# Swarm or bait trap help for newbie



## Ctothea (Nov 10, 2014)

I have two questions. I am going to build my first bait trap. After reading a lot of people's post I am going to use an 8 frame deep. I also live in Houston Texas. I'm going to use the lemongrass oil and some type of swarm lure. I am going to put deep frames inside(wood with dipped plastic). Also I've only been a beekeeper since April 2014.
Here's my first question I read a lot of people are using drawn out comb in their bait trap and beekeepers around here told me drawn frames will just attract wax moths. Should I use one, two,... Or not any drawn out frames.
Second question Can some people send me some photos of what's really work for them for their bait traps? If you have any unique ideas which have really worked write or send those photos also.
Thank you 
Cody


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Drawn comb is like gold to beekeepers. One drawn comb alone will attract swarms IF there is a hive in the area. Your set up will work.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Go easy on the LGO and lure. Too much is not better. Some black comb and LGO is all you need. I filled out traps with Ritecell frames last year and caught less than traps full of comb. But at the end of the season I combined all Ritecell into a box that had already caught a swarm and I caught a nice one on the all Ritecell with no lure at all.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"Should I use one, two,... Or not any drawn out frames."

We have been pleased with the results of using one frame of drawn comb and the rest, foundationless. We have a similar climate to yours and have not had a problem with wax moths in the drawn comb in swarm traps. To me, swarm traps are one of the most enjoyable parts of beekeeping. Cheers,


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

The pink box is an old 8 frame deep a commercial beekeeper gave me when I first started. Up to 17 swarms in just this one box. I was going to paint it but I decided to just leave it alone after it proved itself. It had been used for years before I got it and had that lived in smell. That with old brood comb is your best bet with just a touch of lemongrass oil rubbed around the entrance. 

I would talk to other beekeepers and see if you can buy a used box with old comb in it. You'll find that most commercial guys will swap a new box for an old one. Your chances of catching a swarm with a new box and frames with just foundation without drawn comb are greatly diminished compared to old equipment.


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## AL from Georgia (Jul 14, 2014)

I don't have much experience, I only wanted to mention something someone else already pointed out. You may want to use foundationless frames in your traps along with an old comb and maybe one foundation. This will cost a little less and free up your foundations for other uses. The trap will appear to have more space available to scout bees. Also, the bees should draw out the foundationless frames just fine if they want more comb. I researched this a bit as I have six, eight frame traps this year and need to cut costs. Hope this helps a little and good luck to you.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I'm going to use the lemongrass oil and some type of swarm lure.

AND? Lemongrass oil IS swarm lure. If you are going to only use one thing, that's what I would use. Other things that help are QMP (either pseudo queen or queen juice) and old black brood comb. The blacker the better... but four drops or less of lemongrass oil is the ticket.


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## hossbee (Jun 5, 2014)

Ctothea, 
I am located about 55 miles south of Houston, I am a newbie (started last summer). I caught six swarms using traps made out of old plywood (see attachment) and four to six drops of lemongrass oil without any honeycomb. To my surprise swarms moved into the traps within a week, I have four top bar hives, two of the swarms I caught absconded. In my traps I used 20" long bars that I "borrowed" from my hives, this made the colony transfer from trap to hive simpler. Hope this helps.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Scott,
One would think that a fellow competent to develop a good swarm lure would have a little wisdom related to the topic of the original post to share.

Surely you have time to share such experience and not just plug your product?


Ctothea, 

All you need is chunk old black comb so that its smell is in the swarm trap.

Speaking of smells, I noticed I didn't catch any bees in a trap I hung after eating a processed meat sandwich last year.

I don't think the smell of spam grease was attractive to the bees, so as for me, I'll avoid repeating that particular mistake in the future.


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## kingd (Oct 31, 2013)

Sorry to jump in but what position to you put the old comb? Off to the side or right in the middle.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Sorry to jump in but what position to you put the old comb?

It just doesn't matter.


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

If you don't have enough comb for all your traps, would it work to cut half out of one frame and use it in another?


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Riverderwent said:


> "Should I use one, two,... Or not any drawn out frames."
> 
> We have been pleased with the results of using one frame of drawn comb and the rest, foundationless. We have a similar climate to yours and have not had a problem with wax moths in the drawn comb in swarm traps. To me, swarm traps are one of the most enjoyable parts of beekeeping. Cheers,


I use the same set-up; In one of my traps wax moths did mess things up. I also use lemongrass oil. I take an old piece of sock and cinch an 8-inch tie wrap onto it. After putting 2 drops of LMO on it I stuff the sock into the trap, leaving the tie wrap hanging out to make it easier to retrive. About every 10-14 days I put another 2 drops of LMO.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

ctotha
I beg forgiveness if I use your thread to ask a question that I hope is on topic but selfish. I had a bee keeper stop by today who says he will give me a bit of old comb for my traps. He was concerned that bigger swarms might pass by due to the size of my intended traps being too small. Does the forum believe that 10 frame mediums are too small to be used as swarm traps?

If this post is out of line please tell me and I will start a new topic.
Thank you 
gww


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

I'm a beginner, but I've caught one swarm with a ten frame medium. I made a special bottom for it with 1x3s for the sides and a round hole drilled on the front so I didn't have to drill the super. I call them deep bottoms. It ends up about the size of a ten frame deep. I use them for tops in the winter. They're just right for feeding sugar cakes. Also makes a great top entrance


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Ken
Yes, thank you for your responce. I am using normal bottoms with the entrance reduced a bit with a peice of wood that I will close the entrance with if I catch anything. He said stack them but that would take my six traps and make them three.
gww


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

I bet you'll catch more with six singles than three doubles, even though six doubles might be better. Probably someone with more experience will join this conversation.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

A small swarm will go into a large trap but a large swarm will not fit into small trap. I tried eight frame wine boxes for a few years but felt they were less successful than larger traps.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

odfrank said:


> A small swarm will go into a large trap but a large swarm will not fit into small trap


You have unbelievable insight Ollie.:applause:


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Charlie B said:


> You have unbelievable insight Ollie.:applause:


Charlie, if you ever get the insight that I have gotten in my 45 years of swarm catching, you might catch swarms like these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3zB61HDtXs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWujzDDUERM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWcI7nBpUHM

And then you can make brilliant videos like I do also.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Thanks for the insite, I will probly go with the mediums for now since it is time to start getting them out and try to come up with somemore lumber so I can do better at some point. I don't need to do too good as I am equipment starved and intend to stay that way untill I have had bees and see what it intails.
Thanks for allowing the thread steal and I will try to be quiet now.
gww


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Another question that probably should be obvious ... I will leave a trap in the bee yard, of course, in full sun like my hives, but would a trap hive be more successful in the shade, like, in the woods, or in full sun?
and how high off the ground? Honey bee convenient, or beekeeper convenient?
begging places to put my "honey bee swarm collection boxes" now, but have no experience at this.
thanks.


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## Ctothea (Nov 10, 2014)

gww said:


> ctotha
> I beg forgiveness if I use your thread to ask a question that I hope is on topic but selfish. I had a bee keeper stop by today who says he will give me a bit of old comb for my traps. He was concerned that bigger swarms might pass by due to the size of my intended traps being too small. Does the forum believe that 10 frame mediums are too small to be used as swarm traps?
> 
> No problem I'm learning from these questions you're posting.
> Thanks


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Ctotha
Thank you very much.
gww


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

tech.35058 said:


> Another question that probably should be obvious ... I will leave a trap in the bee yard, of course, in full sun like my hives, but would a trap hive be more successful in the shade, like, in the woods, or in full sun?
> and how high off the ground? Honey bee convenient, or beekeeper convenient?
> begging places to put my "honey bee swarm collection boxes" now, but have no experience at this.
> thanks.


Bees don't really care if it's in the sun or shade, just so long as it is properly vented.

I've had bees find swarm traps and move in when the traps were 8' off the ground to a few inches off the ground in old equipment.


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## Ctothea (Nov 10, 2014)

Mr.Beeman said:


> Bees don't really care if it's in the sun or shade, just so long as it is properly vented.


How would I know if it was properly vented? The only hole I have going into my hive is the 1 1/4 inch doorway. I'm thinking after your post this is not enough.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

Interesting thread!

I've also wondered about what's necessary to to properly vent a trap. Do I need a top vent so air can be circulated easier?

I made a couple of stacked medium nuc boxes that I'm going to try as swarm traps this year.


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

The traps I've had near the ground on stacked concrete blocks all ended up with lots of ants, some roaches. I had two near barns but about 6' up and got wasps nests. Does anyone have ways to prevent these pest problems? 

Maybe I should start a new thread? Mr Beeman's post about equipment on the ground made me think of it.

I wondered about the venting question too.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Kenww said:


> The traps I've had near the ground on stacked concrete blocks all ended up with lots of ants, some roaches. I had two near barns but about 6' up and got wasps nests. Does anyone have ways to prevent these pest problems?


Put no honey, sugar or dead brood in the bait hives.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

It's all about improving your odds. Nothing is fool proof, but the bees generally know what they are looking for. If you can give them a home that fits their criteria as closely as possible, they'll choose your trap. If they find something more typical, they'll go with the competitor's site.

For a good understanding of what they like, read Dr. Seeley's book. 

Some of the things they are looking for, in my order of importance:
- a nest previously occupied by bees
- meaning, smells of wax, propolis, queen substance
- 40 liters in volume
- not damp or drafty
- has some drawn comb in it
- entrance size of 5-10 square cm (I think, don't remember this one)
- 10 feet off the ground
- entrance facing south or south east
- entrance near the bottom
- partial shade

That's just a few of the important ones, in my opinion. Doesn't mean you have to follow all of them. If you get 8 out of 9, but want to put the bait hive 2 feet off the ground, you very well could catch a swarm. But it depends on other available cavities in the area. If the bees find another cavity that is 30 liters in size, but meets every other criteria, then it comes down to a vote. 

As far as the comb goes, I usually only use dark comb frames. The old, dark frames rarely get destroyed by wax moths. If you don't have any, you can use newer frames, but I'd suggest spraying it with BT. If you don't have any drawn frames, you can use foundation. 

One frame positioned somewhere in the box is usually fine. I shoot for the center, but it doesn't always work like that. 

I usually don't put more frames than that in there (i.e. no extra frames of foundation or foundationless frames). I don't see it increasing or decreasing the chances of catching a swarm, and the bees are often not too keen on following my foundationless guides when provided an entire open cavity to use (or half, or whatever). They usually only build straight combs if placed between two drawn combs, which doesn't happen in a bait hive.

At least, that's my take on it. I don't have as much experience as odfrank or Charlie though.


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

Just had LGO or an artificial lure were in them. I was thinking of a wire mesh.i wonder if a wasp would go through mesh big enough for a queen to go through? Or maybe mesh would prevent swarms from being interested ?

I don't have any ideas on th ants.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

Specialkayme said:


> As far as the comb goes, I usually only use dark comb frames. The old, dark frames rarely get destroyed by wax moths. If you don't have any, you can use newer frames, *but I'd suggest spraying it with BT.* If you don't have any drawn frames, you can use foundation.


Brain lock here.............what is the BT you're referring to?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>what is the BT you're referring to?
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeswaxmoths.htm#Bt


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> >what is the BT you're referring to?
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beeswaxmoths.htm#Bt


MB got it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> For a good understanding of what they like, read Dr. Seeley's book. 

This is not a complete book, but rather a Cornell Cooperative Extension pamphlet by Dr. Seeley, _Bait Hives for Honeybees_:
http://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/1813/2653/2/Bait Hives for Honey Bees.pdf


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## Ctothea (Nov 10, 2014)

I was wondering if somebody could tell me what A properly vented bait hive is. I am using an eight frame deep with 4 inches extra on the bottom.


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## Packrat3wires (Nov 5, 2014)

I have had good luck with old hive bodies. I use a regular top and cut bottom boards out of plywood. I screw the plywood to the bottom of the hive body. It fits flush to the hive. I then use a 1 1/8 spade drill bit and make a hole in the front of the hive body about an inch from the bottom. I then screw a solid electrical plate (from Lowes for $1) into the hive body near the drilled hole so I can rotate it over the hole to close the entrance. This way when I get a swarm I just slide the cover over the hole to trap the bees. I use 2-3 drops of Lemon Grass oil I got from the local health store ($5) and 1 pheromone bee lure. I use old frames, some with plasticell that I cut into 4" strips and some frames without anything. I had a 70% success rate with these traps last year by placing them on structures 6-8 feet high. It is a great use for old worn out hive bodies and frames. I will try to post a photo of one of them.


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## Ctothea (Nov 10, 2014)

I would like to see a photo.
Thanks


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## newbury (Jul 19, 2014)

odfrank said:


> <snip> I tried eight frame wine boxes for a few years but felt they were less successful than larger traps.


Did you have to go to the trouble of emptying all the wine boxes?

"Sorry Hon, I need to make another swarm trap, we need to drink another case of Burgundy"


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