# Survivor bees vs regular stock and mite counts



## Solomon Parker

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

Unfortunately, mite drops don't tell the whole story. There are mites in the cells as well as wandering around the hive and hanging on to individual bees as well. What percent of these mites are to be found on the bottom board? Nobody knows exactly.

Applying my own cognitive biases to this finding, I could say that there are more mites on the floor of the survivor hive because they're actively getting rid of them whereas the Carniolans are not. That's a justification, not necessarily the correct answer.

There are quite a number of mechanisms by which bees are able to deal with mites. Perhaps they are deficient in one of the mechanisms by which they prevent reproduction, but proficient in a mechanism which rids the hive of grown mites. Again, not necessarily the correct answer.

Real understanding of a colony's abilities comes over the course of a year. I used to live a few miles from Old Sol (my nickname in the future probably) but I don't really remember what times of the year you'll find different behaviors. I do know that your area (SO as well) is generally in a dry time this time of year, brood production may well be declining, leaving more mites wandering around the hive, being knocked to the floor more often. If you are committed to treatment-free practice, watch and wait. High instantaneous mite count does not necessarily correlate to any specific long term condition with treatment-free bees. Last winter I had a hive visibly crawling with mites, and yet it's still alive today.

Keep us updated.


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## whalers

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

Thanks Solomom. You are correct in saying its dry here. I live on the east side of the mountains north of Bend. Brood production could be down as you say. I am going to wait and watch. I might try a powdered sugar dusting just to compare mite loads between the two hives, more out of curiosity than anything else. I will keep you posted.


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## Solomon Parker

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

I've been to Redmond, Richardson's Rock Ranch, Big Lake, The Cove Palisades State Park and other areas around there. Maybe a little drier than I like and higher altitude, but like most of Oregon, very beautiful. I wouldn't refer to most of Arkansas as 'beautiful', no offense to any native Arkansans. The mountains aren't big enough and the trees aren't the right height. 

I used to recommend sugar dusting (not in this forum of course) for those who just couldn't not treat until I discovered a survey (posted a couple of times a few months back) which showed slightly higher (though not statistically significant) mortality on colonies that were sugar dusted. So my view is that if it doesn't help, and may actually hurt, why do it? In truth, much of my case against treatments has hinged on the fact that even the best treatments show only 5-10% lower mortality rate. I don't see that as an acceptable trade-off, not when success is to be had totally treatment-free.


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## whalers

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

Thanks Solomon. With that info. I will pass on the powdering as it was only a curiosity in the first place. I'm looking forward to a honey harvest in about a week. Seems I always do the best with new hives and struggle with the supposedly established ones.


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## gmcharlie

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

You need to use randy Olivers mite count method. 1/4 cup bees in alcohol. any more than 5 is bad. you may be right survivors may be kicking them off, but I Doubt it very much. If they kicked them off regularly you wouldn't have any to count. your bees kicking off 50 a day means there are a lot to kick off. I could make a comment here about small cell is supposed to cure all that but I won't.

The reality is that your survivor stock is probably that because it swarmed on a regular basis, swarming breaks that mite cycle. I do the same thing by removing queens as part of my mite control. Might consider that, cause that many on a drop board is an issue.

For DWV look at teh frames of brood. it will be obvious there, never noticed it outside the hive myself.


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## RiodeLobo

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

t:
I am just finishing a week on Lake Billy Chinook. The Bass fishing has been slow this year and the weather colder and wetter than in the past. Still a great time though.


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## whalers

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

Billy Chinook! Do you live around here?


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## whalers

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

Charlie, I will have a look at the frames of brood and see what I find. As to the small cell, my attitude is that it can't hurt. What I'm really in the process of doing is moving to foundationless. I am seeing great success with it in the second super and in honey supers. I like it and will be trying to figure out a way to move in that direction in the deep supers.


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## cerezha

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*



whalers said:


> The regular stock carniolans had a mite count of 10 in 24 hours.
> The survivor stock had a mite count of 50 in 24 hours.


 I have survivor bees. Right now, my smaller hive (1 deep, 1 shallow) has 24h count of 2. Another hive, which is huge, 6 mediums and very active, has constant mite count around 50. At the beginning, it concerns me since 50 sounds like a huge number. Nevertheless, hive is doing extremely well (by my observation) for the last 10 months. So, I agree with you, that higher mite counts are not necessary an indication of the problem - bees just clean themselves better, thus - more mites away from the hive. My bees actually have a dedicated area at the landing deck for cleaning - they spent quite a bit of time cleaning... there are special controller-bees, who actually do "quality control" and let clean enough bees in, seriously! 
Also, I think, the mite counts must be normalized to the number of bees in the hive. In my case, weak small recently swarmed hive has much smaller counts. I would expect the increase of mite counts as hive is getting stronger. The dead bees at the front is alarming sign. I do not have it. I would watch the hive to see if help needed. So far, I did not treat my bees in any way, they are natural as much as they are. And yes, I am foundationless. I love my survival bees! Sergey


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## RiodeLobo

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*



whalers said:


> Billy Chinook! Do you live around here?


Nope, over in Baker City. However my family reunion is at the reservoir each year.

Back to bees, I am also using a mix of small cell and conventional. The only hive (1/8) that I know that I have major mite issues (seeing multiple bees with mites on board) is on the conventional cells. I am letting the bees do as they will do, but keep pulling the conventional frames and replacing them with small cell.


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## Stu Jacobson

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

I would assume that survivor stock should have fewer mites than unelected stock. However, NWCs have been selected for Varroa resistance and also have been crossed with European CArnis that are supposed to be quite resistant.


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## julysun

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

CEREZHA;"Also, I think, the mite counts must be normalized to the number of bees in the hive." Makes sense, first time I have seen that point.


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## Roland

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

Please take a cappings scrapper and open up drone brood in both hives and report back with your findings.

Crazy Roland


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## cerezha

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*



Roland said:


> Please take a cappings scrapper and open up drone brood in both hives and report back with your findings.Crazy Roland


 Roland
I find it adequate to use a sticky board to evaluate mite counts in my two hives (permitted in SM). Since, the count is stable for the large hive for the 10 months, I feel there is no need to do more invasive counting - it would not change the picture to me. As for small hive - I attribute low counts to recent dramatic swarm, when literally 75% of colony left... My current theory is that the mite count is composed from "mites per bee"; bee's "cleaning efficiency" coefficient; screen efficiency (% mites catch by sticky board) and probably few more factors. Assuming that "cleaning efficiency" and screen factor are constant, than, mite count will increase if (a) population of bees increased and/or (b) "mites per bee" increased. Thus, we need to watch both: bees count and mites count. If bees count decreases and mite count increases - this would be very alarming signal to me - reason, to do a deep inspection. Since, in my large hive, bees number increases and mite count is stable, it actually means (if my theory is correct) that number of mites per bee is decreasing, which is good. Since, I permitted to have only two hives, the management is different from "classical" approach. I am practicing a natural beekeeping. 

By the way, alcohol mite count (1/2 cup of bees) is normalized to amount of bees, 1/2 cup. This is probably most accurate method. Also, in bee class, they told us that on the frame if you actually do see a single bee with mite attached - this is sign of very serious infestation. It corresponds to 10-15 mites in alcohol test (we did a comparison).
Sergey


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## julysun

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

Roland, Good post. Info I can use. I think I will use the alcohol method. Will need to read up a bit, not sure what bees to take old or new.


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## Roland

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

I find it adequate to use a sticky board to evaluate mite counts in my two hives

And I don't, which is why I asked for a drone brood report. I do not care how many mites are dying, I care how many mites are being born.

Cerezha wrote:

I am practicing a natural beekeeping. 

SO naturally you will have mites? Or are natural mites better?

Crazy Roland


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## Che Guebuddha

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*



whalers said:


> Question - Since survivor bees are supposed to be better at cleaning themselves of mites, would it make sense that a mite count for them would be higher than for non-survivor bees?


Just to add another angle to the issue of bee grooming;
Neonicotinoids interfere with grooming behaviour in honey bees


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## WI-beek

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

"Since survivor bees are supposed to be better at cleaning themselves of mites, would it make sense that a mite count for them would be higher than for non-survivor bees"

Only if you have two colonies with the same mite infestation, then yes, a more aggressive grooming colony would have a higher mite count.

Whalers, dont that this the wrong way ok because this statement is not directed to you. Any experience beek with a few years experience knows and will expect a higher mite load in a colony stared from a nucleus colony than a package! In fact I would expect exactly what you are reporting. Why? Because the nucleus colony had brood and therefore it easily had 3 times the mite load from the moment you installed it into a hive. The package only had varroa that hitched a ride on the bees, wile the Nucleus had hitch hikers, and a generation of reproducing varroa mites.

If you want to understand and compare mite loads accurately between two colonies then you need to take a capping scratcher and pull drone brood to see how many varroa per Drone pupa you find. Otherwise the only thing you are doing adequately with a sticky board or mite drop is forming wild theory about survivor bees versus normal bees.


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## sqkcrk

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

Or you could say that mite drops only tell you how many dead mites there are, not how many live mites there might be. ot having much experience w/ sticky boards, recently, I tend to prefer ether rolls as an indicator of mite counts in a hive.

My sticky board experience is 25 years old when we used sticky boards to see how much mite kill occured in the first 24 hours after the application of Apistan Strips. Maybe we should have had sticky boards in the same hives the previous 24 hours to be able to tell natural mite drop, but we didn't.

What was amazng to me was the amount of mite kill which occured in the first hour, from the time we installed the first sticky board and strip in the first colony, finished applying strips to the rest of the yd and then checked the first stickyboard for our own curiosity. Amzing amount of kill.

In any one mite control application, most of the kill occurs in the first 24 hours or so.


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## wadehump

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

I like some of the post about survivor bees. My bees are JUST BEES they live OR DIE on there own I treat them just like they were treated when i got them WITH NOTHING . If i have a hive that makes it through winter and is slow to build up the next summer then the following year i may requeen with a queen raised from 1 of my better producing hives or they swarm and requeen themselves. Idont keep bees to harvest huge amounts of honey I keep bees for relaxation and enjoyment the honey i harvest and sale and the cut outs that i do and charge for goes right back into the bees for equipment for more swarms and cut outs SURE it is work but it is also very relaxing and a joy to work bees and see the fruits of there labor


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## sqkcrk

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

And you don't feel any obligation to your livestock?


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## wadehump

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

What obligation they are insects if i hadnt cut them out or caught them as a swarm they would have been mother nature and evolutions to take care of.


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## sqkcrk

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

True, though you took them on as yours, not Mother Natures. I see no difference between honeybees and other livestock. As a beekeeper, any bees I have in my boxes I feel obligation to tend to, care for, do my best to see they survive and thrive. Not that I am always successful.

You mentioned enjoying seeing the fruits of their labor which you also mentioned benfiting from. Just seems like maybe a one way street.

I'm sure these comments of mine may seem judgemental. I don't mean for them to appear so. I do not look down on you your way of doin things. I don't know you well enough to critisize you as a person or as a beekeeper. As far as I know you are a good beekeeper. PLease don't take me the wrong way. I tend to ask questions. And I am sure there is more that you and I do in similar fashion than not.

Be well.


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## Keth Comollo

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

Survivor bees? Not exactly sure how you are defining it but around here anything that lives through winter is a survivor bee.


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## sqkcrk

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

Seems like a good def to me.


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## wadehump

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

I understand where you are coming from and i hate to type so a lot of my posts may not come to the screen as i meant them to be . All i mean is let the bees bee bees. Yes i feed sugar water to weak hives and feed them honey that i have harvested from other hives. But i do not use ANY CHEMICALS AT ALL .dont spray the lawn for weeds or use bug dust in the garden unless the green beans need a shot early in the year.


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## julysun

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

"Since survivor bees are supposed to be better at cleaning themselves of mites, would it make sense that a mite count for them would be higher than for non-survivor bees?" Could you reference a study or two on this? I would feel better about it if you would , or some other Beek would post those studies. If convinced I will post haste look to get survivor bees. But, to buttress your statement/question, I do have BWeaver bees and HoneyBeeGenitics bees, all treatment free. Does that count as survivor bees?

This whole topic is very important to me as I want healthy bees that are as treatment free as makes good sense. I would feel better about bees that swarm away from me if they had been adapted to treatment free life.

It is July and the pollen (and nectar?) is rolling in, Bee Happy! :applause:


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## Keth Comollo

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*



julysun said:


> I do have BWeaver bees and HoneyBeeGenitics bees, all treatment free. Does that count as survivor bees?


Have they lived through a winter yet? If so I would call them survivor bees.


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## Solomon Parker

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*



Keth Comollo said:


> If so I would call them survivor bees.


In the parlance of the Treatment-Free Beekeeping Forum, the term 'survivor bees' naturally refers to bees that survive without the use of treatments to keep them alive.


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## Keth Comollo

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*



Solomon Parker said:


> In the parlance of the Treatment-Free Beekeeping Forum, the term 'survivor bees' naturally refers to bees that survive without the use of treatments to keep them alive.


Agreed. But anybody can keep bees from any source alive for a summer without treatments. If they make it through the winter then you can call them survivors.


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## cerezha

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*



Roland said:


> ...And I don't, which is why I asked for a drone brood report. I do not care how many mites are dying, I care how many mites are being born.
> SO naturally you will have mites? Or are natural mites better? Crazy Roland


Hi Roland
In order to fulfill your request and get truthful data, we need to count at least 100 drones (statistics, you know...). I am reluctant to do so... My philosophy is that bees do have mites, parasites... my cat has flees... it is not nice but as long as it is not a pandemic, most animals could "co-exist" with "visitors"... some, better than others (we called them "survivors"). Mite's counting in most cases are non-scientific and I just do not believe in this. As I explained above, I use sticky board as an indicator for tendency - is count stable? When you do counts regularly it gives you an idea what is going on in the hive. My methods are different from commercial beekeeping - I could afford to observe my bees closely. Sergey


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## sqkcrk

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

Sorry, didn't notice what Forum this Thread is in until now.


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## Michael Palmer

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*



Keth Comollo said:


> Agreed. But anybody can keep bees from any source alive for a summer without treatments. If they make it through the winter then you can call them survivors.


But being alive in the spring means nothing to me. The colony has to be strong enough to be productive. Non-productive colonies might just as well be dead...there's no management costs involved in their up-keep.


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## Barry

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

I understand what your point is Michael, but surely "survivor" it has to mean more than "production" as well. I don't think Roland would consider his bees to be worthless simply because they shut down production due to the heat and lack of rain. We get into real subjective territory when we try to define "survivor" it appears.


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## wadehump

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*



Keth Comollo said:


> Agreed. But anybody can keep bees from any source alive for a summer without treatments. If they make it through the winter then you can call them survivors.


WRONG All of my bees are [treatment] free no drugs of any kind nothing . now i do give a nuc sugar water to help buildup in a dearth in late summer. :thumbsup:


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## Solomon Parker

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*



Keth Comollo said:


> But anybody can keep bees from any source alive for a summer without treatments. If they make it through the winter then you can call them survivors.


I see what you're saying. I would say that's generally implied, but I don't have access to everyone's practices. In my case, it's not just an experiment. I have kept all my bees this way for nine years. I've never gone into winter with this many before, and nearly triple what I overwintered last year. With the sheer volume of increase, there is the opportunity to lose a few more, but my long term plan is to have a sustainable population that stays around 20, so I can absorb a loss of eight before contingencies are exhausted.



Michael Palmer said:


> But being alive in the spring means nothing to me. ... Non-productive colonies might just as well be dead.


To you, yes. In my case, a number of my productive colonies are descended from non productive colonies, or colonies that were non-productive for a couple years or so. As the process marches along, the pressures of surviving with the addition of selective breeding lead to more productive colonies. You have had your bees for decades, breeding and refining, relying on them as your employment. Most of the rest of us have not yet had that time to do the same. I'm getting there though. Barring my untimely death, I have time.


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## Keth Comollo

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

I think there is part of the issue that is hard to define. Constantly making splits to nucs, breaking brood cycles etc. can supress the mite population quite a bit.

I would love to see a really strong full sized production colony with its huge broodnest (mite factory) make it three years. My strongest colonies this year are showing suprisingly few mites compared to last year at this time but, since they have big broodnests, I don't expect that to last sadly.

I respect anybody trying to raise bees without any treatments and it can only accelerate the evolution of the bees to one day deal with mites and the viruses they carry. I have been granted permission to use some land that is very remote and have toyed with the idea of putting a few hives there and running it strictly treatment free as a fun experiment. Just have to catch up on woodenware for next year.


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## julysun

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

This article and others is a roadmap for me, but!, I have three hives and am a pure hobby beekeeper. I am a reader, this forum, books and articles about bees among other things. Steve Taber is my favorite author on bees, one of my hives is filled with HoneyBeeGenetics bees, his old business. I can afford to fool around with this issue whereas folk making a living at it must follow a different drummer.
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/choosing-your-troops-breeding-mite-fighting-bees/

Bee Well! :lookout:


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## Keefis

*Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts*

It is hard to get a simple answer to a complicated situation. So many different situations, locations, environment that contribute to the end result of your hives and their health and vigor. Most of the time we are focused one one issue and don't see the big picture (and the other factors) that someone else does. 
Like some said more mites on the board means more dead or groomed mites not on the bees. But at what ratio? We always want a hard number.
I have noticed that my italians literally wipe their feet at the entrance. I see them cleaning each other often too. 
Chemical treatments for me would be a total last resort only after all other remedies were attempted. I would rather save the bees more than my hippie principles.


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## whalers

julysun - excellant article. There is a lot to absorb there but certainly good info. as you will note below, I may be looking at acquiring one of Glenn's queens next year.

To the rest of you following this discussion - someone suggested I needed to do a mite count on the drone larvae. Well, I've just returned from the beeyard. I uncapped drone brood and had a look. Bingo, lots of mites, tons of mites. So now I'm challenged to stick to my guns. I swore I would not treat the two nucs of survivor bees I purchased. Its going to be a hard thing to standby and watch, but I am committed to that. It's interesting to note the other survivor nuc I bot has very few mites. I hope it survives. I would like to learn how to do a split or even raise some queens from it if it makes its to next spring. Ourside of the mite count, both hives look healthy. Good brood patterns, nice cresent shape of honey around them and lots of pollen stored. Considering I only acquired them in June, there is actually a lot of honey stored in the second super of each hive so both appear healthy - BUT the one hive has a ton of mites. Could be a sad thing to watch but I'm not going to treat. It's just not the way to go. I'm beginning to think I might requeen my other two hives from non-survivor stock, with queens from Glenns Apiaries noted in the article by julysun.


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## wadehump

Stick to your guns dont treat you will have losses but next spring catch swarms and do splits. If you are going to requeen use local queens not something shipped from far away locations that you now nothing about.


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## Rick 1456

Been busy so I'm just "weighing in". There seems to be a bit of certainty/assumption, the survivor bees are that, because they clean themselves. Maybe I just stuck on that. There are IMHO, so many ways the bees could be "pressured" into dealing with mites left to their own devices. Bite them, knock them off, 5th instar larvae scent changed so mite can not recognize them. (thought you'd like that one pupation time change, larvae spins cocoon with mite outside. On and on. The ones that apparently are dealing with the mites, continuously, and successfully, not by swarming, must be dealing with them on more than one level with more than one trait involved . MO . Reason, as I understand things, most traits, like grooming, seem to get lost after three generations or so. So, where is, or what are the back up, trait/traits? True, "survivor" bees, IMHO, have run the gauntlet, more than once. If you got that, then,,,,,,,,,,,,I think you might have something. I'm still looking and hoping 2 cents


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## Solomon Parker

I always like to point out that feral bees have broadly varying expressions of the VSH trait. No single trait is what does it. Selecting for a single trait unnecessarily shallows the pool. Leave the bees to figure it out.


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## whalers

I will stick to my guns and let the bees work it out. Hopefully they have the traits needed to deal with things. And to wadehump, I don't have much choice but to use queens from outside the area, there simply are none within 250 to 300 miles. I'm hoping by next yeat to take my limited experience and work up to doing a split.


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## wadehump

Oregon



OLD SOL APIARIES
17101 Ford Rd.
Rogue River, OR 97537
Ph: 541-582-2337
email: [email protected]

RUHL BEE SUPPLY
17845 SE 82nd Drive
Gladstone, OR. 97027
phone: 503-657-5399
- Italian and New World Carniolan

SWEET BEE HONEY CO.
P.O. Box 558
Milton-Freewater, OR. 97862
phone/field: (360) 907-0842
fax: (360) 883-2679
email: [email protected]


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## whalers

wadehump - Thank you for the info. Old Sol is where the survivor stock I have is from. We will see how they do.
I have purchased bees from Ruhl Bee a few years ago but did not know they sold survivor bees. Appreciate the heads up.
Sweet Bee Honey is a new one to me, but I know that country well and it is certainly more similiar to the environment here than the other places. Again, we will see how the Old Sol bees do, but its good to know there are other resources nearby. Thank you.


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## Keth Comollo

I wish you luck Whalers!

Can someone point me to a list of definitions? I am a bit confused on the term "survivor" and how it differs from VSH.


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## Solomon Parker

VSH means varroa sensitive hygiene. It's unfortunately mixed and conflated with SMR (suppressed mite reproduction). It's the ability of bees to chew out defective brood (depending on the testing method, not necessarily cells containing actual varroa as none of the test that I know of use actual mites.) The idea is to keep mite levels below what is generally considered necessary for treatment.

'Survivors', bees able to survive without treatments, have been shown to have broadly varying levels of VSH trait expression. 

Therefore, survivors and VSH are not necessarily the same thing. If somebody wants, I'd be happy to allow them to come test my bees for VSH to determine the exact correlation.


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## whalers

To Keth Comollo my apologies. Beeing fairly new to the beek game I simply lump it all together under the term of "survivor" bees. Sorry for any confusion. I'm still learning "One mistake at a time." Which by the way, I am also in a zone 5.


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## grozzie2

Solomon Parker said:


> VSH means varroa sensitive hygiene. It's unfortunately mixed and conflated with SMR (suppressed mite reproduction). It's the ability of bees to chew out defective brood (depending on the testing method, not necessarily cells containing actual varroa as none of the test that I know of use actual mites.)


Took a day long course on 'selecting queens' this spring, learned a lot about these traits, and, the process of selecting. From what I learned, VSH is a combination of traits. First is the Hygenic part, for which we did hands on testing, using the nitrogen technique. 20 hives lined up, half of them the instructor had done the freeze on the day before. We did the freezing part on 10 of the hives, then we inspected the other 10, to see how well they did on the hygenic test from the freezing a day earlier. The test is to measure how well they removed the dead brood, ie the hygenic trait. The 'Varroa Sensative' part, is a whole different piece. Apparently some bees will sense the presence of varroa in a brood cell, and they will chew open the cap, effectively making that brood cell defective. After the Varroa Sensative part has been accomplished, along comes the Hygenic bees, and they haul that one out to clean up. The goal in breeding for VSH is to end up with a hive, that displays both traits. Nobody ever mentioned a way to test of the VS part of the VSH, the tests were were looking at focussed on the Hygenic trait.

The subject of 'survivors' was lightly touched on, and, really there is only one way to test for it. Take a hive, stick it somewhere, come back in a year, look inside. If the colony is healthy and working, they are survivors. If not, well, maybe they got 'voted off'.


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## Rick 1456

No disrespect, but mo, it is more complicated than leaving them alone for a year. Too many things could happen in an unmonitored situation. The original bees could have died and a swarm of un known origin moved in. I have hives that are in their fourth season w/o treatment. I still would not advertise and sell queens/nucs under the VSH, survivor, or other suggestion like that at this point. Too many variables. I try to monitor for swarms, but I'm not 100 %. That changes things. Just me and my ways. I do advertise treatment free, cause they are. they are healthy, cause they are, low/single mite counts in fall, cause they are, but I do not have a complete explanation as to why at this point. I sold several nucs to a young lady. After explaining all that, she said, "oh, mite resistant." I told her I don't know that. I do not know what the bees are doing, they just are for now. I'll ride the wave for however long it lasts


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## Solomon Parker

That's a good distinction to make, as 'leaving them alone for a year' seems to be the perspective of one critical of the idea.

My bees are handled in the same way that bees generally are by everyone except that I don't bother with treating or testing for mites or other maladies. I still inspect, split, raise queens, combine, adjust entrance size in winter, manipulate for foundation drawing, super, etc. The hives that survive (lately in the majority), that are gentle and produce honey are used for breeding. Mean or unproductive hives are requeened just like everyone else, except that I use my own stock.

It's a great way to keep bees, I just don't bother with diseases. Of course if a hive came down with AFB, I would deal with it appropriately, but destruction is not treatment.


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## CaBees

Yours is the example I am attempting to follow.


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## Solomon Parker

Keep us updated.


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## Rick 1456

Me or you LOL  
I like to do mite counts in the fall. Personal preference. One more element of info for queen preference.


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## CaBees

I've read about the sugar treatment and mite counts and decided it would be interesting to try it once (so may experiment) but it is not something I would want to do often! (I already know I would be too lazy). But I've also read and taken a class from someone who doesn't treat but describes how natural hives go into a period of days of no egg laying during the summer dearth and that this is one form of mite control. Bee keepers may see lots of dead mites on their bottom board and think they are infested; yet this indicates the bees are taking care of the problem. The 10 days or so of interrupted egg laying leaves the mites with no where to lay. I hope I'm explaining this right.... I never see this come up in the forums and wonder what beekeepers here think about it?

Rick do you take these things into consideration when you are timing your fall mite counts? Or do you think it is hogwash?


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## Solomon Parker

Something for you to consider, I won't draw any conclusions, but many of my hives do shrink the broodnest way down in the middle of the summer. Many supersedures take place during this time as well, likely creating brood breaks.

Not all though, I have been doing a round of mid-summer inspections and have found probably a quarter of hives still with large patches, even multiple full frames of capped brood.


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## D Semple

I count mites and have 45 or so hives of what were feral bees that I've caught as swarms or removed from structures or trees. 

My observations are that our local feral population here is thriving mostly because of long brood breaks. They swarm in the spring and/or they shut down brood rearing hard in mid to late summer during our summer dearth. Like Sols I've observed a lot of queen supersedure during this time. 

New Spring queens are an exception and don't take a summer brood break, but keep producing right through our dearth. 

Fall mite counts last year showed a drastic drop in mite counts for those hives that did take a long late summer brood break. Hives that kept rearing brood through the summer the fall mite counts didn't fall. 

Don


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## CaBees

So for the hives that have the long brood breaks in mid to late summer: do they gear up again for the fall flow and store more honey?

The ones that also supercede...does that queen have enough time to grow, get mated, come back, and raise enough bees to store more honey?

Or would you say once a hive takes a mid summers brood break that you are probably not going to see any more stores for winter?

I love these observations; thankyou , thankyou, thankyou!


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## Solomon Parker

In my case, the bees do bring in honey in the fall, whether or not they bring in more or less, I don't know. I don't generally harvest in the fall because I would rather not feed. I harvest in June and leave the rest for the bees for summer (they will sometimes use all remaining honey in summer) and winter.

The only problem with requeening I have found is that sometimes it fails and I get a deadout. Happens to one or two hives per summer. Other than that, things seem to go fine. My dearth is often months long, June to September even. It gives the new queen plenty of time to get her affairs in order.

They definitely do bring in more stores for winter. The honey is typically much darker. Last year, they brought in very little because very little was available so I had to feed. This year is much better, after early June harvest, performers are currently sitting on a full deep of honey or better. In fall, I'll redistribute as necessary. Also trying to overwinter some nucs. They haven't absconded yet, but they're generally sitting on one frame or less of honey at this point. They have definitely curtailed brooding at this point. There are three.


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## Rick 1456

Ca bees
I do not think mite counts for those that are treatment free are hogwash. By the same token, I understand why those may choose to not do them.It is a personal preference. For me, it is just good info. The info is used in queen propagation selection, but only as a "deciding "factor. What I mean is, if I can't decide on other things, nothing stands out all being equal, I'll use that. It is just my HO that if you keep your bees healthy, no chemical distractions, your bees are of a quality, locale origin/assimilation, they have a chance of the ability to "deal" with mites or rise to that ability. IMHO, distractions of the chemical nature, are a road block to that end. (that includes sugar) Yes, hives will pass, that, IMHO, is a good thing. It is a hard line to draw in the sand. It boils down to keeping healthy bees, that at least have a chance, or propping them up because the measure or success is survival at any chemical cost. The bees suffer to that end.


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## CaBees

Thanks again to everyone for their experiences! Rick do you do a mite count using the sugar method? Have you found any correlations between mite count and that hive surviving the winter? Do you start your queen raising this fall or the following spring? What other factors help you decide if it is a good queen or not; such as brood pattern, laying well or things of that sort?

S.Parker, do you take all of the honey in June except what is around the brood nest or do you leave them some like the uncapped honey? It seems your bees have to make a surplus for your harvest in a very short amount of time! Do you just risk that they won't have enough for winter? Why do you think they supercede during the dearth and before winter? is it so they have a fresh queen in the spring? Also, if bees are going to supercede mid summer then they should not be booting out drones until fall, right? Just wondering since one of my hives are obviously booting them out now!

Thanks again for suffering my questions! I am heading home now so it is safe to assume I won't ask anymore for quite a while and I definately look forward to your answers on these.  It helps me think about hive maintenance and the 'big picture'.


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## Keth Comollo

Solomon,
I believe Grozzies presenter was being a bit facetious with the "leave em alone for one year" comment. If you going to keep bees you do it for honey or pollination or breeding. I don't know anyone that just fills boxes with bees and leaves them alone.

I would guess his presenter was indicating that you don't treat with anything for a year, yet still perform what are customary manipulations that are known to help the bees like mouse guards, windbreaks and top insulation, you would be considered treatment free. If you do this without "treatments" and if they are still alive they are considered "survivors". You harvest your honey, make sure the bees have enough for themselves and let them bee. That is how I look at it too. 

If you feel that things such as mouse guards, top insulation and windbreaks to be treatments then perhaps we disagree but amicably.


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## Rick 1456

Ca
I don't know how to answer it all. Spring for the queen rearing. I pay little attention to brood pattern unless really oddball. I have enough hives to be able to say,"wow", this one is nice". I don't know how to quantify it better. Too many variables. As an example, I have two queens I kept from my spring stuff. All things being equal, one queen is more impressive than the other. Control of brood given resources, build up, just an over all nice queen and hive behavior. Will I select her this spring to propagate ,,,,,dunno yet. I'm dealing with GGGgranddaughters at this point. IMHO, different ball game. Meaning, if I gave you a queen that was not one I would select to propagate, you would still be impressed she was a good queen It takes time and commitment. For me,,,that is what is enjoyable. Others, it is different.


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## Rick 1456

BTW, I take a sample of bees from the brood area. I use an alcohol wash. Just my preference.


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## Solomon Parker

CaBees said:


> S.Parker, do you take all of the honey in June except what is around the brood nest or do you leave them some like the uncapped honey?


I leave them plenty. I use unlimited broodnest, so there will be some brood mixed in with the honey, so I leave those frames. I'll take frames with a little drone brood though, doesn't hurt anything. I usually don't take anything below the third deep and usually leave most of that too.




CaBees said:


> It seems your bees have to make a surplus for your harvest in a very short amount of time!


We're quite a bit warmer than there in the Bay Area. Winter is shorter, summer is hotter. In warmer areas, flows tend to be early and late with nothing in the middle.




CaBees said:


> Do you just risk that they won't have enough for winter?


I try not to. I try to leave them plenty with the goal of not needing to feed. I actually harvested a few weeks earlier than usual this year, so going back, I find more capped frames than usual for this time of the year for some hives.




CaBees said:


> Why do you think they supercede during the dearth and before winter? is it so they have a fresh queen in the spring? Also, if bees are going to supercede mid summer then they should not be booting out drones until fall, right?


I think it's a varietal thing. It's part of what they do. Maybe it's a trait expressed more among treatment-free bees. I don't really know, but it's what they do.




Keth Comollo said:


> Solomon, I believe Grozzies presenter was being a bit facetious with the "leave em alone for one year" comment. If you going to keep bees you do it for honey or pollination or breeding. I don't know anyone that just fills boxes with bees and leaves them alone.


I know. But I'm not facetious about keeping bees treatment free. I'm pretty serious about it. When I started, I went for broke, 20 packages. Now I've made it up to 28. It's been a pretty amazing ride this year. Glad to have a good fruitful conversation around here again.


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## whalers

Solomon I love your feedback. As a third year Beek I'm learning alot here reading all the comments. Next spring I'm going to have to learn more about splits and requeening. I'm getting more interested in all the aspects of keeping bees and just need more experience. Lots to learn. I have four hives, two "survivors", two not. Considering requeening the "Not" hives next season although they are both looking really good right now. They are "Carnies" I got in packages this spring. So little time, so much to learn.


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## Keth Comollo

Solomon Parker said:


> I know. But I'm not facetious about keeping bees treatment free.


Am I to understand that you dont put mouse guards, top insulation or provide windbreaks for your hives? Nothing?


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## CaBees

Thank you so much, all of you. I have one more question as a light bulb went off. 
Soloman said:


> I leave them plenty. I use unlimited broodnest, so there will be some brood mixed in with the honey, so I leave those frames. I'll take frames with a little drone brood though, doesn't hurt anything. I usually don't take anything below the third deep and usually leave most of that too.


3 deeps... is that something to build up to before thinking about taking surplus honey? That is the same as 6 mediums I believe. It makes sense if one wants a strong hive starting out in the spring they have plenty of room, cone and some stores to take off running. 

Whalers: one of the guys who gave the bee seminar here (Serge L?) told a story of starting with treatment and losing up to 80% one year. He wasn't enjoying his bees. He finally stopped all treatment and over years is running about 100 hives. He culls the weak ones in fall. Hand in hand with no chemicals is giving the room to move up and down, expand and contract as they see fit. He even studied a hive in an oak tree over 18 months taking thermal images and showed us what they do month to month and times of dearth and no brood laying.

And Keith: I do know people who keep bees for just having bees! There is a group here that do just that and teach how to split those surviving hives. One can buy a split for $75 and the following year if they do not treat it and it does well enough to split can split it to another member for $75 and the class does the splits. It was great! Of course this is the Left Coast so we all do things a little differently here. 

And Rick: thank you, I completely understand and will check out your youtube tomorrow. Time to hit the sack and call it a day. CaBees (Kimberly)


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## Solomon Parker

whalers said:


> Considering requeening the "Not" hives next season although they are both looking really good right now.


If they are doing fine, why not give them the chance to survive without treatments? You may just be surprised. And if it doesn't turn out, requeen before they dwindle too far.




Keth Comollo said:


> Am I to understand that you dont put mouse guards, top insulation or provide windbreaks for your hives? Nothing?


No windbreaks, no mouseguards, no top insulation. I do reduce entrances. It comes from the concept that bees do not heat the hive. They only heat the cluster. Relatively speaking, the hive will be nearly as cold inside as outside if the cluster's extents do not reach the wall.




CaBees said:


> 3 deeps... is that something to build up to before thinking about taking surplus honey? That is the same as 6 mediums I believe. It makes sense if one wants a strong hive starting out in the spring they have plenty of room, cone and some stores to take off running.


Yes, I find that a good store of pollen is the best thing, it's the best stimulus, better than feeding. 3 deeps is a little less than 5 mediums. If I were using mediums, I would probably use 4 as I don't think I quite need the my minimum in 3 deeps. A well stocked hive will still have plenty of honey in the spring, so they could stand to have a little less. Better safe though.


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## Solomon Parker

whalers said:


> Considering requeening the "Not" hives next season although they are both looking really good right now.


If they are doing fine, why not give them the chance to survive without treatments? You may just be surprised. And if it doesn't turn out, requeen before they dwindle too far.




Keth Comollo said:


> Am I to understand that you dont put mouse guards, top insulation or provide windbreaks for your hives? Nothing?


No windbreaks, no mouseguards, no top insulation. I do reduce entrances. It comes from the concept that bees do not heat the hive. They only heat the cluster. Relatively speaking, the hive will be nearly as cold inside as outside if the cluster's extents do not reach the wall.




CaBees said:


> 3 deeps... is that something to build up to before thinking about taking surplus honey? That is the same as 6 mediums I believe. It makes sense if one wants a strong hive starting out in the spring they have plenty of room, cone and some stores to take off running.


Yes, I find that a good store of pollen is the best thing, it's the best stimulus, better than feeding. 3 deeps is a little less than 5 mediums. If I were using mediums, I would probably use 4 as I don't think I quite need the my minimum in 3 deeps. A well stocked hive will still have plenty of honey in the spring, so they could stand to have a little less. Better safe though.


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## CaBees

Thank you again for your answers...so much information in this thread. Bumping up on purpose.


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## Rick 1456

I've shared this "story" a few times on this forum but it changed much about me and my beekeeping. I picked a swarm last spring from an unknown source. In other words, do not know where it came from, someones, hive, or a "tree". Hived them in a deep with drawn foundation. Now, I had already drawn my line in the sand regarding no chems, or purposeful treatments/manipulations if you will, for mites. This hive did great till mid August. I had DWV bees from this hive every day! Till that time, I really did not care much about mite counts. I decided I would check this one. I quite counting at forty. (three hundred bee sample from the brood area) I agonized over what to because we had a terrible flow last year, and I was having to feed a number of hives. One less hive was a savings. I almost bagged them, but decided to let nature take its' course. They actually had good stores that I wanted to give to another hive. I reduced the entrance so as they weakened, they at least had a chance to defend themselves and also, me catch it before they were robbed out and all those mites spread into my other hives. Risky business We had a mild winter so I was able to peek in on them. The cluster diminished to maybe three frames or so. When the weather was nice, the flew like the other hives, just less bees. I really believed they would freeze, not starve. Come early spring, they started bringing pollen in! Humm,,,,I finally got a chance to get into them and there was the queen, same one cause I mark mine, and brood. I was astonished. Make the long story short,,,,, they superceded that queen, but before they did, they exploded and caught up to the other hives. (maybe a mechanism of the bees, two queens at one time? something to consider IMO) Then, I'm pretty sure they swarmed. My bad Now, Three deeps, plenty of stores. I could harvest some but won't. One of my calmest hives, pleasure to do inspections on. To think, I almost bagged them. So, when you read, "you don't know what they can do till you let them, it is true. Doesn't mean it will work on all bees all the time. They have to be healthy, and of good stock, at least. 
There's my story, why I mark my queens, and do mite counts. Kirk Webster has done writings on "Collapse and Recovery" Do a search it will come up. Another area of interest for me, is, "Epigenetics" Another search will bring up explanations of what it is and how it works. I don't think it is too complicated. JMO This year, I have made a move to go foundationless. Natural cell, what ever the bees make. Just me thinking out loud, but if I expect the bees, to find their way through this, they need to be on their battle ground so changes/responses can happen naturally as possible. Nothing foreign to muck up the works. JMO and thinkin out loud


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## CaBees

Thank you for that and I will look up "epigenetics" and "collapse and recovery" as soon as I have time (swamped at work today). What is "DMV bees" ... I'm guessing deaths?

I would guess by them going down drastically in numbers the mites had no where to lay and then the cold outside the cluster depleted the mite population?

I am surprised you would consider giving their stores to another hive....wouldn't that spread the mites or would you have frozen it first?

I have a hive from old equipment now that I've segregated from my other hives and am interested in this: the brood frames are on standard plastic frames.... I've opened up the brood chamber and put in foundationless. I am going to try and measure the cone cells once they draw them out. Like your hive I know nothing about them except I think they are a swarm but they could also have been the original hive the previous owner thought was dead. He did treat for mites; harvested all the honey and was sure those hives boxes were empty. When I picked up the old hives they were spread out over two deeps with a queen excluder between them. So who knows where they came from...or how long they had been sitting at this vacant house with no one looking....

My other hive and one I helped a friend with were all weak swarms where we put brood frames in and they raised a queen. Then I have one which combined two weak swarms/ only one swarm had a queen...the other was failing. It is amazing how they've made a comeback. So I agree with you; if we can find the patience to let nature do its thing, it may very well surprise us!


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## Solomon Parker

We did a thread on epigenetics here on TFB a few months back, see if you can find it.


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## Rick 1456

Sorry a bees,,,LOL,,,DMV is supposed to be DWV Doh! Deformed wing virus.
I would guess by them going down drastically in numbers the mites had no where to lay and then the cold outside the cluster depleted the mite population?
I would not think so, but I honestly am not sure. Mites have survival traits too. When brood drops/stops,, they attach themselves to bees till brood starts up again.(as I understand it) I wish I new what happened. 
Yes, I would have put the honey through a freeze spell.

Swarms are the best things to work with and the most fun for me. They are at there best, cause nature is at odds with them. They must do everything right to survive, that includes change. ( MO)


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## whalers

To wadehump - on the last page when you listed bee suppliers in oregon, were you saying each of those places has "Survivor" bees?

I have purchased bees from Ruhl bee before - lost them all to mites. Would be willing to try again with Ruhl if they had survivor type bees.


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## wadehump

Not a list of survivor bees just a list of bee supplers close to you. I think to get bees that will live year to year and do well and i know that some will disagree you need to go foundationless with your bees. I used to place wax foundation in all of my hives and they died so i went foundationless 5 years ago with 2 hives. 2 winters ago i had 7 hives and lost 1 weak hive that was low on stores going into winter. Last winter i went in with 16 and came out with 15 i am now up to 28. Just my 2 cents i do not treat i do not use swarm control methods at all i let the bees bee bees. My bees have mites they all do i get hives that get dwv but they outlast the mites and live from season to season.


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## cerezha

wadehump said:


> ... live from season to season.


 This is my dream! I wish they will do. Sergey


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## Roland

Sergey. I repeat:

...And I don't, which is why I asked for a drone brood report. I do not care how many mites are dying, I care how many mites are being born.

Note the drone BROOD report, how many mites are in the capped drone BROOD.

I believe it was Whaler that found alot in the drone brood, but not dropping? Please, humor me.

Whaler - try striking the drone brood every 14 days, record your findings. 

CRazy ROland


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## cerezha

Roland said:


> Sergey. I repeat:
> ...And I don't, which is why I asked for a drone brood report. I do not care how many mites are dying, I care how many mites are being born.


 Roland
I do understand your point, but your approach just would not work for my situation. I have literally feral (survivor) bees, they are foundationless. It means that they are normal size - much smaller than drones. The initial problem with mites arise when large cell foundation were used - worker bees become bigger and mites attacked them as drones. In nature, mites parasite mostly drones and it does not affect seriously the worker population. In my case, if mite's count on drones would be high - it means nothing, since, mites "prefer" drones and do not attack workers. It is known phenomena and "natural" way of mite control (natural cells). Also, in my case, I was using screen with smaller mesh (enough for mites). I think,it is beneficial to bees - my observation is that they regulate temperature by gathering on the screen (whole screen covered with bees), so it is easy to damp mites to the sticky board. I do not think that all mites were dead before touching sticky board. My feeling (no proof) is that mites come to the sticky board alive as a result of bees cleaning herself (and each-other) on the screen - I saw this all the time. Sergey


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## sqkcrk

Maybe someone should be scratching worker brood to see if this is true or not.


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## wadehump

sqkcrk said:


> Maybe someone should be scratching worker brood to see if this is true or not.


Have checked worker brood and drone brood when doing cutouts. Very little if any mites in worker brood , drone brood has mites although not loaded up with a lot of mites.


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## sqkcrk

I wouldn't think that cut out data would corrolate to what is found in managed colonies. Conditions, ie proximity, are different.


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## BEES4U

FYI:
The VSH trait/traits have been incorporated into the gene pool from good genetics and that needs to be factored into the survivor bees theory.


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## wadehump

sqkcrk said:


> I wouldn't think that cut out data would corrolate to what is found in managed colonies. Conditions, ie proximity, are different.


I know that cut out data would be a little bit flawed but that is what my bees are swarms and cutouts. That is all i have to go by even in my hives i dont see alot of mites i know they are there but i just dont have a huge problem with mites. Proximity would bee the same as all of my bees have came from a 3 county area with the same weather conditions and floral make up .


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## Solomon Parker

BEES4U said:


> ...that needs to be factored into the survivor bees theory.


Please explain.


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## wadehump

BEES4U said:


> FYI:
> The VSH trait/traits have been incorporated into the gene pool from good genetics and that needs to be factored into the survivor bees theory.


In the state of ohio there are 88 counties. In my home county there are only 18 registered aparies in the county which ranks us as the 4th lowest. The 2nd and 3rd counties border my home county the lowest county is 150 + to the north of me. I dont see a huge flood of VSH traits being brought into my area what i do see is bees that have adapted to the mites over the last 20 years plus since the mites showed up.


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## cerezha

sqkcrk said:


> I wouldn't think that cut out data would corrolate to what is found in managed colonies. Conditions, ie proximity, are different.


It perfectly correlates with my theory since I was talking about survival/semi-feral bees. I do not think, that my theory is suitable to commercial beekeeping. Also, it is not exactly my theory - it is a summary of my reading about bees. Sergey


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## sqkcrk

wadehump said:


> I know that cut out data would be a little bit flawed but that is what my bees are swarms and cutouts. That is all i have to go by even in my hives i dont see alot of mites i know they are there but i just dont have a huge problem with mites. Proximity would bee the same as all of my bees have came from a 3 county area with the same weather conditions and floral make up .


How many hives do you have in one yd from swarms and cut outs?
Have you had them for a while?
Do you do mite checks? What method?

My point, inadequately expressed, was that what one finds in a cutout or swarm would be different from what I would expect to find in managed colonies because generally speaking bees in walls swarm more often, it is thought, and there aren't as many in any given space as there are in almost any given managed apiary. Whereas feral colonies are sometimes found relatively close to each other, finding 5 or ten of them as close to each other as the common backyard beekeeper does is rare, I believe.

When we keep hives as close together as we do, it is little trouble for mites to travel from hive to hive. That is what I was getting at.

Sergey, that's an interesting idea about larger worker cells being attractive to female varroa mites. What I had thought I had heard was that some genetic change had occured in the varroa. It would be interesting to know the differences in cell size betwween Apis mellifera and Apis dorsata, the original host of Varroa. Does anyone know where that data can be found?


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## wadehump

sqkcrk said:


> How many hives do you have in one yd from swarms and cut outs?
> Have you had them for a while?
> Do you do mite checks? What method?
> 
> 28 hives total in 2 yards 16 in 1 and 12 in the other. all are swarms and cutouts 16 of them are 2 years old 3 are 4 years old the others are from this year . no i dont do any mites other than when doing cutoutd and looking at drone brood .


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## sqkcrk

thanks.


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## Luterra

I've also got a hive from an Old Sol nuc this year. It came with only around three frames of bees so took awhile to build up but now has a full two deeps (though no surplus). They do burr comb like no others and attack like crazy if I open the brood nest, which means they get inspected less than my other hives.

They have, as of the latest count, a daily mite drop of 58. 

Now I realize this is the treatment-free forum, so I kind of know what answers to expect, but I'm debating whether to give them a dose of Apiguard. I started out last year wanting to be treatment free but lost both of my two hives. Mites were not definitely the cause but they were a contributing factor. This year I want to be successful to prove to myself that I can keep bees, even if that means treating. So, on the one hand it would suck to lose my $130 "survivor" bees over winter. On the other hand those expensive bees are pretty worthless if I have to treat to keep them alive.

Any other experiences with Old Sol bees? Do they overwinter well in spite of high mite counts?

Mark


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## Solomon Parker

I welcome you to debate Apiguard to your ultimate satisfaction, in some other forum.


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## whalers

I also purchased Survivor nucs from Old Sol this year. Like you, they did not build up fast and produced no extra honey and also like you they produce tons of burr comb and even more propolis. Unlike you, mine are quite tame and I have little problem with them. Our mite counts are about the same, around 60 per day, but they seem healthy enough. I am going to requeen one of them with a hygenic Italian queen (from Olivarez bees) and just ordered the queen today. I'm hoping for less propolis production and more honey. I think the Old Sol bees will winter alright as they have the stores necessary, but they are carrying a pretty large mite load right now so I guess we will see. One way or the other I will not be treating. I made that decision when I ordered up the Old Sol nucs and I'm not going back on it. 



Luterra said:


> I've also got a hive from an Old Sol nuc this year. It came with only around three frames of bees so took awhile to build up but now has a full two deeps (though no surplus). They do burr comb like no others and attack like crazy if I open the brood nest, which means they get inspected less than my other hives.
> 
> They have, as of the latest count, a daily mite drop of 58.
> 
> Now I realize this is the treatment-free forum, so I kind of know what answers to expect, but I'm debating whether to give them a dose of Apiguard. I started out last year wanting to be treatment free but lost both of my two hives. Mites were not definitely the cause but they were a contributing factor. This year I want to be successful to prove to myself that I can keep bees, even if that means treating. So, on the one hand it would suck to lose my $130 "survivor" bees over winter. On the other hand those expensive bees are pretty worthless if I have to treat to keep them alive.
> 
> Any other experiences with Old Sol bees? Do they overwinter well in spite of high mite counts?
> 
> Mark


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## Luterra

Thanks for the response. They were a bit more mild-mannered when I opened the hive yesterday - or at least one of my other hives is now significantly meaner than they are. I haven't seen the excessive propolis. They never expanded their brood nest beyond the bottom box but did fill the second chock full of honey.

It appears I broke a rule by mentioning the name of a treatment here. Kind of like talking about bacon on a vegetarian forum  

Mark


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## Keth Comollo

Even vegetarians like bacon!!


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## whalers

Our experiences are much the same. I was in one of the hives today and it looks quite healthy, but just like you, bottom box is brood and the box above it is full of honey. Thats pretty much all they did. They look good for the winter, but didnt make any extra honey for me. 



Luterra said:


> Thanks for the response. They were a bit more mild-mannered when I opened the hive yesterday - or at least one of my other hives is now significantly meaner than they are. I haven't seen the excessive propolis. They never expanded their brood nest beyond the bottom box but did fill the second chock full of honey.
> 
> It appears I broke a rule by mentioning the name of a treatment here. Kind of like talking about bacon on a vegetarian forum
> 
> Mark


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## RiodeLobo

Solomon Parker said:


> No windbreaks, no mouseguards, no top insulation. I do reduce entrances. It comes from the concept that bees do not heat the hive. They only heat the cluster. Relatively speaking, the hive will be nearly as cold inside as outside if the cluster's extents do not reach the wall.


So you don't have any issues with condensation?


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## Solomon Parker

No, they seem to be dry as a bone inside in the winter, excepting the occasional leaky lid. I believe it is due to having both upper and lower entrances, a little chimney effect. I don't have anything specific to back that assertion though, just a hypothesis. But no, no issues with condensation.


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## jadell

Keth Comollo said:


> Even vegetarians like bacon!!


I know some "vegetarians" that eat bacon, and I know meat eaters that don't. What a mind f-er to me! How can someone not like bacon? And now back to the bees...


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## RiodeLobo

Solomon Parker said:


> No, they seem to be dry as a bone inside in the winter, excepting the occasional leaky lid. I believe it is due to having both upper and lower entrances, a little chimney effect. I don't have anything specific to back that assertion though, just a hypothesis. But no, no issues with condensation.


I wonder if it is you climate as well. Last winter I used top entrances, insulated tops, windbreaks and reduced entrances. I did not lose any hives in the winter (one lost late fall due to queen failure that I missed), but I did have moisture issues such as vapor frost at all the entrances. With out the insulated tops I am convinced the cover would ice over and drip on the cluster. But I am in a colder climate than you (13 F on average).


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