# Splits failing plz help



## Jadeguppy

I had two mated queens arrive Thursday. Late the afternoon I pulled a few frames from my main hive and shook bees into two nucs. Friday both nucs got robbed. Early afternoon today (Sat) I replaced a robbed frame with full frame and shook several frames of bees into it. I did this for both. I really want to go into winter with more than one hive. Any suggestions to help me?


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## Tweeter

Use one entrance and very small for them to defend.


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## Jadeguppy

Nuc has a 5/8 inch hole as an entrance.


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## clyderoad

Make the entrance even smaller, one bee wide. 
Even that might not work because the robber bees know where they are and the nuc colonies are not organized enough to defend themselves.

Is it possible to move them to another location to build up for 6 or 8 weeks?


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## Jadeguppy

Ok. I hung an empty frame on each landing board. It looks to have decreased the holes to a single bee.

I can move the nucs to my side yard, but that is the best I can do. I'm thinking about putting out two comb frames that still have honey residue from being spun out. Do you think that will distract them from the nucs?

The bees are from the same hive, so I don't think the nucs are fighting them off as Intruders. I really need this to work.


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## JWPalmer

JG, you must get robber screens on these nucs or the queens will be killed. Clyderoad had the best solution, move them somewhere at least 3 miles away. Since that is not an option for you, get some 3/4" x 1-1/2 strips and make a square the same size as your box is wide. Cut up a 2x4 to get the wood if you need to. Cut a 3/8" x 5/8" groove in the top board for an entrance. Cover it on the outside with #8 hardware cloth or even window screen will work. Nail or screw the frame to the nuc so the new entrance is as far from the original entrance as possible.

Kinda makeshift I know, but you need to get this done by tomorrow morning or kiss the queens goodbye.

Open feeding with the extracted frames is very short term. The bees will be back to robbing out your nucs within a few hours.

You are right about the bees not recognizing the robbers as intruders. They smell like the hive they just came from. That goes away in a week or so but by then it will be too late.


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## Jadeguppy

I moved them to my side yard, about 100' away and out of sight. Right now the entrances are fully blocked. I'm thinking of keeping it shut until late morning in hopes of the bees that are in the nucs getting use to the new nuc. I'm concerned the queen will be killed.

Do you think the wood blocking the entrance to one bee will be like a screen?


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## gww

Jade
I have never tried it but you might put some vicks vapor rub around any entrance you have.
Cheers 
gww


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## Jadeguppy

Gww what does Vicks do?


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## gww

The bees don't like the smell but the ones that live there put up with it. The ones that don't live there don't have to put up with it. I think it hides the entrance. I did not think of it but have seen it recomended to others and is also one of the things to do on michael bushes web site under things to do for robbing. The best this still seems to be to move them.
If you try it and it helps which I think it could, give us feed back. If it doesn't work, give feed back. I had a little robbing and just reduced the entrance. If I would have had vicks with out making a special trip to town, I would have tried it. I have a bad attitude myself and figure that if the hive is reduced to one or two bee space and can not defend, I will just lose it. I have some robbing pressure now cause I am feeding the bees are feeling the pressure from each other and so I may be the next post with a dead hive but so far so good.
I do think it might help though, expecially since you have moved the hive from where it was if it could be done before the bees find it again which will be almost immediatly.
Good luck
gww


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## Arbol

you seriously should have waited till spring to split. it's way to late in the year, light hours to short, signals shut down to the bees not brood rearing. you may have hurt your one hive beyond repair now, may even die out over the winter. the robbing is not your bees it's others near by and may gt 100x worse.
vicks won't stop robbing, and your resources are dwindling now.


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## JWPalmer

Arbol said:


> you seriously should have waited till spring to split. it's way to late in the year, light hours to short, signals shut down to the bees not brood rearing. you may have hurt your one hive beyond repair now, may even die out over the winter. the robbing is not your bees it's others near by and may gt 100x worse.
> vicks won't stop robbing, and your resources are dwindling now.


Keep in mind that all beekeeping is local. Jadeguppy is in Florida. Even here in Virginia the bees are still laying strong. Splits I made three and four weeks ago are wall to wall brood. Temps are still 70s and 80s daytime highs near 90. Jade needs to get the robbing under control if he wants these splits to have a chance.

It is my understanding that Vicks masks the smell of the honey so the robbers are not drawn to the hive. Never used it myself but if MB recommends it, my guess is that it works.


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## odfrank

When you make a split and leave it in the same yard all the foragers return to the original hive. Move splits two miles away.


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## Jadeguppy

Thank you jwp. I saw the first goldenrod in bloom yesterday and there are wildflowers all over the place.
When I added bees yesterday I tried to avoid the foragers. I shook them onto a lid and waited a short bit before shaking them into the hive.
Unfortunately the wood I placed over the entrances fell off during the night and they started robbing again before I got the Vicks on. When I put the Vicks on they turned into a cloud of confusion. I'm going to try sweet talking family into letting me move the nucs over there. 
Do you think my queens will survive?


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## Slow Drone

Arbol said:


> you seriously should have waited till spring to split. it's way to late in the year, light hours to short, signals shut down to the bees not brood rearing. you may have hurt your one hive beyond repair now, may even die out over the winter. the robbing is not your bees it's others near by and may gt 100x worse.
> vicks won't stop robbing, and your resources are dwindling now.


Vicks will stop robbing almost immediately buying time to install a robber screen. Arbol has obviously no experience using Vicks. Get a robber screen on at dusk or after dark.


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## gww

jade
For future referance on getting just nurse bees, go to you tube and look up nurse bee split. I am not saying that is how you should do it, I will let smarter then me tell you that.

Also if you need to add to the splits, you can shake a frame from a differrent hive on the roof. The nurse bees should climb down and beg themselves in. Use a brood frame cause honey frames will be old bees and do not shake the queen.

Nurse bees do not make good gaurd bees though.
Good luck
gww


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## Jadeguppy

Thank you get. I may need to do that.


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## Jadeguppy

I have reduced the entrance to single bee size and added another glob of Vicks above the hole. Do you think they will be safe?. I built a medium to put on it for a pint size mason jar feeder, but I'm not sure if I should wait to install it. If I move the nucs to my parents house, I can't keep a close eye on it and can't add nurse bees if needed.


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## gww

jade
I had always heard that it helps to give them only as much as they can eat over night and put it on near end of day each day. If the bees are not fighting and just letting in the robbers cause they think they belong, who knows if they will make it. I had some pressure this year and am surprized that two of my hives are still alive. I did see the queen still alive in one. Of course the year is not done yet. When I give any advice, keep in mind that I am about as new as you are.
Good luck
gww


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## Jadeguppy

Since I didn't have mesh and used a wood piece to decrease the entrance, should the nucs have additional ventilation?


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## JWPalmer

Make sure you still have at least two full frames of bees and brood and find the queen. If you are going to be moving them, shake in some foragers as well. Get the nucs setup in the evening and closed off with screen. Transport them in the predawn and release around 7am. Stick around to watch them orient to the new location, it's cool to watch. I imagine the bees will be pretty traumatized by the end of all this so it may take the queen a while to start laying. Bees may also blame her for the ruckus and that won't be good. I would leave a robber screen on or your entrance reducer and feed at this point but don't worry if they run out. If you have foragers and some stores, they should be ok. My nucs were taking a pint every two days but were starting to get nectar bound so I stopped. There is plenty coming in so I am not worried.


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## Jadeguppy

Jwp. If I move them to the other house, I can't keep an eye on them. Do you think it is worth it? If so, I need to move them tonight. I start work at 7am.

Also, I noticed a few trying to fly off with larve. Is that normal and due to being moved around?

The Queen's are still in their boxes, but will be out very soon.


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## JWPalmer

You say you can't keep an eye on them. Once a week visitation? The larva thing depends, they could be larvae that were killed by being uncapped during the robbing and the bees are doing some housekeeping. Or it could mean they are getting ready to abscond, or ? 
Sounds like you really are running out of good options. Shake an extra frame of bees in the box and staple some window screen over the hole. Take em to the parent's house (let Mom and Dad know) uncork them and hope for the best. You will need to get by and make sure the queens have been released after a few days. You can evaluate other options once things have stabilized. If they don't make it, consider what went wrong and plan ahead for the next time.

Makeshift robber screen, nothing more than some bent hardware cloth.


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## Jadeguppy

We decided to hedge out bet. One will stay here and the other at my parents house. I'll try to check on them tomorrow after work. For now, I decided to put a feeder on via the inner cover. They live near national seashore so the bees should find food. I wish I had been able to keep them from robbing. There is plenty to forage. I need to find a successful way to do my own splits in my yard.


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## JWPalmer

Jadeguppy said:


> I need to find a successful way to do my own splits in my yard.


That has been my dilemma as well, before I was given permission to have my bees at work 30 miles away. Out of five attempts at splits in the home yard, only two were successful. One of those had a robber screen from day one. The other was a strong split while the flow was still on and didn't get robbed. The other three were total failures, although one managed to hang on for about a month. The experienced beeks are right, the best splits must be moved. Diminished robbing attempts and a stronger nuc because all the guard bees and foragers are still in it. I still use the screens with my nucs that are at work because that location has been good to me with swarm trapping as well. So there are other bees in the vicinity. 
This a picture of one of the three screens I made this evening. Once again copied from the Brushy Mountain screens I purchased earlier.















As you can see, they are very simple and reasonably effective.


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## Jadeguppy

How do they help?


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## JWPalmer

Robbers are attracted to the smell of the honey/feed. The smell emanates from the opening so that is where they go to try to get in. The screen allows the smell to come out, but blocks the direct access. The bees that live in the nuc figure out pretty quickly how to get in and out, but the robbers don't. Or at least not the majority of them. Notice the entrance on the top bar of the screen. Very easy to guard if one of the robbers does figure it out.


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## RayMarler

Jadeguppy said:


> ... I'm thinking about putting out two comb frames that still have honey residue from being spun out. Do you think that will distract them from the nucs? ...


I never ever put anything in the yard that bees want to rob when I have just made splits or any weaker hives in the yard. That causes robbing.

I never put a feeder of any kind on the newly made splits, that causes robbing. I always make splits up with a frame of honey and a frame of some pollen so they do not have to be fed. Sugar water and _especially with anything else mixed in like EO's or vinegar _ will cause robbing, Make the splits up with stores frames from the parent hive, and feed the parent hive if needed, don't feed the splits.


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## gww

Jade
I have made all my splits (not many) and hived all my swarms in the same yard and some right beside each other. Ray has helped me lots of times with sage advice and I trust him. I have fed splits in my yard but timeing is important. It is a lot easier to get away with feeding something that has few foragers when their is a real strong flow on keeping the other bees busy. I would hate to do a split now cause even my strongest hives are being tested for weakness due to no natural forage being around right now. Michael bush has some good ideals on his web site for making differrent kinds of splits.

I also try and never have anything but sugar mixed with water (nothing that smells added).

I think but I am new that big splits work better then small ones in the same yard. I could move to other places with my splits but am too lazy to do so and so have just been winging it. I do know from experiance though that you do not have to have more then one hive in a yard and can still do things that will kill you with bees you did not even know were around untill you tried to open feed close to your hive and invited all the neibors bee to come rob you. Even if you move the hive, you have to be careful of what you do.

I think the biggest help for a new guy is to do splits when there is a good flow on. I know lots of guys make late splits and do just fine but for guys like us that are just starting, making the split when in a good flow is safest till we get a feel for it.

Remember that I am as new as you when I am spouting all this stuff to you.
Cheers
gww


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## Jadeguppy

Gww and Ray I appreciate the suggestions. I live on the northern Gulf Coast, a short bike ride to water. Wildflowers have been in flow and goldenrod is just starting. Our fall flow is on. I think Ray may be onto something. One of the frames I put it was recently extracted comb. I didn't even think about it being a trigger.


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## MikeJ

I have heard some recommend that you shouldn't feed a split for at least a day to let the foragers return to the original hive.
Forage bees (which get tossed into the new split with the other bees) return to their original hive, and so the new weak split's location is known (along with stores/syrup sources).

Mr. Bush suggests leaving the split in the location of the original hive so the foragers are coming to the new split rather than from the split to the original hive.

Even if you make a successful split with no initial robbing - and then set out food, you are liable to cause the split to get robbed. Putting wet frames out is basically open feeding which can trigger robbing. Robbing bees go everywhere looking for easy food - and so can easily find a new weak split.

Here is a case in which a suggestion to move the nuc was given early but action was not prompt enough.
www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?340818-Very-Confused


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## beepro

Here is a method that I've used in the last 3 years for very late splits with excellent result.
Find a very strong hive for this process. Moved all except 1 or 2 frames of attaching bees to the new hive location without the queen. The queen is still in the original location after the frames got moved. Add the drawn comb to fill in the empty slots in the original hive. In the mean time, all the foragers from the split hive and the original hive are returning to the old location. They are happy to see the queen is still there. The split hive will not be happy and are very edgy because their queen is missing. Some flying bees will try to find their queen and will try to orient to the new split hive location but they all return to the original hive no matter what. Now the split hive is without much foragers. That is why it is so important to make up stronger split hive by taking almost all the frames of bees from a very strong hive over. Depleting the foragers will not even put a dent to the hive population since lots of bees are still in the new split hive. This is the key to your split success!

Now, after everything has settled down in a day or 2, go in the original hive to find the old queen. Catch her and take her over to the split hive to release her inside. Simply put her next on a frame gap and she will go inside. This process serve 2 purposes, one is to preserve the split hive's queen right status. Secondly is to prepare the original hive in a queen less state for the new mated queen to go in. My 2 new queens are schedule to arrive either this Tues or Weds. Already prepared 2 nuc hives using this method for them today and yesterday. Have also made a double tied together frames, one empty and one of drawn comb for the queen introduction cage. She can stay in there for as long as she like to lay and be friends with the older foragers.

Gww, pointed out about Lauri's fly back method on the other post. But Lauri did not go back to fully details her finding. Just the same time that Lauri discovered this method and gave it a name, I also found it but did not have a name for it. However, the method and it principles are still the same, the fly back bees, only I used it differently with different result. 
Surprisingly, the split hive is just next to the original hive I made! 

p.S. Give it a little twist and screened off one of the split nuc hive at the original location tonight. Let's see how the foragers react when they cannot get inside coming from the split queen right hive. I'm sure some foragers are still left behind.


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## Jadeguppy

Thank you both for the detailed information. I really need this to work, but if it doesn't, I at least think I know what to do different next time.


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## beepro

Of course it works. Been doing this for 4 seasons now. Both the Spring time split and very late summer
split are using the same method. I only saw 7 foragers trying to get in to the old hive location. They
cannot get in because the window screen blocked them out just the way I planned it. No choice but to go back to the queen right neighbor
hive. After the new queen is laying I will take the wire screen off. By then the neighbor hive bees will smell different so they will not be accepted by the new queen hive anymore even if they try to get in. In the mean time they will have honey water, homemade patty subs and sugar bricks to munch on all securely locked in for a few days. Yes, I do provide extra ventilation in the top box on purpose with a small crack on the top migratory cover.

New queens is schedule to arrive here tomorrow afternoon at 3pm. To prevent the foragers from going in or coming out from the locked down hive, I have to do my queen installation in the night time. So that will be 5 hours later after the sunset here.



New method of queen intro double frames laying cage:


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## Jadeguppy

Beepro, please explain the two frame queen box and how you built it in more detail.


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## JWPalmer

Beepro, It appears your side bars do not taper as do the BM frames I use, or it just not clear in the picture? Is the other comb side covered in screen also? I would assume it is to keep the other bees from releasing her by chewing through the comb. Do you think your two frame set up would also work as a laying queen bank? Strength in numbers. Would be cool to have the queens laying while waiting to put them in a nuc.


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## beepro

Yes, you can use it both as a queen laying bank cage or serve as a queen introduction cage. Its purpose is for the queen to
lay first while taking her time to get used to her bees in the intro hive. It will work as a queen laying bank that the new
bees will be more likely to accept a laying queen. You can also modify it to cut the empty frame narrower. For this demo
cage, I just use another standard empty frame attached with the drawn comb frame that I took from the hive with some nectar and pollen in the cells. Yes, it will work for both!

Imagine how a nuc hive can be stabilized first without seeing the robbing situation while you feed them inside with a safe caged laying queen. After that she can be released manually when there is sufficient food. There is no need to be in a hurry to release her while she's laying away. We all know that a banked queen coming from the seller, if they do queen banking, will take 4-5 days for her to start laying. Inside this safety cage she can take her time without worrying about the older bees or any robbing situation. If there is robbing then she is safe along with her attendants and young nurse bees inside this cage. 

As an intro cage I can leave her in with the attendants and 30 fuzzy newly emerged bees from the nuc hive. Don't give them the older bees with the queen that they might balled her to death. The big fat plump up young nurse bees are the ones I'm looking for to add inside the cage along with the queen. To be safe for an expensive queen these days I will just use the newly emerged fuzzy bees with her. This way all the attendants that came along with her will have a chance to live too. They will be one big happy family in no time after the queen is laying.

As a short term laying bank queen cage, she can lay inside while waiting for her time to go inside a nuc or production hive. Again use the same young bees from the hive that she's going into. For a long term laying bank queen cage, I would modify with an empty narrow frame next to the comb frame. The reason is you want 5 sets to fit inside a 10 frame hive box. Make 2 of the 10 frame hive box and you will have 10 laying queens banked and laying. 

If you use a piece of QE cut to fit in the middle between the 2 drawn comb frames then you will have a 2 queens laying bank frame on either side. Though the frame has to be modify a bit. You can even ship the entire 2 queens along with the drawn comb frames on both sides to the buyer too. At the eggs stage they are really tough and glue to the bottom of the cells.

If you have a strong hive in a long langs hive set up then you can bank more than 10 queens using this method. You can also double up on the long langs hive too. The limitation is how many worker bees you have inside. A good example for this would be to use a hive ready to swarm for a bank queen set up like this with the old queen removed first. Good for making a lot of the II Spring queens. Anyway, the purpose is to get the queen laying while she wait for the new bees to get used to her.


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## JWPalmer

Something to try this spring. Thanks for the detailed post.


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## beepro

"..., or it just not clear in the picture? Is the other comb side covered in screen also?"

Yes, both side has a screen on it. The back side of the empty frame, I simple nailed some small nails to
attach the wire window screen along the perimeter of the frame. On the bottom bar of the empty frame, I use a thicker fishing line to secure it to the screen along the bottom. The front removable screen on the drawn comb side is where I use rubber bands and 2 pieces of long strings to attached the 2 frames together. So the back screen on the empty frame is not removable but the screen on the drawn comb can be remove. In between the middle of the empty frame and the drawn comb is where the bees and queen will go in.

If you pay attention to the side bars, the empty frame does not use the standard side bars on either side. For the side bars of the empty frame, I use the narrow rectangular side bars. The dimension is the same as the regular langs side bar only it doesn't narrow in on the end toward the bottom. The bottom bar which attached to the side bars with nails, is a piece of 1/4" thin wood strip the same dimension as the side bars. This way both the side bars and the bottom bar will fit together with small nails. The top bar is just a standard langs top bar. Attaching the top bar to the side bars is also using small nails. 

But for the queen's safety I cut out a small strip of the white chewy foam to fit in the small gap so that the bees cannot get inside. The side gap is already narrow enough on both sides that no bees can get in or out. This narrow gap is caused by the empty frame using the rectangular side bars fit together with the drawn comb frame. If I want more safety then I will use the aluminum tape to tape over the chewy foam like I did on the top bars of the frame. The rubber bands and 2 pieces of strings are there to further secure the foam pieces on the frames together. Overall, it is a very secure tight fit.

* Note: The drawn comb frame is a standard langs frame with the narrower side bars cut in. Combine the 2 together and you will have a smaller gap on the side. Been thinking about this design for a while before assembly.  This will save on the material cost if you want to make many of them. 

** Note: If you don't have the chewy white foam then any chewy foam will work as long as they are safe for the bees. Use substitute local materials to seal these gaps along the frames. Materials such as wax soaked paper towels twisted together or smaller pieces of wire screens, harden propolis, etc. Whatever that is bee proof. If you don't care much about material cost then use a piece of aluminum tape to tape all the way around the 2 frames. A small razor blade can be use to cut along the middle to release the drawn comb frame later on. 

Taping the top bars together. After the frames are tied together with rubber bands and strings, the top bars still has a big gap in the middle of the 2 frames. To seal this gap, again I use a wider piece of the chewy white foam. Then use aluminum tapes to tape over the chewy foam. Cut the foam wider so that the bees cannot push it inside the frame. The aluminum tapes are there to further secured the foam making it very snug and secure. I use 6 pieces of the thicker rubber bands and 2 pieces of strings to tie the 2 frames together. The 2 pieces of the thicker rubber bands are on the outer side of the frames for better strength. The rest are in the middle and in between of the frames space out enough to secure the screen on. The 2 pieces of strings are on the side-way along with one piece of rubber band. All these security measure is to make sure that the screen on the drawn comb is on securely and no gaps for the outside bees to go inside these frames.

For the bottom bar gap, I also use aluminum tapes and a piece of chewy white foam all the way across. After that put the rubber bands on top of them. Make a final inspection all around and tug on the foams and screens to make sure they are tight enough. Any small opening you can tape it over or use a piece of chewy foam to seal the small hole. Before, I only use a single drawn comb cage for queen intro. Now a double frames intro frame is better because I don't have to worry about squishing the queen against the screen anymore. The queen and attendants will go on the side where the empty and drawn comb meet. The back side of the drawn comb is only 30% usable empty cells because the screen is very close on it. I like to put the 2 frames next to the hive box with the back of the drawn comb facing the hive wall. Hope my description is clear enough. If not perhaps some pics might help. 



Back, bottom, side and top:


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## Jadeguppy

Happy news! The queen has been accepted and is loose in the nuc at my house. There are several frames of bees still in there. I don't see any flying, but the feeder is still there. Single bee size opening with Vicks glob above it. I'm looking forward to checking the nuc I moved. Thank you everyone! You saved them and have taught me a lot that I can use in the spring.


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## JWPalmer

JG, that is great news. You probably wont see any bees flying for several days except for those real short cleansing flights. Little hops where they come out, fly for a few inches, then land and crawl back inside. Perfectly normal. Flight activity will get going in another week or so as the need for pollen increases.


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## Jadeguppy

Good to hear. I was wondering why I found one on the ground a couple feet from the hive that looked healthy. Do you think it is safe to go back to the 5/8 hole entrance?


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## clyderoad

Jadeguppy said:


> Do you think it is safe to go back to the 5/8 hole entrance?


No.


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## JWPalmer

Clyderoad said it best, but I am a little more verbose. At a bare minimum you need to wait until you have significant forager activity. In all reality, I would guess about 5-6 weeks from now. You will be able to tell when because there will be a bottleneck of bees trying to get in and out of the opening. Not the same as a cloud of bees waiting to land. You may not need to open it until early spring if the hive doesn't take off right away.


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## Jadeguppy

10-4. I'll wait.


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## beepro

I would not wait that long to check for the queen's well being and that there are 
eggs inside this nuc hive. The same goes to the out yard nuc hive. With the coming of winter it 
is better that you check for the mites and a live queen in there. Without a live queen inside then this hive
cannot make it through this winter. If this nuc hive is heavy with the mite load then the early Spring time build
up will crashed this hive also. The new eggs will bring another new round of the big fat winter bees. And we all know that
the mites will be inside these cap broods making the big fat winter bees impossible to sustain. Without those new bees
your nuc will dwindle away over the next few months. Right now they still have a chance. So check for the mites, queen and the eggs too!

I did a direct released on one queen and put the 2nd queen inside the 2 frames laying cage. The one that I did a direct released last evening was gone this morning. I'd assume that the older bees got her alright. The one still inside the 2 frames cage is alive along with 80 fat nurse bees. Over the next few days the older foragers will get used to her and I will add more young nurse bees in with her until she is laying inside the cage. Hopefully she will make it too.


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## JWPalmer

Sorry to hear that one of the queens you were waiting for got balled. We weren't discussing opening the hive, which of course should be done for inspections, rather the entrance which is currently reduced to prevent robbing that has been a problem recently.


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## Jadeguppy

Sorry you lost your queen beepro. We may be getting hit by the hurricane this weekend. If not, we will probably get tropical force winds. I've about had enough with storms this year. Never thought I'd hope for a cold front. Plans are to check the other nuc tomorrow. I may need to bring it home. The canal funnels wind right towards them.


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## Jadeguppy

Bummer news. The hive at my parents is full of wax moth larve and no bees. I don't see adult moths,so I'm going to expose everything to the Florida sun and then wash away crispy critters. Is it safe to fog the remaining nuc with ox.acid?


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## beepro

Nope, I did not lost this queen yet. She's all beat up with a tattered right wing but is 
surviving. I found her in a small ball of bees with one mean bee clamping to her left leg. So I
put her inside the original cage that she came from with 4 fat nurse bees. And put her inside another nuc hive with
another original queen that I caged her also. So 2 queens got caged now inside one nuc hive. 

As soon as the queen inside the 2 frames laying cage got accepted, I will release the 2nd bought queen in there. This
time she will spend a long time in this cage. Yes, definitely take the other nuc home since the hive situation is stabilize
now somewhat. Facing the coming of a hurricane they will not go out robbing anytime soon. Hopefully they can withstand
this wind if you strap everything down. Let us know how it goes.


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## Jadeguppy

My main hive is bringing in a good bit of whitish pollen. Any ideas as to what plant it comes from?


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## JWPalmer

Could it be melaleuca? I think it blooms this time of year and is white.


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## Jadeguppy

I looked it up and it looks like I am too far north for them. I found a chart that suggested clematis have white pollen. A few people grow them in the neighborhood. Does that sound like a reasonable possibility?

On another note, any ideas on what happened to my failed nuc? My Mom mentioned seeing a lot of bees outside the hive. I'm thinking the swarmed, but don't know what would cause it.


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## Jadeguppy

I think it was shb larve and not wax moth that I found in the crashed hive.


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## Jadeguppy

This storm has me up. The winds sound worse than expected, but weather channel says It isn't too bad. I'm so worried I'd lose my hives. I hope everyone fares well. I know some of you are in the direct path.


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## beepro

Don't worry there. We always made it through no matter what. That is the survival
spirit that we all carry. The same goes for the bees also. Even during the last flood here they
will cuddle together while protecting their queen inside. This is all you can do for your bees and
hope for the best now.


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## JWPalmer

Jadeguppy said:


> I think it was shb larve and not wax moth that I found in the crashed hive.


Do you have a photo? I'm thinking that was awful fast to get infested and have the bees abscond.


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## Jadeguppy

I don't have a picture. Some looked too long to be fly larve and it looked just like the pictures online. ?. My main hive had a high number of shb, but we're keeping them corraled. The number of adults appears to be dropping since putting de under the hive. I thought I had moved clean frames over. We checked them over. The other hive doesn't appear to be having the same issue. Their hive leaked in the storm and few were on top of the frames when I peeked in. However, it looked like they were clustered lower on the frames.


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## Jadeguppy

Just found the nuc at the house nearly empty. Queen left and the hive is slimed. Why do I keep losing nucs?


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## DavidZ

honestly like stated before by someone you should have waited till spring.
Bees are driven by the daylength hours, just because you have it warm in FL
bees react to the length of the daysnot the temps, temps do help drive them.
But once winter hours are less than 15hrs oer day bees shut down.
it's way to late in the year to make nucs and splits.
you may have just wasted your efforts big tim, and learned a hard lesson.
good luck, follow the bees.


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## clyderoad

DavidZ said:


> honestly like stated before by someone you should have waited till spring.
> Bees are driven by the daylength hours, just because you have it warm in FL
> bees react to the length of the daysnot the temps, temps do help drive them.
> But once winter hours are less than 15hrs oer day bees shut down.
> it's way to late in the year to make nucs and splits.
> you may have just wasted your efforts big tim, and learned a hard lesson.
> good luck, follow the bees.


jadeguppy is likely in the middle of a big Brazilian pepper bloom now, a typical October flow there


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## Jadeguppy

My mature hive is very busy foraging. Goldenrod recently started blooming along with other fall plants. Lots of whitish pollen this week. We are in full flow.


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## Jadeguppy

Can I wash, sun bake and give the bees the now icky black comb or does it need to be scraped off?


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## JWPalmer

JG, I'm sorry things didn't work out. Without knowing for sure, my first guess would be that there simply weren't enough bees in the splits to begin with and they got over run by the SHBs. 

The daylight hours claim intrigues me. Let's see, it is 72 days until winter solstice, the shortest amount of daylight. If you add back 72 days to that you get a date of March 2. Therefore, we have about the same amount of daylight vs dark now as we will at the begining of March. No one is going to suggest the bees aren't in full swing at that time so there is more to it than just daylight hours. Maybe the bees recognize the shortening days, I don't know. But I can tell you that the splits I made around Sept 9 are doing very well as of last week. And I am about 500 miles north of you. I do belive it is now too late to try anything to save the home nuc but you really need to work on getting your shb situation under control or you might lose the hive as well.

Take some time this winter to build some swarm traps. You might get lucky and replinish your loses with local feral bees.


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## Jadeguppy

That would be very fortunate


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## JWPalmer

Just read the rest of the posts. Do not scrape the comb! Dunk it in a bleach and water solution, rinse well, then let the bees fix it. Never scrape drawn comb unless you have to. I had a frame in a failed nuc get whacked by wax moths. Cleaned it and gave it back to the bees. They moved most of the wax to other frames, but fixed the part that was still sound. Next year I'm sure they will draw the rest back out.


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## Jadeguppy

Jwp, that is good news. There is a lot of comb involved. What bleach:water ratio?


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## JWPalmer

It is not a precise thing. I would use 1/2 cup household bleach in a five gallon bucket filled with water and a little dish soap. Soak for a few minutes, flip and soak some more, then rinse wih a gentle sprayer nozzle to get inside the cells and air dry. Don't leave out too long or the wax moths will find them.


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## Jadeguppy

Is there a safe way to store the comb frames without freezing them?


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## beepro

First of all this has nothing to do with the weather or the change in the
daylight hours at this time. It is having more to do with your experience and strategy used to
make a successful nuc split. You have to steer the situation a bit in your favor next time by
ensuring that the robber screen is installed at the right time and without feeding the
syrup to invite any robbing to start. Then you have to make a stronger split so that the SHBs don't have
a chance to take a foot hold. The mite is the next issue you have to deal with in order for the nuc
to build up the big fat winter bees over this winter. These 3 external factors, once they are under your control will help
to increase the chance of a successful split. 

Here is my example, I don't have the SHB here to worry about, so the mites and feeding are my main focus on a split. Had I 
have the SHBs here I would install a beetle trap inside my nuc hives after the split. For feeding on a new split nuc, I don't give them any syrup initially. 
They have to feed on the sugar bricks and patty subs along with 4 frames of open nectar/pollen. In your case a little bit of the subs added will help too. For the mites issue, I already moved majority of them into another nuc hive back in late June. There will be no mites to infect my new nucs for a while after the new installed queen is laying. When the nucs are stable enough after a few weeks, I will give them each a pint jar of honey water. Since all the production hives got broken down into nucs now, there won't be any big colony to rob the small nuc hives out. When the 3 deep hive got broken down into smaller nucs this late summer, I make sure to make a strong split and even out the nuc hive population somewhat. So the issue of robbing, feeding and mites are all under my control! Next is to deal with the newly installed queen.

At build up time, going on now, they will be too busy minding their own business to care about what the other nucs are doing. There won't be any big hive haunting the smaller nuc hives out. To increase the chance of a successful split, keeping the new queen alive is very important. In this case, using the 2 frames laying cage to hold the queen in with the young nurse bees will be very helpful. I've since made an improvement to use a single drawn comb frame queen laying queen cage to same space. It just so happens that yesterday I released the queen by taking out the other empty half of the frame. Then the entire drawn comb frame along with the 80 young nurse bees got moved to the next frame of bees over. Today, on a hive check I saw half of the drawn comb got new eggs in the cells. A very good sign that she's laying well in solid pattern too. Because she already know her hive environment she will not wait any longer trying to build up the winter hive population. With the daylight hours getting shorter by the days, she will not lose anymore precious time. By next week I should see all eggs filling up the cells in the 4 frames nuc hive. Then there will be a frame switch out.

So actually, the shorter daylight hours along with the decrease in day and night temperature will help to signal the hive to hurry up and build up. Taking this opportunity to know more about the bees, I will do another one of my little bee experiment. I will removed the cap brood frames into my homemade mini fridge incubator. This will free up the nurse bees to stay longer inside to help take care of the open broods. If left alone with a decreasing hive population, only 2-3 frames of bees, once the broods are cap these young nurse bees will turn into foragers very fast as it is way past due for them. I will use drawn comb frames to help the new queens to lay more eggs to build up the hive population. As the hive population increased and broods too, so is the need for more feeding. I will make up more high protein 60g, homemade patty subs and honey water for them along with the sugar bricks. There will be a small 7 watt electric heat pad inside the empty frame hook up to the solar station to keep the broods warm all winter long too. Once all the bees emerged from the incubator they will be mite checked first one by one before releasing them back into these nuc hives. The population will be even out somewhat by that time.

Ohh, David, there are lots of big fat winter bees in there right now. I didn't take a pic because I was too happy to finally see the new queen got accepted and laying away. Yep, feeding honey water at the right time really helps on occasion. You will never get the chance to see how an about to dwindle away late summer nuc hive turn around with a newly mated late summer queen on a shorten daylight hours and lower night time temperature. When others are focusing on making combines for a stronger hive going into winter, I focus on using Mel's method to give them a newly mated queen to build up. Time is still on my side, somewhat. But the bees know they don't have much since David said their daylight hours are getting shorter by the day now. Once you see how a nuc hive build up versus the big strong hives that you have, you will never think of what you're thinking right now. Remember, it is all about methods and strategy you use in your local bee environment. Do you still think that it is rather too late to make a few new nuc hives these days? 

Jadeguppy did not completely fail this time because what he learned will be use to improved on the next split along with some strategy to use. Once he has mastered the learning curve then the real successful splits can be made. It seems like eliminating the factors that have the potential to crashed his hive is the biggest issue. Because of the mini early Autumn flow, right now is the perfect time to make a split nuc hive. I would make more nuc splits too. But for the sake of learning and experimentation, I will only focus on a few nuc hives to illustrate here. With the 3 months young queens, these hives will take off like crazy come this early Spring time!

Third years into making small nuc hives and so far without any failure yet. Mel's method can withstand the test of time in
any different bee environment. JG, there will be no failure as long as you keep on learning and applying the improvement method.
Once you've improved so are these successful nuc splits. Successful will be with you once you have mastered these little improvements!



Newly accepted laying queen:


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## Jadeguppy

Do you think I should do two frame splits in the spring instead of five?


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## beepro

If you have not read up on Mel's summer nuc splits (on the web) method then read it for your future reference. In it he described why we
should do a summer split instead of the Spring split. To me the difference is that a late split nuc hive will build up like
it is early Spring time but the season is really in the early Autumn time. Once the queen had a chance to rest a bit then it is the official early Spring time already. For that she will start laying strong since she's only a few months old. The morale is high with so many big fat overwintered eager to work bees building up the hive population.

The hive expansion to catch the early flow will be very significant because there is no need to wait for a newly mated Spring queen. It is nearly impossible to find a mated queen that early.  All you have to do is to give them some sugar bricks or honey water and see this nuc hive take off. I will be using these nuc hives to draw more comb and make up the production colony all ready for the main flow here. Two growing high morale nuc hives combined into 1 will be very good at honey gathering. Now try 3 into 1 to see their potential! These already been tested on last year. The overwintered bees mixed with the new Spring bees will try their best building up the nuc hive. It is even better when it's raining outside because they can stay in more to raised more broods for the main flow expansion and honey collection. 

When you make up a new Spring nuc split already the main flow might be over. Then you have to feed them through out the summer dearth. This will be a waste of your hive resources. A late nuc split will conserved their hive resources over the winter knowing that they will have a long way to go before any new resource is coming in. My sugar bricks and patty subs will be available all winter long for them.

To me whether or not to make up the 2, 3, or 5 frame splits does not matter. As long as the broods are covered so that they will not get the chilled broods. What is more important is the beekeeper's skills level at making up these splits. And knowing what to watch out for as well as what resources are needed to provide for these growing nuc hives. Different seasons have different requirement. Repeating the same situation and mistakes will not make a good split. Kind of seeing the little dog trying to bite its tail by going around in a circle. 

When the weather is in your favor it doesn't matter if you make up a strong or a weak nuc splits. For a strong nuc hive you can take some bees or cap broods into another weaker hive. The same with a very weak hive you can swap the nuc position with another strong nuc hive instantly absorbing all the foragers. I have to juggle a few nucs over time to make things near perfect for them now. This 2 strategy I've learned here will help with any split situation--strong or weak. So as a beekeeper we must know how to solve some of the hive issues when they come up. Over time you will gain these skills and know what to look for with more experiences added. Learning to problem solve thinking like a flow chart (what if) method will help you with a successful split. Knowing to use some of the tools and strategy mentioned here will also help you out tremendously. There is no other way around other than trying it out and learning from our mistakes. The initial set back will always be there but we will not let these get in our way. 

When the new queen is laying, I give them plenty of honey water. Big fat winter bees that don't want to go out foraging anymore. There is plenty for everyone inside. This will immediately eliminate the weather factor gearing them up for this cold rainy winter. The result is....the big fat winter bees!


More broods for me now:


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## Jadeguppy

Thank you beepro. I just read your last posts and appreciate the info.


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## Jadeguppy

I've been thinking about the nuc at my house that was going, but then the fled. I think the hurricane caused water to flood into the hive. If this did happen, am I correct in thinking it caused them to swarm?


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## JWPalmer

Do you have telescoping or migratory tops on the nucs you built? I could see a migratory top allowing enough water in to cause the bees to abscond.


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## Jadeguppy

Telescoping, but the problem was because of the inner cover between the nuc and the med nuc I used to house the syrup. It warped and left a gap on the back corner.


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## beepro

Even though we are in a mild winter area, at times it can be
quite windy and cold on rainy days here. Just now the weather man
announced that there is a cold front with possible rains on
the way. It will only last a few hours ending before the sunrise.
We may or may not get hit by the rains though.

Even then I will not take the risk of letting my 2-3 frame of 
bees get wet or colder than they're used to. So I put a piece of
water proof tarp to cover all the nuc hives. All my nucs
are in a double deep set up now. From reading here if the bees don't
like their hive environment then they will take off no matter what time of the
year it is. The last thing I wanted to see is for them to pack up and leave with the approaching of winter. So
I will do my best to take precaution against any potential environmental attach on these hives. All hive entrances got reduced to a few bees space now. When it gets colder later on I will give them one bee space entrance only.

I can see that your nuc hive may be finding another better shelter because they
don't feel safe inside after this storm. Insects and small animals like snakes, rats, etc. can feel the change in weather more sensitive than us. And especially with a hurricane storm they don't want to stay there for any future potential round. On you tube vid, there was an AHB queen leading her colony through the summer dearth to get to the greener field on the other side of the mountain. This trip took her through a very long journey more than 10 miles, leading her colony through a confrontation with an elephant herd too. Quite impressive that a capable queen can do that in an effort to survive for everyone in her colony. So yes, it is quite possible for a queen to make such a decision for her colony. That is why I don't want to take any chances. 

A well built hive is water proof and secure all the way around. That means no gap or cracks on the walls or cover. During the winter time they like a tightly closed hive cover and a reduced one bee space hive entrance. All I can say is all these will take you through the learning curve much faster. Every specie on Earth has its requirements in order to thrive. Next time I would wrap all the hives in a plastic tarp to make them feel more secure. If the hive entrance is too big then reduced it to one bee space. I do that every winter to conserve the heat inside. This winter will be a heated hive for all of them. Safe, warm and secured!

It all come with experience! To what extent will you go to safe guard your bees?



Plastic tarp on tonight w/coming rains?:


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