# Mixing frames and top bars



## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

Anyone else mixing top bars and frames in the same hive? I'm moving toward using mostly frames in the broodnest and top bars for honey. I like the low cost and easy storage of the bars, but it is much more convenient to do inspections on frames. All of my hives take deep frames, so they can be moved from tbh to Lang and back with no problem.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

* sound of crickets * 

I haven't started as yet (still trying to capture wild bees).

Is your tbh a Tanzanian (straight sided?)


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

bentonkb said:


> Anyone else mixing top bars and frames in the same hive? I'm moving toward using mostly frames in the broodnest and top bars for honey. I like the low cost and easy storage of the bars, but it is much more convenient to do inspections on frames. All of my hives take deep frames, so they can be moved from tbh to Lang and back with no problem.


I have done it to make comb for another top bar. I saw a number of problems with this idea. 1: the honey comb can get attached to the side walls, 2: the top bars all touch and the bees glue them together, 3: if the bees can get to the tops of the top bars they will also glue the bars from the top as well, if not they will glue the inner cover to the first top bar.


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

I’ve run a mixture of frames and top bars in my Tanzanian-style tbhs. Here in Honduras I did the opposite of what you plan. I wanted the brood on top bars and the comb drawn naturally according to the bees’ desires. The honey, however, I wanted in frames with foundation and wire so I could use my extractor on them. It worked well.

I costumed made my frames with a wide top bar so everything would stay closed up when I removed the cover. I deal with Africanized bees so it helps to not have the gaps between frames. The frames were rather simple (no fancy joints) but held together just fine with the wires and then with the drawn comb.

In Wisconsin I also started some top bar hives with a mixture of frames and combs. The initial bees for these were from a Langstroth nuc, but the idea was to eventually eliminate those and have the brood on just top bars and frames for the honey. Here the frames were normal Langstroth deep frames. I didn’t worry about there being the transit spaces between the frames’ top bars since the bees were fairly gentle anyways (as in no Africanized bees in Wisconsin!).

This post from my blog talks a bit about the Tanzanian tbhs I had in Wisconsin. "Musings About Economical Beekeeping: “Hives for Nothing, Bees for Free” 

http://musingsonbeekeeping.blogspot.com/2014/12/musings-about-economical-beekeeping.html

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Tom


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

crmauch said:


> * sound of crickets *
> 
> I haven't started as yet (still trying to capture wild bees).
> 
> Is your tbh a Tanzanian (straight sided?)


Funny, you.

Yes. It is a 45" long box sized for Lang deeps.

Good luck with your bee hunt. It is getting late in the season.


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

Tomas said:


> I’ve run a mixture of frames and top bars in my Tanzanian-style tbhs. Here in Honduras I did the opposite of what you plan. I wanted the brood on top bars and the comb drawn naturally according to the bees’ desires. The honey, however, I wanted in frames with foundation and wire so I could use my extractor on them. It worked well.
> 
> I costumed made my frames with a wide top bar so everything would stay closed up when I removed the cover. I deal with Africanized bees so it helps to not have the gaps between frames. The frames were rather simple (no fancy joints) but held together just fine with the wires and then with the drawn comb.
> 
> ...


Maybe you are right. I haven't really culled out a lot of comb, so mine are still just all mixed up. Next year I will keep a better eye on top bars in the brood nest and try to work in some more frames.

The gaps between the frames don't cause me any trouble at all. My bees are grumpy ferals, but certainly not as hot as AHB. I use a piece of fiberglass window screen as an inner cover. The bees propolize the gaps closed or make little channels under the cover. I just roll the screen back a little at a time as I work my way into the hive. It works pretty well to provide the solid cover of all top bars but allows you to mix in frames where you want to.


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## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

Hi, I just joined in and saw this post. I happen to be mixing frames/bars also. My reason was I bought a Lang nuc and I intend to convert to Long Lang when the colony is strong. I moved the colony to the new box last week. I have 5 Lang frames and the rest are top bars. I believe my lid is to close to my top bars and frames for bees to get there, so most likely I won't have any issues up there.


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## a_bee_in_az (Apr 11, 2016)

Just saw this thread.

Yes I have some top bars in my Lang hives. They have been nothing but trouble (and I really wanted them to work) - and I'm sure our 113 degree days this week aren't helping. The bees draw out beautiful full deep sized combs and then they fall. Specifically, they fall after inspecting them but not immediately... so I'll find that ones I did touch last time at the bottom of the hive OR on top of the frames below.

I hope someday to try a Kenyan style hive to see if the smaller comb size doesn't fix the problem. The ones I have now though are a constant rubberbanding nightmare. Breaks my cold little black heart.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Have a couple top bar hives and when one made swarm cells I put a couple bars in a lang. By the time I put the bars into the lang they'd had several brood cycles and were pretty hard. That was last summer and they're still in the lang. My top bars are trapezoid shape so the bees had to draw them out square in the lang. Not a problem and so far no regrets. 
I suppose I could trim them with a knife and put the bars back into the top bar hives but it's not bothering me enough to do anything now.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm not right now, but I have in the past.


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## Chuck Jachens (Feb 22, 2016)

Why not use all frames but go foundationless?


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

Chuck Jachens said:


> Why not use all frames but go foundationless?


I'm moving in that direction. I like how the top bars fit tight together so that you don't need an inner cover so I'm converting my top bars to no-gap foundationless frames. As I cull combs I'm replacing them with the converted top bars.

Yesterday I found that I was a little too late. There was a comb collapse in my biggest long hive some time in the past two weeks and the result was a lot of cross comb. I'm probably going to be culling a lot of comb out of that hive soon. It was too big a mess to tackle in one day.


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## a_bee_in_az (Apr 11, 2016)

bentonkb said:


> I'm moving in that direction. I like how the top bars fit tight together so that you don't need an inner cover so I'm converting my top bars to no-gap foundationless frames.


I really like this aspect of top bar hives, how the bees have a lot of privacy until I (the moderately paced 1st year) am ready for their specific area. Do no-gap foundationless frames exist? Is someone already doing this?

What I found was that when I put top bars into a Lang hive, it was actually a bit pain in the rear because lifting them out is very difficult when there is no space for the hive tool to lift under! (My top bars were the same length as a frame so they sat on the frame rail, not the box top)


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## buffaloeletric (Mar 11, 2010)

the bad experience with the top bars may be because the size of the topbar hive is so big. I have one that goes about 14 inches deep and it seems the combs want to break off easily. the other one i started not so long ago is around 10 inches deep and those combs seem to stay on alot better.


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

a_bee_in_az said:


> ready for their specific area. Do no-gap foundationless frames exist? Is someone already doing this?
> 
> p)


I don't think there is a commercial source of no-gap frames. Maybe there is a boutique producer out there somewhere.

They work fine in a Lang as long as you only use a few of them. Four out of ten in a box is no trouble. More than that and they are hard to get out. There is also the concern about reduced ventilation if they are tight together, but bees seem to figure out stuff like that on their own.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

I have been running 3 long lang hives (42 or 48 in) with either one or two lang frames, or mainly lang frames to start and slowly replacing with top bars.

1. The frames and top bars sit flat on the side of the hive - no recess to tuck lang frames into - and this can create places for robbers to get in, if you aren't very careful. I have been using a towel as the "lid" over the frames between the top bars. Ideally a piece of wood with a tab sticking down would be screwed to your frame, to make something solid like a top bar is; since my frames have bees, I'll skip the drilling required for now, and just use the towels!

2. The bees have been slow to draw out top bar comb when I have a "frame neighborhood" and a "top bar neighborhood". They draw comb beautifully when a few SINGLE top bars are surrounded by drawn out frames, or when a few frames are surrounded by bars. And the hive with majority of frames has LOVED the top bar frame insterted at the edge of the brood nest - drew it out lickety-split with drone comb (and worker and honey)!

3. I am getting a lot of side attachments, and a sprinkling of bottom attachments (not a screened bottom board). Still working on the best way to deal with that - last inspection I was using hive tool along the side, and pulling UP...when I heard a squeak. it was like the queen's pip. As you can guess I am in knots until I see eggs next inspection.  I may just twist from now on, if there are no bottom attachments, and see how that goes! It's bottom attachments that seem to resist pulling more. 

4. We've had 90 degree days, and 70 degree nights, but not much bearding and not yet a fallen comb in the hive. I have some that are pretty heavy too! ANd I've heard some pretty heavy fanning. I have 3 entrances on the narrow side.

5. for Ohio, which can have highs of 90+ in the summer and lows of -10 in the winter, the real test is how the hive design allows the bee cluster to move over winter. No data on that yet.  it's my first summer. I have 4 horizontal Tanzanian style top bar hives tho - data will be forthcoming!


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

I find that the way you cut the side connections determines whether or not they reconnect it. If you cut the comb flush with the side the bees will build it back just like it was before. If you cut through the comb about 1/8" away from the wall and scrape off the extra wax the bees will make fewer connections. Bottom connections only seem to happen when I leave a top bar in the same position for a very long time.


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