# Delon/Warre questions



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

flibbidy_dibbidy said:


> Any opinions on this?


Have you reviewed the most recent 20-30 talks in this sub-forum?
Many useful video links too.
I suggest you do and come up with more specific questions.
The opinion subject has been rehashed N times - you need to digest some of it first.


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## flibbidy_dibbidy (12 mo ago)

Fair enough, my bad. Welp ,rather than clog up the forum with useless posts, feel free to remove the post as my old ass can't quite figure out how to do it myself. 👍


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

flibbidy_dibbidy said:


> Fair enough, my bad. Welp ,rather than clog up the forum with useless posts, feel free to remove the post as my old ass can't quite figure out how to do it myself. 👍


No need to remove anything.
We are all here learning.
You just need to distill for yourself what is it you are looking for (which takes some digestion).

Here I share my own Warre-like project (my priorities - human ergonomics and efficient energy profile of the hive)








CVH (Compact Vertical Hive) by GregV


So yeah, I made my first CV hive and even put bees into it yesterday. https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?350173-GregV-s-Alternative-way-to-keep-(have-)-bees&p=1837675#post1837675 For the spring 2021 will build a bunch of standard small frames so to manage this thing by a box (the...




www.beesource.com


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

flibbidy_dibbidy said:


> Fair enough, my bad. Welp ,rather than clog up the forum with useless posts, feel free to remove the post as my old ass can't quite figure out how to do it myself. 👍


Sometimes Greg loses his soother and it makes him more cranky than usual! Hang in there.


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## flibbidy_dibbidy (12 mo ago)

crofter said:


> Sometimes Greg loses his soother and it makes him more cranky than usual! Hang in there.


I certainly appreciate your comment. I know these old school vets probably see the same posts over and over and over, and am sympathetic to that. I'm certainly not a forum pro, and it's pretty difficult to navigate between the basic "do I feed my bees" posts vs the complex thermodynamics conversations I've read through. I can only watch so many Ukrainian horizontal hive videos while trying to navigate Google translate too,ziiiiing. There are dudes on here with 30K comments,lol Unfortunately so much info gets pushed back into oblivion that one finds themselves reading for 8 hours about a random beekeeper in BF Siberia. As it is these interactions reinforce that I should 1-stick to my local mentor 2- be better at navigating the forum in which I'm trying to get info and 3- keep myself in lurker status.
Thank you again for your post. And have a great year.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I Have been 10 years with various combinations of Langstroth equipment but have been entertaining the notion of starting some fixed hives like the Layens to get away from hefting boxes up and down on vertical hives. I have found there is some interesting differences in management but nothing really impossible to get your head around if you have been working bees for 4 or 5 years in other equipment. Still the same bees. Dont argue with your mentor but it doesnt hurt to run the suggestions by the folks here. It takes a while to learn your way around the forum but keep at it and it sinks in by osmosis. After a while you start to absorb the good info and filter out the questionable.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Hello *f-d* - first post ? - a warm welcome.

Opinions on Warre ? Quite a few. Firstly, he was a Catholic priest and those guys believe that suffering is good for the soul, and live in a world which is black and white: they being right and everyone else wrong - hence the dogmatic, non-flexible attitude which Warre presents. Secondly, the most frequently read copy of Beekeeping for All (a book which reads like a sales-pitch from cover to cover - but then, aren't all priests salesmen ?) is the 12th Edition. Twelve editions of the same book ? Seems that someone kept changing his mind ... 

Ok - the important bits (imo) are the internal cross-sectional area of the hive, being 300x300mm (or circa 12x12 inches) - not that this needs to be religiously observed - but that kinda size has a very long and proven history. Likewise Warre's chosen *frame* depth of 400mm (circa 16 inches). Those dimensions were established by careful and extensive comparative testing over a long period and found to be ideal for northern France. Warre's decision to finally adopt a half-height box was made purely for reasons of human convenience, with his preference to employ top-bars instead of frames being based upon somewhat dubious (imo) economic arguments.

Considering that the Warre Hive is meant to closely resemble the (mythical) 'Natural' tree-nest of the honeybee, the whole process of nadiring boxes must be considered absurd - for has anyone ever seen a tree leap up into the air during mid-season in order that an extension be inserted into it's trunk ?

So - FWIW - I'd say take the basic hive structure (shape, dimensions, etc) and keep honeybees within it in whatever form or method makes sense to *you*. From first-hand experience I've discovered that used Warre boxes make great swarm traps, which suggests that bees find the size and shape of Warre hives much to their liking.

My earlier experience with the Russian 'Alpine' Hive (a Warre variant) was very positive, and last year saw me return to this style of hive - but again, without Warre's methodology. During this present Winter I've been building numerous 400mm-ish frames which will fit into Warre-style stacks (or vertical Layens/ Ukrainian Hives - pretty-much the same thing), and - based upon past experience - I'm fully confident that these will perform well during the coming season.

So - enjoy your Warre Hive. 
LJ

PS - re: the sugar - yes, I'm sure Warre's right - but then there are a whole lot of things 'out there' which are a great deal worse than white sugar.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

flibbidy_dibbidy said:


> As it is these interactions reinforce that I should 1-stick to my local mentor 2- be better at navigating the forum in which I'm trying to get info and 3- keep myself in lurker status.
> Thank you again for your post. And have a great year.


Please do not do #3, it is helpful to the rest of us new beekeepers to watch threads of others with similar skill levels. Misery loves company, so to speak  I am just kidding.

Keep asking questions, what I learned was to ask a direct question on a specific topic. They might be a little crusty depending on time of year, moon phase or side of the bed they got out of this morning, but it really is meant well and they have a lot to offer. Okay, done with the sweet smarmy stuff LOL.


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## mill-j (10 mo ago)

little_john said:


> Considering that the Warre Hive is meant to closely resemble the (mythical) 'Natural' tree-nest of the honeybee, the whole process of nadiring boxes must be considered absurd - for has anyone ever seen a tree leap up into the air during mid-season in order that an extension be inserted into it's trunk ?


There's two sides to every story. The same can be said for supering, in fact it's even more absurd to think of empty space above the combs then it is below When the bees establish a hive in the wild, they start at the top of the cavity and build comb to the bottom as needed. Adding space on top is usually impossible in a natural location while drawing down is limited only by reaching the bottom. Depending on the size of the colony/cavity, it might take several years.

I've never run a warre but I've been foundationless in langs for several years. Drop an empty foundationless box on top and the bees will likely build up... from the bottom bar of the frames. Since they are working against gravity these combs go every which way and make a huge mess(ask me how I know ). Sure, we can easily trick the bees by using foundation or one or two drawn combs from the bottom box. However, I'm guessing this would be quite difficult when you are managing foundationless by the box(nailed top bars) as the warre was designed to be used. 

While I've always supered on top, I can easily see why the alternative exists and see it as a useful tool in foundationless beekeeping.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

mill-j said:


> There's two sides to every story. The same can be said for supering, in fact it's even more absurd to think of empty space above the combs then it is below


Agree 100% Whenever I've added boxes on top, I've only ever done so using fully-drawn combs.  But yes - I agree, even that is still 'unnatural'.


> Drop an empty foundationless box on top and the bees will likely build up...


I tried that once (wanted to see if they would draw comb diagonally, to support a theory I was musing over) - and that's exactly what they did. The widely held maxim that bees will climb to the top in order to draw down - only applies to a completely empty cavity. Otherwise they'll build from wherever they're presently located.


> While I've always supered on top, I can easily see why the alternative exists and see it as a useful tool in foundationless beekeeping.


Perhaps you may also be interested in 'supering' at the sides ? That has a long and fairly successful history reaching back to 1764 with the Collateral Hive of Stephen White, a technique which was unknowingly copied and improved upon by Nutt in 1832. Both were fixed-comb hives with honey being harvested 'by the box'. But - just two decades later Langstroth came along and so that heralded the demise of that particular style of beekeeping - which I think would lend itself rather well to a foundationless Top Bar approach.(*)

FWIW - I currently have two Warre-style stacks within my (very mixed) apiary - both have over-wintered in their 'summer' configuration (i.e. with 'supers' in place) just as if these were fixed-volume tree cavities, and - judging by external activity - they appear to be far more advanced right now than any of my other hives. Will be poking my head in to check sometime during the next couple of weeks.
'best,
LJ

(*) With the Collateral system, when the bees are given access to the new 'super' (which of course is to the side of the brood chamber, not above it) they view it as being a completely empty cavity, and so will dutifully climb to the top and draw down. Which is not so very different from what happens when expanding within a horizontal hive - but in a far more portable system.

PS - I made something very close to a Collateral Beehive whilst experimenting last year: A Temporary Horizontal Warre ...


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

little_john said:


> Hello *f-d* - first post ? - a warm welcome.
> 
> Opinions on Warre ? Quite a few. Firstly, he was a Catholic priest and those guys believe that suffering is good for the soul, and live in a world which is black and white: they being right and everyone else wrong - hence the dogmatic, non-flexible attitude which Warre presents. Secondly, the most frequently read copy of Beekeeping for All (a book which reads like a sales-pitch from cover to cover - but then, aren't all priests salesmen ?) is the 12th Edition. Twelve editions of the same book ? Seems that someone kept changing his mind ...
> 
> ...


Alpine hive is Serbian version od Delon hive, not Russian. There are no Alps in Russia.


Beekeeping with the Warré hive -- Delon




Dragi pcelari


BTW: Serbia is where Cyrilic alphabet originated.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

mill-j said:


> Drop an empty foundationless box on top and the bees will likely build up... from the bottom bar of the frames. Since they are working against gravity these combs go every which way and make a huge mess(ask me how I know ).


Yup. Saved the two most 'artistic' looking frames for show and tell.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> Alpine hive is Serbian version od Delon hive, not Russian. There are no Alps in Russia.
> 
> 
> Beekeeping with the Warré hive -- Delon
> ...


This is one reason I don't care to be specific of a particular hive design - be it "Alpine" or whatever.

Much more attractive is the term - CVH (Compact Vertical Hive).
I did NOT invent this term - I basically stole the idea from the Russian/Ukrainan beeks where the term МФУ (Мало-Форматный Улей) is commonly used lately.
For example, this is just one public forum specifically dedicated to the МФУ's:





Just a moment...







dombee.info


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## mill-j (10 mo ago)

little_john said:


> Agree 100% Whenever I've added boxes on top, I've only ever done so using fully-drawn combs. But yes - I agree, even that is still 'unnatural'.
> 
> I tried that once (wanted to see if they would draw comb diagonally, to support a theory I was musing over) - and that's exactly what they did. The widely held maxim that bees will climb to the top in order to draw down - only applies to a completely empty cavity. Otherwise they'll build from wherever they're presently located.
> 
> ...


Interesting stuff. I'm currently running mostly horizontals. Part of the reason is to avoid those individual boxes but I'm wanting to build some warre hives as soon as I get the time. The bummer is the boxes in the off season. Unless I do like @GregB suggested and store them on the hive.




William Bagwell said:


> Yup. Saved the two most 'artistic' looking frames for show and tell.
> View attachment 68059


Yup, this is exactly why Warre says to nadir. There is a much higher chance of getting straight comb with little to no intervention when put beneath.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

jtgoral said:


> Alpine hive is Serbian version od Delon hive, not Russian. There are no Alps in Russia.
> 
> 
> Beekeeping with the Warré hive -- Delon
> ...


In the link you gave: Dragi pcelari the Serbian author* describes Delon's Hive - with it's standard 'Warre-height' 220mm boxes - as being an 'Alpine Hive'.* But the difference between Delon's Hive and what is generally understood as being an 'Alpine Hive' is* 220mm vs 108mm height boxes*. Describing a virtually standard Delon Hive (with 220mm boxes) as an 'Alpine Hive' only serves to confuse people.

The other link you gave: Beekeeping with the Warré hive -- Delon reads: 


> A variant of Delon's hive is also in use in* Russia:*
> Альпийский улей - Хомич Владимир - Схема Альпийского улья (plans of *108 mm deep boxes*)


I really wouldn't want to get into an extended debate about the following - but my understanding has always been that the name 'Alpine Hive' was adopted by Khomich simply because that was the region within which Roger Delon had developed the ClimateStable principle, and not because his own 108mm hive variant had any direct connection with an Alpine region - as clearly it doesn't.
Relevant ?: Alpine (108mm) Hive Youtube channels
'best,
LJ

BTW - Cyrillic was a 9th Century Bulgarian invention, based largely on the Greek alphabet.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> name 'Alpine Hive' was adopted by Khomich simply because that was the region within which Roger Delon had developed the ClimateStable principle, and not because his own 108mm hive variant had any direct connection with an Alpine region - as clearly it doesn't.


Exactly.
There was never an attempt to sell the name "Alpine" as something authentic and invented in Russia/Ukraine.
It is rather they used the name because the original proto-hive (and its name) originated in the Alps.


Anywho... I like the CVH term and the concept and will continue.


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