# modified taranov split



## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

I'm thinking of doing the following next year. Tell me where I may go wrong:

1. Set up hive boxes for new hive in the location it will be at.
2. Take the boxes from a hive that I'm going to split and stack them in reverse order that they were in next to new hive location.
3. Take the top box in the stack and place on new hive.
4. put an empty box (no frames) on the top of the box I just placed on the new hive.
5. Put a fume board on top of the empty box and drive the bees out of the box that I put on the new hive down into the new hives lower boxes.
6. Take the empty box and the box that was just vacated of bees off of the new hive and put the vacated box back in its original place (bottom of old hive).
7. Repeat for all boxes in the stack.

When done, I should have all the bees from the old hive in the new hive including the queen. The old hive will be back in it's original order and just have capped brood and foraging bees that have returned. I expect foraging bees that went into the new hive from this process to leave the new hive and fly back to the old hive. End result would be a new hive with queen and non-foraging young nurse bees and the old hive with old foraging bees and brood that they can make a new queen from. Same result as a Taranov split if it works but without all the shaking of bees everywhere. Think it will work? I may have to block escape entrances of the new hive during the process so that the fume board will not drive the queen and nurse bees out of the new hive. I would probably put a couple of frames of honey in the new hive to try to keep them there. Would wait a few minutes after the last time of using the fume board to open the entrance. Would use a screened bottom board on new hive most likely.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

> The old hive will be back in it's original order and just have capped brood and foraging bees that have returned. I expect foraging bees that went into the new hive from this process to leave the new hive and fly back to the old hive.


This is just a variation of cut-back/fly-back split, not a "modified Taranov split".

The Taranov split (and its variations) is an *emergency split* where you are already in a swarming mode and can not stop it.
So, you make them "swarm" on your own terms and get to keep the actual pending swarm (not loose it).
Taranov's method's ingenious key point - *physical separation of the pending swarm bees from the stay-at-home bees.*

Do you see how you method is NOT a Taranov's split?
You proposing a variation of a planned split (Taranov's split is never a planned split, it is an emergency split that is done on the spot to prevent loosing a swarm).


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Ditch the whole fume board idea. There are much easier ways to accomplish the same thing without all the monkey motions. And, I am not sure why you want to do the equivalent of a flyback split, but not provide the returning foragers with the mated queen. They are not as equipped to produce a new queen from a frame of eggs as are the nurse bees you so tediously removed. Read up on flyback splits and follow the instructions, that is, no "modifications". You will get excellent results.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV, such absolutes - I thought you had been keeping bees for more than a week...  I agree what the OP describes is not a Taranov.

When I had a very small yard I used the Taranov process to do splits. Now that I have the space other methods are faster and easier. If a keeper has trouble finding queens, the Taranov is pretty foolproof.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

texanbelchers said:


> GregV, such absolutes - I thought you had been keeping bees for more than a week...  I agree what the OP describes is not a Taranov.
> 
> When I had a very small yard I used the Taranov process to do splits. Now that I have the space other methods are faster and easier. If a keeper has trouble finding queens, the Taranov is pretty foolproof.



I have the same problem with finding my dark queens and have used the Taranov to do a sort of bees to put above a Snelgrove double screen board for queen rearing. Not an emergency swarm killer.

Yesterday I shook bees that were building cells just to ensure I had one group with the queen and young bees and the started cells to put in one split and sort the bare frames to put in the other box. It accomplished about the same as a taranov procedure would have done but in a fraction of the time. Not a typical Taranov, not a pure Snelgrove Method 2 and not totally a fly away split. I will have to check back in a few days to see if the queen is indeed where I intended her to be. Being that cell construction was a bit ambiguous about whether supercedure or swarm preps, I grabbed something I knew would work for me.

What the original poster suggested would work but seems like a bit of dancing around. More than one way to skin a cat. It is all good! :thumbsup:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

texanbelchers said:


> GregV, such absolutes - I thought you had been keeping bees for more than a week...  I agree what the OP describes is not a Taranov.
> 
> When I had a very small yard I used the Taranov process to do splits. Now that I have the space other methods are faster and easier. If a keeper has trouble finding queens, the Taranov is pretty foolproof.


Well, Taranov had a very specific problem to solve and he did it the way he did at about 1947.
That is the Taranov artificial swarm. 
No more and no less.

I would avoid this mess if I can help it as unnecessary.







Did something similar this year due to the pending swarm - an urgent on-the-spot project since I could loose a swarm virtually tomorrow, not good (happy with the end result).
In the process the original queen got lost or damaged (always a risk when shaking).
I guess, I got a queen replaced that way and kept my bees too (they put up good honey).

Otherwise, fly-back/cut-back splitting is a good way to do - predictable and easy and gets you what you need.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregV said:


> Well, Taranov had a very specific problem to solve and he did it the way he did at about 1947.
> That is the Taranov artificial swarm.
> No more and no less.
> 
> ...


 I see another possibility that the queen was already gone before you started the shake. In any case, how one goes about doing the shaking can alter the degree of risk to her. I act differently when I am trying to catch to eliminate rather than to catch to keep.

I can understand someones perception of "absolute decrees"!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> I see another possibility that the queen was already gone before you started the shake. In any case, how one goes about doing the shaking can alter the degree of risk to her. I act differently when I am trying to catch to eliminate rather than to catch to keep.
> 
> I can understand someones perception of "absolute decrees"!


Based on the number of unhatched yet swarm cells AND volume of the bees - no swarm was issued yet but was pending soon.
Pretty sure the old queen was still somewhere in that hive ready to jump the ship.
Well, a couple of days after the being dumped out as in Taranov AND all the brood frames taken away too, for a good measure - the bees attempted an emergency QCs on the few missed brood patches - good enough indication that the old queen is no more.

What changed?
Well, I dumped them onto the tarp as prescribed and even left them outside on the tarp in the rainy night to sort things out.
In the end, the old queen was no more.

Anyways, it all worked out almost as prescribed.
I am getting good honey crop from these particular guys.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

People, I am very disappointed in you all . Not one argument broke out about the proper way to do a flyback and so many opportunities. 

The queen stays with the old hive to do her good work. Nurse bees and one or two brood frames from the hive you want as stock (Does not need to be from your split hive).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Saltybee said:


> People, I am very disappointed in you all . Not one argument broke out about the proper way to do a flyback and so many opportunities.
> 
> The queen stays with the old hive to do her good work. Nurse bees and one or two brood frames from the hive you want as stock (Does not need to be from your split hive).


Once the correction is made about the actual procedure in hand, the person (IF really interested) can study the splitting at their own pace.
BS is full of splitting instructions (fly-back is very well documented - I re-read the narration from Lauri probably 10-20 times - they are great).
Why rehash the same the N-th time; and the multiple repeats only make finding the good stuff really really hard.
We are all fully capable adults here.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Salty, I alluded to the proper way when asking why the mated queen was not staying with the foragers. I also suggested the OP read up on fly backs. Lauri's explanation is the definitive guide and anyone not familiar with this type of split should read what she has to say.


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## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies. I will study the fly-back method. One thing I was thinking about that my original proposed method might offer that might be different than the fly-back method is that if I end up with foragers and brood in one hive and the old queen and nurse bees in the other hive both of those situations could offer opportunities for mite control. The first one without the queen would get a brood break while they are making a queen and the one with the old queen could be treated immediately with one dose of formic acid and that should render that hive free of mites also. Although this wasn't a Taranov split as explained to me (not same motivation as Taranov and is a planned split) it does end up with the same configurations as a Taranov split so that is why I called it a modified Taranov split. I believe the configuration the Taranov split and what I proposed was espoused as a good thing from what I remember reading about it. Three hives going into winter and still going! I will study the fly-back method and may change my mind about what I will do assuming my bees survive tell about May 1st which is when I'm thinking of doing the splits). Thanks


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I dont think there is anything functionally wrong with your described split. Whether or not it is truly a Taranov is mere nit picking. It *would* be less disruptive to a crowded apiary than open shaking of all bees as Taranov described. There will be recently graduated flying bees in the old box and new bees emerging constantly so I dont think the emergency cells that will be built will suffer. _Theoretically_ emergency queens may be inferior but functionally I dont think you will notice.

The brood break for mite treatment is valid but unless you are treating hives individually maybe not too valuable in the big picture unless you are doing and documenting mite counts on individual colonies, and treating accordingly. I put sticky boards on a few colonies, check drone brood and treat everyone when I get some indications.

You may decide that some of the suggested alternatives are more efficient and less disruptive. Once a person gets the feeling that they can think out a workable solution to most bee problems things get a bit more relaxed and you can have fun playing with different methods to accomplish your purpose. I have fun with bees but I would not want to have to pay the rent with the proceeds!


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## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

crofter said:


> I dont think there is anything functionally wrong with your described split. Whether or not it is truly a Taranov is mere nit picking. It *would* be less disruptive to a crowded apiary than open shaking of all bees as Taranov described. There will be recently graduated flying bees in the old box and new bees emerging constantly so I dont think the emergency cells that will be built will suffer. _Theoretically_ emergency queens may be inferior but functionally I dont think you will notice.
> 
> The brood break for mite treatment is valid but unless you are treating hives individually maybe not too valuable in the big picture unless you are doing and documenting mite counts on individual colonies, and treating accordingly. I put sticky boards on a few colonies, check drone brood and treat everyone when I get some indications.
> 
> You may decide that some of the suggested alternatives are more efficient and less disruptive. Once a person gets the feeling that they can think out a workable solution to most bee problems things get a bit more relaxed and you can have fun playing with different methods to accomplish your purpose. I have fun with bees but I would not want to have to pay the rent with the proceeds!



Thanks for the comments. As far as proceeds go, I'm sure my honey is some of the most expensive honey in existence!


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## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

crofter said:


> I dont think there is anything functionally wrong with your described split. Whether or not it is truly a Taranov is mere nit picking. It *would* be less disruptive to a crowded apiary than open shaking of all bees as Taranov described. There will be recently graduated flying bees in the old box and new bees emerging constantly so I dont think the emergency cells that will be built will suffer. _Theoretically_ emergency queens may be inferior but functionally I dont think you will notice.
> 
> The brood break for mite treatment is valid but unless you are treating hives individually maybe not too valuable in the big picture unless you are doing and documenting mite counts on individual colonies, and treating accordingly. I put sticky boards on a few colonies, check drone brood and treat everyone when I get some indications.
> 
> You may decide that some of the suggested alternatives are more efficient and less disruptive. Once a person gets the feeling that they can think out a workable solution to most bee problems things get a bit more relaxed and you can have fun playing with different methods to accomplish your purpose. I have fun with bees but I would not want to have to pay the rent with the proceeds!


I'm interested in the method because I don't have to find the queen (like you have to do with the flyback split) which is difficult for me and I don't have to shake bees and have a bunch of hot bees like the Taranov method does. Seems like win-win as long as fuming the bees doesn't cause harm. I'm going to use the almond smelling stuff with the metal topped fume board. I saw that you posted about doing Taranov splits in another thread. Seems like it is used a fair amount so should be a viable method. I could also put supercedure cells in the old hive instead of letting them rear an emergency queen or I could just buy a queen and put in the old box.


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## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

Tried my plan yesterday. 

took boxes from old hive and tried to drive bees out of them (one at a time) into new hive location. Bees would not move. Tried using rag with fume stuff on it in a non-lit smoker and that didn't work either so I just took each frame out of the old boxes and rapped on each one to send all the bees into the new boxes (had an empty box with no frames on top of the new hive to catch all the bees that fell off the frames).

Today, the two old hives look like they still have a lot of foragers going in and out. The two new hives don't have a lot of foragers since they returned to their old locations but have a lot of nurse bees and hopefully laying queens. Will go in on the Saturday after this coming one and check everything. I should have capped brood in the new hive locations where the queens were moved to and hopefully there will be capped queen cells in the hives I shook the bees out of. If I get a lot of capped cells, I'm going to take some out and start some nucs and also may try to requeen the old queens that are in the new hive locations.

Won't try to use fume boards for splits anymore. Will maybe do walkaway splits in the future although I think what I did might be better for swarm prevention since the old queen is in a new place and it will give the old hive a brood break for mite control. Did this procedure with two old hives and two new hives. Did not see any formed queen cells while doing this so did it early. Did see a lot queen cups but didn't look close to see if there was anything in there.


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