# Swarms and natural comb cell size



## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Was wondering if one could say "beyond a reasonable doubt" that if you had a swarm draw natural comb, and it was 5.0 +/-, that it has been "in the wild" ? I've been reading about cell size and bee regression. If I I've understood it correctly, bees do not normally build 5.4 unless they have been on it. Does it make sense that a swarm from a hive that has been on 5.4, would build something close to that for a while at least? Then slowly regress to something closer to 5.0? If it was a swarm that has been "in the wild" for a season or so, would they not be building comb closer to 5.0 from the git go? That being the case, could one could say it was a Feral swarm and defend it? 
Thought appreciated.


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## Graperunner (Mar 13, 2012)

Michael Bush explaines it well, go to Natural cell size, then what is regression.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Good read. Thanks. I think I ciphered a "maybe out of it.  I guess if you had a swarm from 5.4 or larger, it would take a while for them to be/average "natural" cell sized. I think one could make a good argument or at least say, the odds are in favor of.


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

Caught two swarms in traps, and both drew a frame of natural comb from the roof. One made significantly smaller cells. They also ignored the adjacent drawn comb in the trap (used it for pollen storage) and only had brood in their natural comb. I'm taking that as a sign that these are "regressed" bees and will be going foundationless in their hive.

Mark


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Even package bees will build around 5.1 natural cell comb, this is what I noticed a couple years back when I bought over a dozen packages. As for bees in the wild, I don't know for sure if they would automatically be building less than 5.1, it probably does depend on how long they have been in the wild. John


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## buzz abbott (Mar 6, 2012)

seems to me that if I had small cell bees and they left me and you caught them that would be a false statement


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Buzz,
You are absolutely correct I think we get back to square one,,almost. I think in Lutteras' case, he has a good argument/case that the bees have been in the wild, or someone had them, regressed them, or they were "kept" on natural comb. MB points out that bees put on foundation less can draw something around 5.1 but it takes a few brood cycles to go smaller. 
Interesting discussion.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Rick 1456, if 5.4 bees are put on foundationless they will usually build around 5.1 in my observations. Those bees that built the 5.1 will not go smaller unless you cull out that 5.1 comb and make them build all new comb. You may not get down to the 4.9 area unless you cull out the brood comb a few times at least and make them rebuild it. Getting bees from 5.4 to 5.1 is not that difficult because by nature they want to go smaller, but getting them down to 4.9 or lower is harder to do without culling all the comb a few times. John


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

buzz abbott, I wasn't speaking about a swarm that just issued from another hive, but a swarm in the wild, like living in a tree for years. Yes, a swarm of small cell bees (4.9) will continue to build small cells if someone caught them and put them on foundationless. But a hive in a tree is not necessarily going to be small cell (4.9). John


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Thanks jmgi,
That makes it a lot clearer to me. Trying to "wrap" my head around this new territory, (new to me) My first real attempts at foundation less. Treatment free, now natural comb/ cell size. Guess it is a logical progression  The next step, I guess, will be to try regressing some hives. (next year)
Thanks for the input.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Also to add another loop in the equation, cell size can be regional too. Like growing zones.
There is a natural cell size map around here some where that basically shows bees in the south are a little smaller and bees in the north a little larger. (All still less than 5.4)


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

It makes me wonder,,,,bees are trying to do the right thing, we just keep messin up their plans


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Rick 1456 said:


> It makes me wonder,,,,bees are trying to do the right thing, we just keep messin up their plans


It appears they have evolved to be the most effient sized for thier climate.

Imagine what all the treatments and chemicals are evolving todays bees in to.


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