# Larger queen cells - do they produce larger queens?



## RayMarler

Hi Joseph,
So let me suppose here a bit,
I'm supposing that these cells came out larger than you normally get right?
I'm thinking here that the addition of emerging larva from eggs, inserted into the cell builder, acted as a trigger or primer to get the nurse bees in the cell builder to start producing increased amounts of royal jelly for feeding the increased amount of larva to be fed. Then pulling that frame back out 2 days later left your nurse bees overly producing the royal jelly, so they packed in more than usual to your cell bar cells they were also feeding at the time. Does this make sense? I'm interested to hear what you find on queen size and performance over time. Do you plan on keeping these for yourself for awhile for observing?


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## Joseph Clemens

Yes, these recent cells are much larger. They are about 3/8" longer, though they don't seem to be any noticeably larger in diameter. I too thought that having those nurse bees geared up to feeding all those newly hatched larva, then suddenly only having the queen cells to feed, may have been the trigger for these larger cells.

I am continuing to prep the cell builder with a frame of hatching eggs, and getting the same results (larger cells). I am tracking these cells and the queens they produce. I will probably keep many of them, perhaps even requeening my production hives with these queens, then I can compare their performance with my usual queens.

I've also thought of taking frames of hatching eggs, add them to the cell builder with their resident nurse bees (before this I only added frames of hatching eggs, without their own nurse bees), then leaving these additional nurse bees in the cell builder when I pull the frame of young larva. I wonder if there is a point where the cells produce optimal queens, and beyond this point (more royal jelly or larger cells) just goes to waste?


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## Joseph Clemens

Oldtimer,
The photo in my initial post is a group of my usual sized cells.


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## beekuk

Joseph,thank you for posting this,most interesting......look forward to your future updates.


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## David LaFerney

I have cell envy just from your normal sized cells. 

How long can you keep a cell builder like this productive by adding emerging brood? 

How do you keep it from getting too crowded?

I recently just had my first success raising queens in a 5 frame nuc like this - but I only did one batch.


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## Joseph Clemens

<<How long can you keep a cell builder like this productive by adding emerging brood?>> I'm not sure ->I've been continuously using this same nuc as my primary cell builder starting in the Spring of 2009.

<<How do you keep it from getting too crowded?>> I don't think that it would be possible for them to be "too crowded", the more the merrier. 

<<I recently just had my first success raising queens in a 5 frame nuc like this - but I only did one batch.>> I think raising queens is almost the most fun I've had while beekeeping. 

Initially this cell-builder nuc was in a normal 5-frame medium wooden nuc box. During the Winter of 2009-2010 I moved them into a nuc box built entirely of 1-1/4" thick styrofoam, without a completely screened bottom, just a few cracks near the bottom for ventilation and a slit at one end for the entrance. I'm amazed that they never developed a problem with laying workers -- perhaps because there are some cells of open brood on almost every frame of sealed/emerging brood added to the cell builder nuc.

Now that they are four or five medium frames in a 5-frame deep nuc box, when undisturbed there are lots of bees clustering beneath the frames. During nectar flows I can add a foundationless frame, or plastic frame, every two days, and they will be built into combs.


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## BEES4U

Nice image!:thumbsup:
I read a report, many years ago, that stated that the age of the larvae at time of grafting determined the number of tubules per ovary in the queen.
A well fed queen larvae will have excess royal jelly left in her cell after she emerges.
Good Luck,
Ernie


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## Joseph Clemens

I was just thinking about the questions and answers in my last post.

You'd think that in my cell-builder nuc, by now there would be ten or twenty phoretic mites on each bee. I just keep adding sealed brood and grafted cell cups.


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## brac

Joseph,
Have you ever done a write up on your queen rearing methods, I have gotten bits and pieces from some of your post, but think it would be great to read a full explaination. You always have great looking cells.


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## Joseph Clemens

BEES4U said:


> . . .the age of the larvae at time of grafting determined the number of tubules per ovary in the queen.


Considering that the age of the larva at grafting is the main determining factor in future queen health and fecundity -- larger queen cells may contain a larger reserve of excess royal jelly, but probably aren't indicative of a better developed queen. The larger cells may just be an indicator of better fed queen larva.


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## Joseph Clemens

brac,
I had not yet thought about writing up my queen rearing experiences.

I can't really say that any of what I do in my queen rearing is unique. I read several books about queen rearing, some recently and some several decades ago. I tried to incorporate those ideas that sounded good to me. After trying them, I kept those I liked and dropped those that didn't work for me.

I see what you mean - if I get a chance I'll write it up and post it at one of my web sites.


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## David LaFerney

How about some links to your websites? The information that you have given here - that you can use a nuc as a (high quality) cell builder/finisher for a long period of time by adding emerging brood - is very useful. Especially since it is very much like the method that I'm trying to learn as a hobbyist. 

I was under the impression that the queenless CB hive would "burn out" or somehow stop performing after just a few batches. It's very useful to hear that is not the case - greatly simplifies the process for someone like me that would like to raise queens all season long, but not keep hundreds of mating nucs or make it a full time job.

A simple "This is how I raise Queens" post would be great. That what you are doing isn't unique is eclipsed by the fact that you are currently successfully doing it and are willing to share. There is lots of information that is basically "You could do this" but IMO what is golden is "This is what I do, and it works." With pictures 

Thanks.


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## BEES4U

Here's is an interesting URL about queen quality:

David C. Gilley · David R. Tarpy · Benjamin B. Land
Effect of queen quality on interactions between workers
and dueling queens in honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies
http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/criareinas/07_calidad_reina_efecto_obrras.pdf
Selection of high-quality queens by the workers during
queen development has been demonstrated by Hatch et al.
(1999), who found that during emergency queen rearing
(the process by which workers rear queens from worker
larvae to replace a queen that has died unexpectedly)
workers preferentially destroyed queen cells built from
older worker larvae. Despite selective behavior by the
workers during queen rearing, considerable variation in
quality exists among newly emerged adult queens (Eckert
1934; Clarke 1989; Fischer and Maul 1991). This
variation in quality among queens gives workers the
opportunity to benefit by selecting high quality queens
that are fully developed, when the decision will be most
accurate.
Ernie


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## Joseph Clemens

Until now all my queens were produced in, what I consider, normal sized queen cells. I decided to check them out and see how well these queens were doing.

There seems to be a light honey flow happening right now. Just yesterday I was going in to some of my production hives to feed them pollen substitute patties and discovered that several foundationless frames, which I had given them earlier in the season, but they hadn't been completely drawn, were now completed and full of hatching eggs and young larva. 

Since almost all fifteen of my production hives are headed by queens I raised in February or March 2010 (one or two are later replacements). I was carefully checking to get an idea as to their fecundity and laying patterns. They have all continued producing nice, solid patterns. They also have been keeping, what I consider, nice large brood nests.

Whenever I harvested a comb of sealed brood to use in the cell-builder or to boost a queenless nuc, I would replace it with an empty or brood-less comb. Almost without exception that replacement comb would be layed-up within two or three days. All these hives have remained strong, despite my frequently stealing combs of sealed brood, and their being an almost month-long dearth between the early Spring/Summer honey flow and now a late Summer flow. The only sugar syrup I've been feeding was to my queen cell building nuc.

So, all things considered, it appears that very nice queens can emerge from normal-sized queen cells.

I am yet awaiting the newest queens and observing how they do.


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## lighto

Joseph Clemens said:


> brac,
> I had not yet thought about writing up my queen rearing experiences.
> 
> I can't really say that any of what I do in my queen rearing is unique. I read several books about queen rearing, some recently and some several decades ago. I tried to incorporate those ideas that sounded good to me. After trying them, I kept those I liked and dropped those that didn't work for me.
> 
> I see what you mean - if I get a chance I'll write it up and post it at one of my web sites.


Hi Joseph
Which web sites, do you write Blogs for ? 
David :scratch:


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## Joseph Clemens

Most of my writings about beekeeping for the past several years have been here to the Beesource forums.

One domain I've had for many years, is "cordovan-honeybee.com", but I haven't been updating it since the laptop I configured to work that domain went down because of a simple power supply issue. I now intend to get my butt in gear and repair that laptop, get back to developing that domain to expound on what I have been doing in my beekeeping.


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## Joseph Clemens

Several of those queens from the large cells have emerged, and as predicted by historical observation and research -- queens raised in those larger queen cells were the same size as queens raised in cells of more usual size. Since they are still virgins, they may appear different once mated and laying. I will follow them for awhile to see if they do well.


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## Yuleluder

delete double post


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## Yuleluder

I was able to get some very large cells this year also. I have monitored them throughout the season and have found they are also the same size as queens from other cells.

I believe the larva can only eat so much royal jelly, and the rest is eaten by the worker bees once the queen emerges. Although when virgins hatch in the incubator I have observed them going back into the cells and eating the excess royal jelly.

The larger cells in my opinion are a result of the extra royal jelly and not to accomodate a larger queen.


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## Michael Palmer

Yuleluder said:


> The larger cells in my opinion are a result of the extra royal jelly and not to accomodate a larger queen.


I agree, but with large cells and left over jelly, you know the virgin had all she could eat.


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## Mrmizilplix

what do you do with all the queen cells? do they get 
split up to hatch in individual boxes? I did a split this 
year and didn't know what to do with all the queen cells.
I think there were about 10. could I have put them in 
small boxes with a few drones, and had mated queens
to use or sale???


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## Pugs

Mrmizilplix - Working on the theory that you aren't kidding - No, but you could have put them in mini nucs with a cup or two of bees, let them emerge and mate. Then you'd have a bunch of mated queens.

Pugs


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## Mrmizilplix

Then how do you handle let's say 30-50 queen cells? 
what's the process?


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## lighto

Then how do you handle let's say 30-50 queen cells? 


Hey Mrmizilplix,
Your Request is large in scope. Buy the book : Contemporary Queen Rearing
By Harry H. Laidlaw , Jr Will Answer Alot ! Many feel it is the best Queen rearing book, in publication .
David


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## Joseph Clemens

Anyway, queens seem to have a maximum size limit. My normal size queen cells usually have a reserve of royal jelly, such that there is royal jelly remaining in the bottom of the queen cells even after the queens have emerged. The larger cells just seem to have an even larger reserve of royal jelly remaining after adult queen emergence. Either way I believe the queens produced to be virtually identical.


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## Joseph Clemens

The batch of cells that was growing when I started this thread I had intended to take a photograph of to illustrate the difference. But, I neglected to prime the cell-builder with a frame of young larva, and the cells turned out, normal sized.

Yesterday, Friday, I grafted another set, but had primed them with a frame of hatching eggs and young larva. As I removed the frame of young larva I noticed that they had been very well fed with lots of royal jelly. You'd think that this might deplete the nurse bee's supply, instead of "priming the pump", so to speak. In a few more days I will know if it had the desired effect. If they do so turn out, I will definitely photograph them and add the image to this thread. There is also a modest flow happening, due to a little rain we've had in our vicinity in these past two weeks.


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## David LaFerney

Joseph - After trying a few different methods this year I think a cell builder like yours is what I want to do next year, but I have a couple of questions:

How often do you need to add frames of emerging brood to keep it strong?

Do you get a lot of burr comb on the bottoms of the medium frames being in a deep box? If so, have you ever tried a slatted rack to give the bees cluster space while discouraging burr comb? I hate to waste comb.

Thanks


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## Joseph Clemens

Whenever I manipulate the hive to check on the cells, about every second day, I check any recent frames of emerging brood for developing rouge queen cells, and remove them. As I am doing this I realize that when I don't find any queen cells on newly added frames that the older frames are ready to be switched with fresh ones. The two outermost frames are only partially drawn foundationless frames, the bees continue building them, filling them with nectar and pollen. When these outer combs are completed I replace them with fresh ones - that seems to take care of too much extra wax on the queen cells and the bees desire to extend the medium combs beneath the bottom bars. This way my queen cell builder nucs serve a double duty.


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## David LaFerney

That makes sense - they would rather draw comb in the nest than under it as long as they have room. 

So in theory you could start a new batch of cells as often as every 2-4 (?) days by moving the started ones to a finisher *or* leave them in the same hive for 10 days before changing them out. Right?

It sounds like a simple, effective, scalable system. What if any drawbacks have you found with it? Other than the need to swap brood and check for rogue cells ever 2-3 days - which applies to most systems anyway.


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## Joseph Clemens

Yes, I'm sure it could be used like a "swarm box" is used in some systems, just to get the grafts accepted and the cells started. I leave them in there until they are sealed, and sometimes a few days more.

The only drawback I found are likely the same with just about any system; overlooking a rouge queen cell, having a virgin queen drift to this nuc and then destroy cells. I corrected these problems (more or less), by being exceptionally diligent to search out and destroy rouge cells and I put a nuc "disc" entrance on and rotated it into the queen excluder position - it has helped greatly. The other drawback is to lose track of a batch of cells, leaving them in until one of the virgins emerges and destroys some or all of the growing cells. I once had a situation where I would graft a bar, have the grafts accepted, the cells begin to grow, then the growing larva would suddenly be missing, like the cells were aborted -- I discovered a virgin was patrolling the nuc and evicting queen larva as she found them.

Later this Autumn, I plan to move this cell builder nuc into a nuc of luan walls with 1-1/4" thick outer walls of styrofoam, for the cooler months. I've reconsidered the luan/styrofoam plan -- instead I will see how fastening the styrofoam outside one of the 15/32" plywood nucs works instead.


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## Joseph Clemens

I finally produced another batch of queen cells under optimal conditions (plus), I estimate they are about 3/16" longer than usual nice queen cells -->






Nine grafts produced these seven cells. The other two I placed before they were sealed.


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## David LaFerney

What is your final success percentage - laying queens. 7 out of nine grafts to cells X out of 7 laying queens.

On average.

My last try produced 16 cells from 30 grafts and resulted in 8 laying queens. Not great, but it gives me an idea of how many grafts I need to do to end up with a given number of queens. So I'm wondering how it is with more experience and skill.


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## Tara

Joseph,

About what is the average length of your large cells? Looks like maybe an inch and a half? I was thinking the cup was just very shallowly concave--or is it nearly as deep on the inside as on the outside?

Partially I'm curious, but I'm also wondering how many queen-cell bars I can fit on a medium frame if I tinker with it!

Thanks!


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## Joseph Clemens

David,
I actually had 100% grafts to finished cells, this time. I just moved two into their nucs, so they could be finished by the nucs. I usually get better than 50% grafts to ripe cells, sometimes more, sometimes less. The graft attempt immediately preceding this one, was destroyed, all but one, by another rouge virgin.

Some virgins have emerged with deformed wings -> 
Some disappear from undetermined causes ->

I haven't kept close enough track to definitively answer your questions. But a large percentage of virgins achieve mated/laying status. I'd be happier if all those that did were outstanding queens. Right now I have three, otherwise excellent queens, who each have a damaged leg, I keep them as laying machines, though I wouldn't sell them or use them in a full-size colony. Eventually I will need to remove them and replace them with other queen cells, and hopefully those next queens will be better.

Tara,
Those JZsBZs plastic queen cell cups are, 13/32" deep with the bottoms rounded concave, they are also 9/32" inner diameter. Tomorrow I will measure the three remaining extra-large cells to see what their lengths are.
----------------------------

Update: I measured the three remaining cells from that batch of cells. I didn't need to average them, they were all 20mm of wax extending beyond the plastic cell cups.


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## lakebilly

Joseph,

Post #28 says you neglected to "prime" cell builder. could you explain this please.


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## Joseph Clemens

I call it "priming" when, a day or two before I graft, I give the queen cell builder one or more frames of hatching eggs/less than 3 day old larva and the attending nurse bees. Then I graft and replace these priming frames with the bars/frames of grafts, shaking the nurse bees so they remain with the cell builder. Usually this is a fairly certain way of getting the largest finished cells with the most extra royal jelly.


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## Michael Bush

Hard to say if you'll get bigger queens, but in my experience cell size is not related to queen size. Here is a research paper that queen size is not related to ovarioles:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3398436/


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## lakebilly

Joseph,

I read most everything you post & I even remember some. I can't recall why you said you use 5 frame cell builders. 

I am going to try the cloak board method on some of my hives if I get the time this spring. I have a ten frame top that has been modified to set a 5 frame nuc box over the center. The excluder is part of the top & has a slide in division (cloak) board. A ten frame double brood box on bottom & a 5 frame nuc over the top. 
Seems to me that getting a large volumn of nurse bees into the cell builder would be accomplished w/the dbl 10 frame below. Is low resources the issue w/using a 5 frame?
Having open brood below be problematic w/nurse bees ignoring open brood in cell builder?


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## Oldtimer

Nice work Joseph!


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## Oldtimer

Unfortunately Michael that link would not work for me, I would like to have read it.

I'm wondering how they structured their work, because in my experience, the bigger the better, and I read elsewhere a study showing larger queens DO have more oviarolies. 
As the size of a queen can vary considerably with both seasonal considerations, and local hive situation, but she will always have the same number of oviarolies, we could say, depending on how they did the experiment, that queen size does not affect it. 

But when I see new virgins, the bigger the thorax, I know the bigger queen she will end up, and this does provide a guide to future performance. So I've always assumed more oviarolies, consistent with the study I read. Got to admit that I haven't chopped up any queens and counted myself, way beyond my expertise.


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## Michael Bush

>Unfortunately Michael that link would not work for me, I would like to have read it.

It works for me... not sure why it won't for you.

Here is the abstract:
"Histological Estimates of Ovariole Number in Honey Bee Queens, Apis mellifera, Reveal Lack of Correlation with other Queen Quality Measures

"Jeffrey T. Jackson,1 David R. Tarpy, and Susan E. Fahrbach

"Abstract

"Published estimates of the number of ovarioles found in the ovaries of honey bee, Apis mellifera L. (Hymenoptera: Apidae) queens range from 100 to 180 per ovary. Within the context of a large-scale study designed to assay the overall quality of queens obtained from various commercial sources, a simple histology-based method for accurate determination of ovariole number was developed and then applied to a sample of 75 queens. Although all 10 commercial sources evaluated provided queens with ovariole numbers within the expected range, ovariole number was found to vary significantly across sources. Overall, and within most of the individual samples, there was no correlation of ovariole number with other morphological attributes such as thoracic width, wing length, or wet weight. Queens from two of the sources, however, displayed a significant negative relationship between wet weight and ovariole number. This study provides baseline data on ovariole number in commercial honey bee queens in the United States at a time when honey bee populations are declining; the method described can be used in studies relating ovariole number in queens to egg production and behavior."


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## Joseph Clemens

I use 5-frame nuc boxes for cell builders, primarily because it is easier to cram lots of nurse bees closely together, and I use deep boxes with three frames of sealed/emerging brood and two medium frames with two 15-cell, cell bars, so I can get sixty nice cells from the least amount of nurse bees. I've tried using cloak boards, etc. But just can't justify the extra effort and complexity, when 5-frame deep nuc boxes filled with nurse bees works so well.

I find the most important issue with growing queen cells is crowding as many nurse bees as possible into the smallest space suitable - then providing them everything they need to raise the cells. Nurse bees will not ignore open brood, either above, below, or adjacent to cells.


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## Oldtimer

OK well if that's what they found Michael, can't argue. However those ratty little ones I pinch? I think I'll go with my gut and keep pinching them. I have seen how they perform. Not going to kid my customers there's a reverse correlation I might go out of business. I do know how to produce ratty little queens though, it's easy. . Just do the reverse of Joseph Clemens. But I think I'll stick with something closer to the Clemens method.
Haven't personally counted any ovarioles though, perhaps there are other factors involved.


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