# give me the run down!



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

First year hives normally make it through the winter, it's the second year they have more probs with mites. That would be because of the timing between bee brood cycles vs. mite brood cycles. You have good chance of your hive making it through it's first winter just the way it is. I used apistan back in late 80's to early 90's, it worked well then. In the last 5 years I've used Apilife Var and Apiguard, and still had winter losses. Now I just use powder sugar dusting as a preventative measure once a month and as a treatment when mites are higher numbers once a week. I've had good success with this method so far, but I've also gotten more hygienic genetic strains of bees now, and I pay attention to pollen levels and feed patties when levels in the hive are low.


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## Tulip (May 27, 2008)

RayMarler said:


> First year hives normally make it through the winter, it's the second year they have more probs with mites. That would be because of the timing between bee brood cycles vs. mite brood cycles. You have good chance of your hive making it through it's first winter just the way it is. I used apistan back in late 80's to early 90's, it worked well then. In the last 5 years I've used Apilife Var and Apiguard, and still had winter losses. Now I just use powder sugar dusting as a preventative measure once a month and as a treatment when mites are higher numbers once a week. I've had good success with this method so far, but I've also gotten more hygienic genetic strains of bees now, and I pay attention to pollen levels and feed patties when levels in the hive are low.


Sorry for my ignorance but are you saying that pollen has something to do with mites :s

and thank you


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

pollen has to do with nutrition and health. healthy bees are more able to deal with mites and other stresses. pollen also stimulates brood which leads to more bees.


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## Tulip (May 27, 2008)

stangardener said:


> pollen has to do with nutrition and health. healthy bees are more able to deal with mites and other stresses. pollen also stimulates brood which leads to more bees.


So do you feed pollen year round (if they seem to need it) or just in the spring?? Interesting...


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Tulip said:


> So do you feed pollen year round (if they seem to need it) or just in the spring??


I, for one, rarely feed pollen or substitutes. The natural ebb and flow of pollen in my area helps trigger brood rearing and brood shutdown at their appropriate times. The only times that I feed pollen are in periods of unusual pollen dearth (for example a late freeze kills many of the spring buds and blooms) or if I want to stimulate brood rearing for early season nucs.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>(by the way... am I even in the right forum?? I was loosely equating "biological" to "organic")

Yes. Loosely in the sense that "certified organic" is the property of the USDA and this has nothing to do with certification.

>I currently have apistan strips in the hive because I caved to peer pressure.

Last time I treated with Apistan I lost all my hives to Varroa...

> I haven't seen any evidence of mites but I am told that they are there.

But if you haven't measured the mite load why do you think you need to treat?

> I have since learned that many mites are resistant to apistan...

Exactly.

>Soooo.... What do I do!?! I would really like to keep bees that have good natural resistance but with one hive that's a total crap shoot!

MEASURE!!!! Do a sugar roll. Do a mite drop count. Something to quantify the problem.

> I'm hoping to have 2 or 3 in the spring but that's a long winter away still!!

Always.

>People seem to be really insistent on prophylactic treatment with antibiotics but I really want to avoid that.

I haven't done that since 1976.

>Am I really taking a huge risk by not treating?

That depends on who you talk to.  Life is risky. Hives die from all sorts of things all the time. In my opinion treating is full of even more risks.

>How hard is it to be successful?

In a good year, it's easy. In a bad year a lot of bees don't make it because of long winters, short stores, not enough pollen in the fall, etc.

>What steps do you take to catch diseases early?

Keep the hives strong. make sure they are well fed and of adequate density to control their environment.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm

>I'm really at a loss. My strips are due to come out next week and I'm planning on doing a thorough inspection. I realize that it is late in the season to be asking these questions. I have been a terrible procrastinator since it all seems so overwhelming.

Take a deep breath.

"There are a few rules of thumb that are useful guides. One is that when you are confronted with some problem in the apiary and you do not know what to do, then do nothing. Matters are seldom made worse by doing nothing and are often made much worse by inept intervention." --The How-To-Do-It book of Beekeeping, Richard Taylor

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#donothing

>We do have mild winters here and bees are out-and-about to some degree year round, if that makes a difference

It means you can feed all winter if need be. If you have a pollen supply they can rear brood all winter...

>one more thing... why are there so few threads in this section 

Because many of us find what we are doing is quite simple. We raise natural bees on natural cell size with no treatments. That's pretty simple. Also many are discussing this on the yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers where you don't get berated for not treating your bees by those who believe in better living through chemistry.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> We raise natural bees on natural cell size with no treatments.


Or at least you raise bees on small cell. 



Michael Bush said:


> That's pretty simple.


Once again Michael, you're promoting small cell as simple to a beginning beekeeper. It isn't as simple as you suggest. 
Also, I didn't see anyone on this thread recommending anything near 'better living through chemistry'.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Or at least you raise bees on small cell.
> 
> - no where in michael bush's post did i see a referance to small cell
> 
> ...


-again i didn't see any referance much less promotion of small cell. simple or hard.

a note to tulip,
if you haven't read michael bush's web site you should.

for what it's worth i have bees on natural cell combs. the bees were able to do this because i use no foundation. i'm not promoting it, just sharing.


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## Tulip (May 27, 2008)

Michael Bush said:


> But if you haven't measured the mite load why do you think you need to treat?


Thank you for taking the time to respond to all of my questions!! 

To respond to your question (maybe it was rhetorical...), I treated my bees because I gave into peer pressure. I was told that they are "everywhere" and we all need to treat :doh:

Thanks again for all the info!!


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Learning curve*

Tulip, get some good literature to read during wintertime. You are going to get too many conflicting opinions here to make sense to a beginner. The Hive & the Honeybee is a good place to start. We all mean well but terminology, personal bias, different climates, etc. will make your head spin. Get a good foundation first in your own sweet time. The bees will teach you more than any person. Don't be discouraged by the loss of a colony. The comb & equipment is actually more valuable than the bees themselves, odd as that sounds, if they die save your stuff and start over. We have all done the same. Have fun the bees are beautiful.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

stangardener said:


> -again i didn't see any referance much less promotion of small cell. simple or hard.


Unless things have changed, Dee Lusby's web site that MB referenced is the home of small cell enthusiasts. While they won't berate you for nontreatment, any mention of *ANY* treatment, other than using small cell will get you severely chastised. That is not an open minded group.

Natural cell produced in foundationless frames, as you've described is better, in my opinion, but in my experience is often not a simple introduction either, especially for a newcomer.

Tulip, Tom G Laury's advice is the best, in my opinion. You'd do well to find some good beekeeping books and study independently this winter. Your mentors likely mean well but their old school methods will surely fail you. Many of the beekeeping decisions you will need to make in the future should be driven by personal knowledge, experience, and philosophy.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Unless things have changed, Dee Lusby's web site that MB referenced is the home of small cell enthusiasts. While they won't berate you for nontreatment, any mention of *ANY* treatment, other than using small cell will get you severely chastised. That is not an open minded group.
> 
> i don't disagree with the above quote but will add that in an open minded group you're likely to be berated and severly chastised for both treating and not treating instead of just treating
> 
> ...


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## Tulip (May 27, 2008)

Tom G. Laury said:


> Tulip, get some good literature to read during wintertime. You are going to get too many conflicting opinions here to make sense to a beginner. The Hive & the Honeybee is a good place to start. We all mean well but terminology, personal bias, different climates, etc. will make your head spin. Get a good foundation first in your own sweet time. The bees will teach you more than any person. Don't be discouraged by the loss of a colony. The comb & equipment is actually more valuable than the bees themselves, odd as that sounds, if they die save your stuff and start over. We have all done the same. Have fun the bees are beautiful.


Thanks for the book recommendation! The only book that I have read it "beekeeping for dummies" which is what was recommended to me originally.

As far as not feeling bad about losing a hive... I have already lost one and it was horrible, I feel so bad  It wasn't really my hive at the time, someone was just keeping it at my house but I was feeding it (when I was told to) and it starved over the winter. I then inherited the equipment and got the bees that I am worrying about now. 

I think that I would feel more Darwinian (letting the strong ones survive) about the whole thing if I had more hives but I have all my eggs in one basket (if you will ). I'm not saying that I'm not willing to just let nature take it's course but I'm just nervous, I _REALLY_ want them to make it.


ok, thanks for listening... i'm a worrier by nature and these bees are giving me plenty to worry about but i'm really excited that it may be possible to worry less and raise healthier bees


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## kaisfate (Oct 6, 2008)

Tom G. Laury said:


> You are going to get too many conflicting opinions here to make sense to a beginner. Have fun the bees are beautiful.


I think Tom's advice is fantastic...as a beginning beekeeper I have read and re-read every book my library had and read and re-read every post on this site and other. I think I was more confused when I started about which frames to use, which size boxes to use, to treat or not to treat etc. I finally just took a step back, found some boxes for a reasonable price and am going for it. Im jumping in with both feet and if this way doesnt work Ill try the next. I dont think the bees will care 

-=S


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## Tulip (May 27, 2008)

Can we talk a little bit more about small / natural cell size...

I'm sensing some controversy 

Right now my bees are on wooden frames but plastic foundations.

If I were to split my hive in the spring and go with natural or small cell, what should I do? Can you buy wax foundations that are small cell? Is it better to just start with a foundation-less frame and let the bees do their thing? I hear things about comb sagging, is that a problem? Anything else??


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## Tulip (May 27, 2008)

Michael Bush said:


> Keep the hives strong. make sure they are well fed and of adequate density to control their environment.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm


I just wanted to say THANK YOU for your website, I've been reading it every chance I get!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Or at least you raise bees on small cell.

Actually a mixture of both, but natural cell is my preference.

>>That's pretty simple.
>Once again Michael, you're promoting small cell as simple to a beginning beekeeper. It isn't as simple as you suggest.

Yes. It is. If you simply use PF120's (or PF100's) you'll get small cell right off the bat. If you use Honey Super Cell you'll get small cell right off the bat. If you use foundationless frames you get natural cell size in some respect right off the bat and clean wax. What is complicated about that? It's simply beekeeping using foundation with an appropriate cell size or letting the bees do what they've been doing for millions of years--build their own comb their own way, and what beekeepers have been doing for hundreds of years, getting them to do so in a frame.

>Also, I didn't see anyone on this thread recommending anything near 'better living through chemistry'.

The people who pressured him into treating apparently were.


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## kirk-o (Feb 2, 2007)

Hurray for Natural cell and no treatments Works For Me
kirk-o


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> It's simply beekeeping using foundation with an appropriate cell size.


It is only appropriate for a very few races of bees. If the beekeeper doesn't coincidentally have one of those uncommon races, then forcing the bees to produce brood in unnaturally small cells will result in distress in the developing brood. A beginning beekeeper will likely not recognized the resulting symptoms. I think pressuring new beekeepers to go to small cell is just as bad as the 'better living through chemicals' bunch. Both are likely to result in failure, frustration and needless abandoning of the hobby. 



Michael Bush said:


> or letting the bees do what they've been doing for millions of years--build their own comb their own way,.


In the wild this isn't a problem. In our moveable frame boxes it is more complicated. Inserting a foundationless frame into the middle of a brood nest in spring will typically result in a frame full of drone cells;something that wouldn't happen in a natural nest. One example of a problem is that frame(s) full of drone cells in the center of the brood nest over an entire year result in a broken brood area later in the season...the bees fill the drone cells with honey when drone production slows. Without a contiguous brood area, the colony has trouble keeping the developing brood at appropriate incubation temps during cool weather. A beginning beekeeper may not recogize the problem. There are other complications.

I'll say it again. It isn't as simple as you imply. And, I strongly believe that you are doing new beekeepers a disservice by saying so.



Michael Bush said:


> The people who pressured him into treating apparently were.


So, your idea is to send this new beekeeper to Dee Lusby's board where he/she will not feel any pressure by a group of closed minded indiviuals. Great idea.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It is only appropriate for a very few races of bees. If the beekeeper doesn't coincidentally have one of those uncommon races, then forcing the bees to produce brood in unnaturally small cells will result in distress in the developing brood.

If you put them on natural cell you won't be forcing them into anything. But I've had no problems with small cell (either Honey Super Cell, waxed PermaComb, Mann Lakes PF120s and PF100s or 4.9mm wax) forcing them into anything they wouldn't build on the foundationless frames. I've LET them build lots of 4.6mm to 4.9mm comb without any help from me. And that was starting off with a mixture of Buckfasts, Carniolans, Italians, Russians and Harbos.

> A beginning beekeeper will likely not recognized the resulting symptoms.

What symptoms? I don't see any stress. The stress is forcing them up to 5.4mm.

> I think pressuring new beekeepers to go to small cell is just as bad as the 'better living through chemicals' bunch.

I like to think I'm offering alternatives. I get many emails every day from people who were RELIEVED to find ANYONE who said it was possible to raise bees without chemicals as they were on the verge of not even starting to keep bees because all they were told was all the chemicals they should use and when by the books and the classes they took. None of these are compatible with the mentality of most people who want to keep bees.

> Both are likely to result in failure, frustration and needless abandoning of the hobby.

As do using chemicals and poisoning. I've lost as many bees while treating as I ever did not treating before I regressed. I've lost a lot less since I've regressed.

>In the wild this isn't a problem. In our moveable frame boxes it is more complicated. Inserting a foundationless frame into the middle of a brood nest in spring will typically result in a frame full of drone cells;something that wouldn't happen in a natural nest.

And easily remedied by sliding it to the outside.

> One example of a problem is that frame(s) full of drone cells in the center of the brood nest over an entire year result in a broken brood area later in the season...the bees fill the drone cells with honey when drone production slows. Without a contiguous brood area, the colony has trouble keeping the developing brood at appropriate incubation temps during cool weather. A beginning beekeeper may not recogize the problem.

Most of the more experienced ones don't seem to recognize such things either. But the problem is easy enough to deal with, and if you start with foundationless, it won't even occur.

>I'll say it again. It isn't as simple as you imply.

No. It's actually simpler. A lot of time is wasted trying to explain things that will take care of themselves anyway. Quite simply, if you want small cell, just buy PF120s (or PF100s for deeps) from Mann Lake, which is not even being sold as small cell and is better accepted than any plastic frames I've used before and do nothing else. The bees do not rework it to any significant degree and you'll have small cell with not other effort or complexity than you would have spent buying Pierco frames and putting the beeson those.

Or, give them foundationless and let them do what they do.

> And, I strongly believe that you are doing new beekeepers a disservice by saying so.

Apparently you do believe that. The responses I get from those new beekeepers would not support that belief.

>So, your idea is to send this new beekeeper to Dee Lusby's board where he/she will not feel any pressure by a group of closed minded indiviuals. Great idea.

If you want to keep bees without treatments, it's a great place to find out how. It is the focus of that group.


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## Tulip (May 27, 2008)

beemandan said:


> So, your idea is to send this new beekeeper to Dee Lusby's board where he/she will not feel any pressure by a group of closed minded indiviuals. Great idea.


Hi! I'm just looking for ideas  I'm know that there are a lot of different opinions about keeping bees and I know that ultimately I just have to make my own decisions but I am here to listen to what everyone has to say. I really do enjoy the discussion here but right now I am looking for information on more natural ways of keeping bees, that's what I came asking for. I do not feel threatened by reading information from a group of people who practice a certain type of beekeeping. I appreciate your responses to the posts but not the condescending sarcasm. 

So, what kind of frames and foundations do you use? What treatments do you feel have been necessary? I'd love to hear more!


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## Tulip (May 27, 2008)

Michael Bush said:


> No. It's actually simpler. A lot of time is wasted trying to explain things that will take care of themselves anyway. Quite simply, if you want small cell, just buy PF120s (or PF100s for deeps) from Mann Lake, which is not even being sold as small cell and is better accepted than any plastic frames I've used before and do nothing else. The bees do not rework it to any significant degree and you'll have small cell with not other effort or complexity than you would have spent buying Pierco frames and putting the beeson those.
> 
> Or, give them foundationless and let them do what they do.


If you don't mind explaining, how does foundationless work? If I split my hive, can I just give them a bunch of empty frames and let them go for it? Is there anything that I have to look out for? How can I convert my existing hive?
If there is good info somewhere else, you could just point me in that direction.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> What symptoms? I don't see any stress. The stress is forcing them up to 5.4mm. .


You and I have had this dialog before. Either I didn’t make enough of an impression for you to remember or you just want me to repeat myself. My experience with small cell could not have been more different than yours. I have a diverse mix of races in my yards, Italians, Carniolans, ferals, Russians, etc. Most of my bees are a mix of those. My bees have no pedigree. I read Michael Bush’s recommendations to_ ‘move your bees to small cell and stop treating. Its as simple as that.’_ I did as you advised. Some never successfully managed 5.1mm. Of those that did, many could never get the ‘hang’ of 4.9. Of those that figured out 4.9, many ‘forgot’ by the next season. The comb they drew was a disaster, unsuitable for anything in many cases. I put some drawn small cell in the hives that couldn’t draw 5.1 and in several cases the queens refused to lay in the small cell. For the first time ever I had EFB-like symptoms. Brown, dying larvae. Only in my ‘regressed’ hives. I replaced queens to no avail. Those colonies limped along for a season and a half before I broke down, and for the first time ever used terramycin in my own hives. All the while my conventional cell hives boomed along. 

Of course you're also forgetting the latest. It'll take years (how many depends on who you ask) for your small cell bees to become effective at managing varroa. Also, there can't be any conventional hives within your small cell hive's forage range. Otherwise the mites migrate to the small cell hives.

Do you really think this is the kind of stuff you want a newcomer to have to add to the lessons they need to learn?



Michael Bush said:


> I like to think I'm offering alternatives. I get many emails every day from people who were RELIEVED to find ANYONE who said it was possible to raise bees without chemicals .


Where have you been Michael? I see posts all the time on Beesource by conventional cell beekeepers who state unequivocally that they don’t treat. I talked to numerous beekeepers who don’t treat. I know that the small cell crowd refuse to believe it. Their way is the only way…..very open minded.



Michael Bush said:


> > Both are likely to result in failure, frustration and needless abandoning of the hobby.
> As do using chemicals and poisoning. . .


I think you’ve missed my point. I’m not advocating chemicals. I’m asking you to recommend that new beekeepers get educated and experienced before trying more complicated ‘treatments’. Like it or not, small cell is a treatment that has its own problems.



Michael Bush said:


> Inserting a foundationless frame into the middle of a brood nest in spring will typically result in a frame full of drone cells;something that wouldn't happen in a natural nest.
> And easily remedied by sliding it to the outside. .


Thank you. You made my point for me. How do you know you’d need to move those frames to the outside? Experience. You understand nest architecture. A newcomer won’t.



Michael Bush said:


> Most of the more experienced ones don't seem to recognize such things either. But the problem is easy enough to deal with, and if you start with foundationless, it won't even occur.


And again, this is your experience talking. And even if you start fully foundationless, each year as you do splits you will insert new frames. To successfully manage a foundationless hive you must understand nest dynamics. It looks simple to you but will not to a beginner.



Michael Bush said:


> > And, I strongly believe that you are doing new beekeepers a disservice by saying so.
> 
> Apparently you do believe that. The responses I get from those new beekeepers would not support that belief.


Its likely that all of the new beekeepers who’ve believed it was all so simple, followed your advice and failed are probably embarrassed that they couldn’t even manage something so simple…..they’re not going to be your penpals.



Michael Bush said:


> >So, your idea is to send this new beekeeper to Dee Lusby's board where he/she will not feel any pressure by a group of closed minded indiviuals. Great idea.
> If you want to keep bees without treatments, it's a great place to find out how. It is the focus of that group.


No, the focus of the group is small cell 'a la’ Dee Lusby..


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>For the first time ever I had EFB-like symptoms. Brown, dying larvae. Only in my ‘regressed’ hives. I replaced queens to no avail. Those colonies limped along for a season and a half before I broke down, and for the first time ever used terramycin in my own hives. All the while my conventional cell hives boomed along.

I have not heard of anyone else having these particular problems. Some problems getting 4.9m comb perhaps, and perhaps it's overrated getting any particular exact size when natural size should do fine.

>>I like to think I'm offering alternatives. I get many emails every day from people who were RELIEVED to find ANYONE who said it was possible to raise bees without chemicals.
>Where have you been Michael? I see posts all the time on Beesource by conventional cell beekeepers who state unequivocally that they don’t treat. I talked to numerous beekeepers who don’t treat. I know that the small cell crowd refuse to believe it. Their way is the only way…..very open minded.

I went through this same experience as these new beekeepers. I sort of dropped out of the "beekeeping community" back in the 80's and let myu subscription to ABJ expire when it all sounded the same and every edition was either a rehash of the same old beekeeping concepts. The bees were doing find on their own with no treatments and I was happy with the outcomes. But when they started dying from Varroa I had to find out what was going on and what to do, and the only suggestions were pesticides in my hive. Dee Lusby was the first person (and for several years the only person) I heard say it was possible to keep bees without them. After having tried not treating on large cell and failing every time, I became a lurker on here because of the "for experienced beekeepers only" phrase on the small cell entry in the Brushy Mountain catalog. So after reading everything I could on here, I tried small and natural cell (I am a skeptic and needed to see what the bees would build). My Varroa issues resolved as soon as I did that. It was years after that before I heard ANYONE say they were keeping bees without Varroa treatments and succeeding at any level. Still most of those say they have high losses. Only recently has Bee Culture started an editorial policy that seems to support not treating and only recently have any of the entomologists started saying that not treating is actually a good idea. Still most new comers go to classes and training and read the books that ALL emphasizes that you HAVE to treat and this causes many to walk away because they don't wish to take part in such an artificial system.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If you don't mind explaining, how does foundationless work?

It's how beekeeping was done from the beginning of time until about the early 1900s. No on in the US was even making extractors until the 1880s and they didn't catch on to a great deal until later than that. The standard honey was comb honey and the standard frame was a beveled top bar. With some kind of guide (a beveled top bar, a strip of wood, a strip of wax or wax foundation) down the middle of the frame the bees usually build the comb in the center of that guide. (just like they USUALLY build comb on foundation, but not always).

> If I split my hive, can I just give them a bunch of empty frames and let them go for it?

No. They need some kind of guide.

> Is there anything that I have to look out for?

I'd watch them from the start and make sure they get going correctly. If a comb is out of line, push it back in line. If it's out of the frame altogether, cut it out and tie it in the frame.

> How can I convert my existing hive?

You can feed empty frames between two drawn BROOD combs even without a guide. Repeat and move drones to the outside until you have a box of natural comb. An empty frame between two open honey frames will not work.

>If there is good info somewhere else, you could just point me in that direction.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

Historical perspective of foundation:
Beginning of beekeeping until 1857.. nothing but natural comb.
1857 Wax-comb foundation invented by Johannes Mehring but does not become commonly used.
1865 centrifugal honey extractor invented by Major Hruschka
1868 wax foundation was reported in the American Bee Journal
1873 Wax-comb foundation invented by Frederic Weiss
1876 A. I. Root hired a man by the name of A. Washburn to mill a foundation press.
by the late 1880s foundation is in common usage as is foundationless and starter strips. Foundation manufacturers propagandize for foundation mostly selling the idea of no drones.
1880's H.O. Peabody begans manufacturing extractors
1880's-1970's foundation is in more common usage. Extracting has become the norm somewhere in there. Foundationless and starter strips still being used by many and still being propagandized against by the bee magazines and books, published, of course, by those making foundation but the number of people doing this has decreased significantly.
2000's foundation is still in common usage. Foundationless and starter strips still being used by many and still being propagandized against by the bee magazines and books, now to control Varroa by controlling drones and supposedly to make more honey by saving the bees making so much wax. published, of course, by those making foundation. Several people are going back to foundationless. Charles Martin Simon is one of those proponents.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

More historical info on foundationless frames:

Munn, W. Augustus "A description of the bar-and-frame hive"
http://bees.library.cornell.edu/cgi...dno=5017637;didno=5017637;view=image;seq=0011

King, N.H., The bee-keeper's text book...
"it had long been known that bees would start and build their combs with considerable regularity from strips paces across the top of the hive, by which the combs could be lifted out by cutting loose their side attachments from the hive. These "bars" led to "bar frames," and we cannot better describe and illustrate the transition than by quoting from "Taylor's Bee-keepers' Manuel," (first published in 1838,) 6th London edition, 1860. On page 73, he says, "for the purpose of preventing the bees from attaching the combs to the glass, thin upright strips of wood, rather more than half an inch thick, are tacked upder the center of each bar at both ends extending from the top to the bottom inside of the hive.""-pg 49
http://bees.library.cornell.edu/cgi...ew=image;seq=49;page=root;size=s;frm=frameset

Miner, T.B., The American bee keeper's manual
Bees drawing comb from the bottom up and using cross bars to reinforce foundationless combs.
http://bees.library.cornell.edu/cgi...dno=5707350;didno=5707350;view=image;seq=0195

"The centre bars are places suitable for brood-combs and the outside bars are wider apart, and adapted to store-combs."-pg 138
http://bees.library.cornell.edu/cgi...w=image;seq=139;page=root;size=s;frm=frameset

Neighbour, Alfred, The apiary, or, Bees, bee0hives, and bee culture...
""Improved Comb Bar.--Mr. Woodbury says that this little contrivance has proved very effectual in securing straight combs when guide combs are not obtainable. The lower angles are rounded off whilst a central rib is added of about 1/8 of an inch in breadth and depth. This centreal rib extends to within 1/2 an inch of each end, where it is removed in order to admit of the bar fitting into the usual notch. All that is necessary to insure the regular formation of combs is, to coat the underneath surface of the central rib with melted wax. Mr. Woodbury further says, "my practice is to use plan bars, whenever guide-combs are attainable, as these can be attached with much greater facility to a plain than to a ribbed bar; but whenever I put in a bar without comb, I alays use one of the improved ones. By this method , crooked and irregular combs are altogether unknown in my apiary." Most of our bars are made with the ridge; but should any of our customers prefer the flat ones, we keep a few to supply their requirements"-pg 39
http://bees.library.cornell.edu/cgi...dno=5707363;didno=5707363;view=image;seq=0050


Benton, Frank, The honey bee: a manual of instruction in apiculture.
"Top bars have been made by some hive manufacturers from one-fourth-inch to three-eights-inch strips, strengthened somewhat by a very thin strip placed edgewise on the underside as a comb guide; but such bars are much too light and will sage when filled with honey or with brood and honey..."-pg 42
http://bees.library.cornell.edu/cgi...ew=image;seq=45;page=root;size=s;frm=frameset


Root, A.I., ABC of bee culture
"Comb Guide.--Generally a wooden edge, or a strip of comb or fdn., in the top of a frame or box, on which comb is to be built."-pg 251
http://bees.library.cornell.edu/cgi...633;q1=comb guide;size=l;frm=frameset;seq=271

"As the comb guide is 9-16, and the cut in the end bar 3/4, we have 3-16 left for whole wood in the top bar, as at A, and the table should be set, as to leave just this amount of wood uncut. Even if the fdn. is fastened in the frames with melted wax as many do, I would have such a comb guide, because it adds so much to the strength of the frame, and obviates the necessity of having a very heavy top bar. The bees will, in time, build their combs right over such a comb guide, and use the cells above the brood for honey."
http://bees.library.cornell.edu/cgi...633;q1=comb guide;size=l;frm=frameset;seq=117


Harbison, J.S., The bee-keeper's directory...
"A comb guide proper is a sharp edge or corner in the frame, from which the comb is to depend, the bees usually choosing to follow this edge, rather than diverge to an even surface; portions of comb are sometimes used for the same purpose."-footnote at the bottom of page 280 and 281
http://bees.library.cornell.edu/cgi...dno=5707226;didno=5707226;view=image;seq=0320


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*I have never used chemical treatments for mites.*

I too had let my subscriptions to all bee periodicals lapse and though I kept a few hives, I was focused on other interests and was completely unaware when AHB invaded the US, and also entirely unaware of tracheal mites and _Varroa_ mites. Then I relocated from Santa Fe, New Mexico to Tucson/Marana Arizona, leaving my bees behind.

Shortly after settling in I wanted to get back into bees, so I learned of a neighbor with a feral hive established beneath their mobile home. I removed this colony, established it in modern equipment and promptly began splitting it to create more. 

Fast-forward about four years and I now have about eight colonies, all created by splits, and splits of splits. I re-subscribed to the two main bee periodicals -- and WOW, I learn about AHB and mites. How basically my colonies should be so thoroughly AHB that I shouldn't be able to approach them without being savagely attacked, and that most should have expired during their second season from PMS (Parasitic Mite Syndrome). I did take a look for _Varroa_ and discovered them to be fairly common in all of my hives. But I decided not to tell my bees that the mites should have done them in, they didn't seem to care.

Later I learned about the management techniques of using small-cell and natural-cell, but only incorporated them into my apiaries, because they seem a fascinating curiosity, not because I believed them to be necessary for mite management. After-all my colonies had been doing fine for about six years before I even started using small-cell.


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## Tulip (May 27, 2008)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Later I learned about the management techniques of using small-cell and natural-cell, but only incorporated them into my apiaries, because they seem a fascinating curiosity, not because I believed them to be necessary for mite management. After-all my colonies had been doing fine for about six years before I even started using small-cell.


Thank YOU!!!


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Joseph Clemens said:


> *I have never used chemical treatments for mites.*
> 
> Lovely story Joseph. So how do you explain the collapse of bee colonies due to varroa throughout the remainder of the world while yours ignored it? You believe that your special beekeeping skills kept yours healthy while nearly everyone elses died? Did you have some secret?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Fast-forward about four years and I now have about eight colonies, all created by splits, and splits of splits.


Just so I understand it Joseph. You presently have eight hives all decended from that original feral swarm? Is that correct?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Honestly, I cannot say why I have had the success I've had -- I can't really attribute it to small-cell, or race of bees, certainly not to any treatments I've tried. Perhaps it's a combination of factors, maybe weather, maybe isolation from any agriculture, maybe the genetics of the bees I originally started with, maybe none of these factors - could be something else, entirely. I am a curious guy and would certainly like a definitive answer, but don't know anyone I would trust to give me one - unless they had extremely compelling evidence. If I knew the reason for my success, so far, I would certainly share it with the world.

Earlier this year, in December, I began feeding sugar syrup and pollen supplement for the first time, ever, this seemed to really boost populations prior to our Mesquite honeyflow and provided bees and brood to populate nucs, but two colonies developed what appeared to be PMS symptoms that seemed to be very tenacious (brood was dying), until several weeks after I replaced their queens. This was the first time I'd ever had dying brood fit that described as symptomatic of PMS.

-------------------
Nope, actually its more than twelve years since I relocated here to Tucson, Arizona, and I only have one hive related to those original cut-out bees. I keep it, by itself, at my original apiary location in Marana, Arizona. It is housed in a stack of three, 10-frame medium supers, with an ordinary bottom board and a flat migratory cover. I open it up about twice a year to see how they're getting on - other than that I just let them do their own thing. They've been like that now, going on four years.

At my other apiary I work to keep all the queens Cordovan Italian (original stock came from Koehnen's, but I raise my own replacement queens). There are twenty full-size colonies in 8-frame medium supers and thirty 5-frame medium nucs to mate queens, hold them for QA and until they're needed.


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## Bean (Jun 13, 2004)

Started reading this thread out of curiosity, now interested. 
Small Cell Question: Can you have hives with two different sizes of cell in the same yard? Each hive would have only one size, but two hives sitting side-by-side would have different sizes.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Small Cell Question: Can you have hives with two different sizes of cell in the same yard? Each hive would have only one size, but two hives sitting side-by-side would have different sizes.

Certainly. The only question is when trying any method of controlling Varroa, how much do the mites drift with the drones and the robbers and the drifting workers? I don't know that answer. I just know the question.


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