# Grafting ?



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

A lot of us new amateur queen breeder wannabees are all finding out that grafting is the easy part. Setting up a really good cell starter and a finisher is the challenge that we seem to be coming up against. 
There are many things I've read about cell starters and queen rearing. This article actually has some drawings that illustrate it out.
Maybe this might help a little. http://scientificbeekeeping.com/small-scale-queenrearing/


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

aunt betty said:


> A lot of us new amateur queen breeder wannabees are all finding out that grafting is the easy part. Setting up a really good cell starter and a finisher is the challenge that we seem to be coming up against.
> There are many things I've read about cell starters and queen rearing. This article actually has some drawings that illustrate it out.
> Maybe this might help a little. http://scientificbeekeeping.com/small-scale-queenrearing/


This may help as well
http://www.ohiostatebeekeepers.org/wp-content/pdf/books/Queen_Manual.pdf


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I graft right into cups that I take out of the bag 10 minutes before grafting.

It seems that trying to graft from the smallest, just hatched larva, is pretty hard because there isn't enough jelly to help get under them to lift them up. So I probably graft larva that are a bit older than what everyone says, but I get great queens. I always check the graft the day before they are supposed to be capped and if they are capped I adjust the hatch day to the day earlier because my grafted larva were a little older than what everyone says are ideal. I just try to get the same age larva so I don't have early and late hatches.

Around here I'm usually grafting when the outside temps are in the 40's to 60's so heat isn't the problem. I'm not particularly fast so the grafts are probably out of the hive for 30-45 minutes and I think that I've probably had times that exceeded an hour when I first started. I used to keep a damp towel over the grafts, but don't anymore.

The hard parts of queen rearing are the cell builder (like discussed above) and finding a good frame of larva to graft from. I use Michael Palmer's cell builder method now and I use a starter/finisher since I only raise one batch a year. It takes a lot of resources to make up cell builders and then mating nucs for even one batch. I go out a couple of days before grafting and try to find a good frame to graft from (new comb that isn't all the way drawn out is ideal, but hard to do). This year I put three frames of foundation in a strong hive a couple of weeks ahead of time hoping that they would have started drawing and she had started laying but cold rainy weather slowed things down. They had started drawing the comb, but eggs hadn't hatched yet.

I check my grafts after two days to get a feel for how may takes I have and then the day before capping (which many times is the day of capping) to see how many mating nucs I need. I also check the morning that I make up the nucs to verify how many cells I actually have. Don't ask why I do that, but it isn't fun to make up mating nucs in the mud and rain only to find that they tore a bunch of cells down at some point.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

What tools are you guys using? I cannot get a Chinese grafting tool to work and use a dental instrument. I find that it is sharp on the edges and so cuts right down the side of the cell. I find that the tip is sharp enough that if I even touch the bottom I lift the bottom of the old comb. I wonder if the sharp edges hurt the young larva causing me to run a poor %. I have been doing the Palmer starter / finisher, check for how many mating nucs I need on day 5 when I put the hive back together. 
BeeDEETEE we need to get together after I get a few queen castles freed up and you can show me how to get my percentage up.


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## fatshark (Jun 17, 2009)

A fine sable paintbrush works best for me ... probably 00 or 000. Lick it, slip it under the larva, lift, transfer and - with the larva in the new cup - twist or roll the paintbrush between your fingers to slide it out from under the larva.

To make things easier, use a sharp knife cut the cell depth down and/or split the cells for the donor larvae ... this makes getting the paintbrush in and under the larva much easier.


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## Ferg (Aug 7, 2015)

Thanks for all of the replies, I have alot to learn


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

minz said:


> BeeDEETEE we need to get together after I get a few queen castles freed up and you can show me how to get my percentage up.


MInz, I've move from Camas to Elmira, OR. It's not too much farther.

I have a bunch of the Chinese tools. I can get the larva on them, but have a problem getting them off without damage. So I use a metal tool that I bought from some beekeeping equipment place and I have ground it down to a smaller and sharper edge. My wife was a dental hygienist so I had access to a bunch of tools but the one that I bought has the right angle for me to use. Lower cell walls make all the difference to me.

I don't put the starter/finisher back together. I leave the old queen and three frames in a nuc to grow back to a full size hive. I just leave one cell in the builder to requeen. I've had problems with queen right finishers so I prefer to leave them queenless for the duration.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

beedeetee said:


> MInz, I've move from Camas to Elmira, OR. It's not too much farther.


I looked that up it is about 2.5 hrs from here, Camas I could have gone to for lunch. I think you should move back. Or you could take me bird hunting?



... So I use a metal tool that I bought from some beekeeping equipment place and I have ground it down to a smaller and sharper edge. [/QUOTE]

I was thinking of dulling mine since it is like a razor.



My wife was a dental hygienist so I had access to a bunch of tools but the one that I bought has the right angle for me to use. [/QUOTE]
mine was too that's where I got the tools.

I am going to look into the paint brush idea.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Spoke too soon on this last round. Found I was short a cell and found it laying under the frame (fell off). 
I took the new mating nucs to the remote yard and had to check the last round! Today was the earliest day on the calendar but I found eggs. I also found a queen cell with the end tore off the cell in upside down and dead. How often does that happen? If I had not put the cell protector on it would they have saved her?


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## souficoufi (Dec 10, 2016)

Bonjour
Est-ce qu'on peut mélanger les abeilles de 2 mini-nucs sans qu'il y a guerre entre les abeilles ?


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## Earthboy (May 16, 2007)

souficoufi said:


> Bonjour
> Est-ce qu'on peut mélanger les abeilles de 2 mini-nucs sans qu'il y a guerre entre les abeilles ?



Cela dépend de l'âge des abeilles infirmières. Si elles sont jeunes, c'est possible; S'ils sont trop vieux, les combiner avec un journal entre les deux.


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## souficoufi (Dec 10, 2016)

Earthboy said:


> Cela dépend de l'âge des abeilles infirmières. Si elles sont jeunes, c'est possible; S'ils sont trop vieux, les combiner avec un journal entre les deux.


Oh ! Merci beaucoup.Votre réponse est très utile.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I brought the mated queens and big, calm hives out of Estacada to the house to graft from. I picketed the queen yesterday at 3 pm if my math is correct I should be able to graft Friday late afternoon correct? Something new I am trying that the big boys do. Thinking of cutting down the comb with a hot knife to help my technique.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

souficoufi said:


> Bonjour
> Est-ce qu'on peut mélanger les abeilles de 2 mini-nucs sans qu'il y a guerre entre les abeilles ?


In the same situation here trying to strengthen mating nucs to, except full frame hives. I added a frame and did a shake of bees. I regretted it and then done some homework (backwards I know). Harry V’s method is what I should have done.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-194670.html
I do not know if you have mini frames ready to go or trying to add bees from full size frames to mini’s


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

aunt betty said:


> A lot of us new amateur queen breeder wannabees are all finding out that grafting is the easy part. Setting up a really good cell starter and a finisher is the challenge that we seem to be coming up against.
> There are many things I've read about cell starters and queen rearing. This article actually has some drawings that illustrate it out.
> Maybe this might help a little. http://scientificbeekeeping.com/small-scale-queenrearing/


This was my experience also.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

minz said:


> What tools are you guys using? I cannot get a Chinese grafting tool to work and use a dental instrument. I find that it is sharp on the edges and so cuts right down the side of the cell. I find that the tip is sharp enough that if I even touch the bottom I lift the bottom of the old comb. I wonder if the sharp edges hurt the young larva causing me to run a poor %. I have been doing the Palmer starter / finisher, check for how many mating nucs I need on day 5 when I put the hive back together.
> BeeDEETEE we need to get together after I get a few queen castles freed up and you can show me how to get my percentage up.


Did you try sanding them down with a fine grit sandpaper as suggested by many others? I kept a piece next to where I was grafting and could fine tune the tool to what I was grafting out of. I had some brand new comb and was even able to get larva out of those with a lot of sanding. I ended up using different Chinese grafting tools sanded to different flexibility for different combs. Good luck.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

dlbrightjr said:


> Did you try sanding them down with a fine grit sandpaper as suggested by many others?


No, can you find a thread and post it here? Is it actually called ‘tuning’ a grafting tool? Trying different search items and coming up empty. 
Thanks for your suggestion! Seems like everybody else loves the dang things I figured I must be doing something wrong.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

minz said:


> No, can you find a thread and post it here? Is it actually called ‘tuning’ a grafting tool? Trying different search items and coming up empty.
> Thanks for your suggestion! Seems like everybody else loves the dang things I figured I must be doing something wrong.


It's real simple. I think 600 grit is recommended. I think I had 400 grit and it worked just fine. Just lightly sand the tongue until you get the flexibility that is needed for the comb you are working. In some of the just drawn comb I had the tongue so thin I would have to make sure it was straight and not folding when I started it down in the comb. Not ideal, but, it worked.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Couple things that made grafting easier for me. If I'd gotten the cell builders and the weather right...lol
Bent the tip of the Chinese hive tool so it'd "scoop" better. Getting it to bend when you slide it down the cell wall is easier if you "train" the tool. 
Tore down cell walls on cells that had the right age larva.
Used one of them magnifying light loops.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

aunt betty said:


> Couple things that made grafting easier for me. If I'd gotten the cell builders and the weather right...lol
> Bent the tip of the Chinese hive tool so it'd "scoop" better. Getting it to bend when you slide it down the cell wall is easier if you "train" the tool.
> 
> 
> View attachment 33174


That was the ticket! I picketed the queen and was concerned the morning of that no eggs had hatched and thought maybe she got to the frame late.
Pulled the frame late and was going to run the hot knife down the frame but gave the 'broke in' grafting tool a try first. the tool is so large that I could not see the larva so I would push it down until I saw the RJ in the center move and then pulled it out. There was a lot of RJ on the tool and none left in the cell (like a bugger). About the only time I could see the larva is when it was placed in the center of the cup.
Thanks to all! now we wait.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Do you start with dry grafting cups or do you put some sort of liquid in the bottom of the cup before beginning grafting? If so what kind of liquid?
Every time I grafted the queen cup in one of the hives that is filled with RJ will help a lot. From this RJ cup, depending on how many cups I want to graft, a small amount of RJ is removed then put into the clean plastic cell cup. The more RJ you put in will help with the cell acceptance rate. 

How long do you keep the grafting frame out of the hive? Depending on how fast I can graft to finish the project it will be within half hour or so. Getting all of your supply line up before the graft will help when your only focus is on grafting.

Once you put the frame of grafts in the queen less hive, how long do you leave it there. some say 24 hours others 10 days
I use the starter and finisher in the same hive. After 24 hrs I will remove all unaccepted cell cups. Then allow the finisher to pull out and cap the cells. Key word is 24 hrs to find the accepted cells. 
After the cells are cap they will go into the small fridge homemade incubator. The finisher will be turn into a queen right state without taking more time than needed.

once grafted keep the frame covered with a damp towel, correct?
In the past I use to do this. Now improved on my process a bit. Instead of using a towel to cover the frame, now I use a wet paper towel to flip the cell cup over on the damp towel after each graft. Then transfer the grafted cells into the cell bar frame(s) once grafting is done. This will streamline the production process. 

Always graft the smallest larve you can find, correct?
Correct but if you messed up the bees know which one they pick to build the QCs. They always know which smallest
larva cell to pick out. This I don't worry much as the bees always know what they want.


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## souficoufi (Dec 10, 2016)

Que pensez-vous du "double greffage",on dit ça donne de grandes reines ?


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

i was 'practicing' the china graft tool i just got on empty comb. i cannot see how this is going to work. the tongue is way too stiff. will try to sanding. anybody have any good closeup videos of it in use?


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## Bob Anderson (Jun 13, 2014)

For me, the absolute critical thing in getting the chinese grafting tool to work is to only graft out of very old black brood comb. Only use comb from which numerous generations of workers have been raised - the more the better. Slide the grafting tool down the side of the cell and the tongue of the tool will follow the cell and go under the larva. The black hard comb makes that work. Don't modify the tool, change the comb you are using.


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## Ferg (Aug 7, 2015)

Thanks for the good information


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Either that or use the nicot laying cage system. I have good result on almost 101 cell of eggs in them.
No need to graft anymore. You just have to time it out to take out the cell cups out of the cage when the time is right to turn
them into QCs. I plan to have a very strong hive, 3 deep converted into one, for the cell finisher.


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## Ferg (Aug 7, 2015)

I am going to try the Nicot system next


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## souficoufi (Dec 10, 2016)

Essayez "plateau Cloake" ,bon finisseur et bon starter.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Some tips on the nicot is that you have to use the brown cell cups design for it. Other one will not fit
in the cell holes. Also, I've experimented a little using various method. Only the one with an old black
comb frame with the nicot cage embedded in the middle will work better for me. I got eggs after 2 days this way. Somehow
the smell of an old black comb stimulated the queen to lay. I have to use an electric hand held grinder to cut out the square on the plastic foundation.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

Bob Anderson said:


> For me, the absolute critical thing in getting the chinese grafting tool to work is to only graft out of very old black brood comb. Only use comb from which numerous generations of workers have been raised - the more the better. Slide the grafting tool down the side of the cell and the tongue of the tool will follow the cell and go under the larva. The black hard comb makes that work. Don't modify the tool, change the comb you are using.


thanks bob. i grafted yesterday. it was much easier with jelly in the cells!
so i check after ~6hrs and they started wax on all 12 of the cups i grafted into. is it common for them to start waxing on ALL cups? i cant imagine i would have 100% on first try. in fact, i hope i dont! i will check again tonight.


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## Bob Anderson (Jun 13, 2014)

Coal reaper: Looking at 6hrs is a bit too soon to declare any victory. There is usually a little wax on all cells early on but at 24 hrs you get a pretty good idea of what the 'take' is. You might loose a few more before day 5 when they are capped but generally get at day 5 what you see at 24hrs. Day 10 is another story. You can have anywhere from the same number as at day 5, or none...


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

COAL REAPER said:


> thanks bob. i grafted yesterday. it was much easier with jelly in the cells!
> so i check after ~6hrs and they started wax on all 12 of the cups i grafted into. is it common for them to start waxing on ALL cups? i cant imagine i would have 100% on first try. in fact, i hope i dont! i will check again tonight.


Wait one or two days. They seem to start wax on all cups, yes. If they've got a good amount of royal jelly on day two, it's a pretty good indication that they're takes. I usually check after 24 hours. But sometimes I don't. For instance I grafted Thursday and haven't checked yet. I will probably check tonight and make sure I didn't screw something up.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

ok good thanks guys. i am not ready to spare the resources to make that many nucs yet. gotta make a little more honey first.


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## Bob Anderson (Jun 13, 2014)

COAL REAPER said:


> not ready to spare the resources to make that many nucs yet.


Put two cells side by side into each nuc. That uses the cells and it is insurance against one of the cells being a dud.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

Bob Anderson said:


> Put two cells side by side into each nuc. That uses the cells and it is insurance against one of the cells being a dud.


i forgot i knew that! thanks for the reminder. i have an incubator at the ready also. trying to figure out if i want to mess with it just yet.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

30hrs. looking alright?


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

54hrs


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Looks fine to me!


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## brownkenvt (Dec 4, 2012)

I'm new to grafting also... and struggling to get my percentage up. 3 for 10, 0 for 10, 4 for 10. Pretty sure it's my struggle with eyesight and hand tremor, but I'm going to keep trying. Lately the cell builder has been building up 4 - 6 of my 10 by day 4 and 5. But then by day 10 they've torn them down and/or buried them in comb. What's with that action?


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## fatshark (Jun 17, 2009)

Are you feeding your cell builder or is there a good nectar flow?
If the larvae were damaged in grafting they are unlikely to be accepted at all ... you can tell the duds within 2-3 hours. 
If they bury them in comb and end up as sealed cells you can carefully cut around them and use them. They should be OK ... just a bit more difficult to work with.


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## brownkenvt (Dec 4, 2012)

fatshark said:


> Are you feeding your cell builder or is there a good nectar flow?
> If the larvae were damaged in grafting they are unlikely to be accepted at all ... you can tell the duds within 2-3 hours.
> If they bury them in comb and end up as sealed cells you can carefully cut around them and use them. They should be OK ... just a bit more difficult to work with.


There's a good flow on so I'm not feeding. 
There's no doubt some of the larvae are damaged when I graft. I'm working on trying to improve that. But what confuses me is they build out 40% - 50% of my grafts by day 4 or 5 then seem to destroy them between day 5 and 7 or 8. I'm watching 6 cells now that they should seal today. I'll check them tomorrow and see what's going on. But the last batch of 4 that looked good on day 4 were gone on day 10 except for 1 that looked like it was encased in comb... but when I got to try to cutting around it I found only a wad of comb.
Hoping this batch of 6 goes better. 

That, and improving on my ability to get the larvae and jelly in the cup with grace.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

If you're shaky and your eye sight is bad, I'd consider a graft-free method of some sort. I've never done any of them so I can't really comment on how well that will work. But there are options.

That said... cell builder, cell builder, cell builder. Pack them in and then shake more in front.

If you don't have the resources to do that, then you shouldn't be rearing queens other than some sort of splitting method. I don't mean that to be mean or anything. Just lesson learned standpoint.

Here's my first cell builder a couple of years back:

This was absolute garbage and there were even less bees the following day when I grafted into it.

Here's my cell builder this year:


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