# Is 5 feet the best length for the TBH?



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I have several tbh's built to 4 feet lengths. Most sources will suggest that to be the best size. It certainly works best for common lumber dimensions. But as I near the close of a second season with these hives, I wonder if 5 feet might be the best.

The key with tbh's is to keep space in order to avoid swarming and (if honey is an interest) to maximize honey production. As the season progresses, you have to remove honey if the hive gets full in order to give them room. But often the honey isn't capped yet, or not cured. They've got nectar coming in, but you're pressed to remove comb to make more room, and they might actually be able to put quite a bit more in - but it's hard to tell. Then there's the fact that bees will move nectar around within the hive. Removing comb restricts that ability. 

Then you have the problem of what to do with what you remove. Do you crush and strain, keep it in the freezer and feed it back? And often it's already getting late enough so they are slower to build comb. Then they're trying to deepen comb, and you've got to re-space them. 

This year, the season has been slow. Cold, wet spring. Cool summer. Still chilly a lot. So the four foot hives seems to be more than enough. I haven't taken any honey out of my overwintered hive, and my new colony has another foot to go before it's out of room. However, last year was a great year, and I had a first year colony fill a hive right up and need more room. Others I have read about in the forums have had to take honey out already this year in other parts of the continent.

My Question: Would a 5 foot hive might actually be the most versatile for all regions and the fluctuations in production? At 5 feet, with sides made of standard 1x12 lumber, a tbh would have the volume equivalent of about three full deeps. It seems to me that a hive that size would be much easier to keep from swarming - and to keep space late for honey storage.

I'm wondering if 5 feet and that 10 or so more bars (which might offer 40-60 lbs more storage) might be just the key. It wouldn't eliminate the need to manipulate things - but it might make things simpler. And it would allow the bees to use the comb more effectively if it's left there longer; filling them up more, ripening more and capping later. Wouldn't that reduce some of the issues for a tbh keeper?

What are your thoughts?

Adam


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

I too have considered this as I am in the same situation this year with hives full of only partially capped or uncapped honey. I even have 2 4 footers started from packages this year that are nearly full. One with 5 available bars and the other 7. Last year I was able to harvest a bar or two at a time because they were capping faster. 

I think I'll give a couple 5 footers a try next year.

Mike


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

I think you have to go with what size honey crop your area will normally produce with hive design. In my location we have an average annual honey crop of about 50 lbs per hive although 80 to 100 lbs is not unheard of from some colonies. The TBH's hives that I'm using have an interior length of 44.5" with the hive holding the same amount of comb as three deeps. At some point nearing the end of our honey flow I will stop any further expansion by placing my follower in. My thought is to have the bees use the last of the flow to back fill the existing combs so that the winter nest is consolidated near the entrance with the combs well filled with capped honey beyond where the cluster will winter. Depending on the colony I will leave anywhere from 14 to 16 combs to winter on with any combs of honey beyond that for harvest. My objective is to have the nest back filled well enough so that I do not have to feed any syrup to get then through to next years flow. Timing is important so that the end of the flow lands when the nest is well packed. I have not found this size hive to be too small for my location. 

Harvesting for me has only been necessary once at the end of the season through 5 years so far.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

All of my HTBHs are 42"-48" and they seem to work fine for me. If you're trying to avoid swarming, I think the key is to prevent the colony from becoming honey bound early in the season. This can happen in a 2' hive just as easily as a 5' hive. This year was especially bad for me, as the spring was horrible. The colonies began building comb like mad, the weather turned for a few weeks, and then they ceased comb production, filled up the remaining combs with honey and became honey bound. Despite many being less than half full, I had a LOT of swarms as I was also in the middle of opening our new store and wasn't able to get out to all of my hives to free up some space. 

It could just be my location, but on the colonies that are getting close to full I've never had an issue finding some fully-capped honey combs to harvest. Obviously they aren't at the end of the hive where the newest combs, but take some searching for closer to the brood nest.

I see no issue with 5' hives, other than the additional cost. For those incredibly prolific colonies I can see them being an advantage. Most of my colonies would rarely utilize any of the extra space. 

Best,
Matt


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Five feet seems to be about the maximum length that you can get them to work and you have to work at it a bit to get them to use it... Most of mine are four feet.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

In truth, the 4 foot hive probably can hold pretty well for most years, and in most locations. However, the fact that so many colonies get _close_ to filling them, is where I think they are weak. Once the colonies get close, the beekeeper has to keep a close eye on them. If the beek has to remove honey, they have the problem of having to crush, strain, store and feed back, or crush strain and perhaps do it again if they harvest more later. If honey's not capped, you can't take your harvest for yourself early and make room that way either.

The extra foot in a tbh would just allow you more flexibility.

Look at how many people have tried to super the tbh. I was thinking about that problem and just realized, wait a minute - supering is really counter to the whole design. If you're tempted to super, you'd be better off just building a longer hive with a good follower board, and just sizing down if it's too much.

Delta, what are the other dimensions of your hives? With 44.5" of interior length, you've got to have different bar lengths and hive heights than mine, because I calculate these to be about the equivalent of 2 deeps and a shallow in 10 frame lang terms. That would be a key difference between us. And Matt, what your your other dimensions?

Perhaps we should be basing this discussion on interior volume, rather than just the dimension of hive length.

We might be comparing apples and oranges.

Adam


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> We might be comparing apples and oranges.



Interior dimensions of my hive are 14.5" along the bar 12.5" deep and 7.5" bottom board width. This will allow each comb to have a surface area of up to 131.29 in. A deep frame will hold 136 sq inches of surface area. That is inside area of the frame. Three deeps will hold 4080 sq. in. of comb surface area. My TBH's can hold up to 32 bars at 1 3/8" which will give a possible comb surface area of 4201.28 sq inches. You can see that they are very comparable.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Hi Delta,
What are using for stock to get 12.5" depth? That would mean you've got side boards of 13 - 14" wide (depending on whether they're fastened on top of the bottom board or beside it and the angle of your sides). Are you using plywood? Custom milled lumber?

I like a little bit more height than standard 1x12 offers, so I have plywood sides of 12". But after the construction and angle, I think I only get about 10.5 inches for comb height.

Adam


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## HopkinBees (Jun 24, 2011)

This may be a little off subject, I made mine TBH extra large at 50" long, with 18" bars (thats inside D), 16" deep, 6" across the bottom board; some 34 bars, about half full at this point. Need to make another with my neighbor who's interested in trying his hand at Urban bee keeping.

//marlon


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

marlon.

Man. That's big. Bet it'd be hard to notice that hive sitting in a trailer park 

Do you have bees in that one yet? I would imagine a comb that size full of honey would weigh a ton. Mine run 5.5 - 7 lbs.

Adam


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## HopkinBees (Jun 24, 2011)

It's a wing building to the "Men crisis center"(my garage!)LOL.

And yes I've got bees occupying that warehouse space right now, they've about 12-14 full bars and a lot of misc bars with comb and honey.

http://s1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb360/handymarlon/

//marlon


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Wow. Beautiful. I like the hinged roof. Matt (Cacklewack) does that with his hives too, I believe. Pretty cool that you've set it up to hold a bar for you too. I doubt that you'd need a longer hive with combs that big.

Thanks for sharing that photo.

Adam


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

They are made from 1x8 cedar fence boards. Two boards joined together with a 1/2" ship lap joint with the top and bottom beveled so that the bar ends sit flat across the wall boards. The bottom board sits inside the walls and and is also beveled to match the angle of the walls. The way the hive is constructed it is very stable with a minimal number of fasteners (decking screws) required. 










I just love the pic of Marlon's brood comb showing the pattern, brood laying and emergent flow of a nest.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Sweet. That looks awesome. And cedar - wicked. That sucker can sit untreated in the weather for 100 years before it's no good. I wish we lived closer, so that I could get to that wood source you're using.

I've thought about using all 2x lumber for future models, as it's easier to come by than 1x, and often no more expensive. The once I have now have 2x end boards and bottom board, with 1.25 ply sides. Pretty stable. As I mentioned in other threads. I had a black bear drag one 100' over rocks and roots, eat ever single comb, and not even break the 32" glass window in the side. Meanwhile, my father's which were constructed of 1x, had the windows crack due to would warping, and had fasteners pull in joints as well.

So in a sense, we are comparing apples and oranges in terms of dimensions. Your hives have larger combs. And it boils down to total comb surface. And that is not just a function of length, but one of all dimensions.

Most tbh users are using smaller hives than that (if they follow Phil Chandler's design, or Michael Bush's, or Backyard Hive, or Gold Star). In those heights/widths, I think a 5 foot hive might be ideal. If you have a taller/wider individual comb, then 4 is probably great.

Yeah, Marlon has added pics since I looked the first time. Too bees, all spaces are vertical, as comb hangs in the space, and they work it top to bottom. They only move laterally to build the next comb. The cavity only dictates the number and height of the vertical surfaces.

Adam


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

The cedar fence boards a reasonably priced compared to other woods around here. Everyone on this coast uses it for fencing and seem to replace their fences when the posts start to rot at the base at ground level after 20 years or so, even though the panels are perfectly fine. Makes for a lot of free cedar boards.


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