# bees dragging out pupa. why?



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

In my opinion varroa mites are still the most likely culprit. Once the ailing bee pupae has been removed from the cell...the foundress mite(s) will move on to another victim.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

What is the mite load in the hive? Pupa that have been infected by virus transmitted by the mite will be removed. This is worthwhile hygienic behavior, but also is a sign the mites are getting ahead of the efforts of the bees to control them. If you want to preserve the favorable genotype of the hive, you must consider reducing the mite count by an intervention.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Like others have said, it could very well be a mite issue. Also, that pupa was quite large. Probably a drone. Mites are known to favor drone larvae. But, if the bees are evicting drones, could this possibly include drone pupae?

Shane


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

JWChesnut said:


> If you want to preserve the favorable genotype of the hive, you must consider reducing the mite count by an intervention.


What good is saving this hygienic behavior via intervention? If one has to intervene to save the bees, I don't get its value.


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## OhioBee (May 30, 2014)

Wow! What a great video! I'm jealous. My bees are on the farm next door and I don't get "quality" time...


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Barry said:


> What good is saving this hygienic behavior via intervention? If one has to intervene to save the bees, I don't get its value.


If my hives were being decimated by mites--all but one--then yes I would definitely save that hive's genetics to use as a starting place. My goal would be to increase the hygienic behavior until it could whip the mites all on its own. THAT would become the hive I'd breed from. 

Obviously wishing the mites away isn't working. Maybe breeding them away will have more success. In fact, that's precisely what I am trying to do with my own hives!

JMO


Rusty


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

tsmullins said:


> But, if the bees are evicting drones, could this possibly include drone pupae?
> Shane


They are also evicting drones. I filmed that too at the same hive just minutes after the pupa vid. I hope you're right Shane. I keep hoping my bees won't get mites because they have Russian genes, they were born and raised on 4.9mm small cell and I have *first year foundation-less frame new comb*. I know this is wishful thinking and I'm also aware that all bees in North America have mites. But just maybe.....

Anyway, now to figure out my options if in fact I do have mites. My plan was to be a TF beekeeper but I also have a responsibility to keep my animals alive. Here's a vid of the girls kicking out my drones. They tag team them. The vid cuts off just when it gets good because the mosquitoes were eating me alive!


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Larva does look like a drone and the eyes are dark so it was capped, I don't know if they will uncap drones to evict them or wait.


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

OhioBee said:


> Wow! What a great video! I'm jealous. My bees are on the farm next door and I don't get "quality" time...


Thanks. My bees are 60' from my back patio.


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

FlowerPlanter said:


> I don't know if they will uncap drones to evict them or wait.


Me either. I'll look that up in The Hive and the Honey Bee tonight. It might also be in ABC and XYZ.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

JustinH, your apiary is stunning. Do you mind if i ask where you got the hives? Are they cedar?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Wouldn't they eat the pupae instead of dragging them out? Seems like a waste of resources to just toss all that protein? Or is there a point in development that it doesn't make sense to do that?

Also, regarding that drone video... nature is a mean place! I keep waiting for my hives to do this, but they have not so far.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Not too shabby on the video. I take it you have an image-stabilized camera?

That almost could be my hives ... on a stand with gravel underneath, and tame enough that they don't attack the camera. When I've done video at my mentor's place, you see his bees bumping the black camcorder. At our own place I can get in close.


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

estreya said:


> JustinH, your apiary is stunning. Do you mind if i ask where you got the hives? Are they cedar?


Thanks. The Ultimate Hive stands are from BetterBee. Supers (all 8 frame mediums) were from Kelley Bees and are pine I think. The copper garden style tops came from Dadant. Low VOC paint from Lowes.


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> regarding that drone video... nature is a mean place!


I still feel bad for the drones being evicted like that. Since they don't sting, I'm tempted to bring them in the house but I know they would just die anyway. Maybe I could add them to my oatmeal and get some free protein. I'm only half joking.


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

Phoebee said:


> Not too shabby on the video. I take it you have an image-stabilized camera?
> 
> That almost could be my hives ... on a stand with gravel underneath, and tame enough that they don't attack the camera. When I've done video at my mentor's place, you see his bees bumping the black camcorder. At our own place I can get in close.


Filmed with my iPhone 5s. I suit up when I inspect my hives but when I'm just hanging out filming, I'm usually just wearing flip flops and shorts. My bees are not aggressive but they sting me sometimes. That's when I call it a day.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> Also, regarding that drone video... nature is a mean place! I keep waiting for my hives to do this, but they have not so far.


He sure was not cooperating. Very sad for a guy to watch.

Excuse me, I need to take a frozen green drone frame outside and examine dead pupae for mites.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

JustinH, You've got very steady hands. We need to get you a little video editing software.


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

Phoebee said:


> JustinH, You've got very steady hands.


lol. That's as steady as I can be when I'm watching mosquitoes land on me. Those things love me in the evening time.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Thank you for the information, JustinH. I'll check it all out. Meanwhile, continued good luck with your beautiful hives!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> If my hives were being decimated by mites--all but one--then yes I would definitely save that hive's genetics to use as a starting place.


I couldn't find anywhere in the OP that this is the case.


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## LanduytG (Aug 29, 2013)

I have a hive thats been doing the same thing for a week. Since they were kicking out live drones I just figured the pupa they were bringing out were drones too. Some were developed enough and had big eyes.

Greg


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Two blog posts that document drone pupa removal following inclement weather/starvation conditions.
http://www.beverlybees.com/drone-pupae/
http://mudsongs.org/piles-of-dead-larvae/

I did a screen capture of the drone in the OP video. Looks like the head has been eaten, and the wings are approximately correctly sized for a purple eye drone. DWV drones have crispy, twisted wings by this stage.



(its completely off topic, but the purpose of preserving moderately advantageous phenotypes is that selective breeding is a slow, gradual build up of favorable alleles, you pick the best, even if imperfect).


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Justin the type of bees you have like there populations of worker and drone at a certain level this time of year. If you look they probably have just caped some drones or some have just emerged causing an imbalance in their population, that's why they're kicking out drones and removing pupae(probably more drone than workers). I know this breed of bees very well. In October the end of September there abouts they will go through a major eviction, don't be alarmed. In the winter they keep a tight small cluster don't let that worry you either. They are very frugal in the winter.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

LanduytG said:


> I just figured the pupa they were bringing out were drones too.


 Why not open up the hive and see how the capped brood comb looks? If solid.....good......


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## LanduytG (Aug 29, 2013)

If I can do it today I will but its 46 degrees this morning. If not today it will be Monday for sure.

Greg


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

JWChesnut said:


> (its completely off topic, but the purpose of preserving moderately advantageous phenotypes is that selective breeding is a slow, gradual build up of favorable alleles, you pick the best, even if imperfect).


Doesn't appear to be off topic. Most beekeepers never see chewing out of pupa because they treat for mites. I think it's safe to say that nearly all bees will do this if treatment is withheld, especially this time of year as the bees deal with the highest mite loads and prepare for winter. It's nothing special. What's special are those bees that do this and are able to stay ahead of the mite damage, but you will never know if you go and treat them.

I went through this years ago when I quit using treatments and saw for the first time how bees respond to mite loads. Here are a few pictures I took.

Image 1
Image 2
Image 3
Image 4


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Barry, very informative! Thank you!

Looking at your photographs, i'm thinking it might be easy to mistake chewed pupae for older larvae at first blush (maybe it's more obvious first hand). I'll look more carefully during this weekend's inspection/dusting.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

A couple of the swarms we caught this year displayed relatively "heavy" uncapping of brood when they were in their first wave of capped brood. It was enough that one of them began to concern me. Stores looked good, everything else seemed normal. Now both of those hives (both with their original swarm queens) have pretty much wall-to-wall brood. I think I saw only 2-3 uncapped yesterday during our inspection.

Here's a picture of a typical brood bar from the one in a TBH:









The swarm in the lang, I forgot to take a picture of yesterday evening. I suspect they were both swarms originating from a fairly long occupied bee tree. Queens look nearly identical and both swarms were captured from the exact same fence post.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

My personal, somewhat clumsy and inexperienced, record of removing drone pupae from capped cells is that yanking them by the head frequently decapitates them. Possibly that's because I'd just defrosted them, but I get the impression the head comes off fairly easily.

When they're less developed and still look like larvae, they're quite delicate and mushy. They're easier to handle when purple-eyed. 

I doubt they chew heads off, but they might pull them off trying to get them out.


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