# Commercial OA Vaporizer



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

My time trials a couple of years ago rendered a 30 second per hive result with the provap-110.
This includes initial heat-up time.
If you run 2 Provaps, BINGQ!!!
You've hit the 15 second goal.

We use the BluettiEB 150 for remote power.
It will run 2 Provaps no sweat, and NO NOISE!
Bluetti EB150 1500Wh/1000W Portable Power Station - Solar Generator for Outdoors Camping – BluettiPower


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

I was going to recommend one of Biermann's units, but then I see the OP is likely pretty familiar with them ...

I think @HarryVanderpool might be on the right track.


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

Thanks, BUT (as it creeps in all the time) a ProVap (or my unit, or any build on the same principal) is not considered (IMHO) a commercial unit. A commercial unit should be used standing up, have a magazine for 100 or more charges, easily refilled, going from the front entrance, zapp - zapp - zapp.

For power, any fire force is not acceptable to me, simply for correct temp. control, I am working on a 800-1000 watt electric unit that I will be testing come December/January, welded copper construction, easy cleanable, with a small ventilator - user or cycle triggered.

This was the reason why I am looking what is on the market right now. Not necessarily copying, but the principals are relatively common knowledge.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

Biermann said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am looking for commercial grade Oxalic Acid Vaporizer. Please post, if anyone has any knowledge of makes that would qualify for commercial use.
> 
> ...


Two vaporizers come to mind:

The Pro Vap EZ 110 is in my opinion probably the most bang for the buck probably not the fastest at $735.00. 

ProVap EZ 110 

The Vm Vaporizer is the other but at $3100.00, that is a tough one to justify economically.

VMVAPORIZER TURBO 2021


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

Back at this.

Good points an particularly the mentioned units for commercial application.

Here some notes:

1. Temperature control on anything else then electric units with a PID is the same as believing in life after death.
2. Accuracy of metering the OA from loose crystal bulk supply in a container on the unit is equally luck related.
3. Is a blower of any form needed or will the sublimation of the OA set free enough water vapor to satisfactory do the job?
4. How to meter: a) granular OA with a plunger type, 1.5 gram per stroke feeder
b) OA in tablets with 1.5 gram = 1 tablet per nuc or single deep, t tablets for double deeps
c) liquid with peristaltic metering pump
I still believe greatly in a copper, band heater heated bowl, now with 800 watt. 

Any thoughts? Maybe refer to my points made or add new points as we go.

Again, this is for an open discussion, not dogma


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

johno, I moved my reply from the Oxalika here:

Yes, the plan is a commercial vaporizer. The Oxalika is just one more of the units to look at, how it is build, what is good, what is bad etc. No need to re-invent the wheel when we just need to make some modifications how all is put together etc.

Presently I am just doing theoretical layouts for a system with a copper pot, 8oo watt band heater, 3/8" vapor tube, pop-on lid that has the metering unit on it and I am tending to 1.5 gram, 12 mm tablets, metered with a push button feeding one or two tables at the time for a one hive treatment dose at the time. This would give accuracy and accountability, not over or under dosing. Still PID controlled and interlocking the feed with the heat value of the pot so one can't drop a charge in a cold pot.

I still feel the 'revolver' type metering to be the best, one could have six chambers (loading tubes) above, offset from the charge tube to the vapor pot, relatively sealed, so it can be used outdoors, the cluster of loading tubes could hold a total of 600 tablets if 16" high.

The trick will be isolating the magazine of OA tablets from the 800 watt underneath and the heat migrating upward.

Lets see what I get done over a long winter. Like you, I am retired and like to tinker, work when I want, not when I have to, I did the later long-enough.

Last comment: I use to kiss a lot in my younger days, but the girls are not so ambitious anymore with old guys. But what is KISS?

Cheers, JoergK.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

The KISS system is at the root of many good things " Keep,It ,Simple,Stupid "


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

One reason that large operators might want to shy away from the ProVap vaporizer is due having terrible procedures for it's use.
Watching Youtube videos confirms that. You will see an employee down on their knees, directly in front of the hive, with their head 12" above the vaporizer with smoke totally enveloping their head.
This is THE WRONG way to use this tool.
I will be posting a video soon showing our procedure.
Always on our feet, we shove the provap in the entrance and walk over to the adjoining pallet to clean the last cap and load the next. (we use 4 caps)
The caps, spoon and oxalic tub are on a tray. No fiddling and moving small parts around.
And you are NEVER on your knees or in a cloud of smoke.
I do not believe there is a faster way due to the constant of the vaporization time constant.
The answer isn't a better tool; its a better procedure.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Harry I agree with you on procedure, it becomes more difficult with hives on pallets but for the smaller guys with rows of single hives that small hole in the back makes it so simple and easy. Once the vaporizer is inserted it hangs in the hole and you walk on to the next hive and prepare it for the next treatment. You could make your vaporizer marginally faster by insulating the bowl, this would speed up the initial start and the recovery between treatments would also be marginally faster. If you do not believe me ask Ian Steppler about that.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Johno and Harry, I think you are both spot on. 
Procedure is the best way to handle anything.
I ordered extra cups from Johno a little while back (excellent service and extra quick shipping I might add, thank you Johno!), I start out by filling the cups to what amount of OA is needed in each hive and sit them on top of the hives, throw an extra wet rag in the entrance of three hives and get started. by the time I am on the third hive I move the reg from the fist hive to the next hive. I can walk through 25 hive in a matter of 45 minutes from the time I stretch out a 100' cord to the time I roll the cord up. Just too easy!
Worst part is wearing a respirator, no need to start that debate up again, it is my choice to breathe air not contaminated with something!
I drilled a 1/4" hole in the bottom board rim and with the wet rag in the entrance OAV comes out of the top vent/entrance every time.


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## bwilson (Sep 7, 2019)

sounds like theres a market for a fast and easy to use oxalic acid vaporizor. considering that I haven't seen or heard any evidence of the possibility of an "overdose" of OA, seems the easiest solution would be a very large bowl with a very large heating element and the user dumps a very large amount of oxalic acid into it and vapes away until it needs a reload. this is, of course, assuming no one has any evidence of an overdose situation. I'm pretty confident that the concentration of vaporized oxalic acid required to do any damage to bees is much higher than what is physically possible by means of vaporization with a heating element.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

HarryVanderpool said:


> One reason that large operators might want to shy away from the ProVap vaporizer is due having terrible procedures for it's use.
> Watching Youtube videos confirms that. You will see an employee down on their knees, directly in front of the hive, with their head 12" above the vaporizer with smoke totally enveloping their head.
> This is THE WRONG way to use this tool.
> I will be posting a video soon showing our procedure.
> ...


Agree with your points with respect to the ProVap 110 however this is not the case at all with the ProVap EZ 110. The entire procedure does not require and would be impractical with the ProVap EZ. Did you watch the videos in the link I posted above? By the way, the ProVap EZ 110 is on sale at Mann Lake for $654.15 currently. 





__





Mann Lake Bee & Ag Supply


Leading supplier of beekeeping supplies, live honey bees, hive kits, beekeeping suits, queen rearing equipment, beekeeping tools, and more.




www.mannlakeltd.com





No caps, no spoons. Just jam the appropriate sized OA charge capsule into a bucket filled with OA and drop it down the charge tube. It vaporizes almost instantly provided you have dry OA and the proper temperature setting.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

My first reaction to the video, is that with this tool you are once again forced to stay in a position with smoke circling around you.
Not so with the Provap 110.Shove it in the entrance and walk with the wind in your face to the next pallet.
The down side is that I'm doing deep knee bends all day unlike the guy in the video.
Also, I would like to know more about dosing.
Are you stuck with the syringe's dose?
I like the ability to deliver the dose that I choose for a given hive size.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

HarryVanderpool said:


> My first reaction to the video, is that with this tool you are once again forced to stay in a position with smoke circling around you.
> Not so with the Provap 110.Shove it in the entrance and walk with the wind in your face to the next pallet.
> The down side is that I'm doing deep knee bends all day unlike the guy in the video.
> Also, I would like to know more about dosing.
> ...


Harry build your migratory tops like some I did with strips around the sides to allow bee space on top of the top bars and then with the small hole behind that goes through that strip. No bending just work from the top and move on while it is subliming. Definitely why it was called the Easy Vap.


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

bwilson said:


> sounds like theres a market for a fast and easy to use oxalic acid vaporizor. considering that I haven't seen or heard any evidence of the possibility of an "overdose" of OA, seems the easiest solution would be a very large bowl with a very large heating element and the user dumps a very large amount of oxalic acid into it and vapes away until it needs a reload. this is, of course, assuming no one has any evidence of an overdose situation. I'm pretty confident that the concentration of vaporized oxalic acid required to do any damage to bees is much higher than what is physically possible by means of vaporization with a heating element.


Sorry bwilson, I do have my problems with statements like yours and I will explain why:

In our country, bees are classified as livestock, like cows. pigs, horse etc. So, if you apply medication to them (livestock) it needs to be a registered and approved product. Perhaps the application needs to be approved. We all know OAV works, but the approach you promote could very well threaten the use of this good tool if applied uncontrolled, uninformed and not metered to the amount used per hive. Using a very large bowl, filling it with as much OA as it can hold and then blow it in the hives is not what I consider sensible or accurate dosing.

My approach is the metering of a dose for every hive, relatively exact as it can be. No shotgun approach, this can and will give beekeeping a bad name, so don't go close to it, please.

Harry VDP has it nicely put.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

I'm pretty certain that the label dosing rate will be increasing in the near future.
After following the research out of Florida, Georgia and Oregon; it puzzles me who and how they came up with the one gram dose.
AND the fact that this dose actually made it all the way through the EPA and onto the label!
No wonder apiculture has so many problems!
My --->GUESS<--- is that it will be tripled, based upon preliminary test results.
I'm sure we'll all be following this ongoing effort very carefully.


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## bwilson (Sep 7, 2019)

Beirmann, I'm not advocating anything that will damage bees in any way. I was simply stating that the amount of oxalic acid that can be vaporized by conventional means can only achieve a certain ppm concentration in a given volume at a given temperature and pressure. So by loading up a huge bowl with OA and vaping away, you would only be able to fill the available space inside the hive to a certain concentration before It starts to blow out the entrance and cracks. A very similar concept to when the Teflon cap blows off the provap when the nozzle is plugged. As long as your hives aren't air tight (as if it were possible) then the concentration can only achieve a certain level. The question is whether or not that concentration is high enough to do any damage to bees. I don't believe there is any evidence to show that, however I'm not the most well read in that subject. The goal was for a fast effective vaporizer. I think a constant stream of vaporized OA place in the front entrance for a set amount of time that would fill the cavity is exactly what was requested. It's no different that the vm vaporizer in concept.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

The problem with following the darn labels is the fact that the powers that be don't know a darn more than half the time about what actually works in the field and what doesn't. Not to mention they charge you 2 arms and a leg for apibioxal OA. Guys like myself have known for several years that OA wasn't killing like the scientific community said it was but what are we supposed to do? Over pay for OA and go by their recommendations and let our bees die or weaken? My business doesn't have 5-20 years to figure problems out and neither do my bees. Mites problems in Tennessee aren't the same as mite problems in Canada or Florida. There is not a one size fits all for any mite treatment


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Thats right buy the expensive EPA label stuff and the reason it is only 96% pure is the 2 to 3% of coloidel silica added to make it flow easier in the package What the silica also will do in your vaporizer is also coat your surfaces of the bowl making it more inefficient and probably need to be cleaned more often and if silica gets into your lungs it will do more damage over time than the OA will.


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

So, my point: go with tablets and the silica is not needed, one could use the cleanest, 99.9% OAD. The tablets I have are 99.65%.

Tennessee - you will agree that regardless where you are, you need some means of measure, correct? So what you work out for your area is your choice, but I reject the term: use lots, cause it works better.

BTW, we are getting off topic.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> The problem with following the darn labels is the fact that the powers that be don't know a darn more than half the time about what actually works in the field and what doesn't. Not to mention they charge you 2 arms and a leg for apibioxal OA. Guys like myself have known for several years that OA wasn't killing like the scientific community said it was but what are we supposed to do? Over pay for OA and go by their recommendations and let our bees die or weaken? My business doesn't have 5-20 years to figure problems out and neither do my bees. Mites problems in Tennessee aren't the same as mite problems in Canada or Florida. There is not a one size fits all for any mite treatment


But I want to know what you really think Kamon!  I could not agree with you more on this. Not only is the Apibioxal ridiculously expensive, contains silica as John says, but also apparently contains glucose of all things!!!! Glucose will just work wonders for our vaporizers........ NOT! 

Vaporising Api-Bioxal

I treat my hives with 4 grams per brood box and have been doing so for several years with no ill effects from the OAV. 1 shot in the lower entrance & 1 shot in the upper entrance, and done. I agree the OAV should be accurately dosed but to be honest, as has already been eluded to in above posts, I don't think it is possible without going to radical extremes to apply too much OAV to a hive as the hives are not 100% air tight, the bees will aggressively fan the OAV, and there is only so much OAV that a given volume of air inside the hive will allow, in my opinion.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Biermann said:


> BTW, we are getting off topic.


I'm not so sure that we are. How can we select the right vaporizer when current research is pointing to a faulty dose recommendation?
We need to push for the ACCURATE dosing on the label first and only then can we know which tool is up to the job.
Sadly, this appears to be just another case of many, where beekeepers quickly figure things out while academia and industry take baby-steps behind us.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Laws are for those who aren't morally conscience. For those of us who already care about ourselves, our bees, and our customers laws don't do much good anyways. Is it not legal to use fluvalinate and coumophous? Should it be? The law says you can. Even though it is nasty and doesn't work.

I am all for following the law when it is works. that is my preference. However, we are way behind the times in beekeeping. This is due to many factors -

Being a small market and importing all this fake funny honey there is less financial backing for solutions.
Big ag/pharma has done everything they can to make it so expensive to get a new product tested and to the market. When they do give us something, like api bioxal OA, they expect us to be happy and say thank you for being screwed over. Monopolies are the enemy of capitalism and innovation.
(back to stagnant monopolies)
Mann lake and Dadant who have a grip on the lions share of the market are not innovating either. Their R&D is focused on how do we charge more and give less.

Welcome to beekeeping.

There is a lot of blame to go around. Beekeepers must start working together informing one another, putting our money as much as we can into companies that do the right things, and championing our own needs thru beekeeper led research whilst collaborating with the good bee researchers who care to change things.

Lot of work needs to be done. Waiting for the PHD's to figure this out is not a solution. Beekeepers need to work with them and drive things forward at an accelerated rate.

To summarize, I follow laws when they are logically and morally sound. I don't need someone or some entity telling me what that is when they can't get it right themselves. I am the type of person the government hates. I can think for myself.

I have been using 2.5 - 3 grams a deep for many years. Works great, bees respond well.


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

HarryVanderpool said:


> I'm not so sure that we are. How can we select the right vaporizer when current research is pointing to a faulty dose recommendation?
> We need to push for the ACCURATE dosing on the label first and only then can we know which tool is up to the job.
> Sadly, this appears to be just another case of many, where beekeepers quickly figure things out while academia and industry take baby-steps behind us.


Lets say one builds a unit with six tubes (alu, light weight), each holds ~50 tablets (1 gram) total of 300 tablets. One can automatically feed once, twice, three or four times, giving up to 4 gram at one hive. this would give min. 75 to max. 300 hives (where I believe 3 gram in our region is the right amount for a double deep) = 100 hives per load.

Our (Canadian) registration set the tablet size to 1 gram and 2 gram per double deep, sadly ill conceived, but that's government and health officials for you.

Ideally, I would feel a 1.5 gram tablet would be best, 1.5 for a nuc or single deep, 3.0 for a double and if one is in the deep south 4.5 gram.

The operator would have, (at hip height) the known InkBird PID, a selector rotary switch for 1, 2, 3 or 4 tablets and a 'drop' button that only allows the pre-selected number of tablets dropped when the bowl is at set temperature. Bowl and revolver feeder are sealed against each other to avoid vapor being pushed in to the magazine.

More to come (I hope).

JoergK.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Is it not legal to use fluvalinate and coumophous? Should it be? The law says you can. Even though it is nasty and doesn't work.


There is a huge problem with registered pesticides that are no longer used, still on the books:
When regulators have a new product presented to them for registration, they look at how many options are currently registered.
This goes for all pesticides and pests.
If there are a "sufficient number" of available products, this can result in the new product being disallowed.
This is why the last few new options have been registered under Section 24c, and then later granted full registration.
Beekeeping as an industry really needs to take a hard look at registered pesticides for varroa and consider taking steps to clear the way for new products.
Until then, industry leaders face an uphill battle with regulators.


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

Okay, I am back to my design configuration and have come to the following conclusion:

a) tablets of OA offer the best feeding integrity since a block (tablet) can be better managed in an OAV measuring system then any other form
b) granular OA is readily available to most beekeepers
c) liquid (liquefied on glycerin bases) offers a good metering capability too

I am probably going to build a prototype that can accommodate all three. The liquid form creates the highest challenge because of sealing the metering unit to avoid leaks.

Temperature & temperature transmission throughout vaporizers is a problem under extreme usage and high ambient temperatures, so I will probably use a small PC 110 VAC ventilator to a) cool the metering and vapor system and b) give additional air volume for the transmission of the vapor.

The different forms only require different 'revolver' chamber sizes: the 1 gram tablet requires 15 mm x 6 mm, so the 15 mm diameter will become my standard chamber diameter with the length of the chamber being adjusted to the different forms: 6 mm for tables. I need to calculate the chamber size for the granular (wiki says 2283 kg per m/3) and liquid OA on glycerin bases.

My plan is a unit that can be easily converted from one form of OA to an other and can be easily dismantled for cleaning with most metering components to be build from 308 SS and the bowl still from copper, probably 2" with a 3/8" vapor tube.

I have deliberated the idea of patenting the different components, but came to the conclusion that any copyright needs to be achieved and defended and can be basically circumvent by a slight modification of the patent *and* I don't need to make a living from the production and sales should be okay if I don't overprice and supply quality for what I charge.

This has proven the case with my single shot OA VAP 110.01 to .06, so why not continue that road.

Comments to my plan are always welcome, but remember, I am a retired and stubborn old man.

Cheers, JoergK.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Have you thought of a screw auger?

Crazy Roland


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

Hello Roland, I have, but it will only work for granular and what I am working on will work for all three forms. Lets see where I get with this. Hope to post some sketches soon.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Good. I thought it would be one way to address your "Quantum" dosing issue with tablets.

Crazy Roland


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## E.T.'sBees (Nov 28, 2021)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Laws are for those who aren't morally conscience. For those of us who already care about ourselves, our bees, and our customers laws don't do much good anyways. Is it not legal to use fluvalinate and coumophous? Should it be? The law says you can. Even though it is nasty and doesn't work.
> 
> I am all for following the law when it is works. that is my preference. However, we are way behind the times in beekeeping. This is due to many factors -
> 
> ...


I like the way you talk on here way better then on your vids 😂


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

Its the reason actors in Hollywood still have a job


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

I need to solve a problem: The metering (in my prototype) will be by a rotating SS disc with six holes and heat resistant seals. 

How can I use a small stepper motor with gearbox to do this in 110 VAC? Revolution would be 60°, 120° or 180°, 1, 2 or 3 charges.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

The only stepper motors I ever used required a stepper motor drive and a power supply.
This thing is getting _heavy._


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

why not just use a leaver that pulls a ratchet pawl. Think of a bicycle brake lever, every time you pull the lever it would advance the wheel to the next hole.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

look at a "Geneva wheel mechanism". With the right gear reduction, from possibly a wiper motor, and the right electrical contacts, again from a wiper motor, you will not need expensive stepper drives. Heck, just use one off an old air-cooled beetle.

Crazy Roland


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

Thanks for the last three commends. As always, R&D is 2/3 of the job.



> As Harryvdp said, this thing is going to be heavy


 and it shouldn't. Manual feeding is a good idea, but annoying when one has to pull the handle 3 times per VAP and on 500 hives= 1500 pulls. 

I am thinking of a 110 VAC magnetic actuator with 8-10mm push over a ratchet wheel. Triggered by a push button, ideally with a preset button for 1, 2 or 3 doses.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

You could do the same thing with the pull handle, one pull could deliver three or four OA pills, not just one.

Putting electronics on this thing, just remember this will be used bee farmers, hot weather, humidity, rain, bouncing around in the back of a truck, propolis, etc. 

Keep things simple enough to be fixed with baling wire and duct tape 😄


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## shakenbake68 (10 mo ago)

HarryVanderpool said:


> My time trials a couple of years ago rendered a 30 second per hive result with the provap-110.
> This includes initial heat-up time.
> If you run 2 Provaps, BINGQ!!!
> You've hit the 15 second goal.
> ...


The www.ez-ox.com tables will cut the overall time for treating multiple hives. If you will run a comparison test and give me your address, I'll see that you get a couple bottles.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

HarryVanderpool said:


> After following the research out of Florida, Georgia and Oregon; it puzzles me who and how they came up with the one gram dose.


my "guess" a competitor , paid a bit of $$ to the person "picking" the dose.
a few K to prove OAV does not work well is a few more years of selling what ever you sell.

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Biermann said:


> Thanks for the last three commends. As always, R&D is 2/3 of the job.
> 
> and it shouldn't. Manual feeding is a good idea, but annoying when one has to pull the handle 3 times per VAP and on 500 hives= 1500 pulls.
> 
> I am thinking of a 110 VAC magnetic actuator with 8-10mm push over a ratchet wheel. Triggered by a push button, ideally with a preset button for 1, 2 or 3 doses.


@Biermann ,

If you want granularity for several doses, IMO the OA in GLY is going to offer more options than pills.
what about a simple plunger, where the back stroke pulls from a canister, and the forward stroke delivers to the bowl.
the plunger can have lines or clicks for .5,1,1.5,2,2.5....5.0 grams for any size hive/NUC

If you mount the canister slightly below the heat, it can also help from over heating the OA/GLY liquid canister.

Thought came to me while getting paint mixed, the color is metered out via a plunger system, and can be quite accurate.

initial can make it work with manual plunger, then work on the Electronic version of the metering device as an after market add on for those needing it.

GG


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

GG, you are absolutely right, great thought and I will see. I have other projects going right now and, I am on vacation till mid April, so not much is happening now.


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