# Fighting the Rise of Bee Rustlers



## Beeonefarms (Nov 22, 2013)

So sad that shooting thieves is frowned upon


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Is it OK to set out bait hives with Africanized bees?

I just pinged my buddy MSimon to see if he thinks he can engineer a $15 solution.


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## Needo (Sep 10, 2013)

Beeonefarms said:


> So sad that shooting thieves is frowned upon


I bet locking the thieves in a small room with a hive or two, and then play painfully loud music would garner more than a frown.:shhhh:


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, no, I'm not going to _kill_ someone over a freaking bee hive. I love bees - _love_ them. Especially when it's really cold outsi...err, never mind, forget I said that. Anyway, I really like bees; but not enough to spill blood over them, that's just a disturbing idea if you ask me.

That said, I certainly won't just sit around feeling sorry for myself if someone takes off with half my hives. From what I understand, law enforcement agencies in major agricultural areas are usually very sympathetic to complaints about bee theft and aggressively pursue these cases. But if something happens to me and it turns out that the local sheriff's doesn't take stolen bees as seriously as I think they ought, I will not hesitate to become _That Guy_, the Crazy Bee Guy, the guy deputies talk about using names that my momma definitely didn't give me.


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## cnt (Jun 8, 2013)

Out of curiosity where is the black market for bee hives? I've never had a shady character come up to me and say "hey--buddy, you looking for some bees? I know a guy that can hook you up."


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

cnt said:


> Out of curiosity where is the black market for bee hives? I've never had a shady character come up to me and say "hey--buddy, you looking for some bees? I know a guy that can hook you up."


I think for themselves...I certainly would never accept stolen bee hives and I know nobody on this forum, or any beekeeper for that matter, would buy them...I agree with the 9mm solution, or, the "bait" Africanized bees! What a sight that would bee!


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Hate to say it, but sounds like another good reason not to truck your bees to California...


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

This is a good thread.
I had an entire hive stolen. It was just one out of seven sitting right there that was stolen. I think we should put an identifying mark on the frames and the box in an inconspicuous location to help the law identify the bees almost like a brand. A hive is worth $300-$400!


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

According to the article, it's also those darned hobby beekeepers causing a lot of problems.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

I am more the traditionalist...


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

What I find fascinating is that if somebody recommended inducing the demise of a songbird that was eating bees, a moderator would delete the post. It is, however, OK to talk here about killing SHB and mites. Which evidently means bee rustlers are considered a form of life on par with SHB and other parasites.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I thought there was some sort of agreement to not let beekeeper like these talk to the media?

"and say that colony collapse disorder is really a case of “piss-poor beekeeping.”


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

Mbeck said:


> I thought there was some sort of agreement to not let beekeeper like these talk to the media?
> 
> "and say that colony collapse disorder is really a case of “piss-poor beekeeping.”


....and who is most affected by CCD?


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Hate to say it, but sounds like another good reason not to truck your bees to California...


There certainly is a whole stack of them isn't there?


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Ah, Bernard, the pitchfork weapon!


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

My nucs were built on almond bees. They won't have to face that ordeal again. 

We were on pins and needles waiting for our nucs to arrive, knowing that almond bees were needed to build them. So hearing about all the hive thefts and accidental poisionings was an additional worry. If the particular hives on which our supplier was counting were among the victims, we were likely to be left out in the cold.

I'm sure this happened with some nuc suppliers ... bees they were counting on never arrived, leaving them with disappointed and angry customers, and taking the damage further still. And, of course, bees lost on the almond expedition are unavailable for later crops. Bees stolen and kept in California won't make it back east for apples and blueberries.


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## Earthboy (May 16, 2007)

From the article:

"At the same time, backyard beekeeping seems to be growing in popularity, anecdotally at least. The arrival of hobbyists isn’t something that many commercial beekeepers welcome. Some commercial beekeepers actually blame hobbyists for the loss of bees and say that colony collapse disorder is really a case of “piss-poor beekeeping.” Joe Romance, for example, refers to them as “the Birkenstock crowd.”

Wow! "All the bee problems ARE caused by non-commercial beehavers," you claim? Wow!!! I do not know any hobbyist pimping midnight bees. Name one.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Phoebee said:


> Which evidently means bee rustlers are considered a form of life on par with SHB and other parasites.


Yup................pretty much. Thieves are nothing more than terrorists. If you are worried about bringing bees to California for almond pollination due to the chance of having your hives stolen........you have been terrorized. 

And if you don't want to bring your hives to CA for almonds..........no problem, that just increases the value per hive for us beekeepers here in CA!! Supply and Demand is a wonderful thing.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

It is a constant thing in the back of ones mind. Frustrating. Branding only does so much. To bad small gps systems are so expensive. If they could be made available at a reasonable cost it would be great.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

When I got into GPS, the cheapest macro-component was fairly large and cost over $100. When I checked on a replacement several years ago, a single chip did the job, using 4 bands instead of 1. and cost $3 in onesies. I carry a Tracfone that costs $15 that contains GPS, a camera, etc. The only reason I don't use the $10 version is its bad tendency to butt-dial. I think the cost issue can be gotten under control. 

I envision a small device, maybe with a 9V battery, that sits quietly waiting to be asked for a response. Once pinged, it would need a minute or two to get a fix, then would send out a burst with its location, maybe via a cell phone account.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

GOHoney said:


> It's not frowned upon in my yard.


Mine either. I live in AL, we don't shoot everybody down here, but we do have the Castle Doctrine law in effect and I can protect what's mine.


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## oldfordguy (Dec 5, 2009)

It is the perp's decision, not the victim, that determines whether a beehive (or anything else) is worth getting shot.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Beeonefarms said:


> I didnt spend 8 years defending this nation to not be able to keep what is mine here in the good ole USA.. Very true no one should have to die over bees but if you are going to sneak in and rob on my property what else will you be willing to do break in and see if any honey profits havent been deposited yet...


Nah - that doesn't work if you think about it for longer than a minute. The kind of person who will sneak into a remote location where nobody is around to steal some unsecured beehives that he knows are there is exactly not the kind of person who'll break into somebody's house and risk confronting a person in order to steal an undetermined amount of money that might not even be there. Beehive theft is pretty darn low-risk.

What if those people you catch sneaking around your beeyard at night are actually just a couple of young kids with a can of Raid or spray paint? Still okay to kill them? Nahh, come on. Just start yelling and they'll scatter like rabbits. Adults? Same thing. I mean fine, go ahead wave your gun or shoot at the ground, or scream "OVER THE LINE!!!" and tell him that he's entering a world of pain or something. He'll run. Just get his plate and call the cops. And if you're personally attacked that's another story obviously. But otherwise, you don't want to _actually_ kill someone over a beehive. I know I'd be feeling pretty low after that forever, no matter how "right" I tell myself it was.

Maybe it's just a matter of perspective. If someone is commercial - I mean really commercial - I can maybe understand considering hives business property that needs to be protected; but beekeeping is my _hobby_. If someone's in my house and picks up and drops a model ship I've been working on for months, or knocks over and breaks my $2500-dollar telescope, I'm going to be pretty darn uncivil about it but I'm not going _kill_ the bastard.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

If upon entering an outyard I were to catch someone stealing my hives, I would like to think that my actions would be what most characterize as acceptable, moderate and reasonable. (I'd just call the police). I do benifit and am grateful for those that would have what some think is unreasonable, unacceptable and extreme reaction. Thank you! Perhaps the fear of "crazy people with guns" keeps people honest. Don't know, don't care it is between you and the guy that touched your stuff.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Phoebee said:


> When I got into GPS, the cheapest macro-component was fairly large and cost over $100. When I checked on a replacement several years ago, a single chip did the job, using 4 bands instead of 1. and cost $3 in onesies. I carry a Tracfone that costs $15 that contains GPS, a camera, etc. The only reason I don't use the $10 version is its bad tendency to butt-dial. I think the cost issue can be gotten under control.
> 
> I envision a small device, maybe with a 9V battery, that sits quietly waiting to be asked for a response. Once pinged, it would need a minute or two to get a fix, then would send out a burst with its location, maybe via a cell phone account.


Nah, a little 9v battery isn't going to cut it - a device cannot be both "off" and listening for a query signal. It's going to have a constant draw, which means a cell-phone like device is probably your best bet, with the kind of lithium battery those things use that can last quite a bit of time between changes or recharges. A 9v you'll have to be changing out once every couple of days, whereas a cell phone that is only "active" for a minute or two twice a day will give you as much as a couple of weeks on a single charge - much more friendly to a typical remote bee-yard inspection schedule.

Thing is, it'll have to be a specialty device. I'm imagining a unit you can call with a phone number, which when so alerted will take a GPS fix and send the data either as a text message or over the internet as an email (or both?). Even better - and saving significantly more power - would be a unit which is set up not to accept queries, but rather to take GPS fixes on a set schedule and only connect to a cell signal to send the text or email at the appropriate times. It'll still need to be constantly on, but not needing to maintain a signal connection constantly will use less battery. Making a spontaneous position report anytime excessive motion is detected would be a bonus - so that any location report you receive outside of schedule can be assumed to be a sign of a problem - thieves, vandals, damaging weather, or animal predation.

The problem with either idea is the cell signal. That means SIM card, and that means a continuous cost of one kind or another. Any kind of service could _theoretically_ work; but cell service companies being what they are, it's probably not going to be as simple as just getting a prepaid phone and putting its SIM card into this device for example. There might be only certain companies willing to accept registration of these devices, or they might classify it as a special kind of service, which they can charge more for. Even worse if the device maker itself makes themselves the exclusive cell service provider, because they'll have full reign to go through the roof.

Then there's device placement. There's not a whole lot of room in a beehive; it seems to me the most logical place would be attached to the underside of the top cover - in a hive with a telescoping/inner cover set up. In a hive with a migratory cover, the only practical place might be underneath the bottom board. Either way cell reception should be fine; what I'm more worried about is GPS reception. Definitely tricky if attached under the bottom board. Underneath a telescoping cover might be tricky too - big aluminum cover. A wire antenna is the easy way out; but if the thief sees it, he'll rip it out and the GPS is useless.

Long story short:

Specialty device: $$$$$

+

Specialty cell service: $$$$$

=

Total: $$$$$$$$$$

Doable, but it won't be as cheap as a disposable phone even though it uses the exact same cheap technology.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> It is a constant thing in the back of ones mind. Frustrating.


Mine too. I have a couple hives on a property where someone asked me to set up hives, and during the week no one is there. Plus they are on a very busy county highway, and I worry about those hives and have told her of my concern. Leaving them for now but I know it could easily happen. You can't see them from the road but you can if you pull up to the house. My main yards are in gated property, thank goodness.


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## ForrestB (May 26, 2013)

The take-away from this thread:

a) A lot of people think that the penalty for stealing a beehive should be the same as for raping and killing a small child in Texas.

b) Bee "problems" have nothing to do with varroa, AFB, pesticides, monoculture, massive migratory pollination, etc... all of the problems are due to beekeepers who wear Birkenstocks. I didn't know there were people who still wear Birkenstocks, but there must be, because CCD and all of the other winter loss problems? ....yup, it's their fault.

Alrightly then.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

ForrestB said:


> The take-away from this thread:
> 
> a) A lot of people think that the penalty for stealing a beehive should be the same as for raping and killing a small child in Texas.
> 
> b) Bee "problems" have nothing to do with varroa, AFB, pesticides, monoculture, massive migratory pollination, etc... all of the problems are due to beekeepers who wear Birkenstocks. I didn't know there were people who still wear Birkenstocks, but there must be, because CCD and all of the other winter loss problems? ....yup, it's their fault.


Threads like this always bring out those whose answer to every problem involves killing. There's no way to tell blustering windbags from sociopaths so it's little use in discussing anything with them.

There is no mention of the footwear worn by Gabino Jordan Pena, the suspect arrested for stealing Joe Romance's hives but I'd bet he wasn't shod in Birkenstocks. I lost any concern for Joe Romance's experience with that comment. He can lose them all again for all I care.

Wayne


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

ForrestB said:


> b) Bee "problems" have nothing to do with varroa, AFB, pesticides, monoculture, massive migratory pollination, etc... all of the problems are due to beekeepers who wear Birkenstocks. I didn't know there were people who still wear Birkenstocks, but there must be, because CCD and all of the other winter loss problems? ....yup, it's their fault.
> 
> Alrightly then.


This could be just another younger-person-showing-his-age thing, I don't know, but...what are Birkenstocks?


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I googled them. They appear to be sandals. Most of my life was spent in cork boots. Know what those are?
Not that footware is in any way related to bee theft, other than corks can put a world of hurt on a thief. And bees will do the same to anyone wearing sandals.Got it?


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## ahickman406 (Mar 26, 2014)

I found this quote quite interesting from the article.....honestly I have never owned anything Birkenstock.

"At the same time, backyard beekeeping seems to be growing in popularity, anecdotal at least. The arrival of hobbyists isn’t something that many commercial beekeepers welcome. Some commercial beekeepers actually blame hobbyists for the loss of bees and say that colony collapse disorder is really a case of “piss-poor beekeeping.” Joe Romance, for example, refers to them as “the Birkenstock crowd.”"


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I wore them for several years as work shoes. 

http://www.happyfeet.com/Products/C115-LEATHER-SUPER-GRIP__ALC15LTSG2.aspx

I was totally unaware of the sub culture that wore them until I began to. I guess the stereotype is that hippie types are more apt to wear them. I noticed that a specific group of women most often wore them.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

This has been an interesting thread. I too, didn't know what Birkenstock's were, even though I have owned them on a couple of occasions. Also, I didn't realize that we shot the criminals that raped and killed small children in Texas. It took someone living in Spain to notify me of this. And to think that I am a native born Texan. 

I'm a combat veteran, and I don't plan on killing anyone else in my life. If I do, it will be because I am convinced that one of my loved one's life is in danger. I'm in agreement with Mbeck, I don't intend to be a policeman.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Still not sure who the 'Birkenstock crowd' referred to are. If they are the 'hippy' types, well all I can say is they are my best customers. I dont have to agree with their politics to take their money!

As for shooting thieves. Well yes some no doubt deserve it, but in California you must be in fear for your life to shoot someone. That seems reasonable to me. Bees are my only livelihood, but I cannot see killing someone over them.


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## Bee-52 (Mar 18, 2014)

melliferal said:


> Long story short:
> 
> Specialty device: $$$$$
> 
> ...



Why invent a bicycle? Such unit already exists and it is pretty cheap. It sits there in a low power mode until it detects movement and then starts sending its position over satellite comms. The unit is $100 and a service plan $100 per year. Not $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and it is money well spend if you are trying to protect thousands of dollars of investment. It can be placed under a top cover or even on the bottom board, so you'll never find it unless you open every single hive, which thieves don't have time to do.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I can't get the math to work on these tracking devices. Lets say a small commercial operator runs a thousand hives in 30 beeyards. $200 per year per yard to place a device in one pallet per yard.Thats $6000 per year.

If the beekeeper has only experienced a few small thefts over 40 years, what are the odds a thief will take out a whole yard? Which yards to protect?Which pallets are going to be taken?

Now in a big holding yard before almonds, when the thefts seem more common, a few of these placed on strategically placed pallets might make sense.

I do like the idea of other people spending money for the devices , and hopefully taking these thieves out!


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## Bee-52 (Mar 18, 2014)

I would venture a guess that if you are running a thousand hives, $6000 a year is going to be a pocket change for you. Besides, $100 out of those $200 is one time expense.


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## justusflynns (Aug 2, 2012)

melliferal said:


> This could be just another younger-person-showing-his-age thing, I don't know, but...what are Birkenstocks?


If you happen to run across a kinda smelly hippie-chick with hair in her armpits, especially if she is wearing tye-dye, a bandana, or dreadlocks, check her feet. She'll either be barefoot or wearing Birkenstocks. (Glad to be of service)


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I dont know if I will exactly agree that $6,000 is pocket change but its got me thinking about planting a few of those suckers in the next load I send out to Cali. Now to figure the best way to go about stashing them in a hive without having them getting coated in propolis. Hmmmm.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

How about just posting some _signs _warning that tracking devices are embedded in hives?  As that old commercial asked, "_Does she or doesn't she_?" Sow the seed of doubt and encourage them to look for an easier target elsewhere.


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## Bee-52 (Mar 18, 2014)

jim lyon said:


> Now to figure the best way to go about stashing them in a hive without having them getting coated in propolis. Hmmmm.


Ziplock bag


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## mdax (Apr 29, 2013)

I just put the mySpot under the hive bottom, as well as one nestled into my electric fence charger. At $100 for the unit and $100 for the service it's not a bad deal imo









It's pretty small and works great, it sends me emails whenever it moves with the new gps location.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>How about just posting some signs warning that tracking devices are embedded in hives?<<
One large California outfit has a similar warning stenciled on EVERY hive. Makes you wonder..
Do they or dont they---


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## djei5 (Apr 24, 2011)

Phoebee said:


> What I find fascinating is that if somebody recommended inducing the demise of a songbird that was eating bees, a moderator would delete the post. It is, however, OK to talk here about killing SHB and mites. Which evidently means bee rustlers are considered a form of life on par with SHB and other parasites.


Spoke too soon Phoebee, 3 or 4 posts already deleted for insinuating quick and final retribution.
Looks like bee thieves rate with songbirds, (I am opposed to killing songbirds).
My dad used to tell me "Men nowadays ain't got the guts to kill a rabbit, but can sit and eat a stomach full of it"
I say, more so now than ever!


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

As I said, it's hard to tell the difference.

Wayne


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