# nuc sales agreement



## bob393 (Aug 4, 2015)

I have a customer that wants to see my sales agreement before I sell her some nucs this spring.
I don't have a sales agreement. 

Does anyone use on and if so could I take a look at it so I can get an idea of what to include?


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

It sounds like she wants a guarantee. Given the number of BEEKEEPER failures,
I would move on to the next customer.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

A sales agreement? I agree to sell you a nuc which consists of a laying queen, bees, and brood. You agree not to kill them.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

JWPalmer said:


> A sales agreement? I agree to sell you a nuc which consists of a laying queen, bees, and brood. You agree not to kill them.


:thumbsup:


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

bob393 said:


> I have a customer that wants to see my sales agreement before I sell her some nucs this spring.
> I don't have a sales agreement.


Be sure to show her the nuc. Yes there's a laying queen. Yes there's good population and enough food. No there aren't any brood diseases. Get an inspection certificate from your state inspector.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> Be sure to show her the nuc. Yes there's a laying queen. Yes there's good population and enough food. No there aren't any brood diseases. Get an inspection certificate from your state inspector.


Mike has it with inspection certificate. That way if there is anything that is wrong you can show that they have be inspected before sale. Bee inspectors:bus


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## crab414 (Jan 6, 2020)

I can kinda see her side, if she has been taken advantage in the past. We've got some shady nuc sellers around here. One fella in Victor New York passes off April splits with bought queens. He has the customer drop off the hives in February and then pick it up at the end of May. One guy I know went to get his over wintered nuc and there were two queen cages in the grass, hmm. Last year on Craigslist he got his " lines" from Don the Fat Bee Man. This year he is using Micheal Palmer Queens. Gotta be careful in this racket!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I believe an inspection certificate does not guarantee that every nuc has been inspected. I was inspected for sales of bees and it involved only a random sample of bees and comb in the apiary. Many sellers make a check for a laying queen some time previous to you picking it up but once it leaves their hands it is at your risk.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Frank, it is the same here. An apiary inspection is required before one can sell nucs or live bees and comb, but only 25% of my apiary was actually inspected for disease and mites. I get a certificate of health for the entire apiary and an inspection sticker for each hive present at the time. I am a little gun shy at the moment with these inspections. Last year we killed a queen.


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

The inspector here is only required to check a small %. Nice guy and wasn't upset that I asked him to use my tools.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

crab414 said:


> I can kinda see her side, if she has been taken advantage in the past. We've got some shady nuc sellers around here. One fella in Victor New York passes off April splits with bought queens.


Are you saying that there is something wrong with using purchased queens in the making up of nucs?
Just trying to understand your comment.


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## crab414 (Jan 6, 2020)

When the seller is selling an over wintered nuc, I don't want to see empty queen cages laying about. Would you want an over wintered nuc with this year's southern queen? We're talking the first half of May in the north east.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

pull the nuc w/overwintered queen, add a bought queen to OG hive, requeen later in the summer ? makes $$ and cents 
"2 queen cages in the grass" ****ing indeed for a large operation, but yes I get the point.. 
the "He has the customer drop off the hives in February and then pick it up at the end of May" is a huge red flag... who lets random equipment come and go in to there yard?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

msl said:


> "He has the customer drop off the hives in February and then pick it up at the end of May" is a huge red flag... who lets random equipment come and go in to there yard?


Agree 100%. Good way to intoduce AFB or EFB into your apairy.

I thought we all agreed on the definition of an "overwintered" nuc. Pretty hard to have a spring queen in the nuc unless she is last year's spring queen. Should be a post summer's soltice queen that has survived the winter with her brood and bees. Also should be available much sooner than May. Mine are scheduled for late March delivery and are all pre-sold.


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## crab414 (Jan 6, 2020)

I didn't think about it that way. I can see the logic. Personally, I wouldn't do business that way.


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## crab414 (Jan 6, 2020)

Exactly! That's why I felt he was selling spring splits. Why not just ask for a deposit on the nuc box like our club and everyone else is doing.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

crab414 said:


> When the seller is selling an over wintered nuc, I don't want to see empty queen cages laying about. Would you want an over wintered nuc with this year's southern queen? We're talking the first half of May in the north east.


In our part of the world, spring nucs are sold as 4 frames units. If I was going to make nucs from a colony, here is how I would do it. I start by walking out to the double deep wintered colony carrying 2 4 frame boxes. I pick thru the frames of the wintered colony, each of the boxes gets 3 frames with brood, one with pollen / honey. Bees are shaken into the bottom box off of all the frames except the one with the queen. Frame with queen goes into one of the two 4 frame boxes. Now excluder goes on top of the deep left in place with all the bees, and the two 4 frames go above the excluder. Lid over those.

Come back the next day with two caged queens. Take two nucs off the top, one is wintered queen with bees that are her offspring, and brood in all stages, pretty much the definition of a wintered nuc. The other 4 frame box has brood in all stages, gets one of the caged queens. The bottom box now gets the other caged queen.

Net result, one wintered nuc to sell, one spring nuc to sell, and the leftover bees in a box with a queen, they can build up a colony over the summer to do it all again next spring. In a couple more days the queens will be out of the cages, we go thru pulling out empty cages and confirm there are eggs. At that point, nucs are ready to go. If we were rushed when pulling cages, you may well see a couple empty queen cages in the grass, but they will end up in a pocket or bucket by the end of the day.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

crab414 said:


> When the seller is selling an over wintered nuc, I don't want to see empty queen cages laying about. Would you want an over wintered nuc with this year's southern queen? We're talking the first half of May in the north east.


Really queen cages on the ground. Is this how beekeeping is done now at days. Most my bee yards are 50+ years old. I'm one that still opens my hives up and see what is going inside.:scratch:

I sell a lot of nucs and have had less then 5% problems over the years. I feel that's not bad having to deal with some many that don't know what they are doing.


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## crab414 (Jan 6, 2020)

This fella has his hives at his house and his nuc yard is at a farm maybe five miles away. I've bought from him also. At first I was miffed because at the lack of bees in the nucs and how much I had to do to get them built up. But now I realize that I wouldn't have learned as much if I had it easier with proper nucs. I started reading all the material I could find on bee nutrition and the symptoms of improper nutrition. Gotta find the positives.


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## Andhors (Dec 7, 2018)

Consider how much more difficult it would be to deal with this purchaser. I rented a house to a woman who took an hour to read a boiler plate rental agreement. She was a pain in the neck. You might be better to tell her to take it or leave it. What if she is dissatisfied?Then you have to deal with her again.


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## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

Nuc customers are the most difficult and demanding people in my opinion. I have had them call me six months later after the Nuc swarmed and ask for a refund. After a bad year, I talked with Bob Harvey and now do it more the way he does or did. I have them come and pick out there own Nuc. This has dropped complaints to near zero. People see the pictures of great nucs that people build and expect that when they buy there are 5 frames of brood, etc. It doesn't help that there are different ways to sell Nucs. Some sell 3, 4, or 5 frame and people still expect perfection, because afterall, you are a commercial beekeeper, a god in the beekeeping world.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Written agreements protect both sides.
Clearly describe the *minimum* contents of the nucs.. I have never had a complaint from a customer for exceeding the minimum.

Alex


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## justbee01 (Jan 5, 2017)

grozzie2 said:


> In our part of the world, spring nucs are sold as 4 frames units. If I was going to make nucs from a colony, here is how I would do it. I start by walking out to the double deep wintered colony carrying 2 4 frame boxes. I pick thru the frames of the wintered colony, each of the boxes gets 3 frames with brood, one with pollen / honey. Bees are shaken into the bottom box off of all the frames except the one with the queen. Frame with queen goes into one of the two 4 frame boxes. Now excluder goes on top of the deep left in place with all the bees, and the two 4 frames go above the excluder. Lid over those.
> 
> Come back the next day with two caged queens. Take two nucs off the top, one is wintered queen with bees that are her offspring, and brood in all stages, pretty much the definition of a wintered nuc. The other 4 frame box has brood in all stages, gets one of the caged queens. The bottom box now gets the other caged queen.
> 
> Net result, one wintered nuc to sell, one spring nuc to sell, and the leftover bees in a box with a queen, they can build up a colony over the summer to do it all again next spring. In a couple more days the queens will be out of the cages, we go thru pulling out empty cages and confirm there are eggs. At that point, nucs are ready to go. If we were rushed when pulling cages, you may well see a couple empty queen cages in the grass, but they will end up in a pocket or bucket by the end of the day.


Can second Grozzie's comment. Had the option of buying nucs with my choice of new queen or overwintered queen from a local supplier here.


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## crab414 (Jan 6, 2020)

I might buy some spring splits ( my terminology) from an old timer this spring. He does his splits in April to combat swarming. He's up front, says he'll only know what he's got come April and he only wants 100$ a split. He's been at this along time and I keep my mouth shut and just listen.... Wished I could have met him sooner.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

grozzie2 said:


> If I was going to make nucs from a colony, here is how I would do it. I start by walking out to the double deep wintered colony carrying 2 4 frame boxes. I pick thru the frames of the wintered colony, each of the boxes gets 3 frames with brood, one with pollen / honey. Bees are shaken into the bottom box off of all the frames except the one with the queen. Frame with queen goes into one of the two 4 frame boxes. Now excluder goes on top of the deep left in place with all the bees, and the two 4 frames go above the excluder. Lid over those.


Roughly, what time of the year are you doing this in your area?


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

matt1954 said:


> After a bad year, I talked with Bob Harvey and now do it more the way he does or did. I have them come and pick out there own Nuc.


Often enough I let people know that they are welcomed to stop by and make their own nucs. I tell them that anything in this or that hive is up for grabs in making up a nuc. Usually the ones who are the most "demanding" before purchasing the nuc are the first ones to give up and ask for help in selecting the right frames. I only sell 20-30 nucs per year, so can dedicate the time for these individual nuc making sessions.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Marcin said:


> Roughly, what time of the year are you doing this in your area?


Early to mid May is when most folks are doing spring splits to make nucs around here. A lot of the timing is driven by the availability of queens.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

We sell overwinetered nucs and spring nucs. Overwintered nucs are obvious: last summer's split overwintered, with 2-3 brood, 1-2 food, 0-1 foundation/part drawn/empty comb to give me a bit of time before they swarm. Spring nucs are the same but have a purchased queen that was introduced 4-7 weeks before sale, so all brood is hers and I know her pattern before nuc is released. For beginners I take the time to make the nuc with them so they learn confidence and how to inspect. They also see the queen. For experienced beekeepers they can come early or late and I'll close the nuc for them so they get the foragers, or they can come during the day and inspect their own nuc before they take it. The apiary is inspected so we can sell legally. It's their responsibility once they leave my property. I've never had any complaints. And I'm not moving thousands of nucs (yet!).
Just my opinion but I would not call grozzies 2nd "nuc" a "nuc." I'd call it a split that was done a few days ago so I can verify eggs. At that point I don't know yet if she's a drone layer. I have gotten a number of those over the years and would not want to sell them. I would not make any guarantees beyond: state health certificate and it had a good laying queen when it left my property. I have not gotten to the point of letting a customer inspect random nucs until they find the one they want. I'd be worried about my queens....


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

JWPalmer said:


> A sales agreement? I agree to sell you a nuc which consists of a laying queen, bees, and brood. You agree not to kill them.


With what delivery date? And where's the recourse for failure to do so? Is highest percentage of problem!


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

bob393 said:


> I have a customer that wants to see my sales agreement before I sell her some nucs this spring.
> I don't have a sales agreement.
> 
> Does anyone use on and if so could I take a look at it so I can get an idea of what to include?


I would tell her... You give me money I give you bees, there's no need to cut down trees and bring paper into this transaction.

"I am not responsible for them while they are in your care, you are". You might even want that on a sign.


I find when people start with things like this, they end up being customers that are problem complainer customers. Meaning, 

they are ones to avoid. Reason is people like to complain and will put your business down by complaining to others.

1 upset customer can do more harm than 100 satisfied customers to doing you good. 

AVOID them like the plague.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

I agree with Tim, However: In Feb or March I tell an estimated date for pickup. I will keep in touch if it is far off but otherwise let them know a week in advance. I want to get 2-3 apiary evaluations in before I sell nucs so I can sell good queens but not my best (which undergo further evaluations for breeders).


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