# Sugar dusting as only treatment?



## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

Hi all, is here anone using sugar dusting as the only varroa treatment ? Is it possible and viable ( I have only ten hives right now). Next option is oxalic acid vapor but I would definitely prefer sugar dusting as OA has some serious health repercussions.
What technique do you use. Puffing or just pouring cups of sugar like Randy Oliver?

I thought about trying fgmo fogging but I am not sure I can find here a fogger.

Cheers from Serbia where bees in my neighborhood are working on linden trees.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

You could use nothing but powdered sugar on 10 hives if you were 
willing to do the sticky-board tracking required to verify that your
efforts were having the desired effect.

I dusted with powdered sugar from 2001 until 2005, but never expanded
the practice beyond the 100 hives assigned to this treatment.

It is an effective treatment, but *only* if one follows the methods as 
outlined in the ABJ article that first documented the practice, and 
"poofs" both sides of each brood chamber frame. 

The "Dowda Method" (as copied without giving any credit by Randy Oliver) 
of dumping sugar on the top bars and then bushing the sugar down 
between the frames clearly cannot treat all the bees, and clearly does not 
produce enough of the 5 to 15 micron sized particles required to clog the
varroa tarsal pads. Anything other than "poofing" has not yet been verified 
by controlled studies as having adequate control over varroa.

So, does it scale up to hundreds of colonies? Not very well.

Is it a good approach to treating a colony "with supers on"? 
Sure, but the sugar is going somewhere, I think some of it will end up in 
the honey.

Is it cheap and easy to teach? Yes.

Can it hurt? Never.

I'd go for sugar in late spring and summer, and oxalic in late fall when the
bees are "broodless". If a colony was in real danger of being overrun with
varroa, I'd cage the queen with a press-in queen cage and run 
two passes of oxalic one brood cycle apart.


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## MollySue'sHoney (Apr 10, 2008)

Right now the only treatment I have used is Screened Bottom Boards. One hive I inherited was pretty badly infested. I did dust it with sugar and it is now booming along.

Molim.


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

*SBB is not enough!*

Screened bottom board is no way a "treatment" and definitely not enough to help against varroa if it actually helps at all against that pest. Also sugar dusting once is not enough because most of the varroa is hidden inside the capped brood. So you need to treat at least 4 times every 5 days or even more. And still its questionable if it will work satisfying for variety of reasons. So be very careful or you will be very sorry - because you will probably loose your bees this way. 

Cheers


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

"Anything other than "poofing" [both sides of frames; O.B.??] has not yet been verified by controlled studies as having adequate control over varroa'.-J.Fischer.

"So you need to treat at least 4 times every 5 days or even more".- sasha.

Well,, I might as well use up that Succrocide that I bought 2 years ago than. OB.


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## golddust-twins (Sep 8, 2007)

*Succrocide*

>Well,, I might as well use up that Succrocide that I bought 2 years ago than. OB.<

Oldbee, 
Did you get some of that goodie too? I thought I was the only one.


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## MollySue'sHoney (Apr 10, 2008)

Sasha said:


> Screened bottom board is no way a "treatment" and definitely not enough to help against varroa if it actually helps at all against that pest. Also sugar dusting once is not enough because most of the varroa is hidden inside the capped brood. So you need to treat at least 4 times every 5 days or even more. And still its questionable if it will work satisfying for variety of reasons. So be very careful or you will be very sorry - because you will probably loose your bees this way.
> 
> Cheers


Sasha,
I know that they are not 'treatments'. I also am very aware of the life cycle of the mite. I do know that for some reason that I cannot pin down completely my hives has very little varroa compared to others in the area. I've been keeping bees almost all my life. Sometimes things like this happen.

All my hives are of small bees with a lot of feral genes. None of them has much of a varroa load at all.

Thanks for your concern. I appreciate it. So that you know what I meant by treating with the sugar. That is not a one time application. When I get a colony with a heavy load I apply the sugar every four days over a period of time. For me it seems to work.

Good day!


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

*Fogging*

Sasha 
Here is a link to forestry supply inc for the burgess fogger. It is 68.00


http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/View_Catalog_Page.asp?mi=2623


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

*I use only Powdered Sugar and Screeneed Bottom Boards*

Hi Jim, 
I am going to have to disagree with you on ‘poofing’ the powdered sugar on each frame, which is a lot more labor intensive that sifting.
We have been using only powdered sugar and screened bottom boards going into our 4th year. Our mite counts have been very low to none the last two years. We have not lost any hives from Varroa and have rescued some very infested hives coming into spring 2005 with very high counts using just powdered sugar.
We do not use the poof method, we just sift it with a flour sifter or use a 1/8” screen like Randy Oliver. Our first treatments knocked down 1000’s of mites. I have a picture posted of one of our first treatments. Unfortunately I didn’t take a picture of the powdered sugar we removed after the first couple of hours, it was black with mites. After removing the sugar, we inserted an oiled sticky board for 24 hours and here is the picture
http://countryrubes.com/information/mitesstickyboardpictu.html We started to count those mites and stopped at 1400. 
When Tom Dowda first published his blurb in American Bee Journal in March of 2005, he used the poof method. I wrote him, telling him he was working too hard and told him about the massive mite drops using a sifter and brushing the top frames. He changed his methods and published it in his next article.
And as far as grooming, if you do this method, you get exceptionally high mite counts on your stickies for as many as 4 days after you dust with powdered sugar. In the beginning, I was a mite counting maniac and realized I couldn’t get an accurate drop until the 5th day. 
We dust 5 times a year, I have a timeline that we use here
http://countryrubes.com/instructions/powderedsugartimeline.html 

This is a report from Apimondia in Africa on Dr. Fakhimzadeh’s talk.

“ Perhaps most intriguing was K. Fakhmzadeh’s study using powdered sugar as a control measure. Evidence in the United States shows that powdered sugar is a reasonable way to show relative mite infestation levels. This technique developed at the University of Nebraska, however, has not been considered effective as a control in the nest, especially when brood was present, since mites ensconced in brood cells were not vulnerable <http://entomology.unl.edu/beekpg/tidings/btid2000/btdjan00.htm#Article2>. >. Dr. Fakhimzadeh’s study showed a mite knock down with powdered sugar of 91% with direct dusting and 62% with air- assisted dusting. Sugar dusting efficiency in knocking down the Varroa in some cases was similar to that reported for mite kill in studies using chemical applications. The study also compared the technique to using carbon dioxide (CO2) in conjunction with powdered sugar. It was shown that CO2 in combination with sugar or alone did not increase the mite fall so the author recommended not using it as part the control of V. destructor.”

Mr. Fakhimzadeh’s results reconfirm that powdered sugar treatment as described does not have any obvious side effect on the capped brood nor the growth of the bee population. In addition, no queen loss occurred even if the treatment was applied as frequently as every three days for a period of one month. It was concluded that sugar dusting alone is a useful tool, which could be included in integrated mite management programs. Though not reported in his paper Mr. Fakhimzadeh said in his presentation that particle size is important, and small particles of five microns was optimal. Most icing sugar is a mixture of particle sizes, thus, its present configuration (as found in most stores) is variable and this would presumably affect mite control efficiency Again, since mites sealed in brood cells are affected, several applications would be necessary to ensure good control.’

Here it is stated that icing sugar has the right particle sizes and doesn’t even mention sifting. You do have to sift, that powdered sugar is lumpy. 
Sincerely submitted,
Janet


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

i graduated to dumping the sugar onto window screen instead of 1/8" mesh this year.
it goes through fine and can't do anything but help make the particles smaller.


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## Romahawk (Jul 11, 2005)

When using the powdered sugar method of mite control do you break down the double deep hive body and spread sugar on the top of each one or do you just put the scren on the top deep and apply the sugar. How many pounds of sugar do you use per application? Can this be done with supers on or does it contaminate the honey crop? Is this a spring and fall application or can it be used anytime?


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

Thanks, Mr. Fischer for sharing your experience and knowledge. It is important to follow scientifically tested techniques.
Although I tried to do this by the protocol, for some reason I think I didn't do it very well. The plastic bottle I used wasn't to practical, it was a wet day, and I must confess I didn't see to much sugar dust go out of the "device". I saw just very lite sugar dust (smoke) which was almost invisible, and you could barely see the difference between dusted bees and those not yet dusted. In this configuration I used I think it wouldn't work. Later I tried just pouring sugar on top of the hive and definitely, the bees were far better covered ( at leasat those close to top bars) with sugar (of all sizes ). Also it was very,very, labor intensive, a fact that I could swallow but only if I am 100% sure that I am doing it in a right way. I need to do further research and try to find a better way of "poofing" the sugar dust on frames.
Meanwhile I am wiling to test also the other method of just pouring sugar dust on top bars and see if it really works. After all there are also other varroa treatments existing and if sugar dusting doesn't work I wont hesitate to use them. This because I lost 9 out of 10 hives last winter. Otherwise my plan is to keep bees as much as possible in an "organic" way.



Jim Fischer said:


> You could use nothing but powdered sugar on 10 hives if you were
> willing to do the sticky-board tracking required to verify that your
> efforts were having the desired effect.
> 
> ...


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

Hi Lawrence, good to hear that. For some reason I felt from your post that you are a novice which doesn't understand the varroa problem very well. But since you are an experienced beekeeper that is ok and am really glad that you dont have serious varroa problems. Often people on forums like this are giving advices like they are professionals when they really are not. So its hard to distinguish good advice from bad. That was why I wanted to warn you. 
Cheers

PS: "Molim" means "Please" on Serbian/Croatian




MollySue'sHoney said:


> Sasha,
> I know that they are not 'treatments'. I also am very aware of the life cycle of the mite. I do know that for some reason that I cannot pin down completely my hives has very little varroa compared to others in the area. I've been keeping bees almost all my life. Sometimes things like this happen.
> 
> All my hives are of small bees with a lot of feral genes. None of them has much of a varroa load at all.
> ...


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

Thanks, danno, but I live in Serbia so I can't buy it.

Sasha



danno said:


> Sasha
> Here is a link to forestry supply inc for the burgess fogger. It is 68.00
> 
> 
> http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/View_Catalog_Page.asp?mi=2623


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## MollySue'sHoney (Apr 10, 2008)

Dobro Jutro Sasha,
No problem. Yep, molim is 'please'. My brother in law is Croatian. I'm trying to learn the language and both alphabets. Beautiful part of the in which you live.

I'm curious. You mentioned linden tress. Is that the same linden that we Americans call Basswood?


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

Dobro vece, Lawrence

My mistake. I think linden is on German (know a little bit of that). We call it bagrem, you will know it as black locust.
http://www.naturephoto-cz.com/photos/others/black-locust-25400.jpg
Anyway my bees (nucs) are on Danube river (border between Serbia and Croatia)now where they should gather honeydew - I dont htink there will be any considerable amount of it this year. 

Its good to learn languages. Who knows maybe one day you come to see this part of the world.

Anyway, I am thinking of using FGMO in combination with sugar dusting. But, since I don't have ( or am not aware ) access to foggers here, I am thinking of using only the cords soaked in FGMO. But also I don't know of any cotton ropes  here . Could I use some cotton cloth pieces maybe wrapped into something like a rope 
Always some kind of improvisation...


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## thinkharder (Jun 13, 2008)

> It is an effective treatment, but only if one follows the methods as
> outlined in the ABJ article that first documented the practice, and
> "poofs" both sides of each brood chamber frame.


Hello. I'm just starting beekeeping with one hive. I'd like to know what this ABJ article is and where to find it, please.

Thanks,
Karen


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I used FGMO for 2 years without effect. It may work now with Thymol but only because of the Thymol.

My 2 cents

Dickm


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Dickm you are right …100%, FGMO procedure is a waste of time and money, only Thymol works. 
Not all beekeepers believe or know this. Since I use the Thymol strips I don’t even evaporate OA during summer, I use it only ones in the brood free time.

My two cents………..


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## Romahawk (Jul 11, 2005)

Romahawk said:


> When using the powdered sugar method of mite control do you break down the double deep hive body and spread sugar on the top of each one or do you just put the scren on the top deep and apply the sugar. How many pounds of sugar do you use per application? Can this be done with supers on or does it contaminate the honey crop? Is this a spring and fall application or can it be used anytime?


Well I guess I will try again. This will be the third time I asked this question and each time the thread was hi-jacked and taken off in another direction and I never did get an answer. Then again maybe it's my B.O....


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

Your patience is admirable! That's a trait of a good beekeeper!

The method that seems to be touted as being "standard", and the method that I'm using myself and telling others to use, is:

*1/2 cup of powdered sugar per hive body, 2 times a week for a month.*

This is sifted from the top of the stacked supers. Every individual box does not need to be sifted; they can all be done at once. And every individual frame being powdered with sugar may lead to killed larva and eggs (so don't do it!). This method is best performed in the morning or late in the afternoon, when most of the field force is back within the hive and all bees can be covered/coated. This method can be done at any time of they year, although best results seem to come from following the drone brood cycles, meaning late spring or early summer, and again in the late summer or early fall. Remember to collect "waste sugar" to prevent ant infestations and hive re-infection of mites. Some contamination of the honey crop with powdered sugar is to be expected, but is non-toxic to your customers and the bees, and the amount of sugar applied to the hive itself is minimal. Organic powdered sugar works just as well as powdered doughnut sugar which works just as well as using a blender/food processor to grind up your own white table sugar; the method works because it's a powder. Please do not intentionally feed powdered doughnut sugar to your bees, due to cornstarch and the possibility of nosema and dysentary, but the small amount they ingest while grooming themselves is non-toxic as long as they are free to do cleansing flights.

Keep track of your mite drops. Keep you application methods consistent. Keep the amounts of sugar applied the same. And you too may see results!

(Your results may vary.)

Good luck,
DS


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I saw just very lite sugar dust (smoke) which was almost invisible,

Yes!!! Exactly!!! That is the fine smoke-like dusting of 5 to 15 micron
particles that will clog the tarsal pads of the varroa!!!!

You did very well.

Here is the "step-by-step" I wrote back in 2001 for Bee-L
http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0105D&L=BEE-L&P=R1576&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=0

 Dr. Fakhimzadeh's original paper was in ABJ June 2000.
 > The method that seems to be touted as being "standard", and 
> the method that I'm using myself and telling others to use, is:
> *1/2 cup of powdered sugar per hive body, 2 times a week 
> for a month.

*The method above is the "Dowda" method *I warned about*.
While it certainly is being "touted", there is *no hard data* to 
show that it works well at all, and it has become "popular" 
simply because it is easy to do, not because it has been 
shown to work. Randy Oliver also promotes this approach 
in his ABJ articles without mentioning Dowda.

1/2 cup of sugar per hive is like 5 times as much sugar
as should be used in the original "Fakhimzadeh" method,
and will certainly get sugar in your honey if you dust
when supers are on. The "poofing" method will use
far far less sugar, and will reduce the chance of such
contamination.

Take care to monitor your mite drop AFTER treatment with
powdered sugar, so that you can see if you are getting any
results at all, but take special care with "the Dowda method"
until someone with some real credentials does a controlled
study to verify efficacy.


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

*Coffee and mornings*

Hi, sorry for not writing back sooner, I'm somewhat limited to writing on the computer to first thing in the morning. It's great seeing all the people who use powdered sugar as their miticide. There are quite a few. Dr. Joe Carson, who sells Nozevit out of Alaska, that's all he and his club use. He didn't have Nosema problems, which we thought we were seeing this winter. We noticed several of our hives start to dwindle (down to 3 frames) and lost two hives. We had really low mite counts and thought it was all the rain, we did have some leaky hives that we fixed but thought we were too late. We realized it was the new Nosema Ceranae. We bought Nozevit in January at the National Beekeeping Conference and applied it several days later once the weather cleared up and then again 10 days later. The two dwindling hives came back like gangbusters and I have honey supers on them now. 
Here's our powdered sugar method.
We use 2 cups per hive, or one cup per brood box. We only separated the supers when we had severe infestations early on, otherwise we keep them stacked. You want to make sure you use enough powdered sugar that it falls clear to the bottom. 
We have pictures here http://countryrubes.com/instructions/usingpowderedsugar.html and if you look at the next page of our website, we have some pictures Randy Oliver let us use. Randy wrote an article that came out in March or April's 2008 issue of the American Bee Journal. It's updated version is on his webpage here http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=40
We do not dust during a honey flow because we sell to a health food store. Many people do with out any problems, as I said, bees seem to remove it when there is nectar available. Since we sell varitial honey, we have 3 flows a year with a 3 week dearth between, which is perfect for dusting. As soon as we pull our first supers, we dust and pull the powdered sugar after two hours. We know the degree of infestation as soon as we look. Since we got our mite populations low, there are always a few mites, we will repeat the treatment 2 more times, 5 to 7 days apart. If the powdered sugar was loaded with mites, which it has not been for the past two years, we would treat every 3 days for 21 days to ensure capturing most of the mites hatching with new bees.
We vary between 5 and 10 hives, very small time, but I've talked to two commercial beekeepers, 1300 hives and 800 hives who dust just twice a year, once when they are making there divides and once after they pull their honey. The last timing would be a bit scary for me, as they are getting into their winter bees and might be a bit late. That July dusting really seems to do the trick to keep the mites population low going into winter. 
Sincerely,
Janet


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## France (Apr 5, 2007)

Sasha said:


> Dobro vece, Lawrence
> 
> My mistake. I think linden is on German (know a little bit of that). We call it bagrem, you will know it as black locust.
> http://www.naturephoto-cz.com/photos/others/black-locust-25400.jpg




Kako ti gre poofanje sa secerom zemljak? 
Sprasevali su pa o lipi? Lipa = Linden = baswood...
Slovenci zovu to drvo lipa, mislim da i Hrvati? Neznam pa tocno ce se tako zove i u Srbiji? Svekako pa lipa i bagram nisu eno i isto. . . . 

Just to straighten one thing... Linden is one of three English names for a genus of trees TILIA, also known as lime and basswood!
But, what Sasa is calling "bagrem" has nothing to do with Linden - in German or in English. As seen from the pictures - shown is pseudoacacia, Robinia or Black Locust. . . Another common name is also False Acacia.


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## Romahawk (Jul 11, 2005)

Thanks for the responses on the powdered sugar method of mite control. Your instructions have finaly cleared up the confusion in this addled old brain on how the sugar is delivered to the bees. I need to build a few SBB's and I'll be giving it a try....


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

France said:


> Kako ti gre poofanje sa secerom zemljak?
> Sprasevali su pa o lipi? Lipa = Linden = baswood...
> Slovenci zovu to drvo lipa, mislim da i Hrvati? Neznam pa tocno ce se tako zove i u Srbiji? Svekako pa lipa i bagram nisu eno i isto. . . .
> 
> ...


Thanks France for correcting me. My mistake, you are right lipa = linden = basswood.

Now a little bit on Serbian. 
Hvala France sto si me ispravio. U pravu si, rec je o lipi koja se tako zove i na srpskom. To sa secerom u prahu, pa jos eksperimentisem sa tim, ali izgleda da obecava... Voleo bih da batalim hemikalije, hocu da pcele drzim organski. 
Pozdrav.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

This year I dumped a cup of powdered sugar in each of the 7 packages I hived. I rolled the bees around a little and hived them. No poofing. Got too many mites to count off of them.

dickm


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