# Once more re: hive box reversing



## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Without reversing the queen will want to work up. If there is nowhere to go, eventually she would move down. We want her to have lots of room (from her point of view it needs to be above her) to lay. You can ignore this. If you want to manage for production of bees and honey, it's a trick. Clinton Bemrose of this list will talk about this. Clinton, are you reading this?

Dickm


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

In the spring, most of the bottom box is empty, and will remain empty for most of the year, unless moved to the top. Once the queen knows she has open cells above her, she will move into the top box to use the empty cells. I hadn't heard of doing it a second time, but it might make sense to do it again just before placeing on honey supers, as without a queen excluder, she will continue to move up into the honey supers. There is nothing more frustarating than going to remove honey supers, only to find them full of brood. Makes a good arguement for excluders and a top entrance.


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## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

Hey longarm,

As you probably know, there are many ways to practice swarm prevention, and reversing is just one of them. One of the biggest advocates for reversing that I've seen is Grouchy George. If you haven't browsed over his pink pages yet, I'd highly recommend it. 

http://pxbacher.home.comcast.net/PinkPages/index.html


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

> How did bees manage before we were there to turn there nests upside down repeatedly? <

They would run out of brood space, back fill with nectar, and swarm. That's what they are programmed to do with out the beekeeper. 

Our objective is to stop them from swarming and have a heavy population of bees to maximize the spring nectar flow.

If you read some of George Imirie's articles he recommends reversing 3 or 4 times if necessary in the spring. As peggjam explained, this keeps the queen moving up to empty cells and retards the swarming impulse.

As to when, or how much... watch them closely as they build up in early spring and when the top box begins to fill up with brood, reverse. If their build up is very fast you may need to do this every 2-3 weeks in the spring. If they fill both boxes with brood then you may need to start inserting empty frames to keep the swarming impulse in check.


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## longarm (Apr 21, 2006)

veeeeeery interesting..
so if the top box is relatively empty, as in they have eaten their stores, reversal would not be necessary?
and if the top box still has a cap of honey should it still be reversed to the bottom? 
are we talking about february? or?

p.s. thanks wade - lot of reading there. will start tonight.

[ December 14, 2006, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: longarm ]


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

> so if the top box is relatively empty, as in they have eaten their stores, reversal would not be necessary? < 

That's correct. If they are in the lower box they should eventually move up into the empty box above. Wait for them to move up before reversing.

> and if the top box still has a cap of honey should it still be reversed to the bottom? <

If it is just a band of honey across the top portion of the frames and the rest is filled with brood, then I would reverse.

> are we talking about february? or? <

Every region runs on a different time table. Find out when the swarm season typically starts in your area and plan on beginning to start reversing at least a month ahead of the start of your swarm season.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Make sure that at least 75 to 80% of the brood is in one box before splitting the boxes. If you split the brood area in half and separate it the bees might not be able to cover it and you will lose a lot of brood.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#stopswitching


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I believe that reversing is a good spring management tool, it allows big hives to get even bigger before thinking about swarming plus forcing the hives to clean up the bottom part of your bottom box which can often get neglected by all but the biggest hives. I wouldn't recommend doing it to a small hive, if there is a largely empty box down below in the early spring I would just pull it out for a few weeks then once it has begun to fill with bees put that box back on top. I have found in our operation that reversing is highly effective in the early spring when we reverse our big hives and put a couple of pounds of pollen patties between the newly reversed boxes then give them a feed at the same time. It is a good way to really encourage early brood production.


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## ekrouse (Aug 26, 2004)

Read Walt Wright's manual on "Nectar Management". He's the expert on how and when to reverse boxes and checkerboard frames to eliminate swarming and maximize honey production.

-Eric


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Checkerboarding and hive body reversal are not the samething. Walt's metheod will work nicely for those in the south, but have little to no use for northern beekeeps. We are stuck with just doing hive body reversals.


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## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

<Walt's metheod will work nicely for those in the south, but have little to no use for northern beekeeps.>

Can you expand on that? 

I'm going all out next year with this with one hive to learn first-hand how it works here or not, so will have my own opinion about it. I'm much closer to North to you than I am to Tennessee so am interested in your take.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Checkerboarding takes place in the supers above the broodnest very early in the year, Jan/Feb. It is only consedered checkerboarding if you are working in the supers, not the broodnest. I know very few beekeeps that have any supers on that early in the year in areas where there is any real winter. Hence it doesn't apply to northern beekeeps.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Here is one theard dealing with checkerboarding, there are many more that will define the process for you:


http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003470#000003


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## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

I just looked on a map, and it might be deceiving. But it looks like Oregon and NY are right in line in latitude. About everybody I know with bees here has an extra box of honey on top going into Winter which I'll call a super, and opens it up no later than February for a peak. In fact if you look at some of longarm's posts you'll see that some folks will work their bees all but a few weeks of the year to some degree. Anyway, here, it seems like the february inspection for stores would be the time to do the first and most important "nectar management." If the bees are in the super already which I think you're eluding too, then Walt calls for adding empty drawn comb or reversing, and making sure another box is added when they start putting nectar in the top box. I don't see the conflict peggjam. Have you had problems doing it that way?


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## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

I'm starting to see why the name was changed to nectar management. Peggjam you're splitting hairs and apparently attempting to discredit Walt's work in the process. I give, you're correct and excuse me for living- scratch the checkerboarding term. But I'll give you something to look at. Something tells me you've already digested it though. http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/ABJ%20Copies/BC%20May%202006.pdf 

Take a look at the first picture of the 3 of the second page of the article(pg 55). Yes it looks a lot like reversing and it is mostly, but reversing doesn't call for another box of empty drawn comb. And it doesn't specify that you add another box of empty drawn comb on top of that box when the bees start to work it. Yes, nectar management, scratch that antiquated checkerboarding term. Also reversing calls for more reversing or opening the brood area, or splitting, or something else later, something else other than adding another box of empty drawn frames for brood and/or honey not just honey, when the bees start working the last one. Should I say it again for you? OK I will,. add another box of empty drawn frames on top. It doesn't matter where the freaking frames come from, if it wows you to say its a reverse then its a reverse. Then add another box of empty drawn comb on top of that when they start working the last top box, etc, etc, yea on and on.

[ December 16, 2006, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: wade ]


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"Peggjam you're splitting hairs and apparently attempting to discredit Walt's work in the process."

You need to rethink your statement, bud. Nobody is discrediting Walt's work, and I have never made a statement that it wouldn't work. BUT, it will not work for northern beekeepers who don't have honey supers on in Jan/Feb, which I don't know of a single one who does, AND, that is what I have stated. You should do some more research before you come on here shooting your mouth off about what I have stated  .

Further more, you need to read about when this procudure is done, as you obvesouly don't have the foggest idea what your talking about  .

[ December 16, 2006, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: peggjam ]


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## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

That's a lot of jibberish in a few words there peggjam. Be advised that believe it or not, you are not as clear with your written word as you think you are. Also, unfortunately and apologetically, my response is a carry-over from your posts with boris about drones. I agreed with you but man, you gotta work on not belittling folks, you did he, then you did me. I learn a lot from your posts but sometimes I just gotta cut it loose. It looks like you got hold of my post before I made the edit. My bad for well.. you know. Take a pill.


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## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

Not to pour salt in a wound, but please explain to me which part I need to rethink....BUD. 

<Walt's metheod will work nicely for those in the south, but have little to no use for northern beekeeps. We are stuck with just doing hive body reversals.>

<I have never made a statement that it wouldn't work.>


Apparently one of us needs to learn to read.

[ December 16, 2006, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: wade ]


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

peggjam 

Dont be upset by your misinterpretation  my fault; not yours. In the articles prepared for B. Culture, your circumstance was treated, but in the manuscript the descriptions are in reference to the wintering configuration recommended. For your brood in the top deep in late winter, CB is not applicable. If you check the URL that MB quoted, you will find that reversal and maintaining empty comb at the top are all you need to do  if done early enough. We will fix that in the next update.

What is new and wonderful in the manuscript are two observations on the swarm process:

1. The overhead honey reserve limits brood nest expansion, and reaching that limit starts swarm preps.
2. The nectar congestion of backfilling the upper part of the brood nest is the first action of swarm preps.

Neither of those observations was recognized in the existing literature prior to my studies.

The checkerboarding manipulation is just an easy way to break up the overhead barrier to continued brood nest expansion. Since you have brood to the top, that is not a problem for you. No CB required.

I have no doubt that what you have been doing would deter swarming. A major upheaval of the brood nest would stop them in their tracks. But it would need precision timing. To avoid brood chilling they would have to have the population built to swarm prep stage and not be developed to the swarm commit stage. Thats a two to three week window. 

And all colonies in a given location are not at the same stage of development at the same time. Just monitoring for the right conditions would be time consuming. 

If you just reverse and add comb you will not stop growth, and will likely gain more population and honey production. In your climate area, requirements for swarm prevention are simplified. Just monitor for continued population and brood nest growth through the swarm prep period. And dont let them fill the empty comb at the top. Add supers, as required, to prevent rebuilding a reserve with nectar. In this way you are applying the principles of NM without the CB manipulation.

Walt

P.S. I suspect the thread where you and MB had your flap is dead by now. The next time the subject comes up, feel free to relay the above, all or any part, to an active thread. And thanks for doing that.

To all with an interest in this thread:

So, it isnt dead yet.

Perhaps some background would help.

I went through a flirtation with double deeps for a few seasons, but didnt like the effects. In my area, on about a 50/50 basis, some colonies would use the bottom deep for pollen and some would fill the upper with honey on the main flow. The brood nest was either up or down in the other box. I decided to replace the upper deep with two shallows because the bees much prefer to rear brood in the larger expanse of deep frames. That worked  the brood is now reliably in the deep brood chamber.

Side note to MB: I can concur with your reasons for all-medium hives. In spite of only an inch in comb height the bees preference for brooding is not nearly as acute for mediums as it is for shallows. But I dont want to handle a full medium of honey, either. That inch is almost 25% more, but seems much more to this old man.

At that time, wintering in a deep brood chamber and two shallows (one might be a partial) of honey overhead it was time to consider those colonies that put pollen in the lower deep of the double deep configuration. They should have the opportunity to store pollen below the brood nest if that is a factor in their natural survival strategy. As a compromise with the bees for the undesirable quarters we provide (they hate the break in functional comb between boxes) we moved to the pollen box maneuver. When they expand the brood nest through the first shallow overhead it is moved to the bottom board. It will be used for CB or brood nest expansion, depending on the timing and strength of the colony. It is not recommended to use this comb in supers because it was on the colony (perhaps) when mite control chemicals were applied. I color code all boxes on hives when chemicals are applied with a dash of off-colored paint. That way chemicals do not get into marketable honey.

The pollen box maneuver can be construed as a type of reversal. But it is the only reversal used in the present system. With brood reliably in the deep, other manipulations revolve about the basic overwintered brood nest. Not that when wintering in the double deep an empty on the bottom was reversed in late winter to put that box back into service for its intended purpose.

When northern beekeepers learn that the bees did not eat their way into the upper box in early winter, some of this flap will go away. The cluster consumes very little honey in early winter. Most of the bees are in a state of semi-suspended animation. Like other insects in hibernation, they require little food intake in that state. Honey is used as fuel in the cluster to provide heat, but if the band of insulating bees is adequate, very little honey is needed.

Heres what happens in Yankeeland: In October, when northern frost/freeze weather knocks out field forage, the colony stills has substantial brood. As the brood emerges, there is no nectar to fill the brood nest. (In my area the colony normally does). The colony knows better than to try to winter on empty comb. They need the fuel. They relocate the cluster up into the upper deep on solid capped honey. The bottom deep is abandoned in early winter. This occurs some time after the beeks last hive opening, on a mild day, and gives the impression that they ate their way into the upper deep. Feeding is iffy in mostly full time clustering weather  they need cluster-breaking weather to move the feed. When northern beeks learn to feed simultaneously with brood nest closeout, the bees will likely start winter brood in the lower box. Once brood is started they are locked in place and upward movement is limited to expansion.

I concede that the above is an extrapolation of what I see in Tennessee and may not be the whole story. Never having kept bees further north, Im hanging out somewhat. But even raising the questions should push back the frontiers a little.

You can find more detail I some earlier Bee Culture articles. The editor takes great liberties with my article titles. Hes certain he knows what will get the attention of subscribers.

Walt


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## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

peggjam,

I regret that it must sometimes come to verbal blows to get to the bottom of things. But..whatever it takes. Thank you very much for digging up that note from Walt. You went the extra mile.

Taking your writings on this thread alone, well I see where you're coming from now, but there was no way for me to get there from your brief statements prior to the note.

When did you get the note from Walt? I feel that he covered that anamoly rather well in his May 2006 article in Bee Culture, the one I referenced above. The bottom line is not so much the "how to", but the "why" of all this. Do you really think I'm clueless? Come on ask me anything, anything at all, come on.. I dare ya.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006134

Follow the link above, and read the whole thread, it is enlightening. Walt's letter is on page 2.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Since this all seems to revolve around Walt's words, I believe I will print this out for him to see if he wants to weigh in. Be patient, he won't get to read this until tomorrow some time.


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## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

OK Peggjam, I read the thread. A couple of observations, and I'm sure you know these things- 

1. You're HARD HEADED!

2. You're a great beekeeper and know what you're doing.

3. Its cool that you spend time on this site and keep us all on the straight and narrow.

Still though, Walt caved. I think he covered your scenario in his paper.

Is it true that we can substitute foundation for drawn comb? If so, this is HUGE! I was afraid to try that because Walt explicitly stated that one should stick exactly to his teachings. If you're correct, then 1st-year keepers can reap the same benefits as those with drawn comb.

If you really want to do checkerboarding and are wrapped up around the terms reversing, nectar management, or checkerboarding- then don't be so greedy. Leave an extra medium box of capped honey next year. Then when late Feb rolls around, checkerboard it by cracky.

However you look at it, Walt's perception of preswarming behavior, and giving free reign to brood expansion, is revolutionary.

[ December 16, 2006, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: wade ]


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Come on Wade... give it a break. Let's wait and hear what "Walt" has to say about "his" writings. You're going round and round... let's move on.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I don't know about all that other stuff, but you can use foundation in the broodnest, but not in the supers. I would not feed in foundation until the weather has stablized enough that the bees can cover all the brood, or you will lose some brood to being chilled.

"If you really want to do checkerboarding and are wrapped up around the terms reversing, nectar management, or checkerboarding- then don't be so greedy. Lewavbe an extra medium box of capped honey next yuear. Then when late Feb rolls around, checkerboard it by cracky."

I could do that, but the problem becomes a matter of too much space for the bees to handle. I am begining to think that 2 deeps are too much room for the bees to handle, and that less space might be better for them to winter in. But I have ongoing experiments dealing with this, and don't want to pass out bad advice, so that will have to wait for another time.


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## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

<Come on Wade... give it a break. Let's wait and hear what "Walt" has to say about "his" writings. You're going round and round... let's move on. >

I wondered how long it'd be until somebody said something like that.







Mike? I'd like nothing better. And I just noticed the post from Walt's son-in-law----yeah baby!!!! I'll be monitoring this thread.

longarm, sorry for the sorta highjack--kinda.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

This issue predates Walt.
In fact, I'd hazard a guess that the first
argument started just after Langstroth announced
the whole "movable comb" concept.

Here's a little hint - the bees just don't
care about the issue, as they are just bugs.

I think that the basic issue here is one of a 
specific lack of understanding how little bees
care about "up" versus "down" in the broodnest
once they are able to move freely about the
broodnest.

Think about a colony in the wild. Where does the
new comb get built? At the _bottom_ edges
of the existing combs. This implies that natural
colony expansion is never "up", but tends to be
"down" as a general direction when "in the wild".
How did beekeepers get the idea that expansion 
tends to be "up", when expansion is simply 
following the addition of new comb, regardless 
of relative direction?

Next, do the math. Figure out how many cells 
are in a box of the size you use. Subtract some
reasonable number (1/4 to 1/3) of cells for the
short-term pollen and nectar processing required
to feed the brood. Subtract the outside sides
of the outermost frames, as the queen just never
will lay there, will she? OK, so how many cells 
do you have in a box? And, assuming something
from 1,000 to 1,500 eggs per day (less under 
less optimal conditons), how many days before 
the box will become "full" of eggs, open brood, 
or sealed brood, forcing the attendants to lead 
the queen elsewhere?

Are things any clearer now?


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

But Jim, in the wild bees always start their combs at the highest point, that would only leave down as the direction of expansion.....wouldn't it?


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## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

uuuhh... my head feels numb now.  


Peggjam,

Some beekeepers stick to singles, year-round. Even in Canada. http://orsba.proboards27.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1159736761 
Read on down to the 5th entry. That Canadian is a serious commercial keeper.

Jim's conflagerations make it clear to me- the bees do what they'll do. We can impose what we want, but its always within whatever bounds they set for us.

[ December 16, 2006, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: wade ]


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

> I think that the basic issue here is one of a 
specific lack of understanding how little bees
care about "up" versus "down" in the broodnest
once they are able to move freely about the
broodnest. < 

Please enlighten us... we want to understand. Is there test data available which proves how little bees, in Langstroth hives, prefer to move "down" rather than "up" if they are positioned in the "center" of the boxes?

[ December 17, 2006, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: Mike Gillmore ]


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## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

I'll wait for Jim's response, but in the meantime will butt in, as this thread has captured my being for the time-being.

Bees will fill whatever space they occupy with comb. Once that is accomplished, they do whatever wows them, without regard to anything else. When said comb is full, they swarm.

[ December 16, 2006, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: wade ]


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

> When said comb is full, they swarm. <

Exactly.

And this whole discussion is centered around "stopping" that from happening. Bees in the wild are programmed to swarm, so we cannot compare apples with oranges. We are not tending hives in hollow trees, but in Langstroth boxes. So we should be looking at the bees tendencies in boxes, and not what they do in the "wild".


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> bees always start their combs at the highest 
> point, that would only leave down as the 
> direction of expansion

Exactly, and they are "happy" with that, just
as "happy" when the beekeeper adds boxes to
the top of an existing configuration, giving
them new comb (or foundation) above the current
broodnest. So, _*it just doesn't matter*_.

Walt Wright and I have very different approaches
to the age-old problem of building up a colony
for the flows and avoiding swarming. Walt 
shuffles combs like a Las Vegas dealer, and
I don't. I guess the closest "in print" 
version of what I do can be found in the collected
works of Richard Taylor, but I don't even follow
his gameplan to the letter. I pump colonies up,
and both "compress" them (by removing a box of
combs without brood) and cage the queen.

I guess I should write an article on this
somewhat esoteric approach, as caging the queen
for short periods in order to maximize one's
nectar gathered may have become a "forgotten
art".

But my point is simple. Any statement made about
broodnest expansion that includes the terms 
"up" or "down" is an oversimplified description,
one that misleads the beekeeper, and prompts
efforts that will not result in any more than
a decrease in the statistical likelihood of
swarming. When you do something radical, like
cage the queen, you are focusing the attention
of the bulk of the colony on a single mission,
and giving yourself a very high level of assurance
that you won't have a swarm in even the most
compressed configuration.

> Is there test data available which proves how
> little bees, in Langstroth hives, prefer to 
> move "down" rather than "up" if they are 
> positioned in the "center" of the boxes?

You could provision new comb either "above"
OR "below" the existing broodnest, and get
a decent basis for realizing that _it just
doesn't matter_ in any spring you choose,
but even if you saw some sort of advantage
to putting new comb under the broodnest,
would you bother to follow through, and 
always add new comb under the broodnest?
Of course not! The advantages would have to
be massive to justify the additional time,
effort, the additional banging around of, and 
subsequent risk to queen loss, etc etc. 

So, what's the take-away message here?
Perhaps it is that complex and labor-intensive
"management" approaches will always be lurking
around the edges of the beekeeping world, but
most of them don't scale very well above a few
colonies, proving that one can be a much better
beekeeper to two hives than one can be to 200.
But in a practical sense, one "prevents swarming"
by either making splits ("making swarms"), or by
stopping the queen from laying the eggs that can
only become bees that will consume resources 
(and house bee time/attention) during the flows,
and will mature to become foragers during dearths. 

So, feed early, feed often, and then harvest
early, harvest often, or split 'em 4 ways. 
The use of $3 queen cages just before and
during flows may be "too scary" for many 
beekeepers, but once one has a handle on the 
blooms in one's area, they can make a significant
difference in net yield.

Shuffling boxes around or shuffling combs around?
You are just re-arranging the deck chairs on the
Titanic. You are not changing the course of
the colony with anything approaching certainty,
no matter how mystical the process.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

> but even if you saw some sort of advantage
to putting new comb under the broodnest,
would you bother to follow through, and 
always add new comb under the broodnest?
Of course not! < 

Sure I would! If the advantage was proven.

> The advantages would have to
be massive to justify the additional time,
effort, the additional banging around of, and 
subsequent risk to queen loss, etc etc. < 

Not massive, just measurable. The same time, effort, and risk to the queen already exists if one is reversing and later opening up the brood nest. 

I appreciate your explaination on your thought process and the goals in your method. It seems that you are targeting a compressed, no-growth spring management style and that makes sense now. But I think that for others, including myself, the goal is not just a good honey crop but creating a situation where splits and growth can also be accomplished. By caging the queen in the spring you have suppressed the swarm impulse, but have also eliminated the extra bees needed later for splitting.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have a problem with people using terms such as "shooting your mouth off" or "that's a lot of jibberish".

I'm glad you seem to have worked out these differences, but there is no need to characterize what someone else has said in such negative ways. Just say why you disagree or what part of what they said you don't understand.

There is no need for hostility.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As for the bees working up or down, I agree with Jim. I have put packages in several boxes of foundationless frames on a couple of occasions and I've put them in observation hives where there are four empty frames. The bees go straight to the top and and build their way down everytime. It's also what they obviously do in a tree, if you think about it.

However, the point here is what can you do to prevent swarming and get large crops.

In my experience swapping boxes WILL prevent swarming, but it also upsets the whole structure of the brood nest if it splits the brood and this does not encourage large crops of honey.

In my experience proper timing of confining the queen and doing cut down splits can greatly increase crops. But usually these things are done too late to prevent some of the swarms. Timing, of course, is essential. No queen two weeks before the flow won't impact the crop much. Earlier than that will impact it a lot. Later than that works ok, but not too much later. You need to end up with less open brood at the onset of the main flow.

In my experience something needs to be done earlier to keep the brood nest open and distract the bees from reproductive swarm preparations. I haven't really done checkerboarding yet. As someone mentioned about Northern beekeeping, I've found the bees at the top with no honey cap so I'm not sure what to checkerboard. If I find a honey cap, I'm game to try it. Maybe I'm missing something as to how to implement it here. So far I'm still trying to keep the brood nest open which also encourages brood nest expansion. Timing, of course, is everything when it comes to honey crops. This expansion needs to happen about a month or more before the main flow.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> It seems that you are targeting a compressed, 
> no-growth spring management style 

Heck no!

I am out feeding when snow is still on the ground,
and the only "problem" with this approach is 
getting queens early enough for making the 
splits that can result. But with early crops
(and morso with comb honey) one makes a choice
between "making splits" and "supering", so I
tend to leave the splits for when queens are
cheaper, and simply pump up the colonies for
making a crop. If the weather cooperates,
the first nectar to come in can be from maple,
and a crop of maple honey is so early, one's
fellow beekeepers think that you are a liar
when you speak of "pulling supers" so early.

When I am met with disbelief, the good news is
that I tend to get some help in pulling supers,
as there is no better way to show someone than
to hand them a hive tool, and say, "Sure - come
along and see."


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

One major tendency of bees that has not been mentioned so far is that they have a very definite preference to store honey above the brood. If space is available beneath the brood and that is the only space available, they will move the broodnest down so it will be beneath the honey which is stored above.

As for building comb, they will build just about any position where space is available in the hive. I've seen expansion to the side of the broodnest, above the broodnest, and beneath the broodnest.

I'm partial to maple honey. Its good stuff! I get a crop about every third year. Did you know that a lot of the maple honey is from sap leaking from holes made by sapsuckers?

Fusion


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

"shooting your mouth off" or "that's a lot of jibberish".

I agree with Michael on this one! It shows a genuine lack of respect for other posters and adds nothing to the discussion.

Wade, the fact you are on a simlar lattitude has little to do with climate simlarity due to the influence of your climate by the Pacific Ocean. The area Peggjam and I are in commonly see winters where weather drops below 5F for a few weeks every winter and we've seen temps of -30. Spacing brood frames in the spring as in checkerboarding would result in huge brood losses due to the size of the clusters and brood needing coverage, pretty much up through May. 

Although I agree with Jim that bees move down and don't care, logic would dictate that comb above the cluster, due to heat from the cluster, would be easier to occupy and keep warm so more adapable to spring expansion.

We run singles except for drawing new comb on south wintered hives in early spring. We put the new foundation above the winter brood nest.

[ December 17, 2006, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Well, this has been an interesting thread... very emotional and packed with information. 

It appears that there may be a huge gulf between two differing, yet successful, approaches to spring management. 

I'm waiting to hear back from Walt on this one.


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## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

<Spacing brood frames in the spring as in checkerboarding would result in huge brood losses due to the size of the clusters and brood needing coverage, pretty much up through May.>

I wouldn't be able to do that here either Joel, but we're supposed to be working above the brood nest on this, not in it.

You're correct about the climate, its quite a bit more mild here than you described.


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

Hello everyone,

I've worked with Walt and nectar management for over three years now. A few points need to be made:



> I know very few beekeeps that have any supers on that early in the year in areas where there is any real winter. Hence it doesn't apply to northern beekeeps.


It is true that you can't checkerboard a super of honey if it isn't there. This doesn't prove that checkerboarding, or nectar management, "doesn't apply to northern beekeeps." You can't checkerboard in the South, either, if there is no honey above the broodnest. To use nectar management, the beekeeper must manage colonies in such a manner as to have overhead honey when the buildup begins. Planning for this begins the year before, and is an important part of nectar management. If the beekeeper elects not to do so, that is a decision not to do so. It doesn't prove that it wouldn't work if one tried it.



> But in a practical sense, one "prevents swarming" by either making splits ("making swarms"), or by stopping the queen from laying the eggs that can only become bees that will consume resources (and house bee time/attention) during the flows, and will mature to become foragers during dearths.


I am not sure that anything the beekeeper does short of killing the colony is guaranteed to "prevent" swarming. But I think there is at least one more method for swarm "prevention" that was not mentioned in this list of techniques, and that is Walt Wright's nectar management techniques.



> Shuffling boxes around or shuffling combs around? You are just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. You are not changing the course of the colony with anything approaching certainty, no matter how mystical the process.


My experience with nectar management is that it is more than just shuffling boxes, that it does reliably change the course of the colony, that it is not mystical in any way, and that it does produce very large populations that produce significant honey crops. If, in the process of swarm prevention, one would like to make increase, then making splits might be a better choice than nectar management. If harvesting several supers of maple honey is your goal, Jim's techniques may work the best. I think if a large honey crop that requires very little labor on the part of the beekeeper is your goal, then checkerboarding may be your best bet. 

It may not be as productive as Jim's methods, which sound very interesting. I'd actually like to read a little more about that, Jim, as maple honey sounds pretty cool! I've not been able to pull maple honey supers before! But I do think that nectar management gets more maple nectar into the supers than all the other methods that I have tried myself.

Nectar management, or checkerboarding, is not a complex and labor-intensive "management" approach. While the use of a queen cage is not "too scary" for me, It is a little more time consuming (for me) than swapping 4 or 5 frames between two supers, and then adding empty comb above that. I may be sacrificing those supers of maple honey by saving the time, but that may change after I try Jim's methods!

Walt mentioned in his note to Peggjam that there were two things that were new and wonderful in the manuscript on nectar management. One is his observation that the overhead honey reserve limits brood nest expansion, and reaching that limit starts swarm preps. The second is that the first step in these swarm preps is what is very often referred to as "nectar congestion of the brood nest or what Walt calls backfilling. The difference between what has been perceived as congestion and what Walt calls backfilling may seem subtle, but it is not. Understanding this difference is paramount to understanding nectar management, specifically, and the swarming process in general. These two observations are what first captured my interest in his methods, because they make it clear that there is no "cause" for swarming, other than the bees intent to do so.

I have found nothing (so far) in the available literature that describes the swarming process as well as Walt does. I believe that much of the information available today on swarming is incorrect, and here is why I think so: it seems that the premise is always that there must be a cause for swarming, and that we just need to isolate the cause to "prevent" swarming. If you read and believe the literature on swarming, you would have to believe that "nectar congestion" (what Walt would call backfilling) happens accidentally, and that the bees then say "ooops! we got 'er too full! I suppose we had better swarm!" 

The "cause" for swarming is that the bees intend to do so. That is their plan. Once I understood that everything the bees have done since last swarming season was done so that they would be able to survive the Winter, and have a shot at reproducing (swarming) this season, it was as if a light bulb illuminated above my head. The "nectar congestion" that we have all observed in the brood nest prior to swarming is not accidental, and it is not causal in the swarming process. It is merely the final step in the bees' year long plan to throw a reproductive swarm.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Gentlemen,

You forgot your Snelgrove board.

Having said that I'm going to go re-read about its' use. I'll be back.

Dickm


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"It is true that you can't checkerboard a super of honey if it isn't there. This doesn't prove that checkerboarding, or nectar management, "doesn't apply to northern beekeeps." You can't checkerboard in the South, either, if there is no honey above the broodnest. To use nectar management, the beekeeper must manage colonies in such a manner as to have overhead honey when the buildup begins. Planning for this begins the year before, and is an important part of nectar management. If the beekeeper elects not to do so, that is a decision not to do so. It doesn't prove that it wouldn't work if one tried it."

I'll let Walt respond to your quarry, as he stated it best in the paragraph below. And I stand by my statement that CB'ing does not apply to northern beekeepers.


"peggjam 

Dont be upset by your misinterpretation  my fault; not yours. In the articles prepared for 
B. Culture, your circumstance was treated, but in the manuscript the descriptions are in reference to the wintering configuration recommended. For your brood in the top deep in late winter, CB is not applicable. If you check the URL that MB quoted, you will find that reversal and maintaining empty comb at the top are all you need to do  if done early enough. We will fix that in the next update."


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

Merry Christmas everyone,

Peggjam,

I am only trying to clear up any misinformation on Walt's nectar management principles, _at his request._

His quote that you posted says the same thing that I am trying to explain to everyone, that cb'ing is by definition not applicable or even possible when you have brood to the top and no honey reserve above. That fact does not prove in any way that nectar management would not work if the beekeeper were to manage his or her colonies in such a way as to have that honey reserve available in the Spring, and then _actually give nectar management a try._

A careful reading of Walt's note that was posted earlier in this thread reveals that he has an idea as to how a northern beekeeper might accomplish this.

I realize that you will continue to stand by your statement that "CB'ing does not apply to northern beekeepers." I truly wish, though, that you would make an effort to fully understand Walt's methods and how and why they work, and then give them a try and gain some experience with nectar management before stating to the group that it won't work in the north.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"I realize that you will continue to stand by your statement that "CB'ing does not apply to northern beekeepers." I truly wish, though, that you would make an effort to fully understand Walt's methods and how and why they work, and then give them a try and gain some experience with nectar management before stating to the group that it won't work in the north."

I fully understand what Walt is saying, I understand what MB is saying and further more I understand what you are saying. But I just wish you would read and understand what Walt is saying. 

I really don't understand what would be gained by leaving on an extra full super of honey in the fall so one might be able to preform CB in the north.  

I don't see that you will gain anything by doing this. One could argue that the same result could be gained if CB'ing was done after placing the first super on in the spring, in conjunction with placing on a second super.  

CB'ing is a nice southern practice, and if it works good. I just don't see any practial use for it if you are in an area where there is a real winter, and not only is enough stores of concern, but also the overall size of the winter hive is a concern. 

If CB'ing is so great for northern beekeeps in your opinnion, then why does it matter what MHO is?  Anyway, i've beat this horse to death, time to move onto a different topic.


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## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

<I truly wish, though, that you would make an effort to fully understand Walt's methods and how and why they work, and then give them a try and gain some experience with nectar management before stating to the group that it won't work in the north.>

Welcome to my world Rob.

Merry Christmas everyone.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Hey, Wade, if you want to try it go ahead, just make sure you have some comb to use, as foundation will not work for this.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

This has been a very interesting thread. It does not appear that it has managed to convince anyone to change their strategy, but it has shed a lot of light on the differences in each.

There are a few different nectar management approaches which seem to all be extremely effective if followed to the letter. And although all of these methods could be "forced" to work well in any region, some just seem to "fit" better in certain climates and seasonal cycles. 

Guess it all comes down once again to individual beekeeper "preference". Pick the one that makes the most sense to you and go for it.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Our colony manipulations are by the frame, rarely by the box.
As the years have progressed, I have "reversed" fewer and fewer boxes in our outfit.
There is the occasion, after a restart for example, that a new queen has layed out the upper brood box with the lower box idle leading into the honey flow.
This we will reverse.
In most other instances, a certain amount of brood may be sacrificed by this crude procedure.
Therefore, brood position is adjusted by the frame.
Pollen needs to be close to the emerging brood and this, (among everything else) is adjusted at the same time.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

Hello. Thanks Harry V. Your very last post[so far] on this thread answered my question. I had a hive[2 deep] that apparently lost their queen in MID-SUMMER but managed to produce their own. After about 3.5 weeks from suspected hatching of queen I thought I should check that bottom super and sure enough it was sparse with eggs or brood while the top was pretty full. I did a "restart/reverse". It worked fine. It was kind of a "no-brainer" decision but it's nice to know that about a problem that isn't discussed in "the books".


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Harry: > "Our colony manipulations are by the frame, rarely by the box."
"Therefore, brood position is adjusted by the frame."

I would like to hear a little more detail on your methods, if you don't mind sharing. 
How do you adjust the brood frames into the idle box? (I'm assuming that's the lower box) How many frames at once? How often? What kind of things are you looking for?


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

> If CB'ing is so great for northern beekeeps in your opinnion


I'm sure I've neither said nor implied that Nectar Management is great for northern beekeepers, Peggjam. It may be that Nectar Management isn't the most productive management style for the north. I've just pointed out, for the open minded among us that may want to give NM a try, that your statement "that CB'ing does not apply to northern beekeepers" is not based on any personal experience you have with Nectar Management. You ask why your opinion matters. It matters to me because I would hate to see someone with your apparent level of enthusiasm for beekeeping pass up a chance to try Nectar Management because you don't think it will work. I certainly don't intend to upset you!

Your opinion also matters due to the fact that another beekeeper from the north may read your statement "that CB'ing does not apply to northern beekeepers" and just give up on the idea altogether, not realizing that you haven't actually tried it.

Walt has asked that I keep on eye on these threads that address Nectar Management and try to answer any questions that I can, and ensure that people wanting to try his methods have the correct information. I'm glad to do it, because I have seen Nectar Management work, and would enjoy seeing others have success with it. More importantly, though, I know Walt would enjoy it. I don't mean to offend you in the process.


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## Kelbee (Jan 3, 2006)

Im going to risk pointing out some things that were not initially obvious to me as a newbee with a steep learning curve. Ive never read Walts manuscript, but have read some of his articles and numerous discussions and threads on the topic(including this one). If Im off base, someone please tell me.

CBing and Nectar Management are not interchangeable terms. Nectar Management may be utilized with or without CBing.

In late winter, the first step in Nectar Management is to break up any honey cap that exists above the brood nest. If a full super of honey (or more) exists, then CBing is appropriate. If the brood nest has moved up into the top box, but a honey cap still exists at the top of that box, then reversing is appropriate. If no honey cap exists, then this step is skipped altogether.

Thereafter, perpetual expansion is encouraged by continually adding boxes of empty drawn comb on top. I believe this is the key concept to Nectar Management (not CBing) and can be practiced in any climate.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

> "If the brood nest has moved up into the top box, but a honey cap still exists at the top of that box, then reversing is appropriate."

This is where you have to be extremely careful when reversing. There is potential for heavy brood damage if done too soon. 

If the top deep has bees and brood, as well as a crown of capped honey still in place, there is a good probablility that there is some brood also at the top of the bottom deep. If you reverse at this point you have split the brood, top and bottom, and left a band of honey in the center of the two boxes. If you get a cold spell or there are not enough bees to cover both areas then there will be some heavy brood losses.


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

Hello Kellbee,

Actually, "Checkerboarding" is what Walt initially called his system. He later changed the name to "Nectar Management." The terms refer to the same system, but you'll find the terms used interchangeably.

Nectar Management involves managing your colonies in such a fashion that the bees go into the buildup with overhead honey. Then this band of honey is broken up with every other frame being replaced with empty comb, and the pulled honey frames are staggered with empty comb in the next box. Empty comb goes above these boxes as required.

As to your specific questions: If there is a super of honey above the brood, Nectar Management, or checkerboarding, can be performed. 

If the brood goes to the top of the top box, then Nectar Management is neither necessary or possible. Walt would recommend putting empty comb above this box. If there is an empty box below, then reversal and use of this empty comb as your first box would work well. The caution mentioned by Mike above is important here.

I will try to find out from Walt what his specific recommendation is on your question regarding honey above the brood in the same box, but nothing above. I personally break the honey band up by inserting at least one empty frame in the middle of the brood nest, and place empty comb above that. I've found this to work very well so far, but the Winters are not very harsh where I live. Walt may have a better idea.

I highly recommend getting Walt's manuscript - it'll clear up a lot of information for you. It's a great addition to your library.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"Your opinion also matters due to the fact that another beekeeper from the north may read your statement "that CB'ing does not apply to northern beekeepers" and just give up on the idea altogether, not realizing that you haven't actually tried it."

I don't see anyway that I can try it, short of leaving alot of excess honey on, that I could extract and sell, that will really not do much for the bees, just so I can do checkerboarding? As I have pointed out in numrous posts, Walt has also stated the same thing that I have. CB'ing would not apply to northern beekeepers who don't have a honey cap in their hive in early Feb. I don't see what the problem is with interperting what I have stated. In another theard in 101, I detailed what I feel a beekeep would have to do in order to CB, and someone pointed out that all you would have to do is reverse the hivebodies and add a super, I can't argue with that logic. If someone actually thinks it's a good idea to reverse hivebodies in early Feb, then they will have to learn the hard way what this will do to a hive. 

The only thing I can add to this is if it is so important for northern beekeeps to CB, then anyone who wants to do so, go do it. I will not be doing it as I feel that it is inapporate for my operation to consider this as an option, or that it would add anything useful to my operation.


"If the brood goes to the top of the top box, then Nectar Management is neither necessary or possible. Walt would recommend putting empty comb above this box. If there is an empty box below, then reversal and use of this empty comb as your first box would work well. The caution mentioned by Mike above is important here."

This is your statement, define how anyone in the north would be able to avoid this, without leaving on extra supers? I only run a two deep hive in the winter, that is more than enough for the bees to contend with. The bees and brood are always in the top box in early Feb, there is no honeycap to checkerboard, and I wouldn't even if there was, as it would remove it from the reach of the cluster, and could in fact cause the hive to starve. All thay so I can CB??? I don't think so.


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

Hey Peggjam,

I understand that you don't want to try it, and I hope that however you manage your colonies, you get great results! I'm just excited about this and enjoy helping Walt make sure the information is available. My only goal here is to avoid people getting the impression that it *can't* be done in the north. Whether or not it is a good way to go can only be found out by giving it a try if one is so inclined.

To answer your question as to how to avoid having brood to the top, you would have to (1)leave honey on in the Fall as you mention, or (2)you could read Walt's message that you posted earlier where he describes how you might be able to keep the bees in the bottom box (leaving you with a box of honey above) and give that a try:



> When northern beekeepers learn that the bees did not eat their way into the upper box in early winter, some of this flap will go away. The cluster consumes very little honey in early winter. Most of the bees are in a state of semi-suspended animation. Like other insects in hibernation, they require little food intake in that state. Honey is used as fuel in the cluster to provide heat, but if the band of insulating bees is adequate, very little honey is needed.
> 
> Heres what happens in Yankeeland: In October, when northern frost/freeze weather knocks out field forage, the colony stills has substantial brood. As the brood emerges, there is no nectar to fill the brood nest. (In my area the colony normally does). The colony knows better than to try to winter on empty comb. They need the fuel. They relocate the cluster up into the upper deep on solid capped honey. The bottom deep is abandoned in early winter. This occurs some time after the beeks last hive opening, on a mild day, and gives the impression that they ate their way into the upper deep. Feeding is iffy in mostly full time clustering weather  they need cluster-breaking weather to move the feed. When northern beeks learn to feed simultaneously with brood nest closeout, the bees will likely start winter brood in the lower box. Once brood is started they are locked in place and upward movement is limited to expansion.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"I understand that you don't want to try it, and I hope that however you manage your colonies, you get great results!"

I don't think I ever said that I didn't want to try it, just that it was not feasible. Bring some hives up, i'll set up a yard for you and you can try it, and see what you think.

"I'm just excited about this and enjoy helping Walt make sure the information is available. My only goal here is to avoid people getting the impression that it can't be done in the north. Whether or not it is a good way to go can only be found out by giving it a try if one is so inclined."

So was I......until I came to the bare truth, that it would not be feasible. Yes, I say it does not apply to northern beekeepers...and that is because it just is not feasible. We all feed our bees with the intention of having the bees fill the broodnest as the brood hatches, we already do that. The cluster still ends up in the top brood chamber, leaving no honeycap to checkerboard. I think if someone truely wanted to CB they would need to leave a full super of honey on to get it done. Hives in the north need alot of food to get through the winter. They keep the center of the cluster at 90+ degrees, and that takes alot of energy. Our hives typically go into winter with weights of 135-160#'s, that's about all these hives are going to hold.


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

If I could, Peggjam, really, I would. It would be fun. Unfortunately, my real job, family, bees, etc. currently would prevent me from managing hives that far away.

It would be a real learning experience for me. It would be fascinating to observe the differences in trying this up there! I'll pass your offer on to Walt - who knows? maybe he'll bite!

It seems that in trying to ensure you had correct information that I have really aggravated you, and for that I apologize. I really do understand what you're saying, and after three plus years working with Walt I really do understand Nectar Management. I spoke to Walt today, explained what we've been discussing the last few days, and asked him to get to a computer and read through it when he gets a chance, and chime in if he wants to. He's a little better at the written word than me!


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

This link will take you to a thread where beekeepers from Wyoming, Michigan, and Canada share their experiences with Nectar Management (Checkerboarding).

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=005612#000000

If you have time, follow this link to the BWrangler's website to read about his thoughts and experiences with Checkerboarding in Wyoming.

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/checker-boarding/


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

My understanding of Walts system (I bought his manuscript, great reed.) is that you cb your frames when they become full not just first thing in the spring. If in the spring you put on an empty box over your single deep or double deep, when that box becomes full is when you cb. My understanding is that when this box becomes full and the bees start to backfill the brood nest as the brood emerges, this is one of the signals to start the swarming process. By cb this box when full it stops the backfilling of the brood nest. Traditionally you would just slap on empty boxes. But since the weather may still get very cold in the spring the bees are reluctant to cross the honey dome that they created from the first spring flow. Cb breaks the dome; they dont start to backfill the brood nest and hopefully stop the swarming process.


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

Hello Mac,

Walt has not found it necessary to checkerboard honey/nectar more than once in his area. After the intial checkerboarding manipulation, he needs only to keep adding empty comb to stay ahead of the expanding brood nest. He tries to maintain two shallow supers of empty comb overhead.

In your area, you may find it beneficial to checkerboard a second time - I sometimed need to do so where I live (Mobile, AL).



> My understanding is that when this box becomes full and the bees start to backfill the brood nest as the brood emerges, this is one of the signals to start the swarming process.


Rather than seeing backfilling as a signal to the bees to begin the swarming process, Walt sees it as an intentional, final step in the colony's swarm plan. Backfilling begins when the colony has expanded the brood nest to its limit as defined by the honey reserve. The purpose of the backfilling is to reduce the size of the broodnest so that it will be manageable by the reduced workforce after the swarm departs. Checkerboarding the overhead honey seems to distort their perception of the reserve and causes the brood nest to expand into, and often through, the area where this honey is stored.

After the initial checkerboarding manipulation in my area, Walt and I have observed that at some point the bees in some colonies begin fattening an area of nectar storage cells above the brood dome to honey depth with light wax, something that doesn't occur where Walt lives. I suspect that, due to the longer season, some colonies are able to attempt to reestablish a honey reserve and cast a reproductive swarm. In these situations I do checkerboard a second time to avoid this happening.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Although the latitudes may be similar, upstate NY and the northwest coast do not have even remotely similar timing of necter flows. OR is a milder climate with very early blooming fruit trees, few late frosts and relatively little of the oak/maple (formerly cheasnut)forests that define the northeast. I have tried necter management in PA and found it of limited use here, and only with some colonies. Our climate is significantly warmer than most of NY state (our frost date is usually about May 26)

[ December 28, 2006, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Aspera ]


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

To All,

My reaction to Roys first printout was that you folks are COMING ALONG, but you are not GETTING ALONG very well

To be sure, beekeeping is a complex subject. Some things that affect techniques of management are region of the country, forage in that area, and the development timeline of the bees responding to those variables. In addition, the age of the colony affects their objectives for any given season. A pending article (maybe April) treats the subject of the differences between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year colonies. Well come back to this later  first, a few general comments.

Dont get hung up on February. Yes, I do my thing in Feb. when my colonies are in full bore build up. March here is the swarm prep season to release a swarm about April first. Peggjams bees are struggling in Feb. to offset fall bee loss to maintain cluster size. I would guess western N.Y. bees dont get into full bore build up until April  about two months behind the schedule here. My Feb. is Peggjams April.

A good reference for regional affects is the hardiness zone charts available at your country extension office. Connie Krochmal had one in her Nov. BC article as it applied to fruit trees. Although small variations exist between her Arbor Day Foundation chart and the ones I use, there is a wealth of info in hers. The zone bands are color-coded from north to south, in 10 degree increments of average annual low temps. Those bands are fairly uniform, north to south in the middle of country where the polar air descends from central Canada. But ocean influence affects them greatly at extreme east and west. Wade might be surprised to find that Eugene OR is on the line between zone 8 and 9. Nine is near tropical and moving east, we see Z5 in the mountainous areas. Thats the same difference we see from gulf coast Louisiana to northern Illinois. Latitude is only part of the picture. Elevation is significant. The higher elevations get much colder.

I live in the lower edge of Z6. For those of you who think Alabama (6 miles south) is the deep south, think again. Z6 swoops eastward and northward to include most of Pennsylvania. We get snow and ice, for a short period. Southern Alabama, where packages and queens are produced is in Z8. (Coastal warming) I thought I made it plain in my manuscript where I was located, but didnt make it plain in application for other areas. 

I believe that the bees key on forage availability. It could be other things such as day length, temperature average, etc. Nobody knows. But I see a speeding up with a mild, late winter, and a slowing down with late freezes in their development schedule. The key milestone in their development schedule is reproductive cut off. I may be the only person in that world that believes in that milestone, but it is obvious when you know what to look for. Swarm prevention, main flow storing, brood nest expansion or contraction  all are affected by the timing of repro cut off. 

The differences in internal operations of the colony by age of existence is also important. First year colonies are motivated by establishing wintering requirements. They either fulfill those requirements, or they perish in their first winter. Multiple priorities include building comb, rearing replacement bees, accumulating winter stores, and feeding the colony in parallel. Tough assignment.

It doesnt matter whether the starter is a split, package, natural swarm, observation hive or nuc. All are in a live or die struggle. Operations are tailored to get the job done. The natural swarm is best prepared for this task. They left the parent colony with the best mix of talent to make a go at it. Packages, splits, or observation hives are at the mercy of the beek responsible. There is no way he can select the proportions of age groups to insure the right mix. Nucs are typically splits with enough age to organize the work force. They fare better.

Second year colonies have two options. If they get fully established, by filling their cavity with comb and stores, behave much like 3rd year colonies. But if they perceive that they didnt get it done in their 1st year, they can double clutch back down into the establishment mode. To do this they develop wax-making capability in the early season  well before the third year colonies. They can still swarm if they complete swarm prep requirements in the accelerated mode. And thats the objective of every overwintered colony. (Generate a reproductive swarm)

3rd year colonies that are fully established dedicate build up to reproduction. If they are strong enough and forage supports their needs, they are successful in swarming.

The sequence of steps in colony spring development is very important. The colony builds brood volume, starts swarm preps, rears house bees, and starts main flow storing on a predictable schedule. Repro cut off is the change in objectives from swarm ambition (prep) to rearing house bees for the main flow.

Where, on their schedule that manipulations are performed does make a difference.

The interaction of the above general info means that there are a multitude of variations in colony reaction to the beeks meddling in their business.

Another unpopular opinion is that the queen is given credit for judgments she doesnt make and preferences she doesnt have. Those credits pervade this thread. The queen has one judgment to make, and thats left to her because only she makes it. She decides whether to lay a fertile or an unfertile egg, based on cell size. Where and when to lay are controlled by her court. She is induced to lay in cells which her daughters have prepared for eggs. When the steering committee (court) has no need of her services, she can be found lumbering aimlessly over empty comb with no interest.

Expansion has two meanings in this thread. Overwintered brood nest expansion takes place in late winter and lasts until approximately last frost timing for your area. Any colony strong enough to reach maximum, safe consumption of honey reserves prior to last frost timing, starts swarm preparations by reducing brood nest volume. Reduction can start 3 to 4 weeks prior to last frost timing for the swarming colony and generally close to last frost timing for the remainder of colonies, that do not reach swarm commit prior to that time. Last frost timing correlates well with apple blossom timing in the wooded East.

The brood nest expansion stops at repro c/o (last frost timing) and brood nest reduction starts. At the beginning of the main flow the colony has developed wax making capability to support honey storage. They need wax to extend cell depth and cap cured nectar. And they want to fill their space to the top with honey. For the main flow storing, they will draw foundation to support filling the overhead space. Thats a different kind of expansion from brood nest expansion. Call it anything you like, but lets not overlook the difference, and mix them up, indiscriminately.

The subject of this thread is Hive box reversing. Although you folks have wandered away from the subject in several directions. I will try to limit my comments to that manipulation. That subject is complicated enough without discussing the tangents. A few general statements of opinion based on observation, are offered to start:

1.	In late winter an empty below the cluster should be reversed to put that box in a position to be used for brood. The colony wants to grow upward in that season to take advantage of heat rise from the cluster. There is little advantage for doing it prior to field nectar availability. The colony generally will not populate the raised empty with brood until nectar is stored in it first. The nectar is consumed to feed the colony in the shape of the expansion dome. When that nectar is consumed, and the cells prepared for eggs, those cells are filled with eggs in a batch. This gives the impression that brood nest expansion just jumped into the raised empty. Dont ask me why the colony needs nectar in those cells first to condition them for brood. Thats not something that can be determined by observation. However, it is consistent with consumption of honey for brood nest expansion.
2.	Hive body reversal is the swarm prevention manipulation most recommended in the literature. Reversal for swarm prevention is not generally understood for its effects. Its definitely not for keeping the brood volume growing upward. The reverse is true. It causes the brood volume to grow downward in a left-handed way. Assuming a double deep, reversal early as in 1. above, both hive bodies are essentially filled with brood. At that time, the colony starts backfilling the upper chamber from the top down. If they complete backfilling, swarm commit is signaled by starting swarm cells. To prevent backfill to proceed to that point, reverse hive bodies. What this does is cause the colony to start over in backfilling from the top because the raised lower had brood to the top. The bees want the nectar of backfill above the brood  if they swarm that nectar will be cured and capped for over-wintering honey. What was the top box is now the bottom. As a result of the first (1. above) reversal that box would normally have a dome of brood in the lower part, and nectar above the brood and in the surrounding dome shoulders. This nectar above the dome and in the shoulders of the dome is the swarm prep reserve if left alone ( Rebuilt with nectar instead of capped honey.) When that box is placed on the bottom they will convert the reserve by consumption to brood, and again have brood to the top bars through the brood nest. They dont want their reserve sandwiched between brood volumes. This expansion of the brood nest in the lowered box is taking place concurrently with brood nest reduction by backfilling in the raised box.

To be effective as a swarm prevention manipulation, the process must be repeated at two to three week intervals until reproductive cut off. Brood of all ages in the raised box slows backfilling pending brood emergence. But at the end of the 3 week worker brood cycle the colony is back where they want to be  ready to commit to swarm by starting queen swarm cells. Note that Peggjam reverses early to put the empty back into service and resorts to some other technique later for swarm prevention.

3.	Prevention of reproductive swarms by periodic hive body reversal does not come without potential overcrowding swarms. Those late swarms can result from depriving the colony of their natural population control of brood nest reduction. Periodic reversal results in more brood volume through the swarm prep period than the colony would have if permitted to do it their way. The additional population generated by excess brood volume can generate an overcrowded swarm if space is not added overhead early in the sequence. I suspect that reversals are the cause of after swarms (pure conjecture). If the colony doesnt balance population in proportion to stores and space with the primary overcrowding swarm, they can fine-tune with after swarms of diminishing numbers of bees. This conjecture is based on not seeing after swarms in my area when the colony is permitted to swarm  doing it by their natural format. The literature generated in the northeastern tier of states comes from the same area where periodic reversals are favored for swarm prevention.

Had enough? One more!

4.	Under some circumstances the colony will expand the brood nest downward into empty comb. Let me describe one case where multiple colonies in the same outyard did it in unison. Raising of an empty on the bottom in late winter was delayed on several colonies because they were, collectively, using the upper edge of comb in the lower empty for feed pollen. The feed pollen was supporting full frames of brood in the upper across the gap between boxes. To avoid separating their feed pollen from brood by raising that feed pollen to the top, the first reversal was postponed. About half the colonies with delayed reversal expanded the brood nest downward to fill the lower empty with brood. They did it the same way they expand into empty comb overhead  filling it first with nectar, and displacing the nectar with brood in a batch. Storing nectar below the brood nest is grossly out of character for the species, but I suspect that was a case of having some time in the vegetative development schedule. Believe me  the colony knows where they are on the season schedule (Ques unknown.) Speeding up or slowing colony development was mentioned in the lead in to this blurb. I believe that those colonies that elected to expand downward were ahead of schedule. Instead of marking time restricted to the upper hive body, and limiting swarm population to what could be generated in that space, they used the time to enhance swarm population. If that was true, its another unreported gimmick in their survival traits. Who knows what other gimmicks lurk in their genes?

I may address other side issues in this thread when I get back home in mid Feb.

Walt Wright


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## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

Thanks Walt for the time and effort spent to write that out for us. I'm astounded by the depth of understanding of bee activity in the hive, that you are willing to share.

Also, thanks Walt's son-in-law for the effort you expended to get Walt involved.

Walt is an obvious candidate to be immortalized in the ABC XYZ of Bee Culture. If he doesn't wind up in there, its just not right.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

All,

Reviewing what Roy posted on 29 Dec, there was a timing reference not clearly stated. The last frost date of regional weather, the repro c/o of the bees development schedule, and apple blossom of the vegetative season development all come together here in the first week of April. I used those references interchangeably in the blurb, and regret any confusion it may have caused.

Walt


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I'd like to know a couple of things. Walt wrote that he started beekeeping in his late 50s. How many hives does he have and for how long?

The second question is:
Has he ever wintered a hive in the north?

Fair questions, I think.

dickm


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Longarm asks:
I read another book last night (First Lessons in Beekeeping by C.P. Dadant) wherein the author recommends reversing the deeps twice in the same season: once in very early Spring and once again just before the main flow.

Walt replies:
To be effective as a swarm prevention manipulation, the process must be repeated at two to three week intervals until reproductive cut off.

Hafta reply to this topic. And, remembering the all beekeeping is local...

Reversing brood chambers is a good swarm control measure. By reversing the brood chambers at the beginning of the first good flow...Dandelion in my area...allows the queen to move up onto empty comb that was formerly at the bottom of the hive. Bees and queens like to move up...that's their nature. While they will move down, if forced to by incoming nectar, they don't want to. So, without reversing, the bees establish their broodnest in the top. Then as nectar comes in from the first flows, the bees of course, place it in the top. But, the bees are trying to expand their broodnest. And, nectar is coming in. And where do they place that nectar? At first, they place it around the fringes...empty comb space around and above the brood. This space is quickly filled. Then where do they place the incoming nectar? It won't go below the cluster, but rather within the cluster. 

They place the incoming in cells where brood is hatching. Now, with an expanding broodnest, this spells trouble. Think of the brood rotation cycle. The queen lays. The eggs hatch, the larvae are fed, and eventually capped. When the brood hatches from capped cells, what goes on with those cells? They are cleaned and polished, in preparation for the queen to re-lay in those cells. That is where the queen would rather lay her next round...dark brood comb where brood has recently hatched. 

But, there is incoming nectar...with no place to go! Where will the bees place it? In the cells where brood has just hatched, and before the queen has layed her next round. So, there is competition for comb space. While the queen is wanting to lay eggs in her favorite place, the bees are placing nectar there first. To me, that is one of the main triggers for swarming...nectar being placed within the broodnest, where the queen is trying to find a place to lay eggs. 

That's where reversing comes in. It places empty comb space at the top, so the cluster can expand upwards. The queen has comb in which to lay, and the bees have a place to put incoming. 

This is great...for awhile. Eventually, the same thing happens. And, the same competition for comb space goes on. Should the colony be reversed again? And again? And again?

I used to do that. Didn't seem to matter, because the colony eventually got back to the same place...competition for comb space. And, just how is a beekeeper with a large apiary supposed to reverse every colony, multiple times? Great if you have one backyard apiary. Not possible with many apiaries...not and get any other bee work done. Not and have a back that will allow you to stand up straight! "Beekeeper Back", don't ya know.

So, I had to change my approach to reversing and broodnest management. Rather than reverse my broodnests before and after Dandelion, I changed. 

At the very start of Dandelion bloom...no flow, but bloom...I place two supers on the hive. Acts similarly to reversing. The cluster can move up. I don't use excluders. As nectar starts to come in, the bees now have a place to put it. Of course, the queen can move up...the cluster can move up. And many times they do. If she wants to, she will lay in the bottom super. I don't mind that, as I can change that later. 

Once the flow starts, I reverse the broodnest...on the flow, not before it. This again allows for upward movement of cluster and queen. If needed, I add another super, always maintaining some empty comb above the cluster. Always giving them the chance to move up. When reversing at this point, some colonies will have young queen cells started, or eggs in queen cups. All must be removed...ALL! 

Most colonies will quit swarming preparations at this point. It seems to me that once the bees are gathering honey, and the queen has a place to lay, and the bees have a place to store nectar, tha swarming preparations cease.

Of course, this is not the case with all colonies. Some will continue to make swarm preparations. This is where the practice of multiple reversals of the brood chambers comes in. If it works once, then why not twice or three times?

Ok. reverse again. Does this stop all of them? No. And will they all swarm if they aren't reversed a second or third time? No. Should you reverse every colony, just because some number of them don't respond to reversing once, and proper supering? I don't think so.

I believe swarming is a requeening method that some colonies use. You know...those colonies that will swarm, no matter what you do. I also believe that reversing before the main honey flow results in loss of honey in the supers. Why would bees place incoming in the supers, when there is empty comb space between the cluster and the supers? In this case, I believe they will place a significant portion of the flow into the top of the broodnest. Honey not placed into the supers is lost production.

What to do with those colonies that don't respond to one reversal and timely supering? Pay attention to what the bees are telling you. They are attempting to requeen. Ablige them. Requeen the colony. 

I think I should say, that splitting a swarmy colony...removing a nuc...is one successful swarm control method. Most will give up swarming after being split and empty combs added. But, splitting also reduces the colony population. It can take several weeks for a split colony to rebuild to full strength...if they actually ever do. Such splitting will result in loss of honey production from early flows. To make good honey crops, you need Bees, bees, and more bees. As we all know, one colony of 60,000 bees will make more honey than two colonies with 30,000 bees each. Keeping your colonies at peak strength, and addressing swarming in those that refuse to quit swarming preparations, will result in colonies being ready for a flow when it comes along.

Again, I'll say...all beekeeping is local. The flow patterns and progressions that Walt experiences in Tennesee, are not the same as I experience in Vermont. But, I think that, in theory, it is all the same. Maintain your colonies at top strength, and work with your bees...not against them. That's how you make honey.


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## JWG (Jun 25, 2004)

"I place two supers on the hive. Acts similarly to reversing. The cluster can move up. I don't use excluders. As nectar starts to come in, the bees now have a place to put it. Of course, the queen can move up...the cluster can move up. And many times they do. If she wants to, she will lay in the bottom super. I don't mind that, as I can change that later."

Thanks for your interesting posts, Mike. Question about reversing on the dandelion flow: Say the queen has gone up into the honey supers, and you reverse the brood boxes lower in the hive. Then she is still running around in the supers and the reversal isn't affecting the area where she is laying. (She still ends up competing with the nectar storage, only higher in the hive.) Even if you find her and put her down, isn't she apt to just run back up?

With so many colonies, you don't have time to hunt her down and place her down in the reversed chambers, below, and you don't use excluders. How does this work out, then, generally? And should you find q. cells, do you then spend time breaking the whole hive down to find and destroy them? 

When finding swarm cells well underway I have sometimes (when too short on time) just moved the whole hive to another stand. They then immediately tear down all q cells themselves, and the field bees join adjacent colonies. It is not ideal, of course -- the moved colonies take weeks to develop a strong field force again, but at least they aren't in the trees. 

I have also tried dividing the brood nest upon discovering q cells -- just putting the upper brood box up above the supers, above a screen board which provides the upper unit with an entrance. Doing this, the queen most times ends up in the top unit. The idea was for the upper unit to tear down any q cells (which they did), the lower unit to rear a queen, and both to be reunited after swarm season, around 1 July for the main flow. Easy. No queen hunting. Reliable.

This was great in theory but...
I was dismayed to discover that the lower units would swarm... and cast repeated afterswarms! as the virgin queens emerged. The swarms emerged with the virgins. It was a consistent result among the 8-10 colonies I tried this on. It seems there was such a strong field force, it caused an imbalance and this caused the swarms to be cast. Had this not been the case, the plan would have worked out great. Oh well...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>Question about reversing on the dandelion flow: Say the queen has gone up into the honey supers, and you reverse the brood boxes lower in the hive. Then she is still running around in the supers and the reversal isn't affecting the area where she is laying. (She still ends up competing with the nectar storage, only higher in the hive.) Even if you find her and put her down, isn't she apt to just run back up?

She goes down to lay where the brood is hatching. There is only a bit of brood in the supers, while most is in that top brood box that you reverse down. She will in most cases abandon the supers as nectar is stored there.

>With so many colonies, you don't have time to hunt her down and place her down in the reversed chambers, below, and you don't use excluders. How does this work out, then, generally? 

As I said, she will go down. Once there is honey in the supers...especially the top one, and even if there is still some brood in the bottom super, you don't need an excluder. When you add the third super...either at reversal or soon on the next round, reverse the first two supers, and add the third on top. This places the super with honey below the super with brood. The queen will rarely cross over the super full of honey to lay in the super with brood.

>And should you find q. cells, do you then spend time breaking the whole hive down to find and destroy them?

You bet I do. I check every frame by shaking off the bees and checking for cells and cups. These are destroyed. One exception...when the cells are older, sealed cells. At this point, it may be a mistake to cut out the cells. You have to determing first, if the colony has swarmed. If you cut the cells, and they have swarmed...colony is doomed.Probably better at that point to make splits from the hive, using the queen cells nto allow the bees to rear a new queen.

>When finding swarm cells well underway I have sometimes (when too short on time) just moved the whole hive to another stand. They then immediately tear down all q cells themselves, and the field bees join adjacent colonies. It is not ideal, of course -- the moved colonies take weeks to develop a strong field force again, but at least they aren't in the trees.

That's a long accepted method of swarm control. But, as you say...it takes weeks for the colony to build back up. That means lost honey. I find that when supered, reversed, cells cut, supered...the colony is into the honey flow and the vast majority won't swarm. Puting the supers on before the Dandelion flow takes the pressure off. So, when reversing is done, if there are cells started, most times they are very young larvae, or eggs. Pretty easy to stop swarming in these. 

>I have also tried dividing the brood nest upon discovering q cells -- 
>This was great in theory but...
I was dismayed to discover that the lower units would swarm... and cast repeated afterswarms!

If you would place the queen in the lower box, cutting out all the cells, and make a nuc from the top box and leave it above your screen, or as I do...a solid inner cover. Things might be better. Of course you have to remember that the bottom gets the field bees, and must be supered accordingly.

There are lots of different things you can try, to control swarming. I prefer to use methods that keep my colonies as strong as possible. As long as they have only young cells, and you address the caise of them wanting to swarm, you can be successful most of the time. It's when you're late getting there, and the cells are old that there is a problem. Don't be late!


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