# Foundation or not?



## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

Not. I went foundationless last year, and have not looked back. It saves money and time, gives you clean natural wax, and the bees build what they want. Yes they will build more drone comb, but after the first round of drone brood, it is usually filled with honey. Which in my opinion, makes a healthier hive of bees. The only drawback is that sometimes the bees will not attach to the bottom of the frame. This calls for a different way of handling the frames during inspection, much like a top bar hive. You can't just go flipping the frames around. Other than that, I doubt I will ever use foundation again.


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## Kiddkop (Sep 18, 2014)

Do you use starter strips? Do you use wire or fishing line? Thanks for info.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I buy the grooved frames and use a quarter inch square dowel glued in a diamond position so one of the corners is pointing down and centered in the frame


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

To get them stared, I will use a starter strip on a few frames. Once they get those going straight, I just put in empty frames next to the straight ones. They will build straight. 
Check out Michael Bush s website. bushfarms.com. He has a whole section on foundationless frames and their benefits.


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## rob6118 (Jul 26, 2014)

First year geek here, started 3 packages late July and couldn't find foundation at any of the suppliers. Wanted to do foundationless anyways just was worried about the late start. Did starter strips of triangular molding, frames are half wired half plain.

1 packages built their comb at a 45° angle to the frames (maybe due to the queen cage twisted in the empty hive?)

Have had one comb break off from loaded syrup, and the comb they have built is a bit wavy in places as they don't religiously follow the starter strip but it is very much useable.

My biggest question is how much slower is it for them versus foundation, I've fed constantly, 50kg of sugar for the three hives, and they are 60-70% drawn and stored at this point and their tendency is to expand horizontally and not finish the comb vertically (perhaps I should have restricted them to their 6 frame nuc longer til they had fully drawn the combs but I didn't want to crowd or slow them).

For me it is cheaper, and simpler, but its also not perfect and its clear the resources it takes the bees to draw, but perhaps that's the same either way you go.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Matt903 said:


> Yes they will build more drone comb


The drones serve a purpose, the bees wouldn't make them if they didn't. I don't even think about the number of drones, they will do their job and get kicked out when that job is done. :thumbsup:



rob6118 said:


> My biggest question is how much slower is it for them versus foundation


It is not any slower for the bees, they will draw comb FAST when they need it.

Also, if you are not using foundation, make sure the hive is 100% level and their comb should be straight. Starter strips of some sort help and make sure you inspect the hive and correct any comb issues early. If you want to make sure they have straight comb you can put two frames with foundation and an empty between.


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## rob6118 (Jul 26, 2014)

thehackleguy said:


> It is not any slower for the bees, they will draw comb FAST when they need it.
> 
> Also, if you are not using foundation, make sure the hive is 100% level and their comb should be straight. Starter strips of some sort help and make sure you inspect the hive and correct any comb issues early. If you want to make sure they have straight comb you can put two frames with foundation and an empty between.


I can see how its not any faster with foundation as the foundation is a very limited amount of wax and some say they hesitate to draw a comb at different dimensions than what they prefer.

Re: straight comb, the hive is well leveled, but in spots they deviate from the starter strip and hence the comb is a bit crooked. Each flaw is replicated in the frame adjacent, and sometimes can create the tendency for cross comb. Of course I try to correct as best I can with a hive tool on very regular inspections, but it is what it is  I have to counter my desire for perfectly straight comb with the desire that they build as much volume for winter storage as quickly as possible. I just wanted to counter any expectations for perfectly straight combs, and of course without any foundation at the suppliers I've yet to try to use foundation to straighten my foundationless setup


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

When you inspect, if the comb is getting off line --> break and pinch the comb back onto the starter strip. Of course this has to be done weekly until everything is straight.

Do you have any beeks close that you can borrow/buy two drawn frame from? That might help.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>My biggest question is how much slower is it for them versus foundation

Foundationless is noticeably faster.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#setback


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## Ryan Williamson (Feb 28, 2012)

I have done countless tests with my own bees putting new supers and hive bodies on with mixtures of pierco plastic(coated with extra wax), crimpwire wax foundation and foundationless frames. Having used over a thousand of each type I can say that my bees DON'T draw foundationless first or faster. On a weak flow foundation is noticeably faster. I was surprised as I keep reading others saying the opposite but my bees certainly don't read what they write. Its too bad as I was in love with the concept.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Save yourself headache and use foundation until you get more experience.


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

First year beek and my 2 cents. I went foundationless and yes when I got my nucs back in April/May, they went bonkers pulling out foundationless frames...all for about a month and a half. then they stopped. Now that I've had a summer of this I can see just how valuable drawn-out foundation is. Because of the LACK of it, it slowed me down in my splits, the bees in having anywhere to store honey, and the Queen for not having anywhere to lay. While I will continue to use foundationless, this winter I will be making up a bunch of frames WITH foundation so that in spring, they'll draw it out and I'll have some resources to do all of the above. Plus getting them to build comb on foundationless is maddening getting them to keep it straight. They're always wanting to build it far thicker than needed and creating problems. If able to stick tween two sheets of foundation...may have gone a lil better.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Santa Caras said:


> I can see just how valuable drawn-out foundation is. Because of the LACK of it, it slowed me down in my splits, the bees in having anywhere to store honey, and the Queen for not having anywhere to lay.


Let us know what happens, I don't think that they will build any faster on the foundation if they don't need (or want) more comb. Did you try to manage them moving down or feeding them to help draw comb?


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

I have a bunch of foundationless frames, thought I would save money (I did) and let the bees draw their own frames out, and they did..........some really nice frames and A LOT OF messed up frames and drone comb!! I put frames between frames of brood, frames of drawn comb and although some hives got it, some of the hives really messed things up, including a whole box of foundationless mediums I was testing as a honey super, the built comb across the frames connecting every frame in the box as one unit!!! Ended up letting the bees rob it out. I bought more Ritecell foundation and will be using it from now on. A little extra cost (actually a lot) but it will be recouped in nuc sales.


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

thehackleguy said:


> Let us know what happens, I don't think that they will build any faster on the foundation if they don't need (or want) more comb. Did you try to manage them moving down or feeding them to help draw comb?


Not every hive did I feed. Only two of em that I had done splits with. This fall....they've built a lil more but not a whole lot. They had PLENTY of reason to build as the boxes of FL were half empty and plenty of room. Came that first hot month of summer and them girls just quit cold turkey. Yeap as a newbee...getting them to stay alive, learning, and to build resources s/b first year objective. (cross my fingers) if everything winters well then I may finally get some honey that I can give my wife and go "SEE!!! I told ya so!"


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Not. Started foundationless early on and have never looked back. Why bother with the wiring and cost when the bees build comb just fine.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I like wooden frames with plastic foundations. Much easier than doing all wax and having to wire the frames to keep the foundation straight while it is being drawn out.

Kiddkop, A question you should ask yourself as you read the recommendation you are receiving, if foundationless is so good, why did foundations become popular back before 1900? In the mid to late 1800s everyone was foundationless. Before 1900 almost all of the great beekeepers of that era had gone to foundations.


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## Kiddkop (Sep 18, 2014)

Excellent point....

I guess one of my thoughts was "fad". For example, SBB became a fad and now people are moving away from it. 

I didn't really know the advantages vs disadvantages of foundation. But it seems like some foundation is needed, even if it is simply a starter strip. My current hive has foundation comb and my 10 drawn frames have foundation...but I wasn't for sure which direction to go beyond that.

I appreciate all the replies and discussion. There are several intelligent individuals that have lt of knowledge to share.


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## Kiddkop (Sep 18, 2014)

Reply fail


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

This spring, I used the technique of "spreading the brood chamber" by inserting foundationless frames. Almost all those frames were built out as drone comb, and the bees raised drone in it. As the drones hatched out of the cells, the bees made more drones in the large cells. And then more drones. I had a huge population of drones. To my eye, it looked like my hives had almost 50% drones. 

I had so many drones it was really hard to find the queen because there were so many big bees in the hives. The huge drone population slowed the production of worker brood, which further slowed the production of more workers, which slowed the production of honey.

Uhg.


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## brandongunn2003 (Jul 7, 2012)

Although I am a new bee keeper I went all foundation less almost from the beginning. I use fishing line to help support the combs. My bees build it out just as fast and mostly straight. I don't use a starter strip and the bees attach it to the top just fine. For me the biggest advantage is not having wax from any other bee keeper in my hive. I am treatment free and know that any wax coated plastic frames or wax foundation has chemicals from bee keepers treating their hives. Good luck.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Almost all those frames were built out as drone comb

Drone comb usually doesn't end up in the middle of the brood nest naturally. They end up on the edges. If you are in the hive and see drone in the middle, move it to the outside. The bees with drone in the middle have to choose. If they fill it with nectar the queen hits a wall of honey and may not go around it. If they don't fill it with nectar she lays it full of drones... usually they fill it with nectar so she won't lay in it, once they have enough drones.


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## KGB (Jun 25, 2014)

Plastic foundation in the honey supers is nice if you extract-less likely to blow out the comb, durable, reusable/rewaxable, impervious to wax moth.

Foundationless in the brood boxes allows the bees to lay what they want.

You may consider using all foundation, then place your foundationless frames between capped frames of foundation to force straight comb building, then rotating out the foundation frames over time, resulting in straight foundationless comb, two or three years from now. Slow and steady wins the race.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

"Foundationless is noticeably faster."

In my experience I have never known that to be the case. As most of us fully realize bees will only drawn comb as the need dictates, depending upon several variables. Advising a new-bee to start the trials and tribulations of beekeeping by letting their bees draw their own natural comb is bad advice in my opinion..kinda like sending a first year little leager out to play third base without a glove. JMHO


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

I went with plastic foundation the first year because that is what I was told was easiest for a beginner. It seemed like they built up really slowly. My second year I tried foundationless and couldn't believe how fast they could build comb. My experience was that they really did not like foundation and would only use it when they decided there were no other options. That decision seemed to take a while for them to get to. I have never gone back to using the foundation.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Advising a new-bee to start the trials and tribulations of beekeeping by letting their bees draw their own natural comb is bad advice in my opinion

I learned to drive on a stick shift. I've never regretted it...


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## bean tree homestead (Nov 18, 2013)

I went with foundationless this year as a new beek and I got to be honest with ya. I made sure my boxes were level and I am using all mediums. My Italians loved the stuff I would say 80-90 percent of all their frames were built well but my carnis seemed to build everything but straight and then they attached all the supper frames with burr comb of different sizes. They also like to stick everything together as well. They took twice as fast to the drone green plastic comb as the Italians did and built it really quick.
So What am I going to do in the future?… Well I will leave foundationless as my norm and move them to plastic if they like going crazy. I know Mr. Bush has a few different types of bees and seems to be successful with all foundationless but I think next year I will cull a few frames from my carni and install plastic with communication holes.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...sheet-of-foundation-in-deep-frames-experiment

This was one of the most successful and neatest things I've done with the bees. It worked perfectly and gave me exactly what I wanted. Reliably drawn comb how & where I wanted it + savings on rite cell foundation costs. I'm extremely picky when it comes to efficiency & the quality of the final product.

I_ only_ use deep frames.


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## Jim-wanna-bee (Nov 18, 2014)

I agree!


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

"The mean rate of drone departure was 4–13 times higher for colonies with drone comb than for colonies without drone comb... drones whereas colonies without drone comb contained noticeably fewer drones. 
in "The effect of drone comb on a honey bee colony’s production of honey*Thomas D. SEELEY, Department of Neurobiology and Behaviour, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853, USA. From Apidologie 33 (2002) 75–86

Bees actually know the number of drones that need ? Apparently , and according to the data mentioned above that number depends also or even more on the type of frames you have in your nest, and not only on a magic number that bees can have in their heads.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have for over 40 years used vertical wired wax foundation with horizontal wires. The bees draw it out much faster than plastic and I get good strong combs with a minimum of drone comb. I have been mentoring beginners with their Ritecell foundation and realize that it substantially delays the hives progress. It takes a strong hive, a good flow or feeding to get it drawn. I get excellent yields due to the over balance of workers versus drones, the reason modern foundationed hives are so much more productive than natural comb hives. 
I like that i can melt down a poor or old comb and start anew, with out the hassle of a plastic foundation. I found that the bees do not take well to a scrapped down Ritecell.
I have worked with several topbar and Warre hives the last two years and am glad they were not part of the beekeeping landscape when I go started. They are fine for a person that wants them, but not for me as I want substantial production for my investment. I consider them a novelty item for entertainment interest in an apiary.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

Santa Caras said:


> They're always wanting to build it far thicker than needed and creating problems. If able to stick tween two sheets of foundation...may have gone a lil better.


When left to their own devices, bees will generally make combs for honey storage thicker than brood comb. This is perhaps more noticeable in a Top Bar Hive - for that reason, we generally add 1/4" spacers between the top bars at the end of the hive where honey is stored. In a TBH with a viewing window it is quite obvious that they quite happily make fat luscious comb for storing honey. Consequently, in my one Lang, I used 9-frame spacers in my supers so they could make the comb the way they like (thicker).


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

Riskybizz said:


> Advising a new-bee to start the trials and tribulations of beekeeping by letting their bees draw their own natural comb is bad advice in my opinion..


For the record, I "started" with both: 2 TBH's and one Lang (into which I added foundationless frames in between frames with built-out foundation). It was the _Lang bees _who started building cross comb into the empty frame! I lopped it off and after that they built out the foundationless frames quite quickly. 

For the TBH's, one package was started in mid-May. They built fine straight comb, but somewhat slowly.

At the beginning of June, I installed a package of Russian hybrids in another TBH and within a WEEK they had built as much comb as the first TBH had done in slightly more than 3 weeks. The hives are about 7 feet apart, so what explains the difference?

By the end of July, both hives stopped building comb, and the last two combs in both hives were never used.

There are just too many factors and variables involved to draw conclusions about foundation vs. foundationless from one season or one hive's performance. One benefit, if you are keeping bees for profit, is that comb honey is highly sought after and brings about $15 for a 4" square - and you have to use foundationless comb for that. 

If you are unsure or angsting over making the wrong decision, you can start with foundation in the Lang and gradually replace a foundation frame with a foundationless frame (make your own or Kelly Bee Supply makes Lang frames to be used without foundation). That way you can get an idea of what's involved in maintaining foundationless frames before making a full-blown commitment.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Ryan Williamson said:


> I have done countless tests with my own bees putting new supers and hive bodies on with mixtures of pierco plastic(coated with extra wax), crimpwire wax foundation and foundationless frames. Having used over a thousand of each type I can say that my bees DON'T draw foundationless first or faster. On a weak flow foundation is noticeably faster. I was surprised as I keep reading others saying the opposite but my bees certainly don't read what they write.


I agree


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

It depends in it's placement.And other factors in come cases.
























































For the most part, they drew out the foundation area first or at least about the same time as the foundationless areas. I was surprised, since so many say, the foundationless frames are far faster to get drawn. I didn't find that with these frames, _except when they were drawing large cells_ 

Basically, they want to start drawing in the center of the new frame and aren't turned off by the foundation so much that they don't do it. Drawing on the foundation nets them _many_ lightly drawn, shallow cells. The foundationless area gives them full sized deep cells, but far less of them until they are complete. The pressure for certain cells may also be a determing factor.

Here's an early April photo where the pressure to provide space for brood was high. With no flow or syrup, resources were tight. If this had been a partial foundation frame, the higher number of shallow cells would have been perferable to a low number of deeper cells.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Lauri - What are those blue gloves you are wearing in your photos?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

People will often exaggerate to promote their theories, agenda, website, book, product sales. Thirty five years ago I listened to the "honey excluder" crowd, gave mine away, learned different and have since then bought one for every hive. There are smart, helpful people on this board but you have to be careful hanging on their every word and test things out for yourself. Flow and location might make a difference.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

shinbone said:


> Lauri - What are those blue gloves you are wearing in your photos?


Thicksters

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=thicksters


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Thicksters - Thanks! Can the bees sting through them?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

odfrank said:


> There are smart, helpful people on this board but you have to be careful hanging on their every word and test things out for yourself. Flow and location might make a difference.


So true! Location, beekeeping goals, traits of bees, personal predilections, outside constraints, seasonal variations, etc., all play a huge role in determining what works from person to person. Lots'a good suggestions on this forum. You gotta read and experiment with an open mind, though, to figure out what works for you.

Forgetting the above is the needless cause of many fights here on Beesource.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

shinbone said:


> Thicksters - Thanks! Can the bees sting through them?


Not very easily. And if they do, it's a shallow penetration. But you feel the bees through the gloves and don't put pressure on them-so you get stung less because of that. Some will say go gloveless, but I have too many hives and work too fast for that. 

The DAY I got thicksters I threw out all my leather gloves. Kitchen gloves work good too, but are thicker and you have less dexterity.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I am a fan of the kitchen gloves, but I am having trouble finding durable ones. It seem the material degrades and cracks form relatively quickly.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

shinbone said:


> Thicksters - Thanks! Can the bees sting through them?


Yes they can but just barely and the stinger stays mostly in the glove and not in the hand. Thicksters work great but are very hot and sweaty.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Have you guys tried using thin cotton gloves inside to prevent / decrease sweating of the hands?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I powder mine_ before_ I wear them so they don't get sweaty. I wear then every day for several hours a day. The moisture isn't bad at all. Take them off inside out and let any moisture dry before the next use & shake out the excess powder. I get several days out of one pair, they are pretty tough.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I think it is easier to start with wax foundation the first year. Then you can do what Lauri does and only use a percentage of foundation letting the bees decide what they want for the rest. It solves the problem of fragile comb and forcing the bees to deal with just worker comb.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

AR Beekeeper said:


> .... Before 1900 almost all of the great beekeepers of that era had gone to foundations.


I would rephrase your argument: foundationless was perfect for ~10 thousand years and than was replaced on foundation. During 100 years of foundation era we observe bees decline, diseases etc. One may think, that 100-years experiment with foundation is enough (on the scale of 10 thousand years bee-human cooperation) and needs to be switched back towards more robust, 10K years foundationless tested by time approach


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Perfect? So, there were no bee diseases in the foundationless era? What about Black Brood...aka...American Foulbrood Disease?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>.. Before 1900 almost all of the great beekeepers of that era had gone to foundations.

I seriously doubt that. I would bet foundation didn't even catch on much until the 1920's or so. Moses Quinby certainly was not using foundation in 1900 and was not even using movable frame hives... and I would say he was one of the greatest, and certainly one of most profitable. ABC XYZ of Bee Culture was still lecturing people on not using starter strips in almost every edition I have, so there were a lot of people who were not buying the concept who Root felt needed to be "converted".


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Before you can solve a problem, you have to _CORRECTLY_ identify the actual problem.

I am totally neutral in the foundation/foundationless debate. They both have advantages and disadvantages. I like and dislike them both at times.

But to blame the majority of bee health/decline on _foundation_, in an era that has a tremendous overload of toxic exposures & reduced natural forage, would be a real stretch. 

Trying to solve the_ wrong_ problem will get you nowhere. Sometimes all you have to go on is your gut. But keep an open mind to other possibilities or your theories may lead you down the wrong path.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Moses Quinby was not using foundation in 1900, he died in 1875. 

If anyone wants to read about foundation versus foundationless they should read the older issues of the ABJ or Bee Culture. The beekeepers that were against foundations in the 1870s and 80s had started using it by the 1890s. Those beekeepers included Dr. C. C. Miller, W. Z. Hutchinson and G. M. Doolittle, all well known beekeepers of that time. Hutchinson was strongly against using foundation early, but was writing in the American Bee Journal in the late 1890s about the benefits of using foundation.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I think Hutchinson is the most interesting in this regard. In Advanced Bee Culture, he talks about the advantages and disadvantages...and why and where both would be used in the same hive.
you can find it on Google books, we keep a PDF on our site.http://www.beeuntoothers.com/Advanced_bee_culture.pdf


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

deknow said:


> I think Hutchinson is the most interesting in this regard. In Advanced Bee Culture, he talks about the advantages and disadvantages...and why and where both would be used in the same hive.
> you can find it on Google books, we keep a PDF on our site.http://www.beeuntoothers.com/Advanced_bee_culture.pdf


221 pages long. Can you give us a couple sentence summary?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

My HexPlex Pagoda hive has both foundation and fixed top bars. I might convert the frames to foundationless on the next go around. I already had a huge amount of drones with the seven worker foundation frames and the foundationless on the sides. After it swarmed, the remaining population was about 75% drones. 

http://s156.photobucket.com/user/odfrank/library/Hex Plex Pagoda?sort=2&page=1


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I have not had a chance to read the book, but in an article written in the ABJ in 1891, Hutchinson said he hived swarms on foundationless frames and had comb or foundations in the honey super. He stated the bees drew the foundation in the super faster than they did the foundationless in the brood chamber. This caused the incoming honey to be stored in the super. The foundationless frames would be drawn as fast as the queen was able to lay in them, but the honey would be stored above in the super, giving the beekeeper maximum yield.

He only hived swarms on 5 frames because if they had more than 5 foundationless frames in the brood nest they failed to properly draw the outside frames. He stated that perfect brood frames were a necessity, and comb drawn on foundations could be used in any position in the brood nest. He named several other beekeepers of notable reputation that used foundation. He did say that his foundationless frames were mostly drawn out in worker cells, but he said he doubted that most beginning beekeepers would have the same success.

His goal was maximum yield, a hobby beekeeper today would probably be more interested in having the swarm build up for winter. This would require the brood nest to build to 10 frames and a super for a food chamber. We use the same comb both for brood and for the bee's food so we need them to be as perfect as possible. By having the comb all worker size cells and any drone cells on dedicated drone frames, it helps slow the rate of the varroa mites population.


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## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

In essence, try foundation and foundationless. Try wax, try plastic. Decide what you prefer. They all have their pros and cons. Now that you have everyone's opinions, get a feel for what you prefer.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Perfect? So, there were no bee diseases in the foundationless era? What about Black Brood...aka...American Foulbrood Disease?


Michael, my point was that the argument that people (some) switch from foundationless to foundation and keep doing, so can not be a proof that this approach (foundation) is better that other approaches. Apparently, bees did quite well before foundation. As for diseases, yes, bees as other living creatures always had some diseases - apparently, they managed to survive. Other species - gone. The role of human in bee's surviving is questionable. 100 years ago it was revolutionary to switch to foundation. It seems to me that nowadays, there is is a movement to use "natural cell size" and "natural beekeeping." Hobbyist people like myself, took a risk and try different approaches in bee-"having." My logic here is that if I, inexperienced hobbyist can keep bees for 4-5 years against all beekeeping orthodox dogmas and bees doubled in number (and produce honey) even with all my loses, than, it simply meant (to me) that this "natural beekeeping" approach make some sense. I do not impose my method to anybody, but show my bees top-bars. They are speaking for themselves. If you can find on my pictures any sign of disease or problem - I would greatly appreciate your input. 

I have to admit, that my approach is heavily influenced by Michael Bush. Thank you Michael!


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Lauri said:


> ...But to blame the majority of bee health/decline on _foundation_, in an era that has a tremendous overload of toxic exposures & reduced natural forage, would be a real stretch. ..


The point here is that some believe that foundationless approach causes less accumulation of the toxic and disease substances in comparison to foundation, coupled with re-using the frames with comb. In another words, some believed, that minimizing the toxic substances accumulation in the beehive can be advantageous for bee-health. It is quite obvious approach - we all are trying do not accumulate toxins in our houses. Sometime, in order to achieve this, the "revolutionary" methods must be applied - for instance lead-paint was forbidden along with leaded gasoline for the cars; people are aware of formaldehyde-emitting from some building materials...


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Nice Ollie


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

cerezha said:


> I would rephrase your argument: foundationless was perfect for ~10 thousand years and than was replaced on foundation. During 100 years of foundation era we observe bees decline, diseases etc.


In Portugal varroa came in the mid-80s. Until that existed here many beekeepers with little boxes made ​​of cork , and foundantionless . These boxes are called " cortiços ". You can see pictures of "cortiços" and harvesting here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8xxv_LFAP0

With the advent of varroa mites in my country was a huge raid the "cortiços" suffered , massive colony losses . 

The big problem of "cortiços" was certainly not the foundations, because it was foundantionless . Was varroa.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> ...The big problem of "cortiços" was certainly not the foundations, because it was foundantionless . Was varroa.


Eduardo, I have no problem with your statement, but I can "twist" it in this way: after huge varroa loses, some bees survived ... which bees? Many - feral, foundationless... we can continue these arguments forever... My approach is to provide healthy conditions to my bees in hope that it can help them to fight diseases. Unfortunately, it can not help against pesticides


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

cerezha said:


> but I can "twist"


I already know your ability to distort facts and numbers.
It is not for you that I wrote what I wrote . It is for those begginers who you can influence.

Here in Portugal the turning point was when the varroa arrived here. The foundations were already used around here for many years ago and we never saw the massive losses colony as when the varroa arrived, with and without foundantions. 

Here almost there are no ferals. The only ferals that I have picked are mostly from of my hives .
Never caught a feral swarm out of the swarm season. And why? This tells me a lot. And who notices a little bit of beekeeping realize what I'm saying.

Now this is for you : saying what you said only discredits and disparages all permapicultura concepts, and it does not deserve to have a champion so helpless.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> ... what you said only discredits and disparages all permapicultura concepts, and it does not deserve to have a champion so helpless.


 Eduardo, I really do not think that I did anything, which can disregard Oscar Perone. I have deep respect to his approaches. In fact, my top-bars in Lang's body is very similar to what Perone did at the beginning of his method. If any of my statements can be interpreted as a disregard to Oscar Perone - I apologize for that. I deeply respect Oscar Perone, but he somehow disappears from horizon. Anybody know what happens?


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> it does not deserve to have a champion so helpless.


I ask you to excuse me the last words I wrote and that I quote .

However... distort reality almost to absurdity so that it fits in our convictions is not the way forward to defend our point of view , IMO.

For Oscar Perone I talked to him about 2 years ago . Since then I do not know anything about him.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Hi Eduardo
All our (mine at least) life is absurdity to some degree. When I started beekeeping, I was trying to be a "good" beekeeper. So, I attended bee-club, took bee-classes etc. My bees were feral and a little bit protective. When I ask for help in my bee-club, the respond was re-queen, requeen!!! In the classes, they teach us mainly how to use chemicals to treat the bees. Soon, I realized that the way how it works (in my situation) is that you need to follow all rules or you are "enemy." There is no space for other solutions. The universal solution is to re-queen and treat, treat, treat... To me THIS was an absurd! I decided to see if there are other ways - surprise, there ARE many ways of keeping bees including Perrone, Rose, Mickhael Bush, "slavic hives"... I adopted what is suitable to my situation. I do not think that foundationless is panacea, but I love it! It seems to me that my bees are doing well. Everyone must decide what is the best for him/her and bees. Ironically, I do recommend the standard Lang beehive for beginners. I am not against it, but I do see advantages (to me) in using other approaches.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Hello Sergey . 
Although one or another disagreement I had with you, I believe one thing at least unites us : we are both looking for a clean exit for our bees ( and I think also for ourselves ) from a situation they did not create. We did them " offer " varroa there are decades ago .

Between us , and inspiring me in a great portuguese poet, Fernando Pessoa , I can say that your difference expresses a potential that I have in me. If we are sensitive we can see in the other what we are also , and perhaps still unknown .
Good luck for your project and congratulations on your beautiful pictures of your hives and frames of honey.

My poor English limited my expression .


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Of coarse we all want the best for our bees (and for us)! All my neighbors are converted into bee-lovers (besides that two hives somehow were poisoned, not enough honey-bribe may be?). People saw my beehives from the street and come to tell me how their parents/grandparents used to have bees and how much they love bees! It is very positive and hopeful. My small City of Santa Monica permits two beehives on property (better than nothing). Meantime, the great City of Los Angeles prohibits beehives! My (former) bee-club is against to keep bees in Los Angeles. Their rationale is that hobbyists like me would keep bees improperly and it will compromise the entire beekeeping association. My personal mission with bees is to keep them healthy and alive in urban setting. It is difficult because I have no leverage - small number of hives, but we are surviving 5th year! Interestingly, my bees are becoming popular - people wanted to buy my bees all time. One Hungarian guy drew 100 miles one way to get my bees. Unfortunately, our property is too small for bigger operation or for queens rearing... I am trying to do what I can 
Have great Holidays and good luck with your bees!!!!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

cerezha said:


> All my neighbors are converted into bee-lovers


Then convince one of them to let you put two hives on their side of the line and you can better sustain the two you have, no worries for losses.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Then convince one of them to let you put two hives on their side of the line and you can better sustain the two you have, no worries for losses.


It is exactly what happened. My neighbor had 4 beehives and city told him to remove two from the property. He offered them to me and I gladly accept bees. When my bees swarmed in my nuc, we offered bees to another neighbor - he has 2 beehives as well now. There is another neighbor is waiting for extra bees. So, yes, we have a little leverage between all ours hives. When original bees tragically died, we managed to replace them from my stock. Usually I have extra beehives from swarming (they always swarm into my "special" nuc). They stay and when full-size beehive - go to neighbor's place or I sell them. The trick is that everyone wants to be a beekeeper. It is not like my beehives on somebody's territory  We have nice small bee-community. We have meetings in the alleyway and we had mead testing event for all our neighbors. We had 4 different meads (all honey) and each mead find its drinker  

Except this recent accident when two my best beehives were killed (poisoning???), our bees are doing great, they definitely have feral roots and partially africanized. They are peaceful as long as you do not destroy their nest. They are great honey-producers. They are not treated and they are mostly foundationless. One neighbor bought the whole set with frames and foundation - he used it up and now he is adding foundationless frames simply because he run out of foundation. In hobbyist approach - we can do stuff, which more serious beekeepers can not 

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone! Let bees stay with you and let's be grateful that bees provide food and support to many of us as Indians provided support to pilgrims.


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