# Dry pollen substitute feeding during dearth and in the fall



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

a few years ago i tried putting out some of the dry mann lake ultra bee and the bees were all over it.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

I have tried equal amounts of soy flour and whole wheat flour, it worked well until the red maples came in and they wouldn't touch it. I only feed the pollen sub in the winter to let the bees get a head start on raising brood. I have just started feeding weak sugar water due to the dearth and will feed it until September first. Mine get grass pollen and several other pollens during the nectar dearth, I just have to supply them with nectar (sugar water) and they do fine. I suspect they would turn their noses up to the pollen sub now.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

A suggestion I have not seen mentioned yet, is you can fill empty drawn combs with the dry powder and then give a light mist of sugar water spray.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

My Italians bees are a bit picky. They will not eat the patty that is not tasty. So I have
been using megabee for the last 3 years. They keep the queen laying during a dearth and
for the Fall and winter build up too. A bit expensive than the beepro but well worth the money.
If I use the beepro sub then I have to add extra protein for them.


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## phopkinsiii (May 4, 2014)

I put out some ultra-bee yesterday because we're supposed to be in a dearth. They haven't touched it. Today, I noticed a lot of pollen coming in so they're finding something they like better. Probably doesn't answer your question except that the girls seem to prefer the real deal.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I'm sure they prefer the real thing when it's there, but mine aren't bringing in anything. These nucs need to build up some or they won't have enough bees to make it until our fall "flow." Our fall flow isn't a given either. Right now things look good, but it's dependent upon rain for the nectar part at least. They should be able to get some pollen by mid to late August.

I think I'll put out some dry pollen sub tomorrow and see if they take to it. I'm going to put it in a chicken feeder and cover it so it won't get wet when it rains.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Put a drop of lemongrass oil at the edge of it and they will find it right away I set some dry out early this spring it sat for 3 days and wasn't a single bee on it, one drip of LGO and within 2 hrs there was a cloud of bees on it


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Will give that a try. I've got some LGO, somewhere....

Might have to give it a spritz of Swarm commander.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Have you try planting for your bees to get through the dearth before?
Some invasive Borage, bushy morning glory, pumpkins, sunflowers, etc.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

We have had a good wet summer this year, and I have had a record harvest. My bees are still bringing in lots of yellow pollen and also nectar as the white clover is still blooming here. In the early spring I fed my bees dry pollen substitute to encourage brood rearing, I experimented with
Beepro Beezilla and chicpea flour. bees carried away all the chickpea flour and were not interested in the other. Because the others had trace minerals and vitamins I eventually mixed the chickpea flour with 20% by volume of the commercial stuff and the bees then still carried it away. I fed them every day with a pound of the mixture just placed on a tray with thin strips of wood laying across the powder. They carried on taking this until natural pollen became plentiful and they suddenly stopped. I will try this again in the fall and see what happens.
Johno


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

beepro said:


> Have you try planting for your bees to get through the dearth before?
> Some invasive Borage, bushy morning glory, pumpkins, sunflowers, etc.


I know every little bit helps, but planting for bees unless it's a large area (read that in multiples of 50 acres) only accomplishes one thing. It makes the beekeeper have a warm and fuzzy feeling. I'd have to plant our whole farm to make an impact.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

johno, you said they carried the chickpea flour away. Does that mean they used it, or carried it out of the hive?

I figure it means they used it since you said they weren't interested in the other, but I'm a little confused. 

The only soy flour I can find online has a negative review that says the flour has a chemical odor, likely remaining from the oil extraction process. I cant find any extruder produced flour. Also have found any that's not defatted. Would Brewers yeast be a better alternative?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

brad, i have some left over bags of latshaw's mix and if you find yourself in the neighborhood you are welcome to get one and try it out.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

thanks sp!


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## phopkinsiii (May 4, 2014)

Brad Bee said:


> I know every little bit helps, but planting for bees unless it's a large area (read that in multiples of 50 acres) only accomplishes one thing. It makes the beekeeper have a warm and fuzzy feeling. I'd have to plant our whole farm to make an impact.


I don't mean to be argumentative, but I've heard this kind of thing before and the math just doesn't seem to add up to me. For example, a 1 acre field of buckwheat would have millions of flowers blooming for several weeks. If the bees visit the field several times per day per forager, that's a lot of visits. Granted, we're talking about fairly minute amounts of nectar and pollen per flower, but it still sounds substantial to me.
My 2 hives produced over 100# of honey last spring and summer without supplemental feeding. I live in an urban area where the only real source of nectar is the palm trees that bloom from May through July.
I'll admit that a 1/4 acre back yard full of wildflowers is probably not going to produce any surplus honey, but it seems that it could keep them from starving to death through a 2 month dearth.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

How many hives do you think you could keep from starving to death with 1/4 acre back yard of wildflowers?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I agree, an acre of some types of plantings can really help, for a time...
The problem is how long does the bloom cycle last? You can get great flows off of a bloom, but the cycle ends and then what happens for the rest of the year?

I've often contemplated this for me here. I could plant mustard, it would bloom February through into April. Dutch white clover would then start from about the end of may and go on through August or maybe a little later. Sunflowers could then fill in for October. The plantings would have to be done at the correct times, and irrigation would be needed for after the spring rains here in my area... But now, for me, that won't work as I've gotten Boer goats here now to keep the field grasses down, so I don't have to mow it for fire season as it gets very hot and dry here from early summer through middle to end of fall.


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## phopkinsiii (May 4, 2014)

Brad Bee said:


> How many hives do you think you could keep from starving to death with 1/4 acre back yard of wildflowers?


Two?


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Our farm is 120 acres. We run cattle and there's about 35 acres of trees, so I can't plant the whole thing in bee food.

We've got clover galore, but typically it's done by late June. There may be something that I could plant that would do well in my area and provide summer pollen, BUT it's too late for that this year. I've got to supply them pollen NOW. Still looking for the most cost effective way to do that, without baiting the hives for SHB with pollen patties as I've read so often about.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

phopkinsiii said:


> Two?


I'm not trying to be a kill joy, but I doubt 1/4 acre of mixed wildflowers would sustain a 5 frame nuc. I may be wrong, but that's my best guess.

There may be something out there, a type of clover or something, where 1/4 acre could sustain 2 hives, but then you'd have a monoculture and have a shorter bloom period and then you'd have a dearth like me.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

brad, did you have any foraging today? it was fairly strong here.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Very, very little. I have't seen any meaningful foraging in a while. I see bees in the garden in the mornings just after daylight but they aren't going to get much from the few gardens scattered about. There is a tiny amount of pollen coming in, but not enough to sustain much brood rearing and there is no nectar coming in. 

Something is blooming here and started last Saturday. It's got my allergies all in a twist but it must be something bees don't use.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

dang. that's really surprising since we are on the same ridgetop. i have no clue what they are getting into over here but there was a couple of different colors of pollen coming in all throughout the day, and for a couple of hours this afternoon it looked almost like may again. i put syrup on a couple of nucs today that got transferred to 10 frame boxes and weren't drawing any new comb.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I was going to put syrup and pollen in some nucs yesterday as well, but we ended up vaccinating cows and that never goes smoothly or as planned. Sort of like beekeeping. 

I'm going to try and get that all set up this afternoon.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

the quart of syrup i put in one at the outyard (macedonia) was empty this morning. i've noticed that the hives over there didn't get quite as far on the supers as the ones here at home. there is more pasture and row cropping over there than there is here. i did see a fair amount of pollen coming into those hives, but it may be that being near the bluff is providing a little more variety and volume in terms of forage.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Brad the chick pea flour I am referring to goes under the brand name of SHASHI Gram flour/ chick pea flour and is a product of Canada, specs I have seen claim 20- 28% protein at about $1. per lb at a super market in Fredericksburg VA. It is spread on a tray under cover so that rain or dew does not effect the flour. The bees find it and pack their baskets and carry it back to their hive. You can put any brand of pollen patty next to the flour and the bees will not touch the patty but will carry away the flour. Take it for what its worth.
Johno


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

sp, I've got 2 nucs with frame feeders in them now and will be adding more today. The two that I have installed are going through a gallon (that's what they hold) in less than a week. I think it's gonna cost a good bit to get some comb drawn. 

johno, thanks for the info. I'll give it a try. I may try putting it under a barn shed to keep it completely dry.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

johno, specifically what supermarket? Online the flour is $2.50 or more per pound.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

went out and checked the one at home i put a quart on yesterday and they are only about half way through it.


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## phopkinsiii (May 4, 2014)

Brad Bee said:


> I'm not trying to be a kill joy, but I doubt 1/4 acre of mixed wildflowers would sustain a 5 frame nuc. I may be wrong, but that's my best guess.
> 
> There may be something out there, a type of clover or something, where 1/4 acre could sustain 2 hives, but then you'd have a monoculture and have a shorter bloom period and then you'd have a dearth like me.


Oh well. They're pretty to look at. I had a 1/2 acre of buckwheat on my farm last spring and it looked like waving snow.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Brad I get the stuff from an up market place called Wegmans, are you sure it is not $2.50 a kilo.
Johno


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Yep. I've looked more on the internet and the cheapest I have found it is $2.19 per pound.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

sp, is the pollen an off white, or light tan color that your bees bringing in?

I checked mine this morning and am seeing some of that color being brought in and also a little dark yellow.

The light tan is from sweet corn and the dark yellow is from squash in ours and neighboring gardens. We have 2 short rows of sweet corn in the garden and it was being busily worked by bees this morning. 

If you have a large corn field close by that might explain the large amount of foraging that your bees are doing.


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## KiwiLad (May 18, 2015)

Randy Oliver at scientificbeekeeping.com has lots of in-depth commentary on feeding substitutes, including some comprehensive field testing results of both home-made formulae and commercial products. Look at:
A Comparative Test Of The Pollen Subs
Pollen Supplement Formula
Fat Bees- Part 2
Fat Bees – Part 3


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

brad, for the last day or two it's been mostly a bright whitesh yellow (reminds me of lemon maringue) along with a decent amount of yellowish orange (pumpkin color). there is corn and other vegetables being grown around, and a couple of the neighbors have a fair amount of ornamentals.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If you plant a plot 50'x30' of Borage then 7 nuc hives can be sustained 
through out the summer drought. I had tried it last year with very good 
result. You can also plant them in the very late Fall so that they can 
overwinter. Then in the early Spring time is when they will bloom providing
a very early source of nectar and pollen for your bees. You can scattered the
seeds by the cow fence. I'm sure the cow will not eat them since they are full of
spiky little hairs all over. They are very invasive though so plant with containment if
you can. There is also something call the succession planting too. Maybe that will help.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I've seen a few videos, and read some about feeding bees a dry pollen substitute in the fall to aid in buildup for the winter.

Mark Winston's Manifesto:
http://winstonhive.com/?p=504

"Perhaps we should cease the practice of feeding pollen supplements in the spring, as we now understand such feeding yields higher worker populations but weaker individual bees."

Yes, he was talking about the spring, but in the fall is when I REALLY don't want short lived bees...


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## phopkinsiii (May 4, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >I've seen a few videos, and read some about feeding bees a dry pollen substitute in the fall to aid in buildup for the winter.
> 
> Mark Winston's Manifesto:
> http://winstonhive.com/?p=504
> ...


That makes sense, but can you gauge the timing of feeding pollen (and nectar) substitutes by the amount of pollen that the bees are bringing in? If so, what are some rough guidelines? For example, at the height of our honey flow in April and May, every other bee coming back to the hive was carrying pollen. Now, it's like every 20th.
Are there too many variables, such as the amount of brood rearing, stage of swarm preparation, amount of existing stores of bee bread?
The main reason that I ask this question is that I live in an urban area and can't really look out my door and see what's blooming and how much.

Thanks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When I see bees gathering things that are not pollen in the fall, such as sawdust, coffee grounds, dust from chicken feed etc, then I figure there is a pollen dearth. Then I would feed pollen. Not substitute... Sometimes we have a failed fall flow and it helps a lot to feed them pollen under those circumstances...


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