# No Smoke Beekeeping. Why?



## LtlWilli (Mar 11, 2008)

I totally agree with you. I know that some will say "I know which hives are gentle". Well, they do not know what may have befallen that hive since the last visit. You must admit, it is good to think of all the posts that do not mention being stung. Anyway, I vote for ignorance


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Midsummers day just a week or so out. Spring sure has got by quickly.

I suspect that most people give up on the alternative methods once they learn to light a smoker so that it stays lit. If they're still keeping bees by then. 

Our bees start brooding 2-3 weeks after the solstice, and I guess yours do as well. So look at it this way - your bee year is just about to start.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I note that there are frequent posts from people don't use a smoker & wonder why they have copped 20 - 30 stings & upset the neighbours.

They watched "the Bee Movie" and got the idea it was cruel... I wonder the same thing... how do they think it's good to leave the bees more upset and have more of them die trying to sting you...


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

But, Michael, the smoke gets in their eyes. Besides, it could cause lung cancer in the bees, don't ya think?

I smoke because it keeps me calm. The bees get calmed also.


----------



## Cris (Mar 10, 2011)

*snerk* you sir, owe me another drink.

Myself, I don't use a smoker - I've got a spray bottle with water and honey-b-healthy instead. If nothing else it gets them sticky and slows them down. I don't worry about getting stung because, well, I wear long sleeves and a veil and worrying about it just makes me more paranoid then I already am.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So get a smoker, learn how to use it and stop being paranoid.

Do you carry around a bucket of water to wash your sticky gloves after hive manipulations?


----------



## MassKeeper (May 15, 2011)

Well I'm hardly experienced but in all the things I've read nobody has ever advised against a smoker. I got one when I started, and I admit I still have trouble keeping it lit some days (like yesterday), but reading the forum I wondered this same thing yesterday.


----------



## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I sometimes fall to the temptation of working without one....just for quick visits. Like yesterday when I wanted to pull a single frame from the center of the hive body to see if there was capped brood. The new Russian queen had been taking forever to get going and I was concerned. Popped the top, pulled the lid. Worked real slow. Moved the frames, pulled one from the center. Bee's boiled up. I saw capped brood. Moved slower. More bee's boiled up. Started to hurry. Pushed the frames back together. Bee's boiling over by then. Bee's on every edge of the box. Tried to get them off as I put the inner cover back on. Bee's crawling everywhere and coming up through the hole in the inner cover. Finally topped the box off and went back to the barn shaking my head and asking, once again, why I just didn't fire that smoker up. 

Next time, I tell myself....next time.


----------



## LtlWilli (Mar 11, 2008)

I am guilty as well of going out without a smoker plenty. My excuse is expediting a quick check on something--no more since a "gentle" hive swarmed me one day. Benadryl stock went up that day, I do believe...LOL
LtlWilli


----------



## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

I know many of us use one but the butane torches with the instant on pieze electric ignitor are perfect for keeping your smoker lit. Using mine I can go from a cold smoker to perfect cool white smoke in seconds. It's like a requirement for me to have it handy. There's really no reason to work the bees with no smoke.


----------



## VaNewbee (Mar 20, 2011)

Beyondthesidewalks, what type of butane torch do you use? And, if possible, where did you get it? Thanks.


----------



## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Ravenseye is exactly right. I to sometimes try just a small invasion without smoke. Most of the time it only causes more bee death from closing up. The secret to keeping your smoker lit is to get it well lit in the first place. I use some sort of dense paper fuel in the bottom, light it well with a automatic igniter propane torch. The same one that I used to plumb a house with copper pipe and solder. They can be bought many places, even wally world. Then insert the fuel, pump like crazy until the fuel is well lit. I most always open with smoke, ALWAYS with a veil! As Mark says it calms me and also helps the bees. Remember the bellows will last a long time, so pump, pump, pump.


----------



## johnblagg (May 15, 2011)

untill recently I used a friends smoker I had borrowed ....bees were not built up yet having been captured one month ago as a swarm.
Friend needed his back so I tried the vinager and water spray ...worked good the first time and not much problem...then yesterday pop ,pop ,,,,pop pop pop they were in a pissy mood and vinager did not help much at all....I quickly built myself a smoker from scratch out of materials I had on hand that could be made to work ...lol will post a few pics of it in action soon.For a home made unit it is far better than expected.


----------



## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

As time goes on beekeeping, rules get relearned. Used to smoke each colony prior to loading, back then it was belly or boom to get em on.

Now I never smoke for loading, bees don't mind at all. Saves a lot of time.


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I have thought a lot about this too, and I think people not using smoke is rooted in three things:

1 - "Natural Beekeeping" is questioning everything that has been done in beekeeping over the last 150 years, and many newbees have come to beekeeping through an interest in this recent movement. Smoke seems, to the newcomer, to be an obvious candidate for "mistreatment" of the bees. If you look around, you'll find most of the recent promotion of the use of something other than smoke is coming from people promoting their methods as "natural". The unfortunate thing here in my opinion, is that most of the people promoting natural beekeeping - by FAR - are relatively inexperienced. Now that's not to say that I don't support a lot of the main ideas; I have top bar hives myself. But I do think there is a tremendous amount of misinformation tied up in this recent movement, and the use of smoke is one part of that.

2 - Lack of skill at using smoke. They tried it; it was hot; smoked too much; bees got mad; it went out; - smoke is no good.

3 - Laziness. And I do understand this myself. When I think about getting into the bees, the thing that seems like the pain to deal with is the smoker. For me being in the city, I just find that it brings attention from people nearby, and I don't like that. However, I am determined to get good at using smoke and the smoker, so I have never once opened a hive without one lit.

Adam


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

This is something I grabbed from "Seldom Fools Apiculture: Canada's Leader in Sustainable Beekeeping." http://sfapiculture.ca/

Regarding smoke, they write:

"The beekeeper generally uses a smoker in the belief that it calms the bees. In reality, what the smoke does is to make the bees think that their home is on fire. They all run into the hive and prepare to evacuate. They’re not “calm”, they’re in a panic and it takes a long time for life in the hive to get back to normal. A simple, 10-minute, inspection can disrupt life in the hive for hours."

Now, I feel that their hearts are certainly in the right place, but in my opinion, this kind of statement written under the tagline of "Canada's Leader in Sustainable Beekeeping" - especially coming from people who started three years ago - amounts to the propagation of opinion as fact. 

But I absolutely believe that they do mean well, and that they do not see how this might be harmful. 

Adam


----------



## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Yeah, true ignorance is true bliss. :lookout:

A trick I picked up from a more experienced beek - I use the tissue paper between sheets of foundation. Crumple lightly, put in smoker, drop match in, gently puff to get the easy fire going, then put in some burlap. Gentle puff to get the burlap going, then add more burlap until the smoker is full, and I have nice cool smoke, lots of it. Easy to keep going for several hours. When done, put smoker in metal ammo can, close up, smoker goes out nice and safe.

In the past, using other methods and fuels was more difficult starting and keeping it going. Piece of cake now.
Regards,
Steven


----------



## TNBeek (May 21, 2011)

I'm a newbee with a hive packaged on Memorial day. Been in twice since and haven't had to use smoke, yet. The Russian girls are pretty calm. But, I know that this may change as they get alot of brood or stores built up.


----------



## Nicole (Jan 7, 2009)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I have thought a lot about this too, and I think people not using smoke is rooted in three things:
> 
> 1 - "Natural Beekeeping" is questioning everything that has been done in beekeeping over the last 150 years, and many newbees have come to beekeeping through an interest in this recent movement. Smoke seems, to the newcomer, to be an obvious candidate for "mistreatment" of the bees. If you look around, you'll find most of the recent promotion of the use of something other than smoke is coming from people promoting their methods as "natural". The unfortunate thing here in my opinion, is that most of the people promoting natural beekeeping - by FAR - are relatively inexperienced. Now that's not to say that I don't support a lot of the main ideas; I have top bar hives myself. But I do think there is a tremendous amount of misinformation tied up in this recent movement, and the use of smoke is one part of that.
> 
> ...


As someone once guilty of all three, I'd say you hit it right on the head with this post. Still working on 2 & 3, but I'm getting there!


----------



## Dan. NY (Apr 15, 2011)

I have noticed that when I smoke the bees, they instantly increase the tone of their buzz. Its much louder, and much more pronounced. They appear agitated. The conclusion one can make from this is the smoke makes them angry. I smoke them, but I really do wonder, at least in my case if its needed. 

Dan


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I believw they are fanning, that is why the buzz gets louder. Not sure if they are upset. They definitely don't like smoke though.


----------



## jeb532 (Feb 16, 2011)

Hummm....I had this though go through my head a few weeks ago...

Large White Alien shows up...house catches on fire (smoker)...

...or...

Large White Alien shows up...delicious sweets miraculousy appear (sugar water spray)...

Can bees be conditioned? They sure as heck recognize skunks and bears. 

Can they "reason" ("if this is done, then that happens")? I don't know how else they could have developed a communication system. 

Do they have sufficient long term memory to remember whether the Large White Alien is bringing destruction or prosperity? Hummmm.....some days they seem to just totally ignore me...other days not.

I bring the smoker...but I don't use it unless a little sugar water spray doesn't quiet them. Even quite soaked, an occasional guard bee just won't be deterred.

Remembering that I read that bees can sense smells from dozens to hundreds of yards away....instead of blowing the smoke directly into the hive, I have tried setting it upwind a few feet and waiting a few minutes. Seems to work pretty well. 

My grandfather kept bees from 1896 to 1972. He often did not use the smoker, but he always had it handy. 

Unlike grandpa...I suit up. Most of the time all grandpa had on was a pair of loose overalls, sandals, no shirt, and _maybe_ a tule veil....but then he and the bees were one long before I was born....


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

jeb532 said:


> Large White Alien shows up...house catches on fire (smoker)...
> 
> Can they "reason" ("if this is done, then that happens")? I don't know how else they could have developed a communication system.


If bees could reason, they would _*know*_ that the large white alien was just a beek with a smoker and they _*would not*_ think that their house was on fire.


----------



## HiveMind (Jul 6, 2010)

My smoke use has taken some interesting turns. I bought a smoker. I caught a few swarms this year getting into beekeeping for the first time. In my excitement and curiosity I would lift the lid on my hives almost every day after work to peek in and see how my beloved bees were doing and feed them. After a month it donned on me that I hadn't thought to fire up my smoker yet. 

As fate would have it before my first big hive inspection I purchased an UltraBreeze jacket to use for a cutout call I got. I fired up my smoker and started my hive inspections. I had some cross-comb to deal with. So the bees got pretty intense. My wife and I finished with 3 in-depth hive inspections when I realized that we got zero stings and my smoker sat on the side of my wagon the whole time. Again, I was just in the zone and the smoker never came to mind. So I'm not anti-smoke. But I'm not inclined to hassle with the smoker at this point since no bees are stinging me through my Ultra Breeze jacket. Or maybe I'm just lucky so far. :lookout:


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I don't know if anyone really understands what smoke does in the hive. If there's any science out there, I'd love to know and understand more about it. 

But I feel that the consistent use of smoke since ancient times means that I should give it my best effort to try and master before I abandon its use for some other method, or nothing at all. Otherwise, I am precluding that all of those other people with all of that experience were missing something that I was able to discover as a newbee. It just doesn't make any sense.

Sure, it seems obvious to us that smoke is bad. As humans, we are very well-versed in the "smoke=bad" perspective. But does that mean that it's bad for beekeeping or that it really has any bad effects on bees if used properly?

I feel if we're going to learn anything, then we've got to start by believing that we have something to learn. If there's anyone who's going to question the wisdom of a time-honored technique and rapidly discard it, it's a newbee.

I'm trying to avoid some of the traps of being a beginner. So I'm questioning the use of smoke by attempting to master it first. Then I'll know better.

Adam


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I dont know about the "science" behind smoking bees, but I believe it has been well established that smoke triggers the bees to gorge themselves with honey so they can leave the hive with their honey stores during an approaching forest fire. Bees that are preoccupied with fleeing an apparent fire, face down in a cell eating honey, or stuffed with honey, are not that concerned with a giant white alien opening up their hive.


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Nabber86 said:


> I dont know about the "science" behind smoking bees, but I believe it is pretty well accepted that smoke triggers the bees to gorge themselves with honey so they can leave the hive with their honey stores during an approaching forest fire. Bees that are preoccupied with fleeing an apparent fire, face down in a cell eating honey, or stuffed with honey, are not that concerned with a giant white alien.


I agree that this is a commonly shared idea. My grandfather told me the same thing when I was a kid. But is it really true? Especially if you just use a small amount of smoke. Do the bees really get to gorging on honey and make themselves unable to sting? Do they really get fooled into thinking the hive is on fire?

Adam


----------



## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Dan. NY said:


> I have noticed that when I smoke the bees, they instantly increase the tone of their buzz. Its much louder, and much more pronounced. They appear agitated. The conclusion one can make from this is the smoke makes them angry. Dan


Not necessarily an accurate conclusion. The tone of their buzz increases because they're using their wings in the hive, instead of simply walking around. Perhaps they're seeking to clear out the smoke? Perhaps they're alarmed at what's going on? Perhaps they're alerting each other that the Big White Alien is back to annoy them, and it's time for them to turn It into a pincushion? Perhaps it is all simply erroneous speculation? 

And those who don't use smoke, because they don't see the need, after all, they don't feel any stings thru their jackets. I suspect we ought to realize the smoke is as much for the bees benefit as it is ours. You may not feel the stings through the gloves or jackets, but have you ever stopped to notice how many stingers are in the gloves or jackets? And each stinger represents a now-dead bee. 

The smoke masks the alarm pheromone. It may or may not signal that the hive is in danger of fire, and stimulate the bees to gorge on honey, thus rendering them a bit more docile. Haven't you noticed when you smoke your bees, how many of them end up with their heads in a cell, taking on honey? The smoke also helps scoot the bees off the edges of the box, so when you replace the super/body/cover, you don't kill as many. 

The judicious use of smoke accomplishes many more purposes than are immediately obvious. Some people might be able to enter a hive with a total of 6 boxes and 50,000+ bees and not kill any or cause any to die because of stinging because you didn't use smoke. But I wouldn't want to bet on it. And as far as smoke being carcinogenic or causing some other disease, or being a general threat to their health, those bees are all going to be dead in 6 weeks anyway - no time to contract a life-threatening disease. And even if they do, they'll still live longer than losing a sting or getting squashed between boxes, because smoke didn't chase them away or cause them to gorge on honey or mask the alarm pheromone.
fwiw
Regards,
Steven


----------



## Dan. NY (Apr 15, 2011)

So far, I have not been stung that I am aware of, though I do smoke. I have not seen any stingers, though have not done a detailed inspection of my white suite. I do see that I can smoke the bees down off the top of the frame. I am not sure that is a good reason to smoke, as I should be able to carefully lift it without them being smoked down. After I inspect, the bees take up their pre-smoke positions. So it is possible to crush them when putting them back, even if I smoke. I suspect this is similar to others.

Dan


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Adam Foster Collins wrote...
Do the bees really get to gorging on honey and make themselves unable to sting? 

Answer: No, they are not unable to sting, believe me. You don't want to test the bees on this one, they will sting. The smoke just keeps them busy eating while you do your thing.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

> I agree that this is a commonly shared idea. My grandfather told me the same thing when I was a kid. But is it really true? Especially if you just use a small amount of smoke. Do the bees really get to gorging on honey and make themselves unable to sting? Do they really get fooled into thinking the hive is on fire?


Hundreds of years of emperical evidence (backed up by my own observations) is proof enough for me. 

As for the amount of smoke - it doesnt take a whole lot of alarm pheromone to get the bees wildly exicited. It also doesnt take a whole lot of smoke to calm them down.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Wow! what a thread that has caught on fire.

Guilty as charged. Lazy, don't want to expose the bees to any more than I think they have to, what ever...
I have done many quick checks without smoke and so far I haven't been stung. If I were to tear the hive apart as in a brood check I surely would use smoke but to lift the cover and see if they have drawn out the foundation on the top box I ask why smoke? Maybe ignorance but it is working so far. Bees do breath and I challenge someone to take a good puff on the output of the smoker and tell me it doesn't hurt. Yeah, I am not a smoker now but I smoked at the age of 14 and I was experimenting with corn silk at 10. It was all about being cool. Not so cool now.

Smoke is a method of CONTROLLING the bees while you do what you want it dang site sure is not what they want.

If all you want to do is lift the cover and see if they are ready for another box why do you have to smoke them?


----------



## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

for the people that do not use smoke, take off your zipper veil, gloves, suit, frame holder and learn to work your bees. you will be a better beekeeper as a result.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bees understand their environment and communicate w/ each other by odors. Smoke confuses their sense of smell. It masks the alarm pheromone, which keeps the bees in a calm state.

Acebird and others can get away w/ simple checking of one or two hives. I wouldn't care to see someone actually work 40 hives w/out a lit smoker. And you can't really tell much about what is going on inside a hive w/out removing a brood frame or two, at times.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

How about using an alternative to smoke, like diluted apple cider vinegar?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How do smoking restriction laws in NYC effect the bkprs there? Is it illegal to smoke hives in NYC? Yet?


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I don't think that it is illegal to use a smoker on a roof in NYC, although I haven't checked.

My own situation is rather unique. There's no smoking on the rooftop garden. It's covered by rubber tile mats with foam insulation underneath. Someone has already accidentally caused a small smoldering fire with a carelessly discarded cigarette in the past.

I wouldn't dare use a smoker because if I carelessly set it down on the rubber tile mats, it could easily melt through. It's a major design flaw that I'm forced to live with.

I've had to find alternatives. So far, a spritz of diluted vinegar (1:1) with a small sprayer seems to do the trick, but I have my doubts.

I always wear a veil and an old long sleeve white dress shirt (with a designer label, of course).

I've also tried using a solution of liquid smoke, but I felt that it didn't calm the bees but made them more defensive.

My thinking is that the apple cider vinegar can mask the alarm pheromone and cause the bees to back off enough to allow me to work. It does burn the eyes if the wind blows it back at you.

Hey, maybe it should be considered a treatment as well.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Bees understand their environment and communicate w/ each other by odors. Smoke confuses their sense of smell. It masks the alarm pheromone, which keeps the bees in a calm state.




If I was working 40 hives I would use smoke.

I don't think if confuses there sense of smell any more than it does yours. It will mask YOUR smell so smoke yourself more than you do the bees and the bees will not know the white animal is about to tear their house apart.


----------



## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Using a smoker is an "Art". I like to watch our State Bee Inspector (Don Hopkins) with his smoker. He only wears a veil and with bare hands works hive after hive. Not just popping the top but digging in. Seldom does he seem to use more than a puff. Its almost if he is aiming the smoker at individual bees.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WLC said:


> I don't think that it is illegal to use a smoker on a roof in NYC, although I haven't checked.
> 
> I wouldn't dare use a smoker because if I carelessly set it down on the rubber tile mats, it could easily melt through. It's a major design flaw that I'm forced to live with.


I could design you a simple device that would puff on a cigar of your choice enough to smoke the bees. A bee smoker is designed to burn fuel long enough to work several hives. If you are working a small hive on the roof top of a condo you don't really need all that much time.

When you spray the vinegar are you spraying yourself or the bees? I can't see that the bees would like that either but you could use it as a lotion for your exposed skin.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I don't think if confuses there sense of smell any more than it does yours. It will mask YOUR smell so smoke yourself more than you do the bees


I don't use my sense of smell in the same way they do, or as effectively.

Ace, here's how I see it. When I shoot smokein the entrance of a hive and then under the cover, before I open the hive, this smoking produces a screen of sorts, a smoke screen, which makes the smoke thew predominant odor in the reseptors by which the bees smell odors.

Call it masking the odors in the environment, such as those I produce, or masking of my odors, the result is the same, so call it what you wish. 

Plus, I smell enuf like a smoker when I get home, so I don't spray myself w/ smoke very much, unless the bees are laying down alot of stings. And then shooting smoke on the effected area is of benefit.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I spray my exposed hands, my shirt and veil, sometimes my lower body, and of course, I 'knock on the door' with a spritz of the dilute vinegar when opening segments of the hive for manipulation.

The alarm pheromone in bees is isoamyl acetate. Acetate is the same substance as the acetic acid found in vinegar. I think that the acetic acid in vinegar somehow interferes with the the bees ability to smell the alarm pheromone isoamylacetate. The acidity backs them off. Anyhow, that's the logic behind it.

I do smoke cigars from time to time (Churchills of one type or another from J&R). I wouldn't dare try it on that roof however. But, it would make a great excuse for smoking a cigar while working your bees. (as you light up )"Honey, my smoker broke down again. I've gotta stop them bees from swarming."


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I know many of us use one but the butane torches with the instant on pieze electric ignitor are perfect for keeping your smoker lit.

I have bought several now. One in the van, one in the yard, one on the porch. They are awesome for lighting a smoker quickly.

>"The beekeeper generally uses a smoker in the belief that it calms the bees. In reality, what the smoke does is to make the bees think that their home is on fire. 

I do not believe this. I have smoked colonies in places people didn't want them as heavily as I could and they NEVER evacuated. I have opened hives thousands of times with no smoke so I could find a queen and thousands of times with smoke because I wasn't looking for a queen. The same number of bees are sucking down nectar in either case.

>They’re not “calm”, they’re in a panic and it takes a long time for life in the hive to get back to normal.

Not true. They are calm. If you are smoking them enough to cause a panic, you're using too much smoke or it's too hot.

> A simple, 10-minute, inspection can disrupt life in the hive for hours."

Any inspection will disrupt the hive for hours no matter how you do it IF there is no defensive reaction. A simple inspection without smoke can disrupt the hive for days if there is a defensive reaction. 

>I don't know if anyone really understands what smoke does in the hive. If there's any science out there, I'd love to know and understand more about it. 

No science. Just 10,000 years of experience...

>I have noticed that when I smoke the bees, they instantly increase the tone of their buzz. Its much louder, and much more pronounced. They appear agitated. The conclusion one can make from this is the smoke makes them angry.

I have seen angry bees. I have seen lightly smoked bees. Heavily smoked bees. Drummed bees. Cutout bees. Homeless bees. Swarming bees. They are not angry just because the buzz went up one level of pitch. If they were angry there would be no doubt in your mind. They would be pinging off your veil and some would be driving their stingers into your clothes. 10,000 years or so of beekeeper experience disagrees with your conclusion.

>Smoke is a method of CONTROLLING the bees while you do what you want it dang site sure is not what they want.

No, smoke just covers the smell of the alarm pheromone so they don't have a defensive reaction. It doesn't make them do anything. You MIGHT get a few bees to move a few inches if you work at it. If you smoked like the dickens, you MIGHT get half the bees to boil out the top and run over the sides right up until you stop smoking. But that would almost never serve any real purpose.


----------



## summer1052 (Oct 21, 2007)

I am interested in the fact that many of the beeks opining in this thread are north of I-70. As a beek south if I-10, in definite AHB territory, the question is borderline silly. I wouldn't check hives without smoke for any amount of love nor money. Duh. :doh:

As for cigars . . . Well, once upon a time, that was actually common. Many beeks smoked pipes, cigars and cigarettes, without a veil, while they worked bees. It might work up there for some even yet. Mr. Bush is right. Smoke covers the alarm pheromone. I smoke stings to help defuse the reaction. Having hundreds of bees pinging off your veil and stinging your clothes is enough to convince you to NEVER go out without a full suit, and a full, lit, smoker. And, like birth control, AFTER the fact is too late to use it!

An old method of "smoking" bees out of a place you don't want them, like a tree, etc., is to burn sulfur. They will leave for that.

Good thread, friends.
Summer


----------



## yantabulla (Jan 9, 2011)

I'll have to be careful about having dangerous thoughts in the shed in future.

Weather report - 12 inches of rain up to 17:00 Tuesday afternoon with the worst of it over. 

Photos of the Nuc boxes here

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/dscf5439d.jpg/

The varnished one on top is a cell starter ready for the spring queenraising attempt.

Oh - I'll be sticking with the smoke!


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_smoke_do_to_bees

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beekeeping


> Smoker
> /wiki/File:Bee_smoker.jpg/wiki/File:Bee_smoker.jpg
> /wiki/File:Bee_smoker.jpg/wiki/File:Bee_smoker.jpgBee smoker with heat shield and hook
> Main article: Bee smoker
> ...


http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-bee-smoker.htm


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Interesting. Still more talk in these articles about bees feeding heavily in preparation for evacuation. They seem mostly like the same little bit of stuff everyone has said forever. I would love to see some really rigorous science on this subject. Just to really understand it.

Adam


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I guess it depends on what you call science. Expert beekeepers will disagree from time to time whether they have a doctorate degree or not. Many things can be science but not conclusive.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Agreed. The Wiki and blog references posted in this thread dont really offer any "scientific proof" that using smoke masks alarm pheromones in a bee hive (seriously, how scientific is the term "mask") anymore than they prove the fire/honey gorging theory is valid. 

People could also be easily swayed by the "new is always better" way of thinking. As in fire = old technique (boring cave man stuff), but the term "pheromone" sounds new and scientific - Honey (term of endearment, not a hive product), call the kids. I just used the word pheromoe in my blog!. Kids - "You're KWEL dad"!


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If smoke made bees engourge themselves w/ honey, I would expect to see lots and lots of bees actively feeding at open cells of honey and even uncapping some honey to get to it. I don't recall seeing that happen. Has anyone else?

Masking of odors is what seems to happen, from my pov. By observation. I don't know how one would establish that scientifically. Except by repeated observation.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Not trying to be argumentive here, but how can possibly tell that the smokes masks odors, from the bee's perspective. You may not smell anything because of the smoke, but you are not a bee. Do bees really "smell" odors, or is it more of a chemical receptor thing when it comes to pheromones?


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

The effectiveness of smoke and the reaction of the bees is something that is based on hundreds of years of observation. And that's not something to be discounted!

When I talk about wanting to see some "hard science", it's just to get that much more understanding of it. Like the discovery of the bee dances, and how they communicate, it would be nice to know how smoke affects the bees.

But the uncounted years of use are enough for me to commit to learning how to use it. 

Adam


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

It couldn't hurt to look through the following review:

http://extension.entm.purdue.edu/beehive/pdf/flightfight.pdf


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Hey, nice. Thanks, WLC

A quote:

"Beekeepers are familiar with the banana-like odor of the principal active compound of honey bee alarm pheromone, isoamyl acetate, or IAA and use smoke to reduce defensive responses. Smoke reduces the stimulation of olfactory receptor neurons in the presence of IAA as measured by electroantennograms (EAGs; Visscher et al., 1995)."


----------



## madrona (Jun 5, 2011)

There is some science relating to the effects of smoke.

The most frequently cited scholarly article is here: http://www.springerlink.com/content/v172010112682748/

You can read a brief summary and the first page of it at that link for free. It mentions that smoke decreases the bees' sensory perception of ALL pheromones, not only the ones related to alarm. ( There are more than a dozen different pheromones which drive hive behavior, and even the alarm pheromone itself is made up of more than 40 different chemical compounds.) It also states that this desensitization only lasts for 10 or 20 minutes. 

Also, with regard to engorgement: this article mentions that bees do increase their consumption of honey in response to smoke. Historical documents from as long ago as ancient Greece also mention this fact. (The World History of Beekeeping and Honeyhunting, by Crane). However, research hasn't really been able to determine if this feeding behavior is because the bees "think" that their hive is going to catch fire. 

There are also a number of studies which explore the physiology of guarding / aggressive behavior in bees. A couple interesting factoids that I gleaned: colonies with older bees are more likely to sting than those with younger bees. And, the aggressiveness of any given colony is genetically much more determined by the patriline (the father's genes) than by the queen. So, re-queening a hive for purposes of reducing its aggressiveness is really dependent on the quality of the drones that the queen mated with. Also, the stress pheromones act as an ATTRACTANT to small hive beetles! There's lots more information here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2606975/

Anyway, speaking personally, for the moment it works well for me to not smoke my bees. I'm not ferociously opinionated about it, though, and I also have enormous respect for some of the beekeepers here who do use smoke, and who have been my main teachers. And, I'm planning to continue reading the insect physiology science, to get a deeper theoretical grasp.

I suit up with veil and close-fitting gloves when I work my hives, and I have very few bees pinging into my veil or stinging my suit. (I think that smoke has been used for thousands of years out of necessity because there weren't effective, convenient bee-proof veils and clothing available.) I have a good sense of smell, and I rarely smell the banana-smell of the alarm pheromone. The bees don't seem horribly agitated, they don't follow me when I walk away, and the hive behavior appears to go back to normal almost immediately after I put it all back together. 

I don't know if I'll continue going smokeless or not. I may go back to smoking the hive, and see what differences I notice. As a new beekeeper (in my 2nd season), I feel that it's alright to explore and evaluate new ways of doing things. Being labelled a heretic is sometimes the price of learning.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

WLC said:


> It couldn't hurt to look through the following review:
> 
> http://extension.entm.purdue.edu/beehive/pdf/flightfight.pdf


and


> The most frequently cited scholarly article is here: http://www.springerlink.com/content/v172010112682748/




Well, there you go. Several good references. Thanks for the info.


----------



## madrona (Jun 5, 2011)

WLC's link above is a more nicely formatted version of the second link in my post; it's cool that someone else here found that set of articles as well!


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Thank you, Madrona. I couldn't find the reference to small Hive beetle, but haven't had proper time to read the article in detail. 

You say,

"it's alright to explore and evaluate new ways of doing things. Being labelled a heretic is sometimes the price of learning. " 

True enough. This is particularly true in our Western culture, where challenging the wisdom of our teachers is almost a prerequisite for being a student. And a student's exploration of doing things differently always results in a discovery for the student -- but its usually the discovery that the teacher was right.

Certainly not always though. So we continue to challenge. I'll challenge this one by using the smoke until it proves to be wrong.


Adam


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> If smoke made bees engourge themselves w/ honey, I would expect to see lots and lots of bees actively feeding at open cells of honey and even uncapping some honey to get to it. I don't recall seeing that happen. Has anyone else?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f022jcEAeoQ

When I smoke my bees they go down between the frames like you see in this video. I assume, sure I admit it that they are going down to eat honey. Some people even smoke from underneath if they are using a SBB and they still stay down in between the frames. Maybe I am naive but I can see where the forest fire concept makes some sense too. I can also see where smoke can mess up your sense of smell. Smoking as a habit will even mess up your ability to taste along with smell.

I guess what I don’t understand is why you can get away without using smoke if the guard bees are going to throw up this pheromone when you open the hive. Something more than opening the hive must trigger the guard bees use of this pheromone.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Phenylacetaldehyde was mentioned as having a similar effect to smoke in one of the references.

It's found in buckwheat, chocolate and cigarettes.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

So, it seems, that you can produce a similar effect to smoking the bees without having to set something on fire.

Phenylacetaldehyde shouldn't be too hard to obtain. But, apple cider vinegar is far less expensive and seems to do the trick.

I can see how some chocolate lovers might want to find a way to work using chocolate to calm their bees into beekeeping.

I'm not above giving it a try myself.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I can't even pronounce that chemical but how would you deliver it?


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

It would most likely be in a solution/mixture of some kind.

I'm not convinced that I need to consider adding it to the apple cider vinegar though.

As long as apple cider vinegar can mask the alarm pheromone, I see no reason to make things more expensive or complicated.

The important point here is that other substances, like apple cider vinegar from a sprayer, can mask the alarm pheromone besides smoke from a smoker.

Perhaps one day the beekeeper with a smoker will become an anachronism (how quaint, the old fellow still uses a smoker).


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Lots of people are using apple cider vinegar/water mixes and sprayers. I guess it comes down to which one you'd rather smell like


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nabber86 said:


> Do bees really "smell" odors, or is it more of a chemical receptor thing when it comes to pheromones?


Good question, since bees don't have noses, like ours. But, what's the dif? They don't have ears either, yet people maintain that the bees can "hear", in a fashion, thru vibrations felt in ways other than like we do w/ our ears.


----------



## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

I wonder if anyone who works a fair number of hives is using a vinegar mix? I also wonder about the really long term effects of spraying hives down with vinegar. Seems like there would be some effect. I have seen the really long term effect of smoke and there doesn't seem to be any effect.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Some people use HBH in sugar water. What does that do to the bees?


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I hate to stir the pot again, but although isoamyl acetate, acetic acid, and phenylacetaldehyde may all have an acetate group burined somewhere in their chemical structure, they are completely different chemicals. If the chemicals even had remotely similar effects on bees, why would you spray an acetic acid solution on bees because it is somewhat "closely related" to the alarm pheromone isoamyl acetate. 

That's like saying methanol has a similar effect on an organism as ethanol. They might both have an OH group replacing one of the hydrogen molecules (thus similar structurally), but I dont think you want to replace the ethanol in your beer with methanol. The effect would be deadly.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Not really.

All you need to know is that apple cider vinegar is being used to calm bees. I don't know for sure if it's the acetic acid, or if it's something else that's masking the alarm pheromone.

Some bacteria produce acetaldehyde as an intermediate in acetic acid fermentation.

But, I'm not breaking out the electroantennograms.


----------



## TNBeek (May 21, 2011)

A mentor told me that using a cover cloth on top of the open box helps to keep the bees down on the comb and calm (no wind or sun). I have been using it with good results. It also helps when putting the hive back together so none of the girls get crushed. The europeans use this technique.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Can you describe the cloth and method a bit more? Do you smoke them, ro do you use something else to calm them?

Is it linen, or something more substantial?

Thanks.


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

WLC said:


> Not really.
> 
> All you need to know is that apple cider vinegar is being used to calm bees.


Actually, all I need to know is that acetic acid can dissolve the material known as chitin. The exoskeleton of honeybees is largely composed of chitin.

I think I'll save the vinegar for my salads.

Wayne


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Got a reference for that one Wayne?


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

WLC said:


> Not really.
> 
> All you need to know is that apple cider vinegar is being used to calm bees. I don't know for sure if it's the acetic acid, or if it's something else that's masking the alarm pheromone.


I guess I miss-read some of the posts. First we were talking about isoamyl acetate and than you threw in acetic acid followed by phenylacetaldehyde. I am just trying to figure out were it all came from (the acetate thing).


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

No biggie: there's something called 'competetive inhibition' that can prevent a receptor (like the receptor for the alarm pheromone) from functioning normally.

Acetate from isoamyl acetate.

Acetaldehyde from phenylacetaldehyde.

Some is from the above references, some is from common use.

The term 'aceta' seems to be something that they both have in common.

Anyone want to try a solution of acetaminophen?


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

WLC said:


> Anyone want to try a solution of acetaminophen?


Ha! I know this thread is giving me a headache.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

How about an aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid)?

I would be interested to know how the europeans are using a cloth however. I could easily spritz a cloth with some apple cider vinegar, for instance.

PS-Does acetylcholine ring a bell?


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

WLC said:


> Got a reference for that one Wayne?


(This referred to vinegar dissolving the material that comprises an insect's exoskeleton.)

I can't put my finger on the precise reference. Some years back, on a bee list-serve, there was a discussion of the use of a vinegar fog as a method of mite control. The idea was that the acetic acid in the vinegar would begin to dissolve the chitin in the mite's exoskeleton. I've also read of natural controls everything from head lice to ants using vinegar, all based on the dissolving action of acetic acid on the insect's exoskeleton. Since the honeybee is built with the same materials, I question the use of vinegar. I've also seen this brought up on other bee forums, though without scientific reference.

There is much published concerning the use of acetic acid in producing chitin in labs or on an industrial scale but I don't know of any studies that have been done specifically on the effects of direct spraying vinegar on honeybees. Probably since the practice seems to be so uncommon, a study hasn't been warranted?

Perhaps one of the biologists here could get a large grant to do this research. (Maybe after the cause of CCD is discovered?)

Wayne


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Wayne:

Apple cider vinegar is a food grade product, while smoke isn't. I haven't dissolved any bees yet by spritzing them. I haven't heard any reports from others using apple cider vinegar regarding dissolving the exoskeleton of their bees either.

I thought that there wasn't much more than 15% by volume acetic acid in apple cider vinegar anyway.

What's really funny is this: I recently taught a student how to extract a batch of DNA from bees for a DNA barcoding/fingerprinting research proposal. The DNA fingerprinting part does have a basis in CCD research. The hook in the project being the CCD/ DNA fingerprinting angle.

I don't need to consult a biologist. 

Wayne, don't get concerned about vineger hurting bees. Just try and accept that others are finding alternatives, and there is a basis in the research that suggests that it's possible to use alternatives for smoke to mask the alarm pheromone.


----------



## TNBeek (May 21, 2011)

The cover cloth is a sturdy material like a vinyl and looks like a window shade with a bottom insert at both ends. When the hive frames are exposed you roll the cover over the frame tops and it keeps the bees covered and calm and down the box on the comb. You roll the cover open or close to expose only the frames that you are working on (pulling out). All of the bees that you are not working with are in the dark and tend to stay calmer and not "boil over". Pull up the Beeworks website. D.E. uses and sells them.


----------



## Elwood (Apr 8, 2009)

On occasion we'll forego the smoker if it is hot dry and windy because we live in a wildland urban interface with the potential for extreme fire behaviour. Only because I don't want to be the guy who started a 100,000 acre brush fire. But if they need it and the weather is on the moist side, I'll smoke the dog crap out of them.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Is there alot of that sort of stuff in your hives?


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> =waynesgarden;672931I can't put my finger on the precise reference. Some years back, on a bee list-serve, there was a discussion of the use of a vinegar fog as a method of mite control. The idea was that the acetic acid in the vinegar would begin to dissolve the chitin in the mite's exoskeleton. I've also read of natural controls everything from head lice to ants using vinegar, all based on the dissolving action of acetic acid on the insect's exoskeleton. Since the honeybee is built with the same materials, I question the use of vinegar. I've also seen this brought up on other bee forums, though without scientific reference.


In this day and age where bees are commonly doused with toxic chemicals you are worried about fogging with minute solutions of apple cider vinegar and you have no qualms about the toxic effect of smoke and all the viruses, bacteria and foreign matter contained within?

I am not to keen on spraying any solution on the bees but I am interested in some form of fogger type delivery system. The biggest question is how much of a dose is required to get the effect you need without overdosing?

I like the cloth concept too. Gets the wheels turning...


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Seriously. Viruses and bacteria? Contained within Smoke? Do you really think these microorganisms survive the combustion process?

If you are really worried about that, I would focus on acetobacter, yeasts, and other live bacteria living in the apple cider vinegar.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> Seriously. Viruses and bacteria? Contained within Smoke? Do you really think these microorganisms survive the combustion process?


Just thinking ... It might not hurt to lean a tad about micro organisms. Maybe transmission of deseases in general. Smoking is not good for your health. Not for any organism that breaths oxygen.


----------



## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

With the gentle commercially available stock we have you can save a huge amount of time by not smoking. For instance I run my plastic boardman feeders in the bottom box. When feeding, we just go through, move the top boxes over, then one man squirts syrup while the other follows replacing top box. We can feed hundreds of colonies in a few hours without upsetting the bees. If we were using smoke it would take much longer.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Just thinking ... It might not hurt to lean a tad about micro organisms. Maybe transmission of deseases in general. Smoking is not good for your health. Not for any organism that breaths oxygen.


No seriously. You said


> ...you have no qualms about the toxic effect of smoke and all the *viruses, bacteria and foreign matter contained within*?


Please name one microorganism that survives the combustion process and is present in smoke. Preferably something that applies to pathogens in bee smoke. *NOT *some super bacteria that you found on Google that is able to survive in super-heated volcanic vents at the bottom of the ocean floor, or may be present on the surface of Mars.


----------



## summer1052 (Oct 21, 2007)

For WLC:

_Apple cider vinegar is a food grade product, while smoke isn't. _

An awful lot of BBQ aficionados here in Texas are going to be heartbroken to hear this.  [ "New York City?! Get a rope!" ]

This is an interesting thread to follow. I understand that in areas where really calm bees are (for now) the norm, there might be interest in alternative methods to smoking. But does that mean that there are NO alternatives to beeks like me, working in AHB areas? 

AHB are not arbitrarily aggressive, they are hyper-defensive. And more inclined towards kamikaze suicide missions -- stinging en masse -- than the EHB. That masking and reduction of the alarm pheromone is vital to keeping them at a lower level of frantic. Any possible alternatives have to be as easy to use instantly as smoke.

I'll keep following for ideas. Thank you friends, for the collective brain power here.

Summer


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Acebird said:


> ...and you have no qualms about the toxic effect of smoke and all the viruses, bacteria and foreign matter contained within??...


I am also Interested in hearing about the toxic virus or bacteria present in smoke. Even just one specific one that is proven to be harmful to bees would do.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

BBQ wood isn't often used in bee smokers now, is it?

We use a propane grill with marinated meats mostly (in the Catskills). 

As for my preferred southern cooking...New Orleans style. 

I wouldn't say don't use a smoker if you need to. I can't because of my circumstances.

Yes, you can get 'smoker happy'. I get 'spray happy' at times.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I am not to keen on spraying any solution on the bees but I am interested in some form of fogger type delivery system.


You could try hooking ahose frrom your truck exhaust and sticking that in the entrance of your hive. After a few minutes you won't have any trouble working your hive.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

t:

Did someone say BBQ? 


View attachment 334


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

CO2 knocks 'em right out for a while...

Video on gassing bees with CO2 from Malka Queens in Argentina

No smoke in that video - no protective gear either.

Adam


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> No seriously. You said
> 
> Please name one microorganism that survives the combustion process and is present in smoke. Preferably something that applies to pathogens in bee smoke. *NOT *some super bacteria that you found on Google that is able to survive in super-heated volcanic vents at the bottom of the ocean floor, or may be present on the surface of Mars.


Do I really? Think about this for a while, you are a smart guy.

The bacteria, viruses, and what ever are not in the combustion they are in all the junk you pack in the smoker. The smoke (which is cool right) passes by all this stuff and they hitch a ride. Germs affect the body depending on how they enter the body. Most that you eat are killed by your digestive acids. Those that you breath can enter the blood stream through the lungs. Some filtering can occur in the nose and nasal passages and hopefully blown out with a sneeze. But many will get you sick.

When you drag on a cigarette the exact same scenario happens. The invention of the filtered cigarette helps some but much gets past the filter.

One smoking of the bees is not going to kill them no more than one cigarette will kill you but it is unknown what repeated doses of smoke does to bees because it is an accepted practice like smoking use to be way back when.


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Still, what "germs" do you believe are going into the hives via the smoker? Specifically. Any?

Here, it might be the White Pine Blister Rust that, if we imagine real, real, real hard, could somehow jump species from Pinus Strobus to Apis Mellifera. Some of that might be getting into my smoker with the pine straw though my bees don't seem to be dropping their needles or have brances dying off.

I'm not very worried.

Wayne


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ace, you don't know what you are talking about. No matter how logical it may seem to you.

Also, you seem to be maintaining that it isn't thje tar and nicotine in cigarettes that cause harm to a persons lungs, but what is brought into the lungs as the smoke passes thru the not yet burned tobacco. I can't imagine where you got that idea from.

Besides, since individual bees only live six weeks and, at the most, I visit my hives every three weeks, most of the bees won't get smoked twice in their life time.

What bacteria and stuff is in the smoker fuel? Can you tell us?


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Ace

Good Grief. What you are saying is that it's *NOT* the smoke that is bad. It's the bacteria that that you imagine that is on the "junk that you pack in your smoker". IOW smart guy, you cold blow an unlit smoker into the hive an all those scary bacteria would be hitching a ride on the *air* blowing out of your smoker. It's got nothing to do with the freakin' SMOKE.

Replace the word smoke in you quote with air in your quote above. Heck I will even do it for you. You probably still wont understand it;



> The bacteria, viruses, and what ever are not in the combustion they are in all the junk you pack in the smoker. The *AIR* (which is cool right) passes by all this stuff and they hitch a ride. Germs affect the body depending on how they enter the body. Most that you eat are killed by your digestive acids. Those that you breath can enter the blood stream through the lungs. Some filtering can occur in the nose and nasal passages and hopefully blown out with a sneeze. But many will get you sick.


Then you go off on "germs affecting the body", "digestive acids", and "cigarettes" that have nothing to do with effects of smoking a bee hive (certainly you dont think that a bee hive is a human body that has a digestive track.


----------



## Elwood (Apr 8, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Is there alot of that sort of stuff in your hives?


It's just a figure of speech in my circles,


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I just remembered the BBQ connection to hive smokers.

In the South West, they often use mesquite for BBQ and their smokers.

My error.

Now what's this about pathogens coming out of smokers?

I would say potential honey contaminants can come from a smoker depending on what you are burning.

I don't know off hand of any biological contaminants that can come off of a smoker and potentially contaminate honey.

But, it might be worth a google.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No WLC, it isn't.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Maybe you're right.

All I could find was a reference for transport of virus and bacteria in smoke produced by laser ablation.

http://www.buffalofilter.com/PDF/LSM-Capizzi.pdf

So, it's not impossible for bacteria to be transported in smoke.


----------



## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

Well, all yawl have hit around the issue. Some very close to the ?Truth? of the matter. A specific question was asked earlier. Why does the smoke calm the bees? The old thought was that the bees' home is made of wax. All they have is in the wax cells: babies, pollen, and nectar/honey. The wax melts in heat - smoke means fire - wax melts in fire's heat - wax is made using honey - suck up as much honey as I can - get ready to fly - find home - make wax - quickly, as I also have to use honey for energy to fly and stuff.

The new way of thinking that comes from these Drs. and Professors of Entomology is that the bees smell with their antennae. The nicotine in the smoke coats the antennae and the bees cannot smell. (Sorta like when you get a head cold and cannot smell or taste anything.) It confuses the bees who smell hundreds of thousands of odors and pheromones on a daily bases. When the bees get confused, they, like most humans, go and eat and sometimes gorge themselves and get so full that they don't want to bend. They have to bend to sting, but they feel that if you don't hurt them, you can do anything you want then go away. However, they can still bend enough to sting if you hurt one or make her feel threatened.

As far as harming the bees, those same Drs. and Professors of Entomology have made studies to determine if the bees are being harmed by the smoke and have found that some of the smoker fuel will make them mad, or upset, or downright crazy, but it doesn't physically harm the bees. You kill more bees by squashing them with frames, boxes, lids, or your fingers than you kill with the smoke. Bee Happy and enjoy your bees no matter how you work them.

The bee has a comb on each of the front legs that she uses to clean the antennae and that is why you need to re-smoke occasionally.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Were we contaminating honey by use of smokers, seems like it would have come up before. The same w/ the ill effects that smoke may have on bees. Were it so, to a significant degree, we would have heard about it ages ago and found alternatives.


----------



## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

has anyone ever concidered what the smoke does to the beekeeper. the old bailer twine had a coating to kill mice. some use poison sumac bobs. pine needles are probably not good. I have thought about this for years, but it a necessary evil. now we use wood pellets. just food for thought.


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Peaches said:


> ..... The nicotine in the smoke coats the antennae and the bees cannot smell....


Um, I use pine needles, oat straw or hay in my smoker. I'm not using Lucky Strikes.

Wayne


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

beeware10 said:


> ....pine needles are probably not good. .....


Why?

Wayne


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

You don't think that some beekeeper out in the southwest hasn't already produced
'BBQ flavored' honey by overusing a smoker burning mesquite?

Heh, heh.

Just don't tell the Texans. They'll start doing it on purpose.


----------



## jim314 (Feb 12, 2011)

WLC said:


> You don't think that some beekeeper out in the southwest hasn't already produced
> 'BBQ flavored' honey by overusing a smoker burning mesquite?


Ok, mesquite in the smoker next weekend. Not for the honey, but because I like the smell, never thought of using that before


----------



## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

I am truly disappointed in this thread. 

I though it would be about the holistic strategy of hitting yourself in the face a few times before robbing honey so you can't feel the stings, verses the use of smoke to calm down the bees before you start. Bummer!


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

WLC said:


> You don't think that some beekeeper out in the southwest hasn't already produced
> 'BBQ flavored' honey by overusing a smoker burning mesquite?
> 
> Heh, heh.
> ...


I use the honey from my hives to produce BBQ sauce that I have used to win thousands of dollars worth of winnings in BBQ compititions. It may not be PETA approved (abuse of bees for human gains), but it does work great. All I can tell you is that the winnings dont come because my honey has a "BBQ smoke" flavor. It's just because honey, instead of HFCS makes a better BBQ sauce. Maybe that is a bad attitude, but dont we all appreciate honey as a product of the hive??


----------



## summer1052 (Oct 21, 2007)

I burn pecan chips in my smoker (Cooler smoke) and use oak on my BBQ. :thumbsup: I only use mesquite CHARCOAL if I'm grilling steaks. Mesquite can be awfully strong . . . But the trees make good honey! 

Still waiting to hear alternatives to smoke in AHB country. If any.

Sum
opcorn:


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

What do you think is in most of the marinades we use for grilled meats?

I think that some might say that one reason to reduce the use of smoke is that you not only agitate the bees, but it could put things into your hive/honey that are undesirable.

There are alternatives to smoking bees.


----------



## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

Wayne,

As far as I can tell, all wood based smoke has nicotine and/or some form of creosote. Pine needles have both. It is the creosote that is gumming up your smoker.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> You don't think that some beekeeper out in the southwest hasn't already produced
> 'BBQ flavored' honey by overusing a smoker burning mesquite?


Seriously? No.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Scrapfe said:


> I am truly disappointed in this thread.


Can't please everyone.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

summer1052 said:


> Still waiting to hear alternatives to smoke in AHB country. If any.
> 
> Sum
> opcorn:


Gasoline or diesel?


----------



## yantabulla (Jan 9, 2011)

2766 views & 116 replies & no constructive criticism of my joinery work. 

We had another 3 inches last night. 15 inches overall.

My bees are high & dry on their stands. Makes them hard to work but the water flows around them.

Still into smoke.

Happy Beekeeping


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Peaches said:


> ... all wood based smoke has nicotine and/or some form of creosote. Pine needles have both. ...


I knew that nicotine was found in plants in the nightshade and Solanaceae families. Can't say I've ever found reference to nicotine in wood.

Wayne


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WLC said:


> Maybe you're right.
> 
> All I could find was a reference for transport of virus and bacteria in smoke produced by laser ablation.
> 
> ...


All you could find ... and that isn't enough? It proves my point doesn't it? Just because I am not an expert bee keeper doesn't mean I haven't been exposed to pertinent information.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> The same w/ the ill effects that smoke may have on bees. Were it so, to a significant degree, we would have heard about it ages ago and found alternatives.


Mark, that is like burying your head in the sand. I don't know what long term affects smoke has on bees all I know is smoke in general is not good for living things that breath oxygen.

When there was just feral bees they were not exposed to smoke on a regular basis. Now people believe there are no feral bees so now all the bees are being exposed to smoke on a regular basis. No one can prove why we are loosing so many colonies. In my mind smoke could be a contributing factor because it is such a common factor that is not totally understood.

That being said, I will continue using smoke unless someone like WLC can point me in another direction that sounds a whole lot better. The idea here is to keep an open mind.


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Acebird said:


> ...and that isn't enough? It proves my point doesn't it?...


No, it doesn't. I believe what would prove your point is by providing specifics of what virus and bateria could be found in materials traditionally used in a smoker that affects the health of bees. That would prove the point, not that polio vaccine virus can survive the blast of a laser beam in a lab.

I will concede that one might imagine there possibly could be a problem if a beekeeper was regularly stuffing the bodies of dead bees killed by AFB in his or her smoker as fuel, though I hardly believe that would realistically prove your point. Any specific, real-world example would suffice.

Wayne


----------



## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

> I don't know what long term affects smoke has on bees


What would bee long term on a bee that only lives 6 weeks :s


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

If one is really worried about the introduction of pathogens into a hive by spraying versus smoking - Think about the bioload of bateria living in a plastic spray bottle that is filled with vinergar or sugar solution that sits around for days (in the warm sun) and is not properly sanitized on a regular basis. How many times have we heard stories of fermenting sugar solution? A veritable soup of yeast and bacteria. Now we are supposed to worry about some yet undefined pathogen that may survive in smoke? The very same pathogens that already live in the local tree branches and leaves (that we use for smoker fuel) that the bees are already exposed to on a daily basis?

Seems like a loooong stretch of the imagination to me. But then again as long as somebody can produce a single data point from a reference paper that is completely out of the realm of the discussion and has no application whatsoever to the subject at hand, some people take it as gospel. 

Also as mentioned above bees only live for 6 weeks. You have to take exposure duration in to account. If I only lived to 6 weeks, I could chain smoke cigarettes and crystal meth and wouldnt have a big impact on my health. 

Got to love the interweb!


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Yes, acidophillic bacteria, etc., can be found in a spray bottle of apple cider vinegar.

Bees only live for 6 weeks?

What about the bees that make it through winter? They live for months at least.

oops! Almost forgot about the queen. They live for years.

I'll agree that smoke can transmit viable microbes to a hive. Sprayers as well.


----------



## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I'm struck by how hard we work to supply clean syrup and all the while, the bees freely visit the bird feeder, the chicken waterer, etc. I think we're forgetting that they have different expectations than we do.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Ravenseye said:


> I'm struck by how hard we work to supply clean syrup and all the while, the bees freely visit the bird feeder, the chicken waterer, etc. I think we're forgetting that they have different expectations than we do.


Good point. I have on occasion, caught my bees drinking water seeping from my septic drain field. At least I can still lable my honey as 100 percent organic.


----------



## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Nabber I agree with the basic premise of most of your posts but the honey your bees produce is hardly organic. That would be impossible to prove. You do keep bees in Kansas correct? As far as smoking bees this thread has obviously created a life of its own. I "generally" smoke my bees depending on the manipulation at hand. When supering during our honey-flow I rarely find the need to smoke a colony that hardly realizes their being manipulated in the first place. I'm adding supers to the top of the hive not digging into the bottom brood box, so why would I want to fill the colony with smoke and allow it to taint the delicate flavor of our fine desert premium grade honey? As honey is hygroscopic that would be a concern to me, with 20 frames of open nectar available. If this post has proven one thing that is that many beekeeping "beliefs" are based solely on tradition and hardly on what happens to honeybees when they are smoked. Maybe when we all become bees lets have a good laugh at the posts here and some of the pure speculation being presented. In New Mexico we have an abundance of cedar and juniper trees. One well known individual instructor here professes to have found a cure for mites by simply burning the juniper bows in his smoker when he visits his hives. He even witnessed the bees grooming themselves after he usues this particul smoke and the mites just fall off because of it. Go figure.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Mark, that is like burying your head in the sand. I don't know what long term affects smoke has on bees all I know is smoke in general is not good for living things that breath oxygen.
> 
> The idea here is to keep an open mind.


Open mind? Sure, I'm all for that, But, let's spend our time worrying and doing something about something that is real and a real concern.

Lioke I pointed out, there can hardly be any long term effects of smoking bees when honeybees only live 6 weeks. And may only get smoked once, or twice at the most, during their life. The smoke would have to be more effective and pretty immediately to be killing colonies of bees.

Consider the things that we know kill colonies of bees. How do they act in a hive and in a colony? How long does it take and how much exposure does it take.

Viriulence and strength. Susseptibilty. Think about it.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Riskybizz said:


> Nabber I agree with the basic premise of most of your posts but the honey your bees produce is hardly organic. That would be impossible to prove. .


Guess I should have put the smiley thing in my post. I was being facetious.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

waynesgarden said:


> No, it doesn't. I believe what would prove your point is by providing specifics of what virus and bateria could be found in materials traditionally used in a smoker that affects the health of bees.


I don't know what virus and bateria are harmful to bees. Do you? Then list them I will guarrantee they are there in the smoker. It is not that they are there it is how then can get into the bee to do damage. Smoke is a carrier. Is it something to worry about? I don't know but it could be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_bee_life_cycle



> The average lifespan of a queen is three to four years; drones usually die upon mating or are expelled from the hive before the winter; and workers may live for a few weeks in the summer and several months in areas with an extended winter.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

'I don't know what virus and bateria are harmful to bees. Do you?'

You're kidding? Right?

I wouldn't worry too much about smokers being a major transmission source for honeybee pathogens.

Beekeepers themselves are a far more likely transmission source.


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I don't know what virus and bateria are harmful to bees......Is it something to worry about? I don't know but it could be.


I'll just take your word for it that that you just don't know and that guarantees based on a lack of knowledge are just too silly to debate.

In the meantime, I'd suggest that you pay at least some attention to the Diseases and Pests forum to gather some of the most basic information about what diseases bees are susceptable to. Start with American Foulbrood, European foulbrood, and the two nosema fungi. These are a but few that every beekeeper should at least be aware of.

Wayne


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I dont know if meteorites falling out of the sky have virus and bateria that are harmful to bees. Do you? Then list them and I will guarrantee they are there in the meteorites. It is not that they are there it is how then can get into the bee to do damage. Meteorites is a carrier. Is it something to worry about? I don't know but it could be.

:scratch:


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Yet another reason for 'no smoke beekeeping'. The 'Andromeda Strain'.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

bwahahahaha

:lpf::lpf::lpf:


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I don't know what virus and bateria are harmful to bees.


That right there will kill your bees faster than anything coming out of your smoker.


----------



## The Professor (May 18, 2011)

Can some of you describe how to know you're using too much smoke or that the smoke is too hot? I added a second deep to my hive two weeks ago and when I examined the bottom box today I couldn't keep the bees down in the frames. I couldn't hardly move frames without crushing bees. They kept coming to the top and over the sides of the hive with a lot on the edges fanning their wings. At the time I just thought it was too many bees in the bottom box, but after reading some of the comments here I think maybe I used too much smoke or it was too hot. It was a little overcast today and a little breezy, but not excessively so.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When you see sparks flying out the smoke hole, that's tyoo hot.
When you set your smoker down and some smoke rises out of it on its' own, that's good and cool enuf.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As someone who has lived in a tipi with an open fire and smelled like smoke a good portion of my life, I have trouble with the concept that smoke is such a terrible thing. The bees are hardly doing a "pack a day". They are getting smoked a few times a year. I get smoked a few times a night when living in a tipi or sitting by a campfire.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I know someone who spends their summer living in a a teepee. Some folks just can't appreciate the benefits of living in a modern trailer. 

I don't think that using a smoker is such a terrible thing either. I do think that since we now know more about IAA and the sting response, and how smoke and other substances can inhibit it, then we are no longer limited to using a smoker.

Frankly, I don't feel that I'm missing out on lugging around a hot smoker or going through a ritual of lighting one up. I just toss my sprayer into the bucket along with my other gear without having to worry about scorching/melting anything. Plus, I always have one hand free.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It must cause some problems carrying even an unlit smoker w/ you in an elevator. Alarms would be going off all over the place if you tried that w/ a lit one.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I guess that I should clarify my position a little....


I am not pro-smoke or against any of the various liquid sprays that are being used out there in internet beeland. Whatever gets the job done (calm bees) for any given beek is fine with me. If someone says that they fart in their hives to calm their bees (because their granddaddy did it) and it works for them. Great, I have no problem with that (that is, no problem with you personal experience in calming bees - but I sure wouldnt be eating any of your honey). I am not going to whine about not having rigorous scientific proof to back it up.


However, I take issue when somebody says that smoke is evil because it is proven by (_insert your completely irrelevant internet science reference, or horribly flawed scientific theory that you dreamed up because you were previously burning hemp in your smoker here_).


Conversely, it is just as bad when somebody says that spraying (_insert favorite mystery liquid here_) works because it is proven by (_insert your completely irrelevant internet science reference, or horribly flawed scientific theory that you dreamed up here_). 


That's all.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Nabber:

'(insert your completely irrelevant internet science reference, or horribly flawed scientific theory that you dreamed up here).'

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean the Hunt reference? 

If you don't think that apple cider vinegar is as effective as smoke in preventing the sting response and recruitment, I'd love to hear about it.

How about HBH? Would you say that essential oils are ineffective as well?

Hmmm?


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

No, no, no. The Hunt reference was very relevant and a great addition to this thread. I know it swayed my opinion as to how smoke works in a hive. You may recall that I was a proponent of the smoke = fire = honey gorging = fat happy, non aggressive bees earlier in this thread. I will have to re-think that now. However, I am still not sure if the smoke = happy bee effect doesnt have some truth to it, along with the pherome masking properties of the smoke. Could be possible that both effects are working together to calm the bees? Proving the pherome theory doesnt necessarily disprove the smoke = happy bee theory. 

Posting *irelevent* links from blogs, Wiki, or other such nonsense doesnt help much. Not sure exactly where the Laser Plume Debris reference falls. Although the study was performed by doctors and presumably they designed, performed, and reported a good experiment. It does conclude that certain pathogens can survive high heat, but I am not sure if lasar vaporaization of Staphylococcus, Corynebacterium, or Neisseria in an opperating room environment is relevant to pathogens that may or may be present in bee smoke, and that these pathogens have a deleterious effect on honey bees. 

As far as vinegar, HBH, or any other spray - if someone has personal experience and emperical evidence indicating that it works, I cannot argue with that. If they want to include *relevant* scientific references with their anecdotal evidence, then all the better. We can then proceed with logical discussion and maybe we all learn a few things along the way.


----------



## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

In an attempt to convert disjointed knowledge into 'scientific' facts to support hypothesis that there is no evidence (scientific or otherwise) to support, some of us are throwing around ‘facts‘ like a sailor rolling dice. 

Using the strategy employed by others here, I can PROVE that washing your hands is un-healthy.

The CDC (I think it was) recently issued a report that there were 225-ish microbes per square inch on the average public toilet seat. 

Now before you start lugging around a couple of concrete blocks to stand on in case you need to visit a public toilet, in the same report the CDC also said that the average public restroom lavatory handle harbored 5,000 or so microbes per square inch, and the drain a staggering half a million. By using these facts anyone with a lick of 'scientific' sense can readily see that washing your hands after using the public faculties is more dangerous and much more un-healthy than sitting on a communal toilet seat. 

After reviewing the data I suppose someone could now claim that toilet seats make the best smoker fuel, but I for one refuse to go there.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Maybe not in Alabama but in New York there are no handles. They are electronic and come on simply by putting your hands under the faucet. Secondly, most people are not in the habit of touching other people's butts so the likelihood of transmitting diseases is very low. But maybe if you have the habit of blowing smoke up someones butt you could be at risk.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Nabber:

I would characterize the laser ablation/bacteria in the smoke link as 'peripheral'. I don't think that microbes in smoke is relevant to the 'no smoke beekeeping' issue either. But, smoke contaminating honey is relevant.

While there was at least one study showing how smoke can inhibit the effect of isoamyl acetate on the alarm receptor, it still falls short of being definitive.

After thousands of years of using smoke to calm bees, and centuries of scientific advances, we still don't know exactly which components in smoke are responsible for blocking the action of IAA, the alarm pheromone.

Kind of 'lame', isn't it?

The only particular substance identified as being able to block the alarm pheromone (like smoke) was phenylacetaldehyde.

I would also be very careful about dismissing some of the structural similarities between IAA, phenylacetaldhyde, and acetic acid in vinegar. Some acetic acid bacteria can produce phenylacetaldehyde as well as acetic acid, you know.

Competitive inhibition at receptor sites for pheromones is the kind of thing someone trained in the biological sciences would look for. The first thing we look for is structural similarities. It's how we think.

So, until definitive studies and the 3D structure of the receptor for the IAA receptor on honeybee antennae come to light, I'll say that I'm qualified to hypothesize that an acetate/acetyl group is required for binding to that receptor.

That's my gut instinct. That's my training. Or, what's a degree in Biological Sciences for?

So, I'll keep using apple cider vinegar until some study, or a really bad experience, proves me wrong.

Perhaps one day, soon, we'll know.

I'd start here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/protein?term=honey bee OR Apis mellifera and odorant receptor


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Maybe not in Alabama but in New York there are no handles.


Butt, strangely enuf there is a handle on the stall door and on the door exiting the washrooms. So what's the point of washing your hands before exiting the washroom only to have to grab a bacteria laden handle on the way out. There shoul;d be sinks outside trhe wash rooms. Or no doors.


----------



## summer1052 (Oct 21, 2007)

Okay, so now I'm curious. Next time I'm called to handle "hot" bees, aka AHB, I'll try cider vinegar and give you an anecdote on vinegar vs. smoke. Nothing planned at the moment, but I'll post it when it happens.

Summer


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

It's cider vinegar and water isn't it? Not sure the ratio - but it's not straight vinegar. 

I have considered having a bottle of it to hit very specific areas with. For example today I smoked the bees and they were very calm as I was working, but I decided to scrape out some drone brood to check for mites and of course as the cells and larvae were pierced, the bees responded accordingly. It was breezy, so directing smoke to a specific spot was impossible. I found myself thinking that a small squirt bottle would be nice to have to spar just on that section of comb - hopefully reducing the reaction. I'd like to try spraying a section of comb BEFORE I scratched it and seeing if it makes a difference.

I'll give it a try and report later.

Adam


----------



## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Acebird said:


> Maybe not in Alabama but in New York there are no handles...


No on off handles on New York lavatory sinks! Really? Shazam, Sargeant Carter! :scratch: In that case remind me to forgo shaking hands with New Yorkers!


----------



## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> ... There shoul;d be sinks outside trhe wash rooms. Or no doors.


Heck, here in Alabama we ain't had no door on our toilet since the last time the woods caught on far.


----------

