# Commercial Beekeeping



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I have been switching out some of my older boxes with new boxes. Quite a treat. Our farm has made a deal with some local Amish box makers to barter boxes and wooden frames for breeding bulls. Fantastic deal! I also built a bunch of migratory tops and bottom board pallets that I built myself.
I couldnt bare the thought of painting all this equipment so I decided to hit up another local box maker to dip everything through his paraffin dipping tanks.
I will never paint again, dipping is the way to go!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The year before I dipped my bottom board pallets in copper naphthenate but only up to the bottom board. They walk on bare wood. That seems to be working well. I didnt fully dip because of my concern of the bees walking on that stuff


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Ian said:


> you would think it cant be good for the bees to be walking on that stuff.


*Delaplane, K. S.h & J. A. Berryh - A TEST FOR SUB-LETHAL EFFECTS OF SOME COMMONLY USED HIVE CHEMICALS*


‘Compared to non-treated controls, significantly negative effects on brood area were found for Maverik (fluvalinate) and CheckMite (coumaphos), on bee learning for *copper naphthenate* wood preservative and Maverik, and bee memory for *copper naphthenate* and Taktic (amitraz).’


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I was dreading the sight of my paint brush looking at the stack of equipment that had to be painted. Sending it off to be paraffin dipped was so nice and they came back looking very sharp.


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

Hello Ian, I to have been dipping my boxes. But here in Arizona I go ahead and paint them white while they are still hot. The paint gets sucked right down into the wood with the parafin and helps to keep the boxes cooler.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

cool deal George! How long before re painting your boxes?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Hey George, I love the guest book idea on your web page!


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Ian,
I was in that same boat last year when I bought into 2500 new boxes and had the boys nail them together and mom painted 1900+ before taking a break from that job. She lasted longer then I would have. New bottoms and lids this year. Its been some years since there has been new equipment in this old operation. New honey house and new equipment, much be time to retire.opcorn:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

ha ha ha, 
you know what,.? 

I talked to an old retired beekeeper at a meeting a few years back. At one time he had built his op to 2000 hives or something like that. He had built the op from the ground up. Took him all his beekeeping career to get his op to that number, in good boxes, working in a new honey house, running trucks that were shinny, new forklift, . . . you know the deal everything set up.
He retired from the business, sold to his son. He said he lost interest in beekeeping near the end. His words exactly "Built the business all my life, I didnt know what to do after I finished building it"
The answer to that was simple, RUN IT ! lol


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

Ian I am not sure if I could ever paint the boxes after they had been dipped and have the paint stick. After the paint is sucked into the wood the boxes have a kinda dull look even though freshly painted. I bought a bunch of pollen traps this spring that the guy didnt have the parafin good and hot and the paint is peeling already, less than a year. But my boxes are holding up fine. You might ask Keith Jarret how long he gets out of his boxes,he has some that he dipped as a young child shortly after the war between the states...lol... have to see if I get a rise out of him for that


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Ian,

Each year we build or improve the business in one way or the other. For many year we bought out a lot of comm. op and my mom was alway fixing equipment. Now there is some new money coming back into the ind. and looking to update things that needed replaced years ago. Most of our lids was just tin with a brick on top so they didn't blow away. We bought out different op which had so many size of boxes. Jumbos, deep, med. shallow, thin shallows. you get the idea. We cut boxes down or add to make the right size boxes. As a kid I spend most days on the table saw cutting frames parts. Now I buy all my frames ready to go. Spend all winter getting things ready for the next season, and hopeing that we get all done before we need it. Mom and Dad has been retired for years and finally hired a foreman to run the shop. And it all comes down to I'M STILL HAVING FUN, and IM STILL RUNNING IT!!!:banana::wiener:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The Honey Householder said:


> Ian,
> 
> And it all comes down to I'M STILL HAVING FUN, and IM STILL RUNNING IT!!!:banana::wiener:


Thats music to my ears! Me too, my wife and I , large family, farming, over run with work and kids, scraping by some years

HAVING THE TIME OF MY LIFE!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

thats why I like a place like this fourm, I can chat with beekeepers

I can go to my local coffee shop, and talk farming til you get blue in the face, but no where to talk bees! Im the only bug boy in this small horse town lol. I drop my kids off for school, and kids in the school call me "hey beeman!" LOL


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Same here Ian.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Building is the fun part. I like the mechanic's of all I need to do. Trucks, boxes, forklifts, hydraulics, painting building, engineering, creating. etc.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Take a look at this!

a vid of my wintering shed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a0_JjRSOnU&feature=channel&list=UL


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Ian that was cool. You could do tours on Halloween. It's spooky and powerful.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

As I walked the rows, I peered into some entrances, good sized clusters.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Ian, that is cool! You far northern beekeepers impress me. I know we have different challenges down here but I don't think they are even in a league with your winters.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Ian,
Have you ever got lost in you bee maze. 
Wow you guys make pulling look fun. My Dad bought an op out that pull honey that way. They ran jumbos for honey supers.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

What are Jumbos?, well I can probably guess, what are their dimentions?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian said:


> The year before I dipped my bottom board pallets in copper naphthenate but only up to the bottom board. They walk on bare wood. That seems to be working well. I didnt fully dip because of my concern of the bees walking on that stuff


Lately we have been soaking just the bottom of the sides on our hive bodies (pre assembly) in Copper Nap. That is the area where rot usually first show up. An hour in the tank usually wicks up about an inch depending on how much liquid is in the tank. Seemed like a good compromise as I was concerned about what effect it might have on the bees if the entire box was treated. I think George has the best program though.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> I think George has the best program though.


Gotta watch out for ole George. lol


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

He copied you didn't he?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Right down to the very last dime. GB, good guy.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Right down to the very last dime. GB, good guy.


Agreed


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

hey Jim how do you put up with the copper naphthenate stink on your boxes?


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Jumbos are 12" deep box. Still run a few for brood boxes. The combs in those boxes are well over 70 years old.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

boy, what a silly idea those would of been


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian said:


> hey Jim how do you put up with the copper naphthenate stink on your boxes?


We are diluting it 5:1 with mineral spirits, then painting them after assembly. They usually won't see any bees for at least a month. I don't notice the smell at that point nor have I noticed any negative impact to the bees.


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

Ian thanks for the video of your wintering shed. I have been curious about how this is done. take care GB


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

6 degrees, sitting motionless in cluster, out of the wind, out of the cold, in complete darkness, waiting for sunlight


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## Rolande (Aug 23, 2010)

Ian said:


> 6 degrees, sitting motionless in cluster, out of the wind, out of the cold, in complete darkness, waiting for sunlight


Hi Ian, nice videos, I don't know if you can offer a 'one size fits all' kind of answer here but just wondering what kind of food consumption you expect to see in those colonies over the period of their confinement? I imagine it's probably quite low but it's never worth assuming these things!

edit: another question: do they have a particularly rapid build up/zest for work once removed from their winter quarters or just behave in a 'normal' manner.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Ian said:


> The year before I dipped my bottom board pallets in copper naphthenate but only up to the bottom board. They walk on bare wood. That seems to be working well. I didnt fully dip because of my concern of the bees walking on that stuff


I presume you used the green stuff like Perme-8 (You can get water-based Cop Nap from Lowes which doesn't seem to last very long).

What did you use to dilute the cop nap? Some use mineral spirits, some use diesel.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Rolande said:


> Hi Ian, nice videos, I don't know if you can offer a 'one size fits all' kind of answer here but just wondering what kind of food consumption you expect to see
> 
> edit: another question: do they have a particularly rapid build up/zest for work once removed from their winter quarters or just behave in a 'normal' manner.


My understanding is around 40 degrees is optimal for efficiency of food consumption.
The second part of your question is an easy one. Equate confined bees to a whole bunch of grade school kids that just got out of a long day of school without recess.........or bathroom breaks.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Rolande said:


> Hi Ian, nice videos, I don't know if you can offer a 'one size fits all' kind of answer here but just wondering what kind of food consumption you expect to see in those colonies over the period of their confinement? I imagine it's probably quite low but it's never worth assuming these things!
> 
> edit: another question: do they have a particularly rapid build up/zest for work once removed from their winter quarters or just behave in a 'normal' manner.


Oh, I dont know, something like 30 or so lbs of food stores. Thats for a single hive being wintered but they winter smaller than some of my doubles I have in there, they might eat a bit more. I do not usually have starvation problems, I feed them right up in the fall.

Yes they do have a rapid build up and zest to work. Inside they will keep very little brood, and will not brood up until they are actually out and into the sunlight. Out door hives usually have a head start in this manner most years but once the indoor hives make their first flight, and start actively foraging, the queen starts up again. 
Jim is right, the first couple of days gets a bit messy!

I had made a short vid of the bees just nicely set out to show other beekeepers how active the yard gets on that first day,
if your interested you can see it here, kinda corny but shows my bees on their first flight. This vid was taken a couple of years ago, Im still using pallets and straps!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cZV3a1rDKw&feature=plcp


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Grant said:


> I presume you used the green stuff like Perme-8 (You can get water-based Cop Nap from Lowes which doesn't seem to last very long).
> 
> What did you use to dilute the cop nap? Some use mineral spirits, some use diesel.
> 
> ...


Grant, I was using the green stuff, stinks, and mixed it three or four times with mineral spirits. I did not see the water based Cop Nap but I did buy some of the Zinc Naphthenate which did not have any smell to it at all. The one thing about the Cop Naphthenate was after the pallets were done, I could tell they were treated. With the Zinc, there was no smell or change in colour, so I mixed in some Cop Nap just so it seemed like I was doing something lol


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## Rolande (Aug 23, 2010)

jim lyon said:


> Equate confined bees to a whole bunch of grade school kids that just got out of a long day of school without recess.........or bathroom breaks.





Ian said:


> Yes they do have a rapid build up and zest to work. Inside they will keep very little brood, and will not brood up until they are actually out and into the sunlight. Out door hives usually have a head start in this manner most years but once the indoor hives make their first flight, and start actively foraging, the queen starts up again.
> Jim is right, the first couple of days gets a bit messy!
> 
> I had made a short vid of the bees just nicely set out to show other beekeepers how active the yard gets on that first day,
> ...



Hi, 

Jim, Nice analogy. I was pretty much thinking of steers being turned out in the spring after being in store over the winter when I asked the question. 

Ian, thanks for taking the time to reply and post the video. I pretty much knew what the answer to the second part of the question would be but it's still nice to hear it from the ground. As for the food consumption part of my question; not a clue! A different world to anything we have over here.


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## Markt (Feb 8, 2012)

Hey Ian, what are the dimensions of your wintering building? Also do you have just one overhead door or several along the wall?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Insulated 30 by 40 Quonset, cement flooring, one overhead door on the one side.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Take a look at what my packing group is selling. 
Its fresh on the market and they have been supplying Starbucks

http://www.beemaid.com/lil-honeys


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Hey why not. Give the public what they demand. More convenience, more packaging, more shelf space and more reason for people to complain about how expensive food is.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

While I understand Jim's sentiments, I do believe that if BeeMaid (or a competitor) doesn't offer a 100% honey product packed in "convenience" packaging like this, somebody else will offer a substitute product, and that substitute _may _well be less than 100% honey.

For instance, look at _cheese _in _ready to eat _snack packages. Most of what is in the marketplace is not even *real *cheese, its _pasteurized process cheese food _product, or worse. I have neighbors that don't buy _real _cheese because its not presliced! 

The "juice drinks" are some of the worst offenders for attempting to confuse consumers. The drink called "Sunny D" in the US is only 5% actual fruit juice, but you'd never know from the advertising.
http://review.productwiki.com/sunny-delight/

So I say to BeeMaid, I hope you are successful with this product!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

yes, its all about convenience

the biggest demand is coming from business.

The problem with restaurant self serve honey jar or bottles is that its messy, and with everyone using it, it can get dirty. You know how people use things,.? 

This allows people to self serve honey for their coffee at their convenience, just like the little spreadable pockets you can get for your toast in the cafe'. Instead of reaching for the sugar packet, they will grab the honey portion pack!

Very exciting!

and apparently the equivalent environmental impact is a fraction of what plastic tub honey is,


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Thanks for posting the pic Graham, I tried and settled on giving out the link, I can not seem to be able to do that!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> While I understand Jim's sentiments, I do believe that if BeeMaid (or a competitor) doesn't offer a 100% honey product packed in "convenience" packaging like this, somebody else will offer a substitute product, and that substitute _may _well be less than 100% honey.
> So I say to BeeMaid, I hope you are successful with this product!


Dont misunderstand me. I hope it is a huge success, the bigger market for honey the better for everyone in this business. One important point here is that there have always been some health concerns with any type of reusable server in a public place. It's not unusual to see kids or maybe even adults licking them and of course they are usually messy as well. The prepackaged portion may be the way to go for restaurants and coffee shops. I am not convinced that anyone has yet developed the perfect single serving size that opens easily and dispenses neatly.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jim lyon said:


> Dont misunderstand me. . . . . . I am not convinced that anyone has yet developed the perfect single serving size that opens easily and dispenses neatly.


Oh your not hard to understand Jim, dont worry about me!
I absolutely agree with you on the opening easy and dispenses neatly part. Although, next time your in Starbuck, try one. They open easy but your fingers might get sticky, lol


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jim lyon said:


> One important point here is that there have always been some health concerns with any type of reusable server in a public place.


These businesses are talking specifically about spoons into the tub, and into the coffee, and then back into the tub, and into their mouth, and then back into the tub . . . . 
I never use a self serve honey jar at coffee shops, yikes!


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ian, like you, I was very impressed with this product. Every once in a while somebody hits out of the park.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Now I don't have to shank KFC's honey sawce packets!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Allen Martens said:


> Ian, like you, I was very impressed with this product. Every once in a while somebody hits out of the park.


Hi Allen ! 

Say, what did you think of that motion of support towards the MBA resolution passed on beeyard registration?


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## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

I like the idea of providing honey to kids or as an easy to-go solution. Much better than the KFC "Honey Sauce" packets.










Ian said:


> Take a look at what my packing group is selling.
> Its fresh on the market and they have been supplying Starbucks
> 
> http://www.beemaid.com/lil-honeys


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

how much honey in those honey sauce packs?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Ian said:


> how much honey in those honey sauce packs?


This KFC _Honey Sauce_ packet, at least, *7% *honey:








Image linked from: http://www.commonplacecrazy.com/2011/12/not-honey-honey-sauce.html


There was a time when KFC offered actual honey. I remember eating it back in the '70s. I don't know when they moved away from real honey, and have been unsuccessful in finding a photo of the real honey packets, or actual evidence of KFC real honey.

However, here is an amusing thread on the subject from 2005:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?206728-KFC-honey-packets
In particular, post #34 is from a former KFC employee who not only remembers real honey, but also when McD's fries were actually prepared from fresh potatoes at each local restaurant.


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## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

In 2007, KFC's honey sauce had 11% honey. In 2010, only 7% honey.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ian said:


> Say, what did you think of that motion of support towards the MBA resolution passed on beeyard registration?


When it comes to protection from spray damage this is a really good idea. I find that the farmers and applicators try to work with the beekeeper to minimize damage for the most part.

However, the paranoid part of me is a little concerned about having my beeyard locations declared publicly. Probably shouldn't be as most of my yards are visible from the road, though usually roads with very little traffic. My tinfoil hat side I guess.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

yes, I am with you on that. Areal applicators and the agri protection businesses need to consider us when spraying.

What do you think about imposing a minimum distance between yards? They did not get into that, but it has been the main reason why some of these guys brought up this motion years back, and that was reason why it never was adopted.

Seems to me they are attempting to progressively introduce this idea and when it is adopted by the government and acted on, they may further their intentions to create registered use sites. 
Might not be a bad thing, but we have to watch how much control we give up here,


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Saw on the LIL Honeys box that the stuff is Pasteurized. What exactly does that mean? Burnt honey, flash heated? Why does honey need to be pasteurized? Can anyone post me a link showing where a single person became ill from eating "non-Pasteurized " honey?


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Minimum distance between yards is a difficult choice for me.

Most of our production yards are what would be considered pollination yards so minimum distance would not be applied in those situations I assume. Would be very inconvenient though if the bees would need to be removed as soon the field was bloomed out, even if another blooming field was only a short distance away.

For the most part, if possible, I prefer fewer regulations. Don't really know if we need a minimum distance rule and I think you are right about this potentially being a first step. That being said, when someone sets up a yard of 100 close to one of my long established spring/fall yards (been the family for 25 years), I start wondering whether a minimum distance rule has merit.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Honey-4-All said:


> Why does honey need to be pasteurized? Can anyone post me a link showing where a single person became ill from eating "non-Pasteurized " honey?


Much of this is consumer, retailer and government regulation driven. 

I suspect, and I am only speculating, that the honey needs to reach temps close to pasteurization anyways to maintain liquid form in the packs.


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