# Culling drone brood



## jmgi

Was just pondering something concerning drone brood and varroa, instead of removing sealed drone combs and putting them in the freezer overnight, wouldn't it be easier to go through the brood nest and scrape off the drone cell cappings with a scratcher and just put them back in the hive immediately. Seems like the bees would remove the immature drone brood and immature mites, if there are any, and toss them. You would probably have to do this soon after the drone cells are capped to make sure that you are getting very immature drone brood and not brood ready to emerge.


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## mike haney

this works fine if you have one hive but is not very efficient, thus the developement of "drone frames" that have the size that encourages the queen to lay all drones. left alone she will lay drones in the corners and small sections of ever frame in the brood nest. every time you pull all the frames in the brood nest you run the risk of injury or worse to the queen. she is surprisingly delicate. good luck,mike


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## StevenG

I wonder about the act of scraping the cappings off the drone cells, thus causing the bees to remove and eject the drone brood. What of the mites in the drone cells, when the brood is removed? Would they die, or would some of them move to a new host? Seems like the idea of removing drone frames and freezing them is to capture adult female mites, and dispose of them.


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## jmgi

mike haney said:


> this works fine if you have one hive but is not very efficient, thus the developement of "drone frames" that have the size that encourages the queen to lay all drones. left alone she will lay drones in the corners and small sections of ever frame in the brood nest. every time you pull all the frames in the brood nest you run the risk of injury or worse to the queen. she is surprisingly delicate. good luck,mike


 I agree with you on it being more work, but putting in the "drone frames" does'nt necessarily mean that the queen will lay all the drone eggs in just those frames, she probably will continue to lay them here and there throughout the brood nest anyway. I will say I am not speaking from experience here with drone frames, but I find it hard to believe that it works that easy. Besides, if a queen is spending all her time laying drone eggs on that frame, she is not laying as many workers which should be her goal and ours. IMO, in a heavily mite infested hive, drone frames "may" help get things under control somewhat, by providing plenty of drone cells for the mites to jump into.


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## Michael Bush

I'd pull them or shake them out if you do that. The foundress mite often survives the removal...


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## jmgi

Michael Bush said:


> I'd pull them or shake them out if you do that. The foundress mite often survives the removal...


 I knew that was too easy a fix, thanks Michael.


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## mike haney

jmgi says"IMO, in a heavily mite infested hive, drone frames "may" help get things under control somewhat, by providing plenty of drone cells for the mites to jump into." 
this is the crux of the mite problem. there is no magic bullet. there are a number of thigs that help, but by themselves they are inadequate. thus the acronym IPM- integrated pest management. good luck,mike


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## Kieck

The trick to thinking about drone frames (or any other pest treatment, really) is to remember that you're trying to keep the number of pests under some level (threshold), not necessarily eliminate every pest.


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## jmgi

I agree that multiple management techniques are required for natural varroa control, but I'm just not sold on the drone frame idea, seems that the risk/reward balance is not tipped in our favor with frames that encourage drone production in excess of what would be natural, even with mites preference for drone brood. I hope I don't sound like a know-it-all, I'm just trying to learn more about varroa's characteristics from anyone who has something to add to the discussion. The last time I had bees before last year was back in the late 70's, pre-varroa days. So, I have alot of catching up to do with the current problems in the honey bee world.


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## Michael Bush

You guys want to work too hard. I'll stick with my "magic bullet".


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## sqkcrk

jmgi said:


> wouldn't it be easier to go through the brood nest and scrape off the drone cell cappings with a scratcher and just put them back in the hive immediately. Seems like the bees would remove the immature drone brood and immature mites, if there are any, and toss them.


A friend of mine who runs about 1,000 colonies carrys a large knife w/ him while working his bees. When he comes across a capped drone comb he slices the cappings like he was going to extract the comb and then he knocks the drone pupae out onto the ground. Sometimes he will leave the comb standing up against the colony for the skunks to feed on. He likes skunks. They remind him of his youth, when he used to trap and skin them.

Certainly it interrupts the varroas' reproductive cycle.


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## Ben Brewcat

I just keep a couple empty frames in the drone areas of each colony. Especially in the spring, once they've drawn out drone comb in them and laid it up, I cut it out and huck it to the chickens before the drones emerge. It's like baiting and freezing, but without having to do the freezing/returning bit. Works great for IPM varroa reduction.


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## sqkcrk

Randy Oliver had a method of harvesting drone comb as a means of varroa control. He had deep frames w/ a bar one third (I think) way down, so foundation was only in the upper part. This frame was put in the third or fourth position so after he cut out the capped drone comb it would get rebuilt. He harvested the drone comb from these frames and I'm not sure what he did w/ it.

I say used to because i don't know if he is still doing this. He also sugar dusted his hives for varroa control.


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## ACBEES

I read Randy's article on that. he melts the drone comb down. Says it's a great source of new wax.

I considered that method of mite control, but am going to try foundationless first. I liked Michael Bush't comments about shorter capping times and shorter post capping times with natural cell. He says it does a good job of interrupting the mite life cycle.


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## winevines

jmgi said:


> instead of removing sealed drone combs and putting them in the freezer overnight, wouldn't it be easier to go through the brood nest and scrape off the drone cell cappings with a scratcher and just put them back in the hive immediately. .


I did this all last year because I could not get organized with the freezing regimen. It is more time consuming and a little bit gross. I found that I had to wack the crap out of the frame to get the drones all out- several times on each side. On a positive note, it gives you a great look at how many mites you have in the drone cells.


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## concrete-bees

just find an old extractor for cheap - just a 2 framer and "exract" the drones from the cells - !!!!! 

never done it but sure beats beating them out !


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## kldreyer

does anyone make drone comb for medium supers, or should I cut down the deep?


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## concrete-bees

Brushy Mt - they do but they came up short -- id call them and see if they got the part that they were waiting on - then order !!!


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## winevines

kldreyer said:


> does anyone make drone comb for medium supers, or should I cut down the deep?


Put in an empty medium frame. They will build drone brood. 
Cut it out every 21 days or less


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## deknow

all of these methods require that the hive not be "drone right" to begin with.

the bees want _some_ number of drones. using all worker foundation makes the very difficult for the bees (hence drone comb in the honey supers if there is no excluder/honeycap, drones between boxes). if a full foundationless frame is filled with drones, your colony is not drone right.

when a colony is not drone right, they will try to correct things the best they can (drone comb between boxes, drone comb where the cells are supple enough to rework). if you let the bees raise the drones to a capped stage, they have put in a huge amount of resources (drawn comb, raised and fed the drones through capping, etc). drones are big and require a lot of food before capping...and once you uncap them, cut them out, feed them to chickens, etc...the bees _still_ want those drones (as they are trying to be drone right), and will start over again given any oppurtunity.

if you put in a foundationless frame into the brood nest and the bees quickly fill it with drone comb (and brood...not honey), this is a sure sign that the bees are not drone right.

deknow


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## winevines

deknow said:


> all of these methods require that the hive not be "drone right" to begin with.
> if you put in a foundationless frame into the brood nest and the bees quickly fill it with drone comb (and brood...not honey), this is a sure sign that the bees are not drone right.
> 
> deknow


I use the green plastic drone comb in my full hives, and it takes quite a while at first for them to draw it out and then use it, but they do fill it up on a regular basis in the season. Slower in Spring and Fall. Luckily my hives are healthy and doing well with no winter losses of the big hives so I gotta assume they have the equillibrium they need. 

I am not sure of your premise that if they fill with drone comb they are not drone right but maybe that is more applicable to using foundationless frames which is what you are referring to. I have less experience using that method, but from what I see in the mediums I am using it in, they are building those out as drone comb right now and I expect will lay drones in it to the same extent that they use the green comb in the deeps. For what its worth, I learned this method from Kim Flottom.


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## peterloringborst

deknow said:


> when a colony is not drone right


Drone right? Did you just make this up?


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## Duboisi

Speaking as a beginner.

Would it not be sufficient to place a top bar no starter or anything somewhere at the end of the brood-nest, and then cut the comb off when it's full of drone-brood?

If someone has chicken, they'll probably love the protein source if they get some comb with drone-brood.


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## winevines

Duboisi said:


> Speaking as a beginner.
> 
> Would it not be sufficient to place a top bar no starter or anything somewhere at the end of the brood-nest, and then cut the comb off when it's full of drone-brood?
> 
> If someone has chicken, they'll probably love the protein source if they get some comb with drone-brood.


Duboisi
Exactly... that is what I recommended in this thread- but I did not make this idea up- Personally I heard Kim Flottom recommend it, especially for folks with medium hive bodies. 

Deknow just added in to this thread some theory most of have never heard of about hives being drone right. Even if there is truth to it, the idea of rearing drones for mite control appears to be pretty universally accepted method. Just make sure you keep ahead of your cut out schedule or else you risk rearing mites.


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## RayMarler

I have 6 hives, all are double 8 frame deeps.
I have green drone comb in 5 hives (it just happened that way).
All 5 of those hives, no "stray" drone comb is drawn between boxes.
In the 1 box without green drone comb, "stray" drone comb is being built between the boxes, a lot of it.

I have spare green drone combs in box on rail in yard, on my spare boxes rail.
I remove sealed drone comb and just set in spare box outside, and replace with one that had previously been removed and set outside. Just setting them outside, the drone brood dies and so does the mites. When I swap them back into a hive, they clean it all out and re-lay. I pull the first one or two round of drone combs in the spring, it helps cut down on early spring mites loads, helps the bees get a head start on them. I start swapping out drone comb again in August through October.


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## deknow

Ray's observation is exactly my point....when the bees have enough drones/drone comb, they don't feel the need to build them everywhere possible (between boxes, in honey supers, or a full foundationless frame full of drone brood). This isn't some far flung theory, anyone that bothers to observe will find it to be true....but most beekeepers in this country use 100% worker foundation (comb) for their broodnest..this is something the bees would never do...nor would they put all of their drones in one frame. In Dee's colonies, she uses foundation, but leaves about an inch open between the bottom of the foundation and the bottom bar....hardly any drone comb drawn between boxes. In our colonies, we use very little foundation at all, and no drone comb between boxes...and an empty frame in the broodnest becomes mostly small worker cells (depending on the time of season and where the frame is placed).

WRT drone trapping being near universally accepted...well, so was the use of fluvalinate and coumaphos...the propholactic use of TM...it simply took some time for the beekeeping community to realize the long term effects.

As far as the term, "drone right"....how could I have made it up? I just read it in a book the other day  ...but seriously, it perfectly describes the state of the bees when they are restricted from making the drones/drone comb that they would otherwise produce....one in which they try to correct the situation.....just like a colony that is not queen right will try to correct the situation.

deknow


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## peterloringborst

> As far as the term, "drone right"....how could I have made it up? I just read it in a book the other day


Yes, well I have never heard of such a thing, and I question the validity of the concept. Honey bees' desire to raise drones varies according to the season and conditions within the hive. 

At some times they have no desire to keep drones about; at other times they want to raise tons of them for god knows what reason. It certainly isn't to fecundate their queen, or one that they are "intending" to raise. 

There doesn't appear to be any connection with the honey bees' desire to raise drones and any other thing. It does seem as if they are unwelcome in the fall, though often drones are tolerated in the winter by some colonies. 

So any concept of a colony's sense of being "drone right" is highly original. Which is fine, if you want to make stuff up, but at least give some evidence as to why an entirely new concept is needed where one wasn't needed before.


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## deknow

although i do think the term "drone right" is original, the concept is far from new.

1. I've had several beekeepers tell me that when given foundationless frames, the bees only build drone comb....of course, if this were the case, there would be no bees. The "proof" behind this claim is always the same (and always comes from beekeepers who have all worker sized foundation in their colonies):

"I gave the bees an empty frame and they filled it with drone comb....since I didn't want the drones, I took out the frame, and replaced it (or cut out the comb), and they did the same thing again...therefore, when given no foundation, the bees always draw drone comb"

Of course, any observer that has kept bees without foundation (langstroth, warre, tbh, skep or gum), or has done a cutout knows that the bees tend to draw about 15% drone comb in the broodnest, so that's 85% (give or take) worker comb.

My own observations are that in a colony with enough drone comb, an empty foundationless frame in the broodnest will generally be mostly worker comb (unless there is a flow on and the bees need a place to store honey, or if the drone cells are packed with honey leaving no room for drones).

2. From, The Production and Distribution of Drone Comb and Brood in Honeybees (apis mellifera L.) Colonies Affected by Freedom in Comb Construction
Carole G. Levin and Clarence H. Collison

Discussion and Conclusions
Drone –size cell distribution counts taken during the summer of 1983 indicated that drone comb construction may be related to the amount of drone comb already present and freedom in cell construction and placement. When Free (1967) added worker comb to colonies, he found them to produce a higher percentage of drone-size cells than when drone comb had been added. Free and Williams (1975) further found that colonies without drone comb built a higher proportion of drone-size cells and more drone cells per bee than colonies with drone comb. The results of our experiment, though not statistically significant, support the above findings since the foundation and frameless colonies produced more drone comb than the drawn comb colonies which were initially provided with some drone-size cells.

I absolutely agree with you that:


> Honey bees' desire to raise drones varies according to the season and conditions within the hive.
> 
> At some times they have no desire to keep drones about; at other times they want to raise tons of them for god knows what reason. It certainly isn't to fecundate their queen, or one that they are "intending" to raise.


On the other hand,


> There doesn't appear to be any connection with the honey bees' desire to raise drones and any other thing.


is simply not true...and I'm surprised to hear you make such a claim. The subject of this thread is the demonstrated fact that given near 100% worker comb in the broodnest, that a frame of drone foundation/comb, or an empty frame will encourage the bees to raise drones in these frames....is this not "a thing" that encourages the bees to build drone comb and raise drones? Have you ever heard of anyone trying to do drone trapping (during an appropriate time of year, with a healthy colony of bees) who had all worker foundation based comb and could not get drone comb built or drones laid up? I haven't.

The ubiquitous use of 100% worker foundation in the broodnest makes these things difficult for most beekeepers to observe. It is undeniable that one of the "advantages" to worker foundation is the lack of drone comb present in the hive...it's also undeniable that in such a situation, the bees will use every opportunity to make drone comb and raise drones...this is a condition of not being "drone right".

page 98: The ABC of Bee Culture (A.I. Root, 1891)



> Until the invention and genral adoption of foundation we had no easy way of repressing the production of drones in far greater numbers than could ever be desirable. Since the introduction of foundation, however, it is found to be quite an easy matter to make almost every cell in the hive a worker cell.


...and from the 1888 edition, page 164:


> By having the hive furnished entirely with worker comb, we can so nearly prevent the production of drones that is safe enough to call it a complete remedy.


deknow


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## bigbearomaha

I vote to refer to hives as:

Drone Left - Too many drones or too much drone comb in a hive

Drone Right - Hardly any drones or drone comb in the hive

Drone Center - Just the amount of drones/comb that allows the hive to be most productive.

I don't think the bees really give a good goshdarn what 'proofs' and evidence for the comments and notions that people put forth.

Mostly, it's just the people who want to out-beekeeper each other by making demands on other beeks to prove themselves 'worthy'.

Since bees have never been truly domesticated and the biological science is still ongoing, I would think that there are no hard lines in terms of examining and suggesting concepts and ideas.

Big Bear


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## winevines

deknow said:


> The subject of this thread is the demonstrated fact that given near 100% worker comb in the broodnest, that a frame of drone foundation/comb, or an empty frame will encourage the bees to raise drones in these frames....is this not "a thing" that encourages the bees to build drone comb and raise drones?
> 
> deknow


The subject of this thread WAS culling drone brood related to mite control.

I am still unclear of what your argument is against this method... 

Is your premise that you are rearing drones in hives that do not need them?

If you are faithful to the 21 day or less regimin, I still do not understand the harm.


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## peterloringborst

deknow said:


> is simply not true...and I'm surprised to hear you make such a claim. The subject of this thread is the demonstrated fact that given near 100% worker comb in the broodnest, that a frame of drone foundation/comb, or an empty frame will encourage the bees to raise drones in these frames....is this not "a thing" that encourages the bees to build drone comb and raise drones?


Well, in the absence of drone comb, they will *at times* build drone comb. That is in response to comb building conditions. But they are not building _drone comb specifically_ in response to anything, they are building comb in response to the need for comb space. 

It is more correct to say that they build worker comb until they have reached what they regard as a sufficient quantity of that, and then switch over to drone comb. Drone comb is used by natural colonies for the storage of honey, presumably because is cheaper and faster to build. It is also used for the raising of drones when and if the colony desires drones. 

So drone comb is not generally built in order to raise drones, but in order to store honey. The queen may or may not lay in these cells and the eggs may or may not be raised into drones. Hives are not machines and responses are not uniform and automatic.


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## deknow

winevines said:


> The subject of this thread WAS culling drone brood related to mite control.


Correct...and the reason that no one has trouble getting the bees to lay in drone comb and/or build drone comb is because in a system where near 100% of the broodnest comb is worker comb, the bees will do almost anything to raise drones...between boxes, in honey supers (where comb never used for broodrearing is easy for the bees to rework into drone comb), a foundationless frame or laying in already built drone comb.



> I am still unclear of what your argument is against this method...


from my first post in this thread:
"If you let the bees raise the drones to a capped stage, they have put in a huge amount of resources (drawn comb, raised and fed the drones through capping, etc). drones are big and require a lot of food before capping...and once you uncap them, cut them out, feed them to chickens, etc...the bees _still_ want those drones (as they are trying to be drone right), and will start over again given any oppurtunity."

...this is an incredible waste of resources. the bees want drones/drone comb...but the beekeeper generally doesn't allow enough (from the perspective of the hive). ...so the beekeeper gives them an opportunity to start some (at the cost of a lot of resources), and then pulls the rug out before the bees get what they are working towards (more drones)....so they have to start over. it's the equivilant of buying scratch tickets...you spend resources (money) trying to get what you want (more money), and since you never get as much money as you want, you keep spending more money on scratch tickets...not an effective "get rich quick" strategy because on the whole, the efforts don't yield the desired results.

deknow


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## deknow

peterloringborst said:


> Hives are not machines and responses are not uniform and automatic.


...yet, given a mature colony, near 100% worker comb (built on foundation), healthy bees of sufficient numbers....has anyone had any trouble getting the bees to draw drone comb in a foundationless frame (or at the bottom of a shallow or medium frame placed in a deep box)? Has anyone using drone foundation under such conditions had trouble getting it laid up with drone brood?

there are lots of things that people would like to "make" the bees do (build up more quickly, raise queens, draw good worker comb, make more honey, not swarming, etc)....and the forums are full of people asking questions of how to do these things more effectively....yet, when it comes to drone trapping, the only problem people seem to have is remembering to take the comb out before the drones emerge.

has anyone that has tried drone trapping had trouble getting the bees to draw drone comb or trouble getting a comb laid up with drones? i've never heard anyone say they have.....have you?

deknow

deknow


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## winevines

Fair enough.. it is your POV.


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## peterloringborst

deknow said:


> ...this is an incredible waste of resources. the bees want drones/drone comb...but the beekeeper generally doesn't allow enough (from the perspective of the hive).


This whole line of reasoning is based upon imposing some human notion of cost benefit ratio. Honey bees do not regard the raising of drones as expensive nor cheap. They just do it. It has no real benefit to a colony that already has a laying queen. And even if they raise a queen, the drones are probably not the ones that will mate with _their sister_. In fact, inbreeding in honey bees can create diploid drones, which is lethal. The honey bee mating system ensures multiple mating and maximum outcrossing. Essentially, when a hive raises drones, they are doing it for any other colony but their own. In the unlikely event that they were the only colony for 30 miles around, the drones might serve as a last ditch resort to get their own queens mated.

Besides, how on earth did you get to the point where _you can see from the perspective of the hive? _Are you the bee whisperer now?


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## peterloringborst

deknow said:


> has anyone that has tried drone trapping had trouble getting the bees to draw drone comb or trouble getting a comb laid up with drones? i've never heard anyone say they have.....have you?


I worked on this exact technique at Cornell's Dyce Lab for many years. Yes. Yes, we did. When a good honey flow was on, hives frequently filled the drone comb with honey _before_ the queen could lay in them.

Later, when the honey flow quit, they frequently would _stop raising drones_ altogether and the drone combs would sit there empty. 

I would even recommend feeding at that time to get the bees raising drones again. Otherwise, the varroa mites have nowhere to go but into worker cells, defeating the whole purpose of drone trapping.


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## deknow

peterloringborst said:


> I worked on this exact technique at Cornell's Dyce Lab for many years. Yes. Yes, we did. When a good honey flow was on, hives frequently filled the drone comb with honey _before_ the queen could lay in them.


certainly, in a situation where a strong flow is on (especially if there is limited space to store the incoming nectar) there are barriers that keep the bees from raising drones _and_ workers. this is of course basic beekeeping knowledge (keep the broodnest from being backfilled with honey if you want the population to increase and not have them swarm).

given your claim above, i'm curious how you overcame the problem. is there a study other than this one?
http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/pdf/research_summary_05.pdf

....you are credited for having helped with the study, yet table 2 doesn't indicate any problem getting the bees to lay up drones in the drone comb in any of the reported colonies (over 1000 capped drone cells found in every case), for any of the 4 months the number of capped drones were measured. so, what was different in this study vs the work you talk about above where you had trouble getting the bees to lay up drones during the flow?

on the topic of "drone right" specifically, there is an interesting passage in the study:


> Seeley (2002) found that colonies provided with 20% drone combs (including both brood chambers and honey supers) added additional drone cells to signiÞcantly fewer worker combs than did colonies without any drone
> combs.


given all of this, it would be very interesting to find out how many capped drone brood would be found in the colonies that did not have the drones culled once a month....was this data collected/recorded?

deknow


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## deknow

peterloringborst said:


> This whole line of reasoning is based upon imposing some human notion of cost benefit ratio. Honey bees do not regard the raising of drones as expensive nor cheap. They just do it.


Peter, what are you talking about? The bees want to make drones. The bees invest significant resources in doing so. When the end result is that no drones are raised, the bees start over...using more resources. 

Cost/benefit is a basic concept in all life forms, and when drones are allowed to mature, the bees are getting the benefit they are working towards (more drones)...when they are not, they are expending the same resources, but no benefit from their perspective (the bees are not raising drones so that you can trap them...they want drones)...so they start over.

In the winter, for instance, when there are no queens to mate with, the cost of keeping many drones around is too much, and the behavior of the bees is to eliminate this cost.



> It has no real benefit to a colony that already has a laying queen. ...Essentially, when a hive raises drones, they are doing it for any other colony but their own.


Spreading the genetics of the queen (via producing drones for mating with other colonies) is a well understood biological imperative across many (if not most) life forms that use sexual reproduction...the foundation of natural selection. Just as in many species (including humans), parents and potential parents make selfless sacrifices for the sake of their offspring.



> Besides, how on earth did you get to the point where _you can see from the perspective of the hive? _Are you the bee whisperer now?


The best managers (of employees, money, stress, etc) do their best to understand the nature of what they are managing.

deknow


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## peterloringborst

deknow said:


> so, what was different in this study vs the work you talk about above where you had trouble getting the bees to lay up drones during the flow?


I did the work and not the writing. That was one reason I left there.


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## peterloringborst

deknow said:


> Peter, what are you talking about? The bees want to make drones.


Dean, what are you talking about? How do you know what bees "want"? 

Again, every colony is different, just like people. If you met a half dozen people in your whole life, would you have a pretty good grasp of human nature? I don't think so. 

A lot of police talk about the ability to read faces and having had extensive experience doing so, they get pretty good at it. Sometimes reading a human face correctly could make the difference between getting shot or not. 

I submit to you that having worked with thousands of hives for over 30 years gives me a pretty good idea about bee behavior. But I don't know what bees "want".


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## peterloringborst

Dean,
I learned a very long time ago that bees are like teenagers. Teenagers in the backs of cars do not "want" to get pregnant and have kids while still in high school. What they "want" is something else. But beyond that, they are following instinctual urges they scarcely understand. 

Bees also are following instinctual urges. I don't suppose they "want" to raise drones any more than I suppose they "want" to swarm. Sometimes they do it, sometimes they don't, according to urges we don't fully understand. Frankly, I don't "need" to understand why bees swarm.

I had kids in my twenties. I don't say I "wanted" to have them. Maybe I didn't, really. But when I saw those babies born, I was spiritually transformed into a father, and my life changed forever. Now, I would do anything for them. Maybe that's the reason there are so many crappy fathers -- maybe they weren't there at the birth moment, like I was. 

Nothing like it.


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## BEES4U

3/31/10

I thought that I would share this information:
I added one Pierco drone base comb to a deep brood chamber in frame position # 2 and then supered it later with a MDS of Pierco 6 1/4' frames.
I checked the hives weekly to see how they were drawing out the foundation.
I now have frames of capped brood and or honey that I can use to bait the bees up into their 2nd MDS of new Pierco foundation. The bees made a full frame of drones. But, they did not make any drone cells in their new 6 1/4" frames.
Yes, that's right. no conversion of the foundation into drone brood!
Comments?
Ernie


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## vanwinkeld

what i've done in the past is just put an empty frame in the brood body three frames from the center and remove it 28-30 days later (any longer and adult drones start emerging and reinfesting the hive). instead of taking it away to a freezer, simply cut out everything within the frame with your hive tool into a five gallon bucket(don't leave it in the yard) and replace in the hive then 28-30 days later repeat. feed the brood to your chickens or trade them for eggs from your local chicken keeper.


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## peterloringborst

vanwinkeld said:


> what i've done in the past is just put an empty frame in the brood body three frames from the center



Yes, well, that's so simple and sweet, that most people will pass. Need something more complicated, I guess ; )


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## RayMarler

jmgi said:


> Was just pondering something concerning drone brood and varroa, instead of removing sealed drone combs and putting them in the freezer overnight, wouldn't it be easier to go through the brood nest and scrape off the drone cell cappings with a scratcher and just put them back in the hive immediately. Seems like the bees would remove the immature drone brood and immature mites, if there are any, and toss them. You would probably have to do this soon after the drone cells are capped to make sure that you are getting very immature drone brood and not brood ready to emerge.


Yes, your reasoning is sound and works, in my experience.

jmgi, did you ever imagine that such a discussion might arise from your simple query into drone brood removal as a means of varroa mite control? I would like to add a comment or 2...

As I already posted, I like to practice drone brood removal for varroa mite counts and control. The discussion here has taken many turns... and I'd like to add an thought here that I don't see posted here as yet in this thread...

Drones have no fathers. 
Drones might be used for spreading the queens genetics in the area.
Newly mated queens will lay in drone comb soon, perhaps to help spread her genetics in the area immediately (Larry Conner states this in either Bee Sex Essentials or Increase Essentials, and I've noticed in myself). 
There has been some discussion I've seen on forums concerning the possibility of drones helping in keeping brood warm, I've seen no scientific studies on this possibility myself as of yet.

I myself think/feel that drones are good in the hives for these and perhaps more reasons, but I also think that bees go over board at times with so many drones. It seems to me the hives seem more energetic with a few drones, but they are less productive by far if they have too large population of drones. I also feel that drone brood removal is one way of helping to monitor and help control varroa mite population percentages in the hives. 

So, I keep a drone comb in the brood nest areas, it
helps reduce "wild drone comb" in other places in the hive.
is a way for me to monitor and help control varroa.
is a way for me to give drones but limit the amount in a hive.
helps spread queen genetics to improve diversity in the area.


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## peterloringborst

> So, I keep a drone comb in the brood nest areas, it
> helps reduce "wild drone comb" in other places in the hive.
> is a way for me to monitor and help control varroa.
> is a way for me to give drones but limit the amount in a hive.
> helps spread queen genetics to improve diversity in the area.


These are all excellent points. Others would do well to attend closely to this list.


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## trapperbob

I do not cull out my drone brood the way I see it every time you cut it out they have to expend time and effort to replace it and also the drones you need flying around to breed are not there. So now you are spreading the gene pool thin. I realize that it works to help control varroa but at what cost. I have found most of my hives tend to remove brood that are affected. A little powdered sugar and screens is all that I use. Also I have found if at least two small splits off each hive and let them make there own queen they tend to do well and have low varroa counts this lets me replace the old hive later if it fails and gives me an extra hive to boot. And if I give the parent hive a queen cell in late summer the varroa counts are nocked down one because of the break in the brood cycle and two because the new queen will lay like crazy being new. And essentially out breeds the mites so what you get is strong bees for winter. So I can grow my apiary and resonably expect them to be there in the spring if they put up the winter stores to do so. If you do not wish to grow beyond a certain amount of hives you could still use these same ideals but make your splits nucs and sell them or use them as a resource for your hives. Then combine them in the fall. Every one should keep a few nucs around anyways it could save a hive that has lost a queen or just strengthen one that is weak. Either way I think that culling drone brood out is a serious waste of genetic resources. and could if used on a wide scale could hurt the bee population. There must be a reason they make that many drones. Think about this every time humans think they know whats best for nature it tends to blow up in there face. besides african bees seem to have varroa but they are growing in number the only thing they do different is swarm alot we try to supress the swarming and hives fail so splitting is like swarming but controlled. It seems to work at least it has for me try it with a few hives at first and see what you think you just might like the results.


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## jmgi

This has been a very good discussion, it has gone on way longer than I expected for sure since I started the thread. Initially, my only point was that removing drone comb and freezing it was more time consuming, and that scratching off the drone cappings from immature pupae and putting the frame back in the hive immediately saved time, and accomplished the same thing, including destroying immature mites. As for me, I don't use wax drone foundation, plastic drone comb, or encourage the bees to build drone comb in any way. IMO, these are all faulty, short sighted gimmicks that lack proof of any long term success in keeping colonies alive. I expect that there are beeks who will swear by some of these methods, if it seems to be your magic bullet, then by all means keep doing it. Personally, I will not treat with anything, use all foundationless frames in my hives, and let the bees decide what cell size to draw as they see fit. Call me old fashioned, but I trust bees to do what's best for bees. John


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## peterloringborst

> besides african bees seem to have varroa but they are growing in number the only thing they do different is swarm alot


I am sorry but this is not really true. African bees are different in a lot of ways from European bees, even though they look the same. 

Based on studies of mitochondrial DNA, we now believe that honey bees originated in Africa. So the African group is basically a more primitive form of honey bee. They are not adapted to winter, so they do not form good clusters and they do not store such large amounts of honey.

When weather turns bad, they tend to abscond, or migrate. This is their method for dealing with seasonal changes. In fact, bees in India migrate as well, moving up into the mountains in summer and back down to the lowlands in winter. What this means is that they have different methods for dealing with adversity.

So, it should not surprise us that they have other different behaviors from European bees as well. They are far more defensive as we all know. They are also much more vigorous at grooming which may account for their ability to prevent varroa mites from taking over. 

There are a couple of other things, too. One is that the developmental cycle (day the bees are in the cocoon) is shorter which gives the varroa less time in the protected cell where they reproduce. Another key factor is that African bees do not live as long as European bees.

They raise a lot more brood so the colonies get pretty big. So, one might not notice that the bees are living shorter. But if a bee is infected with one thing or another, and it leaves the hive at a young age, the colony itself is much better off. 

It's like people. If we all died at forty, there would be far less illness. People in their eighties tend to have far more medical issues than younger people. So prolonging our life span has created a lot more cost for the medical system. Just one of those things, you know.

I talked to Dr. Ernesto Guzman Novoa about African bees. He worked with them in Mexico for decades, before he studied in California and settled in Ontario. He says African bees are much more trouble that they are worth, forget about them. 

Even so, if we could succeed in breeding Africans that would over-winter in cold climates, they would probably end up having all the same problems as European bees, since then they would have to spend as much as six months inside the hives during winter.


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## WPG

RayMarler said:


> Drones have no fathers.


That is true, but they all have _grandfathers_. So thinking about long range improvements to your genetics, letting good quality queens produce lots of drones will help. 

Getting breeder queens to produce your production queens is good strategy, but also having them produce massive amounts of drones will help improve the entire population of bees in your area_(feral, your neighbors' and then your own)_.


Goodluck


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## Countryboy

Dewey Caron told me another difference is that AHB raise drones early in the season, and then shut down the drone rearing.  European bees wait to raise drones, and then raise them all summer long.


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## peterloringborst

More info on drone production



> Honeybee colonies refrain from producing drones until the colony has a sufficiently large population of adult workers. The population of adult workers in a colony is naturally low following a swarming event, and swarms that establish new colonies prevent early drone production by not constructing drone comb (the wax cells in which drones are reared) until an average of 22 days after establishment (Lee and Winston, 1985).
> 
> Once established, larger swarms build a greater proportion of drone cells more quickly than do smaller swarms, indicating a strong effect of swarm size on drone comb investment (Henderson, 1991). In addition, small swarms that are composed of fewer than 10,000 workers sometimes build little or no drone comb at all, indicating that small colonies limit their investment in drones until they grow larger (Lee and Winston, 1985).
> 
> As small colonies increase their production of brood, they also increase the proportion of drone brood (Free and Williams, 1975). However, once colonies reach a large size (more than 12,000 adult workers), there does not appear to be any relationship between the number of workers reared and the percentage of drone brood in the colony (Page and Metcalf, 1984). Colonies therefore reach an upper limit in their investment in drones.
> 
> Honeybee colonies also decrease their production of workers when foraging conditions are poor (Schmickl and Crailsheim, 2001, Schmickl and Crailsheim, 2002), but it is unknown how honeybee colonies jointly regulate drone and worker production during periods of low food availability. Since the value of drones likely changes in relation to workers throughout the year (see ‘‘Season’’), colonies might be expected to display seasonal trends in how they jointly produce drones and workers in response to food availability, but this has not yet been tested.
> 
> The tendency of workers to eliminate males likely is influenced by colony food conditions, but how food conditions affect the relative rates of cannibalism for drone and worker larvae awaits future study. The tendency of workers to consume worker larvae increases during periods of poor food availability (Schmickl and Crailsheim, 2001).
> 
> Interestingly, under poor colony food conditions, the workers preferentially consumed younger (less than 3 days old) rather than older (4–5 days) larvae and also preferentially withheld nursing from the younger larvae … In general, the circumstances under which workers cannibalize larvae are poorly understood.


SEE:
_Honeybee colony drone production and maintenance in accordance with environmental factors: an interplay of queen and worker decisions_
Katie Boes, Insect. Soc. (2010) 57:1–9


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## Allen Dick

> ...my only point was that removing drone comb and freezing it was more time consuming, and that scratching off the drone cappings from immature pupae and putting the frame back in the hive immediately saved time, and accomplished the same thing, including destroying immature mites.


One obvious difference is that scratching does not destroy the foundress and any mature offspring in the cell, reducing effectiveness significantly. It is also more time-sensitive and if performed at the wrong time merely liberates the mites a little early while destroying what may be valuable drones.

That said, I regard any meddling with drone brood in an attempt to control mites to be an exercise in fighting the bees and one which has limited usefulness for most beekeepers. Peter documents the problems with the concept rather well.


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## jmgi

Allen Dick said:


> One obvious difference is that scratching does not destroy the foundress and any mature offspring in the cell, reducing effectiveness significantly. It is also more time-sensitive and if performed at the wrong time merely liberates the mites a little early while destroying what may be valuable drones.
> 
> In my original post I specifically stated that the sealed brood in the drone comb would have to be freshly sealed in order to get a kill of the immature mites, the foundress mite likely would survive this procedure (scratching off the cappings). Timing definitely is just as important here as when you remove and freeze the comb, except that you would be doing the scratching earlier. Still, it would save time, and would not require having two drone combs per colony, one in the freezer, and one to put in the hive to replace the one you removed. This is assuming that you have a larger operation where you can't visit the bee yards every day. Also, if the foundress mite is the only mite that survives this procedure, I would say you are still controlling the mite population to some extent.
> 
> As I also stated in a recent post here, I personally don't use any method that encourages the raising of drones beyond what would be natural, I use all foundationless frames and let the bees build what they want.


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## peterloringborst

jmgi said:


> Allen Dick said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still, it would save time, and would not require having two drone combs per colony, one in the freezer, and one to put in the hive to replace the one you removed. This is assuming that you have a larger operation where you can't visit the bee yards every day
> 
> 
> 
> All you need is enough to replace the ones you move out each day. You might have 200 hives with 200 combs to swap but say your freezer only holds 50 frames. So you just need 200 plus 50. That way you can swap 50 per day over four days, leaving them in the freezer overnight.
> 
> Freezing the brood and putting it back is less wasteful than cutting it our because the bees eat the brood and recycle the protein that way
Click to expand...


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## jmgi

>All you need is enough to replace the ones you move out each day. You might have 200 hives with 200 combs to swap but say your freezer only holds 50 frames. So you just need 200 plus 50. That way you can swap 50 per day over four days, leaving them in the freezer overnight. 

Good idea Peter.

>Freezing the brood and putting it back is less wasteful than cutting it our because the bees eat the brood and recycle the protein that way.

I was suggesting that someone scratch off the cappings only, not cutting the comb out completely.


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## megank

hmmm...Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the bees are going to use the recources to raise Drones to be "Drone right", then it's not really a waste of resources


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## deknow

Hi Megan,

Yes, I agree...bees producing drones to fulfill their own needs is not a waste of resources...unless the beekeeper destroys the drone brood before it can emerge (which is what this thread is about)...in such a case, the resources are spent, but the bees never get the drones they are trying to produce.

deknow


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## G E McMurray

I am new to beekeeping & this forum. Bush, can you please explain what your 'magic bullet' is?


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## mike bispham

peterloringborst said:


> At some times they have no desire to keep drones about; at other times they want to raise tons of them for god knows what reason. It certainly isn't to fecundate their queen, or one that they are "intending" to raise.
> 
> There doesn't appear to be any connection with the honey bees' desire to raise drones and any other thing. It does seem as if they are unwelcome in the fall, though often drones are tolerated in the winter by some colonies.
> 
> So any concept of a colony's sense of being "drone right" is highly original. Which is fine, if you want to make stuff up, but at least give some evidence as to why an entirely new concept is needed where one wasn't needed before.


It all about spreading genes Peter. You don't need to make sperm. But you, and every other male on the planet does. Think about it this way: the genes of those individuals that didn't are long gone. 

Its how life works, at a one of the most fundamental levels of all. 

A colony can be said to be 'drone-right' when it has the right number of drones to optimise its most fundamental 'purpose' - to maximise the number of its genes in the next generation. 

I'm astonished that this has to be explained to you; but then you frequently astonish me. 

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham

deknow said:


> (Quoting text)
> "By having the hive furnished entirely with worker comb, we can so nearly prevent the production of drones that is safe enough to call it a complete remedy. "


And there you have the recipe for sickening a population. Unless of course you are raising queens properly elsewhere. But if that is the case, that should be stated. 

Otherwise all this drone removal in pursuit of lighter varroa impact is simply another way of perpetuating bees that need help just to survive. In that - in its negative impact of the development of resistance in the local population - its no different at all from chemical treatments.

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham

peterloringborst said:


> Based on studies of mitochondrial DNA, we now believe that honey bees originated in Africa. So the African group is basically a more primitive form of honey bee.


Wow!

Mike (UK)


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## Michael Bush

>I am new to beekeeping & this forum. Bush, can you please explain what your 'magic bullet' is?

I had it in quotes because that is a term someone else has used and I would not have used. But I would say the tipping point for me for Varroa was cell size.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnotreatments.htm

My problem with drone trapping, besides the waste of resources, is that you are directly selecting against Varroa that prefer drone. Varroa that prefer drones seems to be the mechanism that Apis cerana uses to survive Varroa.


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## mike bispham

Michael Bush said:


> My problem with drone trapping, besides the waste of resources, is that you are directly selecting against Varroa that prefer drone. Varroa that prefer drones seems to be the mechanism that Apis cerana uses to survive Varroa.


It may also be an equally, or more, important mechanism, by which populations gain resistance. Those individuals that are worse at controlling varroa have fewer drones to spread their genes. (That merely points to, and doesn't outline a mechanism - but I'm sure you can glimpse the logic at work) 

Mike (UK)

Mike (UK)


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## Slow Drone

Mr. Bispham or Mr. Bush would you agree removing drone brood causes an imbalance in hive population hence causing stress on a colony. It's my opinion the stress caused by removing drone brood from a colony stresses a colony making them more susceptible to more disease.


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## mike bispham

Slow Drone said:


> Mr. Bispham or Mr. Bush would you agree removing drone brood causes an imbalance in hive population hence causing stress on a colony. It's my opinion the stress caused by removing drone brood from a colony stresses a colony making them more susceptible to more disease.


I think anything that restricts them from doing what comes naturally is a potential stress - but not necessarirly a terrible one. Life is full of stresses. 

But failing to allow genetic health to be realised through selection and/or natural selection is vastly more important in my view. If the genes are dysfunctional you have a problem at a fundamental level. Modern beekeeping has just that problem.

Mike (UK).


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## mike bispham

Allen Dick said:


> That said, I regard any meddling with drone brood in an attempt to control mites to be an exercise in fighting the bees and one which has limited usefulness for most beekeepers. Peter documents the problems with the concept rather well.


He does? Can you show us where?

Mike (UK)


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## Planner

Michael
Whites your magic bullet?


Michael Bush said:


> You guys want to work too hard. I'll stick with my "magic bullet".


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## Michael Bush

>Michael Whites your magic bullet?

See post #63


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