# Q: Breeder Queen Suppliers



## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Where have you bought breeder queens from. 

Did they live up to your expectations in value and performance?

Did you graft enough bees from them to justify the costs?

If you had to order again, would you buy the same ones?

Thanks,


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

if you buy you a $300 Breeder queen and just get you 20 laying queens and it improves your stock. that just $15 a queen keep them let them raise you some Drones next year then get you another BREEDER and redo the process maybe sell a few. Yes it's worth it I think.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I've had a few of Glenn's but since he's retired. I'm looking for alternatives.. 

Who else has worth while queens? I'm slowly collecting a bookmarks and will be placing orders in Jan, or whenever they accept them.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

KevinR said:


> I've had a few of Glenn's but since he's retired. I'm looking for alternatives..


In my estimation there is a very wide gap in the Breeder queen "market" that needs to be filled with someone who will do as great a job as Glenns did. 

If I was young, dumb, and looking to fill a niche' market that is waiting to be exploited because of the untimely departure of the old "standard" I would highly consider this as a grand opportunity.

Not sure there is anyone out there who can or has replaced them or is even on the way to doing so?

Sorry!!!!


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I'm slowly ramping up to do that... I doubt I'll be anywhere near replacing Glenn, but hopefully I'll be doing 100-200+ per week in a few years..

That's part of why I was asking about breeder stock... The sooner I'm grafting/selecting... The better off my bees will be... and any potential customers.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

KevinR said:


> I'm slowly ramping up to do that... I doubt I'll be anywhere near replacing Glenn, but hopefully I'll be doing 100-200+ per week in a few years..
> 
> That's part of why I was asking about breeder stock... The sooner I'm grafting/selecting... The better off my bees will be... and any potential customers.


You are not planning on doing 100 Ai'd breeder queens a week are you? If so all I can say is GOOD LUCK! If its open mated queens that is a big difference. 

What are you looking for? Light, dark, VSH, Russian, German, Carni's, Pollen hoarders, Mutts?


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Not on the II, I definitely have it on my must do list... My queen rearing mentor has all the II gear. I just need to make the effort to get over there and learn.

If I could quit my day job, I'd seriously consider doing that many II queens per week. But for now the time/resource constraints wouldn't make that feasible. 

But I expect that most of the queens I sale for the foreseeable future will be open mated. But, I'd like to graft from a known mother.

Currently, I've been grafting from my 3-4th Generation VSH Italians from Glenn's, Russian, and feral stock that I haven't been able to kill yet.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

http://www.vpqueenbees.com/


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Honey-4-All,

I inseminate about 100 queens per week during the busy season. I estimate that I spend about 35 days a year sitting in a chair collecting semen and inseminating queens. Believe it or not I consider the insemination side the easier part of the job. The time consuming part is raising, establishing and evaluating all of the queens and stock. 

There is a great need for better stock, but nothing comes easy in beekeeping, as beekeepers know all too well!

Joe


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Joe, 

Do you catch the drones like Glenn does on his website? I.e. trap on top of the hive with an excluder for when they try to exit the hive?

Do you store the semen or do you use it the same day/realtime? I read some posts about storing, but I didn't know how viable it would be. In theory, they could make it easier. Collect semen all week, then have a marathon session on Friday.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Kevin,

I collect drones a little differently. I collect drones as they return from their afternoon flights by placing an excluder in front of the hive. This way, the drones have a chance to defecate and I can collect drones from 50-60 colonies.

I spend one day colleting semen, store it overnight and then spend the next day inseminating queens. That is about all the time I can stand working at the microscope. J

Joe


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

KevinR said:


> Joe,
> 
> Do you catch the drones like Glenn does on his website? I.e. trap on top of the hive with an excluder for when they try to exit the hive?
> 
> Do you store the semen or do you use it the same day/realtime? I read some posts about storing, but I didn't know how viable it would be. In theory, they could make it easier. Collect semen all week, then have a marathon session on Friday.


I think drone semen loses half of its viability after a week at "room" temperature.



JSL said:


> Kevin,
> 
> I collect drones a little differently. I collect drones as they return from their afternoon flights by placing an excluder in front of the hive. This way, the drones have a chance to defecate and I can collect drones from 50-60 colonies.
> 
> ...


Don't you lose control over parentage like this?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

OK, I'll say it. Who says a breeder queen has to be II? Especially for those that are just starting out? If you don't have the genetics already at your own place and are on a budget, I would look around for someone who is _successful_ and has many hives you can evaluate. See if you can graft a batch from a hive that seems exceptional and you have some starting stock that is locally mated. There are many things to look for when choosing breeding stock. What those are depends on your goals.

I sell overwintered queens I feel are breeder quality for $75. each. I only have a few that make the cut that I'm not going to use myself and they sell pretty quickly. Surley someone in your area would do the same.

I guess what I am saying is II is great if you can find someone with a breeding program you believe in, have faith in. But Just being II dosn't necessarily mean the queen will be everything you've ever dreamed of. You have to get it from a reputable, established person, like Joe from Latshaw. 
Being able to say you have genetic stock from 'so and so' gets people interested in you and your queens. But having a productive yard yourself with hives that overwinter well year after year and word of mouth from happy customers is what really sells your queens.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Or you can order 20-50 production queens from a great breeder and pick out the one or two outstanding ones and graft/breed from them.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I haven't found anyone in my area that really does this, besides the lady that's been mentoring me. She's the on that bought 5-10 breeders per year, but she's not as actively raising queens as she use to. 

I'm looking to start feeling that gap and was looking for advice on lines that people felt were exceptional. I.e. I grafted off Glenn's VSH, Cordavon, and Min Hyg. Some did really well, while others were a little lack luster. 

I'll probably try to get one from VP queens this year and looking for other possible options. I'd like to try some NWC and see if I like those. Some Russians that I got from a local Russian breeder are doing pretty well in my area, but they have a bit of a temper. 

So far I haven't found any that are a perfect bee, but I keep looking. *grins*


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Lauri said:


> OK, I'll say it. Who says a breeder queen has to be II? If you don't have the genetics already at your own place, I would look around for someone who is _successful_ and has many hives you can evaluate. See if you can graft a batch from a hive that seems exceptional and you have some starting stock that is locally mated. There are many things to look for when choosing breeding stock. What those are depend on your goals. I sell overwintered queens I feel are breeder quality for $75. each. I only have a few that make the cut and they sell pretty quickly. Surley someone in your area would do the same.


I agree with you. And II is only as good as the control of the drones used. However, II or not, drones need attention. If you aren't picking them through II, you should be flooding the area with drones from the hives you want.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Lauri,

I agree with you wholeheartedly! To me a breeder queen has a very specific definition and place in beekeeping and is not for everyone. For someone just starting out, gaining the ability to graft and raise quality queens will do them far more good than spending money on a breeder queen. I talk a lot of people out of buying breeder queens and that that is part of the reason I have a 4 queen minimum order. Pick a good queen from your operation and learn how to raise GOOD queens. 

Dominic,

I look at breeding as establishing a population. There is a lot of diversity in my breeding populations. Collecting drones from 50-60 top performing drone mothers allows me to preserve diversity and make some progress at the same time. I think a lot of beekeepers assume that selecting a small number of breeders and drone mothers makes the fastest progress, which it does, short-term, but is unsustainable over time. Diversity is essential for any population! Preserve the diversity and you have material to work with for generations.

Joe


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Honey-4-All said:


> In my estimation there is a very wide gap in the Breeder queen "market" that needs to be filled with someone who will do as great a job as Glenns did.
> 
> If I was young, dumb, and looking to fill a niche' market that is waiting to be exploited because of the untimely departure of the old "standard" I would highly consider this as a grand opportunity.
> 
> ...


The nitch certainly exists. And those working to fill it already exists. It is not as simple as just making some queens. Most importantly is the opinion effect. I believe Glenn was an exception mainly in that area.

I think it is sad that Glenn simply sold of his stock to unknown sources. no effort was made to legitimately track where they went. It also is something of an indication of the importance of the actual bees in comparison to simply his reputation. It seems to me that nobody thought to try and preserve the lineage.

At any rate filling that nitch may be along time in coming.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

I "thought" his stock went to others that are doing some of the same things. Could be they're waiting to judge performance etc... before just labeling from Glenn's stock etc.. Glenn's worked with the USDA which is still developing and trying to improve their VSH stock. So the genetics are still out there, just not advertised as we were all used to. VP no doubt has their hands full trying to supply part of that niche..


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

How many hives per line would be minimal to start trending/selecting for a queen line. I remember somewhere that 60 hives was given, but I don't know if that was just a swagged.

Obviously more is better.. If you could have 2 million hives to select from, you'd in theory have a faster process/progress. But what is minimal to cut down on maintain genetic diversity?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

JSL said:


> I talk a lot of people out of buying breeder queens and that that is part of the reason I have a 4 queen minimum


Unfortunately that is a real killer for some genuine small queen producers trying to get started. A friend of mine has been working his butt off for the last few years scaling up his operation to the point where he can quit his day job to go full time. I don't know if he can justify the cost of 4 breeders at a time or not - none of my business. But I do know that he has been using Glenn queens so far, and I would guess that the 4/order minimum has had something to do with it. 

As far as not needing II queens to get started I am absolutely sure that is true, but what you *do *get for the cost of a rather expensive insect is a *Brand*. "Producing Quality queens for X years using Glenn Apiaries VSH breeders" is a known brand that produces demand that someone getting started needs. I doubt if you can quite get that with "House Blend" queens.

Also it allows you to concentrate on doing production to the best of your ability while letting another expert specialize in breeding for the most part. For better or worse it is now a fact in animal husbandry - Quality stock producers don't usually run a full breeding program, but they can get all the benefits of a world class bull in a thermos bottle from someone who does.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Joe,

You said, "For someone just starting out, gaining the ability to graft and raise quality queens will do them far more good than spending money on a breeder queen. I talk a lot of people out of buying breeder queens and that that is part of the reason I have a 4 queen minimum order. Pick a good queen from your operation and learn how to raise GOOD queens."

Grafting is easy. I learned and if I can learn with my physical problems (essential tremor so I shake like a leaf and trifocals, the start of cataracts, scarred retina in one eye, etc due to old age eye sight) anyone can. If you can see an egg in a cell under excellent light you can graft. I have zero luck with the normal techniques including the Chinese grafting tools. But, my way the last batch I grafted I got 12 out of 12. Or maybe 13 out of 13? I do not remember. So grafting may be a mental problem but not a physical problem. I did a post on how I do it some months ago on this forum.

There are someplace around 125,000 small beekeepers in the US. Small defined as less than 50 hives. Most under ten hives. I know a bit of genetics. Enough to teach a college course for sure. I am active in performing genetic studies in another species and am cooperating with university people so I understand the need for diverse genetics as well as controlled genetics. The problem is how does the small beekeeper manage diversity and control? I have eight hives from various sources, plus five nucs I am wintering. I do not know how many ferals are around my area. Not too many, but not zero. But, within a couple of miles I have other beekeepers. One with about the number of hives I have who has not brought in any new blood in 30 years and who practices survivalist beekeeping and whose honey production is very marginal these days. One who every year brings in many packages from the south. Last year 100 packages. And, one a quarter mile away from me with three hives. So any queen I raise risks mating with feral drones or drones from one of the other locals. I am more than unhappy with my stock. They are swarm crazy. I had three frames of bees in nucs (deep frames) in a five frame box swarm in August during the dearth this last summer. Any population and they are so swarmy it is unbelievable. This is not a problem I had 30 years ago at all. So it is not management. When a hive gets swarmy the only cure is splits into many nucs so nothing is even close to strong enough to make honey. Do that and you are simply propagating any swarming genetics. Most splits would not survive without aggressive feeding they are so weak. I will not use swarm cells. I killed hundreds of them last summer. The drones from those other local bees are either not getting to my virgins or are as bad as my stock. Probably both to some extent.

I really see no choice other than buy a high tech queen and replace my local genetics. Yes a open mated queen might be fine. But I can not test 20 and select the best. No small beekeeper can do that. I do know that queens from your stock mated with locals can be outstanding producers. I know a friend of yours who raised such a queen from one of your larva and she was the best queen he owned the following year. She made way more honey in one hive than my eight made put together. When I see performance like that why not buy a high tech queen each year for two or three years and actually have real genetics? You cut out people like me with your four queen requirement. That is fine. Your market is commercial guys I realize. Nothing wrong with that. But, you need to realize the hobbyists have a problem and no obvious easy solutions that I can see. We can muddle thru as we have been doing or we can spend the money on what should be a good queen and try to flood our local area with improved genetics. I am going to try spending the money personally. You will not take my money so someone else will get it. Your choice. You have to run your business as see fit and I do not blame you for doing so at all. You can not have different rules for different customers.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I'd love for Joe to sell me one queen, but I understand why he does the 4 queen minimal. An option would be to find like minded people in your area and place a group order, then each take turns grafting from the other.

I'd still like to know the minimal number of hives expected to maintain a line of queens. What percentage of queens to do you replace each year? i.e. If you have 60 hives, do you select the top 6 and replace with 10 daughters from each. Or do you select the top 2 and replace 30 with each. Do you do the replacing every year or every 2 years, since I read alot that say the queens are best after being overwintered. I've seen hit or miss on this. Some queen sere awesome as fresh mated then petered the following year. I'm assuming that it was a poor mating, but it could have been they didn't ramp up fast enough and missed the flow. 

Additionally, what are the top 5 criteria that you select for... Honey, Gentle, NonSwarming, Overwinter, etc...


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

KevinR said:


> I'd love for Joe to sell me one queen, but I understand why he does the 4 queen minimal. An option would be to find like minded people in your area and place a group order, then each take turns grafting from the other.
> 
> I'd still like to know the minimal number of hives expected to maintain a line of queens. What percentage of queens to do you replace each year? i.e. If you have 60 hives, do you select the top 6 and replace with 10 daughters from each. Or do you select the top 2 and replace 30 with each. Do you do the replacing every year or every 2 years, since I read alot that say the queens are best after being overwintered. I've seen hit or miss on this. Some queen sere awesome as fresh mated then petered the following year. I'm assuming that it was a poor mating, but it could have been they didn't ramp up fast enough and missed the flow.
> 
> Additionally, what are the top 5 criteria that you select for... Honey, Gentle, NonSwarming, Overwinter, etc...


I've read that fresh queens overwinter better than older queens. Never heard that overwintered queens performed better... I would find this somewhat surprising, really. It's generally admitted that younger is better, and that long periods without laying (such as being caged) is detrimental to their health.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I believe there quite a few people that requeen in the late/summer fall. Specifically to have a "young" queen that has had time to mature and won't waste her limited sperm during dearth. In my area the bees never truely stop laying, but there are times that the definitely slow down. However, in my area we only get a few weeks of really cold weather, the rest of the time it can't make up it's mind. (30 degrees last night, 65 degrees today...)

I've had quite a number of queens there were significantly better than 2nd year. I'm not saying they where slouches their first year, but they put up one box vs 3 boxes, including heavy splitting. This could be contributed to proper flow, increased number of bees, reaching full laying strength. Just strange things that I have noticed.

I also view the queens that make it through the winter as better stock to graft from. If I have to babysit the bees, then I'm not really interested in keeping them. I'll feed when they are light and encourage that with limited essential oils, but that's about all I do for mine. I don't treat for anything else and I'm sure I have killed quite a few bees because of it. At this point, I'm just not interested in the extra work and money to treat. If this was my entire livelihood and I had few thousand hives. I'd be much more pragmatic about it.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

The trick is finding out who gets breeders in your areas (the larger operations) and getting queens from them. I know it's not always possible this way but there's people on the forums that sell daughters from certain breeders which is the second best option. 

Lauri, when I look at II Breeders I feel it's not such that they've been selected as the 'best' breeder queens available or are superior to open mated Breeder queens, but it's more of standardizing the genetics of her daughters to kind of guarantee a product, especially for a commercial operation requeening thousands of queens per year. No doubt you may get some duds here and there, but with open mating you don't know what you will get in the daughters. 

For example, if I'm looking for a cordovan breeder, and open mate her and half the queens don't come out cordovan, even though they're perfectly good in other ways, i'm not going to be as happy as if I got an II cordovan queen inseminated with cordovan drones and 99% of her daughters are cordovan. Multiply that by 3-10 other traits you're looking at, and while you can flood drones, it still does not guarantee good solid inheritance in all daughter queens as II with known genetics.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Agreed Joe. I'll be ordering some II equipment from you at some point soon. Not to get into the' nitch that certainly exists', but to standardize my lines with some sort of repeatable reliability. I'd also like to freeze some drone semen for use in a few years, to get back to some of my original DNA I feel was exceptional, once that stock has been diluted by a few years of open mating.. My husband has already built me a lab in the barn just for this.

Producing and offering II queens _*must*_ be backed with years of research and development and breeding plan that makes sense.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Lauri said:


> Producing and offering II queens _*must*_ be backed with years of research and development and breeding plan that makes sense.



Couldn't agree more. I bought the II equipment and took Sue's class this year, but I suspect that it will be several years until I will be confident that my queens are ready for distribution outside of my regional area. My plan for the next several years is to (slowly) improve my existing line of bees to make sure they are well-suited for my region. I don't have hundreds of colonies to select from, which is partly why I invested in the II equipment. I also wanted to be able to cleanly transfer genetics, both from outside and within my stock for evaluation and II is the most efficient way for an operation of my scale. Not that anyone here has suggested it, but I find it naive to believe that you could buy II equipment one year and be selling breeder queens the next, which is why I quoted Lauri. Of course, those relying on open mating face even greater challenges, which I'm still trying to reconcile with some of what I read in the TF forum. :lookout:

I used Glenn stock for several years, which I believe really gave my operation a big boost. This not to say that every breeder was good, or even led to viable daughters, but it did move me further towards a better bee. Glenn certainly did fill a niche, and in my opinion, one that will not be easily replaced. I say this because they catered to the general public, offered quality queens at a bargain-price, and offered great customer service. Keep in mind, Tom Glenn stood on the shoulders of giants, like the great people from the USDA labs, Dr Spivak, and Sue Cobey, and others.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Lauri said:


> Agreed Joe. I'll be ordering some II equipment from you at some point soon. Not to get into the' nitch certainly exists', but to standardize my lines with some sort of repeatable reliability. I'd also like to freeze some drone semen for use in a few years, to get back to some of my original DNA I feel was exceptional, once that stock has been diluted by a few years of open mating.. My husband has already built me a lab in the barn just for this.
> 
> Producing and offering II queens _*must*_ be backed with years of research and development and breeding plan that makes sense.


Freezing semen is very expensive. The quotes I got from the machines were from 6000 to 10000$, depending on the capacity you were looking for, and I suspect that price did not include some of the essential (and equally pricy) equipment needed to make those cryochambers work. Since nobody does that in Canada, it's an investment I'll consider when my operations justify it, but as you've got Susan Cobey doing that in the states, it would probably be much more sensible to see if you can't pay her for the service of freezing and storing your desired semen..

I'm also more or less in agreement with your second statement. I'm in agreement if you are working on developing a new stock from untested parentage, but if you are working off breeder queens from quality stock and trying to maintain it, you are essentially just continuing the efforts made by the original breeder, and not starting from scratch.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Brandy said:


> I "thought" his stock went to others that are doing some of the same things. Could be they're waiting to judge performance etc... before just labeling from Glenn's stock etc.. Glenn's worked with the USDA which is still developing and trying to improve their VSH stock. So the genetics are still out there, just not advertised as we were all used to. VP no doubt has their hands full trying to supply part of that niche..



His stock has gone somewhere. so far i have not seen anything that is verifiable as to where they went. Without verification anyone can claim to be using Glenn genetics. rendering them relatively worthless at this point.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

KevinR said:


> How many hives per line would be minimal to start trending/selecting for a queen line. I remember somewhere that 60 hives was given, but I don't know if that was just a swagged.
> 
> Obviously more is better.. If you could have 2 million hives to select from, you'd in theory have a faster process/progress. But what is minimal to cut down on maintain genetic diversity?


Breeding progress is large dependent on selection pressure as well as the quality of the selection criteria. In other words you can make great progress with the correct pressure but you will not progress in the correct direction without the correct things being selected for.

Selection pressure is basically the number of individuals chosen out of the number inspected. so lets say you inspect 10 queens and pick one. that is a pressure of 1 out of 10 or 10%. You really cannot even expect to retain traits without a selection of about 1% or 1 in 100. To make progress you need a selection pressure of closer to 0.1 or 1 in 1000. this means for every 1000 queens you produce you will only choose 1 for future breeding. The more thorough you inspections and the more care taken in picking that 1 in 1000 makes a difference. 

Theoretically you can produce those 1000 to select from from a single hive.

If I could just make up what I would like to see in a breeding program. I would have 250 highly selected blood lines with a min of 5 colones in each blood line for a total of 1250 colonies.

I know of species with only 135 blood lines that are considered seriously bottled necked and plagued with symptoms of inbreeding. 250 blood lines is only barely getting to the acceptable range. If it is even that.

So even the question of how many are enough has more than one factor to take into consideration.


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## cblakely (Sep 6, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> His stock has gone somewhere. so far i have not seen anything that is verifiable as to where they went. Without verification anyone can claim to be using Glenn genetics. rendering them relatively worthless at this point.


Sorry I do not remember the apiary's name, but I was talking to him by email this spring. He was selling mostly nucs and small hives to locals in SoCal and wasn't shipping anything out. So I lost interest rather quickly. It sounds like he bought and just absorbed the Glenn stock into his own. It didn't seem like he was actively cultivating the Glenn genetics or really pushing them.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Dominic said:


> Freezing semen is very expensive. The quotes I got from the machines were from 6000 to 10000$, depending on the capacity you were looking for, and I suspect that price did not include some of the essential (and equally pricy) equipment needed to make those cryochambers work. Since nobody does that in Canada, it's an investment I'll consider when my operations justify it, but as you've got Susan Cobey doing that in the states, it would probably be much more sensible to see if you can't pay her for the service of freezing and storing your desired semen..
> 
> I'm also more or less in agreement with your second statement. I'm in agreement if you are working on developing a new stock from untested parentage, but if you are working off breeder queens from quality stock and trying to maintain it, you are essentially just continuing the efforts made by the original breeder, and not starting from scratch.


$6000 is comparable to the cost of learning and getting equipped to perform II. I looked into it and the cost came out around $5000. I am now in the process of building up my apiary in order to pay for it. I think I will now have to travel to Washington rather than UC Davis for the training.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> $6000 is comparable to the cost of learning and getting equipped to perform II. I looked into it and the cost came out around $5000. I am now in the process of building up my apiary in order to pay for it. I think I will now have to travel to Washington rather than UC Davis for the training.


Cost me about 3000$CAD to get equipped for II, maybe 3500$, and could have been much, much less if I made the equipment myself (few sites tell you how) or purchased a simpler rig, like a Latshaw instead of a Schley. An investment that is easy to get returns on (higher value of queens, higher control of genetics, lower material needs (mating nucs), higher marketability, etc.).

I don't see as many returns on investing in cryochambers. And I don't include learning costs because the art of properly freezing and thawing bee semen looks like it has its own difficulties as well. That being said, of course, some situations can justify the purchase.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

On the subject of II and Semen....

What other places offer mail order semen than VP?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I haven't looked into the freezing details at all yet. But I _am_ somewhat familiar with freezing horse semen. My local vet offers liquid nitrogen storage for horse and cattle semen for $100. a year. I assume this storage would also be suitable for drone semen.
A person would have to collect and process the semen themselves and be prepared to handle thaw process as well. Tails of the thawed semen are usually damaged and the resulting queens would be short lived.(Most likely superceded quickly) The trick would be grafting from them immediately to get your continued genetics from resulting daughters, then, more importaintly, II with fresh semen from the drones from those daughters. 

I'm not sure what 'Machines' Dominic is referring to for collection and freezing. I believe a centrifuge is normally not needed unless semen quality is poor. A good binocular microscope can be found on Craig's list for around $500.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

A -80 freezer would do the trick as well, but liquid nitrogen storage isn't that difficult. Could probably snap thaw semen just like bacterial suspension, pull an aliquot pretty quickly w/o much degradation.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Lauri said:


> I haven't looked into the freezing details at all yet. But I _am_ somewhat familiar with freezing horse semen. My local vet offers liquid nitrogen storage for horse and cattle semen for $100. a year. I assume this storage would also be suitable for drone semen.
> A person would have to collect and process the semen themselves and be prepared to handle thaw process as well. Tails of the thawed semen are usually damaged and the resulting queens would be short lived.(Most likely superceded quickly) The trick would be grafting from them immediately to get your continued genetics from resulting daughters, then, more importaintly, II with fresh semen from the drones from those daughters.
> 
> I'm not sure what 'Machines' Dominic is referring to for collection and freezing. I believe a centrifuge is normally not needed unless semen quality is poor. A good binocular microscope can be found on Craig's list for around $500.


There's the chamber and the controller, the answer I got with the price wasn't all too clear if it included both together or just the chamber. Then you need to adapt the chamber for straws, not the large cattle semen vials. And the liquid nitrogen. And possibly a couple of other things, I don't remember the specifics as I knew I wasn't going to try it tomorrow. There's an article on the subject that was published in Apidologie.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

So this is the list of "potential" breeder queen websites, II and open mated. I encourage people to add to and comment on the suppliers.

This is not a definitive list or a testament to their greatness. 

Just a collection that I have been bookmarking.

http://www.harbobeeco.com/ordering/
http://oldsolbees.com/old-sol-queens/
http://ziaqueenbees.com/index.htm
http://www.vpqueenbees.com/
http://www.owa.cc/
http://latshawapiaries.com/index.php?page=breeder-queens
http://www.bjornapiaries.com/queensbees.html


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Ordered from VPQueens this year, great service and Adam took the time to call me when shipping and going over introduction basics if I didn't know how. Queen ended up getting superceded around week 5 though but that's just the way it goes sometimes. Will get a couple more next year and try again..


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

JRG did you get one that had just been II'd, or one that had been laying for awhile?? Kind of curious .. if there's much difference in introduction, longevity, all that stuff...


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

JRG

Did you get an II queen or one of his open-mated queens?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

II queens are breeding tools, in fact they usually make pretty poor production queens. I wouldn't expect them to last two seasons.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> His stock has gone somewhere. so far i have not seen anything that is verifiable as to where they went. Without verification anyone can claim to be using Glenn genetics. rendering them relatively worthless at this point.


I believe Adam [VP Queens] got a large selection from Tom.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

It was a tested II breeder (meaning laying before shipping). I got her late in the year to just overwinter and make daughters off next year, but thinking back, best to get them early and get something off them in case something happens. I just chalk it up to bad luck for the most part but it was pretty much there one week, gone the next with a couple capped queencells and a few in the works. The one that hatched first ended up being a runty virgin that never did anything. It's just the way it goes sometimes, I have nothing bad to say about VPQueens.

Brandy, introduction they will prefer a push in cage, as there's less chance of rejection. It's not so much that you have to do it that way because they're II, but you want to ensure the bees don't kill off that expensive queen. Longevity, as someone else stated, most II's don't last more than a season from what I've gathered from previous topics on it and you don't want them heading huge colonies, keep their laying down to a minimum.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Thanks JRG, just curious. I've noticed a big difference with my own II"s and the II's I've gotten from others in the past. Since there's not as much disclosure as to the amount of semen dosage in the II's being sent, it's just a guesstimate on what, where, how, etc....It's also interesting to see how long it takes before the II queens kick in and start laying. But I know Adam is giving them the full dose, anyway, again, just curious..


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

She was laying quick, I forgot to mention that, but again, she was tested before shipping. She was released the next day after introduction, eggs were present a few days later.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

How many uL of semen is considered a "full dose". I noticed that VP sells semen by the uL. My queen mentor has the latshaw equipment and took his course. It might be neat to buy some and see how it works on a queen from my stock.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

This was the study I had posted before which lists some common dosages. http://169.237.77.3/courses/beeclasses/IIvsNM.pdf Adam mentioned in an earlier post, only 1ul is stored, the rest is used to help with the migration. Thought that was interesting..


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Anyone know what a single drone delivers?


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

This is the very finest and accurate measurement I could find in my notes, Not Very Much! Good luck!!


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

0.75-1.00 microliters, give or take a little


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Hehe, if that's the case... VP is making a killing per drone... Of course, I'm sure the work/effort/supplies probably off set the cost... 

Get a bigmac meal for roughly the same money...


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

KevinR said:


> VP is making a killing per drone...


Give it a whirl and report back on that easy money


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I already said that it probably doesn't work out... But if it's 1ul per drone.. they sell it for 8 bucks.. On paper that is a 8 dollar drone..... 

But in reality, I know that it takes time, effort, and material to do it... 

My plan is to raise/sell queens.... Who knows it may include the semen someday.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

KevinR said:


> I already said that it probably doesn't work out... But if it's 1ul per drone.. they sell it for 8 bucks.. On paper that is a 8 dollar drone.....


You are assuming, every drone is harvested successfully, which I highly doubt. Then, another assumption, it costs nothing to have somebody do the harvesting, and nothing for the containers in which it is stored.

At 8 dollars a pop, my guess is, from a financial point of view, not worth the bother / hassle, and only something one would do, to make the product actually available, because once the dust settles, there is no profit in it, and could well be a loss if the time is counted at a highly qualified professional rate. Lawyers bill out at 8 bucks a minute, just as a for example. By the time one counts the time to do the harvest, the time involved in prepping and shipping, then the administrative time involved in billing and receiving, me thinks 8 bucks sounds cheap like dirt, especially considering the highly specialized nature of the product.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Grozzie2,

You are correct. There is such a high failure rate with shipping semen that the time and effort involved was not worth the trouble. It is true, semen can be stored and shipped and if everything works correctly, it is a valuable tool. However, semen is very fragile and shipping conditions are out of my control.

Joe


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

grozzie2 said:


> Another assumption, it costs nothing to have somebody do the harvesting, and nothing for the containers in which it is stored.


I didn't make those assumptions... I said that it probably doesn't work out.. and that in reality it takes time, effort, and material to do it....

I would assume that VP has a pretty successful extraction rate... In other words, I expect they squish a lot drones and that they can tell the mature ones while managing not to suck up the poop... 

I just said on paper... that looks like a high dollar drone...


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

KevinR said:


> I didn't make those assumptions... I said that it probably doesn't work out.. and that in reality it takes time, effort, and material to do it....
> 
> I would assume that VP has a pretty successful extraction rate... In other words, I expect they squish a lot drones and that they can tell the mature ones while managing not to suck up the poop...
> 
> I just said on paper... that looks like a high dollar drone...



Hi all, nice thread!!! 

Yes, nobody is going to need to worry about tax shelters from a huge income gained from producing and selling AI queens!

Collecting the right aged drones; keeping them alive until extraction: and finally extracting their semen properly, takes more time then you'd think was worth it;
(And Yes, making sure everything is sterile). We do enough AI that we've become efficient. However, in AI queen production, good drones producing the right aged semen, is the limiting factor.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

grozzie2 said:


> You are assuming, every drone is harvested successfully, which I highly doubt. Then, another assumption, it costs nothing to have somebody do the harvesting, and nothing for the containers in which it is stored.
> 
> At 8 dollars a pop, my guess is, from a financial point of view, not worth the bother / hassle, and only something one would do, to make the product actually available, because once the dust settles, there is no profit in it, and could well be a loss if the time is counted at a highly qualified professional rate. Lawyers bill out at 8 bucks a minute, just as a for example. By the time one counts the time to do the harvest, the time involved in prepping and shipping, then the administrative time involved in billing and receiving, me thinks 8 bucks sounds cheap like dirt, especially considering the highly specialized nature of the product.


Hi grozzie2,
The value in an AI breeder queen is knowing that _both sides of the cross are_ accounted for: that selection took place for the virgin and drones. Sure open-mated queens that are tracked for a season and tested by observing their daughters, are great to use as breeders. However, in a breeding program where one is working toward a specific goal, knowing the parental identity of the drones along with the queen in the AI, one can select with more confidence knowing more about what potential phenotypes (types of offspring) will show up.

Can anyone list or make an example anywhere in Agriculture/Animal Husbandry/Plant Breeding that's not asexual (plant cloning for example), where the breeder_ only_ knows the performance and pedigree/history of the Dam? (In our case, Virgin Queen). 

Not too many examples of the above.

However, when one is using their bees to generate income, the performance of their stock needs to be at or above a certain level and they do not have the time to devote to a selection/breeding program, an AI Breeder Queen or some AI Breeder Queens are not unreasonable to purchase. Joe Latshaw would agree, there are some very large and very excellent operations in Apiculture that purchase AI breeder queens. They know the value that active breeding and selection provides to their operations overall and they make producing AI Breeder Queens worth the time. 


Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

grozzie2 said:


> You are assuming, every drone is harvested successfully, which I highly doubt. Then, another assumption, it costs nothing to have somebody do the harvesting, and nothing for the containers in which it is stored.
> 
> At 8 dollars a pop, my guess is, from a financial point of view, not worth the bother / hassle, and only something one would do, to make the product actually available, because once the dust settles, there is no profit in it, and could well be a loss if the time is counted at a highly qualified professional rate. Lawyers bill out at 8 bucks a minute, just as a for example. By the time one counts the time to do the harvest, the time involved in prepping and shipping, then the administrative time involved in billing and receiving, me thinks 8 bucks sounds cheap like dirt, especially considering the highly specialized nature of the product.


You are confusing sales price with profit. Price is what the customer pays. Profit is the difference in price and what it cost to provide it.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Lauri said:


> I'd also like to freeze some drone semen for use in a few years, to get back to some of my original DNA I feel was exceptional, once that stock has been diluted by a few years of open mating..


We have finally discovered a successful method for freezing/cryopreserving semen at EWU. It actually works unlike the method WSU uses. My goal is to have the study complete and paper out by fall 2014. Results are amazing.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

I remember some years back getting auction notices for breeder queens. They used to post pictures of brood patterns and pictures of queens and genetics.
Is there still something like this happening?
Near me there is a breeder who breeds some of his queens on an island in isolation.


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## VolunteerK9 (Aug 19, 2011)

max2;1025748
Near me there is a breeder who breeds some of his queens on an island in isolation.[/QUOTE said:


> Where was it that Ive heard that being done before? Oh yeah, never mind.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

max, is that the guy from that movie "More than Honey"?


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

JRG13 said:


> max, is that the guy from that movie "More than Honey"?


I don't think so.

His name is John Covey.
Covey Queens
John Covey
PO Box 72
Jimboomba, QLD 4280
Ph : (07) 5546 9294
Fax: (07) 5546 9295
Mobile: 0427 046 966
Email: [email protected]


Caucasian - Caucasica



Naturally mated on a remote island


1 - 9
10 - 24
25 - 49
50 plus

Queen cells


$20.00 ea + P&H
$18.00 ea + P&H
$17.00 ea + P&H
$15.00 ea post free

$4.00 - collect only


Postage & Handling $11 per dispatch

Payment 10 days prior to despatch


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