# Did you know Cuba is treatment-free bee island? It is.



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> https://www.beeculture.com/beekeeping-in-guantanamera/


Interesting article, GregV. I enjoyed the read. There were two other comments in the article that were interesting to me:

_"Annual re-queening is mandated for each colony due to the fact that some 12 honey plants in the country produce an almost continuous nectar flow. Queens in essence are “worn out” due to extended egg laying for twelve-month periods. Combs are renovated after fifteen brood cycles, sent to Apicuba for wax rendering, and returned along with replacement foundation to the beekeeper."

"Researchers on Fernando de Noronha off the coast of Brazil known for European honey bees surviving Varroa without treatment have concluded: “We predict that this honey bee population is a ticking time-bomb, protected by its isolated position and small population size. This unique association between mite and bee persists due to the evolution of low Varroa reproduction rates. So the population is not adapted to tolerate Varroa and Deformed Wing Virus, rather the viral quasispecies has simply not yet evolved the necessary mutations to produce a virulent variant.”"_


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> Interesting article, GregV. I enjoyed the read. There were two other comments in the article that were interesting to me:
> 
> _"Annual re-queening is mandated for each colony due to the fact that some 12 honey plants in the country produce an almost continuous nectar flow. Queens in essence are “worn out” due to extended egg laying for twelve-month periods. Combs are renovated after fifteen brood cycles, sent to Apicuba for wax rendering, and returned along with replacement foundation to the beekeeper."
> 
> "Researchers on Fernando de Noronha off the coast of Brazil known for European honey bees surviving Varroa without treatment have concluded: “We predict that this honey bee population is a ticking time-bomb, protected by its isolated position and small population size. This unique association between mite and bee persists due to the evolution of low Varroa reproduction rates. So the population is not adapted to tolerate Varroa and Deformed Wing Virus, rather the viral quasispecies has simply not yet evolved the necessary mutations to produce a virulent variant.”"_


Yes; I noticed the same.

I immediately thought - the 12 months of non-stop brooding is actually an *ideal situation* for the mite explosions.
Can you imagine NO natural brood breaks whatsoever?
Crazy.
No AHB either.
Just EHB mutts - all they have.
And yet ....

Speaking of the ticking-bomb predictions - I ignore such predictions - it would have happened long ago.
What is "protected isolated position"? - They ALREADY have mites; for like 25 years.
Small population size? - that only should allow for the population crash faster.
Well, 25 years later in tropical, non-AHB zone they still have bees - the bomb should have exploded many times over by now.
Chances are good the "bomb" prediction itself is just not that good.

For sure, they have NOT been selecting for the most hardy mites these 25 years.
An interesting thought.

I rather feel this is another case similar to Far Eastern Russia in making (much faster too - tropical, no winter location - faster by about x3).


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Good points, GregV. While I defer widely to those who are studying the dynamics closely, in my mind one must also weigh heavily the fact that they are betting their market (distorted as it may be) on the TF paradigm- so there must be adequate resiliency there (at least from the perspective of state-sponsored wholesaler) to not change what they are doing based on a potential 'crash'.

Thanks again for the good article- I enjoyed the read.

Russ


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Just EHB mutts - all they have.


nope
State run queen selection program and your required to by every thing from them, and sell you honey at $0.50 a pound or less to them... 
Its certainly one way to shift the genetics of an island

It is worth noteing it was IMP not Bond that created the bees 
https://www.apiservices.biz/en/arti...y/1972-cuban-bees-selection-varroa-resistance


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> nope...


MSI, a great find, this Cuban PDF. 
Good document.

I meant - they do not have AHB and its associated properties (like on Puerto Rico) per what I read.
The article says - only EHB (which are mutts).
All EHB on Western hemisphere are mutts, like it or not; they basically have their own Cuban bees developed.
The only pure bees left are found at their original locations (even that is under pressure of long distance bee sales).

Right from your document - there is a strong confirmation of a local mutt population - as old as the Russian Far Easter mutt population and maybe older even.


> - Honey bees are in Cuba for *near 250 years.*
> - No bee imports is permitted.


Sounds like they treated by chems at the very onset of the Varroa.
Just on a limited basis, due to tight funding.
At that rate, it was not even worth doing - that piece-meal treatment.


> - After first massive mortality Varroa provoked in 1996, follows wild and commercial population recovery process.
> - To “treat” Cuban hives were registered and purchased two products: first Bayvarol® strips (flumetrine) and tree years later ApiLifeVar (essential oils).
> Was tested CheckMite+® (coumafos), (Demedio et al.2004).
> - Those products were acquired mainly to be used in crisis situations, economical possibilities didn’t allow buying for all hives.
> - The strategy to rear new queens from surviving hives reinforced the general strategy to fight pest.


I don't care of the proclaimed official selection efforts - they have local mutt presence and this presence will not go away.
That is really their foundation, on the island.
(very likely tons of feral mutts in the bush all over, which are impossible to eradicate, especially in the tropics with no winter and the bees surviving under a branch).


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Given the scope and scale of the breeding and requeening program leading to improvements in honey yield and Varroa resistance I would argue they are much closer to something like buckfast or the USDA Russian program. Add in the island isolation and they are likely becoming close to there own sub species as is being sujested with the PR gAHB.

mutts mean the bees have no pedagree and are not being bred to any standard.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> Given the scope and scale of the breeding and requeening program leading to improvements in honey yield and Varroa resistance I would argue they are much closer to something like buckfast or the USDA Russian program. Add in the island isolation and they are likely becoming close to there own sub species as is being sujested with the PR gAHB.
> 
> mutts mean the bees have no pedagree and are not being bred to any standard.


All the USDA Russian program did - persisted the random mutts they imported from a couple of villages.
Then they "labeled" them and sold under a trade-mark.
Just marketing..

If I could freely bring the queens from there I very well just bring the original Russians next spring (while on vacation).
Could be lining up some bees right now over the internet from some locals.
I'd label them "Russians-2020".
And sell.

PS: I know, I know - I trivialize things; but the basics are pretty darn close.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> All the USDA Russian program did - persisted the random mutts they imported from a couple of villages.
> Then they "labeled" them and sold under a trade-mark.
> Just marketing..


thats not in the least what was done (and I think you know it )
They took a base stock selected it and made a breed.
https://www.ars.usda.gov/southeast-.../docs/release-of-usda-ars-russian-honey-bees/
That breed has been maintained threw testing, controlled mating, and DNA analyzed.

You don't call a black lab a mutt because it shows several wolf subspecies in a DNA test, realy that is to be expected in a breed, drawing traits form several origins 
A black lab is a black lab do to its pedigree and it meeting the breed standards.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> thats not in the least what was done (and I think you know it )
> They took a base stock selected it and made a breed.
> https://www.ars.usda.gov/southeast-.../docs/release-of-usda-ars-russian-honey-bees/
> That breed has been maintained threw testing, controlled mating, and DNA analyzed.
> ...


MSL, 

You see - the owners of the Russian bee proper (I am talking of the Russians, including the Russian academia) are still debating IF the Far Eastern bee population can be *considered a sub-species or not.*
The population itself is still in early stages of forming and cross-hybridization (less than 200 years since the origination).
It is too young and has many inputs (for sure - mellifera, macedonica, caucasica, ligustica, carnica, and maybe more due to uncontrolled importations; pretty sure the importations not longer occur).

It seems that the general trend is now to call those Russian bees - a "primitive" subspecies as-in just now coming out of the formation period.
If anyone, I would consider the "bee owners" to be the prime experts on the bee that they own.
So - the Russians are still basically considered unstable mutts (not stable enough to just be a sub-species like carnica, etc).

What contributes also - the Russian Far East is not an island - it is an area similar to Wisconsin in size (AND China just across the border - somehow we always ignore China as if a non-factor - a wrong approach - as if the Chinese keep no bees - what? why is this ignored alltogether?).

One can not take an unstable mutt and *quickly *produce a "stable breed" with all the stable and long-term sustainable properties.
Expect regressions and diversions - just as your document says about the USDA program mentions.


> We cannot predict the Varroa resistance or honey production of all the different hybrids that will be produced in the country.


They essentially persisted a mutt population they plucked out of the Far East - to be sure it corresponds to the originals.
That is the goal - to persist a copy-cat population here so to emulate the Far East.

(makes sense - they can NOT continuously be bringing the queens over and over and over... 
must create a "copy population" here, locally - the one that replicates the imported population as close as possible...

a population of Far Eastern mutts, but maintained in the US - that is).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> ....
> They essentially persisted a mutt population they plucked out of the Far East - to be sure it corresponds to the originals.
> That is the goal - to persist a copy-cat population here so to emulate the Far East.
> 
> ...


I would largely ignore this last statement from the USDA proclamation (totally understandable - people need to make living - I support it and the work they do is still beneficial):


> First, it is and will be developed as a stock in its own right. Second, it will be bred in ways that it will be useful as a source of genetic material to enhance existing stocks of honey bees, especially in regard to resistance to both V. jacobsoni and Acarapis woodi. Hence, ARS Russian honey bees, and the breeding program to further improve them, are a resource for all of American beekeeping.


A similar statement is mostly needed to justify the program's existence and sustainable funding..
Simply put - politics of most any project require this kind of a thing - an honorable, open-ended goal.


Added: 
I also realized - the USDA document is dated 2000;
today we are just about in 2020;
So - do we have a stable Russian breed yet with very well defined and persisted traits and appearance?
It's been 20 years.


All we see from readings of the BS - how different them Russians are - most everyone has a somewhat different experience - it only makes sense.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

But seriously...
What happened to the USDA Russian bee program?

The last document on the relevant page is dated 2007.
Today is just about 2020.
Nothing happened the last 13 years?
https://www.ars.usda.gov/southeast-area/baton-rouge-la/honeybeelab/docs/russian-honey-bees/

They point to "Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association, Inc." 
That page is largely dead and old.
The newest PDF hanging on this site is dated 2011 (maybe I missed something).
http://www.russianbreeders.org/

What is up?


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

GregV said:


> I would largely ignore this last statement from the USDA proclamation


If you cherry pick your sources and ignore those that dont fit your views, it's very easy to develop a set of data points that do fit your views.


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

Hello, interesting test field, Cuba being organic by lack of foreign support or/and currency volume.

This may be true for inland product and consumption, but where a national currency strategy is involved, cigars as example that all countries outside of Cuba gobble-up for extreme high prices, it is different.

I was lucky to visit several tobacco plantations several years ago and was explained the organic statement for Cuba and all state induced wisdom until I had to go around a building (with permission) to relieve myself and found a large pile of Bayer, Syngenta insecticide and fungicide containers.

It would be interesting to really see if Cuban bees are varroa resident, controlling or fighting.

The 12 month/year brood bearing fact should be available from any country north & south of the equator and if this was so bad, all honey production in thus countries should have collapsed, but have not.

It (varroa)seems to me more of a problem in the medium tempered countries then the extreme hot or cold climates.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV:

The latest Kentucky 'BeeLines' publication has an article about Cuban beekeeping (p. 5 + 6):

https://kybees.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/BEELINES-JANUARY-2020.pdf


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> The latest Kentucky 'BeeLines' publication has an article about Cuban beekeeping (p. 5 + 6):
> 
> https://kybees.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/BEELINES-JANUARY-2020.pdf


Thanks Russ.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Catching up on some of the TF podcasts from Solomon Parker.
http://parkerbees.com/index.html

On the podcast #74, the guest is talking about the Cuban bee experience - interesting - very defensive bees observed, reportedly.
At about minute 13:00 and on.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> On the podcast #74, the guest is talking about the Cuban bee experience - interesting - very defensive bees observed, reportedly.


Interesting podcast, GregV. Thanks for posting. Cuba sounds like a stifling place to keep bees... glad we still have the freedom to experiment.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Glad that we still have freedom period.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

johno said:


> Glad that we still have freedom period.


Well said, Johno. Happy New Year to you and your family.

Russ


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## beesRus (Nov 15, 2018)

GregV said:


> But seriously...
> What happened to the USDA Russian bee program?
> 
> The last document on the relevant page is dated 2007.
> ...


There's PDF "Russian Bee Publications" dated thru 2017 here: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene (VSH) Publications : USDA ARS

Took an odd internet search to find the above research articles. And the Russian Honeybee Breeders Association site has no dates and all other sites mentioning it, lead back to it.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Biermann said:


> Hello, interesting test field, Cuba being organic by lack of foreign support or/and currency volume.
> 
> This may be true for inland product and consumption, but where a national currency strategy is involved, cigars as example that all countries outside of Cuba gobble-up for extreme high prices, it is different.
> 
> ...


Biermann,

I am with you on the walk around the building a see Bayer and Syngenta containers, I wondered why it was not mentioned, here sooner.

So Cuba is TF
it is also Truth Free
It is also freedom free
Most likely they do not have the hard currency to buy the Miticides, so viola they are Tf
As well the "mandatory" re queen from the state yard sounds like the "State yards" in Russia. Say one thing and do another.

Sorry folks I am not on the band wagon, I do not believe anything the "State of Cuba" has to spout.

Now find a beekeeper off a boat who escaped this totatalitarian rescheme then I would listen, "with Suspicion"

Hey we have Fake news in the USA , so really.....

GG


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

As I have gotten into beekeeping, I gave a great deal of time and study to organic, treatment free, IPM and VSH. The more I read research papers from scientist, I find if true treatment free is possible at all, it is not going to happen on any commercial scale. Varroa is not going away, it has to be dealt with. As usual, the Goose is right on about Cuba-believe nothing that you hear and only half of what you see. I'm just old enough to remember the fall out of the Cuban Revolution, in first grade I had a crush on the girl who sat in front of me-her family got out on one of the last planes out, just as the Bay of Pigs and the Missile crisis was happening. Cuba is the type of Country that will grow produce and sell it overseas for hard currency while it's people starve and it leaders never miss a meal.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Not saying I believe or disbelieve it all
but the stated steps would lead one to to think it a least had a good chance as it really checks all the boxes ie
Island county, no hobbyists, constant requeening to maintain traits, good forage/nutrition with 95% coming from wild plants (lack of incoming pesticides), and a centrally run breeding program for each province (local bees), IMP... past 7% hives were treated with Bayvarol and requeened.
Sold VSH selection, Mite biting in the range of 92% (Sanabria( 2004 ) or so they say
If it didn't work there.. Its unlikely to work any wear.

If you requeened every hive in the US with VSH queens every year for the next 4 years (Propper VSH F-1s form a breeder quality queen, Not "I bought some VSH production queens a few years back so my bee are VSH) , Our mite problems would be lessened greatly. as we reduce the pathogen pressure of an area it takes less resistance for stocks to survive.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Or the mites with VSH "hyper pressure" find a Anti VSH trait to amplify as they will be the only surviving Mites.....Wash Rinse, repeat...

Somewhere I have heard " for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"

If the bees are here and the mites are here,, the bees have not evolved enough to get rid of them for a couple hundred thousand years, MSL do you feel we are now on the brink, one or two little pushes by a "smart" bee breeder and we are there?



GG


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Gray Goose said:


> Or the mites with VSH "hyper pressure" find a Anti VSH trait to amplify as they will be the only surviving Mites.....Wash Rinse, repeat...
> Somewhere I have heard " for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"


yep... take mite biting bees and one would expect to take the natural variability of the mites phoretic period and select for mites that spend less time outside of the cells.. If you look at the literature the phoretic period has gotten less in the last 20 years.. people have floated the Idea that it was caused by people repeatedly doing 3-4 weekly OAVs causing this selection.. hasn't been "proved" and may just as well be better measurements... but its what one would expect to happen
The flip side here is how mites adapt...Its not like it happens all over the place... It starts with one mite, in one yard and spreads when that hive bombs out. We see this with plenty of studys, finding mites resistant to chemicals a certain beekeepers wasn't using


> y. Results of a survey of mites from the Carl Hayden AZ lab and from cooperators in five locations (Arizona, California, Florida, Maine, North Dakota) showed that some mites were susceptible to all three acaricides (Amitraz, Coumaphos, Fluvalinate) in the spring of 2003, but by fall most mites were resistant. Mites were resistant to all chemicals, even from beekeepers that do not treat colonies with acaricides.


 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/43290537_The_resistance_of_Varroa_mites_Acari_Varroidae_to_acaricides_and_the_presence_of_esterase#:~:text=Varroa mites (Varroa destructor Anderson,and/or target site desensitivity.&text=Mites were resistant to all,not treat colonies with acaricides.



Gray Goose said:


> MSL do you feel we are now on the brink, one or two little pushes by a "smart" bee breeder and we are there?


We are there, we have been for decades, we just chose not to prioritize it


> A beekeeper friend asked me the other day, “Why haven’t those danged researchers found us the cure for varroa yet?” I replied, “They have—Marla Spivak’s been on her soapbox for years, telling us what it is: Stop perpetuating bees that can only survive with chemical help.” We’ve all seen how the mite develops resistance to each new chemical; bees will do exactly the same to develop resistance to the mite, if we just allow selective pressure to exert its effect. Well, duh! What’s it going to take until we all realize this? Here’s the skinny from the scientific community: they’re tired of looking for “Silver Bullets.” There are a few new chemicals coming down the line, but bee scientists in general are telling us that we need to move beyond the numbskull beekeeping practice of throwing a mite bomb into our hives once a year until it’s ineffective, but rather start practicing smart beekeeping, or IPM, centered around fightin’ bees that kick mite butt with only occasional help from us.


 Oliver (2007) IPM 2 Fighting Varroa 2: Choosing your Troops: Breeding Mite-Fighting Bees - Scientific Beekeeping

10 years ago when 70% of the backyard beekeepers in the US were TF (bip numbers sub 50 hives ), if those people had stood up and demanded change we would have had it.. All they had to do was refuse to buy packages/nucs with non resistant queens... It would take just one year of suppliers having a bunch of left overs to change what they are offering the next year
in stead it was , and still is a black friday frenzy based on the fear of being left up when they sell out.. TF pushing the idea(I say lie) that you could "do it you self" cut off their nose to spite their face, they could have been supporting real breeding work by buying queens.... So if the TF people aren't going to by resistant queens.. who will ?

well the commercials of course.. who buys all those $300 VSH breeders from VP queens (a TF outfit) and the others?.. the $600 (minimum order of 4!!!) queens from joe latshaw(another TF outfit)?
the commercials do! but they will only take things so far... checks and balances with an eye towards their bottom line.

Is TF going to be the mainstream way to keep bees...doubtful, when you have a mite outbreak...its often beyonce genetic control and needs to be put down.... but a solid IMP program with limited chemical intervention is well with in our reach...we just need to want it bad enuff ...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Yep; _ "..we just need to want it bad enuff ..." _ That is the key; how do you instill the desire for unified action? Getting people moving in concert is like trying to herd cats. The very idea of the "common good" is often dismissed out of hand. It certainly does not appear well embraced on this continent.


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

Goose, I like what you laying down here. I am researching a project on VSH stock and within the research, I am laying out that the VSH trait does exist in A. mellifera like A. cerana developed and might go as far as it was bred out of them by the industrialization of pollinators as the the traits focused on by industrialization was for other traits such as production and swarming reduction. Even with that said, which may not be a mainstream thought, the work over the last twenty years appears to be re-developing VSH traits or even jump starting these traits through selective breeding. I keep reading here (and other places) that VSH is a recessive gene. A. cerana took thousands of years to develop its VSH traits in a coevolution with the Varroa. I believe from my studies that with the jump start give by Baton Rouge and University of Minnesota,, that if a more intensive effort was given to developing these traits, it would be less recessive and more dominate. Part of the problem is that as an industry, we continue to buy bees "straight out of the almonds" that have co-mingled with a few thousand other hives and under a path of least resistance, continue to spread poor genes. Like A. cerana, A. millifera would eventually develop its own resistance to V. destructor if we're willing to accept 95% losses for a thousand years. Varroa is not the only insect that will evolve. The point I am making that with good stewardship, we can accelerate the development of the VSH gene by continued introduction of such bees and IMP. It's inevitable, eventual, with Varroa's adaptation, we will run out of nasty chemicals that will control them-they are not going away. With selectively breeding, supported by IPM, we can develop a bee that can coexist like A. cerana does.

Edited to change "including IPM" to "supported by IPM"


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Keep in Mind....
I have a couple newbies that "found me" due to their bees dyeing 2 winters in a row, (NUCs from Ohio , not that it matters) , and wanted help. I asked what are you doing about mites? ,, answer= what are mites? back was the response.

So the comment "All they had to do was refuse to buy packages/nucs with non resistant queens... It would take just one year of suppliers having a bunch of left overs to change what they are offering the next year "

is only valid if you assume everyone who starts with bees understands, the mite issue. Also understands the IPM, etc..

MSL the knowledge you have would be great for the newbie, Alas , it rarely is present.

I did fine for several years, until these NUCs started dropping in around me by the folks wanting to save the bees, resulting in Mine and there's were done in by the fall mite bombs.

IMO IF all these NUCs had VSH queens it would be an awesome way to get the genetics out there, IMO it is not happening. Those who sell bees have the Tiller in their hands,, how they steer is up to them.
I now sell a few NUCs for a very good price, to anyone within 5 miles of my bees, Self preservation.
As a collective NUC and Package producers "can" impact this issue, will they is the question of the day.

GG


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Gray Goose said:


> Those who sell bees have the Tiller in their hands,, how they steer is up to them.


yes, but were they steer is dependent on consumer demand, they return home with 2/3s of their cargo in the hold and unsold when competitors sold out with a different product, you can bet they make the run with a different product next year...




LarryBud said:


> With selectively breeding, supported by IPM, we can develop a bee that can coexist like A. cerana does.


that is kina of miss info being spread about.. when managed by humans A. cerana is often treated to maintain honey production, and to prevent absconding... while in nature an abscond is a survival mechanism, to the bee keeper it's the same as the colony dying as its an empty box with no ROI.
Getting a bee that can deal with varroa is no big thing (ie the arnot forest) getting one that can deal with varroa, the stress of commercial beekeeping, and still be financially viable is another story..


Gray Goose said:


> I asked what are you doing about mites? , answer= what are mites? back was the response.


The lack of beekeeping education (or mass amount of miss info) is a real problem. One can only do so much... On the state level we are eyeing having members from the regional clubs show up at the package drops and hand out "why join a beeclub" flyers with a list of all the local clubs to try to get the new beekeepers who think they can do it on their own plugged in to the club system and engaging with experienced keepers.. 




crofter said:


> Yep; _ "..we just need to want it bad enuff ..." _ That is the key; how do you instill the desire for unified action?


outside of a communist dictator? 😝 😝 😝 
Oxalic acid failing comes to mind... as long as treatment are cheap and easy it doesn't make sense not to..

the real question for north america is what is the trait cost, can a bee with enuff resistance to save the beekeeper $$ on treatments build up in time for almonds.. A few hives failing to make grade very quickly justifies the treatment costs of more mite candy gentnics


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

msl said:


> the real question for north america is what is the trait cost, can a bee with enuff resistance to save the beekeeper $$ on treatments build up in time for almonds.. A few hives failing to make grade very quickly justifies the treatment costs of more mite candy gentnics


Yes, it has to pay dividends almost immediately or they wont buy in; it is a basic part of human mentality that they strongly discount future costs. In primeval times death was near at all times; investment in future concerns did not pay dividends. I maintain that for the most part it is hardwired into us.

I have looked at the numbers of bees existing primarily for almonds and major pollination vs non migratory honey production. The latter probably less than 10%. Many of the habits that lend to disease and pest resistance are not an asset for pollinators. That 90% plus drive the market.

With education and showing off a better alternative, I think it is possible to convince the hobby and small time beekeeper that there are better ways. The utopian idea of "natural" and hard bond methods has such a harsh success record it doesn't tend to keep a lot of neophytes engaged for very long. Well intentioned but not doable enough to take off.

If almonds totally went out of style I think genetic progress toward a more resistant bee would be making a lot more headlines.


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

MSL-My quote is not misinformation and given the background research I've been doing. _A. Cerana_, (Asian Honeybee) had coevolved with the Varroa (_V. jacobsoni_-Oudermans 1904) over the course of thousands of years and adapted it's hygienic behavior (that all bees have) as part of its natural defense to survive. On the Asian honeybee, Varroa is not considered a significant threat. It was not even a noticeable pest until it jumped to imported Western honeybee in East Asia (Japan/Korea) in the early 20th century and started to move west to Europe and North America during the 1970's. . The work being done with _A. millifera,_ our Western honeybee for VSH traits, is to accelerate this genetic evolution in a compressed timeline. I would think if we wanted to wait a thousand years or so, surviving colonies would eventual develop (evolve) these traits on their own. But having the availability of these VSH bees made though artificial selection gives us a jump on the evolutionary timeline. No one is going to wait a thousand years. If an effort was made to spread the gene pools of VSH, we would make this trait more dominate than it is. Eventually we will run out of nasty chemicals that currently treat hive for Varroa as the Varroa develops immunity against them. _V. destructor_, (Anderson et al, 2000) the varroa that is affecting our bees is highly adaptable but so are our bees. 

I believe (and welcome comments) that if VSH is introduced in certain geographic areas over the course of several year and these bees are allowed to open breed with both managed and feral colonies, that area would develop that trait into the specific local gene pool. I understand the economics of this proposal, many hobbyist and sidelines are barely eking out an existence and the larger commercial guys will treat as long as it's economically viable. Eventually, like this second wave of COVID, the economic viability will change. As I live in an area with very limited industrialized agriculture and migratory apiculture is limited to a few small family run orchards, I am working on introducing a dozen or so VSH colonies if certain pending proposals for bee yards are accepted. I am fortunate to be blessed with the recourses and time now that I am in a semi retirement. Maybe I'm throwing away some money but it won't be the first time-I own a boat. Funny part is that the boat's name is Rocinante. Google it-Don Quixote's horse.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

_"I believe (and welcome comments) that if VSH is introduced in certain geographic areas over the course of several year and these bees are allowed to open breed with both managed and feral colonies, that area would develop that trait into the specific local gene pool."_

Larry, I think it would take much more forceful and concerted injection. VSH is only a slight advantage in survival against mites (and perhaps a negative in AFB) but bees breeding habits strongly favor "return to the mean". I think a much stronger program of selection would be needed in concert to make it fly.

I think it is not like dispersing cuttings from Japanese Knotweed which is almost 100% overwhelming competitor. Perhaps there is a factor here of the "critical mass" or the "hundredth monkey".

Are we hurting bad enough yet to make it happen?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

LarryBud said:


> It was not even a noticeable pest until it jumped


thats just not the case


> Parasitic pressure
> Mite, Varroa jacobsoni Oud., incidence started from November onward, but its population fluctuated from
> season to season. Open, perforated and sunken cells were considered as a major symptom of varroasis of
> A. cerana. The colonies having higher number of such cells in February (4.3 cells vs 0.4 cells/comb) and April
> ...





> The pest populations and air temperature were higher and bee flora declined during May
> to June which accelerated absconding of this bee in Chitwan





> One-third of A. cerana colonies absconded in summer and about one-sixth in rainy seasons and all colonies
> slowed their activities during both the seasons and prepared for absconding. Kafle (1985) reported that honeybees
> reacted variously when the ecology of the colonies deviated from normal and the situation inside the hive
> further deteriorated. He reported absconding of colonies in June in mid hills of Nepal. Absconding happened
> ...





https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268204925_Absconding_Behavior_and_Management_of_Apis_cerana_F_Honeybee_in_Chitwan_Nepal


So you can see that 1/2 of the hives absconded, with mites being a main cause... A great survival trait, but poor for beekeepers as an abscond is the same as a death.




> The bee mite Varroa jacobsoni is a parasite of Apis cerana indigenous to the entire continent of Asia. Wherever colonies of the oriental honeybees are kept, there is therefore a possibility of mite infestation. Through millions of years of being parasitized by the mite, the bees appear to have developed some degree of resistance to its attacks. Absconding is one of the colony's manners of ridding itself of the mite, or at least of those infesting the brood, which in such cases is abandoned.
> 
> Colonies heavily infested by Varroa produce little or no honey, but most often the beekeeper can lose the entire colony when it absconds.





> Colonies of A. cerana are highly responsive to threats by the bees' natural enemies, and it is of the utmost importance for the beekeeper to make every effort to protect his colonies against attacks by bee pests. Heavy predation by hornets, ant attacks, wax-moth infestation and parasitism by bee mites are among the major problems to be dealt with. In this regard, the techniques indicated in Chapter 6 A for the protection of A. mellifera colonies apply to A. cerana colonies as well.







__





Contents






www.fao.org





Even with AC it pays to treat!!!!
while there are of course TF AC keepeepers, But there are a lot more treating keepers then the folks who hype AC's resistance would let you know..


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

Crofter-agreed, but like the politicians in the US, waiting for the silver bullet (a perfect deal) results in nothing getting done. Perhaps if we took the attitude of "the journey of a thousand miles starts with one step.." I am a senior engineer for a large self-perform heavy contractor and as part of our work of large public work projects (9 figure $), we end up doing environmental restorations as part of the construction impact permits. I have taken out acres of Japanese Knotweed to replant with native plants. Never easy but doable, return on anything is always based on effort. 

MSL; I think that you and I agree on many things here. My reference to _A. Cerana_ is based upon the initial work done prior to industrialization. Obviously your reference is with more contemporary research and the examples given are of small scale commercial Asian beekeepers who may not be managing with best practice. Part of my thoughts is the issue, both with the Asian and Western bees is related to modern industrialization of bee keeping, goals are different in commercial operations with an eye to the bottom line. Yes, _A. cerana_ will swarm if the mite population hits a dangerous level beyond there hygienic capabilities just as you would get out of your house if it was on fire. You might fight the fire but if it beyond your ability to put it out, common sense, survival instincts. However, circling back to our Western Honey bees I believe that VSH is a path out of the burning house. Not a complete silver bullet but a bullet never less, a start. I would like to obtain several groups of queens from distinctly different breeders and repeat each year with more queens from even more different breeders and lets see what happens. The first year alone, the drone open mating with any feral colonies and potential splits generating 1st gen queens would spread VSH traits albeit uncontrolled. I have looked at how certain VSH programs test, test and test their VSH queens and score them accordingly to mite infiltration in brood comb to identify and expand the gene pool of better and better resistant queens. If I am successful in obtain VSH queens, yes I would test and mange a consistent testing protocol over the year. And yes, should a hive become overwhelmed, I would treat-I am a supporter of IPM as part of an apiary management plan. Perhaps that hive might have to be puled out of the program, but I am not about the all or nothing Bond method. Give them another chance somewhere else.

I am fortunate to live where I live (all though I don't feel that every day about everything) as we are a microcosms of urban, suburban and rural environments in a small area. If I draw a three mile circle from my bee yard, I have no industrial ag, plenty of open spaces in parks, preserves, the University's campus and private gardens. I don't know of any migratory bee keeping within 5 miles (at least) and that would be limited to a few small scale family run orchards-not large scale. Most commercial ag here beyond that zone is corn and soy and even that is limited. I know of two small register bee yards (2-3 hives) within that circle and maybe three unregistered and no idea on the feral, if any, hives. With a few small (3 hive) satellite yards on the periphery of the 3 mile radius, their is a chance for further VSH genetic introduction and cross breeding with our other VSH hives. I doubt I personally would ever do artificial insemination myself-hell, I gave up tying any fishing flies smaller than size 16 with my eye and hand skills as i get older. ;-)


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

With this problem, like so many others, the technology aspect is not the most constraining factor. Getting people to buy in to a concerted effort is the hair pulling problem. Far more a public relations issue than a technological one. _Herding cats! _ Give me a mechanical problem anytime over people problem ones!
Different skill sets, but no question about the value of the image shapers and motivaters.

Nothing like a total calamity in the present to bring focus on effective action; _a calamity in the making_ does not have nearly the buying power. Human propensity to strongly discount future costs or benefits.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Dr. Martin and Isobel Grindrod have published a new paper regarding uncapping/recapping.

Recapping and mite removal behaviour in Cuba: home to the world’s largest population of Varroa-resistant European honeybees

A few highlights:

_We can confirm Cuba has the world’s largest European mite-resistant population with 220,000 colonies that have been treatment-free for over two decades and illustrating the power of natural selection. Cuban honeybees are also highly productive, 40–70 kg of honey produced annually, and are mild mannered. Cuba is an excellent example of what is possible when honeybees are allowed to adapt naturally to Varroa with minimal human interference.

Although both recapping and mite removal can be highly variable traits they are currently the best ‘proxy’ for a resistant population since recapping is spatially associated with the presence of infested cells.

The ability of Cuban honeybees to detect infested cells causes not only high recapping levels but also high removal rates of artificially mite-infested cells. A mean removal rate of 81% is among one of the highest recorded in Apis mellifera. The average control rate of 45% is driven by three colonies that all removed more than 75% of the controls, while the average of the remaining seven colonies was 28%. During the mite-removal studies in March 2022 natural Varroa infestation was 23%, whereas in December 2021 it was only 13%. This is due to decreasing worker brood rearing, caused by a shortage of nectar during the annual dry season. During this time there is an increase in hygienic behaviour in the colonies, which could help explain the higher-than-expected removal of control cells.

... we predict that the worker infestation rate in Cuba will continue to fall over the next 20 years, especially if high mite-removal rates persist. Correspondingly, we would expect to see the infestation rates of the drone brood (currently at 40%) to remain high as mites potentially avoid reproduction in worker cells. This potentially is a key, but currently overlooked part, of the resistance mechanism. 

The main reason for Varroa-resistance in Cuba is due to the centralised decision to allow natural resistance to evolve, as also was done successfully in South Africa, rather than becoming locked into using miticides, as has happened throughout the Northern hemisphere. _


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

Well at least the bees are free.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Interesting those who cannot "afford" to treat did not ,,, now do not need to.
here in a more affluent country we can afford and are still affording.

which is more natural???

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

No question about the efficacy of a dictatorship and closed borders to beget unified action. I am, however, a bit dubious about how mite resistant the population really is. Is it transportable? Will it compete? Would the continental US and Canada require their existing stocks be exterminated to enable the Cuban bees and mites to take over? Hmmm?


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> I am, however, a bit dubious about how mite resistant the population really is.


It is resistant enough not to require treatments and to be commercially viable.



crofter said:


> Is it transportable? Will it compete?


If resistance is a population-level trait, the proper question might not be whether it is transferrable but whether it is repeatable in other EHB populations in other bioregions. As they note in the paper:

_Studies using allozyme markers confirmed that the Cuban honeybee population is European. Later this was re-confirmed by using mitochondrial haplotypes (microsats) which mostly belonged to European lineages (e.g., M, and C). In addition, the microsatellite data showed that Cuba has a homogeneous population of managed honeybees across the country without any regional differences, confirming the isolated nature of the population._

In a talk I oft refer to (quoted below), Dr. Martin discusses this prospect and concludes that population-level resistance might be expected to continue to develop in areas with some limits on gene flow- anecdotally suggesting it is already occurring in Great Britain but might be difficult in the US due to the scope and intensity of genetic upheaval.



Litsinger said:


> Near the end he outlines discussions he had with Dr. Spivak and their combined observations that VSH colonies in a high mite load environment can fail due to an external mite pressure that causes them to uncap too much brood and fail to effectively turn-over


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Well Russ it seems that the caveats expressed point out to making it unlikely to occur here. Theoretically possible can encounter serious difficulties on vastly larger scale scenario where the essential controls cannot be enforced.

Yes,
"resistant enough not to require treatments and to be commercially viable." , but that on an island with enforced isolation. How self sustaining is it in Cuba? What degree of ongoing culling and selection is required to keep it going? Is it like riding a bicycle? Are we seeing the whole picture here?


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> Well Russ it seems that the caveats expressed point out to making it unlikely to occur here.


No argument from me, Frank. I'd suggest that these results present what is possible but not necessarily what is practical depending upon a whole lot of factors.



crofter said:


> What degree of ongoing culling and selection is required to keep it going?


They speak to this in the paper- sounds as if it is a two-prong selection - focused selective breeding and Mother Nature:

_All the managed colonies are currently kept by 1,900 government registered beekeepers that have always selected for productivity, hygienic behaviour and calmness, under the Centro de Investigaciones Apícolas (CIAPI) Bees Selection Program. As a result, Cuban bees are highly productive: annually averaging 45–70 kg of honey per colony according to honey production records held by CIAPI and have 80% hygienic behaviour, based on removal of dead brood. In addition, a large unmanaged feral honeybee population exists due to expansive regions of flowers and the Cuban Royal palm (Roystonea regia) forests that cover around 25% of Cuba. 

The CIAPI and Veterinarian Services central decision to ‘not treat’ was greatly assisted by all Cuban beekeepers being professional, registered and embedded within a strong locally based beekeeping community where colony movement and exchange of queens is within each province.

There is also a large feral population and due to Cuba’s sub-tropical climate, queens are replaced annually in managed colonies because of almost continuous egg-laying, similar to honeybees in Hawaii._


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Those conditions described sounds like a dream world for a breeder! I am not surprised that they are having good results. Sounds a lot like what UOG is doing. Wouldn't you love to have a similar opportunity to control conditions.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> Wouldn't you love to have a similar opportunity to control conditions.


Sure would- and lots of feral genetics besides...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> Interesting those who cannot "afford" to treat did not ,,, now do not need to.
> here in a more affluent country we can afford and are still affording.
> 
> which is more natural???
> ...


Tough love really does work.
I already mentioned of the beekeeping in remote and poor places of mountainous Central Asia. They never knew or cared of the varroa issue.

BUT - certain conditions are very helpful - like the absence of annual cross-county migration and bee sales (in Cuba).

Even region-wide isolation works - not just a village-wide isolation.

And the opposite works too - any appreciable levels of migration undercut most all TF efforts.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Litsinger said:


> Sure would- and lots of feral genetics besides...


On the latter; perhaps, providing their success was not due to nastiness and hyper swarming habits; these are characteristics that some people are actively trying to breed out.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> On the latter


Maybe so- but I am reminded that pre-varroa, feral colonies were considered a helpful locally-adapted drone resource.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> any ... most ...


Would need to be further defined to have any substantive meaning.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Litsinger said:


> Maybe so- but I am reminded that pre-varroa, feral colonies were considered a helpful locally-adapted drone resource.


You are a hopeless optimist Russ! Pardon the contradiction. What does pre varroa have to do when *now *the major problem is living with varroa! Unless you want them only for pets, mere survival is a bit irrelevant, isn't it? How about disposition and productivity? Seeley bees are not noted in that regard.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> You are a hopeless optimist Russ!


And your the hopeless pessimist- so that makes us equal. A true Mutt and Jeff .


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> What does pre varroa have to do when *now *the major problem is living with varroa! Unless you want them only for pets, mere survival is a bit irrelevant, isn't it? How about disposition and productivity?


Survival in the face of varroa is one of the things we're after right?

And pre-varroa, feral colonies were not selected for disposition nor productivity...


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> In a talk I oft refer to (quoted below), Dr. Martin discusses this prospect and concludes that population-level resistance might be expected to continue to develop in areas with some limits on gene flow- anecdotally suggesting it is already occurring in Great Britain but might be difficult in the US due to the scope and intensity of genetic upheaval.


It's not the 'genetic upheaval' or the limits on gene flow that is the problem. That's simply silly. 

The US problem is two-pronged: Breeders working towards bees that are adapted to something other than (opposed to) mite-resistance, and, constant nation-wide redistribution of every new strain of virus or other ailment via Cali almonds.

The US situation is unique. To my knowledge, no other area on Earth combines these two ingredients. Europe has migratory beekeeping, but there are not a million hives going from Scotland and Poland down to Spain and back home again every year. Their bee traffic is regional, not continental in scale.

I am not saying bee breeders are not trying to get towards more-resistant bees, simply that it is not and cannot be their first priority given their market. The characteristics they need are opposed in some ways to mite resistance. It is an unfortunate side-effect that the genetics they need are not more useful to non-migratory beekeepers.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AR1 said:


> The US situation is unique. To my knowledge, no other area on Earth combines these two ingredients. Europe has migratory beekeeping, but there are not a million hives going from Scotland and Poland down to Spain and back home again every year. Their bee traffic is regional, not continental in scale.


Exactly, as I have been ranting for long enough.
No other country (maybe Australia?) has it similar to the US in terms of the scale of the migration.

In fact, people over there do not even grasp what is the commercial US beekeeping is about. The sheer scale of the seasonal migration here is hard to depict for them.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Litsinger said:


> *Survival in the face of varroa is one of the things we're after right?*
> 
> And pre-varroa, feral colonies were not selected for disposition nor productivity...


Exactly; you make my point. Any possible varro survival traits pre varroa should not automatically be assumed now that it has arrived.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

AR1 said:


> The US problem is two-pronged: Breeders working towards bees that are adapted to something other than (opposed to) mite-resistance, and, constant nation-wide redistribution of every new strain of virus or other ailment via Cali almonds.


@AR1: I don't disagree on balance, but if mass migratory practices are not the definition of genetic upheaval, what is?

And I humbly suggest that equating resistance as a trait that is opposed to other factors beneficial to commercial operations is a bit reductionist- certainly there are some factors (frequent swarming, etc.) that are in opposition, but not all- as Randy Oliver frequently points out, many of his colonies with the lowest mite counts are also his most productive.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> Any possible varro survival traits pre varroa should not automatically be assumed now that it has arrived.


Maybe we misunderstand each other- bees surviving now without intervention do so in the face of varroa pressure. This is one factor.

Separately (or maybe as a result) these bees are locally-adapted and this likely contributes favorably to the local gene pool in a manner similar to when feral colonies existed prior to varroa.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> @AR1: I don't disagree on balance, but if mass migratory practices are not the definition of genetic upheaval, what is?
> 
> And I humbly suggest that equating resistance as a trait that is opposed to other factors beneficial to commercial operations is a bit reductionist- certainly there are some factors (frequent swarming, etc.) that are in opposition, but not all- as Randy Oliver frequently points out, many of his colonies with the lowest mite counts are also his most productive.


It is 'genetic upheaval', clearly. I didn't say otherwise above. My point is that genetic upheaval is NOT the problem! Mixing genetics is more likely to lead to wide spread of useful traits, if those traits get selected for. The US situation is that half of our queens come from just a handful of sources that have varroa resistance as a third-string priority at best. How many big queen producers use no acaricides?

Randy Oliver may be showing it is possible to have high varroa resistance and good production on the almonds. I hope so. Unfortunately, he is a small-timer in the queen sales business. Every year his breeder queens come back from the almonds after being flooded with drones from all those other breeders. Given the way drones will fly into any available colony, undoubtedly he is exposing his colonies to thousands of drones produced by other breeders, every season. I have to wonder if that isn't why his progress is so slow.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Litsinger said:


> Maybe we misunderstand each other- bees surviving now without intervention do so in the face of varroa pressure. This is one factor.
> 
> Separately (or maybe as a result) these bees are locally-adapted and this likely contributes favorably to the local gene pool in a manner similar to when feral colonies existed prior to varroa.


OK, I can see where you were coming from.
This from post # 48 threw me off: _"Maybe so- but I am reminded that pre-varroa, feral colonies were considered a helpful locally-adapted drone resource."_ I found confusion in the inclusion of the words _pre varroa _in the quote. I agree that persistence in the presence of varroa should be investigated but only if the said mite survival tactics were a net positive. If for instance they were separable from disposition and productivity issues.

I am influenced by experience in cattle where disposition issues may make some breeds difficult to live with despite their benefits. Think dairy breed bulls such as Jersey. A great uncle of mine was killed by one. I dont think anyone has found a way of teaching them manners. 

Were feral colonies (of anything) ever really very desirable. Is there anything there that cannot be coaxed out of the domestic stock they came from?


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

AR1 said:


> The US situation is that half of our queens come from just a handful of sources that have varroa resistance as a third-string priority at best. How many big queen producers use no acaricides?


Got it- I'm following you now- this makes sense. Sorry for misappropriating your point.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> Were feral colonies (of anything) ever really very desirable. Is there anything there that cannot be coaxed out of the domestic stock they came from?


Good point. I am not sure. I can only go by historical anecdotes as I came into beekeeping just before varroa really took hold on the Western US.

I do know that the 'oldtimers' saw them as a resource, but they could have been mistaken.

While there are not many great direct parallels I can think of, a discussion we had earlier in the year comes to mind- namely that of avian flu.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

crofter said:


> Think dairy breed bulls such as Jersey. A great uncle of mine was killed by one. I dont think anyone has found a way of teaching them manners.
> 
> Were feral colonies (of anything) ever really very desirable. Is there anything there that cannot be coaxed out of the domestic stock they came from?


One of my college ag professors used to claim that Jersey bulls were the most dangerous kind of cattle. I suppose part of that is we don't respect them the way we do a giant breed.

In the current context, where domestic bees are mainly bred for one thing, ferals may have some traits that non-commercial keepers need and have a hard time getting from queen breeders. 

Personally, I don't need much production of honey. A modest surplus is my goal there. I mainly want bees that keep themselves alive with my erratic inputs sufficient. If they are a little swarmy, a touch spicy, I am Okay with that, if that's the best I can get as a compromise.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

AR1 said:


> In the current context, where domestic bees are mainly bred for one thing, ferals may have some traits that non-commercial keepers need and have a hard time getting from queen breeders.


I think this is well-put. In Cuba at least, it would appear there is a robust artificial selection process ongoing in parallel with natural selection. I can't help but think that they likely complement one another.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> I think this is well-put. In Cuba at least, it would appear there is a robust artificial selection process ongoing in parallel with natural selection. I can't help but think that they likely complement one another.


Plus, I am all about the freebees. I have paid for bees once, my first 2 colonies.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

AR1 said:


> I have paid for bees once, my first 2 colonies.


Same here...


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> A true Mutt and Jeff .


Me and Frank- talking about Jersey bulls...


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Litsinger said:


> It is resistant enough not to require treatments and to be commercially viable.


shure, so was Keffus' when used in non mirortory honey production... but even he couldn't produce a stock that helld up to pollination...
it all so worth noting the idea of "commercially viable" in the context to a communist state run program



> _Honey is a luxury item for most Cubans with a 340 gram bottle costing 1.60 CUC (1.80 USD), two days’ pay for the average person._


 Honey ‘Made in Cuba’ for Export - Havana Times

That means 62kg is a years income and they site 45-75kg harvests.... 
something does not compute... despite state control I would expect a lot of people tending a few hives hiden in the jungles and selling black market honey...and or the skim factor must be high.... or cubans don't like honey... dosen't compute 



Litsinger said:


> Maybe so- but I am reminded that pre-varroa, feral colonies were considered a helpful locally-adapted drone resource.


I don't think many saw it that way, epically with the temper of a AMM/Italian cross.
make a search 80s and later and see how many local adaption papers on bees are out there....
My take is they were seen as sub par and revivors of dezise and poor genetics.. IE feral hive with AFB getting robbed out would spread it everywhere then rinse and repeat when a new swarm occupies the cavity the next year 

it was the era of science, and we were full of our self's and achievements and what not... starline and midnight inbred highbred lines shiped all around etc
"the hand of man" as brother adam would say 




Litsinger said:


> And pre-varroa, feral colonies were not selected for disposition nor productivity...


they also weren't being selected for high aresstion, high swarming, and small (unproductive) colony sizes like in the post varroa era.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> but even he couldn't produce a stock that helld up to pollination...


@msl:

Glad to see you back on the boards. In fairness, migratory pollination is not being discussed in this context. We are talking about stationary beekeeping in a tropical environment- with bees which have been rigorously selected for their environment and their role.

This is one of Terry Comb's chief complaints about the TX / TF debate- it is always one of moving goal posts. While I can appreciate pining for a bee which can handle any and every contingency thrown at it without the use of chemical intervention, we may need to reframe the question as to what is possible based on the realities on the ground in our locale and our own needs.

At least in the case of Cuba's apicultural industry, they have a TF result that meets their needs. I call this a success.



msl said:


> make a search 80s and later and see how many local adaption papers on bees are out there....


Here's a good one for starters...



https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00890747/document



_After 4 years of closed population breeding, the geographical groups were significantly different in 8 of the morphological characteristics. The southern bees were darker, their probosces and forewings longer (Tables 1, 2 and 5). Some of the families differed significantly from others in 15 of the characteristics. Only forewing length, tibia length, the distance between wax mirrors and tergite colour were similar in their mean values (Table 5); note, however, the significant interaction for the second and third of these. As expected, the colony traits were even more different between the two geographical groups, 14 characteristics were significantly different. Most of these differences can be attributed to environmental differences (Tables 3, 4 and 5). Only in two colony characteristics of temper and queen weight were there significant family differences._


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> they also weren't being selected for high aresstion, high swarming, and small (unproductive) colony sizes like in the post varroa era.


My point simply was that feral colonies prior to varroa were under natural selection - and that feral colonies after varroa are still under natural selection.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

AR1 said:


> The US situation is that half of our queens come from just a handful of sources that have varroa resistance as a third-string priority at best. How many big queen producers use no acaricides?


So some of us no longer buy these type queens.
some found making their own to work better.
find a seller of the VSH and try some of them.
Ian steppler and Michael Palmer come to mind they raise their own queens not and only bring in a bit of new genitics every year.
both of them are non migratory however.

to me it feels like the trend is growing.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The abundance of feral bees in New Zealand certainly is not seen as an asset. Ask Oldtimer how conducive it is to operating treatment free.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

I suppose, in a location with warm weather and a continuous nectar flow it would be necessary to split a hive several times a year to prevent swarming. So keeping an adequate population of bees should be pretty easy.

Beekeepers in Wisconsin don't supply packages to beekeepers in Florida, after all.

It isn't clear how mandatory queen replacement is enforced. Do you have to provide the carcass of the old queen to prove she has been replaced? With the number of splits or swarms that would result from such favorable conditions, the actual beekeeping practices would not necessarily look much like keeping bees in more temperate climates.

The comments on actual practices being different from official statements seem likely to be true.

I would like to hear from some Cuban beekeepers on this. The rest of us speculating (including me) is just shared ignorance.

As regards Apis Cerana as an example of resistance to varroa, it is my understanding that A. Cerana makes small colonies, produces brood (especially drone brood) sporatically, absconds frequently, and doesn't produce much honey. In that regard they are a lot like feral colonies of A. Mellifera in Wisconsin that seem to be surviving treatment free. One might argue that A. Mellifera has achieved mite resistance already on par with A. Cerana. In that case the likelihood of creating frankenbees that effectively resist varroa is comparable to that of developing humans who naturally resist malaria.

By the way, people with the sickle cell mutation are naturally resistant to malaria which probably explains why this mutation is more common in areas where malaria is endemic. In biology there is rarely free lunch. You pay one way or another. Mutations are rarely if ever improvements.

If you want to keep bees like that I think treatment free would not be difficult.

Package bee suppliers would sell fewer packages if their packages were mite resistant. Especially to starry eyed TF wannabeekeepers. We can complain about that, but it won't change anything. 

And then there are heretics like me, who think that treating is more likely to produce resistance to mites that not treating, and that inbred VSH queens are basically evil. So getting beekeepers to agree to insist on VSH packages (even just the virtuous small-scale beekeepers) is basically impossible.

My understanding is that commercial beekeepers in Asia mostly keep A. Mellifera (and treat for varroa) for obvious reasons.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> The abundance of feral bees in New Zealand certainly is not seen as an asset.


At least in the case of the Cuban population it appears they are not a serious impediment to artificial selection.

It would be interesting to see studies of feral dynamics in other areas where TF is being attempted.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

A Novice said:


> The rest of us speculating (including me) is just shared ignorance.


To be fair, the genesis of this discussion centers around a peer-reviewed research paper published by a recognized leader in the arena of resistant honey bee populations in a specific environment and management paradigm with three main tenants:

1. Cuba's apicultural industry at-large is treatment-free.
2. There is an abundant feral population on the island.
3. The main mechanism of resistance appears to be uncapping / recapping- a trait that Dr. Martin has found is ubiquitous in resistant populations.

Any suppositions extending beyond these are indeed just speculation.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Litsinger said:


> At least in the case of the Cuban population it appears they are not a serious impediment to artificial selection.
> 
> It would be interesting to see studies of feral dynamics in other areas where TF is being attempted.


Their compulsory yearly requeening from selected source makes me question this conclusion.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> Their compulsory yearly requeening from selected source makes me question this conclusion.


From the study:

_There is also a large feral population and due to Cuba’s sub-tropical climate, queens are replaced annually in managed colonies because of almost continuous egg-laying, similar to honeybees in Hawaii. This rapid queen turnover speeds up natural selection relative to honeybee populations in more temperate climates._


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Litsinger said:


> From the study:
> 
> _There is also a large feral population and due to Cuba’s sub-tropical climate, queens are replaced annually in managed colonies because of almost continuous egg-laying, similar to honeybees in Hawaii. This rapid queen turnover speeds up natural selection relative to honeybee populations in more temperate climates._


 Depending upon the source of the replacement queens, it could be a means of *preventing* "natural" selection. Like what would occur where africanized bees are plentiful in the ferals.

See post #72. There may be some milking of the message.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> Depending upon the source of the replacement queens, it could be a means of *preventing* "natural" selection.


Certainly possible- but it appears that the island population has become relatively homogenous in its make-up.

From a reference in the current study under consideration:

_Due to the low movement of colonies across the country and a selection and management program which is restricted to each province, we expected to find some level of differentiation between the three regions in the country. Instead, we found a very homogeneous population across the country. Levels of geographic differentiation were considerably low for the three analyzed regions. _

And then there is this interesting nugget:

_A very interesting result of this study is the unexpected presence of African descendants in the Cuban population. Cuban bees do not look or behave anything like African bees–quite evident in its extreme gentleness. However, we found some haplotypes corresponding to lineages A, and also some samples with high probabilities of belonging to this in the analysis of microsatellite loci..._


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

So something may have crept in that overrides the common aggressiveness associated with africanization. Geographic differentiation is considerably low and they want to preserve it. Does not sound like they are looking to _speed up natural selection. _It is commonly considered necessary to constantly cull as well as select to maintain desired characteristics if you wish to thwart bees natural inclination to revert to the mean. It would be interesting to know what goes into this selection process for the requisite yearly requeening.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

crofter said:


> Their compulsory yearly requeening from selected source makes me question this conclusion.


well, that's how you hold traits stable in bees.. it was common place to requeen every year or to with selected stock long before varroa.... (that's how AMM was pushed out) Brother Adam used to requeen every spring with "proven" queens that had overwintered in a nuc, and its now very common large operations to requeen post flow so that your going in to winter with a young and fresh queen.. Liz Huxtler stopped overwintering he 4way mating nucs as there was a demand for the last round of queens...

As russ notes they say its do the the amount of egg laying...it would be interesting to find out what the prevarroa methods were.


Litsinger said:


> Here's a good one for starters...


 closed population breeding program for honey production... little to do with local adaption
lands ecotype would be a better reference, but they were still a human bred trait, not a feral one




Litsinger said:


> This is one of Terry Comb's chief complaints about the TX / TF debate- it is always one of moving goal posts.





Litsinger said:


> I call this a success.


sure
my point was you invoked the holly TF grail of "commercial"
I am not moving the goal posts, just pointing out that the goal posts are much closer in Cuba with 2 pounds of honey being equilivant to a weeks wages..
if one could get even 1/10 of that price here ($50 a pound) for TF honey being a "successful" TF keeper would be much easer.. especial if one was sounded will all those ferals to catch swarms form you could keep bees GregB (old)style and do well for your self...

What we don't have is a good measuring stick to compare, the ony one I can thing of are yearly losses
are the Bees that much more resistant, or is it the nutrition and humidly, or something elce such as the ability to easily make replacements?
Sam comfort, Ang Roell, and Tucka Saville come to mind... all (very successful) TF New England beekeepers who spend a good chunk of the year in FL (250 or so miles form cuba) making replacements and rearing queens....and we know we know there is lower mite population growth under tropical conditions (De Jong et al. 1984; Eguaras et al. 1994; Garcia-Fernandez et al. 1995; Moretto et al. 1991; Rosenkranz et al. 2006, 2010)

As Sam tells it, the 1st year he went to FL he arrived in the fall with 5 dubble deep colonies and left in the spring with 130 three frame nucs. kinda of easy to bounce back with those kind of numbers
He also notes that in FL he had no issues runing a queen yard for a large migratory operation with out treatments.. Standard almond bees




Litsinger said:


> . The main mechanism of resistance appears to be uncapping / recapping- a trait that Dr. Martin has found is ubiquitous in resistant populations.


while they don't give wash numbers, the hives seem to have large mite loads, to the point I question the restiance 


> The mite infestation of worker cells currently varies between 23 and 13% in Cuba (this study),


that puts it in the same range as the 22 % of the Fernando de Noronha bees, and we know these bees are not resistant , just a vurient strain of DWV hasn't developed on the island


> Here we show that despite _Varroa_ feeding on a population of 20–40 colonies for over 30 years on the remote island of Fernando de Noronha, Brazil no such activation has occurred and DWV loads have remained at borderline levels of detection. This supports the alternative theory that for a new vector borne viral transmission cycle to start, an outbreak of an overt infection must first occur within the host. Therefore, we predict that this honey bee population is a ticking time-bomb, protected by its isolated position and small population size. This unique association between mite and bee persists due to the evolution of low _Varroa_ reproduction rates. So the population is not adapted to tolerate _Varroa_ and DWV, rather the viral quasispecies has simply not yet evolved the necessary mutations to produce a virulent variant.











Oldest Varroa tolerant honey bee population provides insight into the origins of the global decline of honey bees


The ecto-parasitic mite Varroa destructor has transformed the previously inconsequential Deformed Wing Virus (DWV) into the most important honey bee viral pathogen responsible for the death of millions of colonies worldwide. Naturally, DWV persists as ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





and for some reason the cuban bees didn't get wiped out by the mites when they arrived


> 208,000 colonies in 1985. After this colony numbers fluctuated, reaching a minimum of 126,000 colonies in 2003. This was due to Varroa and an economic crisis. Since then, colony numbers have steady increased, reaching 221,000 colonies in 2021


 maby they could just make up the losses? but I would have expected a bigger crash.. maby the Apicuba programs selection for hygienic behavior (pre mite) helped lession the impact 

These aren't kefus "mite black hole" bees, someing else seems to be at work.. Mabe they are resiant, or maby its just treatments just aren't needed under the cuban conditions. but it looks more like tolerance given the loads
a chalgen study done under US or ero conditions as was done with the Fernando de Noronha bees would be interesting


worth noteing that seelys bees show some African genetics as well


> In addition, modern bees have a detectable component of African descent. Interestingly, the modern bees show an increase in genetic ancestry from the Arabian Peninsula, not typically found in domestic stock.





Litsinger said:


> 2. There is an abundant feral population on the island.


they did say that, but offered no back up


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

__





Beekeeping In Cuba | Bee Culture







www.beeculture.com


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

msl said:


> it would be interesting to find out what the prevarroa methods were.


and of course the is a reference in the article


https://www.evacranetrust.org/uploads/document/d8eb6b8772f4008dafb2b505b88306e080b53250.pdf




> The average yearly surplus from modern hives in Cuba is about 150 pounds ; the apiary record is an average of 600 pounds per colony from an apiary with 150 colonies.


it would seem that varroa indeed had a harvest impact, suggesting treatments would restore it

I do question the notion that all the bees are TF because its against the law to treat
it was against the law to use OA in the USA for a long time, once leagle it was against the law to treat with supers on for a good while, its still against the law to use wood bleach or cattle dip (tatic) or OA/GL sponges...
be we know, at least in the us, beekeepers are fairly willing to break laws to meet performance needs... I would expect those under a communist/dictatorship with a poor human rights track record to take similar steps to insure the 'health and well fair" of their loved ones

there is the Gov line... and there is what is realy going on
pesticide free paradise? hardly



> The unauthorized use of pesticides, application at inappropriate times and/or on unregistered crops, is a potential risk to the environment and human health. The objective of this study was to evaluate the level of knowledge and awareness among farmers about the use, risk and dangers associated with exposure to pesticides in the agricultural region of Sancti Spíritus, Cuba. For the development of the objective, 124 peasants of the province were surveyed. The results were analyzed from an initial descriptive analysis and then through an association analysis using the Chi-Square test and Spearman's Correlations, using the statistical package SPSS version 20.0. The results showed that only 28.3% of the farmers had received training. Personal experience is the main driver of decisions about which pesticides to use and how. 35.8% of farmers stored pesticides in unmarked containers, such as soft drink bottles. Empty containers are stored to be incinerated (31.7%) or reused (42.6%). Around 90% of farmers do not use personal protective equipment. The study concludes that the lack of knowledge, the non-use of personal protective equipment, the inability to understand the labels and the low perception of risks are the main causes of exposure to pesticides and the risk to the health of workers and nearby residents, as well as damage to the environment.





https://revistacta.agrosavia.co/index.php/revista/article/view/1282





> A broad range of pesticides were detected in the samples. Most of the detected active ingredients were insecticides and fungicides. A considerable part of the detected pesticide residues exceeded the EU and Cuban MRLs





> It was also recognized by farmers that tomato and onion cultivation results in the greatest economic benefits. Also, farmers mentioned in the interview that motivated by the great economic benefit they overuse pesticides to guarantee the highest possible yield.
> 
> This study finding high levels for some products, confirms that synthetic pesticides are still in use in vegetable production in Cuba. Of the samples, 31% contained at least one AI above the European MRL (most Cuban MRLs are missing, which difficulty a national analysis). This is despite previous Cuban studies which have warned of the adverse consequences of synthetic pesticides on human health and the environment (Figueroa González and Pérez-Consuegra 2012; Hernández Contreras et al. 2010; Hernández Núñez and Pérez-Consuegra 2012; Hernández et al. 2003a, 2003b; Perdomo Hernández et al. 2016; Vega Bolaños et al. 1997).











Pesticide traces in local crops of Sancti Spíritus, Cuba: risk assessment study - International Journal of Food Contamination


Background Vegetables and rice produced in Cuba may contain residue of pesticides that exceed the maximum residue limits (MRLs). Pesticide residues on crop samples from Sancti Spíritus province were analyzed. Based on these residue data, a risk assessment of consumer exposure was conducted...




foodcontaminationjournal.biomedcentral.com


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

@msl:

Just to add a little levity to an otherwise sober discussion, let me see if I can summarize your position:

TF beekeeping in Cuba is actually just an insidious propaganda campaign being disseminated by the Communist party.

What little they have to show for is only possible due to the serendipitous conjunction of a subtropical climate, the stationary nature of their operations and the absence of a virulent strain of DWV. 

Even then, they are only able to keep the ruse going via ruthless queen replacement, perpetual drone culling and constant splitting.

Despite all this, they still have unacceptably high losses and have resorted to clandestine and/or off-label treatments to maintain some semblance of an apicultural industry.

And finally- though their current average yields are only 2/3rds of what they were in the glory days, this total is likely inflated because it would suggest that they are making too much money.

Did I miss anything?

Just poking a little fun. I'll try to offer a serious response to your most recent posts when I get a little bandwidth.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

And well it should, be a _sober_ discussion, without exaggeration or cherry picking by anyone. Lets see what people would gather from it, who were not previously polarized.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Litsinger said:


> Did I miss anything?


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> lands ecotype would be a better reference...


@msl:

Thanks for the feedback. Good information to consider.

I appreciate the reminder about the Louveaux et al study. From the discussion section (translated from French):

_In conclusion, the different species and races of bees existing in the world would represent evolutionary types adapted to determined ecological conditions. Consequently, in each place, the local race of Bee would always be by definition, the best adapted. Braun (1955) expresses the same idea.

On the side of the bee, if we refer to the mass of observations made both by biologists and by practitioners, it seems undeniable that each race geographical location of bees has its own rhythm of development. If we consider as a point of comparison, on the one hand the dates of the beginning of the laying, on the other part from the number of adult or larval individuals present at each moment of the year, we see that the variations are great from one breed to another for the same place.

Given that there is indeed a local bioclimatic regime and an annual evolutionary cycle pre-determined in the Bee, any operation of moving bees from one given geographical race to a place where it is foreign must have measurable consequences._

There are many other observations in the section and the references are likely well worth exploring when one has the time and inclination.



msl said:


> the holly TF grail of "commercial"


While we've been down this road before, I was utilizing the word "commercial" as defined by the Cuban apicultural industry at-large. It was not my intent to expand the discussion beyond the Cuban study at-hand nor to the migratory practices employed by many commercial operations in the US.



msl said:


> while they don't give wash numbers, the hives seem to have large mite loads


From the study:

_Previous research 20 found DWV is in 100% of apiaries and only the Korean haplotype of Varroa was found in Cuba 19. Therefore, the situation in Cuba, with respect to the bees, mites, and virus, is similar to that found across the Northern hemisphere._

And from the abstracts referred to in this section:

_Varroa destructor has been present in Cuba since 1996, but without the use of acaricidal infestation rates remain at very low levels. The presence of Korean haplotype mites was described in 2007, but there is no information regarding the introgression of the less virulent Japanese haplotype that could account for a low pathogenicity of the mite. In this research, we carried out molecular characterization of Cuban Varroa mites through mitochondrial DNA and hypervariable nuclear loci. We applied an alternative RFLP technique and found that all the analyzed samples corresponded to Korean haplotypes. 

In this study, we report for the first time the presence of Nosema ceranae, Acute bee paralysis virus (ABPV), Deformed wing virus (DWV) and Sacbrood bee virus (SBV) in Cuba. Their detection in different provinces and the simultaneous infection of colonies by several viruses indicate that they are widely spread in Cuba. On the other side, N. apis and Black queen cell virus (BQCV) were not detected._

On the other hand, the study also offers this:

_The mite infestation of worker cells currently varies between 23 and 13% in Cuba (this study), roughly 25 years after it was first detected (1996). Whereas, in Mexico and Brazil, infestation rates of worker brood have fallen from around 20% in 1996/1999 down to 4% in 2018/19 7. Although, Varroa was first detected in Brazil much earlier, in 1972 25 and the Africanised honeybees adapted to the mite and spread northward replacing the susceptible European colonies. Therefore, we predict that the worker infestation rate in Cuba will continue to fall over the next 20 years, especially if high mite-removal rates persist. _



msl said:


> they did say that, but offered no back up


One of the research articles which are referred to allude to the feral population:

_Taking studies of the 80s as a reference, there is a reduction of the forewing and a blackening of these bees as a result of being subjected to a selection process for "tolerance to Varroa", developed by humans and the influence of nature._



msl said:


> there is the Gov line... and there is what is realy going on


While I can understand and appreciate this sentiment, are you of the opinion that the Cuban apicultural industry at-large is not accurately reflected by the contemporary published literature? Do you have any evidence to support a position contrary to the recent scholarship?


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Litsinger said:


> @msl:
> 
> 
> 
> _In conclusion, the different species and races of bees existing in the world would represent evolutionary types adapted to determined ecological conditions. Consequently, in each place, the local race of Bee would always be by definition, the best adapted. Braun (1955) expresses the same idea._


Oh My!

Really!

Think for a moment.

The statement is possibly true, provided the conditions are representative of the historic living conditions of the particular strain of bees. According to conventional thinking, that would be a smallish colony living in a tree.

Additionally, best adapted means best able to swarm successfully in that condition, since success, from an 
"evolutionary" perspective is determined only by successful reproduction.

So the local bees are best adapted if you raise bees in trees and want them to swarm.

Since living in trees if you are a bee is like living in a stick hut plastered with mud and dung with a dirt floor and a thatched roof full of vermin if you are a human, this sort of adaptation is pretty irrelevant except to feral populations.

Bees best for a location for the purposes of beekeepers are unlikely to be the same bees.

Try different bees, see what works.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

A Novice said:


> The statement is possibly true, provided the conditions are representative of the historic living conditions of the particular strain of bees.


The discussion in the research in question is birthed out of the study of a specific ecotype that emerged in an area in France patterned by a dual-peaked flow, unique to the country. A fascinating experiment followed where this ecotype was swapped with an ecotype prevalent in Paris and the results support a vote for local adaptation. In the discussion the researcher is hypothesizing why this might be so and draws on research into adaptation to populations in specific biomes. There is a study about moving different local bees around in Russia for example.

At the end of the day, the conclusion is that local is better because the population adapts to best capitalize on it's unique environment.

When you have a chance I encourage you to read the study.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Litsinger said:


> While I can understand and appreciate this sentiment, are you of the opinion that the Cuban apicultural industry at-large is not accurately reflected by the contemporary published literature? Do you have any evidence to support a position contrary to the recent scholarship?


While I'm optimistic about about bees in Cuba, msl has a very valid point about other agriculture. Read a story a few years ago, someone visiting a tobacco farm got the standard official spiel "All our tobacco is 100% organic" Later needed to take a wiz and (with permission) went behind a shed. Yup, piles of empty pesticide containers.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> While I'm optimistic about about bees in Cuba, msl has a very valid point about other agriculture.


And I would suspect there are scofflaws in the Cuban apiculture too.

The question in my mind is whether there is any evidence of systemic usage of acaricides- which I expect would be difficult to conceal on this scale.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

A Novice said:


> Since living in trees if you are a bee is like living in a stick hut plastered with mud and dung with a dirt floor and a thatched roof full of vermin if you are a human, this sort of adaptation is pretty irrelevant except to feral populations


I think humans have to be careful when they start to transpose human characteristics to bees. For all we know (varroa aside) bees would prefer a cozy thick, half rotten tree cavity with all the benefits it offers. We might shudder at other vermin sharing our homes, but I doubt an insect feels the same, many co-exist and actually have symbiotic relationships.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Litsinger said:


> Therefore, the situation in Cuba, with respect to the bees, mites, and virus, is similar to that found across the Northern hemisphere.


Given Cubans 60 year ban on bee imports, one might ask how all the viruses got there... likely the same way as the mites.. some beekeeper thinking, they know better than the government… never hurd of theat before…



> The mite was predicted to have entered Cuba a couple of year’s earlier18, potentially via shipping or illegal queen imports


important to the topic at hand is the DWV variants... no data
and it was 1st detected in 2017, it may not have gone vurlent yet



William Bagwell said:


> Read a story a few years ago, someone visiting a tobacco farm got the standard official spiel "All our tobacco is 100% organic" Later needed to take a wiz and (with permission) went behind a shed. Yup, piles of empty pesticide containers.


that was on BeeL, in response to the article that started this tread



Litsinger said:


> While I can understand and appreciate this sentiment, are you of the opinion that the Cuban apicultural industry at-large is not accurately reflected by the contemporary published literature? Do you have any evidence to support a position contrary to the recent scholarship?


Page 158 of the ministry of agriculture's Technical guide for the beekeeper https://eac.unr.edu.ar/wp-content/uploads/archivos/Apicultores y salud 13-11-2013 digital_compressed.pdf

the caption reads (goggle translate)



> Presentation and mode of use of the two products authorized in Cuba
> for Varroa control. The doses and treatment schedule respond to the indications of the manufacturer and the AC (IMV)














Snips from page 156-156



> In Cuba, the organic product API is successfully alternated
> 
> LIFE VAR (menthol, camphor, eucalyptus and thymol, in support of
> vermiculite), with the use of the chemical BAYVAROL (flumetrina impregnated in plastic strips).
> ...


sounds like they treat to me



> the apiaries intertwine the flight radios, support to coordinate effective actions, which allow to lower the rates of parasitic infestation, with a population perspective. When
> Rustic apiaries are maintained adjoining modern apiaries, reservoirs are also maintained without control of the parasite.





> In the control of Varroa it is not effective that the beekeeper carry out drug treatments in isolation, without veterinary orientation, not knowing the exact doses and treatment schedules recommended by the manufacturer.


work together to all treat at the same time to lower the mite load of the landscape, and watch out for your TF mite bombing nehobores and thier rustic ways !!!



> When the infestation rate by Varroa is 5% or more, the colony is in danger. Is
> observation is not a substitute fore valuation of the rate that concerns performing the service veterinary percentage of these, which are those that multiply and result from
> difficult to control in the longer term. Here lies the importance to prioritize the proposed integrated management alternatives, before thinking about the use of chemicals.


 a 5% Action treshold... much lower then most places, suggesting the bees can tolerate a higher mite load




> the hives reach yields higher than 50 kg of honey/ year, many of them with added commercial value, such as honey organic. When rates go up, it is invariably due to
> violations of established procedures.


those who treat more/control better then the gov says they should get higher (read historical normal) production?

any way
what sticks in my craw is the study doesn't show any mite restiance... no MPG numbers, no controls with "normal" bees, no transplant tests, etc
The Arnot Forest bees failed the MPG when kept in standard hives
the Fernando de Noronha Island bees failed the transplant test, as did the Avion bees (but normal bees moved to the TF bees location did very well)

that and they keep harping on "natural selection" when it was a human breeding program


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

msl said:


> that was on BeeL, in response to the article that started this tread


Ah, explains why I did not share it two years ago.

Edit: Three years. Actually did look in my BeeL folder for it, but since this thread started Sep 21, 2019 and I switched computers Oct 4 2020 was not there to find. Surprised I was even reading BeeL then...


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

It is an interesting thought - that Apis Mellifera is currently no less resistant to Varroa than Apis Cerana is.

Apis Cerana is able to live with Varroa, and does. But they do so in small colonies that produce brood sporadically and swarm and abscond frequently.

We have seen that Apis Mellifera can survive with the mite under the same circumstances - small colonies they swarm regularly and have regular brood breaks.

So chasing the "evolutionary" breakthrough may not be a viable strategy, since Apis Cerana has not "out-evolved" Varroa over the millennia much better than Apis Mellifera has in the last 50 years or so.

The problem is Apis Creana with its small colonies produces very little honey. Which is why most beekeepers in Asia keep Apis Mellifera. Of course, they have to treat...

To paraphrase, "Life sucks - and then your bees die!"

It just doesn't get any better than this.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> important to the topic at hand is the DWV variants... no data


Nice find, MSL. I appreciate you posting.

From Chapter 6, they note the following:

_VIRAL DISEASES- Numerous viruses have been identified in the honey bee, but few have been related to pathological processes of clinical and economic significance. The viral diseases of bees evolved in the same way that the methods of exploitation of apiaries were developed._

*Main viral diseases of the honey bee*









_In modern and intensive beekeeping, the most intense and widespread parasitic infections are associated with viruses. Among them we can mention those that cause true black cells (BQC), the filamentous virus (FV) and the Y virus, conditioned by the presence of the Nosema apis parasite; the X virus, due to the parasite Malpighamoeba mellificae and the cloudy wing virus, the acute and chronic viral paralysis, the deformed wing virus and the sacbrood virus, associated with the parasite Varroa destructor. These associations, in turn, lead to morbid processes with an insidious or acute course and a more difficult recovery._



msl said:


> sounds like they treat to me


This was indeed news to me. Delving a little deeper into this:

Chapter 6 outlines that parasitic diseases are a Notifiable Disease to the Veterinary Service:

_ATTENTION! Acarapisosis, varroosis, tropilaelapsosis and aethinosis are notifiable diseases to the World Organization for Animal Health (OIE)._

They define Notifiable Disease as a, _Disease inscribed on a list by the veterinary authority and that must be reported and declared as soon as it is detected or suspected, in accordance with the provisions of the country's regulations. In Cuba it is regulated by Resolution No. 21/10. Compulsory notification system of animal diseases to the Institute of Veterinary Medicine and classification by group of diseases that affect animals._

The document goes on to note that, _Diagnosis It is performed clinically and confirmed by the laboratory._

Following this we read that, _In the control of Varroa, it is not effective for the beekeeper to carry out drug treatments in isolation, without veterinary guidance, not knowing the exact doses and the treatment schemes recommended by the manufacturer._

In Chapter 5 it is noted that, _Whenever the beekeeper suspects or detects symptoms of disease, poisoning or contamination that affect the bee population or their production, he must immediately notify the veterinary service that provides assistance. The measures for the prevention, control and recovery of diseases in the species, whatever their origin, are established by the IMV, as AC and put into practice and enforced by the veterinary services that attend to the productive base, with the active participation of the producer._

Additionally, Chapter 2 points out, _ATTENTION! In Cuba it is prohibited to apply antibiotics to hives. It will only be used under the prescription of the IMV, such as AC. The varroicidal treatments are indicated and controlled by the IMV, in coordination with the beekeepers. They are applied as a campaign, to avoid epidemiological mosaics._

So it would appear that varroacides are only applied after veterinary directive and are applied across a landscape scale to minimize viral spill. The interesting question would be to understand how widespread are these landscape-level miticide treatments?



msl said:


> a 5% Action treshold... much lower then most places, suggesting the bees can tolerate a higher mite load


Certainly possible. I note that Chapter 1 defines the breeding goals as follows, _Select and reproduce the most productive hives, with the highest honey yields (>50 kg/year), the least swarming, the least defensive, with the best hygienic behavior and those with infestation rates by Varroa destructor in adult bees less than 5%, with colonies that can be selected to provide biological material for reproduction in queen bee rearing centers (maternal and paternal), intended for the process of genetic improvement of the population._



msl said:


> what sticks in my craw is the study doesn't show any mite restiance...


I suppose it depends how you define resistance. To my mind, the scholarly definition as I understand it is:



Litsinger said:


> Resistance is usually defined as the ability of an organism to limit parasite burden, while tolerance is the ability of an organism to limit the harm caused by a given burden (see Råberg et al., 2009). Resistance thus is the preferred term to describe honey bees that keep V. destructor infestation at relatively low levels.


Thus, depending on how we define 'limiting parasite burden' will dictate how we define a given population's progress toward resistance. As noted in the Martin et al paper:



Litsinger said:


> The mite infestation of worker cells currently varies between 23 and 13% in Cuba (this study), roughly 25 years after it was first detected (1996). Whereas, in Mexico and Brazil, infestation rates of worker brood have fallen from around 20% in 1996/1999 down to 4% in 2018/19 7. Although, Varroa was first detected in Brazil much earlier, in 1972 25 and the Africanised honeybees adapted to the mite and spread northward replacing the susceptible European colonies. Therefore, we predict that the worker infestation rate in Cuba will continue to fall over the next 20 years, especially if high mite-removal rates persist.


From the Chapter 4 of _Beekeeping Health and Production Guide_, we read about the Cuban industry's definition and approach to resistance:

_When the beekeeper reinforces resistance, he is preventing the disease. From the epidemiological point of view, the ability of animals to resist, paralyze and eliminate the etiological agents that enter apiaries and hives is important.

The defenses of the hive is one of the determining factors in the protection of collective health and limits, and even interrupts the multiplication and circulation of the etiological agents, slowing down or interrupting the development of the epidemic process.

The beekeeper reinforces individual and collective resistance when he achieves adequate nutrition for all the hives in the apiary, replaces the queen bees of all the hives that make up the apiary, and manages populations of bees with genetic quality, obtained by selection, under the breeding program in the country._



msl said:


> The Arnot Forest bees failed the MPG when kept in standard hives
> the Fernando de Noronha Island bees failed the transplant test, as did the Avion bees (but normal bees moved to the TF bees location did very well)


But what if resistance is not transferrable? As noted in Chapter 3 of the Guide, it is noted that the Cuban industry considers four (4) factors as critical to maintaining their apicultural paradigm:

_FACTORS THAT CONDITION HEALTH OR ILLNESS IN THE HIVES_

_GENETIC OR PHYSIOLOGICAL DEVIATIONS_
_ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS_
_GOOD PRODUCTION PRACTICES_
_ETIOLOGICAL AGENTS_


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

ursa_minor said:


> I think humans have to be careful when they start to transpose human characteristics to bees. For all we know (varroa aside) bees would prefer a cozy thick, half rotten tree cavity with all the benefits it offers. We might shudder at other vermin sharing our homes, but I doubt an insect feels the same, many co-exist and actually have symbiotic relationships.


Understood.

I just want to counterpoint all the romanticism around the "natural habitat".

Virtually all creatures raised in captivity live dramatically longer and healthier lives than they do in the wild.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Litsinger said:


> But what if resistance is not transferrable?


The question is... if its not transferrable, is it really resistance, or something else, or just BS, or the pointed question... if its not transferable how could it be of any use. 

Ie Colorado bees are 100% small hive beetle resistance, the only time we see SHB is on imported nucs... 
funny thing tho... those nucs don't have SHB issues a few months after being imported !

maybe you found it some were (I am time limited, my haunted houses opened tonight) but no were in the TM dis I see the much heralded bio tech methods.... requeening, drone trapping, etc
that felt weird given the amount of "press" around it


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> ... if its not transferable how could it be of any use.


Two thoughts on this score:

1. The resistance characteristics are certainly useful to the Cuban apicultural industry.

2. When I say non-transferrable, what I suppose I am referring to is the transfer of bees from a locally-adapted population and relocating them to a different ecology and expecting similar results. At best I would suggest the results will be unpredictable (as Brother Adam found with hardiness in crosses of Saharan bee) or will present the transplanted bees with a novel pest and disease profile which they are not genetically acclimated to. 

That is not to say one couldn't introduce beneficial genetic traits (i.e. VSH) into a local population and expect marginal improvement on this score, but for my part I am convinced that resistance is a population-level trait.



msl said:


> ... but no were in the TM dis I see the much heralded bio tech methods....


It is in Chapter 4. My apologies for the awkward translation- too much to try to clean up so I've attached the Google Translate version.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

very interesting "discussion"

2 or 3 thoughts
I cannot bring myself to believe any communist government "news" sometimes our new is fake news as well, so I take any news out of Cuba with a grain of salt.

the mity mite killer is a heat treatment. based on Cuba being down by Fla. maybe there are a month or 2 of weather that is a natural mity mite cooker. There may be a temperature where the mite struggles.

As well the weather would allow lots of splitting, Ala Sam Comfort, splitting is bee keeping, and done every where,, I do it.
If I did not split, I would in time be out of bees. Down there one can just keep splitting, so "recovery" can be a non mystery. If I loose a hive one day and split the next ,, Was there a loss? now I am a worker for the state, and my job and family depend on the pay check, was there a loss? had 50 last week , have 50 today, no loss boss.

A point of view........



GG


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Gray Goose said:


> the mity mite killer is a heat treatment. based on Cuba being down by Fla. maybe there are a month or 2 of weather that is a natural mity mite cooker. There may be a temperature where the mite struggles.


Doubt this is a reason. 90 F is a hot day there according to Google, bit short of the 105 F needed for a thermal treatment. Plus MMK recommends an extra treatment per year in Florida. Four verses three for the rest of the US...

BTW, I'm averaging about 1/2 treatment per hive this year


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Litsinger said:


> I've attached the Google Translate version.


nice, I missed the full verstion , and had been copy pasting text a few paragraphs at a time... just drone traping....

ran in a few references about requeening every 6 months, but that's about it 


SO Cuba is not TF, no were close.... 
and it would seem there are "hobby" beekeepers, likely the "Rustic" ones the TM mentions



> The typical Cuban beekeeper has a few dozen hives; anybody with more than 25 hives has to register with the local apiarists cooperative and deliver their honey to the Cuban State











Sweet Cuba: Honey Gold from the Red Island — Gaia Discovery


Cuba has a reputation for primitive agricultural practices. But being isolated from the latest farming methods and chemicals for the last 60-odd years has an upside. Its bees are as green and pure as they come.




www.gaiadiscovery.com




.



> Any private beekeeper who has more than 25 hives is not only obliged to join a cooperative, but must deliver most of their honey to the State and keep only that destined for their own domestic consumption.











Cuban Beekeeper Denounces Loss of ‘Tons of Honey’ - Havana Times


After months of intense work, the lack of fuel caused the loss of tons of honey in his fields in the municipality of Perico, Matanzas. Why?




havanatimes.org





the study has gotten a lot wrong and offers no proof of restiance... I would guess given the breeding programs its there, but they don't show it..then again... maby the program is hamstrung one of the links russ posted shows 5% mite washes in the drone hives at one of the breeding programs, we know this will have a large impact on the drones mateing sucess 
the entire piece is suspect and out of phase with whats being done on the ground...


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> the entire piece is suspect and out of phase with whats being done on the ground...


That's one way of looking at it... Methinks that is too close to throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.

Here is how Dr. Martin describes the situation on the ground:

_'Firstly the Cuban study is the most recent in a long line of studies on this subject conducted in South Africa, Brazil, UK, Europe and the USA and every time we found the same traits as we did in Cuba. So resistant honeybees are all over the globe.

Yes the sub-tropical climate helps speed the progress towards resistance, but is not a vital part of the story as Varroa resistant populations are found in parts like Norway, Sweden and the UK which are certainly not sub-tropical.

Sub-tropical bee-keeping requires queen replacement every year since they are constantly producing brood, but again in northern climates queens live 3 yrs in resistant populations just like not resistant stock.

Hence the situation in Cuba is just the same as found in the USA resistant populations that have been studied.

Anyway read the papers... and make you own mind up, but in Cuba we lived there for 1 month conducting research we were allowed to go where we wanted and select what colonies we wanted to study.'_


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Triumphalist accounts of beekeeping in Cuba share the same problem as reports of North American Treatment Free beekeeping. The breathless claims of North American success overstate their accomplishments and bury their failures.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

JWChesnut said:


> ...The breathless claims of North American success overstate their accomplishments and bury their failures.


overstated. there are certainly examples of that as well as examples of the converse.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

hmmm 25 I would a state keeper then

GG


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> ... a state keeper ...


A good proletariat - working hard for the common cause.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Based on our discussion, I asked Dr. Martin about his understanding concerning acaricide use on the island. He was gracious enough to respond as follows:

_'Throughout our stay and unannounced visits to several beekeepers and apiaries we saw no signs of treatment or discussions about them. The beekeepers are very poor eg a queen cost $3, so I have no idea how they could afford miticides even if they were required. We were allowed to walk freely around bee yards ect and we never saw any signs miticides were or had ever been used. The main bee research/management institution (Cuban honeybee research Institute (Centro de Investigaciones Apícolas [CIAPI]) certainly don’t advocate the use of miticides now or for the past decade plus.'_


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

t


> On the outside the hives and yards looked very similar to the stationary yards I work in northern Vermont. 24 production col-onies at each site. The hive stands weren’t tall and the hives sat low to the ground.
> Most were double deeps, some had an additional medium. this represented their winter configuration. there wasn’t too much of a reason to go into hives at this time of the year, and I was thankful that Alexander (Ale for short) and his friends could make the time for us in their bee-yards.
> 
> Ale continued popping one cover after another and removing frames of brood to show off . At first I wasn’t entirely impressed. these were colonies with a lot of brood, few nurse bees, and parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) in nearly every hive. In my own operation if I saw similar symptoms, I would be afraid my hives were near crashing
> ...





https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320591734_Bee_Smitten_in_Cuba


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320591734_Bee_Smitten_in_Cuba


Nice find, @msl. While there are not many photos, I am curious as to the clinical symptoms that Zac observed that suggested to him the bees had PMS. I've contacted him for clarification and I will update this thread should I hear back from him. Hard to reconcile how bees riddled with PMS go on to make 50 kg's of honey.

Following the previously quoted section we read:

_'My thoughts stayed with the varroa. These were colonies full of brood exhibiting PMS before spring, and Ale and his friends weren’t concerned. They weren’t anxious to rush off to a chemical treatment. They worked the varroa out of the hives by using the bees’ natural biology and the rise and fall of the seasons.'

'And for a community to have so little in terms of access, they have so much to show for it as a result. The lack of pesticide use in the country is the reason their honey fetches such demand and a premium price from the European Union; a market that is all too happy to gobble up truly natural, organic honey. I made the assumption that they would be splitting hives heavily to keep ahead of varroa losses. That wasn’t the case. They have a thriving domestic queen industry, commissaries to purchase all their honey. By having little, in many ways they are doing very much.'_


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Gray Goose said:


> very interesting "discussion"
> 
> 2 or 3 thoughts
> I cannot bring myself to believe any communist government "news" sometimes our new is fake news as well, so I take any news out of Cuba with a grain of salt.
> ...


I remember a few years back, Consumer Reports did a study under "actual driving conditions" to see if Air Conditioning had an effect on automotive fuel economy.

This is actually a pretty straightforward calculation if you know the parameters of the AC unit.

However, they hired people to drive cars on a fairly long course, either windows up no AC, windows down no AC or AC on. In California in the summer.

Not surprisingly, their measurements of fuel consumption showed no difference.

Having hired temps to do unpleasant work and having observed their level of compliance with unreasonable (to them) requirements, I was not surprised. My only question is, Did they turn the air on before they were out of the parking lot?


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Many years ago, I was trying to make a living playing pocket billiards, while going to school in my spare time.

I didn't lose a lot of money, and while I am a horrible gambler, I was pretty good with the cuestick. The locals would often console themselves if they lost by relating the tale of a young woman - their terminology was less polite - who had been there the day or week before. She was a much better player than me and would easily run the table on me if I ever encountered her. (or so they said).
As I recall, she had red hair.
I chased that woman all over the Twin Cities area and got within a day of her on several occasions. I never met her.
I know she was a real person because everybody talked about her. The stories were all the same. There were additional details I won't share which were very consistent. They were all talking about the same person. I really wanted to meet her because I like competent attractive women. Alas, it was not to be.

Having reflected on that over the years, I have come to the conclusion that perhaps she didn't exist. People seem to tell the story they want to be true. I guess I have become cynical in my old age. Not as trusting as I was.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Sometimes this discussion seems to harken back to Captain Ahab and his Chief Mate Starbuck...


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Litsinger said:


> worked the varroa out of the hives by using the bees’ natural biology and the rise and fall of the seasons.'


I realize you are quoting someone else.

Is this the same Cuba that replaces the Queens each year because the seasons never change or is their definition of "seasons" different than what I experience in Arkansas?

Alex


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

AHudd said:


> ... or is their definition of "seasons" different than what I experience in Arkansas?


Good question, Alex. I don't know.

Given their subtropical climate, I'd surmise it has less to do with ambient temperature and more to do with periodic dearth. Several of the publications posted here speak of dry conditions at certain times of the year. But this is my guess at what Zac is trying to convey with that statement.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Litsinger said:


> Good question, Alex. I don't know.
> 
> Given their subtropical climate, I'd surmise it has less to do with ambient temperature and more to do with periodic dearth. Several of the publications posted here speak of dry conditions at certain times of the year. But this my guess at what Zac is trying to convey with that statement.


That's what I was wondering, rainy season vs. dry and how long each lasts.
I don't remember now, if it was stated, near constant egg laying or constant.🤔

Alex


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Litsinger said:


> . Hard to reconcile how bees riddled with PMS go on to make 50 kg's of honey.


averages are a funny thing, and often miss told fish story's
a year or 2 of zero realy impacts averages but often aren't figger in the telling



> Then, to add insult to the famine, Hurricane Irma hit the island, ripping off what remaining blossoms had survived the drought. “Without food, our bees fall like dying flies,” said one beekeeper from Camaguey province. “This has been a bad year,” he added. “I have lost nearly half of my swarms and I am not one of the worst cases. I have a friend who had 42 hives and today he only has nine.”











Sweet Cuba: Honey Gold from the Red Island — Gaia Discovery


Cuba has a reputation for primitive agricultural practices. But being isolated from the latest farming methods and chemicals for the last 60-odd years has an upside. Its bees are as green and pure as they come.




www.gaiadiscovery.com






or maby its just relative.. as noted the historical averages were much higher...


> _When we have tons of honey in the apiary waiting to be extracted so the bees can fill the combs again, we can not wait to be so very nice in spacing the combs in the top boxes. We get seven of them in the upper story the best we can without wasting time, and when we come around again in six or seven days they are full. That is the kind of spacing we do and that is the kind that pays the beekeeper here the best._


so maybe this is what PMS stunted hives look like in this climate(given the brood infestation numbers of the recaping study its kinda of what I would expect them to look like)... it looks like the crash we see here, but then the flow comes back in 2 mounths, the drone brood comes back and that leads to an improvement in the worker brood..... the hive recovers.. they don't have the extended broodless period most of us have.. so the mite impacted "winter" bees don't need to live nearly as long

I wish there were some MPG numbers... that's how you gauge resistance..
this feels like tolerance with enuff drone culling to keep the numbers down just enough.. 



> Oneido tells Granma International that in 2012 he had yields of up to 48 kilograms of honey per hive and that this year this has risen to 113kg. He adds that the amount of honey produced has almost tripled in the past four years and that he believes it will be even greater in the future





> According to this specialist, best practice in hive management is key to achieving the maximum yield.
> 
> In terms of beekeeping for example, the queen bee must be changed from time to time. Some change the queen every two years, but Oneido does so every six months. As such, the life cycle of his queen bees is cut short, but this results in greater productivity





> Part of the year sees the so-called dead months, which are the most difficult for beekeeping across the island, given the lack of flowers. As Oneido states, “I live off the bees for ten months of the years and they live off me for two. They give me eight months. August and September are when I must take care of the bees as that’s when they most need me.”
> 
> Maintaining the bees in optimal conditions over these two months is key to ensuring a strong and healthy bee population. Curiously enough, during this period the bees are fed with honey syrups and other sugars.


 https://en.granma.cu/cuba/2016-08-17/the-beehive-man


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

AHudd said:


> That's what I was wondering, rainy season vs. dry and how long each lasts.


Alex:

The paper that @msl posted above (The Beehive Man) gives the best description I've read so far of the actual climatic conditions- and also outlines a feature that I see in many of these vignettes- that of vigorous feeding during the dearth. So it is quite possible that the queens in the typical commercial management are laying nearly continuously:

_'It’s worth noting that Cuban honey is sought after across the world as the hot and dry conditions produce a pure honey with a particular flavor, color and aroma acquired from flowers such as the romerillo, the whiteroot, hedge bindweed, dandelion and almond tree blossom. In addition, while in other parts of the world chemicals are used in the process, including in the smoker used to calm the bees, Oneido and his six workers use woods such as cedar and jiquí, which are non-toxic.

Part of the year sees the so-called dead months, which are the most difficult for beekeeping across the island, given the lack of flowers. As Oneido states, “I live off the bees for ten months of the years and they live off me for two. They give me eight months. August and September are when I must take care of the bees as that’s when they most need me.”

Maintaining the bees in optimal conditions over these two months is key to ensuring a strong and healthy bee population. Curiously enough, during this period the bees are fed with honey syrups and other sugars.'_


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> I wish there were some MPG numbers... that's how you gauge resistance..
> this feels like tolerance with enuff drone culling to keep the numbers down just enough..


Thanks for the articles, @msl.

I think we can both agree that there is likely a tolerance aspect going along with the progress towards low MPG. High viral tolerance seems to go hand-in-glove with surviving populations.

That said, the fact that they have a sustainable breeding program comprised of queen stock that maintains mite counts at or below 5% and now the understanding that the general population exhibits a relatively high rate of uncapping / recapping suggests to me that there is a significant aspect of resistance developing in the general population.

At a minimum, is there consensus that we've gotten a reasonably clear picture of the conditions on the ground from a combination of published research, first-hand accounts and contemporary news articles?

To me, it seems fair to at least conclude that the Cuban apicultural industry is currently sustainable without treatments at-large - due at least in part to the internal efforts of the bee population.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Litsinger said:


> it is quite possible that the queens in the typical commercial management are laying nearly continuously:


I missed posting a link/source for quote 3 post 116 its from 1891 !!! my bad I meant to leave it as a bread crumb for some one to pick up





v.1 1891 - The American bee keeper - Biodiversity Heritage Library


The Biodiversity Heritage Library works collaboratively to make biodiversity literature openly available to the world as part of a global biodiversity community.




www.biodiversitylibrary.org




from that


> We change our queens every two years, for they lay so continuously in this warm climate that at the end of that time they are not worth much. Perhaps one in twenty-five would do good work for three years.
> 
> We breed pure Italian queens and let them keep such company as suits them when they are young ladies, and
> the result is. the workers are for the most part hybrids, from no bands at all to one and two, but they are of the " get there " stripe. We have a good many colonies that have stored five top boxes full at this date, seven combs in a box, five pounds to the comb, 175 pounds per colony, and only the beginning of the harvest, yet I have read reports from Cuba which said the range was overstocked with 250 or 300 hundred colonies. What nonsense! I wish I had 1,000 colonies in our apiary from now until the 15th of February. I would get 100 percent, more honey, then I would move 500 of them away four miles, where they would need no feeding in summer, and I would move them back the 20th of November, for during the bellflower season it is practically impossible to overstock.
> ...


looks like a local bee was needed.. local methods for local conditions
but...too funny they they say there bees are pure... but not pure..cause pure doesn't work....sigh....beekeepers

so we can see big yields in Cuba with changing queens every 2 years... so why in the modern era its a year, or 6 mounts(and this is world wide not just cuba)
best guess its not neo nicks and cell towers that seem to be absent in cuba

side bar... if the queens are puting out that much brood to wear out in 6 mounts now, what is the hive swam rate?
goggle search of Cuban hives shows modest stacks compared what we see as big in the US..
that and the climate and writings suggests constant harvest.. high brood loss rate? mabye


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> its from 1891 !!!


That's cool... I initially read that as 1991 and I thought it had to do with the period corresponding with the end of the Soviet Union. But it looks like a time (according to Wikipedia) when American influence on the island was nearing it's peak (hence I assume the article in The American Bee-Keeper):

_'By 1877, Americans purchased 83 percent of Cuba's total exports. North Americans were also increasingly taking up residence on the island, and some districts on the northern shore were said to have more the character of America than Spanish settlements. Between 1878 and 1898 American investors took advantage of deteriorating economic conditions of the Ten Years' War to take over estates they had tried unsuccessfully to buy before while others acquired properties at very low prices.[32] Above all this presence facilitated the integration of the Cuban economy into the North American system and weakened Cuba's ties with Spain.'_


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