# Hybrid TBH in Florida



## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Morning All!

Well I built me a hybrid TBH. Glued, screwed, caulked and painted. My wife said she wished I would make stuff for the home as nice as this box came out!!

Anyway, I made it to fit standard frame dimensions, but holding only 8 frames. I agree with Mr M. Bush, ten honey filled frames are just too heavy to lug! The Bars are 1.25 inches wide, 1 inch deep at the V, and I ripped a groove for beeswax at the tip of the V.

BTW I built it completely out of scrap wood from a construction site. I asked the foreman for it, and though they do not allow salvage, he pretty much pointed out what I could take. I'll have to drop off a bottle of my son's honey for him.

I'm building several more to my specs and then I'm going to try a long hive body, somewhere along 20-24 frames for a stationary unit.

Thanks,
Albert


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Sounds good, post some pictures!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I ripped a groove for beeswax at the tip of the V.

I don't think you needed the groove. I've had good luck with just a wood bevel.

>holding only 8 frames. 

Do you plan to use this as a vertical top bar hive? With more boxes on top? I have thought of experimenting with one, but I'm not sure how well it will work that way. The two things I'm concerned about are communication between the boxes and attachments on the bottom of the comb to the top bars below. If nothing else it will make a great box to start them in, do splits in, catch swarms in etc.

>ten honey filled frames are just too heavy to lug! 

Most TBHs are horizontal and never lifted.


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Mr. Bush,

Since my son and I are new to this, and we don't have any preconceived notions to contend with, I thought why not try different things.

So with that in mind, I made the box the way I did. The thought did occur to me, just as it did you, that there was no way for the bees to get from one box to the next. So after careful deliberation, renumeration, and mental gyration, I thought I would route off a 3/16th inch from the outside middle edges of each bar. That will give me the 3/8th necessary for the bees.

I hadn't thought about the bottoms though... I'll have to give it more thought.

I am giving some thought to a large horizontal one. But I think that will wait for next season. I have enough to do with the two hives we have!

BTW I measured the cells in several combs and they averaged 4.7 mm (.185 inch). The variences where from 5.2mm (.205 inch) to 4.57mm (.180 inch). It appears that these bees have regressed on there own over time. 

These bees in particular came from an abandoned hive. It has been in the same spot so long that the bottom brood box was disintergrated and had collapsed upon itself. The upper boxes listed like the Leaning Tower of Piza. The rancher (on who's land these where) didn't know how the boxes got there in the first place and allowed us to save the bees. He had planned on burning them in place. It was luck that we were in the feed store at the same time he was. I moved them one box at a time with cardboard and lots of duct tape! It wasn't easy...

Last but not least I sure would like to post some pictures. Is there a sticky that tells you how?

Thanks!
Albert


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Albert

Go to photobucket - it is free - then post a link to that.

TBH'ing is all about experimenting and doing what you want to, so by all means go for it.

You may have some real good survivor bees there!


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Ok... lets see if this works

Hybrid TBH 

Close-up of top bar

Thanks Dave!

I'll take a complete picture of the hive tommorrow.

Thanks!
Albert


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Let's try that again...

Hybrid TBH 

Close-up 

Albert


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

-The two things I'm concerned about are communication between the boxes and attachments 
on the bottom of the comb to the top bars below.
reply,
i think this is in referance to using top bars vertically. 
i supered a tbh this year and it worked well. when i just left a bar out for comunication the bees filled it with wonky comb just like was predicted by the list members. when i removed an end spacer for communication the bees didn't burr comb much. i also had a top entrance to the super.
i didn't notice the bees bringing the comb down to the top of the bottom bars. i'm figuring they built down and ran into a solid bottom just like they would on any hive bottom and left their bee space. if below had been lang frames with comunication between them they may have just turned it into one long comb. i'll check this coming year.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Nice work on the top bars Albert. Thanks for posting.

As I understand it you are going to add a super above with space left between middle bars?

Two concerns about that. First - don't do it too soon. You have a nice tight little home there, perfect for a new package IMO. If you expand the space too soon they won't be able to manage it.

So I would wait until they have drawn out their brood nest before you add another box. It is sometimes hard to get the comb straight at first.

Second, like Stan said, they like to fill in space. Even bee space if they have no need to go up there. So if you have a top entrance and leave a bar out at the end you may be better off. 

But try it and see what you find!


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## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

Interesting top bars, have not seen beveled 45s with a center groove before.

My current method to build bars is all tablesaw: cut the bars to size, rip cut the 1/8" center groove and crosscut with a dado to trim the ends.

The bees seem to build straighter with beveled bars and there is less side surface area to propolize between bars. The jig I built to bevel bars works well enough, but it does not feel as comfortable or as safe as making the grooved bars. That's why most of my bars are grooved. 

I'm curious how you cut the bevels, presumably they were the last step in your process.


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Jailpea,

well lets see how I went about it... I think there is a better order to this now that I have done it but this is the way I did it the first time.

I built my box first, then I took some two by fours and cut them to length. I ripped them to 1 inch depth and then ripped them again to 1 1/4 width.
Next I set the blade to 45deg. By trial and error I got it so that it left a 1/4 flat on the bottom. (Don't forget to stand to one side and use a push stick.)Did one side then the other.

Next I cut the dados on each end. cleaned it up with a sharp pocket knife. And finaly ran them through to cut a saw kerf on the bottom.

Next time I will rip first, then cut the saw kerf, dado, finishing with the 45deg cuts.

If you don't like the table saw too much, (I don't), those 45s are nerve racking. Use one push stick to push it through and another to hold it down as it crosses the axis of the blade.


Thats how I did it!
Thanks,
Albert


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> those 45s are nerve racking. 

Try a search on here for "sled". Someone has pictures of one on their web site for cutting them with no significant danger to the fingers. You put the bar in the sled and run the sled through the table saw.


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

MB,
I should have made one the second I knew I was going to cut those 45s... And now I am going to seeing that I have to make a mess of them LOL!!!

Thanks,
Albert


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## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

> > those 45s are nerve racking.

> Try a search on here for "sled". Someone has 
> pictures of one on their web site for cutting them
> with no significant danger to the fingers. You 
> put the bar in the sled and run the sled through 
> the table saw.

The risk of losing a digit is always on my mind, and the sled at http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/frames/sled4.jpg makes me nervous when I see where the fingers are. 

2/3 of the way through the second bevel most of the horizontal support is 1/4"-3/8" on the bottom and 3/8" on the side. If there is any slop at all, the topbar could tilt and your finger(s) slip into the gap. 

The blade tips should be under the sled but even so. When it comes to what happens if a topbar should slip my mind reels with negative consequences.

My jig keeps the back of the bar on the table while cutting the bevels, and that exposes the blade. The protective cover over the top makes it unwieldy and something uncomfortable to use has safety issues. 

JP


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Another option for the bevel is to use a router / router table set up with a fence.

Albert I have been there and done that with the push stick and I know what you mean. That is the way to do it.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Just looked at the sled pic. I always thought I was the only one that piled all unused tools, tapes, and scraps on top of any unused surface including the back of the saw. Feels good not to be a loner.


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Hey fellows,

I have a nice router table, but the cost of bits, even though I resharpen them myself, keeps me from using it to hog off a lot of material.

I was lazy that day and didn't design a sled to hold the bars. I built one today with 1/4" luan (salvaged!) and some pallet wood.

I rethought the whole Hybrid idea and have to agree with the learned ones; that is that the bees will build their comb down to the tops of the bars. So I decided that I will have to build a long top bar hive. But having said that, it occured to me that you could use frames in a "super", with a gap in the top bars below in case you needed comb in a frame.

I am going to build a dozen of those eight frame boxes though, I like the way it looks! I drilled a small hole in each corner, counter sunk the ones on the bottom, and drove pins (cut off 16d nails) in each top one to act as registration pegs for the tops. They only stick up an 8th or so. I like the idea of getting the boxes a little more stable by locking them together slightly.

On the TBHs, a question, are there dimensions that have been found to be better than others? 

Thanks,
Albert


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Hi Albert

I am the same way with not using the router, just thougnt I would throw it out there for those who wisely fear running short narrow stock through a 45 deg. table saw.

Being that you're in Fla. you probably have more flexibility. I made mine too small I think.

For my money Dennis our moderator has come up with the best size. Wyoming Bee Wrangling

[ November 30, 2006, 06:13 AM: Message edited by: BerkeyDavid ]


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

-Second, like Stan said, they like to fill in space. Even bee space if they have no need to go up there. So if you have a top entrance and leave a bar out at the end you may be better off.
reply,
the above statement reads leave a bar out at the end. that's to much space and the bees will build wonky comb. leave out a "bush spacer", 3/8" at the end.

-I rethought the whole Hybrid idea and have to agree with the learned ones; that is that the bees will build their comb down to the tops of the bars.
reply,
i've experimented with supering tbh's and haven't come to that conclusion at all. i've supered above top bars and above a combination of bars and frames and no bottom attachment. i inspect the hives quite often. if left alone for a long time who knows what they would do, but then i've seen that in lang hives left for a long time too.


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Stan,
thats true as I have learned recently. We rescued several hives and the brood boxes in particular were inseperable on site! Ultimately had to saw between the two boxes to get them apart.

After reviewing Wyoming's Bee Wrangleing web site I found his mothod of supering his hives, which I amd going to emulate.

Thanks,
Albert


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