# Super box making on the commercial level



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We glue just the top and bottom fingers of each joint. We like to see the joints tight enough so that it takes a little tapping with a hammer together with the pressure from the jig to seat them properly.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

For a finger joint I consider glue is not necessary. It does not hurt either but in comparison to the joint itself what it adds is insignificant.

A slip fit is no doubt easier to work with. it is also not a properly constructed box joint. If I do not have to assemble my boxes with the use of a mallet. I did not get the joints right. You could very well take my boxes once the pieces are assembled and use them. no nails no glue no nothing. In fact I have at times. At least temporary since the garbage wood that hives are typically made of will shrink with time and the joints will loosen up.

Think of it this way. the easier a joint is to assemble the easier it will disassemble. Is it more effective to spend a little more time on every joint you make or to have to rebuild boxes in a few years because the old ones failed?

I will in fact make real crappy easy fast joints on boxes that are intended to sell bees in. those boxes are not intended to last so they are not built to last.

In all the right joint is the one you want for the reasons you want it.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We glue top and bottom joints because we have seen separation of some joints beginning 10+ years after the fact. Boxes are subjected to a myriad of different environments in their lifetime. Glue is really, really cheap and only takes a few moments. Just do it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't assemble the number of boxes Jim appears to, he referenced using a jig, but when I assembled 200 medium boxes this year I glued every joint. I own quite a few boxes which must not have been glued because I can easily take them apart.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't assemble the number of boxes Jim appears to, he referenced using a jig, but when I assembled 200 medium boxes this year I glued every joint. I own quite a few boxes which must not have been glued because I can easily take them apart.


All the better. And yes I have seen the same thing. We renail some older equipment that otherwise appears sound to squeeze a few more years out of them. One of the things you readily see in running an operation that was first begun in the early 30's is the effects of the ravages of time on bee equipment.......and beekeepers too for that matter. . Spending a bit more initial time doing things right is time well spent.


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

I think that Jim and sqkcrk have pretty much confirmed that building it right the first time saves time and money in the long run. I also glue and nail or staple each box, what is the old saying, "Do it right the first time".


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I only have a couple dozen boxes between me and my brother since we can't seem to get very many hives in operation, but I am a scientist, so I'll weigh in here.

Properly preserved boxes (that is, well painted, no leaks) will last decades. Wood does not rot if it's kept dry. Box joints properly nailed have worked very well for making bee hives for many, many years, and glue that was of any value has only been around for a short time in comparison. Certainly my Grandpa never used glue -- all he had available was hide glue (animal gelatin), a material that is essentially fungus food if damp. 

Urea/formaldehyde glues became available in the late 30's, but are of no use without a curing oven, and the aliphatic resin glues like Elmer's white glue were not waterproof until the late 70's. The aliphatic resin glues we call Carpenter's glue isn't terribly water resistant.

Today we have the luxury of using glues that can withstand weathering indefinitely, and it's pretty silly not to use them to seal the box joints in bee boxes. Tight joints -- those that must be tapped together -- are better than loose slip fit, but you must remember that wood expands and contracts with humidity changes, so what is tight in one season may be looser at another since to two pieces of wood are never going to be perfectly identical.

I like the boxes I make to fit together with a firm push, not tight enough for a mallet because I don't want splits to start at the base of the fingers, and I want enough glue to stay in the joint to seal it from water. Unless you use a jig, it's going to be necessary to square each box and check for racking as they are nailed up, wood moves and even expensive "clear" commercially made boxes will have some distortion as the water content of the wood changes. This is why you should put the "crown" of the pieces IN -- as the wood shrinks and expands with water content changes, it moves much more along the grain than across the growth rings, so you want the top and bottom to push together rather than push apart. This is because the top and bottom joints will always have a surface where water can wick in between the boxes, it's fairly critical that those joints be tight and waterproof. The joints in the center are less likely to leak.

Glue and nails should give you a very strong box that will last as long as you keep the wood from rotting. Slip fit joints should be filled with Titebond III or equivalent glue and the whole joint should be kept completely watertight either with glue of with paint. Yeah, it's a bit more hassle to use glue, but a box that lasts 40 years with a bit of care is better than one that barely makes 5 before there are rot holes at the corners. 

My brother has some deeps that are going on ten years old now. Properly assembled and painted, we are going to rotate them out this year and re-paint as the paint is starting to show signs of wear. Only other damage is from wax moths drilling into the wood to pupate, another story. Painting them all every seven or eight years is work, but much cheaper than tossing boxes due to rot. A gallon of high quality exterior latex is around 30 dollars retail (cheaper in 5 gallon pails) and should coat at least 24 deeps as I paint (not necessarily an accurate measurement), so that's less than a dollar a box. Probably a dollar apiece for labor, maybe less if you use a sprayer to paint with, but figure the difference in labor and materials to replace rather than glue, nail and paint. Glue becomes pretty cheap.

Peter


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We do not glue, but do use the best nails we can find, U.S.A. made Maze double dipped galvanized 7 penny box. We like them so much we bought the remaining inventory when we heard they ware discontinued.

Jim, we are replacing roofs, and reusing the galvanized steel, alot with a paper from the late '30s in them.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If you come across one of those lids w/ a crossword puzzle filled out keep it. Bees are more amazing than we commonly think.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

They have to fit tight enough that the boys can put them together right. If they don't put them together right it will be there problem in ten years. Yes the handles go on the outside.:ws:


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

what is wrong with a single Rabbet box loaded with Titebond 3 and Galvanized staples ?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

nuttin


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I keep wondering if there is a good/smart way to use pocket screws to build/assemble boxes.

I say this because I recently got a pocket screw jig...and to a man with a hammer, every problem is solved by banging in a nail 

deknow


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ben Little said:


> what is wrong with a single Rabbet box loaded with Titebond 3 and Galvanized staples ?


When I built my own boxes, I did just that. Still holding as tight as I built them. I have found a guy that builds them and dips for a great price.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Screws are too complex. A wedge wrapped around a cone? What's up w/ that? Give me a spike and a hammer any day.

Besides, my limited imagination and limited woodworking training tells me that screwing into end grain ain't the best thing to do to wood. But, if it works for ya, go ahead. I just don't see it becoming the norm on a commercial scale when staple guns are known to be faster. We are talkin' Commercial here, ya know.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Mark, have you ever used a pocket screw jig? I ask this as someone who never had before a few weeks ago. It is a revelation on par with my first encounter with pneumatic nail/staple guns.

They have pluses and minuses.

My understanding is that box joints are used mostly as way to make the box "self jigging" for assembly. ...rabbited joints work fine as well, but require a good setup for proper assembly.

My thinking is that pocket screws fall somewhere in between wrt self jigging ability and ease of manufacture.

Box joints always require squaring...pocket screws will pull perpendicular surfaces tight and square....perfect for gluing a butt or rabbited joint.

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Wouldn't know one if I stumbled over it. Probably works just fine. I'll look it up.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

deknow said:


> My thinking is that pocket screws fall somewhere in between wrt self jigging ability and ease of manufacture.


But certainly not wrt strength and longevity. Cant beat a good joint. [exhales]


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Barry said:


> But certainly not wrt strength and longevity. Cant beat a good joint. [exhales]


Sure you dont want to reword that?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Should I have added the word 'wood'?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> For a finger joint I consider glue is not necessary. It does not hurt either but in comparison to the joint itself what it adds is insignificant.


My view is exactly the opposite. Glue on each finger joint is a necessity. I make sure a nail or screw goes in the top and bottom finger, and then about 1/2 or 1/3 of each finger in-between. The nails/screws just hold the box together long enough for the glue to dry. The glue is what holds the box together long term. Not the nails or screws.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I concur. Woodworking 101 taught the function of proper joinery with glue required nothing else. You won't find nails or screws in fine furniture or cabinetry. At least you won't in my work.


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## BeeThere (Jul 5, 2011)

Glues today are great as someone else said. Do it and nail or staple too, tighter is more protection from long term weathering.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The nails and screws make good clamps till the glue sets up. If the glue fails in time, the nails and screws are there to fall back upon. I figure it is a win, win equation. With good glue application comes tranquility!:thumbsup:


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ben wrote;

what is wrong with a single Rabbet box loaded with Titebond 3 and Galvanized staples ? 

The rabbited(no glue) deeps my father made after the big one(WWII) are noticably looser than the box joint hives of the same era.


SQKCRK - strange, only found a few puzzles filled out, and only in the German newspapers. Maybe them Italian bees can't read English OR German.

Crazy Roland


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Barry said:


> But certainly not wrt strength and longevity. Cant beat a good joint. [exhales]


No matter how long Barry hold his breath a "roll your own" joint is worth all the "I did not inhale" effort put into it. 

Instead of glue we have been spraying (paint) the cuts before we put the boxes together. This seals the ends that are most prone to water absorption. Use a hydraulic press to square them up and then repaint the corners many times with all staple dents hand filled. Takes a long time for good paint to dry so this works like glue in the long run.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Specialkayme said:


> My view is exactly the opposite. Glue on each finger joint is a necessity. I make sure a nail or screw goes in the top and bottom finger, and then about 1/2 or 1/3 of each finger in-between. The nails/screws just hold the box together long enough for the glue to dry. The glue is what holds the box together long term. Not the nails or screws.


Seems like I always heard wood workers say that glue is stronger than the wood around it. Seems like a properly clamped box which is well glued could go w/out nails or screws.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Seems like a properly clamped box which is well glued could go w/out nails or screws.


Very well could. Most just don't have enough clamps lying around to properly clamp a dozen or more boxes at one point in time. You'd probably need 12 clamps per box. 20 boxes built at one point in time would require 240 clamps (to properly do it). Or you could clamp one up, wait 30 min for the glue to dry, take the clamps off, move to a second, wait 30 min . . . you get the point. Just more time intensive. A lot cheaper and quicker to just nail or screw it to hold in place while the glue dries and forget about it.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Barry said:


> I concur. Woodworking 101 taught the function of proper joinery with glue required nothing else. You won't find nails or screws in fine furniture or cabinetry. At least you won't in my work.


You are not making fine furniture when making beehives. Lets see how long that furniture holds up when buried in snow for a couple of weeks. Baked in the sun, rained on and you have pryed the drawers open with a crowbar a couple of times. Since most woodworkers cannot make a drawer that can old a full load of socks. I am thinking they would be stretched pretty thin to make one that will hold 70 lbs of wax and honey.

It might be interesting to take a project like remaking the beehive to some place like sawmill creek and just see what they come up with.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> It might be interesting to take a project like remaking the beehive to some place like sawmill creek and just see what they come up with.


I don't know how you would present the project to sawmill creek or a class of engineering students, but is there something that makes you think we would not end up w/ the design we currently have? Easy to produce, easy to assemble, lasts a long time, and well functioning.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> You are not making fine furniture when making beehives. Lets see how long that furniture holds up when buried in snow for a couple of weeks. Baked in the sun, rained on and you have pryed the drawers open with a crowbar a couple of times.


Has no one ever made a patio table or adarondak chair for external use only, out of wood, with no screws or nails before? Some of those would get considerable more wear and usage than one of your boxes.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

My-smokepole said:


> Looking for some feed back. How many of you are glueing boxes. And how tight of a joint do you like on finger joints. The reason I am asking is in part from a Conversation with the vendor.
> David


What was the conversation w/ the vendor like? Was this vendor one w/ some experience or someone relatively new?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Daniel Y said:


> You are not making fine furniture when making beehives. Lets see how long that furniture holds up when buried in snow for a couple of weeks. Baked in the sun, rained on and you have pryed the drawers open with a crowbar a couple of times.


The point you missed is, adding glue to a well made joint will add considerable strength to the box.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Anything worth doing is worth doing right.
When I was just starting out, I took great pains in my hive construction procedures.
One day an oldtimer stopped by to chat as I built boxes and said, "When you get bigger you won't be able to do that!"
WRONG!
We still glue each box, all joints, square them in the box press, the radially nail them.
#8 hot dip box nails, #7 in the top fingers.
Another myth: "The bees don't care what the boxes look like"
That may be true but the farmers do!
We get compliments all the time about the appearance of our hives delivered.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't know how you would present the project to sawmill creek or a class of engineering students, but is there something that makes you think we would not end up w/ the design we currently have? Easy to produce, easy to assemble, lasts a long time, and well functioning.




Other than a far more complete knowledge of material tools methods of machining, fastening, and outright building over the past 150 years. Not a thing except maybe altering the dimension to maximize materials most commonly used to make them. Maybe come up with the most recent recommendation on woods to use at today's prices. changes that have acoured to wood itself in the past 70 year or so. Changes that compelled the UBC to completely re write there table of spans for commercial lumber dimensions in the 1990's. Having a fuller knowledge of adhesives available today as well as more understanding of what ones woudl be appropriate for this particular application.

Other than that I can't think of a thing but then I have not really thought much about it. give me a bit maybe I will come up with something important.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

LLL made his first boxes the size he did because that's the size he had, supposedly.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> LLL made his first boxes the size he did because that's the size he had, supposedly.


That and 16 1/4" is such a nice round number.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It is a wonder that boxes haven't shrunk to fit modern building materials. Like 9 frame boxes so plywood covers made cutting them work out better.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> That and 16 1/4" is such a nice round number. 

It is not entirely without logic. :lookout:

Langstroth's patent used 10 frames of 1.375" = 13.75"
plus 3/8" bee space on each end of the group of 10 frames in the box = 0.75"

I have seen comments that bee box lumber was originally 7/8" thick, (possibly 1" cut, minus kerf) so 2 sides = 1.75"

13.75"
00.75"
01.75"
-----
16.25" 

reference for the patent dimensions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langstroth_hive


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Boxes I have purchased from Canadian suppliers are still 7/8 " thick.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > That and 16 1/4" is such a nice round number.
> 
> It is not entirely without logic. :lookout:
> 
> ...


Dang! Had he settled on 1 5/16" instead, then making beekeeping equipment would have been so much more efficient. He obviously didnt check the total against his abacus.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We still have alot of supers made from 13/16" material, so yes, earlier they could have been 7/8".

Someone said that a champagne box used in he 1850's was the exact size(Not height) of a super, and that he used what was available.

Crazy Roland


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

I didn't want to name names at this time. But they have been talk about here before. on the same subject. I feel that a tap with a hammer is one thing but with these I wanted a 5lb sludge hammer. An then fealt that some of the fingers wanted to spit. 
I was seeing the tearing on the fingers. when the one that I tryied. to assemble one. 
David


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

I assemble 500 to 1000 supers a year don't use any glue except on the lifting cleat. I use 2 3/8 x.113 galvanized ring shank 21 degree except on the bottom finger I counter sink and use a 2 1/2 screw. The lifting cleat is stapled with a galvanized 2''. then the finished box is dipped in hot linseed oil and rosin. will last a least 15 years before repaint.


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## Bill Russell (Aug 12, 2006)

What's the best glue to use?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

accordign to other sources. Tite bond III, Gorllia WOOD Glue or Epoxy. Keep in mid there is a difference in Wood Glue and others. I prefer Epoxy when gluing surfaces that need some flexibility but it is a pain and messy to use. You can also get rubberized CA glue that is good for applications where the joined pieces will move.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

All of the test that I have seen say tite bond 3. If I remember right. Fine wood working did a study on all of them a few years back. I know I have seen the wood break before the glue. 
David


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/video/testing-wood-glues.aspx

"All woodworkers depend on glue for their joinery" . . . . Hey Daniel, did you catch that?

I'll have to see if I have the July issue for the results.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Barry said:


> http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/video/testing-wood-glues.aspx
> 
> "All woodworkers depend on glue for their joinery" . . . . Hey Daniel, did you catch that?
> 
> I'll have to see if I have the July issue for the results.


Real nice Barry, you gave us that cool little primer and now I have to subscribe to Fine Woodworkers magazine to get the results.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

It's from 2007, surely someone has the issue and can give us the results. Mine are currently in boxes, but I'll see if I might have it sometime today. Probably shouldn't start a thread titled _Keyboard Woodworker_! 

http://www.oldbrownglue.com/pdf/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdf

LOL, it's out there!

"Ordinary yellow glue is as strong as the expensive stuff"
"Open-pored wood produces stronger joints"
"If oak and maple are representative of domestic woods, you don’t need to worry about a tight fit causing glue starvation."

"As Matthiesen joked, “You could park a car on these joints!” . . . but what about a Hummerbee?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Barry said:


> http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/video/testing-wood-glues.aspx
> 
> "All woodworkers depend on glue for their joinery" . . . . Hey Daniel, did you catch that?
> 
> I'll have to see if I have the July issue for the results.



I am not surprised you woudl mistake that as a claim that all woodworkers rely on glue for every joint. You excell at hearing anything in a way that supports your thinking. but that glue is used in all joints is hardly what he is saying. Any woodworker will make many different joints and among them eventually glue will be depended on. mainly the easy, crappy, unreliable joints. Just like the crappy box joint that needs to be glued.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

There is no best glue! The best choice case by case, depends on a lot of factors; wood type, grain orientation, its moisture content, fit up and type of joint, type of exposure water, rot, temperature, heat etc., cure time, grab time, loading whether mainly tensile, compressive, shear, vibratory etc.

I found that some of the quick grab glues are not good for assembling finger joint boxes as they dont allow for a bit of straightening or even ample time to assemble. A slower grabbing and setting glue will also allow more soaking into all surfaces of a joint which greatly increases the compressive strength of soft woods like hive bodies; it fills the pores. That is one good reason for using glue even if you nail and screw.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> I am not surprised you woudl mistake that as a claim that all woodworkers rely on glue for every joint. You excell at hearing anything in a way that supports your thinking. but that glue is used in all joints is hardly what he is saying. Any woodworker will make many different joints and among them eventually glue will be depended on. mainly the easy, crappy, unreliable joints. Just like the crappy box joint that needs to be glued.


I really don't see what you are getting at Daniel. I am not a woodworker, not a Joiner by any means, but I have seen fine furniture built by craftsmen. Cabinet makers who built 18th century furniture by hand, w/ only 18th century hand tools. All of the dovetailed joinery and mortise and tenon joinery was glued. The mortise and tenon joinery did use a pin or pins also, but glue was used too.

I don't understand what appears to be your anti-glue use attitude when it comes to finger jointed bee boxes.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

David - what brand of nail are you using? 

Crazy Roland


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

With this batch I started out with a 2-3/8 pasloe gav for my frame nailer. Didn't like how it was going To many Stray nails. Moved onto a maze gold color. That I had 15 lb of. Thinking of buying a 1/2 wide staple gun. If I get lucky at a auction tomorrow. 
David.


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## mmorris (Sep 27, 2012)

From Fine Woodworking (July/Aug 2007, p. 40):


> The first lesson is that most (but not all) of these joints are incredibly strong. As Matthiesen joked, “You could
> park a car on these joints!” *Given that the majority of the joints showed either complete or partial wood failure*
> (with the exception of hide-glued ipé and all three woods glued with polyurethane), *we concluded that most
> woodworkers can rely on their glue*. That said, there are significant variations between the different glues,
> ...


Meaning that if you use glue, you can rely that it will add the strength you expect. The wood failed before the glue.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

WheN a joint tears apart the wood is torn but the glue is in one piece with wood fiber stuck to it.


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