# Cutting Swarm Cells off comb on plastic foundation



## rmax51 (Feb 4, 2013)

Is it possible/practical to cut cells off comb on plastic foundation? I have not tried this, based on the fact that everything I read recommends using wax foundation. But, I hate destroying/wasting multiple swarm cells before I place a plastic frame that had multiple cells in a split. If possible it would sure make expanding my apiary much easier.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Others seem to have some luck doing it, but I've never had much luck. I almost always seem to get a pin hole on the back side. Now, when I really want to save cells that are on plastic foundation, I will build a small cell protector out of 1/8 hardware cloth and push it in around the cell and harvest the virgin, or if another hatches out first use the protected cell elsewhere.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

That is why I use wax foundation. Put the plastic in the super.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Or a partial frame of foundation.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...sheet-of-foundation-in-deep-frames-experiment

These three pics are not swarm cells but you get the idea.










These have obviously emerged, but could have been easily cut out.



















Uh oh


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

rmax51 said:


> Is it possible/practical to cut cells off comb on plastic foundation? I have not tried this, based on the fact that everything I read recommends using wax foundation. But, I hate destroying/wasting multiple swarm cells before I place a plastic frame that had multiple cells in a split. If possible it would sure make expanding my apiary much easier.


I have about a 50% take on supersedure cells on plastic foundation. Just be careful cutting them out so you do not distort them.

I think it is very poor practice to use swarm cells for anything at all with rare exceptions. Swarming is strongly inherited. If you use swarm cells you are breeding for more swarming. Is that something you really want to do when there are so many easy ways to make a new queen from a hive that is not inclined to swarm? If you make it a habit of using swarm cells after a few years you likely will have bees you can not keep in the hive long enough to make any honey for you.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Richard Cryberg said:


> I think it is very poor practice to use swarm cells for anything at all with rare exceptions. Swarming is strongly inherited.


I believe that the context of the cells is the critical issue. If a beekeeper falls behind and his bees are way ahead, then even the best bees are going to swarm. So propagating swarm cells form this scenario would be fine. However, if you're constantly chasing your bees and pulling them out of the trees, then you either need to re-exam your beekeeping practices, or look into your genetics.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

AstroBee said:


> I believe that the context of the cells is the critical issue. .


If I had one hive I would not even remotely consider using a swarm cell. You need more genetic diversity anyhow unless you are quite close to someone with 10 or 20 hives. Better to go buy two or three mated queens and take those frames with swarm cells and make nucs killing all cells you can find and installing the new mated queens. It will save you three weeks of time as the mated queen will be laying in three days.

Now, if I had five or more hives and it is mid July and four have swarmed due to my neglect and the fifth one is preparing to swarm after making over 200 pounds of honey so far while all the rest only made 100 or less I would consider using those swarm cells. That hive might have genetics worth saving in spite of the fact you are breeding for swarming. Anytime you pick a hive to breed from there are trade offs. For instance if that queen was a new queen this spring I would be less inclined to breed from her. On the other hand if this is her third year I would use her without hesitating.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Don't believe that the OP was soliciting advice on how to select breeder queens, but instead asking a simple question on how to save a cell. 



Richard Cryberg said:


> If I had one hive I would not even remotely consider using a swarm cell. You need more genetic diversity anyhow unless you are quite close to someone with 10 or 20 hives.


Not sure I agree with this comment, particularly given the OP originates from FL, which probably has a very high density of honey bees. 

You seem to have the bar set pretty high, that's fine, but not sure everyone has the same perspective. That said, I'm very confident that ANY colony that isn't managed properly will eventually swarm - "swarmy" genetics or not.

Good luck.


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

IMHO,

I have tried two methods to cut cells from plastic foundation. One is to use a pointed sharp knife and make a start hole. Then use a pair of straight tin snips to cut the foundation well out around the cell. This is messy and not a great way to go. The other method I tried was to sand down a metal cutting jigsaw blade so it has a sharp edge with the teeth serrations still showing. This type blade is great for cutting rubber belting with a jig saw. I wrapped some duct tape around the base for a handle and cut the cell out of the plastic foundation. This second method is just barely ok at best.

I have been building boxes and frames this winter and just starting to install wax foundation starter strips and center pieces. The "Lauri Miller method" looks to me to be the absolute very best way to go. Much thanx to Lauri.

Best wishes, LP


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is it possible/practical to cut cells off comb on plastic foundation? 

I won't say it's not possible since others say they do it. I have not been able to and the effort I've spent on it was not worth it. I just put every frame with cells in it's own nuc no matter how many cells are on it and leave it at that. Newly capped queen cells are VERY fragile and all queen cells are somewhat fragile.


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## rmax51 (Feb 4, 2013)

Thanks to those who addressed my question on cutting the cells. Especially Lauri for her alternatives. Those who replied with their management philosophies - not so much.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I think it is very poor practice to use swarm cells for anything at all with rare exceptions. Swarming is strongly inherited. If you use swarm cells you are breeding for more swarming. 

I guess I see that the other way around. On the rare occasion that they are trying to swarm under circumstances that don't make sense to reproduction of the species then I would not use them. But if they are doing what bees should and always have done, I see no problem. They are always well fed and usually at a time they will be well bred. I love swarm queens. I don't usually get any because I don't have swarmy bees.

"For years our bee journals have been printing reams of articles on the question of a non-swarming strain of bees. It has always seemed to me there was a lot of time wasted advocating such an improbable accomplishment, because nature would hardly yield to an arrangement that in itself might destroy the species. If accomplished it would be tantamount to breeding the mating instinct out of domestic animals." --P.C. Chadwick ABJ, April 1936


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> >I think it is very poor practice to use swarm cells for anything at all with rare exceptions. Swarming is strongly inherited. If you use swarm cells you are breeding for more swarming.
> 
> I guess I see that the other way around. On the rare occasion that they are trying to swarm under circumstances that don't make sense to reproduction of the species then I would not use them. But if they are doing what bees should and always have done, I see no problem. They are always well fed and usually at a time they will be well bred. I love swarm queens. I don't usually get any because I don't have swarmy bees.
> 
> "For years our bee journals have been printing reams of articles on the question of a non-swarming strain of bees. It has always seemed to me there was a lot of time wasted advocating such an improbable accomplishment, because nature would hardly yield to an arrangement that in itself might destroy the species. If accomplished it would be tantamount to breeding the mating instinct out of domestic animals." --P.C. Chadwick ABJ, April 1936


:thumbsup::applause:


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## turtle95 (Aug 5, 2012)

I use the OTS method for raising queens , I don't make the notch very deep . then I use a narrow knife I got a hobby shop . some you can curve the blade to get under the cell better .warming up the blade helps too . Forget using swarm cell , Put in a Frame with eggs from your best hives good luck


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I've done it quite a few times. I'd say my success rate is 2/3 or better. I don't cut swarm cells but I put frames with eggs in a queenless nuc or single box and ten days later scrape the cells off with a frame lifter hive tool. Since I don't do swarm cells, I know within a day how old the cells are. I scrape them off on day 10 after putting the frame of eggs in the queenless box. I only scrape off and use the best looking cells. I use the tool to scribe a square or rectangle down to the plastic around the cell. Then I carefully scrape the cell off with the hive tool. If there is a tiny hole in the back of the cell, I carefully pinch it closed. All cells that I have successfully scrape off has emerged. Sometimes I mess a cell up during the process of scraping it off is all. I use the frame lifter tool because it's smooth as glass and has a good long taper to an edge that scrapes the cells off pretty well. I've not done this with really old comb, but have done it with first brood in virgin comb, and with comb that has had one or two rounds of brood in it. Older black tough comb with layers of pupa casings may not scrape as well as what I have experienced. I think it works well for what I do and need.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Hive lifter Tool ????

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?297397-Hive-lift-tool-any-suggestions

Or is it a Hive Tool too lift??


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Haha, Thanks TommyT for catching my Mis-speak. 
Frame lifter tool, or J-Tool, I've heard it called both.
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/product/HD-620.html


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> >Is it possible/practical to cut cells off comb on plastic foundation?
> 
> I won't say it's not possible since others say they do it. I have not been able to and the effort I've spent on it was not worth it. I just put every frame with cells in it's own nuc no matter how many cells are on it and leave it at that. Newly capped queen cells are VERY fragile and all queen cells are somewhat fragile.


+1


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