# Bees Dying Posts



## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

<The moderator know as PB suggested beekeepers shut up on the list and let the experts figure it out.>

Bwahahahha!!!!

Think about it Joe. Some of these guys have professional reputations in academia to protect,not to mention grants and publishing opportunities. Some feed their families based on selling their expertise to others. This little mystery could generate a lot of interest, not to mention cash, for the folks who demonstrate that they're the vanguard of dwindling disease. The ivory tower crowd does not yield easily or gracefully to any threat to their livihood.

drobbins mapping project is way cool. I'll bet a $2 bill he gets a call.


As always, follow the money....


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

dwindling disease
hmm, has a nice ring to it (as long as it isn't happening to you)

Dave


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

drobbins sezs:
dwindling disease
hmm, has a nice ring to it

tecumseh adds:
first heard the term used in the middle 1960's... during the same time slot it was also commonly referred to as absconding disease. it generated some great rumors.

coyote sezs:
Think about it Joe. Some of these guys have professional reputations in academia to protect,not to mention grants and publishing opportunities.

tecumseh replies:
now coyote I am totally uninformed about the nature of bee-L, but I would suggest that the commercial bee keepers (especially those that move bees into florida) have much more at stake here than anyone in an academic role. for example informed sources here (texas) suggest that the california entry authoriites are being especially through on bees from the gulf coast states (mississippi thru florida).


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Hello All,

Bee-L has some great people on the list. Bob Harrison, Randy Oliver and Jerry B for example who are all willing to share the wealth of information they have on the syndrome, and also willing to listen to other points of view. 

But others have the addenda of wanting to restrict the list to PHDs and belittle particapation by others. But as Bob, Jerry and Randy seem to know, you cannot exclude the average beekeeper from any research, who often has the important knowledge of disease and symptoms needed to solve the problem.


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## David Stewart (Jan 22, 2005)

Please pardon my scepticism but I can't help but recall that this same "academia" and good old "USDA" are the same bunch that told us Kudzu and Serecia Lespedeza were good crops to plant..... I much prefer the input of folks on the ground who preface their comment with I'm not a scientist but what if...?

David


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

"I would suggest that the commercial bee keepers (especially those that move bees into florida) have much more at stake here than anyone in an academic role."

From the latest post on Bee-L:

"We are conducting this investigation via our small technology 
transfer business, rather than the university. As a private business, we have 
much more control over data, who gets it, and in what form; than we do under 
our University projects."

http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0612d&L=bee-l&T=0&P=7120

This would suggest that the impetus has moved into the commercial arena, and as such the issues of money and control of the information will certainly take precedence over pure research. If you read the entire post, you'll find that there's a substantial (read expensive) effort being mounted to get on top of this problem, including dispatching researchers across the country and the construction of what appears to be a substantial computerized database, all via a private business. I have no problem with private business taking the lead in solving this problem, and I hope that if they do that they're rewarded handsomly for their work. From what I've read, these are smart folks and are working hard. 

The original observation regarding ontrolling information stands....follow the money.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

On these periodic "bee die-offs", I'm a "militant
agnostic" . I don't know, and you don' either!









Such things have cropped up before, and each time,
the cause has turned out to be a "bad year" in
terms of nectar production or weather. Beekeepers
look for an outside agent, many advocate some pet
theory or another, but widespread looses have yet
to be linked to any specific proximate cause other
than weather/climate.

That said, I've yet to see any reports of drought
or other conditions in 2006 that might correlate
to the losses.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

"I don't know, and you don' either!"

I actually do know, but I'm holding out for a fat contract with the National Enquirer. I'll give you a hint though..... cattle mutilations and crop circles. It's all related.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> This would suggest that the impetus has moved 
> into the commercial arena, and as such the 
> issues of money and control of the information
> will certainly take precedence over pure 
> research.

Jerry Bromenshenk has that little company 
simply to get the funding that he never can
seem to get from traditional funding sources,
and Jerry would be very hurt to think that
anyone would suspect him of being anything
less than open with his findings on this and
that.

All this is for Jerry is a way for him to get 
some exposure for his hive monitoring gizmos, 
and perhaps prove that they can be of value as
diagnostic tools.

Jerry has never pretended to be a "bee disease"
guy, and is not known to posture or pose as
anything other than what he is. He has a very
slick little entrance-mounted bee counter, and
I bet he is hoping that deploying it will 
reveal something about the problem.

Do you know Jerry, Coyote?
You really should get to know a few people in
this very small community before you accuse them
of having agendas. Most all of them are kind and
gentle souls who would never even think of half
the paranoid stuff that beekeepers tend to imagine.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

"You really should get to know a few people in
this very small community before you accuse them
of having agendas."

The word "agendas" has a rather negative connotation. "Priorities" would be a better word. I don't assign any moral or ethical attributes to the process. It's just the way things work. Academics and businessmen have tremendous amounts of time and money invested in their careers and projects, and part of protecting that investment and generating funds for more research or business development includes guarding information and being first out of the gate with either publications, products, or services. 
No one should feel hurt over these observations. If he or anyone else feels offended, my sincere apoligies.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"But others have the addenda of wanting to restrict the list to PHDs and belittle particapation by others."

That's why I dropped it. As far as all these bees dying, it has to be something simiple that has been overlooked.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Academics and businessmen have tremendous 
> amounts of time and money invested in their 
> careers and projects, and part of protecting
> that investment and generating funds for more 
> research or business development 

Oh they do, do they?









So, answer the question - given that you seem
to think you have so much insight into what 
makes him tick, have you ever even _MET_ Jerry B?

Thought not.

So, you really haven't a clue, do you?

Here's a hint - if someone can make $10K
in a beekeeping-related business, they can
likely make $40K with the same investment
and effort doing anything else. _Anything_.

The fun thing is that in addition to the low
return on investment, they can enjoy having 
their motives and ethics (oh, excuuuse me -
we have backpedaled to "priorities" now)
questioned by random beekeepers.

What fun!


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

"So, you really haven't a clue, do you?"

I do now. 
Now I know that there's no competition at the highest levels of academia for research or program funding, and businessmen have no need to protect their investments of time and money. I was wrong, you're right. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Panhandle Bee man (Oct 22, 2003)

Amen Brother Jim!

It's one of the reasons to go state, and national meetings. You get to meet people like Jim, Jerry B. and host of others, and find out what their priorities are. You might be surprized


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

thank ya' jim and panhandle... wished I could have writ' that...

first off coyote there is very little beyond an easy publication that a pure academic will ever obtain from this problem. I can also say, with almost absolute certainty, that given the number of variable involved that the average beekeeper would never figure the problem out simply by relying on their own wits and resources. any pecuniary returns is (if past history shed any light on this process) based upon application alone. 

the real short term problem for academic research is that tradional sources of funds for attacking this kind of problem are now exhausted since we (that's us, as is us of a) have bought into the idea that we can eat at the very best resturant, order from the very top of the menu and send the check to 'that fellow' over at the other table.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>you cannot exclude the average beekeeper from any research, who often has the important knowledge of disease and symptoms needed to solve the problem.

I agree Joe! Sometimes the Academics dont realize the value of the front man,

But at the same time, what do we expect? This is what that fourm is orginized for.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

This thread started with the claim that Bee-L
was "censoring", a laughable accusation given
what is posted and circulated on Bee-L.

What happens is that the moderators simply
approve posts that seem well-written and
interesting, and decline to approve posts
that are not.

As for the claim that some shadowy unknown
group wants to "restrict the list to PHDs",
this is also laughable, as of the 600 some-odd
subscribers to Bee-L, a mere handful of those
who participate have any sort of academic 
credentials. The most active participants are
beekeepers, not academics.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--I agree Joe! Sometimes the Academics dont realize the value of the front man,--(Ian)

Hello Ian,
Yes indeed! But some are trying. You can look at Bee-L and see Jerry B pleading for the average beekeeper to discuss and contact him if you are seeing symptoms,, and others are discouraging it, belittling discussion from those talking about the syndrome, or telling us basically keep quiet and wait for the experts to figure it out. 

But thats Bee-L


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--This thread started with the claim that Bee-L
was "censoring", a laughable accusation given
what is posted and circulated on Bee-L.--(JF)

Yes, the statements by those being protected from challenge on Bee-L are quite laughable!









I still have not been able to get a single post thru challenging the Bill Trussels protected status and his statement:
If they are dying all along the coast, you can eliminate the weather since it certainly is not common in every location.(BT)

The fact that weather is different in every location is the very reason why it MUST be included until proven otherwise. IF you rule out the weather and its affects of forage, you cannot account for the varying symptoms from region to region associated with diagnosing and assessing the symptoms at the colony level. 

In personal emails with Jerry B, he states that researchers are actively investigating the potential that microclimatic events, are major contributors as the toppling stress (the final stress that topples the colony) in this syndrome.

So you see,,,
scientific procedure wants work, but Bee-L moderators by way of censorship, are supporting the views backed by those making assumptions and conjectures. I aggree! Laughable!


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Joe, a quick check shows that you've posted
262 messages to Bee-L that somehow made it
past the moderators, so why don't you just 
edit your most recent attempted submission to
use less passionate/inflammatory wording, and re-submit it?

Bill T. is not "protected" by anyone.
I've slapped him around several times,
as you will find if you check the archives.

To post so many messages, and then suddenly
start to claim "censorship" is just plain
nonsense.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>The fact that weather is different in every location is the very reason why it MUST be included until proven otherwise.

I agree. The fact that the weather might be different in different locations doesn't eliminate it as a factor in the syndrome.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--so why don't you just 
edit your most recent attempted submission to
use less passionate/inflammatory wording, and re-submit it?--(JF)

Hello Jim!

The point of this thread is to let beekeepers know that comments on the Bees Dying thread listed on Bee-L are not necessarily the views of all due to the apparent of lack of disagreement. 

My letter was first submitted in an edited down version, and is not aggressive in nature. Any more editing and it looses its substance. I am satisfied that I have circumvented censorship by posting the letter here on Bee source and do not wish to waste time on resubmitting. 

--To post so many messages, and then suddenly
start to claim "censorship" is just plain
Nonsense--(JF)

What is nonsense, is your definition of censorship.









Censorship does not mean 'NO speech', censorship means 'selectively restricting speech'.

My friend just back from a trip to China. Dozens of emails got thru to me except every email where he complained about the food, living conditions or poverty. So one could draw many comparisons between Bee-L selective censorship and that found in China.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I have no experience with Bee-L, however I have years of following a number of Profesional Publications, a medical background, a doctors degree which only means I have had the opportunity to forget more than the average person, and many years of applied science behind me.
Any of you who have read Jane Goodall's autobiography "Reason For Hope" may remember that she was selected by Dr Leaky for the project specificly because she had no formal education in the field, therefore no preconcieved ideas. She succeeded because information was made available to her when she felt she needed it.
I believe that censorship of scientific information for whatever reason in the greatest roadblock to progress that can exist.

Whatever happens or doesn't happen on Bee-L or any other site makes little differance as long as there is a location such as this forum where information can be exchanged freely. Ironicly, if information is being witheld in other areas, you can be certain that the same people who are censoring it are monitoring what goes on here and will take advantage of anything of value that is posted here. That is also ok, because the objective here, as I see it, is to pass information without restriction, and if it leads to a positive result who cares who gets the credit.
We do run the risk that incorrect<read something someone else doesn't agree with>information may be posted, but in life we all have to seperate the wheat from the chaff on our own. Lets just move on with sharing our ideas, debating them in a civilized manner, and learning what we can from it.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

To call what appears on Bee-L or BeeSource "science"
is perhaps the most entertaining thing I've heard
in a long while.

It is almost as funny to claim that BeeSource is
a forum where "_information can be exchanged 
freely_". Threads simply disappear here from
time to time. Rather Orwellian, in some cases.

So, while Bee-L practices "prior restraint", 
BeeSource is subjected to "revisionist history".

As far as the weather goes, it has been strange
this winter. Honey bees flying on Dec 21st at 
the New York Botanical Garden, for example.
Blooms indicating that some plants were being
fooled into reacting to a false spring just 
before Christmas. Me wandering around the coast
of NY, CT, and NJ in tee shirts.

Colonies are certain to be eating through stores
at a much higher rate as a result in these areas,
so feeding might be a good idea for East Coast
beekeepers.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--"Any of you who have read Jane Goodall's autobiography "Reason For Hope" may remember that she was selected by Dr Leaky for the project specificly because she had no formal education in the field, therefore no preconcieved ideas. She succeeded because information was made available to her when she felt she needed it." --(doug)--

Hello Doug!

What a Powerful and most excellent example of what I am trying to say! Nice work Doug! 

Is there a quote or quotes pertaining to this from the book Reason for Hope?
I would love to have the referenced quote it you would be so kind. Thanks!

[ December 30, 2006, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--As far as the weather goes, it has been strange this winter. 
,,,---Blooms indicating that some plants were being
fooled,,,--(JF)

What winter?

It was a rather strange year also. Most colonies in my area are rather shy a bit on stores going into winter. I dont mind the strange weather much now as far as bees are concerned. Many late dying honeybee colonies are providing a late source of nourishment for the others, and sparse dandelion bloom providing some pollen. One thing I fear is we dont want the early tree bloom to be fooled, which can be devastating to the spring buildup if three blooms get frozen.

--Colonies are certain to be eating through stores
at a much higher rate as a result in these areas,
so feeding might be a good idea for East Coast
beekeepers.--(JF)

We need a few nights in the teens or low twenties to trim off the old bees, this still hasnt happened yet in my area. This may happen from natural attrition, but when stores are a bit shy, this trimming off of bees can be beneficial.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

<Is there a quote or quotes pertaining to this from the book Reason for Hope?
I would love to have the referenced quote it you would be so kind. Thanks!>

I would look this up but we passed the book on to someone else this summer. Sorry. I think it is in about the third or fourth chapter.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

> Threads simply disappear here from time to time.

Yes they do, Jim. But not a single thread has been deleted where the subject had anything to do with bees.

As Doug said, "debating them in a civilized manner" is a key component to not having one's message edited or deleted. This is very different than BEE-L where a post will be determined by the moderators if it is "informed" or not before it will get sent to the list. I'm not knocking BEE-L, I once was one of those moderators and was a member of the list for many years, but I saw a need for a platform such as this to balance things out.

- Barry


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I read the postings on Bee-l from time to time and appreciate some well thought out submissions. I see many names there I see here. I have not submitted anything to the post as I find the site and the methods cumbersome. I know sometimes we here at Beesource feel the long bony finger of indignation pointed for throwing out alot of unsubstaniated information or non-scientific information and drawing conclusions from it. There's good value in research and what acadamia does but by it's nature it is a slow process. I think the quick exchange of information that takes place here from so many varied resources has more value to the beekeeper trying to survive in fast changing art/industry we are in. I need to make day to day decisions on keeping my bees alive, prouducts and every other area of my business. I'm able to gleen that information here and use it effectively and in real time. I have waded through the huge amount of information on the Bee losses here, look forward to Daves' Map information and have already formulated a base plan both for monitoring my hives and taking some preventive measures. Real time information, real time action. When the research comes out I'll read it and adjust my strategy.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Jim wrote this:
> Threads simply disappear here from time to time.

Then Barry responded with this: 
>Yes they do, Jim. But not a single thread has been deleted where the subject had anything to do with bees.

Now I write this:
The threads may be there someplace, but finding some of them from the past is, at times, next to impossible. I've made posts and have read those of others in the past and tried finding them two or three later using the search function, both the one on the forum itself and on the BeeSource web site. Sometimes they come up; sometimes they don't.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

The search function will be greatly improved with the new board. I am currently working on importing all the data from this board to the new one.

- Barry


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Jim wrote,
Threads simply diappear here from time to time.

Jim, you are right on the money, my first thread didn't make it to lunch. I re-wrote my thread and made it. It got locked down after a week, but not before I got my side of the story out. The beesource folks were very fair, that also goes for BEE-L, I've had the same good experience there too.
One thing I do know, whinning and complaining get us no where.

Keith Jarrett


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Keith Jarrett,,whinning and complaining,,,--

The point of my thread is to WARN that the information going un questioned in a thread I was participating in, such as the statement made on Bee-L to RULE OUT weather from the diagnoses of the bee kill event Does not mean others are in agreement with this!

Some lurkers that were reading the thread are asking in PMs why I am not responding to this claim made on the thread I was actively participating in. Well, I am responding to the letter, but censorship is preventing a cross examination of the statements made by the poster.


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

[The point of my thread is to WARN...]

That really isn't allowed here anymore. If you try to warn or question anything, most certainly one of our brothers here has to make it a pissing match and contort just anything you say into something nastier than you really meant. 

I think a few people on here need to make a new years resolution just to try to be a little nicer on these boards and respect people thoughts and questions. 

The attitude in many of these posts are getting really crappy, and think if I was just starting out and had to tangle with a bunch of the pompus comments I've read on here I'd find somewhere to be mentored. This beating up on each other and 'one ups' isn't benefiting anyone and just make you look like a bigger fool. 

Just because your a beekeeper doesn't excuse you from having some manners. 

I know that I speak for a lot of others, and a lot more lurkers that might not be so brave to tell you all so. 

If you still can't behave yourself and you insist on being jerks towards each other, maybe you could keep it to PMs between each other? (Then again, I guess its the public grandstanding that demonstrates your a better beekeeper?)

-Jeff


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>The attitude in many of these posts are getting really crappy

Do you really think so Jeff? I suppose you do since that's what you said, but I personally don't see all this strive and antagonism you talk about. Sure there's the occasional thread that gets a bit heated, but that's to be expected when people feel strongly about a topic. The folks involved invariably sort things out or at least agree to disagree and sometimes a thread just disappears but that happens rarely and is usually justified.

I see Beesource as a pretty well run, well-moderated forum. Then again, perhaps you feel I'm part of the problem! If that's the case, PM me please and let me know. It's certainly not my intention to alienate or offend anyone.

George-


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

It's a fine line between a debate and an argument. Without debate all ideas become dogma. With argument most ideas go no where. I find the best answer is if I don't like the music I just change the station for a while.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--The attitude in many of these posts are getting really crappy,--(Jeff)

Jeff,
-------change the station for a while.-------

Everybody gets this culture shock at first.
How long have you been on these sites? Are you a new guy? This is really a very minor disagreement compared to MANY others I have seen.

I can tell you that disagreements have been happening long before I came on the scene on these lists in 2001 and will continue. Im a free speech guy and reserve the right to voice concern. I also reserve the right to advise new bees to visit lists that are best for thier needs for beekeeping advice. 

If I may rephrase my comment to make you feel better:

[The point of my thread is to ADVISE!!,,,] 

Advising really IS allowed here!


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{This is really a very minor disagreement compared to MANY others I have seen.}

Joe, lets change disagreement to debate and yes it goes on here all the time. Once you get used to it and work within Barry's framework of debating respectully a good debate brings out considerable amount of usable information. It's hard to expect a couple thousand opinionated, independant people to not see things from different points of view. I think we do pretty well here, if you don't think so visit one of the political, gloves off, blogs and compare!


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Sure I can debate, but I reserve the right to disagree.


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

Agree to disagree. Then debate the subject.
A good foundation to build a country on.
Make sure to bring; fried(oops!baked)chicken, corn on the cob, mashed potatoes, green beans, iced tea and some homemade vanilla pound cake and I will be glad to disagree with you for several hours.


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

Debate is fine, even heated debate at times, but is this really important?


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