# Powdered Sugar?



## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

I guess it depends on the blender. If the result feels like powdered sugar (or talcum powder) between your fingers, my guess is that it would work. If it's still grainy, perhaps not.


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## clintonbemrose (Oct 23, 2001)

I also make my own powdered sugar in the blender. I have found that doing only 1 cup of cane sugar at a time for 5 minutes on high works the best. I am using an older Vita-mix pro blender.
Clint


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

It'll be important that these homemade powdered sugars are fine enough to get trapped underneath the varroas' suction pads. If the particles are too coarse or, I suppose, too fine they likely won't work as well as the 'factory' stuff.
Just food for thought (if there's some sort of pun in that it's purely unintentional).


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## taipantoo (Nov 9, 2007)

If it's not fine enough, just whiz it up some more.
I don't think you can get it too fine.
If you use a Mason jar instead of the blender vessel you can save a clean-up step and the powdered sugar is already in your dispenser if you punch holes in a canning lid,then just swap it for a solid lid to store any that is unused.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

taipantoo said:


> I don't think you can get it too fine.


Is this just speculation or do you have some basis for it?
I'd hate to advise someone on varroa treatment based solely on guesswork only to discover that I was mistaken later.


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Seems to me I remember a size of 5 microns being mentioned somewhere once. I don't recall if that was the grain size or cup size? I would guess the grain size?

You'll probably need to break out the ole yard stick and measure it when your done blending. :scratch:


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## Dinor (Mar 6, 2007)

I have read that any inert fine powder is equally effective. The fineness is important though. I tried milling ordinary granulated sugar in a grain mill and couldn't get the fineness down enough. I have reverted to using store bought icing sugar.


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## taipantoo (Nov 9, 2007)

beemandan said:


> Is this just speculation or do you have some basis for it?
> I'd hate to advise someone on varroa treatment based solely on guesswork only to discover that I was mistaken later.


Sorry, I missed this reply or I would have gotten back to you sooner.
It is speculation on my part, but I have both store bought and home made and I can't tell the difference by feel.
I make my own because of the anti caking agents used in the store bought stuff.
I use an old Hamilton Beach blender on puree for a few minutes.
If your worried just by the junk in the store.


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## feral.farmer (Sep 8, 2008)

*stone cold dusted...*

yesterday was one of the last, nice days of the year here in portland. 
i took the opportunity in the sunny weather to treat my bees for mites, using two different methods. my apologies to the choir for the redundant info.

for varrhoa mites, i used 4-6 cups of divert sugar that i attempted to blend finer and distributed via flour sifter, which i sifted over the top frames of both hive deeps in each colony(and across the bottoms of those deeps, by putting the deeps on their sides and tipping them towards me). it seemed like i was getting good coverage over the colony with this method, as opposed to taking out each frame and dusting both sides, which sounds nightmarish. the sugar dusting encourages hygienic behavior which dislodges mites and i expect the bees appreciate the extra sweet treat. divert sugar is available at most reputable bee supply stores and also has excellent moisture reducing properties. 

i then experimented with john jones' method of treating with thyme oil/food grade mineral oil dipped paper towels. i poured 16oz of fgmo in a pint mason jar and added 10 drops of red thyme oil and 5 drops of tea tree oil(for good measure), then soaked 4 single sheets of undyed brown paper towel in this mixture (two at a time). i wrung the excess oil from the towels and then placed them on the top bars, two per deep, in a loosely rolled fashion which resembled a disconnected "s"...two towels per deep, for a total of four towels per hive. i then made sure that the hive was buttoned up by reducing my entrances (which i'd done a month previous) and replacing mite catch trays under my IPM screened bottoms, in effect creating a vapor chamber for the oils to work their magic.

i hope to have success with both of these methods, although this is my first season trying either. :thumbsup:

sam of swarming hordes apiary, portland, oregon usA


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## Durandal (Sep 5, 2007)

5 microns or smaller...

I was able to get two dustings on them prior to cold weather setting in. They are clustered well now and unless they have some warmer evening planned for a couple days back to back that is all they may get.

I simply waited too long. 

Mite drop immediately following dusting is rather amazing.


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## Fred Bee (May 5, 2007)

*Effacacy of Powdered Sugar Treatments?*

I just returned from the Tn State Bee Conference in Memphis. We had an excellent slate of speakers. Among them were Dr. Jamie Ellis and Dr. Amanda Ellis, who do honey bee research in Florida. They shared that after extensive testing...the effacacy of powdered sugar treatments for varroa mites was not significant. I was really taken back by this as I had been led to believe that powdered sugar treatments were effective. According to them, based on a large number of hives tested, there was little significant difference in hives that had powdered sugar treatements and those that did not over a one year period.


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## Dale Hodges (Jul 13, 2007)

*powedered sugar*

I've got a problem with anyone saying powdered sugar isn't effective. I've have had real good luck for the last 3years. My mites are under control , not gone, but small numbers on sticky boards. I question studies that try only one small part of a process, or limit the study to only one test and then condeem the whole idea. When I decided to use PS, I treated my hives once a week for 5 weeks, then continue once a month. I've been getting the smallest mite numbers I've had over any other method.


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## Durandal (Sep 5, 2007)

Fred Bee said:


> ...According to them, based on a large number of hives tested, there was little significant difference in hives that had powdered sugar treatements and those that did not over a one year period.


I'd need to see the how the study was set up. 

I can honesty say that in my second treatment that when I placed sheets under the SBB, closing them up (in an attempt to reduce the amount of sugar reaching the ground and setting up robbing like situations), I counted dozens and dozens of mites on the plastic sheet milling around in the powder vs the ten or twelve I counted in my initial sightings on a single hive.

While the powder sugar does nothing to interrupt the mites growth in a cell it does have a fairly obvious effect in immediately removing mites, physically off bees either as a result of the fine 5 micron or smaller dusting causing the mites to lose their grip upon the host or as a result bees becoming agitated and cleaning up the mess in the hive and on themselves caused by the dusting. 

My treatment was interrupted because of cold weather.

What is impacting my hives is that the three hives with lower mite counts had later season queens in them (from swarm or raised from cells from adjacent hive after I accidentally killed during inspection).

I would think that if there was truth in brood laying interruption and later laying late season queens it would mean that the more brood in it later in the season would attribute to the higher mite loads.

Again, my treatments were cut short because of cold temps and I have not been able to get back into the boxes to visually confirm this.

I can tell by the debris on the sheets of plastic that brood is still emerging.

Just sort of rambling now...

I am not sold on the powder sugar treatment but I made a choice to not treat with acids or miticides this year and wanted to see what would happen. My newbie decision to wait later in the season now has me short on the treatment method and playing catch up for weather. Its been 14 days now since the last treatment and I do not doing another one will matter since there has been a generation of mites "hatched" with emerging brood. I'd have to do it all over again I would think.

I may make that a separate thread, looking at a debris under a macro to diagnose what is going on in a hive without opening it up.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

*Sugar dusting won't prevent mite buildup.*

I have sugar dusted 20 colonies for the last two years and my experience is that dusting alone will not prevent the mite population from reaching the economic threshold for this area. The threshold set by our state inspector is 3500 mites in August or a 24hr drop of 25 mites.This year I did a dusting the first of each month and if the drop was >50 I would dust every 3 days until the drop was <50. I have 2 colonies that I never had to dust other than the first dusting of each month. Starting in July the mite populations increased rapidly in the other 18.In spite of continued dustings, by September the mite populations were out of control so I treated all 20 colonies with Mite-Away 11 and counted mite falls. My two best colonies dropped 822 and 850 during the treatment period, the others ranged from 2920 to 7171. One colony on standard cell size was never dusted and it dropped only 3400 mites.Next year I plan to include drone brood removal starting in early spring along with sugar dustings and to raise queens from my best colonies for requeening.I also plan to buy a II Russian from Glen Apiaries, raise a few queens and give that stock a try.


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## Black Creek (May 19, 2006)

*powdered sugar sources?*

Where do most people get their powdered sugar from? All the stores in my area just have those little bags. Who sells 20lb or 50lb bulk bags? With the price of the small bag, it's probably cheaper to order a 50lb sack online and have it shipped. But what other outlets would have it?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The guy who is succeeding with powdered sugar around here is adding garlic powder. I wonder if that sets off a lot more grooming?


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

Black Creek said:


> Where do most people get their powdered sugar from? All the stores in my area just have those little bags. Who sells 20lb or 50lb bulk bags? With the price of the small bag, it's probably cheaper to order a 50lb sack online and have it shipped. But what other outlets would have it?


costco has big bags of powdered sugar.


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> The guy who is succeeding with powdered sugar around here is adding garlic powder. I wonder if that sets off a lot more grooming?


Garlic is a natural pesticide....I give it to my dog and cats for fleas. Although...the last time I did a powdered sugar treatment....I think you're right about the grooming part...they were so irritated and I felt soo bad.


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

the last time I did a powdered sugar treatment....I think you're right about the grooming part...they were so irritated and I felt soo bad.[/QUOTE said:


> It's funny; I have noticed bees our bees are not upset at all when I dust. We've been dusting for a long time and frequently for about 5 years. Sometimes I get curious buzz, mostly no reaction at all. Recently, I started dusting neighbors bees, and boy, did they get upset. I realized they had never been dusted. .getting angry when you dust, but that hasn't happened to our bees recently. What brought it to mind, I helped a beekeeper dust her very infested bees and they were really upset. They had never been dusted before. The second time, they were not angry, just a lot of activity, and by the third time, no angry buzzing, just a lot of flying. Someone just filmed me dusting the bees and I got to figure out how to get it on Utube or something. I haven’t been very sucesfful, not great with computer stuff. Anyways, you can see how calm the bees are. I wonder if the bees have not only got used to it, but enjoy it, like chickens enjoy a good dusting.
> Best wishes,
> Janet


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

<I would think that if there was truth in brood laying interruption and later laying late season queens it would mean that the more brood in it later in the season would attribute to the higher mite loads.>

About three years or so ago the going concept was that interupting the brood cycle after peak buildup gave the mites a setback because their brood cycle lags behind the bees. The idea was that when the mite population was trying to peak there were no larvae for them to feed on.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Durandal said:


> My newbie decision to wait later in the season now has me short on the treatment method and playing catch up for weather. Its been 14 days now since the last treatment and I do not doing another one will matter since there has been a generation of mites "hatched" with emerging brood. I'd have to do it all over again I would think.


I'll continue to offer my opinion regarding dusting and that is that using sugar is only part of a larger plan to address pests, especially mites. The number of threads in this post and the varied experience does more than just suggest a lack of facts. It points to a vast difference in environments, mite loads, brood cycles and beekeepers efforts. To me, the quote above is an example of a variable. Durandal is stating that a late dusting doesn't give enough time to provide effective treatments over the longer term. Just one example of a treatment shortcoming. Not that the treatment isn't valid, just that the treatment isn't valid all the time for all circumstances. If you're using ONLY sugar you WILL have a hive someday that explodes with mites and you WILL lose it unless you do something else. Any mitigating factor will have an effect. On a mite infested hive you could go and kill your queen with some mitigating effect on mites....as well as a more profound effect on your hive. Integrated pest management, a system that addresses a small set of problems with a broad range of solutions is much more effective, easier to incorporate into a beekeepers calendar year, less apt to fail and far more responsive to urgent situations than a single approach, unless that single approach is always the only option. Just my two cents.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I agree with Ravenseye. One thing 30 years of beekeeping has taught me is that nothing works 100% of the time. A beekeeper must be flexible.

Don't get locked into one technique when dealing with beekeeping problems. Always weigh your options and then select the one that gives the best chance for success in that particular situation. The practical approach to beekeeping is more successful than a strictly idealistic one. 

For a hobby beekeeper a total reliance on chemicals is foolish but the total rejection of chemicals is just as foolish. IPM works and should be used by any beekeeper with varroa problems. 

One thing we should remember is VSH in our queens will have the greatest impact on varroa populations in our colonies. Hobby beekeepers should select for this trait and only keep queens that have it.


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## yoyo (Jun 13, 2007)

I would like to know if the sugar dust has any effect on brood. I have heard that it causes an interuption in brood rearing, and can cause the larvae to dry out because of the drying effect the dust has. I had purchased a garden duster to use as a duster but before I had a chance to use it, I was told it would kill all the uncapped brood. Can someone confirm or deny these statements. Also, if you are having success with it, what is your application rates and methods and time between applications.


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

i can deny those statements- it dosent affect brood at all. possibly you have confused sugar dusting with chemical tratments. i dust once a week for 4 weeks, so far, so good. goodluck,mike


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I have not seen any break in egg laying but I have seen limited brood removal. The brood was 2 to 3 day old larvae that was healthy appearing when inspected before dusting. The day after dusting I saw 3 colonies that had 3 inch circles where larvae had been removed.

These circles were on the outer edges of the brood nest and I only saw this on 3 occasions during the summer. I believe I over dusted and got sugar in those cells.

I use the method described in Randy Oliver's articles in the Bee Journal. I treated all colonies the first week in June. After the first dusting I re-dusted any colony that had a mite fall greater than 50 mites, and I dusted every 3 days until the fall was below 50. This number was usually reached after 5 or 6 dustings.

Dusting did not prevent the mite population from reaching the economic threshold of 3500 mites in September. I treated with formic acid and counted mite fall to determine this. I intend to try again this summer, starting earlier and combining with drone brood removal.


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## yoyo (Jun 13, 2007)

If you are having to dust that much, and still have to treat in September, I would think that you have not been very successfull(with the dusting). I have gone the whole winter and summer and only treated in September with Api-life VAR when DWV bees were in front of the hives on the ground. The highest total count I had for any hive during the treatment was around 2500. Maybe that will change this year and will be much higher. Of course one could now argue that if I had dusted, then maybe I would not have had to treat with the api-life var. Dusting every 3 - 5 days seems labor intensive and counter productive for the honey crop. I wonder also if sugar dusting could be considered as something that will adulterate the honey.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I don't consider sugar dusting to be a viable mite control measure, at least the way I did it this year. I promised myself that I would try it for three years befor I give up and called it a failure.

The colonies I dusted were not in honey production. They were in their second year of trying to draw 4.9 foundation properly and they were fed sugar syrup to draw wax and for winter stores. We had a very poor nectar flow this spring.

I would not reccommend dusting while honey supers were still on the colony. I don't think it would contaminate the honey but why take the chance. 

The amount of labor involved in dusting should not be a problem with hobby beekeepers but I would not want to try it if I were making a living producing honey.


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