# SC from scratch



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It seems like with sc foundation and sc bees I should be OK, but then some posts make it sound like I might need to do one regression anyway depending on what the girls do. Thoughts? 

I think that sums it up. You can't know how stablized the bees are on small cell until you see them draw comb. If it's nice 4.9mm or smaller then you're set.

>Also saw a post from a while back asking about the "accuracy" of sc package bees (are they really sc) and didn't see much feedback. Is a sc package going to be worth it (this is related to question #11 I'm guessing)?

If they are 5.0mm or so then you'll need another regression. But most of the people buying small cell packages have said that even if the bees they got were 5.0mm or even 5.1mm bees they still draw 4.9mm ok. So probably they will do fine right out of the chute.

>And, just 'cuz I always need to know the "why", another question. From reading, my impression is that sc bees are that way because of the comb in which they are reared; that is, the cell size is a determinant with the developing larvae (and nurse bees) to cause smaller bees, and it's not a genetic or racial disposition. Is this impression accurate?

Basically, yes. From my experience any European Honey Bee (EHB) will build small cells if you let them and the bees raised in those cells will be smaller.

But that doesn't mean that some strains of bees aren't more inclined to go smaller. The feral survivor bees seem more inclined from my experience, but I had no problem regressing Italians, Russians, Carniolans and Cordovans.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Beauty; thanks! I have some LC foundation for supers... any harm in using them "upstairs"? And has anyone had experience they'd share in purchasing sc packages?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't use any excluders, so I don't use any large cell foundation.

I suppose if you're going to use an excluder and the queen can't lay there it wouldn't hurt, but then the bees are creatures of habit. Dee Lusby thinks it confuses them building different sized cells.

I am tempted to try using drone foundation in the supers and give them enough in the brood nest to satisfy the queen. She will not be as prone to lay more drones, if they have enough already and it's easier to extract.

But I have never tried that without an excluder since the first time I accidently put drone brood in a super (before I regressed) and the queen laid a lot of drone up there. But if she had enough drone already I don't think it would be a problem.

I've also used 7/11 in the supers with no excluder, but haven't tried it with regressed bees. They might be more likely to use it for drone. 7/11 is between worker and drone size and the queen usually won't lay in it at all. If she does she lays drones.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Is it adequate for getting drone cells to cut short some of the foundation, leaving space which could be drawn with drone comb? I've seen this described in some of the literature (usually as a mite management tool), and I don't see drone-sized sc foundation in the catalogs. I've also been discouraged by Dadant from exploring sc as a beginner "for a number of reasons". I'll get more info from them today as time allows. 

I tend to be very conscientious and research very thoroughly when I commit to a new project, so I'm optimistic about being able to pull off sc, but what beginner pitfalls might be anticipated with sc foundation specifically? I don't know of folks in my area using it, so mentoring may be limited (though a meeting is coming up and maybe I'll find someone with experience). Thanks for all the support!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is it adequate for getting drone cells to cut short some of the foundation, leaving space which could be drawn with drone comb?

For the purposes of extracting, it won't matter how large the drone comb is, so I'd just used the standard 6.6mm drone foundation available.

If you want drone comb for the purpose of raising SC drones, I'd just leave a gap at the bottom of the foundation and let the bees decide how much and what size.

>what beginner pitfalls might be anticipated with sc foundation specifically?

The biggest mistake is to assume just because you put large cell bees on small cell comb that there will be no mites. Until you have them drawing 4.9mm cells and you have those in the center of the brood nest, you will stil have to control the mites somehow. Since most people doing SC don't want to use chemicals that means Drone magnet or some other organic alternative. I think that's what Dadant is concerned about too. That people will buy the foundation, use it and be disappointed because they didn't finish the regression and they didn't handle the mites at all in the mean time. And AFTER they are regressed there will still be some mites. Just not enough to worry about. But until you reach that point, as evidenced by small mite drop counts, I think you should continue to monitor the mites (even if you aren't regressing) and take steps if the population of Varroa gets too high.

But then I would give the same advice for any method of Varroa control from Checkmite and Apistan to FGMO.

You have to monitor to see if the method you are using is working for you. All of these, Apistan, Checkmite, FGMO etc. have been reported to fail under some circumstances.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Sounds very reasonable; I understand from a business' point how they have to anticipate folks who'll take any claim of benefit as a magic bullet guarantee. I've dealt with that myself. 

How big a gap, on how many frames, would allow sufficient space for drone production to satisfy the queen (and help ameliorate Varroa when it's needed)?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How big a gap, on how many frames, would allow sufficient space for drone production to satisfy the queen (and help ameliorate Varroa when it's needed)?

Dee Lusby uses this as a standard setup. She leaves 1/2" gap at the bottom of every frame.

Since I run all mediums, if I use foundation (I usually don't) I cut the deep 4.9mm in half. This leaves a 1" gap at the bottom on the medium frames. They will fill it in with either drone or worker depending on what they want at the time. Since I'm just as happy with foundationless or small cell starter strips or blank starter strips, I'm not real worried about what they build there.

But if you want to use drone as both satisfying the bees' desire for drones and a possible way of controling and monitoring mites, you could put in a whole frame of drone foundation. If you're hoping for mating from your drones, then I'd let them build their own or you might prefer to use 7/11 for your SC drone foundation. But for controling mites plain drone foundation will work.

The advantage to all the drone on one frame is you can pull it if there are a lot of mites and freeze it to get rid of them. If there aren't a lot of mites you can let them emerge and satisfy the bees' urge for drones. You can uncap a few from time to time and see how infested they are. An occasional mite is normal. If there are several in each cell, I'd freeze it.


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## shoefly (Jul 9, 2004)

Where do you get sc (4.9mm) or drone (6.6mm) deep and shallow foundation? Thanks


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Where do you get sc (4.9mm)

Dadant makes it. Dadant and Brushy Mt sell. it. It only comes in Deeps. I cut it in half to put in mediums and leave a 1" gap at the bottom.

http://www.dadant.com/catalog/default.php?osCsid=bcfb07a7304895c43f7b59c53e50731a&cPath=38

At the bottom of the page.

http://www.beeequipment.com/search.asp

Search for product code 275 or 278 depending on how much you want to buy.

> or drone (6.6mm) deep and shallow foundation? 

I think everyone has drone in plastic, wax, pierco etc. But I've only seen it in deeps. You'd have to cut it down for mediums.

But here is Dadant's:

http://www.dadant.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=52


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