# Hive split with queen excluder?



## nater37 (Aug 15, 2013)

If you did that there would be no reason to buy the queen.. Cause the nurse bees will be separate from original queen so they they will build a queen cell in most cases


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## Hive Onthehill (Jun 11, 2011)

The new queen will be laying a few weeks earlier though wouldn't she? And there is better chance of a successful split? Or am I waisting the $25. The earlier I can establish them the better I feel as I would like to try to make a few increases if possible this year to be ready for over wintering. With that said how late into the summer is the latest I can consider making a split in the northeast?


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

I only know what I have read, but I believe that if you assemble your nuc onto a bottom board, and cover it up for an hour, the bees will know they are queenless. They should then be happy to see a new queen.
Bill


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

nater37 said:


> Cause the nurse bees will be separate from original queen so they they will build a queen cell in most cases


I find that happening about 25% of the time, when I elevate brood above an excluder.


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

I make most of my splits using the technique you describe EXCEPT that I only leave the frames above the excluder for an hour or two - just long enough for nurse bees to move up and cover the brood.


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

Hive, I think that is a great way to get your split ready for the new queen. And shake a few more bees into the split after you take it off the mother hive a couple of hours before installing the new queen. I don't have much experience installing new mated queens but I do a very similar process when I make up splits using queen cells.


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## Hive Onthehill (Jun 11, 2011)

Thanks, my other question to this is will the bees from the other hives I have around them(4 total, 2 new packaged hives and the two over wintered hives, one of which would be the donor hive) rob this split or should they be able to protect it? And is there anything I can do to help this from happening? Or should I move it to a new location?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Just don't put a syrup feeder on them, make them up with frame of stores instead. Robbing happens the most on queenless splits that are being fed.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> I find that happening about 25% of the time, when I elevate brood above an excluder.


So given your excluder trick in making up nucs- you just cut the queen cell if they make it when you pull the split yes?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I've never left them on the excluder so long that it matters. Just over night.


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## Hive Onthehill (Jun 11, 2011)

So if Tuesday is the pickup day then Monday is the day to manipulate... Also if the donor hive is a medium over a deep is there any preference on which box to pull from? I have equipment for both so I could go either way.

Thank you.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

Hive Onthehill said:


> Can I pull frames from the brood chamber of an over wintered hive with various eggs and larvae plus a pollen and a honey frame and put it above in a new box with a queen excluder below it three days before I pick up a new queen and then simply place that on a new bottom board next to the original hive the day I get the queen an put her in to be released as I would when I put a new queen it a newly packaged hive?


You will have more success introducing a new queen if the colony is hopelessly queenless for a day or two, and that won't happen with a queen excluder, because the bees can still smell the old queen. It's quite possible they will kill the new queen.
I would move your old hive a few feet away and set up a new hive with a few frames of brood, honey and pollen in the old location. That way, the foragers will return to the old location, find out they have no queen, and be ready to acceot the new one more easily. That way, you introduce the queen into a strong colony with lots of bees, and the old queen will repopulate her hive very quickly too.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Hive Onthehill said:


> Can I pull frames from the brood chamber of an over wintered hive with various eggs and larvae plus a pollen and a honey frame and put it above in a new box with a queen excluder below it three days before I pick up a new queen and then simply place that on a new bottom board next to the original hive the day I get the queen an put her in to be released as I would when I put a new queen it a newly packaged hive?


Better to wait until you have the queen before you do anything.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

Hive Onthehill said:


> So if Tuesday is the pickup day then Monday is the day to manipulate... Also if the donor hive is a medium over a deep is there any preference on which box to pull from? I have equipment for both so I could go either way.
> 
> Thank you.



You could even do it Sunday.
My preference is to use all deeps for brood boxes, mainly because if you ever want to buy or sell nucs, they are mostly on deep frames. I don't think I would want to mix sizes either, because it makes it harder to move things around. 
Our weather is similar, and I like to send them into Winter with 2 full deeps so I'm sure they won't starve. I haven't had to feed this Spring either.


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## Hive Onthehill (Jun 11, 2011)

Thanks for the tips, after talking to them I have a neighbor that wants a hive at their house so this one will probably go there, also when I started out originally I had a garden hive with all mediums and have a lot of stuff sitting idle that's why I was wondering about that. But yes I've since moved to deeps myself but most of that equipment will be accounted for this summer already in my yard. 

I will be building more but at this point in the season I'm trying use what I have the most effectively I can. What I'm really hoping for is this weather to break as we had snow yesterday....


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Better to wait until you have the queen before you do anything.


Michael, as long as he removes any queen cells before placing the new split on it's own bottom board, what would be the benefit of waiting until he has the queen? I'm thinking that HiveOntheHill is doing it like this since it's an out apiary for him and making it up three days ahead of time gets it ready to just insert the caged queen right away when he comes back with the queen. Or would the workers/drones in the split not quickly act as a queenless hive since they were taken off of a queen right hive (although above an excluder) and pose a danger to the introduced/caged queen?

The reason I am asking is because my splits have mostly been made up with queen cells and I want to learn more about using mated queens for splits. But, I'd be using them in an out apiary where I like to go there, get the work done, and not have to wait around for anything or come back later that day. And as a side question.................if I'm making late spring splits with mated queens out of production hives do you think I'd have the same robbing issue that is typical with splits made up with queen cells going into a dearth (our July/Aug months)? My intent is to make up splits out of my production hives in late spring/early summer but use mated queens to reduce the chances of failure. I need some thoughts on this from experienced beekeepers.


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## Hive Onthehill (Jun 11, 2011)

So as I'm rereading this and playing it through my head, now that I know that I'm going to move this one to a new location about a mile to a mile and a half away I guess I'm wondering if I should make the split a day early in the mid afternoon and then move it to the new location at dusk when they are all settled in or does that really matter?
Also when I move a hive to a new location it's simply putting on a flat inner cover that they can't get out of and putting screen in the entrance that they can't get out of and replacing the inner cover and removing screen once it's on site and in place?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

RichardsonTX said:


> Michael, as long as he removes any queen cells before placing the new split on it's own bottom board, what would be the benefit of waiting until he has the queen?


Delays in shipping. Lost queens in shipping. Dead queens in shipping. And then you have to disturb the little colony by cutting queen cells...don't miss any!


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