# Sugar dusting



## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

confectioner's sugar


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Yes, the fine 'icing' sugar used for cakes has several names. Confectioner's sugar, bakers sugar, powdered sugar are all suitable for dusting.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Pretty sure this has been determined to be a waste of time. Very little bang for the buck/effort


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

challenger said:


> Pretty sure this has been determined to be a waste of time. Very little bang for the buck/effort


I saw trials which pretty much stated this... but then again, given the methodology, it basically looked like that was their intent all along.

In my opinion, if sugar dusting is to have an effect, it would require repeated uses over a long enough period of time, combined with a screened bottom board with a sticky trap. None of the sugar dusting experiments I read had this protocol. Even that may not do much of a difference, though, but I don't believe it's been proved not to.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

'Sugar dusting' is an example of a mechanical control sometimes employed against varroa. The sugar doesn't kill the mites, but interferes with the mite's ability to maintain a grip on the host bee. As a mechanical control, you may have to sugar dust _more frequently_ than if you were using some form of commercial/chemical control. Exactly how frequent is required for _effective control_ is not clear - hence the comments above.

The dust doesn't necessarily have to be sugar - this publication from NC State University also mentions dusting with certain pollen substitutes as an alternative dust.

The _Mechanical Control section starts on page 3:
_​http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/pdfs/2.03 copy.pdf


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

Someone told me you cannot use powdered sugar like confectioner's since it has corn starch in it. They said you need to make your own from pure cane sugar and a food processer. I have never done sugar dusting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powdered_sugar

http://candy.about.com/od/ingredientguides/ht/How-To-Make-Powdered-Sugar.htm


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Here's an article about sugar dusting. It is mostly a reproduction of a post made by Jim Fischer back in '01 to BEE-L listserv regarding Dr. Fakhimzadeh's methods. He discusses the starch issue. 

Nicely presented webpage of his post...
http://www.westsoundbees.org/beekeeping_articles_sugar.htm

The original, text only post...
http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind0105D&L=bee-l&F=&S=&P=31808

There are people who swear by sugar dusting and those that swear at it...pick your poison. 

Ed


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

The cornstarch in powdered sugar is of no concern in dusting. The bees are not consuming this sugar and work hard to remove it from the hive. Don't feed powdered sugar in syrup as that could cause digestive problems at a time the bees are confined.

I've been known to frequently "waste my time" with sugar dusting and the bees have not had a problem with powdered sugar containing cornstarch.

Wayne


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Regular powdered sugar works well, no need to powder granulated sugar because of worries about corn starch. I would recommend powdered sugar over the pollen substitutes because the bees clean up the sugar in less than 24 hours, cleaning up regular flower (which also drops the mites well) takes almost a full week. The only benefit to pollen subs would be in what they would store during clean up.

Sugar dusting works well on swarms and nucs when they are without sealed brood. When you have sealed brood the mites are protected and the sugar has no effect. Powdered sugar is not a method to use if you are commercial, but a hobby beekeeper has fewer colonies and more time to spend seeing after them. It slows the population growth and can keep varroa below the threshold numbers at which they start to damage the colony. A nuc or swarm dusted 3 to 5 times before it has sealed brood will have half the varroa population in late summer when compared to one that is not dusted.

The Dutch have a method that hobby beekeepers could use, it is labor intensive, but if you do not like chemicals, it would work. It is described in "Varroa Control in New Zealand." Do a Google search, it is well worth your time to read the information in that booklet.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Rather than creating a problem with the bees digestive system, I thought the big problem noted with powdered sugar containing corn starch is that it can damage open brood. Supposedly it can desiccate the larvae and (for very young larvae) the puddle of royal jelly if enough of it enters the cells. Understandably, simply dusting between the frames isn't like dusting straight down into the cells, but still...cells are slanted upwards.

Ed


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Bottom line, do mite counts and find out if it is getting the job done. And, of course, one favorite way of counting mites is a powdered sugar roll. This method is probably not quite as accurate as an alcohol wash, but let's say the corn starch in powdered sugar might have some small deleterious effect on the bees. The alcohol is 100% fatal to the 300 or so bees in the alcohol wash.

If a powdered sugar dusting is not effective, I'd look at the dusting method. What I see recommend here is sifting a little powdered sugar over the tops of the frames and letting it work down thru the frames. How anyone can expect the bees to be well enough coated to cause them to dislodge a significant number of mites using this method is a mystery to me. 

After an early attempt to sift sugar onto frames while inspecting achieved spotty coverage and a single mite drop, and a discussion of dusting methods here, I've picked up an insecticide duster. Next time in for inspection, my wife and I are going to use that duster during our next inspection. First we'll do a sugar roll and get a count, then inspect the hive and dust all well-covered frames, avoiding getting heavy deposits into open brood (the only known downside to the method). Then we'll get a mite drop count and see if it looks reasonable against the sugar roll result.

I found a paper on the effects of sugar dusting, and the only downside the researchers found is that if you nearly filled the cells of brood that would cap within something like 2 days, there was measurable mortality. My hope is a nice even coating from a proper duster will avoid the clumpy application from a sifter, and be harmless to brood.

And honestly, knowing mite load and checking drop rates during treatment ought to be SOP. Heck, there are several mite treatments out there that they'll tell you flat out the mites are getting resistant to.

One of the reasons I bought an observation hive is that I intend to sugar dust for mites and video the resulting cleaning activity.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Formic acid is my treatment of choice. Works awesome for ridding swarms of varroa for a fresh and healthy start. I also use it in a "flash" treatment which penetrates the brood and kills the male mite thats inside the brood so he can't fertilize his sisters.
Just my preferred method. Dust away if that is your preferred method-whatever works. just kill the mites.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Intheswamp said:


> Rather than creating a problem with the bees digestive system, I thought the big problem noted with powdered sugar containing corn starch is that it can damage open brood. Supposedly it can desiccate the larvae and (for very young larvae) the puddle of royal jelly if enough of it enters the cells. Understandably, simply dusting between the frames isn't like dusting straight down into the cells, but still...cells are slanted upwards.
> 
> Ed


I saw a study stating this as well.

And frankly, once again, I found myself saying "what the heck did they expect!?". The only study I read that stated that sugar dusting resulted in larval mortality applied powdered sugar... directly on the brood. I've never heard of people applying it that way, as far as I know, people apply it on the top of the hive, thus between the frames, and not on the comb.

As Phoebee stated, I don't think a normal use of powdered sugar dusting will have any significant effect on brood.

AR, did you mean this document: http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/files/pests/varroa/control-of-varroa-guide.pdf

It doesn't really say much at all. The results described there, and which I've come across elsewhere, suggest an increase of varroa mite drop, but none go so far as affirming that this effect is sufficient to curb varroasis. Anyone using this method should therefore keep in mind that he may very well be wasting his time and his money.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Randy Oliver has written quite a bit on this subject. He thought the idea was ludicrous as well until he figured out how to use it correctly. I have used it too with surprisingly good results, but it has to be done with the appropriate methods. Humidity also plays a big factor, so be sure to consider this aspect. 
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/ipm-7-the-arsenal-natural-treatments-part-2/


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Yes Dominic, that is the booklet I was thinking of. I did not mean it for just information on PS dusting, but for overall information on varroa and their control. The Dutch method described was for the use of drone brood removal, but by combining drone brood removal and powdered sugar dusting, the process is shortened.

As for a waste of time and money, I can treat 10 to 15 nucs with a two pound sack of PS, or 4 to 6 double deeps. I have more nucs than full colonies and with nucs choices are limited when it comes to varroa control. If I am just treating a double deep takes about 5 minutes of my time. As I said, for a hobbyist this is nothing, but I can see where a commercial beekeeper would not want to use PS. PS will not control varroa alone but if used with other methods will reduce the varroa population growth and will reduce the number of chemical treatments needed.

Phoebee, sifting the sugar with a top screen will put sufficient sugar on the bees. Coverage is better if each box is dusted, dusting the top of doubles doesn't give the drop you get if you separate the boxes and then dust.

I am not saying dump all other methods and just PS dust, but I think rejecting PS without giving it a try limits a beekeeper's options.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Dusting broodless swarms or winter clusters is a great way to zero out the mite population. Dusting summer nucs repeatedly leads to brood problems and lack of growth, and a single application does no particular good. Dusting full hives causes mite drops, and the hive can recover from the larvae problem, it is really disruptive and time-consuming however. 

Perhaps the most useful part of dusting is its role in the education of young beeks. These folks typically tell me "I'm treatment-free and I don't have varroa, but my hive is not growing and I'm seeing crawling bees". Okay, I tell them, "lets dust the hive and see what drops". Most go along with this because sugar doesn't seem like a evil "treatment". Withing 30 minutes of dusting the bottom board will be red with little crawling chips moving through a sugar snow. You can see scales drop from the young beeks eyes.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

The fatbeeman uses mineral oil to control mites. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-crv868VZHU


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Tim KS said:


> The fatbeeman uses mineral oil to control mites.


Good luck with that.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

He also does it adding wintergreen or spearmint oil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Is1W_F_-s

I wonder what happens if that mineral oil mist hits open flame, like maybe that propane torch that heats the oil?


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Fatbeeman says, " I use dynamite to kill varroa since I learned that mineral oil coats the bees, comb etc and is a plain waste of energy and a generally dumnass thing to do. Thanks to all my YouTube subscribers for tuning in. Tomorrow I'll show you how I use dynamite so you will blindly follow me and do the same. Then I'll show you how I make a "special" KoolAid and we can all drink it together"
All the above is just kidding-no ill will intended please.
Seriously he seems like a decent guy and seems to be genuine in his efforts. He has a lot of knowledge however even the great fatbeeman can be wrong at times just like all of us.
http://www.americanbeejournal.com/site/epage/132578_828.htm


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

challenger said:


> Fatbeeman says, " *I use dynamite to kill varroa* since I learned that mineral oil coats the bees, comb etc and is a plain waste of energy and a generally dumnass thing to do.
> http://www.americanbeejournal.com/site/epage/132578_828.htm


Would you please link to that YouTube video where the fatbeeman says that, or is he giving you personal advise? 

BTW, just because I linked to one of his videos doesn't mean I recommend his course of action. :no: All this internet info is considered by me as "take some, leave some".


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Sarcasm doesn't translate well to the internet. 

Don relates what works for him. All the condescension in the world won't change that.

Wayne


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Tim KS said:


> Would you please link to that YouTube video where the fatbeeman says that, or is he giving you personal advise?
> 
> BTW, just because I linked to one of his videos doesn't mean I recommend his course of action. :no: All this internet info is considered by me as "take some, leave some".


Oh I know you were not plugging him or such-I was just trying to put a little humor into the subject. As I said (I hope) fatbeeman is the real deal and an all around asset to beekeeping/beekeepers. I'm not being condescending at all. I've seen several of his videos. I don't agree with some things he does but I do follow some of the same practices he does. 
Tough room tonight. My apologies for any unintended ill will.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

No ill will taken here. I was just making a feeble attempt at adding more humor. I'd don't agree with his methods either....especially the fact that he NEVER wears any netting. He must be a sucker for pain.....


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Tim KS said:


> No ill will taken here. I was just making a feeble attempt at adding more humor. I'd don't agree with his methods either....especially the fact that he NEVER wears any netting. He must be a sucker for pain.....


I don't know about the protective gear either. I despise wearing gear also. It was so hot yesterday and I'm trying to stock mating nucs. Even with my brand new ultra breeze suit I was about to fall out. If I wasn't wearing protection I'd have gotten skewered.


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## LanduytG (Aug 29, 2013)

challenger said:


> Pretty sure this has been determined to be a waste of time. Very little bang for the buck/effort


With the amount of mites and SHB that came off my 2 hives I would not say its a waste of time. $1.19 for a 1lb bag is nothing and I have enough left to do it a couple more times.

Greg


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I have decided there is one minor downside to the corn starch content in powdered sugar: it does not dissolve particularly well, so when you add water to expose the varroa mites on a sugar roll the milky water makes it slightly harder to see them.

But not THAT hard.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>"I'm treatment-free and I don't have Varroa...

Seriously?


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> > >"I'm treatment-free and I don't have Varroa...
> 
> 
> Seriously?





JWChesnut said:


> Perhaps the most useful part of dusting is its role in the education of young beeks. These folks typically tell me *"I'm treatment-free and I don't have varroa,* but my hive is not growing and I'm seeing crawling bees". Okay, I tell them, "lets dust the hive and see what drops". Most go along with this because sugar doesn't seem like a evil "treatment". Withing 30 minutes of dusting the bottom board will be red with little crawling chips moving through a sugar snow. You can see scales drop from the young beeks eyes.


Context...short truncated responses can cause confusion (for me  ). I had to go back to see what this was all about and who was saying that they didn't have mites....and glad I did. 

This will be my fourth winter having bees. My hives are doing well...I think. But, I've never treated. I have spotted mites on drone larvae in the past, but I haven't seen a mite on a worker bee...yet. I know there has to be some that has mites, but I really haven't seen any. I looked at them on the comb and I've studied many photos that I've taken of bees on the comb...I've still not spotted a bee with a mite. :s I think that from re-visiting JWC's remark above that I just might do a sugar dusting this fall. Should I wait till after the goldenrod flow? 

Ed


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Intheswamp said:


> This will be my fourth winter having bees. My hives are doing well...I think. But, I've never treated. I have spotted mites on drone larvae in the past, but I haven't seen a mite on a worker bee...yet. I know there has to be some that has mites, but I really haven't seen any. I looked at them on the comb and I've studied many photos that I've taken of bees on the comb...I've still not spotted a bee with a mite. :s I think that from re-visiting JWC's remark above that I just might do a sugar dusting this fall. Should I wait till after the goldenrod flow?
> 
> Ed


What you should be doing, if all that is true, is raising the rest of us some queens. That's Michael Bush's whole point of treatment free. Treating bees takes the adaptive pressure off so they never develop the ability to deal with varroa on their own. Only the treatment free crowd has a chance of breeding strains that are varroa survivors. The process is painful ... a lotta bees gotta die to find the survivors.

A little fish like me, with two hives, has little chance to work up such a breed on our own. But we'd love the chance to raise some that other people have stumbled on. And, in fact, I was given a locally-raised varroa sensitive hygenic queen a few weeks ago. Her hive is not fully populated with her offspring yet, so I'm interested in seeing how it goes. So far that hive is dropping more mites, although it has the same low count as the other hive after a sugar roll (2/300 bees).

I've stayed away from chemicals so far, trying powdered sugar just to encourage them to clean themselves, and using a Freeman bottom board for both varroa and SHB. So far it is working but we have not hit the peak season yet and I'm on the fence regarding treatment. I understand what MB is saying and agree with it in principle, but with just 2 hives I can see myself giving in to the Dark Side if the little monsters build up.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Is a sugar dust useful even if there's a solid bottom board in the hive? I'm worried that all of that powdered sugar will have no where to go if there's no screen for it to sift out of.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

estreya said:


> Is a sugar dust useful even if there's a solid bottom board in the hive? I'm worried that all of that powdered sugar will have no where to go if there's no screen for it to sift out of.


I think they'll haul the sugar out. The problem is the mites themselves. Sugar doesn't kill mites, it just makes them clumsy and makes the bees want to groom. Dropping thru the screen on to an IPM board sprayed with veggie oil (PAM or similar) effectively kills varroa and even SHB. But if no screen is present, an oiled IPM board will kill bees, too.

Solid bottom boards don't allow you to do mite drop counts. They have their use for transporting hives, swarm traps, or for temporary use in a pinch, but for Integrated Pest Management a screened bottom board is a useful tool. The question is more a matter of exactly which configuration. Some are more than a little drafty for cold winter use. I'm kinda fond of Freeman Beetle Traps myself, with the oil tray or with an IPM board.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Thank you for your response, Phoebee. The issue of whether or not to get screened bottom boards was one of the first beekeeping decisions hubby and i made, and there are strong opinions on both sides! Now i'm wondering if we made the wrong choice. On the other hand, if our packages absconded from too much draft or too much light ...

It's all a bit of a gamble, isn't it!


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

You can always slip a piece of coroplast (campaign sign material) or something into the hive through the entrance to catch the sugar, mites, etc., that fall once you apply the powdered sugar. I would first use a piece of bent, flat metal to drag out any debris already sitting on the floor of the solid bottom board before inserting the coroplast or whatever...I'm a neat-freak, I guess.

In the 3-4 years now that I've been keeping bees I don't believe I've ever had a hive abscond because of too much draft or light. But, I'm gradually modifying all my screened bottom boards to to be SHB oil-tray traps....ISOT II's.  I can either close off the bottom or leave it open, I can use it as an oil trap or use it for an inspection board...several options. 

If you want more information give me a holler...

Ed


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Estreya,

We never just run a fully open screen for that reason. We always keep either an IPM board (coroplast corrogated plastic sign board marked with a pattern of squares so you can more easily scan for mites) or the beetle tray in place. Our Freeman traps are ventilated but we have foam blocks to cut off the draft in cool weather or if the colony population is low. But to us, the added advantage of measuring and killing pests is the best reason.

In warmer climates, the bees might actually like the breeze in hot weather.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

estreya said:


> The issue of whether or not to get screened bottom boards was one of the first beekeeping decisions hubby and i made, and there are strong opinions on both sides! Now i'm wondering if we made the wrong choice. On the other hand, if our packages absconded from too much draft or too much light ...


All my TBH's have a screened bottom board and IPM board that I never leave open. (I wish there was more of a discussion of "if you have a SBB, do you leave it open?") This year I put diatomaceous earth on the IPM board instead of the Crisco (which worked very well last year) and it seems to be killing the SHB-adult and larvae. 

I just did a powder sugar shake on one of my hives this month as I split them out into separate nucs. Not sure how they faired yet, as they were hatching queen cells and I'm trying to stay out of the boxes. Only a couple of nucs have the screened bottom board but I have to lift the whole thing up to take a peak at what dropped through the screen. Will be interesting to see if there are any dead varroa mites.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Very very interesting, and informative thread.

Thank you, Intheswamp (such ingenuity!), Phoebee and Ruthiesbees ...


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## podunk (Jun 14, 2013)

Regular sugar in a blender will make powdered sugar, no need to buy powered or worry about corn starch.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

podunk said:


> Regular sugar in a blender will make powdered sugar, no need to buy powered or worry about corn starch.


Problem. Blender belongs to the wife, and she says "no." End of discussion. 

I may sneak a batch thru anyway. Experimenting with the duster in Virginia humidity, I want to compare the dusting properties of the commercial variety versus home-made. Supposedly the corn starch improves the handling of confectioner's sugar but I suspect freshly-made pure powdered sugar _straight from the blender_ might clump less.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Phoebee said:


> What you should be doing, if all that is true, is raising the rest of us some queens


Well, what I wrote is true. The only thing that has been done is the occasional and unintentional brood-breaks due to swarms issuing from my colonies. But I doubt I'll be selling queens any time soon as I'm just starting to consider queen rearing for nuc building and increase. So far, over the last several years the bees have done a good job of re-queening themselves. 

Ed


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Intheswamp said:


> Well, what I wrote is true. The only thing that has been done is the occasional and unintentional brood-breaks due to swarms issuing from my colonies. But I doubt I'll be selling queens any time soon as I'm just starting to consider queen rearing for nuc building and increase. So far, over the last several years the bees have done a good job of re-queening themselves.
> 
> Ed


Obviously a broodless is one of the very best forms of mite control. If the mites are in a hive that goes queenless and the replacement queen is an "emergency" queen there will be zero brood for the varroa to reproduce in. If the hive has a broodless period due to a swarm and the new queen mates successfully then there is not a broodless period from the aspect of varroa reproduction. By the same token if there is a mated queen introduced after the loss of a queen there will be no practical broodles period UNLESS the new queen gets installed two weeks after the original queen departed.
This is why "walk away" Splits are effective.
This is all information everyone here likely knows but I thought I would make sure. Don't rely on the fact that your hive swarmed as any method of mite control.
Please correct me if I am mistaken in any of the above-thanks.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

challenger said:


> Obviously a broodless is one of the very best forms of mite control. If the mites are in a hive that goes queenless and the replacement queen is an "emergency" queen there will be zero brood for the varroa to reproduce in. If the hive has a broodless period due to a swarm and the new queen mates successfully then there is not a broodless period from the aspect of varroa reproduction. By the same token if there is a mated queen introduced after the loss of a queen there will be no practical broodles period UNLESS the new queen gets installed two weeks after the original queen departed.
> This is why "walk away" Splits are effective.
> This is all information everyone here likely knows but I thought I would make sure. Don't rely on the fact that your hive swarmed as any method of mite control.
> Please correct me if I am mistaken in any of the above-thanks.


So I'm told. But I just had a hive go broodless (at least, down to nothing but a few capped drone cells, but as we know, they're the main problem). Just after combining them with a new nuc (supposedly this also represents a brood break) I dusted the combination with powdered sugar and something like 30-40 of the nasty little buggers dropped out to drown in the oil tray. Which they deserved. Were these geriatric mites? Dunno. Still working the options. A sugar roll showed 2 mites in 300 bees, not a lot until you extrapolate to 60,000 bees and figure there might be 400 varroa in the hive. Or did I just knock down the few dozen mites on the last of the emerging drones?

They were not broodless for long ... the new queen is hard at work making babies (and varroa breeding opportunities). We'll soon see if she's as VSH as advertised.

I'd still like a chance to raise one of Ed's queens. Or one of Mr. Bush's. A friend of mine has a Michael Palmer queen and maybe I'll get one of her daughters one day. This, I think, is the long-term solution.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

challenger said:


> <snip>
> This is all information everyone here likely knows but I thought I would make sure. Don't rely on the fact that your hive swarmed as any method of mite control.
> Please correct me if I am mistaken in any of the above-thanks.


I'm just sitting here thinking about this and it's like someone just flipped a light on. Maybe everybody else realized what you said, but I'm a bit (a lot) slow at picking up on things.  Thinking about the different time it takes for the different castes to emerge and the fact that the old queen could have laid eggs the day the queen cells were capped it is very easy to see how there's no brood break with a swarm. With little thought I very wrongly jumped to the conclusion that "queenless=broodless". Thanks for jarring my clock and getting it ticking again!!!

This kind of makes me wonder about things because it means I've had no mite treatment what-so-ever for my bees. The only queenless hives that I've had were swarms that for some reason did not have a queen...these were combined with queenright colonies. My bees have a strong dose of my mentor's bee's genes. I've gotten basically three hives from him and a swarm...over the last three years. There's been one cut-out and a swarm from elsewhere that I've added to the beeyard. These are the bees I'm working with. 

Phobee, if I can get other parts of my life settled somewhat maybe I can spend some time rearing some queens next year. The bees are relatively calm bees, but I won't do like many people and work them without a veil. My mentor says they have a lot of Caucasian in them...there's lots of pine trees around me and they do use a fair amount of propolis.

I may do a powder sugar dusting on one hive just to see what it yields...maybe on one of my oldest hives.

Ed


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Having recently done a whole slew of mite counts of various types, I finally opened up my notes and compared to the treatment threshold levels we were given in bee class.

My vague recollection said our counts were OK, but my instinct said "varroa are evil." Actually, our hives are WAAAAY below the recommended treatment threshold we were taught. The drone-sicles have more mites than the general worker population, but that's expected. 

One of our hives is "hygenic Carniolans" and the other is the survivors of a hygenic Carniolan colony combined with a nuc from the daughter of a VSH (probably Italian) queen mated in a bee-yard at which a bunch of disreputable mutt-drones and some Russians hang out. Maybe they're doing just fine on their own. But I figure an occasional dusting won't hurt.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

The method I used when I did mite drop counts was a cup of bees, which is approximately 300 bees from Randy Oliver's estimation, showed several of my hives having upper threshold numbers and one showing double the threshold. The numbers were supposed to be 6 mites maximum per 300 bees. For this reason I treated all the hives as it has been shown that if one hive in an apiary has high nnumbers then all hives have numbers that should be a concern.
Personally I feel it is incumbent upon beekeepers to treat their hives if numbers are high. If you know your levels are low then don't treat. In my apiary I am not convinced that my hives are VSH so I am treating and my winter losses are very low when compared to the "national average" which is a number up for a debate by anyone that has the energy to debate it which I do not. I treat with formic acid using a 50% solution on meat pads dosed at 2ml per frame of bees. Having a double deep does not mean the dosing should be 40ml. I look at the hive and I dose according to population, not total number of frames.
To each their own needless to say but for me formic is an outstanding treatment with no resistance and it is an extremely inexpensive option with the added bonus of easy application. I have also used a higher "flash" treatment with great success and I may do this this year as well. There has been some argument about queen loss so when I do use a flash I remove the queen unless it is a queen I am going to replace in which case I use it as an experiment. I've done this with queens in the hives and have not lost one from the treatment.
If anyone is looking to see DWV in their bees as an indication they have too many mites I would suggest that once DWV is in the hive then the hive is a goner. There are mitigating circumstances that could save the hive and allow over wintering but if the idea that simply treating the hive will rid the hive of the pathogens within it my experience is that it does not. DWV is just one noticeable destructive property that excess varroa numbers will burden a hive with. There are many others that are not so noticeable and, in my own specific experience, I have found that small bees are the second largest symptom. These small bees have wings and look normal in most respects but my observation has been that these bees walk around on the comb like zombies with a behavior much unlike the "busy as a bee" adage brings to mind.
YMMV


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Where are you getting the formic acid? My mentor uses the same method, but the solution a friend mixed for him is not in a well-sealed container and is likely getting weak. I found a writeup on the method here:

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/FormicAcid.pdf

The stuff ain't cheap from chemical suppliers but it is pretty basic and is produced by the hundreds of thousands of tons a year for _something._ Not found at my local ag supplier. Some chemical suppliers won't sell to civilians. I'm tempted to catch some of our pesky ants and squeeze them.

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/sial/f0507?lang=en&region=US


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

I get it from a company that sells supplies for biodiesel production.
http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=formic


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Wow, thanks! That's about 1/10 the price of Aldrich.


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## vernonpurcell (Jun 1, 2014)

I just checked the British confectionery sugar, ours does not have anything else other than sugar in its content
You can buy it on ebay.co.uk
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Whitworth...pt=UK_Home_Garden_Food_SM&hash=item20e485a7f5


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