# Thumping or drumming for bees... Does it work and how?



## westtnbeekeeper

I have a question/curiosity for the older more experienced bee folk. 

There is a story that has been told to me from two separate and unrelated people about a trick to remove bees from structures (I assume new swarms that have moved into a structure) and bushes (swarms that haven't located a suitable cavity to move into).

Case #1. A swarm moved into one of my co-workers attic. He placed a call to servall pest control who contacted said bee whisperer. According to my co-worker the bees had begun building some comb. The man showed up with a smoker and a 5 gallon plastic water jug and supposedly entered the attic crawlspace with the smoker and no protective gear. After a few minutes he asked for his jug to be handed up to him and went over to where the bees were congregated and pointed the neck towards them and began rhythmically thumping on the bottom of the jug. The bees just flew into the jug!:scratch: At first just a few and then a steady stream until they had pretty much all been captured. The man stuck a rag in the neck of the jug, scraped down the comb and left. This took very little time to accomplish according to my co-worker. Not sure if it was an hour or 15 minutes. He just said he was gone in "no time".

Case #2 I had gone to capture a swarm from a chain link fence in my brothers front yard and there was a lady next door sweeping her back porch. While I was waiting for the bees to march into the box I put out for them I spoke with her and was told a man with a plastic water jug removed a much larger swarm from a shrub in front of her house two years ago. Exactly the same scenario but she did not mention a smoker which is understandable.

I have asked around the area and nobody has any knowledge of this technique. I don't know if servall would be willing to give me the mans contact information just to satisfy my curiosity. 

I have to assume that there is some kind of lure or attractant in the jug but have no idea what it might be. 

It would be nice to be able to do this because the bees at that one particular location have lit in the latch of a chain link fence twice now and they are troublesome to shake out of the wires and chain.

Thoughts... Impressions...

Tim:s


----------



## tech.35058

I have heard of this technique also, also about third hand information.
My understanding is no attractant is used, & in the tales I have heard, it was a box, & so may not matter which.
I would like to learn this technique, also. ... CE


----------



## Phoebee

I thought I remembered a thread on this a year or two back, so I searched the archives. It has been discussed before. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...e-about-bring-a-swarm-down&highlight=drumming


----------



## whiskers

It's called "drumming", there are many reports of it, some quite old. I've not seen it done and remain somewhat skeptical. It's a durable story though, if it doesn't work.
Bill


----------



## Phoebee

Its would be interesting if it DOES work. Generally bees have a short defensive hiss (short burst of wing buzzing) if you thump their hive. One gets the impression they don't like it, so why would it attract them to a container? Is it possible that they make some kind of drumming themselves, when entering a new hive, that we can't hear?


----------



## Michael Bush

If you drum an established hive the bees move up. The more you drum, the more bees move up. It will not get bees to abandon an established hive. Drumming also seems to work to get a swarm (homeless bees) to move into a box. All you have to do is "tap tap tap". No need to hit hard. It's the rhythm more than the volume. The guy in the attic probably removed the comb that was there, put it in the bucket and drummed them into the bucket or there was no brood in the comb.

I usually use a pocket knife or my leather man, but a small stick works too. Just tap it in a rhythm. 

https://books.google.com/books?id=V...epage&q=farmers bulletin 961 drumming&f=false


----------



## RobWok

I think it stimulates the hum that you hear when bees are marching in. Whatever you're drumming on, the vibration at least rolls over the vibration sound of a large number of bees all buzzing to push the nasonov pheromone back from the entrance. Bees may use the smell and the sound to home in on a new hive. It'd be interesting for someone to perform an experiment to identify the pitch of that vibration, then play it back. By drumming, you may hit that vibration at some point as what you're hitting on vibrates the loses the pitch at the vibration wanes.


----------



## Andrey Limonchenko

Langstroth describes this method in his book "Hive and the Honey Bee"


----------



## westtnbeekeeper

Thanks to all for the replies... Nice link to the farmers bulletin... Past thread interesting as well... I had done some searches and not found much. There was a video on youtube that more resembled a jug band rapping sticks on tables. I think they were attempting to lure a swarm down from a tall tree with not much success. 

I hope to give this a try in the spring. Will post any observations. Success or failure.:kn::kn:

Trying to dig bees out of a chain link gate has gotten me poked a few times. Not really stung I don't think, because I was scraping upward into the bees backsides. Also the violent shaking of the fence to dislodge the last of the hangers on did nothing for their disposition.


----------



## Andrey Limonchenko

I've posted this method previously, and have tried it a few times this year. Have not lost a single swarm this way. It's not a fast method, but it does work gently on the bees, especially when you can't readily shake them off.


----------



## jcolon

My account of it, as I heard it when I was little, is that if you see a swarm on a tree or passing by, you take a kitchen pot and a spoon and hit it at a steady rhythm and the bees will just come to the source of the noise.


----------



## Qkrwogud

Michael Bush said:


> If you drum an established hive the bees move up. The more you drum, the more bees move up. It will not get bees to abandon an established hive. Drumming also seems to work to get a swarm (homeless bees) to move into a box. All you have to do is "tap tap tap". No need to hit hard. It's the rhythm more than the volume. The guy in the attic probably removed the comb that was there, put it in the bucket and drummed them into the bucket or there was no brood in the comb.
> 
> I usually use a pocket knife or my leather man, but a small stick works too. Just tap it in a rhythm.


Does this technique work when you put a new box on a brood box, to try get them to go up? Especially in the scenario where there is a queen excluder and they aren't willing to move up.


----------



## Rolande

A French language video which shows bee 'driving':

http://vimeo.com/user13687887/arbreauxabeilles


----------



## Michael Bush

>Does this technique work when you put a new box on a brood box, to try get them to go up? Especially in the scenario where there is a queen excluder and they aren't willing to move up.

Running them up into a box doesn't make them stay. Baiting them up with drawn comb or brood works better.


----------



## jwcarlson

Michael Bush said:


> If you drum an established hive the bees move up. The more you drum, the more bees move up. It will not get bees to abandon an established hive. Drumming also seems to work to get a swarm (homeless bees) to move into a box. All you have to do is "tap tap tap". No need to hit hard. It's the rhythm more than the volume. The guy in the attic probably removed the comb that was there, put it in the bucket and drummed them into the bucket or there was no brood in the comb.
> 
> I usually use a pocket knife or my leather man, but a small stick works too. Just tap it in a rhythm.


Whenever I tap on mine they come pouring out the bottom entrance. Maybe I'm not drumming long enough or at the wrong frequency.  Or maybe yours move up because they have to to get out of the hive?


----------



## Dave Burrup

This is one of the old beekeeping practices that I put in the folklore category.


----------



## Rolande

Dave Burrup said:


> This is one of the old beekeeping practices that I put in the folklore category.


Why?


----------



## Michael Bush

>This is one of the old beekeeping practices that I put in the folklore category.

I would put it in the "tried and true" category. Drumming bees moves the bees. Always has. have you ever tried it?

You can watch it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLdtzUY91oQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKx4_auu5J0


----------



## dsegrest

I've been told that the drumming or beating on pots was originally a way of claiming the hive. In old England you could cross private property if you were chasing a swarm.


----------



## Dave Burrup

What I term folklore is beating on pots and pans to cause a flying swarm to settle so it can be collected. Slapping a box full of bees to drive them out and back into the main part of a hive is not what I think of as drumming. If that is what you term as drumming then yes I have tried it many times when harvesting supers. I collected a hive of bees in the hollow tree limb this past summer. The chain saw did very little to move the bees. That hive is the calmest bunch of bees I have ever seen. I did the complete collection without gloves or a bee suit. Again what I consider drumming is beating on pots and pans to cause a flying swarm to settle.


----------



## Phoebee

Dave Burrup said:


> Again what I consider drumming is beating on pots and pans to cause a flying swarm to settle.


Ah, didn't read the first post?


----------



## SeaCucumber

Will a cell phone vibrator work? Is there an ap for that?


----------



## Bdfarmer555

A little off topic, but an idea for hard to shake swarms is a McDonald's tea cup/lid. I caught a swarm from a mailbox once. Used the lid to "herd" the queen into the cup. The rest started fanning immediately.

As I put the lid onto the cup, the workers began going into the straw hole, which worked as a one way door. I laid the cup into a cardboard box and in 15 minutes, had them all ready to take home. 

Might work on that chain link fence.


----------



## Michael Bush

>What I term folklore is beating on pots and pans to cause a flying swarm to settle so it can be collected. 

In the context of beekeeping and swarms, that is called "tanging"

>Slapping a box full of bees to drive them out and back into the main part of a hive is not what I think of as drumming.

In the context of beekeeping that is called "drumming"


----------



## westtnbeekeeper

Bdfarmer555 said:


> . Used the lid to "herd" the queen into the cup. The rest started fanning immediately.
> 
> That would be great... Thanks again to all for the replies. If I could find her majesty in the ball of bees that is...
> 
> I have never took time to look for her. First two swarms I never even photographed them. I guess I just get too excited and over anxious. Will the queen usually be in the middle of the ball of bees or closer to the outer shell. Do they cling or group tightly to her or allow her to move around freely?
> 
> I would say I have just been lucky so far and always fumbled her into the hive body without injuring her and the rest march in eventually.
> 
> I'm going to try the water jug thing just to satisfy my curiosity if get the opportunity. It would be nice if it actually worked.


----------



## Michael Bush

Both tanging and drumming have been around for as long as anyone can tell:

'Aristotle, who lived over 2200 years ago, tells, in his “Story of Animals,'' Lib. IX: “Bees seem to have a liking for noise and from this observation it is claimed that, by making a noise and striking upon earthen jars, one can gather the swarm in the hive. However, whether they hear or not, we do not know whether it is pleasure or fear which induces them to gather together when there is a noise.” '--C.P. Dadant 1922 ABJ in a note in Letters to Huber

"The custom of beating kettles and caldrons has been practiced at all times and I believe everywhere, and I do not understand any better than you do what influence it could have. The bees which are hived in glass hives do not seem to take any notice of thunder. I have caused the beating of drums about my apiary and, although I used, to make a noise, all the cauldrons, The watering-pots and the bells, that has never succeeded in stopping a flying swarm for me; one succeeds a great deal better in this by throwing at them water or dirt. This prejudice has perhaps been established for the benefit of bee owners, who, knowing through this noise that a swarm is out, soon ascertain whether it has escaped from their apiary and may claim it; I have seen that reason in Oliver De Serres' or in some other agricultural book."--Francis Huber, in a letter to Miss Elisa De Portes


----------



## Qkrwogud

Could this method be used to try and lure out a swarm that went into some kind of building vent?(No idea how deep they are)
This is where they are:


----------



## Groundhwg

My dad and I were talking about catching swarms and he told me that when he was a boy working on their farm that he had heard that people telling stories about when working in the field if someone saw a swarm of bees they would start pounding on their plow or other equipment with a hammer or ax to attract the swarm. Once the swarm collected on the farm equipment they would return with a box and capture the bees. Said he had never seen it happen and really did not believe it would work.


----------

