# Sawdust to absorb moisture in winter?



## PAHunter62 (Jan 26, 2011)

I stumbled across this site before last winter and built a couple of these for on my hives:

http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php

I added #8 hardware screening inside the boxes this spring and left them on the hives to add ventilation all summer.

Last winter was not a good test of them due to the mild winter, but I do think they were a big help during the coldest periods.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Many things have been tried for absorbing moisture over the winter. Part of the problem, however, is that the bees continuously produce moisture when they burn honey to stay warm. The amount they produce during the winter is far more than you can absorb with any reasonable amount of material. It seems to work much better to let the moisture out the top than to try to absorb it.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Mike, Do you reduce your entrances, or leave the full-width top entrance open?

Adam


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

PAHunter62 said:


> I stumbled across this site before last winter and built a couple of these for on my hives:


That looks pretty cool! I'm reluctant to experiment because I have only one hive.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> It seems to work much better to let the moisture out the top than to try to absorb it.


Makes sense. Would you recommend something simple like shimming the top cover with popsicle sticks?

BTW, your website has been a big help. Thanks!


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)




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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Bear Creek Steve said:


> View attachment 3105


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

i used a vent with a quiltbox full of sawdust last year and it worked great. It would be too much work and money for over 20 hives. I moved to migratory tops that can be used as bottom boards as well w/vent for this year.


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

trying to reinvent the wheel? i often wonder what makes so many new beekeepers imagine they can come up with a management plan that is better than the successful systems used for hundreds of years-before they make it through the first year. beekeeping must have a great appeal to optimists


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

mike haney said:


> trying to reinvent the wheel?


I wouldn't call it reinventing the wheel, per se. In my case, at least, I'm so green I'm not sure exactly what the wheels are. Combine that with an inclination to solve problems, and I'm bound to suggest something that's already been tried.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Before the advent of Expanded Poly Styrene, many of the oldtimers would place a moving screen over the top of the hive, and then an empty deep, and fill the empty deep with straw.

Crazy Roland


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Mike: When I got started in beekeeping 65 years ago my father covered his hives (sides and top) in the winter with celotex and wraped with tar paper all tied with binder twine. I've always been an experimenter, and sometimes things do work better.

Splatt: I've tried a number of winterization approaches and am entering my third winter with the wood shavings on top. Each year I've reduced my winter losses and thus I think I'm headed in the right direction, IMHO. I'm just tweeking the wheel and I will always be an optomist.

Steve


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

mike haney said:


> trying to reinvent the wheel?


Yes, the one we have is flat and shredded.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Splatt said:


> Has anyone put a layer (1" or so) of fairly coarse sawdust in a screened-bottom vent box at the top of their hive during the winter? It seems to me that it might solve the problem of moisture killing the bees.


Let the moisture out. Storing moisture is not a good idea. Once you've captured it what do you do w/ it? What happens when the storage medium is holding as much moisture as it can hold?

Venting is the best way to go. As it is in your own house.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

In past threads, some people have stated that they have had success using various materials to absorb moisture.

I use Homasote over my inner covers as an insulating and moisture absorbing material. I cut the Homasote slightly undersize to have the edges better exposed to the air. My inner covers are notch-down year round, and my top boxes have upper entrances drilled into them. In general, there has been very little moisture absorbed into the Homasote. 

I sometimes put fondant on hives in January. I remove the Homasote and place the chunk of fondant over the center opening in the inner cover. The Homasote is then placed on top of the box that's added to insulate the "attic".


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## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

I tried using cedar shavings last year. It seems because I didn't have it vented enough above the shavings, that I had a big moisture issue and mold. Ounce I propped the top cover open, the moisture had a way to escape. You may want to try drilling large holes and screening them off so nothing sets up camp in there.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

mike haney said:


> trying to reinvent the wheel? i often wonder what makes so many new beekeepers imagine they can come up with a management plan that is better than the successful systems used for hundreds of years-before they make it through the first year. beekeeping must have a great appeal to optimists


I'm glad James Watt didn't think this way, or we'd still be riding horses and sailing ships.


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## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

In most cases, I usually ignore the wheel comment. There's nothing wrong with experimenting and trying new things for yourself. Don't let anyone convince you of anything other than that.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Splatt said:


> Has anyone put a layer (1" or so) of fairly coarse sawdust in a screened-bottom vent box at the top of their hive during the winter? It seems to me that it might solve the problem of moisture killing the bees.


I've tried it but with a few inches of shredded leaves, and a small vent under the top cover. I vented by pitting a 1/16" shim at the corners.

The top 1/8" or so leaves was damp, but that was all. Moisture evaporated and vented out as fast as it accumulated.
The leaves were effective enough as insulation to keep it very warm at the screen board.


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## Ozone (May 24, 2011)

Would this 'saw shavings' or whatever harbor insects? If so the optimum material would be cellulose insulation, which contains boric acid which would inhibit mold and insects. Coupled with a vent above it should work. 

Ok , let me have it. Just no 'bird comments.


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

Like some have pointed out, let the moisture out.

Wait until the propolis is hard and pry the inner cover. A gap will be created by the stiff propolis not wanting to fit together.

Angle the outer cover back so the front edge sits on the inner cover. This is what I do with no moisture issues.


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

"...an inclination to solve problems...."
Problem solving skills usually don't translate well when applied to living creatures and complicated by constantly changing genetics and the vagrancies of local weather and fauna.
That's why beekeeping is more ART than SCIENCE


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

Beregondo said:


> I'm glad James Watt didn't think this way, or we'd still be riding horses and sailing ships.


The point is Mr Watt KNEW how to ride and sail and grasped the physics involved -FIRST.


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

"...There's nothing wrong with experimenting and trying new things for yourself..."
As long as one is aware that failed "experiment " will possibly result in a failed hive.
Many ideas are promoted by starting out saying "I read somewhere..." and the lack of context is misleading. Was this a plan that succeeded? Does this scheme translate well to different weather patterns? Was it a plan at all or just speculation by someone who lacked a grasp of the physiology of bees?


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## G Barnett (May 13, 2012)

I tend to think of my hives as houses. The attic of my house is insulated and vented year-round and there is no material designed to capture moisture. Would the same principles apply to the hive?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Actually James Watt was neither a sailor nor an Equestrian. He Re Invented the steam engine. He was a mechanical Engineer and most likely had little knowledge of any particular end use of the engine.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

G Barnett said:


> I tend to think of my hives as houses. The attic of my house is insulated and vented year-round and there is no material designed to capture moisture. Would the same principles apply to the hive?


Kinda, the "ceiling" of the hive (inner cover), if insulated, is less likely to have condensation dripping from it. The cold walls of the hive will have moisture condensing on them which is a good thing.

Upper entrances will allow some air flow which will carry some moisture with it. I saw some pictures somewhere that showed frost around an upper entrance.


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Splatt,

I used boxes a pine shavings similar to the Warre Quilt Box last winter on all my Langstroth hives. Compared to the 27 out of 30 I lost the previous winter, I didn't lose any colonies last year. Granted, it wasn't much a winter last year, but they likely contributed to my 0% losses last winter and my increase to 150 colonies this year. The one point I would make is the shaving don't absorb moisture from the ambient air, as most folks think. Instead, they appear to catch the condensation from the inner cover before it rains on your cluster. When checked through the winter, only the upper inch of shaving ever felt damp, but even that was rare.

I put the quilt box (a medium with window screening stapled to the bottom about 2/3 full of shavings) on top of upper-most box, then the standard inner cover is placed on top of the quilt box, topped off by a telescoping slid forward to expose the ventilation notch. I placed remote thermometer/hygrometers (Meade TM005-X) in two hives and recorded less than 80% relative humidity the entire season until removal at spring inspections. (Note: Relative humidity did mirror changes in outside relative humidity.) I did not experience any mold growth or vermin infestation in the colonies or shavings, unlike the previous years. I did have minor mold growth on the tops of some of the inner covers. Although these quilt boxes appeared to help in colony survival and help eliminate previous moisture problems, the mild winter and my other management may have contributed to the lack of losses. I also cut off the landing boards on all the bottom boards (to prevent the accumulation of snow and ice at the entrance), left all the screened bottom boards open, used entrance reducers to help against robbing, used 1/4" hardware cloth as a mouse preventative, raised all hives onto a pair of chimney blocks to prevent skunk problems, and wrapped each hive with black felt paper for solar gain so the bees could break cluster to access food better and an unanticipated benefit of snow melt around the hives eliminating shoveling snow away from the entrances. Also note, I don't use top entrances. I was trying to achieve a stratification of heat in the hive. I was trying to test the hypothesis that bees only warm the cluster, not the box. Since hive temperature recordings never dipped below 75F, it appears the cluster will heat the hive to some degree, and is retained if not allowed to vent though upper entrances.

Being a skeptic, I don't want to imply these quilt boxes are a silver bullet to colony survival. They might be another tool for us to consider if your local overwintering environment would benefit from the insulating and moisture control this device aids.

Hope this helps,
Steve


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## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

Splatt said:


> Has anyone put a layer (1" or so) of fairly coarse sawdust in a screened-bottom vent box at the top of their hive during the winter? It seems to me that it might solve the problem of moisture killing the bees.


Splatt,

The naysayers will indeed nay-say. 

Try it, and see if it works for your bees. As I and some others suggested already, just make sure you vent above the saw dust or which ever material you chose to go with.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Attic is getting close but think adding moisture. This is really about dew point and relative humidity (or as my wife would say, physics blab la). Warm air holds more moisture than cold air, heat moves from hot to cold, air cannot hold more moisture than dew point (100% relative humidity). Bees are warm and moist, this air moves up the hive where it contacts cooler surfaces. If it is below the dew point of the existing air mix the moisture condenses. Correct me if I am wrong but MB lets it out before it condenses and the others are attempting to keep it from dripping. See Psychrometrics 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychrometrics
Does anybody try to slope a top cover to direct the moisture where it will do no harm?


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

Daniel Y said:


> Actually James Watt was neither a sailor nor an Equestrian. He Re Invented the steam engine. He was a mechanical Engineer and most likely had little knowledge of any particular end use of the engine.


I believe you to be in error concerning the knowledge of Mr Watt, and to be "splitting hairs" rather than addressing the points I was attempting to make:
1)one must learn to walk before one attempts to run 
2)not everything one reads on the Internet is practical outside of narrow parameters


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

"Does anybody try to slope a top cover to direct the moisture where it will do no harm?"
I don't slope the cover,I slope the entire hive to be lower in the back on my top entrance hives- this lets moisture laiden air out the front entrance and incidental wind driven rain run down the back wall away from the bees.
On my bottom entrance hives I do the opposite- the hive is tilted UP in the back to let wind driven rain run out the front/bottom entrance.
Some of my bottom entrance hives have inner covers with slotted edges turned to the back,some have no inner cover and use shims in the rear of the telescoping cover.
The unmentioned downside to upper ventilation (and there is ALWAYS a downside to every management maneuver) is its often an unguarded entrance for hive beetles.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Mike, I have been milling such a thing as a sloped ceiling around in my mind. at best it would be only marginally reliable. If the bees at any time started building burr comb on such a ceiling it would be useless. The material would have to be nearly flawless as to irregularities because any bump or rough spot woudl serve as a point for moisture to drip from. I am thinking of a material smooth like glass. and even if that started to get dirty it would become less effective. Or the slope woudl have to be fairly steep. For minimum water drainage a slop of 1/4 inch per foot is required. that is what is code for sewer lines. a roof can be anywhere from that to as much as 12 in 12 or a 45% slope to the roof. That is for run off from the top surface but has to take into consideration things like wind driven water that can be pushed back up the roof. Who knows what an effective slope for the underside of a surface would be. I guess it would be fairly steep though. Even at that as a drop of water begins to run from the highest side to the lowest. it will come into contact with additional moisture. If that drop becomes heavy enough at any time it will drop no matter what. Again unreliable. Sounds good at first but I predict such a design to not function very well.


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

Absolutely correct on every point,Daniel.
Every little bit helps,if only to help ME feel better  so not working very well would appear to be better then doing nothing,and putting a rock under the back of a hive or a twig under a cover fits my budget well.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Mike, Do you reduce your entrances, or leave the full-width top entrance open?

About half of mine are reduced... if I wasn't so pressed for time I would probably reduce them all...


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Now that we got past some of the early clatter this has been a good blog. Thanks for the quality contributions.

Steve


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

One mans "clatter" is another mans discussion 
It's hard to communicate clearly with such a diverse group:
The OP who has his first and only hive and wants it alive in the spring
Beekeepers with several hives who've been at it a few years
Beekeepers with dozens of hives who have been successful for many years
Commercial beekeepers with hundreds of hives an little time to "coddle" them
I hope my attempts to contribute haven't offended anyone or wasted their time


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

minz said:


> Does anybody try to slope a top cover to direct the moisture where it will do no harm?


I've got my whole hive angled slightly forward. The hope for me is that any moisture will run along the IC and down the inner hive wall.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Wood shaving, leaves, or other coarse fibrous material above the top of the hive is hardly a new idea, it's been around since people started using wooden hives instead of straw skeps, most likely because people noticed that the top of the skep stayed warm

Bees generate heat, and if the hive traps that heat, will warm the hive to some extent. Coarse shavings (from a planer or jointer, not from a table saw or hand saw) will allow some air movement and will buffer the moisture content. Too dry is just a bad as too wet, the bees need high humidity in there to raise brood. Coarse leaves, straw, or any other organic material will work fine. Cellulose insulation is probably too fine, it will not allow enough air movement and get soggy, it's not intended for use in moist environments. Fine sawdust will have the same issue.

When it comes to commercial beekeeping, extra work can be a real issue, but for a small scale operation, something that reduces losses can be a really good idea. Probably a good idea for commercial operations too, just too expensive for the reduction in losses.

Peter


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Steve10 said:


> I used boxes a pine shavings similar to the Warre Quilt Box last winter on all my Langstroth hives.


Thanks. What you describe is pretty much what I had in mind, and I'm glad to hear that it helped. I'm almost inclined to go ahead and give it a try.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Any reduction in loss is worth the cost to a commercial beekeeper. So, if I may speak for the commercial beekeepers I know, we don't use absorbant materials we vent.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Venting is the best way to go. As it is in your own house.


I like the analogy, and it makes sense.

It always used to amaze me growing up when in the fall I would see people cover their roof vents with plastic bags.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> we don't use absorbant materials we vent.


Do you find that just shimming the IC is enough?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

IC? What IC? Migratory covers are primarily one piece covers, not inner covers and telescoping covers. Some have insulation board in them, but most don't.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I put a chunk of twig between IC and TC so TC sits up a little.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> IC? What IC? Migratory covers are primarily one piece covers, not inner covers and telescoping covers. Some have insulation board in them, but most don't.


I know what a migratory cover is: I have one, and used it for a month until I finished my TC. I'm just curious as to what you do with it during the winter.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

cg3 said:


> I put a chunk of twig between IC and TC so TC sits up a little.


Thanks.


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## UnbakedPegga (Jun 20, 2012)

I wish there was a picture to show how to do this. I learn so much better that way


Michael B said:


> Like some have pointed out, let the moisture out.
> 
> Wait until the propolis is hard and pry the inner cover. A gap will be created by the stiff propolis not wanting to fit together.
> 
> Angle the outer cover back so the front edge sits on the inner cover. This is what I do with no moisture issues.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

To make a space at the top of the hive for ventilation simply place a small stone or stick under the corners of the cover or inner cover at thge front edges before wrapping for Winter.


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## swamprat (Jan 5, 2009)

im with sqkcrk on this one.vent the top of the hive. i have a notch in my inner covers to vent the moisture out


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## smith (Mar 7, 2009)

Science IS art!!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Splatt said:


> I know what a migratory cover is: I have one, and used it for a month until I finished my TC. I'm just curious as to what you do with it during the winter.


Splatt, my migratory covers are my only covers. Each one is a peice of plywood cut to the size of the top of the hive. Other than when I work my hive it stays on top of the hive. I don't do anything to allow moisture an exit. Moisture has not been a problem in my hives other than the water that some times accumulates in the inside feeder.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Splatt said:


> Has anyone put a layer (1" or so) of fairly coarse sawdust in a screened-bottom vent box at the top of their hive during the winter? It seems to me that it might solve the problem of moisture killing the bees.


Perhaps until the temps warm up enough so that what trapped moisture thaws rains down onto the cluster. The trouble w/ such a layer of sawdust is that it will trap the moisture and it won't keep it or wick it away. You'd be better off w/out any sawdust at all.

If you have moisture problems over Winter vent the top. Staggering the supers 3/8 inch will help too.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Mark, Have you actually had this experience with sawdust or are you just hypothesizing on the results?


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

I have the lumber cut to put together my first insulated hive cover this weekend:
http://www.honeybeesuite.com/the-best-ventilated-gabled-roof/

Also saw this from a local organization:
http://strathconabeekeepers.blogspot.ca/2011/10/moisture-quilt-insulated-hive-cover.html


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

This is an easy one.
Last year I bought some food grade burlap sacks from a Starbucks supplier for $1.00 each. I put a small scoop of shavings in each one and folded it like a pillow. Here are my screened top covers:
(This hive actually has two colonies..3 deep frames over 3 on the left- double stack of mini deep frames on the right) 
This is a recent photo taken October 15th-good fall scenario.










The problem is, if you put shavings or leaves directly on the screen, you will foul the comb below with 'crumbs' and you can not easily remove the insulation material to see the cluster below. WIth the pillow, all you do is lift he cover and lift the pillow to make a quick visual check in winter without losing too much heat.









Insert the pillow in an empty super and you can still use you migratory tops-and still insulate. My screened top covers have a 1/2" x 1" notch for top entrance and ventilation. I never get moisture problems. I am in the Pacific Northwest, near the coast. Known for our wet weather. Even a large cluster like this will not create condensation in the hive with this set up. But you Must have _some_ venting near the top.
Note: the shavings are not for absorption, they are for insulation.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> Mark, Have you actually had this experience with sawdust or are you just hypothesizing on the results?


I'm going to copy this Post of yours and file it away somewhere. It has to be the shortest Post you have ever written.

Just using my imagination. I know how sawdust acts and how bees produce moisture and that there are other ways to rid a hive of moisture. And you?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Moisture and insulation do not go together. A colony produces moisture in the winter and at the same time needs it. What they don't need is condensation overhead that could drip on the cluster. Insulate the roof and let the walls do the condensing. That is pretty much what they have in a hollowed out tree isn't it?
The concept of absorbing moisture into sawdust doesn't make sense to me for more than just one reason.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Whoa gentlemen!

I think we may be having a difference of opinion based on differences in climate. Here, we have rain, more rain, wind and mostly hovering above freezing temperatures from November to April. A break in lovely May, and then a foul June. After that, pure summer but cool by inland standards...but it lasts through October. So winter prep here is largely "anti monsoon" prep. 

I plan to put 4" of white wood bedding (larger curls than fine sawdust, but not chunks either) over the bees in a gabled roof with twin ventilation holes well above the wood shavings. Major roof overhang to prevent rain blowing into the screened vent holes, and to prevent rain driving under the 1" styro insulation and plastic that the hive is wrapped in. 

It is wet, wet, and humid if chilly here. In deeper, dryer cold and snow (we usually only get a couple of skiffs of snow, even our rare deep snows do not last more than a few days) I might do something different.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

I leave home made hive top feeders on my hives. I've heard of others putting fiberglass insulation in there for the winter. Anyone here tried that? Seems like it would work well except bugs may nest in it.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Just using my imagination. I know how sawdust acts and how bees produce moisture and that there are other ways to rid a hive of moisture. And you?


I was just wondering if you have the same requirement of yourself as you seem to have of others. I actually have extensive experience with absorbent materials of all sorts. including sawdust. shredded paper. compressed wood pellets that are used for animal bedding. and other similar materials. Some if which I have specifically monitored and measured their moisture absorbing qualities. In all I disagree with you imaginings and actually find it more in line with your pessimistic and discouraging nature than anything informative.

Without going into detail I will say a 4 inch thick mat of loose sawdust woudl absorb somewhere in the area of 64 lbs of water and not drip. that is about 14 lbs more water than would be in a hive if it contained 100 lbs of 1:1 sugar water. Compressed wood pellets will expand and hold many times that amount of water.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel,
I did not mean to offend your sensibilities. I don't think I REQUIRED anything of anyone. I was simply giving my point of view in a discussion forum. If you know something I don't great, share it. I can read and learn.

I guess I tend to see things w/ my experiences in mind, how I keep bees and where I keep bees. W/ that in mind, I see no need for absorbant materials in the top of bee hives. Most of the people I know who keep bees in The North Country overwinter don't either. Bees in beetrees or houses don't gather sawdust to pack into the tops of their cavities to absorb moisture over winter, so, I simply question the necessity. That's all, question. Do what fits where you live and how you keep bees.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Do you have nay sources of data concerning the survival rate of natural colonies? I often see the choices of natural colonies as a good thing. As if most people think that natural colonies have a high survival rate. I suspect this is a huge error. Here is why.

Assume a feral colony survives for 5 years and swarms only once a year. In a stable eco system. one that the population of bees is neither rising or falling. Only one of those swarms will survive. That is a survival rate of only 20%. A beekeeper having the same survival rate would have to start the season with 100 hives in order to end it with 5. I have seen it mentioned several times that the suspected failure of hives is in the area of 30% and that is considered bad. This also means there is a 70% survival rate. over three times greater than the example I described in feral colonies.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Without going into detail I will say a 4 inch thick mat of loose sawdust woudl absorb somewhere in the area of 64 lbs of water and not drip. that is about 14 lbs more water than would be in a hive if it contained 100 lbs of 1:1 sugar water. Compressed wood pellets will expand and hold many times that amount of water.


The problem is when the saw dust absorbs all that water it no longer is a heat insulator and actually turns into a heat conductor and freezes. The other bad problem that can happen is a growth of bacteria, mold and algae which could be detrimental to the colony in the long run. Of course people do this and I will say they get away with it and call it success. It won't work everywhere. It will only work when the conditions are right. It is better to adopt a process that has the greatest chance of working under the biggest number of variables. Insulate the top with something that is moisture proof and ventilate the hive or skip the insulation in certain areas.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Without going into detail I will say a 4 inch thick mat of loose sawdust woudl absorb somewhere in the area of 64 lbs of water and not drip.


Perhaps you should check your detail some more. A 10 frame hive body has an interior surface area of 271 sq in. Four inches high would be 1084 cu in, which equals .62 cu ft.
(19.875 - 1.5) * (16.25 -1.5) * 4/ (12*12*12) = 0.62 Cubic feet

But 62.4 lbs of water equals 1 cu ft. 
http://www.boatcycle.com/calcs.php

So that 64 lbs of water will take up about 6.5 inches vertically of that hive body, just for the water. And that doesn't count any sawdust.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

To expand on what Daniel said, not only does that sawdust hold amazing amounts of water, but if it's correctly placed and is not compacted (the reason I suggest planer shavings or sawmill sawdust) it will not prevent air movement. This is critical, as the bottom surface could become waterlogged if the sawdust froze into a solid mass, but if there is slow air movement, the sawdust will allow the water to migrate out while minimizing heat loss. 

For extremely cold areas, I don't see any drawbacks to a layer of shredded organic matter or coarse sawdust over the top. Nicely closed up hives without drafts, warm cover, condensation restricted to the outer walls where the bees can get to it if the want it, sounds like heaven to me.

Empty comb under the cluster is important too -- this will greatly reduce the air movement around the cluster, which will reduce the heat loss which will reduce the stores consumption, which will reduce winter losses. Cold way comb is better that warm way comb, but that takes different hives than Langs to do easily.

Peter


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Peter, I have been meaning to put *slatted racks* on the bottom of the hives to do what you describe...create a dead air space below the combs. 

Anyone had any experience with slatted racks (which are supposed to give older bees more room in the hive in the summer and delay swarm impulse as well)??


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Allen Dick winters two or three thousand hives in Alberta Canada. Collecting moisture above the cluster is not part of his system. In place of inner covers, he apparently uses "pillows" of plastic wrapped polyester batting (Kodel®).

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/WrappingJan2010.htm 

There's a lot of info here.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Thankyou for those interesting links, BeeCurious.

Most of Alberta has very different winter weather than I get here on the west coast....think Bismarck, North Dakota vs. Seattle, Washington. 

Alberta is a very sunny, dry deep freeze. Vancouver BC (my area) is a perpetually overcast, sodden, windy, above freezing winterlong fog-fest. Alberta bees will be desperate for moisture as any air coming into the hive will be desert-dry. Coast bees will be doing the backstroke, as all the air coming into the hive is already moisture laden, and in spite of the milder winter temperatures here on the coast, there is no reliable daily solar heat gain. For months!


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Hey, we'll never get any winter tourist here with that kind of talk! Can be cold, however Jan average daily high is -10C/+14F.

Winter air is generally quite dry and as it warms somewhat through the hive, it can take on moisture. We do need some air ventilation to remove moisture and do need insulation above the inner cover so any condensation happens on the side walls prior to either cover. 

Think quilts could be quite dangerous in our climate. As moisture moves up through it, the moisture will condense when it dew temp in quilt and then may freeze if temp at that level is below freezing. As more moisture rises, the quilt may become a block of ice. When temps do warm, moisture could become a wet cluster.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Tee hee, I would trade quite a few of our soggy, grey-wool days at a very favourable rate for some of your sunny, snowy Prairie gems! I never have gotten used to green Christmases, blech. Here on the coast we all get SAD by February. That is why when any sun peeks out we all rush outdoors in shorts and tees. We are that desperate!


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

Newspaper and 5 pounds of sugar absorbs moisture and provides emergency food supply.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

WesternWilson said:


> Most of Alberta has very different winter weather than I get here on the west coast....think Bismarck, North Dakota vs. Seattle, Washington.


And how about Utah, home of the original poster?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think that any packing that goes on top of the frames or inner cover may have at least two functions. The obvious is insulation, and one that gets mentioned but may not be so, is the ability to "soak up moisture". I have seen calculations on the amount of water produced by the metabolism of honey or sugar and I believe it is greater than the weight of the food consumed. Another (what I think important) effect is to provide surface area for frost and ice to evaporate from without dripping. With large enough surface area ice can sublime to vapor without going through the liquid phase. Hoar frost disappears into thin air without dripping. We used to keep an eye out for hibernating bears vent holes. They have some of the same issues as bees. s

For ability to breathe and provide good surface area I plan to use planer shavings up top. They wont fall through a queen excluder or screen like sawdust would. It should have enough flow resistance to control overventilation. Here we commonly get close to 40 below zero though the last 10 years more like 35 for a winter minimum temp.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

BeeCurious said:


> And how about Utah, home of the original poster?


Kaysville is in a semiarid climate at about 4,500 feet, so winters are cold and dry. The wind isn't usually a problem, although last December we did get a storm with hurricane-force winds. The coldest I've seen it was 0, but generally the temperature fluctuates between somewhere below freezing (~25) and above (~40). We generally get several feet of snow, but not all at once.

I am, quite frankly, surprised that my initial question has been the cause of so much spirited and informative debate. It's given me a lot to consider, and I appreciate it! All the beeks I've talked to around here just ventilate a bit. I'm going to take that route this year (about out of time, anyway), and maybe next year I'll give something else a try.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Perhaps you should check your detail some more. A 10 frame hive body has an interior surface area of 271 sq in. Four inches high would be 1084 cu in, which equals .62 cu ft.
> (19.875 - 1.5) * (16.25 -1.5) * 4/ (12*12*12) = 0.62 Cubic feet
> 
> But 62.4 lbs of water equals 1 cu ft.
> ...


well in case it was lost on you. my comment was based upon guessing. Mark established that as fari play for this conversation. not bad for a guess.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't know why you are hiding behind me when you don't seem to hold my opinions in high regard, unless I have misunderstood you and your Posts.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Perhaps you should check your detail some more. A 10 frame hive body has an interior surface area of 271 sq in. Four inches high would be 1084 cu in, which equals .62 cu ft.
> (19.875 - 1.5) * (16.25 -1.5) * 4/ (12*12*12) = 0.62 Cubic feet
> 
> But 62.4 lbs of water equals 1 cu ft.
> ...



Sorry Graham. details are not required in this conversation. Mark established that with his guessing. so I am doing my guessing. Requiring details now is foul play. But I can get them if anyone really cares.

I can offer this from a source on wood pellets and volume issues. similar issues are true about wood shavings just not as extreme.

Within 20 minutes of wetting, the bedding will expand to approximately 3 to 4 times its original depth and it will take on a much softer texture and a whitish color. It will continue to “grow” somewhat over the course of the first week.

The above indicates that wood pellets will expand to as much as 4 or even 5 times their original volume. I have seen 5 times claimed from other sources. I have personally witnessed it also. Wood chips may expand to as much as two to three times their original volume. so although your calculations are correct for dry wood shavings. wet wood shavings could be as much as 1.24 cubic feet. .24 more cubic feet than necessary as I originally guessed.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Perhaps you should check your detail some more. A 10 frame hive body has an interior surface area of 271 sq in. Four inches high would be 1084 cu in, which equals .62 cu ft.
> (19.875 - 1.5) * (16.25 -1.5) * 4/ (12*12*12) = 0.62 Cubic feet
> 
> But 62.4 lbs of water equals 1 cu ft.
> ...


well I did a bit of an experiment. and as is typical guesses are completely unreliable and a waste of time. 
1 cup by volume or .9 ounces of wood shavings (course animal beding shavings) will hold 2.7 ounces or three times their weight in water. but this turns out to be only 1/3rd the volume. so the ridiculous sounding 64 lbs is in fact ridiculous. I am thinking that 4 inch mat will hold more like 20 or so lbs of water. still that is about 2 and a half gallons without dripping.

IT is also true that the water will not just set in that mat permanently bit their will be a constant absorbing and drying of the water through the mat.

As for the specific location. i suspect that Utah has much the same conditions as we have here in Reno. intense cold will not be nearly as much of an issue. With our dry climate I believe minimal ventilation will be more than enough safeguard against condensation. But for those in extremely wet climates such as Oregon or Washington I can see that such mats might be a good choice. If conditions are so extreme they they do in fact drip. they can be removed and replaced.


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## steer53 (Nov 8, 2011)

My first post. I am working with 6 hives and on 2 of them I have made a quilt with wood shavings and upper ventilation. Hedging my bets you could say by only doing 2. Other 4 I will just have upper vents. Good topic.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

steer53 said:


> My first post. I am working with 6 hives and on 2 of them I have made a quilt with wood shavings and upper ventilation. Hedging my bets you could say by only doing 2. Other 4 I will just have upper vents. Good topic.


Welcome! 

I'd be interested to know how it goes. Do you have fairly wet (humid) winters where you are?


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

I wintered 13 hives a few years ago with a super on top of a double deep and just used a queen excluder to keep 3 inches of shavings above the frames worked great, 12 hives made it.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

We are all finished our weekend project, making a gabled roof to put on the hive. There are 4" of white wood shavings in it, separated from the bees by a layer of landscape cloth (vapour can permeate, but wood bits will not fall onto the bees below...not sure if the bees will gnaw the landscape cloth).

I will post on how it works over our soggy winter!


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## steer53 (Nov 8, 2011)

Splatt, in SW Minnesota we *typically* have winters of low humidity, winds frequently causing drifting snow,10+ inch snows, and then bitter cold. Last winter was abnormally warm and only around 20 inches of snow. Good year to winter bees. My first year wintering bees so am learning and trying ideas of mine and others.


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## bbrowncods (Oct 10, 2012)

If bees like their hive at close to warm as they can get it (i have heard 95 in summer) and they have to produce their own heat, then it stands to reason that their home should be like our home - insulated with a vapor barrier and ventilation. Without all three they have to spend more energy keeping warm (consume more honey).

Cellulose would provide a basic vapor barrier and insulator, but not perfect as already discussed, and a vent of some sort would be ideal.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not really bbrowncods. Bees keep themselves warm, they don't heat the interior of the cavity they live in. The colony super organism gathers the single bees into a cluster which keeps the interior of the cluster temperature around 95 degrees and the exterior of the cluster stays at a temperature just warm enough to maintain life of the bees holding onto the cluster.

It's more like what people did when they had little or no heat source in their houses, they slept all in one bed sharing body heat. Like igloo dwellers or tipi dwellers. Exceprt bees do it all Winter long.


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