# TBH swarm catching frames



## TX Ashurst (May 31, 2005)

I thought you might want to see this. It is a very simple idea. I wanted swarm catching frames for my TBH. I have a square box, so it is simpler for me than it will be for you folks with Kenyan TBHs, but it can be done.

This slide show shows the process, starting with a simple jig on my drillpress to position the 1/2" holes exactly where they will allow a beespace at each side of my hive. Then I glue in 1/2" dowel pieces about 8 inches long. After driving a 3 or 4 tacks on the sides of the dowels, I string wire all on ONE side and it's ready to go to the field. I crimped the wires at one end to tighten it up a bit. 

In use, I put frame flat with the wired side down and lay the loose/crooked/salvaged comb on it. I trim if necessary so the comb fits between the dowels, and run a wire back and forth over the comb and it's ready to go into the hive. In the photos of my frame, you can see that the bees are starting to attach the comb to the top bar. You might also notice that they are still determined to build odd comb, but the main part of it is nice and straight, where before this comb curved across 3 bars.

http://photoshow.comcast.net/watch/NM4gR8cx

Hope this helps.


----------



## Jon McFadden (Mar 26, 2005)

TX Ashurst,
Why would you want to use something special to catch a swarm?
Most of the time I get caught unprepared when a swarm call comes in. We caught 4 of our swarms using cardboard boxes this spring. On one day, we got a call while catching a swarm on the north side of town for another on the south side of town. After shaking the first swarm into the box, Will wedged the box into the tree as close as he could to the swarm. We went to the second swarm and captured it. We then returned to the first house and found the rest of the bees had moved into that box, so we collected it and headed home. The first swarm went into a TBH while the second went into a standard Langstroth.

[ June 03, 2006, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Jon McFadden ]


----------



## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

I know what he is talking about. I've heard them called that from the beginning. I've made and used them for Langs and TBH both. I've thought they should be called cut-out frames but i'm not one to mess with tradition started by any of The Masters.

Those are cool frames, easy to make, easy to use. The ones i made are hinged, I like that, very easy to use. Tough to make though, and they leak bees. Either that or they provide additional ventilation and an extra couple of entrances.  

-j


----------



## Jon McFadden (Mar 26, 2005)

Apparently this is a device I'm not familiar with. I tried to look at the slide show a couple of times, but got an error and it wanted to reload. I'm on a dial-up so it became too frustrating to try again. I would be interested in learning more if there is another reference.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.beesource.com/plans/swarmframe.htm


----------



## Jon McFadden (Mar 26, 2005)

Thanks Michael. I've seen these frames before. I didn't know what they were called. 
I just use string. I tried rubber bands and thought they were a good replacement until I got into a tight attic and found I could stay ahead of Will by pre-cutting string and laying them under the empty frame. The rubber bands knocked too many bees loose and wouldn't keep the comb in the frame when raised vertically. 
We've decided string is what we'll use from now on.


----------



## TX Ashurst (May 31, 2005)

I tried string and rubber bands but with only a top bar to tie to, the comb wanted to hang level instead of upright. By the time i got it in place everything in sight was covered in honey, wax, and dead bees. The dowels give it some rigity to hold the comb exactly where I want it. Once I got there, wire seemed like the easiest way to go, but certainly not the only way.

I agree they should be called cut-out frames, though.


----------



## girl Mark (Oct 25, 2005)

wow, what a great idea.

I just made some of the Conrad Berube-style chicken wire cutout 'frames' (at least I think they were in that Peace Corps TBH book, I know Berkey David just posted about using chicken wire too), and you're right about leaking bees when you try and assemble the hive afterwards - I used really thin chicken wire but it was still pretty floppy and difficult to fit everything back together tightly.

I think I'll try another method next time.

I also spent yesterday in the woodshop and made some Dee Lusby-style frames to match my sloped-sided TBH, and that's a painfully involved experience I wouldnt' recommend to non-woodworkers (unless you've got a straignt-sided hive in which case it makes tons of sense and shouldn't be too difficult for anyone to piece together. Incidentally I made them using the leftover strips from when I made top bars out of a 1x4- the little bit of junk wood left over after making two top bars out of scrap x4 lumber seems perfect for a Lusby cutout frame)

(I haven't wired or installed comb with them yet). 

Your dowel method seems better or easier than either of the above. I've got more of these cutouts to do so I"m going to try some of those tomorrow instead of messing with the chicken wire.

thank you for making up the slide show, looks like a great invention.

Mark

[ June 04, 2006, 02:36 AM: Message edited by: girl Mark ]


----------



## TX Ashurst (May 31, 2005)

Thanks, Mark.
Glad to help, especially you - since you have been a huge help in my bioD efforts.


----------



## Rich M (Apr 9, 2005)

Very nice idea. I have a Kenya style TBH (sloped sides) but I believe I can build these by angling my drill press table. Thanks for sharing, the photos were great.


----------



## girl Mark (Oct 25, 2005)

I was thinking you don't even need a drill press, just clamp the wood in vise and approximate the angle with a handheld drill. I havne't tried it yet though. It doesn't seem to me (again I'm new to the cutout frame concept) that we're really worried about bee space or anythign that requires precision woodworking here (or the chicken wire frames wouldn't work as well, since they make a total mess of bee space)

Thanks for the compliment, TxAsh.

Mark

[ June 04, 2006, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: girl Mark ]


----------



## Rich M (Apr 9, 2005)

I agree Mark, it could certainly be done with a hand drill. After all, we're talking about function rather than form. I'm sure the bees won't care if it comes out a bit crooked


----------



## shorts (May 7, 2006)

I think I like the idea of the dowels. I am going to try it to move bees into the top bar.... Thanks
have a great bee day Shorts


----------



## girl Mark (Oct 25, 2005)

Well, I gotta give my chicken-wire cutout frames two thumbs down, and I"ll be trying these dowel things shortly (I bought the parts to make them but gave them to someone else before I got a chance to see them in action).

The chicken wire cutout frames (I think I got this idea from the Peace Corps TBH book by Conrad Berube) really dont allow the bars to fit together well (so the top was really 'leaking bees'- they were really enjoying the convenience of a top entrance).

BeeBee and I just went into a cutout colony that I'd hived 2 1/2 weeks ago, and since the wire frames don't really fit tightly, there were all sorts of creative building projects going on in there- diagonals, horseshoes, etc. Trying to figure out how to get it straight again is challenging (I was out of town for two weeks or I'd have checked earlier).

Definitely going to do the dowel cutout frames next time around. The chicken wire ones do'nt hold the comb tightly enough in a straight plane because the chicken wire stuff is kinda floppy no matter how you construct them, so the bees start constructing diagonals in every possible dimension to fill the extra floppy space. 


Mark


----------



## girl Mark (Oct 25, 2005)

I saw another variation on these today.

My friend had put some brood into my queenless hive a couple weeks ago while I was out of town. Turns out he'd taken a top bar, screwed two LONG (5" or 6") screws into each end of the top bar in the same manner as you have your dowels attached, then wrapped some 28 gauge wire around the screws the same way you do it, to hold a piece of cutout brood comb (our hives are very different dimensions). It worked very well.

[ June 20, 2006, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: girl Mark ]


----------



## Rich M (Apr 9, 2005)

Thanks for the update Mark, that is the best idea yet. I'm going to give it a try this weekend. Glad I waited before I built anything.

Rich


----------



## TX Ashurst (May 31, 2005)

Long screws would work, but don't you have to hold the comb while you wrap the wire around it? Let's see, you hold the comb with one hand, then you hold the frame with the other hand, and then you string it in place with the other-other hand. Works if you have help.

By using tacks in dowels, you can string the wire on ONE side only, in advance. Then when you do a cut-out you can lay the comb on the wires and string wire over the opposite side of the dowels to hold the comb in. It lets you work with the frames laying flat on a work surface, and you can use both hands to string the wire over the comb.

I did a cutout last weekend. I was alone and it was easy - well the hanging the comb part was easy. I even laid comb with bees on it into a frame and the ones on the bottom of the comb (while it was laying on the wires) weren't bothered or squished, except for those few who got under the wires (oops). I couldn't have done it without the dowel frames or a helper.


----------



## girl Mark (Oct 25, 2005)

I think my friend did more or less the same thing- pre-wired a zigzag of thin wire across the two long screws, then laid the small comb on them, then wired a couple of pieces of wire across that to hold it in place. But it does sound like it'd be easier to do your way with tacks/nails already in place to hold the 'in the field' part of the wiring .


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>but don't you have to hold the comb while you wrap the wire around it? Let's see, you hold the comb with one hand, then you hold the frame with the other hand, and then you string it in place with the other-other hand. Works if you have help.

That's the wonderful thing about the two halves of a the "Swarm Ketching" frames. You don't need any hands to tie or wire or whatever. You just put the comb in and close it like a book and put it in the hive. Done.

>By using tacks in dowels, you can string the wire on ONE side only, in advance. Then when you do a cut-out you can lay the comb on the wires and string wire over the opposite side of the dowels to hold the comb in.

But now you still have to handle wire with sticky, slipper gloves on.

> It lets you work with the frames laying flat on a work surface, and you can use both hands to string the wire over the comb.

But if you have "Swarm Ketching" frames you don't even need to do that.


----------



## girl Mark (Oct 25, 2005)

Michael,

I'm a woodworker with years of experience building trapezoids and other odd shapes for music studio sound baffles (you make a frame out of 3/4" wood strips and later stretch fabric over it and then trim it out with hardwood, and the frame assembly process is is much like what happens if you build a trapezoidal swarm catch frame). 

And in spite of my experience building angled framework, I found it annoying enough that I think most non-woodworker beekeepers with a sloped-sided TBH would go throw themselves off the nearest bridge after the frustration of attempting to make the angles work right. 

It would be very easy to build if you have a rectangular hive without sloped sides. But I'd NEVER suggest that a newbie to woodworking attempt to match their sloped-side TBH configurations with a Lusby-style frame.

It didnt' seem like a particularly difficult in-the-field wiring job either, just two crossed pieces of very flexible 28 gauge wire held several little pieces in place.

Can we please stop calling these things swarm catch frames?

[ June 22, 2006, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: girl Mark ]


----------



## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

-Can we please stop calling these things swarm catch frames?

how about oops frames


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

'oops' frames. i used a four letter word when some of my tbh frames broke too, but i can tell you the word wasn't 'oops'


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It would be very easy to build if you have a rectangular hive without sloped sides. But I'd NEVER suggest that a newbie to woodworking attempt to match their sloped-side TBH configurations with a Lusby-style frame.

I think your woodworking experience is working against you. I'd cut them all square, nail them square with 1 1/2" long staples and then bend them to the angle. If you need some reinforcing at the corners, cut some plastic from a 2 litre bottle and staple it on with some J21 or T50 staples. It's not a piano. It's not even a cabinet. I would make them with all sqaure cuts and nail all but one corner while they are sqare and then bend them to where the last one fits and nail it.

>-Can we please stop calling these things swarm catch frames?

I agree the name is ambiguous, but Dee Lusby invented them and I suppose she has the right to name them. They are "swarm ketching frames" actually.


----------



## Rich M (Apr 9, 2005)

After long procrastination and watching this debate I settled on the original (to this thread) TX Ashurst design. I started cobbling something together out of scrap wood and realized the 1/2" dowel with furniture tacks would indeed be easiest. I have a drill press so getting the hole drilled acurately on a 120 degree angle was easy. Did one side with bailing wire in the garage, the other after laying my cut out comb in them. It couldn't have been any easier, the bees were not bothered much by the procedure at all. I was able to realign an entire hive that has been building perpendicular to the bars. Using twine to tie up cut outs was so sloppy I could previously only do a few combs at a time. 

They really should be called cut out frames.

Thanks TX for sharing, these have made life a whole lot easier for me.


----------



## TX Ashurst (May 31, 2005)

I'm glad they helped. When it comes to karma, you give a little and you get a little. I like that.


----------

