# Swarm and supercedure cells on same frame and split



## Slow Drone

If there is only three cells more than likely they're supercedure cells.


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## JRG13

There's no such thing as swarm or supercedure cells, there are queencells. Finding 3 cells, most likely means supercedure, keep an eye on the original queen, if you keep finding 1-2 cells, they are superceding her, and you need to let it happen.


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## roboto65

Well I never saw a queen but I saw lots of new and capped brood. So hopefully I did not mess my strong hive up by making the split.


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## Tenbears

As a general rule supersedure queen are made with eggs laid by the queen within the brood comb. Observations show that in the case of a non emergency supersedure the bees tend to use fairly new comb for queen cells. As the queen is not really involved in a supersedure other than she is the one being superseded. In the case of a swarm the queen is an active part of the process, As such she lays in cups rather than the cell being developed around an existing larva. These cells are more often on the bottom of the frame so as to leave the optimal amount of brood for the remaining colony. Although they are all queen cells, many consider the preplanned cells on the bottom of the frame swarm cells for these reasons. The overall condition of the colony often tells us more about the intent than the location of the cells. A colony with a poor brood pattern or declining numbers is more apt to be superseding their queen than one that is flourishing. Furthermore the likelihood of swarming outside of a major flow is significantly decreased. Only after considering all factors can one reasonably determine with a degree of certainty weather they are looking at queen cells intended to replace a queen for supersedure or swarming.
If two were Opened you may have a virgin queen within the hive and the split will work out fine. But I would check to be sure you have some sort of queen in the parent hive.


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## roboto65

Well the parent hive was strong in my eyes, the bottom box full and the top one about half full had honey and brood up top drones were around and workers also could not find a queen to save my life looked for a bit but as I said with my fumbling around they were pretty pissed so I limited my time LOL


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## Slow Drone

JRG13 said:


> There's no such thing as swarm or supercedure cells, there are queencells. Finding 3 cells, most likely means supercedure, keep an eye on the original queen, if you keep finding 1-2 cells, they are superceding her, and you need to let it happen.


Swarm cell, supercedure cell,and emergency cell are all common terminologies used by most beekeepers and all are queen cells.


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## JRG13

Yes they are Slow, but in this case terminology was used incorrectly. Most new beeks seem to get caught up on the details and don't understand the underlying principles of the subject at hand and thus start jumbling the terminology to fit the instance at hand. This case for example, I'm betting a few cells were located at the bottom of the frame and some in the middle. Most are taught these days, swarm cells are at the bottom of the frame and supercedure cells are in the middle, therefore the assumption is if you find both, then both swarming and supercedure most be occurring which is an incorrect notion. To use the above mentioned definitions of queencells, one should be taught how to assess the number and quality of cells and the condition of the hive before making any of the above assumptions and therefore concluding correctly whether a supercedure, swarm, or emergency replacement of the queen is occurring, and in the end the bees will be bees and do what they like which could cause a swarm based off a supercedure event which may cause some emergency cells to be built as well and thus you did have a swarm, a supercedure, and emergency queen replacement happening all at the same time which makes my whole argument moot but somewhat hilarious at the same time.


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## Slow Drone

I wouldn't consider it moot but a very valid point. I hope the OP pays attention to what you wrote good educational material for a new beek. I thought the same as you to many new beeks mistake placement of queencells not understanding what is actually going on often they make the mistake intervening in a situation that doesn't warrant it. I had been to a beekeepers association where they argue if there were both swarm cells and supercedure cells that there is something wrong with the queens genetics and should be replaced. Wished you could have been there we both would have had difficulty containing our laughter I had to walk outside for a few to regain my composer. Really wonder where these people come up with some of these ideas.


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## roboto65

I am paying attention as I am on my own do not have anybody to help persay signed up for our association in the area but my schedule does not allow me to make meetings and hard to get any help as I am not home much but would love it LOL so come here and read and learn. 

Again my second year and was looking to split anyway but may not have done it the right way according to you guys well it is what it is now. Wife called and said they are coming and going on both hives so I will keep my fingers crossed.


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## Oldtimer

Slow Drone said:


> I had been to a beekeepers association where they argue if there were both swarm cells and supercedure cells that there is something wrong with the queens genetics and should be replaced.


LOL 

I allow my hives to supersede naturally and in fact encourage it, nice way to get a good young queen without any work from me. When I see supersedure cells (mostly in fall) or swarm cells (mostly in spring), I don't see much or any difference in placement of the cells, other than where is a convenient place for the bees to build the cells depending on the conditions in the hive at that time. 

If a hive is intending to swarm there will generally be a dozen or more cells because a hive intending to swarm allows for the possibility of sending out afterswarms with some of the virgins. A hive intending to supersede will only need one queen, so will often have just one queen cell. Sometimes two, rarely 3, but almost never more than that.

So for a newby still unsure how to read everything going on in a hive, a simple rule of thumb is if there are 3 or less queen cells the hive is superseding, if there are a dozen or more the hive is planning to swarm. Both those cases are assuming there is a laying queen in the hive, which can be determined by the presence of eggs in the comb.

This is not to be confused with a queenless hive. If a queen is accidentally killed by the beekeeper the bees will immediately set about transforming a few cells with young worker larvae in them, into queen cells. In the panic to get this done, a strong queenless hive will often start quite a few queen cells. But this can be differentiated from a swarming hive by the fact it is queenless. Also, the emergency raised queen cells will be grown from the bottom of a worker cell, but a pre planned swarm or supersedure cell will be built from a pre made queen cell cup that is more on the surface of the comb.

Because swarming hives have many cells the bees fit them wherever they can including from bottom bars, hence the legend that cells on bottom bars are swarm cells. But the bees do not go "hey guys, we are going to swarm, so put all the queen cells on the bottom bars". Nor do they go "hey guys, we are going to superseded, so make sure those queen cells are in the middle of the comb". They just put them wherever suits best at the time.


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## Bowfinger

More new queen cells in some of my hives. Some in the middle some on the bottom some on the edge. I'm kind of confused. I'm guessing they are intending to swarm. Even though some of these are from splits. Even though they only have 5 or 6 frames drawn out. Everything is blooming here. Do I need to add a super or a deep when they are at 6 frames? Or is it just swarm time.


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## Oldtimer

Check if they have a laying queen, it could have been killed last time you in the hive, in which case the bees will build queen cells.


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## Levi's Bees

ok i know of a beekeeper that has 8 years under his belt i was helping him check some hives yesterday. we came a cross a hive that was booming 2 deeps packed top box 8 frames capped brood bottom box 3 frames capped brood 4 frames eggs and larva some 1 to 2 day old eggs. now we see queen cells and some open some capped. some still being made that were all over the place. and we see the queen as well. now here's were we differ what he does. i suggest to make splits. there about to swarm. he says no that he was going to cut all swarm cells and leave the supersedure cells. that they won't swarm. just replace the queen and he leaves the queen in the hive . ok either there all swarm or all superseder cells . with as many cells were there and the amount of bees. there SWARMING. u can't have both its one or the other right???? or does he know something that i don't under stand. i know the difference and the timing of the situation.


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## Oldtimer

So he actually did that, cut out the "swarm" cells and left the "supersedure" cells? How does he think that works? The queen from the supersedure cell is different to the one that would have come from the swarm cell? Meaning he thinks the bees can't swarm now?

He will find his answer in a few days time .


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## Levi's Bees

he thinks they wont swarm because the queen cells he left in the center of the frames are supersedure cells. and he took out the swarm cells at the bottom of the frames . to me with that many cells regardless of were they are and how they look its a swam cell. im talking like 15 to 20 or more in the hole hive. if its just 3 or 5 here and there. more likely near the center of the frame i would think supersedure cell. he really left the marked queen that we did see and was still laying eggs. and cut all the queen cells at the bottom of the frames he called swarm cells and left all the cells that were in the center of the frames he called supersedure cells . and thinks it wont swarm.


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## aunt betty

Feel like it needs to be posted so I'll do it.

The minute you pinch a queen the swarm cells in her hive become supercedure cells. 
IMO the cells aren't "programmed" to be supercedure or swarm cells. The newborn queen figures out what she is real quick and the bees know the game plan well before she emerges.


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## AHudd

Levi,
I would ask him if I could have any swarms that issue from that hive, since he is sure they won't. Of course that might make him mad.

My bees make a contest out of hiding QCs.

Alex


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