# Russian Bees/beginning/NJ Law



## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

I'm not sure where you get your information but Russians have more of a tendency to swarm than Italians being one of the reasons they are considered a good bee for beginners. Can't make any comment on Flow Hive I have no experience with them.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Slow drone is right russians swarm the most out of all the races. But you just have to keep a eye on them. This is my second yr and i started with russians for all the reasons your stating. So far do good. They russians i got are not mean they let me go by the hive. Today i pulled acfew frames they didnt seem to mind. A lot will say they are mean if you happen to get a mean hive requeen. I like my russians and want more. If they always have queen cells or want to swarm im just gunna split them and increase my stock. No you dont have to requeen every year. In fact i believe a queen does her best in her second yr. Yes they over winter good. You still have to stay on top of the mites. As far as the flow hive i think its over rated. You want to get into bees well they i think the fliw hive takes away from alot. Thats just my opinion. It makes it easy too easy. You will get alot of people telling you dobt start with russians well you do what you want dont let them scare you away from them. But there's other good bees too so keep a open mind. And whatever you choose to start with get 2 hives going it makes things easier if something arises. I too started beekeeping with the idea of treatment free. But i soon realized everything cost a lot of money bees, hives, etc. I didnt want to keep buying bees every year to keep bees. So i treated and wow my bees survived. So my suggestion to you is treat. Lean what your doing first then go treatment free slowly. Learn the bees get them to survive a yr first. Ive read over and over we didnt have mites my bees are dead why? Please help. Most of the dead outs were frim beginers going treatment free not knowing a thing. Some still in denile about mites. But learn first then go treatment free.


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## Trever (May 14, 2015)

But i heard the treatments are known for hurting the bees and killing many useful bacteria.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Do you want to buy bees every year? I dont, i dont have that kind of money. Do you?


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Treatment free isn't as simple as buying a certain breed of bee there is a lot more to it than that. The genetics of the bees is only a portion of the equation to being treatment free there is more to it. I've been keeping bees for an excess of 50 years only 13 of those have been treatment free. Some say if you are going to go treatment free start treatment free to begin with. I don't agree I believe you should learn how to keep bees first period unless you can find a successful treatment free mentor but good luck with that.


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## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

Someone pass the popcorn, please, while I fetch my soap box.


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## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

To save myself a bunch of typing I went back and pulled a couple posts I made on another forum advising another newcomer to bees.



> How long you been in bees?
> 
> Any beek with any experience can rattle off at least a dozen downsides just that piece of junk right off the top of their heads.
> 
> ...





> Sorry for my rant, it wasn't directed at you. Feel free to ask away, the only stupid question is the one not asked.
> 
> Truly the flow hive is an engineering marvel and a testament to modern construction techniques to hold things to such tolerances that it could even hope to mimic what nature perfected.
> 
> ...


And I'll add this. Forget russians, hygenics, VSH, survivor stock, ferals, carnis, buckfasts, cordovans, Italians and all those other labels and just get you some bees. All the above have something like 99.99% more in common than they have different. There are no magic beans when it comes to beekeeping not even PPB, I mean treatment free, has the answers to today's problems.
Ask yourself this, would thousands of beekeepers who purportedly love their bees willingly bring them harm by treating to save them from the ravages of mites when unicorn farts and good thoughts is all it takes?


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## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

After I got some coffee and a cigarette uploaded maybe I can make a better arguement.

"Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good"

I learned that phrase as a young soldier and it definitely applies to beekeeping as it does in most things. While we all want the perfect hive and perfect bees perfection this side of eternity is an impossibility. So don't over think this thing.

Treatment free as a practice is more than just buying good stock and putting them on certain foundations, or not, and hoping for the best. While I'm completely unsold on the concept after ten years of trying, with the empty boxes to prove it, those that claim success with it are any but new beekeepers. All that I find credible are beekeepers with decades of experience and almost to a man or woman began keeping bees by conventional means to include treatment. Treatment free to be successful is an oxymoron as it must include manipulations at a minimum to determine the health of the bees. Splits, drone trapping, essential oils, small/natural cell, mite counts/monitoring are all artifical means to achieve the goal of sustainable colonies so is treatment free truly treatment free?

If there's one thing I've learned in over three decades in bees is that bee health is a game of percentages and 100% anything is a statistical improbability. Will russian bees help, of course they will but only as a percentage of the big picture not as the one thing that makes it all work. But then again as a beekeeper every percentage has to be weighed against the other percentages a management decision brings. For instance does the percentage of mite resistance the russian brings offset the percentage of increased negatives of the russians propensity to swarm or potential to bring aggression in the second generation? Only you as the beekeeper can answer that. 
JMO, but a newbee doesn't have the knowledge base to determine that hence my standard admonition to start with the basics, ten frame deeps and italian common stock with treatment only as needed as indicated by mite monitoring, until they have gained a baseline of knowledge.

As for treatments, I wish we could return to the 70s and 80s before the mites arrived but that will never be ever again. Mites are a reality and always will be so either surrender your bees to them or figure out how to manage them. Yes, the first generation of chemicals failed for a multitude of reasons and chemicals that can kill a mite must have an effect on the bees. However remember the percentages, we as beekeepers are still in the game trying with each passing season to swing the percentages in our (both bees and keepers) favor and the latest round of soft treatments are a far sight better plus we are learning more with each passing season. So don't automatically write off everything you don't know beans about as some sort of modern evil.

I'll sign off by saying good luck with the bees and don't assume anything.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Welcome to the be world Trevor. NJ weather to me is like the south. I wouldn't consider you cold. any bee will work. keep reading a couple more hundred posts and you'll find most of your information. also start watching some youtube stuff.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Trever said:


> Hello i am from NJ. i am currently 18 and want to start beekeeping when i can in the future. I have been researching a bit about bees for awhile now but i have ran into many questions.


It appears that what information you have so far is incomplete and some is incorrect. I don't know where you have obtained it, but I strongly advise that you take a course in beekeeping *before* you try to keep bees. Getting proper and correct information in a structured environment can save you much time and money in the long run.



Trever said:


> First off i know that Italian bees are generally recommended to beginners for various reasons. But i live in northern NJ where it can get rather cold. in looking closely at the general characteristics of Italian bees they do not do so well in cold climates...


I have some Italians here in Maine, where my Winters tend to be much colder and longer than what you get in NJ. You should be able to keep Italians without too much trouble, and they might be better to start with. Or, you might consider Carniolans- they seem to be somewhat better in cold weather than Italians, but not as 'swarmy' as the Russians.



Trever said:


> i know that Russians are generally regarded as aggressive bees but cant they easily be breaded to be gentle?


I have some Russian hybrids (x Carniolan). They do not seem to be any more aggressive than any other. In fact, my most aggressive hive last year was the Italians...but that was primarily due to some rough handling. Under ordinary conditions I can walk right up to and observe any hives- Italian, Carni or Russian, without protection (but don't open them).



Trever said:


> One other big reason why i think they would be a good starting bee is because of their high resistance to various things like mites which is in some cases the complete opposite of Italians. wouldn't it generally be harder to care for Italians if they are so prone to mites and other diseases?


Mites can easily be controlled with Formic Acid, which is considered 'organic' and is a natural component in beehives.



Trever said:


> wouldn't Russians be essayer to maintain? aside from the topic of Russians being a good starting bee what is the relevance in always having Queen cells in their hives?


I don't know where you heard that they "always" have queen cells in the hive. They do not. There are no completed queen cells unless a queen is needed (emergency, supercedure, or swarm preparation). Some hives *may* maintain queen 'cups' which are on standby for an eventuality where a queen cell may be needed, but these I have noted in all three types of bees that I keep.

I don't consider Russians to be a good "starting bee". I think that the Russians seem to swarm easier, and require more management to prevent it- not something that a beginner should be trying to deal with, in addition to just basic learning on how to successfully manage bees.



Trever said:


> i know that when Italians are about to swarm they are present so that when the group of bees leave they can make a colony somewhere else. But considering the fact that Russian hives always have them present and they don't swarm nearly as much as Italians wouldn't they be essayer to breed and it wouldn't be a big deal if the queen dies because they are always present?


Again, queen cells are *not* "always present". And again, Russians seem to swarm *more* than Italians. If the queen just 'dies' (for whatever reason), there are not any queen cells there for a new queen to just come out of. The bees must generate emergency cells from appropriate age larvae, *if* there are any.



Trever said:


> Now i have been hearing a lot about flow hives. What are the drawbacks of these? does it hamper anything at all about bees or beekeeping in general or is it really a flawless idea?


The bees require just as much management and care with a 'flow hive' super as they do without it. There is no change in care and management.



Trever said:


> must i always replace the queen every few years? arguments for doing so say that if you don't the bees may become aggressive and or lose traits they have inherited. arguments against it say the bees know best and that by letting them replace the queen they can become more adapted to your particular environment.


Queens have a limited life-span. As they age and near the end of their lives, they may 'slow down'. Some folks want their queens always performing at maximum efficiency (for various reasons), and so they replace them on a regular schedule. Whether you choose to replace your queens on a regular schedule, or not, is a personal management decision you must make.

In addition, you can make your own queens if you wish to maintain a particular line, ahead of your bees deciding the schedule...but this is a somewhat advanced thing and you should probably just get good at keeping bees before you try it.




Trever said:


> if i were to go with Russian bees and not replace the queen will they lose their resistance traits, population regulation traits, and queen cell traits?


I think that this subject is just a little more advanced than you need to worry about right now. You need much more education in the basics first.



Trever said:


> NJ Bee laws seem to be a lot stricter then other regions(no laws exist for my county). must i always be inspected if i do not sell anything?


If your state has laws regarding the keeping of bees, then they apply to your county as well. Inspections regarding the health status of your bees are completely separate from any required inspections that may apply to products being sold (unless you are selling bees/used hives).



Trever said:


> must i always treat my bees with chemicals even if they do not show signs of sickness? i have come to agree with those who argue not to treat your bees and use real honey to feed them not syrup but what should i do if one of my colonies becomes infected by disease?


If you see disease present in your hives, then it may be nearly, or already, too late.

An ounce of prevention is worth far more than a pound of cure.

You MUST decide on a strategy to manage mites. Mites are perhaps the single biggest threat to your bees, as not only will large mite populations weaken your bees, they are direct vectors of infection for a number of viruses.

What you do and what products you use are a personal choice, but you will most likely need to do *something*. I dislike the use of certain chemicals but I find it necessary to use some form of treatment. My experiences with not treating are that untreated hives will die sooner or later. In my opinion, unless you can get very good at breeding bees and generating increase at levels that exceed losses, not treating your bees will cost you a lot of money, and a lot of bees.


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## Trever (May 14, 2015)

Thank you for the info on that. i just assumed since Russians regulate their population that they wont have as many cases of overcrowding as Italians would and because of that they would swarm less. So swarming is caused by many other factors? Also how and where should i get my bees and what places should i avoid? Also i know there will always be trade offs. So i would rather the survival of my bees be the main strength of my hive rather then things like production. i want to have as many hives survive as possible and if that means that i may get half or a quarter of the production i would have gotten if i focused more on production then so be it. i don't plan to sell honey or other bee products.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Buy local stock. You'll have to do internet searches for local beekeepers. That's your best bet. Find your local bee club. Those are really the people to ask. Make your own hive your young, a lot do.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Trever said:


> Thank you for the info on that. i just assumed since Russians regulate their population that they wont have as many cases of overcrowding as Italians would and because of that they would swarm less. So swarming is caused by many other factors?


It is thought by some, that one of the reasons that Russians may be able to handle mites better is *because* of a greater tendency to swarm.

The breeding cycle of mites is such that the 'foundress' (momma) mite typically delivers three youngsters which feed on the developing bee larva (in a worker cell, drones may get more). Two of the baby mites are female and one is male. As the baby mites mature, they are literally sucking [some of] the life out of the baby bee. Even worse than that, is that mites carry about 11 of the 27 viruses to which bees are susceptible, and these can be transmitted to the weakened baby bee. This is how the mites create disease within a colony. Weakened bees perform more poorly, and are more subject to becoming ill from the diseases.

When the mites are mature, the male fertilizes the two females, the bee hatches out, and the two [now] fertile females emerge as well to repeat the process. With each cycle, each mite produces three more mites, two of which go on to produce three more each...this is a geometric progression and if not controlled the mite population will soon reach overwhelming proportions and disease runs rampant through the colony.

When a hive swarms, the queen stops laying and the bee brood cycle is interrupted. Consequently, the mite brood cycle is interrupted as well. this helps control the mite population. Unfortunately, this also reduces your worker population. Also unfortunately, some mites will still be alive an the living bees, and will eventually continue the cycle when the queen(s) start laying again.

There is, however, some evidence that the Russians exhibit certain behaviors in which they actively seek out mites on their hivemates, and act to dislodge or kill them. This is called "Varroa Specific Hygiene", also known as 'VSH' for short. Current breeding programs attempt to encourage replication of this behavior.

A side effect of the swarming tendency is that the beekeeper must be more diligent in managing these hives in order not to lose bees.

I prefer to manage mites with formic acid rather than depend on the bees to do it. I only began a VSH breeding program last year, so I do not have any data to indicate whether it has any effect or not. I only use harsher chemical treatments when absolutely necessary (only once since 2011). Experiments with not treating at all failed miserably, with substantial losses.



Trever said:


> Also how and where should i get my bees and what places should i avoid?


You will probably need to find someone close to you to get your bees from. You should find someone with a good reputation. It may or may not be too late to order bees from one of the big producers. Someone else will need to provide more information for you, I don't have any knowledge of suppliers in your area. I place my orders (if I want any) in September, for delivery in April or May of the following year. I currently have some on order, but I'm not sure I will take delivery, as I already more than doubled my hives last year, and all survived the Winter. All were treated with formic acid in the Fall.



Trever said:


> Also i know there will always be trade offs. So i would rather the survival of my bees be the main strength of my hive rather then things like production. i want to have as many hives survive as possible and if that means that i may get half or a quarter of the production i would have gotten if i focused more on production then so be it. i don't plan to sell honey or other bee products.


What is your purpose of keeping bees, if you do not intend to maximize production?

My asking the question is not intended to be negative in any way. If you want bees just to keep bees, without being concerned about how much they produce, that is fine, and completely your choice. You just need to be clear in your own mind as to your intent.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Warrior and BBK have pretty much covered it.

I would only add my experience as far as mite treatment goes. After a lot of trial and error,,,, mostly error, it seems,,,, I have settled on oxalic acid vaporization as the best treatment for my purposes. Using the device and schedule from snl, a member here, keeps the mites to a near nil level. What's great about that is the diseases the mites carry never get a chance to get going, so the bees are booming out of the hives like they used to pre-mites. I love it!

We currently have Italians, Carni-mutts and Russians. They all work; they are all a tad different from each other. The two Russian hives are our favorites, but they are a handful; they are just so prolific in spring you need to stay on top of them or they'll be in the trees. But they bring home the honey! The good thing is we can take 3, 4 or 5 combs of brood and give to weaker hives and they don't even notice. 

Good luck whatever you do. Enjoy, ,, the bees are great fun.


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## Honey Haven Apiary (Jun 18, 2015)

Trever,

Thank you for your interest in beekeeping. We need more young people involved. I would avoid the Russian strains. They can be difficult to manage and can be a little feisty. 

I would recommend joining your local beekeeping association. This is a great resource for beginners and experienced beekeepers. 

You may want to consider looking at Northern States Queen Breeders Association (Google). They may also be a great resource.

All the best


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## charmd2 (May 25, 2008)

Trever, These guys/gals have given very good advice. Do not be discouraged though. Please hang out here on the forum, read everything, ask lots of questions. Find a local bee club, Buy Beekeeping for Dummies and An Idiots Guide to Beekeeping. 

I tried awfully hard to go treatment free for six years. I sugar dusted, manipulated brood breaks, bought expensive genetics, bought small cell, etc. I lost very large percentages every year. 

Amazingly enough as soon as I started treating for mites I have lost less than 10% a year. It has been much less work to keep the bees alive than it was to have them dying on me from mite collapse because I was going to be treatment free at all costs.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

I took a glance at the NJ laws http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?321747-New-Jersey and they do not appear to be conducive to going TF, twice yearly inspections required and and fines for any 'infested' with 'disease' colonies not treated or destroyed.


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## Trever (May 14, 2015)

i took a look at it too. but what if one dose not sell bee products do some of the rules change in that case?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Thank you for the info on that. i just assumed since Russians regulate their population that they wont have as many cases of overcrowding as Italians would and because of that they would swarm less. So swarming is caused by many other factors?

Most swarming is about reproduction, not overcrowding. The Russians will hesitate to build up in the spring (or other times) and then suddenly the population explodes. This quick build up is the cause of most of the swarming. The beekeeper, being used to Italians, is not expecting it to be so sudden and misses all the signs.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm

Having winter hardy bees is important in NJ, but local feral beess will be hardy. So will queens from local or northern queen breeders.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Trever said:


> i took a look at it too. but what if one dose not sell bee products do some of the rules change in that case?


No, the law seems pretty straightforward and appears to apply to *all* beekeeping, regardless of whether they sell anything or not. There are additional requirements (inspections, certificates) for those selling bees/nucs/used equipment.

There may be other laws in NJ if you sell honey, I don't know, I didn't look. For me, here, if I am selling comb honey, or bottled honey person-to-person from my place I don't have to worry about anything...but if I want to sell bottled honey at a farmer's market (and probably other places), suddenly I need to have a 'licensed kitchen'- which means inspections, and paperwork and other hoops to jump through.


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## Westhill (Jul 26, 2012)

Hi Trevor,
Welcome to the world of bees. I'm only entering my second season so I will let others give advice based on their experience.

There is a very active beekeeping organization in New Jersey, which you might want to check out:
http://www.njbeekeepers.org

They have meetings, classes, etc. and would be a great way for you to learn in-person from other beekeepers in your area. Beekeeping is very complicated and the more you can see people open hives and explain what you will find in them, the better.

There's also an excellent podcast by a New Jersey beek (and I'm pretty sure he's from Northern New Jersey) called Beekeeper's Corner. His name is Kevin Inglin and he is very active in the NJ beekeeping organization. The podcast is excellent, with local beekeeping reports, teaching, reminders of what to do in each season, etc. I'm on Long Island but find it very helpful.

Good luck and happy beekeeping!


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Trever said:


> i took a look at it too. but what if one dose not sell bee products do some of the rules change in that case?


I took a deeper look at NJ Ag and bee laws. NJ laws are very strict, you cannot be Treatment Free and be in compliance with the law.

Anyone selling bees in or into NJ must report those sales to the NJ Ag Dept. and furnish a list of names and addresses of all persons to whom bees were sold. All hives/apiaries/apiary locations must be registered. If you purchase bees and your name is reported, and you fail to register you may be subject to legal sanctions.

All hives must be inspected. Treatment levels have been established for mites, and hives *must* be treated when those levels are exceeded. Hives with Foulbrood below xx% may be allowed to be treated, though infected frames must be burned and other equipment scorched or burned. Hives with Foulbrood above xx% must be entirely destroyed by burning. Hives with Small Hive Beetle must be quarantined and treated, and the ground below and around the hive must be treated.

It looks like NJ officials are allowed to be total [censoreds]. If, in the inspector's sole discretion, any bees *appear* to display *any* characteristics associated with the behavior of Africanized Honeybees, _regardless of the actual genetic purity of the bees_, they must be destroyed. So, basically, if you make an inspector angry, he can say that your bees are "Africanized" and order them destroyed, even if genetic testing were to show 0% AHB. Wow.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you wish to discuss treatment free beekeeping with people who are doing it try the Treatment Free forum. You will still get all the negative comments, but people who are not treating are more likely to respond.


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## vronp (May 1, 2016)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> What is your purpose of keeping bees, if you do not intend to maximize production?
> 
> My asking the question is not intended to be negative in any way. If you want bees just to keep bees, without being concerned about how much they produce, that is fine, and completely your choice. You just need to be clear in your own mind as to your intent.


I am also seriously considering this hobby but my "purpose" is primarily to try to "do my part" in light of the bee crisis I keep reading about. I am less interested in how much honey I am able to produce. In light of my goal, I have a specific (and very basic) question regarding Russian bee swarming. In terms of getting more bees "out there" in the wild, isn't swarming a great thing for me? The original colony goes on, correct?


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Trever said:


> But i heard the treatments are known for hurting the bees and killing many useful bacteria.


You are listening to the wrong people. If you speak with entomologists, people who have PhD's and study honey bees, they say TREAT your bees; there are treatments that will not hurt the bees as you are implying. Once you have experience then you can try and raise your bees without treatments, i.e. brood breaks, requeening, splitting, etc. But until then you need to take care of these animals so they do not suffer from/and/or and pass on to other hives in your area varroa mites! Those are called mite bombs, and experienced Beekeepers shudder at the thought of this.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

vronp said:


> I am also seriously considering this hobby but my "purpose" is primarily to try to "do my part" in light of the bee crisis I keep reading about. I am less interested in how much honey I am able to produce. In light of my goal, I have a specific (and very basic) question regarding Russian bee swarming. In terms of getting more bees "out there" in the wild, isn't swarming a great thing for me? The original colony goes on, correct?



If your colony is unmanaged and swarms late in summer they might not make a queen and population before winter. So they will die. I have not seen any studies of nonafricanized bees that show a wild colony....aka your swarm... can consistently survive varoa. Expensive hobby if that's your plan


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## vronp (May 1, 2016)

kaizen said:


> If your colony is unmanaged and swarms late in summer they might not make a queen and population before winter. So they will die. I have not seen any studies of nonafricanized bees that show a wild colony....aka your swarm... can consistently survive varoa. Expensive hobby if that's your plan


Russian bees cannot cope with varroa in the wild?


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

vronp said:


> Russian bees cannot cope with varroa in the wild?


They are not immune no. They do better then others but still have them


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

vronp said:


> I am also seriously considering this hobby but my "purpose" is primarily to try to "do my part" in light of the bee crisis I keep reading about.


There is no "part" that you need to "do". Honey bees are not native, they are imported livestock. The only "crisis" is the migrant pollinators business pollinating monocrop areas while attempting to manage [imported] mites and disease.

Beekeepers who learn to successfully manage mites, disease and other scourges can and will continue to successfully keep bees. Nothing that *you* do will help *them*. In fact, letting mite-carrying swarms loose could even *hurt* them.

If you want to keep bees for a hobby, or for the honey, fine. But, thinking that you would be "helping" with some sort of "crisis" is misguided.


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## vronp (May 1, 2016)

kaizen said:


> They are not immune no. They do better then others but still have them


Immunity and coping are not the same. If it's safe to say that the colony would survive in the wild (or most would), then I'd feel better about it. Certainly, I don't want to spend $200 (or whatever) each season but I _really_ don't want to keep adding hives.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

vronp said:


> Immunity and coping are not the same. If it's safe to say that the colony would survive in the wild (or most would), then I'd feel better about it. Certainly, I don't want to spend $200 (or whatever) each season but I _really_ don't want to keep adding hives.


potato potatoe.....bottom line all bees will have issues including varoa. To be successful you need to learn what the problems are and the available solutions. Leaving bees to just be bees as the op suggested is a gamble. Maybe they will survive maybe not. This is a very complicated thing to get into. you can try your best and they could die. you could try your best and they could turn into 4 hives.


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## vronp (May 1, 2016)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> There is no "part" that you need to "do". Honey bees are not native, they are imported livestock. The only "crisis" is the migrant pollinators business pollinating monocrop areas while attempting to manage [imported] mites and disease.
> 
> Beekeepers who learn to successfully manage mites, disease and other scourges can and will continue to successfully keep bees. Nothing that *you* do will help *them*. In fact, letting mite-carrying swarms loose could even *hurt* them.


I'm dying to hear the explanation as to why; as ALL bees in situ now have some level mite load in the colony correct?

Some interesting reading, recently published: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4788434/


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## vronp (May 1, 2016)

kaizen said:


> Leaving bees to just be bees as the op suggested is a gamble.


A gamble for whom exactly? Perhaps not the bees.

It's easy to see why there is an organic/natural beekeeping movement underway.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

vronp said:


> A gamble for whom exactly? Perhaps not the bees.
> 
> It's easy to see why there is an organic/natural beekeeping movement underway.


Before you start judging, I suggest you start reading up on what happened when the varroa mite first appeared here. (hint: here in alabama we went from approximately 18,000+ colonies to about 8,000). There has been a lot of very hard work done to get the industry back to where we are today. 

JMO 

Rusty


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