# High Volume OA Vaporizer for under $70 and it kicks butt! Make your own, it's easy!



## cervus (May 8, 2016)

If only I had AC power at my hives. Think a currant bush would work?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

1050 degrees F...?
315-372 degrees F is OA's sublimation temperature.


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## loghousebees (Jun 13, 2014)

"Currant"....current!:lpf:


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## MT204 (May 12, 2011)

How about a link to the instructions?


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

cervus said:


> If only I had AC power at my hives. Think a currant bush would work?


LOL! Well, maybe try a generator?



jwcarlson said:


> 1050 degrees F...?
> 315-372 degrees F is OA's sublimation temperature.


Yes, and thank you for sharing. I read about that in several threads. But keeping the temps that low at the beginning would take forever to get the OA cooking. We started at 1050F, then, once the OA melts and begins to sublimate, drop the temp on the heat gun to the required temp. The good news is that el cheap Ryobi heat gun has adjustments from 200F all the way up to 1050F.



MT204 said:


> How about a link to the instructions?


MT,

We hope to put together a step sheet with a video in the near future, showing not only how to put it together, but also to show the vaporizer in action on the hives...please be patient with us.


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## Joe Hillmann (Apr 27, 2015)

I'm not saying this system doesn't work but I have a couple concerns.

First do you have any way to measure the dose of oxalic acid per hive?

And is there any bound water in the acid that has to be evaporated out before the acid starts to evaporate? If so the first few hives may be getting nothing but water vapor, the middle hives mostly OA and the last hives may be getting smoke from burning rather than evaporating OA.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

Joe Hillmann said:


> I'm not saying this system doesn't work but I have a couple concerns.
> 
> First do you have any way to measure the dose of oxalic acid per hive?
> 
> And is there any bound water in the acid that has to be evaporated out before the acid starts to evaporate? If so the first few hives may be getting nothing but water vapor, the middle hives mostly OA and the last hives may be getting smoke from burning rather than evaporating OA.


Joe,

Excellent questions and thanks for sharing your concerns! My next experiment is to weigh the OA by grams and time the vaporization period, then divide the weight by the number of seconds required to vaporize the entire load of OA. This should give me an accurate assessment of the amount of OA that is vaporizing per second. From there, I will be able to correctly administer the proper dosage to each hive.

Regarding water in the OA...none in the OA I am using. I did purchase some OA that did have moisture in it last year, and it really threw off many of the calculations and also would not vaporize correctly in the small vaporizer I was using. I was directed to purchase the sealed OA at Ace Hardware [wood bleach], and that solved the problem.

Hope this helps!


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Thank you for the info but I will stick with my tiny little Varrocleaner. No generator to haul to the apiary, consistent measurements, no blowing tons of 1,050 degree air into the hives.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

soarwitheagles said:


> Yes, and thank you for sharing. I read about that in several threads. But keeping the temps that low at the beginning would take forever to get the OA cooking. We started at 1050F, then, once the OA melts and begins to sublimate, drop the temp on the heat gun to the required temp. The good news is that el cheap Ryobi heat gun has adjustments from 200F all the way up to 1050F.


I think I've seen videos of this type of set-up. I'll wait for one of the resident chemists to comment on exactly how this kind of thing works. I don't have much desire to use OA anymore, but if I can spend a little money and save myself some time when I DO use it, I'm all for that. I didn't mean to "thread crap".


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## noljohn (Jan 9, 2013)

Dudley if I only had a couple of hives I would do just like you're doing. But someone who has 30 hives in 3 different yards might want a faster way


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

soarwitheagles said:


> 1. Requires nearly 3 minutes at 1050F to get the large amount of OA melting and vapor to begin to flow.


You do know that heating OA to that temperature will do more harm than good dont you ?

I think OA in general is already getting a bad rap as ineffective, and that's mostly from folks using homebrew stuff that overheats it when vaporizing. If you overheat the OA, instead of sublimating, a chemical reaction will take place, and the resulting 'vapour' you see is just steam, which will have the same effect on your mites as using a steam generator to vaporize the hives.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I am not a scientist or a chemist, but have heard many times now, about oxalic acid becoming too hot and instead of sublimatating, it will turn to formic acid. Now hearing chemical reaction and steam?

Please, someone that knows. How can the acid if being heated, jump over the temperature that is required to sublime to a temperature that is higher? Even if it reaches that temperature more rapidly, how does it skip from the correct temperature to the over temp stage. I am thinking this is impossible, unless you threw it in a molten lava pit? I don't know, just asking.


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## phopkinsiii (May 4, 2014)

Thanks for posting. I love DIY projects, but...(you knew there was a but coming)
I have some of the same comments and concerns as others.
Sublimation is when a compound moves directly from a solid phase to a gas phase (think dry ice at room temp). if it moves from solid to liquid to gas, it's boiling or vaporization. I don't know if OA works the same when it boils as when it sublimates, so maybe this is a moot point.
1050 degrees is awfully hot. I would be worried about the risk of fire. My hives are surrounded by dry grass from when I mow. I suspect that the ignition point is somewhat lower than 1050.
Also, I presume that you're moving this from hive to hive while it's still emitting, in which case I would worry about gas exposure to the operator. This stuff is murder on mucus membranes of the airways and lungs!
It's $35 cheaper than the commercial product and that doesn't include the labor, which is part of the fun, I'll admit. For my time and money, I'll use a 12V battery which is portable and just spend the extra time setting up for each hive.
Just MHO 'bro.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm gonna speculate that when you turn the dial on the heat gun to 11 it doesn't really mean that it is immediately hot enough to boil lead, just like turning the thermostate to 60 doesn't immediately make Your breath come out as steam. He's just warming it up quicker. 

I'm very interested personally. Good job.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Im with David and a few others. Looks good and well made. Give yourself a pat on the back.


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## yotebuster1200 (Jul 28, 2013)

I am glad you got your rig put together and it looks like a nice unit. 

To answer some of your questions about temperature. My heat gun is variable temp but it has a dial not a digital readout. It will run from 170-1500*F. When I run mine I am somewhere around 2/3-3/4 power on the dial and a thermometer at the end where the vapor comes out only reads 330*ish. For those of us that have been messing with these types of vaporizers (both the comercial unit and the home built rigs) have come to the understanding that most of the heat input is lost before it hits the OA. In other words I have to run my unit several hundred degrees warmer for the output to equal my desired temp. I also put a gate valve on my unit to mess around with some other ideas and the lower I turn down the airflow with the gate valve the higher I have to set the heatgun temp to produce the correct output temperatures. 

Puting a latex gloved hand a few inches from the output with the vapor comming out of the unit is warm but not uncomfertable. I am not very worried about overheating the hive with my unit. 

In fact that is the reason I put a gate valve in so I could put the vapor into the hive without putting as much warm air into the hive. I didnt do It beause I was worried about the hive getting to warm I was just hoping to create a higher concentration of vapor in the air I was putting into the hive.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

dudelt said:


> Thank you for the info but I will stick with my tiny little Varrocleaner. No generator to haul to the apiary, consistent measurements, no blowing tons of 1,050 degree air into the hives.


Dudelt, I was extremely happy using my OA vaporizer from the Czech Republic last year when I had 2 hives. We just jumped up to 20 hives and may be up to 40 or more by the end of the year. With the normal vaporizer, I was spending 10+ minutes per hive...multiply that by 40, and I would be spending 6.6 hours every 5 days to vaporize all those hives...and I simply do not have that type of time to invest.

Next, I can place my hand in front of the gun as the vaporized OA emits, and it is just a bit warm but doesn't burn my hand. If I place a full 5 feet of copper tubing on the tip, I can barely feel any heat at all.

Please don't jump to fearful conclusions that are so terribly inaccurate. I came here hoping other people experimenting with these home made units would chime in and help me get it right.



jwcarlson said:


> I think I've seen videos of this type of set-up. I'll wait for one of the resident chemists to comment on exactly how this kind of thing works. I don't have much desire to use OA anymore, but if I can spend a little money and save myself some time when I DO use it, I'm all for that. I didn't mean to "thread crap".


JW, you didn't thread crap. You have consistently helped many of us on this forum in a wonderful way. And I welcome any and all constructive criticism. I am here to learn!



noljohn said:


> Dudley if I only had a couple of hives I would do just like you're doing. But someone who has 30 hives in 3 different yards might want a faster way


Exactly!



grozzie2 said:


> You do know that heating OA to that temperature will do more harm than good dont you ?
> 
> I think OA in general is already getting a bad rap as ineffective, and that's mostly from folks using homebrew stuff that overheats it when vaporizing. If you overheat the OA, instead of sublimating, a chemical reaction will take place, and the resulting 'vapour' you see is just steam, which will have the same effect on your mites as using a steam generator to vaporize the hives.


Yes, I have read the articles about overheating. I only turn the heat up until I see the OA melting [it appears EXACTLY as the smaller vaps], then I turn it back down.



phopkinsiii said:


> Thanks for posting. I love DIY projects, but...(you knew there was a but coming)
> I have some of the same comments and concerns as others.
> Sublimation is when a compound moves directly from a solid phase to a gas phase (think dry ice at room temp). if it moves from solid to liquid to gas, it's boiling or vaporization. I don't know if OA works the same when it boils as when it sublimates, so maybe this is a moot point.
> 1050 degrees is awfully hot. I would be worried about the risk of fire. My hives are surrounded by dry grass from when I mow. I suspect that the ignition point is somewhat lower than 1050.
> ...


Thanks for sharing and I have many of the same exact questions you have phop....and probably more. We live in the highest red flag area possible, so fire is a terrible thought here. To be honest with you, I took a large tractor, and with the mower and box scraper/blade, completely removed all the dead dry grass. To be honest with you, I did it more for the bee can smoker than for the OA vaporizer!



David LaFerney said:


> I'm gonna speculate that when you turn the dial on the heat gun to 11 it doesn't really mean that it is immediately hot enough to boil lead, just like turning the thermostate to 60 doesn't immediately make Your breath come out as steam. He's just warming it up quicker.
> 
> I'm very interested personally. Good job.


Thank you for your words of encouragement David, and I was thinking the same thoughts about the warm up period.



rookie2531 said:


> Im with David and a few others. Looks good and well made. Give yourself a pat on the back.


Thank you, but no pats on the back until I finally try it on the bees and it works!



yotebuster1200 said:


> I am glad you got your rig put together and it looks like a nice unit.
> 
> To answer some of your questions about temperature. My heat gun is variable temp but it has a dial not a digital readout. It will run from 170-1500*F. When I run mine I am somewhere around 2/3-3/4 power on the dial and a thermometer at the end where the vapor comes out only reads 330*ish. For those of us that have been messing with these types of vaporizers (both the comercial unit and the home built rigs) have come to the understanding that most of the heat input is lost before it hits the OA. In other words I have to run my unit several hundred degrees warmer for the output to equal my desired temp. I also put a gate valve on my unit to mess around with some other ideas and the lower I turn down the airflow with the gate valve the higher I have to set the heatgun temp to produce the correct output temperatures.
> 
> ...


Yote, nice to hear from you again. I forgot to give honor where it is due. You are the one that shared your initial thoughts about making one of these units. You kind a lit a fire inside me to try making one of these units. So thank you for your kindness and I truly do believe it can be done without having to pay out the $270 for the commercial unit that has substantial complaints about fittings not lining up.

The original post with lots of comments and experience can be found here:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?322101-Let-s-talk-about-lega-vaporizer-unit

Big thanks also to OT and Bernard for sharing valuable info and excellent videos.

I cannot remember who it was, but someone also took the commercial unit completely apart and showed the entire world what it is made like. When I saw those pics, and read your words, I thought to myself, "I can do that!"

And so began the adventure.

Finally, I have had tremendous results IN THE FALL with the vaporizer from the Czech Republic. I was not able to achieve such great results in the spring, so resorted to the incredibly effective Apivar.

And this is where I am in this adventure called, "Terminate the Mites before they Terminate your Bees!"

Have a great day everyone, and please continue to share your positive constructive criticisms, advice, suggestions, etc.

We have learned so much from the awesome people here at this forum. Thanks again for helping us.!


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Oxalic acid anhydrous and dihydrate are two different things. 

You don't vaporize at 1000 some odd degrees to treat. You set it at that as an initial point to get the unit hot. Once it has started rolling you lower the temp down to around 4, 500 hundred f to vaporize the oa.

I suspect the temp requirement being higher than the vaporizing point of the oa has allot to do with the heat soak and inefficiency of the heat to work the oa.

As far as effectiveness goes, i used my unit before the flow in beginning of may and they are doing great as far as health is concerned. 

Dosing is much different than a pan vaporizer. Your using an active method compared to passive. Therefore the gun pushes the oa around the hive to disperse it compared to saturating the hive to disperse it. I'm beginning to think that 2 grams is not accurate for a blanket treatment.

Once the hive begins to show vapor coming from its crevice, your treatment is done; next!

As far as vaporizing and sublimation go, i personally don't use the term sublimate.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid

I'll be doing a mite efficacy test on my hives once my area hits a dearth with my unit to show the effectiveness of treatment.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

soarwitheagles said:


> We hope to put together a step sheet with a video in the near future, showing not only how to put it together, but also to show the vaporizer in action on the hives...please be patient with us.


Whenever someone comes up with something new on Beesource, the naysayers fall all over themselves in their frenzy to say why it won't work.

I use the standard heated pan to OAV hives, but, at 10 hives, it takes too long for me. I look forward to learning about an inexpensive faster solution. Can't wait to see the build sheet and video!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

rookie2531 said:


> I am not a scientist or a chemist, but have heard many times now, about oxalic acid becoming too hot and instead of sublimatating, it will turn to formic acid. Now hearing chemical reaction and steam?
> 
> Please, someone that knows. How can the acid if being heated, jump over the temperature that is required to sublime to a temperature that is higher? Even if it reaches that temperature more rapidly, how does it skip from the correct temperature to the over temp stage. I am thinking this is impossible, unless you threw it in a molten lava pit? I don't know, just asking.


In the laboratory, formic acid can be obtained by heating oxalic acid in glycerol and extraction by steam distillation.[15] Glycerol acts as a catalyst, as the reaction proceeds through a glyceryl oxalate intermediary. If the reaction mixture is heated to higher temperatures, allyl alcohol results. Keep in mind that to get a liquid, and yes the OA becomes a liquid in order to boil, you have to superheat it. Even with that it is claimed OA becomes Formic acid. here is some of what formic acid is used for.

A major use of formic acid is as a preservative and antibacterial agent in livestock feed. In Europe, it is applied on silage (including fresh hay) to promote the fermentation of lactic acid and to suppress the formation of butyric acid; it also allows fermentation to occur quickly, and at a lower temperature, reducing the loss of nutritional value.[7] Formic acid arrests certain decay processes and causes the feed to retain its nutritive value longer, and so it is widely used to preserve winter feed for cattle.[18] In the poultry industry, it is sometimes added to feed to kill E. coli bacteria.[19][20] Use as preservative for silage and (other) animal feed constituted 30% of the global consumption in 2009.[10]

Formic acid is also significantly used in the production of leather, including tanning (23% of the global consumption in 2009[10]), and in dyeing and finishing textiles (9% of the global consumption in 2009[10]) because of its acidic nature. Use as a coagulant in the production of rubber[7] consumed 6% of the global production in 2009.[10]

Formic acid is also used in place of mineral acids for various cleaning products,[7] such as limescale remover and toilet bowl cleaner. Some formate esters are artificial flavorings or perfumes. *Beekeepers use formic acid as a miticide against the tracheal mite (Acarapis woodi) and the Varroa mite.*[21] Formic acid is being investigated for use in fuel cells.

I added the bold type. So even if you transform OA to Formic acid. I am not sure I see a problem. I suppose dosage might become an issue. Overall OA vapor works. I don't really care if it is still OA crystals when it works or has transformed to Formic acid to work.

I appreciate the effort you put into this DIY version and look forward to more details on how to make them. I am still on this fence with this overall design and want to see how they hold up in general over time as well as are they getting adequate results.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

The idea behind the Varrox type OAV's is that you place the exact pre-determined dose in the pan, place the unit in the hive, and seal the hive up for ~10 minutes. 

I'm not saying it won't work, but the heat gun approach seems a bit like using a firehose to snuff out a match. It would be a bit difficult to control the dosage, and when you blow "air" (+ OAV) into a hive, it has to be exhausted somewhere - also a concern for evenly distributing the application throughout the hive without over or under applying, or - as mentioned - controlling the heat/vaporization of the OA.


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## Aroc (May 18, 2016)

Trying something new is hard for some people. Keep letting us know how this is going.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Colobee said:


> The idea behind the Varrox type OAV's is that you place the exact pre-determined dose in the pan, place the unit in the hive, and seal the hive up for ~10 minutes.
> 
> I'm not saying it won't work, but the heat gun approach seems a bit like using a firehose to snuff out a match. It would be a bit difficult to control the dosage, and when you blow "air" (+ OAV) into a hive, it has to be exhausted somewhere - also a concern for evenly distributing the application throughout the hive without over or under applying, or - as mentioned - controlling the heat/vaporization of the OA.


I see the dosage issue just being achieved by a different method. In your example you use measure as the means. timing could also be a means. I agree that if there is not more OA to vaporize than a single dose than you cannot overdose. I would also prefer a one measured dose at a time method. This still does not mean it is impossible to time the vaporization of OA and find out how long it takes for a dose to vaporize. IN fact I did this when I first got my hot plate vaporizer so that I knew how long to keep it int he hive. not saying that would be reliable either just one idea of how it might be done. I have seen pellets mentioned before. so some method of dispersing a single pellet at a time into the chamber maybe.
I am not sure I agree with the dispersal point. It does not require venting with forced air or not for humidity from a boiling pot of water to spread through a house. Other factors are involved in that dispersal. In the case of a beehive the bees actually fan it. Plus no hive is air tight in the first place. I have seen others say to use this sort of device until you see the vapor come out of the top of the hive. This indicates that venting is actually happening.
Finally it is an assumption to think that a measured does is not in fact an over dose anyway.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

A homemade JB700. I like it. Well done.
Let us know when and how you work out the kinks and dosages. 
Thanks for sharing.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Lock and Load Soldier! We're going to go get us some Varroa today!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY3f8BzLw-k


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Arnie said:


> A homemade JB700. I like it. Well done.
> Let us know when and how you work out the kinks and dosages.
> Thanks for sharing.


The jb700 just came out, this attachment device has been around much longer. The concept has at least...


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

I got a question on dosage. I know what the dosage is for 1 10 frame double deep hive. But ive heard and read it does not hurt the bees only varroa. Why is dosage such a big concern when it doesnt hurt the bees. Ive never read anything about over dose. I myself have gone above the so said dose. Nothing happened. I just want to make sure it hits the mites hard. Im not saying i go overboard every time. But why is it such a big concern. Say you have 4 10 frame boxes stacked up. How do you know its going that high unless you see it coming out of the seams of the cover.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

When the bees are all covered with the ghostly oa crystals after the treatment 
then you will know how grossly they are OD. Thanks to Daniel to cover the formic acid portion. Now
I know that it is safe to burn the oav under the hive with my homemade oav gadget. No battery is required!


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

It sounds like you treat the same as i do. I have a opening under the hive and just hold my vaporizer there. Any bee above the vaporizer will be covered with the white crystals. Doesnt mran hes over dosed. Hes not dead. So you didnt answer my question beepro.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

beepro said:


> When the bees are all covered with the ghostly oa crystals after the treatment
> then you will know how grossly they are OD. Thanks to Daniel to cover the formic acid portion. Now
> I know that it is safe to burn the oav under the hive with my homemade oav gadget. No battery is required!


I am sick and tired of hearing about this mythical OAV device EVERY SINGLE THREAD. Either release it to the world or stop bragging about it.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

hex0rz said:


> The jb700 just came out, this attachment device has been around much longer. The concept has at least...


Yea, I know; but the JB700 comes to mind because it is so new.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Thanks Daniel Y, for the follow up. Great info and insight.

That is a great question billboard. I have never thought of it. Glad you did. Following this thread for sure.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

No overdose here so cannot answer your question. The bees will fan out the
oav to redistribute what's coming up from the bottom board. This is hard to
measure whether or not there is an overdose. Since members here are sick and tired of
seeing my you tube vids, I'm not posting it anymore.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Well basically thats my point. There is no over dose. Fact is it does not hurt the bees. So people worried about this new high volume oa vaporizer, its good. It will probably push the vapor thru out the hive killing those mites. Im interested in this new device. This will work great on a four deep hive.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

In this case you are correct, Billboard.
Until they have experimented with a new invention or observing how the
bees behave while oaving many will not understand the effectiveness of these
units. Since Soar is close by maybe I can borrow his one day when the resistant
bees cannot keep up or my gadgets can no longer handle the mite load currently.
To be an effective beekeeper one must have an open mind!


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Here's another question. I have seen the other thread about this homemade device and noted the water meter "t" and someone else made one out of a stainless steel y strainer and ice cream scoop handle. 

Here's my question though. It seems the most expensive part and the most time consuming to get your hands on one is the part that holds the acid cup. Why couldn't we just make it out of "galvenized" t pipe?
It is readily available at home stores. Is it because heating the galvenized metal releases toxins?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

There is a stainless steel small bowl that is food grade that I use to
test out my oav gadget. It is for holding the oa powder in. The pipe you
mention we don't know what metal they are made of. It could be toxic when
heated up to that level of high temperature.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

tanksbees said:


> I am sick and tired of hearing about this mythical OAV device EVERY SINGLE THREAD. Either release it to the world or stop bragging about it.


I just wish he'd stop talking about it, mentioning it, referring to it.

Reckon it's a spoon and cigarette lighter?


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

beepro said:


> There is a stainless steel small bowl that is food grade that I use to
> test out my oav gadget. It is for holding the oa powder in. The pipe you
> mention we don't know what metal they are made of. It could be toxic when
> heated up to that level of high temperature.


Its not heated up to that temp. Once the acid starts to vaporize its turned down. I highly doubt it reaches 1000 degs before it starts to melt.


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## Joe Hillmann (Apr 27, 2015)

rookie2531 said:


> Here's another question. I have seen the other thread about this homemade device and noted the water meter "t" and someone else made one out of a stainless steel y strainer and ice cream scoop handle.
> 
> Here's my question though. It seems the most expensive part and the most time consuming to get your hands on one is the part that holds the acid cup. Why couldn't we just make it out of "galvenized" t pipe?
> It is readily available at home stores. Is it because heating the galvenized metal releases toxins?



If you did it out of galvenized or black pipe all you would have to do is throw the pieces in a hot fire to burn any chemicals off it before you use it on the bees.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

This is a conversation from another source.
Quote 1:
I know the drill about using galvanized steel in the presence of heat, and all the 'nasties' that it can give off. The question is this - can the galvanized coating be removed relatively easily? I suddenly have access to a decent quantity of HD galvanized expanded metal, and I could replace all my charcoal baskets and worn grilling surfaces with it. If I could torch off or burn it off in a fire so they could be utilized, it would save me a great deal of $$$. 

The answers I have come up from welding forums are these: 

quote 2:
If you heat it hot enough, you'll burn off the zinc galvanizing. It will produce a thick sweet smelling white smoke and might leave a powdery residue on the screen. It will do this every time you heat it up until all of the galvanizing is burned off. The smoke is very dangerous, so do this in a well-ventilated area. I can do this outside, and we have a perennial wind. Out in the country the fumes should dissipate and not cause any issues 
quote 3:
You can remove the zinc coating by soaking over night in vinegar or in an hour or so using muriatic acid. A 50% solution of Muriatic acid and water will remove it. be sure to wear eye protection. Placed in diluted muriatic zinc/galvanized will almost instantly begin to react & fizz, even if it is hidden under a rusty layer. Continue bath until ALL fizzing stops, then rinse in baking soda & water to neutralize. It will start rusting very quickly after it is rinsed with clean water. If you use vinegar or acid to remove it, you can neutralize it with water and, as Rick stated, it will rust quickly. However, if you use HOT water, the water will evaporate before it flash rusts.

just as things are starting to look good for removal of zinc, there is this.

Quote 4:
Depending upon how layers ("series of distinct iron-zinc alloys), you might not have much metal left. (this has always been my impression)

Quote 5:
I will let you draw your own conclusion from this; about 20 years ago I was doing some cutting/welding on galvanized steel one saturday. There was I thought more than adequate vinilation. On Monday I kind of went into lala land and was rushed to the hospital. The arsnic level in my body was found at near fatal levels due to galvanized poisoning. It took the better part of a year to recover, some minor damage to brain tissue was non reversible. 

Pretty steep price to pay for someone thinking you can burn the zinc off Galvanized fittings. Now that last comment was in regard to someone that ignored the risk of heated zinc. Thinking they had adequate ventilation. Thinking they had a better idea of how to get away with it. The advice still stands as. You don't heat galvanized (Zinc coated) parts.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Heating galvanized metal puts off "mustard" gas. That's the stuff they used to kill thousands of soldiers in WWII, before chemical weapons were banned.

Have fun experimenting on your bees & honey with OAV shortcuts & alternatives. Hopefully there isn't a big media scare about honey that has been "poisoned" by alternative mite treatment techniques, or, heaven forbid - the retraction of the law allowing the approved treatment.

There is an approved method, and approved treatment amounts that don't elevate OA levels in the hive. 

Some people just shouldn't have access to both matches AND gasoline at the same time.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Thanks, once again Daniel, very interesting read.
And colobee, you have valid points, but I hope you don't think that I will just experiment Willy nilly, that is why I am asking. Not knowing and asking is better than "experimenting" on my own. I'm sure there has been enough of that done, where we can share knowledge and learn from the first experimenters. Hehe


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

No offense intended. Just some things to think about... Bee keeping is often about trying new things.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

Colobee said:


> Heating galvanized metal puts off "mustard" gas. That's the stuff they used to kill thousands of soldiers in WWII, before chemical weapons were banned.
> 
> Have fun experimenting on your bees & honey with OAV shortcuts & alternatives. Hopefully there isn't a big media scare about honey that has been "poisoned" by alternative mite treatment techniques, or, heaven forbid - the retraction of the law allowing the approved treatment.
> 
> ...


Colobee,

Thanks for sharing. It would be nice to see some documented scientific data regarding your claims that galvanized metal puts off mustard gas. I am aware that the initial burn in period using galvanized pipe does release some zinc oxide (ZnO) and/or magnesium oxide (MgO) and that people exposed to these fumes over long periods of time can experience metal fume fever. Most galvanized pipe has a zinc coating on it.

This is the main reason I haven't even placed the OA gun on the hives yet.

But I have heard nothing whatsoever about "Mustard Gas."

I can easily switch from galvanized to black pipe. Black pipe does not have the zinc coating and is used extensively for high temperature steam line applications. So that does indeed sound safer!

Thank you for sharing your concerns. As I have stated from the beginning, I am in this to experiment and learn.

I am finding it incredibly interesting and at times amusing as I read the various responses arriving at this forum!

Consider the diverse responses:

There appears to be three categories of responses:

*1. Positive encouraging, keep up the good job and keep reading, keep learning, and keep on experimenting until you have it right group.*
*2. Negative, filled with fear, and at times even anger and scorn group.*
3. Sit back and let's see group.


What group are you in?

I am enjoying the ride, learning a lot, and hope to arrive at a good level of success! If I fail, I will have the joy of at least doing my best to succeed. And I kinda like that!

Cheers!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm in the doer group much like you, Soar.
I learned a lot by doing my little bee experiment every year. My bees are very hardy and
forgiving for torturing them this way.
I'm lucky enough to get 2 Cordovan queens ship first then pay later to 
experiment on my expandable non-graft frame. Either way our experiment will be moving
forward hopefully with some successful documentation never mind the failure. The way I look at it is
nothing ventured nothing gain. It is better to fail then learn something from it than not doing anything at all.
Watching the bee hives crashed after 4 years for me is no fun either. Glad that the mites are finally under control now!


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I should have said "welding". 'Probably much higher temps than vaping OA. It may be just another "urban legend", but this popped up in a quick search: http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/39087-Artical-about-deadly-gas-formed-when-welding. There is much subsequent discussion about the validity of the claim, or lack thereof. Phosgene requires a certain kind of solvent, so just plain welding (or heating) may not produce it - just something to consider when heating any metal.

My OAV has a stainless steel heat pan. 

I also meant WWI, before it (chemical warfare) was banned.


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## popeye (Apr 21, 2013)

Im in the sit back lets see group


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

MAQS is so much easier and faster. 

I really need to get around to making the OA cardboard strips too. Very interested in their effectiveness. The more I've vaporized OA the more I've fallen out of love with vaporizing OA.
I am, however, interested in this type of application method. For broodless "winter" treatments.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Colobee said:


> I should have said "welding". 'Probably much higher temps than vaping OA. It may be just another "urban legend", but this popped up in a quick search: http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/39087-Artical-about-deadly-gas-formed-when-welding. There is much subsequent discussion about the validity of the claim, or lack thereof. Phosgene requires a certain kind of solvent, so just plain welding (or heating) may not produce it - just something to consider when heating any metal.


If you google break cleaner + argon, you get a lot of safety warnings about forming phosgene gas while welding parts that were cleaned with break cleaner. However, every article (including the one that you linked to) references the exact same web page: http://www.brewracingframes.com/safety-alert-brake-cleaner--phosgene-gas.html 

However, you google phosgene gas, wiki says the following:

Upon ultraviolet (UV) radiation in the presence of oxygen, chloroform slowly converts into phosgene by a radical reaction. To suppress this photodegradation, chloroform is often stored in brown-tinted glass containers. Chlorinated compounds used to remove oil from metals, such as automotive brake cleaners, are converted to phosgene by the UV rays of arc welding-processes.

So don't weld anything that you cleaned with chlorinated solvents until you are sure the cleaner has evaporated. 

I dont think think any of this has anything to do with heating OA in a pipe.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> The more I've vaporized OA the more I've fallen out of love with vaporizing OA.


How come? Care to elaborate?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

cervus said:


> Care to elaborate?


Via PM I will. I'm not going to burn this thread to the ground on soar... hopefully not at least.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> Via PM I will. I'm not going to burn this thread to the ground on soar... hopefully not at least.


Understood.


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## Beefever (Jul 26, 2015)

Like this design. Would love to see more pictures if available.


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