# "Why Do They DO That?"



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Did y'all read the article in January's ABJ titled "Why Do They DO That?"? Stacy McKenna states a number of time that "Commercial migratory beekeepers move their bees from crop to crop because otherwise the bees would starve." Is that why you move yours?

There is more to her article, but that quote occurs a number of time and is used to explain why commercial migratory beekeepers do what they do.


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## Heintz88 (Feb 26, 2012)

Move bees to make moneyzzzz.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Because I am a greedy capitalist and want to make money$$$:thumbsup:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So, were a small scale beekeeper to ask you why you don't just leave your hives in one place and make money from making honey is that what you would tell them? Seriously?


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

Sure, money is why we all get out of bed in the morning. Maybe that is sad but I think it is true.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Seriously, my answer might be so detailed that there eyes would start to glaze over.Like when someone who knows nothing of bee biology asks how do you make a new queen?

You try to give them an answer they can comprehend and spare the gory details.
But yes ,its economics. If the bees starve, so do I.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Too bad an ABJ author is so unqualified and unacknowledged. Sounds like the beekeeping gurus who speak at our local club.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>answer might be so detailed that there eyes would start to glaze over.>>

Ha ha, I have learned how to chat about bees with friends and neighbours, the conversation has to be brief, generic, with the words honey, queen and sting more than once and With mention of the weather being good or bad for the bees. Lol 
And I'm not even kidding !


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Ian said:


> >>answer might be so detailed that there eyes would start to glaze over.>>
> 
> Ha ha, I have learned how to chat about bees with friends and neighbours, the conversation has to be brief, generic, with the words honey, queen and sting more than once and With mention of the weather being good or bad for the bees. Lol
> And I'm not even kidding !


The traveling pollinator in "More than honey" says the same thing.....they will die

Got another question in addition to the original. So far almolds guys and gals, if there was another crop of something else there in the almond groves for later season comparable to montana to make honey crop (if it wasn't a mono-crop desert) would you move your bees north to pollinate cherries, apples, etc or keep them there all season long. 

I guess this is sort of a silly question, because if this was true i think the growers would just keep their own bees.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

odfrank said:


> Sounds like the beekeeping gurus who speak at our local club.



Don't feel so bad. This disease resides elsewhere in your vicinity. On two occasions a few years back I decided to dawn the halls of the knowledge at the Mt Diablo bee club cause they were going to ask me to speak and I thought I ought to scope it out before committing suicide. Boy was that a learning experience... After the second visit I decided the best rule any bee club could institute is making all the 5 years and less beeks wear champagne corks between their teeth with a whole roll of duct tape rolled around their skulls to keep their lips from flapping during the whole meeting. 

I heard the most atrocious advice from 2 year beeks who thought they were Brother Adam, Charles Dadant, Steve Tabor, and all the other bee greats all reincarnated and wrapped up in one person. (themselves) If I had the powers to reshaped myself to be thinner than a hive tool I would have slithered out faster than drones jump on top of the queens on an 80 degree spring day.

Anybody with editorial insight on board at the ABJ.... ?


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

loggermike said:


> Because I am a greedy capitalist and want to make money$$$:thumbsup:


Amen to that brother. $$$:thumbsup: Living the dream.


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## Z-B (Jun 4, 2013)

Honey-4-All said:


> Don't feel so bad. This disease resides elsewhere in your vicinity. On two occasions a few years back I decided to dawn the halls of the knowledge at the Mt Diablo bee club cause they were going to ask me to speak and I thought I ought to scope it out before committing suicide. Boy was that a learning experience... After the second visit I decided the best rule any bee club could institute is making all the 5 years and less beeks wear champagne corks between their teeth with a whole roll of duct tape rolled around their skulls to keep their lips from flapping during the whole meeting.
> 
> I heard the most atrocious advice from 2 year beeks who thought they were Brother Adam, Charles Dadant, Steve Tabor, and all the other bee greats all reincarnated and wrapped up in one person. (themselves) If I had the powers to reshaped myself to be thinner than a hive tool I would have slithered out faster than drones jump on top of the queens on an 80 degree spring day.
> 
> Anybody with editorial insight on board at the ABJ.... ?


Where I work we call new people ike that the 2-20's. two years experience with a twenty year attitude.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

sounds like she got the tidbit, " they will starve in the almond patches" and ran with it......


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Did y'all read the article in January's ABJ titled "Why Do They DO That?"?


Well, did ya?


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

We are starting this year to do it, to provide extra operating capitol to pay for the semi to go from Texas to ND and back, among other expenses.


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## Maddox65804 (Dec 29, 2011)

Yes, I read it. I was surprised they would run such an article. There were several erroneous factoids. She obviously is not a well educated beekeeper. From her brief description, it sounds like she may have just started. I am used to better articles in ABJ. The editors should have helped her put out correct information.

On another note, I just finished reading "A beekeeper's Lament" by Hannah Nordhaus. It is a good read but is also plagued by multiple incorrect "facts" about bee biology. She has more latitude with editing though. 

I do not wish to control or restrict a writer's freedom. It would be nice if the information they put out was fact checked by a knowledgeable source though.


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## stacymckenna (Jan 6, 2014)

Actually gmcharlie, I got "they'd starve" from beekeepers telling me why the bothered to cross state lines to COME to almonds, instead of staying home in Idaho or Iowa (I forget which - it was five years ago and I wasn't taking notes - sorry!). 

Jeffrey Maddox - I welcome correction on all inaccuracies either here or via ABJ's letters to the editor. My intent with my publication and work in the beekeeping sphere is always to try and improve the quality of information being shared with people, particularly the public and novice beekeepers. If there are regional considerations I left out due to ignorance, or other factors I just haven't digested yet, I'd love to know about them! Please, educate me!

odfrank - I prepared this article originally as a presentation for my local club to clue the "2-20s" (thanks, Z-B - great term!) into why our commercial members do what they do (they get a lot of flak here in La-La Land about treating their hives, moving their hives, even feeding their hives), and why it doesn't all work the way pie-in-the-sky feel-good environmentalists want it to work. After I presented at my local club, the commercial guys in the group encouraged me to submit it for publication because they said I'd nailed it as far as their situation is concerned - when they move apiary locations locally it's all about the forage, with the $$ as bonus on longer hauls when they can get it. I wouldn't have even considered publishing if it weren't for their prodding. Several of the CSBA board members asked at convention if they could distribute it to THEIR local "2-20s" as well to help explain where they're coming from, so the feedback I've gotten so far is that I had a good handle on it for someone who's not living it day-in-day-out.

As for who I am and what I know, yes, I am absolutely a newbie when it comes to beekeeping. I haven't managed to keep a colony alive for a full year in the three I've tried. I suck at it. But I've been absorbing as much information as I possibly can for the past 5 years, including attending the full run of every CSBA convention in that time, on top of a background in environmental engineering. The article was based on info I've gleaned from talking to people like Dr. Eric Mussen, Randy Oliver, John Miller, and Dave Mendes over the past 5 years, as well as hearing presentations from dozens of their peers both in research and commercial areas. ABJ's editor congratulated me on a job well done, so I didn't get any corrective feedback from that end. 

Yes, it's about the money too. And I do say in my article that the money is important. But beekeepers can't make money on dead bees. There's a reason so many research projects are focused on nutrition and so many current initiatives are focused on forage creation. Much of the CSBA convention this year was focused on it (and I prepped this presentation before this year's convention). Some beeks can keep their girls at home and keep them alive on local forage (and we envy them!). Some move their girls only locally for the bonus pollination fees bring in (yay, $$$!). But schlepping semis from Florida or Maine or Iowa requires serious incentive, and for many of those beeks, it's about chasing forage.

Stacy McKenna
Secretary
Los Angeles County Beekeepers Association


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hey Stacy,
Thanks for coming out and participating in the discussion. I started this Thread because of what one of our larger NY State beekeepers said about it explaining why we do what we do. Me on a scale smaller than he, he on a scale 7 or 8 times mine. Just wondering though, wouldn't "Because *we* might starve." be a little bit more accurate? Though I do know some commercial beekeepers who don't move and don't starve. So, just a thought.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Stacy, welcome, and congratulations on being able to discuss your "position".... Your right about starving if they try to leave them in Almonds. absolutely no forage after the trees are done... If you get a chancy you really SHOULD take a drive up to the valley during almonds... you will be astounded.
Try to stick with the commercial guys on the good side. most of them have literally forgotten more about beekeeping than most of will ever know. And without what they do, the hobbyist would be in deep trouble also.


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## stacymckenna (Jan 6, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Just wondering though, wouldn't "Because *we* might starve." be a little bit more accurate?


The way you've stated it there is absolutely true. Whether "we" is the commercial beekeeper trying to pay to keep food on the table, or "we" is the regular Joe eating food pollinated by bees, your wording is still perfect. 

The quote attributed to Einstein about the world running out of food within 3 years without bees gets plenty of press - I didn't feel like people were missing that point about why bees are used to pollinate crops. I emphasized the facets I did because so much of the media attention and film documentaries I've seen lately about bees seems to represent commercial migratory beekeepers as money-grubbing environment-disrespecting BigAg folk ("The Man" in some fashion). And I've never met a beekeeper I would classify in that category. Not even Jerry Hayes or Gordy Wardell. 

There are a myriad of reasons why beekeepers go to almonds or migrate for other pollination crops. Every single case is different based on their location, weather, even infrastructure and equipment holdings. Trying to explain all of those cases in one article would be an exercise in futility. And I did mention that many beekeepers/farmers in those "blue" areas on Neal Williams' map could manage bees without moving. But when I talk to new club members and the general public, the beekeeper that confuses people most is the one that runs a migratory operation. They don't get it. For a long time I didn't get it, and likely in many cases still don't understand completely. So this explanation was an attempt to explain some of the lesser understood factors behind the decisions migratory beekeepers have made over the years, and the reason I've heard many of them cite for not dropping out of the migratory loop is forage-based.


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## stacymckenna (Jan 6, 2014)

gmcharlie - 
One of my fellow club members is the woman who did the photography for Kim Flottum's recent "Almond Odyssey" series in Bee Culture, and it was her photos that she generously allowed me to use in the article. I'm pretty familiar with the Valley in almond season from her work/reports, and just from generally driving through en route to points north. The huge swaths of vacant farmland barren on account of the water struggles we're having, much less the lack of intercropping and combined planting, is heartbreaking from multiple perspectives. The thing I found surprising is learning that, from a bee perspective, much of America's heartland is also this barren of suitable forage, even when water is available. While I admire the intent of the Green Revolution and the industrial agriculture that aimed at feeding everyone, there were unfortunate unintended consequences we're having to figure out how to cope with/correct.

I absolutely gravitate to beekeepers, both hobbyist, small-scale, and commercial, whose focus is on the bees and their long-term sustainability. Most of the beeks I hang out with are concerned about the health of their bees first and foremost, rather than cutting corners for quick profits at the expense of their girls. There is no way I'll ever be able to book-learn enough to compare with the experience these folk get being in the hives day in and day out, seeing the responses from the hives to weather, smoke, parasites, disease, travel, the phase of the moon, you name it. I hugely respect the knowledge and experience the long-term beekeepers can give me about how beekeeping used to be, how it is now, and which factors they think are most crucial in effecting those shifts.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Stacy, your wrong. what you need to do is look at that section of I5 thats dead over the water rights. About a 10 mile stretch there that the trees are skeletons (at least were still in the ground last year) Thats what that valley used to be like... Its a desert.... and thru the miracles of farming, its producing huge amounts of crops. Your looking at it like it was some peaceful valley of flowers. before hand. Don't dispair over the temp shortage of water, reflect on what thats what it looked like before irrigation.

While its true some areas here in the midwest, are a lot more barren than they used to be as far as the bees are concerned. its not all that bad. In fact my worst enemy is the state DOT.. who mow off the forage faster than most farmers.
Very little of the heartland is "barren" but it may be a mile or two between fencerows. Keep in mind that most of these area used to be prarigrass, which is terrible forage also. not to mention honeybees are relative newcomers
even with modern AG farming fencerow to fencerow, there are darn FEW area that won't support a normal balance of bees.
No you can;t put 100 hives per square mile where I am.. 8 is about the limit....BUT in some areas of the Dakotas and OH, you can.. why? modern AG... and 50 years ago, you couldn't...

Its also key to note that modern AG is attempting to move away from sprayed applications of pesticides. another sticky issue for writers and journalist. I hope you can since yoru new, look at it with a different set of eyes than the typical writer.

Charlie


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## stacymckenna (Jan 6, 2014)

Charlie - 

I know exactly which stretches you're talking about, and I've been driving the I5 for 40 years. I remember when it was largely cotton - what a water rights outrage that was! But works like John Muir's about the San Joaquin Valley wouldn't exist if there was nothing worth looking at in that valley before the farming development came in. I certainly don't claim our valley was an Eden of lush vegetation - even Muir specified that the place was a hot, dry winter between May and December. There's a reason Mulholland had to go all the way to Owens Valley and the Colorado to steal enough water for Angelenos to manage. (My degree was actually civil/environmental engineering so I am pretty familiar with the underlying water issues here.) But it was certainly more hospitable to bees (native or imported) before development than it is now. 

In the rest of the country I can only rely on the reports of the beekeepers that live there, and what they see. If they tell me they COULD keep their bees at home 30-50 years ago and they can't now because the farming culture has changed so much, I trust what they say is true, just as I trust that some of the regions you talk about see improved forage because of the shifts in farming practices. The fact remains that many people involved in commercial migratory farming move their bees because there's not the forage available that there used to be, and their bees can no longer manage by staying home - and it's more probable I would encounter THEM at a CA convention than I would the beeks seeing better stay-at-home forage, so I appreciate the info from other sections! Thank you!

As for the DOT, that's a HUGE issue - the constant struggle out here is the tipping point between fire hazard and bee forage. Local fire departments want things cleared as early as possible, and pushing that date back just isn't possible for the DOT the entire way up the state - only so many man hours and equipment to do that work, and sometimes the bees lose to the schedules. I know some beeks have had luck with incorporating bee forage in DOT plantings along highways (Judge O'Hanlon was telling the CSBA convention about the progress they've made in WV).

On big Ag, I don't believe they're evil. I'm an engineer by training and am a big fan of better living through science. I don't believe the scientists at the big chemical companies sit in their cubicles trying to think up ways to make all of us suffer - I do honestly believe they are doing their ****edest to figure out ways to help corps turn profits AND keep bees alive AND protect the health of the populace. It's just tricky, tricky work and there's never any way to predict ALL the results of new procedures/products. Many of the farmers who work with the commercial guys I know are working to minimize negative impact on bees, because they know it's good for their long term sustainability. I've met bee habitat landscaping pros who work with CA vineyards planting forage between the vines, and they say it helps not only with field appearance and bee population numbers, but the roots of certain flowering plants help make the soil even better for the vineyards' water distribution/retention. Bonus: healthier vines means less reliance on pesticides (though I don't expect we'll ever go without when it comes to many crops). Trying to find solutions that solve or improve multiple issues at one time is the key to figuring out how to simultaneously keep farm productivity up, bee populations up, and public relations happy. In fact, I believe there was recently a new pesticide that got shot down by environmental groups before it ever hit market despite the fact that full exposure during foraging hours seemed to have no effect on the bees - many of the beeks I knew were angry that farmers wouldn't have a new potentially bee-safer option available. I am all about recognizing the problems and limitations faced by participants on all sides and working together on a direction that will help everyone.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Stacy
One thing I can't quite get my head around is why someone wants to go from 1,000 to 2,000 and then to 3,500. And then to who knows how many. Why someone wants to regularly work 60 hours a week, employ a half dozen or more people, have houses in three States, own trucks and trailers and loaders, have more than one extracting plant, etc., etc. 

I'm not driven to do that. I have around 500 hives and work by myself and don't work as hard as most of the other commercial beekeepers I know. I'm not built that way.

But apparently there are people that are or there wouldn't be any almonds and not very many blueberries and apples that are deformed, etc.,etc. So thank goodness there are people that know how to work and enjoy doing it or we would be poorer for it.

I have a hard time understanding what drives my friends to do what they do. How can someone who doesn't even do what I do understand?

What people who don't know don't get is that just because they don't understand something doesn't mean that someone is doing something they shouldn't. I don't eat many almonds but w/ every bite of an Anjou or Bartlett Pear I am thankful for commercial migratory beekeepers.


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## stacymckenna (Jan 6, 2014)

I agree - it's a very specific personality that can handle even a sideliner operation much less one of the big outfits. Commercial beekeepers are some of the hardest working people I know. I'm not sure anyone who doesn't have that urge can understand. For some of them it's an inheritance - the Ashursts, for instance - everyone in the family does it, and the operations just mushroom. For some it may just be they had a smaller operation and as the industry evolved, they evolved with it, and since there was a family to provide for, and a mortgage to pay, colony counts just had to keep up to pay for the rigs and the honey houses and all the rest, which required more honey houses and more employees and more residences which generated more need for more colonies... One of the biggest concerns of most of the aging migratory beeks I know is "who will take over after me?" especially since the business is so high risk and it's so hard to find anyone who can finance a buy-out since the majority of banks won't loan on such an endeavor. Given that our national colony count is down and our agricultural demand keeps climbing, this is a major concern industry-wide, of both farmers and beekeepers, not to mention consumers. It's like being stuck on a carousel spinning too fast for us to jump off safely...


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

I look at it from much different eyes. I am just short of 50. Most of the waxing for the "good ole days" is rose colored glasses and Alzheimers. Yep more hives in the 40,s because you could't go to the store and get sugar. 
That Valley in CA is a miracle of modern farming. almost 2 million hives moved in... a crop the did NOT try to cross out the need for bees. And yes you hear a lot of stories, but if it was the dieses center you hear about, no one would go. How many reports do you have of I want to CA and came home and my hives died?? Migratory beeks on the scale we have now are new inventions. Crops that generate the volumes they do and feed the world, are miracles, not a problem. 
Where your seeing a "problem" is a huge opportunity. you don't hear guys complaining about the almonds, in fact its the opposite. Hoping like heck they keep planting more and the value keeps rising. it is a "gold rush" with no end in sight.

here in the midwest things are good also. Some pesticide improvements have been made much better than the 70's when everything got sprayed. yes some loss of habitat in small areas, more in others More "urbanites" have increased the numbers of small lots not farmed, and CRP and the value of deer hunting and such has increased a lot of areas for forage. More forage now than their was in the 80's in most areas.
Honey yeilds in most areas are the same as they were 100 years ago.
Yup we got a few issues. Varroa huge.. planter dust in some areas seems to be a problem.

But Via the internet, you can buy a package of bees in 10 minutes! more hobbyist than every before. in 1980 if your didn't know somebody you were pretty much out of luck.

Lose the doom and gloom... look at the cool factor of what is 100 miles up the road,,, and happening everywhere. and don't fall for the chicken little sky falling garbage.


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## stacymckenna (Jan 6, 2014)

Charlie -

I totally agree that the current farming system, especially in CA's central valley, is a modern miracle. I don't wax for the good old days - I love the internet and modern medicine and international trade. The number of people we can feed, and the places where we can grow that food are STUNNING. And we're getting better at it all the time. But everything has side effects. Did the Chrysler and Empire State buildings shade out nearby gardens? Possibly, but that by no means implies they shouldn't have been built. I am not in any way doom and gloom or chicken little about it. I just acknowledge the reality that the current system is creating complications. Beekeepers are finding it harder and harder to keep those miraculous farm plots supplied reliably with bees. This year, thanks to the horrendous cold on the east and the record winter heat over here mean timing bees with almonds may be the hardest it's been in your lifetime - in no small part because there are so MANY almonds now. (Though as John Miller once said - plant more, I want us all driving Escalades because we're all doing so well. Though they are working on crossing out the need for bees - the self-pollinating varieties are coming...) Migratory beekeeping as it is now IS a new invention - our farming industry is unlike anything that's gone before. But engineers love layers of redundant fail-safes, and our current system is not well equipped in that regard. I'd love to find ways to insure at least this level of productivity, but easier on bees, easier on farmer, easier on beekeepers. As Mark says - who wants to work that hard? I'm all for making the system work BETTER. And if that means adding supplemental forage in places where we've eliminated it WITHOUT cutting into farmer's productive crop land, where's the problem with that?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Two points on the dry fallow areas on the westside-southern SJ visible from I-5.

Much of that are is underlain by marine sediment high in Selenium. It is fallowed because it must be drained to remove salt build-up, and dissolved Selenium flowed to drainage ponds -- causing in just 2 years one of the most horrific environmental disasters in modern times -- The Kesterson Slough. 

The land was fallowed when Federal water delivery was ended to stop the drainage flow (and land-owners were paid really big bucks as injured parties for the cut-off).

The land is the hands of the Westlands Water District. Westlands is an enormous water purveyor, and has shifted its "business" model to selling its state allotment to Southern California (Palmdale, Lancaster, San Bernandino). Westlands has bought up Sacramento Valley allotment (from Colusa County) and is "wheeling" that water to the deep pockets in Southern California.

The fallow land (and the political signs pointing it out) are just a display by Westlands to ensure the state does not restrict its "ag" allotment --despite the fact it sells the water to the Suburban Sprawl.

Remember there is state water and federal water, and rules are different for the two supplies.

Worked with alternative crops (Pomegranate largely) and remediation using saltgrass/barley cropping in the area in question. The really big landowners would rather stay fallow (sell water, not cotton), but smaller holdings are making a new living on smart crops for the marine clay desert.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

loggermike said:


> Seriously, my answer might be so detailed that there eyes would start to glaze over.Like when someone who knows nothing of bee biology asks how do you make a new queen?


It is soooo hard to know what level of detail to go into. I've had negative feedback (failing an EAS Master Beekeeper Exam) because I was deliberately avoiding the use of any term that might be considered technical in a hypothetical ****tail conversation. (Please pardon this intrusion by a hobbyist into the commercial forum - I'll go back to lurking now. :lookout


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Okay, thanks. :applause::gh:


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