# Just open hive from winter...I need to split.



## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

They have frames on the sides, but they want to build up. Do to weather/wind/etc.....I could notfind a time to open this hive. I've see a LOT of pollen coming in. What I'm seeing is good....I think. I feel I should split the hive, perhaps twice, by putting the right frames over the top of a queen excluder into two nucs that I have built for that particular purpose. Then move the nucs off onto their on special made bottom boards. Being 2nd year, I just have zip confidence in what I'm doing.

Questions, anyone see reason not to? The white larva I thought was wax worms...but now think it's bee larvae, ripped open when I pulled frames. You can see I had a sugar block on for winter. They ate right through it, and built comb. Give me some confidence.


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## Hoot Owl Lane Bees (Feb 24, 2012)

Unless you saw Queen cells with larva in them I would just put the inner cover over the frames and close it up for a few days.
They will move over to the other frames.
If they only have a undrawn frame at each end give them another box of frames above.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

Hoot Owl Lane Bees said:


> Unless you saw Queen cells with larva in them I would just put the inner cover over the frames and close it up for a few days.
> They will move over to the other frames.
> If they only have a undrawn frame at each end give them another box of frames above.


Yes I could put on another hive body, but I want to split....only have one hive, which is two double deeps. Although the outer frames on the top deep are not filled out, they are working over all the frames. I'd consider this double deep needing more room. I, for whatever reason, don't have an eye for locating the queen....I see where she's been, but specifically locating her....just something that behooves me. SO...by shaking off the bees of frames with brood, pollen, honey...then putting above the queen excluder....I just let them do their thing. I thought of buying queens for the two new nucs...but think I just let them do it on their own. 

And now, rain again.....and almost all of next week. I do think I'll have a window in the weather that I can do this tomorrow, and leaning on doing just that.


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## Luv2beekeep (Dec 11, 2011)

Without seeing both boxes or the bottom of the bottom box i would say that the hive in the picture is not ready to split. If you don't have 8 frames of bees in both boxes I would let them to continue to build up. What I see in the picture is not a lot of bees. Not trying to burst your bubble, just saying that if you split it with not enough bees you could ruin both hives and end up with nothing.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

Nah, it the reason for posting, for advice. To me the hive is near full, but having never done a split, just not sure. So appriecate it.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

Rereading you response, I'll open the hive tomorrow and take inventory of all the frames. Off hand, bottom box full, top box 5-6 full and they are working on all the frames.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

What is your weather forecast? If I were you I would feed and wait a week and then do a vertical split. Are they bringing in fresh pollen?
Go here for some good info on vertical splits sorry I don't have the links handy but they will pop right up on Google.
The Apiarist
HoneyBeeSuite


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## smokin_trout (May 27, 2014)

Never split without seeing drones or drone brood. 

From just looking at the pictures, they are not ready to split. Watch Mike Plamer YouTube videos about splitting.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

billabell said:


> What is your weather forecast? If I were you I would feed and wait a week and then do a vertical split. Are they bringing in fresh pollen?
> Go here for some good info on vertical splits sorry I don't have the links handy but they will pop right up on Google.
> The Apiarist
> HoneyBeeSuite


Yes, I've studied about vertical split. In my situation of not being able to spot the queen I think that manner of splitting is what I want to try. 

Rainy...tomorrow just cloudy, I could do it, but I've kind of thought of doing just as you say. I may open the hive and look closer at the frames, especially the bottom hive, and kind of ID how I want to put the frames.....but think I'll put this off for a week. Next weekend forecast is pretty good. Those pictures are not representative of the numbers of bees in the hive, since I used smoke on them. To me....the hive is bustling with bees.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

smokin_trout said:


> Never split without seeing drones or drone brood.
> 
> From just looking at the pictures, they are not ready to split. Watch Mike Plamer YouTube videos about splitting.


I'll specially look for drone brood tomorrow. It may indeed be the one short coming on a split right now.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

If you don't have 8 frames of brood, good frames too. Don't split till you do.


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## crabbydad (Apr 29, 2012)

that was drone brood you pulled apart when you removed the top box. I also see drone brood in 1 of the frames


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

crabbydad said:


> that was drone brood you pulled apart when you removed the top box. I also see drone brood in 1 of the frames


What tells you that?


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## crabbydad (Apr 29, 2012)

i can see the drone brood sticking out in the box below. They typically build drone comb between boxes in the spring because they raise a lot of drone in the spring and don't have enough drone comb. Most of the comb already drawn out is worker comb. I see it every spring, after spring, no brood between boxes.


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## blacksheep (Oct 23, 2016)

Drone brood is raised first!


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## Hoot Owl Lane Bees (Feb 24, 2012)

Drone brood is raised first! :scratch:

Not in any of my hives.
Workers come first till the hive is strong enough to support drones.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

That hive is neither full, nor "needing" to be split. 
Patience...


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> That hive is neither full, nor "needing" to be split.
> Patience...


What tell you that with those three pictures?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Are you purchasing queens for the splits, or planning to let them raise their own queens. 

I didn't see any drones in the first pic, just torn open drone cells with larvae. If your planned splits will be raising their own queens you don't want to attempt it until you see mature drones coming and going from the hive.

I agree with others, based on what is seen in the pic this colony is not ready to be split yet. What I see in the picture would amount to a single 5 frame nuc split, and that's the entire hive. Give them more time to continue to develop. I see frames with empty comb not being used yet.

I'll second ... "patience".


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

jcummins said:


> What tell you that with those three pictures?


There's barely any bees.


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## Luv2beekeep (Dec 11, 2011)

this hive is not ready to split yet. getting close but not ready. both top and bottom box are this full.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

Those pictures I posted doesn't represent the bees that WHERE there. With gear on, it is very difficult to take pictures using a cell phone with gloves in a timely manner. I almost took my gloves off, but have been nailed to many times, I did not. And I used some smoke. This hive has pretty good number of bees, but from Luv's picture, it is short of that number. I'm pleased that it does look very healthy though.

SO...I'll wait. This patience thing is not my style. How long???? do I wait? Base strictly on number of bees?


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## ep-bees1984 (Jul 26, 2016)

8 weeks


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

ep-bees1984 said:


> 8 weeks


This is what I find a bit frustrating about beekeeping. I'm only in the 2nd year, learned a lot.....but feel I have no where near the knowledge I need to do this right.

Everything I've red you need to split early spring. 8 weeks from now, puts your 2/3 of the way through spring.


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## Luv2beekeep (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't think anyone here is trying to get you frustrated. Just trying to save you some heartache. Here in Idaho hopefully in two more weeks I will be able to split. Hopefully the dandelions come on because I don't want to bank 50-60 queens for very long. This is my 7th year and I know exactly what you are going through. When I started I had to look in my hives every day. I knew I wasn't suppose to but I just could not help myself. Hang in there and things will change quickly. by the way, I learn something new every year and sometimes every day.


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## ep-bees1984 (Jul 26, 2016)

jcummins said:


> This is what I find a bit frustrating about beekeeping. I'm only in the 2nd year, learned a lot.....but feel I have no where near the knowledge I need to do this right.
> 
> Everything I've red you need to split early spring. 8 weeks from now, puts your 2/3 of the way through spring.


8 weeks may not be accurate cause I cant see the bottom deep. if it is empty of brood, reverse the hive bodies and figure on waiting 8 weeks. I split mid april through the end of june. 8 weeks from now is mid may. mid may splits do very well in my area.


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## billdean (Mar 5, 2016)

jcummins said:


> This is what I find a bit frustrating about beekeeping. I'm only in the 2nd year, learned a lot.....but feel I have no where near the knowledge I need to do this right.
> 
> Everything I've red you need to split early spring. 8 weeks from now, puts your 2/3 of the way through spring.


Wanting to split and needing to split are two different things. It obvious that you want to make a split but by the looks of your hive the need is not there. You don't have to split in the spring. I would suggest you do some more reading and or join a local bee club. If you don't have the knowledge to do it right..don't do it until you do.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I think you should give them a few weeks, and maybe about mid April on a nice warm day go through both boxes. Count the number of frames with brood and see what the population looks like at that time. Let us know what you find. 

"When" to do your splits is not necessarily dictated by the calendar, but by the appropriate strength of the colony.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

jcummins said:


> This is what I find a bit frustrating about beekeeping. I'm only in the 2nd year, learned a lot.....but feel I have no where near the knowledge I need to do this right.
> 
> Everything I've red you need to split early spring. 8 weeks from now, puts your 2/3 of the way through spring.


Generally speaking, best split when the hive is really strong. So strong that bees are "pouring out". If you see some youtube videos, you will see bees literally pouring out. They need to be able to maintain temperature and other hive functions in order after splitting. Premature split could result in hives that struggle through spring. 

If you are going to have one of the hives raise queen, you need general abundance of mature drones around. You can get general idea of that based on drone maturing in your own hive. I can see what looks like capped drone cells between frame 5 & 6 (first picture). Doesnt mean you have mature drones in the area. 

I see 10 frames in the first pic. Not many bees on outside 3 frames. Open cells can be seen on those frames indicating hive still have room to grow. 

Splitting can be done almost anytime, but you have to question yourself on what you want out of it and if conditions are prime to achieve that goal.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

I'll wait until mid April, and open hive take inventory and report back here.

I wish I could take pictures better. I've used both a DSLR, and cell phone, neither work really well. Sticky gloves being part of the problem. 

I do think there are more bees in this hive than the pictures represent, but also agree they have built UP, more so than out.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

Update to my hive(s).

On April 15th, I did a spilt into a nuc. Decided to let them make a queen. I shook off all the bees, put a queen excluder on the main hive, with the nuc over it. This should have left the queen in the main hive. Today, three weeks later I did a hive inspection. We've had a lot of rain etc since the spilt just not conducive to doing anything with bees.

The nuc, looks fairly good to me, except I do not see any eggs. A lot of pollen/honey copped/uncapped. I do not see evidence of a queen. A few queen looking like cells, but not much. Four of the five frames in the nuc are about full. The fifth one is being worked over, but not a lot in it.

The main double deep.....fair number of bees....a lot of pollen/honey etc, just like the nuc, but also a lot of empty brood frames. I see no evidence of egg laying, I do see several queen cells all opened up.

It looks like there is no queen in either one????

Bees are packing it in, not sure what my next action is.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I grafted just a couple of days before you made your splits. To my knowledge none of those queens are laying yet, but I haven't checked. They should have been having good mating weather finally for the last few days.

I would really hesitate to suggest someone with a single colony split as early as you did. A WHOLE lot can go wrong that early in the midwest. But will admit that I don't know where Creal Springs is in IL. Regardless, there's been a ton of rain and cool weather (we had frost just a few days ago) up this way. Not seeing eggs in either is a concern. Was their any open brood at all? Were the queen cells emergency cells or were they built purposefully as queen cells?


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

Illinois is a long vertical state. I'm in the extreme bottom of the state about parrell with Springfield, Mo. 

I saw no open brood. Not sure how to distinguish difference in queen cells. If they are queenless...won't they make a new one?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

jcummins said:


> Illinois is a long vertical state. I'm in the extreme bottom of the state about parrell with Springfield, Mo.
> 
> I saw no open brood. Not sure how to distinguish difference in queen cells. If they are queenless...won't they make a new one?


They should, but that doesn't mean she didn't get eaten by a bird. Or lost in the breeze or something. Technically her window isn't closed, but if you're that far down in IL, I can't imagine her not having had much better chances to mate than anything up here. How good are you at spotting eggs normally?


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

Terrible at reading frames and understand what's happening so I can make the right decisions. Been at this just over a year and the only queen I've seen is the one I bought and added to the hive last year. It is the part of this hobby that has me frustrated. Feel I'm not controlling things.

Having said that, I was looking close. BUT I have in the past posted a few pics of frames on here and others point out things that I just don't see. I tried taking pics for study after closing the hive up, but haven't come up with a method of taking them with gloves etc on, and doing it all by yourself. Perhaps it's what I need to try and do again.


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

Just a vague suggestion from a newbie. I don't have a "smart phone," but they are getting pretty smart. You may find a voice-activation feature for your camera. If the focus features are adequate, either fixed or auto, perhaps with voice-activation you can take images with your gloves on. Or set up a tripod and hold the frames up to it of which you want pics.

Second full year beekeeper here, too. Learning, learning. learning. The split advice you've been getting seems good, but summer is coming close now. Bees need bees to raise brood. One queen and a few nurses won't cut it. It's an exponential kind of process until it reaches the limit of the queen's laying capacity. You were nowhere near that, and a split would have strongly limited your worker bee production. It's not so tightly limited in warm weather, as the bees don't have as much "furnace duty" to serve as in cold weather. So low population splits in cold weather set you back in bee production by a time measured in calendar weeks. That's a serious hit to honey or to bee production, especially if you have a post-spring dearth (as we do here in S.E. VA).

Michael


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