# Regression Question



## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

The bees typically will not regress the first time they build foundationless unless they are already small cell. It can take 2 or 3 times for them to regress on their own without forcing the issue with HSC or small cell foundation.

If you don't correct the cross comb it will be there until it is removed. It is better to correct is early on before it is all crossed up.

Good Luck


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## Kofu (Jan 26, 2011)

rkereid said:


> It can take _*2 or 3 times*_ for them to regress on their own without forcing the issue [...]


I'm in a similar situation and after reading the same sources I have lots of questions. This new thread gives me a chance to ask: 

What does it mean, "2 or 3 times"? Is that 2 or 3 waves of brood, or 2 or 3 rounds of culling out all the older brood comb and getting the newest generation of nurse bees to draw new comb for the queen to lay in? In terms of # months, how long might it take? I've read it can take 2 or 3 years, which I guess means taking your time getting the old comb out of the hive.

I started last week with a 10-frame medium nuc, locally adapted & treatment-free, from a beekeeper who uses standard-size foundation. I put a second medium super on it, pulled two filled frames up to the upper level, and put two empty frames (wired, with the wedge sharpened and nailed/glued in sideways as a guide) in slots #2 and #9 in the bottom box. Yesterday I looked in, to see how that was going, and found the bees happily drawing out new comb on the frames next to the comb I'd put in the upper box, and in the empty frames in the lower box. (I'm explaining all this as background, but also because I would have appreciated seeing it set out this neatly before I started.) I haven't done a full inspection yet, just waiting for the next nice sunny day.

So the real question (lots of questions): How do I move the frames around, get some to where they'll be used for honey storage, and cull out the largest and then later the intermediate-size comb?

Michael Bush says move the larger-size comb toward the sides of the hive, let them get filled with honey, and eventually take them out of the hive. Now in my situation, I plan to leave most of the honey in the hive, hoping to improve the odds that the bees survive the winter. I don't want to move the honey to where it'll be out of reach, but also I don't want to leave the large comb where it'll be used again for brood.

As I understand it, the general rule is to keep forcing the bees to draw new comb for brood, and as the new bees emerge keep moving the comb that was used for brood to the sides and up until it's in part of the hive used for honey storage. But more specifically, should I move new brood comb upwards first? That how I understand the "unlimited broodnest" approach described in the Idiot's Guide. And then outwards? *Or* do I insert empty foundationless frames into the broodnest (more or less continuously while they're expanding, as long as the flow's on and the weather's warm/hot), moving the frames outwards to the sides as the new bees hatch out? And then later up and/or cull them out.

I guess I'm mixing two approaches -- the "unlimited broodnest" up-and-out approach (maybe that's for bees that are already regressed) and Michael Bush's outward-and-cull approach (to get the bees regressed). [_Note added:_ I've just found M.Bush's page touching on the cusp between these two approaches.]

And in the fall, where does that leave us (the bees and me)? In our area, it seems like we had a lot of dead-outs this year -- from what I've heard maybe 75% (?) -- after a 2-3 week stretch of temps that stayed in the teens and 20s. So whatever I do, I want to round everything off nicely in the fall, leaving the bees happy and prepared for the winter.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#HowToRegress

The problem with regression is that bees that were raised in large cells are larger bees and larger bees build larger cells. So getting them back to normal size will take a couple of turnovers of comb sometimes. Results vary depending on genetics and what size cell the bees were raised on. Pierco, a very popular plastic comb, is typically 5.2mm. While PF100s another popular one are 4.95mm and Rite Cell, another popular one, is 5.4mm. So the bees you start with could be from any of these common sources as well as standard wax, which is 5.4mm. 

http://bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#foundationtoday

So the bottom line is your bees on the first turnover of foundationless comb MIGHT be making the core of the brood nest as small as 4.7mm or as large as 5.2mm. Measure it and find out.


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## Kofu (Jan 26, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> The problem with regression is that bees that were raised in large cells are larger bees and larger bees build larger cells. So getting them back to normal size will take a couple of turnovers of comb sometimes. [...]
> 
> So the bottom line is your bees on the first turnover of foundationless comb MIGHT be making the core of the brood nest as small as 4.7mm or as large as 5.2mm. Measure it and find out.


I'll try and measure tomorrow when the weather is sunnier and I have a chance to do a more thorough inspection. I glanced in yesterday, to see if they're drawing new comb at all, and they are but it looked like a lot of it was pretty big. Which might mean drone comb. I guess I should leave it in, maybe rotate it out and up later to be filled with honey, but that's another complication.

I'm wondering about the specifics of moving frames around. How do I choose between and/or combine different motions:

*outwards* first, inserting empty frames into the broodnest, and moving the brood comb towards the sides,
*upwards* first, pulling the whole broodnest upwards into the next box, as in ULBN.
*mixed* -- and how to decide, frame by frame, under what circumstances?
Another twist on all this -- a lot of what I'm reading assumes a supply of already drawn comb. In the _Idiot's Guide_, it says 
In order to achieve an unlimited broodnest, you should keep the broodnest open by occasionally moving good drawn worker comb into the broodnest area and relocating capped honey frames toward the outside of the boxes.​Problem is, I'm starting pretty much from scratch. It feels like I might be stressing the bees too much if I keep inserting empty frames into their broodnest, but if I don't do that, won't the queen keep laying eggs in the broodcomb already there? What are the trade-offs, and how do I keep it balanced going forward?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That should not be done too much. It's mostly in spring when the bees can use your help to help them increase their brood nest size, plus if you keep the queen busy it can assist with swarm control.

Also don't spread the brood nest out too much, if there is a cold snap and the bees cannot cover it all you can end up with dead brood.

If you don't have drawn comb, a comb of foundation in the middle of the brood nest is fine, long as they are collecting nectar they will draw it out.


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## Kofu (Jan 26, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> That should not be done too much. It's mostly in spring when the bees can use your help to help them increase their brood nest size, plus if you keep the queen busy it can assist with swarm control.
> 
> Also don't spread the brood nest out too much, if there is a cold snap and the bees cannot cover it all you can end up with dead brood.


Thanks, Oldtimer. I've been reading your posts in other threads and I like your perspective and how you're able to share from your experience and try out new ideas.

Right now we have low temps in the 60s, and highs in the 80s. If it goes down to 55° or 60° one night or two, is that a cold snap? It seems like there's lots of bees that were shook into the nuc. I'll look more carefully when I go in next, but if the new queen (started laying ~12 days ago) takes her time getting up to speed, then we might have a population slump for a couple of weeks. Is that a reason to be careful not to stretch out the broodnest too quickly?



Oldtimer said:


> If you don't have drawn comb, a comb of foundation in the middle of the brood nest is fine, long as they are collecting nectar they will draw it out.


Actually, I'm going foundation-less, but from what I've seen so far the bees are drawing new comb with no difficulties. We're in the middle of the main flow, until late June or so.

I might mention we're in the city of Philadelphia, which means there's more different kinds of plants flowering most of the way from Spring into Fall. A slow time in late July through August, from what I hear.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

What we wrote in CIG Beekeeping was based upon our own experience. The bottom of page 131 is where we cover regressing with foundationless frames:



> Some people have had luck simply putting their package bes onto foundationless frames, rotating empty frames in, replacing those with larger cells, and letting the bees regress themselves. Doubtless they will do this eventually, but our experience is that this is too slow a process to get them regressed before pests and disease become a problem. However, if you are able to get package bees that were raised on the small Mann Lake plastic comb, a foundationless approach will work fine.


So, the advice in the book is specifically, if you don't have smaller bees to begin with, don't try to regress your bees by simply going foundationless.

When we have tried, the package bees build 5.1 or 5.2. (a standard business card is 2" the short way...10 cells in 2" gives you a 5.08mm cell size).

If you think you want smaller comb, then I'd recommend doing something to regress them (Mann Lake PF100 series frames would by my suggestion for doing so).

If you want foundationless comb, then don't use foundation....but in the northeast, I wouldn't be confident that the bees can be effectively regressed without foundation in a season....and if the size affects the health (I think it does), then you want this to happen fast.

It's also very difficult (especially for a new beekeeper) to keep rotating empty frames in the broodnest (with or without foundation) without "overdoing it". We are always anxious to "help" our bees build up...but spreading them too thin is a big mistake...one that almost everyone makes, and one that you are more prone to make when you keep wanting them to draw smaller comb.

deknow


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> 1. outwards first, inserting empty frames into the broodnest, and moving the brood comb towards the sides,
> 2. upwards first, pulling the whole broodnest upwards into the next box, as in ULBN.
> 3. mixed -- and how to decide, frame by frame, under what circumstances?

I play it by ear. The deciding factor as far as whether they can handle an empty frame (my preference over a drawn frame) is if they fill that gap you plan to put it in with festooning bees in a mater of a minute or two. If they don't, they aren't strong enough yet, so put it on the outside edge instead.


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## Kofu (Jan 26, 2011)

deknow said:


> What we wrote in CIG Beekeeping was based upon our own experience. The bottom of page 131 is where we cover regressing with foundationless frames:
> Some people have had luck simply putting their package bes onto foundationless frames, rotating empty frames in, replacing those with larger cells, and letting the bees regress themselves. Doubtless they will do this eventually, but our experience is that this is too slow a process to get them regressed before pests and disease become a problem. [...]​So, the advice in the book is specifically, if you don't have smaller bees to begin with, don't try to regress your bees by simply going foundationless.


Thanks for coming into this conversation. (Dean?) The _Idiot's Guide_ is the main book recommended in the Beekeepers Guild here in Philadelphia. I've read it closely and what you wrote there is the driving force for why I'm here asking these questions.

I guess you could say I'm trying my luck (and the bees are going along for the ride). Basically, I walked backwards into the problem and now we're kind of stuck with it. I didn't realize until too late that the beekeeper selling the nuc was running at the standard size, and I'd already bought my equipment and made the basic decision about going foundationless. So I gulped and decided, okay, we're going to try this perilous path.

Having outspent the budget already for equipment, I decided I can't try to force them to down-size by giving them small-size foundation or HSC. But I wanted the locally-adapted bees and had already committed to buying the nuc.



deknow said:


> When we have tried, the package bees build 5.1 or 5.2. (a standard business card is 2" the short way... 10 cells in 2" gives you a 5.08mm cell size).


Yes, and ... the bees died? As in the book, you're being too subtle.



deknow said:


> If you want foundationless comb, then don't use foundation .... but in the northeast, I wouldn't be confident that the bees can be effectively regressed without foundation in a season ... and if the size affects the health (I think it does), then you want this to happen fast.
> 
> It's also very difficult (especially for a new beekeeper) to keep rotating empty frames in the broodnest (with or without foundation) without "overdoing it". We are always anxious to "help" our bees build up...but spreading them too thin is a big mistake...one that almost everyone makes, and one that you are more prone to make when you keep wanting them to draw smaller comb.


I do appreciate your joining this conversation, because you put your finger right on the nub of the problem. I accept it's a problem. I don't intend to do too much to "help" the bees, but -- accepting your analysis -- pests and diseases are going to be more of a problem. The bees will be working different sizes of comb for awhile, and I'll be pulling out larger comb as fast as I can without stressing them too much.

But to the specifics, now, as we all accept that the problem exists. Is the goal to do it "in a season," meaning by sometime this fall? What if the bees stabilize at 5.1mm by the end of this year, and I manage to get all the original frames that came with the nuc out? Is that a reasonable goal?

If others want to come in too, with their opinions, I'd welcome it.


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## Kofu (Jan 26, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> > 1. outwards first, inserting empty frames into the broodnest, and moving the brood comb towards the sides,
> > 2. upwards first, pulling the whole broodnest upwards into the next box, as in ULBN.
> > 3. mixed -- and how to decide, frame by frame, under what circumstances?
> 
> I play it by ear. The deciding factor as far as whether they can handle an empty frame (my preference over a drawn frame) is if they fill that gap you plan to put it in with festooning bees in a mater of a minute or two. If they don't, they aren't strong enough yet, so put it on the outside edge instead.


Meaning when you pull a frame out, you watch for a minute to see if they fill the gap?

It kind of freaks me out, the sheer mass of bees and, as you say, that they festoon together like that. So yes, there seem to be a lot of bees that came with this nuc, and I guess I have to overcome my inhibitions about pushing them around. It's like stirring candy or something!

I was wondering if I might take some of the new comb they're making in the upper box and insert that into the broodnest in the lower box. I realize rearranging what they've got going can be disheartening to the bees, that they may lose time getting re-situated.

But the plan is to push the original, larger-cell comb to the sides, eventually to cull it out. So it seems like I have to do something like that. Since I'm just starting out, I don't have any empty drawn comb, so I have to either insert empty frames or use frames that they've filled from elsewhere in the hive.


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## Kofu (Jan 26, 2011)

Okay, another specific question. I've read elsewhere about how the bees can use the larger cell comb (drone comb, left-over standard size) for honey storage.

I didn't come into this intending to steal more than a frame or two of honey this year. So with frames of capped honey using the larger-cell comb, maybe I should start stacking them on the sides at the top of the hive -- whatever box I'm up to. Or should I try using them for guides, closer to the nest as it expands?

It's a couple of months until we hit the dearth of late-July into August. At that point, do I need to have the filled frames of honey closer in to the nest, or is that more of an issue in the winter, and if they need the honey in August they'll be able to get to it wherever it is?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Meaning when you pull a frame out, you watch for a minute to see if they fill the gap?

Yes.

>It kind of freaks me out, the sheer mass of bees and, as you say, that they festoon together like that.

A strong hive will do that in the brood nest in a minute. The brood nest in a strong hive IS a mass of bees.

> So yes, there seem to be a lot of bees that came with this nuc, and I guess I have to overcome my inhibitions about pushing them around. It's like stirring candy or something!

Be gentle.

>I was wondering if I might take some of the new comb they're making in the upper box and insert that into the broodnest in the lower box. I realize rearranging what they've got going can be disheartening to the bees, that they may lose time getting re-situated.

Why? An empty frame will accomplish more. What is in the upper box may be honey storage. What they build in the brood nest will be brood comb.

>But the plan is to push the original, larger-cell comb to the sides, eventually to cull it out. 

Anytime there is a flow and it does not have brood, I would pull it.

>So it seems like I have to do something like that. Since I'm just starting out, I don't have any empty drawn comb, so I have to either insert empty frames or use frames that they've filled from elsewhere in the hive. 

They will draw comb.


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

Hi Kofu,

I know you have outspent your budget but the Mann Lake frames are around $2.00 each and even if you only ordered 5 frames, you would get ahead of where you are. The more bees raised in the PF 100's, the more small bees you'll have to draw the small foundationless comb. If you can get a $100 order together with other beekeepers in your club, you'll get free shipping (and maybe be able to use the shipping savings for a few more frames!).

I would look at the sum total of what I have spent so far on bees and equipment and look at the cost of the additional frames as a small percentage of that total. Even if you lose the bees later, you'll have the small cell comb drawn out for future bees and be that much further ahead.

An advantage of using some sort of foundation is that the queen can start to lay in the bottom of the cells BEFORE the bees have fully drawn them out.

Good luck!

Ramona (aka Laurie, the other author of the Idiot's Guide)


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

This is free, and worth reading:
http://beeuntoothers.com/Advanced_bee_culture.pdf
...one thing that is covered in this book (and not really anywhere else, that I'm aware of) is a perspective from a time when foundation was becoming almost ubiquitous...the author covers situations where one (foundation or foundationless) is preferable over another.

deknow


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## Kofu (Jan 26, 2011)

deknow said:


> http://beeuntoothers.com/Advanced_bee_culture.pdf ... a perspective from a time when foundation was becoming almost ubiquitous ... the author covers situations where one (foundation or foundationless) is preferable over another.


Thanks! got it. Advanced Bee Culture, by W.Z. Hutchinson. A.I. Root Company: 1918 (5th ed.). The chapter 'The Use and Abuse of Comb Foundation," is pp. 59-63 in the book (pp. 66-70 of the pdf).

I've skimmed it, and will read it more closely. The main trade-off seems to be around competition for space for new honey, vs. space for the queen to lay eggs. I just did a quick inspection of my hive, and found eggs and larvae scattered in several frames of capped honey and nectar, so that seems to be the case for me. Hutchinson seems to think foundation's main advantage comes when honey production slacks off and honey must be consumed in order for the bees to make new comb.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Kofu said:


> I just did a quick inspection of my hive, and found eggs and larvae scattered in several frames of capped honey and nectar, so that seems to be the case for me.


That's a sign of plenty of nectar coming in, basically so much is coming in they are jamming it among the brood, plus the queen needs laying room so is doing it anyway.

This is the BEST time to get comb built. Go ahead and start adding frames among the brood nest, you will find the bees will build them quickly, long as there's enough bees to cover everything.

I'd also go with what Ramona said, bees left to regress naturally can take a long time, years even, and that's if they ever get there. If you can "force" them with some foundation made to the small size it will speed things up.

And the budget? Take one of those combs of honey, and eat it with the family on your breakfast piece of toast or whatever. Actually getting a harvest and enjoying it will sweeten other family members and they see this hobby gives back as well as needing some set up money to be spent.


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## Kofu (Jan 26, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> This is the BEST time to get comb built. Go ahead and start adding frames among the brood nest, you will find the bees will build them quickly, long as there's enough bees to cover everything.


Yeah, I did that too, with the inspection. Broke up the brood nest in two places, with frames of partially drawn comb. There were also frames of what I think was nectar, cleared out in the brood area of the frame (lower middle), possibly with eggs or awaiting eggs.



Oldtimer said:


> I'd also go with what Ramona said, bees left to regress naturally can take a long time, years even, and that's if they ever get there. If you can "force" them with some foundation made to the small size it will speed things up.


I think at this point I'm pretty much in the groove with foundationless, and next time I go in I'll try to take the time to measure the new comb, maybe in 7-10 days. None of the new brood was capped, so far as I could tell, and I'd like to let things settle a bit, let the bees fill in the several frames that are still empty, and ramp up production in the flow that's underway. Temps in the 80s, lows in the high 60s, and it seemed like there were lots of bees festooning like crazy, so hopefully the brood nest will be well-established and I can begin to spread it out and plan to cull out the original larger-cell comb.

Is it alright to put frames of capped honey up in the corners, and keep them there in reserve, even as the stack of boxes grows?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Kofu said:


> Is it alright to put frames of capped honey up in the corners, and keep them there in reserve, even as the stack of boxes grows?


Yes, and they can also be used with new frames between to keep the new combs being built straight.

Come winter time, be aware honey combs left on the outer may granulate.


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