# Commercial beekeeping and the historical decreasing use of harsh to soft treatments



## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Several Commercial beekeepers have been "beaten" up due to narrow rules on a sister forum. So this thread has been started to give perspective on how treatments have evolved, changed and become more bee friendly. Everyone must realize that before 1984 and 1986 ALL beekeepers were basically "treatment" free...In 1984 tracheal mites invaded-counter measure was menthol crystals.....1986 varroa changed the beekeeping landscape forever......first counter measures-Mite a cure strips (amitraz)(illegal bulk form-tic tac) and Apistan strips (illegal bulk form Maverick)....and the story has evolved with time....So I would like to hear from beekeepers that kept bees through those initial hard times of the early 80's, what they did to keep their bees alive with what treatments, how those treatments evolved with the introduction of each new pest, what chemicals were developed and when they were introduced. I would like to hear from those long time beekeepers what they are doing now for treatments and what they foresee in the future for their distinct individual operations....The historical perspective will be of interest and educational to all. TED


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Ted lots of good questions there.
I hope you get some answers I think there would be lots to learn.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Ted; you can take a pretty good "beat down" here too! Most of us watch both forums and "once flogged, twice wary!"


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Saw how inefective menthol was and never spent the money.
Was treatment free regarding tracheal mites.

For varroa:
1988 Apistan
89 or 90 Miticure
90 Apistan
After Checkmite came out I switched back and forth Apistan and Checkmite.
Never used formic.
Dribble OA some, but not much.

Had CCD like results, which I attributed to ineffective mite treatment materials, apistand and checkmite. But, as likely not applying either in a timely manner. Who knows? In an attempt to not have anything in my hives anywhere near when honey was produced I only treated in the fall after supers came off. Didn't treat in the Spring. I went from 732 cols in May to 432 in Oct to 100 in March. This occured the year prior to Hackenbergs experience w/ what is now called CCD. Haven't fully recovered since for various reasons.

I don't treat for Nosema. Figuring if I can keep the mite levels down, nosema won't be as bad as if I didn't. Which could be folly. I don't know.

Every year I plan to do something different managementwise and treatmentwise. I like what I hear from Roland, here on beesource. Maybe I will dedicate myself to managing a certain number of yards in similar fashion to his methods and see how they do. If nothing else, it'll at least get me out of the chair and into the hives more regularly. Which can't be a bad thing.

I'd be somewhat surprised if very many commercial beekeepers answer this question w/ much detail. Some times silence is best.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

How aggressive are you in removing used comb and getting new in. Since you're using Checkmite, this would be a extremely important.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Used Checkmite. No longer do.

There are no strips in my hives before they go to the orchards. None from the 1st of May until when the last of the honey crop comes off.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

So what "strips" are you referring to?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I remember working in Hawaii in 1984 and over hearing my boss-Alan Luce talking about what they were going to do in California to the bees that had the "problem".....The problem was the tracheal mite I later learned...I wondered at that time whether I was even going to have any of the 500 colonies I had back home from what I was told.......When I arrived back home the mite had not spread into Alabama at the moment. That was to occur three years later. But it did kill the Alabama Queen and package industry that same year with the closing of the Canadian border. This industry has not recovered to this day. When the mites did arrive in 1987, the treatment of choice was menthol. You bought it in 50 pound boxes and would spoon a tablespoons worth into the mesh bags. One bag was placed to the colony. In theory the product worked good. In practice, the bees would goop the mesh bag up with propolis and cut the effectiveness down. So Dr. Shimanuki suggested that I use a small paper sack, like you put candy in..This worked as well as the mesh bags because the bees would chew holes in the little brown paper sack and release the menthol vapors....Even so, bees were still being lost nationwide....The ARC-Y1 stock line was released through the USDA to the breeders of the nation. This lineage along with the Buckfast bees breed in Texas and in Ontario, Canada at that time, in conjunction with the development of treatments, put a stop to the massive die off occuring from 1985 to 1990. I went from 1100 hives of bees to 286 over night due to tracheal mite in 1987. Bees were walking across the ground shimmering and dying. Only with the importation of the resistant stock lines with usage of menthol was this outfit able to rebuild. more later..TED


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Everyone must realize that before 1984 and 1986 ALL beekeepers were basically "treatment" free.


How is this relevant? It's like bragging about how low your air conditioning bill is when you live in Anchorage.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Beekeepers didn't use sulfa drugs and antibiotics before 1984?

deknow


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

can someone post a link to the "other forum"


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> I went from 732 cols in May to 432 in Oct to 100 in March.
> 
> 
> > This is what really scares me and why I would never go treatment free.
> ...


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

"other forum" 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?251-Treatment-Free-Beekeeping


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

frazzledfozzle said:


> How did you survive financially with such a huge loss of hives? frazz


Don't know. Circumstances of life? Survived, but not prospered.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

AMITRAZ-----Amitraz was determined early on to control tracheal mites. Amitraz was determined to be effective against the varroa mite. But a delivery system that was effective did not come into effect until a couple of years after Varroa hit US shores. Varroa arrived in the USA from a pocket importation of queens.... Varroa was first detected around the Orlando, Florida area in 1986. The mite-cure-strip was released around 1988. It was a white strip impregnated with amitraz. It had a hole in the top of the strip that you stuck a nail through and hung the strip between the frames. You used two strips to the hive for control of both mites. Thus the cost of treatment was cheaper by using one product to control both mites. For a time it looked like the industry was saved!!! Bees responded nicely and colony numbers started on an upswing....Then the problems hit......Bees started dying.... Nobody knew what the cause was.....People had used the mite a cure strip and the bees still died. Did the strips kill the bees outright due to misformulation of the product at the factory as supposed by beekeepers? Or did the mites kill the bees also due to a misformulation at the factory causing a weakened strength mite strip? Studies were conducted and no conclusion could be reached. The lawyers had a field day and the company agreed to indemnify all beekeepers that suffered a loss from the products use. The product was pulled from the market never to return in any form or fashion.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> Survived, but not prospered.


I can understand where some of your emotion on this issue comes from.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Sqkcrk

If you switched back and for with Amitraz, Apistan and Checkmite all you combs are a pile of a poison mix. The chemicals build up in wax and you will never get it out. 
The bees have to fight against the resistant mites, have problems with DVW because of the mite and also have to fight other diseases. On top of this the contaminated combs, how can they survive?
It’s like somebody gives you a mixture of different blood thinners just enough to keep you alive.

If I would be in your situation, I would destroy the old combs as soon as possible and I would not even sell the wax. If they made candles from this contaminated wax and burn it in there house there is a big health problem, especially for children. If you burn the combs outside, check the wind direction to be sure not to inhale the poison smoke.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, I guess I have been hoping for an effective mite control method which wouldn't cost alot of money and/or be dangerous to use, like formic acid. Most of the miticides we have had have been easier to afford than the alternative, not treating and having dead hives. But, from what I can see, the newer treatments are expensive.

I'm going to investigate the MAQS, asking friends who have used it this year. And am interested in Hopsgaurd. I'm also dedicated to using Rolands techniques on a certain number of colonies and yards. I'd like to see how well the mechanical manipulations Roland uses work at controling mite levels. If I can replicate his techniques in my own operation.

But, first things first, I gotta get all my machines in working order. And then decide whether to go to SC again soon.

Hives I have seen this last trip, not my own, were way more populous than mine. If I want colonies as strong as the ones I saw, I need to manage my mite levels the way some others do. Using different mite control materials in a rotation, rather than just one kind twice a year. Or, hopefully, Rolands methods will do the job.


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

Gee.I guess some just have all the answers.and the environment is perfectly clean.there is no such thing as gmo or neonics.we all just better stay indoors and go broke.destroying equipment.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Gee Ted I don't really know where to start. I had forgotten it was impacting that early and we entirely missed the whole Aamitraz strip situation (a chemical that we only very briefly experimented with) I would guess Varroa hit us around 91 and we sure weren't prepared. I think we were expecting an impact a little more like tracheal and just assumed there would be some good treatment options. What a jolt when we started finding hives with just a handful of bees late in the summer. Apistan was about the only approved treatment at the time but honey prices were low and times were pretty tough and word had spread pretty quickly in commercial circles that it was foolish to spend the money on Apistan when the active ingredient (fluvalinate) could be administered for a tiny fraction of the cost with a home brew mixture. Guess what we used and the results were nothing short of spectacular. By the next spring we had our hive numbers back and the bees looked great. To make a long story short it eventually became less effective as did it's successor Check Mite. Then a foray into mixing Formic acid, which I felt was just too unsafe to handle. I sort of felt that we "cracked the code" about 6 years ago with a program that begins with a total outfit requeening from breeders that have shown mite resistance (and corresponding brood break) each spring followed 3 weeks later with an oxalic treatment if needed though this spring we decided to forgo that as we weren't finding enough mites to justify it. We follow that with a late summer thymol treatment and in October another oxalic treatment when they are almost totally broodless. I'm not suggesting this is the answer for everyone only that it has worked well for us with our climate and seasons up to this point.
I would like to say, though, that I have no particular bitterness towards anyone in the treatment free forum. I think they are well intentioned though in many cases a bit naive about the challenges that are involved in being treatment free. I do however think it can be counterproductive if many of these beekeeping endeavors end in failure because they simply didn't understand the threat of varroa and just how tenacious this pest is. Then there is AFB...........perhaps another day.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Then count me in the treatment free group. I've been a sideliner since 1975 though I had a few colonies in 1969 but really did not know much about them and did nothing to manage them. I had my first brush with AFB in 1976 when a commercial beekeeper gave me some older equipment. My choice then was to use terramycin for prophylaxis. I had about a dozen colonies in 1988 when tracheal mites wiped me out. I bought some colonies from a guy who just hived swarms and did NO stock selection of any sort, but he had live bees and mine were dead. I requeened them with Buckfast queens and I rebuilt to about 30 colonies. Then in 1993 varroa wiped me out again. I had one live colony in 1994. I split it in march and got 3 very productive colonies that made about 500 pounds of honey. I also caught 2 swarms that year, no idea where they came from, but bait hives brought them in. Then in the fall, I split again and wound up with 11 colonies going into 1995. I started treating with Apistan in the fall of 1994 and continued to treat until the fall of 2004. By that time I had located some feral stock that showed decent tolerance of varroa and I found out about Dann Purvis who had been doing serious selection work with mite tolerant stock. His methods were simple, raise queens and AI them from his best mite tolerant stock, then let the mites kill off all they could. Raise more queens from the survivors. It was highly effective, unfortunately, the stock was relatively poor for honey production. He crossed them with a decent Italian line and selected until they were highly mite tolerant and had mediocre performance. I got some of the gold line queens from him in 2005 and requeened 2/3 of my colonies. I kept the best of the feral mite tolerant colonies I already had. Today my bees are roughly 60% descended from the feral lines and 40% from the Purvis queens. I have not treated any colonies since 2005. They survive just fine on their own. Do they produce honey? Yes, my best colony made 5 full shallow supers of decent honey this year. My average colonies made between 80 and 100 pounds. Are they infested with varroa mites? Could be, but I can't find them. I checked last week and even an alcohol roll did not turn up any mites. There is still a palm of your hand sized patch of brood in most colonies so it is possible there are varroa in the cells. But the brood is hatching healthy so it must not be much. I have my colonies on small cell and use 11 frames in the brood nest. I don't know if this impacts the mites and really don't care. What matters is that my bees are alive and treatment free and they make a good crop of honey every year.

DarJones


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I would like to reply to Axtmann,
I do not know how you arrive at your conclusions. I will however tell you about a study our Provincial Bee lab did. It was on the levels of Apistan, checkmite and amitraz in hives, brood chamber comb to be exact. The study gathered 3-5 samples from many apiaries in Manitoba and Ontario who wished to partake in the study. (many of the keepers did) Comb, newer, culled, dark brood frames from each site were sampled
Checkmite and apistan showed up in the comb. Levels depended on how recently they were used. However, amitraz did not... in any of the comb from any site. Several of the sites had used it either in previous fall or in the spring with testing only a couple of months after spring testing


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

You should rotate comb out regardless if you are treatment free or do treat. Cuts down on all the crap, diseases, viruses, chemicals and contaiminents brought in from the enviroment from honey bee foraging. In Europe they rotate combs on a more frequent basis. We incorporated this into our operation about ten years ago. TED


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

as do we Ted. Have a couple of pallets of comb to send out...from this year alone. It makes good sense to give clean healthy comb to where the brood and food is


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What is your comb rotation schedule like? One comb per brood box each year? Or what?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I do two per brood box per year. Older gets rotated up above.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks Sol, but I was hoping to hear from someone w/ more hives than I have, not fewer. But, you may be doing the same as Ted does. Ya neva know.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Mark, it is usually anywhere from one to three combs rotated out per hive. I know you are thinking how are we doing this....Well, we sell nucs and most of our combs are below a certain age now. So the brood frames that we make up the nucs with are replaced with either fresh frames of foundation or newly drawn honey production comb from the previous season. Since we sell four frame nucs. It does not take long to go through the outfit. 2000 hives=2000 to 4000 frames of foundation and new frames..... I also cull old drone comb when ever. Bees seem to keep a certain amount of drone cells around anyway. Mark, swapping out old comb with fresh foundation does help the health of your colonies and increases production/ If Parker is doing this on a regular basis, then he is to be commended .EVERYBODY should rotate out old combs on a scheduled basis. TED


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

IN 1986 beekeeping was hit by an asteroid called varroa. This collision between a new invasive species and our bees, that had never seen such a critter, change the dynamics of the beekeeping industry forever. Everybody knows the story, as we have all been part of it since then. One of the best mite controls ever formulated came out of desperation by a devastated industry...I know of beekeepers that lost their entire operations of thousands of colonies within a matter of weeks, usually in the months of June and July due to varroa mite infestations...The only thing that stabilized the situation and stopped the die offs was the introduction of APISTAN.....It, as all know, is an impregnated strip with ten percent Fluvaliunate. This is a pyretherin, though mass produced in a lab. Most pyretherins are derived from Chrysanthemums. Good old christmas "MUMS" Kenya supplies most of the worlds pyretherin production from farm grown Mums....Pyretherins are considered to be the safest insecticide around food production facilities because they are biodegradable. The chemical disintegrates in sunlight and air. It affects the varroa mite's nervous system. While introduced back in the mid 1980's, Vita continues to manufacture this product. It has had a long and successful track record. I have never heard of any beekeepers dying from the handling of this product... Thus even today, with apistan resistant mites out there, the product has a place in IPM management for use on rotational 3-4 year basis with soft chemicals. Resistant mites though, brought in even more changes in the industry. TED


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Sounds like you got a magazine article going here Ted, or at least copying from one. Well done.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I do not need a magazine. I was there, I lived it. My mother was married to a well known honeybee scientist, the expert on bee diseases at the time. So I had the inside scoop on what was happening. And Because of that connection I also met a who's who of beekeeping. I hope, Parker, you keep bees for almost forty years in your beekeeping career also. You will live through who knows what sort of unforeseen honeybee problems and meet who know's who along the way. TED


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

We do two frames per brood box per year. In the first few years after buying these hives, it has been a bit higher to get rid of the dark comb. And even though i try not to extract from brood frames, (dang canola makes it hard to follow though), I find myself culling frames during extraction as well. 

Ted, I am not sure I would have had the gumtion to make the transition from pre varroa to living through it. Kudos to those of you who persevered through it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

honeyshack said:


> Ted, I am not sure I would have had the gumtion to make the transition from pre varroa to living through it. Kudos to those of you who persevered through it.


I don't know that it is gumption. For me it is a matter of, this is what I want to do for a living and what else am I going to do. We are still in the process of living thru it.

Maybe Ted was going to get to this, but just in case I will mention here. During the time of the Treatment Era beekeepers of size have tried the Treatment Free Method and found themselves nearly bankrupt. 

Michael Palmer and Kirk Webster(were he a Poster here) could tell you their stories. Kirks' has beern documented in ABJ. I think it is fair to say that Michaels' experience has brought him to raising queens and nucs as a bigger part of his income stream.

I seem to notice, amongst my commercial friends, that those who have strong productive hives are the ones who have what some would consider an intensive work ethic. Whether, like Roland, they are into all of their hives every 14 days smushing drone brood or they are constantly hitting their hives w/ a rotation of mite treatments, soft and hard, when no honey supers are present, it is the ones who pay alot of attention to their hives who are keeping strong colonies and making crops of honey, often while pollinating two or three different crops.

I guess when I get tired of getting by I will become more like them. Perhaps. I still believe it comes down to personal style and abilities, both mental and physical.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

in our case we are a fourth generation operation. I have never had a real job, the bees have always paid the bills. Since the great majority of posters on here have never had the financial pressures of actually making a living doing this it's difficult for them to understand the context for the treatment decisions that you are forced to make. Many operations went under because of the decisions that they made or perhaps in this case decisions that they didn't make. For most folks on here bees are an interesting hobby or perhaps even a sideline operation in which black ink on the bottom line is a luxury and not an absolute requirement. For commercials, bees are production units first and natures amazing little insects second. I get a little frustrated on here at times when I hear condescending phrases pointed at us like "dumping chemicals in hives", or "feedlot beekeeping", or "commercial genetics" or lectured to about being irresponsible by doing the things we do by folks with a couple of hives in their back yards. I don't mean to disparage anyone with these statements only to point out that you have never walked in my boots. On the other side of the coin, though, I think we as commercials must be responsible for the purity of the products that we produce, that is the challenge that we face and the fine line that we must walk.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> I guess when I get tired of getting by I will become more like them. Perhaps. I still believe it comes down to personal style and abilities, both mental and physical.


Perhaps when you start spending less time on Beesource? :lpf:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, especially that. (insert "BUSTED" icon)


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Everyone must realize that before 1984 and 1986 ALL beekeepers were basically "treatment" free...


Ted, I asked for some clarification on this earlier....before 1984, were most beekeepers not using TM or sulfa at least occasionally?

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If I may, yes, of course, Sulfathiazole and TM, in that order, were used by beekeepers before 1984. Whether most were or not is unknown and debatable, I guess. How would one know to any level of accuracy w/out records? As wisespread common use goes, I think that would not be too far off.

It is also true, historically speaking, that Sulfer was used in the harvesting of honey and wax from beehives. And smoke has been used to work bees since before written historical record. So, assuming all, if not the majority of beekeepers, use smoke, none of us are, or have ever been, Treatment Free, if we want to stretch the definition.

But deknoiw, to your question, the short answer is Yes. I believe that Ted is refering to as opposed to what is in common use today.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

....yes, of course I knew that. So, Ted's statement (that "all beekeepers were basically treatment free") is not quite correct.

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Relatively speaking, if you want to be technical, yes, not quite correct. Otherwise, compared to what we were faced w/ after 1984, technically, he is quite correct.

Would you have rather he had written "Compared to what is common today, before 1984 beekeepers didn't use pesticides of any kind in their hives."?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Ok, so can we go with "the treatment free bees were oftentimes treated with sulfa and/or TM"?

...and then there is fumidil, correct?

deknow

I don't want to hijack the thread, I just don't think Ted's statement is accurate...I already asked about it once hoping he would correct himself.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> Ok, so can we go with "the treatment free bees were oftentimes treated with sulfa and/or TM"?
> 
> ...and then there is fumidil, correct?
> 
> ...


Okay. I'm sure he knows your opinion and desires.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Mark and Dean, we know it's not accurate, Ted has said the same things many times before. He was basically treatment free, you know except for that antibiotic he treated with, you know, just that, but that doesn't count.

My point was that if there's nothing to treat, then not treating is not a thing. But of course, the above completely nullifies that assertion because there was something to treat, and was treated.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

in our case we are a fourth generation operation. I have never had a real job, the bees have always paid the bills. 

Jim,

I think your perspective is important and factual. I'm sure that all commercial operations back in the 80's and those now, have no real passion to medicate, just for the sake of medicating.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

I started keeping hives with my brothers in the early 80's and have been on my own since 94. Between 94 and 2000 winter losses avg. 15%. Since then they have slowly climbed to where the last 4 winters it has avg. 75%. I've used apistan early on then checkmite 2003-05 but most years it was formic acid.
This spring and fall I used apivar. I also was ruthless culling any comb from deadouts that even looked old or had any area of cells that were unusable. I gave up on getting a honey crop and instead split everything into nucs with cells and then split them again in july. With some nucs from a neighbor I went from 26 hives to 200 going into winter.
Varroa and nosema levels were at or near 0 at the end of sept. 
I may not be treatment free but I environmentaly conscience.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Dean,Were you around in the late 1970's when Sulfa was pulled from the market??? I know Parker was not. Compared to what has happened since 1986, I consider the use of antibiotics in the form of dusting the least of my worries. So from your perspective, yes beekeepers used antibiotics. Yes, the use was widespread as a standard management practice back before 1986. Nobody then or today likes burning beehives. That was ALL we had to worry about-prevention of AFB....But from the point of using miticides-we were treatment free. TED


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

So, what you're saying is before there were mites, you used no miticides?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Dean, for you to assume that all of us were running around dusting all the time or feeding fumidil in syrup before 1986 is a fallacy. I have never used fumidil-O.K. Yet from USDA testing last year, I have no nosema either. The Normans never used TM for many years untill a hobbyist moved in that had AFB. Thus they were forced to dust as a preventative. TED


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Parker, THERE WERE NO MITES TO TREAT. THERE WERE NO MITICIDES EITHER. Bees were mite free before 1986 varroa and 1984 tracheal infestations. TED


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Would I also be correct in assuming that if there were no American Foul Brood that you would also not have treated for that either?

In summary, am I correct in assuming that what you mean when you say 'we were all treatment free back then' you really mean 'we were treatment-free because there was in fact nothing to treat except for the things we treated for'?

I'm just checking for a logical progression here.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Your questions seem sarcastic Sol. Or are you sincere in your asking? W/ Teds' statements and your questions, yours and Deans', it seems to me you know and understand what Ted is saying and has said.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

O.K. let us split hairs....You claim to be treatment free because you do not have any problems bothering your bees, no mites, no AFB, no nosema, no viruses, no beetles, no brainer-no treatments.... I am stating a fact that we were treatment (miticide) free because we did not have any problems bothering our bees back in the day, except the possible threat of AFB. TED


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Several Commercial beekeepers have been "beaten" up due to narrow rules on a sister forum.


They've followed you to this forum....and the beatings continue.....
Kinda makes you wonder why you bother posting in the first place...doesn't it?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Turn about is fair trade. Maybe.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> Your questions seem sarcastic Sol. Or are you sincere in your asking?


Sarcasm would be saying "hey, that's a reliable truck you got there Mark" when we all know it's in the shop. So no, it's not sarcasm. They're questions with a point which I'll get to in a minute.



sqkcrk said:


> it seems to me you know and understand what Ted is saying and has said.


Exactly. Ted has said all this before. He has claimed he was treatment free back in the day, but that claim is objectively false for two main reasons.

1: He wasn't actually treatment free because he actually did treat. What he was was miticide free...
2: Which is meaningless because there were no mites.

His recycled claim that he was treatment free back in the day is objectively false, and if it were true, it would be objectively meaningless. He doesn't seem to notice the contradiction.

If he wanted to actually discuss the elimination of harsh chemicals, I wouldn't have any input at all, but he keeps making the claim that "Everyone must realize that before 1984 and 1986 ALL beekeepers were basically "treatment" free." It's objectively false. I don't want to use the L word because posts like that seem to get deleted, but it's false. It deserves to be pointed out since it's posted in the inaugural post of the thread.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I believe that his objective is to explore the history of treating for mites in attempting to survive as a commercial beekeeper w/ the goal and realization of the use of softer treatment materials. Barring what some do on a commercial level, were we all able to keep bees the way you and Dean seem to and do it at a Commercial level, it would be uneconomical not to. Who wants to spend money needlessly? So, I would like to see where Ted is headed w/ this Thread.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

not to flip too many variables into the discussion, but we did have Braula Coeca and pseudoscorpions "back in the day".

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/braula.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscorpion

But arguably there was never a need to treat for either.

DarJones


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

beemandan said:


> ....and the beatings continue....


And for EXACTLY the same reason.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

Sol i'm sure it has been posted some where but i was just wondering how many hives you run? And what you do with them (make honey, sell bees, pollination)
thanks. Hope this isn't off topic just trying to get a feel for your operation.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> And for EXACTLY the same reason.


Thanks for protecting us!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I really think this has gotten a little petty. You guys made your point, yes beekeepers did some treating for other things pre-varroa, so what? Why not move on to the real theme of this thread...how would any of you reacted to the impact varroa would have had on your livelihood? Sure we are all wiser with the perspective of time, we have more information and more tools at our disposal but at least try to imagine what coarse of action you might have chosen.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Mark, has a pretty good idea where I am going with this thread.....CHEMICAL X--- In the year of 1997 beekeepers along the coastal regions of started noticing a strange black beetle. Even entomologist had a hard time IDing the creature. Some say it was blown in by a hurricane, like the cattle egret was from Africa. Most likely the Hive Beetle had arrived in a load of citrus from South Africa into the port of Charleston, South Carolina. In the previous three years, varroa had become in stasis with the bees. The bees were coping with large mite loads. But the beetle, with its fungus, viruses, and bacteria, threw that balance out of whack....Colony die offs, collapsed outfits, slimed hives became the norm.....Enter the Weslaco Bee lab to the rescue. This is a very good lab for practical applied science. They think up a concept, develop it, and test the idea on a practical usage for beekeepers. Chemical X is what they called the stuff when they talked about the product before release to beekeepers at the National meetings. Chemical X based on all the graphs shown at these meetings worked wonders on the Hive Beetle and Varroa. But Chemical X had one major draw back. It was an organophosphate!! Thus the checkmite strip entered the industry for use. By the time the beetle entered the state of Alabama around 2002, the strip was already antiquated. The beetle already was showing resistance to the strip. We would see beetles crawling on the strip with no effects to the beetles. We placed a half a strip in corragated traps, place them on the back of the bottom board and prayed..Varroa, the strip did control very well...The venerable old bee master George Imirie refused to use checkmite-"due to unforeseen consequences in the hive". Mr. Imirie prefered to rotate out with another product that was new with much promise at that time along with Apistan for mite control. Mr. Imirie had a hand in the develpment of the Integrated Pest Managment concept that beekeepers use today. Just as George had foreseen, beekeepers that used checkmite started to notice problems. Queenlessness, drone layers, mismatings, and later it was discovered-sterile drones. I had used checkmite because that was the only way I could pollinate Almonds in California. I had to, by California regulations, enter the state pretreated, with strips present in the colonies at the border crossings. And I had used checkmite as stated earlier. Do I use checkmite now..That answer is a big NO...Coumophous was the harshest substance ever contrived for pest control by the beekeeping industry for the beekeeping industry. Many lessons have been learned since the intoduction of organophosphates into our industry. We walked up to the precipice and luckily backed away with the coming of Botanicals for mite control. TED


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Check Mite is a bad joke played on the beekeeping industry. Then to sell that product without specific labeling warning that it should never be used in cell builders is nothing short of a crime. We drank that kool-aid but only for a short time... and to think they still sell that stuff.


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

Yep, used it all along the way. Learned alot about when, where, and why things work the way they do. We will probably not see another chemical that is effective and safe as fluvavenate was in the early days. You could almost spill a quart of Mavrik on a hive and it would probably live. Not so with any of the new chemicals, even powdered sugar used at 800 times the effective dose would probably smother a hive. Margin for error is very thin now. Weather, temp, and timing plays a huge role in how effective, or safe, a mite treatmet is today. 

I am commercial all the way. No one would be any happier about not needing "MITE" treatments than the commercial beekeepers. I think mites consume a major portion of my labor bill. I am always looking to skip a treatment, reduse a dosage, or increase the effectiveness without harming the bees or the comb. 

AFB and EFB are basically the same issue as they have been give or take. It's a small managable problem in comparison to mites.

Solomon and Deknow, this is a thread a bout mites and mite treatments. You KNOW it's about mites and treatments and improving safer treatments. Your being off topic is actually stopping beekeepers from learning how to reduce treatments. People have come up with interesting ways to limit mites and I want to read about them. You two have been choking this helpful discusion instead of adding your inovations to it. Your comments about mites are valuable please share them. If you want to talk about reducing or eliminating AFB treatments start a new thread.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

ryan said:


> Solomon and Deknow, this is a thread a bout mites and mite treatments. You KNOW it's about mites and treatments and improving safer treatments. Your being off topic is actually stopping beekeepers from learning how to reduce treatments. People have come up with interesting ways to limit mites and I want to read about them. You two have been choking this helpful discusion instead of adding your inovations to it. Your comments about mites are valuable please share them.


Thank you Ryan. I am enjoying the lessons learned by those with many years, even generations of experience.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

The title of the thread is about hard and soft treatments...nothing about mites.
the first post by Ted claimed that before 1984 all beekeepers were basically treatment free.
I asked politely for clarification from Ted on this...and was ignored....so I waited a couple of days and asked again.
I've tried to stay out of this...yet you drag me in....criticizing me for pointing out that Ted made a misstatement.....even you refer to antibiotics as a treatment....so why am I the bad Guy for correcting a false or mistaken claim? Bees that are treated with TM, sulfa, or fumidil are simply not treatment free.

Deknow


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

As a beekeeper from New Zealand I can say that pre varroa we were completely treatment free, the only disease we had to contend with was AFB it's illegal to treat AFB in NZ the only option is to burn, so there were no chemicals in our hives apart from the ones the bees brought in themselves.

With AFB you can get by without treatments and cope with losing a few hives if you are really unlucky.
With mites if you don't treat you lose your bees and your business.

We have had varroa in our hives since around December 2006, varroa has been in NZ since 2000 some beekeepers in the North Island of NZ have just started reporting resistance to apistan, at this stage we are treating with Bayvarol in the Autumn and Apivar in Spring we will also try dribbling Oxalic acid in the winter.

This thread is very important and very useful for beekeepers like us because we can learn from what you guys have experienced and how you have coped so please dont leave the thread because of a couple pedantic people

Thankfully we dont have EFB or small hive beetle ( yet)

frazz


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> O.K. let us split hairs....You claim to be treatment free because you do not have any problems bothering your bees, no mites, no AFB, no nosema, no viruses, no beetles, no brainer-no treatments.... I am stating a fact that we were treatment (miticide) free because we did not have any problems bothering our bees back in the day, except the possible threat of AFB. TED


Certainly the 1974 copy of abcxyz discusses fumadil....how wide spread was its use?


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

Hi again. Sorry Deknow, but I didn't mention the "a" word. Neither did Ted or anyone else...until your post. 

The entire first post was about mites and the things used to kill them. It's all about mites and you know it. And I know that you know it. The only bad guy is the person who gets in my way while I try to learn and share. The choice is yours. Tell me about mitigating mite damage or start a new thread. We all have lots to offer about non-treatment of AFB and some thoughts about Fumadil. One thread at a time please. 

Mites


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

this thread is crazy!!!! this is the exact reason i do not contribute to certain threads. dont like to make pointless arguements about subjects that people dont know what they are talking half the time. every operation has different situations


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I'm really trying not to get drawn into this...I was just trying to clarify things.



ryan said:


> Hi again. Sorry Deknow, but I didn't mention the "a" word. Neither did Ted or anyone else...until your post.


From Post Number 64:


ryan said:


> If you want to talk about reducing or eliminating AFB treatments start a new thread.


...certainly seems like you mentioned the "a" word...and even called the antibiotics used against them "AFB treatments"....this is the quote I was referring to. AFB treatments (antibiotics, sulfa) being used on "basically treatment free bees".

Is it really productive to have a discussion when participants don't even know what they themselves post?


> ...The only bad guy is the person who gets in my way while I try to learn and share. The choice is yours. Tell me about mitigating mite damage or start a new thread. We all have lots to offer about non-treatment of AFB and some thoughts about Fumadil. One thread at a time please.
> Mites


Are you serious?

deknow


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

In the beginning this thread was interesting. Now it has derailed.
Lets get back on topic

Just a reminder

This topic is about pre varroa and trachea and the things commercial beekeepers have done to survive. If you did not get it by the title, the first post by the O/P pretty much summed it up.
Unless you have something usefull to add to this thread, please abstain from splitting hairs, derailing the topic being a general pain in the donkey's backside.

Good grief wasted time reading and skimming 8 pages, 5 with mostly rhetoric

Parker, you are a mod in your own forum which you set the rules to, and you enforce with an iron hand. Conscience would dictate you should follow your own rules elsewhere. Do not derail a good topic just cause you do not agree with it

Deknow...quit splitting hairs to set your own adgenda...start your own thread please or get back on topic


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

I did not. Your quote doesn't show me saying anything like what you claim. 

And yes I am serious, but today I want to talk about mites.

Knock it off.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I haven't said anything since post #58. So as somebody said, I made my point, and if you could lay off me, that'd be fine.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> Certainly the 1974 copy of abcxyz discusses fumadil....how wide spread was its use?


I don't know historically how widespread fumadil use was. Certainly it was available and used by beekeepers. I have never used it. Not for any altruistic reason, just never felt the need. That may change if Nosema posses a bigger problem and indicators are that fumadil use is beneficial.

I do believe that there is a rise in fumadil use, what w/ the introduction of Nosema cerana and the presence of Nosema apis apparently in more abundance.

I know beekeepers who don't use fumadil, myself and others, and those who buy it by the case and others who have it added to their protien patty formula. All of those who I know use it to address high Nosema counts in hopes of mantaining healthier bees.


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

We did a lot of O acid this year. In April we killed queens and put in a cell. 16-18 days after queen kill or 14-16 days after cells went in the hive we sprayed O acid. The idea is the hives are almost broodless at this point. Results were pretty good but mite kill varied a bit more than I would have liked. Most of my acid treatments have been done in the fall when the bees are not all that active and most are in the hive when we spray. I hope for better results if we spray early in the morning while most of the bees are home. 

This was the only spring treatment for most of my hives. It worked good enough to get me through to the honey crop and the next treatment. But, my mite levels were higher earlier than the past years. Although I'm not sure the bees were any worse for wear. I tried Hivestan in May the past 2 years. That worked ok for me but you really have to have a plan. You don't want your bees to be confined to the hive for very long with that stuff. Not a cold weather treatment IMO.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Were we having an interchange between beekeepers of equal size and years of experience the differences in philosophies could more easily be discussed and ideas exchanged.

Sol and Dean don't know what they would have done to keep their livelihood viable being faced w/ a new devistating pest, because they didn't own bees in 1984 and didn't depend on them for their living.

This is not a critisism, just an observation.

I see nothing wrong w/ someone asking for clarification. It can be educational. It can be an attempt to score points too. I chose to believe that the questions posed in this Thread are asked to clarify and learn from.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Sol, Dean, We will discuss non chemical treatments for AFB on another thread. I know of a few simple ways to handle light to moderate AFB that have never been mentioned on this forum that might be of help to the "treatment" free crowd. NO, it does not involve gas and a match...TED


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Were we having an interchange between beekeepers of equal size and years of experience the differences in philosophies could more easily be discussed and ideas exchanged.


I don't agree that that is the issue, but I'm glad to see some attempt to get past it, whatever it is...I appreciate it Mark, and I appreciate you answering my question about fumidil...I was not keeping bees in 1984.


> Sol and Dean don't know what they would have done to keep their livelihood viable being faced w/ a new devistating pest, because they didn't own bees in 1984 and didn't depend on them for their living.


It takes all kinds of businesses to make up an industry...large and small. I will say that Ramona and I were pure hobbyists (albeit enthusiastic hobbyists)....until we encountered a need/opportunity. to market exceptional honey produced with exceptionally clean practices. At the time, there seemed to be no one valuing such honey above commodity prices.
The honey we started with was from Dee Lusby...and eventually added Kirk Webster as a supplier. Both are small, lean commercial operations....Dee never treated for mites, and Kirk stopped some years ago.
We intentionally structured our business such that we are not reliant on our own crop while we do the breeding and management refinements we need to do in order to get a crop without treating or feeding. We have spent some money...we have lost some bees...there are things we could have done differently (but we wouldn't know what we know if we had)...but we have bees...we've been breeding bees, and we've been able to keep bees alive through the winter, rear queens, and even get a small crop without treating and without feeding (this year we are feeding some weaker hives and nucs...with honey, not sugar or hfcs). I don't think there is anything I need to apologize for in this regard, the beekeeping is supported by our educational programs (conference, classes, hands on queen rearing classes), and by selling honey from 2 beekeepers who have refined their genetics and management to the point where there are no treatments (mite or otherwise) used. Kirk will sometimes feed the nucs, but his production colonies are not fed....Dee only feeds her own honey back, and of course no treatments. I'll also mention that we clearly identify the source of the honey....the producer's name is in larger print on our label than our company name is.
Our business allows us and our suppliers to make our livings keeping bees without treatments (we pay significantly higher by the barrel than the prices discussed on beesource). I do depend on treatment free bees for my living.
None of this is to say that I think everyone should be treatment free....I understand the reasons for using treatments, and I understand that people's livings (and the livings of the people/families on their payroll) are on the line.



> I see nothing wrong w/ someone asking for clarification. It can be educational. It can be an attempt to score points too. I chose to believe that the questions posed in this Thread are asked to clarify and learn from.


I can only speak for myself in that I was only looking for clarification. Ted started this thread in part to document the historical record....I see no reason why a misstatement can't be questioned....I have full confidence that Ted is capable of using the term "miticide" when referring specifically to treatments for mites.

deknow


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Nice post Dean, and for those of us who arent real familiar with what your operation is all about I think we all can benefit from this background. Though we are on opposite ends of the beekeeping spectrum neither I or anyone else should criticize you for what you do and the passion you have for treatment free beekeeping. Also thanks for your concession that everyone cant be like you, the beekeeping industry certainly cant be defined by one type of operation. I would (and forgive me Ted if I'm getting too far off topic) like to ask you more about your decision to only sell honey from treatment free operations. Have you ever done any testing of the honey you sell to assure that your treatment free products are in fact pure from any local contaminants or is it just an assumption that a treatment free product is surely better than honey from any source who has ever done any type of treatment? I would concede that the number of compounds and chemicals that could be found might be endless, so let me be more specific by citing our particular management in the past 12 months, would a Thymol treatment in Sept. 2010 and an Oxalic treatment a month later both done while our extracting supers (that have never been exposed to chemicals or compounds or even feeds of any type) were stored away in the warehouse make the honey extracted in the summer of 2011 a less pure product than what you are selling? Or do your treatment free ideas relate more to developing bees that are better able to deal with varroa, or is it some of each? Whatever the case, I would just like to make my case that I am sure we arent the only beekeepers that take pride not only in their bees but also in the end products. Also, thanks for not using the term commercial genetics as it always seems to hint that once someone chooses to make their living doing something and you reach some arbitrary size threshold that your breeding stock must surely be bad. In any case dont take the tone of this post to be something that it isnt as these are things I am curious about.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

He has written that honey samples have been sent to PA for Maryanne Frazier to have tested thru a program set up by Penn State. One sends a sample and a check and gets results on the presence or absence of something like 170 chemical compounds. They use the chemical nameas and not the Brand names because the chemicals sometimes go by differentr Brand names or are parts of some different Brand name mixtures.

I don't think any samples that have gone thru this analysis have been found to be chemical free. Bees pickup all sorts of stuff from the environment in which they forage, which is generally polluted to a greater or lesser degree.

If a beekeeper uses no miticides, antibiotics or other chemicals in their hives, those should not show up in the analysis, but sometimes they do from other sources or from old comb previously used in hives that were treated w/ miticides and other stuff.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

We have had honey tested for sugar adulteration.
Although we've not had sees honey tested for pesticides, I do know someone that did have the Penn state tests.run on 4 samples.of dees honey. The limit of detection is 1ppb. 3 of the 4 found everything below the LOD....the 4th found 1ppb coumaphos.

Deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Which shows presence, but only at a level 99% below tolerance levels. If I stated that correctly. Tolerance being 100ppb, I believe. Though Deans' criteria is 0 tolerance, I believe. Right Dean?

The sample results which Dean writes of shows how some chemical compounds can appear in honey samples even when not used by the beekeeper.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

All this is intertwined. WE all certainly need to protect the wholesumness of honey. What we do not want or need is a pesticide scare. Apple juice and Arsenic is the current scare..... Europe had for decades used liquid Formic acid for control of Varroa mites before the US infestation. It worked well for them. When the first varroa was found around the Orlando Florida area, it was also found that beekeepers were treating with liquid formic acid and wearing gas masks. Thus the health issue was raised by the FDA about the dangers to beekeepers...And several beekeepers did end up on oxygen tanks from scarring of their lungs from formic usage in liquid form. Thus the delay for many years before approval was granted for formic use for mite control in honeybees. In the late 1990's, DRs. Feldhaufer, Kochunsky, Shimanuki and Pettis formulated formic into a gel, concocted the delivery system and postulated the treatment time. DR. Frank Eischen of the Weslaco lab did the initial testing....The testing was done in Mexico, across the border from the lab. There was an ongoing bee research project going on in Northern Mexico and the FDA was still raising red flags about formic usage. The delivery system was simple. Cut a slit in the plastic bag and place on the top bars. The formic would slowly vaporize. Remove after the recommended time elapsed. Well like all new products, this one, APICURE, had a few problems and was removed from the market until a better delivery system was developed. ALL the current Formic products on the market are a direct descendent of a brain child called Apicure and a few researchers that were willing to bend the rules to save beekeeping. TED


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I moved the honey testing posts to the honey forum.


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## whix (Feb 3, 2002)

I am not a commercial beekeeper but I have kept bees since 1981, long before the mites came to my area. I used to order packages from the southern states until tracheal mites where found there and they closed the border in the early 80's. Beekeeping was easy then, I had almost no winter losses for years until varroa mites came. Ontario bred queens resistant to tracheal mites so they have never really been a problem to me.
In 1993 I found a dead bee with a mite on it and took it to the bee supply store to ask if it was varroa. No one was sure. I asked at our bee club and most said they had never seen it, didn't have it, and suggested it was caused by PPB (piss poor beekeeping). I treated with the only thing available, Apistan. It worked like a charm. Of those at the club who didn't treat, after 3 years they lost all their bees. Mites were bad then and everybody was losing colonies or getting wiped out.
After the non-treating beekeepers gave up, the mites slowed down a little. We heard about the problem of Apistan resistance in the States and formic acid pads were suggested as an IPM strategy. It was recommended to use formic acid pads in the spring and Apistan in the fall. I killed hives with formic acid when the colonies weren't strong enough to handle the dosage and had others abscond. They were temperature sensitive and the instructions hadn't been completely figured out. By the time it was warm enough in the spring to use the pads it was time to super so I couldn't treat. The hives would build up fine, produce a crop and crash in September. I was wiped out. Built up again, they figured out the formic acid instructions, and things were good, only to have Apistan resistance show up. You only found out it didn't work when it was too late in the fall to do anything about it. Then Checkmite was suggested as an alternative for Apistan. From what I had heard, that stuff was more dangerous to me than the bees so I didn't use it. I tried SBB, drone trapping with a shallow frame in a deep super. It was suggested to pull honey by Sept 1st and treat but that just lost the fall crop and the bees were honey bound and had no room to lay. That year I lost half of my colonies, split everything and built the number of hives back up again. The next year I was wiped out again. I sat out for two years and hoped someone would figure out how to keep bees alive. Started again and used formic acid in the spring, Apistan in the fall and a follow up with Oxalic acid. Things were good again although I had losses every winter.
A commercial beekeeper put 20 nucs within 100 feet of my yard and I got AFB. I burned the infected colonies and treated with TM in the spring and fall for a few years. Formic acid pads were discontinued so I switched to Apivar. The new MAQS are not registered for use or sale in Canada so I used Apivar both spring and fall with a follow up with oxalic acid. Things are good again but I am concerned about using Apivar in the spring and fall. Next year I will make my own formic acid pads for the spring.

Maybe some of the newer beekeepers forget that there was no internet back then with instant answers for almost everything, and youtube to show you how. I was a book learned beekeeper. I didn't go on the web till 1996 and there wasn't a whole lot of set in stone information. 
Before the mites came, my only concern was swarming


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Thanks for the information Whix. I am in the same boat as you when it comes to the current treatments available. Between the provincial apiarist office and me we have come up with a treatment schedule to reduce the risk of apivar resistance in the short term. I use Apivar in the spring when the temps are not stable, can be used while hives are still wrapped mid to late april is a good time for me to use. It is on for 45 days so the hive is protected from reinfestation during that time like an invisible shield.  that will take me to the end of May or so. By this time the hives are strong and well on their way. Then i took a page from Roland here on beesource and scratched the capped drones throughout the summer. The trick was to keep just enough from a few strong hives just incase of supercedures. Come fall, my levels were between 0 and 2% in the yards. Each yard tested as a group. For fall treatments i used formic and the meat pads. The recommeded dose is 40 ml on the pad and change out the pad every 4-7 days with 3 doses for trachea and 5 for varroa. Very labour intensive...that was the draw back
I have had some issues in the past with trachea and since my levels of varroa were low, I did not do the 5 treatment times. Instead i did 3. I figured with the low counts by Sept 15th, knocking back some mites would be good, but make sure the trachea was taken care of.
Some observations, by day 4 most of the hives 60%+ had removed the meat pad by themselves...industrious little buggers.
Labour intensive

The reason it was advised to me to do it this way was:
The build up in the spring is our critical time. Apivar then will see to it they have a longer protection and then they will be strong for the honey flow. Then use the formic in the fall or OA in the fall as a clean up measure. Cleaning a few mites in the fall is easier on the hive since they are starting to shut down by this time and the winter bees are already in the works.
I have to say, the bees looked better than they have had in a couple of years. This treatment regimen should prolong the Apivar life, so i am told, but only testing will know if it works...before and after. The nice thing about the spring apivar treatment is, if eventually resistance is shown, still time to save the hive with a formic flash before the flow. This will knock back the mites until the fall. 
JMO


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Solomon Parker said:


> So as somebody said, I made my point, and if you could lay off me, that'd be fine.


Off topic! I wanted to reply to this some how. Last night the words did not put together welll
Here goes after a mornings sleep

The mark, the making of a good leader, employer, moderator is a person who will do no less that what he asked of the people around him.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

t:

I'll say it again. I made my point and I quit posting. Lay off me. 

That's what I ask of those around me. Now do the respectful thing and quit harping when someone does what you asked.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

Medhat was also recomending treating with apivar when doing the first hive inspections this spring. I put mine in while feeding patties mid march and the treatment was done for the begining of May when I unwrapped. This knocks the mites back just when brood rearing is really kicking in.


In the November issue of Hivelights the provincial reports show low varroa levels this fall across Canada.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Systemics.....Back when tracheal mite first hit and later when varroa reared its ugly shell, beekeepers came up with the idea of feeding something to their bees that would make them unpalatable to the mites....The first idea that worked was the crisco/sugar grease patty....You would put about a pound of the stuff on a piece of wax paper and place over the topbars of the hive in the brood nest. What happened when the bees consumed the stuff they would get nice and greasy of course. Researchers figured that young tracheal mite could not pass off from bee to bee, as they could not get a grip on the subject so to speak. What really happened as was later learned was the grease masked the smell of the bees and the tracheal mite could not hone in on their intended target to parasitize. Later, when varroa hit, the patty had another ingrediant added-wintergreen oil. This worked well. Made the bees nice and greasy. It caused a break in the brood cycle. Caused Varroa mites to drop. This idea still has merit if a better delivery system could be found. As temperatures warm up in the spring, grease being grease, has a tendency to run. Well, the patty is over the brood nest and you can see what can happen......I used a ton of this stuff in early mite years..... The next systemic was HALLS MENTHOL COUGH DROPS.....Researchers could never prove one way or the other that this worked for tracheal mite control. You would place six drops per hive over the brood nest. BEES LOVE THE STUFF!! So while you thought you were treating your bees for mites, you were actually giving them a treat to eat. I remember those days, six for you stinging devils and one for me, six for you and one for me......Later, we discovered PEPPERMINT CANDY...We would buy this scrap peppermint candy from Bob's candy cane company by the ton box in Georgia. You would liquefy into a syrup and feed your bees with it. It worked well as it controlled both mites because the bees must have been very pepperminty to the discerning palates of the pests. Bees would whiten up the comb, store vast quantities of it for food, and really brood and build up on it. WE fed tons upon tons of the stuff. Maybe 200 tons in ten years.. Sadly, Bobs went south of the border with their production and thus we lost one of the best systemics and bee feeds we ever had. This had merit then and still does today, the feeding of peppermint syrup. Botanical systemics in the future, is where real mite control of the pest will be . Just one last the thought, the red food coloring would give the bees a red rear after they had engorged themselves on peppermint syrup. That was always worth a laugh.. TED


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Haemerrhoids? lol


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

Ted you seem to use a lot of essential oils in your operation would you care to give more info on the subject? what kind of oils, how they are applied, and how often?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

So we as commercial industry started out with menthol-a botanical and we are back to botanicals and natural substances. They have taken the form of thymol, formic acid, and the latest to come on the stage-hopsguard. There will be others as time goes on that will be even softer in their formulation but with a high ablility to impair and kill the mites. There is now no need for extreme harsh substances to control these pest. Substances such as coumophous are hopefully a thing of the past. And there is no need to create more bumps in the road by useage of questionable chemicals such as Filiprinol for the control of beetles..Sure the cassettes work, but the bees and beetles interact and the chemical is spread through out the colony. So this can not be good for short or long term health of the colony. So be very careful when using this form of beetle control. Thus the harshest chemicals used for pest control in the colony have been placed in them for the control of Hive beetle, not varroa. Though coumophos did have a duel usage but was created initially for beetle control......TED


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

The peppermint was peppermint candy that was diluted into syrup. It makes a nice 1part water, 1 part candy spring feed. The wintergreen oil was mixed at a ratio of two cups wintergreen oil and two gallons of canola oil. We then had cut cardboard strips from boxes and soaked them in this mixture. You place one strip per colony. The bees chew up the strip, thus strowing the stuff all around the hive. You must use a sticky board to test the mite fall to make sure you have just the right amount of wintergreen in the mixture.... PLEASE WEAR CHEMICAL GLOVES AND MIX IN WELL VENTILATED PLACES< LIKE OUT DOORS WHEN HANDLING WINTERGREEN as it is dangerous!!! The grease patty mixture had five drops of wintergreen added to it per patty. Currently I use Apiguard, which is a thymol derived gel. As a commercial beekeeper, I buy it by the tub. It takes around thirty to forty of these little blue tubs to treat the bees. I will be rotating out on a yearly basis between Apiguard, Formic, and hopsguard. Thus one substance is used on year, another the next and so forth. TED


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

We only treat once a year-in the fall regardless of what substance we use. The only exceptions were the peppermint and grease patty, that was used in the spring in the past. TED


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Good posts Ted. I'm with you on the Fiprinil "roach hotels". Never could see putting a chemical like that (yes it's a neonic) in a bee hive just because I saw an occasional SHB. Of course in our climate they have never been much more than a minor pest, I know they are much more serious in the southeast. For us it just took a few changes in management to deal with them. don't risk making a minor problem worse is how I looked at it.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Beetles can be a very serious problem in the southeast. We have changed our management where our colonies are not disturbed much during the month of August. This is a peak month for beetles and the more you disturb your colonies during that time frame, it seems the more colonies you loose here in the Southeast..I know beekeepers that put the cassettes with fiprinil in their bees. They keep loosing bees by the hundreds of colonies and blaming it on the beetles. So what is killing them-is it the beetles or the chemical OR did the chemical weaken the colony so the beetles could kill them??? These home remedies I never did use. Like paper plates soaked in maverik. Corrall powder across the top bars....Shop towels soaked in Tic Tac-trade name for Amitraz....Fogging hives with mineral oil...Fiprinil in cassettes for beetle control. Fogging hives with Formic acid...What are these substances applied in an unorthodox way in bulk doing to your bees??? You have to admit beekeepers are an inventive lot. But as a honey producer that has struggled severely in the earlier years when mites first hit to pay the bills, pay the loans and the help, I could not afford the risk of the use of home remedies.... It would take one incident of a chemical find then and now in my honey to push me out of business. Especially since I am a Sioux member and produce a good product for the cooperative. TED


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Ted, I'm sorry I'm not a comercial beek, however I've been following this thread with great interest. I'm fascinated with keeping and if the opportunity came up / if I'm able to build up large enough I'd love to be commercial. That being said and knowing that I'm very small (only 3 hives) have you or anyone else read any of this info? http://www.beeworks.com/informationcentre/small_hive_beetle.html For beetle control some sort of external trap may work well and keep any kind of chemicals out of the hive. This one however is not a chemical at all. Any thoughts? Being from Pa we don't have nearly as much of a problem with beetles as down south, but I did have to remove and freeze some frames this year to save the hive from SHB.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Thanks delber, I had heard of such a trap and know of people using similar devices with good results. I have looked at the standard japanese beetle garden trap (fancy glass jar-one way in). I know Dr. Russell has a bucket trap he uses. I will bait up some of the jap beetle traps with the bait formula that is on the site you recommended and let you know how it works this spring. Mites I have under control but the beetle is a constant aggrevation.. TED


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

ted one treatment a year is enough to keep the mites down in your area? Have you tried hope guard yet any thoughts? this is a very good thread!


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

One treatment a year does a good job keeping the mites under control in my area. Swarm, I have not tried hopsguard but plan on using it the coming season. I will apply hopsguard when I resuper the bees at the end of June. This will knock the peak in population of mites off. Honeybees peak in population in June. Varroa mite peaks in population in July. You want to nip the mites in the cell so to speak. Hops guard is safe to use during the honeyflow I have been told. These effective, natural, safe, botanical miticides will put the bee back in beekeeping. TED


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> We only treat once a year-in the fall regardless of what substance we use. The only exceptions were the peppermint and grease patty, that was used in the spring in the past. TED


Are the peppermint grease patties okay to be used while supers are on the hive? What is the correct timing in Spring (March/April)?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Do not use "aromatics" such as peppermint, wintergreen, thymol while supers are on bees. Your honey will be rather minty........Being that beekeepers are an inventive lot, many mechanical methods of varroa control have been tried. Most are labor intensive but if you have a small number of colonies you can use them....One, use of foundation that is drone cell size that the bee draw out into drone comb works as a varroa trap. You remove the drone comb on a periodic basis, place it in the freezer. Then remove the drone comb from the freezer and place the drone comb back in the hive for the bees to clean up the mess and go again......Some methods that are being discussed even now as I write this on another forum are labor intensive and of questionable control. Even though there are university studies stating that varroa control is not achieved, the proponents claim fraudulent test result and swear by the use of small cell foundation in their beehives. This method does seem to work in Worcestor county, Massachusetts, Fayetteville, Arkansas where the beekeepers have small numbers of colonies and plenty of time to tinker with their bees. And it also works in the high dry deserts of Arizona ,where the bees are of small cell lineage anyway because they are an african derived stock. It is labor intensive to regress bees from large cell to small cell. It takes some skill to do so and most newbie hobbyist do not have the skill set to even attempt regression....It is uneconomic for a large commercial beekeeper to even attempt such a management method with questionable results that will only result in many dollars spent and possible massive colony dieoffs in the end from the lack of treatment. If you have a couple of dozen colonies. If you just like tinkering with bees just for the pleasure of keeping bees. And you have no real goal to produce a monetary gain. And if you are an experimentor by nature, then small cell beekeeping is for you. I had been involved with Bill Gafford years ago regressing Caucasian bees. Small cell was a brand new idea. Bill was good friends with the Lusby's. Dee tried to talk me into going small cell. So Bill gave it a try on some of his bees and I assisted.... The results we got were small bees but also numerous small mites. Mite control was not achieved. Bill Gafford was a top notched commercial beekeeper. So from a commercial perspective, small cell is not worth the wax foundation it is printed on......... Call me an old fashioned "traditionalist" if you will. TED


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> The grease patty mixture had five drops of wintergreen added to it per patty. Currently I use Apiguard, which is a thymol derived gel. I will be rotating out on a yearly basis between Apiguard, Formic, and Hopsguard. Thus one substance is used one year, another the next and so forth. TED


I thought I read that the bees build up in June and the varroa in July. So the time to treat with the wintergreen grease patty is in June and the alternating miticides in September, right?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

WRT drone trapping, it definitely would not have worked for the bees in the most recent SC study...after all, the colonies started off with zero drone cells, were inspected once a month for drone cells (the most that was ever found over the month long interval was 25), and the bees in the study never tried to raise drones in any of those drone cells...drone free bees!



Ted Kretschmann said:


> ......Even though there are university studies stating that varroa control is not achieved, the proponents claim fraudulent test result and swear by the use of small cell foundation in their beehives.


...I'm pretty sure no one but you has used the word "fraud"...but yes I agree with the above....there are university studies stating that "varroa control is not achieved", there are serious issues with the studies (especially the most recent of them, which has been under discussion on another thread here, and on Bee-L), and those of us that are experiencing success with small cell comb "swear by it".

I'm also willing to bet you haven't actually read the latest study (link is in the other thread), or you wouldn't be so bold about defending these studies simply because they are "university" studies, done by researchers with excellent track records, and published in Apidology...the flaws are numerous and obvious. Thus far (in bringing my observations up here and on Bee-L, which can sometimes be a hostile environment for such critique), no one has offered any substantive objections to any of them individually, never mind all of them as a whole.



> This method does seem to work in Worcestor county, Massachusetts, Fayetteville, Arkansas where the beekeepers have small numbers of colonies and plenty of time to tinker with their bees.


I beg pardon? I'm not the busiest guy I know, but I don't have a lot of time to "tinker with the bees"...in the early part of the season this year we ran some hands on queen rearing classes at the house, and raised a few hundred queens....I did get to play with the bees in our home (city) yard while this was going on...but otherwise, we do 7 markets a week during the summer (right now we have one market 7 days a week in a giant tent in Downtown Boston...today we had 3 markets going on. We run a conference every summer with speakers from around the world...we have added more days every year so in 2010 it was 6 days long (where it will stay).....You seem to imply that I can spend all my time puttering from hive to hive, which I can't.



> And it also works in the high dry deserts of Arizona ,where the bees are of small cell lineage anyway because they are an african derived stock.


I haven't seen a recent DNA test from Dee's bees, but according to Dr. Erikson, the feral bees in Arizona were "of small cell lineage" at least 3 years _before_ AHB was in Arizona. Once again, the video...


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Some methods that are being discussed even now as I write this on another forum are labor intensive


If you knew how much labor I put into my bees, you would surely claim I was being lazy. Other commercial beekeepers have certainly claimed I was lazy in the past. Some beekeepers using the same and similar methods are quite lazy as well. http://bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm I'm a full time graduate student and research assistant. I don't have nearly enough time to do anything labor intensive.

At any rate, it does work here. I have eleven small cell treatment-free hives. One of my pastors has 7 treatment-free hives, though to be fair, he's not on small cell.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>"tinker with the bees".

I have done a lot less work since I regressed. I don't put foundation in, I don't wire it. I buy PF120s from Mann Lake for more than half my frames and use wood frames with a comb guide for most of the rest. The natural comb is no work at all compared to wiring. The PF120s are even less work. I don't put treatments in. I don't take treatments out. I don't have to buy them, handle them or dispose of them.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

This thread is about commercial beekeeping, and SC is not part of commercial beekeeping. Why is this brought up here Ted?


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> I will be rotating out on a yearly basis between Apiguard, Formic, and hopsguard.


Ted, what's your preferred method of formic application, and what have you found works best in terms of limiting queen losses?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> This thread is about commercial beekeeping, and SC is not part of commercial beekeeping. Why is this brought up here Ted?


If I may, A.Because there is no Forum Restriction saying it can't be discussed and B. He brought it up in an explaination of and an example of history, which is in the title. He's writing about historical practices, including many trials in the efforts to address Varroa. And then the mention of sc use was reacted to by people who use it. Nothing wrong about that, is there?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Mark is correct and I got the reaction I was expecting out of the small cell people. Did I say not to use this method?? Just that 3 university studies, state varroa mite control was not achieved. And yes Dean you are correct, I have not read the other study as it is the parker forum and I have a banned status there and thus an unable to access it to read it. Since you all claim to be lazy beekeepers, then you fit the profile I mentioned for use of small cell. If it works for you-great. But as I mentioned, for someone with a commercial operation, it is not worth the effort nor the time or money to swap over to an unproven practice. Commercial operations are already gambling with their bees with all the varibles that go with commercial beekeeping. Thus there is no sense in to adding to those odds with something that does not work-achieving mite control. I have to go with the three studies against the one that Dean says is for. Since I know something about small cell from working directly with Bill Gafford when he was alive. Also having been there years ago when it was contrived, I listened to the sales pitch over several cups of coffee with the Lusbys years ago. I was unconvinced years ago then and I am now. TED Next-resistant stock


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Yes, I was right on target with your intent. I will not get sucked into this kind of discussion.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Since it's been mentioned, I will make one clarification. It wasn't 'parker' who banned Ted, nor was it done at his request lest there be some inclination of bias. That is all.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Rather than going back and deleting off topic posts, I'm letting what has been posted stand, but from here on out, posts need to stick to the thread topic and not get into the SC war.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Who can tell me what the original research that was done many years before mites that guided scientist into the development of Varroa mite resistant bees??? TED


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If the answer is that which we have been asked not to discuss, I think we should respect Barrys' wishes. Otherwise, I don't know.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Who can tell me what the original research that was done many years before mites that guided scientist into the development of Varroa mite resistant bees??? TED


Charles Darwin surely.
Unless, of course, G. Mendel.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The only asian research I've seen about varroa and mite tolerance was done on Apis Cerana of which various subspecies are native hosts to the different varroa subtypes. IIRC, Varroa Destructor is native to Korea and Varroa Jacobsonii is native to Indonesia. You might find some work by Woyke that covers the topic to some degree.

I'd like to point out that Brother Adam's books clearly document the process that was used to breed tracheal mite tolerant bees. It was simple. Breed from the survivors. Let the rest die. There is not much research involved in that process.

There is also some work done in Baton Rouge that Tom Rinderer could point out. That was the origin and entry point of VSH and SMR bees in the U.S. I think Harbo published something on the topic. You can see from the link below that Harbo, Hoopingarner, Harris, Spivak, etc have published on the topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varroa_sensitive_hygiene

http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/sanidad/varroa/475-Harris.pdf

I remembered this article but had to dig around for an hour to find it. This is the original ARS-YC1 info.
http://ressources.ciheam.org/om/pdf/c21/97605908.pdf

DarJones


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Dar, you got to go further back then that......Hint, the research was not even mite related but related to hygeneic behavior for another problematic disease. So Dar, tell me what the disease was and then you should be able to give me the scientist that did the research. Thus it will be obvious why fifty years later bee researchers went back to have another look.....TED


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ted, was it AFB and Dr. Waltert Rothenbueler? He and his researchers developed a bee that was highly hygenic. So highly so that it wouldn't get AFB. But, it also didn't proiduce much honey.

I have the 1952 USDA Yearbook of Agriculture "Insects" right here. For some reason my Father had this book on our bookshelf for years. I recall looking at it a number of times and then finally reading it when I went to OSU/ATI.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Personally, I’m not fond of these kinds of quizzes. The only purpose I can see is for the questioner to appear knowledgeable while he/she tells responders they are wrong. If you want to share information…..why not just do it?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'm with Dan on this one, I want to hear the rest of the story.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Who can tell me what the original research that was done many years before mites that guided scientist into the development of Varroa mite resistant bees??? TED


The work Rothenbuhler did with hygienic behavior did not directly correlate with mite tolerance and at the time it was done was only intended to find out if breeding could solve the major problem with AFB that was a nationwide scourge in the 1920's and 1930's. Unfortunately, they found that inbreeding is the achilles heel of honeybees as the more they inbred for hygienic traits, the more susceptible the bees became to EFB. I would argue an article in the May 1936 Gleanings that described finding two highly AFB tolerant colonies presaged most of the hygienic research and showed that hygienic bees are possible.

I will still stand by the statement that Brother Adam's account of breeding for tracheal mite tolerance precedes the hygienic research and is more directly correlated with the problems we have now with varroa. We now are reasonably sure that tracheal mite tolerance is a combination of higher pilosity and increased grooming/allogrooming behavior. I suspect that varroa tolerance is going to be linked to shorter brood development time, increased grooming behavior, and hygienic traits for removal of infested brood. 

The problem with highly hygienic bees is that they start uncapping and removing excessive amounts of brood. Eventually they have to be outcrossed or they will remove so much brood that the colony dwindles and dies. Hygienic behavior has a part to play in mite tolerance, but it will be contributory, other traits will have more significant effects.

I did a little more digging to find some older references. The first mention I could find for grooming/allogrooming behavior in Apis Cerana was by Peng in 1987. This was followed by a description of hygienic cell cleaning of infested worker brood by Rath and Drescher in 1990. This was followed by numerious observations that shorter development times led to varroa reproductive failure.

Rinderer summed up most of the information available on breeding for varroa tolerance in this article. 

http://www.altigoo.com/IMG/pdf/Rinderer--Breeding_for_Resistance_to_Varroa_Destructor.pdf

DarJones


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

It is not to meant as a quiz, as there a whole bunch of people out there in bee land that know a whole lot more than I. Dr. Rothenbuhler is the correct answer. When the Varroa mite first hit. The Beltsville bee lab in conjunction with Baton Rouge bee lab went back into the Rothenbuhler's old research for answers. Their thinking: if bees can be bred to uncap American Foulbrood and clean it out- a hygienic trait, then why cant we breed bees that can uncap and remove larvae infested with varroa. So the search went world wide to find strains of european bees that had been in contact with Varroa for a very long time. That had very good grooming behavior, That were hygienic. Dar, I am quite sure that if Brother Adam had lived just a little longer, he would have bred a bee that would and could handle varroa with no problem. Brother Adam was working on that towards the very end of his life. If he had succeeded, varroa would be no more than a paragraph in a beebook....Much work has gone into the development of varroa tolerant and resistant bees with success at our beelabs and by private individuals. Much more work needs to be done. I believe that the next generation of beekeepers will consider Varroa more of an occasional nuisance that needs an occasional spot treatment. While beekeeping will not be totally treatment free, honeybees will not need the blanket treatments of the past to survive. While it has not been smooth sailing, I do see distant shores on the horizon, a brighter future and a better tommorrow for beekeeping. Let us just hope that some unknown, unforeseen pestilence does not await us. TED


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## megank (Mar 28, 2006)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Let us just hope that some unknown, unforeseen pestilence does not await us. TED


History has shown that is pretty much a guarantee.


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