# Screened Bottom Boards/Small Hive Beetles/Varroa mites



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

A recent thread on the subject.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ttom-Boards-(SBB-s)&highlight=screened+bottom
Regarding number 6 on your list...the answer is yes.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Jim Giles said:


> I am considering investing in this screened bottom board to combat small hive beetles and Varroa mites.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> ...


Rusty


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

beemandan said:


> A recent thread on the subject.
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ttom-Boards-(SBB-s)&highlight=screened+bottom
> Regarding number 6 on your list...the answer is yes.


Thank you. I read the thread and appreciate your candor and rigorous and critical analysis. I wish there were more people like you around.

I would like to know whether your experience with SBBs is with SBBs that have an oil pan? Can SHBs get around an oil pan? It seems that the bees would chase the SHBs through the screen and down into the oil where they would die?


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Jim Giles said:


> Can SHBs get around an oil pan? It seems that the bees would chase the SHBs through the screen and down into the oil where they would die?


Occasionally I find a few in my bottom compartment, but not many and not often. Most seem to wind up in the oil pan and die. The problem with SHBs is that they fly right in the front door, so even though the bees do a good job of running them into the trap, more fly right in and walk around like they own the place! My oil pans keep the numbers way, WAY down but I always seem to have a few. Just not very many.

HTH 

Rusty


----------



## beeditch (Dec 19, 2013)

mo -- motor oil?


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Jim Giles said:


> I would like to know whether your experience with SBBs is with SBBs that have an oil pan?


I did try some a few years ago and they did drown shb. I also have a friend who uses a variety of shb traps....and loves them because she drowns a lot of beetles. I've noticed though, when working her hives and mine her overall infestations still seem every bit as bad as any of mine. In my opinion, if your desire is to drown shb then traps are the way to go but don't believe that they provide a significant solution.

To my thinking, keep your hives populous and queenright...especially as the season progresses and place your hives in full sun. Add traps if seeing drowned beetles makes you feel better.

If you live in an area of high beetle infestations....and I expect that Jackson, MS is one....I'd suggest that you talk to local beekeepers who've kept bees successfully for five or more years, and find out how they do it.

Good luck.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

beemandan said:


> I did try some a few years ago and they did drown shb. I also have a friend who uses a variety of shb traps....and loves them because she drowns a lot of beetles. I've noticed though, when working her hives and mine her overall infestations still seem every bit as bad as any of mine. In my opinion, if your desire is to drown shb then traps are the way to go but don't believe that they provide a significant solution.
> 
> To my thinking, keep your hives populous and queenright...especially as the season progresses and place your hives in full sun. Add traps if seeing drowned beetles makes you feel better.
> 
> ...


You are steadfast in your viewpoint. You've convinced me to not invest. Just my gut instincts I'm trusting here based on what you are saying. Populated queenright hives is where I will put my investment, instead.

You just saved me a lot of money. Thank you.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Just don't overlook the local, experienced beekeepers. My experience is from the GA piedmont....results may vary.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

beemandan said:


> Just don't overlook the local, experienced beekeepers. My experience is from the GA piedmont....results may vary.


That would be blue shop towels. And I don't think results vary just the population of beetles and mites which I believe are a function of toxicity levels. Where you find lots of insecticides made by Monsanto you have bees with weaker immune systems which make them vulnerable to SHBs and mites.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

beemandan said:


> Just don't overlook the local, experienced beekeepers. My experience is from the GA piedmont....results may vary.


It's interesting to note the deafening silence from the rest of the board on the issue of SBBs and not just this thread but also the thread you referred me to. This is disconcerting in and of itself in regard to genuine SBB effectiveness. If SBBs actually worked then everyone would use them and sing their praises. There would be no question about it.

To be thorough, I am going to very thoroughly test one SBB and see for myself what the results are. But I was actually considering a large purchase of SBB before even testing one which you have talked me out of, wisely.

I guess you would use SBBs if they worked, right? Why wouldn't you? Ditto for everyone else.


----------



## jredburn (Feb 25, 2012)

I make my SBB in two parts. The top half is just a 1/8" screen (#8 hardware cloth) with a 3/8" frame around it.
The bottom half is a piece of 1/2" plywood with a 3/8" frame around it. I line the bottom piece with a piece of heavy weight paper that is painted black and then it is coated with the glue that they use to make sticky boards. I put few 3/8" spacers on the paper to keep the hardware cloth from settling down into the glue. The beetles crawl through the mesh into the glue and die. I have mites and moths trapped in some of mine also. The paper can be taken out and thrown away when it is full, I tack it in place with a spray addesive so it comes out easily.
What makes the trap really clean out the SHB is the clear Plexiglass cover I put on top of the hive. I don't use an inner cover so the light goes right into the comb area. The light drives the beetles down out of the comb and the black at the bottom attracts them. The bees don't mind the light.
It works really well for me.
Regards
Joe


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

jredburn said:


> I make my SBB in two parts. The top half is just a 1/8" screen (#8 hardware cloth) with a 3/8" frame around it.
> The bottom half is a piece of 1/2" plywood with a 3/8" frame around it. I line the bottom piece with a piece of heavy weight paper that is painted black and then it is coated with the glue that they use to make sticky boards. I put few 3/8" spacers on the paper to keep the hardware cloth from settling down into the glue. The beetles crawl through the mesh into the glue and die. I have mites and moths trapped in some of mine also. The paper can be taken out and thrown away when it is full, I tack it in place with a spray addesive so it comes out easily.
> What makes the trap really clean out the SHB is the clear Plexiglass cover I put on top of the hive. I don't use an inner cover so the light goes right into the comb area. The light drives the beetles down out of the comb and the black at the bottom attracts them. The bees don't mind the light.
> It works really well for me.
> ...


Sounds very cool especially the plexiglass cover but I have 100 hives without any carpentry skills.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Jim Giles said:


> If SBBs actually worked


I am curious....what do you mean by worked? What is it that you've understood that SBBs do?


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

beemandan said:


> I am curious....what do you mean by worked? What is it that you've understood that SBBs do?


Practically eliminate small hive beetles and while not advertised as such if you put powdered sugar on the bees as they clean themselves they will remove Varroa mites that will fall down through the screen and into the oil.

An oil death bed for small hive beetles and Varroa mites.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Jim Giles said:


> I am considering investing in this screened bottom board to combat small hive beetles and Varroa mites.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> ...


I don't dislike them, I just don't see enough benefit to override the down sides of SBB. Just my opinion. Do what works for you.

I would not get rid of them just to go to solids. Use until they are no longer serviceable. But, I would not make or buy them for varroa or bettle control. 

cchoganjr


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

beeditch said:


> mo -- motor oil?


Mineral oil.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> I don't dislike them, I just don't see enough benefit to override the down sides of SBB. Just my opinion. Do what works for you.
> 
> I would not get rid of them just to go to solids. Use until they are no longer serviceable. But, I would not make or buy them for varroa or bettle control.
> 
> cchoganjr


Thank you!


----------



## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

I built 50 6 years ago. I don't use or reccomend them for moist humid areas.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

Kamon Reynolds said:


> I built 50 6 years ago. I don't use or reccomend them for moist humid areas.


It's mighty humid where I live.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

BTW, I searched this forum with the phrase screened bottom board and I didn't see any threads with that phrase in the title? I knew SBBs must have been discussed extensively but have not found those threads.

Also, I'm going to focus on STRONG hives but my bee-yard is up under an oak forest. I hope that's not fatal.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

The only hives I lost to SHBs(2) were in the shade. I have never lost a hive in full sun.

HTH

Rusty


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> The only hives I lost to SHBs(2) were in the shade. I have never lost a hive in full sun.
> 
> HTH
> 
> Rusty


Intuitively, sunshine makes sense but I'm stuck with my shady location.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Jim Giles said:


> BTW, I searched this forum with the phrase screened bottom board and I didn't see any threads with that phrase in the title


Where is Radar when we need him. He is the genius on references.

cchoganjr


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The most effective search for this sort of topic is the _Google _Search on the Beesource home page. :lookout:But I'm _not _encouraging anyone to compromise their principles.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

Worked like a charm:

http://www.beesource.com/search-res...11&ie=UTF-8&q=screened+bottom+board&sa=Search

Thank you.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I've never heard much discussed about SBB with respect to advantages for SHB. I suspect, if anything, that they may actually facilitate SHB getting into hives. However, if you work around SHB enough, you'll soon realize they are very resourceful creatures and screen or not they will find a way. They can surely get through the #8 mesh. SBB have been developed mostly for varroa with added benefits of ventilation during summer. Some believe that leaving them open in winter is a detriment to colony build-up. I reserve judgement on that since I've never observed a difference. However, I heard an experienced keeper suggest that leaving them open will set bees back 10-14 days in the spring. Again, not my words just something I heard. I am slowly transitioning back to solid bottom boards, simply because they are slightly easier to build. BTW, I tried the oil trays for a while, but just too much hassle to keep up with. I work with bees that are much better with varroa than 10 years ago, and SHB are easily managed with basic management practices. Those further south may tell a much different story.


----------



## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

In respect to the _control_ of SHB, a strong hive with the lid cracked open seems to work well for me. The high number of bees naturally push the hive beetles into the top of the hive. If the lid is cracked open, they push beetles out; not all of them,but most. In respect to the correlation between SHB and shade, there certainly seems to be one. My hives in the sun hardly have a problem with beetles. I can't say that for the ones in the shade. SBB's are _not_ intended to control pests in my opinion, but you can measure pest populations to _some_ degree. 
End of line.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

AstroBee said:


> I've never heard much discussed about SBB with respect to advantages for SHB. I suspect, if anything, that they may actually facilitate SHB getting into hives. However, if you work around SHB enough, you'll soon realize they are very resourceful creatures and screen or not they will find a way. They can surely get through the #8 mesh. SBB have been developed mostly for varroa with added benefits of ventilation during summer. Some believe that leaving them open in winter is a detriment to colony build-up. I reserve judgement on that since I've never observed a difference. However, I heard an experienced keeper suggest that leaving them open will set bees back 10-14 days in the spring. Again, not my words just something I heard. I am slowly transitioning back to solid bottom boards, simply because they are slightly easier to build. BTW, I tried the oil trays for a while, but just too much hassle to keep up with.


Fascinating and very illuminating. Everything you say resonates with me.



AstroBee said:


> I work with bees that are much better with varroa than 10 years ago, and SHB are easily managed with basic management practices.


I would greatly appreciate your full elaboration in regard to how best to cope with mites and beetles.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

TalonRedding said:


> In respect to the _control_ of SHB, a strong hive with the lid cracked open seems to work well for me. The high number of bees naturally push the hive beetles into the top of the hive. If the lid is cracked open, they push beetles out; not all of them,but most. In respect to the correlation between SHB and shade, there certainly seems to be one. My hives in the sun hardly have a problem with beetles. I can't say that for the ones in the shade. SBB's are _not_ intended to control pests in my opinion, but you can measure pest populations to _some_ degree.
> End of line.


When I was a kid growing up I used to watch science fiction movies about killer bees and mad scientists. Today I fantasize about the emergence of a super honey bee that can kill all pests and avoid insecticides.

I know this is as basic as it gets but what is the very best way to maintain a strong hive?

I would presume by augmenting a hive with frames of brood and bees from nucs which I plan to do and to reduce a single deep to a nuc if the single deep doesn't have enough bees in it, for example. Anything else basic in regard to strong hives?

I'm focused in on strong hives. That's my goal this year, strong hives!


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Jim Giles said:


> I would greatly appreciate your full elaboration in regard to how best to cope with mites and beetles.


The only input I can give on SHB is to maintain strong hives. I add supers one at time to control the amount of area the bees to patrol. In regards to mites, I use MAQS in combination with OA Vaporization. Those two types of treatments work for me to control mites.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

beemandan said:


> keep your hives populous and queenright


Totally agree, and I would add reduce or eliminate all stressors that you can - nutrition, heat, mites, robbing, etc. The fewer things like this that they have to deal with at a time the better. But strong and queeright are the big obvious factors.

A lot of times when a hive is reported as dead due to beetles (or wax moths) the chain of events was really something like this:

Beekeeper fails or chooses not to intervene >> Starvation or mites make the hive sick >> population drops >> robbing starts >> queen shuts down, dies or absconds >> beetles take over >> wax worms eat whatever is left.

or:

Hive swarms >> fails to make a queen >> beekeeper fails to act >> population plummets >> robbing starts >> beetles take over >> wax worms eat whatever is left.

The point being that beetles probably aren't usually what lights the fuse. Not in my yard anyway.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

There was a time when I'd see dozens of shb on an inner cover and it would upset me. Then I came to the realization that it was likely a good sign. Bees will do everything they can to drive shb away from the nest....and how much further can they go than the top of an inner cover? Quite honestly, I don't think I'd prop a cover up with the hope that my bees would chase the beetles out of the hive. If they do that....then those same beetles will probably return via the front entrance and the bees have to herd them up all over again......and sooner or later one or two will get a chance to lay their eggs in the nest....while trapped on an inner cover they can't.
Just my thinking on the subject.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

David LaFerney said:


> A lot of times when a hive is reported as dead due to beetles (or wax moths) the chain of events was really something like this


And somehow, when a bee colony is in distress shb seem to know.....quickly. I've seen a queenless but otherwise robust hive get overrun in a matter of days after losing the queen.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

snl said:


> The only input I can give on SHB is to maintain strong hives. I add supers one at time to control the amount of area the bees to patrol. In regards to mites, I use MAQS in combination with OA Vaporization. Those two types of treatments work for me to control mites.


Strong hives is a recurring theme. I now embrace it as THE key to successful beekeeping. My mind now turns to all the fundamentals of ensuring hive strength:


Queenright = A colony that contains a queen capable of laying fertile eggs and making appropriate pheromones that satisfy the workers of the hive that all is well. 

Proper bee space especially not too much bee space that bees cannot defend.

What else?


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

David LaFerney said:


> Totally agree, and I would add reduce or eliminate all stressors that you can - nutrition, heat, mites, robbing, etc. The fewer things like this that they have to deal with at a time the better. But strong and queeright are the big obvious factors.
> 
> A lot of times when a hive is reported as dead due to beetles (or wax moths) the chain of events was really something like this:
> 
> ...


Excellent. The list grows:


Queenright = A colony that contains a queen capable of laying fertile eggs and making appropriate pheromones that satisfy the workers of the hive that all is well.
Proper bee space especially not too much bee space that bees cannot defend.
Eliminate all stressors that you can - nutrition, heat, mites, robbing, etc.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

beemandan said:


> There was a time when I'd see dozens of shb on an inner cover and it would upset me. Then I came to the realization that it was likely a good sign. Bees will do everything they can to drive shb away from the nest....and how much further can they go than the top of an inner cover? Quite honestly, I don't think I'd prop a cover up with the hope that my bees would chase the beetles out of the hive. If they do that....then those same beetles will probably return via the front entrance and the bees have to herd them up all over again......and sooner or later one or two will get a chance to lay their eggs in the nest....while trapped on an inner cover they can't.
> Just my thinking on the subject.


I wonder how many of y'all are zealots when it comes to trying to kill every last beetle with your hive tool? (I am.) And do you take a deep or a super that has lots of beetles in it and knock on another hard surface to dislodge them from the hive and then proceed to kill them all with your hive tool? Is that a waste of time? It sure makes me feel good.

I was thinking one very good potential use of a screened bottom board with an oil pan is to use it as a mobile beetle grave that you could use to shake/knock the beetles onto, through the mesh wire and into the oil as you work your hives.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

beemandan said:


> And somehow, when a bee colony is in distress shb seem to know.....quickly. I've seen a queenless but otherwise robust hive get overrun in a matter of days after losing the queen.


When we're done figuring this out, we'll be saying to ourselves beetles are only a natural occurrence and actually healthy, a bee-yard buzzard if you will.

In any event, I concur that the beetle is only a symptom and not the cause. Can the same be said about mites? Is their presence only an indicator that something else is wrong with the hive, just another bee-yard buzzard like the beetle?

Until better informed I blame insecticides as the fundamental problem with bees today. Poison either kills the bee or destroys its immune system.

All this other junk, SBB, treatments, etc. are nothing but short term temporary fixes and gimmicks.

Strong Hives! Ban insecticides.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Jim Giles said:


> Can the same be said about mites? Is their presence only an indicator that something else is wrong with the hive, just another bee-yard buzzard like the beetle?


On this we would part company.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

beemandan said:


> On this we would part company.


Come on now, I insist upon complete and total agreement or I don't want to hear what you have to say. 

But seriously, what makes a strong hive invulnerable to a beetle and yet vulnerable to a mite?


----------



## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

Jim Giles said:


> Come on now, I insist upon complete and total agreement or I don't want to hear what you have to say.
> 
> But seriously, what makes a strong hive invulnerable to a beetle and yet vulnerable to a mite?


Because bees can chase the beetles away and corral them. They can't do that to mites.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

DPBsbees said:


> Because bees can chase the beetles away and corral them. They can't do that to mites.


I wonder how long the mite has been in existence and why all of sudden it has become such a problem?

In the beginning, didn't bees and mites coexist? 

What's changed?

I can think of at least one thing that has changed. The bees' environment is much more toxic on a magnitude of what, 10X more toxic, 100X more toxic, 1,000X more toxic?

I am a firm believer in simple basics and simple fundamentals and I'm very suspicious of 'mysteries.' Especially when a Monsanto de facto controls our government and the poison that now floods our environment and the honey bees environment.

Why can bees control beetles but can't control mites?


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

Where is an honest entomologist when you need one most?



> Southern beekeepers have an experienced ally joining the ranks of researchers and specialists at Mississippi State University.


Ally? Really?

Harris recently invited Monsanto to speak at the Mississippi Beekeepers Association annual convention in Tupelo. I recently emailed Harris requesting information concerning government funding for Mississippi beekeepers and got no reply.

Man not nature is the root problem. Harris refers exclusively to insecticides as 'pesticides.' Poison is the best term. Some of the biggest idiots in the world are new beekeepers, myself included. And some of the biggest BS artists in the world are entomologists.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Jim Giles said:


> I wonder how long the mite has been in existence and why all of sudden it has become such a problem?
> 
> In the beginning, didn't bees and mites coexist?
> 
> What's changed?


No. Mites and Apis ceranae co-evolve over the eons. Apis mellifera (European honey bees) have only recently been exposed.
Varroa and small hive beetles are such different parasites......there isn't any way to compare them, in my opinion. To attempt to do so, again in my opinion, is so oversimplistic that those who choose to, do so at their peril.
This is all so far afield from SBBs....that, if you really want to engage the entire spectrum of Beesourcers, you need to start a new thread specific to it. 
Good luck


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

beemandan said:


> No. Mites and Apis ceranae co-evolve over the eons. Apis mellifera (European honey bees) have only recently been exposed.


No mites in Europe? Really? Do you have any evidence to support this conclusion?



beemandan said:


> Varroa and small hive beetles are such different parasites......there isn't any way to compare them, in my opinion. To attempt to do so, again in my opinion, is so oversimplistic that those who choose to, do so at their peril.


Varroa guru Jeff Harris agrees with you. :scratch:



beemandan said:


> This is all so far afield from SBBs....that, if you really want to engage the entire spectrum of Beesourcers, you need to start a new thread specific to it.


I agree.



beemandan said:


> Good luck


Back at you.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

Moreover, those European babes have been here for a very long time, exposed to mites and yet no problem until very recently. :s


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Jim Giles said:


> Moreover, those European babes have been here for a very long time, exposed to mites and yet no problem until very recently. :s


When do you believe that European honey bees were first exposed to varroa mites?


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

beemandan said:


> When do you believe that European honey bees were first exposed to varroa mites?


Pre-mite problem.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Jim Giles said:


> Moreover, those European babes have been here for a very long time, exposed to mites and yet no problem until very recently. :s


Say, what?!?



> Introduction around the world
> 
> Early 1960s Japan, USSR
> 1960s-1970s Eastern Europe
> ...


They've only been here since '87 and they have devastated colonies since they arrived. Alabama went from 19,000 colonies down to 9,000 in a matter of 2-3 years. It wiped out most of the commercial beeks in the state. We are only now beginning to dig ourselves out of the hole caused by _varroa destructor_! I live in an area with literally NO feral bee population. Zip! The only bees I EVER see are my own Cordovans. That's what varroa did around here! 

Rusty


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Say, what?!?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting, but even accepting 1987, the mystery began only recently circa 1996, right?

BTW, what kind of bees were those I grew up with as a kid? I used to see them flying in and out of hollow trees. I recall one in particular that was in the base of a pine tree.

Honeybees were commonplace when I was growing up. I also recall a holly tree they loved and pollinated every spring in our front yard. Circa 1970.

I never see feral bees today. Never. None. Ditto for Bobwhite quail. Fire ants are blamed for their demise but I suspect poison is the same culprit.

What happened to my Southern babes?


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Jim Giles said:


> Interesting, but even accepting 1987, the mystery began only recently circa 1996, right?


Nope...the problem in North America started in 1987.



Jim Giles said:


> Honeybees were commonplace when I was growing up. I also recall a holly tree they loved and pollinated every spring in our front yard. Circa 1970.


Pre varroa.....



Jim Giles said:


> I never see feral bees today. Never. None.


That's what varroa do.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Jim Giles said:


> Honeybees were commonplace when I was growing up. I also recall a holly tree they loved and pollinated every spring in our front yard. Circa 1970.
> 
> I never see feral bees today. Never. None. Ditto for Bobwhite quail. Fire ants are blamed for their demise but I suspect poison is the same culprit.
> 
> What happened to my Southern babes?


Two words: _Varroa distructor_! It took them some time to hit every nook and cranny but they didn't leave much of anything behind except collapsed hives. I was keeping bees in '91 and I saw a good bit of the collapse as it happened in Florida. Nobody "poisoned" our beauties. Varroa sucked them dry. And then the dang beetles came along and slimed what was left!

JMO

Rusty


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

beemandan said:


> Nope...the problem in North America started in 1987.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Forget the European Italians, I grew up in the woods and honey bees were commonplace. No more. I blame poison as the reason not Varroa but I've started a thread per your suggestion here:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ticides-pesticides-killing-our-bee-population

Colonists were quick to adopt beekeeping

See in general:

https://encrypted.google.com/#q=american+revolutionaries+beekeepers

You would imply recent, whereas I see historic. The poison and the demise track, however.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Two words: _Varroa distructor_! It took them some time to hit every nook and cranny but they didn't leave much of anything behind except collapsed hives. I was keeping bees in '91 and I saw a good bit of the collapse as it happened in Florida. Nobody "poisoned" our beauties. Varroa sucked them dry. And then the dang beetles came along and slimed what was left!
> 
> JMO
> 
> Rusty


I respectfully disagree. Someone did poison them and the poison continues to flow.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Jim Giles said:


> I respectfully disagree. Someone did poison them and the poison continues to flow.


I'm not saying poisons don't affect our bees. I am saying that VARROA DESTRUCTOR affects them MORE! And because so many people had/have their heads in the sand, that destruction continues today. Blaming it all on "poison" is SIMPLISTIC. Nice, easy, and convenient to just blame the chemical companies, but the problems are BIGGER than that.

You cannot just ignore the loss of habitat, for example. You cannot ignore the proliferation of viruses that we never even heard of 50 years ago. You cannot ignore the tremendous pressure of varroa and before that tracheal mites. The bees are being slammed on all sides and chemicals are only one SMALL part of that.

But doesn't it feel good to point a finger at Monsanto and say, "It's all YOUR fault!" 

That would shield us from any responsibility for this mess and be so much easier to fix!

JMO

Rusty


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> I'm not saying poisons don't affect our bees. I am saying that VARROA DESTRUCTOR affects them MORE! And because so many people had/have their heads in the sand, that destruction continues today. Blaming it all on "poison" is SIMPLISTIC. Nice, easy, and convenient to just blame the chemical companies, but the problems are BIGGER than that.
> 
> You cannot just ignore the loss of habitat, for example. You cannot ignore the proliferation of viruses that we never even heard of 50 years ago. You cannot ignore the tremendous pressure of varroa and before that tracheal mites. The bees are being slammed on all sides and chemicals are only one SMALL part of that.
> 
> ...


I apologize for raising this issue in this thread. I've started a new thread solely dedicated to poison here:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ticides-pesticides-killing-our-bee-population

All the problems you mention are linked to poison. Poison is the root cause. Why would it be easier to fix?


----------



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I do use SBB for a reason connected to mites - to allow easy sticky board counts, which I do almost constantly, year-round. (I just pulled the boards out to do a 15-day count yesterday, even though I am in frigid northern NY.) 

But I don't see SBB as particularly effective as _treatments or cures _for a mite infestation, even though obviously some live mites must surely fall down and get stuck as I occasionally find a live mite while doing a check. I have no idea whether the rest of the dead mites I see were alive or dead before they fell through the screen. So whether they are "effective against mites" is beside the point for me, unless you count the fact that if my sticky board numbers soar suddenly then I am more likely to apply a treatment and actively kill them.

I live in an area where SHB is present, but not the scourge it is some places (or maybe so far I've just been lucky). I do occcasionally see SHB and wax moth larva under the sticky board when I pull it out. I let the birds take care of the larva and I make a point of brushing out any of their siblings from the the solid bottom.

If I had a problem with SHB, I would install an oil trap of some kind, I think.

But as the indispensible (for me) equipment needed to do almost-constant mite population assessments, I wouldn't want to go without them, even though I run them over conventional solid bottom boards. Right now in my extremely cold temps, I have the slot at the rear where the sticky board is inserted filled not only with its wooden closure-stick, but have the stick itself wrapped in closed-cell shipping foam to shut off the draft even more - though not hermetically.

Mites are mean little pests, but I can only confidently walk on the lowest-possible intervention side of beekeeping if I know, exactly and recently, what my hives' numbers are. Otherwise I think one would wind up over-treating or under-treating, depending on your personal style. It always astounds me when people tell me they treat w/o doing counts, or conversely never use a sticky or roll and form their belief on their hives' mite status from some guess, or intuition, or I don't know what. Rolls are more accurate but much more disruptive to the bees. Sticky boards are completely without any effect to the bees that I can see. I have my boards' slots open from the back of the hives so I can even pull them in the dark without rousing my girls from their well-deserved rest if I return home late on the designated test day.

It's just my take on them - I wouldn't have a hive w/o a SBB and a slot for a sticky.

Enj.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Jim Giles said:


> Some of the biggest idiots in the world are new beekeepers, myself included.



Jim...That one might come back to haunt you. Could be quote of the year, 2014.

cchoganjr


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Jim...That one might come back to haunt you. Could be quote of the year, 2014.
> 
> cchoganjr


It wouldn't be the first time.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Jim Giles said:


> Why would it be easier to fix?


Because if the problems were somebody else's fault (like Monsanto, for example), then WE wouldn't have to change--they would. We could just kick back and point fingers and feel all self-righteous instead of having to dig in and actually DO something!

JMO

Rusty


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Because if the problems were somebody else's fault (like Monsanto, for example), then WE wouldn't have to change--they would. We could just kick back and point fingers and feel all self-righteous instead of having to dig in and actually DO something!
> 
> JMO
> 
> Rusty


You suggest outing Monsanto would be easy. I see that proposition as ludicrous. Monsanto rules not the people.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> No. Mites and Apis ceranae co-evolve over the eons. Apis mellifera (European honey bees) have only recently been exposed.
> Varroa and small hive beetles are such different parasites......there isn't any way to compare them, in my opinion. To attempt to do so, again in my opinion, is so oversimplistic that those who choose to, do so at their peril.


One is an arachnid and the other an insect. Two different kinds of animals. Small hive beetle, the insect, parasitizes the equipment, destroying the honey and comb in the process of living. Whereas, Varroa destructor, the arachnid, parasitizes the pupal bee and the adult bee.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> One is an arachnid and the other an insect.


One is relatively large, the other small. One is recognized by bees as a nest invader, the other not. One is a tropical pest the other not climate limited. And the list of differences goes on.....which is why I suggested JG's attempt to compare them is oversimplistic.


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

beemandan said:


> One is relatively large, the other small. One is recognized by bees as a nest invader, the other not. One is a tropical pest the other not climate limited. And the list of differences goes on.....which is why I suggested JG's attempt to compare them is oversimplistic.


Arachnids and insects lived in nature where they ate and were eaten in BALANCE. Poison destroys that balance killing things that ensure the balance. The complex is simple and the simple is complex.

The focus should be on the impact of the poison on arachnids and insects and _everything else_. Not just insecticides but herbicides too. Man is to blame. Nature was just fine before the introduction of the poisons. 

You are the one who is over simplifying the issue not me. I would say there is one simple denominator however, greed.


----------



## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> Totally agree, and I would add reduce or eliminate all stressors that you can - nutrition, heat, mites, robbing, etc. The fewer things like this that they have to deal with at a time the better. But strong and queeright are the big obvious factors.
> 
> A lot of times when a hive is reported as dead due to beetles (or wax moths) the chain of events was really something like this:
> 
> ...


I agree with doing all you can to keep your hives healthy. Pray tell, how many of you beeks who are thumbing your nose at SBB's have lost hives this year? If you've lost ONE, you don't know all there is to know about "keeping your hive healthy", huh? I lost 2, so I certainly don't know all I should know. But I *do* have common sense.

If it weren't such bad advice, I'd find it extremely amusing that people would not attempt to use ALL available tools at their disposal to keep stressors out of the hive. Especially a tool that is NON-CHEMICAL (I don't consider the oil a chemical treatment - it only drowns the pests). Pray tell, why would you not invest in something that kills hundreds of SHB and VM over the course of a year? Sure, there will be others left in the hive, but those you kill are totally removed and not stressing your hive.

Advising against SBB is like Indiana Jones with his pistol in his holster, fighting a skilled swordsman with a sword.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

rweaver7777 said:


> If it weren't such bad advice, I'd find it extremely amusing that people would not attempt to use ALL available tools at their disposal to keep stressors out of the hive.


And because you believe that SBBs keep stressors out of the hive....it must be an irrefutable fact? 


rweaver7777 said:


> Advising against SBB is like Indiana Jones with his pistol in his holster, fighting a skilled swordsman with a sword.


And anyone who might disagree must be a total idiot.
Who could possibly argue with your logic?


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

rweaver7777 said:


> Advising against SBB is like Indiana Jones with his pistol in his holster, fighting a skilled swordsman with a sword.


rweaver7777... I would respectfully disagree. You don't settle on a product only considering one aspect of the product. If someone is asking for pros and cons, we need to give that individual all the parameters and let them decide which ones outweigh the others. There are lots of good reasons for using SBBs and there are just as many to not use them. Let the individuals make their decisions using all available information.

cchoganjr


----------



## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

If you like to build your own top and screened bottom boards, OJ Blount has come up with a unique design I have changed my 4 hives over to and have never regretted it. The designs may seem a little overkill, but if you look at the merits of each piece, you may change your mind. To see what I'm referring to, he has made 5 videos which if you watch in order, you will see the evolution of his hive setup from the first video to the last in which his wife gives you the dimensions on how to build each piece. Now, you may not want to build any or all of the pieces, but I'll bet after watching the videos, your mind will be at least thinking about it. 

http://queenscastlebeekeepersassociation.com/video.htm

The only modifications I've made to the pieces I built are:

1. I use #8 hardware cloth instead of the 5/32" holed fabricated steel for the bottom board. I didn't want to buy a sheet of the stuff and the #8 cloth was much cheaper and seems to do an adequate job allowing the SHBs to fall through.

2. I use window screen to cover the outside ventilation holes of the top feeder/ventilator board to keep bugs and other critters from coming in. 

3. At OJ's suggestion, I use hydrated lime on the steel sheet under the SBB instead of the vasoline/baby oil combination he references in some of the videos. Much cheaper and easier to clean and it does a great job killing any SHBs and mites that fall in it. 

4. I had to add a tunnel with an awning to cover the 10" landing pad as the ladies aren't very good at dodging puddles after a rain. I call it "The Barber Hoody". It works like a champ. Hopefully, it will also protect the entrance from the cold north winds.









If you have time, watch all 5 of the videos. They aren't very long and they are quite enjoyable.


----------



## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

beemandan said:


> And because you believe that SBBs keep stressors out of the hive....it must be an irrefutable fact?
> 
> And anyone who might disagree must be a total idiot.
> Who could possibly argue with your logic?


Good job of putting words in my mouth, BMD.

PS I am not advocating an open SBB, but rather the ones with an oil tray underneath. The ventilation issues go away with that configuration. I keep the trays in all the time with oil. THe oil congeals in cold weather but then that's not active season for the pests.


----------



## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

Jim Giles said:


> I am considering investing in this screened bottom board to combat small hive beetles and Varroa mites.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> ...


Jim, I use the boards you linked to, and would not go without them. After working the hives I always see a lot of beetles in the oil traps underneath (from beetle jailbreaks and bees rounding them back up). I am quite impressed with the tightness of this trap vs. ones I've had with just a metal baking sheet underneath with oil in it. Those sheets sometimes have rolled edges and places for beetles to hide (although if they're hiding there, they're not bothering the bees). With this trap there aren't many hiding places below the screen, but again, if they're below they're not in the hive.

1. Yes
2. Absolutely (for beetles). I've not had a big mite problem and don't see many. I have MAQS now and we'll see what happens when the weather is warmer now. MAQS will work with or without SBB's so that is not my purpose in using the SBB's. It's for beetles.
3. At killing what is unfortunate enough to fall in, yes. There are no other countermeasures for beetles other than smushing them with your hive tool that will KILL them. Every beetle that drowns is one that will not climb back in the hive.
4. This is where the "strength of hive" comes in. Nothing will beat a strong hive. But we all don't have strong hives all the time, do we? The SBB/Oil combo will give you a little more time to treat a weak hive, or give the bees a little better opportunity to recover from whatever is stressing them.
5. I also have entrance traps but not sure how well they work yet.
6. I'd say a large one could, but most fall through.
7. VERY slight or level.
8. I use vegetable oil. And reuse it (strain dead things out of it and reuse it).
9. I wish this company used metal screen. I think it would be better. But going back to how tight the design is, from that standpoint this one is da bomb.
10. Don't rely on only this to solve your problems. Everyone else has advocated having strong hives. I agree with that, but not the concept that you don't need a SBB if you have a strong hive and beetles. Why would you NOT try to give your bees every possible advantage?

These of course aren't viable costwise for commercial ops...

PS I don't waste my money on larval treatments (ground soaks). If the larva hit the bottom board and crawl out, they've already done their damage to the hive. It really only makes sense to try to combat the adults and keep them from laying eggs (again, strong hives with good coverage, and beetle murder - often and with every WMD in your arsenal).


----------



## Jim Giles (Mar 26, 2010)

rweaver7777 said:


> Jim, I use the boards you linked to, and would not go without them. After working the hives I always see a lot of beetles in the oil traps underneath (from beetle jailbreaks and bees rounding them back up). I am quite impressed with the tightness of this trap vs. ones I've had with just a metal baking sheet underneath with oil in it. Those sheets sometimes have rolled edges and places for beetles to hide (although if they're hiding there, they're not bothering the bees). With this trap there aren't many hiding places below the screen, but again, if they're below they're not in the hive.
> 
> 1. Yes
> 2. Absolutely (for beetles). I've not had a big mite problem and don't see many. I have MAQS now and we'll see what happens when the weather is warmer now. MAQS will work with or without SBB's so that is not my purpose in using the SBB's. It's for beetles.
> ...


Thank you, sir. I agree it's an exceptionally well made SBB. My biggest problem is the number of hives I have, i.e., 100. That's a lot of money. I'm going to test one and see what happens.


----------



## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

Jim Giles said:


> Thank you, sir. I agree it's an exceptionally well made SBB. My biggest problem is the number of hives I have, i.e., 100. That's a lot of money. I'm going to test one and see what happens.


If you like it after you've tried it, he does sell just the custom plastic pans if you can't find a baking sheet that will work for you. That is, if you want to build your own.


----------

