# TBH vs Langstroth hive activity



## Montyb (May 27, 2013)

We have one langstroth hive hived April 15, one langstroth and one tbh hived may 4. The tbh seems to fly earlier, later and have more bees and activity than the langs. has anyone else noticed this.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

Montyb said:


> We have one langstroth hive hived April 15, one langstroth and one tbh hived may 4. The tbh seems to fly earlier, later and have more bees and activity than the langs. has anyone else noticed this.


 Yes I have noted the same thing. I attributed it to the fact that my TBH hives are higher off the ground with more screen bottom area than the Langstroth, therefore more light inside the box.


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## Montyb (May 27, 2013)

I don't have a screened bottom board. I just think they're happier doing their own thing. Building the hive without us forcing them to build the way we want??? Maybe???


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

you could be right, Be interesting to watch them over time, but I do have multiple hives of both TBH and Langstroth and when people ask why I have both, I say I have TBH to raise bees I have Langstroth to make honey. I think TBH is a better box for a hobbyist But for me the combination of the two are a lot of fun. I think you will enjoy having both.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

Or you could do this: http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/Thomas_J_Janstrom/IMG_06211_zpsd7884bd0.jpg 

The white super is a Lang style framed super: http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/Thomas_J_Janstrom/IMG_06171_zps6f4f8432.jpg (in practice there is one fewer frames than this pic shows).

This hive is WAY more active than my plain TBH, though that might be an age thing as the hybrid hive is a few weeks older. Next hive will be a straight out Lang, for no other reason than I want to try it and see.....


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## solarguy (Jan 10, 2013)

I have one of each. The tbh appears to be busier, but when I estimate how much comb they have each built, it is a very close race. They both started from package bees from Wolf Creek on ~foundationless frames with a few wax starter strips. In terms of numbers of bees leaving and entering the hive, the tbh is routinely (SWAG) 15-20% busier.

troy


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Wow that's pretty cool Praxis, I'll bet that sucker will make a mountain of honey!

If you put that box on foundationless the bees will be very reluctant to move in cos they'll have to break cluster to get to the top of it to start comb building. You really need one or two already built combs in the box built right down to the where the bees are in the lower box as a "bridge" for the bees to start working on & find their way to the top of the box.

I can see two things with it that (in my opinion) could be improved. The entrance is rather small for a hive that size & could get congested on a busy day, and secondly, the opening between the bottom and top area is a bit restricted I think they will do better with a larger connecting area. 
The small entrance / restricted gap between areas combo, could make the hive more swarm prone. But hey, pretty cool even as is & please report back on the honey harvest.



Montyb said:


> I just think they're happier doing their own thing. Building the hive without us forcing them to build the way we want??? Maybe???


Not totally true LOL, a large part of TBH keeping is about forcing the bees to build the combs where we want them to, rather than the curved patterns they would prefer if allowed to do it their way.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Montyb said:


> I don't have a screened bottom board. I just think they're happier doing their own thing. Building the hive without us forcing them to build the way we want??? Maybe???


I don't understand why you think one hive design forces bees and another does not. Can you explain?


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## Montyb (May 27, 2013)

I was refering to the Langstroth hive which I put frames with foundation which forces the bees to build their combs according to the size of the cells in the foundation. The TBH has no foundation and although we are trying to force them to build straight comb they have the option of building cell size to their liking. You can see that by the increase number of drones in a TBH vs that of a Langstroth. I think an approx 18 % increase in drones. Which is fine, they do help to keep the brood warm, increased drones to try to mate with some queen. They get thrown out anyway in the winter. And the comment about happier bees was with tongue in cheek, my langstroth bees seem just as gentle and happy as the TBH just not as busy. monty in marquette


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> I was refering to the Langstroth hive which I put frames with foundation which forces the bees to build their combs according to the size of the cells in the foundation.

Even with a Lang hive, you can use foundationless frames if you feel the bees will be "happier" building comb to their own preferred cell size..


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

That's right. I have a couple of long hives using Langstroth deep frames, foundationless. I'm a newbie, but I really like them. They seem to have the best aspects of both TBH and Lang equipment, to me.










This one built up fast in the spring and has many frames of capped honey now, as well as a lot of bees.

But I have to say that if you don't have many hives, it's pretty hard to say for sure that one design is better than another, based on that limited experience. The hive above was started in late March here in FL, from a nuc. I have a couple hives in upstate NY that were started in late May, in Lang equipment, also from nucs. The former built up a lot faster than the latter in the first month, but it's been a cold and rainy spring in the North Country. I have another long hive here in FL that didn't build up as fast as the one shown, but it was made from a package, and it superceded its queen a few weeks after installation, so again, hard to compare. Doing pretty well now, though.

The long hives wouldn't work well for a commercial operation, but I think they have many advantages for hobbyists like me.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Wow that's pretty cool Praxis, I'll bet that sucker will make a mountain of honey!
> 
> If you put that box on foundationless the bees will be very reluctant to move in cos they'll have to break cluster to get to the top of it to start comb building. You really need one or two already built combs in the box built right down to the where the bees are in the lower box as a "bridge" for the bees to start working on & find their way to the top of the box.
> 
> ...


I'm hoping it'll let me harvest honey and save drawn comb. So far the biggest issue is getting them to move up, but there not being a flow on atm it's not something I'm too worried about as yet (still 2 months till it starts to warm up here in Australia). I had been wondering if I hang some drawn part filled comb (my regular top bars fit as it was designed that way) above the main cluster area if that would work.... The front seam between the super and the brood box is a 3/8" gap the full width of the hive, so I will when summer rolls 'round remove the reducer and let them have all the space they need.

Anyway that's about all I can add for now......


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Oh I didn't notice you are in Australia, well you'll be like me, middle of winter. The bees won't really want to move up till spring comes around anyway. But when it does, your idea with the combs should work well. Just, the bottom of the comb you put in the top box has to be virtually touching where the bees are, if it is out of reach for them you'll have some issues getting them started in the box. Soon as they do get started though they'll be away.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> your idea with the combs should work well. Just, the bottom of the comb you put in the top box has to be virtually touching where the bees are, if it is out of reach for them you'll have some issues getting them started in the box. Soon as they do get started though they'll be away.


Excellent! 

In the meantime I've been building hive bodies, I should have (heresy for this forum follows) 3x 1deep+2medium hives ready to roll come spring. Just have to hope I don't have to fill them by splitting my existing hives as I'd rather they get a good build up going..... 

Anyone know what's an applicable winter offering to the swarm gods for plentiful spring swarms?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Is there a natural early nectar flow where you are? If not just drizzle them a bit of sugar syrup from early spring every few days via a feeder to stimulate them. That's assuming you do want them to build up & swarm.

To me, relying on swarming is rather risky, after all your effort it could just disappear into the horizon, I'd rather do a controlled split.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Is there a natural early nectar flow where you are? If not just drizzle them a bit of sugar syrup from early spring every few days via a feeder to stimulate them. That's assuming you do want them to build up & swarm.
> 
> To me, relying on swarming is rather risky, after all your effort it could just disappear into the horizon, I'd rather do a controlled split.


The spotted gums will be beginning to flower in a week or three up north and over the following two-four weeks work it's way down to me, so not long really. (I've had to feed the weaker hive due to a robbing incident three weeks back, so .......)

What I meant by swarms was I'd like to catch some/one rather than split my two hives to make the three additional ones. All told one won't be an issue (it's small and has heaps of room in it's traditional KTBH) to expand into. The other (in the hybrid hive) on the other hand will need splitting as it's very strong, so won't take long once things warm a bit to be at bursting point.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Sounds good. Anyway do let's know how the honey crop goes when it happens.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Montyb said:


> I was refering to the Langstroth hive which I put frames with foundation which forces the bees to build their combs according to the size of the cells in the foundation. The TBH has no foundation and although we are trying to force them to build straight comb they have the option of building cell size to their liking. You can see that by the increase number of drones in a TBH vs that of a Langstroth. I think an approx 18 % increase in drones. Which is fine, they do help to keep the brood warm, increased drones to try to mate with some queen. They get thrown out anyway in the winter. And the comment about happier bees was with tongue in cheek, my langstroth bees seem just as gentle and happy as the TBH just not as busy. monty in marquette


Thank you for explaining what you meant.

"they do help to keep the brood warm" According to the Encyclopedia of Beekeeping it is written about drones that "During its lifetime it does no work in the colony, as far as is known.Drones are fed for most of their lives by the workers, using a 'begging' behavior to elicit feeding, but sometimes they feed themselves from the honey store."


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> "they do help to keep the brood warm" According to the Encyclopedia of Beekeeping it is written about drones that "During its lifetime it does no work in the colony, as far as is known.Drones are fed for most of their lives by the workers, using a 'begging' behavior to elicit feeding, but sometimes they feed themselves from the honey store."


Just by respiring (burning) the calories consumed some heat is being produced, so in that respect they do "work" but they don't forage and when resources are getting harder to come by they really are a liability. That said I tend to let my bees figure out how many they want to keep around, and more often than not its the right number.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

This is true, I believe. I agree w/ what you wrote. Sitting here in my chair I am doing the same. I doubt that my busy wife would consider what I am doing as work. 

Having observed the amount of drone comb produced on foundation I believe that foundation itself does not always determine the amount of drone brood or adult drones in a colony.

If one could establish a TBH and a Langstroth hive w/ colonies of bees of equal strength and composition in all manners should one assume that one design would express more or less activity than another? I tend to think that the activity observed has something to do w/ the colony being observed.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> If one could establish a TBH and a Langstroth hive w/ colonies of bees of equal strength and composition in all manners should one assume that one design would express more or less activity than another? I tend to think that the activity observed has something to do w/ the colony being observed.


I would expect that all things being equal the number of drones would be very similar, until a near by hive turfs out its drones and they go looking for a new home that is..... I know I had drones from somewhere else in my hives this autumn these were very dark when compared to the ones my queens normally produce.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

I don't have any experience with a Langstroth but my two KTBHs had very different activity levels last year. The one hive I had of New World Carniolan bees flew earlier, later, and on colder days than the hive of alleged Buckfast bees. I believe there are a lot of factors that play into the activity level of a hive.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, different strains of bees have different behavioral characteristics.


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