# oxalic acid vaporizer vs formic acid treatment for varroa



## Vectorjet (Feb 20, 2015)

All treatments have good and bad. OAV only costs penny's a treatment, once you have a vaporizer. It is also highly effective when little brood is present, not so good when there is brood because the mites under the cappings are not harmed. It should also not be used with honey supers on. Formic costs more, but kills mites under the cappings and can be used with honey supers on, but has temperature restrictions. There just is not one perfect treatment. As for the sugar rolls, some people get accurate results, others not so much. Seems like technique and patience play a big role in accuracy. The alcohol wash is a little bit more idiot prove. You can check your sugar roll results by taking the bees after the super roll and give the same bees the alcohol wash and if you are able to wash off more mites then you have your answer.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I will add to Vectorjet that MAQS (Formic) has been known to stress colonies and cause some queen attrition, especially in higher temps. As to the sugar roll, if you question your own testing results and cannot trust them as accurate, I would move to one I could.


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## colby (Jan 12, 2013)

I have maqs stiing in my basement because i was afraid to use them after hearing stories of queen loss. 
That said, I see it as my fear and not the product that are a problem.
I have been using sticky boards to monitor mite levels.
As far as treatment I have been using oav which does seem to work.
Now i'm going to fess up (then go hide under the dinning room table )
I started using oa fogging last year and it did work .
10 of twelve hives were active the last warm day we had
Just sayin


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Have been using OAV treatments for 3 years with no loss of bees from treatment or mite related problems, biggest draw back for me is the time involved treating each hive 4 times 5 to 7 days apart. I have the time and like to have healthy bees so for me it is the best/treatment of choice. Last week one of our club officers who is a Master Beekeeper and follows instruction to the letter spoke of his results using MAQS during January – February on this year. He carefully document all his treatments and the results, showed several pictures of the bees killed and of the ten hives he treated three had the queens die.
As others have stated there may not be a single method of treatment that works for everyone but for me OAV is working great.

Last month invested in a ProVap and cut time to treat hives from over 2 hours to less than 20 minutes.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I use both, though mainly OAV. But sometimes in the summer I will use MAQS (have never used the new formulation) when there's a ton of brood, the need for treatment at that point and the right temps (my personal daytime max temp during the one-week treatment period is 82 F - which is far lower than the maximum on the product label, but easy to achieve even in August up here in northern NY)

But a well-timed OAV, particularly that broodless, one shot dose in December sets the stage for such a low build-up from January to late August that most of the time I don't need to treat until September. And you can't get that from MAQS. Having invested in a Varrox wand, the OA to treat hundreds of times costs less than $10. Can't beat that.

I have used MAQS, and never lost a queen, but as I mentioned I only use them in pretty cool temps.

Although they are different chemicals, they are both in the same class of chemical (organic acids) so switching up from one to the other probably doesn't count as far as varying the treatments to avoid building any resistance.

MAQS reportedly also treats tracheal mites, not that I think those are a big problem these days. But, still.

As far as sugar rolls v alcohol washes. Alcohol is faster. Alcohol allows you to actually count your sample size (that has some merit, especially in academic tests.) People don't like to kill their bees, though, and that makes them not want to run tests as often as is useful. 

I learned sugar rolling directly from Meghan Milbrath, and we did exactly what was suggested above: after doing a sugar roll we did an alcohol wash on the same bees. No additional mites came off. There are clearly some "better" ways to do a sugar roll that get more consistent results. And Meghan's method, which I have dubbed Megan Milbrath's Michigan Method of Mite Monitoring can be seen here in its basic form: https://pollinators.msu.edu/resources/beekeepers/varroa-mite-monitoring1/ I think her tweaks make it a little bit better, and I believe my own tweaks make it even easier (mine are bee-handling, equipment, and process tweaks, not fundamental differences in technique.) I now teach only the sugar roll, because that way I can expect students to actually do a roll on each colony once a month during the warm season. Doing alcohol washes only once or twice a season gives much less useful (even if some believe more accurate, though I don't agree) information. Because the most useless test is the one that isn't done, for whatever reason. 

The other thing to remember is that to neither of these tests gives you anything more than a surrogate value for the actual level of mites in your colonies. I often see people trying to translate that into some absolute value, and it just can't be done. You are monitoring to watch the ebb and flow of the mites, not trying to make an assessment of how many individual mites are in the hive at any one time. To do that you'd need to euthanize the colony and check out every dead bee.

l also sticky board weekly (year round) and that gives me additional information about the mites' population changes. 

Nancy


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## Kuro (Jun 18, 2015)

I’m in Zone 8, going into my 4 th year, and I only keep a few hives in my backyard. Every winter I did OAV sometime in December - January and it always worked. For summer-fall, I am a fan of formic acid. In my first year, I used MAQS on my two colonies in mid September and early October, which can be considered quite late, but it worked and they survived. In my 2 nd year, I attempted to control varroa with repeated OAV during summer-fall in vain and ended up with one dead colony and two very weak colonies in spring. I’ll never do it again but it may work fine with your bees in your location. In my 3 rd year, I treated 2 colonies with MAQS in August, before mite# gets too high. It worked but one colony probably got re-infected and mite# bounced back by mid October, so I treated both with Apivar (which worked well). This year, I’m planning to use Formic pro, two half doses 10 days apart, starting early September (or earlier if mite# gets too high). 

These days I only look at 48hr natural mite drop (weekly during August - November, less frequently other times, and very often during treatment), to decide when to start/stop treatments. I once rolled my unmarked, dark queen in powdered sugar, so I will not do alcohol wash unless I really want to compare % infestation levels across many colonies of various sizes.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I use OAV three treatments in August. On Sep 18, the state bee ladies sampled 8 hives of my bees and sent them off to U of Maryland for analysis. I just got it back today and in 532 sampled bees, they found TWO mites. I can live with that and I don't have the damage that formic indeed causes and hops causes. Apiguard is my second choice on strong colonies but Formic and hops just have no place in my plans.


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

Wow Vance, that sounds Great!!! New to bees, and really would like to know more of your program details. Could you post on my page here. It richinbama, it will help me keep up with it better. I have problems getting info moved around on here. Thanks.


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

I'm getting my bees in about a week or so, so I'm really trying to get a yrly schedule of any type treatment regimen that I need to do, so I can do my best with the new bees at the farm. Thanks Richard


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## ABruce (Dec 27, 2013)

Vance G said:


> I use OAV three treatments in August. On Sep 18, the state bee ladies sampled 8 hives of my bees and sent them off to U of Maryland for analysis. I just got it back today and in 532 sampled bees, they found TWO mites. I can live with that and I don't have the damage that formic indeed causes and hops causes. Apiguard is my second choice on strong colonies but Formic and hops just have no place in my plans.


Hi Vance,
I would like to know more too, what daytime temperature were you getting? I have always used formic but it can stay warm here into September and its almost too late to treat. 
thanks


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

enjambres said:


> Although they are different chemicals, they are both in the same class of chemical (organic acids) so switching up from one to the other probably doesn't count as far as varying the treatments to avoid building any resistance.


That may or may not be true (no resistance has been observed in regard of OA over here in Europe over the last 20 years) - but it's important to recognise that Oxalic Acid and Formic Acid work in completely different ways.

Immediately following vapourisation, Oxalic Acid dust is formed, the particles of which are too large to penetrate the permeable brood cappings, whereas Formic Acid produces a gas - which does. Hence Formic Acid is highly temperature dependent in it's mode of action as a miticide, and thus can prove too aggressive at higher temperatures.
The 'trade-off' then is one of Oxalic Acid being (generally speaking) safer to use, but unlike Formic Acid vapour it will not make contact with mites protected behind a brood cell cap.
LJ


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## BeeHoosier (Feb 21, 2016)

Tombee, I am in a similar situation. I used a sugar roll because I didn't like the idea of killing extra bees during sampling, but the more I read the more it seems clear that an alcohol wash is considered to be more accurate. There are always bees dying throughout the season, so in a colony (tens of thousands of bees) an alcohol wash may be a small sacrifice to get more accuracy. I think sugar rolls can be done and give great info but I just feel an alcohol wash would be more accurate to me.

I too used MAQS last year and it seemed to work well. In hindsight I should have followed up with closer mite counts during the fall after my MAQS treatment because I could have used another round of mite killing in the fall. This year I am prepared to use OAV and then if I need treatments during the summer when honey supers are on I plan to use Formic Pro as long as the temps are not too hot. I think that will be a nice 1-2 punch against mites.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Richinbama said:


> Wow Vance, that sounds Great!!! New to bees, and really would like to know more of your program details. Could you post on my page here. It richinbama, it will help me keep up with it better. I have problems getting info moved around on here. Thanks.


My program is not difficult. Just test and if you find mites, kill them. I do sugar rolls. I have two wide mouth quart jars with #8 hardware cloth lids. I take a half cup of bees off combs with older larvae. That s where the mites congregate to jump in a cell and hide just before the larvae is capped. I look carefully to make sure the queen is not on the frame and shake the bees off into a tupperware dish pan, the one with rounded bottoms. I carefully scoop a half cup measure full of bees and put them in the jar and seal it. I dump a heaped tbsp of powdered sugar in the jar and spend a full minute rolling the jar to thoroughly coat and harass the bees. After the minute is up I set it in the shade of the hive and repeat the process. After finishing with them, I go to first jar and put a sandwich bag over the mouth. Then I invert the jar and spend anothr minute gently shaking and wiggling the jar to dislodge mites. 

Then I seal the baggie and number it. After finishing, I return to first baggie and put a couple tbsp of water in the bag. The sugar goes clear and the little chestnut colored beasts. I write the number on the bag 

You assume the scoop of mites is assumed to be 300 bees. If you find three mites that means your mite load is 1 percent. Six means 2 percent. If I find over that , I pull off supers and treat them with OA vapor. Three treatments five days apart. After treating all required, I put supers back on if appropriate. In early August, I treat all hives three times.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

FWIW formic can be even cheaper than oxalic if one purchases it and mixes their own. I do this and it is pennies when used with a "meat pad". Male varroa that are under the cappings are killed and I've found formic to be extremely effective with no measurable queen loss. This is just my own experience.
I think alcohol wash is the way to go as far as testing. Don't be concerned about killing the bees because you are doing this to save the bee YARD..
Personally I treat without testing because I feel that varroa are in all hives where varroa is able to survive.


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## Tombee MI (Apr 19, 2017)

Thanks for all the great information and advice guys! I think I will do the alcohol wash this year because I feel it will be a more accurate measurement of my mite load. I am also going to investigate more about OAV treatments so I can have both methods available in my arsenal as it sounds like they both have pros and cons.


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## AstroZomBEE (Aug 1, 2006)

Most of the mite treatments available are very effective when used properly. That being said rotate through each of them. Don't use just one every time. Swap out every year, or every other treatment with a different style. If you use Formic in the spring, use OA in the fall.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

Vance G said:


> the state bee ladies sampled 8 hives of my bees and sent them off to U of Maryland for analysis. I just got it back today and in 532 sampled bees, they found TWO mites.


My experience with the hives at my workplace has been very similar to your results Vance. But I used HopGuard2 on those hives and didn't have to remove honey supers from the hives during treatment.


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## B52EW (Jun 3, 2013)

During a hive inspection of one of my hives I found the drone larvae to have a high mite count. The hives here were building fast with lots of brood so I decided to try Formic Pro versus doing a round of OAV treatments. I was concerned about the potential to lose a queen, but decided to give it a try. The hive consisted of a three stack of 8-frame mediums. I placed 2 of the treatment pads between the bottom and second box and left it for 2 weeks. Removed it this weekend. The queen survived and had all phases of brood both above and below the pads. Only thing I noted different in this hive from my others were several queen cups being built. But, because I was "locked" out of the hive for 2 weeks at this time of year it is quite understandable.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

AstroZomBEE said:


> Most of the mite treatments available are very effective when used properly. That being said rotate through each of them. Don't use just one every time. Swap out every year, or every other treatment with a different style. If you use Formic in the spring, use OA in the fall.


Why? OAV works great, kills mites, does not harm your bees, takes a bit of your time but when did hobby beekeepers worry much about their time.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

does anyone think there is benefit to empiric treatment spring, summer and fall and one broodless OAV in early winter? I mean simply assuming the presence of varroa given the near ubiquitous nature of the pest and treating without sugar/alcohol rolling first?


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

aran said:


> does anyone think there is benefit to empiric treatment spring, summer and fall and one broodless OAV in early winter? I mean simply assuming the presence of varroa given the near ubiquitous nature of the pest and treating without sugar/alcohol rolling first?


I do.

While it is comparing apples to oranges BUT, do folks get a flu shot just because of the ubiquitous nature of the disease or wait till someone else in the house has the flu to seek treatment(s)? We treat our cows, horses, dogs and other critters to keep pests and disease away. Well our bees can be thought of as livestock; in fact in Alabama they are protected by certain laws defining them as livestock.

Good Lord willing I will complete my forth weekly spring treatment on my hives tomorrow. Plan to treat again starting about the third week of August and while we do not have a totally brood less period will do another OAV treatment some time in December when they have a couple of days of flying weather. 

Might not make the bees feel any better but treating my bees makes me feel better, consider it as insurance.


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## BeeHoosier (Feb 21, 2016)

aran said:


> does anyone think there is benefit to empiric treatment spring, summer and fall and one broodless OAV in early winter? I mean simply assuming the presence of varroa given the near ubiquitous nature of the pest and treating without sugar/alcohol rolling first?


 Treating empirically can be better than doing nothing to control/monitor mites, however I think it is much better to use treatments when needed. If one treats on a set schedule without monitoring mite levels then you really don't know if your treatment is effective and you don't really know if you are timing it appropriately. You may be adding unnecessary stress to the colony by treating when it is not really needed.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Before Randy Oliver published his mite modeling program, I was an advocate for treating only when indicated with maybe a prophylactic single shot OAV in the winter in hopes of catching them broodless. After working with the mite model, and from 3 years of limited experience now, I think that pre-treatment mite checks are a waste of time. My plan forward is to treat "by-the-calendar" using post-treatment alcohol washes as quality control for effectiveness. With 11+ months of brood cycles, there really is no question in my mind that I will need to treat spring and fall and with a single shot of OAV in winter.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

A shot of OAV at any time is as good as a mite check to me, I just check the sticky board the next morning and you can see the severity of the mite load. A large fall would indicate that a regimen of treatment is necessary where as a light fall would indicate would allow you to move on. To me the most important checks are the ones a few weeks after a regimen of OAV or any other treatment to make sure that you are truly safe.
Johno


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I've never once counted mites, either before or after VOA treatment - and only on one occasion have I needed to give multiple doses in mid-season after spotting a large number of deformed bees - but other than that single occurrence, one good dose in winter is all that's been necessary to keep Varroa in check. Indeed, I haven't lost a single colony to Varroa since I started using VOA. The only slight hassle has been the time taken to treat a large number of colonies - but thanks to Johno's excellent 'Band Heater Vapouriser' thread, even that now promises to be a non-issue.
LJ


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

It was a somewhat disingenuous question by me since i dont and havent tested for mites. I have just empirically treated since starting bee keeping. Just wanted to see what other peeps were doing.

Im a doc and as i tell medical students...ordering testing is like picking your nose in the elevator...you need a plan when you find something. In other words if we accept that mites are all but ubiquitous ie everywhere then would a sugar roll with low mite counts change our decision to treat our colonies on a regular basis with a treatment that to date as far as i can tell there is no resistance to, and is cheap and effective? I guess then what im saying is as little_John has stated using an absence of colony death as a surrogate for effect of the OAV seems a reasonable strategy to me as opposed to testing then treating.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

The benefits of treatment for mites, and the benefits of OAV treatment _specifically_, far outweigh the cost of doing nothing. But that is not to say there is no cost of treating _to the bees_. And we may not know all that we need to know about those costs, yet.

To me there seems to be a range of choices from testing then treating in response to the results; treating as a matter of routine (do I test for gingival infection, or do I just floss anyway?), or doing nothing until poor little deformed bees are flopping around trying to fly? 

I suppose it's a personal approach, but one of the reasons I prefer to test is that it gives me at least the_ illusion_ of being on top of things in my yard. I really like the confidence I have that I know what my mite status is, all the time. When something has interrupted my practice in this area, I feel quite anxious until I can get my testing protocol back in place, again. 

And if additional, or stronger, efforts are ever needed I'd like to know that I need to ramp things up, considerably, to meet the challenge. I would really hate to be caught flat-footed (but with a hot wand in my hand) when some change happens that causes an undetected surge in mites.

Nancy


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

Hi Nancy, I read over what you said back in 3,10 . All makes sence. I think I need to do mite test at least 1 time per month, and treat o av as needed by test. I did get my 2 packages in this past Monday, hives them, ect. That same day someone asked me to get a swarm removed for them. At 5 p.m. had them back at my farm shortly after 7 p.m. was a.fun experience, and one huge swarm. It had to be far greater in size to my 2 packages combined. I was well prepared for the 2 packages with extra boxes ect. But that swarm caught me off guard. I had a 5 frame nuc handy, and it was buldgin at the seems. I had a 70 mile round trip to Pick up a second nuc to top it with. Fortunately, I had a 10 frame hive and boxes built, just needing to be painted, and metal put on Tele cover. I'll reinstall sunday afternoon after church. I got several extra 10 frame supers i built ahead already. Imnrunning all med. Frames, so ill have to stay on top a bit at first, and build a bunch ahead. All said and done, doing the 2 packages, and 1 monster swarm . I only got stung 7 times inn the day. With no smoker. Also, I got a neighbor with a monster gas tank hive removal I'm going to get also on same day. But I'll try trapping out this one as I can tackle this to easily. It's in old truck, and a jungle around it. I'm thinking of how to get those bees. It filled up the tank, and like a super highway coming and going.!!! Ideas welcome....lol and fingers crossed too.n


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