# Any Top-Bar hive users?



## tworedroseman

John, Noticed you are from Ala. I'm in P'cola and just finishing a top bar hive for swarm introduction this spring. Have you seen the hive in use by Peter Springhall, at www.kentbee.com/bromley ? I am in the process of completing a hive similar to his and plan to introduce the bees onto 4.9mm foundation. Will cut full sheets to fit the hive body. 

Made my hive with slight modifications: put in a screened botton with a slide in winter wind blocker; have had good reports on the use of screened bottom board for mite control. The topbar hive will be a new experience for me. Have had bees in the past in standard hives; in fact, I have just completed four hive bodies, screened bottom boards and one shallow super. Will most likely not need even a second hive body since I will have the hives in town. 

Read that there are bee keepers in N.Y. City and if they can produce honey thought that I might also

Trying to figure out a simple way to make 4.9mm foundation. Thinking along the lines of two fiberglass pads laid up from each side of a sheet of foundation. Would require some type of spacer and then simple clamping to impress the foundation form onto a sheet of wax. May begin on that project soon. R.M.M.


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## Barry

> Trying to figure out a simple way to make 4.9mm foundation. Thinking along the
> lines of two fiberglass pads laid up from each side of a sheet of foundation.

http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/foundation/index.htm 

-Barry


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## Michael Bush

I have tried them in the past. I usually make the top bars an even 1 1/2 because I can rip up scrap 2 bys for top bars. My first experiments were in about 1976. I used sloped sides because of references I found to baskets used by the Greeks. This worked well. You have to be more gentle with the combs. You can't go flipping them around like you do frames and you can't extract them.

The tricky part is getting the bees to build on the bars. I've done several things that worked. One is a starter strip. You just cut a groove and put a narrow strip of foundation in the groove. I use a "wax tube" from Walter T. Kelly to wax it in. Another method is to cut the bar so it angles to the middle. This is only about 3 degrees or so, but it makes a ridge in the middle. The tricky part of this is the woodworking is more complex. you have to cut the slope and you have to come back and cut a notch in the slope for the ends to be flat again. I rub the ridge with bees wax. This seems to work. I have heard of people dipping string in wax and laying it on the bars in a straight line down the middle. I have NOT tried this, but it might work. I don't run the wax to the edge because you want them to stop before they get there.

I have just built a trough hive of Langstroth width, so I can use frames and top bars. I'm not sure if they will connect the sides. It is a pain working with solid top bars (as in no gap between the tops) because if they cross comb anything you can't tell until you broken it all up. Mostly you have to be more gentle, but that's a step in a good direction anyway.


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## Michael Bush

I have kept bees in a sloped sided top bar hive. I tried several things for the bars (which I think it the hard step). I tried making them sloped to the middle (which isn't too bad if you have a plane, but is a little difficult) and rubbing the peak with beeswas, I tried grooving them and putting in a starter strip of foundation. Both of these worked well. If you don't do something to get the bees to build in the middle it won't work too well. I made my bars 1 1/2" wide beacuse it was easy to make them from scrap 2 bys. As long as you have something down the middle for the bees to start on this spacing works fine, although most people reccomend 1 3/8". I'm sure 1 3/8" works fine too.

I'm going to try them in a straight sided trough hive built to Lanstroth diminsions so I can mix the top bars with regular frames. I'm hoping I can do my brood and extracted honey in frames and my comb honey on top bars. I've read from people who are using them that the straight sided ones work as well as the sloped ones.

Here are some sties on top bar hives:
http://nanaimo.ark.com/~cberube/ktbh.htm http://outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/kenya.htm http://nanaimo.ark.com/~cberube/images/ktbhplan.gif http://www.gsu.edu/~biojdsx/main.htm http://www.kentbee.com/bromley/teaching.htm http://nanaimo.ark.com/~cberube/5.htm 

I like not having to buy foundation and it's intersting to watch what the bees build without much of my intervention.


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## dragonfly

I'm a novice beekeeper and just have two hives (until next year). One of them is a Lang, the other is a top bar hive that I converted from an old Lang body (I cut top bars to go across the narrower width so the entrance would be aligned parallel with the bars). The more interesting hive to observe is the top bar, imo, eventhough the frame hive is supposed to be more productive. I won't really know until next year because I won't start harvesting any honey until then. I used 1x2's to make the top bars, and secured a one inch strip of foundation along the top of each which seems to work very well. 

Michael- have you been able to find any good info on building a honey press? Did you build yours? The only info I have found is not descriptive enough for me to use in construction, and the photos were too poor to really see how it works. Thanks for any info.


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## Michael Bush

I already raise a lot of comb honey and I have frame hives, so I was just going to use the top bars for comb and the frames for extracted honey. But, if it was me, I'd just buy an uncapping tank (the small hobbiest ones) or make one out of wood. Put a layer of wire screen door screen on top of the queen excluder (that is usually used for these) and just mash the combs with your hands. Squeeze them into a ball in your fist. I did this for years before I bought an extractor. You put the squished combs (squeeze as much honey out as you can first) on the screen and let them drain. The comercial uncapping rigs like this have a honey gate on them for bottling, so you just run it out into the bottles. You may think it's messy, but you get honey all over your hands no matter what anyway.

I've never used a press, but they might be better, and they might not.

Instead of running the bars width ways, I would have run the bars the length of the lang and built a bottom board going the other way. That way you could use frames anytime you feel like it. All of my lang bottom boards already go long ways.


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## dragonfly

The main reason I built the bars to go across the shorter width was (actually a couple of reasons)... anyway, I wanted the entrance to be across the shorter distance for ease of handling the combs. I am under the impression that they build the brood area near the entrance with honey storage at the back, and this gives them more depth. I also didn't want to close the entrance I already have and cut out a new one or build a new bottom board. Primary reason- I got the bees late in the season and wanted to give them a minimal space to fill, hoping they will be able to winter over adequately until I can place them in a larger hive with standard size bars next spring. Made sense to me, but then I am new at this. LOL

[This message has been edited by dragonfly (edited August 09, 2002).]


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## Michael Bush

I do like the bars running paralell to the entrance, which is why I build and buy bottom boards that way. (yes you can buy them from www.beeworks.com with the ventilation kit for a langstroth). I'm sure it will work fine for you. I've just found that sticking with standardization keep so many more options open.


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## BWrangler

Hi Michael and Everyone,

Any new thoughts on topbar hive design since building one earlier this year?

Are the frames truely interchangeable or do the bees prefer to put different types of comb/cells in different locations? 

I think the only way for me to see what the bees do naturally is to build a top bar hive. Besides I have been interested in them since the mid 70's and love building neat bee stuff.

I am really interested in the overwintering aspects. Talking with others with some experience with top bar hives, they indicated the bees may have some problem relocating the winter cluster horizontally.


Best Wishes
Dennis


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## dragonfly

Dennis- Here in Texas, I will be surprised if over-wintering in TBH's will be a problem, but since I'm new to this, I could very well be wrong. In your area, it would be a much different story. You could probably come up with an insulating system that would really help them out. As far as the frames being interchangeable in the hive I recently built, it will be interchangeable, but requires a small modification in construction because of the 3/4 inch thickness of the front and back hive body boards, so there ends up being a small gap if you want to use a standard hive body as compared to one you measure and cut to your needs. To be frank, speaking from an amature viewpoint, I am much more impressed with the TBH in the speed with which the bees build their own comb from scratch as compared to drawing out foundation. Maybe I just have an exceptionally industrious group of workers on my hands, but they have far surpassed my expectations in the short time I have had them.


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## Michael Bush

>Any new thoughts on topbar hive design since building one earlier this year?
I'm going with a mixture of top bars and frames. They are pretty interchangable. Mostly I'm using frames. I'm trying to get the bees regressed and I want to be able to extract any 4.9mm or eve 5.1mm frames of honey and use them for brood.

>Are the frames truely interchangeable or do the bees prefer to put different types of comb/cells in different locations? 
They tend to put the brood toward the front and the honey fills out toward the back, but you can move things where you think you want them. You do have to watch them connecting the sides. They won't fill them in solid (if your starter doesn't run all the way to the edge) but they will connect them here and there and they combs are more fragile so you have to cut the brace comb on the sides loose before doing to much. You just have to pay more attention to what you're doing.


>I think the only way for me to see what the bees do naturally is to build a top bar hive. Besides I have been interested in them since the mid 70's and love building neat bee stuff.

You can also put starter strips in frames and see what they build. If you really want to just see what they do naturally, build a box the size of a langstroth deep with one wall made of plexiglass. I use 2x2's to build a frame to hold the plexiglass on. Now take a scrap of plywood and cut it to fit over the frame or in the hole where the plexiglass is so you can shut the "shutters" on the window. Put a bunch of 2x2's or 1x2's on the top like a top bar hive, but don't put in any starter strips. That way they can build anywhere they want. You can watch through the window. You can set the box up on it's side to cut out comb honey. If you cut carefully you can get where you can take a 1x2 off the top to get access there. It's a fun experiment. It's a mess, but not as bad as you might think.

>I am really interested in the overwintering aspects. Talking with others with some experience with top bar hives, they indicated the bees may have some problem relocating the winter cluster horizontally.
I haven't overwintered a horizontal hive yet. The top bar boxes I've built in the past I used as a super or I moved the bees to a regular hive. I'm not sure I'll have a hive built up enough to overwinter in a horizontal box this winter. I may have to move the bars/frames into a regular langstroth deep and stack them on top of a healthy hive with a double screen wire. Hopefully I'll have a good strong one next winter to see. I am worried a bit about how they will do. But wild bees seem to survive in worse situations all the time.


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## BWrangler

Hello Dragonfly and Michael

Thanks for the ideas and insight. I often run an observation hive and a hive with a plexiglass inner cover at my home. The modified super will be easy to build and a usefull addition. Must also build that TBH next year too. Now, I'm really going to have some fun. :> )

My small cell experience shows how important the comb is and cell size is only one aspect. You TBH guys are in a great position to contribute much to the understanding of its effects on bee behavior. Maybe I've been running on plastic foundation and lots of assumption much to the detriment of the bees.

As the bees put most of the brood toward the front of the hive, is most of the smaller cell comb found there with larger cell comb toward the rear? Or do the bees construct each comb similiar with a central area of smaller cells surrounded by drone and larger cells?

If combs toward the rear of the hive are primary larger cell,what happens when the hive expands in size? Is the comb toward the rear of the hive reworked to provide more worker size cells?

I have also read elsewhere that the bees seem to draw out the comb faster in TBHs than in regular hives. I wonder what is frustrating them in the standard hive?

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited August 24, 2002).]


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## Jane _nu_B

In process of building our first tbh, making it with straight sides,large enough to hold 30 tb's and using standard hive dimensions so that regular frames will work in tbh. Just purchased a book by Roger A. Morse titled ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture. It states that top bar bee hives are "a bad idea in hive construction that appears repeatedly in the beekeeping press". Any tbh users agree with this statement?


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## Michael Bush

There are advantages and disadvantages. One big plus is the cost. You can build top bars easily. Frames are much more difficult to make. If you use scrap lumber to build the hives and bars you could have a hive for just the labor. if you use a sheet of masonite soaked in water, dipped in wax to make blank wax starter strips you don't have to buy foundation. In a top bar hive you still have the advantages of comb manipulation as opposed to just having bees in a box and combs every which way. If you want cut comb honey or you want a lot of wax, then top bars work pretty well.

TBH Pros:
Cheap. If you put it in a trough hive at waist level (which most TBH's are but you could do with frames also) then you don't have to bend over or lift so high.

Easy to build.

More natural. The whole 4.9mm vs 5.4mm cell size is more of a Lanstroth frame hive issue. Most TBH users only do starter strips and the bees build what they want.

TBH Cons:
The frames are easier to break loose if they are burred or cross combed. If you are not careful with a TBH you'll beake the comb loose from the top.

The frames are easier to manipulate than TBH's. You can't flip a TBH comb sidways or it will break off from the top. You have to be more careful.

You can't extract easily. The combs are, as already mentioned, much more fragile because they are not reinforced with wire, they are not reinforced by a frame around them and therfore they break easily. You can't spin them in an extractor. It is a big advantage to have some drawn comb around when a brood nest gets honey bound or you're trying to start a new hive.

The old timers who write ABC XYZ of bee culture and the other old books, were trying to get people to stop using what they percieved as "old fashioned" practices. They believed that beekeeping should progress into the 20th century. Extraction, frames, standardization, modularization were the future. This is their perception.

My opinion is that frames are easier to work with. Frames are more advanced technology. You have to be more careful with a comb on a top bar, but I like the self sufficiency of being able to make my own. If you like simplicity and self sufficiency top bar hives make sense.

There is nothing wrong with a top bar hive. I assume you've seen Satterfields web site. http://www.gsu.edu/~biojdsx/main.htm 
There are a lot of good links here also.

I have done something similar to what you are doing. I built a long box of Lanstroth dimensions so I can put frames or top bars in it. Mine is as long as two Lanstroth boxes (21 frames or bars) and put it on a table that acts as a bottom board and I use deep boxes behind it as supers. The bottom board is 19 7/8" wide so the boxes go sideways from what a Lanstroth usually is.

I have also built one long hive the size of four Lanstroths, but haven't put any bees in it yet.


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## BWrangler

Hello Everyone,

Roger Morse besided being a professor was also a small commercial beekeeper dealing with extracted honey and his priorities such as maximum flexibility and resale value reflect that focus.

Hobbiest like myself have a whole different set of priorities. 

If you like to build stuff and want to learn about the bees then a long hive or tbh is a good choice. I will build a couple of them this winter myself.

Another thought, build it at least 26 frames long. That way the standard deep frame could be oriented either perpendicular or paralled to the narrow end of the hive. Is it important? I don't know.

Best Wishes
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

Acutally I forgot one other disadvantage. It's difficult to move a top bar hive. If you get enough people to lift it (it's usually long and heavy) then you have the problem of the fragile combs breaking as you drive down bumpy roads.


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## Hook

I want to build a tbh myself. I think it is just another aspect to explore. After removing the swarms from odd places, like walls, comb construction fascinates me. I think it really shows the housel positioning as well. Much can be learned. I do know one thing though, the drone cells were alot larger in the "wild" than what I am used too. Think it will be interesting to see.


------------------
Dale Richards
Dal-Col Apiaries
Drums, PA


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## dragonfly

Yeah, I was surprised at how large the drone cells are too. At one point, I was convinced that I had a laying worker because the drone comb section was larger than I am used to, but it all turned out okay. The queen was doing just fine. The top bar hives are infinitely more interesting to me, but they are a little more difficult to work because you have to be meticulous when removing the top bars and make sure they are not connected heavily to the sides of the hive. My favorite size of the ones I have built is the size of two deep supers with the bars parallel to the entrance. Next spring, I will add another same size hive on top of this one for harvesting. I have seen photos of top bars with a curved board basically turning it into a frame of sorts that would make manipulation simpler. It looks like an archer's bow, but I need to find thin strips of wood that I can soften and curve the size I need. Any ideas?


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## Michael Bush

>I have seen photos of top bars with a curved board basically turning it into a frame of sorts that would make manipulation simpler. It looks like an archer's bow, but I need to find thin strips of wood that I can soften and curve the size I need. Any ideas?

If it was me the two things I'd try are to just take a sapling or small tree branch and leave it round and bend it for the bow. Or take one a little bigger around and split it down the middle with a pocket knife. It takes a bit of practice to do, but if you work the knife with the handle at right angles you can go one way or the other and make the split follow the center of the branch. If you leave them round you can just drill a round hole at both ends of the bar to insert the bow in. I'd use something about 1/4" to 3/8" in diameter. If you do this, it's tempting to also make the hive with sloping sides or a half round bottom. Although it's not necessary. If the bees build some on the bottom of the bow it won't lessen it's reinforcement properties.

[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited October 14, 2002).]


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## BWrangler

Hello Everyone,

Hot water and sometimes steam is used to soften wood. That's how our ancestors built those beautiful curved chair backs, etc.

Techniques similiar to those used by basket makers and probably the same kinds of wood could easily be split and shaped that way.

Strips cut on a table saw could also be shaped this way.

Let us know what you come up with.

Best Wishes
Dennis


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## Jane _nu_B

We have our tbh almost completed, now trying to figure out what kind of foundation to use as a starter strip. Is there a need to use brood comb foundation in the nest area,and then cut comb foundation in the honey part of the hive, or do you use the same foundation throughout the entire hive.I'm sure if youv'e read this far you know I'm very new at this, but it's something that has me confused.


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## Barry

Jane -

I hope I can sway you into not using any foundation or using 4.9 starter strips. Some are having pretty good results with the use of 4.9 comb and not needing chemicals to treat for mites. I'm planning to put my 4.9 bees into a long hive (20 frames wide) using standard frames but using 1" starter strips of wax with no imprint on them and let them do their thing.

Regards,
Barry


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## Michael Bush

My point about the saplings is you can bend them. You don't have to soak them or steam them etc. Just peel the bark and bend them.

>We have our tbh almost completed, now trying to figure out what kind of foundation to use as a starter strip. Is there a need to use brood comb foundation in the nest area,and then cut comb foundation in the honey part of the hive, or do you use the same foundation throughout the entire hive.I'm sure if youv'e read this far you know I'm very new at this, but it's something that has me confused.

If you want to go the easy way I'd use a pair of sissors and cut 4.9mm foundation into starter strips. I don't know how you did your top bars. Most have a slit down the middle. I've done them that way and I've done them with a slope to the middle by cutting them in a shallow "V" shape. If you have the "V" shape you can just rub it with bees wax down the peak (which when put in will be down). If you have a groove you'll either have to fill it with wax (a wax tube fastener from Walter T. Kelly would would do well) or put in a strip. If you use a strip of 4.9mm foudation you won't have to make the foundation. Otherwise, You can take a piece of masonite that is smooth on both sides and dip it in wax server times to make two shees of plain wax (plain as in no embossing) then peel them off of the masonite and cut them into strips. Personally that's what I intend to do, because I want to see what the bees build as far as orientation of the cells (see Housel Positioning other places on this board).

If you don't give the bees some direction they will build every which way.


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## jlk

Hi everybody,nice to see so much interest in top-bar hives.I make my starter strips by cutting a groove in the bottom of the top- bar(table saw,an eigth inch deep and wide)Then I just drip a bead of hot wax into the groove.thats it the bees do the rest,have had alot of success with this.They build the size cells they need.Only have one tbh going into this winter,its one i have had going for about three years,seems very healthy again this year.Got lots of wax and a couple of gallons of honey from it this summer.The other one swarmed out and was slowly taken over by waxmoths,I broke it down and cleaned it up for next years splits.Lang type hives are more efficient,but the tbh are interesting and if you want wax they are great....JOHN


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## BWrangler

Hello Everyone,

Just getting down to the construction details for my tbh. What are your thoughts concerning the interior angles for the sloping sides of the tbh? What kind of angles do you have experience with?

Thanks
Dennis


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## BWrangler

Hello Everyone,

Just another thought on tbh construction. If the hive is constructed so that at about 10 inches below the top of the hive, it is at least 18 inches wide, a standard deep frame could be fastened to bottom of a top bar and inserted in the tbh.

Happy tbhiving
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

My previous top bar hives I put an angle on the walls of about 15 degrees or so off from vertical. Of course if you are measuring from horizontal that is 105 degrees or so. I don't remember now exactly, but that sounds about right from what they looked like. It seems like the exact number was 17 degrees. But I'm sure it was in that vicinity.

However, I'm currently running some in a standard Langstroth box with top bars in it. The sides are straight and so far they haven't connected it. Of course I put my grooves in the top bars to only as wide as standard foundation and waxed it in. The bees stopped before the sides so far. I'm not sure what they will do when the box gets more crowded but Satterfield (http://www.gsu.edu/~biojdsx/main.htm) says it's no worse with straight sides.

I have seen some attachment even when I did the 17 degrees, but not much and you could detach things as long as you were slow and gentle (as you should be anyway). The advatages of using a standard box are that I can mix frames and top bars interchangably, and I can put shallow supers on if I have some frames or notched top bars to let them into the super. Also I can reuse the boxes in either top bar or frame configuration. Also I can buy boxes if I want.


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## jlk

Hi beekeepers,My tbh are straight sided,I got alot of inspiration from Sattersfields sight.There is some attatchment at the top of the comb,sometimes,but it is easily loosened up with a hive tool,or I keep an old serated knife in my tool box,and run down the side with it ,looosening several tob -bars at once,while working the hive.I built mine to dimensions that would fit either top bars or lang-frames.The only thing is if you end up with alot of frames in it you have to create a wrap around top, to close the openings somewhat.I did this with a piece of plywood and 1by2 band around it.It fits snugly over the top-bars and the frames,almost like an inner cover...JOHN


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## Michael Bush

Yes, you can't depend on the bars to seal it up if you use frames. I use standard inner covers with extra vent holes in them and cover all the holes with hardware cloth. Then I put vent boxes on top of that (like a shallow super with a peice of plywood on top and holes around with hardware cloth). Mine are on a table horizontally and only one box deep (usually) so you could just as easily use standard migratory covers.


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## Barry

Hi all -

Been thinking about how do make my TBH this winter. Not having had one before, one tends to think over all the possibilities in hopes of improving on anothers and making the BEST TBH around. Haha, what a pipe dream, right? I enjoy all the ideas being thrown out here.

I think for myself, there needs to be a bottom that can open for periodic cleaning. I also want to design it in such a way where there won't be comb attaching to the sides. Two ways of accomplishing this it seems. Attention to the angle or slope of the hive sides, and/or using frames instead of just top bars.

One thought I had was to cut the two end boards in the shape of a half circle trying to mimic the shape of natural comb. Then take either 1x2, 1x3, 1x4's the length you want the hive, say 4 feet, and simply attach the ends of the boards to each end board creating the cavity. You could get fancy and even rip the correct angle on the edge of each 1x so they all fit tight together, but this seems overkill.

The other idea is to make a top bar that has a shoulder on each end where a thin slot is cut across the width of the bar (1-3/8"). Rip some pieces of wood that are about 1/16" thick and long enough to go from bar end to bar end with a nice hanging curve below the bar, creating a sort of frame. This would give the bees a boundry for the comb and add some strength to the bars/comb also. I hope to make one up this weekend and see how it works.

Regards,
Barry


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## dragonfly

http://www.ccdemo.info/GardenBees/KTBH.html 

THe above site is a pretty good one for general ideas about building top bar hives with angled sides. Mine all have straight sides, mostly because of the ease of building, but the guy who does the Cal-Kenyan hives has experimented quite a bit and has come up with what I consider some great ideas.


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## Michael Bush

I'll try to describe the table I have the boxes on. I have a long table (74" long). This is long enough for four standard Langstroth boxes. I have a double box on the front of this (32 1/2" x 19 7/8")and deep supers behind that box. The table is a frame three sides of 2 x 6 with a 2 x 4 for the cross peice in the front. I cut two dado's for the bottom. This allows me to slide a piece of plywood in for the actual botom and slide it out for cleaning (since the double box is too heavy to lift). Since I have two dados (one 3/4" down and the other 1 1/2" down) I can also slide in a screened bottom board for the top one and still have the option for a solid bottom board below it. I put an "entrace" block on the back of the last box on the table. If I was doing it again I'd make the table longer. It's nice to have space to move things around and still set it down on the table and not have to ever lift from the ground or to the ground or to or from anything higher than the table. The legs are 1 x 12 cut at an angle from 2" in at oppisite ends, so it makes two pieces 2" wide at one end and 9 1/4" wide at the other. These are screwed and glued in pairs at each corner with the wide end at the top. This makes a "V" looking down the leg from the top. It's very strong. Anyway, thought you might like the idea of the table with a bottom that slides out.


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## Barry

Okay guys, how about getting the camera out and taking a picture of your TBH. I'd love to start posting photos of all the different ways people are making TBH's. If you can, send me an email with either the photo attached as a jpg or ask me for an address to send by snail mail and I'll start putting them on a web page. More detail the better.

Regards,
Barry


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## Barry

Hi all -

This is to let you know that a TBH page has now been started. http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/index.htm 

Photos of your TBH with comments are welcome.

How is it going with yours, Dennis? I will be posting some more of mine soon. I have it on a stand now, painted, and I'm currently making the top for it. I have the 1x4 hinged bottom on it and just need to make 2 follower boards for it to be complete. Next will be making up a small wax dipping trap so I can get my un-embossed sheets of wax.

Regards,
Barry

[This message has been edited by Barry (edited November 24, 2002).]


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## Michael Bush

I finally got a digital camera, but it's dark when I leave for work and dark when I get home and it's been cloudy on the weekends. Hopefully I'll get some pictures.

Meanwhile, I do like the frames with the bow shaped bottom. It's the natural shape of a comb, it adds strength and is still easier to build from scratch than a regular frame is.

As to attachments to the side of the hive. I've noticed that you can paint whatever you don't want attached with FGMO and it will deter (but not prevent) attachments. It also weakens the attachments so you can break them loose easier and it cuts down on mites.


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## BWrangler

Hello Everyone,

I have ordered a digital camera and will post the details on my first tbh. I have settled on a traditional Kenya type hive with sides sloped 17 degrees off of vertical. That seems to be best approximation to a catenary curve with a 24" span and 18" depth. The top bars will be like those Leonard uses in his CalKenya hive.

I like the idea of having the hives at a working level but will place mine close to the ground due to cattle and high wind conditions.

Had alot of fun hanging a string and generating different catenary curves. If you try it, a wet string works better than a dry one.

I hope to build a true catenary hive like the neat one Barry is building after finishing this one.

Best Wishes
Dennis


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## dragonfly

Looks great. The curve along the bottom of the frames is basically what I had in mind, but I still haven't started trying to construct them. Been busy building a permanent hive stand that will hold 5 or 6 hives. I figure I still have a couple of months to finish the bar frames in the top bar hive not currently in use. I plan to buy myself a dig cam for xmas and will send photos then. Thanks for posting this.


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## Barry

Hi Guys -

Pictures, they're great. I started putting Michael's page together at the link above. It shows just how creative we beekeepers are when it comes to equipment.

Michael, are you using pine for the construction? What are you using for preservative?

There is plenty of room for the rest of you to get busy with those new digital cameras and hive construction. Look forward to seeing them.

-Barry


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## Michael Bush

Yes, I used pine and scrap plywood for inner covers and bottom boards.

I accidently bought some exterior latex paint that was just base without color in it. I liked seeing the wood so I kept buying that. Some of it is weathering because I didn't get around to painting it. 

I put scraps of plywood under the feet to keep them from rotting and to keep them from sinking in. You could use bricks or blocks and make the legs shorter.

My main goal in designing this was to minimize lifting. The top bars were to minimize both expense and maintanance. I don't have to clean frames and put foundation in them all the time. I am using a mixture of top bars and frames.


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## BWrangler

Hello Michael and Everyone,

Just looked at your beehive pictures. What neat ideas. I don't think I have ever seen a design which is so flexible and easily worked. Gives me much to think about.

The pictures add so much detail to your previous descriptions and are so sharp. What kind of camera did you use?

Thank You
Dennis


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## Bigearl

Where can I find the plans for a top bar hive? TIA
Earl

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited November 25, 2002).]


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## Eich

Micheal, When you remove frames for processing do you use a fowler bd with a bee escape to get the bees off the frames your taking or just remove the frames and shake them off? With out frames they could be fragile. Thanks for the great pictures. Darrell


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## Barry

Hi Earl -

There are several sites on the web that have TBH plans. Do a search and I'm sure you'll get several. I will make plans available on Beesource eventually but right now I'd like to gather as many different hive designs as possible and discuss them here before drawing anything up. Not yet having had experience with them, I'm not familiar with all the different pros and cons that need to be considered in designing one. I'll probably make several different styles available. First the experimenting stage has to happen.

Regards,
Barry


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## Michael Bush

>Just looked at your beehive pictures. What neat ideas. I don't think I have ever seen a design which is so flexible and easily worked. Gives me much to think about.

It took me almost 30 years to figure it out.







Of course one contributing factor was that my back can't take as much as it used to. I also use DE hives and bodies on these tables. They are about 18.25" x 18.25" and still fit on this table. Plus I have varying widths Lanstroth sized supers, 3 frame, 4 frame 5 frame and 10 frame. You could also use 8 frame to cut the weight of each box. You can use any depth, but I'd standardize on Deeps myself. The only criteria is you have to have a lid that is no wider than the box (like a migratory cover). My next set of tables will be eight feet long. The materials come out better (if they are new) and you have some spare area on the back of the table to juggle equipment without setting it on the ground. Also you can keep spare equipment on the back of the table. Of course, you can also do what I'm doing now, which is, have some extra tables around.

>The pictures add so much detail to your previous descriptions and are so sharp. What kind of camera did you use?

Acutally I scaled the resolution down a lot so they would fit on a web page and not be as large. I took them with a Cannon PowerShot S330 Digital ELPH. It's a nice small size and the only thing I don't like about it is it takes a proprietary battery.

>where can I find plans for a top bar hive. http://www.gsu.edu/~biojdsx/main.htm http://nanaimo.ark.com/~cberube/images/ktbhplan.gif 
Or mine which is just to build a long table bottom board and use standard equipment with top bars in place of frames or mixed with frames. The other ones I built are a long box (the size of four Lanstroth hives side by side) with rabbets for top bars (or frames) a groove at the right depth for the space at the bottom of the frames (10 3/8" down from the top) and a bottom board that slides in. You can add a 2" by 2" down the outside of the length to stiffen the 1" by 12" so it won't warp. http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/bush/index.htm 

Also, I didn't specify this in the description of the observation hive, but the plexiglass is difficult to cut without getting a relly fine plywood blade and using it with the teeth backwards. Also you have to drill holes in the plexiglass for the screws that are larger than the screw diameter or the screw will break the plexiglass. My hardward store will cut the plexiglass to fit also, so I don't always have to cut it.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited November 25, 2002).]


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## Michael Bush

>Micheal, When you remove frames for processing do you use a fowler bd with a bee escape to get the bees off the frames your taking or just remove the frames and shake them off? With out frames they could be fragile. Thanks for the great pictures. Darrell

Sometimes I don't have time to mess with a bee escape in which case I brush them off with a bee brush. No you can't shake them off the top bars or the comb will break. You also have to be careful to keep the plane of the comb perpindicular to the ground. You can spin it in either direction but you can't lay the comb flat. This means you can turn it front to back. You can turn it upside down but only if you make sure the comb stays in a line perpindicular to the ground. I'm not sure how to say this clearly, but it's ok to have the bar on the bottom and the bottom of the comb on the top. It is never ok to have turn it so that the plane of the comb ends up horizontal to the ground. This will break if it has much honey in it. I use a frame grip on my top bars when brushing them off, because the top bars are more difficult to hold on to and not break them than frames, but you could probably brush them off without it if you are careful. You'd have to hold the end of the bar and let it han at whatever natural angle it wants to and then brush it with the other hand.

Usually I use the triangular bee escape (don't know if it has someone's name on it). It's the only kind of escape I've had good luck with. On the table version you just put the bee escape board on the back of the table and set the super on it. Even if I'm using the long trough type hive, which has no seperate boxes, I build it to take standard Lanstroth frames, or top bars of the same size, so I can pull the frames or bars out and put them in a deep Lansgroth box over a triangular bee escape that is on a standard bottom board. In fact I'm likely to stack this on the front of the trough hive if I'm stealing it out of the back of the hive and then leave it a couple of days before I come back to it. Of course the standard for bee escapes is to make sure there is NO brood in the frames you're trying to clear or the bees will not leave. Sometimes I'll put a triangular escape on the top and the bottom. Just make sure it's bee tight when you do (except for the escape) and the escapes are on the right way (the top one is upside down compared to the bottom one. They seem to come out the top faster, I think because of the light coming in. If I do both it will usually be pretty clear in 24 hours. Of course it's never totally clear, so you have to brush a few bees off.

Also, I'll mention what to me is the obvious. When robbing a top bar hive, or even inspecting it you have to unlearn some habits. With a frame you can just pull it loose even if it's cross combed or has a lot of burr. The frame keeps the main comb together for you. You can't do this with top bar hives. You have to be gentle, see where it's attached and cut the attachments. It's not that they attach it more, they do it with the frames, but it doesn't matter as much. I have a old small meat cleaver that I sharpened on the end (tip?). It acts like a hive tool, because you can pry with it, but it also works for cutting comb loose. You will need to add a knife to your tool kit to do top bars.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited November 25, 2002).]


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## Russ

Hi All, In reading Micheal's post about the meat cleaver, I have an old Butcher Knife about 10 or12" long that I use for cutting comb. Another tool to keep track of. Dale


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## Michael Bush

Barry fixed the one picture that didn't have the link. If you click on it now you'll see the complete hive and a description of it.


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## Michael Bush

>In reading Micheal's post about the meat cleaver, I have an old Butcher Knife about 10 or12" long that I use for cutting comb. Another tool to keep track of. Dale

Not sure if you mean it as a bad thing that you have to keep track of it? Anyway, that's what I like about my meat cleaver. It's not another tool to keep track of, it replaces my hive tool.


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## dragonfly

The following site is where I got the ideas for the top bar hives I have built. I built the first one very similar to the one pictured, then the next one, I made longer (36 inches). What I have found is that the shorter one seems to be holding up better as far as holding it's shape and straightness. This design seems to be particularly suited for hives in hot climates because of the ventilation. http://www.xscd.com/tbh/


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## Michael Bush

When I've built really long box type hives (with the legs attached to the box) I have put 2 x 2 s across the middle or across the top and bottom on the outside, to stiffen it. I glue it and screw it with deck screws. This helps with the warping in the middle so your bars don't fit anymore because the width changed.


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## Bigearl

Thank you all for the information on top bar hives. I have checked each link and have decided that it is going to be my next project. 
Earl


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## beekeeper28

Hello, 
I am basically a new beekeeper. I have always been interested in beekeeping, reading articles and taking courses from our local beekeeping club (NEOBA. This spring was my first year to have hives I started with a nuc, and found a swarm. I have been dismayed through out the last two years at the cost of beekeeping. So this year I begin to look for alternatives to the Langs. No one in our area is familar w/ any other method. However when talking to my Grandmother, she would tell me about her Dad's hives and what they looked like as best as she could recall. 

So I started searching for something that matched her discriptions. I found James Satterfield's site. 

From spring to now I'm positive that I don't like working w/ Langs. To heavy, costly for a hobbist. Besides I like comb honey.

Today I found this group, which has answered a lot of my questions. One that I still have is what is what are you coating the sides with, I don't understand the abbrivations letters.

Anyways - Very Good Information Thanks. I think I ready to venture out and try this type of hive reguardless of the styrotopes of this being the backwards way of beekeeping. To me costly, heavy and unnatural concept is outdated. Happy Thanksgiving


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## dragonfly

Are you asking what to coat the outside of the hive with? I use oil base paint, 2 coats over a base coat of primer. On one of my hives, I used spar urethane and it turned out beautiful. I think Michael Bush (I think that's who it was) said in another thread that he uses exterior latex paint. I'm sure either would do fine. I just have better luck with oil base in outside projects. I'm glad you have enjoyed reading the posts on this thread. It has been very informative.


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## Michael Bush

I think you are refering to my reference to FGMO. That is Food Grade Mineral Oil. If you are a large beekeeper you can figure out how to get it in bulk, but if you're a small beekeeper, just buy the mineral oil at the drug store that is labeled for use as a laxitive. NOT baby oil. I think you could also use vegatable oil but the research on mites is using FGMO and that is what I use. I paint the inside of the sides sometimes and it just keeps the attachments from sticking as well and helps with the mites.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited November 28, 2002).]


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## BWrangler

Hello Everyone,

Have you seen the new pictures of Barry's tbh? Check out the removable bottom and the modified tbh frames.
http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/birkey/index.htm 

I can tell he had lots of fun building this one. Is this the best tbh yet?

Just one drawback though, it will still be at least 3 or more months before bees can occupy it :> )

Dennis
Seeing some neat stuff


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## BWrangler

Hello Everyone,

Just finished building the trough for my Kenya style top bar hive. Will build the frames sometime this week and post some pictures. I will use a T shaped frame with a vertical piece to help reinforce the comb.

Hope everyone is well on their way with a tbh. Spring is just around the corner for most and it's just about time to catch those swarms in the south.

Best Wishes
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

A lot of you are going to a lot of trouble to reinforce the comb. While this is probably ok, I'm not sure it's necessary. 

It just takes some adjustment in your technique to not overstress the comb by trying to turn it flat ways. As long as you rotate it while it's still hanging down, it's not that hard to handle. It just requires you to think a little differently. 

Also you have to think differently when pulling a comb loose. Where a frame can be just pulled out and the burr comb breaks but not the main comb, in a top bar hive you have to cut most of those burrs so they don't tear the main comb apart. Again, this is just an adjustment in technique.

I do hope all of you with your hoops and vertical braces let us know how well they work. I am curious whether they are worth the extra work. Part of the appeal of a TBH for me is less labor. Less boxes to lift, less frames to assemeble less frames to clean, less foundation to put in etc. My top bars are just a 1 by ripped to 3/8" thick with a shallow groove cut down the middle for waxing a starter strip. I like how simple they are to make.


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## txbeeguy

I have a few photos of my first TBH located on my yahoo profile: //profiles.yahoo.com/txbeeguy

I used scrap wood so the cost was "free". The cover will be one of those plastic ridged panels (like you see as skylights in some barns or metal shop buildings. 

The angled sides are 22 deg off the verticle and the top bars are 19" long (so they will fit in a lang box if needed). It will hold 30 top bars and the 'follower board' in a snug fit (but I still will use the plastic cover for additional protection against the rain and sun).


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## Barry

> I do hope all of you with your hoops and vertical braces let us know how well
> they work. I am curious whether they are worth the extra work.

I am curious too! The hoops and braces is just the bane of my perfectionism. Perhaps it is just overkill, only time will tell. Of course for me, all this "extra" work is not really work, it's fun and allows me creativity. Simple is good too.

Chomping at the bit for spring so I can stock it with bees.

Regards,
Barry


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## Michael Bush

>I have a few photos of my first TBH located on my yahoo profile: //profiles.yahoo.com/txbeeguy

I looked at it. It's interesting. You have a very narrow bottom. I don't think I've seen one that narrow.

>I used scrap wood so the cost was "free". The cover will be one of those plastic ridged panels (like you see as skylights in some barns or metal shop buildings. 

I wonder how the bees will respond to all the light? Maybe your bars are solid without notches? Then they wouldn't get much, but it will still incite them to do more of sealing the cracks between the bars when they see light.

>The angled sides are 22 deg off the verticle and the top bars are 19" long (so they will fit in a lang box if needed). It will hold 30 top bars and the 'follower board' in a snug fit (but I still will use the plastic cover for additional protection against the rain and sun).

All of the early top bar hives I built I went about 22 degrees also. I've given up an decided to just go with perpendicular sides. I haven't had them long enough to know what I think. Partly I wanted interchanability between Langs and the top bars. I agree with making it the same width for that reason.

Be sure you let us know what you love and hate about it after you get to use it.


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## Michael Bush

Here's how I started with top bar hives:

Back in the early 70's all the propaganda I'd ever read about hives said anything but a Lanstroth hive was stupid, dangerous, illegal, and backwards.

I'd read how the Greeks had built sloped walled basket hives with top bars on them. Since the hive was round, the bars weren't interchangable.

I was too poor to buy all the hives I wanted, and I was a carpenter with access to lots of small scraps of wood for free. So first I built a super that was the size of a Lang on the bottom (16 1/4") and sloped up. I used 1 x 12s for the sides. I used 2 x 2s for the bars. I put a bevel on them and waxed the bevel by just rubbing beeswax on it. Then I cut notched on the ends so the ends would be flat. I also cut grooves in some and put some foundation in it.

The bees happily worked this super. They drew the foundation a little quicker than the waxed bevel, but they drew them both. I had no extractor so getting comb honey was already the norm.

My next attempt was to make a bottom box that ended up at the standard Lang size on the top but was smaller on the bottom because of the slope. Then I drilled holes between the bars. I didn't go down the middle, as I see people doing now, I made two rows down a third of the way from the sides because I thought it would weaken it less (2 x 2 bars and I was worried about weakening them. lol) I drilled them with all the frames in the box. It looked a lot like txbeeguy's hive only shorter in length. Really narrow on the bottom. I used this for a brood box (it was really too small) and the super I already had on top of it. It worked ok. I just had to keep the brood nest from getting honey bound or they would swarm. I could use the sloped top bar super or a standard super on it. It was an interesting experiment. I pulled a couple of frames and let them move into the top box and retired the brood nest box, but still used the super on occasion.

I built another box the same as the first super and put it on top as a super. This made a kind of flare going up and then the next box was set in. I put 1 bys on the outsides to cover the exposed part of the top bars and put holes in the top bars so they could get into the super. This worked pretty wall also.

Eventually when I got more standard equipment, I moved them into that and just used the boxes for supers.

A year or two later I saw a Kenya hive in the ABJ and was surprised how much it resembled what I had built. At the time mine was vertical (like I was used to thinking) and theirs was horizontal. That was the first time I has seen an alternative to buying hives presented in a bee journal.

Recently I got interested again when I read Satterfield's pages and found out the sides could be straight instead of sloped. And now this site.

I also raised bees in a standard Lang sized box with 1 x 2 bars and no bevel, foundation or anthing else. If you wanted to rob it, you smoked it real heavy and gently set it on it's side and by cutting from the bottom or the top you'd get some honey comb out and free up some space. Sometimes you could get one of the bars off the top so you could see from both sides and cut comb out. It's not as bad as it sounds, but it was only an experiment. Eventually I cut all the brood comb out and put it in frames and robbed all the honey. But if it was the only way I had to raise bees, it would be worth doing.


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## txbeeguy

About the light: I decided to not put a notch in my top bars so the light won't be a problem. Also, between the plastic cover and the top bars, can be placed an old blanket if desired - Russian technique. The plastic cover is mainly for protection against rain and general "weathering" of the top bars from the sun and such. 
To add a super on top of the hive, I will remove a single top bar and cover that area of the top bars with a sheet of black plastic (fairly thick, not garbage bag variety) with a narrow elongated hole cut in it. As I understand, the bees will not try to build comb in that area due to the flexing plastic sheet but will have access to the lang super on top.
I've read about the "debate" as to whether sloped side are necessary. I thought I'd run my own little "experiment" and use this TBH and also use a standard Lang deep box with my top bars and see which colony tends to attach more brace comb to the sides. Maybe there will be a difference and maybe not.
As you saw, yes it's deep with a screened bottom - I figured it couldn't hurt with varroa mite control and it might just help (a little). Also the added 'air flow' from the screened bottom should help during the summers with our Texas heat. And as you saw, I also have a 'false bottom' board I can put in during winter to block out some of that air flow during the winter. I'll post again later with pros and cons...


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## BWrangler

Hello Everyone,

After looking at all the various designs for tbhs, I thought I would build the plainest one possible. The sides consist of three 1"x6"s about 3feet long. The bottom consists of two 1"x6"s and the top bars are 24" long.
I am considering using them in a non-migratory sideline operation.

Guess what? The slope off vertical is 22 degrees. No kidding. Have we discovered the Golden Ratio for Tbh's? :> )

It is most interesting to see the different desings and implementations of this idea.

Are we having fun yet?
Dennis


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## txbeeguy

About the slope off verticle [BWrangler]: 
ha! ha! maybe... 
However, there certainly wasn't anything "scientific" about my decision. I had actually started off with 30 deg and due to the {scrap} plywood I was using for the sides of my TBH, that much of an angle made the plywood too wide and didn't allow for an opening at the bottom. So I backed it off until the results you see and then I measured the angle and it turned out to be 22 deg off verticle. (So you can see, it certainly wasn't "planned"...just turned out that way). The hinged back door of the hive will make it easy to vacuum debris off the inside of the bottom screen (if necessary) and will allow me to place the temporary "bottom board" in during the winter months.


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## Michael Bush

It's been so long since I arrived at the number, it's hard to remember exactly, but I either measured it from a photograph of the Greek basket hives (which they still use) or the article I read describe the angle of the baskets.


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## Barry

Dennis Murrell now has his TBH design online.
http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/murrell/index.htm 

Thanks Dennis. He kept it simple and the cost low to where anyone should be able to make it. Can you explain more about the bar supports you designed?

Regards,
Barry


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## BWrangler

Hello Barry and Everyone,

The "T" shaped frames are not a original idea of mine. I first started thinking about tbhs in the late '70s and sometime since I've read about them. I can't remember where though.

The vertical piece is designed to provide some support for any inadvertant rotation of the comb when the topbars are worked. It reaches almost to the bottom of the hive.

I will run a bead of beeswax down the center of the topbar and down each side of the vertical support. Hopefully the bees will attach the comb to both points and the comb will be stronger and resist breaking off the topbar. I might have to move this hive twice a year and would hate to hit the breaks and dislodge the comb.

In addition I will cut a couple of small communication holes in the drawn comb on each side of the vertical support.

I toyed with the idea of using 2 shorter pieces toward the outside edges of the frame rather than the single center one. I have prepared several topbars this way also.

Best Wishes
Dennis


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## txbeeguy

TBH completed and ready for the bees. Last of my photos are at: http://profiles.yahoo.com/txbeeguy 

Starter strips are in place and just waiting for my first Spring split!
Total cost of the hive was under $20 (and most of that was for the cover and bunge straps)


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## BWrangler

Hi TxBeeGuy,

I looked at the tbh pictures in your briefcase. Neat!

Dennis


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## beekeeper28

Hello TBH users I like both of these designs recently posted. One question what is the purpose of the solid frame (follower board)?

I have thought of some thing I'm thinking about trying. Tell me what you guys think of useing old ice chest/coolers to some as a TBH. I was thinking about cutting the bottoms out with my skill saw and installing a screen for a bottom board. I was thinking about attaching a thin ledge on both sides to support the frames, plus it would already have a hinged lid.


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## Michael Bush

>Hello TBH users I like both of these designs recently posted. One question what is the purpose of the solid frame (follower board)?

With a conventional Lanstroth hive the size of the hive is adjusted by adding or subtracting supers. This way you can start with a small enough area the bees can keep the atmosphere correct for raising brood when there aren't that many bees yet, and then you can increase the size so there is enough room when the population increases and you need lots of honey storage area.

With a top bar hive you do this with a follower board. You can make the cavity larger or smaller by moving the board.

If you keep a small top bar hive you could get by without the follower board, but you have to rob out honey more often so it doesn't get too crowded and still the population may reach a point where they don't all fit inside to cluster at night.

If you run a large top bar hive, you will have better luck using the follower.

>I have thought of some thing I'm thinking about trying. Tell me what you guys think of useing old ice chest/coolers to some as a TBH. I was thinking about cutting the bottoms out with my skill saw and installing a screen for a bottom board. I was thinking about attaching a thin ledge on both sides to support the frames, plus it would already have a hinged lid. 

I you have an old cooler around and don't care about ruining it, it should work, but what will the bars hang on? You'd have to put in rails or somthing for the rests and then you've increased the space to the wall under the rest and then the bees will be more likely to attach the combs to the frame rest or run the combs under the rest. If you put a one by all the way down the side for the bar rest it would solve this, but now you've built a wall anyway, so why ruin a good cooler?

I would suppose with a syromfoam one that has some thickness to the foam you might be able to cut a frame rest in the foam, but the styrofoam coolers are pretty fragile.

Advantages: Should be well insulated in the winter.

Disadvantages: You ruin a good cooler.

Unless you just want to get rid of an old cooler, I'd just make it out of scrap wood.


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## BWrangler

Hello Everyone,

>Tell me what you guys think of useing old ice chest/coolers to some as a TBH.

I had the same thoughts and checked out the stock at Walmart. Most of the coolers under $20 were too small. A cooler of the right size was about $50 which is more than it cost to build one from wood.

I had planned to cut a rabbit along the sides of the cooler and insert a wooden frame rest there. It should work quite well.

But it's so easy to build one. I think a very simple and cheap design, even cheaper than mine, could be built along Barry's design if the plywood ends could be scrounged. Pallet lumber could be used for the sides and a simple top bar could suffice. I bet it could be done for less than $10.

I still looking for a very neat scroungable alternative. Anyone have any ideas? I would like to get a sideline size operation up and running using tbh type hives.

Best Wishes
Dennis


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## txbeeguy

I had actually thought about using an old cooler too (the styrofoam type) but was faced with how to make it more durable - fiberglasing it came to mind but with all that trouble, quickly came the decision that wood would be easier to work with. I did see on the 'net that some guy in eastern europe (Romania, if memory serves me correctly), made a couple of TBH's out of old, discarded refrigerators (the small european type - more like our small wet bar or office type of refrigerators).


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## Michael Bush

One of the nice things about a top bar hive, is you can work with what you have. If you have to buy all new materials or buy something that really isn't made for it, I'm not sure how practical it is.

I'm not sure what's in a typical dumpster at a home job site now, but I would guess you could easily find enough materials for several hives in a typical one. You'd just have to plan for the materials you have.


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## txbeeguy

Michael, now I'm really laughing! That's exactly where I DID find my "construction materials"! I used to live 'out in the country' but now they're building houses all around me. So natually, that became a great source of TBH material. I found enough 1x4's to make about 100 top bars (which is what you see in one of my photos). The best part is: they were just going to trash this leftover material; same goes for plywood too. In fact, it's why I said my hive was built for less than twenty bucks. I used a quart of paint which I paid $1 for at Home Depot (on their return shelf) and it was good quality 'exterior' paint! The fact it matches the colour of the top cover was purely accidental! So pretty good sized hives (thirty "frames" or equal to three deeps) can be built for little or nothing.


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## Michael Bush

I know it was considered "wrong" when I did it and it was probably illegal when I did it, but I raised bees in just a box with miscellaeous one bys for a lid just to see what the bees would do. I got them out of a house so I didn't think I was risking much at the time (at least not money) The bees were free. The box didn't cost anything because it was scrap and I was a carpenter so I never bought nails. I was surprised to discover how orderly the hive was.

Then I went on to try the top bar thing based on a reference to the greek baskets. I'd never heard of anyone doing such a thing at the time. I did it because I enjoyed bees and frankly I was dirt poor.









The top bar hives I built didn't cost anything either.

Some of my favorite covers for Langstroth hives were the cut outs from formica counter tops for the kitchen sink. It has some weight to it so it stayed on resonably well and the formica would last forever.

I built my first trough hive (not a top bar hive) as an attempt to help an old lady who loved bees but couldn't lift any boxes. It was built out of scrap also. I only bought the frames. It took 30 deep frames. I'd never seen a trough hive, nor did I have a name for it, then.

This was all in the early '70s.


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## txbeeguy

>Some of my favorite covers for Langstroth hives were the cut outs from formica counter tops for the kitchen sink.

It's exactly what I made my 'follower board' out of on my TBH.

My grandparents kept bees when I was growing up in Kentucky and they kept bees in wooden boxes too (called bee gums). But then, as you say, moveable frames became the mandate and the bee gums slowly were replaced with Langstroth hives.


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## harlond

Thanks to everyone for this informative and useful thread. I'm getting ready to build a tbh modeled on this one built by Steve:
http://www.xscd.com/tbh/ 

I was inclined against putting in the extra top entrance. With the attic, it's not needed for ventilation, and I'm not planning on installing supers. Anyone have any thoughts about the advantages and disadvantages of the extra entrance?

Also, is there any reason, with a tbh, that I can't screw the bottom board to the hive body to help prevent racking and warping?

Finally, do I understand correctly that some of you are painting the exterior of the hive and "finishing" the interior with FGMO? Do you finish the entire interior surface, except for the top bars, with FGMO? Does it have any effect on the willingness of mail order bees to accept the hive?

Thanks for any assistance.


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## Michael Bush

>Thanks to everyone for this informative and useful thread. I'm getting ready to build a tbh modeled on this one built by Steve: http://www.xscd.com/tbh/ 

This looks like a well thought out design.

>I was inclined against putting in the extra top entrance. With the attic, it's not needed for ventilation, and I'm not planning on installing supers. Anyone have any thoughts about the advantages and disadvantages of the extra entrance?

I think the ventilation will greatly increase production. I like the top entrance too. Also you can smoke the bees through the top, like a traditional inner cover, before opening it up.

If you want to simplify things, you can skip all of that. Simple top bars with a piece of wood for a lid work.

>Also, is there any reason, with a tbh, that I can't screw the bottom board to the hive body to help prevent racking and warping?

None at all. The only reasons for not screwing it together are so you can clean the debris off the bottom easily.

>Finally, do I understand correctly that some of you are painting the exterior of the hive and "finishing" the interior with FGMO? 

I often paint the walls and the top of the bars with FGMO. Of course if you don't have the top entrance and the notches then the bees can't get to the top of the bars anyway.

>Do you finish the entire interior surface, except for the top bars, with FGMO?

Not really a finish, it's for the mites and to keep things from getting as connected to the walls.

>Does it have any effect on the willingness of mail order bees to accept the hive?

The FGMO has no smell. The package shouldn't care. You could try Axtmans recipe for propolis shellac and then put the FGMO on top of that.

Personally I like most everything about the hive you refer to. I like the ventilation. I like the top entrance. I like the screened bottom board.

What I'm not so sure about: 

I don't care for the little holes myself. Maybe it breaks up the draft and maybe it's a good thing, but I'm used to being able to really open up and entrace during a heavy flow and shut it down in spring and fall, so I prefer something with an slot for an entrace reducer.

I'm not so sure I like the notch in the very middle of the frame because it weakens it. But the bars look sturdy enough.


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## BWrangler

Hello Harlond,

I have nailed and glued my bottom board on. I will set my tbh on a pallet so any rot will be there.

The interior of my hive is unfinished.

I myself haven't settled on the upper ventilation question. A 3/4 hole could be drilled and then plugged later with a piece of wooden dowel if not needed. In my standard equipment, I seasonally plug the vent holes with small pieces of pantyhose.

Let us know how your ventilation works out.

It's my first year with a tbh also.

Best Wishes
Dennis


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## dragonfly

I built one of my tbh's based on Steve's design and am very happy with the way it turned out. I did not put an upper entrance in, but did build the attic for ventilation. Also, I built a hive stand which will also serve as the bottom board, with mesh for a ventilated bottom. I haven't had any problem with twisting or warping so far.


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## BWrangler

Hello Everyone,

I have been thinking about the commercial potential for tbhs. It would be very easy to build up a sideline size operation using tbh technology. Several advantages exist for a small operation interested in making money with bees.

Capital cost could be much lower per pound produced. Hive construction costs would be lower. Very little storage space would be needed as most of the equipment is on the hives year around. Expensive extracting equipment could be replaced with a few inexpensive settling tanks.

Labor costs might be much lower as well. Combs could be individually havested in the yard and macerated into a storage tank on a truck. The storage tank could be wheeled off the truck to seperate the honey by settling. No double to triple handling frames or equipment. Settling time could replace additional labor.

If the reinforced topbars could handle the rigors of transportation, the hives could easily be palletized using free pallets. The horizontal hives could be easily stacked and would be much more stable than the conventional hives. Banding probably would not be needed.

A very small area could be used to seperate and bottle the honey. This "food grade"
area could be rented. The finished product could be stored in your own "warehouse".

Just some thoughts
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

And if you can do it as a clean system (no chemicals, no FGMO to soften the wax and no essential oils) you can produce a lot of clean wax to sell at a premium price.


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## harlond

As I previously reported, I'm building a tbh modeled on Steve's tbh. This weekend I built the hive body and bottom board, attic and attic floor, and added a skirt to the body. I have two questions. First, the link below shows how Steve feeds the bees in his tbh:
http://www.xscd.com/tbh/images/07divider_w_feeders.jpg 

Could someone tell me what size and how many holes should be drilled in the jar lids for this type feeder?

Second question: I'm planning to rout out an entrance near the bottom of the hive body. Earlier there was a discussion of the merits of a top entrance. That discussion left me wondering if there is any compelling reason to put the entrance at the bottom or to have one there at all. Ventilation is not an issue for me because I'll have a screened bottom board and the ventilation attic. Would it be OK to have only an entrance in the attic, or do I really need the bottom entrance? Thanks as always for your kindness in sharing your experience.


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## Michael Bush

It's actually one of those prefernce things about how many holes. I've seen them with just a few and with a lot. Actually for spring stimulation a few is better because it stimulates without them clogging the brood nest. I would call a lot (used for fall feeding if you think they are short on stores) as covered with holes about 1/8" apart. A few would be 12 or so.

I always use those little nails that are for the frames to poke the holes. I hold them with a pair of pliers and tap them with a hammer. I have a piece of wood under it and I try to just go part way in, but if I go all the way through the nail is still small enough to not leak. The holes are probably about a sixteenth of an inch.

Also, I would staple a piece of 1/8" hardware cloth on the underside of the inner cover where the lid will rest on it so you can fill them without the bees flying out.



[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited March 03, 2003).]


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## BWrangler

Hello Everyone,

Studies conducted by Roger Morse at Cornell U. indicate the swarming bees prefer a bottom entrance of about 1 1/4" in diameter.

Bees are very adaptable and I have worked hives with entrances just about everywhere. Older, more defensive bees tend to congregate near the entrance and if that entrance is left relatively undisturbed when a hive is worked the bees will be much calmer. Returning forages also have someplace to go while the hive is worked.

I have worked standard hives with entrances in the lids. The bees were much more disturbed by the inspection and when the top super was set off to the side angry bees would leave both sides of the super and look for the hive entrance. Guess what was there instead? Me :> ) 

Just some thoughts
Dennis


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## harlond

Dennis, when you say that "the swarming bees prefer a bottom entrance of about 1 1/4" in diameter," do you mean a circular entrance? If so, what sort of landing pad, if any, would such an entrance demand? Thanks.


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## Michael Bush

>Dennis, when you say that "the swarming bees prefer a bottom entrance of about 1 1/4" in diameter," do you mean a circular entrance? If so, what sort of landing pad, if any, would such an entrance demand?

I've done them with and without a landing pad. The landing pad was a 2 x 2 screwed on just under the round hole. Without isn't as good, but works better than you think. They can hit the hole pretty well.


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## BWrangler

Hello Harlond and Everyone,

The study used different diameter circular holes.

I have always used a 3/8" entrance and 3/4" vent holes on my standard hives and have never had any mice problems. An 1 1/4" makes me wonder about potential mice problems.

I am going to use the 1 1/4" holes, one on each end so that I can use either end for the main entrance and plug the other. I may also use 3/4" holes near the top of the tbh for ventilation if needed. They can be plugged if not needed.

I am not using a landing pad. I had originally designed them in but opted for several additional frames in the hive instead. 

My tbh is a work in progress.

Best Wishes
Dennis


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## dcross

An interesting site, http://rupertshoney.co.za 

[This message has been edited by dcross (edited March 10, 2003).]


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## Michael Bush

>An interesting site, http://rupertshoney.co.za 

Try http://www.rupertshoney.co.za/


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## beekeeper28

I seen that website last Friday. I linked to it from a site that had some great photos. I have lost the website address and I would like to see that site again. Question - How did you come across the "Rupert" site? I'm just wondering if you linked from the same site that I did and if your had the addres that had the neat photos. Here is a link to anothe rintereasting site that I went from the first site as well.
http://www.pollinator.com/feral/feral_examination1.htm


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## Michael Bush

>Question - How did you come across the "Rupert" site? 

I don't remember for sure, but I was looking for sites on feral bees and bait hives and it came up in the search, not as a link from somewhere else.


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## airbalancer

Hello all, 
I've been following this post for awhile and you have inspired me to build a TBH. My question is how do you effectively medicate a TBH. All the meds say do not use while the hives are supered, but if I'm not going to use supers how can I be sure the honey I harvest from the back of the hive is not tainted. Is my only choice to use a follower board? I am thinking of trying the FGMO approach but I believe I would still need to use the Fumadil and terramycin. Also, has anyone come up with good place to apply the emulsion cords in a TBH? I should have some pictures to share in a week or so.
Thanks
Mike


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## BWrangler

Hello Mike and Everyone,

I sure cant't help you the mite treatment aspects as I haven't treated for mites or anything else since 1999, but would suggest that whatever treatment you use doesn't contaiminate the wax. Acids, powdered sugar, and fgmo could be used in the conventional ways.

The drugs could also be feed in syrup or dusted when the frames behind the broodnest are barren or harvested.

I don't think any more confidence can be obtained when using standard equipment as the bees move the stuff all over the place.

My experiences with small cell using conventional equipment indicates most if not all bee treatments are not needed and in fact can be very detrimental to colony health.

Besides being really fun, my TBH will be used as a research tool to investigate much of what I have seen with small cell and also what has been reported about feral hives by others.

I'm also looking at them as a commercially viable option for a small sideline operation.

Will enjoy the pictures.

Best Wishes and Happy TBHing
Dennis


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## airbalancer

Hello all, 
I have some pictures available on my website, www.appleblossomlane.com or you can use the direct link below. Any comments or suggestions would be welcome. I am planning on notching the top bars and making an inner cover of sorts so I have a location for the FGMO cords. Also I'm thinking of making the actual roof out of that corrugated plastic, but I havent worked that out yet









http://home.attbi.com/~thomas24/TBH.htm


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## BWrangler

Hello Airbalancer,

What a beautiful tbh. I especially like the possibilities that result from incorporating the slope of the roof into the end pieces of the hive rather than building an entire seperate roof. Misc items could be stored under the roof. Feeding could be done under the lid. Extra ventilation could be easily provided if needed. The area could be insulated for winter protection. That's neat.

I'm going to incorporate that idea on my next tbh.

Let us know what kind of cover you come up with.

Thanks again for the pictures and the great ideas.

Happy TBHing
Dennis


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## dragonfly

airbalancer, I agree with Dennis. That is a beautiful hive. It reminds me of the Cal-Kenyan hive except for the sloping roof line. Great idea. My top bar hives have straight sides, which are fine, functionally, but the sloped sides and angled roof add an aesthetic element. I guess the bees don't care either way, but it looks like you took great care with details and function.


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## Michael Bush

I'm a carpenter (or at least I was one for more than a decade) and I wouldn't have spent that much work. It's a work of art. I hadn't thought of how a screened bottom board would look on a sloped sided one, but if the sides are steep enough, and I think they are, then the mites would slide right down and the screened open space is smaller for the slope. It looks very nice.


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## airbalancer

I got alot of ideas from the Cal-Kenyan and all the other TBH's I've seen. My idea for the roof is to overlap the pitch of the two end pieces and use a simple peg to lock the roof on securely, that way I wont have to use weights on top.
Mike


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## BWrangler

Hello Airbalancer and Everyone,

I like the roof and now it's attachments. A beautiful hive keeps getting better.

The tbh is a great forum for trying and sharing new beekeeping ideas.

It sure bets nailing tens of thousands of frames and building the umteenth super.

Thanks
Dennis


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## beekeeper28

Wow what a work of art! I would bet that if you stained that and varnished it, it would be beautiful. You might even be able to market that to non carpenter types. The more that I study this out; the more I'm thinking that I will not be buying any more standard equipment - at least not as long as I'm in the hobby stage.


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## Michael Bush

>The more that I study this out; the more I'm thinking that I will not be buying any more standard equipment - at least not as long as I'm in the hobby stage.

What I do is build my top bar equipment the same dimensions as Langstroth stuff. I build the boxes some multiple of standard Langstroth boxes wide and then you can use standard supers, excluders, inner covers, lids etc. or you can put frames in the brood chamber and use top bars for the honey. Interchangeability means you haven't wasted anything and all it costs you is get interchangeability is the trouble to make the measurements come out right.

I think it's the best way to get started rasing bees cheaply.


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## Michael Bush

I like the looks of Txbeeguy's hive. Especially the arms on the end. I have contemplated putting something like that on mine to hang bars on. This is especially nice on a top bar hive as you can't set the frames on the ground. I have always built mine to Langstroth dimensions which lets me use one of those frame rests that hang on the end but the arms sticking out would be even more convenient.

For those of you who haven't done top bars, you may want to think about where you will put the bars when working the hive. One option on a sloped hive is add some 1 x 2 arms a little below the top so the space between them is correct. for the length of the bar. If it's a square sided box, you could put a couple of long deck screws in the end spaced correctly for the bar. Another is use your follower board to leave some space on the end inside to put them.


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## txbeeguy

Those "arms" on the end came from my laziness to cut them off! Since I was using scrap wood, I decided to just leave them - later I discovered they would make an excellent place to put the top bars when I'm working the hive. My top bars are also 19 inches long so they will fit a standard brood box (if need be). I have been feeding my bees heavy so as to encourage a quick buildup this Spring - should be ready to do a split and 'populate' the TBH very soon! 
As soon as they get it going, I'll post a few more photos.


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## BWrangler

Hello Txbeeguy and Everyone,

I also thought those side extensions were designed as frame rests. I'm going to incorporate that idea into my 'fancy' tbh. If a cross piece was placed to connect the two sides of the rests they could be used as handles to move the hive. Think I've read about the handles on James S.'s site. 

Looking forward to the shots of bees in the tbh and the mangement techniques.

Now this is beekeeping at it's best. Thanks guys for the ideas.

Happy TBHing
Dennis


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## txbeeguy

Actually there is a cross piece on each end (made from the same wood) and it is how I move the hive. It's these two cross pieces that have the 22 deg angle cut which forms the overall shape of the hive. The hive doesn't have to be supported by underneath (by sawhorses like in my photos), it could also be suspended by rope under a tree (as an example). One of these days, I'll try to draw up some basic construction drawings with dimensions. I think it has absolutely the fewest saw cuts necessary and would lend itself to replication very readily.


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## airbalancer

Hello all

I have ordered a 3LB package of bees for my TBH, and I am just wondering, is there anything special I should do to introduce them to the new hive? Would you use a wire or something to hang the queen cage up by the top bars? 

Mike


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## Michael Bush

Whatever works for you. I usually staple a piece of card stock (like 3 x 5 cards are made of) to the queen cage. Or better yet a piece of hardware cloth if I have a scrap of it around. Run this up through the crack of the top bar and bend it and staple it to the top bar. Make sure you don't get too deep of a staple that would block the exit on the cage or staple the queen. Of course with the hardware cloth you won't even need to staple it. A tight 90 degree bend will keep it there.

I'm sure there are a 100 other ways too that are just as good, but this is what I've done in the past.


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## Hal

Hi guys,
I'm new at doing the top bar hives. I am running 8 of them this year and built them using the instructions from James Satterfield's website. I am running into a problem with the top bars swelling so that I can't get them in and out very easily. Is this because the bees inside are trying to evaporate the moisture from the nectar? Do I need to have some ventilation holes near the back of the hive; and if I do ventilate, how do I keep the bees from using this hole? (My entrance holes are in the front of the hive)
I'm glad I stumbled on to this site...Have any of you been successful commercially with the top bar hives? I am a school teacher that would like to get into this a little more and wondering if it is feasable to do the beekeeping in the tbh's a little more than a hobby.


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## Hal

Hi guys,
I'm new at doing the top bar hives. I am running 8 of them this year and built them using the instructions from James Satterfield's website. I am running into a problem with the top bars swelling so that I can't get them in and out very easily. Is this because the bees inside are trying to evaporate the moisture from the nectar? Do I need to have some ventilation holes near the back of the hive; and if I do ventilate, how do I keep the bees from using this hole? (My entrance holes are in the front of the hive)
I'm glad I stumbled on to this site...Have any of you been successful commercially with the top bar hives? I am a school teacher that would like to get into this a little more and wondering if it is feasable to do the beekeeping in the tbh's a little more than a hobby.


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## Michael Bush

>I am running into a problem with the top bars swelling so that I can't get them in and out very easily. Is this because the bees inside are trying to evaporate the moisture from the nectar? Do I need to have some ventilation holes near the back of the hive; and if I do ventilate, how do I keep the bees from using this hole? (My entrance holes are in the front of the hive)

The environment in a hive has to be moist for the brood to live. Are the bars too long or too wide after they swell? If they are too long, you should just cut them shorter. If they are too wide, you need a follower on the end so you can remove it and them pry them apart.

You do need some ventilation somwhere. A screened area under the brood nest with #8 hardware cloth could allow mite fall while providing ventilation. You could cut a hole in the back and cover it with #8 hardware cloth. It will work for a while until the bees propolize it closed. If you do some kind of hole in the back with the hardware cloth but block the light coming in then they won't propolize it nearly as much.

>I'm glad I stumbled on to this site...Have any of you been successful commercially with the top bar hives?

I have never tried to do it commercially. I think it would be advantageous to run a "clean" (as in no chemicals) hive and then you could get a premioum for the wax. You'll have lots of it if you press comb for extracted honey. Of course you can sell comb honey, that seems to be a big market anyway.

It has the advantage of low investment which means less overhead. Also it has the advantage of less labor because you're not lifting all those supers off everytime you want to check the brood chamber.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited April 30, 2003).]


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## Hal

Thanks Mike,
I'll try the ventilation holes with the screen. My bars are swelling against each other which makes sense from your reply. This discussion board has given me a lot of ideas. I'm sure I'll need your help in the future. 
Thanks again...Hal


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## BWrangler

Hello Hal and Everyone,

>I'm glad I stumbled on to this site...Have any of you been successful commercially with the top bar hives?

I think the tbh has some great commercial potential for a non-migratory sideliner. Some of my thoughts were noted in a previous post and I had planned to expand this year and test some of those ideas.

Unfortunately that will not be possible this year. Maybe next.

The short term commercial possibilities are especially exciting. If raw material for the hives can be scrounged, the possibility exists for turning a profit much earlier than with the more expensive standard equipment.

Regards
Dennis


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## txbeeguy

I don't experience this problem with my top bars. The main reason is that I built my TBH a little longer (wider?) than the 30 top bars to allow for a 'follower board'. And to this follower board I put a strip of that self-adheasive, high-density weather striping. This seals the gap between the follower board and the last top bar and since the weather striping is a little "spongy", it expands or contracts to allow for the top bars to fit in nicely under any moisture conditions. This is visible in several of my photos and can been seen as the 'grey' line across the TBH.


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## Hal

Thanks...That's a great idea. I glued in a thin board at the end becasue of a little space when I was building these hives. I'll just take the board out and modify it...Great idea!


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## Michael Bush

Here's a picture of the box I put my top bars in for starting out. It's a lanstroth deep box with a plexiglass window on it. The top bars are 1 1/2" wide with a blank starter strip (no embossing) on it. I' curious to see the orientation, size etc.
http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/bush/bush3.htm 

Here's a view of the cluster of bees inside:
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/images/BeesOnTopBars.jpg


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## txbeeguy

Wow Michael, I'm impressed. (Good job)
That's quite a cluster of bees!

I'm sure you're planning on posting the 
results of your bees drawing out wax and 
it's orientation. I'm a little skeptical 
about this center comb idea (as well as 
the cell orientation) making any kind of 
REAL difference in the hive.


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## Michael Bush

I have to admit a problem with the center comb concept. The orientation makes some sense to me having had foundation that they wouldn't draw until I reveresed it, even though I didn't know anything about positioning. But I am both open minded and skeptical when it comes to anything.









I will let you know what I observe. I just don't want to disturb them at this point. Probably I won't disturb them as long as things look good, until they start running out of room. Then I will transfer them to a long trough hive.


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## txbeeguy

Yep, I agree about not distrubing them too 
much; I've been reluctant to get into my TBH 
for the same reason. I'd rather let them get 
"well settled" before I start making regular 
visits to 'check on them'. About the biggest 
pest I make of myself, is to quickly swap out an empty sugar syrup jar for a full one 
on an entrance feeder once every three or 
four days. 
The next real check I do probably won't be 
for a couple of weeks when I'm hoping to 
see evidence of the queen having started 
laying eggs. (I can see some good signs like 
the field bees bringing in pollen - so hopefully 
they're here to stay). As the temperatures 
warm up, I will also remove my 'false' bottom 
board to expose the screened bottom of the 
hive. At that time, I'm planning on taking 
a few more photos from inside the hive (from the back that's hinged and can be opened) - should make for some interesting 
pictures.


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## Michael Bush

I checked my top bar hive today. I reported the comb positioning under Cell Calls. The bees seem to be doing well. I really am enjoying using the blank starter strips so they can do their thing and I can watch.


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## txbeeguy

Also checked on my TBH this past weekend and everything seems to be going great. The combs had been drawn out deeper and about the top third (closest to the bar) had capped honey with brood in the bottom two-thirds of the comb. The bees are drawing it straight across the bar (in alignment with the starter strips). They show no signs of trying to attach it to the sides of the hive (at least, so far). I saw the queen on about the sixth bar back from the entrance. 
The two bars I had rotated from the back of the hive to the front, in hopes of getting them to draw out comb a little faster, were not being worked as much as the comb toward the back of the hive. Thus, the suggestion to not rotate the top bars toward the front seems to be the correct suggestion. So far, the bees have begun to pull wax on nine top bars (I have the follower board set at fifteen top bars at present). I have not removed the false bottom board yet so I'm still not operating with a screened bottom board. Once the temps get hot, I will remove the "bottom board" and see how the bees react to the open screend bottom of the hive. So far, so good.


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## Michael Bush

>The two bars I had rotated from the back of the hive to the front, in hopes of getting them to draw out comb a little faster, were not being worked as much as the comb toward the back of the hive. Thus, the suggestion to not rotate the top bars toward the front seems to be the correct suggestion.

I figure the bees know what they are doing. I'll just let them.


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## BWrangler

Greetings,

I've now got bees in my tbh. For some pics of my finished hive see: 
http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/murrell/index.htm 

Blank starter strips about 1 inch wide were dipped and fastened in a kerf on the topbars. I think that's too wide as several were broken off by the weight of the clustering bees.

It appears that they put most of their hanging weight on the wax strip and not very much on the topbar. 

Maybe a shorter strip would work better. Say one with about 1/4" of hang.

I will also try an approach used by W. Mangum? A couple strips of wood are placed beside the kerf forming a small mold. Molten wax is poured in and a small ridge is left when the wood strips are removed.

Am I still trying to make a simple problem complex? Maybe just fill the kerf with beeswax would be enough.

Any thoughts? Experience?

The bees have started to drawn out topbar #3 from the front of the hive and are working on the others to a lesser extent.

Regards
Dennis


[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited May 15, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited May 15, 2003).]


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## Michael Bush

My strips were about 1/2" wide and I waxed them into the grooves with a wax tube fastener. I waxed both sides of the strip so it is anchored in the kerf with molten wax. None fell out from the weight of the bees. I made the strips pretty thick by multiple dipping the boards when making the sheets of foundation. Most were just a hair under 1/8" thick.


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## Steve-

This is the first time I have posted to this TBH forum. I am in my third year with a TBH and have recently expanded to two hives. My experience is not as deep as some on this forum. 

But when it come to starter strips and such I now let the bees take care of it. My first year I did start some strips (3 if I remember )after the bees started drawing it I would add a new bar between two bars that were being drawn. This method worked until I had 4 or 5 bars started. I then stopped inserting blank bars - I just let the bees take their own measurements for the bars that followed and I have had no problems with cross comb or such. The problem I did have though was I made my original hive too deep and as the bees filled the comb with honey and brood on really HOT days here in the Ms Delta I would sometimes lose a comb to the weight. I have straight sided boxes and not sloped sides that may have contributed to my weight problem (1 gallon of harvested honey per bar). With my second hive I just started them on a couple of bars I had harvested from my first hive (a quarter inch of wax remained on the bar after harvest). That is how I now get them started without strips.

For those of you who have been doing this for awhile how much Drone comb is drawn by your hives? I have plenty of honey to harvest and a ton of worker brood but I also have a large amount of drawn Drone comb. 

Mr. Bush how do I post pics and PDF files to this forum. I have made a tool that assists when I am inspecting that I want to share with you all. The tool is used to cut brace comb on the side of the hive during inspection.

steve

------------------


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## txbeeguy

I used the exact same technique as Michael Bush: starter strips that hang down below the bar by about 1/2-inch in a groove and held there by pouring melted wax on the strip and in the groove (both sides). The groove was about 1/8-inch deep. The swarm hung from these starter strips without any problem and almost immediately started drawing them out.
Steve, I for one, would like to see the pic of your tool used for cutting/breaking the brace comb. (Pictures of my TBH are on my Yahoo profile).


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## Michael Bush

>For those of you who have been doing this for awhile how much Drone comb is drawn by your hives? I have plenty of honey to harvest and a ton of worker brood but I also have a large amount of drawn Drone comb. 

I figure the natural percent of drone is about 10%. That means one in 10 cells is drone. It's higher than most people using worker foundation keep, but it's what the bees seem to like. Unfortunatlely, it does seem to increase over time, so I would cull frames that have more than 10% drone. You can either move them to the back of the hive and wait for them to hatch, or wait until they hatch and they get filled with honey and then press them. Of course the wax isn't so easy to clean with the cocoons in it.

>Mr. Bush how do I post pics and PDF files to this forum. I have made a tool that assists when I am inspecting that I want to share with you all. The tool is used to cut brace comb on the side of the hive during inspection.

If you want them actually on this site, you can email them to Barry, the board's owner and see if he will post them. If you have somewhere to put them that is available to the internet, you can just post a link to there in your message. I have some that Barry posted and now I have a few that are on my web site that I just put in a link to. You can start a breifcase in Yahoo. I think it's free and you can post pictures there. Someone has posted other places that allow you to post pictures for free also. I don't know what they are, but you might find them if you search for "post" and "pictures" on these forums.


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## Barry

> Maybe just fill the kerf with beeswax would be enough.

Dennis -

I have no doubt that the bees would do just fine with a wax filled kerf. I have some top bars that have no kerf in them and will see what the bees do, but I'll guess they will do well, just as they do in the feral.

Regards,
Barry


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## BWrangler

Greetings,

I dipped my blank starter strips about six times and they are about 1/16" thick and 1" wide. Maybe a little flimsy.

Would an insulated cover prevent the sagging comb caused by heat? I have lots to learn.

I bought a couple of those old woooden screen door type fastener to hold down the cover without the bricks. They are a couple of eye screws, one with a hook linked into it that slips into the other eyescrew. They are called hooks and eyes on the package.

I know Barry is swamped right now for time. Maybe I could setup a group on yahoo as a temporary area to post pictures for beesource members.

Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

I think ventilation is the best solution to sagging. I can't think of a really simple system, but I can think of several. For one, a screened bottom board adds a lot of ventilation.


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## dragonfly

Steve, I also would love to see the tool for cutting away brace comb. I have wondered if one of those really old flexible bread knives would work well, but haven't tried it yet. I haven't had any problems with the weight of the comb causing sagging or breaking of the comb, but I do use ventilated bottoms and tops also. I have the hives where they get afternoon shade which really seems to help too.


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## dragonfly

Steve, forgot to add something else. I do find that in the top bar hive, there seems to be lots of drone brood comb. Not sure why. Maybe bees in the wild have more drones than our domestic Langs???


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## Steve-

Dragonfly:
I am working on a webpage and I will post plans and pics of the cutting tool I mentioned. I sent a couple of pics of it to txbeeguy - he might post it to his page or make comment on his impression of what I sent him. 

I think the tool is very simple - a thin metal shaft (I used an old car radio antenna-the solid rod type)18" to 20" in length. I bent the lower 5" to a 90 degree angle. I then moved 1 1/2" and bent it another 90 degree angle. The shaft now looks like a metal "J". Next I took my hacksaw and cut a notch around the tip of the short turned up end. I then cut a notch in the long shaft on a slight slant from the first notch. I then took florist wire and connected it to the first notch with a couple of tight wraps. The wire was then pulled tight to the second notch wrapped and clipped for a close fit. The wire is on slight pitch if you view it from the side (I thought this pitch might help as it sliced through comb). Make the 90 degree bends so the tool lays flat on a table. I have been pleased with the results so far. I will be glad to attach a picture to an e-mail and send it your way (just drop me a note my e-mail is in my profile).

Several folks have mentioned sagging combs - since I resized my hives I have had no problems (my first hive was a bit oversized







- in my first hive I had comb that measured 18"Lx23"D).


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## BWrangler

Greetings,

It's been six days since I shook some small cell bees into my TBH and have a few observations.

My bee brush is more important than my hive tool. It's pretty easy to scrunch a few bees between the top bars when pushing them together, especially if you an experienced standard type hive beekeeper like me.

In a standard hive many are also probably scrunched when setting the supers together but the evidence isn't so obvious when the hives are opened later.

Have you ever waited for a bee to zig before moving a topbar only to discover that at the last millisecond it zagged instead.:> )

The bees are definately less disturbed or annoyed when the tbh is worked compared to a standard hive. I found very little smoke was needed, a very positive factor for my breathing.

The bees begin drawing out comb from the bottom edge of blank starter strip. After some comb is drawn, they work upwards on the starter strip toward the topbar. If you are using blank starter strips make them short and stout so they won't fail.

Starter strips might not be needed at all, at least blank ones. A saw kerf filled with beeswax probably would work better.

Once the bees become oriented and some comb is drawn, they can be shaken or brushed off at the rear of the hive and they quietly march right back toward the darken area of the hive. Nice!

New comb is very beautiful and working the tbh is a joy! I am hooked.

Contrary to what some in the bee mags say tbhs are the ideal hive to start with.

I'v taken some pics and will send them to Barry shortly.

I'm also posting some of my observations concerning comb construct and orientation in "Making Cell Call"

Happy TBHing
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

>My bee brush is more important than my hive tool. It's pretty easy to scrunch a few bees between the top bars when pushing them together...

I have had this problem also. I've been just smoking them back down to push it together.

>Have you ever waited for a bee to zig before moving a topbar only to discover that at the last millisecond it zagged instead.:> )

Yes. It seems like this is a bigger problem than ever with top bars.

>The bees are definately less disturbed or annoyed when the tbh is worked compared to a standard hive.

Definitely. It's because less bees are exposed.

>The bees begin drawing out comb from the bottom edge of blank starter strip. After some comb is drawn, they work upwards on the starter strip toward the topbar. If you are using blank starter strips make them short and stout so they won't fail.

They did do that. I made mine thick thinking they might be inclined to pull some of the excess wax out and it would give them a bit of a start, but also for strength.

>Starter strips might not be needed at all, at least blank ones. A saw kerf filled with beeswax probably would work better.

I didn't do 1 3/8" spacing like I should have (for a package of 5.4mm bees) I was lazy and did 1 1/2". And even with the starter strips they build a couple of small combs between the bars instead of on the strips. I think the strips helped, though, because the rest were build using the strips. Maybe if you spacing was better the strips would be less necessary, but if I cut a groove, it's not that hard to add a blank strip instead of just waxing the groove.

>Once the bees become oriented and some comb is drawn, they can be shaken or brushed off at the rear of the hive and they quietly march right back toward the darken area of the hive. Nice!

I hadn't thought of that technique. I usually end up brushing them off on the entrance and they half of them decide to fly.

>New comb is very beautiful and working the tbh is a joy!

I love to see what the bees build by themselves. It seems so different from them drawing out sheets of foundation on frames.

>Contrary to what some in the bee mags say tbhs are the ideal hive to start with.

I agree. They are cheap. You have less invested, the bees are easier to handle in them. You just have to be more careful, which is something a beekeeper should learn anyway.


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## BWrangler

Greetings,

The pics of my small cell bees starting to work in my tbh can be seen at:
http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/murrell/index.htm 

Just click on a picture if you want a larger view and some text. 

Some of the shots clearly show how the bees work the longer, blank starter strips.

I have the top bars spaced at 1 1/4". That's the measure I have observed the bees prefer in my small cell colonies in standard equipment. And also what has been observed for brood comb by others in truely feral European bees in NZ.

Regards
Dennis

[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited May 18, 2003).]


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## Steve-

BWrangler,

Your pics looked great. Please comment on your top bar center supports and how they are working out (what you expected and so forth. Also, how are you venting your hives? A number of tbh's I have seen pics of have vent notchs cut in each top bar. 
Steve


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## BWrangler

Hello Steve,

The vertical support was designed to reinforce the comb against breakage. The comb is weakest in it's attachment to the topbar. If forces were applied to the comb which would rotate it perpendicular to its attachment at the topbar it would easily break off. The vertical support allows another point of attachment for the comb to prevent it from swaying and breaking.

I move my hives twice a year and can easly see those kinds of forces being generated during the move. I think new comb would be expecially vulnerable. Maybe when it's old, dark and tough as shoe leather it wouldn/t matter but I plan on rotating the comb out on about a three year basis.

The vertical support is glued and nailed to the top bar. It's 1/4" thick, 3/4" wide and long enough to just leave a bee space at the bottom of the hive. I think I would make them a little shorter now. Maybe an inch or two from the bottom of the hive.

I had also planned to cut a communication hole in the comb on either side of the vertical support near the top bar. It appears I won't have to cut them as the bees are leaving them at that spot.

I haven't cut any additional vent holes into my tbh. Our climate is cool and windy, it's snowing outside again today. But will be near 80 degrees by the end of the week. That's Wyoming!

We normally have about a 35-40 degree daily differential in temps. When it's 95 degrees during the day, that night temps will be near 60 degrees. More ventilation may be required in a hotter climate. 

Research done at Cornell indicates a swarm will reject a cavity with light at its top and prefers one with a bottom entrance of about 1 1/4". Another study indicates 15 square centimeters is the preferred entrance area. 

Last winter Barry Birkey in Chicago and I both kept a plex cover on a standard hive to monitor moisture levels. In our climates winter moisture was not a problem. In my climate it was an advantage. So for now,I've just got the 3/4" holes at the front of the hive

But I've got my drill ready just in case. I would probably drill some vertical holes in the topbar part of my follower board and vent out through the rear of the cover. The follower could simply be rotated to vent or not vent the hive.

I like the idea of a narrow slot that runs the length of the tbh that others have incorporated into their tbhs. It can function as an entrance, cleanout, mite screen, and ventilator. Very flexible. Nice.

My tbh was designed to be simple to build and cheap and as fast as possible. One that would be stable with livestock, transportable and stackable(although I did build a sloped rather than a flat lid for this one).

It is the prototype for a potential sideline operation based on tbhs rather langs. 

I hope to build a really neat one like those built by others in this forum in the future

Regards
Dennis


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## Russ

How do I find the Pictures????????? Dale


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## BWrangler

Greetings,

Try: http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/murrell/index.htm 

Regards 
Dennis


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## txbeeguy

Photos looked great! I'm assuming, from the photos, the wood verticle support is the same width as the top bar. If so, this leads me to belive that 'bee space' has not been provided for between the wooden verticle support pieces. I'm guessing that eventually you're going to experience 'brace comb' in effect, glueing this pieces together, thus making the top bars difficult to separate. Comments?


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## BWrangler

Greetings Txbeeguy,

My top bar is 1 1/4" wide and the vertical support is 3/4" wide. If construction were perfect and the frames set in the hive correctly no problem should result. 

But a good modification might be to make the supports not so wide and a little thicker.

Regards
Dennis


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## Hal

Hi All,
I am enjoying reading about the information you all give and looking/pondering on the hives that you are all building. I checked my hives last night and found that 3 of the five hives have built queen cells. These hives are just new this year. Any advice on why they are trying to raise new queens? One of the hives have as many as 30 queen cells. What should I do? Can I split my hives already? Help...


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## Michael Bush

I'd say if there are that many cells they are planning to swarm. Where are the cells? On the bottom of the combs? Near the top of the combs?

You could do a split if you have another hive that the bars will fit in.

You could set a swarm trap, check them every morning and hope you can catch the swarm(s).

You could do the hopless task of trying to destroy all the cells and they make more anyway.


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## Hal

Hi All,
I am enjoying reading about the information you all give and looking/pondering on the hives that you are all building. I checked my hives last night and found that 3 of the five hives have built queen cells. These hives are just new this year. Any advice on why they are trying to raise new queens? One of the hives have as many as 30 queen cells. What should I do? Can I split my hives already? Help...


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## Michael Bush

>My top bar is 1 1/4" wide and the vertical support is 3/4" wide. If construction were perfect and the frames set in the hive correctly no problem should result. 

>But a good modification might be to make the supports not so wide and a little thicker.

It looks like the support breaks up the comb a bit. It's like they are building two combs, one on each side. How about making it a lot smaller, like an 1/8" dowel? I understand why you want a support, if I was moving them a lot I'd probably want one too. I've seen pictures of a sort of TBH that has frames. I say sort of because the bars are solid across the top but there are frames. These were done with dowells for the side bars and a smaller dowell for the bottom bar. This would give a lot of strength and not break up the comb so much. Still, I think the 1/8" dowell might do fine. You could also do one on each end without a bottom and make them 1/8" dowell.


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## Hal

The cells are all over the place on the combs. Middle, top, bottom...It doesn't seem like my hives are crowded? If I split my hives and place one of these frames in an empty hive with the bees that are on the frame, will that work on the split? I'll probably need to feed this new hive sugar water for a while until they get their reserves built up? What do you think Mike?
Thanks...


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## Hal

The queen cells are placed all over the comb. When splitting this hive, can I just take a frame with queen cells (and worker bees) and put in an empty hive? I would probably have to feed them sugar water until this hive gets up and going, right Michael?


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## Michael Bush

Odd that they are "all over" I would expect them to be either near or on the bottom. Or to be near the top. 

One bar is not really enough to get a hive started. You can take about three bars of bees and put them in a 5 frame nuc of some kind and they will probably do all right. The same in a 10 frame box may not be able to keep it warm enough on the chilly nights. Your problem is you have to do something quite suddenly or they will swarm. Can you build a box the size of 5 bars? Or do you have a good bee tight follower and a larger box? If so this could probably work with at least three frames of bees for each split. Ideally, I'd like to see a frame of emerging brood, two other frames containing at least some open brood and two more with honey and pollen, which is five frames of bees.


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## BWrangler

Greetings,

I looked into my TBH yesterday and those wide strips are definately a bad idea and not needed. Where several had pulled out the bees readily constructed comb centered and aligned with the saw kerf having that had only a small amount of beeswax in the bottom of it.

So I trimmed the remaining starter strips to about 1/4". They are less likely to be damaged during hive inspections when shorter.

It's quite obvious that just a bead of wax down the kerf would be more than adequate. It would be alot faster, more robust, etc.

Regards
Dennis


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## dragonfly

I found out something that will be useful for making the top bars in the future to avoid crushing bees when pushing the bars back together. In one of my tbh's, I made an "end piece" that is stationary to make the bee space in front right. Hope you understand what I am describing. Anyway, this end piece had a flaw in it which essentially was a bowed in surface to the inside of the hive. The bees are able to move in and out without difficulty. You have to keep in mind that I use ventilated tops with an attic space, so I have ventilation holes in the top bars anyway, but now I will be making the top bars usual width at each end, and cutting out a small strip in each side of the bar to allow for bee movement up to the attic space. This should make the crushing minimal and closing the hives back up much simpler.


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## Michael Bush

It has advantages and disadvantages. One advantage to standard top bars with no holes is that you don't expose very many bees at one time. The disadvantage over your system is that you have trouble putting the bars back without squashing bees.


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## Joel Acheson

Nice pictures, Dennis! It's interesting, the color you painted it is almost the same shade most of mine end up. You must be getting your paint out of the mismatched paint bin at the same hardware store that I do.

Is it a general consensus that the sloping side TBH works out better than a straight sided one, or is that just your personal preference? I would like to try one this year, but don't know which way would work better. I could always do one of each, but then that sounds like a lot more work, too. Plus, regardless of which one did best, one would always be left with the ponder of whether it was the hive design which was better, or the individual hive?


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## BWrangler

Greetings Joel,

I have had the same question about the value of sloped sides. Somewhere I read that it didn't make much difference, yet almost all TBHs have the sloped sides.

This last week I put my pencil to the paper and plan to build a straight sided version of my TBH as a test.

My pencil wandered a little farther and I think a TBH could be built from new material for about $20 using OSB and 2x4s.

Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

In the past I had only done the sloped sides. I just started my first with straight sides after reading Satterfields writings on the subject. So far it's working very nicely and has the advantage that I can pull a frame of brood etc. from one of my hives and it will fit fine.

As they fill it, I will find how much of a problem attaching the sides will be. I think mostly you just have to pay attention and be ready to cut a few burrs.


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## txbeeguy

The main school of thought as originally advanced with the Kenyan-style (i.e., sloped sides) TBH, was that since the bees "recgonize" the straight downward pull of gravity (as understood in their 'bee dance' theory) and the fact they don't attach burr or brace comb to the bottom floor of a nest, then the angled sides are, in effect, recgonized by the bees as a "floor" and thus they don't attach brace comb to the sloped sides. At least, so goes the theory... 
Now with the Tanizanian-style (verticle sides) TBH, this idea is thrown out the window. Some people believe that there is no more attached brace comb on the verticle sided hive than there is with a sloped sided hive. 
My first TBH I've built was a Kenyan style TBH. However, the actual top bars are the same length that will fit into a regular Langstroth brood box. I got the Kenyan TBH established this Spring and will place top bars in a Langstroth brood box (i.e., Tanzianian-style TBH) a little later. In this fashion, I plan to run my own little test to see if there is any noticable difference between the amount of comb being attached to the sides of the hives. 
My top bars have a grove cut in them, down the middle, about an 1/8-inch deep. I used melted beeswax to hold starter strip foundation in place. The starter strips extended below the bar anywhere from a 1/4-inch to maybe as much as a 1/2-inch (this can be seen in some of the photos in my yahoo briefcase). http://profiles.yahoo.com/txbeeguy


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## Michael Bush

When I built my first TBH I'd never heard of a top bar hive other than the basket ones the Greeks build. It was this that gave me the idea for it. The information I had read on the Greek hives was that the sides were sloped and the bees did not attach the combs to the sides. I didn't have a concept of a trough hive, so I built a box the size of a Langstroth on top and sloped on the long sides (the bars ran the long way instead of the short way as a Lanstroth does). I was thinking the combs were smaller on the bottom so I wanted them long. I also wanted to be able to super it. I left a quarter inch crack on the outside of the last bars on the edge for the bees to go up into a super. Also a standard top would fit on it. I also built another slope sided box to put under, but was afraid of stability as it got wider at the top. Anyway, the bees didn't attach other than a small amount of burr to the sides. The thing about a TBH is that even a small amount of burr can cause more problems than with a frame because there is no support for the comb. You have to be sure you aren't attached to anything before you pull a bar out. It's just the way it is whether it's sloped or not.


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## Steve-

Hello All:

Mr. Bush made a comment that any amount of comb attachment can be a problem for TBH's. I agree - I have witnessed comb slowly tear across a whole bar because I did not see or find a spot of attached brace comb. I find that brace or burr is placed at varying intervals along the wall side of the comb. After using different methods of freeing the comb, I began to think about how to make some of the cutting devices I had read about here on the net. I mentioned it several days back. Below you will find a reposting of an earlier reply I made and a link to a site with two photos of the tool. The rest of my site does not work yet but you can see pictures of my comb cutter!

Previous Posting
"I think the tool is very simple - a thin metal shaft (I used an old car radio antenna-the solid rod type) 18" to 20" in length. I bent the lower 5" to a 90-degree angle. I then moved 1 1/2" and bent it another 90-degree angle. The shaft now looks like a metal "J". Next I took my hacksaw and cut a notch around the tip of the short turned up end. I then cut a notch in the long shaft on a slight slant from the first notch. I then took florist wire and connected it to the first notch with a couple of tight wraps. The wire was then pulled tight to the second notch wrapped and clipped for a close fit. The wire is on slight pitch if you view it from the side (I thought this pitch might help as it sliced through comb). Make the 90 degree bends so the tool lays flat on a table. I have been pleased with the results so far. I will be glad to attach a picture to an e-mail and send it your way (just drop me a note my e-mail is in my profile)."

Link to photos: http://www.geocities.com/five_watsons/combcuttingtool.html 

Maybe someone will make improvements and share with the rest of us.
Steve


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## BWrangler

Hi Steve,

That's a neat idea for cutting brace comb.

TBH guys, check out the picture. I didn't quite understand it from the description. 

Thanks
Dennis
Who was the one lacking the understanding, not the description


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## BWrangler

Greetings Everyone,

I'm learning more about how to work the top bar hive each week. I had commented before about the danger of squishing bees with the top bars. Initially, I use a bee brush to avoid those accidents. But a better menthod is available.

Rather, than horizontally sliding the topbars into place, slide the topbar almost into position horizontally. Then lift the topbar vertically the width of the topbar and gently place it into position. I only used the bee brush a couple of times today and not a bee was squashed.

Also, naturally drawn comb is unbelievably beautiful. Structures brood and useage follow the catenary shape of the curve downward. The complexity and variety are really neat.

It's tougher and more easy to handle than I thought it would be. I will probably not use the comb reinforcements on my next tbh. I like the looks of unrestricted comb that much.

Regards
Dennis
Confessions of a self spacing frame slider :> )

[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited June 02, 2003).]


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## Michael Bush

Update on my top bar hive.

First, I am amazed how much the comb varies in size and orientation not only throughout the hive but rhoughout one comb. It is quite beautiful

Second. I moved them from one Langstroth box to a double box today. They did attach the ends of the comb. Mine built all the comb to one side of the bars and that side was attached on every comb. I think next time I'll use frames for the brood nest and top bars for the supering. It wouldn't be bad if I was harvesting it, but it's bad when it's on brood comb. Since my boxes are lanstroth width the frames will work fine. I did use sloped sides before and got only some burr connections, not solid connections like this. Those of you with sloped sides, let us know how that goes.


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## BWrangler

Greetings Michael and Everyone,

Greetings Everyone,

Another week has gone by and I was into the top bar hive. It was a really nasty day for working bees. No nectar for several days, a strong cold front with thunderstorms had just passed through and the temps had dropped about 30 degrees with a cold wind. I worked without a veil and smoker until the last two topbars. No place for the bees to run to and they were nasty. 

No obvious pattern for cell base orientation. Bees still drawing larger cells.

First comb attachment to the hive. A small area less than 1" long on one comb. As 4 combs are a beespace from the wall, I don't consider it a problem.

The bees insist on bending the edges of several combs toward the front of the hive about 1/3 topbar width. I have cut them and bent them back. Maybe the bees will reattach them in a straigher fashion.

Regards
Dennis


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## Steve-

Morning All:

Some mention of burr attachment has been commented on or the lack of it. I have noticed that in my TBH's that the attachment is random and never near the bottom of the comb - I guess because of the natural curve of the comb - but I have found most attachment near the top of the comb or as a continuation from the top bar to the hive wall. I am not certain as to why they build the length of the top bar and then continue on to the hive wall(bee space should not be an issue). Burr does not show up on all Top Bars just some. If comb is new the attachment of burr can cause comb to split from the top bar if you do not see it to remove it. 

I have been watching an interesting process for two days now. Drones in all stages of development are being removed from the hive. I should say capped drones are being removed. 
We have not had cool nights or rain. Some of the Drone Brood is just before hatching (they are alive and moving but not fully developed) but being removed anyway. I have little to none SWD present, very few V-mites. So I guess I will wonder what's up - but it is interesting behavior to watch. Maybe they decided they have had enough of the guys.

Steve


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## Michael Bush

I have a plan for next time. I think I'll make a top bar that is 1 3/8" wide and drill holes for standard deep side bars to go in and make a frame with a top bar. That way I'll block the bees from exposure like the top bar, but have the support of a frame for the brood chamber. I'll probably just use bars for the harvestable honey.


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## Steve-

M,

Would it be easier to center a complete standard frame under your top bars and then attach? I know that would make for a thick top bar but to get your spacing right wouldn't that be more simple.

steve


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## Michael Bush

I was thinking in terms of being able to use frames or top bars. That way I could just steal a frame of brood or eggs etc from a hive and put it in the top bar hive. I suppose you still could but you have to attach the top bar to the frame while there are bees on it.

Another option, which you could do on any hive, is use 1 x 4 slats for the inner cover and remove only the ones you need to. Tnen you could use regular top bars from frames or make top bars and you don't care about the spaces.


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## txbeeguy

Checked my TBH this past weekend and it's doing great. The bees have built on nine top bars so far and starting comb on the tenth one. I've removed the "bottom board" and the colony is getting a fairly large population built up now. Several of the combs are quite large now and follow the contour of the sloped sides exactly. That is to say, there is no burr comb attached to the sides at all. The combs take the general shape of a triangle with the base being the top bar and then angles down to a rounded "point" (towards the bottom of the trough). I think this will have the added (and unforeseen) benefit of making the comb less likely to break. The comb is strongest at the point of attachement (i.e., all along the top bar) and the further the distance from the top bar, the less comb (and thus, weight) there is to support. 
I also tried a little different techinque when putting the bars back together so as to not crush bees between the top bars. I put one bar together next to the other on only one side (one end) and then slowly decreased the spacing between bars - to help encourage the bees to move - those that didn't move, I cleared the space with my hive tool by just making a quick pass down between the top bars. This cleared the space and allowed me to push the bars together completely. 
An interesting observation I've noticed the last two times I've worked the TBH is that I've found the queen on the same end comb (that is, the comb closest to the front entrance). I tend to work the hive, starting from the back (about top bar #10 or 11) and work towards the front. Since light is entering the hive mainly at the point where I'm removing the top bars, I suppose the queen is moving towards the front of the hive (towards the darker area). Thus, by the time I'm at the frontmost comb, there she is (having no further combs to move to). The rapid movement of the queen is a little interesting to me since this isn't so observable in a normal Langstroth hive. It was apparent she had been located on about comb #5 or #6 since that's were the most recent eggs had been laid.


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## BWrangler

Hello TxBeeGuy and Everyone,

It's interesting my bees are just starting on topbar 10 and I have had much of the same kind of experience. Only one small attachment, less than an inch. The bees have drawn out the rest leaving a beespace between the edge of the comb and the side of the tbh. 

They are in a yellow sweet clover honey flow and continue to draw out more comb with any attachments. It's better than I imagined.

I have also notice how mobile the queen is in the Tbh. She lays on a comb as soon as any space is available. It's quite different compared to what I have seen in my standard hives.

When I have looked for her, I found her easily.

I had planned to replace this queen as her brood pattern in my small cell hives was not too good. Her brood pattern in the Tbh is excellent.

I had wondered if she might not move as easy horizontally as she would vertically before building the Tbh. Maybe I have been reading too many of those vertical oriented bee books :> )

I haven't seen a mite or any mite damage in the Tbh. If need be I will treat with a noncontaiminating method like powdered sugar.

These bees had a mild case of chalkbrood when in the standard hives. After shaking in the tbh, I haven't seen a single mummy.

It's interesting to watch the bees orient to the developing edge of the comb. Brood, pollen, etc arch downward and follow the contour of bottom edge of the comb. Much different what I see in the standard equipment.

Happy Tbhing
Dennis


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## dmcdonald

I've got two top-bar hives. I just started this spring, and haven't done beekeeping any other way. I've been fortunate, in that here in NM there are several top-bar beekeepers who are doing it on a large scale (more than 50 hives). In fact, there's at least one beekeeper here supporting himself and a family with this method of beekeeping. Anyway, because this area seems to be a hotbed of TBH beekeeping, I've had good mentoring. The design I'm using is from Marty Hardison, who was one of the TBH pioneers here. It has sloped sides and takes about 30 bars. I've put insulation in the lids of my hives, because I'd heard about problems with sagging combs. So far, even on the hottest days, the bees don't seem to have to work to keep the hive cool.

For cutting comb attachments, I've been using an old hacksaw blade. It's just the right length and thickness, to slip along the side of the hive and gently cut the comb free. I've also found the end of it to be useful for digging out queen cells.

Despite working without gloves, I haven't yet been stung, which I attribute to the inherent gentleness (on the bees) of this style of hive. I've arrived at the same method someone else described, of easing the bars downward, instead of horizontally, to avoid crushing bees. 

Has anyone found a good way to do pollen trapping with a top-bar hive? I'm hoping to find or make a trap which would fit over a row of holes bored midway up the face of the hive.

To be honest, I never got very interested in beekeeping until I found out about top-bar hives. The simplicity and elegance of it somehow captured my imagination. At this point, I'm madly planning for at least another two hives next season.


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## dmcdonald

One more thing about hive construction: the bars I'm using have a wood strip glued into the saw kerf which runs down the middle of the bar. This seems to work well: the only caveat seems to be that the strip shouldn't project out more than 1/2"--I read that a deeper strip causes distorted comb. Anyway, the bees quite happily build comb using these wood ridges as a starting point. I did have an old empty brood comb in each hive to start with, given to me by another TBH beekeeper. That comb at the front of the hive seemed to help the bees build the next comb with the proper orientation. From there, the comb-building has gone well.


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## airbalancer

Hello all
I just posted a couple of new picture of the TBH. I got a great one of the bees on freshly drawn comb from inside the hive. Just thought I would share








Enjoy
Mike









http://home.attbi.com/%7Ethomas24/TBH.htm 
http://www.appleblossomlane.com


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## BWrangler

Hi Mike,

Your Tbh appears to be in the perfect place with it shingles and green paint. 

The cleanout has an advantage for photography too.

Thanks for the shots.

Regards
Dennis
Guess who just bought some more lumber for my second Tbh.


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## Jack Grimshaw

Hi Mike ,
I like your chicken coop but I think you might have too much time on your hands...
Just kidding-----now if you could only figure out how to get the eggs washed and into the fridge.
Fellow chicken owner Jack


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## airbalancer

Thanks Jack,
Maybe I could teach the bees to do it









Mike


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## BWrangler

Greetings Everyone,

It has been a week since I installed small cell foundation starter 
strips in the topbars next to the drawn comb in my topbar hive.

The bees constructed about half a row of small cells next to the 
topbar. Then promply switched to the size they preferred. Apparently 
they didn't get the hint. It appears they actively know what size 
they want and where they want it.

The comb seems more firmly attached to the topbar compared to the 
wide blank starter strips I used previously used. A bead of beeswax 
down the center of the topbar is probably more than sufficient. Wide 
starter strips are detrimental. Starter strips are probably a waste 
of time.

I am going to build a little mold out of wood that will set on top of the topbar and allow me to pour molten wax into the grove. A small ridge of beeswax, about 1/2 cell high will remain above the grove when the mold is removed.

Regards
Dennis

I have seen some smaller bees at the entrance of the tbh. They could 
have drifted from my small cell hives in the same yard. Will give the hive a more detail inspection next week.

[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited June 22, 2003).]


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## BWrangler

Hello,

The bees in my tbh have constructed the equivalent to a deep super and half of comb. Another 16 topbars are unoccupied so they have plenty of room. Yet they want to swarm.

Anyone else having that same experience?

It appears that once they reach an optimal size they will swarm no matter how much space is available.

Comments?

Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

What breed were they?

It seems to me it depends on several things. The time of year, the success of the hive, the breed of the bees and the amount of room. If several of these push the same direction they will swarm even if all of them are not there. Sometimes they will swarm at the wrong time. Sometimes they will swarm when they have room. Sometimes they will swarm when they are not succeeding.


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## BWrangler

Greetings,

I worked with my Tbh today. A very nasty day with a winter storm warning for tonight. Sat by the hive for over ah hour without any protection and removed any traces of starter strips from the topbars leaving only the saw kerf filled with beeswax. Quite a pleasant experience with no disturbance to the bees at all.

As the makeup of my hive changes from small cell (4.9mm) bees to larger (5.3mm) cell bees, the bees needs for a larger topbar width is becoming apparent. Initially, I used 1 1/4". It worked perfectly for the first 9 topbars but the center of the any new comb is now drifting slightly toward the rear of the hive. I will use 1 3/8" width next time.

Regards
Dennis


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## chiefman

Dennis

I love your hive design.

I want to biuld one with the top bars 19" inches long rather than 24" like your so i can swap them into my lang.

Only thing is your bottom of the hive is about 10" inches wide ( where the holes are )so a hive of 19 inches on the top would mean the bottom of my hive would be about 5" inches wide( if i keep the angle of 22.5 degrees.)

would this be too small for an entrance. I wanted to keep the entrance on the bottom so if water gets in the hive it will just spill out


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## Michael Bush

>I want to biuld one with the top bars 19" inches long rather than 24" like your so i can swap them into my lang.

That's what I did, but with square sides I can go both ways.

>...would mean the bottom of my hive would be about 5" inches wide...would this be too small for an entrance. I wanted to keep the entrance on the bottom so if water gets in the hive it will just spill out

What about a bottom and a top entrance? Or a double decker. Leave the opening across the bottom and another a little above it?

I went with 1 1/2" strips and the bees tried to crowd it a little in the brood chamber but seem content with it in the honey area. Maybe it would be smart to have two different width bars for those two areas?


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## BWrangler

Greetings Chiefman and Everyone,

Research has shown that swarms prefer an entrance of about 15 cm square. I think that works out to around 2 square inches so the bottom would be wide enough for that. But the hive would be very tippy.

Four supporting pieces of 2x6 could be cut as long as the hive is tall with one side cut off at the same angle as the slope of the hive. These pieces could be mounted vertically on each side near the end. Two crosspieces that would go under each supporting piece and the bottom of the hive could be cut. This would add more stability to the hive.

Another alternative would be to forget the bottom board and extend the sides down until a 3/4" slot is left. A hinged board could be fastened down the most of the length of the leaving a entrance on the bottom at one end.

The supporting pieces mentioned above could then be fastened to each end.

Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

I got into my top bar hive today. WHAT A MESS! I will not do straight walls on a TBH again. They attached all over the place. They also didn't follow my strips. From the front of the hive back they kept trying to curve the ends and the end would be on the next bar forward. After the brood nest they just ignored them completely and built some of them at right angles to the bars.

I never did find the queen, I just gave up.

I did take a chunk of comb that broke off. Yummy. The taste is awsome.

My first top bar hive that I built in the early seventies, having never seen a TBH nor a trough hive, was the size of a Lanstroth on top and had sloped sides. The bars were made of scrap 2 x 2's that had a 12 degree angle cut to the center line and a strip of foundation put in a groove down that center line. Then a notch on the ends so they would rest flat. The bees followed this pretty well and I think I may return to it. Although I might just fill the groove with wax. The slope was the same as a cell slopes so that they would want the cell to end up on the ridge of the bar. The biggest problem I had with that one was it was too small. The bars were a lot of work to make with a skill saw though. I also made some using a plane, but they were also a lot of work.


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## BWrangler

Hi Michael and Everyone,

I have been wondering at what angle the bees start attaching the comb. I had thought about building a test box but it would be alot easier to just as all you tbh guys what your experience is.

At 22.5 degrees off vertical only one minor attachment less than 1" long for my thb.

Any other reports, experiences ?

I have also noted a tendancy to bend the ends of the comb toward the hive entrance. I have just cut them and bent them back toward the center of the bar. Not sure it that works yet though.

Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

My first hive, if I remember right, was exactly 22.5 degrees. I can't remember if I got the number from reading something somewhere or averaging out the angle of a natural comb. But I had about the same experience. An occasional little burr running over to the side, but for the most part no significant attachments. It would be interesting to know how much difference it would make if it was 10 degrees or 15 degrees etc. How much of a difference it would make.


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## BWrangler

Hello,

I've got another tbh cut out much like the last one except 6" taller, 6" wider and a 10 degree slope. I'm not sure whether I will put bees in it this season. I'll probably wait as it's getting pretty late in the year here in Wyoming.

And if anyone has experience with tbhs at 10 degrees that could sure save me some trouble if it doesn't work well at that angle.

Regards
Dennis


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## BWrangler

Fantastic Greetings Everyone,

The bees in my Tbh are doing it. They are now building 4.8mm and 4.9mm brood comb in the brood area during a major honey flow! And it's not just scattered patches. They are doing it on the vast majority of combs. Hurray for the bees!!!! 

The bees initially drew comb about 1/3 the depth of the hive and expanded horizontally without lengthing the comb. Since the yellow sweet clover has started to bloom and a major honey flow is on the bees have returned to the brood area and completed the combs.

They started at the topbar with 5.3mm worker and very gradually decreased the size until a little over halfway to the bottom of the hive 4.9mm comb is being drawn uniformly. Two thirds of the way down the 4.8mm comb is being uniformly drawn out.

That feral hive picture of Joe Waggles shows just how the bees do it. Whether they sense the bottom of the cavity or just what triggers the small cell is a mystery. They sure didn't want it where I placed the small cell starter strips! But they do gradually taper the brood comb to small cell size toward the bottom of the nest, even in a shallow nest like my tbh as compared to Joes feral hive.

The first 10 topbars are essentially brood comb and the bees are rapidly constructing honey storage type comb on topbars 11 and 12.

I can't believe such a change can take place in such a short time. I am so happy I could dance!

I have posted some shots on the biobee photo page.

Better Than Best Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

Maybe I'm just not doing this right. 
http://www.gsu.edu/~biojdsx/becomb.htm 

Here, Satterfield says:

"Managing tbh's requires a great deal of cutting and trimming on occasions. A cradle to hold the comb is very useful. I also use a 5-bar "super" often to hold combs that I have removed from the hive for some reason.


Scissors are useful for trimming comb. If it is possible to heat the scissors in boiling water, they cut easier and cleaner. The cradle is seen more clearly in this photo."

Maybe I need to take each bar and trim the sides a bit and clean the burr off of the box and paint it all with FGMO. I've done the FGMO before to cut down on connections, but haven't really bothered this one much. I could cut all the curving ends off and the attchments back a bit. Maybe that's the way to manage it.


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## Steve-

Hello All:

I have not had comb that curved forward or back but I do have comb that is really thick at times. When I encounter a thick comb I have to have more than one bar space to remove it from the hive. The comb will be centered but just wide. I do not usually find it attached at the top to an addtitional bar. When it is harvested I take all of the comb off of the bar instead of leaving some as a pattern to be followed. 

My two hives have straight sides and I do have some comb attachment on the sides but it is not out of hand. I noticed when reading some early comments on this tbh board that concern was given to allowing the bees to draw comb as naturally as possible. I think I have done that except for increasing the number of bars being drawn. Once the bees have started drawing comb I seperate my bars so I can insert an empty bar between two that are being drawn. This does two things: 1. it forces the bees to start a new bar before they may naturally choose to do so. This increases the number of bars with comb at a faster rate. Thus creating additional brood space. 2. the drawn bars act as a pattern for the bar being drawn. I consider this to be part of the management Mr. Satterfield speaks of. 

When I find attachment and I find it on nearly all the bars right where the bar and hive come together. Over time the attachment might grow longer down the side of the box but I try to open and check my hive every week to ten days. It is during this time that I cut and remove comb attachmnet.

In reading this board I too may want to try sloped sided hives.

Happy Hiving
steve


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## Michael Bush

Well, I tried to work it today. It was a disaster. The first two combs were all crosscombed and little short diagnal combs running from one bar to the next. The next to combs were attached on the sides AND the bottom. I put them on a screened bottom board. I wonder if that contributed? In spite of cutting the connections the next two combs fell off on their own. They were about 3/4 honey and 1/4 brood. It was a total mess. I pulled out all of the top bars that weren't drawn and the ones that fell apart, and put in frames.

Maybe Barry is the smart one. The combs need some kind of reinforcement.

I do think the square combs add to the problem. That outside corner full of honey really puts some strain on everything. I didn't have this many problems when I had the sloping sides and the comb was not as wide at the bottom. Also I didn't have problems with them following the bars when I had a slope on the bottom of the top bars.


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## BWrangler

Hi Michael and Everyone,

I used blank starter strips in a saw kerf down the middle of my topbars. Seemed like a good idea at the time, but the bees started drawing comb at the bottom edge of the starter with only a few minor connections between the top bar and most of the drawn comb. It's a really weak point!

I thought the bees would return and reinforce it but the bees haven't returned and really connected the comb to the topbar yet.

Could your starter strip and how it was attached be causing the comb to fail? 

Steve, do you use starter strips or ?

Regards
Dennis


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## Steve-

Hi All:

Michael sorry you had a hard day in the hive. Your story reminded me of similiar happenings in my hive two years ago. I came home after work and it had been running 100+ degrees for three or four days straight. I found honey running out of my hive and comb had sealed the entrance causing the inside to get even hotter. amazingly I did not lose my queen even though I lost 5lbs of bees and several gallons of honey. That was not much fun. Looking at Mr. Satterfield's page it looks as though his hives are pretty shallow. Just my perspective on his pictures.

Dennis - I no longer use starter strips. I did my first year but only for the first 3 or 4 bars. I made my strips too wide that first time around and observed what you described. Once my bees started pulling comb out on those first three or four bars I started inserting blanks between drawn or started comb. I did not and do not use starter strips any more. I don't use anything but a blank bar - no slope or wood strip. Just a plain flat blank 1 3/8" bar. When first made I cut a kerf in all the lumber I use for bars. I have not filled in the kerf. The bars are put on as is - so far the bees pull comb centered down the top bar. Are the centers of the combs right on the kerf and no is the answer - but they are on and off it with the resulting comb being straight. The only difficulty is from time to time I will get an extra wide comb. I had one this weekend that was three inches wide.

Happy Hiving,
steve


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## Michael Bush

It broke right across the top, but the starter strip didn't go with the comb, it stayed attached to the bar. My starter strips are quite thick. I have used sloped top bars in the past and had better luck. Also the combs weren't as large because of the slope the sides on my past hives. Also the bees weren't counting on attachements for reinformcement on my past hives because they didn't attach them. I think I should have either sloped the sides or made the box shallower.


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## BWrangler

Greetings Everyone,

I learned a little lesson today. I have been making a few small horizontal cuts and recentering some of the comb near the edge of the hive. Yesterday, I did the same. Cut about 2 inches in from the end of the topbar to straighten out the end of a comb. Until today it seemed to work fine.

Well, a heavy flow is on and those bees filled that comb with nectar before they reattached the comb. It's hot, very hot. 

The comb failed and unzipped itself from the topbar sometime during the last 24 hours.

Watch those horizontal cuts or any horizontal damage to the comb when it's hot and heavy.

Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

My top bar hive is no more. I checked it today and three of the five remaing top bars had "unzipped". The starter strip is staill attached, but right below that is where they broke off. I cut out what brood I could salvage, and rubber banded it into empty medium frames and took the last of the top bars out. I transfered them all to two mediums now.

Next time, if there is a next time, I think I'll do longer but shallower combs and possibly sloped sides also.

I still am interested in doing long hives to eliminate lifting. I love to be able to check the brood chamber without moving five heavy supers.

I have built and hope to soon populate, a double wide Dadant deep hive.


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## BWrangler

Hi Michael,

Sorry to hear of the unzipping. When I saw how my bees worked with the starter strips it was obvious that the junction of the bottom of the starter strip and comb was a very weak area. I took my hive tool and cut all the remaining starter strips out of my hive.

Eventually, I will remove all the starter strip based comb.

The vertical support piece I added to the comb adds quite a bit of strength to the comb. One of my purposes for my tbh was to observe natural comb building and the vertical pieces got in the way somewhat. So I removed them. The difference is amazing.

But I think the most of the advantages of the tbh could be had in a long hive. Frames could be substituted for topbars and an approach like "unfoundation" could be used. The bees would build variable sized worker cells and the expense of foundation would be eliminated.

I'm learning the more I try to help the bees the more problems are created. My thb is teaching me to stand back and get out of the way. :> )

Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

The TBH and another hive I started this spring are just blank starter strips so I can still watch what they do with the comb. I'm thinking some kind of support in the comb is really necessary to be able to work it without disasters.


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## BWrangler

Greetings Everyone,

I have finally built a web page with some photographs and comments. It's been along time coming, but I had to just bite the bullet and get it done. You can access it at:
http://bwrangler.litarium.com/ 

Regards
Dennis
Who likes working the bees better than working the computer


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## Steve-

Dennis,

You did a great job with your site. I agree with your observations but some would say your experiments need to be repeated before a conclusion is drawn. But like I said earlier I agree with your observations (with a little help from the bees we just might learn a thing or two!).

Happy Hiving,
steve


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## Michael Bush

I have enjoyed my experiments both with top bars and blank starters and with medium frames with blank starters. I knew bees built comb of worker and drone size but had no idea that there was that much variation.

I'm not sure how letting them make whatever size they want works out in respect to the mites etc. But I would like to continue the experiment. 

I would recommend you use the queen you want for a drone mother for that hive. My Italian bees on medium frames sure built a lot of drone comb. My Carnolian hive on top bars didn't build as much but did build more than you get with foundation.


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## airbalancer

Hello Denis
I noticed you linked to my top bar page but the link isn't working because some updating I was doing to my site, You can try this one though. 
Cheers http://home.comcast.net/~beekeeper23/TBH.htm


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## Michael Bush

I'm considering what I want to build to replace the Top Bar Hive.

What I'd like to end up with is a trough hive that doesn't require lifting. Natural comb the is arranged by size and orientation the ways the bees wish it. Combs strong enough to be manipulated without the combs breaking and falling off. Some interchanablility with my Lanstroth equpipment. Cheap and simple to build. 

I'm thinking of making it the width of a Lanstroth with the sides straight down for the depth of a medium and then angled in for the depth of a Dadant Deep. Since all my hives are mediums this would give me the advantage of being able to add a frame of brood or eggs or a queen cell from one of my other hives if I want. I could also pull frames out of the TBH and put them in my one Dadant deep hive if I want.

There are several possibilities then for a frame (not a real TBH if I do. I know.). I'm leaning toward Barry's idea of the "hoop" on the bottom. I could just using medium frames and let them hang some comb off of the bottom or take a Dadant deep frame and shorten the bottom bar to make it angled on the sides. Or I could use 3/8" dowels for angled sides and an 1/8" or 3/16" dowel for a bottom bar.

What do you think?

Of course when I started this idea I was trying to simplifiy it as much as possible and this is getting more complicated.

Has anyone thought about or tried taking hardware cloth and wax dipping it for foundation? Say 1/4" or 1/2"? Maybe they would follow the wires for the combs and it would make it strong enough and keep it straight?


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## beekeeper28

MB - I have not started a TBH to date but I'm very intereasted as you know if you recall other posts that I have made. I have been thinking along the same lines as your last post. So just for thought...

How would a frame with the hoop style be interchangable with a medium lang. Unless it was made like a two piece frame. I seen a frame just like this in a book from the libary used for the dorsata honey bee. This bee is the one that makes one big comb with brood at the top and honey at the bottom. So they developed a hinge style frame wher ethe honey could be removed and the brood left in place. If the top part could be the same size as a medium frame ...

Second is a bottom support required if a top and side support was provided?


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## Michael Bush

>So just for thought... How would a frame with the hoop style be interchangable with a medium lang.

Not interchanable but I could pull a medium frame of brood and eggs out or a medium frame with a queen cell out of one of my other hives and put it in the TBH. Also, I could pull a frame from the TBH and put it in my Dadant Deep hive. But not vica versa.

>Unless it was made like a two piece frame. I seen a frame just like this in a book from the libary used for the dorsata honey bee. This bee is the one that makes one big comb with brood at the top and honey at the bottom. So they developed a hinge style frame wher ethe honey could be removed and the brood left in place. If the top part could be the same size as a medium frame ...

I thought of this, but it's kind of hard to build. I've also thought of something similar with my Dadant Deep hive for comb honey.

>Second is a bottom support required if a top and side support was provided?

I'm not sure what is required. I built a TBH a long time ago and don't remember that many problems as long as I was careful, but it depends on how hot the day is etc. Also it had sloped sides and the bars came to an upside down peak so the combs were straighter. Sides might do it, but I'd feel better with support all around.


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## Michael Bush

I suppose my other thought, if I used regular medium frames in it, is that I could cut the comb off of the bottom and it would fit in a regular medium without any other trouble.


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## Steve-

MB,

I too had thought about using the hoop with a top bar. As I surfed for more info I ran across a picture where hoops had been used. I changed my mind about using them because the bees did not stop at the hoop support - they kept building comb and it was attached everywhere. I have looked for the photos of the hoop designed top bar but I am yet to find them.

I still think it might be done if you can insure beespace between the hive and the hoop.

Happy Hiving!
steve


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## Michael Bush

Yes they will go past the hoop, but the hoop will support it when you pull it loose from any attachments and will help hold it up on the 100 degree or more days.

If you could maintain a beespace it would work better. But wood bends as it will and isn't that precice.


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## txbeeguy

Just posted five new TBH photos on my Yahoo profile. These are pictures of fully drawn out comb from my TBH. 
Today was the first time I've check in on the hive in quite some time - I was very please with want I found. Only one comb had a little brace comb attached to the side of the hive (and it was a small, inch strip). 
What I did notice was the bees continue to draw out wax. Last time I checked was about a month ago and they had drawn out wax to nine top bars. Today's check showed comb drawn to 13 top bars and they were festooing on TB #14 and #15. 
There has been a lot of discussion about starter strips and the bees drawing out curved comb toward the ends of the bar. I will now offer my first observation about this. I don't really know if this is a "cause and effect" or not, but it's an interesting observation none the less. On my first several top bars I used starter strip foundation which stuck out below the bottom surface of the top bar about about a 1/4-inch (perhaps just a bit more). Now here's the main point I want to make, the length of the strip was almost as wide as the top bar (19 inches, in my case). As I was using very old (and brittle) cut comb foundation, my starter strips began to get shorter in length - I think you can see this in one or more of my photos. The bees have drawn out perfectly parallel comb the entire length of my top bars. That is, up until now. Now I've noticed on top bar #10 and #11 they have begun this 'curved end' thing that was discussed previously. This also corresponds to the bars that had (have) only a relatively short starter strip placed in the center of the bar. I can't help but think if the bees had a long starter strip in place, they would continue to draw out perfectly parallel comb like they did in the beginning.


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## BWrangler

Greetings Everyone,
I think that might just be the magic combination for starter strips. Embossed, no longer than 1/4" and almost all the way down the bar looks like the right combination.

I looked in the tbh today. Very interesting. The bees have stopped working horizontally again and are applying efforts vertically. Queen had reduced laying and bees are now filling drone comb and larger worker comb with honey. Maybe 4 to 5 topbars of brood total.

The bees are getting ready for winter. Reducing colony size. Terminating drone rearing. Storing honey in larger cells exterior to the small cell area.

It's obvious that they are quite content to operate in the deep to 2 deep volume this season, with small cell worker comb about 1/2 to 3/4 of a deep.

Looks like it's going to take some tbh management to trick the bees into constructing a larger broodnests if I want to fill the whole box. Maybe that's where inserting those empty topbars between brood combs comes in or possibly run a two queen colony with one queen on each end, honey in the middle.

The brood combs were lightly attached, but the honey combs were attached completely about 1/3 of the way down the sidewall. Not difficult to handle. Just took a little extra time. 

It was 90 degrees today and the tbh wasn't too hot to work. I think when the temps are mid to upper 90's its too hot and the wax is too fragile.

What a pleasure to work the tbh. I turned an empty super on its end and sat down by the side of my tbh. No hurry. No angry bees. Nothing heavy to lift. Just very pleasant bee work.

Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

I'm wondering what spring will bring. If they work their way to one end and the queen wants to start laying, I wonder if the cluster will work it's way back to the worker size comb? Or if they will rework the comb where they are? I look forward to hearing people's observations.


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## Steve-

MB,

I found the pictures using wood strips/hoops with a top bar. Mr. Barton's site follows - just scroll through the site - he has put some thought into his TBH design. http://www.ccdemo.info/GardenBees/WorkingTheHive/WorkingTheHive.html 

Happy Hiving,
steve


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## Michael Bush

Here's a site with a nice top bar. The bars are sloped, like I was planning to do, and they have extra grooves so the combs get attached better. See what you think:
http://www.ccdemo.info/GardenBees/CK5/CK5.html


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## BWrangler

Greetings,

Wyatt Mangum in this months ABJ talks about his tbh operation. It's an interesting read but I disagree with some of his conclusions. Check it out.

If a person has enough experience to build a tbh, figuring out feeders,etc. should not be a problem. That is, excepting those of us raised in the modern world where we lack any sense and have to buy everything :> )

Actually, Wyatt Mangum is right if a person has absolutely no experience with bees.

So I've expanded the Management section under Confessions at:
http://bwrangler.litarium.com/manage-top-bar-hives/ 

to include information on correcting comb, cutting comb, handling topbars, feeding sugar and pollen sub. Would someone actually read my web page and then build a tbh without checking out the resources?

Lots of the ideas came from you guys. I tried them and now use them. Thanks

Regards
Dennis


[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited July 26, 2003).]


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## Scot Mc Pherson

Just want to say hello to the folks on this thread. I am building 3 KTBH's this year for next spring.

I kept bees between the years of 1985 and 1990, but due to circumstances of being 15 and not in any sort of control of my circumstances, I was forced to stop keeping bees. Essentially the first year I was keeping bees remotely and too far away to effectively even have been beekeeping. The subsequent years I was forced to keep my hives in the woods away from the house because my mother was allergic to stinging and biting insects, and I couldn't convince her that having them around would even noticibly increase bees population.

Anyway, for the last 5 years my sincere interest in beekeeping has been rekindling, but for one reason or another I haven't been able to start a colony when the timing was right. Either having lost a job, gotten married, bought a new house, etc etc. As you can see I registered on these boards some 2 years ago, but I never got the chance to post (cause I didn't have anything to post about). Anyway this year I have a conviction to get my hives going.

I live in Sarasota FL, and have been doing my research pretty thoroughly. I have been completely sold on the concept of KTBHs and also on biological beekeeping. It only makes sense. When I started beekeeping, I am not sure there were really any resources to speak of for a 15 year old boy to find. (There was no internet even similar to what there is now).

I am building 3 KTBH to these internal dimensions based on material I read regarding prefered hive volume, and other considerations:

H: 10 Inches (25cm)
Top Width: 16 Inches (40cm)
(I think the shorter comb will promote straigter comb)
Bottom Width: 8 inches (20cm)
(This gives a slope of roughly 30 degrees (guessing, I had the slope figured for a height of 12 inches at 26.5 degrees)
Length: 48.25 inches (125 cm) roughly 35 TBs at 35mm.

When I have regressed my bees, I can plane off 3mm from the top bars and add 3 more top bars to the hive.

I plan on procurring regressed bees for 1 or 2 hives, and regressing large bees myself. The reason for this is I think having the already regressed bees is a healthy decision to make, with smaller chance of hive failure due to a regression in progress, plus having the regressed bees will aide in the regression of the larger bees. I also have firmly convinced myself that it is meritorious to add genetic diversity to the regressed pool of bees, and so I want to help and do my part.

Hopefully in some shorter than logner time, I can be a supplier of biologically balanced bees in my regional locale. In the state of florida, Varroa and other perhaps secondary diseases are a ravaging force here, forcing a GREAT majority of beekeepers out of business. The other force being the Small Hive Beatle which apparently is a real manace here.


Anyway, the reasons why I picked the KTBH design as opposed to others are simplicity of design (the TBH factor), and the Kenyan TBH because of the trapazoidal shape of the comb. After having read through this thread (which took me 2 days). A few peoples experiences have confirmed for me that the reduced amount of mechanical stress of the trapazoidal shape is what reduces attachment to the hive body, not a sense of floor. The bees naturally build the comb with a curvilinear perimeter if unconstrianed by space, such as a free hanging comb in a tree, and the reduced weigth at the bottom reduces the need for mechanical support of attachments. Plus I also think the hive looks more interesting when its something other than a "Box".


Anyway all comments and suggestion are welcome.

Thanx for having me.


------------------
-- 
Scot Mc Pherson
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me

[This message has been edited by Scot Mc Pherson (edited July 30, 2003).]


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## airbalancer

Hello all
I posted a new picture of the TBH today and also noticed a few things. The clean out door on the back of my hive is attached to a piece of ¼ plywood the size of the hive floor. I did this so I could inspect for mites and whatever. I have also been leaving the door open a half inch or so for ventilation and a dead out for the bees. When I pulled it out today I found some wax moth worms crawling around. Apparently from pulling the door in and out over the summer, some wax dropping get built up under it giving the worms some good cover. After pulling it out I left it for a little while and witnessed several more worms being promptly escorted from the hive in the clutches of some angry bees. Is there anything I could put on the hive floor to help this problem? 
The bees have drawn out about half of the 26 top bars in the hive, and it is interesting to see how the have followed the walls of the hive exactly. They are attaching to the walls but the hack saw blade I have been using seems to make quick work of severing them. I am thinking that a more aggressive blade like a wood cutting bow saw blade would be a little quicker but I havent tried that yet. The bees in the TBH are a pleasure to work with, very docile; I usually dont even need any smoke. It does take a little more time and finesse to inspect but I expect that will decrease with practice. I will be looking forward to next years honey harvest, as the package of bees didnt arrive till 2nd week of June.

Mike


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## Michael Bush

Great picture.


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## Scot Mc Pherson

That IS a beautiful picture.

As far as the moths go, eventually every hive has some level of moth larvae present in the hives, they drop and feed on the drippings on the floor. It normal and apart of how nature deals with the excess that is present int he bottom of every feral hive. What you have to worry about is the hive becoming weak enough for the moths to actually make a permanent home in the comb.

Doing your house cleaning is a good idea, and I would keep doing it. But seeing wax moths in the bottom of your hive is usually not a cause for alarm, unless the number of them is alarming. The bees don't feel the need to defend their trash.


[This message has been edited by Scot Mc Pherson (edited August 02, 2003).]


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## BWrangler

Nice Shot.

I had a small disaster in my tbh today. 

Temps in the mid 80's and I thought I would check out the tbh and take a few comb shots. 

Bees were doing great and I was into the hive about 6 topbars from the rear. All full of honey and draw out completely.

Cut 3 comb less that 2" on one end to make a comb correction. They all unzipped about 15 minutes later. What a mess!!!

I've come to the conclusion that comb corrections can't be made to anything but empty comb.

Some additional thoughts. I used a hive tool which is a very poor instrument to cut attachments in a tbh. They are very blunt and all the force is applied toward the bottom of the hive. This could have been a major factor in the comb failure.

Using a hacksaw blade, serated knife or modified radio antenna would be different. Attachments could be cut from the bottom up. The cutting force could be applied toward the top of the tbh reducing the stress on the very fragile new comb.

Comments?

Regards
Dennis



[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited August 04, 2003).]


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## BWrangler

Greetings Everyone,

Some very sad news but I hope others can learn from my mistake. I've lost my tbh :>((

I had routinely salvaged any damaged comb by placing it at the rear of the hive in a plastic container. I had removed the container a few weeks back. 

When the 3 combs failed, I placed them on the bottom board at the rear of the hive.

Returning the next morning with the plastic container, I found honey running out the hive entrance with half of the bees on the outside.

Massive destruction occurred inside the tbh. All but one comb had failed.

In my tbh design, most of the ventilation occures along the floor. When honey oozed from the 3 combs at the rear of the hive, ventilation was disrupted which started a chain reaction.

I don't think weak attachments caused by my blank starter strips helped much either.

The bees are now in a standard hive and I've got 3 buckets of honeycomb. Yikes!

As someone use to write, I'm sadder but wiser.

Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

So, Dennis, what do you think you will do differently? 

Mine went down like a row of dominoes also. It's very frustrating. It was doing so well and then it was like a disaster that spread on it's own.

I am considering doing the slope on the bars so that the bees will keep more to the middle. Perhaps some steps to reinforce the connection of the comb to the bar? Like some grooves? Perhaps some wax dipped hardware cloth to reinforce the comb? Perhaps a shallower comb would have more attachment at the top for the amount of weight it supports?


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## airbalancer

Hello all
I'm sorry to hear about your hives going south. Now you've got me worried. How about wider top bars, or something as easy as using rough saw wood to give the comb a "tooth" to hold on to. On my 1 3/8" top bars I cut a saw kerf down the middle then cut ¾" x 9" strips of foundation and waxed them in using the wax tube melter. Even though the bars are 17" long , the comb has been very straight so far. I probably didn't even need the starter strips. You could also put in a higher floor to limit the size of the comb. 

Mike


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## Russ

Maybe more ventilation would be a plus.


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

Thanks for your concern.

The entrance on my hive is a series of 3/4 holes drilled across the bottom front edge of the hive. I used the optimum of 15 square cm as a guide and then added a couple more.

I think the tbh was better able to control the hive environment as compared to my standard hives. But there is less ventilation near the top, with most of the transfer taking place along the bottom 1/4 of the hive. 

In the honey storage area, most of the combs are almost solidly attached to the sidewall. And with just a tight beespace between the combs bottom edge and the bottom board, ventilation space is tight.

When the cover is removed and the hive is opened up, the hive interior, the comb and the topbars are directly exposed to the sun and the heat. If the combs are placed on a holding frame outside the hive, additional heat and wind can add stress to the comb. 

Activity continues uninterrupted toward the front of the hive. But when combs are moved toward the rear of the hive after inspecting them, most activity on them stops. Heat builds up.

Newly built storage comb constructed during a heavy flow is mostly honey and very weak. When attached to the sidewall, it is strong enough that the hive can be moved without damaging it. But when it's hot and cut free from the sidewall, it takes very little additional stress to cause it to fail.

I am sure some of the additional stress came from my hive tool as I pushed down to bulldoze the attachments loose.

All these were factors, but the final straw occurred when when I placed those broken combs at the rear of the hive. Some honey flowed along the bottom board and caused the ventilating bees to retreat toward the front of the hive. It doesn't take much honey, either.

With temps in the mid 90's and the additional stresses, the comb got hot, fast, then failed starting at the back of the hive and progressing foward. Each domino released more honey forcing the bees out of the hive.

Conclusions:

Full, newly drawn storage comb is very, very fragile. It should never be handled when it's hot. Maybe it shouldn't be handled at all during the first year.

Never put anything in the hive that will disrupt the ventilation.

The hive should not be worked when the temps are too hot. When the hive is first opened, the bees have everything under control, but things can rapidly change, expecially with the added time it takes to work a tbh. Not much change will be seen by the beekeeper until the comb fails.

Don't use a hive tool to remove attachments. Use Steve's cutting tool instead.

I am considering a different entrance pattern. Rather than a long series of small holes across the bottom front, it might be better to have a series of holes tiered in one corner and a couple of small holes towards the top. At least the bees could get out if a comb collapsed.

Regards
Dennis


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## Scot Mc Pherson

For the entrance, the 15cm^2 is a figure that relates to a single entrance hole. When you increase the number of holes, but maintain the 15cm^2 area you are increasing the drag and friction of the total aperture because there is greater surface area ratio of 'wood : air'.

The ratio wood : air while using a single 15cm^2 circular aperture is 13.73 cm of wood or 15cm^2 : 13.73cm of wood surface. When using 15 holes equaling 1cm^2 each ( totalling 15cm^2, then the ratio of wood : air is 15cm^2 : 53.2cm of wood.

To give you a direct analogy, take plumbing. If you have a 1 inch feed to a faucet, a huge amount of water can pass through through the plumbing. Feed that same faucet with 15 equal pipes totalling 1 inch of cross section area, and te flow is GREATLY diminished. You are increasing the surface area that the water must come in contact with, therefore increasing the drag.

In a beehive entrance, the same princples apply. A bee although not a particle of water is of a certain given rough size. The size of the bee when it walks through the entrance of the hive takes up just a bit of space of that entrance, reducing the entrance by the size of one bee. Going back to the water plumbing analogy with the single larger aperture, more bees can fit through the entrance than 15 holes that equal 15cm^2.

Oh how does this contribute to hive meltdown? Well because each be takes up some space in the entrance, there is less space available for air to flow through the entrance. Air is also hindered by the increased surface area ratio described about, but it is most greatly compounded by the fact that there are bees in the way of the air flow. In the single aperture, there is less demand for space within the aperture, and air is more freely flowing allowing greater ventilation.

Please understand that I am not at all criticizing anyone's designs for a hive, I consider myself extremely lucky to have all your first year experiences to draw from. What I am doing is collecting your experiences and observations and compiling them together in my mind, and plan to commit to paper/webspace your collective experiences, flavored with the benefit of a my very limited engineering knowledge and design what I consider (based on all your experiences) to be a perfect top bar hive "design". In the end it will remain to be seen how successful my own top bar hive will be next year, but I do plan to commit my ideas and your experiences, and then make amendments as your experiences my own experiences next year prove or disprove my theories of good hive design.

It is my sincere desire that that we all will benefit from this, a great deal of this will be my own conjecture based on what you all have shared here. But I think what I have in mind will prove beneficial dispite my lack of personal and direct experience with top bar hives. If it interests you-the-group, I would like to make this an evolving document designed to continually improve hive design and management.

Can I have some input on the idea?


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## Russ

Would a screened bottom board area and more upper ventilation have helped??????? Just asking, maybe!!!!


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## BWrangler

Hi Scot, Russ and Everyone,

I quite sure the hive would be doing fine today if I hadn't touched it. I went out to work my standard hives and take just one picture from the rear of the tbh. When I opened them up everything was fine. No bees on the outside. Just a few bees ventilating.

I cut a couple of attachments and made several small adjustments on a couple of combs at the rear. The wax was stiff and cool. I should have stopped right there, but didn't.

I decided to do a complete shoot of every frame in the hive. I moved the adjusted combs toward the back and began removing other combs and shooting them, a very slow process. I was probably at it about an hour. 

Heat stress built up as a result of my intrusion and the adjusted combs failed. I set the hive together. Honey flowed from the combs at the back and bee ventilation failed.

Operator error all the way!

Ventilation was an unknown when I designed the hive. I figured it would be pretty easy to drill a few more holes if needed. But the bees seemed to be able to control the hive atmosphere better than in my standard hives. Fewer bees fanning and for shorter periods on hot days. Looser clusters, more bee movement on cooler days. I liked it and left it.

Barry and I talked about what kind of entrance the tbh hives should have. Research indicated that a 1 1/4" hole was optimum. Barry put that on the end of his hive. How's it working for you Barry?

I was concerned about field mice problems and winter winds. And opted for a series of smaller, plugable holes with about twice the optimum area.

It's not uncommon when working hives here, to set any frames removed from standard equipment in the shade or they will quickly get soft and sag. Frames inside the boxes can take the stress. But not so with topbar comb.

Regards
Dennis
Unlearning a bazillion hive years worth of standard beekeeping habits


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## Michael Bush

Maybe when we all get the hang of this we can put together some basic recommendations on working a top bar hive.







Like never work them if the temperature is over 75 degrees F? Never work them unless you have a good reason? Never work them at all? Of course this brings to mind the issue of checking for a queen when the weather is hot and the population is dwindling etc.

I can't seem to find any good directions in this regard. Satterfields page is nice but there aren't a lot of directions on how to prevent the problems we have all been having.

There are so many things I liked about TBHs, I think I will try it again next spring. I'm still planning what I will try then. I'm leaning a bit toward a trough hive of Lanstroth dimensions, medium depth so there isn't as much weight below for the attachment above, 48 3/4" long (3 Langstroth boxes, 33 bars) with a screened bottom board. Also, I'm thinking of bars that slope to the middle for better comb alignment and maybe some cuts for better attachment. The bars I had that unzipped, my starter strips stayed on the bars. They were waxed in with a wax tube fastener.

With medium depth and Langstroth dimensions I could interchange with my other hives and if they all unzip again, I can just put them in medium frames without a lot of waste.


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## Scot Mc Pherson

If you look at his site again you will notice that all his hives are in the shade, or have shade during a good portion of the day. That one tree gum looking TBH observatino hive melted down cause it was in direct sun. So I don't think he had as much heat to worry about.

I do think design has a lot to do with in. Lik ein teh case of BWrangler, if the hive were a KTBH deisgned so the comb met the natural dimentsion and didn't feel the need to support the comb from the bottom and side, that ventilation would have been highly increased. Also the entrance design contributions. I will experiemnt this coming year with some different designs concepts I have in mind.

[This message has been edited by Scot Mc Pherson (edited August 07, 2003).]


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## Michael Bush

Mine was in the shade. All the comb in it collapsed. I think BWrangler has sloped sides on his. Mine was regular Langstroth frame dimensions but as long as two boxes side by side (32 1/2" or 22 bars) and had a screened bottom board. None of this was enough to help. I certainly will plan on putting the next one in the shade also. I also will plan on NOT working it in the heat.


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## beekeeper28

Has any one talked to Satterfield and asked if he has ever experienced this?


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

The thing that sticks in my mind was the total lack of warning that the comb was in trouble. The comb toward the front of the hive was stiff and the attachments were not easy to cut. It was not hot.

But after working the comb, it was moved to the rear of the hive and not worked again. That's where it accumulated the heat and suffered from the stress of being worked.

When it failed, I was quite surprised. The attachments at the front of the hive were still stiff. The failed comb was quite weak and almost pulpy. It was very hard to recover intact.

I think a change in management would solve the problem. In the midwest and western states, the honey flow always occures when the temps are hot. Sometimes more hot air from the outside could be as bad as too little bee ventilation.

Any incursion should be very quick. If more space is needed then some frames at the rear of the hive are quickly harvested.

But maybe a means of venting the accumulated heat is necessary. I will be looking forward to Scot's experiments and will be try a few of my own.

Regards
Dennis
Thinking...holes it tbhs, it easy to drill em or fill em.


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## Labeille

I'm familiar with top bar hives but when winter comes and the cluster is in the middle of the hive it would have to work one way or the other. After a while they would run out of room and starve or would they move their way back to the other side in a cluster? Frogive me if this is a stupid question im just curious.


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## Labeille

Sorry i meant to say im not familiar


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## Steve-

Hello All:

I hated to read of the mishaps some have experienced of late. I have been there. After my hive had a melt down two years ago I thought about what I had done and came to the decision I had just made my hive too deep. After several days of 100 pluse temps it is hard for comb to take the stress of the honey contained inside the comb. I do agree the newer the comb the more quickly failure will take place in high temps. In year two I made some depth adjustments and did not experience comb failure in 2002. But I will venture to say my hive was still too deep. Even after I made adjustments the comb was still 17" deep. I did worry but was lucky I did not lose any comb. When I had comb failure I believe my bees were saved by the fact I had vent holes cut in the top bars similar to Mr. Satterfields. I have come to believe that a more shallow hive, in addition to vent holes, is the answer or a hive that does not allow as much volume per comb. I am still very interested in the sloped sides of many of your designs as mine have been straight sided to this point in time and may now remain so. I moved my oldest colony to a smaller hive this year containing only 15 top bars at a depth of aproximately 12". I have been pleased with the production of this hive since the move. I have observed that the queen only lays to bar 9 1/2 - the 1/2 comes from the front side of top bar number 10. The top bars that make up the brood area are a solid mix of brood, pollen, and honey. I harvested four of the remaining bars and collected 36 pluse pounds of honey six weeks ago. I just checked and those bars are ready to be harvested again. So I have been pleased with my move to the smaller hive. I know some of you have real winters as compared to me so my smaller hive would not do you well. Also I can harvest honey that you need to leave on your hive for winter feeding. As some of you may remeber reading awhile back this is my third year with tbh's. My first hive was too deep and I believe too long. It can handle 35 top bars 1 3/8" wide and has a follower space of 3/4". I say too long because in three years my bees have only drawn comb on 22 of the 35 bars. I did reduce the floor depth in the hive but did not change its length. I have hoped that leaving the brood area intact would allow the queen to build a field force large enough to fill out all 35 bars but that is yet to happen.

As I have read about some of you correcting comb placement, I did that also when I first started but stopped in year two. I have not experienced the curved comb some have described but I had comb from two bars grow together and be extra wide. Now if I encounter comb I am not pleased with I cut it out. I did not want to do this at first but now I go ahead and let the bees deal with my comb removal. And I always cut upward first. Never cut across the seam and then cut up to meet your first cut. I always cut up at an angle and then across to meet the first cut that will correct what I am trying to remove and if for some reason I do not get it right with the first cut I will remove some more. I use two cutting tools 1. a short stiff putty knife and 2. a J shaped tool I designed. The stronger the metal used for your cutting tool the more control you have over the direction of the cut. I found that a hacksaw blade was of good thickness in making the cut but its length gave it play during the cut that made it hard to guide at times.

I like to look in my hive too much to not open it (even when it is hot). I enjoy this process of learning about the bees and what we can do with the hive. I enjoy this try and retry process - it keeps us thinking and as it has been said before - when "I think, therefore I am". 

So in summary 1. Smaller hives - if you can; 2. Always cut up when making comb corrections; 3. Let the bees fix what you remove; 4. Have a thin but stiff cutting tool.

Happy Hiving,
Steve


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## Scot Mc Pherson

>>> Even after I made adjustments the comb was still 17" deep.

After adjustment? And Squared not sloped? My goodness, I am very suprised.

>>>>I know some of you have real winters as compared to me so my smaller hive would not do you well. 

Actually the farther north / worse your winters are, smaller hives are more likely to survive and build up faster in the spring.

Excellent that you had such good luck.


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## Michael Bush

Mine was only a 9 5/8" deep box and I had a total failure. I'm going to try 6 5/8" I think. My previous top bar hive I put in holes in the top bars, mostly so I could super. I wonder if that's part of why it didn't have as many problems. It was 9 5/8" deep with sloped sides and holes (notches?) in the bars.


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## airbalancer

Hello all,
My copy of Bee Culture came in the mail today. So I kicked off my boots, poured some lemonade, and sat back to do some reading. I was reading a great article on top bar hives by Dr Sanford, when sure enough he mentioned my website. I have to tell you, I got a kick out of that. So if your out there doc, it was a great article and you've made my day.
Cheers
Mike


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## BWrangler

Hi Mike and Barry,

I saw the article in Bee Culture. You both have some great ideas and some great tbhs.

Congrats
Dennis


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## Steve-

Scot,

The other night I referred to an adjustment in my hive. I created a screened bottom and inserted it to reduce the depth in my hive. I also should have said my hives are straight sided instead of squared.

My comment about the size of my hive and real winters up north relate to the amount of honey and pollen stores. I do not believe my small tbh would hold enough stores for a cluster to make it through a good long winter. I know many folks already feed in late winter but feeding in winter would be difficult with my tbh.

Happy Hiving
Steve


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## BWrangler

Hi Everyone,

I have added some additional sections to my tbh webpage. They include:

Hot Weather Management
Honey Production
Honey Harvest

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/manage-top-bar-hives/

Regards
Dennis


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## Steve-

BWrangler

Good Job on the additions you made to your tbh page. I agree that tbh beekeepers are very innovative. It has been enlightening to see and read what fellow TBHers are doing. 

Just a thought - those of us on this tbh discussion list could each take a chapter and get that TBH BeeKeepers Manual/Book knocked out. It could be an online resource for new folks picking up the TBH methodology. That might be a good project for us this winter. It is just a thought.

Happy Hiving
Steve


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## Barry

> Barry and I talked about what kind of entrance the tbh hives should have. Research indicated that a 1 1/4" hole was optimum. Barry put that on the end of his hive. How's it working for you Barry? <

Hi Dennis -

My TBH is doing real well. I realized from our phone conversation that our
TBH's are in very different settings. Yours sits out in the full sun and
mine is in the shade all the time. I have not noticed any negative effect to
having just the one 1-1/4" entrance hole on the hive. When the activity
really picks up and a large field force comes back all at the same time,
there is some congestion but the bees simply land on the side of the hive
and work it all out in time. I don't feel my bees took any longer to build
comb than yours did.

I tried to really get into the hive Monday and look at every comb, but I was
not successful. There are two frames I can get out (approx. frame 7 and 8)
with no problem as they drew it very straight. These were the first couple of
combs built when I started the hive. All the combs in front of and in back
of, have curved ends and they're attached to the adjacent top bar. It gets
worse the further away you get from these two combs. I decided not to try
and straighten things out just so I could look at the combs. I am going to
leave them to their own creation and see how they winter. Eventually I will
use the bees to start some other TBH designs and then I will pull the combs
apart and do some extensive measuring and studying of the combs.

It's interesting that they still refuse to draw the combs down to the bottom
of the hooped frames I made. My "frames" are about 20" deep and 20" wide.
I'm not sure why they stopped the combs 2/3rds down. If you figure up the
total comb area in my hive, it is very close to the same area Dennis finds
in his, yet his bees drew the comb to the bottom (14" deep?). I know for
sure that this hive requeened themselves as there quite a few opened queen
cells on some of the combs. I have a gut feeling that the one swarm I got
this year came from the TBH also. I'll try placing a standard super on top
of this hive next year and see if they will store honey in it. What will the
bees do next year, now that they have the combs built? Will they want to
store more honey? Will they have a greater tendency to swarm? Things to
watch for.

The hinged bottom (3" x the length of the hive) I
put on my TBH has 1/8" hardware cloth (screen) attached to the inside of the
hive so when the bottom is open it is still bee proof. I tried to open it
this week and found that the screen was totally covered with propolis and
glued to the hinged bottom board. I guess they didn't even like the small
amount of air coming in through the 1/16" gap around the bottom board. The
hive is totally sealed up except for the 1-1/4" entrance.

Regards,
Barry

[This message has been edited by Barry (edited August 17, 2003).]


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## airbalancer

Hello all,
It was pretty hot here last night. I took this picture of them bearding the hive entrance. It looked like they were dripping out of the extra hole I put in.
Mike


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## BWrangler

Hi Mike and Everyone, 

Nice shot. That hive even looks good in the dark and especially good with bees on the front. That's about how my standard hives have looked at night since July. Is it abnormal for your area.

On another note, I pulled supers from my standard hives and extracted with my 2 frame hand extractor. What a chore compared to harvesting comb out of my tbh and letting it drain through a nylon screen and into a bucket.

I have been around extractors so long, I didn't think there could be an easier way.
But comparing the two methods side by side draining beats extracting on a small scale for me. I don't think I could suggest a small extractor for any hobbyist like myself. 

Regards
Dennis
Thinking the tbh list was going to pass the permacomb guys. But maybe not. :< )


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## txbeeguy

...Just back to the list after a three week trip to Siberia; good to bee back in the land of hot showers and iced tea!
-- 
Thought about checking in on my TBH but after reading the horror stories of comb breaking, I've decided to wait until the temps cool a bit (high today around 105 here in my Dallas backyard). Last time I checked it (about a month ago), the bees had drawn out what can only be described as a large triangle-shaped honeycomb (due to the 22-deg slope of my hive's side walls). The comb is rather deep but seems to support the weight okay - I guess this is because the further away from the connection point at the top bar, the comb gets narrower and narrower (so the suspended weight becomes less and less). I'm planning on measuring the depth of the comb (from the top bar) the next time I go into the hive; but I'd bet to the bottom point of the triangle, it's at least 20 inches. A few earlier pictures of the comb can be seen at: http://profiles.yahoo.com/txbeeguy


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## airbalancer

Hello txbeeguy,
Those are some great pics of your TBH, and some large comb. I would be interested to know the weight of a full honey comb that size, if you were so inclined. Some quick math shows your combs are 50% larger than a standard hive showing just how strong beeswax is.
Mike


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## BWrangler

Hi TxBeeGuy,

Looked in your briefcase. Nice! I know you're having fun.

Regards
Dennis


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## txbeeguy

Yep...we're havin' fun now! The TBH has been an interesting little "experiment". This was obviously my first year with it. From everything I can see and experience, I think sloped walls on a TBH is absolutely essential. Before I built mine, I had read on some English website, that particuliar author didn't seem to think there was any difference with the bees attaching burr/brace comb between a straight (i.e., verticle) walled TBH and a sloped one. From my own personal experience, I can now say my bees haven't attached ANY comb to the sloped side walls and as can be seen, the combs are fairly large. Others with verticle walled TBH have reported varying problems along this line. Also, the technique I've used for my 'starter strips' has worked out nicely (I covered this in an earlier posting). Here in another month or two, I'll place my "bottom board" back into the TBH in preparation for winter (they've had a screened bottom, all summer long) - this should be about a one minute procedure; again, this is visible in some of my photos. I'm thinking I might make another TBH this winter and so far, I don't think I'll change a single thing. 
The bees have available to them a total of 30 top bars from which to draw out comb. My bees so far in this first year, have drawn out only about 15 (however, they are rather large combs). Next Spring, I will probably reposition the top bars in the back of the hive more towards the front to encourage them to draw out these bars. For this Winter, I will put the 'follower board' behind comb #15 to effectively make their hive space smaller. Probably the year after that, I will begin to put regular medium depth honey supers on, using the black plastic sheet techinque (also written about earlier). 
Yes, I will try to weigh a fully drawn honey comb and calculate the area of the comb so this will have meaning to you.


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## BWrangler

Hi TxBeeGuy and Everyone,

>I will probably reposition the top bars in the back of the hive more towards the front to encourage them to draw out these bars.

I tried inserting empty top bars within the broodnest to get them to draw additional comb. It worked to a degree but the bees tended to draw some burr comb in the space between the combs until a significant amount of comb was built on the empty top bar.

I think moving the broodnest to the rear of the hive and giving the bees space will work better. That's also my plan for next year.

Regards
Dennis


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## txbeeguy

Attn: BWrangler, Michael Bush (& others) 

After waiting for the temperatures to moderate a little here in north Texas, I finally opened my TBH today - first time in about six weeks. What I found: comb failure! Now, I'd like to say to BWrangler, you can give yourself a break; it apparently had nothing to do with you working your hive and the bees not being able to maintain a cool enough temperature inside the hive. My combs were looking really good, a week prior to my summer vacation trip (six weeks ago) and I thought eveything would take care of itself while I was gone. So, I wasn't working my TBH or messing around with the comb and they still suffered comb failure. I had failed comb from about five different top bars. The comb separated about five inches from the top bar and fell to the bottom of the hive. I have a screen bottom, so the bees got busy and cleaned up the spilled honey; the queen continued to lay eggs in large sections of the comb that was still oriented (more-or-less) vertically. Needless to say, I had quite a mess to clean up today - cross comb, comb attached to the sides of the hive, etc. etc. But I got the hive put back into shape and guess I will now have to feed them, if they're going to be able to draw out enough comb and store enough honey to survive the coming winter. I did put in my bottom board today; it fits above the permanently screened hive bottom. I also moved the follower board down to where the bees have access to only fifteen of the top bars (rather than the full thirty) - that was about as much comb as they pulled out this year anyway. 

I took a couple of photos of the failure but due to having a new digital camera, they weren't in focus (operator malfunction) so I probably won't post them. Just thought I'd share my experience since everyone is being so brutally honest with their TBH experiences. 

I'm inclined to believe the depth of the comb (i.e., suspended weight) obviously contributed to the comb failure, along with the hot temperatures (my hive sits in full sun also). I have a fully screened bottom and fairly large front hive opening (I'd say, on the order of four or five square inches). So my point here, is that the bees had plenty of opportunity for air circulation. I'm hoping that next year, after the comb has a chance to become more "old" - that the comb will become stiffer and stronger.


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## Michael Bush

I also had a screened bottom board and I wonder if it doesn't contribute to the failure. In hot weather, the bees are trying to keep a cooler than outside temperature and having too much ventilation could interfere with that.


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## BWrangler

Hi Texbeeguy, Michael and Everyone,

I'm sorry to hear of your loss. :<(

There's definately some aspect of management that I don't understand. I've wondered about the heigth also but have seen pictures of comb at least 5' high hanging between studs without anymore attachment that I've seen in my tbh. And the walls were essentially clapboard and the comb should have gotten very hot in that narrow space.

And I've been quite curious about the bees desire for such a small amount of ventilation in my top bar hive. They essentially just left just a bee space at the bottom of every comb and then some communication holes around the edges of the honey storage combs. Yet they expended less effort ventilating the hive that the bees in my Langs next to them.

For a guy like me who has used screened bottom boards, ventilated covers and drills each super with a vent hole, I was amazed at the bees apparent efficiency at ventilation in my top bar hive. They used fewer bees and fanned less often than the others.

The comb I was working with in my tbh just before it failed was stiff. I was trimming some edges and thought all was well. Then comb I had previosly worked failed. I tried to pick it up to prevent any bee lose and couldn't it was just like a pulp! I couldn't even effectively scoop it up with the hive tool. So I just bulldozed it to the back of the hive.

On another note, I rendered all the wax from my top bar hive and got a little over half a bread loaf pan. Not very much wax in that new comb!

Sad Regards
Dennis
Knowing we'll get this kink in our top bar hive management worked out


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## txbeeguy

Interesting idea, Michael. I wonder....
---
I didn't try rendering my wax {yet}. Perhaps I'll do that this week - it's mainly just been a sad sight to see all that capped brood wasted but it was the only way to 'clean up' the crossed and collapsed comb. Plus, I'll still have to check back in a few days to make sure I didn't kill the queen during my "clean up".
Oh well...better luck next year! 

Maybe I'll move the hive to an area with more shade (may not help a whole bunch but certainly couldn't hurt).


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## Michael Bush

The nigerian beekeeper idrisbee says they keep theirs in the shade.

I think we need to remember that the inside temperature of a hive in the heat of summer is COOLER than the outside temperature. So maybe a SBB is counterproductive.

Also, I found a "foundationless frame" designt that confirms my thoughts on how I will make my next top bars.
http://www.charlesmartinsimon.com/frameinstructions.htm http://www.charlesmartinsimon.com/pictures.htm 

I think I may mill my frames to have a slope top and bottom to use with or without starter strips.

I would like to move away from foundation altogether if I can.


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## beekeeper28

I like this idea MB. After all the trials w/ just TBs and the failures everyone has had this might be the way to go. I think that a frame is a good idea. The main thing that I'm intereasted in is a horizontal hive that I can produce myself and just harvest the comb and the honey. What a about a horizontal hive that would take medium foundationless frames that would also fit into a standard medium box?


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## Michael Bush

I have a horizontal medium depth hive right now except I have it full of PermaComb. It is three boxes wide (16 1/4" times 3 = 48 3/4") and medium depth and it has a screened bottom board the length of the hive. It is prospering and is easy to work. I figured I would add supers on the back third of it if I needed them. I usaed a 1 x 8 (which is 7 1/4" deep) and cut the rabbet 3/4" (which leaves 3/8" beespace on top with PermaComb on spacers), cut a notch for the front door and put screen on the bottom and I have a 1/2 below the regular frames for the bottom space and 3/4" on the bottom of the PermaComb. No waste of lumber.

I also have a standared vertical hive of all starter strips. It is also prospering, although it ended up queenless with a laying worker for a while. They did build a lot of drone comb. I was planning to convert it to horizontal also.

I really like horizontal hives for ease of work and minimum disruption of the hive.


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

I've got a horizontal hive using the unfoundation approach in the works also. It will be two boxes long.

Should we start another thread for this one or tag it on to an older thread. I know Michael had a thread that would work?

Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

It doesn't matter to me where we discuss it.







Here's a link to the Jakson Horizontal hive. Note the frames are a solid top bar (no gaps) and a dowel for the sides and bottom. Easy to make.
http://www.rupertshoney.co.za/rh/


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## Michael Bush

I am already starting a Dadant Deep horizontal hive, with the thought that if you're only one story high, you may as well be a tall story. Since I'm not going to lift the hive I don't care if the frames are heavy. I'm thiking if I angled the top and bottom bars and put a 1/2 square piece of wood horizontally in the center at a 45 degree angle (like a diamond shape) then maybe I could get the same effect as the "foundationless" frames I mentioned above. It would have some support in the middle. It could be used for cut comb (a row above and one below) or even extracted if you were gentle. It wouldn't require foundation and it wouldn't sag much with weight in it. One could even put two horizontals in or even a couple of verticals if you wanted to. What do you think would work the best to support the comb and not interfere with natural comb building?

The vertical version would provide support from the begining. The horizontal won't provide any support until the comb reaches the half way point.


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## txbeeguy

Since this was (is) my first year with a TBH, I have found it a little interesting [challenging] to figure out how to apply TM this Fall. I typically use TM patties to accomplish this and since there's "no boxes" to set it between, it presents a problem unique to TBHs. My top bars also don't have notches cut in them so applying it as a sugar/powder mixture isn't a solution either. 
I have no idea if this will work but I put some on the 'landing board' (just slightly inside the hive) and some more (patty version) on the bottom board. Since my TBH is a fairly "deep" V-shaped construction, it remains to be seen if they will consume the patty on the bottom board. Guess I'll report my findings later...
How are you guys doing this?


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## Michael Bush

The last time I fed TM was 28 years ago and I used it in syrup.


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## txbeeguy

Why do you not preventatively treat with TM? Have you never had a problem with foulbrood (either EFB or AFB)? 
--
(Putting TM in syrup is not a recommended method for distributing TM)


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## Michael Bush

>Why do you not preventatively treat with TM? Have you never had a problem with foulbrood (either EFB or AFB)? 

I have never had any kind of foulbrood. I think using TM just masks any problems you have. It's an opportunistic disease that attacks weak colonies. Also if you treat for prevention then you contribute to the whole TM resistant AFB problem. Perhaps if I ever had AFB I would have a different attitude.

>(Putting TM in syrup is not a recommended method for distributing TM)

No it is not because the TM breaks down quicker in the syrup. But 28 years ago when I did it was the recommended method.


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## txbeeguy

My inclination is to say, if you've never had a problem with foulbrood in 28 years of beekeeping, as prevalent as foulbrood spores are, then you've either been very, very lucky or truly, you're on to something. I don't know which. 
I don't agree that it's an opportunistic disease, attacking only a weak colony. Just after writing the previous sentence, I went back and reviewed my copy of "The Hive and the Honey Bee" - specifically, chapter 25, the section on diseases and pests of honeybees. Nothing I read in this book alludes to it being an opportunistic disease. It appears to me, for a hive to be infected, only active spores and larvae of the correct age have to come in contact with one another. And "peventative treatment" is one of the few measures available to counter this particuliar threat.
I do note, they mention varying degrees of natural resistance existing in some honeybee genetics - and being a "big fan" (i.e., believer) of letting/encouraging honeybees to develop their own native resistance to such things (including Varroa mites, as an example) - I'm inclined to consider your "non-treatment" idea. The main problem I have, is that if your hives become infected, your options become so drastically limited - in the case of AFB, having to destroy equipment. Unlike mite treatment, where you can just "begin again" and perhaps use Apistan or Checkmite next time around, foulbrood is a little different animal (so to speak). 
Anyway, this is probably becoming 'off-topic' and better belongs to the "disease and pest" forum. Back to my main question (assuming that you ARE treating with TM), are there any recommendations as to HOW to treat a TBH with TM?


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## Michael Bush

Part of the reason I mentioned the syrup is that was the recommended method of administration at one time. The only real problem with it was that in syrup it breaks down quicker. Obviously it did work, it's just that other methods were determined to be more foolproof. One problem was if the bees didn't take the syrup right away it lost it's effectivness. The point is that feeding it in syrup does work and that might be an option for you. I suppose you could pull out a couple of the empty bars at the end, space them all apart and dust them.

As to the opportunistic quality of AFB, the spores are in all bee combs all the time. Why does one hive get an outbreak and most don't?


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## txbeeguy

> Why does one hive get an outbreak and most don't? 

I guess that was the "luck of the draw" that I was referring to earlier. According to THHB, there is only a three day window for larvae to be susceptible to the bacteria. And since the live bacteria is encapsulated in a very tough spore  it appears to me that the "right conditions" for an infection are quite happenstance. I'm not sure the entomologist (or microbiologist) have a very good handle/understanding of what causes the hard outer shell of the spore to breakdown, releasing the live bacteria. And certainly timing plays a role; when (and IF) the spore breaks down, the release of the bacteria must be in physically close proximity to the correctly aged larvae (i.e., to be ingested by the larvae).


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## txbeeguy

Forgot to mention, your syrup idea is (sounds) reasonable to me. The Terra-patties or repeated TM/sugar dusting procedure, currently recommended, are only to extend the exposure time of the bees to the TM. If they take down the syrup (at the correct LD strength), I see no reason why that shouldn't work. And my TBH is set up to handle an entrance feeder - so that might be a way to go. (Guess I'll wait now to see how they treat the TM patty on the bottom board).


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## BWrangler

Hi Everyone,

TM has a very short life if wet and in the sun. Feeding the stuff inside the hive where it's dark would be better.

When working as a commercial beekeeper, TM was routinely feed in extender patties. With my own hobby bees, I used to feed the stuff routinely, but stopped a decade ago. Except for one recent occurance, I've had no problems, but I am surrounded by beekeepers.

I would only use TM now if the disease were obvious. I would remove the infected comb, a very easy task in a tbh. And I would dust them with a varroa blaster.

A varroa blaster can be used to disperse the TM as well as to dust the hive for mites with powdered sugar. They are easy to make. Just take a large, plastic gatoraide or similar bottle. I like the large salsa bottles because of the handle. Drill some very small holes in the plastic cap. Fill the bottle 1/3 full with the TM/powdered sugar. Place a piece of panty hose nylon material over the open end and screw the lid down locking the material in place.

When the blaster is squeezed, a very fine smoke like dust comes out. Rap the bottom of the blaster on something solid to restore it's performance if the cloth becomes clogged with lumpy sugar.

I think several blasts from the back of the hive and under the comb would get enough TM powder up toward the front without moving each comb.

Regards
Dennis



[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited October 06, 2003).]


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## txbeeguy

BWrangler, that also sounds like a workable solution. Yes, I understand the syrup problem but "fogging them" also appears to have a couple of drawbacks. First, like you said, you'd want to do it from the back of the hive to keep from getting TM directly on open/young brood cells which are more toward the front of the hive. But then, that would have you directly dusting "potential" eatable honeycomb (at the back of the hive). 

Perhaps I can live with the latter problem if my idea of putting a regular medium-depth honey super above the top bars works. The idea involves removing one top bar and covering the remaining top bars with a black plastic sheet that has a slit cut in it to allow the bees access to the honey super. The assumption is that the bees will not build filler comb due to the flexing/unstable nature of the plastic sheet but would go up to store honey in the super. In that way, it wouldn't matter if the comb at the back of the TBH was fogged with TM or not.


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

I've got a webpage up on my powdered sugar varroa blaster if you're interested:
http://bwrangler.litarium.com/varroa-blaster/
Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

I've been thinking that maybe bwrangler is on to something on the ventilation aspects. In a TBH the bees have more freedom to build things the way they want them and therefore to set up the ventilation the way they want. And in the end they seem to ventilate less. When we put an open screened bottom board on them, we change the ventilation substantially. I'm begining to think part of the comb failure is due to the screened bottom board. Also, we do change the ventilation while working the hive, which on a hot day could cause problems.

I'm thinking a closed SBB would be more natural.

How much do you think our "beespace" around the frames in a Lanstroth hive interferes with the bees ventilation plans?

I'm starting to plan my next TBH experiment for the spring.


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## BWrangler

Hello Everyone,

I chatted with Barry B. about his top bar hive the other day. He didn't have any comb failures and, if I understand correctly, stuck strickly to the optimum requirements for a hive cavity. I think it has only one entrance hole about 1 1/4" diameter.

Any details, Barry?

I must admit that for several days after opening my failed top bar hive I sure wished that it had a screened bottom instead of the solid one. But the difference in strength between the unworked comb and those that I had mangled kept coming back to me. I am sure that the hive would be intact today if I hadn't meddled with it.

But I've got alot to learn and am thinking about next years tbh and long hive with natural comb as well. It is just too fascinating to give up on now!

Anyone have a new top bar hive project in the works. Would enjoy hearing of the details.

Regards
Dennis


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## txbeeguy

> would be intact today if I hadn't meddled with it

Not from my experience! I was gone to Russia for a month so my TBH had nobody "meddling" with it and it's comb still failed. My TBH also had a screened bottom - so there should have been plenty of air circulation.

I'm thinking the only change I'm going to make on it next year is to place it in the shade. It's present location exposes it to sun virtually all day. We'll see how that works out. Plus, the combs that did manage to survive should be harder and much stronger next year.


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## dragonfly

This is getting off the current subject, but I want to build a new TBH for next year with sloped sides. What is the best angle to use for the sides? 
My current top bar hive has a fully screened bottom, but a knot hole that's a little over an inch in diameter for the entrance (the only entrance). I haven't had any problems with comb tearing away from the top bars. My hives get full sun during the Summer until about two o'clock, then are shaded. Don't know if that makes any difference.


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## Michael Bush

I'm not sure any "scientific" answer exists for the slope of the side, but 22 degrees or so off of vertical is popular. I've used it and it worked well. I think we are all wondering if less would still not get attached too much and if less slope would be weaker or stronger.


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## Barry

Dennis wrote:

"I chatted with Barry B. about his top bar hive the other day. He didn't have any comb failures and, if I understand correctly, stuck strickly to the optimum requirements for a hive cavity. I think it has only one entrance hole about 1 1/4" diameter."

Hi Dennis -

When is this TBH discussion going to out post the Permacomb thread? Let's go!

I had no comb failure, just bees that failed to build a hive full of comb. No screen bottom on the hive or upper ventilation, just an 1-1/4" hole at the end, or is it the beginning? Remember though, I had modified "frames" and not true top bars. Mine have some wires in them too. I also left them alone for the most part. Did very little hive inspection. I hope to tear into it more next year and see what they are doing.

Regards,
Barry


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## BWrangler

Greetings Everyone,

I have noticed that not every comb gets equally attached to the sidewalls of my tbh. But those storage combs that are full of honey are almost completely connected to the sidewall. Could it be possible that the bees can determine the amount of stress or stretch that is occuring on a specific comb and reinforce it by attaching it to the sidewall?

On another note, I was looking at the shape of some of the comb failure that occured last summer. The comb didn't fail along a horizontal or vertical line, but rather along an catenary type shape. That's the shape that a substance will take to equalize the forces under compression.

One way to create that kind of force that wasn't discussed before would be if the weight of the comb caused the top bar to deform. The top bar supported by its ends would bend the greatest amount at its midpoint. The comb could be stretched on the ends and compressed in middle.

I didn't notice any obvious top bar sagging. And I sure don't know how import a factor it could be as beeswax behaves very diffently when it's warm. Maybe it would take very little deformation to contribute to a failure.

Just some pondering on a Wyoming winter day.

Regards
Dennis
When plucking the comb, thunk is ok but twang means glue er in...pronto in bee talk


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## BWrangler

Hi Barry and Everyone,

I have an idea on how to pass all those permacomb guys.

I will let everyone know as soon as I can figure out how to get permacomb attached to a top bar.

Best Regards
Dennis

[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited November 08, 2003).]


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## Hillbillynursery

Some of you know me from the yahoo groups and a few post here. I plan on using what I got as far as lumber and tools goes. I have 2 X 4-12 left overs from job sites. I am going to make a long hive(2 langs long) and atleast do some experimenting with TBHs. 

Other than weight of the hive do you see a down side to using thick lumber as I do not plan on moving the hives? 
Will the added thickness give more insulation in winter?
How hard will it be cutting the angles needed to make a sloping sided TBH with just a skill saw and hand saws but no table saw? I may just use TBs for honey storage this year above my long hive.


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## Michael Bush

>Other than weight of the hive do you see a down side to using thick lumber as I do not plan on moving the hives? 

If the sides of the hive are more than 3/4" then you will have to build the tops to fit. I use migratory covers side by side on my long hives and they butt up against each other. If the hive were wider then the cleats on the migratory covers wouldn't fit. 

>Will the added thickness give more insulation in winter?

Of course.

>How hard will it be cutting the angles needed to make a sloping sided TBH with just a skill saw and hand saws but no table saw? 

How straight can you cut? I do this all the time with just a skill saw, but I once free formed an electric guitar body with a skill saw, cut a new round lid for my extractor with a skill saw etc. If you are good with a skill saw, it will be easy.

>I may just use TBs for honey storage this year above my long hive.

Are you sloping the sides on the TB supers? I'd say most of us had the most problems with honey. It's heavier. But then if it collapses it seems like less of a loss.

If it was me and I was going to use top bars for supers, I'd just cut them to fit a lanstroth box and use a shallow super. That way the weight won't be so much. I'm always torn between trying to get a natural arch to the shape of the comb or limiting the weight of the honey in proportion to the attachment to the bar (shallow vs deep). Whatever you decide, good luck. There is a beekeeper around here who for years has used just top bars in shallow supers with starter strips.


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## Ian

>Will the added thickness give more insulation in winter?

My brother is a carpenter. He tells me that 1" of fiberglass insulation =
3" of wood
18" of brick
21" of average soil
39" of concrete
44" of stone masonry

Kind of makes your head shake. Wood is a good insulator, compared to concreet

Ian


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## Hillbillynursery

I am going to make my own tops as well so the extra thickness will not be a problem there. I only got one good arm. My other is usable but is numb so it is hard to do alot with because I am constantly over or under gripping what I want to pick up with it. I guess I will give it a try. I have not used any of my saws since the accident. My plans for a TBH is a 2 X 12 with the angles cut for the sloped side and level the top. I am thinking this would be close to 10 inches deep. Most of you that had the TBHs had deeper hives to my memory. I will be unable to make a fancy top bar. I plan on ripping some 2xs to get the 1 1/2 inch wide bars. I am thinking that I will make these 1 inch thich for added suport partly because of a theory earlier in the thread that suggest the slightest bowing of the top bars may add to comb failer. I will have my TBHs where my colonies are now as I am going to move my hives in the spring. This location is easier to get to and has mid day/ early afternoon shade. The tree that gives them shade is a mighty white oak and I am thinking if I get acouple TBHs made I may suspend one from the lower limb on the south side to see if it makes a better hive to work. Plants that are grown with no wind will not build a thick stalk like those that have had wind blowing on them. This is why trees in the woods are more slender than trees out in the open. Maybe if bee feel a stress like the wind blowing the hive back and forth they will built the comb thicker and help keep the comb from failing. I got this idea from a site given on this board where they made a hive with solid top bar frames(no space for the bees to go up) and made them long and hung them in trees.


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## Michael Bush

I've thought a lot about the slope. I can't say there is more or less attachments, but the more I think about it, I think the corner of the comb was what would sway first and start the failure. I think without that corner sticking out the comb is much stronger and less prone to failure.

I think I will try two versions this spring.

1) a 48 3/4" long (three Lanstroth boxes) medium box with top bars to see if a shalower comb will hold up better because of more attachment to the top for the amount of comb.
2) a 16" wide 11" deep slope sided box to see if the narrower comb with sloped sides will hold up better. This seems to be the more common arrangment for a TBH.


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## silverlakefarm

I'm new to beekeeping. I'm planning on making some top bar hives this winter out of clear Rubbermaid containers. They seem to be about the right size and I thought it would be cool to see the bees at work. I'm wondering how the bees are affected by a clear hive as opposed to an opaque hive? Should I cover the hive to restrict light into it?

thanks,
Daniel


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## Michael Bush

>I'm new to beekeeping. I'm planning on making some top bar hives this winter out of clear Rubbermaid containers. They seem to be about the right size and I thought it would be cool to see the bees at work. I'm wondering how the bees are affected by a clear hive as opposed to an opaque hive? Should I cover the hive to restrict light into it?

Can you say "Solar wax melter"? Yes you need to restrict the light just to let the bees control the heat. Not to mention allowing the shy queen to get around.

I just put a sheet of plexiglass on one wall and drill holes in it to screw a frame of 1 x 2's on and then make a board to cover that. I remove the board to peek in. I don't know how the rubber maid plastic will work. I would think you'd get a lot of condensation.


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## BWrangler

Hi Daniel,

I don't think a clear plastic container would work very well. The bees, and especially the queen, are sensitive to light and the retreat away from it.

Also the bees nest in a cavity which helps moderate conditions, from both the summer heat and the winter cold. The plastic container wouldn't provide much moderation.

I had thought about using a cheap plastic cooler. They can be purchased on sale cheaper than the plastic container. A window could be constructed in one side for viewing and then closed during normal hive operations. 

Most of the cheap coolers are just a little too small for a large colony to overwinter in up North.

For me, a wooden tbh was cheaper. It was also easier to work with.

Regards and Happy Beekeeping
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

I drew up the plans for my slope sided TBH. It is simply a 4' 1 x 6 for the bottom (3/4" x 5 1/2") and two 4' 1 x 12s for the sides (3/4" x 11 1/4") and two 15" long 1 x 12s for the ends. I want to design something anyone can build so I will leave all the ends square and nail through the bottom of the 1 x 6 into the 1 x 12s and then spread the 1 x 12s to 15" at the top and nail the 15" long ends into the sloped sides I think I'll make the entrance in the center of the end. I have those disks for nucs I could use to control the entrance, or I could make it a slot and use a piece of wood for the reducer. I think I'll skip the SBB etc. I figure the comb on this will yeild three 4" x 4" cut comb chunks. I'm afraid of comb collapse if the comb is bigger and afraid of ineffecient laying if it's smaller.

I'm going to rip 1 bys to 1 5/16" wide to make the top bars and rip the edges of a 1 by at 45 degrees to make a "centerer" that makes a strip I will nail and glue on the bottom of the bars to keep the combs centered. Then I'll wax the lower edge of the "centerer".

I'm still contemplating going to 1 1/2" or 1 5/8" wide bars for the super portion of the hive.

I bought the materials last night.


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## Hillbillynursery

On the same thinking as you, I plan on making my TBH out of 2"X12"s( i have the material from job sites) as sides but I am going to use plywood for a bottom. I want the top the widthbeing the width of the narrow side of the lang and 2 times as long so that I can supper the hive.


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## BusyBee

I was thinking of doing a TBH this spring, but heres what I was thinking of doing.
I was going to make my bars so that they fit into a regular medium langstroth. However I was thinking instead of leaving them at that, I could make sides on the top bar that are wider at the top so that the bees attach the comb to the sides too. That would give the comb some extra support and I would not have to worry about comb being attached to the sides of the hive. Im still not sure wether or not to put a bottom bar on it to make it a complete frame. I plan on using my TBH exclusively for comb honey production.

What do you all think?

Jon


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## Hillbillynursery

If you are going to the trouble of adding sides and maybe a bottom bar why not just use frames with a starter strip instead of foundation. The reason I want to try TBHs is to get away from ordering boxes and frames. If I had the money for a table saw and a jointer I would make everything I need. I have a few beekeepers say I am crazy for using 2Xs for the bottom boards I made this year. Yes they are much heavier than the ones made out of plywood but the wood was free and I do not move my hives around. The other reason for TBHs is to watch the bees as close to nature as possible but yet manage them. I have a piece of plexy glass that is going to become the side of my deep long hive. In the back I am planning on using frames with just a starter strip at the top. This way I can actually watch the hive exspand. But we will see if I can get these done while my wife is out of college for winter break. Since my back injury I have become Mr. Mom. What little time she is home she has to study and spend a little with the kids and me. I can not wait for Dec. 19th.


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## silverlakefarm

I had a question about a post Steve made a while back.

I belive he said he used bars with no starter strip just the blank bar and that worked just fine. In all the reading I've done about top bar hives I have never heard of this. I'm I reading that correctly and if so it seems like a pretty radical idea. Does anyone have a comment on that idea?

thanks,
Daniel


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## Hillbillynursery

There is a way of cutting your tob bar that makes a V on the bottom of the bars. With these type of bars all you need to do is rub this ridge with wax for a starter. It is said the combs will be straighter and that they are less likely to cross comb.


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## Michael Bush

>I belive he said he used bars with no starter strip just the blank bar and that worked just fine. In all the reading I've done about top bar hives I have never heard of this. I'm I reading that correctly and if so it seems like a pretty radical idea. Does anyone have a comment on that idea?

I have cut a slope on the bottom of the bar with no starter strip. I have done starter strips. I am experimenting more on what angle to do, but I'm going to do a 45 degree from each side (a 90 degree with the verticie pointing down) this time. The slope works as well or maybe a bit better than the starter strip. But bees will be bees and nothing is gauranteed. I think getting the spacing of the bars right helps keep them in line.

I tried a longer top bar (standard Lanstroth size) with with straight sides and standard depth (9 5/8") and the combs failed. 

The one I'm building now, the bars are 15" (meaning the combs are only a little over 12") and the sides are sloped. The comb will be about the same depth (9 1/2" or so) but is only about 4" wide at the bottom. This seems to be closer to the TBH's I know of that are succeeding. The acual comb will be half the size (and weight) of what my last failure was.

I may also try one in a standard medium box to see if just shortening the comb will help with failures. The square comb will be easier to cut with less waste.


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## Steve-

Hello All:

Daniel, you did read correctly but I also stated I had originally used a starter strip. In my first year I used 3 or 4 starter strips and once the bees had started building on them I inserted blank bars and the bees lined up and took care of the rest. My bars are flat no v cut. I know that method may not appeal to some but it has worked for me. When I have started new hives since, I just take two bars that have been started or bars that have been harvested and place them in the new hive put a blank between them and the bees have done the rest. 
I had thought I might try a sloped hive but after reading of the difficulty folks had this past summer I have decided to stay with my straight sided design. I have not lost a bar or comb for 2 summers. I did reduce the size of my hives I believe that is what has helped. The inside depth I now use is right at 12 inches, on one box my top bars are 19" long and on the other 17". This summer I collected 60 lbs of surplus honey out of my small hive that can hold only 15 bars. I used the last four bars in the hive for harvest - multiple harvest of that section kept it from becoming honey bound and it did not swarm (the bees filled the bars again in the fall, for winter).

Happy Hiving,
Steve


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## Kansas Volunteer

I've been reading and re-reading the discussion of the tbh and would like some advice. In fact I'll take all I can get. I want to build a top bar hive. I've corresponded with a few of the folks regularly posting here, and have gotten some good tips.

Now, it's time to pull it all together and start building. I'm figuring on making a Kenyan tbh that would be 16-inches wide and 12-inches deep (inside measurment) and long enough to set about 20 to 24 bars.

I'm wondering a lot about the smaller details, like openings, ventilation and such. Also, should I put in a wire mesh bottom? What about using some sort of false floor over the wire mesh bottom, if I go that way, like the plastic grids used in the CalKenyan hives? Or, would a solid bottom be better?

I have a big pile of nice scrap lumber, and the tools and skills needed to build a hive. It can be as simple or detailed as seems approriate. So, tell me, if you were building the tbh of your dreams, what would it look like? Or, if you had to do it all over agian, what would you do differently? Am I on the right track?

David S.


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## Michael Bush

I will preface this with my experience so far. I built a top bar hive back in the 70's but it was small and temporary. I did not maintain a TBH nor did I attempt another one until last year. I built the bars and simply started them in a standard Lanstroth deep and then moved them to a double wide Lanstroth deep (32 1/2 x 19 7/8") with a screened bottom board. The combs collapsed and I tied them into wooden frames and move them into a Lanstroth hive. From listening to other failures and successes (but this is no from my sucess yet) I decided the combs definitely needed to be smaller and perhaps the open screened bottom board interfered with natural ventilation of the bees and caused the combs to get too hot. So this time I decided to keep it simple and not bother with the screened bottom. I also shortened the bars and sloped the sides. The one I built in the 70's was slope sided so I decided that may have to do with it's sucess. Perhaps it's not about connections to the sides (I tried both sloped and straight now and don't see that much difference) but about the strength of the shape. The one I just built is made from three four foot 1 x 12's a four foot 1 x 6 and two 15" 1 x 12's. I set the 1 x 12's up with the 1 x 6 on top and naile down through the 1 x 6 into the 1 x 12. I marked the center of the 15" boards and the center of the 1 x 6 and nailed the 15" 1 x 12s to the 1 x 6. Then I spread the 1 x 12 sides out to the ends of the 15" ends and nailed them. I'm making my bars out of 1 x ripped to 1 1/4" for the brood chamber (I have small cell bees) and 1 1/2" for the back portion which will be the honey. I was thinking of leaving the gap at the front between the edge and the first bar for the entrance. I have an old piece of 3/4 plywood I'm putting on top for a lid so that would leave a gap about 5/16" at top between the lid and the box.

>Now, it's time to pull it all together and start building. I'm figuring on making a Kenyan tbh that would be 16-inches wide and 12-inches deep (inside measurment) and long enough to set about 20 to 24 bars.

Sounds reasonable. I would probably make it a little longer. The size I did and the method I used required no ripping of the sides and all cuts are square. 16 inches wide will reqire something wider than a 1 x 12 to do the sides and have it 12" deep. Mine ended up closer to 10 1/2" deep.

>I'm wondering a lot about the smaller details, like openings, ventilation and such.

Play it by ear. Leave an opening. See if they seem too hot and all hanging outside and decide if you need more ventilation. If so, I'd try to have the door and the vent at opposite ends at opposite heights. In other words, if the entrance is on the top, put the vent in the back at the bottom. If the entrance is on the front at the top, put the vent in the back at the bottom. Put some screen wire on the vent in the back and make a cover that lets the air in but blocks the direct light so they don't propolize it so much.

>Also, should I put in a wire mesh bottom? 

That's up to you. I skipped it this time, but I came to the conclusion that I'm building an experiment, not a permenant hive. I think the open SBB may have contributed to failure of the comb.

>What about using some sort of false floor over the wire mesh bottom, if I go that way, like the plastic grids used in the CalKenyan hives? Or, would a solid bottom be better?

I like slatted racks in my hives and that was what the CalKenyan was trying to emulate. I like the idea. As I said, I concluded that this was just an experimental and after I work out the details of comb size and shape I'll polish up the design.

>I have a big pile of nice scrap lumber, and the tools and skills needed to build a hive. It can be as simple or detailed as seems approriate. So, tell me, if you were building the tbh of your dreams, what would it look like? Or, if you had to do it all over agian, what would you do differently? Am I on the right track?

I decided the main appeal of a TBH was simplicity. So I went for simple this time.


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

Ok. Now you have done it. You/ve got me thinking about my tbh. :> )I had the lumber cut for my next tbh and was waiting for a really nasty spell of winter weather to assemble it.

I continue to have questions concerning entrances and ventilation. I have found that the bees do best when my hives approximate what they want if left to themselves. But I have my drill handy and can modify my understanding anytime their behavior dictates. :> )

I would add a cleat across each end of my tbh. I move my hives and the tbh is easy to move with a cart but hard to position without the cleats.

I will make my next top bars 1 3/8"s wide rather than the 1 1/4"s prevously used. The narrower bar worked perfect in the broodnest but the bees over-ran it in the honey storage area. I'm not sure if the wider bar will work any better there.

My top bars will be thicker at 1" rather than 3/4"s.

I will cut attached comb using an L or J shaped device like the one mentioned earlier on this forum. The hive tool will stay in the truck.

Any starter strip used won't extend farther than about a cell width beyond the top bar.

One of the neatest aspects of a tbh is that they are designed, built and run according to the beekeepers needs. I've found them most rewarding so far.

Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

I am cutting the corner off of a 1 by and using it glued and nailed (and clinched) on to the top bar. This keeps the bar from sliding back and forth, sidways, and elimimates the starter strips altogehter.

So the end of the bar looks like this:
_
V


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## Kansas Volunteer

Michael and Wrangler, I have quite a bit of 3/4 plywood, so I can make my hive 12 inches deep easily enough. All the other dimensions can be varied as well. I've deduced from my reading that the folks having problems with comb breakage, for the most part, have top bars longer than 16 inches, so I settled on that figure for my inside width. Not all the breaking combs have been in deep hives, but most seem to have been, so I figured 10 to 12 inches would make a good compromise.

I was reading at the Steve Cushman site, I believe I've got it right, about the catenary hive desing. There's mention there of putting a baffle just inside the entrance, allowing a bee space, to stop wind from blowing in. So, here's what I'm wondering: If I make a tbh with a 1.25-inch round hole for an opening, as there seems to be an argument for that, if I placed a larger disk, say 2-inches, one bee space away, on the inside of the hive, centered over the opening, would it help any, or would it hurt? Also, would it be worthwhile to leave the equivalent of one bar's space at the front of the hive for a lobby area for the bees to move through?

Here's my next "issue." You can read on-line at http://www.beedata.com/data3/hollow_tree.htm about an interesting experiment. The guy decided that combs should be kept six inches above the floor, and likewise the entrance should be that high, or higher, for mite control. Would it be worthwile to put some sort of slatted bottom in a tbh, stopping combs from extending below six inches above the floor, in accordance with the hollow tree theory? If it is, would having a solid bottom, or a wire mesh bottom make any difference?

In this case, how about putting a vent hole near the bottom, back and the opening up high? It would make for a natural draw, to some extent. I think someone here wrote about natural ventilation in hives. This would make sort of a combination tbh and hollow tree hive.

Here's a theory I shared with one of the other tbh guys on the side: if the top bars were made in a boomerang shape, viewed from the side, when placed in the hive, they would rise from the supported ends to form a ridge down the top of the hive, like many of the house-roof-like covers put on hives. Comb built from these top bars would be somewhat stiffer and less likely to break away from the bar due to movement (although maybe not due to heat) it certainly adds a level of complication to the tbh, but would it perhaps help enough with comb breakage to be worth while?

One final question. I've seen a mention here somewhere of an optimum hive capacity, or volume, the way I understood it. Does anyone know what that is?


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## Kansas Volunteer

Michael and Wrangler, I have quite a bit of 3/4 plywood, so I can make my hive 12 inches deep easily enough. All the other dimensions can be varied as well. I've deduced from my reading that the folks having problems with comb breakage, for the most part, have top bars longer than 16 inches, so I settled on that figure for my inside width. Not all the breaking combs have been in deep hives, but most seem to have been, so I figured 10 to 12 inches would make a good compromise.

I was reading at the Steve Cushman site, I believe I've got it right, about the catenary hive desing. There's mention there of putting a baffle just inside the entrance, allowing a bee space, to stop wind from blowing in. So, here's what I'm wondering: If I make a tbh with a 1.25-inch round hole for an opening, as there seems to be an argument for that, if I placed a larger disk, say 2-inches, one bee space away, on the inside of the hive, centered over the opening, would it help any, or would it hurt? Also, would it be worthwhile to leave the equivalent of one bar's space at the front of the hive for a lobby area for the bees to move through?

Here's my next "issue." You can read on-line at http://www.beedata.com/data3/hollow_tree.htm about an interesting experiment. The guy decided that combs should be kept six inches above the floor, and likewise the entrance should be that high, or higher, for mite control. Would it be worthwile to put some sort of slatted bottom in a tbh, stopping combs from extending below six inches above the floor, in accordance with the hollow tree theory? If it is, would having a solid bottom, or a wire mesh bottom make any difference?

In this case, how about putting a vent hole near the bottom, back and the opening up high? It would make for a natural draw, to some extent. I think someone here wrote about natural ventilation in hives. This would make sort of a combination tbh and hollow tree hive.

Here's a theory I shared with one of the other tbh guys on the side: if the top bars were made in a boomerang shape, viewed from the side, when placed in the hive, they would rise from the supported ends to form a ridge down the top of the hive, like many of the house-roof-like covers put on hives. Comb built from these top bars would be somewhat stiffer and less likely to break away from the bar due to movement (although maybe not due to heat) it certainly adds a level of complication to the tbh, but would it perhaps help enough with comb breakage to be worth while?

One final question. I've seen a mention here somewhere of an optimum hive capacity, or volume, the way I understood it. Does anyone know what that is?


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## Michael Bush

As far as draftproofing the entrance, a top entrance with a comb to block the draft into the hive is the "natural" way the bees do it in a tree.

I think the optimal size a swarm prefers is a different matter from the optimal size of a full hive. I believe it is approximately 4 liters in volume. Having a follower allows you to change the size to suit the season or the hive size.

A log hive is the opposite (in regards to direction) of a TBH or any trough hive. But I think the essentials of the success of a log hive are two factors.

1) A top entrance so that the varroa that fall off don't get the opportunity to climb on bees entering the hive.

2) A pile of detrius and a gap to it at the bottom of the hive. This is usually full of ants and wax moth larvae.

I don't know that both couldn't be maintained in a trough formation, but most hives are not set up that way. In theory the SBB is an attempt to get the same effect as far as Varroa. They fall off but can't get back on, and it maintains a small, but useful, gap at the bottom. Spreading the bees horizontally may be MORE effective if there is an upper entrance and no bees where the varroa fall (SBB or slatted rack effect etc.)

These effects (bottom entrance, no detrius etc.) are in my list of things we change from nature by the way we keep bees. I think we need to do more experimenting and research on the effects of such things.

Most of the bee scientists (I spend a weekend with several a couple of weeks ago) believe that the feral bees are extinct, so they have no interst in it from that point of view.


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## BWrangler

Hi Michael and Kansas Volunteer,

I'd noticed that the bees will bend a comb to form a wind baffle if the entrance is parallel to the comb. When it's perpendicular the first comb forms the wind baffle. That's why I put my entrance in the end of the tbh.

I'm not sure about the entrance cluster space If you try it out, let us know how it works.

A force applied perpendicular to the comb is the most damaging force. The bees will curl the ends of the comb toward the entrance to reinforce the comb against movement in that direction. I used long starter strips in my tbh and the bees attached the comb rather weakly to my top bars. Yet, none of my comb failed at that point. 

I used screened bottom boards with my standard equipment. When I converted that equipment to small cell and stop counting mites, I removed the sbb without any negative effects. I'm hoping that with natural sized comb, the same processes will occur. In my climate, central Wyoming, the bees do better without the sbb because of our high winds late, cold springs and lousy fall weather. 

Concerning optimum size/volume, my bees quickly drew out about the equivalent of two deeps. Then they packed the area above the broodness with honey leaving the core broodnest area, that area of small cell sized comb, free for brood rearing.

The top bars behind the broodnest, in the honey storage area, were then filled to about top bar 20. After that the bees reduced their activity much like a hive does before it swarms although they had plenty of room, bees and forage. 

When I transferred these bees to standard equipment with abundant empty space directly above the broodnest, these same bees filled two deep supers in less than 10 days. That's the difference in production between a tbh and standard equipment, lots of space above the broodnest.

Others have reported much the same, even though some run somewhat shallower hives than mine. The volumes still work to about two deep supers. 

I originally though that longer would be better but wouldn't build one much longer that 24 bars, now. 

Hey Michael, when you find some of those small, black, nasty ferals to remove just repeat:

I can't get stung they are extinct...
I can't get stung they are extinct... :> )

Regards
Dennis


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## BWrangler

Hey Kansas Volunteer,

Take some pictures of your tbh project. I'd like to see what you come up with. 

Regards
Dennis


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## BWrangler

Hi Everyone,

Almost all of the ventilation in my tbh occured along the bottom board. As the combs got heavy, the bees securely fastened them to the sidewalls, especially in the honey storage area. Very little space was left for ventilation at the top and sides. Most combs had, at most, only a couple of finger sized holes along a side. 

I had planned to drill some 3/4" holes toward the rear top edge of the hive to provide some draft if needed. But I think that very little draft would have resulted except in within a very localized area.

Barry used a 1 1/4" entrance hole and had a slot along the bottom of his tbh that could be opened. There was a small gap there and the bees propolized it shut.

It seems they want to tightly control the ventilation in the hive if possible.

Regards
Dennis


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## Kansas Volunteer

Michael, your remarked earlier:

"A log hive is the opposite (in regards to direction) of a TBH or any trough hive. But I think the essentials of the success of a log hive are two factors.

"1) A top entrance so that the varroa that fall off don't get the opportunity to climb on bees entering the hive.

"2) A pile of detrius and a gap to it at the bottom of the hive. This is usually full of ants and wax moth larvae.

"I don't know that both couldn't be maintained in a trough formation, but most hives are not set up that way. In theory the SBB is an attempt to get the same effect as far as Varroa. They fall off but can't get back on, and it maintains a small, but useful, gap at the bottom. Spreading the bees horizontally may be MORE effective if there is an upper entrance and no bees where the varroa fall (SBB or slatted rack effect etc.)

"These effects (bottom entrance, no detrius etc.) are in my list of things we change from nature by the way we keep bees. I think we need to do more experimenting and research on the effects of such things."

The way I read it, you are saying that the accumulaltion of detritis at the bottom of the hive might not be a bad thing, as long as the bees don't have to wade in it? Is that right?

If so, it would seem a solid bottom board, not mesh, would be perfectly acceptable.

I'm beginning to wonder, too, if rather than worrying over ventilation so much, if maybe it would be better to think about insulation. A natural, or feral, hive would likely be built in something better insulated than a human-built box. Hollow trees usually have more than 3/4" wood surrounding the bees.

Anyway, I'm wondering what's best for the bees, rather than what's best for the beekeeper. On the other hand, bees be ****ed, I want to build a tbh just to see the thing work!

David S.


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## Michael Bush

>The way I read it, you are saying that the accumulaltion of detritis at the bottom of the hive might not be a bad thing, as long as the bees don't have to wade in it? Is that right?

I'm saying that all natural hives are that way and we don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing. The fact is the bees WON'T wade in it, which makes it like the SBB where they CAN'T walk there. So there is a place for the mites (and the trash) to go that the bees won't walk in it. Perhaps it acts as a magnet for the wax moths. I think they reproduce at a high enough rate elsewhere and get eaten by the birds at a high enough rate that the population is probably constant. Maybe having the detrius in the bottom draws the moths to lay there instead of the hive? I think it would be another interesting research project.

>If so, it would seem a solid bottom board, not mesh, would be perfectly acceptable.

I'm not ready to tolerate the detrius in a hive until I'm convinced it IS a good thing. But a solid board with a SBB above it gives somewhere for the mites to go. I decided to just keep it simple and focus on coming up with a workable hive and skip the bells and whistles.

>I'm beginning to wonder, too, if rather than worrying over ventilation so much, if maybe it would be better to think about insulation. A natural, or feral, hive would likely be built in something better insulated than a human-built box. Hollow trees usually have more than 3/4" wood surrounding the bees.

True. It's thicker, but often the entrace is quite small and often it is quite large. The space inside varies a lot in size also.

>Anyway, I'm wondering what's best for the bees, rather than what's best for the beekeeper. On the other hand, bees be ****ed, I want to build a tbh just to see the thing work!

Any beehive is a compromise between the needs of the bees and the beekeeper.


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## Michael Bush

I guess part of my point in the previous post is that ANY beehive is a compromise anyway. Bees adjust to handle the entrance and space available especially in nature.


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

The entrance across the front of my tbh had about twice the area that a swarm prefers. The bees built the comb down to withing a bee space of the hive bottom and very little communication space was left on the sides.

Barry, used the optimum sized area for the entrance in his tbh. Preliminary reports from Barry indicate that the bees left much more space between the comb and the hive bottom.

Lot's of other factors could be involved. But it's interesting to think about how the bees might be shaping the hive environment.

Regards
Dennis
Thinking were getting close to passing the permacomb forum and I haven't figured out how to attach permacomb to a top bar yet:> )


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## Russ

Hey Guys, Just had another thought {DANGEROUS}, You might put the screen in the bottom of the hive and then install a removable slide out board kinda like the one used to close up the SSB. You could remove this board to remove the debrie without disturbing the bees. If you needed more ventilation you could slide it open slightly and close it if you don't think it is needed. What do you think?


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## Hillbillynursery

Since permacomb does not have a top bar you could use a good silicon glue. Liquid nails would most likely work good, but it is not food safe. LOL

OK, Here is some thoughts for my TBH. The bottom will be plywood. The sides out of 2X12s with the angle cut on each end to make the 22 degree slope and level it back off for the bars. It will be 16? inches wide(same as the narrow width of a lang) at the top. My bars will be flat with saw mark for the starter strip. I am going to measure it out and drill holes thru the top bar for supering. The holes will be in the center of the bar about 1/4 inch from the walls. I thought this would aslo help keep the bees from attatching the sides. My top bars will be a full inch thick. 
Now to the questions to finish design. What is the best width for the bars? I was planning on just ripping 2Xs so they would be 1 1/2.
What size hole to drill in the top bars for suppering? Or maybe better put what size hole will keep the queen down yet give maxium space for workers to go thru. I do plan on having an upper entrance. 
What length should I make it? I have decided it may be better to build my suppers to fit, but then again I would like to keep everything the same. If I do use the double long side as my length(about 40 inches) it would be about 2 1/4 deeps. This would not be to much of a length but would another length be better? 
I am still debating with myself if I want to put a screened bottom in it. Those of you that have, Did you have the comb failure? Those that did not use SBB, did you have the comb failure? I want the SBB for might control but ( I forget names to easy) the one that did not have failure said that there was only the one 1 1/4 inch hole with no other venting. I know there was talk about wether or not the extra venting was good or bad for the bees to keep the temps right.

Happy Christmas and New year to all( as forgetful as I am I thought I better say it while I was thinking about it.
JC


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## Kansas Volunteer

Michael, thanks for elaborating on your earlier post. It makes perfectly good sense. I see where you are coming from.

I do think I'll go ahead and build my hive with a screened bottom, and also have a sliding bottom board to entirely close off the bottom. That way I can see what the bees seem to prefer and go either way.

I value simpliicty, but my curiousity and imagination often run away with me, and things get complicated. I'm trying to think the building of a tbh through fairly well, and try to keep things from getting out of hand!

The ideas presented here have been very useful.

My tbh will be my only hive, and my first hive in a long time. I don't want or need aother -- but who knows where this will all wind up -- and I'm trying to get the hive as right as I can the first time.

Is anyone here familiar with the Dartington Long Deep hive? Is there anything to be learned from it?

David S.


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## Michael Bush

>OK, Here is some thoughts for my TBH. The bottom will be plywood. The sides out of 2X12s with the angle cut on each end to make the 22 degree slope and level it back off for the bars. It will be 16? inches wide(same as the narrow width of a lang) at the top.

Sounds reasonable.

>My bars will be flat with saw mark for the starter strip.

Meaning you will put in a starter strip of foundation or wax? 

>I am going to measure it out and drill holes thru the top bar for supering. The holes will be in the center of the bar about 1/4 inch from the walls. I thought this would aslo help keep the bees from attatching the sides.

Sounds reasonable. Let us know how it works.

>My top bars will be a full inch thick. 

My last ones were 3/8" thick and worked fine. My new ones are 3/4" thick just for convienience.

>Now to the questions to finish design. What is the best width for the bars? I was planning on just ripping 2Xs so they would be 1 1/2.

I did my last ones 1 1/2" wide. The bees worked it well in the honey section but would try to crowd it in the brood section. They would ignore my starter strips and move it over 1/4"

>What size hole to drill in the top bars for suppering?

3/8"

>Or maybe better put what size hole will keep the queen down yet give maxium space for workers to go thru.

I wouldn't worry about the queen. She doesn't have any good reason to leave the brood nest.

>I do plan on having an upper entrance. 
What length should I make it?

I'm going to leave the gap at the end of the last bar for the entrance, with a flat plywood top over that it shouldn't rain in. I made a bar for the end so I can just slide it sideways and control the entrance size.

>I have decided it may be better to build my suppers to fit, but then again I would like to keep everything the same. If I do use the double long side as my length(about 40 inches) it would be about 2 1/4 deeps. This would not be to much of a length but would another length be better? 

I'm still experimenting on length of long hives. But from my experience and other and from taking bees out of odd places I'd say that 48" isn't too long. Since you're going for the width of a Lang and want to use supers, I'd go for 39 5/8" (two lang boxes long ways). Anything less than 32" I think is too short.

>I am still debating with myself if I want to put a screened bottom in it. Those of you that have, Did you have the comb failure? 

I did an open screened bottom board on my last one and I did have comb failure. I don't know if it contributed or not.

I'm not putting one on this one, but if the dimensions work out well, I may put an enclosed SBB on the next one.


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## Kansas Volunteer

I think I've seen every picture of a tbh that's on the web. But I've found some dead links to one site, that was mentioned here in the discussion of tbh. The Tanzania style hives at this dead site were mentioned as being very nice looking. I can't think of the URL now, but it had XSCD, or something like that, in it. If anyone has saved pictures from that site, I'd like to see them, if you'd email them to me.

I'd really like to see pictures of tbh that aren't on the web, if anyone has any to share. I work better with pictures, sometimes.

Is there a bibliography of tbh anywhere? If not, would you be willing to help me start one, and post some references here, or email them to me?

David S.


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## Michael Bush

I have quite a few links. I will try to find them all, but I think they have been posted before. In case you didn't know, the difference between a Tansanian and a Kenyan is the sloped sides on the Kenyan and the perpendicular sides on the Tansanian. I will try one more straight sided one with less depth (standard medium with a 3/4 space at the bottom is basically a 1 x 8 (7 1/4")high), but so far I did one that was a standard deep (9 5/8" + 3/4" at the bottom) but I haven't had any luck with them. If the shallower one doesn't work then the other thing to try is a less wide one.


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## Hillbillynursery

Thanks MB,

>My bars will be flat with saw mark for the starter strip.

Meaning you will put in a starter strip of foundation or wax? 

Yes, to place the starter strip into.

I did my last ones 1 1/2" wide. The bees worked it well in the honey section but would try to crowd it in the brood section. They would ignore my starter strips and move it over 1/4"

I have read that 1 1/4 inches wide worked good for the brood chamber but when they got back to the honey stores they would make it wider than the bar. So I guess maybe 1 3/8 inch may work better for booth. More input please.


I did an open screened bottom board on my last one and I did have comb failure. I don't know if it contributed or not.

I'm not putting one on this one, but if the dimensions work out well, I may put an enclosed SBB on the next one.

So you to are wondering if they help or hurt the comb. It just seems weird that the person that kept the hive simple was the one that did not have comb failure. But it may be that those of us that like to tinker with different designs may also like to tinker in the hive more. This is a worry of mine so I am going to put a glass end in the back of the hive so I can watch them work and progress without opening the hive.

Another thing is I am not worried about swarming. I will do my best to trap/collect any that do swarm. I am still trying to build my number of hives and not worried about getting a honey crop except a small amount for me. I hope to make my 2 hives into 6 to 10 this year taking into count that I hope to catch a couple swarms as well.


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## Michael Bush

>Yes, to place the starter strip into.

I think it works ok if the bees like the spacing but they ignor it if they don't. I'm going to put a 90 degree (45 on each side) piece on the bottom of the bars to try to encourage them to build in the right place.

>I have read that 1 1/4 inches wide worked good for the brood chamber but when they got back to the honey stores they would make it wider than the bar. So I guess maybe 1 3/8 inch may work better for booth. More input please.

If you want them all the same size, I think 1 3/8 is the best you can do. But maybe the right thing is to have two different spacings (since the bees WANT two different spacings). One for the brood (1 1/4") and one for the honey (1 1/2").

>So you to are wondering if they help or hurt the comb. It just seems weird that the person that kept the hive simple was the one that did not have comb failure. But it may be that those of us that like to tinker with different designs may also like to tinker in the hive more. This is a worry of mine so I am going to put a glass end in the back of the hive so I can watch them work and progress without opening the hive.

I had plexiglass on the back of mine with a board to cover it. It was educational to be able to watch without opening it. I didn't mess with it much, but the comb still collapsed. Certainly I think it's messing with it at all that contributes, but then what is the point of a hive you can't open?

>Another thing is I am not worried about swarming. I will do my best to trap/collect any that do swarm. I am still trying to build my number of hives and not worried about getting a honey crop except a small amount for me. I hope to make my 2 hives into 6 to 10 this year taking into count that I hope to catch a couple swarms as well.

I'm not that worried about it, but would like to have enough room to have a booming hive.


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## Hillbillynursery

If I choose to make 2 sizes of top bars how many of them need to be 1 1/4 for the brood?

Some said that 15 tbs were used for brood and then they started storing honey. Would this not be due to the size of the hive?

My hive will be narrower and shallower. So I would have to wait for them to start storing honey to know were to change the size. All those 1/8s or 1/4s of an inch add up and would effect the final length to a point.


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## Michael Bush

>If I choose to make 2 sizes of top bars how many of them need to be 1 1/4 for the brood?
Some said that 15 tbs were used for brood and then they started storing honey. Would this not be due to the size of the hive?

My guess is it would depend on the size of the combs how many they will fill with brood, but only time will tell for sure in any given hive with any given queen.

>My hive will be narrower and shallower. So I would have to wait for them to start storing honey to know were to change the size. All those 1/8s or 1/4s of an inch add up and would effect the final length to a point.

That's my theory. I made them half and half and figure I'll just move some of the 1 1/4" to the back and the 1 1/2" to the front when they start spacing them further apart. Then I'll know how many more 1 1/2" bars to make.


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## BWrangler

Greetings,

>If I choose to make 2 sizes of top bars how many ...

Experience with a particular tbh is the only indication.

Somehow the bees can determine just where, what shape and size the broodnest needs to be. Some factors that affect the structure include cavity volume, orientation, entrance size and position, and maybe even the swarm size itself.

Almost nothing is known about broonest structure in enough detail to make an estimation.

But structure is very important. I think broodnest frames should be marked so that their orientation can be maintained.

Some Thoughts
Dennis


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## Kansas Volunteer

Well, I'm still thinking hard about a tbh. I've been soing quite a bit full-size drawing, "thought experiments" and reading, and I've about decided that my 16-inch wide tbh, should probably be only 8 or 9 inches deep, rather that 10 to 12. So, I'm getting closer to Michael's dimension for his new hive.

Now, I'm curious about a slatted bottom board for the hive. The plastic grid at the CalKenyan tbh website is a nice solution, but I'm a woodworker, and have lots of scrap lumber to use-up.

Can anyone give me some ideas for ways to build the sbb for the tbh? (Man this is getting as bad as military jargon!)

What dimensions for the slats? the gap between? Should the slats run lengthwise to the tbh (probably less work to make)? Or, should they run crosswise?

David S.


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## Michael Bush

>Can anyone give me some ideas for ways to build the sbb for the tbh? (Man this is getting as bad as military jargon!)

Acually a SBB is a Screened Bottom Board. I believe you want a Slatted Rack.

Let's assume you have 1 1/4" bars then make the slats 3/8" less so they will be 7/8". Space them 3/8" apart and run them directly centered under the top bars. That way the mites fall through and not on the bars. You can make them as thick as you like but I wouldn't exceed 3/4". But you could do as small as 3/8".

Then you have to face the problem of differening widths of top bars.







Maybe if you made little racks that are about 8 or ten frames wide you could make some of each spacing and mix them up. Or just assume the brood nest is where the varroa hang out and make them all that size.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited December 16, 2003).]


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## Hillbillynursery

This is for Dennis(Bwrangler),

The comb on top bar 7 was drawn almost exactly opposite the rest of the comb in the broodnest. Drone size cells were drawn on the left side and down low. And worker cells were drawn on the right side. I initially thought that I had reversed the comb when working the hive. Early shots showed that the wood in this top bar had a unique knot and the orientation was correct. 

The bees had trouble working with this comb. Some shots indicate the bees were attempting to rework the comb at different times. Combs on either side were drawn out smoothly and finished long before this one. The bottom edges remained ragged and this comb was never really finished off. Maybe one of the subcontractors goofed up. :> )

This is a quote from your OBs 2 page. Comb 7 threw your numbers way off, since comb 7 did not have much if any worker comb in it. The way the bees even refused to complete it is proof they did not want it there. Some say if you put your new TB in between 2 drawn TBs that you get good straight combs. And you had a comb fail that was rebuilt in 3 days to the point you could not tell which comb had collapsed. The bees have need for drones and will find/make a place to raise them. But since this comb was such a mess would it have been better to cut the comb and let the bees rebuild it? 

Could you get more small cell by percentage by expanding the broodnest by adding TBs in the middle?
I say this because you know of the benifit of small cell and this should not disdurb the balance much in the favor of small cell.

You had another comb that had alot of drone or larger cells. This one could also be culled to lessen the number of drones and hope that you could get more worker and small cell. My idea here is to get the best of both worlds. Plus culling some drones may help with mites. I know I want 2 TBHs finished and ready for spring.


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## BWrangler

Hi Hillbillynursery and Everyone,

I am pleasantly surprised that someone has finally read the text and given my observations some thought. I will attempt to answer as best I can.

>Comb 7 threw your numbers way off, since comb 7 did not have much if >any worker comb in it. The way the bees even refused to complete it is >proof they did not want it there.

Actually, everything the bees did threw my numbers way off. I had expected the bees to drawn out mostly small cell sized worker brood. :> ) But bees being bees, did what they are genetically programed to do and didn't have any regard for my expectations which were mostly based on others speculations. The numbers I reported are not way off. They reflect, within my ability to measure, what the bees constructed.

The entire right side of the comb was larger size worker brood as was the finger like projections on the left. The bees were quite happy with the larger worker and drone brood in every location except were small cell sized worker brood would have been drawn if the comb been drawn like the surrounding comb. If the comb had been rotated, it would have matched the rest in percentage of drone and large cell sized worker brood. It may be hard to see that in the thumbnail photos of top bar 7 but I reported that fact in the text on my web pages.

Looking at those thumbnails, I think that if the comb had been finished off like those surrounding it, about twice the area of larger worker size cell would have been constructed and less than 20% of the whole area would have been constructed as small cell. The amount of drone comb would have stayed about the same. What do you see/think?

>Some say if you put your new TB in between 2 drawn TBs... 
>And you had a comb fail that was rebuilt in 3 days to the point you >could not tell which comb had collapsed....
>But since this comb was such a mess would it have been better to cut >the comb and let the bees rebuild it... 

My objective in that tbh was to watch what the bees did by themselves. Lots of details have to be worked out for managing comb in a tbh. I think I would have cut the comb off top bar 7 and given them another chance had I been managing the tbh. 

>Could you get more small cell by percentage by expanding the broodnest >by adding TBs in the middle?

I'm not sure it's needed. The unanswered question is how much small cell sized comb do the bees need to handle the mites. With lots of help from you tbh guys that question should be answered soon.


>You had another comb that had alot of drone or larger cells. This one >could also be culled to lessen the number of drones and hope that you >could get more worker and small cell. My idea here is to get the best >of both worlds. Plus culling some drones may help with mites.

It appears the bees will only raise a certain amount of drones regardless of the amount of drone comb available. In my tbh the majority of the drones were raised just before swarming when the drone sized comb was mostly empty. After swarming, the bees quickly filled most of the drone comb with honey and capped it over in the broodnest area.

As combs with larger cell size were constructed, later, toward the rear of the hive, the queen laid primarily worker brood toward the bottom edges of the comb. Drone sized and larger cells were seldom used for rearing drones even though it was open and available there.

I'm convinced that the structure of the broodnest is very important. I don't know what effect expanding, culling, etc would have on it's function. And I think it may be harder to get the bees to change it if they have a choice. They may just draw out new comb approximating what was cut out.

A sure way to change the structure would be to rotate or insert drawn comb into the broodnest. 

I will be trying out some management ideas this spring also.

>I know I want 2 TBHs finished...


It will be great reading about your tbh observations and experiences. Take lots of pictures and share the results. I'm sure the tbh beekeeping has lots of surprises left :> )

As our knowlege of the bees increases, I think a few people won't be content as 'beehavers' or even as master beekeepers but will become the best stewards of their bees.

Best Regards
Dennis


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## Hillbillynursery

Dennis,

I did not mean your numbers are/were off. By percentage comb 7 was out of proportion. When you figure comb 7 in with your total for the hive it increases the amount of large cell and drone comb. I to am of the believe the hive will not make more drones than it needs. I do understand why you did not cut it or remove it as the hive was for research. It was more of hypothedical question. 

My main reason for TBHs is the cost of hives. Since your writing of such detail and the others words about their hives I see no reason that I can not run more hives than I can afford to buy. You and others have stated that TBHs tend to fill the upper part of the combs once they get to the main flow. I am thinking supering a TBH so that once the flow hits the bees can move the honey up. The first one I build will be the one with holes(on each end) in the TB for supering. I am also thinking I will place TBs in between drawn TBs to get straighter comb but this is a wait and see. I am thinking of making 2 TB with plastic foundation to place on each side of new topbars to get straight combs if I have a problem with cross comb. 

I am full of ideas. I have to much time on my hands since I can not work. I have contacted someone to help me with a patent for a mechanic helping tool. I got the idea while trying to do a tune up on my full size van(I sure could not pay what the mechanic asked and I have rebuilt several engines). Between my wife, my brother, and myself we got 5 of 8 spark plugs changed and only 4 of the plug wires done.


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## BWrangler

Hi Hillbillynursery,

I didn't take any offense to your post. I just wanted to be sure that others understood the basis for the results. I would have thought that the results of my little tbh test and the measurements of bee size versus cell size would have generated more dialog, especially with small cell beekeepers. But there's been hardly a yawn. I appreciate your questions/observations.

I'm hoping that my observations will promote similiar kinds of observations by others. Then there will be lots of numbers to talk about. Hope you've got your pencil and camera ready for next season.

I've got a garage full of standard beekeeping/extracting equipment(sale next season). If I had it to do all over again, I would have used tbhs instead, even though they are more sensitive(comb failures) and somewhat less productive. I think the sensitivies will be worked out and production is easy to increase by adding more tbhs.

I've found them ideal for my purposes even though or maybe even because much about their management is pretty experimental. What a way to keep the mind active, designing and developing equipment and management that is geared toward what the bees naturally do.

I'll bet you will build the best tbh ever and have much to share as the season progresses.

Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

My only comment is that I observed similar results. The bees were not as consistent in any way I expected, but actually built some worker brood smaller than I expected and some larger. The orentation was also a bit confusing. I've been considering how to measure orientation and I think it needs to be both how the "Y" is in the bottom of some cells in the center, but more so how the cells make a line on the comb. In other words, if you think of a sheet of foundation being horizontal and you draw a line under a row of cells the line is horizontal. If you turn that foundation 90 degrees the line is vertical. Now if you draw a line on any given comb and measure the angle in relation to the top bar you have the angle of the cells. This may be a more accurate way to measure orientation, since just the "Y" in the bottom of the cell is too short to measure accurately and it varies too much from cell to cell. Measuring a line averages things out, like measuring cell size across ten cells averages things out.
http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/ian/comb.htm 

Another thing that has been mentioned by another top bar hive person is that the spacing between the combs affects the size of the cells. I want to do some experiments where the bees don't have any guidlines and see how they space them and what size the cells are on what spacing. I think there is a relationship and we may affect the outcome by the spacing on our frames or top bars.
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/agriculture/entomology/beekeeping/general/management/top_bar_faqs/top_bar_hive_lore.txt 

"The topbar that has worked best for me is 1 3/8 inches in width.
I've used ones that are 1 1/2". The bees were able to center their combs
on these bars but a larger than average proportion of the comb was built
as drone comb. This size of comb promotes the production of an excess of
drones and the honey stored in these type combs is rarely capped. From
1 1/2" I gradually reduced the bar size each season. 1 7/16" bars worked
pretty well. The bees were successful in centering combs on those bars
but still there occurred too much drone comb in the overall hive. I
suggest that topbars be 1 3/8" in width unless this dimension causes the
bees some problems."


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## BWrangler

Hi Michael,

I will go back and take a look at comb orientation as you have suggested. Is it different on each side of the comb? Now, I wish I had shot both sides of each comb! 

A good experiment would be to take Joe Waggles feral hive picture and plot some arrows on it showing comb orientation.

Regards
Dennis


[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited December 19, 2003).]


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## Hillbillynursery

WE DID IT!!!!!!!!!

We passed the perma comb thread. I for one find TBHs to have many more things going for them than PC. That is not to say in the near future I will not try it as it will save the bees alot of work from making all that wax. Since TBHivers have not said much about the bees attatching comb to the bottom of the hive PC may work great to supper the TBH if that experiment works like I hope it does. One thing about it if that hive works it will give us the best of both ways of beekeeping. The broodnest will be all natural and the honey combs in frames for extracting. I think that not being able to extract honey from TBHs is one of the reasons they are looked down apon as unexceptable for modern beekeeping.


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## Michael Bush

>We passed the perma comb thread. I for one find TBHs to have many more things going for them than PC.

It's apples and oranges. PC is impervious to SHB and wax moths and that's enough to make it a dream. Then you add that the bees don't have to build it and I can wax coat it and make a permanant small cell brood nest...

>That is not to say in the near future I will not try it as it will save the bees alot of work from making all that wax.

Especially when you're establishing a new hive. It's a source of already made drawn cobm.

>Since TBHivers have not said much about the bees attatching comb to the bottom of the hive PC may work great to supper the TBH

If you want extracted honey. I'm going to try a medium depth standard width 3 box long TBH and if that works you could use PC anywhere in it you want and Top bars anywhere you want.

>if that experiment works like I hope it does. One thing about it if that hive works it will give us the best of both ways of beekeeping. The broodnest will be all natural and the honey combs in frames for extracting. I think that not being able to extract honey from TBHs is one of the reasons they are looked down apon as unexceptable for modern beekeeping.

Since I have a much larger market for comb honey, especialy natural (no chemicals in the hive) comb honey, I have not seen this as any disadvantage. Since there is also a market for clean wax, I don't see why it's a big loss to scrap the wax and strain the honey if I want extracted honey.


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## Kansas Volunteer

Perhaps it's because it's still somewhat early, and the coffee hasn't kicked-in, but after re-reading some of this discussion of top bar hives, my head is spinning a bit.

Would someone weigh for me the advantages and disadvantages, as you see them, of the starkly simple Kenyan tbh, with a solid bottom, nothing but a trough, and the more complex tbh, with a slattted and/or wire botttom.

Also, I'd really appreciate some detailed views on the need for sloping the sides, and the angle of the slope. I'm finding everything from verticle sides, as in the Tanzanian tbh, to 30-degree angles, measured off the verticle, or 60-degree slopes measured up from the horizontal.

Getting into tbh is proving to be extremely interesting to me. The more answers I find, the more questions I have. I LOVE IT!

David S.


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## Michael Bush

>Would someone weigh for me the advantages and disadvantages, as you see them, of the starkly simple Kenyan tbh, with a solid bottom, nothing but a trough, and the more complex tbh, with a slattted and/or wire botttom.

In some ways this is like discussing the advantages of a compound bow with sights over a simple long bow. Part of the atrraction of a bow, to me, is it's simplicity, so why complicate it? But on the other hand, the concept of a slatted rack is to help the bees with ventilation and provide cluster space for those "bee beards" you see on the front of hives in the summer. It helps cut down on swarming. Is it worth doing? Maybe, but I'm still trying to work out a workable TBH so I'm not ready to spend the effort to try to build something that complicated. The SBB will help with the mite drop, but again, I'm trying to work out the details and am worried that that contributed to my last failure. IMPOV the atrraction of a TBH is that it is simple and easy to make. If I make it complicated to make, there are more advantages to making a horizontal hive with frames instead.

>Also, I'd really appreciate some detailed views on the need for sloping the sides, and the angle of the slope. I'm finding everything from verticle sides, as in the Tanzanian tbh, to 30-degree angles, measured off the verticle, or 60-degree slopes measured up from the horizontal.

I tried the vertical sides and am going to try them again on the theory that if the combs aren't too deep and therefore too heavy they may work. I haven't seen a lot more attachments with vertical sides, but I think the structural integrity of the comb is the issure. Sloped sides more closely resemble the shape of natural comb. Most people seem to be using about half of a 45 degree angle which is about 22 degrees or so off of vertical. This would be 112 degrees from horizontal. The one I just built and the one I built 30 years ago are both 22 degrees. I don't know if this is the best angle, just that it approximates natural comb.

>Getting into tbh is proving to be extremely interesting to me. The more answers I find, the more questions I have. I LOVE IT!

That's what I've found. Lots of questions. I seem to find a lot of general info as if the dimensions don't matter that much, but I think the dimensions are critical, even if they aren't critical down to a 1/16 of an inch, they are critical when we are talking about inches. I would like more successful TBH beekeepers to share their hive dimensions and entrances and locations (shade sun etc). I've had more failures than successes so far.


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

The December issue of Bee Culture has an interesting article on 'Exposed Honey Bee Nests'. On page 41 is a picture of 'an abandoned exposed Africanized bee nest in Arizona'.

The size, shape and orientation of the comb are interesting. The combs are long and without any obvious burr comb or support, at least on the outside edges.

I'll bet we will get this comb failure thing worked out.

Regards
Dennis


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## Kansas Volunteer

I've just seen what will be the best top bar hive site on the web. (NO offence, BWrangler.) David McDonald of NM sent tme a link to a site he is building:
http://home.att.net/~mcdonald/bees/hive/ 

How about some discussion of his hives?

I'm thinking I'll go ahead and build two or three tbh of different designs and test them side-by-side this season. I had wanted only one, but this is getting to be too interesting.

So, I gues my new question for all the tbh fans is: What features would you like to see tested, or compared with other features? 

David S.


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## Kansas Volunteer

John (jlk) how about telling us more about your hive? I'd appreciate all the details you can give -- measurements etc. What have you learned from managing your hive for three years?

David S.


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## Michael Bush

>How about some discussion of his hives?
They look ok. I think a 7/8" gap for the bottom entrance is too big. The slope is only 13 degrees off of 90. I don't know how that would work it's one of those things I'm still trying to work out.

>I'm thinking I'll go ahead and build two or three tbh of different designs and test them side-by-side this season. I had wanted only one, but this is getting to be too interesting.

I know what you mean.

>So, I gues my new question for all the tbh fans is: What features would you like to see tested, or compared with other features? 

The slope issue is one that I think we should experiment on. Satterfield says it doesn't matter if there is any slope, but I think a more natural comb shape may help with comb collapse. My other experiment for a straight sided is to make the comb less deep and see how that affects it.

Another issue is ventilation. Does an open SBB or too much ventilation in general add to comb failure or help with it?

What length bar is just short enough to help with comb failure but just long enough to allow a good size comb?


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## BWrangler

Hi David and Everyone,

Thanks for the link to the new top bar site. I have bookmarked it and will be back again.

Web sites are easy to build and can be put on one of the free web servers. Newer wordprocessing software can easily be used to publish a document to the web and digital photography is cheap for web quality shots.
I've found the new wordperfect(no kidding)is easiest to use with no html translation errors.

I hope everyone experimenting with tbhs would build a tbh web page.

I know that the next one will be the best one, yet. :> )

Right now, I am really tossed about next seasons plans. My desire is to get into about a half dozen tbhs and sell my traditional equipment. But a few small cell beekeeping loose ends keep me tangled up eith standard equipment, maybe for a couple of more years. I am sure tempted to just cut those projects loose and migrate to tbhs.

Best Regards
Dennis


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## Kansas Volunteer

BWrangler, I like David McDonalds new site because there is so much information packed into it, and he's only just begun working on it. I'm a bliever in one picture being worth a thousand words, and his pictures certainly work in that way. There's also enough description to fill in the blanks. I expect as he progresses, it ought ot be quite a valuable site for folks getting interested in tbh.

I'm going to have to look into alternative site building software, I guess, I only know how to do it in html, and don't practice with that much at all.

I guess a lot of us are interested in answering some questions about tbh. It will be tough for any one of us to do controled experiements with all the variables that are being discussed. How about a list of variables that really needed to be tested, from you guys that have been at it for a while, and maybe we can set up some experiments, and give them a try this coming season.

I had originally wanted only one tbh, as I haven't had bees for a while, and thought it would make an interesting way to get back into beekeeping, but I've got the time and resources to keep more. If I build tbh with scrap material, and keep the cost down, I could probably go with four to six packages of new bees. If I got all the same kind of bees, form the same source, that variable would be fairly well under control, and then hive variables could be studied closer.

What do y'all think?

David S.


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## dmcdonald

Thanks for the encouragement about the site; I plan to add information within the next several weeks about another top-bar hive style that's used here in NM, used on a fairly large scale. It's got longer bars, and uses airspace between the bars and the roof, rather than insulation. I'll let you know as I add more to the site.

About entrances and ventilation: the use of a 7/8" entrance may be based on the assumption that a movable back board is always being used, and that therefore the (roughly) 10" x 7/8" front entrance is the only source of ventilation. But the way I'm using these hives, without the back board, there's likely considerably more airflow, because of the open space at the back. I am, BTW, using entrance reducers through the winter. 

I have one hive, with a much smaller entrance, and closable round holes above that. In that hive, I'll be able to reduce the airflow considerably, if necessary.

But here's my thinking about ventilation. I keep reading about the importance of ventilation, about how a poorly ventilated hive is rough on the bees, because of the additional work they have to do to keep it cool in summer, and because of their need to control humidity in the hive. And, when I read somewhere that during winter the bees don't heat the hive, just themselves, and that they continue to need ventilation in the winter, it seemed to me better to err on the side of too much, rather than too little, ventilation. Seems the bees can handle bitter cold, even a slight breeze moving through the hive, but can't handle living in a stuffy space. 

Tim Haarmann (my main local resource on these hives) told me not to bother with the back board (at least in this climate), and he also didn't seem very concerned about whether an entrance reducer is used in winter. I'll ask him what his general approach to ventilation is.

But I'm very new to all this, so this is all surmise and second-hand impressions. Any thoughts? 

Thanks,
David McDonald


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## Michael Bush

My thought on the 7/8" is that it's hard to defend. I think we are all still working out the issues of ventilation in a top bar hive. With frames it doesn't seem as critical because you seldom (but not never) have combs collapsing in a framed hive.


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## BWrangler

Hello Everyone,

That 'cleat' on top of top bar hive ends is an elegant solution. It's much more flexible than my design and can easily be changed for different top bar widths and thicknesses. It also allows me optimize the hive volume at very shallow angles. Thanks for sharing.

My tbh was intended as a way to understand some of the inconsistencies I've experienced with my small cell sized beekeeping. I expected to keep it around as a curiosity. But I planned to focus all of my attention on my small cell hives. The 'confessions' were started from that perspective and are probably not a very interesting read for anyone without small cell sized beekeepering experience. 

So, it's ok to skip the text and look at the pictures if they prove interesting. :> ) And pictures are surely worth thousands of words.

So I challenge everyone to take those pictures and share them on the web.I am willing to help anyone post them if they don't have a scanner or digital camera. 

By the end of the little experiment, my focus had changed from small cell to top bar hive beekeeping. I'm hooked on them. They can't be beat for keeping bees biologically.

I'm looking forward to reading about everyones experiences and management, here as well as on the web.

Regards
Dennis


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

I'm going to try and model my tbhs ventilation on the parameters that are optimum for swarm acceptance. Further modifications may be necessary but it's a starting point.

Optimum conditions are an entrance located toward the bottom of the cavity. Tom Seeley and the Cornell folks indicate it shouldn't be any wider than about 4cm and occupy about 15 square centimeters. No upper ventilation, holes or light should occur toward the top of the cavity. 

Just some thoughts
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

>Optimum conditions are an entrance located toward the bottom of the cavity.

Yes, but the hive is usually several feet off the ground. I think a bottom entrance that is a few inches from the ground, as it is in most beehives, would not be a choice the bees would prefer. Between mice and skunks it's much better to have it further from the ground. Also, "toward the bottom of the cavity" from my experience with hives in trees, is still between a foot and a couple of feet from the bottom of the hollow space, but 2/3 of the way down or so from the top. There is usually a foot of detritis in the bottom of an old tree hive.

>Tom Seeley and the Cornell folks indicate it shouldn't be any wider than about 4cm and occupy about 15 square centimeters.

Seems like most of the tree ones are a vertical crack in the tree. My experiece would be that they are no wider than 4cm but usually closer to 2 or 3 cm and often 10 cm long.

>No upper ventilation, holes or light should occur toward the top of the cavity. 

I think that is mostly because they are looking for something that won't get rained on, but perhaps it also has to do with ventilation.

Where is all of this useful information? Is it on the web?


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## BWrangler

Hi Michael,

Most of the work was done at Cornell University. Roger Morse and Tom Seeley have worked with bee intelligence and have defined some of the optimum conditions of cavity selection in the process.

They have been reported in the University publications, Tom Seeleys book 'Wisdom of the Hive' and recounted by others in the journals. Lately, Richard Taylor elaborated on them in last years Bee Culture. I think Mark Winstons book also refers to them. That may be the easiest place to get the information in print.

Just about everyone uses them as a reference when discussing cavity selection and nest architecture.

Some of the other parameters concern colony height, wind protection, sun exposure and shade. But these are affected more by a tbhs location than its design.

Regards
Dennis
Thinking I will compromise on the optimum height requirements :> )


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## txbeeguy

I have a very slight/easy modification I plan for my TBH this year. I'm planning to install a new bottom board. For those of you who have seen the photos on my yahoo profile, you know that my 'bottom board' is removable. My current bottom board is in place now (during the winter). I'm planning on replacing it with a wider bottom board. This will have the 'net effect' of reducing the depth of the interior comb building space. Since I too, was one of the comb failure guys last summer, I figured I would limit the depth to which they bees can draw out the comb. By making the bottom board wider, it "raises" the floor and will reduce the distance between the "floor" of the hive and the top bars. The only other thing I will be doing is placing the hive in an area that starts to get shade around 3 p.m. 
[Obviously, I going back to having a bottom board on year 'round rather than allowing the bees direct access to the screened bottom] - This is all in an attempt to eliminate any further comb failure.
--
I did not use my front entrance reducer this winter and I have noted the bees have reduced the entrance by their use of propolis.


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## Hillbillynursery

I was drawing out my plan for my TBH. A light bulb came on in my head. The question was how am I going to make splits from my standard hives. I am going to make a bar the length of the lang frame. I am going to center and screw my TBH length bar to it with a starter strip. This way my TBHs will have a good start. Any thoughts?


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## Michael Bush

That was my thinking last year and after all my combs collapses I decided the comb was too long. Maybe the comb being too long was not the cause, but that is my current theory. Also, most of the successful TBH's I've seen seem to have bars of about 15 to 16".

You could build a frame that actually fits the slope (if you have one) of your TBH and just tie some brood in like when taking feral bees. Just cut the comb to fit and tie it in with string.


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## Hillbillynursery

My total width is going to be the narrow side of a lang(16 inches). I am using 2 X 12s with slope cut to make 22.5 slope and to level the top which will bring it down close to 10 inches deep. The internal comb will be less than 13 inches. My only frames have plastic foundation so it would be real hard to cut them down. My thought was that 3 screws across the top of the long bar to hold the shorter bar would make it easy to pull out and place it in the TBH then use my trusty cordless drill to remove the screws and long bar. The only draw back I saw was I might have to trim some of the drawn comb off if the draw it to long.


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## dmcdonald

FWIW, on the topic of comb failure--I got in touch with Marty Hardison, who's been working with TBH for more than 20 years. He says it's absolutely imperative that there be either insulation or air space in the hive lid, to prevent this from happening. Maybe the dimensions of hive--bar length, depth of hive, etc., have a part in this too, but it seems to me that insulation (or the equivalent) should be present as a basic element of the design. Unless you never have hot days and strong sunshine, as we do here. The insulation may also affect wintering--I don't know.

I use 1" rigid foam insulation, but another beekeeper here just has the corrugated metal sit an inch or two above the bars, and this airspace is open on 2 sides. The roof is minimal, in the sense that it's nothing more than a piece of metal, which is somehow strapped on, and held away from the bars by wood spacers at each end of he hive. I intend to go measure and photograph these hives and post pictures online, as soon as I have the chance.


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## Michael Bush

>FWIW, on the topic of comb failure--I got in touch with Marty Hardison, who's been working with TBH for more than 20 years. He says it's absolutely imperative that there be either insulation or air space in the hive lid, to prevent this from happening.

It makes sense, especially if it's in the sun. Mine was in the shade, but maybe it makes a difference. Also my bars were thin, so the wood didn't add much insulation.


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

Tom, a tbh beekeeper in Aurora Co., has said the same thing about insulation or air space above the top bars. He raises the cover with a couple of pieces of lumber during the summer and avoids working his hive during the hottest days.

Regards
Dennis


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## beekeeper28

I went and looked at Satterfield's site agian after ready the last few post and most of his photos show metal roofing bent in a V shape and held on with cords. It looks like his have an "attic" space wich would allow upper ventalation.


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## beekeeper28

I checked Mr. Satterfield's site again after reading the last few post. Most of the photos on his site have a metal covering bent in a V shape wich allows for and "attic" space above the top bars. This would allow for upper ventalation. 

Sorry for the double post. The other day it was not showing that my post was received. i have tried to delete the double post but can't so forum leader feel free to delete the double. 

[This message has been edited by beekeeper28 (edited January 05, 2004).]


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## txbeeguy

Ahh, adding a couple inches of air spacing between the top bars and cover would be a very easy little mod for my TBH - so I'll definitely give that a shot too. Surly by doing this and raising the floor level and putting the hive in some shade, I'll be able to prevent comb failure this year!


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

Kansas Volunteers comments got me to thinking. My web page was written from the perspective of a small cell beekeeper fiddling with a top bar hive.

That was the case before my top bar hive experience. But my perspective has since changed to that of a top bar hive beekeeper fiddling with small cell. :> )

I have revised my web pages to reflect the change. So that hopefully anyone only interest in tbhs can skip the small cell stuff.

Regards
Dennis http://bwrangler.litarium.com/


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## Kansas Volunteer

BWrangler, I've only had a few moments to look at your site. WOW! I'm looking forward to studying it.

I've had to put beehives on the side track for a while, but should get back to it before spring. I'm really looking forward to messing with top bar hives.


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## Michael Bush

Back on the subject of insulation on the top. My first top bar hive, which I only used for a short time as an experiment, had 2 x 2s for top bars. I cut a 15 degree angle on the bottom of the bar for a centering device and rubbed the peak with beeswax.

Anyway, it occurs to me the recent TBH that had the comb failure had 3/8" thick bars as opposed to 1 1/2" (2 x 2). The 2 x2s were four times as much insulation (and four times as thick). The 3/8" bars seemed strong enough to support the comb, but I wonder if the 2 x 2 bars were better insulated and maybe the heat penetrating to the attchment of the comb is part of the problem. Of course I did also have a 3/4" lid on top of the bars in both the old hive and the new hive.

This, of course, is mentioned because of all of your references to "attic space" and insulation on the top.


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## BWrangler

Hi Michael and Everyone,

My top bar hive had a sloped roof which provided about a 5" high attic in the middle. It wasn't insulated. My top bars were 3/4" thick but had a 1/4" rabbit on the ends to keep them center. Structurally they were only 1/2" thick.

I have constructed new bars for my hive that will be 1" thick, 3/4" structurally and I will insulate the attic space in the lid.

For my new top bar hive, I had planned to go with the 1" top bars. I think I will increase that thickness per your experience.

The heat was a primary factor for weakening my comb and its failure. But the shape of the failure indicated that some tension was envolved. None of the combs failed at the intersection of the comb and the topbar. A reverse catenary shaped tear left several inches of comb along the top bar and down the side edges of the comb.

The only thing I can think of that would generate that tension would be a downward flex in the top bar. It might not take much if the wax was hot and fragile.

Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

>The only thing I can think of that would generate that tension would be a downward flex in the top bar. It might not take much if the wax was hot and fragile.

I guess I would have thought if it was warm it would just stretch a bit, but perhaps the stress of a flex in the top bar contributed.

That was partly why I decided to go with the 3/4" bars, but also, it was because I wasn't going to try to put them in a Langstroth box anymore, so I thought it was just as easy to cut them from 3/4" stock.

I went with the 3/8" on the previous model so I could put the top bars in a Langsroth box and leave a 1/4" air space above the bars to keep them cooler and so the bees could patrol the area. I've had ants move into spaces less than 1/4"


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## Michael Bush

I was rereading Bwrangler's web site. I hadn't thought how to articulate it, because it's a bit confusing to try to say because it is counterintuitive and counter to "modern beekeeping, but as he has observed I've noticed that bees when left to themselves WITHOUT foundation build combs very quickly. When given drawn comb they do very well also. But they do not build foundation as quickly or redily as they build their own comb.

I am concluding more and more than foundation is EVIL! The bees don't like it, don't want to draw it. I don't think the bees dislike the plastic foundation because it's plastic. I think they accept it less because they can't rework it. The bees don't like any foundation that much because it's not what they wanted to build as far as size and orientation. There is much more of a feeling that they know what they are doing and are happy with it when they build it from scratch. There is much more of a tentative attitude when the cells are layed out for them.

I think we need to start a new movement. There are "conventional" beekeepers using large cell foundation and "small cell" beekeepers using small cell foundation. I think we need to start a "natural cell size" movement.

I'm experimenting with 45 degree slopes on the bottom of my top bars in both TBH and in standard frames. I just run the top bar through the table saw and slope it and then put a blank starter strip in. I also am cutting a bottom bar that is 45 degree angled. On Dadant deep frames I'm putting a 1/2" square piece in the middle as a diamond (with a point up and and a point down).

I've been doing just starter strips for years, and blank starter strips for a year now. I did sloped top bars 30 years ago but only did a 15 degree angle because that's what the cells are angled. I want to see how the 45 degree works. I also hadn't tried it on the bottom bar. When doing frames with starter strips I've had to treat them like top bars until they were attached on the sides and bottom. But the angle on the bottom helps get them to attach the comb there.

Here is some commercial version of what I'm trying to do now. But he doesn't have them for sale anymore.







http://www.charlesmartinsimon.com/pictures.htm 


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited January 13, 2004).]


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## Kansas Volunteer

I've been planning on making the top bars of my hive fairly thick, and cutting a 45-degree angle on the underside, as Michael is discussing. In most of what I've read, there are mentions of rubbing bees wax along the ridge of the top bar to encourage the bees to build straight comb.

I'm wondering how much wax to apply. Maybe I'm just trying to out-smart the bees, but it seems if the wax were applied, say 1/2-inch, on either side of the apex, perhaps the bees would be encouraged to build a row or two of cells upward, and thereby reinforcing the connection of the comb to the top bar.

Does that make sense?

David S.


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## Michael Bush

When I've done it I just rubbed it on the peak because that's where I wanted them to build. It worked fine and I didn't have any comb failures from it. Of course you always have to handle combs carefully no matter what. I suppose you could melt some wax and dip the peak in as far as you wanted the wax to go.


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## Michael Bush

The more I think about it, I think it's best just to rub a little on the peak, for bait, but let them build the attachments. The bees reinforce the attachments with a wax and propolis mixture that is probably a stronger bond than dipping it in melted wax. I think the bees will take care of the stregnth of it. Probably more so without a starter strip, which they would probably assume was already attached adequately by someone else.


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## Oxankle

I am in the process of making my first TBH. It will be straight sided, Langstroth frame wide, 1&3/8 x 7/8 bars, 32 bars long. 

I have some experience with tin roofs and heat, so it will be painted white, the cover will be domed and open ended with a foil backed insulating panel over the frames. It will be placed under a deciduous tree for afternoon, not morning, shade and will face East. It will have an entrance hole 1 & 1/4 in dia in front, three side entrances 1" in diameter and two vents above the three side entrances. None of the side openings will be uncovered until bees are working past them in the hive and they will be closed in winter except for the vent nearest the front. The bees will be allowed to propolize that as they wish once it is opened the first time.

Top bars will have a wax-covered spline inserted in a center groove. I felt that the spline was less trouble and easier than trying to cut and fit foundation strips. The spline can be "painted" with hot wax after it is fastened in the top bar. 

Question: Anyone have experience with these splined top bars? I can find only one reference to them here. 
Ox



------------------
Oxankle


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## Michael Bush

>I am in the process of making my first TBH. It will be straight sided, Langstroth frame wide, 1&3/8 x 7/8 bars, 32 bars long. 

I built mine 22 bars long and exactly that width with straight sides. All the combs failed.

>I have some experience with tin roofs and heat, so it will be painted white, the cover will be domed and open ended with a foil backed insulating panel over the frames. It will be placed under a deciduous tree for afternoon, not morning, shade and will face East.

Mine was in the shade and had two migratory covers and a 3/8" gap between the top bars and the lids.

>It will have an entrance hole 1 & 1/4 in dia in front, three side entrances 1" in diameter and two vents above the three side entrances. None of the side openings will be uncovered until bees are working past them in the hive and they will be closed in winter except for the vent nearest the front.

Why the side entrances?

>Top bars will have a wax-covered spline inserted in a center groove. I felt that the spline was less trouble and easier than trying to cut and fit foundation strips. The spline can be "painted" with hot wax after it is fastened in the top bar. 

I just put in blank wax strips and they did fine as far as them not falling out and the bees following them for the most part. They wandered off a little toward the front on the ends.

>Question: Anyone have experience with these splined top bars? I can find only one reference to them here. 

Not me. I've only done an angled top bar, which worked well and a groove with a strip waxed in it.


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## dmcdonald

I'm using the spline approach, and it seems to work well. The only advice I'd give is to avoid having it protrude more than 1/2 inch from the bar--I had some strange comb build on bars with too much protruding wood, and once I cut all the ridges down to 1/2 inch the problem seemed to stop.


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## Oxankle

Thanks for the comments, guys.

I saw the caution about having the splines protrude too far, so I am cutting splines that will hang down only about 3/8 inch and which will leave only a beespace at either end of the top bar. 

I also saw the bit about collapsing combs. I am not sure how that will work out. The main honey flow here is late April to mid June, so it will miss most of the heat. I made the top bars 7/8 thick and will insulate. If I have any comb failure I will consider reducing hive depth, an easy modification. 

As to the side entrances and vents, I am going on my observations. 

Walter Kelley always advocated raising the top and allowing ventilatin thru the inner cover in summer. I usually did this in July and August and found that the bees seemed to appreciate it. I also used vents just above the hand-holds in upper supers and found that the bees used these as vents and as short-cuts to the comb they were working on. 

From this I concluded that a single front entrance to a long hive was going to be inadequate once the hive was crowded and the bees were evaporating nectar. I believe that a drilled vent just below the top bars is preferable to cut top bars for a vent, and a drilled entrace close to the bees working area is an advantage. A permanent swinging closure on a screw permits management at each opening. 

Now tell me what is the simplest stand to make, and how high? This will have to be a permanent installation--I am not going to move a hive that weighs over 200 pounds when full. 
Ox


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## Michael Bush

I did the top bars in a double wide Lanstroth deep box (32 1/2" x 19 7/8") on a screened botom board. After comb failures I decided it was too wide, too deep and had too much ventilation.

Most of the successful TBH seem to be about 15 to 16 inches wide and sloped sides.

I don't like side entrances because it's more gaurd bees in more directions. If you want more ventilation down the side, why not just put more entrances on the SAME side and not on the end. That way the all face the same direction. Of course if it's an issue of ventialtion you could do a screened on on the back and an open one on the front. They will, of course propolize the screened one, but you could replace the screen or clean it from time to time. Pull it off and put it in the freezer and it will clean pretty easily.


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## Oxankle

Michael;
My theory is that once you give your bees a vent, let them manage it any way they want. 

In the past when I have used top vents in supers the bees would propolize them to the size they wanted. When I used double hive bodies they would leave no more than a pencil hole in winter, but open it wide in summer. When they opened that vent wide is when I would lift the top and prop it up a bit. 

As for the entrances, I gather from posts here that the front entrance is favored. I thought I would follow that design, but have provision for auxiliary entrances and vents TO BE OPENED ONLY WHEN THE HIVE WAS CROWDED AND BEES WERE WORKING IN THE AREA WHERE THE AUXILIARY ENTRANCES WERE.

I'm sure that you have seen beekeepers who moved a super back enough that the bees could come and go thru the rabbet. If you have used top vents you have also noticed that the bees will come and go thru them if they are working in that super. 

One thing about this; I am flexible. If it appears that some of these openings are not needed or are a handicap, I can close them off. 

I am still pondering the comb collapse. I have seen combs in the walls of buildings that were built at an angle in the opening. Some of these were 30 inches deep and l6 inches wide. I can only conclude that they were braced against the building walls. 
Ox


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## Michael Bush

>One thing about this; I am flexible. If it appears that some of these openings are not needed or are a handicap, I can close them off. 

I've thought about doing all the openings along the side. That still means they are only guarding one direction but can ventilate anywhere along the side. The one I just build I'm not putting any entrances in. I'm just leaving the front bar back 3/8" to make the entrance at the front. I could leave the back bar out to make one at the back. We'll see how it goes. I can always drill a hole somwhere.

>I am still pondering the comb collapse. I have seen combs in the walls of buildings that were built at an angle in the opening. Some of these were 30 inches deep and l6 inches wide. I can only conclude that they were braced against the building walls. 

I have too and they were braced on the sides. If you build a vertical walled hive they will attched the sides also. Not badly but they will attach them and you will break those to work the hive. So the comb in a top bar hive has to be more self sustaining than comb in a wall or a tree because of that.


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## Kansas Volunteer

I don't know why I just now remembered this, after all the discussion about ventilation, but many years ago I read a little book about convential bee keeping in the tropics, and one point made in the text was about the need for extra ventilation for the hives. The methode advocated was to use a hive cover much deeper than normal, forming an attic above the hive. Bees were not allowed access to the attic and a large vent hole was drilled to allow air movement. This, in effect, is basically what's been discussed here recently in connection with prevention of comb breakage. Some of the tbh with peaked roofs essentially fit this description of attic space and vent. Has all the comb failure been in flat-top hives without much ventilation, or airspace above the hive?


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## Michael Bush

>Has all the comb failure been in flat-top hives without much ventilation, or airspace above the hive?

Mine was in a Langstroth box with a 3/8" bee space between the tops of the bars and the lid and the bees had access to it from the gap at the front and back bars. The hive was also in the shade. And it had a full open screened bottom board.

[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited January 20, 2004).]


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## Scot Mc Pherson

Hey Guys, its been a long time since i have been here. I think my last post was in September. A lot of "life" getting in the way. Have had lots of changes in my life's situation but things are starting to settle down and I think I shall be returning for the long haul again.

Michael Bush, are you prepared to sell bees this spring and are you already sold out?

The experiments will be beginning this spring as I discussed last spring/summer. I hope to have good luck with my designs that I have put together. Did anyone ever put together a maintained TBH FAQ like we were going to?

Anyway good to see everyone. USBWrangler, was it you that was going to be moving to my area? I would still be very intersted in getting together with you on a project or few.


Its going to take me a while to catch up on all the new posts in this thread...there are 5 new pages .. oy.

Scot Mc Pherson

------------------
-- 
Scot Mc Pherson
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me

[This message has been edited by Scot Mc Pherson (edited January 20, 2004).]


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## Michael Bush

>Michael Bush, are you prepared to sell bees this spring and are you already sold out?

I have some saved for you. Not that I don't want you business, but I know you really wanted a package of small cell bees and Buckey is selling packages of 4.9mm Carniolan bees at the same price as their regular ones. If you decide to do that instead, I understand, but please let me know one way or the other.

>Did anyone ever put together a maintained TBH FAQ like we were going to?

I'm sure no one has. We don't seem to hear a lot from people with successful ones, and that's a bit distressing. I'd love to hear more about the length of the bar, depth of comb and ventilation aspects of the people with successful TBHs.


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## Scot Mc Pherson

Thanx for the news and the input about Buckey's Bees, though because I already told you I wanted yours and because we have been "friends" for at least 1 yr (minus my absense), I really would like to give you the opportunity to profit at least a little because of your helpful hand here. I am going to put together 3 hives, of various design based on a standard factor (for interchangeabilities sake).

I remember we had some private mailing about price and how you were going to supply the bees, but I don't recall whether you were going to supply package bees. Though something near the price of $150 per seems to stick in my mind.

I think the reason why TBHs have been a failure and only spotty success has been seen is because it takes a whole year to run a test cycle. If one wants to try a new design one must wait until the next year (or work hard at keeping a late swarm alive). I think this year after all of our collective experiences we will fair better, having learned from our collective past mistakes. I wonder if it would be beneficial to put together that FAQ/Intro to TBHs just to outline what we have learned so far and any ideas we might have for the coming year. Care to work on this together? I still have all that material I worked on, I just need to disceminate in publishable/digestible form.

------------------
-- 
Scot Mc Pherson
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me


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## Michael Bush

>I remember we had some private mailing about price and how you were going to supply the bees, but I don't recall whether you were going to supply package bees. Though something near the price of $150 per seems to stick in my mind.

That was for nucs. I really can't do packages being this far North. And I really will understand if you get the Buckeys instead. I can't compete on price with a big producer and you need packages for your TBH.

>I think the reason why TBHs have been a failure and only spotty success has been seen is because it takes a whole year to run a test cycle. If one wants to try a new design one must wait until the next year (or work hard at keeping a late swarm alive).

True, but if TBH's are that workable shouldn't there be some successful people who could share what they are doing that is working?

>I think this year after all of our collective experiences we will fair better, having learned from our collective past mistakes.

So far, what I THINK (but haven't had time to test because of reasons you said above) that what I have done wrong a lot of people are planning on doing. I can't say for sure that a standard width bar was too wide or a standard deep box was too deep, but I know my comb collapsed and it seems reasonable to make the comb lighter or have more attachment to the top bar per weight by having less depth. I plan on testing both approaches, but I'm afraid we haven't really learned much until we have a success. You CAN learn a lot from failures sometimes, but so far we have no successes to compare them to and it's not clear what the cause of the failures was. The current theories are:

Perhaps a lack of insulation and or ventilation on the top caused the attachments at the bar themselves to get too hot.

Perhaps a comb that is sqaure on the corners causes more stress than a more natural shaped one. (vertical walls vs sloped walls)

Perhaps a comb that is too long puts too much stress on the comb. *I* think this simply because I see more successful ones out there with shorter bars (in the 15 to 16 inch range)

Perhaps a comb that is not as deep would put less weight on the attachment and therefore less prone to failure.

Perhaps TOO MUCH ventilation in the hive caused the temps inside to be higher than the bees could maintain if they could better control it and this caused failure.

I don't know that we will work this out as a group. We are all taking different directions and alot of us are repeating what others have decided were their mistakes. But, of course, none of us is SURE about what is or is not a mistake at this point in time.

>I wonder if it would be beneficial to put together that FAQ/Intro to TBHs just to outline what we have learned so far and any ideas we might have for the coming year. Care to work on this together? I still have all that material I worked on, I just need to disceminate in publishable/digestible form.

I'd be happy to donate what I THINK. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what we KNOW for sure.


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## Scot Mc Pherson

Alright. I have looked for buckey but I haven't found them.

You say they have carnolians, well maybe that's fine for the package, but I might still like to get some italian queens from you. I do have a predelection for italian bees, especially since my children will be playing in proxmity to the hives. Within 5 or 10ft that is, not directly playing with them.

I just want to do the research, I may still just get a few nucs from you, and develop some sort form of suspension system to suspend the nuc frames within the hive and have them removed later after the last of the brood hatches from them. Dunno.


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## Michael Bush

http://www.buckeyebee.com/price.html 

"You will be sold standard 5.4 mm bee packages, if you wish 4.9mm packages--please specify."


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## dmcdonald

I'm surprised, if there's a widespread feeling that TBH have generally been a failure, or that there aren't examples of TB hives which work. I know two beekeepers here who are running lots of top-bar hives, one 50 of them and the other 100, with good success, no significant comb failure problems that I know of. One of these beekeepers is using the design I show on my site, and I still expect to have photos of the other design soon.

I do think the shorter bar is helpful, for keeping the comb intact. It would seem that the longer the bar, and the deeper the hive, the greater the shearing forces on the comb would be. I don't have much direct experience myself at this point, but I feel that my mentors here and in Colorado have demonstrated, in practice, that they have a working hive design.

I'd be happy to help in compiling a new TBH FAQ, if that's any help, and posting it online. Since there are indeed many approaches, just as in Langstroth beekeeping, it seems the best method would be to offer the spectrum of sensible opinions on each topic. Perhaps James Satterfield's TBH FAQ (assuming he's agreeable) could be incorporated with newer stuff from the thoughtful beekeepers here and elsewhere.


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## Michael Bush

>I'm surprised, if there's a widespread feeling that TBH have generally been a failure, or that there aren't examples of TB hives which work.

There just don't seem to be any people in this discussion with successful ones. I know OF successful ones, but don't know exact measurments etc.

>I know two beekeepers here who are running lots of top-bar hives, one 50 of them and the other 100, with good success, no significant comb failure problems that I know of. One of these beekeepers is using the design I show on my site, and I still expect to have photos of the other design soon.

Always helpful to have pictures.

>I do think the shorter bar is helpful, for keeping the comb intact. It would seem that the longer the bar, and the deeper the hive, the greater the shearing forces on the comb would be.

That is my current theory.

>I don't have much direct experience myself at this point, but I feel that my mentors here and in Colorado have demonstrated, in practice, that they have a working hive design.

I'd like to see more specifics on a workig design.

>I'd be happy to help in compiling a new TBH FAQ, if that's any help, and posting it online.

Sounds like you have access to more info on successful hives.

>Since there are indeed many approaches, just as in Langstroth beekeeping, it seems the best method would be to offer the spectrum of sensible opinions on each topic. 

Unfortunately there are an infinite number of approaches in TBHs and most of them don't work. The ones that DO are the only ones of real interest, unless we know WHY the other ones fail.

>Perhaps James Satterfield's TBH FAQ (assuming he's agreeable) could be incorporated with newer stuff from the thoughtful beekeepers here and elsewhere. 

I found his TBH site interesting, but I wish he would give more specifics on what NOT to do and perhaps a more detailed ananlysis of what is working. There are a lot of statements that most measurements are not critical, but I think some of them are.


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## dmcdonald

OK. I've got a design which I claim works--again, only one season to go on, for myself, but indirect evidence that the design has worked well for more than 20 years for others--and I have access to the people who've been using it. 

So I'll do my best to get as much information as possible online about it. I had felt that the information I've put up is pretty exhaustive, with regard to dimensions and so on, but I do think it could be clearer, and it'd also be good to put up clear constructions diagrams. In addition to the precise details of the hive construction, more on management would be good. For me, that's mostly a matter of continuing to extract information from these local guys, and of course testing and clarifying it through my own experience.

Michael, let me know specifically which construction info you'd need more of. I'm not at this point able to re-draft the diagrams I have, to put them online, but short of doing that, I'd like to get my site to the point where you'd find it an adequate resource.

Is Satterfield not interested in continuing to maintain his site? Most of it seems to have been untouched for the last few years. I'll probably try to get in touch with him, but perhaps you already know what he's up to.


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## Kansas Volunteer

I've been very interested in the comb failure isssue. However, everything said about it is anecdotal, and not scientific. Scientists advise to never specify from the general, nor generalize from the specific. There are too many vairables involved in the tbh and comb failure issue to make any conclusions, as everyone here knows.

It could be that failures mentioned here seem so common, because only beekeepers experiencing failures post here. Those successfully keeping tbh may feel they already know enough to make the system work for them, and they see no great need to explore it further, and therefore don't post to sites like this.

The successful hives in New Mexico and Colorado are kept in dry cliamtes. Might that have any effect on comb failure?

There's a lot of stuff scattered around the web on tbh. Maybe it would be a good idea to copy it all onto one site, where it could be preserved, in case the original site owner decides not to maintain a site, or remove it from the net. In effect, this would be an e-library of tbh sites, where the "classics" could be preserved.

I've tried going through the pages of this thread to pick out bits of useful information. My life is such right now that I'd have a bit of time to spend working on some sort of FAQ, although I have found more useful information in the infrequently made statements, that in reply to the frequently asked questions.

I only stumbled across tbh by accident, while doing some general on-line research into hive construction, with the idea of getting back into bees this spring. I suspect there might be quite a few others like me out there. A well constructed site with lots of meta terms might draw more of the tbh curious, and expand the base of experience.

David S.


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## Michael Bush

>I've been very interested in the comb failure isssue. However, everything said about it is anecdotal, and not scientific. Scientists advise to never specify from the general, nor generalize from the specific. There are too many vairables involved in the tbh and comb failure issue to make any conclusions, as everyone here knows.

That is exactly my problem. I only have theories based on what I know about structure, bees and wax, but they are just that: theories. We do know that the shape seems to make SOME difference to how the comb supports itself, but the SIGNIFICANCE of this is hard to quantify. We know that hot wax will not support as much weight as cooler wax, so ventilation and insulation may be contributing factors. We know that the bees cool by ventilation and evaporation, so it may also be that there are climactic differences in play.

>It could be that failures mentioned here seem so common, because only beekeepers experiencing failures post here. Those successfully keeping tbh may feel they already know enough to make the system work for them, and they see no great need to explore it further, and therefore don't post to sites like this.

That's my assumption. I know there are lot of TBHs in Africa and other underdeveloped countries and a lot here and there in the US. But they probably have a system that works and don't worry about it.

>The successful hives in New Mexico and Colorado are kept in dry cliamtes. Might that have any effect on comb failure?

Basically a hive's "air conditioning" is a what the people in Colorado call a "swamp cooler". In other words it cools by evaporation. The bees haul water and evaporate it. You'll notice that swamp coolers are popular in dry climates, and not in humid climates. Mostly because they don't work effectively in humid climates. So, yes, the humidity could play a big part in comb failure.

>There's a lot of stuff scattered around the web on tbh. Maybe it would be a good idea to copy it all onto one site, where it could be preserved, in case the original site owner decides not to maintain a site, or remove it from the net. In effect, this would be an e-library of tbh sites, where the "classics" could be preserved.

Probably a good idea, but you would need permission from the site owners if you are going to duplicate their work somehwere. Probably most won't mind if you ask, since they are already sharing it.

>I've tried going through the pages of this thread to pick out bits of useful information. My life is such right now that I'd have a bit of time to spend working on some sort of FAQ, although I have found more useful information in the infrequently made statements, that in reply to the frequently asked questions.

Sounds great.

>I only stumbled across tbh by accident, while doing some general on-line research into hive construction, with the idea of getting back into bees this spring. I suspect there might be quite a few others like me out there. A well constructed site with lots of meta terms might draw more of the tbh curious, and expand the base of experience.

I thought I "reinvented" the top bar hive. I based my first one on vague referenes to the Greek basket hives. I knew it wasn't my original idea, but I didn't think anyone else was building them. Several years later I saw one in ABJ.


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## Oxankle

Fellows:
I've gone over and had a look at Dmcdonald's site, the pictures and the specifications for the hive. That is an elegant design. 

The design takes a bit more cutting; to get the side boards to fit flat against the floor and top bars you have to cut the slope on both edges. Of course the end boards have to be cut as well, but this is no big deal. 

Looking at the hive in terms of construction materiel, one ten foot plank will build the box-sides, ends and bottom for a 26 bar hive if you will use scrap 2 x6's or similar material for the ends. 

I am going to get started on one of these ASAP. 
Ox


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## Michael Bush

http://home.att.net/~mcdonald/bees/hive/ This hive is in the range of what I've seen with successful hives. The bars are only 16" (most seem to be between 15" and 16"). The sides are sloped. Not as much as most, but off of vertical. We have discussed insulation in the lid, which this one has. I've done the groove down the middle for a starter strip on bars with farily good luck. The design is in the range of what I am begining to think is good for a TBH.

I made my box from four peices of wood and didn't make any angles on the edges. I wanted to keep it simple. It's two 48 3/4" long 1 x 12s for the sides, two 15" long 1 x 12s for the ends, and one 48 3/4" long 1 x 6 for the bottom. Pretty much it's the same assembly as this one: http://nanaimo.ark.com/~cberube/images/ktbhplan.gif 

Except the sides are lined up on the edge of the 1 x 6 botom board and nailed through the 1 x 6 into the sides. It only requires cutting five boards to length to make the box.

I don't know that it would work any better, but it was very easy to make.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited January 22, 2004).]


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## txbeeguy

Comb Failure. 
The conclusion I came to, is that it all has to do with the amount of suspended weight (per linear inch) that the wax has to support. Certainly this is directly affected by temperature. 
My point here, is that the length of the bar and the point of attachment, along the bottom of the top bar doesn't play a significant role in the comb's failure. 
At least speaking from my experience, my comb failed about five or six inches beneath the bottom of the top bar. I used grooved top bars and waxed in place starter strips; the bees took off with these starter strips and made beautiful, straight comb. They did a wonderful job of building and attaching the comb to the bottom of the top bar (without attaching any comb to the sides of the hive). See pictures in my Yahoo profile: http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/txbeeguy 
The comb was plenty strong at the point of attachment. Where I ran into trouble was with the depth of the comb. At the point of failure (about six inches from the bottom of the top bar), the comb had a great deal of weight suspended below that point. This weight took the form of sealed brood and attendant house bees (and perhaps a little stored honey). The comb tore in an almost uniform line at the point of failure - this happened on about four combs (all brood comb).
While I won't argue that a 15 or 16 inch long top bar wouldn't be stronger than say a 19 inch long top bar (Langstroth length), what I do believe is that the length of the bar isn't nearly as critical as the comb's depth (and thus, the amount of suspended weight per linear inch). 
This summer, I will limit the depth to which the bees can draw out comb, and I believe this will solve the problem of comb failure. I also will incorporate an air space between the "roof" of the hive and the top bars. I will also keep a solid bottom board on year round (i.e., not screened bottom) in an effort to explore MB's idea about hive cooling.


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## Scot Mc Pherson

>>> The conclusion I came to, is that it all has to do with the amount of suspended weight (per linear inch) that the wax has to support. Certainly this is directly affected by temperature. <<<

Absolutely, but there are other issues that factor into the stress factor. Strictly speaking the vertical linear weight is the princple factor I believe just as you are saying, but what michael has stated is also a factor for a few subtle reasons. One might note that the dimensions michael is recommended very closely reflect my recommendations for this next years batch of hives. The length of the top bar inderectly effects the weight that can be supported vertically. You see, the comb in a direct vertical line is not the only weight bearing comb for any specific square inch of honey/brood/bee laden comb. Honey by far is the heaviest load within the hive, but this is beside the point. If one draws a square, with and then draws an inverted triangle so that it points downward, this is the princple weight bearing portion of the comb for the bottom of this triangle, not necessarily a straight line, and in fact most certainly not. The comb which bears the most weight of the bottom of the triangle is actually along and adjectent to the legs of the triangle. This is a demonstratable fact which one studies at school as part of any structural engineering course. Its the same as a pile of sand or dirt. The dirt which bears the most weight within a pile of dirt is not the center of the bottom of the pile, its actually a ring of dirt which resides a fair distance away from the the center of the pile.
Now taking this into considering, if one builds a Tanzanian (Squared Side) TBH, the edges of the comb only have the benefit of wieght bearing support from the comb farther towards to the center, half of the supporting triangle is missing. Therefore in this design the ends of the top bar are supporting the most weight, and being at the ends and not at the center, have a better chance of zipping off the top bar. The bees counteract this by attaching comb to the walls of the hive, which we have seen causes the comb to fail when we interrupt this mechnical stability.

2nd, depth is not the only factor is determining the strength of the supporting structure. One needs to remember that wood expands as it gets warmer, and one can also assume that so do honey stores. But the comb and the wood expand at different rates. I feel certain that is one were to try to build a top bar hive that was built with say 5ft long top bars, but was only 3 inches in vertical depth, in the summer months you would find one of two possibilities (either of which is fatal). 1) either the comb would shear directly from the top bar as a result of the bar expanding and all or most comb would be sheared from the top bar from one side, or the comb would remain attached, but would be cracked at fairly regular intervals. This is an extreme example, but it demonstrates of top bar length MIGHT contribute to comb failure.

What I propose, and what I proposed often enough in the past (without having the opportunity to try it myself yet), is to build a Kenyan TBH with a top bar length of 16" (internal dimension), with a hieght to not exceed 10" of comb. If one builds the hive with 30deg or more of slope from vertical, this allows any portion the comb to have adequate and maximal support from the comb above it. 30deg being the minimal slope because "prefect" cells of honey comb are precisely devided into 6 vectors, the same as uniform marbles are. Place one marble on a table, and place 6 matching marbles around it, and you will find that the marbles devide up precisely into the same 6 vectors. The weight bearing vector of any given cell is the 60 deg of comb facing directly upward. When cut in half this is 30 degrees to either side of the vertical line. I suggest 30deg as a minimal slope because exceeding that cannot cause harm, but not attaining 30 deg reduces the weight bearing ability of the edges of the comb. My plans include using slopes of precisley 32.5 degrees, but this is more a matter of convenience for me because I want the bottom board to be of a given convenient width, and also facilitates exceeding the minimum 30deg.


>>> I will also keep a solid bottom board on year round (i.e., not screened bottom) in an effort to explore MB's idea about hive cooling. <<<

This is also a fine idea, the abcense of a bottom board facilitate an increase of the internal hive temperature. Basic everyday common sense, warm air rises, cool air drops. By removing the floor of the hive, we are allowing the heat to be trapped in the hive, because much of the cooling effect the bees and evaporation have is lost because the coolness drops out of the hive. Ventilation should be provided from the side closer to the top of the hive if possible, this will allow the warm air to escape and trap the cooler air within the hive.

Granted not many hives are perfectly sealed, but small cracks around the edges are quite a different thing from a missing floor. This may also partially explain the bees behavior to seal all cracks, they may be insulating their home from drafts. Although it has been practiced that we place hive entrances at the bottom of a hive, it might be interesting to experiment with entrances in the middle or above the middle of the hive, allowing yet more heat to escape and allowing the bees to trap more cool air.

So my suggested "INTERNAL" dimensions for a KTBH are 16" or 40cm Top Bars, with a depth of 10" or 25 cm using 30 deg of slope or better. The number of frames one uses is a matter of personal taste, regional considerations, convenience and purpose of hive. (i.e. a TBH nuc might only be 3-8 bars while a real honey cow might exceed 40 or 50 bars. If one were to shorten the top bar so that the slope of the hive meet at the bottom of the hive in a traingle, one would find they have an equilateral traingle.

Ok enough of my autistic gibberish. I hope this proves helpful into understand why not only the vertical depth of a hive is not the prime factor in comb failure, but a prime contributing factor.

Again as Michael has stated in the recent past, this is what I "think", but I am pretty ****ed sure my thinking cap is on straight.

------------------
-- 
Scot Mc Pherson
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me


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## Scot Mc Pherson

I have suddenly changed my mind about providing the sole entrance to the hive at the top of the hive. During the winter months, this would have the very same effect, trapping the cold air while letting the warm air escape.

I think perhaps we might continue using bottom entrances, but facilitating pluggable vents higher up on the front of the hive.

I dunno, hmm, this gives me something to think about. Multiple entrances would facilitate a draft condition.


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## dmcdonald

Thanks, Scot, for the analysis of the comb dimensions from an engineering perspective; I'm going to have spend some time thinking through your posting. I'd had a gut-level sense that a longer bar might make the comb more vulnerable, but hadn't been able to articulate why. Still can't, but maybe after I digest your posting I will.

I've just posted some pictures of a screened bottom-board TBH from Marty Hardison. The area under the screen is enclosed, and there's a board which can be inserted when appropriate to eliminate the extra volume contributed by the mite-drop space. This is his first effort at a screened TBH, and he expects to modify the design eventually. 

Anyway, his approach certainly would address the problem of open bottom-boards causing overheating in the hive, and it goes even further in that it lets you get rid of the drop space entirely. His emphasis is more on volume than on temperature, but the two seem very closely intertwined. With an open bottom-board, you are in some sense giving the bees a hive of infinite volume (or very large volume, depending on your cosmology), which would indeed cause some thermoregulation troubles.

Also, I've made a small correction to the stated bar length, on the page describing the basic hive--I'm actually using 16.5" bars. The extra half-inch makes them easier to lift off the hive.

Here's the new stuff: http://home.att.net/~mcdonald/bees/hive/hardison/


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## Michael Bush

My two experments in TBHs this year are from two points of view.

The first is the angled walled short barred one already discussed on the theory that the shape of the comb distributes the weight and that the longer width comb puts more stress on the comb. Also it's because all the successful ones I've heard of are close to these dimensions and I thought I should benefit from others experience.

The second is based on the theory espoused above, which may also be valid. That the weight of comb in releation to the attachment at the top is the secret. This is a three box long, medium depth Langstroth box with 19" top bars. They may both work.

When I built model rockets as a kid the usual rules for stability were that the center of gravity was in front of the center of pressure. This meant moving the center of gravity up by using weights in the nose, or moving the center of pressure back by putting fins on, was the conventional method of attain stability. Basically this is the model used by an arrow. I, being the unconventional one, proposed that a bottle rocket uses a different model where the center of thrust (a factor not taken into account in the previous model) is ahead of the center of gravity. In this model you move the center of gravity WAY back (the opposite of where you were moving it in the previous model) and the center of thrust way up. I built several rockets on this principle that all worked beautifully. This model works, as anyone who has shot a bottle rocket already knows. My point is that a model may work but not take all the factors into account.

It may be that a long bar in a shallow box may work as well as a shorter bar in a sloped box.


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## Scot Mc Pherson

dmcdonald,
Sorry about that. Pretty much what I am saying is that Michael and I fairly agree on what is a good size and shape of top bar comb.

The weight at the bottom of the comb is distributed along the top of the bar in 60 or more degrees. A square comb doesn't benefit from the structural stability of this triangular shape and has a better chance of failure, that's all.

Limit the length of the top bar to about 16" and use 30deg or more of slope on the side and I think you'll be ok.


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## Michael Bush

On the subject of a long bar and a short comb, my failure was a wouble wide standard Lanstroth deep box. It was 9 5/8" + 3/4" for the bottom board deep and it failed. This is 10 1/8" from the top of the box to the bottom board with a bee space above the bar and a 3/8" bar. So from the bottom of the bar (where the comb starts) to the bottom of the comb (3/4" above the bottom)the comb was 9" deep. My current experiment in that direction is a standard medium wich is 6 5/8" + 3/4" for the bottom board. This is 3" less depth in the comb. I would hate for someone else to go through my frustration by repeating my mistakes.


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## txbeeguy

Michael, please describe WHERE your comb failed. 
I understand from your posting the comb was on the order of about 9 inches deep (from the bottom of the top bar) but I'm interested in knowing the location of where the comb broke (i.e., distance from the bottom of the top bar).
Obviously, what I'm trying to determine here, is the amount of suspended weight below where the break occurred. 
I'm sure there are a lot of variables due to temperature considerations (length of high temperature exposure, etc.) as well as perhaps the age of the comb (with "new" wax probably yielding at a much lower temperature than old wax). But if I can understand the different comb configurations and the locations of where failures happened, then it may be possible to establish some parameters for comb depth verses temperature ranges.


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## Michael Bush

The comb broke in different places on different combs, but mostly it seems like the lower corners would wobble some when handled and then the comb would break usually with a reverse arch in various places across. In other words the broken off piece would have a rounded portion on one end and the remaining piece would be the opposite. Sometimes most of the comb came off sometimes part of the comb came off but usually there was that reverse arch. The fact that it wanted to break at that arched angle leads me to believe that the angle has to do with how the weight is suspended and distributed. If you drew a straight line across the broken side's arch it would be about a 60 degree angle. But it wasn't a straight line. Where the arched tear reached the top bar then it tore the rest of the way across the top bar. Pretty much once one went they all went one after the other like a row a dominoes.

That's the best I can remember. At the time I was more trying to figure out what to do with it than studying it. I ended up scrapping the honey and cutting the brood and putting it in medium frames with rubber bands.


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## BWrangler

Hi TxBeeGuy and Everyone,

My comb didn't fail in a straight line at the top bar. It failed in a curved line about 3 to 4 inches below the top bar. Once the initial combs failed,they leaned against adjoining combs and they generally failed in a straight line a couple of inches down from the top bar.

Reducing the load with shorter top bars and shallower boxes could solve the problem.

I have some unproven concerns about overwintering bees on the shorter, shallower combs, especially in a steeply sloped hive. But my winters and early spring are probably very different.

I will put insulation and wider, thicker top bars in last years hive. 

This years new hive will have shorter, thicker top bars. But the hive will be six inches taller. It will be an interesting test. I've got my skill saw ready just in case I should've made it six inches shorter instead. :> )

Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush

It hasn't been a really bad winter, but I overwinterd a three box long medium depth hive and it's doing great. It's 33 medium PermaComb frames long with three migratory covers and a full length screened bottom board closed up with cardboard.

My slope sided one is basically the same depth as my first one. My shallower one will be the same as my long medium hive except with top bars. This is 3" shorter than the first one.


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## Oxankle

Fellows;
I want to chip in with an observation. 
Before I bought this place the former occupants allowed a swarm to stay under the soffit by the back door. 

The marks of the comb are still plainly visible, and last night I counted comb. There were twenty five combs, solidly attached to a depth of five brick (Twenty two inches?) on the house side. Outer edges curl and were probably cross-combed at that outer end. The combs were pretty straight where attached at the soffit but wobbled just a bit as natural combs do. 

I have seen other deep comb. The evidence is that undisturbed comb can be built to a great depth. If handled, unsupported fresh comb will "wobble at the edges" and fail 
just as described here. 

My conclusion would be that we might just leave our bees to their work, taking only the surplus honey we want until they have a complete season in the hive. Let them attach the comb to the hive as they want. During the first winter the bees will work their way to the back of the hive and the queen will lay in the empty comb nearest the remaining stores, moving forward until the hive is filled again. 

At that point the entire brood nest will be filled with dark comb which should be capable of supporting itself if carefully separated from the hive body. If it is separated with a thin knife (I am thinking a serrated bread knife here) the comb would quickly be reattached and supported by the bees. Work with the bees, not against them.

I am going to use FGMO as the principal means of mite control. Even If I decide to use Apistan I should not have to remove comb. 

The drawback to this is swarm control, but there are things we can do, such as trading sites with a weak colony. 

I just completed another TBH, this one built to Dmcdonald's specs. My miserable carpentry skills and boneheaded work habits caused me to cut the bottom board with side angles, so the whole thing is only 25 bars long. I sure cussed when I had to cut off the extra three inches, making a side board of the bottom. 

However, it is still a very smart little hive and I am looking forward to comparing it with the Tanzanian model. The straight sided, 32 bar hive has more than twice the volume of the tapered hive. Now let's see if I can manage them.
Ox


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## Michael Bush

I think you are right about the maturity of the comb. Young comb is much more fragile. Maybe if they make it through the first year they would be much stronger. But it's difficult to manage a hive if you can't open it up and go through it.

I also think the deep comb I've seen always has some attachments to the side. Not so much to hold the weight as to stabilize the comb from moving.


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## BWrangler

Hello Everyone,

Joe Waggles feral hive picture is a typical example of tall expanses of unbraced comb inside a wall. The width is within the range of our tbhs.

I'm approaching next seasons management of my deeper tbh along the lines Oxankle has mentioned. I will work the hive more extensively in the early part of the season. At that time the comb is lighter and easier to correct. Once swarming is over, I going to let the deep hive 'mature'. I'll only harvest a few combs from the rear if additional room is needed.

That's a tuff job for a tbh mangler like myself. :> )

I might have to build a tbh observation hive for my patio. That might keep me from messing around with the other tbhs too much. :> )))

Regards
Dennis
I must have been a problem child whose always getting into things.


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

I've been thinking about the configuration in my tbh as the bees got ready for winter. They packed the larger cell sized areas of the brood with honey and then expanded honey storage toward the rear of the hive. The small cell core area of the broodnest was left open for clustering, etc.

From this configuration, it appears that the bees were prepared to move horizontally for feed during late winter and early spring.

Bees in my standard hives do not move vertically during the winter unless they are starving or the cluster is too small.

I inspected my patio hive last week. They have about 2/3rds of a frame of brood. And it's on the same frame as the last patches of brood were reared on in October.

When the weather permits, the bees will break cluster and move honey into the core area of the broodnest. In my standard hives most of the movement is horizontal rather than vertical. They go to the warm side of the hive and get most of the honey there rather than above the cluster.

Maybe the advantages of winter vertical movement is over stated. An optimum vertical heigth might not be as large as I think depending upon the volume and shape of the cavity. It might be closer to 12 or 15 inches in our tbhs rather than 20 or more inches.

It will be interesting to see what Barry's bees have done when he gets into them this spring. His hive was about 24" wide and almost that deep. The bees didn't build comb to the bottom of his hive according to his last report. They stopped about 2/3rds of the way down and expanded horizontally.

Some thoughts
Dennis


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## txbeeguy

BWrangler wrote:
> It might be closer to 12 or 15 inches in our tbhs...

That's kind of what I'm thinking. 
Since MB's comb broke and it was no more than about 9 inches deep (but with verticle sides), there can't have been THAT much additional suspended weight below the initial point of failure. I'm thinking of limiting the depth of my comb to the 12 inch (+/-) range (and of course, keeping the bar length at 19 inches). Since the comb is more-or-less triangular shaped, a 12+/- inch depth should be sufficient to prevent comb failure. Plus, this year, the brood comb that failed will be on it's second year so hopefully it will be a little more stiff.


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## Michael Bush

>Maybe the advantages of winter vertical movement is over stated. An optimum vertical heigth might not be as large as I think depending upon the volume and shape of the cavity. It might be closer to 12 or 15 inches in our tbhs rather than 20 or more inches.

My medium hive that is overwintering fine right now, is only 6 5/8" deep. (7 1/2" counting the space over the bottom board). The combs are PermaComb and they are only 6" deep. I think the bees are quite versital at moving vertically or horizontally over winter.


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## BWrangler

Hi Michael,

That's good to hear. It certainly goes against what I have read, but whats new? :> )

Looking at how few communication holes existed in my tbh. It might be easier for a cluster to move horizontally across the bottom of the combs rather than horizontally around the top of the combs.
The bees certainly wanted the cluster at the bottom and not half way up.

I have wondered about the wintering abilities of a tbh, but I've been surprised by these tbhs before. Maybe they will winter even better in them. :> )

Regards
Dennis


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## Oxankle

dmcdonald or others:

I've been doing some measuring and thinking. 

The slope-sided TBH I built to dmcdonald's specs is only 25 bars long after I cut it a bit short. Even at the full length it has a volume equal to about what I leave for brood nests in conventional hives. 

Now, as dmc says that there are people making a living with these hives, I want to know how they manage them. This has got to be an art. 

Do you let the bees fill the hive in the fall and raise brood in all of it the next spring? 

Do you remove some empty brood combs to make room for new comb just before the honey flow? 

How do you manage the hives so that they go into the winter strong and well provisioned? 

Do you super these hives? 

If there is a fall honey failure, how do you feed? 

I can see ways around all these difficulties, but I do not want to reinvent the wheel. Someone is successful with these hives and probably would not mind telling us how it is done. 
Ox


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## dmcdonald

Oxankle and others,

I'm still learning the management of these hives, so I don't have a whole lot to say, but I have asked Marty Hardison to summarize his management principles for me via email. I'm also due to talk with Tim Haarmann soon.

One thing that Marty emphasizes in one of his old writings (there's a link to it on the links page on my site) is that hive design is local. He believes this hive design is especially suitable for conditions around here. Interestingly, he's going to be working this summer on starting an almond pollination operation in California, and will (I assume) be building a fairly different top-bar hive for those conditions. Here, at 7000 ft above sea level, and with minimal rainfall, a small hive makes sense. There, at sea level, with abundant nectar and with the necessity of moving the hives often, I imagine the hive will be bigger and may have some other changes to accomodate being transported often.

But putting aside differences in climate, it's quite possible that the small hive would still be adequate for your conditions, considering that the bees put away less honey in these hives. Dennis has noted on his site how the bees in a TBH seem to reach a point where they're just not very motivated to keep storing honey--this, more than the fact that the honey combs have to be rebuilt each year, may be the real reason for lower production in top-bar hives. 

In my conditions, 10 or 12 bars of the hive seem to suffice for the broodnest, and the rest is for honey, and since there's no mechanical extraction to be done, you can harvest a comb or two every time it starts to seem crowded.

About wintering (and again, this is certainly different elsewhere): we do a honey harvest in mid-September, and then as the weather cools, the bees begin to fill the broodcombs with honey for the winter. According to Tim Haarmann, those 10 or 12 bars full of honey should be sufficient to get a colony through a typical northern New Mexico winter. That's 30 to 36 lbs of honey. Actually, less, because there would be pollen in there too.

I'm guessing that as the weather warms, I'll need to check the brood area to be sure it's not hemmed in by honeycomb. If it is, I'll either shift or remove that honey, and provide some empty bars on the edges of the broodnest, to allow the bees to expand their broodrearing.

For feeding in the fall, I used Boardman feeders. I'm probably going to try a big bowl in the back of the hive, with floats, when I start new packages in spring, because I got tired of refilling those Boardman jars.

The guy south of here, who supports a family doing top-bar beekeeping, uses a different hive design than the one I've shown on my site. Besides having an airspace above the bars (instead of insulation), it has longer bars, a small side entrance instead of a big front one, and may be deeper than the hive I use. There are two small apiaries within a mile or two of me, using these hives, and I just need to get out there and photograph and measure the hives. I'd also like to take one of the workshops that beekeeper offers, and find out what his management practices are. (BTW, he takes advantage of the increased wax production from these hives, and does a brisk business with candles, or that's what I hear.)

Anyway, I suspect the volume of his hives is more than the volume of the Hardison hives. I'll try to get out within the next week and look at those hives--I think the comparison will be useful.

I hope none of you who built hives based on my phtographs are now stuck with hives too small for your abundant honey flows. I hadn't really thought to provide a warning that the volume might be too small for other locations.

Take a look at Hardison's essay on locale-specific hive designs, and tell me what you think.

David


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## dmcdonald

Now I'm wondering: doesn't your broodnest management philosophy have a determining effect on how populous the hive gets, and therefore on how big of a hive the bees seem to need? Suppose I built a much bigger hive, abandoned the assumption that the broodnest needs to be managed so as not to exceed 10-12 bars, and in fact tried to push the population high, by inserting empty bars into the brood area as fast as the bees could use them?

Maybe then it would turn out these small hives, and the broodnest management assumptions that go with them, are an artificial limit on the colony size and therefore also on honey production?

Or maybe my predecessors have already, in effect, done this investigation, in a roundabout way, and this hive size is just right for the conditions here. I don't know. It may be that without constant feeding, the food supply here just wouldn't be sufficient to populate a larger hive.

But I am tempted to build a bigger hive next year, and try encouraging a bigger brood area. Those of you who have used the 'unlimited broodnest' approach with Langstroths may be able to help me figure out how to approach this: is there an absolute population threshhold that triggers swarming, or is it more a matter of whether the bees feel they're running short on hive volume, proportionate to their population?


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## Scot Mc Pherson

dmcdonald,
Ok well. One of the reasons for using a tbh is less management. Dennis' bees became complacent because he speculates they were happy with their lot in life. A happy hive is a productive hive. If one could duplicate this condition with many hives, then one could discover their magic hive size. Let the bees get happy, then remove only as much honey as still guarantees their survival through the next winter. Continue this practice season and each hive will be strong, yet stress free.

If one is worried about increasing honey production, then add another hive. The cost of the hive is about the same as the cost of a new super.

This provides for less management and bees being able to manage their own brood nest. Again this makes the bees happier and provides a less stressful environment.

Same honey, just more hives with less management giving it.

One of the so called "disadvantages" is that you might not be able to manage the brood nest the same as in a langstroth. The comb might not be built to facilitate switching the bars around. I find this to be ok though, again I think the bees know what they want better than what we think is best for them. Just let the bees develop their population as they see fit and crop off honey from the back of the hive when the bees get that complacent look about them, but not so much that the bees get in a panic. Just enough to give them something to do.

I am working on designing some support equipment similar to things like the division board feeder and follower. A follower is a fake back to a TBH that allows you to control the size of a hive incrementally for winter management and such.

I view swarming a bit differently than most people I believe. If a hive is strong and has ample honey stores, then I think swarming is a healthly thing for the overall environment and healthy for your bees. It gives the bees a chance to multiply, and it also relaxes the population of your hives allowing the hive to "get back to work" as it were. Again swarming is a good and natural thing, not something I think we should discourage. Again if you are concerned about honey production, then build more hives, they are cheap.

Just my opinions.

------------------
-- 
Scot Mc Pherson
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me


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## Hillbillynursery

Scot and others,
I am some where in between let them swarm and take ever cell out of the hive. I think that during the swarming period that I would make splits and control the swarming behavior. I am starting out with 2 TBHs made exactly alike. IF they work out this year I am going to make all future TBHs the same. This will give me a chance to swap stores or brood. I was thinking of trying one of the methods I read were you take one to two frames(in this case TBs) from each colony to make a colony and either let them raise their own queen or purchase a queen for the split. According to what I have read this method slows if not stops the parent colonies from swarming by giving them room in the broodnest but does not deplete them of bees to make a good harvest. The split/s are suppose to make more honey than the brood cost the parent colonies by them being so strong for the begining. Since I only have 2 hives going thru winter I will have a slow start with this method. I will probly make a split this way but using 3 frames from each hive since they are in medium boxs and then shake them into the TBHs. Please do not get mad at this next comment. Since TBHs are so cheap to make and if you do not have to purchase bees because you keep enough bees to make all the slpits in the spring, I have thought about making the splits and just shaking(brushing the bees off the combs) out the weak colonies in the fall so they could join with the hives in the same yard. It is going back in time compared to modern ways of bee keeping but better than killing the hives to get their honey. It just seems the simplest way to combine TBHs since you can not stack them on the strong colony with news paper between them. I did think about brushing them directly into the hive chosen but them you would have to spray them and the hive with sugar water to keep the fighting down which is alot more work but could be done. This way the hives that were left would be real strong for the late fall flow. Maybe I just have to much time to think but I think when one is looking for simple beekeeping why not keep it simple.


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## Kansas Volunteer

You guys might want to look at this:
http://www.pinterventions.org/beekeeping_in_africa.htm 

I haven't had time to study it. I just got an e-mail from the folks telling me they had put their manual on-line. I had previously asked them to send me an e-copy in pdf format.

I'm looking forward to studying all the recent posts. I don't have time now, but it sure looks as if the subject is HOT!

David S.


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## Scot Mc Pherson

yeah this thread has been going on for 2 years and 3 months now.


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## Michael Bush

Looks like the one in the link above has a 19" top bar, according to their conversion. According to mine it would be closer to 18 7/8", but let's not get picky. The bars are 1 1/4" wide. The hive is 37 3/4" long and 7 3/8 wide inside at the bottom and 17 5/16 wide inside at the top.


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## Oxankle

dmcdonald:
David, around here we have a very early flow from black locust, then a short lull, then a main flow of clover that runs from about the first of May to mid-June. That is pretty much it until the fall wildflowers unless the bees are lucky enough to find some soybeans blooming in their range. 

At present I am running one hive body and a medium super, sometimes two mediums as brood nest. If well provisioned these hives are boiling with bees early in spring and will harvest locust, then clover. In the past I have taken of as many as six medium supers from one hive. Last year I had no harvest at all. 

Spring management generally consists of swapping places with the hive bodies. The queen will almost always be in the top with the remaining stores and a big brood nest while the bottom box will be almost empty. Reversing this puts the heat and the queen up in the wide open spaces. When serious about honey I cut out queen cells. 

With this history, I am not sure how to manage the little tapered hive, but for sure I would take out any surplus right after the main flow so that the bees could go back to work storing winter supplies. Here I would be afraid to pull any fall honey for fear that they would not have winter stores. 

After you have a look at the second set of hives, give us a report. It may be that there are improvements yet to be made. 
Ox


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## Oxankle

Fellows:

Re the discussion on the size of the TBH. 

I just read the equipment discussion on the site linked by Kansas Volunteer. There they state that the hive should be about 70 litres in volume. The design put out by dmcdonald runs around 74-75 litres; I just calculated mine at 72-73. 

There was no explanation for this, just the statement. Obviously there is something that we do not understand about bees and beekeeping in the TBH. 
Ox


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## Michael Bush

The one I just built is 74 liters. But it's a bit longer and narrower than most of you have. Mine is 48 3/4" long (three Langstroth boxes).


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## Oxankle

Michael:

The Somali hive for which plans are given is only 7 inches across the bottom, but l7+ across the top, much wider taper than ours. Length is about the same. 

I wonder why the 70 litre specification? 
Ox


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## Scot Mc Pherson

If we would start using metric measurements as a general course of life, seeing the relationships between linear dimensions and volume would be so much easier.


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## Oxankle

Scott;

You still have to multiply three dimensions. I have no trouble now visualizing cubic feet. I'll admit that it is easier to divide cubic CC's by 1,000 than to divide cubic inches by l727. 

Still, I wonder how it is that 70 litres is the suggested volume? I've e-mailed to ask.

If in fact there is a "bee" reason for that volume then follower boards are very much needed in larger hives. Certainly bees will occupy and use much larger hives when they are boiling over with workers and have a good flow. 
Ox


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## Michael Bush

I am speculating but I think part of this is that most TBH are a fixed size. If you use a follower, then they are not and you can change the size. I think if they are a fixed size, it has to be "just right". Too small and they swarm, too big and they don't prosper or overwinter well.


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## Kansas Volunteer

I've been trying to find info on-line about ideal hive size, without much luck.

I did run across this, which might provide some useful information and sources:
http://www.deh.gov.au/biodiversity/invasive/insects/bees/distribution.html 

David S.


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## txbeeguy

That Somali hive's dimension is not a lot different than mine. My hive is 19 inches at the top and tapers to about four or five inches at the bottom. My hive is 44 inches long (thirty top bars - or three Langstroth's). It has one 3/4-inch thick 'follower board'. I have the hive "sized down" using the follower board to just 15 top bars for this winter. If the comb hadn't failed, I'm sure the bees would have drawn out at least 20 bars the first year rather than just the 15 they're on now. After I limit their comb depth this Spring (by placing a wider bottom board in the hive) I will move the follower board to the back of the hive and give them the other 15 top bars to work this coming year.
-- 
About cavity size: I believe I recall a study published in "The Hive and the Honey Bee" but I don't recall the optimum cavity size they determined the bees liked best.


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## Oxankle

Fellows:
I got a reply from the folks in Somalia re the 70 litre specs for their top bar. 

Very gracious note; said that their bees were smaller, they used the 32mm top bar. Most farmers caught swarms at the beginning of the rains, kept the bees and harvested at the end of the rains and then saw the bees abscond when nectar became available farther away. Harvests around 25Kg. 

Said that they had not actually checked to see what sizes their clients were in fact building but knew that some were much larger, some smaller than 70 litres. They tried to discourage small hives as they promoted swarming. 

From this I conclude that in Somalia many beekeepers do not work toward year-round hives but simply harvest wild swarms. If they are not concerned with winter stores they can take all the honey---a 70 litre box is probably large enough. 

I think that I will sit tight now and try both the Somali and Tanzanian hives. A comparison will show me which I can manage.
Ox


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## Cinnamon

Hi,

I'm currently an armchair beekeeper and I'm planning to start out with 2 top bar hives this spring.

No-one locally uses tbh's so I'm wondering how to bootstrap my hives.

Can I just dump the bees into their new hive and let them get on with it? And how many bees would I need initially in this case?

I've read beewranglers nice site (love the pics!) and his Varrora blaster made me think that if I can just start off with bees (and no combs) this would be the ideal time to dust them down -- no combs for the mites to hide. Is that sensible, or will they get upset if I do that too soon?

Or should I dust them when they are still in their travelling box, wait a bit for them to calm down and the mites to die, then just put the box in the hive, open it and hope? Or maybe, not dust them at all intially, but a few days later?

Also, I'm tempted to make the back of the hive into a door, so I can easily put in feed and pull out the bottom sheet to count mites or simply have a peek without panicking them. 

If I do that, should I plan on adding a perspex sheet frame so I don't get divebombed?

many thanks,

Cinnamon

Ps.: I've a lot more questions, but the margin is to small to contain them


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## Michael Bush

>No-one locally uses tbh's so I'm wondering how to bootstrap my hives.

>Can I just dump the bees into their new hive and let them get on with it? And how many bees would I need initially in this case?

You will have to have a queen and some bees. If you're measuring in volume I'd say about a half a gallon to a gallon would be a nice start, but you could get by on as little as a quart. The more they have the quicker they will get started.

You could take a queen from an existing hive, buy one, or raise one. If you take some comb with eggs in it and tie a small piece to a top bar they will raise a queen, but it will slow them down a by about a month from giving them a queen.

If you buy a queen, go to all your hives and shake some bees off of brood comb. Be sure you don't get the queen unless that is your plan. The easiest way is to FIND the queen first, then shake the bees. I shake them into a box that has #8 hardware cloth on the bottom and an inner cover with #8 hardware cloth on it. Whenever you get to a new hive to do your shaking, knock the box on the ground to knock the cluster down and then shake some more frames of brood. This is so you get nurse bees who don't just fly back to the old hive. By getting bees from several hives you get them all disoriented. Put them in the basement where it's dark and cool for about four hours, or at least somewhere in the shade. This is to let them get organized and realize they are queenless. Then put a queen cage in with them and wait overnight. The next day I would dump the bees into the top bar hive and release the queen into the hive.

Of course if you buy a package they have already been through all of this. I'd brush some sugar syrup on the side of the box until they don't want anymore and then I'd just dump the bees in the TBH and release the queen. If you want to use some hardware cloth to close them in for 24 hours it may cut down on them wanting to abscond.

Of course feeding is in order whether you do or don't close them up.

>I've read beewranglers nice site (love the pics!) and his Varrora blaster made me think that if I can just start off with bees (and no combs) this would be the ideal time to dust them down -- no combs for the mites to hide. Is that sensible, or will they get upset if I do that too soon?

It would be a GREAT time to do it. The box I just described for the shakedown, would also work to dust them. You can just staple the inner cover on the top and flip it upside down and use a flour sifter or a pice of screen door screen to run the powdered sugar through to dust them. Shake them up well so they are thoroughly coated. Then turn the box with the screen down so the mites can fall out. The sugar won't kill the mites, it will just dislodge them, so you want the mites to have somwhere to fall.

>Or should I dust them when they are still in their travelling box, wait a bit for them to calm down and the mites to die

As I said, the mites won't die. They will just fall off. You have to give them somewhere to fall. Use a hive box (or any box) with #8 hardware cloth on the bottom so the mites have somewhere to fall.

>then just put the box in the hive, open it and hope?

You could put the box in the hive and open it. I would just dump them in. But if you want to dust them, do it before you put them in.

>Or maybe, not dust them at all intially, but a few days later?

Do it while you have them all outside the hive. You need to get the mites to fall OUTSIDE the hive.

>Also, I'm tempted to make the back of the hive into a door, so I can easily put in feed and pull out the bottom sheet to count mites or simply have a peek without panicking them. 

The nice thing about a top bar hive is you can pull the back bar out and take a peek without panicking them. The bottom sheet is best if it comes out the back so you don't upset the gaurds, of course.

>If I do that, should I plan on adding a perspex sheet frame so I don't get divebombed?

Not sure I understand the "perspex sheet frame"? If you're a beekeeper you will occasionally get divebombed. I'd get used to it.

>Ps.: I've a lot more questions, but the margin is to small to contain them 

You can make multiple posts.









I will say that a lot of things we talk about like dumping the box of bees in the hive, is much more messy in real life. A lot of bees start flying and a lot don't fall out of the box. Shaking bees into or out of a box is a bit more decisive of an action than you usually take when handling bees. You have to shake them hard enough to break their grip and that is never gentle. Not that you want to get overly violent either, but you have to rap the box rather decisively to knock the cluster loose. You soon learn the right amount if you pay attention. You don't want any more than necessary, but not less than necessary. Same with shaking bees off a frame. It takes a very decisive stop to knock them loose. I like to hold the frame in both hands and hit my hands on the side of the box I'm shaking them into. If you go too hard you'll hurt your hands. Too soft and the bees don't come off. But it's hard to go too hard with your hands absorbing the shock.


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## txbeeguy

> I'm tempted to make the back of the hive into a door...

That's the way my TBH is (hinged).
http://profiles.yahoo.com/txbeeguy 

The the "View my photos"


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## wayacoyote

Ox,
you asked about splined Top Bars. I used them this past year, and here is my experience. I grooved the TB's all the way to the ends and centered the splines with a beespace between them and the sides of the hive. I was a bit careless about applying beeswax to the TB's. This resulted in a few misplaced combs which were caught early on and removed. 

Second was a problem with the grooving itself. The grooves had to be wide enough for my scrap-wood spines. By running them all the way through to the ends of the TB, I was left with each groove serving as a opening to the hive. This allowed robbing and probably increased stress from a need for guard bees. The bees had to work over time to propolis these openings. I should have nipped this in the bud by sealing these openings.

On a separate note, I have noticed that some people are interested in TB's that would interchange into a Lang hive. I wanted this as well. Well, sticking to the typical designs of TBH's, I made my TB's to ride on top of the sides of the hive. I have decided that I will make my TB's the same length as those of a frame. This way, they will sit on the frame rest in a Lang body. With this design, I can interchange my frames and TB's and stack hive parts above in normal Lang-hive fashion.


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## Michael Bush

>On a separate note, I have noticed that some people are interested in TB's that would interchange into a Lang hive. I wanted this as well. Well, sticking to the typical designs of TBH's, I made my TB's to ride on top of the sides of the hive. I have decided that I will make my TB's the same length as those of a frame. This way, they will sit on the frame rest in a Lang body. With this design, I can interchange my frames and TB's and stack hive parts above in normal Lang-hive fashion.

I tried to make them the same as a Langstroth, in fact I PUT them in a Langstroth box (double wide) but the comb collapse has convinced me to go smaller.



[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited February 02, 2004).]


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## txbeeguy

My top bars are 19 inches long and were also cut to be interchangeable with a Langstroth hive. I have not tried them in a Lang box yet but not due to comb failure as much as the problem associated with burr comb attachment to a straight sided box. 
--
Michael, you know my earlier comments about suspended weight; I just wonder if, after your comb has aged some (i.e., gone through several cycles of brood), would the comb have stood up in a Lang box then? The other thing I'm a little concerned about regarding "interchangeability" between a sloped-sided TBH and a Lang box, is the more rectangular shape of the comb lending itself to less structural strength along the outter sides of the comb (a problem that is somewhat reduced in a slope-sided hive - due to less suspended weight as you get further away from the point of attachment on a top bar).


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## BULLSEYE BILL

>I tried to make them the same as a Langstroth, in fact I PUT them in a Langstroth box (double wide) but the comb collapse has convinced me to go smaller.

Had you considered putting the bars in crossways? That would make them four inches shorter.


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## wayacoyote

My last TB's were put in cross-ways and were shorter. It didn't solve the interchanglability issue since the frames were at right angles to the tb's.

Thanks for reminding me about the lenght/ comb failure issue. Surprisingly, after reading this whole thread, I forgot that. I still hope to go with foundationless frames. Perhaps by allowing them to brace to endbars, I will get stable comb.
Coyote


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## Cinnamon

Hi Michael and all,

Thanks for the enlightenment on the Varrora mites and initial population size 

> If you want to use some hardware cloth to close them in for 24 hours it may cut down on them wanting to abscond.

When you say '#8 hardware cloth', is that a metal mesh with 8mm squares? 

> Not sure I understand the "perspex sheet frame"? If you're a beekeeper you will occasionally get divebombed. I'd get used to it.

The idea of the perspex sheet was to minimize the disruption to the hive (temp, odours etc) when I open it from the back. Another worry I have is that I'll not be able to lift the hives in winter to check that they still have enough food, so part of this idea was that I thought I could perform a check wrapping the hive in a blanket at then end which I'm opening and quickly taking a look with a flashlight, without having to remove the roof and letting all the heat out, and the perspex frame/wall would further diminish this impact whilst allowing me to take a peek. (Tho London UK is definitly not Siberia, we had 1 cm snow here last week, for a whole 4 glorious hours, whee!)

Another question I have is: What is the weight of a topbar with full comb (say, if its from a hive with a 40cm x30cm rectangular cavity)? If it's more than 6kg, I might need to think about making the hive narrower and not so deep if that is possible. I've a bit of a structural problem with my spine, its no biggie, but I have to plan a little more in depth than others -- I'm lefthanded since 2 years which is an interesting challenge 

Cinnamon

Ps.: txbeeguy, nice photos!


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## Michael Bush

Bill, yes I thought of that. I just decided since the comb failure to try something more "conventional" as TBH's go and make a slopesided shorter barred hive.

Cinnamon,
>When you say '#8 hardware cloth', is that a metal mesh with 8mm squares? 

It is 8 wires to the inch. Sometimes called 1/8" hardware cloth. I don't know what's available there, but here the basic useful hardware cloths are: #4 (1/4") for keeping out mice and letting in bees. #5 for pollen traps and cheap queen excluders. #7 for a pollen screen to filter pollen through. #7 or #8 to keep bees out but provide good ventilation.

>The idea of the perspex sheet was to minimize the disruption to the hive (temp, odours etc) when I open it from the back. Another worry I have is that I'll not be able to lift the hives in winter to check that they still have enough food, so part of this idea was that I thought I could perform a check wrapping the hive in a blanket at then end which I'm opening and quickly taking a look with a flashlight, without having to remove the roof and letting all the heat out, and the perspex frame/wall would further diminish this impact whilst allowing me to take a peek. (Tho London UK is definitly not Siberia, we had 1 cm snow here last week, for a whole 4 glorious hours, whee!)

I suppose my first problem was I didn't know what perspex was, but I'm assuming it's some plastic glazing like Plexiglass or Lexan. I had a window on the side of my last one. The only thing I would point out is it needs a cover to keep the sun out. But I like them.


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## mattoleriver

CAUTION, rant to follow!

This topic has become WAY TOO HUGE! There is a lot of good information and people are obviously very interested but the information is buried within too many pages. When searching for specific information it is not reasonable to look through more than 400 posts to find something that may have just been mentioned in passing. I would like to see either a separate TBH Forum or more specific TBH topics within existing forums. This topic is too large for one thread.
Don't get me wrong, I really find this information fascinating, I just want to be able to find it again without reading 400+ posts.
George 

[This message has been edited by mattoleriver (edited February 03, 2004).]


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## Oxankle

George;
Can't we do that with the search feature? Specify that you want to search Equipment/Hardware for either author or subject? 

I'm going to test that now.
Ox


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## Michael Bush

It would be a nice thing to make a FAQ section for this or someone to compile the information and post it one place, but right now I think we still have more questions than answers so it's hard to organize the information.


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## Hillbillynursery

I have been thinking the same thing about this getting to long to find the point/s I was searching for at different times. I have no idea how to sort it or re do it unless it had its own board. If we had a few people with alot of experience that worked(little or no comb failure, management to make them work, type of box, ect), Then it could be slpit up or have FAQ section for it. I bought a table saw today and will be getting started making my TBHs later this week. I can not wait to see how it comes out. I think I am going to make a mix of bar widths. I am going to have 1 1/4, 1 3/8, and 1 1/2. This way I hope to get small cell in the brood area and as I get into honey combs I will not have a problem with crossing combs. I know I will do this in one hive.


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## Michael Bush

>I am going to have 1 1/4, 1 3/8, and 1 1/2. This way I hope to get small cell in the brood area and as I get into honey combs I will not have a problem with crossing combs. I know I will do this in one hive.

That's what I'm doing in this one. A variety with 1 1/4" in the brood chamber.


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## Scot Mc Pherson

I am still working on the FAQ.

The issue is two fold, how to organize it, and where do I start?

THere is a ton of information to sift through, plus I am trying to not sound really stupid as I compile it.

I want to not just write this and make it seem like I am the source of information. I'd like it to be more collaborative.

But at first I think getting a rough draft out first, and then perhaps we can edit it or make comments to it ... or sth...but I don't have anything I am willing to let you all look at yet, its just a mess of jumbled ideas and posed questions. P


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## Michael Bush

Offhand I'd say the issues are:

How do you handle the combs. Including how to correct misdrawn (running off of the bar) or crosscombs.

How do yo work the hive?

What are the "critical" dimensions? Volume? Top bar length? Angle of the sides? Depth?

Ventilation? How much? How to get it?

Entrances? Where? How many?

Stands? Yes or no? How to build them?

How to stock a hive?

I think I'd do each of these (and other topics as they occur to you) and put in everyones opinon on the subject. Because at this point, most of us are speculating based on dimensions of working TBH's posted somewhere.


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## dmcdonald

I've added to my site a description and photos of another hive, from a beekeeper named Les Crowder. This one is especially interesting in that it has a small entrance and doesn't seem to require any additional ventilation. This makes me think that the need for additional ventilation in some hive designs is because with too large an entrance, the bees can't effectively pump air, by fanning--there's too much uncontrollable air leakage.

Note also that this hive uses 20-inch bars, with about 18 inches effective comb width at the top. No reports of comb failure, though I didn't ask Les specifically about this.

Anyway, this hive merits a close look. I hope to participate in a workshop with Les next month, and will know more then.

Here's the link: http://home.att.net/~mcdonald/bees/hive/


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## Hillbillynursery

I like the pics and desciption of Les's TBHs. Did you notice how many of the the TBs were warped? I think that I will place some 2x material down both ends of the TBs to help keep this from happening as bad. I think I will also build a top instead of using a piece of tin. It will be simple, probly a piece of plywood covered with flashing metal. The point of the strips he places on the bar is close to center. This should be where the mid rib is formed so it should cener the combs. I had an idea to make a tri anglular piece and glueing and nailing it on the top bar to mimic those fancy cut TBs. If this is the way he has been doing it for years with good success I will have to give it a try when I get the saw set up(going to make room and hope to assemble Friday and start work on my hives the next weekend).


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## Kansas Volunteer

First, Micahel, Cinnamon's Perspex is what we call Plexiglas, or acrylic sheet.

I think it's neat to see the thread run on so long, but it is a nuisance to search.

An FAQ is in order, and I'd be happy to help with it, as I think I indicated before. Once upon a time, I was an editor, so can help anyone working on and FAQ and desiring help.

I really would like to know if there is anyway to print out this entire thread? I have tried doing anything like that before, but it would help we a lot to have it on paper. Call me old fashioned, but I still find paper much more freindly to work on. Could we get the site owner or someone to bundle it all up in once piece, or does itexist that way now in the cyber world?

David S.


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## Scot Mc Pherson

Well Cinnamon gave me the idea of using a wiki type deal last night. I have already done some research on the software and have a quick and dirty setup running on my own server right now without any content. More like just seeing what this can do before I commit to it.

It should provide us the ability to create a living and breath and user updateable FAQ.

I have e-mailed Barry about this as far as beesource.com is concerned, but again it was only last night so I haven't heard from him yet. I don't mind hosting the FAQ, though I think if its going to be a beesource.com FAQ that either the wiki is hosted directly on the beesource server, or if beesource.com can grant me a sub domain name like faq.beesource.com or wiki.beesource.com. Then the wiki/faq can be hosted on my own servers which make adminstration a little easier for me, at least unless or until I get admin right to beesource...Again no biggy, but this software is pretty neat, I am kind of excited about it because the foundation or platform of our FAQ.

The lack of necessity to have one person edit the FAQ and maintain it regularly makes it even more attractive as a general beekeeping FAQ forum. As people feel like making contributions, they can.

Pages can be organized by popularity, date of recent changes, and lot of other neat things. ANyway, I'd like to hear what you think about a "living and breathing FAQ Forum" aka beewiki is what I am calling it right now. I have already started hybridizing it so it looks nice to me. Its based on phpwiki in case anyone is interested in knowing that.

I am still learning about it, its online right now (without any content) and I am reluctant to release the current URL for it because it looks rather plain. I'd like to improve on it, give it the color schemas we use on beesource and such things like that. Perhaps tonight or tomorrow I will have something for you to look at. But it is there and it is working right now.

------------------
-- 
Scot Mc Pherson
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me
"Do or not do, there is no try" ~ Master Yoda


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## Cinnamon

Heyas,

It occured to me that not everyone here knows what a wiki is.

Take a look here to see one in action:
http://senseis.xmp.net/ 

This works very well for the Go players!

Oh, no-one answered how heavy a fully drawn frame is btw (say 40cmx30 cm, that is 16 by 12 inch) I just need a ballpark figure so I can ponder the design of my hives 

cheers,

Cinnamon


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## dmcdonald

Sounds like a Wiki is an excellent way to do the FAQ. Thanks for getting it going, Scot.


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## Michael Bush

Full deep comb 8" * 17" (comb dimensions not frame dimensions) (136 inches sq) comb weighs 9 pounds.
Thats about .066 pounds per square inch.
so thats 16 * 12 inches which is 192 inches sq *.066 pounds per square inch is 12.672 pounds or 5.73 Kg.


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## Scot Mc Pherson

Ok guys, I have the inital FAQ site setup in place. Please forgive the sparseness of the wiki because I have been working on setting it up, not adding content. Plus I only just started working on this last night.

I am still trying to get the theme right for beesource so please pay no mind to that at the moment.

Please feel free to play around with it, but also, please try to be serious. I don't at the moment have any way managing what has been included on the pages. I have included help and instructions at the bottom of the homepage, and it should be MORE than enough to get everyone started.

If you want to experiment to see what somethign does, please use the sandbox for any "playing around" I do not care what content you put in there, that's what it's for. I'll flush it if something offensive ends up in there, but that's hte extent of my managing the sandbox.

right now the wiki can be found at: http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/index.php 

I have E-mailed barry about the wiki to either be hosted directly on beesource, or to have beesource provide me a subdomain like faq.beesource.com or beewiki.beesource.com or something like that, I haven't heard from barry yet about it though.

------------------
-- 
Scot Mc Pherson
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me
"Do or not do, there is no try" ~ Master Yoda


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## Oxankle

DMcDonald:
I've been studying your pictures of the Crowder hive. I like it. As nearly as I can deduce the inside measurements will be 7.58 high, 9.5 (or a fraction less) on the bottom and a hair over l7 across the top. 

I calculate volume at between 58 and 59 litres, not a lot less than the Hardison hive I built from your plans. 

A single ten foot 1 x 10 plus a couple pieces of 2x scrap for the ends and top bars will build one of these. With the shallow draft there should be no comb failure at all. 

I calculate a tenth of an inch left with 25 bars. If I use 2x ends the hive will handle 24 bars. 

I like the high end pieces. This will hold any roof boarding well above the top bars, but it might leave the top bars accessible to varmints. 

The cleats nailed on the top bars as centering devices are devilishly simple if they work. Definitely less work than splines or wax starter strips. Have you seen them in use? 

Re:Comments concerning the saw cuts for the splines. No bee can get thru a 1/8 inch saw kerf, but ants and moth larva can hole up in them. On some of my top bars I ran the spline the entire length of the bar, then used my knife to cut down to the bar where the spline needed to be removed. 
Ox


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## dmcdonald

Oxankle,

I like those Crowder hives too. I like how economical the design is.

Those nailed cleats--I haven't yet seen them in use, and I wonder whether they affect the comb differently than a narrow spline would--but I know they are being used, in a lot of hives, so they must be adequate. I'll get to look closely at some combs from these hives next month, and I'll be able to say more then. One more thing: I think those cleat pieces are produced when the edges of the bottom board are trimmed, so it's a clever reuse of a by-product of making the hive body....

David


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## limulus

Hello all,
Thank you posting all this valuable information, and the links to some great sites and pictures. I plan on starting a top bar hive this spring. I have not had any experience in beekeeping except as a kid helping a neighbor who had a few Lang hives. I allways thought it would be a bit equipment intensive (Hives, supers, extractors, etc.)for me do , but now I am going to give it a shot with a tbh or two. This thread has been very informative. My question is regarding the shape of the top bars. A number of you have posted that the bees like to build curved comb, and methods to straighten the comb.I was wondering if any of you have pictures of curved comb, and have noticed any consistancy to the degree of curvature. The reason I am asking is that if we want to let the bees build what they want why can't we let them make curved comb? If they like a particular degree of curvature I could build my top bars curved toward the front and allow them to built the comb the way they want it. maybe it would even be stronger that way. And since all the bars would be curved bee space would be maintained. Any Thoughts?


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## Michael Bush

>My question is regarding the shape of the top bars. A number of you have posted that the bees like to build curved comb, and methods to straighten the comb.I was wondering if any of you have pictures of curved comb, and have noticed any consistancy to the degree of curvature.

Basically the ends of the combs seem to curve toward the front of the hive on mine.

>The reason I am asking is that if we want to let the bees build what they want why can't we let them make curved comb?

Because it would be too hard to manipulate?

>If they like a particular degree of curvature I could build my top bars curved toward the front and allow them to built the comb the way they want it. maybe it would even be stronger that way. And since all the bars would be curved bee space would be maintained.

I had bars that were the length of a Lang frame. The comb went about 1/4" toward the front at the ends, but this grow as the comb worked it's way back so it was finally bridging the bars.

>Any Thoughts?

Bend a stick and try to get it to stay on the edge of a box. You'll find than any significant amount of curvature would cause the bar to not set flat in the hive.

I don't think it's that important. It's pretty insignificant at first and accumulates as you work your way back in the hive.

I was using 1 1/2" bars which may have facilitated the curve by giving the bees more room to work with too. But I'm going to 1 1/4" this time.

On another note, I nailed and glued the "V" piece on the bottom of all the bars on this hive. I'll let everyone know how it goes. They are a 45 degree from each side (a 90 degree with the verticies down). I cut them so they would center the bar in the top bar hive also as well as center the comb on the bar.


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## BerkeyDavid

The FAQ is a great idea. You people are great! I would suggest you add these other topics to the FAQ: Links; Advantages and disadvantages; Effect of TBH on mites (my understanding is that so far no actual evidence?)

------------------


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## Scot Mc Pherson

Thanx we've been talking about it for a long time.

The FAQ site is still in its infancy, and I am more trying to figure out how best to organize it before too much content is added, so you'll see the changes haven't really been additions of content buy more moving things around and adjusting the format.

I am going to be adding some stuff today to the TBH section. I am hoping some others will join in and start adding stuff.

------------------
-- 
Scot Mc Pherson
BeeSourceFAQ: http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/ 
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me
"Do or not do, there is no try" ~ Master Yoda

[This message has been edited by Scot Mc Pherson (edited February 10, 2004).]


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## Oxankle

Michael:
When the subject of V-shaped bottoms on TB's first came up I wondered why they were not made as you describe rather than with the intricate cuts discussed. 

We should compare notes at the end of this season to see what works best. severals of us have waxed splines, the Crowder hive uses a wedge with a vertical spaced on center and I see comments indicating there are several with V-shaped bottom bars. 

One thing I noticed about the Crowder hive is that it appeared that the vertical face of the wedge was pretty wide--perhaps more than a half inch. DMc, we will be interested in your report post workshop.
Ox


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## Michael Bush

>When the subject of V-shaped bottoms on TB's first came up I wondered why they were not made as you describe rather than with the intricate cuts discussed. 

I think I could have made it all one piece, but I think two pieces glued is stronger and easier to make. But then I bought a table saw... so maybe I'll do them as one piece next time.

>We should compare notes at the end of this season to see what works best. severals of us have waxed splines,

I've never tried them.

>the Crowder hive uses a wedge with a vertical spaced on center and I see comments indicating there are several with V-shaped bottom bars.

It was an interesting centering device. I think it's that way to simplify things for the builder.

>One thing I noticed about the Crowder hive is that it appeared that the vertical face of the wedge was pretty wide

Mine are cut off of the corner of a 3/4" thick board. So the faces on the wedge are 3/4" and the base where it attaches is a little wider than an inch.


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## BerkeyDavid

I am building 3 top bar hives, any problem putting a "window" of plexiglass in to make an observation spot? If no problem, where would be the best place? I was thinking at the entrance end along the side...


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## Hillbillynursery

I plan on putting the window in the rear of the hive. As long as the glass has a cover to keep light out it would not matter where you put it. I have thought about putting more than one on a hive. If I put one on the side and one at the rear the side could be opened for better lighting during the first few combs. When it got full or nearly full you could just peak in to see if you need to remove some combs from the rear and still see the brood area through the side.


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## Michael Bush

>I am building 3 top bar hives, any problem putting a "window" of plexiglass in to make an observation spot? If no problem, where would be the best place? I was thinking at the entrance end along the side...

One nice thing about top bar hives is the frames aren't blocking your view nor the foundation.

I think the best view is from the ends (not the sides) because you can see the face of the combs. But the side view isn't too bad either and you can see more of the length of the hive. The only problems are that you need to be able to close it so it doesn't turn into a solar wax melter, and you need to be able to insulate it well enough to winter. A simple solution is to put a piece of plexigalss on for the side or end. Drill holes lareg enough that the screws will slide through them easily and cut a 1 by 2 frame to go around and hold on the plexiglass. Drill pilot holes in the 1 by 2 that line up with holes in the plexiglass. Screw the whole thing on the end or side. Then cut a 1 by "shutter" to fit snug in the window and make a toggle (a small piece of wood with a screw in the middle so it pivots) top and bottom to hold the shutter in.

I've done this with good success on both lanstroth hives and top bar hives.

Be sure you drill the pilot hole in the plexiglas big enough that the screw doesn't have to stretch the hole in the plexiglass or the plexiglas will break. Also, if you can, get the hardware store to cut the plexi for you, that way you don't have to worry about breaking it. If you DO cut it yourself, either use a fine plywood blade turned backwards (teeth going the other way) or a very sharp utility knife and score it well on both sides and break it.

I didn't do it on this one because I'm still trying to figure out how well the dimensions will work, and I'm trying to keep it simple.


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## scsasdsa

HI all! 
After reading all your posts I decided to try a tbh this spring I made it 48" overall long w/19" top bars sloped sides 22deg. off vertical and 12" deep. this makes an inside dimension of about 17 litre. I also made a follower board to reduce the hive size untill more room is needed. I thought I would start with about 10 bars. I drilled 6 - 3/4" holes at one end about 1" from the bottom on one end and made closing blocks for all but one. the roof will be from metal flashing on a raised telescoping wooden cover.does this set off any warning bells for those of you who have used TBH's.
thanks stuart


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## Oxankle

Stuart:
Reading your post; Your l7 litre figure seems awfully low unless you are referring only to the first ten bars.  Overall design much like the Tanzanian hive. 

I am building my third--I built one square sided Tanzanian, then modeled one on DMcdonald's Hardison hive and am working on a copy of the Crowder hive DMc posted.

After looking at the three side by side and talking to the lady in Somalia where the Hardison and Crowder designs originated I tend to like both the Hardison and Crowder designs better. I am thinking of ease of working them as well as the possibility of comb collaps in the 12 inch hives. 

The Hardison hive is only slightly shallower than the Tanzanian model. Both it and the Crowder hive will require almost continuous harvests in a strong flow unless one devises a method of supering. 

No matter which you use you have to remember that in Africa farmers do not plan to overwinter swarms--I was told that most farmers there using these TBH's plan on catching swarms at the beginning of the rainy season. At the end of the rainy season the swarms often abscond to follow the honey flow as the seasons move across the continent. Like migrant workers here moving North. For that reason the beekeepers do not need large hives. 

I am thinking that because of these differing conditions we will have to manage our hives in ways that we are not accustomed to. 

DMc; if you read this, please pay close attention to Mr Crowder when he talks about managing his hives and give us a report please.
Ox


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## Michael Bush

I'm still trying to work out what I think are optimal diminsions, but from my experience so far I think 12" is too deep and 19" is too wide. My first was a standard double wide Dadant deep box that was 9 5/8" deep (on a bottom board with another 3/4" = 10 3/8") and 19" bars that set in the frame rest of the Dadant deep. The combs collapsed.

My latest one has 15" bars and is about same depth, 10" deep with sloped sides. Basically it's just a 1 x 12 for all the sides and a 1 x 6 for the bottom, with the bottom nailed through to the sides and then the sides spread to 15" wide at the top. My other latest one is a three box long Lanstroth medium depth box with 19" bars. My two theories are that a shorter bar and sloped comb will relieve some of the stress. Or that the same length with less depth will relive some of the stress. I think it's likely that both may work. I probably would have only done the medium lanstroth size, but the sloped sided ones seem to be the majority of the ones that are working so I thought I'd pursue that also.

That's my opinion, but I can't say I've proven it yet.


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## Scot Mc Pherson

Everyone knows my preferences for a top bar hive. I just wanted to chime in about the 3 box medium top bar hive you are talking about. I think that with bars that wide and bottoms that wide that you might not have a problem with side attachements, but that you'll experience bottom attachments.

What do you think? I am curious. It will be interesting to watch.

I am playing with 3 hives each to a similar but different design based on the dimensions outlined at the beewiki.

Check it out.

------------------
-- 
Scot Mc Pherson
BeeSourceFAQ: <A HREF="http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/

Linux" TARGET=_blank>http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/</A>

Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me

"Do or not do, there is no try" ~ Master Yoda


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## Oxankle

Scott:

How does one get to your FAQ site? 
Ox


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## Michael Bush

>I just wanted to chime in about the 3 box medium top bar hive you are talking about. I think that with bars that wide and bottoms that wide that you might not have a problem with side attachements, but that you'll experience bottom attachments.

I don't think I would except I also have a SBB on it. So I might have problems with bottom attachments. We will see.


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## Scot Mc Pherson

Oxankle,
Take a look at my sig

------------------
Scot Mc Pherson
BeeSourceFAQ: http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/ 


"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me

"Do or not do, there is no try" ~ Master Yoda

[This message has been edited by Scot Mc Pherson (edited February 16, 2004).]


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## txbeeguy

scsasdsa,
I think your dimensions have pretty much hit it "right on". As I've posted before, I don't think the 19-inch TB length plays a factor in comb failure. With the depth limited to 12-inches and the sloped sides (and thus, the natural shape the comb will take) should be just about right. In fact, once I put in place my 'wider' bottom board, I believe I'll end up with dimensions not greatly different from yours. I expect the comb should handle the suspended weight without difficulty (especially in your cooler VT climate). As your summer goes along, please keep us posted.


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## wayacoyote

Michael Palmer, and anyone else that makes their own foundation or starter strips,

Have you made whole-sheet foundation (without embossing) and had it work smoothly? (drawn-out pretty clean). I guess this was done in the early days of "foundation production". Does anyone have advice on how it worked? 

I am trying to decide between using the Un-founation method, like Michael use; and providing just a thin foundation with wiring hoping for straighter and stronger comb.

What say ye?
Wayacoyote


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## scsasdsa

Hi all!
I have made two different top bars for my TBH the first with a groove cut the length of the bar filled with wax, the second beveled from both sides leaving a spline about 1/4" wide the length of the bar.
I attempted to match the pitch of natural comb with the bevel I will just rub the spline with bee's wax and see whick they work better. I'll keep you posted.Still getting near zero nights here, getting the itch to go play with the girls.
good beekeeping!


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## Michael Bush

>I attempted to match the pitch of natural comb with the bevel

I tried this before and it works ok, but I think a steeper angle works better. My new ones are 45 degrees on each side. Your spline may help too, I didn't do the spline.


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