# AFB?



## beekeeper79 (Jun 24, 2013)

I went in and did an inspection today and found a spotty brood pattern along with the dark brown "lumps" in several of the cells. They were not ropy, but they did stick to the small twig I stuck in there to pull them out. Again it was only several cells but it was enough for me to panic! 

This is my largest hive full of bees (2 deeps and 3 honey supers with bees filling all boxes) and I have never treated with anything other than powdered sugar. I only saw the decayed larvae in 4-7 cells total on 2 frames out of the 8 I inspected, but was not happy at all! 

Is this normal? The beginning of the end? 

-bk79


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

a picture would help some one diagnose it, also could be PMS as you have never treated.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Could be normal. Probably not the beginning of the end. A spotty brood pattern is normal. Depending on how spotty the pattern is. More information is needed.

What did what you pulled out of the cell look like? Color and consistency?

Have you asked your State Apiary Inspector to come verify whether you have AFB or not? How does what you see compare to photographs of AFB?


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## beekeeper79 (Jun 24, 2013)

After researching PMS it looks A LOT like that. Given my treatment free stance, should I let them sort it out? Powdered sugar? Split the hive or remove the queen for a bit?

-bk79


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You should determine with as much certainty whether this is a disease problem or not.

You ask about using powdered sugar, but maintain a "treatment free stance", while using powdered sugar as a treatment?

Split or remove queen? No.


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## beekeeper79 (Jun 24, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> You should determine with as much certainty whether this is a disease problem or not.
> 
> You ask about using powdered sugar, but maintain a "treatment free stance", while using powdered sugar as a treatment?
> 
> Split or remove queen? No.


I didn't see many cells with brown larvae in them. They weren't ropy but looked brown and gooey in their cells. When I stuck a small twig in there I was able to scoop out the dead larvae and they stuck on the twig. 

When I "spotty" I mean that the center of the frame was open with no eggs or brood except for some brown gooey larvae (maybe 10 or so per side of the two frames with issues) the edges of the frame looked like a shot gun patter with some capped and other cells empty. I inspected 8 of 10 frames (before I about died of heat stroke, despite the shade) in the top deep and didn't look at the bottom deep. 

Only 2 frames out of 8 had any discernable issues. I did see an open swarm cell at the bottom of one of the frames. 

I say "treatment free" with respect to chemicals I wouldn't consume. I'd eat the heck out of powdered sugar, but not so much Api Var or Mite Away. I just tried the powdered sugar last year in the fall as a preventative but never was able to measure if it did any good.

-bk79


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Would you describe what you dug out of the cells as watery?


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## beekeeper79 (Jun 24, 2013)

It was liquidy? It hung on the twig like a drop but didn't drop off. The few that I pulled out were dark brown in color but no smell. I saw several bees with deformed wings.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would do a holst milk test, but if it didn't rope, it's probably not AFB.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#afb


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## beekeeper79 (Jun 24, 2013)

Is there a way to deal with PMS? 
I don't see any signs of AFB (no sunken caps, no rope in larvae) but do see those of PMS (spotty brood, deformed wing virus, no odor)
I don't want to add any chemicals. Last year I did a split of this hive in early July. Should I wait and do the same? Or let the bees sort this out?

-bk79


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beekeeper79 said:


> It was liquidy? It hung on the twig like a drop but didn't drop off. The few that I pulled out were dark brown in color but no smell. I saw several bees with deformed wings.


Ropieness (however you spell roppyness) is described as "breaking off" when the brown viscous liquid is being pulled out of the cell. But you said you didn't see that happening.

I have had some stuff this year which looks like AFB, sort of. Smells like AFB, sort of. Ropes, but not quite like AFB. Samples were taken and sent for Lab Verification. It may well be AFB, but it's weird.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beekeeper79 said:


> Last year I did a split of this hive in early July. Should I wait and do the same? Or let the bees sort this out?
> 
> -bk79


How strong is this hive? I wouldn't think splitting a hive in the condition you've described would make 2 good hives. Silk purse out of a sow's ear sort of thing. Maybe adding a couple of frames of healthy brood and a new queen would clear things up.

A good nectar flow would help. But you are probably past that by now. Aren't you?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I had two hives exhibiting some of this type of stuff. Send a comb sample containing dead larva to Beltsville Lab and remove the doubt. I'm sure that mine are mite related, test came back negative. Sticking in with a match stick I get the same thing. No rope, not watery. Just a dead "glob". I don't have quite so many as you seem to be describing, though. And no deformed wings that I've noticed. I split one hive into a total of 4, one with queen and three with queen cells. As soon as I have laying queens the three formerly queenless shouldn't have any capped brood remaining and they'll get OAV'd. I'll probably start OAV'ing the queenright section once every five days a total of four times starting soon if not tonight. The hive I split was extremely strong and I think were probably cleaning the stuff up faster than I would see it during my inspections.

Both of these hives have had these type of things come and go. The queens are probably out laying the mites right now as we're getting pretty close to prime time for bees in our area. My concern is that they won't be out laying them come August and they may collapse under the load. Going to nip that now instead of dealing with all the dead bees in a couple months.

Just my second year newbie ramblings.


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## beekeeper79 (Jun 24, 2013)

It looked like the bees had been cleaning out the frames. I never saw the queen or eggs but again I was only in the top deep at the time. 
It's going to be 96 today so an inspection is out of the equation. I will attempt and inspection tomorrow and if I don't see eggs or a queen I will re queen. That should be enough to break the brood cycle and slow things down. 
The flow is over here and they've already started robbing. One hive was almost totally wiped out save for 200 bees and the queen. I'm hopeful it will recover soon. If not I'll be swapping some frames from my other hives. 

Anyone ever dump water into a hive to cool it down on a hot day or is that just stupid?

-bk79


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## BeeBop (Apr 23, 2015)

beekeeper79 said:


> After researching PMS it looks A LOT like that. Given my treatment free stance, should I let them sort it out? Powdered sugar? Split the hive or remove the queen for a bit?
> 
> -bk79





beekeeper79 said:


> It was liquidy? It hung on the twig like a drop but didn't drop off. The few that I pulled out were dark brown in color but no smell. I saw several bees with deformed wings.


If the bees have PMS & deformed wing maybe it's time to give up on your TF approach and try something that works. Cuz your TF program doesn't sound like it's working.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beekeeper79 said:


> It looked like the bees had been cleaning out the frames. I never saw the queen or eggs but again I was only in the top deep at the time.
> It's going to be 96 today so an inspection is out of the equation. I will attempt and inspection tomorrow and if I don't see eggs or a queen I will re queen. That should be enough to break the brood cycle and slow things down.
> The flow is over here and they've already started robbing. One hive was almost totally wiped out save for 200 bees and the queen. I'm hopeful it will recover soon. If not I'll be swapping some frames from my other hives.
> 
> ...


Dumping water INTO a hive on a hot day sounds like something pretty freakin' dumb. You could provide them with water nearby to haul.

All those mites from the rob out have probably made it into your other hives now, be prepared.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beekeeper79 said:


> Anyone ever dump water into a hive to cool it down on a hot day or is that just stupid?
> 
> -bk79


No. Bees cool their hive themselves. 

How many hives do you have? Do you know any other beekeepers where you live? Find some and learn what you can from them.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> No. Bees cool their hive themselves.
> 
> How many hives do you have? Do you know any other beekeepers where you live? Find some and learn what you can from them.


He's got one dry one and one that's pretty wet.


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## beekeeper79 (Jun 24, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> He's got one dry one and one that's pretty wet.


Ha! Not quite...

I read somewhere that when (some) people move a large number of hives (say to the mountains for the flow up there) that they will dump water into the hives to cool them off during transport. I've never tried it but wondered if it was limited to commercial operations or if a hobbyist has ever done it.

I have 4 hives and the one in question has been TF for 3 years. The other hives are 2 years old. I'm rolling the dice to see if the hive can come back from this. I've read that the queen will stop laying during an infestation which would break the brood cycle. It may be that the hive did this last year and weathered the storm out before I realized it. Right now it's still very strong with bees so we'll see.


-bk79


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I never dump water into hives during transport. But I will spray the net with water.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

It does not sound like AFB as the cells are capped before the meltdown in my unfortunately sizable experience in the matter. If you are going to let this hive die out please do not let all the bees within three miles rob it out and spread whatever disease it is. But that is the natural way isn't it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beekeeper79 said:


> Ha! Not quite...
> 
> I read somewhere that when (some) people move a large number of hives (say to the mountains for the flow up there) that they will dump water into the hives to cool them off during transport. I've never tried it but wondered if it was limited to commercial operations or if a hobbyist has ever done it.
> 
> ...


How far away from your TF hive are your other three hives?



Vance G said:


> It does not sound like AFB as the cells are capped before the meltdown in my unfortunately sizable experience in the matter. If you are going to let this hive die out please do not let all the bees within three miles rob it out and spread whatever disease it is. But that is the natural way isn't it.


The OP should send a comb sample to Beltsville Bee Lab. It costs maybe $5 to send a small box and know for sure if you're possibly risking someone else's bees/livelihood.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>found a spotty brood pattern along with the dark brown "lumps" in several of the cells.
>They were not ropy
>saw the decayed larvae in 4-7 cells total on 2 frames out of the 8 I inspected
>They weren't ropy but looked brown and gooey in their cells.
>spotty brood, deformed wing virus, no odor

Sounds like EFB or PMS. 

>Given my treatment free stance, should I let them sort it out?
No, this will only cause it to spread in the local area and cause reinfection for years to come.

Post pictures of you brood. 

You need to send samples to the lab. It's free.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=7472

AFB or EFB can stump even the experts;
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-18a-colony-collaspse-revisited/

Pictures for you to compare;
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?298750-Pseudo-Laying-Workers
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?304087-What-is-going-on-with-this
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...d-what-options-(-quot-It-s-complicated-quot-)


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## beekeeper79 (Jun 24, 2013)

This morning I had one of our state bee inspectors from the Dept. Agriculture and we inspected the hive together. He found no signs of AFB or EFB but we did see many k-wing and deformed wing bees. So he said we should do a sugar shake test. The results:









As you can see the mite load is out of control! Also the hive currently has a break in the brood cycle (no eggs or open brood), but I believe it has a virgin queen inside (I added a capped cell 3 days ago, and a queen cell has been torn open from the side). 

I have decided to break my TF stance and treat this hive due to the high mite loads. The problem is that it will be in the 90s for the next two days with a set of 4 days in the 80's then back into the 90's. He recommended ApiGuard since it's easier to apply vs ApiLife which takes 3 applications over a month. I am worried about the heat with the bees being treated. Any ideas? I'd like to move on this ASAP. 

There are honey supers on now but they will be removed on Monday.

-bk79


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

OVA


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## beekeeper79 (Jun 24, 2013)

FlowerPlanter said:


> OVA


It became available only last month in NC. Is there enough research to make it worth it? I know it's harmful as hell to humans.

-bk79


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

if you do the apiguard, look at their web site, if I remember correctly they tell you to use less than the normal amount, and I would guess you would have to do a second and third application with a shorter window than if you did a normal application. if you put it on top of the brood chambers, I would put a large spacer, so they can move the vapors around and keep some of the heat off the apiguard. I've used it in the 80's with no problem.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

People have been OAVing their bees for a pretty long time.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beekeeper79 said:


> It became available only last month in NC. Is there enough research to make it worth it? I know it's harmful as hell to humans.
> 
> -bk79


As a registered pesticide. Otherwise it has been on hardware store shelves for all sorts of things like bleaching wood for ages and ages.


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## beekeeper79 (Jun 24, 2013)

Any recommendations as to the best OAV system or applicator?

-bk79


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

beekeeper79 said:


> Any recommendations as to the best OAV system or applicator?
> 
> -bk79


I like the Varrox. It's a top quality unit.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beekeeper79 said:


> Any recommendations as to the best OAV system or applicator?
> 
> -bk79


SNL sells some dandy ones. I use (currently) a copper pipe and MAPP or propane torch to heat it up and vaporize. Works pretty well. Mine is a 1/2" copper pressure chamber from Home Depot cut down a bit shorter and then cut in half. Then a 1/2" to 1/2" 90* elbow. So three pieces and then I have a 9/16" hole drilled in a 3/4" piece of wood (it's exactly the size of an entrance reducer). The straight part of the pipe pokes in there. The charge is put in at the 90* and tapped down into the bottom of the pressure chamber. Heat and viola.


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## beekeeper79 (Jun 24, 2013)

DPBsbees said:


> I like the Varrox. It's a top quality unit.


Why that one vs the Varroacleaner?


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

it appears sturdier to me. I doubt i'll need to buy another one unless I want to do more than a hive at time. I'm sure SNL can tell you the specific differences.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Search you tube for home "made oxalic vaporizer"

I made several when I treated, IMO the one that goes on the top with a piece of plexiglass is the best overall, you can see it as it's working, you know exactly when it's done, no bee kill from heat rising, no battery or wires to drag around, very cheap to make (it cost me nothing I had scrap wood, plexi and copper pipe), just the pipe took less than 5 min to make. 

If you don't want to make one SNL sells manufactured ones.


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