# Fined for OAV



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

So if were selling are honey we can't use any non approved chemicals ? http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?195371-Adees-fined-for-unapproved-chemical-use


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

That's my understanding. Not only that, you must use approved chems exactly as labelled.


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

The definition of a pesticide is a substances meant for preventing, destroying, injure or mitigating any pest. This means you better not get caught doing sugar shakes and using FGMO


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## VolunteerK9 (Aug 19, 2011)

danno said:


> This means you better not get caught doing sugar shakes and using FGMO


I agree. Ive never understood how off label oxalic, formic, sugar, FGMO usage has always managed to slide into conversations so freely and openly but Taktic and Mavrik conversations are highly frowned upon.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here's my understanding of the situation: A _registered _pesticide such as oxalic acid must be used according to its label. Since it is not labeled for use within a beehive, such use would be unlawful.

Sugar, on the other hand, is not a _registered _pesticide. So, it is not a violation of the "label" to use sugar in any manner you choose, including inside a beehive.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Guys I use a wood bleach to bleach my frames in the hive not a registered pesticide, as it does not harm the bees I do so when the bees are all in the hive, they must help to spread it around. A funny thing about bleached frames, the mites don't like them so they all leave home, so if the employment prevention agency does not like that they may go jump in a lake of their choosing
John


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## knute (Mar 10, 2013)

Graham:

I looked up the registered status of oxalic acid, and found an interesting EPA fact sheet for oxalic acid:

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/4070fact.pdf

One excerpt: 
"EPA relied on data available in the scientific literature to assess the
environmental fate and transport of oxalic acid used as a pesticide. Oxalic
acid occurs widely in nature--it is present in the tissues of many plants and
algae, serving both to excrete and store calcium. In water, its negative ion
forms complexes with a number of metal ions; and oxalic acid is
immobilized as a result of this formation of complexes. Both aerobic and
anaerobic conditions biodegrade oxalic acid in less than one day."

In addition to studies that have shown that oxalic acid levels in honey from hives treated with oxalic acid are approximately identical to levels of hives that were not treated, this is one more data point that supports the hypothesis that oxalic acid will not build up in the hive nor affect the honey. It also raises the question that although one could be fined for off-label use, it appears very unlikely that such use would be identified from testing the honey.

I have inquired of ABF to find out the status of the project they were working on several years ago to register oxalic acid, and I have not yet heard back. The key hurdle appears to be economics (who will pay for the cost of certification if they can't make money off it?) rather than viability or hazard, and the EPA has no incentive to approve on their own. 

A very relevant Beesource thread from 2010:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?237419-what-ever-happened-to-oxalic-acid&p=497993#post497993

excerpts:


> Oxalic dribble is legal in some countries, but unfortunately not registered as a mite control agent the U.S.. Dr. Marion Ellis and Troy Fore have worked to get it registered in the U.S., but the process went dead in the water. No one was eager to step up to the plate to register OA for varroa mite control, since its widespread availability and low cost make potential registrants doubt that they would be able to recoup the costs of registration.
> 
> Breaking news! Dr. Ellis reports that Heather Duncan, EPA region 7 administrator, has taken a leadership role in working to make OA available to beekeepers. She is working with a U.S. company that already has ties to the beekeeping industry to register a packaged product that is labeled for use in beehives to suppress Varroa mites.
> 
> In the interim, oxalic acid it is approved as a wood bleaching agent, it can technically be used in beehives to brighten up one's top bars (hey, there’s nothing like having bright top bars, huh?). It’s only illegal if your intended use is for it to kill mites!


-------
Then, an ominous follow up:



> I guess we will keep having bright sparkly top bars....
> 
> From Heather Duncan....
> 
> ...


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> found an interesting EPA fact sheet for oxalic acid ....

Note that the date on the document linked above is *1992*! Clearly oxalic acid is not a hot topic at the EPA.

I agree that EPA contradictions are a fine example the classic _three blind [government employees] describing an elephant_, but that is the legal situation we are in with regards to "off label" use of substances that are currently _registered _pesticides.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Johno, that is OUTSTANDING.... LOL
Robbin


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

You never know what someone means when they say they don't use treatments, do you.
deknow

]


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## Khakijo (Oct 23, 2013)

John, what do you mean by "when the bees are all in the hive"? Do you mean you do a wash while they are actually in the hive or will be using it post the wash? I am new to bee keeping so may take things bit more literally then some more experienced beekeepers. And wood bleach, do you get that at Home Depot? I am trying to raise bees organically so these types of tid bits are great! Thank you


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

The idea that someone is going to apply OA to bees based upon reading a few "tidbits" they read online is scary. No one should do this unless they are willing to do the research.
I vaporized OA one season...I think it was 2001 or 2002. I have this vaporizer that I paid almost $100 for, and a couple of years ago, someone in our beeclub expressed interest in buying it...so I had it in my car at the next meeting. When I talked to him some more, it was clear that he had no idea what he was going to do with it...he was talking about vaporizing liquid formic acid with it. I decided I didn't want to be any part of what this guy was going to do, and told him that I wasn't able to find the vaporizer so I couldn't sell it to him.
It is easy to dribble or vaporize safely, but if you are not following very specific procedures and/or not thinking about safety at every moment it is just as easy to burn your skin or your lungs.

deknow


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

A useful resource/reference for oxalic acid with regard to bees/hives is Randy Oliver, here:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/

To apply oxalic acid to beehives legally, you must be in a country other than the USA. But no matter what country you do apply OA in, to then claim that your bees/honey is _organic _is highly questionable. Even if you don't apply OA, you can't control what non-organic substances your bees may consume (except in very unusual circumstances.)


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Is anyone aware of any cases in the US where someone has actually been fined or prosecuted for using OA in their hives? I know it is not an "approved" miticide substance, but has OA use ever been legally challenged when not used in combination with other chemicals?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

..see the link in the first post.


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## VanIslander (Aug 19, 2013)

Canada’s _Pest Management Regulatory Agency _is playing hardball these days, too. From last May...

http://www.honeybeezen.com/two-alberta-honey-producers-fined-for-unregistered-pest-control/


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

> ..see the link in the first post.


If I'm not mistaken I think that case resulted mainly from the use of "Fluvalinate" on shop towels. I believe that was the major issue, working around an existing patented product registered in the US and using a home made version. Oxalic by itself is not registered, so there is no conflict.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

No.
Patents have nothing to do with anything here.
If they were being fined only for the shop towels of fluvalinate, that is all that would be mentioned in the violation...it is wishful thinking that the OA is not a violation.
Using a registered (meaning approved for use, not patented or trademarked) pesticide in a way other than as specified on the label is illegal. You are correct that that is why the fluvalinate on the shop towels was a violation.
The OA is also being used as an unregistered pesticide (or if it is registered for something, it isn't for bees, and it certainly isn't a wood bleach formulation from HD). Some substances are GRAS (generally regarded as safe) and can be used freely in all kinds of applications (powdered sugar would fall under this category I would think), but other than that, you can't just decide what you think should go in a beehive that is producing food for people to eat.

deknow


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

what is more I also buy 95% formic acid that has no pesticide label and use it from time to time with an Amrine and Noel fume board so I imagine the Employment Prevention Agency might not like that as well? Tough, I will keep my bees alive any way that I see fit. As for the organic lark, both the substances used are found naturally and I would consider them to be organic even if they are not being used when hives are supered, anyway some vegan who is fussy about these things said that he could not eat honey as it was stealing food from baby bees and it was just bee vomit anyway, besides I sneak up to Massachusetts to sell my poor quality honey LOL.
John


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

deknow said:


> The OA is also being used as an unregistered pesticide


That's true, but I guess I'll go back to my original question, just out of curiosity. Other than this case, with multiple substances detected, has an "OA" only violation ever been prosecuted or fines imposed in the US?


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

johno said:


> Guys I use a wood bleach to bleach my frames in the hive not a registered pesticide, as it does not harm the bees I do so when the bees are all in the hive, they must help to spread it around. A funny thing about bleached frames, the mites don't like them so they all leave home, so if the employment prevention agency does not like that they may go jump in a lake of their choosing
> John


You may mock the EPA and feel smug and superior but if not for ENVIRONMENT PROTECTION LAWS you could look out your window and see what they are seeing in Bejing.
It's all laughs and giggles to mock the government but the alternative is to trust companies like Monsanto and Union Carbide.
I think not.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Is anyone aware of any cases in the US where someone has actually been fined or prosecuted for using OA in their hives? I know it is not an "approved" miticide substance, but has OA use ever been legally challenged when not used in combination with other chemicals?


Did you look at the link in the first Post? Seems like the Adees have.

Those folks openly talking about their use of OA may find these Posts used as evidence against you, should anyone wish to press charges.


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Here's my understanding of the situation: A _registered _pesticide such as oxalic acid must be used according to its label. Since it is not labeled for use within a beehive, such use would be unlawful.
> 
> Sugar, on the other hand, is not a _registered _pesticide. So, it is not a violation of the "label" to use sugar in any manner you choose, including inside a beehive.


OA is not a registered pesticide. If it was the little tubs of wood bleech would be required by law to have a labeling. Instead it has directions for use on the container. Same with sugar. Its all in the manner that it is used that makes it fall into the category. As stated above. Its wood bleech and bleeching frames does not violate any laws. A labeling is the law but directions are not


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

danno said:


> OA is not a registered pesticide.


Perhaps you should read the _oxalic acid_ page at this EPA link:
http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/4070fact.pdf


Here is a snippet from the link above:


> Oxalic acid is *registered *for use as a disinfectant to control bacteria and germs, and as a sanitizer, in toilet bowls, urinals and bathroom premises.


Note the word "*registered*" above. You may not be using OA in a bathroom, but it is still a _registered pesticide_ no matter where you use it.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I am not aware of a single case in the US where anyone has been fined or even reprimanded for using oxalic acid. This is much ado about nothing. It's pretty clear what is going on here, there is no money in it for any company to go to the expense and jump through the hoops required to register an oxalic based product when the competition is an effective penny a hive home remedy. It is commonly used not just in the US but through much of the beekeeping world. It leaves no traces in either the honey or the hives. Who is getting hurt here and why do those averse to treating with it really care? Who here has stirred up or handled a 3.2% oxalic surup solution to see how safe it is to handle? I have gotten droplets in my eyes with only the mildest of a stinging sensation. Does it follow that every type of fuel we put in our smokers (now there is something dangerous) also be registered? How many times have I read posts on this forum from beekeepers wondering why the Apistan or Check Mite they bought legally through reputable bee supply sources wasn't working? Sorry for venting folks but I just think we should worry about real problems not perceived ones.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Yeah, why in the world is Check Mite still being sold and used in hives? People ought to be concerned about that before OA.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Anyone considering using CheckMite+ for varroa control should consider this from vendor Brushy Mountain: 


> This product is labeled for both Small HIve Beetles and Varroa Mites. It is sold under section 18 registrations and is not available in all states. Unfortunately *many varroa Mites are resistant to this product;* therefore, alternate with different medications. As with all miteacides always follow label instructions.
> 
> http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Check-Mite-Plus-10-Strips/productinfo/481/


(You have to give BM credit for being honest about this product. Note that while it may not be very effective for varroa control, it is also labeled for SHB control. Be aware that instructions for use in SHB control are substantially different than for varroa control!)


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Perhaps you should read the _oxalic acid_ page at this EPA link:
> http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/4070fact.pdf
> 
> 
> ...


well you got me there but again it is the way its used to kill bacteria and the site also stated the none registered uses for OA like bleeching wood. Just I has said above using a product to injure or kill makes it a pesticide


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If you are using oxalic acid to bleach wood, even the wooden frames [in a beehive], then you are not using it as a pesticide. Using oxalic acid to bleach wood is a lawful use. However, if you use oxalic acid in a beehive to bleach wood, and then sell contaminated honey, you may _possibly _be in violation of some food safety laws.

If you use oxalic acid in a beehive as a pesticide to control varroa, or any other pest, then that is a violation of US law.

Note, I am *not *saying that oxalic acid contaminates honey. This thread started out as a discussion about the *legal situation* involving oxalic acid used as a _pesticide _in hives. Whether or not oxalic acid is effective (or safe) is not the issue here.

Personally, I think that oxalic acid is _likely _to be safe and effective as a varroa control when used properly. But under current US law, it is not legal to use OA in that manner.


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

Funny how things work here in the USA. I live in Michigan and if I drive 2 hours due east I can legally use oxalic to kill mites. I would be in Canada though. No money to be made so we will never have this bee friendly tool legalized. 
Just to show how common oxalic is in nature this is a link to show the foods that contain it

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/oxalic-acid-foods-list.html


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

One would wonder if organic gardeners using soap and water on aphids and such may be using soap contrary to the soaps label, or any other concoction they may use may make them criminals according to the EPA. I am sure that I could use hot soap and water on any of my hives if I felt the need without any department of Big Brothers consent. Once upon a time America was run by the Rule of Law, now has become the Law of Rulers
John


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Barry said:


> Yeah, why in the world is Check Mite still being sold and used in hives? People ought to be concerned about that before OA.


The beekeeping industry should do something to get checkmite _off_ of section 18. Anyone using this stuff who is also raising queens is likely producing a poor product. Anyone want to volunteer their kids to eat honey from operations where coumaphos?

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-08162007-092313/unrestricted/lmburley.pdf


> 63
> 5.4. Discussion
> The assessment of viability shows good survival (75- 79%) of sperm to week 6
> except with sperm stored from coumaphos exposed drones. Stored semen from the
> ...


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

The EPA link mentioned oxalic acid as an inert ingredient not needing to be reresearched. Since it was written in 1992 I don't think there is very much regulatory activity with oxalic acid.

It is too bad there isn't a third party that could seek national registration for oxalic acid.

While it may have no impact on honey purity, should a regulatory agency be able to prove a beekeeper used it in a off-label application the beekeeper would get heavily fined. 

Tom


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

The link did not clarify the nature of the sanction very well... were they fined for using a non-approved miticide (oxalic acid), or for using an approved miticide contrary to label instructions (formic acid), or both? If the usage of an unapproved substance was the greatest concern, wouldn't they have confiscated the "contaminated" honey? Mixing the two of them into towels does not sound like what I'd expect to see on the label. My labels don't instruct me to mix these things...

I find it surprising that OA is not approved in the US, though... your government seems overeager to approve quite a few pesticides, I wouldn't have expected it to be so reticent with a product as old and internationally widespread as oxalic acid...


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

TWall said:


> The EPA link mentioned oxalic acid as an inert ingredient not needing to be reresearched. Since it was written in 1992 I don't think there is very much regulatory activity with oxalic acid.
> 
> It is too bad there isn't a third party that could seek national registration for oxalic acid.
> 
> ...


Why doesn't your beekeeping federation do that...?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...because they are too busy keeping coumaphos as a section 18 

Why? If it wasn't approved for use in beehives, there would be zero residue limits in hive products.

deknow


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Why is oxalic acid not registered for use? Love may make the world go around, but with government and politics it takes a large sum of money to grease the wheels.
John


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

You know, it's amazing sometimes how the same people who make people (or bees, in this case) sick (like with neonicotinoids), are also the ones who offer the "cure" to their ailments, and to discourage the use of alternative treatments...

And the governments are all too happy to listen to these lobbyists for the sake of "public health".

It's great to have a system that requires sickness to run and whose only worthwhile cures are those who turn in profits, leaving little place for easy-to-mass-produce generics like oxalic acid.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

How would a state bee inspector handle the issue of using oxalic acid if he suspected you were using it .


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

laketrout said:


> How would a state bee inspector handle the issue of using oxalic acid if he suspected you were using it .


You would have to be caught in the act. OA is already present in the hive. The application methods don't use things like cardboard strips, paper towels and grease patties. A few states cracked down on tactic a few years ago because it was applied on cardboardstrips


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## psnolte (Sep 4, 2011)

Funny question amidst all of this. Anyone have any idea how much it would actually cost to research and register an OA treatment with the EPA? Crowd sourcing an extremely common in nature, everyday chemical as a pesticide should be a pretty easy sell, I would think. Would require a ton of people of course, but there are people doing it.

You know, if we don't want to keep grumbling about there being no profit in it and that therefore none of the big corporations will ever get around to it...


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I just wish they would register it and let us do what we have to do to keep are bees alive, I don't like looking over my shoulder every time I need to treat my hives. I just got done with a MAQS treatment , will see how it turns out , I should be good for the winter but the mites will be back with a vengeance in the spring !!!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If it get registered it will get regulated. Then it will be sold as a pesticide and labeled as such and become more expensive to buy. Be careful what you wish for.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Wood bleach should still be avail. ? Is there any way that OA could get in the honey , and is it in honey naturally like formic acid is .


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

From Randy Oliver's site:


> "Varroa mites have been found to be far more susceptible to acids than are honey bees. Of the organic acids, formic, lactic, and oxalic can be used as “natural” treatments in the hive, as they are *all naturally found in honey*. Lactic acid is used to some extent in Europe, but oxalic acid, due to its greater “activity” (dissociation constant) is used extensively worldwide (reviewed by Rademacher 2006, Nanetti 2003, Oliver 2006)....The positive side of oxalic is that it is extremely cheap (pennies per treatment), easy and safe to apply, very effective against mites, and *leaves no appreciable residue in the honey.*..."


(The bolding is mine.) I just bought a new jar on e-bay, so it is readily available.

HTH

Rusty


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

laketrout said:


> Is there any way that OA could get in the honey , and is it in honey naturally like formic acid is .


Yes and yes. This link takes you to a study done in Italy using OAV. A chart on Page 42 lists ppm OA present in the honey both before and after treatment. 
http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/articles/2004/enzo_1.pdf


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

From page 42 of Mike's link:


> Data reported in Table II show no particular increasing of residual OA content after treatments with mean values increased of +1,1% in group A and 4,1% in group B respectively, after treatments.


Sounds pretty much like what Randy Oliver concluded.

Rusty


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

laketrout said:


> How would a state bee inspector handle the issue of using oxalic acid if he suspected you were using it .


Ours says that it is not within his purview.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

> Wood bleach should still be avail. ? Is there any way that OA could get in the honey , and is it in honey naturally like formic acid is .


But wood bleach will not be the registered product. Legally, you would only be able to use the product that was regisitered. Kind of like the way Tactik was used off-label.

Tom


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

Oh my gosh john!if you vaporized the oxalic you would have the frames bleached more evenly top to bottom throughout the hive, you may be giving your girls a complex. I mean how can they hold their heads up when the frames don't match...




johno said:


> Guys I use a wood bleach to bleach my frames in the hive not a registered pesticide, as it does not harm the bees I do so when the bees are all in the hive, they must help to spread it around. A funny thing about bleached frames, the mites don't like them so they all leave home, so if the employment prevention agency does not like that they may go jump in a lake of their choosing
> John


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

laketrout said:


> How would a state bee inspector handle the issue of using oxalic acid if he suspected you were using it .


Apiary Inspectors are not Food Quality Inspectors.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I'm having a real hard time finding a negative side to OAV and I was very skeptical . I guess it would be that it doesn't treat mites on capped larva like MAQS does correct , but with cost so low with OAV additional treatments will take care of that.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

You are seeing what many in Europe and Canada have seen since the 90's


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

laketrout said:


> I'm having a real hard time finding a negative side to OAV and I was very skeptical .


Read what Micheal Palmer writes about his experience. He is very skeptical about the efficacy of OAV.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Did a search for any M..Palmer articles all I could find is he didn't see a big mite drop and still had mites at the end of his oav treatments , is there a better article somewhere or is that pretty much it , also he said he went back to formic .


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

laketrout said:


> Did a search for any M..Palmer articles all I could find is he didn't see a big mite drop and still had mites at the end of his oav treatments , is there a better article somewhere or is that pretty much it , also he said he went back to formic .


This is a link to palmers work with a OA dribble and mite drops are he puts it "very gratifying"
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

scientificbeekeeping.com is Randy Oliver's website. Michael Palmer has many posts at Beesource, but AFAIK he doesn't have his own website.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Read what Micheal Palmer writes about his experience. He is very skeptical about the efficacy of OAV.


Go look at GLOCKS pictures of his count boards on the third day following an OAV treatment. Made a believer out of me...
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...tent-Varroa/page2&highlight=Persistent+varroa


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

got me again Rader My slip sorry but a good article


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