# Import Saharan bees for TF beekeeping?



## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Is there anyone interested in getting a permit to import and start a breeding project of Varroa resistant Saharan bees? The recent bee imports to the US have been only of the most common kinds of bees that are already being kept by beekeepers around the world (Italian bees, Carniolan bees, Caucasian bees). Would there be people interested in trying something other than the common bees already kept by commercial beekeepers to get some diversity in bee breeding projects?

Artificial insemination will be needed to keep the breeding line close to purity and keep a breeding project going. From what I understand, it is a lot of work to do artificial insemination. Artificial insemination equipment for sale at $255 (not sure if it is high quality equipment):








Instrumental insemination of queen bees. | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Instrumental insemination of queen bees. at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com





I think you need to buy the regulator separately, and the CO2 gas


----------



## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

AFAIK only semen can be imported, not live bees. Imagine the permitting for that would still be very involved, and expensive. Possible region exclusions, ie Europe might be possible but not Africa.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

not trying to be a smart A$$ but if you think you like those bees,, go over there and play with them there.
IF you still think they are all that and a bag of chips, then work the importation angle.
Maybe you find something out that makes the whole plan not worth doing.
better that way then after months if not years of work.

GG


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

No.


----------



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

If serious about pursuing this, I might suggest corresponding with Dr. Kefuss, who imported Intermissa stock to France in the 1990's to continue his resistance breeding work:



Litsinger said:


> I recently received a French language publication from Dr. Kefuss (attached) which spelled-out in further detail some additional aspects of his work with the Intermissa / Carnica lines which ultimately formed the basis for his TF program. In it I found that this line actually has a breeder number (Kvar93) and that it has found it's way into the Buckfast breeding program...


It would no doubt need to flow through the auspices of a research institution (i.e. NC State) and even then ...

Maybe scrounge up some of the 'German Black's descendants in remote corners of North Carolina as a genetic cousin?


----------



## JB33 (Jul 27, 2021)

As others have said, this wouldn't be possible legally due to the strict rules/regulations surrounding the import of honey bees / genetic materials. The USDA would most likely never approve such an importation due to the risks of importing "undesirable "subspecies such as scutellata and capensis. They are very cautious and won't even let us import queens from Canada even though our bees likely interact near the border. 

Now, even if such an importation were possible, I don't think it would change anything. The problem isn't that we are lacking special lines/genetics that are varroa resistant. We already have stocks of bees that are very resistant to varroa. The problems that we always end up running into are 1. open mating for production queens and 2. the tradeoffs that typically come with highly mite resistant bees. The Hilo bee project is trying to solve both of these problems and hopefully they are successful. 

Beekeepers very often feel the grass is greener when it comes to different stocks of bees. Sue Coby has said that when she traveled to the Republic of Georgia to collect Caucasian germplasm, she was asked by the beekeepers if she could give them Italian honey bees. Even though the Caucasian bees are the best suited for the area, the beekeepers wanted Italians.


----------



## Some Bloke (Oct 16, 2021)

1. Brother Adam wrote about different strains of bee he encountered around the world. I can't recall if he visited the Sahara but generally the more hotile the environment the more defensive the bee. African bees were prone to sting first, ask questions later.

2. Have you heard of Africanised Honey Bees? Ever wondered how the arose?


----------



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Some Bloke said:


> Brother Adam wrote about different strains of bee he encountered around the world. I can't recall if he visited the Sahara but generally the more hotile the environment the more defensive the bee.


Brother Adam wrote:

*The Saharan bee*
_
I believe it was Philippe J. Baldensberger (†1948) who first drew attention to the race in 1921. He discovered this bee at Figuig, the most easterly Moroccan oasis. As far as our present knowledge indicates, Figuig is also the most easterly point at which the race can be found. It is certainly not found in the more well known oases of Algeria, such as Laghouat, Bou Saada, Biskra or Ghardaia. Westwards its distribution extends at least as far as Ouarzazate, as we were able to verify ourselves. It should be realized that this race is hemmed in by two great natural barriers: by the towering Atlas chain of mountains on the north-west, and by an endless waste of sand in the east and south. Moreover, each of the various oases is almost as effectively isolated one from others by miles of barren desert extending between them. As far as I could ascertain, there can be little or no interbreeding in most localities.

The question arises: how did this race originate? There can be no doubt that this Saharan bee is a distinct race — distinct in its external and physiological characteristics. We know that throughout North Africa, from Tripolitania to the most southerly point of Morocco bordering the Atlantic, the jet-black bee, A. mellifera var. intermissa, holds undisputed sway. But here, wedged in between the Atlas and the Sahara, we have within a relatively small area, confined to the fringe of the desert, miniature pockets of a distinct yellow race of bee. I cannot for one moment believe that sahariensis should in course of time have evolved from intermissa. There is no similarity between the two races. Mr. Haccour holds the view that Jewish immigrants may have brought the original stock from the Middle East more than two thousand years ago, and that in the intervening years, due to the special environment, the bee we now know as sahariensis was evolved. However, all the Middle East races are well known to me, and I can discern little or no similarity. Externally sahariensis resembles Apis indica more than any other bees, but the similarity extends no further.

The pure sahariensis is not yellow; the colour might best be described as light tan. But a wide variation is manifested, and the colour extends in varying degrees to all the dorsal segments. Owing to the darker colour and the considerable variation in markings, the Saharan bee is by no means as attractive as the more brightly coloured races. In size this bee is midway between ligustica and syriaca. The queens also vary in colour, from bright yellow to dark brown — though never black. The drones are remarkably uniform and have two conspicuous bronze–coloured segments.

I have found the pure queens moderately prolific. The bees are relatively good-tempered, but rather nervous, particularly in times of dearth. When a hive is opened they run to and fro, just as wasps will when their nest is disturbed. They also fly up in great numbers, but do not act aggressively. Also, when under manipulation, the bees fall off the combs very readily. They seem to have the least foothold of any bees I know. In this respect the Italian bee represents the other extreme — she can only be dislodged with force. One other notable characteristic of sahariensis is its quick flight from the entrance. There is no loitering of any kind — a quality which I believe Baldensberger already noted. She tends to propolize, but not excessively. The pure sahariensis suffered a heavy loss of bees at Buckfast in the severe winter of 1962–63, but the colonies survived in surprisingly good condition and strength. Those with first–cross queens wintered outstandingly well in every way. A first cross, Saharan queens to our own drones, has proved surpassingly prolific — indeed the most prolific cross we have so far tested in our apiaries. In addition the brood is wonderfully compact and — most remarkable for a first cross — little or no drone brood is raised. This characteristic was manifested by every colony with a first–cross queen of this type. I regard it as a most desirable quality, for most hybrids tend to raise drones to excess, and certain crosses will invariably spoil a set of combs or foundations to such an extent that their further use in uneconomic. Though the pure sahariensis is reputed to be addicted to swarming, I have not found this to be so in a first cross. It is premature to express a view on the nectar gathering and general foraging ability of this cross, since the summer of 1962 proved a complete failure in south-west Devon. Indeed it was the worst season in my forty-nine years of beekeeping. I will however say this: the Saharan bee, when suitably crossed, has great possibilities. On the other hand, the pure sahariensis is itself unlikely to prove of much value to the beekeeper.

A number of claims are made for this race, such as exceptional tongue reach, great wing power and foraging ability. The question of tongue reach will be determined as soon as reliable biometric data are at hand. The sahariensis is undoubtedly an exceptionally active bee, but I cannot say whether her range of flight is as great as has been assumed. Evidence may be forthcoming later to give us some reliable information on this point. Considering the environment in its native habitat, the assumption may well prove correct._


----------



## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Gray Goose said:


> not trying to be a smart A$$ but if you think you like those bees,, go over there and play with them there.
> IF you still think they are all that and a bag of chips, then work the importation angle.
> Maybe you find something out that makes the whole plan not worth doing.
> better that way then after months if not years of work.
> ...


I have thought about that. It would be cool to go to Africa to visit some beekeepers there and see their bees.

I don't know if I would actually continue a breeding project with instrumental insemination. I have depression and so it makes it hard for me to do things. Instrumental insemination looks like a lot of work... But if there is someone already going to do artificial insemination to breed resistant bees for TF beekeeping they might be able to maintain a line of an unusual subspecies of bee, like the Saharan bee, while they are at it.

There could be some benefits to having an unusual subspecies. Such as possibly better for drone flooding if that unusual subspecies happens to breed closer to purity on mating flights than the common subspecies of bees that we have in the US? Egyptian bees are thought to be able to breed pure within areas that are mixed with foreign subspecies of bees (commercial Carniolan bees).


----------



## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Litsinger said:


> If serious about pursuing this, I might suggest corresponding with Dr. Kefuss, who imported Intermissa stock to France in the 1990's to continue his resistance breeding work:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't know about Dr. Kefuss. I will definitely try to contact him. I have read about Intermissa being resistant to Varroa in a bee journal. But I didn't think they would be accepted well with beekeepers in the US since Intermissa is known to be aggressive. I do have some local bees here in central NC which are resistant to Varroa that likely are those "German Black" descendants (or Intermissa?) that people write about. They have a fair amount of dark thoracic haired drones.


----------



## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

HaplozygousNut said:


> I don't know if I would actually continue a breeding project with instrumental insemination. I have depression and so it makes it hard for me to do things. Instrumental insemination looks like a lot of work...


A bit more involved than your thinking here, went looking for this post GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees. and see you were there about five posts down. I say save your money and go for it


----------



## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

William Bagwell said:


> A bit more involved than your thinking here, went looking for this post GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees. and see you were there about five posts down. I say save your money and go for it


I appreciate the encouragement. I am curious what sorts of things I could do in a breeding project. I have thought about breeding for giant colonies that keep multiple queens!


----------



## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

William Bagwell said:


> AFAIK only semen can be imported, not live bees. Imagine the permitting for that would still be very involved, and expensive. Possible region exclusions, ie Europe might be possible but not Africa.


That sounds like the import laws of honeybees for Canada, not US. I remember ursa_minor from Canada writing recently about the importing bees to Canada.

I found an article that says:
_"Currently, the USA allows live honey bee importations from New Zealand and Canada, and germplasm importations from Australia, Bermuda, Canada, France, Great Britain, New Zealand, and Sweden (USDA n.d.). Germplasm from other sources can be used with USDA permission. " (Genetic past, present, and future of the honey bee (Apis mellifera) in the United States of America - Apidologie)_

I am not sure if that means germplasm can be imported to the US from France, Great Britain with or without a permit.


----------



## JB33 (Jul 27, 2021)

HaplozygousNut said:


> That sounds like the import laws of honeybees for Canada, not US. I remember Ursa_Minor from Canada writing something similar about the importing bees to Canada.
> 
> I found an article that says:
> _"Currently, the USA allows live honey bee importations from New Zealand and Canada, and germplasm importations from Australia, Bermuda, Canada, France, Great Britain, New Zealand, and Sweden (USDA n.d.). Germplasm from other sources can be used with USDA permission. " (Genetic past, present, and future of the honey bee (Apis mellifera) in the United States of America - Apidologie)_
> ...


When it comes to importing honey bee germplasm there are two regions. Approved regions, which you listed above, and unapproved regions, which would be any country not listed above. You do need a permit to import from those 7 countries listed above but anyone can get it. Importing from unapproved regions can only be done with special permit from the USDA. Such a permit can only be obtained by a government or research institution and the process is unbelievably difficult. Even Sue Coby and the folks at WSU had a very hard time getting approval.

I should also mention that that quote is slightly inaccurate as the US no longer allows import of live queens/bees from Canada.


----------



## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

JB33 said:


> When it comes to importing honey bee germplasm there are two regions. Approved regions, which you listed above, and unapproved regions, which would be any country not listed above. You do need a permit to import from those 7 countries listed above but anyone can get it. Importing from unapproved regions can only be done with special permit from the USDA. Such a permit can only be obtained by a government or research institution and the process is unbelievably difficult. Even Sue Coby and the folks at WSU had a very hard time getting approval.
> 
> I should also mention that that quote is slightly inaccurate as the US no longer allows import of live queens/bees from Canada.


Wow, thank you for the help!


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Isolated "Inland" bees with little history of being managed for human purposes
Intermissa would likely be a better choice with a proven track record after being relocated


https://www.researchgate.net/publication/288620065_Varroa_tolerance_in_France_of_Intermissa_bees_from_Tunisia_and_their_naturally_mated_descendants_1993-2004


----------



## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

HaplozygousNut said:


> That sounds like the import laws of honeybees for Canada, not US. I remember ursa_minor from Canada writing recently about the importing bees to Canada.
> 
> I found an article that says:
> _"Currently, the USA allows live honey bee importations from New Zealand and Canada, and germplasm importations from Australia, Bermuda, Canada, France, Great Britain, New Zealand, and Sweden (USDA n.d.). Germplasm from other sources can be used with USDA permission. " (Genetic past, present, and future of the honey bee (Apis mellifera) in the United States of America - Apidologie)_
> ...


William Bagwell, I thought you might have confused Canada's laws with the US's laws on importing honeybees. But from what JB33 just told me, I see you might have been right about the importation laws. It is too bad they don't allow importation of queens though. The mtDNA is inherited from the mother and not the father. There is the possibility that the mtDNA is imported for function and even maybe drone flooding if bees select for their own mtDNA on mating flights. Hopefully that is not the case.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

HaplozygousNut said:


> Wow, thank you for the help!


maybe you should try for a career in a University teaching bee stuff.
have a better track on the permits, have grad students to do some of the activities.
If you think Acidemia would be a fit for you.

GG


----------

