# Cost efficient nuc boxes / 6 frame nucs and making money with them



## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

Next spring when I plan on making splits, I have the option of using cardboard nuc boxes from one of the major supplier's or plywood (making them myself ). 

I made some 5 frame 3/8" nuc boxes in 2016, and they work pretty well, but not very sturdy without nailed on bottoms and not as large as I'd like, so I'd use 6 frame 1/2" boxes instead.

I have heard good things about cardboard nuc boxes, as well as plywood. 

Thinking about the pros of each:

Cardboard 
- easy to assemble
- cut exactly to size
- lightweight/easy to move

Plywood
- can be cut to any size,
- stackable (not very high, but 2 would be enough for a nuc)
- last longer (I'd assume so)
- can be overwintered in (I wouldn't in cardboard)
- home depot will make 2 cuts for free, with ¢25 per extra cut here, so not much work.
- 4 can be made from each sheet of ply, so very cheap


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## emrude (Mar 23, 2015)

Do the beesellers in your area provide a nuc? Down here, you go to the beeyard and the beekeeper will put 5 frames of bees in your box. You should sell the same way as other beekeepers. 
I have been trying to weight the different ways you can increase your bees and hives. 
I am going put together plywood nucs. I am building for myself. If I decide to sell nucs, I'll get some of the cardboard ones. That way I can sell them to people who don't have any way to move the bees. 
Also, around here we get four cuts free at home depot.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Sell 4- or 5-framers, not 6. You still have a half colony to work with if your sales suddenly drop off, and all your drawn combs won't go flying out of your apiary so fast. Tops are commercial tops, you'd only make 1/2 inner covers to overwinter your own, not for sale.

Do make a ventilated, 12" tall, 6-frame nuc' for queen rearing 15 or 16 queens at a time, all season long, unless your apiary is big enough to make a Michael Palmer-style "bee bomb" queen rearing colony...


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

I have heard a lot of *****en about Mann's last year. I have never used them.


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## Geno (Apr 23, 2015)

My-smokepole said:


> I have heard a lot of *****en about Mann's last year. I have never used them.


Mann Lake changed their design for Nuc boxes. The old boxes were great, the newer boxes work, but will not have the longevity of the earlier revision. This is just an opinion due to my location being hot and humid during the summer.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Cardboard nuc box are around $8, for basically packing material, IMO they have out priced themselves. 

If your making them to sell, I am sure your customers would appreciate a plywood box that they could reuse. 

Exterior house siding is about the same price as ply, it sometime comes with one side painted. glued (liquid nail) and screwed (small drywall screws) they will outlast a 100 fold a cardboard box. 

They take time to make (I figured it out one time maybe 1/2 hour per box when doing a bunch), you could charge a deposit, many customers will be happy with the box and keep it, which could be an additional income. If you make a lot of nucs you probably don't have the time, you most likely already have a customer base possiable commercial and keeping cost down is more of a concern. 

>home depot will make 2 cuts for free, with ¢25 per extra cut here, so not much work.

Both HD and Lowes will do more and most of the time they don't nickel and dime you as long as you don't go over board. The problem is their cuts are off and not square. I get them to rough so I can handle the wood on my table saw by myself (a full sheet, or 16 ft lumber requires two people). 

You could try both, give your customers a choice, I suspect most will take the wood nuc box.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Go with the plywood, charge a reasonable deposit for it. Say... $20. So if someone wants to keep it they can. If someone wants to bring it back they can. If they keep it, it buys you another sheet of plywood.

Win-win.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Many of my customers are just starting out and need everything. They don't have the box to bring, which is fine. I make and sell everything you will need to get started. And my prices are cheaper than if you buy and need it shipped. 
I do make the Coates boxes and they keep them. I don't offer to buy them back, or deposit thing. It can be a double edge sword. On one hand for me, it would bring them back and they may buy more products, but the other side, they may bring me a box that has been abused and weathered outside without the top, etc... 
All my nuc buyers get a brand new box, looks neat and clean. I just think it's better that way.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

In my experience plywood does not hold up as well as a good old fashion 1 by even when painted. But they are better than cardboard by a long shot.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

all depends on your plans for the nuc (swarm control and then recombine, sales, overwintering, etc)
if your over wintering, go with 3/4" ya it costs more, but it has 50% more insulation then 1/2" and 100% more then 3/8", when your talking nucs that's a BIG deal with early spring build up and overwintering
You said you liked the idea of 6 frame for some more room, what is the advantage of that compared to building Palmer's and run 4X4 or 4X4X4?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Here's a link to a thread about this topic:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?330992-2017-nuc-transport-box-preferences

























Insert tight fitting foam on the bottom screen when in use, Remove the foam when bees are confined for transport


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Here's that sized box in use. 









Made out of economical cedar shorts from my local mill. It was cheaper for me to buy these over plywood and I got a better product that will have a longer life. My climate is very rainy and plywood will not work well here. I got 40 boxes out of this small unit. I rolled them with boiled linseed oil to keep them from absorbing rain while I had them in use here and to cover up some water stains, etc from being stored for so long. Shorts were 24" so width of the transport box was determined in part from the best usage without waste. Cut in half + a little trim off the mill edge gave me 11 3/4" width.

I wanted to keep the construction simple to keep costs down, but not to the point of producing a junky product. Corners are rabbeted. Boxes are square, glued, well stapled and tight.

















Before rolling with linseed oil. You can see some of the water stains I mentioned. Rollign with boiled linseed oil was fast and easy. A gallon cost me just under $30. with tax, but it went a long way. 









About half my customers say they wish to purchase these, half say they will being back for return of deposit. Going to charge about $50. extra for these which includes the feeder. That will be the deposit and will be refunded if box in brought back within a _reasonable amount of time and in good shape_. No dog chewed, no weather beaten, no mud splattered. 

My area has a fairly high cost of living, so these are prices my local market will bear.

I also have quite a few Mann Lake cardboard nuc boxes left over from last year I will be using up. My customers will have a choice between the two. I won't purchase more manufactured nuc boxes though until they get their design flaws figured out. You can figure about $2.00 more in cost if you use those boxes for the hot melt, screen if you vent them better and the rolls and rolls and rolls and rolls of duct tape which won't stick well and is time consuming to fiddle with.

After going from the 5 minute assembly of the old style nuc boxes to 20 minutes each for the new, the time I spent for the wood assembly was justified, not to mention a better product.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Tenbears said:


> In my experience plywood does not hold up as well as a good old fashion 1 by even when painted. But they are better than cardboard by a long shot.


The trouble with 1x nucs is the cost. At least that's my opinion.

I can make 4 or 5 plywood ones for the cost of a single nuc. But I'm gravitating towards 1x nucs for anything I'm keeping. If I'm going to sell them they'll be in plywood nucs.
Have wintered them in 1/2" plywood successfully. So I don't really have concerns there. I know you should build the cost of the box into the sale price of the nuc, but there might be some sticker shock if you hope to fully recover the box cost.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

i do not think cardboard is any good at all for bee boxes!!! i started with 6 frame deeps for my own use, made with 1/2 plywood except 3/4 board ends, i like these a lot the right size. a couple of years ago i bought some assembled 5 frame nucs with the large plastic disc entrances from an amish shop. the price was below my material cost. the wood is all 7/8 thick white pine with a small screened vent on back. the first batch had the humble abodes depth of 9 1/2 inches, the dead bees collected in the bottom, not enough space for house cleaning. the second batch i specified "get them up as close to 10 inches as you can get out of a rough 1x10". at about 9 7/8 they are great, before painting i add a hole, screen and board to the top for a 1 qt. mason jar, i like this set-up. if i was selling nucs i might go with something plainer. the last time i figured it i was about $16 each including paint and the mason jar for the nuc boxes. the disc openings and feeder tops are being added to the original 6 frame nuc boxes as they need repair.... soggy cardboard makes no sense at all to me.


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## costigaj (Oct 28, 2015)

My Nuc supplier uses cardboard.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

Sorry, really didn't have the time last night to write all I wanted to.

My main point would be to use the equipment for our bees, as well as to sell them.
Maybe using them as mating Nuc's, overwintering in a pinch, even screening the open ends for a swarm cage if need be. Just general nuc use.



emrude said:


> Do the beesellers in your area provide a nuc? Down here, you go to the beeyard and the beekeeper will put 5 frames of bees in your box. You should sell the same way as other beekeepers.
> I have been trying to weight the different ways you can increase your bees and hives.
> I am going put together plywood nucs. I am building for myself. If I decide to sell nucs, I'll get some of the cardboard ones. That way I can sell them to people who don't have any way to move the bees.
> Also, around here we get four cuts free at home depot.


Haven't had a ton of contact with nuc sellers around here, know of only one or two places that sell them in MI. Most people I've heard of have packages shipped in, or the odd nuc or two sold here and there.

If I was to sell nuc's, it would be this way: bring your own box, I place the frames in (pretty much as you suggested) or even haul them to wherever the customer wants and place the bees myself (within a reasonable distance and for a modest fee)
OR: I would sell the box for a separate price, and place an empty frame in the box, customer pick up. (This all assuming that 5 frame nucs are for sale)


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> The trouble with 1x nucs is the cost. At least that's my opinion.
> 
> I can make 4 or 5 plywood ones for the cost of a single nuc. But I'm gravitating towards 1x nucs for anything I'm keeping. If I'm going to sell them they'll be in plywood nucs.
> Have wintered them in 1/2" plywood successfully. So I don't really have concerns there. I know you should build the cost of the box into the sale price of the nuc, but there might be some sticker shock if you hope to fully recover the box cost.


That is my whole reason for using plywood, is simply the cost. Cardboard may be fine, but after the mixed reviews, plywood may be what I'll use, because if it's junk that's on me, if the cardboard boxes fail, then what? Probably refund or replacement. Better to do it right the first time.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

msl said:


> You said you liked the idea of 6 frame for some more room, what is the advantage of that compared to building Palmer's and run 4X4 or 4X4X4?


The main reason for that is for a 4x4x4 nuc, that's 3 boxes, as opposed to 2 with the 6 framer. Cost is everything

And thank you Lauri, love reading your posts and seeing how things can be done.
Many people here are well to do, but trying to be fair can leave you spinning and wondering what happened with some people in my area.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beestudent said:


> The main reason for that is for a 4x4x4 nuc, that's 3 boxes, as opposed to 2 with the 6 framer. Cost is everything.


Why not just put them in a 10-frame box then?


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> Why not just put them in a 10-frame box then?


 this is what i do.... [this will stir the pot] one step further, i am not a medium fan, maybe ok if that is all you have. i wish i had all deeps instead of deeps and medium supers. a friend who has been at it to make a living for a long time runs deeps and shallows for honey, i am starting to really see his wisdom, i used a few shallows that i came across as part of a deal this year...... 4 over 4 over 4 in double partition deep boxes works real well for wintering nuc size colonies in the north, but to do this to raise nucs the rest of the year is not a step forward. if the bees are building comb the 4 over 4 [or over 4] in a divided box will give you wide comb,you will end up only getting 9 in when you try to transfer to a 10 frame box.... keep it simple and plan ahead.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

mathesonequip said:


> this is what i do. one step further i wish i had all deeps instead of deeps and medium supers. a friend who has been at it to make a living for a long time runs deeps and shallows for honey, i am starting to really see his wisdom.


I've thought the same thing one more than one occasion. All deeps would get a little heavy... which is about the only thing stopping me.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

beestudent said:


> The main reason for that is for a 4x4x4 nuc, that's 3 boxes, as opposed to 2 with the 6 framer. Cost is everything


again it comes down to your use, if cost ($$$) of wood wear was truly everything, KTBHs would be the norm...lol

as devils advocate, lets look at "costs" from a different angle and I am not saying I am right here by any means, this it to spur the discussion 

as a mating nuc a 6 frame costs more then the 4 frame and it costs more in resources to stock so your cost per queen is higher.
it could cost you production/growth as in "theory" (ask 3 beeks, get 5 answers) adding a 2nd story to a full 4f will grow faster then waiting for 4 full frames in a 6f to fill the last 2 frames, thats the point of a 5over5 vs a single10
it costs you an extra feeder as the Palmers share the feeder in the 1st converted 10f deep, and filling a 2nd feeder costs you time...
flip side is the bace box may cost more

there is no need to go 4X4X4 to over winter, 4x4 is said to be fine and should be much better then a single 6. once you go to a 6x6 to over winter your wasting frames... ie 8 6x6 or 12 4X4s are the same amount of resources, what is that early season and over wintered queen worth?
flip side is if you can reliability over winter single sixes the reverce is true

I have never hurd of 4x4 frames being "fat", so you learn something new every day

I rember some on in Canada(iirr) was puting 3 6f side by side and putting 2 10f with QEs and using the 3 queen hive to build up fast and make a crop..


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Here's my take, don't skimp on woodenware. If your boxes look nice, the overall impression of your product will be better. If you find yourself having to skimp a few dollars here and there to make it, you're in the wrong business or not pricing right.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

msl said:


> again it comes down to your use, if cost ($$$) of wood wear was truly everything, KTBHs would be the norm...lol
> 
> as devils advocate, lets look at "costs" from a different angle and I am not saying I am right here by any means, this it to spur the discussion
> 
> ...


I believe single 6 frame nucs may be able to be overwintered rather easily, even if it takes a small amount of extra work per nuc. This I will test next winter.

I am now planning on making plywood nuc's, and using them next spring. I may make them with 3/4" ply, but that increases the cost of the box considerably (plywood here is like $20 for a 1/2" sheet, $30-35 for 3/4".) So if I was going to that, pine costs about the same and could be used instead. 

>>>as a mating nuc a 6 frame costs more then the 4 frame and it costs more in resources to stock so your cost per queen is higher.<<<

If you place a frame divider in the middle of the box, that makes 2 3-frame nuc's, which you can make for less than a 4 frame, etc etc.
And anyway, the 'cost' per queen is very widespread. I have seen $15 queens, $30 queens, and even $150+ for "breeder" queens. That being said, I believe the cost to make each queen (most being calculated on the amount of brood put in) is about the same.


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## emrude (Mar 23, 2015)

What would your added price be for a nuc? If the five frames of bees cost $130(deep frames), what would the price of five frames and a plywood box be?
I can buy a plywood nuc for $17 or 1/2 inch pine plywood for $20 and make four nucs. If I charged $150, is that a fair price for local bees that are ready to grow into a hive?
Just wondering out loud.

Mary


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

emrude said:


> What would your added price be for a nuc? If the five frames of bees cost $130(deep frames), what would the price of five frames and a plywood box be?
> I can buy a plywood nuc for $17 or 1/2 inch pine plywood for $20 and make four nucs. If I charged $150, is that a fair price for local bees that are ready to grow into a hive?
> Just wondering out loud.
> 
> Mary


I made my boxes than posted photos and info on my facebook page. My readers started throwing out the $50. number for their guess as to what they would cost to purchase. I know how much they cost me to make, and how long it took to make them and had a rough idea of what I needed to get VS what I would like to get so I wasn't working for free. $50. ( remember that includes the Mann Lake frame feeder with cap and ladder) was perfect for me, considering the quality of materials and time with a more detail to fabrication that made them a little better than just OK, yet still keeping them simple and costs down. So it matters not to me if they keep them or return them. So far about half want to keep them, half will be returned for reuse. 

I think after the first season of use, these will be more popular due to local word of mouth because I can make them good and strong without the risk of suffocation while confined. It's not just the box that's better, the nuc in it will be prime.

If left a little too long (compared to a nuc in a cardboard box) and it has an emergence of brood before it is picked up, it can handle it. As shown below, a frame or two of emerged brood can quickly make a nuc go from nice to deadly in a confined situation if transport time is any more than a half hour or so. Even with additional ventilation, this nuc is way too full too confine.


5-2-15









Took it out of the cardbord and put in regular equipment 5-2-15









Here it is on 5-5-15. This kind of nuc is what gets me return customers, but not it if it's dead when they get home. Larger nuc boxes with better ventilation and extra room if needed will take care of that problem.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

When they get this full, the end sections, where there is usually a dead air space in the old style boxes, is packed with bees and no circulation is possible.
The new design has no dead air space. It does have a screened area on each end, but the frames are so tight that that screen is mostly blocked off. There's a trick to assembly and modification to make these better, but by the time i do all that, I may as well just make them out of wood. And if I am going to take the time to make them out of wood, I'll make them better.

Tight. 








end screens blocked for the most part









Now add bees and there's even less sir flow. 









Cut off one of the dog ears instead of folding up a mess of unnecessary cardboard and you make it a better frame fit

photo shows already removed flap








Add an extra vent in the lid. Easily covered while occupied and exposed when confined. Use hot glue gun for attaching screen. 3" hole saw to cut several at a time.






\

Here's a nuc, just confined for about 1/2 hour. OK, but starting to complain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jziUXPIV-0g


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## emrude (Mar 23, 2015)

Thank you, Lauri. I have followed your postings. I have worked as a woodworker and artist. Quality makes a big difference in both sales price and the willingness to buy. 
I was jealous of your pallet of cut off cedar. I wish I could score that in cypress. Right now price of cypress is $3 a board foot. I have about 200 board feet of 1x12, & 1x10s common pine boards. Still planning what I want to built for myself next spring and how much I want to increase my bees. I am in beekeeping because I have always have been fascinated by bees. Bees are a hobby for me. If I make a little money, so be it.  So far I am still spending money.

Mary


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## Eyeman (Oct 23, 2016)

> Cardboard may be fine, but after the mixed reviews, plywood may be what I'll use, because if it's junk that's on me, if the cardboard boxes fail, then what?


Cardboard nuc boxes are designed for transporting the bees/frames from the seller to the buyers yard. Cardboard is not designed to be left outside, exposed to the elements for any length of time.


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## 3cav84a (Jan 5, 2017)

G'day, I used to make my own nuc boxes but I now use these, www.ecrotek.co.nz/hive-ware/smart-nuc-full-depth-5-frame-complete-w-accessory-kit.html
They are cor flute material and the bees don't mind them.


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## 220 (Dec 28, 2016)

Only new but have been building nucs for future expansion from 10mm (3/8") ply offcuts I have picked up free. Have been ripping 4x1.5" pine offcuts to give me a strip to nail/glue top and bottom giving a standard 7/8" width to make stacking easier and more stable. 
By chance I discovered the foam vegetable boxes that are used in Aus are almost the exact same size as the external size of a 5 frame nuc. Perfect for a bit of insulation if Im over wintering in them.


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## 3cav84a (Jan 5, 2017)

220 good idea I will look into that, thanks


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

beestudent said:


> Haven't had a ton of contact with nuc sellers around here, know of only one or two places that sell them in MI. Most people I've heard of have packages shipped in, or the odd nuc or two sold here and there.
> 
> If I was to sell nuc's, it would be this way: bring your own box, I place the frames in (pretty much as you suggested) or even haul them to wherever the customer wants and place the bees myself (within a reasonable distance and for a modest fee)
> OR: I would sell the box for a separate price, and place an empty frame in the box, customer pick up. (This all assuming that 5 frame nucs are for sale)


Here's the part of the thread that's concerning. From what I can tell in the various posts you've had bees for relatively short time and are making plans to sell nucs come spring with limited knowledge of the local market for nucs. In fact there are lots of folks selling nucs. I can name three all nearby without even thinking about it and that's just from little sideliners. I'm not even counting the commercial outfits selling semi loads of nucs/singles after returning from almonds. 

I'd suggest first making sure you have a market come spring. Secondly, there's basically two nuc markets---early season ones either brought up from south or nucs that over wintered here and later season colonies with freshly mated northern queens. About 50% of the people want nucs made right into their equipment and 50% want cheapest nuc box possible to take home and transfer themselves (in other words most could careless about the box)


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

oppsss. Hit the send button before I finished. If you are primarily using nucs for yourself, definately build boxes. I've got piles of cardboard boxes that work good in a pinch and actually take some pretty nasty weather if you throw a top in them but they'll never be a real box that us going to hold up to beekeeper use. I essentially use them as mating boxes when I'm out of equipment and they can be handy for moving a few frames from place to place. 

Plywood is decent cost effective route but expect it's going to warp like crazy on you eventually. 3/4 less so but I was looking at yard of someone else's bees over holiday and they all had 3/4 " covers that were twisted in all directions. If you don't keep your nuc equipment out over winter it'll be less of an issue. 

I get your idea of a six frame box with room for a divider to make two 3 framers but it's still odd size. I've basically gone away from nuc boxes myself. I try to do as much as possible in single deeps and not spend my resources on specialty nuc boxes---eventually the bees are going to end up in one anyway. Figure no reason to waste time putting it into nuc and transferring, etc. Only reason I'd consider building quality nuc box would be if I intended to overwinter nuc sized colonies vs singles.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

For you guys that sell a lot of nucs. Do you usually provide the frames with no trade in and the box. How much of the nuc price (say $150) is just the bee part. I saw a break down on a differrent thread but for the life of me, can not remember where. I bought a hive of two mediums and 20 frames and I think one of the boxes was mine and one came from the guy I bought it from. I paid $200 for it but also did not get it transfered to my house untill sometime in june. If I look at the cost of equiptment, The guy I bought the hive from couldn't be making much. If you bought just the 20 frames built with foundation it is probly $3.50 a frame.

What is the actual profit margine on selling a nuc?
Cheers
gww


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Why don't more beeks sell packages locally? You're giving up a cheap screened box (could put a deposit on it if you wanted it back) get to keep your comb while helping with swarm prevention for a little less money than nucs. After pondering on the situation for most of the winter, that's my plan for offloading extra bees this year. Am I missing some drawbacks?


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## emrude (Mar 23, 2015)

Nordak said:


> Why don't more beeks sell packages locally? You're giving up a cheap screened box (could put a deposit on it if you wanted it back) get to keep your comb while helping with swarm prevention for a little less money than nucs. After pondering on the situation for most of the winter, that's my plan for offloading extra bees this year. Am I missing some drawbacks?


You might be on to something.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I'll try making a Baltic birch ply / steel rule die and trimming political signs to size like that. Hope I still have access to the flat press...I wonder if the bees prefer Trump or Hillary signs?



3cav84a said:


> G'day, I used to make my own nuc boxes but I now use these, www.ecrotek.co.nz/hive-ware/smart-nuc-full-depth-5-frame-complete-w-accessory-kit.html
> They are cor flute material and the bees don't mind them.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

kilocharlie said:


> ..I wonder if the bees prefer Trump or Hillary signs?


You know what the Russians prefer.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I wonder if the bees prefer Trump or Hillary signs?

They both smell like BS... better to stick with local politics...


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## appalachianoutdoors (May 16, 2015)

They both smell like BS... better to stick with local politics...[/QUOTE]👍


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