# Virgin Queen Production with JZBZS wide base cups



## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

Will the hair roller cages fit over jzbz wide base cups? I am needing to produce some virgin queens and can't figure out how to go about it with jzbz queen cups. I e-mailed Jim and he wasn't sure if they would work or not. how do you all produce virgin queens with these cups. 

Thanks in advance
Dan Williams


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

Check out Tim Tarheits site he has a nursery frame that holds capped queen cells. I used it last year with jzbz wide based cups. You could probably make it yourself.


nursery frame http://www.honeyrunapiaries.com/store/nursery-frame-p-242.html


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I use the JZBZ cups with the Jenter hair curler cages and I use a bar across the bottom which I rubber band to the bar with the cups to hold it against the bottom of the hair curler cages.


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

Tim Arheit, no T in his last name.


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

Check Latshaw Apiaries, he describes how to emerge virgins in a paragraph under "care of II queens" then there is a picture of it at "banking".
Heres the home page http://www.latshawapiaries.com/


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

The JZ BZ wide base cell cups will fit in the California style cages like Latshaw shows. http://www.latshawapiaries.com/banking_queens.htm
It can help to enlarge the hole a bit, particularly if there is a lot of wax on the cell.

I end up using both the cages and banking bars. The banking bars make it easier for me to handle a lot of cells and transfer them from incubator to hive or carry them out to place in nucs. But the cages make it easier to handle individual virgins when doing II

The downside with the cages it that you can only purchase them in case quantities as far as I know.

Sue Cobey always had cages made of #8 hardware cloth when she was in columbus. (4" long, 3/4" diameter plugged with a 1" piece of 3/4" dowel rod). They work as well and give the queen a lot of room to run. I make some, but there is no real commercial source for them.

There is a debate if the larger area or smaller screen opening is better for the queens. I can't say I've seen much difference, but you might under different conditions.

-Tim


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanks for the info guys. Looks like I'm going to have to custom make something for the queen cells or get something off Tim. What would be awesome is if some sort of way jzbzs came up with something to emerge them right into one of his queen cages. I have been doing some research on introducing virgin queens to mating nucs instead of using cells. So I am wanting to experiment with that some this year. 

-Dan


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

I've done a fair amount of introducing virgins. More due to timing issues (weather, etc.). It generally works pretty well.

-Tim


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

Long Lane sells the cali. mini cages individually http://www.honeybeesonline.com/servlet/Detail?no=56
Also I have seen some pics of I.I. producers emerging into little glass bottles.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

i have heard it done before, that you can stick the cell in a JZ BZ cell protector then stick the tip of that in theJXBX queen cage hole (not the candy tube the hole next to it) and a small dab of hot glue or super glue will hold it together. i never tried it but it sounds like it would work.

regards Nick


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

swarm_trapper said:


> i have heard it done before, that you can stick the cell in a JZ BZ cell protector then stick the tip of that in theJXBX queen cage hole (not the candy tube the hole next to it) and a small dab of hot glue or super glue will hold it together. i never tried it but it sounds like it would work.


 Bumping this up... I have the same question... has anyone tried this? or gotten the jzbz cell cup into the queen cage?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Hi Karla (and all),

A few things to keep in mind:

1. There are 2 styles of the JZBZS cell cups...the "push in" (which requires a hole drilled in the cell bar for each cup), and the "wide base" (which requires a thin saw kerf for the pins to stick into...a grooved bottom bar works well as a cell bar for this style cup).

2. The 2 styles have different outside diameters (the "push in" is smaller, the "wide base" is...wider).

I use an incubator (Reptibator brand), and have tried a number of things:

1. 3 Dram Glass Vials: Work well if you are going to introduce the queen soon after emergence. After about 48 hours, the glass gets gross. It is difficult to feed honey without it getting all over the inside of the vial.

2. The push in cups (with the smaller diameter) are too small to sit in the hair roller cages, but if you get the "candy plugs" for the hair roller cages, it acts to reduce the diameter, and a push in cage will fit nicely.

3. The wide base cell cups seem to fit nicely directly into the hair roller cages without the candy plug....my first round with these cell cups goes into the incubator today, so I will report back how it works.

4. When the hair roller cages were on backorder, and I thought they wouldn't be here before emergence, I experimented with JZBZs cages and cell protectors. Using the orange cell protectors (the ones that sit between top bars), I was able to simply clip the bottom ring of plastic (leaving the longitudinal plastic intact), insert the modified bottom end into the hole in the JZBZS cage (not the candy tube, the other hole), and spread the plastic apart (like a rivet). Even without heat or glue, I was able to get the cell protector in well enough to work. In the end, I didn't do this as the hair roller cages arrived, and there is the additional issue of a stand to hold the JZBZS cage upright in the incubator.

deknow


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

deknow said:


> 3. The wide base cell cups seem to fit nicely directly into the hair roller cages without the candy plug....my first round with these cell cups goes into the incubator today, so I will report back how it works.


Yes that would work.. but I wonder how in an actual hive- not an incubator. I have a queen bank frame and I could probably sit the hair roller cage in that with the wide base cup on top. Time will tell- we are just starting tommorow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I read something that Michael Bush described, and I would try this.

put a toothpick through the hair roller cage
loop a rubberband over each end of the toothpick and over the cell bar

if there is room for the hair roller cage, this should work just fine.

deknow


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

I came across this picture on VPQUEEN site, scroll down to the picture of the wooden cages with queen cells stuck in the hole. It looks to me that they are three hole Benton cages? http://www.vpqueenbees.com/breeding.html


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

muskratcreekhoney said:


> I came across this picture on VPQUEEN site, scroll down to the picture of the wooden cages with queen cells stuck in the hole. It looks to me that they are three hole Benton cages? http://www.vpqueenbees.com/breeding.html


Hi
Yes, you are correct. Benton 3-hole cages, candy, with 5-7 attendants, ripe cell, emerge in incubator. I wish we could use JZBZ cages for this as readily.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Adam,

I have experienced queens chewing through the top of the queen cell with a similar arrangement - do you ever get them escaping from the top? Also - what are those discs on the web page cited above with queens underneath? They look like a marking tube that was cut down.

Regarding hair roller cages - I have necked them down with plastic tubing with an outside diameter that fits the cage and an inside diameter for the queen cups.


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

ADAMF-


> Benton 3-hole cages, candy, with 5-7 attendants, ripe cell, emerge in incubator.


What a great idea! It never occured to me to place attendants in the cage, thanks for sharing.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

HVH said:


> Adam,
> 
> I have experienced queens chewing through the top of the queen cell with a similar arrangement - do you ever get them escaping from the top?


Hi--we try not to let that happen by checking the cells often. As soon virgins emerge, the cell is removed and the end corked. This takes time. They usually like to chew out of their cells in the middle of the night... 



> Also - what are those discs on the web page cited above with queens underneath? They look like a marking tube that was cut down.


Do you mean this?
http://www.vpqueenbees.com/images/queens_waking_10.jpg

If so, these are II queens waking up after receiving their 2nd CO2 treatment. We have a really nice column CO2 "gasser" that can do a bunch of queens at the same time. A really nice gentelman in Kelly's lab made this for us years ago--he was really bored and waiting retirment. Making tools for our II set-up was interesting for him and he made us all kinds of cool stuff. We don't use this that much becasue we're giving virgins their first CO2 treatment the day before they are insmeinated, usually out in the field.



> Regarding hair roller cages - I have necked them down with plastic tubing with an outside diameter that fits the cage and an inside diameter for the queen cups.


I never had luck with them. The virgins mostly died after emerging in these and then we moved to emerging virgins into cages with attendents. I have 50 hair roller cages if someone wants to buy them, send me an email/pm.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

adamf said:


> Hi--we try not to let that happen by checking the cells often. As soon virgins emerge, the cell is removed and the end corked. This takes time. They usually like to chew out of their cells in the middle of the night...


 I've had them chew through the tops but I was using 100% hand dipped cell cups. 





> Do you mean this?
> http://www.vpqueenbees.com/images/queens_waking_10.jpg


 Yes - Those are really nice. 



> If so, these are II queens waking up after receiving their 2nd CO2 treatment. We have a really nice column CO2 "gasser" that can do a bunch of queens at the same time. A really nice gentelman in Kelly's lab made this for us years ago--he was really bored and waiting retirment. Making tools for our II set-up was interesting for him and he made us all kinds of cool stuff. We don't use this that much becasue we're giving virgins their first CO2 treatment the day before they are insmeinated, usually out in the field.


 So I guess those fit onto your column gasser?





> I never had luck with them. The virgins mostly died after emerging in these and then we moved to emerging virgins into cages with attendents.


 Virgins fade really quickly in an incubator if unattended so it seems really smart to add a few bees to a cage like you have.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

HVH said:


> So I guess those fit onto your column gasser?


Each "well" nests into the next one. The base has a tube nipple for the CO2 line and top well is sealed with saran wrap. I think there are 6 wells--so we can gas 6 queens at once indoors.

We've been caging virgins and putting them into a large zip-lock bag, then gassing them, in the field. The gas pressure must be very gradual--I've managed to "pop" a few queens with too high a pressure. Not good . Always learning with apiculture/beekeeping! 



> Virgins fade really quickly in an incubator if unattended so it seems really smart to add a few bees to a cage like you have.


Yes. Also, once the virgins emerge, and the cages are sealed, we move them from the incubator to a cabinet with 70-75 degrees F temp. They are much happier with that temperature. The cages have queen candy in 'em, of course and they get honey and water twice a day.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## WVBees (Jun 10, 2011)

Dan,

Have you had any luck with fitting the JZBZ wide directly into the queen cages or even the roller cages? Exactly the same issue I have.

I am thinking some kind of dowel reducer, with one end fitting over the cell cup and the other over the queen cage. Should be just a matter of drilling a hole in a dowel rod. I will give it a go in the morning.

Can't believe that JZBZ do not have a queen cage product that is a push fit onto the cell cup or to directly connect the hair roller cage to the wide cell cup.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I'm sure if anyone has mentioned it to Mr. Paysen, if it's practical he'll be working on it.


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

Joseph Clemens said:


> I'm sure if anyone has mentioned it to Mr. Paysen, if it's practical he'll be working on it.


 I emailed Jim the other day, he stated that he could make something if their was a demand for it. He also sent a picture with the queen cell cup glued to JZBZ cage opening(the hinged opening not the candy opening) but you then need some way of holding them in a frame.










I know it looks stupid but it worked well for me. The cell bar holder is drilled out so as to accept the neck of the cage. The only problem was that a few didn't make it completely out of the cell and died. My guess is that for the healthiest queens need attendants in the cage like ADAMF does.


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