# Beekeeping as a living



## swabby (Jun 6, 2008)

This will not directly answer your question ,however I have been in row cropping ,chicken,beef cows and hog farming .I have never been a commercial beek, but I see very little difference in the gamble of the corp paying off. Rain ,sunshine , timing,disease, (the biggie ) management, all play a roll in each day of a farmers life . Good luck.


----------



## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

I think it would depend on how much you need to live on. If you have no mortgage payment, no car payments, etc then you would require less then someone that does. That said here are some basic factors.

In beekeeping you will be spending lots of money up front. Hives, bees, misc equipment, trucks, swinger, etc. Thats just to get the equipment. Then you need to find productive yards. Then you need harvesting equipment. Then you will need a market for your honey. You can sell some at a farmers market but eventually you will probably be selling to packers so you will need contacts there. If you are going to do pollination then you will need contacts for that. 

To get going you can start out small and build up (advisable) or buy out someone but either way before you get started put in some time working for a commercial beek just so you have an idea of what it takes and to get some good experience so you don't suffer by making rookie mistakes. Commercial beekeeping is much different then taking care of a couple of hives especially if your lively hood depends on it.


----------



## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

There was another thread on this not too long ago that might interest you.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221972

Sheri


----------



## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

It seems the "magic number" to be considered commercial is 300+ hives. The amout of income that can be generated by them varies considerably. That part of the equation was very accurately described by swabby's post. The only thing it does not really count is any regional cost differences. With the number of variables involved it is really difficult to even give you any ball park numbers. Based on my experience in my area and considering my regional costs, that magic number would probably work OK for a single person, a couple with no debt could probably "get by on it", but it would be tough for a family of 4 to survive on.


----------



## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

Sideliners with 350 hives can do very well while teaching during the other 9 months of the year. Excellent income source for full time teachers. OMTCW


----------



## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

I would think you would have to be debt free, work really hard on marketing, retail all your hive products and live extremely frugally to make 300 hives support a family. Most commercials I know have a minimum of 800 colonies, which is about the limit one man can reasonably run himself, with maybe some help, either hired or family, with extracting. Even that size operation often has additional spousal income. Most family run operations I know of where both partners participate have upwards of 1500. The last few years they have sized their operations in truckloads, trying for most efficient shipping to almonds.

Sheri


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> 800 colonies, which is about the limit one man can reasonably run himself, with maybe some help, Sheri


Now that's what I'm talken about.


----------



## cow pollinater (Dec 5, 2007)

Yeah yeah Keith, but your ego's big enough for three so it's like constantly having hired help everywhere you go.


----------



## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Here, I am told about 400 would sustain a family of 4 if the equipment is paid for and no loans or mortgages.
This allows for general up keep of the hives, replacements if you have a rough year, disease contol, cost of depreciation, taxes, insurance, and then the same said for the honey house and the equipment.

There would need to be a mind set change as well, when going from hobby to commercial. One of the changes would be bees as "pets" to bees as "livestock" and a business and handle it accordingly. A good pencil, a good eraser, to cost every move out. Cost out the expense of treating hives, or getting a sick hive healthy, cost of production, cost of expansion. Everything has to have a dollar value.
For example, for a hobbiest, a refractometer might be seen as a "not necessary" expense. The ability to rely on the capped quality of the honey is enough. However for a commercial producer, a refractometer could mean the difference of getting a load turned away at the dock or the border, or getting a paycheck.


----------



## Mathispollenators (Jun 9, 2008)

If I keep reading this thread I'm going to kill myself and will my bees to somebody the 3rd world where ever that is. I read somewhere you could make alot more money with alot less effort in almost anything else and that's true. But as far as hive count I would say 1000 but the hives are a small part. It's all the other things we need that is the real cost of making a living in the bees. Try adding up the cost of building and equipment for a commercial honey house and see how quickly all this adds up. I can tell you we just spent right at 100 thousand just building a 100x50 honey house. I'm also a blockmason so I did most of the work myself saving us a bundle an option lots of us wouldn't have. Then you can add up the cost of the trucks, trailers, lifts, and other odds and ends and now we are puptting a dent in Bill Gates bank account. 

lol Oh man I gotta get out of here thinking about this is too much. lol

Good luck and think before you leap and don't quit the day job


----------



## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

LOL, Keith, I am assuming this family business wants to spend a little quality family time together, not work like crazy people, not naming any names, of course.....
Yeah, John had about 1500 before he actually hired extra help other than for extracting, but that is a recipe for burnout for sure. At some point, and it would vary by location and type of business, loss of efficiency exceeds any gain you might see from additional colonies.
Everything is local, what works for one might not for another. People have different expectations of what is an acceptable standard of living. A good spreadsheet can go along way towards figuring out the numbers but I certainly wouldn't quit the day job without quite a bit of experience as a serious sideliner and/or working in a commercial operation. As honeyshack points out, the commercial mindset is entirely different than the hobbyist mindset.
Sheri


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> one man can reasonably run himself,
> Sheri


Key word being REASONABLY,..... But remember, were talking about Beekeepers. lol


CP, lol


----------



## swabby (Jun 6, 2008)

I'll just add a couple things . First and foremost if you are getting family involved with any type farming you have to motorvate and keep motorvating them or they will come to hate you for the work they have to do when other kids are having fun. Just ask my daughter or son . Second you must have some additional income to carry you thur the lean years and there will be lean years in any farming .You also must think about self empolyment taxes, cost of accounting, and most of all insurance medical and liabitily . That brings me to the point you must be in for the long haul ,thru good and bad times. If you invest into it you either have to stick with it the rest of your life or find some other fool to buy you out. I almost went in the dairy business until I realized 7 days a week 2-3 times a day milking without counting other little chores like haying when needed .A few things to think about .Have fun


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

I agree with about all said in above post. I could have 2000 colonies and would have struggled here in KY. Crops can vary alot and almonds along with going to Wi the last two yrs have kept me going. Here in Ky we have had 5 bad years where my yards are. Four bad droughts(03,05,07,08) along with a 100 yr freeze 07 have made my bees ave ONE yrs total production in the last five yrs. ( 95 lbs production over 5 yrs). Where in the preceeding 20 yrs I averaged 80lbs/yr. In 1982 my average was 300lbs. In 2009 and 2007 about 7 lbs. THe droughts were 100 yr droughts so I shouldnt have anymore for 200 yrs (lol)!! Honey crops can vary so dont depend on one location and you need experience so you can predict what lies ahead some what.(with 2007 and 2008 drought that went through fall I knew there would be no clover in 2009 so I moved bees to Wi.) I would say you need 500-700 if migratory, 800 plus if not migratory.


----------



## BeeAware (Mar 24, 2007)

What if one wanted to sell queens and nucs rather than honey? I'm not in a great honey area and have thought about selling only bees. Any thoughts? Besides, I enjoy this aspect of beekeeping more than honey production and sales.


----------



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

You can figure all you want, Buy a package for X dollars. they make Y dollars honey, fuel costs, free labor(yours), truck and building... ....untill CCD(the REAL thing, meets ALL the criteria). You buy new bees, put them in old equipment, work them all summer, they make NO honey, you feed them, and then they die.... How many hives like that can you support??? "Aunt Em, we ain't in Kansas anymore"
Cumm' on, Join in, but to quote Dirty Harry, "A man has gottsta know his limitations".

Roland
5th generation Beekeeper.


----------



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I guess one way is to start expanding and see where it takes you. I've expanded by making splits rather than borrowing money to buy existing hives, raising my own queens, selling honey, plowing the proceeds back into the company. I've made a bunch of hives out of scrap wood, bought a trailer of used hives, made some money and bought new.

The learning curve is what will get you. Twenty-five hives is more difficult than four, and getting to one hundred hives takes a different mindset as well. Then when you start keeping bees in different locations, I can guarantee you it will test your time management and your fuel usage. 

Somewhere along the way, you'll find out if you have the heart for it. I can't imagine a life without bees. You'll also find out how much money you can actually make, where your markets are and where you assumed they would be, how many bees live/die under your management style, how much honey is produced for your area, etc, etc.

As I've expanded, still keeping my family intact and showing up at my day job, I've run into the time constraint of selling/marketing honey against managing my hives. There are still only 24 hours per day in my world. Hired help is reliably unreliable and so I gave up and run a solo operation. I still think a bad day in the bee yard is better than a good day in the office. I still dream of retiring early and spending each day with the bees.

And then you have your lifestyle. Thank God I have a working spouse.

Grant
Jackson, MO


----------



## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

If you are thinking about getting bigger up to comm. size you should buy Grants
25 hives book. I have not found anything else out there with so many good insights about scaling up and what that really involves. Even if you bought out a comm. operation I think you would still want to read the 25 hives e-book.


----------



## Rohe Bee Ranch (Feb 12, 2008)

Sounds like winning the lottery would be a good first step.


----------



## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

If you can get your hands on a copy of A Living From Bees by Frank C. Pellett, author of American Honey Plants, you will find much valuable and timeless advice.


----------



## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

I can identify with Grant's approach. Keep in mind that I have four adult son's all of which help out in one way or another to lighten my load. I went from 20 or so hives to 100 in one year. It has taken me another year to learn how to manage hives on a larger scale. I initially had "dreams" of tripling or quadrupling each year. Now I realize that's not going to happen. While financial resources can be a big limiting factor for some, fortunately I have been innovative enough to find ways to make it a relatively minor limitation for me. Time management has proved to be far more critical. I now feel that if things go well through the winter, I may be in a position to handle 200 - 300 hives next year. We shall see.


----------



## dave28210 (Nov 10, 2008)

Rohe Bee Ranch said:


> Sounds like winning the lottery would be a good first step.



I'm working on that one myself. I'll keep ya'll updated on my progress :lpf:


----------



## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

Even if you won the lottery the 25 hives book would make managing all those new hives much easier. More to it than just $s and cents too.


----------



## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

Location, location, location. I started small and never left my day job till I was 55. I cultivated a market with sales at home. My price is half way between whsl and retail. I am 60 miles from 6 million customers. Most come and buy 60 lb or more. My furthest customer comes from Saudi Arabia once each year for 600 lb. My locations found or bought over 20 yrs produce superior quality honey. I am only 70 miles from my almond pollination and I got top price for strong hives. My max numbers were 450, but I liked operating about 250. With a small number and diverse locations allowed me to never feed or have a realy bad year. Also with fewer hives your honey house is smaller as well as storage buildings. Now retired and only a middle man in honey sales I can enjoy my grand kids with all this free time. Good Luck


----------



## pahvantpiper (Apr 25, 2006)

"Sounds like winning the lottery would be a good first step."

When a beekeeper was ask what he was going to do with all of his lottery winnings he pronounced, "I'm going to keep bees until it's gone."

That's how I feel this year. In 4 years I've gone from 10 hives to over 2,000. I made less honey this year with 2,000 than last year with 1500. I'm losing a lot of hives this year too. I outgrew my ability to manage so many efficiently. Next year I'm dropping back to 1,400 and maybe even below that the following year and I'll stay there until I have the locations and learning to bring my numbers back up. 

The learning curve is tough. If I had it to do over again I would go slower for sure and work for someone else first. I've made so many $costly$ mistakes it's embarassing. It's also not as fun as it use to be. I still like it better than anything else I've ever done though.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

pahvantpiper;463972 I've made so many $costly$ mistakes it's embarassing. It's also not as fun as it use to be. I still like it better than anything else I've ever done though.[/QUOTE said:


> Most of us first generation ( which includes me ) keepers have made many costly mistakes, But I would not be embarasse by them.
> 
> Heck, I make them all the time.


----------



## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

No really he does. I keep my costs way down just from learning from Keith's mistakes. :lpf: "Tip number 1 - when transferring a truckload of HFCS to holding tank make sure dispensing valve is closed."


----------



## beeman (May 27, 2009)

> Tip number 1 - when transferring a truckload of HFCS to holding tank make sure dispensing valve is closed.


Been there. :doh: Mistakes like those usually happen after a long night of moving bees and then something important, like a syrup truck, needing done early the next morning.


----------



## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Been a keeper for 40 plus years,got out in 1986, cheap chinese honey and a couple of poor crops did me in............... wandered in the desert with moses for 11 years,numerous different jobs, was looking for something and it was right under my nose, started up in 1997 with 60 aussie packages, worst bees I ever seen, full of chalk brood..... putting 800 into winter this fall, if all goes well............ there is no life or profession like making a living from bees, has it's ups and downs but so does everthing else....... I think maybe its the people you meet in this buissness that is the most interesting ....... there are so many different ways of keeping bees


----------



## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Reminds Me*

One morning we were eating breakfast in a cafe in Caruthers Calif. and a farmer pulled up and parked. This was early, still dark. He had the hose from his diesel tank still hanging out the side of his one ton. I heard later it was a 5,000 gal tank and he'd been gone a while. :shhhh:


----------



## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

*Re: Reminds Me*



Tom G. Laury said:


> One morning we were eating breakfast in a cafe in Caruthers Calif. and a farmer pulled up and parked. This was early, still dark. He had the hose from his diesel tank still hanging out the side of his one ton. I heard later it was a 5,000 gal tank and he'd been gone a while. :shhhh:


Ouch!


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Most of us first generation ( which includes me ) keepers have made many costly mistakes, But I would not be embarasse by them.
> 
> Heck, I make them all the time.


"Education is expensive."


----------



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

pahvantpiper said:


> "Sounds like winning the lottery would be a good first step."
> 
> When a beekeeper was ask what he was going to do with all of his lottery winnings he pronounced, "I'm going to keep bees until it's gone."


That reminds me of a sorry old question: How do you make $5,000 keeping bees?

Answer: Start with $10,000

Not that I necessarily believe it, but the first years are always the roughest. One of our beginning beekeepers started this spring with a $1,200 investment. They harvested three pints of honey.

Not too bad for their first year! But they were expecting much more, or at least believed there would be a whole lot more. Reality has a way of changing your perspective.

Grant
Jackson, MO


----------



## Wee3Bees Apiary (Feb 21, 2006)

That's about right... $400 per pint of honey excluding cost of the pint jars and label.


----------



## BeePuncher (May 25, 2007)

BeeAware said:


> What if one wanted to sell queens and nucs rather than honey? I'm not in a great honey area and have thought about selling only bees. Any thoughts? Besides, I enjoy this aspect of beekeeping more than honey production and sales.


Let me tell you about the guy who got me into bees years ago. Maintains 150 hives for some honey and nuc production and does queens all season long - he shoots for ten thousand pounds of honey for retail sales. Makes a decent living, nuc orders filled by early winter, first rounds of spring queens always sold out. Like any other business, the other factor will be reputation and quality, so I guess in that regard making nucs and raising queens is different than producing honey for income - if a person were a poor queen producer you wouldn't sell many after word got out that they had poor traits. Good luck!


----------



## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

Rohe Bee Ranch said:


> Sounds like winning the lottery would be a good first step.


 A friend and I always joked, but sadly this is probably true, that if we won the lottery we would keep bees until we ran out of money.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

"I should say that beekeeping is a good business to let alone, for the same amount of brains and energy that will make you a living at beekeeping will make more than a living at almost any other business."--C.C. Miller, A Thousand answers to beekeeping questions 1917 edition Page 18


----------



## dtrane14 (Oct 6, 2009)

there are few if any comments/recommendations regarding placing new colonies in an area that is most lilely rivaled by other keepers. practices, advertising, etc. not always that easy.


----------



## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Was talking to a couple of fellow commercial beeks the other day. One was telling of a new guy in the area that got into beekeeping this year. Took out a short term 20k loan to get his bees and equipment (just boxes, etc. no extraction equip, trucks, swinger, etc). Just harvested his crop. 3 barrels.  Hope he has another way to pay back that loan. 

Goes some of how we operate. If you can't afford to expand...wait till you can. Taking a loan on something as risky as a honey crop :doh: Anyway, thought I would pass that along to anyone thinking of getting in by taking a loan...it can work our but most times doesn't.


----------

