# need good sugar cake recipe



## beefarmer (May 2, 2010)

Having a terrible time making sugar cakes, tried the no heat method, in oven for 2 days with lite on and felt hard to the touch, popped out and crumbled apart. did a couple di. cook methods, closest is 10 lbs. sugar in 4 cups water, tried at 245 deg. turned out like a fondant, oozed off the paper plate overnight and onto the floor. tried it at 260 deg. poured in round cake pans, and is staying clear, like it does when it doesn't set up hard. remembering from last year it would turn opaque when poured in the pans and made great cakes. didn't keep recipe from last year!!!!!! What am I doing wrong ?


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

I made invert sugar patties and had a nightmare with it. The key is to not use much acid. Acid makes it soft. You're better off puting paper on the top of the hive. putting sugar on, and spraying it with acid. I would mix vinegar, citric acid (or lemon) and vitamin c. It won't be inverted, but you can get it more acidic (like honey), and avoid the hydroxymethylfurfural.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I make mine like Lauri does, except I don't put everything in it. Just the vinegar and even that is a lot less. Just enough to moisten it. Roll it like her and I put it in my oven on the lowest setting, which I think is 170° for like ten minutes and let it completely cool before touching it. Times have varied and another bake has been nessasary at times, but I think the key is to start as dry as possible.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ethod-for-sugar-blocks&highlight=Lauri+miller


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

rookie2531 said:


> I make mine like Lauri does, except I don't put everything in it. Just the vinegar and even that is a lot less.


That's how I mix up my blocks too. 

5# - sugar
6 1/2 oz - Apple Cider Vinegar

That's just enough liquid to end up with the consistency of packing snow. Not too wet and not too dry. I use Silicone muffin molds and pack it in with a spoon. After a few days of air drying it's dry enough to carefully remove from the mold and lay out on trays to dry further. If I had a lot of hives I would probably roll them in trays like Lauri does, but with 10-15 hives the muffin blocks work out great. I'll put 8-10 blocks on each hive inside a feeder rim. And it's easy to fill in empty spaces where the bees have consumed some of the sugar, just drop in another block or two.


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## ggileau (Feb 19, 2013)

I used the recipe from www.bamboohollow.com/fondant-recipe.php. I added pollen sub and pollen as well. The bees were all over it. The pollen makes it a tad less solid but not bad. This year I'll get a better thermometer and a better way to boil it. Maybe the turkey cooker. Either way I will be using the recipe again. Hope this helps.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@Mike G- Those are adorable. My girls would go nuts over them.


@ggileau - You might want to re-think the addition of pollen sub and pollen for the bricks you supply in the cold when the bees can't fly. Pure sugars are best because the pollen sub and pollen, being higher protein, will make them need to go out to poop. If they can't because you are in CT and it's too cold to survive, they may wind up with dysentery which is a really bad thing in winter. Lauri puts pollen sub on the bricks she makes, but she's in the PNW and her bees can fly out pretty regularly, so it's not a problem. But up here in the Northeast where we are (I'm north of Albany, NY) the bees often can't go out for a month or more at a stretch. Bees need high protein when they are larvae, but as they mature they need it less. And adult bees don't need much, if any protein in the winter. They just need enormous amounts of carbs -aka honey (or sugar) - their natural winter food. As winter starts to wind down, and they start to brood again, it's OK to add pollen sub patties. I do that beginning in the third week of March. I do not want to promote any extra-early brood raising while the temps are still very cold - don't want chilled brood. 

Enj.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

enjambres said:


> @Mike G- Those are adorable. My girls would go nuts over them.


My girls go nuts over them too. My 2 girls in the house love the banana muffins, and my 100's of thousands of girls in the bee yards love the sugar.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Like the idea Mike, first I had heard of muffin tins. Going to give that a try. G


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

biggraham610 said:


> ... first I had heard of muffin tins.


Not actually muffin "tins". These are "silicone" muffin molds. After a couple days the blocks can be removed carefully and laid out to finish drying. The silicone mold is great, they pop right out. I've tried them in regular "metal" pans and it's not so easy getting them to release. Have to leave them in for a much longer period of time.

It's my way of being festive, and still getting something accomplished on the beekeeping side. Simple minds are easily amused.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

enjambres said:


> And adult bees don't need much, if any protein in the winter.
> 
> Enj.


My reading and Autumn observation showed that the bees will hold their fat reserve in their bodies through out the winter months.
To maintain their fat reserves the adult bees need to take more proteins in the Autumn build up. Some beekeepers said that these
fat reserves can sustain 2 brood cycles in a healthy hive. Because our bees need to make the fat winter bees as fat as they can be, I
continue to give them patty sub. into the late winter months since we're in a mild winter area. Last year I gave them patty subs. all winter long and continued into the Spring
flow. So there has to be a way to balance the fat bees versus the skinny bees that cannot stand the cold of the winter months. Remember that in cluster mode when they cannot
feed that much they rely on these fats to carry them over the winter.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

If you place the sugar mix in a paper soup bowl or cardboard french fry tray, you can let them air dry for a week or so and they are good to use.

The best product I have found is large cardboard French fry trays. They hold 1 1/2 lbs of sugar block recipe. Found them at a Wholesale Food Store and cost $11 for 100 trays. The Wholesale Food Store sells large quantity items to small restaurants and convenience stores. 

The paper soup bowls hold about a pound of sugar block recipe.


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## BeeMoose (Oct 19, 2013)

I used Lauri's recipe last year and it worked well. I downsized the batch as I didn't need the 25lb batch size for 3 hives. I will make a few more this year as some hives really
ate them up.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> To maintain their fat reserves the adult bees need to take more proteins in the Autumn build up. 

That is not what I read at this Randy Oliver page ...
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-1/


Here is part of that page:


> In summary, protein is precious to the honeybee colony, and its sole natural source is a mixture of plant pollens. Bees store reserves of protein in the bodies of house bees in the form of vitellogenin, and conserve those reserves zealously,[HIGHLIGHT] by recovering them before house bees graduate to become field bees.[/HIGHLIGHT] Field bees thus give up the life-extending and immunicological benefits of vitellogenin. Protein is transferred within the colony from bee to bee by the sharing of vitellogenin produced by nurse bees. Vitellogenin levels affect the foraging behavior of field bees. Nurse bees, queens, and winter bees are long-lived and more stress and disease resistant due to their high vitellogenin titers. *Successful wintering is dependent upon the last rounds of bees emerging in the late summer/fall having adequate pollen available in the broodnest.
> 
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-1/
> *


The highlighted part essentially says that mature bees (foragers) give up/give back their protein to the colony. Its the _young _bees that need the protein.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@RAder:

That's exactly what I understand, too. And it's why in the Northeast where the brooding is suspended and the bees can't fly out to poop in winter that feeding pollen and pollen sub can lead to problems.

For *Beepro, * in CA it may not make such a difference, but for *GGileau *in CT it could become a serious issue, endangering survival. 

Everybody seems to agree young bees need good supplies of protein, but as they age older bees do not. And in a colony in the Northeast in winter there are no "younger bees" in the pipeline for a period (nor any feeding of larvae going on). Unless you were dealing with some sort of special circumstance where there was absolutely no stored pollen or bee bread in the hive, feeding an enhanced level of either would be a mistake. I have never had it in one of my colonies but I did once see a deadout where there were massive diarrheal feces all over the bars. Gross and stinky. 

Of course, at the end of winter they have resumed brooding and have need of more pollen/protein, it's a whole other thing. Especially if they have moved to the upper boxes where there may mostly honey stores and less pollen. In my cold area my bees don't seem to go down into the bottom box to retrieve it, so they will pounce on pollen sub patties to feed their young if the patties are set in the feeding rim.

Enj.


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## ggleavitt (Feb 12, 2014)

BeeMoose said:


> I used Lauri's recipe last year and it worked well. I downsized the batch as I didn't need the 25lb batch size for 3 hives. I will make a few more this year as some hives really
> ate them up.


4 lbs sugar, 1/3 cup organic apple cider vinegar, pinch of electrolytes (Lauri posted the brand a long time ago), smaller pinches of citric and ascorbic acid. 
Mix it by hand, press into cookie sheets with baking parchment paper underneath (easier release from the cookie sheet). 
Make cuts for your block size, stick in oven @ lowest setting (mine is around 160 degrees) for a few hours and you're good to go as soon as they cool down. I store them in a dry place between sheets of paper towels to absorb any residual moisture.

See http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290641-My-recipe-method-for-sugar-blocks for more information on the recipe. Second year, my bees work this like there's no tomorrow (to the exclusion of their own honey stores).


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## beefarmer (May 2, 2010)

After you take out of the oven how many weeks before this recipe gets hard ?


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## ggileau (Feb 19, 2013)

enjambres said:


> @Mike G- Those are adorable. My girls would go nuts over them.
> 
> 
> @ggileau - You might want to re-think the addition of pollen sub and pollen for the bricks you supply in the cold when the bees can't fly. Pure sugars are best because the pollen sub and pollen, being higher protein, will make them need to go out to poop. If they can't because you are in CT and it's too cold to survive, they may wind up with dysentery which is a really bad thing in winter. Lauri puts pollen sub on the bricks she makes, but she's in the PNW and her bees can fly out pretty regularly, so it's not a problem. But up here in the Northeast where we are (I'm north of Albany, NY) the bees often can't go out for a month or more at a stretch. Bees need high protein when they are larvae, but as they mature they need it less. And adult bees don't need much, if any protein in the winter. They just need enormous amounts of carbs -aka honey (or sugar) - their natural winter food. As winter starts to wind down, and they start to brood again, it's OK to add pollen sub patties. I do that beginning in the third week of March. I do not want to promote any extra-early brood raising while the temps are still very cold - don't want chilled brood.
> ...


Thank you for the advice! Beekeeping is something I always wanted to do and now I'm in my third season and learning and a long ways to go. At 63 I have a bit of catching up to do. Once again, thank you. It is refreshing to see advice given that doesn't come across as condescending 😂


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I have a small variety "test batch" drying, pretty close to Lauri's recipe ( her recipe is stickied in the FAQ). 

I tried 2.5 lbs sugar & 3 oz of apple cider vinegar, with just a little of the other stuff, making individual test blocks. I have the dehydrator drying 11"x7" brownie pans at 130*F. A couple have crumbled, due to early handling, and incomplete drying. Others are rock hard after a day. The one's with UltraBee dusting are drying the slowest. The ones with just sugar, vinegar & ascorbic acid are turning out the hardest/quickest.

Lauri mentions ( a couple times) that she doesn't use an oven/high heat. Just a dehydrator @ 130*. That (oven heat) seems to be causing problems for some, on occasion, and working well for others at times.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

beefarmer said:


> After you take out of the oven how many weeks before this recipe gets hard ?


I used laurie's as well but just 25pounds sugar and one quart apple cider vinegar. I think the key is the mixing. I used a drywall mud mixer on a drill. put them on cookie sheets an inch thick. pressed with rolling pin. put in my electric house oven for five or so hours at lowest setting which was like 140. second batch I had to take it out after 3 hours cause someone just HAD to make dinner....sheesh....so before bed I got it up to 140 again and put the light on and shut the stove off. came out 12 hours later hard as a rock. I cut mine into 1/3 sheets before baking and only had two break. like I said if you thoroughly mix it and cook to the point where you can't push your finger through it might be better.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

:thumbsup:

I should have mentioned that - mixing with an electric drill & paint paddle in a 2 gallon bucket makes quick work of a batch. Someone (somewhere in Lauri's ~400 reply/20 page FAQ thread) mentioned that drying the bricks in paper lunch bags worked great. I suspect that might speed things up & may try that as well. The metal pans naturally slow the drying process on the bottom & sides. Letting them sit & cool down also helps prevent initial cracking & breakage.

A made a couple bricks with ~1 T UltraBee *in the mix* - they are the slowest drying, followed by the ones with just a dusting. Four of the ones with NO UB (just sugar, vinegar & ascorbic,) are hard & solid ( ready) after 1-2 days. I live in a very dry climate, and we usually have some "flying weather" scattered throughout our winters. There is less concern about feeding protein & the resultant dysentery from the bees being unable to take semi-regular cleansing flights.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

Mike,

What does the "feeder rim" look like?


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

10 lb sugar 1 cup water (4 lb sugar <1/2 cup water)

Optional items (add to water): 
Mineral & Vitamins* (feed store)
Lemon juice, Vit C*, vinegar or apple cider vinegar
Probiotics*

*studies show these are beneficial to bees.
Don't add essential oils as they are bad for bees.

Air dry for 1 to 2 days, heat will break down your vitamins, amino acids and probiotics.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

beefarmer said:


> After you take out of the oven how many weeks before this recipe gets hard ?


I put mine on the warm setting which is 170 deg I think as well. I stick a wooden spoon in the door so it vents. Run it for 20 min then shut it off. The next morning I pull them out of the oven and they are brick hard and pop right out of the bread loaf pans I use.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I try to keep things simple. I mix sugar with water until I get a consistency of wet sand. I put the wet sugar is foil loaf pans. After sitting for a couple of days I flip them out to let the bottom fully dry.

For nucs that only have a 2-inch feeding rim I use and 8X8 foil pan and then take a table knife and cut them in half while wet. This gives a 4X8 sugar cake that fits on top of a five frame nuc easily.

I usually do this when it is cold enough for the furnace to be running so they dry out easily.

Tom


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Sr. Tanya said:


> Mike,What does the "feeder rim" look like?


Not sure if this was directed at me, but here is what I use for a feeder rim. Mostly recycled pallet lumber, 2 1/2" - 3" high. 

I add screen at the top of the rim to keep the bees from flying out and dying in the snow when I lift the cover and do quick checks in the winter. If they need more blocks I'll just lift up one end a few inches and add some more.

Hopefully I've done my job in the Fall, and they won't need too many of these blocks. It's emergency feed only, if they end up in the top box.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

Mike Gillmore said:


> That's how I mix up my blocks too.
> 
> 5# - sugar
> 6 1/2 oz - Apple Cider Vinegar
> ...


I tried this, did it in a cookie sheet, on very low heat, (160-170 degrees F) and its been like that for almost a full day now, but is still liquid. Did I screw up by heating it? If so, can I just let it air dry?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I usually let mine air dry. Should be the consistency of snow when you pack it into the pans. Maybe the oven was too hot.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Mike Gillmore said:


> That's how I mix up my blocks too.
> 
> 5# - sugar
> 6 1/2 oz - Apple Cider Vinegar
> ...


that is way cool. Your bees must be impressed.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

My wife and kids are impressed ... not sure about the bees yet. I'll find out soon enough.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

As will I, got me some of those muffin molds. G


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I think you'll like them. I switched from the larger blocks to these a couple years ago and I like using them a lot better. Easier to make, and much easier to add to the hives too.


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

25lbs sugar 32oz cider vinegar or water if you wish, mix very well and place in shallow cookie sheets. Place in food dehydrator for a couple days. When dries its hard as bricks. If is remains soft there is too much liquid.

I have a gas oven and I couldn't get the temp to stay low enough.


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## pfin3 (Sep 26, 2014)

What would the results be if you put it in front of a dehumidifier?


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

(repeat post, from another thread...)

*I started making some experimental sugar blocks* - with various combinations of mainly sugar & apple cider vinegar, and lesser amounts of ascorbic/citric acid, and a few with UltraBee (UB) pollen supplement. I plan to supplement feed them to some July queen units that may need a few more stores.

*I use Lauri's basic recipe *( see the FAQ thread), and have found that ~1 oz of AC vinegar per 1 pound of dry sugar, mixed in with a paint paddle in a plastic bucket, gives me pretty good ( great) results. So far I've been making 2.5 & 3 lb blocks.

*I found that ANY UltraBee, either as a top dusting or mixed in, causes the drying process to slow* WAY down. I mixed ~1 teaspoon of UB into two blocks, 4 days ago. They are still drying. Protein supplements like UB, in winter feed, are NOT recommended in areas that experience prolonged cold spells that prevent the bees from taking cleansing flights. It may cause dysentery. We usually see multiple flying days, throughout most of the winter, so that isn't much of a concern here.


*I made more sugar/vinegar/acid blocks yesterday afternoon. They are rock hard this morning.* Our very dry climate even let me get away with air drying this latest batch; you may need to use a fan or dehydrator, depending on your relative humidity.

*While Lauri doesn't recommend using the oven ( she dehydrates @ ~130*)*, many folks report good results with low temp oven drying. A few have reportedly cooked up a gooey mess.

Thinner blocks dry much faster, as you might expect. Rolling the wet mix into a baking pan, then* "roughing up" the top surface with a block of wood has given me the fastest drying times.* (Whether air dried, or in the dehydrator).


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## Muzkrat (Apr 13, 2015)

I made up some sugar blocks today for first time. Used a combination of information but basically was Lauri's recipe without the additives. I went with a 4lb mix since most sugar around here is sold in 4 lb bags. Very simple recipe of 4 lbs sugar and 2/3 cup of apple cider vinegar. I mixed it in a bowl about half to start with and added rest as I mixed it by hand. Put it on a cookie sheet and kinda packed it so it was smooth. Put in the oven at 170 (lowest setting) for 2 hrs and turned off the oven and let it sit another hr. Took it out and after it cooled to room temp I popped the pre cut squares out and only had a couple break in half. Very pleased with the turnout. Will let them sit longer next time before removing from the pan. Got anxious this batch to see how they turned out. Nice solid sugar blocks. Thanks to all that posted and especially Lauri.



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