# Requeening, but can't find the old queen!



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

:Swallowing my pride here: I've kept bees for some time but never had a queen so adept at hiding! We started with this NUC in April, have only seen the queen once in 90 days, she looked like a virgin queen a month ago. I'm ready to requeen with a Buckfast queen in a cage. I have gone through the hive twice each day for two days. The hive is Very defensive now (that is an understatement). 

I'm thinking of introducing the new queen directly, after keeping the cage in the hive for three or four days. After a few days with the queen cage in the hive, I think the bees will accept her, but when the two queens meet, which one will win out? The current queen superseded her mother a month ago, so she will be pretty fit.

I take precautions to store the queen cage safely overnight (inside the hive) and have squirted some water drops in the cage each day...After a couple days, she will smell good to the workers. Of course, I'll look for the queen again before I do the 'Hail Mary' and turn her loose to fend for herself.

Any advice?


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

I could guarantee I could find it for you, but you are a ways away. I have plenty of experience finding queens. I hope I say that with humility. I can find the queen in 187 out of 199 hives with out going through the hives a second time. They are not marked. Anyway, sorry about the deviation from the subject.

I am wondering if the original queen would be attracted to the cage because of the new queens pheremones. I would check in the area that is in close proximity to the new cage. Hope this helps!?


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Here are a few things which work for me on those hard to find queens 
1. If you have a double brood box, separate them, place the second on an empty super with an inverted outerlid to catch any fallen bees. If you have honey supers on, push the bees down to the brood with smoke
2. Take a step back and see where the bees go.
3. hunt Start with the box where the bees are flying too.
If this does not work,
Shake all bees into your bottom box, add the excluder, wait a bit for the bees to move up...smoke a bit if you can. Now you just have one box to work with

once in the one box, take alook at the frames as a whole. Remember the childhood sesame street song..which one does not belong, which one is not the same. Tilt the frame slightly downward when looking. It angles the bees a bit and gives a different persepective.

Take a frame of brood from another frame, no bees. Place in the hive, close up the box and wait. The queen in a few hours will find the frame because it will be the one thing which is not of her smell to mark it.

Next, if all else fails go back tomorrow, or later in the day. Keep that bottom box excluded so the queen is there and start again.


However, I have done this as a last resort:

Shake all the bees on the ground infront of the hive. ALL the bees. Place the bottom brood back in place, exclude and place boxes on again. Then let them march in. Watch the bees on the ground. Sometimes once they start the march she can be easy to find. 

Do not place that new queen in the hive until you are sure the old one is toast


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

honeyshack said:


> Here are a few things which work for me on those hard to find queens
> 1. *Lee:* *tried that.
> *2. Take a step back and see where the bees go.
> 3. hunt Start with the box where the bees are flying too.
> ...





westernbeekeeper said:


> ....snip...I am wondering if the original queen would be attracted to the cage because of the new queens pheremones. I would check in the area that is in close proximity to the new cage. Hope this helps!
> 
> *Lee:* *I have been looking for her near the queen cage, haven't seen her. Thanks for the suggestion, Ben. BTW, I had a lot of confidence when I started this queen hunt. *


*

Thanks for the help Tammy and Ben *


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Oh yeah, one other thought.

When all else fails, close it up and come back the next day. Or even in a few hours. Somehow the change in perspective just makes it that much easier, we find her right away and all we can say is "Doh"!
Take care and good luck


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## Bleemus (Jul 10, 2012)

If you are requeening and can't find the queen that you are going to kill I go straight to the shaker box.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

One way or the other, I'll be done tomorrow. I'll start by adding a strange brood frame and go to shaking as a last resort. Thanks again!


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

how did it go?


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Right or wrong, it is done. Had to modify my plans a bit as my vision was impaired. Impaired by two stings (one between my eyes and one on the end of my nose) mid day yesterday. It was like looking through a Halloween mask when I was a kid. 

I went frame by frame to begin with. No eggs anywhere and noticed a dozen queen cups I didn't see the day before!!! After destroying them, ( I have queens in a Shamrock S hive in reserve), I put a drawn comb in for a few hours this afternoon and didn't see a queen on it. I don't think there was a queen in there.....bees were uncharacteristically nervous and agitated right off the bat. The queen was released from the cage late today. I'll give them some peace and quiet and check in a few days for eggs. 


I think the queen that came in the April NUC was superseded a month ago. In case she hadn't been superseded, I went ahead and shook the hive, knowing the original queen probably wouldn't find her way back to the correct hive (No excluder available- I realize the shaking without an excluder was probably a waste of effort). 

Time will tell how things worked out. 

Thanks for your interest and help everyone!


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Well, Lee, keep us updated. Sounds like you are doing okay, except for the stings.  I really feel for you with those. Get well soon.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Thanks Ben. 

I really don't mind the stings. In fact I work without gloves to get my hands stung regularly to keep arthritis under the radar.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Yeah, I know that stings are good for your freind, Arthur Itis,  but on your face? Oh well; if you're content, so am I. You still have my sympathy.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Sorry about the stings.
I have a couple of questions
you said that they might have superceded her about a month ago. Would that be a cell started about a month ago or she emerged about a month ago?
you mentioned that they released her today...the same day that you worked the hive?
If yes, I hope (not to be rude) you have another queen in that lucky shamrock of yours. Why do I say that. Disturbing a hive right after the realease is a good recipe for balling. Time will only tell. Leave her for more than a few days. It could take a week before you see any eggs. So give them time 10d or so. Then check. By then some of the eggs will have hatched and the girls will be busy nursing them and the queen will have established herself in her colony. Too soon of entry and you might be back to square one
Good luck and let us know how it went


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Ben, I usually wear a bee jacket, just didn't while doing a simple 10 second chore to a NUC when I got stung. 

honeyshack, 
- I saw a very slender queen one month ago, too slender, I thought, for a mature laying queen, hence I suspected a recent supersedure as the NUC had not filled the first deep hive body in the first seven weeks. She could have slimmed down getting ready to swarm I suppose....Either way, I wanted less propoplis and more bees.
- I left the new queen cage in the hive for three days before releasing her. The bees were no longer aggressive toward her in the cage.

I will do better next time. Its been twenty years since I did all this before, the information available on the Internet today is a lot of help.

Thanks all


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

In a case like this I would probably make up a nuc for the expensive store bought queen until the qr status of the target is verified.

No matter what introing queens has an element of risk.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> In a case like this I would probably make up a nuc for the expensive store bought queen until the qr status of the target is verified.
> 
> No matter what introing queens has an element of risk.


Thanks David, I did think about putting her in a NUC, but didn't do it -the only queenless NUC I have is full of queen cells right now and I wasn't sure when they are going to hatch. Accepting the risk was easy enough. Don't like to be paralyzed be the fear of failure. FWIW, finding the queen cups overnight strongly suggested there was no queen in there.


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## HEV261 (Jan 2, 2010)

When I can't find the queen,no brood or eggs no indecation of a queen i will lay the queen in the cage on to and stand and watch for a while if no balling or being agress if none of that happens will spray with sugar water with HBh and all over top bars and turn her aloose an watch if she runs down in side and dont come bac up i the leave them alone a few days wors most of the time


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

*Success!*

Two new queens accepted. After 6 days, one queen still has the breeder's mark and the other doesn't. One hive has eggs, the other doesn't. Both hives are calm now.
How long do the 'marked' queens carry their mark? A long time ago, I have used finger nail polish...It did not go away in three years.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

*Re: Success!*

Sounds like one hive had a virgin queen and the new queen was killed. The non-marked (newly mated) queen will probably be laying soon. Marked queens usually stay marked.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

*Re: Success!*



Ross said:


> Sounds like one hive had a virgin queen and the new queen was killed. The non-marked (newly mated) queen will probably be laying soon. Marked queens usually stay marked.


I considered that, and appreciate your input here Ross. I found destroyed or hatched queen cells as you suspected. 

These Buckfast queen sisters don't look like my home grown queens. Either way, I'm good for the Winter I hope.


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