# Help for All Beekeepers



## giant pumpkin peep (Mar 14, 2009)

Look into the west virginia queen breeder co-op, Their governer somehow got them some money to start a queen co-op. Don't really care to have the goverment involved in my bees. Sometimes it can go well, but other times not so much. Not trying to start a politcal hissing match, just saying.


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## GA-BEE (Jan 20, 2004)

Thanks, I will. Tennessee has a grant for new beekeepers but it is so restrictive and you barely get anything from it in the first three years. Not very appealing to most folks.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Small farm loans from Farm Bureau or Farm Service Agency?


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## GA-BEE (Jan 20, 2004)

Nothing for beekeepers. You can get a loan to expand your farm, but ask for a loan to expand your apiary - "No can do."


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

What about a loan to buy a farm or orchard and using that to expand?

C2


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

There have been several State initiatives to help beekeepers, but they all come from, as far as I can tell, time limited grants or other one time legislative efforts. Meaning that they have been for a certain period of time, not forever. Virginia had one a few years ago and had some free hive equipment and queen rearing classes and the State just passed a new grant. This new grant was born of the efforts of some super sharp high school students if you can believe that! 
There are also crop specialty (USDA but money and applications funneled through the States) and SARE (USDA )- some of those are for beginner and others are for established farmers. There have been several of these type of grants for beekeepers. You can search the SARE data base easily- the crop specialty website is not so easily searchable, but still there is information on there. Vermont, New York, WV, MA are all States that have received crop specialty grants for beekeeping in some fashion. So you can either apply for a grant on your own or work within your State to develop something or work with a foundation to fund.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Batman said:


> What about a loan to buy a farm or orchard and using that to expand?


Ok, you buy the farm or orchard and pay for those with the loan, how does that give you money to expand?


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

giant pumpkin peep said:


> Look into the west virginia queen breeder co-op, Their governer somehow got them some money to start a queen co-op. Don't really care to have the goverment involved in my bees. Sometimes it can go well, but other times not so much. Not trying to start a politcal hissing match, just saying.


The West VA Queen Breeders is the organization and was born out of a lot of hard work and political savy and connections. WV also got other USDA Crop Specialty monies.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Is it not funny that most of us deplore Gov't handouts and intervention.............EXCEPT when it benefits us........


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Because w/o the loan you couldn't afford to buy the land you need to expand?


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## oklabizznessman (Oct 24, 2011)

Like my vending business I worked a second job to get started I started with two vending machines and now have two hundred.... I started with part time money and bought two beehives... now over 100... I was really good at breaking vending machines and especially good at killing bees until I learned and still learning in both businesses. I had a sb loan once and what a pain in the butt.... the only thing I want from the government is some accountability and that's never gonna happen


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I think in this day and age you can go onto the internet say some social network and set up your own fund organization that people can donate to, or buy stock in. This will require marketing skills, organizational skills, media communication skills and above all integrity to convince the targeted support group that you are not a scam artist. Think of a Newman's Own brand for bees. Or are you just looking for government funding to make a killing?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

JRG13 said:


> Because w/o the loan you couldn't afford to buy the land you need to expand?




I thought we/you were talking about expanding your beekeeping operation, not your farm. You can expand your BK operation w/o buying land...............


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

JRG13 said:


> Because w/o the loan you couldn't afford to buy the land you need to expand?


I hardly need more land to expand my operation.

Ive been wanting to expand up to about 10 hives (over a 3x expansion for me) but I lack the experience to be successful with pushing splits and raising queens on my own. Otherwise its just way to expensive to buy packages and queens.

I guess the other question is what kind of operation are you talking about getting support for? 

For me to add 7 hives, I would need roughly $1000. A micro loan for $800? or $500? 

If i wanted to push it to say 100 hives, now i need $8-10K for just hives/bees 
A new building to put bottling and extraction in, and a small production uncapping/extracting machine can easly run another $20-25K
So now i need some sort of small business loan for like $30-40K

As you can see there is a distinct difference between a hobby guy wanting to expand 2x or 3x and takeing it all the way to semi-Business.

I do think we could do more with local clubs. Some sort of co-op. have an innital investment of one package of bees and have a larger more experienced beek supply wooden ware and help supervise the hive in a co-op location. This allows you to spread the cost out and grow the operation to payback more individuals (or offset the cost of starup) etc...


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## Captainfester (May 1, 2012)

my buddy started keeping bees and we started a coop, 3 people 3 hives. expanding next year.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Only a fool would borrow money to be a beekeeper. Need to A listen to Dave Ramsey, and B. get a dang lot more experince keeping them.

Would you loan money to a city slicker fora cattle ranch? Bees die faster than Cattle!


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Seems like the successful long term beekeepers have done it the old-fashioned way - get some bees, produce some honey. Sell some honey, plow the money back into expansion. Live frugally as you build your business, no debt. Learn as you go. Mistakes are cheaper when you're small, increases your profit when you're larger. Personally I wouldn't put any money into a coop, or loan program for beekeepers. Way to easy to lose. Nor would I borrow. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Diogenes (Jul 3, 2012)

Worst thing about any kind of government "help" is that it always comes with so many strings attached.

Many loans and grant programs require so much paperwork and documentation, that I really think the bureaucrats running those programs just want to keep the taxes they've taken for themselves and absolutely do not want to disburse any of it to mere taxpayers. 

If the bureaucrats make the paperwork hurdle high enough, they can honestly say that no one applied for the funds.

Me, I'm not interested in depending on a bankrupt government for anything at all. (my opinion)


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I'm not a fan of the government grants I've seen go to beekeeping. I have yet to see one that made as frugal and productive use of the money that one would get if spending their own money.

If you think beekeepers need help, then help them. We volunteer at the state and county level as we as run our own classes and conferences for profit. We almost always have someone we are helping...we don't advertise this, but there is always room or queens for those that are eager and really can't afford it. We've had less good luck with folks that want to trade work for classes...we usually are simply open to those that are motivated but not in a financial position to pay.
If we are going to discuss SARE grants, it is not a complete discussion if we are not going to look at the return on investment....and how private money would be spent differently.
Deknow


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*In my years of beekeeping I have found that there is no help from the Fed, state, county or city governments for new or established beekeepers. I am talking about financial help. Help for people to get into beekeeping (which we desperately need), and for small established beekeepers that would like to expand their beekeeping. New and established beekeepers with none or very limited financial resources.*

So you want taxpayers to give you money so you can start a business...so you can make money off the taxpayers?

*
I am looking for help, information and feedback on how to setup some mechanism for this purpose. 

Any and all feedback will be greatly appreciated.*

This mechanism is already in place, more efficiently, more effectively and without the presence of force and coercion involved once the government get's involved. Getting a loan from the bank for a bee business is no different than getting a loan for any other business. Show them you're turning a profit, your assets and sign on the dotted line. No they won't give you a loan to get started. As I was told many years ago by a banker "We aren't here to put people in business, we are here to support existing ones". Banks aren't venture capitalists and neither should governments be. They both are terrible at this because they don't have the knowledge or ability to invest wisely and with prejudice.

If you want to start a bee business go and ask friends, families or other source of venture capital for money. You could even get loans from yourself, second mortgages, credit cards, title loans etc etc.

This idea that somehow the government can lend money for any cause and it must be "Good" is insane. If it was a good idea to begin with you should have no problem getting money from normal channels. The only time you can't is if you can't show you're going to make any money. Not making money can only be justified as "Good" if you start applying some other values to it like "It's good for the children" or some other completely subjective perspective. If that is going to be the criteria for lending money then by gosh and by golly get out your check books because I've got a whole bunch of good ideas and causes.

~Matt


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Well said MJuric.............


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)

What StevenG said :thumbsup:


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## SRBrooks (Jun 24, 2012)

The Texas Legislature just added bees as part of agricultural use re: Tax Code Section 23.51(2). At least we can get a property tax break if we meet certain criteria. For example, I think we have to have a minimum of 5 acres and a minimum number of hives. We have to produce bee-related products, but we don't have to necessarily establish a business to distribute them. From what I recall, you also have to have written permission from your Home Owners Association and present it to the taxing authority. I don't advertise the fact that I keep bees, so I'm not sure I will pursue this. Everything gets so blown out of proportion when people in this neighborhood get wind of something another resident is doing.

A tax break is at least a good start for what the original poster mentioned, isn't it?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I believe it was Ronald Reagan who said something like "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

if you want to expand, get a loan. Just work that loan into your budget. Keep your costs down. Look for low interest or deffered princple for a year or two. For deferred you might need to look at a farm agency lending. Being Canadian, I do not know what your equivalent is to our FCC or MASC.
Get the loan on Equipement only. Bees have a way of dieing at the oddest times. 
Do not just look at a loan to expand, but also look at the market. Where willl you sell this expanded honey. What do you need to do to sell the expanded honey? We expanded. We took out loans to do it. Still paying it off and have had a hard year to boot. Going to be tough, going to be stressfull. But that is the way of a business. 
Some farm agencys that lend can offer incentives. For us it was a Business Risk Management thing where we got 1% interest off for three years. The trade out was I needed to complete 25 hours a year on courses to improve business knowledge. The other was what we call the young farmers rebate. It applies to loans which farmers under 40 can recieve a % off the loan. Again a small course load. So you see, nothing is for free. Yes, we got some interest cut, but I had to do something in return. 
Farming is a business. Treat it as such and do what the rest of us do....get a loan (or pay cash for it all), get a pencil, a piece of paper and a good eraser and pencil it out.
Grants are for research.
Achieve the dream by doing it the right way


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## efaure (Apr 30, 2012)

What should the grant be about besides opening our hands for equiment? Any ideas? I'm really intrested even though Cali is so broke and it will get laughed-into-the-dump...


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

snl said:


> I believe it was Ronald Reagan who said something like "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"


I like that! Going to keep that one close by


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## Northwest PA Beekeeper (Mar 28, 2012)

schmism said:


> Ive been wanting to expand up to about 10 hives (over a 3x expansion for me) but I lack the experience to be successful with pushing splits and raising queens on my own. Otherwise its just way to expensive to buy packages and queens.
> 
> For me to add 7 hives, I would need roughly $1000.


I'm a 3rd year bekeeper. This Spring I started with 2 hives. I split one of them. That made 3. (The bees make their own queen, they don't need your help.)

I put an ad in the freebie weekly newspaper, and sent out letters to the local pest companies that I would take care of bee swarms. I am now up to 11 hives. (And I had several swarms abscond on me because I didn't put a frame of brood with them.)

So, I've increased by 8 hives, and I surely didn't spend $1000.00 to do it. 

You can buy from Mann Lake:

15 unassembled commercial grade hive bodies @ $15.95 each = $239.25
(200) 2 cases of unassembled frames @ $72.00 per case = $144.00
(200) 2 cases of Rite-Cell Foundation @ $90.00 per case = $180.00
8 hive bottoms @ $13.00 each = $104.00
8 top covers & inner covers @ $26.95 each = $215.60

That adds up to $882.85. I did it even cheaper by finding a woodworker able to make the hive bodies, bottom boards, and top/inner covers even cheaper than Mann Lake.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

StevenG said:


> Seems like the successful long term beekeepers have done it the old-fashioned way - get some bees, produce some honey. Sell some honey, plow the money back into expansion. Live frugally as you build your business, no debt. Learn as you go. Mistakes are cheaper when you're small, increases your profit when you're larger...


 I love this old America! Is it realistic to do this way nowadays? Sergey


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Northwest PA Beekeeper said:


> ...That adds up to $882.85. I did it even cheaper...


 Plus your labor to assemble the hardware, plus shipping, equipment for extraction, storage place ... land (it is not free!)...


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## Ledge (Dec 15, 2010)

cerezha said:


> Plus your labor to assemble the hardware, plus shipping, equipment for extraction, storage place ... land (it is not free!)...


Nor is the experience that he gained from doing it the hard way.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The thing with bees is it's different to a farm. With a farm you have to get the whole thing, ie land, plant, etc. in one hit. Unless you have rich parents a loan is a must.

With bees you can start small but still be profitable, and gradually expand. But if you are not profitable, then probably any grant you get will be wasted. If you are profitable, you can build the business to a point where you can make a good enough case to get a loan, so you can reach your goals quicker but in the knowledge you are profitable enough to repay the loan.

I've seen grant money go to beekeepers, almost always it's wasted and nobody gains.

Another interesting aside, in the Great Depression of the 1930's, my country was hit hard. Massive unemployment, suicides, malnutrition. A huge precentage of businesses went bankrupt. But although there were more than a hundred commercial or semi commercial beekeeping operations at the time, amazingly not a single on of them went bankrupt. The reason - Banks did not consider beehives to be suitable collateral to put up against a loan. Beekeepers could not borrow money. So no beekeeper had debt. Cashflow may have been severely curtailed, but there was nobody threatening to foreclose on them, and one way or another, they were all able to eke out a living till times improved again.


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## GA-BEE (Jan 20, 2004)

Acebird said:


> I think in this day and age you can go onto the internet say some social network and set up your own fund organization that people can donate to, or buy stock in. This will require marketing skills, organizational skills, media communication skills and above all integrity to convince the targeted support group that you are not a scam artist. Think of a Newman's Own brand for bees. Or are you just looking for government funding to make a killing?


You offend me sir with your statement. I want nothing from anybody. If you will read the original post correctly you should note that I am looking for IDEAS to help OTHER beekeepers. The thought never entered my mind. Since it entered yours, you might want to check your conscience.


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## GA-BEE (Jan 20, 2004)

MJuric said:


> *In my years of beekeeping I have found that there is no help from the Fed, state, county or city governments for new or established beekeepers. I am talking about financial help. Help for people to get into beekeeping (which we desperately need), and for small established beekeepers that would like to expand their beekeeping. New and established beekeepers with none or very limited financial resources.*
> 
> So you want taxpayers to give you money so you can start a business...so you can make money off the taxpayers?
> 
> ~Matt


If you will learn to read you will note that what I said was a statement, an observation, not a request. 

Again, I am asking FOR IDEAS, not money. My original thought was how would it be possible to establish a low cost or free way for interested beginners to get started.


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## GA-BEE (Jan 20, 2004)

I apologize for the confusion to some readers by my original post. 

This is what I had in mind originally. 

FOR EXAMPLE ONLY ; Let say that all of the members of a bee club, association, etc. got together and decided they wanted to help new beekeepers and established beekeepers. They then set up a location, place etc. where all of the members stored any type of beekeeping equipment they wanted to donate or make for this cause. Also, that same entity asked for donations, had fundraising, etc. for monies that were placed in a pool regulated strictly for this use.

Then when someone new wanted to get started, or be able to expand, they would have a free or low cost source in order to do so. 

I am not a crook, I am an altruist. I like helping other people for FREE! I am looking for a simple way for beekeepers to help other beekeepers. That is all.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

GA-BEE said:


> I am not a crook, I am an altruist. I like helping other people for FREE! I am looking for a simple way for beekeepers to help other beekeepers. That is all.


No one said you are a crook but if you went on the internet with a program to help others the thought would be there and you would have to deal with it. You asked for ideas and I gave you a few. If you take offence at the ideas you get you won't get very far. I should ad you will need a little determination also no matter what you do.


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## GA-BEE (Jan 20, 2004)

Sir your statement implied that I was looking to make money off of the taxpayers. It's the implication I take offense to. Please reiterate what ideas you gave me. I must have missed them.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Straight up, there are many more starry eyed people who "want to be a beekeeper full time", than there are people who succeed.

What I've seen over the years is out of the people who start, the overwhelming majority quit when the realities of hard work, bee losses, not as much money as in their origional theory, etc, bite, they quit.

Throwing free money / equipment at them is only going to make their crash more spectacular. My belief, is someone wanting to "go fulltime", should work for a commercial beekeeper for at least one year but preferably two. Out of people who have done that, the great majority will succeed if they start their own business. 

Many people ask me how to start a commercial beekeeping business. I tell them to spend a year or two working for a commercial beekeeper to learn the trade, and then start. Almost invariably the response is "oh no, haven't got time". But when I catch up with those people a year or two later, they''ll still be struggling with just a few hives and lack of knowledge, or have quit altogether. So, what would have been faster?

Not to say there are not beekeepers who have started without training and succeeded, because there are. But for each one of those the road is littered with many failures.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I guess I don't understand the question. If you know enough about beekeeping to know what a beginner or expanding sideline needs and you want to help.....then help. Give away hives, run free workshops, offer a scholarship to bee school, dopresentations at schools. I'm not understanding why you are looking for help on how to offer help.

Deknow


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## GeezLouise (Feb 4, 2012)

GA-BEE said:


> In my years of beekeeping I have found that there is no help from the Fed, state, county or city governments for new or established beekeepers. I am talking about financial help.
> ...
> I am looking for help, information and feedback on how to setup some mechanism for this purpose. A co-op, foundation, grants etc. Something along those lines. A source for those who need it to get funds to bee used strictly for beginning their beekeeping enterprise or expanding their beekeeping business .


I'm okay with this (lack of govt funds), am not a fan of using taxpayer money to fund other people so they can make money/have fun/not work. Don't think debt is a tool for success. An extra job delivering pizzas for a month or so could bring in extra cash for someone wanting to bankroll the beginning of a new business venture or hobby. Start small, grow as you learn, pay as you go.



"The government" is us. We the people. Your friends & neighbors, the ~50% that pay income tax. Asking the govt for money is the same as asking your friends & neighbors for money.

In the US, agricultural folks can get advice and information from the Cooperative Extension Service; part of the US Dept of Ag http://www.csrees.usda.gov/about/background.html.


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## GeezLouise (Feb 4, 2012)

GA-BEE said:


> I apologize for the confusion to some readers by my original post.
> 
> This is what I had in mind originally.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a good plan. The money part would have to be managed properly to avoid accountability and tax issues.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deknow said:


> I'm not understanding why you are looking for help on how to offer help.Deknow


I believe he is looking for help on how they would get funding.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*If you will learn to read you will note that what I said was a statement, an observation, not a request.
*

*I am looking for help, information and feedback on how to setup some mechanism for this purpose.*

You're looking for information and feedback on how to set up a a mechanism that will get local, state and or federal governments to give grants and loans to people so they can expand and or get into bee keeping. Is that right? If not I'm not sure that it's my reading comprehension that is at issue here. If so, how does my original posts not apply? About the only thing I can see as not applying would be the "You" part. You want to set up the mechanism for others to get these funds...again, my point stills stands whether the money is for you or anyone else.

~Matt


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I would think that you would need to start by being established as a noon profit organization. I have been involved in this only once and trust me I am not about to volunteer to help in this case. It can be done but it is anything but easy. I hate to say that but it is true. Gives me jitters and quirks just discussing it.

Next I would suggest you target the very people that stand to benefit from such a program. Starting with the suppliers that will profit from the expansion of any business that does start up to the organizations and clubs that will see an increase in membership. you might be surprised by how many organizations already have such programs.

On the issue of what already exists. It might be possible to work on organizing and unifying what is already out there. there is strength in numbers and as groups across the map begin to unite you have some chance that others such a suppliers etc will take notice and hear the collective voice etc. Just a broad picture of what I can think of worthwhile to look into at the very least.

I also see that many people saw government mentioned and assumed that government funds where being sought rather than the clear to me statement you made that since the government won't do it. how can beekeepers make it happen.

I see you have a long hard swim against a current of negativity just among beekeepers alone. I now for a fact that it can be done. I myself have done similar things. just be realistic and prepare to stand the test. I have proposed to do far more ridiculous things and weathered fierce onslaughts from people. that will come. people will perceive you as a threat for many many reasons. you will need to just let that sort of thing wash over and keep moving on.
It helped me to keep in mind a word of wisdom that was once shared with me. don't get caught up in what is not working for others. Many will tell you you can't do this or that. but they are trying to not do it so they should know. what they don't know anything about is how to do it. So you be the how to specialist and let everyone else practice not doing it.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I think you a little negative Daniel. Don't see how anyone would see him as a threat. A threat to what?

Also, if someone says something won't work that does not nessecarily mean they just don't know. It may mean they do know, and they know something won't work. Having said that, nobody has actually said this particular idea won't work. Some cautions have been offered that's all, and should be seen positively sounds like they come from experience.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Oldtimer, I don't suppose you would see it. But I have been there and done it. They are threatened by nothing more than it is different. they will accuse you of putting companies out of business. accuse you of alternative motives. Say you are taking food out the moths of babies and putting hard working citizens out of jobs. They will also come up with every version conceivable of why it will not work and should not be done. just look at this thread if you thin k I am wrong. They will jump to conclusions and put words in your mouth to find reasons to resist change alone.
Negative? I totally agree but then it is not my behavior it is theirs. I am not making it up you can look at this very thread and see it for yourself if you choose to not turn a blind eye to it. I see it for exactly what it is because I have lived through it many times over.

1. I offered over the internet to purchase super glue for crafts people at very low prices. keep in mind these where people that purchased glue in amounts of hundreds of dollars per order. It took me two months to convince enough people to join in order to place one $100 order. You would not believe the non ending stream of flack I got about it. Not to mention what ti took to gain the trust of people on the net. That same program is running still today and has saved people untold thousands of dollars. I started it 8 years ago.

2. I organized the purchase of well over $25,000 in leather goods from India. Now think about the trust issue when India comes into the picture. still the reputation I have built after 7 years of doing such buys drew in over $25,000 in orders. money that was handed to me in advance on nothing but my word. doubt me? then read it for yourself here. http://www.penturners.org/forum/f21/leather-pen-case-group-buy-46429/
I believe it was nearly 8 months and a total nightmare but by that time not one person doubted me. So yeah I know exactly what I am talking about. I did it and came out shining like a star. i still have a reputation with that group. I know what I am talking about when ti comes to making things happen in groups like this and I know what they are going to put you thorough.

I don't know if I can find the thread concerning my first example it is spread out over several sites anyway. I conducted many of these sort of things over an 8 year period. every time I significantly changed how they where done or some obstical that seemed difficult to overcome I would receive the same onslaught of negativity.


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