# Langstroth Foundationless Beekeeping in hot humid weather?



## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

Your issue is cross combing, not foundation-less (and cross combing isn't inherent with foundation-less). We introduce empty frames between perfectly drawn out frames of comb and it works just fine. Even well drawn foundation-less frames can have issues if worked in 90+ degree weather.


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## johnwratcliff (Feb 24, 2015)

i live in the Nashville area. I feel your pain with the heat and humidity. the wax will harden as the bees paint it with propolis(sp?). you have to make sure your hives are level. you have to also make sure you have a guide for them to build off of. that can be Kelley F style frames or your can just make some strips our of foundation. all my hive are mostly foundationless. I have 20+ colonies. I've caught swarms and just had them start their own and other times I've had extra comb to give them a boost. if they are building wonky or cross comb it will always be a mess. I almost always carry rubber bands for that reason. I do have a brood box that is full of wonky comb...I don't look in it very often. lol this is on my hive that has stung me more times then any other hive. they get to do what they want.


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## jthompson333 (May 4, 2015)

ChuckReburn said:


> Your issue is cross combing, not foundation-less (and cross combing isn't inherent with foundation-less). We introduce empty frames between perfectly drawn out frames of comb and it works just fine. Even well drawn foundation-less frames can have issues if worked in 90+ degree weather.


Hmm. Interesting. The climate here is 90+ degree weather 8 months out of the year. So I wonder if its worth the hassle. I'm only a backyard guy anyway. I guess that's why a lot of the folks that do treatment free with a large number of hives just use foundation.


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## jthompson333 (May 4, 2015)

johnwratcliff said:


> i live in the Nashville area. I feel your pain with the heat and humidity. the wax will harden as the bees paint it with propolis(sp?). you have to make sure your hives are level. you have to also make sure you have a guide for them to build off of. that can be Kelley F style frames or your can just make some strips our of foundation. all my hive are mostly foundationless. I have 20+ colonies. I've caught swarms and just had them start their own and other times I've had extra comb to give them a boost. if they are building wonky or cross comb it will always be a mess. I almost always carry rubber bands for that reason. I do have a brood box that is full of wonky comb...I don't look in it very often. lol this is on my hive that has stung me more times then any other hive. they get to do what they want.


I did actually use the Kelly F Frames.
I used a carpenter level to make sure the hive was at least as level as I could make it (eyeball and using the level).

The biggest issue was that they would build out 3/4 of a frame, then build cross comb over to the other one.
So the only way I could get them out was to pull 2 frames at a time. Of course when I did that, the cross comb just fell out all over my feet.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Trim the comb, it's your job as a beek to guide them correctly.


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## jthompson333 (May 4, 2015)

DavidZ said:


> Trim the comb, it's your job as a beek to guide them correctly.


So are you typically going into the hive more often then, if you are trimming the comb?
I.E., do you have to trim it before they start capping it with honey?

They seem to build it pretty quick- i.e. one 8 frame in a week or two.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

jthompson333 said:


> Hmm. Interesting. The climate here is 90+ degree weather 8 months out of the year. So I wonder if its worth the hassle. I'm only a backyard guy anyway. I guess that's why a lot of the folks that do treatment free with a large number of hives just use foundation.


Even on our hottest 100+ degree days, mornings are cool enough to work the comb - get in and get out fast. Managing over 100 hives, around half top bars, langs have a portion of the combs as foundation-less.

Foundation-less requires a bit more management and has it's pros and cons. The "trick" in either style hive is to manage them early on to get straight comb drawn and for the most part, that means comb drawn between 2 other pieces of straight comb.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

jthompson333 said:


> So are you typically going into the hive more often then, if you are trimming the comb?
> I.E., do you have to trim it before they start capping it with honey?


Every 3-4 days. A week is too long. One of the main reasons I abandoned foundationless.

And on a good flow when you're adding a super and it's being drawn and filled in about a week... forget it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There are two issues here. Crosscombing is one and heat or no heat that's a different issue. Heat is another issue. New soft white comb in hot weather is not something you should mess with. You should, of course, head off the cross combing before it spreads. One bad comb leads to another. One good comb leads to another. Once you have some straight comb putting empty frames between two drawn brood combs is the most reliable way to get combs drawn straight. But also pulling a straight drawn comb up into boxes you are adding greatly improves your odds of getting good straight comb. It's not difficult at all in the brood nest to get straight comb, especially if you have some straight comb. It's trickier in the supers because honey comb varies in thickness while brood comb does not.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

As most have already pointed out, comb management is critical and exacerbated if you have more than one undrawn frame next to each other. However, there a couple of additional considerations with foundationless. You can string or wire the frames to add support; frames heavy with honey can become detached if not handled correctly, particularly if not attached on 4 "sides." Never turn the frame on it's side, keep it orientated as it is positioned in the hive or rotate it on its end.


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## jthompson333 (May 4, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> There are two issues here. Crosscombing is one and heat or no heat that's a different issue. Heat is another issue. New soft white comb in hot weather is not something you should mess with. You should, of course, head off the cross combing before it spreads. One bad comb leads to another. One good comb leads to another. Once you have some straight comb putting empty frames between two drawn brood combs is the most reliable way to get combs drawn straight. But also pulling a straight drawn comb up into boxes you are adding greatly improves your odds of getting good straight comb. It's not difficult at all in the brood nest to get straight comb, especially if you have some straight comb. It's trickier in the supers because honey comb varies in thickness while brood comb does not.


Ok. That makes sense. 

The boxes with honey definitely were thicker comb and hard to get in and out.
And in the beginning I didn't have any actual drawn comb to give them as a guide. I suppose I should have put more foundation in to help them start...

Being a hobbyist with another full time job- I'm not sure that I have time to check them every 3-4 days.

The other main issue I had with this hive, was that they weren't the nicest- even though they started in a deep nuc (purchased from a local beekeeper).
Moving frames from box to box was difficult- I guess because I let them "mess" it up in the beginning.

The irony is that the state inspector came out in the rain, and they were the nicest I've ever seen them.
She found some varroa (so maybe there are multiple things going on, that are making them angry).

Anyway, Onward and upward as they say.


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## jthompson333 (May 4, 2015)

Eikel said:


> As most have already pointed out, comb management is critical and exacerbated if you have more than one undrawn frame next to each other. However, there a couple of additional considerations with foundationless. You can string or wire the frames to add support; frames heavy with honey can become detached if not handled correctly, particularly if not attached on 4 "sides." Never turn the frame on it's side, keep it orientated as it is positioned in the hive or rotate it on its end.


Yeah definitely, the one where the comb fell onto the ground was not attached on 4 sides, and it had cross comb.
I was actually trying to take it out, and put in another frame hoping to correct things, but, I guess if the frame next to it had a gap as well- it probably wouldn't have made much difference from what you guys are saying.


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## jthompson333 (May 4, 2015)

Thanks all for the input. I really appreciate it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Being a hobbyist with another full time job- I'm not sure that I have time to check them every 3-4 days.

Once you get drawn comb, it doesn't take that much. Just when you have none. Also, don't worry so much about the supers. If you put drawn comb in them it will help a lot. But if they mess it up, you can always crush and strain it to get the honey. If you can't pull a frame out, flip the box upside down and you can lift the box off of the frames. Then you can get to them without the box in the way and pull them apart.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

In the brood area in the spring, you can get really nice straight comb. Its when the honey flow begins when things get complicated. I'll use drawn comb, empty frame, plastic foundation to encourage not too wonky comb. If things get wonky I'll put it too the outside, or put plastic foundation next to it. I try to encourage most comb building in the brood area once it gets warm. Probably I'll start using queen excluders more to make sure the brood area stays put.


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## a_bee_in_az (Apr 11, 2016)

We are mostly just hot here in Arizona (although a few bouts of humidity during monsoon season) and I found this first year that the combs did okay so long as they were attached on a few sides. Did not have much cross combing with my surviving hive so what I can say is that after you get that sorted out, they should build them one-next-to-the-other and the combs should hold up. 

Had a heck of a time with combs falling off top bars (deep lang sized), won't do that again, but foundationless went okay so long as the combs were connected to the sides a bit.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I've had very few collapses in summer. This extraction season I've had only one collapse. The rubber bands didn't quite hold it and I started a bit too fast. 

I've had more a problem in early spring. Transporting comb with honey in coldish weather has some breaking off.


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## Bryan4916 (Jun 5, 2012)

I'm just not that OCD when it comes to comb straightness. Instead, I moved to all medium boxes and carry a fish fillet knife with my hive tool and changed my management approach. Smaller hives that need closer attention stay in 5 frame nuc boxes stacked as high as needed. The comb they build is almost always straight and clean. Honey can get fat but there is usually that one frame that allows the rest to come out in one piece. Production sized hives get a quick check to each box from above and below. It tells me when and where to place an empty box and if they have swarm cells. Anything more is just a disruption to the hive and a waste of time unless I see a reason to reclassify them as nucs. 

I like to harvest by the box too but it doesn't always work out that way. I crush and strain with a fruit press all my harvest so nothing needs to fit a slinger. I always add a filled frame to a new box from somewhere in the hive.


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