# Does anyone use this method of queen rearing?



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

My idea next spring is to skip grafting and queen-finding altogether--I'd cut out a strip (or several) of egg-filled comb about 1" wide from my chosen hive and face the eggs or very young larva downward and tack or rubberband the comb to a bar which I'd insert onto a frame similar to every $75+ system out there. Then every cell on the strip of comb would be 'downward facing' and the bees could use whatever discretion they have to pick which eggs to turn into queens.

Similar to the OTS method where you just cut the bottom 1/3rd of existing cell walls to the midrib, as described by Mel Disselkoen (http://www.mdasplitter.com/), except that I don't need the starter colony feeding an entire frame of brood.

(HHHHH = horizontal comb)
(V = queen cell)

=I=====================I=
. I HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I
. IVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVI
. I HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I
. IVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVI
. I=====================I

Thoughts?

Thanks!


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Tara said:


> similar to every $75+ system out there.


We use the $8.00 method....... 100 JZBZ plastic push-in cups cost about $8.00. Graft to cups, place 10 cups to a bar and 2 bars to a frame (easily constructed for about $2.00). Place this frame in a queenless 5 frame nuc with a feeder...End up with between 15 and 20 cells everytime. Put the cells in JZBZ hanger type cell protectors and use them for splits and re-queens. Thats our method now that we're winding down, in the spring and summer we use a full sized (8frame) queenless cell builder and draw up to 45 cells at a time.


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## rharbison (Sep 13, 2010)

Sounds very similar to the Hopkins Method. Check out this link.

http://www.ohiohomestead.com/ohioqueenbees/Hopkins Method.htm


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

You can learn to graft in 15 minutes. You may not have a high success rate at first but you will improve with age! Take out a frame of young larva and practice! It won't hurt your hive and you have thousands of subjects to choose from. BTW, I think you'll find that with your proposed method, if you place a strip of eggs the bees will eat the eggs. If you place larva, you need to thin them out so you have 3-4 empty spaces between cells. The other more important aspects like having an overflowing queenless cell starter of young bees, and proper feed, honey and pollen, plus syrup or patties, are not going to be any different.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

fish_stix said:


> but you will improve with age!


That's pretty optomistic as I seem to be dis-improving with age. 

I use one of those $80 systems that does not require grafting, doesn't need steady hands, and compensates for poor eyesight. I've switched from trying to raise queens in a queenless colony to a using a queen-right colony.

And I thought it couldn't be done.

There are dozens of queen rearing systems, all with advantages and disadvantages, all which appeal and repulse our personal opinions. More power to those who try new things!

Grant
Jackson, MO
http://maxhoney.homestead.com


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Thanks all for your advice so far! I may eventually learn to graph, but I really see no reason to if the bees will build queen cells right on the combs the eggs are already in! Plus, I can't really see myself grafting out in the field, but I can see cutting out a strip of comb and tacking it to a bar when I'm out there.

Oldtimer--glad to see someone's already paved the way! When you say you believe it makes a better queen, do you think its because the larvae aren't handled, aren't grown in an artificial cell, or because the bees 'choose' a better larva when given a choice? If I didn't kill every couple cells, would the bees attempt to raise EVERY larva to be a queen? Using this method, do you use young larva, or eggs? Have you experienced what fish stix mentioned, with bees removing eggs? About how many cells per frame in a well-stocked starter nuc do you get?

I'd love to see a pic of your 'special combs' if you get a chance to post!

Thanks!


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Thanks! I did see your picture before, but I guess I didn't read closely enough on your method. 

One question: "I can say that when larvae are grafted, they are deprived of food for a short time because the first thing the bees do when they are placed in the cell raising hive is clean them, and they can stay this way for a while before the bees start feeding them."

The first thing the bees do is clean the cells? The larva? What, do the bees clean up the royal jelly with the larva, or are they just so busy cleaning they neglect the larva?

Thanks for your reply and the pic!


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

BTW, thanks for the links Michael!

Also, thanks for your site. Whenever I wonder "Is there an easier way to do this?" I go check your site. Unfortunately I don't check it as often as I should...

I think the closest method to what I'll try is Alley's. All up until attaching the strip of cells to the comb... I'll just use a bar and thumbtack or rubberband it on, so I can get 3 rows on a frame.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

The easiest method I have found for raising queens is to remove the laying queen. The bees will start several emergency cells. (I have seen 20 emergency cells started.) Either cut out individual queen cells to use, or take any frame with cell and put that frame in any nuc/hive that needs a queen. For me, moving frames with queen cells is the simplest and least likely to damage cells. Getting 4 or 5 frames with queen cells is common for me.

I guess it all depends on how many queens you are wanting to raise.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshopkins1886.htm

This is basically the Alley method except simplified and with new comb instead of old comb.


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Ah, yeah. That's what I plan to do!

Countryboy--Queen sellers around here run out quick. I plan to join them.  

Next spring, I'll try to get a round in starting late March/early April, if there are plenty of drones. If not, the first round will be when I remove my queens from the colonies in prep for the nectar flow in late April, and I'll harvest a bunch of those cells. I'm gonna use the Hopkins method for the last round, in June, to make a bunch of queens so I can split all my hives into nucs to build into ~30 1-box hives for (hopefully!) a foray into almonds in spring 2012.

All theoretical, of course... first I have to figure out if I can overwinter successfully!


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_I'm gonna use the Hopkins method for the last round, in June, to make a bunch of queens so I can split all my hives into nucs to build into ~30 1-box hives_

I tried the Hopkins method using queenless, single deep hives. A half dozen cells is the most I was able to raise in a batch. I 'think' what is holding me back from more cells is my bee density of young bees is not high enough. (Although during the main flow the bees plugged out the frame with honey and drew a bunch of combs in the inch gap between the frame in the Hopkins jig and the top bars below.)

It is a lot easier to work with cells cut from a Hopkins method frame than it is to cut out emergency cells and work with them.

If I was just wanting to split my hives in June, I'd just do walkaway splits and let the bees make their own queens. But that's me.


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

I considered that... but if they were down to 2-3 frames, would they have the resources for great quality queens? I hope to make at least 60 queens, split 2-3 frames into each side of a divided super, let each queen build up her side, and then sell about half of the queens thru late summer to combine the 2 nucs into 1 strong hive. I want 10 frames CRAWLING with bees so my medium supers don't get turned away come almond season...


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_I considered that... but if they were down to 2-3 frames, would they have the resources for great quality queens? _

Maybe...if you kept them fed well. You could also consider splitting at 4-6 frames, letting them make their own queen, and them splitting again 8 weeks later. (late July)

When adding mated queens, you should be able to split a hive every 5 weeks.

One big hive will build up faster than 2 small hives.

Let me get this straight...you want to start by building to 60 nucs, in the hopes of ending up with 30 hives to send to almonds? You can either make bees, or make a honey crop. Since you are choosing to make bees, you will have to feed them a couple tons of syrup (literally) to get 30 hives to weight. This is if you have drawn comb to start with. (Plan on feeding a minimum of 100 pounds of syrup per hive if they have to draw combs.)

Have you priced your shipping costs to the almonds? Or checked out brokers fees? (You want a good broker - how much will you lose if you don't get paid? or if your bees disappear, or come back dead?)


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Hm....good point about a single hive building faster than 2 small...

I have 2 hives and 6 nucs right now. I have an order in for 1 nuc and 4 packages for next spring, and will try to pick up as many swarms as possible. If I have 50% losses for being a newbeek, I hope to have 1 good production colony for the nectar flow, plus whatever the other 3 overwintered nucs provide as they grow to support the queen rearing. Three of the packages in early spring will be split into mating nucs for the first queens, to avoid robbing the production hive. I'll probably buy about 60 PermaCombs to speed things along.

I hope to harvest about 50-75 lbs of good honeycomb/honey for myself and friends, and put everything else back into the bees. This year I started queen rearing and nuc-making on a whim in late July-mid August, and the best of them are laying in their 2nd nuc-super. (The latest ones started laying 27 Aug, I gave them 2 frames, and they're pulling their 4th frame now) If I start the queens back in mid-June, they'll be a good bit ahead of where my latest ones are now. 

I'm one up on the shipping to almonds thing--I'll probably be moving to NM next November (not my choice of location--BF is in the military). I'll have a truck and trailor already, and can take the bees over for about 2 tanks of gas, and load/unload them myself. The broker thing and all the rest of those details is why I'm doing this so early--so I can figure out what I need to know to do it 'for real'! People on the site have said the best way to start with a small load is to add onto someone else's contract, so come next fall I'll be looking.

I'm trying to do all this in small-medium scale so I can figure out what works, what doesn't, etc, to make up my business model and get an idea of costs. Its still a hobby, so I can sink money into it without feeling bad, and I'm learning TONS. The next couple years will decide whether it stays a hobby, or becomes a new career. 

Again, I appreciate all your advice! Thanks for your patience while I learn.


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## Morris (Oct 12, 2004)

Oldtimer, from your experience with the Cut Cell method, does cutting the cell wall down actually make a positive difference? Thanks for your input!


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Have not tried this method of queen rearing, but Don is truly adorable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y64cKn4rLNM


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Looks like another good thread, but don't have time to read it all right now. For my quick input, Here are some pics of my first year of queen rearing. Some makeshift mating nucs, lol. They all worked well though had had their own benifets. The styrofoam one was from the dollar store for 'in a pinch' use.

http://s425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/tweety4926/?action=view&current=d0e038a5.pbw

I did both grafting and grid systems. Both had their learning curve. Both have their applications and uses in different situations. I actually liked hand grafting in the grid type cell cups, because I could hold each one in my hand and under my light-graft into it and then place in the cell holder.Then -most importaintly, I could use the roller cages.

When I read about queen rearing it seemed people went to great lengths to avoid grafting..some methods that seemed like just learning to graft would be a LOT easier in the long run.
But Oldtimes theory about the cells being cleaned out and grafted larva going with out royal jelly for a time in an interesting fact I had not read before.

When I have time I'll read the other posts and perhaps add to them.

Tara, I raised about 175 queens my first year with nothing other than Beesource for instruction. It was a big undertaking because I also had to build all my equipment. Trial and error was no big deal. But because I chose to keep half of them and let the last batch grow in the mating nucs to overwintering strength, I did spend a lot on sugar and feed this fall. . 

One more note: I really like my breeder queens installed on mini deep frames. Made taking a frame out for grafting less cumbersome and intrusive to the hive. I bought packages and installed them on new half sized frames with black rite cell and fed well. The resulting comb was brand spankin' new-soft and clean. If you are planning to try grafting, don't allow your queens to reside on seasoned dark comb. You'll have a tough time getting to the larva.
My Glenn inseminated carniolan breeder queen was overwintered in her original hive from 2011. When I tried to get a clean graft frame this spring I was bummed.


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## beeman2009 (Aug 23, 2012)

If this method interest you, you might also be interested in Mel Disselkoen's OTS ( on the spot ) method. I'm trying it this spring to rear queens for my splits. You can read about his work on his site mdasplitter dot com. Yes, Don FBM is really a great guy & a real asset to beekeeping.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

I have watched Mel's Youtube'd lecture and also plan to give his method a try next year. It looks like a wonderful tool for the smaller beekeeper in particular...much simpler and less dependent on good eyes!

I will post next year after I try the OTS method, hope you do too Beeman! I have twin goals next season of increasing stock and using brood interruption to fight the mites, so Mel's video was a real boost to those plans.


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