# Do you like patties on top or on bottom?



## Matt Beekman (Dec 15, 2007)

I was wondering where other beekeepers feed their patties this time of year (prior to almonds). This time of year I have always put patties in the middle of the brood nest between the two supers and have gotten good results. Whenever I have tried to feed on top my consumption rate drops dramatically. Some beekeepers I know feed patties with a high sugar content and place them on top and still get reasonable consumption rates i.e. about a pound a week but I have always wondered how much actual brood they are generating. If you feed on top, how much brood do you see getting generated?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: Do you like it on top or on bottom?*

ole com'on Matt "short staw" Beekman....  We all know in-between is where the action is.


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## Matt Beekman (Dec 15, 2007)

*Re: Do you like it on top or on bottom?*

Periodically I like to challenge my basic assumptions. Plus on top would be easier on my back.


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

*Re: Do you like it on top or on bottom?*

Top,

To me the math doesn't work for the additional labor and time to split each hive. Plus its a killer on the backs of me & crew. 

Always good to ask if the additional work generates additional returns and if that worth it go for it.


We do add essential B oils ( ie HoneyB Healthy) to sub, which I find increases consumtion.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: Do you like it on top or on bottom?*

Gee, I think the thread should have read.... my back.. my back. 

Well.... we put on six-seven pound patties starting on Jan 4th, that would be in the middle, some have none left... YOU DO THE MATH


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## Action (Jan 8, 2005)

*Re: Do you like it on top or on bottom?*

Middle!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: Do you like it on top or on bottom?*

dd post


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Monday, January 17, 2011
I place the patties between the lower and upper brood chambers because I want the patties in proximity of the brood nest.
If the bees get a protracted cold spell the patties on the top of a double are worthless!

Ernie


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

I want patties within 2 inches of open brood.


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

Remember the math is ROI, Return on Investment

And not to be one of those beeks who looks old at 45, can still play with our children and has a life outside this business.

Do not want to get in long discussion on this, Matt has a very key point to all of our businesses, we must from time to time review our pratices to make sure they work in our own operations.

Frame count is not the only answer, their needs to be a purpose to the count and the cost of labor and inputs to get the results. 

So, in short we do it on top, feed twice as many hives in the same time and get the frame count we need. With time to play.


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## Matt Beekman (Dec 15, 2007)

Larry are you feeding hives in so. cal? If so, can't compare that to the valley. How much brood do you think you are getting with each round of supplement. How much are you putting on each time and how long are they taking to eat it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

On top of cluster.


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

Well boys and girls I am a new bee keeper, and dont profess to know much but I just got back this morning in the wee hours from visiting Family in the Sacramento area and a couple of beeks. Keith Jarret included. While picking up sub Keith offered to take me to see some of his bees, We went to a large pasture with maybe a thousand hives spread all around. I had my pic of hives to inspect. they were wall to wall bees. so we went on a bit and there was some 4 box hives, low and be hold they were jam packed wall to wall also. Later in the trip I went to visit Honey-4-all when I told him about the size of keiths hives he just chuckled, and said I told you that before you went up there. I dont know if he has a witch doctor with a bone in his nose and a rubber chicken or what, But I saw what I saw. Keith also told me that bye streamling his operation that he doesnt use alot of hired help... man thats keeping costs down and what a return on investment. I may fall on my face as a beek but I am spending alot of time to find beeks to help me who are doing well. Maybe Jim Lyon is right and Keith isnt from this planet, just hope he sticks around long to for me to learn a few tricks..:lookout:


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

I put my patties in the middle. or how about this? on top of a single! 

After my last honey crop of the year i pull to a single plug them up with syrup and keep patties on them. a month later dec 21 (solstice) give them the room they need pollen and feed and they with will be out of the gate at a pace you cant imagine. 
now its pretty simple just keep going around with sub and buckets we start splitting in two weeks


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

Matt, Yes we feed in so cal. 

Hives that have not used protien sub, currently have 2 frames of brood, hives that have beens feed twice, 1 st wk of dec. then last week of dec. have 5 to 6 frames. 

Usually the protien is gone in about a week. We add about 1 1/2 lbs per round, but typically do have some pollen coming in also.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Tuesday, January 18, 2011
93010 zip code.
The high and low temperatures have been unseasonably warm for this time of the year.
(80 degrees F)
Locally, we have experienced some very cold killing temperatures in mid January. (19 to 25 degrees.)
Even with warm temperatures I have been placing 3 to 4 pounders between hive bodies. I have fed a few 6 pounders.
If you are going to feed, put it where the bees can have access 24/7.
For those of you in the colder regions, including the S.J.V.a patty on top the hive is a waste of material and wages.

Ernie


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

This winter I just started experimenting/comparing the difference with pattie placement. Between the bottom two brood boxes vs. the very top of the world and so far I have noticed a lot healthier hives with less dead bees and a lot faster consumption of the patties placed in between the brood nest. It also keeps the cluster down low where they belong, instead of living at the very top in the moisture zone. 
Don't do all that heavy lifting to place patties in between, open the door and slide the patties in (this is my next experiment!).
Yes, I am actually going to try a 3/4" spacer (rim) in between the brood boxes with a rotating back door. I know what you are thinking splitting the brood boxes apart with a shim is a no no, but I am going to try it on a few hives first before going for the whole works. :s:doh:
Actually this is not my ideal, as I read about a beek doing this in ABJ or Culture back some years ago????
The only difference is I think he had the feeding rim on top of the world.
If this works???, A Beek could feed 500+ colonies a day by himself!

Yes, I would appreciate your feedback ecspecially from anybody that has tried this already??
Thanks! Mtn. Bee


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Why bother with a top box? Do you really think the winter cluster is going to jump a 3/4 air gap to get to the honey above?

_A Beek could feed 500+ colonies a day by himself!_

Keith Jarrett has a YouTube video of feeding patties to hives. Why not hire someone to help you, and do it the way he does it? One guy breaks the boxes apart, and tilts the top box back, and the other guy sticks the patty in, and you close the hive back up.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

They will cross that 3/4" gap when there is comb/honey for them on the sides (approx 3 frame width).
And 500 + was just a number I threw out could be 3000 + instead per day?
The rim would also keep the beek from opening the hive boxes in cold winter weather, which is not a good ideal for the Northern Beeks.

Just thinking outside the box and trying some different things! :thumbsup:


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

any issues with splitting the cluster when putting it in the middle? Getting ready to make up about 1000lbs and want to try putting it in the middle instead of on top.


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## bfriendly (Jun 14, 2009)

I am curious about splitting the cluster also. Obviously many beeks do it with out (many) obvious downsides or losses. 

Also I am curious about feeding sub to small / very small clusters. What do you do when feeding and you come to a colony of 2 or 3 frames of bees late winter? I have found pollen sub (SOMETIMES) seems to bee the kiss of death for these colonies, when put on these hives if they are not flying.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Sure, the issues are you have to crack the boxes apart and if you fed your bees descently, the top box is heavy. You kinda get stung and you need to smoke the bees off the frames to avoid crushing them. Other than that it's easy peasy.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Feeding patties to small clusters is their kiss of death. Better to hold off for natural pollen.

Jean-Marc


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

> Feeding patties to small clusters is their kiss of death. Better to hold off for natural pollen.<

Jean-Marc, could you explain why? Thanks.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I'm not sure I understand 100% why they die , but I've killed enough that way to know that it kills them (talking hundreds upon hundreds of colonies over years. Every year I kill a few more just so I don't forget that patties kills weak hives.

Remember that at that time of year when beekeepers put patties on hives, those bees are already old. The key for the survival of the colony is that the first generation that the bees make has to be healthy and must replace the bees that die off in order for the colony to maintain numbers.

When the cluster is small and you put a patty on, the bees start raising brood. The number of bees is too small and they expend a lot of energy trying to keep the brood warm. This wears out the bees quickly. Keep in mind that beekeepers usually put patties on in early spring before natural pollen comes in. It is also cool at night and it may not even be very warm in the daytime, so it's pretty tough on the bees. These colonies are already challenged, they are weak.

Those same colonies if left alone would not start brooding up for another 4-6 weeks when temperatures are a lot milder. These are the colonies that grow very slowly and may not produce much surplus honey compared to other hives in the same yard. The population peaks to late.

Lastly I was told that bee pollen contains more calories per gram than does other protein sources like brewers yeast and soy flour. That would mean that when bees brood up and start eating pollen they can generate more heat thru digestion than they could if they were eating pollen substitutes. Again I was told this by a friend who has a laboratory and apparently did these tests.

Hope this helps

Jean-MArc


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Jean-Marc,

Thanks for taking the time to explain that. I didn't take all that into consideration. Now I'll know, but I'm sure I'll have to kill a few each year to remind myself too.

Thanks, Steve


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