# They are all dead...



## Vandieman (May 27, 2015)

It crept over 50 degrees today so I decided to do a long overdue sweep out of the screened bottom board to clear the entrance in preparation for spring. 

But all my bees appear to be dead. 

This is my first winter, and I started with 4 hives, two of whom went into the winter somewhat weak, and two which went in seeming pretty strong. 

Weak hives were just barely occupying two deep hives, had some stores but not many, so I made them solid sugar patties which they seem to have eaten about half of. They had a reduced entrance, but an open screened bottom board, slatted racks, and warre style quilt boxes to deal with moisture and ventilation. The stronger colonies were set up the same, albeit with three deep boxes, all fairly full at the start of winter. I did not give them sugar, but left their honey stores for them. 

All four colonies appear to be dead. The screened boards were choked with dead molding bees, and while all four hives appeared to have a cluster, all 4 clusters appear to be comprised solely of dead bees, still clinging where they died I assume. 

Some of the hives had water sitting on the frame bars, though I thought the combination of ventilation from the SBBs, and the warre quilts should have taken care of moisture. 

I'm very discouraged, not only because 4 nucs worth of bees was kind of an expensive start to a hobby, but also because I don't know really what I did wrong, and now they're all dead.

I would love to hear thoughts and ideas on what I did wrong, and what I can do differently.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

Did you monitor the mite levels in the hives.?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hi Vandieman, you give few clues, such as for example you make no mention if the stronger hives had any honey. So it is impossible to diagnose possible starvation in those hives.

However there's a couple of things noticeable by reading between the lines. You got these hives as 4 nucs quite some time ago, they should have had time to build up to good strength plus store a good quantity of honey. But at least 2 of them didn't, indicating something has been holding them back.

You asked a question a few months ago after finding a problem with your brood, you were advised to use Apivar but you make no mention of ever doing that. Here is an excerpt from your earlier post, including two photos you took.




Vandieman said:


> View attachment 18923
> 
> A close up of a frame with brood, and a number of trapped mummies. All frames showed around this many trapped mummies.
> 
> ...


The diseased larvae in your pics are not chalk brood, which looks quit different. To me it looks fairly typical of damage caused by varroa mites. These pics are from several months ago, and the level of infestation shown would have had time between then and now to build enough varroa numbers to kill the hive in winter. You never mentioned doing anything to control mites, so death by mites, based on the information I can glean, is my best guess.

If you give beekeeping another shot next season you can re use the combs you'll just need new bees. But do treat for mites, and I'm fairly certain you will get a much better outcome.


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## Vandieman (May 27, 2015)

Definitely not trying to keep clues to a minimum. Apologies for that. 

I did not treat for mites in the struggling hive mentioned in my previous posts. Call it foolishness, personal choice, or what have you, but I want to raise bees without chemical assistance.

Regarding food stores, the two stronger hives in particular have noticeably large stores still left in them, they definitely did not starve. The smaller hives appear to have some few stores left, and about half the candy patties I made for them, which makes me think they probably didn't starve either. The presence of standing water in the hive really makes me think moisture did them in, but I'm not sure what I did to foster an environment of wetness...

If it was mites, is there any sign that would make that obvious within the deceased hive?


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

I would see if you can get a hold of Lauri. I think she lives in your area. Maybe she could give some advice to you??


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

All the sign that is needed is listed above. Before purchasing bees this year I would decide on how your are going to manage varroa in your hives. Ignoring varroa mites will result in the same outcome.


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## Vandieman (May 27, 2015)

MTN-Bees said:


> All the sign that is needed is listed above. Before purchasing bees this year I would decide on how your are going to manage varroa in your hives. Ignoring varroa mites will result in the same outcome.


You'll pardon me if I find your prescience questionable... I am going to need a bit more in the way of reasoning than "you didn't test for or treat for mites, so it is mites" to buy that logic leap.


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## Vandieman (May 27, 2015)

Dan P said:


> I would see if you can get a hold of Lauri. I think she lives in your area. Maybe she could give some advice to you??


She lives close enough by me that when I bought the Nucs from her, I had to shut them in to keep them from flying home to her house. 

Incidentally, she helped me ID the problem in one of my hives as chalkbrood, and the other as a failing queen. Mites were not our suspected culprits.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

I am not thinking I know any thing, but where was the cluster in relation to the food?
I am told that if you have mites, you also see something called "mite fras", which I personally don't know what it looks like. I think it is mite droppings.
Can you inspect the dead bees for Deformed Wings? I am told mites are carriers of Deformed Wing virus.
I can understand your desire to raise bees chemically free. I lost a hive to mites, & it was a shock. But, it was one out of 8, not 4 out of 4.
Try again with better stock? Good Luck. CE


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## Mbalboa (Apr 21, 2014)

Apparently mites leave behind a white crystalline deposit in cells. I believe it's called guanine. I have never seen this myself but people have mentioned it a lot on Beesource. So you may consider searching for threads related to that substance, and looking for it in your hives.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes mite frass will be another thing to look for. But it is not always present because the bees will clean the cells especially if the hives had little or no brood in during winter the cells will be polished. But it's worth a look.

Lauri may well have identified chalk brood, and queen problems in your hives. However all I was able to comment on was the pics you have posted, which show mite damage. Don't know what might have been in other parts of the hives other than a queen cell in one of the other pics but with no other relevant info about the rest of that hive I couldn't say the reason for the cell so didn't comment on it.

Now that you have identified that the hives had adequate food stores, ruling out starvation alone, it adds even more to the likelihood that mites were involved in the demise. As you obviously speak with Lauri plus live close, it would be well worth taking some advice from her on it.

It is commendable that you want to keep bees without chemicals. But realise, we ALL want to keep bees without chemicals. Unfortunately, if a hive is being killed by mites and their associated viruses, merely wanting to be chemical free is not going to make the hive survive. Some choose to let those hives die, others choose to use chemicals and save them, personal choice. But losing 100% of your hives is being too hard on yourself, I think you should discuss with some people you trust how to deal with these issues next year.


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> .... But realise, we ALL want to keep bees without chemicals. Unfortunately, if a hive is being killed by mites and their associated viruses, merely wanting to be chemical free is not going to make the hive survive. Some choose to let those hives die, others choose to use chemicals and save them, personal choice. But losing 100% of your hives is being too hard on yourself, .


I just thought that was worth repeating.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

Prescience? You asked what you thought you did wrong and what you could do better. My answer was not meant to be mean. My suggestion was Manage Varroa. Managing Varroa is basic beekeeping and something that needs to be done often. Especially at the end of the summer and early fall. If you didn't do it- you need to. Everything I see above, including the photos from your previous post would lead me to believe it was Varroa. Spend some time researching varroa and figure out how you are going to manage the pest. You will likely see it in every colony you purchase and it just doesn't go away. Good luck in you're beekeeping endeavors!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I have never seen OT so gentle and sensitive to a
situation like this. His wordings really pointed out the
culprit to this demise. I too agreed with him on this issue.
If Lauri has to deal with the mites also then you should do the same.
If it is possible to raise bees 100% free of chemicals then Lauri will do
that a long time ago. There are some strategies we use to deal with
the mites. When the bees don't know how to deal with the mites in order
to survive then this situation will happen again and again year after year.
Yes, it is discouraging I know. There are beekeepers here having the same
situation like you. Trying to find the bees but they are no longer in the hives.
When you find the method to deal with the mites while allowing your bees to live
then your success will be that of Lauri's. I think it is a good time to chat with her for
this situation. I found out the hard way after 3 years dealing with the mites that crashed my hives. 
After 3 years of no bee growth many newbies quit already. Finally this year I have more bees
that overwintered. Still I have to deal with the mites on every hatch cycle. Later on I will put in the
mite resistant queens to expand my goal of a no treatment bee operation.


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## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

What percenatage of hive loss are you comfortable with annually? You seem frustrated with hive deaths, but are not wanting to treat for the biggest killer. Are you okay with 50% - 100% loss every winter for a while?

I am not trying to tell you to treat...more trying to understand if you are willing to accept the consequences of going treatment free?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Did you leave the screened bottom boards open as well??? Dead hives typically occur with the mindset you went into this endeavor... You don't want to use chemicals and want to be treatment free but didn't manage the bees at all to monitor or reduce mite loads, which typically ends in the exact manner your 4 hives are right now. I applaud those who have been able to jump right in and succeed at being treatment free, but it doesn't happen to everyone and sometimes it's best to take a more open minded and pragmatic approach until you've learned something about keeping bees which doesn't happen overnight.


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## Vandieman (May 27, 2015)

JRG13 said:


> Did you leave the screened bottom boards open as well???


I did. I was mirroring something I saw (which made sense to me) on a blog of a relatively nearby beekeeper, with the mindset that cold air in the hive was not the danger, but rather moisture and/or lack of ventilation. So I left the screens open for ventilation, and used warre quilts for moisture control. 

Yet there is standing water on the bars in my hives, so obviously I'm missing something there. :/


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Some of the posts in this thread seem a little "anti-treatment free".
Some probably think "it can not be done".
I must respectfully point out that I came to own a strain of bees 3 years ago, that I eventually moved to an out yard so they could "rob each other out & die". I have only marginally managed them, and have not treated them. 

These un cooperative bees have not died yet.

Perhaps there is some value in that "bad bee" yard that I should not discard. They have _plenty_ of undesirable traits, & I don't want them back in my "home" yard, but they are still doing fine ... treatment free.
I take this as a testament to "Pure Dumb Luck".
I have not met Lauri, but from her posts, I have great respect for her, as a newbie such as myself should have for any one who is doing anything successfully.
But, if you want to keep "treatment free", or "Chemical free" bees, go the extra mile to find a source that is treatment free. ( Lauri may be "treatment free", but I got the flavor from other posters in this thread, that she treats)
Or re-queen with queens from "treatment /chemical free" apiaries.

As for myself, I am going to try to absorb as much knowledge from the "Treatment Free" forum , & the "Queens & Breeding" forum as possible to try to make the most of what I have, before my "PDL" runs out. Good Luck with your bees .... CE


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Herein the rub. For you Tech.35058 running your hives treatment free has worked, or at least, you still have some alive bees. For Vandieman it did not work, he considers 100% loss first season to be a problem, or at least not the result he wanted. So solutions have been suggested but whether to take them is entirely over to Vandieman, as he said it is personal choice. Probably looks pretty anti treatment free, but it's really, done treatment free, didn't work.
BTW Laurie makes no secret that she treats her bees if needed. Therefore anyone purchasing these bees may need to treat them.



Vandieman said:


> Yet there is standing water on the bars in my hives, so obviously I'm missing something there. :/


Could just be that hives in these conditions with a dead cluster and honey in the comb will have moisture.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

O.T. , I think we are in agreement.
As to the water, I have no idea.
CE


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Vandieman said:


> You'll pardon me if I find your prescience questionable... I am going to need a bit more in the way of reasoning than "you didn't test for or treat for mites, so it is mites" to buy that logic leap.


Funny :lpf: It's not a leap to guess mites if you did nothing to control mites and everything else looks ok. Plus it is a guess from a distance, over the internet. Seem legit to me that anyone would "suspect" mites as the cause. After all can you prove it was not mites?

Not trying to beat you up here, I just thought your reponse was a little......well.....not well thought out.


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## Vandieman (May 27, 2015)

My apologies to MTN for being harsh in my reply. That was uncalled for.

As to the reasoning, guesses are I guess one thing, I felt like people were stating mites to be the definite answer, without pointing to anything that might help me find out the answer for certain, instead of just long distance guesses.. Reading these forums, there has seemed to be a lot of "when in doubt, mites did it" which seems less than helpful to me as a newbee. There are thousands of things I can and probably did do wrong, and mites could be one of them, or not, but I'll not know if "there's doubt, so mites did it" is the answer... 

I was hoping for constructive advice that would help me find out what was wrong, so I can decide whether to throw the money I spent on beekeeping away, or spend more.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

As Sqck used to have for a signature line, "If you are looking for truth in a matter, be neither for or against it".

If you are looking for confirmation instead, that is a different matter.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

The problem with the internet is this. Yes we're right there with you, yes we feel your frustration, yes we want to help, but we're hobbled by not being there physically. 
Beekeeping is not rocket science but it takes a lot of intuition to know where your hive is going and is it going to be hitting a rough patch in the road a month down the road. This is something you have to develop and getting it right in a year is like hitting the lottery on your first ticket. Going for your second year is something that you'll have to decide.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Vandieman said:


> I was hoping for constructive advice that would help me find out what was wrong, so I can decide whether to throw the money I spent on beekeeping away, or spend more.


No one can tell you if you should spend more money. You object to a flat out answer of mites so I will try and state it differently. With about 95% probability most or all of your hive deaths trace back to a high mite population and associated viruses. There are perhaps several tens of reasons that cover the other 5% including the well documented disappearing disease that has periodically plagued beekeepers for the last 150 plus years. I doubt if any of the other posters who suggest mites would object to the way I stated it. We all know there are other things besides mites that kill hives occasionally. I would suggest that if you refuse to do alcohol washes once in a while to accurately document your mite levels and refuse to deal with high levels when they happen you likely should not spend more money as you are probably going to be unhappy with your results. Getting survivor bees and moving them to a new person who does not monitor mite levels nor treat somehow when levels are high generally results in those survivors dying from mites.


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

So other than the mite responses. I would ask does the quilt box have a to tight of weave to not let air or moisture flow through? Maybe the chips or whatever you have in there are too thick or compacted. Maybe the lid seals to tight (thats how I lost one of mine) or a combination with the bottom screen also being open. Moisture then cold air, bad combination. I understand your frustration.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I am TF and and I lost all 8 colonies my first yr so I know your pain, but I will jump on the bandwagon and say it was probably mites, if the people you got your bees from have to treat, it's a good chance you will to. However with that being said...one other thing you didn't mention which may be a contributing factor, is you didn't mention any insulation at least on top. If your hive condensates on top instead of the side walls it could have gotten wet enough that your quilt box did no good and moisture still dripped on the bees? How wet was your quilt box? Also, of these stores you mentioned, did you feed so late they didn't get a chance to dry it down and cap it? just some more food for thought. If lauri is that close and you get bees from her, keep them like her and you will be just as successful.


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## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

Vandieman said:


> I was hoping for constructive advice that would help me find out what was wrong, so I can decide whether to throw the money I spent on beekeeping away, or spend more.


As I stated before, you have to tell people what kind of losses you are comfortable with before people can give you any advice. If you are dead set on TF, then you will have higher losses in the beginning than others. If you say that losing over 50% next year (assuming the same approach) is unacceptable, then I would think many people would say that you shouldn't dive back in.

I got in to this with the idea that dead bee's do nobody any good and I was going to do whatever it took to get them through their first year... feeding, treatment, providing them with warm blankets and a flat screen T.V., etc. With that my expectations are very high and if I lose 1 hive this winter I will be disappointed. On the other end of things, I have a friend who got me in to this who has never had a hive make it past January 1st. He loses them to mites every time. However when I question his tactics he simply states that he wants to keep them completely naturally and will not do anything (treatment, QE, Drone frame freezing, oil pans) that nature doesn't provide. He has no right to be disappointed given the amount of information available to him on hive loss without treatment.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Vandi

You sourced the bees from member Laurie who has VSH stock and overwinters her nucs. So I completely understand your frustration with the mite answer and the fact that these very expensive nucs are all dead.

My advice is to seek your answer from science instead of opinion on this forum.

Send samples to the bee lab. It isn't going to cost anything except postage and if you had a mite problem you will have a definitive answer. 

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=7472


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

...at least post some good pics of the brood comb..


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

Mites


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

bluegrass said:


> Vandi
> 
> You sourced the bees from member Laurie who has VSH stock and overwinters her nucs. So I completely understand your frustration with the mite answer
> [/url]



and yet she is very open and honest about her need to treat, sure she has been able to keep some colonies off treatments for extended amounts of time, but she has a very intimate knowledge of what her bees need and when. The best advice I was ever given was obtain bees locally from someone who is successful and keep them EXACTLY like they do. Once you have that figured out..... then experiment if you want.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I always laugh when people claim that cold air doesn't kill bees.... Perhaps it doesn't, but a bunch of cold air sure doesn't help them stay warm either. I think the main reason people attack the TF philosophy is not because of the approach itself, but more because newbies get enamored with the approach and think they can jump in with no knowledge of bees, beekeeping, genetics, livestock etc... and they're going to have honey flowing out their ears and hives so strong they'll be ready to swarm 13 months out of the year because they're so healthy but the plain truth about the matter is, it's not that easy for most and you really need to put the time in to properly learn beekeeping and managing your bees to be successful at it and don't be swayed by the hardliners that TF is the only way to help the honey bee until you have the knowledge to really tackle the issue successfully. Anyone who wants to discuss, jump in the chat room in the evening or send me a pm, I'll be the first to admit I lose hives every year because I'm not sticking to my plan of building up first, then when I'm at the proper stage and have the proper resources, start evaluating for resistant bees.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

well said JRG13.
clyde


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## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

JRG makes a good point. 
When I started I was hell-bound to go TF. Lost several hives because I was simply in over my head. Now my goal is to maintain strict best practices using soft treatments (OA, MAQs, Bt, etc.) coupled with diligent management techniques. 
It's amazingly easy to build "mite bombs" depending on your locale and neighboring colonies. Laurie is an excellent resource (have some of her stock coming this spring), but we can't control all vectors and must manage our livestock to reduce as much risk to them & ourselves as possible. All part of responsible animal husbandry/matriarchy.


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

Vandiman, I've been in the same boat before. This is why it bothers me to see beekeepers promoting "no treatment" to new beekeepers. Almost all new beekeepers who decide they are not going to treat their hives, not going to monitor the mite levels (and other health issues), and take corrective action whether it be treating them with a chemical, management method, or combination of both, will end up without any bees at some point in time. And using whatever choice of corrective action you decide upon will have it's drawbacks along with the benefits. And, if a beekeeper, like I did for quite a while, chooses to just let nature take its course then that beekeeper is allowing their hive to affect others around them who are trying to keep varroa and other diseases out of their hives. It's kind of like the CDC making the decision to allow individuals and livestock affected with diseases the could be catastrophic to the United States to come and go as they please and just let nature take it's course. 

My recommendation is for you, starting right now, to read and learn in every way you can about bees and how to take care of them, figure out what you did wrong so far, buy some more bees, and put together a plan for maintaining a sustainable apiary that achieves the goals you set for that apiary. You have drawn comb, equipment, and some experience now. That has value and you can add to that and move forward if you want to. But if you don't take the time to learn, plan, organize, and implement your plan (adapting as needed) then you're better off not spending any more money on bees and selling your beekeeping equipment as soon as possible before the moths eat the comb, you lose some of your equipment, and/or it deteriorates to the point it looses it's value.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Vandieman said:


> You'll pardon me if I find your prescience questionable... I am going to need a bit more in the way of reasoning than "you didn't test for or treat for mites, so it is mites" to buy that logic leap.


The brood image that OT links above shows a substantial amount of "bald brood". Bald brood is caused when nurse bees open the cappings to remove mites. This indicates the bees have both mites and hygienic behavior traits. Cite http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?313169-More-Newb-Questions&p=1280709#post1280709

Marla Spivak will be the first to state that hygienic bees help control, but **does not cure** a mite explosion.

Your images establish that your hives were suffering from mites in June 2015 when you posted the images. Mites that are serious in June, become deadly in October.

You have provided evidence in your posting of early season images "that is was mites". Your hostility to the folks that have tried to help to see the evidence that can be deduced from your own photographs is misplaced.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Nearly EVERY new beekeeper (which I am as well) that I have talked to in the past couple years has been either oblivious to the fact that varroa exists or they know about it and believe that they (varroa) aren't really a problem. Even some more 'experienced' beekeepers who had been losing 80-100% of their bees for YEARS still never made the connection... It just blows my mind. That's not to say that I wasn't a little bit rosy going into it... I certainly was. But after reading tons and tons of stuff on here and elsewhere, I became convinced that the right way to approach it is to figure out bees first (with known, time-tested methods) and then leave the crazy experimentation alone until you get the basics.

You don't go drive a Formula 1 race car on the first day you get your permit.

The interesting side of it (to me) is that there is a WEALTH of information out there for anyone who is willing to do the digging. It's tough to properly vet that information as a new beekeeper, but it's not impossible. Just like being on here long enough you start to see who the pretenders are and who the actual beekeepers are... and in turn, who to ignore and who to listen to...

Considering the OPer, I'm guessing with four nucs ($800) and four hives (Another $600-800 if purchased as a kit) plus suit etc... is looking at somewhere around $2,000 invested (give or take) and has not a single live bee to show for it less than a year later. I used to keep quite a few freshwater aquariums when I was younger. I think I had about 10 of various sizes at one point. I couldn't tell you how much I had invested in the setups and the fish, but what I can tell you is that, like beekeeping, most of the information is out there for you. Want to breed them? There's a site about that. Want to know how to peacefully stock your aquarium with compatible fish? Easy... google it. What are these white spots on my fish? How come my Oscar fish has a white hole forming between his eyes? Why do all my fish have bent and crooked spines? For the most part we all started somewhere low on the totem pole of bee knowledge, but we are only as low as we allow ourselves to stay. That isn't to say that you can give a guy google and two thousand bee colonies and it will all turn out OK. But if you give a guy google and four bee colonies, barring something catastrophic, there should at least be bees left to fly the following March. Just don't allow yourself to be bad at it... I know that sounds stupid, but refuse to be bad at keeping bees. There are hundreds/thousands of successful beekeepers on this very site... from those with no hives to thousands of hives. Some make their living at it, some make the bees pay for themselves, and some loose their butts year after year. You get to pick where you fall in that spectrum. *Healthy bees, with low mite load, and plenty of food are pretty hard not to keep alive during the winter.* 

Would you go out and buy a $2,000 yellow lab and expect it to become a world class (or even serviceable) hunting dog with no research into the subject? I'm sure if you look around out there you can find someone who went and snagged a rescue dog and it was "the best hunting dog I ever had". Does that mean it's that easy? Absolutely not. And would you ignore the dog if it started to lose patches of fur? Or if it had worms in it's feces? If it had an oozing and infected wound on it's paw? Would you not vaccinate that investment against parvo, rabies, bordetella, distemper, etc? Just in case the neighbor down the street hasn't done the same for their puppy that comes down and plays rough with your $2,000 lab?

Now I know that bees are "just insects" and dogs are, well, dogs. But the death of somewhere near 100,000 individuals in your backyard has obviously upset you enough to come here and post about it. I'd hate to open one of my hives after winter and find it dead. Luckily, I haven't had to do that yet. But I also have made sure that worms, rabies, heartworm, and parvo don't kill my dog. Try not to let some ill-placed ideology force you into not being good at something. You gave being treatment free a fair shake, and that's commendable. Doing the same thing next year is likely to result in another nice couple of bumps and fiscal bruises. You need to ask yourself if you are willing to do that all over again. If you want to spend $500-800 on bees and throw them away like broken lawn chairs every winter that's your business and it really doesn't affect anyone except those bees that are living in your immediate area. If you want to give it another swing I'd suggest buying a few less bees (2-3 colonies worth) and investing the rest of the dollars in known, functional mite control products. Lauri could probably share with you exactly what she does. I know it involves cutting drone brood, shook swarms, etc. So that's some more advanced techniques that you may or may not be comfortable with. But she also has a mite control product that she uses as sort of a "flash treatment" if I recall correctly. I don't speak for her, but I'm certain that if you search her Facebook page or her posts on here you will be able to find the answers you seek. If you choose to seek them.

Sorry for the rambling.


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

Same story here. Actually thought I could buy bees, put them in my box, and all would be well. I thought I could learn treatment free, and it would only result in lower honey yields.

Due to low local populations, I'd guess, I wintered my first 2 colonies and a swarm successfully. That next spring, one colony had mites so bad that while scraping bur comb I found drone brood cells containing 4-6 mites each. My guess looking back is that I'd've lost all 3 hives before mid summer. 

I realized how bad that was, ordered some MAQS and treated all 3 hives. Realizing that if I want to go treatment free, I first need experience to understand how to prevent situations like that. 

*I needed to learn how to keep bees alive first*. Then learn to keep bees like I want to. I got lucky my first year, I won't need to depend on luck again, treatment free or not. Recognize the threat, even successful TF bee keepers manage mites, IMO.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

Unfortunately the certain part has passed. I'm not sure you will find anything in what's left of the hives that will prove it was mites. That's where monitoring is key. If you detect an increasing population of mites you can make a decision whether you want to treat or not, before the hive succumbs to varroa. That's your decision. Wanting to be treatment free is great in theory, but very difficult to do. Especially being new to beekeeping. If that's the route you want to go I would spend a tremendous amount of time studying the varroa mite and learning everything you can about treatment free beekeeping. Good Luck!


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Vandieman, My guess would also be mites. If you go to your state beekeeping forum, located at http://wabeekeepersforum.proboards.com/ , you will see a question regarding losses for this winter. There are some very experienced beekeepers there and so far, almost everyone has lost 25% of their hives. Like it or not, most of the losses of beehives in this country are caused by mites. The summer of 2015, due to the very early spring, the drought and all the other factors, appears to have caused the mite to multiply very early and by the time folks treated in August, the usual time to treat here, it was too late. As stated before, we all want to be treatment free but if the hives are dying from mites, treating is the only option.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

>>I have a friend who got me in to this who has never had a hive make it past January 1st. He loses them to mites every time. However when I question his tactics he simply states that he wants to keep them completely naturally and will not do anything (treatment, QE, Drone frame freezing, oil pans) that nature doesn't provide. >>

How can he pretend maintain hives "naturally" if the environment has an element (varroa mites) that "naturally" should not be there? 
In my opinion this is a disproportionate requirement that he does to their bees in the light of the resources the bees have available.

I wonder if your friend would make this experimentation with dogs or cats, for example.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Were things really that idyllic back in the good old days when everything was natural? Didn't local populations get wiped out by disease or pests and geographic separation stopped the nuisance in its tracks with either, or both, host and parasite going to zero or near zero population, only to slowly be repopulated from outside. 

How can we restore "nature" to an un-natural world. Can you un- ring a bell? Some of our machinations are with us now and we can't simply wish them away. It doesn't need to stop one from wishing though!

Refrain from an old song "The candyman can 'cause he mixes it with love and makes the world taste good"


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## Paulemar (Aug 28, 2013)

Vandieman, 
Beekeeping is no longer easy. You must learn bee biology, varroa biology, be able to adapt to weather patterns & how they effect your bees and pathogens. As Dudelt mentioned about 2015 being a different than normal weather pattern over a lot of the country, it's difficult for even very experienced beekeepers. A very experienced beekeeper who has never led me astray on any beekeeping issue lost 70% of his 100 hives this past fall---so far! He got busy with his business but treated as he normally does & didn't catch the unusually high late season mite loads until it was too late. Even good, knowledgable beekeepers will lose bees if they miss something. It's even more difficult for beekeepers just learning this passion. You have been given some good advice in this thread. Learn from it. We all want you to succeed no matter how you decide to keep your bees, but like they say "You have to learn to walk before you can run" Good luck & future success.

Paul


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

crofter said:


> Were things really that idyllic back in the good old days when everything was natural?


I kept bees in the 1970's in the Virginia Shenandoah, in university labs in Pennsylvania, and in some other spots. American Foulbrood was a ubiquitous threat. The unheralded benefit of Varroa was that AFB nearly disappeared for two decades. The disease carrying hives were killed off.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

crofter said:


> Were things really that idyllic back in the good old days when everything was natural?


The guy I helped a long time ago was anything but natural. I was just a laborer and box builder for him and really had no interest
in what he was doing in the hives or why, but all was not rosy and he had his treatments in the metal cabinet and used them.
I started building his boxes because some old stuff he'd gotten with afb nearly wiped him out and he wanted all new wood for every hive. 
That said, there seemed to be a well rehearsed rhythm to his bee keeping. And folks with a hive or two did ok too, few if any lost bees within a year like now. Since I have had my own bees and my own operation the mite has caused turmoil with management and treatments for them. The rhythm is returning but it's far from well rehearsed
like it was.
Other guys on here have much more to offer re the good old days and in what ways they were and were not but that's my experience.


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## Vandieman (May 27, 2015)

Wanted to give one last reply to thank everyone for chiming in on my issue. I have been talking with Lauri some as suggested and am working on dissecting my hives and then will be trying to prep the equipment for another go around. 

My apologies to anyone who I was less than friendly with, I was rather upset about having just found my girls dead... It is surprising how attached I felt to that batch of insects. 

I'll be looking for advice on how to start again, which I'll start a new thread for, but if anyone wants to chime in on the best means of starting over fresh... My current theory/plan (very tentative, but with some input from Lauri thus far) is to buy package bees from Oregon, either Italians or carniolans (any input?) and immediately treat for mites upon receipt, help them build up for a few cycles before requeening from local stock soon enough that the new queen will have time to replace all the girls in the hive before the end of summer. 

Again, thanks for your help and especially to those of you who used kid gloves with me when I was fragile.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Vandieman said:


> Wanted to give one last reply to thank everyone for chiming in on my issue. I have been talking with Lauri some as suggested and am working on dissecting my hives and then will be trying to prep the equipment for another go around.
> 
> My apologies to anyone who I was less than friendly with, I was rather upset about having just found my girls dead... It is surprising how attached I felt to that batch of insects.
> 
> ...


The only thing I would consider adding to that advice is when you requeen, assuming you allow them to build up to six or so frames of brood AND you have drawn comb. Rather than disbatch the original queen, split her off with two frames of brood and start another hive with her. That way you end up with two hives, learn to do a split, and it will be early enough if something goes wrong you could re-combine them and possibly split again later. Good luck!!


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

2016 will be my first year into beek and this thread opened my eyes for few thing. Hopefully I will learn. When it comes to treatment, I changed my opinions three times in the last three months . Couple of things stand out from this thread:

1. Easy to get excited about Treatment Free. Who doesnt want minimal work and expenditure ? But do I understand amount of work it takes to be TF ? 
2. Manage hives similar to (or EXACTLY) as the person you got them from. If I want TF, I should get my starters from a local TF supplier and get full handle on IPM
3. Monitor closely and do not hesitate to take action
4. All bee management is local. If everyone else around treats, it may be years, lot of heartache, lost money before seeing a successful TF survivors. Getting from local TF beek may ease the process a bit. 
5. Chemistry is basis for Life and everything around is Chemical in nature. Some may differentiate between synthetic and naturally occurring chemicals. But I dont think I can avoid ANY treatment and still come out ok year after year.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Vandieman said:


> ...... treat for mites upon receipt, help them build up for a few cycles before requeening from local stock soon enough that the new queen will have time to replace all the girls in the hive before the end of summer.


My first comment would be to find who the producer of the packages is and call them directly to find out what their mite treatment procedures are. Some package producers treat right before packaging and repeating that could be lethal at the worst or set the colony back at the best. 

You can evaluate the mite load in the package before hiving them. Pull out the syrup can, use a 2x4 as a shim and tilt the package on it's side on a hard surface for 24 hrs, then do a mite drop count. You can place fondant on the screen and spritz with water to keep them in good health while they are on their sides.

If you are starting with 4 again I would not requeen all of them with local stock, do half and see how it works out... you might find the local stock isn't all it is cracked up to be and the money spent for the extra queens was money better spent elsewhere. 

Get a composition journal and start keeping a diary of your daily interactions with each hive.... when you have failures you can compare what you did differently with the hives that succeeded.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

DaisyNJ said:


> 2016 will be my first year......


you are on the right track and have given yourself and real good chance of a successful and enjoyable experience with honey bees
if you implement these thoughts when the time comes.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

clyderoad said:


> you are on the right track and have given yourself and real good chance of a successful and enjoyable experience with honey bees
> if you implement these thoughts when the time comes.


I guess the time will tell. I am bracing for impact


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

DaisyNJ said:


> I guess the time will tell. I am bracing for impact


My lessons learnt from my first year? Treat. Better yet add in the cost and purchase the treatments in spring. Esp if you only have one or two hives it will be too late before you realize something is wrong.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Vandieman said:


> Wanted to give one last reply to thank everyone for chiming in on my issue. I have been talking with Lauri some as suggested and am working on dissecting my hives and then will be trying to prep the equipment for another go around.


Sounds like you on the right track.

Wonder if every thread you will start will turn into a kind of monster like this one was!


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

Harley Craig said:


> and yet she is very open and honest about her need to treat, sure she has been able to keep some colonies off treatments for extended amounts of time, but she has a very intimate knowledge of what her bees need and when. The best advice I was ever given was obtain bees locally from someone who is successful and keep them EXACTLY like they do. Once you have that figured out..... then experiment if you want.


:applause:


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

kaizen said:


> My lessons learnt from my first year? Treat. Better yet add in the cost and purchase the treatments in spring. Esp if you only have one or two hives it will be too late before you realize something is wrong.


 NOW hold on there ... I bought my bees from a guy that's been TF for 13 years now I think it is . I'm coming up on my 3rd summer and have never treated ... 
BUT I did monitor mite levels the first summer . I didn't the 2nd summer because all hives (1 in '14 , splits/swarms to 4 in '15) had a brood break - AND they're supposed to be TF bees. 
I will be watching mite levels closely this summer , both because I don't plan on brood breaks in all hives and because I don't know who my virgin queens mated with . If I'm lucky , the TF beek I bought from has saturated the area with his genetics (he lives ~7 miles away and has sold colonies to others that live close to me) and my bees will keep the traits he has bred for . If I'm not , I'll be treating with OAV to keep my bees alive . <<Aside - I live in a very isolated area , only one commercial op and he's over 20 miles away . Until I got bees , I hadn't seen a single honey bee here in the over 10 years we had the property .>>
I say there are a LOT of things to be considered , and blanket statements like that might be inaccurate . I might be one of the lucky ones that get away with TF from the start ... or I may be treating to keep them alive . Only time and inspections will tell .


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Terry C said:


> I'm coming up on my 3rd summer and have never treated ...


Does this mean that you are in the middle of your second winter? If so, do you understand that it's a bit early to be bragging?


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

beemandan said:


> Does this mean that you are in the middle of your second winter? If so, do you understand that it's a bit early to be bragging?


 ABSOLUTELY ! However , let me qualify that . I have 4 hives , 3 are pretty strong and one is kinda puny , always was a bit behind the others . All hives were at or over 100 Lbs at the first of December - that's a deep and one medium . There has been no sign of DWV or any other indication of disease . Hives 1 & 2 are the strongest , and have a lot of activity on warm days , 3 (the weakling) a little , and #4 a fair amount . The hives have been consuming stores in a direct relationship with strength , varying from 3-4 lbs/month to 1-2 , and #3 no noticeable difference . I fully expect to lose that hive , simply because we're coming into the worst part of our winter here and from what I can tell the cluster is pretty small . But they may make it and if so , depending on how much honey they make , might be a prime candidate for after-solstice nucs . Of course that also depends on how the other 3 do too ... 
Hey , if I come out of this winter with only one colony , I can come back - and will have gained invaluable knowledge from the experience . 
I'm an optimist ...


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Terry C said:


> I'm an optimist ...


An important quality....whether a conventional or treatment free beekeeper.


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

Terry C said:


> I'm coming up on my 3rd summer and have never treated ...


Keep a close eye on them. 
The third year is when they typically crash.


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## popeye (Apr 21, 2013)

Very good thread


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

scorpionmain said:


> Keep a close eye on them.
> The third year is when they typically crash.


 I'm aware of this which is why I plan to monitor closely this year . I'd rather not treat , but if it's a choice of treat or die , I'll be fabricating an OAV unit out in the machine shop .


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Terry C said:


> I'm aware of this which is why I plan to monitor closely this year . I'd rather not treat , but if it's a choice of treat or die , I'll be fabricating an OAV unit out in the machine shop .


In your situation and the fact that you got bees from a TF source my guess is they will fail to thrive for a yr before they crash, when they fail to thrive on the 3rd or 4 the yrs whatever it is then bust them up to reset them, that is the model we see here with TF bees. Check with the guy you got them from though and see what he does in that situation


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

Well , the coming summer will be year 2 for these queens ... The only thing I can do is monitor . Can't make good decisions without data . The guy I got them from hasn't seemed real helpful since he found out one of my best friends is someone he dislikes intensely ... but that's OK , AR Beekeeper has been helping me through the rough spots .


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Terry C said:


> The guy I got them from hasn't seemed real helpful since he found out one of my best friends is someone he dislikes intensely ....


Ha, the joys of the modern world, and likes / dislikes formed over the internet no doubt! 

Or if they are all local maybe they have actually met?


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

Both locals , they had sons in the same Boy Scout troop . One guy went to Canada , the other spent some time at an AF base in Thailand ... over 40 years ago .


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Terry C said:


> ... over 40 years ago .


Some folks are pretty good at holding a grudge.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Vandieman said:


> She lives close enough by me that when I bought the Nucs from her, I had to shut them in to keep them from flying home to her house.


For a start, that did not do them any good. I remember you called me in a panic because when you lifted the lid on the nucs, which were confined during transport, they took to the air. Then when you placed the frames into your hives and closed them up confining them, a large portion of the bees had clustered under the hives. No telling how many of your forages flew back to my place. No telling how much of the brood got chilled with that many bees being lost or confined outside the hive overnight. Your plan was to confine them for 3 days, if I remember right.

I did advise you ( and any close neighbors that buy bees from me) is to take the nucs to a temporary location for a week or so, then move them back to your location which is about 1 mile from my place. I also warned you about how easily confined bees can suffocate and your plan to confine them for a couple days is not a good idea for a beginner to try.

I also did see you had ended up with a nuc that had what appeared to be a bit of chalk brood and_ I did offer to replace it_. When making up nucs, it's hard to see every cell that early in spring when frames are covered with bees. Sometimes I get a couple hives that have a touch of it coming out of winter. 
You did not want to bring it back for replacement.

While you did feed you nucs when you received them, I also remember you had one that would not take up syrup for about a month. Then you changed jars and they sucked up the entire jar of syrup in a day. You thought the previous jar's holes for that particular nuc were not large enough to access. So that nuc was pretty much starved for the first month you had it, especially with the early loss of foragers. I believe that nuc was the one you were not happy with the growth. I did give you a new queen to replace her, although it was doubtful it was a queen issue.

Our winter temps in 2014-2015 were very warm and I did have more mites in some colonies than usual because of the early brood rearing cycles. While I do alcohol washes and do take care nucs don't have mite issues or mite loads that are anywhere close to needing treatment, folks that want buy nucs that have had less treatment & want to try treatment free beekeeping need to realize nucs do have _some_ mites and you do need to monitor colonies during the season to take care they progress in an acceptable manor.

I am not convinced mites were the issue in this case. Especially when comparing comments and reports of good success from other customers and my own observations with my remaining colonies all season.

Treatment free is possible, but takes experience and work to achieve it.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...eally-that-easy&highlight=treatment+free+easy

Here is what I state on my nuc ad:

"Washington Bred & Raised nucs are more expensive than nucs and packages brought up from California after almond pollination services are done. Please do your research and be aware of the differences between these two products. 

I think you will be pleased with the quality of these genetics that have overwintered & thrived in our wet & cool Western Washington climate.

Some mistakes by the beekeeper cannot be compensated for, no matter what the quality of the colony. My queens can be squished as easily as any other. If you are inexperienced and unsure, Please consider your choices carefully before you purchase."

As I said on the phone, with all your drawn frames now, you can get package bees, let them build and then requeen with good local stock and you will be back in business. I also suggested you use some of those frames and box's to set up a couple swarm traps around your place. Who knows, some of my bad girls may make their break and fly your way

It's a bummer you lost your bees, you did make several mistakes and not feeding during our extended summer dearth, record high temperatures and year long drought (which killed even mature trees in our area,) not checking for mite loads and not treating when advised were big ones. 

But you have not lost as much as you think. What do you have now, about 100 frames of newly drawn comb? Clean wax with no exposures to commercial agriculture. Some of those frames filled with honey? What are those worth? You might have to invest in more bees, but you did retain a valuable asset from your initial investment. Just make sure you protect them from excessive mold, moisture, wax moth and mice.


I always tell folks that overwintering bees is tricky and while I like to have a positive view, there is a good chance you (Like most others before you) will lose you bees until you get some experience.

I tell them to consider your first bees and 'educational expense'. If you think of it that way, you won't be so devastated if you are not successful you first season.


While large established hives are very resilient and self sufficient, small starter colonies (nucs and packages) are vulnerable and very dependent on getting the correct care from the beekeeper, especially in early spring-slightly out of season situations. 

Early mistakes can hurt their growth, But summer offers time to rectify and recover.

Late summer mistakes are a recipe for failure. If there is no colony growth late summer due to lack of feed & possibly mite issues, no growth going into winter, no chance for recovery. Going into fall with capped honey, but bone dry cells every where else is also a something inexperienced beekeepers overlook. They are fooled by the weight of the hive alone and don't realize that without syrup or a good fall flow, the bees have had no real chance to rear late summer brood so you have young bees going into winter. Aged bees cluster on empty cells and starve within inches of capped honey.

Winter housing the small colonies in too large of a hive configuration with fully open screen bottom boards and the excessive moisture issues were just extra nails in the coffin I'm sorry to say. 

My facebook page has invaluable information for _real time management_ in our area. Facebook allows me to 'mentor' many beekeepers with short daily posts. I tell you when I feed, when I treat, what your bees should look like (populations) at that particular time of year, etc along with *lots of photos* so you understand what I am talking about. 

There are four years of posts there..hundreds of posts & photos. If all you did was take the time to scroll through them all, you'd have a good idea about local seasonal management, how I manage my bees and many of the situations I've run across over the years.

The information is there, easily accessible for all to take advantage of. It allows me to mentor, allows me to get my work done and allows me to retain my privacy.

Signing up for facebook is free.



While public forums are excellent for getting opinions and feedback, they are only as good as the initial information you provide. These details I mention are still limited because they are based solely on what you told me over the phone. The opinions you receive are only as accurate as your ability to correctly describe the details you are seeing.


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## Vandieman (May 27, 2015)

Quote:
While public forums are excellent for getting opinions and feedback, they are only as good as the initial information you provide. These details I mention are still limited because they are based solely on what you told me over the phone. The opinions you receive are only as accurate as your ability to correctly describe the details you are seeing.

Response:
Thanks for that response, Lauri. My lack of knowledge in communicating the situation and or knowing the questions to ask was a huge factor in my many mistakes. I don't intend any of what I have said to be any reflection upon you or your bees. 

I fully acknowledge that my management of the bees is what killed them, and I feel you have been a great help through my learning process, as painful as it has been. 

Thanks again for all the added info, I'll be sure to comb through it as I try to make preparations for a better attempt at beekeeping than I made this last year.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

You are quite the diplomat Vandieman.


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## Cris (Mar 10, 2011)

Grease patties with teatree oil.


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## Vandieman (May 27, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> You are quite the diplomat Vandieman.


Heh, I don't know about that, I just don't want Lauri thinking I blame her for my mistakes, or anyone else thinking that Lauri was anything but a great supplier and help to me, her customer.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Lots of folks trying to help here, and with all the speculation about what _could_ be wrong, I did feel I needed to state some of the situation in the care of the nucs. Not really sure if you had considered some of that since it wasn't mentioned in your posts.

As I said above " there is a good chance you (_Like most others before you_) will lose your bees until you get some experience." That also includes me.

My second year I bought 20 nucs and 25 packages. By the fall, _every nuc you see here was dead_. Every package thrived and overwintered. That was an expensive education, but I quickly became a better beekeeper because of it, and I am actually thankful now because it made me buckle down and figure things out.










Figuring out exactly what happened is very important. I see people lose their bees year after year and blame the wrong thing, so they never progress.

If you bring some of your frames with dead bees and the bottom board with the layer of dead bees over, I'll go through it with you. 

We are discussing building swarm traps now on the facebook page. I've always wanted to put a couple traps over on JBLM.. You could do that easily. Use brackets from South End Hardware to attach it to trees without damage to the tree. Next time I go jogging out there, I'll ask the MP's if there are any restrictions on something like that. Access to the base does require an annual permit.










I also have a list of local bee suppliers on facebook. But they are also almost sold out, so If I were you, I'd give them a call sooner rather than later.










(Photo below off the internet) 
I can envision a trap like this right across the street from your house.


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## Vandieman (May 27, 2015)

Thanks for the advice, Lauri,

I'm trying to get an order in for packages, and am curious if you (or others) have advice on Italian vs carniolan for our area? As with most things beekeeping, I'm getting contradictory opinions... I suspect it doesn't matter much, given the need to likely requeen, but depending on what I requeen with, perhaps it could make a difference?

Also, I'd love to come over and have you take a look at some frames. Sadly, I dumped out the bottom boards when I discovered the bees dead, as clearing the boards to make room for flights was part of my intent in the yard that day. I probably should have stopped when I discovered they were dead, but that's hindsight talking... When would be a good day/time? My days are pretty open (except Thursdays), while my nights are full.

As far as local stock go for requeening, I'd also be interested in your thoughts on what breed to requeen with? It seems to me like there are an incredible number of different options, which I honestly didn't consider last year at all, having just assumed whatever you sold me would be best, and not thinking to ask what it was you gave me!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I don't remember what you got, but it was probably a couple Mountain and a couple Glenn nucs. I didn't rear any Pol-Line's until late spring of 2015.
Here is a description of my lines, just copied and pasted off a Facebook post.


My Mountain line of queens:
I collected a swarm in a fairly remote area up towards Mt. Rainier a few years ago. This colony was extremely self sufficient, gentle and productive. After over wintering, I started grafting queens from the original Swarm queen and selected the best daughters for continued grafting.

They were very productive, had no significant mite issues, were gentle and no matter how much I invaded their hive, they always took it in stride with no setbacks.
I routinely removed frames of both brood and honey too keep breeder queens hives manageable enough I could find the queen on a regular basis for grafting. They would rebuild at an amazing rate.

I got four distinctly different colors from the original collected queen, from solid black to what I'd call a Buckskin color. They were mostly solid or shaded colors with no significant striping.

While the 'feral' status of any honeybee is questionable these days, I was pretty convinced these bees had been living on their own for quite a while, I'd expect several years without human management.
As of this fall, several of the original 2012 daughters are currently going into their fourth winter. While they are no longer productive compared to younger queens, their longevity is impressive.

I graft about 50/50% from the oldest queens and younger queens to retain base line genetics and take advantage of the newer evolved mixing from open mating with the other lines I have on the place (Glenn line, USDA Pol-Line & Latshaw's Carniolan line)


My Glenn line of queens:
After being involved with raising livestock for 30 years, I had realized many years ago, that if I had spent a little more money on better breeding stock in the beginning, I would have been years ahead, would have saved thousands of dollars and reached my goals a lot faster with better breeding stock VS trying to "Breed up" from average stock.

So when I started keeping bees, I immediately recognized the benefit of getting the best breeding stock I could find, even though I was still inexperienced beekeeper. I purchased inseminated breeder queens from Glenn Apiaires. (Luckily, because the Glenns retired and these II breeder queens are no longer available)

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/


They have been exceptional bees. Like the Mountain line, they are self sufficient, disease resistant and control mites well on their own or with occasional treatments. 
No antibiotics are ever used with any of my hives, no Fumagillin. I just don't have health issues that warrant their use.

The Glenn line is a little more demanding of respectful behavior from the beekeeper, compared to the Mountain line. 
They are generally mild mannered bees , but are more willing to object to rough or clumsy handling, squishing bees, dropping frames, etc.. Although it sounds corny, it runs through my mind when I work them, they are kind of smart. A couple puffs of smoke in the air to settle them and a few moments and they figure out you're not a threat and I have no issues with full deep inspections. 

I work most of my hives in shorts, long sleeve shirt, veil and surgical gloves during the hottest days of summer, I would would wear long jeans for my biggest Glenn hives. That's the extent of my extra protection. 
They are funny bees, when you first open their hive, they will 'talk'. A low gentle staccato sound that is hard to describe. I take it as their way of communication when discussing whether or not I am a threat. It kind of cracks me up.

I have always grafted from the darkest Glenns so most of the bees are black striped.
Glenn line queens are also mostly dark striped and can be hard to find if not marked. Mature queens will usually stay stock still and hide under nurse bees when exposed.


Here is a description of what a Pol-Line queen is:

Pol-line (or Pol-line Hygienic Italian) queens have a combination of the best traits required for pollination and high honey production. They were developed by the USDA to express Varroa Sensitive Hygienic behavior (VSH) to a functional level for controlling mites and brood disease, while maintaining the high productivity required in today's challenging commercial beekeeping environment. Pol-line breeders will produce a wide assortment of phenotypes. Good selection from daughters should result in some highly desirable stock.



Here is my description for these Pol-Line/Carniolan crosses:

In 2014 I purchased Pol-Line virgin queens from VP Queens. (USDA stock) 

After over wintering I chose the best & grafted 2 batches from her, then almost immediately chose the best daughters for another generation for the most Carniolan influence from my open mating area with my current survivor stock.

First generation daughters were excellent, as were the second generation. Most of the Pol-Line/Carniolan hybrids are dark or dark striped. Some are a deep golden color. All were very productive. Got about 50 of them currently overwintering.

Mite tolerance has not yet been established, but so far they are doing excellent.
So far, these have been gentle bees and make a tremendous amount of honey.

I am still evaluating them for more details on their traits, such as brooding down during dearth periods & brooding down for winter -conserving feed stores better than straight Italian strains. But since they have been mated three times here, the amount of Carniolan blood should be sufficient for seasonal controlled brood production.


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

I've notice some package suppliers in our area are suggesting Italians over Carniolans this year, claiming the Italians are better mated for April packages. For years it's been thought Carnies would winter better here in WA state. Although some commercials I know still run Italians, as they send bees to almonds.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

We are every fortunate, Our climate is actually about perfect for any strain of bee, as long as you know their traits and needs. 

Italians typically will brood more prolifically at any given period during the year, when compared to the Carni crosses. Italians may need more honey left in the hive overwinter to accommodate a larger more active colony. You may not get a winter time brood break with Italians, so winter mite treatments like OAV or a OA dribble may not be as effective as when applied to other types such as Carniolans. But Italians are typically dog gentle the the preferred strain for beginners and those that are wanting to produce a large crop of honey. One of the reasons the commercial's use them. They are perfect for their needs.

But are they perfect for yours? That depends on your climate and what you actually want out of your bees. 

Carnies are frugal with their stores and brood down in times of dearth or winter. Late summer I don't have massive bees flying around being pesky and looking for natural feed that is not there. I have very little problems with robbing, even in the tiny mating nucs. They are more sensitive to stimulative feeding or natural feed sources for brood rearing motivation. Although they are gentle, they have enough self preservation instincts that when the yellow jackets come-a-calling late summer, I have no issues with yellow jacket assaults.

I have both types and use their traits accordingly.


The Pol-Line/ Carniolan hybrids I have personally, in early observations, I do see an over wintering difference between the first and second generations that have more Carniolan breeding.

First generation didn't brood down as much as the second generation did going into winter. They both made a tremendous amount of honey when in double deeps and both are wintering well. 
But where I see the difference is in the small mating nucs I attempt to overwinter in place.

I had 2 first generation mating nucs on MINI frames overpopulate and starve out. Something I Never see here with my other lines. There was just not enough room to store enough honey to hold them over winter. It's been cool here this winter with no real flying activity. Many times in the teens. You can see this mating nuc is not insulated except for the lid.

Photo shows a divided double mating nuc. Each side had a first generation Pol-Line/Carniolan hybrid. Upon late January check, Left side was in good shape, but low on stores. Right side had a large population of bees and starved. Both were given a thick sugar block on 11-10-15, but went through them faster that I realized. 
Problem with having them hanging on the fence by brackets is that you can't heft them to quickly check the weight. They were likely in trouble when I placed the first block and I didn't realize it because I neglected to check the weight of the nuc at that time.

Second generation Pol-Line crosses are overwintering well on mini frames.

In comparison, I have 27 other mating nucs on mini frames this size also over wintering. Only these two starved out and they were both first generation Pol-Lines. A preliminary conclusion, but certainly noteworthy.

In the large hive configurations the first generation will likely give me good populations for making up early nucs and taking advantage of our Maple flow, but I'll have to keep my eye on the weight of the hives more closely that the other lines with more Carniolan influence..

I have to watch the weight in my Carniolan Hybrids too, but that concern is I can't have hives going into the Maple flow that have too much weight, too much honey and no room for expansion and new nectar storage. 

That's typically about the time I start to make up my nucs. In the past I've had plenty of honey frames and a good amount of bees that early in the season, but the Pol-lines_ should _offer me more bees to shake into nucs if needed. That's one of the reason's I brought the line in.

I might even have enough surplus bees to make up some packages at some point. Nice for top bar hives or other custom configurations that don't take standard frames. Nice for shaking into starter colonies for queen rearing. Lots of slightly increased options over just the Carniolan Hybrids.

This is a detail that would make a difference if you lived in a extreme cold climate with a limited season.

I have to say, those double deeps with the Pol-Line /Carni hybrids are some of the heaviest out there. I heft 80-100 # bales of hay every day, so I know what that kind of weight feels like. Those double deeps are so heavy I can hardly tip them. Thought they were just stuck to the bench at first.

This is a good example of how the different lines can have different traits and need different management. Throw in your own specific climate and your have your local beekeeping particulars you have to figure out on your own.

Being aware of your bees needs, depending on their traits is crucial to successful overwintering.
Although I know the reputation of each strain, This situation below surprised me. I learned to manage bees with my Carniolans and need a slight adjustment for the Italian cross.

If they were just over wintered in standard large hive configurations, I may have never noticed such a difference. But in a tiny mating nuc colony size, the differences were amplified.

The fact of the matter is, I may not be able to get away with over wintering the Pol-Line crosses in such small configurations. Not a big deal as long as I know it and can prepare them accordingly.














































In comparison, here's what one of those frames looked like in the summer months:










Beautiful bees, great performance, my fault for not anticipating the needs of a different strain.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Hope you don't give up. Honestly, I wouldn't even worry about drift back, bees are resilient, but confining bees is never a great idea, I'll leave it at that. The best thing to do is re-orient the hive to a different position, this will cause some confusion and promote instant re-orientation for some of the foragers. You may still lose a fair amount but a strong nuc wouldn't be affected too much with losing a foraging force.


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

I'm not sure how willing new beekeepers are to a pinch a first year package queen and replace her with a more local one the same season. It is not unreasonable to me, but then I'm not buying oodles of packages and buying countless queens half way through the summer. My comment was aimed more at the notion that package sellers are realizing that queen breeders in CA have been producing poorer Carnies than Italians the past few seasons, with drought, etc. My local package supplier had very bad "luck" with the quality of the queens from northern CA. last year. I mentored someone who purchased three April packages, 2 Carnies and 1 Italian. Two failed to supersede, and one succeeded. All three lost or replaced their queens by late June


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Here's another difference I have see between my current line of Carniolan Hybrids and some of the early 'Italian' bees I had as package bees from a commercial line. I say 'Italian' because that was what they were called. Who knows what they really were or where they came from. Photo below is from one of the commercial package queens










While these frames make for a good photo, is it too much of a good thing? I'd rather have the honey stored _ON the frame_, not on top the frames (in between box's).

Here are how my current bees with strong Carnolan influence typically do: 




























This is just my limited experience with my first package bees and some may have different views. 

But it does show, different strains will have different traits. Some folks may want all that honey all over the place. I found it to me overly messy when working hives, especially in late summer when slimming the queen at that time of year is a fatal mistake, unless you have spare queens lying around.


Now any bees that are overlooked or neglected and run out of space will do this on top the frames










I'm talking about clean frames between box's:










And this hive above has over wintered twice, housed in 4 deeps + supers. Photo was taken in late summer of 2015. Those are clean tidy bees. Mountain line


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

rsjohnson2u said:


> I'm not sure how willing new beekeepers are to a pinch a first year package queen and replace her with a more local one the same season. It is not unreasonable to me, but then I'm not buying oodles of packages and buying countless queens half way through the summer. My comment was aimed more at the notion that package sellers are realizing that queen breeders in CA have been producing poorer Carnies than Italians the past few seasons, with drought, etc. My local package supplier had very bad "luck" with the quality of the queens from northern CA. last year. I mentored someone who purchased three April packages, 2 Carnies and 1 Italian. Two failed to supersede, and one succeeded. All three lost or replaced their queens by late June


Why pinch her unless you think she is a poor performer? 
There are folks that have package failures as you say, folks that have collected local swarms that missed the queen, folks that have overwintered hives need to be split to avoid swarming or that have come out of winter queenless. Get the word out you have a few package queens you want to replace because you want to try locally mated queens, and you have people fighting over them.

You'll make a couple $$ to help pay for your personally selected queens and someone will save their colony before it's too late. Typical going price for extra package queens is $20.00 around here.

I see on the commercial forums, etc, that some commercial beekeepers are OAV treating their colonies before going to almonds. It will be interesting to see the improvement in package bee quality because of that. I'm not involved in commercial beekeeping, but do pay attention to what they do. I would expect improvement with the legalization of OA. treatments.

If I ever had to buy package bees, I'd install them with a single frame of brood from a donor hive in the center of your new or drawn frames. Makes the likely hood of absconding or early supercedure less likely. If they still try to supercede that queen, She needed it.

But if folks want bees earlier in the season than it is really practical for the bees natural cycles and the optimal mating season for queens, you do only get what is possible to produce. Weather and natural feed sources make an impact on the final product. Supplemental feeding only goes so far.

California goes from one extreme to another it seems. From extended drought conditions to monsoon rain, flooding and mud. Any agricultural product that is available to consumers when the first warm days of spring arrive mean the guys and gals that produce them were working in the last throws of winter in the rain, mud and sometimes snow.


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

Lauri said:


> Why pinch her unless you think she is a poor performer?
> There are folks that have package failures as you say, folks that have collected local swarms that missed the queen, folks that have overwintered hives need to be split to avoid swarming or that have come out of winter queenless. Get the word out you have a few package queens you want to replace because you want to try locally mated queens, and you have people fighting over them.
> .


Well, kinda like you said before, different strains of bees have different needs and behaviors. So, even if they perform well early on, it doesn't mean they will later or in winter. Why not replace them with a queen more adapted to your own environment and probably raised better than in a large commercial setting? Selling them off just means your drones will have to compete with theirs somewhere down the road.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Although I can see some weaknesses in this report, it is still good information.

http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE10-694&y=2010&t=1


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Personally I wouldn't keep any (First generation) southern bred queens in my climate. Even those Pol-Line queens I bought from the East Coast that are from a similar climate as mine are derived _USDA stock_. And exactly where did those come from? I'm not sure. One of the reasons I bought them as virgin queens and got them mated here with my proven stock. They were developed by the USDA and VP Queens to have exceptional traits for a certain use. It's my job to further develop subsequent generations to make them exceptional for _local _use.




SRatcliff said:


> Well, kinda like you said before, different strains of bees have different needs and behaviors. So, even if they perform well early on, it doesn't mean they will later or in winter. Why not replace them with a queen more adapted to your own environment and probably raised better than in a large commercial setting?


You are exactly right, they usually do well for most of the summer, then fail over winter when it's too late to do anything about it. They can fool you though. They usually do so well in the beginning, that even if the beekeeper fully intended to replace with local stock, they sometimes change their mind. Those are the queens you hate to see pinched.

BUT...

It's a real weak link to bet the entire colony's survival on a single bug. Especially from an unknown source, of unknown age, unknown exposures and unknown traits.

Now if you can get some information about their particulars, you can make an informed decision about them. But normally these colonies are brought in by a third party or club and there is no information available. 

But no matter what your opinion of these southern queens are, they still have their place for getting colonies started or coming in handy in a 'pinch', No pun intended inch: 

That's exactly what nucs and packages are...Starter colonies. Their continued progression into acclimatized long lived colonies is _up to the new beekeeper_ to assure a higher rate of success in their own individual circumstances.

In California those same queens may have continued to be great producers. In colder climates...they may very well not be bred to be prepared for months of clustering with few cleansing flights and broodless periods.

Remember though, just a 'new queen' is no better than your package queen unless you know her background.

There is a reason queen producers sell out _early_ every year. Many this year are already sold out until June I am told.

That's why I learned to rear my own queens. I have excellent control over my genetics, I have queens available at any time. I leave nothing to chance, unless I'm running some wacky experiment.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Both of you are correct that different bee species will require
different method of handling. Right now we are not in the
early Spring expansion mode, yet the Italians/Cordovan is brooding up nicely
with a well fed plump (barrel body) queen while the carnis and Russians mutts are still
having a skinny body queen. They all laid but the Italians are cranking
up and expanding but the carnis and Russians are still in their winter survival mode.
The Italians don't care as long as they have the empty cells the
queen will put eggs in doesn't matter if the bees can cover the
broods. Later on there will be some cold snaps in Feb. I'm sure.
I made the mistake this year with a bee experiment thinking that
the Russians mutt queen will expand faster. So I devoted more
bee resources to her. Now that I found out the Italians are expanding
faster I need to do the opposite. So this weekend when it is not raining I
will put in more bee resources into the Italian hive and reduced the
carnis and Russians hive back to a nuc. Will feeding them all with sugar
syrup help beef up the carnis and Russians queens more?


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## BooneCtyBeek (Jun 20, 2011)

I'll throw in here. We started in 2006. We tried going treatment free. We lost at least 50% of our hives the three years. Not a good business plan to get to 100 hives. We began using oxalic acid vaporization. Hive loss has been 10% to 20%.

In our small hive ware business we talk to a lot of hobbyists. First question I ask when they say their bees died is about treating for varroa. To a person not one had.

Treatment free is a laudable goal. It is not how I would recommend a new beekeeper start out. It is very frustrating to lose your bees the first year. It is pull your hair out maddening if it happens two years in a row. Too many beekeepers just pack it in after that. I don't know about Vanieman, but it gets a bit salty repopulating hives year after year. Add to that probably no honey crop either. Beekeeping is expensive but it doesn't need to be a financial black hole.

We all love our hobby or business. It should be our goal to keep new beekeepers engaged and satisfied. If, after they've become as successful as one can in keeping bees alive over the winter and they have the curiosity to explore, more power to them. There are a lot of fun things to try, just not at first.


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