# Sticky  Case of confirmed EFB in Maine



## Dotg

First year, I have five hives. I split one in early June.
initially, I thought the half that had the queen had swarmed anyway. Two weeks ago I saw a queen and thought they hadn’t swarmed after all (although it was technically enough time for a virgin to have made it back home).
Nothing has ever looked amazing with this hive, but it’s my first year and first split and I was figuring they were sorting it out. 
They have not sorted it out. Spotty brood pattern, dead larvae, discolored larvae, and a couple they had uncapped that were dead (these were formed enough for me to see purple eyes, but the rest of the body was all white).
I now have a queen I could give them. I am not sure if all these problems could be related to a poorly mated virgin or some inbreeding or something. 
Or could it be something worse?
A couple of the larvae look a little bit yellow. And some are much darker. Some look white though. There are eggs but the brood pattern is very intermittent. 
I’ve been using the same hive tool without disinfecting between hives. If it was EFB, I would think that the other hives would also have it? But maybe that’s wrong. 
Should I dispatch the queen and give them another? Or is it possible I am dealing with a disease that is not her fault (or that won’t be fixed by getting rid of her)? 
thanks in advance for any suggestions.


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## crofter

2019 efb threads


i stickied a handful of threads last year having to do with efb outbreaks. i thought it would be best to organize those threads here into one sticky, and we can start over with 2020 outbreaks. https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?355225-Which-brood-disease-is-shown-in-my-photographs...




www.beesource.com




Above is a collection of thread on European Foulbrood. I think you will quickly find evidence pointing to that as your problem. From my own experience with it I would say that is near 100% definitive. If this is indeed so you need some drastic action to prevent spread fo other colonies if it has not already.


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## squarepeg

Dotg said:


> Spotty brood pattern, dead larvae, discolored larvae, and a couple they had uncapped that were dead (these were formed enough for me to see purple eyes, but the rest of the body was all white).


excellent description, and your very good photos confirm.



Dotg said:


> I now have a queen I could give them. I am not sure if all these problems could be related to a poorly mated virgin or some inbreeding or something.


this does not appear to be a bad queen issue.



Dotg said:


> Or could it be something worse? A couple of the larvae look a little bit yellow. And some are much darker. Some look white though. There are eggs but the brood pattern is very intermittent.


yes, which can be indicative of efb or pms, (parasitic mite syndrome). i'm not seeing much jelly, i.e. the brood looks dryer than it should, so there may not be enough nurse bees to keep up with the queen's laying or not enough food available for the nurse bees to keep the brood adequately fed.



Dotg said:


> I’ve been using the same hive tool without disinfecting between hives. If it was EFB, I would think that the other hives would also have it?


while it's possible to transfer efb with a hive tool efb spreads in other ways. the efb bacteria live in dying or dead brood, beebread, honey, and in the collective gut of all the bees in the colony as they all pass food amongst each other. bees drifting between hives, bees robbing out infected dwindled hives, and the beekeeper moving of infected frames between hives are the main ways efb gets spread.



Dotg said:


> Should I dispatch the queen and give them another? Or is it possible I am dealing with a disease that is not her fault (or that won’t be fixed by getting rid of her)?


i think the first thing to consider is get an efb test kit asap to rule it in/out. if it's efb, my approach would be to euthanize the bees, burn every frame that contains either brood, beebread, or honey, and start checking your other hives pretty often for any sign of it.

if it's not efb:

if you are in a nectar dearth syrup may be helpful. if you are in a pollen dearth pollen sub may be helpful. if it turns out to be pms you will need to knock down the mites. if you are short on nurse bees you can shake some in from a stronger colony.


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## squarepeg

also, please share your general location and consider putting it onto your profile. it helps alot when trying to help diagnose problems or give advice in general. thanks for starting the thread, and sorry to see you are having problems with your bees.

other than the split, were these first year hives started with nucs or packages?


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## Dotg

squarepeg said:


> also, please share your general location and consider putting it onto your profile. it helps alot when trying to help diagnose problems or give advice in general. thanks for starting the thread, and sorry to see you are having problems with your bees.
> 
> other than the split, were these first year hives started with nucs or packages?


I just went back in and checked for roping. I know that EFB doesn’t rope the way that AFB does, but it still ropes. These larvae came out whole (I picked darker colored ones to test). 
does this rule out EFB or is that wishful thinking?
As I was worrying, it did occur to me that when I split this hive, if the queen had swarmed already or swarmed right after, they’d be without brood for some time. Which would mean most of my bees are older. And at that time I also figured out I need to open the brood nest some to alleviate the urge to swarm to some extent. It’s entirely possible that I fixed too much and they don’t have enough nurse bees to cover this brood. (They had a lot when I initially split—but if they had to wait to raise a queen and have her mated and start laying, they’d no longer be nurse bees, right? Also generally fewer. If I opened up the brood nest in combination with all this, would the larvae look like this? ) 
Here’s a larvae I tried to “rope.” I tried this with others, they all came out as a solid piece. I am in Maine. I thought I’d added that to my profile. I purchased them as overwintered nucs.
I appreciate the input! I am hoping my rope test means they’re ok. Well clearly they’re not ok, but that they don’t have something devastating and contagious.


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## squarepeg

afb typically allows the brood to make it to the capped stage, and the roping happens when the developing bee turns into dark brown goo underneath the cap.

yes, your manipulations may be contributory here, but frank and i agree that this looks like something other than a bad queen and/or not enough nurse bees.

do all you can to prevent drift and robbing to your other hives as well as any neighboring hives, i.e. robbing screens or entrance reducers. 

find out the fastest way to get an efb test kit and run the test.

share what is going on with the supplier of your bees.

you wouldn't happen to be in colorado would you?


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## Dotg

I am in Maine. 
You said afb develops under cappings. Did you mean EFB?
Ordering test. 
thank you.


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## squarepeg

afb under the caps, efb in early larval stages like yours.


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## squarepeg

here's another good thread about a recent case of efb confirmed by testing:









2022 Dead Larvae - Confirmed EFB


I am wondering if what I think is going on matches what other people are seeing. I am seeing some brood that looks like it has starved and is dead. I am not having many stores coming in so I think the bees are not able to feed all of the brood, and some of it is starving before it gets capped...




www.beesource.com


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## Dotg

squarepeg said:


> here's another good thread about a recent case of efb confirmed by testing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2022 Dead Larvae - Confirmed EFB
> 
> 
> I am wondering if what I think is going on matches what other people are seeing. I am seeing some brood that looks like it has starved and is dead. I am not having many stores coming in so I think the bees are not able to feed all of the brood, and some of it is starving before it gets capped...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.beesource.com


Shouldn‘t they have roped instead of coming out intact? I appreciate your assistance and am not questioning to doubt your knowledge/ experience. I am just trying to understand. The state Inspector did a class on brood diseases during bee school and she said they’d rope. 
This is the same hive I posted about here weeks ago. What are these dark spots in this new comb?
would it have started like that? 
and if they had it then and I’ve been inspecting them with the same gloves and hive tool all this time does it make sense that the other hives (one foot away in both directions) are healthy?
again, not asking to doubt your knowledge. Really wanting to understand how it could happen in the middle hive (of 5) at the same time that I did a split. 
It definitely looks like all those other posts. 🤢


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## Dotg

Dotg said:


> Shouldn‘t they have roped instead of coming out intact? I appreciate your assistance and am not questioning to doubt your knowledge/ experience. I am just trying to understand. The state Inspector did a class on brood diseases during bee school and she said they’d rope.
> This is the same hive I posted about here weeks ago. What are these dark spots in this new comb?
> would it have started like that?
> and if they had it then and I’ve been inspecting them with the same gloves and hive tool all this time does it make sense that the other hives (one foot away in both directions) are healthy?
> again, not asking to doubt your knowledge. Really wanting to understand how it could happen in the middle hive (of 5) at the same time that I did a split.
> It definitely looks like all those other posts. 🤢


I guess I misunderstood something at some point. I just watched a thousand videos and they say no roping at all. nevermind.


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## squarepeg

my experience with larvae killed by efb was that the larvae discolored some more yellow than others and did not turn into a ropy goo like with afb. ropiness is associated with afb and not characteristic of efb. perhaps you misunderstood the state inspector.

see my answer above about the hive tool and the same applies to gloves. again, this is something more of an issue with afb and not efb.

if you have efb, you can almost be certain that your other hives have it too. it spreads really fast to nearby hives, mostly because bees drift in and out of neighboring hives a lot more than we realize and are able to see. plus, if infected your hives are a threat to any neighboring beekeeper whose bees are within flying distance of your hives.

if you read the thread i linked in my last post, you will see that my opinion regarding the state of knowledge and advice given about it here in the u.s. on efb is seriously dated. in that thread, i linked a video presentation given in the u.k. a few years ago that more than illustrates my opinion. 

spend some time reading the threads that frank and i linked, and watch that video. in doing so you will end up understanding more about it than my state inspector, and likely most state inspectors do, not of their fault, but because on the whole we are seriously behind here in the u.s. compared to those in europe for example.

switzerland for example, after seeing a sharp uptick in efb, adopted a mandatory burn policy.


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## crofter

Much of the reported experience with EFB may have been valid a number of years ago, but it appears that many variants have been developing resistance that makes them more infective and harder to irradicate. Some other bee diseases are experiencing the same phenomenon of out dated treatment recommendations.


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## AHudd

Here's how I remember. A(after capping)FB, E(early)FB.

Alex


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## Fivej

crofter said:


> 2019 efb threads
> 
> 
> i stickied a handful of threads last year having to do with efb outbreaks. i thought it would be best to organize those threads here into one sticky, and we can start over with 2020 outbreaks. https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?355225-Which-brood-disease-is-shown-in-my-photographs...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.beesource.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Above is a collection of thread on European Foulbrood. I think you will quickly find evidence pointing to that as your problem. From my own experience with it I would say that is near 100% definitive. If this is indeed so you need some drastic action to prevent spread fo other colonies if it has not already.


Frank, I just read your post on Sacbrood. Good post, ty. How would you conclude that dotg's hive has EFB and not Sacbrood? Not questioning your opinion that this is EFB, just picking your brain. Symptoms are very similar and after reading the Sacbrood posts, I took note of dotg's description of yellow and brown larvae and noticed a possible perforated capping in their linked post about brown spots.
If the EFB test is negative, would your diagnosis be Sacbrood? J


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## crofter

Fivej said:


> Frank, I just read your post on Sacbrood. Good post, ty. How would you conclude that dotg's hive has EFB and not Sacbrood? Not questioning your opinion that this is EFB, just picking your brain. Symptoms are very similar and after reading the Sacbrood posts, I took note of dotg's description of yellow and brown larvae and noticed a possible perforated capping in their linked post about brown spots.
> If the EFB test is negative, would your diagnosis be Sacbrood? J


With EFB the twisted "belly ache" late stage larvae, most of which will have a rather translucent appearance showing the outlines of the trachea, is quite distinctive. Something like an X Ray showing ribs on a mammal but not nearly that contrasty. 

Sacbrood affected larvae fail after capping at the transition to pupae process. The larval skin fails to shed and swells into the sac shape with the formed head attached to the sac. EFB larvae are affected before capping. A few of them that have their feed jelly *less compromised* do survive capping and die afterwards at different stages of development; they could be confuse with sacbrood. Those few EFB infected larvae/pupae that survive capping are firmer and they do not have the formed larval head blending into the sac of liquid that so defines sacbrood.


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## squarepeg

one other thing to keep in mind regarding efb, is that hygenic bees will waste no time removing the devitalized larvae. because of this the beekeeper may only find one or two affected larvae in the hive upon inspection, easy to miss if you aren't looking for it. when there is a shotgun capped brood pattern you have to be extra vigilant.


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## grozzie2

The above linked photos show no sign of pollen or nectar. Those bees are suffering the most common malady that causes larvae to wither and die, starvation.


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## crofter

squarepeg said:


> one other thing to keep in mind regarding efb, is that hygenic bees will waste no time removing the devitalized larvae. because of this the beekeeper may only find one or two affected larvae in the hive upon inspection, easy to miss if you aren't looking for it. when there is a shotgun capped brood pattern you have to be extra vigilant.


Yes; the smoking guns are quickly removed. However the means of this removal infects the nurse bees and the bees habit of ceremonial food exchange by trophillaxis spreads the infection within the colony. Enhanced hygenic behavior is good for primary mite control but can be a double edged sword in regard to some other maladies. Very low mite levels in concert with spotty brood is actually a signal to look for EFB and possibly Sacbrood. These, with their disruption of successful brood rearing destroy the mites essential reproduction conditions.


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## crofter

grozzie2 said:


> The above linked photos show no sign of pollen or nectar. Those bees are suffering the most common malady that causes larvae to wither and die, starvation.


When you see very little pollen and naked larvae with sparse amounts of *bee milk* in the cells this is one of the clues that sac brood virus is perhaps in the picture. It interferes with bees regulation of pollen harvesting or inclination to consume it for the essential protein to make bee milk and royal jelly. 

It is essentially starvation but indirectly and not due to lack of availability in the field.


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## Dotg

a little more context. 
after spending 36 hours obsessing over EFB I went back and looked at my photos of the entire hive. 
there were two frames that had these dead larvae in them. 
they were in the second box that i added, and they werent next to one another. 
i think that two weeks ago i moved these frames in an attempt to get the bees to move to the next box and draw more comb. this split wasn‘t strong enough to do that to yet (I think). the other frames in this hive look healthy. 
i am waiting for the EFB test and ill update what the results are when i have it. But I’m thinking Grozzie is right.
maybe I am wanting grozzie to be right. 
I am sorry I didn‘t have that context for all of you before. And maybe it doesnt suggest what i think it suggests. I sometimes dont see the forest, staring at one tree. 
There is pollen and nectar on the frames that look healthier. 
I am embarrassed to be learning I am probably the one who killed them on a public forum. 
or maybe its still EFB. Test is on its way.


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## squarepeg

no apologies necessary dotg. you did mention spreading them too thin and i acknowledged it may have been a contributing factor. the appearance of the dead larvae in you photos are suggestive of malnutrition and nurse bee neglect. the spotty capped brood pattern however would not be expected in the scenario you describe. once a brood is capped it no longer needs nurse bees to feed it.

yet, with so much on the table get the test result is critical. make sure you get enough sample on your little spatula. i looked for the largest yet most discolored larvae when taking my samples.


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## lylephipps

My first thought was starvation. Any updates?


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## Dotg

Just came back in. Test was positive. 
Questions: are all cells with pollen in them considered “bee bread”? 
or am I misunderstanding the term bee bread?
I ask because a bunch of the pollen cells on at least one of the frames look moldy.
This makes sense, because EFB is bacteria and I am pretty sure you can grow bacteria on like a Petri dish (or any other number of less scientific items), but in all my panicked research I never saw anything that said EFB causes moldy looking pollen or bee bread or anything like that. 
Thanks to everyone who gave suggestions and insight.


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## AHudd

Dotg said:


> Just came back in. Test was positive.
> Questions: are all cells with pollen in them considered “bee bread”?
> or am I misunderstanding the term bee bread?
> I ask because a bunch of the pollen cells on at least one of the frames look moldy.
> This makes sense, because EFB is bacteria and I am pretty sure you can grow bacteria on like a Petri dish (or any other number of less scientific items), but in all my panicked research I never saw anything that said EFB causes moldy looking pollen or bee bread or anything like that.
> Thanks to everyone who gave suggestions and insight.
> View attachment 70475


I have seen pollen pushed out of cells by SHB eggs hatching.

Alex


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## crofter

If you dig enough into EFB literature you will find mention of possible variety of secondary opportunistic bacteria and molds along with the EFB organizm. A reason that the odor can be different from case to case. I had cells that I really could not tell whether it was pollen or dead larvae a moldering in the cells. Often bluish or greenish sometimes fuzzy. Didnt matter though; the diagnostic symptoms are in the 2-3 day old larvae. Comb harbors disease for approaching 2 years so I would get it gone by a method with as little chance as possible of exposing it to robbing bees or tracking it around on boots, clothes or tools.


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## squarepeg

your thread just graduated from the 'beekeeping 101' subforum to 'diseases and pests'. also going to change the title to 'case of confirmed efb in maine'. many thanks for sharing your experience with us dotg.


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## Dotg

squarepeg said:


> your thread just graduated from the 'beekeeping 101' subforum to 'diseases and pests'. also going to change the title to 'case of confirmed efb in maine'. many thanks for sharing your experience with us dotg.


Worst graduation ever.


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## squarepeg

understood, i feel your pain. i lost 26 out of 28 colonies to efb in 2019.


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## elmer_fud

Dotg said:


> Worst graduation ever.


I agree, I am joining you in the graduating class this year though :-(


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## squarepeg

that's why i say burn the bugs and all that they infest leaving no survivors as a minimum.

shook swarm if you want to save the colonies, and consider starting the shook swarm with one quart of syrup medicated with otc.

do a mite drop taking advantage of the broodless period at the time of shook swarm, as all the mites in the colony are phoretic.

requeen if you want, but the shook swarm is already enough of a brood break that requeening isn't as helpful.

the queen in the infected hive is sharing the same community gut as the rest of the colony. the bug predominates in this collective gut, but the single round of otc will do a pretty good job of knocking it out of the collective gut,

that is assuming the efb strain is not one that has already developed resistance to otc,

in which case the treament may not be effective at all, and the best thing to do with efb like that is destroy it by fire.


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## Amibusiness

This may already have been clarified above and I missed it, when you burn are you burning frames and bees only or boxes and covers as well? Sorry to all experiencing this graduation!
Have you notified your supplier and found out what their experiences are with it this year?
I am pretty sure in many parts of the world it is a reportable disease, I assume it is not in ME but may be worth checking, esp if you don't know where it came from or how or why....


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## squarepeg

in my particular case, and after the directed application of otc failed to resolve the efb, i euthanized the colonies and burned all frames containing brood, beebread, and/or honey. i did not burn frames containing perfectly empty drawn comb nor the boxes and covers, but rather washed and bleached these as an experiment. so far, and 3 years later, i have not had a recurrence of efb.


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## crofter

Amibusiness said:


> This may already have been clarified above and I missed it, when you burn are you burning frames and bees only or boxes and covers as well? Sorry to all experiencing this graduation!
> Have you notified your supplier and found out what their experiences are with it this year?
> I am pretty sure in many parts of the world it is a reportable disease, I assume it is not in ME but may be worth checking, esp if you don't know where it came from or how or why....


Frames and bees only. It is generally considered that aside from the bees gut, the stores is the main repository, especially the bee bread/pollen submerged in honey where it can remain active approaching 2 years. The bacteria is anaerobic so on boxes a good scrubbing/soaking with bleach or flash heating with flame makes it unnecessary to destroy. Unlike the spore forming American Foulbrood, it really is not

EFB is non compulsory reportable in Canada. Compulsory in EU; dont know about US states.


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## elmer_fud

crofter said:


> EFB is non compulsory reportable in Canada. Compulsory in EU; dont know about US states.


I think it depends on which state you are located in within the US. We dont have any reporting requirements here (in Colorado)

The EFB in my hives came in from someone else, and did not come in with a package/nuc that I bought. The last time I bought bees was in 2020, and the EFB showed up in the spring of 2022. I have not bought any used equipment.


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## crofter

elmer_fud said:


> I think it depends on which state you are located in within the US. We dont have any reporting requirements here (in Colorado)
> 
> The EFB in my hives came in from someone else, and did not come in with a package/nuc that I bought. The last time I bought bees was in 2020, and the EFB showed up in the spring of 2022. I have not bought any used equipment.


I have nothing solid on where my infection came from. I did bring in some queens previous summer but it did not show up till spring. Lost one nuc out of 13 colonies overwinter and one of the 12 survivors was slow getting going. Had no inkling yet of EFB for another month and did some combining etc. in the meantime with some of the other colonies slow to build up. Sadder but wiser now. Good sailing for a few years until this spring Sackrood showed up. Back to school for further education! What next?

I had visited a few other yards previous autumn and thought it possible I may have brought it home on my boot soles.


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## joebeewhisperer

crofter said:


> I have nothing solid on where my infection came from. I did bring in some queens previous summer but it did not show up till spring. Lost one nuc out of 13 colonies overwinter and one of the 12 survivors was slow getting going. Had no inkling yet of EFB for another month and did some combining etc. in the meantime with some of the other colonies slow to build up. Sadder but wiser now. Good sailing for a few years until this spring Sackrood showed up. Back to school for further education! What next?
> 
> I had visited a few other yards previous autumn and thought it possible I may have brought it home on my boot soles.


I'm getting really freakish about what I let into the yard. Inspectors come with the same jacket/veil used everywhere, but they wear nitrile gloves and are trained in how not to pass stuff along. Also the fact that they get 4-5 cases of AFB per year in a state with 7200 beeks probably speaks well to their methods. For everyone else, I make sure they know not to bring frames/tools/etc onto the property. 

Had a guy that does migratory wanting some stuff that would have facilitated bringing bees in here briefly (like only a nuc or two). He was making fun of the general paranoia of beeks about this. I decided I would rather give him nucs than have migratory nucs brought here, even briefly. If he gets some deal-breaking sickness in his bees, he can destroy the hives and start all over, as he is well accustomed to moving bees. Here I have years and $ invested and while I could set up somewhere else, I would not, as it would defeat their purpose for being here.


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## squarepeg

smart call joe.


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## squarepeg

dotg, if you are willing and able please let us know how things are going with your efb remediation.


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## AHudd

joebeewhisperer said:


> I'm getting really freakish about what I let into the yard. Inspectors come with the same jacket/veil used everywhere, but they wear nitrile gloves and are trained in how not to pass stuff along. Also the fact that they get 4-5 cases of AFB per year in a state with 7200 beeks probably speaks well to their methods. For everyone else, I make sure they know not to bring frames/tools/etc onto the property.
> 
> Had a guy that does migratory wanting some stuff that would have facilitated bringing bees in here briefly (like only a nuc or two). He was making fun of the general paranoia of beeks about this. I decided I would rather give him nucs than have migratory nucs brought here, even briefly. If he gets some deal-breaking sickness in his bees, he can destroy the hives and start all over, as he is well accustomed to moving bees. Here I have years and $ invested and while I could set up somewhere else, I would not, as it would defeat their purpose for being here.


I have the same concerns, only more so.

Alex


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## Dotg

squarepeg said:


> dotg, if you are willing and able please let us know how things are going with your efb remediation.


I did a shook swarm last week and started everyone on sugar water. I should have started feeding them all two weeks earlier I think, but I wasn’t sure. I was looking at the reports of drought and just wondering if there is nectar in those flowers. They did have honey, so I thought they were fine, but now I’m thinking I should have fed them all when the drought started anyway? Regardless of stores?
With the shook swarm needing sugar I figured I’d feed them all as I hear feeding just one is a way to set off robbing.
Anyway I am thinking it’ll take some time to see whether or not they pull through. I will update as I learn more.


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## squarepeg

the bees shouldn't starve if they have honey in the hive, but other operations can be curtailed during dearth periods like wax making and brood rearing.

if your colonies are new and in establishment mode, i.e. needing to draw wax and store resources in that wax for wintering, then yes, it would have been good to have provided syrup to facilitate the wax making, brooding, and food storage.

if the colonies are established and have enough honey to avoid starvation, and if you have honey supers on the hive, then you risk your honey crop becoming tainted with the syrup.

robbing while feeding syrup is best avoided by having the feeder completely inside the hive, and not using any scented additives to the syrup.

not a bad idea to have your entrances reduced not only to avoid robbing, but to also slow down any efb drift.

hoping for the best for you and your bees dotg. many thanks for the update.


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