# If I may have killed my queen by accident, will a swarm cell replace her?



## Capps (Jul 21, 2012)

I am not sure if it was her or not, but she may have been on the frame I choose for cutting out old foundation (I am switching to foundation-less). 

After I was done brushing off the bees, I noticed a straggler that seemed to have her body stuck in a bit of wax and I studied her and thought either she was my queen or a newly emerging swarm queen, or that I had her confused with another bee. I know she had a long tongue. Then I lost her.

Anyway, in hopes for a speedy replacement, (since there were other swarm cells), might one of them emerge to be new queen? I'll be so sad to lose her- she was a good one.

Angie


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## BackYardPhenomena (Jul 11, 2012)

If there were capped swarm cells not supercedure cells, then the old queen is probably already gone. Either way the bees are already working on replacing her, since the original queen typically leaves with the primary swarm. This is the largest group that leaves and then the rest of the cells if not torn down by an emerged virgin queen can take off in secondary swarms that are much smaller.

1. So take an observation of your numbers. If they're low, then they probably already swarmed. 
2. If there are sufficient numbers split some of the cells amongst splits to raise your numbers.
3. Or cut out all but two cells for them to raise a new queen.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Capps said:


> I am not sure if it was her or not, but she may have been on the frame I choose for cutting out old foundation (I am switching to foundation-less).
> 
> After I was done brushing off the bees, I noticed a straggler that seemed to have her body stuck in a bit of wax and I studied her and thought either she was my queen or a newly emerging swarm queen, or that I had her confused with another bee. I know she had a long tongue. Then I lost her.
> 
> ...


Were you cutting out drawn comb in an active hive?


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## Capps (Jul 21, 2012)

dsegrest said:


> Were you cutting out drawn comb in an active hive?


Yes. I choose the frame on the very outside, which had mostly pollen and some drone cells. There was not really worker brood.


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## Capps (Jul 21, 2012)

Thanks, BackYard, for the reminder. I forgot that the original queen leaves with the swarm. Yes, it did swarm, about 4 days ago. And I lost that swarm up in a tall tree. So I lost that queen anyway. 

Then, I decided to inspect and remove swarm cells so that it doesn't swarm again. Now, I hope I left a few (I think I did) just in case there is no queen. I removed all of the swarm cells from the medium box, and when I started seeing them on the bottom of the deep, I decided I couldn't remove them all and that maybe I should leave some. It is that question of whether to let nature do what nature is doing.

Even though it swarmed, it is still very strong. Lots of bees and lots of brood. I was impressed by the pattern. I will give them more space when I go in the hive tomorrow. At that point, I will search for signs of a new queen.

Anything else I should look for?


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## BackYardPhenomena (Jul 11, 2012)

Watch for bees bringing in pollen- sign you have a laying queen.

I am not certain if I'd add more frames. It takes 25-30 days for a queen from egg to mate and then to start laying. I don't know what Carolina is like, but if my bees get too much room, and don't have sufficient population then the beetles move in.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

You might consider making a split or splits,,,If the hive is that strong and there are lots of QC's then they are in the mood to swarm,,,,If you split then at least you can control and retain the parts of the hive for further growth or you can wait it out, and hope they dont swarm with an unknown number of virgen queens that may be present....JMHO  good luck

==McBee7==


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Yes, a swarm cell with you a place her IF she mates successfully, and IF she isn't eaten on q mating flight, and IF she doesn't get lost and return to the wrong hive.

Which is to say she will probably replace the missing queen..


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## Capps (Jul 21, 2012)

BackYardPhenomena said:


> Watch for bees bringing in pollen- sign you have a laying queen.
> 
> I am not certain if I'd add more frames. It takes 25-30 days for a queen from egg to mate and then to start laying. I don't know what Carolina is like, but if my bees get too much room, and don't have sufficient population then the beetles move in.


Wow, I didn't realize that. 25-30 days before I'll have a laying queen following a swarm. Maybe I should just buy a queen. What does the hive do in the meantime? Are they still productive in collecting during the nectar flow? There is so much capped brood so I'm not worried about their survival, but just want to keep things moving.


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## BackYardPhenomena (Jul 11, 2012)

Bees do two things-- make honey and reproduce more bees. From my experience, a queenless hive has a lot more guard bees and are more onry, but seem to be just as busy as other hives.

I wouldn't buy a queen, but that depends on proximity any availability. If you do buy one make a 2-3 frame split with your current queen cells and put the new queen in with your current hive.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Is it a hard fast rule that a colony bringing in pollen does in fact have a viable queen ?


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## Capps (Jul 21, 2012)

laketrout said:


> Is it a hard fast rule that a colony bringing in pollen does in fact have a viable queen ?


I have the same question... I read that they will bring in pollen to give to the new brood (larve). So if there is no young brood there would not be a demand for pollen (no young brood = no queen). What I don't know is your question- wouldn't they bring in some anyway for future use, especially during high pollen flow?


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## Capps (Jul 21, 2012)

BackYardPhenomena said:


> Bees do two things-- make honey and reproduce more bees. From my experience, a queenless hive has a lot more guard bees and are more onry, but seem to be just as busy as other hives.
> 
> I wouldn't buy a queen, but that depends on proximity any availability. If you do buy one make a 2-3 frame split with your current queen cells and put the new queen in with your current hive.


Good idea, BackYardP. If they have already pre-decided to reswarm, will a split prevent it? (Or do bees change their mind?) Though I am mad at myself for losing that swarm and then killing off all the queen cells I am learning a lot from this thread.

I will inspect the hive in the next few days and make sure I didn't kill all of the cells, and then decide whether to split.

Thanks for all the input.


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## BackYardPhenomena (Jul 11, 2012)

A split should have a least one viable queen cell. I sometimes put two if there are enough to go around. Once you make the split, and they will not swarm. They may abscond, if there are not enough bees to protect the hive. 

I just decided to break down a really strong hive that was five boxes high because the primary swarm left--- which I caught, and there were 10 or more queen cells left. Made five splits. So out of one hive there will now be six small nuc sizes.


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## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

Well if no queen and a flow is on there is no need for nurse bees so they gather nectar like crazy.


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## Capps (Jul 21, 2012)

BackYardPhenomena said:


> A split should have a least one viable queen cell. I sometimes put two if there are enough to go around. Once you make the split, and they will not swarm. They may abscond, if there are not enough bees to protect the hive.
> 
> I just decided to break down a really strong hive that was five boxes high because the primary swarm left--- which I caught, and there were 10 or more queen cells left. Made five splits. So out of one hive there will now be six small nuc sizes.


I did it- I made the split. Thanks for convincing me. It really did seem like the most logical thing to do. I moved 2 capped queen cells into the split, and kept 2 capped queen cells in the original hive. There were a number of uncapped younger queen cells in the original hive and I'll keep those as back-up.

I did not make it even- I still want the first hive to be strong and bring in honey. I gave the new hive 3 deeps of capped brood and whatever nurse bees were on it. I hope that is enough. I hope the frames I pollen I added are still good- (they were from last year and I stored them in the house in light). I had some capped honey on a deep but most of my honey is on medium frames. (Now see why it would be so handy to have all medium). So, must they have honey or can I feed them sugar water?


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Capps said:


> I did it- I made the split. Thanks for convincing me. It really did seem like the most logical thing to do. I moved 2 capped queen cells into the split, and kept 2 capped queen cells in the original hive. There were a number of uncapped younger queen cells in the original hive and I'll keep those as back-up.
> 
> I did not make it even- I still want the first hive to be strong and bring in honey. I gave the new hive 3 deeps of capped brood and whatever nurse bees were on it. I hope that is enough. I hope the frames I pollen I added are still good- (they were from last year and I stored them in the house in light). I had some capped honey on a deep but most of my honey is on medium frames. (Now see why it would be so handy to have all medium). So, must they have honey or can I feed them sugar water?


So, let me see if I have this right...the hive swarmed, which means that you lost half of its strength, and then you split it...and you're still thinking you're going to have a honey crop?

This whole thread seems a little confused...and, I could be wrong, but I get the impression that this is not going to go well.


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## Capps (Jul 21, 2012)

Well you are right about me being one confused beekeeper. Sometimes I learn just enough to get myself in trouble, and don't put it all together until later!

But the original hive is still robust. Who knows, maybe the swarm was from another hive nearby? (I live in an urban lot, but the bees were only 20 feet away from my hive). It didn't seem as large as half of my bees. When I went back into the hive after the swarm, they were still overflowing with numbers (one deep full of brood, one medium 2/3 full of brood-, and one shallow filling with nectar, and bees covering them all, welling up at the top.)

I asked this in another thread but part of me still wonders if the swarm (which I caught and they left), if when they left they went back home, maybe, if I didn't have the queen. I don't know if that is even possible. I set the swarm 5 feet away from the other hive and they were gone the next day.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Wow, I didn't realize that. 25-30 days before I'll have a laying queen following a swarm. Maybe I should just buy a queen. 

You can let them raise their own which greatly improves your chances of getting a good queen and local genetics. You can buy a queen and the odds are she will be worthless and not local genetics. Even if you buy a supposedly laying queen she may take as long as a week to be released and another two weeks to start to lay. Letting them raise one is a better bet. No acceptance issues. Better queens. Better genetics.


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## Capps (Jul 21, 2012)

Thanks, Michael. I found your bee math page helpful. I figured since I found capped queen cells they have already begun the process so it shouldn't take quite as long.

What I don't get is why I see young larvae. The swarm was March 31st. I checked it yesterday, the 6th, and found lots of young larvae. So it is still a mystery to me.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What I don't get is why I see young larvae. The swarm was March 31st. I checked it yesterday, the 6th, and found lots of young larvae. So it is still a mystery to me.

If the queen was lost (killed etc.) on the 31st then the last of those eggs would be capped by the 9th. How small are the larvae? If you check on the 9th or 10th and there are no larvae, then you are likely queenless. if you still have young larvae at that time, you are likely not queenless.


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## Capps (Jul 21, 2012)

So, update. I checked the first hive and while I know I still have a few weeks before signs of the queen, what else should I be looking for or doing? Specifically, I noticed more swarm cells which had to be created from the larvae I noticed the day I did the split. Do I need to do another split to prevent after swarm? I waited to do anything because I know this hive is going to dwindle and I don't want to take to much.

Also, as the brood in the bottom deep is released, the bees are filling it with nectar. I suppose without a queen they are not keeping it orderly. Anything I should do or will things straighten out when the queen comes? Or, is this a sign they need more space (they are filling the supers with nectar pretty full too) but I wasn't sure if I should add a super since they are going to dwindle. They have one deep, one medium, and 2 supers.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So, update. I checked the first hive and while I know I still have a few weeks before signs of the queen, what else should I be looking for or doing?

Until 21 days after the queen should have emerged there is nothing to do really. If you feel nervous about it, then add another frame of open brood from a different hive as insurance in case the queen didn't make it back from mating...

> Specifically, I noticed more swarm cells which had to be created from the larvae I noticed the day I did the split.

I think it's doubtful you killed the queen, though not impossible. You think they are making MORE swarm cells? And you already did a split? There were already queen cells in both parts? 

>Also, as the brood in the bottom deep is released, the bees are filling it with nectar. 

They always do if there is no queen or if they are preparing to swarm.

>I suppose without a queen they are not keeping it orderly. 

Sure they are. They will clear a space for a queen to lay when they want a queen to lay...

>Anything I should do or will things straighten out when the queen comes? 

Bees have been doing this for millions of years. They know what they are doing.

>Or, is this a sign they need more space (they are filling the supers with nectar pretty full too) but I wasn't sure if I should add a super since they are going to dwindle. They have one deep, one medium, and 2 supers.

Assuming they are crowded and booming it would be a sign they are swarming. Assuming they are dwindling and queenless, it would be a sign they are just backfilling it because they don't need it for brood right now.


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## Capps (Jul 21, 2012)

Later in the day when I sent my questions, they swarmed. I didn't see it but the neighbors told me all about it. I was discouraged, because I figured the split I did would prevent that. But I checked the hive again yesterday and they still have robust numbers. It couldn't have been half or more of the hive leaving! Maybe after swarms are smaller? I was glad to see numbers, but now I need to decide what to do to prevent another swarm. First, to answer your question, Michael:

>I think it's doubtful you killed the queen, though not impossible. You think they are making MORE swarm cells? And you already did a split? There were already queen cells in both parts? <

Yes, they did make new swarm cells. The reason I know is that I scraped off almost all from the first set, (because I was confused), not knowing that these are actually the cells they need for a new queen. But glad I left a few. After I realized my mistake, I looked and was grateful that I had not removed them all. That is when I did the split, though it was not an even split- I took 3 frames of brood with a couple of capped queen cells, and I was sure to leave capped queen cells in the original hive. Then, later, I saw even more swarm cells.

Thanks, Michael, for answering my question about the nectar. It is reassuring that they will keep order and will just move it where they need to when the queen begins to lay.

Timing is everything!! Yet I don't have clarity on a few things as far as timing:

1. I have been under the impression that the first thing a virgin queen does is to sting all of the other swarm cells, which makes me nervous because there are no back-ups if she doesn't return from her mating flight. However, maybe she will kill them after the mating flight? The Queen Must Die says this is what happens with superceedure virgins. But it doesn't specify what happens with swarm cell virgins, unless I haven't read that part yet.

2. Well, Beekeeping for Dummies says "a colony will not swarm if it does not have capped brood equal to the number of bees swarming." Maybe, finally, since the brood is dwindling, the bees will stop swarming. It also says "when 7/10 frames are drawn comb then add another super." I should have applied this a month ago (if my morning sickness hadn't prevented me from being on top of it! Most of my comb was drawn to begin with). But now how to apply this when I also know the hive is dwindling... To add or not to add? I do not have much problem with hive beetles, so in one way it wouldn't hurt to add. Yet, last year it seemed like added to fast and had frames and frames of nectar but not as much capped honey. My thought is to just add one- they are going to need that space when the move the nectar up anyway. Everything is drawn and there is still some space but with at least half full of nectar everywhere... I can always take it off.


<Assuming they are crowded and booming it would be a sign they are swarming. Assuming they are dwindling and queenless, it would be a sign they are just backfilling it because they don't need it for brood right now.>

Yeah, all of the above was happening. That explains it!

Yesterday I took on more frame that had just a little bit of brood and one capped queen cell and moved it over the the split hive... I figure I might as well give them a back-up queen since I have extra queen cells.

Your book is next by the way.

Angie


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Capps said:


> Yesterday I took on more frame that had just a little bit of brood and one capped queen cell and moved it over the the split hive... I figure I might as well give them a back-up queen since I have extra queen cells.
> 
> Your book is next by the way.
> 
> Angie


I usually try to hedge my bets, especially with bees.
I try to pull a frame of brood & start a nuc from "good" hives early in the season, just in case something happens to my queen ( if she was overwintered, she will be superceded, probably when I cant get a commercial replacement, & who knows who or what the supercedure queen mated with. but it is the same with my early nuc). but, I can only "save" one queen per box/colony/how ever you say it. I have not master queen mass production or banking ... yet.
You gave the nuc an additional queen cell, but likely, the nuc will only produce one queen.
good luck with your bees. CE


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>1. I have been under the impression that the first thing a virgin queen does is to sting all of the other swarm cells

Yes.

> which makes me nervous because there are no back-ups if she doesn't return from her mating flight. 

If you and I designed bee biology we would probably look for more insurance. But that's not how it works.

>However, maybe she will kill them after the mating flight?

No. She will kill them before.

> The Queen Must Die says this is what happens with superceedure virgins.

That is an entirely different scenario. Virgin queens are looking to kill virgin queens. Laying queens aren't looking to kill anyone.

> But it doesn't specify what happens with swarm cell virgins, unless I haven't read that part yet.

The first one out kills the rest of the virgins, usually still in their cells. It could take an hour or a day, but before she flies off to mate they will all be dead.

>2. Well, Beekeeping for Dummies says "a colony will not swarm if it does not have capped brood equal to the number of bees swarming." Maybe, finally, since the brood is dwindling, the bees will stop swarming. It also says "when 7/10 frames are drawn comb then add another super." I should have applied this a month ago (if my morning sickness hadn't prevented me from being on top of it! Most of my comb was drawn to begin with). But now how to apply this when I also know the hive is dwindling... To add or not to add? I do not have much problem with hive beetles, so in one way it wouldn't hurt to add. Yet, last year it seemed like added to fast and had frames and frames of nectar but not as much capped honey. My thought is to just add one- they are going to need that space when the move the nectar up anyway. Everything is drawn and there is still some space but with at least half full of nectar everywhere... I can always take it off.

The 7/10 rule is for a hive in the buildup. Not one that is dwindling.

><Assuming they are crowded and booming it would be a sign they are swarming. Assuming they are dwindling and queenless, it would be a sign they are just backfilling it because they don't need it for brood right now.>
>Yeah, all of the above was happening. That explains it!

They can't be crowded and booming while they are dwindling and queenless...


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## Capps (Jul 21, 2012)

"They can't be crowded and booming while they are dwindling and queenless..."

Only the brood is dwindling, but the population is still booming. So I anticipate the population to dwindle as they die off, though it hasn't yet. So while 7/10 is during build-up, they are building as brood is released, but will die off. I got a super ready to add and I'll just remove it when I feel they are starting to dwindle.


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