# Trying to sell in a local hobby store, ran into some... problems.



## Moon

So the wife and I set up a little honey stand inside a store that allows local people to sell local crafts and wares. We only had 19 bottles on the shelf and all the label said on it was 'Raw Wyoming Honey' from Moon Apiaries. After it was on the stand for 2-3 days a woman who also has products for sale in the store raised a big fit about it. Saying we need licenses, insurance, inspection certificates, and that the whole process would take up to 3 months. So in the interest of avoiding conflict and getting this lady whipped into a tizzy we went down and pulled all of our honey off the store shelves until we talked to the food and health inspector. When we were in there this woman was there at the same time and started giving me the riot act on how honey and dairy products were the two hardest products to sell as a small mom and pop operation. She sold goat milk soaps and lotions as well as some herbal tea's and other products. She told me the risk of botulism from honey required special licensing to sell it. I told her that it was impossible for honey to contain botulism due to it's anti-bacterial properties. As a matter of fact I told her, honey is actually used in bandages for burn victims and is currently being tested to treat MRSA as it has showed promise in treating antibiotic resistant strains of the infection. She about went through the roof raising her voice telling me it was illegal to sell anything making claims like that and that the FDA would basically seize everything I own and fine me 25,000 dollars for even mentioning something like that. I politely informed her that she didn't know what it was she was talking about and she definitely didn't know anything about honey but that we would be happy to speak with the health inspector before returning our product to the shelf. She seemed combative about the whole idea to say the least.

Just wanted to vent figured you guys could throw your two cents in on the whole deal.

*edit*

Just as an after thought as I was re-reading this. She got upset and said the honey needed to be labeled as Raw honey. When we told her it was labeled as raw honey she got really upset and told us it was illegal for us to sell it as organic honey. I told her as nicely as possible there was no indication that we were selling or labeling our honey as organic or to pass it off as organic. She proceeded to tell me that unless it was certified as organic we needed to have the honey's expiration date posted on it. I tried to explain to her that honey didn't expire. In fact I told her that honey had been found in ancient Egyptian tombs that was 3,000 plus years old and was deemed to still be edible. She told me that was because that was real pure honey before insecticides and pesticides came onto the scene and now honey would expire after a few years due to the pesticides. I just gave up trying and figured the lady was batty.


----------



## mgolden

Google "Babies and Raw Honey"

http://www.babycenter.ca/baby/startingsolids/safety/honeyexpert/


----------



## Riverratbees

Sounds like a hatefull bitter old lady. Tell her the next time she talks the talk she can hire a attorney and you will see her in court cause she is definately a fool.


----------



## dixiebooks

To paraphrase a great lawman we all knew: "She's a NUT!!" -js


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Riverratbees said:


> Sounds like a hatefull bitter *old *lady ...


Hey, what's up with the nasty attitude about "_*old" *_lady? There was nothing _Moon'_s post that said anything about the woman's age! One day, _if you are lucky_, you will be old too ...

:scratch:

There are plenty of young people that have difficulty distinguishing between "holes in the ground", to use your phrase. Fear and ignorance are equal opportunity employers.


----------



## JRG13

Honey does contain botulism spores, it's why you can't feed it to babies. I would've told her to pound sand.


----------



## beemandan

She may have been planning to sell honey and she's upset that you beat her to it.


----------



## KQ6AR

In most states a small scale/hobby beekeeper can sell to the end user without any fancy licensing, or inspections. You might need to register you're hives with the department of Agriculture, & label you're bottles correctly. Honey shouldn't be eaten by infants under one year old because honey doesn't kill botulism spores, their bodies haven't built up an immunity to it yet. Honey doesn't necessarily contain the spores but it can.
You can find a lot of good info here, at the National Honey Board website- http://www.honey.com/nhb


----------



## AmericasBeekeeper

State laws vary. In Florida the apiary must be registered. You can only sell from your yard/farm, flea markets and farmer's markets, or get food safety licensing to sell in stores and other locations. The state, county, or city can confiscate it and fine you if not licensed at least in Florida.


----------



## gone2seed

mgolden said:


> Google "Babies and Raw Honey"
> 
> http://www.babycenter.ca/baby/startingsolids/safety/honeyexpert/


I am old enough to remember when this uproar started.We,the beekeepers,did not challenge this piece of nonsense and now we are stuck with it.It turned out that the real culprit was Karo syrup that was fed to the very few infants that developed botulism.There were plenty of articles in Bee Culture and ABJ at the time.


----------



## sweetas

You hit an old witch here. In Australian you can use a "use by" or "best by" . Kill one of her arguments by putting a date of say 3 years, by that time most people have finished the honey anyway. You may want o ask her if there "food" products are produced in approved premises. Her soaps could contain disease. Ask her for all of her certificate. 

Good Luck 

Geoff


----------



## Jeanette

Here are some some useful links regarding 'use by', 'sell by' and 'best before' dates for foods:

USDA http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Food_Product_Dating/
Australia (NSW) http://www.foodauthority.nsw.gov.au/consumers/food-labels/label-facts/best-before-and-use-by-dates/

The USDA information declares that "product dating is not generally required by Federal regulations" but then goes on to mention that some state laws may require product dating. If you voluntarily put a date on your honey, there is a prescribed format that you will need to follow. Pretty simple stuff - guidelines are on the webpage.

The Australian government website says that "All food with a shelf life of less than 2 years must be date marked." I checked a popular Australian-brand honey bottle and it only seems to have a 'packed date' stamped on it.


----------



## Jeanette

I also had a look for laws specific to Wyoming. From what I can understand, Wyoming considers honey to be a processed food. It also seems that honey falls into the category of 'Commercial processed' not 'Home processed' food which could mean getting a licence. You might like to have a look at these links for yourself:

Wyoming Dept of Agriculture 2012 requirements (see page 2) http://www.worlandchamber.com/communitymarket/foodsafety2012.pdf
Wyoming Farmers Markets (go to page 25) http://www.wyomingfarmersmarkets.org/How_To_Start_a_Farmers_Market.pdf
Wyoming Guidlines 2008 (see section 'When is a licence required?') http://www.lovellinc.org/images/FMGuidelines.pdf

*edit*

These links are focused primarily on Farmer's Markets. It could be worth checking with the Dept of Agriculture whether the same laws apply to selling from a stall at a retail outlet (the hobby shop).


----------



## efaure

Just my two cents...you did a great job handeling her and dealing with her rage. I'm not sure I could of done the same


----------



## Birds&Bees

Honey is the only product sold in stores without a best before date. Bottled water has a BB date.


----------



## matt1954

When I was in Law Enforcement, we used to say one word and define it. 

Stress---that overwhelming desire one has to choke the living snot out of someone who desperately needs it. Sounds like you ran up against one of those folks.


----------



## Jim Koenig

Unfortunately she is probably correct with regards to what the seller needs to do to put honey on a store shelf. 

I am not familiar with Wyoming's law but here in Wisconsin it is exactly like what she said. I was approached by a local store manager to sell my honey in their store. I checked into what I needed to do legally and it is pretty close to what she is describing.


----------



## sweetas

Get all the legal requirements right, ie labels and they look right and everything is covered. If you are asked by some-one who is isn't their business about a license, just say "of course I have". The itch had no right to rave on at you , she could have been helpful but chose not to.


----------



## KQ6AR

I know here selling wholesale to a store, & selling to the consumer directly are 2 different things.
Other than his booth not being maned I think he is paying for booth rental space, like you pay for space at the farmers market, flee market, or county fair which are legal. IE direct sales to the consumer.
Don't know if the person watching over the booths is taking a cut of the money other than the space rental.


----------



## Moon

Okay to clear things up on this, because I've spoken with the health inspector about it and even had him over to the house for a visit, (extremely nice and helpful guy btw) I'll tell you what I was told about Wyoming law on this matter.

There are certain regulations as to how my bottle must be labeled. For example the bottle can't say "1LB of Honey" on it unless I have a state certified scale that has been tested and calibrated to show that it measures correct amounts. I do NOT need a nutrition label of any kind because the product I'm selling contains only one ingredient and that one ingredient is obviously mentioned on the label. No other warnings disclaimers or information needs to be given about the product except for my contact information. An E-mail address or mailing address would suffice for this purpose.

As far as bottling goes the area in which I bottle the product must not be the same as my home kitchen. In fact the product needs to be prepared in a facility outside of my primary residence, however my garage constitutes outside my primary residence; but, I would be unable to park any vehicles or store any type of chemical in the garage if processing of the product were to occur their. I.E. No gasoline cans, paint cans, lawn mower, WD-40 etc... In addition to preparing the product outside of my primary residence/kitchen the area I'm preparing the product in must be able to be easily cleaned. All surfaces must be easily cleaned (no bare wood exposed, all walls must be framed and either sheet rocked with a semi gloss/gloss paint or covered with some type of paneling. Floors must be either tiled, laminated, etc...) Four sinks with running water must be supplied to the area. Three sinks need to be available with a size able to accommodate the largest utensil or item that will be in use in the area. If the biggest item I'm using that needs washed is a spatula all I need is three sinks able to accommodate the spatula (something like an extractor or bottling take would be considered a fixed item/appliance like a stove that could be cleaned in place). The fourth sink is a sink that is specifically designated for washing/cleaning any persons hands.

God bless loop holes, because the loop hole in this licensing process is I only need this license if I'm using a third party to sell my product. Grocery store, hobby store, whatever. If I'm selling the product directly to the consumer ( road side stand, craft show, door to door, etc...) I don't need the license and can package it however I see fit. I don't know what the legal liabilities are selling honey this way and I'll need to investigate it further, however, this is just the information given to me by the inspector and what I've gathered so far. Any questions comments concerns I'd be happy to answer them or indulge in any more debate about the subject. Let me know what you girls and guys think.


----------



## Jeanette

Thanks for letting us know how you got on, Moon. It sounds like that inspector was very helpful to take the time to talk you through all those legal requirements.


----------



## Moon

No problem, yeah the inspector was a really nice guy and very informative. Pretty cut and dried on what I needed to do and was more then happy for me to call him if I had any questions or wanted him to swing back by to see how I should set my honey house up. I don't have the money to insulate, rock, install sinks, and run water out to my shed this year so I think I'll just extract and bottle everything and the sell direct to consumers at craft shows (which according to the inspector is 100% legal, I just can't use a 3rd party). Lesson learned in any case.


----------



## danmcm

sounds like my states rules almost exactly. I'm guessing much like my state theres enough loop holes that you can do what you really want to do.


----------



## Moon

danmcm said:


> I'm guessing much like my state theres enough loop holes that you can do what you really want to do.


You read my mind =) I already figured a work around for selling the honey. We're going to market lotions, raw bees wax, lip balm, etc... Non food products in the store (because they don't fall under state regulations for food) and then just put up a sign that says, "If you're interested in RAW, LOCAL, HONEY call us at ###-###-#### for pricing and availability. _*NOTE* Raw honey is seasonal and may not be available at all times of year_" Or something to that effect. Which according to the inspector is completely legal since I'm selling directly to the consumer and not through a third party. We'll see. Good thinking though danmcm


----------



## cerezha

Moon said:


> ...according to the inspector is 100% legal, I just can't use a 3rd party...


 I do not understand "3rd party". My understanding as follow:
1st party you, who made a honey; 2nd party is who purchased bulk honey from you with intention to re-sell it to the 3rd party, store etc. If you sell directly to the store, there is only two parties - you and store manager. I am just thinking if there is loophole in your inspector logic? It looks like if you sell directly to the store, 3-party rule may not be used. Is this right? Also - if you have a stand in the store and sell by yourself - it is only one party - again, you should be OK.

Regarding sanitary rules - I think it is reasonable to require to have clean facility for eatable product.
Sergey


----------



## BeeGhost

Cerezha,

If he sold to the store (1 and 2 parties) the third party would be the consumer that buys the honey from the store.
Two party is him selling directly to a customer.

Now if he was to sell a bucket of honey to a customer and that customer bottled it and sold it, would that be considered a third party sell?

What if the said seller didnt know that the customer had intentions of "cutting" and reselling the honey?


----------



## Daniel Y

As for the idea of how you are harming other businesses argument. I woudl actually ask her to set down and explain to me in detail exactly how I can do that. In fact if I could I would make it impossible for anyone and everyone to be able to sell one drop of honey. It is called competitions. and I would pay big bucks to be that good at it. Many would pay me really big bucks to work for them being that good at it. I find that when people want to claim I am inconsiderate and hard hearted. showing them just how heartless I can be is educational for them. Would I run Mom and Pop out of business? You bet I would. I would make selling honey on the same scale of someone thinking of making the next ipod type technology. very few would even consider trying.

Once I had this woman unquestionably believing I desire to run every mom and pop out of business. I woudl then drop hints that since it doesn't really look like i can do that. maybe I will take up selling soaps as well. Maybe just running her out of business will be satisfactory.


----------



## alblancher

Seems like what you discovered is the basics of a commercial kitchen. Did he talk about proper procedure for cleaning utensils and safe food handeling? Good info!

Maybe not having a third party involved leaves the liability trail directly in your lap. There is no one else to blame a problem on! 

All this information is available but you have to work hard to find and understand what is appropriate for what you want to do and where you want to do it.


----------



## cerezha

BeeGhost said:


> If he sold to the store (1 and 2 parties) the third party would be the consumer that buys the honey from the store.
> Two party is him selling directly to a customer.


 - I got it, thanks for clarification.



> Now if he was to sell a bucket of honey to a customer and that customer bottled it and sold it, would that be considered a third party sell?


 - I quess, it is called capitalism, making money from money, not creating additional product... nothing personal.


----------



## KQ6AR

Basically you have to sell to the end user, its the same where I live. I know beekeepers who hire people to sell at farmers markets for them as there representative. 
You just can't sell it for someone to re-sell it. Or sell wholesale which is the same thing.


----------



## Lburou

Moon said:


> ...snip...After it was on the stand for 2-3 days a woman who also has products for sale in the store raised a big fit about it...snip...


I wonder, has this person of unique personality properly passed those same hoops? Inquiring minds want to know....


----------



## Moon

No the third party isn't the consumer. The Consumer is always the second party. I being the first party, selling to the consumer being the second party. If I were to use another party to sell to the consumer the consumer is still the second party they are just going through a middle man (i.e. the third party) to purchase the product. Hence the term, using a third party to sell my product. The sell doesn't become the second party and the consumer the third (they do if you're looking at the chronological time line in which the product is sold) they are simply the middle man overseeing the transaction and subtracting small fee for mitigating it. As I am to understand it.



Lburou said:


> I wonder, has this person of unique personality properly passed those same hoops? Inquiring minds want to know....


From what I gather yeah she has had to jump through the same hoops; however, to hear her tell the story she's done it kicking and screaming and is constantly butting heads with the inspector. In fact, she told me not to believe everything the inspector said because he's not god and his word isn't law (uhm... yeah it is?). She said she ends up getting into arguments and snafu's with this guy all the time because he just doesn't know what he's talking about and she's constantly having to fight with him on everything. Which that in and of itself blew my mind because the gentleman I spoke with was extremely knowledgeable, insightful, and helpful. So I'm not sure what this woman's problem was. Just looking to cause problems?


----------



## Steves1967

I have been looking into this extensively here in Oregon. We have a 20 hive rule that says that less than twenty hives you can bottle and sell retail without any sort of commercial kitchen. Wholesale production and over twenty hives require commercial kitchen and food producer lisence, but even the people from the state agency that oversee it admit that there is contradictory language currently on the books. The lady I spoke to flat out told me that they really don't have any interest in policing small honey producers at the farmers market.


----------

