# 2 frame or 5 frame nuc?



## JWPalmer

Jade, you will get the most bang for your buck with the 2-frame nuc,also referred to as a mating nuc. Only requires about a cup of bees, 600-700, to populate. Good for a ripe queen cell about to pop. Terrible as a walkaway split. I ordered two queen castles from Brushy Mountain last week. Each can be used as 4 2-frame nucs or 2 4-frame nucs. Much cheaper than building individual boxes. Saw one of my new queens in her mating nuc yesterday. Another mating nuc was bringing in pollen this morning. No eggs expected until Tuesday. These bees got one frame of brood and one frame of mixed stores plus a syrup feeder on top. Not sure you will get much foundation drawn with so few bees.


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## sakhoney

Going for numbers - use 2 framers - get a mated queen inside - then the queens that miss oh well. Queens that hit - move to full size boxes and give them a couple of frames of sealed brood - then they will take off. This will also let you stretch your brood you have now.


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## Jadeguppy

Okay. Two frame it is. I have the plywood partially cut already. I've looked at the castles, but I'm not fully sold on the multiple lids, yet...

Should mediums be three frame? or is two fine for mating the queen?

sakhoney, most will need pulled from a 10 frame hive. I had to restart this year. I did buy two nucs, one is now 10 frame and the other is 10 deep brood box w/ honey super.


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## Richinbama

Jade, did some looking around on this. Why not use a 5 frame nuc, put in a division board. And wallah... 2 2 frame nucs, just add a feeder...


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## Jadeguppy

Rich, I'm playing with that idea. It will cut down on how many need built. Two sides may be easier to manage than the four of the queen castle. The trick is how to get the line cut for the divider.


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## Richinbama

Ill cut all mine for new, and add a 1/2" grove in center, before gluing and stapling. Then just slide in the 1/2 inch divider board. Using a table saw with standard blade here, no dado will fit on my ryobi el cheapo saw.


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## little_john

Jadeguppy said:


> Rich, I'm playing with that idea. It will cut down on how many need built. Two sides may be easier to manage than the four of the queen castle. The trick is how to get the line cut for the divider.


My thoughts on this are that it's not just the number of frames which is important, but also their size.

Boxes made for getting queens mated (mating nucs) and boxes made for raising nucs (nuc boxes) are different animals. 

For mating, you really want small (1/2 or 1/3rd-sized frames), as with this size spotting the queen for removal is much easier. 3 such frames provide twice the laying area as 2, as bees tend to ignore the outermost faces of the comb array, and yet you don't need that many more bees to stock them.

For raising nucs, it's desirable to use the same size frame starting-off as you intend to build-up the finished nuc with. Same story as above with the number of frames - only here it's more relevant - 3 frames provide twice the laying space compared with 2. My own preference is to use 5-frame nuc boxes, with 2 dummy frames inserted for mating the queen, then remove them one at a time as the nuc grows in size. Just another way of 'skinning the cat'.

Divided boxes are a mixed blessing - yes, they save on wood (BTW, the easiest way of cutting slots is with a router, if a table saw can't be used) - but are troublesome when it comes time to remove the bees. With single boxes you can simply jolt or brush the remaining bees out, after the frames have been pulled - but with a divided box you can't.

With Florida sunshine you shouldn't have any problem at all in maxing-out your apiary by starting-off with small nucs - but those in colder climates (like the UK) tend to be more successful by producing fewer, larger nucs (say, 5-frame) especially if their weather is unpredictable in the second half of the season.
LJ


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## JWPalmer

Jade, you're in mediums right? Use three frames or the nuc will grow so fast it swarms before you can get it in a regular nuc or hive.

LJ, never cconsidered the getting the bees out of the box part. At least now I can think about it. I toyed with the idea of using mini mating nucs but opted for using frames I could easily move to full size boxes.


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## little_john

JWPalmer said:


> I toyed with the idea of using mini mating nucs but opted for using frames I could easily move to full size boxes.


A lot of people use mini-mating nucs with great success - but my attempts have always failed miserably - so up until now I've been using full-sized frames in 5-frame nuc boxes (3 to 5 frames, as needed) - with no problems at all. I did try 6-frame nuc boxes, divided into 2x 3-frames, but frequently found that most of the bees relocated into the half with the 'best' queen ! Plus the problem of getting the bees out ... so that idea didn't work out too well. LOL

This year I'm trying half-sized (really more like 1/3rd-sized) frames in divided boxes with the same footprint as 5-frame nuc boxes - but those are just for queen-mating. I'm sticking with full-sized frames for raising 5-frame nucleus colonies with - but that's more to do with the unpredictable weather conditions we have over here.
LJ


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## Michael Bush

Two frame nucs are nice to get a queen mated. Five frame nucs are better if your intent is for the nuc to grow up to a hive.


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## Jadeguppy

With the issues of hive beetles and other pests, will starting with a cup of bees in a five frame for mating the queen and growing out the colony be highly problematic? I want to be able to spread out my resources as much as possible, but don't want to lose the hive to pests. I hope to be able to get away with one frame of brood and feeding them. This will be especially helpful if I can expand while the bees are bearding during the summer. Put them to work making more hive instead of lounging in the Florida sun.


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## Richinbama

Hi jade, I don't think a cup of bees would work on a five frame nuc. Too much space. It would work on a 2 or 3frame though. Got to have bees covering brood, and also.protecting from moths, beetles, and mites. My thought was doind 2-3 frame breeding nucs, then when queen laying and first frames of brood hatch out, then move them to 5frame nucs. Then start the 2-3 framers all over again from queen cells. That way you keep a continual flow of bees in and out going to nucs 5 framers. Also, adding a second 5 frame box on nucs can make em strong to sell, and splits. From 5- 10 frame nucs.


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## tech.35058

Regardless of the frame size, you need enough bees to cover the combs. 
If you want tiny mating colonies, make some half frames & boxs/compartments to match.
Kind of tedious getting comb drawn on the mini frames tho.
God luck, ce


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## Jadeguppy

It feels like two things are being discussed. When talking number of frames, are we talking full comb/brood frames, mix of brood/comb with foundation, or some other mix? Also for needing two to three frames, are you indicating the box must only fit that many or that only that many are put in the box. I'm now wondering what will happen if I put a frame of brood and a foundation frame in a 5 frame nuc box and then add more frames as the population grows.


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## Richinbama

If ya put 2 or 3 or even 4 frames in a 5 frame box, what do you get... wild comb, and a mess. If you put 5 frames in a five frame box, and you don't have adequate bees to draw the frames out, or have enough bees to cover the brood... what happens??? Brood gets chilled, or hive beetles over run ya, or wax moths take over. I think the general idea is to hatch out the queen, and get her bred, then you put the queen where you don't have one, or your trying to build a small amount of bees to the point that you can start a small nuc colony, and grow your bees.. isn't that what we were talking about. ?


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## Richinbama

Howdy Chris, you hitnitnon the head !!! How ya doing today?


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## msl

I think you asking the wrong question 
you have a LONG season, Sam comfort starts grafting in Jan.. so you can start with a few mateing nucs and keep adding as the season goes on. .
So the resources to start a mating nuc are less of an issue then the brood needed to take a queen out of the mating nuc and place her in a nuc that will grow out do to the amount of time you can keep that mating nuc running. there is a difference in mangmne if your goule is mated queens VS making new nucs for increase in that light having a mating nuc big enugf to take a frame or 2 out of to make a new start may be usefull. 
say you graft 10 cells weekly in to a free flying queen less starter/finisher and run a 3 week cycle. So after you set up the cell builder you need 20 frames a week for 3 weeks to make mateing nucs, from there you need 20 or so frames a week of brood/food to place those queens in to grow out ... and a few frame to add to the starter finisher
Were do those come from and what hive makes them the best in your area is the question you need to look at

next set goles.... "max expansion" is meanness... you need to say X amout of hives/queens/nucs/what ever and then work the numbers for the resources and wood wear your going to need to hit that gole.


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## Jadeguppy

Rich, good point. I should have been thinking of that.

msl, yes resources for brood is a issue. I don't think I can support 10 at the moment.


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## JWPalmer

Jade, you can use your 5 frame medium nucs as mating nucs. You will want to give them a frame of brood, a frame with honey, and a frame of foundation. You will also need a follower board which you can make to basicaly seal off the rest of the hive. It needs to fit snugly from the top of the box down to the bottom board so it is taller than a regular frame and be snug along the sides as well. The follower board gets moved as the nuc expands until you have five frames in it. Unless your two hives are expanding rapidly, I doubt you have the resources to make more than two of these at a time. You don't want to pull frames from the two nucs you just made, at least not yet. I hope I am staying current with where you are splitwise so I don't make a bad suggestion. Two hives, two nucs, one not doing all that well?


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## Jadeguppy

jw, good memory. I haven't heard of a follower board, but that sounds like a great option. We just got back from checking the two nucs and hives. Nuc one still has the two supercedure cells. Three of four in the hive they came from have hatched. The nuc also has 5+ emergency cells built. Nuc 2 finally has emergency cells, many of which are sealed. Both hives are doing well. Hive one has about half the honey super filled and hive 2 is filling in the foundation frames I put in there to replace what I pulled. I still have some deep frames mixed in, but am slowly switching over.


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## JWPalmer

Sounds like they are really doing well.

Thought I'd share a picture of my mating nucs. This was taken about 7:30 this evening so there is very little activity but all three had bees coming and going while I was out there. They yellow box on the end is still empty.









The box on top covers the mason jar feeder.


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## Jadeguppy

We are feeling good about them. I am going to totally go nuts waiting for the queens to emerge and mate. lol

Yours look great. How long can you keep them in the mating nucs before moving them to 5 frames?


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## JWPalmer

They are in there with a frame of honey, so only one brood frame which is now empty. A deep has about 3500 cells per side for a total of 7000. If the queen starts off at 1000 eggs per day, I have about six days before she runs out of room. Idealy, one would transfer to a 5 frame nuc before that happens. Breeders use the mating nuc a little differently since they are only after the queen (we want the queen and brood).The U of G website has a video of making up the mini mating nuc, the concept is the same.









The three nucs on the right are waiting for the queens in the other boxes to get mated. The yellow one on the left is my walkaway split from Easter and the red 5 over 5 nuc is my original queen from the feral hive. She will go into a 10 frame box in another week or so.


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## Jadeguppy

Awesome. What will this bring your total to?


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## JWPalmer

I overwintered two hives and a nuc. One hive and two nucs succumbed to poor management. Currently at three hives, two nucs, and three mating nucs for a total of eight. Hope to keep splitting until I get to twenty. Got my first call for a bee removal. Bees are in a cavity in a cherry tree and the owner wants the tree left intact. Going to take a look Saturday. May need to build a bee vac.


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## Jadeguppy

You are ahead of me, but I'm not as experienced and had to wait for my starter nucs. 20 sounds like an awesome goal. Please post pics of the removal. Exciting!
I'm considering buying queens and splitting everything mid-June. Love the idea of not spending money on queens, but really want to maximize my number of hives. I put a cage over one of the emergency cells in hopes that I can get an extra queen to put in another nuc.


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## JWPalmer

The benfit of using the Nicot system is that the cages are readily available. I haven't found the cages for the Jzbz cups yet and really need to find a way to harvest and protect qc's that I cut off of frames. To me, every swarm cell or emergency queen cell is another nuc waiting for some bees.


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## Richinbama

Hi j.w, are your mating boxes 2 or 3 frames? Looks like a nice yard there.


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## Richinbama

Hi Jade, jw. Im not as far along as you guys. Id love to study some of the queen rearing info. Right now, im about as basic , as basic gets...lol. im getting my bees next monday. Ive got allot built up in med. Frame stuff. I do like the simplicity of keeping everything the same. I havenallot of plans for the bees, and hope to grow with them. Jade and i have talked a bit on this subject, and i like the 2 or 3 frame queen rearing nucs. Havnt decided on which yet. I think the 3 frame may be the best to go with long term though. I'll probably initially go with2 farm, just because of lack of resources to start off. Any recommendations jw.? I do need to figure out feeding strategy on 2 and 3 frame nucs. Ie syrup, and pollen subs... Any ideas on syrup would help on the 2 frame model. As space is restrictive for syrup... ? Thanks, Richard.


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## Richinbama

Hi Jade, I think the rain will.move out here tonight or tomorrow !!! I'll be building out some med. Boxes, and mabye some 2 or three frame nucs. Awaiting some Devine wisdom on which to go with....lol ??? If I can figure out a strategy to feed syrup on 2 frame, those will be my starting point to build.


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## JWPalmer

My personal opinion is that a two frame medium is too small for a hobby beekeeper who may go several days between working the hives. Mine are two frame deeps. This rationale is consistant with the BM queen castle. The deep version allows for four 4 frame nucs but the medium version only allows for three 3 frame nucs. As soon as the rain here stops, I hope to start checking queen status in the remaining three nucs. I have already found two of the five new queens. Rich, you will need to give your bees a chance to get established before making splits and by then you should have resources like comb, pollen, and honey to give the nucs without setting the parent hives back too far.
For feeding, my two frame nucs are just wide enough to get a pint mason jar inside the upper box.


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## Jadeguppy

JWPalmer said:


> The benfit of using the Nicot system is that the cages are readily available. I haven't found the cages for the Jzbz cups yet and really need to find a way to harvest and protect qc's that I cut off of frames. To me, every swarm cell or emergency queen cell is another nuc waiting for some bees.


I put a cage over an emergency cell yesterday. Had to pull some empty frames to fit the cage on, but my thoughts are like yours. I hope it means another queen for another nuc. I wish it was a swarm or supercedure so I could remove it and stick it into a roller cage, but gotta go with what they give me. Nicot may be a plan for this weekend or I may wait until the dearth for it.


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## Jadeguppy

The nuc I built yesterday will hold a deep if I want. I am still transitioning, so what I pull from the mother hive is often a deep. If they build below the bar on the medium, it just gives me comb to put into a foundationless frame, so I'm currently not worrying about the box being too deep. I like JW's suggestion of a divider in the five frame nuc box. However, I'm having trouble finding instructions on best methods. What draws me to that idea is that I only need to make nucs, use one as two mating boxes and then remove the divider and move one set to another nuc. Less bulky equipment to store. I will probably try to build the next one with a channel to put a divider in.


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## larrypeterson

I tried the split box method last year and observed that if it is not exactly level, that one side does not drain after a storm. I appeared to me that the bees do a better job of keeping their floor clean if it has a very slight tilt toward the entrance. I guess every waY has its good side and bad. Good thread!


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## Richinbama

I found a neat idea today. Instead of worrying about permanent divider board... using polystyrene, like pink or blue board from home depot. They have several thicknesses and you cut it the size you need. If you want a nuc of bees, pull one or 2 frames with a queen on it, put it into another nuc. Pull the poly insulation board out, and a couple of empty frames in it. When the brood hatches you got a 5 frame nuc to sell or build up a little for a real hive started. Just transfer to a full size hive and let it grow out. Then ya start over, and you got 2 queen breeding nuc again.


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## souficoufi

Bonjour
2 cadres au début de printemps 5 cadres au milieu du printemps ,je crois.


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## davemal

Some say a disadvantage of a queen castle is the difficulty removing the remaining bees from one of the sections after having pulled all the frames out. Why not just put a lid on that particular section. Doing so darkens the section and the only light comes from the entrance. The bees will leave on their own accord, right?


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## JWPalmer

Rich, divider boards and follower boards are not permanent. They are easily removed if not propolized. I have read that foam insulation board inside the hive gets chewed up by the bees. Other beekeepers recommend covering exposed surfaces with aluminum tape. I have no direct experience using it in a beehive other than for insulating the hive tops.


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## JWPalmer

davemal said:


> Some say a disadvantage of a queen castle is the difficulty removing the remaining bees from one of the sections after having pulled all the frames out. Why not just put a lid on that particular section. Doing so darkens the section and the only light comes from the entrance. The bees will leave on their own accord, right?


Bee vac! Just kidding.


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## Jadeguppy

Rich, having a few stragglers probably isn't a big deal. if you pull half and then remove the board to grow the other half up, they will work it out. If you reuse it for mating, same thing.

jw, any idea on how common it is to have the bees glue the follower board down to make it really hard to remove. I hadn't thought of that.


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## souficoufi

Oui! c'est la bonne réponse.


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## JWPalmer

Not sure. Follower board woud be just like a frame as far as getting glued in. Mating nucs don't have many foragers so popolis shouldn't be as much of a problem and dividers probably will just need a good tug. Just projecting on known and observed behavior.


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## Richinbama

I like the idea of the divider board. I'll make one or two next week that I can insert. Will not be difficult to put one in from build. A basic table saw here, should work fine. I'll also build some 2 and 3 frame nucs.


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## Jadeguppy

souficoufi said:


> Oui! c'est la bonne réponse.


THis is the second time this person has posted. IS there anyone that can translate what is being posted?


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## JWPalmer

If you are on a smart phone like I am, just use google translate. It means yes, that is the right answer.I translated it as good answer, but I don't speak French.


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## tulsafarmer

Jadeguppy said:


> THis is the second time this person has posted. IS there anyone that can translate what is being posted?


He said hello, 2 frames in the spring, 5 frames in the summer.. His second reply was yes, it's a reply,. It's French.


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## David ryle

Jadeguppy said:


> THis is the second time this person has posted. IS there anyone that can translate what is being posted?


'That's a good idea'


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