# Hopguard vs MAQS vs Apilife Var



## kincade (Feb 3, 2011)

I'm hoping to solicit a bit of advice for a friend who is in need of treatment for a hive. Its a 1 year hive with a high mite drop count (45-50 per day) and is starting to see a few DWV bees crawling on the ground around the hive. As I'm currently treatment free I don't have much knowledge about the 'soft treatments'.

He's narrowed it down to the three mentioned above. Basically he's looking for the most effective method to knock down the varroa that causes the least amount of side effects on the hive. From what I've read, Hopguard seems to work well if used progressively 3 weeks in a row and have few side effects. The Apilife also seems work well but I have read about robbing issues and absconding. And MAQS also seems to work well but be hard on queens.

Has anyone used all three? Any feedback you can give would be greatly appreciated.


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## WhiteOakAcres (Sep 9, 2011)

I had a hive last fall that had over 100 drop count in 24 hours. Treated with MAQS late last fall and this spring it is booming, more so than the rest. It definitely disrupts the bees for a day or so at first, in my case at least. From what I have read and heard from others, high temperatures when treating may cause supercedure. I have also used API Life VAR in the past with no problems. I haven't tried the HopGuard yet but ordered some to treat overwintered nucs should they require it. Just my two cents. 

WhiteOak


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## wildbeekeeper (Jul 3, 2010)

Why not try Apiguard? its a thymol treatment with little side affects


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I was reading up on Hopguard, and was stoked to try it . . . but it isn't approved in my state yet, and I am unaware of someone that will send it to my state.

MAQS was the second best thing I've heard going around . . . until I heard about the high queen mortality rate. It just wasn't financially worth it to me at that point. the MAQS arn't cheap (about $5 per treatment), but if there is a 30% chance you will lose your $25-35 queen, that suddenly increases the costs to about $15 a treatment. That becomes too high for me.

I don't know anyone who has used Apilife Var . . . I wish I did though.

Apiguard doesn't really sound too great for me. Mann lake says you need to use 3 wafers per colony, and use three applications per treatment in 7-10 day intervals. 20 wafers cost $36, which would treat only two colonies that way, making a treatment cost of $18 per hive. I'd be better off rolling the dice on losing the queen at that price.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I think you may have the two products confused Specialkayme. Apiife var is a thymol based treatment in wafer form that does get a bit pricy.. Apiguard is the gel based thymol product sold by Dadant and is a bit more affordable. I have used both and also thymomite strips. Apilife var would be my third choice.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

You are right Jim. Sorry. I typed the wrong name down for one over the other.


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

I'm cautious when a product calls for respirator, so read the manual before buying. Not all require that, so check first. I'm a hopguard user and only have good experiences with it. It is a product made from hops, so it is pretty close to something I consider natural. I do however not use as to their label. They say to put 2 strips in per brood box and done. Done is right, because it is gone after a week and you do not get the capped brood. The best is to put it in weekly for 3 weeks in a row. The bees take it very well and stay calm while being applied. I find the product easy to use, but it is not cheap used in the progressive way.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I have heard that Hopgaurd is about as effective as a powder sugar dusting.

Tom


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

TWall said:


> I have heard that Hopgaurd is about as effective as a powder sugar dusting.
> 
> Tom


A little bit more effective then powdered sugar, if you use it according to the packaging. Use it three weeks in a row and it is very effective.


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## olii2d (Jun 30, 2010)

Will the mites build up immunity to the Hopguard like some other things?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I cant wait to try out my fomic acid vaporizer that I built from a diesel glow plug and a small piece of sheet metal.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

I've used MAQS, and it is harsh. I don't know how bees experience the world, but I can't imaging they like that stuff. My hives were very stressed by MAQS and I've got a bucket of it that I probably will never use. It might be okay if you were planning on requeening immediately after the treatment. For that matter, you could kill the queen and treat with it then requeen. 

I've used Apiguard and basically like it. The only problem is that it cannot be used with honey supers on. Really, I doubt it would make honey unsafe to eat, but it probably would affect the taste in a negative way. If your friend is not using honey supers and won't for the next month, then Apiguard may be the way to go. I do remember reading somewhere that thymol can also be detected by taste in honey if it is used up until the supers are put on. 

Have not used Hopguard, but it apparently can be used with supers on. Everything I've read indicates that bees tolerate it well. I has not been approved for use in my state, but is about to be. Since I have not used it, I won't comment on it other than that. 

As for mite immunity, nobody really will know until the products have been used over a longer time frame. However, thymol and formic acid have been used for awhile now, and I am unaware of any immunities. The mites don't seem to develop immunity to organic acids and essential oils like they do with the synthetics. The synthetics interfere with specific metabolic processes and there are chemicals inside an organism's body that can detoxify them. That makes it easier for resistance to develop -- a single gene change can result in immunity. 

Finally, if your friend has high mite counts, he or she should consider getting bees with more genetic resistance, so maybe treatments could be avoided altogether in the future. (Which is better than any of the three choices you mentioned.)


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Nabber86 said:


> I cant wait to try out my fomic acid vaporizer that I built from a diesel glow plug and a small piece of sheet metal.


Care to share how you built it?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Specialkayme said:


> Care to share how you built it?


1 – Glow plug from a ’71 VW Rabbit (cheapest I could find on the internet)

1 – Piece of 4” x 4” sheet metal cut from a larger stock piece that I got at Home Depot

1 – U-bolt with bend matching the diameter of the business end of glow plug.

Wire and battery clips 

I fashioned a tray out of the sheet metal piece. Not sure how thick the metal was, but I could easily bend it with my hands. I made diagonal cuts (about ½” in) at each corner of the piece of metal to make the sides easier to form. A pair of pliers and a vice helped to make the bends for the sides (I put on leather gloves about half-way through the process, as my fingers bleeding from the sharp metal edges :doh. Drilled 2 holes in the bottom of the tray near the edge. Secured the glow plug to the underside of the tray with the U-bolt (prongs of U-bolt pointing up through the bottom of the tray with nuts inside tray). Connected negative wire to the side of the tray with a sheet metal screw (drill a small pilot first). Positive lead goes to the nut on the end of the glow plug. The only tricky part was positioning the glow plug near the edge of the tray so the positive end doesn’t touch and short out. 

I tested it out by placing a little Oxalic acid (wood bleach) in the tray and connected the wires to a 12v car battery. Works like a champ, but looks like crap and needs a little filing to smooth the edges.
Cost me about $15 and took about ½ hour. 

I may make another prototype with the glow plug attached to the bottom of a tuna fish can – the tiny cans that are about 2-inches in diameter. Or maybe a small cat food can. That will probably be even faster and look a lot better.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Nabber86 said:


> I tested it out by placing a little formic acid (wood bleach).



you might want to edit your posts and change the formic to the correct acid b/4 some one tries it, but if they do I hope they post there results.

from one of your previous posts on another thread

Or, buy a quart of Wood Bleach (Oxalic acid) at Ace Hardware for less than $10 dollars,build a vaporizer, and fume through the SBB. No need to disturb the brood nest.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I may be asking for a little too much, but could you post pictures Nabber?

I'm much more visual, and am interested in trying to build one (if I think I can do it. I'm much more of a woodworker than a metal worker).


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I'm curious about oxalic vapor. Is it effective through the SBB? Every description I've read says to seal up the hive.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

BIG OOOPS. I bought a quart of Oxalic acid at Ace Hardware a couple of weeks ago. (Although, I have been reading up of formic acid as well.).

I re-built the fumagater out of a cat-food tin and tried it out. I worked really good. 

I have pictures, but I am not sure how to post them. I also can never see pictures that someones else posts. Can anyone help me out with this?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

*Can Anyone see these pics?*


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

*A few More*


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: A few More*



































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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Pics came thru fine. How long to vaporize? How long to handle? Do you use it in a shim on top of hive?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

cg3 said:


> How long to vaporize? How long to handle?


It happens pretty fast. It melts first (actually the water driven off the hydrated form of the acid), the water evaporates, and then the OA sublimes into vapor. I didnt measure, but I put about 1 tablespoon of OA in the can. I tried it a couple of times just for fun. Some of it leaked out of the holes in the bottom of the can and then recrystalized on the glow plug when it cooled. The insulation melted a little off of the wires were the contacts were made, but the rest of the wire never got hot. I will probably use some solid un-insulated leads in the future. Never had any problems with inhalation (I used the proven scietific method of holding my breath).

The rig worked good. If I could work with sheet metal, I would go back to that and make a really nice one (notice that I didnt show a picture of the original prototype that I tried). But I think I will peruse the local grocery store for something that comes in a sturdier can. 

I havent tried hive application yet. I will probably try it his weekend (somebody call the feds, because I will be breaking the law). I plan on scaling out 3 grams and placing the cup under the screened botom board. I will put something around the bottom of the hive to keep the vapors traveling up inside the hive and not leak out in the wind. 

I got most of the information form this source:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-heat-vaporization-and-other-methods-part-2-of-2-parts/

Cheap, easy, and effective treatment for mites.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: A few More*

Maybe a dumb question, but how does the liquid not drip from the pan, when there are two holes in it?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: A few More*



Specialkayme said:


> how does the liquid not drip from the pan, when there are two holes in it?


That part was strange. I didnt want to go near the thing after the test, so I let it sit there in the driveway to cool off for a good half hour before I picked it up to examine the aftermath. I guess the dehydration water dripped through the holes (actually the tiny gap between the drilled holes and the prongs of the u-bolt), but then immediately evaporated when it hit the red hot glow plug on the underside of the can. I guess the OA that was carried with the water vaporized upon hitting the hot glow plug and any leftover OA recrystalized on the glow plug when it cooled - no stains or any residue was left on the driveway. Either way I dont think a little bit of OA that may drip through and land on the ground after an actual hive treatment is going to cause problems. Maybe I could try sealing the gaps with something like JB Weld, but I am not sure if it would hold up to the heat and from what I saw, it probably doesnt matter. Where is Acebird when we really need him to provide an expert evaluation!

The design may not be perfect, but I am pretty excited about the performance of the unit.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Nabber86 said:


> (somebody call the feds, because I will be breaking the law).
> Cheap, easy, and effective treatment for mites.


the infared laser says it all MAVERICK


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

What is the power source? A car battery?

Mike


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

The IF Thermometer was really hard to hold on target and get the picture with the other hand, while holding my breath to avoid fumes. 

Power source = 12 V battery. Plus I drive a diesel (2 batteries). I know what a glow plug does, but never actually saw one in action. 

I thought about 120 v AC, but stringing 200 feet of extension cord didnt sound so good. I saw a design that used a coffee pot heater. I just happened to have an old Mr. Coffee in the basement, so I took it apart. Unfortunately I cut all the wiring, resistors, and controls (rheostat?) when I removed the hot plate. I straightwired it to an outlet with lamp cord. Darn near melted thing - serious distortion and flames. 

If you want to go 120 v AC, I guess any small kitchen appliance would work good (if you leave the controls on). I am thinking one of those Fry-Daddys would work really well with a little modification. Then you would actually have a dial to set the correct temperature.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

here's a link from bee-l to a vidio(in spanish) of an evaporator, not much info but has some interesting features.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYgjVlIfEo8


bujia bosch incandescente de diesel
(a bosch diesel incandecent spark plug)

y a la bateria
(and to the batery)


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## cdanderson (May 26, 2007)

*Re: A few More*

I have used Api Life VAR, Apiguard and MAQS. All worked fine.

I like the MAQS best as it had less trips to the hives (not because of less work for me but less stress having to open the hive). I did add an empty super on top to give them more space during treatment. I lost no queens and percentage wise, those hive are my best hives this spring. I bought another bucket for this year.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

*Re: A few More*

Am trying HG but some of the application instructions are a bit confusing. I got some last year when approved here in Fl. Instructions were to use 2 strips for a 10 frame deep, once in the spring once in the fall once in winter 3 times max. The new instructions are to use 2 strips on a 10 frame deep applied once then 3 weeks later then 3 weeks after that 3 times max. The stuff on the net and from people I know who use it say to apply 2 strips on a 10 frame deep 3 weeks in a row to go through a complete brood cycle. People that have used it 3 weeks in a row say it works really well. Can be used with honey supers on but ya can’t take honey from the brood box. Google hopguard and ya can see u-tube videos on its use.


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## kincade (Feb 3, 2011)

*Re: A few More*

Bringing this back up to the top. I've read mixed reviews on Hopguard in the last year, read that MAQS can be very hard on queens, and read a few reports of absconding when the thymol products are used. All things considered, the hopguard and thymol appear to be easiest on the hives with thymol not being able to be used with supers on.

I'm also curious about oxalic acid, but wondering how those of you who use it figure out the dose? 

Would all of these be effective on tracheal mites? Yes, I know trachael mites shouldn't be an issue with most queens but someone didn't tell Robert Russell this before he started selling queens.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

cg3 said:


> I'm curious about oxalic vapor. Is it effective through the SBB? Every description I've read says to seal up the hive.


I don't have SSB's but I quit sealing the hive after the first couple years. I just use a little more oxalic and vaporize until it comes out the top. Working pretty well.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: A few More*



kincade said:


> I know trachael mites shouldn't be an issue with most queens but someone didn't tell Robert Russell this before he started selling queens.


Did he sell you queens infested with trachael mites? I haven't heard that one before.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

*Re: A few More*



kincade said:


> someone didn't tell Robert Russell this before he started selling queens.


OK, now I'm nervous.

Does OAV have an effect on SHB?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: A few More*

I have used hopguard....and still have a good bit left, so I will be using it again on a limited basis. 
It is not as benign, in my experience, as the manufacturer says. 
I saw elevated queen losses that appear to be related to the treatment. I had several hives shutdown brood production entirely for most of the treatment period (3 weeks). The bees may remove any brood from beneath where the strips contact comb, gnawing much of the comb down to the foundation.....and then they will not redraw that area. 
After three applications...mite counts drop noticeably.
I've used ApiLife Var. It works. Handle it with care. It will burn your skin. Wear gloves. The instructions say....will cause permanent eye damage (or something to that effect)....and I'm sure it would.....so be very careful with it.
I have not used MAQS.
I'd recommend Apiguard of the miticides I've used.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

*Re: A few More*

beemandan, shutting down brood production for 3 weeks wouldn't be good anytime, let alone in the fall if you do a treatment at that time, just when your queen should be rearing winter bees. I realize that you said only several hives did this, but still bothers me that it happened at all. Do you think the queen losses were attributed to the queens getting overly slimed with the stuff when you applied the strips? John


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: A few More*

I used Hopguard on 4 hives last August. They are all booming this year. Kind of expensive and time consuming. Anything it touches will smell like Hopguard next spring. I used MAQS on 4 hives. Two with two strips and two with one strip. All of my queens are marked. We had a fairly cool week in August and I applied it then. This March I found 3 unmarked queens and one marked one in those hives. I didn't check the queens last fall, so I'm not positive that it was the MAQS, but the queens were all one year old. The replacement queens are all doing great though.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: A few More*

Yeah John...it was only a few that shutdown brooding but enough to tell me that the stuff isn't as benign as they would have you believe.
My first thought on queen loss was that I might have bumped them with a strip...but that was last summer. This spring I treated a handful of nucs and at each application I found the queen first and made sure she was separated from where the strip was placed.....and still felt like there was a noticeable increase in supercedures. 
These weren't substantial numbers....I'm reluctant to quote percentages as there were only 25 total nucs treated and I don't think using percentages on such a small sample is appropriate. All the same...I felt that there was a noticeable increase in supercedures over my untreated nucs.


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## kincade (Feb 3, 2011)

*Re: A few More*



Specialkayme said:


> Did he sell you queens infested with trachael mites? I haven't heard that one before.


Both of the queens I have from him are the only hives I have that are crashing from not only varroa but trachael mites. Rampant K wing, bees all over the ground twitching, etc. I'm not sure where he got them or where they were bred (and it's a conversation not appropriate for this thread) but they are most certainly not trachael mite resistant.


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