# new york apiary industry advisory committee



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

any one know how to get information on this organization? I have found that they are to meet once a month, and if you want to present some information, to get in touch with your rep. Problem is I have done searches on the gov. site and the agricultural site, and Dyce labs and find not documents, except one piece of data that shows the last representative term expired in 2003 or something like that. I know they are still in business because the ESHPA newsletter had the following info:

Aaron Morris is in the process of requesting the expansion of the role of ESHPA in the Apiary Industry Advisory Committee. He will write a letter to the Commissioner proposing that the President of ESHPA be invited to attend AIAC meetings. 

any help would be appreciated, I would really like to find out what they do/discuss. thanks


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mark doesn't know?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mike,
I'll PM you some names. I only have a few phone numbers.

I'm surprised to hear that they will be meeting once a month. Three or four times a year is the most I have ever heard. Where did you get that info from?


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## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

Mike, I know 4-5 guys on the committee. It is run by NY AG and Markets. I believe it only meets a few times a year also. Call our head apiary guy, Paul Cappy at Ag and markets in Albany for details. 
Nick


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The AIAC is a group of beekeepers, small scalers, sideliners, and commercials, who meet periodically to talk w/ the Commissioner of Agriculture to discuss issues pertaining to beekeeping in NY State and to make recommendations to the Commissioner on things the Commissioner is interested in.

Meeting minutes are not readily available to the public. Though sometimes they are shared. The AIAC has discussed the idea of having a Liaison w/ the eshpa. The Liaison will report to eshpa on the things discussed at the latest AIAC meeting.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> The AIAC is a group of beekeepers, small scalers, sideliners, and commercials, who meet periodically to talk w/ the Commissioner of Agriculture to discuss issues pertaining to beekeeping in NY State and to make recommendations to the Commissioner on things the Commissioner is interested in.
> 
> Meeting minutes are not readily available to the public. Though sometimes they are shared. The AIAC has discussed the idea of having a Liaison w/ the eshpa. The Liaison will report to eshpa on the things discussed at the latest AIAC meeting.


any idea why the minutes are not shared with the public? If they are discussing beekeeping issues with the Commissioner, I for one would like to know what the issues are. Also knowing who is on the committee would be of interest as they are my spokesperson to the Commissioner. Instead of letting the ESHPA access to the information, in today's age of websites, a simple page with the meeting minutes would let everyone know. The more information available the better, I'm interested in why the honey standard suddenly lost all of the sponsors of the bill in N.Y. when it was half way through the process of becoming law. I do have access to one of the original sponsors of the bill, so when I see them next will ask and post here.

in searching for the group, the law that formed the committee said they meet once a month, also saw where senate bill s06194 tried to eliminate the committee, but someone saved it.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Though sometimes they are shared.


so how have they shared them in the past, If I know that I might have a better idea of how to find the information. thanks


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

All good questions Mike. Best wishes finding the answers. 

ESHPA has asked for better clarity and access, but has been met w/ resistance. It's the Commissioners' Advisory Committee. I don't know if such groups are required to share information. If you find out when meetings are scheduled anyone can attend. Which doesn't mean you can participate. But you can observe and may have a chance to bring up concerns at the end of the meeting.

When it comes to membership, people on the Committee make recommendations on who should serve when a vacancy occurs.

Did you call Paul Cappy? If you can't get answers from him try his boss, the Director of Plant Industry.

Right now the Dept of Ag&Mkts is between Commissioners. So I doubt that they will be meeting any time soon. They did meet, in Syracuse, the day before ESHPAs' Fall Mtng a cpl wks ago.

As far as the SOI for Honey Legislation is concerned, it is stalled in Committee as far as I know. Plenty of Industry resistance and lack of Farm Bureau support probably has something to do w/ it not going forward. It needs work if not scrapping.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Lots of politics in beekeeping. Oh wait, I've said that before! Control and money, money and control.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> All good questions Mike. Best wishes finding the answers.
> 
> ESHPA has asked for better clarity and access, but has been met w/ resistance. It's the Commissioners' Advisory Committee. I don't know if such groups are required to share information. If you find out when meetings are scheduled anyone can attend.
> 
> When it comes to membership, people on the Committee make recommendations on who should serve when a vacancy occurs.


I seem to find some disconnect with the information I find. I went back through ESHPa newsletters looking for information I found the following:
if the committee is comprised of only eshpa members, I'm confused as to why the ESHPA would have trouble coming up with a list of the members and what is said at the meetings?
I also have to go back and look at the law that created it to see what the make up was proposed to be. No haven't called cappy yet. thanks

eshp summer 2013 

The role of ESHPA in the Apiary Industry Advisory Committee (AIAC) was discussed. Although the committee is comprised of ESHPA members, Bob Brachmann made the fourth motion to recommend to the committee that the President of ESHPA be made a de-facto member of the AIAC. It was seconded by Bill Ferris, and the motion was passed by a vote of 26 in favor, to 21 opposed. It was also requested that the AIAC agenda and meeting minutes be made available to ESHPA.

summer board meeting 2012
Bill Roome made the first motion to propose the inclusion of member(s) representing ESHPA as an organization to the Apiary Advisory Committee. It was seconded by Pat Bono, and was unanimously carried. It is hoped that the opinions of a greater number of beekeepers statewide may be expressed in future meetings.
The second motion, made by Amy Wakefield, was to have a letter written by the president of ESHPA and endorsed with board member signatures to present to the Commissioner of Agriculture and Markets to approve membership with the AIAC. It was seconded by Pat Bono, and was unanimously carried.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

correction meets once a year not once a month.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Meeting once a year is practically useless for getting anything done. It sounds like a night out with the boys.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Acebird said:


> Meeting once a year is practically useless for getting anything done. It sounds like a night out with the boys.


true but if they are making recommendations to the Ag. Comm. and they all belong to the ESHPA, who is representing you. If you can't find out who is on the committee, when they meet, what is said, when there are openings on the committee, need I go on. I'm trying to find out who represents my area to get some information/pass some information on, and short of the phone #'s mark provided, and having sent an email to the ag commission's office and waiting on a reply, not much else. I do know that someone wants this committee to stay around as senate bill s06194 when presented would have eliminated this committee, but the final passage did not include deleting this committee. The ESHPA is trying to include the president of that organization on the committee, even though the law that created the committee is very specific of what the membership is, so I would think that ESHPA thinks there is value in having even more members to influence the AG Comm, don't ya think. things are usually done for a reason.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It may have outlived its original intent. 

Most of the aiac members are also eshpa members but they have no obligation to share information w/ eshpa. It is not part of the committee charge, as far as I know.

eshpa is one beekeeping organization in the State of NY. Again, as far as I know there is no provision in the aiac mandate that NYS beekeeping organizations should have specific representation. Should every State and Local Beekeeping Association have someone on the AIAC? You might think so, but it isn't set up that way. Maybe it aught to be. Why don't you write a letter, not an e-mail, to the Commissioner if that's what you think should happen.

People who serve on the aiac are not representatives like elected officials like Legislators are. AIAC members are representatives of the beekeeping industry and community in general. That's how I see it.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

I keep saying this. The AIAC is the Commissioners Committee. It exists for his or her purposes. I don't pay much attention to it. I hope that doesn't seem like deriliction of duty. But that is my attitude about the AIAC.

"things are usually done for a reason."? Yes usually. But that doesn't mean that the reason is evident or makes sense.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> But that doesn't mean that the reason is evident or makes sense.


I am surprised you voiced that. I agree.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> It may have outlived its original intent.
> 
> Most of the aiac members are also eshpa members but they have no obligation to share information w/ eshpa. It is not part of the committee charge, as far as I know.
> 
> ...


>It may have outlived its original intent.

some things make no sense to me, if it has outlived it intent, why would the eshpa want the president to go to the meetings?

>eshpa is one beekeeping organization in the State of NY. Again, as far as I know there is no provision in the aiac mandate that NYS beekeeping organizations should have specific representation.

true, there are no provision for a beekeeping organization in there mandate, that's why I found it interesting that eshpa wanted their president to be part of it.

>Why don't you write a letter, not an e-mail, to the Commissioner if that's what you think should happen.

good idea, I have already sent an email to both my local rep. and the commissioner volunteering to get on the committee as a sideliner.
I will follow up with a letter to both, If I can't find out what they are doing externally, can spend a day a year finding out, since no one knows about it, I should go to the top of the list . I encourage everyone to do the same especially Acebird, as I have heard he thinks out side the box, and that can only help. Just think if we both get on I can finally meet him.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> "things are usually done for a reason."? Yes usually. But that doesn't mean that the reason is evident or makes sense.


well Mr. president I would guess if I keep reading/ or attend a meeting It will become clearer?:scratch:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You could just walk over to Utica and knock on his door. That would be easier.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

It has been a number of years since I worked for Cornell Cooperative Extension so my memory may be a little fuzzy. But, most states have sunshines laws where minutes, etc. of meetings are free to the public. I would be surprised if NY didn't have a law like that.

Tom


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## Coffee_Bee (Feb 3, 2013)

Who is actually being represented?

You'll find AIAC members are now on the ESHPA Board of Directors, representing migratory interests or their version of it. If there is a vacancy either on AIAC or ESHPA now, it will be filled with business associates or "friends" who are agreeable or malleable.
At the NY Farm Bureau delegate meeting next week you will see the same people "representing" NY beekeeping. Different groups, same people controlling the groups.

I've heard that the AIAC is working under a veil of secrecy, trying to influence NYS legislation with their small group.



> Lots of politics in beekeeping. Oh wait, I've said that before! Control and money, money and control.


 Yes, consolidation of power in a handful of a few. What was that quote about absolute power?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Sure would. Just call first to make sure I am there to meet you. Mike, I am not politically oriented to beat my head against the wall with bureaucrats. The Big Apple pretty much runs the state even what affect agriculture. I don't think there is enough of an economic impact on the state with bees to get them excited about anything.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Coffee_Bee said:


> Who is actually being represented?
> 
> You'll find AIAC members are now on the ESHPA Board of Directors, representing migratory interests or their version of it. If there is a vacancy either on AIAC or ESHPA now, it will be filled with business associates or "friends" who are agreeable or malleable.
> At the NY Farm Bureau delegate meeting next week you will see the same people "representing" NY beekeeping. Different groups, same people controlling the groups.
> ...


What you may have heard and think you know may not be accurate. As a committee they advise the Commissioner. As individuals they may try to influence the State Legislature. But you can too.

AIAC members have always been ESHPA member. Should there be rules against serving both as principles?

Power? What power? It's an advisory board. If you want to advise the Commissioner of Ag&Mkts do so. Call him. 518-457-2087 or write him. Commissioner of Ag&Mkts, Airline Drive, Albany.

R u involved w/ either group? I don't know if I saw you at the ESHPA Mtng or not.

There doesn't seem to be anything in your beesource Profile which says anything about you, where you are from, or whether you have any bees or not and how long you have had bees. I don't know who you are.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Seems to me that where there is smoke there is fire.
At the very least, some people are not pleased with the workings of the AIAC and ESHPA.
Maybe they could explain why?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I spoke w/ AIAC Chair Stephen Wilson and ESHPA will Post contact info for AIAC Members on the ESHPA Website as soon as that information is received and processed onto the website.

In the mean time, Chuck Kutik AIAC member and ESHPA 1st VP can be reached at 607-336-4105. Chuck is passionate about respresenting any concerns that come his way to the Commissioner of Ag&Mkts of NYS. He has an open mind and is willing to listen to anyone concerned w/ NY beekeeping.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> Seems to me that where there is smoke there is fire.
> At the very least, some people are not pleased with the workings of the AIAC and ESHPA.
> Maybe they could explain why?


If you have something nice to say about ESHPA tell a friend. If you have a complaint, concern, or suggestion about ESHPA send me a PM. As recently elected President of the Board of Directors of ESHPA I would like to hear from you.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sqkcrk==


> If you have something nice to say about ESHPA tell a friend. If you have a complaint, concern, or suggestion about ESHPA send me a PM. As recently elected President of the Board of Directors of ESHPA I would like to hear from you.


I am surprised you have not taken this opportunity to explain the benefits of ESHPA membership and stance of ESHPA on various issues facing the bee/honey business in NY to the NY beekeepers on here. It seems like the perfect time and place to 'set the record straight' if that needs to be done, especially given Coffee_Bee's assertions, or promote the organization. 

Since this thread was created I have looked at the ESHPA website and wonder why all the information about SOI is still prominently placed given your comments-


> As far as the SOI for Honey Legislation is concerned, it is stalled in Committee as far as I know. Plenty of Industry resistance and lack of Farm Bureau support probably has something to do w/ it not going forward. It needs work if not scrapping.


Loss of Sponsorship was weeks or more ago if I am correct, so what is the ESHPA position now?

"Promoting the interests of NYS beekeepers since 1867. Read the Label -- Buy Local Honey -- Buy New York State Honey"
is the slogan. I think many would be interested in hearing how this is being done. And it wouldn't cost a dime and reach a whole lot of readers both in NY and elsewhere.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> As recently elected President of the Board of Directors of ESHPA I would like to hear from you.


That is not going to work well if you maintain an ignore list.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I tried too find the Post wherein Barry asked me to be careful w/ what I said about ESHPA and how I promoted it on beesource. Since the Thread I started no longer exists this generalization is probably incorrect.

I would feel better answering questions than stating ESHPA positions. Meeting Minutes are published on the website at eshpa.org. Not written as a cop out.

Let me get back to you on SOI.

One example of ESHPA promoting the interests of NYS beekeepers is the NY Beewellness Workshop which has helped to educate quite a few beekeepers about diseases and pests of honeybees so they could teach other members of their local clubs.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I find news letters but not meeting minutes. I'll keep looking


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> That is not going to work well if you maintain an ignore list.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frd53vbCHLg


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Meeting Minutes can be found in the Newsletters.

Anyone who wants to communicate w/ me knows how to contact me. My beesource ignore list reminds me that I don't have to respond to everything someone writes. It doesn't mean I don't read Posts written by those three on my ignore list.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> I find news letters but not meeting minutes. I'll keep looking


the meeting minutes, including some of the board of directors meeting minutes are included as part of the news letter. I normally read them as I get them, but they are more interesting now trying to trace back some of this information.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

I got a call back from the Email I sent to the agricultural commission. They are going to make the minuets of the meeting available once they all agree on what was discussed. I think they said for the last two meetings as they have had two fairly close together, and they said they had no problem with distributing the minuets, at least they had no problem when they said they were going to send me a copy, and I said I would send to all members of the two clubs I belong to. they also said that there was some information on Nick Calderon's site if is still up, but I haven't found it yet. any one know where it is?
they are going to send a copy to Mark, hopefully he can get someone to post them on the web site. They put me on the list of available candidates, if there is an opening in the norther zone.
they also said there is an opening available in the southern zone around long island, if any one is interested. <-- non commercial beek


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nic Calderone has left Cornell. He left a month or more ago. I don't know what site of his they may be referring to. But I imagine it doesn't exist since he isn't there anymore.

Nice to know Mike. I look forward to seeing what we get.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> I tried too find the Post wherein Barry asked me to be careful w/ what I said about ESHPA and how I promoted it on beesource. Since the Thread I started no longer exists this generalization is probably incorrect.


It was a PM Mark. There was only one example I gave about what I had seen another member do in relation to this and explained how I didn't want that sort of tone set here. You're free to discuss/promote ESHPA all you want, keeping in mind that example I shared.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

By-Laws of the ESHPA

ARTICLE II – PURPOSES 
The purposes for which this corporation has been organized are as follows: 
To promote and protect the interests of New York State beekeepers, and 
To form an association for mutual benefit of New York State honey producers; to 
promote and assist in efforts to preserve and protect the honey bee; to assist New York State 
honey producers in promoting, marketing and publicizing honey and hive products and 
educate the public to the value of honey bee pollination; to aid in presenting a uniform point of 
view on concerns of New York State honey producers to state and federal agencies and the 
general public. 
To procure uniformity and certainty in customs and usages of trade and commerce, and 
of those having a common trade, business, financial or professional interest; to promote a more 
enlarged and friendly intercourse among beekeepers. 
To do any other act or thing incidental to or connected with the foregoing purposes or in 
advancement thereof, but not for the pecuniary profit or financial gain of its members, directors, 
or officers except as permitted under Article 5 of the Not-For-Profit Corporation Law. 

To keep this discussion on a positive note,
How is the organization meeting it's stated purposes?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> to assist New York State
> honey producers in promoting, marketing and publicizing honey and hive products and
> educate the public to the value of honey bee pollination; to aid in presenting a uniform point of
> view on concerns of New York State honey producers to state and federal agencies and the
> ...


We have a booth at the State Fair where honey is sold, beehive manipulation is demonstarted, an observation hive is displayed and questions are answered.

Over the last 4 years we have had our Summer Picnics in conjunction w/ local clubs to share food conversation, and a speaker of interest to as many beekeepers as possible. Sam Comfort, Tom Seeley, Jim Tew, and Randy Oliver w/ Sam Comfort as his warm up act just to name the last four Summer Picnic speakers. There is no admission charge to the Summer Picnic meeting. It's a potluck affair for which ESHPA provides the main course.

At the Summer Picnic we have a Board Meeting before the General Meeting, lunch and speaker. The Board Meeting is open to anyone unless executive session is declared. During the General Meeting also open to anyone, if an item needs voting on only paid members are eligible to vote.

The NY BeeWellness Program is an outreach/educational program which Pat Bono, ESHPA's BeeWellness Director, developed and got funding for and has backing of the association. We approved a $4000.00 expenditure to fullfil funding for 2014. There is great interest across the association to continue and expand the BeeWellness Program.

We reach out to local associations across the State by sending newsletters to local association club Presidents, inviting their participation and input on what ESHPA should be doing.

There is an attitude amongst many NY beekeepers that ESHPA is for the Commercials. That, in my personal opinion, not necessarily that of ESHPA itself, is a narrow and biased point of view. People who want to be involved in and want to influence what ESHPA is and does are welcome to attend meetings and to participate in the decision making process. Everyone's voice is welcome and will be heard. That has always been true and will be so going forward.

I may be wrong about this, but it appears to me that most beekeepers in NY are not members of any Bee Club and that those that are members of a Local Bee Club have little time to spare to attend another Bee Club, taking a day off from work or deer season. Which is perfectly reasonable and understandable. 

Therefore the folks whose livelihood depends on bees are most likely to attend and have the ability to set aside the time to do so. So, I think the makeup of the membership is natural and appropriate. I believe we do the best we can to keep in mind what is best for beekeepers in general w/ deference to those whose pocketbooks may be directly effected. And we don't have all of the Commercial beekeepers of NY in our membership.

Where else do NY State Commercial Beekeepers have to go? They don't have time to go to monthly meetings. When I first attended an ESHPA meeting almost 30 years ago I saw the Commercial beekeepers and wanted to be them. I hope that there are people like me attending our meetings.

At our Board of Directors meeting this Fall the idea of a Promotional Program was brought up. I have hopes that it will be in some ways similar to NY BeeWellness.

I'm sure there is more that could be written. I wish there were other ESHPA folks who would add comments. I hope I have answered your question in part.

There is always work to do and improvement to be made to further fulfill ESHPA's mission.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I apologize to Mike for taking this Thread from AIAC to ESHPA, but the door was opened by questions which I have more inside information about.

As far as fulfilling ESHPA's mission I think that this years speakers did that very well. As well as any year's speakers ever have. Many thanks to Aaron Morris and Pat Bono for lining up this list.

Peter Borst spoke on and showed pictures illustrating NYS Beekeeping History.
Dr. Jerry J. Bromenshenk presented talks about "Field Exposures to Clothianidin", "21st Century Beekeeping", and "Internet Beekeeping:Myths, Facts Fiction"
Dr. Beth Holloway on "Honeybee Breeding Research"
Kristine Jacobson an "Apitherapy Overview"
Don Nelson on "The Role of the NYS DEC pertaining to Apiculture"
Jim Ochterski spoke on "Honey Marketing: Selling Honey Like You Mean It"

Something for everyone and almost everyone who attended attended each talk. Very few were out in the halls visiting. I hope we can do as well in the future. I hope beesource beekeepers from NY and elsewhere will attend.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

mark
my thoughts were a lot different as to the speakers. If I was a hobby beekeeper with a few hives what would interest them at this meeting. go to a pa or sc/nc meeting and you will see how weak our org. is. sorry to hijack.


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## scokat (Apr 19, 2011)

I can attest to the Bee wellness classes. I am on the Board of Directors for the WNYHPA and we sent several members to be trained to give the Bee wellness seminars. Since they returned several years ago the WNYHPA has put on several bee wellness seminars, and each time the classes were booked full and all in attendance greatly appreciated the education and training. The vast majority of the membership of our association which is growing, is hobby beekeepers.

Wildbranch: when you get those meeting minutes could you send me an electronic copy that I could post on the WNYHPA site.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mark, I hope you are listening.


sqkcrk said:


> There is an attitude amongst many NY beekeepers that ESHPA is for the Commercials. That, in my personal opinion, not necessarily that of ESHPA itself, is a narrow and biased point of view. People who want to be involved in and want to influence what ESHPA is and does are welcome to attend meetings and to participate in the decision making process. Everyone's voice is welcome and will be heard. That has always been true and will be so going forward.


Every local club in NY gets a request to volunteer for the booth at the NYS fair. In 2011 I was at the booth. In 2012 I put my name in the hat and didn't get called. FYI it appeared to me that the "volunteers" were promoting their own honey not promoting bees. I don't sell honey but at the fair I sold a lot of it. Must of been the wrong honey or from the wrong beekeeper at the time. There is a reason why people think ESHPA is commercial. I don't mean to give you a headache just passing along my experience.



> I may be wrong about this, but it appears to me that most beekeepers in NY are not members of any Bee Club


Your not wrong. I will hazard a guess that most new beekeepers coming into the hobby or fad if you want to call it have a pie eyed enthusiasm about bees. Their bubble will get bursted on the first or second meeting on how to raise bees. If you don't do it their way you are the scum of the earth. The other half of the membership is only there to sell you something. It kinda makes me laugh when I hear these people saying these new people learn about bees in our classes and then we don't see them again. We need to charge more for our classes.

How stupid. You need to guide people on raising bees and not force your way on them when obviously they have no interest in your way.

I hope your head is not hurting. Seriously.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beeware10 said:


> mark
> my thoughts were a lot different as to the speakers. If I was a hobby beekeeper with a few hives what would interest them at this meeting. go to a pa or sc/nc meeting and you will see how weak our org. is. sorry to hijack.


Can u write more about what you experienced at a PA or a NC/SC meeting which was of interest to a hobby beekeeper with a few hives? I think you may have found Bromenshenks talk about landmine detecting bees of interest. Or his talk about internet beekeeping. Wouldn't you like to see photos and historical notes of NYS beekeeping 100 years ago?

During the banquets and breakfasts and breaks there is time for networking, getting to know other beekeepers. I've mentioned on beesource a number of time that anyone from beesource who identifies themselves to me at an ESHPA Fall Meeting is someone I would like to meet and to buy a drink for. To introduce around if I know you from here. To be an ice breaker for in effect.

I think over the last three years I have only had one, maybe two, who have done so. I think I still owe that person a drink. Was that you?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sqcrk: In an attempt to stay as positive as possible:


> There is an attitude amongst many NY beekeepers that ESHPA is for the Commercials. That, in my personal opinion, not necessarily that of ESHPA itself, is a narrow and biased point of view. People who want to be involved in and want to influence what ESHPA is and does are welcome to attend meetings and to participate in the decision making process. Everyone's voice is welcome and will be heard. That has always been true and will be so going forward.
> 
> I may be wrong about this, but it appears to me that most beekeepers in NY are not members of any Bee Club and that those that are members of a Local Bee Club have little time to spare to attend another Bee Club, taking a day off from work or deer season. Which is perfectly reasonable and understandable.
> 
> Therefore the folks whose livelihood depends on bees are most likely to attend and have the ability to set aside the time to do so. So, I think the makeup of the membership is natural and appropriate. I believe we do the best we can to keep in mind what is best for beekeepers in general w/ deference to those whose pocketbooks may be directly effected. And we don't have all of the Commercial beekeepers of NY in our membership.


it appears that your view maybe the one that is narrow and biased.
And excludes more than it includes.

Again, how does ESHPA fulfill its stated purpose?


> I believe we do the best we can to keep in mind what is best for beekeepers in general w/ deference to those whose pocketbooks may be directly effected


Where does the 30-40 hive beekeeper that also holds a regular job in order to make ends meet and feed his/her family fit into this scenario?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Perhaps you are correct. Perhaps my view is the one that is narrow and biased and excludes more than it includes. From where I sit I don't see it. Maybe someone could point it out to me. Unless you meant ESHPA and not me personally.

I guess if you don't see it, a place for the 40 hive beekeeper, then nothing I can say will make a difference. Sometimes you have to find your own way of fitting in if that's what you are looking for. There is only so much an organization can do. The rest is up to the individual person seeking a place at the table. That's what I did. I showed up and worked and asked to be nominated as a Regional Director and then was asked to be a VP and then was nominated to be President. Other than getting someone to nominate me for Northern Director I have not asked to move up I was pushed.

The bias I wrote of seems to me to be those w/ fewer hives looking down their noses at those w/ more hives as if they are bullys or something. Whereas, at least for some, they used to be admired. Not so much these days.

What part of ESHPA's purpose do you want me to address? Each and every point? Did I not address part of the question? Maybe I am not the right one to answer each and every point of ESHPA's purpose. I acknowledged that there is more we can and should do. More that I hope we will do. 

I don't know that we fully live up to all of the stated purposes. We probably don't. Would you care to help? Or care to help point out a way ESHPA could better fulfill its purposes? I certainly don't have all of the answers. I need your help.

You will always find my in box open to comments and suggestions. That doesn't mean you will always like my response. I can't please everyone. Not even myself all of the time.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Just simply looking for fair representation in an industry I make my living from, not looking to "fit in". 
The 'sugar and spice and everything is nice' approach leads me to believe my interests will be better represented elsewhere.
In the face of a rapidly changing bee/honey industry, good luck.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> I apologize to Mike for taking this Thread from AIAC to ESHPA, but the door was opened by questions which I have more inside information about.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

scokat said:


> Wildbranch: when you get those meeting minutes could you send me an electronic copy that I could post on the WNYHPA site.


will do, not sure exactly when they will be made available.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> There is an attitude amongst many NY beekeepers that ESHPA is for the Commercials. That, in my personal opinion, not necessarily that of ESHPA itself, is a narrow and biased point of view. People who want to be involved in and want to influence what ESHPA is and does are welcome to attend meetings and to participate in the decision making process. Everyone's voice is welcome and will be heard. That has always been true and will be so going forward.
> 
> I may be wrong about this, but it appears to me that most beekeepers in NY are not members of any Bee Club and that those that are members of a Local Bee Club have little time to spare to attend another Bee Club, taking a day off from work or deer season. Which is perfectly reasonable and understandable.


>People who want to be involved in and want to influence what ESHPA is and does are welcome to attend meetings and to participate in the decision making process. Everyone's >voice is welcome and will be heard. That has always been true and will be so going forward.

since I'm the member that goes deer hunting I have to use the meeting information that is sent out. Everyones voice is welcome and will be heard doesn't mean they will be equal.

from the minutes summer 2012

To pull this all together, we all respectfully had our say and voted on the updated Standard of Identity for Honey, at the summer picnic at Dyce Lab in 2010. Since then there have been false representations, effective employment of lobby groups, and a general disregard of proper procedure to overturn a clear directive made by our membership. Cheers,
Aaron

from the information I have been able to find, the above lobby groups managed to stop the SOI and get the sponsorship removed and it now sits in limbo.
> from the same report 
Another concern has been about the moisture content in honey, something which should not be a factor in determining honey purity, Dave Hackenberg says.
> from the information I have been able to find out, Mr. Hackenberg wanted the moisture content set in the middle 20's.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Acebird said:


> I will hazard a guess that most new beekeepers coming into the hobby or fad if you want to call it have a pie eyed enthusiasm about bees. Their bubble will get bursted on the first or second meeting on how to raise bees. If you don't do it their way you are the scum of the earth. The other half of the membership is only there to sell you something. It kinda makes me laugh when I hear these people saying these new people learn about bees in our classes and then we don't see them again. We need to charge more for our classes.
> 
> How stupid. You need to guide people on raising bees and not force your way on them when obviously they have no interest in your way.


There are many new and old beeks that are not members of clubs, but don't assume that is do to lack of interest. A new bee club was formed in SYracuse last year, and at last count there were over 60 new members. And part of the reason after the class you don't see them any more is that the Syracuse club has mid york members and the beeks were being encouraged to take the mid york class.
as to the make up of the club, my guess is 90% are new beeks that are trying to go treatment free as that is what is being recommended by the members that do most of the speaking. One of the reasons that many people joined is, ny is a large state and getting to other clubs is too time consuming, so the club filled a need. One guess as to why you didn't get called for the Fair is one of the members at the Syracuse club is from ESHPA and I think he got most everyone over three meeting to sign up, so no fear I would guess you can get back in next year.
As Mark said b/4, I really don't see to many of the new members joining ESHPA, and most of the old members were members in the past but not members now. Next meeting I'll ask them why and post.

As to the other half being there trying to sell you something, Is that a bad thing? there was a real need this year for nucs and packages at the Syracuse club and very few people
that could supply the bees etc, but someone went and did the homework for them and made multiple recommendations so they had a choice. If the older beeks had known that the demand was going to be that much, some would have ordered in some queens and helped supply them, but I don't see that as a bad thing?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> Just simply looking for fair representation in an industry I make my living from, not looking to "fit in".
> The 'sugar and spice and everything is nice' approach leads me to believe my interests will be better represented elsewhere.
> In the face of a rapidly changing bee/honey industry, good luck.


Representation to whom? I really think you should get involved and not just sit out there in the nether reaches all alone. Band together and try to make a difference.

Sugar and spice approach? I guess one sees what one does from where one sits. I don't see sugar and spice at all. I see lots of hard work. Join us and try it some time and you will see what I mean. Just getting off of the island to attend a meeting is hard work. I've been to your island a number of times. It's a trip. Something everyone should experience.

You have asked some challenging questions which indicate to me what I should know and what I don't know well enough. Thank you.

I intend to do the best job that I can as President of the Board of Directors of the ESHPA. To do what I can to get ESHPA to better live up to its purposes. What are you, a NY State beekeeper, going to do to make me? I hope someone like you will do more than just stand out in the yard.

The least you can do is contact Donal Peterson (Donal is not a typo, it's his name) and ask him your questions too. Join the Long Island Beekeepers Club and be involved.

"In the face of a rapidly changing bee/honey industry, good luck." Seems like you are saying good by. I hope not. You seem to have a number of good questions deserving of answers.

I'm at my Son's in VA and your questions remind me of something he told me about where he works. "Bring up a problem, bring a solution." What is your solution? Mine is to show up and work at it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mike,
I can't intelligently discuss SOI. It's a passionate bone of contention w/in the association, is how I see it. Bottom line is the association finally agreed not to support the Legislation.

Personally I don't have strong feelings for or against SOI. I have many wishes about how things went and didn't. But that is what's past. Nothing to do but move forward as an association as best we can.

One membership one vote, how more equal can there be. We run things using the democractic process. Everyone who shows up to a meeting, w/ the exception of Board meetings, is allowed to speak from the floor and to their fellow members when off of the floor. I don't know how the association could be more equal. 

Members not on the Board who wish to speak at a Board meeting may do so when recognized by the Chair. Otherwise things too easily get out of hand and lengthen the meeting. Some board meetings last all day w/ a lunch break.

Outside of ESHPA members are free to do what they wish just as they are in the rest of society. Only not under the guise of representing ESHPA. A number of members are also influential Farm Bureau members. W/out Farm Bureau support what shows up in the Ag Committee in the State Legislature doesn't go anywhere. That's how things work in NY. What are we to do?

If you ever get your deer early in the morning I expect to see you at the General Meeting Friday afternoon. Bloody trousers and all. Okay?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> If you ever get your deer early in the morning I expect to see you at the General Meeting Friday afternoon. Bloody trousers and all. Okay?


sounds good, I'll buy you a drink, oh wait I'll have to wait until after the meeting.:s


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Who says? Nothing in our By Laws about that.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Mark, I hope you are listening.
> 
> 
> Every local club in NY gets a request to volunteer for the booth at the NYS fair. In 2011 I was at the booth. In 2012 I put my name in the hat and didn't get called. FYI it appeared to me that the "volunteers" were promoting their own honey not promoting bees. I don't sell honey but at the fair I sold a lot of it. Must of been the wrong honey or from the wrong beekeeper at the time. There is a reason why people think ESHPA is commercial. I don't mean to give you a headache just passing along my experience.
> ...


Yeah, I listened. Just to let you know I read what you wrote.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

clyderoad said:


> Just simply looking for fair representation in an industry I make my living from, not looking to "fit in".


Clyde in our democratic society we have one group representing every interest, Congress. When the interest are varied it doesn't work so well. Rules and laws are made based on two things, money and votes. It you don't have a lot of money you have to have a lot of votes.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

wildbranch2007 said:


> Another concern has been about the moisture content in honey, something which should not be a factor in determining honey purity, Dave Hackenberg says.
> > from the information I have been able to find out, Mr. Hackenberg wanted the moisture content set in the middle 20's.


I don't understand the > within this quote. Where did this come from and who said it? Moisture content doesn't factor into honey purity? Since when? Why would Hackenberg want it set well above the 95.5 % of all U.S. honeys? Sounds fishy to me.

"The earlier U.S. Food and Drug Act defined honey as “the nectar and saccharine exudation of plants, gathered, modified, and stored in the comb by honey bees (_Apis mellifera_ and _A. dorsata_); is levorotatory; contains not more than 25% water, not more than 0.25% ash, and not more than 8% sucrose.” The limits established in this definition were largely based on a survey published in 1908. Today, this definition has an advisory status only, but is not totally correct, as it allows too high a content of water and sucrose,"

"In the 490 samples of honey analyzed in the Department’s Technical Bulletin 1261, the average moisture content was 17.2 percent. Samples ranged between 13.4 and 22.9 percent, and the standard deviation was 1.46. This means that 68 percent of the samples (or of all U.S. honey) will fall within the limits of 17.2 ± 1.46 percent moisture (15.7 – 18.7); 95.5 percent of all U.S. honey will fall within the limits of 17.2 ± 2.92 percent moisture (14.3 – 20.1)."

BEEKEEPING IN THE UNITED STATES
AGRICULTURE HANDBOOK NUMBER 335
Revised October 1980

http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/honey-composition-and-properties/


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How does naturally occurring high moisture content in honey effect purity? Moisture content of some honeys may be as high as 25% and still qualify as honey, according to what was written in the link. So, it's still honey, isn't it? It isn't anything anyone would bottle and put on a store shelf. Does that mean it should not br sold to someone who knows what it is and wants to buy it?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

25% moisture in honey is at the EXTREME end. Are you telling me that David's honey measures this, in the comb, capped? It's very suspicious for someone like him to be pushing for this. Sounds more like a way for a big producer to be able to take unripened honey off and still pass for honey. At some point, nectar turns to honey. Moisture plays a big part in that. What's the reason behind raising the moisture limit?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Who raised the moisture limit? It's right there in the link you sighted. 25% is the cutoff beyond which the material isn't honey.

I have never handled honey w/ moisture content that high, but that simply means it is not something w/ which I have experience.

It is still honey, isn't it?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

funny I was more expecting a reaction to a beek from Penn. having input on the NY SOI. And b/4 mark starts on me, I know other Penn. beeks that belong to the club, and they all have bees in N.Y. I know small scale bee keepers this year that were having a real problem with there honey being over 18 %, and they could separate out the uncapped from the fully capped. I'm sure the large operations don't have that option, I do know some that did use dehumidifiers to lower the % this fall. 

the > is my comment on what was in the minuets of the meeting.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Mark, read my quote in post #56. DH wanted to raise the moisture limit. Are you saying there shouldn't be a limit? How do you define nectar from honey?

Finishing reading the quote, Mark.

"Today, this definition has an advisory status only, but is not totally correct, as it allows too high a content of water and sucrose,"


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> from the minutes summer 2012
> 
> > from the same report
> Another concern has been about the moisture content in honey, something which should not be a factor in determining honey purity, Dave Hackenberg says.


Barry, this is a statement about something that someone says about what David Hackenberg said. It is hardly a full and fully in context statement. You should ask David Hackenberg about what someone said he said.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> Mark, read my quote in post #56. DH wanted to raise the moisture limit. Are you saying there shouldn't be a limit? How do you define nectar from honey?
> 
> Finishing reading the quote, Mark.
> 
> "Today, this definition has an advisory status only, but is not totally correct, as it allows too high a content of water and sucrose,"


Yes, there should be a limit and there is a limit. 25%. How does anyone know from what has been sighted that David Hackenberg wanted to do anything. He simply commented on purity.

How do I define honey? I guess I would define honey as is done in your link.

"but is not totally correct"? According to whom? To what standard? What is not "correct"? What does this have to do w/ AIAC or ESHPA? ESHPA doesn't suport or advocate against a Honey SOI.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I admit, who said what is confusing from the way it's presented, but it still brings up a critical issue that beekeepers need to address, regardless of who said what.

What is the allowable max. moisture in honey? Where is this in print?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

In your link maybe?

What I read there was that 25% moisture content honey is Federally Rated as Grade D Honey, aka substandard honey. But it is still honey. Just like some beekeepers may be rated as substandard, aka below the highest standard. Doesn't mean they aren't beekeepers.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Did you notice the date of that reference? 1908

Best I can tell, 21.9 is the max.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

And this:

http://www.eshpa.org/index.php/nys-honey-definition/honey-definition-q-a-a

* 11) Q- Why is the moisture content 18.6%?*
* A*- Honey will ferment over 18.6% moisture. The Federal Honey Loan program required that honey be no higher than 18.6% moisture. Using a refractometer is good business practice, to ensure quality control of your product. There are many methods, for both small & large scale honey production, to reduce the moisture if it is high. North Carolina's honey standard of identity has a limit of 18.6%.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> Did you notice the date of that reference? 1908
> 
> Best I can tell, 21.9 is the max.


No, I did not. If it is out of date, why did you reference it?

Okay, 21.9%. Fine by me. What happens when someone wants and is willing to pay for that or higher moisture honey? Should they be disallowed that right?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> And this:
> 
> http://www.eshpa.org/index.php/nys-honey-definition/honey-definition-q-a-a
> 
> ...


This is why there has been so much heated discussion about the NYS Honey SOI. Do we need one? Why? What is wrong or incomplete about current legislation, just because it is old? What will such Legislation lead to?

And perhaps most important to those beekeepers who produce large quantities of honey. Who would an SOI effect the most?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> Okay, 21.9%. Fine by me. What happens when someone wants and is willing to pay for that or higher moisture honey?


Not at all, but, how do you know it is still honey at higher % moisture and not just nectar? Nectar isn't honey and vis versa. I see nothing wrong with a standard for honey. Why not have one? Especially in light of all the adulterated stuff that gets on the market.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> Not at all, but, how do you know it is still honey at higher % moisture and not just nectar? Nectar isn't honey and vis versa. I see nothing wrong with a standard for honey. Why not have one? Especially in light of all the adulterated stuff that gets on the market.


Who wants to know? Neither you nor I will be buying high moisture honey, will we? So what does it matter?

Not to simply answer a question w/ a question, but why have one? What is wrong w/ the way things are?

Isn't all of that adulterated stuff address sufficiently by current law?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Who wants to know, I do! 

"Neither you nor I will be buying high moisture honey, will we?" I have no way of knowing. Before we can call it "high moisture honey", we have to define when is honey, honey and not nectar. You keep avoiding that question.  Seems pretty fundamental to me. If what bees gathered was already honey, there wouldn't be any gray areas. But there is a metamorphosis that takes place between nectar and honey. Perhaps what some honey actually is, is honey mixed with nectar.

"What is wrong w/ the way things are?"
I don't know, but according to wildbranch, a commercial beekeeper is quoted as wanting things changed.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The source is quoting incomplete thought. That's not what I would base an argument upon.

Honey is nectar gathered from flowers or honeydew and processed by bees extracted from honeycomb.

I may not know what honey is, but I know it when I see it. If I don't, I don't buy it. I buy honey from people I know and have some confidence in and understanding of. Or, off the store shelf and willing to take the risk inherent therein. What's the big deal?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Go in peace and enjoy your Thanksgiving!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Does that mean it should not br sold to someone who knows what it is and wants to buy it?


Honey lacks "traceability" and "shelf life" requirements that all other foods require. If it is known that honey ferments above certain moisture levels then "shelf life" should be a requirement for selling that honey. If it is defined that honey must be below a certain moisture percentage than anything above that point is not honey.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Honey lacks "traceability" and "shelf life" requirements that all other foods require.


Really?? :scratch: :s Was this in your engineering books also? 

Here is one example of honey date coding and traceability:


> Burleson's retail products will [HIGHLIGHT]have a code date [/HIGHLIGHT] found at the top of the nutritional label (back panel). It is normally printed in black and begins with a letter followed by four numbers. This represents the month and date of manufacturing. We [HIGHLIGHT] use this to track our production lots and as a precaution if we were ever to have to recall the product. [/HIGHLIGHT]
> 
> Bottles are printed with a coded date on the day of packaging. Shipping cartons are printed with the actual pack date in mm/dd/yy format. The printing of the bottles will be with a small character human-readable dot character code. The code is as follows:
> 
> ...



Have you ever thought about doing some _research _before you make these foolish statements? 


:gh:


... anyone ever see _freeze/thaw_ damage to concrete ... 

.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Barry said:


> "What is wrong w/ the way things are?"
> I don't know, but according to wildbranch, a commercial beekeeper is quoted as wanting things changed.


hey don't get me involved in this:waiting:
I'm going back to figuring out what I have to do to register my truck as commercial, that's confusing enough.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Are you saying that what you posted isn't accurate?

There's a bigger issue I tried to get Mark to see, but failed. As an industry (forget DH), what determines the acceptable limits, in this case % moisture, to call something honey? I'll argue, if someone wants to set it at 25%, why not 35%? If there is no boundary/limit, then nectar could be sold as honey. I know Mark has said in another thread that if one can turn a frame of partially capped honey over and have some drip out, it's not ready to harvest. Why be concerned about this if it's all honey? Obviously it's an issue of too much moisture, and too much moisture creates an inferior product. And at some point, it's actually nectar, not honey.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Barry said:


> Are you saying that what you posted isn't accurate?


what I posted is 100% accurate, as long as the minuets of the meeting that were included in the newsletter are accurate, it was copied directly out of the newsletter. The whole argument at this point is irrelevant in NY, i would think. From what I have been able to determine(my opinion), was ESHPA thought SOI was a fine way to make sure Chinese honey was kept out of NY,raising the price of the honey, when wording got include that might have an affect on them, they squashed the whole thing. not surprising nor unexpected. and certain people went outside of ESHPA to the Farm Bureau to get it squashed. The moisture content was just one of the argument to get it squashed.
As a small time beek, I can extract only capped comb, most of these commercial guys have machines that dump the whole box of frames in, so they don't pull out uncapped honey.
watching commercial yards near mine you can see the problem happening, for instance this year one yard had a deep brood chamber, queen excluder, and 4 deeps on top for honey supers during the fall flow, the fall flow was terrible, how many of those frames were full and capped and how many weren't capped, they all got extracted I bet, and the yard had 80 hives in it.
I do have to give ESHPA credit, pretty much everything I have posted here was copied out of their newsletters, so they do not try to hide any facts from anyone, I will give them credit for that! as I said in a previous post, they are meeting my expectations, not representing what I would like to see done, but I have not attended the meetings to express my views(but I personnely don't feel that in this club my views would be the majority). 
If sideline and smaller beeks were truly interested they would join the club, run people for the offices, and vote out the people that don't represent there wants and needs.
It would be a simple process, the two clubs I belong to have a combined membership of more than the ESHPA has right now, but as I said b/4 the interest is not here.

A quote from acebird that in truth seems to be the mind set from what I have been able to determine.
Mike, I am not politically oriented to beat my head against the wall with bureaucrats. The Big Apple pretty much runs the state even what affect agriculture. I don't think there is enough of an economic impact on the state with bees to get them excited about anything

As I said in another post, If people are interested when I talked to the Ag people, the AIAC is composed of the same people because no one else has asked to get on it, I have asked, it is designed so that equal parts comm, sideliner, and novice are included, there is no requirement that you belong to the ESHPA that I can find, feel free to contact them and get on the committee, And I have no idea if it would help anything, but I do know one thing, It sure can't hurt, and has already helped in that they have proposed sending copies of there meeting minuets out. 

this whole thread started out just trying to find out what/where the AIAC was, trying to find out what/who stopped the SOI, I have accomplished what I started out to do, really has no effect on me as a small scale beek, do apologize to Mark, didn't think the question would put Mark in the cross hairs, but hopefully the information may help him with his job the next couple of year. gotta go shovel snow again! Mark I better make that two drinks, doubles if you prefer.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

wildbranch2007 said:


> didn't think the question would put Mark in the cross hairs,


Hey, it's good practice for the top dog! Don't go easy on him. lol


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wildbranch2007 said:


> As a small time beek, I can extract only capped comb, most of these commercial guys have machines that dump the whole box of frames in, so they don't pull out uncapped honey.
> watching commercial yards near mine you can see the problem happening, for instance this year one yard had a deep brood chamber, queen excluder, and 4 deeps on top for honey supers during the fall flow, the fall flow was terrible, how many of those frames were full and capped and how many weren't capped, they all got extracted I bet, and the yard had 80 hives in it.


So, because it isn't capped means it isn't ripe? Not necessarily.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

I probably should have included the link to the newsletter so you can see everything that was said:

http://eshpa.org/archive/Summer 2012.pdf

when rereading I also found this, 

The fourth motion was made by Bill Roome, and seconded by Pat Bono, to offer a free year’s ESHPA membership to anyone purchasing a beginner beekeeping kit from a major supply company. The motion was unanimously passed. Dadant, Betterbee, and Brushy Mountain were suggested for consideration of this promotion.

> but I'm not sure what ever happened with it, would seem to have helped get more member's, especially if the bee clubs that offer classes knew about it.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> So, because it isn't capped means it isn't ripe? Not necessarily.


and I have reports from people that capped honey can ferment to, and have even heard of people that have tested there honey and below 18% and had it fermented.
thats why I test mine, but if above 18.x% sell it to people that make it into terrible tasting products like "mead":thumbsup:


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wildbranch2007 said:


> thats why I test mine, but if above 18.x% sell it to people that make it into terrible tasting products like "mead":thumbsup:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> Are you saying that what you posted isn't accurate?
> 
> There's a bigger issue I tried to get Mark to see, but failed. As an industry (forget DH), what determines the acceptable limits, in this case % moisture, to call something honey? I'll argue, if someone wants to set it at 25%, why not 35%? If there is no boundary/limit, then nectar could be sold as honey. I know Mark has said in another thread that if one can turn a frame of partially capped honey over and have some drip out, it's not ready to harvest. Why be concerned about this if it's all honey? Obviously it's an issue of too much moisture, and too much moisture creates an inferior product. And at some point, it's actually nectar, not honey.


How have we ever gotten thus far as beekeepers that we now wonder if what we produce and sell is really honey or not?

If we as beekeepers don't know if what we are producing is honey or not than maybe we should be doing something else and let those who know produce the honey.

When does nectar become honey Barry? I think you would agree w/ me that before a bee sucks it out of a flower nectar is nectar. Right? So, when does it become honey? What makes it honey? Is it honey when a bee squirts it into a honeycomb cell? Or is it still nectar? I would say it is unripe honey. Unripe honey, not nectar.

I don't extract unripe honey. I don't have the means to handle it. I would be too concerned that it would ferment. Then what would I do w/ it. So, just because I can't handle it, should I tell others they have no right to do so? Why should I have the authority to tell another businessman what they cannot do?

If it rains out of a cell it isn't ready to harvest? Right. Would you have me say, "It's honey. Go ahead."?

What about honeys that are naturally high moisture? Are we supposed to tell other beekeepers that they are breaking the law producing something they have produced and sold for generations?

Barry,
I would argue that what is practical to do and what is economically feasible has determined so far what can be called honey and sold as such, at the producer to packer level of business. If SueBee was willing to accept 25% moisture content honey would you say they can't because it doesn't meet your definition?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks Mike. Don't have two on my account. Only if you feel you need to.

Why would anyone extract empty comb? I think you underestimate commercial handling of combs. Were one to run all of the combs from that yard thru the extractors they would be unbalanced much of the time and not run well. I don't care how automated a system one runs, that doesn't make sense.

One thing I can almost 100% gaurantee you is if you would come to a meeting and stand to make a comment at the General Business Meeting your right to speak would be upheld. And even listened to. That's all anyone should expect in a democracy. Isn't that right?

Some people, not Mike, seem to think that since their words didn't sway the argument then there is no reason to participate anymore. Gonna take my ball and go home, is what I call that. One never knows how much one's words actually effect things. If one person speaks another may be bolstered to speak too. And another and so on. But if no one speaks, if no one shows up, why do people complain that things are always the same and nothing changes and the same people are in control? What do people expect?

Just to let everyone in on something that's exactly what I said to some people who were complaining about the way things were w/ ESHPA. If you don't like the way things are get involved. Don't just sit there complaining.

Like DanielY's tag line says, "Stand for something even if you stand alone." And I will ad that if you do you will find that you don't stand alone, eventually.

Mike, even if you don't get to any of our meetings this year, and I hope you do, your voice has been heard. ESHPA no longer allows proxie voting, but if there is something you want read for you from the floor write it out and send it to me and I will see that it is read out loud. But please make the effort to attend.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

According to USDA standards, here:
http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3011895

US Grade A honey can have up to 18.6% moisture.
US Grade B honey can have up to 18.6% moisture.
US Grade C honey can have up to 20.0% moisture.
US Grade Substandard can exceed 20.0% moisture

Of course, there are other factors besides moisture that affect honey grades. See the link.

If you want to sell honey labeled as "_*Substandard*_", there is a legal way to do so.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> Hey, it's good practice for the top dog! Don't go easy on him. lol


I told my family last night about becoming President of ESHPA. My Sister asked how I was going to keep all of those 200 some people happy. "Not my job.", I said. "They are responsible for their own happiness. My job is to run meetings and to remain neutral. Not to make anyone happy, let alone everyone."


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> According to USDA standards, here:
> http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3011895
> 
> US Grade A honey can have up to 18.6% moisture.
> ...


I assume that you would agree that it is still honey, right Rader?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> How have we ever gotten thus far as beekeepers that we now wonder if what we produce and sell is really honey or not?


I take it your not in favor of a SOI?



> So, when does it become honey? What makes it honey? Is it honey when a bee squirts it into a honeycomb cell? Or is it still nectar? I would say it is unripe honey. Unripe honey, not nectar.


You would say this, but you're only guessing. I don't know myself when one becomes the other. Perhaps if you, as an association, are going to pass a definition of honey, you would want to know this.



> I don't extract unripe honey. I don't have the means to handle it. I would be too concerned that it would ferment. Then what would I do w/ it. So, just because I can't handle it, should I tell others they have no right to do so? Why should I have the authority to tell another businessman what they cannot do?


Because as a society, we expect most everything to be defined as to what "it" is. We set standards. Why should honey not have any? You will be setting authority over producers if an SOI is accepted. According to your newsletter, the feeling is, an SOI is a good thing. In it, you state:

_The nectar from flowers listed such as Alfalfa, citrus, lavender, etc are internationally known exceptions to the 5% sucrose rule; all other blossom honeys should have no more than 5% sucrose._

So you already put limitations on sucrose. Why are you telling businessmen they can't have 6% sucrose? Why the apparent lack of concern on your part when someone wants to do away with any limitations on moisture %?



> We all know nectar has a far higher moisture content than ripened honey.


What is the moisture content of nectar? 



> What about honeys that are naturally high moisture? Are we supposed to tell other beekeepers that they are breaking the law producing something they have produced and sold for generations?


95.5 percent of all U.S. honey will fall within 14.3 – 20.1 % moisture. What are these 4.5% of honeys and what is the % moisture? I think it's a non issue.



> I would argue that what is practical to do and what is economically feasible has determined so far what can be called honey and sold as such, at the producer to packer level of business. If SueBee was willing to accept 25% moisture content honey would you say they can't because it doesn't meet your definition?


I don't care about SueBee's standards. They mix wet and dry honey to get what they sell. A honey standard would be for any honey trading hands. From producer to packer. Producer to consumer. Packer to consumer. If definitions/standards are set so loose that everything meets it, it's worthless to have the standard.

Good luck with this topic within your club. Will be interesting to see where it goes. Always a pleasure engaging in debate with you.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> I assume that you would agree that it is still honey, right Rader?

I certainly am *not *an expert  on honey standards, but my interpretation from reading the USDA document is that a certain viscous substance harvested from beehives, exceeding 20% moisture is still _honey_, assuming it meets the other conditions covered in the USDA standards.

:lookout:

However, selling honey labeled as "*Substandard*" is not in _*my *_business plan.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I see no real need for a Honey SOI.

I see no real need for further discussion of a Honey SOI w/in ESHPA. But I am sure it will be discussed.

When do you go back to work?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > I assume that you would agree that it is still honey, right Rader?
> 
> I certainly am *not *an expert  on honey standards, but my interpretation from reading the USDA document is that a certain viscous substance harvested from beehives, exceeding 20% moisture is still _honey_, assuming it meets the other conditions covered in the USDA standards.
> 
> ...


So you have no opinion as to whether substandard honey is honey or not?

You seem to like to Post links, letting people assume that they represent your opinion or position. An interesting way to do things.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> Hey, it's good practice for the top dog! Don't go easy on him. lol


I want to know how he is going to have time to do his splits.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> You seem to like to Post links, letting people assume that they represent your opinion or position. An interesting way to do things.


I post links, and quotes from links, so people can read and make up their own minds. 

Certainly, at times, I post links to support a position I have taken. The alternative is to just "make stuff up", as _some _have suggested in other threads. :lookout:


I post plenty of links without taking a position on the material presented. I don't see why anyone would have an issue with that, as long as the linked material were relevant to the subject under discussion.

In the past, I have been attacked for presenting a Wikipedia link that outlined the variance of actual lumber dimensions from their "nominal" sizes. The member involved felt that it was "_unnecessary_" to provide such a link in the discussion. Why is an actual reference a bad thing? :scratch:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't care how automated a system one runs, that doesn't make sense.


Mark, just so you are aware, you can put a harmonic balancer on a rotor and it will self balance any unbalanced load. I don't know if it is done on beekeeping equipment but I know it can be done.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I want to know how he is going to have time to do his splits.


Walk away Brian, walk away.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I post links, and quotes from links, so people can read and make up their own minds.
> 
> Certainly, at times, I post links to support a position I have taken. The alternative is to just "make stuff up", as _some _have suggested in other threads. :lookout:
> 
> ...


Not saying it normally is, but it isn't an answer to what I thought was a direct question. A request for your personal opinion. Is something called substandard honey honey? Some people seem to think it is not and should not be allowed to be sold as honey.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Alright I am going to show my ignorance. What is SOI? At first I thought it was an organization. Now I am thinking it is a standard.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Standard of Identity


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks Barry. A standard is useless unless there is a governing body. That requires funding and most beekeepers will resist. It will only happen if the consumer demands it. If the consumer wants to buy junk and they usually do all the peeing and moaning is just an exercise.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Walk away Brian, walk away.


Now that ain't right.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I suspect that not everyone will be pleased with me demonstrating my ability to link relevant sites, but here goes anyway: :lookout:

A page that describes the [proposed] New York honey "standard of identity".
http://www.rochesterhoney.com/Proposed_NY__Standard.html

_*I am providing the link, not pushing one side or the other! *_



Mark, I really don't have a dog in the fight as to to what NY defines as "honey". If we were talking about Tennessee, the situation might be different.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> A request for your personal opinion. Is something called substandard honey honey? Some people seem to think it is not and should not be allowed to be sold as honey.


Speaking for myself, that's not the issue. You're not wanting any standards. I'm questioning the wisdom of making standards so loose they become substandard. Call it what it is, honey outside of an acceptable standard is substandard. Then producers of substandard honey can sell it to packers who dilute it with standard honey. It hasn't changed, we just don't get as much of it in the jar we buy off the store shelf. 

Back to work, not soon enough! How about you, when do you go back to work?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Acebird said:


> Thanks Barry. A standard is useless unless there is a governing body. That requires funding and most beekeepers will resist.


not true, that's one of the reasons I would "guess" most people would be against a SOI. If I remember correctly as soon as Florida had an SOI, the lawyers started suing target etc
because the honey didn't meet the SOI. They would go were the deep pockets are, I don't have a clue of what the outcome was, but just assume that target and walmart etc said the heck with it, don't make any money selling it anyway, so they stopped selling it, who would get killed, not you or me, the packers and commercial beeks probably. I would venture a guess that what I could sell honey for would go up, and the amount I could sell would also go up, now that means I have to start more hives, find more yards, extract longer:
I think I'm not sure an SOI would be good for me, I would start making to much money and Soc. Sec would doc my check


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

wild==produce more or buy it in.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I suspect that not everyone will be pleased with me demonstrating my ability to link relevant sites, but here goes anyway: :lookout:
> 
> A page that describes the [proposed] New York honey "standard of identity".
> http://www.rochesterhoney.com/Proposed_NY__Standard.html
> ...


Okay, and I do appreciate your abilities and willingness to participate the way you do, but since you mentioned it. What is your stance on a TN Honey SOI ? Pro? Con? Why?

While on my walk I thought to ask you for a Maple SOI and a Sugar SOI. Are there such things? I bet Barry can figure out when sap turns into syrup. But what about when cane turns into sugar. Isn't sugar always sugar only that granulated sugar is different from sugar still in the cane?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> Then producers of substandard honey can sell it to packers who dilute it with standard honey. It hasn't changed, we just don't get as much of it in the jar we buy off the store shelf.


You aren't advocating regulation of practices are you?
How is taking high moisture honey and blending it w/ low moisture honey, a standard industry practice of long standing, considered dilution? Is it diluting the low moisture honey? Is there something bad about that? 

I don't understand. You don't get as much of what in the jar? Honey? One pound jars of honey have one pound of honey in them don't they? What am I missing?

I am at work.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sqcrk== your comments on this thread have made your position on a variety of issues abundantly clear to me. They are not positions I agree with or care to support in any way. Frankly, I am astonished at many of them. 

If I am 'some people', which it appears I am, bringing my views to the ESHPA is tantamount to rolling the boulder up the mountain. Please don't assume that ESHPA is the only venue available to effect change and influence policy and practices, and that I am not passionate about this issue. Your current views and the present agenda of ESHPA is crystal clear to me.


> Some people, not Mike, seem to think that since their words didn't sway the argument then there is no reason to participate anymore. Gonna take my ball and go home, is what I call that. One never knows how much one's words actually effect things. If one person speaks another may be bolstered to speak too. And another and so on. But if no one speaks, if no one shows up, why do people complain that things are always the same and nothing changes and the same people are in control? What do people expect?
> 
> Just to let everyone in on something that's exactly what I said to some people who were complaining about the way things were w/ ESHPA. If you don't like the way things are get involved. Don't just sit there complaining.


Again, good luck.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> I bet Barry can figure out when sap turns into syrup. But what about when cane turns into sugar. Isn't sugar always sugar only that granulated sugar is different from sugar still in the cane?


Sap isn't syrup. It requires processing to become maple syrup, for which there are standards.

_(a) “Honey” means the natural sweet substance produced by honeybees from the nectar of
plants or excretions of plant sucking insects on the living parts of plants, which the bees
collect, transform by combining with specific substances of their own, deposit, dehydrate,
store, and leave in the honeycomb to ripen and mature. _

Right there it's clear, Nectar isn't honey. Bees are required to convert nectar into honey, and one of those elements is _dehydrating_ it.



> I am at work.


Come on, only I can claim being on the forum as work.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> sqcrk== your comments on this thread have made your position on a variety of issues abundantly clear to me. They are not positions I agree with or care to support in any way. Frankly, I am astonished at many of them.
> 
> [my reply: I can't keep everybody happy. I am not about to try. If you are astonished then you don't know me and seem not to care to know me or participate on a meaningful level.]
> 
> ...


Why do you always seem to be saying "Good by"? Your "Again, good luck." seems dismissive. Maybe that's just me.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> What is your stance on a TN Honey SOI ? Pro? Con? Why?


I don't see how I can answer your questions without first having a "TN Honey SOI" document to _read _and discuss. As far as I am aware, there is no such thing on the table. 

A summary of *TN *honey regulation and links is here:
http://cheathambees.blogspot.com/2012/07/selling-your-honey-and-bee-products-tn.html


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> Sap isn't syrup. It requires processing to become maple syrup, for which there are standards.
> 
> _(a) “Honey” means the natural sweet substance produced by honeybees from the nectar of
> plants or excretions of plant sucking insects on the living parts of plants, which the bees
> ...


Besides the fact that there was no mention of the enzymes added by the bee when honey is regergitated what's wrong w/ what you just quoted? Why does it have to be written into Law?

I bet I am going to hear about this discussion at our next meeting. My tenure may be short lived.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> Come on, only I can claim being on the forum as work.


Are you collecting workers comp for your foot? Can you collect workers comp from one job and pay from another? If this is you at work, where have you been the last 14 years? Asked w/ love.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I don't see how I can answer your questions without first having a "TN Honey SOI" document to _read _and discuss. As far as I am aware, there is no such thing on the table.
> 
> A summary of *TN *honey regulation and links is here:
> http://cheathambees.blogspot.com/2012/07/selling-your-honey-and-bee-products-tn.html


Very carefully stated Rader. I probably should be more cautious myself.

That link says nothing about honey or what it is, only what regulations exist pertaining to selling honey. But thanks.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sqkcrk==


> Maybe that's just me


It is.
Good bye means good bye.
Good luck does not mean good bye.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> what's wrong w/ what you just quoted?


Nothing. There is more, however, to the SOI that further explains how that is interpreted.

_3. Honey shall not contain more than 18.6 percent moisture content. _:thumbsup:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> What am I missing?


carbs, vs. water. Maybe you can relate to butter fat for milk.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> Are you collecting workers comp for your foot? Can you collect workers comp from one job and pay from another? If this is you at work, where have you been the last 14 years? Asked w/ love.


:applause: That's funny!! Foot was injured at home, not on the job.

Sorry Mark, it's just a lot more fun to spar with you than sit here and stare at the walls. I'll go back in hiding before too long.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> Nothing. There is more, however, to the SOI that further explains how that is interpreted.
> 
> _3. Honey shall not contain more than 18.6 percent moisture content. _:thumbsup:


Are you lobbying IL State Legislature for a Honey SOI?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> How is taking high moisture honey and blending it w/ low moisture honey, a standard industry practice of long standing, considered dilution? Is it diluting the low moisture honey? Is there something bad about that?


Blending can be done but it makes the traceability requirement so much more complicated. If you want to prevent adulterated honey from coming into the country you really have to have controls on blending. I didn't say not allowed, but controlled. Many people that would want SOI would not want regulation and controls placed on them. I don't see how you can have one with out the other.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> Are you lobbying IL State Legislature for a Honey SOI?


No. It doesn't impact me, but I wouldn't be against it. I'm not a lobby/committee/board sorta guy. I don't have the patience for the politics involved with these. I'll live vicariously through you on this topic.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Reminds me of someone who stood up in a meeting arguing their point about something that was going to be addressed in the State Legislature who when asked why they didn't write a letter, make a phone call, or attend a rally answered, "Oh, I don't get involved in messy politics." "Well then, what do you call what you are doing right now?", was the reply. 

If not you, then who? If not now, when? I often bite my tongue because people don't like hearing it, but, if you aren't going to do something about what you don't like whatcha belly achin' for? Or do people mostly like throwing stones? Griping?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Oh, I hear you bellyache about a lot of different things. I don't for a minute believe you are equally involved, or even involved, fighting against those things. We all have to pick our battles and decided which ones are worth expending the effort towards. There are also different ways to fight those battles. Our little exchange already shed some light on this issue, and that's all I plan to do with it. It's called discussion, not throwing stones. If you don't care for any of it, simply ignore it. You won't hurt my feelings.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I know. I agree. Just expressing frustration I guess.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Gee Mark, head aches, frustration... maybe this appointment to top dog is not for you or is it just holiday stress. I got some holiday cheer if you want to stop in.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Gee Mark, head aches, frustration... maybe this appointment to top dog is not for you


Acebird, 
Perhaps what Mark needs is a little more of your support..... As the 3rd Vice President of the organization (the post is vacant) you could make a difference! You should ask about the nomination procedures.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BC,
Thanks, but we filled that position. (i c what you did there. i'll return the favor if possible.)


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

still haven't received a copy of the committee's information, got this from Paul Cappy

Hi Mike,
I am trying to finish the minutes from the November 14th meeting and get the Commissioner’s approval as well as the committee’s approval. When that happens we will send the final minutes to ESHPA through a member of our group that is also an official of the ESHPA. I will put you on the list to receive a copy of the report.
Thanks,
Paul

From: michael bassett [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 7:28 AM
To: Cappy, Paul (AGR)
Subject: AIAC meeting minuets

I was wondering if You had any luck getting the final copy of the aiac meeting minuets produced. I am still interested in seeing a copy and also several other Bee clubs are interested in seeing a copy and I will forward it to them. 


thanks mike


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What does (AGR) stand for?

Mike,
I have talked to Stephen Wilson, AIAC Chair, about having the names and contact info of all of the AIAC members available for ESHPA to Post on its website. I would like to see that an on going thing. I would also like to see ESHPA have a perminent display of the AIAC Meeting Minutes on the ESHPA website.

Thanks for your persistence. If enough of us push against something we can get it to move. You may have just been what it took to get the ball rolling. Good job.


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## Coffee_Bee (Feb 3, 2013)

November minutes?, what happened to the September meeting minutes? or the minutes from previous meetings???

Paul Cappy is the Secretary? So an employee of NYS Ag & Markets is going to advise NYS Ag & Markets? Our tax dollars at work? Why is this committee using our tax dollars?

Conflicts of interest? Are the minutes accurate or part fiction?

Inquiring minds need to know what is really going on....


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Coffee_Bee said:


> ?
> 
> Inquiring minds need to know what is really going on....


true that's why I posted previously that they are looking for people to be members of the committee. From the person I talked to at the ag and markets the same people are on the committee that were there when it was formed, even though the law says they can only bee members for 2 years, so if you want to know what is going on sign up to be a member. how you sign up to be a member isn't written down any where, but I asked paul cappy to put me on the list, since all the current members including Stephen Wilson, AIAC Chair have been on longer than 2 years the more people that ask to be on the more information that you will have for your inquiring mind. now since the representatives are to represent their zone, and I can't find out what the zones are that could present a problem. good luck if I ever get on I'll update this thread.

also ignore the fact that they say you have to be a eshpa member, the law that created the committee doesn't say anything about that being the case.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Inquiring minds need to do more than just want to know. People w/ inquiring minds need to get involved. They need to find out when and where the meetings are and attend them whether they are members or not. Meetings are open to the public, to observe.

You don't have to be an ESHPA member to be a member of the Commissioners Advisory Committee knowns as the Apiary Industry Advisory Committee (AIAC). Two members of the AIAC are not ESHPA members. One of them is a NY Apple Association member and another is a Representative of NYS Farm Bureau.

Coffee Bee, Paul Cappy is not an AIAC member as far as I know. He is the NYS Apiculturalist. Where else should he be if not at a meeting concerning Apiculture?


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

From Clyderoad: Re: new york apiary industry advisory committee
<sqcrk== your comments on this thread have made your position on a variety of issues abundantly clear to me. They are not positions I agree with or care to support in any way. Frankly, I am astonished at many of them. 
If I am 'some people', which it appears I am, bringing my views to the ESHPA is tantamount to rolling the boulder up the mountain. Please don't assume that ESHPA is the only venue available to effect change and influence policy and practices, and that I am not passionate about this issue. Your current views and the present agenda of ESHPA is crystal clear to me">

I agree; total turnoff reading Marks postulations. Mark, you are in a prominent position within ESHPA now, no more curmudgeon stuff. To change the subject, we have started a new Beekeeping Association here in Delaware County, in Delhi. There was a need here; travel was too far for most of us, on top of our responsibilities at home and work. We are all new beeks. We are all dedicated backyard Beekeepers. We all want to learn as much as we can. The Bee Wellness Workshop with Pat Bono from ESHPA was the best learning experience for me, and is needed for all new beeks...we had Joe Hewitt, a former NYS Apiary inspector talk with us....we bought him breakfast at the local diner and I made him an apple pie. That is the extent of our organization right now. My point is we need ESHPA for the small Beekeepers....that organization was invaluable, and I hope it doesn't change.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Please send me your Club's info so we can add it to the Local Bee Clubs List on ESHPA's website.

Joe Hewett is a good friend of mine. I'm glad you were able to get him out to a bee meeting. If you get the chance you should get him to tell you some stories. He's full of NY Bee History.

Invaluable is a good word to use in describing Pat Bono's Bee Wellness Program. I hope it will continue well into the future w/ ESHPA support and the support of others.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Please send me your Club's info so we can add it to the Local Bee Clubs List on ESHPA's website.
> 
> Joe Hewett is a good friend of mine. I'm glad you were able to get him out to a bee meeting. If you get the chance you should get him to tell you some stories. He's full of NY Bee History.
> 
> Invaluable is a good word to use in describing Pat Bono's Bee Wellness Program. I hope it will continue well into the future w/ ESHPA support and the support of others.


The informal bee meeting involved food, apple pie and the local diner...this time Joe is coming to our meeting the end of this month, another apple pie for him...I am grateful that he will do this for us, and take pie for payment . I will mention you to him. He lost 50% of his hives last winter, and was really down about it; he even thought he might stop, but he is still going strong. As for Delaware County Beekeepers Association, I think we might be on the website, either through Pat or the local CC extension here in Hamden could have done it for us. I am a member of ESHPA but do not attend due to other priorities in my life right now. Thanks for the reply.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh, I thought you meant a different association. Of course Delaware Beekeepers is on the website.

Did we meet at the Picnic?


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Oh, I thought you meant a different association. Of course Delaware Beekeepers is on the website.
> 
> Did we meet at the Picnic?


No, even though I was a member of Catskill Beekeepers Club I didn't attend the picnic, just the workshop.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Oh, I thought you meant a different association. Of course Delaware Beekeepers is on the website.
> 
> Did we meet at the Picnic?


I am going to ask if Jorik or Megan would give a talk at one of our meetings, not sure if they would do that for free being that we are small and have just started. Worth a try though!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Combine your efforts with groups in Oneonta and Sidney. Make it worth the guys time.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bee groups are just popping up all over the place these days.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Delaware County Beekeepers Assn. isn't on EPHPA's website that I can find.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Combine your efforts with groups in Oneonta and Sidney. Make it worth the guys time.


We do have people from Sidney and Oneonta...hopefully we'll have a full house and everyone will attend.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

For all you N.Y. beeks that were wanting to bee members of the AIAC, Richard A. Ball has been named as the new commissioner of the Dept. of Ag. and Markets, a new commissioner really should have some new blood to advise him on all the problems confronting the beeks in N.Y.
From a post on bee-l, from the way I read the material presented, all of the people on the current commission have exceeded the length of time that they may be members of that committee.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1401&L=BEE-L&F=&S=&P=25724

here is the write up on Richard Ball, it says he is a farmer, doesn't mention his political affiliation, so maybe some of the current bee problems can be addressed.

http://www.governor.ny.gov/press/010714-commissioner-agriculture-and-markets

If you choose not to get involved, please don't complain in the future about the direction the state goes.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

for the N.Y. beeks that wanted the minuets of the aiac meetings that I request from Paul Cappy last year, since I'm no longer a member of eshpa he seems to be ignoring me and my emails. so this is what the eshpa has seen fit to report. see pages 3 and 4 of the newsletter. Doesn't provide any relevant information as to what the discussion was on the provided subjects. So I still have no idea how this committee is representing the beeks of N.Y. and seems they didn't need to meet in the Nov. meeting as not much was discussed.

http://www.eshpa.org/archive/Summer 2014.pdf


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I think you assume too much about what motivates Paul Cappy to do something or not do something. I didn't know one way or another whether you are or were an eshpa member, so how would Paul Cappy know that?

I see you received your copy of the Newsletter. That's good. I hope you will renew your membership.


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