# Making up nucs



## Randy Andy (Jul 16, 2014)

I have about twenty hives that are really booming 10+ frames of brood and full double deeps of bees. I would like to split nucs from these hives before they go out for pollination around April 12th I plan on taking about 3 frames of brood in all stages, a frame of honey and pollen, and adding a frame of drawn comb. My trouble right now is I can get the queens next week, but the weather isn't looking decent until April 10th with a hug of 57.is there a minimum temperature to make these splits? Should I shake an extra frame or two of bees to keep the nuc warmer? Is that to cold to make these nucs up a day or two before I move the hives? I'm concerned that if I don't take some brood from these hives they're definitely going to swarm in the blueberries. Any input should be a great help! Thanks


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You should be able to do what you want to do soon. On the day you plan to split I'd wait until after 10 AM so it is somewhat warm and getting warmer. Yes, an extra shake of bees into your nuc would be a good idea.

Could you work the hives after they are in the blueberries? I do. My grower doesn't mind.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Make the split and brush off the bees. Place the combs in deep and then over an excluder over night. Next day remove, move to new location and give queen. The more empty combs you include over the excluder, the more bees you will harvest for the nuc. No shaking bees or looking for queen.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Your window is this Monday, April 4.
Do MPalmers suggestion in mid morning as per sqkcrk and pull them later in the afternoon, move and queen.


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## Randy Andy (Jul 16, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> Make the split and brush off the bees. Place the combs in deep and then over an excluder over night. Next day remove, move to new location and give queen. The more empty combs you include over the excluder, the more bees you will harvest for the nuc. No shaking bees or looking for queen.



I think this will save me a lot of time looking for queens. Do you think I should wait until after I move them to the blueberries to make the splits? I feel like this is probably the best thing for the bees. The weather between now and then is a crap shoot at best and I need two days that are at least 55. Thanks Michael


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

IF the grower allows you to , then yes. Splitting hives in nice weather is so much more enjoyable and easier on the hives


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Ian said:


> IF the grower allows you to , then yes.


Can you expand on that, Ian?
What do you mean?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Can you expand on that, Ian?
> What do you mean?


I said IF because Beekeepers tell me (blueberry)growers either allow or don't allow hives being worked during pollination. That part you'd have better insight than I. 
One beekeeper told me (blueberry pollination) he has one grower which states "no major hive work", and another grower beside him that could careless. ???? What ever the OP is allowed to do will influence his "dilemma"

Your take?


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## crazylocha (Mar 26, 2013)

A friend had a similar situation. Farmer "said no problem, do what you need to do while bees were there". Friend did his nuc split, 3 brood and a food per double deep. Next week got a call from farmer, two more weeks and should be done, if wants to pick up check, come by in morning. Friend did, and check wasn't ready. Farmer pointed out that needed to do check on bees and he could pull bugs on weekend. Because the hives were under the 8 frames of brood per hive now, friends contract stated lower price. A third less on price. 

Many things to consider on the OP's questions. Communication with the farmer and a detailed contract are the best things he can arm himself with.

Considering the weather conditions, for the bees health, I would say wait until moving into the blueberry. Best for nucs and pollination hives both.

Doesn't mean that is the best BUSINESS decision. That is contracted # of brood/box and farmer based.

How would you feel if you were the farmer?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Randy Andy said:


> I think this will save me a lot of time looking for queens. Do you think I should wait until after I move them to the blueberries to make the splits? I feel like this is probably the best thing for the bees. The weather between now and then is a crap shoot at best and I need two days that are at least 55. Thanks Michael


If you have queen cells available when you want to nuc or split a hive you do not have to find your queens. Equalize brood and bees and whatever else you wish to have in each box and carry half away to another location. Go back to them the next day and put a queen cell in each half. The half with the queen in it will tear down the cell. The cost of a "wasted" cell is a lot less than the time it takes to find the queen.

If you are going to use mated queens, then, figure out what you want in each half of the hive and brush or shake the bees off of the combs you want in the box you want to take away back into the box you are going to leave. Place an excluder on that box and put the box you are going take away on the excluder over night so bees can come up through the excluder to cover the brood. Next morning take the boxes above the excluder off to another yard. The next morning add your queen to those splits.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Randy Andy said:


> I think this will save me a lot of time looking for queens. Do you think I should wait until after I move them to the blueberries to make the splits? I feel like this is probably the best thing for the bees. The weather between now and then is a crap shoot at best and I need two days that are at least 55. Thanks Michael


When I pollinated apples...600 colonies...I always made my splits in the orchard.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> When I pollinated apples...600 colonies...I always made my splits in the orchard.


One of the first things that I remember my mentor in commercial beekeeping say was, "You have to train your growers."

My growers do not dictate what happens with my bees any more than I do for their crops.
Every single grower that I have is totally accustomed to seeing me "work on" bees in the field.
All I have ever gotten is compliments from them for doing so.

Driving away with a pickup load of nucs in the middle of the day pulled from screaming hives does the growers pollination much more good.
Opening up new laying space, and avoiding swarming both benefit the colonies impulse to pollen forage.
Remember that brood pheromone is the number 1 driver of pollen collection.

Early on, I had a pear grower drive up when I was pulling a few frames from each hive and asked me what I was doing.
I asked, " You prune your trees; right? You do so that you will set a better crop; right?"
" Today, I am pruning the bees so that YOU will set a better crop."
He's never said a word since.

I would never accept a pollination contract that did not allow totally unrestricted access to our hives.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I like that approach


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

In NY we are lucky to get more than one really good day of bright sunshine and warmth when bees can fly well. Working bees while in apple orchards in the Champlain Valley take a day away from those hives doing their jobs. That's how at least some of the growers see it. Especially if they are also beekeepers.

My hives are 100 miles away from home when in the apples. So I get them ready before taking them and then work them after they come home.

Different strokes for different folks.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Different strokes for different folks.


It's not "Different strokes for different folks."

It is, " All of beekeeping is local."

All of our bees pollinate 4 crops and some 5. If we could not service hives during some point in EACH crop, they would never get maintained.

Growers have exactly zero knowledge or qualification to dictate how YOUR hives are going to be maintained.
It is your job to set the ground rules.
Yes, we, like Mark have a break between pollination sets in SOME years in which we can work the hives prior to delivery. That is great!
I am only objecting to the idea of beekeepers allowing crop growers to dictate how and when hives will be maintained.
I would never agree to such a preposterous arrangement.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I imagine that the majority of those of us who pollinate almonds do not manage their hives while in the almond groves. Would you agree, Harry? If for no other reason than logistics? The almond pollinators I know, about 6 individuals, prep their hives, send them to CA, and don't see them again until the hives get back East.

When I went the one time to ME to help pull bees out of the blueberries almost all of the hives I saw were banded to the pallets. I did see Mendes' hives being worked prior to removal. The window of pollination of different crops can be wide open or quite narrow.

Perhaps where you keep bees determines how you manage them. "All of beekeeping is local." But no one keeps bees exactly the same way no matter where they are located. "Different strokes ..."  Whatever.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

On the splitting - I do blueberry's. Take a pallet - make 1 split each to new pallet. Then move original hives/pallet down the yard a ways. Replace the original pallet/spot with the splits. Don't charge extra for the extra bees in the yard. Both splitting done and farmer thinks he's getting a hell-of-a deal.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What extra bees? One? A queen at that. Who does no pollinating herself. As long as the grower is happy with the results they get, fine, I'm all for doing what needs doing when you can. If that means while in pollination, fine. I have even stated that I do the same, work my bees while in blueberries. I'm just saying that things are different with different growers is all. Most may not mind what you do with your bees while in pollination. Just that I know some who do mind.

If you split a pallet of double deep hives in to two pallets of singles, do you think that the same amount of visits to flowers occurs over the duration of the pollination? Or more? Or less? Seems like the way you describe what you do, sakhoney, that all of the foragers would be returning to the original location. So, at least for a period of time, the new colonies wouldn't be doing any foraging/pollination. What have you observed?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Neither of my apple growers allow me to work bees in their orchards.
They want them placed and ready to work.
That's 100% of my pollination work 
So I put a medium on top the day they are dropped.
All other work is done before I show up to the orchard or upon pulling out.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Any of the old bees/foragers that remain with the old queens continue to pollinate just fine. The bees that go back to the nucs also continue to pollinate. It works for me just fine. I have been running bees for about 40 years and learned bees from a guy that ran 15000 hives. Bees that get moved "down the way" return to the hive they come from due to the old queen being moved. Guess with the extra bees I meant the extra splits that I leave in the yard. (some call these walk away splits) May not do on almonds but works fine on blue berries


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Hey, I was out in the cherry groves today working on my bees and got to wondering:

For those of you that have growers that "don't allow" you to work on your own bees while in pollination.

1) Have they told you yet what approach you will take for varroa control this fall?
2) Have they said anything about fumagilln use; will they allow that this fall?

Always like to hear other's opinions.....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh, Harry. Get over it, why dontcha?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

We rent a lot of land. Some land owners ask to abide by conditions, some do not. Bottom line, If we don't comply to their terms we don't rent the land. Negotiation goes a long way so to be smart, hinge on addressing the issues rather than stating demands. Making demands is an easy way to get tossed off the property
I think parallels can be drawn with pollination


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Ian said:


> We rent a lot of land. Some land owners ask to abide by conditions, some do not. Bottom line, If we don't comply to their terms we don't rent the land. Negotiation goes a long way so to be smart, hinge on addressing the issues rather than stating demands. Making demands is an easy way to get tossed off the property
> I think parallels can be drawn with pollination


Very well put.
Communication is the key.
Giving the grower the understanding of why the maintaining of hives works in their best interest is so important.
There was a study several years ago that purported that hives moved into crops suffer 5% on average queen loss.
My experience is that the number varies. Sometimes zero.
Today, I found 2.
How well do queenless hives pollinate?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Im on your side Harry. But there is some truth to the bees shutting down for a few hours during and after being worked. 

Early spring my bees have nothing but open protein feeders, the work around the feeders is tremendous to see. 
When we work through a yard ( even light work) the bees are heavy in the feeders as we start, almost gone from the feeders as we leave. Takes an hour to get back up to full activity again. 

I refer to you on pollination requirements...but in a growers head a worked bee hive is not pollinating for hours after. That's actual $$$$ in their eyes. Hard to chsnge impressions and that's where a good beekeeper / grower relationship shines

Which ever way you work your hives Harry, those gals are shutting down of a bit.


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## Randy Andy (Jul 16, 2014)

Just put the queens in the nucs today. I will never make splits any other way again! No looking for queens, I put a few extra frames of comb and had plenty of bees! Thanks for the great advice Mike, it saved me a lot of time and effort definitely worth the extra trip to the bee yard!


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Harry - why all the extra pallets under the bees?


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## Randy Andy (Jul 16, 2014)

I can't answer for Harry, but I put three pallets under all of my boxes because I'm 6'4" and it is so much easier to work bees when they are higher. It also keeps smaller rodents further away, in theory.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

sakhoney said:


> Harry - why all the extra pallets under the bees?


Skunks


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