# If You Could Start All Over Again...



## Friday (Oct 27, 2009)

Hey yall

I'm growing my operation and want to make as much use of the collective experience as I can. Am trying to bring in as many suggestions as possible from the commercial guys who've been doing this for decades. 

My question for you experienced guys... what would you change or do differently from the get-go if you could start over again with a clean slate? 

Some of the suggestions I've heard so far include using all mediums and dipping rather than painting. 

Thanks!

Jeff


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Friday said:


> what would you change or do differently from the get-go if you could start over again with a clean slate?
> Jeff


Never start.


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

spend a season with a commercial beekeeper. I learned more in Three months working everyday with them then I did by myself and going to bee meeting for 10 years.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Marry the daughter of an extremely large beekeeper who happens to be without sons. 

Jean-Marc


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## Grid (Jun 5, 2009)

I'd go with 8 frame mediums, natural cell size, and top entrances, as per Michael Bush: 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm

The more I do things with full deeps (heavy!), bottom entrances, etc... the more I realize that Michael's approach fits me well. At least I think so! Next spring, I will start finding out. In a year or two, my response to this question could very well be different.

Cheers,
Grid.


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

I look back at my 30 plus years in the bees & realize I am at this point in life due to the good memories of life with the bees.
Also I realize that one must learn from there mistakes & move foreward from those mistakes.
Then there is the applied common sense aspect of this business.
Yes I know there is a very large part of public that has no clue as to what common sense is or what it should be used for!!!!!


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Build the honey house bigger than planned


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

rainesridgefarm said:


> spend a season with a commercial beekeeper. I learned more in Three months working everyday with them then I did by myself and going to bee meeting for 10 years.


What rainesridgefarm said. Plan on lots of expenses up front. Plan on long days and hot, heavy work. 

Figure out your market (wholesale or retail) before you start so you can project your earnings. 

Plan on spending more then you earn for the first couple of years...if you get lucky.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

Half the fun is figuring some of that out yourself!! Nothing feels better than overcoming a huge disappointment and fixing it... ...that feeling of elation when after a bad year you crack open the hive in May and see that beautiful honey dripping down a full frame....

I'm not so sure that I'd change a whole lot if I could start over. But I can tell you where I'm at and how I got here, and what my current preferences are, though....

....well...maybe I'd have held out for a bigger extractor...


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

i agree never start. married to the business all the time. but there are rewards


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

"married to the business all the time"

I'm not a beekeeper, but I am a small business owner (with three other owners). I can tell you that its the same no matter what business you own, if you want it to work. The alternative is to work for somebody else, and that's a bummer.


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## Nan3902 (May 18, 2009)

Don't get all nuts about it. I took a 2 day course at Cornell and bought me bees the nest day (package), sat on the floor in my living room and pounded them together (the boxes), put the bees in, watched them, got stung alot, bought the books and read, watched some more, added honey supers and got 3 quarts of honey. I bottled them in 4oz. muth bottles and gave them to all my co-workers who were nice enough to ask about my bees since I got them (5/09). The bees and the bit of honey made me happy. 

ENJOY YOUR BEES ! Don't get all nuts about the process, just do it.

Nancy
Ovid, NY


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I guess I'd start right away raising my own stock and stop chasing the elusive mega honey crop.

Bees are cheaper than honey to produce. Learn how to winter your own northern stock, and sell it in the spring. Prices are high, and the demand is really unlimited...for quality.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

I agree with almost all of the above...especially about marrying a beekeepers daughter with no sons(proviced she is good looking, can cook among other things lol)but I would use all med 10 frame boxes for brood and honey so everything is interchangeable. Best other suggestion is to work with a good commercial beek for a [email protected]


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

Could take some lessons from fatbeeman. He's pretty knowledgeable.


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## Friday (Oct 27, 2009)

Hey ya'll

Just to clarify, I grew up in a commercial migratory family. I am aware of the pitfalls and hardships and all that's involved.

What I am looking for here from the experienced guys, is the "man, if I could go back in time, I sure would've done..(x)..differently!"

thanks guys,

Jeff


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Been a better bookeeper, better analyst of practices and costs and their benefit and risk. I never did learn to really control my business, I just do the best I can with what I have. Keeping records, monthly profit & loss, cash flow projections, BUDGET< BUDGET< BUDGET...I never really applied myself to that and I think I have been limited as a result.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I like where I'm at, not one to lament over bad decisions even though I've made a train-load.

If I were to do it again, I'd repeat the same growth pattern of build and reinvest in the business. However, I'd pay closer attention to the details and take my losses more seriously. I'd procrastinate less and make more time for my bees. Now that I realize the potential of income and profits, I might take the business more seriously.

I wish, however, I had the courage to quit my day job and jump into this incredible hobby-business full-time.

My wife, on the other hand, doesn't think that's such a good idea. I'll likely trust her judgment on this one.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I just cleaned up some frames and pondered why I have shallow supers as well as medium supers.

If I had to do it all over again I'd go with all mediums.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

I'm with Grant, I would run all the same size boxes and frames. Deeps for me, some like mediums, and there are pros and cons to both but the versatility of everything being the same size is nice. I will be working in that direction this year.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

..... I would never buy any used equipment. 

Roland


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## Rohe Bee Ranch (Feb 12, 2008)

Build the larger 2 story honey house that I first wanted. Also build a super/storage shed 3 times larger than I have now. I originally planned to have 2-6 hives, but once I added my name to our local swarm collection list and the beekeeping addiction started, I have run out of room.  I now have to be very creative about how many jars and bears to buy ahead of honey season.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

Roland said:


> ..... I would never buy any used equipment.
> 
> Roland


There's a story behind that, what happened?

Also, would that include not jumping into the commercial beekeeping business by buying an existing one?


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

i will actually disagree with the buying of used equipment, i went with a lot of new stuff when i started and wish i would have gone with used, it is much cheaper, you dont have to spend time putting it together cause you will be busy that first year building up your bees, also with used equipment it will be drawn a huge plus! when you are trying to build up, the only thing with used equipment is to buy it from a good beekeeper with out AFB and stuff. Then after a year or two start switching new equipment into your operation. That is what i would have done different. 
Nick


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

Everyone experiences AFB eventually. Remember buying bees could be buying problems too. But trucks, extractors, barrels, I always bought used. Know why inspectors don't wear gloves? (Aside from being skilled). Gloves often transfer AFB spores... I have bought used equipment, my college (especially microbiology) tells me dirty gear could be bad.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

SgtMaj:

If I were to start over today I would consider buying an existing business. I would consider a strictly honey producing outfit. I would be prepared to move to another province /state. I would find a business that is situated in an area of high average crops.

Such a business might cost more because they have more honey supers per hive.

Jean-Marc


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## Pa Gray (Oct 1, 2009)

jean-marc said:


> Marry the daughter of an extremely large beekeeper who happens to be without sons.
> 
> Jean-Marc


funny I actually knew someone who did that


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Friday said:


> My question for you experienced guys... what would you change or do differently from the get-go if you could start over again with a clean slate?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Jeff


 How much are willing to pay for this information? Advice is worth what you pay for it and education, no matter how you come by it, is expensive. 

I don't know what I would do differently. Unless it would be to start w/ a bigger FSA loan, say $100,000.00 instead of just enough to but a couple of small operations. But I have spent the last 22 years or so getting to where I am now and I like where I am. I am in a position to grow if I want to or to sell more nucs if I want to.

So my advice is to know what you yourself are willing and able to do and invest in yourself. Work as hard as you are willing and able to and be satisfied w/ how well you do.

From what I have seen the successful/good beekeepers are willing and able to work as hard as their bees.

Jeff, what are you doing for work now? How much of a bee operation do you have now?


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

Well, nobody has said this, but it is obvious...

GET OFF THE TREATMENT TRAIN.

Don't throw chemicals on your bees and contaminate your wax/honey/equipment. You are going to lose some hives, but guess what, even if you drown them in chemicals you are going to lose some anyway. 

Start fresh with all new. You know what you have then. Use good stock and breed from that. Do not buy used boxes, etc. Go smaller on your comb size.

Nothing beats off disease like a good location and strong hives.

As far as transferring AFB, a hive tool can transfer just as well as gloves.

As far as Bush goes -- let me just say that he knows more about bees than I do -- but that top entrance thing just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. 
Dipping is better than painting. And as for 8 frame you have to decide if you can handle it or not. It is no problem for me to lift and is cheaper and less work at 10 frame. 

Working with a commercial beek is also a great idea. They can make it look easy.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

I would probably do something very similar Jean-Marc, but I think I would marry the daughter who was the only child of a multi-millionaire. Of course, the flip side to that coin is that if still stayed in bees, she wouldn't be millionaire for long.


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## greenbeekeeping (Feb 13, 2003)

Hmmm. I think I would change alot of things. I would have bought all W clip pallets instead of the U clip pallets. I would buy all shallow honey supers instead of having Deeps, mediums and shallows. I prefer shallows, I don't know why but i do. Also I think I would go oldschool and move away from plastic foundation for wax wired foundation. No plastic frames at all. Which is something I believe that I am going to start doing this next year. Good old wood and wax just like Dad taught me but without the eyelets because that just sucks. Haha. Also would of taken a job with a commercial operation that we could eventually buy out.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Hard to say, easy answer would be uniformity and streamline, but I didnt start with money, or the real answer on how I wanted to run my operation. It wasnt till after I ran with the various types of equipment and management strategies that I was able to focus on my way of running this business. 
All the different types of equipment is starting to get in the way, but think I have figured how I like to do things, so I will be investing alot of money to change things over.
And the change is to migratory pallets, w clips, two deep brood chambers and migratory lids. No more single hive yard layout, no more pallets and straps. Just migratory 4 way pallets, a skid steer and a flat deck.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I keep thinking about this question.

If I had to do it all over again, I would keep my "day job," but I would work in a field that gave me my summers off. Perhaps teaching would create a span of open time in the summer for me to dedicate the time to my bees.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## SMHC (May 15, 2009)

I think about this question all the time too, and, after reading most of the comments (and all the posts in the commercial forum in general), I was going to rephrase it: Which day job would you have picked?

I think teaching's the answer for sure, particularly if you can teach post-secondary and get off work a little earlier in the spring. If you want low dough/low stress, being a liftie at a ski hill wouldn't be too bad either. At least you'd get a free pass.


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## longrangedog (Jun 24, 2007)

An aquaintence of mine is a fireman and can count on having 3 to 4 days a week off. He has 100 to 125 hives, two terrific, hardworking teenage sons, locations in north Georgia for the sourwood flow and south Georgia for the tupelo flow. He's using the south Georgia location for early spring build up and splitting and going into nuc production/sales.


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## mcgarry (Nov 4, 2009)

I kept bees for 21 years from 1969-1990 then sold them to pursue other interests--the bees kept calling and after a 14 year hiatus I re-entered the business and this time started with all 8 frame deeps--I'm enjoying the sameness of all boxes and less weight to lug to the honey pallets during harvest. So, I'm glad I made the decision to go 8frames-all deep.


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## Riverdog (Mar 15, 2009)

Considering your main objective is to be persuaded one way or another, this is in no way meant to achieve that goal but hopefully you and others can celebrate the ideas. Beekeeping it really tuff no matter where you live. ( you already know that.) My wife and I have been in the bread bakery business for over 12 years, which is less tuff, yet really demanding. At our bakery we use A LOT of honey. So about four or five years ago I bought 25 hives, we now run 500. I bought a F550 16’6” flat bed and a swinger. I go to almonds, and we sell bees. I really don’t see how we can’t get by without all of these aspects. We only run doubles and we only use mediums for honey with wood frames with plastic foundation, and have plastic frames as back up. We currently run about ten locations. I pick a few new areas up each year. And last year I brought on a partner that still has a full time job yet wants additional income. I’ve bought enough new boxes to go to 800 in 2010. I want a better honey house but we just use that bakery at this point in the evenings during the summer but I’m contemplating on outsourcing our extraction process to another nearby keeper. (frankly I don’t want the facility, liability or cashed tied up for a process we only use for weeks of the year.) So far no major regrets yet I do wish I would of just bought a truck load of bees a few years back after almonds from some reputable keeper. Here are the finer points that you already know but asked for additional input: If you’ve read this far and your under 50 and don’t have a college degree stop everything and go get one. Get a degree in Business or Accounting. Then write a business plan. Get a SBL and start a business that eats honey all day long and night. Even when you’re sleeping it eats it. Then grow your bee business to match it. Buy new trucks or low mile trucks, new frames and boxes, and call me in the morning and tell me about it! Good Luck

Chad Ragland


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## AllTek (Apr 22, 2009)

I remember the feeling well. A decent relatively successful first year with my 50 or so hives (bought from a retiring beekeeper) and all winter was spent plotting my expansion (I lived in NY at this time). From there, over the next twenty years or so, there were many ups and downs. I managed, at one point to reach just over 500 colonies only to come out the following spring to find 40 hives alive (**** the mites). The long and the short of it is that I wouldn't trade any of the experience for anything (some of the most peaceful times I can remember happened in bee yards), but in the end the girls will break your heart.


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