# Priming cells



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Priming the cell is adding a drop of RJ in the center of the cell to aid in removing the larva from the end of the grafting tool. The jelly also helps keep the larva from drying out until the bar of cells is placed in the cell starter.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

you answered your own question. Priming is wetting the inside of a queen cup prior to grafting, typically with royal jelly.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

burns375 said:


> you answered your own question. Priming is wetting the inside of a queen cup prior to grafting, typically with royal jelly.


I talk to myself a lot so that's not uncommon. LOL

So..... I guess you just get royal jelly out of cells you don't use to graft from? With the grafting tool, a needle and syringe, or something else? 

Can you put too much? Is there any benefit from putting a lot of it in there?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I collect RJ out of swarm cells that I destroy. I put it in a small container and keep it in the freezer. On graft day I put a small amount of the jelly in a recycled communion cup and mix in a little warm water, you don't want to shock the larva when you put it on the jelly. I make the jelly about twice as thick as evaporated milk. I use the blunt end of my grafting tool to put the jelly in the cup, I dip the end and touch the center of the cup. I put a little drop about 3mm in diameter, all you need is enough to float off the larva from the hook of the grafting tool. The bees will replace the jelly with fresh food when you put the graft in the cell builder.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

i use a distilled water. I don't add much just enough to wet the bottom of a cup. Just try it out you will get the hang of it, it east.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Never saw the need to prime or have the bees polish the cells. A large queen rearer (is that a word?) here (in excess of 7000 cells and queens yearly) does not either.........


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

There are special tool to collect the RJ to be use later on.
If you are professional then you can suck the Rj off with the special tool and put in another larva to make more for the next harvest without damaging the cell. I just use the end of a small teaspoon to scoop them out of the cells. These are the extra cells that I don't need.
If the cell takes then putting too much in is good for the larva to develop. But if the cells got rejected all the extra Rj you put in will be recycled by the bees. It is a waste of time to put a lot in. Almost 50% got rejected the first try. Let the nurse bees deposit more for the cells is better.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Hello!

Priming cells is necessary if you graft with a tool that picks up the larva; a hook or needle type grafting tool. The priming fluid uses cohesion to help "pull" the larva from the tool.

Some large queen producers prime, some do not. Most who do, use a 50% mixture of royal jelly and distilled water. It keeps in the fridge for a few weeks. Pure royal jelly will keep longer.

Nurse bees remove all the priming fluid and then add their own royal jelly to the developing cells. 


Using a grafting tool like a "Chinese grafting tool" allows you to scoop up the larva AND a bed of jelly, to deposit both in the cell cup. 

This is "dry-grafting". If all is going smoothly (properly aged and fed larva, and enough sleep/coffee  ) you can graft quite a few cells efficiently without priming cell cups.

One disadvantage of priming cells is the possible outbreak of Black Queen Cell virus (BQCV). Cells primed with any royal jelly have a greater chance of breaking down with BQCV as the virus is

transmitted through the nurse bees' production of royal jelly. Of course, folks who do prime their cells have other means to control BQCV and understand why BQCV may appear:* stress!*


A very good queen producer explained to me that cell builders are under extreme stress and thus are weakened in their defense against pathogens.

I used to prime all my grafted cells with great success until I had one outbreak of BQCV that took me down for a month. That hurt! 

I switched over to dry-grafting and my BQCV ceased. I had to relearn how to graft using a spoon-like tool (chinese grafting tool). Perfectly fed larva are the key to using one efficiently.

Adam
http://vpqueenbees.com


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## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

i usually use a mix of sugar siroup. maybe 60%water and 40% sugar. i try to have it room temperature, and i use a pulverizer to spreay that over my cell cups before i graft. 
i know RJ is not easy to get when you have a few hives, and it is also , in my opinion , too much work for the same results. 

remember, less is best in beepeeping. i did it without anything, and i gort 28-29 cells our of 30 take, and i did it with the sugar mix or RJ mix, and got the same. it all depends on your hand, and key thing is not to hurt the larvae. very important. if you touch it the bees will take it out. use a magnifier glass, the one with the light included. i bought one from office depot or staples. those things that you can fix on your desk, it was ablut $75, and it works great.

try several ways of dooing it, and see wich one works best for you and your operation. the last ones i did were without any priming ,and they worked just fine, but i only needed 12 cells, so i eate the RJ of the other ones )

have a great week




Brad Bee said:


> Didn't want to hijack another thread...
> 
> What does priming cells mean, or what is the procedure for doing that?
> 
> Also do any of you put extra royal jelly in the cells before grafting?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What does priming cells mean, or what is the procedure for doing that? 
>Also do any of you put extra royal jelly in the cells before grafting?

That is what priming is.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearingsimplified.htm#c6

"Before grafting, a supply of royal jelly is necessary. Some very successful queen-breeders report they get satisfactory results without its use; but I have never been able to procure as large acceptance or as good strong queens without it. (Transcriber's note: Jay Smith changed his mind on this.) J.W. George of El Centro, California, gave to the beekeeping fraternity a valuable little kink when he explained that royal jelly can be bottled and kept in perfect condition from one season to another. I have practiced this to advantage, and find one of the great difficulties of queen-rearing is thereby removed.

"If you have no royal jelly on hand, a colony may be made queenless until they build queen-cells, when you can get the jelly from them. After the first grafting, some of the jelly in a few cells you have produced may be used; but, in this way you continually destroy good queen cells.

"As a container for royal jelly, I use a small porcelain jar with a screw cap. A piece of waxed cardboard in the cover makes it air-tight. Let me offer a suggestion as to where you can get one of these jars. Make a raid on your wife's manicuring outfit, and, if luck is with you, you will find one of these jars. To be sure that luck will be with you, better do it when she is out. This jar usually has some pink dope in it. Take this out, put it into a tin can, present it to your wife with your compliments and make off with the jar. Thoroughly sterilize this jar by boiling, for the bees seem to object to the funny smell that comes with it. If your wife does not have this, or if you do not have a wife, you can go to the drug store and find just the size and style that suit you. The dope looks as though it might be of use if you put it into the grease cups of your flivver, but I do not want to suggest too many dangerous experiments for you to try all at once. For a jelly spoon, I prefer to make one out of the bone handle of a toothbrush, which also may be found in the manicuring outfit. Break off the brush and whittle down the small end until it fits nicely into a worker-cell. This jelly spoon and the jelly jar are to be carried in the pocket of your trousers or dress, whichever you wear. While working with your bees during the season you will be running across colonies that have royal jelly to spare. Whenever a swarm issues, just take out the jar and spoon and get the royal jelly. I have found that I come across enough in my regular work so that I never have to make any special hunt for jelly. It is well to have two of these jars; keep one in your pocket and the other in the grafting room."--Jay Smith, Queen Rearing Simplified (1923) Chapter VII.

But later in Better Queens, Smith says:

"We used to prime our cells with bee milk but, after careful examination, believe it was a detriment, for the first thing the bees do is to remove all the milk we had put in. Grafting in bare cells is better-or rather not so bad."--Jay Smith Better Queens (1949)


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Pardon the question, Adam, but do you use a combined starter/finisher or run them separate? Use a Cloake Board? 

I'm still running multiple methods, usually Cloake Board and a Michael Palmer/Brother Adam setup, but I'm still trying other setups.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

Priming? Use to. Thought it was necessary for grafting and an additional hedge against low humidity problems.

But a Chinese grafting tool cured any need for priming when grafting. And thinned royal jelly works just like white glue unless proper precautions are taken. Then, I learned that through time, the bees alter the composition of royal jelly fed to a larva. So, thinking I might improve on the situation, I did a little testing by varying its age and composition.



royal jelly was harvested from different age unsealed cells.
it was thinned with different amounts of distilled water/sugar concentrations.
larva were grafted.
queens evaluated.

But as my tag line says and Smith discovered, once you learn more, it's just so much easier and better to get out of the bee's way. Those tests produced some really bizarre results.

After that, no more priming. And not even a passing thought of double grafting, etc.

-dm


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I guess I'm in the minority as one of the few who don't like the Chinese tool. I prefer the JZ-BZ tool. To remove larvae using this tool, you need something in the bottom of the cells to help release the larvae from the tool. What I do is steal a *tiny* amount of RJ from the surrounding cells in the grafting frame. I don't believe that this practice increases the likelihood of BQCV, because its basically the same RJ that the Chinese tool is transferring with the chosen larvae. I am not collecting RJ and storing it for later use. Please note that I'm not suggesting that there is some advantage to the queens from using RJ in this fashion, it it simply to facilitate moving the larvae without problems.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi AstroBee

Neat.

I tried the JZ-BZ tool. Figured I was too fat fingered to make it work efficiently. Looks like I just couldn't figure it out. 

-dm


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

BWrangler said:


> Looks like I just couldn't figure it out.
> 
> -dm



I taught a queen rearing class last weekend that included a good amount of time grafting. I had 3 different types of grafting tools for the students to select from: several Chinese tools, one JZ-BZ, and one stainless steel tool. I let the students pick their tool. There was a good mix of students (male and female). I was surprised that some picked up grafting very quickly and others struggled. Some did very well with the Chinese tool and others did well with the JZ-BZ tool. I believe that its just personal preference, but the Chinese tool allows dry grafting, while the others are greatly helped by having a tiny amount of prime in the cups.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If I can pick it up with the JZ-BZ tool it's bigger than I like a larvae to be for grafting...


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

I've experimented grafted with numerous thing, such as straight royal jelly from other cells, diluted royal jelly, syrup, honey, and plain water. I've not noticed much difference in the results. However, depending on the tool one uses, having some sort of liquid in the cup can greatly help depositing the larva without harming it, regardless of what it is.

What matters more than what you use for priming is making sure you have enough nurses in the starter colony to promptly feed the grafts. Odds are, in a proper starter colony, whatever you put under your larvae won't stay there for long anyways.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I graft (Dry) with a tiny paint brush and use the grid system. My resulting cells are about the same. But my starter, cell builder colonies are in top shape and well fed. Every year I get better at managing them. I don't second guessing the grafting procedure.



















I do however, use my royal jelly for other things. Heres a hint:


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> If I can pick it up with the JZ-BZ tool it's bigger than I like a larvae to be for grafting...


Hmmm.... perhaps you need some magnification: http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/LED-Magnifying-Glass/productinfo/239/

Seriously, perhaps you have a defective tool, as I find the JZ tool perfectly suited to pick up the smallest larvae (hours from hatching), and far more capable than the stainless tools sold at most places.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Lauri said:


> I graft (Dry) with a tiny paint brush and use the grid system. My resulting cells are about the same. But my starter, cell builder colonies are in top shape and well fed. Every year I get better at managing them. I don't second guessing the grafting procedure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Easy now, it's not a safe replacement for those insulin injections!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

JRG13 said:


> Easy now, it's not a safe replacement for those insulin injections!


I was thinking new perty lips.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Lauri said:


> I graft (Dry) with a tiny paint brush and use the grid system.


The grid system?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Those are big uniform cells, Lauri. Are you using the jenter or the nicot grid?
You think your big queen can fit to lay in my small cell comb?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I use the Mann Lake 'grid', not sure which type it represents



















Beepro, that giant cell probably won't produce anything, but it will have a lot of creamy white jelly in it I can collect.










I strive for a cup packed full of jelly during development, but when so much is left over after hatching, it is really critical to have that much? What a full cell of jelly tells me is my cell builder is in great shape.










Heres a smaller cell with no jelly left over, but apparently it had enough & was big enough to do the job. I wouldn't discard cells that have used up all the jelly, but I will be working on that cell builder before the next batch. More young(er) bees, good consumption of nutrition, excellent health, which includes pest control.



















I'm no expert, but this works for me.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

beepro said:


> You think your big queen can fit to lay in my small cell comb?


My small cells in foundationless areas (On the right in this photo) are all laid up well. Are they 4.9? I have no idea. 










I have seen a big queen just walk by a cell and drop an egg, then the workers grab it and place it in the cell. It could have been because she was exposed, or the cell was to small. Not sure why, but I did see it.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Also, when I say I graft dry, that means I don't scoop a ton of jelly with my larva. I get enough to keep them moist and cover them immediatly with a warm damp cloth. Then get them in the starter quickly so they don't dry out. My climate has fairly high humidity and mild temps. If I've prepped my starter colony well,_ fresh _jelly & nurturing are just moments away.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

kilocharlie said:


> Pardon the question, Adam, but do you use a combined starter/finisher or run them separate? Use a Cloake Board? .


I sent you a PM--so as to not hijack this thread. 
Adam


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Lauri,
I thought you mostly grafted, what made you move to the grid system?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

> I strive for a cup packed full of jelly during development, but when so much is left over after hatching, it is really critical to have that much? What a full cell of jelly tells me is my cell builder is in great shape.


Laurie....if I had a cell that looked like that (very long with way too much feed), I would assume it had fallen off the food before capping, and the bees had floated out the food with more food and lengthened the cell to reach her new dislodged position.

If I saw a bar full like that (I never have), I would think overfeeding.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Laurie...when you get cells that long and full of jelly, do many cells in the batch look like that?

You are feeding your cell builders more than I do, but if I saw some cells that were that long with that much jelly, I would think that they had been disturbed/uncomfortable and the larvae moved/wiggled off the food....the food extended and cell lengthened to accomodate her new, lower position.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We occasionally see long cells similar to Lauri's picture. It's usually because the larvae has detached from the rj and the bees continue to lengthen the cell in an attempt to contain it. Never seen one yet that contains a healthy larvae.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

jim lyon said:


> Never seen one yet that contains a healthy larvae.


Yeah, me too. The first time I saw one of those I thought I would find Godzilla emerging, but nothing.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I am not an expert either. I'm still a learning student.
My thinking is that the larva that ate the most Rj while
in development will turn out to be great queen. I will keep the ones that eat the most. Or the cup that is
empty all the way to the bottom. The left behind Rj the larva did not eat much of it and turn into a pupae that is hard
to say because who knows. So how much does she eat before she stop, is still a mystery to me. Does the left behind Rj after the hatch will indicate a great queen later on? I'm not sure either. Can someone give the answers here?


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## VickyLynn (Jun 20, 2011)

I read somewhere (can't remember where - I read so much) that if no RJ is available to prime the cell, that one could use a drop of diluted yogurt. Has anyone tried that?
It's purpose, as someone has pointed out, was to help release the larva from the grafting tool so it wouldn't be harmed or turned over.


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