# Best bee vac design?



## imthedude (Jan 28, 2013)

Hi folks. I'm about to put together a bee vac and wonder which is the best design: the "bucket" or "box" style? Looks like they both accomplish the same thing, but I wonder if one is maybe gentler on the bees than another.

TIA


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?230846-bee-vac

The best.


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## imthedude (Jan 28, 2013)

many thanks for the link. i like the looks of that design and shouldn't be hard to pull together. for that design, how do you deal with the brood comb from a cutout? band it in and insert it into the hive once you get to your bee yard?


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## EuroBeeN (Mar 25, 2014)

I think all those were people making one. I'd like to ask, what bee vac on the market commercially is the best, top 2.


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

I built mine a few years ago based on a commercially made one belonging to a friend. It is a small closed box that get a package bee container inserted into it. The package box has a hole cut it one end to mate with the hole in the outer box that receives the hose for bee pick up. There is extra space around the other 3 sides of the package box. The vacuum hose attaches to the other end of the outer box. This design allows for use of very long vacuum hose (pool cleaning) and the capture box can the carried up an extension ladder by using a shoulder strap.

I also always carry multiple package boxes and switch them out when any box starts getting crowded. When switching out just remove package box and slap duct tape over the inlet hole.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

This should help you build one, but you can order it also, no doubt the best on the market. Easy to build it you have a table saw.


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## djei5 (Apr 24, 2011)

I built the robo; how much better can it get than actually using the super your going to keep them in?
No experience with the bucket types, but I've read of high mortality rates.


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## imthedude (Jan 28, 2013)

bingo robo it is then.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

imthedude said:


> bingo robo it is then.


I'm a woodworking dunce and I built a robovac out of scraps and no. 8 hardware cloth... Mine leaks like crazy but duct tape fixes that up. First job (ever) I vacuumed up about 4 lbs of bees or so, including the queen (by chance). Hardy killed any bees, was awesome. Few days later, had a swarm wrapped around a small tree trunk, we brushed some in but vacuumed the rest, then dumped them in with the brushed bees... Again great. Did another cutout and vacuumed up a couple pounds of bees odd a wall interior and got the queen by chance again... Might have used a bit too much suction but they are all doing well.

Though I've never used any other vac I can't see any other system being better. Just mods/improvements on this one.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Weather stripping will fix most of the leaks unless you have something twisted. I have made several out of 3/4" plywood and like them better.


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

G3farms said:


> This should help you build one, but you can order it also, no doubt the best on the market. Easy to build it you have a table saw.


I built mine like this after watching that video. I've practiced vacuuming up a few feral bees and they were ok. 







I've since added an adapter to the bottom inlet, and found a shop vac at the dump and modified the motor to fit it.
Exploded view without hive body.







Not shown is the top sliding part in the open position.


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Having read about using vacs, watched the robo vac being built, and using a friend's shop-vac on a 5-gallon bucket setup, I would advise you to go with a box (MUCH easier to transfer/handle the bees), as well as try your best to find a smooth hose. I hated the sound of the bees bouncing along that flexible shop vac hose.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

When I build mine I buy the right vacuum fittings from a woodworking supply store.instead of just drilling holes. 
David


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

G3farms said:


> Weather stripping will fix most of the leaks unless you have something twisted. I have made several out of 3/4" plywood and like them better.


You underestimate how bad one can be in woodworking. I use weather stripping. Honestly, it's because I had to cut a few corners (figuratively), due to time constraints, and haven't bothered to fix it up right yet.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Wouldn't a slick surfaced suction hose work better than a vacuum hose that's ribbed on the inside? I would figure that the ribbed hose causes wing and body damage to the bees, where a slick hose would not have anything for the bees to bump in to.


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Brad Bee said:


> Wouldn't a slick surfaced suction hose work better than a vacuum hose that's ribbed on the inside? I would figure that the ribbed hose causes wing and body damage to the bees, where a slick hose would not have anything for the bees to bump in to.


Yes.



F6Hawk said:


> Having read about using vacs, watched the robo vac being built, and using a friend's shop-vac on a 5-gallon bucket setup, I would advise you to go with a box (MUCH easier to transfer/handle the bees), as well as try your best to find a smooth hose. I hated the sound of the bees bouncing along that flexible shop vac hose.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

A similar design. Bees are already in a super and no transfer. Put in place and with time change out bottom board and change out cover. Add frames as required.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

imthedude said:


> how do you deal with the brood comb from a cutout? band it in and insert it into the hive once you get to your bee yard?


http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/removeable-swarm-catching-frames/


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

I have used the ribbed hose for six years now and no complaints. If you are hearing the bees going down the hose and it sounds like you are sucking up gravels, then your suction is too much. Only enough suction to get them to go into the hose, no more. 

Colino that looks good, glad to see my video helped somebody out!


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

If you can find 2.5" smooth hose for cheap let me know, my understanding is that larger is better than smaller regardless of smoothness.


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

I borrowed a friend's vacuum and sucked some bees. Had both vents wide open, such that bees could actually hang on to the tree or wire, and they wouldn't be sucked in unless they tried to fly away. And when they went down the hose, I heard it. Didn't have many deaths, maybe only 10 out of 400 or so, but was wishing I had a smooth hose for sure. Trouble is, not many vacuum hoses are smooth cuz they will collapse.



G3farms said:


> I have used the ribbed hose for six years now and no complaints. If you are hearing the bees going down the hose and it sounds like you are sucking up gravels, then your suction is too much. Only enough suction to get them to go into the hose, no more.
> 
> Colino that looks good, glad to see my video helped somebody out!


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

This is what I am referring to...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/25-x-1-5-Swimming-Pool-Vacuum-Hose-/251444580307?_trksid=p2054897.l4275

Smooth bore, but it's 1-1/2", not the standard 1-1/4" of a shop vac. Not a hard thing to adapt for, esp. using the angled bottom board design above.


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## Bee Whisperer (Mar 24, 2013)

Great job G3. Awesome!


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

G3 (or anyone who has built this and used it), how necessary is the cutout shim? Since the top has screen on it, I didn't really see the cutout shim as necessary, though I can see where it would keep all bees inside when you separate the top vac box. From my experience, most bees would just stay in the hive body anyway, unless a person were to take them home soon after vacuuming and try to merge with another hive or just put a regular top on it. 

Thanks in advance!



G3farms said:


> This should help you build one, but you can order it also, no doubt the best on the market. Easy to build it you have a table saw.


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## imthedude (Jan 28, 2013)

built a robo in probably about 30 minutes yesterday morning, and that's with 2 small boys interrupting me to tell me that one hit the other or one wasn't sharing. ;-) all jokes aside, it's a very easy build and was an easy transfer when i got home with the colony last night. unload them out of the truck, carry them out to the yard, remove the cover from the opening, and let them settle into their new home. how much easier could it get? great design.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

F6Hawk said:


> G3 (or anyone who has built this and used it), how necessary is the cutout shim? Since the top has screen on it, I didn't really see the cutout shim as necessary, though I can see where it would keep all bees inside when you separate the top vac box. From my experience, most bees would just stay in the hive body anyway, unless a person were to take them home soon after vacuuming and try to merge with another hive or just put a regular top on it.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


The cut out shim is not necessary at all, matter of fact I do not use one. Watch the video again about what the shim is for, it is to be able to combine the vacuumed bees with the brood frames with out opening up the hive to let bees fly free. Once you open the vacuumed bees up, the foragers will fly and be pissy, the shim eliminates them from being able to fly free. Now with that said I also do not combine vacuumed bees with the cut out brood on the job site. Yes there is a screen in the top cover, this allows you to open the top for full ventilation, keeps the bees from over heating.

When I am through with the cut out remove the sliding board to give bees plenty of ventilation, they can handle the cold better than the heat at this time of year. In the heat of summer I even sprinkle the vacuumed bees with some water to keep cool. The box of brood that is now rubber banded into frames will have some nurse bees on it still but put them in the shade for sure, if it is a cool spring time cut out put a top and bottom on them to conserve heat, don't let them chill and die. I load and go when it is hot and drive straight to the bee yard and combine and open the entrance for them to fly. Give them a day to settle down and some syrup to give them something to do until the foragers can find some blooms. Vacuumed bees are pissy bees so most times be prepared when you take the top off of them.

Hope that answered your question, if not ask more questions. Sometimes not good on explaining stuff in writing.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

G3farms said:


> The cut out shim is not necessary at all, matter of fact I do not use one.
> 
> .....*Vacuumed bees are pissy* bees so most times be prepared when you take the top off of them.


Amen to that!

One of the reasons that I like the cutout shim with the Robo Vac, I can reunite the bees and brood and then wait till dark to open up the entrance, (saves me a lot or running  ) 

And, by using extra cutout shims you can reunite extra boxes of brood as they are put up, or can add extra boxes of vacuumed bees if the 1st one gets to full. 

Rob did a fantastic job on his design.


Great video George.


Don


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Great info, G3, thanks. Very much along the lines of what I was thinking, though I have only done one vacuum job (just some bees, not a true cutout). If I did this, I would vacuum the bees, take them home and wait until after dark, then merge them with another hive. Take the cutout shim off and slap a migratory cover with a jar of syrup on it.

I may build a shim just for kicks, could be useful for other things. I was told to make one with a double layer of screen if using it to merge, so the bees can't get to each other between boxes and fight. Just for adaption purposes.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

To make a good shim use a plastic propolis trap, they are not as flexible as just a piece of hardware cloth and the bees can not pass through them. Brushy sells them, 2014 catalog, page 48 $6.95. They also allow you to make the slot more narrow. Just take it slow and easy when pulling it out so you do not crush bees that are clinging to it, that is one reason I personally do not like to use one.

Thanks for the "thanks", glad I could help somebody out.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

F6Hawk said:


> This is what I am referring to...
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/25-x-1-5-Swimming-Pool-Vacuum-Hose-/251444580307?_trksid=p2054897.l4275
> 
> Smooth bore, but it's 1-1/2", not the standard 1-1/4" of a shop vac. Not a hard thing to adapt for, esp. using the angled bottom board design above.


You should be using 2.5" not 1.25.


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Page 50/51 in case someone else looks for it. Thanks for the tip!



G3farms said:


> To make a good shim use a plastic propolis trap, they are not as flexible as just a piece of hardware cloth and the bees can not pass through them. Brushy sells them, 2014 catalog, page 48 $6.95. They also allow you to make the slot more narrow. Just take it slow and easy when pulling it out so you do not crush bees that are clinging to it, that is one reason I personally do not like to use one.
> 
> Thanks for the "thanks", glad I could help somebody out.


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Gilligan said:


> You should be using 2.5" not 1.25.


You say "should". What difference, if vacuum (and the venturi effect) is reduced? If I were a bee, I would prefer a trip down a smooth 1.5" to a corrugated 2.5", me thinks. Though I'd say 2.5" shop vac hose is better than 1.25" shopvac hose (which is used with 5-gallon type commercial vacs).


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

It is possible to find 2.5" flex hose with a smooth inside bore ...

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/20...g&matchtype=&gclid=CI6C2sLQhL4CFS1eOgodXjMAgA
You would need to make your own hose connectors, or use dust collector hose adapters.


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Nice find, Rader! About the same price, too, minus the fittings...


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

F6Hawk said:


> You say "should". What difference, if vacuum (and the venturi effect) is reduced? If I were a bee, I would prefer a trip down a smooth 1.5" to a corrugated 2.5", me thinks. Though I'd say 2.5" shop vac hose is better than 1.25" shopvac hose (which is used with 5-gallon type commercial vacs).


This is what the designer has said.

He mentions that shop vac hoses aren't as corrugated on the inside as they look on the outside. This is true as well.

He also likens it to running full speed down a hall, which would you prefer a narrow smooth hall or a larger one that isn't as smooth?

I don't really know... I would rather a 2.5" smooth, which I am about to look at what Radar posted, but so far we have had some pretty good success with shop vac hose.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> It is possible to find 2.5" flex hose with a smooth inside bore ...
> 
> http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/20...g&matchtype=&gclid=CI6C2sLQhL4CFS1eOgodXjMAgA
> You would need to make your own hose connectors, or use dust collector hose adapters.


I'm digging it.

I'm thinking, adding one of these to the intake box and then be able to slide in some hardware cloth to seal it up before pulling the hose off. No need for realizing we forgot to leave an outlet open for the electric stapler and no need to rip hardware cloth off with 8 staples in it when we get home.









http://www.woodcraft.com/product/20...ction-fitting-blast-gate-aluminum-212-od.aspx


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Or go all out and get the 4" version!










Not sure how the pressure drop would work once you got it past a workable hose diameter end piece to the larger hose. Then again, maybe this would allow you to crank up the suck force since it would drop down to "normal" once it hit the 4" hose and then gently guide them down and into the box... but allow you to more easily get them out of the comb and cut out area. I'd think if you kept the end "wand" relatively short you wouldn't have to worry too much about the speed during that section.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> It is possible to find 2.5" flex hose with a smooth inside bore ...


I would be leery of using this type of hose material. Dust collection hose is stationery once installed. It doesn't get pulled over obstructions and used like a shopvac hose. Looks too flexible and too thin of material. Someone try it and let us know. I haven't had any issues with the hose that came with the vac. If I saw dead bees, I'd reconsider.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Gilligan said:


> http://www.woodcraft.com/product/20...ction-fitting-blast-gate-aluminum-212-od.aspx


I just use a rag and stuff it into the hole after removing the hose. Quick and easy to remove and no staple holes in your bee vac.


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

You are correct, a smaller diameter hose will increase velocity with no change in vacuum over a larger diameter hose. Cut the diameter in half, and the velocity will be 4X faster. But open some more ports, and you are back in business.

Laminar air flow will do what it can to keep bees off the walls with either hose, but yes, a larger hose will provide more room for error. When I borrowed my buddies commercial (store-bought) 5-gallon vac, it had 1.25" hose, and I had to open both vents to feel good about using it. With both vents open, a bee could actually hang on to something and not be sucked in, so I feel it was pretty tame. 

Another advantage to using a smaller hose is using a smaller vac... mine is a little 1.5 hp one, and I can run it off the inverter in my truck, making it more portable than my big machine. 



Gilligan said:


> This is what the designer has said.
> 
> He mentions that shop vac hoses aren't as corrugated on the inside as they look on the outside. This is true as well.
> 
> ...


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

G3farms said:


> I just use a rag and stuff it into the hole after removing the hose. Quick and easy to remove and no staple holes in your bee vac.


I saw that in the vid... To me the screen helps in ventilation. And I have a van, so the bees ride home INSIDE with me... The screen makes me more comfortable that they won't get loose in my cab.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Gilligan,

On the dust collector gate I would be worried that the fat flange bump will tear up a lot of incoming vacuumed bees. I would file it thinner and smother.


Don


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I have some of those dust collector gates that Gilligan pictured on my dust collection system. The movable gates do not retract _entirely _into the housing. (Mine came from Grizzly Tools.) There is about 3/8" of the gate end that protrudes into the bore.


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

Here is the best setup I have been able to come up with. All of the ones that pull the bees into hive bodies are heavy for high cutout work. The first one I made worked well, but the vac was hooked into a catch box, so there were two units, and more cords and hoses to keep track of. This one is light and easy to suspend, and has good ventilation as a transport cage when the work is done.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Cub said:


> high cutout work.


How high are you talking?


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I have some of those dust collector gates that Gilligan pictured on my dust collection system. The movable gates do not retract _entirely _into the housing. (Mine came from Grizzly Tools.) There is about 3/8" of the gate end that protrudes into the bore.


Radar, I was thinking about removing that gate completely and only using it as a shim to slide in hardware cloth when done.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Ratchet strap allows you to suspend the hive boxes wherever you need.

Shop vac can be suspended just about anyway you can and as dirty as needed... it's just a shop vac. 

We had ours on a forklift the other day at a removal, yay for bungee cords!


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

Barry said:


> How high are you talking?


Anything over 10' up makes the extra hoses and cords a pain. I did a few that were 25' or higher last season. 

Also, I like to keep the vac very close to the hive itself, to keep the hose length as short as possible. Maybe that isn't as important as I think, but those long hoses can't be fun for the bees to tumble 25' in.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

You're doing a cut out 25' up on ladders? Wow. I like having the vac as far away from me as possible so I don't have to listen to it. I've used up to 3 hose sections at once with no problems.


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

Barry said:


> You're doing a cut out 25' up on ladders? Wow.


Yeah. It's no fun. I am leaving work early today to do one 20' up. I have access to scaffolding, but most of my removals have been on hilly enough terrain to make setting it up more hassle than it is worth.


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## imthedude (Jan 28, 2013)

Cub said:


> Here is the best setup I have been able to come up with. All of the ones that pull the bees into hive bodies are heavy for high cutout work. The first one I made worked well, but the vac was hooked into a catch box, so there were two units, and more cords and hoses to keep track of. This one is light and easy to suspend, and has good ventilation as a transport cage when the work is done.


can you share some info on how you made that?


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Cub, that's exactly like the one I borrowed from my buddy. Didn't much like it, except the portability factor. It was hard to get the bees out into a newspaper-merge box without releasing a bunch of angry bees. Personally, I'd prefer to carry 25-50' of hose up a ladder and leave the hive box and vacuum on the ground, though one COULD pull both up a tall ladder with a rope and tie off to the rungs.

ETA: Well, maybe not quite what he bought. Brushy is where he got his, for those who prefer to buy vs. building: http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Owens-Bee-Vac/productinfo/318/ 



Cub said:


> Here is the best setup I have been able to come up with. All of the ones that pull the bees into hive bodies are heavy for high cutout work. The first one I made worked well, but the vac was hooked into a catch box, so there were two units, and more cords and hoses to keep track of. This one is light and easy to suspend, and has good ventilation as a transport cage when the work is done.


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Here's a much simpler 5=gallon bucket type vac... http://kelleyhoneybees.com/2012/02/10/bee-vac-built-for-removal-this-weekend/


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

Here is the beast in action last night.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

F6Hawk said:


> Here's a much simpler 5=gallon bucket type vac... http://kelleyhoneybees.com/2012/02/10/bee-vac-built-for-removal-this-weekend/


that is pretty much what i made. I just need to extend my suction side protector so bees don't get stuck up there.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Cub,

Makes my feet hurt looking at your pictures, try this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Werner-AC18MT-Tray-Attachment-fot-MT-Ladder-Work-Platform-/310942648580

Also recommend a fall protection line and harness, takes 10 minutes to go up on the roof above your work and secure it, your wife, kids, and customers will appreciate it.

I find the peace of mind also helps me relax while working.

Sorry for butting in, seen the results of too many falls over the years (old roofing contractor). 

Don


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Also recommend a fall protection line and harness, takes 10 minutes to go up on the roof above your work and secure it, your wife, kids, and customers will appreciate it.

I've been 20 feet up a ladder getting stung badly on several occasions. If you are not sure you can remain calm enough to climb down a ladder while this is taking place, you probably shouldn't be doing bee stuff 20 feet up a ladder... but certainly any safety precautions you can take will help. I've pretty much decided it's not worth the risk for a few bees...


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >
> I've pretty much decided it's not worth the risk for a few bees...


Yep! A nuc can be easily bought for $150 or less, would not even get a handful of aspirin at the emergency room for that.


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

G3farms said:


> Yep! A nuc can be easily bought for $150 or less, would not even get a handful of aspirin at the emergency room for that.


I agree. There is no way I'd do a cutout like this, just for the bees. Also, I am a veteran carpenter and have done years of handy man work, on houses of mine and my parents. Ladder jacks, scaffolding, and fall protection are all good ideas and would have been employed for a more extensive job. The terrain steepness of this particular removal made standing on a ladder easier than standing on the ground.

As for the bee vac subject of this thread, I am thrilled with it's performance. Maybe a few dozen dead bees out of 3+ pounds in the screen cage when it was all over.


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

G3farms said:


> Colino that looks good, glad to see my video helped somebody out!


I did a cut out yesterday, I went back this morning and found a cantaloupe size cluster left partly under the floor. Sucked them all up plus stragglers and when I dumped them with the hive, not one dead one. First time I used it, this design works like a charm.
Colino


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