# Newbee needing advice from the great bee minds



## Andy382 (May 7, 2015)

This is my 1st year beekeeping, started out with 2 langstroth Italian hives. One swarmed on me back in July & I was able to find it & catch it. I put in a 10 frame deep langstroth. 1 frame of eggs (from other hive, 8 frames of drawn comb from my mentor) they seemed to be doing fine & growing at a good pace. Put a medium (all I had at the time or would have put another deep) of undrawn comb on that since they needed room to expand. Still doing fine after that & growing. So now I had 3 hives. About 6 weeks ago my mentor introduced me to an older gentleman that he knew through a family friend. The older gentleman had been raising bees for about 10-15 years but had developed deminshia lately and had been stung pretty badly by some of his bees & was wanting to sell what he had & get out. He had 3 langstroth hives that we're doing ok but had bad beetle problem & little stores, & had a bunch of drawn frames (deeps & shallows) basically all the hardware for 4-5 more hives. So long story short I've nursed those back to health, small hive beetles very small numbers, feed like crazy so their honey stores are up. But back to beginning of story my swarm hive needed more space & the goldenrod flow was on so I put on a deep of drawn frames I got from the older guy on top of the medium( so it was deep, medium, deep), my mentor suggested switching the top boxes( deep, deep, medium). This was about 2 weeks ago, last week I noticed a ton of dead bees outside the entrance of this hive, about a deep frame and a half, numbers down in the hive. Checked it yesterday & pulled screen out of bottom and about another frame of dead or weak, dying bees fell out. What is going on? We're the frames I got from the old man tainted with pesticides? They've totally moved out of bottom deep into 2nd deep, & medium is 6-7 frames drawn with honey. Lots of honey in middle deep. Saw covered brood in 2nd deep & lots of honey but what's up with all the dead bees? None of the other 5 hives are acting like this at all. As aways thanks for advice & I'll fill in any blanks I might have missed if you ask.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

It's kind of hard to tell what the cause of the die off was, but what to do next is the main thing.

Check for American Foul brood - if in doubt call your state bee inspecter.

Make sure the hive is queenright - if not shake it out and/or combine it.

Decide if it's going to be strong enough to winter successfully - in my area a bit farther south that's a minimum of 5 deep frames of bees - if not combine it.

Is the setup too big for the colony now? If so take off a box of comb.

Have they been treated for mites recently? If not that is a likely cause of those dead bees. Do something about it unless you are going treatment free.

If you don't shake them out or combine them after all that then quit rearranging things and feed them to prep for winter.

And cross your fingers.

I'm sure one of those great bee minds will chime in shortly.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Post pictures of the dead and dying frames.

Are they dying only on those newly acquired frames and not in the rest of the hive?

How long after you added the frames, if it's pesticide the kill would be immediately. As soon as they entered the hive, bees would start tasting them.

Any dead larva open or capped. 

How are you mite counts.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Our bee school warned us to be cautious about buying old equipment and bees you are not sure of. The reasons are clear enough above.

But they are not necessarily bad. Hives do pare down population at this time of year, and if it is a mite problem, two months ago would have been better but you can certainly try treatment.

Another thread recently has a lot of recommendations for quarantining new hives, swarms, and other mystery bees until you can be sure they are healthy. Can you put these bees in an outyard well away from your own hives?

This is a rough time of the year to try to save distressed bees, but then again, _*if you can do it without hurting your existing hives*_, a potentially great chance to get way more exposure to trouble, and the learning that goes with it, than otherwise. Be prepared for this to work out poorly, and be delighted if you can save them. Having a mentor is a big plus.


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## Andy382 (May 7, 2015)

It's almost like they moved from the bottom deep to the 2nd deep and the medium above that, the bottom deep is completely empty like maybe the queen had started laying in the medium then when I did the box switch she stayed in top deep & medium which is fine but wouldn't explain all the dead bees. I don't think it's pesticides because I have 5 more stronger hives & they aren't doing any of this, they'd all forage the same areas right? But figured pesticides might stay on drawn wax if the old had bees before that had gotten into pesticides. I'm trying treatment free for now so I haven't had a mite count even though I'm sure I'll get a lot of negative comments about that. I started beekeeping knowing it was tough and I'd lose hives. I'll accept this loss if they die, my main concern is finding out why so it doesn't happen again. Why keep doing it if I can't learn from my mistakes and continue to do wrong things & lose hives? Could I send some bees off somewhere to have them tested? If they do die can I extract & use the honey or should it be tested? If they die should I scrape off all the old wax as to not contaminate a future hive? Should I even reuse equipment if they don't make it? These are the main questions going on in my mind. I've already put them as a loss in my mind so if they die no biggie but if they make it, awesome!! I'll try to get out there and take pics to post but might be next week, they're not in my backyard.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

You can send dead bees off to the Beltsville Bee Lab. Your tax dollars at work, and well spent: 

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=7472

They are particularly handy for diagnosing nosema (always present but some expertise and a good microscope are needed to get counts, and Beltsville can tell the species) and the viruses carried by mites. They can diagnose pesticide effects as well.

You should learn to recognize bee diseases such as deformed wings, paralyzed bees, etc. Smell the hives ... if they smell rank it is time to look up American and European Foulbroods. Notice if the bees died with their tongues hanging out ... this is not a positive diagnosis of pesticides but should raise suspicion. You really should at least do IPM board drop counts or sugar rolls. Both are easy. Knowing your mite load and spotting diseases might convince you to treat. 

Getting a hive that cannot survive without treatment thru the winter and healthy in the spring would give you a good starting point if you could find a source of better queens in the spring. Your chance of raising TF bees without starting with TF bees is close to zero. Don't be reluctant to treat if you don't know the bees can handle it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Phoebee said:


> They are particularly handy for diagnosing nosema (always present but some expertise and a good microscope are needed to get counts, and Beltsville can tell the species) and the viruses carried by mites. They can diagnose pesticide effects as well..


I do not believe the pesticide part of this is correct. I believe they send that out and it costs you a bunch of money if you want it done.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Jw is correct. They also don't test for viruses.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

deknow said:


> Jw is correct. They also don't test for viruses.


Thanks, that was the rest of it I forgot to type.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> Thanks, that was the rest of it I forgot to type.


I don't know if they charge extra for them, but I've seen pesticide reports from them. 

They at least have external signs they look at for viruses ... I mean, a 5-year-old who has never looked closely at a bee can spot deformed wings. Sacbrood is also caused by a virus. Filamentous Virus can be diagnosed using dark field or phase contrast microscopy. I have found their actual examination guidelines online, although at the moment I am having trouble locating them. Anyone who can find this can see exactly what they do.

Look up "Diagnosis of Honey Bee Diseases"
United States Department of Agriculture
Agricultural Research Service
Agriculture Handbook Number 690
Hachiro Shimanuki and David A. Knox

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/np/honeybeediseases/honeybeediseases.pdf


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

Changing stuff around this time of year is a little scary. I don't know if they are going do anything with that drawn comb anyway...when you said bad beetle problem and using drawn comb...so many things make me cringe....what made you think they need more space at this time of year? I may be off track. We need to look at some close up pictures of the frames and see if you don't have larva crawling around everywhere...

wait: fundemental question. What else are you seeing? Do you see eggs, larva, queen? eggs larva queen.....let us know.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

QUOTE _I'm trying treatment free for now so I haven't had a mite count even though I'm sure I'll get a lot of negative comments about that. _ The main difference with hobby bee keepers and commercial bee keepers is their percentage of losses. Commercial keepers have a much lower percentage of loss than the 33% loss hobyist realize. Commercial bee keepers keep bees for their bread and butter; they monitor, TREAT their colonies and do whatever best practices for their operations necessary to remain viable. Man if you have an infection, you can't just get gangrene until your arm falls off, you have to treat. Even if you have hygienic fancy pants genetics in your queen, if the hive's varroa count is above a manageable threshold the colony is going to croak if the bee keeper doesn't do something. This is why hobbyist on an average have higher losses when infact they shouldn't have higher losses. WHY? Because hobbyist have much more time to follow established best practices for keeping bees. YES...some treat...some do not treat.....some experience more losses than others....some believe they are creating a super race of bees if they don't treat and they survive...there may be truth to this but if a colony exceeds a threshold for whatever pest-it's the curtain call. I don't think Micheal treats. 


_I started beekeeping knowing it was tough and I'd lose hives. I'll accept this loss if they die, my main concern is finding out why so it doesn't happen again._ An IPM board is the beek's ouija board. You are not going to effectively "find out" what is killing your hive(s) unless you can ascertain the health of your colonies by the evidence derived from your ouija board. It will ease the panic and give you a more proactive posture in keeping bees. You can eliminate guesswork about pesticides, when you can easily determine an out of control varroa infestation through your IPM board. You can also see evidence of other stuff that can be going on. 


_Why keep doing it if I can't learn from my mistakes and continue to do wrong things & lose hives?_ In terms of money and time, avoidable mistakes serve no real purpose. You are right..but why loose hives? If you have lotsa money and lotsa time and energy to just let some colonies go-COOL!

I am curious to see what is causing your colony to experience a kill...my best guess is high mite count-sky high mite count; quennless colony; eggs? larva??....picture pictures...I am bookmarking this thread; really curious now.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Phoebee said:


> They at least have external signs they look at for viruses ... I mean, a 5-year-old who has never looked closely at a bee can spot deformed wings. Sacbrood is also caused by a virus. Filamentous Virus can be diagnosed using dark field or phase contrast microscopy. I have found their actual examination guidelines online, although at the moment I am having trouble locating them. Anyone who can find this can see exactly what they do.


How do you know that the execute all of these tests when they get a sample? I sent a sample in, said I suspected EFB and my report said... "No foulbrood present."

Nothing of any other test done. A guy up the road, I had him send a sample in and he asked them to test for pesticides. They said, "Can do, we send it to XYZ lab and cost is XYZ." It was triple digits. Couple hundred bucks if my mind isn't failing me. 

I wouldn't assume that Beltsville is doing ANYTHING other than exactly what they say they did on your post examination report. Not doubting you at all, just curious if you've contacted them and they say "Yes, we do all that for each sample."



vdotmatrix said:


> An IPM board is the beek's ouija board.


Please also consider that the OP may (like mite counts) not believe in ouija boards.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The Beltsville lab is very upfront about what they do (and do not) test for ...



> Samples received of adult bees and beeswax comb (with and without bee brood) are examined for bacterial, fungal and microsporidian diseases as well as for two species of parasitic mites and other pests associated with honey bees (i.e., small hive beetle, Aethina tumida).
> 
> When requested, American foulbrood samples are cultured and isolates are screened for their sensitivity to Terramycin (oxytetracycline) and Tylan (tylosin).
> 
> ...


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## Andy382 (May 7, 2015)

Vdotmatrix, I gave the bees more space because my hives are close to about 250 acres of CREP ground that's about 45-50% goldenrod. They had a quad hive feeder on with 2:1 sugar water to help get their stores set for winter and they went from going through that twice a week to barely touching it. Seemed to me the goldenrod flow was on & they needed more space.
I talked to my mentor yesterday and he advised me to do a mite count & I'm going to do that this weekend so I know I can get back out there in 24 hours. I still don't think I'll treat even though I'm trying to do more research on OA. 
The beetles in the 3 hives I got from the old man were more than I was use to but not unmanageable. There weren't thousands or something crazy like that just more than my own hives had. I baby them up though and all 3 of those hives seem to be doing great.
When I looked Sunday I didn't see a queen but sometimes have a hard time spotting her, I didn't see eggs just covered brood but didn't pull every frame.
At the entrance everything looks normal & worker bees still bringing in nectar & pollen. Even though I know at the entrance looking at bees can't tell you as much as looking inside. Even inside everything seems normal just bees dying off quick.
I know I'm new and a lot of things that don't make sense now will later on but do mites reproduce that quick were a hive can go from few dying bees(not noticeable signs) to thousands of dying bees in a matter of a couple of weeks? It just seems awful quick to me.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

I am so jealous that you have such a great place for your bees!

I have to run but here is an article about small hive beetles: http://www.beeculture.com/small-hive-beetles/

I rarely see my queen so don't feel bad..what is important for you to do almost every time you go in, especially as a new BEEK is to look for eggs and larva, especially eggs...review your bee math and life cycle...if you see eggs you queen was there at least 3 days ago.

Seeing capped brood just means she was there a couple weeks ago and if you dont see eggs and larva you can probably start freaking out now!

The will still fly around, bring in pollen, and to someone just watching them fly around and bring in pollen everything looks great.....but if you don't see eggs and larva, you are running out of time to do something....Have you seen any charged queen cells? Man, as soon as you ever see anything out of the norm, you need to agressively investigate and especially NOW since time is not on your side with cold coming...

If it were a different time of years with drones about, you could introduce a frame of new eggs from another hive , if you are queenless and don't see queen cells and they will make another queen. 

If you don't know what your mite load was before things went south then you can't speculate now.....do you see mites on the bees....that's one of the most important things to monitor in our hives...gotta run...more soon....keep us informed!!!!


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

A few hundred bucks to run what I would guess is a GCMS spectrum is pretty reasonable. Not as reasonable as free, of course.

For a routine test of why a hive is not thriving, that may be too much. For proving that the truckload of bees you took out to the almond groves were clobbered by a tank mix, that's a bargain.

Or maybe the guy who caught his neighbor spraying Raid over the fence at his hives would find it worthwhile.

But I also know a few people who would rather think they lost their hives due to neonicotinides, blaming a chemical company rather than other factors they might have controlled, and would not want to pay to prove otherwise.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Phoebee, I'm not disagreeing. Just saying that this:


Phoebee said:


> They are particularly handy for diagnosing nosema (always present but some expertise and a good microscope are needed to get counts, and Beltsville can tell the species) and the viruses carried by mites. They can diagnose pesticide effects as well.


Is not necessarily the case. Don't want anyone getting their hopes up.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...in the case of viruses, it is not the case at all. Beltsville does not test for viruses. My recollection is that the pesticide testing is sent to an entirely different facility to do the testing...I don't believe that beekeeper samples sent to beltsville are sent out for virus testing, I believe the beekeeper must send samples to a different facility, along with almost $300.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Pesticide testing gets sent to a completely different facility.

Jonathan Barber 
Laboratory Supervisor 
USDA AMS S&T Laboratory Approval & Testing Division 
National Science Laboratories – Gastonia 
801 Summit Crossing Place 
Suite B 
Gastonia, NC 28054

E-Mail: [email protected]

Main: 704-867-3873 
Direct: 704-833-1523 
Mobile: 704-838-6239 
Fax: 704-853-2800


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

Okay...newbee mentions pesticides and suddenly we are talkin GCmasspec ( gas chromatography mass spectroscopy ). "GCmass spec don't lie" inside joke when i worked in the toxicology lab doing HPLC way back when....a couple hndred bucks to have something shot through gcms isn't too bad...thought it would be more....


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## Andy382 (May 7, 2015)

So I went in the trouble hive yesterday, totally different hive!! Bees acting like normally, very busy & active!! Bees had moved down in bottom deep now, eggs, & larva on about 5 frames that were completly empty 6 days previously. Put in my bottom board for counting mites, went back today, 24 hours later and counted 25 mites. Tried looking up what numbers should be but lots of different answers out there. Didn't think that was to bad for what I read. It all clicked after seeing them yesterday & how much better they were how I had accidently killed so many of my bees from that hive. They hadn't been drinking much of the sugar water(2:1 mix) like they had been so I left it on. It was 3-4 weeks, it had fermented and that's what was killing them. I couldn't believe I had been so stupid. I knew sugar water wouldn't stay good forever but didn't think it'd kill them like that. I think after 6 days without it they sobered up and are back in business!! I actually think they might have a chance to survive & make it through the winter!! That's one mistake I won't make again!! Just glad to know the queen was still alive & that bees are so resilient. Thanks for all the good info and advice that was given!!!


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

I think we use to leave the board in for 3 days and take an average for 3 days.before I started doing the sugar roll...but I run 8 frame mediums...here is a link you might find useful....http://honeybeehealthcoalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/HBHC-Guide_Varroa-Interactive-PDF.pdf

Don't let your guard down with 25 mites.....glad to hear about eggs and larva...keep us posted.



Andy382 said:


> So I went in the trouble hive yesterday, totally different hive!! Bees acting like normally, very busy & active!! Bees had moved down in bottom deep now, eggs, & larva on about 5 frames that were completly empty 6 days previously. Put in my bottom board for counting mites, went back today, 24 hours later and counted 25 mites. Tried looking up what numbers should be but lots of different answers out there. Didn't think that was to bad for what I read. It all clicked after seeing them yesterday & how much better they were how I had accidently killed so many of my bees from that hive. They hadn't been drinking much of the sugar water(2:1 mix) like they had been so I left it on. It was 3-4 weeks, it had fermented and that's what was killing them. I couldn't believe I had been so stupid. I knew sugar water wouldn't stay good forever but didn't think it'd kill them like that. I think after 6 days without it they sobered up and are back in business!! I actually think they might have a chance to survive & make it through the winter!! That's one mistake I won't make again!! Just glad to know the queen was still alive & that bees are so resilient. Thanks for all the good info and advice that was given!!!


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