# Define 5 Frame Nuc



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Answer -- whatever you are willing to pay for. Five frames, bees, laying queen, in any configuration can be called a five frame nuc.


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## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

Sundance said:


> What exactly makes a legitimate 5 frame Nuc.
> 
> My understanding is:
> 
> ...


you and I are on the same page. what you have listed is what I look for in a 5 frame nuc.


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

*nuc's*

Sounds like a good nuc to me. I have bought nuc's with only 2 frames of brood though. If they have a young queen that's laying, and are mite free and disease free,they will build up fast. Jack


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

brooksbeefarm said:


> I have bought nuc's with only 2 frames of brood though. If they have a young queen that's laying, and are mite free and disease free,they will build up fast. Jack


I hear you Jack. For me personally, when I pull Nucs I always
go with 2 frames and a fresh queen.

This is more of a curiosity about the variation in
them.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When making up nucs, usually starting in March in SAC, I start out w/ 2 frames of brood, a frame of honey and pollen and either two frames of foundation or one frame of foundation and one frame of empty comb. Usually by the time it is time to take them north the frames of foundation are mostly drawn out and the queen is laying wherever she can. It's not unusual for these nucs to be almost 5 frames of brood w/ honey also, by May.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sundance said:


> This is more of a curiosity about the variation in them.


Since you are asking about an organic living organism there will always be variation in their makeup depending on many variables, such as how the nuc was built to begin w/, the weather and abundance of or lack of nectar and pollen.

Are you asking about what you should accept as a customer or what you should provide for sale as a nuc producer?

I think that if you have a 5 frame nuc that is full of bees, w/ a laying queen, a frame or two of honey and brood in all stages on three or more combs. But I've hived nucs w/ less brood that did just fine at honey production. I'm more apt than not to hear that the nucs that I sold to someone made them a crop of honey.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Sundance said:


> What exactly makes a legitimate 5 frame Nuc.


Five frames in a soggy, cardboard nuc box. 

1 with broken, sagging foundation.
1 moth eaten black comb with a mouse hole in the bottom corner
1 wavy comb with a big drone patch in the middle, and some nectar and pollen on one side.
1 comb with scattered brood and chalk, and drones, and a skinny little queen and a pound and a half of old, shiny bees.
1 honey comb, crystallized, hard as a rock.

And a cardboard strip, and a beer coaster, and something else that's quite undefinable.

Been there, seen it, could point a finger right as we speak. If beekeepers continue to buy it, they'll continue to sell it.

Each one teach one.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

sqkcrk said:


> Are you asking about what you should accept as a customer or what you should provide for sale as a nuc producer?


My fault, I should have been clear. I am talking about
Nuc's for sale. I would think the definition should be the
same for a producer or customer. (I know, nothing is
standard in bees...)


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

Michael Palmer said:


> Five frames in a soggy, cardboard nuc box. ...


Well put! The problem is that new beeks don't know any better and it seems that there's always someone willing to take their money in the way you describe. Therein lies the value of clubs, Beesource, and a local mentor.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

*Your looking at it all wrong*

The advantage of a nuc has nothing to do with the number of frames or what is in them. The advantage is in that they are a few weeks ahead of a package and the queen is proven. Cost wise they are about the same as a package. If you buy a 3 frame, 4 frame, or 5 frame the cost is about the same also. If I sell a nuc with 5 frames and two of the frames are empty and just spacers to keep the other frames in place during handling it is still a 5 frame nuc. If I take frame exchange I get 5 empty frames, not five drawn frames with so much honey, so much brood etc. Just like a nuc you can get a poor package with a queen that is sub-par or even rejected the minute she is released. If somebody wanted to through five fames in a nuck box and throw a package in too and somebody else wanted to buy it....it would be a nuc.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

I think your definition of a 5 frame nuc is right Sundance.
One of the advantages that a nuc has over a package is relative time as an established colony which secures a normal expansion with no risk of queen rejection, typical problem for the packages. 
Everytime that you introduce a queen on a colony of bees, even a small one like nuc, you run the risk of queen rejection. When this risk has gone and the queen accepted the other risk is queen performance, some queens never do anything.
My point is that the longer the nuc has been established, queen excepted and performing, more that small colony gets closer to what a nuc should be.
Basically the risk of introduction and a certain risk of performance are taken from the seller.
This is the reason that an overwintered nuc is the ultimate nuc.

A nuc put in a hurry, a queen introduced, probably released and sold with no time to proper evaluation has no advantage over a package.


Gilman


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

a four frame nuc (plus the most important ingredient a newly minted queen) + or - one frame depending on how fast the nuc is coming along and how long you expect the nuc to set there before someome picks it up. variation in any number of quantities means all nucs are not created equal. sometime you may need to exchange a frame of brood for one with foundation just to keep the unit from swarming, since the internal space of a nuc is so small.

people may well price 3, 4 and 5 frames nucs at the same dollar amount. anyone that thought that all of these were of equal value likely needs to put back on their thinking cap.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

So basically you are saying that if you made up a nuc...it din't get picked up on time and was busting at the seams at pickup you would either 1. charge more for said nuc, or 2. cut it down a frame in order to charge the quoted price for said nuc? 

You may have your thinking cap on, but it most certianly needs some settings adjusted


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> If I sell a nuc with 5 frames and two of the frames are empty and just spacers to keep the other frames in place during handling it is still a 5 frame nuc. -bluegrass


It may technically be a "5-frame nuc." But if two of the frames are simply serving as spacers, I would argue that it's really a three-frame nuc in a five-frame box. It wouldn't be as valuable in my estimation, and I wouldn't be willing to pay as much for it.

Could I sell you a box with only enough room for three frames in it with bees and stores on those frames, and hand you two spare frames at the same time, and sell it as a "five-frame nuc?"

To take the example a little farther, if you bought an "established hive" that had a frame of honey and a frame of brood, and all the other frames were simply foundation, would you really consider it a "full hive?"

Or, if you bought a "three-pound package" that included the weight of the box and the weight of the can of syrup in the three-pound total (meaning that you would almost certainly get less than one pound of actual bees), would you feel that you're getting a fair deal?

To me, a five-frame nuc can vary somewhat, but I expect to get three to four frames of brood and bees with one to two frames of stores. Sundance's description fits very well what I expect to find in a five-frame nuc.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sundance said:


> My fault, I should have been clear. I am talking about
> Nuc's for sale. I would think the definition should be the
> same for a producer or customer. (I know, nothing is
> standard in bees...)


Well, as a producer I produce nucs for my own use and if someone wants to buy one or more we pick out a number of them that are to their satisfaction and they take them home in their own equipment or promise to bring back my empty boxes. If I'm delivering a number of nucs to a buyer I'll take them a couple more than they asked for just in case there is a queenless one or two or if there are a few w/out a good amount of brood and bees. Once a nuc is made I tend to try to leave it in the box, once it has been checked for quality. Too much handling is detrimental, as I'm sure you know.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

t:


I'd rather this thread not change into a "Nuc vs Pkg"
discussion. That horse has been beaten,

The reason I started the thread was to illustrate the
wide range of definitions of what makes a "5 Frame Nuc"

I reallize that there are darn few standards in beekeeping.
But it seems to me that in this arena, there ought to be at
least some minimal standards or understanding of what makes
a salable, fair, Nuc.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> I'd rather this thread not change into a "Nuc vs Pkg"
> discussion. -Sundance


I agree, and I hope that your comment wasn't caused by my post. I realize that I'm the one who mentioned a package, but really as an illustration that standard expectations exist despite some variations.

To me, a five-frame nuc is three to four frames of brood and bees (with a laying queen) with one to two frames of stores.

I would gladly accept five frames of brood and bees and a laying queen as a five-frame nuc.

I would gladly purchase two frames of brood and bees and a laying queen and a frame of stores as a three-frame nuc.

I would not be willing to pay as much for a three-frame nuc as I would for a five-frame nuc.

And I would consider two frames of brood and bees and a laying queen and a frame of stores and two frames of foundation (used as spacers) a "three-frame nuc."


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And I think we have done so. A saleable, fair 5 frame nuc would have two outside frames w/ honey on the outside of those frames, honey and brood on the insides of those frames, the three innermost frames would have brood in all stages w/ pollen above and honey above that, a laying queen and loads of adult bees covering the combs. And, of course, no AFB, EFB or any other bee disease or pests to the best of the producers abilities. There is no reason that there should be any disease present in any nucs.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Kieck said:


> It may technically be a "5-frame nuc." But if two of the frames are simply serving as spacers, I would argue that it's really a three-frame nuc in a five-frame box.* It wouldn't be as valuable in my estimation,* and I wouldn't be willing to pay as much for it.
> 
> Could I sell you a box with only enough room for three frames in it with bees and stores on those frames, and hand you two spare frames at the same time, and sell it as a "five-frame nuc?"
> 
> To take the example a little farther, if you bought an "established hive" that had a frame of honey and a frame of brood, and all the other frames were simply foundation, would you really consider it a "full hive?"


Honey run is getting $110.00 for three frame nucs this year, so apparently some think that loosing those two extra frames adds value.

No, the three frame nuc with two extra frames is still a three frame nuc. Just like a five frame nuc with 5 extra frames would not be a full hive. On the otherhand if the person selling and the person buying agree on a deal over a full hive with two frames drawn out and the rest foundation and they cal it a full hive...it is a full hive.

If you buy a nuc and transfer it the same day into a 10 frame box would you continue to call it a nuc? Or would it then be added to your hive count? The line is very very fine. If you did still call it a nuc at what point in time would you consider it a full hive?

I don't think this is anything that can be spelled out in black and white....It is a nuc if you sell it as such.


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

*nuc's*

Apples & Oranges, Myself I would reather buy a nuc with 2 or 3 frames of brood and eggs, all the others with honey and pollen except one. I would prefer one frame of foundation that the bees are working on,this shows me this is a working hive and they are not crowded with swarming on their mind. When selling a nuc I show them, or tell them what I know about the (nuc or nuc's) and let them make up their minds. I try to help the new beekeeper as much as I can, The hardened beekeepers know what they want.But I do this to make a little extra money,I don't do it for a living. That's the only thing I've found good about being retired and older..Jack


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> Honey run is getting $110.00 for three frame nucs this year, so apparently some think that loosing those two extra frames adds value. -bluegrass


Sure, but how much is he getting for five-frame nucs?



> The line is very very fine. -bluegrass


It certainly can be.

But I would feel cheated if I paid for what I believed to be a five-frame nuc and found only two frames of brood and bees and a frame of honey. And I would feel that I was cheating a customer if I attempted to sell the same as a "five-frame nuc."



> I don't think this is anything that can be spelled out in black and white. -bluegrass


Right. The important consideration is that the buyer and seller reach an agreement that's suitable to both.

Having said that, if I make arrangements to purchase a five-frame nuc from another beekeeper, I expect to find something very similar to Sundance's original description or sqkcrk's description in this thread, or some slight variation on one of theose descriptions. Too much deviation from one of those, and I wouldn't be likely to do future business with that seller.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Kieck said:


> Sure, but how much is he getting for five-frame nucs?


Oh..I read his ad wrong....he is selling 6 + 3 frame nucs in a 10 frame box for 110... Not sure what is up with that configuration? 

Anyway as long as buyer and seller are in agreement on what they are getting I think it doesn't matter what you call a Nuc. 3, 4, or 5 frames all cost about the same no matter who you get them from. 

I have sold Nucs to several members on here and on beemasters and I think all are happy with what they got. I have heard nothing, but good things about the Nucs I have sold. I cannot guarantee a frame or two of stores in any Nuc I sell because my bees have not just come back from the orange blossoms and it is too early for them to have put up a frame of stores up by late April here....

Reading back through this thread I wonder if all this talk about selling nucs has triggered the governments spybots


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

We make ours up with 2 frames capped brood, one open brood, one frame food, and one frame to grow on and a queen cell. By the time the queen is mated and the unit is ready for sale much of the brood is hatched and the 5th frame is actively being worked.

If one had a lot of lead and flow time before the pick up date or delivery they could be made with 2 brood and one food and allowed to expand until the delivery date. I have seen nucs expand so fast that they had to be cut back before delivery to prevent swarming. Once that 5th frame is packed out they must be installed or cut back by a frame very soon or they will end up hanging in the trees.

I also feel it is better to used a mix of open and capped brood so that the age demographics are more balanced.


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

My opinion is that in order to qualify for a five frame nuc, the nuc must have one frame of honey, three frames of brood, and another frame of eggs, or brood, plus a young queen (generally pollen is mixed in there somewhere). But I'll add that these things do not make a quality nuc. Even if a nuc has these things they may not have enough bees to take care of all that brood, and thus some will parish. In order to make a quality nuc reguardless of the mix of honey/brood, the nuc should have enough bees to cover all the brood even if the cluster must tighten up a little when the temp drops.

I would take more young nurse bees and one less frame of brood any day of the week.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Bees to cover the brood is a given, otherwise it is not a working nuc. 4 frames of brood (counting eggs as brood) and bees and a frame of honey with a working queen will not last very long in a 5 frame box without becoming overcrowded, especially if it is very warm with a decent flow on, so timing is key.


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## Show-me (Aug 3, 2007)

Is a overwintered colony in a 5 frame nuc considered the same fee as a freshly made nuc or does it go for a premium?


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Some would place a premium, others would say the queen is half worn out. It depends on when the nuc was made and history of the queen. Also what time of the year makes a difference. Very early proven nucs can be desirable due to pollination demand.

All in all, as long as the queen is working well I would tend towards wanting fresh over last years queens unless I needed them now.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

I think that the overwintered nuc is the ultimate nuc and should be sold for a premium. The reason is simple; proven record.
If we agree that there is no such think like 100% in nature, not all the nucs we produce will be worth selling and keeping, the nucs made in the spring lack the time to prove themselves. 
- The queen reared in the previous summer is confined by time and space in the overwintered nuc and there is no risk of "burning out".
- In the North East, the winter is the big Selector, if overwintered nuc survives the winter, that should be a big indicator. The strong survives, the weak dies. The nucs made in the summer that are able to grow and have enough store to survive the winter have no other reasons not to bee top hives in the next season

- The full potentials of a queen reared in the summer can only be seen in the next spring (Brother Adams), it takes time for a queen to fully mature, take months, that is why most of the nucs that survive the winter take off very fast in the spring, give you not less honey that the big colonies, less swarming that the big hives, less varroa than the big hives and enter their second winter in a better shape than the big hives.
To me, when talking about queens, the word "fresh" does not mean the same as in the one used for Fish. To me means not mature and unproven. A queen from an overwintered nuc is like 21 day dry aged steak.
Larry Connor talks a lot about the time it takes the queen to bee fully mature.


Gilman


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

I agree with Bleta. But I'll also add that in addition to proving themselves, a queen that is mated in late summer usually has more drones to mate with, therefore will end up as the better queen. And I also agree that overwintering her in a nuc keeps her from burning out.

For these same reasons, my plans this year are to raise my queens in the late summer, and make nucs to overwinter. I'll still order new queens for nuc customers who would prefer them, but I will place a higher price on nucs that overwinter with a queen that was mated the previous summer.


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## Da Yooper (Apr 13, 2004)

We ordered five frame nucs from Indian Summer Honey farm and this is how they describe them on their website:



> In our nucleus hives we endeavor to have at least three full frames of brood, a nice frame of honey and a fifth frame that is light honey, brood or pollen. You can expect to begin to make a nice crop of honey with a nucleus hive almost immediately.


When I spoke to them they also informed me that the queen would be marked.

This is what I (a complete new-bee) would expect to get when ordering a five frame nuc. It sounds like a great way to start a hive. However, now we are considering going with med sized hives and possibly small cell foundation (see post).

Hope this helps a little for the original poster.

In His Peace,
Fred


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Da Yooper said:


> We ordered five frame nucs from Indian Summer Honey farm and this is how they describe them on their website:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Everybody will have different advice on this. 

My opinion; given your locatiuon is that you should find a local source of nucs. Indian summer is a migrator so the nucs you will be getting in the spring will be freshly back from florida...that is quite a climate change and I feel the bees will do better and have a better chance of making it through your first winter if you buy locally or at least from an outfit that is not stressing them out by moving them around the country.


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Absolutely! You should get them from a cold climate.....like where I live! :lookout:


Seriously though, I think it is a bad practice to tell a new beekeeper that they can expect to make a honeycrop almost immediately. There are just to many variables. It is true that quality nucs will likely create a honey crop in a decent year, but there is no garrantees with beekeeping. I would rather tell a new beekeeper that they may produce a honey crop, so be ready, but expect to let them keep all their honey if the year is not so good. Plain and simply, I just don't like people who hype their product to get a sale. I find that more people are willing to purchase from me if I answer their questions honestly and give them realistic expectations instead of setting them up for a disappointment. I don't hype my product to be super bees, and I believe that doing so is unethical and dishonest.

Bees are mearly an asset. If you are in need of more, then buy nucs, or packages. If you intend to produce a honeycrop and still need to increase your numbers, I find that making your own nucs with seven frames of brood to be the best method.

Ok..end rant


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I think some of the ideas about needing bees from colder climates for winter survival are a bit overrated. I've had good luck overwintering bees from Georgia and California and Texas in South Dakota. I've had just as good luck (but no better) overwintering bees from South Dakota in South Dakota.

And look at New World Carniolans, touted by many for their overwintering abilities. The breeding program is based in California now. Russian bees, similarly touted for winter survival, were initially imported into and bred out of Louisiana.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Kieck said:


> And look at New World Carniolans, touted by many for their overwintering abilities. The breeding program is based in California now. Russian bees, similarly touted for winter survival, were initially imported into and bred out of Louisiana.


Both the russians and carniolans are originally from cold climates (Russia and Slovenia) so it is to be expected that they would do well in cold climates, even if they are coming from warm climates.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> Both the russians and carniolans are originally from cold climates (Russia and Slovenia) so it is to be expected that they would do well in cold climates, even if they are coming from warm climates.


As far as that goes, Italians, a breed that originated in the Medeteranian region, has wintered well in the northern parts of the U.S. and Canada. At least up until the last 20 years.

Winter stores and appropriate brood production during the short day light season probably have more to do w/ wintering ability than anything else, barring ventilation, diseases and pests.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Not trying to divert this thread, but I think we've got a little of a double standard going here.

On one hand, we've got the presumption that races of bees originally from northern latitudes have retained their cold survival traits.

On the other, we've got a presumption that "local" bees have adapted to their particular climates fairly quickly (within the last few decades or so).

I don't think we can have it both ways. Bees can't be so adaptable to climate, yet not adapt to climate in the same type of way.

I'll add to what sqkcrk wrote: Italians or stocks derived from Italians do quite well at overwintering here, given enough stores for winter. So do other strains. More seems to depend on other factors than on race or strain, in my experience.


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## Da Yooper (Apr 13, 2004)

bluegrass said:


> Everybody will have different advice on this.
> My opinion; given your locatiuon is that you should find a local source of nucs.


This is something I've really been considering. I haven't had too much luck locating a source. In the mean time I have cancelled my order this morning and we are going to step back a bit and take another look at what we are doing.

Thanks for the thoughts.

In His Peace,
Fred


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Not really a double standard. In my original response I was refering to the shock of moving bees from Florida to Wisconsin in April as being a stressor. I advised that he/she find a local source to avoid the migrator stress factor.... 

You morphed it into the southern suppliers bees that you have experience in doing fine in northern climates and brought up two species that are known to do well in northern climates. 

In turn I pointed out that these breed lines do better in northern climates because they are from northern climates.

So now we made a full circle and apparently missed eachother points.....

So... My point was based on the migration factor...calafornia one week, florida for the winter and then back to Wisconsin in early spring and then split into nuc.

Your point: Breeders are in souther climates and their bees do fine in northern climates. The difference is the breeder did not just move his bees 3000 miles north before splitting them from full hives into small nucs and giving them a new queen.

As far as the Italian, Carniola, Russian and even throw german in there is you want....the latter three generally do better in northern climates than the Italians do.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

If you live in a cold weather it is just normal to select from bees that have the same climate or colder. I do stress "select", not every hive from colder climates will do good in cold weather, my job as a beekeeper is to try to identify those that winter better, have nice and central clusters, require less attention and so on.
I personally don't know the time and the mechanism of the cold weather adaptations but from my experience I believe that if you constantly try to select from the top hives that you overwinter you will do better.

Have you ever thought that why hundreds of thousands of packages from warmer weather are shipped every year in colder climates. 
If they do well and survive there should not be a need for bees next year yet the numbers are constant.
I will bet you that we all be in a better shape if every beekeeper breads from their best stock and overwinter their bees where they are.

As far as Carniolans, the mechanisem of their sucesfull overwitnering is simple, smaller cluster, less food cunsumtion and faster expention in the spring.
We should practise what works for us. 

Gilman


Kieck said:


> I think some of the ideas about needing bees from colder climates for winter survival are a bit overrated. I've had good luck overwintering bees from Georgia and California and Texas in South Dakota. I've had just as good luck (but no better) overwintering bees from South Dakota in South Dakota.
> 
> And look at New World Carniolans, touted by many for their overwintering abilities. The breeding program is based in California now. Russian bees, similarly touted for winter survival, were initially imported into and bred out of Louisiana.


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> Five frames in a soggy, cardboard nuc box.
> 
> 1 with broken, sagging foundation.
> 1 moth eaten black comb with a mouse hole in the bottom corner
> ...


ROTFLMAO

THAT is one of the funniest bee related posts I've seen.


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## Jon L (Dec 29, 2007)

I bought nucs from three places last year.Six overwintered carniolans nucs from CT.Twenty Italian nucs made in GA around March and brought to Maine in May.And ten nucs five Italian and five Carniolans made up in Bunkie LA and brought to Massachusetts in May.

The Italians from GA did the best at drawing wax and filling it with honey.

The overwintered Carniolans from CT came in a close second.

The five Carniolians and five Italians made up in LA did poorly.None of them drew out more than two deeps.

All of these were five frame deep nucs with 3+ frames of brood and a frame or two of honey.
If I found an undrawn frame of foundation I would feel cheated.

The Italian nucs from GA had a head start because they had two months of spring flow to build up on(some had 4 frames of brood) before being trucked to Maine.

They dont look stressed to me  http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj21/hyptno99/DSC00252.jpg

Mortality this winter has been about the same for all and its been -25F some nights this year.

Buy local overwintered if you can but dont stress if you can only find a spring nuc from the south .
You can requeen with a northern queen in the summer if you want.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

kieck writes:
I think some of the ideas about needing bees from colder climates for winter survival are a bit overrated. I've had good luck overwintering bees from Georgia and California and Texas in South Dakota. I've had just as good luck (but no better) overwintering bees from South Dakota in South Dakota.

tecumseh:
pure hype I would suggest. 

one need only review in one's mind that the 'races' of bees (as we know them) used commercially in the us of a got to be races by being isolated in valleys during a series of ICE AGES in the most distant past. this is not to suggest that individuals within these larger groups may not thrive in very cold temperature environments (and the same may be quite true in more arid climates).

I would suspect (don't absolutely know, since I ain't no yankee beekeeper and don't plan to cross that line) that above some latitude the overwintering knowledge and skill of the beekeeper are much more important than the kind of bee you desire to raise.

I would suggest two higher priority concerns for most beekeepers in regard to stock selection would be: 1) the purpose for having bees and 2)the kind of flow of a given location (constant or punctuated).


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> In turn I pointed out that these breed lines do better in northern climates because they are from northern climates.
> 
> As far as the Italian, Carniola, Russian and even throw german in there is you want....the latter three generally do better in northern climates than the Italians do.


Speculation or fact? Show me the data, please. 

My bees travel from NY to SC every year for the last 15, so I doubt that I really have much of what I started out w/ 15 years ago. Are they northern bees that winter in the south or southern bees that summer in the north, and what does it matter? The folks who buy my nucs, and keep them in NY all year around, haven't reported a need to replace any more than I do every spring. I buy Italian and Carniolan queens or cells mostly. Or whatever is handy and affordable.


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## Da Yooper (Apr 13, 2004)

bluegrass said:


> So... My point was based on the migration factor...calafornia one week, florida for the winter and then back to Wisconsin in early spring and then split into nuc.
> 
> Your point: Breeders are in souther climates and their bees do fine in northern climates. The difference is the breeder did not just move his bees 3000 miles north before splitting them from full hives into small nucs and giving them a new queen.


Since I brought Indian Summer's name into this forum I just wanted to clear up a couple of things. First, they make their nucs in Florida and make a special trip (nucs only) to Wisconsin in early may to supply their customers. They are well established nucs.

Also, they were very friendly, patient and helpful to a new-bee.

Just wanted to make sure their name is not missrepresented on my account.

Thanks,
Fred


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I don't think you should have canceled that order, Da Yooper. I think those bees would do fine in your location. And, for someone just starting out, I think you're likely to see higher-than-average losses for your first winter or two anyway.

Don't let the ol' curmudgians on BeeSource and our infernal differences of opinions get to you.

For others reading, most bees in this country go south for the winters. That doesn't mean that those bees _can't_ survive northern winters, just that beekeepers see an advantage to taking them south (earlier spring build-up, possible early sales of nucs/packages/queens, pollination contracts, extended honey production seasons, etcetera).


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Told you everybody on here would have a different opinion on this

I think in the near future we will see a federal ban on interstate migration of bees... I think CCD will be linked to it and that will be the end of that. The bee industry does not have the lobby power to prevent it from happening.

Sqk... I will get you that journal article as soon as I can log into ebscohost. The server is down, maybe related to the ice storm or something.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Larry Connor had a good article on the Feb 09 number of Bee Culture.

Gilman


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> The bee industry does not have the lobby power to prevent it from happening. -bluegrass


They don't?

Even if coupled with lobbying power from the almond industry? And other pollination interests?

And who has the lobbying power to introduce legislation to ban interstate migration of bees?

What would that do to package producers? And queen suppliers?


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

Personally I think the use of 5 frame nuc or 3 frame nuc a misnomer. The nuc is really the hive isn't it. So a 10 frame lang deep had 10 frames and is a certain dimension. The 5 frame nuc can hold 5 frames, right? The problem arises that we are buying bees with the nuc box. We should be asking the supplier of said nuc what we are getting as far as bees, brood and foundation goes. I would rather have 2 empty frames inside the box for the same price as a 3 frame nuc. I look at it as buying a house, both are same price one is 30x30 the other is 30x50. I would pay a bit more for the 5 frame nuc than the 3 frame in this case but not much more. If you are planning to immediately move the nuc and you allready have bees you might want to buy 2 frames of brood, some bees and a queen and use your own stores (since you are going to move it immediately) and pay less.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

"Nuc" is beekeeper shortened slang for "nucleus."

When you buy a nuc, you're buying the nucleus of a colony. A mated and laying queen, a workforce of worker bees, some eggs and larvae and pupae, some honey, some pollen, and the wax foundation for all of this.

With frame exchange and transfer to your own equipment (like many nuc sellers specify), all that you're really buying is the drawn comb, honey and pollen, bees, brood and queen. If that takes up three frames, it's a three-frame nuc. If it takes up five, it's a five-frame nuc.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

bleta12 said:


> Larry Connor had a good article on the Feb 09 number of Bee Culture.
> 
> Gilman


What is the article about? I don't get Bee Culture in print form and still can't log into ebsco... I emailed them, but no response:scratch: 

I also emailed Dr Spivak because I think she wrote the article I am trying to find again...No word from her yet either.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

it is about management on a small operation.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Speculation or fact? Show me the data, please.


Dr Spivak emailed me back and says. "carniolans are best suited for the north, other species do okay if properly prepard for winter"


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

bleta12 said:


> To me, when talking about queens, the word "fresh" does not mean the same as in the one used for Fish. To me means not mature and unproven. A queen from an overwintered nuc is like 21 day dry aged steak.
> 
> 
> Gilman


Thanks for that... I was a little thrown by the newly minted queen suggestion someone made a few posts back. Some of us plan on selling an overwintered nucs for the first time, and we were not going to put a new queen in there, since this girl who is in there did so well over the winter, why get rid of her. 
PS Kudos to VP Queens for how well his have performed in this method.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

winevines said:


> Some of us plan on selling an overwintered nucs for the first time, and we were not going to put a new queen in there, since this girl who is in there did so well over the winter, why get rid of her.


Karla, read Bro Adam's "Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey." He says that queens are best the year after their mating.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> Karla, read Bro Adam's "Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey." He says that queens are best the year after their mating.


Bleta12's suggeston was enough to convince me, but I have been meaning to read it (especially since our club meets at a monastery) and just ordered the book from Amazon.


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