# Bees Building Comb in Wrong Direction



## hudson

This year is my first attempt at using a TBH. I am a new Beek also, just 1 year. I installed my packages a couple weeks ago. Hung the queen cage from one of the bars. In both of my TBH the queen was released but the bees were building comb perpendicular to the bars. I pulled out the cages and cut the comb parallel to the bars and the put empty bars in between. Hopefully they will start building the right way.
Any one else seen this?:scratch:


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## Michael Bush

One good comb leads to another. You need a good comb. If you have it straight now that will work. If not, make some frames. Cut the comb and tie it into the frames. Then you will have some straight combs. Next time, don't put the queen cage in the hive. This is the root of your problem and then the wild comb leads to more wild comb.


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## jonlorusso

I installed two packages about two weeks ago. I also put the queen cages in... In my case, the queens had not been hanging inside of the packages but instead were separate when I picked them up. Probably not a good idea to direct release in that situation? In any case, one of the hives was badly cross-combing, the other has been building on the bars. The difference was where the queen cage happened to be hanging. 

I tried to fix the bad comb, but as you said, bad comb leads to more bad comb. I've put some straight comb in front of the bad comb, so I'm hoping that the problem is isolated to just the two bars (which are at the very front of the hive). 

I am wondering if I should try to fix the comb on these two bars? What if they have brood in them? I've only been at this for, well, about two weeks. Manipulating comb to that extent strikes me as more of an 'advanced exercise', not to mention it really seems to make the bees angry!


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## Wallroad

I built a TBH per the Barefoot Beekeeper plan. Made bars 1 3/8" wide with groove down middle. Melted beeswax into the groves. About the time I finished it, a couple of weeks ago, one of my Langstroth hive colonies swarmed. I gathered them up, dumped them into the new TBH, put 10 bars on top with follower boards on either end. Today I opened the TBH, found the bees had draw lots of comb, all at 45 degrees to the bars. Pulled a couple of bars, using a bread knife to separate each from the next. Combs are across all bars at an angle. Lots of it. Some dropped to bottom as I was trying to lift. Lots of honey and brood, but what a mess. And boy the girls were mad! Thankful to be wearing full protection. Not sure what to do. Doubt I could find the queen in this confused cross comb.

PS: Also built a Golden Mean TBH with triangular bottoms on bars. Put a packaged queen in there two weeks ago. They're doing fine, happily drawing comb just as they should.


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## Michael Bush

Wax in the groove is barely a suggestion and not at all a good guide. You need something that protrudes significantly. 1/4" is good. Put wood strips in. Meanwhile make some frames and get them straight. One good comb leads to another. One bad comb leads to another.


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## Wallroad

Thanks Michael. Please explain "make some frames." My TBH has no frames. Should I be building triangular wood frames to hang down from the top bars?


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## Michael Bush

You have to get the combs that are not straight, in line with the bars. The easiest way, in my opinion, is to make a frame, cut the comb and tie it in the frame. Yes, if it's a KTBH it will be a trapezium shape. If it's a TTBH it will be square. You need them to be 3/8" from the walls.


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## tben

Here's an example from www.learningbeekeeping.com.


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## Delta Bay

Referring to the pic above. If your comb is not built out to fit the whole frame you can place a mid bottom bar in the frame to hold the comb up to the top bar. Square the bottom of the comb a bit for greater base support and then wire, band or tie in for side support. The mid bottom bar doesn't need to be all that thick, 3/4" x 1/4" will do at a length that will place it so the top of the comb is up at the top bar. Works well with the KTBH.


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## dehavik

I read a study that showed bees that swarm from one hive to another will naturally build comb in their new hive facing the same cardinal direction as their previous hive. I'd be interested to know if your TBH is positioned 45* from the hive they swarmed from.


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## Michael Bush

>I read a study that showed bees that swarm from one hive to another will naturally build comb in their new hive facing the same cardinal direction as their previous hive. 

I've been experimenting with letting them do what they like in box hives etc for 37 years. My experience is that they build the comb at an angle to the entrance, sort of a compromise between the "warm way" (comb at right angles to the entrance blocking the wind) and the "cold way" (gap between the bars is facing the entrance). I don't think they care what the orientation was in their previous hive nor what cardinal direction the comb runs. They care about the wind coming in the door.


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## rmaro

Built some of this,









and got a lot of this.


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## beeb44

Hello, I hope my question is in the right thread here?
I tackled my first cut out and have without thought, placed a large chunk of comb into a frame with rubber bands horizontally to the way it was originally drawn ...Do I need to rectify this or does it not really matter??....


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## AvatarDad

Well... you resurrected a 5 year old thread in the top bar forum.  I would suggest starting a new thread in the "bee forum" next time perhaps.

But: I think you need to orient the comb exactly the way the bees had it. The comb has a slight upward tilt to it naturally, so there is a natural "up down" orientation to the comb. It probably isn't the end of the world if you don't, but it is definitely better if you do.


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## Michael Bush

Back in the 1860s reversible frames were all the rage. The comb would be turned upside down every week to prevent swarming. The bees didn't seem to care other than rearranging the honey and pollen in the brood nest and tearing down swarm cells... But all things being equal, I think it's best to put it the way you found it. If I already had it in the hive I would leave it.


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## JWChesnut

As others have said, it is not the end of the world. The bees remodel the comb if it not to their preference. 

I have several hives from cutouts this year, where because of the original orientation in a stud space, I laid the cut comb (all brood) sideways in a medium frame. I did this because it reduced the amount of cutting across the brood necessary to make the comb pieces fit into the receiver hive. All the brood hatched healthy, and the queen relaid into the sideways comb just fine.


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## beeb44

Michael Bush said:


> Back in the 1860s reversible frames were all the rage. The comb would be turned upside down every week to prevent swarming. The bees didn't seem to care other than rearranging the honey and pollen in the brood nest and tearing down swarm cells... But all things being equal, I think it's best to put it the way you found it. If I already had it in the hive I would leave it.


Thanks for your response Micheal.....I think the bees have settled into their new surroundings now so I will soon inspect the hive.....My thoughts based on your comments are this..If the bees have started to secure in the comb or add to it etc I'll leave it be..if it is as I had originally placed it with no evidence that they have made ammendments then I'll turn it the right way up...I have your book by the way...Good reading...Thanks


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## aunt betty

How I got straight combs in two top bar hives started from swarms:

Was lucky in that I had a friend who donated some deep langs with drawn comb to me.
It was hard to do what I'm about to describe but once I did it...looking back it was easy peasy.
I took two deep frames for each top bar hive and cut them and the combs to fit. Used a circular saw. Cut them frames and combs slicker than snot.
When I built them two top bars I was really lucky in that I'd built them by plans made by someone who knew what they were doing. The top bars on lang frames fit well.
Took my follower board and used it as a pattern to cut them frames.
Put two frames of drawn comb in with one empty bar in between. Installed the swarms and whallah...straight combs. 
As the colony grew I was sticking new bars into the brood nest. It worked perfectly.

The only drawback to doing this is the spaces between lang frames. I cut some strips of wood to fit and modified the lang frames where bees could not climb out. Messed up and used balsa wood because I had some model airplane wood that was already the right size. The bees chewed thru and now I have extra entrances to deal with. Don't use balsa. lol


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## beeb44

Thanks Aunt Betty


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