# best way to insulate hives??????????



## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

In our part of VA, we don't get quite that cold on a regular basis. Our group is evenly split on whether to insulate or not. One member even tracked the temperature differentials in an insulated hive to a non-insulated one and found that the insulated one stayed cooler during mid-day. What we all did decide on is that it's more important to have a wind break than insulation. Some of us use the burlap on short stakes, others plant bee-forage evergreen bushes on the windy side of the hives.

As for the insulation, most people, if they wrap are using the blue foam board. I have some that I will use in January when we get the 10 days of crazy cold weather, but other than that, I don't insulate. Although I do make sure my nucs are clumped together in a cube-arrangement for added warmth on 2 sides.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The actual material used to insulate is not that a big deal. The bigger threat to bees in the winter is not cold in particular, but _cold water_ dripping on the bee cluster.

Normal winter hive activity will release humidity (water) from honey as the bees consume it. If the humidity isn't vented appropriately, it can condense on the underside of the hive roof and drip onto the cluster. Dry bees can keep themselves warm with adequate honey/sugar, but not if they are _wet_.

Humidity needs to be vented to the outside one way or another. A simple upper vent is employed by some, others use a quilt box in an effort to minimize escaping heat but still vent moisture. 

My winter low temps get down to about 5 degrees F, and my bees do OK with _no _insulation, just a top vent. If you want to insulate, a piece of 2" foam board (weighted) over the top is an easy approach.

Tar paper wrap isn't really much of an insulator, but it could be useful to create a wind block if your hives are not in a wind sheltered area.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

From what I've learned so far, the bees don't warm the air inside the hive much; they just keep the interior of the cluster warm, using their bodies for insulation. Insulating the hive may prevent the interior of the hive from warming up enough so the bees can break the cluster once in a while and move to new stores, defecate, and so on. Someone posted the other day that the sun will warm the black paper so the bees will be able to come outside and stick close to the black to stay warm, venture further afield on warmer days. Langstroth mentioned that if you keep them too warm, they will eat themselves out of house and home.
Here, the daily highs are just below freezing, and it rarely gets to zero. I'm going to wrap with building paper, and add foam board on top to stop condensation, and a piece in the SBB to stop drafts. My main focus is making sure they are healthy going into Winter, and have enough stores.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

IMO the whole reason to use black wrap is for solar gain during the day, which might be JUST warm enough to get them that next inch when it's -10 or 15*F and they finally get a nice sunny day. Bees move stores around a lot more than you might think. And if they have a hive that's 55 degrees internally because sunlight hitting the roofing felt raises the external temperature touching the hive to 80 they can get to some stores and move it around. I popped the top on a 35 or 40 degree day last year to see a little trail of bees like ants crawling up to honey and then back down to the cluster.

This is doubly true if they have a little patch of brood and refuse to move from it. 2" foam on top, wrap with black roofing felt. Upper entrance for moisture.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

There really is no need to wrap where you are if your hives are full of honey.
Having said that, I am going to experiment this winter by wrapping two hives and comparing them to the others in spring. Just for fun and to satisfy my curiosity.

Check out the last post in this thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Wrap-Hives-Tight-Together&highlight=quilt+box

Also:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...carlson-RE-your-quilt-box&highlight=quilt+box

Sugar bricks:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...for-sugar-blocks&highlight=lauri+sugar+bricks

Lots of info on wintering in those threads.

My plan for the experimental hives is:

Wrap with tar paper, upper entrance using feeder shim with notch to let out moisture, sugar brick, quilt box on top of that. I might also use some inch and a half foam insulation I have left over from fixing my garage door. If that doesn't work..........


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

If someone gave me a roll of felt paper, I'd probable save it for roof repairs. I've had colonies go through weeks of 10-20 below (zero), no insulation other than a bit in the outer cover. Was I concerned? Yes, the first few times. Did I lose a colony or two? Yes, who doesn't?

Maybe it's the Buckfast...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I haven't tried _not_ insulating here so it is possible that hives would survive here merrily without. It will be interesting to see how Arnie's test goes of doing a comparison. Survival is an either or criteria so I would be interested in seeing stores usage recorded as well as number of frames of bees on some date in April perhaps. Will the insulated hives have an advantage in getting going earlier and having population peak _during_ flow not following flow? 

Three winters with 3, 6, and 7 hives and no losses is rather a small data base but having 40 below F. and a month of 20 below every night is a bit of a test. I have 7 wrapped up for this winter. I am not brave enough, (though I am lazy enough) to try going without wrapping on some insulation!


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

I grew up wrapping hives with tar paper with hole in center of inner cover packed with straw on top. other commercials did the same but no more. with too much insulation the bees don't benefit from the suns warmth allowing them to move. If I was to use any insulation it would be on the top. In the winter the snow on the cover center will be soft or melted. they may just warm the cluster but a lot of heat escapes and goes up to melt that snow. as said the most important step is lots and lots of honey.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I live in an area with below zero (down to -minus 25F) temps and often weeks when it doesn't get much above 5F.

The idea that insulation would keep the bees so cold that it prevents them from breaking cluster and moving around is not borne out in my experience. My bees move around a lot even though my hives are hyper-insulated.

What's hyper-insulation? Well, that's four or five inches of foam panels all around them, with a nominal R-value of R-20 to R-25. Heck, most years I even have insulation panels _inside _the hive. (Not this winter, though, as my hives are too big to do that without enormous disruption, so I'm trying it without internal insulation.)

My bees move around all the time: up to the feeding rim during the day and down to the middle boxes at night, or when it stays cold for a couple of days. I have tracked them by pulling the front insulation off and immediately using an IR testing device to see the "hot-spot" of where the main cluster is.

My hives are always tall 3 deeps and 1 medium, and well supplied with honey (most weighed more than 170 lbs. today)

I would suggest at least two inches of foam all around, held tightly to the hives with a ratchet strap. 

I don't use roofing paper. Whatever thermal (solar) gain you get during the day would be off-set at night and on overcast days by enhanced thermal losses when the sun isn't shining. Dark objects radiate heat and the greater the delta between the objects and the air, the greater the losses from warm to cold. And nighttime is when we have our deepest, most dangerous, cold. So it doesn't make sense to me to add a black surface in order provide _warmth_ to the hive. The main purpose of the wrap seems to me to be as a wind block, but you get that, too with well-fitted insulation panels, over carefully and precisely squared-up boxes. 

I also slide all my hives together on their stand and put two, 1" panels of foam insulation between them to take up the space where the telecovers overhang.

My stands are all downwind from a dense evergreen wind barrier, I use quilt boxes, top entrances, feeding rims, leave lots of stores, treat for mites one last time in December, and etc, etc.

I have wintered without any losses, so far. YMMV.

Enj.


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## Barhopper (Mar 5, 2015)

When I read these threads I think "I love Florida"


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

The bees can survive lots of different conditions. They are sometimes inside the walls of houses that have plenty of insulation, or in hollow trees where the insulation is a layer of wood maybe a couple inches thick, others are in barn walls that are not very tight and certainly not insulated. 
It isn't the cold per se that gets them, although they can sometimes get caught in a cold snap and not be able to get to their honey; but that is rare.
Moisture and condensation does them in. Also, lack of abundant honey. And of course, the danged mites.

But survival is one thing and THRIVING is another. I want to see if they come through winter charged up and ready to go with the insulation. Or if it matters not at all.

Enj, I used to live close to Malone, NY. Those are serious winters. 

So OP, insulate if you have the extra cash and time. Otherwise just give them an upper entrance, reduce the lower entrance and call it good. Have you killed the mites? They'll kill your bees long before the cold will. Just sayin'.


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## Agis Apiaries (Jul 22, 2014)

Our hives are just short of 7700' elevation in Colorado. We do a roofing felt wrap, and that's it. We do put quilt boxes on top to take care of condensation. But no additional insulation. Don't need it.


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Unaweep said:


> We live at 7000 feet elevation, the winter temps can get down to 0 or slightly below....


So you don't get winter. Those are spring temps around here and I would think that all you would need in such a warm location is an inch or 2 of rigid foam board on top of your inner cover. You could give it a wrap of tar paper to achieve some thermal gain on sunny days to help with your spring build up. We get -40F with 30 mph winds so I wrap mine with 1" rigid foam board covered with a wrap of tar paper to help keep it on. I follow that with 2" of foam board on top of my inner covers and a 3/4" hole for ventilation just under my top hand holds.


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## Unaweep (Apr 24, 2015)

Thank you all so very much.....I am putting all of this data together, moisture seems to be the main killer, we are sheltered from the wind quite well, so ventilation and some insulation will be in order...i think!


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Yes.... insulate real well above the inner cover, provide ventillation from entrance through inner cover and wind break. I cannot stress enough the importance of a wind break.
Pics would help as well in the future. Good luck.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Somewhere in the old literature there is a report of a Canadian hive being toppled over and coming through the winter that way OK - no top or bottom. Maybe that's a poor excuse to be lazy or cheap, and not insulate, but it works well enough for my bees.

I do run (small) upper (& lower) entrances all winter. Most seem to agree that humidity & condensation are probably the main culprits of winter-kill (along with varroa.) The cold? Maybe, in some extreme instances. My winter losses don't indicate that it is a primary factor here. We don't usually have prolonged extreme cold. My hives are also partially protected from the cold winds.

The "western slope" does appear to have somewhat harsher winters - the Rockies blocking & holding the cold a bit more than here on the front range. It really can't be that hard, or expensive to wrap them, especially just a few. If it gives you extra peace of mind - go for it! I have an old spare roll of roofing felt you can have...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

beeware10 said:


> I grew up wrapping hives with tar paper with hole in center of inner cover packed with straw on top. other commercials did the same but no more. with too much insulation the bees don't benefit from the suns warmth allowing them to move. If I was to use any insulation it would be on the top. In the winter the snow on the cover center will be soft or melted. they may just warm the cluster but a lot of heat escapes and goes up to melt that snow. as said the most important step is lots and lots of honey.


The idea of the suns few hours of added heat enabling the bees to move to new stores may not be based on physical facts. Bees have been kept in very cold thermo regulated freezers and they appear able at will to raise the cluster temperature enough to move. This depends on them having honey to supply the physical energy used to elevate the cluster temperature temporarily. The net heat loss over 24 hours is less in the insulated hive requiring lower consumption of stores.

I agree with the importance of lots of stores for winter survival and that the upper part of the hive benefits the most from insulation. Probably the effect of solar gain is more a consideration in borderline mild climates but I think it will not prove out in the more extreme cold locations. No question many colonies will, and have survived with no insulation but I think unbiased testing shows it lowers survivability and increases stores consumption. Some anecdotal claims about wrapping having no positive effect but I would wager that improper moisture control was a factor in their findings but attributed to the blocking of solar gain. I am skeptical of explanations that have sketchy areas in the physical chain of cause and effect.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

crofter said:


> The idea of the suns few hours of added heat enabling the bees to move to new stores may not be based on physical facts. Bees have been kept in very cold thermo regulated freezers and they appear able at will to raise the cluster temperature enough to move. This depends on them having honey to supply the physical energy used to elevate the cluster temperature temporarily. The net heat loss over 24 hours is less in the insulated hive requiring lower consumption of stores.


Interesting... and that makes sense. But what if the cluster is hanged up because of a relatively prolonged cold snap and have burned through what was contained in the cluster and are metabolically unable to raise cluster temp? All I know is my top insulated and black wrapped hives (No insulation on side other than a plywood wind break) started brooding way sooner and took cleansing flights more frequently. It wasn't an apples-to-apples comparison... but it was enough for me. For now at least.


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

Hello All,

I pull this older thread up again.

This is how I insulated this year:















2" foam board, 2" foam board in the tele-top with 1/4" plywood to cover. Small entrance at the bottom, 3/4" hole near the top.

Funny thing, a large amount of bees are hanging at the top, seem to collect the moisture. When I lift the top, the hang and cling to each other to form a ladder.

The hive weight 132 pounds in November, lots of honey and pollen.

Any comments?

Thanks, Joerg


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Wrapping helps cut those nasty drafty cold winter winds


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

I add a black wrap to the outside and again fasten with electrical tape. You can pick it up for free from the lumber yards Think it will add a bit of solar gain on a sunny day.


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

mgolden said:


> I add a black wrap to the outside and again fasten with electrical tape. You can pick it up for free from the lumber yards Think it will add a bit of solar gain on a sunny day.


Thanks MG, thought about that, but dislike the flattering around in our wind and that I can't open the lid easily and briefly anymore, it becomes to much work then.

I am monitoring my one and only (for now) and may make adjustments. Haven't had much winter to-date, just occasional -15C. 

Cheers, Joerg


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Unaweep said:


> Our neighbors do not insulate....It is our first year and we had excellent results, and want to treat our girls properly!!!


Ask you neighbors their winter survival rates. If they are acceptable for/to you, follow their lead


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Joerg. here's my hives this AM. It's 3F this AM.









I just do a perimeter wrap and not over the top. Can open the top and check on the candy blocks. Lots of people do wrap over the top, but this is how I do it and its been very successful for me. I don't have any problem with moisture on the outside of the supers.

Added a rim to the top of the quilt box and added a 3/4 hole above the shavings and no moisture problems on the underside of outer cover.


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

Well MG,

one can never get to many ideas exchanged. Nice setup, but I dont want to work that much anymore. Good suggestion with the way you wrap.

Will look in to it.

Thanks, all the best for the holidays and the next year.

Joerg


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

> Originally Posted by crofter View Post
> The idea of the suns few hours of added heat enabling the bees to move to new stores may not be based on physical facts. Bees have been kept in very cold thermo regulated freezers and they appear able at will to raise the cluster temperature enough to move. This depends on them having honey to supply the physical energy used to elevate the cluster temperature temporarily. The net heat loss over 24 hours is less in the insulated hive requiring lower consumption of stores.


Just watched a YouTube video that supports what you said. Fellow put a temperature probe into the hive and knocked on the hive to rouse the bees. The temp rose from 55 degrees to 85 degrees, _and stayed there for 5 hours._ In other words, it seems as if there's food, and they have enough energy, they can move at will.
I insulated the inner covers and sbb, and wrapped them in black paper. My theory is that a lot of insulation on the sides prevents the hive from warming up inside and allowing them to break up and go for cleansing flights.
Research I have read on Nosema suggests that it is worse in overwintering colonies in the North where bees can't get out often. Hopefully this lets them do it. I read another observation on here a while ago. The beek said the black paper will warm the air around the hive, and the bees can stick close to the paper on cooler days, range farther afield on warmer days. I haven't had a chance to see this for myself yet, but I will be looking for it this Winter.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

Unaweep said:


> We live at 7000 feet elevation, the winter temps can get down to 0 or slightly below.....i need some hard data that i can use...Blue board? i have heard tar paper, and a variety of things...Our neighbors do not insulate....It is our first year and we had excellent results, and want to treat our girls properly!!!


One of the main dangers is condensation, because wet bees can't get warm. It's recommended to insulate the top cover. I just used the cheap white 3/4" styrofoam. The other thing is get them out of the wind. Have you thought about moving them to the South side of the house or outbuilding?


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Natural hives have the comb attached to the ceiling, so there will be no condensation -- it never gets cold as there is very little airflow through the comb above the cluster. We leave an open space up there that can cause trouble.

I've not lost a hive to winter yet (spring, summer, SHB, spring starvation, wax moths, you name it, but not to the cold in winter), but my sample size is far to small to count. 

I would worry more about sealing up the hive against wind blowing through cracks more than insulating. The bee only heat the interior of the hive by leakage of warm air out of the cluster, it can be very very cold outside the cluster with no issues. 

Cold water dripping on them is fatal. Cold air in the hive isn't a problem, so insulation above the cluster to prevent cold condensation dripping on them is all you need, provided they have adequate stores.

Peter


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

When I lived in CO at 7000 feet I would slide 4 hives together and wrap all 4 in felt paper. I put shims on top with sugar bricks. The lids were insulated by ridged board insulation. Each lid had a 3/4 auger hole for ventilation. They were anchored down with ratchet straps. As my hives were increasing in number, I'm not sure I would have continued to that extent.


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## wertzsteve (Dec 28, 2015)

would taking out 1 frame in a 10 frame hive and putting 3/4 insulation board on the 2 inside walls work ok.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

MTN-Bees said:


> When I lived in CO at 7000 feet I would slide 4 hives together and wrap all 4 in felt paper. I put shims on top with sugar bricks. The lids were insulated by ridged board insulation. Each lid had a 3/4 auger hole for ventilation. They were anchored down with ratchet straps. As my hives were increasing in number, I'm not sure I would have continued to that extent.


I have 2 hives now, but I'm trying to figure out what will work for me when I have 20 or 30 hives. I want to do the least work for the greatest benefit.



wertzsteve said:


> would taking out 1 frame in a 10 frame hive and putting 3/4 insulation board on the 2 inside walls work ok.


I'm not sure if the bees wouldn't try to chew it up and throw it out. I just insulated the tops, but I took the precaution of screening off the hole in the inner cover to prevent this.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have gang wrapped and insulated up to 4 hives in one unit. Problem is they are not easy to get into or to take individual weights in early spring when it is still too early to be leaving them bare. It encourages hands off beekeeping! If you standardize your hive size and wraps they could be easy to store and quick on and off. I have to work on that! I have a motley mix of leftover and freebee insulation sheets and a mix of Typar, bubble wrap, tarpaper and oversized garbage bags and I swear never to do that again every spring and fall.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

They should be fine as long as they have the ventilation you mention. A lot of people worry excessively about the cold. In Alberta, Canada, your concerns may be well founded.

Let us know how they come through in the spring?


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## capitalbeesupply (Jul 28, 2013)

Unaweep said:


> We live at 7000 feet elevation, the winter temps can get down to 0 or slightly below.....i need some hard data that i can use...Blue board? i have heard tar paper, and a variety of things...Our neighbors do not insulate....It is our first year and we had excellent results, and want to treat our girls properly!!!


Something to look at is the USDA research paper titled "Thermology of Wintering Honeybee Colonies" that can be found in the Beesource Resources area. It provides a great deal of insight as to what is going on in the winter with bees and various forms of wintering configurations. While the work was done in the 50s it is still relevant today and a good read.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is a direct link to that USDA paper mentioned in the post above:
http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/the-thermology-of-wintering-honey-bee-colonies/


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