# Why Pro Treatment?



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Interesting thoughts Talon, And your right, the TF group is a bit of a rabid bunch. I like the idea of TF, but the reality of of keeping bees and makeing lots of honey or super strong hives sometimes requires help. You can chose to let a lot of hives die, or you can help them out when things have gotten bad. We choose to medicate and treat ourselves and our children, and our pets. but suddenly when it comes to bees its a terible thing, a crutch, and ruining the genetic diversity... well you have read it all.

Reality is things like EFB spores are everywhere. sometimes weather can really aggravate them just like the flu you can treat and move on, or wait till it clears up. Got mites real bad late in the fall? to late to requeen? well you can treat, or shake them out on the ground. Truth is most people foolishly let them eat a lot of the honey and pollen and then die.

Treating can be expensive, but when faced with colony death, or total lossof honey season, sometimes it makes sense.

I should probably add, I tend to live the same way, I take no meds to speak of, and haven't seen a doctor for a sickness ever. But not saying i won't. just try to stay healthy and avoid that route!


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

You treat/feed/etc. because it's a standard business practice.

There's no other there, there.

If you actually had bees that didn't need treatments, and the standard business practice was not treating, then that would be the reason for not treating.

Let's not even try to pretend that we're talking about a 'bee philosophy'.

It's just a business model.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

No one wants to treat. It's expensive and time consuming, and of course it isn't a good experience for the bees - just like getting a flue shot isn’t fun for us. I treat because I think it is better than having sick bees. Just like medicating myself or my children - I try to use good judgement and use the least amount of the least harmful medication only when it makes good sense. And I'll bet that is almost a universal sentiment about it.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

You may be wrong on some level Dave. I know a lot of the larger guys who feed Antibiotics as part of a standard program. They feel it makes the hives stronger, and I can tell you most of them have great booming hives. I do not know if the treatment is the reason, but the hives are impressive~


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

*This is my view on Integrated Pest Management*

My philosophy has evolved with the times. When I first kept bees in 1976, a beekeeper didn't have to do much to have boxes full of bees. Most of what we did was to keep them from swarming. Reality has changed.

In 2011, I came back to beekeeping after 20 years. The reality is that bees have two new and potentially deadly enemies inside the hive: Small Hive Beetle and Varroa Mites.

The varroa mite vectors more than a dozen viruses into the hive and blood stream of the bees. These viruses have probably been around longer than we realized, but this new, (to European honey bees), and efficient inoculation by the mites has been devastating to apiaries and feral bees around most of the world. Yet, some crusade for you and me to use the so called 'bond method'. Let the bees live or die on their own, they insist that nature should take its course. 

I reject the bond method as folly. There are easy and inexpensive methods to deter the mites and let the bees live as they have for millions of years. Integrated Pest Management (IPM) is the most reasonable course of action in my view. You can choose any philosophy you wish, but I'd appreciate it if you kindly leave me alone about using something to manage the mites; and I will leave you alone as well if you choose another path. 

Buy bees or queens from treatment free people if you can. You will have a better chance of success that way. When/If your bees show signs of varroosis, Change queens and/or treat for mites. There are naturally occurring and legal products like Thymol or formic acid that do well against the mites. Much of the world uses oxalic acid (OA), either dribble or by sublimation, to effectively knock the mite level down. Unfortunately, OA isn't legal in the USA. Bees have various levels of resistance to the synthetic miticides, I'll avoid them....but, that is just my bent. 

My best hive this year overwintering with three deeps:
From a treatment free queen breeder. Used hopguard and brood breaks this Spring. Noticed a pile of bees in front of the hive two weeks ago (75 F, sunny weather). I saw no deformed wings. One (my first ever) treatment of oxalic acid (sublimation) revealed thousands and thousands of mites on the bottom of the hive. Don't want to force my bees to live with that many blood suckers when it is easy to kill them.

I guess I've come over to the dark side. 

HTH talon


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

gmcharlie said:


> You may be wrong on some level Dave. I know a lot of the larger guys who feed Antibiotics as part of a standard program. They feel it makes the hives stronger, and I can tell you most of them have great booming hives. I do not know if the treatment is the reason, but the hives are impressive~


I'm not trying to play some kind of word game, but I assume those guys are doing what they need to do to achieve their goals and make a living based on their own best judgment. At least I hope so.

Who knows what the long term implications of those practices are, but if bees can experience happiness I bet they are happier in those impressive hives than they would be in lackluster ones.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

For those making a living off bees or whatever it is, sometimes treating is just cheap insurance for a predictable and positive outcome. Looking at say almonds here, with prices for nuts at their current level, profits are pretty high and it's easy to spend $7 an acre to spray preventative pesticides then deal with 'possible' yield losses or pests later down the road. Honestly, I believe treatment free success depends a lot on location as much as anything.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I can tell you why I put Apistan strips in my hives from the first time back in 1988(?). Because we had a new pest and no other known way of addressing it other than letting colonies die.

Steve Taber told us that we could either treat colonies for mites or, if we wanted to produce bees that could stand mites and not treat we could all go belly up and in 30 years we would have mite tolerant bees.

Faced w/ those two choices, treat or go belly up, what would anyone making a living at beekeeping do? It wasn't just the bees who would go thru The Bond Method, it would have been the Commercial Beekeepers.

Looking back now one might be able to see other alternatives. Those alternatives are hard to see when you are engulfed in the crisis and even harder to get established w/ good results.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Are people who don't like the standard business practice having much luck, making much headway, at establishing an alternate standard business practice?

Because until someone can truly set up a commercially viable alternative to standard industry practices, those who disdainfully scoff at what the industry as a whole is doing to sustain itself are spitting into the wind.

I am not from Missouri, but you gotta show me. You've really got to put up glowing examples of the alternatives in a manner acceptable to those you are trying to convince. Otherwise you will only get your disdain reflected back at you. Do you really expect anything different? Why would you? Whoever you are.

Good Thread TR. Thanks for putting things the way you did.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Why would any organic beekeepers want anything to do with almonds?

They have a completely different business model than the one that the 'commercial' folks are using.

They make nice candles, gift honey, etc. .

Why would a commercial operation even bother with that?

It's just a business.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

WLC said:


> They have a completely different business model than the one that the 'commercial' folks are using. They make nice candles, gift honey, etc. .
> 
> Why would a commercial operation even bother with that? It's just a business.


So yesterday, when you were promoting the idea of subsidies for beekeepers, you weren't talking about _commercial _bee keepers? :scratch:



WLC said:


> What would it cost to subsidize beekeeping in the U.S.? 300-500 million?
> It's a drop in the bucket compared to the increased productivity managed pollinators can provide.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291539-quot-Keyboard-Beekeepers-quot/page14


Did you have in mind $500,000,000.00 subsidies for _candlemakers_? 


:ws:

:gh:


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

WLC said:


> Why would a commercial operation even bother with that?
> 
> It's just a business.


Mark, can you shed some light on the Root company's move to candles? Time was, A. I. Root was a big bee and equipment supplier. What happened?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Time was A.I. Root himself started the first Bee Equipment manufacturing company in the World followed by C.P. (I think those were his initials) Dadant.

I cannot say what took Root from Bee Equipment and Candles, they always made candles, to just candles and a Magazine. Which I always heard referred to in shorthand as "Gleanings", not "Bee Culture". I think "Bee Culture" Editor Kim Flottum wrote about the transition in one of his Editorials this past year and has been featuring historical articles the last year or two which may address your question.

I toured the Main Offices in Medina a number of times while in OH for a cpl years, before Kim's arrival. It seemed to be a smaller venture then, in 1984 and 5, than Kelley Co in Clarkson, KY. I recall a personal tour by Mr. Kelley. Quite a guy. I would have loved to have worked for him.

That's no real answer. I don't really know enough to give you an answer. I imagine it has to do w/ economics and where A.I.'s grandson wanted to take the company.

You could e-mail Kim Flottum and ask him. He could probably give you the best answer, the most complete answer. Sorry.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

*Re: This is my view on Integrated Pest Management*



Lburou said:


> I reject the bond method as folly. There are easy and inexpensive methods to deter the mites and let the bees live as they have for millions of years. Integrated Pest Management (IPM) is the most reasonable course of action in my view. You can choose any philosophy you wish, but I'd appreciate it if you kindly leave me alone about using something to manage the mites; and I will leave you alone as well if you choose another path.
> 
> ....Don't want to force my bees to live with that many blood suckers when it is easy to kill them.
> 
> I guess I've come over to the dark side.


YES! and again...YES!!!

Rusty


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

*Re: This is my view on Integrated Pest Management*

Removed by lburou.


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

*Re: This is my view on Integrated Pest Management*

I treat because I prefer live bees.


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## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

*Re: This is my view on Integrated Pest Management*

This is a good thread. Thanks TR.

I'm a small time hobbiest and started out as treatment free. That turned out to be frustrating and expensive which is not what you want from a hobby. I started treating because (1) it keeps my bees alive, (2) it's way cheaper than buying packages to replace lost hives, and (3) I'm proud when I see the look on other beekeepers faces when I tell them I didn't lose any hives over the winter.


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## oldfordguy (Dec 5, 2009)

Not to split hairs, but although Root started his company in 1869, the G.B Lewis company of Watertown, Wisconson was founded in 1863 manufacturing Beekeeping equipment, and was considered the largest producer of said equipment for many years. Dadant partnered with the Lewis company selling woodenware and foundation, until I believe Dadant bought the woodenware business from Lewis.


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

When mite levels reach my determined threshold I will treat with one of the non hard chemicals to reduce the levels. I refuse to stick my head in the sand and watch my bees die. If the mite levels don't reach the threshold, great ! Less work, and expense, for me and stress to the bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The world needs both.

One of the reasons humans have successfully overrun the planet is the differences in personality. There are for example, practical people, and dreamers. Or, brave people, and cowards. All have their place in the scheme of things.

For example, in battles of ancient times, a very brave side may have won the day. But, if they lost, the cowards among them who ran away, would be the ones who ensured the line was continued.

I see it the same with beekeeping. There are all sorts of beekeepers, from geniuses to idiots. Right wingers to left wingers. Goal and profit motivated, to process motivated.

As they all transfer their personal philosophies onto their bees and force their bees to live and die by them, bees in the US over the last few decades, appear to have greater average mite tolerance, than they did when mites first arrived. Hopefully this process will continue. Treatment free Bond fanatics to trial bees under harsh conditions to see what survives, Commercial beekeepers to sell the treatment free beekeepers packages if they lose all their bees, and highly educated researchers using proven scientific method to methodically test, research, and breed for, better bees.

And oh. WLC.


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

Interesting thread.
What is the treatment you like best?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

You mean, "Keyboard Beekeepers"?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That too. WLC, keyboard beekeeper. Keeper, we are told, of 2 Huge Tim Ives Tower Of Power Hives, that are secret, not for public viewing, just for keyboarding.

But no doubt all part of the greater scheme.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Don't forget the probiotic LAB fermented milk and syrup that I fed them early on.

Tut, tut, tut. It's not a treatment.

It's probiotic.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Two Huge Tim Ives Tower Of Power Not Treated Probiotic Hives


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

My Apologies.

WLC. Keyboard Beekeeper. Keeper, we are told, of 2 Huge Tim Ives Tower Of Power Hives, that are secret, not for public viewing, just for keyboarding.

And not least, non treatment feeder of fermented milk.

Somethings gotta work.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I'll see if they're towers of power in late winter/early spring.

I hope they don't turn into '3 swarming deeps'.

I really do want to find out how mite resistant they are though.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I've always assumed that the reason people treat is that they can't figure out how to keep their bees alive and productive unless they do.

Is that wrong?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Businesses treat because of due diligence and standard practices.

Individuals can do as they please.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

rhaldridge said:


> I've always assumed that the reason people treat is that they can't figure out how to keep their bees alive and productive unless they do.


Correct, kinda. I'd rephrase somewhat though, here goes - I've always assumed that the reason people treat is that they can't figure out how to keep their bees alive and *at maximum productivity* unless they do.

Battling the (according to the bee survey) average treatment free losses of close to 50% annually, makes it pretty hard to achieve maximum productivity. You don't even get much from the surviving 50% cos you have to milk bees off them to fix up the dead 50%.


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Correct, kinda. I'd rephrase somewhat though, here goes - I've always assumed that the reason people treat is that they can't figure out how to keep their bees alive and *at maximum productivity* unless they do.
> 
> Battling the (according to the bee survey) average treatment free losses of close to 50% annually, makes it pretty hard to achieve maximum productivity. You don't even get much from the surviving 50% cos you have to milk bees off them to fix up the dead 50%.


Interesting. I haven't seen that survey. Where can I find it? And according to that survey what is the % of losses for those who treat?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

rhaldridge said:


> I've always assumed that the reason people treat is that they can't figure out how to keep their bees alive and productive unless they do.
> 
> Is that wrong?


Sure that's probably true. I imagine something just as pejorative could be concocted about treatment free if one was trying to be insulting. But that's not what is going on here is it?

The reason people treat is that it is the most expedient way to keep bees alive and productive that they can figure out. But that is exactly what you just said isn't it?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

sterling said:


> Interesting. I haven't seen that survey. Where can I find it? And according to that survey what is the % of losses for those who treat?


Those who treat, supposedly around 30%.

The whole thing is based on what's reported though. A lot of time people see their hive decline, then when it is on deaths door and beyond saving, they can't stand it any more so reluctantly treat it, but it dies. This then gets included in the figures for losses of hives that were treated.

An "informal" survey that was done on the commercial forum here, most commercial beekeepers reported winter losses of 10 to 20%.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I treat with Bt, because when I don't I lose lots of otherwise, perfectly good comb. Old comb, new comb, dark comb, or light comb; comb that contains pollen, and comb that is so thin it's almost transparent; they are all subject to destruction by wax moth larvae. Placement of comb seems to make little difference, comb that is in use by very strong colonies, or comb kept outside, exposed to air and light, they are all quickly destroyed, if not protected by Bt treatments.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

OT, 30% losses across the US includes all sorts of beekeeping techniques.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

scorpionmain said:


> Interesting thread.
> What is the treatment you like best?


I'll admit, I would prefer no treatment. However, I use "softer" treatments when necessary. I have only used essential oils when mites got high, until I started using my fgmo fogger.I test mite populations with mite checks before I deem it necessary to treat. I do not treat for nosema until I see symptoms of it, and the same goes for foul brood, and other bacterial diseases. I have only had to use the oil and fgmo so far. Bacteria evolve quickly, so the less treating the better. Quarantining is a good practice too for sick colonies. I actually have a yard dedicated for quarantine. It's not that I'm "against" treating. It's just that I see a difference between a small operation such as myself where honey is the primary means of profit vs the larger operations where pollination services and selling package bees and queens are the goal of the business. It's apples vs oranges from the replies I have seen in the two threads concerning treatment vs no treatment. I can actually sympathize with both opinions considering the circumstances and timeline of things when the troubles hit back in the 80's. What's a person to do when they run thousands of colonies, and a disease or pest threatens the existence of their livelihood? It's not like they can just start again over night. On the other hand, the best time to get a treatment free system is starting out with it. I like to hear both sides of the story, and I am not going to play the judge and point my finger at a group of people. That's immature, and it occurs all too often, and not only among Beekeepers. I hope that answers your question thoroughly.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> As they all transfer their personal philosophies onto their bees and force their bees to live and die by them, bees in the US over the last few decades, appear to have greater average mite tolerance, than they did when mites first arrived. Hopefully this process will continue. Treatment free Bond fanatics to trial bees under harsh conditions to see what survives, Commercial beekeepers to sell the treatment free beekeepers packages if they lose all their bees, and highly educated researchers using proven scientific method to methodically test, research, and breed for, better bees.
> 
> And oh. WLC.


That's an interesting way of putting it, for sure.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

TalonRedding said:


> That's an interesting way of putting it, for sure.


Interesting? Actually I would like to nominate it (post #21) for "Post of the Year" in the category "Cleverest use of 250 words or less". Funny and pretty much on the mark.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> OT, 30% losses across the US includes all sorts of beekeeping techniques.


Yes, well my old brain hasn't got it all sorted out. I'm assuming that if total average losses for all methods are around 30%, but TF losses are around 45%, then treated hive losses must be lower than 30%, perhaps more in line with what came out of the "unofficial" survey in the commercial forum.

But straight up I can't quite put it all together based on the format of the info given, so I've just gone with 30% loss for treated hives so as not to offend anyone who wants to think they are that high. 

Still waiting for the final results of the last survey btw....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Which survey is that?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Winter Loss, 2012 - 2013.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I think that the AIA (Apiary Inspectors of America) meet during the ABF (American Beekeeping Federation) Meeting in January. So you only have a cpl more weeks to wait.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK. The info at this stage is indicative but not fully useful.

Have to temper that against that it's not really a fully random sample anyway, but probably as useful as anything out there.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Plus, how do Apiary Inspection Programs come by this information? Anecdotally gathered data? It isn't like every beekeeper in each State is actually getting a visit from an Inspector and getting surveyed. So, I wonder if what AIA has to report comes from estimates.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well, I tried to fill in the survey myself but was rejected because I'm foreign. However I did get to see the questions, they are pretty straight forward, pretty black and white.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> My Apologies.
> 
> WLC. Keyboard Beekeeper. Keeper, we are told, of 2 Huge Tim Ives Tower Of Power Hives, that are secret, not for public viewing, just for keyboarding.
> 
> ...


ANd don't forget dumpster honey!


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

One of the other things to consider for larger scale guys, and that is the basics of inspection. when face with say EFB in the yards, and you have 100's of hives. you don't have time to go thru each one and see which are okay and which are not, or quarantine. so a blanket treatment is in order.

Those of us with fewer hives have luxuries the do not


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

On the other hand charlie, I look at, handle inspect each colony I have when they are in SC during the Spring. Looking at almost every comb w/ brood. So finding AFB or EFB shouldn't be a problem. I don't blanket treat w/ TM. Just don't use it. It doesn't seem economical for me.

Around 480 colonies taken South this Fall.

Now I can see how it would be easier for someone w/ 5 times as many as me, w/ workers, to simply throw on the dust, but that size an operation is looking at their colonies too, making splits and all, so they find disease problems that way too.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Not the point Mark, you guys are touting TF again in a post that was trying to go the other way. Didn't say you can't or shouldn't.... Just telling you the reality. 
If you had 5000 hives would you really be willing to risk transfer of something to all of them?? or would you treat them all??

Do you only vaccinate your kids when the neighbors come down with something??


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Do you only vaccinate your kids when the neighbors come down with something??

 Do you dose _your _kids with antibiotics when the _neighbor's _kid cuts his arm on a rusty nail?


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Sure can use it as a reason to update the Tetnus... yes...

Again.. arguing for TF I think thats refered to as off topic


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I wasn't arguing _for _or _against _anything. And if medications given to children is off topic, why did *you *bring it up? :scratch:


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

My husband was helping our grandson with his Algebra the other day. He said: "You can't take short cuts until you understand the process."

Treatment free+ beginners usually = do nothing= great return customer for the package industry.

You'll never get those big established hives that have unlimited management options and grab a gear production wise. If you don't understand mites and don't learn to overwinter successfully, you will miss out on the spectacular wonders of the established hive.

Please go to my facebook page shown below for more info and photos.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I wasn't arguing _for _or _against _anything. And if medications given to children is off topic, why did *you *bring it up? :scratch:


I was commenting on the argument against treating being off topic... seems a WLC and a cpl other felt the need to add comments when the topic was exactly opposite of what the want to preach.

I personaly TRY to shut up when I know nothing or am against the topic. Sometimes a little blurb just to get on the list.... But I make it a point to try not to point out my personal disagremts with the philosophy. such as keeping bees and not collecting honey. Just sit quietly and chuckle...


Lauri not sure what in that post got you upset, but I hate to see that.

Just a thought though, your not correct on Big hives being only possible with TF... I have personally seen a lot of HUGE hives with guys who treat regularly.... Actually seen a few that outright scare you with the numbers of bees. TF people want to make a lot of claims, from what I have seen most have little time spent in actually bigger bee yards. I won't say keyboard beekeepers, but defiantly not very worldly in the bigger beeyards. How many of them a have ever even been to the sacremento valley? let alone during almonds? or seen The huge yards on berries or oranges?? IF you have never been in a yard with 1000 hives, then how do you get to claim your way for two dozen is the best in the world and teh only way beekeeping survives??

I am a little guy.... and I know it.... so when the bigger guys talk, I try to shut up.(not always sucsessful) but I do know I have NEVER argued with someones success.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Sometimes a little blurb just to get on the list

One can _subscribe _to a thread without posting. Click the "_Thread Tools_" link above, then "_Subscribe_".


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Oh thanks Rader, that's handy.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Lauri said:


> My husband.......said: "You can't take short cuts until you understand the process."
> 
> Treatment free+ beginners usually = do nothing= great return customer for the package industry.
> 
> ...


Cutting to the meat of the issue as usual, you are.


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > Sometimes a little blurb just to get on the list
> 
> One can _subscribe _to a thread without posting. Click the "_Thread Tools_" link above, then "_Subscribe_".


I am guilty of & kinda like the "Old School Tag" to follow a thread myself.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

gmcharlie said:


> Not the point Mark, you guys are touting TF again in a post that was trying to go the other way. Didn't say you can't or shouldn't.... Just telling you the reality.
> If you had 5000 hives would you really be willing to risk transfer of something to all of them?? or would you treat them all??
> 
> Do you only vaccinate your kids when the neighbors come down with something??


Well, first of all, I do not tout TF, ask Solomon. I just don't use TM, don't use it propholactically. I also know AFB, what it looks like, and how it gets around. My experience is that use of TM does not prevent AFB from occuring. Guys who use TM still have cases. I don't know what I would do if I had 5,000. Maybe you are right.

Secondly, childhood vacinations and annual use of TM are not apples and oranges, they're apples and hamburgers.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Agreed, I don't us TM at all myself, but I know several who mix it regulary with feed, and have Hives that make me envious.... of course they have better locations and weather...... so not sure what the largest issue is.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

gmcharlie said:


> Again.. arguing for TF I think thats refered to as off topic


Who is doing that?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

gmcharlie said:


> I am a little guy.... and I know it.... so when the bigger guys talk, I try to shut up.(not always sucsessful) but I do know I have NEVER argued with someones success.


75" tall, 328lbs and 480 colonies at last count.  Not big enough for you not to argue with? lol


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## kelly (May 23, 2013)

Well i will treat my bees this spring since i lost a hive this past fall to mites Our first year so I was trying to let nature take its course, and it did. I will research the different treatments this winter and hopefully can come up with a treatment ok for bees and a killer to the mites. I'm open for suggestions!


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## kelly (May 23, 2013)

*Re: This is my view on Integrated Pest Management*

I'm looking forward to that day!


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Lburou said:


> *This is my view on Integrated Pest Management*
> 
> My philosophy has evolved with the times. When I first kept bees in 1976, a beekeeper didn't have to do much to have boxes full of bees. Most of what we did was to keep them from swarming. Reality has changed.
> 
> ...


Are you still treatment free?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

thegospelisgood said:


> Are you still treatment free?


thegospelisgood,

You first should verify if the person is even active on the forum (the thread being from 2013).
People are coming and people are leaving.
Might as well look at the TF sub-forum member listings and ask them all.
Actually, IF you do that - I am very interested to see that - a survey IF they are still TF after the original statement.
That'd be useful and interesting.
A matter of fact, any sustaining and practicing TF members would be the ones learn something from (hopefully).


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

GregB said:


> thegospelisgood,
> 
> You first should verify if the person is even active on the forum (the thread being from 2013).
> People are coming and people are leaving.
> ...


It says they were last seen 2mo ago I think. I am surveying people intentionally.


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

GregB said:


> thegospelisgood,
> 
> You first should verify if the person is even active on the forum (the thread being from 2013).
> People are coming and people are leaving.
> ...


And you can feel free to call me James - or - TGIG works too...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

thegospelisgood said:


> .... last seen 2mo ago ...
> I am surveying people intentionally.



TGIG, Thanks!
Approved - a good and worthwhile project, IMO.


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## rdimanin (Jan 17, 2020)

Lburou said:


> *This is my view on Integrated Pest Management*
> 
> My philosophy has evolved with the times. When I first kept bees in 1976, a beekeeper didn't have to do much to have boxes full of bees. Most of what we did was to keep them from swarming. Reality has changed.
> 
> ...


OA is legal to use on colonies in the USA and has been allowed for years.. I have no idea where you got such erroneous information that OA was illegal.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

rdimanin said:


> OA is legal to use on colonies in the USA and has been allowed for years.. I have no idea where you got such erroneous information that OA was illegal.


No idea???

The post by _Lburou_ that you quoted was made in 2013. At that time the EPA had NOT approved the use of oxalic acid as a varroa control, therefore the use of "OA" was indeed illegal.

EPA approval happened in 2015. Here is a general summary:








EPA Okays Oxalic Acid for Varroa Mite Control — Los Angeles County Beekeepers Association


ABJ Extra March 12, 2015 Registration Decision for the New Active Ingredient Oxalic Acid Summary This document announces the decision by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to register the new active ingredient oxalic acid for use against the Varro




www.losangelescountybeekeepers.com


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

I was treatment free for about 6 months.

But I wanted to be a beekeeper, not a beekiller. I had mites in my hives. A lot of mites.

I am not a good beekeeper. Unlike some, I did not see my two hives (at the time) as part of some noble cause. Just a way to get a little honey. I got some oxalic acid. It is about as benign as you can get. My bees made it through the winter. 

I resisted the temptation to write a book explaining my beekeeping methods, mostly because it would be too much work.

Funny thing, the mites were very stubborn. No matter what I did, they kept coming back.

I tried to trap some feral swarms, because everyone knows that feral swarms are immune to mites.

But there was something wrong with the feral swarms in my area. They must have interbred with the weak, sickly, treated bees.

They got mites. Lots of mites. So I got out the oxalic acid again. It worked. My feral swarms became nice colonies. They survived the winter.

So now I'm just a bad beekeeper. I treat for mites every year. I don't even do mite checks. I just treat. Because I am lazy. My bees do pretty well.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

In 1966, when I first started keeping my own bees, I was 9 years old. I had been observing bees since I was 6 years old. I've been keeping bees in various parts of the USA since then. Back then I was a subscriber to both "Gleanings in Bee Culture" and "American Bee Journal". In the late 60's and early 70's, thanks to my readings, I once purchased some Fumidil B and Terramycin, because I was sure I needed them. I never did, need them, they went unused.

For a time, somewhere in there, I was too busy to keep following the bee magazines. Then, in the early 90's, once I'd relocated to Marana, AZ from La Cienega, NM, a suburb of Santa Fe, I picked up, what was now, "Bee Culture". I had already gotten some bees going at my new location, I did a cut-out from beneath a neighbors mobile home. Once I began reading, Bee Culture again, I learned of the current status of AHB (Africanized Honey B*ee)*, and about Varroa mites. I also learned, even then, how that, without treatments my colonies wouldn't last more than 1 year. I decided to wait and see. Sure, no matter when or where I was, at the time, I always lost some colonies, for various obvious or obscure reasons. But, this time, I split my one colony and soon had six. The six lasted the better part of a decade, without a single loss. I knew my bees had the Varroa, every so often I would see them, crawling on the brood comb, or hanging on a bees thorax, I even had many crawling bees, which I learned had DWV (Deformed Wing Virus), but I had a deeply engrained, "wait and see" ideology. I'm still waiting and seeing. It looks interesting.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Joseph Clemens said:


> In 1966, when I first started keeping my own bees, I was 9 years old. I had been observing bees since I was 6 years old. I've been keeping bees in various parts of the USA since then. Back then I was a subscriber to both "Gleanings in Bee Culture" and "American Bee Journal". In the late 60's and early 70's, thanks to my readings, I once purchased some Fumidil B and Terramycin, because I was sure I needed them. I never did, need them, they went unused.
> 
> For a time, somewhere in there, I was too busy to keep following the bee magazines. Then, in the early 90's, once I'd relocated to Marana, AZ from La Cienega, NM, a suburb of Santa Fe, I picked up, what was now, "Bee Culture". I had already gotten some bees going at my new location, I did a cut-out from beneath a neighbors mobile home. Once I began reading, Bee Culture again, I learned of the current status of AHB (Africanized Honey B*ee)*, and about Varroa mites. I also learned, even then, how that, without treatments my colonies wouldn't last more than 1 year. I decided to wait and see. Sure, no matter when or where I was, at the time, I always lost some colonies, for various obvious or obscure reasons. But, this time, I split my one colony and soon had six. The six lasted the better part of a decade, without a single loss. I knew my bees had the Varroa, every so often I would see them, crawling on the brood comb, or hanging on a bees thorax, I even had many crawling bees, which I learned had DWV (Deformed Wing Virus), but I had a deeply engrained, "wait and see" ideology. I'm still waiting and seeing. It looks interesting.


Beekeeping is local.
I don't think that would work as well in SE Wisconsin. Summers are OK, but winters are pretty hard on the bees.
Glad it is working for you.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> Beekeeping is local.
> *I don't think that would work as well in SE Wisconsin.* Summers are OK, but winters are pretty hard on the bees.
> Glad it is working for you.


+1
Granted our closest, regional TF bee/queen distributor is located in the very heart of SE Wisconsin.
Contact | Lloyd Street Bees (lloydstbees.com)

But they run hundreds of colonies and invest a lot of work into the project - to achieve what they have now.
What they do is not possible with residential 5-10 colony project - not in SE WI or SC WI for that matter (unless, maybe right next door to the Lloyd Street bees and buying everything from them).


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

A Novice said:


> Beekeeping is local.
> I don't think that would work as well in SE Wisconsin. Summers are OK, but winters are pretty hard on the bees.
> Glad it is working for you.


I do understand, I've kept bees in Washington state, Waynesboro, VA, Key, OH, Fort Walton Beach, FL, Lompoc, CA, Westminster, CA, Norco, CA, then Santa Fe (La Cienega), NM. I went from La Cienega (winter temps -13F), with snow up to my hips, to Marana, AZ. I'm sure some of my losses, if not all, in those colder areas, were mostly due to the local climate.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Joseph Clemens said:


> I do understand, I've kept bees in Washington state, Waynesboro, VA, Key, OH, Fort Walton Beach, FL, Lompoc, CA, Westminster, CA, Norco, CA, then Santa Fe (La Cienega), NM. I went from La Cienega (winter temps -13F), with snow up to my hips, to Marana, AZ. I'm sure some of my losses, if not all, in those colder areas, were mostly due to the local climate.


Yup.
It works in many places. Not so well in others.
Treating isn't virtuous. Treatment free isn't virtuous. It is what you do in order to be successful. Would love to stop treating, but every time I have, I get Parasitic mite syndrome (snotty brood) and have to do some real heroics to save the colony. Not always successful.

If I move, I will try it again. One problem here is a lot of wannabeekeepers with their warre hives and no treatments. They only last a year or so, but there are a lot of them. Endless supply of people trying to "save the bees" who are killing my bees....


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Yep, quite so.


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