# Beginners: Sources for Treatment-Free Queens, Packages Bees, and Nucs



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Beginners: Sources for Treament-Free Queens, Packages Bees, and Nucs*

I think it best that a definition of "treatment-free is spelled out so everyone is one the same treatment-free page. Guess I need to finish up that thread I started awhile back.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Beginners: Sources for Treament-Free Queens, Packages Bees, and Nucs*

For now we'll just have to be detailed and include all the caveats.

First up: 
Don "fat/beeman" Kuchenmeister.
292 Ashley Brook Dr.
Lula GA 30554
(706)677-3502
[email protected]

fatbeeman.com

Small cell nucs, queens, and packages.

Hasn't use pesticides since 1993. Uses essential oils, FGMO and others on occasion. Listen to his podcasts to find more information.

My experience: Good bees, no mite problems, not great for harsh winters. Nucs really give you a good start with small cell comb.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Beginners: Sources for Treament-Free Queens, Packages Bees, and Nucs*



Barry said:


> I think it best that a definition of "treatment-free is spelled out so everyone is one the same treatment-free page. Guess I need to finish up that thread I started awhile back.


I think Barry was suggesting that this thread is a little premature.

Is FGMO fogging a treatment?











How about "dispensing thymol crystals"?

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249706

Don proves that using some treatments doesn't make you a bad person... it just means that your hives are not treatment free.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

*Re: Beginners: Sources for Treament-Free Queens, Packages Bees, and Nucs*



WiredForStereo said:


> fatbeeman.com
> Small cell nucs, queens, and packages.
> Hasn't use pesticides since 1993. Uses essential oils on occasion.
> My experience: Good bees, no mite problems, not great for harsh winters. Nucs really give you a good start with small cell comb.


I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) Don also uses FGMO fogging, along with essential oils as you mentioned.

Nice bees, this is where my two nucs came from last year, getting two more nucs from Don next month. the nucs I received in the mail were very nice 5 frame nucs, and healthy.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Caveats. We have to take what we can get. That's life.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Beginners: Sources for Treatment-Free Queens, Packages Bees, and Nucs*

Next up:
Michael Bush
Southeast Nebraska
bushfarms.com

Queens are a little expensive, but you get what you pay for. His stock is well spoken of.

Uses natural cell, plastic small cell, and other experiments. Readily available here on BeeSource for consultation. No treatments at all for a good number of years.

Unfortunately, he is not offering anything this year, look out for available queens in 2012.

I suggest reading his entire website, there is an absolute wealth of information available. A compendium of beekeeping knowledge.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well as Don treats with FGMO and also OE's he is not treatment free.

However there always seems to be good reports of his bees. So he's partly treatment free, i guess.

Both Dee and Michael Bush don't treat at all I know you can't legally get queens from Dee but does Michael Bush sell queens?

Then there's Robert Russell I know he sells queens that are as treatment free as you'll get in an EHB. I do know that some of the prominent treatment free folks on this site buy queens from him. Here's Roberts site If I was going to buy queens it would be from him. 
http://russellapiaries.webs.com/


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Yes, we've established that Don uses FGMO, and he's really shooting himself in the foot by continuing to claim that he uses it and advertising it on his website even though in a recent interview he admits that he rarely uses it. He keeps virtually all nucs. There's not really a need to treat because the brood cycle gets broken so often.

I would testify in court, I have not had a hive from his genetics that has died from mites. However, I do not recommend them for harsh winters of any scope.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Why is he shooting himself in the foot?

The guy is honest and I think folks appreciate that. I'd far prefer to buy queens from somebody who is up front about what they really do.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I have read a whole lot of webpages from breeders who claim to be treatment free, chemical free, organic, etc. There are always caveats. I can't get the queens I want [Bush] so I have to choose from among the least treating treaters. Just about everybody uses something. These purist treatment vs. treatment free arguments are over in this forum, enough arguing. Accept what is, and let it go.


This thread is about sources of bees for beginners who want to be treatment free.

Caveats, include them. Information is power. Caveat Emptor.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Then it's all a big farce ...


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Point taken, thanks for the input. 

Let's try again. 

We really need good strong information here at the top of the list for beginners when they want to start treatment free.

You are right, Don isn't treatment free. However, he's a valuable resource, and as I have experience, a treatment free operation can be gotten moving using his stock with no losses to mites. However, you may very well suffer losses from a little cold weather, and I would not recommend his bees much north of his area.


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## TwinkieBee (Feb 21, 2011)

I second Russell. He and his dad are super people. I have not done anything at all to my hives since I started them from their packages. My inspector did tests and knew right away that my bees were from Russell. Zero mites zero spores. Calm bees and tons of honey. He told me that they treat the hives that the packages come from but never the ones that are used for queen producing. Must be doing sommething right! I am a very happy girl!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I think with Don, one of his big selling points is having bees on SC. We may have to take what we can get, but let's still call a spade a spade. He isn't treatment-free according to how we here are going to be defining that term. Which reminds me again, I need to wrap that thread up. Did I already say this before?

TwinkieBee, when did you start your hives with Russell's bees? I assume you are not using SC?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Oldtimer said:


> Then there's Robert Russell I know he sells queens that are as treatment free as you'll get in an EHB.


Again, this really tells me nothing. I have no idea what "as treatment free as you'll get" means. It certainly means they're not treatment-free. If we're going to list suppliers here and they're not treatment free, then I want to know exactly how they treat.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

B. Weaver Apiaries

"Ever since then, we have worked to select bees with genetic resistance to Varroa mites, enabling them to survive and thrive in the presence of mites without the need for chemical treatments."

"By 2001 we had gone completely organic."

http://www.beeweaver.com/best_bees.html


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Hi Sol,
I think this thread is Right ON. As long as the criteria is listed its perfect, & the timing is almost late for the season.
Lets get the list rolling, & on topic.

http://www.owa.cc/
Dan & Judy Harvey
46492 HWY 112, Port Angeles, WA 98363
Phone: 360 928-3125 Toll Free: 866 204-3426
E-mail: [email protected]

http://www.oldsolenterprises.com/about.html
Old Sol Enterprises
17101 Ford Rd.
Rogue River OR.
97537

Both sites talk about their treatment free methods. You will need to ask them for more info if you need it.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I started a new thread so we can have a solid beginners resource in a stuck thread without any arguing. I realize the need to be perfectly clear here as any thing less results in massive fighting.

Barry is right. Don is a great resource, but he's not treatment free strictly speaking. But why does there need to be strict speaking anyway? I am strictly speaking treatment free, and I have bought his bees. I have his small cell frames among my equipment. They gave me a really good base to work from. Beginners must have a good base to work from also. They have to start somewhere and they can't start by buying treatment free queens. They need bees, they need packages, they need nucs. If all they can get is "mostly treatment free" then that's what they have to work with and who are we to stand in the way of beginners just because we're purists? We should give them ALL the information and decide for themselves. They're going to have to start thinking critically at some point. Let's not hold them back by simply being critical.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

KQ6AR said:


> the timing is almost late for the season.



Not necessarily. It may be late for making reservations, but TFBs generally run a month or more later than the strictly commercial guys.

According to his website, Michael Bush wouldn't even be taking orders for another month.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Thanks for the kind words Oldtimer and Jackie! 

Barry,

Our selection stock has never had any treatment what so ever used... no feeding, no special management, no sbb, nothing. Most of these colonies have been hives for 30+ years and are inspected 17 times per year (sometimes more), no corrective measures are ever used... this stock is a little over 2200 colonies of many different strains... as you have probably noticed, when selecting our stock, we require it to be able to survive and thrive as if the hives were to be owned by people that would never open them... if they can't be "forgotten" for a few years and still be healthy, we do not use them for selection stock. I will note though that they are isolated away from other genetics, which in turn means that they are also away from pest and disease ridden colonies... they are all allowed to requeen naturally, so the lineages are very, very old. 

Production, resistances, build up, gentleness, conservative store use, and characteristics that are true to each strain are the key points of the selection process.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Any idea why Oldtimer would phrase it the way he did, then?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WiredForStereo said:


> According to his website, Michael Bush wouldn't even be taking orders for another month.


Unless someone else is managing his bees and filling orders for him, Michael won't be filling orders for a year or two. He's kinda busy somewhere else. Not keeping bees, at this time.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I think that takes us right back to that same old argument of treatment vs non treatment... 
I am not "anti-treatment", just like many, I believe that just because I do not have to treat these select colonies, does not mean that others without my resources and experience should have to lose tons of bees trying to get to where I am. I agree with StevenG when he said starting out with genetics that do not have to be treated is the best way for newbees that do not want to treat to go... 

We treat our package production colonies to ensure that no pests are being spread... the queens in our packages are resistant, thus the "treated" bulk bees are replaced by a resistant colony... this stops the spread of pests and helps the spread of resistant genetics.

During the inspections of our selection stock, we occasionally find hives that are not living up to our standards as much as they did the generation before... we requeen these colonies or completely remove them... an extensive understanding of honey bee genetics, biology, and the needs and innerworkings of the industry is required, as well as a small fortune in expenses that does not show a return in comparison to a treating operation. It has to be "in you" to make it happen and keep it happening... 

We have been striving to maintain bees that are the truest to the breeds while extending the lineages to continually improve the production. Thats why we do it... to have "premite" bees, with the highest quality production possible.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

OK, sounds a bit of a "sales pitch" reply. Let's keep this simple and to the point so we all understand what you do and don't do regarding treatments. If I were to buy package bees from you, they will have been treated with what? Give all the treatment details please. Let the public decided from there.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Sam Comfort, near Germantown NY. He normally does not feed at all. He is almost all top bar hive (natural cell size), does not use ess.oils, formic or oxalic, no sugar shakes, no FGMO, no nothing else as far as I know.
He does not ship. He may be sold out of nucs this Spring already, but he may well have queens available to reserve for summer.
http://anarchyapiaries.org/hivetools/


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Zia Queenbees

I've ordered four of theirs for May, we'll see how they pan out. I was interested in hardier wintering ability. I'm going to split them as much as possible to get their descendents with local mating and see how they turn out over this next winter.

http://www.ziaqueenbees.com/index.htm

"We do incorporate conscientious integrated pest management protocols when necessary including supplements consisting of: the Dowda method with garlic powder, grease patties with essential oils and quality bee feed (when necessary) made from quality ingredients—No High Fructose Corn Syrup! We only feed our bees what we feel comfortable imbibing ourselves."

Not strictly treatment free, but there's liable to be a useful gene in there. I won't be treating them in any case.


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## TwinkieBee (Feb 21, 2011)

I only have 4 hives as of yet. Started with 2 packages of Russell bees with sun kissed queens 4 years ago and added 2 more packages of the same the next year. My dad had fifty of their hives for a long time and never treated for anything and never lost any. He sold them when he got too old to take the honey. I wish I would have had the time to take them before he sold them. I missed the chance to order packages from Russell this year but he was nice enough to tell me that he would set a few nucs aside for me later in the spring.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Barry said:


> Any idea why Oldtimer would phrase it the way he did, then?


Hmmm I guess I better answer that.

Reading my post again it could give mixed messages, apologies for that. It was just the wording. As an ex breeder myself, I'm going to be cautious about claiming ANY bee is treatment free. Many claim to be treatment free, but let's face it, even Dee Lusby still loses hives.

Even though a stock has survived treatment free for some time, does that mean it will ALWAYS handle EVERY circumstance? That's why I worded my post in that way.

So having said all that, if you want as near treatment free as exists in EHB, I don't think you can go past Robert Russell.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Hi,
I might be mistaken, but I think Melanies early queens come from their New Mexico yards. You might want to ask if they are coming from Michigan or New Mexico.



WiredForStereo said:


> Zia Queenbees
> 
> I've ordered four of theirs for May, we'll see how they pan out. I was interested in hardier wintering ability.
> 
> http://www.ziaqueenbees.com/index.htm


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Thanks for the info, I ordered two of each. I'm interested in genetic diversity.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Barry said:


> OK, sounds a bit of a "sales pitch" reply. Let's keep this simple and to the point so we all understand what you do and don't do regarding treatments. If I were to buy package bees from you, they will have been treated with what? Give all the treatment details please. Let the public decided from there.


Far from a "sales pitch"... I do not try to "sell" my bees on anyone... we sell out no matter what. My reply was intended to be quite the opposite... it was intended to explain the complexities involved in this type of operation as a warning to those that may be under the impression that its as easy as a "silver bullet". I make every effort to inform people about the risks and the expense that is involved in not treating because I do not wish hardships on ANY bee keeper. They are needed and should have every opportunity to succeed. Our packages are rarely available directly to the public, as they are booked so far in advance that it is less feasible for most bee keepers to order.

Our package production colonies are inspected thoroughly and only treated if mite counts exceed 4 in an ether wash test. The method of treatment is rotated each season as a prevention method for protecting against allowing mites to build resistances. This season the treatment method was an eo mixture of thyme oil and oregano oil mixed with 1:1 and fed via frame feeders within the chosen colonies during the first week of flight... before which all winter stores were removed and afterwards fed back openly as usual. The theory of using the eo's is that the syrup containing them will be fed to the first wave of brood, thus killing any mites in the chambers. I do not like syrup feeding, so the stores are fed back to replenish proper nutrition for the following cycles. This method will only be repeated once this season in the fall. These colonies consist of small cell, natural cell and mostly standard foundation... and are all kept in large mainland yards... they are headed by Sunkist queens and package production is completely separate from our queen rearing, nuc, and study colony operations.

Guess I should mention that our package production colonies consist of small cell and natural cell, as we supply many of the resellers of 4.9 - 5.1 package bees... but are mostly standard foundation.

Jackie, so sorry to hear about the loss of your father. He was a great guy and an excellent bee keeper. He will be missed. I'm so glad that you are continuing in bee keeping. I will help you in any way I can.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

This is what I was looking for. Thank you. I hope we can get this kind of detailed explanation from all the breeders/suppliers we list here. It allows one to make a well informed decision. Remember: "It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is"?


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Another possible source of treatment free bees are the Russians.
http://www.russianbreeder.org/
Several breeders are listed there. You can ask each one his specific protocols. But I've bought Russians from Jester Bee Co. (by mistake, ordered MnHyg, and they gave me Russians instead - I took them) and from Hubert Tubbs. Had them several years, never treated them myself.
Regards,
Steven


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## ginn68 (Apr 14, 2010)

Wiredforstero,
Your right on with Don's bee's not wintering well. I lost 75% of hives from his packages and splits with his queens. I did my mite counts in the fall and they were as high as my "wild" hive, but less than my acceptable threshold . I don't treat my hives either. All of my other hives wintered nicely.

To my knowledge Don is only using Eo's now.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The podcasts claim he only uses essential oils, so I believe you are correct for the most part.

You're not the only one I've noticed who has had similar losses. But you're in Georgia, the rest of us have been further north.

However, despite the losses, those nucs gave me something I had trouble getting in the past, a good start with already drawn small cell comb. I wonder if he would sell comb by itself?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

For Northern Queens that haven't been treated I've been using Full Bloom Apiaries http://www.fullbloomapiaries.com/ 

He did note on his web site that he is monitoring these hives this year and may treat them if they need it. Good hardy queens that build up good in the spring and every queen [12] that went into the winter from his apiary survived the winter.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WiredForStereo said:


> You're not the only one I've noticed who has had similar losses. But you're in Georgia, the rest of us have been further north.


So, isn't it possible that your losses aren't climitization relatede, but instead source related?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

That topic is being discussed in another thread.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You and ginn are discussing it here, so I asked.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

That topic is being discussed in another thread.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

can you post a link to that thread please?

frazz


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252046&page=18


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