# Home bred queens or bought queen



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I think raising my own queens is best for me. I get mixes of genetics with what I have. There are pros and cons of keeping pure strain bees, and for keeping mixed gene bees as well. I gauge the performances and use the best queens to raise more from. The choice will be yours, which way to go, to purchase pure strain queens or raise your own and get mixed genetics ongoing.


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> I have been thinking about local breeding or keeping my bee races pure by purchasing queens.
> 
> This is a pic of my Haplo 15 queen AMM which is yard breeder. I think there are some Ligustica or Buckfast Genes.


The bees in picture look perfectly normal German Carnica bees: slender abdomens and grey stripes. Carnica queens have sometimes orange colouring, as did the workers originally... the race definition in Germany is not allowing orange spots on the top of abdomen sides. 

AMM= _Apis mellifera mellifera _is BLACK, meaning totally black. No stripes. AMM has very thick and wide abdomen, which has not the kind of sharp tip like the bees in picture. Heary coat is also thick and long.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

How come the carnis queen has the orange coloring?
Must be a mutt queen then. I have them here too.
A true carnis queen is dark all over without any gray stripes.
OT's carnis match my posted carnis queen too.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Juhani Lunden said:


> The bees in picture look perfectly normal German Carnica bees: slender abdomens and grey stripes. Carnica queens have sometimes orange colouring, as did the workers originally... the race definition in Germany is not allowing orange spots on the top of abdomen sides.
> 
> AMM= _Apis mellifera mellifera _is BLACK, meaning totally black. No stripes. AMM has very thick and wide abdomen, which has not the kind of sharp tip like the bees in picture. Heary coat is also thick and long.


You are right.
Please accept my apology. I should have named them MHB not AMM. I will do so in future.


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

beepro said:


> How come the carnis queen has the orange coloring?
> Must be a mutt queen then. I have them here too.
> A true carnis queen is dark all over without any gray stripes.
> OT's carnis match my posted carnis queen too.


Here is picture






from Friedrich Ruttners book, world famous expert in beeraces.
The text under the picture in English:
"The leather coloured spots and stripes in Carnica bees are seen in some hives in some percentage of the individuals in the whole living area of this race."

Grey colouring in particular is important, that is a very distinctive to Carnica and separates it from AMM bees.


----------



## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

3 km is not very isolated. If you want to control breeding of queens and you are not isolated, you probably should look up instrumental insemination. The really high-bred queens that sell for $200 in the US are mated this way.

II is not so difficult that an interested beekeeper can't learn it. Check on the queen and bee breeding forum.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

<Grey colouring in particular is important, that is a very distinctive to Carnica and separates it from AMM bees.>

Well ok, just looked this up (Nordbiene-Forum) and I must have F1.

I want my bees to requeen themselves but to keep their traits especially the hygienic behavior.
My Carnis which are not originated from a resistant line are on small cells since 6 years, not treated since 3 years and requeened themselves since 3 years.

My MHB (or AMM) mated queen (sc queen) was introduced last years springtime into a Carni colony split.
The two splits I made this year are F2 and the color is much more yellow, because the queens mated with Buckfast and Carnica drones too.

All hives are strong build and do the hygienic behavior.

I believe that genetic is only a third of factors necessary for surviving without treatment.
The other two are feeding and handling by the beekeeper and whether they have enough worker bees to clean the hive (strength).

But I may be wrong.

What I observed is all bees are defensive (the carnies less), very agile and tolerant of cold temperature while collecting.
Genes? Or just the small bees coming off 4.9 cells?

What do we know about bees, we manipulate them all the time.
Are bee hives not a unit where bees want to breed their own queen?
Why are introduced queens often superseded do you know?


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If the carnis look like the yellow band Italians bees then I will be all confused here.
Typically the yellow bands are id as Italians here and the dark body carnis queen or workers with the gray strips are the carnis.
This way I will not be too confused when working with the breeding program. It just so happens that we have 90% carnis drones out
there and my Italians/Cordovan queens will be mixed in. Some queens are a hybrids of the gentle carnis and Italians too. The workers are 50/50% of each.
What is so interesting is that there is a clear distinction of color between the Italians and the carnis, no mixed in color. Either id as Italians or carnis workers. So the queen
for the F2 will be either a carnis or an Italians queen. Will be fun this coming Spring time to take some graft from. 

Are bee hives not a unit where bees want to breed their own queen? Definitely a yes. That is why when you take a frame of attached bees with eggs/larvae
into a new hive they will make their new queen cells to preserve their own queen (genetics.)
Why are introduced queens often superseded do you know? Again, to preserve their own genetics and to adopt to the local environment since the workers
have no way of knowing where the old queen come from. This will help the hive for better survival since local is what beekeeping is all about. Raising the
local queen is a way to ensure their survival in a new environment. New queen with local drones will give more adapted local workers. A risk that they are willing to take whether or not they know about the DCA, locally.


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

beepro said:


> If the carnis look like the yellow band Italians bees then I will be all confused here..


Equally confused were all the carni breeders in the original homelands of that race. So they decided that no leather coloured (orange) stripes or dots are allowed. Simple.
Result: Pure Carnica today has no orange dots. Pure Carnica is no longer looking like the original race did. 

Just like you wrote, a crossing with Italian is easily detectable. 
This is just an anecdote, but it shows the results of pure race breeding. Race changes to look/behave like the definition of that race. If definition says no orange dots are allowed, then after some years dots disappear.


----------



## mobe_45 (Mar 14, 2015)

To create a pure strain bred queen, you will need to have at least 10500 acres with your queen and the mating drones in the middle of it. Not sure how many generations of breeding it takes for bees. To get back to what is accepted as purebred in dogs, it takes five generations. Nearly 100% of all queens you buy have been cross bred with more than one breed of drone.


----------



## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

mobe_45 said:


> To create a pure strain bred queen, you will need to have at least 10500 acres with your queen and the mating drones in the middle of it. Not sure how many generations of breeding it takes for bees. To get back to what is accepted as purebred in dogs, it takes five generations. Nearly 100% of all queens you buy have been cross bred with more than one breed of drone.


I thought that's why the top breeders use instrumental insemination rather than letting their queens fly and maybe encounter no-account drones.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

II is used so that both parents are known. When both parents are known, traits can be selected for or against easily. Random mating on the other hand gives no control over the drone component in the mating. This is the crux of the question Sibylle is asking.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

True statement, dar,
I decided to raise my own mutt queens.
Why?
- My mentor told me, the queen will be in her prime in the second year. So how do commercial bee breeders recognize their success if they sell the queens in their first year?
- The flow and good stores will be a main factor in raising healthy queens, this I`m able to influence myself, using a good flow. I believe the natural pollen being much more valuable than artificial feed, so making splits at the right time will enforce this. How much Gelee Royal is used in cells is a main factor in my scorecards, we find it very important.
- Commercial bee breeders use small amounts of bees to breed many queens. This small amount of bees is , in my opinion under pressure by trying with all their might to get strong again, which to me means, their main struggle is to breed and breed and breed.
I`m doing strong splits. This strong hives are able to clean much more throughly, as I have seen. They have the time and the necessary amount of bees.
- my own queens will be adapted to my local environment. I believe this adaption needs a minimum of 2 years (speculation). So I will use egg stripes of local tf beekeepers who use small cells.
- I`m trusting my bees that out of 25 queen cells the best queen will emerge and survive. Commercial bee breeders will use and sell all queens. Even those the bees reject when they are introduced in new hives. To me, hives are an unit. So, if I buy a new queen, I will buy a whole hive with a health certificate.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So how do commercial bee breeders recognize their success if they sell the queens in their first year?

A picky beekeeper like myself will talk when buying from the commercial bee farms.
If they are not good queens then they will lose my business the next time. Just like
anything else we buy if it ain't good forget about it.
So being a commercial operation they have their reputation to keep. For sure we
don't have the chance to evaluate their queens compared to the ones that we raised
ourselves. I'm sure in order to keep up their good reputation they already have
a process in place to ensure the queens' quality. And I'm sure they have thoroughly evaluated their many breeder queens in order to take some grafts from.
By grafting from the best queens the daughters are ensured too. And when the
quality goes down I'm sure the buyers will let them know or take their business
somewhere else the next season. Like you I'm through with the commercial type
queens. I will go with the small operation that have good queens. Then take some
grafts to bred the local mutt queens. Once they are mutted adjusting to the local
environment is not an issue after the 2nd generation.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Home-bred. 
It's pretty easy to end up being queen rich if you want to be.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Beepro:


> I'm sure the buyers will let them know or take their business
> somewhere else the next season.


No, they blame themselves. The breeders are much respected.
And they deserve it, in my eyes, if they breed important traits like resistance.

But as long as honey crop and gentleness is the favorite trait I will not buy any queen. I look forward to traits like vsh and much use of propolis. Or balance between flow and amount of brood.
Or flying at low temperature. Or defense readiness concerning wasps...
Brood breaks when infested would be a good trait ...and so on...


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Sibylle, the best argument that I have for raising my own queens is two-fold. First, as Aunt Betty touched on, it is very helpful to have queens available when you need them and not have to order them from far away. Second, it is so much fun; Honey producing is interesting, but backyard queen production is fascinating and satisfying. Go for it. Have fun.


----------



## GBF (Dec 3, 2015)

beepro said:


> So how do commercial bee breeders recognize their success if they sell the queens in their first year?


 If you want a young mated queen then there is no any garanty on her quality, but if the queen is a good pedigree and her mother and father line are proven than you have a good chance to get what you desired.. If you want to get a proven queen then - yes, it must be 1-2 yrs old.


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Sibylle, the best argument that I have for raising my own queens is two-fold. First, as Aunt Betty touched on, it is very helpful to have queens available when you need them and not have to order them from far away. Second, it is so much fun; Honey producing is interesting, but backyard queen production is fascinating and satisfying. Go for it. Have fun.


Well said. Queen rearing opens a whole new world in your beekeeping carrier, you will be hooked for good...


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

My locations are not isolated enough I fear, but maybe I´m able to do a little selection.
My tf friends can be reached in an one hour drive, I will be able to have a queen in an emergency, or I will combine my weakest hives.

To be hooked...I´m hooked already to tf beekeeping.
Seeing even all those treated hives crash once more and beekeepers giving up, I will be isolated in no time. Two big keepers gave up working after loosing their apiaries to AMF last autumn.

Who knows what future brings! I´m not afraid...I`m glad to have something to look forward to.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

AMF?


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Oups 
It`s AFB I meant.
Sorry.


----------



## GBF (Dec 3, 2015)

SiWolKe said:


> My locations are not isolated enough I fear, but maybe I´m able to do a little selection.
> My tf friends can be reached in an one hour drive, I will be able to have a queen in an emergency, or I will combine my weakest hives.
> 
> To be hooked...I´m hooked already to tf beekeeping.
> ...


To raise your own queens is a good thing. But there have to be the worthy breeder and the right conditions for raising queens, which will have a big chance to survive and to bring some crop. I am sure, it is a mistake to try the treatment free managment with all kind of bees. There are strains of bees that more adjusted for the TF way of living and there are the strains that less adjusted. When someone asking me about TF, I don't tell them - all you need, just stop to treat... Because in this case they can lose all their hives... For begginers much more better to buy a few young queens from proven stock and to rear queens for all their hives.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

GBF said:


> To raise your own queens is a good thing. But there have to be the worthy breeder and the right conditions for raising queens, which will have a big chance to survive and to bring some crop. I am sure, it is a mistake to try the treatment free managment with all kind of bees. There are strains of bees that more adjusted for the TF way of living and there are the strains that less adjusted. When someone asking me about TF, I don't tell them - all you need, just stop to treat... Because in this case they can lose all their hives... For begginers much more better to buy a few young queens from proven stock and to rear queens for all their hives.


Bring some crop. That`s the most important thing all, even the resistant bees breeders, want. It`s mostly on top of their list.
That`s ok for someone who's income depends on bees.

But there are those, who just want to have healthy bees and take out some honey for themselves.
We have the luxury to try this with our own bee mutts. 

No, you can`t just stop treating. You need a special management and someone to show it to you.

But no special bees. My Carniolans are not treated for over ten years, they are mutts nearly as long as that time and they are still alive ( their descendants). Never a queen was introduced.

Sorry to all bee breeders who breed for crops, tf or not. I believe it`s promotion. 
Maybe there are some bees lines more suitable, but using the wrong management, they will loose their resistance (I`m not thinking of treatments).


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Sibylle, be careful about becoming too certain about anything with bees. Each time I've thought I had them figured out, something came along and proved me wrong. My thought is that genetic tolerance must be in bees before they can survive a disease or predator. It is possible to keep bees treatment free for a few years yet a change either in the mites or in the environment can cause them to suddenly die from mite syndrome.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

True, dar.
Nature, or man`s influence, for example spraying, is not to be controlled by management, I know I will have a crisis sometime.

But I believe, genetic tolerance will come with natural selection or with husbandry following this direction.
I believe bees must be regressed to local environment, which includes flow plants, climate, spraying, microfauna...
I believe they must be regressed to natural small cell comb using their own wax...

If nature takes it`s toll, that`s ok with me. 
Even if they all die and I have to start again.

But if I struggle the whole time to keep them healthy with treatments or too much management and they will die in spite of it, that`s not ok. 
I see this often enough and it`s written here in forum too.


----------



## GBF (Dec 3, 2015)

SiWolKe said:


> Bring some crop. That`s the most important thing all, even the resistant bees breeders, want. It`s mostly on top of their list.
> That`s ok for someone who's income depends on bees.
> 
> But there are those, who just want to have healthy bees and take out some honey for themselves.
> We have the luxury to try this with our own bee mutts.


That is not the most important thing.. The most important is the ability to survive. But if a colony cannot make some crop - then there is something wrong with the colony. It is a nature of the colony to bring more that it needs in.. 



> No, you can`t just stop treating. You need a special management and someone to show it to you.


When experenced beek is loosing 40-50% of his hives do you guess he is lack the special managment?... 



> But no special bees. My Carniolans are not treated for over ten years, they are mutts nearly as long as that time and they are still alive ( their descendants). Never a queen was introduced.
> 
> Sorry to all bee breeders who breed for crops, tf or not. I believe it`s promotion.
> Maybe there are some bees lines more suitable, but using the wrong management, they will loose their resistance (I`m not thinking of treatments).


Your statement about no special bees and 10yrs and never queen introducing shows that you are successful TF beek..  I am not so successful - we lost a lot of hives and Im saying those things from my expirience... Anyhow you questioned here about home bred queen or bought just for fan isn't it?


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

GBF said:


> That is not the most important thing.. The most important is the ability to survive. But if a colony cannot make some crop - then there is something wrong with the colony. It is a nature of the colony to bring more that it needs in..
> When experenced beek is loosing 40-50% of his hives do you guess he is lack the special managment?...
> 
> Your statement about no special bees and 10yrs and never queen introducing shows that you are successful TF beek..  I am not so successful - we lost a lot of hives and Im saying those things from my expirience... Anyhow you questioned here about home bred queen or bought just for fan isn't it?



What about the flow and weather? What`s a crop queen telling her girls: eat mud? Drink rain? I would like to have bees which make a brood break then.
The ability to survive is the most important thing for all of us. But I want them to survive without much help.

40-50% loss, I would be so happy in my first year of beekeeping! There are years with 90% loss like 2014. Or no losses at all.
But if you start beekeeping, you need help and you have to educate yourself.
I`ve heard of so much queen squashing for example. 

No I`m not sucessful. My mentor is. I need some more years. But I`m in awe of him.
When I started this thread some time ago I was very unsure. All beekeepers except my mentor talked about buying resistant queens. 
But now, after reading so many threads here, I´m convinced I will be able to breed my own queens which are tolerating sickness.


----------

