# Queen Excluders - The Debate Continues



## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I'm no pro but I've been using them off & on for decades. I'll often put them on with the first round of "wet" ( drawn) supers to keep the queen from laying in them. The bees roar across them, like they aren't there, to get to the residual honey film. It's something a mentor taught me when I was first starting out. She was right. I usually remove them when the next round of supers goes on - they just get waxed & propolised in if left all season. It's easy enough to tip the supers up & slide the excluders out. 

When I was running 70 -80 hives I didn't bother with them. It was just one more time consuming task that wasn't a necessity. With 5-10 production hives it's not such a time consuming job and makes harvesting go smoother. 

& You're right - the debate continues...


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

There are gazillions of threads on this in BS. Seek and ye shall find. Personally, sometimes I use them other times not. Just depends on the mood I'm in when placing supers.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Well... Ask yourself what your trying to do, then use the tools at hand ( excluders being one tool ) to achieve your goal.


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## b'sbees (Feb 16, 2013)

I haven't used them for about three years now but changed that this year. My queens always seemed to wonder into the third box (first super) where I didn't particularly want them. It does make it easier to narrow down where your queen is i the hive. Just make sure you keep the brood chamber as open as possible during swarm season. If you put a little sealed brood in the super over the brood chamber and excluder, you'll draw some of the congestion upwards which may aid in swarm prevention.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm not a pro, but if I didn't use excluders it would be even harder for me to make the time to harvest my honey - I would have to run fewer hives. A lot fewer.


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## Barhopper (Mar 5, 2015)

Also not a pro but I use them through the summer the remove them in the fall. In the winter the bees move up but I run them down in the spring. I haven't had the "honey excluder" experience that some say will happen.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

The answer is maybe a little more nuanced than "Use them!" or "Don't!"

What is your management style, are you producing comb or liquid honey, how intense is the honey flow? Since you are a hobbyist (6 hives, right?) you really don't need to do what the pros do, you can play around, experiment and develop your own style.

Here, we have a pretty intense honey flow that starts around mid July or so. So, we could probably get away with not using excluders, since the flow starts fairly late. BUT we produce cut comb honey so we do not want a wandering queen getting in one of the supers. We use excluders.

If you do not care if there is brood comb in your supers then don't bother. But even when I made mostly extracted honey I preferred the nice light colored wax in the supers, so I used the excluders. 

But, if you want to use honey supering as a part of swarm control; to give the queen extra room to lay early in the year, then maybe you would forego the excluders. 

Maybe you have a long slow honey flow and you don't want to mess with the excluder. 

There is no right answer. Luckily you have enough hives, but not too many, that you can play around with it and find out what works best for you.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

We only use them for raising queens.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

snl said:


> There are gazillions of threads on this in BS. Seek and ye shall find.


Absolutely! This has been discussed SO much here. The search results will keep you busy for a long time. I personally feel there's very little new information to add. For the record, I'm a strong advocate for using them. Do your homework and learn to use them properly, or else you'll quickly become a member of the "honey excluder" crowd! If you've got a few hives, and you don't mind sorting frames at harvest, then don't use them. Regarding damaging the bee's wings, I think this is totally a non-issue. I've never seen evidence to support this.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

AstroBee said:


> Absolutely! This has been discussed SO much here. The search results will keep you busy for a long time. I personally feel there's very little new information to add. For the record, I'm a strong advocate for using them. Do your homework and learn to use them properly, or else you'll quickly become a member of the "honey excluder" crowd! If you've got a few hives, and you don't mind sorting frames at harvest, then don't use them. Regarding damaging the bee's wings, I think this is totally a non-issue. I've never seen evidence to support this.


Couldn't agree more, there really isn't a debate in my mind, also lets not forget one can always leave an entrance above the excluder to expedite entry and help with ventilation in the heat of the summer. Excluders alter a hives behavior in some ways and small hives will rarely breach them but anyone that thinks a determined bee can be slowed down with one should open a large aggressive hive, put an excluder on the top and count the seconds before the excluder is covered with bees. For us, the excluder has become an invaluable tool in keeping hive beetle issues at bay in the extracting room. If you segregate your extracting supers and keep them free of brood and pollen then hive problems in boxes of honey awaiting extracting virtually go away though we still maintain a 4 day rule.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

4 day rule?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> 4 day rule?


Make sure boxes of honey are extracted within 4 days of when they are removed from the hives.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Listen to Jim Lyon and Ian. The excluder is a valuable tool when used properly. 

Crazy Roland


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

jim lyon said:


> Make sure boxes of honey are extracted within 4 days of when they are removed from the hives.


LOL! I still have 10 boxes sitting in the kitchen since Sept/Oct. Oops. I'm bad.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I have a number of them that I use for various reasons but rarely to keep the queen out of the supers. They're handy tools...again, see the numerous threads here for lots of info. My most common uses are discovering where the queen is by isolating her and seeing evidence of her laying. Also, keeping the queen in one box while I'm making a split so I don't accidentally include her in the new colony.


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## bluescorpion (Sep 6, 2012)

As a newbie I learned this lesson the hard way. I had two mids full of honey and just didn't feel like extracting the honey on that particular day. About a week later I went to my storage building and found that the temp. in the building was just warm enough for the wax to give way under the weight of the honey and ALL OF IT ran out all over my floor. Lesson learned. I extract the same day I take the honey off. No excuses.... :doh:


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

I just have one view on the excluder issue - ever see one on a wild hive??? enough said - unless your making comb honey


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I've never seen a wild hive use excluders either, guess I better rethink this whole strategy


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

sakhoney said:


> I just have one view on the excluder issue - ever see one on a wild hive??? enough said - unless your making comb honey


Never seen a wild hive get fed 1:1 sugar water either yet most beekeepers do that. Or get OAV treatment, or ....... They have there time and place. Just depend how you and what you want to manage your hive for.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Ian said:


> I've never seen a wild hive use excluders either, guess I better rethink this whole strategy


yeah right! you won't spend 1 NY second rethinking this. and rightly so.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

sakhoney said:


> I just have one view on the excluder issue - ever see one on a wild hive??? enough said - unless your making comb honey


Ever seen two or more wild hives right next to each other? Ever seen a wild hive in a box? In North America? Feral perhaps, wild no. Ever eat eggs from a wild chicken or milk from a wild cow?

Sorry, but that argument is nonsensical because bee aren't wild animals now that we have transplanted them far from their natural habitat, and exposed them to parsites and diseases from all over the world.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Groundhwg said:


> Never seen a wild hive get fed 1:1 sugar water either yet most beekeepers do that. Or get OAV treatment, or ....... They have there time and place. Just depend how you and what you want to manage your hive for.


Never seen a successful profitable beekeeper not do at least one of these things. Natural is often cruel and doesn't care about your bees.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

until man made introduced pest - mites, SHB. ETC Feral bees did just fine without the help from what you described - Just sayin. - Oh and David - yes I have seen 2 Feral hives side by side - Did a cutout from an old house years ago - 1 hive in the external wall and where a inside wall went into the house was another one. Both using the same shotgun hole for an entrance. What a mess


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## yotebuster1200 (Jul 28, 2013)

I read a study ( dont have a link, if I find it I will post the link ) where they took 3 groups of hives. 1st group had no excluder and bottom entrance, second has excluder and bottom entrance, and 3rd had excluder and top entrance (I think they had a small bottom entrance as well). They balanced the brood in all the colonies and let them do their thing. After the experiment the hives that had the most honey and the most brood was the group with the queen excluder and the top entrance. They found there was honey below the excluders but only enough to raise the brood the rest of the brood boxes was full of brood.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

yotebuster1200 said:


> I read a study ( dont have a link, if I find it I will post the link ) where they took 3 groups of hives. 1st group had no excluder and bottom entrance, second has excluder and bottom entrance, and 3rd had excluder and top entrance (I think they had a small bottom entrance as well). They balanced the brood in all the colonies and let them do their thing. After the experiment the hives that had the most honey and the most brood was the group with the queen excluder and the top entrance. They found there was honey below the excluders but only enough to raise the brood the rest of the brood boxes was full of brood.


http://beesource.com/point-of-view/jerry-hayes/queen-excluder-or-honey-excluder/
The main problem with using qe's for honey production is that too many inexperienced beekeepers just don't understand when they should be put on. If you have a large populous hive thats ready for a super of mostly drawn comb and is poised to make a honey crop, they will roll through an excluder like its not even there. However the smaller the hive, the slower the honey flow and the less drawn comb you above the excluder, the less inclined a hive is to breach the excluder and the greater the chance a slow flow could end up leaving the lower chamber honey bound. I think Mr. Hayes is pretty much on the mark here though its just one test in one circumstance. I have run excluders side by side with and without top entrances and I haven't observed the dramatic difference in honey crops he documents here. I don't doubt his findings as they relate to this one honey flow scenario. If you do leave a top entrance there can be an initial danger of robbers finding a "wet" super placed above it before the hive has an opportunity to occupy the space. In many situations it is better to close off the top box for a day or so before giving them an upper entrance. Personally I like to see the lid cracked just a bit so that bees can at least circulate air up through the hive, though I have no problem with an entrance up there as well.


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

Well said Jim. I have noticed some hives consolidate their brood nest better than others. I wintered 15 hives with 1 deep and 1 medium. No drawn comb for supers. Started putting on supers with foundation in March. No Queen excluders . Some hives by Mid April had 4 supers and drawing and filling like crazy. Then reality set in. Queens won't cross honey barrier .....maybe not but workers do move nectar as it is drying. Planned a warm day to extract 4 weeks ago. 13 out of 15 had brood all the way to top super. Had to shake all of them down, then put on excluders ( no fun for me or wife) Lesson learned 2 out of 15 isn't worth not putting on the excluders when they need to be put on. I want and work hard to get the maximum honey I can get. I take very good care of my bees just need to get better with management and it is all on me.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

If they are already moving up, impeding that movement upwards through the excluder is nearly impossible.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I have excluders on a couple hives right now.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I consider QE's a necessary evil - a tool for certain circumstances. Some queens like to wander, and I prefer to extract supers that haven't had brood laid in them. Bees will will roar through a QE when the super above is "wet" with last years' honey.

QE's are tool. I would rather have them than not.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Colobee said:


> a necessary evil


:scratch: What exactly is "evil" about them? 

I see them as a godsend. I certainly couldn't do what I'm doing without them.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

'Just another piece of equipment to store. Another manipulation. Not all that bad - like I said - I'd rather extract frames that haven't had brood in them. 

I get more use from them as "vermin" excluders - on the top & bottom of stacks of supers. So yeah - not exactly "evil"...


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Colonies of bees are individuals and different breeders bees react differently in a stack of bee boxes. Some colonies and stocks are very content to lay in the bottom primarily, most lay heaviest in the second deep and the queens I am buying now lay up the center of five deeps if occupied and available. 

If your supers are sticky with last years honey, the bees go thru excluders like they aren't there. Drawing foundation is another story! Hard to get done. Those people who let the neighbors bees rob out their supers also may have problems getting bees thru excluders. Using excluders involves a skill set that can be acquired. Extracting around brood can be done too. Your choice.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Vance G said:


> Colonies of bees are individuals and different breeders bees react differently in a stack of bee boxes. Some colonies and stocks are very content to lay in the bottom primarily, most lay heaviest in the second deep and the queens I am buying now lay up the center of five deeps if occupied and available.
> 
> If your supers are sticky with last years honey, the bees go thru excluders like they aren't there. Drawing foundation is another story! Hard to get done. Those people who let the neighbors bees rob out their supers also may have problems getting bees thru excluders. Using excluders involves a skill set that can be acquired. Extracting around brood can be done too. Your choice.


Which is exactly consistent with Jim's comments:



jim lyon said:


> The main problem with using qe's for honey production is that too many inexperienced beekeepers just don't understand when they should be put on.


QEs are a tool. Learn how to use it.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I Little Bit off the subject - but how do you store stickie supers?


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