# Custom Pollen Sub?



## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Over the years, I have been asked by some beekeepers about custom vitamin and mineral formulations to go with their pollen sub recipes. As the season winds down, I kick around new ideas, so I thought I would ask for everyone's input. So what do you think? I currently mix specific formulations, but is there a need for custom formulations for specific regions, time of year, conditions, etc.? 

As I see it the biggest challenge would be minimum batch size, simply for the time to formulate, mix, and so on. And, would beekeepers feel comfortable sharing their recipe "secrets" to formulate an additional ingredient? 

As always, thanks for your input!
Joe


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Tell me what you got Joe, I'm interested!


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Ian,

At this point I just have an idea... We have worked out the nutritional profile to match what is found in natural pollen or in some instances improve upon deficiencies, and that is what the "off the shelf" supplements are formulated to compliment. But, many beekeepers vary their sub recipes based on the time of year, feeding objective, ingredient prices and availability, or any host of other reasons.

It would be more of working with beekeepers on a one-on-one basis to formulate a diet for their "farm". I assume you use something similar in your cattle operation? However, I would like input from other beekeepers. What things should be considered, or what are some of the possible limitations?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

ya we do, but we work our supplements off the feed analysis. Dont suppose that is done with incoming pollen, other than by using assumed nutrition values.


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Seems like a major challenge in that you'd need to know the nutritional value of the incoming pollen which varies and often at fairly small spatial scales; variation in land use, landform and others contribute as do temporal shifts in seasonality, either natural or human influence on climate. I know of some studies that are underway where incoming pollen stores (quantity and quality) are or will be quantified in the Northern Plains. That kind of information would be useful provided we know enough about the nutritional needs of the bees at different times of the year (temporal change in physiological demands, etc) and how the landscape (or supplemental diet) meets (or not ) or misses those base requirements. Due to all the variations, providing the most nutritious food might be the safest route for supplemental feed? Joe, are there any negatives to feeding overly nutritious supplemental foods other than cost?


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Ian said:


> ya we do, but we work our supplements off the feed analysis. Dont suppose that is done with incoming pollen, other than by using assumed nutrition values.


Optimizing the pollen they bring in is a clever idea. No idea how to do it, but it seems like the logical first step$$. Do bees consume pollen stores ( bee bread) based on nutritional need and content?


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Ian,

Due to the cost involved for full spectrum analyses, we run composite pollen samples, meaning that we collect pollen samples for a period using a pollen trap and analyze the batch. It is a composite or mixture of many plants, just based on what I see from the many colors. More trying to hit an average and improve where we can based on research and to formulate a diet based on what is generally consumed.

Chip,

Exactly, I am not sure it is necessary to hit a specific window, but rather the long term average as pollen is also stored and consumed over time. What do you mean by "overly nutritious"? We shoot for optimal, that way the bees regulate their needs by increasing or decreasing consumption to meet their energy requirements as most food consumption is driven by energy requirements at that point in time. It is sort of like us, I tend to eat a little more when I am out pulling honey for the week, but then cut back again when my physical activity falls back. 

Mbeck,

I am thinking more along the lines of optimizing pollen subs. Consumption is based on energy needs. Organisms are not able to discern small nutritional differences in a diet for most nutrients. This changes when large deficiencies arise and things get really out of whack.

Appreciate all the input!


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Joe, by overly nutritious I mean pollen or a sub that has specific amino acids, vitamins, etc that exceed the nutritional requirements of the bees for any given time period of need. Since pollen is stored in the comb, excess nutrients are stored for another day. Question was does the same hold true for supplemental feed. If consumed right away, would overly nutritious feed (contains more nutrients than needed) be of benefit, pass less efficiently through the GI track, etc. I always thought pollen sub wasn't stored in the comb but I may be wrong.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Chip, I see. To me, overly nutritious seems confusing. May I suggest overly nutritious means "unbalanced", for most circumstances? Granted different circumstances require slightly different diets. The digestive system is like a production line. Henry Ford could crank out a car about every 90 minutes or so. He developed the assembly line. All the parts flowed into the system. The output could be increased to a point by increasing the flow rate of incoming parts. The flow rate for the incoming parts still had to be synchronized to match the output. Too many or too few parts caused a backup or slowdown on the line.

Nutrition is similar. If a diet is balanced, the colony can increase or decrease their consumption rate depending on needs. If specific nutrients are too high or too low relative to the overall diet, this creates a backup in the system, similar to the assembly line.

My initial idea what to more closely formulate a diet to go with each beekeepers available/preferred ingredients to make the diet more usable and efficient.

I have not seen bees store wet sub, but will store dry sub they forage on.


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

I've seen them store dry sub too. Problem with bees is that they are opportunistic and gather and store pollen that can be nutritionally poor. Bees here gather pollen that is nutritionally poor from wind-pollinated crops like corn because it is highly available. Given the changes in our modern landscape, I suspect supplemental feeding will become even more important over time to improve food quality and provide balanced nutrition. Any thoughts about dry versus feeding moist patties? Seems it would be beneficial to get some higher quality pollen in the comb in areas where poor quality pollen is in greater abundance. I worry a bit about the quality of the food in the hive when it's too cold or otherwise not possible to crack the lids and add supplemental food. Probably always more questions than answers! Good luck with your project.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Thanks Chip!

It may be just personal preference, but I prefer feeding patties over dry feeding. With patties, I know the nutrients are in the hive, and that is the best I can do.


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Me too but the ability to improve the nutritional quality of stored reserves within the hive would be beneficial, especially in geographic areas where the nutritional quality of incoming pollen is poor. Not arguing against in-hive feeding; just suggesting a need to improve the nutritional quality of stored food reserves in the comb. Back in the days when habitat wasn't as limiting, there were sufficient floral resources to meet the needs of most managed bee colonies. The situation has changed and it doesn't appear to be improving. Maybe we should think of additional mitigation opportunities.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I am confused, If a human works harder, he is hungrier than normal, and eats more. A human can sense caloric shortcomings, and compensate. I would assume a bee can do the same. The question becomes, can a human, or bee, sense nutritional shortcomings and compensate? I have heard rumors/hypothesis that infant humans MAY have he ability to sense nutritional shortcomings, and shift their diet by changing what tastes good. From all of the anecdotal evidence of bees collecting inferior pollen, my guess would be that they can not sense shortcomings. 

Therefore, the question of "overly nutritious" does make sense. Any formula that provides more than is needed(as a whole) would be wasted if the bee can not sense that it's requirements have be fulfilled, and reduce it's intake of formula.

Or i could just be crazy....


Crazy Roland


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Mr. Crazy Roland! Where was your dusty bemused old farmer persona in that last post? You may ruin your reputation.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Roland,

Perhaps we are talking about two different things? If an animal works harder, their metabolism speeds up, food is digested and utilized faster, they are hungrier and eat more. This is different from being able to discern the nutritional quality of what they are eating. Most organisms simply eat to survive as food is seldom overly abundant.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Roland said:


> From all of the anecdotal evidence of bees collecting inferior pollen, my guess would be that they can not sense shortcomings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Buckwheat has an inferiour pollen, and beekeepers are hard pressed to get them to work Buckwheat fields with anything else blooming around. I do believe bees target what they need. Ever see a few bees scrounging around in your ash pile all summer?

Ihave bees around corn, and I have never seen them work corn... I have seen them fly over, but never working it...
Just because its there doesnt mean they are working it. If canola is blooming, they are going there for the reasons Crazy Roland stated


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

I used to rarely see bees on corn but now they commonly work corn here except in locations where other floral sources exist. We've lost so much good forage area that 'choices' of where and what to forage upon are limited. Each year, we put out cracked corn for upland game birds that feed in the yard and the bees pack up the powder and haul it back to their hives. I don't think the bees are making a decision about a potential pollen source based on nutritional needs but I do not know that for certain. A generalized pollinator would be expected to forage on a great diversity of plants and for very different reasons (pollen, nectar-even secretions for propolis, etc.

One thing for sure--beekeeping is a lot more complex than it used to be!


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Chip,

Yes, food sources are certainly more and more limited, which is why supplemental nutrition is increasingly important.

Ian operates a nice beef cattle operation and has some really nice looking stock. I assume he raises pasture, grain, hay, and perhaps silage for his cattle. He then runs the nutritional analyses on the available food supply for the farm and consults his nutritionist/feed rep. The nutritionist looks at the analyses and says based on what we think the ideal diet should be this is the supplement I am formulating for your herd based on their requirements. Then Ian rations out the diet, but does not place all feed ingredients in the pen for Ad libitum consumption. Ian, please correct me if I am wrong. 

Does this seem like a reasonable approach to beekeeping and formulating pollen supplements, especially in resource deprived areas?


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

I understand and support the concept and agree that supplemental feeding is important now and that it will become increasingly important over time. That said, knowledge of the quantity and quality of incoming pollen is logically a requisite for success. I come from a habitat perspective and the habitat isn't as bee-friendly as it used to be in most locations. Ian runs a top notch operation and he has more control over his forage areas than your average commercial beekeeper. That doesn't mean that he has no need for supplemental feed to improve the nutritional health of his bees. My only point is that it is daunting because the quantity, nutritional quality, and composition of floral species changes from one pollen-trap to another due to changes in plant phenology, where desirable plant are in relation to hives, etc. it would seem that pollen trap samples would need to be composited and sampled in relation to their availability to keep analytical costs down and represent the mean nutrition thje natural setting provides. If I understand your objective, you would then shoot to produce a mix to provide any deficiencies? I'm still not clear why you just couldn't simply provide a feed that exceeds the dietary demand and call it good. In any event it would make an interesting block when you evaluate the effectiveness of your food. Have evaluation colonies that receive: 1. Status quo, 2. 'Custom' feed for a specific area you blend (i. e . Balanced or optimized based on pollen trap data) and 3. A mix that far exceeds the nutritional needs of the bees (i.e. Unbalanced). Success could be evaluated using various health measures. In Ian's case, that might be the number and strength of surviving colonies within each treatment block.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Chip, you are correct, looking at each colony would be cost prohibitive, but a general area is doable. What I am suggesting is looking more at the diet fed itself. Many beekeepers use recipes that are local based on what ingredients are available or preferred. However, I am suggesting that consultation on the diet may be of benefit to the beekeeper and the bees.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JSL said:


> Chip,
> 
> Yes, food sources are certainly more and more limited, which is why supplemental nutrition is increasingly important.
> 
> ...


Absolutely, your right on the money Joe. It is the way I think about feeding bees too. 
And I do agree with Chip, the bees will bring inferior pollen in but I do believe it is hard wired into the bees to bring the most nutritious, or gather whatever then need. But I think what I am talking about is protein %, and what Chip is referring to is the bees targeting feed to make up a lack or deficiencies in the pollen. Are you refering to Vitamins and minerals Chip? or proteins ?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Chip Euliss said:


> I'm still not clear why you just couldn't simply provide a feed that exceeds the dietary demand and call it good.


Exactly what I think. And probably not that simple... What are we missing here Joe?


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Ian,

I would disagree, as I do not know of evidence to support bees being able to discern protein and nutrient levels effectively in pollen. Nectar is a different story as bees are very good at discerning sugar concentrations.

I do agree, formulating a nutritious well balanced diet is the best approach, but again, I think many beekeepers could really use some help in looking at the numbers, if you will. This is routine for other animal disciplines, you analyze and then work with nutrient levels. However, with beekeeping, I often see beekeepers adding ingredients without knowing the baseline numbers or having a true understanding of what is being added. This is not meant as a criticism, but rather an observation and seeing there is room for improvement. To me it just seems like second nature as I helped my Dad mix research diets as a kid, so why not apply it to bees?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JSL said:


> Ian,
> 
> I would disagree, as I do not know of evidence to support bees being able to discern protein and nutrient levels effectively in pollen. Nectar is a different story as bees are very good at discerning sugar concentrations.


I always assumed the reason why bees fly over Buckwheat to anything else flowering was because of the poor pollen quality. Same with Blueberries.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JSL said:


> I think many beekeepers could really use some help in looking at the numbers, if you will.


For cattle, we have the animals dietary need, we test our feed and supplement accordingly. 
Vitamins, Mineral, Energy, Protein, Roughage .

What exactly are the honeybees dietary needs?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Ian said:


> What exactly are the honeybees dietary needs?


There's the million dollar question.


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

I'm actually thinking mostly the amino acid composition of specific plant pollens. Some are poor (like buckwheat), others are really poor (like corn and other wind-pollinated plants) and some are excellent. The literature suggests that bees that have access to many different flowering plants receive a more balanced diet and the healthier diet confers improved health. Our prairie once provided great floral diversity and that's why the northern prairies have been such an important geographic area for bees and beekeepers. Now, we're loosing that diversity due to increased habitat fragmentation, clean farming, etc. I'm not criticizing, just stating that the net impact has reduced the value of contemporary landscapes for all pollinators. I feed my bees patties and I also provide dry feed as well. The story is more complex because quality pollen is required all season long but relatively few apiary locations provide a sequential supply of pollen like natural phenological events do in less disturbed landscapes. Consequentially, in North Dakota (other places too) I'm more concerned with the quality (mostly amino acids) of the pollen stores in the hives that my bees rely on from the last time I feed them until the first time they get patties in California when they are prepared for almond pollination. If our modern landscapes don't provide quality food in the comb, I'd like to find a way to improve the quality of those stores artificially. I know nothing of digestive efficiency in our bees but feeding the very best quality food (especially dry) available would be a good strategy until we know more than we do now.


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Keith Jarrett said:


> There's the million dollar question.


Yes sir!!


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

I agree with Joe that bees bring in junk pollen, probably an adaptive strategy of an animal that is a generalized pollinator. We see (and smell) pollen from worm wood, dust from cracked corn, etc in pollen traps-if it's there in abundance (relative to other sources), bees will haul it to the hive. The trick is to have as many alternate species of pollen available which is getting less common all the time; artificial feeding is needed to support bees at the levels required today for pollination, etc.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> There's the million dollar question.


so if we dont know the diet of the animal we are trying to target... then the best thing we can do is give them everything they need, especially protein, and call it good. Right Joe?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Chip Euliss said:


> bees bring in junk pollen, probably an adaptive strategy of an animal that is a generalized pollinator.


When open feeding dry supplement, why is it that they will forage more so on the formulated supplement over the soyflour everytime? For them to prefer a certain protien supplement over another, they have to be recognizing its nutritional value., right?


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Ian said:


> When open feeding dry supplement, why is it that they will forage more so on the formulated supplement over the soyflour everytime? For them to prefer a certain protien supplement over another, they have to be recognizing its nutritional value., right?


Good question and one for which I have no explanation. Particle size may have to do with it but I really don't know. I buy bags of dry feed and dump it in 2 feeders. When I yard up 800 or so hives in the pasture after the first hard freeze, the bees will use about 100 lbs every week of good flying weather. I don't mix my own feed; I buy it in dry bags. My strategy has been to buy the highest quality (aa) they have at the time


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Chip Euliss said:


> When I yard up 800 or so hives in the pasture after the first hard freeze, the bees will use about 100 lbs every week of good flying weather.


I have tried to dry feed in the fall, but the bees are not interested at all. But the bees will bring pollen in from Alfalfa right til freeze up. So... if they have the choice between the dry feed and the alfalfa pollen, and the seem to be choosing alfalfa everytime, then is that not a choice due to nutritional value?


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Interesting food for thought but probably has less to do with nutritional differences and more to of with what the bees perceive as available. A natural flower, and especially one that provides nectar (which bees if seek), is likely more attractive than sub in a feeder. The pasture I use to fall-stage my bees is near alfalfa but it's only a few acres. I'm sure it gets used by the bees but the sub gets used too, maybe because there are so many bees in relation to the size of the alfalfa field. 

Have you had a killing frost yet ? We had a light one that burned a few garden plants but the bee forage plants are still going strong. I usually yard them here for fall feeding / meds but I'm doing that in individual bee yards because the forecast for the next week to 10 days is more like summer than fall. Bees are bringing in lots of pollen right now.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We all seem to agree that bees perform best when their nutritional needs are met. The first step would be , as kieth pointed out, determine those needs. The second step would be to answer confirm the statement by JSL: "I do not know of evidence to support bees being able to discern protein and nutrient levels effectively in pollen". Until both are resolved, we are just pissin' in the wind. 

What will it take to get these issues resolved?

Ian, if your buckwheat does not produce nectar(what we planted did not), I would blame that on their lack of intrest

Oh, and sorry for the wrong persona, must have put on the wrong hat. It's legal to have multiple personalities when crazy.

Crazy Roland


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Ian said:


> What exactly are the honeybees dietary needs?


It's a secret! 
:shhhh:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Roland said:


> Until both are resolved, we are just pissin' in the wind.
> 
> Crazy Roland


this next spring, set out two different protein supplements. If the bees can decide which protein supplement is providing them with more nutrition, then I assume they can in pollen as well.


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Ian said:


> I have tried to dry feed in the fall, but the bees are not interested at all. But the bees will bring pollen in from Alfalfa right til freeze up. So... if they have the choice between the dry feed and the alfalfa pollen, and the seem to be choosing alfalfa everytime, then is that not a choice due to nutritional value?


So you got me thinking.... Another possibility is that certain plants will emit an attractant to help ensure their flowers are pollinated. Don't know if that is the situation for alfalfa but we do know that it requires a pollinator. I retired this past spring so don't have easy access to my files but I seem to recall a credible reference for our bees not selecting pollen based on nutrition like many other animals do (like deer or even ducks)--just can't remember the reference; getting old I guess. I did do a search but didn't find it and now it's time to hit the hay--busy day tomorrow. I did find an interesting CAP article that touches on much of our discussion in this thread. It can be accessed at: http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/caparticle10.html

The article summarizes the nutritional requirements of bees based on deGroot's work from the 50's. We need updated information.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Wow, great discussion!

We are getting a better handle on honey bee dietary needs using techniques developed by other animal disciplines. That is why I am asking the question... If we know what an appropriate range is for the bees and know what the forage is providing, then why not work through the numbers when formulating. It is better than flying blind.

Chip you are very insightful! Yes, there is more to the attractiveness of certain plants/pollen than nutritional value. Bees are cuing in on odor and sugars in pollen. Some plants produce odors/compounds that are more salient/attractive to bees than others. This takes advantage of bees highly attuned olfactory system. But I do not know of a system that allows animals to differentiate nutrients.

Ian, you mentioned that relative attractiveness of mixed subs over soy. Again this may be due more to olfactory cues than nutritional. There may be a taste element as well. Odors are complex blends of compounds, which bees are very good at sensing, think floral odors here. Blended subs produce a more complex odor mixture and cover more compounds. Also, soy is not really attractive by itself. Just for fun, set out a pile of soy flour and corn flour and see what the bees like better. Most of the time, corn flour wins this taste test. It is not that corn is better or worse. Corn is about 8% protein, and soy is about 45% protein. Other nutrients vary too, but look at the color and smell of corn. We can sense slight differences, but imagine what this is like to the bees!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

JSL said:


> The digestive system is like a production line. Henry Ford could crank out a car about every 90 minutes or so. He developed the assembly line. All the parts flowed into the system. The output could be increased to a point by increasing the flow rate of incoming parts. The flow rate for the incoming parts still had to be synchronized to match the output. Too many or too few parts caused a backup or slowdown on the line.


I do not think the comparison ends there. Continue the thought to the modern day assembly line. Parts are not even made by the car manufacturer but are sourced from a large variety of manufacturers with widely varying degrees of quality. Parts independently manufactured sacrifice quality in regard to the final product. significantly.

In short individual parts that never work together optimally. It produces the Ford in comparison to the Rolls Royce. Which by comparison produces a big chunk of scrap metal. 

His method did go along way to standardizing components. in comparison to nutritional supplements that would be availability of ingredients. So you may have a longer list of ingredients that can be used. but do they add any benefit? Today you may be able to scavenge a part for any given vehicle from dozens of other makes and models. but none are any where near as reliable as having a part custom made for your vehicle. I was talking to a mechanic yesterday that has a machine that will true the brake rotors on a vehicle while the rotors are mounted on the vehicle. it trues the rotors to the very bearings holding that hub. Big difference than a one rotor bearing and hub fits all. It takes any random combination and then causes them to function to a much higher level. In effect making them one complete, efficient and custom unit. It is necessary to counter that independent unrelated effect of various parts.

Assembly lines may be fast and efficient but they do not produce a quality product. In part I see this thread addressing that issue. You can use the supplement that is made for anyone anywhere. Or you can take the time and effort to finely tune a supplement for your bees where they are and what they have available. The batch size runs counter to that though. I want to make custom one of a kind vehicles in large volumes. They don't mix. Custom one of a kind formulas are made in the kitchen of a beekeeper. what about consultation on how to formulate them? You do not have to work out the manufacturing cost or batch size and beekeepers still get a more highly reliable recipe.


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Joe, how difficult would it be to get a highly desirable scent (e.g. honey) in a nutritious sub for dry feed applications? I remain concerned about nutrient quality inside the hive and would like to improve the quality of foods stored in the comb at apiaries in poor sites. In many locations here, the honey crop is made from a handful of plants that bloom later or are available later in the season and many of the sites are dominated by plants that produce poor quality pollen. Pulling supers to get a patty would be a killer but improving the nutritional health of the bees within the season would yield benefits beyond just the honey crop. This time of year, I think about the brood food fed for the larvae that will be the winter bees that carry the hive into the next spring or tour of duty (CA almond pollination).


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Joe,

I know this has been brought up in past threads. But, with other animals platability plays a big factor in feed consumption. Would adding sugar increase palatability? Which would/could result in increased consumption of all nutrients.

Tom


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JSL said:


> Ian, you mentioned that relative attractiveness of mixed subs over soy. ....Just for fun, set out a pile of soy flour and corn flour and see what the bees like better. Most of the time, corn flour wins this taste test. It is not that corn is better or worse. Corn is about 8% protein, and soy is about 45% protein.



Wow, I can not believe you two don't believe bees recognize the difference in pollen nutritional values. It is something I have just assumed to believe ever since I started beekeeping, and I have always based my hives foraging habits on such. This discussion has also gotten me thinking... and I am totally going to test out the "soy flour and corn flour" open feeding experiment to test/confirm your belief. Because I am also going to run a "corn flour Bee pro" feed experiment to confirm my belief that they will choose the higher quality feed supplement...because they will, you know...lol I see it every spring!

Why would the bees forage on the corn flour with only 8% protein concentration where as they can get a fully balance AA BeePro diet? My assumption only follows commons sense. Why would they bring in blueberry pollen, when willow is also available? Because they will bring in that willow most of the time if given the choice.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I think the willow is easier to forage for honeybees than blueberry.

Tom


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

We have a type of bush here with tiny white flowers on it. when it is producing nectar it will be crawling with bees while everything else in the area is ignored. Now this tells me it is obviously preferred by the bees. Why it is preferred I cannot say. is this particular nectar and pollen more nutritious? or is more like candy to the bees?

I tend to agree that bees know what they need and will forge for it, If it is available. I also tend to think that bees will forage the best they can. but I do not believe that the best they have is the best.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Chip,

Smell some freshly collected pollen, it is a HIGHLY complex mixture of floral odors and very attractive to honey bees. Drop a few pellets of fresh pollen in a hive and watch the bee's attraction to it. The pollen pellets also contain some nectar that has floral odors too. I am not sure about working an odor into dry sub. It is certainly feasible, but finding the primary attractive odorants is the key. 

Tom,

Absolutely, sugar is a great stimulant/attractant to bees.

Ian,

You are correct, it is common sense that animals would instinctively "choose" the more nutritional diet, but it is not that simple. One, they do not have the sensory mechanisms by which to make the decision. There are a very limited number of different taste/sensory elements that bees and animals can detect. With certain parameters, say sweet, honey bees are very good at discerning sugar concentrations and often go for more sugar. But what about protein, how would they sense that? In the limited number of discernible tastes, some do drive consumption, but odors also play a key role in decision making, perhaps more than we know. I do not know why, but corn products, be it simple corn flour, or corn gluten flour are very attractive to bees. But keep in mind, when comparing a simple substance such as corn flour to a manufactured diet, there may be other components in the manufactured diet that serve as attractants other than nutritional cues. 

There is a large body of research that looks at honey bee foraging behavior and preference, perhaps a good winter time reading project? This may be a dangerous comparison, but humans are relatively smart when it comes to intelligence, but we often make poor nutritional decisions in terms of a balanced diet. Why is this? Again, we are not really able to discern "quality", but we have a limited number of highly desirable tastes that we really like, fats, salts, sugars, etc. Food companies know this and play to our weaknesses when designing drinks and foods. We can make nutritionally balanced diets for the bees, but if it doesn't look, smell and taste good, they will not consume as well as something they are more attracted to.

Sorry for the wordy reply!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

JSL said:


> 1. honey bees are very good at discerning sugar concentrations and often go for more sugar. But what about protein, how would they sense that?
> 
> 2. humans are relatively smart when it comes to intelligence, but we often make poor nutritional decisions in terms of a balanced diet. Why is this?
> 
> Sorry for the wordy reply!


1. Why would they need to? In other words what is the importance of protein in a bees diet? If it is reasonable to assume that bees will favor foraging what is best for them. and that bees will select more sugar over anything else. how important then is protein? I am seriously interest in a more complete understanding of a bees protein needs. I would think they are not that high.

2. I believe in large becasue we can be. I do not think what drives our nutritional choices in lives that are comparably leisure to that of animals contending with the environment are comparable. We are kept artificial warm and cool. bees are not. We avoid extremes bees cannot they must biologically content with the extremes.

Recently I have seen information from two different sources that would indicate significantly different dietary choices even in people. and the more extreme there exposure to the elements the more extreme there choices become.

A. from the current popular programs of the Amish. I refer to a comment that one cast member made about how the "English" could not tolerate their diet. such as drinking raw milk. it woudl make others not used to it sick. they considered others weak as a result.

B. In other programs currently about living in remote Alaska. Individuals commonly refer to there preference for fats and internal organs in their diet. So much so that they nearly constantly crave them.

I consider both examples of dietary differences made as a person is further and further removed from modern day conveniences. I consider the craving for fat a complete departure from the norm. When was the last time you had a hankering for a spoon full of lard?

In short I say we tend to make poor dietary choices because we can. Our bodies are not taxed to the point it dictates our nutritional cravings.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> In other words what is the importance of protein in a bees diet?

The Bee Nutrition page from the University of Georgia linked in post #38 of this thread is a good place to start in understanding the role of protein in honeybee diets. Protein is _imperative _to raising brood.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

A high quality feed is your best bet, trying to formulate a feed for local conditions is a moving target. What's blooming today may not be blooming tomorrow. Over the last few years I've added a variety of oil and a little lemongrass oil to my dry feed and it turns into a collecting frenzy they pack it away like pollen. When we put patties on the bees we dust then with soy flour and it is a black cloud of bees rolling in it. Poor pollen is not bad for bees they just have to eat more of it to get the effect of a higher quality pollen. We have fed protein supplement all summer and I have noticed more stored pollen in the comb. It's the X factor as Randy puts it that has been the holy Grail.
View attachment 13793
the pictures just don't do it justice.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

David,

I agree, looking at a short time frame is pretty tough, but longer term averages of composite pollen samples is more manageable. Also formulating the diet around the bulk ingredients helps too. Some beekeepers use soy, yeast, soy isolate, corn gluten, or other products as their base. All of which provide a base and a unique blend of nutrients that can then be rounded out by supplements.

I disagree with Randy's characterization of the "X'factor" as I think it leads beekeepers to believe there is one magical ingredient. Nutrition is about nutrients working in unison to provide a well rounded diet. It is seldom one thing that makes it all work. However his recent pollen sub trials is an excellent demonstration that feeding sub has a positive effect of brood production. All subs worked reasonably well, but this may have been confounded by the availability of natural pollen during the trial, but that is real world application!

The essential oils and oils/fats in the dry feed are a good idea for enhancing the attractiveness. The essential oils play to the bee's inherent attractiveness to floral odors and the fats/oils are also an attractive nutrient. 

I am uncertain of what you mean by poor pollen and consuming more to get the same effect? If it is balanced, but lower overall in nutrient values, then your statement is correct, but if you mean deficient in certain nutrients, then your statement does not hold true. Balance is key, going back to the assembly line analogy, as the limiting nutrients slow down the entire utilization process and the excess nutrients back up on the line. If a diet is too unbalanced animals actually starve, as they are unable to effectively utilize the excess nutrients while "waiting" for the limiting nutrients to come along and finish the process.

Thanks again to everyone for all of your input!


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Other than saving on labor, what are the reasons for feeding dry supplement? Do beekeepers like to see the stored sub in the frames?


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

Almost 20 years ago I gave a talk on bee nutrition and suggested using higher quality ingredients and was told that it was unneeded and not cost effective. I see now they are common place. One ingredient that I've used for years is lecithin I noticed that Dadant is now putting it to their new mix ap 23.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

In most areas I feed wet and dry if I can't get back in time with more wet then they can use the stored dry sub. Bees like to forage there has been times when I was putting dry sub up a long canyon and when I got to the next drop a mile away the forgers where already coming in with loads of sub from the first drop. Right now they are blending the dry sub with a little tarweed, dove weed and bur pollen.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

David,

Do you use lecithin as a texturing agent or for a nutritive value?


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

Nutritional, Pollen has high lecithin content. Pollen is high in many nutritional ingredients not normally found subs just trying to think out side the box.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JSL said:


> Other than saving on labor, what are the reasons for feeding dry supplement? Do beekeepers like to see the stored sub in the frames?


This spring, before the natural pollen came out (very late spring) I had went through more than 15 bags of BeePro, SoyFlour from dry feeders. I fed the dry feed along side the patties in the hive. The do store the dry feed when excess comes in. 
Not only does it bring protein into the hives but it keeps the bees busy and out of the neighbours yards! lol


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Ian said:


> This spring, before the natural pollen came out (very late spring) I had went through more than 15 bags of BeePro, SoyFlour from dry feeders. I fed the dry feed along side the patties in the hive. The do store the dry feed when excess comes in.
> Not only does it bring protein into the hives but it keeps the bees busy and out of the neighbours yards! lol


Ian. Do you make your own feeders for dry sub? I have plastic ones I bought from Mann Lake but thought I might make a few extras out of wood


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JSL said:


> as the limiting nutrients slow down the entire utilization process and the excess nutrients back up on the line. If a diet is too unbalanced animals actually starve, as they are unable to effectively utilize the excess nutrients while "waiting" for the limiting nutrients to come along and finish the process.


Joe,
We nutrient test our crops for exactly that same reason. We will find the nutrient levels in the soil and then fertilize according to what the crop needs. We fertilize macro and micro nutrients. Fertilizer is expensive, so we apply nutrients to what is deficient and only to what they need, using the "maximum return scale" stratagy most years. Its important to know the nutrient levels in the soil because, as you eluded to, if the soil is deficient in one nutrient, the plant can only grow to its _first limiting factor_. 

But of course, when feeding honey bees, we only know one side of that equation... So this shot gun approach of feeding nutrients is out best strategy. If we had the honeybees dietary needs, then we would be able to match the pollen coming in to meet that diet. Right now, our strategy is analyzing the pollen coming in, and trying to provide a feed source to match it. Vitamins, Micro nutrients, where does all that fall in? I can tell you exactly with cattle and wheat, but not bees. Why is that?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Chip Euliss said:


> Ian. Do you make your own feeders for dry sub? I have plastic ones I bought from Mann Lake but thought I might make a few extras out of wood


Chip, the best feeder I have used so far is a hive top loaded with flour inside a tipped barrel

http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/IanSteppler/media/openfeed_zps8cd5ca01.jpg.html

I also use those blue open feeders for the Ultra bee. There is less waste with those feeders. In the barrels, they dust it up quite a bit!


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Ian said:


> Chip, the best feeder I have used so far is a hive top loaded with flour inside a tipped barrel
> 
> http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/IanSteppler/media/openfeed_zps8cd5ca01.jpg.html
> 
> ...


Thanks. I have the blue plastics and they work fine but are pretty expensive and the gophers use them for a free meal. Hadn't thought about a super in a tipped barrel but may give it a try while I'm working up a design for wood feeders.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Nothing cheaper and more convenient, the barrel shelters the feed from rain well. And they stay in the yards year round.


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## wglord (Nov 23, 2009)

Joe;

Good discussion. Let me throw this in. Honey bees are an introduced species, not native to this hemispshere. I am not saying they cannot meet their nutritional needs from the native flora as they clearly do and country-wide we have many introduced plant species too. Just a statement and I am curious if pollen subs are used in Europe?

I keep bees in central NC and have tried to use both dry and patty subs with little success. I find that we have natural pollen as soon as the bees need it and usually my bees will not take sub in either form. I end up scraping dried up patties off the top bars. No criticism, just an observation.
Bill


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Thanks David. Lecithin has been used as an additive in many food/feed industries. Sometimes for nutritive value, but more for texturing or material handling.

Ian, my only guess is that the beekeeping industry as a whole is relatively small and even though supplemental feed has been used for a long time it is only recently that the volume has increased. Still, bee feed is only a drop in the bucket relative to other industries. My interest stemmed from my Dad's interest. He spent 40 years as an animal research nutritionist. In a discussion one time, I asked him the same question, why does the beekeeping industry not seem to follow traditional nutrition practices. His response was simple, experience is expensive. My interpretation was that it costly to employ someone to do the research that has the background/experience to formulate feeds. Taking it one step further, WE beekeepers tend to be an independent lot of thinkers.

Bill, yes, pollen subs are used in Europe, or at least we ship supplements there. I think pollen subs have their place in beekeeping. For the backyard beekeeper, stocking densities are far less than the commercial industry. Perhaps at lower stocking densities, bees do just fine on their own and would only benefit marginally from supplemental feeding. But, commercial beekeeping is an entirely different beast all together!


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Thoughtful and civil discussion. Well done.

Observation without a clue to what it means if anything;
Different pollens are often being brought in at the same time. Those seem to be sorted by type as they are stored. One color in one cell, a different color in the next cell. I have never checked to see if the pollen colors vary by depth in a cell.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JSL said:


> My interpretation was that it costly to employ someone to do the research that has the background/experience to formulate feeds. Taking it one step further, WE beekeepers tend to be an independent lot of thinkers.


So what is actually done to determine the base line diet of an animal?


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Saltybee,

In looking at cells of pollen built on the glass in my observation hive I had as a kid, it looked like the bees packed in one pollen load at a time as I could see layering in the cells.

Ian,

For bees, we started by looking at composite pollen samples throughout the season in an attempt to find a long term average for nutrient values. Then the research experience kicked in to identify areas that could be improved over natural plant based diets using commercially available ingredients.


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