# Why not have few very large hives instead of many small ones?



## Trever (May 14, 2015)

I'm not a beekeeper yet but will be once i'm old enough to have a house of my own. But one thing about it really bothers me. i see all of these hive designs and i'm thinking to myself why are they so small. Wouldn't it really limit their potential?is it ok to have a hive of a base perimeter of 20 ft? and or have your hive be large like that but in a "U" shape so that you can get to your bees easily? i know that bees like to build up but i don't see why that wouldn't let you have a wide base at start. i just feel that the colony cant expand as much as it could. I would love to give them a space that they can expand in very well so that its only the resources at hand that limit their growth. Also are there certain honey bees that grow bigger colony's then others? and i don't understand what you guys mean about colony traits, wouldn't it just be the traits of the particular bee type? How dose it really work? I personally would rather have 3 hives of 600,000 bees each then have 30 hives of 60,000 bees each if resources in the area were adequate for it. I care more about the bees then the honey too 

PS: as you can see grammar isn't my best talent lol.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

A colony simply couldn't get that large


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource!


>> is it ok to have a hive of a base perimeter of 20 ft? 

Well, how would one be able to lift a box of that size? There are unforeseen events that may require moving a hive on occasion - if you can't pick it up life could get very complicated very fast. :lookout:


Bees live in a colony typically* headed by a single queen. The 60,000 bees that you mentioned is _reasonably _close to about what is sustainable (in foraging season) for a colony with a single queen, given the rate at which one queen can lay eggs and the lifespan of a an individual worker bee. It seems quite unlikely that one could repeatedly maintain single queen colonies of 600,000 bees.


*(there are schemes to have dual queens, each kept in separate brood nests, but worker bees supporting those dual queens able to move into common honey supers.)


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## Royal (May 4, 2015)

I believe that a hive that large is impossible for 3 reasons.
1. What really keeps a hive together and functional is what's called the queen pheromone. That is, the scent the queen bee releases which lets the workers know she's around and healthy. If there if no queen within a certain distance of a group of bees in a hive, those bees might leave or raise their own queen, which can be very bad. The queen pheremone also increases the morale of the bees, making them more resistant to disses and parasites.
2. Also, i believe that during winter, there is a practical limit on how big a "nucleus" (a group of bees) can be, as the bees have to be able to leave to get honey, and bees at the center might get baked. 
3. The queen is only able to lay so many eggs within a certain time, of course this means only so many bees to make a hive can be around at the same time.
I also believe that the term "colony traits" refers to the bloodline of a certain breed of honeybee, as some bloodlines might swarm more,be more disease resistant etc. There are 4-11 breeds of honeybees, depending who you ask. The most common for hobbyists is Apis Melliferra, the Western Honeybee. But some honeybee breeds like the Giant Honeybee build stronger/bigger hives, yes.


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## Trever (May 14, 2015)

ok i understand): i just thought that since there were cases of bees in homes that reached 600,000 that it might be possible to raise a colony of honeybees to be that size. So then could i just get another queen by doing one of the methods mentioned and put it and bees from the same colony to make a second one? So tell me about these Giant honeybees are they good for first timers? I was thinking about getting Buckfast bees. i live in New Jersey so i need a bee that is Great with cold weather. my main concern is that and for them to be highly resistant to disease.


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## greathorned (Apr 25, 2013)

600,000 in a home was likely 5-10 different Hives/Queens. My suggestion is pick up a book on Beekeeping at your local library, it will save you a lot of questions. And when you do have them, then of course there is here. It also would be in your best interest to friend a local beekeeper and help him/her move a few hives around, then you will see why we all do what we do the way we do it. Though the industry can always receive new and better ways.


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## Trever (May 14, 2015)

ok well i have one more question that a book may not help me with. is it pointless to have bees in a place like New Jersey when in other parts of the world bees can be out all year?


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## Royal (May 4, 2015)

That depends on why you are keeping bees. I'll spare you and myself five paragraphs of why the bees don't meed helped. If you happen to enjoy beekeeping then you can raise them in NJ. Also, even if it was possible to buy other honeybee species, I wouldn't do it. Go with a European honeybee colony.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I have bees in Tennessee, and while our winters are shorter than in New Jersey, the bees are _not _foraging all year. Even in Florida bees are not necessarily foraging all year. While bees may able to fly most of the year in southern climates, the availability of nectar and pollen for bees to forage on is entirely dependent on _plants_, not the bees. 

It is possible for bees to do fine in NJ, even with cold winters, but clearly some locations offer better/more forage than others, but that applies in _every _state.


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## Jim Brewster (Dec 17, 2014)

Maximizing the population and the brood nest is the principle behind a few more-or-less alternative management systems: Ive's hives, Rose hives, and Perone hives come to mind. I'll leave it up to you to research those if you are inclined.

One advantage of having many hives (large &/or small) is you have many queens, so you are maintaining more diversity. And if you have the opportunity to have outyards you can select places with diverse climate and forage as well.

As far as beekeeping in NJ vs the tropics, you should ask the beeks in Manitoba, Alaska, or Siberia whether it's pointless. The European honey bee is very adaptable, and there are trade-offs wherever you go. The further south you go, the more issues you will have with small hive beetles and the potential of Africanized bees. The North has a longer steadier nectar flow through the summer, while in the South it is short and intense, and may be trickier to manage. Even as far north as I am (near Baltimore), it's mostly a short flow, and depending on where you are in NJ (coastal plain vs highlands) it may be the same for you. The very popular phrase "all beekeeping is local" applies here.

Lastly I would recommend getting in touch with a local club as the best place (along with beesource of course ) to get the advice you won't find in books.

Good luck!


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Trever said:


> I'm not a beekeeper yet but will be once i'm old enough to have a house of my own. But one thing about it really bothers me. i see all of these hive designs and i'm thinking to myself why are they so small. Wouldn't it really limit their potential?is it ok to have a hive of a base perimeter of 20 ft? and or have your hive be large like that but in a "U" shape so that you can get to your bees easily? i know that bees like to build up but i don't see why that wouldn't let you have a wide base at start. i just feel that the colony cant expand as much as it could. I would love to give them a space that they can expand in very well so that its only the resources at hand that limit their growth. Also are there certain honey bees that grow bigger colony's then others? and i don't understand what you guys mean about colony traits, wouldn't it just be the traits of the particular bee type? How dose it really work? I personally would rather have 3 hives of 600,000 bees each then have 30 hives of 60,000 bees each if resources in the area were adequate for it. I care more about the bees then the honey too
> 
> PS: as you can see grammar isn't my best talent lol.


Not sure when or where they were built, but at one time there were large bee-houses. They actually held several hives and their purpose was to throw swarms. That is something most of us do not want to do now. 

The configuration you suggested actually could be good for an apiary with multiple hives. Maximum manageable hive size is about 3 deeps in the brood box. Remember those honey supers need to come off of the top and someone has to do it. 

There is a way to operate a larger than normal hive with 2 queens using a Snelgrove board.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>is it pointless to have bees in a place like New Jersey when in other parts of the world bees can be out all year?

Here are the top 3 honey producing states in 2013 (didn't see a 2015 handy...):
North Dakota	33,120,000	$67,565,000
Montana	14,946,000	$31,088,000
South Dakota	14,840,000	$30,570,000

Being in a warm climate does not insure that the bees will do better.

"Although we now and again have to put up with exceptionally severe winters even here in the south-west, we do not provide our colonies with any additional protection. We know that cold, even severe cold, does not harm colonies that are in good health. Indeed, cold seems to have a decided beneficial effect on bees."--Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey, Brother Adam


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## Trever (May 14, 2015)

But i dont know which bee to get. Yes i look it up but there is a lot of miss information particularly with the buckfast bees that i'm most interested in. one source says they are good at everything and gentle. another says they arnt and everywhere in between. i just want to know if they are good for beginners or not. the people that make them say that a lot of the miss information about them is because breeders in other regions are breeding them wrong like they mention here http://www.buckfastbeekeepersgroup.co.uk/ . its just really confusing.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>But i dont know which bee to get. 

The differences from one colony to the next of the same race are greater than the differences from one race to the next. Any of them will do.


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## Trever (May 14, 2015)

but aren't there biological factors that will help some bees in some areas better then other bees? But another thing is i really want to know what is true about the Buckfast bee and what is false.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The best bees for any area are bees that are surviving without people in that area. What "Buckfasts were" and what "Buckfasts are" are two entirely different matters. I had Buckfasts for 27 years. I liked them. If I could get what I had back in 1974 again, I would use them again. But I can't. Brother Adam is gone. Not much of the original genetics are still around.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Trever said:


> ok well i have one more question that a book may not help me with. is it pointless to have bees in a place like New Jersey when in other parts of the world bees can be out all year?


I'm in an "other part of the world" and we're a lot colder than you by the looks of it. And Michael Palmer is keeping bees commercially in Vermont near the Canadian border up in the Northeast. I'm pretty sure there are commercial guys in pretty much every climate.

Column one is "my city"... column two is "your city":
Average January High Temperature 25.89ºF	37.25ºF	
Average January Low Temperature 6.93ºF	19.13ºF	
Average July High Temperature 83.95ºF	83.34ºF	
Average July Low Temperature 62.00ºF	62.66ºF


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> The best bees for any area are bees that are surviving without people in that area. What "Buckfasts were" and what "Buckfasts are" are two entirely different matters. I had Buckfasts for 27 years. I liked them. If I could get what I had back in 1974 again, I would use them again. But I can't. Brother Adam is gone. Not much of the original genetics are still around.


Were there actual queens being imported from Brother Adam's isolated breeding area at that time? Or some more pure form of that race not quite so diluted being propagated in the states?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Weaver Apiary was importing semen to get Buckfasts back in 1967. In theory that is only half, but with some II (Instrumental Insemination) and a few batches of semen you can back cross those and get within 94% in 4 generations. First generation is 50% Buckfast. A 50% Buckfast queen inseminated with Buckfast semen is 75% buckfast. That one inseminated with Buckfast semen will be 88% Buckfast. That one inseminated with Buckfast semen will be 94%. 94% is getting pretty close. Eventually Weaver broke into B Weaver and R Weaver. Eventually B Weaver decided that the Buckfast genes had been mixed so much with the rest that they stopped calling them Buckfasts. 

As far as I know that's how Weavers were doing it. Although back in about 2000 or so under the current laws some people got some Buckfasts in by shipping semen and queen cells from Buckfast Abbey to Australia, raising queens in quarantine there and II them and destroy the original bees and ship the offspring (that were raised in Australia) to the US. I may not have all the details right, but it was something on those lines and very expensive to meet all the legalities of the time. I'm not sure you can even do that now.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

If the goal is to "save the bees", the worst thing you can possibly do is raise 600,000 "foreign" bees to mix with the native population.


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

tanksbees said:


> If the goal is to "save the bees", the worst thing you can possibly do is raise 600,000 "foreign" bees to mix with the native population.


the goal here is to be a beekeeper. honey bees are not native to north America


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## Trever (May 14, 2015)

i got a rather mean message from someone saying how im a city person and a idiot. is 4000 people in a town a city to any of you? i have a lot of space and grow a garden every year. according to this person you cant do beekeeping in a town with more then 100 people in it, is this true?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Trevor, the best way to determine whether beekeeping is possible in a particular town/city is to look at the city & state regulations. If there are city/local restrictions on beekeeping, often this is covered under zoning regulations.

Note that both New York City and San Francisco allow beekeeping, so the number of people is not really a limitation. 
More info on New Jersey rules here:

http://www.nj.gov/agriculture/divisi...f/NJBEELAW.pdf
http://www.nj.gov/agriculture/divisi...20Bees)(2).pdf
http://www.nj.gov/agriculture/divisi...uarantines.pdf

I searched the zoning rules for Clifton NJ here and found no mention of beekeeping restictions. To be sure, I suggest calling the Zoning department and asking them about any possible restrictions.


Those reading this thread from states other than NJ may be interested in this thread which has links to most other states' beekeeping regulations: http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Bee-Laws&p=969281&highlight=jersey#post969281

.


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## Trever (May 14, 2015)

thankyou. but i do wonder why there is only 20,000 registered hives in New Jersey):


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

how old are you trever? here is a link to a lot of books you can read online about beekeeping you might have to search a little bit. 
http://bees.library.cornell.edu./b/bees/browse.html
you can start with this one which is the one I started with 30 some years ago.
http://bees.library.cornell.edu./cg...no=5017633;view=image;seq=0014;node=5017633:7


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I have been running a two queen hive for a few years now and don't see why it couldn't be extended to more than two queens. They do produce a bit more than two single hives, but not much more.

They are in a long (horizontal) hive, the equivalent of 3 boxes wide and I put supers on top. The queens are kept from getting to each other via a vertical queen excluder in the middle of the long hive. So only the worker bees can move between the two sides.

A longer hive with multiple queens would work, but would difficult to move if need be. Also, you would want to have a gentle breed of bee as the more bees, the more possible stings!

So going larger would be more impractical than a single hive in a number of respects and would not generally be appealing.


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

and to answer your original post title. Why not have few very large hives instead of many small ones? in case no one has answered it yet. the simple answer is it is so much easier to handle and manipulate smaller hives. and it is better to not have all of your eggs in one basket. if you continue to pursue your interest in beekeeping and read and get hands on experience you will understand.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>i got a rather mean message from someone saying how im a city person and a idiot. is 4000 people in a town a city to any of you?

Probably a village...

> i have a lot of space and grow a garden every year. according to this person you cant do beekeeping in a town with more then 100 people in it, is this true?

I have kept bees in town most of the last 40 years. The ones in town have ALWAYS out preformed the ones in the country. There is MUCH more forage in town. People plant flowering trees and bushes and gardens and pretty flowers and they have those flowering all year around. Plus they water them in a drought. In the country the farmers poison all the land to kill every last weed. Miles and miles of bee desert without a bloom in sight. I've had bees in the middle of Omaha (metro area population 905,000) and the middle of Lincoln (metro area population 315,000) and they have always thrived. Also in Mitchell, Ne (1,700), Laramie, Wy, (32,000 although I was on the edge of town), Brighton, Co (33,000 also on the edge of town but in a housing development). Bees do very well in small towns or big cities. But one of the nice things about bees is you can find people who will let you put bees on their place and have them in multiple locations and compare for yourself...


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## Trever (May 14, 2015)

I'm currently 18 my birthday was yesterday. i plan to get into bee keeping once i'm out of school with a stable job and home. When i'm at that point i will read more in depth about How to do what i must when i do this. for now i'm trying to develop a understanding of the type of bees and hives, what bees are physically and culturally. My goal isn't Honey or a return on investment, i will probably let the bees always have All the honey they produce.My goal is to create the strongest colony's i can, i in general like honey bees.


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## rockymtnjoe (Jan 20, 2016)

From the info that I have found it is reasonable for a colony of 200,000-250,000.


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## sweetas (Apr 16, 2012)

It is a case of maths. If the queen lays 2000 eggs per day (a good queen), bees live 6 weeks (42 days) plus 21 days to hatch the maximum number of bees could be 122,000.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>My goal is to create the strongest colony's i can...

You are close to what you should be doing to maximize a honey crop. What you goal should be is to have the strongest colonies you can _right at the onset of the main flow._ The superorganism of a colony does have some limitations on what that is, but that should be your goal if you want to make honey...


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> What "Buckfasts were" and what "Buckfasts are" are two entirely different matters. I had Buckfasts for 27 years. I liked them. If I could get what I had back in 1974 again, I would use them again. But I can't. Brother Adam is gone. Not much of the original genetics are still around.


That may be, or not... Have you tried any recently? There are a LOT of folks in Europe, dedicated to preserving the Buckfast lineage, whom I suspect would strongly disagree with you.

Perhaps you should consider the numerous Buckfast sources, in a number of countries across Europe ... "_Breeders belonging to the breeders association Gemeinschaft der Europäischen Buckfastimker. This organization is maintaining a pedigree for Buckfast bees, originating from Brother Adam's years._" http://wp.gdeb.eu/ (German)

or folks like Keld Brandstrup... http://www.buckfast.dk/en/about-us.html ( English) - who strive to carry on both Brother Adams work and Buckfast genetics in Denmark.

_"Longstanding cooperation with Brother Adam from Buckfast Abbey early in his career gave Keld Brandstrup an intense interest in bee breeding. As a consequence, bee breeding is now the company’s dominant activity. His queens, which are bred according to Brother Adam’s principles, are in demand by beekeepers, universities and researchers worldwide_." 

"_The most important aspect of hive management concerns the nature of the queen. That is why the acquisition of a genuine pedigree Buckfast queen can make beekeeping more enjoyable and more profitable at the end of the day_”. 

This, in reference to the Danish Buckfast line, from whom Ferguson's say they get their Buckfast Breeders. 


RWeaver refers to "...Canadian Buckfast.." in their "All Americans". The only legal avenue into the US for Buckfast Bees is Via Canada, but there isn't any apparent limit to just Danish Buckfast.

Granted, AHB has tied US hands from directly obtaining Buckfast Bees, but not entirely. Some are still available via our northern friends.

When did your 27 year "Buckfast" run end and the "Buck-fast" begin? When was the last time you had any? Obviously, they left a very foul taste in your mouth. 

Not mine.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> Weaver Apiary was importing semen to get Buckfasts back in 1967.


And then there were the queens that Adam sent to Charles Mraz in Vermont. I met Adam's helper who packaged the queens for shipment, but not the woman who was the courier. This went on for awhile until someone checked her bags, heard the buzzing, and confiscated the last shipment.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Colobee said:


> That may be, or not... Have you tried any recently? There are a LOT of folks in Europe, dedicated to preserving the Buckfast lineage, whom I suspect would strongly disagree with you.


So true


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>What "Buckfasts were" and what "Buckfasts are" are two entirely different matters. I had Buckfasts for 27 years. I liked them. If I could get what I had back in 1974 again, I would use them again. But I can't. Brother Adam is gone. Not much of the original genetics are still around.

>That may be, or not... Have you tried any recently? 

As recently as 2001.

>There are a LOT of folks in Europe, dedicated to preserving the Buckfast lineage, whom I suspect would strongly disagree with you.

Those genetics are in Europe. Those genetics are not here in North America.

>Perhaps you should consider the numerous Buckfast sources, in a number of countries across Europe ... "Breeders belonging to the breeders association Gemeinschaft der Europäischen Buckfastimker. This organization is maintaining a pedigree for Buckfast bees, originating from Brother Adam's years." http://wp.gdeb.eu/ (German)

Importation of bees from Europe has been banned since 1922 and even importation of semen requires special permissions. I see no reason to pursue it. The local bees do fine. 

>When did your 27 year "Buckfast" run end and the "Buck-fast" begin? When was the last time you had any?

2001.

> Obviously, they left a very foul taste in your mouth. 

I would prefer AHB to the last Buckfasts I had.


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## sweetas (Apr 16, 2012)

While the debate on Buckfast bees is very interesting and very relevant it is a very long way from teh start of the thread and very large hives.

Suggest some-one start up a thread on buckfast bees.

In Western Australia we are not allowed to import bees from the other states of Australia let alone from overseas.

my 1.5 cents worth

Geoff


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## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

hives are the size they are due to years of research to find a hive that will get maximized the most.

Remember, bees will build a hive in a hollowed out tree. Think about the average size of a tree trunk...isn't it somewhat close to a 10 frame box?


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

sweetas said:


> While the debate on Buckfast bees is very interesting and very relevant it is a very long way from teh start of the thread and very large hives. Suggest some-one start up a thread on buckfast bees.
> In Western Australia we are not allowed to import bees from the other states of Australia let alone from overseas. my 1.5 cents worth Geoff


You are right - We beeks have a tendency to "drift" just like our bees.

The OP's concerns seem to have been addressed in the many good responses.

In summary - A hive can only be as large as the queen's pheromones can control. Most sources indicate that the upper limit is ~60,000 bees, at the peak. A "hive" with a base perimeter of 20' could house ~6-7 robust colonies if the queens were kept adequately separated. It would be cumbersome and immobile. No one particular race would appear to be a better candidate to build to a 600,000 bee colony, and fill such a hive. Some folks use a much smaller version, with adequate division, to house smaller "nuc" colonies.

(OP) "_and i don't understand what you guys mean about colony traits, wouldn't it just be the traits of the particular bee type?_ "

...which is how we ended up drifting over to Buckfast...... And MB's long standing grudge against some Buckfast that had obviously gotten crossed up with some AHB genetics. Let it go, Michael... Let it go...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Colobee;1370037 In summary - A hive can only be as large as the queen's pheromones can control. [/QUOTE said:


> Well, yes. But there's more to it than that. To increase the size of her broodnest, the queen has to have support staff. The more bees in a colony, the more brood. The more brood the more bees, and the more bees the more brood, etc. My cell builders that have been built up into colonies with way more bees than 60,000, have 15 frames of brood below the excluder...and 7 of those are open brood. This brood is from the hive's queen...7 frames of open brood?? Think of it. Sometimes I think we may never see the possibilities of our best queens because we do things to reduce population to below swarming threshold.
> 
> Just thinking out loud.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> "Brother Adam is gone. Not much of the original genetics are still around"


 ...except for all over Europe. He failed to take it with him when he died. ( see below - Danish Buckfast Queens)

_"Those genetics are in Europe. Those genetics are not here in North America."_

That's simply not true - I purchased 20 Buckfast queens from Ferguson's last year. In one conversation, Rosemary (Ferguson) stated "*We get our breeding stock from Denmark*". Their *"Canadian Buckfast" are Danish Buckfast daughters*. From http://www.buckfast.dk/en/breeding.html - _"Since the late seventies the Buckfast bee in Denmark is derived from original breeding material imported from the Buckfast Abbey near to Buckfastleigh on the edge of Dartmoor in Devon, UK. The purity of our stock has been maintained due to the fact that both the male and female parentage of each queen is known with 100 percent accuracy._" RWeaver mentions crossing "Canadian Buckfast" into their own "designer" line. European Buckfast genetics are likely all over both Canada AND the US ( North America). They are almost certainly here. Right now. Unless I've been lied to (and I doubt that!)

"_I see no reason to pursue it. The local bees do fine._" 

Some folks seem to be doing well developing local stock. It would likely depend on the base stock and local gene pool (or lack thereof). I suspect my "locals" would be exceptional, being based on strong Buckfast lineage. Fortunately for you, I suppose, any Buckfast genetics (especially those mean ones) are probably long gone in your area. And even more fortunately, those same mean genes never seem to have appeared or re-appeared, anywhere else. Brother Adam would be rolling over in his grave (again). And messing up all that work he took with him.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> ...The more bees in a colony, the more brood. The more brood the more bees, and the more bees the more brood, etc. My cell builders... have 15 frames of brood below the excluder...and 7 of those are open brood. This brood is from the hive's queen... Sometimes I think we may never see the possibilities of our best queens because we do things to reduce population to below swarming threshold.


That makes sense to me. The many reports of colony numbers appear to refer to "normal" conditions in most hives - & not the cell building monsters you create. 15 frames of brood, at ~7000 cells per frame - around 85,000 brood- incredible. Add all the workers and 150-200K sounds almost "feasible". I can see the possibility of getting the kinds of results you do - with your level of experience. Those surely must be pushing the upper limit (?)

Population vs swarm avoidance is a flirting dance between huge honey crops, and none at all. You certainly seem to be flirting with the boundaries. It brings to mind the biggest swarm I ever caught - probably in the neighborhood of 20-25 lbs. Imagine the numbers in the hive that they issued from...probably a mere runt next to your cell builders 

The OP speaks of planning to start with bees, and is unlikely to be capable of achieving those kinds of numbers for some time once he does. I was responding more to him, as a not yet beginner, regarding colony numbers.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Colobee said:


> You certainly seem to be flirting with the boundaries.


I was born flirting with the boundaries. 

Of course I wasn't saying these colonies are normal, or that the OP would ever see or create anything of the kind. Just showing how population can have an effect on the queen's performance.


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## Goran (Oct 27, 2012)

about 20 days before main forage 12-16 frames of brood shown OK for me, nothing more or less ( black locust forage). Not buckfast at my place..


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Colobee said:


> It brings to mind the biggest swarm I ever caught - probably in the neighborhood of 20-25 lbs. Imagine the numbers in the hive that they issued from...probably a mere runt next to your cell builders


How did that swarm work out as a hive? I am just curious and wondering if it may have been an absconded hive with some trouble that caused them to swarm.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

DanielD said:


> How did that swarm work out as a hive? I am just curious and wondering if it may have been an absconded hive with some trouble that caused them to swarm.


It was so long ago ago that I barely remember. Mostly I recall that it was a monster swarm. IIRC, they got a new mail order queen and became a fine producer. Feral swarms have never been any more than a "passing interest" for me. No matter what special consideration I give then, they just don't seem to perform "up to standard" until they are led by a proper queen. This was the case again, with feral swarms this past year. My objective (honey production) doesn't mesh well with nursing non-productive bees. 

If I had more patience that might not be the "story". We each observe what works and what doesn't, and adjust accordingly.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

A learning question here, in catching a swarm, is there any evidence in it if it's a reproductive swarm or a colony of bees that absconded?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I've only dealt with a few absconding swarms. They were always nasty mean stingers. Otherwise, they could be handled and hived like any swarm.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Fusion_power said:


> I've only dealt with a few absconding swarms. They were always nasty mean stingers. Otherwise, they could be handled and hived like any swarm.


 I didn't think about that. Their behavior is likely going to be very different. Makes sense.


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