# Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.



## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

You could have eaten rhubarb and spinach as a test too. But don't blame the EPA for doing its' job. BTW the approval is based on copying the Canadians' approval and their investigations - slightly modified from the European position. The real issue is there is no money in it for Corporations and Businesses. It is a pesticide and was "fast tracked" to get approval. I also suggest you protect your eyes - seriously. 

I used to have the same annoyed position but now my beekeeping schedule and methods have no conflict with the EPA label. 

Fun fact and one not so fun: Oxalic Acid is essential to peristaltic action in the human body - look it up and you will laugh. In some places people eat it, in the form of a "marketed" house-hold detergent, to commit suicide. ( Oh - formic acid is not harmless either!)


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I was scratching my head too, and then it came to me - Darwin Awards.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

username00101 said:


> I ate maybe 1/8th of a teaspoon, which is about 25% of a dose.
> 
> Never developed a single negative effect, not even an upset stomach.


Don't despair, it's still early. 

Alex


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Let us know how you enjoy your kidney stones. I don't think OA will kill you quickly in the amount you would get from honey. I do think you will build up Oxalate Crystals in your kidneys. That is only my opinion and why I would not do it with supers on, for the health of me or my customers.

https://www.healthline.com/health/calcium-oxalate-crystals#symptoms


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

Steve in PA said:


> Let us know how you enjoy your kidney stones. I don't think OA will kill you quickly in the amount you would get from honey. I do think you will build up Oxalate Crystals in your kidneys. That is only my opinion and why I would not do it with supers on, for the health of me or my customers.
> 
> https://www.healthline.com/health/calcium-oxalate-crystals#symptoms


I have had both kidney stones and a heart attack. If I had to do one of them again I would choose the heart attack.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Wow. I am speechless.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Reminds me of an old joke among Amway distributors. Seems that their laundry product, SA 8 was reportedly so safe that it could be ingested without any ill effects. One person attempted to do this as part of a demonstration and promptly lost his voice. The admonition is "Don't drink the SA8". It has stuck with me for 35 years.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Steve in PA said:


> Let us know how you enjoy your kidney stones. I don't think OA will kill you quickly in the amount you would get from honey. I do think you will build up Oxalate Crystals in your kidneys. That is only my opinion and why I would not do it with supers on, for the health of me or my customers.
> 
> https://www.healthline.com/health/calcium-oxalate-crystals#symptoms



Have you ever eaten spinach or almonds before? You're eating the same amount of the same exact chemical that I ingested.

If you didn't read my original post, I clearly stated that I don't treat with honey supers present unless it's unavoidable.

OA doesn't cause Kidney stones at these levels - it's such a negligible level when injected into a hive that virtually nothing makes it into the honey. The amount is on the level of 20-50mg/lb which is an extremely small amount that could never cause any harm.

My original post has clearly drawn some shaken heads, and disapproval.

Does this mean I do full OAV treatments with honey supers present ? Not unless it's unavoidable.
*
Want actual kidney stones? Better not eat too much salad ! *

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/kidney-stones-and-spinach-chard-and-beet-greens-dont-eat-too-much/


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

JWPalmer said:


> Reminds me of an old joke among Amway distributors. Seems that their laundry product, SA 8 was reportedly so safe that it could be ingested without any ill effects. One person attempted to do this as part of a demonstration and promptly lost his voice. The admonition is "Don't drink the SA8". It has stuck with me for 35 years.


Wow, I so remember my parents hosting the Amway meetings and putting "other" detergents in Styrofoam cups and seeing them melt. And writing on the rug with marker and cleaning it with blue stuff, and I got to chew gum and spit it into a hanky that they squished all up then removed with pink stuff. Loved all that stuff. Nothing like a good snake oil sales pitch!! 

Gotta love Rich DeVos... His daughter in law not withstanding....


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

username00101 said:


> I'd strongly argue that OAV is just as harmless as formic acid - can both be used when honey supers are present.


The dose of OA in OAV is per volume and the volume is different with supers on.


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## Plannerwgp (May 18, 2019)

I hope you are kidding as this acid can be extremely harmful even in the vapor format when applied to colonies. There are many beekeepers who will be suffering serious health issues and lung problems from this product and protective clothing is essential. Never even thought anyone would eat it. Maybe you should contact poison control center and ask for help .


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## robson1015 (Oct 29, 2017)

Be careful where you buy your honey if you do buy honey.....


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

Wow, i thought this was a joke. Honestly, I'd never injest any chemical, or bleach into my body, or into honey intended for sale or not. I guess you cleaned your innards off well. Is an acid or wood bleach, used to clean wood. Mold oxidation in and on wood. Selling pure unadultrated honey in p.a. ??? Man, I'd hope you were just making a sic inside joke. Lol, hope you dont experience any short or long term results for this definitely non scientific experiment.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

For anyone who's worried about oxalic acid and kidney stones etc - then you'd better stop eating anything with ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) in it as well - as oxalic acid is produced when ascorbic acid is metabolised.

Life is tough for anxious people.
LJ


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Richinbama said:


> Wow, i thought this was a joke. *Honestly, I'd never injest any chemical* [...] into my body ...


Eh? Somebody clearly hasn't been reading processed food labels very carefully.

... and whatever you do - don't swallow your saliva, as it contains a cyanide derivative. 
LJ


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Plannerwgp said:


> I hope you are kidding as this acid can be extremely harmful even in the vapor format when applied to colonies. There are many beekeepers who will be suffering serious health issues and lung problems from this product and protective clothing is essential. Never even thought anyone would eat it. Maybe you should contact poison control center and ask for help .


Can you name one beekeeper who has suffered any ill affects from using/treating hives with OAV?


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Richinbama said:


> Wow, i thought this was a joke. Honestly, I'd never injest any chemical, or bleach into my body, or into honey intended for sale or not. I guess you cleaned your innards off well. Is an acid or wood bleach, used to clean wood. Mold oxidation in and on wood. Selling pure unadultrated honey in p.a. ??? Man, I'd hope you were just making a sic inside joke. Lol, hope you dont experience any short or long term results for this definitely non scientific experiment.


Heh. This thread is a good example of why I wouldn't dare treat my honey to be sold with OA. 

Even beekeeper's seem to struggle with this concept.. I can only imagine the average American consumer with their lack of education weighing in on this matter.

If you read my original post, it clearly states that I don't recommend doing this for more than personal consumption.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sumb3GYuAT8


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Too funny. I wonder if people on municipal water systems know that bleach is used to chlorinate their drinking water? I even treat my well once a year by pouring a quart of bleach into the well. Of course I have a supply of drinking water set aside as it takes a day or two for the water to become safe again.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

username00101 said:


> Even beekeeper's don't understand basic science here


Seems that way. No measurements, no control, just a declaration after a totally random one time test. Yep, that's 'good science' all righty. Do you even know what you were trying to measure ?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

little_john said:


> For anyone who's worried about oxalic acid and kidney stones etc - then you'd better stop eating anything with ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) in it as well - as oxalic acid is produced when ascorbic acid is metabolised.
> 
> Life is tough for anxious people.
> LJ


Life is tough for reckless people, and sometimes short as well.
But you already know that as a trained chemist and all.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

username00101 said:


> Heh. This thread is a good example of why I wouldn't dare treat my honey to be sold with OA.
> 
> Even beekeeper's don't understand basic science here. I can only imagine the average American consumer with their lack of education weighing in on this matter.
> 
> If you read my original post, it clearly states that I don't recommend doing this for more than personal consumption.


Maybe treating with OA while supers are on is the reason for bitter black gum honey, ya think?


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Beekeepers have always been a competitive and opinionated bunch.

Instead of working together, some feel threatened offended, or aggravated by my post.

I'll just sort through the criticism and hope this information helps someone out there.

Moreover, we already know that OA is harmless and my 1/8th teaspoon experiment isn't enough to cause any harm to humans. We know that a spinach salad contains nearly 600mg of OA, which is more than I consumed.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

If and when the EPA finally removes the restriction on using OA with the supers present, whatever are we going to argue about? Please let it not be bottom boards or upper entrances!

All this talk about eating pure OA (not the smartest thing that I can think of) has got me hungry for a big ol piece of rhubarb pie with a scoop of vanilla ice cream. Yum. OA, the way God intended for you to eat it.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Nearly everyone here knows OA is in common foods we eat. Nearly everyone knows that it has been approved in other countries. Nearly everyone here knows that if you need to do a treatment while your supers are on you can slip in a piece of ply or a political sign to be on the safe side. This is generally acceptable for home consumption among the beekeeping community.
Your silly stunt is just that and, for good or bad, your health is your business. I don't care. What I do care about is the attitude that you know better than everyone else and the defiance of health and food safety regulations. It is detrimental to those that do make a living or a sideline on honey. They depend on the public confidence of it being natural, pure and wholesome.
Yes, you don't sell yours, but you aren't the first beekeeper here that has proudly proclaimed their superior knowledge and glee in ignoring laws meant to protect the public. Because of this, I no longer buy roadside honey on my travels. You just can't trust people to obey the law anymore. J


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

I'll re-iterate: Personal consumption only. I'll also re-iterate that it's unnecessary for the vast majority of beekeepers in the US to treat with OA while honey supers are present.

*I'll just state this: the taste of OA contaminated honey is just slightly sour, not bitter, or burning. 

Doesn't burn going down, doesn't hurt the stomach, or cause any side effects even at 500mg dosages.

OA+honey tastes like sweet lemon juice.*

Well, I think that's the end of this subject. No offense was intended.


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## karenarnett (Mar 25, 2012)

The most dangerous kind of ignorance : When we don't know what we don't know. Sometimes we do know what our areas of ignorance are, but that seems to be the OP's blind spot. Quoting from an informative article on the chemical of the month from one magazine: "Rhubarb became infamous in the First World War when people ate its leaves as a vegetable - and died from too much oxalic acid.....Nutritionists refer to oxalic acid as an anti-nutrient because it interferes with the essential minerals, iron, magnesium and especially calcium.....Oxalic acid can kill by lowering the calcium in our blood below a critical level...."People who have accidentally or deliberately drunk ethylene glycol, which is used as antifreeze in cars, may die of poisoning from oxalic acid, which is formed in the body from the glycol,"....The effect of oxalic acid on calcium is more worrying because it forms insoluble calcium oxalate, crystals of which can grow into painful stones in the bladder and kidneys, especially if our fluid intake is low. Such stones irritate the bladder lining and can trigger cancer, which is why oxalic acid is classed as an indirect carcinogen. " Personally, I'm not worried, because I follow the guidance of scientists. I don't knowingly put myself at risk. And it's not just as simple as "I haven't died yet" or "It didn't make me feel bad." The referenced article: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/science-molecule-of-the-month-oxalic-acid-1592018.html


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Can we just close this thread? 

I'll just eat my OA without sharing it in the future, no matter how tasty and harmless.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Great thread, username.
Highly entertaining. 
Thanks for starting this. 

You ate the OA from Florida Labs, correct?
That Savogran stuff is junk! 😀


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Arnie said:


> Great thread, username.
> Highly entertaining.
> Thanks for starting this.
> 
> ...


Florida labs was the brand that I ate.

It was tasty, especially when mixed with honey.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

karenarnett said:


> The most dangerous kind of ignorance : When we don't know what we don't know. Sometimes we do know what our areas of ignorance are, but that seems to be the OP's blind spot. Quoting from an *informative article *on the chemical of the month from one magazine:


You must be joking - the 'I' is a newspaper/magazine - written by hacks to fill up the space between advertisements. It's not - even in the wildest of imaginations - an authoritative source of anything - it's role is to sell newspapers to the masses.



> Personally, I'm not worried, because I follow the guidance of scientists.


Oh dear. Many years ago, people followed the guidance of priests (some still do) - these days those priests have been replaced by scientists. But - there's something of a problem with this ...

Firstly, it is not (it never has been) the role of science to provide guidance on anything - the role of science has always been to provide explanations for phenomena. Offering guidance is straying into the territory of others.

Secondly, scientists frequently disagree amongst themselves when interpreting their findings.

Thirdly, many scientists simply parrot the opinions, beliefs and assumptions of those who preceded them. You need look no further than "the varroa mite feeds on haemolymph" for a perfect example of this.

It may come as a surprise to learn that a lot of science is still conducted on a 'suck it and see' basis. But the manner in which scientific endeavour is written-up tends to give the impression that the guys knew beforehand what their findings would be. But that style of information presentation can be very misleading.
LJ


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

username00101 said:


> Have you ever eaten spinach or almonds before? You're eating the same amount of the same exact chemical that I ingested.
> 
> If you didn't read my original post, I clearly stated that I don't treat with honey supers present unless it's unavoidable.
> 
> ...


Username
you may have offered yourself as a target here.
Just saying.
Just keep the hives in records that needed the "treatment" supered, can also use that honey for winter stores.

GG


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Check out Last Year's Thread for reference:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?356975-OA-vaporization-is-probably-safe-with-honey-supers-here-s-my-calculations


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

I guess the biggest problem with this thread is the statement in the title "I don't bother removing honey supers any longer." 

For personal consumption (as the OP claims), have at it. 

Selling, just don't. Purchasers are assumng (if they know or care) that we don't, and deserve that assumption to be true.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Is there any way to adjust the title of the thread to something like: Not necessary to remove for personal consumption so there's less hysterics?


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

clyderoad said:


> I was scratching my head too, and then it came to me - Darwin Awards.


:lpf::thumbsup:


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

username00101 said:


> Is there any way to adjust the title of the thread to something like: Not necessary to remove for personal consumption so there's less hysterics?


Not seeing any hysterics here. You posted a provacative post, and those who are participating are generally disagreeing with you. 

It sucks to be on the unpopular side, but that is the nature of a free and open conversation. Would you want it any other way?


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

This subject is too controversial for my taste. I almost feel guilty eating my OA honey mixed with a bowl of almond spinach salad, and a side of rhubarb pie.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Stirring the pot 00101? Ever check the half-life of OA and the difficulties quantifying it in honey? Formic acid?


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Here's what I found about* Formic Acid:*


_Formic acid is readily metabolized and eliminated by the body. Nonetheless, it has specific toxic effects; the formic acid and formaldehyde produced as metabolites of methanol are responsible for the optic nerve damage, causing blindness, seen in methanol poisoning.[47] Some chronic effects of formic acid exposure have been documented. Some experiments on bacterial species have demonstrated it to be a mutagen.[48] Chronic exposure in humans may cause kidney damage.[48] Another possible effect of chronic exposure is development of a skin allergy that manifests upon re-exposure to the chemical._

_ Of 16 persons
who swallowed 45 to 200 g formic acid, 9 died as a result of perforation in the gastrointestinal tract and 5 of acute kidney failure (BUA 1991)._

Reference: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi...rption, formic acid is,was given as 2.5 hours.


*Oxalic acid:*

_In humans, ingested oxalic acid has an oral LDLo (lowest published lethal dose) of 600 mg/kg.[46] It has been reported that the lethal oral dose is 15 to 30 grams.[47]

Oxalate may enter cells where it is known to cause mitochondrial dysfunction.[48]

The toxicity of oxalic acid is due to kidney failure caused by precipitation of solid calcium oxalate,[49] the main component of calcium kidney stones. Oxalic acid can also cause joint pain by formation of similar precipitates in the joints. Ingestion of ethylene glycol results in oxalic acid as a metabolite which can also cause acute kidney failure._

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid
------------------------------

For oxalic acid, the formation of kidney stones require a daily dose upwards of 200mg/day or so, which if far in excess of anything we could encounter in the apiary. Moreover, this must be a chronic intake, happening over periods of weeks to months.

---------------------

Based on the general logic of contaminants in honey. Seems to me that neither Formic nor Oxalic acid should be used with honey supers present, if one wishes to avoid contaminating honey for customers.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> This subject is too controversial for my taste. I almost feel guilty eating my OA honey mixed with a bowl of almond spinach salad, and a side of rhubarb pie.


OK, think of sugar.
Most anyone will tell now days - refined sugar is "white death", especially if abused, which is common.
Now that same unrefined sugar as a part of fruit and vegetable is a different story.
This is because the natural sugars come within a complex of other intake materials and nutrition.

So why keep equating 1/8 spoon of white, refined powder to a bowl of spinach?
These things are not equal, even though trivializing this equality is easy enough.

Unrefined, natural foods <> *sum *of their *known *ingredients.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

To Greg's point
Spinach contains about .97g/100g OA, But it also has 0.90g of calcium
The OA binds with the calcium in to calcium oxalate, witch is insoluble so most of it passes threw the digestive track. 

That gritty feeling you get on your teeth from fresh spinach or rhubarb is the calcium oxalate precipitating out of solution and sticking to your teeth.


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## JimD (Feb 3, 2018)

I do not get around to treating my bees a couple of times a year now if it would just kill the blank SHB's.

There is a BIG difference in breathing OA vs eating a little. 


To make this a relative discussion I think that you need to look at the dosage and the number of times that you vap OA a year to get an estimate of just how much OA settles in the hives and on the comb. 

Then you need to look if the honey comb is sealed or open and the total area that the OA can settle on inside the hive. Do the crystals settle same rate horizontally as vertically. Are the crystals more prone to stick to the wood or the wax or open cells. How about into the open cells in the deeps if not capped with brood?

If open there there is a chance to get some OA in the honey if sealed you cut the cap off and there is a good chance you do not get 
much of the capped OA residue into the honey.

So the bottom line is just how much OA actually gets into the honey? There is a lot of variables. 



JW- Know what you mean with the farm North of Austin I use the Colorado river for my water and use the filter then, chlorine pellets, a mixer then dechlorination filter, then I use a UV light system. 

Jim


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> To Greg's point
> Spinach contains about .97g/100g OA, But it also has 0.90g of calcium
> The OA binds with the calcium in to calcium oxalate, witch is insoluble so most of it passes threw the digestive track.
> 
> That gritty feeling you get on your teeth from fresh spinach or rhubarb is the calcium oxalate precipitating out of solution and sticking to your teeth.


Yep.
Exactly.

Here is a good read:


> the relationship between oxalate in our diets, the oxalate in our bodies, and the formation of oxalate stones is far from linear.


https://www.thepaleomom.com/oxalate-sensitivity-real/


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Robert


> Stirring the pot 00101? Ever check the half-life of OA and the difficulties quantifying it in honey? Formic acid?


There are actually a few studies out there in internet land that have been brought up in previous threads. Randy oliver is doing one now also. OA is not fat salable and does not stay in wax and most studies so far have shown that honey in treated hives does not test higher than what is naturally occurring in honey untreated. This topic has been discussed many times. The science and the law and whether they are the same has been part of those previous threads as well. 
Cheers 
gww

Ps, I do remember reading (I think on Wikipedia) that eating 11 lbs of rhubarb might kill you.


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## cfalls (Nov 26, 2017)

For strictly personal use, I'd be comfortable with formic, oxalic, or thymol with supers on. A dose of any of those chemicals large enough to be harmful would taste so bad that it would be a real challenge to swallow it. If you have taste buds you don't need to do any calculations or speculations to determine if you're below the safety threshold. 

(Breathing them or getting them in your eye is another story, but taking supers off doesn't really help with that.)

That being said, I've only actually used formic when supers are on, which is approved. That plus a spring and fall treatment with Apivar has been working for me so I don't feel like buying a vaporizer or learning how to use other treatments.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Robert Holcombe said:


> Stirring the pot 00101? Ever check the half-life of OA and the difficulties quantifying it in honey? Formic acid?


Just another troll, and it got the reaction the troll was looking for.

Please folks, stop feeding the trolls. Site has gone downhill tremendously over the last few years, if you feed the trolls it'll become useless.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

grozzie2 said:


> Just another troll, and it got the reaction the troll was looking for.
> 
> Please folks, stop feeding the trolls. Site has gone downhill tremendously over the last few years, if you feed the trolls it'll become useless.


character attacks are fairy common when people feel threatened, insulted, or offended by things they don't like.

I was not anticipating a reaction. I was sharing my anecdote, with a prov-active title which wasn't the best. The community clearly disapproves of my actions. 

It's OK, I already asked for the thread to be taken down because this community doesn't appreciate the post.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It doesn't appear that you are getting much support for your public position: not the first time you have made a run at it. You are correct about the aggregate opinion of the community.:digging::digging:


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

not to put fuel on a fire.....

the "community" at one time thought the world was flat.
at one time the community burned witches at the stake.

another phrase for "community" is mob rule, pure democracy, etc.

00101, take an informed approach and do not worry about the community, the community in places are looting and burning, the community in not always correct.

thank you for sharing your experience.

GG


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## cfalls (Nov 26, 2017)

I think the thread has been interesting, and can understand the different perspectives here. I don't think anyone's trolling.

To be clear, I don't think folks should be using unapproved treatments on honey for sale. That's not a decision for you to make for other people. And I totally understand that some people don't find the risk acceptable even for personal use. That is not a crazy position at all.

I also don't think it's any kind of EPA conspiracy. They're a bunch of reasonable and fairly smart people doing their job. If anything the problem is that (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong on this) a company gets monopolistic privileges to sell a chemical like amitraz once they push it through the bureaucracy, but anyone can sell oxalic so companies have no incentive to try to expand its legal applicability. I don't understand the laws well, but it seems like that does affect the incentives. That's why you see non-profits like Randy Oliver pushing on improved oxalic treatments.

I do think it's an interesting question how concerned we should be about ingesting these "natural" treatments. At present I'm on the more unconcerned side, but I can imagine information being presented in this thread or elsewhere that will change my mind.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

cfalls said:


> I think the thread has been interesting, and can understand the different perspectives here. I don't think anyone's trolling.
> 
> To be clear, I don't think folks should be using unapproved treatments on honey for sale. That's not a decision for you to make for other people. And I totally understand that some people don't find the risk acceptable even for personal use. That is not a crazy position at all.
> 
> ...


good response cfalls, having the ability to make our own decisions is still part of the American way.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> not to put fuel on a fire.....
> 
> the "community" at one time thought the world was flat.
> at one time the community burned witches at the stake.
> ...


+1

Until doing direct and proved harm to others, I would not worry about the "community" indeed.
The original proposal was just an opinion; a view point, not a community threat by far.
Heck, I get kicked routinely for my opinions too for just the opposite ways.

Being a kid, I also routinely sucked on the butts of red forest ants, cause it was a cool thing to do.
They are very acidic, those ant butts; it kinda burns your tung a little too; but it is also pleasantly tart taste.
Or you can lick a grass stem, then rile up the ants with it, then lick the stem again - it is tart with the formic acid.
These are the true facts.


Meanwhile:


> Public Executions were a party day for medieval folks. Bunring at the stake was bad enough, but it was an occasion for apprentices to take time off, merchants to shut their shops, and fast food sellers to hawk their goods. Burning was very popular. ............
> In this picture, note the young men sitting with their legs dangling — enjoying the show. Often authorities ordered platforms built so everyone could see the show. It’s a wonder someone didn’t think to sell tickets......


So this is a good example of the community thing, taken from:
https://www.quora.com/What-was-socially-acceptable-in-Medieval-times-but-would-be-horrifying-today


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

I know OA seems new to most. But from what I understand it has been used in Asia and Europe since the late 70s and early 80s as a mite treatment. Since it has been in use for about 40 years in other countries does anyone know if beekeepers and their customers in other countries are recording deaths from OA?


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

When bees store honey or sugar syrup in the brood nest, don't they, at other times move it up into supers to make room to lay? Not trying to stir anything, just thought I had read/heard this at one point causing me to wonder the benefit of taking off the supers and putting them back on later.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

MJC417 said:


> I know OA seems new to most. But from what I understand it has been used in Asia and Europe since the late 70s and early 80s as a mite treatment. Since it has been in use for about 40 years in other countries does anyone know if beekeepers and their customers in other countries are recording deaths from OA?


6.3. Legalisation of the use of oxalic acid as a drug in bees

Research on oxalic acid has been conducted for beekeepers, but its use as a drug in honey
bee colonies is strongly regulated by legislation. Without formal approval the treatment remains illegal.

In all EU countries, government approval is only given to a new veterinary drug after the European Union’s Agency for Evaluating Medical Products (EMEA) has determined the maximum residue limit (MRL) of the active ingredient allowed in the final food product according to Council Regulation (EEC) 2377/ 90 (Mutinelli and Rademacher, 2002). This procedure is intended to protect consumers from dangerous residues in food resulting from medicines used on animals. Conducted as a common European project by scientific institutes and beekeeper organisations from most European countries, oxalic acid was listed in Annex II of Council Regulation (EEC) 2377/90 in December 2003 (Rademacher and Imdorf, 2004). *This means that the substance is declared not dangerous and that no residue limit is needed to protect the consumer.* On this basis every European country can apply for legal approval of oxalic acid as a drug in bee colonies.


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## BenjaminM (Mar 10, 2020)

So this is interesting.

The LD50 of oxalic acid looks to be 1080 mg/kg.

At 230 pounds, 104 kg, I would have to consume 112 grams, basically a quarter pound to reach the LD50.

Now consider applying 1g of oxalic acid vapor to a 10 frame deep with a 10 frame honey super. At roughly 9" x 17" per deep frame, and 6" x 17" per medium, and two sides per frame, I am coming up with 3060 in2, and 2040 in2. If there were no bees in the hive, 40% of the 1 g would end up across the honey super.

If there is 50 pounds of honey in the medium, now contaminated with 0.4g of oxalic acid.

This is ignoring the surface area of the bees. I google indicates the area of a bee to be 3 cm2, and across 50,000 bees, that would be 23,250 in2. So now you are less than 0.07 g across the 50 pounds of honey in the medium.

I'd make the argument that removing the honey super and reinstalling it, immediately following the treatment has the same effect of never removing it at all.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

myrdale said:


> So this is interesting.
> 
> The LD50 of oxalic acid looks to be 1080 mg/kg.


That comes from here: https://www.fishersci.com/store/msd...15888&keyword=true&countryCode=US&language=en

That number you quote is for toxicity to rats, who have a much higher tolerance of many things than humans do. You may want to read more from the same company that quotes that number.

https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/17361.htm
From the piece that matters.
=============
Ingestion: Causes gastrointestinal tract burns. Oxalic acid is toxic because of its acidic and chelating properties. It is especially toxic when ingested. As little as 5 grams (71 mg/kg) may be fatal. Ulcerations of the mouth, vomiting of blood, and rapid appearance of shock, convulsions, twitching, tetany, and cardiovascular collapse may occur following ingestion of oxalic acid or its soluble salts. Oxalic acid can bind calcium to form calcium oxalate which is insoluble at physiological pH. Calcium oxalate thus formed might precipitate in the kidney tubules and the brain. Hypocalcemia secondary to calcium oxalate formation might disturb the function of the heart and nerves. 
=============

As little as 5g can be a fatal dose for an average person. Read farther, longer term sub lethal effects include sterility in males, birth defects for women carrying a baby. 

So feel free, go eat your 100g helping then report back on how that went....


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## cfalls (Nov 26, 2017)

Grozzie, thanks for the info. 

I think you meant 5g can be lethal, not 5mg?

Also I think username5 said they ate a little under 1g, not 100g. 

Still, a fifth of the "can be" lethal dose is a hell of a lot more than I'd eat! Gross.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Based on "This means that the substance is declared not dangerous and that no residue limit is needed to protect the consumer. On this basis every European country can apply for legal approval of oxalic acid as a drug in bee colonies.", why did Canada require the removal of supers when treating with OA while allowing formic acid with a longer half life? Then the USA's EPA copied the requirements. 

I believe the EU has a honey acceptance test procedure with a total acidity requirement. Do we need a community effort providing finances ( bee clubs?) or a mob of beekeepers to effect change? Personally I think it was a good CYA solution to copy Canada due to a lack of financial support to get the OA miticide approved. I can live with the requirement........for now.

Now the real issue - horizontal Varroa spreading and dealing with it in a timely manner? And why do tax payer funded regulations require direct funding to get EPA approval? A corporate/business ploy?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

What would be the best strategy in attempt to get changes to the EPA's Oxalic Acid application procedures?

What strategies would create negatives for the image of honey as a pure and healthy product? We certainly see a lot of shade being cast on import honeys. We dont want to shoot ourselves in the foot. Damage to the perceived image of honey was the reason I spoke about encouraging public flaunting of the present regulations. It is hard to put a price on "Image"

I pushed the hot button of "Freedom of Speech". People have a range of sanctity they place on that and other hot button issues. I think though that almost everyone would agree that there are times when it would suite our agenda better to use discretion with their hot button response.

I have been using oxalic acid since long before it was approved in Canada. Bee inspectors would come and visit and were interested in its application and doing mite tests. There is similar interest in its use with glycerine on contact sheets that do not require vaporization. Argentina was ground breaking in developing a registered product. New Zealand beekeepers are doing a lot of work along this line but I have the feeling that they are very conscious about the value of public perception. They are not openly brazen with efforts to force regulatory change.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

cfalls said:


> Grozzie, thanks for the info.
> 
> I think you meant 5g can be lethal, not 5mg?
> 
> ...


Yah the 5mg was a typo, should have been 5g, fixed. But if you scroll back to the post I quoted, it suggests 100g for an LD50 dose, but the poster apparently doesn't understand the difference between people and lab rats.

As for those going on about MRL, you need to look into that subject a little more. The lack of a listed MRL in Europe does not mean any old amount is acceptable, it means the acceptable amount is zero. This has been a big problem for the CHC over the last few years as they have been trying to get some products listed with an MRL so a lot of honey currently sitting in barrels on the prairies can ship to Europe.

Anyways, it doesn't really make a difference. Incendiary posts starting out with 'not to pour gas on the fire' then a bunch of stuff taken totally out of context designed specifically to 'pour gas on the fire' and make a thinly veiled political point show that there is really no point trying to continue this conversation.


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

Honey supers don't need to be removed if you're using the shop towel method. The towel goes between #1 and #2 brood boxes. For vaporizing I put a thin board between the upper brood box and honey box. Problem solved. Don't know what it's called, a large sheet, brown on 1 side and white on the other, cut a little larger than the dimensions of a hive box. We used to take off the honey supers. What a problem.


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## LizardKing (Feb 12, 2014)

Steve in PA said:


> Let us know how you enjoy your kidney stones. I don't think OA will kill you quickly in the amount you would get from honey. I do think you will build up Oxalate Crystals in your kidneys. That is only my opinion and why I would not do it wit


They'll LOVE kidney stones!
It is an unforgettable experience.
All it takes is one little stone to teach one about the joys of pain.


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## 123989 (Jul 30, 2018)

This thread is a good example of why I don't visit this site that often. He explained he didn't recommend it other than personal consumption and yet just about everybody piled on him. I am canceling my notifications for this board. 
I have had enough of all the EXPERT opinions dished out by people on here. If I want any advice it will not be from anyone on a bee forum with the exception of Michael Bush.
The original poster explained himself very well , so get off his back. Go back to your own little worlds where you know it all. SMH


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## bwilson (Sep 7, 2019)

Ok, so I ran an experiment. I laid out a 10mg line of oxalic acid, rolled up a $100 dollar bill, and took it to the dome. I feel fine guys, really. No side effects what so ever.

Kidding!

Seriously though, no one is talking about the real issue at hand here. Username has a pair of balls on him that no man can compete with. This guy literally saw a pure organic acid, read a label that said "DONT, ITS HAZARDOUS", then proceeded to eat it. Against the advice of the government, he set out to decide for himself weather or not it would hurt. He didn't just bend over and take whatever crap the government wanted to fill his colon with. This man is the *ONLY* scientist I have seen on this thread. How many of you people got a pair big enough to eat a spoonful of oxalic acid? NONE! His science may be crude, but it is science none the less and I commend him for his efforts!

Thank you, sir.


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

Here is an article on Scientific Beekeeping.com about oxalic acid and honey. 12 grams/shop towel seems like a lot of oxalic.
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/


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## Planethill (Jun 8, 2015)

This thread is a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. 

It is why people on Facebook will argue to the bitter end about topics they have zero training in. Economics, Climate Science, Medical Science, etc. 

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Planethill said:


> This thread is a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
> 
> It is why people on Facebook will argue to the bitter end about topics they have zero training in. Economics, Climate Science, Medical Science, etc.
> 
> ...


The negative comments arguing for the dangerous nature of OAV w/honey supers present is a good example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. 

I've yet to read any convincing information indicating that OAV injections could possibly contaminate honey to a level that would be remotely dangerous, or even detectable.

As previous posters have pointed out. The surface area of the bees, comb etc, may result in virtually no OA actually entering into the honey.

OAV cannot enter capped honey.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/091266-00001-20151013.pdf

It appears possible to file a petition to this ruling.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Here's something even more interesting, from the EPA:

_Assessment of Risk to Human Health
The use pattern for this compound is in beehives when honey supers are not present. Dietary exposure from the proposed use as an in-hive application will be indistinguishable from naturally occurring levels of oxalic acid. In fact, oxalic acid is a natural constituent of honey and is commonly found in the range of 1 mg/kg to 800 mg/kg. Moreover, EPA has established an exemption from the food tolerance requirement for oxalic acid under 40 CFR 180.910. Oxalic acid is ubiquitous in the environment and exposures from use in honeybee hives will be minimal, therefore the contribution to aggregate risk from this use will be insignificant relative to the total exposure from other sources._

Reference:
https://www.dadant.com/epa-okays-oxalic-acid-for-varroa-mite-control/

*800mg/Kg of OA naturally occurring in honey!*

Here's another interesting quote: 

_...applied to growing crops and to raw agricultural commodities after harvest.... Oxalic acid may be used in pesticide formulations up to 2 lbs per acre ( 40 CFR § 180.910). In assessing this use, EPA determined that there is a reasonable certainty that no harm to any population subgroup would result from aggregate exposure to oxalic acid. By contrast, the maximum application for oxalic acid in honeybee hives is 50 mL of 2.8% oxalic acid sugar solution which is far lower than 2 lbs of 98-1 00% oxalic acid per acre._


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

JWPalmer said:


> Too funny. I wonder if people on municipal water systems know that bleach is used to chlorinate their drinking water? I even treat my well once a year by pouring a quart of bleach into the well. Of course I have a supply of drinking water set aside as it takes a day or two for the water to become safe again.


I live in the mountains and the geologist said our well water is about 1000 years old. The water is deliciously pure. The water coming from the ground and main storage tanks are tested twice a year. I have a supplemental storage tank that I use for watering plants that has also been used if there is a problem with the main well. When I fill it up I add 1 cup of bleach to the 5000 gallon storage tank.


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## Billb (Oct 25, 2014)

I get the digest version, so I'm just now seeing this. For those who use OAV, how long do you leave the supers off after treatment? It seems if you treat in 4-5 day intervals, say 3X, and leave the supers off for 2 weeks, that is a whole month or more off the hive. It has been suggested that 3-4 days is probably sufficient.


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## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

bwilson said:


> Ok, so I ran an experiment. I laid out a 10mg line of oxalic acid, rolled up a $100 dollar bill, and took it to the dome. I feel fine guys, really. No side effects what so ever.
> 
> Kidding!
> 
> ...


It's so sad that so many people don't know what a scientist is or understand the scientific method.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Billb said:


> I get the digest version, so I'm just now seeing this. For those who use OAV, how long do you leave the supers off after treatment? It seems if you treat in 4-5 day intervals, say 3X, and leave the supers off for 2 weeks, that is a whole month or more off the hive. It has been suggested that 3-4 days is probably sufficient.


You're in the wrong thread.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

username00101 said:


> You're in the wrong thread.


Yeah, Like none of us ever done that before.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2018)

First, the legal, i.e. per label, use of OA is with the honey supers off. Period. Honey has a reputation of being wholesome and healthy. It is an image that helps with marketing and prices. Please follow the label.

That said, there is ample, real evidence, not just someone eating it, that shows there is no harm in leaving supers on while doing an OA treatment [1]. The right way to proceed is to get the label changed. In order to do this the USDA - ARS needs to submit a request to the EPA. 

The best course of action would be firm but polite letters to USDA requesting the USDA-ARS submit a request to allow use of OA with the honey supers on. Requests should be sent to Dr. Jay Evans <[email protected]>. Get your local bee organization involved with requests.

Example:
_Dear Dr. Evans,

There exists sufficient evidence that Oxalic Acid does not adversely affect the honey in hives when treatments are done with honey supers on. Please submit a request to the EPA to upgrade the label to allow use of OA treatments during a honey flow.

Thank you
_

[1] For example https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00217-003-0698-z or https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/04/Bogdanov/Bogdanov.html


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

"The best course of action " - Great Suggestion! I shall bring it up the next time the club meets.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

[email protected] "Oxalic Acid does not adversely affect the honey in hives when treatments are done with honey supers on." 

I only read the abstracts but did notice the honey was checked on Fall applications and honey verify the following year. The articles do not seem to support treatment during "supers on" and extracting shortly thereafter, let's say a month later. Is there clear support for OA 1/2 life affects and test results on honey versus elapsed time? We are talking about relatively short time periods.


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## jimbo3 (Jun 7, 2015)

fadder said:


> This thread is a good example of why I don't visit this site that often. He explained he didn't recommend it other than personal consumption and yet just about everybody piled on him. I am canceling my notifications for this board.
> I have had enough of all the EXPERT opinions dished out by people on here. If I want any advice it will not be from anyone on a bee forum with the exception of Michael Bush.
> The original poster explained himself very well , so get off his back. Go back to your own little worlds where you know it all. SMH


And thank you for your valuable input. I'm sure you will be missed.


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## jimbo3 (Jun 7, 2015)

"I live in the mountains and the geologist said our well water is about 1000 years old."

Isn't water a lot older than 1000 years?


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

Robert Holcombe said:


> - Great Suggestion!


Maybe this is better:

https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...or-mites-opinion-thread&p=1821263#post1821263



> High mite colonies in the landscape represent a threat to nearby colonies, and cooperative Varroa management is likely to mediate colony losses resulting from Varroa. This dissertation supports the critical need for proactive, cooperative Varroa management to improve colony health and reduce mortality.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

Robert Holcombe said:


> Is there clear support for OA 1/2 life affects and test results on honey versus elapsed time? We are talking about relatively short time periods.


Here:







Only 6 colonies and 1 application 1g of OA.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jimbo3 said:


> "I live in the mountains and the geologist said our well water is about 1000 years old."
> 
> Isn't water a lot older than 1000 years?


Water as a chemical molecule is as old as the universe itself.

Water sample spoken about is from some underground reservoir - it is recycling over time down there (takes ~1000 years in this example).
This is what the "1000 years old water" means.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

GregV

Tongue in cheek.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Is there clear support for OA 1/2 life affects and test results on honey versus elapsed time? We are talking about relatively short time periods.:











as you can see the trend is a single fall/winter TX dosen't inpact the honey, but a spring one does 
witch makes sense when we see in the line graft it takes 22 days for OA to stop contaminating incoming nectar


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

> Formic acid and oxalic acid field trials for control of Varroa destructor were carried out in autumn according to the Swiss prescriptions during three successive years in different apiaries in Switzerland. The following parameters were determined in honey that was harvested the year after treatment: formic acid, oxalic acid and free acidity. The following range of values were found in honeys of untreated colonies: formic acid, from 17 to 284 mg/kg, n = 34; oxalic acid, from 11 to 119 mg/kg, n = 33. There was a small, but unproblematic increase in formic acid levels in comparison to the levels in the controls; average: 46 mg/kg, maximum: 139 mg/kg. No increase in formic acid was found with increasing number of treatment years. If emergency formic acid treatments were carried out in spring, the residue levels were much higher: average increase of 193 mg/kg, maximum 417 mg/kg. The oxalic acid content remained unchanged, even after two successive treatments during the same autumn. No rise of free acidity was encountered after a combined treatment with formic and oxalic acid during the three trial years.


This speaks for itself. As I had previously surmised, Formic acid is, in fact, contaminating to honey. Formic acid treatments also appear to last for some time in the colonies, and can reach unnatural levels. It's actually possible to test your honey and find "too much" formic acid from a contaminating treatment of MAQS or Formic pro.

On the other hand, Scientists were not able to measure Oxalic acid levels increasing beyond the normal levels in honey.

The EPA acknowledges that OA is naturally occurring in honey, but restricts its use. Yet hypocritically doesn't restrict the use of Formic acid.

Meanwhile, here's a direct quote from a published paper:

_The range of oxalic acid content in honey was 5–68 mg/kg in oxalic acid treated and 5–65 mg/kg in untreated colonies._

References:

1. https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/04/Bogdanov/Bogdanov.html

2. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00217-003-0698-z


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Playing the devil's advocate role to achieve accuracy : 
"The following parameters were determined in honey that was harvested the year after treatment: formic acid, oxalic acid and free acidity. The following range of values were found in honeys of untreated colonies: formic acid, "

"It speaks for itself", yes and supports the EPA's decision using the Canadian's approval efforts. So where is the test data for " treatment has no effect on honey after XY days". Where is the testing standard for honey in the USA? The EPA's decision speaks for itself - it is a system that works which is needed and one that can be verified by test. Note that there was no specified elapsed time but a general description of elapsed time in the article. How is elapsed time controlled in the USA? EPA label is mute.

"Scientists were not able to measure Oxalic acid levels increasing beyond the normal levels in honey." My memory tells me you are flat out wrong about OA testing. A unique test was developed to unmask the OA content and it time based as result of OA's short half-life. Formic acid apparently swamps the OA data using typical test methods. Of course this is memory speaking as my reference source is buried somewhere in computer's memory. 

"The EPA acknowledges that OA is naturally occurring in honey, but restricts its use. Yet hypocritically doesn't restrict the use of Formic acid." So how did they get approval? Did they submit test data, used prior data? Going along the same line what is the Varroa efficacy of formic Quick Strips on capped Varroa? I was unable to find the source of the "no OA treatments with supers on" - it just showed up. Connection to the NGO Canadian Honey Board? 

Finally, with the OAV cannons used as vaporization tools today, do you think some beekeepers might over-do it? Apply an overdose that could show up in the "tasting" of honey? Hurt someone?

I begrudgingly stick with the EPA label...... until an improved method with supporting data is provided. I am guessing it would also vary or contain methods for various climate zones. I do not use Formic acid as I consider the risk to high. My IPM program using OAV works for me. Could we also have as standard for naturally fermented honey which I like and others also? A nice acidic taste.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Robert,

The EPA has written that the naturally occurring levels of OA in honey range to as high as 800mg/kg.

Basically speaking, that EPA statement means that it's "not easy" to actually test for OA in honey, as it's naturally occurring, in levels 10X-100X more than we could possibly introduce from OAV. 

So if someone were to claim that a beekeeper contaminated their honey and demanded a test, it'd literally be "not easy" to prove OA contamination.

The short half life means that by the time the sample got to the lab, it'd be mostly gone already, and then the test would clearly indicate that OA levels do not exceed natural levels.

---

I disagree that this system works - it's clearly biased towards Formic acid, and the other expensive treatments versus the affordable oxalic acid.

For formic acid, I'm sure there was a great deal of company/sponsored funding that helped push that decision through the EPA. Formic pro nets beekeeping supply companies millions of $ per year, and oxalic acid makes them very little. 

Do I think a beekeeper would "over do it"? Yes, and beekeepers can over-do it now, with pesticides and antibiotics, etc. Beekeepers can over-do it with Formic pro and MAQS in the spring, and "lawfully" contaminate their honey that they sell to customers.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

viesest - I agree! But it is nearly impossible to get a cooperative honey bee group in the USA. With the numerous and various unregulated factions in various climates it make it very difficult - even to wear mask! I have seen statistical data collection have an effect on beekeepers' management plans.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> The EPA acknowledges that OA is naturally occurring in honey, but restricts its use. Yet hypocritically doesn't restrict the use of Formic acid.


not in the least

The simple answer is NOD payed for the studys and and paper work so that thier product could be aproved to be used supers on, and beekeepers payed them for thier product

the lable holders for OA haven't, as there is no ROI for them to do so.. the majority beekeepers won't buy their product regardless. 

its not the EPA, its beekeepers not being willing to pay for it that has stopped the progress.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

Robert Holcombe said:


> viesest - I agree! But it is nearly impossible to get a cooperative honey bee group in the USA.


Not much coordination is needed. If research gives good results the extensive treatment in fall and winter would be norm. (in cold climate zones)
We had synchronized treatments, but in summer that was useless.


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