# Paper combine results in lots of dead bees, what did I do wrong?



## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

you used one sheet of newspaper? I used three and did not nick it. wonder if one sheet with a hole wasn't enough time for her pheromones to soak in.
possibly other things at work here too like attempted robbing. As long as the queen is still alive and laying they will recover.


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## Ski (Jan 18, 2007)

I have started in the last few years from something I read here on Beesource and that is putting an entrance above the newspaper for the top hive to go in and out.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I've always used a single sheet, with a couple hive tool rips for starter holes. A light sprinkle of syrup seems to help with acceptance.


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

I'm not very experienced at combining either, but I did do one the other day. I had a queenrite nuc and was introducing it to a 2 week queenless colony and I wasn't sure if there were any laying workers or not even though there was no sign of one. I took my nuc and put all 8 frames in a 10 frame box and screened the enterance shut late that night and then in the morning I took it out and put it on the bottom board and newspapered the top with a single paper with slits. I put all the other boxes on top and left the screen on until the next evening, but I have holes in my top box so all those bees are able to travel freely just not able to get in the bottom without chewing through the paper. The next day I checked to see if they had chewed through yet and they had so I went in to see how the queen was doing and there were plenty of bees and she was walking around like she owned the place. I took off the lower enterance screen and all back to normal now. Not sure if it was the right way but it worked for me.


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## spieker (Jun 26, 2009)

Often, besides putting a few small slits in the newspaper, I mix a little Honey Be Healthy in water and spray my newspaper lightly. My thinking is that this causes the whole hive to take on the HBH scent. So far this has worked well for me.


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Robbin said:


> What did I do wrong or what else could I have done to reduce the acceptance?


For better success when combining try to do it when there is a nectar flow on.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Are you absolutely certain that the nucs you combined were queenless? 

Can you give us more detail or background on what brought you to the decision to combine?


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Are you absolutely certain that the nucs you combined were queenless?


:thumbsup:


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Are you absolutely certain that the nucs you combined were queenless?
> 
> Can you give us more detail or background on what brought you to the decision to combine?


They were all nucs that I had tried to raise grafted queen cells in, but the virgins didn't return from their mating flight which is a big problem for me. Two had dwindled down to less than two frames of bees, no eggs, larva or capped brood, so hopelessly queenless. The third was the largest, but still less than 3 frames of bees. I had only given them a couple frames of comb, they were working on drawing three frames. Again no eggs, larva or capped brood. I am good a spotting a queen and rarely miss one. Still, I looked at them every week for 3 weeks before deciding it was too late to do anything with them other than Combine. So I had at least 3 attempts to find the queen or evidence of a queen over a 3 week period. I sure didn't expect the fighting I got at all three hives. I will wait until Friday and go make sure the queens survived the fights. It certainly did not look like the fighting killed all the new bees, but enough that it was obvious that it did not go well. I was surprised and upset. Think I'll try several of the suggestions on this thread, more sheets of paper, no tears at all and maybe some HBH on the paper. Any suggestions would be appreciated....


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Don't sweat it so much. You say there were a few hundred dead bees? That's nothing ...want me to start posting all the dead bees from when I treated for mites? It was like the scene from Gone with the Wind where the doctor can't manage all the patients and they're all laying in the town center. "Carnage" is the word I used to describe it. 

I've used 3 sheets of paper and I think that's too much. Try two?

Go check the queens and make sure they made it. Those are the "important" bees that you can not afford to lose.


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## Matt F (Oct 7, 2014)

I've never done a combine...but it seems to me that a top entrance would be critical. Without it the bees in the upper box will immediately seek an exit and chew through the paper, but with another entrance the paper would last much longer. Just a hunch.


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## Thershey (Mar 12, 2014)

One sheet has always worked well for me and HBH invites different problems, robbing. The only time I've experienced what you describe is when I combined bees with a virgin OR very newly mated queen. We're there by chance LWs in the queenless nucs? Maybe they exhibited aggressive behavior in support of their LWs.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Robbin, it sounds like you did everything correctly. I've done my share of newspaper combines just as you did and it has always gone pretty smoothly. A single sheet of newspaper with a few slits, and the next day they were combined without a problem. 

Did they have an upper entrance?


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Thershey said:


> One sheet has always worked well for me and HBH invites different problems, robbing. The only time I've experienced what you describe is when I combined bees with a virgin OR very newly mated queen. We're there by chance LWs in the queenless nucs? Maybe they exhibited aggressive behavior in support of their LWs.


I would appreciate it very much if when abbreviations are used that they would be defined once in the post.
Example: My hive had LW's (laying workers), QC's (queen cells), and a couple drones. 
Thanks, I figured out what LW means but since I was mostly thru this post...I finished it. Thanks


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## Thershey (Mar 12, 2014)

aunt betty said:


> I would appreciate it very much if when abbreviations are used that they would be defined once in the post.
> Example: My hive had LW's (laying workers), QC's (queen cells), and a couple drones.
> Thanks, I figured out what LW means but since I was mostly thru this post...I finished it. Thanks


NP,WD. 

That's...no problem, will do Lol


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

Yesterday I did a combine on 2 weak nucs by removing the divider between them. I did not kill the queens and I heavily smoked them. This morning I checked and it was a perfect round cluster; no dead bees and probably still 2 queens inside. I wonder if bees give up fighting in such cases when it's late in the season and cold.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Bees that have been queenless for awhile don't combine as easily, or take requeening as easily either as far as that goes. Most, or almost all, of the combines I've done work out with no fighting or problems. Sometimes though, there's one that fights and has some dead bees. Sometimes I end up with the queen being killed in the queen right part and the whole new colony then raises their own new queen. I think different strains of bees are harder to manipulate than others are. I don't think you did anything wrong, I think it just did not go smoothly this time for some reason that we, not being bees, know.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Robbin, it sounds like you did everything correctly. I've done my share of newspaper combines just as you did and it has always gone pretty smoothly. A single sheet of newspaper with a few slits, and the next day they were combined without a problem.
> 
> Did they have an upper entrance?


The nuc tops have an upper entrance, but I didn't have the top pushed forward so they could use it. I assumed it would be best to have them come out the main entrance.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Robbin said:


> The nuc tops have an upper entrance, but I didn't have the top pushed forward so they could use it. I assumed it would be best to have them come out the main entrance.


Nope not till the queens pheromones permeated through the paper into the other nuc. So when the nuc without the entrance needed to get out they went through the paper in a short time and was dealt with as robbers would be.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I usually give the bees ventilation in the upper box so they don't overheat, but it's screened off so they can't get out. I just worry that bees would exit the upper entrance and then return to the main entrance on the hive below and encounter guard bees which they have not yet become acclimated to. I prefer them to go through the paper and merge with the colony below. Don't know if that's right or wrong, but it's worked for me so far.


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## Matt F (Oct 7, 2014)

kaizen said:


> Nope not till the queens pheromones permeated through the paper into the other nuc. So when the nuc without the entrance needed to get out they went through the paper in a short time and was dealt with as robbers would be.


That's what I was trying to say...better words Kaizen, thanks.


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

If I may,

Combining bees from different hives has been a challenge. In July I combined frames from two different hives into a nuc and tried putting an once of "Vanilla extract" into a small spray bottle of 1:1 sugar water. I sprayed the nuc, and both frames of donor bees. In my own mind, I think it eased the tension inside the nuc. I can't say it worked well but from what I observed, it may be worthwhile. I plan to repeat this "vanilla merge" this next season and hope to keep better track of what's going on. Using newspaper is the tried and true method and I don't think I would use vanilla to combine two full hive boxes.

I would be interested to hear if anyone else has used vanilla to combine bees. My guess, or hope, is that the vanilla might overpower the pheromones and make everybody inside the hive smell the same. It is simple to do and if it helps make peace in the hive I am certainly going to use it.

Best wishes, LP


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I have used syrup with vanilla sprayed on bees and frames when merging hives with a newspaper. I generally go back the next day and see if they have put any holes in the lpaper, and stick my hive tool through once or twice and spray a bit more vanilla spray on the top bees. ( I think I sprayed both boxes when I initially put them together, just a few sprays, then newspaper, next box, a few sprays


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

Triple check to prove queenless. One sheet of newspaper with no nicks or tears. Queenless colony goes on top. Feed syrup. Never had any issues.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

I am with Michael B. Usually the bees are through the newspaper in less than 24 hours, and mixing well. Last spring I combined a queen less 5 frame nuc with another 5 frame nuc. I put the queen on top. When I went back to check a few days later there was only a small hole in the newspaper and the bees seemed to still be in their boxes. Two distinct groups of bees. I went through the frames to see what was going on and the queen was moving back and forth between the boxes through the small hole, and laying eggs in both boxes. The hole was about 2 inches long and as wide as the space between frames. The queen was marked and I found her in the bottom box.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

The first time I ever did a newspaper combine ( about 35 years ago) I saw hundreds of dead. I'm with you - "heartbreaking" is a fair description. 

I started sprinkling both units with just a little syrup, and the combines have been doing great, ever-since. Note that I live in a very dry climate - the bees seem to relish the moisture as much as the sugar. All the "syrup lapping" seems to enhance the exchange of queen pheromones, and they intermingle much better ( no fighting, few, if any, dead) - at least that's my take on it. 

In "wetter" climates ( just about everywhere else), it is good to be cautious of drowning the bees with excess syrup. I've found that a very light sprinkle (1/2-1 oz) does wonders. I now have a cheap pump up 2 quart garden sprayer with (HBHish) syrup that works wonderfully. Most of the time I don't even need to use smoke - the (HBHish) syrup works the same way - 'get's them busy/confused - feeding & cleaning up, rather than coming after me.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

One sheet of newspaper especially with slits is not enough. They chew through in mere minutes. Two sheets, dry, no nicks takes about 1.5 days or so to chew through depending on hive strength. ALWAYS leave an upper entrance for exit/entrance but more importantly ventillation.
Beekeeping is a learning experience.... even the "old timers" still learn a thing or two each season.


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## Orussell (Jul 12, 2020)

aunt betty - loved your analogy for dead bees! That's hysterical - puts my losses into great perspective.


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## Orussell (Jul 12, 2020)

I'm right in the middle of my first paper combine - July in New England, but I have a few questions (and I'm a newbie so feel free to correct anything below!). Hive I swarmed but I was able to capture it and start a new hive - Hive II. I waited a few weeks to see if Hive I would raise a new queen, but after nearly three weeks, still no eggs and all of the drone cells hatched - and this hive was getting a little huffy (a few stings to me). I decided to merge Hive II back onto Hive I since Hive II was doing really well with lots of capped brood, eggs, pollen, and nectar, etc, small though they were. I waited until sundown on a cool night with rain expected to reduce straggling foragers to do the merge. 

I removed the honey super from Hive I, so I was left with a lower brood chamber and upper deep with lots of frames full of capped honey. I placed TWO sheets of newspaper atop that, cut about 6 slits, and put Hive II on top. But when I did that, quite a few bees poured out and got trapped outside and between the boxes - ack! I coved up Hive II to enclose it completely. For the orphaned bees, I put an empty deep atop their old bottom board and placed a cover on that to give them shelter so that they could beg their way into one of my other two hives the next day. 

Next day - total heat wave (when it was supposed to continue raining). I actually put an umbrella over the hives, which get sun beating on them all day, and covered Hive I with a wet beach towel - ok, bag of ice, too - to try to cool it down (silly?). I saw some mild fighting on the landing boards of my hives - likely orphaned bees from Hive II trying to sneak into them. No signs of chewed paper yet. 

Today - high heat advisory! Worried that Hive II would die from overheating, I saw someone here post that they used a screened cover over the top of the hive vs outer cover? I don't have one, so I opened up Hive II's cover and placed an old window screen over the top, sprayed the frames and bees with sugar syrup and Honey Bee Healthy, and popped the inner cover over the old window screen to let it vent (just to make it dark inside). I did notice some chewed paper outside the hive but not much. 

QUESTIONS: 
1. When can I open it up to see if the combine is working? I don't see any fighting nor more than usual dead bees outside of Hive I entrance. Maybe it's a blood bath inside the hive and I just don't know it. But bees in Hive II are all lapping up the syrup and seem very calm. 
2. After a week or so, should I rearrange the frames to put the brood frames in the lower box (if the queen survives); open empty frames and a few honey frames in upper box (ratio?); and freeze the extra honey frames to supplement during a dearth and/or hive closing? 
3. I was going to do a mid-summer varroa treatment but perhaps I don't need to do that since I might have broken the mite lifecycle in Hive I and Hive II population was pretty small. I didn't test to see what the mite level is; should I at this point?

Lots of questions - gob bless you if you've read this far in my long post


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

My opinion is that you jumped the gun on the combine. "Nearly three weeks" from the day of the swarm is too early to expect to see eggs in the original hive. By doing the combine, one of your two queens was probably killed. Clean up time. Break down the hive and look really hard to see if you can find both queens. If not, move all the frames with honey in them to the outermost positions in two of the brood boxes. Put the frames of brood in the center three or four positions of both boxes and put empty drawn comb to finish filling the boxes. Remove the third box and newspaper then replace the super.

If you do find both queens, do the same thing, but move a single deep back to the other bottom board and split the bees up as best you can. Make sure that each hive has a queen. More than likely the old queen will be in the upper box on her brood if she is still alive.

You did not say if you found an opened queen cell, but I would imagine there are a few in the bottom box. You will get more details from other responses.

Also, plan on treating as usual. A brood break alone is not enough to control varroa and since you recombined, you did not really get one.


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## Orussell (Jul 12, 2020)

Thank you, JW Palmer. Ugh - I wish I'd just left them all alone for another few weeks. I was worried that my queenless hive was going on too long without a queen, but I guess I should have waited.

In your opinion, do you think I still have the option to leave this newly combined hive alone for another few days and check to see if all is well? If I only find one queen and the bees are not fighting, can I just rearrange the frames to reduce it down? Or should I just break it all down now and cut my losses?

I've never done a mid-summer mite treatment, but do you think that I should? I use Apiguard (and remove honey super while doing that) in early spring and before closing up in the fall.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Yes, you can let it go and rearrange when convenient.

I have never used Apiguard so I can't provide you with an opinion there. Some mite treatments are temperature sensitive and not appropriate for use in the summer. Apiguard, which is thymol based, appears to be safe for use.


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## Orussell (Jul 12, 2020)

Thanks so much for your prompt replies and advice, JW. I really appreciate it!


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

I have shaken the whole queenless hive out in front of queenright colony with just the queen and one frame, then shake the other colony, homeless bees get along, I've done the newspaper and a lot die up top with no way out, and they didn't ever seem to chew the paper, but it did end up working. I have also heavily smoked them and joined them together.


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## Orussell (Jul 12, 2020)

Thank you - it's so great to learn about different methods. I did a few things wrong, but hopefully, the bees are smarter than I and will adapt to my manipulations once again. Your smoking idea makes sense - thank you for sharing!


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## ncbeez (Aug 25, 2015)

I have done quite a few newspaper combines and like the results. My reasons for joining would be a poor queen performance. I would not do it with a laying worker hive. I just smoke the bottom hive a little to get the bees off the top bars then poke a few slits in one sheet of newspaper with a hive tool then put the weaker queenless hive on top. I let whatever foragers are left behind beg their way into the other hives. I would not use honey be healthy unless I was feeding all the hives with it because they love it so much it starts a robbing frenzy too often.


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## LEAD PIPE (May 22, 2005)

I just use a screen with an upper entrance and just remove it the next time I check the hives, usually a week later.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

we have so much robbing during dearths here, I have never been brave enough to put a top entrance on. Instead I do what NCBeez does - a few slits in the newspaper, not too many, and a feed jar on top, so the top bees have liquid. I do have some shade on my hives in late afternoon, which helps


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## Murdock (Jun 16, 2013)

I've done the paper combine several times with good results. I use one sheet of paper w/o (with out) slits and I always smoke the queenless hive really good to kill the brood/ laying worker smell and I give them an entrance/exit. Sugar water spray slows them down too plus feeds them.


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