# Swarm Queen Not Laying



## mathesonequip

you have a good grip on the situation. i would suggest that you head toward keeping 3 hives and a nuc or 2. you will have more options. if your box is back-filled this time of year add a box yesterday. when feeding feed inside the hive, feed slow and steady, this will encourage comb building. feeding a lot so that the bees can slurp it up fast encourages comb filling. syrup will slow down comb filling compared to honey or real heavy syrup.


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## crofter

If they swarmed late May and we are just past mid June your queen could still not be running late to start laying. I have a number of queens who may have missed the first mating window because of weather, so they sure wont be setting any records for minimum number of days from emergence to first eggs laid.


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## yukonjeff

Thanks for the responses guys, I had to run out on a salmon opener yesterday. But did get to inspect my original hive and I cant find any eggs or brood in that one either. They have lots of pollen and some honey band around the old brood nest, and its not backfilled so that's good, but I did not see the new queen and this is the second inspection and have not seen her yet, I do see the hatched Q-cell and another that's ripped open so hope she gets mated and lays soon,( if she is still there) or I am totally screwed. We did have two weeks of rainy weather so she might of been grounded.Thanks for the hope Crofter.

Mathensonquip, I must of over fed, I have a two jar feeder board I made up that works too good so thats why they backfilled.I have one jar on now with just 1-1 sugar water, is their any hope that the swarm queen will ever lay again? she has empty comb to lay in but is not laying, or am I wasting my time with her.?

Thanks again


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## mathesonequip

if there is space anywhere a queen will start to lay if there is food coming in. if the hive is full the bees will find eggs or baby brood and then swarm after starting the queen raiseing procedure. if the bees are unhappy with the queen they will make another if they can. if there is space to lay and the queen is not laying give her 10 days or so, you may have a virgin or young queen. 2 weeks after you see no eggs or young brood which are hard to see [ i assume no queen cells], you really need a new queen. if you add a frame which includes eggs or tiny larvae the bees will build queen cells and raise a queen, this will not happen if you have a young good queen present so go ahead and add a frame from another hive now.


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## yukonjeff

Thanks again Mathesonequip

Perhaps now that I am feeding (food coming in ) hopefully one of the queens will start to lay. Because as the situation is right now I don't have any frame of eggs or brood of any kind in either of my two hives to swap out.

The swarm hive was working on what looked like a Q-cup I wonder if she will lay in it? 

I will wait the two weeks like you suggested we have a lot of bad weather so mating flights can be hit or miss .I will start looking into getting a queen flown in for the future once all hope is lost.

Thanks again

Jeff


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## mathesonequip

the queen may not have to lay an egg in the queen cell the bees can move them it seems, most queens will lay some this time of year if there is food in the hive. keep in mind that food is not just honey or nectar, it includes pollen. if there is little pollen available add a some substitute. either purchase it or make some, there are directions on this site. a lot of good larger beekeepers like pollen-sub that includes powdered eggs. i like mann-lake sub. you are far enough north that pest larvae in the pollen-sub should not be a problem.


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## yukonjeff

Well that gives me hope anyway,hopefully one of them will start laying and then I can swap some eggs over to the other hive. That would solve my queen problems. I really don't have a choice in the matter but sit back and feed and hope for the best.

I am watching them bring in pollen and there was some in a few of the frames of drawn wax so I think we have plenty with everything blooming now so I think they are good there.I still cant believe I am feeding them, and they are sitting right in a huge hillside of blooming Blue Iris not to mention the plethora of other wild flowers. They don't seam to be touching them, they love the cranberry flowers on the tundra though and the Cow Parsnips they are collecting pollen from now.

Thanks again I will update this later and let you know how it goes.


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## yukonjeff

Update: Well I did my weekly inspection and I do have eggs and larva in the main hive so that's great news.Crofter was right she must of had a slow start. 
And mathesonquip the feeding must of got her laying, Thanks again for the great advice guys.

With out knowledgeable folks like yourselves willing to help us newbeas with the same problems over and over, would be screwed even worse. lol

Well here is where I am at now.

The swarm queen is still not laying I am feeding with a peanut butter jar on a shim with a empty medium super on it and they are filling the 4-5 frames of drawn comb with and building more, I didn't see the queen this time but I imagine she was still there I did see her last two time I checked.

The main hive had a capped queen cell so I tried grafting it to a empty ritecell frame and put it in the empty super on top the swarm queen that aint laying they can get up in there through another feed hole in the shim that don't have a feed jar in it. on the hive on the left.

Will this work? I figure I need to pinch the queen soon anyway and now I can add a frame of eggs once the new queen in the old hive gets a frame or two more laid.

Any thoughts


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## yukonjeff

Well it seamed to work ! a day or two before I found she was hatched I found what looked like a dead queen laying on the landing deck I believe was the old queen they must of killed her before the cell hatched.

So hopefully she will get mated and start laying soon.


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## DanielD

Looks like the cell has a hole in the side of it too. What if the hive was queen right and the queen in the cell was killed and pitched out. Did you put the cell in the hive with the non laying queen? Was the queen still in there when you put it in?


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## yukonjeff

The hive was from a month old package that backfilled and swarmed , I did catch them but she never did lay again,no eggs or brood at all.

Yes the queen was still there when I put it in but it was in a super above ,by the feed jar.

I think I found her dead a couple days before the new cell hatched, she looked flat sort of deflated.

Edit: I looked again and that is a hole in the side and one small one at the top, don't look tore into though more like helped out, but I could be wrong of course , and back to square one.


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## Lburou

yukonjeff said:


> ...I should mention I am out in the boonies and no other bee keeps around to get a queen unless I can get one mailed in...
> 
> ...a day or two before I found she was hatched I found what looked like a dead queen laying on the landing deck I believe was the old queen they must of killed her before the cell hatched...


Jeff, if you are correct and your original queen is dead, any virgin queen from your hive has no choice but to mate with her brothers BECAUSE there are no feral bees in your area. The bees will abort every one of her larva if she mates with her brothers because they will be genetically abnormal! You are hopelessly queenless. The colonies will not survive.

*Order a queen! Now!* I would probably recombine the hives and take advantage of the honey flow, then introduce the new queen when she arrives. When possible, you need two unrelated queens in at least two hives so new queens can mate with a little success.


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## yukonjeff

Thanks Lburou I was hoping that some of the package bees were still alive and might not be related? since they were just hived in late April, she only laid about a frame or two of eggs before she quit and swarmed. but I should get one if I can.

The original hive is full of capped brood and lots of frames of eggs I could steal if that' would work ?


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## mathesonequip

the new virgin queen has to mate with about 15 [+/-] drones. virgins only mate with drones from a distance away, they will not mate succesfuly with drones from their own hive or from drones from the same bee yard. if there are no bees from something like 1/2 to 2 or 3 miles away you have no choice but to buy mated queens. in the long run you need to start another yard a mile or so away. i suggest dr. lawrence connor's books on queen essentials and drone essentials as a good place to start for your longer range plans... my guess is that bears in the out-yard maybe a problem given your location. it would work to move some drone producing hives to a seasonal out yard. inbred bees should not be an issue given that within a colony there are a lot of 1/2 sisters. the real problem is getting the new queen well mated.


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## Lburou

yukonjeff said:


> ...The original hive is full of capped brood and lots of frames of eggs I could steal if that' would work ?


Those bees are too closely related to any virgin queens for a successful mating. If you don't get another queen, those bees cannot survive. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Kayak in Valdez, or VikingJim in North Pole, AK may be a source for bees or queens if it happens you have some kind of connection (meaning free & fast transport) with either location. But you need a queen or queens ASAP if you want to overwinter this year. If not, at least you will have some drawn comb for next year when you get two unrelated hives, eh?


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## yukonjeff

Thanks Guys I am sure you both know what your talking about, but I have a question, Since my hive swarmed the old hive was queenless and they bred a new queen ?, I have a lot of open and capped brood and eggs in that hive ,so how did she get mated? and will they abort the brood? so far they haven't.

I have not seen her yet, I hope its not a laying worker.

Well I will see about getting a queen ,otherwise I will have a lot of drawn comb for next year, and a will be a little smarter I hope.


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## Lburou

Jeff, the way honey bees pass their genes through polyandry is difficult for me to grasp, let alone explain it accurately here. Maybe someone will jump in here...Or, you could ask a question in Queens and Queen rearing forum.

A virgin CAN mate with her brothers but it will not be a good mating for the future of the hive. You are in a unique situation there. Experts can chime in to your new thread in the queen section. HTH


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## yukonjeff

Thanks again Lburou I think I understand now.I wish now I would of got a second package flown in but I was not sure if I could even get one here alive the logistics of travel here sucks and cant mail package bees to here and most wont ship to Alaska anyway.

I will work on my screwed situation and see what I can come up with might be next year before I try again unless I can get a queen shipped in and that will be a challenge, if they allow it.Everthing here flys in, including bees and they have regs on what planes they can fly in.


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## yukonjeff

Also does this frame have some worker brood on it or all droan,? I cant tell yet. THanks


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## mathesonequip

the cap on the worker brood is relatively flat. drone brood is larger and the cap is dome shaped. it sticks out beyond the comb. drones can and are sometimes laid in the worker size cells. i am not sure what you have from the camera angle and focus. labrou is right a queen could mate with her brother but it is not set up so there will be a succesful mating with 15 to 20 drones over a 1 or 2 day mating schedule as is needed for a good queen.


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## mathesonequip

normally there will not be a lot of drones in a small hive. if your hive population is not over 4 or 5 lbs. there should not be a lot of drones, this is not a hard rule, russian type bees will start making drones in a smaller hive like 2 or 3 lbs. this is something to notice as you go . if you have a lot of drones in a small hive pay attention.


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## yukonjeff

Thanks again Mathesonequip It does seam like I am seeing a lot of drones out of that hive,but still seeing workers as well so was hoping to be able to see if they are just hatching drones. I started with a 4 lb package and she didn't lay but a couple frames of eggs before she flew the coop.

I guess I better get a couple queens in if I can to reboot the gene pool, and will try to get a small hive next year to keep at another location so I can breed successfully, I do appreciate the help and great advice.

Thanks


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## Lburou

Jeff, I can't tell from the picture how the brood is capped (worker or drone). Please take another shot of the brood frame 30-45 degrees from vertical, then we can tell. 

In your unique location, I don't think the other hive needs to be at a different location. JMO 

Added: There is a long shot that your package had a few drones distantly related to your queen and they might still be alive and could mate with your virgins....Possible, you may get lucky. Since it would likely be just a few drones, it prolly wouldn't be a good mating. I would still order a queen.


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## yukonjeff

I will get another shot on my next inspection so will give her the benefit of any doubt for now since I dont have a choice..lol

But look here is the new swarm queen I had to remove the feed shim and thought I would take a quick peek since I passed on it last inspection day since she just hatched.

The old Russian Queen was almost black so this is not her, she looks healthy from my untrained eye ,I didn't see any eggs yet but still early.

I do have a friend flying in next week from IL. She asked if I needed anything ,I might have her pick up a new queen if she can bring it on the plane, and then I can start a new nuc 

Thanks again for the great advice and Happy Fourth !


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## Lburou

Queen cage in your pocket is a great way to keep queen to temperature.


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## yukonjeff

Thanks again Lburou I will see if I can talk her in to putting one in her pocket when she comes back 

She did fly my original package in for this spring me too.

Here is my bee yard, that is the Yukon river in the background and you can see the fireweed is starting to bloom.


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## vtbeeguy

I would have her bring 2 just so if something was to happen on the trip there all your eggs are not in 1 basket.


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## yukonjeff

Well I inspected today and the new Swarm Queen must of got bred, and is now laying, I see brood now so I am a happy bee keep 

Our main flow is on and they are capping fireweed honey, I quit feeding since they are in a big patch of it.

I will hold off on re-queening for now and see if I can get them built up for winter. I do plan on getting a queen here when ever they show they need it, or can be split again in the spring if they make it through the winter and thats a big "IF"

Thanks again for all the replies it sure helps knowing you all have my back


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## Fivej

I just had a similar experience where my swarm queen didn't match up with my bee math. I think we newbees may be too quick to decide that a hive is in trouble in order not to screw it all up and risk failure. Beginning to think that Mother Nature actually knows more than me! Good luck. J


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## Lburou

Jeff, that is great news!

The whole story will be told when you see capped brood and verify capped worker brood with a good brood pattern.


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## yukonjeff

Well here is another shot of the original hive and I am wondering if its all drone brood or is there any worker brood on here I have a few frames in this small hive that al look like this, I am thinking I might have a laying worker I have never seen a queen yet.

This hive is only about 3-4 lbs of bees.












I think I might of took their only queen cell and left them queenless. These bees would be better off without me. lol

I have also done some reading on the Russian strain and found some interesting stuff that could of been my problem. 

Here are some quotes from a guy Foley in Iowa that raises Russians.

"Russian Queen Shut-down:
Russian queens will stop laying if there is a pollen or nectar dearth. In Eastern Washington it is not uncommon to have a pollen dearth between the dandelion bloom and the next bloom during the spring. Many Russian queens will shut down during this short period. It is not normally a failing queen, it’s a Russian thing. Do not try to replace her; just wait to see if she starts laying again when the pollen flow returns.

MORE :

Future:
The Russian honey bee is not a panacea. It is a very hardy and hygienic bee with numerous traits both good and not so good. Unless a new beekeeper attends a Russian honey bee oriented beginner’s class, it is not recommended to start out with Russians. The management techniques are just different enough to cause significant problems. The Russian Honeybee Breeders Association has been formed to maintain the current pure Russian queen lines and expand the gene pool of association members. Each member of the RHBA maintains two lines of Russian queens. Each year they evaluate, select, and produce 36 queens from each line and then send two of each line to the other 17 members. The 34 queens received from the other members are used as drone mothers and produce additional drone mothers. The drones increased each member’s gene pool each year. New queens are grafted from the line breeder queens and moved to mating yards near drone mother yards. After successful mating, the new queens are established and then evaluated for possible selection as breeder queens for the next year. The cycle then repeats


More Here: http://www.russianbee.com/russians.htm


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## Lburou

I'm sorry to say Jeff, but that is drone brood...Looks like a drone laying queen. Any luck on getting a new queen?


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## mathesonequip

this is all drone brood. the queen never mated or went sterile. queens do not mate succesfully if the only drones available in the area are from their own hive or are from nearby [same yard] hives. most likely the case is never mated. you need a proven queen or the hive will die out. for a queen to mate there needs to be drones more than 1/2 or a more than a mile away.


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## yukonjeff

Well that's a bummer. 

Now I wonder if my swarm queen in the other hive is the old package queen or the cell that I put in, its laying now,so I guess I will see if that's a failure as well.

I did try and pm a couple people on here selling queens but never got a response, can anyone recommend a place that ships queens, I was hoping to keep these Russian genetics if I can,but in a pinch I will take a Carni or a cross. 

Thanks again guys.


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## DanielD

jeff, have been following the thread, and I would be concerned because of the long delay for the laying to start. It may be a virgin swarm or the cell queen. It sounds like you have a challenge to keep bees where you are. One of the blessings of beekeeping is that they can fix major errors of ours, but a big one would be requeening themselves well. Sounds like you need to start distant bee yards of non related bees. Consider your experience a big gain in wisdom about beekeeping there.


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## yukonjeff

Thanks DanialD. It sure is disheartening watching these bee's failing since May and not being able to get the resources here to help them. I guess I didn't think this all the way through.

If I try this again I will see if I can keep at least two yards going ,that is if I can keep one alive first.


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## DanielD

It sounds like swarming is a death sentence for a colony of bees there currently. Swarm prevention would be a very important thing to know about. If feral bees are capable of surviving there, your swarm may well be out there starting a source of bees not related to your next ones. Would they have a chance of surviving? Are mites in the area? I would suppose mites went out with the swarm.

If someone had told you about queens and mating issues there, you may not have taken it too seriously. Now you have the experience to know how serious it is and it is leading you to more knolwedge about the bees. Trials make us wise if we use them for training.


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## yukonjeff

Yes a swarm here would end up being bird feed I guess no other bees here, I wonder what the chances of a queen finding and mating with a drone that's two miles away would be, chances seam slim, but they must communicate and pull it off I imagine.

I did gain a bunch of experience with this package of bees and its been a lot of fun, I got to do a swarm recovery and have two hives if I can keep them alive. I have defiantly been stung by the bee bug and wish I would of started sooner, I think I might have a small obsession, and that cant be good. 

Well I do have another queen ordered Thanks again Don !

Stay tuned I will update from time to time for anyone interested or anyone with the same type problems.


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## mathesonequip

jeff,, to get a well-mated queen she has to mate with 15 to 20 drones over a 2 day period. 2 miles away would work. once the about 2 or 3 day mateing period is over no more mateing for the rest of the queens life.


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## DanielD

Yeah, I have read they normally fly more than 2 miles to mate, but I don't have any background to verify it. I am at the mercy of others who seem to know what they are talking about concerning that. I have gained understanding by following this thread. Thanks for sharing your learning experience. If you have another queen ordered, and it's a drone laying queen instead of a laying worker, you can still pinch the queen and add the new one. You have a great excuse for more bees and another apiary a few miles away too. 

Obsessions aren't good, but a passion for something can be.


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## yukonjeff

Glad you were able to learn with us Daniel.

Update: I did get a new queen shipped in Thanks Mathesonquip for hooking me up and Thanks to Chautauqua Apiary for getting me a laying queen delivered across the continent very much alive.

I have her installed and giving her peace for ten days, I hope they can recover. Was a pretty sad situation watching them haul out the baby drone larva and just hatched brood out on the deck to die.

Meanwhile back in the non laying Swarm Queen I see she is laying up a storm and things are going to be alright,(I hope)












Thanks again for all the help> us newbees sure are screwed with out all you gray beards help


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## Lburou

Well done Jeff! When is your average first frost? They don't have much time to bring nectar in.


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## Chautauqua Apiary

Jeff I hope your new queen is doing good for you, make sure you keep me informed how she is doing


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## yukonjeff

Lburou we have a later fall here out in western Alaska, and warmer winters. we get the warm Bering Sea winds that keep our temps warmer than most of the interior of AK. (during the winter), and our fall is later as well so we might have fireweed still blooming even after the first frost with plenty of warm fly days right up into mid October I am guessing.

First frost will be in Late August or early Sept but alot of our plants and flowers here are pretty frost resistant , and will still be blooming right as the snow hits.

Barry, I did a manual release on Monday as they didn't quite have the candy gone. so I set the cage on the top bars and opened the small door and she walked right out and across the top bars like she owned the place. She fed from one of the workers and then crawled down into the frames like a good girl. 

Will keep you posted and Thanks again for saving the day.


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## mathesonequip

jeff.. warm bering sea wind sounds a lot like army inteligentence.. i am glad things are going better.


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## Clairesmom

Be sure to keep an eye on what the bees are bringing in and storing for the winter. If in doubt, feed, feed, feed! Not sure what your bees will need by way of winter stores, and I always prefer mine to have lots of honey to eat rather than sugar-syrup, but better to feed syrup to get the stores up enough to last until spring than to have them starve out over the winter.

Good luck with them. You'll be a much happier beekeeper, and enjoy them more, now that they are getting back on track.


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## Lburou

It sounds like you dodged a bullet Jeff! The next bullet I see coming for you will be having two hives going into winter without adequate stores. I got through the first winter in Eagle River with a deep and a medium full of bees and honey. But I fed them.

Recommend you feed the bees now until the second super is full on each hive. You might consider one of these screen boards to stack your hives during winter. The screen board might help both colonies keep warmer and use less honey over winter. Something to think about Jeff.

Jeff, do you have warm, (over 55 degrees), days during the winter?


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## yukonjeff

Thanks for all the helpful info folks.We are right in the middle of our main Fireweed flow now, so I was going to let them bring in what they can and assess where they are at in a week or two, and start feeding if necessary.

I remember feeding is what caused my problems in the first place, they back filled and she left. so I don't want that again. lol

That screen board could be the ticket Lburou I will get one if Dadant ships to Alaska. I was considering combining if they look too weak come fall.

We get several warm spells with rain every winter, it gets up to 45 or so. We don't get the real cold like Fairbanks or the interior in fact Eagle river will get frost before it does here out west.

I sure want to get at least one hive through winter, its such a pain and $$$ to get a package of bees out here, I don't want to have to do it again. 

Thanks for all the input, its been a big help and good to hear all the ideas.


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## yukonjeff

Well Things are not going well for my new queens hive. I noticed mites on the landing deck from all the drone brood I mistakenly let hatch in the hive, I have a serious mite problem. I did treat for three days with Hops strips, changed the bottom board to a new clean one, was probably too little, too late.

Also the next door Swarm queen hive was robbing it, so I moved it 50 ft away that helped some, I put a empty hive in its place and spilled some sugar syrup on their deck to keep them busy seamed to work for awhile.

The population has now dwindled down to a pity full amount of bees. I added a frame of what I figured was soon to hatch capped brood from a other hive that really could of used them themselves, but they probably don't have enough bees to keep it warm, and I probably just wasted precious resources I don't think they can recover at this point and not sure what I can do with the still alive queen once she is the only one left. sorry to waste a good queen.










I took out a few frames and added sidewalls to help with space.










On more positive note the swarm queen hive is really exploding still not a full deep yet but it looks like its getting there, I treated for mites and hopefully I will still go into winter with at least one hive,... fingers crossed.


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## mathesonequip

it is all part of the learning procedure. by the time you figure out what to do and get what you need to get there it is often pretty [to] late. it is hard with a couple of hives in a remote area. the people with more hives that have done this for awhile do something without much thought and go on to the next hive. sometimes that something to do is nothing but leaving the brood box tipped up for other hives to clean out.


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## yukonjeff

For those that were following my plight, here is an update:

Well my mail order queen had enough of the varroa infested hive I put her in and absconded with a fist full of bees to a better place, I cant say I blame her.
And Thanks Mathesonequip for privately informing me the Hopps strips DO NOT WORK, he was right again and suggested the MAQ, which I got and saved my swarm queens hive that is kind of small ,but still chugging along.

We have a lot of dragonflies here and they eat bees all kinds of bees and mine included, I did chase them away from the hive some days.



















The temps recently dropped have dropped to around 25 at night to 40-50 in the afternoon, I could not get them to take much feed all summer with a flow going on, but they would not store much either, so I have been open feeding 2:1 and they have been taking it,I am also giving them pollen to store,and they are really gathering that up. 

I made a quilt box and put it on the hive and painted the hive because Black Hives Matter. I am not sure its good they are now flying around at about 35 degrees, but for now its helping them get some feed in the hive before the big long freeze .




























I ordered follower board from Mann Lake who assured me that they go all the way to the floor of the bottom board (which they didn't) so I made my own out of plywood. I insulated with dry grass its a pretty good insulation.

Thanks to all that helped me through my first summer, I didn't kill them all.  And thanks to those that are posting in great detail on their winter set up, it has helped me immensely .


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## Branman

I just now saw this thread. I don't have much to add other than I'm pulling for ya!


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## mathesonequip

some insulation on the outside of the hive would be a good idea, or if you are in the right place burying the hive in snow might work well. the snow should be heavy enough to not blow away and dry enough not to turn to ice and smother the bees. a small top entrance is required for good results either way.... the hop-gaurd product has a place in the market but it is not for a heavy mite load in the short season northern climate.


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## Lburou

Jeff, I'm impressed by your persistent spirit with these bees. I want to share something you might consider for your current & future overwintering strategy.

I just took my best queen out of her hive (requeening it) and put her in a NUC box with two frames of adhering bees and brood. The NUC box has a screened vent hole on one end and a rotating disc on the other to control the entrance. I put it in the shop over winter and take it out on days with flying weather (refilling the frame feeder under red light). 

This setup allows me to feed sugar syrup all winter & some small dabs of pollen substitute as well. Such a setup would increase your chances of success until you get a mature hive so it can make it on its own. It looks like you have enough bees to about fill a five frame NUC box.

In any case, this year's experience will help you do better next year. Best of luck to you.


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## yukonjeff

Thanks guys, for all the great ideas and moral support 

I did get some insulation on yesterday I left the face open while they are still flying a bit, they might be done soon, then put on the mouse guard and sugar block.
I do have an upper entrance its small like one bee space wide, not sure its too small or not, you can see it better in this pic.










Snow conditions have me worried a bit we get all kids of different textures and always with wind and falling sideways, seldom are they the big cotton balls that gently drop, we have raging blizzards weekly. followed by rain storms with wind of course at any time during the winter,so everthing gets wet and then freezes and we have concrete for snow.

We also have a flour type snow that will blow into any crack and fill it solid with packed snow, that is my biggest worry is opening the hive in spring and finding it hard packed with snow. I am hoping they will keep the entrance melted out, but I will check regularly,and hope it buries under the snow for protection but not suffocate.

Lburou I have been scratching my head trying to think of a good way to winter indoors, I was going to move it in the shed but not sure where they would end up on warm fly days, I could move it in early and leave the door open to fly in and out, that was a idea I had,but sounds like your plan is a good one and I will try that next year for sure. Thanks!


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## yukonjeff

Temps have been 15-28 F. and we got a bit of snow, the bees got in a flight on Nov 3 I have a flap of birch bark pinned over the upper entrance as a wind baffle. Mouse screen in place.
Fingers crossed.


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## Lburou

Jeff, you have done a lot to get them ready, let's hope it is enough. As I look at your pictures, I'm not sure how many bees are in your bottom hive body....? 

Looking at your configuration, and realizing just now where your vent hole is located. Where is your vent hole in relation to the quilt? My mentor recommended placing the hole higher on the hive body. Overwintering in Alaska, I cut a vent hole (a kerf) in the inner cover so the actual vent is high in the hive, but I didn't use a quilt box either. Don't know how much difference it will make to a cluster of bees in winter, but in Alaska, it might. The most important thing will be to have food available all winter in contact with the cluster.









Do you have any way to protect the hive from wind? A couple bails of hay in the right spot could save them a lot of wind exposure.


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## yukonjeff

Thanks Lburou

Its only one deep, or more like seven frames in a ten frame deep, with a feeder shim, that's where the upper entrance is. And then I have the quilt box, is/ in a super above the shim. 

They were very light going into winter,I put a sugar block on and a piece of comb honey I bought off amazon,and hoping to be able to check on them when it warms from time to time and add more sugar blocks as needed. 

No hay bales here, no agriculture at all. I thought of a plywood wind break but I know it would make a big snow drift over the hive, and not sure that would be a good thing. Although I am sure it will be buried yet this winter.

The place I have them will be the first place to warm up and burn off ,and be snow free in the spring, so that's why they are on the hill above the house.


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## Lburou

Got it Jeff, thanks for the clarification.


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## emrude

Jeff,
I just read your thread. I am sending good wishes for your bees. You take great pictures of the bees and dragonfly. 

Mary


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## yukonjeff

Thank you Mary, my bees can use all the help they can get.


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## Forgiven

Hum, from your fireweed bloom time, temperatures there might not be too different what they are here.

I'll hope for best but I have bad feeling you may end up getting new set of bees next spring, the last pictures looked like they would probably be too weak to overwinter.

Some suggestions for next year, as it's probably too late now... (hope to be proven wrong).

And one for right now, that board you have in front of the hive entrance to stop the snow, get a bigger taller one. So that it goes up all the way to the upper box at least. Heavy snows might cover the entrance as it is now and moisture is more likely to kill the bees than cold, so if the ventilation route gets blocked it'll be bad. (Edit: oh and make sure the hive is slightly tilted forwards so any water on the bottom will get out of the entrance)

Here it's suggested that if your hive has less than 5 frames of brood (deep frames) in ~august, you should merge it with another, as it will be too weak to survive (outside, smaller ones moved into some kind of indoorish setting can survive). And to feed somewhere between 20 and 25kg of sugar (in syrup form, but the amount is in pure refined sugar) that'd be 44 to 55 lbs (minus the amount of honey you leave in the hive, and honey should be left in 'top corners', where it should be naturally if your bees did remember to read the book on how they are supposed to shape their hive), and to have the feeding done by mid september (starting some time in august, depending on the year), as they are unlikely to move it the cells any later than that.


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## yukonjeff

Thanks Forgiven for the overwinter tips, you must be in a similar climate there. its 6 degrees F. this morning here.

As for the board in front its just to block the snow and wind from blowing in, but it will be buried eventually I am sure, so I have a upper entrance and just hope that will be enough, along with the quilt box to absorb the moisture.

I do have the hive tipped forward a bit to drain any water.

These are Russian hybrid's and from what I have read they have a really small cluster ,described as the size of a grapefruit. So we will see.

I cant combine as they are the only bees I have, I lost my other hive to varroa.

I do hope to be able to get a couple more packages shipped out here this spring if I can, I could use/ need more genetics anyway since we don't have any wild honey bees here.

Thanks and good luck with your bees this winter.


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## Forgiven

If you are at 6F and that would be normal for the season you might have it bit colder than for me even. We had one night where it dropped that low last week, but it's usually warmer (rarely below 32F during day) in november...

Hm, yea, upper entrance might help, and I'm not very familiar with quilt boxes other than what I have heard on the net (not used around here). But ventilation is a weird thing, if it manages to circulate the air, it'll be fine. My hives are closed up top and ~half the bottom is screened through the winter and that seems to work fine, so these things are a lot about trial and error when it comes to local weather.

And yea, Russians might survive with that much smaller population, too used to thinking in terms of Italians, even if mine have bit of A. m. mellifera in them somewhere from past they seem to favor the italian winter ball size. Must have missed the bit about other hive dying while I read through this 

And yea, I guess you'd want some more, if for nothing else than the better possibility for new queens to mate.

Btw, if you are as isolated as you seem to be, I wonder if you could manage to actually turn your colonies varroa free, treatments are theoretically never 100%, but without outside re contamination it just might be possible.


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## yukonjeff

Yes we are at about normal temps for here, its 4 f this morning, I will be amazed if I open that box in the spring and don't see a frozen ball of bugs.lol

I cant have much of an entrance opening as we get a lot of wind here and will blow in the opening, so I keep it reduced all the way on the small opening for winter. I was also considering building a box I could set over the hive to act as a wind break and just remove it if it looks like we are going to get a cleansing flight weather.

This is my learning hive and the education I got from it ,and you all, has been a great experience, looking back I am surprised some are still alive with all my screw ups and bad ideas. lol 

I was also wondering about becoming treatment free at some point, after I treat of course and get some hives to stay alive. I am wondering if varroa can be totally eliminated if there are not feral bees bringing it back. something to aspire for I hope.


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## mathesonequip

with effort you can manage and control varroa. you can never eliminate them all.


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## yukonjeff

Thanks mathesonequip,that's seems to be the consensus.

Well its been cool here, down around -12 f at night and not much of a high during the short days, like + 5, we still don't have much snow my hive is not buried in snow,but probably would of helped in these cold temps. 

I am not in the real cold part of Alaska but in the interior it dips down in the -40 f this time of year. The weather man says its going to be headed down to the west coast of the lower 48 so you all might want to get your box of bugs ready for winter.

https://www.adn.com/nation-world/20...aska-poised-to-spill-into-lower-48-next-week/

I am thinking my feeder shim of three inches was a little bigger than I needed for a sugar block,and might be too much dead space to heat between the top of the frames and the bottom of the quilt box. I guess we will see in the spring but next year I want to cut that space down by an inch or more.

I was also wondering at what temps can I safely open my hive to add a brick of sugar, I would be opening the top and pulling out the shavings bag out of the super and setting the brick down inside on the top of the frames. of course not in this weather for sure.


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## mathesonequip

the 3 inch shim should be fine, 1 1/2 is more typical. for a quick peek you need a sunny day with temperatures around freezing and not much wind, colder could be a disaster. the high demand for food and pollen will start sometime in early spring as your bees start to raise brood. the starvation time is mid spring before nectar starts to come in. leave them alone until early march... in my area i would peek on a nice day at the end of febuary. at your near zero and below conditions, do not even tap and listen.. best wishes.


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## yukonjeff

Happy New Year ! And thanks again Mathesonequip.

We are having a Chinook here( that's Alaskan for warm, windy rainy, weather in winter), we get them here on the west coast often. With very high winds, been blowing with gust to 50 mph for the past few days but calmed down this afternoon to just a drizzle and 38 above, so I thought I might pop the cover and carefully lift up one side of the the quilt bag and stick in a few pieces of comb honey(they were very light) and check if they need a brick, of course that's if they are still alive.

Here is what was in there some were hanging from the fabric above so might of knocked a few down not sure if any are alive perhaps someone with experience could say one way or another. I did see some butts sticking out of some comb I set on the top bars ,again not sure they are alive of not.

They have not flown since the 3rd of November and looks like the sugar brick was gnawed on a little and should last. They did clean up the honey comb, possibly moved it down I hope.




























And Again Thanks for all the help, they would of been dead for sure long ago without this forum and all the good sharing bee keeps on here.


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## mathesonequip

pretty hard to tell from the pictures. at 38 degrees you would expect a little motion and hum noise. you can not tell for sure until warm weather, sometimes you get lucky, they are alive and you cannot see any sign of life. it looks dry in the hive which is good.


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## Lburou

Jeff, it looks like your quilt bag is fine and so is the cord is suspending it...the bee's activity confirms your design. The bees on their backs are probably dead, but the bees on the sugar brick suggest they are alive and working on the brick. So far so good. Hope they get a flying day in soon. (I'd keep that honey comb as close to the cluster as possible).

One year we had a memorable chinook wind in Eagle River...80mph 24/7 for three weeks. Bees can't fly in that.


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## yukonjeff

Thanks again guys.

Mathesonequip ,these bees go completely quiet at night no buzzing from the box at all supposed to be Russian cross. Of course I never knock on the hive but never hear them when they are all settled in, so I didn't expect to hear them now. 

And Lburou, Oh yea, I know all about the Eagle River valley winds when I worked there back in the early 80s was amazing when it came ripping down the valley.

so I am wondering now if bees do need a cleansing flight and how often? we get warm spells but its windy and rainy never a sunny fly day, but where I located the hive on the hill will get good sunny exposure and will warm up nicely, especially now that's its painted black. I expect by March when the days are long and sunny they might warm up enough to come out then. We get our willow pollen in April with snow still on the ground.


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## mathesonequip

how often bees want a cleansing flight depends on the hive of bees and what they are eating. sugar syrup is the food with the least need of cleansing. real dark food high in ash is the opposite. if the bees can not fly the hive gets dirty which can lead to dystery. bees have on average survived for millions of years. your climate is a challenge but you are doing all you can. you will be ok we both hope.


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## Lburou

mathesonequip said:


> how often bees want a cleansing flight depends on the hive of bees and what they are eating. sugar syrup is the food with the least need of cleansing. real dark food high in ash is the opposite....


mathesonequip is quite correct, your bees are eating refined sugar (read low ash) and honey. That is healthy and will delay the need for a cleansing flight. You should be good so far.


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## yukonjeff

Thanks guys for all your technical and moral support, I did bring the hive in the house on a 30 degree day and opened to see no sign of life, not sure why but probabaly could not get to the little bit of food they had. We had a real Alaskan winter here temps were well below 0 for extended periods, and it was just a week nuc.
Here is what's left of the cluster dead on the comb. RIP Swarm Queen.










But lady luck smiled on me and blessed me with two more packages flown in from Cali, from a bee keeper here in the state that had a 70% overwinter rate ! so I have new bees ! hived on a 35 degree sunny spring Alaskan day, on mostly drawn comb, and with renewed hope that this summer I will get to see a full hive of bees, and possibly get some honey, or a split If I don't mess up. I think I made most of my first year mistakes and have a little knowledge and with all the help on here I Just might get to be, a keeper of bee's once again this summer..... Fingers crossed.


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## Lburou

Jeff, I'm impressed by your positive attitude in the face of those dead bees. Good luck in round two!


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## yukonjeff

Thanks again Lburou. If it wasn't for all the help and encouragement from you and others on here I would of been so lost I would of gave up by now.

Now I am back with more questions for anyone that has an opinion 

Well on first week inspection I saw open brood and was quite pleased, after only one week, and with the cold temps we had in the 20s for lows at night.

Yesterday was week two inspection and was hoping to see a frame or two of capped brood, I only saw a small patch in each hive. Is this normal ?



















Also they look to be filling the frames of comb I gave them with sugar syrup, I had six holes in my jar feeder lid, so I made new ones with just three, I hope I didn't over feed again and have them swarm like last year. Should I quit feeding for a spell ? she does have some open comb yet but they filled a lot of it. We will also have ALOT of berry flowers open up on the tundra here in a week. Do berry flowers like cranberry ,blueberry,salmonberry flowers produce nectar in amounts they would store? and backfill? The tundra will be covered with berries in the summer time in amazing amounts.
Thanks again.



Also my hives are painted black, and has been working great with the cool temps,was heating the house with solar power temps were 20s to 40 degrees but now we are warming to lows of about 30 to highs of 50, my question is will they cook ? a hot summer day here is 72 and seldom gets 80, I was planning on changing the boxes out once it gets too hot for them,but how would I know, them fanning? will the comb melt? I am using plastic acorn frames.


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## Rader Sidetrack

It highly unlikely that black painted hives in those temperatures could heat up enough to damage plastic comb, if there are are bees in that hive. The bees will manage the cooling system appropriately. 

But I don't think the supposed benefit of a black colored hive being warmer in the sun is all that great. There is a trade-off, and that comes at night. Black colored objects, including black hives, lose heat faster at night than white colored objects. For instance: https://www.thenakedscientists.com/articles/questions/what-loses-heat-fastest-white-or-black-surface

So in effect, a black hive has greater temperature swing over a 24 period than if that hive was colored white. I don't see that as a benefit to the bees.


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## yukonjeff

Thanks Rader, I didn't suspect that they would cool faster. When I painted them last fall, I did it in hopes that they would get a cleansing flight in, knowing they would have a long winter here.

Before they were black, they quit flying at 40 degrees last fall ,after I painted black they flew at 35 degrees, so I was able to get in a little extra feed and cleansing flights as late as November 3,so I think it did help then at least.

We are getting long days here now. Its staying light till about 11:30 and will be light most of the night all summer in a few weeks, but we do still get the cooling evening sun setting effect when it gets low in the sky around 2:00 am till 4:30


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## Lburou

Hello Jeff 

I don't think you need to worry about your heat inside hives at those temperatures. My bees have survived 110 degrees F, they just need water to cool the hive. Honeycombs get real soft at those temps though, but at 85-90 degrees it won't be a problem.

I have read about itinerant beekeepers moving to cranberries and blueberries, so you should be golden for pollen nectar availability when your bloom starts on the tundra. Right now, your bees need carbohydrates (sugar or nectar) and protein (pollen or pollen substitute). I would give them all they will take until you see bees on the blooms of the tundra, then taper the feeding until they are obviously gathering enough to get along on their own. That advice goes out the window if you see the brood nest getting smaller because of sugar syrup in the cells.

Each year, the brood nest begins as a silver dollar sized patch, each successive round of brood grows larger and larger...What you have looks pretty normal -although, I'd like to see fewer empty cells inside that first patch, but lets not worry about that now, post a picture in two weeks for us to critique please. The bees may be limited now by availability of pollen or pollen sub, make sure they have some protein if you can, that will keep them growing until fresh pollen is available. If you aren't feeding pollen sub, the bees are drawing on their vital fat reserves to nourish the brood. You can read more about 'bee nutrition' at scientificbeekeeping.com.

You have a huge advantage this year over last year in that you posses drawn honeycombs, you can add empty combs and foundations whenever the bees run out of space. When you see bees covering the frames on 7-8 of your frames in the hive body, add a super of combs or foundation. HTH


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## yukonjeff

Thanks Lburou, that puts my mind at ease ,I will watch and see if the surface gets too hot , or a lot of fanning ,but I think they kind of like it so far,and they have been active even on cool cloudy days, with minimal sunshine.

As far as pollen I did put on a home made patty made up of flour sugar,some honey and store bought pollen . (Just guessed) This is whats left of it. I have another made I will put on tomorrow,I am also open feeding pollen as well.










And good to know about the cranberry flowers here is my last years bee's I will ween them off the sugar as they bring in nector like you said,and watch for backfilling. 



















I screwed up by giving them all the drawn comb when I installed the packages, I did save one. I( know better next time) I thought it would help them cluster in the cold weather we had at the time.

Thanks again and I will be back and show you wants going on in a couple of weeks

Here is a video I made of the Tundra and picking Salmon Berries, (real name is Cloud Berry) if anyone is curious of what tundra is like.


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## yukonjeff

Well to update things are looking real good, my one west coast hive is doing great she has about three frames of brood about like this.



















My east coast hive is still a smallish patch, yet but they are doing good. Weather was still in the mid 20s F. for lows last week but we are getting into the 50s -60 F now for highs and they are bringing in Pollen and possibly nectar from something, not sure.



















I also got tired of killing bees when I heat the syrup jars in the morning, so I put on these nifty screens and while doing the install I was promptly stung on the face as a reward for my humility.










All in all things are looking good one hive is booming for sure and hope to get my bear fence installed here soon before Whinny the Poo shows up.


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## mathesonequip

in northern ny it is snowing right now, not serious just spitting. my bees are off to a slow start they have only had 3 or 4 working days so far this spring. the grass is growing but there has been not much for rain and wind free days over 60 degrees. not much other than maple trees for bloom in my location. i am glad you are doing well. your bees look good.


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## Lburou

Hello Jeff,

I watched some of your fishing videos. Looks like you have a great life up there on the tundra. Every member of my family will smile when we mention our time in Alaska. We forget about the winter darkness, the mud, the cold rain and the exorbitant prices; and remember those silvers coming out of the water when you hook them, or dip netting on the Copper River, or fishing the kenai, susitna or Willow Rivers, picking blueberries at Hatcher Pass or real Salmon berries everywhere. each location having its own piece of paradise.

You are doing just fine with your bees. Unless you saved that pollen and froze it immediately on harvest, there will be little food value remaining for bee nutrition after a few weeks -meaning, bought pollen won't help the bees much. So, keep an eye out for another protein substitute for later on.

Questions: How many days did you see the bees flying last winter for cleansing flights? Are your queens sisters, or did they come from unrelated genetic lines? What are your plans for handling varroa mites? How many frames do your bees cover now? Are your hives about equal in population? How much and what ratios of sugar syrup are you feeding? 

Regards,

leeb


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## yukonjeff

mathesonequip said:


> in northern ny it is snowing right now, not serious just spitting. my bees are off to a slow start they have only had 3 or 4 working days so far this spring. the grass is growing but there has been not much for rain and wind free days over 60 degrees. not much other than maple trees for bloom in my location. i am glad you are doing well. your bees look good.


Thanks Mathesonequip, Good to see you made it through the winter too  we have nice clear weather in the spring here with nice sunny days but cool and freezing at night. They have been flying almost daily here since I hived them on April 8. I honestly think my black painted hives had a warming effect and they at least got outside to do cleansing flights and make it to the pollen feeder I put out. Of course I have been warming the syrup every morning, sometimes in the evenings on real cold days. 
Good luck with your bee's 

And Thanks Lburou, glad you found my video's entertaining, and life is good here in western AK if you can take the village life, its nice and peaceful here, and plenty of good fishing and hunting, we have a two moose limit and a seven month season 

I didnt know that about pollen, Will look into a pollen sub,if you can recommend one would be great.

As for the questions: I did not see them fly once after Nov 3 last winter so they might of died shortly after for all I know, I believe they were dead when I checked the first time. I wonder should I take the honey and replace with sugar syrup so that they don't need a cleansing flights as much from the solids in the honey ? I have been feeding 1-1 in spring and 2 -1 in the fall.

Not sure of the genetics of the queens, they are Carnies. I have a Russian Queen coming in June hope to get another and make a Nuc or two if possible.

I treated with MAQ,s last August and still have a bunch left and plan to do the same again. 

It looks like I have around 6-7 frames of bees in each hive.One is a bit smaller than the other and has less brood but I think she will pick up yet.

Thanks again guys for all your advice and reassurance.

Jeff


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## mathesonequip

i use mann-lake pollen sub. i have used both the standard one and the better one. this year the better one, they seem to accept it more often.


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## Lburou

mathesonequip said:


> ...i use mann-lake pollen sub...


I have some of their pollen sub, I keep it frozen. The bees still love it after two years. Do you think you could keep it cold enough up there in Alaska Jeff?


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## Lburou

Jeff, I sent you a Personal Message, (look for 'Notifications" in the fields at the top of the page), asking for your address so I can mail you some pollen sub.


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