# How to administer fumigillin?



## allrawpaul (Jun 7, 2004)

My fumigillin didnt come with an instruction sheet. Can anyone help me with the directions for its use? Thanks very much, Paul.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

paul: are you feeding it now? It is kinda late for that as the temps are dropping.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

allrawpaul said:


> My fumigillin didnt come with an instruction sheet. Can anyone help me with the directions for its use? Thanks very much, Paul.


Lets use the advertised 2.0 gram bottle (medium size) as example. It makes 20 gallons of syrup. Don't get hung up on reading the label as it mentions 21 mg of fumagillan Base per gram, etc. Just keep in mind that the net weight of the entire bottle product is 96g. It makes 20 gallons. So to mix 5 gallon batches, shake the entire bottle out onto a paper plate and use a knife to cut it into four equal piles. Add one pile to 5 gallons. 

The smaller bottles (.5 g bottle) is for a 5 gallon mix.

The larger bottles are easy as long as you have a digit kitchen scale that you can measure out 25 g. The bottles are 454g by weight. Always figure by measuring actual weight. 25g of actual product makes 5 gallons.

The confusion comes when you start mixing the items descriptions they sell by (.5 gram bottle, 2.0 gram bottle, and 9.5 g bottle)

Look at the actual weight in the upper right hand corner of the bottle. (medium bottle net 96g, large bottle Net 454 g.) And measure that weight out. Net 25 g per 5 gallons.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=1518


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

My post above is for fumagilin-B

http://www.mannlakeltd.com/catalog/page37.html

And if two supply sources have conflicting information, I usually stick with the one that gives the more stronger kick. No sense choosing the one that has the weaker medication instruction and thus possible not enough to be fully effective.  And its easier to figure amounts based on multiples of 5 rather than 6.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

According to George Imerie either way would work, just depends on how good you are at math or need to treat colonies in multiples of 5 or 6:

"Fumidil-B comes in 3 different size containers: the smallest is enough for about 6 gallons of syrup, the middle size is enough for about 20-24 gallons of syrup, and the large size is enough for about 95-115 gallons of syrup.. Obviously, the largest size is the cheapest cost per colony to buy. I keep my fumidil in my home freezer all year around to protect it from deteriorating by time and warmth."

http://home.comcast.net/~pxbacher/PinkPages/2002_Sep_-_What_About_Wax_Moths.html#Part2


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

WVbeekeeper said:


> I keep my fumidil in my home freezer all year around to protect it from deteriorating by time and warmth."[/url]


WVB, How do you get the time to stop in the freezer.


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## allrawpaul (Jun 7, 2004)

Thanks for all the help! I didnt realize that I would have to feed 2 gallons of syrup! Probably too late for that Chef Isaac, your right. I will put it in the freezer and feed in early spring. My bees dont seem to have trouble with it right now anyway. Maybe they wont get it too bad this winter as I am using the granulated sugar above the cluster to reduce dampness.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

allrawpaul said:


> Thanks for all the help! I didnt realize that I would have to feed 2 gallons of syrup! Probably too late for that Chef Isaac, your right.
> 
> Allrawpaul, you also can spray it on in heavy dose, for a quick blast.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

Keith Jarrett said:


> WVB, How do you get the time to stop in the freezer.


I was quoting Mr. Imirie from the accompanying link I provided. Since he kept it in the freezer year round maybe he put his bees in there with it in order to medicate them?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Why such a difference in amounts? 20 to 24 gallons, and 95 to 115 gallons. Thats about a 20% difference in medication strength. And people wonder why beekeepeing is so screwed up. Can't even agree with publish data on medication levels.  A real shame.

I would feel better if it was 95 OR 115. To suggest that its about this or about that, gives the impression that its no big deal, just mix whatever. Kind of like saying, one strip, four strips...it don't matter. FGMO every week or every other month, it don't matter. 

They obviously tested the prodcut within a certain level for effectiveness. I wonder why as an industry we settle on mixed instructions, mixed amounts, and never demand better.

Oh well....


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BjornBee said:


> Why such a difference in amounts? 20 to 24 gallons, and 95 to 115 gallons. Thats about a 20% difference in medication strength. And people wonder why beekeepeing is so screwed up. Can't even agree with publish data on medication levels.  A real shame.



Well Bjorn, I hear what your saying, and had this talk with Gene.

Let me ask all of you this. When you treat, do you shake all your bees out to scale them so you know how many your treating?

What's the difference between treating 7 frames of bees or 14 frames of bees, with the same dosage?

Do you top hive feed, open feed ,hive entrance feed, ect... This all matters too.

So here we are again spliting hairs.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Keith,
And with all those other variable coming into play, maybe it would be wiser to lessen the one variable that we can, that being how to mix it.

Your commenting on step 2 through 5 or issues 2 through 5. I'm talking step one. That being the people who sell the stuff and the fact that two can't even agree on dosage, let alone get clear instructions from the manufacturer.

But if your suggesting that because of frame differences between hives, that we should accept the fact that no clear instructions are on the label or included in the package, that two distributors say two different, only shows how screwed up the industry is.

Do you accept that same logic in ingredients you use to make your patties? 15% protein, 30% protein, does it not matter? Or would that be considered as you say "splitting hairs"?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BjornBee said:


> Keith,
> >>But if your suggesting that because of frame differences between hives, that we should accept the fact that no clear instructions are on the label or included in the package, that two distributors say two different, only shows how screwed up the industry is.
> 
> I hear you Bjorn, and you would think that they would be the same. I also think that we keepers are dealing with hives that have a wide range.
> ...


My patties are to formula (precise) BUT, what changes is the dose in the field. I split each hives apart and give them according to size.

When feeding syrup, do any of you do this?? My guess is not. Do we not go off an avg, OR do some of you only fill the feeder half with syrup ?

So to some extent we are comparing apples to organges, when at the application stage, I beleive so.

When feeding syrup I go off the avg.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> My patties are to formula (precise) BUT, what changes is the dose in the field. I split each hives apart and give them according to size.
> 
> When feeding syrup, do any of you do this?? My guess is not. Do we not go off an avg, OR do some of you only fill the feeder half with syrup ?
> 
> ...


What your comparing is not apple to oranges. You comparing apples to fish.

To argue or discuss HOW much(volume) medication is one thing. What I'm discussing is the dosage amount. What does it mean how much medicated syrup you make up, or how many bees are treated, if the dosage is not sufficient to actually work. You should make up the treatments with enough medication to actually TREAT bees, then discuss amounts of syrup to feed how many bees afterwards. Again, your on step two, all the while missing the point I'm making about step one. 

Are we to assume that if you "water down" the formula and mix double the sugar syrup that its as easy as just feeding twice as much syrup? I don't think so. My point was that there is a 20% difference in medication amounts(strength) per treatment (what bees eat) with 95 and 115 gallons of syrup made. Are you so sure this makes no difference? I know it does for many other treatments and recipes.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BjornBee;274659]What your comparing is not apple to oranges. You comparing apples to fish.

LOL... Keith

> What I'm discussing is the dosage amount.

I know what your saying Bjorn, this does not make sence to me either, but I don't have a answer for you to you as why there different.


One would think with the dallor amount in play that this would not be acceptable.
Then you have, back yard, off label thymol receipes, $.10 VS $2.00 a gallon.

I don't know what to say other than, GO FISH.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith:

I heard something similiar from a sideliner beekeeper. He said the easiest and most effective way to feed fumagilian is to mix a big batch and pour some in a garden watrer spout container and break the two chambers up and pour a little on the top bars. 

You do this?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

BjornBee said:


> My point was that there is a 20% difference in medication amounts(strength) per treatment *(what bees eat)* with 95 and 115 gallons of syrup made. Are you so sure this makes no difference? I know it does for many other treatments and recipes.


I wonder if there may be a bit more latitude with this medication then with others? This has been an interesting discussion, and it got me thinking about the distribution of the syrup to the bees in the hive.

If treating your bees in the fall, it's my understanding you will be offering about 2 gallons of medicated syrup to the bees, at some varying degree of product dosage. 

But at this point in the season the bees probably already have fair amounts of fall nectar coming in or already in the hive. Is the medicated syrup actually being "*consumed*" at this point, or is most of it being distributed and *stored *throughout the hive and mixed in ( diluted ) with existing nectar in open cells? If this is the case then it seems that there would be a very wide range of "concentrations" of the end product scattered about the hive in storage for consumption at a later time, making minor variations in initial dosage of little impact. 

Just some cold weather ramblings..


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> Keith:
> 
> I heard something similiar from a sideliner beekeeper. He said the easiest and most effective way to feed fumagilian is to mix a big batch and pour some in a garden watrer spout container and break the two chambers up and pour a little on the top bars.
> 
> You do this?


Chef, what you can do if your hives are very heavy is,

9.5 bottle fumagilin to 45 gal syrup, then 4oz per hive trrickle method.

This will only give them a short blast but will help them.

What I do is thymol in syrup in open feeding. This way the syrup is filled from the bottom up. Most of the time all around the brood chamber, right where you want it.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>"consumed" at this point, or is most of it being distributed and stored 

I agree.

That bring the reason why there is mixture differences between spring feeding of this medication and fall feeding. Spring feeding is ment for immediate ingestion, and fall feeding is intended for ingestion late winter when its needed. 

The measure of the medication has to based on the operations average hive size, shaking the weak out as you go of course. The way I beekeep, and I think most ,others is to try to manage the operation so the hives are performing realatively the same strength at certain times of the year. If that hold true, then your dosage shouldnt be too far off as it is required.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith:

I forget to mention that he said to do it three times, once a week.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*K.i.s.s.*

I know its rediculous, but I still feed with four gallon square buckets.
With the truck loaded with buckets of syrup, one empty bucket, a jug of warm water, a pint jar & lid and a bottle of fumigillin, off I go....
Place four slightly rounded teaspoons of fumigillin in the pint jar and fill it 1/3 of the way with warm water. Close the jar tightly and shake vigorously for 20 seconds.
Dump the mix in the empty bucket.
Now dump in a bucket of syrup. Pour back and forth 3 or 4 times.
Now fill feeders.
If I get distracted or stop for some reason, I often will grab the empty bucket and mix the current batch a couple of times.
One slightly rounded teaspoon of fumigillin per gallon, mixed in warm water and then added to the syrup is my recipe anyway.
Pretty easy to remember.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Thats how I use to do it too harry, but I have to say I havent used square buckets. 

Now I mix in my tank as filling, administer the dosage accordingly. Saves a pile of time and mixes very well.


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## allrawpaul (Jun 7, 2004)

How many teaspoons of fumigillin make a gram? (Dont have a gram scale.) Thankds!


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## danno1800 (Mar 13, 2004)

*For Keith Jarrett*



Keith Jarrett said:


> WVB, How do you get the time to stop in the freezer.



Hop in one overnight, Keith, & I promise time will stop for you!!! [running, ducking & grinning!] -Danno


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

danno1800 said:


> Hop in one overnight, Keith, & I promise time will stop for you!!! [running, ducking & grinning!] -Danno


LOL, this place sure does make you laugh at times after a long day of bee work.

Can only say, bookem Danno


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

Fumigilin is great. The most crutial med to keep bees extreemely healthy. Increases honey production by more than 300%. I feed in october and february.


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## danno1800 (Mar 13, 2004)

*thanks, Keith!*



Keith Jarrett said:


> LOL, this place sure does make you laugh at times after a long day of bee work.
> 
> Can only say, bookem Danno


You got me with that one...haven't heard it since Hawaii 5-0!!! -Danno


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

allrawpaul said:


> How many teaspoons of fumigillin make a gram? (Dont have a gram scale.) Thankds!


This from Bee Culture Dec. 07; Kim Flottum:


1/2 teaspoon= 1.5 g Fumagilin-B [31.5 mg activity] * [activity spelled --"actively" in article]
1 teasppon = 3.0 g Fumagilin-B [63 mg activity] * [small g for gram missing from article]
1/2 tablespoon = 4.8 g Fumagilin-B [100 mg activity]
1 tablespoon = 9.5 g Fumagilin-B [200 mg activity]
2/3 cup = 50 g Fumagilin-B [1.05 g activity]

Despite the errors in article I hope the rest is correct.


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