# Odd behavior?



## charmd2 (May 25, 2008)

I would start with getting a smoker and opening it up. then you at least know what you're looking at. how much brood is there, if there is any honey, those type of questions.


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## criscojohn (Sep 11, 2010)

Thanks. We have a smoker, but have been hesitant to open it up until we have a practiced eye helping us. At this point, I'm not sure we would know what's a healthy brood pattern, what are healthy brood, what's supposed to be there and what's not, etc. We're really concerned about the lack of alarm when the wasps come nosing around. There was more alarm when I put the entrance reducer on than when the hornet tried to get in. We also didn't want to open the hive up unnecessarily this late in the season. I guess a few more days won't make much difference, after not being "managed" for a couple years.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>I'll start with the obvious first. We've had some yellow jackets nosing around the hive--only 1 at a time. On 2 separate occasions we've seen a yellowjacket make off with a white pupa. Can't say if the yellow jacket went in and got it, or just took one that was dumped on the "porch". We did see the yellowjacket walk in the entrance undisturbed and walk out about 10 seconds later. There was NO Alarm on the part of the bees . . .
Not a good sign. Sounds like a very, very weak (few bees) colony.

>Today a bald-faced hornet was trying to get in, I think. It would walk toward the entrance from the top until it engaged a bee. Then try another area and so on. After about 4-5 tries it engaged another bee, they fought, and the hornet flew off with the bee. Again, NO Alarm from the bees . . .
Again, sounds like a weak colony.

>There also are several bees walking off the porch onto the ground and are unable to fly . . . Some have deformed wings . . .
Sounds like a "sick", heavly mite-infested (and thus weak) colony.

>Today, a bee fought with and took out another bee from the hive. I followed them until they dropped. The fighter took off and left the other on the ground a distance away from the hive . . 
Sounds like "robber" activity ("normal" for a weak colony, but not ever a "good" outcome).

>I put in a sticky board today to check for mites . . .
What was your mite count?

>after the hornet, put on an entrance reducer. 
Good Idea, especially if hive is weak 

>The bees were more alarmed at the entrance reducer than with the hornet! 
Sometime, anything "blocking" the entrance can cause some "interest". Hope the bees still have enough room to get in and out.

>There appears to be a fair amount of bees coming back with pollen--more not than with, though.
Incomming pollen is always good. Can you count (and tell us) how many "bees-per-minute" are bring in pollen?

>One last question--some of the bees are going to my birdbath for water. There is a mosquito dunk in it. Could that be harmful to the larvae or bees? 
Yes. If you empty and refill birdbath every few days to prevent mosquito from hatching, that would be better. 

>Most go to the koi pond for their water.
Why not use some type of bee feeder to provide water AT THE HIVE for the bees? I often use a boardman feeder for water.

>have just met a local beekeeper who, hopefully, can help us out . . .
Maybe he can help us ALL


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## natureboy (Jun 8, 2010)

go to brushy mountain bee farm website and find the videos section. there are a lot of videos (webinars) that will help you out. go to utube and search honey bees and you will find videos on all kinds of bee related topics it will give you pictures of what you need to see, it has helped me alot. it is late in the year and if you need to feed you cant afford to wait. that is what i would do. good luck.


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## criscojohn (Sep 11, 2010)

Thanks Dave. We suspect the hive is weak. The keeper we got it from hadn't done anything (medication, etc) to it for 2 years. I'll check the mite count tomorrow, after having the sticky board in for about 24 hours. And I'll count the bees bringing in pollen, too. Hopefully the news won't be too dire. We won't have our helper for another week or so. Thanks,
Chris


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## criscojohn (Sep 11, 2010)

Thanks natureboy. I'll check it out asap.


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## criscojohn (Sep 11, 2010)

Ok. I think we're FUBAR. Yesterday was rainy and cloudy. Almost no activity at the hive--very few foragers, very sporadic coming and going. To be fair, I didn't see any wasps or other native bees foraging either--weather was that bad. I was able to get a mite count after leaving the sticky board in for about 20 hours. It was 120 plus or minus. I assume that's really high and we have a real problem. Medication is on the way. I also found 1 wax moth stuck to the sticky board. Hopefully we can save the hive. We've also thought about just letting the hive die and start fresh in spring, but that is against my nature. I have to try. Looks like we'll be trying to un=do 2 years of neglect. Hopefully, it's not too late for them. (For those that are ready to jump all over me right now, let me just say that we just inherited this hive about 3 weeks ago, with no experience and no beekeeping supplies. The previous keeper has been ill and neglected the hive for the last coupla years. We've had to order everything--most is in, waiting for the rest of it this week. Have a new mentor, but may have to go in by ourselves without guidance.)


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

You always talking about medication…. “Medication is on the way etc.”, are your bees sick, what kind of medication you are looking for?
Do you take medication regularly without been sick? 

You must check for mites, and treat your bees to get rid of these parasites. It is not easy to give a beginner advice over the internet when you never opened a hive. My advice, look for help in a nearby bee club and buy a good book about beekeeping for beginners.
The winter is long and the best time to read, read and more read. There are excellent articles on the internet also.


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## criscojohn (Sep 11, 2010)

I don't want to get wise here, but in the sentence before "medication is on the way" I said I did a mite count and got upwards of 120 in a 20 hour period. So the medication on the way is Api Life Var, along with Terramycin for foulbrood (preventive here in the States) and Fumigillin-B (also preventive here in the States). Also waiting for menthol crystals for the tracheal mites, which I also assume are there. Some of the bees seem to be exhibiting signs of viral infection associated with Varroa mites. The general vigor of the hive seems to be declining. I also wrote that we have met a local beekeeper here who is willing to help us with the first opening, but he won't be available for another week or so. We're just trying to do what we can until then. We have read several books and watched many online videos and are educating ourselves as quickly as possible. Just trying to gather as much helpful information as possible until we can get into the hive.


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## honeybeekeeper (Mar 3, 2010)

What books have you read criscojohn????? No need to be affraid of the hive if you read the books and know that the bees wont be to happy around this time of year and the books mentions about them deformed wings and what causes the problem. I believe your not to sure about opening the hive! You can admit it, you just need to wait for help. Its just too bad you didnt get to experience a new bee package, you just might think of beekeeping alittle differently.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Short of opening the hive, it sounds like you are gathering a lot of information from observation. I would wait the extra week for a knowlegable mentor to assist you in opening the hive for the first time. Most people get into their hives the first time when they are new packages or nucs, at a time when they have a small but healthy population. They have the luxury of spending some time on a nice spring or summer afternoon, working with all new, loose fresh frames and when the bees are out foraging and the hive is not hunkering down for the winter and protecting their stores.

You've taken on the task of adopting an existing and possibly ailing hive so it is important that the hive is diagnosed properly and any treatment necessary is started in a timely manner. The bees will be less inclined to have you in the hive at this time of year and doing a complete inspection for the first time, much less diagnosing any problems, will be much more difficult. Frames will be likely be propolized together and burr comb will fill every possible nook and cranny.

Ignore those who have a need to belittle you for wanting to wait until an experienced beek is on hand to help. It sounds to me like you are on the right path, already have a store of knowledge to help you in your observations and will learn even more when your classes begin. I expect you will be here helping people long before some "experts" learn to stop belittling others. 

Wayne


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

“The general vigor of the hive seems to be declining.” … during summer a strong colony has up to 70.000 bees, in winter approx 10.000 or less, depends on the location. 

Apilif Var is a Thymol product and kills Varroa AND Tracheal mites. Using Menthol crystals in this case is waste of money. Terramycin for foulbrood is IMO useless, it doesn’t kill foulbrood spores. If your hive has foulbrood you hiding the disease for a while till the whole bee yard are infected. The only cure is fire. Fumigillin-B is also antibiotic and should not used in food production. 1 gram Thymol solved in a teaspoon alcohol and than mixed into 4 liter syrup is a much better cure for both kind of Nosema … and cost only a fraction. 

This is the time winter bees hatching and with holes in there bodies from Varroa mites they have no change to reach the spring. As soon as they going for a cleaning flight they start bleeding and not coming back, next year start early (mid August is the latest time to start) with your Varroa treatment to get healthy winter bees.
A naturally mite drop of 120 mites in 24 hours and bees with deformed wings this time of the year, I would not waste any money to save the hive. This is a death candidate and I bet there are gone in a few weeks. 
Be honest and lets us know whether I’m right or not.


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## criscojohn (Sep 11, 2010)

Thank you Wayne and honeybeekeeper (you changed your post though, didn't you, HBK?) Thanks for the vote of confidence and advice. We know we've jumped off the deep end, but it looks like our "swimmies" are finally here and we can actually get down to businsess soon. Hopefully the hive can be saved. On an up note, there seem to be new bees taking orientation flights every day, there is still foraging activity, there are only 1-2 dead brood each morning and only a few more wing-deformed adults--not large numbers. However, when the total number of bees is down, I know that becomes more significant. We should be getting into the hive on Sunday. I'll keep everyone posted as to what we find.
Thanks,
Chris


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## criscojohn (Sep 11, 2010)

Thank you Axtmann for your advice. I don't expect to find foulbrood--the previous owner said he's never seen it in his 20+ years of beekeeping.We hope not, anyway, I think we'll have enough problems without that. The general recommendation here is to preventively treat for that and Nosema before there are any problems. I wasn't aware of thymol treating both types of mites, although I'm an avid reader of labels before I use anything. I'll keep the menthol on hand for future use. We'll see what happens on Sunday and what we find. Hopefully we can save the hive.


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## honeybeekeeper (Mar 3, 2010)

Well just from knowing the situation and from what i read, i thought i would be nice and reword it but still keeping to the truth! I learned alot by reading several books and since i read several books it left alot of questions that i didnt have to ask when i first started!! I started out with bee packages, the same mth a captured my first swarm...built 5 complete bee hives, built a bee vac, built several TBH and now i wouldnt mind getting involved with queen rearing since i built everything that i will need!


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## natureboy (Jun 8, 2010)

i wouldnt wait to do an inspection. you need to find out if you have a laying queen or not. use the books and the internet to see what you are supposed to see in the hive. reduce the entrence to one bee space and remove any brood supers the bees dont need. this will help the bees to fend off the wax moths and any other pests they are dealing with. you can add the supers back as the bees need them.

as for medications i would only treat for mites as you dont know if you have any other problems. the reason i say that is you dont want to create a resistant virus. fumagilin-b does work but is an antibiotic and if you use it but dont need it you may create a resistant strain of the virus. the same goes for terrramiacin. go with what your local beeks do for starters and adjust that as you learn.

one thing i have done is to start useing brood builder patties and honey b healthy. they help to suppliment anything the bees cant get on there own. my bees have responded to them verry well.

as for not giveing up i have the same feeling. as long as they are willing to fight i will do anything i can to help them. i wish you all the luck in the world. keep up the fight. take pictures for your own reference and post them if you can. hope something in this post helps.


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## criscojohn (Sep 11, 2010)

All of our supplies and meds have finally arrived. Now we're waiting for our experienced beek to help us out Sunday. This hive has been neglected for at least 2 years, 2 more days won't matter.

"Silver Lining" --- Saw something today while I was cleaning out the other 2 deeps from the completely dead hive he gave us. It had a lot of mouse damage and wax moth damage. I cleaned it thoroughly after we got it, was able to save most of the frames that still had drawn comb. I wanted to check them today in case we need to replace any frames when we open on Sunday. There were a few areas of fresh "frass" from, I assume, wax moth eggs that were missed the first time around. I got in with my hive tool (love that thing!) and dug around to see if I could find anything living. I found a few braconid wasp cocoons mixed in with the frass. I doubted myself because I didn't find any caterpillers/larvae, but then I actually saw a few wasps crawling around on the comb. I'm familiar with these because we get them on our tobacco hornworms every summer on our tomato plants (Sidebar: yes, I know they should be tomato hornworms, but for some reason, even tho there isn't any tobacco for I guess hundreds of miles, we get tobacco's not tomato's). I also had previously spotted a couple of the wasps on the sticky board, and didn't really make the connection. Looks like these wonderful little wasps might be parasitizing the wax moth larvae. Heck, we can use all the help we can get.

I'll post after the opening with all our findings--good or bad.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

While we're waiting for your Sunday report, lets go off-topic for a minute and discuss wax moths. 

That was an interesting observation about the parasitic wasps in the hive. I haven't had any contact with the evil moth here in Maine yet. I believe that braconid wasps are available commercially as eggs. I wonder if innoculating the beeyard with the insect could have positive effects in areas hit hard by the moths.

At the other extreme, today's Wall Street Journal had an article about insects as gormet human food. "The Brooklyn Kitchen, a store that holds classes and events, is hosting an $85-a-head insect tasting menu and drink pairing on Sept. 18. Its website touts Wax Moth Larvae ceviche, with a Brooklyn Lager."

I'll pass. 

Wayne


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## criscojohn (Sep 11, 2010)

Oh darn! I already have other plans. UGGGHHHHH!


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## green2btree (Sep 9, 2010)

My first hive was very similar to yours, had also been neglected for two years. I tried to save it, but was unsuccessful. It still was not a waste of time though, I learned a lot, and I'm sure you will too. You are going to make some mistakes and have some bad luck here and there but that is to be expected.

JC


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## criscojohn (Sep 11, 2010)

Thanks JC. I know we're taking on a lot taking on this neglected hive. Still, I can't let them die without trying (not in my nature), although that might still be the ultimate result. Depends on what we find tomorrow when our expert comes. No matter what, we'll still probably start another hive next spring. From the beginning, so we'll get the experience the "proper" way. All we've learned so far will be put to good use come spring, and hopefully through winter with our current hive.


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