# foundationless deep?



## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I've always used deeps for my hive bodies.
I've used foundationless frames from the beginning. I have found that wiring is not necessary in medium frames, but that it is wise to wire or used fish line in deep frames.
The comb is very soft the first season, and the fish line allows some support for it minimizing the chances of dropping a comb out of the frame. I learned this the hard way.

Have fun.
Enjoy your bees.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i am using a single deep with medium supers, and most of my frames are drawn on mann lake rite cell plastic foundation. i'll continue using the rite cell for the supers, but i am introducing foundationless frames to the deeps (primarily for the middle 6 of the 10 frames) as i rotate frames out for splits and nuc production. i run 2 horizontal wires and secure them with small nails that are bent at 90 degrees so that the wires can be tightened (like tuning a guitar string). my hope is that as i get more of these foundationless frames drawn (that tend to have drone comb on the upper parts of them) that i'll get less drone comb built in the spaces between the boxes, and have plenty of drones available during queenrearing season. the size of the cells in the middle of these foundationless frames varies between 4.9 and 5.1 mm.


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## Sky (Jul 7, 2015)

I too use deeps and foundationless frames - Most of them are not wired and they work fine but do you have to be careful with them until they are all built out. The wires do add a significant amount of support and may help the bees keep comb straight (they can mess up wired frames, so this is not a cure all for good training). 

Yes, there are some folks that sell medium framed nucs - 
I live in NW - it's mostly a double deep show in my area - thus mostly its deep framed nucs that are available here locally. If you are looking for next year, I'd suggest making some calls now to nuc producers to find one that does mediums (or will do a medium for you) and get on their list. (a deposit helps move you up on their list...)

Sky


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## bamabeedude (Jun 2, 2015)

Thanks to all. I only have my one hive, so I have lots of time to plan for next year.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I like my FL deep brood frames better than my FL medium super frames. The reason is the brood frames are set to a good depth for her to lay, but the honey frames just get drawn more and more. Thus making my deep FL, light and straight.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

It helps to make sure your hives are level side to side so the comb doesn't have an angle to it. I had a couple hives that looked level but after the comb had been drawn, it missed the bottoms by about 1/2". I had to be real careful pulling that first frame and I had to start on the side that leaned away from the side of the deep. The wax was attached to the wall on the opposite side so I had a slight mess. I wire my deeps and mediums.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I use deeps and wire them all. Here's a pic of a comb partially built, long as the hive is level they aim the comb at the wire and have the wire running exactly through the middle of the foundation, or midriff part. Wire is also very beneficial for the extra strength it gives and I think that's why the bees make use of it running it exactly through the centre if they can.


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## tim8557 (Feb 6, 2015)

I think that Michael Bush is a proponent for medium supers; both from a structural as well as weight issue.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am thinking of starting a foundationless hive. Can I use deeps for my hive bodies?

You can. But why would you want to? 90 pound boxes are not fun to lift and when they are glued down to another 90 pound box below them they are 180 pounds...

> Would they need to be wired?

If you are doing to do deeps, it might be prudent. I use all mediums and no wire.

> And if I use 3-4 mediums for the hive bodies, are there nuc producers that make medium nucs.

Yes. You'll have better luck finding a medium nuc if you contact the producer now so they can start one if they don't keep them in stock. Deeps are still the norm, but there are many producers doing medium nucs.

> I'm a newbee so talk slowly.

I tried to type it slowly, but it's hard for me to type that slow...


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> are there nuc producers that make medium nucs.
> -----------
> Yes. You'll have better luck finding a medium nuc if you contact the producer now


The customer should be aware that a 5 frame medium nuc only has the comb-area (and bees to cover) of a three-frame deep. In order to simulate the comb-area of a standard nuc, you need *8* frames.

The smaller medium nucs are sub-marginal in population. This means that everything that can go wrong in a new-bee hive does. It means that the producer gets bombarded with calls and requests, "My bees aren't growing..." (of course they aren't, the colony was weeks behind the optimal size).

The call-backs are a huge time sink, and the customer is never happy. For this reason, I've resolved to only sell 8 and 10 frame single-story boxes. These are essentially starter hives (and priced accordingly), but they mean the newbee can simply stack them on her equipment, and the colony has prospered under my care to the point the newbee cannot kill it off.


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