# Warre swarmed twice now what?



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I think you have done the right thing. You have put your swarms in moveable frame hives which are easily inspected, managed and easy to increase in size to make them less likely to swarm. You can keep your Warre as a novelty hive. It can take a month or more to see brood. If it does not make a queen, remove all the honey, protect the combs from pests until spring, and start it up again next year. Or sell it.


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## kayakbiker (Sep 3, 2014)

odfrank said:


> I think you have done the right thing. You have put your swarms in moveable frame hives which are easily inspected, managed and easy to increase in size to make them less likely to swarm. You can keep your Warre as a novelty hive. It can take a month or more to see brood. If it does not make a queen, remove all the honey, protect the combs from pests until spring, and start it up again next year. Or sell it.


Do you think I should divide up the honey and combs and give it to the 2 swarms by wiring it to Lang frames? And if so what do I do with the maybe 1000 bees? I looked again tonight there are like 10 bees in the bottom box on empty combs and the rest are up in the top box working on the combs full of honey. 
What a learning curve bees, Warre and now Lanstroth.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

That is the problem with Warre, to hard to do the manipulations you need to inspect and manage the bees. If it is only 1000 bees queenless, and they are near your Langs, just blow the bees out and let them join the other hives. Harvest the honey in the Warre and preserve combs for next year.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

odfrank said:


> That is the problem with Warre, to hard to do the manipulations you need to inspect and manage the bees. If it is only 1000 bees queenless, and they are near your Langs, just blow the bees out and let them join the other hives. Harvest the honey in the Warre and preserve combs for next year.


Ollie,

Allow me to make a suggestion. Invite other Beekeepers you know to place traps by all suburban Warre' yards as a courtesy to neighbors. I think this would solve a multitude of problems.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Charlie B said:


> Ollie,Allow me to make a suggestion. Invite other Beekeepers you know to place traps by all suburban Warre' yards as a courtesy to neighbors. I think this would solve a multitude of problems.


As president of the local bee club, you would know best where those Warre yards are. I would be glad to furnish the bait hives. But at this point, I only know of two Warre yards locally, and those are managed by me and therefore NEVER lose a swarm.

NOT.


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## kayakbiker (Sep 3, 2014)

Yea I got the idea. I'll give the warre to my biologist neighbor and I'll catch his swarms. That sounds a hell of a lot less stressful and even fun. Then I'll install them in a lang hive that even a amateur can see what is going on and have resources to help with it. Or I'll probably just turn the warre into a expensive bird house. Warre hive sounded good on line on paper, pretty too. Not so good for beginners in towns.


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## kayakbiker (Sep 3, 2014)

My wife thinks that they misspelled the Warre hive it should been spelled Worry hive.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

As I built my first Warres, all women seeing them said "oh those hives are so cute". Hearing that I knew there would be a lot wrong with them.


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## kayakbiker (Sep 3, 2014)

Hahahehe!! Yea I still think it will make a great bird or bat house.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

The Warré hive is a great tool if you know how to use it properly. (As is with any other tool, like the queen excluder...)

Most things I read on beesource about the Warré hive is not appropiate. The biggest problem is, that it is tried to use a Warré hive like a frame hive and a lot of people try to inspect a Warré hive with fixed combs like a frame hive. You need to inspect and treat it like a skep and you can have great success. And of course you need to leave out all the fancy ideas and "improvements" most of us are adding to the system.

If you use frames in a Warré hive it is not a Warré hive anymore, but a frame hive. You need to use frame hive methods. The Warré hive with frames is a great tool, too, since it has the dimensions (two boxes stacked on each other) like an 8 frame Dadant hive. And this is very good for intensive beekeeping. The smallness has some very nice advantages.

1) Less material means less material costs. I can buy 3 fully equipped Warré hives for the price of one Dadant hive. More hives for the same money.

2) Less material means less transportation - or more hives per transport. More hives per trailer. 

3) Frames, boxes and all are handled more easily, because of the low weight and dimensions. 

On the other hand I make the same amount of honey per hive as I do with conventional hives. I have different types of conventional hives running next to my Warré frame hives. It depends more on the bees than it does on the hive. The bees bring the honey, not the hive. The rest is proper management and the right use of the tool. If you know how to work bees right, you can do it with almost any sort of hive. Of course the different hive types all do have advantages and disadvantages. Disadvantages for the beekeeper mostly.

Treat the Warré hive with fixed comb like a skep hive and you are right. The beekeeping manipulations are really old. The book of Nicol Jacobi, written in the Middle Ages exactly describes beekeeping methods like we do today, like transfering combs with larvae to raise queens in another hive. Really, those methods have been known for centuries and are not bound to frame hives. The only thing is, today nobody knows how to do it with fixed combs, because all we know today is how to do it with frames. It all can be done without frames and it is not so difficult when you learned it. I learned beekeeping mostly on fixed comb hives and it teached me a great deal about bees. 

I reckon the Warré hive is a serious hive and must not be stultified. In France there are commercial beekeepers with 500-800 Warré hives (mostly with frames, though), so at least you can make a living on them. That means something. The hive may look cute, but it is a great tool.

Bernhard


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Bernhard,

What is a "Dadant hive"? I looked it up and I just found Dadant & Son's store.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

He he, it is a very popular hive in Europe. Unlike the US. http://www.icko-apiculture.com/en/r...checo-dadant-12-cadres-droit-garnie-cire.html

Funny enough we call it "US modified Dadant hive" although almost nobody in the US knows that hive. 

It has a single deep brood box and mutiple shallow honey supers. It has 10 or 12 frames. Combined with a vertical division board it is a very nice hive to make lots and lots of honey without too much work. It is most popular in France and Italy, and it's popularity grows rapidly in Germany, especially among professional beekeepers and sideliners. They invented a nice management with a constricted or better say: adapted brood nest size. Most brood frames get thrown out in Spring and only seven or so brood frames left, adapted to the queen's laying ability. The side is closed by a vertical division board. Thus all the young bees are directed into the honey supers and so is the honey. 

This is the Dadant system from 1920: http://www.three-peaks.net/PDF/Dadant System of Beekeeping 1920.pdf 

A Warré more or less is the same as the Small hive described in that book.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Thanks Bernhard! 


Kayakbiker,

Did you try to manage it at all or did you just keep an eye on it? Just curious, I got a very late swarm and they filled the top box but didn't move to the second box so I move a comb from the top of the outside two weeks ago and at last check they replaced that comb and had new combs on either side of the one placed in the second box.


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## kayakbiker (Sep 3, 2014)

thehackleguy said:


> Thanks Bernhard!
> 
> 
> Kayakbiker,
> ...


I didn't move comb down into the 3rd box until it was too late. The Warre book I got with the hive and things I read on the website where I got the Warre from said nothing about moving comb. It is advertised as a set it and forget it. All you do is add 2 boxes in the spring and remove 2boxes in the fall. I thought thats easy enough. Well that isn't the case is it? If I was told that I would be moving top bars of fragile comb around I probably (even being a beginner) would have realized that going with a frame hive would be a better option for me. I think that they are neat hives, I like the concept and if I had a large piece of property I think they would be super fun. But the people who sell Warres advertising this hive as set it and forget it should really change that lingo because it isn't true and it isnt responsible beekeeping so set it and forget it. Again unless you don't have neighbors or you plan to send swarms all over neighborhood upsetting uneducated folks. Adding 2 boxes in the spring and walking way isn't responsible beekeeping. I am sure I am not the only person in a town who learned this the hard way.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Copy and paste from an old post:
Hive Sizes

JWG Field Bee December 20, 2006 A couple notes on the larger brood frames:
Historically in North America there were two large brood frame designs, the Dadant and the Langstroth Jumbo. There is no "Dadant Jumbo." The standard Dadant brood frame (like the one used by Br. Adam) has the dimensions 17 5/8 * 11 1/4 inches. There are 11 of these in the Modified Dadant hive, and 12 in the Buckfast Dadant hive. The frames are spaced wider than Langstroth, on 1 1/2" centers (an important difference). Normally used in an 8 or 10 frame configuration. (One of the reasons why the 10 fr. hive became popular is because the 8-fr. had a tendency to tip over.) Frame spacing is 1 3/8" center to center.
The Langstroth Jumbo brood frame is deeper, at 11 1/4", making it similar to the Dadant brood frame, but it retains the narrower spacing. In Britain, many users of National Hives have gone to a 3 1/2 inch-deeper version of the British Standard brood frame, at 14 x 12 in. to allow for a larger continuous brood comb area. This would be analogous to the Jumbo Langstroth frame.
20 years ago you could still get Lang. Jumbo frames and bodies from at least one supplier in Quebec but now they aren't in the North American catalogs anymore that I know of. Posts: 131 | From: Wakefield, MA, USA | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mike Gillmore
Field Bee


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

kayakbiker said:


> I didn't move comb down into the 3rd box until it was too late. The Warre book I got with the hive and things I read on the website where I got the Warre from said nothing about moving comb. It is advertised as a set it and forget it. All you do is add 2 boxes in the spring and remove 2boxes in the fall. I thought thats easy enough. Well that isn't the case is it? If I was told that I would be moving top bars of fragile comb around I probably (even being a beginner) would have realized that going with a frame hive would be a better option for me. I think that they are neat hives, I like the concept and if I had a large piece of property I think they would be super fun. But the people who sell Warres advertising this hive as set it and forget it should really change that lingo because it isn't true and it isnt responsible beekeeping so set it and forget it. Again unless you don't have neighbors or you plan to send swarms all over neighborhood upsetting uneducated folks. Adding 2 boxes in the spring and walking way isn't responsible beekeeping. I am sure I am not the only person in a town who learned this the hard way.



I didn't get a book, but I will agree with you. I found this site a day or so after I got my swarm so I have had some good advice and have read a lot on here. I was going to try to be "hands-off" but was quickly re-directed here that if I wanted them to have any chance over the winter I was going to have to do some management. As a side note I have not had to many problems with fragile comb. I did have one break off the bar when I was trying to remove a hair clip that I mounted it with.....so it went back up with a hair clip. Good luck, I hope you find something that works better for you!


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

kayakbiker said:


> All you do is add 2 boxes in the spring and remove 2boxes in the fall.


Sure you have read the book? There is one chapter on walk-away-beekeeping, yes. But that is a method for special situations. (Distant apiaries. Long distance.) The rest of the (original) book shows various manipulations to handle all sorts of beekeeping issues.



kayakbiker said:


> going with a frame hive would be a better option for me.


Yes, that might be the case. A hive is a tool. A tool must fit your needs. So a very personal decision and no tools fits all. I consult many many beginners and some of them I recommend to use frame hives, because the do not bring the necessary attitude or skills. 



kayakbiker said:


> But the people who sell Warres advertising this hive as set it and forget it should really change that lingo because


I fully agree. It is as nonserious as is the recommendations one can find with small cells, treatment free beekeeping or top entrances. Should be stopped and advertised more carefully. I reckon good ol' Émile Warré would rotate in his grave if he'd know about how his hive and system is advertised.

Read the book by Warré. Most answers you can find in it. 

Bernhard


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## maynard (Jul 7, 2014)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> If you use frames in a Warré hive it is not a Warré hive anymore, but a frame hive


Warre talks about framed versions of the peoples hive in Beekeeping for all.



After reading the rest of you post, I see you know that already. Sorry.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Yeah, in the 5th edition of his book, the early edition, he has used frames side by side to fixed combs. Later in his 12th edition of his book he leaves out frames more or less completely in favour for the fixed combs. Partly due to simplicity. Partly to costs. I reckon the World War and the shortage of everything also could have played a role.

He extracted the fixed combs by using extracting cages and gave back the extracted comb. Something that most Warréors today don't do but which can make a huge difference.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

English translations. 

12th edition:
http://www.users.callnetuk.com/~heaf/beekeeping_for_all.pdf

5th edition: (in French) => lots of pictures of Warré's operation. 
http://warre.biobees.com/warre_5th_edition.pdf

5th edition, some translated parts:
http://warre.biobees.com/warre_5ed_60-71.pdf


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