# Spin Float consideration



## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I am thinking about buying a spin float for next extracting season. I see first hand the pros of using one within an operation. How hard is it to integrate within an operation and how much maintenance do they require? I have been looking at the Cook and Beals for no other reason than they were the first to develop it. Besides the cost of such a piece of gear is there any other disadvantages to buying one?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

This was my first year operating one. The labor savings for us were incredible, it ran virtually flawlessly for us. I wasn't thrilled with the amount of water that the mister put in the cappings though. We pulled it apart early on and rechecked and resealed the pipe fittings also kept adjusting and lowering the pressure input but nothing seemed to change much. Perhaps the nozzle calibration was off, perhaps what we experienced was normal, I don't know. 
I was apprehensive about honey quality and the possibility of incorporating air into the honey coming out but I was really pleased with how the honey came out. Ran it for 3 months and only skimmed the bulk tank once at the end of the season. 
Don't forget to factor in the costs of the pump, heat exchanger and any wiring upgrades you may need. We also chose to go with SS piping and that stuff is scary expensive. All in all the upgrade from our Cowen spinner was a good one for our operation. We are considering the C&B melter to add to it next year, I have heard some good reports on it, as much as I despise melting wax while extracting the efficiency of doing so is undeniable.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I have one on order for next spring. I see guys operate here with these machines and it's amazing how it increases efficiency, with man power and increased honey yields.

I think one great aspect of this machine is it allows everything to stay above the floor level. No more sump pit. With all the health and safety standards rolling through sump pits create a tremendous amount of work to keep it up to standards. 

These machines also keeps the production area looking professional, which helps convince customers that your product is being produced under high standards.

I hate skimming wax!!!!

The cost is very prohibitive , these are just a few of the main reasons why I choose to buy this machine.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I highly recommend getting a pump with the variable speed electronic drive to feed it. It seemed to do a better job of seperating when you could adjust the volume to your rate of extracting. The 2" pump may be adequate for most operations I went with a 3" SS continental pump that C&B handles. It may have been overkill. We normally ran around 2,000 lbs. per hour. The spinner is rated for 3,000 lbs and the pump could easily handle it I have no doubt. If you are running a high volume of low moisture honey, though, I think you may be disappointed at the residual honey in the cappings. At 17.5% the spinner did an excellant job, much lower than that and seperating seemed to suffer.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

That's good to hear, I bought a used 3 inch continental pump. 
I hear the same about the separation of dry honey. That's a rule for the actual extraction out if the comb also.


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## AstroZomBEE (Aug 1, 2006)

They only drawback we have is the air bubbles in the honey, but my spin float separator is probably over 40 years old, we bought it used 30 years ago. So it's probably time for a new one. The amount of honey left in the cappings is exceptionally low compared to manually skimming tanks. and the knives chip it out in a very fine consistency which makes for easy transfer into out Cook and Beal cappings melter, which is another great product.


Aaron


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Does the C&B melter fit under the spin float to automatically capture the wax coming off the spinner?

I heard it doesnt work well with partially crystalized honey either. The one guy I talked to hear about it said he only turns on the misting portion just before the end of the day and then sets the knife in to cut off remainder before shutting it down the the day.

Is the progressive pumps really needed as part of the setup or could I use an auger style pump? 

Aaron why would you need a new one? besides an electric motor and a couple of bearings what else can get worn out on the spin floats?

The floor plan I see for the spin float being used is where all extracting is done upstairs. The honey flows into single sump in basement and then using a 2" pump its sent to the heat exhanger and then to the spin float. Is that the ideal setup or will it work well for single level setup?


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## AstroZomBEE (Aug 1, 2006)

BMAC said:


> Aaron why would you need a new one? besides an electric motor and a couple of bearings what else can get worn out on the spin floats?


I've developed more air bubbles in the honey than I have in the past, pretty sure it's coming from the spinner. I may be wrong, not sure. But the life expectancy of the machine has to be nearing its end, Im not sure how long they were designed to work, but I am highly satisfied with them.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Do you leave your spinner running continuously thru the entire extracting season or shut it off nightly?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We run it continuously from about 6 to 6 each day. Centrifugal force is all that holds the honey in the machine while it is operating so a power outage will lead to a pretty big mess on the floor. You "dump" the honey out and let it run a bit before shutdown at the end of the day. We rarely had problems, cleaned up only a couple messes the entire season. Both because of operator error. Pulled the drum just once early in the season to clean and check it out and then again at the end of the season for cleanup.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

" I wasn't thrilled with the amount of water that the mister put in the cappings though. We pulled it apart early on and rechecked and resealed the pipe fittings also kept adjusting and lowering the pressure input but nothing seemed to change much. Perhaps the nozzle calibration was off, perhaps what we experienced was normal, I don't know. "

We Stopped using the mister, puts way to much water into the wax, and spoils any honey there is there by fermenting it, didn't miss it


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

jim lyon said:


> At 17.5% the spinner did an excellant job, much lower than that and seperating seemed to suffer.


Jim did you try backing the cutter back. With dry honey the honey layer on the drum is deeper. Might need the cutter set at an inch or more if honey is really dry or cool.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

bmac - the C&B spin float works well on one level. The Cowen wax collection system does a decent job collecting the honey from the extractor and wax from the uncapper if you don't want to use a sump. I wish it would do a little better job of mixing the wax and honey. You need a progressive pump to pump the wax and honey to the heat exchanger.

We use corrugated suction hose with quick couplers for a lot of our piping. The transparent piping allows us to monitor honey flow more easily and the quick couplers help us drain the system in about 5 min (important with canola honey).


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Allen can you describe the Cowen wax collection system a bit? I looked on Cowens website and only see a pricing of 4800 bucks for the system. There is nothing on there that describes it or the way it works. They may build good equipment but their marketing is lacking a bit.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Allen Martens said:


> Jim did you try backing the cutter back. With dry honey the honey layer on the drum is deeper. Might need the cutter set at an inch or more if honey is really dry or cool.


We experimented pretty extensively with it and talked with Pat and Shane as well about their recommendations. We would cut it back as far as possible before dumping at the end of the day. Then back it off considerably at morning start up. Once it started cutting wax we would gradually turn it back in using the fineness of the wax as our guide. As soon as it started getting more course we would increase the distance a bit. Seemed it ran best at just under 1". We would (as much as possible) keep the water supply turned off any time there wasn't honey being pumped into the spinner. Perhaps Irwin is right about not using the water. C&B refers to the water as a cooling jet, it is supposedly calibrated for somewhere under a gallon per hour, seemed like more than that to me. It also seemed, during the times it was left off, that the cappings were noticeably heavier with honey. Perhaps I am expecting too much and there is no perfect system, at least not one that runs at that volume. The gains in general honey house efficiency were incredible, I would never go back to a Cowen spinner which consumed so much of our time through the course of the day, but cappings quality and the inability to salvage any melter honey suffered as a result. ****ed if you do and ****ed if you don't I guess.
We run everything into a heated floor sump, it worked well, though we found it beneficial to occassionally agitate it with a hoe to keep the head from getting too dry. I am not sure what you gain with a dedicated wax collection system.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Jim wouldnt the progressive pump rewet any the top of the wax as its all being pumped thru the system to a heat exchange?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

BMAC said:


> Jim wouldnt the progressive pump rewet any the top of the wax as its all being pumped thru the system to a heat exchange?


While we are actively running there are never problems. What would happen, though, is that when the sump sits still and isn't being constantly replenished the wax and honey will seperate. When the pump kicks back on it, of course, first pulls the liquid off the bottom and if too much dryer wax remains then it dosent flow well and the suction pipe may find an air pocket. A quick stir solves the problem.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

"am not sure what you gain with a dedicated wax collection system"

I just bought a used honey wax collection auger mostly to keep all my plumbing above floor level but they say it also helps keep the heat exchanger from plugging as it sends an evenly mixed honey capping mixture through the system


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

"They may build good equipment but their marketing is lacking a bit."

Isn't that the truth! And that usually goes with anything sold to beekeepers!!
But I'm sure most machinery is sold on a word of mouth basis as we all gaulk over each others honey house set ups


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Very true Ian. I love going in and seeing what other beekeepers have for equipment and how their honeyhouse is setup.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian said:


> "They may build good equipment but their marketing is lacking a bit."
> 
> Isn't that the truth! And that usually goes with anything sold to beekeepers!!
> But I'm sure most machinery is sold on a word of mouth basis as we all gaulk over each others honey house set ups


I have gotten to know Nate a little the past couple of years. My take is that, just as his dad and grandpa before him, is a very bright and innovative guy, he wants what he sells to be perfect and he wants to hear suggestions for improvements. Its quite an operation they are running, they have some great employees but I think they get overwhelmed with orders at times. It should be noted that he does take the time and effort to haul his systems to trade shows and interact with beekeepers and answer questions there as well. I was surprised to see the changes in their web site, I am not sure there is as much info now as with their old site.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Jim sounds like you have a good understanding of the C&B. I would not change to anything else on the market from what I have seen but this machine has required the biggest learning curve amongst all the equipment in my extracting line for me. 

bmac adding to Ian's description of the wax collection system. I augers the honey back from the extractor to the uncapper. The honey and wax mixture are pumped from the bottom of the hopper.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

So how long is the system? Right now I have mine archaic setup with my uncapper 10 feet away from my extractors with a 8 foot long uncapping tank sitting between uncapper and extractor just to stow frames waiting for next spinning.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

It can be custom made for any length. I think the version made for the 120 extractor would have an auger at least that long. My Cowen 60 is almost 15 years old and required a slightly different length than the 60's they were making several years ago when I bought the wax collection system. Not sure if there would be much resale value in a length that was to far from standard or how well you could incorporate a nonstandard length into an upgraded system.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

"was surprised to see the changes in their web site, I am not sure there is as much "

I don't want to sound critical, because I'm not at all. I'm a man who loves constructive criticism and useful feedback. And I also love to give it!! Lol

In this day and age there is no excuse not to have a developed web page. Our farm has a web page, and not perfect, it does provide our cattle customers with that extra bit of info to satisfy curiosity. We need to do more of course but we are striving to tap into all those potential "new aged" cow boys in bringing them into our farm to help them understand what our farm is all about and sell them on our herd management practices. Buyers who understand our management practices are more likely to become dedicated buyers. We are selling our farm as a Brand. Developing that brand take a lot if time and exposure.

I can see tremendous opportunity with some of these companies but then to the point you raised Jim, they are already overwhelmed with sales. Sometimes all you need is a good product and it sells itself!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Allen Martens said:


> Jim sounds like you have a good understanding of the C&B. I would not change to anything else on the market from what I have seen but this machine has required the biggest learning curve amongst all the equipment in my extracting line for me.


That makes me feel a little better....I guess. I have spent years in a commercial extracting room so I always figured I had a pretty good feel for how things operate but when I brought that C&B separator in I just really felt uncomfortable with it. You put a slurry in the top and stand there and wait to see what comes out the bottom. Yes you can control the rate it enters, the temperature it enters at (I was told 100 to 105 is ideal) and the cutting depth and thats about it. Some claim the drum should be pulled regularly for cleaning and others say thats a waste of time. Then there is the issue of the water. I wish I'd had someone with your experience to help me out for a few days so that I would at least understand what defines normal.


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

I am with you there Jim. I have had my spin float for 5 seasons now and still wonder if I am operating it properly or at its optimum.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Gregg said:


> I am with you there Jim. I have had my spin float for 5 seasons now and still wonder if I am operating it properly or at its optimum.


That was going to be my reply.

I've had it for 4 season and at times I fell like a novice.

Last year my was dropping very wet. Cleaned the drum twice - I usually only do so once or twice a season. Tried this and that and nothing seemed to work. Finally called C&B and they suggested to back the cutter off some. Worked nicely. I don't know if the belt stretched or something else created this change. I think I was trying to cut a little deeps. Won't call myself an expert for a long time.

These discussions are very useful.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I especially find these conversations useful as I have only seen a true large commercial operation while NOT in use. Set aside that I feel like I need to learn what a more optimal setup needs to be and with how many operators inside. I am looking at extraction going from 400 to approx 1400 colonies this next fall and I want to be as prepared for that chaos as best as possible.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

I only run the water when the knives are cutting and the last hour before shut down. no need to cut to deep i start with the knives all the way out (handle screwed in) add gallon water at start up back out two turns capping come out powder dry. all honey and capping go into a sump with a float,( you can pick out any foreign objects before the pump finds them) and pumped out with a 2 inch pcp to the heat exchanger warm to 105 degrees. I take the drum off only once a year but clean it out every nite by hand after cutting the wax down at the end of the day.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

David how far do you cut the wax down at the end of the day? Are you doing this after you dump the honey?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

davidsbees said:


> I take the drum off only once a year but clean it out every nite by hand after cutting the wax down at the end of the day.


Are you referring to cleaning the wax out of the sump by hand?


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

"" but clean it out every nite by hand "

yes please elaborate on this...are you scraping the inside of the drum every nite??

we ALSO ADD one gallon of boiling water at every morning startup.....canola honey granulates quickly, overnite when in a thin layer on drum.This would become a daily occurance after extracting for a couple of weeks and the nites are cooler.At this stage of extracting we are pulling the drum at once aweek to clean, get rid of granulation


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I kept the water valve off as much as possible but when you are extracting at the capacity of a 120 frame system and you have dialed your pump back a bit to eliminate surges there is going to be honey pumping in most of the time. I found myself thinking that an electronically controlled water valve that is activated when the pump kicks on would be a good thing.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

At the end day I cut the wax till you hit honey then dump. There will be about a 1/4 -1/2 inch of wax left in the drum which I remove by hand. Having sharp cutter blades are a must I sharpen mine twice a year. I run my 2 inch Myono pump at the slowest speed I think it runs 50% of the time, if the honey is cold or low moisture less then 15% I will heat the sump. On a good day we can run 750+ 6 5/8 (8 hour day including clean up 16-22 barrels) with a 30 year old 120 cowan. 3 beeks bought their 120's at the same time in our area some are on there 3rd machine I just repair mine. I have though about adding a solenoid valve on the C&B to the pump control but on the to do list.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

My C & B extractor is a 82 or 84 model 120 , bought it used, replaced the drum a couple of years ago,old drum was wore out and not stainless steel,new one is.Lots of repairs when you run older equip but it has served me well.Thinking of upgrading.Still remmber my first load thru it, pump seemed to run for days.......alot of weight going around in there on the first spins,stood there in awe at the amount of honey coming out of the 2" hole into the sump.Good info here ,thanks fellows


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Alright. So I am gearing up to order one from C&B. 2 other problems I have now. Im kind of tight on budget so I can't really afford to buy all new equipment. So along with the spin float I also need to move the slurry to a heat exchange and to the spin float itself. So I have been thinking about using an auger vice progressive cavity pump, mostly because I think I can have one built onto the bottom of my current uncapping tank for a few hundred bucks. Please give me your thoughts on custom creating say an 8 foot long auger.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I bought a used progressive cavity for $2000


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I have seen new ones, but havent seen too many used ones. Besides how are you collecting all the cappings and honey into 1 sump for the pump?

Also what are you using for a heat exchange?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I dont know if I understand your question.

Im in the exact same boat as you BMAC, Im investing into this strategy of separating my wax and honey.

Ill tell you what I have done to adopt this method to make it work. Your right, it costs money but keep in the mind that a lot of things in this business can be done as a "hybrid" version, but other things are best to have done the "suggested" way right from the start.

My extractor is a 60 frame Cowen, I previously used a 5 foot cappings auger and an old drum spinner, and I would skim the sump and bulk tank daily.
So to eliminate all that wax work I decided to go with a spin float. 
With advice from a local beekeeper who had incorporated one of these machines earlier, you have to set your system up in a certain way. 
#1, you need to mix your cappings and your extractor honey evenly
#2, you need to have a mechanism to be able to pump cappings/honey mixture
#3, you need a heat exhanger to keep the separation process uniform and quick
#4, you need the separator. 
After the seperator is your bulk honey tank, and bulk cappings barrel. 

I bought a cappings / honey collecting unit which pulls the honey horizontally from the extractor into the cappings tank where as it is mixed into a slurry. The theory is the honey and cappings are evenly mixed before the pump. My progressive honey pump pushes it up to the ceiling and then over to the heat exhanger, which then drops into the spinner. Another pump takes the finished product from the spinner into my bulk tank.

Im using the heat exchange unit from C&B them selves. You see I have bought the spinner and heat exchanger new from them. I have spent alot of years scraping wax waiting for the opportunity to make this investment. Im going to be handling over 200000 lbs of honey annually, I need an efficient system of handling wax. Not to mention, all the hoeny I have been leaving in my cappings would easily make my payment.

Im sure your aware of the entire process but thought I would pass on my thoughts on getting this system set up. I dont see any other practical way of making the system work. The entire system pretty much works off the pump that is able to move solids within the suspension.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I am aware of what needs to happen, but the only setups I have seen is extractors above bulk tanks by 1 floor. So all slurry runs into large 150 gallon sump then is pumped with progressive cavity to heat exchange to spinner then back to finished bulk tank. 

What is this "cappings / honey collecting unit" and how much do those cost. I see C&B wants 6k for their heat exchanger.

I would like to have the entire new part of the system setup for under 10K. I already have multiple bulk tanks. Possibly repositioning my uncapper and extractors into a different configuration with a wider sump would be the answer to centralized collection point. 

How would you go about blending the wax honey into a slurry? Use a standard 110 blending paddle?

I see C&B radial plan layout which is nice and gives me some direction:
http://www.cooknbeals.com/img/floor/plan4.gif


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)




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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BMAC said:


> I am aware of what needs to happen,
> What is this "cappings / honey collecting unit" and how much do those cost.


It is sold from Cowen, cappings drop into a tub which the honey is pumped into from the extractor by an auger for mixing before pumping. The advantage of this unit is that there is no need for a below grade sump pit. I have my extraction set up all above floor level now

which ever way you look at it, you need to mix , pump and heat the slurry.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

I though pics is the best way to show my system.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Hey thats great. David, Ian; I appreciate it. Im a little tight on room so i think I am going to get a little creative with a custom slurry sump that will accomodate both my uncapper and extractors. That shouldnt be a problem though. Unfortuantely I am trying to get this all done inside a 20 * 27 foot area. Im afraid its going to get a little tight in there.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I hear you, the easy way to solve solutions is to spend money.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

New to this interesting thread. What does the heat exchanger do.? Also is there any feedback on the Maxant 
Continuous Wax Separator in comparison to the C&B and Cowan systems. I am looking to build out a system this year and learning which one to get would be good.


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## Brian Suchan (Apr 6, 2005)

The maxant works fine without heat from heat exch. As long as ur not pushin huge amounts of honey through it. Lots cheaper than C&b


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

EastSideBuzz said:


> New to this interesting thread. What does the heat exchanger do.? Also is there any feedback on the Maxant
> Continuous Wax Separator in comparison to the C&B and Cowan systems. I am looking to build out a system this year and learning which one to get would be good.


heat exchanger warms the honey just before it flows into the spin float. They have some commercially available but they are just as much as a spin float. I am building my own this winter and testing it out. Hopefully after that i can afford a spin float.


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## honeyhunters (Sep 15, 2015)

Hi guys, I have the C&B honey-wax separator and I was just wondering if you guys have any tips for cleaning it out. When I've gone to clean it out the wax in the drum in solid and not the easiest to get out so if anyone has any suggestions please let me know.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

honeyhunters said:


> Hi guys, I have the C&B honey-wax separator and I was just wondering if you guys have any tips for cleaning it out. When I've gone to clean it out the wax in the drum in solid and not the easiest to get out so if anyone has any suggestions please let me know.


The longer it sits idle, the harder it is to clean it out. I've found cleaning it out immediately upon shutdown shouldn't take one man with a hive tool more than about 20 minutes.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

honeyhunters said:


> Hi guys, I have the C&B honey-wax separator and I was just wondering if you guys have any tips for cleaning it out. When I've gone to clean it out the wax in the drum in solid and not the easiest to get out so if anyone has any suggestions please let me know.


I clean mine once a week. I pull it out with a small lift, swing it over and tilt it for easy access. Just a matter of using a box scraper and wax into the melter


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## honeyhunters (Sep 15, 2015)

Ian said:


> I clean mine once a week. I pull it out with a small lift, swing it over and tilt it for easy access. Just a matter of using a box scraper and wax into the melter


How many boxes on average are you putting through a week before you clean it out?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

1200-1500 per week


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## honeyhunters (Sep 15, 2015)

Okay thank you for the information mate!


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

But it depends on the type of honey you run through it. If you run honey that granulates easy then you have to clean it out more frequently. My brother extracted about 450 barrels without pulling out the drum once. And I ran about 1400 barrels and my crew pulled the drum twice. But we don't have any granulation issues at all. Oh and we start each day with 30 seconds of hot hot water before we push any honey in.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ya I clean every week because the canola honey starts to granulate and plugs the baffles


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Our experience is much like babybee. We cleaned ours out once in about 3 months of extracting. Once it wouldn't "dump" at day end. Not being in the mood for a big mess at the end of the day I turned the speed down to 200rpm's, gave it some extra grease and let it run overnight. When we cleaned it the next day there was still some honey in it but the wax remained mostly suspended away from the outside wall. It was a pretty quick and painless clean out and we were up and running within the hour.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

Yeah sometimes after shut down its wise to take a nail and clean out the dump valves. Wax or pupal skins seem to built up and plug the dump valves so as to not allow the honey to empty at shut down.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Even after a week, that bottom ring of wax just along side the baffles gets pretty hard. I built a drum puller out of tubing and a winch. It takes me 5 min to pull the drum out. Half hour total job.


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