# Rough Sawn Hives



## Hooday (Feb 25, 2009)

Apparently, painting hive boxes traps moisture in the hive, contributing to hive box rot - (especially with box-joint corners.) Whereas an unpainted body surely is more breathable; a better thing for both the box and the bees.

However, smooth, planed surfaces do not last long in outdoor conditions, (a major reason beekeepers paint them.) A planed surface will last maybe three years before totally succumbing to deterioration. 

Yet, seeing as how rough sawn planks last decades in barns and out-buildings - in full sun and rain - wouldn't they last just as long as hive bodies?

Has anyone ever used rough-sawn lumber for hive boxes? I would really like to know.

Also, different wood apparently has different longevities. I've heard some say poplar is a very poor hive box wood, but others say it lasts a long time on barn walls and the like. I think the naysayers are judging them as painted, planed boxes, (which likely deteriorate quickly from the inside.)

I've also heard pine - both white and yellow - are good box wood choices. Again, does anyone have any experience using these woods - rough-sawn and unpainted - as hive bodies?


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## PeeVee (Dec 10, 2009)

I'm not currently painting the new boxes I'm making. I too feel that painting may do more harm than good. They are Eastern White Pine. They will be planed enough to bring to 7/8 thickness. I guess I'll see how long they last. Somewhere I recently saw reference to bees painting the inside of rough boxes more readily with propalis thus sealing that surface.

I have rough cut pine boards on my garage that are ok after 25 years. I think the longevity of boards on barns, etc. may have more to do with being hung with the grain vertical allowing the moisture to channel off rather than being trapped in horizontal grain.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Hooday said:


> Apparently, painting hive boxes traps moisture in the hive, contributing to hive box rot - (especially with box-joint corners.) Whereas an unpainted body surely is more breathable; a better thing for both the box and the bees.


Any supporting info for this? 

The reason I ask is that I am living in a hundred year old painted clapboard house and though it seems to have held up well over these years, well, you've gotten me a little worried....

But seriously, I've seen little in the way of catastrophic failure in painted boxes. How serious a problem do you believe this to be? How is an unpainted box "a better thing" over a properly ventilated, painted hive?

Wayne


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Most barns have a bit of eave to keep rain, sun and most degrading forces off the siding. Aren't the boards unplaned because it is cheaper not because it lasts longer? Creosote poles sure last longer down south than untreated. Come to think of it my cedar shingles, the deck, and the fence last longer with sealer. Planed wood sheds water better in my experience and I never paint the inside so the moisture has somewhere to go. I would like to see your hive with an eave or maybe a wrap-around porch. A little porch swing for the warm evenings! A wind vane on top, now that would be the coolest hive ever!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have used rough sawn wood for hives. I have painted and not painted it. I have used cedar and pine. I don't see that it lasts any more or less but it does get propolized more inside.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Hooday said:


> Apparently, painting hive boxes traps moisture in the hive, contributing to hive box rot - (especially with box-joint corners.) Whereas an unpainted body surely is more breathable; a better thing for both the box and the bees.


As a former yacht refinisher I have my own opinion concerning wood "breathing"... 

Remember that in the winter the bees will be collecting water from the condensation on the hive walls. I seal up all of the end-grain of my boxes with Titebond glue. IMO wet (unpainted) wood in the winter would loose some of it's "R" value.

If you go "au naturel" I would certainly use Titebond 3 on and over the joints. Otherwise the joints will do what they naturally want to do... absorb water.


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## Hooday (Feb 25, 2009)

waynesgarden said:


> Any supporting info for this?
> 
> The reason I ask is that I am living in a hundred year old painted clapboard house and though it seems to have held up well over these years, well, you've gotten me a little worried....
> 
> ...


Your comment about well ventilated is exactly the point. 

Bee hives have lots of moisture, due to evaporation and expiration. Solid bottom boards and top covers exaserbate this situation, leading to a lot of moisture build up and interior deterioration - especially at the box joints.

Using screened bottom and top boards helps with this. (I assume your house is likewise ventilated. ) But many hives are not, and suffer internal rot accordingly.

Boxes with rabetted joints, left rough-sawn and unpainted, should be better ventilated, due to the lack of latex paint covering the pores. I'm trying to determine whether they will last as long as planed, painted boxes with box joints.


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## Hooday (Feb 25, 2009)

BeeCurious said:


> As a former yacht refinisher I have my own opinion concerning wood "breathing"...
> 
> Remember that in the winter the bees will be collecting water from the condensation on the hive walls. I seal up all of the end-grain of my boxes with Titebond glue. IMO wet (unpainted) wood in the winter would loose some of it's "R" value.
> 
> If you go "au naturel" I would certainly use Titebond 3 on and over the joints. Otherwise the joints will do what they naturally want to do... absorb water.


Good comment on the joints. I plan on using rabetted joints, which expose less end grain than box joints. Running a little Titebond on them ought to be a lot easier and cheaper than putting two good coats of paint on them all.


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## Hooday (Feb 25, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> I have used rough sawn wood for hives. I have painted and not painted it. I have used cedar and pine. I don't see that it lasts any more or less but it does get propolized more inside.


Thanks for the input, Michael.

Any differences between rabetted and box joints?

Cedar is supposed to last *much *longer than pine. Is that your experience?

What is the overall longevity for the average hive box, in your experience?


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## Hooday (Feb 25, 2009)

PeeVee said:


> I have rough cut pine boards on my garage that are ok after 25 years. I think the longevity of boards on barns, etc. may have more to do with being hung with the grain vertical allowing the moisture to channel off rather than being trapped in horizontal grain.


I've seen horizontal clapboard siding - I don't know how many years old ... perhaps at least 50 - holding up well enough, even after so many years. Vertical siding as well. (Poplar seems to be a very strong choice, here in NC.)

Some have told me Poplar is a poor choice for hive boxes, because it breaks down quickly. Yet, as mentioned, many pole barns and sheds have poplar siding that holds up quite well over the years - exposed and unpainted. In fact, some have said poplar holds up so well because the grain is twisted and tough - it does not cut well after a year or so of weathering.

Thus, my comment about internal moisture being the main culprit for hive box deterioration. Sustained exposure to water will break down virtually any wood. (Exotics like teak and cypress notwithstanding.)

I'm honestly trying to discern this issue for hive boxes. Any experienced comments are greatly appreciated.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

When the bees propolize the inside of the hive, which they do more with rough wood, it will be sealed stronger than any paint or coating you can buy. Once sealed on the inside with propolis, the outside is the only surface exposed and will swell when wet cupping or warping concave to the dry inside. I use old brood comb as a coating that is a combination of beeswax and propolis, melted in a crock pot and brushed on. It not only seals and preserves the wood but attracts bees with that "downhome, home sweet hive" smell better than lemongrass oil.


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## mrspock (Feb 1, 2010)

What kind of tool do you use to paint this on the hive? I imagine the bristles on the paintbrushes I have would melt in hot wax...


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Plastic and foam brushes melt. I prefer a good natural bristle brush any day. I use my oldest most warn out brush for the comb concoction. It is more like a tar broom.


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## Hooday (Feb 25, 2009)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> I use old brood comb as a coating that is a combination of beeswax and propolis, melted in a crock pot and brushed on. It not only seals and preserves the wood but attracts bees with that "downhome, home sweet hive" smell better than lemongrass oil.


Is propolis water repellent the way wax is? I've never known?

Mike Bush coats his hives in beeswax and gum rosin. Supposed to last a long time.

I'm wanting to simply use rough sawn exterior to avoid painting or coating at all - depending on the roughness for longevity. The inside I don't mind planing relatively smoothly. My understanding is bees coat the inside with propolis by course. I suppose a rough surface gets more of a coating, but I'm not certain of its effects on hive box longevity.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Propolis does not even dissolve in boiling water.


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

Need lye to dissolve propolis.


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## greasyspider (May 31, 2015)

kbfarms said:


> Need lye to dissolve propolis.


I read that propolis will dissolve in alcohol. If I am not mistaken, propolis is one of the ingredients in the finish on Stradivarius Violins.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

As a former construction super, here is what I know about paint. I paint the exterior and edges of my boxes with one coat of primer and 2 coats of exterior latex. I will leave the interior decorating to the bees. I do know people that paint both sides, however. The difference between exterior and interior latex is the resin. Interior resin is harder to resist dings and dangs, while exterior resin is more flexible to take up the expansion and contraction of the wood due to moisture, etc. 
Latex paint is waterproof, but not vapour proof, which is why you use a separate vapour barrier on the warm side of your house insulation. Any water that finds its way through the propolis and into the wood, therefore, should find its way out through the paint.
Three thin coats of paint are far better than two thick ones, BTW, and it's important to take a brush and fill all the cracks and holes in the wood.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Any differences between rabetted and box joints?

Yes. But as far as longevity, I'd say it's not as clear as you might like... The box joints get soft sooner, because it absorbs more water, but are mechanically stronger. It seems to kind of even out. The rabbet exposes less grain and doesn't get soft as soon, but the screws (or nails) have only 3/8" of wood to hold them and then only in one direction so they are mechanically weaker to start with and it takes less rot to cause them to come apart. All in all I decided I liked the box joints better.

>Cedar is supposed to last much longer than pine. Is that your experience?

It does not last "much" longer than pine. I'm not even sure it lasts any longer, but it might. The difference would be slight. I think old growth cedar, old growth redwood and old growth cyprus last longer, but they are no longer available.

>What is the overall longevity for the average hive box, in your experience?

In Western Nebraska I would say maybe 50 years, certainly 30 years. In Eastern Nebraska I'd say 20 years if you don't let them contact dirt, of course. In Arizona...? It's water the is the issue, of course and it rains a lot more here than it did in Western Nebraska.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Michael Bush said:


> The rabbet exposes less grain and doesn't get soft as soon, but the screws (or nails) have only 3/8" of wood to hold them and then only in one direction so they are mechanically weaker to start with


I install screws both directions on my rabbet joints. You just have to angle the screws on one side a little bit. Nothing wrong with rabbet joints.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> In Western Nebraska I would say maybe 50 years, certainly 30 years. In Eastern Nebraska I'd say 20 years.



I agree. 30 to 50 years with any type joint, most common woods (including cottonwood), and most any good paint, (any color).

I use more poplar than anything else, since it is readily available and cheap.. Slightly heavier, but, not noticable unless you are handling lots of boxes very, very, often.

I really believe that too many people are fretting over how long a box will last, type of glue, type of paint, color of paint, fasteners (nails vrs screws) etc. These are minor questions when compared to the issues we face with bees today. Virtually any wood, any glue, and any paint, will outlast the average beekeepers and their grandchildren. Bee equipment should be looked at like any other factor of production. Equipment will need to be replaced at some point, but I would say, ENJOY beekeeping, don't spend a lot of time worrying if your equipment will last 30 years or ONLY 29 1/2 years.

Life is too short to worry about how long your bee box will last.

cchoganjr


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> It does not last "much" longer than pine. I'm not even sure it lasts any longer, but it might. The difference would be slight


The best wood shakes and siding have been made from Western Red Cedar since day 1, in spite of pine and other woods being cheaper and more plentiful. We have unfinished buildings here in Nova Scotia that have been standing up to the elements for 100 years and more. They are clad with cedar for a reason.
Unfortunately, I can build a pine box for a quarter the price of cedar, so if it only lasts 25 years, I will be money ahead.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Unpainted wood absorbs much more water than painted wood, and since the bees paint the wood on the inside whether you want them to or not, you have serious warping and cracking problems here with unpainted wood -- this is much worse with kiln dried lumber since it will absorb water back to equilibrium value from the very low water content left after kilning.

Unpainted pine around here only lasts three or four years before it starts to rot at the joints, which are inevitably gaping open from warping. We have wet springs and falls and baking heat in August and September with fairly wet warm winters, perfect conditions for fungal consumption of pine. 

Painting keeps the wood and joints dry, and that makes the boxes last much longer. Old growth cypress is very rot resistant, so is high resin content pine. But cheap wood will last a long, long time if you keep it painted and dry (no leaks at the joints, boxes aligned to keep water out of the cracks between boxes). Paint is cheaper than boxes.

Peter


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Well stated psfred.... agree.

cchoganjr


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I tried unpainted on a couple of hives that had home built boxes. My problem was where the two boxes met. Water would run down the side of an unpainted box and hit the seam where there was another box below it or a bottom board....something like that. The water slowed down and seeped into the wood. After a couple of years, the boxes got a little spongy in those areas. The same concept holds true for painted boxes but they seemed to shed water faster and dry faster. The worst problems were at the box joints since, as the water slowed, there was more area for the water to seep into.

My rough sawed barn siding is now painted but had been left unpainted for a long time. However, I have to say that the old pine boards had very tight grain compared to pine today. Huge difference. Nailing those old pine boards is real work. It's just not the same pine today and I have to believe that it makes a difference when it comes to water absorption and longevity.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

Ravenseye said:


> …I have to say that the old pine boards had very tight grain compared to pine today. Huge difference. Nailing those old pine boards is real work. It's just not the same pine today and I have to believe that it makes a difference when it comes to water absorption and longevity.


A few of things that might explain this:

As a tree grows, successive growth rings become narrower, so your old barn boards were probably sawn from much larger logs than are available today.
Trees grow more slowly in colder climates, and the growth rings are thinner. The wood is stronger, too. It might depend on where your lumber was harvested.
Wood also continues to shrink for many years after it's milled, so the grain is a bit tighter.
Wood also gets tougher and more brittle as it ages, so nailing it will split it more readily than when it's fresh.
Hope this makes sense.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Barns are typically fairly open with plenty of air flow. Also, barns are rarely used as a dehydrating chamber.

Alex


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## Tom06- (May 11, 2013)

I was told once that old timers liked to use Yellow Poplar for building log cabins as it was such a long lasting wood. I have seen old cabins still standing in the West Virginia woods with no roofs or floors but with good logs.
You might try to find someone who still sells it.
We moved and rebuilt a log home years ago and I got to know the old mountain men who moved it and restacked the logs.


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## Boomhawr (Jul 28, 2014)

The one I just finished building, I sealed inside and out with plain ol' linseed oil, then painted. The box was only painted outside, of course, but was linseed oiled inside. 2 coats. I figured, since it worked well on rifle stalks and such, should be good on hives. I also asked at tge bee supply store (one of the bigger named companies with multiple locations across the country), and was told it would work good. But it was only finished a week ago, so it will be awhile to see if it does any better or not.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Tulip poplar heartwood is very termite resistant, although not super rot resistant. Keep it dry in a log house and the termites won't bother it, and will also tend to stay out of anything built over it since they won't eat the poplar.

Finding a substantial supply might be a problem, Tulip poplar doesn't generate heartwood very fast -- sapwood stays stapwood for a couple decades before it turns into heartwood. Takes a very large tree to have a big section of heartwood in it.

Lovely stuff to work with, but more expensive and no more rot resistant than resiny pine.

Peter


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## Boomhawr (Jul 28, 2014)

Also, my first hive (bought prebuilt and painted) still looks good, but the unpainted top feeder (the kind that looks like a super) started looking rough on inside ANDout side. I painted the outside now. The hive still looks great, though.


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## Adam.ak (Mar 30, 2021)

BeeCurious said:


> As a former yacht refinisher I have my own opinion concerning wood "breathing"...
> 
> Remember that in the winter the bees will be collecting water from the condensation on the hive walls. I seal up all of the end-grain of my boxes with Titebond glue. IMO wet (unpainted) wood in the winter would loose some of it's "R" value.
> 
> If you go "au naturel" I would certainly use Titebond 3 on and over the joints. Otherwise the joints will do what they naturally want to do... absorb water.


Yes , reducing the risk of condensing ice on the inside of the hive body


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## n8app155 (Jun 3, 2020)

We use white oak red oak maple pine and poplar for hive bodies planed on the out side rough on the inside.We repaint every 2 or 3 years some of our hives are at least 15 tears old.


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