# Its official!!!!



## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Wait till you have got a queen bouncing around all day in hot dusty UPS truck. Or left in the hot sun as in most places a place of arrival pickup does not happen as the driver comes in an loads his own truck and is gone. In rural areas (Odessa, Mo.) the dock is not maned during the day , I for one are getting tired of talking to machines! At least at the post office you deal with a person.

The post office has tried to get out of hauling bees many times but efforts by national organizations to keep the post office hauling bees has been succesful *so far*.

Lots of nice people in the world of business but the arrival of live bees is the issue. 

I would rather deal with a grumpy postal employee ( I personally like the way our post office has treated my queen shipments over the last couple decades as I have never had a claim) than see my queens left out in the sun & rain by UPS.

Most bees move through the post office without problems.

All of us which have looked into the issue would take the post office (with the current problems) over UPS .

My two cents on the subject. 

Maybe a subject for tailgater but government employees not doing their job have got more job security than the best unions provide.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

>>>>All of us which have looked into the issue would take the post office (with the current problems) over UPS .<<<<
Um Bob that should maybe read "Some of us....."

We have been getting queen shipments for many years and after numerous dead queens delivered via USPS, we now demand UPS overnight. 
I think it has a lot to do with where one is located, and the route between destinations, as to what works best. In our area of rural Wisconsin, for us, UPS is the best bet. USPS is not immune to an individual carrier putting packages on the dashboard or out in the rain. I suspect this has more to do with the individual carrier's attitude and education, not the service itself. Communicating with your carrier when expecting live queens is an important step, especially if it is not a regular item delivered. Both our local USPS and UPS drivers know us and handle queens with care. It is not the delivery person we have ever had a problem with, it is somewhere on some loading dock between the breeder and us, that things have gone awry. For us, UPS has been flawless. Might be different on your route.
Sheri

[ August 29, 2006, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: JohnK and Sheri ]


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I have heard alot recently about usps not taking live bees or other live items. In the past 10 days, I have shipped to North Carolina, Michigan, New York, New Jersey and Texas. Not one rejected mailing. In fact, I have never had them rejected.

The only two problems I have ever had in three years of shipping usps is 1)a yet to be found package that was mailed to Michigan the week that St. Louis lost power a month or two back. 2) A package that was somehow marked "return to sender" the same day they had the terrorist scare a couple weeks back with the plane coming from England. They were flying out of New Jersey and the flight had been halted for a period of time. Knowing they(bees) may be sitting for an unknown period of time, they sent a driver to deliver my precious bees back to me on a saturday afternoon. Now thats service.

BTW, they reimbursed me the postage and the cost of the bees since I had to take the time to reintroduce the queens and pull fresh ones to mail back out. They settled on the spot in cash. And sent the new ones off with a smile.

I think that with any business, there are good stories and bad. I am happy someone else tells the bad stories and I am left with the good ones...  

I agree with Rob. The personal service, holding my bees at the post office, calling me personally and not leaving them "at the door", and other factors so far make the usps my preferred method.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

"Um Bob that should maybe read "Some of us....."

Ditto....... My local USPS folks are too
notch to a tee. The problem lies not with
them, but in thier pipeline, for me anyway.

I can chose to drive 35 miles roundtrip to
pick up queens that have been dead or ruined
more than 50% of the time (last one was Chefs
queen), or have UPS deliver to my door (never 
had a dead queen from them yet).

I am sure it depends on where you are 
geographically with USPS.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Bruce, are those the ones that used marshmellows for the candy?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

BjornBee 

she arrived in great shape









Dave


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

>>>>.....The personal service, holding my bees at the post office, calling me personally and not leaving them "at the door", ....<<<<
You should be complaining at your particular UPS about your local service; our local UPS does all those things, plus delivers twice a day. 
Maybe UPS heard you are bad-mouthing them?









On the other hand......>>>>sent a driver to deliver my precious bees back to me .....reimbursed me the postage and the cost of the bees<<<< If these bees were NOT insured this is indeed above and beyond.

Everything is local,
Sheri


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## Iowabeeman (Mar 9, 2003)

We always get our queens UPS Next Day Air. I would never trust the Post Office with a box of 100. We do ship small lots of queens via the post office. I have explained the shipping situation several tmes but I don't think anybody reads my posts. Here it is for one last time. It depends on who the contract mail carrier is out of your hub. We have FedEx carrying USPS mail out of Des Moines. They will not take live bees even though post office regs say they can. Northwest carries mail out of the Twin Cities. they will take bees. It also makes a big difference what lane you are using. I have real good luck shipping into southern Minnesota. They get there overnight. For any place that is even slightly off a major lane, we ship our queens UPS. If you are only going one or two states away, UPS Ground gets there as fast as 2nd Day Air.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Sheri, I know you added the little smiley face...

>>>"Maybe UPS heard you are bad-mouthing them? [[Smile]]"

But to be clear, I have never said a bad word about fedex or ups. I would have no basis. I do talk positive about usps. I'll let the "negative" comments for another.

I did outline many tips and items in another recent thread, that I feel helps me personally when mailing usps. Things like not signing the delivery waiver, using priority in some situations and express in others, etc. Not one comment from those harping about all thier bad experiences. Not one, "Wow, I never thought of that" or "That might make a difference". Nothing but the constant continual drumbeat of negativity.

Sometimes I wonder what good could come out of such threads if instead of a basis for harping on the bad experience, the thread could focus on what others are doing to ensure success or minimalize failure. 

BTW, express usps is always insured automatically.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

You are right, you didn't bad mouth them. The devil made me do it, I kept visualizing a little UPS guy trying to get revenge, but maybe he is just jealous you like USPS more.... sorry.
OK, fedex does business with the USPS, see Phil, I pay attention, I just may not remember too long. I also see UPS dropping off and picking up packages from USPS. What is that all about? By saying we only use UPS, USPS, Fedex etc is it a little like saying we only buy cars made in the USA? 
I agree with how positive attitude is very effective in life. On the other hand, a one sided positive attitude sometimes needs to have a little balance thrown it. Everyone's experiences, good and bad, in a particular situation do help educate us all. Yin/yang
Sheri
PS I should say that when sending one or two queens out of our area, I think USPS is worth the risk, IF sent 2nd day air. We don't have the overnight option here, except UPS, but for 1 or 2 it is too costly. I ship beeswax, candles or honey out every day with the USPS, they are great, but if I was going to send out 100 queens or recieve that many, I would definitely go UPS.

[ August 29, 2006, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: JohnK and Sheri ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm with Bjorn. I ship a lot of queens and I've never had a shipment rejected. I'm really baffled that you've had two. I wonder if someone at your postoffice is confusing shipping queens with shipping package bees?


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Michael and Bjorn:

First, you all gotta understand that it is about location. I am in area 1... all the way northwest!!! Now if I was in NE or PA, it would be easier. This is what the post office person said when calling and checking on the ability to ship queens to West Virgina..... my last order:

"Do to the fact that most carriers are not allowing "live" items and that you live in WA State, you will not have al ot of luck shipping at this present time"

THERE IT IS.... FROM THE USPS WORKERS!!!! 

Anyway, my question is..... I wonder if it would be better to not label it "live" 

I am curious Bjorn..... how do you do it if you have soo much luck and do you think not labeling it "live" would work???

The UPS guys were great!!! Talk about customer service!!!!! It is great!!!! 


I am not trying to complain but this has been an ongoing issue for me and it cost me a dead queen.

When this happened, I even called Dan at Purvis and talked with him. He said he feels the same way and that he thinks it is only going to get worse due to terrorism. 


I am looking for any advice from anyone else on shipping.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

bjorn:

and come on..... I learned from the marshmellow inacadent.... AND THEY BOTH WERE ALIVE!!!!


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## xC0000005 (Nov 17, 2004)

You're a chef. I bet next time you cook up something that tastes so good the bees won't want to leave the package, even if it's open. (Alternately you could make some "healthy candy" and if the bees are like me they'll starve before they eat their way out).


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

perhaps chef a few 'chef issac treats' left for the postmen might sweeten them up just a bit.
as sheri has suggested everything is local. perhaps doing a bit of positive pr at the post office might yield some positive returns.

just a thought...


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Yeah Chef. Be more like chef from southpark. There's a chef that knows how to woo them.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Thats not the problem. I have sold honey to them ajority of the postal people that work the front desk but it is on the other side.

How the heck is leaving treats going to convince Jet Blue to carry a live queen bee to someone???? I wish it was that easy!!!

My question... again.... will it make a difference if I do not label the package "live"????


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Chef, I'm thinking that for long distances with airplanes involved, that "live" packages are not put in the normal cargo holds. They would probably freeze if they were. I really have no sure idea on the matter and could be wrong. I'm just thinking "live" shipping is handled differently. Maybe thats part of the hassle and the friction with some carriers.

Why don't you do this. Ship a queen in a normal express envelope and not mark it "live". Mail it far enough that you know it will be on a plane. Say, something like Pennsylvania. Lewisberry Pennsylvania would be a good destination. And to make sure it was not coincidence if the queen should die, better mail two. The more, the better the odds and clearer the picture. I would do a minimum of 5. You can chalk it up as business expense, but the lesson would be worth it.

Let me know how it works out.

BTW, feel free to use, 696 Potts Potts Hill Road, Lewisberry, Pa. 17339

I can't speak for others, but I am more than happy to donate my time and energy in your experiment...


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Chef, one more thing. Dropping a few treats is not the same thing as you "sold" them some honey. And perhaps your honey is not as sweet as you think....Ok, just joking of course.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I don't know that my two-cents' worth will add much to this. I've received queens through both UPS and USPS, and I've received packages through both UPS and USPS. So far, I haven't had a bad experience with either one. I can't speak for FedEx -- just by chance, I never received any bees through FedEx when I was in Kansas, and now I'd choose not to use FedEx is at all possible simply because their closest location is about 75 miles from me.

The service through both UPS and USPS, in my experiences, was excellent. I've never had dead bees show (well, some dead ones in the bottoms of the packages, but that's to be expected), only once did I have a queen left in the mailbox (and she was fine). The biggest factor between the two, as far as I'm concerned, is cost. Shipping one or two queens, the most I'm likely to order at any time, through UPS Next Day Service costs something like $40 to $50 here. Shipping through Priority Mail is about $5.


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

Speaking of UPS not being manned... Our local UPS depot (a reasonably large one), is only manned a few odd hours during the day. If you get there any other time there is a phone number posted on the building, but calls from a cell phone are blocked. You must call the phone number from a land line. Does that make any sense? 

I've fortunately had pretty good luck with both UPS and USPS (I don't belive FedEx will handle bees at all), of course I'm sure my location helps. I have had a few apparently isolated problems with USPS. Though they can't for some reason get an Express (1-2 day) Package from Ohio to Beverly, West Virginia in less than 5 days  

-Tim


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

"Though they can't for some reason get an Express (1-2 day) Package from Ohio to Beverly, West Virginia in less than 5 days [Frown]"

And from Ohio to North Dakota (4 days Express), and Minesota to North Dakota (4 days Priority and all dead), and California to North Dakota (75% queen loss). I must be in a cursed USPS sector.....


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## pahvantpiper (Apr 25, 2006)

Last year I ordered a total of 10 packages of bees and 5 queens through the USPS (under serving pathetic service)on two separate occasions. Almost all of the bees in 5 packages were dead - got too hot and threw up all over themselves. Of the 5 queens I ordered, 3 were dead. I talked to the two different producers and they said it is a problem they deal with regularly. 

This year I ordered 200 packages from an outfit in California and drove out and got them myself. I didn't lose a single one the whole trip, how about that!

Next year I have to order over 1000 queens, a couple hundred at a time throughout the early spring, and I have no idea what to do...I'll probably go with whatever route the producers feel comfortable with and hope for the best...and get plenty of insurance.


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## Panhandle Bee man (Oct 22, 2003)

Chef,

It's just not you. Wilbank's, BWeaver, Chuck Norton, and Gus Rouse reporting the same issues. Read about it in September's "American Bee Journal".


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I still think the post office workers have confused the regulations for shipping package bees with the regulations for shipping queens. I don't know of a limit on distance for queens, but there is one on package bees.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

michael:

but distance is not an issue as it is carriers out of the hub in areas.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

panhandle: I would love to read it.... if it would come in the mail!!!!!!!


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hello All,
A few thoughts:

I have got an employee which left me to work for one the above three large queen producers for a season and then returned. He said banking queens and shipping queens banked a month was not unusual.

Was the trip through the delivery service the last straw? No way of knowing!

If they are insured then what's the problem? Collect and have the supplier ship another queen/queens.

All of the above three queen producers belong to the ABF as do I. I have sat in meetings when ways to keep the USPS from not stopping handlng queens
and packages was discussed. 

In todays fast changing world both USPS and UPS could stop handling bees with a simple rule change and the beekeeping industry would not have anyway to ship queens. Packages could be trucked cross country and some queens could be sent then.

All three of the above queen producers are worried. I am on a first name basis with all the above and have been in meetings when shipment of queens was discussed.

If you are having poor luck with USPS I suspect a local problem. Perhaps you pissed off the postal emplyees? I know what happens when you piss off the cook in a food establishment. Food ever taste like spit when brought back to the table?

Instead of bad mouthing you should be thankful we have *at this time* two ways to ship queens!

Did you know that some airlines will not insure packages of bees from Australia? Two pallets die because the pilot turns the heat up in cargo area and the Australia shipper is out $80,000.

I understand it is upsetting when you get a queen and the queen is dead but we must look at the big picture. 

Insurance is the key. 

Hauling live animals is not a big profit maker for USPS or UPS.

We all complained when UPS stopped insuring glassware but we have never been able to change the ruling. One day the handled glassware with breakage insurance and the next day NOT!


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Some interesting points Rob.

I order early spring queens for splits and some placing of queens in nucs for commercial operators who want early nucs and are not particular on queen type. They just want a box of bees, etc. Anyways, I had been experiencing 1 or two dead out of 25 per package I was getting. Never complained much. Then I started getting 3, 4 and sometimes 5. I had contacted the "major" queen producer, and explained what was going on. I suggested that maybe the person caging queens had changed or something was different as I had noticed the quality going downhill. The comment back to me was "Oh, I'll make sure they ship out "fresh" queens next time!"

Huh? Next time "fresh"???....I had assumed all queens being shipped were fresh. Opened my eyes up, thats for sure.

As a side note.. In some of these packages of 25 queen cages(wooden), there would be one in the middle of the bundle with all the bees dead. Not just one or two attendants, but every bee including the queen. I could see if it was one bee here or there. But how does not one bee in all the other 24 cages not have one dead bee, and one single cage had all 6 or 7 bees dead? I assume someone is covering their losses by throwing in a "dead" cage thats been around too long and passing on the loss, letting someone eat it, and hoping they would not complain. Hmmm...


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

BjornBee,
I don't believe the listed queen producers would ever on purpose send a dead queen. The bees in the center are always the most likely to die.

The first queens shipped when queen rearing starts are always the worst from all southern queen breeders. They will tell you so. Poor matings and the process is just starting. Middle of the season you get the best queens and towards the end many times (certainly not always) you run the *risk* of getting banked queens.

All queen producers try and produce twice the number of queens for the orders they book. When things go perfect they can end up with close to twice the queens they have got booked. Small queen producers get in trouble by over booking and spending all their time on the phone trying to change dates.

This year was the first year I could not get a large order of queens in late April by calling all the queen producers. All of the above talked about were called (not by me directly if they are reading but Bell Honey) and none could supply.

So 500 queens were ordered from Terry Brown in Australia. All 500 came in alive.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Rob, I did not mention "any" producer, and it was not one that had been mentioned in this thread. I find it hard to believe that every bee in one cage would be dead, and all the other cages had not one single dead bee. Somethings smells to me....


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Rob:

you make some good points but I have to say that not all queen producers will tell the the first batches of queen bees are not as good. 

and thats all I am saying!!!!!!


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

Why not mail them OVERNIGHT EXPRESS ??
I think the post office still has that service, at least every time I've shipped a package they ask me if I want it, as long as it is posted within the time constrants (piror to the last pick-up), costs more with insurance and all, BUT.........


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

silver:

because they STILL HAVE TO USE A PLAN to get the queen from point A to point B!!!!!


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

"Overnight Express" isn't necessarily "overnight." I'm not trying to give the USPS a bad rap -- remember that I mentioned earlier that I've had good luck shipping both queens and packages through USPS.

When living in Kansas, I regularly mailed letters, etc., home to South Dakota. From talking to the recipients, I knew that I could count on first-class mail getting from Kansas to South Dakota in two working days. Priority mail also took two working days. I had a package that I needed to ship from Kansas to South Dakota in two days. The post office will not guarantee arrival of priority mail in two days (they state that delivery of priority mail is made in an average of 2 to 3 days, not guaranteed in that time frame). I was told that shipping the package to South Dakota from Kansas by Express mail ("overnight," but not overnight because of the way mail is handled in some of these less-populated areas) would take two days. I told the clerk at the post office that I would send the package first class, not priority and not express. I figured from past experience that it would get to its destination in two days, and it did.

The moral of the story is that Express mail doesn't guarantee overnight delivery at least in some places, and less-expensive mailing options can be just as fast as more-expensive mailing options.

One last hint: I have been told by several postmasters that adding "Delivery Confirmation" to a Priority Mail package will speed up the delivery. "Delivery Confirmation" allows the sender and the recipient to track the package, and the postmasters I've talked to claim that the postal service is anxious to get these packages delivered.


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

Just think of mailing to Hawaii or over seas and the question; do you want it regular, first class or express?? 
 Do they still use ships for mail to those locations??  
Me think that it all goes by air.  Just a museing.


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