# Trespassing and Killing Bees



## lisascenic (Mar 11, 2010)

This year, I set up a gardening friend with a hive of bees. She had the space, I provided the gear, the bees, and I did the work. She's got a six-foot tall fence all the way around the back yard.

Today, someone came into her yard and sprayed her hive with insecticide.

What is her recourse, in this situation? Is it even worth filing a police report? Even if the police can't do anything, would it send the "right" message to her neighbors? Has anyone dealt with anything like this before?

(Stupid Freaking Humans...)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If there is no ordinances against bees, I would file the police report and send samples to Belstville lab, and call the EPA as this is an unauthorized use of pesticide.

Beltsville:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=7473


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

I agree it should be reported as it could happen again. Just curious, is the fence solid or does it allow people to see what's in the back yard? Maybe a cheap trail camera would be a good idea. 

Don't some sprays shoot a long distance? 
Hopefully they didn't permanently taint the equipment. Sorry to hear of it.


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## lisascenic (Mar 11, 2010)

My friend said that some bees are still alive. If I switched out the gear (especially the landing and bottom boards) might we be able to salvage the hive? I guess it's worth a try. I'm guessing that the yahoos who did this sprayed the entrance, and didn't open the hive. 

Sadly, she doesn't know who did this. I think her fence is pretty solid, but neighbors could see into her yard from a second story window.


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## TattooedBeek (Aug 20, 2010)

I'd still report it.


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## lisascenic (Mar 11, 2010)

I think she's going to.


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

Wow! Some people are just morons. Sorry to hear about your hive. Gives me something to ponder as I have 3 hives out by my garage right now, it'd be REAL easy for someone, a spiteful neighbor perhaps to walk up and do the same thing to them. 
I hope at least one bee was able to get a stinger in the person.

C2


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## 10hive (Aug 28, 2008)

I'd set out a couple game cameras and get who ever on record.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Had someone come into her back yard and killed her dog, what would she do? Report it. Then if it happens again, Police may take it more seriously. I like the Critter Cams idea. Check local ordinances. Of course, if you report it, the Police may inform you of the local ordinances which doesn't mean that something illegal didn't occur.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Absolutely report it because the peed off bees could sting somebody now. You also can't get any action from an insurance company without a police report.

Video is the best and a motion sensor light is second best but I would install the light first. Once the light is installed it will scare away most criminals. The light is also a great trigger mechanism for the camera and you can never have too much light for an outside photo. Cops like photo evidence no matter how bad it is because they can make a suspect think it is a perfect photo and get a confession. Chances are the act happened at night when the bees were not out in force.

I hope you can save the remaining bees and brood.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Did she actually witness someone applying pesticides to the hive?

How did she know it occurred?

Or, did she simply find a pile of dead bees in front of the hive?


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## lisascenic (Mar 11, 2010)

She describes finding thousands of dead bees in front of her hive.

If anyone can explain this another way, I'd be curious to hear what they have to say.

What possesses people to behave this way? My friend has a very high fence and the bees were way out back, so only an immediate neighbor could have seen the bees, from an upper window. Instead of talking to my friend, instead of calling Animal Control, someone chose a solution to the perceived "problem" of backyard bees that was both sneaky and cowardly.


************************************

What I want to know now is how long-acting insecticides are. Will the bees that survived the initial spraying be slowly killed from exposure to chemicals?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

It could be that someone nearby applied pesticides to their plants, and that's what killed the bees.

Or, maybe it's that poisonous pollen that you have out in Ca.?

But, without actually seeing a trespasser...?


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## Pilgarlic56 (Aug 6, 2010)

If I were to find thousands of bees on the ground around my backyard hive I think my first thought would be that they had run afoul of someone's pesticide application while foraging. In fact, in "First Lessons in Beekeping", there's a photo of thousands of bees on the ground in front of a hive and the caption describes it as the result of poisoning by pesticide while foraging.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I would think the above posts are right, the kill was the results of foragers being killed by pesticides applied to plants not an intentional kill.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

What I want to know now is how long-acting insecticides are. Will the bees that survived the initial spraying be slowly killed from exposure to chemicals?

To answer that you need a quick chemical analysis of the poison, and your best info source is probably a licensed exterminator, unless your state has an office that handles details like that.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I have two game cameras to monitor the wildlife on my ranch. I use the information for food plot and other feeding operations. We are in such a drought that I am feeding deer at four locations. They don't have any browse this year.

Three years back one of my cameras took six pictures of a trespasser. The game warden printed the pictures and posted them at several locations, and the trespasser was caught in less that a week. When the game warder searched his premises 30 sets of deer antlers were found. This guy was selling antlers to people for wall hangers and for indoor lighting fixtures. He admitted to killing 30 deer per year. Set that camera and get a picture. Law enforcement officers love pictures.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Be careful making accusasions if you're ducks aren't in a row. I'm not saying you aren't right but if someone sprayed or dusted the hive you should be able to at least smell or see it. If you go off half ****ed you could damage neighborhood relations and even expose the fact that you have a hive. Is there something the bees are working very hard right now that gets sprayed? If the poisoning was done elsewhere and the bees got into it you'll be hard pressed to prove it unless it's obvious. Could this hive be getting robbed and the dead out front are from the fighting? Aim, aim, aim, then fire, do it the other way around and you'll end up with a hole in your foot.


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

lisascenic said:


> She describes finding thousands of dead bees in front of her hive.
> 
> If anyone can explain this another way, I'd be curious to hear what they have to say.


As others have said, thousands of dead bees in front of the hive is the classic sign of pesticide poisoning, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that someone jumped the fence and poisoned them. It's more likely the bees flew over the fence and were affected by a pesticide application to someone's fruit trees, garden or whatever.

As for your other question, the residual effects vary widely depending on the the particular pesticide.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

What you have is a pile of dead bees.
There were no witnesses.

This is the time of year for hive robbing. That too, will result in a pile of dead bees in front of the hive. Winner takes all !

Unless you have lab results proving poisoning then I would not file a report. The Oakland police have enough on their plate.


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## coppermouse (Apr 27, 2011)

set up hidden video and record it if it happens again?


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## lisascenic (Mar 11, 2010)

Indeed. I'm going to check prices on wildlife cameras.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

lisascenic said:


> Indeed. I'm going to check prices on wildlife cameras.


This is your best option. Called game cameras or game cams

They shoot well at night, use infrared so can easily see at night without tipping off the bad guy (or animal).

They are easly mounted out of the way and are designed to be independent needing no additional power source or receiver/recorder like other surveillance camera's/web cams.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

If you use a cheep one with a visible flash, you will donate a trail cam to the criminal (assuming there is one). You will have to spend some money and get the inferred flash kind. You could set up 2 one cheep (to be found) and one expensive (to document the theft of the first one).


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

If someone indeed sprayed them then you need to set up some kind of trap and enticement for him/her to come back. They need to think they have not succeeded. I would put up more hive (empty ones) to get that person up raging and come back again. Mad people make more mistakes. At the same time have the cam going. Also smell the equipment you have removed. Pesticide odor will linger around for a while. Perhaps you will find out what truly happened. Also call your local vector control office and have the property removed from any spraying operations.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If a simple motion sensor turns on a flood the criminal will not know a pic was taken at the same time or know where it is located. They are more apt to run before the crime is committed when they see the light. Commercial light sensors are good because they are not triggered by insects and birds like camera systems are.


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

RiodeLobo said:


> You could set up 2 one cheep (to be found) and one expensive (to document the theft of the first one).


I like the way you think! Lol.


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## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

An eye for an eye?


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## lisascenic (Mar 11, 2010)

Following up on the idea that pesticides applied elsewhere might have killed the bees...

Can anyone give me names of consumer-grade garden chemicals that might have the power to do this? The hive is in the suburbs, so it isn't likely to be an industrial grade chemical.


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## Pilgarlic56 (Aug 6, 2010)

Orthene, Diazinon, Lindane, Malathion, Orthenix. I'm sure there are others.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

Pilgarlic56 said:


> Orthene, Diazinon, Lindane, Malathion, Orthenix. I'm sure there are others.



Diazinon is unlikely as it was removed from market back in 2004 (some 7 years ago)

Carbaryl (Seven) is another likely.

even a flash version of a game camera works fine if its installed high up out of the way (like takes a latter to access) They still take reasonable pics at that distance.


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## Pilgarlic56 (Aug 6, 2010)

Right. Diazinon was phased out for residential uses.


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## lisascenic (Mar 11, 2010)

Turns out there is an oily residue all over the landing board, and a seven foot circle of dead bees in front of the hive.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A hidden camera, more bees and a previous police report, not making accusations, but stating the facts so when you catch them you can blame both attempts on them...


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Take pictures and document everything also.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Both of my game cameras are Moultrie. They are infrared flash cameras and the perp will not see the flash. They start at about $130.00. They make very good pictures. Set the camera up and downloas pictures to TV or computer.


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## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

I would re-queen with the hottest queen I could find!


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Hey BTW I went through the same thing...I have lost some over the past 4 years (5-10 hives) to pesticides. Beltsville cannot test for pesticides. According to the state inspectors you can send it off to a chemical lab but it could cost 500 bucks! And then figuring out who sprayed! Its one of those things you just have to move on UNLESS you know it is the neighbor.

Mike


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## johnblagg (May 15, 2011)

Permethrin


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Almost all insecticides are nerve toxins. Many are highly toxic to insects but, have very short half-lives in the environment. 

My guess would be that the hive entrance was sprayed with something. You are seeing bees within seven feet of the entrance. They either flew that far and died. Or, were carried out by survivors.

While it is possible that foragers could be bringing back insecticides I don't think you would see this kind of pattern. Many foragers would probably die before making it back to the hive. You would also find dead brood being removed from the hive after being feed the insecticide.

If the entrance was sprayed with a wasp and hornet spray it is probably one of the insecticides that has a short half-life. 

Tom


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I would think the easiest thing to reach for, if I was an ignorant bee killer, would be a big can of Wasp and Hornet Spray from WalMart. You can shoot that stuff from 20 feet away. I doubt the person who did it would take the time reasearch the right pesticide to use, mix the pesticide with water, buy a hand-pump pressure sprayer, and get close enough to apply it to the hive. I guess that they could just dump the bottle on the hive, but they would have to climb the fence and get really close to the hive to do that.

You have to think like the person who did it - They killed the hive because they are scared of bees. If they are scared of bees, they arent going to use something that makes them get close to the hive to apply. They are going to reach for a can of something that has nasty pictures on bees on it (actually hornets and wasps, but they dont know the difference) that says on the lable "effective for all bees from a distance of 20 feet away", find a hole in the fence, and spray away.

Also, I wouldn't worry about pesticide analysis. The bees are dead, it doesnt really matter what pesticide was used. The cops certainly wouldnt go to that level of effort even if they did "Investigate" the case.


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## dehavik (Jun 5, 2010)

Perhaps--if possible--examine the fence for the oily residue. If it was sprayed from a knot or crack in the fence, you could determine from where the poison came, and hence, from which neighor.


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## thestainedglasschick (Apr 10, 2011)

I worry about this happening with my neighbors. They are fertilizer happy and I'm sure it would take very little for them to become insecticide happy too. Just yesterday they complained that my bees were all over their dandylions. I have resolved myself to the fact that I'm going to have to move my hives as far away from their side as I can.

p.s. What's the best time of the year to move hives? 

Stephanie


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Stephanie, if it is a few hundred ft it isn't worth it. How do they have dandylions if they are fertilizer happy?

The spring would be the best time to move because the hive is the smallest and lightest. Creep the hive over if it is a short move.


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## thestainedglasschick (Apr 10, 2011)

Acebird: I know that my bees will still be all over their yard even if I move them a short distance. I can just see them as they type of people that would suddenly decide that they need Orkin out to spray the yard........passively dealing with my bees on their own. Right now my hives back up to a fence that divides our properties so if I move them they cant do anything directly to the hives themselves

Funny how all the fertilizer they spread isn't helping with the weeds but I bet its getting into the ground water and running off into the river nearby (btw we are in the Chesapeak Bay watershed and on well water). 

Before I set my hives up last spring, I talked to them about it and they were all for it. They were excited at the prospect of free honey and were happy about it. Now its become a big inconvenience for them to have bees in their yard. They don't spend a lot of time outside and they don't have kids who could get stung so I just don't get it. 

Steph


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

some people have no respect you pretty much cant do anything since you don't know which neighbor sprayed.once sprayed there doomed for my neighbors i ask if there allergic to bee stings most likely there not just because they swell up dosn't mean there allergic to them unless it affects there breathing.most people swell and panic im allergic...also i give my neighbors free honey and inform them you can get you honey every year if you stop using pesticides also reeducate them as to killing other pests natural...remember a little honey goes a long way since i informed my neighbors of this they stopped spraying even the dandilions...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

thestainedglasschick said:


> Funny how all the fertilizer they spread isn't helping with the weeds but I bet its getting into the ground water and running off into the river nearby (btw we are in the Chesapeak Bay watershed and on well water).


Hard to figure some people ...

Have you given them any honey yet? Maybe it will sweeten their soul.
I would ask them if they would like you to move the hive so they feel you are cooperating with their wishes. If you move it first they may read right through you as a mistrusting neighbor which may bring on more problems.


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## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

Wouldn't fertilizer just make the weeds grow better?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

It makes the grass grow better and that chokes out the weeds.


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## Peter (Mar 28, 2009)

Fertilizer just makes everything grow bigger and better. Some lawn fertilzers include a herbicide that attacks and kills broad leaf plants.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

Peter said:


> Fertilizer just makes everything grow bigger and better. Some lawn fertilzers include a herbicide that attacks and kills broad leaf plants.


aka weed n feed.

you have to try really hard to find "lawn fertilizer" that doesnt include a broad leaf herbicide in it.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

Of course the talk to neighbors route would be great but it's tough to say.
Perhaps with a black light or some investigative tool you could see a trail of where the pesticides may have come from. If it's really obvious you could re position the hive where it's more difficult for them to reach. I like the idea of putting some decoy boxes infront of where they shot the pesticides so they know you know they did it. Perhaps put a little blockade fence to prevent such a thing from occurring again. Make it so for them to trespass again or shoot poison it would be super difficult without an obvious trail of their crime. If someone did indeed purposefully do this they probably don't understand the nature of Honeybees. It is unfortunate but it doesn't excuse their behavior. Shucks!, As if it isn't enough to keep up with the bees without stuff like this. Good Luck! Out Smart Them!


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

In Michigan, honeybees are classified as livestock, just like cattle or chickens. The willful and deliberate killing and to trespass to perpetrate this crime is a felony. It wouldn’t hurt to let it be known that you will press charges if the criminal is ever discovered, might prevent this form happening in the future.


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## lisascenic (Mar 11, 2010)

Update (you can read a more detailed version of all this on my blog.)










I brought a frame of newly-laid eggs from my hives, just in case it might be useful to any remaining bees.

There were a huge amount of dead bees, both outside the hive, and on the floor of the hive. (Photos of dead bees in grass don't work out. They just look like dirt between blades of grass.)










Amazingly, there were plenty of live bees inside the hive as well. Moving well, not twitching or looking unwell.

We spotted the queen!

I replaced the landing board and bottom board, and moved the hive to a much more secluded part of my friend's yard.

We're cautiously optimistic. I'll be checking this hive again in a week.


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## Monkadelic (Feb 5, 2010)

Lisa, I enjoyed reading your blog post. I hope all goes well with the hive, and that karma catches up with whoever may have sprayed it. That scenario is my worst nightmare...


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## lisascenic (Mar 11, 2010)

Thanks!

My friend tells me that the bees are out foraging today, which is a hopeful sign.


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## Ben Franklin (May 3, 2011)

I had something similar:
Only it was a Hybrid Wolf, it attacked and killed a pig then turned on the boys checking to see what all the ruckus was about.
The owner not only had to pay for my lose, but also received a hefty fine. The boys killed the Hybrid wolf.
I say the person who had the bees killed should if not already done file a police report, its a crime!


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

A hybrid wolf just seems wrong. It's like too much messing with nature. I have read that hybrid wolves have the killing power and instinct of a wolf and are much less frightened of man. Years ago a hybrid wolf killed a large calf for one of my old pals. It was like a 450 pound calf. I didn't think it was possible.

About the bees being killed, I wouldn't say a thing to my neighbor until I was 100 percent sure that he poisoned my bees. Even then, it would be best to turn the proof over to the authorities. It's a terrible thing to have an adversarial neighbor. I've never had one, and can't imagine how much misery it would bring to your day to day life.


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## Ben Franklin (May 3, 2011)

I agree with not talking to the neighbor.

I would post signs about trespassing and prosecution to the full degree.
My neighbor who owned the Hybrid wolf was a terrible neighbor for years.


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## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

Shows you how much I use fertilizer or weed killer on my lawn.



schmism said:


> aka weed n feed.
> 
> you have to try really hard to find "lawn fertilizer" that doesnt include a broad leaf herbicide in it.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Peter's got the answer on the fertilizer. My answer on bees was to wait for 20 years until I could get into a more rural area. I cannot imagine trying to keep bees at my old address. My next door neighbor pepper sprayed a dog who didn't start out mean, Just watched the fence and barked, but after the pepper spray she got truly vicious and I finally had to take her to be the pound.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Gypsi said:


> Peter's got the answer on the fertilizer.


Dandelions are a broad leaf plant where the leaves are close to the ground. A thick lawn will shade the leaves and limit its growth and also prevent new seeds from germinating. Dandelions can bloom all summer long but around here you see them mostly in the spring when the grass hasn't had a chance to shade them out. I battle them all year long in the pavement and where the pavement meets the buildings because they get a great supply of water and are not shaded by the pavement.

We use no herbicides what so ever. So unless our chickens are picking herbicides out of thin air our fertilizer has no herbicides contained with in it.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Thank you for your clarification.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

I hate to say it, But to me the most obvious culprit would be adolescent kids if any are immediate neighbors. Even good kids do incredibly stupid and thoughtless stuff, and troublemakers will go out of their way to make trouble.
Their is a terrible age when kids develop and need independence from supervision but still lack the judgment and impulse control.....they often don't mean to be malicious they just don't think before they act...they just "want to see what happens" or "if they could do it". Fortunately most of us out grow this, unfortunately there are many who don't.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Adolescent kids would be the obvious choice, but the guy who pepper sprayed my dog regularly because she barked when he got near my fence, was in his 60's. 

The man who this year attempted to beat up my daughter's german shepherd when he was tied in her front yard, was in his 40's, trying to get the dog to bite him so he could sue. He did eventually get a minor bite to the hand, Sebastian is a very mellow dog, but kick him enough he will bite. Imagine the neighbor's shock to discover my daughter didn't have insurance he could sue, and of course landlords are only allowed to carry fire policies on rental property. Cost my daughter hundreds to have her dog quarantined for the legally required 10 days, and his metal in plastic casing rope didn't let him within 5 ft of the sidewalk....
People are often ignorant, fearful and have their own motivations and sense of propriety. Not just teenagers.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Barking dogs can be a pain in the butt. I once had a back yard neighbour whose yard was separated from me by a six foot tall cedar fence. At all times when I was in my back yard, his two Sheltie dogs barked incessantly. I couldn't enjoy my back yard. I didn't ever retaliate against the dogs, but I can see how people could. I love to barbecue, but it was not possible the three years that I lived adjacent to those dogs. 

Bees, wasps, snakes and such do not bother me, as they are part of nature. Besides they don't bark. I don't kill rattlesnakes on the ranch unless they are close to the headquarters.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Barking dogs can be a pain, this is true. I Now have 3 dogs. (then, with constant breakins by humans, I only had 2, and a monitored alarm) 
My present dogs do not bark unless you are within a few feet of my fence and look suspicious. or if you are a rat, snake, etc. If I tell them to stop barking, they stop. If you come over my fence, you will be missing clothing on the way back out and possibly injured. There are beware of dog signs, there are no trespassing signs, and it would be best if the dogs are who got a prowler, rather than me. They are nicer.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

And what might or might not be useful for the person whose bees were killed. Only one of my dogs would bark when I lived in town, the other one licked that burglar on the hand while he was sliding open my back window. Fortunately I had a window screw lock set a couple of inches in, and the alarm went off. 

Shortly after this I started a crime watch/citizens on patrol and recruited the guy that pepper-sprayed my dog, and a lot of other neighbors, to address our common problem. Please be aware it takes between 20 and 60 hours a week, and costs not much except gas, phone time, and in my case, eventually my health and sanity. But before my health started to tumble, we had run the gangs out of the neighborhood, and crime went from an all-time high to an all-time low.

It is very hard cooperating with neighbors when old injuries, such as dead dogs (mine had to be put down) or dead bees are in the way. 

But IF I were to consider beekeeping in town, I would consider holding neighborhood barbecues that included everyone close by, and getting them all involved in the protection of the neighborhood. You might never find who killed your bees, (I learned about the pepperspray months after it happened, btw), but if it turns potential enemies into friends, and fosters understanding, it might help.


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## msapostol (Sep 6, 2008)

lisascenic, 
Pretty upsetting to read about this as I live in the East Bay too. Please keep us informed on any updates.


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

Gypsi said:


> There are beware of dog signs, there are no trespassing signs, and it would be best if the dogs are who got a prowler, rather than me. They are nicer.


That wouldn't work too well here in the California, this is the "sue me state". Putting a sign up saying beware of dog, only opens the door for a shystie lawyer. He would use that as "you knew your dog was vicious" and yes, that came straight from a lawyer's mouth. It's sad that yes, there are people that will take a case like that, a person hops your fence, trespasses, breaks into you house and gets injury and can sue you?! Now winning is another thing, but I wouldn't put it past this state. It seems like we've all but lost the right to protect ourselves, our families and property in today's society.

C2


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Nabber86 said:


> The cops certainly wouldnt go to that level of effort even if they did "Investigate" the case.


Maybe you can get Grishim from CSI. He really knows his bugs. He would do that larva test he does and let them incubate and then run it though his spectrographomoter thingy and he would know the cause and then they would use lasers to figure out the stream and distance it traveled and from that they find a tare on the fence of a shirt and would narrow it down to the Wall-mart the shirt came from. Then from the oil stain in the parking lot of the wall mart they would figure out the year and model of the pickem'up truck that was driven to get the spray. From there they would watch the video of all the vehicles that went into that wallmart and find your killer. Me I would just use google earth and see if I can see the person doing it.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

hahahaha EastSide. You are right, he would do that. Ordinary cops, well I have known a few that would actually investigate something. But I also handed the rearview mirror of a stolen car, with a clear thumbprint on it, to a cop so he could take the print. He handed it to the car owner. No effort too great to solve a crime.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Batman said:


> Putting a sign up saying beware of dog, only opens the door for a shystie lawyer. He would use that as "you knew your dog was vicious" and yes, that came straight from a lawyer's mouth. ... It seems like we've all but lost the right to protect ourselves, our families and property in today's society.
> 
> C2


And that would be why I live in Texas, the "shoot me" state. Car stereo thieves don't hit houses often, only apartments, where the owner can't see or hear what's up with his car. My no trespassing signs are to protect me from prosecution. The thieves are warned.


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## SurprisingWoman (Apr 22, 2010)

Gypsi, as an insurance agent I have taken many, many national classes for the various certifications. EVERY SINGLE CLASS on liability for EVERY state said to advise your clients to NEVER put up beware of dog signs for the reasons C2 said. You never want to show that you are aware of any possibility of injuring another party. Any advisory sign is just opening a door to a lawsuit, honestly.

My dad was a State Farm agent in Arlington, TX for over 30 years and that's where I started my career. Texas is just as litigious as every other state.

It would be better for you, and everyone else, to take down your signs. Just an FYI. In the US there is an attorney for each 275 people, approx. That is a lot of mouths to feed with large student loans.


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

I want the James Bond car. In the movie I am thinking of, a bad guy busts out the window of his car, and it blows up taking the bad guy with it. Good excuse to go out and get a new car, and one less bad guy in the world. grin

C2


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Not taking the sign off my front door. My postman asked me to put it up, they are not allowed to knock on doors with large dogs in the house, and I opened the door with a rott on one side of me and a german shepherd mix on the other when she rang the bell. Ain't been sued yet. Ain't been broken into here either. Which is more dangerous, a man breaking in, or a lawsuit puppy?


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## Stacykins (Apr 26, 2011)

SurprisingWoman said:


> Gypsi, as an insurance agent I have taken many, many national classes for the various certifications. EVERY SINGLE CLASS on liability for EVERY state said to advise your clients to NEVER put up beware of dog signs for the reasons C2 said. You never want to show that you are aware of any possibility of injuring another party. Any advisory sign is just opening a door to a lawsuit, honestly.
> 
> My dad was a State Farm agent in Arlington, TX for over 30 years and that's where I started my career. Texas is just as litigious as every other state.
> 
> It would be better for you, and everyone else, to take down your signs. Just an FYI. In the US there is an attorney for each 275 people, approx. That is a lot of mouths to feed with large student loans.


But "No Trespassing" signs are necessary to display clear desire for there to be NO TRESPASSERS on your property. In fact, many cops won't pursue trespassing charges unless there is a sign put up to warn would be trespassers. It seems like without a sign, people have free reign to just waltz onto your property and do as they please.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I finally fenced my lot, it looked like a park and invited strolls and one guy even rang my doorbell to ask for the baby pine tree. I told him no. I have no trespassing most places, but the dog sign is on the front door. And the locked gate.


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## millbeezhoney (Feb 10, 2011)

i just went through this with 13 hives sprayed, house hold sprays with perimethrine something like that, is a low risk insecticide used around pets and family, the bee inspecter said it should break down in two weeks and even use the honey. i called the cops, the usda, tomorrow the news paper, 2 different ones, and bought a trail camera in order to prosecute if i can just get a picture n catch them in the act


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

That's horrible. I'm so sorry.


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## ShaneVBS (Aug 22, 2011)

I came home to a pile of dead bees too. i found out it was robbing that caused it. Was blaming nieghbors lol. and then i caught it one day


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

All countries should pass a law that anyone who endangers, hurts or kills any living organisms 
owned by another to have a lifetime ban on being able to have pets or work near animals not 
including jail time. These honey bees were on private property and I don't know of any place
on the planet who can't use more pollinators at this time. So extra laws should be set to 
protect bees from idiots like this.

Game cameras work pretty good for stuff like this. So would a lawsuit for damages
if you find the culprits. If those bees are heirlooms I would sue for even more money. 
If only it was legal to spray that person with swarm lure they would never go near 
another hive again.

I hope you get justice.


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## BoBn (Jul 7, 2008)

TWall said:


> Almost all insecticides are nerve toxins. Many are highly toxic to insects but, have very short half-lives in the environment.
> Tom


So what is the "half life" from a biochemical standpoint? If I dump some in your water supply, when will it be be safe for you to use your water again?

I am serious. What is this "half life" that you are talking about? I use the term for radioligicals, but not for SOCs. Many of the synthetic organic compounds are preserved when they are adsorbed by organisms and concentrated in organisms. There is still plenty of diazinon and even ddt in human tissue. Commonly used synthetic pythrethroids (from homeowner use) soil residues has effect on earthworms mortality and reproduction for several years after use. It is a widespread effect in suburban areas.

BoB


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

BoBn said:


> So what is the "half life" from a biochemical standpoint? If I dump some in your water supply, when will it be be safe for you to use your water again?


From a strictly environmental standpoint, the half-life is simply the amount of time that it takes for a chemical compound to be one-half of the original concentration (or some intermediate value). 

Pesticides are organic chemicals that degrade naturally in the environment (yes believe it or not, they _*do*_ degrade). And yes the decay of organic compounds is similar to the decay of radioactive elements (first-order decay). Compounds like DDT and PCBs have very long half lives - DDT can have a half-life of 20 years or more depending on the decay mechanism. On the other end of the spectrum, the half life of Roundup is around 1 to 2 months (again, depending on the decay mechanism). 

To answer your question directly about safe water. Assume that somebody dumped the herbicide 2,4-D in your well and the original concentration was 1 ppm (1,000 µg/L). If the half life for 2,4-D in your well was 20 days, the concentration in your well water would be 62.5 µg/L after 80 days and would be safe to drink (the federal MCL for 2,4-D is 70 µg/L). Of course that is what the government says and YMMV.....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> To answer your question directly about safe water. Assume that somebody dumped the herbicide 2,4-D in your well and the original concentration was 1 ppm (1,000 µg/L). If the half life for 2,4-D in your well was 20 days, the concentration in your well water would be 62.5 µg/L after 80 days and would be safe to drink (the federal MCL for 2,4-D is 70 µg/L).


But then you have to define safe. Is it written as safe or is it written as an acceptable concentration? Human tolerance varies just like it does with insects. Some insects die some don't, some humans die, and some don't.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I agree with Nabber. I have studied underground injection (waste disposal wells) and the USEPA and all the state agencies use a PPM or PPB as a guide line for health and safety. Now, don't get excited, I don't drill waste disposal wells, but since they fall into my industry, I do keep abreast of their regulations.

Let's cut to the chase. We all wish there was not a need for pesticides and other chemicals that are dangerous to our health. To me it's like the old saw, "everyone wants to go to Heaven, and no one wants to die." I don't see how we can feed our people without pesticides.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> But then you have to define safe. Is it written as safe or is it written as an acceptable concentration? Human tolerance varies just like it does with insects. Some insects die some don't, some humans die, and some don't.


"Safe" is defined by the by the "*Safe* Drinking Water Act" and more specifically the USEPA MCLs (Maximum Contaminant Levels) that have been established for around 200 organic compounds by an army of government toxicologists. The gov'ment says that a person can drink water at the MCL level for any given chemical (70 µg/L in the case of 2,4-D) for a 70-year lifetime and suffer "no adverse health effects".

That, by federal law, is the _*definition *_of "safe".


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

If someone hit your hives with pesticides there will be residuals (typically smell) left behind and you should be able to smell it for days (even if you smoke). If there was no smell or oily residue and you can't rule out robbing I would put up the IR game cam and wait. Looks like the lower end models cost as much as a fully fit hive with bees so think of it as 'big sister' keeping an eye on her little sibs


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