# Bottom boards



## RedBarn (May 31, 2017)

What is your preferred way to make bottom boards?


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

I make a pocket screw frame from 3/4" lumber. Sides and back are 1-1/2" wide, front is 3" wide. The frame can receive #8 hardware cloth for an SBB*, or I can cut a 3/8" rabbet and insert a 3/8" plywood sheet for a solid bottom board. The frame keeps the plywood out of the weather.

The pocket screw frame sits on 2x4 runners. I actually rip the 2x4 to 3". I cut a 45° on one end of the runners, and I cut a slot for a sticky board if its going to be an SBB. I glue (Titebond III waterproof) and nail the frame to the runners. I rip a 45° bevel on the edge of the landing board and secure it to the angled runners. The landing board will be slightly proud so sand it or plane it flat (watch out for nails). Then I brad nail 3/4 x 3/4 perimeter boards on, paint, and staple on #8 hardware cloth if I'm making a SBB. 

* The board in the pictures is an 8F SBB. I've quit making SBBs but still make solid boards the same, I like having the landing ramp integrated, its only one thing to carry that way. If you decide to use my bottom board and you are using screened bottoms, do yourself a favor and go ahead and router a 3/8" rabbet in top side of the pocket screw frame before you attach the perimeter boards and screen, just in case you change your mind, it'll be much easier to retrofit to a solid bottom that way.


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## RedBarn (May 31, 2017)

Dang... you get fancy. They look awesome !

I want cheep and easy. I've used 2x2 with plywood, but they seem to warp.

Love yours, but don't wanna take that much time it would take me to figure that out !


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## RedBarn (May 31, 2017)

This is an old one. All 3/4" wood.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Try the plans here: http://beesource.com/build-it-yourself/10-frame-langstroth-beehive-barry-birkey/




How's this for fancy? I added a slotted board with a hanger bolt, so with a knob nut I can securely attach robber screens, entrance reducers, and mouse guards. Here it is with a robber screen attached.


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## RedBarn (May 31, 2017)

Jc, that bottom looks nice and easy and quick... that's what I need for now. 

I don't have exterior plywood, but may use regular I have laying around and paint it good.

Anyone know if I can paint the inside of the bottom board to protect it ?


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Aside from priming the top of all my bottom boards, I paint it white regardless of the outside color. Makes it easier to see what drops from inside the hive. Yes you can paint the top of the bottom board, the part thats "inside" the hive.


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## RedBarn (May 31, 2017)

Thanks RW. That is what I was hoping to hear. 

Suppose, everyone has different thoughts, but if it is ok for some, should be ok for me.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

I fully paint my bottom boards. It makes cleaning them up easier. 

If you follow the Beesource plan linked in my last post but cut your plywood 3-1/2inches shorter and then cut a 3-1/2 wide board the same length as the plywood is wide, and glue it to the plywood edge to edge you'll have a solid wood landing board to the weather, and your non-exterior grade plywood is now all inside the hive. 

When plywood is exposed to the weather the exposed end grain is where damage starts. The end grain sucks up water and then the water delaminates the layers of the plywood. A strip of solid wood glued to the edge of the plywood with Titebond III exterior wood glue significantly slows that process, and once it's painted it will last a long time.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

I make them warre style. I can make them quick and out of scrap laying around. I also never have to worry about getting the bottom box sitting just right on the bottom board as it’s flat.


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## lobottomee (May 3, 2015)

I stopped using conventional bottom boards. I build these now....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMTdQxb_73s&t=7s


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I have a variety of bottom boards in use - the best I've yet designed for my vertical hives is to have a solid bottom board (made from pallet planks) with an Open Mesh Floor above it, with these separated by a 3-sided eke. There's a 4th side to the eke which is only attached if a gale is forecast - otherwise it stays open at the rear all year round providing ventilation. With bottom entrances there's no through-draught.

I have played with sheets of Correx which fit on top of the solid floor (and thus under the OMF) to catch debris, which can then be removed at intervals by sliding the Correx sheet out, backwards, through the 'missing' eke side - but in practice it's just as easy to use an L-shaped scraper to pull the debris out by the same route.
LJ


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We build the "Level Drain" per my Grandfather's patent, US2446081. It can be flipped over and the other side is identical.

Crazy Roland


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

My bottom boards are 22 x 16 1/4" x 1/2" exterior plywood. One end and the sides 19 7/8" long are rimmed with 1/4" slices of 1 by scrap. Feet/stiffeners are 1" slices of 2 by scrap 16 7/8" long. The entrance end foot is underneath the entrance. If entrance collapse, insert one inch piece of the 1/4" rim material. 

I like them because no room for a rattlesnake to get in. A mouse has to chew and attract attention getting in. And the **** ventillation fetish is crazy. I reduce that entrance much of the year. I have an upper entrance too, a hole bored in hive bodies right below hand hold when appopriate. When not appropriate, duct tape.


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## RedBarn (May 31, 2017)

Vance,
Dou you have a couple pics you could post please ?


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

In case anybody is interested in what I described. This is a warre floor in Langstroth dimensions. For this floor I had some scrap tongue and groove laying around. Underneath is a board going across the front and back. They add stability and the board across the front doubles as a landing board. All the bottom boards I haven’t done have been made out of scrap.


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## Don Warren (Mar 5, 2016)

I use the plans shown on myoldtools.com click on beekeepers pages . quick , easy, and cheap! cutting the shelf from the 2x4 runners , i only cut in 1/2" instead of 3/4", this leaves a wider piece of wood for the box to sit on.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Lobottomee, what advantage do you think your design has over a conventional BB?
Has anyone used pvc trim? I have some scraps and was thinking a BB would be a good use for it. Never rot.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

If I had PVC trim boards lying around, I would use them. Too expensive to buy new for that purpose. My bottom boards are exact copies of the Brushy Mountain SBB. The nuc size costs me $4.97 to make. Haven't done the math for a 10 frame but figure an extra $.70 for screen and wood.


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## lobottomee (May 3, 2015)

Fivej 

- Since I started using these I no longer have to worry about mice. Drafts from strong winds are minimized, and where I live wind driven snow no longer gets blown inside. It's not possible for rain to get into the hive at all, and I've also noticed that robbers seem to get confused by the design. It's not visible in the videos, but the back is removable and inside there is a varroa screen and tray that slides in and out. If I want ventilation I can simply leave the back cover off, and in the winter I have foam insulation cut to size that just slides in to insulate the bottom. And for me, one of the best things is that during the winter I can take the back off and slide in my stethoscope and listen to make sure the bees are okay, and tell about where the cluster is by how strong the buzzing is.

I admit these are more complicated to build than a conventional bottom, but now that I have the steps and measurements down I can average about 20 minutes each if I do a bunch at a time.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Interesting Lobottomee. I assume you can clean from the back? Would like to see more pics if you have them. Would like to hear pros/cons from others. Seems like a good design. J


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Roland said:


> We build the "Level Drain" per my Grandfather's patent, US2446081. It can be flipped over and the other side is identical.


Just for fun I decided to look into this.

One can read the patent details here:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2446081

And here is the associated drawing:

(click image to see full size)


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## lobottomee (May 3, 2015)

Here are a few photos of my earlier designs that will give you a sense of what these look like inside. In these photos the screen and bottom are fixed in place. My most current design now has a back that can be removed and a slide out bottom tray and varroa screen, plus some other detail changes to make construction easier. These are all built out of standard dimensional lumber (2x6 and 2x4).









Basic configuration looks like this:









I then cut down the the front portion to build the entryway:

















This is what the basic form looks like:









More in the next post......


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## lobottomee (May 3, 2015)

Continued.....

The basic form:

















In order for the bees to get up and into the hive, I need to cut down the 2x6 under the porch and make a slot for them. This can be done on either a radial arm or table saw. By adjusting the depth of cut on the saw you can control how deep the slot is. I slice out 5/16 inch, which is plenty big for all the bees to go through, even queens and drones, yet not big enough for mice to squeeze through. The other thing for mice is that even if they tried to go through, they'd have to try and climb up and squeeze through at the same time. A couple of times I saw signs they tried for a bit, but none has ever made it.

Here you can get a better idea what I'm referring to. The saw is cutting 5/16 inch deep, but I only make a partial cut:

















In each "climb-way" I run a single saw kerf all the way through. When everything is put together, these kerfs will all any water that happens to collect on the landing to drain away:










more in the next post......


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Just for fun I decided to look into this.
> 
> One can read the patent details here:
> https://patents.google.com/patent/US2446081
> ...


Interesting.


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## lobottomee (May 3, 2015)

Continued....

This shows how it fits...

























As I said earlier, this is a much earlier design. It had a solid bottom and holes drilled and screened to provide ventilation if I wanted it. To stop ventilation, I simply pushed the plugs from drilling the holes back in. And you can the screen on the top. 

This design actually worked quite well, but it didn't have the ability to show varroa counts, and to clean it it was necessary to lift up the rest of the hive, take out this bottom unit, clean it, and then put it back again. My newer design has a removable back so I can install a slide out screen and bottom and clean everything from the back while it's in service.









A couple early models in service. Particularly notice the high-tech roofs. I've since refined that too:










Hopefully this gives you enough to get an idea of how these work. They're inexpensive too.... total cost of materials is about $5, and like I said earlier, my newest design is optimized so I can build one in about 20 minutes or so.

Lobo


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Thanks Lobotomee. Do you find that they build burr comb towards the entrance and do you notice fuller frames of brood towards the entrance?


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## lobottomee (May 3, 2015)

Have not seen burr comb in that area and the combs seem to be consistent regardless of position. Have also seen no evidence that the gaps get plugged up with dead bees after winter either.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Great thread, some really nice designs.

All of my hives are on home made Screened Bottom Boards. I don't really think they have any advantage over Solid Bottom Boards, but my reason for using them is specifically for ease of OAV application. The 3/4" opening for the tray (and vaporizer unit) is at the back so I can work my way down the line when vaporizing and stay away from bees at the front of the hive. 

I tend to be pretty frugal, so all of the 3/4" lumber is salvaged from residential or commercial jobsites. The only cost in making these would be the nails and hardware cloth. No fancy joints, just quick table saw cuts, and nail everything together.

I use corrugated plastic political signs for trays year round, and wedge a piece of wood under the end at the opening to cut down on any drafts into the hives. My bees seem to build up better and use the bottom box more readily if the opening is pretty much closed up.

For vaporizing, I'll remove the corrugated plastic tray, slide in a piece of marker board cut to size, and insert the vaporizer unit on the board. The vapor goes right up through the hardware cloth and fills the boxes above. This keeps me and the unit away from the bees, it is under the screen and I'm working at the back of the hives. 

I don't use bottom entrances, but these could easily be made with 3/4" strips above the screen with the entrance side left open. This is a SBB for my nucs, the design is the same on the 10 frame hives.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

RedBarn said:


> Vance,
> Dou you have a couple pics you could post please ?


I cannot post pics. Pm me an email address and I will get you the pictures.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Since we are playing show and tell, this is one of the two SBB that I made this evening. Of course, if you use BM equipment, you already know what this looks like. I slide a piece of plastic signboard under the bottom board during cold weather but typically leave it open May through October.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Show and tell ? There's a graphic of my method at: http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek03.htm

Apart from fitting the closure as a response to a gale warning, the only other time they're fitted is when there's a likelihood of bees getting trapped underneath the OMF, such as when introducing a new colony, or when the hive is rotated during the running of a (divided) Cloake Board.







LJ


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

JConnolly said:


> I make a pocket screw frame from 3/4" lumber. . .


JConnolly - How do you like working with pocket screws? I've see the jigs for sale in my Home Depot, and have wondered if they are worth trying . . .


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm not _JConnolly_ , but I recently started using pocket screws with a Kreg jig, and I am very pleased with the product and concept.

I haven't used then with hive woodenware, but have been building kitchen cabinets and find pocket screws very effective in assembling the [plywood] carcase and attaching face frames. Most of those joints are a 90 degree joint and the pocket screws work very well for that. I also had occasion to need a 'removable' 180 degree joint (two boards 'edge' joined) and that also has worked out well.

I was a 'square drive' screw _aficionado_ before I encountered pocket holes, so the square drive Kreg screws quickly found a place in my shop for non-pocket use as well.

Virtually all of my pocket joints are not visible/hidden in the finished cabinets, so the "ugliness" of the pocket hole is not a factor. I have tried in a few spots using the available 'plugs' glued into the hole to conceal the screw, and while it 'works', its not particularly attractive IMO. 

In woodenware, I think it would be best to use plugs to improve the weather-tightness of the hole/joint, but I'm not convinced that the total effort would be worth the resulting product compared to just plain Titebond glued/stapled rabbet joints.

.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Rader - Thanks for the info. How strong is the joint?

I ask, because I never get good results whenever I "toe-nail" a 90 degree joint when building wood fame structures. I pretty much can always find a better/stronger solution than toe-nailing. With a few exceptions, I stopped using nails and now use construction screws for all my wood building projects. However, the same poor results hold true when I "toe-screw" and drill pilot holes, which seems close to the Kregg jig and pocket screwing . . . ?


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

shinbone said:


> JConnolly - How do you like working with pocket screws? I've see the jigs for sale in my Home Depot, and have wondered if they are worth trying . . .


Good question. Pocket screws make a very snug strong joint. They are fast and easy. They rival a stub tenon joint in strength but not a through tenon. As far as usefulness in making beehives there aren't that many joints that need them. I use them for my bottom boards and for telescoping cover sides. And that's about it. My boxes are all box joints and everything else is rabbet joints.

If you've got tools to make lap joints and rabbet joints and you are only making bee woodenware then the decision to buy one or not is a matter of whether you want to blow some money or not. If you've got the money to blow and want to try it out, go for it. 

There has been one or two beeks from time to time that say they make their boxes with pocket screws. I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work. If you are using butt joints and screws then the advantage of the pocket screw is that it puts the screw head in the end grain and the threads bite into cross grain, where as if you used screws on the outside then the threads are biting into the end grain, which is weaker - however I'd just use a longer screw to solve that problem. If you have SHB then filling the pocket would be a must otherwise its a great place for the SHB to hide from patrolling bees.

If you are making other projects, cabinets, furniture, end tables, patio furniture, and you have a pocket screw jig, you'll find yourself using it all the time. I use them all the time on my other projects.

There is a portable pocket screw jig, model R3, that is $40, but the two-face clamp $20 is a must have for it, so its $60. A little less expensive if usage is not going to be heavy. They also sell some simpler one hole jigs but it doesn't have any kind edge alignment guide, its for a specific thickness board and for use on inside corners, I wouldn't bother with one of those.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Just a note on my bottom board that I posted above. It looks complicated, but it's actually really easy to build. If you use stock 3/4 x 1-1/2, 3/4 x 3-1/2, 3/4 x 3/4, and a 2 x 4, you can make the entire thing with a chop saw except for the one bevel rip and the IPM board groove. If you left off the angled landing board and used cleats to hold the IPM board instead of a groove, then you only need a chop saw and pocket hole jig. A pneumatic stapler is a plus though.

I've started to retrofit the SBB version of my bottom boards with a floor and a door flap. After trying SBB for three seasons I'm not much of a fan of them, but the retrofit lets me close up the bottom while keeping the screen as a kind of a hybrid between screened boards and a solid board. I cut a 3/8 x 1/2" rabbet in the bottom of the runners and inserted a 7/16" sheet of pre-painted OSB and attached a door with a piano hinge and a gate keeper. I still have to leave a coroplast board in place otherwise its going to be difficult to clean out, but hive ventilation is now normal. In the winter I can slide in a piece of foam board, and (I haven't tried this yet) if desired, a heater. So far what I've noticed is the queen is using more of the lower box, more like if I had a solid bottom, but this is a sample size of just one so far. I'm going to retrofit the rest of my screened bottoms and I'll see what I think of it in a couple of years.


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

Ok guys a new beek here. Ive built a bunch of boxes using butt joints. I glued with tite bond 2, brad nailied caulked all joints and nail holes, 2 coats primer, 2-3 coats semi gloss exterior paint. Hoping they will be durable and last several years. I do question durability in the long run. In future, I'll build my wood shop, and bee room , I'll set up equipment and jigs for everything then. Any opinions on what I done so far? Will they hold up Ok?


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

There is nothing wrong with a butt joint and should last you a few years. Who knows, years from now even after you have a shop set up and are making box jointed woodenware you'll probably have some of those first year boxes in your mix. 

The only suggestion I have is to use Titebond III in your hives instead of Titebond II. TB III is water resistant. However the ones you have will be just fine for many years of use and the paint/caulk will protect the joint.


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

Thanks jConnelly , im a professional painter, and home remodeler, and not a true pro finish carpenter. But a decent carpenter. Everyone local said my boxes wouldnt work, and i overkill on the painting and prep side. Lol. Honestly, that's how I do my work, and with this project, I'm the same way, I guess. As I have a farm, this will be included as part of the business. Most consider keeping bees as a hobby, mabye yes to an extent, but to me it's both. I never want to spend hard earned money on something that I look to produce a product, or products from without thinking that a profit must be made at some point. 
I fly model rc airplanes, that's a hobby. But when I get a quadcopter or drone as some are saying now, and use it to look at my fields, or cattle, ect. That's part of the farm business at that point. I like the husbandry side of this life, and my livestock, bees included should be done as close to affordable, and well maintained as can be done. Thanks!!! For any and all help, and advice, as this is a slow spring start for me. I want all equipment on hand, and in excess.


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## coalsmok (Jan 27, 2017)

I use whatever I have handy for the floor. Then put 3/4” strips around 3 sides and a couple stiffeners the appropriate direction on the bottom side. Glue, staple and paint. Some are rough cut lumber and some are plywood.


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

Will switch to tote bond 3 , almost out of titebond 2 . I assume they sell but the gallon Also? Seems would be allot cheaper the the at. Squeeze bottles. But I like working out of the squeeze bottles for ease of use. I'll recycle them.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Titebond II has held up every bit as well for me outdoors as Titebond III ever has. Save your money, get more Titebond II.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Richinbama said:


> ...im a professional painter, and home remodeler, and not a true pro finish carpenter.


Haven't you ever heard what they say about painters?



> Paint makes a carpenter what he ain't.


About Titebond: Titebond II is the stronger glue. For things that don't get wet its the one to have. Titebond III is for stuff that's out in the weather. I keep both around, I buy II in the big bottle, and III in the little squeeze bottle since I don't use as much of it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is what the manufacturer of Titebond says about the two TB glues' water-resistance qualities:


> Titebond II >> First one-part wood glue to pass ANSI Type II water-resistance
> Titebond III >> passes the ANSI/HPVA Type I water-resistance specification
> 
> *What is the difference between the ANSI/HPVA Type I and Type II water-resistance specification?
> ...


Given that a gallon of Titebond II sells for about 50% the price of Titebond III in local stores, and I plan to keep my hives *out* of boiling water, Titebond II seems perfectly suited for hive body use, in my view.


(Note, there are slight differences in the two glues other than Type I/II water resistance. TB III has a bit longer 'open' time and the minimum application temperature for the uncured glue is a bit lower than TBII, so if those qualities are important for your use then there are other reasons to pay extra for TB III.)


Oh ... Harbor Freight sell 3-packs of empty squeeze bottles for cheap ... well suited for applying glue.


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

Great research guys !!! I'm into msds sheets myself. Looks like more titebond 2 for me then. Unless direct weather exposure is immanent. 3 is obviously better, but for application. 2 is king .

Yes the statement that a professional painter makes the carpenter look good is true. Those trim guys... they owe me allot for my over 35 yrs of fixing their quality work...lol


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I predominantly use TB III because it has a longer open time, its less viscous, it will set at 50 F, or if there is some extreme exposure to water and I don't mean under water. If these are factors in what you do, i.e. woodworking projects, then I would suggest you use TB III. Two of TB IIIs downsides are it dries dark, and by dark I mean very dark, another is, its waterproof. So if you get it on your clothes and it cures, it won't wash out, its there forever scratching you. TB II is more forgiving but like I said, most of what I do is accomplished with TB III. TB I is great also, just know your application. Anything beekeeping can be done with TB II with no problems I have ever seen barring not using enough glue in a joint. 

As I've said, TB II in direct weather exposure has held up exceedingly well, every bit as well as TB III. I, personally, prefer TB III for what I do.


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

I'll probably use type 2 mostly, but will keep some 3 on hand also. I don't have an issue with getting dirty, with perm. Glues. I work with paints, caulk, ect each day. If I don't leave with something on my clothes , the wife might think I didn't work...lol 😉


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

New question of the day. !!!
Bee keeping suits...
I found the humble bee 420 on Amazon. It's full suit, vented, and had some decent reviews. $159.00 ....
Anyone have suggestions, as to what may be a better or equal product at a better price. I'm not sure of protection levels of any suits out there, they all say they are the best... I wear a large but could go dsl if I had to. Seems LG is sometimes sold out, and some of these price by size. Any good deals out there, and if so give me some recommendations or links to these good deals. Thanks, Richard


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## PAHunter62 (Jan 26, 2011)

I made up a bunch using this design today ...

https://youtu.be/Hnt4Gb_c7aw

I'm using 5/8ths Advantech and ripped pressure treated boards for the rails. Will prime and paint.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I think the general consensus is to NOT use pressure treated lumber inside the hive. OK for a hive stand since the bees wont be in regular contact with it.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Yeah, pressure treated wood has been infused with chemicals to kill insects. Although bees don't eat wood they do live in contact with it and collect resins from it. Paint will afford the bees some protection but pressure treated wood has a high moisture content and does not bond paint well until it has been allowed to dry for several months. PT works well as a hive stand material where it is in contact with the ground.


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## PAHunter62 (Jan 26, 2011)

I only used pressure treated for the rails, they were very dry, been sitting for about 8 months or so. Will prime and paint before using on the hive. As stated, I'm using 5/8ths Advantech for the bottom board. It will be primed and painted too. This is a test to see how long the Advantech will hold up in this application.

PAHunter62


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

The wood is good and dry then. I think you'll like the Advantech. I've been using it for a year now and so far I'm pleased with it, although I haven't used it for a bottom. Make sure you seal the one exposed edge really well and it should last a very long time.


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## beekeating (Jul 4, 2014)

lobottomee said:


> I stopped using conventional bottom boards. I build these now....
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMTdQxb_73s&t=7s


Interesting design. Thanks for sharing.


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## physicsdude (Mar 6, 2015)

I'm not a carpenter, and I don't try to be. I intend to get some quality bboards, but for now I use ply wood, and 3/8 in. trim for the runners.


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