# What size hive boxes are those with bad backs using?



## heus (Apr 16, 2012)

Sorry I dont have an answer to your question but the bad back topic caught my attention. I lifted both of my 2 deep 10 frame hives yesterday on to a hive stand that I made and they were *HEAVY* It was too cold to take them apart thats why I lifted them together. My back is a little sore today.


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## Ben Franklin (May 3, 2011)

Sticky Bear said:


> Having Fusion done on lower back at age 50 and since this is my first year I wondered if I could find out what will be best size hive boxes to use from this day forward. I Have 1 2-deep ready for honey super and 2 single deeps ready for second deeps. I'm not so far into this that I can't change directions on equipment size. Any input would be thoughtful.



I too have had back surgery and fussions, matter of fact five surgeries. I use two brood chambers (deeps) and the rest medium to thin (shallow) suppers. I may end up useing the bigger suppers, not the brood chamber, as brood chambers to reduce the weight. I use five frame nucs for captured hives. They are lighter and I can carry them across a yard it I have to.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I have back issues. I use 8 frame deep boxes for brood and supers. I'm changing now to a single deep on the bottom with mediums from there up. This is in the process of changing to all 8 frame medium boxes exclusively for both brood and supers. I already have over 80 - 8 frame deeps so will probably be cutting them all down, but if I had it to do all over again, I'd use medium depth 7 frame boxes, boxes that are 12 1/2" wide outside edge to outside edge. I think it would be a better size for both me and the bees.

I have a theory that bees prefer odd number of frames vs even numbers in a box. I've also noticed that once they have 5 to 7 frames drawn, they like to start moving upwards as much or more than they want to move sideways. So, I've got my little pet theory that I may start having some boxes made that are 7 frame mediums. Mannlake will custom make the boxes for me no problem, it's just that I already have all of these 8 frame deeps... and my back is such that I don't use power tools, especially saws anymore, so what to do with all these boxes? I may try to fill them with bees and sell them off, and repalcing them as time goes on.

Best of luck to you, and TAKE CARE OF THAT BACK, I hope you continue to recover.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Michael Bush has a page about converting to all medium 8 frame equipment. Here's the beginning:


> My first step in the direction of lighter beekeeping equipment was trying horizontal hives, which I like a lot. But I still had a lot of old equipment around, so I started cutting the deeps down to mediums and quit using deeps and shallows. Then I cut the ten frame boxes to eight frames. If you want to understand why, a ten frame deep full of honey weighs 90 pounds. A ten frame medium weighs 60 pounds. An eight frame medium weighs 48 pounds.
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm



And this page lists common box sizes and their weights:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#lighterboxes

Its not so much an issue of what can you comfortably lift now, a better question is what can you comfortably lift 10 years from now?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I don't have a bad back (hopefully I never will), I have been proactive about caring for my back. When I was about fourteen years old I switched from 10-frame deeps, to all 10-frame mediums, and about ten-fifteen years ago I changed again, to all 8-frame mediums. I'm a fairly strong man and 8-frame medium supers, full of honey are quite hefty. Even 5-frame mediums full of honey have a nice weight to them.

I have concern for those who run deeps, and I hope they can continue avoiding back or other injuries, indefinitely -- but it may be safer for them to switch to all medium supers, or even 8-frame medium supers. It may be financially more economical to run deeps, even 10-frame deeps, but once someone has an irreversible injury that causes limitations, all they can do about it is have regret.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I also have back issues. I have begun to take a couple of 5 frame nucs [full of drawn comb] with me to my production hives and pull honey and put it in the 5 framers. Then I replace the frames with drawn comb. Working very well and much easier on the back.


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## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

I'm switching to 8 frame, one deep for brood, the rest mediums for more brood and honey. I now never lift a 10 frame medium super full of honey, I just pull out capped frames of honey for extraction and use a large feather to brush off the bees. Feathers work far better than bee brushes for me. When the supers are only partly full, I will lift them off. So far my back is doing just fine.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I’m with camero7 on this. Work smarter. It isn’t about the size of the frames or the number of them in the box….it’s how you handle them. I take extra empty boxes into the beeyards. I don’t feel like I have to move an entire box full of honey in one swoop. And, if I’d had fusion surgery I’d be even more cautious. Even a full shallow super can be relatively heavy. I've injured my back before...to the point that I couldn't walk. It scared me. I'm not taking unnecessary chances.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

RayMarler said:


> I have a theory that bees prefer odd number of frames vs even numbers in a box.


There is not much weight difference in the box it is in the number of full frames so just put less frames in the box and use a blank to close up the space. Put the bigger boxes on the bottom and narrower ones towards the top (more stable). I don't see the point in reworking them.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

RayMarler said:


> ... I have a theory that bees prefer odd number of frames vs even numbers in a box. I've also noticed that once they have 5 to 7 frames drawn, they like to start moving upwards as much or more than they want to move sideways...


You may be on to something Ray. Go back and find the old skep beekeeping videos filmed in Germany and see now many combs or how big these skep colonies are. Most were only 8 combs wide with the 7th and 8th (out side) combs tiny. Yes I know that bees are like humans in so far as our work ethic is concerned and that over time the amount of worked wax increases to fill the available space. Just saying.

But when you watch this video notice the amount of lifting and toting that goes along with keeping bees in cow dung hives.


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## ldh1006 (Nov 12, 2011)

I am going to all shallow hive bodies......brood and honey.


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

We had a discussion on this in my local bee club last month. We have one older gent who uses all shallows. We have one woman who likes deeps, but never lifts an entire deep - she always takes an empty box and transfers frames.


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## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

I started with 10-frame medium supers. Lifted a full one and decided I needed 8-frame mediums. I may end up with 8-frame shallows before it's over with. None of them are heavy when it's just frames, but honey is heavy!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I have to deep 10 frame bodies and 3 10 frame medium supers. I chose that to start with due to all I have read on this issue on this site. It is a start and I expect to discover what I like best from there. I see a good chance I may end up with 8 frame boxes before it is over but I don't see me giving up the deep box for brood chambers easily. My first hive so far is two deeps. one for brood one fore the bees stores. I will add mediums above that. That I expect will be my honey.


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## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

Heve you all considered the Horizontal Lang?? I just saw Micheal Bush here in Nashville yesterday. He's currently touring you know? Interesting class and learned a lot at. He spoke of the Horizontal Lang. I had heard of that, but I just never gave it any thought til yesterday. It is Lang hive of whatever size box you choose between either deep or medium. It is one box deep and no need to stack because that one box is long. He said the ideal length is 4 ft but no longer than 5ft. The thing is that far as I know, just like a top bar hive, there is not really any standardization to them as far as length goes, so you have to make them. With the same specs as Lang (except for the length), you have to make a long bottom board, long box, long inner cover and lid. Of course you can purchase frames. For someone that has the wood working equipment, it's a good idea I think.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Daniel Y said:


> My first hive so far is two deeps. one for brood one fore the bees stores.


Are you purposely restricting the queen to a single deep?


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

Thanks for all the advice; I'm waiting for the Doctors to determine how many lumbar vertebrae to fuse 1, 2 or 3. So I should have surgery in the next month with a 4-6 month recovery time. Family is going to help during that time and I want it to be easy for them too. 

Should I be concentrating on making more bees and split my 2 deeps into to hives and take my two single deeps and create another hive from them? Allowing the splits without queens to raise their own queen? We have nectar flow until October.

I sure wanted some honey just for us this year. But would rather have more bees at this point. I can see where using an empty deep to lighten the load could work, going smaller is an option for me since I build my own boxes.


Once again thanks for the input. Being new to this I can use all the advice offered.

Regards, Jack


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I'm an old guy, 73 years and counting. I started last year with three hives of 10 frame deeps with mediums above them. This year I am adding hives. My new hives are all eight frame mediums. I can handle them fine, but I am very cautious about lifting. Remember to lift correctly, by using your legs, keeping the load close to your body, and not rotating your back. You can hurt your back quite easily using poor lifting methods. I would bet that the internet is full of vidioes showing correct lifting procedures. Be careful boys and girls.


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## Yucca Patrol (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm 40 and have degenerative disc disease which has become more and more problematic in the past year. I started beekeeping this spring, as it is something I've wanted to do since I was a kid and it is something I can do at home that is not incredibly strenuous much of the time.

I started with two nuc's, and since they were made from deep frames, I have a single deep box on each of my two hives. Above the deep, I'm using mediums, and plan next year to split my hives using frames from the medium boxes so I can move to using all mediums. The need for this became apparent when I replaced my solid bottom boards with screened bottom boards a couple weeks ago, and I'm glad I don't have a second deep on top of the first one, as I'd like to lift them as rarely as possible.

I can lift a full medium if I am careful, but when/if I harvest honey, I am probably going to move individual frames from the supers into an empty box sitting on my garden cart. 

Although it seems like I am in the minority here, I am not completely disassembling the hives during each inspection in order to find the queen. I just look for a frame that has some eggs or uncapped larvae and I'm happy enough to know that the queen is there from that information without having to do much unnecessary lifting.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I have cervical spondylosis along with several other issues. I have switched to primarily horizontal langs. I use my regular 8 frame langs mostly as single deep big nucs.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

I have some back problems, but not nearly as bad as some folks who have posted. I started 7 years ago with 8 frame mediums, didn't like the build up and strength of the hives, so reverted to two 10-frame deeps for the brood nest, and shallow supers for surplus honey. Works well for my situation, as the times I lift the deeps I'm dealing mainly with brood, and not honey. The shallows can get heavy enough, in a good flow. And Lord knows, I love good honey flows! :banana:
Regards,
Steven


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Paul McCarty said:


> I have cervical spondylosis along with several other issues. I have switched to primarily horizontal langs. I use my regular 8 frame langs mostly as single deep big nucs.


Hey Paul, where did you purchase your horizonal lang hives? I would like to have a horizonal lang at my home in town. Thanks in advance.

Lazy


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

8 frame mediums.


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## Tohya (Apr 6, 2011)

I don't have back problems, but why not just bring a 5 frame nuc with you and move half of the frames to it?


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

lazy shooter said:


> Hey Paul, where did you purchase your horizonal lang hives? I would like to have a horizonal lang at my home in town. Thanks in advance.
> 
> Lazy


I build them myself. I have not found anyplace that supplies them. I have often thought about standardizing my design and selling it locally, but I don't have the resources to build more than one every week or so. Mine are made to be easily transportable and can be supered if desired, with a standard 8 frame super (which I hardly ever do). I actually have gotten more honey out of my long hives than my traditional langs at this point, not sure why. They do require a bit more management. Maybe that is the reason why?

Another reason I like them is that the crazy New Mexico winds can't blow them over - and cows can't knock them down.


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## Gibbus (Apr 22, 2009)

I have a bad back, but I also have a 16 year old son....


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## jredburn (Feb 25, 2012)

The solution for all of you with bad backs and those who don't want bad backs is called Top Bar Hives. * No heavy lifting!* Everything is at waist height. They are cheaper, easier to maintain, produce lots of honey if you use a queen excluder.
I am 76, have had a bad back for years and build my own hives, do cutouts and catch swarms. I make split frames for holding the comb from cutouts that fit into the TBH.
Regards
Joe


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

We should form a user group for 'Back conditions'. 

8 frame deeps and mediums.


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

Deeps and mediums- I had back surgery 2 yrs ago . I dont truck mine a long ways , use a cart for that


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Here's my horizontal/double wide/long hive. It's the width of two 10 frame full depth boxes. It's working well so far.










Matthew Davey


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## VeesBees (Apr 4, 2012)

Now that is a beautiful bee box!:applause:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Matt, what do you think about giving those two covers some "A" frame pitch? A decorative metal strip in the center could cover the crack.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Ace, though about that, but it hasn't been an issue with rain, only a bit of water gets in through the gap in the center. Probably could just use a rubber strip, but just have a sheet of plywood that covers the whole roof at the moment. Which won't work if only one super is added. May just put a hinge in the center of the plywood...

BTW the entrances are under the front of the roof, if anyone's wondering.

Matthew Davey


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

That is interesting, and a nice job. Are you managing them like regular stacked hives?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Sticky Bear, haven't got to that point yet as it's winter here now. Have two queen's with a division board in the center at the moment, but likely to move one to a Nuc in spring, not sure whether I'll be supering one side first and then the other or just putting a single 10 frame box in the center and having half width (5 frame width) roofs on each side. If anyone has experience with this, let me know. This hive was built for experimenting with. 

It's a nice height to work at!

Sorry guys, hope this is not highjacking the thread.

Matthew Davey


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

MattDavey said:


> It's a nice height to work at!


It is now but if you start piling on supers it is not going to be and then you lose the advantage of a horizontal hive. As it stands a horizontal hive can be a back saver but so is picking frames from a Lang. I like mediums over deeps because the smaller frames make it easier to pick frames that are full vs. partially full at harvest time. Of course I also like the weight difference.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Mattdavey and & I agree about getting the hives off the ground. It saves your back during inspections for sure. It also makes it easy to see into the hive too. Elevated hive bases are the way to go if you want to save your back.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The chair looks like it would be used for interrogation purposes. I wonder if that would be acceptable at Guantanamo? Beeboarding


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## danmcm (May 23, 2012)

I don't use TBH yet but the idea is nice keep the working area at belly button height no lifting think i will try this with the moveable frames... Bend at the knees, keep weight close to body, and move your feet. 

Daniel
Maryville, Tn 

Chiropractor


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

danmcm said:


> ...keep the working area at belly button height no lifting think i will try this with the moveable frames... Bend at the knees, keep weight close to body, and move your feet.
> 
> Daniel
> Maryville, Tn
> ...


Do you make house calls Daniel? 

Maybe we should write a govt grant proposal for beeboarding....LOL.....Beeboarding, that was funny!


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

I am currently switching to all 10 frame Western (7 5/8"). Nice compromise between deep and medium.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

The horizontal hive is at a height that is comfortable with a deep super. It also allows you to put things on the side your not working, like having a bench at the right height. So you don't have to bend down. 

As with a deep super on both sides you could put the equivalent of 4 mediums (2 side by side). 6 medium supers (3 side by side) wouldn't be too much of an issue either.

I'm also going to try a couple of 5 frame Nucs on it as well.

Matthew Davey


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Another good thing about horizontal hives - especially if they have a split roof - is that they have a convienient built in table to sit your tools on.

Oh, here is a pic of a few of my hives...









Transportable - with metal roofs to block the desert sun.


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

I took the advice given and I'm leaning towards horizontal hives, even went so far to email Michael Bush for advice. I do have questions on how they differ in frame placement and such, but I’m sure if I stick around here those will be answered too.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Something else not mentioned is that you can kneel beside a horizontal hive when you work your bees and the bees don't even hardly pay attention to you, compared to towering above them and scaring the daylights out of them. However, removing the frames is a bit more systematic than a normal lang. You can't just start pulling, you have to work your way from back to front, for the most part. Not a problem, but definitely different than a standard box.


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

Paul I noticed differences in the two you have in your picture, is it cosmetic or functional changes?


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Well, the brown one was the original hive i first built years back; it started life as a top bar hive. The yellow one is what it morphed into after I built a whole bunch of them and fine tuned it a bit taking into account bee space and stuff like that. I eventually put a wire skunk guard on the front of the yellow hive. It also has a screened bottom board with removeable tray. My newer hives have taller legs, no guard, and simple wire screen floor vents. I use an 8 frame imrie shim for winter feeding, or just throw an 8 frame super on them, and seal the back half with a follower board. I ditched the screened bottom in favor of splitting the hive up when the season is done. 

The legs also fold up on the brown hive so it is not so tall when it is moved. Even though it was not built with bee space being a factor, I have raised three different colonies in the brown hive and so far they have not burred it up like you think they would. Bees love that thing for some reason. 

I was doing maintenance on them when I took this picture. That yellow hive - #7 is my most productive hive this season. It holds 44 frames and is filled just about all the way to the end with bees. I caught them trying to swarm last week and did a cut down split on them and harvested their honey to make room for the second flow in the desert.


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

Would it be possible for you to post more pics, or have you done it in another thread? Plywood bottom and plank siding or entire 3/4" plywood? Michael Bush suggested several migratory tops with a piece of cement back board for waterproofing. Notice you use tin.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Sticky Bear, it's no different from making a standard Langstroth hive. The only difference is that the width of the base and the hive body is double (or triple) the width of a standard hive. Just like placing hive bodies side by side. So that the long sides are together. Use your existing equipment to make measurements. There's no internal walls, and the width of the two is the same as one frame. So the hive takes 21 frames.

The base and roofs are marine grade plywood, with marine grade varnish. The hive bodies are standard pine. My entrances are in the front of the roofs, but there are entrances on the base at the sides. (Instead of at the front on a standard hive.)

I don't use cement sheeting anymore, it's heavier and cracks too easy.

I'll post some more pictures when I get a chance.

Matthew Davey


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Gibbus said:


> I have a bad back, but I also have a 16 year old son....


...who will soon have a bad back


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Nothing special about mine, basically just a lang box that extends back instead of up. My outer cover/roof is in three pieces - each sized for a super and can double as a standard lang roof. Some of these I have added inner covers to, but going without has not been a huge issue. These roofs are also insulated with a layer of insulation sandwiched between plywood. The tin roof is just a piece of tin laying across the top as a heat and rain shield. It is the desert here, and solar radiation is a killer. I size them so there is a bit of wrap around to shade the sides and keep the heat off the box. It is so dry here, I don't bother with marine grade plywood. I use an 8 frame imrie shim for feeding candy in the Winter and a follower board.


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## gunter62 (Feb 13, 2011)

I've had chronic back pain for years, but so far have avoided surgery. I'm currently making the switch to 8 frame mediums. I already ran mediums, so going 8 frame was't a big deal. So far, I love it. The boxes are easy to grab and I can split by the box(which has been my focus this year). 

I will be 50 this year, and this change should help me avoid further back problems for a while. Maybe when I'm 70, I'll dump these 8 framers and make me some 5 framers.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Switching to all 10 frame 7-5/8" boxes for everything except my nuc/queen production yard as 90% of all beeks want deep nucs only!
So all my deeps are getting division boards in them to make them into 2 -5 frame nucs in each box. I do med nucs as well and have been trying to convince the backyard hobbyist newbies that going with all meds is a good thing, some bite and some don't!


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

I'm in Western Colorado and we average less than 10 % humidity and 7 " of rain a year. High mountain desert and solar is a big factor here too. Not knowing how severe my restrictions will be after my surgery I'm hesitant to continue with anything that requires bending or lifting. So I'm assuming you fill the entire box with frames and or use a devider board to keep them in a confined space until they need more. or I want to use an end for a split, correct? How thick of insulation in roof panel? We have to deal with cold during the winter and heat the rest of the year. Thanks for all the input guys, I'm on a crash course here with very little time and I don't want to lose my bees. I still need something to do after the surgery.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I live at 7000' feet in New Mexico - My conditions are probably very similar - but we get more rain, though it is dry as a bone. It gets darn cold here too, and we get dozens of mountain snowstorms in Winter, from October into March. It can get as low as -10 but normally does not stay that way for more than a week or so, then back up to 35-40. I cannot answer how my long hives overwinter in the mountains, as I keep them in the desert primarily. This will be my first year with them up here, but I don't expect any issues. It gets even colder in the desert, but it swings higher in the day. I use a piece of sheathing insulation cut to fit inside the outer cover. My standard langs have quilt boxes, though I don't think they really need them. I was going to make them for my horizontal hives, but went with insulated exterior sheathing, as it was easier and cheaper. I used both kinds - the mylar silver stuff and the pressed wool board. They eat the pressed wool. Not sure I like that.

I fill my boxes as full of frames as I can and add more when they move across the box. Sometimes I use a divider/follower, but mostly not (just in the cold). Just keep adding empty frames in the middle of the brood nest to get them to fill the box. Eventually they will draw honey storage and do the same with it - add empty frames and push the drawn capped honey to the rear. In no time the box will be JAMMED with bees. I think they do it faster than in standard langs. I can find the queen easier in them too. If you use deep frames, you have the equivalent of a 4 box deep lang and you can conceivably get more honey.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Here is a link to the photos of different aspects of my long hive:

http://daveybees.wikidot.com/longhive


These photos show the way the frames go and a side entrance:



















If you are in the desert, don't paint it a dark color like I have. Also my roofs are designed to retain heat better which you don't want. For ventilation, If you have entrances on both ends open they can cool the hive quite well.,

Matthew Davey


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Sticky Bear said:


> I'm in Western Colorado and we average less than 10 % humidity and 7 " of rain a year. High mountain desert and solar is a big factor here too. Not knowing how severe my restrictions will be after my surgery I'm hesitant to continue with anything that requires bending or lifting. So I'm assuming you fill the entire box with frames and or use a divider board to keep them in a confined space until they need more. or I want to use an end for a split, correct? How thick of insulation in roof panel? We have to deal with cold during the winter and heat the rest of the year. Thanks for all the input guys, I'm on a crash course here with very little time and I don't want to lose my bees. I still need something to do after the surgery.


Sticky, the most important thing is to get back on your feet, the bees will take care of themselves. 

You will need the equivalent of two deep hive bodies for your winter (I say that based on overwintering colonies in Cheyenne, WY at 6,000 ft). Your colonies _might _get by with three medium supers, and you could phase out the deeps in time -get help for the first year or two as you work the hives with deep supers. Join a bee club and trade someone for medium or shallow supers. Consider eight frame equipment. For overwintering in Alaska and Wyoming, I used standard Langstroth style equipment with a telescoping cover, with wind protection and one modification: A 3/4 inch hole above the hand hold on the top super for air ventilation.

Also, since you live in a desert, get ready to feed the bees until you have a handle on your honey flows, and how much honey stores your bees need over your winter.

I've seen a youtube video of Russian beekeepers putting just a few frames in a hive body and covering them with canvas and a pillow to restrict bee movement from the open space, but I would not recommend that with our wax moth and hive beetle populations.

My good wife had three disks fused 18 months ago and she is fine now, just can't bend over much. You are not going to be doing any manipulation of supers for at least nine months, probably a year or more....They are heavy, so you might just as well arrange for some help lifting for the foreseeable future. 

Best Regards, 

Leeb


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

I had a visit by a beekeeper from Siberia this week. One of the things discussed was a hive design where the beekeeper opens the hive like a filing cabinet (meaning, no lifting). I think it was a discussion of hives mounted in a trailer for moving from field to field. I asked for some pictures, we'll see what we get. If I get anything, I'll share it with you.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

That file cabinet system is common over there. So are the bee trucks. I believe they use them instead of bee yards.


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

Well folks I have a surgery date set now, July 9th. Going forward with horizontal Langstroth hives at hip height; for those of you who have helped me so far I may be writing you for more details. Thanks to all for the advice.


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## Exquisite Bee (Jun 18, 2006)

When I work my bees, I set up 2 empty boxes right next to me....I start pulling the frames out 1 by 1 and putting them in the empty box at the top. The box at the bottom just keeps the frames off the ground while I load up the empty frames into the top.....but I do this one frame at a time. This 2-box method also keeps the filled frames at a higher level so I don't have to bend over!!! 
Then I am usually to my hive body....If I want to get into it, I do the same, take 2 emptybrood boxes, one on top of another next to me, move frame by frame.....To clean up the frame from extra drone cells, etc., you almost need to pull 1 by 1 anyway. Then, after all the frames are removed on a hive box.....you just have the empty box to deal with....not too heavy. I know a little time consuming, but sure does almost eliminate lifting anything heavy. Not much bending and not much lifting......Hope this helps.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I run all eight frame mediums.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#uniformframesize

I not only enjoy the lighter boxes, but all the same size frames and boxes...


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Michael and others,

Do you find brood management easier with mediums as opposed to deeps as well? I'm just thinking as far as uniformity of hatchouts and quality of brood etc... I've chosen to go with deeps for now as it's the same time for me to put deep frames together as mediums and I get more beespace out of the deeps. I may put on some medium supers for the bees to overwinter with and cap faster later in the season though. Matching all your boxes does make things a lot easier. Exquisite, I like your system. I try as well to set up where I'm going to put stuff before hand as well to keep it out of they way and to have it easily accessible to put the next box down. I also keep an empty box next to me to put a couple frames in as I'm moving through the boxes. Helps keep the bees out of the wind and sun and keeps them calm and I can shake the box back into the hive if any bees fall into it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you find brood management easier with mediums as opposed to deeps as well?

Most of my management is by the box rather than the frame. This is much easier.

> I'm just thinking as far as uniformity of hatchouts and quality of brood etc... I've chosen to go with deeps for now as it's the same time for me to put deep frames together as mediums and I get more beespace out of the deeps. I may put on some medium supers for the bees to overwinter with and cap faster later in the season though. 

If you don't mind 90 pound boxes, deeps are fine...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> Most of my management is by the box rather than the frame.


I like the sound of that.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that medium frames are more uniform in respect to brood than deeps. It seems that with mediums, all the brood is more or less the same age. On a typical deep frame, I commonly find eggs to capped.

I was surely amazed when I saw how Michael manages by the box. Splits are amazingly fast.


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

From what I've been told by my surgeon I won't be able to bend down for 6- 9 months and pick up any weight. That sealed my decision to go with horizontal langs. Michael Bush has been very helpful as well as others. 

I still have more questions but I plan to build 4 of these 4’ long, deeps with 3 – migratory tops on each. Planning on using ¾” plywood for bottom using rabbet joints on all corners, I’ll be using ¾” x 1” x 12” pine for sides cut to Lang deep dimensions. 

Tops I need more info on, I know the dimensions but I need to find out from Paul McCarty how he is attaching his insulation to his tops, sandwich method, Plywood - foam board - plywood if so smaller thickness on plywood? I will be using the tin method as well to cover tops like Paul uses. 

Another question where are entrances located, top, bottom, both, ends, sides? Screened bottom with removable cover, Yes or No? 

I live in a high mountain desert climate where we can have 50 F degree temperature swings with average 10 % humidity, yearly rainfall of 7 “ mostly in Winter as snow. Snow normally melts off in a day or two due to abundant sunshine and low humidity. Summers can reach 100’s and drop to 50’s by morning. Winters are normally 40’s to 10’s for about 3-4 months.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I usually sandwich the insulation between the plywood and a thin veneer so they don't propolize the insulation to the hive. If I don't have a veneer handy, I sometimes make the top deep enough to add a piece of trim as a runner for the same purpose, down each edge. It also works handily to secure the insulation to the top cover. 

My entrances are on the end and are usually just a 1 inch hole with a rotating disk entrance in place. They do need ventilation of some sort, so I drill some 2 3/4 inch holes on the bottom near the brood nest and screen them off (they work good for smoking them too). I usually add a few screened vents in the rear too, usually near the top to let out heat, etc.. These hives seem to work OK. I have had a few of them for several years now. I like the fact I can control how fast they build up by spacing or adding empty frames. Much more convenient and less disruptive than taking apart a stack of lang boxes.


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

Well folks I'm on the mend and looking forward to getting back into bees. I have about another month to go and I should be able to start building equipment again. Hopefully those of you who offered help will still be around.

Sticky Bear


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

I have a bad back herniated disk fused. I use 10 frame on a 4 way pallet with a fork lift. I also keep a prescription of Diclofenac filled at all times and pop one before I go into the bee yard to remove supers and one after. :kn:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diclofenac

I also have a truck with a boom but, If it is just a deep I just lift and grunt. Moving a whole hive I use the boom.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Sticky Bear, I wish you well. I have looked over and over the frame size issue. And from what I can tell bees don't like anything interrupting their brood nest. this seems to be fairly constant from one source of information to the next. It is also fairly consistent that even a deep frame is not deep enough to prevent any break in the brood. If I go back far enough, 100 years or a bit more. I find that at times considerable attention was given to this issue but no real answer was adopted.

In the end the Lang became the hive of choice for standardization. Then I came across this little side comment. The lang deep fraems is the size it is because it fits well on tossed out apple crates that where common at that time. The dimension of the deep lang where determined by trash. Free wood.

I do find it far more of a problem to lift a deep if it got filled with honey. and the break issue is no longer on my list of concerns for now. Very little of the hive I use now I consider has much to do with what works for the bees except maybe bee space and you can see varied opinion on that. I am moving toward med boxes because they work for me. I have not decided on 10 or 8 frame. In the end I am not sure there is a choice that is better for the bees.

Top bar sounds like an answer for your immediate needs. I have one and it will probably be the only one I own. I don't really have a complaint about them as they are just not for me.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

EastSideBuzz;874931I also keep a prescription of Diclofenac filled at all times and pop one before I go into the bee yard to remove supers and one after. [/QUOTE said:


> I have a bad back too but I stopped trying to prove a point and now don't lift anything heavy. Don't fight it StickBear just get 8 frame mediums and you can do all the bee keeping your hearts desire.


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

I went out Sunday 2/18/2013 to add rock candy to all 6 hives and discovered 3 had died due to the extreme subzero temperatures we had for 6 weeks. The 3 that survived are booming and were robbing the 3 dead ones for honey and pollen. Removed the 3 hives that were dead, performed an inspection and discovered they died in a clump trying to keep warm. 1 hive had 60 lbs. of honey within, will process some for gifts and save the rest for splits in the spring. After working with these I'm committed to horizontal Lang hives, the pain lasted into the night. I'm going forward with horizontal lang 44 deep frames hives with a devider board so I can raise splits in both ends and use medium supers if needed for honey extraction.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Sticky Bear said:


> I went out Sunday 2/18/2013 to add rock candy to all 6 hives and discovered 3 had died due to the extreme subzero temperatures we had for 6 weeks. The 3 that survived are booming and were robbing the 3 dead ones for honey and pollen. Removed the 3 hives that were dead, performed an inspection and discovered they died in a clump trying to keep warm. 1 hive had 60 lbs. of honey within, will process some for gifts and save the rest for splits in the spring. After working with these I'm committed to horizontal Lang hives, the pain lasted into the night. I'm going forward with horizontal lang 44 deep frames hives with a devider board so I can raise splits in both ends and use medium supers if needed for honey extraction.


Do you know of anyone that sells top bar Lang hives? Thanks in advance. Lazy


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

No, I do not. One has to build the equipment, but if you look through this thread you will see several good examples on how to it do your self. It's really no different from building langs except the length of the hive body is longer.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Changes for me this last year...
I've gotten all my bees off of deeps and now run only mediums.
I had a carpenter make me up some 5 frame mediums out of some plywood I had out in the barn, and I really like them! I don't have large flows here so 3 to 4 story 5 frame mediums are sounding good to me right now. I am now going to cut down all my 8 frame deeps to be 8 frame mediums for larger hives, when flows permit. Part of my changes are from slow weak flows, part is from the physical strength and durability issues. 

Each beekeeper must weigh the pros and cons of equipment choice. For me, the directions I am going is what seems like will work out better for me in this location.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

It really wasn't the bees that made the change it was you. The bees could care less what equipment you use.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Lazy Shooter. early last summer when i was doing a lot of searching of different hives etc. I cam across a couple of places that sell them.

Here is one source I found in just a few minutes by searching Golden Mean Hive.
http://www.etsy.com/listing/37878794/top-bar-bee-hive-golden-mean-proportions
I know that is a strange thing to search and I am not promoting the golden mean as I don't give it all that much credibility. But TBH's seem to be closely connected to the thinking as well as other. natural, holistic. ethereal or otherwise thinking. But recently saw a comment about horns full or dung getting danced around. OOOOkey dokey. May beat getting drunk and waking up with a hangover. I can't say never tried the dancing part. The hangover. yeah got some experience with that.

Anyway a strange search that might get you some results.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Lazy Shooter ...
> I know that is a strange thing to search and I am not promoting the golden mean as I don't give it all that much credibility.


This comment makes no sense. Here is what _Lazy Shooter_ actually asked about:


lazy shooter said:


> Do you know of anyone that sells *top bar Lang* hives? Thanks in advance. Lazy


A horizontal hive with vertical sides sized so that Lang frames would fit meets this criteria. A Golden Mean hive with angled sides does not.




Daniel Y said:


> But TBH's seem to be closely connected to the thinking as well as other. natural, holistic. ethereal or otherwise thinking. But recently saw a comment about horns full or dung getting danced around. OOOOkey dokey. May beat getting drunk and waking up with a hangover. I can't say never tried the dancing part. The hangover. yeah got some experience with that.


You got all that from a _hangover_? :scratch:


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