# Oxalic Acid Trickle Method



## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Is it liquid wood bleach?


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## Flewster (Nov 3, 2003)

Yes and the label says Oxalic Acid.........I saw this posted as being what to by for he trickle method but don't know how to do it.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

I personally would bring it back or put it in the garbage, dont use it in your hives. 

You need 100% OA as crystals, 35grams crystals to 1 liter water and 500 grams sugar. With a syringe trickles 4ml warm solution in each row of bees.


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## Sungold (May 11, 2003)

I believe what Flewster bought is pure oxalic acid. It is sold in the US as wood bleach. The product I have seen sold as wood is produced by The Savogran Company, Norwood ,MA.

Flewster,
I have known people to use this by mixing 3 grams into 1 Liter of very warm/hot 1/1 sugar syrup. Allow to cool, it is then applied by trickeling 50cc to a strong, double deep hive. (typically using a syringe to apply) I understand that this is typically done when no brood is present. 

I am not suggesting that you do this. I am just noting what I have heard others have done.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Is the concentration on the label? I've never found liquid oxalic before.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Flewster, if you had come to the meeting in Emporia (20 miles from you), two weeks ago, you would have heard ALL about it from Marion Ellis. His trials preformed in Nebraska are the same as posted by Axtmann.


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## renaud (Dec 15, 2004)

@ axtmann

your recipe is wrong. With the volume of the sugar that you add, the total volume will be higher than 1 L...and the concentration will be below 35g/L

here is a good recipe 35g/L AO in sugar 1:1 :

1) Mix 1L water + 1 Kg sugar in a big bottle (2L at least)till solubilisation.

2) Pour 35g AO in a 1L bottle, than add the sugar solution till 0.5L, Mix well (solubilisation...takes time), than complete till 1 L. you have now a solution 35 g/L in sugar solution 1:1 

@flewster

if you already have brood, you should beter wait next winter to do your test. Here is a good article for you.


http://www.apis.admin.ch/en/krankheiten/docs/saeuren/acide_oxaliqueBeeWorld.pdf

bye

Renaud

http://www.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_RL_2004.html


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

OK, Michael, you were sitting next to me, what did you hear?

I heard Marion say 35 gm Oxalic to one L 1-1 syrup. Prefaced with the fact that it was very hard to disolve the crystal in syrup, so they disolved in water first.

I really did not listen THAT intently to the recepie as my prefered method is to vaporize.

I believe that he also stated that a few of the colonies had brood, and there was no determinal damage to the bee population.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>OK, Michael, you were sitting next to me, what did you hear?
>I heard Marion say 35 gm Oxalic to one L 1-1 syrup. Prefaced with the fact that it was very hard to disolve the crystal in syrup, so they disolved in water first.

That sounds right to me.

>I really did not listen THAT intently to the recepie as my prefered method is to vaporize.

I'm afraid I was of the same mind. Vaporizing seems simpler, less work, more effective and less likely to get into the syrup and get spread to places it really shouldn't be, like fed to the brood. So I wasn't paying all that much attention to the details of the recipe.

>I believe that he also stated that a few of the colonies had brood, and there was no determinal damage to the bee population.

He said their experiments were very limited so far and they were working on experiments to try to quantify any damage to the brood, but I got the impression that they didn't see any significant problem with damage to the bees or the brood.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Here some recipes 

1.	You can treat with 35grams OA per liter and 500grams  1000grams sugar.
2.	You can treat with 25grams OA per liter and 500grams  1000grams sugar.
3.	You can treat with 42grams OA per liter and 500grams  1000grams sugar. 
4.	You can treat even without sugar; all recipes will kill more or less Varroa 

5.	You actually should forget about all this mixtures and vaporize the acid. Nothing can go wrong and you can do it anytime and as often as necessary.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Flewster:

When using the trickle method, bees must be broodless in order for the treatment to be effective. I would think that your hives have brood now. I tried the trickle method on some nucleus last fall and I think I may have overdosed some nucs. Some had small clusters so 5 ml between each frame of bees can be a double dose relative to a nucleus with a larger cluster.
I think the populations were negatively impacted because of this overdosing, however I hived the nucs and put them over strong doubles, placed a queen excluder and an inner cover turned upside down. The bees from the doubles went up and those nucs are doing very well now.

Jean-Marc


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## renaud (Dec 15, 2004)

@ axtmann

Of cause it will work with all the recipes you gave BUT : 

1) if you are below 35 g/L the efficacy will be less than 95-98% (in broodless condition of course)

2) if the concentration is higer than 35 g/L the efficacy will be good, but higher concentration seems to have an impact on hive development in spring (bees tolerance). 

3)without sugar in the solution, bee tolerance will be increased, but efficacy will be lower.


everthing is in the article

you also said : 
" you can do it anytime and as often as necessary" 

why do you want to treat anytime??? Do you know that the efficacy is only 15 % if your hive contains brood!!!! Treating 1 time a year in broodless condition is enough !!! you will save time, money... and avoid possibly resistance to AO. What would say your clients if they knew your are treating anytime??? ...sounds not good for beekeeping image!!!

bye

Renaud

http://www.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_RL_2004.html


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Lets look at all (3) OA treatments and how they work:
Vaporization: OA is vaporized (2g) and gets everywhere in the hive, including food stores, open brood, and on the queen. The bees inhale the OA vapors, they groom, they feed, they chew and re-work wax, etc. All of these activities put OA into the bees system, many by ingestion.

Spraying: OA / sugar solution (30g/L) is sprayed on to the bees, frames, honey, pollen, open brood, and on the queen. The bees inhale the OA spray mist, they groom, they feed, they chew and re-work wax, etc. All of these activities put OA into the bees system, many by ingestion.

Trickling: OA / sugar solution (35g/L) is trickled on to the bees, frames, honey, pollen, and maybe into open brood and on the queen. The bees may inhale the OA solution, they groom, they feed, they chew and re-work wax, etc. All of these activities put OA into the bees system, many by ingestion.

So, I would argue that all (3) methods work similarly, have similar effects, and even put similar concentrations of OA into the hives environment, Vaporization 2 grams, Spraying 1.5 grams, and Trickling 1.75 grams per treatment. Spraying and trickling my use less OA depending on the number of bees and frames they cover.

But, as far as putting OA into the hives environment and contamination, vaporization is not as target specific. Vaporization uses a higher amounts of OA per treatment to obtain the same effectiveness, simply because it is not as target specific in its application.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I would argue that putting OA into a sugar solution intices the bees to ingest more than vaporization would. When that syrup is not where the bees want it, they HAVE to ingest it to move it. They do groom the vapor dust with their legs and toung, but don't HAVE to ingest it.

One of Marion Ellis's observations was that the bees would stick their toungs out at the syrup and quickly pull back as if they did not like it. That tell me a lot.

And you CAN do it anytime it is necessary, as the treatment amounts are used in far lower amounts than we ingest when eating certain vegetables. If you have a hive in peril, three treatments one week apart will lower the varroa load enough for the hive to strengthen.


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

Another advantage to Vaporization You can do multiple treatments if neccasary eg treating during the brood season. 

With trickling or spraying a complete gerenation of bees needs to be changed before you can treat again.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

One of Marion Ellis's observations was that the bees would stick their toungs out at the syrup and quickly pull back as if they did not like it. That tell me a lot.

I think that this goes back to the mode of action for spraying or trickling. Whether it is topical or ingested. If the mode is topical, then whether they like the taste or not is irrelevant. If it is ingested, and they dislike the taste, then it would not work. But, we know it works.

From reports of observations of bees getting excited about being treated with vaporized OA, I would say that they dont like that method either.

Vaporization does not kill mites in sealed brood cells anymore than trickling or spraying. 

Why do you say that you have to wait for "a complete generation of bees to be changed before you can treat again"?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Whether you are spraying or trickling you are still applying the liquid topically to the bee. You are also applying the liquid to the inside of the hive and putting it where the bees don't want it. Therefore the bees HAVE to ingest it to remove it from where they don't want it. So to use either liquid application is to force the bees to ingest the acid. It MAY be a good thing, perhaps it is a treatment for T mites, perhaps there is no damage to the internals of the bee. At this time it is an unknown, they just don't know if it causes any damage feeding it to bees, but the indicators are that it does not reduce bee populations.

The caustic nature of the acid is what kills the varroa, it is a topical, corrosive action, that leads to the death of the mite. Since it can be applied to mites via vaporizing, why even subject the bees to having to injest the acid? I realize that bees will still come in contact with the vaporized acid in the hive and still injest some, but at least they won't have to injest as much as they would in the liquid form.

>From reports of observations of bees getting excited about being treated with vaporized OA, I would say that they dont like that method either.

The excitement is ventilating the fog out of the hive just as they would if you filled the hive with smoke from your smoker.

>Vaporization does not kill mites in sealed brood cells anymore than trickling or spraying. 

That is correct, in sealed cells, but it does kill more mites in open cells that liquid would not. Mites enter the cells with larva 2 or 3 days prior to being capped, those mites are subject to the vapor reaching them as the bees fan the fog trying to vent it out of the hive. The trickling method is more hit and miss as to whether it gets splashed into the cells.


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## mobees (Jul 26, 2004)

I trickled OA last fall on a bunch of hives to test it. I found that many of the colonies aren't building up as fast as the untreated ones of similar strength. I would be interested in learning how the OA vaporized colonies of others are building up.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I didn't notice any difference in the buildup of colonies treated with OA vapor. Of course I had no accurate way to measure any difference other than by eye. But there was no noticable difference.


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## mobees (Jul 26, 2004)

I was wondering if anybody knew if the injestion
of the OA syrup was done any different, than the condensed vapor. Bees are cleaning fanatics. Would the bees injest the syrup with their honey stomachs?

Does the mechanism of OA entering their systems pathways affect it's toxicity. Could the solid OA 
cleanup be less toxic to the bee??


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Here is a link that has information that maybe of use: www.apis.admin.ch/en/krankheiten/oxal.php

There are a number of studies and reports for various treatments.


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