walls or something!


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Isn't the quilt going to make it a pain to inspect?


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

shannonswyatt said:


> Isn't the quilt going to make it a pain to inspect?


I have been wondering the same if I make it a single box. I was thinking instead to make three quilt boxes so that I can take one or two off at a time when I inspect. I am hoping the fabric between the bars and quilt boxes helps too. Only way to know is to try it and see. I have considered just trying it out on a nuc first but really don't like the screened bottom on the original hive so want to replace it. I suppose I could tear the screen off and screw the bottom on more permanently to keep it for another year. That would give me time to test the hive concept.

Sorry Top Bar, didn't mean to hijack your thread!


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

So this is really going to be some comglomeration of a TBH, Long Hive and Warre. Are you going use top bars for langs in the TBH? How will the bees get up to the supper? If you just use the bars from a Lang how will you maintain beespace?


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## hideawayranch (Mar 5, 2013)

Hi there topbar
Welcome!
Top Bars are fun, keep a close eye on them for the first season. Sometimes they want to build comb every which way they can. After you feel your queen is happy check the hive often, don't let even one week go by without getting in there and making certain the comb is as it should be. Just a suggestion based on past experience.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

shannonswyatt said:


> So this is really going to be some comglomeration of a TBH, Long Hive and Warre. Are you going use top bars for langs in the TBH? How will the bees get up to the supper? If you just use the bars from a Lang how will you maintain beespace?


What I plan is similar to what Praxis did on this thread http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...e-Was-Bees-won-t-move-up-into-super-why/page2.

I'll answer the rest on a PM to stop hijacking Top Bar's thread.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I did something like that, but it wasn't a success. But I made the bars so the that they could be closed up by putting in wedges to block the access to the top. These weird bars have a decent use now. Put a couple in the brood nest and leave them be, but if you need to emergency feed in the winter you can remove the wedges and put a box on top of the hive with a sugar brick. Once of the hives I have didn't have nearly enough stores to make it through the winter, but they seem to be doing really well right now with the sugar brick on top in the box. I may incorporate these in other hives in the future.


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## Top Bar (Jan 9, 2014)

hideawayranch said:


> Hi there topbar
> Welcome!
> Top Bars are fun, keep a close eye on them for the first season. Sometimes they want to build comb every which way they can. After you feel your queen is happy check the hive often, don't let even one week go by without getting in there and making certain the comb is as it should be. Just a suggestion based on past experience.


Thanks! I am really looking forward to April!


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