# DWV and Hygenic Behavior?



## madasafish (Aug 24, 2010)

You have a major varroa infestation. Treat asap.


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## beez2010 (Dec 9, 2009)

Not so fast Madasafish....

It is a myth that only hives that are heavily infested with varroa have to deal with DWV. Although heavy mite infestations will exacerbate many normally occurring viruses such as DWV, any number of bee viruses can occur in otherwise healthy hives. I have experienced DWV in hives that had 24 hour natural mite drops of 1 or 2. If you see several bees with deformed wings crawling around on the ground in front of the hive at any given time of the day, then you probably _do_ have DWV being exacerbated by varroa.

To answer the question, any bee with DWV is a sick bee and healthy bees will often eject sick bees as soon as they are identified. The sick bees cannot always be identified while the cells are capped. The ability of the bees to detect sick brood depends on what the sickness is.

Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I agree that DWV can be present and yet the hive may not be experiencing a severe infestation of mites. I have hives that have had DWV in them for a couple seasons now with low to medium mites counts, and they are just as strong and productive, even more productive, than hives with no DWV. I usually only see the bees with DWV crawling around in the grass in front of their hives. I assume the workers have thrown the unhealthy bees out of the hive, although I have never actually witnessed it. I go treatment free, so the bees have no choice but to handle the problem themselves, and it appears they must be dealing with varroa to some extent so far. John


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Same here,,,,DWV with mite count of one:applause: I find larvae out in front of the hive that the wings look twisted. New bees too. Two of the hives were local feral swarms. They are my best hives so far. I'm anxious to see how they winter.
BTW,,,did a few grease patties with wintergreen but gave that up months ago.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

Update I did two twenty four natural mite drop counts. The hive is not overly infested with mites. This hive is a relativly new hive, I split the queen and two frames of bees early this past spring to keep them from swarming. 

The mite count for day one was 15 and 20 on day two. I'm not seeing many bees with DWV on the ground the only reason I have even noticed it is because I watch them quite often and notice the workers hauling them out, they usally fall to the ground which gives me a chance to see them before they eventually fly off with them. Most of these are fully developed bees they are newly hatched though because they are very soft and have not hardened up yet. Other than that the hive seems to be doing very well. Thanks for the responses I am still trying to learn as much as I can.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

johng said:


> The mite count for day one was 15


I think that is a high mite count. If you don't do a alcohol wash I would treat ASAP. My experience is that if you're getting that kind of drop an wash will show many more mites. Anything over 10 needs treatment.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

http://www.capabees.com/main/files/pdf/varroathreshold.pdf

Scroll down to page 4 on this link
There is will convert the drop count to a %. 18count is equivaltent to 3%. So you are over the 3% mark right now
Mites double in count in 3 weeks...every brood cycle.
Severe and visible damage occurs at 4% of mites So, depending on where you are at in the brood cycle you could be nearing 6%+ in varroa infestation which more that shows brood damage.

Now you have a whole cycle of bees sick. If you were to give it a week or so, your mite counts will go up because the bees are starting to hatch. If you go and uncap a few of the brood, you might see more sick bees. If you notice bees dying while trying to get out of the cell...sick bees. What you will see are heads sticking out, with the tongues out. If you pick them out, you will notice the deformed wings.
Now these are your wintering bees. These sick bees are what are to carry your hive through the winter. 

Check out this link too
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7304562435786960616# 

Good luck


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Johng, 15 years ago the recommendation here in Arkansas was to treat a colony when the mite drop reached 25, now the recommendation is when the drop is over 50. Check with your state apiary section for the recommendation for your area. 

I had colonies 2 years ago that had large numbers of DWV bees crawling but after requeening the DWV disappeared without treating for varroa. I am now starting to see a few DWV crawlers, but not nearly as large a number as before. Each colony is different, some are more tolerant than others and will not crash until the varroa reach very large numbers. I have had colonies with counts of over 10,000 mites when treated and the fall counted, while others crashed at 5,000.

One of the first things I notice when varroa starts to damage a colony is that the honey surplus is not as large as was previously gathered. Then the brood starts to be shotgunned by the house bees removing the pupa at the pink colored eye stage. Then the adult bees start to look "shabby", they don't have that clean, healthy look. When they have the shabby, bag lady look you must treat quickly because they are on the edge of collapse. 

If you don't treat with chemicals don't rely on powdered sugar alone as some do, but do sugar dusting along with drone brood removal. The combination of the two is effective. If you use chemicals go with the formac acid products. The are the least contaminating to your comb's wax. I have never used the thymol based products so I can't say how well they work.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I checked on this hive again. They have pulled every bit of capped brood out of the hive. The queen has young larva and eggs on about 3 frames. There is still quite a few bees in the hive and they are bringing in lots of pollen. I put on an apigaurd treatment about a week and a half ago. I have not found many mites on the sticky board. I'm hoping they pull through.


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## beez2010 (Dec 9, 2009)

johng said:


> I checked on this hive again. They have pulled every bit of capped brood out of the hive.


Or perhaps the capped brood has all emerged normally?



johng said:


> The queen has young larva and eggs on about 3 frames. There is still quite a few bees in the hive and they are bringing in lots of pollen.


That all sounds normal and healthy.



johng said:


> I put on an apigaurd treatment about a week and a half ago. I have not found many mites on the sticky board.


Sounds to me like you didn't have any real mite problem to begin with.



johng said:


> I'm hoping they pull through.


Despite all of the human interaction and introduction of toxic chemicals, they'll probably be fine. I wish you continued good luck with your bees.

Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

johng, you might find it beneficial to requeen with a resistant or hygenic queen next spring. Then you won't have to worry about varroa or dwv and treating. Several of us have gone treatment free for years with such bees.
Regards,
Steven


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## beez2010 (Dec 9, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> Agree totally.
> 
> And if the bees have died out over winter, which they likely will, both a queen and a package of bees can be purchased from someone such as BeeWeaver, who produce varroa tolerant bees.


Oldtimer,

Could you please explain why you believe that a northern Florida winter is likely to kill this gentleman's apparently mostly healthy, non-varroa infested bee colony? :scratch:

Thanks in advance!

Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## beez2010 (Dec 9, 2009)

Old Timer,

Perhaps you have missed something.



johng said:


> I checked on this hive again. The queen has young larva and eggs on about 3 frames. There is still quite a few bees in the hive and they are bringing in lots of pollen. I put on an apigaurd treatment about a week and a half ago. I have not found many mites on the sticky board.


There is no such thing as a hive with NO varroa (at least not on this continent) and I have never said to anyone at any time that I think or that they should think that their hive(s) is free of varroa. Johng has already done a varroa treatment and has not found much. 


Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## beez2010 (Dec 9, 2009)

I have found that mites fall and stick to the sticky board all the time while they are still alive. I often see them on their backs with legs kicking. True, not all of the dead mites make it to the sticky since they likely fall off while the bee is outside. The same goes for live mites that fall off the bee while outside the hive.

What makes me think that the mite population is probably insignificant, apiguard efficacy aside, is that Johng said that there is little or no capped brood inside the hive at this time, which must mean that virtually all of the mites are phoretic (not in cells breeding). If the mite population is high and all of the mites are phoretic, there should be a more significant mite drop each day. Shouldn't there be?

If I knew that all of the mites in one of my hives were phoretic, I would not be concerned at all with drops of only 15 or 20 mites. 

Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

beez2010 said:


> If the mite population is high and all of the mites are phoretic, there should be a more significant mite drop each day. Shouldn't there be?


Not if the temperatures for the treatment are below threshold. It works the same way as formic that way. You need the temps. As well, if Apiguard is a contact or vapour treatment you need either the treatment to be where they will come in contact with it....or you need enough bees to move the vapors around in a confined space.
With Mite Away 2 you need a minimum of 5 frames of bees and a single box works better than a double, if numbers are low. Some treatments which are contact, need to be close to the center of any remaining brood so the bees will walk over it, otherwise they will avoid it. Apivar and checkmite are like this.
I was in a simillar situation as Johng this spring/summer. I treated what looked to be about the same drop numbers. I used MA2. The temps dropped before the first week was over (most critical time of treatment). When i pulled the pads, the hives were not doing great. I did another drop test and mites were about the same as before treating. We were just about to enter into a honey flow, so, any treatment had to be fast and furious. Enter a week later the flash formic treatment. Now most of the hives I flashed had very little capped brood. A flash treatment is 24 hours. I placed the blue shop towel on a piece of cardboard and slid it into the the hive. 24 hours later, pulled it out and I could not count the mites there were so many.
Because of these mites, I fought long and hard with DWV, weak hives, poor honey production and the tearing down of close to half of those hives because the winter survival would not have happened.



beez2010 said:


> If I knew that all of the mites in one of my hives were phoretic, I would not be concerned at all with drops of only 15 or 20 mites.


This is the part about mites that is misunderstood. These drop mites are only a representation of what is in the hive, phoretic or not. These mites will enter the brood and will feed on the brood at the appropriate time and will double in numbers in three weeks. These bees that hatch may not show outward signs of illness, however they will be weaker and prone to incubating viruses. They will not perform their jobs to the best of their healthy ability. The life span will be shorter. I could go on, but you get the idea. Each generation of bees that hatch will be weaker, and will live shorter amounts of time, all the while the mites will double every three weeks.

Winter survival depends on healthy bees going into cluster. These bees will have to withstand the harsh realities of winter, and not flying to relieve themselves as often. They will be confined with the mites and with the ability for the viruses to gain a stronger foot hold. Weak bees can not survive the winter as well as healthy bees. Can not state it more plainly than that.

For the more acurate mite counts, and alcohol wash is the best. Three hundred or so bees from the brood frames, shake vigorously for 8 minutes or set aside for a half hour and then strained will give you a more acurate count than the drop method.
That said, if you started with the drop method, continue to monitor via the drop method...consititency. Then practice with the alcohol wash method after treating.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Hello,
Browsing over this thread I'll share this anecdote with you:

After selecting without treating for many years, I have noticed DWV levels
go way down in my breeding population. Earlier on, I'd see it more. I'm not
selecting against it, nor am I selecting for hygienic behavior, but just
selecting for queens that are hardy and productive that head colonies with
low average mite counts throughout the season using the Alcohol Wash test
three or four times a season: www.vpqueenbees.com/awa .

With AI (II) I'm able to control matings in portions of my selection
process, and this coupled with the use of VSH stock, helps further queen
and colony hardiness by increasing selection odds 
(see: http://vshbreeders.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=49 ).

I test new candidates every year, and this year, I had a few queens from
one test batch that just didn't seem to amount to much. The other day, I
went in one extremely poor colony, and low and behold, almost all the new
workers emerging had DWV! I culled that queen and combined what remained
with another test queen who's pedigree and performance I knew more about.
It will be interesting to see if the DWV lessens, and if the colony can
bounce back with this fresh queen.

DWV indicates poor colony health with high levels of Varroa. If bees are
dragging out live workers with DWV (I see this off and on) you can assume
that the colony is unhealthy and should be monitored. If you're trying to
manage without treatment, have brood and a new queen in the wings--ready
for use in the high DWV colony. Replacing queens when viral symptoms are
extreme, will often solve the colony's problem. Just don't wait too long: 
the colony might not bounce back if too far gone. Many viruses are vertically
transmitted: the queen passes the virus along to each egg she lays.

Keep Observing and Good Luck!

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> Good post, I believe that eventually the solution to varroa ( and associated viruses ) will have to be a genetic one.
> 
> And you are correct that requeening with a varroa tolerant queen can lessen DWV, this has been documented.
> 
> And when you read the thread you would have seen that a couple of us recommended he requeen with a varroa tolerant strain.


Oldtimer,
I read the thread! It is a good one. I was posting relaying my recent experience in the post's context. 
Often, when one ventures into managing bee virus, one feels alone. I wanted to share what I've seen over the years showing the DWV isn't the end.

Sometimes I'll see some form of Acute Paralysis virus. Nasty! Shivering shaking bees.
Requeen and add a couple frames of emerging brood early or more later, and
poof... symptoms gone. Vertical tramsmission: stopped.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I wanted to post an update to this tread. It looks like the hive is going to pull through winter just fine. The hive did have a high mite count after all. I found out why I was not seeing them at first. I have a SHB tray under the hive but, do not have any oil in it. The ants were hauling out the mites as they would fall off the bees. So I sprayed the tray with cooking spray and did a Oxalic acid vapor treatment. The tray was covered with mites the next day. I waited one week and did another vapor treatment. Then I did two treatments of Apigaurd. I caught the DVW early enough in the fall so that the queen was able to lay up new eggs for the winter bees. My origianl marked queen was still in the hive this past week and the hive is building up for spring. 

I am in North Florida with more forgiving weather which I'm sure helped. But, so far we have had the coldest December on record. Hopefully it will not stay cold like it did last year.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

:thumbsup:I commend you on your integrated pest management and your analytical methods.
Keep up the good work and good luck.
Ernie


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

johng said:


> The hive did have a high mite count after all. I found out why I was not seeing them at first.


Well, don't take my word for it!!

Good to hear things have turned out well, thanks for updating, often these threads just disappear and we never find out the final outcome. 

You have done very well with your research and care of the bees. And for the future any major DWV should always be taken as an indicator of serious varroa infestation.

And good to see your comment about the ants, I've seen that happening on my own testing boards the ants seem to love varroa. But I've never seen it mentioned on the forum before.


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