# Beeviction notice from the city



## Wax (Mar 10, 2011)

Well I'm really bummed. Opened my mail yesterday. Guess what I found. A notice from the city that they've had a complaint about me beekeeping and that it is against city ordinance to keep bees and they must be removed or destroyed 
What really bums me out is that I called the city before I got the bees to see if it was OK and I was told to go ahead. :scratch:
I took every precaution I could, called the city, talked to all of the neighbors, got carnies because of their tendancy to be docile, VERY carefully constructed my apiary so it is truly invisible and placed it where it faces south towards the railroad tracks behind the house with at least 100 yrds to the next building (clear flight path). I've really really enjoyed having them in the back yard. I'm over there all the time watching then and fussing over them, now I'm in panic mode. I've got to find them a new home. As we all know most people are wary of bees so i'm anticipating some difficulty finding someone locally to help me. Thankfully I live in a small rural town so I should be able to find a farmer near by who would appreciate some free pollination and honey. Guess I'll go door to door begging for awhile. 
I haven't broken the news to the girls yet, something tells me they won't care too much though!
If anybody has ideas I'd really appreciate it.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

What does the ordinance say? Have you read it?


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## Wax (Mar 10, 2011)

Yes I've read it. They sent me a copy with the complaint letter. That part of the ordinance bans agricultural activity (farming) in city limits. Bees are specifically mentioned. Though I think the intent was to stop a person from having a large apiary, not a single hobby hive. I wanted to ask if they also send letters to people with large hornets nests or what they'd do about a hive of feral bees that was found in city limits.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

That is a real bummer,

Maybe you can find a friend who would let you keep your bees outside of city limits. We live outside of town limits, and I know I would let any of my friends keep their bees on my property. Really hope you can find a place to keep your bees.

Shane


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## Wax (Mar 10, 2011)

Yup, it's a bummer, but what's a guy to do. There is no way I'm gonna stop beekeeping. I did some brainstorming last night, I even suggested keeping them in the garage (i'd read that it can be done somewhere in the 10-15 books i've read) but my wife gave me "the look" which I believe I properly interpreted as "are you crazy?". I'll figure something out even if I have to knock on every farmer's door for a 10 mile radius. Mostly I was just venting my frustration at the unecessary complication of a new hobby I was really enjoying.
I've actually taken this as an opportunity to expand my apiary. If I can't keep 'em in town I might has well keep multiple hives in multiple locations! There may be a silver lining to this cloud yet.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

The animus against "bugs" is temendous. Just listen to the radio and hear the steadily repeating commercial for 'Sevin' to cure all your gardening woes. Sounds like the reader wears a flight suit but thats beside the point. Most people steadfastly refuse to think. Governments do their best to insure non-thinking by passing a constant barrage of rules and regulations.


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## ScottJ (Apr 4, 2011)

That really sucks!

Just another crazy law to tell us how to run our lives. That's the (new) American way!

To be sure a local farmer will provide you a place. Good luck!


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

I feel bad for you. It only takes one person to make your life miserable.

Milwaukee got a lot of press for "legalizing" beekeeping, but the ordinance is so restrictive that it is almost impossible for anyone to jump through the legislative hoops necessary to do it legally. Not to mention the $80 yearly fee... ughhh... If nothing else, it at least was some free publicity for the bees.

Anyway, I think you've already figured out what to do, so go to it! When you are done with that, it is time to start petitioning the town to change its ordinance.


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## sevenmmm (Mar 5, 2011)

Schedule an appointment with your Mayor and ask for advice on how to have the law changed. Tell him/her your story about seeking permission, and the story of your girls...

They are both good stories.


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## abejorro (May 9, 2011)

I've been lurking for a while, but this story really makes my blood boil. I can understand ordinances against someone having many hives, but against a hobby beekeep?

I concur with suggestions to try to talk to mayor or some other folks in City Hall? Maybe a kind interview with local tv station or newprint reporter? Have you met with neighbors to explain how innocuous your hives are (and how important to their flower gardens)? You prolly don't want to make headlines, but I think taking the opportunity to educate the public would be a good thing.

US Agricultural Department 103 Fire Monument Road, Hinckley, MN 55037-8302 (320) 384-6176 ‎ 
Hinckley City Hall 320-384-7491 www.hinckley.govoffice2.com
Hinckley Newspaper 320-384-6188


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

You should have no problem finding a place to place them. I ran an ad on Craigslist looking for an out yard and have had mutliple calls from people wanting bees at their place. After you move them I would do as others have suggested and try to get the law changed. There are lots of places that have changed the laws to allow beekeeping inside the city limits. Even NYC changed theirs recently. Find some of these cases and take them with you when you go before the City leaders.


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## Capricorn (Apr 20, 2009)

Wax said:


> Yup, it's a bummer, but what's a guy to do. ...


You could go to your city council and ask for an exception. They may say no, but it would be your chance to educate them that a single colony or two in the back yard is harmless.


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## Watchdog2020 (May 6, 2010)

Build a 'Camouflage Hive' and put it smack in the middle of your front yard. People never see what is right in front of their eyes. I’m going to make a hive that looks like this picture (just for fun).


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## Dan. NY (Apr 15, 2011)

The exception may not be a bad idea. You can present a strong case. Bring some videos of people handling bees without bee suites, try and educate them. Then at the end if they deny your request, ask for a time extension to find a suitable home, as these are living, breathing, creatures.

Dan


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

In addition to some communities changing ordinances to allow honey bees, there are also some communities changing to allow (a limited number of) chickens. 

Educating those in city government is key in getting changes made to allow bees or chickens. However, it bugs me when they want to charge large fees for permits to do so.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

Watchdog2020 said:


> I’m going to make a hive that looks like this picture (just for fun).


Please post pics when you achieve it and maybe share plans on beesource for others to follow suit.


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## roostershooter7 (May 26, 2011)

I don't know if this helps much, but I thought I'd mention it.

A local beekeeper doesn't have a single hive on his urban property. Instead he has worked out a deal with the local agricultural community and state apiary society so that he can keep numerous (50+) hives all over the county. 

I have spoken to him on several occasions, and he is quite happy with the arrangement. The state has given him blanket protection from local laws and the farmers are just tickled to death that they get free bees on their land. He mentioned that due to his diverse habitats for different colonies, he is able to harvest various grades of honey from hives that are spread throughout the area. One area of the county might be plentiful in honey locust and mustard where as another area might be abundant in blackberry and wild cherry blooms. 

It's something to look into. I have no idea who you would contact in your area, but I would start at the local agricultural extension office. They should be able to point you in the right direction.


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## Scottyd (Apr 17, 2011)

Like another poster mentioned try craigslist. I put an ad up and within a week I had about 10 good emails and leads I settled on this one farm not far from me. They got me intouch with the widower of a beekeeper and I ended up with a colony of bees and tons of hives. I made great contacts friendly people a place to beekeep while helping a farm.


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## usaairforceeod (Jan 22, 2011)

Having one bee hive should not be considered "agricultural activity" any more than having a small vegetable garden. I think you should write letters of complaint against every person in town growing so much as a tomato plant and see what the town and the citizens thinks about the law then. How bizzare that they are claiming your one bee hive is some sort of agricultural operation. This is offensive and discriminatory.


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## Steve C (Jun 25, 2006)

1st contact your city Rep and ask him what is his view.... if he is not "in the know"... show him the good side of bee's.
get your neighbors on board with you... a Google of voter's is a powerful thing....!!!

*FLIP side...* 
What neighbor turned you in... why did he turn you in... maybe he has a very bad reaction to stings..
so he is only *trying to cut down the risk* of stings in his area...?? from his point of view any stings is a bad thing... 
vice our view... Honey / Honey bee's is good...lol


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## Gord (Feb 8, 2011)

Sometimes it's better to ask forgiveness than permission.
I'd move the hive temporarily and have the city inspect.
If your neighbours can't see the area, I'd move the bees back a week later.

You should look for the pheromone attractant used for some mosquito traps, and deposit a few out of sight around the home of the person who ratted you out.


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## vegasvalet (Jan 10, 2011)

I read your post and it makes me mad that people can't mind their own business. I live in Las Vegas and found out that if I live in the city I can't have bees :no: , but if I lived in the county I could  , this is really stupid since there are sections of the county within the city :scratch: I decided to keep to keep bees anyways and just do it on the down low, so far so good :shhhh: . I also have plans A, B, and C just in case someone complains. I think you need to clarify with the city that you only have 1 have as a hobby and see what they say. 

I have seen people walking around with dogs in walmart before and questioned it with a lawyer friend. He stated that it's against the law, unless a person needs one for medical, physical or psychological reasons (federal law, but you need documentation). Maybe you could go see your a shrink, tell him or her that you are depressed and you only seem to be happy when you have your bees, I know it's fetching but what the heck.....


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## Wax (Mar 10, 2011)

Wow!
I love all the responses! It's really helped me look at this in a much more positive light!
The windmill beehive in the hard just about made me fall off of my chair! :lpf:
I instantly thought of 10-15 garden nomes in my yard. All full of bees! 
Abejorro, I appreciate the links! I'm gonna drop by the ag department this afternoon and have a little converstation with them. Never hurts to have the weight of the feds behind you when trying to change a city ordinance.
Thanks again everybody. Like I had posted previously, I will try to use this to expand my apiary (possibly beyond my wife's wildest nightmares) and to educate people. As for identifying the source of the complaint I think that's a dead end. Someone probably saw me in my suit working the hive and was freaked out and locating other people in violation of city ordinances sounds like i'd be utilizing time that I could be working the bees or drinking beer!(plus I've got a big garden and I'd have to have to move that too!)


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## dmpower (Nov 7, 2010)

Maybe your bees are not on city property!! If you have them by the railroad track, you might want to check on the easement. You may have your hive on property that is not governed by the local city codes - just a thought! Also if you are not harvesting honey for yourself (just to feed back to the bees) is it still an agriculture issue?
Good luck!!


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## Wax (Mar 10, 2011)

All wonderful ideas!


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I believe that ordinances of this nature are quite ridiculous, they are not going to protect persons with hypersensitivity to honey bee stings (honey bees are not confined to hives as their residences). I have also had issues with my own county zoning department. I wish you the best success dealing with this.

Maybe you could rethink the "bee-suit" thing. I wear a hat and keep a veil handy, but rarely use it. If the bees start to fuss after my face, I drop it over my head -- just draped over my shoulders, then if they seem to be over their interest in my face, I can slip it off again, just as easily.

If you're not comfortable with the bees, how can you expect your neighbors to be?


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## Wax (Mar 10, 2011)

Oh it's not that I'm not comfortable with them. Plus, give a newbee a break. It's my first hive, I'll get better with time as virtually everybody does.
It's that my reaction to a sting is not all that positive. Hence the suit.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Yikes, I hadn't realized you were possibly one of the "hypersensitive" ones. I certainly hope you can get that resolved without serious consequences.

I know that if I were hypersensitive to honey bee venom, I would need to try the desensitization techniques, and if they didn't work, I would probably die. At least I'd die, happy.


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

Here in Oregon you are not considered a bee keeper unless you have 5 or more hives. At that point you are required to register with the AG for 10 dollars per year regardless of how many hives you have. So I would ask what defines agriculture enterprise for bees in your state. I bet they also have a number just like our state does. We have a bee keeper here in town who also got turned in by a neighbor. The inspector came out and told him he does not see a problem, but said that more complaints can cause that the city to tell him to remove it. He suggested to move the 2 hives to someone else's property for a month and put up some privacy fence around his property and later move the hives back. He basically said nobody will notice the bees because they fan out. What got the neighbor going was actually seeing the hive boxes. I'm outside of city limit so there is no issue for me. I have 22 acres, yet I keep the hives close to the house. I never see them around the house. They take off into our meadow and elsewhere.


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## Wax (Mar 10, 2011)

Yup, the bad reaction to the sting did throw me off some, but I prescribe to the same theory you do. If I die doing something I enjoy, it was a life well lived.
The second sting reaction wasn't as bad as the first, so i'll decrease protective equipment as the reaction decreases. I'm just trying to reduce the chance of multiple stings in multiple areas until I'm relatively certain it won't kill me!

Katharina,
That is more interesting info! One more great question to ask the Ag departement!
Thank you! :banana:


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Yikes, I hadn't realized you were possibly one of the "hypersensitive" ones. I certainly hope you can get that resolved without serious consequences.
> 
> I know that if I were hypersensitive to honey bee venom, I would need to try the desensitization techniques, and if they didn't work, I would probably die. At least I'd die, happy.


People get stung by something yellow and call it a bee. They burn, itch and hurt for a day, and still call it a bee. Most of the time it was a wasp or yellow jacket and they just don't know. My postal guy thought he was allergic to bees. He got stung 2 years ago and ended up in the emergency room and now carries an epi pen with him. He was kind of worried when I told him we have bees, because he comes her daily to pick up packages from our mail order business. He showed up when we were getting ready to inspect the hive and I asked him if he would like to see it. He said yes and we gave him a veil for protection. He had fun looking into the hive, seeing the brood frames and so on. He also noted that they did not look like what stung him and was amazed that they did not even care that we took their home apart. I asked him if the sting left a stinger in his arm and he said no. I told him that bees will leave a stinger behind and die afterwards so it is not in their interest to sting. I also told him that wasps can sting repeately because they do not loose their stinger and die. Both have different venoms. He agreed on the venom part because he got stung by a bumble bee and did not react much at all. Perhaps this is what many don't know and they just throw it all into the bee sting pot. Education can do a lot the things. My postal guy no longer says it was a bee that got him. He now thinks it was a wasp, because is was bright yellow and shiny. Sadly it is sometimes hard to tell people that they are wrong. Getting them to go online and research it is even harder. They have made up their mind and that's it.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Talk to the Mayor? Dont waste your breath. The City Council is a better bet, although not much better. 

"the bees must be moved or _*destroyed*_". Destroyed by whom? Are they really going to send someone from the parks department over to your backyard and burn your hive. They would need a court order to destroy private property, even if you are not in compliance with City ordinance. If they issue you an actual citation, you have the right to defend your self in municipal court (much like a speeding ticket). You may find that the person who wrote the notice was not interpreting the ordinance correctly (pleading your case to a judge is much better than talking to the Mayor or arguing with the city council). Make sure you read and re-read the specific ordinace thoroughly. There is a big difference between, "Any and all beekeeping activities are considered an agricultural activity that is stricktly forbidden within City limits" and "Agricultural activies including beekeeping is prohibited within City limits". In the second case you could present the case that a single uncommercial hive does not constitute an agricultural activity and you might have a pray at beating it. 

Most importantly, is there a fine involved for non-compliance? You could just ignore the notice.


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> Are they really going to send someone from the parks department over to your backyard and burn your hive. They would need a court order to destroy private property, even if you are not in compliance with City ordinance. If you end up in municipal court, you may find that the person who wrote the notice was not interpreting the ordinance correctly (pleading your case to a judge is much better than talking to the Mayor or arguing with the city council).


I'd be worried that Mayor's brother-in-law worked for Orkin...


> While bees can benefit the environment in many ways, it is inconvenient and possibly dangerous to let a bee hive thrive near your home.


 They might just send someone to spray when you aren't around. Personally, I'd play it safe and fight the battle without putting my bees in the firing line.


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## Wax (Mar 10, 2011)

Katharina,
I agree that education is the key. I've only been keeping bees for 6 weeks and I can't even count the number of questions I've answered! I can't imagine how many people more experienced beeks have "educated"!

Nabber,
I agree with you also. I think it will be a waste of time. To me it's not worth the hassle to fight the city too hard on this. I'd rather find someone who will be happy to have my bees than deal with the hassle of trying to keep them at my place in town.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

If you indeed felt your throat swelling, you need to determine if this was a real serious allergic reaction or hopefully a little hysteria on your part. Hysteria is not a bad word, it is an unreasonable fear and I have my own so don't feel special. Your Dr. could work out a regimen to desensitize you to bee venom if neccessary and it is that important to you. If he can't you need a new Dr. Otherwise, you may be playing Russian Roulette and your wife should UP your life insurance amount. Please be careful, beekeeping does not need the bad press.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Just like people can confuse the difference between a wasp and a honey bee, so too can people believe that they are allergic to honey bee venom, when in fact, they are just having a local reaction. People should know the difference. Educating city council should include data about how the majority of most trips to ER for A. shock due to stings are actually from wasps and not honey bees. It is rare to be allergic to bee venom, but it does happen. A big swell, warmth, itchiness and a big red welt at the sting site are local reactions (local reaction can range from mild to more uncomfortable ones). The point is a LOCAL reaction is not life threatening. 

Explain that a honey bee is not aggressive away from the hive unless it is defending itself from attack (or stepped on).

Maybe locate and recommend a great video on line that they can watch to see honey bees working and beekeepers going through the hives without incident. 

Welcome and answer all their questions...........and be prepared!


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## Wax (Mar 10, 2011)

Vance I'm special alright, you can ask my wife about that! 
It may well have been hysteria. The first inspection was a little intimidating for someone has who only read about it, has no mentor and is just getting over the notion that all bees/wasps/hornets are the same and are evil. Especially since I made several mistakes and the girls were rather riled up!
Luckily my father is a physician and we've talked at length about my sting reaction. So there is no concern on my part. That's where I got the epi pen prescription. It wasn't really for me, I've been stung by a myriad of things without being overly concerned. It was just in case multiple stings occured or if someone in the neighborhood had a bad reaction, even if it wasn't from my bees. I just thought it a very good precaution for anyone keeping bees. I'd just rather be prepared for any emergency.


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## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

I would recommend that you request the City to amend their ordinance and that you can assist them to do so and also ask the Mayor to withhold any further action on your property until the amendment is heard. Anyone can file an application to amend a zoning ordinance. BEE prepared to give a complete powerpoint presentation on the need for bees and give them a draft ordinance that you probably can obtain froForum members.


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## Wax (Mar 10, 2011)

More great ideas woodedareas!
Good Golly! I never expected such a reaction and plethora of suggestions!


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Before you try to ammend the ordinance, I would make sure it actually exists. I am not finding any references to beekeeping on the City's website.

*http://tinyurl.com/3bq42ez*


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## Wax (Mar 10, 2011)

I almost feel as if this website is a hive of bees! AHBs at that!
I put out the alarm pheromone and holy cow did the fellow guard bees come out in force!
Heck I've got a Kansas Beek searching the Hinckley government web site, a Virginia Beek finding the location of the local Ag dept and others from across the country! Holy Cow! I don't think this little town of 1,400 people stands a chance!

I'll say it again -THANKS!:applause:


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## dmpower (Nov 7, 2010)

Nabber86 said:


> Before you try to ammend the ordinance, I would make sure it actually exists. I am not finding any references to beekeeping on the City's website.
> 
> *http://tinyurl.com/3bq42ez*


Look here - page 2 (3) Farm animals
also same page 9.02 A and B
-found under Chapter 90 Animals

http://www.hinckley.govoffice2.com/...ds/{CDFE2C7E-9ADF-4E02-A783-3809E0EACE6D}.PDF


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I stand corrected. You are screwed. From Chapture 90 (so much for help from Kansas:


View attachment 293


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## Desert Viking Ranch (Mar 1, 2011)

With the dire state of honey bees world wide, why not establish a "scientifc research laboratory" for them...you could be trying to produce a hardy strain of bees resistant to mites...then you are excluded 

Heck, you could even get govt. grants to fund your operation, and generally speaking there is no size definition a research laboratory....one or one hundred hives, it should be all the same. :thumbsup:


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

1) Do a forum search on the word "ordinance" - there are several threads that discuss model ordinances for communities to allow hobby beekeeping.

2) Explore exactly what is banned by "agricultural activity (farming) in city limits". Are vegetable gardens banned? Can someone grow a few tomatoes? Is a colony of bees any different than a vegetable garden? 

3) Along with #1 is educating local officials. Sometimes a picture is worth more than a thousand words. Here's a few hives in very public places:
http://www.tonitoni.org/photos26.html

http://oneblockdiet.sunset.com/2010/09/sunset-meets-googleplex-honey-extraction-at-the-hiveplex.html


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## Wax (Mar 10, 2011)

I love the idea of the scientific research laboratory!
I'll have to ask the city how I go about gaining that status!

I still appreciate the effort Kansas!


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Desert Viking Ranch said:


> With the dire state of honey bees world wide, why not establish a "scientifc research laboratory" for them...you could be trying to produce a hardy strain of bees resistant to mites...then you are excluded
> 
> Heck, you could even get govt. grants to fund your operation, and generally speaking there is no size definition a research laboratory....one or one hundred hives, it should be all the same. :thumbsup:


Either that or the exception for, "animals specifically trained for and actually providing assessitance to the handicapped or disabled". 

Lets see if we can make this work. Arthritis or a back disability (from lifting heavy supers) and bees trained to provide venom therapy?


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## Wax (Mar 10, 2011)

All wonderful options!


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## Desert Viking Ranch (Mar 1, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> Either that or the exception for, "animals specifically trained for and actually providing assessitance to the handicapped or disabled".
> 
> Lets see if we can make this work. Arthritis or a back disability (from lifting heavy supers) and bees trained to provide venom therapy?


 
You may be on to something...apitherapy isn't just exclusive to bee venom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apitherapy


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## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

I have a model municipal ordinance that is being used in Louisiana that you may want to use. I suggest sending it to the city council and anyone else that might grant you a variance.

Let me know and I will send you a copy, right now it is in Word.

Al


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## southeastflorida (May 23, 2010)

That is what I got too, "must be zoned agrilculture"
(Oakland Park, subdivision of Fort Lauderdale)


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

How much time do you have? Plan on moving the bees to an accepted area but pull in the media and the mayor on what A-***** these people are when the world would be in a pollination crisis without bees. I got to say I am on pin and needles because I am waiting for the day when I might receive the same letter. Trust me, I won't go down without making a lot of noise.


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## Gord (Feb 8, 2011)

Make them take you to court.
Make your presentation there.
You aren't keeping draft animals or livestock (even though bees may be classed as such).
You are pursuing your hobby.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Gord said:


> Sometimes it's better to ask forgiveness than permission.


I've heard that more times than I can count, _always _from people who _never _offer to help pay a fine that results from taking their advice.

Wayne


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## Spark (Feb 24, 2011)

I would ask to see the complaint ..it's your right..I would also demand the city to remove every bee within city limits to comply with the their so called laws & statutes and claim bias if they fail. Irony yes?? 

I don't believe in giving in and I know many who keep bees to fall in the "don't create problems" category. But it's the problems they allow by not presenting fact, stand your ground and use education as a defense.


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## S_Toast (Nov 20, 2010)

Wax said:


> Yes I've read it. They sent me a copy with the complaint letter. That part of the ordinance bans agricultural activity (farming) in city limits. Bees are specifically mentioned. Though I think the intent was to stop a person from having a large apiary, not a single hobby hive. I wanted to ask if they also send letters to people with large hornets nests or what they'd do about a hive of feral bees that was found in city limits.


My city says the same thing but I double checked with them and "agricultural activity" is defined as planning on making a profit from raising livestock, vegetable gardens, or honeybees. But I can have a personal garden and a hobby hive.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Contact the University of Minnesota to see if they can help you. They have a great entomology department at the St Paul campus. Headed up by Dr. Marla Spivak. They may be able to shake the political tree for you.


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## Beesty (May 20, 2011)

remind me never to get abejorro upset with me in any way


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## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

> Someone probably saw me in my suit working the hive and was freaked out

| Maybe you could rethink the "bee-suit" thing.

Joseph nailed it.

When a person sees a beekeeper wearing head to toe protection there is only one conclusion that can be drawn by someone unfamiliar with beekeeping: there is a threat in the neighborhood.

It's not unlike the reaction to a muzzled dog out for a walk: where does it live and how do I avoid it?

Bees can't be avoided, they come visiting....

When neighbors see a beek in the yard wearing a head veil dressed in T-shirt and shorts they don't see someone armored for war, they see somebody being sensible.

Depending on your mood, here's a tactic to consider.

Move the bees but not the hive. Leave the hive in your backyard and wait to see what the city does. If it tries to fine you, fight them on the grounds that you don't have bees. If more complaints are made, you know it is a neighbor with line of sight.

If you wind up in front of the council you can point out how irrational the fears are because all you have in your yard are empty boxes.

Another thing to try is check activity in your area and try to locate a feral hive in someone's roof or wall or.... You can then ask questions like why the person living at xxxx has not been cited for keeping bees.

Councils dislike bad publicity, and a sympathetic reporter can write a great story around the ridiculous situation of feral bees being allowed to fly free but a backyard beekeeper playing good citizen with placement and location in his backyard is pursued by a vengeful council. Given the sympathy for bees in the general public these days, it could also be made to appear ridiculous by a good writer.


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## rjg (Jul 5, 2010)

It really bites that youre going through this. Sounds like youre on the right track with your sense of humor and attitude. Maybe these guys can help. 
http://minnesotahoneyproducers.org/
RJ


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## Edcrosbys (Oct 26, 2010)

How many empty supers do you have? You might want to setup some "hives" in your front yard that are empty. Mow around them, set your beer on top, etc. Maybe try to desensitize people to those little white boxes. Good luck getting the rules changed!

Have you asked your wife if she called? I know it sounds far fetched (and probably is). But you've shown some real allergic reactions even though you're wearing a full suit. You keep a shot around, just in case. Not many other hobbies fall into that category. I understand and support you, as do many others here. But it can be a little odd from the outside.


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

If you are thinking about an ordinance change you might also look at other ordinances such as keeping a nuisance. If you have a neighbor complaining that might also fit under the nuisance ordinance. Nuisance ordinances are a catch all used to resolve neighborhood problems.

At some point if you don’t move your bees the city judge will be interpreting the ordinances involved. However, if you were charged with a nuisance violation then the actual neighbor complaining may have to sign the complaint and prove to a judge you are guilty of it.

Specific verbiage written in an ordinance prohibiting bees can be enforced by the city without a signed complaint from a citizen. In this case the city employee/city could be the complainant. 

Move the bees temporarily for now. Then contact the city council person in your district and request their help. The City Council and Mayor will be more inclined to consider the issue if presented by your local council person. Get on the list to speak at a city council meeting and go armed with all the benefits of keeping a reasonable number of bees and include facts such as how gentle they are. Take a photo with you to include one on disk to give to the newspaper person you invite to come to the council meeting. Obviously the picture should be you digging into a hive with no protection (so do it when safe to do so). 

It takes a long time to change a law, as it should. During that time I suggest you are 100% cooperative with the city’s request, especially if it’s the law. 

If you choose to stay put get an attorney to go with you to court. It will be easier to win a nuisance violation but highly unlikely you will win against an ordinance that has specific language prohibiting beekeeping. Either way, the neighbor that complained is still out there and may or may not have a valid concern.

Having spent 27 years in law enforcement I’ve been on the other side of the fence. Believe me if your city is large enough to have a code enforcement officer they will come to court armed to win, especially if you are uncooperative in anyway. And that officer has been to court more often than you have and probably your attorney. 

If the person complaining is unreasonable then the city should also be working with that person as well. 

It is also possible for your attorney to work with the city prosecutor to get a temporary agreement from the city judge to extent the time you have to move your bees or for the city to consider an alternative. 

The neighbor complaining is a citizen as well and their concerns are just as important as yours. Both may be right.

It is remotely possible the city employee responsible for code enforcement has no complaint and just was in the area and saw your bees. It can happen. If a police officer received the complaint they most likely would have come to your door to talk about it. It is very common that if a code enforcement officer (civilian employee) received the complaint their first step would have been to send you a letter and have probably done it before with other bee owners in your city.

Good luck and just like in beekeeping, city law is up to interpretation and are often highly conditional.


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> I stand corrected. You are screwed. From Chapture 90 (so much for help from Kansas:
> 
> 
> View attachment 293


Did you happen to find the date the ordinance or law was adopted? And is this a city ordinance or something out of state law?

Edit: Never mine, I found the ordinance on line and am reading it.

Appears your bees are not legal unless you meet the 10 acres, 300 feet rule and are in an agricultural district in the city. Ordinance was adopted in 1999 which is relatively not that long ago. Very old ordinances are easier to change. What is different now than in 1999 is the public awareness of bees and issues. That is your only hope of changing the ordinance. I'd think you might have a good chance the ordinance could be changed if you get a city council person on your side and only if you are cooperative with the city. Especially in a small town.


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## Beesty (May 20, 2011)

Note to self: do not upset Gord


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## Beesty (May 20, 2011)

Hi Wax,
Sorry to hear what you are going through, this may not be piratical but we went through a similar situation with cats.
Apparently you can not have 9 cats in the town we lived in, we did not intend to have so many but strays were common and my daughter would welcome them into our shed and my wife would feed them all.
The neighbors complained and with good reason, gardening is a way of life and a necessity in this area and that many cats can quickly foul a garden, and the noise...well you have heard cats before. 
The inspector showed up, a compassionate man, who understood that strays were attracted to us and even took one home to his child but had no option but to threaten us with fines. 
So what to do; we found a nice little 50 acre farm just outside of town. that was Nov 2008 and the bottom had just fallen out of the real estate market so we got a deal.
Never been happier, due to adoption and attrition we are now down to 2 nice cats two dogs, we have added farm animals and recently bees and have only lost city ordinances.
Keeping a large property is fun but a lot of work and the property market is week now so ask around if you can't afford outright then you may find a "country" couple looking to retire in town willing to trade properties.
Best of regards
Beesty


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

MDS said:


> Did you happen to find the date the ordinance or law was adopted? And is this a city ordinance or something out of state law?
> 
> Edit: Never mine, I found the ordinance on line and am reading it.


Agreed, the ordinance clearly defines bees as "Farm Animals" in Chapter 90, Section 1 (Definitions), Paragraph 3 (Farm Animals). 

Under Section 2 (Non Domestic Animals - Farm Animals), Paragraph B, it clearly states that Farm Animals shall only be kept in an agricultural district of the City, or on a residental lot of at least 10 acres....

So unless the OP's land is zoned as agriculture (or has a 10-acre lot), anyone recommending to ignore or fight the letter from the City is wrong (myself included earlier in this thead). Trying to get the City to amend an existing ordinance, while you are currently in violation of the ordinance (and under citation), _*is not *_the time and place to make the fight*. Get rid of the bees and _*then*_ pursue amendment of the ordinance. If you are sucessful (after a period of several months to years), move the bees back on your property.

*Kind of like being on trial for committing a crime and then attempting to change the law as your line of defense.


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## feltze (May 15, 2010)

I have run into other zoning issues with my county zoning office after a truck driver angered a neighbor on a tight turn near my house. They alerted the zoning office to (in their words) " an illegal business" existed on my property. My response was to go to the office and deal directly with the county representative. I was able to resolve the issue. But I subsequently planted screening vegetation through out the front of my property to keep prying eyes out and have been able to continue my hobbies without harrassment. 

Another issue we ran into in town at the store, was an ordinance on "banners" we had an illegal banner on the building (any banner or flag per the ordinance) and recieved an immediate $100 fine with a cavet of an additional $100 per day until removed. We removed it immediately and paid the fine. 

Home work with a local attorney and professional advice from the same was simply to comply. The system is difficult to change, primarily due to other abuses of residents and the ability of one complaint to not be overridden. All you need is one condescending neighbor and you will loose a zoneing issue.

My recommendation to you, move the hive, Contact the city office and advise you are complying as fast as you can. In six months put up a privacy fence around where you wish to place your hive and a few months after that move them back in. Ensuring that they are invisible from your property lines. 

Most likely you have a neighbor who has complained, less likely but possible a code enforcement officer noted your hives.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Another opption. Run for office. If ya can't beet um join um.


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

I agree with Nabber86 on the approach and that fighting the city with a clear written ordinance that is only 11 years old while you are in violation is not a good time to attempt to change it. Conforming to the ordinance will show the city you are a reasonable person. If you dig in, keep the hives, move them back in violation or start pointing out other things in the city where there are violations, you will be addressed as an unreasonable person even though you might not be and only sticking up for yourself. Right or wrong, it would take the focus off the issue.

This is especially true in a small town where the neighbor may not be going anywhere. I strongly suggest your city council person could become your friend. He or she gained trust with the neighbors when winning an election to represent them. He or she may have the ability to convince people and the verbal skills to go with it (not that you don't). He she also has a voting position as to if ordinances are changes. He or she has can gain support of the mayor (who might only vote in a tie) and certainly others on the council. 

If you do anything to violate the law intentionally the judge will rule against you. The city official sending you the warning is going to be checking to make sure you comply and keeping a record of it. Move the bees back and you are asking for a big problem. We may not all agree with a law but as citizens are required to follow it. Just because someone thinks the speed limit on a street is too low has no right to speed. 

All that being said, sorry you have to go through this and I hope you have the time and energy to get the ordinance amended. Like the original poster wrote, this may be a good thing. Maybe you will find a real nice place to keep your bees when someone calls you after reading about it in the paper during the ordinance review. Might be you find a great place to keep a lot more hives than you could by hiding one on your property.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

As a former city official I can tell you that if you get as many bee club members and farmers together as possible and come to the next city counsel meeting, (the local newspaper reporter should already be there but if not, invite them), and make your case you will get the ball rolling. That's just the beginning however. Feel it out after that. If the council is open, try the soft friendly approach. If you run into a wall, organize a protest at city hall with signs and loud speakers. The press loves that stuff and the city does not want that kind of publicity. 

You need a single spokesperson who knows what they're talking about to handle to the press. One mistake or false statement could spell disaster for your cause so choose this person wisely. Recruit other bee clubs nearby if you don't have enough members or you don't belong to one. If you keep up the pressure, they will change or abolish that ordinance. The last thing the Mayor of City Manager want is to come to work at city hall and have to sneak through the back door in order to avoid the press or protesters. The Mayor will eventually tell the City Manager to "make this thing go away". The CM will prepare a vote for the next city council agenda and that's when things get done. You need to be there for the vote as well.

I know this is a quick summary but in my experience, most officials care more about perception and votes than they do about the actual subject being debated.

Hopes this helps,

Charlie


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## spieker (Jun 26, 2009)

I heard of a similar case in a small town in Virginia. The beekeeper enlisted the help of the state bee inspector. They asked the town council to have a meeting in the beekeeper's back yard. The state inspector opened the hive and did an inspection with everyone watching. He explained what was going on in the hive, talked about bees and answered questions. The council members changed the law to allow bees.


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## Beerman (May 21, 2010)

Be careful with hiding them behind a privacy fence a lot of counties use satellite to look into your yard from above. I had a 4x6 fenced area for my recycling and I can have that as long as it is not in public view. The zoning department here said if they can see it from satellite it is considered "public view".


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

spieker said:


> I heard of a similar case in a small town in Virginia. The beekeeper enlisted the help of the state bee inspector. They asked the town council to have a meeting in the beekeeper's back yard. The state inspector opened the hive and did an inspection with everyone watching. He explained what was going on in the hive, talked about bees and answered questions. The council members changed the law to allow bees.


Very good idea!


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## msapostol (Sep 6, 2008)

Hi Wax,
We also got a notice from our city because of a complaint from a neighbor. Apparently, they got scared when they saw a swarm, but no one had cared the two years before.

I admit, it's quite scary to receive a letter full of legalese. They wanted to limit us to one hive and they wanted to limit the height of the hive. We had just spent a bunch of money for equipment too. We too had asked the city about regulations years before we had the hive, and they never replied. Also, we asked our adjacent neighbors, and they were cool with the hives.

My partner went to see the person who signed the city letter. It turned out that there were no regulations on the books, so that's why they never answered, and they were forced to throw together some kind of regulation after two beekeeping complaints (there was another one unrelated to us). Therefore, the silly hive height requirement. We had talked with our beekeeping teacher beforehand and he gave us a lot of info such as beekeepers can help stop the spread of Africanized bees by eradicating queens with aggressive tendencies, etc. 

We realized that this city official was caught between two opposing wants and had to navigate between everyone's wishes. My partner was very calm and gave this official lots of info about bees and beekeeping. She was up on the the CCD issue and did have sympathy towards their plight. She finally agreed, and asked if she could consult with us and our beekeeping teacher whenever she had a beekeeping question. We did have to pay a fee, but we were willing to show good faith in order to keep our hives. 

We also talked to the neighbor we suspect complained. They denied it of course, but we also offered them info and showed concern about their fears and told them to contact us if they have any problems or questions. 

It was a lot of work, but in the end we got to keep them. I hope this helps in some way. Good luck!


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