# Pattie supplements



## Ian

Here is a look at my pattie recipe; 

Dry Ingredients

100lbs Granulated Sugar

25lbs Brewer’s Yeast (48% protein)
12lbs Dried Whole Egg (48% protein)

Wet Ingredients

5 litres Water (add more if needed to get proper consistency, should be malleable but not runny)
3 cups Vegetable Oil (high quality is best to preserve consistency, can dry out with watery oil)

3 cups Lemon Juice

Makes 150lbs

Mr. Latshaw, if you dont mind me asking, how much of your Vit and Min Supplement would I add to the mix to create a balanced diet? Is your Vit and Min supplement mixed to accommodate this recipe?
Thanks in Advance!


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## grozzie2

I've seen many references to using dried eggs in various feed recipies. Is there any reason for dried eggs, over just cracking in whole eggs ?

Dried stuff is rather expensive to buy, and I've got a coop full of hens giving us more fresh eggs than we can eat, so, fresh eggs are cheap, dried rather spendy, is the reason I ask.


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## JSL

Ian,

Short answer is yes, the supplement will work. It is primarily formulated to provide nutrients you won't get with most ingredients. Here is a link for dosage at the bottom of the page http://latshawapiaries.com/index.php?page=latshaw-supplement. The table at the bottom of the page is based on a 5# per ton rate which gives a nutrient value about 1/3 of what we think is optimal. We have been upping the recommended rate to 10# per ton which puts nutrient values at about 2/3 of what we think is optimal. For your recipe, I would stick closer to the 5# per ton rate as you are feeding mostly sugar which would be 0.375# supplement per batch. When we mix a complete diet, in house, we actually use a higher rate of the vitamin and mineral supplement and about another additional 50# per ton of minerals, depending on the bulk ingredients. BUT, this is only because we calculate each nutrient in each ingredient. 

Your patty break down is roughly:

66.6% sugar
11.84% protein
7.33% water
0.88% oil


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## apis maximus

grozzie2 said:


> I've seen many references to using dried eggs in various feed recipies. Is there any reason for dried eggs, over just cracking in whole eggs ?
> 
> Dried stuff is rather expensive to buy, and I've got a coop full of hens giving us more fresh eggs than we can eat, so, fresh eggs are cheap, dried rather spendy, is the reason I ask.


Same situation here *grozzie2. *Lots of eggs from my chickens also.
Here, I made a comment on this on a similar thread, see post #31:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...n-patty-supplementation&p=1176274#post1176274


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## JSL

I don't see why you can't use fresh eggs, but spoilage may be a bigger issue, just be sure to account for the water content of the eggs. The mixture sure wont be shelf stable...

I should note that if you account for the fat in eggs, Ian's total recipe actually comes out to be about 4.16% fat/oil.


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## Ian

grozzie2 said:


> and I've got a coop full of hens giving us more fresh eggs than we can eat, so, fresh eggs are cheap, dried rather spendy, is the reason I ask.


Salmonella concerns perhaps?


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## Ian

JSL said:


> I should note that if you account for the fat in eggs, Ian's total recipe actually comes out to be about 4.16% fat/oil.


So is the reason they put egg into this recipe is for not only the added protein but also the fat?


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## My-smokepole

Not to rail road this thread where do you typically get the egg whites and the yeast?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Note that all of the references (prior to post #8) are to _whole egg_, not 'egg whites'.


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## apis maximus

Ian said:


> So is the reason they put egg into this recipe is for not only the added protein but also the fat?


Yes, fat is also present. If we talk about whole egg, you have about 12% protein and 9% fat. If we talk just the egg yolk, which I use, you get about 16% protein and 26% fat. 

So if you measure by weight, 100 grams of egg yolk would have about 16 grams of protein and 26 grams of fat. The bulk of the rest to balance 100, is water.

But the beauty of the egg yolk, is its property to be a great emulsifier. Gets water soluble products and fat soluble products all getting along smoothly so to speak. Look up Lecithin ( present in the egg yolk), which again, is used as an emulsifier for a lot of things. 

Honey Bee Healthy has emulsifier in it to have water, sugar and EO all mixed together and remain mixed.

As for Salmonella...I'd say, not an issue from this angle.


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## JSL

Ditto what Apis said. I calculated Ian's formulation based on an assumed 41% fat content of dried whole eggs.

Eggs are also considered a high quality protein and provide a source of cholesterol. There is still debate over whether or not bees are able to synthesize their own cholesterol or need it supplemented in their diet.


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## RAK

Corn syrup instead of water helps the drying issue.

Is this a late winter pollen patty? Why the very high sugar? If I were to use your listed ingredients in original post I would use 50lb egg 50lb yeast and 100lb sugar but I figure we all might have different goals due to climate differences. After all its the AA ratios that are important.


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## Ian

It's a recipe I pulled from the Ontario Beekeepers Association web page, come out of Guelph.
All these patty recipes interest me. 
With the wrong conditions patties are ignored by our hives. Seems we need to attract them and encourage them to eat with more sugars. 
I quit buying patties formulated in the States... I don't get a consistent feeding on them. Others claim success. Funny how these things are but what I do know is mixing my own recipe with higher sugars increased consumption (obviously), I put more feed into them in a shorter time period which was my goal; stimulation and boosting the protein stores in the nest. 

Decreasing the sugars ended up with less patty consumption to the point of scraping them off the top bars and tossing into the bush.


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## beepro

Adding whole egg yolks into the sub will grow black mold faster. The shelf life is close to nil.
One night outside and the molds took over in pockets. Should of freeze those after making. About 10 lbs of the sub loss..
Maybe my place have the molds. Make sure the prep area is clean and sanitized. The powder egg is better maybe more
sanitize than the fresh eggs. No more chicken eggs in the sub for me the next time. The commercial sub has an orange and
anise smell to it. Don't have the recipe for this mixture tough. Anyone?


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## JSL

Using anise dates back to I think the 70's or so when the USDA worked out a diet, perhaps it was the Beltsville Bee Diet?


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## Ian

Beepro, I do not want Mold... I will keep your comment in the back of my mind when testing out this mix.

The recipe here says to add lemon juice. Their follow up to the recipe states the lemon juice is to add palatableity and attracts the bees to the patty. I have read that increasing the ph provides a more favorable environment in the bees gut for digestion.

Any comments on this would be appreciated.


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## Rader Sidetrack

> increasing the ph provides ....

Perhaps you meant _decreasing _the ph? (more acid = lower ph)


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## Ian

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > increasing the ph provides ....
> 
> Perhaps you meant _decreasing _the ph? (more acid = lower ph)


sorry, that is what I meant! Thanks Rader!

Early morning visit to Beesource over my first cup of morning coffee


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## johno

I made up some patties from a supplement using brewers yeast, soy and some of JSL's additive to 300% sugar water and a spoonful of coconut oil also a few drops of lemongrass oil. Put this out on a paper plate, also another plate with 2 piles of dry powder one the supplement that was in the patty and the other Canadian chick pea flower( Shashi) temps were above 55*F. Bees took a look at the patties but did not feed on them, did not feed on the dry supplement either but carried off the chick pea flour as fast as I could provide it for them. I then mixed the dry supplement 50/50 with the chick pea flour and the bees still carried it off. It would appear with a choice palatability does count.
Johno


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## zhiv9

Ian said:


> It's a recipe I pulled from the Ontario Beekeepers Association web page, come out of Guelph.


I am pretty sure the OBA got the recipe from David Mendes. It performed better than commercially produced patties in tests done by the OBA Tech transfer Team on colonies sent to blueberries. The results are in an issue of the OBJ.


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## Markt

Ian have you tried this recipe? We made around 10,000 lbs of it this spring (First attempt at making protein patties ever) and found we had to almost double the amount of water called for in the recipe to achieve a proper mix and consistency... I'm thinking about doing some math and using premixed sugar syrup instead of the dry sugar and water this year to help with the mixing process. It's a little more expensive but not outrageously so. What do you think?


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## Ian

I'm planning on mixing some up this season to see how the bees like it. Last year I started mixing my own patties using Beepro and sugar about at the same ratio as this recipe. 
I'm interested in the cost comparison but I have not had a chance to look around for dried egg yet.


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## Ian

No comments on adding lemon juice to lower the ph??


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## grozzie2

zhiv9 said:


> I am pretty sure the OBA got the recipe from David Mendes. It performed better than commercially produced patties in tests done by the OBA Tech transfer Team on colonies sent to blueberries. The results are in an issue of the OBJ.


I've never seen the actual article, but have had it paraphrased in conversations with others a few times. My impression was, it slightly out-performed the others under test, and I've always wondered how much variation there was, ie, was the difference significant, or lost in the noise statistically ?


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## JSL

Ian,

Maybe someone with a little more background in chemistry can chime in, but with the amount of lemon juice you are adding, I do not anticipate moving the pH much at all. At least that has been my experience with it and measuring the pH in formulations. I know it is often written about as using lemon juice to lower the pH, but I am not sure exactly how much it would take to significantly drop it.


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## RAK

Markt said:


> Ian have you tried this recipe? We made around 10,000 lbs of it this spring (First attempt at making protein patties ever) and found we had to almost double the amount of water called for in the recipe to achieve a proper mix and consistency... I'm thinking about doing some math and using premixed sugar syrup instead of the dry sugar and water this year to help with the mixing process. It's a little more expensive but not outrageously so. What do you think?


Substituting dry sugar for sugar syrup is a bad idea. I would keep the dry sugar in but add HFCS instead of water. Keeps patty soft for a longer period of time.


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## RAK

Ian said:


> No comments on adding lemon juice to lower the ph??


I use Citric acid instead of juice. More convenient.


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## JodieToadie

Ian,
Maybe you had already seen this but Global Patty posts a link on their website to Allen Dyck's website and claims it I their recipe. I did speak to Dr. Medhat Nasr this fall and he absolutely swears that his research indicates they have the best formula. I have no bias but his opinion carries a lot of weight for me. http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/default.htm


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## Ian

Just so I do not misunderstand you Jodie, are you saying the OBA recipe is the same as global's ?


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## JodieToadie

Ian said:


> Just so I do not misunderstand you Jodie, are you saying the OBA recipe is the same as global's ?


No, I was just pointing to another recipe.

You said earlier in the thread 'All these patty recipes interest me. ' I thought maybe another would interest you. 
As I said in my last post Dr. Medhat Nasr (Alberta Provincial Apiculture) swears by global. We were talking and he said that his professor when he was doing his dissertation conducted a study on pollen patties. He also worked with closely with global. His claim was that there is a marked improvement in bee build up and health based on the pollen content in the patties up to 15%. After 15% there was no change. If you have time in the cold winter he is definitely worth calling. I don't live in the province either and he always makes time for me. (I realize irradiated pollen is very pricy. But by the sounds of the marked improvement Dr. Nasr had me sold.)


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## Roland

Ian - from "PH" Wikipedia:

"Mathematically, pH is the negative logarithm of the activity of the (solvated) hydronium ion,"(the loose H+ that makes an acid acid)


So it is a log scale, like decibels and tornadoes? If my memory is right, it would take roughly 10 imes as much to go from Ph 
6 to Ph 5 as it would from Ph 7 to Ph 6. Yes, a little lemon juice will shift the Ph from 7 easily, but not much further.


crazy roland


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## Mbeck

If it Mendes's recipe perhaps the high sugar is to promote rapid consumption before hive beetles get to it. Just speculation, he does spend time here.

Dave Hackenberg has a similar recipe here.

http://hackenbergapiaries.org/pdf/Protein Patty Recipe.pdf

I think the mineral supplement he uses now may be originally for poultry.
I've found HBH helps speed consumption and inverting a bunch of the sugar (50?) help maintain consistency.

Keith,
Will you post your current sub recipe, nutition profile, mill specs and ingredient source list ?

Anyone have a links to studies done explain if and why cinnamon added to sub is beneficial?
Would Citric acid alone would give more consitant ph control?


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## Vance G

Global has a plant in Butte which makes their sub readily available to me. I am really high on their 15% pollen patties. The bees build up on them very well and they must taste good. They all get eaten. So many times in the past the supplement patties I bought turned into these dried turds the bees just walked on. Global will mix any recipe you want though and they offer a recipe from Dr Latshaw 46 cents a pound cheaper than the 15% pollen one. I may have to run a comparison. These people really want to do business with you and service is dynamite.


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## Ian

Mbeck said:


> Anyone have a links to studies done explain if and why cinnamon added to sub is beneficial?


Funny you mention cinnamon. I was talking to another beekeeper recently who told me some beekeepers use cinnamon to treat chalk brood effectively. 
I have never tried it or heard of it...


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## Ian

Jodie, I have thought about pollen in patties and many neighbours also swear by it.
But most pollen on the market comes from China. And we know what comes out of China... 
Or if it's not from China it's collected locally, and most all pollen collected on this country side is sprayed with fungicide.
What's your thoughts on that ?


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## beepro

Ian, have you consider trapping your own local pollen at the peak of the season?
Maybe the canola pollen is a good addition to your patty mix too.


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## Ben Little

Ian, regarding the patties that you had that weren't consumed fast enough VS the ones you made, was there any difference in the production/health of the hive ?
I really want to make my own patties this year and just wanted to get my ducks in a row if you know what I mean 
I get confused when I see all of the dry pollen sub and beekeepers doing all kinds of different things with it because it makes it better. I would love to hear how this turns out for you, if you decide on a recipe could you let me know or post it somewhere ?

I was going to go with FeedBee or BeePro this year and use it as a base for mixing.


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## JSL

You simply can't go wrong with Global Patties! They are a great family run business and make a great product!


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## Ian

beepro said:


> have you consider trapping your own local pollen at the peak of the season?
> Maybe the canola pollen is a good addition to your patty mix too.


Yes I have considered that for sure. Just need to do it lol! 
Canola pollen is very high in nutritional value. I would like to take some of that mid summer nourishment and express it in my spring feed. 
The only issue I see is that most all the canola pollen is treated with fungicide, as a rule. I dont know if it is an issue or not...
We have a facility near by to irradiate the pollen so other than virus the pest issue would be eliminated. 
But, irradiated pollen might also be killing off some of that good microbial populations that would benefit the bees... 

After all the chips fall, I think my thoughts would side on the side of trapping my own pollen needed, irradiating it and supplying it in my spring bee feed. Even though fungicide may be present and irradiation may have killed off any beneficial bacteria, the purpose of my spring time feeding program is to stimulate the hives into brooding and I will let nature do the rest.

It just takes a lot of work to collect pollen


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## Ian

Ben Little said:


> Ian, regarding the patties that you had that weren't consumed fast enough VS the ones you made, was there any difference in the production/health of the hive ?
> ...
> I get confused when I see all of the dry pollen sub and beekeepers doing all kinds of different things with it because it makes it better.


I hear you Ben. I feel exactly the same way as you, and you and I are exactly at the same stage of "thinking nutritionally" for our bees. The thing is we have a lot of pollen at our disposal and supplemental feeding has always been a sidebar issue for us. 

The approach I am taking with supplemental feeding is I'm targeting certain times of the year where pollen is short and growth is strong at times which is critical to the overall health of the hive. Pretty basic stuff right? I'm not going to have patties on year round, nor am I going to spend huge amounts of money on the issue. We have tones of free stuff hanging on trees and growing in fields here. I'm talking about targeting specific times though the year to ensure an adequate diet is being met. 

One area is early spring when I want the bees to brood. Protein protein protein. Another area is mid spring after the dandelion when the hives steam along into a two or three week dearth which forces them to dig into their reserves. 
The other area I have never considered and I am going to start targeting is late summer early fall. I believe there is a variability in the quality of pollen collected and running short or feeding off nutritionally poor pollen translates directly into the type of hive that is sent into winter. My proof is the last two or three years of winter loss stats collected from the Canadian prairies. :lookout: We as beekeepers know when those tough falls were...and they translate directly into losses the following spring. Heck, just look at the season preceding CCD down south... dare I say Ontario? k:

Sounds like pretty basic stuff right? :scratch: I don't dig into my nest enough to be able to tell what is exactly happening. I do, but really I don't. Most of everything is done either by the calender or by reacting to problems. Trying to bring a proactive strategy into my operation will translate directly into healthier hives. 

Ben from what I read of your posts, you and I along with countless other emails I get, are exactly on the same page. The common theme between all of us is that we all are banging our heads to become more pro active with our colony management.


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## Haraga

Ian, I held back pollen this past season with the intention of feeding it this spring. I don't have a good recipe for that. Do you have any ideas for me?


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## Allen Martens

Ian, I imagine you have looked at Randy Oliver's comparison test.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/a-comparative-test-of-the-pollen-sub/

Confirms things that I have noticed anecdotally. The bees didn't seem very interested in Feed Bee when I tried it. Bees seem to do better on UltraBee than Bee Pro and they seem to be more attracted to UltraBee. Last summer I fed only UltraBee during the June bearth, and mostly BeePro during the Junes before that. We just mix it up in a wheelbarrow with syrup and shovel it on. Wow did they hit July with a load of brood and then they swarmed. Going to need to fine tune the swarm management some if they always build through the June dearth that way, but it didn't seem to hurt honey production much.

I think in my area the quality of the sub is not too important in spring as their is a lot of good quality natural pollen available as well. The whole fall window I am totally clueless about. Lots of conflicting information and research in seems. I think the quality is much more important as these bees need to survive winter and raise next year's bees. I think feed sub in fall like the 2012 fall when there was a complete pollen dearth very early would greatly improve winter survival.


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## JodieToadie

Allen' post was what i was getting to but he beat me to the punch. Ian, basically I was wondering why you settled on the OBA formula (Similar to Randy Oliver's homebrew).
There appear to be better options out there. As for chinese pollen well, it is what it is and the results are still good. The stuff must be irradiated before use. 
Ultrabee and Mann Lake Bulk seem to have equal or better results to natural pollen in Randy's test. I guess the question is: Why settle for the fifth best formula?


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## Ian

Haraga I will get back to you on a good patty recipe with added pollen my neighbour uses soon as he responds email.

Jodie, I posted that recipe just to start the conversation on supplements. But I'm going to try it. 

As for better options, your probably right. But according to who? Randy? Medhat? Allen Martens? Each will tell you different yet each has a good handle on what's going on. 
Your opinion is this recipe is 5Th best, others tell me it performs better than rest... I used beepro last year in patties because they would not touch the Ultrabee patty... But brought the Ultrabee in 2:1 in dry form. If anyone knows what is going on inside that bee brain then hats off to them. The main point is protein protien protein which ever way we can get them to ingest it.


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## Haraga

Thanks Ian.


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## grozzie2

Allen Martens said:


> Last summer I fed only UltraBee during the June bearth, and mostly BeePro during the Junes before that. We just mix it up in a wheelbarrow with syrup and shovel it on. Wow did they hit July with a load of brood and then they swarmed.





Ian said:


> I used beepro last year in patties because they would not touch the Ultrabee patty...


And this just leads us farther down the road labeled 'analysis paralysis'.


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## JSL

Grozzie, that made me chuckle too.

Perhaps it is more patty consistency (Ian vs Allen mixing) and timing than the base ingredients?


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## JodieToadie

grozzie2 said:


> And this just leads us farther down the road labeled 'analysis paralysis'.


It is a dichotomy...
Well technically not. We have yet to hear from anyone who has had a negative or contradicting view on patties that contain pollen. (Other than cost.) 
If winter losses are any indication, I would not take advice from the OBA. (Cheap shot but 58% in 2014?)
As for who is right, anyone who makes a crop and pays the bills.


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## Ian

JodieToadie said:


> If winter losses are any indication, I would not take advice from the OBA. (Cheap shot but 58% in 2014?)


Ha ha ha ha , touché


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian said:


> The main point is protein protien protein which ever way we can get them to ingest it.


Yikes....


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## Markt

RAK said:


> Substituting dry sugar for sugar syrup is a bad idea. I would keep the dry sugar in but add HFCS instead of water. Keeps patty soft for a longer period of time.


What's the problem with using sugar syrup so long as the volumes are adjusted correctly?

I saw the results of the OBA tech transfer study and the gap between that recipe and global and the third one (Mann Lake I think) was significant. I'll see if I can find the document


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## Allen Martens

Ian said:


> . But according to who? Randy? Medhat? Allen Martens? Each will tell you different yet each has a good handle on what's going on.


I choose to believe research that supports my current position. :lpf:


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## Ian

Haraga said:


> Ian, I held back pollen this past season with the intention of feeding it this spring. I don't have a good recipe for that. Do you have any ideas for me?


Haraga, here is a recipe that I'm considering and you should try out;

"Hi Ian here is Liz's recipe that I was using.

10 lbs pollen
20 lbs BEE PRO
20lbs Brewers Yeast
3/4 cup Lemon Juice
1 TBSP Lactobacillus (Probiotic Powder)
Mixed with approximately 38 lbs sugar
2.5 gallons of HOT water (adjust for consistency)
Makes about 110 lbs of patties
NOTE: I found this recipe to be a little on the runny side and needed 
to use wax paper on each side of the patty. If not using paper on each 
side things get MESSY!

Weights from my kitchen scale: 1 gallon BEE PRO= 5lbs
1 gallon 
brewers yeast= 4.5 lbs
1 gallon of 
pollen= 5 lbs
Strong hives were getting 4lbs at a time."


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## Haraga

I'll give it a try. Thanks Ian.


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## Ian

Haraga said:


> I'll give it a try. Thanks Ian.


Let me nkow how it works out. I have been stubborn on bringing in Chinese pollen into my patty mix. Probably will get my guys around to collect my own this summer and irradiate it at the facility in Pinawa. He has had excellent consumption of these patties.


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## apis maximus

Ian said:


> 1 TBSP Lactobacillus (Probiotic Powder)
> 2.5 gallons of HOT water (adjust for consistency)


Might want to reconsider this. What is the temperature you consider when you say HOT water?

Those Lactobacilli, unless specifically designated as termophile, would get inactivated very quick. As far as I know, the Lactobacilli commonly used as probiotics are not termophiles, so in your recipe they might as well be left out. Some of these Lactobacilli classify as mesophile, which would mean they would thrive at 20C-45C (68F-113F), and that in my thinking would call for maybe warm, lukewarm water, not HOT.

I mean it might make you feel good that you added them...but that will be the extent of it if you add HOT water. But if hot water makes the concotion mix better, then you might consider adding the probiotics at the end so that the mixture had some time to cool.

Just my 2c.


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## Ian

or just leave the probiotics out


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## davidsbees

My protein patty run 20+ protein not hard to get them to eat it. this pic is a 1 lb patty after 1 week on the top super. Took the picture this afternoon







"Yikes"????


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## Keith Jarrett

Mbeck said:


> Keith,
> Will you post your current sub recipe, nutition profile, mill specs and ingredient source list ?
> 
> Would Citric acid alone would give more consitant ph control?


MBeck, to your Citric question, yes...... to your other question.


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## JRG13

LOL, someone needs to search for Chef Isaac.


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## Mbeck

Keith Jarrett said:


> MBeck, to your Citric question, yes...... to your other question.


I'll check my PM's


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## Ben Little

Ian have you seen any good feedback on the Patties that the Tech Transfer Program with the OBA made ? I was sent a graph on the increase of brood but no real hard data, they are being sold by Dancing Bee.


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## Ian

One trial says one thing, another trial says another. I think the best thing is to test different products out in our own apiary to determine the best fit. Take Allen's experience with feeding Ultra bee patties and mine. Why the difference? One might be his recipe, as my patties were bought pre made.


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## Ben Little

I just found an article from Manitoba about the Pollen Sub and the recipe for it, page 7-11. I'm sure you may have already read it though  
http://manitobabee.org/hive/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/MBA-Spring-2014v3.pdf


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## zhiv9

Ben Little said:


> Ian have you seen any good feedback on the Patties that the Tech Transfer Program with the OBA made ? I was sent a graph on the increase of brood but no real hard data, they are being sold by Dancing Bee.
> View attachment 15422


From the OBJ article on the 2013 test results:

"The results from the 2013 trial showed a significant difference
between the products used for protein supplementation. The
improvement on the population of honey bees and brood upon
return from pollination was significant with the use of the
homemade substitute compared to Global Patties and Bee Pro.
It also showed that there was no improvement on bee or brood
populations compared to the control (zero pounds) with the
use of Global Patties or Bee-Pro"

One thing to keep in mind is that the OTT study didn't involve spring build up but instead supplementation and evaluation of colonies sent to blueberries. It could very well be that one nutritional profile is better for spring build-up another for pollination and still another for fall supplementation.


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## JSL

Ben,

Thanks for the link to the article! I read it and the think the person writing it has a limited understanding of nutrition. Sorry to be blunt, but it just talks about protein levels and then is conflicting. It starts out stating that protein levels below 21% are considered poor and that blueberries are too low. Okay, fine, but then their formulation is at 11.2% protein. There is so much more to a diet than protein levels. A 15% protein diet can match or even exceed a 21% protein diet if there are other limiting factors and there usually are. Why bother publishing protein levels when there is no indication that has anything to do with their claim? It just happens to be something they measured along the way... Okay, I will step down now.


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## jean-marc

My recipe is:
20 L water
60 kg of the finest irradiated Chinese bee pollen
60 kg granulated sugar
10 kg soya flour just to dry the mix up.

In my experience anything less than this can damage bees. Nature can be stingy here as far as bees go on account of all the rain. If we use commercially available patties with up to 15% pollen we do not get good results. The problems come when we start with 10 frames of bees and end up with 4-5 frames of bees after feeding those patties. We have a tendency to start a bit early. Bees need pollen in those situations not soya, not brewers yeast. We have damaged our bees on more than one occasion with wrong patties. At times too with poor foraging weather and too high levels of soya or brewers yeast we constipate the bees and inflict big damage. We have done this on more than one occasion. Now we start a little bit later and we do not push the bees as hard, i.e. we give smaller patties to start. We also get very good results by placing irradiated pollen in the empty cells next to the cluster. We splash Caspian solution on top to wet it. In a day or two the pollen has been processed by the bees and is stored in the cells. They use it at their leisure. THey brood up following some cues they get from nature. Some colonies start using it immediately others wait 10 days 2 weeks. Just depends... bees being bees and all.

Jean-Marc


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## apis maximus

jean-marc said:


> ... We also get very good results by placing irradiated pollen in the empty cells next to the cluster. We splash Caspian solution on top to wet it. In a day or two the pollen has been processed by the bees and is stored in the cells. They use it at their leisure.


jean-marc,

Could you please elaborate a bit on the part saying: "*In a day or two the pollen has been processed by the bees and is stored in the cells*"

I understand the placing of irradiated pollen in the cells, next to the brood...also, I understand the wetting of the pollen with the Caspian solution. 

But from this point on...how do your bees "process" the pollen ? Are they moving it to store it again? In the same cells they initially found it or in other cells of their choosing?

I might be missing something...


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## Keith Jarrett

Joe's post #66 well said. My post #50 is the same point.


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## Ian

JSL said:


> Okay, I will step down now.


Our cattle rations boost protein levels to specific groups of stock using distiller grains. The other half of our equation is energy. Pound the protein balanced with the energy. 

Simply put. I see that same balance in bee feed, just I have never seen a cow ignore food placed in frount of them like bees will! Lol


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## Ian

Jean-Marc, what is your cost per pound of prepared feed? And how many pounds do you feed per season ?


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## JSL

Ian,

Cows are a little different in the sense that you are feeding roughage to a ruminant. Roughage is low in protein content. Just guessing here, but a pregnant dry cow needs about 8% protein, a lactating cow with calf needs about 50% more energy and about double the protein. When energy and protein demands go up, other nutrients increase proportionally, for the most part. Lactation does place specific demands on the animal.


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## Ian

We actually bulk up our cow rations to slow down digestion. Our stock ration gets protein supplement along side an energy boost.
I'm thinking along the lines of feeding the bees patties while supplementing with syrup.


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## davidsbees

A protein supplement of 20% balanced protein is preferred over a supplement of say 14% of balanced protein granted not all supplements are not balanced, I would prefer the higher protein.


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## jean-marc

Apis Maximus:

The bees work the pollen and store it in the cells as if they had collected it themselves. It looks the same even though it was placed in the cells by human hands. It is kinda cool.

Ian:

Seeing as how I import the pollen myself I will not divulge my cost. I did feed approximately 30 tonnes last year of patties. I more or less started with 3200. Sold 3000 units and finished off with 4500 going into winter. It would not be possible without the chinese bee pollen. Sent a man out today to collect bees for nosema. By 2 p.m. he had looked at 200 hives. 2 were confirmed dead and 2 more were going to die. The rest were looking good. By the time we start dividing them in April our losses will mount to 10-12% due to queen problems.

Jean-Marc


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## JSL

jean-marc said:


> The bees work the pollen and store it in the cells as if they had collected it themselves. It looks the same even though it was placed in the cells by human hands. It is kinda cool.


Jean-Marc, thanks for sharing! What more could you ask for? It is always amazing how beekeepers figure out so many different ways to accomplish a similar task. When I have the opportunity to visit other operations I enjoy talking shop. Many beekeepers will say, "oh, you probably don't want to hear about this as my way is too crude", but it is those little details that may just be the piece you need in your system. At the end of the day all that really matters is how it works in your operation...


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## JSL

Jean-Marc,

Do you have any nutritional specs on the pollen you import that you would be willing to share? I am always interested in the numbers behind the formula... Just roughing out your formula and assuming a 17% protein level in the pollen and 48% protein level in the soy I come up with the following numbers for your patties.

13.3% moisture
40% sugar (probably significantly higher due to sugar in natural pollen)
9.97% protein
36.7% other - balance of soy and pollen ingredients, not protein


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## Ian

Interesting perspective Jean Marc.
Roughly 12 tonnes of pollen fed into your hives, that's impressive. 
You and I beekeep in different conditions. You will have an aggressive spring feeding program in place, do you also supplement throughout the rest of the year? 

I appreciate your feedback!


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## deknow

I remember Allen Dick posting a few years ago on bee-l. He was talking about feeding pollen sub/sup while doing pollination _specifically_ to discourage pollen foraging where pesticides are present.

I wonder how large a part (if any) this can play in looking at the benefit of suppliments.

I also wonder if it is possible to over idealize a diet. On paper, a body builder (and their diet) might seem like an ideal human worker (if one were an alien). Maybe even being hungry for protean (maybe periodically) triggers desirable behaviors.


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## grozzie2

deknow said:


> I remember Allen Dick posting a few years ago on bee-l. He was talking about feeding pollen sub/sup while doing pollination _specifically_ to discourage pollen foraging where pesticides are present.


What am I missing here. If one feeds pollen / sub while on a pollination gig, to discourage the foragers from going after the outside pollen, isn't that kind of defeating the purpose of putting bees on the crop in the first place ? If I was the farmer paying for pollination, wouldn't be very impressed if the beekeeper was going to some effort to keep the bees off the crop I'm paying to have pollinated.


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## deknow

I think the in most cases foragong for nectar provides the pollination. Pollen foraging involves the bees collecting pollen. The whole reason plants put out so much energy in nectar is to get the pollination done.


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## Ian

I got an email from a beekeeper not wanting to post to this topic fearing the question would look foolish. 
Nobody here would convey that sort of tone, eh? 

For guys looking into providing supplements much of all the conflicting trials and antidotal opinions makes choosing a feed or recipe overwhelming. I think the problem is a lot of the variance in performance is due to management styles and outside environmental condition differences. 

My advice, try out a few, pick the best.


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## Beregondo

'I do everything... the bees still die' 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7925619.stm

"Keith feeds heavily in the fall and by January has 2 boxes so full of bees that he shakes them into boxes for
other beekeepers so that they can meet their almond commitments."
http://apisenterprises.com/traynor/MARCH 14, 2012 Beekeeper Newsletter-1.pdf

I think I'll take my pollen supplement advice from those who have a history of success with pollen supplements.


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## davidsbees

Last year we started feeding in May, first lack of forage second, trying to dilute the toxic soup the bees are exposed to daily in the SJ Valley.


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## davidsbees

It's nice to see some of the first real pollen coming in. But still have to supplement in some areas.


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## zhiv9

Ian said:


> I think the problem is a lot of the variance in performance is due to management styles and outside environmental condition differences.
> My advice, try out a few, pick the best.


This makes a lot of sense. We aren't all trying to achieve the same goals. What works as a supplement and prevents malnutrition during blueberry pollination may not be the best option for building up bees in a pollen desert for almond pollination in Californina or supporting spring build-up in Ontario or Western Canada.


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## chillardbee

jean-marc said:


> My recipe is:
> 20 L water
> 60 kg of the finest irradiated Chinese bee pollen
> 60 kg granulated sugar
> 10 kg soya flour just to dry the mix up.
> 
> In my experience anything less than this can damage bees. Nature can be stingy here as far as bees go on account of all the rain. If we use commercially available patties with up to 15% pollen we do not get good results. The problems come when we start with 10 frames of bees and end up with 4-5 frames of bees after feeding those patties. We have a tendency to start a bit early. Bees need pollen in those situations not soya, not brewers yeast. We have damaged our bees on more than one occasion with wrong patties. At times too with poor foraging weather and too high levels of soya or brewers yeast we constipate the bees and inflict big damage. We have done this on more than one occasion. Now we start a little bit later and we do not push the bees as hard, i.e. we give smaller patties to start. We also get very good results by placing irradiated pollen in the empty cells next to the cluster. We splash Caspian solution on top to wet it. In a day or two the pollen has been processed by the bees and is stored in the cells. They use it at their leisure. THey brood up following some cues they get from nature. Some colonies start using it immediately others wait 10 days 2 weeks. Just depends... bees being bees and all.
> 
> Jean-Marc


I thought that was top secret recipe Jean-Marc, HA HA, JK.

I learnt a lot in the years that I worked for you JM and the pollen in the cells was one of the coolest and most beneficial things I learnt apart from the many other things. I've been doing that ever since.


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## Ian

....deleted....


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## chillardbee

I think that's because everyone tries to do whats right by their bees and with respect to their location. Jean-marcs recipe works for him and mine (not much different then Jean-marcs recipe) works for me. Times and reasons for feed are different too like for spring build up or supplimenting while in pollination. a lot of factors at play on how beeks approach supplemental feeding.


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## JSL

Ian,

IMO, it comes down to the entire system or operation. Sure, nutrition is important. Sure, genetics are important. Environment is certainly important. But, all of this has to mesh and it is up to the beekeeper to make that happen in a timely manner!


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## JSL

Ian said:


> I got an email from a beekeeper not wanting to post to this topic fearing the question would look foolish.
> Nobody here would convey that sort of tone, eh?


That is really too bad. There is so much to be gained from discussions... There are some strong opinions shared here, but keeping them civil is always best. After I see something I wrote, I question whether I should have written it. It can be hard to take things back.


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## jean-marc

Ian: 

We feed year round. The only time we are not feeding is when bees are in southern Alberta on canola pollination. That is where we get pretty much all our honey. Our time is spent feeding, splitting bees and selling increases, moving bees. Without the pollen we could not split as aggressively. Nature can be generous in this area if it is not raining (ha ha ha) until mid may when dandelions end. Up to that point plenty of pollen assuming no rain. After that best for bees to go on a tour of the prairies. Usually mother Nature is pretty generous in those areas both in pollen and nectar.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

I might bug you for an order of pollen to compare for myself 

Ever think about trapping your own ?


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## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> There is so much to be gained from discussions... There are some strong opinions shared here, but keeping them civil is always best. .


Yeah keeping it civil sometimes is really hard when you want to let the truth fly, and then Sheri shows up with a Machete and all you see is deleted threads everywhere .lol
Shaking bulk bees starting next week, a few for Randy Oliver's freinds.
Me, I'm pretty thick skinned, I don't take things personal, the look of my bees are the judge & jury for me if I'm on the right track.


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## jean-marc

Ian

I thought about trapping pollen. I made some traps similar to the ones Lloyd Spear sells. They were so expensive to make and took so long that by the time I was finished I was sick of them and sold them.  

If I were to trap again, I would sell all of it bulk to Danny Paradis. I was told by a second party that the going rate this year is $7.00/lb for Canadian bee pollen, producer price. I would take some of my earnings and buy the Chinese stuff. If you buy it by the container load it is 2-3 times cheaper than the Canadian stuff.

From the perspective of the bees the question becomes who uses more fungicides, pesticides etc. Canada or China? 

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

jean-marc said:


> From the perspective of the bees the question becomes who uses more fungicides, pesticides etc. Canada or China?
> 
> Jean-Marc



good point, that stuff, this stuff... all gets sprayed...

$10 per lbs out here...


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## Ian

Joe, you mentioned a while back in another conversation about bees liking corn flour. Any advantage in adding corn to the patties increase attractiveness?


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## Keith Jarrett

jean-marc;1206228 I would sell all of it bulk to Danny Paradis. [/QUOTE said:


> Any relation to Mike Parady (sp) ?


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## jean-marc

Yup his younger brudda. I got the correct spelling  but it sounds exactly like you spelled it Keith.


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## JSL

Ian said:


> Joe, you mentioned a while back in another conversation about bees liking corn flour. Any advantage in adding corn to the patties increase attractiveness?


Ian, yes I see good consumption in patties with corn. My assumption is that the bee supply companies have recognized this too. Look at the coloration of the dry sub and patties. Those that are yellowish/orange most likely have some corn in them and it is probably corn gluten. Keep in mind that when you get into the isolates like soy isolate or corn gluten, you get high protein, but in order to do that, other nutrients are removed. It is important to realize that and correct for the missing nutrients.


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## davidsbees

In the protein supplement we make we use 5 protein sources to get as close to being balanced as possible. Then add in what is lacking; amino acids,vitamins and minerals. I tested some of protein subs out there and were so short of a few amino acids that the bees ( on paper ) could only use less than 48% of the available protein. I've tried all the subs out there that's why I decieded to make my own. I don't use pollen to many unknowns.


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## Keith Jarrett

jean-marc said:


> Yup his younger brudda. I got the correct spelling  but it sounds exactly like you spelled it Keith.


How is the pollen sub he is using?


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## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> Those that are yellowish/orange most likely have some corn in them and it is probably corn gluten. .


corn gluten is really cheap ($$).


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## Ian

David would you share your latest patty recipe?


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## davidsbees

Corn gluten is a good protein source but the bees can't use it in its raw form. The expense comes in getting the proper particle size then adding missing amino acids to proper level.


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## Ian

JSL said:


> Keep in mind that when you get into the isolates like soy isolate or corn gluten, you get high protein, but in order to do that, other nutrients are removed. It is important to realize that and correct for the missing nutrients.


What are the nutrients that are missing?
Does anyone have a link to soy, Brewers yeast, corn flour, dried egg nutrient analysis?


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## Ian

davidsbees said:


> Corn gluten is a good protein source but the bees can't use it in its raw form. The expense comes in getting the proper particle size .


Is that just a matter of polverising the material? I think it was 10 years ago, the bees rolled half the bag out. Wonder if that was corn gluten in its raw form?


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## davidsbees

Sure toasted soy flour,Brewers yeast, corn gluten, pea flour, egg and soy protein isolate plus vitamins and minerals. So 200 lbs dry ingredients 30 gallons syrup 6 gallons various oils, 9 oz eo,s ,6 pounds citric acid. mix well!


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## Ian

Good deal Thx man!


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## Ian

David, if I could dig into your train of thought? What are you targeting by using these products; toasted soy flour, brewers yeast, corn gluten, pea flour, egg and soy protein isolate. I understand your looking to provide an AA balance in your feed, what is it about each product that targets those AA?


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## davidsbees

Ian,
Each ingredient is high in some aa and low in others so you have to mix it up so your not to high in one, low in another. Then the one you are low you can supplement. AA come in two forms L & D you need to use the L form. Feeding a lite syrup in addition to protein will make a big difference.


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## Ian

Did you have help from a nutritionist to formulate your supplement or have you brought all this together on your own?


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## davidsbees

I spent years and lots of money formulating and testing. Then I met a nutritionist, told him what I've been doing his response was " that is what I do all day every day". So he worked out the things I could not.


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## Ian

For anyone interested, here is some information I am piecing together notes to make sense of some of what is being said, 


Protein	48% 48% 67% 80%
Brewers Yeast -	Soymeal expeller - Corn Gluten meal -	Dried Egg 
3.0	Threonine	4.4, 3.0	, 3.3, 4.4,
4.0	Valine	4.6, 4.5	, 4.5, 7.5,
1.5	Methionine	1.5, *1.4	*, 2.4, 3.9,
4.5	Leucine	6.2	, 7.7 , 15.9	, 8.7,
4.0	Iso-Leucine	4.6, 4.6, 4.0, 6.0,
2.5	Phenylalanime	3.6, 5.1	, 6.0	, 6.2,
3.0	Lysine	6.3, 6.3, *1.7,* 6.2,
1.5	Histidine	2.0, 2.7, 2.0, 2.4,
3.0	Arginine	4.4, 7.5	, 3.0, 5.8,
1.0	Tryptophan	1.1,  1.4, * 0.5*, 1.5,

I know this chart translates poorly to read, but the values all line up, I have made up an excell spread sheet to help me understand why these different products are being used in bee feed supplements. If you see any errors or obvious oversight, please let me know. 


Brewers yeast 
-good amino acid balance and contains high amounts of lysine, tryptophane, threonine and isoleucine
-good source for Phosphorus and B complex vit, 
-spoils quickly

Soymeal
-good amino acid balance and contains high amounts of lysine, tryptophane, threonine and isoleucine
-low in methionine
- poor source of B vitamins and lack of vitamin B
-almost no phosphorus is avaliable
-processing possibly degrades Lysine 

Corn gluten
-poorly balanced feed source, extremely low in Lysine and Tryptophan
-good source for Methionine
-extremely high in Leucine
High energy

Dried whole eggs appear to be extremely nutritious as long as my math is correct. Some negatives being higher cost and spoils quickly

It makes sense to me now why beekeepers are using both Brewers Yeast, Soy and egg supplements


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## grozzie2

Ian said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> Protein	48%	          48%	                  67%	          80%
> Brewers Yeast  - Soymeal expeller-  Corn Gluten meal -Dried Egg
> 3.0	Threonine	4.4,		3.0,		3.3,		4.4,
> 4.0	Valine		4.6,		4.5,		4.5,		7.5,
> 1.5	Methionine	1.5,		[B]1.4[/B],		2.4,		3.9,
> 4.5	Leucine		6.2,		7.7,		15.9,		8.7,
> 4.0	Iso-Leucine	4.6,		4.6,		4.0,		6.0,
> 2.5	Phenylalanime	3.6,		5.1,		6.0,		6.2,
> 3.0	Lysine		6.3,		6.3,		[B]1.7[/B],		6.2,
> 1.5	Histidine	2.0,		2.7,		2.0,		2.4,
> 3.0	Arginine	4.4,		7.5,		3.0,		5.8,
> 1.0	Tryptophan	1.1,		1.4,		[B]0.5[/B],		1.5,
> 
> I know this chart translates poorly to read


Reads a bit better now


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## Mbeck

I think maybe low in tryptophan is kinda of sort of a good thing.

Explained here in #2

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/pollen-supplement-formula/

And in 2.5 here

http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/caparticle10.html

Keith explains it better but I couldn't find the thread and he enjoys explaining the 10 not 9 ammino acid thing so much, maybe he'll jump in.
Keith would you explain how 10 of the 18 work?

Might as well start at the begining. 

http://194.47.52.113/janlars/partnerskapalnarp/ekonf/20130516/deGroot1953.pdf


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## pppswing

you forgot the best one : frozen pollen !


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## Ian

How do I convert those nutritional values into figures relevant to the deGroot values? 
I pulled my nutritional values off our cattle feed analysis workbook


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## Mbeck

This is way above my pay grade but I'll try to explain with a disclaimer

I think....

Start with Degroots ratio chart found here

http://www.honeybee.com.au/Library/pollen/nutrition.html

Assuming that tryptophan is 1% the other amino acid need to be at or above recommended % for the protien to be digestible to bees. That is why tryptophan is described as limiting.

Example: if tryptophan is at 3% Lysine needs to be 9% or 3x the limiting amino acid.

If just one amino acid is below required threshold you are paying for protien and the bees only get the benifit of a reduced % of it.


Keith,
How'd I do? I did my part now you explain the other 8!


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## Ian

Ah I see. 
Assuming my feed values are correct, looking at Brewers yeast, the Lysine needs to be 3.3.


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## Ian

Okay so I think I understand what you mean by a low Tryptophan as being possibly being better.
As long as I am understanding correctly, using the feed values provided to me, that puts the soybean expeller way out of AA balance, Brewers yeast good, egg good, and also shows the corn gluten as being balanced. 
Right ?


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## Keith Jarrett

jean-marc said:


> Yup his younger brudda. I got the correct spelling  but it sounds exactly like you spelled it Keith.


Jean-marc, you will have to ask them boys how there sub turn out last year as they used Nutra Bee, and how it compared to others.


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## jean-marc

Ok Keith shall do. More importantly did you ask them? What did they say?

Jean-Marc


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## davidsbees

Tryptophan is used as the base in the ratio and any of the amino acids that fall below that ratio is the limiting amino acid, to say it simply. Randy Oliver sent me a spread sheet a while back that you plug in the numbers and get ratios.


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## Ian

davidsbees said:


> Ian,
> AA come in two forms L & D you need to use the L form.


David, what does L and D stand for?


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## JRG13

L and D refers to the two isomers of the amino acids.... Put your hands together palm to palm, that's the basically the same principle of L & D forms, mirror images of the same protein structure/amino acid. I don't recall exactly, but I believe all forms of life use only the L configuration.


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## Ian

JRG13 said:


> I don't recall exactly, but I believe all forms of life use only the L configuration.


Thx JRG13
I would assume feed analysis would use the L configuration in representing feed values.?


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## JRG13

Depends on the analysis Ian.... the D configuration has the same input values if you're breaking down the amino acids, but in pure terms of utilization and assimilation aspects, only L-amino acids are used to build proteins.


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## pppswing

L is levogyre (turn left)
D is dextrogyre (turn right)
D is useless for protein assimilation.

Brewer yeast is the best supplement,
as well as salix caprea pollen and non GMO canola pollen.

Many experiments have been made, I don't have the ref.


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## Ian

Dried Milk is a good source of tryptophan, roughly 1.5% .


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## Keith Jarrett

Casen. (sp)


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## jean-marc

Casein my thinks

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

Wow that search lead me to a very intense body building forum. Those guys have supplements figured out!

Tryptophan value for Casein is 6. 
Casein and Whey is what's going on in the world of mussels


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## RAK

Casein was used by Mykola Haydak found in ABJ 1957. Btw one can purchase feed grade Tryptophan.

http://www.lysine.com/pdf/products/l-tryptophan/ajinomoto_heartland_l-tryptophan_pds.pdf


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## jean-marc

Body builders are big on casein. It is a powerful carcinogen. White coat guys like to use it to induce cancers in their lab animals and we human are big on drinking/eating it. Isch.

Jean-Marc


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## Cristian

Yep , is time for pattie here so I want to have some feedback about a pattie recipie and how to use it . I have found a recipie that is like this : 12% sugar , 52% ( 67% ) syrup , 20% ( 50% ) soy flour , 15% ( 40% ) yeast and some pollent to make the pattie more attractive . Have somebody tried something like that ? . The other thing is when you considerate to to start feeding patties and how much time after the pollen is coming from outside you keep going ? . The pattie should have 1 pound and I am planing like 10 patties for each hive and some syrup , are those enough ? the hives are the best but aren't the worst , acceptable . I aspect to have a flyght for the bees to empty their stomach around 15 Feb or so and the first big flow should be around 15-20 April . Is that enough time to feed them properly to be in good shape for the flow . How are yours methods to keep the bees in good shape ( big populations ) for the flow . I am usind double deeps box and now i have around 5 frames of bees in the upper box and down are all the frames . How you would do to have more bees in the boxes ? 
Thank's , I will put some pics tomorow .


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## BernhardHeuvel

Do you find the bees shredding the patties and throwing it out of the hive?

Never tried this before and the use of patties is very unusual in Germany. Wanted to see how it works and supplied some hives with it. Patties are densely covered with bees, they seem to consume it. But also you find pieces of the patties in front of the hives. At least some of it gets shredded. Is this normal?


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## beepro

Yes, it a normal for the bees to not eat the entire patty completely. So some
bits and pieces will get dry and bee thrown out of the hive.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Ok, thanks. Now I'm curious how the bees react to it and how this differs to the control group. I have to say, that there is plenty of natural pollen here, at least in Springtime. But Spring weather is very variable, so pollen foraging is limited by the weather.


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## Ian

They will be preferring that natural stuff for sure, and from what your saying, taking that patty out as trash. 
You will see response from your efforts during periods of low pollen flows. If the free stuff is there, use it, if weather slips so the free stuff can't be accessed, buy a rain coat and get those patties out


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