# Hive Box Manufacture



## Matt C (Apr 10, 2013)

I am looking to start building my own langstroth hive boxes. I am looking to see if anyone know of the best way to cut the finger joints on the end of the boxes? If there is a machine that is made to do that please let me know where. I would rather not have to do one at a time on my tablesaw. Just looking for help. Thank you all.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource!

Here is a guide to making hive box joints on a tablesaw with a dado blade:

http://www.beesource.com/files/boxjoint.pdf


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## trykonxlgold85 (Feb 7, 2012)

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=y9Sti5hf0Uc&desktop_uri=/watch?v=y9Sti5hf0Uc


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

This looks like a handy little device to cut boxes with


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LgAhqAOFQs&sns=em


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## Greg755 (Jan 29, 2012)

This guy is great to deal with and his Jig is really really good. He also makes a hive handel jig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGRRoFw6lro


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## Tom B (May 11, 2011)

Does anyone know the origin of finger joints for hive boxes? Do they serve any useful purpose? It seems to me that they expose an enormous amount of endgrain to the elements and create a lot of crevices for moisture to penetrate into the wood. I don't use them for my home-made boxes and I have had no issues with durability or strength. Am I missing something?


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## peterlapierre (Mar 13, 2013)

cutting finger joints is a waste of time. A plain rabbet joint on the end when glued and stapled is just as strong and 
less time consuming unless your making some fancy English garden hives.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

After 70 years, the box joint super will be in much more rigid than the rabbit joint. It is your call, are you in this for real, or just a short timer?

Crazy Roland
5th gen. beekeeper


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I just use butt joints with wood glue and 2 in deck screws and take less than 15 min to build and they are solid as a rock with a good coat of paint I will guarentee I will get my $6 worth out of them


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Box joints have been around since roman times, I think. Prior to the introduction of synthetic glues in the 1930's and 1940's, the only substantial joint for boxes was a box joint -- it's the only one that holds indefinitely when dry nailed and pried on at the corners (bee hives).

That said, I found some pictures the other day from my Grandpa's apiary in 1950. He used butt or single rabbet boxes and the ones I saw looked pretty good. Kept them well painted, too, and I'm sure he didn't use glue ( too poor for anything fancy like that). I don't know how well they lasted for him, he quit beekeeping in about 1965 or so.

Box joints are superior for one simple reason - any vertical force on the end of one side of the box is transmitted to the rest of the box, particularly the adjoining board, by the wood itself where the "fingers" interlock. All other joints transfer forces through the fasteners (nails, screws, glue). If the joint every works loose for any reason, only the box joint will stay together in use, all the rest will open up. 

If you don't believe me, try to take a nailed box joint apart without pulling the nails.

Peter


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## carlinmo (Jun 6, 2010)

Folks,

I have developed a new box joint jig that is ideal for beekeepers who want to make their own boxes. Please open this link to the BeeSource For Sale Forum.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?281541-Box-Joint-Jig-by-Carl-Korschgen

Carl Korschgen


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Well said, PSFred. 

To each his own. I plan on building with only box joints.

Crazy Roland


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## Rolande (Aug 23, 2010)

psfred said:


> That said, I found some pictures the other day from my Grandpa's apiary in 1950. He used butt or single rabbet boxes and the ones I saw looked pretty good. Kept them well painted, too, and I'm sure he didn't use glue ( too poor for anything fancy like that). I don't know how well they lasted for him, he quit beekeeping in about 1965 or so.
> 
> Box joints are superior for one simple reason - any vertical force on the end of one side of the box is transmitted to the rest of the box, particularly the adjoining board, by the wood itself where the "fingers" interlock. All other joints transfer forces through the fasteners (nails, screws, glue). If the joint every works loose for any reason, only the box joint will stay together in use, all the rest will open up.
> 
> ...


I'm not disagreeing with any of psfred's post but using it to frame a few thoughts of my own: 

I find, amongst the oldest of my boxes -and some are _old_ the ones which have endured time the best are those with simple butt-joints; still very solid. They're followed by the finger-joint boxes. The least successful always appear to me to be the ones with rebated (rabbet) joints.

My thinking here is, yes the box joints are probably far stronger in the short term but over the years they're more prone to water and trauma damage (remember that these boxes were built without glue so I can't judge whether that might have changed the outcome any). Likewise, the rebated boxes have that weakened point where material has been taken away; they often 'wobble' due to the amount of board that's been removed over the entire length of the joint (interestingly, I've seen these joints referred to by some UK beekeepers as the strongest of all.... they must be using much younger boxes than my examples!). 

Just my thoughts based on observation of old boxes of the three kinds that have been in constant use, side by side, over a period of decades. When I build new boxes now, they get butt-joints.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Rolande, if you put 2 of the wood biscuits on the butt joints I bet they would last even longer.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

With good glue, any joint will outlast the beekeeper and and most of his/her relatives. Use the one you like.

cchoganjr


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

I use half blind dovetails. I can cut both sides of a joint in one pass, and find it much quicker than cutting a box joint.

This is the jig that I use: http://www.amazon.com/Porter-Cable-...r=8-1&keywords=porter+cable+dovetail+jig+4210


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

carlinmo said:


> Folks,
> 
> I have developed a new box joint jig that is ideal for beekeepers who want to make their own boxes. Please open this link to the BeeSource For Sale Forum.
> 
> ...


I consider this comment to be SPAM.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> I consider this comment to be SPAM.

Well, perhaps you were not aware that the only members who can post in the Beesource _For Sale_ forum are those who have paid a subscription to do so. I personally have no problem with the funds to keep Beesource online coming from members who have something for sale! :lookout:

Mr Korschgen even discloses in his post that the link he provided is to the _For Sale_ forum.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Not to mention I watched his video and it's a pretty cool system. I'm no woodworker so maybe I'm just easily impressed, but it looked to me like with that even I could make box joints. I don't know if it's worth $185 plus 10$ handling, plus shipping, but then again I don't know what a good Jig costs. I guess if I found a great local source for wood and was going to make a ton of boxes that would be the way for me to go. Then again I'd still probably screw it up. LOL
Rod


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

So post it in the sale forum, not in the middle of a thread.


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## Greg755 (Jan 29, 2012)

If you want use scrap wood and you dont want to cut box joints you can buy brackets from Echo Bee Box (just google their web site) The Jig I recommended, and later Carl posted about, is a very good system, and will save a lot of headach if you decide to go with box joints... They look easy but they are a real pain if you dont use a jig...


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Depending on whether or not you count the cost of a dado blade, my jib cost either less than a dollar or about $120 (two different dado sets to get one I liked).

You need a board, a slide for the table saw drilled to screw a board to (they all are) and some scrap to cut a locating finger with, and a c-clamp. Takes maybe 20 minutes if you can already operate a table saw, it's not hard. 

Peter


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I am with psfred on this one. Box joints are not difficult to make, if you can operate a table saw. 

There are several good videos on uTube that explain how to make box joints. Make a sled and it is easy. 

cchoganjr


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> I am with psfred on this one. Box joints are not difficult to make, if you can operate a table saw.
> 
> There are several good videos on uTube that explain how to make box joints. Make a sled and it is easy.
> 
> cchoganjr



I just don't have the room for an extra table saw and don't want to hassle with switching back and fort between dado a regular blades


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Harley Craig... That being the case, then go with rabbet joints. Don't have to change blades and is as strong as you will ever need.

cchoganjr


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I may try some with Rabit Joints, but my box joints with deck screws and gorilla glue seem to be holding up well, caught my 6 yr old daughter jumping off one that she turned on it's side I had made up ready to go when I need it , she got a butt chewing and then I check it to see if it was damaged and it was still completly square, who knows how long she had been doing it


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## carlinmo (Jun 6, 2010)

Making beehive components is a matter of safety, scale, and efficiency. 

The type of joint that is used is personal preference but the preference of business customers is often mediated by the standards set by the large manufacturers. Some of the early posts in this thread were links to machines (some probably worth $500,000 or more) that could remotely make box joints in seconds – in thousands of boards a day. Someone who has lots of time (relatively free) and is less interested in a profit margin can have a system that might produce a dozen boxes a day or season. Entrepreneurial beekeepers (now starting regional beekeeping supply businesses) need options to match the scale of their enterprises – be it 100 or 1000 boxes a year. The cost of making any joint is way beyond the cost of a jig and cutting tool. Look around your shop. You need a variety of power machines, dust collecting devices, building, electrical service, handtools, etc. 

Carl Korschgen


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Harley Craig. My apologies, I must have misread your post above. 

If you are making box joints with deck screws and gorilla glue, you will not have a problem. I really doubt that your daughter will do any harm to them the way you are making them.

psfred... What dado set did you go with? I have three sets, and I like the Oshlun the best, but, I have never had the Freud, and people really give them a thumbs up. 

carlimo...you are exactly right. Making bee equipment for yourself from salvage or scrap wood and cheap table saws and dado sets is a whole different ball game than making bee equipment to industry standards on a scale to make it profitable, and with perfection that will insure repeat sales of your products. 

cchoganjr


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Cleo:

My table saw prefers the Oshlun (or a clone) with two chipper teeth on each chipper. It chokes on better blades, not enough power. Probably need to save up my pennies and get a better motor and direct wire it, too much power drop with a cord, even a good one. 

Harley:

I change blades all the time on my saw, I use a rip blade for rips, a combination blade for rips in thin material or plywood, and a good crosscut blade for crosscuts, especially in hardwood. I also cut a wide variety of dados for various purposes, changing blades on a table saw is just part of using one. 

When I'm making boxes, I tend to collect up wood, cut all the sides to length and width, then set up the box jointjig, get everything aligned perfectly, and cut half a dozen boxes or more at one time. All the boxes use the same jig, just more passes for the deeper boxes. That way, once I get it right, all the boxes work out properly. I've got mine set now so that I have to tap the boxes together so there are no spaces between the fingers at all. Just a tiny bit of glue and they are completely sealed. Once they are assembled, I coat them with a generous coat of boiled linseed oil, then alkyd primer, then two or more coats latex exterior paint. 

Peter


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Since the OP was asking how to cut finger joints I find the reply welcome, tastefully stated, and completely acceptable.

I used to send Barry periodic donations to help keep BeeSource going. I'm not aware that he still asks for them instead relying on the ads (some of which I do find annoying and not relevant)


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## rnsykes (May 1, 2013)

As a cabinet maker, I can assure everyone that box joints and dovetails are much stronger that rabbeted butt joints. However, with modern glue and fasteners, they are pretty much useless. If your boxes are assembled with a good quality waterproof wood glue like Titebond3, fastened properly and kept painted, the butt joints won't fail for a good long time. That being said, I build mine with box joints because I have the jig and blade already set up.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Roland has the right idea. Finger Box Joints retain strength after years of outdoor weather exposure. They are not a waste of time - they can be made VERY quickly if you are a production-minded carpenter. Modern glues have not made them obsolete, they have made them even better. I think butt joints are a waste of time. How often do you want to have to build more boxes, every two years? That's all some of them last, and they usually break up when you have your veil off and your meanest colony in that butt-jointed ghetto box. Might as well just buy the cardboard nucs. (A rabbet joint with a biscuit works fair, not great, but takes almost as much time as a FBJ, so why bother?)

On building a sled - make it big and make it tall, and build it such that YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY CUT YOUR HAND! (=build a tunnel that covers the blade on the outpass side) Make it with two runners fitting into BOTH slots in your table saw. I like to cut the notches on the short end side, then trace them onto the long sides. My zero-gap dado plate has lines extending forward from the edges of the cut. The mating side can be "Englished" - leaned over the peg a little bit so that the interlocking fingers line up exactly.

I clamp 8 workpieces onto the sled and cut one slot through all 8 at one time. 4 clamps go onto the workpieces only, so moving them on the peg is easy - just do it cautiously to keep their alignment. Two bar clamps hold the block of 8 workpieces onto the sled. I do spend a few extra seconds making sure they are lined up square with my framing square before making the pass.

Another tip - make the sides of the boxes 1/16" too long. Cut the notches 1/32" too deep. The boxes end up standard size, with the fingers protruding out 1/32". Belt sand these protrusions down level. Your box will look MUCH nicer, and people will think that you are one excellent carpenter, all because you left 1/32" to sand off after gluing and stapling. Your boxes will also last even longer. (Overall size of blanks for short end is 16 5/16" long x 9 11/16" deep if you're making deeps, long sides are 19 15/16" long x 9 11/16" deep. Notches are 25/32" deep.)

A final tip - dip your assembled, glued, stapled, and sanded boxes in 50% Boiled linseed Oil with 50% Mineral Spirits for 3 to 5 minutes. Let them dry for 2 or 3 weeks, then paint them with KILZ II or other good primer and exterior laytex paint. My mentor has some boxes that he did this to in 1973 and they are still in use! Not too bad for wear, either.

I considered using rabbet joints for mating boxes because they are only out for 1 month a year, and usually in good weather. Now, I just cut vertical slots for 1/4" plywood hive partitions down the insides of the short ends of my boxes and use standard frames for open mating, and eliminated the need for mating boxes altogether. 

I'm also cutting all my boxes down to the 6 5/8" Illinois medium depth and using 6 1/4" deep frames. 50 lbs is so much easier on my shoulders than 90 lbs! (It does require 3 medium boxes to equal the honeycomb "real estate" in 2 deeps, and thus costs me 10 more frames, but it's worth the time, effort and money. I don't get all sweaty inside my bee suit handling mediums like I do lugging those [email protected] deeps, and I enjoy the job so much more.


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## Rolande (Aug 23, 2010)

Rolande said:


> I find, amongst the oldest of my boxes -and some are _old_ the ones which have endured time the best are those with simple butt-joints; still very solid. They're followed by the finger-joint boxes. The least successful always appear to me to be the ones with rebated (rabbet) joints......
> 
> .....Just my thoughts based on observation of old boxes of the three kinds that have been in constant use, side by side, over a period of decades. When I build new boxes now, they get butt-joints.





kilocharlie said:


> ...That's all some of them last, and they usually break up when you have your veil off and your meanest colony in that butt-jointed ghetto box. Might as well just buy the cardboard nucs....



lol.

Each to there own, but...

My time's far too valuable for me to waste it building boxes which are going to collapse after a couple of years/are no better than cardboard.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Type of wood probably has a lot to do with it, as does moisture. Some of the ghost towns out in the desert, while dilapidated, still have wood that holds together, but some have very little water damage. Years ago, beekeepers would treat the boxes with creosote, tar, trichloroethane, trichlorobenzine, other preservatives not often used today. 

I saw one bee box washed up on the beach after a storm probably washed it down the river. It was made of white pine treated with cresote, butt joints joined with oak dowels. It was still held together, though not in great shape. It certainly was not strong, and I doubt bees would stay in it. I could make out the brand belonging to a beekeeper who died in 1979.

My buddy still has some of his finger-joint boxes from 1973. He treated them with linseed oil. They still have plenty of weight and hardly any cracks. They are in excellent shape, and still very strong. He thinks that the end-grain exposed is the long-term weakness, and that soaking it in oil is a good remedy. So far, it appears he's right. I notice that the finish on the exposed end-grain has a lot to do with the early weather attack. Rough-sawn end grain gets weathered rather quickly, finish sanded lasts a little better.

The nucs I saw that fell apart on their second year were made of what appeared to be cottonwood, not treated, not glued, and nailed together. They turned crunchy around the nail holes, retaining very little strength.

Seems that you get out of it what you put in to it. I agree about use of time. The same goes for use of wood - it ain't getting any cheaper!

I made a dunking tank for my hive boxes. I had the air conditioning shop make me up some sheet metal for the insides. They soldered it all up, but I still had to seal some of it with silicone glue. I mixed 50% linseed oil and 50% mineral spirits, and dunked the hives inside for 5 minutes. Some of the hives I made last year were never painted, sat out in the desert all year, and still look brand new. I got a feeling that dunk tank and linseed oil was time, effort, and money well-spent. Same feeling about my branding iron.

One more joint that needs to be thoroughly tested is a 90 degree lockmitre joint, which is quick to make, strong, has lots of glue area, and leaves almost zero end grain-exposed. You can glue it, dowel it, nail it, staple it, or screw it together. The only difficulty is getting the lengths exactly right when routing both sides. To that end, I just might make up a molding plane that shape, build the sides oversize, and plane them to finished length. I'll be making up some boxes with these joints soon.


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## rnsykes (May 1, 2013)

For some of us, this is all possible. I considered using dove tails on mine because I like the way they look, and I'm already set up for it. I also could be making these boxes out of cherry or mahogany if I wanted to, but for alot of people, these custom joints and like the lock miter aren't really an option. The rabbet is better than a butt joint in that it gives more surface area to glue, and leaves less end grain exposed. The advantage of the finger joints is that it gives even more glue surface, and it can also hold the boards together if they check. For everyone who isn't set up for making these types of joints, I can assure you that a good glue and mechanical fasteners will hold your boxes together just fine. 
I like the Linseed oil finish. Thompsons water seal used to make a finish with linseed oil, but now it's just denatured alcohol and paraffin. For my money though, an exterior paint will go a long way. The advantage of paint is that pretty much any exterior paint will have a UV inhibitor which the linseed oil finish lacks. Moisture is definitely the most destructive element on a box, but don't overlook sunlight. It does nasty things.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Anybody notice boxes with cleat handles rotting before boxes without cleat handles? I'm talking about old boxes, on the verge of rotting. I'm noticing accelerated rot in 5-year old unprainted boxes around the cleats, despite having glued with TitebondIII and screws mounted from the inside. I'm getting the idea that smile handles could last longer. Comments?


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## rnsykes (May 1, 2013)

no doubt in my mind that the carved handles will last longer. Screws can fail, glues can fail. Thats two weak points that aren't present on a carved handle. You are exposing alot of grain and they should definitely be sealed up, but in my opinion it's the best option. My next project is going to be to set up a jig to carve the handles. I've got an old rockwell circular saw from the 60's that I've been hanging on to that should do just right. My first boxes got some fancy custom handles made from mahogany that were glued and screwed on, then the screws were plugged. They were cut to shed water, and are super comfortable to lift. I'm curious to see how they hold up. I'm not at all worried about the mahogany, they'll far outlast the boxes.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

kilocharlie said:


> Anybody notice boxes with cleat handles rotting before boxes without cleat handles? I'm talking about old boxes, on the verge of rotting. I'm noticing accelerated rot in 5-year old unprainted boxes around the cleats, despite having glued with TitebondIII and screws mounted from the inside. I'm getting the idea that smile handles could last longer. Comments?


Sloped cleats seem to avoid the rot behind the cleat problem. I have them 30+ years old no rot beind the cleats. My friend with level cleat tops has rot and no longer glues.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

rnsykes said:


> My next project is going to be to set up a jig to carve the handles.


I made one this past weekend for one of my table saws and it works really well. I saw a jig on youtube to cut bee box handles and made it similar to that one.


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## rnsykes (May 1, 2013)

hadn't even thought about doing it on a table saw. have an pictures, or a link to the youtube video?


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I didn't take any pictures of what I built. Here's a link to the video I got the idea from. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5yWQCARkUw I used a larger piece of plywood on the deck of the saw than he did, and I only made one 15 degree sled and just use spacers on the sled when cutting the shorter ends of the boxes. I didn't see a need for 2 sleds when a spacer is quick and easy to stick on. I set my blade at a 20 degree angle which with the sled being built at 15% gives a nice undercut on the handle. Really makes it easy to grab hold of. 

One thing I figured out yesterday that is much easier on the blade and saw is to "drop" the material to be cut into the sled when the sled is pushed against the backstop. That lets the dado blade cut the deepest part of the notch using the tips of the blade, instead of the sides of the tips to cut with. I then lift up the sled and material then slide it into the blade as he does in the video. That may not make sense, and if it doesn't, let me know and I'll try to take a short video tomorrow of how I'm cutting them.


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## rnsykes (May 1, 2013)

nope, I got it. thanks for the video. I kinda like the idea of of using the table saw better than the skill saw.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

If you are looking for a safe, easy, fast, way to make the handles, here is a link to my u-tube video to make them with a SkilSaw. Beesource has the plans to make the jig in their, "Make it Yourself", library or, I will e-mail to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaWRjpJ5f0w

cchoganjr


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks for the input on cleats, guys. I guess I'm leaning toward using 2" x 8" material for the short ends and carving out a really deep smile pocket. That should also make VERY strong joints. Of course, it means all new tops and bottoms....ugh!


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

rnsykes said:


> I kinda like the idea of of using the table saw better than the skill saw.


Me too. I've had a skill saw kick back on me one too many times. I much prefer a table saw.

One thing I'll add is that on the 15% sled, if you make it 1 1/2" wider than the long side of a box it will help when adding the cleats on the ends of the sled. You really only need a cleat on the right side of the sled, if you slide it towards the blade from the clockwise rotation side, but put a 1 1/2" wide cleat on each end of the sled, leaving about 1/8" gap on the left side for wiggle room. This will let each cleat stick over the end of the sled by 3/4" and will give a nice hand hold on the sled. My cleats only stick over about 1/4" but I can still use them as a handhold. With a handhold on each end of the sled, you can hold the work piece on the sled with each thumb and keep your fingers wrapped on the handhold which keeps them safely away from the saw blade.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Brad Bee If you build the jig that I use for the Skil Saw, it cannot kick back. It is already against the side stop. There is no where to kick to. I am not freehanding but rather using a jig which holds the saw inside the stops.

I have made thousands of hand holds and have never, ever, had even the slightest problem . 

But, whatever works for you.

cchoganjr


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## HEV261 (Jan 2, 2010)

Maybe some of you guys are still on here if you will google 
John Rohrer. he built one nice all joints on a end at once do a box in less than one min. video on youtube i just ordered one he in wakeman OH


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

John Rhorer YouTube Link CLICK HERE


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Anyone know what the Rhorer machine sells for?

cchoganjr


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Cleo, on another thread $3500 was mentioned.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?295673-finger-joints&p=1087184#post1087184


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Thanks Radar. 

It sure looks like a good machine.

cchoganjr


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## HEV261 (Jan 2, 2010)

Yep 3500 bucks in a couple wk will let you know how good i will be driving to Oh. and pick mine up


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Incidentally, two beehive boxes and a Miller-type hive top feeder toppled down a hillside last week. The boxes are about 5 years old, all stapled profusely, glued with Titebond III, treated with boiled linseed oil, and painted with exterior latex . The Miller-type feeder box built with butt-joints blew up entirely. A rabbeted-joint deep brood box tore out at the staples on one corner, but held at the other (rendered useless, unless I can build a corner and fit that in to the damaged box while not splitting the corner that held...?). The box on top that fell the farthest and hit by far the hardest was a finger-box joint deep brood box. Only the 3/8" rabbet where the frames rest broke out on one side, the joints all look like new (the repair will be easy).

Not a scientific test, just an accident, but somewhat telling about the strengths of the respective joints. *I will be building with the finger box joints from now on!* Had the finger-box-jointed box been made with that new arrangement that Brushy Mountain came up with, I may have had NO damage to that box!

I was just glad my suit was on and bee-tight! Those poor bees were NOT TOO HAPPY with that off-road ride...

One other aspect that could be affecting discussions on comparative joint strength is the wood grain at the joints. Try to avoid knots and wavy grain in the area of the joints - any joint will last longer if the grain is straight and strong around the joints, and I notice that glues all work better when the adjoining grains are about the same size - that is, all tight grain or all large grain, as opposed to large grain into small grain on the mating workpiece (I suspect that the reason is probably different shrinkage rates due to grain size). In fact, I notice that medium to large grains seem to glue better than tight grains (my suspicion here is that tight grains seem more prone to twist, warp, or cup than do medium and large grain woods - but that may well vary with different species), but this is years of subjective observation from building aircraft with spruce and cabinetry from hardwoods, not backed up by testing FBJ's made of sugar pine or Bald Cypress subjected to weather nor scientific study. 

Three things are certain - tight joints, spreading glue on BOTH SURFACES of all joining surfaces, and strong clamping all make stronger joints. Two possible exceptions: 1) if a joint is made, clamped, then disassembled while the glue is still wet, then re-assembled without re-gluing, it may or may not be strong => therefore wipe clean, re-glue and re-spread the glue before re-clamping; 2) if a very wet sponge is used to clean up a small, thin glue joint, it may wash out the glue, rendering the joint weak => therefore squeeze out the excess water from the sponge before wiping off excess glue from a clamped joint.

One more thing is becoming clear - end grain cut oversize and sanded smooth and well-painted stays stronger after 5 years in the weather than does rough-sawn end grain given the same paint and exposed to the same weather. It seems that rough-sawn end grain gets many more splits and checks than sanded end grain. Sanded end grain seems to stay married to the paint better, probably deterring water from causing damage, but again, this is experience from my limited observation on sugar pine belt sanded to 120 grit, not proven through rigid study, unless someone knows of any such studies?...

I suspect that discussion regarding comparative strengths of joints is a case of apples + oranges + opinions = no real data until more thorough studies of destructive testing are made, so for now I'm going with my own experience. So far my experience has a strong bias for the finger box joints accurately cut, well-glued, firmly clamped, and made from straight, medium-sized grained, riff-sawn wood.

Hope this helps...


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## HungryBear (May 28, 2012)

Well hows is this machine?



HEV261 said:


> Yep 3500 bucks in a couple wk will let you know how good i will be driving to Oh. and pick mine up


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Box joints and dovetails are stronger. Then rabbets. Then butts. And the first two hold square better than a butt.

However, one disadvantage I see for box/finger or dovetail joints is that you cannot repair a box. If one side cracks or takes other damage, you will not be able to pry it apart and replace it. But that should be pretty doable on a rabbeted box or a butt.


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## Rob73 (Apr 19, 2009)

If you build one of the box joint sleds, you will not be disappointed. Plenty of plans on the web & youtube to guide you along. I built a few when I started with rabbit and butt joints. You go prying on the corner of the box and they will push apart. Titebond II and Gorilla glue didnt seem to help any. That box joint is a wood on wood joint with a lot of gluing surface. The box will stay square a lot better with the box joints & you can put screws in it from both sides of each joint.

Cutting box joints does come with some expense though. A good dado blade isnt cheap. Plus you have to take the time to setup whatever method you are going to use to cut them.

I will bet if you take the time to setup for box joints, you will be happy you did. I would do like I did. Build a few with butt & rabbit joints & use em for a while. If you dont like it, take the time to make a few box joints. It is up to you, but there is a reason that most of the bee boxes sold commercially are made with box joints.

Rob


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