# Deciding When to Winterize



## Alto Beek (Jun 26, 2021)

crofter said:


> I have seen this question discussed a number of times but dont remember a clear concensus (if that ever is possible in beekeeping). Location certainly has to be considered, since many locations really need little. I am thinking of conditions like the border states and Canada where snow that stays is expected mid November and lows approaching -40.
> 
> In recent years there seems to be more emphasis on the value of insulation and even year around. Commonly it is advised that insulating early actually leads to greater stores consumption, yet people who winter indoors target a few degrees above freezing as the temperature surrounding the hives as the most efficient. This seems contradictory.
> 
> ...


I'm going to "winterize" once its too cold overnight (<45 deg) to feed syrup. I find my syrup thickens too much after that. It should be in 3 or 4 weeks at most. I use Apimaye hives which have a degree of insulation built in. I reduce to 2 deeps, remove frames from supers and put some insulation in the super for the winter. Not sure if that's the best method, but it worked last year so....

I do have to feed through the winter so I use fondant in the top feeders and some squished between the frames.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

I started to winterize my hives on Aug 15th here in Chicagoland by feeding 1.3 water volume to 1.0 sugar volume with a pollen substitute to encourage hives to raise winter bees. I finished removing rest of suppers last week.
Hives take sugar at different speed so I refill as needed. Next month I will switch to 1:2 thicker syrup.

My wooden hives use 1x or 2x 2" XPS as a top cover all year around. Poly hives will get 2" XPS on the top of already insulated original top covers.

Today I finished 5 weeks of OAE. All hives will still get one or two OAV treatments before winter.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> In recent years there seems to be more emphasis on the value of insulation and even year around. Commonly it is advised that insulating early actually leads to greater stores consumption, yet people who winter indoors target a few degrees above freezing as the temperature surrounding the hives as the most efficient. This seems contradictory.


I am not sure it is contradictory, Those that winter indoors do target a few degrees above freezing but they have thin walled hives and no noticeable upper insulation to keep the cluster heat within the hive. The bees are moved in, I believe, once the temps. drop outside and when inside they are still kept fairly cool with their hive entrances wide open.

In my highly insulated hives, 2.5" walls, 2.5" insulation on the sides and 3.5" foam on the top as well as a down pillow I am sure that the interior around the cluster was well above that target. Add to that a very reduced entrance to limit the cold air intake. So I would guess that my bees would be moving about consuming honey at quite low outside temps especially once that cavity has filled with warm air. I found that when I looked thru the clear cover board they were always unclustered, they were active and if I lifted the cover even a little bit they were out in droves as though they did not even realize that the outside air was below their flying temps. 

I winterized way too early last season, the suggestion is by Thanksgiving and we had +25C then and no noticeable drop in temps into Nov. I had MC sugar as insurance on top. It was a bugger to get the bees down one hive eventually moved down the other stayed on the sugar the better part of the winter. Because of my insulation and feed early? possibly.

I wonder if it is the sugar that encouraged them to stay at the top or the early insulation? I would like to hear from someone who insulated early with no top MC feed, did the bees cluster up, or down.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I did not have any top feed on at all last year and my insulation and venting would have been the same as yours. There were always bees visible thru the loose plastic film spaced up about 3/8" from top of the frames but they did not appear to be feeding from capped stores near the top of frames. Anything like a cluster must have been lower down. I had them fed to about 120 lbs gross for per double deep and that is way more than needed with that much insulation and no upper venting.
It sure would be nice to have similar hives on weight scales, some with early insulated and other control hives insulated much later to compare weight of stores consumption.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

East Euro idea is to winterize late.
Not only late - but deliberately cool the bees to stop excessively late brooding.
As well to force them to cluster.

One technique is to remove most all of the upper insulation to make the cluster to set lower.

I subscribe to this.

Pretty much I will not have any insulation until early December or later.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> It sure would be nice to have similar hives on weight scales, some with early insulated and other control hives insulated much later to compare weight of stores consumption.


I have 3 layens this fall instead of two. I am hesitant to switch it up too much so I believe I will take only one of the Layens and insulate it later, possibly less (on the sides for condensation). I am trying to see if I can simplify the winter preparations and have them not only use less stores but survive well.

On all the hives the feed will be placed much later. If I watch the weather I am sure I can find a window in which to pop in some sugar.

Last year I made a hook that clipped onto the frames and hooked onto a fish scale. I just lifted each frame a couple of cm. and recorded the weight. Weight of a layens was 10-12 lbs.
ETA, that is a frame of stores.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregB said:


> Not only late - but deliberately cool the bees to stop excessively late brooding.
> As well to force them to cluster.
> 
> One technique is to remove most all of the upper insulation to make the cluster to set lower.
> ...


That is interesting about holding off the insulating to prevent late or excessive brood rearing. I dont think all my summer bees have died off yet; They certainly are filling all the spaces between frames in the upper box. Almost all brood has emerged from top deeps; have not been into the bottoms in about three weeks. Dont have the feel yet for how the buckfast compare to carniolan for typical cluster size.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

"I am trying to see if I can simplify the winter preparations and have them not only use less stores but survive well." 
Ursa that is indeed boiling it down to the essence! 

I have always had too many stores carried over into the next season and combs of capped sugar syrup then become another thing to deal with. Too fixated on survival and risk avoidance I guess. I need Greg to show me how to dole out "some tough love"!


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I know in my heart that bees will not die if they only have wooden walls, multiple gaps, and no upper insulation. I know this because of the story I posted before of my 'pool hall' bees, which survived -40C with nada and only died in March when either the mites or starvation got them.

I watch those eastern European winter bee set ups and wonder if that could be repeated here, it is a much simpler system and the keepers seem to understand winter bee behaviour far better than I. Still, I have a hard time putting it to the test, chicken I guess. I know I can get bees to survive the winter, but it sure would be nice to do it without all the extra fluff and bother ( which I am certainly willing to do if it is the only way).

Every once in a while I need someone to shake me up, and tell me straight to just screw my courage to the floor and take the plunge.


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## ZooBee (Dec 11, 2020)

crofter said:


> I have seen this question discussed a number of times but dont remember a clear concensus (if that ever is possible in beekeeping). Location certainly has to be considered, since many locations really need little. I am thinking of conditions like the border states and Canada where snow that stays is expected mid November and lows approaching -40.
> 
> In recent years there seems to be more emphasis on the value of insulation and even year around. Commonly it is advised that insulating early actually leads to greater stores consumption, yet people who winter indoors target a few degrees above freezing as the temperature surrounding the hives as the most efficient. This seems contradictory.
> 
> ...


As we are in the border state of WNY, winterizing is beginning for us. We run Lyson hives for the most part with only cutouts or swarms we didn't account for ( lol ) in woodenware , 2 this year.
Wood, we won't wrap till midway through October, depending on temps.
Using Polly hives, they are always insulated and those hives have always been our strongest if we have been diligent and or lucky. I'm not sure that counts as an emphasis on year-round insulation and the bees have always had good stores going into winter. We will pull supers and start feeding this week, it was a crappy fall flow here. We don't really keep for honey production, just enough for us and our friends.
Ventilation on wood they get a quilt box with a shim so we can place pollen patties if needed.
Lyson gets one top vent with vent plug on front, the rest closed. Entrance open ( with the screen on )and bottom tray part way in. We Use the mylar sheets on top of the deep. Have not had to feed so far but considering making a shim so we can if needed.
Not knowledgeable enough to tackle the rest of your questions but Etienne Tardif might. On YT, he's in the Yukon 

On the cluster with no feed, they have always been visible, hard to tell. the brood nest has always been big in the Lysons covering both deeps. And on the left side of the hive too?? ( from behind)
Hope that answers some of your questions regarding insulation year round . I have never heard what you said about leading to greater consumption Not what we have experienced.

Zo0


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Thanks for the information on your experience with insulation and winterizing. I believe that last fall there was quite a few people putting forth support for the idea that insulation would lead to higher in hive temperatures that would put bees into a higher metabolic rate and thus consume more stores. My feeling was that there was confusion about in hive temperatures _vs_ outside weather temperatures. Graphs were presented that seemed to support the notion but it was never cleared to my satisfaction which temperature and location was referenced. 

Taken to extremes bees will expend energy regurgitating and fanning body fluids for evaporative cooling temperature control, and consume honey for its water production but that situation, I believe,would take extreme almost contrived efforts to create. That toxic condition has been noted, but is such an anomaly it is a discussion all by itself. 

From my observations the bees on frame tops under plastic film were very relaxed, no scurrying around and definitely not fanning.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

My opinion, strongly held with no proof whatsoever, is that the bees will only prepare for winter if the environment around the hive feels like winter to them. So I don't put the insulation on until it is rather late, when foraging is done. I have seen pollen going into the hive in mid December in warmer years, and ending in November in colder years. At that time I put sugar cake on top the frames and a deep or medium box filled with insulation over that. Done. 

No side insulation in the past, but this year I have 3 smaller colonies in 10-frame deeps that will winter in the deeps with filler blocks and insulation on the inside of the boxes, amount depending on how many frames of bees there are at that time. So top and 2 sides will be well-insulated, front and back just 1-inch wood. Considering putting a slab of hard foam against the outside back walls, not sure yet.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I wonder if the increased consumption found in highly insulated hives is during the cool down period rather than in the dead of winter. It is definitely very warm in a highly insulated hive if the outside temperature is above freezing.

Last year I wrapped the hives and then a full 4 weeks of warm weather hit. I ended up feeding the bees syrup way past the date I should have simply to keep them from using up the stores too early. Had the weather done what it normally does, which is cool down in the last week of Sept. I would assume the bees would have clustered up before they were wrapped and the cold weather would have kept them there, not eating up the stores.

IMO, rather than go by a date I am going to follow the weather patterns. If it is warm for the next two weeks I will put off insulating until the weather stabilizes to a constant cool period.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> I wonder if the increased consumption found in highly insulated hives is during the cool down period rather than in the dead of winter. It is definitely very warm in a highly insulated hive if the outside temperature is above freezing.


The quicker they switch to the winter mode - the better.
Excessive insulation done too early slows switching to the winter mode - causing higher consumption (especially IF the brooding continues).

No particular reason for me to insulate before December (for you maybe October or November?).


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

The problem is, the bees don't seem to care much, and it would be challenging to get good data.

Since most investment in research supports commercial beekeeping, it isn't likely someone will do the research for us.

What I do is:

Configure the hive in its winter arrangement as soon as I pull honey, to give the bees lots of time to propolize everything together, which they seem to do when the days get shorter. 

Put on feeders, and feed to refusal beginning in early September, when the weather is still warm.

Unless a hive looks in bad trouble, don't open the hives at all between early September and spring.

Begin treating with OAV in late July (after pulling supers) for 3 or 4 treatments, then again in late August or early September until freezup. You never know when you will get mite bombed.

No moisture quilts or anything like that, but usually a collar with sugar cakes just in case, and a small top opening and a small bottom opening.

Insulate with 2 inches EPS on sides, 4 inches on top, once the weather is cold and the bees aren't flying.

Insulation is a box glued together with gorilla glue and painted, which slips over the top of the hive.

That seems to work pretty well here, though I also had good wintering success in bare woodenware with migratory covers. Big colonies never seemed to go into a tight cluster, and there were always bees crawling around the top entrance.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I question whether bees will consume stores beyond what is necessary to sustain basic metabolism UNLESS it is to sustain brood rearing, comb building or flying in search of forage. Outside temperature is the controlling factor in flying, not inside temp. With Carniolan bees, incoming pollen may be more the controlling factor on continuing brood rearing. Italian bees may be harder to dissuade and require either the absense of open cells or lower inside hive temperature to curtail brooding. 

Just a suggestion, but perhaps the type of bee is a big variable that affects the benefit of different timing for winterizing. I have zero experience with the classic Italian type of bee and have had only one experience of a triple deep 5 frame colony eating thru a very heavy food supply and starving out. I was gob smacked by that one!


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Last year I insulated on November 3rd. I am near Chicago. No upper ventilation, opened screened bottom boards and R-26 top insulation. Sides R-6.

The bees in 6 frame over 6 frame setup survived on 6 deep capped frames and needed no supplemental feeding in February/March.
6 deep frames ~= 36lb of honey/sugar.

BeeMax I left on 10 frames and the bees did not finish 10 medium frames of food by spring.
10 medium frames ~= 40lb.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

My bees are in their winter configuration, like A Novice I do that in August after the supers are off. I have Carniolan mutts and they have not yet shut down brood rearing, although when I pulled one outer frame I noticed the brood was down near the bottom but still very tiny larvae are present and the last third of the comb has some brood in all stages.



GregB said:


> No particular reason for me to insulate before December (for you maybe October or November?)


I am thinking late Oct. or even Nov. forecast looks to be well above zero until Oct.14 and the nights not below zero either. 
I wonder if my 2.5" walls contribute to some of the later brood rearing.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

ursa_minor said:


> I have Carniolan mutts and they have not yet shut down brood rearing, although when I pulled one outer frame I noticed the brood was down near the bottom but still very tiny larvae are present and the last third of the comb has some brood in all stages.


What is the height of those frames? Are they the ones in the Layens configuration? 13 or so inches wide?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

To answer the OPS title.
*when I have time*, seems with extraction and canning and fall things fittin in the winterize is a challenge.
by turkey day is my target, some times I actually make it.



ursa_minor said:


> I wonder if it is the sugar that encouraged them to stay at the top or the early insulation?


I have found it is bad to add the sugar up front as the bees go up to consume it then are already in the top with stores below.
I separate the winter sugar add, to post christmas/ new year time frame.
by then the cluster has settled below the stores and if they get thru the stores the sugar is there .
It does require a different top box , so the light ones get the openable quilt top box and the normal or heavy one get the regulator top box.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> *Unless a hive looks in bad trouble,* don't open the hives at all between early September and spring.


See - how do you know IF the hive in trouble in November or in February?
Without opening?

(deleted a long rant here)

Basically, I can and will open my hives (to a various degree!) at any time of the year - for specific needs. 
This alone does not kill bees.
But other factors will kill bee.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If you have a mish mash of hives and expect to combine or triage some, then being into them late in the season is a given. If your hives have normal activity and you can assess their weight etc., it might well be better math to stay out of them. As the frames get more propolis around the frame rests and spikes of brace comb etc., you are more likely to cause damage and risk rolling a queen. I would need some well founded suspicion of problems outweighing mere curiosity, to be moving frames around now.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> If you have a mish mash of hives and expect to combine or triage some, t*hen being into them late in the season is a given.*


Not only late, but thru.
Let me start with the mini-nucs which I have to check and feed thru......... 

So the blanket statements of not touching the bees after September - they don't work in blanket fashion.

Just a simple example - some years ago I found two weak colonies side-by-side in early March (by inspection, of course).
One subsequently froze in place.
The other turned queen-less and died later.

A trivial solution was - combine them on the spot, right then and there.
Yes - in early March.
I lost both colonies because I chickened out.

Timely inspection and quick measures would have saved a line.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

So like with most every situation in life, you must do a cost/benefit analysis. If you have more well provisioned colonies than you really need anyways and you are getting lazy and less curious, you can decide that after October that the bees are on their own! Will see you again in April! 

That is starting to describe me!  If I had to go into a colony I would take precautions to reduce the common risks, but I would not undertake it lightly.

My advice to people I mentor is to take your bees into winter fat and dont be trying to get the last ounce of honey and risk crisis management late in the season.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> My bees are in their winter configuration, like A Novice I do that in August after the supers are off. I have Carniolan mutts and they have not yet shut down brood rearing, although when I pulled one outer frame I noticed the brood was down near the bottom but still very tiny larvae are present and the last third of the comb has some brood in all stages.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I yet to have problem with to many winter bees


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## birddog (May 10, 2016)

Getting back to insulating early , as a member of the silver fox club I recognize the potential for this to become mandatory some day
Odds are a combination of fall ventilation such as a well placed popsicle stick and potential adjustment of target weights should be enough
Considering you had bees this spring after last years extended fall in the northeast you should be able to work something with your experience and knowledge 😉 forget the hair splitting and chest beating of the fourm
Work on " how do I get away with insulating early " with a common sense attitude


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> To answer the OPS title.
> *when I have time*,
> .............
> GG


Exactly!


A matter of fact, I do appreciate the long-hive beekeeping in this context.
With my long hives I can attend to them *when I have time.*
Honey is not going anywhere - it will be right there in the hive. If anything, some frame re-arrangements can be done anytime during the upcoming weeks and months.

But the apples do rot!
I need to process a large batch of apples quickly rather - apple butter is much preferred to compost.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

GregB said:


> East Euro idea is to winterize late.
> Not only late - but deliberately cool the bees to stop excessively late brooding.
> As well to force them to cluster.
> 
> ...


Kind of hard for me since what little insulation I have is built into the covers. Do have 2" shims on top for rapid feeders which may reduce the effectiveness of the insulation. Left them on all winter last year... May try removing them in late December on hives with insulated covers, replace feeder with a block of foam on the ones with out.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> *Kind of hard for me since what little insulation I have is built into the covers.* Do have 2" shims on top for rapid feeders which may reduce the effectiveness of the insulation. Left them on all winter last year... May try removing them in late December on hives with insulated covers, replace feeder with a block of foam on the ones with out.


The cover insulation is negated by simply inserting 1-2 *well ventilated *boxes between the cover and the bees.
The function of insulated cover then much reduced.

A matter of fact, I am now drifting away from insulated cover due to 1)ants settling into and behind the insulation and 2)moisture building up under the insulation.
I got to completely repair one of the long hive covers - half-rotten/half-eaten by the ants.

I am switching to completely ventilated under-cover + filtering insulation over the bees (akin standard house attic).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> To answer the OPS title.
> *when I have time*,


BTW - the unfairly forgotten approaches of the peasants/farmers do work.
You get to your bees when all other crops and livestock have been attended to.

For me this also includes fall-season sports by the kids - must be attended!
Bees just gonna have to wait.
When I have time.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is a good demo YouTube just gave me.

Think about how you will want to REDUCE the times I have to touch the bees indeed. There are lots of touches to do even to complete a simple operation - apiary-wide!

(444) Culling Hives for Fall/Winter - YouTube

But what they demonstrate has little connection to little, hobby guys' reality.
No need to copy the industrial approaches without real justification.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> What is the height of those frames? Are they the ones in the Layens configuration? 13 or so inches wide?


Half are standard Layens frames 12" wide and 14" deep and half are two langs rotated 90 degrees. I ventured to move a few frames slightly to look down and of the 7 frames I would say at least 5 or 6 have brood across the bottom. There is about 8" of capped honey above and some down the sides, so it does look like they are slowing down and backfilling nicely.



jtgoral said:


> I yet to have problem with to many winter bees


Oh, the problem is not too many winter bees, I need to do my OAD just before close up and that requires a brood break just before the extreme cold hits. Eggs at this point put me right into the middle of Oct., and that is if she stops laying today. I am hoping that we don't get a winter blast that prevents a good mite treatment. I was reading on another bee site and one seasoned beekeeper, because disturbing the cluster to check for no brood is not good, uses the following parameters. Two weeks of an average of 5C, then treat with OAD on first warm day of 8-10C. 




birddog said:


> Odds are a combination of fall ventilation such as a well placed popsicle stick and potential adjustment of target weights should be enough


If that means popsicle sticks under the cover to create ventilation up here that would be a no go. Those pygmy shrews are out and about around the hives already and only one reduced entrance is what I am willing to have. With the bees still active I doubt they would try much, but one very cold night and bee heads would roll, literally.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I believe there is no question of adequate stores with the honey area you describe. I can understand wanting to see the end of brooding for mite treatment efficacy. Do you have an OA vaporizer like Johno's or Biermann's or how are you applying the OA?

I am doing multiple treatments at 3 to 5 day intervals so I do not depend at all on needing to wait for a broodless time.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

GregB said:


> See - how do you know IF the hive in trouble in November or in February?
> Without opening?
> 
> (deleted a long rant here)
> ...


I was referring to the time between when I get into winter configuration and when winter arrives.

If I see something concerning at the hive entrance I might open the hive.

But since my colonies are relatively strong, the mites have been taken care of, and they have plenty of food, there isn't much to do. If they go queenless, they are probably doomed as it is pretty late to requeen, and no point in combining as my other colonies have enough bees and don't need the disruption.

If you have a hive as described above, why would you open it?

Once it is winter, all of the above applies, except more so.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

I think the OP has a point - it depends a lot on your bees.
Some bees stop brood rearing whenever the pollen runs out, some keep laying as long as they can.
Some probably slow down when the hours of daylight get shorter.

Some winter in huge clusters, some want to winter with a softball sized cluster. It varies a lot.

Since mine are mixed mutts, I just make sure there is plenty of food for them, and don't worry about it.

One advantage is they start putting honey in the supers very early. I actually got some sugar maple honey this spring. (It isn't very good honey, but as a novelty it is interesting.)

If I had 20 hives, that would probably be more work than it is worth. with 5 hives it is easier than figuring out what is optimal.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> Do you have an OA vaporizer like Johno's or Biermann's or how are you applying the OA?


No I do OAD, but I do it as pre-winter clean up after the Apivar strips are removed the first week in Oct. I would love to do a mite check to see if the Apivar worked but tearing it all apart at such a time, risking the queen to get to the brood and to find I will need to do an OAD seems to be silly when I can just do a late OAD and call it done. If I get a low mite count IMO a late OAD will clean up most of the mites that the Apivar missed and no harm is done, a high count ends up with the same result. 
They all got a broodless OAD in mid to late July, a mite check the end of July came up with 1 in 300 bees, so they are there. Mites should be dealt with by the 10 to 15 of August in my area so in went the Apivar. Every hive has a robber screen to limit mite drift. 

With my long winter I need to open the hives periodically. Last winter I had to re-apply sugar on one hive twice. This hive had 4 frames of stores left in the spring, they got caught and when it got cold could not move to the other frames. With only 3 hives, leaving them to sort it out is not an option I care for, and as my last winter showed, no noticeable detrimental affect on the bees or cluster happened by opening the hives and having a peek. Many many bees died in my area, mites and starvation, looking into the hive at least by Jan. is a must for me.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

ursa_minor said:


> No I do OAD, but I do it as pre-winter clean up after the Apivar strips are removed the first week in Oct. I would love to do a mite check to see if the Apivar worked but tearing it all apart at such a time, risking the queen to get to the brood and to find I will need to do an OAD seems to be silly when I can just do a late OAD and call it done. If I get a low mite count IMO a late OAD will clean up most of the mites that the Apivar missed and no harm is done, a high count ends up with the same result.
> They all got a broodless OAD in mid to late July, a mite check the end of July came up with 1 in 300 bees, so they are there. Mites should be dealt with by the 10 to 15 of August in my area so in went the Apivar. Every hive has a robber screen to limit mite drift.
> 
> With my long winter I need to open the hives periodically. Last winter I had to re-apply sugar on one hive twice. This hive had 4 frames of stores left in the spring, they got caught and when it got cold could not move to the other frames. With only 3 hives, leaving them to sort it out is not an option I care for, and as my last winter showed, no noticeable detrimental affect on the bees or cluster happened by opening the hives and having a peek. Many many bees died in my area, mites and starvation, looking into the hive at least by Jan. is a must for me.


Do you have open top bars or a way for the bees to go over the top! I am surprised that with your amount of insulation that they were not mobile enough to move, but I suppose if they get locked on brood it can happen. I sure like having the ability to treat with the external bowl vaporizer without having to open the hive.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> Do you have open top bars or a way for the bees to go over the top! I am surprised that with your amount of insulation that they were not mobile enough to move, but I suppose if they get locked on brood it can happen. I sure like having the ability to treat with the external bowl vaporizer without having to open the hive.


Yup, they can get across, the top bars are not touching. I think they got locked onto the MC sugar I put on early, I wrapped really early and gave them an upper entrance only, too early. The bees settled on the sugar right as soon as I put it in and just refused to go down. When they finally did, I tracked them with a stethoscope, they settle on the couple of frames to the right of the entrance and went up again. Every time I checked through the winter they were up on the sugar.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

AR1 said:


> No side insulation in the past, but this year I have 3 smaller colonies in 10-frame deeps that will winter in the deeps with filler blocks and insulation on the inside of the boxes, amount depending on how many frames of bees there are at that time. So top and 2 sides will be well-insulated, front and back just 1-inch wood. Considering putting a slab of hard foam against the outside back walls, not sure yet.


I have 2 colonies in single deeps that just didn't get going late this year, small swarm and late July nuc.
My plan is to keep the both in the 10 frame double deep but push over frames and up to make each a 5 over 5 nuc style-- fill voids with Rockwool. Not sure if this is what you are doing but sounds like it. I don't want to fart around trying to build a double nuc box. If this works I'll just take out the Rockwool in spring, move frames and off they go still in their own deep boxes 
I have already pushed them together so they will share one side of warmth. Nights dipped to 40's F so a couple days ago I put 2" foam all around. Will increase to 4" on top come mid Oct. Just so I won't have to look later in winter I'll MC on top and cross fingers come Spring.
I'm in MA and our winter's, while nothing like Canada, has just been so wonky by coldest in mid Jan to 1st week in March lately.

I'm watching this thread very closely and hope everyone replies once spring '23 comes around


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

ursa_minor said:


> Yup, they can get across, the top bars are not touching. I think they got locked onto the MC sugar I put on early, I wrapped really early and gave them an upper entrance only, too early. The bees settled on the sugar right as soon as I put it in and just refused to go down. When they finally did, I tracked them with a stethoscope, they settle on the couple of frames to the right of the entrance and went up again. Every time I checked through the winter they were up on the sugar.


An interesting suggestion that early frame top feeding might encourage starting cluster higher. Bees dont readily move back down once it gets cold. Nice to be set up to handily add it at any time later though. I will be going in again this year with no top feed but will keep the option in my setup.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

My other hive did well, once I closed the upper entrance they moved down and settled on the farthest comb from the entrance and slowly moved over and up. They used half the sugar and most of the stores, as they should. 

My take away is that individual colonies can respond very differently to the same situation, the problem comes in when they don't follow what you expect is the norm.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

ursa_minor said:


> My other hive did well, once I closed the upper entrance they moved down and settled on the farthest comb from the entrance and slowly moved over and up. They used half the sugar and most of the stores, as they should.
> 
> My take away is that individual colonies can respond very differently to the same situation, the problem comes in when they don't follow what you expect is the norm.


I hope that is the pattern my two Layens style colonies will follow but I have the wildcard that the frames were developed and filled mostly with the frames wide way in langstroth hive bodies. They were starting to re arrange things but have not examined frames for three weeks or so and they are on their own from here on out. Going to give them a few more OA smudges yet but that is blind stabbing!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> If you have a hive as described above, why would you open it?


At the very least you want to know *where the cluster is.*
Еspecially so - later in the winter.
If you want to take that risk - up to you.

Heavy hive does not mean the bees have contact with that available food - that much is clear.
Starvation in a hive full of honey happens all too often. This can be prevented easily - but one needs to look inside to catch the issue.

OK, I will not get into anything else - nucs, long hives, wintering on dry sugar, etc.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregB said:


> At the very least you want to know *where the cluster is.*
> Еspecially so - later in the winter.
> If you want to take that risk - up to you.
> 
> ...


That is what your FLIR camera is for


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> That is what your FLIR camera is for


Which I don't have.
Remember, I am dirt cheap?

Besides that FLIR does help when you know that the bees up top anyway - eating that dry sugar.
You must look to know - should you add more or not.

In addition, I can see utility of the FLIR when wintering in 2-3 boxes - it may clearly show the bees in the lower box - meaning, you have a box of food above them - meaning you have nothing to worry about for the next N weeks/months.

FLIR has* less utility* when you keep the bees in a *single tier/single box.*

YES - it will tell if the bees are alive.
NO - it will not tell you if they will run out of food next week OR they will loose contact with food next week (which is kind of important, eh?).


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## SFHoneyBee (5 mo ago)

jtgoral said:


> I started to winterize my hives on Aug 15th here in Chicagoland by feeding 1.3 water volume to 1.0 sugar volume with a pollen substitute to encourage hives to raise winter bees. I finished removing rest of suppers last week.
> Hives take sugar at different speed so I refill as needed. Next month I will switch to 1:2 thicker syrup.
> 
> My wooden hives use 1x or 2x 2" XPS as a top cover all year around. Poly hives will get 2" XPS on the top of already insulated original top covers.
> ...


Just curious— what was your OAE does per hive? I had some friends do 48 grams (Following Randy Oliver’s method with Maxi-mixer pads)—and they felt it pissed off/stressed the bees out; as evidenced by “increased aggression on the bees part for about the first 3 weeks of treatment”…. 
I did OAE- but at a lower dose of 30 grams- per hive (Two 8-Frame deeps)— I didn’t feel as tho the bees responded negatively. I’m on week 3 right now.
It’s my Plan to get some OAV at “light doses in there also” when I see a decreased mite drop on my Inspection Boards… maybe next week (week 4 or 5)
I was curious what your OAV program might look like ⁉👌


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

SFHoneyBee said:


> Just curious— what was your OAE does per hive? I had some friends do 48 grams (Following Randy Oliver’s method with Maxi-mixer pads)—and they felt it pissed off/stressed the bees out; as evidenced by “increased aggression on the bees part for about the first 3 weeks of treatment”….
> I did OAE- but at a lower dose of 30 grams- per hive (Two 8-Frame deeps)— I didn’t feel as tho the bees responded negatively. I’m on week 3 right now.
> It’s my Plan to get some OAV at “light doses in there also” when I see a decreased mite drop on my Inspection Boards… maybe next week (week 4 or 5)
> I was curious what your OAV program might look like ⁉👌


I used this year 1:1 ratio of OXA and glycerine per Oliver's recipe. I soaked 1"x16" cardboard stripes in it and placed on every second frame of the brood box so that the cardboard was in the seam on both sides of the frame. The solution was like a paste when I was removing stripes.

Last year I used 600 grams of OXA in 1L of glycerine ( 0.6:1 ratio) and it was good, too. The solution was liquid when I was removing stripes.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If the absorbent pad is still wet to the touch when installed the bees really shun it. First time I used it it chased a lot of bees out to beard on the outside of the hives. Since then I have not saturated them as much and backed off a bit on the glycerine. The bees start chewing on them quicker and thus get more spread around. I think more is not necessarily better. I really havent done any controlled tests and have pretty low mite pressure so dont put a lot of faith in my findings. There are hundreds of pages of posts on peoples experience with OAE on the New Zealand bee forum. They have been using it for a number of years.


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## SFHoneyBee (5 mo ago)

jtgoral said:


> I used this year 1:1 ratio of OXA and glycerine per Oliver's recipe. I soaked 1"x16" cardboard stripes in it and placed on every second frame of the brood box so that the cardboard was in the seam on both sides of the frame. The solution was like a paste when I was removing stripes.
> 
> Last year I used 600 grams of OXA in 1L of glycerine ( 0.6:1 ratio) and it was good, too. The solution was liquid when I was removing stripes.


Did you “make your own Cardboard strips— from “actual cardboard 😂—or did you get “the New Zealand Cardboard strips(?) 
I used Oliver’s recipe-and sized it down the my hive sized needs— I currently have 2-double deeps and 1 single deep- A Guy in my bee club bought the Maxi-mizer pads…Minimum pack size of 100 16x19 inches I think… so he was selling some of the individual pads….he’d clearly never use those up in a lifetime as a Backyard Beekeeper.


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## SFHoneyBee (5 mo ago)

crofter said:


> If the absorbent pad is still wet to the touch when installed the bees really shun it. First time I used it it chased a lot of bees out to beard on the outside of the hives. Since then I have not saturated them as much and backed off a bit on the glycerine. The bees start chewing on them quicker and thus get more spread around. I think more is not necessarily better. I really havent done any controlled tests and have pretty low mite pressure so dont put a lot of faith in my findings. There are hundreds of pages of posts on peoples experience with OAE on the New Zealand bee forum. They have been using it for a number of years.


I might take a peek over on the New Zealand bee forum.. thanks for the heads up…


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

SFHoneyBee said:


> Did you “make your own Cardboard strips— from “actual cardboard 😂—or did you get “the New Zealand Cardboard strips(?)
> I used Oliver’s recipe-and sized it down the my hive sized needs— I currently have 2-double deeps and 1 single deep- A Guy in my bee club bought the Maxi-mizer pads…Minimum pack size of 100 16x19 inches I think… so he was selling some of the individual pads….he’d clearly never use those up in a lifetime as a Backyard Beekeeper.


I bought a yellowish gray paper cardboard (~1.5 mm thick) at HobbyLobby. I split it in half and then cut into 1in stripes. I used half of them last year and rest this tear. I was inspired by this video:





He does it every year.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Do a google search on Bristol board. That is what it is called in Canada, may have a different name in US. Looks like what the fellow is using in the YouTube link above.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

crofter said:


> Do a google search on Bristol board. That is what it is called in Canada, may have a different name in US. Looks like what the fellow is using in the YouTube link above.


It is called_ brystol_ in Polish, too


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

GregB said:


> At the very least you want to know *where the cluster is.*
> Еspecially so - later in the winter.
> If you want to take that risk - up to you.
> 
> ...


Noted.

I try to have good sized colonies, and make sure they have plenty of food.

I haven't ever lost a colony to starvation as far as I know. I did lose one rather small colony early in the winter 3 or 4 years ago. I think they never had much chance though. Too small for the size of the cavity. Not sure what killed them.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If the hive is full of honey and the bees put it there, I would bet money that they will be in contact with food. People do go messing around with reversing boxes late season and disrupt normal food and brood distribution, but if the hive has been undisturbed and is heavy with feed I would not feel the need to go exploring.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A sufficiently strong and healthy colony with the food above the head should be OK most of the time.

But as soon as you begin experimenting with unconventional stuff and/or just only learning your way around - you just may not have the "a sufficiently strong and healthy colony with the food above the head".

As for me the latter is the usual case.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregB said:


> A sufficiently strong and healthy colony with the food above the head should be OK most of the time.
> *
> "But as soon as you begin experimenting with unconventional stuff and/or just only learning your way around - you just may not have the "a sufficiently strong and healthy colony with the food above the head"*.


With that caveat added, I agree.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

This video I posted before.
Northern Urals (Russia).
Wintering outside.
6+ months (temps down to -40C).
Hive inside hive setup on the Dadant frame.

Until the temps are steadily below 0C - he does not insulate.
Rather he cools them down for proper cluster formation.

Jump to 3:30 to skip most of the talk.

(458) РАЗУМНАЯ СИСТЕМА УТЕПЛЕНИЯ ПЧЕЛ НА ЗИМУ ДЛЯ НАЧИНАЮЩИХ ПЧЕЛОВОДОВ 35-21 - YouTube


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> This video I posted before.
> Northern Urals (Russia).
> Wintering outside.
> 6+ months (temps down to -40C).
> ...


Around 11:50 he shows a German poly BienenHaus hive. He does nothing to it for winter as I understand. Except of closing upper vents under the top cover. He leaves one open to close it later.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> Around 11:50 he shows a German poly BienenHaus hive. He does nothing to it for winter as I understand. Except of closing upper vents under the top cover. He leaves one open to close it later.


Yes.
Ventilated bottom.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Interesting that the ends are not insulated.

Top and side insulation only.

Compared to insulated all sides it isn't very well insulated.

However, it pretty clearly works.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> Interesting that the ends are not insulated.
> 
> Top and side insulation only.
> 
> ...


Pretty thick wood.
He has some talk about it.

But still - the fundamental idea is NOT to just indiscriminately insulate (which is a popular idea on the BS now).

Rather - to insulate at the right time only - meaning, when you want the bees to *raise brood, *then you insulate.

If you want to bees to winter efficiently and without high wear - you want your bees *cool *(NOT hot, NOT cold).

So the method in that video allows adding or removing insulation as you see fit - UNLIKE the hives where the insulation is built-in (e.g. poly hives).


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> ...
> 
> Rather - to insulate at the right time only - meaning, when you want the bees to *raise brood, *then you insulate.
> 
> ...


You want the bees to rise the brood the whole summer, so you insulate, right?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> You want the bees to rise the brood the whole summer, so you insulate, right?


Summer is irrelevant, pretty much.

We are talking of the most critical brood time - Feb through May - which is part of the successful wintering (in the context of "when to winterize").


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

His blankets go down the sides so there is some side insulation. I also noticed that at the end he mentioned that he was not going to put on his pillows yet, till it got to -10C or -15C, and that he started this process when daytime temps were around -5C. Something I am seriously going to try this fall.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> Summer is irrelevant, pretty much.
> 
> We are talking of the most critical brood time - Feb through May - which is part of the successful wintering (in the context of "when to winterize").


I think* insulation is great in summer*. Bees instead of bringing water to cool the hive down when rearing brood, bring nectar and you get more honey, right?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> I think* insulation is great in summer*. Bees instead of bringing water to cool the hive down when rearing brood, bring nectar and you get more honey, right?


OR - keep your bees in shade.
My SOP.

People get fixated on issues.
What about some flex?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> I also noticed that at the end he mentioned that he was not going to put on his pillows yet, till it got to -10C or -15C,


Yes.
Too warm is not good either.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> OR - keep your bees in shade.
> My SOP.
> 
> People get fixated on issues.
> What about some flex?


Agree. To me it is just less work to keep bees all year around in well insulated poly hive, so I can spend saved time for homebrewing...or whatever other hobbies I have.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> Agree. To me it is just less work to keep bees all year around in well insulated poly hive, so I can spend saved time for homebrewing...or whatever other hobbies I have.


Sure - summer insulation works too.
Especially if you have no choice - it happens.
I only take shady spots - my location pre-req.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> Sure - summer insulation works too.
> Especially if you have no choice - it happens.
> I only take shady spots - my location pre-req.


So with poly insulated hive I can keep it in a sunny or a shady spot without extra work and I do not have to spend time for adding insulation after fall and remove it early spring..... I go for it.


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## SFHoneyBee (5 mo ago)

jtgoral said:


> I bought a yellowish gray paper cardboard (~1.5 mm thick) at HobbyLobby. I split it in half and then cut into 1in stripes. I used half of them last year and rest this tear. I was inspired by this video:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know what he’s gonna do(?) —what language please?


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

SFHoneyBee said:


> I know what he’s gonna do(?) —what language please?


It is in Polish, sorry.

Recipe in English:


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