# Condensation: Curse or water source?



## mrspock (Feb 1, 2010)

My developing understanding informs me that winter condensation is undesireable, and to that end, I've planned to build a warre-quilt for my lang.

Today, however, I read an analysis that suggests that condensation is a necessary winter water source for bees: 

It can be read at: http://beenatural.wordpress.com/natural-beekeeping/observations/condensation/

If I understand the article right, by building a "breathing" roof for my bees, I may be condemning them to a winter of thirst.


I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on condensation.


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## concrete-bees (Jun 20, 2009)

a lot of condensation is bad if you have a freeze and thaw winter

what i do is have a shim above the inner cover about 1 inch and pour sugar on top the inner cover - the dry sugar soaks up the exess water and the bees store and or use the sugar water


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

It seems that both methods work. A lot depends on where you live. Some regions are very moist and the ambient moisture when combined with the water given off by the bees can drive the humidity in the hive higher than the bees find comfortable. In other areas, like Dennis' and mine, lack of moisture can be a problem for bees trying to liquefy hard honey or dilute it for feeding larvae.

In my experience, good bees can do just fine in a dry hive or one with condensation, as long as the water does not drip. 

Many northern Europeans do not use top entrances and they winter quite well.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When I had bees in the Panhandle of Nebraska, I didn't have any condensation issues (dry climate). When I moved to Southeastern Nebraska (moderately humid climate) I had to put in top entrances or the condensation would drip on the bees. It depends on your climate.


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## Damonh (Mar 20, 2008)

mrspock,
Thank you for the link....The article was very interesting.


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## SwedeBee1970 (Oct 26, 2008)

I'm thinking a slightly pitched inner lid would do the trick to divert the drip flow enough to allow the excess water to run down the side. Besides, doesn't the honey they consume have some amount of moisture ? And doesn't the warmth of the cluster give off enough heat to keep the inside above freezing ?


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## mrspock (Feb 1, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> When I had bees in the Panhandle of Nebraska, I didn't have any condensation issues (dry climate). When I moved to Southeastern Nebraska (moderately humid climate) I had to put in top entrances or the condensation would drip on the bees. It depends on your climate.


Alberta is an odd place, climate wise. The climate is dry all year, and cold in the winter. In southern Alberta, our winters consist of a yo-yo between -30c and +5c from Oct to May, due to a regional phenomenon known as a "chinook".

Right now it's +10c outside. In two weeks, it will probably bliizard and drop to -20c.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/condensation/

Here is one experienced Beek who works bees in cold climate. Very interesting, he has photos to show how condensation works.


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## bannonb (Aug 24, 2012)

I saw that article before.

He's in Wyoming where it's really dry. I'm in Colorado where it is also dry.

I'm not really sure what to do about it other than stand pat with a standard inner cover and telescoping outer cover.

I've provided a barrel of water that refills on my drip system every week and I've only seen a single bee in it one time...not sure where they get their water but it's not here (neighbors have complained a bit


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## tabby (Jul 11, 2012)

How close is your water barrel? I have water gardens and a plant tray a few hundred feet from the bees and they are there constantly, but they ignore the same water dish when it is right in front of their hives. I'm a bit north of Denver.


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

My thought was to build a candy board from 1 x 4's. Put wire mesh across the bottom, lay a sheet of newspaper on it and fill it up with sugar. I will leave a hole in the center for moisture to escape. Then I will put an inner cover above this with the center slot left open, blue insulation with a trail to the upper entrance. The sugar should absorb excess moisture and give the bees emergency feed if its a long winter. This is my first year, so this could be the worst idea ever, but it sounds like a good plan to me!


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## bannonb (Aug 24, 2012)

tabby said:


> How close is your water barrel? I have water gardens and a plant tray a few hundred feet from the bees and they are there constantly, but they ignore the same water dish when it is right in front of their hives. I'm a bit north of Denver.
> 
> 
> Wow, that's something.
> ...


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Hypothermia is never good. Dump cold water on yourself this winter and test the theory, and you cannot run inside because the bees are stuck out in the cold so should you.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i have notches in my inner covers to allow some moisure to escape. 

i also put one half inch of pink insulation board between my inner and outer covers. i believe this keeps the ceiling from getting as cold as the sides, letting any condensation form on the sides, where it can't drip on the bees, and at the same time keeping the water available to the bees if they need it.


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## juzzerbee (Apr 17, 2012)

Squarepeg-It's my 1st year and I have been encouraged locally to do just what you do. I have a 2 inch wide notch in my inner cover that will hopefully allow air flow, help control condensation, and serve as a top entrance for the winter months. I have heard that once the styrofoam insulation is in place(above inner, below telescoping) I should duct tape shut the inner cover hole so the bees don't chew the insulation. Since the insulation will be covering the hole anyway, it makes sense to me to tape the hole shut. How many years have you "wintered" this way? Does it work well? Do you have any problems or suggestions of what else needs to be done in addition to keep the bees safe, dry, and healthy throughout the winter. I am in Wisconsin, so the winters are probably a bit different. Thanks, juzzerbee


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

jb, i have only two winters under my belt, the first with four hives and the second with ten. i had no losses either winter.

i did not insulate the first winter, and even though there were no losses, i found a lot of mold on the underside of the inner cover and on the top of the frames beneath it. not good.

after the the second winter, and with the insulation, no mold.

sounds like a good idea to use your notch for a top entrance, in case of deep snow. i have to keep mine screened to help with the hive beetles and wax moths.


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## juzzerbee (Apr 17, 2012)

Thanks. I was thinking about this idea too last night. Would it be good to place some sort of shim on top of the insulating styrofoam and the underside of the telescoping cover? This would create a pocket of air(maybe just a half inch), the would possible control moisture and make a area of dead space that could help with heating? Or......is this idea unneccessary if I am already using the styrofoam layer and a notched inner cover? 
Also- does a 1 inch thick piece of foam elevate your outer cover too much that the notch in the inner cover may be too exposed to the elements? Thanks again, juzzerbee


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Be sure to cover/position the duct tape so the bees don't accidently get stuck to the adhesive. A piece of milk jug or the lid off of a magarine tub would work as well in covering the escape/vent holes...

Ed


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

squarepeg, did you cut out an area for the escape holes or did you cover over them? I'm not worried about insulation for cold temperatures but more so for possible condensation issues.

Ed


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

jb, the one half inch is an extra r3 of insulation, and raises the outer cover up about as high as i would want to with the inner covers i have. i guess the dead air space above the inner cover might add a little insulation, but i don't think i need it here.

as far as tape, i was suggested to me after i put the styrofoam in, and i never got around to it. none of the 10 hives chewed the foam, it is pink dow board.

ed, no cut for the escape holes, and the foam was fit tight inside the inner cover rim. it does not interfere with the notches in the front and back that provide some air escape from the super below. i have these notches screened, but some of the hives propilize the screen to varying degrees.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

squarepeg, you got a picture of your inner cover with the notches? I'd like to see the arrangement. Seems the ones that I have either have no notch or it's on the top in the rim. Thanks, Ed


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sorry ed, i don't have any pictures or a good camera to take some, but...

what i do is saw out a notch in the front and back of the rim of the inner cover. i make these notches the same width as the escape hole in the center of the innercover, and in line with it. i then take wood glue and run a bead around the joint (top and bottom) of the rim and the plywood, and set in on an empty box to make sure it drys square. after the glue drys, i then take window screen, and run it from the top, over the front (or back) and around to the bottom, and secure it with staples.

when i put the outer cover on, i space it evenly front and back so that the air can escape front and back. but like i mentioned, some of the hives have propilized one or both of the screens, but i think i have noticed where they have opened one back up again. maybe they are adjustable for the bees?


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Ok, in my mind I'm seeing a notch cut into the edge of the inner cover roughly 1-1/4" deep. Window screen is tacked down over it on the top side, wrapped over the edge, and then stapled down again on the bottom side. I take it the slight thickness of the screen doesn't affect sealing of the inner cover to the super (bees probably seal it up good). 

I'm of the "prop the top cover up with a stick" group.  I used little pieces of 1/4" molding (same stuff I used for the runners on my oil trays) to prop my top cover up on one end this summer. I'm probably going to reduce that down with popsicle sticks for the winter. Just enough to give it a slight movement of air. With the new colony from the cutout I've got four hives now which is 3-1/2 more than I had last winter so I'll be watching for condensation issues, if I run into to them I'll snag some 1/2" insulation. Thanks for the feedback!

Ed


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

cutting the notch is really more just removing that small section of the rim, you don't have to cut into the plywood. removing those two sections of the rim makes the unit come apart easily because the plywood is loose in the slot. that's why you have to glue it.

right, the screen is so thin it's not an issue.

i started with popsicle sticks on all of mine, but i caught the hive beetles squeezing through even that small crack. i'm closed up tight now except for the bottom entrance, and the screened notches.

they work just like the attic vents underneath your soffit.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Are your inner covers flush on one side or does both sides have a "rim"?

I wanted to stop the beetles and moth but still wanted to prop the top some for ventilation...full sun all day down here in the flat(ter) lands....so I stapled window screen over the escape/feed holes in the inner cover. I feed through the screen, too.

Ed


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

both sides have a rim. my kelley one's have a deeper and a shallower side, the mann lake one's are the same depth on both sides.

not sure the screens are really doing that much if you have the prop sticks in.

i'm a little north of you, but we still get 100+ with the heat index here. i was able to stop bearding by taking the reducers out, and having the bottom board tall side up, wide open. i then put a 'screen' about half way across the entrance so that i had air flow all the way across, but only half was open for the bees, beetles, and moths, (the brave ones anyway).


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Ok, this explains my confusion. I use mostly Rossmans equipment and the inner covers are completely flat on the bottom (no rim) while the upper side has a rim.

There's no way beetles or moth can enter the hive through the top due to the sticks propping the top cover up. The screen completely blocks entry through the escape/feed holes in the inner cover. ???

Screen works very well as an entrance reducer. I can't remember, are you using solid bottom boards?

Ed


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ok, i gotcha. that sounds like a real good set up. yeah, solid bottoms.

i got the 'screens' for the entrance from kelley's. they are thick metal strips with holes in them. i cut them to length. they also work really good for closing up a hive if you have to move one. i just use push pins to secure them.


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## BayHighlandBees (Feb 13, 2012)

the bees like the dirty water. I find mine drinking the water going down the curb of the road towards the sewer. I have other cleaner and closer sources, but they don't seem interested in that.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Condensation is only a problem when cold water drips on the bees. Water droplets will be consumed by the bees as needed water for diluting honey etc. when it's where they can reach it and stay dry.

My brother and I both have quit using Kelley plastic covers, and I'll be building a bunch for a friend of mine as well -- they are slightly convex, but still drip water all over the place since they do not absorb any and are fairly transparent to heat. Damp air comes up through the escape hole and condenses on the cold cover, then rolls down and drips off the first bit of texture on the cover. My brother always had wet inner covers, usually with water standing on them, and it leaked through the joints between the slats and onto his bees. Lost a big healthy hive last winter (might have had mite problems too, although we didn't see any symptoms).

We've switched to wooden outer covers made with either 1/2" or 3/8" plywood and newspaper padding under a hand bent aluminum cover. This provides adequate insulation and the moisture rarely forms on the wood and drips, the inner covers stay dry, and the bees appear to be happier.

Those plastic covers also degrade badly, at least the ones we have that are about 8 years old or so. The plastic cracks and water leaks THROUGH onto the bees, and eventually they shatter if dropped. Newer ones might be better, but I think wood is well proven and since it's unlikely to drip water is much better.

We have variable winters here -- last year it barely froze, but we had lots of damp, rainy days just above freezing when condensation would be the worst -- high humidity, fairly warm clusters, and no breeze to speak of. However, we have to be prepared for the occasional winter where we get significant snow, bitter cold, and howiing winds. Might have to build a wind break, my neighbor got rid of the big pile of oak firewood without telling me so my hives are somewhat more exposed that before. Easy enough, I'll get with the new neighbors and see what we can do with the fence, or maybe just put a woodpile of my own on my side on the north of the hive (neighbors, sadly, are moving).

Peter


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