# First Year plan HSC



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

So what do you hope to gain by making these small bees? Mite help? I have never read nothing conclusive to say that there is any benefit from it. I've read plenty to say it works, but just as much to say that it doesn't work. BUT they're your bees so by all means keep them however you wish.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I guess I don't really understand this small cell business.

Leaving aside the question of why you would do this, the process of it baffles me. 

I had the impression that the so-called regression happened over the course of several generations (succesive daughter queens, etc.) but it sounds from your description that what you have in mind is simply confining the developing pupae into undersized spaces to create smaller bees. Have I got that right? 

I have read the assertions about small cell, regressed bees' pupae spending fewer days in their cells, thereby interfering with the breeding success of varroa. But doesn't that also make them sort of undercooked bees, as well? Are the developmental tasks normally accomplished during that last day or so just speeded up when the pupae become cramped? Or is the only biological change during that late-maturation phase just growing to a larger size? I could understand if the regression happened over series of generations, but not how the offspring of the same queen could be regressed in this way without the risk of damage to the developing bees.

I have only been keeping bees for a couple of years - I am just starting my third summer (assuming it ever gets here!) When I was thinking of hiving my bees, I got the single most valuable piece of bee-advice I've heard: keep it simple: do what everybody else around you is doing, use the same equipment, timing, methods, etc. There is so much you don't have a clue about at first, that if you start with the standard issue kit, you have a better chance of getting the help you need, from local beeks.

Because I successfully overwintered my three first year hives, and have now brought those same three queens, and one 2014 split, through another terrible upstate NY winter, I certainly don't think it is impossible for first year beekeepers to avoid winter losses. (Whether it's reasonable, or wise, to hope that you could establish AND split your first-year colonies is another question.) But I wasn't trying anything fancy - indeed I had no idea about any of the more esoteric methods. I confess that I sort of thought if I put the bees in boxes that they would be fine. That's how utterly clueless I was. But I had to smarten up fast and I did - just in time - manage to get them squared away before the end of my first summer. If I had been trying anything other than plain Jane beekeeping, I think I would surely have lost my bees.

My suggestion is to just try it the regular way for your first year. If you fall under the wonderful spell of bees and you still have your bees next March, you will be better able to attempt Bees 2.0 the following year. And two, well-wintered, booming hives can - and maybe even _must_ - be split in their second season, so you'd wind up with four anyway.

While the more exotic methods promise success - and have huge cachet - it's surprisingly complicated to just take excellent care of your bugs. And is it is enormously gratifying to overwinter them. Nothing is more intoxicating than watching your bees orienting after a long winter. 

Just my two cents worth of advice to a would-be beekeeper, from another non-expert relatively new beek.

My bees, BTW, make most of their own combs, to their own specs, as I use a subsantial amount of foundationless frames. They don't seem to make smaller cells when left to their own devices vs on Pierco plastic frames. My bees are all from swarms cut-out of my barns.

I hope your bees give you as much delight as mine give me.

Enj.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Using the Mann Lake PF 100 series frames works much better than HSC on every level.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

deknow said:


> Using the Mann Lake PF 100 series frames works much better than HSC on every level.


Is this the same guy who recommended hsc in his book?


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

One of the reasons for buying a NUC instead of a package is that it has drawn comb already. You will set your bees back by making them draw new comb. Usually when buying a NUC in the spring it is immediately incorporated into a full sized box. Use your small cell foundation for the extra frames. Better still use foundationless frames and let the bees choose their own cell size. 

You can buy Michael Bush's book or you can read it for free on his website. It discusses the underlying principles for the natural cell size.

Some researchers say that the cell size makes no difference; but most of the experiments I've seen written up (not about cell size) work with un-natural conditions, so the results have to be somewhat suspect.


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## ctoverend (Mar 26, 2015)

I made a mistake in my original post. I should have stated that I want to be a treatment free beekeeper. These are for my own reasons and I know this path is more challenging than doing what I was instructed at beekeeping school. 

@enjanbres
Thank you for the advice. My wife and I discussed this at great length. We ultimately decided we did not want to start down the treatment path we are moving away from this type of thing in our lives. From the reading and videos, it is my understanding that most successful treatment free beekeepers are using natural sized bees. I am not attempting to reduce the number of mites in a hive but allow the bee to reach an equilibrium point with the mites and other diseases that exist.

@deknow
I have not done my research on the Mann Lake frames, but I thought these are just plastic sc frames not drawn out. If the bees are still at their enlarged size they will not maintain the sc on these frames. Ultimately the frames could become irregular and the bees will not regress as soon as I need for them to be prepared for next winter.

@beemandan
Not sure if this for me. I have read Dean Stiglitz’s book and have watched his lectures. It is where I heard of using HSC.

@dsegrest
I bought the nuc before I learn of treatment free beekeeping. I was in my beekeeping class and felt the pressure to buy before all the bee were gone and hoped that buying nucs would increase my chance of success. I now have already paid for the nucs and am trying to make the best of my current situation. I have watched a lot of michaels lectures and hope to go foundationless eventually. I know now could be a great time to start but for many reasons we are waiting. My hope is over the next couple years I will create nucs and have them be foundationless and replace all my old foundation frames.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Are you buying TF bees?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Brad Bee said:


> Are you buying TF bees?


There's a whole other thread on this....that seems to have a more current following.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?309134-First-year-plan-ADVICE-wanted


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