# Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)



## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

Human transportation of species into new habitats often has unforeseen and unfortunate side effects. Varroa can be managed with current knowledge and treatments, apparently with moderate risk.


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## cfalls (Nov 26, 2017)

I think that's an interesting idea.

Apis cerana is known to produce less honey, but I'm not sure if efficiency at pollination is known, even though that's the main money maker for beekeepers in the US. One would tend to assume that the smaller populations would require more colonies per acre, which would require more work. And if that's true, I doubt they'd be economically competitive, since varroa treatments are cheap and easy.

I can say first hand they're eager and gentle robbers. Saw them buzzing all around an outdoor bar in Bali, ignored completely by bartenders and patrons alike. From a distance this surprised me because I assumed they were some kind of hornet. Up close, they looked like a slightly miniaturized Carni. Had to look them up online to find out what they were.

Ah hah, here's a nice discussion of apis cerana for pollination:



> In Asia, A. cerana is regarded as an excellent crop pollinator for a large variety of fruit and vegetable crops, sometimes outperforming A. mellifera [27,118,119,120,121,122,123,124]. This is thought to be due to the fact that A. cerana begin foraging earlier in the day and cease later in the day, pollinating flowers for longer than A. mellifera, and also because A. cerana employ relatively larger numbers of pollen collectors (compared to nectar collectors) than A. mellifera [27,118,119,120,121,122].
> 
> A. cerana has been reported as pollinating fruit and nuts, vegetables, pulses, oilseeds, spices, coffee, as well as fibre and forage crops, and has been found especially important in pollinating cauliflower, onion, and okra in India (reviewed in [27,112,123,125]). Studies specifically undertaken to show the impact of A. cerana on crop yield and productivity showed that pollination by A. cerana increased fruit and seed set, increased the quality of fruit and seeds, and reduced premature fruit drop (reviewed in [27,112,125]). Apple, peach, plum, citrus, and strawberry all showed a marked increase in fruit set (10 to 112% increase) and weight (33 to 48% increase). Similar results were also shown for a broad range of vegetables, oil rape seed, sunflower, buckwheat, soybean, cotton (reviewed in [27]), and coffee [125].
> 
> ...


-- http://jeb.biologists.org/content/213/10/1659 section 9.1

This paper also has some funny discussion of colonies they made out of a mix of apis mellifera and apis cerana workers, including pictures of the wacky comb they drew, because science.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

cfalls said:


> I think that's an interesting idea.
> 
> Apis cerana is known to produce less honey, but I'm not sure if efficiency at pollination is known, even though that's the main money maker for beekeepers in the US. One would tend to assume that the smaller populations would require more colonies per acre, which would require more work. And if that's true, I doubt they'd be economically competitive, since varroa treatments are cheap and easy.
> 
> ...


That is funny cfalls! People have already tried mixing the two species in a colony! 

If the honey in this video is from Apis cerana, it looks like a good amount of honey was harvested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_08L5xGcxdY

I was hoping that certain subspecies of Apis cerana would actually have more populous colonies, like how Apis mellifera varies between subspecies. Apis mellifera lamarckii have small colonies compared to our common Italian honey bees, correct me if I am wrong.

I have read that in the United States the average honey harvest is 60 lb of honey per colony. That sounds little per colony. An average of, (give or take), 180 lb per colony a year seems more reasonable from what I've seen with our colonies and what I have read some beekeepers get (https://www.ars.usda.gov/southeast-...rials-of-russian-honey-bees-honey-production/). Our bees will swarm early in the season (February, March and early April), and so new beekeepers may not even be aware a colony has swarmed so early and by the next nectar flow the colony has recovered strength, right under the nose of the oblivious beginning beekeeper. That may be the reason why the average honey harvest here in the US is 60 lb, no? Our colonies here in North Carolina swarm often if kept in a one story ten frame box, not so different from African bees. They will send several after swarms, and then recover and do the same the next nectar flow if not prevented. I have noticed that later in the season during our strongest honey flows, the bees stop swarming and build up a populous colony and store a lot of honey, only swarming when out of room.

I even have a suspicion that the better honey production (25-30 kg per colony, 30-40 percent more honey than their native Moscow bee) (https://goldenbee.ge/en/info.htm) for Caucasian bees than the native German black bee in Moscow was because the native Moscow bees swarmed early in the season having built up in time for the early season nectar while the non-native Caucasian bees did not, having not built up early enough to take advantage of the early nectar source, and so the colony stayed intact to make a larger honey crop than the native subspecies of Moscow. I have noticed that of the colonies I have at our home, that I _think_ have a good percentage of Caucasian, build up sluggishly in the early season, missing the early nectar we get from maple trees in February. https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...ng-between-Carniolan-and-Caucasian-honey-bees 

I would like to breed for early build-up of the Caucasian bees, getting them locally adapted to our nectar flows, but I wonder why Caucasian bees have this sluggish early build-up trait (Bear in mind that I am assuming these few colonies I've had with these traits are Caucasian bees, I might be wrong and these bees I've worked with not be Caucasian bees.). Is it because the Caucasian bees come from an area with few cavities to swarm into, and so reproduction is not as important and survival and drone production more important?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I was wondering why the government has not brought in any Asian honey bees (Apis cerana) into the US. Apis cerana are already hardy against Varroa. 

Apis cerana are not very useful. They make little honey, abscond easily and are difficult to keep. Plus what other parasites come along... It's irrelevant as it's illegal.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> > I was wondering why the government has not brought in any Asian honey bees (Apis cerana) into the US. Apis cerana are already hardy against Varroa.
> 
> Apis cerana are not very useful. They make little honey, abscond easily and are difficult to keep. Plus what other parasites come along... It's irrelevant as it's illegal.


Have you actually tried the different subspecies of A. cerana? There may be drastic differences between the subspecies just as with the Western honey bee. 

It would be nice if the government could test a few different subspecies of Asian honey bees on an island or two.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

cfalls said:


> I think that's an interesting idea.
> 
> Apis cerana is known to produce less honey, but I'm not sure if efficiency at pollination is known, even though that's the main money maker for beekeepers in the US. One would tend to assume that the smaller populations would require more colonies per acre, which would require more work. And if that's true, I doubt they'd be economically competitive, since varroa treatments are cheap and easy.
> 
> ...


I was thinking that putting many Apis cerana colonies on a pallet would help to have less work for moving the colonies around for pollination of the almonds. I have read that almond pollination is a big source of income for beekeepers. The Asian honey bee might turn out to be great for almond pollination and be the "silver bullet" (hopefully) bee. I know that I have read from some books that there is no such thing as a "silver bullet" or perfect bee, but I can't stop hoping. lol


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

True... It would not be good to repeat something like the Lake Victoria Nile Perch introduction which killed a few hundred species of cichlids.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Victoria#Invasive_fish


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

The treatment free beekeepers have already found the apis solution. Now if they could just share their stock and make it work for everyone.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Now if they could just share their stock and make it work for everyone.

I sell treatment free survivor queens. I try to convince people not to buy them, and just find local survivors... I'm not the only one.

The whole reason we have Varroa is that cerana are not very productive so EHB were brought in where cerana were and the Varroa made the jump.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Yes, I have noticed that our honeybees do not die from varroa mites. Certain colonies may show signs of stress from varroa during the late summer when we have had a long, hot summer dearth starting when June is over and July comes. But even those colonies do not die through the winter, but rebound when February comes (maple nectar). We have pollen year round here, and bees will not breed much during the winter or summer even when pollen is available, but as soon as the maples bloom in February I see a lot of brood production and comb production. I have read that maples do not give nectar, but that they give pollen early in the season and so stimulate brood production, but I believe it is the nectar they give that actually starts brood production and swarming. I know we have pollen through the whole winter here in North Carolina because I have fed the bees thick sugar syrup through the winter and they bring pollen in and become active, starting foraging at 37F (which is also commonly written or known otherwise). If it is sunny and dry, bees will go out at lower temperatures, but if it has been drizzling, our bees won't go out at even 40F. Our bees here in North Carolina will forage almost everyday of winter except rainy days.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/media/2670/bfdj94-profitable-beekeeping-with-apis-cerana.pdf

Here is an interesting article about keeping Apis cerana in Japan. It says that Apis cerana make about a fourth of what European honey bees make in honey. That is better than I thought! He even says in the article that he doesn't see it as much of a disadvantage, but just have four times the number of Asian honey bee colonies than European honeybee colonies to compensate for the less honey production. Even with absconding it says it is not without reason that the Asian honey bees abscond. One disadvantage though is that the Asian honey bees he says go only a radius of 2 km, which is much less than the European honey bees.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

https://entnemdept.ifas.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/Apis_cerana.htm

Wow, here in this article it says that Apis cerana is sometimes considered superior than European honey bees for pollination for farms. The smaller foraging radius is said here to actually help with pollination for farming.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...n-A-cerana-cerana-workers-and-A_fig1_51399884
Here in this picture of Apis cerana cerana mixed in with Apis mellifera the two species of honeybees are all similar in size. A. cerana cerana from China might be good for honey production if they are that large like the European honey bees?


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Here in this website there is a range map of some new subspecies that have been discovered:
http://www.ilyoseoul.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=270314

It is interesting that the A. c. cerana has its range split from the west around northern India and east around China. I guess their range was recently split by the Himalayas.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OjIFRQ8Te8
Interesting how they split Apis cerana in the Spring (in the video linked above). These are called "box pile" hives, correct? The skewers go through the holes drilled in the sides of the hive to hold the combs in place.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Bee boxes sold in South Korea (Beautiful pictures of Asian honey bees.):
https://m.blog.naver.com/PostView.n...909&targetKeyword=&targetRecommendationCode=1


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

http://blog.daum.net/_blog/BlogType...cleno=1251&categoryId=67&regdt=20110425233838
Pictures of Apis cerana. The last picture in this blog is a European honeybee.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

HaplozygousNut said:


> Yes, I have noticed that our honeybees do not die from varroa mites.


Then why would you want to import an inferior bee and all of its diseases and problems?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Cerana was brought into the U.S. back in the early 1900's. Do some due diligence and find the records. They have numerous weaknesses that make them poor honey producers. They are ineffective pollinators on many of the temperate plant species we grow. They do have some interesting traits. It is highly likely that a cross-species hybrid will eventually be used to bring those traits over to our domestic honeybees.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Cerana and Millifera do not really cross-breed.
Since they have overlapped in Russian Far East, they had lots of time and chances to cross-breed.
Well, no viable off-spring was found so far.
I have supporting documentation but will not bother looking for it now.

All in all, the "Cerana solution" will be like the "fox solution" when foxes were brought to control the previously imported rabbits to Australia.
How it all ended we all know.
For sure we should know these facts before attempting more of the same again - it does not work and is harmful.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

psm1212 said:


> Then why would you want to import an inferior bee and all of its diseases and problems?


If kept differently from the way beekeepers do now in the US, the Asian honey bee may not be much inferior at all to the European honey bees. As the Japanese man in this article (http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/media/2670/bfdj94-profitable-beekeeping-with-apis-cerana.pdf), just have four more A. cerana hives for every one A. mellifera hive to make the same amount honey, since the Japanese man said the Asian honey bees make one fourth the amount of honey that an A. mellifera hive can make. I would think that lifting smaller boxes from the smaller A. cerana hives would be a bonus actually!


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> Cerana was brought into the U.S. back in the early 1900's. Do some due diligence and find the records. They have numerous weaknesses that make them poor honey producers. They are ineffective pollinators on many of the temperate plant species we grow. They do have some interesting traits. It is highly likely that a cross-species hybrid will eventually be used to bring those traits over to our domestic honeybees.


And may I ask what subspecies they brought in to the US to test? If you bring in African bees to the temperate parts of the US, would they thrive? I do not think they would. Or vice versa, bring the temperate European bees to the tropics, and those temperate bees do poorly. The same with bringing in a tropical or different climate A. cerana honey bee subspecies to our different climate in the US. It is good to know that we actually have tried the Asian honey bees here, thank you for telling me Fusion_power.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

GregV said:


> Cerana and Millifera do not really cross-breed.
> Since they have overlapped in Russian Far East, they had lots of time and chances to cross-breed.
> Well, no viable off-spring was found so far.
> I have supporting documentation but will not bother looking for it now.
> ...


That is true from what I read about cross breeding A. mellilfera and A. cerana. I read that A. cerana and A. mellifera were artificially inseminated without success. Some people even guessed that the Russian bees that were brought in were hybrids of A. cerana and A. mellifera, because Russian bees were brought in from the area where A. cerana and A. mellifera both live in the Russian Far East. 

But the gene editing may be able to introduce genes from A. cerana to A. melllifera...

Both foxes and rabbits were bad for Australia, rabbits more so, correct? The Myxomysoma virus was great from what I read on Wikipedia on controlling the European rabbits in Australia. They had to get a weakened form of the virus because the original strain/strains were too deadly to be able to spread well (the rabbit would die before it could spread the disease to other rabbits... lol)

A. cerana and A. mellifera are very similar from what I can tell. If we already have A. mellifera introduced here into the New World how different would A. cerana be? 

One thing I can think of bad with introducing A. cerana, other than bringing in new pests for A. mellifera, would be that A. cerana may be very adaptable and suck up much of the nectar sources that bumble bees and other similar native insects would feed on, competing with our native species. Asian honey bees may be more adaptable than European honey bees, and so be worse than the A. mellifera introduction to similar species of bees and animals occupying the same niche in the habitat, out competing them to extinction.

By introducing first the different Asian honey bee subspecies to an island or two, we can see how badly they affect the native bumble bees and other creatures that are native to the US.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

HaplozygousNut said:


> If kept differently from the way beekeepers do now in the US, the Asian honey bee may not be much inferior at all to the European honey bees. As the Japanese man in this article (http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/media/2670/bfdj94-profitable-beekeeping-with-apis-cerana.pdf), just have four more A. cerana hives for every one A. mellifera hive to make the same amount honey, since the Japanese man said the Asian honey bees make one fourth the amount of honey that an A. mellifera hive can make. I would think that lifting smaller boxes from the smaller A. cerana hives would be a bonus actually!


I think I am just missing something here. You have apis m and do not lose hives to varroa. Why would you want to manage 4X the colonies of apis c instead? They are 4X inferior to apis m.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

psm1212 said:


> I think I am just missing something here. You have apis m and do not lose hives to varroa. Why would you want to manage 4X the colonies of apis c instead? They are 4X inferior to apis m.


One good thing is that the A. cerana hives, being smaller, would be lighter than A. mellifera colonies, and so easier to move. And there are ways to manage bees without much actual management, just knowledge on when to split and when to super or nadir (what I like to do, because I want foundation-less hives). 

Asian honey bees are said to be hardy, pest resistant, and surviving where A. mellifera do poorly.
Quote from this website (Economic impact section):
http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/Apis_cerana.htm
"Many beekeepers are transitioning to Apis mellifera management because the average Apis cerana colony produces less honey than does the average Apis mellifera colony. However, In many parts of Asia, Apis mellifera can survive only under intense care and protection offered by the beekeeper, while the vast majority of Apis cerana colonies still live wild and naturally in balance with a vast array of predators, pest, and parasites (e.g., hornets, sun bears, Varroa). One example of this is that Apis mellifera must be treated with pesticides for Varroa control, whereas Apis cerana is a natural host of Varroa and does not require beekeeper intervention. Therefore, Apis cerana colonies can be used to produce organic honey."

These people succeed better with Asian honey bees than the European honey bees. So the people in the US may do better with the Asian honey bees than European honey bees. And the way beekeepers in the US keep bees with pesticides takes a lot of labor and money (applying the pesticides and paying for them). Having A. cerana would eliminate this problem because people don't believe it is needed, because the pests are native to that bee...


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

HaplozygousNut said:


> One good thing is that the A. cerana hives, being smaller, would be lighter than A. mellifera colonies, and so easier to move. And there are ways to manage bees without much actual management, just knowledge on when to split and when to super or nadir (what I like to do, because I want foundation-less hives).
> 
> Asian honey bees are said to be hardy, pest resistant, and surviving where A. mellifera do poorly.
> Quote from this website (Economic impact section):
> ...


Well, actually, on that website (http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/Apis_cerana.htm), it sounds like they are trying to raise European honey bees in the tropics of Southeast Asia. I'm guessing from the sun bears living down in Southeast Asia. They are just needing a different subspecies of A. mellifera. Beekeepers had the same problem in the tropics of South America, until they brought in the African honey bees. Southeast Asia has not brought in any African bees yet, have they? The people there could make a lot of money out of the productive African bees. It could help poor people make a living, no?


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Distinguishing between the Western (A. mellifera) and Asian (A. cerana) honey bees.
http://m.blog.daum.net/kwonst011/12403287?tp_nil_a=1


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

The people who have dealt with the little bastards hate them. They are some mean bees, maybe not as bad as A. M. Scutellata crosses known as AHB or "killer bees", but meaner than A. M. Mellifera (European Black Bees - usually meaner than Italians). Beekeepers in Australia get together to hunt them down and kill them.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Video of Asian honey bees in an apiary in Khabarovsk, Siberia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG2rcJpfzWo

They are dark with stunning white bands. I think in the video he also showed a hive of A. mellifera next to the Asian bee hive.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

kilocharlie said:


> The people who have dealt with the little bastards hate them. They are some mean bees, maybe not as bad as A. M. Scutellata crosses known as AHB or "killer bees", but meaner than A. M. Mellifera (European Black Bees - usually meaner than Italians). Beekeepers in Australia get together to hunt them down and kill them.


Hmm... that is different from what I have heard about Asian honey bees. You are the first I can remember saying that Asian honey bees are aggressive compared to A. mellifera. It might be that your Asian honey bees, now invasive in Australia, are a particularly aggressive type of Asian honey bee and your A. mellifera being particularly gentle strain. Like African bees being more aggressive than European bees. Though I have seen pictures of people going into African bee (Picture from Central America in a magazine.) hives without gloves... I believe the hybridization with Italian or other subspecies of bees with African bees was what really made them that aggressive. If I mix gene pools of queens I bought from breeders far away from here in North Carolina, I get "hot" hives the first generation. 

Here in this link :https://beejournal.ru/rodstvenniki-pchel-all/1298-kitajskaya-voskovaya-pchela
It says that their Asian honey bees are more gentle than their European honey bees. It also says that the Asian honey bees are very hardy in unfavorable conditions, and go out at -12 degrees celsius. That is hard to believe. Too cold! They'd freeze soon after getting out of the hive. It also says that the Asian honey bees in Kazansky district have hives 20 to 30 thousand individuals before winter. That is a lot.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

kilocharlie said:


> The people who have dealt with the little bastards hate them. They are some mean bees, maybe not as bad as A. M. Scutellata crosses known as AHB or "killer bees", but meaner than A. M. Mellifera (European Black Bees - usually meaner than Italians). Beekeepers in Australia get together to hunt them down and kill them.


Not at all aggressive.
It is the opposite - you are confusing something here.

Few beeks in Russian Far East are trying to keep the Cerana (as experimentation) - not easy and not much payback either.
The Cerana will abscond on you for any old reason - a significant practical problem.
Here is a quick video for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG2rcJpfzWo


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

HaplozygousNut said:


> ...... the Asian honey bees are very hardy in unfavorable conditions, and go out at -12 degrees celsius. That is hard to believe. Too cold! ...


Sure, it can be -12C in shade (as properly measured) and at the same time the dark surfaces exposed to the Sun can be quite warm - a typical case in March, for example. 
Sun hitting the dark bees also keeps them warm.
If bees need to quickly defecate in-and-out - they surely can and will do so.


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## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

Hi everyone,
I have spent time in the mountains of Nepal working with apis cerana cerana and apis cerana indica. They average 2 KG of honey per year. Would bee the same here in the US. They are not resistant to varroa mites. Beekeepers there treat,during non swarmy years. Most years the colonies swarm multiple times, reducing the mite pressure.( see Tom Seeleys research-small colonies,swarmy). Part of the reason russian bees are somewhat resistant-very swarmy bees.
Apis cerana is not the bee for us if you want to make a living, or even some honey for your family!:lookout:
besides being illegal. Our govt has better things to spend money on anyway.

Nick
gridleyhollow.com


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

funwithbees said:


> Hi everyone,
> I have spent time in the mountains of Nepal working with apis cerana cerana and apis cerana indica. ........
> 
> Nick
> gridleyhollow.com


Let us be clear however - Cerana population in Nepal and Cerana population in Russian Far East - these are very different, distinct populations in very different geographical regions and, in fact, *MAYBE *different Cerana subspecies.
Did anyone give a little think on that subject?

Just the same as A. m. Mellifera and A. m. Ligurica are different subspecies with different traits hailing from different historical regions - well known and accepted fact.
And so on....

Think of that a minute.

Regarding this:


> Part of the reason russian bees are somewhat resistant-very swarmy bees.


Carnica bees then should be as resistant as those swarmy Russians.
Hint, hint...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

HaplozygousNut said:


> Video of Asian honey bees in an apiary in Khabarovsk, Siberia:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG2rcJpfzWo
> 
> They are dark with stunning white bands. I think in the video he also showed a hive of A. mellifera next to the Asian bee hive.


Looks like I just re-posted a link to this exact video.

Well, then here is a different video about Far Eastern Cerana - directly from Japan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GWB4Deche0

Not much defensiveness to speak of, on the video.
No smoker in sight even.

From the video author:


> This pile box type is for Apis Ceranae. They stock less honey than Apis Mellifera,so we can harvest honey once a year.
> I don't know about standard measures,but 250mm × 250mm × 150mm for one box is the best size from my experience.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is more Cerana to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq6-TIhjXok&pbjreload=10

How do I know?
Because Cerana are ventilating IN, not ventilating OUT.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

as an aside, there is some documentation showing about 50 geographic races of Apis Cerana. I'm not looking it up, but if you choose to do some delving you can find it.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

kilocharlie said:


> The people who have dealt with the little bastards hate them. They are some mean bees, maybe not as bad as A. M. Scutellata crosses known as AHB or "killer bees", but meaner than A. M. Mellifera (European Black Bees - usually meaner than Italians). Beekeepers in Australia get together to hunt them down and kill them.


I recently visited a number of beekeeprs in Vietnam. Outside hanoi they only keep Asian bees.

From their reports honey production is not bad. They only use single hives - keeping the broodnest small to avoid swarming.

The bees I was shown were very quiet bees - we opened many hives with nil protection.

I would not like to see them spreading in Australia ( we had/have some up north)

We do OK with our European bees.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

GregV said:


> Sure, it can be -12C in shade (as properly measured) and at the same time the dark surfaces exposed to the Sun can be quite warm - a typical case in March, for example.
> Sun hitting the dark bees also keeps them warm.
> If bees need to quickly defecate in-and-out - they surely can and will do so.


Agreed. Going out for cleansing flights probably do not have to sustain themselves very long at that cold temperature since they are going right back into the hive afterwards. I think there must be someway that they exaggerated because -12C is impossibly low for honey bees to even come out without freezing within a couple minutes. How could they come up with that?

Even though Asian honey bees are good at fighting off Vespa mandarinia I don't think that means they are aggressive to us. That is a very specific defensiveness, and is different from attacking bears or humans. Videos of Asian honeybees defending against hornets:
https://blog.naver.com/vespa777/220335018393 (It is beautiful to watch how the Asian honeybees are alert and agile, retreating when they become alone. Our A. mellifera colonies attack no matter what, even when they are alone against a hornet. That is brave, but they get killed and feed the hornet...)

https://blog.naver.com/vespa777/220487270693

I believe what *kilocharlie* says about having aggressive A. cerana where he is in Australia. You may also have especially gentle A. mellifera that you are comparing to though, no? Those are good bees to have of course!


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

funwithbees said:


> Hi everyone,
> I have spent time in the mountains of Nepal working with apis cerana cerana and apis cerana indica. They average 2 KG of honey per year. Would bee the same here in the US. They are not resistant to varroa mites. Beekeepers there treat,during non swarmy years. Most years the colonies swarm multiple times, reducing the mite pressure.( see Tom Seeleys research-small colonies,swarmy). Part of the reason russian bees are somewhat resistant-very swarmy bees.
> Apis cerana is not the bee for us if you want to make a living, or even some honey for your family!:lookout:
> besides being illegal. Our govt has better things to spend money on anyway.
> ...


In this article it says that in China the Asian honey bees yield on average 15 to 20 KG of honey annually: https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/1989/01/Apidologie_0044-8435_1989_20_1_ART0002.pdf

Of course as I wrote before on this topic, A. mellifera are supposed to make more than the often quoted 50-60 lb of honey a year, so 15-20 KG is still much less than what European honey bees can make in a year, but just have 4 times the amount of hives to compensate. Now that I have thought about it, because Asian honey bees have a smaller foraging range, you would need more apiaries for Asian honey bees than European honey bees. That might be harder to deal with since you have to visit more apiaries. Maybe it could work out to raise the two species of honey bees in the same apiary to get different types of forage (Asian honeybees getting sparse forage while European honeybees getting the abundant foraging areas.). I think it would be easier to move smaller Asian honey bee colonies than very heavy European honey bee colonies.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

GregV said:


> Let us be clear however - Cerana population in Nepal and Cerana population in Russian Far East - these are very different, distinct populations in very different geographical regions and, in fact, *MAYBE *different Cerana subspecies.
> Did anyone give a little think on that subject?
> 
> Just the same as A. m. Mellifera and A. m. Ligurica are different subspecies with different traits hailing from different historical regions - well known and accepted fact.
> ...


Yes, I wondered also if the A. cerana cerana in the western side of the Himalayas were different from the ones on the eastern side, too. 

Actually the bees with Carniolan traits that I have worked with are very good for mite resistance and frugality through the summer here. What I think are Carniolans are the ones that propolize less and shrink colony size through dearth and build up rapidly in early spring/latewinter. I am not certain yet that the bees with those traits are Carniolan though. Could be Carpathian or Macedonian, too.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

funwithbees said:


> Hi everyone,
> I have spent time in the mountains of Nepal working with apis cerana cerana and apis cerana indica. They average 2 KG of honey per year. Would bee the same here in the US. They are not resistant to varroa mites. Beekeepers there treat,during non swarmy years. Most years the colonies swarm multiple times, reducing the mite pressure.( see Tom Seeleys research-small colonies,swarmy). Part of the reason russian bees are somewhat resistant-very swarmy bees.
> Apis cerana is not the bee for us if you want to make a living, or even some honey for your family!:lookout:
> besides being illegal. Our govt has better things to spend money on anyway.
> ...


It might be that it is the Russian-Korean haplotype varroa mite that is causing those Apis cerana in Nepal to die off. From what I read the Korean (Russian) haplotype of Varroa destructor are the most virulent Varroa destructor. It could be that those Apis cerana subspecies in Nepal are not resistant to the Korean haplotype Varroa mite like the Apis cerana koreana or Apis cerana ussuriensis (the Russian subspecies).
https://newzealandecology.org/nzje/2294.pdf


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## hagane (Aug 15, 2015)

HaplozygousNut said:


> http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/media/2670/bfdj94-profitable-beekeeping-with-apis-cerana.pdf
> 
> Here is an interesting article about keeping Apis cerana in Japan. It says that Apis cerana make about a fourth of what European honey bees make in honey. That is better than I thought! He even says in the article that he doesn't see it as much of a disadvantage, but just have four times the number of Asian honey bee colonies than European honeybee colonies to compensate for the less honey production. Even with absconding it says it is not without reason that the Asian honey bees abscond. One disadvantage though is that the Asian honey bees he says go only a radius of 2 km, which is much less than the European honey bees.


Getting 1/4 the honey production would bankrupt us. 

The honey is what finances the pet hoarding of bees. That sounds terrible. 

You know its funny that having bees and hoarding them is the one type of animal that you can hoard without risking having hundreds of them have the municipalities throw you out.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

hagane said:


> Getting 1/4 the honey production would bankrupt us.
> 
> The honey is what finances the pet hoarding of bees. That sounds terrible.
> 
> You know its funny that having bees and hoarding them is the one type of animal that you can hoard without risking having hundreds of them have the municipalities throw you out.


Very funny hugane! Honey is what finances our pet bees! That is very true! 

Honey is not the only way of making money with honey bees, ...though 33-44 lbs of surplus honey annually from each Apis cerana hive is nothing to sniff at, especially if your Apis melllifera are dying from pests such as Varroa mites. 

From what I have read Apis cerana are very good for pollination of crops. They are said to forage at cooler temperatures, earlier in the morning, and later in the evening compared to the common European honey bees. Also, because Apis cerana have a smaller foraging range I have read that that might help with pollination, too, because Apis cerana won't go far away looking for a better foraging source than the nearby crops you want them to pollinate. Since the Asian honey bees are resistant to Varroa, they would need much less maintenance, but still give profit from almond pollination in the California Central Valley.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

I read through all of this thread and forgive me if I missed the discussion on it but it would seem to me that importation of Apis Cerana would present and extremely high risk........probably so high as to not make it NOT worth the risk of also importing the Tropilaelaps mite which would almost certainly be disastrous to say the least for the North American and South American beekeeping industry.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Live Oak said:


> .... importation of Apis Cerana would present and extremely high risk.........


Agreed and this already has been offered above several times.

But not only that - authorities will not allow it anyway, pretty obvious case; so the talk is pretty much about nothing.

Why even go into such an adventure when currently present Apis mm populations are already approaching to Apis cc in Varroa mite resistance. 
This Cerana import possibility, while a curiosity, is not really useful in the present context.
People should just focus on problems at hand.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Live Oak said:


> I read through all of this thread and forgive me if I missed the discussion on it but it would seem to me that importation of Apis Cerana would present and extremely high risk........probably so high as to not make it NOT worth the risk of also importing the Tropilaelaps mite which would almost certainly be disastrous to say the least for the North American and South American beekeeping industry.


Here on this website about Tropilaelaps mites it says that to ship bees infected with Tropilaelaps to places not yet infected with Tropilaelaps you send them as package bees and the Tropilaelaps die of not having brood to feed on. Tropilaelaps are different from Varroa in that they have to have brood to feed on and soon die without it.
https://entnemdept.ifas.ufl.edu/creatures/MISC/BEES/Tropilaelaps.htm 
Quote from website "Management" section:
"Strict monitoring programs have been established throughout the world to prevent further spread of Tropilaelaps beyond its native range. Any transportation of honey bees from an area infested with Tropilaelaps to a region that does not have Tropilaelaps should be done using packages (adult bees only- no comb) rather than established colonies (Figure 3). These packages should be stored away from any honey bee colonies for a minimum of two days. Following a two day hold, any Tropilaelaps that may have been transported within the package will be dead because there is no brood in a package to support mite feeding."

I would worry more about whether Apis cerana could harm any of our native species of bumble bees or other creatures that have similar habits as honeybees do. Of course if the government ever does import Apis cerana, I think it would be a good idea to give Apis cerana a trial on an island to see what effects come about with our native species.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

GregV said:


> Sure, it can be -12C in shade (as properly measured) and at the same time the dark surfaces exposed to the Sun can be quite warm - a typical case in March, for example.
> Sun hitting the dark bees also keeps them warm.
> If bees need to quickly defecate in-and-out - they surely can and will do so.


Also, maybe the Asian honey bees disengage their flight muscles to their wings and vibrate their flight muscles to warm their bodies up in cold weather. I heard about bumbles doing this, and so bumble bees are the or one of the first bees to be out foraging in the cold spring mornings. Maybe this is the reason why bumble bee species are successful in the mountains. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumblebee#Chill-coma_temperature

Asian honey bees are said to survive freezing better than European bees (http://barnsleybeekeepers.org.uk/species.html)
Quote from the website: 
"In fact it is reported that A. cerana can survive short spells at freezing point - at which point A. mellifera would have long since died."


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>A. cerana can survive short spells at freezing point - at which point A. mellifera would have long since died.

My Apis mellifera have to survive MONTHS of freezing weather. Often Sub-zero F weather. They are not only surviving SHORT spells, but LONG spells. Whoever said that A. mellifera would die in short spells of freezing knows nothing about A. mellifera in freezing weather.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

To get meaningful content, I'd run the question past Dr. Tom Rinderer if he is still at the Baton Rouge federal bee research laboratory. He's the guy any new genetic bee stock coming into the country had to go through, usually in the form of drone semen or eggs, to be isolated on an island off the coast >10 miles for at least 2 years.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> >A. cerana can survive short spells at freezing point - at which point A. mellifera would have long since died.
> 
> My Apis mellifera have to survive MONTHS of freezing weather. Often Sub-zero F weather. They are not only surviving SHORT spells, but LONG spells. Whoever said that A. mellifera would die in short spells of freezing knows nothing about A. mellifera in freezing weather.


No, I did not mean that European bees cannot go through winters. I meant the Asian honey bees as individuals can survive freezing while an individual European bee would die before they get close to freezing. It might be that Asian honey bees have antifreeze of some type.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Post by msl about the dangers of introducing Apis cerana to America:


msl said:


> Feral EHB's competition for nesting sites led to the extinction of our native parrot, the carolina parakeet that once ranged NY to FL to CO in flocks of 100s even 1,000s of birds,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Could the death of the American chestnut be a factor in the Carolina parakeet's death? The chestnut blight was discovered in 1904, and Carolina parakeets were already disappearing before then. I know that Passenger pigeons died out because of the American chestnut dying off.








American chestnut - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Edit:
The American chestnut was suffering before 1904 from Ink disease:


when did american chestnuts start dying - Google Search


_
"Mature American chestnuts have been virtually extinct for decades. The tree's demise started with something called ink disease in *the early 1800s*, which steadily killed chestnut in the southern portion of its range. "_


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> The treatment free beekeepers have already found the apis solution. Now if they could just share their stock and make it work for everyone.


AMEN!


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Struttinbuck said:


> AMEN!


The treatment free beekeeper's bees may only work locally. The treatment free beekeeper's bees I think are feral strains of bees that breed pure to their strain. So if these feral strains of Varroa resistant bees are brought outside of the strain's range then it could have a hard time finding other bees to mate with of it's own strain. 

My treat free bees grew stronger resistance each year from when I first got my honeybees. It took about 4 years to get full resistance or close to it. Our bees still have the "K" wings of tracheal mites every now and then, though not as bad as before they got resistant. The "K" wings might be from using foundation that has larger than natural cell size. I have had bees in top-bar hives for a few years without any foundation and I don't remember those getting the "K" wings.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

Well lets just mix all the bees up together , destroy all the different species and just have one kind of bee! Then when the next genetically modified virus comes out. It will utterly destroy every bee on the planet because there is only one kind of bee.
Thinking of culture before health and wellness ???


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

HaplozygousNut said:


> Post by msl about the dangers of introducing Apis cerana to America:
> 
> Could the death of the American chestnut be a factor in the Carolina parakeet's death? The chestnut blight was discovered in 1904, and Carolina parakeets were already disappearing before then. I know that Passenger pigeons died out because of the American chestnut dying off.
> 
> ...


The American Chestnut mainly through the appalachias. Not west of the Mississippi


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## Taraxacumseeds (Dec 29, 2021)

I have been wondering about A. cerana too. Will definitely keep a couple of hives of A.cerana when it is legally available in the U.S.



HaplozygousNut said:


> Hello. I was wondering why the government has not brought in any Asian honey bees (Apis cerana) into the US. Apis cerana are already hardy against Varroa. Would the Asian Honey bee not be good for almond pollination?
> 
> People complain about bees being hard to keep alive because of Varroa, so Apis cerana may be a good solution to that problem. Of course there are dangers to bringing in Apis cerana, such as introducing Tropilaelaps spp. of mites, but I have read that if you cage the queen, and keep the colony broodless long enough, the Tropilaelaps mites cannot survive long because the mites cannot bite through the exoskeleton of the adult honeybee, and so needs bee larvae to feed on (Tropilaelaps spp.). Maybe in that way they can import Asian Honey bees without bringing the Tropilaelaps into the US. The Russian bees were first brought into an island near Louisiana, to isolate them. The government could try that and see if there are any pests or diseases from the Asian Honey bees that would harm the Western Honeybees.
> 
> I have read that in South Korea, where Tropilaelaps are now living, the beekeepers will overwinter their hives in colder areas to keep the Tropilaelaps infestation from being bad. You would have to get a subspecies of Apis cerana adapted to a climate similar to ours (maybe the Japanese or Far East Russian subspecies or a mountain strain.) and that keeps a large populous colony. Since Apis cerana have much smaller colonies than the Western Honey bees, I thought for almond pollination just keeping triple or more of the colonies on specially designed pallets as they do now with Western Honey bees here in the US for pollination would make up for the smaller colony sizes of Asian Honey bees.


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## Taraxacumseeds (Dec 29, 2021)

Michael, I will bet you $1000 if your Apis mellifera can survive sub-zero F for 24 hours



Michael Bush said:


> > A. cerana can survive short spells at freezing point - at which point A. mellifera would have long since died.
> 
> 
> My Apis mellifera have to survive MONTHS of freezing weather. Often Sub-zero F weather. They are not only surviving SHORT spells, but LONG spells. Whoever said that A. mellifera would die in short spells of freezing knows nothing about A. mellifera in freezing weather.


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## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

GregV said:


> Let us be clear however - Cerana population in Nepal and Cerana population in Russian Far East - these are very different, distinct populations in very different geographical regions and, in fact, *MAYBE *different Cerana subspecies.
> Did anyone give a little think on that subject?
> 
> Just the same as A. m. Mellifera and A. m. Ligurica are different subspecies with different traits hailing from different historical regions - well known and accepted fact.
> ...


Russians are not resistant either .


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## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

HaplozygousNut said:


> Agreed. Going out for cleansing flights probably do not have to sustain themselves very long at that cold temperature since they are going right back into the hive afterwards. I think there must be someway that they exaggerated because -12C is impossibly low for honey bees to even come out without freezing within a couple minutes. How could they come up with that?
> 
> Even though Asian honey bees are good at fighting off Vespa mandarinia I don't think that means they are aggressive to us. That is a very specific defensiveness, and is different from attacking bears or humans. Videos of Asian honeybees defending against hornets:
> Hornet Archive : 네이버 블로그 (It is beautiful to watch how the Asian honeybees are alert and agile, retreating when they become alone. Our A. mellifera colonies attack no matter what, even when they are alone against a hornet. That is brave, but they get killed and feed the hornet...)
> ...


they don' t do well fighting the hornets, per personal experience. You can't believe everything you read on the web


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

funwithbees said:


> they don' t do well fighting the hornets, per personal experience. You can't believe everything you read on the web


I thought they might be exaggerating about the A. cerana's superior fighting skills vs. A. mellifera's fighting skills! We already have Japanese giant hornets invasive in the Western US. I read that one Giant Japanese hornet in North America they tested genetically was similar to the Japanese population, and a second hornet they tested genetically was similar to the Korean population. So we could have more than just one introduction of Japanese Giant hornets.

Hopefully our A. mellifera in North America will not do too badly to fight off Giant Japanese hornet attacks.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Taraxacumseeds said:


> I have been wondering about A. cerana too. Will definitely keep a couple of hives of A.cerana when it is legally available in the U.S.


Yes, that would be cool if we had another kind of honeybee in the US. But I am now more worried about what extinctions the A. cerana might cause if introduced to North America. I would worry less if it was Europe, because Europe has very low diversity in animals, but North America has many more kinds of animals that could go extinct from A. cerana competition.



Taraxacumseeds said:


> Michael, I will bet you $1000 if your Apis mellifera can survive sub-zero F for 24 hours


In Nebraska during 2019 there was a day where it was -14F in the night and 0F in the day (Omaha, NE Weather History | Weather Underground). So the local bees of Nebraska where Michael Bush is should be able to survive below 0F for 24 hours. And the local bees in Nebraska ought to have some extra tolerance in case when an unusually cold Winter happens.

I have read in a bee magazine of bees in the Catskill mountains of New York surviving -114F. But that may not be true because New York doesn't get that cold during the Winter, and the mountains there are low in elevation. That article said that the bees can survive exposed through Winters as cold as Michigan because their hairs are as good as Goose down to insulate. But cold wind will chill the exposed cluster if the bee cluster is without a wind break (such as nesting in an evergreen tree?), and the outside bees will drop out of the cluster and die.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

Everybody thinks the states is a big F Fest..


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## Taraxacumseeds (Dec 29, 2021)

HaplozygousNut said:


> Yes, that would be cool if we had another kind of honeybee in the US. But I am now more worried about what extinctions the A. cerana might cause if introduced to North America. I would worry less if it was Europe, because Europe has very low diversity in animals, but North America has many more kinds of animals that could go extinct from A. cerana competition.
> 
> 
> In Nebraska during 2019 there was a day where it was -14F in the night and 0F in the day (Omaha, NE Weather History | Weather Underground). So the local bees of Nebraska where Michael Bush is should be able to survive below 0F for 24 hours. And the local bees in Nebraska ought to have some extra tolerance in case when an unusually cold Winter happens.
> ...


Apis cerana would compete with A. mellifera for nectar if introduced. These two Apis species have different niches so they should complement each other.

I can see -14F air temperature in Nebraska, but bees can not sustain temperature this low. It would be interesting to know the temperature of the bees on the outside of the cluster. Plant biologists can expose seedlings to various temperature to see what is the lowest temperature a seedling can handle., but it is cruelty to animals if somebody conduct a similar study on bees.

-114F in NY should be a typo.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Studies have *already* been conducted to see how bees handle extreme cold. Here is one from the USDA in 1951:








The Thermology of Wintering Honey Bee Colonies


By CHARLES D. OWENS, Agricultural Engineering Research Division, Agricultural Research Service A colony of honey bees (Apis mellifera L.) does not hibernate in winter. The bees form a cluster, clinging tightly together on the combs in the hive. The outer bees form an insulating shell that...




www.beesource.com





Some parts of that study involved putting hives into a freezer at -40F for extended periods. Bees can survive cold fairly well if they have adequate stores. But there may be a greater likelyhood of nosema, and and at those temperatures raising brood is unlikely.

The bees take turns being on the outer edges of the cluster.


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## Taraxacumseeds (Dec 29, 2021)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Studies have *already* been conducted to see how bees handle extreme cold. Here is one from the USDA in 1951:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link! Honey bees are indeed superorganism when they are in a cluster. They can do amazing things when working as a single unit. I can totally understand that bees in a hive can tolerate extreme temperatures because we know people in Alaska keep bees. 

Please share the info if you or another member find information about low temperature tolerance of an individual bee or a cluster without the protection of a hive. Thanks!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Taraxacumseeds said:


> Please share the info if you or another member find information about low temperature tolerance of an individual bee or a cluster without the protection of a hive. Thanks!


See my post in this thread for a study link about bees losing control of their muscles at particular low temperatures:








Temperature effect on foraging bees


When the temperature is close to 50 can bees over exert themselves foraging and then die? I have a number of dead or dying bees outside my hive with pollen. The temperature here now is 51. I know that bees are not active below 50. A good number are active and returning ( seemingly healthy)...




www.beesource.com





They are measuring when the individual bees on the edge of the cluster get so cold that they can no longer hold on, and fall off the cluster. At that point, presumably they die.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Taraxacumseeds said:


> Apis cerana would compete with A. mellifera for nectar if introduced. These two Apis species have different niches so they should complement each other.
> 
> I can see -14F air temperature in Nebraska, but bees can not sustain temperature this low. It would be interesting to know the temperature of the bees on the outside of the cluster. Plant biologists can expose seedlings to various temperature to see what is the lowest temperature a seedling can handle., but it is cruelty to animals if somebody conduct a similar study on bees.
> 
> -114F in NY should be a typo.


Sorry, I thought you meant the bees surviving as a cluster below zero F for 24 hours. 
Yes, I don't think a European bee (A. mellifera) would survive anywhere close to that low temperature. Even the Asian honeybee probably wouldn't survive below 0F. Did you think that the Asian honeybee survives below zero F? What I read was that the Asian honeybees survive below 0 Celsius for 24 hours, not below 0F.

There might be an Asian honeybee that can survive lower though. I have experimented with setting Wood roaches (Parcoblatta species) outside on a shelf on a front porch during the cold Polar vortex winter we had (one night went as low as 7F) years ago. The Parcoblatta nymphs that I caught wild would survive fine down to the teens F, but the nymphs I had raised indoors would not survive that cold. So they must have gradually gotten more antifreeze or something like that as they got used to the cold, and the ones indoors did not develop enough of that antifreeze? 

Also, the Asian honeybees from the far northern part of their range in northern China and Russia might develop more antifreeze, and so survive even colder temperatures as individual bees than other kinds of Asian honeybees because they are from a colder place.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Asian honeybees (Apis cerana javana) are invasive in Australia:


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> as an aside, there is some documentation showing about 50 geographic races of Apis Cerana. I'm not looking it up, but if you choose to do some delving you can find it.


I found an article about 30 or more possible races of Asian honeybees.
Page 4:


https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2001/01/m1105.pdf


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