# Mating Nucs



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I just got done reading Roger Morse (sp?) book on queen rearing and he mentioned that he uses a 5 frame nuc for his mating hive. 

He also recomends (cant think of the name right now) the feeder that fits into the hive and replaces a frame. 

Any ideas?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My favorite frame feeder would be the wood/masonite one from brushy mt. It actually takes one frame space and works pretty well. But I don't use any feeders in my two frame mating nucs. I put a frame of brood and a frame of honey in and the honey keeps them nourished. Feeding always seems to just put them at risk for being robbed. My favorite mating nucs are two medium frame nucs. I have split ten frame boxes into four of them before, but I think I'll start doing eight frame boxes into three of them instead. I've also split five frame boxes in half. Five frame nucs are nice if you have that many bees and brood to set up that many nucs. I have more than a hundred of them going at once sometimes. That would take five hundred frames of bees. Well if you put a frame feeder in it would take four hundred frames of bees.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

MB:

Do you..or can you... use a following board to split a 10 frame into 5 - 2 frame nucs? or take a following board and use to make a 5 frame nuc a 2- 2 frame nuc?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Whose MB?

If you asked me, which you didn't, I'd say you could if the entrances were isolated, you had oil cloth over each section and for what ever reason thought it wise to raise a bunch of 2 frame nucs.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Do you..or can you... 

I've given some thought to splitting a shallow super into 4 2-frame nucs using follower boards, with the center 2 nucs having entrances on either end and the 2 outside nucs having entrances on either side. Squeezing 5 would be problematic I think, where would you put the entrance?

I'll probably just stick with 2 5-framers in a shallow super- less confusion I think. I'm also planning on building some 2 frame nucs- I just happen to have a bunch of shallows with drawn comb so I thought I'd try it.

George-


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Whose MB?

I think MB is me.

>can you... use a following board to split a 10 frame into 5 - 2 frame nucs?

Some people do. I've tried it without any luck. In my experience the bees always find a 1/6" hole or larger somwhere in the bad fit of the follower and make it to the other side and kill that queen. So I notch them to get a tight fit. I cut a 3/8" deep by 3/4" wide notch front and back and put a divider in that goes into the notch. I also put a piece of canvas stapled on the dividers to make cloth "inner covers" that I can peal back one at a time to examine them. Otherwise they start spilling over to the next nuc when inspecting.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

what do you think about beeworks mating hive?

http://beeworks.com/usacatalog/items/item112.htm


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's one of the styrofoam baby nucs. The only three problems with them are:

1) how to get them started
2) how to expand if the queen fills them out and you don't have a place forher yet
3) and what to do with the brood in them at the end of the season

The big advantages is you can make a mating nuc with a handful of bees, so it takes less resources.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Michael:

I would love to build a mating nuc or device one out of what I have but at this time, I do not have the resources (building tools) to do so.

I do have, of course, deeps, westerns, inncovers, outter covers and bottomboards not to mention nucs.

So with that said, what is the easiest way to create mating nucs?

as mentioned before and as I see now, it does take a lot of 5 frame nucs to raise queens. 

Do you know of anyone that carries 2 frame nuc boxes??


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I have 5 or so nucs. I would love to make them into 2 frame mating hives. Is this possible? All I can think of is using a following board.

I am trying to work within what I currently have. I did find 2 frame nuc grom better bee at 17 per nuc.


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## george dilley (Sep 5, 2005)

chef you could use the following board and have an opening on oppisite ends for the ladies to fly out of


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## Carolina-Family-Farm (Aug 2, 2005)

>>>I would love to build a mating nuc or device one out of what I have but at this time, I do not have the resources (building tools) to do so.>>>

Hey Chef"
If you can draw out what your wanting or email me a picture I can build you a few, I have a small wood working shop and stuff like that is fun to build.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

First you need to decide what you want. Do you want a baby nuc? This can be easily made from all kinds of scrap lumber because it only needs to be about four by four by four and only needs top bars. You could even buy small, cheap styrofoam coolers and put top bars in them by cutting notches for the top bars on 1 1/4" or 1 3/8" centers. The problem of starting is that you have no comb yet and a handful of bees doesn't really have the resources to build a lot of comb nor the motivation without a lot of feeding and a queen.

If you want the size frames you use in your brood nest to solve the problems of starting (because you just give them a frame of brood and a frame of honey) then splitting a nuc seems like a plan. I just haven't had luck with keeping the two sides seperate with a follower board. I have had good luck with a divider in a groove. If you use 1/4" luan for the divider, then you can use two saw blades to cut the groove, or, if you have a steady enough hand, just make two cuts to get it wide enough. Or go to a construction site and find the scrap lumber to build one. Or, if you have enough nucs, just do the follower board and leave the other side empty. That way you don't care if a bee finds its way over there now and then.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I've seen one guy use a pierco plastic frame that has been caulked instead of a follower board. The nuc can get stronger. The thing I do not like with 5 frame nucs is that it takes a lot of bees to raise 1 queen. A strong double can get split into 6 at best to get queens. If you use a mini nuc you can stock 40 of them with the adult bee population from that same double. This is by far more advantageous if the intent is to raise queens for sale. If on the other hand you wish to use those queens for increases the 5 frame nuc is great. Once it is made up and the queen is laying your increase hive is going. You do not have to pull the queen and introduce her to your split. At this point you run the risk of the queen being rejected. FWIW I much prefer 6 frame nucs for making increases. They set an extra frame of brood in the summer, which in turn allows them to have a bigger population going into winter. They also have one extra frame of food for winter. In your new area Chef, these 6 framers do much better in my experience.

Jean-Marc


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

I've used a piece of 3/8" plywood as a follower board in a full size body. It was cut so it fit rather tight and just could be forced into place. It was cut so it stuck up from the top of the hive body 3/8" and two pices of 3/8" ply wood served as an inner cover, one on each side. It was crude but worked well and the plywood was free scrap.

I do prefer 5 frame nucs myself for queen rearing due to the poor weather we can have when I start in the spring plus I typically let the queens lay for awhile before pulling them. Later in the year I make up the 5 frame nucs only with two frames of bees and it works well. I use undrawn plastic for the extra 3 frames and the nucs typically build it out very quickly mid summer and I end up splitting nucs to keep their population in check.

-Tim


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

chef isaac ask:
So with that said, what is the easiest way to create mating nucs?

tecumseh replies:
I utilize three types of mating nuc. 

1) baby nucs (illinois deep) about which michael bush has defined the pros and cons. at the end of the early spring I simply stack the frames back into supers (with a 1 1/4 inch board that provides a frame rest at the center of the super). a small quatity of brood on one frame seems to make the bees stick better initially and therefore enhances acceptance.

2) old but usable deeps with follower board to divide deep into two four frame nucs. I attach a permanent bottom board (entrance at opposite ends) and use rigid foil backed foam board as the material for the follower board. I glue the rigid foam to the box.

3) since I make up the great majority of my own boxs I accumulate small drops in the process. I utilize these to build single entity 4/5 frame mating nucs (deeps and illinois depths). these are also the standard style mating nuc used by b weaver in navasota. I typically use hive stands for my bees which stands in contrast to the weaver that typically affix short legs to their mating nucs (which are then placed directly on the ground).


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

<Or, if you have enough nucs, just do the follower board and leave the other side empty. That way you don't care if a bee finds its way over there now and then.>

Worked for me. had plenty of boxes just sitting around. before i cut the plywood I made a cardboard model. Model worked so well I never got the plywood cut. thought they'd eat through it right away. Nope.

While I don't advise such careless beekeeping, Do as i say, not as I do.









Lot's of stuff works if you just give it a chance.

Hawk


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## bourdeaubee (Dec 23, 2005)

Small hives seem to over winter well even here in vt, as long as I baby sit them and feed alot.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

When visiting the B.Weavers, they used tiny little 2-chambered boxes as breeding nucs. I dont' remember much, but I'm sure the frames were half as long at best. I don't remember how deep or how many frames. And there didn't seem to be 2 fists full of workers womaning the nuc.

How do you get the comb drawn in such little frames since they won't fit in a full size hive? How many workers does it take to maintain a breeding nuc long enough to call it a success?

Other tips on getting one going please. I'm more interested in the smallest possible rather then setting up a whole 5-frame nuc, thanks.

Waya


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

waya:

To be honest with you, it is the cheapest and easiest way to go setting up nucs. I too ran into this problem when thinking of what I was going to use for a mating nuc. I bought a small baby mating nuc from a bee company that has like 4 small frames and a feeder. It is plastic. I havent used it yet.

I would take a five frame nuc and use split it into a 2 frame and three frame mating nuc. You can use deeps or mediums. 

This way it gives you complete flexability with equipment.


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

Why can't you just use a 5 frame nuc but only put in 2 frames? That way you can have all nucs the same size, yet get the advantage of 2 - 3- 4 or 5 nucs? Seems reasonable to me. No fallow boards, not exrta boxes, Just empty space by the frames.

Bill


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why can't you just use a 5 frame nuc but only put in 2 frames? 

Too much empty space is hard on a small number of bees. I have a lot of five frame ones divided in half to make two two-frame mating nucs.

Two medium frames isn't many bees and you don't have to fight with getting them to draw combs for the mating nucs.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I built alot of different style nuc boxes last spring. I used two basic styles, a single five frame stand alone, and a two five frame nuc in a standred deep body. The single five frame I put a solid bottom on, the double I put a full sbb (actually, I stapled the screen onto the bottom, and then placed cleats on to set it up off the ground). Both worked well. But the sbb double nuc did much better over the single. I orginally built two seperate migiatory covers, one for each side, then I also tried one big cover that covered both sides. I didn't place in the canvas inner covers as MB suggested. Keep in mind these covers just sat on top of the box. I didn't have any real problems with bees spilling over while inspecting them. But in retrospect, I was proably just lucky, and canvas inner covers are a good idea. Based on my experiments last summer, installing follower boards, if done properly, should work. Having a groove for them to slide in would be nice, be at times is just not doable. I would suggest putting screening on the bottom, stapled to the follower board, and having added cleats to hold it off the ground, I also had hive stands to set these on. If you use inner canvas covers as MB suggests, then you could even use the regular telescoping cover. Just some thoughts, sorry so long winded.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Ok, say I take and divide a 5-frame nuc, provide entrances for each compartment and deal with any security/ vandalism concerns... 

How do I finish the set up? I'm guessing the frame that contains the queen-cell(s) and another frame. What should it contain? mostly stores? capped brood?

Any good reading material in your arsenal for this?

Waya (who wished he had paid better attention in class, but didn't because I never thought I would care to breed)


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

wayacoyote sezs:
When visiting the B.Weavers, they used tiny little 2-chambered boxes as breeding nucs. I dont' remember much, but I'm sure the frames were half as long at best. I don't remember how deep or how many frames. And there didn't seem to be 2 fists full of workers womaning the nuc.
How do you get the comb drawn in such little frames since they won't fit in a full size hive? How many workers does it take to maintain a breeding nuc long enough to call it a success?
Other tips on getting one going please. I'm more interested in the smallest possible rather then setting up a whole 5-frame nuc, thanks.
Waya

tecumseh replies:
as to your first question see my comment 1) above. with baby nuc frames the end bars are standard and the tops and bottoms of the brames are simply scraps of 1" board (I want to say the top bar is 9 and 1/4 "), which I could check if you should so need. ideally 18 baby nuc frames fits in an illinois deep. if you place this in a good strong hive the bees will pull it out nicely and likely add one long natural build comb on the bar that sets in the middle of the super. I rubber band this comb into two empty half frames when I get ready to make up baby nucs (so a good hive will yield 20 usable baby nuc frames).

It usually takes about a pea can (for you yankee types that is not the same as a pecan) of bulk bees to make up these small mating colonies. one frame added to the nuc with some brood will help the bees stick to this small box. I ideally like to make these baby nuc a day ahead of queen cells, since a random number will 'blow out' in the process. a short stop along the way in the frig (4 to 6 hrs) also seems to decrease 'blow outs


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Ok, say I take and divide a 5-frame nuc, provide entrances for each compartment and deal with any security/ vandalism concerns... 

A canvas inner cover stapled down the middle is a good idea to keep them from spilling over when you open them up.

>How do I finish the set up? I'm guessing the frame that contains the queen-cell(s) and another frame. What should it contain? mostly stores? capped brood?

I'm doing the Jenter system. I have queen cells. So I put a frame of brood and bees and a frame of honey and bees in the nuc, wait over night and add the queen cell (of course you have to time setting it up so you're putting it in on the 14th day.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

tecumseh,
If I follow what you're saying, 
you make half-frames up, and run a cross peice half way through the hive to be the center support.

how deep are these hive bodies/ frames?

Do you make them up a day ahead of Starting queen cells, or a day a head of adding the mature (capped) queen cells? 

How do you get a queen to provide brood in them to "hold" the workers once you separate the frames into mating nucs? Or is that important at all?

What do you mean by "blow out" and a "short stop along the way in the frig"?

Thanks,
Waya


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## Ray Michaud (Dec 7, 2005)

Hey Chef
Walter Kelley makes a 4 compartment 2 frame mating box. Check page 28 of the new catalog it cost $28.00.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

We use a medium split 4 ways using 3 half frames and masonite feeder in each compartment. We usually stack these up when done in the summer. Then in spring break them down and put 1 frame brood in each compartment some bees and frame honey or empty to fill and add cell. I don't like these.
We also have the styro minis from Mann Lake they have 3 frames and built in feeder. We stock these with a cup of bulk bees and cell. Then leave them in the shop for a couple of days until the cell hatches so they don't drift. I like these.
The mediums usually don't get as high of % of mated queens do to drifting and accidental crossing over from compartment to compartment. They also take longer to stock. However you can leave the queen in longer and usually run 3 to 4 cycles through them before they are to big.
The minis get a good % of mated queens do to the single box I believe. If you fill the feeder with syrup they usually get the foundation drawn out if the weather is decent. I would like to hear from anyone using the styro mini mentioned above they are several dollars cheaper than Mann Lakes. We usually only get 2 queens out of each mini before they need shook out and restocked. When done at end of season we pull the frames and put them in the freezer.
That's how I do it.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Hi Nick I Bough me 2 of the 4 frame polyurethane mini nuc with built in feeder i really like them so i order about 40 more to give them a good try.I am getting into I.I. and like the round entrance one for just air, turn it then there is a hole that workers Queen or drones can enter and one is like a queen excluder in front and also the bottom . the vent on the bottom i like. the infeeder will hold just a bit over a pint.

I have use a 4 frame shallow size frame in depth but only about 1/2 the length with a wooden feeder in it. also i dipped in parfine and can just raise the front of the nuc and pour feed into the front. dont have any robbing because i feed right at dark time by morning it is all placed in the comb.

also use a Deep brood box sectioned off to make a 6PK with 3 frames each. works very well. can winter these. also the shallow 4 frames i wintered them also.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Velbert are you raising queens commercially in OK? If so are you in africanized area?


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## Janice Lane (Feb 5, 2006)

Any good books on I.I? I've been thinking about learning in case AHB's become a problem here in SC.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Nick I have sold a few Queens,Q cells to local Beekeepers. Have a web page but need to get it posted. was wanting to go to full time Queen Breeding. next year or so. Right now I am raising Russian Queens Going to cross these with NWC That I Got from Sue.Going to I.I some and also let Several Naturaly Breed. Haven't Found any in my County have found some 40 80 Miles away Just a matter of time. Sure am Dreading their coming. That is one of the Main reasons for learning I.I.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Hi Janice I Have a couple One is (Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding) Harry H Laid Laidlaw Jr. and Robert E Page Jr. Sue Coby Has a VHS Tape on I.I.Very good.If you can get the chance take Sue Coby 3 day class on I.I. I took my Vacation and went Last year. met a lot of nice Beekeepers.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

I just had a thought:

Anyone try cutting squares of permacomb to be used in a home-made mating nuc? Pros? Cons? Considerations?

Waya


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

wayacoyote sezs:
how deep are these hive bodies/ frames?
Do you make them up a day ahead of Starting queen cells, or a day a head of adding the mature (capped) queen cells? 
How do you get a queen to provide brood in them to "hold" the workers once you separate the frames into mating nucs? Or is that important at all?
What do you mean by "blow out" and a "short stop along the way in the frig"?

tecumseh replies:
well all my baby nucs are illinois deep depth (6 5/8 "). most hold a total of 4 frames (I use 3) and I have a few that are 5 frame. I like to allow some manipulation space which is much of a personal tick as anything else. 

I make the nucs up a day or two ahead of the queen cell being ripe. You want to shorten the total period that these devices hold bees and their new queens since they are quite fragile. the least little problem will make these units go south. 

to acquire brood in these half size frames I place a illinois deep on top of a boomer hive and feed if necessary. during even a modest flow the bees will pull out the wax much faster than you might think possible and the queen will typically begin laying in the combs to the center of this box first. I have the greatest success when one frame in these baby nucs has brood (green brood is best) in at least one frame. and yes this is important.

blow outs are nuc which when they set overnight have lost there adult population. a stop in the frig means I place these baby nucs in the refrigerator which chills the bees and makes them cluster. this frig is in my shop, although likely mizz tecumseh would not mind if I used the one in the house (there is a story there I quarantee). you cannot add too many boxs into a standard refrig without it adding too much heat (via the bees) to get any real effect.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

the last sentence in my prior post should read.... 

you can add too many boxs to the frig...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Anyone try cutting squares of permacomb to be used in a home-made mating nuc? Pros? Cons? Considerations?

Seems resonable. I would think you could also cut regular comb to fit and wax it in with a paint brush and some melted beeswax, or just tie it in.

But I'm pretty happy with the full length frames anyway. It simplifies my life.

I would just use top bars if I were doing smaller sized combs. Why build all those frames?


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Yes top bars!

I've built a couple shallow kenya top bar hives and plan to make mini-top bar mating nucs that will be feed comb and bees from the main top bar hives. Seems like queen rearing will use up a few hives each year, so there is no real reason to have all of those bees in Langstroth hives. Or so goes the plan. Dosen't look like I'll have enough bees to populate the top bars this year, with other goals.


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