# Understanding Treatment Free



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i appreciate your post nediver.

the treatment free approach is sometimes referred to as a philosophy, perhaps driven by one's particular world view, or may have to do one's desire to produce and consume food perceived to be as free of contaminants as possible.

with me it's really none of those things. as a health care provider i spend my days diagnosing and prescribing treatments for all kinds of maladies. i did my homework when i started with bees and i was fully prepared to do the same with my colonies.

but then i ended up with bees that came with a history of thriving despite not having any treatments for almost 15 years. i also learned that we have a viable feral population in the area.

basically i decided that for both me and my bees it would actually be counterproductive to treat. for me it means less work and cost. for the bees the average strength of the colonies gets better over time when allowing nature to cull out the less fit. 

my losses are low and comparable to what folks around here utilizing conventional methods experience. i have incorporated swarm catching, queen rearing, and nuc production as a way to replace what few losses i have, and i usually have enough surplus colonies each year to sell a few.

the point is that we shouldn't lump all treatment free beekeepers under one umbrella. just like beekeepers in general come in all shapes and sizes having many different modes of operation so it is when it comes to folks keeping bees off treatments.

i'm venting a little bit here, but when i see terms like 'the treatment free crowd' or the 'treatment free group', well i pretty much just shrug my shoulders. i realize there are folks who tend to indentify themselves in that way, but i don't really see the point and it just sets the stage for the old worn out 'us' and 'them' showdown.

my opinion is that if a philosophy or world view or whatever is driving someone's motivation to be treatment free, it might be prudent to consider that the bees could not care less about any of that. 

learning about the factors involved and trying to understand why it is that some bees are able to do well off treatments whereas other bees cannot has turned out to be what has really captured my interest. there's still a lot we don't know but it's getting proper attention and i believe progress is being made.


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

nediver said:


> I really am trying to understand treatment free.
> * * *​I really am not trolling and I may not understand in the end, but I would like to try.


"While treatment against disease is helpful, it nevertheless prevents natural selection for improved host resistance and tolerance (Fries & Bommarco, 2007; Råberg, Graham, & Read, 2009)." _The Darwin cure for apiculture? Natural selection and managed honeybee health_, Neumann & Blacquière 2016. You be you. My experience has been different from what I was told, repeatedly, that it would be. So far. My methods are fairly one off. In a way, I am glad that, if beekeepers have to ride this wave, I get to ride it. Maybe it's a _Big Wednesday_ kind of thing. Hang ten.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Think of it as an immune system just as you have an immune system that fights off a multitude of bacteria, viruses, and germs on a daily basis. Some people have compromised immune systems. They are unable to fight off many of the diseases to which you are immune. Western honeybees developed without varroa and therefore most of them are susceptible to the viruses vectored by varroa. A few - in the beginning VERY few - colonies have traits that make them resistant. Now think it through, if we treat our bees, they will never develop the full set of resistance traits needed to survive on their own. If we manage our bees by giving them every advantage so they can survive and leave the mites to the bees, then in time the bees develop high levels of resistance and no longer need treatments.

In many ways, commercially bred bees are like a person with compromised immune system. We can fairly easily select bees that are healthy sans treatments. The problem is that a lot of people rely on their bees to make a living. They can't afford the losses that would occur if they suddenly stopped treatments. There is also a legitimate concern that none of the bees that can be kept treatment free today are adapted to commercial agriculture. What should we as beekeepers do? I submit that our job is to breed bees that can be managed commercially and don't need to be propped up with medications.


----------



## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Nediver, I have heard this statement from many people, relating bees to livestock, pets, and children. 

The reason to treat livestock is to protect an investment. If your steer that is going to get you a bunch of money when grown can be kept healthy by spending $30 per year, you would do it. If you are a commercial keeper and want to protect your investment to make a honey crop, or fulfill a pollination contract, you would do it. I am not a commercial keeper.

People spend way more on their pets than I would ever be willing to, but I get it. I cry when my dog dies. If a treatment were to cost $3000, there's no way I'd do that. I'd euthanize if suffering were an issue, and I'd cry. Thank stars I've never had to make that choice. Those decisions have to balance personal finance against the love you feel for your family friend. I don't have my bees yet, but they aren't going to share my bed at night or nuzzle me when they feel like something is wrong. I am certain I won't have an emotional attachment to them, they're bugs. (Maybe I'm wrong) 

Comparing bees to children is ludicrous. I would lose my house, give everything I own, and live on the street if that's what was needed to keep my children healthy.

Having addressed those arguments I'm left with the question, why? I suppose it has to do with my belief in the scientific method and in evolution. I'm aware any effort I undertake will have next to no impact on the creatures themselves on an evolutionary time scale. But if I can work to change other people's minds and get them to think on a longer scale than this year, and a larger area than this neighborhood, then I will have done the best I can for the bees.

We all want to do the best we can for *our* bees. Maybe it's more important to try to do the best you can for the whole species.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

You are wrong, monkey, you will cry when your bees die 

Honeybees are livestock. They are bred as livestock. They are in the same way unable to live like other livestock set free. But you may regress them. The regression is prevented by treating. 

There are some commercial beekeepers who do not treat. Erik Österlund tells a story about one of them on his blog. This beekeeper really is a fearless guy.
http://www.elgon.es/diary/


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

> Honeybees are livestock. They are bred as livestock. They are in the same way unable to live like other livestock set free.


I respectfully disagree with most all of the above statements.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Nordak said:


> I respectfully disagree with most all of the above statements.


Why? I enjoy the discussion! 
We have no ferals so it´s my situation.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

> it´s my situation.


I hope it's not the case someday. Your situation could be my situation or vice versa. It's all perspective and looking past ourselves is hard to do most days. It's possible.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Well, I don´t think you have this situation, even if there is no proof.
Your chance of having ferals around or setting free future ferals is great.

When I visited bee class after my years long observation with wild bees I was convinced there would be honeybees around just like wild bees and my naive outlook was, take some, keep them and harvest some honey for myself out of surplus.
I was really shocked about the state the honeybees are in looking at the hives and learning about the treatments.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

SiWolKe said:


> Well, I don´t think you have this situation, even if there is no proof.
> Your chance of having ferals around or setting free future ferals is great.
> 
> When I visited bee class after my years long observation with wild bees I was convinced there would be honeybees around just like wild bees and my naive outlook was, take some, keep them and harvest some honey for myself out of surplus.
> I was really shocked about the state the honeybees are in looking at the hives and learning about the treatments.


Sorry, that was a vague post. All that I meant was that despite what I believe, often reinforced through similar belief by others, it seems life constantly challenges those beliefs by examples running counter to them, forcing me to rethink my position. I say bees don't have to be treated like livestock. You say they do. Who's right? We probably both are, and the situations that created these scenarios involve man's involvement and the lack thereof. Perhaps Germans need to get less involved with the bees. 😄


----------



## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

When I watched Danny Weaver talk, he took thousands of hives off mite treatment and thousands of the hives died. I know that whatever I do isn't and will never match what he has done. Hobby beekeeper have good intentions but come on get real.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Who mentioned Hobby Beekeeper? If Danny Weaver had started with the feral genetics that were eventually infused within his own stock, he wouldn't have lost thousands of hives. He wouldn't have been selling bees either, though, given the fact they were africanized bees. All I'm saying is take the beekeeper out of the equation and somehow bees end up figuring it out. This is not a statement on what's possible for the hobbyist or even the commercial guy with a million hives. Bees don't need to be treated like livestock. Kept bees? That's situational.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I don´t claim to be right in my opinions, Nordak.
And yes, we are too much involved. Crazy, the bashing I get when telling about my losses, even if only half of them are varroa influenced.
To keep them naturally and not treating? Then I´m a mite distributor. This could change your point of view if you are not strong in your beliefs.

Maybe we would think otherwise living near the Arnot forest


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> Maybe we would think otherwise living near the Arnot forest


Extrapolating from my experience, the thing most distinguishing the Arnot forest from many other forests in North America is that Dr. Tom Seeley happens to have spent much of his life near there.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Riverderwent said:


> Extrapolating from my experience, the thing most distinguishing the Arnot forest from many other forests in North America is that Dr. Tom Seeley happens to have spent much of his life near there.


I like Seeley, but he really should get out more.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

My opinion is that bees are differrent from live stock and pets. You don't see wild cow or really wild dogs. You might see a cat making it on its own but in my experiance cats don't seem to have as many issues as cow and dogs and so maby they are wild a bit anyway. All this talk about bees being livestock only makes good sense from a money stand point as in you keep them cause you want something from them. I see what seeley says that make keeping bees differrent from wild bees. We make them bigger hives, put them closer together, interupt them and move them around. On the other hand. If a bee does have choices and decide to move into a bait hive rather then a hollow tree, who is to say from the bees poerspective that it was not a better cavity?

I read randy olivers artical in the bee journal and not to discount the work and study he puts into it, but I must be a little dence as some of the positions he puts out seems more to reconize what is going on and try not to offend each position even if in my mind the positions are contradictory. Like hard bond is bad cause you lose your work force and can adversly affect the kept and wild bees around you, yet reconizing that treatment needs are there for comercials to be able to make a living even though the treating weakens the bees that will be breeding.

My take from all that is we might as well reconize that people are going to take care of there own bees in the fassion they want and that really can not be controled. Throw in the fact that there are wild bees and it really can not be controlled even if everyone felt the same.

I do not now or ever get the mite bomb arguement as it pertains to hobbiest.

I do not get the argue ment that it can effect the wild hives also.

If people can buy packages and move them every where and as long as bees swarm from them and end up in the trees, the breeding will always have a bit of the package bee and the person keeping the package that makes a queen will always have some feral bee influince.

To say that a hobbiest that caught a swarm and then let it die is worse then what happened had that swarm moved into a tree and not been caught make me believe that there is no way that the person that caught it made the impact worse then had he not caught it. He may have an oppertunity to make it better but can't really make it worse. The package buyer may make it worse when his weak bees swarm to a feral population but it is going to happen as long as people keep bees. 

That said, I want to keep bees and it in the end comes down to me to decide how to keep them alive. I am lazy and so if they live with out being treated, I am going to like it cause it is cheaper and easier. I am like everyone else and keep bees for myself and what I can get from them and not really for what I can give the bees. So the only reason I give anything to the bee is so it can give to me.

So in the end I decide what is best and try it and then adjust untill the bees are giving or quit if I can not figure out how to get anything from them.

So in the end there is not right or wrong but more what you do to get what you can get.

The arguement that everyone has to do it a certain way will never wash because it could make too many people wrong. The deep winter people who used to buy packages each year and then take everything and not try to winter the bees would be wrong. The guy who polinates almunds and then spits up his bees into packages that are sold and sent all over to people who will probly kill them would be wrong. The guy that moves his bees from place to place even though there are studies to show this causes extra stess and kills more bees would be wrong. Yada, yada, yada.

There are just so many ways that someone could be doing wrong in someone elses (or the bees eyes) that no one could be right. So in the end if a person is having success in what he is trying to do with what he is working with, we should not pe pointing fingers at how it is hurting someone or something but instead stealing the parts we can make work for us in what we want to do.

So in the end, studying what you have and where you live and what it takes to keep your bees alive to get what you need from them is time best spent.

For those that are treatment free or those that are treating, if it is working for you and what you want, it is no more wrong then all the other wrong things (depending on who gets to decide the wrongness) that are done. You are not hurting those around you more then anyone else is. Most problims are taken care of by you or you will not have bees for long. It sorta takes care of itsself.

Cruelty is a funny thing. It is like all the wild live shows where the wolfs take down the bufflo and the person taking the film does not intervien. If he did intervien, who would he be being cruel to? The wolf? or the buffolo
Who get to be the one who gets to decide?
Cheers
gww


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Here's a page on the topic of why:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnotreatments.htm
and some details:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm

Quotes:
"All the boring and soul-destroying work of counting mites on sticky boards, killing brood with liquid nitrogen, watching bees groom each other, and measuring brood hormone levels---all done in thousands of replications---will someday be seen as a colossal waste of time when we finally learn to let the Varroa mites do these things for us." --Kirk Webster, What's missing from the current discussion and work related to bees that's preventing us from making good progress.
http://kirkwebster.com/index.php/wh...thats-preventing-us-from-making-good-progress

"I’ve thought a lot about how in the world to describe what’s really happening in an apiary that hasn’t used treatments of any kind for more than five years; where mites are now considered to be indispensable allies and friends, and where the productivity, resilience, profitability and enjoyment of the apiary are just as good as at any time in the past. I wouldn’t dream of killing any mites now, even if I had an easy and safe way of doing so."--Kirk Webster, A New Paradigm for American Beekeeping
http://kirkwebster.com/index.php/a-new-paradigm-for-american-beekeepers


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I think what kirk said was true. Except when tf and counting mites, and the best hives coming out of winter had fall mite counts of 10%, then it should give pause as to what soft bonders focus on. 

Some documentation is useful when we try to communicate what the bees are doing on their own. part of trying to understand nature.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Cheers gww


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

I'm following this thread with interest. I have of course hijacked another thread asking basically the same thing. Squarepeg has given a very good answer as he or she did on the other thread, but, it is difficult to extrapolate it to many of the other things I've read. It often comes through as a philosophy when other people talk about it. Not everyone, but, a lot of people. 

Nordak you have confused me with your disagreement. What do you consider your bees if not livestock. Pets? Family members? Free Spirits? Please elaborate on your disagreement. Take beekeepers out of the equation? I'm in Northwest Arkansas and no longer see any feral bees. The beekeepers were not in the equation and they all died. Do you have a lot of feral bees there?


----------



## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Nordak said:


> Who mentioned Hobby Beekeeper? If Danny Weaver had started with the feral genetics that were eventually infused within his own stock, he wouldn't have lost thousands of hives. He wouldn't have been selling bees either, though, given the fact they were africanized bees. All I'm saying is take the beekeeper out of the equation and somehow bees end up figuring it out. This is not a statement on what's possible for the hobbyist or even the commercial guy with a million hives. Bees don't need to be treated like livestock. Kept bees? That's situational.


Apparently you didn't understand in nature it's survival of the fittest all the feral bees are going through it and that's what the Weavers did with their bees. Not everyone has the diversity in their bees to do it. Being that they started doing the hard bond selection when the AHB were starting to come in the country they had a advantage of having some feral bees for extra diversity. I for one am glad that they did all the hard work and kept the bees fairly gental.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Dl....
[QUOTENordak you have confused me with your disagreement. What do you consider your bees if not livestock. Pets? Family members? Free Spirits? Please elaborate on your disagreement. Take beekeepers out of the equation? I'm in Northwest Arkansas and no longer see any feral bees. The beekeepers were not in the equation and they all died. Do you have a lot of feral bees there? ][/QUOTE]
I know you ask nordac but in you area, has there been any crop management changes like more corn being planted or anything like that. I have seen studies where crop management like planting more corn has mad an impact on feral bees.

I always wonder how someone can tell if the bee is from a tree or a hive when they see one. I know seeley has studies some areas and after the 80% die off when mites first appeared the bees are making a comeback. Even if a bee was found in a tree, it might have a marked queen and so I always have a hard time on the definition of feral also. 

I am respectfully wondering how you came to the conclusion that your feral bees have dissapeared?
Thanks
gww


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Good questions. I'm in the hills. There are no crops grown here. It used to be common enough to see bee trees. I've not seen any and not heard anyone else talk about any for several years. The bees I have seen foraging that are not mine are all light Italian bees. I think the feral bees tend to be darker. The last feral tree I saw was several years ago several miles back on the Buffalo river. I have been wondering if there are bees there still. I might go visit it this weekend since we are looking for a reason to hike. It might be that there are some feral bees in the area, but, not that I have heard. I would be interested if anyone knows different. Thanks.

I did go up into Missouri and look at some that were in the base of someone's home last year. They claimed they had been there for six years. They were gone by August. I think they thought I came back and stole them.


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

dlbrightjr said:


> I've not seen any and not heard anyone else talk about any for several years.


I haven't seen any colonies living in a tree since Monday.


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Riverderwent said:


> I haven't seen any colonies living in a tree since Monday.


In Northwest Arkansas? How long have they been there?


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Northwest Louisiana. Since last year. I know of one colony that was in a cedar tree by the parking lot of an agricultural research station supposedly for at least thirteen years. They are now in one of my beeyards. So far in 2017, I've seen three colonies living in trees that I can think of offhand. I've seen several other colonies in walls. There are probably beekeepers in this area that would say that they don't know of any feral colonies around here anymore. Some of that may be that when we were young we were roaming around fields and woods more than we do now that we're older, and so we see fewer of a lot of things than we used to. If I recall correctly, there's a fairly large operation near Russellville that is treatment free.


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Riverderwent said:


> Northwest Louisiana. Since last year. I know of one colony that was in a cedar tree by the parking lot of an agricultural research station supposedly for at least thirteen years. They are now in one of my beeyards. So far in 2017, I've seen three colonies living in trees that I can think of offhand. I've seen several other colonies in walls. There are probably beekeepers in this area that would say that they don't know of any feral colonies around here anymore. Some of that may be that when we were young we were roaming around fields and woods more than we do now that we're older, and so we see fewer of a lot of things than we used to. If I recall correctly, there's a fairly large operation near Russellville that is treatment free.


Thanks. There could be some around here, but, I roam quite a lot still. If you think of the outfit in Russellville's name let me know. I have a daughter in college down there so I get down there some. I would be interested in visiting them. We are far enough north of Russellville that our winters are quite a bit different though and we have no commercial beekeepers. Maybe they have more feral hives down there. I'm pretty confident that we do not have near the feral colonies that used to exist here. The most common comment I hear when people find out I have bees is that they haven't seen a bee in years. A lot of years I haven't seen a single bee myself and I look when I'm out. When I was younger that was not the case. They were everywhere.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

dl......


> I did go up into Missouri and look at some that were in the base of someone's home last year. They claimed they had been there for six years. They were gone by August. I think they thought I came back and stole them.


:thumbsup:

I stepped on a few bees when I was a kid. I have lived in the country till I was 17 and moved back out of town in 96. During my youth and when coming back, I have cut and burnt a lot of wood. I have mushroom hunted my intire life (which should be prime swarm season). I have never seen a swarm or seen a tree with bees in it untill I set traps and watched one come to it. I do know that I notice more things now that I have bees that I used to not. I never saw a hive in my life till right before I got bees. I never knew anyone had bees around me till I got bees and have heard of quite a few since. I just cleared a three acre patch of mature woods so that a lake could go in. I had put a trap out in a deerstand in that patch of woods and seen a bee checking it out while I did it. (A highlift will do a number on a trap that you are to lazy to retreive and deer stand also). I know on that three acre their were not bee trees. I still have never saw a bee tree. I do know that if I put a half cup of sugar water out on the first flying day of spring, that after the bees find it, it is impressive. I also know that my eyes are not good enough for bee lineing and even pouring flower on the bees, I can not see which direction they take home.

I notice so much more bee stuff now then I used to but still have yet to see a swarm or tree. I did catch three of them all 12 miles apart from each other though.
Great talking to you and thank you for responding to my questions.
gww

Ps I have seen hornets nest and ground wasp and bumble bees when bushhogging and picking blackberrys and yellow jackets when making apple butter or picking grapes.


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

gww: 

Do you think the bees your are catching in your traps are from established feral colonies or managed colonies? I do not believe we have a viable feral population here. I think if we had commercial operations we would see a lot more colonies that appear feral. I believe if we had Africanized Bees we would have a feral population (please don't get the idea I'm advocating for this). I just do not believe we have had a self sustaining feral population in this area since Varroa showed up. I am talking specifically about my area. If anyone has even anecdotal evidence that says different I would be interested. I am not arguing for it or against it. I am just sharing my very limited experience. Thanks.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

dl
I have no ideal or thoughts on where my bees are coming from. I do think that enough beekeepers lose bees to swarms every year and that some of them are going to be somewhere other then in a hive. I could give no credable view on if those get away swarms live or die but my mind says that some must live for a while every once in a while. Nope, I don't know what I am catching.

Cheers
gww


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

dl, looking at the google terrain map for harrison i see quite a bit of wooded land just to the south of you. that would be prime habitat for feral survivors. you might check with the folks at the university of arkansas, they have invested quite a bit of time researching feral honeybees.


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> dl, looking at the google terrain map for harrison i see quite a bit of wooded land just to the south of you. that would be prime habitat for feral survivors. you might check with the folks at the university of arkansas, they have invested quite a bit of time researching feral honeybees.


Good idea. I will check with them. I hadn't thought of that. That is the terrain I grew up in and am referring to.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

> If you think of the outfit in Russellville's name let me know.


The outfit you are referring to is Frost Apiaries out of Dardanelle, AR. Dardanelle is just over the bridge, south of Russellville if you're familiar with the area. Frost is probably about 15 miles from where I live.

http://www.frostapiary.com


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Nordak said:


> The outfit you are referring to is Frost Apiaries out of Dardanelle, AR. Dardanelle is just over the bridge, south of Russellville if you're familiar with the area. Frost is probably about 15 miles from where I live.
> 
> http://www.frostapiary.com


That is they. Do you know if they treat for varroa?


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

No, they do not treat for varroa from what I've heard. I've never actually spoken to the owners, but from what I understand they have a long and storied history of keeping bees in this region.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I emailed Frost out of curiosity. Considering trying out a couple of their queens. Who knows, I might already have some of their genetics by the sound of it. Here is their response:

"Sir, we do not use chemicals of any kind in our bees. We have bees that go back to my grandfather in the early 30's. We use these to cross our queens (varia sensitive hygiene) to produce a queen with terrific traits that resist mites and produce honey while retaining gentleness as well.

Thanks,
Terry and Kim Frost"

Sounds like a top-notch outfit.


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Nordak said:


> Who knows, I might already have some of their genetics by the sound of it.


I'd be surprised if you don't. Or you might say they've got yours. There's something about river bottoms.


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Thanks. It seems like I've heard the name. I would be interested in getting some queens from them too.


----------



## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

The conversation has moved quite a bit since original poster, but I'm just now reading it.

To the OP: I also respect your question, and the tone you have asked it in. Thank you for joining us. 

I hear this comparison a bit, but I don't buy it for several reasons. 

If I had a single family dog which needed chemotherapy to live, and my kids just loved it, yes... maybe I would go that route and spend a lot of money and time treating the dog.

But, if the dog were already 12 years old, and needed these treatments every 3 months, and would die suddenly if I didn't treat them, and would threaten my other dogs with disease and death if I did so... suddenly the math is changing. The dog is already near the end of its normal life, and my treating it is drawing funds away from the other dogs I have, and not treating it will kill my other healthy dogs. Suddenly, giving this dog a compassionate death seems kinder in the big picture, and certainly wiser financially. 

What if I own hundreds or thousands of dogs, and my long term goal is "to improve dog genetics so they don't need as much treatment"? What if my sick dog were having hundreds of children which carried his sickness, which were breeding with my healthy dogs, killing their children? 

Analogies can be tricky because they all fall apart at some point. Bees aren't dogs. Bees aren't children. A virus susceptible queen throwing off hundreds of drones needs to die; she does not need to be kept alive artificially. We kill her kindly and quickly, in a way which protects our other bees.

The broken analogy is part of our problem. You might see OA vapor or a chemical strip as a rabies shot... a prudent protection reasonably given every hive. And, sure, I would give every dog I own a rabies shot in a minute (and I do). We TF folk see it more like an organ transplant or chemotherapy: an unnatural lengthening of the life of a sicker than usual individual, which would naturally die otherwise without this intervention. Necessary for children, but not ok for old dogs who are a threat to the kennel. (For the record, I see trapping hive beetles or artificial brood breaks as being like rabies shots... certainly not chemotherapy. Many of us TF beekeepers "treat" in our own way).

When you read Joe the Awesome Beekeeper's book and he says "requeen every year, because maybe she is spent and you shouldn't get attached to your bees" you don't feel Joe is being cruel... although he is wiping out the entire hive genetics as surely as a TF beekeeper is. He is pinching that otherwise healthy, fine queen; is that ok? Just because she is, OMG, 1 year old? Joe's killing her for economic reasons, or maybe convenience. Or maybe just habit.

If I go into my 20 hives in the Fall, and determine I have 5 weak and sickly virus-ridden ones, and I pinch those 5 queens, I'm not doing anything Joe the Awesome hasn't done, right? Just requeening before winter comes so I have a good hive in the spring. No big deal... queens die, but the colony thrives. But, I'm doing it with the goal of improving the species. Maybe that's more noble. Maybe it is just vanity.... I have good intentions, anyway.

We suffer these losses and lose these queens in the hope of better bees in the future. And, every hive we lose hurts badly, and we confess them here and often beat ourselves up about them. While there are certainly plenty of half-crazed lunatics in the TF sphere (and we get links to their videos every now and then) most of us have a scientific frame of mind, and a firm respect of Darwin. (I do not hang crystals in my hives, nor are they shaped like pyramids). 

The bees will be better when we are done. (And there are places on Earth which are 10 years ahead of us which prove this out). We want sick bees to die, and healthy bees to thrive and breed. That's our purpose. 

Mike


----------



## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Hear hear!!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> We want sick bees to die, and healthy bees to thrive and breed. 

Yes. Well said.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

michael, i noticed that the position laid out on your updated web page has evolved.

i believe at one time you were ok with the use of organic acids as a short term stop gap measure to utilize as one was making the transition to treatment free.

you no longer hold that view, citing the impact on potentially beneficial microbes and other organisms most likely outweighs the benefits of killing mites.

the dilemma, (especially for small scale entry level beekeepers who may not have access to bees already being kept off treatments, feral survivors, or other mite resistant stock), is how to go about transitioning from bees coming with a history of being treated to having success keeping them off treatments.

you sometimes cite that survival of colonies is no different when comparing treated vs. untreated. perhaps the folks contributing to beesource are not a representative sample but...

we seem to hear much more often from entry level beekeepers who start with bees (not coming with a history of being treatment free) who report not having success as compared to those who report having success.

in these cases the beginner is often left disheartened and has lost return on investment. many are left with a negative view of treatment free and such examples provide ammunition to those who vigorously oppose the tf approach.

in my opinion, and until the time comes when treatment free bees become more readily available, the recommendation for folks to continue accepting the losses until at some point they end up with bees that can survive off treatments is neither palatable nor sustainable.


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

So in a nutshell being treatment free is just letting sick bees die? The same with nosema, AFB, EFB, starvation, and any other condition? What role do you see for a beekeeper? Could extinction be the answer? Just letting sick bees die doesn't seem like an idea at all to me.


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

I was posting at the same time as squarepeg. I want to think squarepeg for continually taking a common sense approach. It is one of the only reasons I haven't entirely tuned out. It gives me some hope that there is something of use here for me. Thanks once again.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

dl, i can only speak for myself.

i 'inherited' a couple of hives and was unaware were being treated prophylactically for afb. when it showed up they got burned.

other than that i don't see 'sick' bees. most of my losses take the form of dwindling during the winter months. many look more like queen failure with a few showing evidence of mite infestation.

it's not that i don't have mites. my late fall samples reveal +/- 10% infestations, but there is no evidence of brood disease or otherwise, and these colonies come back to build up strong in the spring and yield a respectable honey crop.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

dlbrightjr said:


> So in a nutshell being treatment free is just letting sick bees die? The same with nosema, AFB, EFB, starvation, and any other condition? What role do you see for a beekeeper? Could extinction be the answer? Just letting sick bees die doesn't seem like an idea at all to me.


Squarepeg's experience is much like mine in terms of sick bees. I have utilized requeening as a tool before to turn a dwindling hive into a healthy one, in addition to adding a couple of frames of capped brood to help boost them. There is a line of course between salvageable and too far gone and you'd need ro be able to know what you're looking at on those terms.


----------



## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

squarepeg said:


> the dilemma, (especially for small scale entry level beekeepers who may not have access to bees already being kept off treatments, feral survivors, or other mite resistant stock), is how to go about transitioning from bees coming with a history of being treated to having success keeping them off treatments.
> 
> ...
> 
> in my opinion, and until the time comes when treatment free bees become more readily available, the recommendation for folks to continue accepting the losses until at some point they end up with bees that can survive off treatments is neither palatable nor sustainable.


This is exactly my worry this year as a new beekeeper. I have 2 nucs coming in that are already living the small cell life, but they have been treated with oxalic. I have already invested a lot of money, and even more time, in preparing to care for them. Realistically, what should I do if they are both in danger of failing from varroa come fall?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>we seem to hear much more often from entry level beekeepers who start with bees (not coming with a history of being treatment free) who report not having success as compared to those who report having success.

I have the opposite experience. I speak most weekends when it's not bee season and talk to thousands of treatment free beekeepers in the course of the year and most are having great success often for more than a decade. I see as many new beekeepers who treat losing all of their bees as beekeepers who don't treat. I think new beekeepers often fail because they are not good beekeepers yet.

>So in a nutshell being treatment free is just letting sick bees die? The same with nosema, AFB, EFB, starvation, and any other condition? What role do you see for a beekeeper? Could extinction be the answer? Just letting sick bees die doesn't seem like an idea at all to me.

Beekeeping is a very complex thing even if you are treatment free. Beekeeping isn't only about treating for diseases. It's about doing splits at the right time, preventing swarming, raising queens, peaking the population at the right time for a crop, keeping them from starving, noticing when they are having trouble, managing space to help them... I have a treatment free beekeeping web site and when translated into a book it takes up 674 pages and usually I've only hit the highlights of any topic, not all the depth because it would get way too long. It doesn't take that many pages to explain how to not treat...


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

I want to thank everyone for the civil discourse. Especially when I was cherry picking statements, perhaps changing their context some, and painting them with a broad brush. I think there are lot of excellent answers here.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

aumfc said:


> I have 2 nucs coming in that are already living the small cell life, but they have been treated with oxalic. I have already invested a lot of money, and even more time, in preparing to care for them. Realistically, what should I do if they are both in danger of failing from varroa come fall?


yours is a good example of the dilemma i mentioned above. as michael points out there is a lot to learn when it comes to starting new with bees, and that in and of itself is challenging enough for most folks.

but then adding to that challenge the ability to monitor the mite load and realizing when or if the colonies will be able to sustain without intervention is usually a little more than a first year beekeeper is capable of doing.

also, just having 2 hives doesn't leave much wiggle room in terms of getting through the winter and having bees to work with the following spring. even with the proven stock that i am working with i expect a certain percentage of the colonies not to make it for this reason or that, but i've learned that a few losses are very easy to recover from the next season by catching swarms and making splits.

aumfc, the bees you are purchasing have not proven that they can survive varroa mites without treatments, but even if you were purchasing 2 nucs from me that were propagated from bees having a 20 year history of being treatment free, i would want to be sure that you understood that is no guarantee that one or both wouldn't succumb to mites.

michael mentions the thousands of beekeepers he makes contact with over the course of the year. it's obvious that you have done your homework, how many successful treatment free beekeepers have you been able to find in the birmingham area? if you have located any then they would be the ideal source for your bees and advice on how to keep them.

don't get me wrong, i am not trying to talk you into or out of anything here, only trying to present an objective point of view. i believe your chances of success would be greater if you had the time and resources to manage at least 10 hives, and if you were willing to collect overwintered feral/unmanaged colonies by doing cut outs and placing swarm traps in remote locations.


----------



## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

dlbrightjr said:


> So in a nutshell being treatment free is just letting sick bees die? The same with nosema, AFB, EFB, starvation, and any other condition? What role do you see for a beekeeper? Could extinction be the answer? Just letting sick bees die doesn't seem like an idea at all to me.


That is natural selection. The bees are not likely to go extinct, the ones who can't survive will perish, leaving the genetics of the survivors to continue and mix and get stronger. This is the primary idea of evolution. What TF proposes is to get out of the way and let what has worked well for eons to continue working well.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> That is natural selection. The bees are not likely to go extinct, the ones who can't survive will perish, leaving the genetics of the survivors to continue and mix and get stronger. This is the primary idea of evolution. What TF proposes is to get out of the way and let what has worked well for eons to continue working well.


The only problem with making these words fly is the fact that many species in the past have indeed failed to survive their changing conditions or predators. I think there is strong evidence that more species have become extinct than what currently survive. It is only our wishful thinking that mother nature is on our side and must of necessity provide the honeybee with guaranteed survival in the long term. This simply is unknowable by mortals.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> What TF proposes is to get out of the way and let what has worked well for eons to continue working well.


not exactly mcbean, or perhaps oversimplified, but in my opinion it's more about practicing smart husbandry.

it's hardly 'getting out of the way' when we take dozens or even hundreds of grafts from a queen in order to propagate traits that we deem 'beneficial' like mite resistance for example.

i tried to explain my views in previous posts about how the very act of 'keeping' bees represents a significant deviation from their natural state, and how there is no universally accepted definition of treatment free let alone one that specifically 'proposes' anything,

which is why i have to respectfully take exception to your comments.


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

dlbrightjr said:


> What role do you see for a beekeeper?


I don't feed, and I don't treat. If I didn't leave them enough honey, I'd feed them. But I do, so I don't. I do cutouts, make splits, catch swarms, sell honey, and sell bees. I went into winter with 25 hives; I came out with 22. I don't want to lose hives, but I don't want unhardy bees multiplying. Two weeks ago I had 23 colonies. Today I have 39. My goal was to have 12 hives. If I can ever get down to that number, I may try to stay there this time. You be you. I'm living the dream, just not your dream.


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Riverderwent said:


> I don't feed, and I don't treat. If I didn't leave them enough honey, I'd feed them. But I do, so I don't. I do cutouts, make splits, catch swarms, sell honey, and sell bees. I went into winter with 25 hives; I came out with 22. I don't want to lose hives, but I don't want unhardy bees multiplying. Two weeks ago I had 23 colonies. Today I have 39. My goal was to have 12 hives. If I can ever get down to that number, I may try to stay there this time. You be you. I'm living the dream, just not your dream.


Good for you! I don't know how to be anyone else. I'm glad you're not living my dream that would just be weird..


----------



## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

squarepeg said:


> not exactly mcbean, or perhaps oversimplified, but in my opinion it's more about practicing smart husbandry.
> 
> it's hardly 'getting out of the way' when we take dozens or even hundreds of grafts from a queen in order to propagate traits that we deem 'beneficial' like mite resistance for example.
> 
> ...


Sorry, like I've said, I haven't yet gotten my bees. These are my reasons for choosing a TF approach. It's probably my inexperience that makes me keep forgetting how many different ways we interfere with the bees.


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

dlbrightjr said:


> Good for you! I don't know how to be anyone else. I'm glad you're not living my dream that would just be weird..


I wish you the best in your beekeeping.


----------



## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

Good replies but I'm genuinely curious what answer anyone would give to my question.

I'll have two hives coming. I simply won't have more this year. I understand nothing is guaranteed but my question is the same. If I want to go TF, realistically, what should I do if they are both in danger of failing from varroa come fall? Let them fail and start over next year or treat and attempt to save them?

Which of you all that have multi-year experience with TF actually started out, from day one, TF, and with how many hives, and where did they come from? I get the feeling that the answer to these questions matter greatly, and also greatly influence one's opinion. Someone that starts with 5 nucs obtained from a TF operation for the last 5 years may have a vastly different experience in starting out TF than someone that purchases 2 packages from a commercial supplier. Maybe this information should be included in everyone's signature. 

Thanks again for the great conversation!


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Thanks Riverderwent. The good for you was sincere. I realized later it could sound snarky. If I was in your situation I can't say I would do it any different. My original plan was to get bees with swarm traps and cutouts. However, I figured out it wasn't compatible with my work schedule and home demands. My plans are often thwarted by reality.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good morning aumfc.

i started out tf, but i was very lucky to be able to start with bees that were already tf, and they were derived from a thriving local feral population which is by definition tf. i went from 4 hives to 10 hives to +/- 20 hives.

in my opinion, and echoing what randy oliver and others have expressed, it makes more sense to do what is necessary to get your colonies through to the next year. 

if it turns out that your genetics don't allow them to make it without treatments at least you still have the bees, and the genetics can be changed by requeening with something more promising.

again, the difficulty is being able to make that call in time to effectively do something about it. there are no guarantees one way or the other, so in a very real sense you will be 'experimenting'.

it's always up to the individual beekeeper, and only you can make the determination on how much or how little impact it will have on you financially and psychologically if the experiment is a success vs. a failure.

for what it's worth, all but one of the dozen or so successful tf beekeepers i know up here are using standard cell foundation, and the one that has been using 4.9 is converting over to 5.1.

the other point to keep in mind that regardless of what bees you bring in, and unless you continue to requeen from an outside source, as each successive queen daughter from your first queens goes out and mates with the drones in your area the colonies become more and more hybridized and take on the characteristics of your local population.


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

aumfc said:


> Good replies but I'm genuinely curious what answer anyone would give to my question.
> 
> I'll have two hives coming. I simply won't have more this year. I understand nothing is guaranteed but my question is the same. If I want to go TF, realistically, what should I do if they are both in danger of failing from varroa come fall? Let them fail and start over next year or treat and attempt to save them?
> 
> ...


I'm in the same boat (and town) as you. 
I have 2 packages coming 4/1 and my long term goal is to be TF. However, I know these package bees are treated and I don't expect to not treat them. I do plan to re-queen them at some point with queens that are TF. 
I'm also hopeful that I'll be able to get a couple of TF nucs. I plan to max out @ 4 (maybe 5 if I catch a swarm) hives.

So, in a nutshell, I will treat these 2 packages. And if they mite bomb the TF nucs, I will treat them too if I have too, until I can get them all TF.


----------



## costigaj (Oct 28, 2015)

I think the idea of TF is definitely the way to go in the long term. It's my goal. Here is my personal TF development plan, 1) learn and practice basic beekeeping, 2) study the biology of the bee, 3) study genetics and traits of bees, 4) take copious notes about seasons, weather, foraging conditions, behavior and hive health, 5) learn to trap swarms, 6) learn to raise queens, 7) learn the TF methods of those doing it well and finally 8) learn from my mistakes. I'm pretty good at number 1 and number 8.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

> maybe 5 if I catch a swarm


Surprised you haven't yet. I'd keep an eye open today for certain.


----------



## costigaj (Oct 28, 2015)

Nordak said:


> Surprised you haven't yet. I'd keep an eye open today for certain.


Yep. Trying it this year. Here in Central PA all the swarm fun starts in May. I'm trying my hand at raising queens this year as well.


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

it's been cloudy this morning. I still see a few bees coming and going but nothing like yesterday. The sun is coming out now so let's hope they'll complete the deal.


----------



## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

R_V said:


> it's been cloudy this morning. I still see a few bees coming and going but nothing like yesterday. The sun is coming out now so let's hope they'll complete the deal.


What sort of trap are you using? I'm hoping to set something up Sunday.


----------



## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

Thanks for the replies. Still interested in more experiences starting out though from some of the other active members.


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

aumfc said:


> What sort of trap are you using? I'm hoping to set something up Sunday.


simple 8 foot long 1x12 board cut to the width and length of a hive body. ply wood top and bottom. one and a half inch hole on the side. the bees were digging it yesterday.
https://youtu.be/359SLu1xvb0

I had just placed on my deck. was planning to move it into a tree but they found it first


----------



## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

aumfc said:


> Good replies but I'm genuinely curious what answer anyone would give to my question.
> 
> I'll have two hives coming. I simply won't have more this year. I understand nothing is guaranteed but my question is the same. If I want to go TF, realistically, what should I do if they are both in danger of failing from varroa come fall? Let them fail and start over next year or treat and attempt to save them?
> 
> ...


No experience here, talking anyway. I think it's probably beneficial to get your packages from different suppliers if at all possible. I'm starting this year with two also, but one is a commercial package supplier from the south and one is a nuc from a traveling commercial pollinator.

Like DL, I can't really run away from work to go get a swarm when a call comes in. I'll try trapping.


----------



## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

R_V said:


> simple 8 foot long 1x12 board cut to the width and length of a hive body. ply wood top and bottom. one and a half inch hole on the side. the bees were digging it yesterday.
> https://youtu.be/359SLu1xvb0
> 
> I had just placed on my deck. was planning to move it into a tree but they found it first


Cool. Did you put anything inside the box? I assume it's the size of a deep, correct?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'll have two hives coming. I simply won't have more this year. I understand nothing is guaranteed but my question is the same. If I want to go TF, realistically, what should I do if they are both in danger of failing from varroa come fall? Let them fail and start over next year or treat and attempt to save them?

Everyone has to make their own choice. I would let them fail and start over the next year.

>Which of you all that have multi-year experience with TF actually started out, from day one, TF

When I started the biggest boogie man was AFB. I was scared into using TM the first year but never treated after that until several losses to Varroa on large cell comb. I treated some of them the first year on small cell for two reasons. 1) to see if small cell was working and 2) to try to find a less dangerous less contaminating treatment in case small cell failed. Once I saw that small cell was working I have not treated since.

> and with how many hives

At first, about 20 when I first regressed them to small cell.

> and where did they come from?

Some were commercial packages and some captured swarms and cutouts. Winter was much better with the local bees.

> I get the feeling that the answer to these questions matter greatly, and also greatly influence one's opinion. 

A person's experience always influences their opinion.


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

aumfc said:


> Which of you all that have multi-year experience with TF actually started out, from day one, TF, and with how many hives, and where did they come from?


I've never treated. Our first two colonies were nucs from a migratory beekeeper. The third colony was a nuc from a water meter. They were mean. That colony was requeened. My other colonies have come from splits, cutouts, trapped swarms, and swarm clusters.


----------



## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

aumfc said:


> Good replies but I'm genuinely curious what answer anyone would give to my question.
> 
> I'll have two hives coming. I simply won't have more this year. I understand nothing is guaranteed but my question is the same. If I want to go TF, realistically, what should I do if they are both in danger of failing from varroa come fall? Let them fail and start over next year or treat and attempt to save them?


We aren't trying to be weasels when we say "find a way which works for you" but it is true.  If you want them to live no matter what, treat. If you really want to go TF, get the genetics from day 1 (that was my mistake... trying to TF with commercial bees; 33% survival first year, and it felt like Hell). If you don't get the genetics and don't want to "treat" (scare quotes on purpose) consider "soft Bond" where you treat to give the workers a life-line, but you re-queen with better genetics at exactly the same time. The purpose is to give the new queen a support staff until she sets up shop. If I could do it over again, I would probably have done that..


----------



## Scottsbee (Jan 11, 2017)

My bees, to me, are an exotic pet. Beginning with used equipment and a donated swarm, 2015. Only treated with OAV when I saw what looked like DWV. Decided that I'd rather have bees, than no bees. Really steep learning curve, steeper without bees. 
Having bees to continue my learning is more important than being TF. Someday, once I've learned the basics will definitely give it a shot. 

Original swarm still going. We have 3 hives and so far, winter loss 0.


----------



## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

Thanks again for the replies everyone!


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Ok will tell my story yet again to collective groans. 

1st year had a local nuc with a Hawaiian queen that had built to 10 medium frames. In June, I received 4 Saskatraz queens and a local queen cell. I split that original nuc up. The local queen cell emerged and mated in spite of a minimal of support staff. I also messed around and produced 2 additional bad queens. Went into winter with 8 nucs on 10 medium frames. Fed them well in fall. 6 survived. 

2nd year, made 26 nucs, 5 with imported queens, 12 survived the winter and 4 of the big hives survived.

3rd year, went into winter with 20 big hives and 41 nucs. The big hives took a beating this year but the nucs are ok. 8 big hives are still kicking some with big clusters, and about 25-27 nucs. Some are on the edge. 

So I have nice bees to work with this year and its going to be interesting.


----------



## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

lharder said:


> Ok will tell my story yet again to collective groans.
> 
> 1st year had a local nuc with a Hawaiian queen that had built to 10 medium frames. In June, I received 4 Saskatraz queens and a local queen cell. I split that original nuc up. The local queen cell emerged and mated in spite of a minimal of support staff. I also messed around and produced 2 additional bad queens. Went into winter with 8 nucs on 10 medium frames. Fed them well in fall. 6 survived.
> 
> ...


Boy, that escalated quickly! What is your goal? I'm assuming to start a commercial honey operation? And you have never treated?


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

lharder said:


> Ok will tell my story yet again to collective groans.


No groans here. I appreciate you sharing your story. I also think it gives people realistic expectations. I appreciate that. Good luck and I hope your survivors help you meet your goals. Did your Saskatraz queens survive?


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> >we seem to hear much more often from entry level beekeepers who start with bees (not coming with a history of being treatment free) who report not having success as compared to those who report having success.
> 
> I have the opposite experience. I speak most weekends when it's not bee season and talk to thousands of treatment free beekeepers in the course of the year and most are having great success often for more than a decade. I see as many new beekeepers who treat losing all of their bees as beekeepers who don't treat. *I think new beekeepers often fail because they are not good beekeepers yet.*
> 
> ...


Well said, Michael.
This is exactly what it is about.

My experience:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...e-chronicle-of-a-beekeeper-from-South-Germany


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

aumfc said:


> Boy, that escalated quickly! What is your goal? I'm assuming to start a commercial honey operation? And you have never treated?


Nope, no treating ever. The learning curve was learning to make increase rather than learning how to treat. With numbers, odds improve in having something worthwhile to work with assuming some genetics is around that will deal with mites and viruses. 

My primary interest in the thing (besides the overall fascination with bees) is in the genetics, adaptation, evolution and the ecology of the situation. So I call it an applied ecology project. To get the numbers up it necessarily means I have honey as a by product that also happens to support the project. Eventually I'll sell some bees, maybe even this year, which in a round about way, will help my cause by placing more bees with some resistance in the community.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

2 of the 4 survived 2 winters. The remaining 2 queens were superceded in their 3rd summer, but those colonies went downhill and died this fall. Most of their daughters also died this winter, so it looks like that line is failing to some extent. However I have vigorous grand daughters from that line still going. I had a couple of grand daughters of that original Hawaiian queen that survived their first winter, but succumbed the second. Yet again I have a few great grand daughters that are still going. The most vigorous long lasting line so far is from that local queen that I obtained on a whim from my local beekeeping mentor. She is now going into her 4th summer, and her daughters look good as well. The irony is that I took no daughters from her her second summer and placed my bets on the Saskatraz queens. 

This is not slagging the Saskatraz queens. They have many good characteristics that will hopefully be present in my population when/if my genetics stabilize. I will be sampling my bees on an ongoing basis and will bring in some genetics to bring in potentially useful traits that is missing from the local population.


----------



## herbhome (Oct 18, 2015)

dlbrightjr,

I was hiking on the buffalo yesterday and thought of you. We hiked from Centerpoint down to Granny Henderson's place, across goat trail and to the falls and then up to Compton. I saw a slew of redbud being worked by honey bees. Most of them looked liked regular bees, kind of yellow with bands, but one tree had all black bees with light maybe grey bands. I got within a foot to get a good look at them. Only bees with that description I know of are germans and Caucasians. Maybe there still is a feral hive or two in that area.


----------



## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Fusion_power said:


> Western honeybees developed without varroa and therefore most of them are susceptible to the viruses vectored by varroa.


May I point out this is an assumption that kind of falls apart when you look at it closely. Our bees do have the tools needed to manage mites themselves - they've just been held at a low rate in the population because they've not been needed. That haven't suddenly sprung into being in the last 20 years. 

That tells us that 'Western' honeybees have had experience of mites in their... 20-30 million years history, and possess the tools to deal with them.

Varroa is - or would be simply a brief epidemic of the sort that is fantastically common in nature. A proportion of the population die off, the population is rapidly rebuilt from the (resistant) survivors. 

Its the same with the viruses. Some viruses go round and round; all mutate rapidly; Natural Selection for the Fittest is the means by which they are managed. 

Populations are forever meeting new predators (including mites and viruses). Western bees have met millions in their history. Natural Selection has and will continue to see them through. Unless we finally manage to 'help' them all the way to extinction. 

My old thread Ruttner on the importance of ruthless selection' has just popped back to life. Its short and it supplies foundations to the essential points made here. 

Breeding is a _necessity_. 

Medicating is the opposite of breeding.

It follows; 

Treatment free (and breeding) beekeeping is the only sane response to varroa

Mike 

UK


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> May I point out this is an assumption that kind of falls apart when you look at it closely.


 The assumption holds totally true when looked at from the perspective of bees getting varroa for the first time 25 to 35 years ago in your country and mine. Of the colonies of bees alive at that time, the number that had traits for resistance to varroa were vanishingly small as a percentage of the population. Where I live, we spent 10 years with virtually no detectable feral honeybees. Then, a few colonies that could survive started to show up. Breeding from those survivors led to bees that could survive varroa where the bees I had in 1993 could not. I therefore disagree with your statement. If you had been keeping bees in the mid 1980's, you would have seen this play out in the UK.


----------



## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Fusion_power said:


> The assumption holds totally true when looked at from the perspective of bees getting varroa for the first time 25 to 35 years ago in your country and mine. Of the colonies of bees alive at that time, the number that had traits for resistance to varroa were vanishingly small as a percentage of the population. Where I live, we spent 10 years with virtually no detectable feral honeybees. Then, a few colonies that could survive started to show up. Breeding from those survivors led to bees that could survive varroa where the bees I had in 1993 could not. I therefore disagree with your statement. If you had been keeping bees in the mid 1980's, you would have seen this play out in the UK.


I was keeping bees then and did see it play out - I lost my 3 hives.

My point was about precision in language. It may be true that "Western honeybees developed without varroa" but to my knowledge it isn't known. It seems to me to be obvious that they have met many kinds of parasites, and have a range of tools to deal with them. 

And it gives the impression of subscribing to the view that they had no defences. They did - clearly. They just needed raising in the population. 

Again, for the sake of accuracy; it wasn't just 'breeding from those survivors' that 'led to bees that could survive varroa'. The ferals did that all on their own - probably much faster and more effectively than anything breeders have achieved. 

Sorry to be picky Dar. I don't mean you're outright wrong. I just like clarity and accuracy. in my view you were more than half right.

Mike

UK


----------



## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

crofter said:


> The only problem with making these words fly is the fact that many species in the past have indeed failed to survive their changing conditions or predators. I think there is strong evidence that more species have become extinct than what currently survive. It is only our wishful thinking that mother nature is on our side and must of necessity provide the honeybee with guaranteed survival in the long term. This simply is unknowable by mortals.


An insect that has survived for 20 millions years is likely to continue. And there is plenty of evidence that bees survive, and adapt to varroa, wherever nature is allowed to take its course. So, with respect, talk of extinction is absurd in the context of varroa and treatments. 

Further; treating on a systematic scale is not only preventing adaptation, but is the _only_ thing preventing adaptation. 

The many thousands of treatment free beekeepers who have succeeded multi year, and who all tell close to the same story, is evidence that arranging for nature take its course works. That's not to say its easy for everyone. You do need resistant bees to start with, and you do need to be able to keep them resistant down the generations (freedom from treated drones), or by regularly importing new resistant queens. 

Mike UK


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Fusion_power said:


> Where I live, we spent 10 years with virtually no detectable feral honeybees. Then, a few colonies that could survive started to show up.


This statement carries broad implications. I have seen arguments to the effect that no feral colonies are resistant; they simply die off and repopulate from treated colonies with regularity so as to appear to be surviving. But if that were the case and yet there was, as you say, a ten year die off, why were the bees not repopulating then with something like the regularity that they are supposed to be doing now. Was there a contemporaneous drastic decline in the population of managed hives from which the feral colonies are supposed to now be repopulating?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

mike bispham said:


> An insect that has survived for 20 millions years is likely to continue.


Huh. :scratch:



> As of July 2017, the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN) lists 343 endangered insect species. 5.7% of all evaluated insect species are listed as endangered. The IUCN also lists 21 insect subspecies as endangered.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_endangered_insects


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

herbhome said:


> dlbrightjr,
> 
> I was hiking on the buffalo yesterday and thought of you. We hiked from Centerpoint down to Granny Henderson's place, across goat trail and to the falls and then up to Compton. I saw a slew of redbud being worked by honey bees. Most of them looked liked regular bees, kind of yellow with bands, but one tree had all black bees with light maybe grey bands. I got within a foot to get a good look at them. Only bees with that description I know of are germans and Caucasians. Maybe there still is a feral hive or two in that area.


Lucky you!!! That is one of my favorite hikes by far. I usually start at the Compton trailhead. I hope some of them are feral, however, there are hives in the area. I know Buffalo River Honey Company keeps some at Possum Trot around 2-3 miles away as the bee flies from centerpoint all the way down to the cabin. He is based out of Compton so I imagine he has that area pretty well covered I have a couple of cams in that area. Awesome hogs, bears, and bucks? I've got to get over there myself one of these days. Bees are now making that difficult. They're taking a lot of time.


----------



## herbhome (Oct 18, 2015)

I see Buffalo River honey yards all over the place. Most of the bees I saw could have been his, but those black bees really caught my attention.

Sweet Wife set up the hike. She's lived here all her life and she turned 66 the day before and I think she had something to prove to herself.


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

herbhome said:


> I see Buffalo River honey yards all over the place. Most of the bees I saw could have been his, but those black bees really caught my attention.
> 
> Sweet Wife set up the hike. She's lived here all her life and she turned 66 the day before and I think she had something to prove to herself.


I understand that. I'll be 47 this year. My son and I are planning on doing the Buffalo, from the time it comes out of a rock to the White river, in June. Around 40 miles will be on foot with about half of that off trail. Around another 110 miles in kayaks. I've talked about doing it since he was young. Five years ago I could have done it with little problem. Right this second I'm not so sure. Next year he wants to do around 250 miles on foot. I hope I'm getting younger!!!!!

I think that the Buffalo area is the most likely place in this area to find a self sustaining feral population. If I ever get out I'm going to watch closely. Thanks for the info.


----------



## herbhome (Oct 18, 2015)

Sweet wife was wondering if you were kin to Chuck? She's known him since school days and we bought our property from him.


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

herbhome said:


> Sweet wife was wondering if you were kin to Chuck? She's known him since school days and we bought our property from him.


PM sent. I've hijacked this thread so many times it must be a crime.


----------



## herbhome (Oct 18, 2015)

I apologize for the hijack. It's rare that I meet a neighbor here.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

herbhome
I didn't start this thread but have to say that I have enjoyed the banter between two home boys. It aint my right to say that you should keep on here but I did enjoy you guys talking about knowing the same areas. If one of you do, in your hiking, find a feral hive, I hope you share it here although if it is like mushroom trees, most hide it like it was gold.
Cheers
gww


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Huh. :scratch:



The argument is basically sound for widely distributed genetically diverse species. Peer a little deeper in why some species become endangered and some patterns generally emerge as to why some are vulnerable, and others aren't. Often to do with habitat loss, small range to begin with and perhaps some specialization, and or some combination of these factors. 

Honeybees don't fit that mold and have diverse strategies to deal with challenges. Not that a new challenge isn't devastating initially but selection finds the combinations of traits that work and populations rebound. The Arnot forest is an example. Of course the key is not continually giving the bees new challenges to overcome as we have been doing.


----------



## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Good point Graham. Is the honeybee among them? 

Is there any scientifically founded reason to thing the honey might be endangered? What does 'endangered' mean? Very endangered, a little bit endangered? 

What is an 'evaluated' insect species? 

We need to know all these things to understand what sort of level of force your quote has on the notion that the honeybee might be threatened with extinction.

Mike


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

mike bispham said:


> We need to know all these things to understand what sort of level of force your quote has on the notion that the honeybee might be threatened with extinction.


I didn't say the honey bee might be threatened with extinction. I was questioning your statement that an insect that ...


mike bispham said:


> An insect that has survived for 20 millions years is likely to continue.


Likely, those other insects on the endangered list have also survived for {_a long time_}- [I'm not so bold as to cite a specific number of years] and yet now _they_ are endangered. Simply having a species exist til now does not imply that the species is likely to continue to exist!


----------



## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I didn't say the honey bee might be threatened with extinction.


Glad we agree on that



Rader Sidetrack said:


> I was questioning your statement that an insect that ... "An insect that has survived for 20 millions years is likely to continue."
> 
> Likely, those other insects on the endangered list have also survived for {_a long time_}- [I'm not so bold as to cite a specific number of years] and yet now _they_ are endangered. Simply having a species exist til now does not imply that the species is likely to continue to exist!


You have a point. Let my try to extend mine:

An insect that has existed for 20 or 30 million years AND is at home all over the world, in a wide range of habitats and climatic conditions, seems pretty robust.

How's that?

Mike

UK


----------

