# Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees



## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

I know very little about them, in fact, I didn't even know they existed until just recently. Jean-Marc (member here) works with them in Canada, but I've never come across them in the United States. 

I'd like to discuss Caspian bees in this thread. What do you know?


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Caspian Bees, Or Caspian solution? Do not know that Caspian bees are nothing more than our feral mutts. I would like to see some tractable genetic profiles. or well documented research. They may be all that is claimed, I do not know anyone who has real world experience to relate. Other than claims made by Hussein's representative.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Apis mellifera meda?

Wayne


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

waynesgarden said:


> Apis mellifera meda?
> 
> Wayne


That might be what is being referred to as Caspian bees. I thought they might descend through the caucasian line, since they were described to me as being very docile, and easy to work with. 

But honestly, I'm completely ignorant on the subject.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I believe Robert Russell did the definitive genetic study on them and developed them into the super bee they are today.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Robert Russell had nothing to do with Caspian bees. Let`s be clear on this point. Caspian bees are Apis mellifera mellifera based on cubital index measurements. They are however very gentle. The line was developed in sync with Caspian solution production.

Jean-Marc


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## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

If I remember correctly :scratch:, Dave Miksa in Fl was has caspians for sale last year.
Nick
gridleyhollow.com


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

funwithbees said:


> If I remember correctly :scratch:, Dave Miksa in Fl was has caspians for sale last year.
> Nick
> gridleyhollow.com


Thanks for the heads-up, he's in my neck of the woods so I sent him a an email, asking about Caspians.


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

jean-marc said:


> Robert Russell had nothing to do with Caspian bees. Let`s be clear on this point. Caspian bees are Apis mellifera mellifera based on cubital index measurements. They are however very gentle. The line was developed in sync with Caspian solution production.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Jean-Marc, do Caspians exhibit any hygienic behavior? Are they more, or less, resistant to typical bee problems? 

Since they are probably somewhat related to caucasian bees, do they exhibit any of the common traits of that line?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I don't know much. Bought some Caspian cells from Miksa last summer to try them out. I like what I've seen. Dark stripers mostly with some yellow stripers. The yellow is more orange than yellow. I wintered them in nuclei. I think they are among the best queens from last summer. I used one very impressive daughter as a breeder for the last few weeks, and just caught the first daughters today. Again...mostly dark stripers with orange highlights. Many laying well in the mating nucs.

Miksa's stock comes from a breeder in British Colombia. Perhaps Jean-Marc knows more about that. Miksa told me they may be a Buckfast line.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jean-marc said:


> The line was developed in sync with Caspian solution production. Jean-Marc


What does Caspian Solution have to do with it?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Dave Miksa had some last year. That is correct. Caspian bees build very fast in the spring unlike caucasians. They had to because they survived in harsh high elevation conditions. They brood up nice even under cold conditions.

Jean-Marc


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> ... Miksa told me they may be a Buckfast line.


That's odd, since Buckfast bees can be fairly aggressive. But what do I know. I didn't even know about Caspians before Jean-Marc mentioned them. Maybe Mr. Miksa can help me out. He's in Florida and I'm in Georgia, so he's fairly close.

Do Caspians demonstrate any hygienic traits?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Mike, they are not a Buckfast line... nothing to do with them. Developed by different guys at different times in different places.
Hossein or Caspian Apiaries, developed Caspian solution and the Caspian bees. He has a unique selection plan. It is part of the production of caspian solution. It kinda goes hand in hand. 

In broad strokes queens are removed from possible breeders and made into nucs. The rest of the population is divided into 4 frame nucs. frames of eggs and larvae are added. When the bees cap the larvae those frames are removed, other frames of egg and larvae are added. Keep doing this until bees are exhausted. Best bees can do this 3 to 3.5 times. Some bees when made queenless suicide... they just fly off never to return. Sorry boys from down under but that is what we see. Others next door can do 1-1.5 frames... North American stock can do this 2 maybe 2.5 times. Caspian 3-3.5. 

There are other selection methods that he has but they all point to the same answer. It boils down to the ability of the bees to collect pollen, store it, turn it into jelly to fed larvae to make bees... in a nutshell. These bees are the best at it. They may not be the best bees in the world, but they are not number 5 either. They are simply better as far as my experience is concerned.

The bees sent to Dave was a big scramble and little to no effort was made in the selection yet the reports were positive.

Jean-Marc


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jean-marc said:


> The bees sent to Dave was a big scramble and little to no effort was made in the selection yet the reports were positive.
> Jean-Marc


Are breeder available that are properly selected?


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## David (Nov 15, 2011)

Caspian bees are from Irak. There is a breeder about 2 hours from were I live. They are smaller and can live better with varroa. He says that before he had 20% winter loss and now has 3%.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Perfect! Now we have another line of bees to deal with the mites.
Is this line a different type of bee or a decedent of the carnis?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Caspian is from Iran. They may or may not live better with varroa. Hossein makes no such claims. He did have some lines that were better but they are hard to keep going. If anything the bees are bigger. I think if memory serves me right they build cells at 5.4 mm hence bigger. Said breeder got them from Hossein. We work with him. Nice to hear his losses were lowered.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

The bees are Apis mellifera mellifera... not carnies, not caucasians. He called them Caspian likely because of strong nationalistic tendencies. They are good bees.

Jean-Marc


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Vance G said:


> I believe Robert Russell did the definitive genetic study on them and developed them into the super bee they are today.


Ha Ha that was pretty funny Vance. 

But thanks Jean-Marc for elaborating. If MP likes them they must be good.

Kinda frustrating for me in the South Pacific, always reading on Beesource about these bee strains I would love to get my hands on, but can't.


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

jean-marc said:


> Mike, they are not a Buckfast line... nothing to do with them. Developed by different guys at different times in different places.
> Hossein or Caspian Apiaries, developed Caspian solution and the Caspian bees. He has a unique selection plan. It is part of the production of caspian solution. It kinda goes hand in hand.
> 
> *In broad strokes queens are removed from possible breeders and made into nucs. The rest of the population is divided into 4 frame nucs. frames of eggs and larvae are added. When the bees cap the larvae those frames are removed, other frames of egg and larvae are added. Keep doing this until bees are exhausted. Best bees can do this 3 to 3.5 times. Some bees when made queenless suicide... they just fly off never to return. Sorry boys from down under but that is what we see. Others next door can do 1-1.5 frames... North American stock can do this 2 maybe 2.5 times. Caspian 3-3.5. *
> ...


Jean-Marc, All races of bees have advantages and drawback, in your opinion what are the drawbacks of the Caspian bees?

Can you explain the part in red, in greater detail, I'm afraid I'm not understanding what you are doing.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Colonies are made queenless by removing the queen and making a nuc with her... the queeright and queenless hives are all labelled in case lateron you wish to use such and such a colony for breeding.

The queenless bees are then further divided. Assuming that at the start you had a good double, and everything was divided evenly each nuc should be about 4-5 frames of bees. Removes all brood from all queenless nucs. Then add 1 frame of eggs and larvae to all nucs. When it is capped over remove that frame then add another frame of eggs and larvae. Keep doing this until you find the colony that can do this the most. Caspian bess do this 3.5 times or so.

What is being done is an attempt to find bees under similar conditions of similar strength that will have the ability to take eggs and larvae and make capped brood. This ability translates into very good bees.

You also labelled all the nucs so you know which queen is the champion. From 10 there could be 2 or 3 outstanding ones. Now you have a direct physical evidence of a superior ability that ultimately means better bees. During the selection program you have an answer in about 30 days. Then you can graft from these. Using conventional selection plans you need to wait one year before you find out if you made the right selection.

Jean-Marc


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Where can I get some queens from?


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

Jean-Marc, I was wondering if you can elaborate on a few characteristics of Caspian bees. 

What about queen longevity? These days we're seeing relatively short queen longevity. 50% of our hives are needing to be re-queened every 8 months or so, and we're requeening at least annually. Decades ago queens had greater longevity. Now, it's probably environmental stress, but it might also be genetics. In your experience what kind of queen longevity are you seeing in the Caspian line? How often do you requeen your hives? Is there any advantage to Caspian bees?

Since they are fast at population buildup is swarming a problem? Do they have more, or less of a tendency to swarm then other races of bees?

What about hygienic behavior? How well do they handle hive pests (mites, beetles, wax moths)?

Thank you.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jean-marc said:


> What is being done is an attempt to find bees under similar conditions of similar strength that will have the ability to take eggs and larvae and make capped brood. This ability translates into very good bees.
> Jean-Marc


How does this ability translate into selecting for good bees? Are there really bees that don't know how to rear brood....taking eggs and larvae to sealed brood stage. Surely there must be more in the selection criteria? Things like honey production, wintering ability, disease resistance, gentleness, etc. 

Not being critical, just trying to understand the process and theory.


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## Uberwilhelm (Mar 7, 2013)

We just installed two Caspian nucs and I must say they are extremely mellow. I think I had one actually bonk me in the face during the install and that's about it. I just did a quick inspection (been about two weeks) and they seem to be moving right along. I didn't want to bother them too much but will dig further into them in maybe another two weeks. Did I mention that they are very calm and mellow?


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Uberwilhelm said:


> We just installed two Caspian nucs..


Since you just installed a couple nucs, can you tell us who is supplying them in the Northeast?

So were they very calm and mellow?

Wayne


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Since you mention they are the AMM, are they the same color as the Irish black bees too?
I thought that we don't have any AMM here anymore. There are those mean black bees that some 
beekeepers mention.


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

jean-marc said:


> The bees are Apis mellifera mellifera... not carnies, not caucasians. He called them Caspian likely because of strong nationalistic tendencies. They are good bees.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Jean-Marc, are you sure the Capsians are Apis Mellifera Mellifera, isn't that the European Dark Bee? Or are you saying that Caspians descend from Apis Mellifera Mellifera?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I am sure they are Amm. That is what I was told from Hossein. That is the European dark bee. 

Jean-Marc


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## brettj777 (Feb 27, 2013)

I can't believe this thread is still going....a made up race of bees to suck the money out of gullible beeks.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Since they are the AMM, how come some beekeepers on some posts said we don't have the
AMM here anymore. So how pure AMM are they? They cannot be the AMM if they are half yellow, right.
Any pics you can post from Houssin or from yours?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well the Caspian thing has suddenly arrived on the net in my little country, check this, starting at post #35 by Apiqueen.

Seems Hossein literally saved Canada's bee population after being hired by their government. What a guy!

http://www.nzbees.net/forum/threads/video-of-afb-hive-being-burnt-in-nz-concerns.5902/page-2


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I zoned out when GMO crops decimating the world started popping up....


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> How does this ability translate into selecting for good bees? Are there really bees that don't know how to rear brood....taking eggs and larvae to sealed brood stage. Surely there must be more in the selection criteria? Things like honey production, wintering ability, disease resistance, gentleness, etc.
> 
> Not being critical, just trying to understand the process and theory.


This! 

I am interested in learning more about these bees. Can you please provide more detail in explaining the link between "making capped brood" and "very good bees." It is an interesting method, but I am not seeing the logical connection between the "making capped brood" and either disease/pest tolerant or high honey production or some other practical trait?

In other words, the process of:

"_The queenless bees are then further divided. Assuming that at the start you had a good double, and everything was divided evenly each nuc should be about 4-5 frames of bees. Removes all brood from all queenless nucs. Then add 1 frame of eggs and larvae to all nucs. When it is capped over remove that frame then add another frame of eggs and larvae. Keep doing this until you find the colony that can do this the most. Caspian bess do this 3.5 times or so._"

is an entirely man-made selection criteria, i.e., not something a hive is going to experience when put into production. Consequently, what "real world" trait is this selecting for?






.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

brettj777 said:


> I can't believe this thread is still going....a made up race of bees to suck the money out of gullible beeks.


Please explain


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## cgybees (Apr 20, 2015)

beepro said:


> Perfect! Now we have another line of bees to deal with the mites.
> Is this line a different type of bee or a decedent of the carnis?


Well, there's also the Saskatraz..

http://www.saskatraz.com/abstract.htm


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

brettj777 said:


> I can't believe this thread is still going....a made up race of bees to suck the money out of gullible beeks.



Hmm. Let me see. As far as I know the 20 queens that went south 2 years ago to California were given. So I supplied 20 that day, I think Hossein a few more. I got zero dollars from all the gullible beeks. Dave Miksa got a few from that lot, no royalties, no payment. Apparently he liked them enough that he wanted more. None were sent. Too busy over here.

As far as made up... well whatever... they go through a unique selection plan , came from a certain part of the world, and we have what we have. Like it or not, believe what I say or not, it ultimately does not matter. A few breeders get sent to California and we get some queens back for our own use or for sale in nucs or singles. For the most part customers are happy.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Almost forgot, the best and only way to make sure that a thread does not continue, is to make sure that you not contribute.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

shinbone said:


> This!
> 
> I am interested in learning more about these bees. Can you please provide more detail in explaining the link between "making capped brood" and "very good bees." It is an interesting method, but I am not seeing the logical connection between the "making capped brood" and either disease/pest tolerant or high honey production or some other practical trait?
> 
> ...


I am not sure what the exact link is other than it is. Some bees Mike P. cannot make capped brood very well. For instance bees that have come to Canada from Australia are notoriously bad at it. If you take a good colony population wise, and remove the queen to make a nuc... then divide the remaining bees into nucs, the adults commit suicide. I would say more than half fly off to their death. They simply abandon the brood. Why? I dunno. They just do. I have seen it more than once... slow learner.

The method to make the selection points to the descendants of the queen that can take the same amount of resources available to all and make more bees with the available resources. This translates into more bees more honey.

As far as gentleness goes it comes from this behavior. In Iran and I have seen firsthand in Australia lids that are about 2 inches deep. They are of the exact width and length as the honey supers or brood chambers. Inner covers are a piece of fabric... beekeeper choice. The lids have a hole drilled front and back covered with a screen. Entrances to hives are small and have a metal contraption that slides as a door latch and bees can be locked in and moved.

The selection took place when a few hives from the hundreds if not thousands that were moved did not crawl up into the lid. Most bees during transit go up. A few did not. They just sat quietly on the brood. Queens were raised from those particular hives. It means that I have been able to load strong hives just before dark without a veil. I wear eyeglasses, throw a veil on top then cloudiness or nightfall approaching makes for poor visibility. With these bees I can work without a veil to load the bees and not get all beat up. Now I can see without straining too much. How cool is that?

Oldtimer:

I did not read the thread. Hossein is not overly popular with the government. He has not saved the Canadian bee population. On the other hand he did help me save some of mine.

Jean-Marc

P.S.- More later. I am going to the beach with the Mrs.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

JM, so you chose bees that do not climb out of their brood nest.
That means they are not the runny type bees and very calm too.
It is not the mean AMM black bees that others had claimed here back in the 70's.
I believe you in that there is no sense to lied on an open forum about such bees in existence here.
I also read that the AMM forage in rainy, bad weather or later in the evening.
Do you observe such a foraging behavior of your AMM bees too? I have interest in this bees too. How did the
queens do when they got shipped to CA? And how do I go to get such queens?


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## cgybees (Apr 20, 2015)

jean-marc said:


> Almost forgot, the best and only way to make sure that a thread does not continue, is to make sure that you not contribute.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Bump for the good advice :>


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

cgybees said:


> Bump for the good advice :>


I'm not sure I understand.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

They are saying that if you don't want any post/thread to continue, the best advice is to
not respond to it. Then the conversation will end and the next post will take over. 
You have to read everything to get the feel of things otherwise I would be lost too.


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## cgybees (Apr 20, 2015)

beepro said:


> They are saying that if you don't want any post/thread to continue, the best advice is to
> not respond to it. Then the conversation will end and the next post will take over.
> You have to read everything to get the feel of things otherwise I would be lost too.


That's totally what I was saying. (and I'm just responding to this for the amusement value)


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

cgybees said:


> That's totally what I was saying. (and I'm just responding to this for the amusement value)


I'm so confused.


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## Ormigon (Dec 3, 2016)

What they are implying is the caspian queen line is selected for their ability to produce royal jelly. If they are AMM this would mean a lower progeny queen. This would serve the nothern beekeepers quite well. They are also a longer life bee topping out at 52 day summer life span. 
Phenomenal honey producers in short nectar season areas such as Ireland. I'm giving them a try in the late winter nucs where making up shortly.
Btw the caspian solution is a great additive to your feed especially, cell builders. 
Cheers
Tom


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Since this two-year old thread has bubbled back to the surface; anyone users of Caspian bees have any personal experiences to report?


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## alf1960 (Nov 25, 2017)

I would be interested in anybody's experience with Caspian Bees. I just put a Caspian queen in one of my splits I made on Friday.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

alf1960 said:


> I would be interested in anybody's experience with Caspian Bees. I just put a Caspian queen in one of my splits I made on Friday.


Where did you get it (the Caspian queen)?


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## alf1960 (Nov 25, 2017)

GregV said:


> Where did you get it (the Caspian queen)?


 From my brother who got a few with his last order of queens from David Miksa.


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## Ormigon (Dec 3, 2016)

Over wintered good in cold climate. Gentle, smart like carni.
From DM as well 
Luck with em. Housseif is s good bee man bred this NZ ITALIAN to be very successful in royal jelly production and cold climates. 25 plus years selective breeding by a master beekeeper. If Mr Miksa liked them there's a reason.
Dont listen to the all knowing haters. I ran 42 into winter 34 made it. Sone were 2nd year some first year. F2 open mated with carni mongrel stock did well too.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

What Ormigon is calling a Caspian is probably a Caucasian. The Caucasus mountains are just west of the Caspian Sea.


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## Ormigon (Dec 3, 2016)

There is no Caspian bee. It's not a caucasian. It's a New Zealand Italian aclsmated to northern climate and bred for royal jelly.
They dont propaluze like Caucasus. 
Darn good bee in my opinion. But what do I know I only run 200 or so and sell about 100 nuxs and make about 300 qs a year. All in a marginal area. Just my humble etc........


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Ormigon said:


> There is no Caspian bee. It's not a caucasian. It's a New Zealand Italian aclsmated to northern climate and bred for royal jelly.
> They dont propaluze like Caucasus.
> Darn good bee in my opinion. But what do I know I only run 200 or so and sell about 100 nuxs and make about 300 qs a year. All in a marginal area. Just my humble etc........


I checked the Russian side of Google - not a single mention of "Caspian bee".
If anyone, the Russians would know of it before anyone else.
Another marketing trick.

PS: there is Crimean bee; a distinct and separate, natural sub-species it appears.


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## alf1960 (Nov 25, 2017)

Ormigon said:


> Over wintered good in cold climate. Gentle, smart like carni.
> From DM as well
> Luck with em. Housseif is s good bee man bred this NZ ITALIAN to be very successful in royal jelly production and cold climates. 25 plus years selective breeding by a master beekeeper. If Mr Miksa liked them there's a reason.
> Dont listen to the all knowing haters. I ran 42 into winter 34 made it. Sone were 2nd year some first year. F2 open mated with carni mongrel stock did well too.


Thanks. A bee of that description would fit well here in Wisconsin. Regardless of what it is called. I hope it works out well. Time will tell.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

It is probably a very good bee.
Just the name is.... a marketing trick.
Of course, I would do something similar too if breed my own bee.


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