# Clustering/Festooning on "honey bars"



## JClark

I don't keep TB hives but if you start packages in the future I'd use all brood bars to start.

In any case, let them get established then slowly work the honey bars to where you want them by adding new brood bars between the honey and brood bars.


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## Michael Bush

Whatever they have built on I would leave. Whatever they have not built on, I would pull out and replace with the 1 1/4" bars.


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## jwcarlson

Michael Bush said:


> Whatever they have built on I would leave. Whatever they have not built on, I would pull out and replace with the 1 1/4" bars.


Would you do that even it it meant breaking the cluster/festooning mass and shaking them off to the bottom of the hive? There is such a tight pack of bees it is tough to tell if there is comb underneath all that mass.


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## Michael Bush

If they are in a big festoon, most of the bees are attached to other bees that are attached to other bars. You won't have that many to shake off.


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## jwcarlson

Michael Bush said:


> If they are in a big festoon, most of the bees are attached to other bees that are attached to other bars. You won't have that many to shake off.


Ok, I understand what you're saying now. 

Thanks for the input all!


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## shannonswyatt

If you are going to use wide bars you would not want them in until they started pulling wider comb, but that wont be for some time. I think a better way is just to continue to expand the brood nest until they stop putting brood in the bars at the end and back filling those combs will honey. If they are still making comb at that time it is likely that they are making comb for honey stores. 

The upside to expanding the brood nest is two fold. The first is the comb will be consistent with the comb around it, and the second is by keeping it open you lessen the chance of a swarm. First year bees can and do swarm.


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## jwcarlson

What's the draw back of NOT swaping in more narrow boards? I'm assuming that I run a bigger risk of cross combing because they have more than the required amount of bee space? Is there a drawback of having them start building comb on the farthest bar back? Can that cause them to artificially feel cramped or do they really care if they are expanding towards or away from the entrance?



shannonswyatt said:


> If you are going to use wide bars you would not want them in until they started pulling wider comb, but that wont be for some time. I think a better way is just to continue to expand the brood nest until they stop putting brood in the bars at the end and back filling those combs will honey. If they are still making comb at that time it is likely that they are making comb for honey stores.
> 
> The upside to expanding the brood nest is two fold. The first is the comb will be consistent with the comb around it, and the second is by keeping it open you lessen the chance of a swarm. First year bees can and do swarm.


I understand this concept, the problem is I had a feeling I should just put all "brood bars" in from the get go... but I let myself overthink when we were presented with the package three weeks earlier than anticipated. I might crack it open tonight and see if there's any comb attached. We checked really quickly Wednesday, but didn't want to break the cluster up.


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## shannonswyatt

Normally the make the nest near the entrance. If I had bees at the back I would probably move the bars once they have some brood. If the bars are too wide you end up with cross comb and burr comb. If the bars are wider than their liking it isn't that they are going to draw down from.the guide and then put in burr comb, they will probably ignore the guide and draw down so that the center of the comb is not in the center of the bar. Unwatched they will eventually be completely crossed. I had one hive last year that would start dead center but on the end the one side was more to the left, the other to the right. I put in a very small wedge and it corrected it. But you can't remove wood from the bars. At least I can't.


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## TheGeneralsBees

I run only 1-1/2 inch bars and they seem to work fine. I wouldn't worry about it.


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## TheGeneralsBees

Regarding the location of the cluster you can just slide the bars forward with festooning bees attached. We did this two days ago with the fellow that I am mentoring. We direct released two queens in his hives three days earlier. One clustered at the front, one at the back. For the one that began at the back we just removed the front bars, slid the back bars (5 of them) forward as a group, refilled the feeder and moved it forward to the back of the cluster and closed the hive up. Checked it today, all good.


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## tommysnare

i know this is probably against the grain and fundamentals of the rules of TBH's but, we have a few top bar hives and we use all 1 1/2 bars. we never used any spacers or thinner bars and in our case,it hasnt been a problem. i understand that generally bees build wider (or we want them to ) honey combs. i guess we are strange because we run 9 frames in our honey supers on our langs hahahaha.

i would definitely ( if ur worried about the bar width) let them get established on those 2 bars with some capped brood then instert the thinner bars accordingly. letem be bees


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## shannonswyatt

Glad to hear that is working for you Tommy. I've heard many people mention using 1.5 inch bars in brood and some using 1 3/8 for everything. Whatever works best for you is the best way to go. But I think that some folks when they start are under the impression that if you use a wide bar they will use it for stores and a narrow bar will be used for brood. The bees will do what the bees want to do with those bars.


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## jwcarlson

Swapped them to 1.25" bars so all they have is 1.25" where they can get to it in front of the follower. Very little wax on the bars. One had about a half a pencil eraser sized spot hanging off of the triangle. The others had some specs on a few places on the bars. Hope I didn't disturb too much... and hope they get to building comb soon. Its been a week... now I'm worried they are queenless or something. Will they build comb without a queen?


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## Delta Bay

Are they taking syrup?


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## jwcarlson

A little, but not a ton. They finally cleaned out their dead between Wednesday and Friday. they have taken maybe a quart of syrup since last Saturday. I saw and suspected robbing, put up a screen and really choked down entrance for a few days. Haven't noticed it since.


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## shannonswyatt

Is it too cold? It is nice here (finally) but it may just bee too cold were you are.
Good move on closing down the entrance. I've seen an amazing amount of bees move in and out of a hive in a building were the opening was hardly big enough for two bees.


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## Delta Bay

> they have taken maybe a quart of syrup since last Saturday.


That's a little less than I would expect. 1.5 to 2 quarts a week would be closer to what I would expect depending on the package size. I would say something is not right if they haven't built any comb. Should have at least a few good size combs by now.


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## jwcarlson

Been in 50s and 60s for 4-5 days couple days above 70. After tonights rain we are back to highs of 40s. Zip code 52733 if you care to look.

And someone else on another thread said that they'll draw comb in the 40s? Is this true?


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## jwcarlson

Three pound package, it may be closer to a quart and a half, in fact it probably has been. But I believe that some of that could have been robbing. What would a queenless cluster do? Would they still build comb or would they langish indecisive? The only wax in the hive was about half a pencil eraser total on the three bars I swapped out.


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## Joseph Clemens

You'd need an awfully large cluster of queenless bees to get any comb built, if then. But with a good queen, it's amazing how small of a cluster can still build comb. If they were my bees, I'd strongly suspect that they were queenless - do whatever I could to verify my suspicions, then correct it, ASAP.


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## jwcarlson

Joseph Clemens said:


> You'd need an awfully large cluster of queenless bees to get any comb built, if then. But with a good queen, it's amazing how small of a cluster can still build comb. If they were my bees, I'd strongly suspect that they were queenless - do whatever I could to verify my suspicions, then correct it, ASAP.



How would an individual find the queen in a cluster of bees? Shake them off into the bottom of the hive and look closely? Are there other behaviors I can key in on for them being possibly queenless?


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## JClark

Not much you can do but get a queen in a cage and see how they react. I've installed packages into fixed frame warre hives with weather the same as yours. According to notes, in one week they had 2-3 combs drawn the length of top bars and half way down the box. In three weeks the whole 8 frame box was full of comb. There was a flow on though. I also let them release the queen over three days. 

Contact your supplier and see if you can get a replacement queen. Even w/out a flow they would be eager to draw comb if you had the sugar water available. Can they get to the feed when it is cold at night?


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## jwcarlson

I have contacted the supplier and they are going to send another queen. I was a bit concerned when they clustered away from the queen the first night. They clustered around her during the evening. The next morning I peaked in the window to make sure they were still there and saw the queen cage with only a couple bees and the bees clustered back towards the feeder. She was still alive and I hand released her because I panicked. Probably should have just moved her back to the cluster in her cage. Maybe she was rejected before it even started? They didn't ball her when I put her under the cluster, but they didn't really react at all that I could see. I was most interested in getting it closed before she could fly off though.


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## shannonswyatt

Sounds like a bum queen.


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## JClark

Yeah, bum queen. They would not leave her like that. When I installed in my warres (w/ windows), I placed the queen cage in the center on the top bars of the bottom box w/ screen facing up. The cluster formed in the top box hanging from the top bars and stretching down to the queen cage. They stayed around the cage even when it dropped to freezing at night until she was released. This is how I knew when to remove the cages--when the cluster was no longer in contact with the cage. The fact that they left her at night suggests she had an issue.


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## JClark

This time place the cage close enough that the cluster can maintain contact w/ the feed device and the cage when cold out.


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## jwcarlson

Thanks all! Queen will be in the mail Monday. Supposed to be rainy and cruddy the next few days so if they didn't go find new hives today in the 80 degree heat, hopefully they will be around for the new queen.


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## jwcarlson

Should I do anything special to introduce the new queen? Should I leave it corked for a day vs. exposing the candy/marshmallow right away so they can get used to her a bit vs. giving them access to chew her out and possibly kill her before being properly introduced?


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## Michael Bush

The bees do not know this queen. You need a gradual introduction. Preferably one that takes about four days. But it's also helpful to not bother them during that time. Candy would work well. I don't know what you will get but usually a queen shipped by herself has some kind of candy that can then be used for the release by exposing it on the outside.


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## jwcarlson

Michael Bush said:


> The bees do not know this queen. You need a gradual introduction. Preferably one that takes about four days. But it's also helpful to not bother them during that time. Candy would work well. I don't know what you will get but usually a queen shipped by herself has some kind of candy that can then be used for the release by exposing it on the outside.


The queen I got originally was in one of those really small cages (California Mini) by herself. I popped the cover off of the hole expecting candy and she almost walked out before I could get my thumb over the hole. If she comes like that again (no candy), is there anything I can plug the hole with that will take a longer period of time to chew/eat through? I'm assuming a marshmallow doesn't take long for the bees to clear out.


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## shannonswyatt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RymOwqkQzN4

I haven't done this, so I'm trusting Don not to steer you wrong.


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## Michael Bush

A marshmallow is better than nothing. They sell a little black tube that can be filled with candy that you can put in the hole. A push in cage over emerging brood is by far the most reliable method I know of for introducing a queen.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#pushincage
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearingsimplified.htm#pushincage
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/QueenConfinement5.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm#ValuableQueen


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## jwcarlson

shannonswyatt said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RymOwqkQzN4
> 
> I haven't done this, so I'm trusting Don not to steer you wrong.


Thank you!



Michael Bush said:


> A marshmallow is better than nothing. They sell a little black tube that can be filled with candy that you can put in the hole. A push in cage over emerging brood is by far the most reliable method I know of for introducing a queen.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#pushincage
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearingsimplified.htm#pushincage
> http://www.bushfarms.com/images/QueenConfinement5.jpg
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm#ValuableQueen


No comb, unfortunately. Would it be better to leave the cage corked for a couple of days and then remove the cork and candy the hole or better to go candy from the get-go and avoid having to handle the cage/open the hive again?


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## Michael Bush

Candy is usually the best bet. I worry more about disrupting them by opening again than about the shorter time. Still I would prefer four days.


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## shannonswyatt

Michael, on packages you free release, or at least sometimes you free release. How long do you recommend the bees be with the queen if you plan on free releasing. The reason I ask is that I'm getting a package that supposedly will have been made up in the previous 24 hours. That seems like too short a time to free release.


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## jwcarlson

Michael Bush said:


> Candy is usually the best bet. I worry more about disrupting them by opening again than about the shorter time. Still I would prefer four days.


So the idea is that you get enough candy that it takes them enough time to eat through. Is there someway to quantify "how much"?

I just made some of the queen candy that Don made in youtube video a few posts ago. It's basically fondont consistency. Any idea how much for 3-4 day release? An inch? I do not have one of those extended tubes so I will have to rig something up somehow.


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## shannonswyatt

Weird. I'm not sure what kind of cage you have. Normally I've seen the wooden cage (Benton cage) with three holes cut into it that allow the queen and attendants to have room and holes in the end for entrance/exits and the JZ cages. I know there are other kinds, but I've not seen queens come in them. You will have to improvise something. I know on the Benton you would want to fill one of the holes up and that would be good, that is they way they come from the bee folks.


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## jwcarlson

shannonswyatt said:


> Weird. I'm not sure what kind of cage you have. Normally I've seen the wooden cage (Benton cage) with three holes cut into it that allow the queen and attendants to have room and holes in the end for entrance/exits and the JZ cages. I know there are other kinds, but I've not seen queens come in them. You will have to improvise something. I know on the Benton you would want to fill one of the holes up and that would be good, that is they way they come from the bee folks.


The last one was in a california mini queen cage. It's about the size of thr first two nuckles on your index finger. This next one will be coming in the mail, though... I'm hoping it will have one of the bigger cages with attendants. But only because I'd feel better. Not for any real reason.


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## shannonswyatt

Gotcha, I received a queen in one of those, but it had an extension on it.


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## Michael Bush

>Michael, on packages you free release, or at least sometimes you free release. How long do you recommend the bees be with the queen if you plan on free releasing. The reason I ask is that I'm getting a package that supposedly will have been made up in the previous 24 hours. That seems like too short a time to free release. 

The mentality of a package is entirely different from an established colony. A package only needs about two hours. A package is a bunch of bees shaken together, often from different hives, who find themselves homeless and queenless. In two hours they will pretty much accept any queen. The mentality of an established colony is they are home things are fine, they figured out their queen is missing in about 2 hours and they start fanning Nasonov hoping to lead her home. They are not desperate for a queen. The have a colony with brood and eggs, they can make a queen if they need to, but they would like to get theirs back. You put a queen in a cage in and they aren't quite sure what to do. Some will want to attack her and some will want to take care of her. After a day they are probably more on the side of accepting her. But four days is a safer bet. If you are in doubt about them accepting the queen, you can always leave them in the package an extra day. You could even set the package in the hive so it gets the Nasonov smell in it, and then release them all the next day. You can leave the queen in the cage if you like, but you have to realize it almost guarantees a messed up comb. With foundation, it's usually just one messed up comb. With foundationless one messed up comb leads to another and you end up with a total mess.


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## jwcarlson

I read something last night that indicated masking tape will slow them down. If I plug the hole with candy an put a couple layers of masking tape over it I wonder if that would be enough.

This package has been queenless from April 5 or 6th. Best case I get the queen in the mail tomorrow the 16th. I hope they can recover. The cluster is still intact, they're still eating some syrup... but I feel like if the queen ends up taking two weeks to start laying that they're pretty much doomed, right? It was also 20 degrees last night... hope they kept it nice and tight.


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## shannonswyatt

Thanks Michael, that makes sense.


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## shannonswyatt

Starting a hive from a package in a top bar is a race. If you have a window and you look in on day one you have an idea of the size of the brood nest. They start drawing comb and eventually it is very easy to see the comb. Before the first brood hatches out you can see that the number of bees has dwindled significantly. It may be the hive rebounds, but I wouldn't expect a huge booming hive this year from that package. If they build up well and make it through the winter you have done your job. Next spring they will have a queen and comb, and it will be quite different.


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## jwcarlson

shannonswyatt said:


> Starting a hive from a package in a top bar is a race. If you have a window and you look in on day one you have an idea of the size of the brood nest. They start drawing comb and eventually it is very easy to see the comb. Before the first brood hatches out you can see that the number of bees has dwindled significantly. It may be the hive rebounds, but I wouldn't expect a huge booming hive this year from that package. If they build up well and make it through the winter you have done your job. Next spring they will have a queen and comb, and it will be quite different.


I've been nervous about this hive since finding the queen cage outside the cluster on the first morning after install. 
It's been an experience if nothing else. 

Thanks to everyone for the help. I will let you know how it goes.

My brother peaked in the window this morning (hive is at his house) and said there's still what he called a "big size cluster" and remains about the size of a volleyball. He said it doesn't look like it has gotten any smaller which has been my observation everytime I looked as well (obviously there's been some attrition since installation. I commented the day I dumped them in that almost every bee was very fuzzy and just looked "young" to me. 

The one thing I will say about the package is that for three pounds... it was a heavy three pounds. I don't have any experience really to judge except for videos I've seen. But the entire cage was pretty much packed full of bees in cluster.


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## Delta Bay

I've been thinking about the behavior of this package and wondering why they would not cluster around the caged queen. There has been times that a loose queen was shaken into packages by accident and the bees become loyal to her. If that was the case they should be building comb but these ones are not. Does anyone one have experience with virgin queens accidently being shaken into a package and what was their observations? Did they build comb or not?


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## jwcarlson

When in the package they were clustered around her, but where else could they cluster really? 
When I shook them out, I dragged the queen cage through the pile of bees and heaped a pile onto the cage before hanging it. My brother checked the 3-4 hours later before it got dark and the cluster contained her cage so we thought we were OK. The first night was colder, somewhere around 30 degrees as I recall. The following morning she was well outside of the cluster with only a few bees on her cage. That's when I hand released her... for better or worse (probably worse?). But that's what my gut told me to do right then. They hadn't chewed on the plug at all. I did not notice them acting aggressively towards her either in the cage or when I released her at the bottom of the cluster. But as I stated before, I did not stick around to see what happened because I didn't want her to take off.

I have noticed that as soon as I crack the hive at all they start fanning away, is this normal? Them trying to get their queen back?
I started wondering if I should have put the cage back in a few days ago to see if they'd start building comb (would it still smell like a queen?).


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## Michael Bush

It sounds like the queen could have gotten chilled. How did she look when you released her? was she active? Lethargic?


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## jwcarlson

Michael Bush said:


> It sounds like the queen could have gotten chilled. How did she look when you released her? was she active? Lethargic?


She seemed OK. She was crawling on the bottom of the hive towards the entrance and I put my hand down and scooped her up into it and then placed her right below the cluster then closed it up. In hindsight I probably should have seen how they reacted to her. She seemed to be moving about as normal as I'd expect. A little clumsy climbing over some of the dead bees on the bottom, though I'd expect that based on how a queen is built. If I recall she was eager to get out of the cage and kind of poked out then fluttered a few inches on her way to the bottom of the hive. She never really "flew" but she didn't just walk off of the cage/my hand.

I did not think her movement/behavior was any different than any other queen I've seen on video moving about. I don't have a lot of base my observations on, however. When I pulled the cork the day I installed them she was quick to try to run out. I expected something under the cork to contain her and had to put my thumb over the hole pretty quickly.

Something else that might be of use:
The top of the syrup can had "DQ" written on it. I'm guessing that meant that the queen was dead upon original arrival to the supplier which would have been April 3rd. Assuming that's true and they popped another queen into the package on the 3rd or 4th that would have put them at only about a day and some change with that particular queen after having been shipped with another for a couple of days. I had an a guy pick this package up for me because he was already driving out to the supplier. He had six cages in the back of his car and I selected one. On of the other jars said "No Queen". I commented on that and he said, "There darn well better be one!" 
The meaning of DQ is entirely speculation on my part. They were clustered around her in the package, readily grouped up on her cage when I put her in the pile, and when my brother checked a few hours later they were clustered around her cage that night.

What circumstances might drive a cluster to abandon the queen in the cold if she's caged? They did cluster closer to the feed and left her not just on the edge of the cluster but a full 2-3 bars away.


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## jwcarlson

Delta Bay said:


> I've been thinking about the behavior of this package and wondering why they would not cluster around the caged queen. There has been times that a loose queen was shaken into packages by accident and the bees become loyal to her. If that was the case they should be building comb but these ones are not. Does anyone one have experience with virgin queens accidently being shaken into a package and what was their observations? Did they build comb or not?


I would be VERY interested to know how they behave with a virgin queen loose in the box and if they would build comb for her. If there were a loose queen is it possible that they balled the one I hand released and the virgin took off for a mating flight the next day (there is certainly nothing to mate with around here just yet)? It was warmer a couple days after install and was warm enough to fly the next day for sure. Looking back at the weather following Saturday afternoon install, it was highs of 57,63,66,66 (all pretty sunny and no rain) and lows each night were 25-30ish.

I'm getting the feeling I need to at least attempt to find out if they have a loose queen in the hive before I throw another caged queen in there for them to abandon/kill. If they have been queenless for 7-10 days how should they react when the new caged queen is originally presented to the cluster? Should I observe this or wire the cage up and drop that bar in place in the middle of the cluster and hope for the best?


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## Joseph Clemens

If they are truly queenless, when presented with the new queen, they should rush to the new queen in her cage, nasonov a great deal and act excited. If they have a queen in their midst, even a virgin, they will likely behave aggressively. 

If aggressively, the obvious difference, will be, many will be biting the cage wire, and clinging to the cage tenaciously (attempts to dislodge them will be difficult). With JZsBZs plastic cages, some will decapitate themselves in attempts to attack the queen through the cage bars. Non-aggressive behavior looks similar, but you will more easily be able to push them away from the cage, though they will quickly return. With experience, you should soon be able to discern the difference. I believe that Michael Palmer has a YouTube video that shows this behavior towards queen cages. I've linked to it for you.


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## jwcarlson

Joseph Clemens said:


> If they are truly queenless, when presented with the new queen, they should rush to the new queen in her cage, nasonov a great deal and act excited. If they have a queen in their midst, even a virgin, they will likely behave aggressively.
> 
> If aggressively, the obvious difference, will be, many will be biting the cage wire, and clinging to the cage tenaciously (attempts to dislodge them will be difficult). With JZsBZs plastic cages, some will decapitate themselves in attempts to attack the queen through the cage bars. Non-aggressive behavior looks similar, but you will more easily be able to push them away from the cage, though they will quickly return. With experience, you should soon be able to discern the difference. I believe that Michael Palmer has a YouTube video that shows this behavior towards queen cages. I've linked to it for you.


Thank you, Joseph. That video is exactly what I needed to see. It seems like it should be relatively obvious when introducing her weither or not they are happy to see her.

I jokingly told my brother that they're probably so ready for a queen that when we put the new one in the cluster will explode three pounds of wax onto the floor of the hive. 

Been too much work the last couple of days to do as much research and reading as I'd like about this particular issue. The new queen will be at my house when I get home, I will be installing her tonight and I have a batch of queen candy made up to improvise a more lengthy release.

Does anyone have experience with a hive (or package in particular) being queenless for an extended period of time? Today is day 10-11.


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## Top Bar

Joseph Clemens said:


> If they are truly queenless, when presented with the new queen, they should rush to the new queen in her cage, nasonov a great deal and act excited. If they have a queen in their midst, even a virgin, they will likely behave aggressively.
> 
> If aggressively, the obvious difference, will be, many will be biting the cage wire, and clinging to the cage tenaciously (attempts to dislodge them will be difficult). With JZsBZs plastic cages, some will decapitate themselves in attempts to attack the queen through the cage bars. Non-aggressive behavior looks similar, but you will more easily be able to push them away from the cage, though they will quickly return. With experience, you should soon be able to discern the difference. I believe that Michael Palmer has a YouTube video that shows this behavior towards queen cages. I've linked to it for you.


So what should I do if they are acting aggressively like this? I have a situation where my queen may have been drowned, or damaged by a leaking feeder. I'm not sure she's dead, but I'm pretty sure she is damaged at a minimum. I have a new queen showing up. How should I handle this situation?


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## Joseph Clemens

Depending on how they behave, usually if they're being aggressive, they either have a queen, or have uncontrolled laying workers that they treat as queens. If they behave strongly aggressive to the caged queen, I'd look even more carefully, to ensure they are actually queenless. If I were then absolutely certain there were no queen present, I'd add a frame of eggs from a queenright hive, if possible - to hopefully help suppress the laying workers. If not possible, ensure a long, slow, introduction via candy release - it may still fail, but at this point you have little other option, unless you can find another local beekeeper, willing to help, who can provide the comb of eggs.


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## Top Bar

Thanks! I should get the queen today or tomorrow. I'm worried that they will have eaten through most of the candy already. She was shipped 2nd day on the 14th. Due today, but the tracking doesn't show out for delivery. I called my local Post office and they don't show having received it. At this point, if I am lucky it will be tomorrow and that is the 3rd day. 

The hive is from a package introduced on Saturday, but had the flood of syrup which drowned a bunch of bees and at least partially drowned the queen. I did the only thing I could think of. I rinsed her cage lightly with regular water and pulled the cork and put her back in the hive. I assume she is dead, or at least damaged. It has been cold the last 2 days So I haven't wanted to get in there. Today is only supposed to hit 53 degrees by the time I get home. Tomorrow will be 64 which will be better.


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## jwcarlson

My replacement queen arrived alive and well with four attendants. The cage had thr tube extension and candy. I added a bit more candy to the end. We introduced her to the hive. I did not notice anything aggressive like biting and the bees didn't seem hard to move from the cage. I won't say that they were overly excited... but we were also battling 30 mph winds. I noticed some short wing beats, just short thumps. It also looked like some butt shaking. My brother took video I will upload to YouTube when I get home. He thought he noticed them biting but to me it looked like they were exchanging syrup with the attendants or queen. I will post a link when I get it uploaded.

Here is the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-S2ULXRmI8
The video is available in up to full HD so it should be pretty good quality.

I covered the audio because I said the S word twice and there was plenty of wind noise. I made note that they were flipping their wings quite a bit. I did not notice much Nasonov-ing. But, it was about 55 degrees and 25-30 mph wind so bees were reluctant to move it seemed. Plus was getting somewhat dark. We peaked in window about 1.5-2 hours later for about ten seconds. All of the bees that were milling around on the floor had joined the cluster, queen cage completely inside of it, and nice and tight. Hopefully she and the workers can kick it into high gear as this package has been installed for 11 days. It will be a tough row to hoe.

Should we peak in the window on like Friday morning just to see if the cage is empty? We are leaving town this weekend and will check on Sunday afternoon otherwise. Looks like relatively warm days coming and spring is finally taking off a bit after the last few nights in the 20s.


----------



## JClark

Looks to me like it will be a successful intro. If you ever order a package w/out a queen the first thing you will notice is the cluster is less compact than in a package w/ a queen. By the time they get through that candy she will be one of them. I'd check in three or four days and release if needed--they will probably be building comb around the cage so you will have a little mess to deal with. The sooner you deal w/ it the better the rest of the combs will be.


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## Top Bar

Thanks for all the advice so far! 

OK, so the queen will be delivered today. I checked the hive yesterday evening (just through the window). The hive is almost barren, very few bees on the front wall. Think 30 - 40. I think those bees that were left after the drowning must have drifted over to one of the other hives. I would assume the old queen is dead. 

I have noticed when checking the other hives that if I pull a loose bar, there can be a small cluster of bees on the bar without comb yet. Would it work to pull 2 or 3 of those bars from the other hives and put them in the barren hive with the new queen, or will they all just fly back to their original hive? All 4 of my hives were packages introduced on Saturday.

The other 3 hives seem to be doing very well with large clusters near the front. The first hive cluster is probably 50% bigger than the others so I am thinking that this is where the bees from the drowned hive went.


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## shannonswyatt

I wouldn't give the resources from one package to another package. It is hard enough to get a package going, moving some of the bees from one to the other may not help the dwindling hive and could potentially hurt the stronger package. In the end they may bounce back. What I would worry about now is that they end up superseding the new queen. This is not uncommon in packages, and if they do supersede her it will put you back even further. 

If the first hive turns into a rock star you could move some brood in from that one hive, but don't do this until you are sure that they are doing well and have plenty of brood.


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## Top Bar

OK. Thanks! I'll see what happens with the new queen and the few bees that may be left. I was just worried that there weren't enough bees to get the weak hive going and support the new queen that I just purchased. 

I hate throwing good money after bad!


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## shannonswyatt

Very true, but you may have done that. Until you get laying brood it is up in the air.


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## Top Bar

Thanks! I'll just have to chalk this up to the cost of an education. Live and learn I guess. 

Is there anything else I can do with this queen so I don't loose her as well?


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## jwcarlson

Top Bar said:


> Thanks! I'll just have to chalk this up to the cost of an education. Live and learn I guess.
> 
> Is there anything else I can do with this queen so I don't loose her as well?


If you had some open brood to give I wonder if you could make up a nuc for her?


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## Top Bar

That's the problem. I'm new and these are all new hives. 

If I have any open brood, it's in brand new hive. I'll check around and see if I can get any from another local beekeeper, but almost for sure it will have to come from a Langstroth hive. Mine are all Top Bar.


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## jwcarlson

Top Bar said:


> That's the problem. I'm new and these are all new hives.
> 
> If I have any open brood, it's in brand new hive. I'll check around and see if I can get any from another local beekeeper, but almost for sure it will have to come from a Langstroth hive. Mine are all Top Bar.


Ohhh, I misread that before. I see what you're saying. I wonder if there is a way you can bank her and keep her alive in case something happens in one of the other hives. Or maybe bank her until one of the others can spare some resources... which might be a slim chance in the first year. That would be good insurance to have her around.

You could also make up a Langstroth nuc if you are able to get some brood from a local.


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## Top Bar

How would I go about "banking" her? I've not heard that term before.


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## jwcarlson

Top Bar said:


> How would I go about "banking" her? I've not heard that term before.


I'm not the right person to ask, and it maybe isn't a great idea for your situation. You could probably search here.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ueens-in-a-queen-bank&highlight=banking+queen

Worst case, maybe you can find someone nearby that needs a queen and make their day? Maybe "pay it forward" to someone you may need help from later on?


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## T0ADMAN

If you have a local club, it is probably easier to see if anyone needs a queen. In early spring there are usually people looking for queens. You could easily sell it to someone to recoup your money. The hives that got the extra bees will get off to a great start, they may even be strong enough that you could make a split later in the year if ou want to fill the now empty hive. Or just keep it until next year and hope to make some splits then.


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## Top Bar

Sounds good. When I get home, if I don't think the hive can make it with the new queen, I'll see if anyone can use her.


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## jwcarlson

Top Bar said:


> Sounds good. When I get home, if I don't think the hive can make it with the new queen, I'll see if anyone can use her.


If you're correct and there's only 30-40 bees in the hive, that battle has already been decided.


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## Top Bar

Yeah, I think that's the case. It was cold when I looked through the window, and I just want to be sure.


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## jwcarlson

I just got a text message from my brother. I asked him to watch some land and see if they're bringing in pollen. He said "a few with big yellow calves and a couple of them dancing". It's 53 degrees today.

The bees basically haven't been leaving the hive for the past 3-4 days, and they have never brought back any pollen. Hoping against hope that this gal can pull them out!


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## Top Bar

Good Luck JW!


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## shannonswyatt

Pollen is a good sign. Can't make bees without pollen. Did he say which dance? Mambo, Electric Slide, Macarena?


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## jwcarlson

shannonswyatt said:


> Pollen is a good sign. Can't make bees without pollen. Did he say which dance? Mambo, Electric Slide, Macarena?


Chicken dance, this is Iowa afterall, it's going to be something corny.


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## jwcarlson




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## Joseph Clemens

If you had the resources to bank the queen, you'd basically have the resources to restore her colony (the missing package bees - those that dispersed when their queen was missing).


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## Petra

Ditto the General's comment.


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## jwcarlson

Installed caged queen Wednesday. Checked today and found comb and eggs! Also saw the queen purely by chance. Have some nectar or syrup in the combs plus some pollen. Too windy to feel comfortable pulling comb very far out of the hive. I'm lucky I did not break the comb. 

Here's a video my brother took. 





Had the hive open for about a minute is all. Just long enough to confirm they had released her and they were building comb. Took about 24 ounces of syrup since Wednesday evening. Very much relieved. Walked over to the neighbor's pussy willow and weeping willow and watched some honeybees work along with some mason bees. Pretty awesome day.

Want to stress again how incredibly lucky I was that I didn't send the comb with queen into the bottom of the hive.


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## shannonswyatt

Good job! I saw queen there. You can't twist those bars. Folks with langs will turn the frame, what you want to do with a top bar is lift it up to your eye level. If you hold the bars without your thumbs you will have less of a tendency to twist the bar. It is a natural thing to do so don't kick yourself the first time you break off a comb!


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## jwcarlson

shannonswyatt said:


> Good job! I saw queen there. You can't twist those bars. Folks with langs will turn the frame, what you want to do with a top bar is lift it up to your eye level. If you hold the bars without your thumbs you will have less of a tendency to twist the bar. It is a natural thing to do so don't kick yourself the first time you break off a comb!


I know, read it a hundred times... knew not to do it and still did. Part of the problem is that as usual... we can't have a decent day of weather without some aspect being bad. It was 80 degrees today... and 20-25 mile and hour winds blowing right at the hive. I didn't want to lift it out of the hive at all and that lead me to twisting it. It was pretty neat to see the queen, although eggs was enough. I expected comb, but I did not expect eggs. It was a pleasant surprise, as you can tell in the video.  Looked like she had laid in pretty much every available cell on one side of comb, did not really check the side she was on. It's going to be touch and go for the next 20 days... and the rest of the year really.


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## shannonswyatt

The good thing is you have good comb guides and they are drawing right on the guide. You know you have a queen and she is laying. You can leave them alone for a while if you like. Don't go all inspection crazy!


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## jwcarlson

How often should I check for combs going off straight? Les Crowder's book said every couple days during early part of comb building. We are planning on syrup fill and quick peak on Wednesday after work.


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## shannonswyatt

You do need to ensure they are pulling straight comb, but once you have a few straight combs you are on the right path, and they will continue to pull straight comb, unless they get a crazy strong flow and start pulling kooky comb. We don't have those here unfortunately! To keep it straight you can take an empty bar and put it in the middle of the brood nest during times when they are building comb. No reason to do it in October, they are not going to be pulling comb in the fall. If they are pulling good straight comb this week I would probably stay out of it for at least a week. This is a time when having a window is a good thing. You can peak in to check the progress and see if the comb they are pulling is straight without disturbing them. But that doesn't help you now. You probably shouldn't be in their more than once a week. It is hard when it is your first hive though. You want to see what is going on all the time. I think the way to solve that is to get too many hives to inspect!


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## jwcarlson

shannonswyatt said:


> You do need to ensure they are pulling straight comb, but once you have a few straight combs you are on the right path, and they will continue to pull straight comb, unless they get a crazy strong flow and start pulling kooky comb. We don't have those here unfortunately! To keep it straight you can take an empty bar and put it in the middle of the brood nest during times when they are building comb. No reason to do it in October, they are not going to be pulling comb in the fall. If they are pulling good straight comb this week I would probably stay out of it for at least a week. This is a time when having a window is a good thing. You can peak in to check the progress and see if the comb they are pulling is straight without disturbing them. But that doesn't help you now. You probably shouldn't be in their more than once a week. It is hard when it is your first hive though. You want to see what is going on all the time. I think the way to solve that is to get too many hives to inspect!


We do have a window, but I looked at it before we opened it up and couldn't see any comb at all. Too many bees covering it. But they are small enough now that that probably is the issue. Maybe once they are bigger we'll be able to see them from the window better. We'll probably need to refill syrup on Wednesday or there abouts, maybe will just look through the window and make sure they haven't done something goofy with the comb and call it good.

I'm really very grateful to the many people who have contributed to this thread since I started it. I had asked if anyone thought my hive could possibly be queenless on a couple different threads on this forum and was told I just need to be more patient. I'm glad there was some people here to help! Has been a good looking experience so far.


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## shannonswyatt

You will be able to see the comb before too long. the end of the comb will comb to an edge like an ax as they are drawing it out once it gets a bit wider (closer to the window) you will see it. You should be able to see the edge lining up roughly with the bars before too long. If the comb lines up with the bars, you are good. The comb grows in the brood nest, and eventually the comb will be larger than the brood nest since it will be a bit before you have any new bees made. Everyday you lose more bees until you get to hatch out. Then it seems like overnight the hive doubles or triples in size.


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## Tallykat

jwcarlson, thank you for starting the thread. I was reading it because all my bars are the same size—1 3/8. I'll just have to trust the bees to do the right thing. 

I have a very small swarm in my top bar hive. I just passed Day 21. I affirm what Shannon says about seeing the comb through the observation window. For several days it seemed there was just a cluster of bees, then one day, I could see the white of the edges of the comb. That happened around the end of the first week. Now I have five dinner plate-sized comb and a sixth smaller one. I believe I would have more but for a small population of bees. 

Weather has been cold and rainy here so I didn't peek this weekend, but the window really tells me what I need to know about the combs being straight. But last weekend I did open the hive and saw eggs, larvae, and capped brood—as well as the queen, so I share your excitement—as well as your first-hand knowledge of how soft that comb is!









Good luck with the girls!


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## jwcarlson

shannonswyatt said:


> You will be able to see the comb before too long. the end of the comb will comb to an edge like an ax as they are drawing it out once it gets a bit wider (closer to the window) you will see it. You should be able to see the edge lining up roughly with the bars before too long. If the comb lines up with the bars, you are good. The comb grows in the brood nest, and eventually the comb will be larger than the brood nest since it will be a bit before you have any new bees made. Everyday you lose more bees until you get to hatch out. Then it seems like overnight the hive doubles or triples in size.


I'm more worried that there won't be enough bees left to keep the brood warm than anything else. Emergence day will be around May 8-9th... which will be 34-35 days since the package was installed. It's been in for 17 days already.

The bees seemed pretty young for the most part, but even if they were all a week old (which they obviously weren't)... there won't be much left here in a couple weeks.

Unless them basically not flying for about 10 days without a queen will help them live longer.


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## shannonswyatt

They will surprise you at times. Take it easy and enjoy them for now. With a little luck and a good queen they will build up enough to make it through the winter.


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## jwcarlson

shannonswyatt said:


> They will surprise you at times. Take it easy and enjoy them for now. With a little luck and a good queen they will build up enough to make it through the winter.


It is going to rain here the next two days. Bees took about 36 oz of syrup the last 48 hours. I hadn't got a good look at the back comb and was afraid they my attach to the follower. I picked the comb up a couple of inches To confirm it was straight and not attached. I cannot believe the amount of comb they have built since Sunday. I'd say they have tripled if not more. The back two bars are built to full width. Bees were head first in them (feeding larvae I assume as they should have hatched today. Lots of syrup/nectar in the back comb as well as pollen in the couple inches I saw. The comb was heavy. They started building dead center on the comb guides on the third bar from the back. Should I swap that one back in between the first two that are straight? None are full width yet but I think they are full depth or at least close.

We build four 12 bar nucs/swarm traps to hopefully populate our second hive sometime this year. Amazing building capability in these bugs. I'm astonished.


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## shannonswyatt

You should keep two bars of brood together, so when you get 4 bars of brood put a bar in the middle of them. You don't want to spread it too far, particularly since your numbers are still going down everyday.


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## jwcarlson

That's kind of what I thought so I didn't move it. They've still got a lot of bees thankfully. Everytime I look in the hive I'm worried half will have croaked that day.


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## shannonswyatt

Nah, more that 3 percent or so.


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## Michael Bush

> I'll just have to trust the bees to do the right thing. 

They always do the "right thing" from their point of view. It does not always agree with the beekeeper's needs... I would not trust them to do the right thing when it comes to having combs on the bars... I would stack the deck as much as is reasonable and fix it when they get off...


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## jwcarlson

Michael Bush said:


> > I'll just have to trust the bees to do the right thing.
> 
> They always do the "right thing" from their point of view. It does not always agree with the beekeeper's needs... I would not trust them to do the right thing when it comes to having combs on the bars... I would stack the deck as much as is reasonable and fix it when they get off...


Now that I see the rate at which they can draw comb first hand, I can see how it could get out of hand in a very big hurry. We were pretty detailed in leveling the hive, so maybe that helps. They have built combs centered and straight down the guide which I am very much thankful for...


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## Delta Bay

> They have built combs centered and straight down the guide which I am very much thankful for...


Off to a good start but you will need to still keep an eye on curving at the ends of the bars as they build out the combs. The upper outside ends is where they will store nectar and at some point will try to extend the cell walls in that area. Buttering back the cell walls so the next comb can be built fully centered along the bars guide is helpful in maintaining straight and centered combs. Once they have a decent size nest and a growing population. Every new comb that is nearly build across the length of the bar can be shuffle back one between the completed straight centered combs.

It's best not to place empty bars between combs with open nectar cells as they are more inclined to fill that space by lengthening the cell walls of the adjacent combs.


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## jwcarlson

A little update from a post I wrote in another thread. 
---------------------------------------------------------------
I installed a package on April 5th. Through a period of about six days and finally a lengthy thread on here with the help of many... we determined the hive to be queenless. On April 16th we installed the replacement queen in the afternoon. She was hanged from a top bar with a decent amount of candy to be chewed through. The following morning it was sunny and my brother noticed that the bees were bringing in pollen (this is something they did not do at all before hanging the queen). We went back in four days later and the bees had started two combs, they were not visible from the observation window at all. When we pulled one out we saw the queen, some stored pollen, and eggs. The weather has been rough here in eastern Iowa, still dropping down to 35 at night. We had a heating pad on the syrup to keep it in the temperatures at which they can take it. We removed it about a week ago... and put it back on tonight. The lows will be dropping into the 30s the next four nights and highs MAYBE in the mid-50s. 

Our bees are at a crucial time. I sneaked a peak at them today as they should be capping brood. I saw several capped cells. There were several larva very near being ready to be capped. My calculations put emergence day of the first brood to be May 8th or 9th. Possibly as early as May 6th or 7th depending on when the queen was actually released and started laying. That's 34-35 days since the package was installed. The hive still has a good number of bees, but their numbers are noticeably lower at this point. I don't even know if it's possible for them to make it at this point. But my only hope is that it's not uncommon for a new queen to take two weeks to start laying, and theoretically those hives and still survive.
---------------------------------------------

I noticed what looked like a couple of "drone cell" caps. Would a queen lay a few drones in this situation? It seems like a waste of a valuable open cell. Or is this somewhat common for a new queen? The other possibility I thought of was that the comb isn't built to full width and they're putting a bit of a dome on it to account for too shallow of a cell?

There's quite a bit of big larva and a few at various stages.


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## shannonswyatt

I wouldn't worry if it is only a small patch of drones. It sounds like you are back on track. Now you need the weather to cooperate.


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## jwcarlson

shannonswyatt said:


> I wouldn't worry if it is only a small patch of drones. It sounds like you are back on track. Now you need the weather to cooperate.


It was only two cells but were the first ones I saw capped and it got me worried. Saturday is supposed to be sunny with high in the 60s. I'll go in and get a better look at what's going on. May try to straighten curved ends if they're too bad.


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## shannonswyatt

When I got the first big batch of brood in the spring I had two drone cells in there. At the same time I expanded the nest with a new bar. They drew it out as drone comb and filled it up.


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## jwcarlson

shannonswyatt said:


> When I got the first big batch of brood in the spring I had two drone cells in there. At the same time I expanded the nest with a new bar. They drew it out as drone comb and filled it up.


Will bees only draw roughly the amount of comb that they can cover? It seems like comb building as *almost* stopped. Or is this a function of brood requiring the bees attention now vs. there being nothing to do but build comb before? 

They have quite a bit of syrup/nectar stored (didn't notice any capped, but it's hard to tell just peaking at the bars quickly. I think we might have filled the syrup for the last time yesterday afternoon. I'd rather they use the cells for brood instead of putting sugar water in them because "it's there". Plus I don't want them to suddenly feel cramped.


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## shannonswyatt

Young bees are needed to draw comb. Their wax glands only work for so long.


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## jwcarlson

shannonswyatt said:


> Young bees are needed to draw comb. Their wax glands only work for so long.


Thanks for reminding me that my bees are getting old. 



I only require their services for another 10-12 days before some reinforcements arrive.


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## shannonswyatt

That's ok. Having the extra comb doesn't get you anything right now. The can only raise as much brood as they can take care of. Just a little longer and you will have some young bees.


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## Michael Bush

>Will bees only draw roughly the amount of comb that they can cover? It seems like comb building as *almost* stopped. Or is this a function of brood requiring the bees attention now vs. there being nothing to do but build comb before? 

They only build what they need now. Now they are busy rearing brood.

>Young bees are needed to draw comb. Their wax glands only work for so long. 

Old bee can make wax and do when needed. They are not as efficient at it, but they can always do it...


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## jwcarlson

Are these queen cups and should I be worried? 








If it isn't raining this afternoon I might pop this bar out and make sure there isn't larva in it. 
If there is, what do I do? And if it's capped, what do I do?


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## JClark

Looks like they may be. I'd leave them alone if there is anything in them--I wouldn't even bother them to check. If they are cups they are supercedure cups, not swarm cell cups. Packages often supercede their queen and they may be detecting a future problem w/ her that you can't see.


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## Michael Bush

>Are these queen cups and should I be worried? 

They are not oriented correctly for queen cells.


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## JClark

Good point--should be facing down. I have often wondered, if bees were making emergency supercedure cells from cells that already had eggs/young larvae (say the queen was rolled or something), would they re-orient the cell floor downward w/ the chosen egg in it, or would they simply make the cell facing out as in the pic above and then build the remainder downward (leaving the developing queen pupa in an awkward position, I presume)?


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## Michael Bush

In an emergency, they float the larvae out with food and build a cell down from the face of the comb...


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## jwcarlson

I think this hive is toast 










Zero eggs, only saw one larva and it was in the process of being capped. Lots of empty comb. Depressing. 

I have two packages coming Monday. Should I cut out the queen cells and split the comb between them?


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## onesojourner

Sorry man that sucks. You still have a lot of summer left though.


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## jwcarlson

onesojourner said:


> Sorry man that sucks. You still have a lot of summer left though.


She only laid a small bit of worker brood. There is a bunch of drone brood in the hive, though. Outnumbers worker brood 5:1 or more. They have been installed a month this coming Monday.

I'm really hoping these two packages on Monday are good ones. I'm looking for suggestions on what to do with this hive. Wish I had a hive with some brood to donate.


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## JClark

Sounds like a drone laying queen. I hope your other packages are from a different supplier. Seems like strike two for this supplier, to me.

I'd hive the other two packages as you planned and leave this one alone to do it's thing. Worst case is you will end up w/ some extra comb for next year. Sometimes trying to help too much actually hurts. If the other two packages are from the same supplier I'd consider getting queens from elsewhere--and would pay up for good genetics.


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## jwcarlson

JClark said:


> Sounds like a drone laying queen. I hope your other packages are from a different supplier. Seems like strike two for this supplier, to me.
> 
> I'd hive the other two packages as you planned and leave this one alone to do it's thing. Worst case is you will end up w/ some extra comb for next year. Sometimes trying to help too much actually hurts. If the other two packages are from the same supplier I'd consider getting queens from elsewhere--and would pay up for good genetics.


They are from the same supplier. CF Koehnen through a third party here in Iowa. I looked on here and results seemed to be largely positive with their packages. I will say that I ordered a Carni queen and got an Italian. And when I got a replacement... another Italian. I found that strange, but that is more of a middleman issue as I never dealt with Koehnen directly.

These will be coming from a different distributor, however. It's strange because I ordered a package through a friend's dad who was already heading out there. He ordered Carniolan queens as well and he said all of his were black. He had six packages in his car and I happened to pick the one with an Italian queen... AND was shipped an Italian queen as a replacement even after specifying that she should have been a Carniolan. Obviously the queen's race has nothing to do with the issue here, it's just extremely strange to me.


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## Joseph Clemens

Those are capped queen cells. And if they actually contain young queens and not drones, you may soon have a young virgin in that hive.

I would leave these queen cells alone, and see if they can get themselves a viable queen from them.

Don't forget, if you have multiple colonies, and some of them are working out fine. You can always take resources from the healthier colonies to bolster the weaker ones. Sometimes this is a waste of resources, but sometimes it quickly provides you with more stronger colonies. It's good to start practicing this, early, it can be a beekeeper's valuable tool.


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## Tyson Kaiser

jwcarlson said:


> Would you do that even it it meant breaking the cluster/festooning mass and shaking them off to the bottom of the hive? There is such a tight pack of bees it is tough to tell if there is comb underneath all that mass.


If you're having trouble seeing if comb is being built in a festooning cluster a judicious puff of smoke should be enough to clear the bar to make it visible without shaking the bar off.


----------



## jwcarlson

Joseph Clemens said:


> Those are capped queen cells. And if they actually contain young queens and not drones, you may soon have a young virgin in that hive.
> 
> I would leave these queen cells alone, and see if they can get themselves a viable queen from them.
> 
> Don't forget, if you have multiple colonies, and some of them are working out fine. You can always take resources from the healthier colonies to bolster the weaker ones. Sometimes this is a waste of resources, but sometimes it quickly provides you with more stronger colonies. It's good to start practicing this, early, it can be a beekeeper's valuable tool.


What are the chances of having no new brood and them being able to rear a queen and survive until she is laying and surviving a brood cycle? Best case it will be 60 days since install before they would get any new brood right? I do not have any other colonies now, two new packages coming tomorrow. Two three pound packages w/ queen. 

This is probably a silly question to ask but could I "split" some off from the new packages to bolster this one? Feels like that's a horrible idea.


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## JClark

Just set up the two packages and leave alone. I had one hive that went queenless probably in feb timeframe. Interestingly, this was my only carni hive and the queen was from Noble Apiaries--close to where your bees are coming from. Have heard somewhere that some CA queens are having a harder time surviving winters possibly due to potential exposure to almond ag treatments (can't remember where I heard this so take w/ a BIG grain of salt). Anyway, my CA carni was a first year queen that went into winter strong, no mites, and plenty of bees/stores. All my Italians from GA survived their second/third winter just fine (minus one that was "varroa resistant", which succumbed to varroa in Dec--was a first year hive as well).

Anyway, my carni hive went queenless in Feb and, w/ no brood production at the time, eventually became a laying worker hive. Finally got a queen from Ridge Top Apiaries introduced two weeks ago and they are still doing fine. Brood nest is on 2 deep frames and they will start emerging next week-end. I did add two deep frames of brood over two weeks during the first half of Apr to suppress the laying workers.

My point is that bees have a drive to survive so, if they rear a good queen, they will do okay. Just leave them to grow and don't plan to get anything from them and they may surprise you. I would look at re-queening your packages though. Ridge-top's queens are from Glenn Apiaries and VP queen stock (VP queens are bred just up the road from me but a breeder queen is $200).

Chances are, though, the bees may re-queen anyway. If not, I'd re-queen at least one in a few months when they are established for insurance. Plus CA bred bees may struggle a little more in the IA winters. My CA carni sure couldn't take it here (and it's a tad warmer here).


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## jwcarlson

JClark said:


> Just set up the two packages and leave alone. I had one hive that went queenless probably in feb timeframe. Interestingly, this was my only carni hive and the queen was from Noble Apiaries--close to where your bees are coming from. Have heard somewhere that some CA queens are having a harder time surviving winters possibly due to potential exposure to almond ag treatments (can't remember where I heard this so take w/ a BIG grain of salt). Anyway, my CA carni was a first year queen that went into winter strong, no mites, and plenty of bees/stores. All my Italians from GA survived their second/third winter just fine (minus one that was "varroa resistant", which succumbed to varroa in Dec--was a first year hive as well).
> 
> Anyway, my carni hive went queenless in Feb and, w/ no brood production at the time, eventually became a laying worker hive. Finally got a queen from Ridge Top Apiaries introduced two weeks ago and they are still doing fine. Brood nest is on 2 deep frames and they will start emerging next week-end. I did add two deep frames of brood over two weeks during the first half of Apr to suppress the laying workers.
> 
> My point is that bees have a drive to survive so, if they rear a good queen, they will do okay. Just leave them to grow and don't plan to get anything from them and they may surprise you. I would look at re-queening your packages though. Ridge-top's queens are from Glenn Apiaries and VP queen stock (VP queens are bred just up the road from me but a breeder queen is $200).
> 
> Chances are, though, the bees may re-queen anyway. If not, I'd re-queen at least one in a few months when they are established for insurance. Plus CA bred bees may struggle a little more in the IA winters. My CA carni sure couldn't take it here (and it's a tad warmer here).


I'm praying we catch a swarm or two this year. 

That's good news on your hive surviving that long, and pretty amazing. I just hope that these packages do somewhat better than this one did. I'm certainly not expecting them to even survive at this point, so if they did that would be cool.


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