# horizontal hive super location?



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Hi Ray
I could not answer your questions regarding climate since I am in Southern California.

I am using the horizontal design (=2x10 frame deeps) for 6 months (?) or so. Bees LOVE this hive. The hive is blooming and has 2x more bees than needed - I am going to split it ASAP. I use this hive with foundationless truncated frames, essentially, top bars. Since top bars, management of full deep size frames needs to be done carefully. But it is manageable and it's much less invasive to the bees - I just open one inner cover "lid" at the time and work half of the hive - usually bees even did not notice if it is not the nest. 

Adding super - yes, I have the same question. I added super recently at the further (from the entrance) side of the hive, but I have no idea which position is better. My rationale was - I placed the super where the most honey are and they need more space. The entrance is on the long side of the body close to the end -it is adjustable slit maximally 30 cm long; it also has a nice landing board. The rationale was to give bees access to many frames "at the entrance". Also, to me, having entrance on the short side is inconvenient for "geographical" reasons. From hive-management point, having entrance on the short side would be advantageous.

Additional reason to use further (from the entrance) side of the hive for supering is to have access to the nest. If you place a super on top of the nest, it would essentially eliminates the advantage of the horizontal design- easy access to the nest.

PS Since it is horizontal and practically not movable - I would recommend to use 2x10 or even 2x12 design. 2x16 is too small to my situation, My 2x10 deep hive is already small to my bees... Since, it is just a box, you could put on top a super of any size, 10, 8 frames, does not matter -you just need to use appropriate "lid", which will cover the rest of the box.
Good luck with your project!


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

cerezha said:


> Hi Ray
> 
> Additional reason to use further (from the entrance) side of the hive for supering is to have access to the nest. If you place a super on top of the nest, it would essentially eliminates the advantage of the horizontal design- easy access to the nest.



That's a good point. One of the reasons a horizontal hive appeals to me is the easy manipulation of the brood nest. If you've seen Les Crowder's top hive book, he has a lot of what strikes me as very useful advice on comb manipulation, in response to various situations.



cerezha said:


> PS Since it is horizontal and practically not movable - I would recommend to use 2x10 or even 2x12 design. 2x16 is too small to my situation, My 2x10 deep hive is already small to my bees... Since, it is just a box, you could put on top a super of any size, 10, 8 frames, does not matter -you just need to use appropriate "lid", which will cover the rest of the box.
> Good luck with your project!


Thanks. I'm a boat designer sometimes, multihulls are my area of interest, and that type of craft requires very light but very strong construction. The hive I'm building uses ply and solid stringers to achieve light weight and low cost, in much the way a boat would be built. Of course, it's a lot easier to build something that doesn't have to float, and doesn't have to deal with the enormous stresses developed in a seaway and as a result of rig forces. In a boat I'd be reinforcing with epoxy and fiberglass, but I'm hoping the solid stringers and Titebond III will do it for a hive.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

rhaldridge said:


> ... The hive I'm building uses ply and solid stringers to achieve light weight and low cost, in much the way a boat would be built....


 I do not understand the necessity of stringers in the beehive design, but just keep in mind (I am sure you already know) that any extra space will be used by bees for comb or propolis; any hiding places - are heaven for small hive beetle. When I started bees, I was not aware of SHB. It is my understanding, that ideal beehive should have just flat walls with minimal gaps, steps, holes etc - basically, the box. Another thing, humidity in the beehive is quite high (evaporation of water from the nectar) - I do not think that naked plywood will stay long inside the hive. Normally, beehives are not painted inside... In my climate, the bee-side of unpainted ply inner board turned black and gray after one season...


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## rmcpb (Aug 15, 2012)

When I super my long hive its at the end away from the entrance. As it turns out her majesty does not tend to lay in the super at this end so any honey in there is for me, the bees can have what is in the lower long box.

I used the plans from this site but I would make it three boxes long, I cut off at the standard two box length and regret it now. Remember you can always shorten your hive with the follower board but its really hard to lengthen it.

I have three holes for entrances at the bottom of one end and have a top entrance at the same end. Also, I cut three 2" holes in the bottom and covered them with fly wire for extra ventillation. This has got me through the really hot summer weather really well.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

rmcpb said:


> ... I would make it three boxes long, I cut off at the standard two box length and regret it now...


 Rob
How such long box will keep shape? Are you thinking sort of support in the middle? I was thinking the same way and to my bees 2x10 is too short, but 3x10 would require some internal support to the long boards... I guess, you probably want bottom to be attached permanently to the box - it could be enough for support. In my case, I am using screened bottom, so bottom is not permanently attached to the box (vertical walls) - it could make the 3x10 construction flimsy.

My plan was to add supers to 2x10 to provide space to the bees.

Could you share your experience with long beehive?


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

cerezha said:


> I do not understand the necessity of stringers in the beehive design, but just keep in mind (I am sure you already know) that any extra space will be used by bees for comb or propolis; any hiding places - are heaven for small hive beetle. .


The stringers are external. I came upon the idea after seeing D. Coates' great idea for ply nuc boxes. I realized that if you put a stringer on the top edge of the box, and offset it to form the frame ledge, you would get rigidity and a frame rest out of the same minimal materials.

You may be right about the durability of plywood.. Maybe I can coat the interior with beeswax.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

rmcpb said:


> I used the plans from this site but I would make it three boxes long, I cut off at the standard two box length and regret it now. Remember you can always shorten your hive with the follower board but its really hard to lengthen it.


That was my concern too... my Langstroth equipment is all 8 frame, so I made the box 46" long, which is just short of 4 eight frame deeps long. There's a lot of room in that box; the idea was that one of the drawbacks to conventional equipment for the hobbyist beekeeper is that supers need to be stored, when not in use I'm trying to build a hive big enough to avoid that. But I decided there was no sense in ignoring the possibility of supering, since it should be pretty easy to adapt the hive to do that.

The more I think about it, the better I like it. I'm thinking I can put inner covers on in sections, so less of the colony is exposed when working one section of the box. I might even make one of the inner covers with a plexiglass window, so I can peek in without disturbing the bees.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

aaaa
understood. The problem with such design may be that beehive is not thermo-insulated enough - it might be too hot in Florida and too cold in cold place. Traditionally, the hive bodies made from relatively thick boards for thermo /humidity regulation. For the same reason, normally, wood is not painted, waxed etc inside, for the "breathing"...


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

rhaldridge said:


> .... I might even make one of the inner covers with a plexiglass window, so I can peek in without disturbing the bees.


 Fantastic idea! I would probably do glass, since bees love to put wax-propolis everywhere. Glass is easier to clean up. OK, I guess, I need a new inner cover for my horizontal beehive. Do you mind if I stole your idea?


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Not at all. But it really wasn't my idea. I saw a beautifully crafted long hive by a European beekeeper who used an inner cover made up of many 1X4 boards, and he had small windows set into several of them.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

rhaldridge said:


> ... inner cover made up of many 1X4 boards, and he had small windows set into several of them.


 Really cool! I think one large glass window may not work, because when inner cover is lifted, it may bent slightly and glass will broke. May be your plexi idea is better. Another idea is to use thick tempered glass as an inner cover.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have better luck if the entrance is in the super so they have to come in through the super to get to the colony. I usually move the brood nest to the back of the hive so I don't have to lift supers to get to the brood nest...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

That makes sense, Michael. I recently read an interesting study that might lead to a slightly different way to do it, but it seemed to me to confirm some of the things you've said about top entrances, and the reluctance of workers to cross a queen excluder. The study tried to confirm the latter idea. They set up three sets of colonies. If I remember correctly, one set was a conventional set-up with bottom entrance, one had a bottom entrance and queen excluder between brood box and honey super, and one had an entrance between the excluder and the super.

I'm probably misremembering the details, but the author of the study concluded that honey production was best in the last setup. He seemed to feel that the workers were indeed reluctant to cross the excluder in the more conventional set, and so the workers tended to backfill the broodbox with honey before using the super, which left the queen with fewer places to lay. As a consequence the hives had less brood area and fewer bees than the ones with an entrance to the super above the excluder.

I don't have a queen excluder, so probably doesn't apply to me. I assume you would put the entrance at the top of the super?

Ray


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I assume you would put the entrance at the top of the super?

Yes.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Here is what I do with mine. I use 5 frame nucs as supers. This one is battened down for our mountain winter at 7000' above sea level.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I had two queens in my double width hive. I also have top entrances at each side.

They stored the most honey closest to the top entrances. So I ended up having the full size super in the centre and moving frames from the half width supers on the sides (where the entrances are) into the middle super as they where filled and they then finished them off.

Having an entrance at each end definitely worked better for temperature control than one entrance. But then found having both a top and bottom entrance at both ends seems to work even better.

I would recommend a bottom entrance of only a 1/2 inch most of the time, and no wider than 1 inch (unless you have temperatures above 35°C/95°F). I have found that bearding in hot weather has stopped, with having both top and bottom entrances. The fanners go to the bottom entrance and draw air down through the hive and out the bottom. The evaporation from the nectar helps to cool the hive, with the wettest nectar at the top, air is drawn down. So the foragers come and go in the top entrance without having to dodge fanning bees. We've had temperatures of 40°C/104°F and looking at the top entrance, you wouldn't even think they were hot. (I did open the bottom entrance to a couple of inches on these days.)

The main thing with the top entrance is that the bees store less nectar in the brood nest and more above the brood nest! This helps to reduce backfilling of the brood nest, therefore reducing conditions for swarm preparation as well.

Here's a link to some more details and photos:
http://daveybees.wikidot.com/longhive


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

I'm so glad to see this thread on horizontal langs. I started a thread on bad backs and there is a lot of informative post on these style of hives with photos as well. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?270201-What-size-hive-boxes-are-those-with-bad-backs-using I'm building 4 deep boxes using lang frames with a divider board with the intent of using supers at each end if needed. I'm using 1 x 12 cut to size western cedar for side walls and 3/4" plywood for bottoms with migratory tops for covers. I'm hoping by having boxes this size it will allow the bees to overwinter better when we get our 5 - 6 week subzero inversion. Michael, Paul and Matt inspired me to move to this type of hive with their contributions.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Here are some observations I have had on entrances... I originally started with a single 1" drilled hole and a disk entrance. I also had screened bottoms - but only under the brood nest. I found it worked ok, but the screened bottom didn't make much difference for me, in fact, it made it harder to maintain a good temperature in the hive during the winter because the hive is elevated on small legs and air readily flows into it. The small entrance hole also did not allow enough heat to escape in summer.

Here is what I do now... I have moved the entrance to the bottom like a standard lang and it is now a 3/4" slit running the entire width, and use a solid bottom with 76mm screened vent holes under the brood nest. I also added a small covered screened vent on the rear top cover to let heat and moisture escape. They seem to work so far. I did not have comb collapse issues with them in the desert last year, and so far most of the hives are booming coming out of Winter.

If you notice in the pic I posted, the 5 frame nuc is actually being used as a winter food chamber. I have a small spacer covering the gap where the nuc didn't completely cover. They are sized to take a standard lang body, which I would have normally used, but was out when this hive was prepped for winter. It is really windy and cold here in winter, so winter prep is basically loosely covering all screened vents or holes and sealing cracks. I then place some candy bricks in a food chamber for them to munch on. Our winter gets really cold, but does not stay cold for long - so the bees get a break every few days to come up and eat the candy when the daytime temps swing up above freezing. Nights dip to 18 degrees or so.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Paul, I like your setup-- simple and well-thought-out. I saw more pictures of your hives in the thread StickyBear started on back problems. I guess if we live long enough we'll all have back problems at some point, and "beekeeping=back problems" seems to be a pretty well-established correlation. Matt, I saw pics of your beautiful horizontal hive in that thread too. I found the thread by searching beeesource. The more I think about it, the more I wonder why there isn't more buzz about these hives, at least for non-migratory small-scale beekeepers. 

One of the reasons I'm building one is that I was very taken with the thorough description of comb manipulation in Crowder's top bar book. If you only have a few hives and can take the time to keep up with them, it looks like you can really direct the bees to manage their hive in a way that allows you to achieve your goals as well as the bees' goals. One thing I've taken away from my study of the subject is that bees are wild animals that can't be trained. You're working within a natural system that seems to be designed to resist manipulations that try to change the ingrained behaviors of the bees. Being able to manipulate the combs without the bees being much disturbed seems like a tool that could be very powerful, with some study and insight.

Speaking of that, (and not to encourage thread driuft, but...) I'm reading an ancient book by M. Quinby. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/25185/25185-h/25185-h.htm#II 
It was published in 1853, so he got a lot of the biology a little wrong, but what impresses me about the book is the intensity he brought to his observations. I'm guessing that intensity may be the difference between good beekeepers and great beekeepers.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I might add - since I practice desert beekeeping; I use corrugated tin wrapped around these hives as a sun shield, at least the ones in the hot desert. The mountain hives have the opposite problem. 

Also - I first started with full 48" stud length hives, and now only use a 32" hive. The bees rarely filled the 48" all the way to the end and it simply harbored spiders and other pests. A 32" hive is still the equivalent of 3 eight frame deep boxes and can develop and enormous amount of bees if managed properly. You just super it for more space.

My 48" hives are monsters. They can generate a terrifying amount of bees - they are basically 4 deeps on their side.

Another benefit of a horizontal hive, at least for us rural folk, is that cows cannot kick them over and most people don't recognize them as a bee-hive. Now animals have lifted my lids off a few times, thinking they were a feed trough. You just have to make sure they are secured very well. I use bungie cords and hive straps.

Inner covers - I used to use them, now I use a two or three piece insulated split top cover. Sometimes I uses a feedbag for an innercover. The wooden inner covers didn't work out so well. I do use a piece of burlap as a hive cloth when I work with them - to keep the sections of the hive covered I am not working with. It serves two purposes here - it calms the bees (mine are "survivors" and can be quite testy) and it keeps the hot desert sun off the comb. The comb can melt in seconds and collapse if exposed to full radiant sunlight.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Paul, thanks much for the additional info. Could you elaborate on the problems you had with inner covers? I'm debating how to handle them now, but I have a bias toward simplicity, whenever possible. I do like the idea of keeping the sections I'm not working covered.

Do you worry about water getting into through the cover section seams? I know you're in the desert mostly, but we have a lot of precip both in FL and NY, so I've wondered about water proofing.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

Very interesting thread. I went in a somewhat different direction with my horizontal. It's one of those projects that snowballed on me. I've got the basic build done, but I have a few parts yet to make and closeable vent holes in the cover to add. I'm also contemplating a lift assist for the lid like you see on a car hood to hold the lid open. The whole hive is triple ply. 3/4 pine on the inside and outside with 1" foam board core. R value should be about 7. The doubled pine and foam board keeps it rigid across the length and it seals up tight with beveled top edges. Ok my description is horrible I'll go take some pics and try to post when I get back home from practice tonight.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok snapped some quick photos let's see if I can post them quick before I leave.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

That's a nice one Mr. C! Almost like a euro style longhive. I tried to keep mine light and simple so I can move them easily. They are designed to fit in the bed of a pick-up truck.

As far as inner covers and seams... I have overlapping lips built into the lids (which also double as a telescoping cover for a regular hive). These lips and the insulation underneath provide enough of a seal that water is not an issue. I also toss a corrugated tin cover across it to divert water away. My latest ones have the tin cover built on to the lid with an overlap across the seam.

We may be desert, but when it rains it RAINS!


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

Nice pics Mr. C, are you dealing with extreme cold?


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## rmcpb (Aug 15, 2012)

Another way to handle the top cover problem is at this site.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

rmcpb said:


> Another way to handle the top cover problem is at this site.


I saw that site in the design phase of the one I built/am building. It gets cold here, but not terribly cold. I wanted a low maintenance hive regardless of construction cost and was trying to avoid having to wrap etc in the fall. It will have four removeable floors under the screen so I can adjust ventilation in different parts of the hive. I found that with open bottoms the queen was abandoning the bottom of my regular hives. Someone mentioned that they saw this with open bottoms and thought it was because of the difficult for the bees to regulate the temp in the bottom because of all the air flow there. I also wanted to make sure there was plenty of room to feed in the top etc. There's enough room in the top to fit a medium 5frame nuc in the top if I wanted to super, but I figure that kind of defeats the purpose of the horizontal. Anyway just some thoughts. I'll post again when it's finally finished and on its stand.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Very interesting thread. My story is that bees actually forced me to go horizontal. That particular colony just refused to grow up... So, I build for them 2x horizontal hive. The idea was that dimensions would be so that normal 1x hardware may be used. So, stand and box have 2x dimensions, inner covers, lids, sticky boards etc - normal 1x. Stand accommodates two 1x slots for sticky board or oil pan. There are two 1x inner covers on top. Box is just box exactly as 2 deeps side by side - it could accommodate 2 supers on the top side by side. The same 1x inner covers would be used. Bottom of the box is screened. I am using the foundationless top bars or normal frames with adapter. The "roof" is actually two overlapping pieces of corrugated metal. Since two identical inner covers, I have the option to work the nest or storage or both. *Rhaldridge* suggested to make a window in the inner covers for observation - great idea! The entrance is a long slit with tilted landing deck on the long side of the hive. It is approximately 1/3 high from the bottom - I read somewhere that it imitates the crack in the horizontal log, bees often occupy in nature. Nice landing deck is my addition - could not resist. So far, bees love this hive and it just full of bees! I added super last week and there are two frames already filled with nectar and honey. What amused me is that it looks like, bees are much more calm with this setup. Normally,my bees are quite protective (african genes I guess) and I have quite a bit of head bumps... Also, it seems to me that bees are less readily swarm in this hive. Today I did a walk away split and did not see any swarm cells - I am little bit concern if split would be successful. 

So, I am in Southern California. For climate control I am using adjustable screened bottoms. Screened hole in the inner cover is also a possibility, but my bees do not like it. As for entrance - my slit works fine to me. I would probably add the top entrance (3/4" hole) with the second super (on top of the first one) if necessary.


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