# Biological beekeeping and Drone comb



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

I am curious about how many biological beekeepers allow their bees to raise all the drones they want, how many limit and control drone comb and drone production, how many largely prevent drones from being raised by using worker foundation only or culling drone comb from foundationless frames, and how many use drone trapping as a technique for varroa control.

-fafrd

p.s. I'm trying to post this as a poll but it is my first time and I am not sure it is going to work. If there is no poll associated with the original popst, woudl appreciate someone explaining how to do it...


----------



## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

I subscribe to the philosophy that the bees know best, so I let them build what ever they want. I normally have them drawing new comb in the spring and I keep it in the middle of the broodnest as best as I can, so I normally end up with the "worker" comb to raise the girls, how ever if they do draw a drone comb I move it over to the side, it's there if the bees need it for drones, if not they store honey in it.


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

In hives with an unlimited broodnest, I try to move droney combs to the outer frames, with good worker combs in the core of the broodnest.

In single deeps with an excluder, I try to have all good worker combs.

I do not use drone trapping.


----------



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> In hives with an unlimited broodnest, I try to move droney combs to the outer frames, with good worker combs in the core of the broodnest.


Countryboy,

thanks for the reply. Does 'unlimited broodnest' mean a standard hive with two or three deeps full of brood (vertical) or a double horizontal hive?

Are your frames founationless into which they have drawn drone or are they worker foundation frames onto which they have forced drone cells?

In moving the 'droney' frames to the outside positions, do you limit the number or is it typically only one or two droney combs per side? On all deeps?

I am trying to get a sense of how much drone comb you typically have in one of your unlimited broodnest hives.




Countryboy said:


> In single deeps with an excluder, I try to have all good worker combs


Since you manage both configurations (unlimited and limited w/o drone brood) I am interested if you see any difference between these two configurations in terms of Varroa infesation. Varroa are supposed to increase much more rapidly in drone brood than in worker brood - do you see any evidence of this?




Countryboy said:


> I do not use drone trapping.


And can I assume from the rest of your response that you allow all the drones to be raised that your bees want (in the 'unlimited' hives)? Do you take any actions to limit/treat mites in these hives? Any sense of what level of mites your hives have (do you monitor)?

The background to all of my questions is that I tried a combination of small cell foundation (Mann-Lake PF...) and foundationless last season and lost two hives to PMS (know a great deal more now than I did then - actually still trying to save the second hive). My hives raised a great deal of drones (4 frames out of 20 100% drone brood) and I did nothing to control them. These were both first-year hives (started from small swarms late the previous fall) and so the only reason I can think of that the mites became such a problem so quickly was all of that uncontrolled drone brood.

I am trying to decide what my strategy is going to be this season and the options I am considering include the following:

1/ worker comb only (small cell foundation and culled foundationless comb) [this would be similar to your single-deep worker-only hives]

2/ unlimited broodnest with drone trapping to monitor varroa infestastion - sample the larvae and only allow the drones to emerge if the infestation level is very low (<0.5% - no Varroa spotted in 100 or 200 drone cells sampled)

3/ monitor mite levels through bottom board and only manage / cull drone brood that was capped when varroa were above a threshold of 0.5%

4/ try again with a completely 'hands-off' approach but monitor varroa levels through the bottom board and any time it is clear that a hive is on it's way toward PMS, remove queen and brood, treat phoretic mites with powdered sugar dusting, and introduce a new strain through a new queen

I have 5 hives and will likely try more than one of these approaches in parallel to learn what works best, but I appreciate the chance to learn from the experience of others such as yourself so I d not waste my time on an approach that has clear drawbacks.

Thanks again for your input,

-fafrd


----------



## cow pollinater (Dec 5, 2007)

I quit worrying about drone brood. In my humble opinion romoving it or reducing it just favors the mites that do breed in worker cells. It is better to let the bees crash from varroa in the drone brood than to breed a more destructive mite that prefers worker brood.


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Does 'unlimited broodnest' mean a standard hive with two or three deeps full of brood (vertical) or a double horizontal hive?_

Neither. An 'unlimited broodnest' is the opposite of a restricted broodnest. Using a queen excluder is a way to restrict the broodnest. Not using an excluder and allowing the queen free reign of the hive is an unlimited (or open) broodnest.

_Are your frames founationless into which they have drawn drone or are they worker foundation frames onto which they have forced drone cells?_

I very seldom have ever seen a comb with worker foundation where bees have forced drone cells. If a comb is damaged, such as a mouse chewing a hole in it, bees may fill the hole with drone comb. Normally if you have worker foundation, the bees draw worker cells, and will make drone cells in the gap between boxes.

My droney combs are foundationless combs with more large cells than I prefer in the core of the broodnest.

_In moving the 'droney' frames to the outside positions, do you limit the number or is it typically only one or two droney combs per side? On all deeps?
_

I go through my brood box and move the combs with the most drone comb outwards. I may even pull a droney comb and put a new foundationless frame or sc foundation in the core of the broodnest.

_I am trying to get a sense of how much drone comb you typically have in one of your unlimited broodnest hives._

I end up with 'about that much' drone comb in my boxes. In an unlimited broodnest, the bees determine how much drone comb there is, not the beekeeper.

_I am interested if you see any difference between these two configurations in terms of Varroa infesation. Varroa are supposed to increase much more rapidly in drone brood than in worker brood - do you see any evidence of this?_

What does a varroa infestation look like?

_And can I assume from the rest of your response that you allow all the drones to be raised that your bees want (in the 'unlimited' hives)? Do you take any actions to limit/treat mites in these hives? Any sense of what level of mites your hives have (do you monitor)?_

Yes, in an unlimited broodnest, you allow the bees to raise all the drones they want.

Yes, our bee club President prays and asks God's blessing upon the bees at the beginning of our club meetings.

I sense some hives might have more mites than other hives. My monitoring is keeping an eye out for a lot of phoretic mites, mites in drone brood that may have been broken open...I even put sliding pans under a few screened bottom boards last year. I didn't see enough mites on the pans last year to justify the effort to continue doing it.

_I appreciate the chance to learn from the experience of others such as yourself so I d not waste my time on an approach that has clear drawbacks._

Please read my thread about an Interesting Pattern to Mid-Winter Losses.

_It is better to let the bees crash from varroa in the drone brood than to breed a more destructive mite that prefers worker brood. _

I have heard drones called the 'tonsils' of a hive...


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm

The term ULBN usually includes at least two concepts:

1) no excluder
2) more boxes over winter so there is more food in the spring and more expansion room. (typically at least one more box than typical, e.g. three deeps instead of two, four mediums instead of three etc.)


----------



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> What does a varroa infestation look like?
> 
> I sense some hives might have more mites than other hives. My monitoring is keeping an eye out for a lot of phoretic mites, mites in drone brood that may have been broken open...I even put sliding pans under a few screened bottom boards last year. I didn't see enough mites on the pans last year to justify the effort to continue doing it.


Thanks for your reply Countrtyboy.

By Varroa infestation I meant either seeing a different level of phoretic mites, seeing a different level of infested drone brood in whatever drone brood is inspected, or seeing a different level of phoretic mite infestation through sampling (either natural mite fall onto a bottomboard, as it sounds like you have done, or other sampling techniques including alcohol wash or powdered sugar dusting).

Can I take your response to mean that you see no specific differences in the way these two hive configurations (unlimited broodnest, single-deep-with-excluder) deal with Varroa infestation - the ones that survive appear to keep the Varroa at similar levels?

And when you say you _'didn't see enough mites on the pans to justify continuing to monitor'_, can you provide some idea of how may mites that was (approximate number of mites seen per day of natural mite fall collection) or what level of phoretic mite infestation it represented in %?



Countryboy said:


> It is better to let the bees crash from varroa in the drone brood than to breed a more destructive mite that prefers worker brood.


In general, I think I am in agreement with you, except in regards to collonies collapsing from severe PMS resulting in accelerated infestation of neighboring colonies. To identify the 'survivor stock' you need to give them a fair chance, and having a great number of infested bees entering their colony from a neighboring colony that is collapsing due to mites could cause an unfair advantage and could overwhelm a perfectly good strain of bees. For this reason, my plan is to monitor mite levels and if/when I determine that a colony is not successfully combatting Varroa and is doomed to fail, I plan to intervene before PMS gets too bad by removing the queen and brood, treating the remaining bees to greatly reduce the phoretic mites, and then introduce a new strain of genetics through a new queen.


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Can I take your response to mean that you see no specific differences in the way these two hive configurations (unlimited broodnest, single-deep-with-excluder) deal with Varroa infestation _

No, you can't.

I'm still not sure what the difference between a varroa infestation and some varroa being present in a hive.

_And when you say you 'didn't see enough mites on the pans to justify continuing to monitor', can you provide some idea of how may mites that was (approximate number of mites seen per day of natural mite fall collection) or what level of phoretic mite infestation it represented in %?_

You do not have the bees I have, nor do you have the mites I have, nor are you in my area - so you simply can't draw any comparisons. You have to understand this.

_and having a great number of infested bees entering their colony_

How many mites do you have to have on a bee before that bee is infested?

_from a neighboring colony that is collapsing due to mites could cause an unfair advantage and could overwhelm a perfectly good strain of bees._

Could? Says who? Did the bees and mites read that book or instruction manual?

Might, and might not will give you a more accurate understanding.

_my plan is to monitor mite levels and if/when I determine that a colony is not successfully combatting Varroa and is doomed to fail, I plan to intervene before PMS gets too bad by removing the queen and brood,_

Mike Palmer - Bees make better beekeepers than beekeepers make bees.

By the time you can determine if a hive is doomed to fail, it will likely be too late to intervene.

Try to learn to work with the bees, instead of trying to figure out how to make the bees do what you want.


----------



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> You do not have the bees I have, nor do you have the mites I have, nor are you in my area - so you simply can't draw any comparisons. You have to understand this.


I understand this and you do not need to repeat it. Data from successful treatment-free beekers is helpful to me as I learn. If you don't have any data or you don't want to share what data you do have with me, that is fine.



Countryboy said:


> By the time you can determine if a hive is doomed to fail, it will likely be too late to intervene.


That statement is defeatist and nonsense. My first hive collapsed from PMS (though I did not know that is what is was at the time - I thought I had a failing queen because I was not checking for Varroa). My second hive was following exactly the same spiral with severe PMS (DWV, spotty brood pattern, hundreds of mites falling natually in 24h) and I intervened and saved it. By using any of the various techniques to monitor mite infestaton levels and learning through trial and error what the 'danger zone' is (for _your_ bees in _your_ environment), you absolutely can learn to recognize when a hive is on its way towards failure and with plenty of time to intereve and help it achieve at different fate (at least the worker bees and drones, not necessarily the queen if you don't want to prop up weak genetics).



Countryboy said:


> Try to learn to work with the bees, instead of trying to figure out how to make the bees do what you want.


I would like to think that this is exactly what I _am_ doing. If wanting my bees to survive and thrive instead of being overwhelmed by Varroa and collapsing is making them do 'what I want' instead of what the bees want, then I suppose you and I have a significant philisophical difference. Otherwise, I'll assume that by 'working with the bees' you mean let them build whatever cells and raise whatever types of brood they want and do not interfere. Fine. This is what I want as well and what I tried last season. It did not work - my bees died (or were on their way to collapse) - so I am seeking inputs and data from treatment-free beekeepers to improve my chances (and the bees chances) of success this season.

Have you ever lost a hive to PMS?

-fafrd


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

You appear to be looking for certain definites even though you are dealing with uncertainties.

Here are the FIRST two things you need to accept BEFORE you go treatment free. If you stop using treatments:

1.) Accept that you are going to have losses. 
2.) Have a way to replace those losses.

_Data from successful treatment-free beekers is helpful to me as I learn. _

Data that is useful to you will be helpful to you. In your questions, it seems that you are asking for data that is useless to you.

_That statement is defeatist and nonsense. _

By the time you can determine if a hive is doomed to fail, it will likely be too late to intervene. Sticking your head in the sand will not change this. It will not repair the open wounds in bee bodies from mites, allowing other pathogens to weaken the bees, etc.

It's kind of like overdriving your headlights at night. By the time you realize you are overdriving them, it's too late to get stopped.

_you absolutely can learn to recognize when a hive is on its way towards failure and with plenty of time to intereve and help it achieve at different fate (at least the worker bees and drones, not necessarily the queen if you don't want to prop up weak genetics)._

So how do you propose to restore all the bees to health? You will have weak injured bees, which will not be able to raise brood as good as they should. That new round of brood will not be as healthy as they should be. It will take several rounds of brood raised with good nutrition to get the hive back healthy. Simply giving a collapsing hive a new queen is not sufficient to stop the collapse.

_If wanting my bees to survive and thrive instead of being overwhelmed by Varroa and collapsing is making them do 'what I want' instead of what the bees want,_

You appear to think that if you do certain monitoring techniques, or find magic numbers of mite loads, you will somehow be able to force your bees to survive. It's not a realistic expectation. Acceptable mite loads can vary over the course of the year. Some bees have a higher threshold for mites. Some mites seem weaker than others. There are simply too many intangibles.

_so I am seeking inputs and data from treatment-free beekeepers to improve my chances (and the bees chances) of success this season._

Expect to have losses.
Have a way to replace those losses.

That is the BEST data and input I can offer you. Using that input is what has helped me have the most success not treating for mites. 

You cannot save every hive. I would recommend having several hives. The ones that survive, keep doing what you did for them to the other hives when you replace those losses. 

_Have you ever lost a hive to PMS?_

I don't know. What does PMS look like? I know there are 'some' mites in my hives. I've had untreated hives die. I have untreated hives doing great also.


----------



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

With 28 submission in to the poll, the results are starting to get interesting.

About 60% of the treatment-free beekeepers who have replied allow their bees to do 'whatever they want' and do not control or manage drone brood in any way.

The other 40% do manage drone brood in some manner, from not having any drone comb in the hive and using only worker foundation (the smallest minority so far), to using drone traps, or simply controlling the amount of drone comb (and hence drone brood) in the hive.

I'm going to give the poll a bit more time for any stragglers and then may follow-on with some more specific polls to understand if there are regional differences, differences in comb (small cell and/or foundationless versus standard foundation), or other differences such as maximizing honey yield versus promoting natural genetics to account for this apparent split.

Any other thoughts for other additional questions to include in the next poll appreciated...

-fafrd


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

How do I know if I am a biological beekeeper or not? 
I use no treatments and little feed.
I read the Organic Yahoo group daily for five years.
I use mostly worker foundation and voted as such.
I have serious doubts about the benefits of small cell after five or more years of trying. 
I have serious doubts about foundationless after trying this year. 
I have no topbar or Warre hives.


----------



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> By the time you can determine if a hive is doomed to fail, it will likely be too late to intervene. Sticking your head in the sand will not change this. It will not repair the open wounds in bee bodies from mites, allowing other pathogens to weaken the bees, etc.
> 
> It's kind of like overdriving your headlights at night. By the time you realize you are overdriving them, it's too late to get stopped.
> 
> So how do you propose to restore all the bees to health? You will have weak injured bees, which will not be able to raise brood as good as they should. That new round of brood will not be as healthy as they should be. It will take several rounds of brood raised with good nutrition to get the hive back healthy. Simply giving a collapsing hive a new queen is not sufficient to stop the collapse.


Countryboy,

I believe I have already responded to most of the provocative statements you have made in the above post in my recent reply to you on the other poll related to acceptable levels of varroa infestation, so I will not repeat that response here.

I did want to respond to the above quoted statements, however (since it is not in your other post).

It _will_ take several rounds of brood raised with good nutrition to get the hive healthy again. It is a lot of work and it may be easier and more economical to abandon the hive to its fate and start over with another swarm, split, or package.

That being said, my experience has been that, as soon as the phoretic mites are dusted out of the hive, the bees start to recover quickly. More importantly, I wanted to refute your claim that _'By the time you can determine if a hive is doomed to fail, it will likely be too late to intervene.' _.

It is actually pretty easy using either 24h natural mite drop or estimation of phoretic infestation level through alcohol wash or dusting to determine when the mites are gaining the upper hand on a hive. Intervening of course means more than just replacing the queen. I said that I would intervene by possibly replacing the queen _and_ reducing the mite infestation to an acceptably low level.

This means treating for mites in some manner and I am aspiring to be a treatment-free beekeeper. Still, I would rather treat the hive in some manner and allow it to start over with a fresh queen than to allow it t perish needlessly and possibly increase the mite infestation of my neighboring hives.

My current 'recovery treatment' is going to be based on removing all brood and dusting the collaping hive every day for 4-7 days. In my recent experience with dusting, this will largely eliminate all mites from the hive.

This treatment is too much work for a commercial operation, but for a hobbiest with only a few hives and only needing to make this intensive intervention when a line of genetics being evaluated is filing, think the effort is acceptable.

-fafrd

p.s. and of course the levels of infestation that trigger intervention can not be static but must vary with the season (as discussed in the other poll/thread).


----------

