# Does anyone make a 12 7/8" frame?



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Is there a source for frame ends of this depth? I'm sure I'm not the first one to think of this but a frame of this size would fit perfectly in 2 medium boxes. I know there are those have used "deeper than deep" frames and have made deeper hive bodies to accommodate them. I don't like using mediums for brood chambers. It takes longer to check the hives, and I just don't like it, so.....

Medium boxes are cheap for me to build. I don't have a saw mill and finding good wood wide enough to build a deep from has proven to be fruitless. I'm not using spruce shelving to make boxes, they won't last long enough, so a medium is the deepest box I can build using good pine lumber. I can buy commercially cut and kiln dried lumber and build mediums for less than $3.50 each. That's good lumber, not full of knots.

I think having all boxes the same size would be great, even if I had 2 frame sizes.

So, any custom frame builders out there? I just don't have the time to cut them.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

brad - where ya getting wood that cheap - May have to visit ya


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

A local family owned lumber store. Not only is it low priced, I can pick through 15 boards and get 10 with no knots at all. That's rare with Southern Yellow Pine. It makes great boxes. I haven't bought any lumber for hives this year, it may be higher now than it was last year.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Brad, it is more than just end bars. All commercially produced frames I have looked at have problems with the top bars. Then you need foundation 11 7/8 inches wide. Then you need an extractor that can handle an oversize frame. I suggest that there will be far fewer problems if you use Dadant 11 5/8 inch depth boxes. Rip your lumber down to give 11 5/8 inches depth and you will be in business.

Here is how I dealt with it.

I happen to have a 50+ year old 4 frame motorized Kelley extractor that will handle Dadant depth 11 1/4 frames.

Dadant still sells 10 5/8 inch foundation so just call them up and order as much as you want. I'm waiting until October to order more because they are going to make some 5.1 foundation at that time. I want 5.1 because it will increase the density of brood significantly.

I am building my own frames as you saw Sunday. The end bars are 7/16 inch thick by 1 1/4 inches wide by 11 1/4 inches tall and made of tight grain spruce. They are about 50% stronger than typical commercial end bars. Managing bees on 1.25 inch frames takes different methods than standard frames. I suggest you get 1 3/8 end bars 3/8 inch thick with standard 1 inch wide top bars since that is what you are used to managing.

So would I make you some end bars? I'd have to think VERY hard about it. There are 10 separate cuts to make a good quality end bar. That translates into a lot of time doing detailed work. I am making 450 frames to maintain 30 colonies of my own.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Dar, I know it takes a whole lot of time to make good ones, that's why I'm not going to make them.  I need to find a cabinet shop with a CNC cutter. That would significantly speed up the process and cut the cost.

I'm interested to see how your big hives do.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Brad - find out if you would what bundle price is if you will


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

I'm in for 100 if you do a custom run


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Then you need an extractor that can handle an oversize frame.

This was the main problem with the double deep frames I made. Here we don't need winter stores. We need a box depth that will push the crop up into the honey supers, not leave it in the brood chamber. The 11 1/4" frame is the biggest you will fit into a few rare factory extractors. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ght=gargantuan

http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ght=gargantuan

http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ght=gargantuan

http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ght=gargantuan​


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

There are a few more depths of standard boxes than just the deep and medium. There's the shallow, and at least one more size, maybe two. See if there is a combination that will fit the standard super deep Dadant frames?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The sizes you will see documented are:

11 5/8 Dadant depth, the Jumbo hive was otherwise Langstroth dimensions but 11 5/8 deep.

9 5/8 standard Langstroth depth

7 5/8 Illinois depth, this one is sometimes called a Western and sometimes other names

6 5/8 standard medium brood box and super

5 11/16 shallow super, most often used in the Southeast U.S. where it is better adapted for the short but fast flows we experience.

Looking around the world, there are literally thousands of hive designs of every imaginable shape and size. There are three that are worth looking at in more depth. The Kenya Top Bar hive is arguably the best overall TBH design. The Warre hive is excellent for taking best advantage of the honeybee's natural tendencies in a frame-less but stackable hive. The Rose hive is a modern design with a lot of advantages given that it was designed for a specific style of management.

What you won't see documented is the relative prices of the various hives and comparisons of their advantages and flaws.

Here are current prices for various completely set up hives, not including supers which are required for a flow.

$116.92 - 4 Medium 8 frame
$103.80 - 3 Medium 10 frame
$96.10 - 2 Deep 10 frame
$87.98 - 2 Deep 8 frame
$87.15 - 1 Deep 10 frame and 1 Medium 10 frame
$79.97 - 1 Deep 8 frame and 1 Medium 8 frame (can argue this is not enough brood space)
$75.62 - 1 Dadant Square Deep with 14 frames (enough brood space to run as 2 queen with a divider)


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Brad Bee; How many colonies do you plan to have using that size frame?


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## Barhopper (Mar 5, 2015)

I've made side bars the size of a deep and a medium. I put the foundation in vertically instead of horizontally. I have not put it to work yet but my reasoning is that the bees would have a bigger continuous brood area. No plans to extract these frames. I made a pattern then cut with router table. Sliced them up on a table saw. Meeps/Dediums


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

FYI, I am getting a quote to have a custom run of these 12 7/8" frames made. PM me and let me know if anyone wants to get in on it and how many frames you might want


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The extra shallow is 4 11/16" (or 4 3/4") and used to be available from Walter T. Kelley. I don't see them in the current catalog, but it may be I don't know where to look either...


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## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

$2.25, for a normal frame, assembled with eyelets and wire 1000 piece run; plus price of shipping of your choice. I would need a single unit or need a frame or a detailed drawing with the dimentions you need so there is no misunderstandings. Details should include how many eyelets, nails or staples, top and bottom bar details. If all its just normal details from a Kelly, Brushy Mountain or Mannlake frame, price is $2.25 without delivery.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

tanksbees said:


> FYI, I am getting a quote to have a custom run of these 12 7/8" frames made. PM me and let me know if anyone wants to get in on it and how many frames you might want


I received the quote for the frames:

$0.65 per frame
3000 frames minimum order quantity

+ shipping & handling from Shenzen, China


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

That works out to about $2100 including shipping for a minimum order. Are you going to get standard Langstroth dimensions for top and bottom bars?


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Are you going to order them or are you trying to get enough people involved to place an order? I was planning on making end bars and using standard top and bottom bars. If you're going to order them I would likely be interested in some. I don't know how many though. I was planning on doing a few hives as a test, not going overboard until I see how they work out.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Brad Bee said:


> Are you going to order them or are you trying to get enough people involved to place an order? I was planning on making end bars and using standard top and bottom bars. If you're going to order them I would likely be interested in some. I don't know how many though. I was planning on doing a few hives as a test, not going overboard until I see how they work out.


I don't know yet. The price is fantastic but the minimum order quantity is far higher than the 100 I want to order!


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Fusion_power said:


> That works out to about $2100 including shipping for a minimum order. Are you going to get standard Langstroth dimensions for top and bottom bars?


I think I put 3/8" on the spec sheet. I was mostly fishing for a price, I will have to double check everything if this actually happens - it won't happen unless someone wants to commit to the 2900 frames I don't want


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

tanksbees said:


> I don't know yet. The price is fantastic but the minimum order quantity is far higher than the 100 I want to order!


Yeah, no joke. I'd take 50 for sure and 100 if I had to. 2800 to go! LOL


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

What came of this? I had the same idea and fleshed it out over the past couple of weeks. I was considering making my own side bars, as was Brad Bee from post #18. I'd have had no need for extraction, considering these strictly as brood frames.

In fact, if you consider the Wolfgang Peschetz work that Bernhard Heuvel was reporting in the commercial forum "two queen hive" thread recently, plus Bernhard's additional recommendation (given his climate, his bees, his management) of a certain number of cells per queen, a jumbo-ish double-medium in 5.1mm cell foundation might even be too large for Peschetz's three queen "Trio" operation. A slightly wider 12-frame format would be interesting: four groups of three frames housing a two-box stack with "mating nuc" geometry and four colonies.

I guess I'm an American. I just said, in effect, "more is better." Well, it was pretty close to that. What I really said is that it would be "interesting," rather than "better."


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

DerTiefster said:


> What came of this?


Still waiting for someone who wants the other 2900 frames.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

On all of Beesource there is no one offering to make us a few frames?
Mr. Fusion Power? Dave W? 
Mark! Ordering from China? A Right Winger like you should be ashamed of yourself! Its guys like you who have to help Trump make America Great Again.


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## dave w in virginia (Dec 28, 2016)

I'm still trying to pick up on the basics. A custom batch of stuff is quite a ways down the road for me. Sorry, still learning to walk before running.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

odfrank said:


> Mark! Ordering from China? A Right Winger like you should be ashamed of yourself! Its guys like you who have to help Trump make America Great Again.


Ollie, to clear up my political affiliations, I am a cheapskate year round, an atheist 7 days of the week, a Ron Paul fan from the 1st to 31st, a Trump fan Tuesday to Friday, and a Hillary and Obama fan on the 31st of February.

Being an atheist we have no celebrations, so I light a candle and clean my 1911 every February 6th to celebrate the birth of Ronald Reagan.


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

way back up at post #15, MichaBee offered to make 1000 frames @ $2.25. Granted the Chinese offer was for three times as many at the same total cost, but perhaps if you asked nicely, someone would make your 100 frames at a cost you find tolerable for a test run. Or do what I was thinking and make (or order) some side bars only to fit existing top/bottoms you may have in hand.

To turn to frame design issues, how did you think to handle for the joint between two medium foundation pieces? Would you want the foundation loose and rattling around, or tightly fixtured? This still seems interesting to me. Custom side bars would allow for any frame spacing one might wish for a brood box only application. (There being by report so few extractors that can spin honey out of such a deep frame.) Myself, I might find a way if I _needed_ it, but that way probably wouldn't work for commercial scale operation and would probably involve one of the high-capacity, modern HE washing machines plus a plastic bag. I might also be joking, but ....


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## garfish (Mar 17, 2015)

Check out horizontalhives.com. He sells ( I think) and has plans for a double deep frame. Perhaps the end bars can be cut down. These are used for swarm trapping and a Luzartin hive. It involves mortise and tenon without need for nails, and wires vertically. Interesting site


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## Theodosios (Jan 4, 2017)

Fusion_power said:


> I am building my own frames as you saw Sunday. The end bars are 7/16 inch thick by 1 1/4 inches wide by 11 1/4 inches tall and made of tight grain spruce. They are about 50% stronger than typical commercial end bars. Managing bees on 1.25 inch frames takes different methods than standard frames.


Fusion Power, If I understand correctly, your frames preserve a distance from one another of 1,25 inch (1 1/4) from axis to axis, which is around 32 mm in metric. Since I am interested in building my own frames (dadant size) in a way that this distance (32mm) between frames is preserved, could you please attach a draft of your frames with all the spaces, distanses, sizes you use. What are these different methods, you ve mentioned in your post, required for managing bees on such frames? By the way, I find your posts very helping.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

I like this idea, except with a modification. I'm thinking of trying with a Dadant frame and putting an internal slotted bottom board at the bottom. I could make a SBB that fits inside the lower medium to take up the extra bee space below the Dadant frame. It could be a way to experiment with the larger Dadant brood frames without having special equipment that is incompatible with my other stuff. If I was unhappy with the results, I'm out only the frames.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?320011-jumbo-or-extra-large-hive-bodies-source/page8

See post 160


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

This is very interesting to me. Here is my first prototype for a 12 7/8" frame fabricated from two pieces of Acorn 3x waxed plastic foundation. The photo isn't great, but I'm not an expert at this. The top/bottom of the frame are Mann-Lake medium grooved top/bottom bars, while the side bars are very coarsely fabricated by me. Just a pair of ~12 7/8" to 13" bars with top/bottom notched out to fit the Mann-Lake bits. I added a spacer in the side groove (supplied for foundation alignment) to push the foundation to top and bottom.

I consider that this is a hard-to-lose experiment. If everything crashes and burns and I need to revert to standard hardware, all I need do is separate the two medium boxes (easy) as far as the hive box goes. The foundations can readily be separated from the side bars and those bars can be cut out/off, as can the free comb I fully expect the bees to use to fill in the center of the frame. Lauri's beautiful photos in another thread show what bees do to things like this set before them. One piece of drawn-out foundation will be attached to the top bar. Just assemble the standard sides/bottom to it. One will be attached to the bottom bar. Just assemble the standard sides/top to it. All drawn cells should be preserved, losing only the center bit which could probably be profitably rubber-banded to another foundationless frame.

Hope this is interesting to someone. Real cheap. Real easy. I've had some good ideas for fabricating the side bars and refining some design features. Looking forward to Doing The Deed Real Soon Now.

Michael


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Looks good and I'm building some to use this year. Only thing I'm going to do different is to leave the gap at the bottom of the frame instead of between the two pieces of foundation. 

I sure do like the Acorn foundation. I'm having great success using their mid "weight" wax coating.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Using 8 1/2 inch sheets from Acorn, cut one sheet down to make two pieces 3 5/8 inches wide. Put one full size 8 1/2 sheet plus one 3 5/8 in a frame. It will make a full frame of foundation. Plastic foundation can be cut on a table saw using a sharp 6 1/2 inch blade.


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

FP: I want to retain the back-out provision because I'm chicken and I'm also a cheapie. I don't presently want to do irreversible things to my hardware. But there are other issues which may be of interest... See following. But your suggestion would be of considerable interest after I become more confident. Using 1.5 pieces of $1.65 foundation is cheaper than using 2 pieces of $1.50 foundation. Other pricing may apply. See "cheapie" above. I'd still have to provide guide slots on the side bars to keep the two pieces aligned. I may be able to use only a single piece of medium foundation, upper or lower or mid-plane, after I learn what the bees do with the foundationless region.

BB: There are three things which lead me to favor placing the gap at center. For the present I have only theoretical reasons -- no practical experience to date on this.
1) Back-out to medium frames is most painless and straightforward when each (drawn) foundation is attached to a bar which would be re-used in the medium frame.

2) A gap at center of frame provides a potential path for bees to go _through_ the comb from one side to the other or to the next frame without having to go around. I think this _could_ be an issue in cold weather for access to stores, better than either placing the gap at top or bottom. F_P's suggestion above would place solid plastic full-frame. But it may not matter.

3) (Of great interest to me with my lack of drawn comb) In the threads on "opening the sides of the brood nest" (Matt Davey inspired) the thought keeps showing up that frames with foundation only are not viewed well by the bees as expansion room, and that they are more ready to begin wax-drawing activities when faced with a gap in comb next to the brood nest. Placing foundation next to brood is reported fairly uniformly to be less successful in inducing wax drawing than placing open, foundationless frames adjacent to the brood nest. I thought that a gap at the center of a frame adjacent to the brood nest would result more confidently in having the bees fill the gap with new comb, and then have that comb-building activity continue onto the plastic. Lauri's very lovely pics, some of which are linked in her post a few items up, show what I'd hope would be the bees' response to a mid-gap frame. I'm speaking mostly of pre-season activities, trying to induce earlier-than-normal wax production. I think sometimes it's spoken of as the "before white wax" time.

All suggestions appreciated and kept in the "think about it" queue.

Michael

The above is a statement of explanation, not an attempt at persuasion. If I tell you what I was thinking, I give you an opportunity to tell me where I'm wrong.


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