# Do I really need to medicate?



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

It is not a must that you treat for diseases and pests. However, not doing so greatly increases the likelyhood that you will be spending your money on bees instead. Strong hives crash the fastest when it comes to mites. Weak hives succumb to SHB and wax moth infestations.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

you don't necessarily need to "medicate", but you will need to do something to manage the mite population in each hive.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

I was in a similar boat five years ago when I just started out.

Trust us on this - do something to monitor and treat for mites. A huge, booming, healthy hive will mite crash so fast it will make your head spin. OAV is a good option.


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## Aaron.koe (Jul 7, 2018)

I bought some Hopguard2 strips when they were on sale earlier this year.

Any experience using these? I was planning to add them at the end of this month when I think the brood is more dormant.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Aaron.koe said:


> I was planning to add them at the end of this month when I think the brood is more dormant.


Waiting until brood rearing slows or stops is too late to do much good. You need healthy, unparasitizied winter bees.
Hopguard wouldn't be my first....second....or even third choice.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

Hopguard. Company should be banned. We try everything that looks like it has a chance to give us some kill on the mites. Sorry you got took in. I wish the suppliers would drop them for ethics.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Whats wrong with Hopguard? I have never used it and have never heard anything bad about it until now?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've been not medicating for anything for 39 of the last 44 years. Certainly just because you haven't had issues doesn't mean you won't have issues. But again, just because you treat doesn't mean you won't have issues.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm


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## Murdock (Jun 16, 2013)

Welcome to the forum. This is a great hobby and the forum is a really good source of information. 2 hives same age 1 is great and 1 is so-so. I would suggest that you do a mite check immediately; alcohol wash is fastest. Mites in the small hive might be the reason it is slower. Using smoke will help move the bees so you don't crush so many but some will bite the dust. Review your methods, sitting boxes down can be done without crushing a lot of bees, you do it quickly at an angle over the top. You may not need to unstack both deeps every inspection especially during a flow. Forget disease treatments until you have proof of a problem. Treat for mites with OA in fall and spring. You may not have a broodless period so you will have to treat 3-4 times, a week apart, at each interval. Join a bee club and GET A MENTOR to show you the ropes. Check out SCIENTIFIC BEEKEEPING on his website. i've never had a disease problem and I have had my bees checked by the state inspector. My hive losses came from not checking robbing soon enough and having a queen failure in December. You need robbing screens and mouse guards, close the entrance down with wire so you keep good ventilation. GET A MENTOR, I've been keeping bees for a while and I still talk to my mentor almost weekly to compare notes.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> I've been not medicating for anything for 39 of the last 44 years.


Michael - there are two things which puzzle me whenever you make this, or a similar claim:

a) how is it you're not exporting your genetics country-wide in order to start a varroa-related beekeeping revolution ? Unless it's not a genetics issue but more of a locally-dependent phenomena, of course. And,

b) why on earth don't you invite some post-grad students over to research at your apiary, in order to objectively analyse the methodology being employed ?

Imo, these steps would seem far more beneficial to the wider world of beekeeping than repetitively cheerleading this assertion from the sidelines ...
LJ


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Generally there are 3 kinds of beekeepers 1, Those who talk the talk 2 Those who walk the walk and 3 rd those rare beekeepers who walk the walk and talk the talk who make a living from the products of their bees, you find them mostly doing it all wrong in the commercial section if you are lucky. New beekeepers are like new investors in the stock market, some emulate those who are successful and others the unsuccessful who can talk up a storm.
Johno


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Michael - there are two things which puzzle me whenever you make this, or a similar claim:
> 
> a) how is it you're not exporting your genetics country-wide in order to start a varroa-related beekeeping revolution ? Unless it's not a genetics issue but more of a locally-dependent phenomena, of course. And,
> 
> ...


LJ, 

a)MB does sell queens to anyone and everyone - they are on expensive side (which I totally understand), but they are availlable for sale.
b)MB also does educational camps annually and everyone is welcome to attend (after paying a fair tuition). Any researcher is welcome to come and learn (OR gather the intelligence under the guise of a "workshop student" and debunk the myths of chem-free keeping - why not just do the opposite?).
c)MB has his rights to keep some of the cards close to the chest for any reason. Only fair.
d)In general, I think I am starting to see some logical way to accomplish the chem-free way forward and that is dependent upon having the "controlling stock portfolio" in a particular locality. This means that you must control mating environment over a distinct area (large enough so to consistently withstand the pressure of imported bees and allow your preferred mating combinations to dominate the area). Simply buying 2-3 resistant nucs and sitting back on them is meaningless as they will just go diluted very quickly. One must develop strategic foot-hold and maintain it long-term (if very lucky, some feral resistance presence is already there - but not very likely for the most of us). For the most people, buying 2-3 queens from MB will do nothing, UNLESS they have a good plan of how to control their mating locale going forward and execute that plan successfully. So, I can see how selling resistant queens/bees can even *backfire *in many ways when customers will see themselves failing and complain about it (because they do not understand the mating areas control or unable to execute it).

I also think the real issue is that vast majority of those "post-grad students" are still very much into the medication-oriented research.
Not very many of the "post-grad students" are into those "politically-incorrect", "voodoo" subjects because those go against the grain (meaning - not funded through typical ways by gov/corp/USDA/any other corporate-type funding).

Anyway, not representing MB in anyway, just talking my perspective.
I might get a queen or two from MB one day as we are only one state over; will see.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

little_john said:


> Michael - there are two things which puzzle me whenever you make this, or a similar claim:
> 
> a) how is it you're not exporting your genetics country-wide in order to start a varroa-related beekeeping revolution ? Unless it's not a genetics issue but more of a locally-dependent phenomena, of course. And,
> 
> ...


:applause:
It'll be the same old same old for as long as there is no need to reinvent oneself.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>a) how is it you're not exporting your genetics country-wide in order to start a varroa-related beekeeping revolution ? Unless it's not a genetics issue but more of a locally-dependent phenomena, of course. And,

I sell queens. As many as I have time to produce. It's not really a money making proposition with the cost of equipment and the time spent, but they are available. I shipped one this morning and one last week and lot more back when the weather was still nice.

>b) why on earth don't you invite some post-grad students over to research at your apiary, in order to objectively analyse the methodology being employed ?

The "post-grad' students of the University inspect my hives every year under APHIS, find not significant amount of Varroa and show no interest in figuring out why. They would be welcome. I've offered to be involved in other bee research as well. It looks to me like as long as Monsanto, Bayer and Syngenta are funding the bee lab (which they are) that is unlikely to happen.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

GregV said:


> LJ,
> 
> a)MB does sell queens to anyone and everyone - they are on expensive side (which I totally understand), but they are availlable for sale.
> 
> So, I can see how selling resistant queens/bees can even *backfire *in many ways when customers will see themselves failing and complain about it (because they do not understand the mating areas control or unable to execute it).


:thumbsup:

Selling tf queens to beginners who don´t have the knowledge/possibility to control matings, is huge waste of resources. To avoid this, one of the most democratic/polite ways is to raise price.

Just week ago met John Kefuss, he is selling mainly unmated queens, but the mated ones cost 650 €, so mine are actually on sale...


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I can only talk about my situation, which has high density of constantly treated weak bee stock surrounding me:

Without queens from resistance breeding or queens from hobby breeders, from which one obtains survival queens, one can not start with chemical-free beekeeping, unless one has a strategy to slowly wean the bees off with fewer and fewer treatments.

Immediately after the purchase you have to start with the selection, "live and let die" works, but only accepting high losses.
You also have to optimize the beekeeping managements which mostly means not as much exploiting for honey, a more natural hive and less disturbances.

It is not necessary to control the mating,, but it is helpful. Still, the artificial inseminated queens ore pure bred queens not local are not doing better in a new location they are not adapted to. The northern ones are doing better. Often they are superseded immediately.
Even in overpopulated ( by bee colonies) surroundings, we now have bee colonies that have survived several winters without treatments and were developed by hobby breeders putting up with open mating.

Most breeders learn nothing of it, because the tf Hobbyists act in secret to not be attacked.
First of the breeders who want to keep the market, secondly by the beekeepers who treat for fear of mite bombs.

But there are breeders who support us ....morally,by mentoring or selling queens to us at a low price. My thanks to them!


> Selling tf queens to beginners who don´t have the knowledge/possibility to control matings, is huge waste of resources. To avoid this, one of the most democratic/polite ways is to raise price.
> 
> Just week ago met John Kefuss, he is selling mainly unmated queens, but the mated ones cost 650 €, so mine are actually on sale...


Not a bad idea to spread tf beekeeping.
as a breeder getting rich, as a commercial buyer feeling priviledged for having expensive queens and for the hoobyists to boost the propagation of their own local queens just to show tf works with them.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Wow what a message.
Nobody can control the market, not at least in free Europe.
I have been getting poorer ever since started breeding. Only ideological wins if anything.
Luca Consigli is selling very cheap F1 queens, and helping thousands of beekeepers for better varroa resistance with my breeding work.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Juhani Lunden said:


> I have been getting poorer ever since started breeding. Only ideological wins if anything.
> Luca Consigli is selling very cheap F1 queens, and helping thousands of beekeepers for better varroa resistance with my breeding work.


Thousands of tf beekeepers in europe? Never heard of them. Do they still treat their resistant queens´colonies?

That´s fine though if it´s done, the F1 seem to be the best. That´s what we do, purchase some good queens hopefully from colder climate and without hive beetles coming with them and breed from them, distributing the genetics among the group. 
Everyone can do that. It must not be the most expensive queens, it can be local mutt survivors too.

We don´t treat them or if we have we take them out of the program. We see no sense in treating queen´s colonies out of a resistance breeding enterprise or treat them less. Makes no sense IMHO.
Resistant queens justify the price if they are resistant without treatments only.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Every queen sent around Europe will be a step forward spreading resistant genes. 

How many packages did you buy this summer and where did they come from?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Michael Bush said:


> >... It looks to me like as long as Monsanto, Bayer and Syngenta are funding the bee lab (which they are) that is unlikely to happen.


What I have been saying.
If beekeeping does not help in chem sales - they do not care of such beekeeping. 
Chem-free beekeeping is useless to them.
In fact, chem-free beekeeping is threatening to undercut their business, then why fund it?
That simple.

So - "Do I really need to medicate?"
Not really, you don't need to medicate.

But this will mean a common backyard beekeeping prescription will not work for you.
You will complicate your life quite a bit if trying to be chem-free.

Go by your heart and call it done. 
If this means you should get out of the bees - get out of the bees.
Whatever works.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Every queen sent around Europe will be a step forward spreading resistant genes.
> 
> How many packages did you buy this summer and where did they come from?


>>> not long if treatments go on and no selection is taking place. And not every queen is resistant. 

>>> I bought 4 packages of buckfasts from a breeder who claims to breed for VSH as a trait ( not the main traits, because I can´t afford pure VSH queens) he is 200km far north. I followed the local association`s advise which was not to import bees from italy. First I wanted to follow your advise purchasing F1 daughters from your queens from italy, but I don´t want to be blamed if the SHB appears. You never did take me on my offer to test one or two queens from you getting them for free, even when we were friends in Austria you were not interested.
You wanted to test our survivor queens though, as I remember. 
I offered to feedback and journal about your queens and how they do under my circumstances. 

I thought I would have more losses so I wanted to have bee numbers but I had enough survivors in spring to rise to the same numbers of hives almost. And more if I had wanted to. So I made a mistake, I don´t need the package bees (yet?)
I plan to use part of the bees for my next breeding out of elgon survivors if I have any. 
The buckfast queens will be tested in a different location and not treated too or maybe treated and exploited for honey to feed the not treated.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> You never did take me on my offer to test one or two queens from you getting them for free,


I cannot afford sending queens for free. 
If you think about it for a minute, you soon realize, that there might be couple hundred beekeepers besides you wanting free queens.



SiWolKe said:


> You wanted to test our survivor queens though, as I remember.


Yes, I do want to buy any bee stock kept TF over longer time. In Austria I remember talking with Manuel Schüle about his black bees, 6 years without treatments. Manuel is from Switzerland and he told me that some of his friends have been even longer tf, even André Wermelinger, one of the speakers, was interested getting his stock into a study.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Juhani Lunden said:


> I cannot afford sending queens for free.
> If you think about it for a minute, you soon realize, that there might be couple hundred beekeepers besides you wanting free queens.
> 
> 
> ...


>>> you decide to whom they go. I pay the shipping.

>>> many people talk. Manuel lives near but he never showed me his hives. I don´t know if he has any or if he cares for someone else´s hives or if it is all a myth. Two years ago he said he lost all, now he says he has colonies years tf. I´ve met such people. I´ve met some who treat but claim they do not.
They have a EFB problem in switzerland which is severe, so he may be occupied.
I only believe what I see. Everybody is welcome to visit my beeyards or read my journals to believe me.

Back to topic. no, you don´t have to treat with chemicals. There are other ways to hold the mites at bay, but they are treatments too.


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## vtbeeguy (Jun 10, 2016)

Learn the basics of keeping bees before you attempt to be a "treatment free" beekeeper. Imo this "lazy beekeeping" off treatments is impossible with Varroa. It requires multiple other tactics (IPM) to keep bees treatment free. The days of leaving your hive and just popping in it to harvest honey once a year is no longer possible if it ever was.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i'll offer my standard reply this question, and that is if you can find someone successfully managing bees without medicating in your general area, then acquire your bees from them and mirror their management practices.

likewise, if you search high and low and are unable to find anyone doing this or even more if you talk to folks who have tried and failed then chances are you can expect a similar result.

siwolke is located in germany and medications are _required_ by law there. she has acquired the knowledge and understanding vtbeeguy is referring to that is necessary to do the work required to move toward a treatment free approach when located amongst a medicated only bee population comprised of varroa mite susceptible stock.

i am fortunate to be able to keep bees without medicating them and enjoy survival rates and honey production that are as good or better than what others are getting in my general area who use treatments.

since starting i have provided bees and mentorship to a handful of entry level beekeepers and most of them are also enjoying a similar success.

unfortunately our experience is more the exception than the rule for most locations, but you never know unless you get out there and ask around. it helps alot that we have a viable wild type (feral) bee population in the large expanses of wooded lands here.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Squarepeg; I suggest that you have many times the accumulated technique in the necessities and niceties of TF beekeeping compared to that of the typical person embarking upon a TF bee raising journey. I think you are discounting the value of your thousands of hours of study of bees plus a whole bunch of other parallel knowledge. 

I see all the questions asked by newbees and their problems remind me of how much material there is to absorb about the instinctive behavior of bees and their diseases, etc., and how that must all mesh with the mechanics of the equipment they are kept in in various climates. That appears to demand a very steep learning curve.

My isolation from other bees and no presence of SHB or wax moth in the area would probably allow me to keep bees alive TF but it would take a whole lot more attention to detail on my part.

I think you do a decent job of making realistic disclaimers, but some of the staunchest promoters of TF verge on the entrapment of the innocent in their portrayal of guaranteed success.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks for the kind words frank, i really appreciate that.

i wish i could claim a lot of hard work and thought went into it for me but really it was more providence than anything.

i happened into bees accidentally when a handful of hives were 'orphaned' on my property.

as it turns out those bees came with a history of medicating including a twice yearly round of antibiotics as a foulbrood preventative.

all save one of those colonies perished and the progeny of that one is still my 'go to' line for breeder queens.

after losing those i ended up purchasing a few nucs from a guy who collected bees surviving in trees back in the mid-nineties at the time when everyone else's bees started dying off from the mite invasion.

i am a clinician by trade and prescribe medications daily so i was all geared up to learn how to diagnose and treat bee maladies, but when i found out the guy i got the nucs from had never used a treatment i thought 'what the heck' so decided to let them be and see what happened.

to be honest and with everything else there was to learn and do i can't deny that parsimonious part of me was happy to not have to deal with anything else at the time. i think i got lucky and the rest i've shared here on the forum.

if memory serves me you are located far enough in the north where it is believed there are no wild type or feral bees living in the woods. if that's the case you wouldn't have the advantage of surviving colonies contributing drones like we have here.

the other thing about long cold winters seems to be that every bee counts in terms of having a strong wintering cluster. i can see how even a mild infestation could knock the colony strength back enough to make a difference.

that is almost the opposite here and i have been truly amazed at how tiny a colony can get and still make it through winter.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Aaron.koe said:


> is treating for diseases and pests something that must be done


Short answer, Yes.

Why? Because -



Aaron.koe said:


> Bought two packages.


Package bees are typically high production bees that are bred for that and are medicated, they are unlikely to last much over 12 months, if even that, if not medicated.

They are not the same bees you might get from Michael Bush, and I'll bet you are not using his management methods either.

Might sound a bit flippant, but, medicate, or die.

Not with hopguard though, it's rubbish.

Or alternatively, ask Michael Bush to send you 2 of these queens he sells. Let's know how that works out.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Aaron.koe said:


> My question is probably a dumb one, but is treating for diseases and pests something that must be done every year?


Probably not in your location. Where did you get your packages, and are you in the north/northwest part of Houston? Make a couple of walk away splits in early April to get some local urban feral genetics.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> siwolke is located in germany and medications are required by law there. she has acquired the knowledge and understanding vtbeeguy is referring to that is necessary to do the work required to move toward a treatment free approach when located amongst a medicated only bee population comprised of varroa mite susceptible stock.


thanks for the kind words, SP.

TF beekeeping under my circumstances is totally different to beekeeping normally practised, so today I realize that as tf beekeeper here it is not possible to learn from an experienced old school beekeeper but one has to develop his own strategies.
Actually, the experienced long time beekeepers learn from us a different approach, as it shows in my forum.
For that they must be open to all ideas and tries which is a psychological thing. Leave behind all arrogance and start new.

It´s more try and try again with times of high losses.

I´m still at a start and it might fail, but I see that all beekeepers here have only one topic : to be able to stop chemical treatments. Reserch goes into that direction too.

My comment to the so called "neglected " colonies: they are our future hope. 
I´m with a group which observes free living colonies which survive in spite of the worst circumstances and we want to find out why. They are the new "ferals" and might keep good genetics.

Fear of loosing control made all our ferals and feral survivor traits extinct. Now europe wants to have them back.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

To me,
old school beekeeping with it´s prophylactic, non monitoring, not bee orientated managements is lazy beekeeping.

Under my circumstances the so called "neglected" colonies are our future hope, keeping some survivor traits breeders made extinct.

240 never treated wild living survivor colonies already observed in germany can´t speak wrong.

If treatment management goes on like that in the US I promise you you will get to the point europe was some years ago. Don´t follow our example!
The mites will never go away and the bees will get weaker and weaker. Until some new pest arrives. Then the bee colonies will crash.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

> *SiWolKe:* Back to topic. no, you don´t have to treat with chemicals. There are other ways to hold the mites at bay, but they are treatments too.


Now THAT is a key statement.

Personally, I don't understand the paranoia which surrounds the use of chemicals (perhaps being an organic chemist at one point in my life is relevant ?), as we live within a chemical world ... we are ourselves (as are the bees) huge conglomerations of biological chemicals. Water, even the air we breathe, 'is/are' (or at least can be viewed as being), chemicals ...



> *vtbeeguy:* It requires multiple other tactics (IPM) to keep bees treatment free.


As Sibylle has pointed out above, IPM involves physical treatments - and so the bees are actually no better off from the adoption of such a chemical-free approach, for the Human Being firmly remains an essential component within the honeybee's survival equation.
If, however, a strain of bee could emerge (naturally, NOT by human selection) which could co-exist in some way with the Varroa mite - then I'd be one of the first in the queue to acquire and propagate such a bee.


I'd like to take this opportunity to remind people that in dosing a beehive with Vapourised Oxalic Acid (which is the only treatment I've ever used, and the only one I intent using), it is NOT the bees themselves which are being treated (as far as we know) - that is, the mites are not some kind of pathological organism interfering with the bee's biochemistry - it is the parasitic mites themselves which are being treated. 

*Any genetic adaptations which may be required to render VOA treatment ineffective must arise within the mite, and not within the bee* - that, I would suggest - confirms my claim that it is actually the mite, and not the bee, which undergoes such treatment.
LJ


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

"Any genetic adaptations which may be required to render VOA treatment ineffective must arise within the mite, and not within the bee - that, I would suggest - confirms my claim that it is actually the mite, and not the bee, which undergoes such treatment.
LJ " 

Yes; treat the problem not the symptom. Dont mess with the bees genetics trying to make them resistant to what could be a relatively temporary problem! Much better to mess with the mites genetics! We do not know what or how soon the next pest of the bees will be. shall we then attempt to modify the bees again! That seems to lack some logic.

I think that fortunately the bees are very proficient at throwing off such short term and mindless attacks on their genetics. JWChestnut has often spoken of their strong tendency to revert to the norm. Anyone who has tried to permanently fix a trait in bees could tell you how resistant they are to any mutation.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

crofter said:


> "Any genetic adaptations which may be required to render VOA treatment ineffective must arise within the mite, and not within the bee - that, I would suggest - confirms my claim that it is actually the mite, and not the bee, which undergoes such treatment.
> LJ "
> 
> Yes; treat the problem not the symptom. Dont mess with the bees genetics trying to make them resistant to what could be a relatively temporary problem! Much better to mess with the mites genetics! We do not know what or how soon the next pest of the bees will be. shall we then attempt to modify the bees again! That seems to lack some logic.
> ...


Where I live there is a significant population of feral bees. Those bees exert an ever changing gravitational pull on the gene pool bending it toward genetic traits that favor surviveability. Some of those traits that favor surviveabilty are desirable for me; some are not. The local managed bees, including those managed by me, also exert a force on the gene pool. Some of the traits that result from the influence of those managed bees are desirable to me; others are not. Once in a great while I have to pinch a queen. More often, nature culls her for me. The norm to which the bees revert changes over time due to such things as invasive species, new diseases, changes in cultivation practices, and other changes affecting the bees’ environment.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

You forget the microorganisms. I believe them playing a big part with bee health. So, as it is the truth that brood culling is a treatment too, it´s not a treatment having any influence on the symbiotic behaviours developing between mite and bee.

These are influenced by any chemical treatment, by oils, by acids, by hive climate , by disruptions.

It´s a wonderful topic for hobbyist reseach and my group started a mind mapping thread in my forum to improve beekeeping as much as possible.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Funny, I was always thinking a flow hive the peak of exploitation and lazyness, but not anymore. 
Leave the brood chamber alone, harvest the honey, weigh and feed if need arises and here we are. Maybe just what the bees need.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

SiWolKe said:


> ... the symbiotic behaviours developing between mite and bee.


Symbiosis is a term usually employed to describe a relationship which is mutually beneficial to both organisms. How does the presence or behaviour of the Varroa mite ever benefit the Honey-Bee ?
LJ


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

." 

Sybllle: a snip from your post> "My comment to the so called "neglected " colonies: they are our future hope.
I´m with a group which observes free living colonies which survive in spite of the worst circumstances and we want to find out why. They are the new "ferals" and might keep good genetics."

From what I gather the ferals which move towards survival tend to bring out their inherent traits of smaller colonies, frequent swarming, defensive behaviour and much less honey production than our most common commercial stocks. I think that the majority of people would not thank you for your efforts to reduce the need to treat for mites if that is to be the new norm!

I suggest that a better situation mite develop if the same effort were put into manipulating the varroa genetics but that seems not to have the same emotional appeal as so called _bee improving_. I would be far more likely to make contributions to some entity that was engaged in mite genetic research. Mites are the problem.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Aaron.koe said:


> This is my first year bee keeping. So far I would say pretty successful. Bought two packages in late May. One hive has filled both deeps and working on two supers. Other hive has finally filled the first deep. Pretty good for a late start and no comb to start with.
> 
> I try not to bother them too much. Every time I open the hive I feel like I kill so many from the busy hive I feel bad about it. How do you set a 100 pound deep box down on a flood of bees pouring out everywhere.
> 
> ...


Hi Aaron, when you remove a box set it on its side, or caddi- corner on the upside down outer cover (after smoking them of course)

Yes, you should monitor your varroa levels and treat them if a high sugar rol or alcohol wash. ½ cup of bees you should treat if you have 5 or more varroa ( see some utubes on that)

Make it a goal to have a sustainable apiary, no more buying bees. See Michael Palmer’s utube video for that; actually anything by him is excellent, in addition to Randy Oliver’s site Scientific Beekeeping

And lastly, enjoy your new hobby and learn as much as you can! Deb


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

crofter said:


> ."
> 
> Sybllle: a snip from your post> "My comment to the so called "neglected " colonies: they are our future hope.
> I´m with a group which observes free living colonies which survive in spite of the worst circumstances and we want to find out why. They are the new "ferals" and might keep good genetics."
> ...


Funny thing is, the ferals which are observed in an area near me by scientists, they are not what you claim they become. They are escaped domesticated bees and they live there for some years. They are not more defensive, they are not more swarmy, about the honey stores I don´t know. IMHO the stores and harvest mirror the flow situation and are a result of artificial feeding, propagating strengh of colony.
Why not use their survivor traits in breeding attempts?
And funny thing is, I quoted the scientific reserch group of Jürgen Tautz which observes the ferals. They seem to think the same as I and no beekeepers seem to have a problem with this, at least I see no protesting in the bee journal articles.



> Symbiosis is a term usually employed to describe a relationship which is mutually beneficial to both organisms. How does the presence or behaviour of the Varroa mite ever benefit the Honey-Bee ?
> LJ


There are no communities without parasites.
But with the treatments and the unnatural husbandry we disturb the communities.
The book scorpion chelifer cancroides, for example, probably lives with the honey bees in community since the beginning of time, it feeds on the parasites of the bees and was always present until the long-term treatments began and the mobile frame hives were introduced.
The symbiosis takes place over these communities and builds up again and again on new parasites, which takes many generations.

https://chelifer.de/buecherskorpione/


It is not very clear and tested how the artificial chemicals and management affect the bee colony.
Bees make their own antibiotics, propolis, it is not welcome in the hives.
Bees eat fungi, honey and other organisms that they need for intestinal hygiene, beekeepers methods of hygiene and medicines kills the helpful life.
The honey is harvested and replaced with artificial food, also frightening is that this artificial food for the bees is healthier today than their natural diet through agriculture with their sprays.

Bees communicate via fragrances and pheromones, which are strongly influenced by essential oils and are disturbed for hours or even days with every hive check or change of hive configuration.

So what if this is the key to tf beekeeping? It is never tested over years with many colonies except with the feral hives in isolated areas which developed into resistant bee stock being left on their own.



> Naturally nesting colonies stay smaller, rear less brood and swarm frequently, all of which reduces the reproductive potential of Varroa mites. Beekeepers, however, usually prevent swarming and provide unnaturally spacious hives, resulting in large colonies with continuous brood rearing activity


So beekeeping management or trait? I read herer about swarm prevention menagement all the time so swarm urge is present in domesticated colonies too.


> Although feral honey bee colonies can be a rich source for studying the natural interaction of honey bees with the forest environment (Seeley, 1985) and they can represent an important reservoir of genetic diversity


https://peerj.com/articles/4602/


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Hi Sibylle,
I know absolutely nothing about book scorpions, so looked them up on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscorpion) - this is the opening paragraph:



> Pseudoscorpions are generally beneficial to humans since they prey on clothes moth larvae, carpet beetle larvae, booklice, ants, mites, and small flies. They are tiny and inoffensive, and are rarely seen due to their small size, despite being common in many environments. Pseudoscorpions often carry out phoresy, a form of commensalism in which one organism uses another for the purpose of transport.


Immediately one reads about beneficial behaviour towards one or other organisms - and as you say yourself, this organism is known to feed on bee parasites - so yes, I'd accept that there's evidence of symbiosis here. (Are you suggesting that book scorpions are an effective remedy for the problem of the Varroa mite ?) 
But where one has an aggressor and a victim, I don't think it's quite so reasonable to be applying the same term 'symbiotic behaviour'.

Parasitism leading to serious injury or death of the host is - to my mind - in a much different category. Should we humans not be relieving ourselves (by whatever means necessary) of our own parasites: tape-worms, round-worms, and worms such as Onchocerca Volvulus which causes blindness ?

The history of medicine is one of the elimination of these and similar organisms, to make our lives as healthy as possible. Of course such organisms are not completely eliminated from the face of the Earth, but enough of them are to make our lives bearable. Would you really want to go back to a life before modern medicine ?

And - if we ourselves are so ready and willing to seek medical assistance with regard to our own diseases and parasites - ought we not to extend a similar courtesy to the animals under our care ?

Is it not bordering on hypocrisy to be subjecting animals to a 'Live and Let Die' method of husbandry, whilst not being prepared to live by that same protocol ourselves ?
LJ


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Hi LJ


> (Are you suggesting that book scorpions are an effective remedy for the problem of the Varroa mite ?)
> But where one has an aggressor and a victim, I don't think it's quite so reasonable to be applying the same term 'symbiotic behaviour'.


Not really but the scorpion hold the mites at bay a little bit. They are bred and sold here but need some time to develop numbers and they need a habitat to breed which must be added to your hive configuration.
You need many scorpions because they do not eat only mites.
Well yes, you got me, it´s probably not the right term. But who knows what will be found when more information is provided about the mites. One symbiotic behaviour might be the mites make extinct the weak genetics, which is rather an advantage.



> Is it not bordering on hypocrisy to be subjecting animals to a 'Live and Let Die' method of husbandry, whilst not being prepared to live by that same protocol ourselves ?


As I recall the beekeeping industry hoped to get rid of the mites in the beginning but never suceeded.
believe me, if some method is found which will make the mites go away forever contrary to making it more strong and virulent I will follow and treat. So far no hope.

With humans,
those pests and diseases which once and again are considered extinct suddenly pop up again and so far there is no remedy to many diseases. Today´s medicine makes it easier to bear disease and makes you live longer despite sickness. That´s good and may be compared with bee treatments. But then why more and more treatments on bees?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Symbiosis is a term usually employed to describe a relationship which is mutually beneficial to both organisms. How does the presence or behaviour of the Varroa mite ever benefit the Honey-Bee ?
> LJ


According to Google:



> What are the types of symbiotic relationships?
> *There are 3 types of symbiosis:*
> 
> Parasitism: parasite benefits, host is hurt. ...
> ...


This brings up this question:
- Is "parasite of your parasite" is your friend? Maybe yes.
- Do we promote the "parasites of our parasites" or we are actually killing them off with our blind attempts to "fix things"? Maybe yes, maybe no. No idea if anyone ever checked.
- What about "the parasites of the parasites of the parasites"? Should I continue? 

So, when doing the sledge-hammer approach of "fixing things" via some convenient chem. treatments do we have any slightest idea what the heck are we doing?
Maybe No.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Speaking of the human and livestock worms...

Of course, the worms have been developing resistance to drugs as well (these are macro-parasites and similar to varroa in that; not microscopic and not quickly adapting bacteria/virus, to be sure).
Chemical sledgehammer approaches also stop working, only as expected.
So the same - quick chem fixes turn into breeding operation for the chem-resistant worms. 
Now, this may turn out quite ugly. 

Many googles links this one:


> After many years of use of these same drugs for controlling roundworms in livestock, high levels of resistance have developed, threatening the sustainability of these livestock industries in some locations.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3913213/


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

A rotation with different classes of worm treatments is standard practice and quite handily prevents the development of resistance. Resistance to a particular one is quite quickly dropped. The same appears to be true of most of the varroa treatments.

The statement would be true in theory but it is misleading in any kind of informed useage. Scare tactics!

As for the book scorpions idea it is mostly hogwash. They are expensive, not very effective, and if you look into what is required to propagate them you will find they are more complicated to rear than bees are. A neighboring beekeeper to my son invested time and money into that idea and that was a short lived idea! That puts money in the pocket of the promoters!


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

crofter said:


> As for the book scorpions idea it is mostly hogwash. They are expensive, not very effective, and if you look into what is required to propagate them you will find they are more complicated to rear than bees are. A neighboring beekeeper to my son invested time and money into that idea and that was a short lived idea! That puts money in the pocket of the promoters!


You need no money because the scorpions are to be found in dry barns and will enter beehives on their own if those are not treated and not kept hygienic. The adult scorpions are not killed by OA but by FA, the young are killed by OA too because they feed from microorganisms which are not present if you treat with OA. All new research here.

And I agree the scorpion is not the golden nugget. Don´t forget the genetics of the surviving bee stock. 

I had seen a scorpion running on my hive 2014 and I found a nest in an old metal bin filled with bark I use in my garden to propagate small insects.

But the nymphs need a long time to become adults, 2 years as I remember and to keep the scorpions satisfied you need nesting places inside the hive. So the propagating of microorganisms and helpful insects is for people only who really care for hive configurations following nature. In former times the scorpions lived in the straw and clay skeps which provided good nesting places.

Fact is: the mites will not go away and when a new pest comes the bees still are not resistant to an old one.
Fact is: there are commercial beekeepers working tf and sucessful
Fact is: there is the soft bond approach which makes tf beekeeping a future possibility and avoids too many losses but treaters and treatment free beeks both fear the work of monitoring.

And fact is: the honey taken from treatment free bees is the sweetest of all, the honey taken from varroa deadouts is the most bitter.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

SiWolKe said:


> You need no money because the scorpions are to be found in dry barns and will enter beehives on their own if those are not treated and not kept hygienic. The adult scorpions are not killed by OA but by FA, the young are killed by OA too because they feed from microorganisms which are not present if you treat with OA. All new research here.
> 
> And I agree the scorpion is not the golden nugget. Don´t forget the genetics of the surviving bee stock.
> 
> ...



Yes the rearing of them in sufficient numbers becomes a whole other study. I wonder how the special places in the hive for the scorpions will work in with small hive beetle control?

Were you not once very enamored with the ultrasonic mite killer?

I see things stated here as fact that would have a hard time standing up to any degree of scrutiny!


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

crofter said:


> Yes the rearing of them in sufficient numbers becomes a whole other study. I wonder how the special places in the hive for the scorpions will work in with small hive beetle control?
> 
> Were you not once very enamored with the ultrasonic mite killer?
> 
> I see things stated here as fact that would have a hard time standing up to any degree of scrutiny!


>>> the special places must be controlled by the bees. They are good hiding places for the SHB I fear. The scorpion eats wax moth larva and hive beetles too as I´m told. We have no experience with hive beetles and that´s one of my goals too to propagate mite biting because I believe it will help with the beetle. Propolis collecting traits might be of help too when bees start to cover parasites.

>>> I was not enarmored with the ultrasonic unit, I was ( and I am still) interested in non chemical treatments. Our bees are not mite resistant yet and need some years to be regressed. 
The unit works somehow but is not practical. It must be used all the time and you can´t leave on the honey boxes while treating. Otherwise it would have been a fine IPM method.
But nobody tested on the beneficial organisms which might be disturbed and killed by the unit. 

This fall I treated one colony with thymol. I will not do it again, it´s just something which I don´t feel comfortable with. I saw the bees desperately trying to propolise the pads which means they want to get rid of them.
To me brood culling is a better way. Sugar shakes too but it was too late in year to do that. I still have to improve many managements and learn much more.

>>>coming to things stated here: I see that you follow some of my doings, thank you for the attention. I see many trying or being interested in tf beekeeping or they would not tell of their failures. Why did they try if they believe it an absurdity and not an attraction? Every beekeeper has a location where he might make some experimental tries to propagate more resistant genetics without jeopardizing income if he lives of the bees.

I love to watch the videos of Sam Comfort or other tf beekeepers. They are so much more relaxed and happy. My co-workers who still treat tell me all the time they want to keep bees like they did before varroa was set free. I don´t know about that time but it seems to me they were very content with beekeeping then, as they are not with today`s constant struggle against mite infestations.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Sibylle, will it help that I don’t clean off bottom boards. Can these beneficent guardian predators live in a Langstroth if they are not molested?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't see a lot of them, but I see them from time to time. I saw a pseudo scorpion in a hive again a week ago.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Riverderwent said:


> Sibylle, will it help that I don’t clean off bottom boards. Can these beneficent guardian predators live in a Langstroth if they are not molested?


https://beenature-project.com/epage...c-00453bab9a49.sf/de_DE/beenature-project.com

They need rough interior walls and follower boards filled with dry wood/bark chips
They can not live in Styrofoam, as they are guided by electrostatics
They have to be able to move from the walls to the honeycomb
You need a climate ventilation lid otherwise the hive interior is too wet
You must not toss the honeycombs
The bottom boards are too wet and cold

Be welcome to pm me for more information.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> I don't see a lot of them, but I see them from time to time. I saw a pseudo scorpion in a hive again a week ago.


Here a picture of the one I saw on my hive wall, sorry, I was kind of shaking with excitement....while taking it.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Thank you, Sibylle.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is a wall design I am testing - I mean it to be full of ants, scorpions, fungus, mold, whatever.
Moth? Fine, whatever.

Idea is not mine; there is a good blog from Denmark, I believe, where I got the idea.
1/2 mesh and packed wood shavings.
The wall is passable by the bees. 
The bees can crawl inside as well.
Up to them to do whatever the heck they want with these walls. 
May propolise it if they want.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

We avoid metal as much as possible in the hives.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I´m thinking about using thin mats of hemp or straw to glue to the interiour wall sides and cover this with clay but not completely so to have nesting places for useful insects, but one has to be aware of the SHB when it appears.
The bees need to have access to all parts of the hive and easy access it must be. They must be able to propolise whole areas if they want to and the metal mesh walls are not easy to control for them.
They are good against wetness though.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is the original source: https://chelifer.de/tree-hive/
He is using metal mesh and so far no comments that I could find (bad or good).
I am just testing the idea and we'll see.
Applied melted old wax to the mesh walls as a sort of cement to hold the shavings inside.
Just some, not too much.
In round one of this testing the bees were trying to pull the smaller shavings and toss them out - hence some "cement" added.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I saw a couple in my hives this weekend and I see them fairly regularly. Not in any large numbers. Just scurrying across an inner cover or frame top bar.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

GregV said:


> Here is a wall design I am testing - I mean it to be full of ants, scorpions, fungus, mold, whatever.
> Moth? Fine, whatever.
> 
> I would be interested to see how that would work if at all here. We have such a long summer and significant amounts of propolis I doubt it would stay open for a season. I also am not sure how these mite eating bugs are going to be able to do anything when my hives are literally killing lizards, mice, wasp, and carpenter bees left and right.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> GregV said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a wall design I am testing - I mean it to be full of ants, scorpions, fungus, mold, whatever.
> ...


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> I would be interested to see how that would work if at all here. We have such a long summer and significant amounts of propolis I doubt it would stay open for a season. I also am not sure how these mite eating bugs are going to be able to do anything when my hives are literally killing lizards, mice, wasp, and carpenter bees left and right.



I might be too dumb to distinguish between friend and foe ( msl, I think it is a language problem, I´m sorry) but do you really think the bees are so dumb they cannot distinguish between them?
No.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV said:


> > Originally Posted by little_john
> > Symbiosis is a term usually employed to describe a relationship which is mutually beneficial to both organisms. How does the presence or behaviour of the Varroa mite ever benefit the Honey-Bee ?
> > LJ
> 
> ...


One of the most common misunderstandings in life is that "words have meanings" - as if a word somehow 'owns' it's meaning. It's far more accurate to say that "meanings have (or are assigned) words" - although I'd be the first to agree that this does seem a somewhat awkward idea at first ...

This situation has come about because we are born into a world where languages have already been firmly established, and it's up to each one of us to learn the usual relationship held between a word and it's accepted meaning or meanings (plural) - because some words have indeed developed multiple meanings. This is the result of there being far more meanings to be communicated than there are words in the English lexicon - hence the multiple meanings listed within dictionaries for many individual words. 

So which of these is best described as the word's 'true' meaning ? Well, one useful way of discovering this is to examine the etymology of the word in order to discover the original meaning which was responsible for that word's genesis.

So - for 'symbiosis', we find:


> *symbiosis (n.)*
> 
> 1876, as a biological term, "union for life of two different organisms based on mutually benefit," from Greek symbiosis "a living together," from symbioun "live together," from symbios "(one) living together (with another), partner, companion, husband or wife," from assimilated form of syn- "together" (see syn-) + bios "life" (from PIE root *gwei- "to live"). Given a wider (non-biological) sense by 1921. An earlier sense of "communal or social life" is found in 1620s. A back-formed verb symbiose is recorded from 1960.
> *https://www.etymonline.com/word/symbiosis*


There are of course many other etymological sources one can consult, but the same word keeps appearing time and time again: "live" or "living". So - even if parasitism should be included in one's understanding of symbiosis, it must be a form of parasitism which allows both organisms to live - even if one disregards the 'mutual benefit' aspect of that relationship.

But the consequence of a Varroa mite infestation is invariably death - not life - and so the relationship between the Varroa mite and the European Honey-Bee is NOT about 'living together' at all - it is a relationship of aggressor and victim, and thus cannot reasonably be described as one of symbiosis.
LJ


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

little_john said:


> But the consequence of a Varroa mite infestation is invariably death - not life - and so the relationship between the Varroa mite and the European Honey-Bee is NOT about 'living together' at all - it is a relationship of aggressor and victim, and thus cannot reasonably be described as one of symbiosis.
> LJ


:lpf: Sorry LJ. 

Ask a tf beekeeper like Kirk Webster, Sam Comfort, Michael Bush, David Heaf!

Tell me did we ever let the bees and their parasites try this out?

And you, you having the priviledge to have those tf beekeepers near you, visit and ask them!


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

SiWolKe said:


> I might be too dumb to distinguish between friend and foe ( msl, I think it is a language problem, I´m sorry) but do you really think the bees are so dumb they cannot distinguish between them?
> No.


I could not disagree more. If it is foreign in a hive it is getting the axe if it can be caught. Watching any colony of honeybees that is fairly basic. While all these theories sound nice they are not grounded on facts. I am all for experimentation but lets not get ahead of ourselves like we have with screened bottom boards, fungus that will kill mites and save the bees, essential oils, lithium salts, breeding only from the survivors to name a few. 

One thing I do know for a fact is that the further I have gotten away from TF the healthier and more prosperous my bees have become. It only makes sense that bees would have ailments just like livestock, humans, and everything else. Sure we should select for the best,but again, bees are a biological robot they are not going to permit something into the hive if they can help it.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

SiWolKe, do you see everyone as a friend or a foe? Most of us are just people, talking.

Over here in NZ, when I do alcohol washes i quite often find pseudoscorpions, which is interesting because the wash is a bee sample so the pseudoscorpions must have been on the actual bees. So I brought this up on our local chat site, and a bunch of people got interested and did the pseudoscorpion thing big time. Over here pseudoscorpions can be bought in 1 Litre packs.


So guys got busy preparing their hives, along the lines of what has been talked about here. Also, some people thought that a hive that has been treated might not be a good environment for the pseudoscorpions, so brand new hives were made, treatment free, and stocked with bees, especially for the pseudoscorpions.

In the end, after quite a period of time, the psuedoscorpions just didn't work.


I am not sure what the pseudoscorpions in my hives eat. I have seen a photo taken in a petri dish, of a pseudoscorpion attacking and eating a varroa mite. Wether this happens in a hive I do not know. But if it does, the issue would be that it would be like any other predator prey relationship. The predator needs a stable prey population. In other words, to survive, the pseudoscorpions would come to some kind of balance between their population, and the mite population. Or, if they wipe out the mites, they would then exterminate themselves.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

One day, in the not too distant future, I hope I will no longer need to do so.
If others have achieved this, then I do not see why I cant.
Bottom line is...If you never try, you never will.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Any proposition requires a cost / benefit analysis. We all do it one way or another, usually without really putting a name to the action. We all have our own weighting factors.

I certainly am running out of time to _try everything_. We all are! One of my fathers sayings was "Learn from others mistakes; we dont live long enough to make them all ourselves!"

When a person appears to have, as a main driving force, the need to feel special, rather than a discernible objectivity, then I dont assign a lot of weight to their mental meanderings. Demonstrating a strong missionary zeal but an obvious confirmation bias is not conducive to good science. I would hate to see such people be given the keys to genetic engineering!

In the mean time Varroa mites need to be managed the same as many other livestock issues such as worms, pink eye, selenium deficiency, brainworm etc. We cannot afford to genetically engineer away every such individual inconvenience to man!


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## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

In the US there used to be human blow flies. They would lay their larvae on humans and they would burrow in and feed on the flesh. A program was developed to produce billions of sterile male flies. These were released and overwhelmed the fertile males leading to a crash in their population. Human 
blow flies have now been eliminated in the US. 

Something along those lines might be useful with mites. Since varroa mites life cycle is much different it would need to be different but perhaps breeding a mass of "milder" mites and releasing them into hives to overwhelm the bad mite genetics.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

jonsl said:


> In the US there used to be human blow flies. They would lay their larvae on humans and they would burrow in and feed on the flesh.


That's interesting didn't know about that. Were they bot flies by any chance?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23eimVLAQ2c


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## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

Different genus and species but same idea. There are a number of species around the world that have a similar life history and have different host species. I think the human blow fly is still present in Central America (or maybe a related species). This is also called the New World primary screwworm.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Very interesting Jonsl!



mischief said:


> If others have achieved this, then I do not see why I cant.


The bees, and the mites, do not care what your beliefs and expectations are, they do what they do regardless.


There are reasons why you can't. The situation your bees are in is different to the others you refer to who are treatment free. They run multiple hives plus are surrounded by similar bees, and are in locations that give a suitable environment. 

With your one hive, surrounded by hives that have to be medicated, you are not able to breed a bee that will survive treatment free. You will medicate again, and regularly, or, you will lose your bees.

I would also suggest having a look at some other hives, just so you can see what a healthy hive is. Not being too harsh, but recently when your hive was close to death, you thought it was doing fine. Some experience with others will be helpful so you know what you are looking at.


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## Diptera (Nov 10, 2016)

jonsl said:


> In the US there used to be human blow flies. They would lay their larvae on humans and they would burrow in and feed on the flesh. A program was developed to produce billions of sterile male flies. These were released and overwhelmed the fertile males leading to a crash in their population. Human
> blow flies have now been eliminated in the US.
> 
> 
> Something along those lines might be useful with mites. Since varroa mites life cycle is much different it would need to be different but perhaps breeding a mass of "milder" mites and releasing them into hives to overwhelm the bad mite genetics.


There are no "human blowflies." You are referring to primary screw worm, which infects cattle mainly, and can get to humans, but rarely. There is the human bot fly.
The screw worm did have a sterile male release program to knock the numbers down but they have not been eliminated. Total elimination is nearly impossible unless on a worldwide scale. 

Even bot flies do not lay their eggs directly on humans. The female catches a mosquito, lays her eggs on the underside of the female mosquito abdomen, then when the mosquito feeds on a person, the bot fly egg hatches and burrows into the person. Evolution is a strange and amazing thing. 

There is maggot therapy first developed during WW2 that used bot fly larvae to eat the diseased and dead flesh around wounds, but the larvae only eat dead flesh and not living flesh. They also produce a natural antibiotic that woul help the wound not get infected. 

Yes, i am a Dipterist, literally.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't think they used bot fly maggots to clean wounds, as bot fly maggots tunnel into living flesh. It was normal fly larvae that were used.

Years ago I actually knew someone who did this, I lived in a remote (by NZ standards) part of our country where there used to be old hermits and various eccentric type people living often in tumble down shacks. Some of these guys rarely ventured into a town, or far from where they lived. One of these guys had an accident which got badly infected. He got some maggots and applied them, and they did indeed clean up the wound. He described to me how he watched new skin start to grow in from the egde and the maggots allowed it and didn't eat it. I do not know what the species was, I don't think he probably did either.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

The use of maggots to clean wounds goes back to at least the Napoleonic Wars, maybe well before then. Dunno what species of fly they used - whatever was locally available at the time they were needed, I guess.
They also used honey to promote the healing of the cleaned wounds - a technique which goes way back to the Mayans and ancient Egyptians. Napoleonic field surgeons also treated burns using honey mixed with lead acetate (which was maybe not such a good idea ...), but then that was a time when mercury-based ointments were being used to treat syphilis. Not exactly "the good old days" ... 
LJ


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## Diptera (Nov 10, 2016)

Oldtimer said:


> I don't think they used bot fly maggots to clean wounds, as bot fly maggots tunnel into living flesh. It was normal fly larvae that were used.
> 
> Years ago I actually knew someone who did this, I lived in a remote (by NZ standards) part of our country where there used to be old hermits and various eccentric type people living often in tumble down shacks. Some of these guys rarely ventured into a town, or far from where they lived. One of these guys had an accident which got badly infected. He got some maggots and applied them, and they did indeed clean up the wound. He described to me how he watched new skin start to grow in from the egde and the maggots allowed it and didn't eat it. I do not know what the species was, I don't think he probably did either.


Sorry for the confusion. You are correct that it is not bot flies for maggot therapy. 

I was referring again to blow fly larvae being used in the therapy. Not screw worms though.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Maggot therapy

https://www.youtube.com/v/uEkzx5Xul2M


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> Very interesting Jonsl!
> 
> The bees, and the mites, do not care what your beliefs and expectations are, they do what they do regardless.
> 
> ...


Why do you say that? Because you tried once and failed? Let him make his own experience. If he fails like you did he still will learn many things about bees which will make him a great beekeeper. Everybody is with him if he decides to treat again.
Perhaps in a few years he will sell queens to you.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Why do I say it? Cos it's the facts. This is not Germany, or Nebraska, it's New Zealand. And, I'm just the messenger.

Maybe one day SHE will sell queens to me, maybe never. If she does, I would be happy with that, and for her.

I wish her the best, but she is only just starting to learn the reality. Part way there, but more to go.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> Why do I say it? Cos it's the facts. This is not Germany, or Nebraska, it's New Zealand. And, I'm just the messenger.
> 
> Maybe one day SHE will sell queens to me, maybe never. If she does, I would be happy with that, and for her.
> 
> I wish her the best, but she is only just starting to learn the reality. Part way there, but more to go.


She? Hi, welcome in a world of machos  
Germany? :lpf: It´s not personal, OT, but is there a situation worse than Germany?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

SiWolKe said:


> Why do you say that? Because you tried once and failed?


No it's not that. 

Firstly, My "tried once" was a 2 year trial using many beehives, small cell treatment free wax foundation, queens showing resistance that I brought in from all over NZ, and much more. I probably did more, with more bees, in that 2 years, than you have ever done the whole time you have had bees SiWolKe. To say I "tried once", belittles the extensive work I did, and is borderline dishonest.

But, that's not all. I am also drawing on the experience of the many other people who have tried, Mischief included. None of them have been successful, it doesn't work over here. There are reasons for this but I'm not writing 2 pages explaining it all, it has been said before and I'm pretty sure you have read it.



SiWolKe said:


> Let him make his own experience.


Of course, and she IS making her own experience. Her experience so far is that her bees have to be treated. Her hive has treatment in it right now, to try to save it from death. It was neglected and very sick, but if this treatment was not too late and the hive survives, it will have to be treated again in the future as well. Mischief will learn that, but it takes time. None of that is my fault so no need to take shots at me. It's just the facts.

There are not many people more convinced and trying harder than Mischief, and she failed. That's how it is.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> This is not Germany, or Nebraska,


Tears run down my face to this comparison. :lpf:
Thanks OT, you made my evening.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> No it's not that. Firstly, My "tried once" was a 2 year trial using many beehives, small cell treatment free wax foundation, queens showing resistance that I brought in from all over NZ, and much more. I probably did more, with more bees, in that 2 years, than you have ever done the whole time you have had bees SiWolKe. To say I "tried once", does not do justice to what I did, and is borferline dishonest.
> 
> But, that's not all. I am also drawing on the experience of the many other people who have tried. None of them have been or are successful, it doesn't work over here. There are reasons for this but I'm not writting 2 pages explaining it all, it has been said before and I'm pretty sure you have read it.
> 
> Of course, and she IS making her own experience. Her experience so far is that her bees have to be treated. Her hive has treatment in it right now, to try to save it from death. It was neglected and very sick, but if this treatment was not too late and the hive survives, it will have to be treated again in the future. None of that is my fault so no need to take shots at me. It's just the facts.


OT, I can´t understand why people like you, having such experience, don´t try soft bond parallel to treated hives.

Yes SHE had to treat, which shows SHE cares. Still SHE is interested, which shows SHE knows. I hope I will have co-workers like HER some time in future.
The co-worker I had given my "resistant" queen´s daughters splits for free did not care and he let them die of starvation.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

SiWolKe said:


> OT, I can´t understand why people like you, having such experience, don´t try soft bond parallel to treated hives.


Is your problem that you just want to divide everyone into good and bad, I am bad, so you make judgements about me?

Reality is I have been doing soft bond for years, and still am now. But it's a much bigger story than just that, but as I said I'm not wasting my time explaining it all here. Cos end of day, people believe what they want to believe, regardless of the reality. What people on the internet think does not affect me, or what I'm doing. I sometimes offer advice out of kindness. I have stopped caring if people thank me for it, or get angry. That's not my problem, it's theirs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

:thumbsup:

Hey Oldtimer. How ya been. What you said is one reason I stopped Posting.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Missed you dude.

I put up with these closed minded people, because end of day, the world is full of them. They make their own mistakes, and they suffer the costs, not me. 

You should get back here Sqkcrk, I used to enjoy your down to earth posts.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Missed you dude.
> 
> I put up with these closed minded people, because end of day, the world is full of them. They make their own mistakes, and they suffer the costs, not me.
> 
> You should get back here Sqkcrk, I used to enjoy your down to earth posts.


:thumbsup:


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> There are reasons why you can't. The situation your bees are in is different to the others you refer to who are treatment free. They run multiple hives plus are surrounded by similar bees, and are in locations that give a suitable environment.
> 
> With your one hive, surrounded by hives that have to be medicated, you are not able to breed a bee that will survive treatment free. You will medicate again, and regularly, or, you will lose your bees.


I'd say that's a very fair and realistic summary of the situation which faces any wannabee TF beekeeper, unless they happen to live in an isolated area and have LOTS of colonies with which to start off with (to accommodate the inevitable losses).

At the risk of stating the obvious - beekeeping is quite unlike any other form of animal husbandry, in that the actions of neighbours will always directly impinge upon the health, welfare and genetics of your own livestock - that is, unless you happen to live in an isolated area.
LJ


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> Is your problem that you just want to divide everyone into good and bad, I am bad, so you make judgements about me?
> 
> Reality is I have been doing soft bond for years, and still am now. But it's a much bigger story than just that, but as I said I'm not wasting my time explaining it all here. Cos end of day, people believe what they want to believe, regardless of the reality. What people on the internet think does not affect me, or what I'm doing. I sometimes offer advice out of kindness. I have stopped caring if people thank me for it, or get angry. That's not my problem, it's theirs.


I´m not making judgements about you or if I do it´s just an answer to your judgements about me or others. I respected you no matter tf or not. You know that.
Soft bond? That´s new to me. I thought you tried the Dee Lusby way but failed and had no good words left of that time. But I did not read all your posts. The recent ones are not very inspiring, they rather mirror an autocratic view.
It´s sad that good mentors like you give up so easiy and feel offended by different opinions.

Well, that said, the continents and nations seem to drift apart just like people seem to drift apart and living in their own echo chambers.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

little_john said:


> I'd say that's a very fair and realistic summary of the situation which faces any wannabee TF beekeeper, unless they happen to live in an isolated area and have LOTS of colonies with which to start off with (to accommodate the inevitable losses).
> 
> At the risk of stating the obvious - beekeeping is quite unlike any other form of animal husbandry, in that the actions of neighbours will always directly impinge upon the health, welfare and genetics of your own livestock - that is, unless you happen to live in an isolated area.
> LJ


No.
I don´t agree. Nobody tried and those who tried and have success are not present on BS.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

SiWolKe said:


> No.
> I don´t agree. Nobody tried and those who tried and have success are not present on BS.


Oh god, I forgot squarepeg who is the most important example to me. He is present on BS.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

SiWolKe said:


> It´s sad that good mentors like you give up so easiy and feel offended by different opinions.


Rubbish.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> Rubbish.


Do you mean you don´t feel a good mentor or if it comes to tf beekeeping? Probably if it comes to non commercial tf beekeeping ( SP an exception perhaps) You´re not the only one who does not care about tf hobbyists. Juhani for one is also.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

No, none of that. 

It was calling a judgemental statement for what it is.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Oldtimer you must have the patience of Job
Johno


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Missed you dude.
> 
> I put up with these closed minded people, because end of day, the world is full of them. They make their own mistakes, and they suffer the costs, not me.
> 
> You should get back here Sqkcrk, I used to enjoy your down to earth posts.




I lost interest. My head is only so hard. lol


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

sqkcrk said:


> I lost interest. My head is only so hard. lol


My head is only so hard also. I still feel for the newbees trying to sift through so much conflicting info.

The timeline, symptoms and signs of my decision to not treat were just as described by OT, sqkcrk and others. I didn't want it to be true, but there they were, mites, lots of mites in the Drone brood. One dying hive and two sick ones. That was back in 2015. Your efforts don't always fall on deaf ears. To paraphrase what President Reagan once said, "Listen, but verify."

I am hard headed and stubborn, but not so delusional that I refuse to believe my own eyes or to discount what others stated, especially when it aligns perfectly with what I was seeing.

I applaud the efforts of the people who are trying to breed TF stock and I hope they are successful enough to one day sell breeder Queens whose progeny can thrive outside the area from where they were raised. What price would someone pay for such a creature? How much more would someone pay if she came with a guarantee? 

Buyer beware when purchasing TF stock. I have noticed a lot of questionable marketing of TF Queens. The Queen rearing portion of the operations can be referred to as TF, but the honey producing part of the operation are treated colonies. There are a lot of gray areas and blurred lines for an unscrupulous person to exploit. Ask many detailed questions and keep your money if your questions make them mad.

Alex


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I was talking right now on the phone with a friend who bred from my Elgon F1 (2 winters survived).
He was on a speaking by Paul Jungels.
Mr. Jungels was very optimistic about the future and wants that now all beekeepers, amateur beekeepers and professional beekeepers get access to resistant bees without having to buy expensive queens.
This should be possible through associations that offer mating places and artificial inseminations that cost nothing to the members.
Mr. Jungels has developed several lines of queens that show 100% VSH behavior and yet meet the needs of beekeepers, bringing honey and gentleness.
I think this is a possibility for us, my colleague has also met a new friend, who also has several lines of Elgon and both persons are accessible to me by car. The association there has a mating place and the treatment-free beekeeping there is funded by state.
I asked to be invited to the next meeting.

http://www.apisjungels.lu/varroa-resistance-is-not-a-pipedream.html


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

All the best with it SiWolKe, hope it works out.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Just like BartJan Fernhaut, Paul Jungels has several lines already showing 100% VSH.
http://perso.unamur.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_PJ_2017.html

Roll the page all the way down, there are 3 breeders (used for drones 2017), in the column on the right there is VSH%.
(By change the best 3 have some my bees as ancestors.  , you see the pedigree as a tree when you click the "etc" )



Copy from another thread:
" https://aristabeeresearch.org/

The second video has has subtitles in English and it is about BartJan Fernhauts work in Hawaii and presenting Baton Rouge and Marken Group in Holland as well.

In the latest Buckfast Breeders Magazine (3/2018) there is a story by Sascha and Ulrich Müller of a VSH meeting where BartJan Fernhaut has been teaching. He told that they have in Hawaii ( 4 fulltime beekeepers helping him) queens which produce 100% VSH offspring. ( "100% VSH Verhalten erbstabil nachzuziehen") They are not Buckfast, more like Italian."


The question still to be answered is whether these 100% VSH breeders offspring can stand mite pressure when their daughter queens are sold all over Europe.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

SiWolKe said:


> *Mr. Jungels*



First name Bo ?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

The OP is (was...don't see them around this thread) a inexperienced beekeeper with 2 hives of package bees.
Why dose a tread like this always become a soap box for the TF crowd to try to talk a new beekeeper in to killing their hives? 

Beekeeping is a numbers game not religion.... you need to play the odds if you want bees come spring.

telling the OP "Yes, you should treat for mites this year, spend the winter researching, and go buy a few Bweaver queens (sence the OP is in TX) come spring " will have a much better chance of the OP becoming a TF beekeeper... vs becoming an ex beekeeper
no one (or very, very few)has been a success going TF with package bees 
the pseudoscience and outher "great" ideas like microbes/scorpins etc needs to go way as does bond, neither has paned out, neither is a reasonable path forward. 
We know from gotland what happens when we remove the beekeeper (true bond) Fries etal 2006 -150 hives in 8 apiaries became 7 hives 5 years later.... despite swarm collecting and feeding 







2004 they had to intervene and make splits to keep the stock from being lost

As JL notes, TF is an advanced beekeeping skill, not suited to the beginner. 
As Sam comfort talks about.... You need to learn to be a sustainable beekeeper 1st... once that is obtained then you can work on not treating.
the title of his latest video say it all "TF, but not stupid"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh4A_WtTLEg

less stupidity, more sustainability and reality is whats needed....
going TF on package bees is stupidity, they NEED to be medicated


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> First name Bo ?


Paul


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

JL he was making a cultural reference/joke on a popular 1970s US song 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-LVXR6rjXs


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Got me on that one...

great song, I just love it


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

You are on it MSL


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I just wish I could walk with a soft sole shoe instead of a hard head... Like mark I tire of this game


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Juhani Lunden said:


> The question still to be answered is whether these 100% VSH breeders offspring can stand mite pressure when their daughter queens are sold all over Europe.


You don´t know if you don´t try.
Why do you think Erik sells his queens to a price we can afford? He wants to have some feedback and he gets it. What´s great is, all beeks I know who have elgons never treated them so we can watch what happens.

OT,
thanks for the kind words.

msl,
you seem to think new beekeepers are not able to use their brains.
The posts on this forum are so varied in the opinions nobody is brainwashed.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Banging my head here!!
My question is.....how come some are treatment free with what appears to be little effort, while the rest of us are too busy slinging mud at each other and we havent yet got to where we what to be?
Is there a missing step here somewhere?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

mischief said:


> Banging my head here!!
> My question is.....how come some are treatment free with what appears to be little effort, while the rest of us are too busy slinging mud at each other and we havent yet got to where we what to be?
> Is there a missing step here somewhere?


It´s the circumstances of your location.

Have feral survivors around to bring good genetics and to provide your beeyard with new colonies after high losses is what many do, catching swarms.
Isolation and distributing of your own genetics via drones helps much.

I have not such advantage. No ferals and no swarms around.I have weak stock all around, treated prophylactically all the time, propagating strong survivor mites, I have high density of hives in my area. I´m not the least isolated.
If I would do like Michael Bush can or others do, being able to ignoring the mite situation, I had no bees left after one season. I tried this once with an artificial swarm, made of local mutts and they were dead in a few months.

I´m really amazed I still have some survivors which must be the resistant bred stock I use now. But let´s see how it will be in spring.

By the way: My first colony was treated and they died too. 30-40% deadouts from treated hives are normal here in my locale.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Oh SiW, I wasnt having a go at you! or any one else.
I despair, even though I have managed so far to have zero loses with my one hive. I just do not understand why some can have healthy hives and we o not.
there must be missing factors or we would all be able to do as MB etc... are.

We dont have ferals either.
Sadly, we here, also have a huge problem with AFB compared to other countries.
Those that are treating here are having to leave their treatments in for 2 extra weeks, viral loads here appear to be viralent compared to earlier years.

I just think we are missing something important, a missing link, a missing something that would change things if we could just see what it was.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I´m never offended! 



> I just think we are missing something important, a missing link, a missing something that would change things if we could just see what it was.


Wish I would know!
I created a feral hive which lives now since 2016, never opened and it still thrives and goes into winter strong and I´m observing some escaped swarms living in stone walls.
Could be left alone will help.

We are a group in my forum which works on the improvements, the longest lived tf bees are 6 years now but my co-worker is an excellent seasoned beekeeper who knows exactly what to do to keep his bees strong.
Losses so far + - 30% which is great.

But it´s about beekeeping and we want to have some honey. So livestock husbandry is not "having" bees.

So why not just learn from the bees and monitor what happens right now while treating and become more experienced? There are many approaches to tf and if you only need some OAV instead of formic or other hard chemicals you do the first step in the right direction.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Thanks, those are all good points.
I did start off with the softest-FGMO, so, yes, I will keep on trying.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I'm lost - totally and utterly lost.

I think my basic problem is that I have absolutely zero understanding of the core principles (the aims and objectives) of the TF movement. I understand the concept of 'letting Nature take it's course' - and although I'm pessimistic about this approach to Varroa, at least I can understand the fundamental principles involved.

Now in my lexicon - intervention, management, or any form of human activity designed to influence an organism's behaviour or remedy a problem is a *treatment* - originally from the Latin _tractare_ meaning to "manage, handle, deal with, or conduct oneself toward", and used within the field of medicine from 1780 onwards to mean "to attempt to heal or cure, to manage in the application of remedies".

But - within the context of 'Treatment-Free' - I'm now reading about human selection of genetic strains, and the use of Artificial Insemination techniques to promote these strains ... *at the expense of others. - i.e. which will effectively result in a well-intentioned but cavalier reduction of the gene pool.* How do either of these square with the concept of 'letting Nature take it's course' ?

The problems which the beekeeping community currently find themselves in are a direct consequence of human interference - of people arrogantly thinking that they are smarter than Nature - and yet here we see exactly the same thinking being applied: that OUR choice of genetic strain - because it happens to deal with a problem we currently find too tough for us to deal with - is the magic solution. But at what future cost ?

Although we've been stumbling about in the dark for many years, we appear now to be at the threshold of some major advances towards the understanding of how best to deal with Varroa. It's only very recently that the food source of the (so-called) phoretic mites has been identified, and so our knowledge is beginning to develop at long last. Perhaps very shortly we'll even begin to understand how Oxalic Acid itself has such a dramatic effect upon the mites. Until then, I for one am prepared to play a waiting game until an increase in our understanding hopefully leads to a widespread reduction in mite numbers, so that they eventually become an occasional problem to be dealt with, rather than an essential component of the beekeeping calendar.
LJ


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

mischief said:


> Thanks, those are all good points.
> I did start off with the softest-FGMO, so, yes, I will keep on trying.


The time window is spring to summer, the measures must then be completed so that the bees can prepare undisturbed for the winter and store the supplies.
J.Lee, a member here in the forum, told me about a friend who has been removing the first drone brood in spring when capped, for years and is tf for many years. Only this, no contaminated comb by treatments.
There are a lot fewer mites in the hive after this culling.
You can do that and then see how high the mite infestation is in the spring when you open the cells, pull out the pupa, and see how many mites are in the cells.
It's good to try something like that, even if it's not a nice job. The bees then breed new drones.
After that, you can decide if and how much you treat, in OAV you have to treat several times, as the mites do not die in the brood.


> How do either of these square with the concept of 'letting Nature take it's course' ?


What nature? Man made nature?
:scratch:
Wild honeybees are almost extinct in europe so we have only "lifestock" bees. 
Perhaps a time will come our bees are regressed so much they are like wild honeybees again, but I don´t see anyone wanting wild honeybees with their wild behaviours except some scientists who want them to improve lifestock genetics.
If I had a cow giving 40l of milk every day I would not let her run free either. She will not survive.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

SiWolKe said:


> > How do either of these square with the concept of 'letting Nature take it's course' ?
> 
> 
> What nature? Man made nature?


I think (or at least had assumed) that the expression meant "letting Natural *processes* take their course" - i.e. to allow something to happen without trying to control or influence it in any way. i.e. - it relates to a mechanism, not an end-state.
LJ


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>But the consequence of a Varroa mite infestation is invariably death...

Yet almost every weekend I talk to dozens of people personally who are keeping bees without treatments and succeeding. And emails every day from dozens more. There are thousands of successful treatment free beekeepers that I know of personally. How many more are there that I don't know of? How many just don't want to put their head up and get attacked by those who say they are the problem instead of the solution?


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> Hey Oldtimer. How ya been. What you said is one reason I stopped Posting.


Hi Mark, have missed you here also, you have much experience and wisdom to share, so does Oldtimer. Some people have a hard time getting over themselves, so to speak, don’t let it ruin your sharing.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Michael Bush said:


> >But the consequence of a Varroa mite infestation is invariably death...
> 
> Yet almost every weekend I talk to dozens of people personally who are keeping bees without treatments and succeeding. And emails every day from dozens more. There are thousands of successful treatment free beekeepers that I know of personally. How many more are there that I don't know of? How many just don't want to put their head up and get attacked by those who say they are the problem instead of the solution?



I continually wonder what the difference is between those of you who are able to keep bees without treatments and those of us who are not yet able to do so.
There must be something we are not doing or locational things that we may be able to correct if we just knew what they were.

I thought at first that it must be that you are all experienced Beeks, but there are also alot of those who are not able to be TF.

Have you noticed anything along these lines that might be of help to us?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> There are thousands of successful treatment free beekeepers that I know of personally.


with all due respect michael i have to question this. 

i've suggested that the best way to become treatment free is to find someone in your area having success with it and obtain bees and advice from them.

if there are thousands of successful treatment free beekeepers out there it shouldn't be as difficult as it appears to be for those interested to locate them.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

mischief said:


> Have you noticed anything along these lines that might be of help to us?


Likely, a gene pool thing. New Zealanders could import, with MPI permission and a lengthy island quarantine, semen from docile, Varroa resistant or tolerant honeybees, such as those in Puerto Rico, to increase the gene pool. Of course, life finds a way, and the best laid plans of mice and men go awry, so you invariably run the risk of importing novel viruses. It’s a sticky wicket.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

There were a number of semen imports done around 20 ish years ago, and there was a lot of red tape around it plus almost impossible to meet demands to try to prevent new diseases getting in with the semen.

All the same, over the next few years a number of new bee pathogens made their appearance in NZ. Nobody really knows if it was the semen or not, but some prominant people in the industry think it was. So, semen imports were banned, and have been since.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> >But the consequence of a Varroa mite infestation is invariably death...
> 
> Yet almost every weekend I talk to dozens of people personally who are keeping bees without treatments and succeeding. And emails every day from dozens more. There are thousands of successful treatment free beekeepers that I know of personally. How many more are there that I don't know of? How many just don't want to put their head up and get attacked by those who say they are the problem instead of the solution?


There are many here too, mostly very small hobbyists. Most of them do "live and let die". MB is correct about this.
But there is no advance. Because of the high losses this beeks are not considered. Therefore they don´t go public. Losses are up to 90% with local mutts but the survivors can be used.
If the tf beeks are not going public this genetics are lost which is a shame.

Plus, they are illegal because we have a law that forces us to treat. 

It might change. The treaters start to be interested the moment they hear there can be a strategy like soft bond. To have more resistant bees this needs more time but it prevents losses.
And we are not illegal anymore doing this because having a strategy to show we are not persecuted.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Most of them do "live and let die". MB is correct about this. But there is no advance. Because of the high losses this beeks are not considered. Therefore they don´t go public. Losses are up to 90% with local mutts but the survivors can be used.


"success" is in the eye of the beholder I guess...:scratch:
unless a yard/stock is at least stable, but far better increasing, or a net exporter of bees I don't see it as a success. 

on a landscape scale, local sustainability with/with out treatments is stage one, till we hit that mark almost everything elce we do is washed away in a sea of foreign drones from queens sourced thousands of miles away brought in on a replacement treadmill


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> on a landscape scale, local sustainability with/with out treatments is stage one, till we hit that mark almost everything elce we do is washed away in a sea of foreign drones from queens sourced thousands of miles away brought in on a replacement treadmill


These beliefs are pessimistic and do not lead to an improvement.
They intimidate and prevent beekeepers from doing anything themselves.

I call a sucess to have any survivors at all in some locale.

The opposite of pessimistic views would be to unite and do something together. Difficult, but feasible, if you can not convince yourself quickly of the opposite. Meanwhile, there are also experienced beekeepers who rethink and are available for such ways and support the small hobbyist.

It's time to leave the misgivings behind and take a fresh turn in the new directions.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The successful ones I talk to have the same loss rates as those around them who are treating or less.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

SiWolKe said:


> These beliefs are pessimistic and do not lead to an improvement.
> They intimidate and prevent beekeepers from doing anything themselves.
> 
> I call a sucess to have any survivors at all in some locale.
> ...


It’s not pessimism, it is a fact.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> ........almost everything elce we do is washed away in a sea of foreign drones from queens sourced thousands of miles away brought in on a replacement treadmill........


We'll see about this exact issue.
Maybe not necessarily "washed away".
I am yet to see anyone running their own local "drone generators" by design (outside of what SiWolKe mentioned maybe going in Euro)

It is all about "young queens" and more "young queens" and more.... of the same.

Well, the old, desirable queens are very much part of the local sustainability program and are to be kept around for as long as possible - yes, *for drone generation*.
Heck, a queen can be kept around for 5-6 years easily and pump desirable drones for local consumption just as well.
The pre-planned local drone production is, essentially, non-existent. 

It is the opposite ideas that are in favor right now - let us cull them drones. 
God forbid if bees will make some drone comb - cut that junk out.
A big mistake as the desirable drones should be in demand and generated by design.
People should be begging for local "drone pollination" services - I am yet to see this.
Well, working on it.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

msl said:


> "success" is in the eye of the beholder I guess...:scratch:
> unless a yard/stock is at least stable, but far better increasing, or a net exporter of bees I don't see it as a success.
> <Snip>
> /QUOTE]
> ...


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

GregV “The pre-planned local drone production is, essentially, non-existent. “
Maybe I’m missing something here but most “good” queen producers have just that.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Cloverdale said:


> GregV “The pre-planned local drone production is, essentially, non-existent. “
> Maybe I’m missing something here but most “good” queen producers have just that.


I am not talking of large scale industrial queen producers.
Drone generation or artificial insemination is part of their conveyor line.
I am not aware of any large-scale queen sellers representing themselves here.
So let's just put them away.

I am talking of little, local guys like me - 20(+/-) hives.
Better yet - a community of little, local guys.
Everyone should be thinking of your own "drone generation" IF you care to have some sort of a local bee at all.
If you don't to it, the large-scale queen seller will do it for you - not the best option.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

I agree with that; the beekeepers around me still don’t have any type of sustainable apiary. They all import bees whether nucs or packages from the south. Very disenhartening. A guy who started the same time as I did, going into our 7th year, has never heard of Randy Oliver, Mike Palmer, etc.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Re the thousands of successful TF beekeepers, Solomon Parkers TF Facebook page has (i think) in excess of 20,000 members.

So it's highly likely that Michael Bush would indeed get what must seem like thousands of emails, and of course, many of these people telling him they are successful.

Even here in NZ, there have been a fair number of people pop up from time to time on the local internet telling us they are successfully keeping TF bees. They will bend, or omit, the truth a bit also, forgetting to mention they catch 10 new swarms each year and have been catching around 10 a year for the last 4 years, current hive numbers, 10. Stuff like that.

However I've been around a while and know everyone, or, someone who does, and can usually find out where people are really at. ALL the NZ internet posters who have claimed to be successful TF beekeepers, are not. None of them. But that is not what a casual reader would be led to believe reading their posts.

And I am not even applying a rigorous definition of successful such as, TF and harvesting honey. I'm just using a basic definition, ie, don't treat, and have hives that have survived long term (2 plus years). Regardless of honey crop.

I did get to the 2 year mark with some of my own TF bees, probably a NZ record. But by that time they were in a very bad way, and done for.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> A big mistake as the desirable drones should be in demand and generated by design.


agreed, and to the point I was making was when it comes to drones a f-2+ (local X import) overwinter queen and hive is better then a puppy mill import queen and package come spring, even if it takes some IPM to get it to survive. 
The OG queen is tossing her genetics in drones.
While the colonys workers and thuse performance in a F-1 is impacted by the local drones she mated with, they are throwing drones with the genetics of OG QueenX and foren drones she mated with. 
Its not till F-2 we see the out flow of "local" genetics back to the environment. Simply put drones don''t have fathers, but they have grandfathers, you need to get to the point were the grandfathers/great grand fathers are of the stock you want for the drones to be help full in inacting change... 
Another way to look at it is drones don't have sons, but they have grandsons 

when people can't keep hives alive long enuff to get to that point (3rd year for many ), the net effect is the area is flooded with foren drones from replacement stock sourced form far away. This wipes out adaptation as the poor genetics are not removed from the breeding pool when a hive dies, they are replaced with more of the same. 

The way off the treadmill is local sustainability beekeeping. Keeping your bees alive, making up your own replacements, and having a few extra in the spring for those who were not so lucky/skilled. 

If the majority of backyard beekeepers took care of there mites, and pulled/overwintered a nuc per full sized hive things would be very different and some work on the problem would be possibly, the price of bees would fall as craigs list would be flooded with local nucs come spring... and the shift from replacments being foren packages to local nucs would alow localy adapted and mite resistant gentnics to be developed and take hold....

but... theres more... the bigist issue is people NOT using resistant stocks... the TF message is you have to breed them your self, this is hurt full to the cause. The reason TF isn't working/spreading isn't that such bees can't/don't exist.... Its that there isn't a market for them.  Some of that is the "do it your self" message, some of it is the let them die message... hives fail, mite bombs can take out the best stock... understanding the need to sometimes protect your stock going back to the drone issue... those queens and there f-1s would be distributing resistance genetics and should be protected... even if it takes treatments... as the area will be better off for it. 
we need to encourage people to buy and then propagate local drivitives of them.

We need to demand resistant stock instead of settling for puppy mill package queens. Once we are sustainable we have choices, it becomes a buyers market, and we would not bee like many are now, buying anything they can, in a panic to place an order before the bees are sold out for the year... The pre orders have allready started in my areainch:

its simple suply and demand.... if the puppy mills were left holding a bunch of unsold packages and all the Russian/VSH queens were sold out, it wouln't take but a year or 2 for the queen producers to start shifting what they were making...

we (the US) have done this once.... when Italian bees came in there was a huge demand (genital and more productive is a huge incentive) .... threw mass production and constant re queening the bee gentnics of a country was shifted...
before then a queen was a queen.... but all of a suden people could get $20 for an Italian queen (near $600 in todays $$$),it's no coincidence the classic queen rearing manuals came out in this era. The market demanded... the queen producers answered 

We are back to a queen is a queen/I will take what ever I can get (hobbyist market)... In till that changes we get no were.. 



> I am talking of little, local guys like me - 20(+/-) hives.
> Better yet - a community of little, local guys.
> Everyone should be thinking of your own "drone generation" IF you care to have some sort of a local bee at all..


yes... and no....
ego says your bees are better...the math, not so much. see my drone points. the reality is everyone should be looking in to drone suppression of sub par stock, the bottom 90%... alive dose not make breeding stock... 

there are those who understand the facts about bees and those the don't....devil take the hindmost...if only one could keep them from spreading like a mite bomb..
_*
WE *_ created this problem, and the TF movement is far from with out blame
the fix is simple.... locals stop bringing in (or saveing swarms from) package bees...


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

article in november 2018 bees magazine:

How much we have bred in the last decades in the direction of strong mites is shown, among other things, by the ever-increasing damage threshold: 
In 1980, when it was still at 6,000 and more mites, most colonies today already crash at an infestation of less than 2,500 mites , In 1980, winter treatment ( OA) was enough to save the colonie´s survival.

Later, this was replaced by a treatment in late summer by formic acid. The treatment in winter was then an additional option for a long time. But by the end of the nineties, it could not be avoided. Until the turn of the millennium, many hives died before treatment in late summer. In order to lower the mite infestation early, the removal of drone brood became the most important method before or during the spring flow.

Since 2015, it is said, especially with late flow, not without a kind of intermediate treatment in the summer to get along.
Therefore, the management of total brood frame culling was started during the swarming period.
author:
Dr. Wolfgang Ritter




> GregV
> It is all about "young queens" and more "young queens" and more.... of the same.
> Well, the old, desirable queens are very much part of the local sustainability program and are to be kept around for as long as possible - yes, for drone generation.


:thumbsup:
The constant shifting of queens kills a good hive´s genetics which would stay much longer to throw drones.



> crofter.
> There are some quite creative ways of measuring losses, one being the neglect to account for multiple splits and combining just before collapse. Some of the testimonial style reporting leaves room for plenty of skepticism.


Treaters count their losses like that!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I suppose everyone is guilty of some degree of confirmation bias and lack of objectivity, but this is classic!

"How much we have bred in the last decades in the direction of strong mites is shown, among other things, by the ever-increasing damage threshold:"

The mites immediate damage to the adult bee and to the developing pupae is nothing compared to the vectored viral and other disease. New viruses have been introduced that the mites easily spread around without any need for adaptation on their part. I think this is a quite likely a more plausible cause behind any apparent need to keep mite levels lower than has been recommended in the past.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

crofter said:


> I suppose everyone is guilty of some degree of confirmation bias and lack of objectivity, but this is classic!
> 
> "How much we have bred in the last decades in the direction of strong mites is shown, among other things, by the ever-increasing damage threshold:"
> 
> The mites immediate damage to the adult bee and to the developing pupae is nothing compared to the vectored viral and other disease. New viruses have been introduced that the mites easily spread around without any need for adaptation on their part. I think this is a quite likely a more plausible cause behind any apparent need to keep mite levels lower than has been recommended in the past.


:scratch:
he just stated the obvious, increase of treatments at lower numbers of mites. Where will it end?
Perhaps he should mention that we bred bees without an immune system because of the constantly rising treatments and other factors.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

crofter said:


> The mites immediate damage to the adult bee and to the developing pupae is nothing compared to the vectored viral and other disease. New viruses have been introduced that the mites easily spread around without any need for adaptation on their part. I think this is a quite likely a more plausible cause behind any apparent need to keep mite levels lower than has been recommended in the past.


That is not just plausible, it's a fact.


I don't really know what a "strong mite" is.

Could it be one that works out, and goes to the gym? 


But seriously what i do know, is that when varroa mites were introduced to bee populations, virus levels in bees were not only thousand of times lower than they would become over the next decade or two but also a different biomix.


In NZ, it took a decade after the introduction of varroa, for virus levels in bees to increase to massive levels thousands of times higher than natural. And then after that, for the viruses to be competing and selecting towards virulent ones, and less virulent ones no longer showing up in laboratory analysis. We now have a whole different mix of viruses in our bees than we did the first few years after the introduction of varroa, the mix has been selecting and shifting and getting more deadly, thanks to their little varroa allies. Be those varroa "strong", or not. They all penetrate the bees skin to feed, injecting pathogens.


As this process happened, the treatment threshold for mite numbers was lowered as the diseases they were spreading became so high, and so deadly. Me now, when deciding wether to treat, I don't even take much notice of the mite levels, I look for the diseases they spread, by looking for pms, weak adults, etc, these things tell me if the mites need treating.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

SiWolKe said:


> In 1980, when it was still at 6,000 and more mites, *most colonies today already crash at an infestation of less than 2,500 mites* , In 1980, winter treatment ( OA) was enough to save the colonie´s survival.


How does he know that then ? MOST colonies ? So who's keeping a world-wide register of mite crashes and counting the number of mites in 'em ?

Personally, I don't have mite crashes anymore - thanks (until this year) to a single winter dose of Oxalic Acid. I'm only currently engaging in multiple-doses with a view to a complete elimination, as opposed to ongoing mite population control.

Also - check this out:


> In this study, we found an ideal biological framework to test the hypothesis of Milani (2001). This author postulated that the risk of emergence of resistance for the oxalic acid is high if its use is prolonged in time.
> [...]
> These results indicate that the Varroa population from the Federal apiary remained susceptible to the OA despite its prolonged use in time. It was also interesting that this 'focal' population resulted more susceptible to the acid than the 'naïve' population with mites never exposed to it.
> 
> *The susceptibility of Varroa destructor against oxalic acid: a study case.* Maggi et al., Bulletin of Insectology 70(1), 2017


LJ

Link:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...structor-against-oxalic-acid-A-study-case.pdf


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I find it amazing and disgusting that "stuff" poorly supported in fact, gets spread on the forums with such chest thumping certainty! 

Many people are intimidated into letting it ride without questioning.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

One needs to look at where all this learned rhetoric from comes' mostly from a group of beekeepers who do not produce much from their hives other than the hot air that keeps telling folks that are making a living or income from their bees that they are doing it all wrong. For most of these folks just the survival of a colony is an indication of success. I wonder how many of these folks are leasing out colonies for pollination, shucks I wish I could but nobody is growing almonds in my neck of the woods and if they were I would probably have about a thousand colonies by now. Which reminds me of a commercial guy who visited one of the major treatment free guys who commented that this guys hives were just like his dinks that never made the cut for almond pollination. I often wonder what it is that they get out of beekeeping and it seems to me that it is the illusion of being one of the environmentalists or green tree huggers that are going to save our planet for the ungrateful greedy people like us who steal the honey out of the mouths of starving brood, Sorry about the rant but I flunked out in diplomacy. I wonder about the guys who do this for a living, dont you get tired of preaching to the intellectual giants who know it all.
Johno


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> ...... when people can't keep hives alive long enuff to get to that point (3rd year for many )......
> 
> the fix is simple.... locals stop bringing in (or saveing swarms from) package bees...


Haha...
And then you are kicking me for "abusing my livestock".
People do not get it when I say - "I can not wait when some of my bees die" AND "I am trying to bend over backwards to save some tiny nucs"..
You guys are saying - what? Which is it?

Is it not obvious?
* Yes, I want those package swarms I caught the last summer to die off as quickly as possible (so I can get some honey off of them). 
BUT, I do not know sometimes the origin of the swarm I caught (usually I have a good idea, but not always; for example, if I caught an escaped Saskatraz queen, I'd rather keep it alive).
* Yes, at the same time, I will put in lots of time and resources to save a tiny nuc that I think preserves a valuable line going forward 
(worthy drone generation going forward is a part this outlook - but yes, it takes several turn overs; .......yes, we get the idea about the "Grandpa but no Dad", etc, etc)


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Erik Österlund met Daniel Weaver ( 3000 hives, many many years tf) in Czech Republic but I´m not telling you what he said.

Because I asked the administration to delete my account and ban me.

Now celebrate, my friends, and I do it too. Future is looking good!


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Cloverdale said:


> I agree with that; the beekeepers around me still don’t have any type of sustainable apiary. They all import bees whether nucs or packages from the south. Very disenhartening. A guy who started the same time as I did, going into our 7th year, has never heard of Randy Oliver, Mike Palmer, etc.


That is sad. I don’t treat. I sell bees. My queens die of natural causes, and the bees replace them. I use foundationless in the brood chamber, so they make as many drones as they want. I don’t feed. I’ve got fall honey in hives now that I ought to harvest. Smaller hives and fewer hives per yard. We have a lot of feral colonies. Different location, different bees, different way of doing things. It is scalable, but not by me at least in the near term.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> Because I asked the administration to delete my account and ban me.


What administration? Delete you from what? Not Beesource, I hope.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Greg, It was more of in incomplete thought. I was going some were aboutsome people feeling every swarm they catch was feral survivor stock, when the truth is they were likly perpetuation the lines they are against by allowing them to throw drones for another year.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Riverderwent said:


> What administration? Delete you from what? Not Beesource, I hope.


I still have access on BS but I´m not takinging it back this time.
SP has my e-mail adress and the permission to give it to those interested.
I need my energy to my project, not to defend myself here. I want to enjoy life with my bees not be abused every time I look into a forum.

Good luck to all and goodbye.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

I have looked forward to your posts and was looking forward to hearing more about your hives that had high mite loads but still appeared to be doing okay/well.
i wish you all the best but wish you werent leaving.
Not everybody here is against you......maybe that holiday I spoke of.....a couple of weeks maybe instead of just a few days


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

SiWolKe said:


> Good luck to all and goodbye.


It's too bad that you are unable to accept my signature line.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Threads that wander off into the Treatment/Treatment Free arena never seem to end well. I think it's one of the most divisive topics in beekeeping discussions. If one is going to actively participate and defend their position ( from either perspective ) they need to have very thick skin. 

I try to steer clear of TF discussions. It's a lot like politics. Other than brand new beekeepers, most have already made up their mind what they believe, and it seems that no amount of talking or heated discussion really changes anyone's mind about the topic. It creates hard feelings and really goes nowhere, just around in circles.


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## tom0354 (May 25, 2018)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Threads that wander off into the Treatment/Treatment Free arena never seem to end well. I think it's one of the most divisive topics in beekeeping discussions. If one is going to actively participate and defend their position ( from either perspective ) they need to have very thick skin.
> 
> I try to steer clear of TF discussions. It's a lot like politics. Other than brand new beekeepers, most have already made up their mind what they believe, and it seems that no amount of talking or heated discussion really changes anyone's mind about the topic. It creates hard feelings and really goes nowhere, just around in circles.


Well said. Funny how couple months/year a thread would pop up and same discussion occur. In the end no one change their mind but every one got upset.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Mind changes do happen, but not by bashing people on the head. There are quite a few people on the forum who have switched from one camp to the other, in both directions.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> I still have access on BS but I´m not takinging it back this time.
> SP has my e-mail adress and the permission to give it to those interested.
> I need my energy to my project, not to defend myself here. I want to enjoy life with my bees not be abused every time I look into a forum.
> 
> Good luck to all and goodbye.


Thank you. A lot folks who you think won’t miss you will. I took a hiatus and came back refreshed. But maybe you won’t, and that’s okay too. We say, “The people that matter don’t care; and the people that care don’t matter.” I hope that maybe you come back after a bit refreshed. There are lots of different ways to keep bees and have fun. Every person has different goals, different bees, and different locations. I can share my experiences, not try to change minds, and let you be you. I’ll miss hearing about your experiences.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

beemandan said:


> It's too bad that you are unable to accept my signature line.


Emerson also said, “Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.”


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

I am chiming in really late. As a beekeeper my goal is to raise the healthiest hives of bees I can. However, raising bees treatment free is not raising healthy bees. Parasites have been a part of the human existence since we came into being. Being alive and capable of reproduction and being healthy are two very different things. Humans have lived with tapeworms, flukes, fleas, lice, various round worms, bed bugs and thousands of other bacteria, mold and other parasites. But living with these parasites is not living with good health. How many millions of years and generations have humans lived with these parasites and not become immune or resistant to them? Why are you expecting bees to become resistant/immune in a couple of decades? If your children were plagued with fleas or tapeworms or varroa mites you would NOT even consider the motto "Let the strong survive", you would be taking them to the doctor for treatment. Letting hive after hive suffer and die is inhumane and cruel in my opinion. At best, it is only irresponsible.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

I agree that it would be irresponsible to keep bees in such a fashion where they just die from disease or parasites....yet there are many out there who are TF and their bees are doing as well as, if not better, than treated bees......if you believe that they are being honest when they tell us this and I do.

If my kids ever had tapeworms then something would be terribly wrong and yes I would most definitely take them an myself to the doctor, get it fixed and we would live happily every after with no more worms, but thats not how it is with our bees and something is most definitely wrong here!!! No quick fix from the Doc. Its more a life support scenario.
Fleas?, nah probably not, but then I have the old fashioned remedies from my Nana for those.

As you say, letting a hive suffer and die is inhumane and cruel.......
Cruelty appears to be a relative thing especially when you see what sharks do to each other in the name of reproduction.

I happen to think that it is a cruelty to pour toxic chemicals into a hive just to keep it alive.
No life form is healthy if it needs to be medicated just to continue to live, not even our own.
So your bees are not healthy, just alive.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

mischief said:


> I happen to think that it is a cruelty to pour toxic chemicals into a hive just to keep it alive.
> No life form is healthy if it needs to be medicated just to continue to live, not even our own.
> So your bees are not healthy, just alive.


Emotive rhetoric ...

For Varroa mites try using Vapourised Oxalic Acid - which is non-toxic to bees in the amounts used. The bees are just as healthy after the treatment as they were before it. Not so the mites - as they are the organisms being treated.

With regard to health, a clear distinction needs to be made between parasitism and disease - they are NOT the same thing, although one can certainly lead to the other.

We humans are responsible for the situation bees currently find themselves in, and yet many are placing the onus for a solution to the Varroa problem upon the bees themselves. But this problem is of OUR making, and so it ought to be up to US to rectify the situation - and hopefully learn something about our own stupidity and greed in the process.
LJ


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

mischief said:


> I happen to think that it is a cruelty to pour toxic chemicals into a hive just to keep it alive.


But you have just done that with your own hive?


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

You are right.... emotive rhetoric..... and I agree that we are responsible for the situation bees find themselves.

Having said that, the earlier question posed as a comparison, was in regards to tapeworms in our kids.
The answer is, Yes!,you take your kids to the doctor, get a med and voila la! no more tapeworms.
That is not the situation bees face with varroa, except for those who somehow have managed to get their bees to the point where they dont need to treat them with anything.

That fact that this parasite has persisted for so long for most beeks is worrying to me. That fact that so many have said they tried to go treatment free and failed is too.
I think there is something wrong with this scenario but, as I am just a newbie I am looking for answers not touting them.
I am not willing to accept that in order to have healthy bees, I must continuously treat them.
In order to save my hive this spring, I had to put in Apivar. Just as I would treat my kids with meds if absolutely necessary, I did to my hive. I dont want to have to keep doing that though.

I understand about the OAV and actually have the kit for this now, but followed the advice of a more experienced beek= live hive so far.
OAV is also treating. So far, there are no documented adverse side effects, but you are talking about something that you cannot breathe and can cause serious damage to your eyes....yet it is okay to put in with the bees who also have eyes and also have delicate antennae. I find this really odd.


Gee, I sound like a real hypocrite!!

What I am trying to do is keep them alive by what ever means possible, using the softest approaches first, while I regress them down to small cell in an attempt to follow examples that have been set by others.
So far, two years with zero loses. Probably causes alot of eye rolling and sniggers but, you know what? Zero losses is pretty good even if it is only one hive.
If others can have treatment free bees, then I know if I can get everything right, then so can I.....gotta keep your eye on the mountain(goal) and keep walking towards it. 
Sometimes there are gullies. Sometimes, you have to take a slight detour or go off over a cliff.... But if you never try, you will never even have a chance to get there.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

mischief said:


> Gee, I sound like a real hypocrite!!


Yes you do.


But it's not really that.


What's happening is that like probably the majority of us, you started out with high ideals, but little knowledge. You are now transitioning to more knowledge, and working in the real world not the ideal one. 

Most of us been through it, me included.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

mischief said:


> OAV is also treating. So far, there are no documented adverse side effects, but you are talking about something that you cannot breathe and can cause serious damage to your eyes....yet it is okay to put in with the bees who also have eyes and also have delicate antennae. I find this really odd.


One of the biggest hurdles to overcome in beekeeping is anthropomorphism - of drawing direct parallels between ourselves and bees, yet our physiologies are completely different. Bees do not have our lungs or our respiratory tracts, covered as they are by sensitive cilia. They don't have eyes with tear-ducts ensuring that their surfaces are always wet, and thus vulnerable to airborne acidic dust. I agree with you about their antennae - a very poorly understood organ - but if Oxalic Acid dust did cause bees serious discomfort, then I'd expect them to come barreling out of the hive in protest following VOA mite treatment. But they don't - there's usually no reaction at all. Sometimes a few come out for a quick look around, just as when I top-up syrup or do anything else to a hive - so I guess it's just a case of my presence causing them to investigate "what's going on just outside our home".

Should anyone need convincing about the difference between the eyes of honeybees and our own - just consider how a mere speck of dust in our own eyes can cause such distress ... then look at these photographs of honeybee eyes:





Imagine having those hairs sticking out through the cornea of your own eyes ! Doesn't bear thinking about. 
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> ....then I'd expect them to come barreling out of the hive in protest following VOA mite treatment. But they don't - there's usually no reaction at all... LJ


Well, you know for five years we lived in our brand new, shiny house until it occurred to us - we better test for radon.
The city admin and the builder conveniently (and still!!!) deny or downplay the occurrence of radon in my area.
One of their stances - radon is natural. 
I totally agree - radon is natural and it is in air all around us.
It is the concentration of radon of concern (as well as general ventilation of the house is of concern).
Ideally, indoor concentration should be the same as the outdoor concentration.

It turned out, the radon level my darn house was about 3 times the level considered safe.
OK, radon has no smell and no taste and no one would run out the house coughing and sneezing due to radon.
But meanwhile the effect of radon on human health is compatible to that of smoking.
Technically, radon's decay product (isotope of lead) is radioactive and tends to accumulate in house dust and such.

So, the entire family "has been smoking" for years without a clue about it (non-stop 24/7 smoking, pretty much; including little kids).
Conveniently, it will be impossible to prove or disprove this "smoking" event with any future cancers any of us my develop in the future.
Good for city admin and the builder. 
They are getting away with.
Of course, the city wants to build more housing AND the builder wants to build more housing.
None of them want to have any radon-related hysteria on hands - bad for business; bad for the city reputation; bad for taxes.
Meanwhile, the residents quietly install the mitigation systems (about 50% of the houses have it).

I immediately installed radon mitigation system when I found out. It works well.

And so - bees are not "barreling out of the hive in protest following VOA mite treatment".
This means only one thing - they don't die on the spot then and there.
They appear to not be "coughing and sneezing".
What does this mean? 
Who really knows.

No one has a clue of OA effects on bees, otherwise.
It is best to just not be "smoking" - a safer bet.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV said:


> And so - bees are not "barreling out of the hive in protest following VOA mite treatment".
> This means only one thing - they don't die on the spot then and there.
> They appear to not be "coughing and sneezing".
> What does this mean?
> ...


Much of science, especially medicine, is based on empirically gained knowledge - the theorists then come along in it's wake doing their very best to compile rational explanations for how this or that works. The history of science and medicine is littered with discoveries which were initially chance events with zero prior knowledge about them: Madam Curie's pitchblende; Joseph Lister's phenol-based antiseptics and disinfectants; the discovery of penicillin of course ... aspirin has a very long history of medicinal use, but some of it's modes of action have only recently been established. 

So it shouldn't come as a complete surprise that the mode of action of Oxalic Acid isn't yet known - but this particular gap in our knowledge shouldn't present as a deterrent against it's use. That it works as a miticide, and works extremely well - and without any hard evidence to indicate that bees suffer as a result - is good enough I'd suggest, for now, for it to be used to control the population of a very nasty little parasite until something better is found. 
The alternatives on offer are either the use of systemic miticides, which don't appeal very much to me, or do nothing - which is even worse.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't treat because I particularly want to, or because I get some kind of perverse enjoyment from killing - I do so because there's no other obvious way of keeping my colonies alive. I'd much rather not treat - but for now I consider it to be the only responsible course of action to be taking.
LJ


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

In reply to Mischiefs last post, we cannot compare honey bees/insects with people that is anthropomorphism. I’m not trying to be argumentative, just stating a fact.  Deb


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

mischief said:


> Having said that, the earlier question posed as a comparison, was in regards to tapeworms in our kids.
> The answer is, Yes!,you take your kids to the doctor, get a med and voila la! no more tapeworms.
> That is not the situation bees face with varroa, except for those who somehow have managed to get their bees to the point where they dont need to treat them with anything.


That is incorrect, it is the exact situation with varroa. You do not have to treat your children for tapeworms. They will continue to live even though they have them. Treatment free hives still have varroa, even though they continue to live and reproduce. Humans can live and reproduce with scurvy but they will not be healthy. Humans can live and reproduce with polio, MS, anemia, and hundreds of other diseases but that does not make them healthy. The same goes with bees. They can live with varroa, foul brood, and a whole bunch of other diseases and parasites. But living with them does not make them healthy. You give your kids vaccinations, vitamin pills, good food and a warm place to sleep. If you want your bees to be truly healthy, you need to do the same for them. You already provide them with a dry place to live, food and supplements when they need it. Why did you do that? Because you want healthy hives. In doing so, you have created an unnatural situation that throws the whole process of natural selection out the window.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

My my all these theories being thrown around. Lets face it I keep bees to make honey and dead or sick bees do not make much of that. Now that Radon story is another good one, maybe Radon kills mites and thats how you TF guys manage to keep bees. Now for the long term damage to bees most bees in the summer will live 6 weeks, winter bees maybe 5 months so how long is this long term stuff supposed to be. Ah queens you might say but then again I had a 3 year old queen in an observation hive that had near 36 OAV treatments. She was just superceded a couple of months ago so maybe I should now blame the OAV for her demise. And for the record I had all my children vaccinated, would de worm them if they had worms of any kind and I also get an influenza shot every year so as you can see I am definitely not a treatment free person. another story that comes up all the time is that OAV will not work when bees are clustered, who has observed this. My own observations of when OAV is introduced minto my observation hive is that the bees drop every thing they are busy with and run around in a complete panic until the vap[or is no longer visible mand after about 5 minutes return to normal.
Johno


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

dudelt said:


> Why are you expecting bees to become resistant/immune in a couple of decades?


Because they have done it with other exotic and novel pests and ailments, they have shown various observable techniques or reactions that repress mites, the likelihood that other, unobserved techniques or methods exist in random population pockets or vestigial genomes, the speed with which random genes are quickly and widely dispersed geographically with modern transportation and migratory practices, their remarkable ability to amalgamate novel genomic combinations quickly resulting in new and varied phenotypes, the fact that my bees achieve my goals of production and reward to my psyche, because it might work and I enjoy keeping bees this way and likely wouldn’t keep them if I needed to put miticides, fungicides, or antibiotics in the hive on a regular basis, and because I’m an optimist and “the whole of [my] essential and unconscious being [is] spirited and confident.” There are other reasons I’m sure. 

I don’t want to control how you keep bees, and I don’t want prevent you from judging how I keep bees if you want to do so.



> Letting hive after hive suffer and die is inhumane and cruel in my opinion.


I think that my treatment free approach is best for bees and man in the long run in my location. I respect your opinion, and if I became convinced that the way that I keep bees was causing material harm in the long run, I should hope I would change the way I keep bees or stop keeping them. I will say that there are a lot of feral bees where I am, and a large ecological niche that they fill. Unless the area were saturated with managed, non-mite resistant, treated bees, then the niche will be filled by un-managed relatively resistant bees. So in a sense, anyone who does not keep bees might as well be keeping untreated managed bees. Which would be cruel and inhumane in your opinion if what you say were to be taken literally and applied to the area where I live. Since here (not all places I’m sure) the untreated feral bees are likely a Petrie dish for “culturing” resistant bees, I’m not sure that displacing them with managed treated bees would be so good either.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

GregV said:


> No one has a clue of OA effects on bees


Not entirely true.

OA has been used on bees for many years now and few harmful effects of any economic value have been observed. And no long term effects at all. Because of bees short lifespan, observation over a couple decades is enough. Other thing, bees only live a few weeks, too short of a time to get cancer. Same reason that humans cannot live near Chernobyl, but the place has become full of wild animals such as wolves and all kinds of endangered animals, which are thriving there in the absense of humans. Their lifespan is too short to develop major problems from the radiation.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Cloverdale said:


> Deb


You are a girl? All these years I thought I was talking to a guy.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

OT, you need a new pair of glasses.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> You are a girl? All these years I thought I was talking to a guy.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

> Why are you expecting bees to become resistant/immune in a couple of decades?


Fine, tossing the same article here too.
Review about epi-genetics:

http://nautil.us/issue/63/horizons/why-the-earth-has-fewer-species-than-we-think


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

C'mon OT you told me yourself that you didnt shave down the shoulders when you tried to go SC, so you didnt do all the recommended steps and didnt get the desired result. Try again and see if it goes differently.

There are too many people out there who are or say they are TF with the same or less losses as those who are treating to discount.
That is the real world too.
I want to know what they did, what they are doing differently to others, do they have different locale, less hive density, are they all very experienced beeks, is it really just a matter of good genetics, why are they different, why are they....going to get a thrashing for this one.....why are their hives normal?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

True, after the 2 year trial i did try again with shaved down end bars, so yes, I took your advice already. Here's the rub though, my original trial used 33 mm end bars, as per Solomon Parker. Of the people claiming sucess with sc there's a bunch of them using 33 or bigger.

Are they all experienced beeks? Many not, and many if not most, do not know what they are doing different. Don't all use sc either.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

dudelt said:


> That is incorrect, it is the exact situation with varroa. You do not have to treat your children for tapeworms. They will continue to live even though they have them. Treatment free hives still have varroa, even though they continue to live and reproduce. Humans can live and reproduce with scurvy but they will not be healthy. Humans can live and reproduce with polio, MS, anemia, and hundreds of other diseases but that does not make them healthy. The same goes with bees. They can live with varroa, foul brood, and a whole bunch of other diseases and parasites. But living with them does not make them healthy. You give your kids vaccinations, vitamin pills, good food and a warm place to sleep. If you want your bees to be truly healthy, you need to do the same for them. You already provide them with a dry place to live, food and supplements when they need it. Why did you do that? Because you want healthy hives. In doing so, you have created an unnatural situation that throws the whole process of natural selection out the window.


I think you may be thinking threadworm. Tapeworm is completely different. I know of only one person who had tapeworm as a child and teen and they said their life was hell til the cause was discovered.

Auto immune disorders,( not going to call them diseases) are for the most part, also difficult to live with.
I am a care giver for someone with MS...incurable, debilitating and yet, there are those who say they have managed to get this into remission long term- Terry Wahls, Sarah Ballantyne.
Completely different situation and a very difficult road to travel. Not going to kill you but a life filled with pain and diminishing ability is to say the least, unpleasant and not something I wish on anyone.
Not healthy and not really living a full and meaningful life.

Scurvy is caused by a lack of vitamin C, easily cured.
The causes of Anemia can be a lack of Iron or....high load of intestinal worms....eat a couple of cupfuls of organic pumpkin seed- problem solved,(personal experience).
Polio....c'mon, thats not living, that hell and does kill

Varroa has proved to be different and does kill,.....but some out there dont have this problem and I want what they have.
If they can do it then so can I, if I can just figure out how they are doing it.
Anything that must be medicated just to stay alive is not healthy, be it people or bees.


Natural selection is a different thing altogether and my philosophy is to leave that bit completely to the bees.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> True, after the 2 year trial i did try again with shaved down end bars, so yes, I took your advice already. Here's the rub though, my original trial used 33 mm end bars, as per Solomon Parker. Of the people claiming sucess with sc there's a bunch of them using 33 or bigger.
> 
> Are they all experienced beeks? Many not, and many if not most, do not know what they are doing different. Don't all use sc either.


Big sigh!!! ah well gotta start somewhere... hang on minute, you told me to shave them down to 31.5mm!!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

LOL, I probably said 31 or 32. Don't think i'm clever enough to get them within a 1/2 mm lol


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mischief said:


> Big sigh!!! ah well gotta start somewhere... hang on minute, you told me to shave them down to 31.5mm!!


I would caution of looking at 1.25 inch (32mm) frames as some sort of a medication replacement (add the small cell here too).
To be sure, I too have now most of my frames approaching 1.25 inch.
But this narrow spacing is not a medication replacement.

The point of 1.25 inch spacing is - to provide better survival setup for small colonies during the cold season.
Why is this important?

This is important because a part of medication-free management is running a sustainable nucleus operation.
One has to be able to sustain nucleus-side of the apiary and be able to absorb predictable loss (thanks to the replacement small units standing by).
This is where narrow frame spacing comes in.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good info GregV. Over the years of reading the experiences of others in different places, it seems to me that there is no "formula" for keeping TF bees that works for everyone. It's a psychological human condition, when we do something a certain way and it works for us, we assume we have hit the right formula, it's a human condition to look for a concrete set of rules we can follow. And think that if everybody else does that it will work for them also. In beekeeping this does not always apply due to different locations, and bee types. 

As examples of this is a certain management technique that has been touted as the be all and end all of swarm control. It worked well for the originator but not always for people in other locations. But the originator could never accept it didn't work for everybody, he would always insist they must not be doing it correctly.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> This is where narrow frame spacing comes in.


odd....
I thought is was because small cell comb is.... smaller, both in with and length 
what is the rationale of changing the beespace impacting hive survival? I haven't hurd of this



> I want to know what they did, what they are doing differently to others, do they have different locale, less hive density, are they all very experienced beeks, is it really just a matter of good genetics, why are they different, why are they


It likly a little of every thing... but how and were you keep bees seams to trump genetics
One common thread for most of them (long term sussefull/ self sustainable) is they graft from select stock not just split up what ever over winters.

Tarpys work is showing that grafted or swam queens are on advrage 50% better then E cells, but if left on to there devices the bees will often thin out the poorer ones, fine for the bees if left alone with a bunch of cells to chose from, not so good when the cells are distributed in to mateing nucs and the bees are forced to raize what ever hand they got delt
Sam Comfort stopped doing the above when he found he was getting poor queens from it, even inter cast ones.




> In the late 30's and early 40's the USDA Bee Culture Lab in Madison, Wisconsin started a program to determine which stocks available from queen breeders were best. Two-pound packages with queens were placed on combs on or about April 15. Brood production, population, and total honey production were monitored carefully. Some of these package colonies barely made winter stores, but a few did pretty well, producing 150 to 250 pounds above winter requirements. But one breeder consistently produced queens that developed colonies producing 250 to 450 pounds of honey over winter requirements.
> 
> Madison's Farrar, and other government beemen then spent time visiting and making observations of that particular queen breeder, and methodology developed in his queen-rearing operation. The conclusion was the stock was no better than available anywhere else. That's right! When we reared queens from that stock or from stock obtained from the poorly performing groups, we turned out very high-performance queens. So it wasn't the stock that was good -- it was the queen breeder. What stood out more than anything was his care and selection of each queen cell and queen every step of the way.
> 
> The basic information we got from that queen breeder was something we already knew -- to raise superior queens was mostly a matter of creating a superior environment. After all, there is no genetic difference between the workers and the larvae from which you graft your queens. Improve the environment. Improve the environment -- get that imprinted in your queen-rearing method every step of the way. Be sure there are always enough young bees and more than enough pollen and honey available. Always graft more cells than you will use or need so you can select only the best. Also, have more laying queens than you will use, and again -- select only the best.


Steve Tabor Breeding Super Bees 

both suggest that how you rear your queens impact the future colony. If it can dubble honey production, can it dubble mite resistance or outher thing we think of as a "trait"? 

there is quite a bit on the table to suggest serial spliting of dequeened hives after they drawn cells may lead to poorer performing queens, yet its a common subjected practice for TF to do so to get there numbers up.

further more you don't tend to change your stock unless you get selective about what reproduces, alive doesn't mean breeding stock... you will get queens better and worse then the one you rear from. (given a large enuff sample size) If you rear form your best queen, her worst offspring will be better then the best ofspring of your worst over wintered queens. make you increase form her off spring and requeen the bottom 2/3s of you hives... 
thats how you shift a trait in your stock, Kefuss layed it out well in soft bond 
splitting whats left alive permotes the advrage. 

my take on it is (aside from being a hard thing to do depending on your location), TF fails many do to poor beekeeping practices


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> odd....
> I thought is was because small cell comb is.... smaller, both in with and length
> what is the rationale of changing the beespace impacting hive survival? I haven't hurd of this


Now you have. 




> I find they winter better on narrow frames (1 1/4" on center instead....


http://www.bushfarms.com/beeswinter.htm

Google for more if wish.

I do foundationless natural cell and whatever they build - goes.
5.1-5.2 for me is the staple so far.
I have a feeling this is where it will stay.
Don't care to pursue the "small cell" in particular (not spending money of foundation for sure).


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

not sure were your going....
you wrote


> The point of 1.25 inch spacing is - to provide better survival setup for small colonies during the cold season.
> Why is this important?
> 
> This is important because a part of medication-free management is running a sustainable nucleus operation.


the link you posted said 


> I have tried overwintering nucs every winter since 2004. I can't claim to be good at it


The famous Nebraskan beekeeper with a few dozen hives is a small sample size, and he is saying his nucs don't over winter well (on 1.25").. 

as a counter point(I was looking more for a link to a per reviewed study, but sence we are siting internet famous beekeeprs, not data) Mike Palmers 100' of nucs seem to do very well with standard frame spacing... despite being 2 full plant hardness zones colder. 

BTW... In lite of resent events I should say this
you and I butt heads, have for a bit...
Please take my sparing as a sine of respect. I chose to to endgade you for the sake of stimulating debate... not because I think I will some how be the winner of internet beekeeping... thats a loosing fight. 
you are well researched beyond your years of experience, and respond intelligently, that makes changeling your positions much more insteringing... 

So.... no bull, no insult meant with this next question

What has your experience been on survival rates with 1.25"? how many hives did you over winter on 1.25 in 2017?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> ....
> What has your experience been on survival rates with 1.25"? how many hives did you over winter on 1.25 in 2017?


I am about 90% of 1.25 now.

Granted I am a really heartless beehaver (as you know), the last year my survival was 2 out of 11 (less than 20%).
Those only two survivors made it in tiny 4-5 frame clusters on 1.25 frames (my own tall frames, to clarify); and in temp plywood hives too (this is South WI). These survivors originated from a trusted TF beekeeper and have feral sources.

And so, sending 13 units into the winter (as of two weeks ago, to be sure; donno how many now, could be fewer).
I got at least 8 units originating from feral sources now (the others are various random swarms, very likely commercial/package puppies).

My point is this - I very much anticipate that the survivors in 2018/2019 will be those smaller clusters again (these are originating from feral sources that I could acquire).
And so - I want to make my setup such that to make small cluster wintering a bit more successful (narrow comb spacing is one such parameter). Notice, I am not talking of a small cell - I don't care of any special cell. Up to my bees to regulate the cell size.

Speaking of tossing data around - I don't care much for the data anymore.
I can Google very well if have to (part of my job).

So here is just one (totally independent of MB) observation of the natural comb spacing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENodvhG0hdg&t=5s
Jump to 2:16 and observe - 33.2 mm natural spacing by totally commercial bees run on a foundation.
(32mm ~ 1.25inch).
Sorry, non-English again. 
But it is all in front of you if willing to observe.

PS: sorry for repeating myself - if you question my experience, you are free to do so (my little resume is in my signature);
I am simply re-learning this entire beekeeping thing from scratch again. 
Call me a newbee if wish since I am in very many ways.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> So here is just one (totally independent of MB) observation of the natural comb spacing.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENodvhG0hdg&t=5s
> Jump to 2:16 and observe - 33.2 mm natural spacing by totally commercial bees run on a foundation.
> (32mm ~ 1.25inch).
> ...


OK, let me share more.
Here is resource in Russian of a study done yet in 1940s regarding the comb spacing (which corresponds to narrow frames).
They tested 8mm spacing vs. the standard control of 12mm spacing.

Plug the page into Google auto-translate if interested.

http://www.pchelovod.com.ua/articles/sps/article118.htm

A quick resume:
8mm spacing was found to definitely benefit the small clusters (1 kilo/2-3lbs) for the spring buildup.
8mm spacing was still beneficial, but less so to the clusters of 1.5 kilos/3-4lbs.
8mm spacing was only marginally beneficial and actually was causing excessive swarming of the larger clusters.
This same 8mm spacing was found to be counter-beneficial starting the mid-summer and into the fall as the colonies grew in size (by causing excessive swarming).
The graphs represent the three groups tested (Group I - small clusters; Group II - medium clusters; Group III - large clusters).
The graphs represent the dynamics of the colony development in May/June in Kemerovo region of Russia (Southern Siberia location).
This case should represent about April/May time frame for my current location.

Overall, if you do small clusters (which I do), 1.25 inch should benefit you.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Sorry can't read Russian, what is the 8 mm space? Comb face to comb face?

Interesting the comment about swarming. I use 33 mm end bars in all my hives, years ago used to use 35. I definately have more swarming issues nowadays.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> OK, let me share more.


now your playing the game right, we can debate a study with out it being personal

sooo


> Overall, if you do small clusters (which I do), 1.25 inch should benefit you.


only if you do small cell/ maby foundation less... not over all in the least
from the study
_By the end of the experiment (June 4), families of the experimental group with a street of 8.5–9 mm grew brood on average by 43% more families of the control group._
I gather by "street" they mean bee space. "standard" spacing/foundation gives us a 3/8 bee space that's 9.52mm
while you keep saying 8mm... the link says
_In the experimental group of 20 families, the street was reduced to 8.5–9 mm_



> The point of 1.25 inch spacing is - to provide better survival setup for small colonies during the cold season.


the study dosn't back up your hypothesizes that smaler spacing was better for overwintering, The study came to the consultion that 15mm was better
and that over all "standard" 12mm spaceing was best 
_According to our experiments and the observations of many practicing beekeepers, a small street, reduced to 8.5–9 mm, is effective for families that are lagging behind in development, and for medium-sized and strong families, besides the short period after the bees from the winterizer, it should be left 12 mm._
yess the tighter spacing helped with spring build up, but that wan't the statment you made
I would argue if anything, its suggesting the standard 3/8" is too small and we should be looking at 15/32" 


I appreciate you being strait forward on your losses, that is what I had remembered, but couldn't find the thread.

You have been giving a lot of overwintering advice lately. Maby a newer beekeeper taking 80% loses should not be giveing that advice to other new beekeepers. 

that being said I am very interested in hearing about your losses come spring and what efect shifting your spacing had. Did those 2 hives live do the gentnics, the spaceing, the fact that they were small and had a lower mite load, etc.... the results should be instering .



> don't care much for the data anymore


that seams to be a trend with TF failure... It not a value stament, just an observation, Pilots crash planes bleaving they are right and there instruments must be wrong...
As my sig says the easiest person to fool is your self.... and boy did I fool my self in my early days....still do I am sure.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

msl said:


> You have been giving a lot of overwintering advice lately. Maby a newer beekeeper taking 80% loses should not be giveing that advice to other new beekeepers.


Thing about that though, he is straight up honest. Which makes his data reliable, because if whatever he does fails he will say so. To me anyway, that makes him someone I can learn from.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I don't disagree, witch is why I choose to engage him instead of ignore...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Nothing wrong with experimenting! There is a serious problem with attributing results though, when many parameters are altered at the same time. The person can come to conclusions and defend them like a hero but unless they can be reproduced under controlled conditions they are going to be a hard sell to many people.

I played a bit with close frame spacing but I found it fell short on ease of working with the hives. Fusion_power had some good thoughts on narrow frame spacing and dadant depth frames in regard to the need for absolutely square and twist free frame and foundation construction. Otherwise the minimal bee space can easily lead to bridging in spots. 

The theory about quicker spring build up, due to a given amount of bees being able to cover more brood, appears to be sound. I could probably benefit from that aspect but it is easier for me to raise a few more colonies than contend with assorted width and spacing of frames. Putting the bees to bed with good mite control and plenty of stores gives me excellent wintering.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> Comb face to comb face?


Correct.

1.25 inch center to center does about the same effect.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> You have been giving a lot of overwintering advice lately. Maby a newer beekeeper taking 80% loses should not be giveing that advice to other new beekeepers.


OK, according to my signature (as I mentioned) I have been doing this for 13 years total.
So frankly I can give lots of advice if I care to do it.

But yes, I am an honest newbee in what I am trying to do now.
Otherwise, I became bored with the standard beekeeping lots of year ago. 
Well, until now again.

If I did what most everyone does, I'd have 80-90% survival. 
But why do it? Commercial honey is cheap as it is to spend the time.

Clean eco-products, on the other hand (especially the perga) is virtually non-existent.
Well, have to keep your own bees and do it cleanly. 
So here we go again.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> the study dosn't back up your hypothesizes that smaler spacing was better for overwintering, The study came to the consultion that 15mm was better and that over all "standard" 12mm spaceing was best .


OK, few points

- they keep saying 8.5-9mm in the text; the graphs are saying 8.5mm; in the same text they refer to another study where they used 8mm with success - in our case 1.25inch (32mm) results in something around 8mm "streets" and this is what I use in this context;

- in addition, it is virtually impossible to stay 8mm anyway as the propolise and imperfections push the frames apart - so just shoot for 8mm and it will work fine

- correct - they state that 12mm (or even 15mm) *overall* maybe better direction in the context of 1)keeping only the strong families; 2)minimizing the labor; 3)maximizing the honey output; 4)large industrial beekeeping operation 5)nucleus operation in post-WWII was largely non-existent, not understood and not a priority (small colonies were to be terminated/consolidated as bad thing).

- well, those priorities are NOT my priorities and I don't care of their *overall *recommendations that targeted large, state-run beekeeping yards

- however, I do appreciate their findings regarding the so-called weak colonies where the 8mm spacing is beneficial (particularly for the spring build up, but also mid-summer due to the new nucs - obviously in the current context) 

- my surviving bees are doing so primarily due to the genetics and secondarily due to other factors (the hive configuration, etc)


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> OK, according to my signature (as I mentioned) I have been doing this for 13 years total.


my bad, you old sig was somthing like "10 years dads smoker boy, Now I am the dad" led me to assume your involvement in the 1st 10 was limited.



> in our case 1.25inch (32mm) results in something around 8mm "streets" and this is what I use in this context;


_
From Bushs web site
According to Baudoux (note this is the thickness of the comb itself and not the spacing of the comb on centers
Cell Size Comb width
5.555 mm 22.60 mm
5.375 mm 22.20 mm
5.210 mm 21.80 mm
5.060 mm 21.40 mm
4.925 mm 21.00 mm
4.805 mm 20.60 mm
4.700 mm 20.20 mm
ABC XYZ of Bee Culture 1945 edition Pg 126
_ 



> 5.1-5.2 for me is the staple so far


21.8mm+8mm= 29.8mm, so you likly closer to 10mm streets, food for thought.

Don't get me wrong, if your using comb that is smaller/thiner it makes sense to shave down the end bars to provide proper bee space. and you have presented an argument for tigher frame spaceing for spring build up in weak hives..

how ever you haven't made a case that less then ideal bee space improves wintering

I didn't see it in the study, But you have a lot of knowledge on russtion beekeeping-what foundation size were the bees on... and why was 12mm "standard"in the area/time when our "standard" is 9.52mm


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> my bad, you old sig was somthing like "10 years dads smoker boy, Now I am the dad" led me to assume your involvement in the 1st 10 was limited.


I was doing whatever I was told to do - pretty much anything one can do around the yard I have done (except being the apiary manager - my Dad).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> ....
> I didn't see it in the study, But you have a lot of knowledge on russtion beekeeping-what foundation size were the bees on... and why was 12mm "standard"in the area/time when our "standard" is 9.52mm


OK, common Russian AMM bee variations are rather large as it is, compared to the other variants (Google will confirm).
So the Western standards are not natural fit for the northern variants of AMM (too small).
That, combined with the idea of "bigger bee is better for big honey harvests" results in 12mm and even 15mm "streets".

Foundation of 5.4mm is considered a "standard" according to this - http://docs.cntd.ru/document/1200101102
But I read of 5.6mm foundation being sold commonly too.

Basically, the idea of "bigger bee is better bee" has been cultivated for a very long time and still stands.
Not that I agree with the idea either - those are commercial people that are talking now (formerly the state set the BIG goals that required a big bee per the state ideology).

Here why I have problems with this so called "TF standard" of 4.9 mm foundation considered a medication replacement. 

The Primorski bees shipped to the US for the resistant bee program have always lived on 5.4 foundation and never knew anything smaller (mb bigger). 4.9mm is not a natural fit for the Russians or AMM (I don't care if that fits bees in Arizona or New Mexico - those are smaller bees).
So, my bees can build whatever the heck they want - 5.1-5.2mm is what they have been building so far, after the two summer observations. I also actively destroy the combs by design (C & S) and force them to rebuild this way.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> 21.8mm+8mm= 29.8mm, so you likly closer to 10mm streets, food for thought.


Mb yes, mb no.
I already did this math long ago and whatever 1.25 produces is fine for me.
I don't care to chase down the millimeters since nothing is ever perfect.
1.25 does a good compromise in many ways as for me.

I do all my own equipment and started with 1.5 inch bars originally.
Well, after I started having issues with double-combing on 1.5 inch bars and researched around - 1.25 bars seemed a good resolution and beneficial setup for the nucs anyway. 
1.25 bars are technologically simple to do and maintain and what I do now.
I also like to think in halves and quarters (but not in 8ths or the millimeters if I can help it now days).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> how ever you haven't made a case that less then ideal bee space improves wintering


This one is simple though - mid-winter brood patches are very critical for a small cluster.
Every bee maybe counted - literally.
If they try to produce a little clutch of brood in January just to stay afloat, every possible factor should be in their favor (including the tight spacing).

So again, if you want to successfully winter small clusters - make it your priority and implement.
My priority is to successfully maintain small clusters free from medication.
Why? Because I see this as a sustainable way forward.
So my ideal setups are decided by my priorities and I want them to work for me.

With large clusters none of this matters - different priorities and management.
But these are NOT my priorities.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I have measured up wild comb ( wild hives I have removed ) in my country, bee breeds italian, carniolan, and british AMM. Core broodnest is almost invariably 5.1 to 5.3. I have almost never found anything at 4.9, the only time there will be anything at that size is where 2 combs met and the bees had to fiddle things a bit to make it fit, or similar.


A century or so ago when comb foundation was first invented, they were well aware that cell size varies throughout the hive, a size for brood, a size in the honey storage area, etc. So the problem was making a size that the bees would feel OK using throughout the hive, plus there was a debate about the ideal sized bee. Experiments were done and indicated bigger bees were better, in terms of honey production. Wether the controls and other scientific requirements for a properly run experiment were vigorously followed I don't know, but in any case they were convinced enough to decide on a size around 5.4 as a standard, although even now different manufacturers will vary a bit. Got to bear in mind also that varroa had not been introduced to our bees at that time so wasn't a factor.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> This one is simple though - mid-winter brood patches are very critical for a small cluster.
> Every bee maybe counted - literally.
> If they try to produce a little clutch of brood in January just to stay afloat, every possible factor should be in their favor (including the tight spacing)


I get that, point was thats not what the study found.. the effect was in the spring.

spot on OT... 
foundation is a manipulation, the question is not what is "natural", its what is best for your goles 

on the sall colony frount, My top bars are 1 and 5/16" ( ie the line between 1.25 and 1.375) It has worked well for me last winter I had 2 nucs over winter on 3 combs bees/feed (+1 empty comb past the honey for insulation)... that's a 2.2 or so deep frame equivalent. They needed feed come spring, badly but made it threw the winter


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> I get that, point was thats not what the study found.. the effect was in the spring.


OK, they found the such effect *for them* in spring (in cold Siberia using the northern variant of AMM - which totally shuts down brooding until April/May in that region).

So - they found the benefit for tight spacing for small colonies *when the brood is being cared for in cold weather.*
See that? 
That is the very essence of their finding.
Spring is less important; brood incubation during unstable/cold weather - that is what important.

Which for *me* means anytime in my particular winter - possible in December/January even; more likely in February/March, etc.
Which means this positively affects *my wintering as a whole*.
See that?

Need to switch the contexts from theirs to ours. 
From their findings to our practical application.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

GregV said:


> OK, common Russian AMM bee variations are rather large as it is, compared to the other variants (Google will confirm).
> So the Western standards are not natural fit for the northern variants of AMM (too small).
> That, combined with the idea of "bigger bee is better for big honey harvests" results in 12mm and even 15mm "streets".
> 
> ...


Dee Lusby talks about latitude needing to be taken into account when looking at SC.
Is it possible that These Russian bees ARE S.C. according to their own latitude?...and yours are too?
I dont pretend to understand how or why this might be important and need to see what my latitude is and what she says about cell size again.
Keep talking....I'm listening


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> I have measured up wild comb ( wild hives I have removed ) in my country, bee breeds italian, carniolan, and british AMM. Core broodnest is almost invariably 5.1 to 5.3. I have almost never found anything at 4.9, the only time there will be anything at that size is where 2 combs met and the bees had to fiddle things a bit to make it fit, or similar.
> 
> 
> A century or so ago when comb foundation was first invented, they were well aware that cell size varies throughout the hive, a size for brood, a size in the honey storage area, etc. So the problem was making a size that the bees would feel OK using throughout the hive, plus there was a debate about the ideal sized bee. Experiments were done and indicated bigger bees were better, in terms of honey production. Wether the controls and other scientific requirements for a properly run experiment were vigorously followed I don't know, but in any case they were convinced enough to decide on a size around 5.4 as a standard, although even now different manufacturers will vary a bit. Got to bear in mind also that varroa had not been introduced to our bees at that time so wasn't a factor.


Are these really wild bees or beekeeper escapees though?
In our country, I would naturally assume they are escapees and if so, would they not need time to work out what they really prefer?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The current situation is that they will pretty much all be escaped domestic swarms. 

However I started doing this when I was a schoolkid, almost 50 years ago and long before varroa, plenty of long term feral hives then and in fact most likely they outnumbered managed hives. 

Unfortunately when varroa arrived, their natural comb did not save them.

Another thing to consider Mischief, is that I kept small cell bees continously for 2 years. Nobody could say they were not regressed. But when I allowed them to build natural comb, they immediately upsized, and I was surprised that some of them went straight to 5.5 core broodnest, even bigger than the 5.4 foundation I use. 


Re Dees latitude vs size thing, it is not saying that a bigger size equals small cell in some locations, she thinks 4.9 applies everywhere. Her latitude map is what she thinks the natural cell size is in certain areas of the world. I have my doubts about the accuracy I do not know how she determined it. It is wrong about NZ, and also does not allow for variations in bee breeds, I think she has come up with some formula that determines what she thinks the natural size would be, and then applied that across the globe.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Thanks for that. Food for thought.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

mischief said:


> Are these really wild bees or beekeeper escapees though?
> In our country, I would naturally assume they are escapees and if so, would they not need time to work out what they really prefer?


Even in Europe, any claim of "wild bees" is highly suspect, as bees have been kept by humans for so long that their genetics are predominantly those of escapees.

FWIW, I've never used foundation and my bees have always built what they wanted - cell size does vary a little (even across the same comb) and appears to be in the 4.9 to 5.1 range. This I've 'measured' (for curiosity) with a 5mm twist drill - sometimes it's a sloppy fit, sometimes it's slightly too large to be inserted. That's about as much as I want to know or need to know - as it's something the bees deal with, and not me.

Frame spacing I've played around with, with the aim of minimising attachments - 34mm is better than 35 certainly, and I keep meaning to reduce this a tad further. Apart from the attachment issue - which only ever occurs at or near the top - I'm not sure it's that critical, as the bees extend cell lengths near the top of the combs to reduce the inter-comb gap in that area to one bee-space anyway. Further down the comb it becomes two-bee-spaces, such that the inter-comb gallery has a shape rather like two saucers placed rim to rim.

Although I do have hundreds of Hoffman frames still on site, I'm gradually moving over to frame-spacing by courtesy of small screws. As well as providing a means of adjustment, these don't suffer from propolis build-up like the Hoffmans, and bees getting squashed between the frames as they're closed-up has now become a thing of the past.
LJ


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

little_john said:


> FWIW, I've never used foundation and my bees have always built what they wanted - cell size does vary a little (even across the same comb) and appears to be in the 4.9 to 5.1 range. This I've 'measured' (for curiosity) with a 5mm twist drill - sometimes it's a sloppy fit, sometimes it's slightly too large to be inserted.


 Why not make it 10 times more accurate with a measuring tape/ruler? 

10 cells in a diagonal row 

my bees building free comb make it 5,3mm-5,4mm


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Why not make it 10 times more accurate with a measuring tape/ruler?
> 
> 10 cells in a diagonal row
> 
> my bees building free comb make it 5,3mm-5,4mm


Quite simply because I have no need to know this.  

I was just a little curious, that's all. Why would I want to know accurately what their cell size is ? Knowing that isn't going to change anything - they build what they want to build - it's their choice, after all. 
LJ


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

If there truly are docile, pms resistant Africanized honey bees in Puerto Rico, I’d sure be curious about 1) what the cell size in the brood area is and 2) how long the pupae cells are capped.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mischief said:


> Dee Lusby talks about latitude needing to be taken into account when looking at SC.
> Is it possible that These Russian bees ARE S.C. according to their own latitude?...and yours are too?
> I dont pretend to understand how or why this might be important and need to see what my latitude is and what she says about cell size again.
> Keep talking....I'm listening


Do understand that the latitude is *only very loosely *has to do with this.
The local conditions are very much shaped by lots of other factors where the latitude only explains the theoretically possible maximum radiation due to the Sun angles over the horizon (one parameter in, like, hundreds).

Just one example for you - the winter in British Isle is much milder than here in WI, USA. 
This totally contradicts the latitudes. 
They are up north; we are down south (by a lot).
Sure - that all about the oceanic effects and air mass movements.

Back to the bees - the Russians are not S.C. 
They have never been S.C. (standard S.C. being 4.9).
5.2mm is their normal sell size if left alone.

However, the bees (when left alone) keep reusing the same comb for many years (effectively turning it into SC).
I don't know why people ignore this fact.
Absolutely nothing wrong with totally black old combs being reused for 20-30 years (outside of chemical pollution - the modern factor).
The continuous turning over the combs is just a modern, industrialized approach.
Even my Dad taught me that black combs are bad because the bees become smaller in the old, black combs.
Small bee is bad; big bee is good - that's my Dad talking (well, I disagree with my Dad; natural, normal bee is good - either big or small, whatever it is).

It was not that way before in pre-industrial times.

PS: OK, I am trying to turn my own combs only to force the regression to the natural size (whatever it happens to be)
this winter I will go around and measure a sample of my combs in more systemic way to see what I my numbers (now that some of the combs are bee-free).


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

GregV said:


> Absolutely nothing wrong with totally black old combs being reused for 20-30 years (outside of chemical pollution - the modern factor).
> The continuous turning over the combs is just a modern, industrialized approach.
> It was not that way before.


I am less sure about this. It is my understanding that the thing that makes the brood comb turn black is the wastes excreted by the developing larvae. Once the comb reaches its full ability to absorb those wastes…much less than twenty to thirty years…… they become toxic.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> ..Re Dees latitude vs size thing, it is not saying that a bigger size equals small cell in some locations, *she thinks 4.9 applies everywhere.*...


I disagree with this idea.
I think this generated more harm than good with pushing this ideas around.
In fact, a bee nest is a collection of various cells of various sizes created to meet different needs (season dependent too).
Even straight frames are messing up the colony ecosystem. 
The combs are naturally curved for a reason too.
It is just very unpractical to have curved frames - a bit too much to ask of the keeper.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

in nature combs would be far less old... the hive dies out, the wax mouths come in

As for age.... last winter I got to chery pick threw a long abandoned commercial yard... the best of what I took made lusbys hives look pristine lol...
owner beekeper died, no one picked up the torch... i found one colony alive in what appeared to be a stack of empty deeps at the time...
I have bees liveing on Aluminum foundation....anyone want to guess how old those combs are?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> in nature combs would be far less old... the hive dies out, the wax mouths come in


I would not say "would be".
Could be - yes.
Pretty much anything "could be".

Some of them feral bees have been nesting the same place for 10-20-more years non-stop.
Ready combs are precious for the bees too (no matter how old and how black; for as long as the cells are within ergonomic margins of a bee - it works).
Examples are plenty.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

beemandan said:


> I am less sure about this. It is my understanding that the thing that makes the brood comb turn black is the wastes excreted by the developing larvae. Once the comb reaches its full ability to absorb those wastes…much less than twenty to thirty years…… they become toxic.


Well, it has been documented many times of feral bees nesting non-stop in the same exact place for tens of years (Google will not let me lie).
I don't know what exactly triggers the bees to destroy and rebuild existing combs (if left alone), but general ergonomic dimensions of a cell come to mind.
Pretty much if a worker cell is down to, say, 4.5mm due to the cocoon build-up - it is probably a time for a total rebuild.

I do not know if bees sense toxicity build-up; but the physical dimensions of the cells - that is something the bees are very well aware of.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Even in Europe, any claim of "wild bees" is highly suspect, ...LJ


In general this would be correct.

However, in Russia at least, there are protected areas around populations of truly wild bees (pretty sure the degree of "wildness" has been confirmed genetically).
Not going Goggle now to confirm; but I did read on the subject quite a bit not long ago.

So yes - the wild AMMs do exist.
There is even a local industry (historic craft, in fact) where people harvest wild honey in some regions from the bee trees.
Those bee trees are of high value and are being owned and protected by the honey gatherers. 
The honey sells for $$$$$.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV said:


> In general this would be correct.
> 
> However, in Russia at least ...


I should have been clearer - by 'Europe' I really meant developed countries of the European Union - so that's essentially Western Europe. Although western areas of Russia are indeed in Europe, with the majority of it's land mass in Asia, most people here refer to 'Russia' as being a separate entity - so there's 'Europe' and there's 'Russia'. Technically not correct, but that's what we do. This perception has it's origins dating back to the days of the USSR. I don't think many of us have yet fully adjusted to the breakaway USSR states as being in 'Europe' - although they certainly are now. 
LJ


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> it has been documented many times of feral bees nesting non-stop in the same exact place for tens of years


I would love a link, I am sure there are some out some outliers, but we are talking advrages 
Seeley ET AL 2017 suggests other wise


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That chart is probably correct, however it is post varroa. Pre varroa as memory serves once a wild colony established somewhere they tended to be permanent. Course, this could have been different in locations with hard winters or long dearths or such.

And yes, I am well aware of the issue of swarms replacing deadouts and fooling everybody, there is probably an element of that also.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

What about the theory that pre varoa the average lifespan of a colony was 7 years and then failure mostly to due to failure to re queen, and then add varoa
Johno


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> I would love a link,...


I don't even need to Google.
People already have done the work that I just have been re-using.

All credits to one of my favorite, go-to sites - Dave Cushman:



> Once a colony had survived the first winter, I believe they would have lived for some time. I'm guessing that losses in all bar the most severe winters were very low, probably 5% or less. *Even at 5% that means a colony lives 20 years on average and my guess is that the life of some natural colonies could easily have been in excess of 50 years. *I know the modern view is that combs should be changed regularly for health reasons, but I have seen some very old wild combs. I suspect they are much better insulators than new comb and I have seen signs of bees chewing and rebuild them, presumably because the cells get smaller with each cocoon. I have also seen evidence of colonies in buildings move to one side and build new combs, allowing wax moth to destroy the vacated comb, so they can move back again at a later date, although this would be difficult in a tree cavity.


http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/natbeenest.html

But look, even in your own picture - there are colonies that have been going non-stop 4-5 years (under the Varroa, mind you).
Surely some of these are **still** going (this is almost 2019, btw) that will add up to 7-8 years now.
I would seriously check with T. Seeley about the current status of that exact sample.

Btw, brood nest comb of 5 years of non-stop usage already has significant cocoon build-up to ignore the sell wall thickness.
Typical way of measuring the cells somehow assumes the near-zero thick walls. 
Well, I have to smile about that.

So, on one hand I do not appreciate standardization (be it up or down).
Moreover, the variety of cells in a given colony is there by evolutionary design and is needed for reasons not understood (but I can theorize that a wide range of bee sizes in the same given colony is, in fact, beneficial - having big, and medium, and small bees at once is a good thing somehow; this is how they operate).

I really like this picture as representative:







Source: https://resistantbees.com/blog/?page_id=1791


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> The current situation is that they will pretty much all be escaped domestic swarms.
> 
> However I started doing this when I was a schoolkid, almost 50 years ago and long before varroa, plenty of long term feral hives then and in fact most likely they outnumbered managed hives.
> 
> ...


I had to think about this, long and hard.
To be honest, I was shocked that they would have done this cos it is the exact opposite of everything I have read and as well as that, is the opposite of what my own bees did in their first year- I only put in starter strips with the odd foundationless for them to build out on.
The largest cell size I measured with my caliphers was a honey frame that had some that were 7.1mm cell size and on the other side of the frame, I thought they had made SC cos it looked so much smaller, but turned out to be 5.1, to say I was disappointed would be an understatement!
I think there is so much we just dont know...or perhaps I should be saying, I dont.

Just had my legal AFB check done today and got the all clear.
They now only have the Mann Lake 4.95mm plastic frames that I waxed up and the new ones that went in a couple of weeks ago, were beautiful, not fully built out but already had a real nice pattern of eggs in them, so I am quietly excited.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I tried some of the Mann Lake PF100 plastic with the 4.95mm size and was not impressed with the result. They would get built out with patches about 3 inches of decent cells then the cells would start to lean out like they were being crowded, then there would be a ridge three or four cells wide with all kinds of irregular cells till they got started again following the embossed pattern. My interpretation was that the close spacing was hurting the bees game.

Barry, (I believe the previous owner of this forum) posted similar results, seeing up to 20% wasted space from the irregular ridges.

My bees definitely seem to have a lot of Carniolan traits and I am in growing zone 4 - 4b so that could be an influence. They build fine on the standard size plastic foundation.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> That chart is probably correct, however it is post varroa. Pre varroa as memory serves once a wild colony established somewhere they tended to be permanen


seeley 1978 sujests outher wize, same neck of the woods, pre mite.
from the 2017 abstract
_Remarkably, the suite of colony life-history traits found in the 2010s (with V. destructor) matches that found in the 1970s (without V. destructor)_

from the Dissuction 

_Table III summarizes the findings reported here for 2010–2016 and those reported previously (Seeley 1978) for 1974–1977. The two sets of findings are strikingly similar even though they were made ca. 20 years before and ca. 20 years after the arrival of V. destructor. Both sets of results show that most newly founded colonies and established colonies survive summers, but that only ca. 26% of founder colonies and ca. 82% of established colonies survive winters. Both sets of results also show that founder colonies rarely change queens/produce swarms, but that established colonies are likely to do so (p = 0.96 for 1970s and p = 0.87 for 2010s). Furthermore, the 1970s and 2010s results yield almost identical estimates of mean colony lifespan: 2.1 and 2.2 years for all colonies and 5.6 and 6.2 years for established colonies. Evidently, the wild colonies living near Ithaca have essentially the same suite of life-history traits in 2010s as in 1970s: _

Seeleys work above, and in VILLA ET AL 2008 says that ferals are living LONGER once they adapted to Varroa !!!!!!!

_Before the arrival of varroa mites, the estimate for colony survival was 14 mo (No-Varroa, Table 1). 
Mortality rates increased starting in 1993 (after the detection of varroa mites in the immediate area in 1992) and the survival decreased to 10 mo (Early-Varroa, Table 1). 
The colonies within the period 1997-2005 had an estimated survival of 27 mo (Late-Varroa, Table 1)._
Changes in Honey Bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Colony Swarming and Survival Pre- and Postarrival of Varroa destructor (Mesostigmata: Varroidae) in Louisiana https://pubag.nal.usda.gov/pubag/downloadPDF.xhtml?id=27253&content=PDF

A little closer to home for you OT, bit diffrent results for a different climate
https://www.researchgate.net/profil..._mellifera/links/0912f5141a60b6a6ad000000.pdf



> my guess is that the life of some natural colonies could easily have been in excess of 50 years.


its great to guess with out any data, put it on you web site and get quoted on the internet...
But the guess is not well thought out.

Anyone who has reared queens knows they all don't return.. a hive swarming for 50 year and haveing 100% return rate? A bit far fetched in my book. 
the immortal bee tree seems to be a myth, good nest sites are quickly occupied. 
(Paraphrasing Michel Bush) Beehives are like vampires in the teen movies, technically immortal, but they die regularly

is there an outlyer now and again, sure... some people live 110+ years, but thats not the "normal"


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> its great to guess with out any data, put it on you web site and get quoted on the internet...
> But the guess is not well thought out.


Look, I have much respect for Dave Cushman.
Importantly - he had no interest in money or career while doing what he did.
Observation and experience are no less important than number generation (both should be complementing each other, not cancelling each other).
I would NOT dismiss these, even though the current trends maybe looking in other directions - this is what they are - trends.

(I can generate lots of numbers really, really quickly - my job; I can make those number look reasonable too - so to please the bosses and/or my audience).

Let us get back to the context again - the point I am trying to get across is this:

1) it is NOT important IF the original founder bees have been living in the same cavity for 50 years non-stop
2) it is, however, important that the same *combs have been reused non-stop for long time* until it became un-usable and rebuilt by the bees themselves 
3) if several colonies rotated in and out of the cavity - is not that relevant
4) what is relevant - if the bees keep the presence and the same old black (and SC, due to the build-up) are being used

Believe me or not, up to you.
In the time and place where I started my beekeeping experience, the commercial foundation was, in fact, not widely available.
Many old-timers did reuse their combs forever and ever and those old comb were basically like tar (thick walled/tiny cells).
It worked fine for them.
Most places were actually remote because the dirt roads were crappy and no-one had transportation anyway (except for the very slow horse-buggy technology).

My Dad, on the other hand, was a "progressive" village school teacher and also had a car.
We drove a distance to the only bee supply store in the area once a year and he did purchase that 5.4mm foundation (I assume the size) and so he raised the "large" bees on it.
Most all other beekeepers in the area did not have much access to the foundation.
So here you go - there was *smaller cell*usage in practice. 
No one at the time and place did know or care to measure the cell, of cause.
But what is important, again, this was not standard 4.9mm for everything and anything. 
Instead, it was more of a assortment of the cells (which normally occurs if the combs left in place for, say, 10 years).


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

msl said:


> seeley 1978 sujests outher wize, same neck of the woods, pre mite.


Australia has deserts and kangaroos, NZ got rainforests and kiwi birds. From the other side of the world may seem like same neck of the woods, but not quite when you are over here.


Did Seeley specifically reference NZ somewhere, and if so what were his sources?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

greg You have switched your argument from the longevity of feral hives to some sort of small cell argument, I think maby your missing the role of wax moths in the wild, and the behavior of feral colonys laying in newer wax and older comb becoming honey storage

OT I meant Seeley 78 and 17 was the same site, then I included the Aus study as a point on regional differences... (bees lived longer)
ya i get what your saying about the difrent climates... but at least it's on you side of the equator vs the outher studys :lpf:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> greg You have switched your argument from the longevity of feral hives to some sort of small cell argument, I think maby your missing the role of wax moths in the wild, and the behavior of feral colonys laying in newer wax and older comb becoming honey storage


No, I am not missing the role of the wax moth - the issue is for as long the cavity occupied by bees (including quick enough re-entry by a new swarm to replace the dead-out), the wax moth are not usually an issue. As long as the old comb are in protective custody (however long and by whatever bees) - the combs will stay in use. Be it 10-20 years - whatever.

Old combs do NOT just become honey storage as the old comb stay positioned exactly where they have been build.
The brood combs remain to be the brood comb (until destroyed) and the honey combs remain to be the honey combs as they are positioned above the brood combs (until destroyed). 
You see, the combs don't jump around.
As well bees are not capable of pushing the existing old combs *away *from the entrance so to replace them (into the honey section of a long hive, for example).

Function and usage of the combs (in static, feral setting) are pretty much set with respect to the entrance and hardly move anymore (until destroyed).
Honey is above and the brood is below and they do not switch around.
Here is my own frame as a classic demo of that:








I did not switch my argument; I did go on a tangent to clarify few things.
Still, I did not change any of my standings and they are listed above.
In time I may evolve and adapt, but that will be a consistent, gradual process I would hope.
So, here you go.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

crofter said:


> I tried some of the Mann Lake PF100 plastic with the 4.95mm size and was not impressed with the result. They would get built out with patches about 3 inches of decent cells then the cells would start to lean out like they were being crowded, then there would be a ridge three or four cells wide with all kinds of irregular cells till they got started again following the embossed pattern. My interpretation was that the close spacing was hurting the bees game.
> 
> Barry, (I believe the previous owner of this forum) posted similar results, seeing up to 20% wasted space from the irregular ridges.
> 
> My bees definitely seem to have a lot of Carniolan traits and I am in growing zone 4 - 4b so that could be an influence. They build fine on the standard size plastic foundation.


Hi Frank,
I had the same trouble with foundationless frames.
I had already read that plastic frames needed to be well waxed before the bees behaved with them, so I spent ages waxing them with melted down foundation- I didnt have anything else to use.
The only ones that were not built out properly, were the rush jobbies that got put in late in the season, probably a bit too late so they have quite sparse comb on them.
This spring, I had to take those ones out and rewax them as it appears that the bees stole the wax that was on them and used them elsewhere.
The fresh ones that I just put in a little over a week ago, still only have comb halfway down the frame but already have eggs in them

I think the trick with plastic frames is to really wax them up then go back and do them again, making sure all the 'lines' of the cell forms are heavy with wax.
The other thing I did to my frames, was to drill holes in the top corners as well as three evenly spaced across the top, just in case they wanted them there. Most of them got filled up with wax, but quite afew actually got left as is and were used.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

> I tried some of the Mann Lake PF100 plastic with the 4.95mm size and was not impressed with the result.





mischief said:


> Hi Frank, I had the same trouble with foundationless frames...........


It has been documented - you do not want to be taking standardized, large-cell, commercial bee (based off 5.4mm) and forcing them to build standard small-cell foundation (4.9mm).
This is too much of a jump down, does not allow any mid-way compromising for gradual regression, and hence does not work well, if at all.
No surprises here. 
Google has the details.

But also, like I have been saying, 4.9mm is an artificial standard and may just not be right for your particular bees anyway (depending their origins).
Just because someone in Arizona has *forced* their theory work on their particular bees (likely tainted with smaller AHBs - which helped), this is not a rule to be followed for beekeepers in colder regions.
Colder region bees have evolved to be larger for their own reasons.
Better suited for the cold, larger Russian mutts just well stay larger and still can be medication-free.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

What you say is probably correct, but I have no way of knowing what is right and what is not. 
All I could do was decide who's example I was going to follow basing this on what I could see was the ideal way of keeping bees and that goal was treatment free.
Unfortunately there doesnt appear to be anyone here who is, or they are keeping very quiet about it and just getting on with it.
The ones I did find that were happy to document what they did were Dennis Murrell, Michael Bush, Barbara on biobees and Dee lusby.
They all do things differently too, so I get to chose which route makes better sense to me.
First year was just use starter strips, then onto SC and then, eventually onto foundationless all while I keep learning.
The more people talk about what and how they achieve TF bees the better for everyone.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

You will have to keep on trying different things but you have to be very diligent and systematic in your search. Dont put all your faith into what someone tells you they have been doing. In the 6 or 7 years I have been watching this and other forums I have seen too many examples of ones who claim to have found the holy grail and a bit later on have made a 180 deg turn and off in another direction with equal enthusiasm.

Attempting to get the short answer while trying multiple approaches makes it just about impossible to correctly associate cause and effect. Weather effects in one season can predispose who things unfold in the following year for example. The net benefit /drawback to different courses of action can be much smaller than other forces. Also it is very hard to be free from confirmation bias even when we are aware of its effects and consciously trying to avoid it.

Here,
_ (msl's signature line) "management decisions based upon hard data.The easiest person in the world to fool is oneself"- Randy Oliver_

Also, 

_"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." - Tolstoy."_


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Agreed.
There are no short answers, nor can anything be achieved by constantly changing direction with every new advice, but know what others have done and are doing who have got to where you want to go, is well worth paying attention to.

School starts when you get into the real world.
Ultimately, it must be a matter of getting the basics right, slow and small changes and having a willingness to do a U turn if there is a need to do so; all the while keeping in mind what the end goal is.

Have to say, I do appreciate everyone's input.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

mischief said:


> School starts when you get into the real world.


One thing it pays to be aware of - is that people are often involved with *selling* stuff. Not always products, and not always for money. Quite often what they're selling are their ideas, and frequently for reasons of ideology rather than cash.

Most of the earliest beekeeping books contain sales pitches in one form or another: why a beekeeper should buy into *their* style of hive, or *their* system of beekeeping, rather than anyone else's.

You may care to think about why Langstroth, for example, filed a Patent for his hive design. How many people know that he (a man of the cloth after all) had a direct commercial interest in the manufacturing and selling of his hive design ?

Emile Warre is another good example. He spent a huge amount of man-hours in experimenting with various hive designs, and then promptly tells his readers not on any account to spend time experimenting ! Of course not - buy my book, buy my design, buy into my system of beekeeping, and not anyone else's ...

It happens on this forum too: people try to sell to others whatever is working well for them - and usually with the best of motives.

Pity the poor beginner who doesn't know who, or what methodology to trust.
LJ


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

mischief said:


> Agreed.
> There are no short answers, nor can anything be achieved by constantly changing direction with every new advice, but know what others have done and are doing who have got to where you want to go, is well worth paying attention to.
> 
> School starts when you get into the real world.
> Ultimately, it must be a matter of getting the basics right, slow and small changes and having a willingness to do a U turn if there is a need to do so; all the while keeping in mind what the end goal is.


Yes, being willing to modify your course is a good thing. Knowing what others are doing is valuable but be at least a little bit cautious about accepting their conclusions or you expose yourself to their possible errors of cause and effect. Their local conditions could be highly responsible for their observations. Remember that hunches or opinions are all too often presented as fact, and that the degree of conviction is not tied solidly to their correctness.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Local conditions....Yes!!
I'm hoping my bees will adapt more readily to my location because the person i got them from, got his from someone in my home town. So, they came from here, moved an hour south from me for a number of years and have come back.
I may be waxing lyrical, but for me this is a major plus point.

For us poor newbies, we can only decide which path to try, hopefully basing our decisions on really good R&D/due diligence. It really is a buyer beware society, sadly, even when it comes to knowledge.
There are always variables, so when people say...read...read and read some more, this is a good point.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I am skeptical that the bees in question have done much adapting to the local conditions but the local conditions may have selected for bees whose natural inclinations give them some advantage _under those conditions_. For example in our northern lake effect area with minus 35 deg winters, commonly variable spring conditions including false springs, will tend to cull out Italian habits in favor of more Carniolan or Russian types especially if you engage in hands off bee husbandry. Managed differently the Italians could well be very successful and productive. Local conditions!

Change conditions like moving the bees, or experience a year with non typical conditions and the specialization you have selected for will come back and bite you in the ath! Specialization is the enemy of resilience!

But dont worry, your chances of permanently changing the bees flexibily is extremely unlikely. Once the imposed isolation is removed, they will quickly recover!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

mischief said:


> Local conditions....Yes!!
> I'm hoping my bees will adapt more readily to my location because the person i got them from, got his from someone in my home town.


My prediction, is with the late spring treatment, you will look at your bees after the honey harvest and think they look fine so will not treat them. Then come spring they will be in the same predicament they were this spring.

That's unless you give them periodic so called soft treatments, which will slow the whole process down.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Hopefully, i have learnt an important lesson in regards to how to tell if they need treatment over winter and yes it will be a soft one.
Unfortunately, I will probably have to keep doing so for a while yet. 

Crofter, 
I am puzzled by your comment on hands off husbandry. I am assuming this is completely different from hands of beekeeping.
Is this- mess with them as little as possible, dont change out the brood comb, leave them to change out their Queens as they so choose to do?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good to hear Mischief, learning to read the signs is an essential part of keeping bees alive over here.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

mischief said:


> Hopefully, i have learnt an important lesson in regards to how to tell if they need treatment over winter and yes it will be a soft one.
> Unfortunately, I will probably have to keep doing so for a while yet.
> 
> Crofter,
> ...


I am not suggesting that leaving the bees entirely to their own resources is the "best". With suitable management, different bee strains can work successfully under different conditions. Unless you are very isolated you will have a very hard time changing your bees much from the background population. As Oldtimer suggests, better to learn to read your bees inclinations and alter _your_ methods to suit.

If you wish to be more _hands on_, like with fall and spring feeding, you could be successful with other bees. This relates to my example comparing Carni and Italian bees in my climate and local conditions. That would most likely not apply to NZ. though.

In the big picture I dont think we have the wisdom to make wise decisions in changing the bees.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

No, our conditions are completely different and no, I do not agree with feeding except in emergencies.

I am using a method to regress my bees because I have been told they will not survive without continually being treated by the calendar and by the book- Apistan/Apivar and Bavarol and that they do not/ will not regress down to smaller size on there own here.
I do not know if this is true or not, but from what I have seen on our local forum, this appears to be the acceptable truth.

This is not a quick process and While I am doing it, I am also not too sure that it is the only thing I need to address.
I also think there may very well be a problem with the bees immune system- just like our own suffering from sheer chemical overload....but i have a sneaky plan I want to try this year, a la Murrell.
The first step was to give them starter strips to build out from, then go onto small cell frames with the shoulders not shaved down and now bit by bit introducing the shaved down frames.
Will it work? I dont know, as I said earlier, I have all the questions, not the answers.
I will keep trying, knowing that others have done similar and are now happily keeping bees not fighting mites- thats the end goal.

Catch 22. ****ed if I do and ****ed if I dont.
If I leave my bees as is, they will die. If I treat as most do here with bought chemical treatments, they will may not die, but they will not be healthy in the long term and already, I am hearing murmurings that these treatments are not as effective as they once were. I have been told to keep the Apivar in for longer than the package states and will do so simply because i had to use this sh-stuff and do have to make sure it is in long enough to do its job. Hopefully this will be the last time I ever have to use it.

Does this make me a hypocrite? 
Probably in the eyes of some, but as I have said elsewhere, i am treating my bees as I do myself and as I also treated my kids= if I have/had to use meds. I use them as recommended, no short cuts.
I prefer to use food, homegrown is obviously the best and dietary supplements and have even gone out of my way to do my best for my bees in this regard as well, in spite of being told that i simply cannot grow enough to meet their needs. 

I disagree, every little bit we do makes a difference and if every beek grew season specific plants for both native and honey bees, we will all be better off than if we sat on on hands and did nothing.

I am seeing beeks here, saying that it now takes less varroa to cause hives to fail. This tells me that our bees are compromised and/or varroa along the associated viral infections are more toxic.
Our (NZ) gene pool is, from what I have read so far, has always been seriously limited.

To me, every hive is valuable and needs to be allowed to reproduce itself as it sees fit. I let them produce as much drone as they like, I do not use and refuse point blank, to use Queen excluders.

I maybe wrong, but that these points may one day, may be a key factor in changing things for the better. 
We just do not know.

As I have also said elsewhere and maybe here, cant remember,....we need to look at a broader picture and change alot more of our actions and behaviours. 
Stop using pesticides, herbicides, fungicides. Stop planting pretty fashionable hybrid plants and turn back to locally natives. 
Failing that, grow your own herbs, fruit and vegetables. Let the wild weeds grow- dandelions, sow thistles etc.... 
Like us, bees need diversity.

It is no longer just about us or just about our bees, it has got to the point where it is about our whole eco system.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Well that is quite the philosophical mission statement! It is obviously very energizing for you. Hopefully confirmation bias will not interfere too much with the search for truth.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

mischief said:


> Let the wild weeds grow- dandelions, sow thistles etc....


If you were caught sowing thistles in Britain, you'd end up in court ...
(UK Weeds Act 1959, revised 2014)
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

> Let the wild weeds grow- dandelions, sow thistles etc....





little_john said:


> If you were caught sowing thistles in Britain, you'd end up in court ...
> (UK Weeds Act 1959, revised 2014)
> LJ


No need to sow anything. 
They will sow themselves just fine and legally too. 




> *The Act does not make it illegal to allow the five weeds to grow* .....


https://assets.publishing.service.g...ploads/attachment_data/file/696264/weed2a.pdf


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mischief said:


> ..........
> It is no longer just about us or just about our bees, it has got to the point where it is about our whole eco system.


So, mischief, I am your advocate in many ways (foods, eco, etc). 
I live this life just as of this writing.

Now, back to the bees...
If you want to be off medications, you must think of your local "population", understand what it is, and find a way forward to alter the population around you in your favor.
Simply leaving your few backyard hives without their drugs will kill them (assuming typical commercial bees).
This will only reinforce the treater beekeepers' position.

In my case, I very quickly understood this - I don't have enough lifetime in me to try to select something out of the cloud of the commercial swarms around me.
This is possible, to be sure, but this is a very unproductive project with uncertain outcomes.
I might just croak before anything useful will come out of this.

A fellow TF beekeeper in my area already attempted exactly this (so I know about the problem in my locality with the flood of commercial bees).
After many years of trying he finally caught *ONE *swarm that produced a promising line (these particular bees have been off-meds up to 5 years now, I believe).
So, I got a queen from this friend.
Also, I got a couple of queens from other friend.
So, now we are talking some real business, something we can practically work with (not a pie in a sky).

I say this - look around and find sources that already done the work before you (no need to reinvent a bike). 
Get few promising queens and go from there.
BUT - unsure how realistic this plan is in NZ; maybe it is, maybe not - you should know better (to compare, North America offers many options in this regard).

Given the sterile, commercial environment around you, I do not see a practical way forward (artificially sterile environment is bad in many, many ways - not going there).
To be honest, the honey bees should be just banned in NZ altogether and done with (well, the next question will be then what about honey bees in Australia and North America - so, not going there either).
The Pandora's box has been opened. 
A done deal can not be undone now.

Well, I will stop here and let you do the thinking about your next steps.... 
Don't wanna suggest anything illegal.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Such brief selective quotations can be very misleading ...



> Under the Act, the Secretary of State may serve a notice on an occupier of any land on which the injurious weeds are growing, requiring the occupier to take action to prevent the weeds from spreading. The Act permits authorised officials to enter land to inspect whether an enforcement notice has been complied with. If an occupier has unreasonably failed to comply with the notice, he or she shall be guilty of an offence and, on conviction, liable to a fine.





> Please note it is an offence under section 14(2) of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 to “plant or otherwise cause to grow in the wild” any plant listed in Schedule 9, Part II of the Act which includes Japanese Knotweed. It is not an offence to simply have it growing in your garden or on your land and there is no specific legal requirement to control it if it is.


What this adds up to is - it's quite ok to have weeds growing in your own garden - but - if they spread into the wild, or if a person complains about wind-blown seeding of thistles (etc) onto their land, then notice may be served as above. It's far more likely these days to form the basis of an ASBO (Anti-Social Behaviour Order). If granted, then breaching the terms of an ASBO can lead to a fine, imprisonment, or both.
LJ


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

GregV said:


> No need to sow anything.
> They will sow themselves just fine and legally too.


 I agree, most fields and other rough ground is full of thistles round here.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Such brief selective quotations can be very misleading ...LJ


You are correct at that.
But anyway, the thistles are less a concern and might well fly on their own everywhere.

Meanwhile, dropping few seed balls there and here can be quite effective. 
Some scrap lands in my area (already full of thistles) would only benefit from sweet clover addition, for example.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

What I was trying to communicate is that Mischief really needs to check-out the legislation in his own country. My guess is that it might be pretty tight if Oz is anything to go by, as I believe they're quite heavy-handed over there when it comes to blackberries and similar - precisely because of their potential for invasiveness.

And it's not just the law - it's about getting on with your neighbours too. Thistles for example, might be ok on moorland and scrub land as Pete says, but they are a serious nuisance on productive farmland. Where I live the land is Grade I, growing two crops a year if they're planted out in modules, and there's not a single thistle in sight - and that's over tens of thousands of acres. If I were to sow thistles around here, I'd expect angry farmers to soon come knocking on my front door. 

And anyway, there are plenty of other nectar bearing plants which could be sown without causing such problems - Borage for example, or Viper's Bugloss, or Buckwheat - there are plenty to choose from without creating problems for one's neighbours. With the long term in mind, why not grow some Bee-Bee trees (tetradium daniellii) ? 
LJ


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Sorry, I get a bit carried away sometimes.

Sow thistles are called Puha here and is a traditional food source, one which I do not like, but the bumbles and the finches do. Its not the nodding thistle- all prickly, thats a different story, I think that is classed as a noxious weed, but I still let it self sow so there is always at least two. Its supposed to be high in minerals and good for something. I'm going to have to take another look at my herb book.

Um.....actually, its, She.

My neighbours, now both have lovely tall fences that makes their places look even 'better' than before. ( I built them) Now they can just forget I am here and I cant see their environmental tragedies either. We are all much happier now.

This may not be as straight forward as I was hoping.....worse case scenario then, I might have to treat with something, OAV most likely.
I am allowed 10 hives on the property, mum's place is 5 minutes away and 10 could go there too, then there is my sons place a little further away but still within range......(shaking head here), cant see this happening any time just yet. Work commitments and knowing my own limits.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Um.....actually, its, She.
:thumbsup:


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Good info GregV. Over the years of reading the experiences of others in different places, it seems to me that there is no "formula" for keeping TF bees that works for everyone. It's a psychological human condition, when we do something a certain way and it works for us, we assume we have hit the right formula, it's a human condition to look for a concrete set of rules we can follow. And think that if everybody else does that it will work for them also. In beekeeping this does not always apply due to different locations, and bee types.
> 
> As examples of this is a certain management technique that has been touted as the be all and end all of swarm control. It worked well for the originator but not always for people in other locations. But the originator could never accept it didn't work for everybody, he would always insist they must not be doing it correctly.


Bad example OT !!!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Tim to sum the post up in 3 words it would read _beekeeping is local_. I believe that true, and do not see stating it, as a bad example.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I also don't see Oldtimer's early comment as being a bad example ... quite the opposite.

The last two posts have revived a thread from last year, and so I scanned upwards to Mischief's post at the top of the page (couldn't summon enough enthusiasm to look any further back), and I noticed a couple of things in that post I'd like to comment on:



> I am using a method to regress my bees because *I have been told *they will not survive without continually being treated by the calendar and by the book- Apistan/Apivar and Bavarol and that they do not/ will not regress down to smaller size on there own here.
> I do not know if this is true or not, but from *what I have seen on our local forum,* this appears to be the acceptable truth.
> 
> If I leave my bees as is, they will die. If I treat as most do here with bought chemical treatments, they will may not die, but they will not be healthy in the long term and already, *I am hearing murmurings* that these treatments are not as effective as they once were.
> ...


What I read in the above is a fair amount of being influenced by the opinions of others. It seems to me that there are two ways of proceeding: either to "do your own thing" and live with the consequences, whether these be good or bad - or to follow the beekeeping methods of those who you know to be 'successful', in whatever form 'success' means for you.



> To me, every hive is valuable and needs to be allowed to reproduce itself as it sees fit.


To you, maybe - but that's not how Nature operates. Nature is unfeeling and impartial - there is no enhanced 'value' placed upon any particular organism: it either survives or it doesn't; it either reproduces or it doesn't.


Re: small cell. My colonies all draw natural-sized cells - it's something they've established themselves after countless repeated cycles of drawing foundationless comb. I haven't imposed this size upon them, and can see no reason why your bees should not undergo the same process - I can't see any reason why a different location should make any difference. Unless you attract swarms of course, which bring 'whatever size they happen to be' along with them. 

Which brings me to bees originating from outside of your apiary. Even if you were to adopt the most 'natural' beekeeping methods in the world, if you have 'non-natural' beekeepers within range, then your bees will influence their genetics, and theirs yours. It's a bi-directional process in which "no man is an island", due to the honeybee's promiscuous mating habits. There's really no way of getting around this, unless you adopt AI or some other form of genetic control.
'best
LJ


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Unfortunately for new beekeepers, we have to take on board what other more experienced Beeks say..... having said that, y'll have had 30 years to deal the mites and its still here and in NZ worse than ever before, so please pause before you knock someone trying something that is considered stoopid.

My hive is still alive after almost 3 years in a country where most newbies either lose them, if not in the first year, then in the second, so I am at least hanging in there.

My personal philosophy on life is difficult for a lot of people to deal with- too bad. 
Part of it is ALL creatures have a right to be here whether we appreciate them or not- that is nature. They all have a part to play whether we understand their role or not.

My understanding of beekeepers is All are passionate about their bees and all have their own opinions as to which is the best way to keep them. Me, I'm still learning, but even I have set parametres according to what i have studied over the 3 years previous to getting my hive. 

I'm told that I need 'to get a dose of real', why? because you cant keep bees alive in NZ on small cell according to OT....hmmmm 

What you have apparently missed is OT tried to go SC and his bees died within two years. Now whether that was because plastic frames were a new concept and it wasnt understood that they need to be heavily waxed, or did he just put them straight onto SC without letting them build out on starter strips first...did he just stop doing what ever treatments he was doing expecting SC to be a silver bullet??? I dont know either and havent had the time nor inclination to find out.

Unlike most of you, I have only had this one hive for almost three years....guess what??? thats 100 % survival rate for almost three!!!!! years running and yes, with the help from a kind hearted samaratin last spring.

This year I am going to Have to split them or they are going to swarm. Already their box is getting to be too small and we are only in the first month of spring here.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Hit the send button by mistake....oh well.
I did an OAV on monday- 24 hour mite count was two. Checked again today- none.
I have ****croaches and ( dont you just hate it when that word sits on the tongue and wont come out)...some other bug that might be eating the mites off the boards. Thats the only way i can see how you can have less mites on the boards than you did the day before.

My bottom line up front, to borrow a cool expression, is and always has been= There is something very wrong with the idea that you must treat any lifeform JUST to keep it alive.
I know of no other animal/insect that has to be treated just to keep it alive.
Something is wrong with this.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Centipede


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

mischief said:


> What you have apparently missed is OT tried to go SC and his bees died within two years.


Little-John did not "apparently miss" that, his post was some advice, to you Mischief. 



mischief said:


> you cant keep bees alive in NZ on small cell according to OT....hmmmm


Not according to me. I have bees alive on small cell now.



mischief said:


> OT tried to go SC and his bees died within two years. Now whether that was because plastic frames were a new concept and it wasnt understood that they need to be heavily waxed


No it wasn't that.



mischief said:


> or did he just put them straight onto SC without letting them build out on starter strips first.


No not that either.



mischief said:


> I dont know either and havent had the time nor inclination to find out.


But you keep talking about it. Might be faster just to find out.



mischief said:


> Unlike most of you, I have only had this one hive for almost three years....guess what??? thats 100 % survival rate for almost three!!!!! years running and yes, with the help from a kind hearted samaratin last spring.


"Unlike most of you" LOL. Survival for more than 2 years is the norm rather than the exception. Especially when like you, people use chemical treatments to kill the mites.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Chem treatments? Wasnt that was what you were pushing last year.
I dont use them as a matter of course and have been up front in having to do so last spring.... and what you have just said is completely different to what you said to me in PM's. 
You also said...'I might try SC again' and now you are saying you already have been...hmmm 
Maybe I should just copy and paste our PM's for transparency.

You told me 'you have to use Apivar, not Apilife or your bees will die', now you are saying you dont actually use these chems. refer to "I had a bright idea" in the pests and disease forum.

I did notice that you didnt mention....'she needs to get a dose of real'...ie, silly girl for thinking she could do TF in NZ. I think thats in the TF opinions thread.

I'm not interested in maintaining a 'rep'.

I just want bees that stay alive and you know what? So far they are.

Whats the national average survival rate in any country? Thats actually a rhetorical question...but is 100 %....no. it isnt
On the 1st of January, my hive will be 4 years old.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I thought OT hit the nail squarely on the head when he wrote:


> ... when we do something a certain way and it works for us, we assume we have hit the right formula, it's a human condition to look for a concrete set of rules we can follow. And think that if everybody else does that it will work for them also.


Now although OT was referring to TF techniques, this applies to so many others as well. One of my techniques - which I believe is the core principle underpinning my own modest successes, is to run hives in a 'condenser' format.

That is: to have highly insulated tops, little insulation at the sides, and as near as possible an open bottom. This format then condenses excess water and allows it to fall out of the hive and thus keep it 'sweet'. The bees over-winter near the top, where it's warmest - and where emergency supplies of feed are located during winter, just in case they should run out of stores. This methodology has been running like clockwork now for several years, and so I've posted about the 'advantages' of setting up hives in this way ... only for those who have prolonged and severe winters to quickly point out that if they were to follow suit, a solid block of ice would undoubtedly form beneath each hive as a result.

I believe exactly the same 'lack of a universal formula' applies to TF issues. I treat mites with Vapourised Oxalic Acid (only) and would very much like to not be doing that. I know such a treatment is 'pointless' in the sense that it isn't a one-off cure, as re-infestation is a reality of life - but it is the only acceptable method I know of to keep the mites in check until such time as a more permanent solution is hopefully found.

I have yet to encounter any TF regime or principal which gives any form of guarantee that it's adoption holds a realistic prospect of success - if one were demonstrated to exist, then I'd certainly try it. You said earlier that 'we' (presumably the 'treaters') have had 30 years to deal with the mites - but so too have the TF enthusiasts - and neither of these two groups are unfortunately any nearer to finding a practical long-term solution.

LJ


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

mischief said:


> Chem treatments?.......
> I dont use them as a matter of course.


But you do use them quite a bit, even last monday



mischief said:


> I did an OAV on monday





mischief said:


> what you have just said is completely different to what you said to me in PM's.


No it isn't.



mischief said:


> Maybe I should just copy and paste our PM's for transparency.


Please do there will be no discrepency.

Then after that get off my back and stop following me around. Cos Mischief, nobody else cares about your little issue with me. I don't even know myself why you have an issue with me. Let's get past it and back to the thread topic.


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Thats interesting!
I have had ceiling rated insulation over the inner covers ever since I felt the heat coming off the inner cover in the first winter. Its been there ever since.

One thing that has concerned me is that the empty section of my long hive is Wet during winter. I dont know if this is actually a problem, but it doesnt feel right.
I was thinking of insulating or closing the hive space down so there wasnt so much empty space.... A closed space holding in the heat will create a more humid atmosphere.

how sad to end a post like that....ummm Michael Bush and Dennis Murell spring to mind. I'm sure there are others who just cant be bothered with forums.

So getting back to insulation.
What I noticed with my hive is that they cluster on the sun side of the hive even with the insulation over top. I have a;ways wondered if it would be better to insulate the cold sides but leave the sun side uninsulated.
What do you think?


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## mischief (Jan 21, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> But you do use them quite a bit, even last monday
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OT.
I'm done with Stoopid, anyone who wants to bother with this can simply click on our names at the top and go through all our posts to see who has been say what.
NOW!!! can we get back to the topic at hand.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

mischief said:


> anyone who wants to bother with this


Nobody wants to bother with this. Trust me.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

mischief said:


> Unlike most of you, I have only had this one hive for almost three years....guess what??? thats 100 % survival rate for almost three!!!!! years running and yes, with the help from a kind hearted samaratin last spring.
> 
> This year I am going to Have to split them or they are going to swarm. Already their box is getting to be too small and we are only in the first month of spring here.


If I was trying TF and had only one colony and that colony had survived three years, I would split it at every opportunity as insurance against the loss of such a promising line. 

Alex


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

AHudd said:


> If I was trying TF and had only one colony and that colony had survived three years, I would split it at every opportunity as insurance against the loss of such a promising line.


I can't follow the logic here - how is that colony 'promising' from a TF perspective if it needed to be treated last Spring ?

However, if I only had one colony - then I'd certainly split it as an insurance against accidents, acts of god, and sheer bad luck.

LJ


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

little_john said:


> I can't follow the logic here - how is that colony 'promising' from a TF perspective if it needed to be treated last Spring
> 
> LJ


I would call it promising in that it has survived three years with one treatment as opposed to many that don't survive after being treated multiple times, a few times a year.

Also, I was trying to point out that I think she should split.

Live long and prosper,
Alex


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

little_john said:


> I thought OT hit the nail squarely on the head when he wrote:
> 
> 
> Now although OT was referring to TF techniques, this applies to so many others as well. One of my techniques - which I believe is the core principle underpinning my own modest successes, is to run hives in a 'condenser' format.
> ...


Hmm.
Guess I need 11 more years of not treating for anything. Also haven't fed a colony since 2006. And gets very tempting to wipe out the 3rd Deeps for around 11 Tonnes.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Tim Ives said:


> Hmm.
> Guess I need 11 more years of not treating for anything. Also haven't fed a colony since 2006. And gets very tempting to wipe out the 3rd Deeps for around 11 Tonnes.


Well - other than sniping at my post, you're not actually "saying anything" which is informative, either for myself or anyone else.

Suggest you give a little more information - such as how many colonies you lose and need to replace each year; what steps or interventions you engage in during the season - and so on ...

There are quite a few beekeepers who claim to have been TF for long periods of time - but who also appear to be reluctant to give the fullest details of exactly how they operate.
LJ


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Since I stopped feeding in 2006, my colony counts spring to spring is more then previous year. There's NO "need to replace each year" lol. And forced to sell bees every other year. 

How to operate. Put bees in box( make sure they stay Queen right) add or subtract space when needed. Otherwise leave them alone! Simple as that. 


Yes, I will snipe at posts! Because like it or not, I'm not the one treating, feeding or buying bees!!!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>There are quite a few beekeepers who claim to have been TF for long periods of time - but who also appear to be reluctant to give the fullest details of exactly how they operate.

Interesting. I know a lot of them also and all of them are willing to share whatever you would like to know about how they operate.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

tim, can you give us an estimate on how many hives you are running these days?


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> tim, can you give us an estimate on how many hives you are running these days?


Maintaining around 300 w/ 2000 supers. Needing a bigger building to be efficient on processing Honey.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

And since we are all so willing to share, what is your total honey harvest. (honey that was packed into jars and sold) ?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

You know it is so easy to boast and brag about how great and wonderful your hives are especially not even treating or feeding, however you might be able to get away with that in your location but in my neck of the woods you would not have your colonies or much honey for very long unless you at least feed your bees in the late summer and fall. you would be lucky if you got close to 100 lbs of honey in those tall hives with maybe a 5 week flow in the early spring if we are lucky. So basically what I am trying to get through to some folks is what you may be able to do in one place you cannot do in another. So just thank your lucky stars that you are in an area that can provide for your bees.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

i can not even imagine 2000 supers for 300 hives. Boggles the mind here. 20 hives, 40 supers, and I'm good. Even my most productive hive this past season couldn't fill and cap two mediums.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

I've heard the EXACT same thing around here.
Hate to burst your bubble. Stop maintaining WEAK colonies. Yes, simple as that and no luck involved.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Which is EXACTLY what OldTimer was talking about a short time back: those who are successful in one set of circumstances so often proceed to assume that they have discovered 'the secret of the Holy Grail' and further assume that their methods ought to apply equally to everyone, everywhere - and so that anyone who doesn't copy their example must either be mad, bad, stupid - or just plain wrong. Is it any wonder that such a pronounced schism exists between those who treat for mites and those who don't ?
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Which is EXACTLY what OldTimer was talking about a short time back:.......... LJ


This being said - in all fairness we should let OT and mischeif to hash this one out between themselves, the NZ beeks.


Who are we, coming from N. America or the Old World, to tell them?
But -* it goes both ways.*

The same applies to the US regional and local situations.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV said:


> This being said - in all fairness we should let OT and mischeif to hash this one out between themselves, the NZ beeks.


Hi Greg - it wasn't so much the Oldtimer/ Mischief dynamic (which I haven't been following/ don't understand/ and have zero interest in) which I was referring to, but rather that Tim Ives appears to be keeping his bees in a highly privileged setting ... but ... over time he has come to see that location as being 'normal', and the returns of honey - which really are superb - as being par for the course. He appears to think that the rest of us also live in similar privileged settings.

As you know, I don't take a honey crop - if I did, then it would be a handful of pounds per hive. I feed because I have to; I treat because I have to.

When I returned to beekeeping after several decades away earning a living, I immediately lost one colony due to starvation - because I didn't appreciate the difference in my present location from that of my youth. Likewise I lost colony after colony due to 'an unknown cause', resulting in a two-inch deep carpet of dead bees at the bottom of each hive which developed during the winter period. It was only after learning about the Varroa mite - something I'd never encountered as a schoolboy beekeeper - that I started treating with Oxalic Acid. And since then I've never looked back. No more starvation (because I now appreciate the need to feed within this area), and no more dead-outs from Varroa (because I now treat those mites).

In a sense, I've already tried TF (although I didn't call it that at the time), and this resulted in colony losses. This idea that you can just put bees in a box and leave them alone to sort things out themselves may work for some people in some settings - but it didn't work for me. I've learned my lesson re: mites, and I ain't going back to pointlessly losing colonies. I wouldn't mind losing a few if it was part of some proven guaranteed blueprint to achieve a sustainable Treatment-Free apiary - but at present it would appear that no such animal (i.e. blueprint) exists.
LJ


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I have had a few very strong hives starve to death in 4 boxes full of bees in late summer here. They were so strong I ignored them and fed some weaker colonies and all of a sudden the strong hive was dead with not a drop of stores, funny the weaker ones I was feeding are still alive and produced maybe 30 or 40 lbs of honey and since I took that I have no alternative but to feed. Sugar here goes for 50 cents a lb honey on the other hand brings $7 per lb so viva le difference.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Hi Greg ....... Tim Ives appears to be keeping his bees in a* highly privileged setting* ... LJ


I would have to agree.

This probably is similar to Leo Sharashkin's case, deep in the Missouri Ozarks (another example of idealistic and preferred local setting).

For sure, we in the US have quite a few locations now with robust feral populations that allow the beekeeping be more normal (normal ~ similar to the pre-mite times).
The other locations have long to go yet to the same status (some probably never).

Such local distinctions must be always be identified and put up-front, before getting into any significant talks of T vs. TF.
Once these are clear to everyone, then we can try to achieve those particular distinctions in our own places too, if only feasible (TF is being the ultimate, long-term goal for everyone, no arguments there I am sure)

Just saying "do not treat" without qualifications is not sufficient, counter-productive, somewhat limited-minded, and even not entirely honest.
This is WITHOUT spelling out WHAT must be in-place and WHAT to expect - before you go for the "do not treat" and have some success.

PS: 
this goes* both ways* - preaching to treat indiscriminately, without qualifications is the same - "not sufficient, counter-productive, somewhat limited-minded, and even not entirely honest";
especially in the US with the pending year 2020 with the current availability of information and the material;
especially when EVERYONE in theory and eventually wants to be completely treatment-free and done with, or so they say (but NOT the other way around);

so - someone must get started on this already but do it in a fully informed and systematic way.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

LOL, wish I'd saved every post from way back where I've been told by superior people that I just need to stop treating.

And then after I gave it a try (small cell, TF wax foundation, and all the other guff being spouted at the time), but all the bees died, wish I'd saved all the posts from superior people implying they are so much smarter than me, cos I failed and they didn't.

Kinda wish some of them would come over here and try it, and then let's see how smart they are.

Well, twice that has actually happened. In one case a successful TF SC beekeeper immigrated to our country, jumped on the local forum and basically told us all NZ beekeepers are idiots. He had been TF for years, and was going to educate us all how it is done. Anybody expressing doubts was attacked viciously, he was condescending, and had an ego almost equal to T. I.
I'll give it to him he was a hard worker, in one year he had collected 50 swarms and cutouts, and hand made all the sc foundation. I'll respect him for his dedication and hard work. He was at the extreme end of TF, claiming his bees would not get AFB or any other ailment, and started selling his special nucs to the gullible for equivalent of just under US$2,000.00

That was season one. End of season two he had burned several hives with AFB, and all but a handful of his other hives had perished from mites. The remaining handful were checked by an AFB inspector and found to be terminal, and they died later.

This whole thing was so crushing for the guy that he had some mental issues, and has not popped his head up on the local forum again.

Just need a few other of the bloated egos to come over here to show us all how it's done, would be educational. For them.

All this has confirmed to me that GregV is correct, beekeeping is local. Especially TF beekeeping. And I am just one of the majority, ie, people who live where TF beekeeping doesn't work. That has been proved by at least one overseas "expert".


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> LOL, wish I'd saved every post from way back where I've been told by superior people that I just need to stop treating..........


I have to say, I listened to every single Sol Parker podcasts....

So after 50 episodes or so (IF you really do this) - one might start getting the sense that Sol is changing his tune (it is called evolving).... 


This is how I understood eventually - what that really meant was - there are some resistant feral bees in some areas in Arkansas.
Sol Parker never mentioned at the time when continuously talking of his success in Arkansas - the true resistance source and foundation of his TF program was the bee population ALREADY living at the location and ALREADY gone through the needed adaptations (my belief).

I am pretty darn sure he never even thought of that critical part at the time.
Not as the critical prerequisite of going off-treatments, anyway.
It all appeared very darn simple - you just don't treat and the things just work out fine.
On the surface.

Today things are little different if you listen to the chatter, as I hear it.
Well, we are all learning, aren't' we? 
I hope we do.


This being said, we'll see if such a population can be actually created and be sustainable in most average locations.
I think - yes (but NOT so likely in each and every location).
Moving along.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

I read - either on Randy Oliver's webpage or a link from there- about an interesting experiment, which I will summarize. I may get some details wrong, gut the general idea will be right.

Take 24 colonies - sister queens, mixed bees.
Place 12 in single deeps, leave them alone.
Place 12 in single deeps, add more boxes, manage for maximum production - but don't treat.
Result: at end of 2 years, the managed hives were all dead. The hives left alone in single deeps 11 out of 12 hives were still alive. The 12th apparently got mite - bombed from one of the managed hives when it died.

This somewhat explains the survival of wild colonies (or feral colonies, depending on where you live). A single deep is about the size of a typical self selected bee home.

It also points to some methods for keeping hives alive, which unfortunately are not methods for producing surplus, and probably not for producing increase either.

I am thinking about going treatment free, but have yet to do so.

I am in the middle of a small city, and while I think there are some feral bees about, the majority of drones are from wannabeekeepers, who get a couple of hives and after having them die off a few times, give up. But the genetics are mostly package bees from California or Georgia, which aren't likely to have the sort of genetics I would want.

I'm not able to keep enough hives to dominate the local gene pool, so relying on superior genetics probably won't really be effective.

Still thinking about it though.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Interesting experiment A Novice, I hadn't heard about that one.



GregV said:


> I have to say, I listened to every single Sol Parker podcasts....
> 
> So after 50 episodes or so (IF you really do this) ....


LOL Greg, got to say, you have a lot more stamina than I.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> LOL Greg, got to say, you have a lot more stamina than I.


It was fun for a while...
I don't listen now. 
Need a break.

But also got me thinking as I was (still am) implementing lots of things for real.
One move I did (thanks to those podcasts and his TF forum), I got me few feral queens from Arkansas.
It was a darn good move as looks like so far.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> It also points to some methods for keeping hives alive, which *unfortunately are not methods for producing surplus, and probably not for producing increase either.*
> 
> Still thinking about it though.


Not necessarily so.
Again, do not be afraid to run "throw away" large hives (such hive can be supported by extra 1-2 nucs).

You have to have the "propagation/expansion" branch.
And you have to run the "production/throw away" branch.

The idea of clinging to each and ever hive at all cost is not productive.

The only bees worth saving at all costs - are your main propagation/expansion queens (say, I have TWO such TF queens now and some of their daughters will be IF they survive the winter).

I have 16 other laying queens on hand right now - ALL 2019 summer production - these all are not-tested yet or maybe just junk as is (but I will let them fight it out best they can).
It takes a good winter at least and then we'll see what is really going on again. 
All are the production bees are easily replaceable (especially if you plan for it and just run your operations around this idea).


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

GregV said:


> I got me few feral queens from Arkansas.
> It was a darn good move as looks like so far.


That's interesting Greg because there is a lot of discussion around wether TF bees or queens can be moved and still succeed. Solomons operation kinda fell apart when he moved although could have been failure to adjust methods for new area. How long have you had the Arkansas bees, and how are they going in the second and third generation?

Something I've always thought I would love to do, is import some proven TF queens, such as for example Squarepegs, and see if they could work out over here.
Unfortunately it is illegal to import, and there are very good reasons for that so i support it, all the same it's always been a little dream.

I did moot a couple of years ago that we set up a quarantine island for the purpose of importing bees, we have several suitable islands. But, the idea went down like a lead ballon, unfortunately.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> That's interesting Greg because there is a lot of discussion around wether TF bees or queens can be moved and still succeed.
> 
> like a lead ballon


I have got a report from Central Europe (Google maps Ruovesi-Luxembourg 2126 km) that my queen "does not need any medication"
This testimony is in fact public and available in Internet.
http://perso.unamur.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_PJ_2011.html


P.S. Do you know the TV series "Myth Busters"? They once made a lead balloon and it flied.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> ....How long have you had the Arkansas bees, and how are they going in the second and third generation?....



I got two lines from Arkansas (each made through two winters so far; surviving one of the harshest winters on record too - 2018/2019).
1)some lineage originating from the Weavers and 
2)some local feral mutts.

Winter-hardiness was an immediate concern too since in Arkansas it is much milder and winter selection is not as hard.
But still have both lines - as 2nd/3rd generations now.

It seems the line #1 is doing better up here after the two winters now.
A second generation queen is my top resource queen at the moment (her mother died at my hands - accidental pinch I think, while splitting).
Got 7 daughters from her with some differences; will see how they winter (open mated of course).

The line #2 seems less winter hardy.
I barely saved a second generation queen (diarrhea was terrible and almost terminal - but made it; her mother died in very late February - explosive diarrhea.).
Got 3 daughters from her going, hopefully some better wintering traits mated in.

I have been trying to cross-pollinate the #1 and #2 by running them from different yards within a mile from each other.

There are also some Russians from a TF friend are present in the area, hopefully good for mating.

So will see how the winter 2019/2020 turns.
Crossing the fingers for the older queens to go through again - really need them for the drone program.

Hard to predict before hand who makes it and who does not.
The pre-winter looks are deceptive.

I got other lines in testing too - at least one winter is down for each.
Just basic July splitting is the management tool.

Depending how the winter goes, may bring some new blood in from some TF sources again.
I heard a friend captured seemingly a feral swarm this summer.
Fingers crossed there; maybe will get some of those.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> .....And I am just one of the majority, ie, people who live where TF beekeeping doesn't work.....


Here is the thing thou...
90%-95% beeks around me - all they talk - treat, treat, treat...

Outside of us, three guys, no one is even trying to do anything to move things forward.
Good material is available for taking - just ask around.
I guess finally this spring some bought few Russian packages.
The Russians are available forever, finally someone brought them in.
Hope this continues.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hopefully you'll be able to help them out Greg.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Juhani Lunden said:


> This testimony is in fact public and available in Internet.
> http://perso.unamur.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_PJ_2011.html


Paul Jungels pedigree 2011:

– Primorsky Breeder No

P150(PJ)	= imq .09 – B85(JL) hauk B139(JL) : .06 – R84(JL) ins Rmix06(JL) : 
(12) itq .04 – R113(KK) hauk B29pp(JL) : itq .02 – P7(KK) hbg EL134(IK) : etc... 
This colony doesn’t need any varroatreatment.

imq = imported mature queen 
.09 = born 2009 (in Finland, posted to Luxembourg in July)
(JL) = Juhani Lunden, these initials are marked according to who is the breeder who has done the evaluation of that particular queen


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> That's interesting Greg because there is a lot of discussion around wether TF bees or queens can be moved and still succeed.


I was in a talk at Apimondia last week where this exact subject was addressed. Genetic analysis of a population of 'local surviving' bees as compared to 'run of the mill migratory stock'. The presenter brought forward an interesting conclusion. When looking at the genetics, there was absolutely no difference comparing the local survivors to the commercial migratory stock. OTOH, when comparing genetics of the mites in those colonies, big difference.

Final conclusion, it's not the bees, it's the mites that are different....

I dont remember which local population they were comparing to, and I dont have my notes from the conference handy to try look it up right now.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

grozzie2 said:


> I was in a talk at Apimondia last week where this exact subject was addressed. Genetic analysis of a population of 'local surviving' bees as compared to 'run of the mill migratory stock'. The presenter brought forward an interesting conclusion. When looking at the genetics, there was absolutely no difference comparing the local survivors to the commercial migratory stock. OTOH, when comparing genetics of the mites in those colonies, big difference.
> 
> Final conclusion, it's not the bees, it's the mites that are different....
> 
> I dont remember which local population they were comparing to, and I dont have my notes from the conference handy to try look it up right now.


Resistance of Primorsky bees was discovered in Far East Russia, then confirmed in US, then confirmed in Central Europe, then Finland...

Bee genetics, that is the answer.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Highly privileged setting out in the middle of Corn/ Bean fields

Greg, pull up the thread 3 deeps pros or con. You'll see why I'm hammering on OT. Then Johno thought he should get his 2cents in of what he doesn't know about bees. Which I'll keep busting his bubble too.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Wait what? Total nonsense. If this beekeeper was truly TF, he would know how to deal with AFB, without treating or Burning the colony.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tim Ives said:


> Highly privileged setting out in the middle of Corn/ Bean fields
> 
> Greg, pull up the thread 3 deeps pros or con. You'll see why I'm hammering on OT. Then Johno thought he should get his 2cents in of what he doesn't know about bees. Which I'll keep busting his bubble too.


It is not the corn/soy field that define the special location.
It is the presence of already naturally adapted bees - that what defines the special location.

Jason Bruns (a swarm chaser from Indiana) tells very well how many feral bees are actually present in the corn/soy Indiana back country.
I believe him.

Tim, I will let you and OT to hash out your differences. 
I am out of it. 

I do envy you for your special bees.
Consider selling queens?
You should.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

grozzie2 said:


> ....When looking at the genetics, there was absolutely no difference comparing the local survivors to the commercial migratory stock. OTOH, when comparing genetics of the mites in those colonies, big difference.
> 
> Final conclusion, it's not the bees, it's the mites that are different....
> 
> .


I honestly ignore more and more all the smart words said by the smart people.
I guess they need to earn their paychecks.

The black box approaches and observations - work plenty well.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Resistance of Primorsky bees was discovered in Far East Russia, then confirmed in US, then confirmed in Central Europe, then Finland...
> 
> Bee genetics, that is the answer.


Agreed Juhani.

(Sarcasm ON). 
Mite differences - of course they exist. Why wouldn't they?
Just like the bee differences.
But yes, Primorsky bees should have all died by now in the US due to the mite differences they encountered here.
Mites in the Far East are surely different some - they did not bring those to the US along with the Russian bees.

Mites' migratory nature and continuous mixing is fully attached to the same of the bees.
I don't know why even talk of different mites - it is un-measurable and un-traceable pretty much.
For sure mites are not static in time and place.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

GregV said:


> It is not the corn/soy field that define the special location.
> It is the presence of already naturally adapted bees - that what defines the special location.
> 
> Jason Bruns (a swarm chaser from Indiana) tells very well how many feral bees are actually present in the corn/soy Indiana back country.
> ...


I'll fill you in on how that happen in this area. One of my mentors that past away in 2010 age 92, and kept bees since he was 13. Maintaned 10 colonies, sold nucs each year( had not bought bees in several deacades) was Highly against any treatments including AFB. He was the person responsible for teaching me on how to raise AFB resistance. 2009 I took 12 splits from my best colonies and got the Queens bred in his area. Then divided those up amongst my yards at that time. So, yes I riding the momentum of this area. 
When Randy Oliver was here in 2012 writing a article for ABJ on neonics(july12 ABJ). One of his first Questions was how are you setting these colonies up ? My response was "put bees in box, add or subtract space when needed and make sure colonies stay Queen right. Otherwise leave them alone. R.O. so just good old fashion beekeeping, nothing new. No, Holy grails or secrets. Lol.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Tim Ives said:


> Wait what? Total nonsense. If this beekeeper was truly TF, he would know how to deal with AFB, without treating or Burning the colony.


Oh, he was truly TF, extreme version of, dedicated Dee Lusby follower.

In fact his belief and committment was so fierce, that when his hives all died he just could not reconcile his beliefs with reality, and got mental issues.

The problem with TF beekeepers who think their bees can "deal" with AFB, is they don't consider that bees have already been TF for thousands of years, but still get AFB. Proving the theory wrong right there.

AFB achieved a natural balance with bees, killing hives and spreading from one hive to another. But hives were widely spread, wax moths did their work on dead remains, and bees swarmed enough to keep the wild populations going.

That all changed 150 years ago with the introduction of the moveable frame hive and the later introduction of the combustion engine, which completely changed how beekeeping is done. Commercial beekeeping is now done in a way that greatly favors the spread of AFB, AFB has way more advantages than it did when bees where in a wild setting, the balance has been tipped in favor of AFB.

Destroying infected hives removes those genetics, achieving the same aim that TF people are always talking about in regards to mites.

Yes, there are some hives that will throw off an AFB infection. But never all hives.

What do you say Tim, to all the beekeepers who's bees have never been treated for EFB, but are losing hives to EFB? How does that work?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tim Ives said:


> ....So, yes I riding the momentum of this area....


And good for you.
Treating in your location would only be a set back for such great bees.

A matter of fact, people in some places should not be treating either (they probably just don't know it and assume otherwise).
And of course, there are totally opposite places too.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Leo Sharashkin says some of the things we discussed above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll0hlf-O184

Like it or leave it.
There are places, like mine, where you just have to introduce some outside bees.
Saturation by the unfit imported packages just kill the sustainability for us here - the Italians, the "almond bees", and such junk.

BUT the import of the desired qualities IF done properly could actually function here well and long-term.
TF bees with appropriate winter hardiness should be a welcome import.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

F


> inal conclusion, it's not the bees, it's the mites that are different....


I would love a link to the study if you could find it 



> Interesting experiment A Novice, I hadn't heard about that one.


sounds like Seeley 2016 
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0150362


> Bee genetics, that is the answer


yep, but I noted that in there opening presentations At Apimondia bolth Sam Comfort and kirk Kirk Webster were putting management and environment on par or above genetics... 

W


> ait what? Total nonsense. If this beekeeper was truly TF, he would know how to deal with AFB, without treating or Burning the colony


Too funny, all we need to look at is Jacob Wustner’s presation at the Organically Managed Beekeeping Conference last year https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPn-uUmbZwY
OTs post 304 is on point..
with the exception that I disagree with the casting shade at moveable frame hives, Sam Comfort does that a lot, and it bugs me… 
Its quite clear from Quimby’s writings the foulbrood out breaks predate frames.. 
Hive gets weak and gets robbed… now its every were in the yard, no swapping of frames needed to cause the issue. I would argue the start of shipping of queens (with candy made with honey) is the engine of the spread


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

GregV said:


> I honestly ignore more and more all the smart words said by the smart people.
> I guess they need to earn their paychecks.
> 
> The black box approaches and observations - work plenty well.


Comment reminds me of this meme.










No point even going any farther down this road, folks have their mind made up and no amount of evidence to the contrary will make them re-think. See this a lot in aviation forums when the flat earth believers show up.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

grozzie2 said:


> Comment reminds me of this meme.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Let's not get personal now and start tossing personal insults.
I was not.
Was I insulting anyone, especially you?

Smart me.

As far as the subject - it is getting too old to keep following all those knee-jerk reactions' based "science reports".
Some researchers are prone to announce something they just discovered/invented - before anyone else did.
Being first at all cost.

Treat - not treat - treat differently - different mites - different bees - ......whatever, I don't follow the pop-culture science too closely so to keep adjusting my life-style to them on monthly basis... 
I think I made that clear enough.
Back to basic beekeeping and done with.

Black box approaches are better for most basic practitioners - no mandatory need to understand the detailed mechanisms (pretty much not understood anyway - now it is the mite variation is at fault as proposed - so what am I to do about it? Anything?).


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

grozzie2 said:


> See this a lot in aviation forums when the flat earth believers show up.


 I dont know grozzie, from 10,000' msl the earth does look pretty flat, especially once you get into the midwest.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

We need buttons for Like, Funny, etc.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

The earth is NOT flat. If it were, cats would have pushed everything off of the edge by now...


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

...


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

GregV said:


> Not necessarily so.
> Again, do not be afraid to run "throw away" large hives (such hive can be supported by extra 1-2 nucs).
> 
> You have to have the "propagation/expansion" branch.
> ...


Greg, that makes a lot of sense.

It won't work for me, though, as I am limited by ordinance to 2 hives.

I run them as 2 queen (sometimes 4 queen) hives, without any great success, though my bees are alive, and I hope to take 4 queens with bees through the winter. I got about 60 pounds of honey, and that is all I really need. I feed more than I should probably, but if I lose a colony I don't want it to be due to starvation. If October is warm, they go through a lot of stores.

I don't doubt if I was keeping bees for my livelihood, I would do things a lot differently. Meanwhile, it treat more than I would like, and it seems effective. I don't do a lot of monitoring of mite levels, as with the long robbing period we have, I have had my hives go from almost no mites to heavily infested in two weeks. I suspect most of the hives in my area are from first or second year wannabee keepers, who have heard about treatment free, and have a couple of packages of Italians from California. They make excellent mite bombs. I live in one of those sprawling midwestern US suburbs, with no commercial beekeepers within 10 miles or so.

Also, with only two hives, I really can't develop genetics favorable to treatment free, as my sample size is too small to make intelligent decisions. I might get lucky, but I probably wouldn't know it. There is too much randomness in beekeeping. Far too many unknowns.

It is instructive to look at some of the research Randy Oliver has done. He is unusual, in that he gives you the results warts and all, not trying to hide the ugliness in the data, which most researchers do.

When you look at that, you see the large variation between seemingly identical hives - sister queens, mixed bees, etc. One produces very well, the one next to it dies.

Unless you have at least 30 hives, I do not think you can infer much of anything from your success or failure in a given year, (provided they don't all die by early July or something as dramatic as that) Looking for something 20% better isn't possible, as there is so much noise in the data.

As a result, beekeepers are a superstitious and opinionated lot. (Makes me fit right in).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> ......
> It won't work for me, though, as I am limited by ordinance to 2 hives.
> .....
> I got about 60 pounds of honey,
> ...


I do recognize the ordinance problem and how counter-productive it may be.
My original limitation was ONE hive per a backyard.
Well, that hindrance pushed me in the direction of establishing several bee yards (a good strategy, regardless; I am glad I did this).

Guess what - the ordinances are subject to change.
Ours is now SIX hives per a residential backyard - took me some foot-work, talking to few people, and attending few City Council meetings, and a good luck of having a fellow beekeeper on the City Council.

I find my physical limit to be about 20 units.
Beyond that it is hard to manage and need more equipment.
But that it is what you need to strive for - for basic redundancy and eliminating the dependency on the treatments.

Agreed - running just 2-3 hives make your options very limited.
To console you, I got just about the same amount of honey harvested from all the hives I have now - well, the multi-directional program is expensive in resource costs - bees need honey too.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> The earth is NOT flat. If it were, cats would have pushed everything off of the edge by now...


As I drove my daughter to her 6am cross-country practice this morning I thought:
- Hmmm.... for all practical purposes of my daily life - The Earth is FLAT and only slightly hilly.

Indeed, this over-used cliche of the "Earth NOT being flat" is getting old.
Only 0.00000001 of the Earthly population have use and care for the special, nominally spherical shape of our planet.

Population of Nepal, in general, spend their entire life on the slopes of various degrees and have entirely different perspective about "what IS the shape of the Earth".
I don't even know what they think about the subject (I did not Google).


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

GregV said:


> Only 0.00000001 of the Earthly population have use and care for the special, nominally spherical shape of our planet.


Not entirely true! Every pilot (and I imagine sailors as well) knows that the shortest distance between two points is an arc, not a straight line. This is due to the curvature of the planet. Just something to mull over and argue about with your math teacher.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> Not entirely true! Every pilot (and I imagine sailors as well) knows that the shortest distance between two points is an arc, not a straight line. This is due to the curvature of the planet. Just something to mull over and argue about with your math teacher.


That # does include the pilots (0.000000... whatever - the point is - this is a *very small #* in terms of universal population)
No, I did not forget the pilots as well as most everyone concerned with the long-distance and high altitude navigation (space flight professionals, for example).
Ok, toss in few climate-concerned professionals/researches too, for a good measure (since the global air movements are affected by the Earth not being flat).

My math is fine for the purposes of the given topic, otherwise.

Interestingly - there is a whole branch of applied science that include topography and geodesy - with these sciences largely concerned how to represent the actual imperfect Earth surface onto the idealized, *flat projections* (i.e. paper maps).
I could only pull a B in my applied topography class, no matter how much I love much more idealistic geometry and trigonometry...
Fun, but also hard and borderline boring stuff.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

JWPalmer said:


> I dont know grozzie, from 10,000' msl the earth does look pretty flat, especially once you get into the midwest.


It's all a matter of perspective JW. When you sit there at 10,000, push the 'make noise' handle as far forward as it can go, then lift the nose. When the altimeter reads fl450 take a good look out front. For most dramatic effect, you want to be westbound over the ocean looking into a sunset (it will be rising if you have a fast airplane).



JWPalmer said:


> Not entirely true! Every pilot (and I imagine sailors as well) knows that the shortest distance between two points is an arc, not a straight line. This is due to the curvature of the planet. Just something to mull over and argue about with your math teacher.


It wouldn't be much of an arguement with a properly qualified math teacher. They would immediately point out, for short distances, measuring strait lines and/or doing 2d trigonometry on a mercator projection map will be close enough. Not correct, but, close enough. But after some distance comes into the scenario, then you need to upgrade and use spherical trigonometry to get a correct solution for distances, and when projected onto a globe rather than a flat mercator projection, the great circle is indeed a strait line. But then if you want to get really persnickety, earth is not actually a sphere and great circle math still gives an error on the order of 1% for long distances that are not essentially north/south/ This is why a gps uses WGS84 standard to calculate distances, the spec for an oblate spheroid that represents the shape of the earth mathematically and provides distance solutions to an accuracy of 0.01% over any distance.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

GregV said:


> I honestly ignore more and more all the smart words said by the smart people.
> I guess they need to earn their paychecks.


this all started reference my comments about what I heard from folks doing genetic analysis. Your interesting response is nothing more than a slur at 'smart people' implying that you know better.



GregV said:


> Indeed, this over-used cliche of the "Earth NOT being flat" is getting old.


And then this.

And folks wonder why Beesource content has been going downhill so much over the last couple years. This makes it pretty obvious.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

grozzie2 said:


> And folks wonder why Beesource content has been going downhill so much over the last couple years. This makes it pretty obvious.


Sadly there is a whole new generation of 'know it alls' with YouTube University PhDs. 
I can't speak for another soul, but it has surely put a dent in my participation.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Grozzie, you are of course correct. 'Cept my little O-200 Connie won't ever see 12,500 on the altimeter, much less FL450. Now for a really great view, video from the Dragon Lady at FL700 is really cool.

As far as YT degrees and such, even a broken watch is correct twice each 24 hour period. You just learn to ignore it the rest of the time.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

GregV said:


> The black box approaches and observations - work plenty well.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

grozzie2 said:


> This is why a gps uses WGS84 standard to calculate distances, the spec for an oblate spheroid that represents the shape of the earth mathematically and provides distance solutions to an accuracy of 0.01% over any distance.


Philosophy is an asterisk to Plato, and physical science an asterisk to Newton.


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