# M Bush on Treatment-Free



## solstice

thanks! Watching this right now!


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## bbrowncods

I watched this.

Do we let nature take its course and flip a coin that "genetics" will allow us to succeed, or do we intervene with technology and destroy the balance of the hive.

The problem is either way you go there is no guarantee of success. There is hardly a prayer that you will even succeed for a year - a lot of people do not. I am sure those people want to have fun, and have a rewarding hobby or successful business. As I write this there are at least two threads of "what happened to my hive?" from well meaning beekeepers that have done what has been taught to them.

Hope is not a strategy. The hope that if I do nothing it will all work out, or even the hope that if I do everything it will work out.

Watching this video is discouraging.

I am not seeing it.


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## Bubbles

I didn't know about the effects of the essential oils on bacteria and I've added that to the sugar syrup I fed to my bees. Other than that, I haven't treated them at all this year (my first year with bees). I will see if they survive our cold Missouri winter. But whether they survive or not, I tend to agree with not treating so I don't end up eating the medication through their honey or comb. I think it's doable. After all, there are feral bees that continue to survive without our help.


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## Moon

bbrowncods said:


> I watched this.
> 
> Do we let nature take its course and flip a coin that "genetics" will allow us to succeed, or do we intervene with technology and destroy the balance of the hive.


Well, for thousands of years this is how the species has survived without human intervention. I try to think of it like this. If I as an individual were to take antibiotics every day to kill off any of the bad bacteria in my stomach or system it would definitely kill off all of the bad bacteria in my system, however, it would also kill off all of the good bacteria essential to a healthy productive digestive system. I would be gaining the result I wanted by killing the bad bacteria at the cost of killing off all the good bacteria in my system and upsetting my bodies natural balance. Doesn't seem like much of a pay off when my body is able to naturally take care of the bad bacteria. 



bbrowncods said:


> The problem is either way you go there is no guarantee of success. There is hardly a prayer that you will even succeed for a year - a lot of people do not. I am sure those people want to have fun, and have a rewarding hobby or successful business. As I write this there are at least two threads of "what happened to my hive?" from well meaning beekeepers that have done what has been taught to them.


Life and beekeeping in general are dynamic not static. If you want to have a fun and rewarding hobby but one that has little to no risk take up solitaire. Pretty rewarding seeing those cards fall across the screen when you win and you have nothing but time invested in it to be sad about when you lose a game. Beekeeping, on the other hand, is one of the most fun and rewarding things I have ever done. Is it a hobby paved with hard lessons learned? Absolutely. Would it feel as rewarding if I hadn't overcome as many problems and worked extremely hard to get to the point where I was? Of course not, if anybody could do it and it was as easy as sitting in a bingo parlor everyone would be doing it. It's not. It requires work, it requires a drive to succeed, and it requires a hunger for knowledge. Unfortunately it also requires a taste for disappointment. It sucks opening a hive only to find they have dwindled to nothing and will undoubtedly die but THEN WHAT? What do you do from there, throw in the towel and cry how it was too hard or buy two packages next year and learn how to make a nuc and rear queens so you've got a backup plan? Personally I'd buy two packages and see how I could manipulate this dynamic system to a way that's beneficial for myself and the system.



bbrowncods said:


> Hope is not a strategy. The hope that if I do nothing it will all work out, or even the hope that if I do everything it will work out.
> 
> Watching this video is discouraging.
> 
> I am not seeing it.


Solomon could chime in on this and give you a bit better viewpoint than I could on the successful treatment free beekeepers but I don't know of any of them that are just sitting around on their hands *hoping* things turn out right. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh or pessimistic, but fools sit around and _hope_ things turn out right. People who are serious about managing their colonies treatment free have done the leg work (yeah it requires work like anything in life you want to be successful at), they have done the reading and the research on what it takes. They have intentionally bought hygienic stock that is disease resistant, they have managed their colonies so that the bees don't start out behind on the race but with the best advantage possible. No you're not seeing it not because it's not there but because you don't want to see it and you would rather be a defeatist about it. Watching this video is not discouraging, watching this video should be enlightening. It has been said elsewhere in this forum that those who cannot do something should not try to dissuade and tell the others they can't do it as well when they are already doing it. The time for can't is over, the time for can and will begins when you stop whining about it and start actively trying to achieve that goal; however, I tell you. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.


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## Jim 134

Bubbles said:


> I didn't know about the effects of the essential oils on bacteria and I've added that to the sugar syrup I fed to my bees. Other than that, I haven't treated them at all this year (my first year with bees). I will see if they survive our cold Missouri winter. But whether they survive or not, I tend to agree with not treating so I don't end up eating the medication through their honey or comb. I think it's doable. After all, there are feral bees that continue to survive without our help.



:lpf::lpf::lpf: Come to New Eagland for the winter.


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## bbrowncods

Moon said:


> Well, for thousands of years this is how the species has survived without human intervention. I try to think of it like this. If I as an individual were to take antibiotics every day to kill off any of the bad bacteria in my stomach or system it would definitely kill off all of the bad bacteria in my system, however, it would also kill off all of the good bacteria essential to a healthy productive digestive system. I would be gaining the result I wanted by killing the bad bacteria at the cost of killing off all the good bacteria in my system and upsetting my bodies natural balance. Doesn't seem like much of a pay off when my body is able to naturally take care of the bad bacteria.


Thank you for your feedback. Don't get me wrong, I think that raising bees is awesome, but it does present challenges that go beyond our control and understanding. In as much as we think we know what we are doing, humans still know painfully little about our little friend. You bring up that bees have been surviving thousands of years without us. I would submit that it has been a tad longer than that, but my point is the bees are now faced with multiple environmental pressures that in evolution were never faced with at the same time. All due to human intervention. So to now leave the bee to her own genetic defense is akin to throwing a person into a sewer and saying I have no medicine if you get sick.

It is ironic that you used the analogy of taking antibiotics. Since I am in Afghanistan, I and every other service member here have to take Doxycillin daily to prevent malaria. I am not a biologist but since malaria has killed more humans on the earth (and still does) than any other pathogen, I wonder why we have not grown immune to it in our evolutionary development? and we expect more from the bee??




Moon said:


> It sucks opening a hive only to find they have dwindled to nothing and will undoubtedly die but THEN WHAT? What do you do from there, throw in the towel and cry how it was too hard or buy two packages next year and learn how to make a nuc and rear queens so you've got a backup plan? Personally I'd buy two packages and see how I could manipulate this dynamic system to a way that's beneficial for myself and the system.


So buying bees or raising queens faster than they can parish is the solution to a sustainable and successful ecosystem (hive)?



Moon said:


> Solomon could chime in on this and give you a bit better viewpoint than I could on the successful treatment free beekeepers but I don't know of any of them that are just sitting around on their hands *hoping* things turn out right. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh or pessimistic, but fools sit around and _hope_ things turn out right. People who are serious about managing their colonies treatment free have done the leg work (yeah it requires work like anything in life you want to be successful at), they have done the reading and the research on what it takes. They have intentionally bought hygienic stock that is disease resistant, they have managed their colonies so that the bees don't start out behind on the race but with the best advantage possible. No you're not seeing it not because it's not there but because you don't want to see it and you would rather be a defeatist about it. Watching this video is not discouraging, watching this video should be enlightening. It has been said elsewhere in this forum that those who cannot do something should not try to dissuade and tell the others they can't do it as well when they are already doing it. The time for can't is over, the time for can and will begins when you stop whining about it and start actively trying to achieve that goal; however, I tell you. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.


Albert Einstein quote. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I would be very interested in hearing of someone who has had a single hive that has survived untreated with unbroken lineage (queen to her next generation biological daughter) for 3 years (5 would be better). Now I know a hive can be manipulated to make this work, but I am talking naturally. Heck, I'll even expand that to a treated hive. Anybody?
I know this can be done by a feral hive as we had one in our back yard when I was growing up that was a continuous hive for 12 years at least (the tree finally fell over).


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## deknow

Actually, some human populations have developed a resistance to malaria...and it wasn't developed by taking antibiotics daily. Sickle cell anemia has very unpleasant side effects (sometimes fatal, often very painful), but it does provide resistance to malaria....which is why it is relatively common in some populations that have been challenge d with malaria.

Deknow


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## Che Guebuddha

> Personally I'd buy two packages and see how I could manipulate this dynamic system to a way that's beneficial for *myself* and the system.


The phenomena "myself" is the very culprit on this planet and must be the first thing to be treated with a high dose of mindfulness. Only then will all the puzzles fall into their natural place. I, Me, Mine must cease to be, for wisdom to rise. The reasoning mind is overrated!

Thanks for the link I already embeded it on my blog. 



> I would be very interested in hearing of someone who has had a single hive that has survived untreated with unbroken lineage (queen to her next generation biological daughter) for 3 years (5 would be better). Now I know a hive can be manipulated to make this work, but I am talking naturally.


Erik Osterlund from Sweden has colonies which are treatment-free for 5 years now. He is a small cell beekeeper. He told me that this is not easy. One must have no other beekeepers in the 3 km radius and breed the strongest colonies, even buy some good treatment free Queens.

I though of having only 2-3 hives treatment-free (let to their own device) but now I understand that without actualy breeding the bees each year yourself, treatment free bees will never come to be. A treatment free beekeeper is to be actualy a bee-breeder (which is the actual word for a beekeeper in Scandinavia, Biodlare).

The problem starts when like me you live in an area with beeks treating their hives religiously. I know we will cause a genetic war but I must hope for them to get along in time.


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## bbrowncods

deknow said:


> Actually, some human populations have developed a resistance to malaria...and it wasn't developed by taking antibiotics daily.


Didn't mean to imply that taking antibiotics aided in developing resistance to malaria. It's just what I have to do to keep from catching it, living in an active area.
I am not sure that a genetic blood disorder would be classified as developing a resistance... again, I am not a doctor or biologist.


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## bbrowncods

Che Guebuddha said:


> Erik Osterlund from Sweden has colonies which are treatment-free for 5 years now. He is a small cell beekeeper. He told me that this is not easy. One must have no other beekeepers in the 3 km radius and breed the strongest colonies, even buy some good treatment free Queens.


Yes I can see where one could achieve a somwhat successful program, where they are isolated and have some respite from the biological pressures most of the rest of us face - more like the difference between living in the middle of an industrial city or in the country. I realize that this is a very general remark and may be purely anecdotal.


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## Solomon Parker

bbrowncods said:


> Albert Einstein quote. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I would be very interested in hearing of someone who has had a single hive that has survived untreated with unbroken lineage (queen to her next generation biological daughter) for 3 years (5 would be better). Now I know a hive can be manipulated to make this work, but I am talking naturally. Heck, I'll even expand that to a treated hive. Anybody?
> I know this can be done by a feral hive as we had one in our back yard when I was growing up that was a continuous hive for 12 years at least (the tree finally fell over).


*Raises hand*

First of all, let me point out the obvious to an experienced beekeeper. You have no proof that this tree hive was continuously occupied. Feral hives are always dying out and being replaced by new swarms all the while having bees coming and going such that you'd never know anything had happened.

Now back to the business: I have kept one hive continuously for nine and a half years. I purchased it as a package back in the spring of 2003. It is still alive. It has only been naturally requeened during that entire stretch. Many of my hives are now daughters or granddaughters of this hive. It produced 17 new queen cells just this year. This hive has not been manipulated in any way to cause it to survive disease. It has not had a screened bottom board, a sticky board, has not been treated in any way, has not been split or manipulated to cause a brood break, it does not have any special genetics other than its own, and no drone brood has been removed from it.

To answer Moon's point, no, I do not sit on my hands hoping for things to turn out well. I follow what I believe is the most statistically reliable method for assuring continued success. I allow sick or weak hives to die (or combine them with other hives) and then breed from the ones that perform well the next spring. It is an ongoing process. My measure of success is not necessarily the number of hives that survive the winter, but the number of hives that produce honey the next spring. That is the number that is (and I want) steadily rising. The number of hives that survive is rising too, but conditions vary, winters vary. We had a mild winter last year and 10 of 11 survived, but I expect the ratio will not be as favorable this winter. In either case, I have prepared for it.


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## deknow

We keep bees in an area with plenty of beekeepers, all of whom feed and treat. We don't feed and we don't treat..and we do have 3 year colonies.

Deknow


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## Che Guebuddha

Hi Deknow,
that is nice to hear. I would expect their Drones would downgrade the genes of your newly mated Queens but I can of course be wrong.
How do your neighbour beeks react to you not treating? Here in Sweden its a HUGE taboo to say that you are not treating. I was even called an animal abuser and that people like me should not be allowed keeping bees by the law  since we dont try to "SAVE" them from the "EVIL" Varroa and that our un-treated bees/drones will infect all their hives too. Ignorance is indeed deeply ingrained into our minds.

Regards


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## bbrowncods

Solomon Parker said:


> *Raises hand*
> 
> First of all, let me point out the obvious to an experienced beekeeper. You have no proof that this tree hive was continuously occupied. Feral hives are always dying out and being replaced by new swarms all the while having bees coming and going such that you'd never know anything had happened.
> 
> Now back to the business: I have kept one hive continuously for nine and a half years.


So you don't believe me but I'm supposed to believe you? I have the same proof you have. Just because it was feral does not make it less so.


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## Solomon Parker

With all due respect, I trust the word of an experienced beekeeper keeping a hive for a decade over a child looking at a hole in a tree.


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## bbrowncods

Solomon Parker said:


> With all due respect, I trust the word of an experienced beekeeper keeping a hive for a decade over a child looking at a hole in a tree.


Why do you have to go there. I made a simple statement about an observation I had as a young man and you have to come and basically call it untrue with absolutely no idea of the circumstances or my observations. If you wanted to prove that you know more than me, congratulations. That was hard.

I am glad you have broken the code on how to raise bees. I am in search of the same thing.


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## Solomon Parker

bbrowncods said:


> call it untrue


I said no such thing. I only pointed out that you had no way of proving or demonstrating that this hive in a tree had continuously occupied it. That's all.




bbrowncods said:


> humans still know painfully little about our little friend.


I hear this one pretty regularly. I find it to be the opinion primarily of beginning beekeepers or of individuals who do not yet own bees. Bees have been kept for thousands of years of recorded history. We know quite a lot about them. It would be akin to saying 'we don't know much about dogs.' But we do. We know plenty about bees. We know how to breed them, how to keep them, how to get them to produce honey for us, what they eat, how fast they fly, how they mate, etc. We are 150 years into the modern beekeeping era. We know quite a bit.




Moon said:


> Personally I'd buy two packages


Personally, I wouldn't. Packages are one of the poorest ways to start beekeeping and in my view the one most likely to end in disappointment before the next spring. Packages are artificial swarms and they are as poor a substitute for the real thing as anything artificial in beekeeping. If starting, start with a split or nuc or swarm.




bbrowncods said:


> So buying bees or raising queens faster than they can parish is the solution to a sustainable and successful ecosystem (hive)?


Buying them, no, but raising them certainly is, especially if they last for several years before being naturally replaced by a daughter. Is it not common practice to raise calves faster than you can sell them for meat? Is it not common practice to hatch chicks from eggs to replace the ones you eat? That is the definition of sustainability is it not? If one is able to replace their winter (or summer) losses by splitting hives or raising new queens, is that not sustainable? No hive lives forever, it is statistically impossible. All hives die eventually. Every tree eventually falls over. Sustainability is having a new swarm (or split) to take over next spring and not having to buy it. It works. I do it every year.


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## Metropropolis

Moon said:


> Solomon could chime in on this and give you a bit better viewpoint than I could on the successful treatment free beekeepers but I don't know of any of them that are just sitting around on their hands *hoping* things turn out right.


Agreed. 

Attempting "treatment free" without experience and hard work is just well intentioned neglect.

I cannot help but cringe when I see the words "first year beekeeper" and "treatment free" in the same sentence.


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## Michael Bush

>I would be very interested in hearing of someone who has had a single hive that has survived untreated with unbroken lineage (queen to her next generation biological daughter) for 3 years (5 would be better).

I have quite a few that have gone a decade.


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## Solomon Parker

Metropropolis said:


> Attempting "treatment free" without experience and hard work is just well intentioned neglect.
> 
> I cannot help but cringe when I see the words "first year beekeeper" and "treatment free" in the same sentence.


This thesis I would approach with trepidation, but the numbers seem to bear your point out. The beginning beekeeper often doesn't have the drive (or the stupidity) that I did, starting with 20 packages as I did rather than with one or two like the more cautious person does. Add to that the fact that the price has nearly tripled since then for a three pound package and more caution is warranted.

That being said, I do not want a first year beekeeper to start any way but treatment-free. Once on the treadmill, there's no good way to get off. Instead the freshman beekeeper must learn quickly to increase. The key I have found is to hedge your bets against losing all your hives at once and the best way to do that is by having more than one or two. I recommend a minimum of five. The increase not only helps in the numbers game, but it helps in the genetics game.


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## heaflaw

I keep around 15 hives and haven't treated in 8 years.

John Kefuss in France, B Weaver in Texas are commercial producers who do not treat.


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## taydeko

I am a first year beekeeper. I started treatment free and remain so. I have 5 hives. 1 package, 3 swarms and a cutout. All are doing well. I successfully did a split, but later messed it up so I combined it with another hive. I keep a close eye on my bees and take measures when required to make sure they remain strong. I think painting all first year beekeepers with a broad brush is a little unfair. As a biologist, I have heard Michael Bush speak, and what he says makes a great deal of sense. I also listen to people like Sol, and local experts to find out what I should be doing from time to time to help my bees. That is why I am planning to raise as many queens as I can next year, catch swarms, and select for strong, productive, and pest free colonies.

Ted


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## jbeshearse

Solomon Parker said:


> Once on the treadmill, there's no good way to get off.


It is no harder to get off the treatment treadmill than it is to go treatment free in the first place. You may have to start over, but more than likely, you will find some of your stock resistant and eventually learn to breed from those that require the least if any intervention while producing the most. 

The surest way to fail in any endeavour, beekeeping included, to jump in with no knowledge with your fingers crossed. Read, watch, ask questions, Learn from those that know and those that don't know. There are as many ways to keep bees as there are beekeepers. 

M. Bush's site is an excellent place to pick up a lot of information quickly. I may not agree with all his methods, but anything he says about bees merits serious consideration.


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## jbeshearse

Che Guebuddha said:


> Erik Osterlund from Sweden has colonies which are treatment-free for 5 years now. He is a small cell beekeeper. He told me that this is not easy. One must have no other beekeepers in the 3 km radius and breed the strongest colonies, even buy some good treatment free Queens.


This would imply that his bees are not resistant, only isolated. He may in fact be treatment free but is at the mercy of other beekeepers, etc. Isolation stagnates genetics and does not promote diversity.


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## jbeshearse

taydeko said:


> I keep a close eye on my bees and take measures when required to make sure they remain strong. I think painting all first year beekeepers with a broad brush is a little unfair. As a biologist, I have heard Michael Bush speak, and what he says makes a great deal of sense. I also listen to people like Sol, and local experts to find out what I should be doing from time to time to help my bees. That is why I am planning to raise as many queens as I can next year, catch swarms, and select for strong, productive, and pest free colonies.
> 
> Ted


Ted,

What measures do you take?

You really should listen to all and learn what you can from each, the good and the bad. If you only listen to those that mirror your beliefs, you never grow beyond your own limitations.

Is Albuquerque a AFB area? If so, you need to be very careful with your queen rearing program.


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## Solomon Parker

jbeshearse said:


> You may have to start over, but more than likely, you will find some of your stock resistant and eventually learn to breed from those that require the least if any intervention while producing the most.


I have not found this to be the case. From listening to many beekeepers trying to go treatment free over the years, I find that removing chemicals from bees puts them at a distinct disadvantage compared to originally non-treated bees as Mr. Bush's and my teachings suggest.




jbeshearse said:


> Is Albuquerque a AFB area?


Do you mean AHB?


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## jbeshearse

Solomon Parker said:


> I have not found this to be the case. From listening to many beekeepers trying to go treatment free over the years, I find that removing chemicals from bees puts them at a distinct disadvantage compared to originally non-treated bees as Mr. Bush's and my teachings suggest.


What part of "you may have to start over" do you fail to understand? You can step off the treadmill at any time. It is just that easy. Just expect to fall when you do. Just like you likely fell when you first started treatment free. Or you can slowly transition from lots of treatments to little and then possibly to none. You don't hold the corner on treatment free genetics. They can over time be integrated into any population. 

However, that said, if one does decide to go treatment free, it would be best to start with proven treatment free bees, with the emphasis on "proven". In my book it would take 5 years of treatment free success before I would consider the bees viably treatment free. To many out there claiming resistant bees just because they have bees they have not treated. Its a shot in the dark most of the time when someone buys "treatment free", "resistant", or "survivor" stock. 

The biggest obstacle to new keepers is them losing their bees in the first year. Lots will probably quit on that failure. To many times I have heard uninformed "treatment free" keepers, describe their failure and why they quit bees. By all means if one considers all the information both pro and con and decides to go either direction, they will be in a better position than one that just grabs a hive and hopes for the best. Not long ago on this site I saw a thread of someone trying to decide whether or not to buy some bees that had come up for sale. They wanted to go treatment free, but knew absolutley nothing about the condition or genetics of the bees in question. To often the concept sounds great, but the application is lacking. 

" 



Solomon Parker said:


> I have not found this to be the case. From listening to many beekeepers trying to go treatment free over the years, I find that removing chemicals from bees puts them at a distinct disadvantage compared to originally non-treated bees as Mr. Bush's and my teachings suggest.


"over the years....my teachings" :lpf:




Solomon Parker said:


> Do you mean AHB?



Yes, I meant AHB.


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## Solomon Parker

So, where can I purchase your book?


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## taydeko

jbeshearse said:


> Yes, I meant AHB.


I am told that AHB occasionally find their way here, but don't survive the winter.


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## Metropropolis

jbeshearse said:


> The biggest obstacle to new keepers is them losing their bees in the first year. Lots will probably quit on that failure. To many times I have heard uninformed "treatment free" keepers, describe their failure and why they quit bees. ...... To often the concept sounds great, but the application is lacking.


Agreed. Going treatment-free requires a huge depth of knowledge, but it can be difficult to attain that depth if one has to keep replacing dead bees. 

My own path was much like Solomon's: Idealistic choices resulting in an early catastrophic failure. And it worked for us because we're failure tolerant (And/or stubborn). While it made me dive into beekeeping with zeal that I wouldn't otherwise have, this could hardly be a reasonable path for most people.

Does it not seem odd to anyone that we are awash in so many "First year treatment free beekeepers", but there's actually only a score of "treatment free" veterans? The failure rate is high, and so many new "Treatment free" beekeepers just take their ball and silently go home.


I see sparks starting to fly between you and Solomon, Which is unfortunate, as you're both 100% right from where I sit.


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## minz

I guess I wonder if a guy has to go ‘all in’ one method or the other. I got a handful of hives here, work with a B in Law on the west side of town and am going to expand to another yard just up the mountain a piece. I figured this year I was on the verge of losing two hives so I treated them. That gives me 3 that I can move up the mountain. Of the 4 in the west end of town lost two full size that gives 2 on the west. If I continue this than the yards further east from home should develop better resistance. Obviously not 100% treatment free but I am into moderation and this seems to be the line between the two. As already stated, replacing all my stock every year is not an option. Pull my new queens from the east?


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## bbrowncods

So how does a new beekeeper succeed in treatment free? Solomon says (for him at least) that treetment free is not only without chemicals but also without manipulation. The only thing left is climate, equipment, the bees, and the "management" (not manipulation). Climate you can't do anything about. Equipment is pretty much the world standard Lang and frame. Bees pretty much fall into the catagory of "get the best you can" or catch what you can. Which leaves us with management and there are as many ways as there are hives it seems.

I guess my problem is trying to understand what is the definition of achieving success? Is it starting with five and hundreds of deadouts later having 20?

Solomon, nice website.


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## Andrew Dewey

For me success is something I hope to achieve "next Year." I'm trying to get there by having multiple yards, some that get treatments when called for and some that don't. I try to do justice to the IPM concept. In the yards that don't get treated I've tried a variety of stocks and will probably continue to as long as my health, inclination and wallet hold out.

At the peak of the summer I had close to 40 colonies. I'm not sure where what the count is today. 21 degrees here this morning.


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## DLMKA

I'm a new beekeeper so my experience is severely limited but I bought two hives this spring from a local guy and along with them came a host of medications, basically to cover the range of common maladies. My intention is to be treatment free and catch swarms and do removals or make splits to replace losses. What I did notice is that the purchased hives that had previously been medicated were basket cases. I lost the queen in both this summer and the hive was unable to raise a new one. Due to inexperience one turned laying worker on me which I was able to rectify by combining with a queenright nuc. I have to think that part of the reason for this failure is chemical residue in the combs, my other 7 hives have all new, clean comb and no problems so far. 

Joel Salatin of Polyface farms did "treatment free" for the livestock on his farm and for a long time had losses greater than the industry in general would accept. Through selective breeding his herds don't need prophylactic antibiotic treatments to survive and has a better mortality rate without than industry standard. He too the hard road of high losses to get genetically superior breeding stock and has been very successful with it. People drive many hours to get organic, humanely raised meats from Polyface Farm.

It takes some serious stubbornness, good record keeping, and a better than average knowledge of biology but success can be had.


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## Solomon Parker

bbrowncods said:


> Equipment is pretty much the world standard Lang and frame.


For what it's worth, I also use upper entrances and small cell foundation and several hives have narrow frames as well. I can not attribute any of my successes to narrow frame as it is new, but some successes I attribute somewhat to small cell and upper entrances.




bbrowncods said:


> Is it starting with five and hundreds of deadouts later having 20?


Is this your experience? I'd love to hear your story.




bbrowncods said:


> Solomon, nice website.


Thank you. I will be updating it again when my master's is completed. I have some results to report and modifications to make to my method. I'm also going to add the chicken section now that the chicken business line is up and running. My chickens are treatment-free as well by the way, as long as you don't define eating the weak ones as a treatment.


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## Che Guebuddha

> My chickens are treatment-free as well by the way, as long as you don't define eating the weak ones as a treatment.


Animal Abuser !!! LOL :applause:


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## bbrowncods

Solomon Parker said:


> I hear this one pretty regularly. I find it to be the opinion primarily of beginning beekeepers or of individuals who do not yet own bees. Bees have been kept for thousands of years of recorded history. We know quite a lot about them. It would be akin to saying 'we don't know much about dogs.' But we do. We know plenty about bees. We know how to breed them, how to keep them, how to get them to produce honey for us, what they eat, how fast they fly, how they mate, etc. We are 150 years into the modern beekeeping era. We know quite a bit.


Reading your website you say "I have no idea" or "I don't know" pretty regularly.


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## bbrowncods

Solomon Parker said:


> Is this your experience? I'd love to hear your story.


No, not my experience. Never owned a hive other than the one that lasted 12 years when I was a "child". But that's not fair. It was before Verroa and I never did anything other than look through a hole.


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## Solomon Parker

bbrowncods said:


> Reading your website you say "I have no idea" or "I don't know" pretty regularly.


Would you rather I not point out that which I don't know? I am the sort of person who addresses those issues directly rather than skipping over them so that people searching for those specific answers will not have to waste time looking for them. I do know quite a bit about beekeeping, I've been doing it for quite a while. I enjoy it, and some people look to me for help, knowledge, and experience, of which I am happy to give freely. I do not agree with the sentiment that we don't know much about bees. But I don't know anyone who claims they know everything about them.




bbrowncods said:


> No, not my experience.


If it's not your experience, then to whose experience are you referring?


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## bbrowncods

Solomon Parker said:


> If it's not your experience, then to whose experience are you referring?


Actually, no one. The paragraph was discussing the definition of success. The thought behind the question was; if being successful in this endeavor means going from a small number of hives to a larger number, is it required to have hundreds of die-outs in between? "Hundreds" was a clear exaggeration for emphasis, the number 5 was picked from your website as being what you recommend as a start, and 20 is about where I want to go.
I think that is a fair question. Is that what it takes for TFB? My other option is to medicate via IPM via soft methods and not have to go through so many. Trying to weight the advantages and pitfalls.


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## Solomon Parker

bbrowncods said:


> Actually, no one. The paragraph was discussing the definition of success. The thought behind the question was; if being successful in this endeavor means going from a small number of hives to a larger number, is it required to have hundreds of die-outs in between? "Hundreds" was a clear exaggeration for emphasis, the number 5 was picked from your website as being what you recommend as a start, and 20 is about where I want to go.... Is that what it takes for TFB?


If I understand your questions correctly, you are investigating options, and you'd like to know what the whole process involves, correct? You'd like to know numbers right? I can understand that. I am an engineer myself and I love numbers. 

The first thing you need to know is that results will vary. I cannot tell you how much, but I can tell you what I have experienced and I have some good numbers for you.

As of last winter, here is how it went for me. I started with 20 packages. But I had overstepped my resources so rather than splitting and increasing, I allowed natural attrition to reduce my numbers to approximately six after five years. Then I started with renewed interest in beekeeping, buying new nucs and queens and things, splitting and catching swarms. Last winter, I had a grand total of 11 hives, one of which died in November, so ten through the winter. During that time, I had owned approximately 42 total hives including all the dead ones over the course of nine years of beekeeping, with ten of those remaining alive.

This year, as I began raising queens in much more rapid fashion, the numbers are not so easy to work out. I made 29 queens, most of which successfully mated, some died during the summer, some were sold as nucs, some were sold as queens, etc. At the height of the spring, I had approximately 40 total hives. Now I have 23. At the end of winter, I expect to have a number in the high teens, which is exactly where I want to be.

Now, if you started with good resistant stock, you may fare better, I don't know personally, but there is a user on Beesource who did just that, buying about 30 resistant queens and maintaining low losses for the past couple years.

To answer your question directly, I do not believe hundreds of losses are necessary. Some are necessary, more if you don't start with treatment free bees. And some level of losses will be necessary over the duration, but every beekeeper experiences losses. Some low losses are inherent to treatment free beekeeping every year, just as losses are required for the whole of natural selection. They should not be seen as detrimental but rather as simply part of the winnowing process. Much winnowing has already been done.


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## Che Guebuddha

Parker, thanks for this last post of yours. It clears alot for me. I am also one of the first year beeks being infected with the treatment free ideal which is better i guess than going the well established status quo anti varroa treatment paranoia. 
I have a few month to study the Queen breeding and increasing colonies by doing splits, artificial swarms and to build some nucs and a few more top bar hives. 
I dont think i can buy treatment free bees in Sweden, but small cell bees i could find.


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## jbeshearse

Che Guebuddha said:


> Parker, thanks for this last post of yours. It clears alot for me. I am also one of the first year beeks being infected with the treatment free ideal which is better i guess than going the well established status quo anti varroa treatment paranoia.
> I have a few month to study the Queen breeding and increasing colonies by doing splits, artificial swarms and to build some nucs and a few more top bar hives.
> I dont think i can buy treatment free bees in Sweden, but small cell bees i could find.


I wa in Sweden for a week back in July (Soderhamn area) didn't see a single honeybee. And I was looking, may have still been a bit cool. Did see a sign for a local apiary but didn't visit as I was already worried about getting lost in the countryside. What kind of beekeeping season do you have there?


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## bbrowncods

Clears up a lot for me as well. I am seeing the pieces, just need to put it all together.
Sol, are you seeing a trend that shows you are making progress, maintaining, or loosing ground?


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## Solomon Parker

I have a feeling that I am where I want to be. This winter's losses are almost guaranteed to be higher than last. It's hard to beat 9% with this many hives. I have reached the level of hives I want to keep so now work goes into refining the stock, and raising queens and nucs which can pay when honey doesn't come in.

I believe I am still making progress. I still have a mean hive or two, and I still have a few hives which are unproven and some which have not done what they should and will probably not survive the winter. But I have a method for increase down, and work continues on refining the plan for beginning beekeepers. I am certain the current plan could work, however, I cannot vouch for it because I cannot get nucs to survive the summer here. Nucs have an incredible propensity for drawing comb and putting in brood and therefore an excellent aptitude for increase, but small hives don't survive the summer here. I think it's a good plan, but just not for here. I need a plan that works well everywhere.

By the way, I heard a story on the radio about flooding problems in Norfolk this morning. I am a Civil Engineer so I found the problem intriguing.


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## Che Guebuddha

jbeshearse said:


> I wa in Sweden for a week back in July (Soderhamn area) didn't see a single honeybee. And I was looking, may have still been a bit cool. Did see a sign for a local apiary but didn't visit as I was already worried about getting lost in the countryside. What kind of beekeeping season do you have there?


Soderhamn is VERY North  no wonder there were no hives to be seen. Bees up there have very long winters and very short summers. If those summers end up rainy (like it was this year) sugar feed is a must otherwise they all persih.
Since Sweden is such a long country with many climate zones its varied.

This year I kept bees up North in region Varmland which is very cold (Swedish Zone 5) (I studied self-sufficient homesteading for 8 month). 
I live down south in region Skane which is much warmer (aka Skania which is Zone 2). I will be establishing my very first (private) apiary in May next year which is inspired with the treatment free ideal.

This IDEAL is the driving force, the energy towards a single point which is much stronger than the energy which is fragmented (not sure etc). This ideal is not treated as a rigid belief, rather it is embeded in the overall observation of what is taking place in the hives and in the environment. Such endeavour can result in loss and gain as beeks like Parker, Bush etc have shared with us. One is to get armed with lots of equanimity since great loss can bring the spirit to the dark side. These are the wise words of my bee master Yoda;








"The fear of loss is a path to the Dark Side. Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those Bee colonies who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is. Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose. This is the path to treatment free beekeeping.
Much to learn you still have my young padawan." - Beemaster Yoda


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## Metropropolis

It's my observation that beekeeping guided misinformed idealism will lead to unsatisfactory results.

Here's some relevant insights from Randy Oliver: 

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-rules-for-successful-beekeeping/


A valuable read for new beekeepers, particularly those leaning to the "natural" side of things.


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## Metropropolis

bbrowncods said:


> Actually, no one. The paragraph was discussing the definition of success. The thought behind the question was; if being successful in this endeavor means going from a small number of hives to a larger number, is it required to have hundreds of die-outs in between? "


Success is what you want it to be. For some new beekeepers, success is simply forgoing the use of "treatments" regardless of whether or not their bees die. For others, it's survival at any cost. For others, it's honey production. For others, it's bees-as-surplus. Some are just content to put bugs in a box without considering what success may or may not be for them.

For the hobbiest, success is, and should be, subjective. If others are determining what constitutes success, one's hobby is at risk of becoming another obligation.

Having some objectives in mind can be a helpful tool to give one direction and facilitate improvement.

I have a very clear idea of what constitutes my own success. 

Unfortunately, I am a harsh taskmaster, and my own bar seems always to be set about an inch higher than what is realistically attainable.


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## deknow

Metropropolis said:


> Here's some relevant insights from Randy Oliver:


...that's the one where Randy uses the term "taliban" and "fatwa" to describe other beekeepers...while he tells everyone how bees should be kept.


> My point? There is nothing unnatural about using essential oils or organic acids as treatments against the varroa mite or other disease organisms. Putting such natural treatments in our hives is akin to the way that people have long used herbs and spices to repel and kill parasites, and to preserve food.


Really?

deknow


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## jbeshearse

Determination of success is easy. 

For a hobby keeper, you are successful as long as you are enjoying your hobby. 

For a commercial, you are making a satisfactory income from your endeavor. 

Now the level of success is more difficult to define.


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## Solomon Parker

Why in this forum must the word success be redefined all the time? This gets said all the time. Why does it keep needing to be said? It doesn't.


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## Che Guebuddha

It is very difficult to get rid of the "profit orientated mind". Our "westernised culture" is solidified into personal gain, even if simply to help others just so to feel good about it is also a personal gain = success vs. failure. Fear of failure is the driving force towards the desire for success. All this creates much suffering, all this is the true source of suffering. May we all find courage to look into our own minds and make the true change in there.

I think this thread is starting to look very fragmented 
De-fragmentation needed! LOL


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## Metropropolis

deknow said:


> ...that's the one where Randy uses the term "taliban" and "fatwa" to describe other beekeepers...



Your response seems unnecessarily unkind to Randy, D.

Upon a re-reading Randy's words, it's clear to me that the "Beekeeping Taliban" refers to the dogmatic elements that a beekeeper will encounter in his own region, whether they be retrograde old-school, or from the "Natural" beekeeping movement. 



deknow said:


> while he tells everyone how bees should be kept.
> 
> Really?


The options presented are not showcased as the only true path, but as acceptable options, by way of saying "If you want to do it this way, that's OK.".


Where I am located, I find myself sandwiched between dogmatic retrograde elements, and a "natural" beekeeping Taliban. Randy's article makes complete sense to me, and was a breath of fresh air when I read it.


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## jim lyon

Randy pretty much nailed it though he may have been a bit too direct in his phrasing. To fully understand his tone you needed to hear the tone of many of the accusations directed at him.


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## Metropropolis

It is unfortunate that this thread had created conflict between the practices and supporters of a handful of simply great beekeepers.

It need not be either/or.

Like Bruce Lee said: Take what you need, and discard what you don't.


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## deknow

Metropropolis said:


> Your response seems unnecessarily unkind to Randy, D.


He wrote the article, it should be able to stand up to my criticism.


> Upon a re-reading Randy's words, it's clear to me that the "Beekeeping Taliban" refers to the dogmatic elements that a beekeeper will encounter in his own region, whether they be retrograde old-school, or from the "Natural" beekeeping movement.


Sorry, you would have to rewrite Randy's article to include "retrograde old school"...he only references "treatment-free" in reference to the "taliban". Here is the section where he talks about the "taliban"...no mention of anyone but the "treatment free" types:


> The “Beekeeper Taliban”
> 
> In many areas that I’ve visited, there exists a well-intentioned and vocal “Beekeeper Taliban” that is adamant that newbies must practice some specific sort of bee management (such as the style of hive, type of comb, strain of bee, or sort of mite management, or lack thereof). In some areas the local Taliban exhorts newbies to rigidly adhere to some form of “Faith-Based Beekeeping” in which their sacred duty is to follow some specific practices, or to trust in Nature to be benevolent.
> 
> The reality is that Nature and varroa aren’t nice to bees. I recently spoke to the beekeeping club in a California region known to be a beekeeping paradise, but whose local Taliban promotes “treatment free” beekeeping. In a survey of their membership last year, some six out of ten colonies perished! It makes no sense to me to set up bright-eyed new beekeepers for the feelings of failure, disappointment, and guilt that come when their darling little bees die a miserable death. Indeed, a quarter of those in the survey did not plan to try their hand at beekeeping again. To me, this sort of dismal outcome is unnecessary and inexcusable.
> 
> May I suggest that if you’re going to put your faith into some sort of unproven varroa management method, that you at least monitor mite levels and have a back up plan. (If you are reading this article, then you clearly were not swept up in the Rapture on May 21. I covered my bets by supering up my hives the week prior, just in case.)
> 
> 
> I meet hundreds of newbies each year, and really enjoy their enthusiasm and joy in their newfound hobby. My wish is for them to be successful at their novel adventure. The point that I try to make is that it is not up to beginners to save the world by trying to keep bees without treatments. Everyone wants to be a “treatment free” beekeeper—but you are not really “keeping” bees if they die each year! Beekeeping is enough of a challenge to learn without making it more difficult by allowing varroa to run rampant.
> 
> What I suggest is to first learn to practice good bee husbandry, such as you would if you were starting with any other pet or livestock. Learn to keep your bees alive and well for a few years; then you can raise the bar. You wouldn’t allow your dog or cat to suffer from a gruesome mite infestation, so why would you allow your bees to die a similar awful death?
> 
> My advice to newbies is to relax, and have fun keeping bees—it’s one of the most amazing and enjoyable things that you’ll ever do, and a great way to get in touch with nature. Keep in mind that beekeeping is simply another form of animal husbandry. It’s your responsibility to take care of your charges, and the reality is that sometimes they may require your help in dealing with a lack of forage or the relentless depredation by the varroa mite. It is rewarding to assist them through difficult times.
> 
> Well, by this point I’m sure I’ve affronted quite a few beekeepers, but since I am an equal opportunity offender, please allow me to continue to get into more hot water!






> The options presented are not showcased as the only true path, but as acceptable options, by way of saying "If you want to do it this way, that's OK.".


...you mean the "options" that are presented as "rules"?

...but the most obvious problem with the article is casting anyone as the "taliban"
. The taliban isn't funny, it isn't a clever analogy.....it isn't a thing for making fun.

You have cast my comments as "unnecessarily unkind"...yet, is Randy trying to reach out to beekeepers with whom he doesn't agree? Is he trying to be friendly...by calling others "Taliban"? Do you think it will work?

deknow


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## deknow

jim lyon said:


> Randy pretty much nailed it though he may have been a bit too direct in his phrasing. To fully understand his tone you needed to hear the tone of many of the accusations directed at him.


Jim, anyone that sticks their neck out has accusations directed at them. Heck, I've been accused of working for evil chemical companies, had bad reviews of my book posted to amazon by folks that haven't read it, had my publisher threatened with litigation if our book wasn't pulled from the shelves...etc. and so on.
Randy is responsible for how he expresses himself...he was writing for a magazine/the internet, not addressing specific individuals who he don't agree with him.

deknow


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## Solomon Parker

Treatment-free beekeeping is not a varroa management method. That framing is totally wrong.

Reminds me of "treatment-free treatments." I will never forget that one so long as my brain is capable of thought.


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## jim lyon

Dean: I'm not going to try to speculate as to what may have led up to this analogy though I would agree any comparison to the Taliban is pretty harsh. I will say that that there is a lot of ideological intolerance associated with the whole treatment free issue and it cuts both ways.


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## Solomon Parker

Jim, could you point out some? I'll offer up myself as an example. Please enumerate my intolerance. Surely someone as volatile and disagreeable as me is guilty of some intolerance.


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## deknow

Jim, I don't disagree....but at the same time, you've seen what I post...I'm pretty consistent in how I approach things, and although I have strong opinions, I try to see things from the perspective of others.

It is dishonest to take the worst examples of something (misguided motivation/implentation of treatment free beekeeping), and apply it to a whole movement. I will also tell you that our first year conference in Leominster with Dee Lusby, Erik Osterlund, Mike Palmer, Sam Comfort, etc. was referred to as a "cult meeting" by Randy...to an entire state beekeeping meeting about 100 miles from my home...this is not "tit for tat"....I've had some productive discussions with Randy, and we have provided each other with some research support here and there...it is just to point out that the attitude is not a new one.

Would it be fair of me to take the worst accounts I've heard of from the commercial beekeeping world for how bees are fed, and talk about how fed bees results in honey that is 30% sugar? ....or is the worst case the worst case?

There is a lot of good, solid advice and information about treatment free beekeeping. There are books, there are websites, and there are online discussions...some of which Randy has participated in. Yet, he ignored all of that in order to toss the term "beekeeping taliban" around by addressing only the worst of what he has seen.

If he didn't want to be judged harshly for writing that, he shouldn't have written it.

deknow


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## squarepeg

'raises hand'

the 'unique rules' that apply to this forum could be viewed as lack of tolerance.

they are why i have 'moved on' from participating here.


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## Solomon Parker

This forum is designed to shelter treatment free beekeepers from the constant attacks they receive from intolerant beekeepers. I have not called conventional beekeepers "lazy." I have not called their methods "poison" or "lies." Yet these exact epithets have been used against me and my methods. Now we have "Beekeeping Taliban." Where is the equal? 

Every member of this website is allowed to use this forum (except for one that I know of) as long as they behave according to the rules which set the topic and decorum of the forum. That's not intolerant. That's regulation. It's necessary for civil discourse and every forum on this website is the same in that regard.


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## jim lyon

I don't consider you the source of intolerance Sol. I don't agree with you on much but I respect your openness. If however you are suggesting that an intolerant element doesn't exist within the treatment free crowd then I suggest you must be living in a different world than me. I am not even saying it represents a majority only that harsh words are often directed at those who choose to treat. But then you know me, just one of those big commercial guys who just dumps chemicals in my hives without regard to......well you know how it goes.


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## deknow

jim lyon said:


> ...If however you are suggesting that an intolerant element doesn't exist within the treatment free crowd then I suggest you must be living in a different world than me.


I apologize, I don't think I was clear. I agree with the above...but I don't appreciate being placed into this category any more than you would appreciate being placed in with the worst of the worst commercial beekeepers.

It isn't fair or honest to paint the whole movement from the worst offenders...especially when there is quite a bit written from Michael Bush, Dennis Murell, myself, etc. This was Randy's choice, and he made it. It shouldn't be surprising that his words weren't universally revered.

deknow


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## Solomon Parker

My question Jim, is where is this that you're talking about? Maybe it's not me, in fact I know it's not me because I don't talk like that. So who does? I spend much more of the time defending against stuff rather than spewing my own, virtuous as it may be.


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## squarepeg

Solomon Parker said:


> This forum is designed to shelter treatment free beekeepers from the constant attacks they receive from intolerant beekeepers.


i wasn't aware that those in the tfb camp felt they needed 'sheltering'.

from what i've been reading, it looks like they can hold their own pretty good. 

personal attacks have no place here. open and spirited debate is what makes this site what it is.


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## Solomon Parker

squarepeg said:


> i wasn't aware that those in the tfb camp felt they needed 'sheltering'.


It was more like "we want to talk about soft treatments" to which the administrator replied "no." In the Bee Forum you talk about bees, in the Commercial Forum, you talk about commercial beekeeping, in the Top Bar Hive Forum, you talk about top bar hives. To this day people still want to talk about treatments in the Treatment Free Beekeeping forum. Why?

"Treatment-free treatments," that's a quote. Somebody actually posted looking for information on treatment-free treatments.


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## squarepeg

so what is it? 

constant attacks or wanting to talk about soft treatments.

why not do away with the litmus test, end the divisiveness, don't make it either/or ect.

pretty funny about the treatment free treatments.


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## Solomon Parker

squarepeg said:


> so what is it? constant attacks or wanting to talk about soft treatments.


Who said there was a difference? There's nothing in the general rules that says you can't call someone else's point of view poison, or call their method "lazy beekeeping" or demand that they allow you to talk about whatever you want.


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## squarepeg

right! and all of the forums rock along just fine. profanity, personal attacks, ect. are dealt with as needed.

but the content is what it is.

i'm alright sol, kinda like the ground hog in 'caddy shack'. 

just my .02, sorry if i fanned a flame.


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## Solomon Parker

Right, so where is the other side? It's not equal. Both sides are not doing the same thing. It's never true. Whenever someone says 'both sides do it' they're actually on the side doing it the most.


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## deknow

squarepeg said:


> i'm alright sol, kinda like the ground hog in 'caddy shack'.


I demand a video of you doing the gopher dance (as punishment for calling the gopher a groundhog). Just don't mess with Stripes, and we will be ok.

deknow


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## d.frizzell

Goodness, can this forum talk about treatment free beekeeping for a change...there is a lot of knowledge out there and many want to share it, but they always seem to have to defend themselves because they are actually making it work...sorry but all this is getting really old...and some of us are here to learn about treatment free beekeeping and those of you who only want to whine and complain about how difficult it is should just "listen" for a change...there are some great topics on this forum...this is not one of them.


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## wadehump

I would be very interested in hearing of someone who has had a single hive that has survived untreated with unbroken lineage (queen to her next generation biological daughter) for 3 years (5 would be better). Now I know a hive can be manipulated to make this work, but I am talking naturally. Heck, I'll even expand that to a treated hive. Anybody Hear it from me i have 7 hives that are 5 + years old and 8-9 that are 3 years old never have a drop of dope added to them all foundationless and all have requeened by swarming every year they are all mutts


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## Andrew Dewey

Part of the confusion I believe has to do with the concepts of "hard" and "soft" treatments. Some people (not me) consider soft treatments as consistent with their ideas of natural beekeeping. AFAIK organic standards allow for no additive treatments. Certified Naturally Grown allows some (Formic I think) as a transitional measure. CNG calls for some things that make no sense to me - like hive stands of a certain height. I can understand hive stand use to slow down predators like skunks - but my bees are already behind electric netting and so the requirement is solving a non-existent problem. Writing standards to cover all scenarios on a national basis must be quite the challenge!


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## Andrew Dewey

wadehump said:


> I would be very interested in hearing of someone who has had a single hive that has survived untreated with unbroken lineage (queen to her next generation biological daughter) for 3 years (5 would be better). Now I know a hive can be manipulated to make this work, but I am talking naturally. Heck, I'll even expand that to a treated hive. Anybody Hear it from me i have 7 hives that are 5 + years old and 8-9 that are 3 years old never have a drop of dope added to them all foundationless and all have requeened by swarming every year they are all mutts


Around here if your bees swarm you can forget about a honey crop. What has your honey production been like? (Once again all beekeeping is really local!)


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## squarepeg

deknow said:


> I demand a video of you doing the gopher dance (as punishment for calling the gopher a groundhog). Just don't mess with Stripes, and we will be ok.
> 
> deknow


:lpf: thanks for the correction dean. promise not to mess with stripes, so long as you don't make me eat the baby ruth.

frizzel, good point.

wade, good work!

andrew, "Writing standards to cover all scenarios on a national basis must be quite the challenge! " is one reason why i think the rules are problematic here.

sol, thanks for engaging here and on the main forum. i probably shouldn't have stuck my nose in where it didn't belong.


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## sqkcrk

deknow said:


> . This was Randy's choice, and he made it. It shouldn't be surprising that his words weren't universally revered.
> 
> deknow


I just got my Nov. 2012 ABJ and this is how Randy Oliver opens his "Sick Bee" Article.

" "It's what you know for sure that keeps you from learning."
And I am all about learning. I'd like to nmake it perfectly clear that I do not consider myself to be the final arbiter on any matter! In investigating many of these controversial subjects, my brain feels like a GPS unit, repeatedly saying, "Recalculating" and sometimes even "Turn around when possible." This is why I take care to hold no positions, and appreciate being intelligently challenged on any point. If something comes to my attention that makes me rethink or correct anything I've written, I am more than happy to rebut myself on these pages." Randy Oliver


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## d.frizzell

Amen!!


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## Solomon Parker

d.frizzell said:


> Goodness, can this forum talk about treatment free beekeeping for a change...there is a lot of knowledge out there and many want to share it, but they always seem to have to defend themselves because they are actually making it work...sorry but all this is getting really old...and some of us are here to learn about treatment free beekeeping and those of you who only want to whine and complain about how difficult it is should just "listen" for a change...there are some great topics on this forum...this is not one of them.


Perhaps you should start a thread.


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## Adam Foster Collins

deknow said:


> We keep bees in an area with plenty of beekeepers, all of whom feed and treat. We don't feed and we don't treat....


Deknow,

Do you feed if the bees have a particularly hard season and are short on stores? Do you never feed anything, or do you only feed in emergency/starvation situations? 

Thanks,

Adam


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## bbrowncods

I am glad this thread has brought out these views.

For a new person looking at starting beekeeping it is very confusing what is out there in the literature, internet, and forums. For me I learn by questioning. I question like I am on the outside looking in. No matter what the philosophy is, one needs to be able to stand up and defend it - prove to me why your way is better. That is where the "successful" definition comes in (however you want to measure it).
Now some may say they have nothing to prove to me and don't have to defend what they do or say. That is fine and you absolutely have that right, but if you are writing about it and sharing what you do, then when I ask, you should be able to answer.
My request to have whose share who have hives that are treatment free for 3-5 years is a genuine desire to guage who/how many are out there. Deepdown I want to believe that TFB is the way to go, but I have doubts. Why? Because we don't live that way. What I am learning is that we are trying to domesticate an undomesticateable (is that a word) insect. That is a tough mind shift to make. We have the medicines and treatments, and they work for humans, and livestock, etc. Why not bees?

Defending what one does is never fun. But sometimes it is neccessary, especially if you are bucking the status quo. And guess what? TFB is bucking!


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## Che Guebuddha

d.frizzell said:


> Goodness, can this forum talk about treatment free beekeeping for a change...there is a lot of knowledge out there and many want to share it, but they always seem to have to defend themselves because they are actually making it work...sorry but all this is getting really old...and some of us are here to learn about treatment free beekeeping and those of you who only want to whine and complain about how difficult it is should just "listen" for a change...there are some great topics on this forum...this is not one of them.


I love your talking alot. Hear hear!


----------



## d.frizzell

Solomon Parker said:


> Perhaps you should start a thread.


I have and got excellent answers...and will again....


----------



## d.frizzell

Question, yes of course we must ask question, I agree BUT
Proof? If you go back and read all the wealth of excellent information posted by experienced (and successful) TFB on this forum and others I think the proof is simply there. If they are not treating and their bees are doing well.. is that not proof that it does work?
Defend? Why? It's works! healthy, happy bees!!YEAH!!
With all due respect I think you are looking for proof that it doesn't work.
For me, I can see that it is working, I am hungry for information, so tell me how, show me how, if it works for you, it can work for me! I know it is not easy, I know there will be some failures, but I WANT to be there! I refuse to use chemicals on my bees or my garden - and my garden grows.
TFB is bucking? Maybe so, who cares? If it doesn't work, why are there so many TFB out there?
Donna
Nova Scotia



bbrowncods said:


> I am glad this thread has brought out these views.
> 
> For a new person looking at starting beekeeping it is very confusing what is out there in the literature, internet, and forums. For me I learn by questioning. I question like I am on the outside looking in. No matter what the philosophy is, one needs to be able to stand up and defend it - prove to me why your way is better. That is where the "successful" definition comes in (however you want to measure it).
> Now some may say they have nothing to prove to me and don't have to defend what they do or say. That is fine and you absolutely have that right, but if you are writing about it and sharing what you do, then when I ask, you should be able to answer.
> My request to have whose share who have hives that are treatment free for 3-5 years is a genuine desire to guage who/how many are out there. Deepdown I want to believe that TFB is the way to go, but I have doubts. Why? Because we don't live that way. What I am learning is that we are trying to domesticate an undomesticateable (is that a word) insect. That is a tough mind shift to make. We have the medicines and treatments, and they work for humans, and livestock, etc. Why not bees?
> 
> Defending what one does is never fun. But sometimes it is neccessary, especially if you are bucking the status quo. And guess what? TFB is bucking!


----------



## squarepeg

bbrowncods,

i think it's important to understand that treatment free beekeeping goes way beyond just not putting chemicals into the hive.

there are a lot of facets to keeping bees healthy, and a lot of variations on the theme.

if you haven't already, check out michael bush's website or order his book. spend some time reading what randy oliver's work has shown. be prepared to learn from your own experiences, (read here mistakes).

from what i have seen myself, it is very possible to achieve maintaining healthy colonies that don't require, or rarely require, a treatment intervention. especially for the hobbiest who has the time to invest in each individual hive.

as i have said, i view not using treatments as the end result of good solid beekeeping practices, rather than a means to that end. there are other views of course.....


----------



## sqkcrk

squarepeg said:


> bbrowncods,
> 
> if you haven't already, check out michael bush's website or order his book. spend some time reading what randy oliver's work has shown. be prepared to learn from your own experiences, (read here mistakes).


If I had bbrowncod's APO I could send him and his buddys back issues of Bee Culture and American Bee Journal. Maybe I will send some to a CAV Unit Commander in Afghanistan who I send honey to.


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## squarepeg

that's awesome mark.


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## Metropropolis

d.frizzell said:


> If they are not treating and their bees are doing well.. is that not proof that it does work?


It's a start, but any hive can survive for 2 years, or a bit more without treatment. That is roughly the amount of time it takes Varroa to kill a hive.

The scores of people that say "I'm a first year no treatment beekeeper and my bees are doing well" are only creating noise that muddies the equation. It's really too early to tell.

Given that a lot of "no treatment" beekeepers inadvertently buy pre-treated hives, I suggest that a hive would need to go untreated for at least 2 years, and probably 3 before it could be considered a successful example of no treatment.


----------



## sqkcrk

squarepeg said:


> that's awesome mark.


Just tryin' to help.


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## Solomon Parker

bbrowncods said:


> We have the medicines and treatments, and they work for humans, and livestock, etc. Why not bees?


Bees are hive minded insects, with a very short lifespan and and an incredible propensity for adaptation. Just like a cow.  That's the thing though. Nobody is breeding for wolf resistant sheep because they're too busy breeding for fat heavy wooly sheep. Natural sheep _are_ wolf resistant. So are wildebeests and water buffalo and other animals similar to the domesticated ones. I think of treatments kind of like caffeine. At first, it works, gives you a boost. But use it every day and in a month, you'll need it just to be able to meet the level you had naturally before you started using it. Go off and you'll crash for a while, but eventually you'll be back to your norm. It's better just to stay off. Caffeine is much more innocuous than an antibiotic.




squarepeg said:


> there are a lot of facets to keeping bees healthy, and a lot of variations on the theme.


All of which should be handled by the bees and their flora and fauna. That's the fundamental difference.


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## bbrowncods

Donna,
First, I am just a novice. Four years ago I was going to start but found out that my city did not allow apiaries in the city limits. Then in 2011 they rescended the law, but I knew I was going to be deployed in 2012. So I have been on again off again for 3-4 years now. I am at the point of making some critical decisions now that I am going to be returning in February. So here we go.


d.frizzell said:


> Question, yes of course we must ask question, I agree BUT
> Proof? If you go back and read all the wealth of excellent information posted by experienced (and successful) TFB on this forum and others I think the proof is simply there. If they are not treating and their bees are doing well.. is that not proof that it does work?
> Defend? Why? It's works! healthy, happy bees!!YEAH!!


This can be said of treated hives as well. There are even more of those out there and the information/industry behind them is well established. TFB flies in the face of that jugernaught. There are those who are not doing well, no matter where you look. So which path is the right path? As a novice you have to sift through the rubble and find nuggets.



d.frizzell said:


> With all due respect I think you are looking for proof that it doesn't work.
> For me, I can see that it is working, I am hungry for information, so tell me how, show me how, if it works for you, it can work for me! I know it is not easy, I know there will be some failures, but I WANT to be there! I refuse to use chemicals on my bees or my garden - and my garden grows.


I look for the cracks in the logic. I do that by asking pointed questions of those who are saying "My way works". Because everyone says there way works, you have to figure out who has been doing it more than a year or two. Then establish what they are doing that makes their operation work for them so that I can replicate it. It is called learning form others mistakes so I don't have to start from scratch. I am sure I will make enough mistakes without having to start from ground zero.



d.frizzell said:


> TFB is bucking? Maybe so, who cares? If it doesn't work, why are there so many TFB out there?
> Donna
> Nova Scotia


Back at you. If it doesn't work, why are there so many treated hives out there?
Don't answer that. Do you see my point?


----------



## bbrowncods

sqkcrk said:


> If I had bbrowncod's APO I could send him and his buddys back issues of Bee Culture and American Bee Journal. Maybe I will send some to a CAV Unit Commander in Afghanistan who I send honey to.



Thank you! That would be nice. I was going to subscribe when I got back.

I have read MB's site. Twice! I am ordering his book once I decide either the hardback or the volumes.

When I listened to his video (post #1) it really through me for a loop. Hence this 90 post thread! He doesn't come across as hard core on his website as he did in the video (at least to me). Maybe I just didn't grasp it until I heard him say it! 

So it has been quite a leap for me from what the main stream teaches. I have been studing the Virginia Master Beekeeper Program and it is all about treating. So imagine my surprise when I start coming across those who eschew that philosophy.


----------



## squarepeg

Solomon Parker said:


> All of which should be handled by the bees and their flora and fauna. That's the fundamental difference.


the facets i had in mind are those the bees, flora, and fauna don't handle.

i.e. the type of artificial housing we choose to put them into, the frame manipulations we choose to do, the taking and giving of resources we choose to do, the altered diet we may choose to put them on, ect.

i don't think we give enough consideration to these extrinsic factors and what effect they may have on the colony. it is why i don't think it's prudent to compare our kept colonies to feral ones, and why i think it is in some ways unfair to ask them to 'handle on their own' some of the challenges that may come along from time to time.


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## Solomon Parker

I have long been on the fence about whether a treatment-free migratory commercial bee could exist. I hold out hope, but I'm still on the fence.


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## squarepeg

good point.


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## bbrowncods

sqkcrk said:


> Just tryin' to help.


Your inbox is full.


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## jim lyon

There is nothing mutually exclusive about moving bees and being treatment free. Heck we could easily do it but choose instead to reduce fall mite loads when the bees are brood less so that we have plenty of strong bees coming out of the winter for Almond pollination and The following seasons honey crop tests free of any mite treatment residues.We aren't doing anything radically different than those who constantly split their bees to stay ahead of the mite load. If we did that long term chances are we would have trouble maintaining our number of strong hives but then I really don't know that for sure.


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## Solomon Parker

So you expect to have to split to stay ahead of the mite load if you went treatment free? Do you have an example of someone who does that to follow?


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## squarepeg

i don't blame you jim. do you think that moving them imposes any additional stress to the colonies?


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## jim lyon

Unless its a 3 day haul and or excess heat or cold is involved or you have massive confusion in a holding yard the act of moving in and of itself is fairly benign. We just moved a load of 800 hives and had them back out on location within 36 hours of loading and the bees are already finding a little fresh pollen on the first day they were set down.
No Sol I know of no one that has tried what I am suggesting only what my recent experience tells me imay be doable. Bear in mind we are replacing ALL our queens on a yearly basis and foregoing any spring mite treatments.


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## squarepeg

understood jim, thanks.


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## d.frizzell

bbrowncods,
I do wish you the best in your TF beekeeping ventures, you have found Michael Bush's website so you are on the right track - lots of links to others from there too. (Dee Lusby!!) I have Michael's book. Excellent!! 
Donna


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## TWall

Solomon Parker said:


> "Treatment-free treatments," that's a quote. Somebody actually posted looking for information on treatment-free treatments.


Sol,

I made that quote in this thread I started: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?254300-Treatment-Free-Mite-Treatments

I probably could have worded it better. But, this coming on the heels of you taking over the moderation of this forming and your narrowing the definition of treatment free I wrote it as I did. The thread ended up with some good discussion and some suggestions. 

When you opened the discussion on what treatment free means I had brought up the point that not all treatments are chemical, there are cultural practices that are also treatments as was brought out in the above thread.

While I may be taking you comment above out of context, I do not take it as someone who is opened-minded and trying to understand someone elses opinion or viewpoint.

Tom


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## squarepeg

cool thread t, thanks for posting the link. what did you end up doing, and how did that hive turn out?


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## Solomon Parker

TWall said:


> your narrowing the definition of treatment free


I didn't do any such thing. I was a proponent of it, I oversaw the creation of a definition, but the definition was voted on by the users of this forum. It was done totally democratically and what wasn't done democratically was written and/or approved by the owner of the website.

Tell me exactly how am I supposed to understand someone's viewpoint when what they are asking for is a literal oxymoron? It doesn't even matter what the words are. It's like asking for a glass of dehydrated water. Furthermore, I will admit to this. As it pertains to treatments, I am not open minded. I have one point of view. I live what I believe. I will not be convinced to change that. And I will do what I can to keep the name of what I do from being muddied up and turned meaningless like the word "organic" has been. You can have "organic," I'm keeping "Treatment-free."


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## squarepeg

Solomon Parker said:


> the definition was voted on by the users of this forum


interesting, i didn't know that sol, i guess it was before my time.

was the vote cast by the users of the just the tfb forum, or the users at large of beesource?

if the tfb forum was created as you say, to create a place where like minded folks could discuss what they are doing without interference from others, i guess it makes sense to have a definition and these rules. 

maybe you should consider a special password too, given only to those who agree with the definition and promise to abide by the rules.


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## wadehump

I pulled 10 med supers total for the year in early june didnt pull any more due to the very dry weather we had all summer left all the rest for the bees did move a few supers from some heavy hives to some of the swarms that did not build up due to the dry weather


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## julysun

"maybe you should consider a special password too, given only to those who agree with the definition and promise to abide by the rules." Squarepeg :applause:

A fine suggestion!


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## Solomon Parker

squarepeg said:


> was the vote cast by the users of the just the tfb forum, or the users at large of beesource?


Whoever deigned to appear was allowed to vote. You can go back in the archives and see for yourself, all the votes were open and voters recorded.



squarepeg said:


> maybe you should consider a special password too, given only to those who agree with the definition and promise to abide by the rules.


I'm going to reserve an opinion on that one. Anyway, it's not my problem anymore.


----------



## bevy's honeybees

I watched the video (thank you) and have followed Michael Bush practices beginning a few months after I became a beekeeper.

I still feel a little thrown off at times from local beekeepers with years of experience. This coincidently happened the day before I saw this thread and now had the opportunity to read the whole thread. 

I'm at 3 1/2 years with my hives. I was told early this week that the problems with varroa will begin in hive's 4th year. He talked about all the chemicals coming into the hive even without my adding more, and that treating for varroa is the best thing for them. 

I am not going to treat, and this thread and video put my mind at ease that I am not abusing my hives by NOT treating. I don't put chemicals in my hives and the only time I feed is in hives that need to build comb. I leave them plenty of stores and keep one hive with back up stores just in case. I only use smoke when absolutely necessary. 
Thanks.


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## squarepeg

bevy, i have read that too, about the fourth year. i'm not sure where that came from, or why that would be the case. good work on keeping your bees healthy!

m bush is one of my all time beekeeping heroes. it was really neat to be able to put a face and a voice with the name and all of the pearls of wisdom.


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## bbrowncods

Thanks Donna. I am looking forward to it and getting M. Bush's book.

Brad


----------



## Cris

bbrowncods said:


> Didn't mean to imply that taking antibiotics aided in developing resistance to malaria. It's just what I have to do to keep from catching it, living in an active area.
> I am not sure that a genetic blood disorder would be classified as developing a resistance... again, I am not a doctor or biologist.


Malaria is actually caused by a parasite that is spread by mosquitoes - the interesting thing is that you're only symptomatic when the parasite larva are migrating through your blood from one organ system to another. This means you can actually be a carrier for years with only cyclical flare ups. It offers some resistance because should the parasite infect a sickled cell, becuase of its flaw it is more likely break apart and die before the bugs can reproduce. (I was in Iraq, although we were a lot more worried about leishmaniasis than malaria).


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## Solomon Parker

bevy's honeybees said:


> I was told early this week that the problems with varroa will begin in hive's 4th year.


It sounds like someone was trying to sell you on treating. If it's your first year, they'll die in your second year. If it's your second year, they'll die in your third year and so on. If there is any evidence for a specific year, I'd say it would be the second year. Bad percentages in first winter for a package too, in my humble experience.


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## Acebird

bbrowncods said:


> For a new person looking at starting beekeeping it is very confusing what is out there in the literature, internet, and forums.


 Yuup


> For me I learn by questioning.


 So do I


> one needs to be able to stand up and defend it - prove to me why your way is better.


 Nope, this is a forum


> but if you are writing about it and sharing what you do, then when I ask, you should be able to answer.


 Nope, that is a personal choice


> We have the medicines and treatments, and they work for humans, and livestock, etc. Why not bees?


 You should dig deeper into this though.



> TFB is bucking


 Not to people that are treatment free. To them it is natural and makes sense. To argue with somebody why they are treatment free is bucking. To ask and learn how they do it is the reason for this forum. If you need proof, you got a lot of work ahead of you.


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## bbrowncods

Ace,
It is a forum. I look at it like we are sitting in a room and talking about bees. If you say something and I look at you and ask you a question about what you said, then you ought to answer. I guess you don't have too, but then people will quit speaking to you because you are there to say what YOU want, and not participate in a group conversation.
You agreed that a form of learning is by asking questions. Some questions are asking someone to substantiate what they are saying is fact. Proof. That's all it is. Not trying to put anyone against a wall and say "I got you"; just trying to see how you do it, and is this something I can try. Or maybe I have tried it and can tell you where the pitfalls are so you don't fall into one. Or it might be that it didn't work for me. In the end you can do what you want. I don't call that arguing.

You're right, to be here is a personal choice - free to leave at any time.



Acebird said:


> Not to people that are treatment free. To them it is natural and makes sense. To argue with somebody why they are treatment free is bucking. To ask and learn how they do it is the reason for this forum. If you need proof, you got a lot of work ahead of you.


It is still bucking the system. In Virginia there is a certification program. Study what they teach in order to pass the practical and written tests. I doubt if anyone would be allowed to pass that doesn't subscribe to the established treatments. Maybe they would, but that is not what I read in the study questions.
I do have a lot of work. Because this is like being pregnant, either you are or your not, there is no grey area. But when I get my bees I will know as much as I can, and go into this with both eyes wide open, knowing who to trust and who just has an agenda.


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## Acebird

bbrowncods said:


> In Virginia there is a certification program.


Certification for what?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Certification for what?


Have some more coffee. Is it a surprise to you that *Beekeeping *would be the primary topic on the Beesource forum? :scratch:

See this link:
http://www.virginiabeekeepers.org/c...r-beekeeper-program-certified-beekeeper-level


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## bbrowncods

Acebird said:


> Certification for what?


Master Beekeeper Program - Three levels: Qualified, Certified, Master Level.
Just a small exerpt:
Safe Use of Pesticides
A. For each of the following materials approved for use in or around bee hives, be
able to describe the procedures for safe handling, use, storage and disposal.
• Apiguard
• ApiLife VAR
• Apistan (fluvalinate)
• Bee Go (butyric anhydride)
• Checkmite (coumaphos)
• Fischer’s Bee Quick
• Formic Acid (Mite-Away II)
• Fumagillin (Fumigilin-B®; old name Fumidil-B)
• Guardstar (permethrin)
• Mite-A-Thol (menthol pellets)
• Terramycin (tetracycline)
• Tylan (tylosin)
• Sucrocide
• Paramoth (para-dichlorobenzene)


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## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Is it a surprise to you that *Beekeeping *would be the primary topic on the Beesource forum? :scratch:


Not at all so why did you send me a link to a certification for a beekeeper. That is not the same as a certification for beekeeping. Do you have to be a certified beekeeper to own hives in VA?


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## squarepeg

Acebird said:


> Not at all so why did you send me a link to a certification for a beekeeper. That is not the same as a certification for beekeeping. Do you have to be a certified beekeeper to own hives in VA?


got a point there ace. again, it all boils down to what the definition of 'is' is.


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## bbrowncods

Acebird said:


> Do you have to be a certified beekeeper to own hives in VA?


First I've read on this thread about owning hives. I thought I was responding to my statement of bucking the status quo with respect to TFB? (post 84)
And the status quo (Master Beekeeping Program as an example) does not teach TFB. That's all I am trying to say.

So, although a single data point, here is a state level organization that does not teach, train, or even mention TF as a possible (viable?) way to keep hives. I know I can ignore them, but guess who has the money and lobby power to affect laws and government.

So your question has merit. I'll even add to it: When will it become mandatory to be a certified beekeeper in order to own hives in VA? And will it become unlawful to keep them contrary to established scientific practices as set forth in the Master Beekeeping Program?

Think it can't happen? Ever thought it would be unlawful to buy a large soft drink at a restaurant in NYC?
Sorry, I'll ease away from the edge and get off my big government rant. :lookout:


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## Metropropolis

bbrowncods said:


> In Virginia there is a certification program. Study what they teach in order to pass the practical and written tests. I doubt if anyone would be allowed to pass that doesn't subscribe to the established treatments. Maybe they would, but that is not what I read in the study questions.


Does the cert require that you to treat, or simply to be knowledgeable about treatments?

Part of the value of Certifications is that they ensure breadth and depth, regardless of one's specific needs and practice.


----------



## bbrowncods

Metropropolis said:


> Does the cert require that you to treat, or simply to be knowledgeable about treatments?
> 
> Part of the value of Certifications is that they ensure breadth and depth, regardless of one's specific needs and practice.


First, I didn't mean to imply that the program is mandatory. The Virginia State Beekeepers Association (VSBA) is a non-profit organization and is completely voluntary to even join. But, for instance, in Norfolk if you belong to the local association you automatically belong to VSBA.

It requires you to be able to _describe procedures_ for safe handling, use, storage and disposal. But I think it is a stretch for someone to be able to do so without some experience in actual practice. Especially a newbee with only a couple of years experience.
To your breadth and depth statement. What is the most disconcerting however, is not that they want you to know about treatments, it is that there is no thought or discussion of TF *at all*. So if TF is not even considered in the curriculum to becoming a "Master Beekeeper", then there is really only one alternative isn't there? (at least in the belief of the most powerful beekeeper organization in VA) And what does that say about those who are TFB? Not much.

And my point in the previous post is that they are the ones running the show.


----------



## sqkcrk

I don't know why the word "Certified" is even included in the title of the VA Master Beekeeper Program. A person wanting to keep bees in VA does not need a certificate or need to be a Master Beekeeper to keep bees in VA.

I don't know how long ago the VA Beekeepers Association was established, but beekeeping has been practiced in VA longer than any other State in the Union. Just thought you'd like to know.


----------



## Metropropolis

bbrowncods said:


> To your breadth and depth statement. What is the most disconcerting however, is not that they want you to know about treatments, it is that there is no thought or discussion of TF *at all*. So if TF is not even considered in the curriculum to becoming a "Master Beekeeper", then there is really only one alternative isn't there? (at least in the belief of the most powerful beekeeper organization in VA) And what does that say about those who are TFB? Not much.


Sounds like there is an opportunity here to add some curriculum. Why don't you create some content, and submit it for their consideration? 

Alternately, you could put on your own bee workshops to show others how you keep bees without treatments, and how others can do it.

It's easy for new beekeepers to rail against the establishment - But it takes some heavy lifting to present a viable alternative.



bbrowncods said:


> And my point in the previous post is that they are the ones running the show.


It's unclear what this means. Are they able to dictate how you keep bees?


----------



## Andrew Dewey

From what I can see the Master Beekeeping certification programs are primarily interested in promoting knowledge in the Beekeeper community. Can a candidate recognize foul brood, respond accurately and favorably to the beekeeping industry for questions about swarms, etc, demonstrate an ability to deal with a wide range of honey bee issues like "What should I do about the bees that live in a hole outside my back door?" and it is late August and a beekeeper says "I think I have foul brood: There is a stench coming from my bee yard." And knowing how the various medications are used is an important part of the knowledge expected of a Master Beekeeper. There is much more to most Master Beekeeper programs - Ann Harmon has had a series of articles published in Bee Culture the last few months on the various master beekeeping programs.

I am likely to take the master beekeeper exams at the EAS meeting in 2013.

[Set opinion on]

Why isn't treatment free beekeeping promoted better in master beekeeping programs? TF is far from mainstream. Leading proponents of TF are often portrayed as unscientific or anti-science zealots. Many of the leading TF people, including some posting on this forum, are "lone wolfs" and are content to keep their focus on their own operations and not the larger beekeeping community.

The master beekeeper programs have developed out of the history of keeping bees primarily in Langstroth hives. Things are changing slowly and MB candidates should be able to identify a Warre or TBH and describe how they are used, and what the goals are for using those types of hives. I haven't seen any indication that TF beekeepers are thought less of than beekeepers who choose to treat, but there is an expectation (prejudice) that TF Beekeepers are not showing all their cards or rather describing their results with less than full transparency.

There are great parallels between the organic farming movement and TF beekeeping. Namely that it takes a long time and a lot of work to take an idea that the general population dismisses as whacked and demonstrate that there is some validity to it. Building on concepts that the general population already understands like the need for decent habitat is perhaps a good place to start.

TF Beekeeping will not be represented as many on this forum would like to see it represented in Master Beekeeping Programs until positive results are consistently, regularly and verifiably documented.

The fact that this forum exists tells me that the journey has started. It will be a long road though.

[Set opinion off]


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## sqkcrk

Andrew Dewey said:


> [Set opinion on]
> 
> Why isn't treatment free beekeeping promoted better in master beekeeping programs?
> 
> [Set opinion off]


First of all, what is [Set Opinion On] and [Set Opinion Off], another way of quoting? I have never seen that before. What is the source of the quote?

Perhaps Treatment Free Beekeeping isn't part of most Master Beekeeper Courses because it is not a set method and how diseases and pests are addressed is not uniformely agreed upon w/in the Treatment Free Community or it is simply a matter of "leave it alone, it'll take care of itself." Which is not satisfying to those who have been keeping bees for a long time.


----------



## Andrew Dewey

sqkcrk said:


> First of all, what is [Set Opinion On] and [Set Opinion Off], another way of quoting? I have never seen that before. What is the source of the quote?


Sorry to cause confusion Mark - I was trying to clearly separate conjecture from what I hope are the provable facts of the first part of my post. Set __ on and Set __ off are (old now) computer programming commands.


----------



## Daniel Y

Metropropolis said:


> Does the cert require that you to treat, or simply to be knowledgeable about treatments?
> 
> Part of the value of Certifications is that they ensure breadth and depth, regardless of one's specific needs and practice.


It asks for "the procedures for safe handling, *use*, storage and disposal. It does not require that you use them it requires you have the knowledge to safely use them.

omition is not evidence. that they require you to have the knowledge to use them it is assumed they expect you will use them.

That they do not mention Treatment Free is not evidence they are not aware of treatment free. they simply do not require that you know it to be certified. I am sure their is a long list of things they consider to trivial to require.


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## sqkcrk

Thanks Andrew, never saw them before. Would you mind telling where the quote comes from? If not, okay.


----------



## Andrew Dewey

sqkcrk said:


> Thanks Andrew, never saw them before. Would you mind telling where the quote comes from? If not, okay.


I'm not sure what part of the post you are referring to. I looked at the post and don't see anything unattributed. My use of the term "lone wolf" was intending to indicate that is how people are sometimes described, and not to indicate a quote from a particular person.


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## Daniel Y

"Why is TF beekeeping not supported better in master beekeeping programs"?

Here is how it shapes up for me. Treatment free is the beekeeping version of Veggan, Tree huggers, Naturalist, whatever you want to call it. It varies in it's details considerably even within the group itself. I am talking about the thinking overall of the group not just bees. Followers can range from mild such as those that try to garden with no pesticides to extremely radical such as those that will make villages from mud huts and live with home made wood burning stoves. See this link for an example. Also called sustainable living. http://www.aprovecho.net/

Such movements an lifestyles are considered radical. Much of what they teach and believe seems to have a heavy element of wishing about it. They tend to minimize the negatives and accentuate the positives or even worse simply make up results out of pure hope. In large this inaccurate portrayal of their results is due to also being subjected to greater than ordinary criticism. They often feel they are expected to produce methods that perform to higher standards than the main stream for example. That main stream methods have accepted shortcomings in their systems. and yet minor flaws in their own are cause for rejection. etc.

Master bee programs woudl most likely not be associated with such efforts as it makes them subject to the same "Those people are crazy" attitude that the main stream tends to have. IN addition the programs would not promote the methods due to the tendency that the methods of such groups are not reliable. When asked to test the methods or offered the opportunity for others to test them. the response is usually and overwhelmingly a rejection.

Accurate or not. true or not. Treatment Free beekeeping does fit the model fairly well. It is radically different, places claims with little or no evidence, and resists being looked at to closely. people are simply told to try it and see for themselves.

I even see in this group that the TF advocates are now making efforts to establish a complete acceptance of the principals or be excluded. The person that woudl be interested in not treating by a schedule but managing by treating only when needed is not really welcome in their group. IT is no treatment at all ever or you are not a part. It is way I see that even the beekeepers practice this radical irresponsible promotion and recruitment of there ideas. IT is more about control of others, than better beekeeping.

So the final reason I see programs to not support TF beekeeping is that it is not better beekeeping. it may very well not be recognized as methods of beekeeping at all.


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## Kristen2678

The closest thing to TF that is discussed at beginner classes in my neck of the woods is sugar dusting. They snicker when they mention that too. It's the local master keepers that are teaching the classes. They won't even say there are some people having success. In our local google group someone asked why most of the speakers at EAS were TF or heading that way and being successful. The VP of the MSBA said he's heard it's possible but that none of these folks "write anything down" and are "not scientists" so there is no reason to believe they are actually doing anything sucessfully. He also said it's easier and cheaper in the long run to treat. I'm going to plug along doing my best where I am with what I have. Having nearly zero local support is disheartening.


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## deknow

I'm baffled by what I am reading here. The worst thinformation that could happen to "treatment free beekeeping" would be to have it taught in a master beekeeper program by someone that does not understand and/or practice it. Would you take a beekeeping class from a non beekeeper?
with regards to transparency, I'm not sure what you are expecting. There are at least two conferences every year, Michael has answered a billion or so questions from others, built a website that everyone visits, wrote a rather comprehensive book, and has been speaking to more bee clubs than anyone else on the circuit.
We run (and finance) a conference every year, wrote a book, speak regularly at bee clubs, support our local club, and teach both beginning and advanced beekeeping....we have a teaching apiary in downtown Boston where we do weekly hive openings with anyone who is interested....
How transparent do you expect us to be?

As far as the commercial viability of treatment free beekeeping, we have three suppliers who are treatment free....they all make their livings with the bees, and they are paid a healthy premium for their product.

Deknow


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## deknow

Kristen2678 said:


> The closest thing to TF that is discussed at beginner classes in my neck of the woods is sugar dusting.
> 
> 
> 
> you are not far from us....we are teaching both a beginners and advanced beekeeping course in Boston (at the intercontinental Hotel) on Monday nights in January. We offer a 6 day treatment free beekeeping conference in July (in Leominster, ma)...and we have some treatment free bees in Portland. Beeuntoothers.com
> 
> Deknow
Click to expand...


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## Kristen2678

The funny and sad part of it was, Michael Bush was a speaker at the state meeting this year and a couple weeks prior had given a talk and open hive session just outside of Portland. He signed my copy of his book. I wish I'd asked him why he's never "written anything down"...... Like I said, painful for a beginner. They just don't want to see what's there. 

DeKnow, I'm already on the list for a couple of your queens net year. My new nucs are coming from Kirk Webster. I'm thankful for you folks that have put the time and effort in. I'd be lost and on the treatment wagon otherwise.


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## sqkcrk

Andrew Dewey said:


> I'm not sure what part of the post you are referring to. I looked at the post and don't see anything unattributed. My use of the term "lone wolf" was intending to indicate that is how people are sometimes described, and not to indicate a quote from a particular person.


Is the text between [Set Opinion On] and [Set Opinion Off] your personal statement or is it a quote. If the former, what's the point of what is in those brackets? I think I understood the "lone wolf", just not the brackets.


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## Andrew Dewey

sqkcrk said:


> Is the text between [Set Opinion On] and [Set Opinion Off] your personal statement or is it a quote. If the former, what's the point of what is in those brackets? I think I understood the "lone wolf", just not the brackets.


personal statement


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## sqkcrk

Okay, thanks.


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## Andrew Dewey

Kristen2678 said:


> The closest thing to TF that is discussed at beginner classes in my neck of the woods is sugar dusting. They snicker when they mention that too. It's the local master keepers that are teaching the classes. They won't even say there are some people having success. In our local google group someone asked why most of the speakers at EAS were TF or heading that way and being successful. The VP of the MSBA said he's heard it's possible but that none of these folks "write anything down" and are "not scientists" so there is no reason to believe they are actually doing anything sucessfully. He also said it's easier and cheaper in the long run to treat. I'm going to plug along doing my best where I am with what I have. Having nearly zero local support is disheartening.


I don't think it is accurate to assert that "most of the speakers at EAS were TF or heading that way." I do think presenters at EAS are/were more inclined (than beginning beekeepers) to understand IPM and be supportive of thoughtful and deliberate responses to observed conditions.


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## deknow

.....if you ask people who buy honey if they think that most bees are fed sugar and hfcs and that most bees are medicated, you will invariably get the answers of "what?" And "how do you medicate a bee?" To the customers, most assume that all bees are treatment free.
Most of our customers and prospective customers who buy honey from another beekeeper or health food store assure us that their beekeeper would never do such a thing....there I'd a disconnect between production and consumer perception. Which is fringe?

[email protected].


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## Che Guebuddha

That is so true what you say deknow. 
I have a friend who makes tinctures, salvae, soaps, etc ... She was very proud of her beeswax salvae which she made from foundation wax sheets. When i explained her that all wax foundation has herbicides and pesticides in it she was shocked. I did explain her that it is easy to get your own free comb in a top bar hive. The next she did is build a KTBH and will get bees next year. Its a start. One step at a time. Keep on informing the public and follow your heart no matter who sais what.


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## jmgi

When I tell someone I am a beekeeper, 9 out of 10 people will ask me how the honey bees are doing with the mites and diseases affecting them, so it is good that they are aware of that, but outside of that, they don't realize that bees are fed syrup and hfcs like deknow said, and that they are medicated by most beekeepers, and most commercially available beeswax is tainted with the medication residue. One of the health food stores where I sell my honey, they are extremely particular about the ingredients in everything that is on their shelves, if I used anything on my bees that they didn't like, and was honest with them about it, I'm fairly certain I wouldn't be selling honey there anymore. Obviously, they were thrilled when I assured them that my bees and honey were untainted with anything that shouldn't be there naturally. John


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## Andrew Dewey

Honey is a food and it is important to remember that when selling it.

I have never had a customer ask me about treatments I use on my bees or any potential residues in the honey.

I deliver unheated lightly strained honey to a wholesale account and it promptly is heated in an effort to slow down crystallization.

I attend a fair put on by an organization that does organic certification and the big honey vendor there is a migratory commercial operation that uses medications.

I have hives located on an organic farm with a farm store and they sell the honey of the above vendor. I couldn't begin to supply them with the quantity they sell.

My point is, the average consumer hears "honey" and thinks all is well. Very few people in this neck of the woods are concerned with what might be in it.


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## Solomon Parker

Andrew Dewey said:


> Very few people in this neck of the woods are concerned with what might be in it.


I think the case Dean is making is that they don't know that being concerned about what is in it is an option.


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## jmgi

I don't think that there is anyone who doesn't think that everything we put on our table is contaminated with something, pesticides, herbicides, antibiotics, or hormones, they just accept it and don't question it, it's the new normal. Honey is just another food item, it gets thrown into the shopping cart along with everything else, most people don't look at it any differently. There is a growing number of consumers who go out of their way to educate themselves on what is going on with our food supply, and they seek out a more pure product, and will pay more for it. Hopefully this trend will continue. John


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## deknow

Che Guebuddha said:


> That is so true what you say deknow.


Che, I have a lot of European tourists come by my tent...Greek, Italian, French, Swedish......they all laugh at the idea that a beekeeper would feed honey or medicate bees.....certainly the beekeepers tin their country are all natural and organic.
I have had several Moroccan customers....they come to my table and ask if I have honey from bees that are not fed sugar....I consistently hear that the quality of honey produced in Morocco was excellent ....until the beekeepers started to feed sugar. Now they come to us and send it home. I had a Saudi Arabian man who was headed home later in the day...tasted the honey, and bought a case of 24 1/2lb jars to bring home for gifts.

deknow


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## Riskybizz

Depending upon what kind of a market you are selling to many people can be very well educated. In addition, I have always enjoyed exlaining the difference to those that might not be aware of raw honey vs. commercial grade honey. I do not mean to say that honey produced and bottled by commercial beekeepers is an inferior product, but what happens to it after it is sold in bulk might leave a lot to be desired. We have never had a problem here marketing our local N.M. honey as a premium grade product, because thats what it is. Our production and bottling standards is what sets us apart.


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## Che Guebuddha

More and more people will eventually know about the truth. One day. 
My first neighbourhad a swarm this summer settle under his roof and he simply let them be. Later they disapeared he said, probably rodents. 
Anyway I said that i would like to check in spring if the nest is still there and he said theyprobably built that round thing. 
I told him that wasps and hornets build the round nest and bees build wax comb. 
He asked me in honest shock "can they on their own build the square wax comb!?"
There are many kids in Sweden who think the milk comes from the store and not from a chained cow. 

I see many reasons for getting out of a city lifeand claiming some land which needs to be turned into Organic Soil once again. 

This thread is suffering from great fragmentation LOL


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## Metropropolis

Daniel Y said:


> Such movements an lifestyles are considered radical. Much of what they teach and believe seems to have a heavy element of wishing about it. They tend to minimize the negatives and accentuate the positives or even worse simply make up results out of pure hope.


Heartily agreed.

95% of "Treatment Free beekeeping" seems to consist of preaching to others the ills of treatments, and very little is about sharing actionable methods to get there. Actual success rate is difficult to establish: Once one factors out the hordes of "First year treatment free" beekeepers, one is left with a handful of success stories remaining. These success stories are can be difficult to evaluate, given no consistent meaning of what "no treatments" means. 

It is to the advantage of the TF movement to sort the true-successes from the wishful-successes, and take steps to understand the factors involved. 

Randy Oliver's information gathering initiative is a step in that direction.


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## sqkcrk

Solomon Parker said:


> I think the case Dean is making is that they don't know that being concerned about what is in it is an option.


Now that you know there is something to be concerned about do you feel safer?


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## deknow

sqkcrk said:


> Now that you know there is something to be concerned about do you feel safer?


Once the customer is educated, they have a choice of how they want to spend their money.

deknow


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## deknow

Metropropolis said:


> Randy Oliver's information gathering initiative is a step in that direction.


With the exception of Randy's own small cell bees that survive without treatments on HSC (his only untreated bees), all the TF beekeepers I know allow virtually unlimited drone production (although some drone comb might be culled). What are the mite dynamics in such a hive? Are they the same as in hives where drone comb/production is severly restricted and/or drone removal is practiced? [uhhh...no, they can't be]. How can Randy evaluate what the mite populations represent if he doesn't know anything about the dynamics of the system? I like Randy, but I don't have confidence that this data will reveal anything useful...I think it will be severly misrepresented (ie. compared directly to populations from treated colonies with restricted drone production) and misinterpreted.

Randy is a great example of the treadmill...on paper he would like to be treatment free...but the way he approaches problem solving associated with keeping bees and running a business will always find an economic reason to use a treatment. That isn't an insult, it isn't my problem, and it's not my fault. Most things in life require trade offs...to say you want to be treatment free, or you wish you didn't have to use treatments is all well and good, but what are you willing to give up to get there? The only way to actually be treatment free is to have used your last treatment.

deknow


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## deknow

Metropropolis said:


> It is to the advantage of the TF movement to sort the true-successes from the wishful-successes, and take steps to understand the factors involved.


Ramona and I take this very seriously when we plan our conference every year. Chris Baldwin is a migratory beekeeper (almonds and all) that have been off mite treatments for years (has used some antibiotics in recent past for persistent EFB). Les Crowder, a commercial TBH beekeeper (who used to pollinate almonds with TBHs before his hives were hit with roundup overspray in an organic orchard, and author of a new TBH book), Erik Osterlund from Sweden, Michael Bush, Dee Lusby, Sam Comfort, Kirk Webster, Corwin Bell.....there are two good books on solid treatment free beekeeping (michael bush's and ours...along with Les's TBH book, which is also treatment free).
I can't tell other people what to do. I can't tell other people what they consider treatment free. I can't tell other people not to treat their bees. I can't herd "treatment free beekeepers" into a group message...and i wouldn't want to. What is the best part of the conferences is that there is much disagreement, and many different approaches. I can state my opinion online or in print...the whole point of a conference is to hear many sides and many experiences. I can't do much more than finance and plan a curriculum for 6 days...what else do you think I should do?

deknow


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## squarepeg

didn't know you had a book dean. where can i find info about the book and the conferences?


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## deknow

The book is "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Beekeeping" (written with my wife, "Ramona on Beesource):
http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-Idiots-Guide-Beekeeping/dp/1615640118
The conference dates and some of the speakers for this year's event are on our website, http://BeeUntoOthers.com ...you can also read Kirk Webster's review (titled "the best beekeeping meeting i ever attended") on his website, http://kirkwebster.com .

deknow


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## squarepeg

thanks!


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## deknow

...but be sure not to tell anyone...we are trying to be secretive about this you know.

deknow


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## squarepeg

my fingers are tied!


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## Riskybizz

deknow

Les is a close associate her in N.M. I had no idea he had a pesitcide kill-off he never mentioned it. Roundup-up in an organic orchard ?? I have never heard of such a thing. I knew he lost a lost of bees last winter but this is certainly news to me.


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## Andrew Dewey

deknow said:


> ...but be sure not to tell anyone...we are trying to be secretive about this you know.
> 
> deknow



But we know about the club house!

Seriously, what role do you ascribe to geographical location? My conclusion is that TF is easier to accomplish in some locals and that stocks are not yet commercially available that can survive everywhere. I recognize that you have speakers at your conference from all over - what are your thoughts on the conditions needed (or desirable) to succeed in TF beekeeping? (Success in this instance meaning that the bees over winter, thrive, and produce surplus honey for the beekeeper to harvest)


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## Solomon Parker

Bees aren't meant to survive everywhere. Hives are not meant to move. They're meant to survive in one place.


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## Che Guebuddha

squarepeg said:


> didn't know you had a book dean. where can i find info about the book...?


@Dean
just a suggestion since I too didnt know about your book until you mentioned it in this thread. Can you maybe link to the book in your signature? This will reach many much sooner.

Just a thought.

Kind regards


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## Andrew Dewey

Solomon Parker said:


> Bees aren't meant to survive everywhere. Hives are not meant to move. They're meant to survive in one place.


Ouch. There is plain speaking going on in this thread.


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## deknow

...but you can't have bees.

Don't you oppress me!

You can't have bees....you haven't got a bloom!

....with apologies to Monte python and the people's liberation front


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## Oldtimer

deknow said:


> .....if you ask people who buy honey if they think that most bees are fed sugar and hfcs and that most bees are medicated, you will invariably get the answers of "what?" And "how do you medicate a bee?" To the customers, most assume that all bees are treatment free.


Negative advertising is always bad for an industry as a whole.


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## Andrew Dewey

Solomon Parker said:


> Hives are not meant to move. They're meant to survive in one place.


I've been thinking about this. At least 50,000 colonies come in to my area each spring for Blueberry pollination. Some drops are within a few miles of my place. Granted pollination by native pollinators has taken place for thousands of years but it has been shown convincingly that imported honey bees increase the set and the resultant crop size. Many of the fields near me are being cleared of rocks to make it easier for mechanical picking and pruning devices to operate while reducing native pollinator habitat. And the fields and plants are sprayed with all sorts of herbicides, insecticides and fungicides that make life tough for surviving native pollinators.

So while I can certainly see that it may be best for honey bees that colonies live out their lives in one location, the reality is that there are many people who rely on income produced with the help of migratory honey bees. That isn't going to end tomorrow. And some primarily honey producers chase the bloom too.

Solomon - are you saying that migratory pollination, and the practice of following the bloom for honey production are practices that are bad for honey bees and should be stopped?


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## bbrowncods

I'll bite.

It should be stopped. We are taking everything the land can produce. And when it can't produce any more we pour junk on it to take away any natural competition from the crop we are trying to maximize. It is not sustainable. Eventually something will collapse (CCD?) and there will be nothing. At least for a while. Nature will repair herself after we are gone. In the mean time what happens to those who are left? I think this is way more problematic for our future than Global Warming.
If you think about it, we humans are in a hive. And it has contaminated wax in it, and we are treated with antibiotics, and there are Varroa and beatles. But we cannot change and we work like the worker bee until the hive is gone.
Unless we change, it's over. Maybe not in our lifetime, but in the next 200 years, there will be a collapse.

But hey, that is not our problem, right?


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## deknow

Oldtimer said:


> Negative advertising is always bad for an industry as a whole.


...and the industry is best served by having customers be misinformed?


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## deknow

I would recommend reading this thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-Honey-and-the-threat-to-U-S-Beekeepers/page3

....lots of specifics of some of the bad practices (in your back yard, andrew) from reputable sources...as well as discussion on the market aspects.

Remember, "the industry" wants honey to remain a commidity...all things labeled "honey" of equal value. Who benefits? Well, if there is a consumer perception that honey is "pure", and you can buy cheap imported or domestic "honey" produced with low labor costs and questionable practices (ie. honey supers on with full HFCS feeders on top in the blueberries) and sell it as "pure honey" to a trusting american consumer, then you win big...this is the packing and importing end of the industry, as well as some of the larger domestic operations with "low labor costs". 

Beekeepers with higher costs and a higher quality product (via testing, practices, etc) can't compete in a commiditized system...Imagine you are still in school, and you are taking a class. At the end of the semester, the teacher asks the class if they would rather have the entire class graded on a pass/fail basis, or with letter grades. If you are getting an A, you want letter grades (why would you want to get the same "pass" as someone who deserves a C-?)......If you are getting a C-, you are going to want a "pass". The lower the quality honey you are selling, the bigger the incentive to have all honey considered equal.

deknow


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## Solomon Parker

Andrew Dewey said:


> are you saying that migratory pollination, and the practice of following the bloom for honey production are practices that are bad for honey bees and should be stopped?


What I am saying is that I hold out hope, but I do not believe bees can survive when moved much. When I moved my bees here from Oregon, all but one of the hives died within two years when they had already survived for five. I have nothing to say about it needing to be stopped.


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## Solomon Parker

deknow said:


> ...and the industry is best served by having customers be misinformed?


Aren't all industries? Success is defined as profit remember?


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## Acebird

Andrew Dewey said:


> what role do you ascribe to geographical location?


I believe the honeybee can survive in most locations but not at the populations that we as humans desire. We steal from them so our definition of survival is related to producing something for us. We consider some of what they harvest as surplus. Is that what our grain bins are or is it mostly stored food that we know we will need later?
Suppose a super being took over the earth and saw all the food stores we have that they could use to fuel their space ships. They look at all the fat Americans and others around the world and decide that they could skim 30% of our stores. Of course the weak would die and everybody left would slim down some. Then the space being thinks well maybe they could live on less if we injected them with this protein substitute. So they take another 5%. Along comes a drought, flood or fire (natural occurrence) and the stores are wiped out that year so the human population in that area crashes. So now the supper beings have to collect a few humans from the areas that survived and start over in the stricken area to rebuild the population so they can make more stores.


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## BeeCurious

Moon said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DFKqgWuCBA
> 
> Just a video of Michael Bush I came across that I thought was a really good watch. Pretty much everything that's always being said here only being said on video by Bush.


The above, is the original posting.


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## bbrowncods

BeeCurious said:


> The above, is the original posting.


We'll get back around to it!


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## sqkcrk

Solomon Parker said:


> Bees aren't meant to survive everywhere. Hives are not meant to move. They're meant to survive in one place.


Then how in the world did you get to be a beekeeper. Not only were bees moved across an Ocean, but didn't you move your bees from where you bought them? Or do they sit where you collected the swarms?

Too simplistic Solomon. Besides, who "meant" what?


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## Solomon Parker

That's one point of view. 

They're "meant" to survive where they have become adapted.


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## Andrew Dewey

deknow said:


> I would recommend reading this thread:
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-Honey-and-the-threat-to-U-S-Beekeepers/page3
> 
> ....lots of specifics of some of the bad practices (in your back yard, andrew) from reputable sources...as well as discussion on the market aspects.
> deknow


Thank you Dean for the link. I drive around in the spring taking pictures from the road of migratory hives. I'll have to look back at those pictures to see if there are any supers. I know from personal knowledge that Mike and Maine's Bee Inspector are good friends. It does not surprise me that Mike has the first hand information he shared in his thread, depressing though I find it. [disclosure: much of my stock comes from Mike]

Weather conditions during the Blueberry pollination season are often lousy with the bees unable to fly because of wet and cold. Blueberries are a poor source of nectar, and bees on the barrens are at risk for starving. That doesn't excuse feeding with supers on; only shows that feeding while on Blueberrries is not uncommon. It is a tricky time of year here - the Shad and the wild apples have finished blooming, dandelions are pretty much gone - and colonies are expected to be robust and populous in order to complete their pollination mission.

I was not previously aware of feeding with honey supers on - I don't want to believe that it is a widespread practice - I will actively be looking for it next spring.


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## sqkcrk

Solomon Parker said:


> That's one point of view.
> 
> They're "meant" to survive where they have become adapted.


Which is everywhere other than where they won't survive. I don't see why you made your original statement.


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## Solomon Parker

Hives don't move Mark. They don't. Swarms may go a couple miles, if that. They don't move 1000 miles in any direction in a year, much less 10. They are not migratory animals. You cannot expect them to be hunky dory if you move them to an entirely different climate all the time. They're not adapted for it. They're not "meant" to move.


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## Acebird

Andrew Dewey said:


> I was not previously aware of feeding with honey supers on - I don't want to believe that it is a widespread practice - I will actively be looking for it next spring.


Feeding with honey supers on is not a crime. Selling the honey as honey is. I am not going to say this happens but it is possible that the honey in these supers is used for feed to expand other hives.


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## squarepeg

Solomon Parker said:


> Hives don't move Mark. They don't. Swarms may go a couple miles, if that. They don't move 1000 miles in any direction in a year, much less 10. They are not migratory animals. You cannot expect them to be hunky dory if you move them to an entirely different climate all the time. They're not adapted for it. They're not "meant" to move.


but then neither do they move their combs around, nor do they donate comb, brood, and resources to those that would have it. (and let's don't forget that wild bees aren't force fed a less than optimal diet).

are your manipulations any less invasive that trucking them around?


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## Acebird

Solomon Parker said:


> They're not adapted for it. They're not "meant" to move.


They have adapted like other insects have. There are mosquitoes in Alaska and mosquitoes in Florida. If you switched the two they probably wouldn't make it with the drastic change all at once. If you switched a thousand of each some might make it or maybe their genetics would. It is conceivable in my mind anyways that if you continually moved insects, bees particularly that they would adapt. Not so much for yours and mine. There has to be some technique in this line of business that increases your chance of success. I would not attempt it. Maybe you wouldn't but others have.


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## Metropropolis

deknow said:


> what else do you think I should do?


Please do not take criticism of a movement as criticism you - You have done so much, and deserve nothing but credit.

It is not my place to criticize anything you've done - Only to offer appreciation for all that you've learned and shared.

I do hope the movement eventually comes to a general agreement as to what constitutes TF beekeeping. Currently there seems to be a lot of noise and misunderstanding generated by eager participants who emphasize ideology over experience.

Dismiss this statement if it is unhelpful.


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## sqkcrk

Solomon Parker said:


> Bees aren't meant to survive everywhere. Hives are not meant to move. They're meant to survive in one place.


Sorry Solomon. This just struck me similar to the idea that if man were meant to fly he would have wings.


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## sqkcrk

Solomon Parker said:


> They're not adapted for it. They're not "meant" to move.


Okay, I get your point. It's just that it's contrary to my experience. There is almost nothing in the moving of hives of bees which I can point to that is detrimental to those hives. Sometimes some queens are lost for some reason. But the vast majority are fine.

I guess you wouldn't buy queens from far away then?


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## Riskybizz

Metropropolis

It would be my understanding that your reference to a so called “movement” is most applicable to this local thread in which it is contained, and not necessarily associated with a larger national movement of treatment free beekeepers here and elsewhere. Surely within the greater scope of a treatment free philosophy you will find numerous schools of thought and beliefs that are well thought out and recognized. My point is that contrary to what a few individuals have chosen to define on a website involving 2600 active members does not necessarily encompass the overall beliefs of many thousands of very successful beekeepers who find not the time or the desire to profess their personal beliefs on a website. As far as any sort of general agreement about what constitutes “treatment free beekeeping’ good luck with that. Remember this is beekeeping. I personally try to stay well read, open minded, and well informed in those areas that interest me. I do not use any treatments of any kind as a personal choice because it currently works for me, but I would not flip out emotionally if I chose to experiment with a form of treatment if I felt the need arose. I do enjoy the numerous posts from many of the well respected beekeepers here that didn’t just fall off the turnip truck yesterday. I have always felt that we all have something to learn by listening to others in a democratic forum established for a common good to procreate the art of keeping bees in a healthy environment.


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## d.frizzell

Riskybizz said:


> Metropropolis
> 
> I do enjoy the numerous posts from many of the well respected beekeepers here that didn’t just fall off the turnip truck yesterday.


So do I which is why I keep coming back to read this thread, I try to ignore the rest of the "fluff". LOL


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## Oldtimer

deknow said:


> ...and the industry is best served by having customers be misinformed?


Let's just say that it's better to focus on positives, rather than attempt to generate sales by badmouthing everybody else.

Again, negative advertising is bad for an industry. I know this from a totally different industry I was in where negative advertising "wars" went on, and the general public eventually came to have a bad feeling about the whole industry.

If somebody is running around telling everyone they can, that just about all honey, (except their own, of course), is adulterated with sugar, has poison in it, is made by bees that aren't treated right, etc. It is just a matter of time till the general public take a dim view on all honey in general, as the word and the gossip is passed around, and twisted/exaggerated/misunderstood, in the process.

What if somebody was going around saying, don't buy Deans honey. He doesn't control disease and large numbers of his hives die. A horrible death for the bees. Get my honey, I care for my bees. 

Would not telling the public you lose a lot of hives mean they are misinformed? Or have you just chosen to leave out the negatives.

Now that's hypothetical, but, get my point? Negative advertising is a bad thing.


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## deknow

Acebird said:


> Feeding with honey supers on is not a crime. Selling the honey as honey is. I am not going to say this happens but it is possible that the honey in these supers is used for feed to expand other hives.


...the national honey board assures us that honey is not adulterated after it is extracted from the comb....nothing about before it is extracted!

deknow


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## Acebird

Are you kidding me!


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## Oldtimer

Also, it is likely possible to find a way to badmouth just about any food that we can buy, be it almonds, meat, bread, whatever. Honey is just another product of many. At this time the general public see honey as "good", largely down to a romantic view of a beehive in a scenic, natural setting, hard at work visiting flowers. This view has been actively propogated by beekeepers of the past, but with enough bad publicity there is no guarantee the public will keep this view.


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## Oldtimer

Solomon Parker said:


> Hives are not meant to move. They're meant to survive in one place.


Are you kidding me?


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## deknow

Oldtimer said:


> Also, it is likely possible to find a way to badmouth just about any food that we can buy, be it almonds, meat, bread, whatever. Honey is just another product of many. At this time the general public see honey as "good", largely down to a romantic view of a beehive in a scenic, natural setting, hard at work visiting flowers. This view has been actively propogated by beekeepers of the past, but with enough bad publicity there is no guarantee the public will keep this view.


...and those of us who actually live up to the "romantic view of a beehive", and who make sacrifices to do so, we should let the "industry" bank on our reputation? ...should continue to mislead our customers into believing what they do and what we do is the same? 
News flash....for those of us not making a living in pollination, people who buy honey pay our bills (and the bills of our suppliers). I treat my customers (be they at the farmers market, over the internet, or through a large retail chain) with respect. I don't do business with people who willfully mislead me to make a buck....how you treat your customers is your business, but I will do my best to educate my customers the best I can. I tell them the truth.

As I tried to point out earlier, it's only the bad actors that benefit from the good reputation of honey in general, and the misconception by the public of where it comes from.

deknow


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## Oldtimer

deknow said:


> but I will do my best to educate my customers the best I can. I tell them the truth.
> deknow


But does that extend to telling them the truth about your own business? I doubt it. IE, that along with not using chemicals, you lose a lot of hives, and the bees suffer in a slowly dwindling hive and eventually die a horrible death. And you allow that to happen, something I wouldn't even want to witness.

Once you've put that on your label, (the public should be educated, right?) then you can feel free to continue your attacks on others. Long as they are true that is, there are some beekeepers selling honey tested as perfectly good, who have been caught up in your bad publicity.


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## deknow

Oldtimer said:


> But does that extend to telling them the truth about your own business? I doubt it. IE, that along with not using chemicals, you lose a lot of hives, and the bees suffer in a slowly dwindling hive and eventually die a horrible death. And you allow that to happen, something I wouldn't even want to witness.


oh please.....on any unselfish level, the life of a bee hive is morally equivalent to the life of an ant colony....that any homeowner would poison, any farmer or gardener would plow under, and no one would mourn.
But that aside, yes, I do tell my customers that we lose bees (as do our suppliers), as do all beekeeping operations large and small.



> Once you've put that on your label, (the public should be educated, right?) then you can feel free to continue your attacks on others. Long as they are true that is, there are some beekeepers selling honey tested as perfectly good, who have been caught up in your bad publicity.


1. there is only so much that can fit on a label...but folks that self identify as vegans who visit our table at the market (yes, this is a somewhat self selecting group....hardcore vegans don't even want to talk about honey) generally feel good about the honey (and often buy it).
2. a shirt that is made with slave labor can "test" the same as one produced by a free person being paid a reasonable salary. Two shampoos with equivilent ingredients can "test the same", yet one isn't tested on bunnies eyes.

If a beekeeper who's honey "tests perfectly good" wants to be part of an industry that values their honey the same as honey that doesn't, and doesn't do anything to distinguish their product from something that is not equivalent, then they get what they deserve. If I see two iphone cases on ebay, they have the same picture, and the same description, I'm going to by the cheaper one. If one has better specs and costs a little more, then I have a choice.

Anyone who's sales rely on their customers being misinformed is walking on eggshells...no matter how big the industry is.

deknow


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## deknow

Oldtimer said:


> Once you've put that on your label, (the public should be educated, right?) then you can feel free to continue your attacks on others. Long as they are true that is, there are some beekeepers selling honey tested as perfectly good, who have been caught up in your bad publicity.


I wasn't aware that I needed your permission to tell the truth...thanks for the heads up

deknow


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## Oldtimer

You don't need my permission. What I meant by feel free, was in good conscience, and honesty. After you've fully educated your customers since you are very passionate about that.


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## Oldtimer

deknow said:


> oh please.....on any unselfish level, the life of a bee hive is morally equivalent to the life of an ant colony....that any homeowner would poison, any farmer or gardener would plow under, and no one would mourn.
> 
> 
> If a beekeeper who's honey "tests perfectly good" wants to be part of an industry that values their honey the same as honey that doesn't, and doesn't do anything to distinguish their product from something that is not equivalent, then they get what they deserve.
> 
> deknow


OK, if that's your viewpoint, not much I can do.

But what goes around, comes around. The end result of negative advertising is that everybody suffers. Badmouthing others is good for a quick buck only.


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## squarepeg

Solomon Parker said:


> Hives don't move Mark. They don't. Swarms may go a couple miles, if that. They don't move 1000 miles in any direction in a year, much less 10. They are not migratory animals. You cannot expect them to be hunky dory if you move them to an entirely different climate all the time. They're not adapted for it. They're not "meant" to move.





squarepeg said:


> but then neither do they move their combs around, nor do they donate comb, brood, and resources to those that would have it. (and let's don't forget that wild bees aren't force fed a less than optimal diet).
> 
> are your manipulations any less invasive that trucking them around?


good evening sol.

promise i'm not trying to play gotcha here, but i have raised this question a time or two and no one has touched it yet.

the question is 'how benign (or not) to the colony is just the practice of keeping them in a hive?'

maybe a good topic for a new thread.......


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## Barry

Let's start new threads instead of keeping this one going.


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## squarepeg

acknowledged cap'm!


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## deknow

I generally don't like to post our powerpoint slides...they are just the outline for a talk, and are easy to misinterpret. This is a version of what we talk about to bee clubs when they want to hear about treatment free beekeeping. There is too much here for me to commit to answering every question, or clarify every point...it is generally done in 1.5 hours, but probably deserves 4.
http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.php/beekeeping/articles/103-a-work-in-progress
deknow


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## taydeko

Very nice, Dean!

One question. Your definitioin excludes feeding with sugar syrup. As a first year beekeeper this year, I had to feed a late summer cutout. I had no honey available for feeding, so of course I used sugar. My preference is to avoid feeding whenever possible and to feed honey, if necessary, but it just wasn't possible. I don't feel like I am breaking any treatment free standards by feeding these bees sugar syrup. Have I violated your principles by doing this?

Ted


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## deknow

We don't feed sugar. We recommend that a new package should be fed sugar...I would say the same for a late season cutout that needs food. We use honey for these things (packages this year each got a deep frame of honey), but unless you have your own honey to use, I don't recommend it.

Again, there are simply too many things that are only hinted at in the slides to address them all, or to address them in depth. ...my intention of posting it is mostly to show that in order to discuss what we are doing, you really need 4 hours...unless you can talk real fast  ...and that what we are talking about is far, far from "toss 'em in a box and leave 'em alone".

deknow

deknow


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## squarepeg

deknow said:


> I generally don't like to post our powerpoint slides...they are just the outline for a talk, and are easy to misinterpret. This is a version of what we talk about to bee clubs when they want to hear about treatment free beekeeping. There is too much here for me to commit to answering every question, or clarify every point...it is generally done in 1.5 hours, but probably deserves 4.
> http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.php/beekeeping/articles/103-a-work-in-progress
> deknow


perfect! thanks dean. and can i assume that most of the info is in your book as well?


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