# African Bees or Not? Need Advice Soon Please.



## beenut46 (Nov 12, 2011)

How close to other houses? If you keep them need to take to the country away from others and change out the queen in the spring unless you can find one now.


----------



## Riverratbees (Feb 10, 2010)

Requeen as soon as possible so you don't have to worry and no one has to worry about getting hurt.


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

If they are mean, runny, beard on the outside of the hive, or if the hive you removed was all brood/eggs with very little stores - get them a new queen. Queens are going to be running a little short this time of year, may have to wait until Spring. I have several hives awaiting new queens. I keep them in a yard isolated from the public. I deal with suspect bees all the time - though your Texas bees are much more Brazilianized. 

Remember, all bees bump your bee suit hood when you take apart their home.


----------



## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Paul McCarty said:


> If they are mean, runny, beard on the outside of the hive, .


Hehehehe,

Here's a trap-out I have going in Florida at the moment.

Aren't they beautiful?:


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

That's awesome! Telltale sign... 

...unless they simply haven't found the trap hive yet. That looks like beard to me though.

You should name your trap "patches". What's the newspaper for or is that some sort of shower curtain?


----------



## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Paul McCarty said:


> That's awesome! Telltale sign...
> 
> ...unless they simply haven't found the trap hive yet. That looks like beard to me though.
> 
> You should name your trap "patches". What's the newspaper for or is that some sort of shower curtain?


That trap hive has been there for several weeks. That photo is only several days old. So yes, they have found and taken up residence in my hive that I placed near the trap-out on the house outside wall.

Here's a video from Sept 21st when I first placed the trap-out cone on the house:







As far as the roof, well, the REAL roof isn't being used. It's a long story, but I went with the tarp roof for this application because it's sealed really well and would be better suited for a fast removal in the evening when all the bees are inside. Once the hive is situated permanently, I will place the original roof back on.

Here's a photo of this top bar hive moments after I slapped it together with spare wood I found laying around my garage and attic and the culled-wood cart at Home Depot:


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Around here I've often had to deal with bees that are likely AHB. Many are runny, beard around the upper outer edge of supers, cluster on the bottom edge of combs/frames and drop to the ground in clumps. When you try to shake bees from frames and into supers, most become airborne immediately and fly where they choose to go. Though they exhibit the traits I just mentioned and some others, they don't always behave extremely aggressively, which is good. In other words, they can have many of the AHB traits, yet not have the extreme responsiveness to alarm pheromone, that AHB are notorious for - which can be a good thing. I would requeen them anyway.

I also have queens available - raised from imported breeder queens, most all year long.


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Here is my trap, and the last bees I used it on. Sort of an AMM type bee. Very mean too.









My trap is a screened box that can hold 12 frames. It has a coned entrance on the back and a front entrance with a closable door. There is also an internal door to bypass the cone. Very similar to a Hogan Swarm Harvester, but laid out a bit different. I pulled about 15 lbs of bees out of this trap-out when all was said and done. The cluster was about 2 1/2 feet wide and barely fit in the trap box.


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Definitely re-queen if you run across bees that have the traits Joseph Clemens mentioned. They just make beekeeping difficult and no fun even if they are not aggressive.


----------



## Truetide (Oct 6, 2012)

When I approached the hive in question there wasn't a group of guard bees milling around the opening or the general area. The bees were just coming and going. When transferring the comb to the frames, I was able to brush or shake off the bees into the nuc and most of them stayed there. When I scooped up the remaining bees in the valve box with a paper cup most of them went willing. I don't understand what runny means yet.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I only know what I've read about AHB, but my understanding is they seem like most other bees until the alarm pheromone is released. At which point they lose there collective minds. I don't recommend that you get a sting just to see the response though. 

If they are mean I would re-queen regardless of the lineage of the bees, but that is just me. Other people claim that mean bees make more honey. I don't believe that to be the case, but if there is a study showing it I will stand corrected. 

You may want to re-queen (Sounds like Joseph Clemens has queens!) just so you know what you have. And the upshot is in the spring all the old bees would have died so you would have a new hive with a new queen and new bees.

If you do re-queen you could put the old queen in a nuc with some brood and workers as an insurance policy.


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Runny bees are bees that run all over the comb like ****roaches when the light switch is flipped on. They drip off the frame in big clumps and fall to the ground. They also run around and around inside the hive trying to escape the beekeeper and the smoke. They are "panicked" bees. They are like a "fear biter" dog and very unpredictable. Feral bees - AHB in particular, are known for it. The old AMM black bees are like that too, but years of hybridizing has diluted it somewhat. The AHB still has it strong from years of being totally wild.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Most colonies become defensive when you do a cutout on them... if they are still defensive after they settle down will be the test. It never hurts to put them somewhere out in the country first and see if they do settle down.


----------



## captaintat2 (Oct 27, 2012)

What's this about bearding?? The top photo caught my attention when I saw the beard at the bottom of the nuc. I recently captured a feral colony and several days after putting them in my yard found a beard on the bottom of the hive. I thought it was a swarm that came to jin the queen-less colony so I caught it and put it in with the rest. Was I wrong in thinking it was a swarm? Why do they beard like this?


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

captaintat2 said:


> What's this about bearding?? The top photo caught my attention when I saw the beard at the bottom of the nuc. I recently captured a feral colony and several days after putting them in my yard found a beard on the bottom of the hive. I thought it was a swarm that came to jin the queen-less colony so I caught it and put it in with the rest. Was I wrong in thinking it was a swarm? Why do they beard like this?
> 
> View attachment 4073


I am not sure this is a beard. It does look like a small swarm. One possiblility is that the bees may be clustering around where they smell the queen through the wire mesh. I have seen that happen before.

Most of the bearding I have seen with Africanized bees involves a general collar of bees around the hive or entrance. It is normal to have a few bees hanging out on the entrance, but with Africanized bees there are hundreds if not thousands, just sort of hanging out there. I have walked up to wild hives of them and seen this near the entrance hole. First time I ever saw it, I thought to myself - "what are all those bees doing hanging out on this wall?" - Then they attacked me en-masse. Hundreds all at once. I think this bearding is part guarding and part climatic due to the large number of bees in the hive. 

If you open the lid, they all come out of the hive and form a ring around the top of the hive - thousands of them. That is the classic AHB collar - though they don't always attack.

I have some bees I suspect to have a high level of AMM genetics, and they do some similar stuff, but not nearly as pronounced. They mostly sit and guard the entrance like a hawk. You'll see lots of little heads sticking out looking at you if you approach it. If you touch it - they'll chase you to the truck! I use them to guard my other bees.


----------



## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Paul

I have read your posts here numerous times of your suspicions of possible AMM feral strains in your location. Just wondering if this theory has ever been confirmed by DNA analysis as it would be interesting to find out.


----------



## captaintat2 (Oct 27, 2012)

Paul, Thanks for the input. I also thought that it could be a small swarm. When I removed these from the bottom of the hive there was a bit of wax activity which wouldn't make sense if the bees came from this hive. I'm going to call it a swarm and feel good about it, that has more promise of having a queen.
I set out some hard candy for an open feeding and spent the afternoon vacuuming them up. I waited until dark and added them to the hive,(about 30,000 bees in all). I then plugged the entrance with grass for five days to help them 'feel at home', so far they are still with me. I had to leave the island for five weeks and will look for a queen when I get back. They should be ready to split by then.


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Riskybizz said:


> Paul
> 
> I have read your posts here numerous times of your suspicions of possible AMM feral strains in your location. Just wondering if this theory has ever been confirmed by DNA analysis as it would be interesting to find out.


I have in fact had them tested - they show up as EHB. The tests don't get any more specific than that. I have my suspicions, though nothing empirical. I just know they have no African genetics, and they behave differently than my regular EHB bees. They look like old school Carnies, but don't act like them - nor do they act like my Italians. Dark and mean.

I have done a fair amount of research into this at this point, and there have been records of this type of bee living here in the past. More likely they are descended from the Spanish/Iberian bee. It's a bit surprising to me that the African element of their genetics doesn't show up if this is the case.

Otero County had a beekeeping industry years ago (in my town), but it all collapsed shortly after WWII. Not sure how prevalent Italian genetics were in this area, as it is quite remote and importations would not have been very heavy. It is possible these bees are a holdover population that bred with the leftovers of the Spanish colonists. I have found these bees in very, very, remote areas - mostly places with no history of beekeeping and normally very high up - like 8000' or so. Just my unscientific observations.


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

captaintat2 said:


> Paul, Thanks for the input. I also thought that it could be a small swarm. When I removed these from the bottom of the hive there was a bit of wax activity which wouldn't make sense if the bees came from this hive. I'm going to call it a swarm and feel good about it, that has more promise of having a queen.
> I set out some hard candy for an open feeding and spent the afternoon vacuuming them up. I waited until dark and added them to the hive,(about 30,000 bees in all). I then plugged the entrance with grass for five days to help them 'feel at home', so far they are still with me. I had to leave the island for five weeks and will look for a queen when I get back. They should be ready to split by then.
> 
> View attachment 4074


I just noticed you location - Honduras. This may be a usurpation swarm from an Africanized hive. I have seen several of them in my yards. Pretty sure most of the bees you'd be dealing with down there would have African genetics - they would be inclined to throw these small swarms from time to time - not a big deal if all your hives are African to begin with.


----------



## captaintat2 (Oct 27, 2012)

Paul McCarty said:


> I just noticed you location - Honduras. This may be a usurpation swarm from an Africanized hive. I have seen several of them in my yards. Pretty sure most of the bees you'd be dealing with down there would have African genetics - they would be inclined to throw these small swarms from time to time - not a big deal if all your hives are African to begin with.


Paul, Thanks for your comments. I mostly was wanting to learn about their behavior, swarm/beard or what. I'm sure that all of the bees here are AHB and I really don't mind dealing with them. Just suit up and get on with it.


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

captaintat2 said:


> Paul, Thanks for your comments. I mostly was wanting to learn about their behavior, swarm/beard or what. I'm sure that all of the bees here are AHB and I really don't mind dealing with them. Just suit up and get on with it.


We have a lot of them here near the Mexican border too. I don't think they are nearly the boogeyman they are made out to be. They are just wild bees in the end. Personally, I think a lot of the hype was spread by people with an interest in killing off bees, and from fear.


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

When I adopted feral bees, my great concern was safety my neighbors since we are in urban area. I asked for advise my local bee-club and everybody suggested re-queen. The argument was that SoCal is "africanized" and thus, all feral bees are AHB. I took the risk and decided to give them a chance - those bees ARE protective, but they do not exhibit typical AHB behavior described above in this thread. I am living with these bees for more than a year. Beehives are situated 20' from the house and 10' from my morning tea-place in the garden. Nobody was re-queened. I got stung occasionally 1-2/mo. Neighbor's gardener was stung once. After deep invasive inspection 2-3 bees patrols my backdoor for a few days - I learned that I have to plan my outdoor parties with bees in mind. 

I feel it is not right to eliminate feral genetics just because of suspicions on AHB. AHB is already here and we need learn how to live with it. Frequent re-queening eliminates local useful traits and made bees more vulnerable (sometime) to deceases etc. One need to understand that re-queening - effectively replace one colony to another. Sergey


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

cerezha said:


> ...snip... - I learned that I have to plan my outdoor parties with bees in mind...snip...


Sergey, I have aa good area for bees close to my patio area, please tell me more about your 'planning' for outdoor parties.


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Lburou said:


> Sergey, I have aa good area for bees close to my patio area, please tell me more about your 'planning' for outdoor parties.


 Well, there are two aspects: bees and humans.
From bees prospective, we do not do inspection in close proximity to the party's date. Normally, MY bees calmed down within 2-3 days after inspection... If bees do not cooperate - we plan the party after 4 p.m. Also, it is important to "train" them by having "morning-tea" in the garden 10' away from bees as often as bees permitted (normally every day) 
Humans need to be trained also - mainly by consuming bee-products including the mead!

I think, my situation is slightly special because our tiny property is on the steep slope of the hill. So bees are on the narrow terrace facing open space, the street. The house and backyard/garden are behind the beehives and we hardly see any bees in the garden, which is disappointing because bees supposed to pollinate my garden...

Sergey


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Thank you cerezha. I may use my area for some NUCs this Spring, NUCs are ususally less aggressive than strong hives.


----------



## Bees In Miami (Nov 30, 2012)

Truetide: I live in an area where AHB's is a concern, also. I haven't been long at this, but from what I have been told by the much more experienced Beeks, you WILL know when it is a true Africanized hive, right from the very first puff of smoke. Getting popped off the veil or suit is to be expected doing a removal. I haven't done too many removals, but enough to realize defending their colony is to be expected. Please don't judge the temperament of the hive and queen based on behavior during a removal, JMHO. Let them repair and recoup, and re-assess in a few weeks. A couple of my most gentle hives were b-tch-s at removal, and some of my most aggressive/protective hives now were like a purring kitten at removal. As (I think) G3 says 'Bees will be bees and do as they please'! As somebody else mentioned, I think the AHB thing, though real, has been used as such a fear tactic by PCO's that the bees are getting (still...again...) a bad rap. They are after all, wild creatures, that are created to maintain and defend their colony. Relax a bit for now, and time will tell. Again, this is JMHO....this plus $ 0.50 will net you .50! I hope they turn out to be a wonderful colony for you! Time will tell....patience, grasshopper. It really didn't sound like they went "nuts" on you during the removal...from what I have been told, Africanized bees will swarm you and chase...and chase...and chase... Again, I can only go by your description, but it sounds like the bees were doing what they were supposed to do, and though defending, weren't overly aggressive. JMHO. Best to you! Keep us posted!


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Bees In Miami said:


> Truetide: I live in an area where AHB's is a concern, also. I haven't been long at this, but from what I have been told by the much more experienced Beeks, you WILL know when it is a true Africanized hive, right from the very first puff of smoke.


Not sure how they are in other regions, but the ones around here are quite watered down genetically. It can be a bit difficult to tell them from regular honeybees. Some of the most aggressive hives I have ever removed turned out to be EHB after the genetic test results came back.

The biggest indicators for me have normally been the bearding trait, lack of honey in the brood nest, and the fact that they are hellaciously runny on the comb. The aggression trait I have found to be unreliable.

Normally, I do a removal and let them sit for about a month - when I open them up again and they are horribly runny, I know what I am dealing with... usually before the test results are back.

However... AMM have many of the same traits - hard to distinguish sometimes, and they are still out there in isolated pockets. I have also found Russian-ish bees to share some of the same traits - just my opinion.


----------

