# An interesting syrup mixing setup



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

In a large industrial mixer (not counting high shear mixers) you want the flow to go up the center and down the sides (it can be reverse flow) for the most efficient mixing. Typically this is done with mixing blades, one or two shafts in a stationary vessel. They do make horizontal mixers similar to the cement mixer I suggested except they are strictly horizontal. Because the cement mixer barrel is steel you could easily add a flame from a gas grill to warm the water up. However you are enthralled with the pump method. As long as the pump does not have close tolerances you won't run into trouble. The 3-way valve most likely will have the same port size if you see that as an advantage.
I would tend to go Marks way with a laundry washer in stead of the pump method though.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

I've been using hot tap water, 25 lbs of sugar and a paint mixer with my cordless drill. Works great you could likely do 50 lbs at a time with a little bigger bucket. Much cheaper than a sump pump.....BUT not nearly as cool!


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> I would tend to go Marks way with a laundry washer in stead of the pump method though.


I don't know what that might be but I can picture sugar sifting down through the drum and completely clogging the pump and bottom end of the machine. 

I'll pass on the washing machine and the cement mixer syrup systems.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

I don't see much value in this system. Mixing sugar and water is not very difficult to do my hand w/ a stick or paddle. Especially if the water is hot or boiling. 

I always boil my syrup. I use a turkey fryer burner with a stainless beer keg. The keg has a ss ball valve with dip tube at the bottom. The system is elevated to allow the finished liquid to be dispensed into buckets for feeding. I make 15 gallons of 2:1 at a time. 

This setup is popular and widely used in home brewing. Google brew keggle. 

Here is an example pic


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

thehackleguy said:


> Much cheaper than a sump pump.....BUT not nearly as cool!


If you got a mortor mixing blade you could do a 55 gal drum. Burns, I like the idea of a keg. SS is very easy to clean and takes a beating.


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> I would also use a 3-way valve instead of two separate valves.
> 
> I really like the idea of simply pumping the syrup into other tanks or in my case, 2 1/2 or 3 gallon jugs.
> That will be much nicer than carrying a pot containing 40 lbs of syrup outside and filling jugs through a funnel...


I like the 3-way valve idea, unfortunately they're not available on a Sunday in small town U.S.A.

I wouldn't use the boiler valve/washing machine hose over again if I was building another. It is too slow.

Maybe this winter I'll revamp it with a larger transfer system, and a water heater element threaded into the pipe work.

I'd love to see your pictures!

Speaking of which... I got syrup to mix.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

djastram said:


> I'll revamp it with a larger transfer system


I would consider using a length of 1" clear tubing with a ball valve on the end. 

Since I always make 5:3 syrup I believe that hot tap water will suffice with the pump swirling/mixing the solution.

It would be nice if a heating element could be avoided. I'd like to be able to "set it, and forget it".


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> I'd like to be able to "set it, and forget it".


It is pricey but an on demand water heater on the fill line will do what you want.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> It is pricey but an on demand water heater on the fill line will do what you want.


When using hot tap water in making 5:3 syrup, additional heat doesn't seem to be necessary so there's no need for an expensive heating device.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I got this tip by PM from another beekeeper...

_"A good formula for mixing syrup is 3 quarts water to 10 lbs dry sugar.
This formula will add about 8 lbs of hive weight. Mix any amount of sugar, using this 
formula.

Mix with cold or warm water in say a large trash can for 5 mins. Wait for an hour and 
mix well again. You can feel the syrup between your fingers and not feel grit of sugar.

I use this formula to mix 600 gals of syrup.
Hope this helps." 
_

It doesn't get much simpler than that. This results in 60% syrup which works great for fall (or any time) feeding as long as you don't wait too late. As an added bonus you don't need a model-t or a cement mixer.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You don't need a $30K conveyor pizza over to make pizza unless you need the rate of production. Many things can be done simply but time can be a factor and then simplicity goes out the window. BTW Barry deleted my post so I can't go back and check. I don't remember suggesting a model-t. This is a problem when other people reword my posts.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I can still read that post. Your words:



> So drive up in your model T with clean water in the engine block and hook up to a tank with sugar and water and circulate it through the engine.​


​


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

OK Barry thanks. I must have been in a joking mood.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

David LaFerney said:


> an added bonus you don't need a model-t or a cement mixer.


:thumbsup:


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## GSkip (Dec 28, 2014)

burns375 said:


> I don't see much value in this system. Mixing sugar and water is not very difficult to do my hand w/ a stick or paddle. Especially if the water is hot or boiling.
> 
> I always boil my syrup. I use a turkey fryer burner with a stainless beer keg. The keg has a ss ball valve with dip tube at the bottom. The system is elevated to allow the finished liquid to be dispensed into buckets for feeding. I make 15 gallons of 2:1 at a time.
> 
> ...


I like the keg idea, I have one already cut out I use to boil peanuts. What is a dip tube and how did you seal the pipe through the side of the keg.
Thanks in advance!!!


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

"So drive up in your model T with clean water in the engine block and hook up to a tank with sugar and water and circulate it through the engine."

What?? :lpf:


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I used to mix my sugar with hot tap water, but my mixing days are over until time to make bricks. Domino's (sugar not pizza) sells the left over sugar in their tank cars and trucks for $7 for a 5 gal bucket of about 2:1 syrup. I split it into 2 buckets and fill them with hot tap water, a splash of vinegar and a splash of HBH and I'm done.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

2:1 Recipe:
20# sugar 10# of boiling water (that's a gallon and a quart) 
Makes between 2 and 3 gallons of syrup, closer to 3.

Five gallon bucket, drill, and drywall mud mixer/paint stirrer.
It's not rocket science.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

aunt betty said:


> 2:1 Recipe:
> 20# sugar 10# of boiling water (that's a gallon and a quart)
> Makes between 2 and 3 gallons of syrup, closer to 3.
> 
> ...


That is exactly what I do......but I wish I had the tanker deal, that is an awesome price!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

thehackleguy said:


> "So drive up in your model T with clean water in the engine block and hook up to a tank with sugar and water and circulate it through the engine."


I got to thinking about what I said in another thread and came up with a better approach. You can buy a trans cooler and put it in line with your circulatory pump and then you could use any vehicle you want. Even switch it from one to the other.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> I got to thinking about what I said in another thread and came up with a better approach. You can buy a trans cooler and put it in line with your circulatory pump and then you could use any vehicle you want. Even switch it from one to the other.


You are an absolute genius!

And with using a rotary seal *YOU* could install a transmission cooler inside a cement mixer! This would finally get you the recognition you deserve.:gh:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Don't forget Ace's leakproof removable cover with the three way valve on the rotating drum of that cement mixer! :lpf:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>"So drive up in your model T with clean water in the engine block and hook up to a tank with sugar and water and circulate it through the engine."

Let's skip all the other problems, your primary one is that a model "T" (other than the first few hundred) has no water pump...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T_engine#Cooling_system


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

aunt betty said:


> 2:1 Recipe:
> 20# sugar 10# of boiling water (that's a gallon and a quart)
> Makes between 2 and 3 gallons of syrup, closer to 3.
> 
> ...


You are correct that this is not rocket science, but if you grow to the point that you need to feed 20-30 hives instead of 2-3 it is more challenging than you might think. If you just do your method 10 times it will take hours just to boil the water and make the syrup much less get it in the hives. The methods we are talking about are to make it possible to make a barrel of syrup with considerably less time required - preferably without requiring expensive equipment or antique cars.

I think the key tip for growing beekeepers is that 5-3 syrup is much easier to mix than 2-1 and still makes good fall feed if you time it correctly.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I can mix up 5 gallon buckets lickety split. The tough part is getting the water heated up. I might plumb in hot water to my garage and use that to make syrup because heating on stove two gallons at a time is BY far the bottleneck for me. Paint stirring paddle does a great job mixing the solution once the sugar is in.

Will be on the lookout for a really early years Model T so that I can give Ace's engineered solution a try.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

David LaFerney said:


> You are correct that this is not rocket science, but if you grow to the point that you need to feed 20-30 hives instead of 2-3 it is more challenging than you might think. If you just do your method 10 times it will take hours just to boil the water and make the syrup much less get it in the hives. The methods we are talking about are to make it possible to make a barrel of syrup with considerably less time required - preferably without requiring expensive equipment or antique cars.
> 
> I think *the key tip for growing beekeepers is that 5-3 syrup is much easier to mix* than 2-1 and still makes good fall feed if you time it correctly.


Thanks for bringing this back on topic.

I have a Little Giant pump that I'll clean up and and give a try in a 5 gallon bucket. The pump is an older version of this.

I could be satisfied with doing a 3 1/2 gallon batch on the stove and a second 3.5 gallon batch swirling around in a pail of hot tap water. But having to wait for syrup to cool would be a plus...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> Let's skip all the other problems, your primary one is that a model "T" (other than the first few hundred) has no water pump...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T_engine#Cooling_system


All the better Mike. It had a radiator and the engine was water cooled and flow did occur.


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

I am not sure if I've mentioned it or not.... I use cold water straight from the tap in my setup.

I'm certain hot water would be better, but this works good.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

The first test of the Little Giant Pump was a success. I'm guessing that I may have let the pump run for about 30 minutes; using hot (not all that hot) tap water. I left the pail covered in the garage (pump off) while I ran some errands. When I returned about two hours later I was welcomed by the sight of a pump and coiled hose sitting in clear syrup... 

It will definitely be worth a few dollars to improve the setup with some fittings....

Now I can make 7 gallons at once, 3.5 on the stove and another 3.5 in a 5 gallon pail.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I like the pump idea a lot. Especially because I could make a bigger batch and pump it out as needed.

Now I just need a bigger garage. 

Or better yet. Another garage.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> It will definitely be worth a few dollars to improve the setup with some fittings....
> 
> Now I can make 7 gallons at once, 3.5 on the stove and another 3.5 in a 5 gallon pail.


Why would you want to do it two different ways once you went through the cost of the pump and plumbing version?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Why would you want to do it two different ways once you went through the cost of the pump and plumbing version?


*Economy* of money and time. That's why. 

I already had the pump, and in fact, I won't be needing any fittings. A larger container for the pump setup would require a larger pump and fitting$. 

Soooo, while a hot batch is being prepared on the stove a pump-blended batch will be swirling around in a 5 gallon pail. Dividing the cooler batch between three of my syrup jugs with allow me to pour the hotter one into the jugs sooner which is another advantage....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> A larger container for the pump setup would require a larger pump and fitting$.


Plumbing for sure but not a different pump. If you were to add the cost of toilet float and maybe another valve you could have the syrup tank drain into the hot pot (level controlled by toilet float) and then use the pump to bring the water back to the syrup tank. With a thermostat you can shut off the heat source at the desired temp. Totally hands free. Size of vessels is unimportant.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Plumbing for sure but not a different pump. If you were to add the cost of toilet float and maybe another valve you could have the syrup tank drain into the hot pot (level controlled by toilet float) and then use the pump to bring the water back to the syrup tank. With a thermostat you can shut off the heat source at the desired temp. Totally hands free. Size of vessels is unimportant.


I wish you would stop posting on this thread. You are clearly incapable of understanding the simplicity of what I and a couple of others are talking about. 

Your posts here are not going to improve your reputation...

Bump up your post count on someone else's thread. 

Thank you.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> With a thermostat you can shut off the heat source at the desired temp.


I'm pretty sure that the 'heat source' that _BeeCurious _is referring to is an ordinary kitchen stove. I can't imagine what kind of thermostat you have in mind that could control a kitchen stove!


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

David LaFerney said:


> You are correct that this is not rocket science, but if you grow to the point that you need to feed 20-30 hives instead of 2-3 it is more challenging than you might think. If you just do your method 10 times it will take hours just to boil the water and make the syrup much less get it in the hives. The methods we are talking about are to make it possible to make a barrel of syrup with considerably less time required - preferably without requiring expensive equipment or antique cars.
> 
> I think the key tip for growing beekeepers is that 5-3 syrup is much easier to mix than 2-1 and still makes good fall feed if you time it correctly.


I am feeding 20-30 hives. 26 to be exact. Just weighed them all and only half need fed as of now. I'm going to feed 200 more pounds of sugar this fall. I think I have went thru 500 pounds up until today. Yeah, 500# of sugar and just bought 100 more last night.

I'm using ziplock bags to feed with. It's so much faster...they take down 6-8 pounds of syrup per day per hive. The lightest hive needs 25# added.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I'm pretty sure that the 'heat source' that _BeeCurious _is referring to is an ordinary kitchen stove. I can't imagine what kind of thermostat you have in mind that could control a kitchen stove!


Simple, Rader.

A thermocouple wired into a TC input card on an el-cheapo PLC. Some simple programming an a servo motor to turn heat up/down based on output of PID loop. Duh. Easy peasy, simple, and "hands off".



aunt betty said:


> It's so much faster...they take down 6-8 pounds of syrup per day per hive. The lightest hive needs 25# added.


You should try to feed them that 25 pounds all at once so you don't spend so much time and gas and hive trips.  Order paint cans this offseason and you'll never look back!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> A thermocouple wired into a TC input card on an el-cheapo PLC. Some simple programming an a servo motor to turn heat up/down based on output of PID loop. Duh. Easy peasy, simple, and "hands off".


That, along with the "toilet float", pump, associated hoses, etc - all tying up the kitchen stove - are enough to get "kitchen privileges" revoked for most guys. Possibly other sanctions as well!


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

aunt betty said:


> I am feeding 20-30 hives. 26 to be exact. Just weighed them all and only half need fed as of now. I'm going to feed 200 more pounds of sugar this fall. I think I have went thru 500 pounds up until today. Yeah, 500# of sugar and just bought 100 more last night.
> 
> I'm using ziplock bags to feed with. It's so much faster...they take down 6-8 pounds of syrup per day per hive. The lightest hive needs 25# added.


If it's working out for you mixing a few gallons at a time then that's great - I didn't mean to imply that you don't know what you are doing, but I do admit that I assumed you were only feeding a few hives by the method you described.


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## Trapper (Jun 19, 2005)

djastram, have you tried mixing a 2 to 1 syurp with the pump?


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

Trapper said:


> djastram, have you tried mixing a 2 to 1 syurp with the pump?



Yes. Last Sunday in fact. 200 lbs of sugar and 100 lbs of water, straight from the garden hose.


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## rv10flyer (Feb 25, 2015)

I have mixed 1600 lbs of sugar making 2:1 and 2.5:1 since Aug 1, feeding 25 newly formed hives on a poor nectar flow year. I use an outdoor propane burner and a 5 gallon pot. I mix the sugar and hot tap water, put the lid on, then turn the burner on low. After Siri reminds me 25 minutes later, I turn the burner off. It reaches about 215 F at a simmer and then I let it cool overnight. I have made about 50 batches. Now I know why my neck is hurting.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

djastram said:


> Yes. Last Sunday in fact. 200 lbs of sugar and 100 lbs of water, straight from the garden hose.


I have never heard of 2:1 syrup being made without heat...


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I have, but I think it takes a lot of agitation.

It's almost humorous to see responses to threads like this "I use an outboard motor, and I don't understand why you would use hot water..." or "why would you not just use a Mack truck radiator and a pid contoled pizza oven? Throw in some servo valves and a raspberry pi... it should be simplicity itself." 

I think it illustrates that there really is more than one way to skin a cat. Personally I like to know what works for other people so I can choose what will be most suitable for me with the resources I have - without reinventing the wheel. What could be done, or might be done is much less convincing to me than what someone has already been doing for years though.

It seems to boil down to this - you can mix up to 5-3 syrup without a lot of heat or agitation if you go about it right. When you go much past 5-3 you will need increasingly more heat and/or agitation. Heat and agitation = either more work, more money, or more complexity.


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> I have never heard of 2:1 syrup being made without heat...


Stop by in two weeks, you can help me feed Bees.


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## Trapper (Jun 19, 2005)

djastram, glad to hear it will handle 2 to 1 mix. I have a shallow well pump I was going to try, but would rather use a submersible pump. I think the submersible would hold up better. Jumped up from 35 hives to around 100 and heating water 5 gallons at a time doesn't hack it, lot of wasted time.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

This seems awfully simple. It's high school chemistry and pretty well covers why we heat the water. (supersaturated solution)
http://preparatorychemistry.com/Bishop_supersaturated.htm


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Thanks for that link; it explains why I can't make cold water dissolve twice its weight of sugar at my place. I was beginning to think my water was somehow different!


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

I do think it would be better with hot water. I plan to add a water heater element eventually.

When this pump goes out, I think I will also boost it to a 1/2 HP.

Or maybe a fire truck with a jet engine? Sorry.


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