# Golden Mean Hive window won't stay put.



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Hey there,

Any pics of your hive construction? It might help people offer better suggestions. 

Adam


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

This is what I did on a Lang hive. Forget the silicon. Get some J flashing, (Narrow strips of aluminum sheet metal shaped like the letter J). Cut top and bottom pieces the length of the plexiglass. Screw the flashing into the outside wall of the hive one piece above and one piece below of where the observation hole is. (J side facing outward). Use half inch screws because you don't want to skewer your bees . Slide the plexiglass in the top and bottom channels of the J flashing covering the observation hole. 

Make sure you allow enough "play" for expansion and contraction when you screw in the J flashing. Remember, your bees generate heat in the hive so there is expansion inside and contraction on the outside. When you do your hive inspection, you simply slide out the plexiglass to clean. 

Good luck


----------



## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

7B I hope you have an empty GM hive to transfer your loaded bars into while your working on this one. I don't know what kind of silicone your using. On my GM hive I made to the specs, I have real glass in it. The ones I doubled the length, I am useing plexiglass. My plexiglass is suprisingly thinner than the real glass. I suppose that should be ok, but it left lots of extra room in the channel. More room for silicone. On both of them I used "Premium Waterproof Silicone Made by G.E. bar code# 7702705000" omiting the two far end small bar code digits. Got mine at Home Depot. So far, it has done well and suppose to last for years. I do think after trimming your plexiglass as your doing and re-installing it you should be OK. There again, I'm not sure I'd be able to fix it without a spare hive as it needs to have the slicone applied from the inside. If not, you might go with charlies idea. in any case good luck.


----------



## affreux (Apr 10, 2011)

A: Get some Glazing points to hold the glass in prior to glazing with silicone
B: Do not use pine(to much rosin) for silicone will not stick to it very well, use an exterior grade sealer.
C: Make sure cover is not pushing glass out when closed.


----------



## sevenbravo (Sep 30, 2010)

Thanks for the tips. I have been using a premium waterproof silicone as well. I am using plexiglass and the hive is made of pine. The silicone sticks well to the wood but isn't sticking to the plexiglass. I do have a spare hive and have transfered the bees to a new hive. I can retrim the glass to a smaller size and re attach. I thought about trimming the glass a bit then install the glass with a gap around the entire glass, placing a few beads of silicone to hold it in place, then let the bees fill the gap with propolis. That is what they attempted to do with the existing hive, but the gap was too tight to allow much filling. Would that work?

I'll take some photos to help you all understand. Thanks!!!!


----------



## affreux (Apr 10, 2011)

Silicone will adhere to plexiglass but sometimes you have to use steelwool to rough up the very edge and clean with alcohol. The rosin in the pine will eventully allow the silicone to let go of unpainted pine. Glazing point at the best things to hold the glass in even if you use a glazing compound. I have never seen a crack to small for a bee to propolize. I used to make aquariums out of plexiglass and silicone so I know it will adhere unless it has an oily film on it, but sometimes you do have to rough the edge. This may sound crazy but make sure you have Plexiglass an not some other poly substance.


----------



## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

Got me a little worried now. I didn't rough mine up with anything. I thought mine was sticking fine to my plexiglass, but from what you all are saying got me thinking it might could fail anytime soon or later down the road. I wasn't planning to put those hives with plexiglass adhered with silicone in operation till next spring anyway. What would you all suggest I do since the windows are already in place and seem fine so far? I think I might remove some silicone just in a few 1" spots around the window on all sides with a razor blade or something. I will then apply some other kind of epoxy in those 1" spots.


----------



## sevenbravo (Sep 30, 2010)

Some photos for reference.


----------



## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

OK 7B. Here is what I suggest. I don't know if it is the best Idea but what I would do if it were me is clean the plexiglass well. Then clean and dry the channel in the wood where the glass goes in place well. There is some kind of two part epoxy I used on my first hive but with real glass that is working well and it is in operation. I think it will work as well with plexiglass. I will get back with you in a day or so when I find out exatly what it was because I don't remember. i know I'll find it when I go back to HD again. All I remember is it came in the form of a double sirrenge and you had to mix the two together and it holds very well. It sets up quick so you must mix it quick and apply it quickly. I only put it in 1" spots about every 1 foot all the way around the window. I think I may get some myself again for my above mentioned reason. Oh yes and I strongly suggust you trim your plexiglass a little bit first so it will fit in the channel, if you haven't already. Later.


----------



## sevenbravo (Sep 30, 2010)

Do you think the epoxy's lack of flexibility will cause the window to bow? I built one for another person and hers gaps open when it is hot, but stays closed when it is cold so there appears to be a lot of movement. I told her that was part of the automatic heating and cooling system I designed.


----------



## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

Thats kind of an interesting question I have not at all thought of. Does hers have anything else such as some kind of flexable sealant around the glass in addition to the epoxy holding the glass in place, or just the epoxy only? If not, do you suppose a flexable sealant would resolved that issue or are the gaps so big there would still be open gaps there? And is the epoxy solid all the way around or just in spots like I plan to use it? I kind of think to put epoxy solid all the way around would be very expensive and not necessary. My last one might be a silly question because if epoxy were solid all the way around there wouldn't be any open gaps but just greatly bowed plexiglass. If the wood swells and contracts that much, it seems like it might break the glass if it were real glass like I have in one of my hives but hasn't cracked yet at least anyway.
I guess you got me there 7b Im not sure how to answere that. Someone else might. I think I might still use it anyway as I haven't had any such problem yet at least.


----------



## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

It is the plastic that is expanding/contracting with temperature, not the wood. Yes, wood swells/shrinks with humidity, but that is seasonal, not a day-to-day thing. The coefficient of expansion for plastic due to temperature changes is quite large. If your window is, say 2 feet long, it could expand 1/16" to 1/8" daily in response to cool night temps to hot day temps. You have to allow for and work with that fact -- you can't prevent or eliminate it.

First, cut a rabbet (rebate, for the UK folks) wide enough to allow for plenty of movement by the wood and plastic. If the rabbet is too small the plastic will either pop the fasteners/sealant or will bow/distort ... or both. I personally would allow a generous 1/8" gap all around if I was building a hive in winter. Maybe a generous 1/16" gap all around if building on a hot summer day. 

Choose fasteners that will allow for movement. My preference would be for mechanical fasteners, not a caulk/sealant/glue. Charlie's "J" flashing or Affreux' glaziers points are good choices. Large headed screws are another. If your fastener of choice is a sealant of some sort, keep in mind that epoxy is acceptable for glass, but is a bad choice for plastic because it is pretty much rigid, not flexible. Silicone is flexible, so is a better option, but don't use it like a caulk (per the pictures).

Put the silicone IN the rabbet and lay the window on the silicone. Use a fairly thin film of sealant, so you don't fill the gap between the plastic and rabbet edge -- the gap has to say open for expansion. Let the silicone CURE WELL before use with bees. Aquarium silicone might be safer than regular stuff.

As far as the silicone not sealing to the plastic, the amount of surface area being "glued" is critical -- that's why "caulking" the window in place won't work as well as "gluing" the window in. Cleanliness is also important. If there are traces of oil or dust, the silicone won't adhere -- use a suitable solvent to remove contamination. Roughing up the silicone never hurts either, as has already been suggested.


----------



## sevenbravo (Sep 30, 2010)

Thanks for the help and tips. My gap around the plexiglass not wide enough for sure. I am going to trim it then re apply. When I attached it the first time I did "glue" it in...it was only when I saw the silicone lose grip that I added a "caulking" bead as well. Either way, I will just redo it with a bigger gap, a super clean joint and a roughened edge and see how it goes. 

I am having a hard time visualizing the J flashing. I considered simply adding screws with washer like heads on the inside of the hive but I was concerned with that causing problems when unattaching the comb from the side of the hive.


----------



## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

"...screws with washer like heads..."

Actually that is how the windows in my hives are fixed in place. It works fine for me -- I have not had problems with the screw heads interfering with my being able to remove bars. They are fairly flat. But YMMV.


----------



## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

I used small metal stud screws in my plexiglass but you want to make sure and pre-drill your holes or you will crack the plexiglass.


----------



## Buz Green (Jun 29, 2009)

I use 18ga. x 3/4" nails in addition to clear Phenoseal caulking to hold my plexiglass in place. The caulking is used only to seal the opening as I have also had issues with the plexi coming loose if I don't use nails. I used to drill holes in the plexi but as has been stated the plexi sometimes cracks. Now I just push the nails in right around the edge of the plexi and let the heads hold the plexi in place until the caulk dries and then be an additional support after it sets.
I've never had a pane come loose doing it this way.


----------



## affreux (Apr 10, 2011)

I use glass and don't have any problems. Plesiglass scratches way to easy when you cut the cone away to lift bar.


----------



## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

:s I now wish I would have used glass on those two hives. Like I mentioned earlier, not planning to put them in operation till next Spring. One of them is not assembled yet, but the plexiglass is installed in both of them. I think I will take the assembled one and the side with the plexiglass of the unassembled one and leave them outside in the hot sun and cool nights for a 2 or 3 days. If the plexiglass pops out, I know it won't work. If they don't pop out, I'll still wonder. Those plexiglass windows are 44 1/2 inches long. They drop in just perfect into the channels or rabitts otherwise called, but with vertually no excess room for expansion, but had no idea it was needed. It has about 1/4" for contraction. I installed them by first applying the silicone all the way around the channel then placing the plexiglass on top of it and it seemed to do fine. However they have only been downstairs in the garage all this time.
I might even just remove and do aside with the plexiglass and go get glass cut and install it instead. I just origionally thought the length of the windows might be too excessive for real glass by increasing the possability of breakage. That's what the glass man where I purchased the plexiglass and had it cut said. I even took my hive sides with the window holes in there for him to measure and fit it too. He mentioned nothing at all about the plexiglass expanding and contracting. I would think he should know and mention something about that.


----------



## dehavik (Jun 5, 2010)

The viewing windows for my two top bar hives are made of plexiglass, screwed into the inside of the hive at all four corners, then sililconed around the seam. The TBH at my house is fine, but the window of the TBH I placed at a friend's house has buckled and warped, pulling away from the silicone seal and creating two large gaps. I opened the viewing window today, and bees began pouring out of the buckled gaps. The screws are holding, and when the wooden viewing door is closed, there's no gaps, but the bees are not contained as I like, and no one can view them without escapees. 

I wonder if I should transfer all the bees to another box (which I'll need to build) while I fix the problem, or just ignore it and place them in the shade next year. I like the idea of rails along the top and bottom which will allow the plexi to expand, but I don't relish trying to fix this very strong colony's house. I have a feeling they won't like the displacement or intrusion.


----------



## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

"...He mentioned nothing at all about the plexiglass expanding and contracting. I would think he should know and mention something about that...."

Well, yes, you do have a point, and I would be disappointed too, but look at it from his perspective. He cuts glass and such for a living. He most likely didn't really understand what you had in mind for your project. As you mentioned before, the plastic windows in your hives has been working great in the basement. As with bees (and life in general), some things work sometimes, but don't always work all of the time.


----------



## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

DeeAnna I did actually tell him what they were for when I was there. I guess he just didn't think. Anyhow, I am putting them to the test right now as we speak. I have the assembled hive with plexiglass and the side to the other hive with plexiglass outside in the sun, and it us suppose to be typically hot here, like in the low 90s I think. After being out there for 3 days IF the plexiglass is still down and seald and not bowed or buckled. would you think it would be OK to figure it's safe to just leave them as they are and go with it?


----------



## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

My crystal ball has never worked too good, and I haven't found anyone else's works well either.  If your experiment goes well, I would probably put the hives into service. If at some point later on you have a failure, then deal with it then. It is all to some degree a learning experience.


----------



## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

Yes today they were out in the sun all day and it was 92 degrese. I work just 7 min drive from my house. I came home on lunch break and checked them and it was about 3:30 pm in the heat of the day. There were absolutly no adverse effects at all with them. No buckling or bowing or rippeling or popping out of the rabbit channel. I think they are going to be fine. Would you suppose plexiglass has recently improved ?


----------



## Sletchgoober (Feb 9, 2011)

Lowe's or Home Depot will cut window glass to your exact specifications. It's inexpensive too. I use glass and have no problems.


----------

