# small cell packages& messed up comb



## scottybee (Feb 23, 2003)

Installed 2 packages last week , drawing comb but im getting patches of drone size comb cells right in the middle of every frame . looks to me they are want to ajust to get back on track with the 4.9 foundation.I paid a premium for the packages of small cell bees, should this be? To me if they are fully regressed they should draw good comb. waddaya think guys do i have a right to complain? scott


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## clintonbemrose (Oct 23, 2001)

Did you put in 4.9 foundation?
Clint

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Clinton Bemrose
just South of Lansing Michigan


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Buckeye was selling their small cell for the same price as the large cell. I don't know much about how they define small cell.

Any bees (small cell or otherwise) will build some drone comb where they want it. What size are the worker brood cells they are buidling?


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

i put a undrawn frame of 4.9 into a plain domestic hive just to see what they would do 3 days later it is all drawn out i did not measure it yet but right in the middle is a patch of drone cells no more than 20 just kinda wondering why they did this?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They wanted some drones.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Scottybee,

Bees will be bees. They build what they want, where they want it and when they need it. The idea that bees will prefer or build just one size worker cell, whether large or small doesn't match reality.

Don't complain about the bees. They are just doing what all bees do genetically, whether they are raised on large or small cell comb.

From what I now know, I wouldn't pay a premium for 'small cell bees' alone. The other traits are much more important.

Rearing queens using pesticide free hives is very important. Small cell beekeeping makes that possible. Queens/drones reared in a pesticide free hive will behave and last like queens did 30 years ago. 

Queens/drones reared in pesticide contaiminated hives are lucky to last one season.

I know lots of people are trying hard to get off the strips. And also that much is being said about the positive aspects of small cell in some circles. But small cell also has a downside and you are beginning to experience some of that. Watch what those bees do and then manage your hives to cooperate with their natural behavior. If what you expect doesn't happen, do a reality check on your assumptions.

My website has a few pages detailing my small cell experience and some of the surprises that forced me to check out my assumptions.
http://fire.prohosting.com/topbargu/ 

Regards
Dennis


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## scottybee (Feb 23, 2003)

sorry I havent got back sooner,computer trouble.<Did you put in 4.9 foundation> Yes I did use 4.9 foundation. <What size are the worker brood cells they are buidling?>

No I have not measured cell size yet, hope to this weekend I will post results then.
Thanks for all the replies
scott


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## scottybee (Feb 23, 2003)

WOW! What a web site dennis! Very interesting findings.That explains alot to me why the bees are doing what they are doing
I Have been considering letting the bees draw what they want in standard langworthhives. Starting them on smallcell starter strips.Would crosswire the frames, just forgo the foundation {except for the strips}.Has anyone tried this?
scott


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I run all mediums. I haven't used foundation in a while now. I'm mostly buying ungrooved top and bottom bar frames from Walter T. Kelly and cutting a bevel on the bottom of the top bar. I have made blank starter strips and used them in standard frames and I've made small cell starter strips and used them in standard frames. I've also put standard frames with no foundation between drawn frames and let them build comb in it. All of these work most of the time. Once in a while, of course, the bees decide to do something strange with them.









I don't use any wire. Never really did except on full sheets of deep foundation and then just an "X" and not embedded.


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## scottybee (Feb 23, 2003)

Thanks Michael, I am going to try the starter strips. Any trick I can use to get them to move up when supering?Usually Iput in one drawn frame to intice them up.
scott


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Why not conintue to use one drawn frame? Or don't worry about it. They will move up when they see the need to.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

scotty,
I got my packages from Buckeye as well. I didn't use foundation at all and they ALSO build drone comb smack dab in the middle of the nest. But if you pay close attention you will notice that they haven't built a whole lot of it. Somewhere in the 10-15% range which is normal. After your brood cycle is will under way you could always cull a frame here and there and let them draw some more, but in all honestly I would leave it alone if you are seeing the same patterns that I am. Most of the combs they have built are smaller than 5.4, most being 5.1ish, some being a bit smaller than 4.9mm too. A couple of bees so far have been so tiny they were half the size of their sisters.

Starter strips also helps explain why they built some drone comb. Using only strips allows them to build some of what they want without having to rework foundation to get it.

Buying small cell packages just means the bees were shaken from a small cell beehive, but even in a small cell beehive there are some larger bees. By starting with a small cell pacakge you are simply one step ahead in the regression process. Regression work is still required where you cull combs until you get most of them uniformly at 4.9mm or smaller. Smaller bees seem to have an easier time drawing smaller cells, though it seems that if you let large cell bees and small cell bees build their own comb that they will both build a rough approximation of the same thing. A mix of all cell sizes in certain usage patterns. Most of my natural comb is about 5.1mm.

It also seems that bees will build small cell comb easier in the spring, and will tend to try and build larger combs in late summer and fall. I don't know how much truth there is to this statement, because I am drawing on other people's experiences, but that does seem to be the established and accepted trend. So continue culling your worst combs today, saving them for later introduction if necessary, then next spring during the best of early spring build-up, cull some more. There are culling strategies that can help, such as instroducing new frames into the center of the brood nest, putting the best previously drawn comb on either side of center, and the next best outside of that, until you get to the least acceptable on the outsides. Because the bees tend to drawn small cell in the center of the brood nest, this will make it easier for you to get uniformly small cell if you use the center of the brood nest for regression.

You generally still hold onto the older not so perfect small cell combs to help you in the future with new packages and hives to regress.


[This message has been edited by Scot Mc Pherson (edited May 12, 2004).]


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## scottybee (Feb 23, 2003)

Thanks scott
I think I'm getting a handle on this now!


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