# New Beekeeper Looking for Information on TBH's in Central Illinois



## WD9N (Dec 28, 2014)

OK, so I am a total newbie. I have been reading, watching video, and learning for some time and have long had an interest in bees. I have some questions as I am now preparing to take the plunge this spring.

I am looking build top bar hives and would like some input more specific to my region, Fayette County, Illinois.

Pros and cons of 2x or 1x material?
Screen bottom or solid?

Other input that would be region specific would be greatly appreciated, I am looking to start building soon.


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## threepingsthree (Mar 3, 2014)

I followed plans for a "universal top bar hive" that was listed here on Beesource. It had what i thought was a lot of good features like langstroth interchangeability, and slot for boardman feeders. None of these things worked out. So my recommendation is to look at your plan options and actually compare them with dimensions that are listed. I was able to make my hives work but one feature (langstroth interchangeability) will never happen in my case, and I don't mind it a bit. There are several schools of thought for top bar hive construction, as you do more research you will notice some similarities. Try not to deviate too far from those similarities.

two good sources of information that I have found helpful are http://bushfarms.com/bees.htm and Wyatt Mangum's Book _Top Bar hive Beekeeping: Wisdom & Pleasure combined_ Mangum does a great job of talking many finer points of top bar beekeeping but leaves the elementary information out.


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## Broglea (Jul 2, 2013)

Regardless of what you choose for material or design, after your first year you will most likely modify your equipment/methods as you gain more experience. I started with a TBH using 1X material and a screened bottom board. Now I have some hives without the screen and some hives with. Currently, I'm moving towards all long langs. I guess my advice to you is go in whatever direction you feel suits your needs. Don't spend a lot of money on equipment the first year as you will modify as you go.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Look at a million pics and plans and decide what you like and what you have to work with.

Here's mine:

http://topbarhives.info/

I tried to streamline appearance and construction, these hives with all the funky wooden catches were annoying. ;-)

I don't at all regret the solid bottom, tray and screen tho' the next one will be a bit different with probably a little door on both bottom ends. The tray made out of frp is just the ticket to make detritus uber visible, easily cleaned. If I were in a tropical environment i'd go with an open screened bottom and I saw at least one poster from sweden or somewhere who had an open bottom on her snowcovered wrapped hives that worked for her... Seems awfully frigid to me. In all but the warmest temps, having some gap around the door from the back bottom of the hive so air can be drawn thru the whole hive and out the top entrance seems a decent plan. In my design, there's a good inch of clear air under the screen that helps airflow, I think. When it's really warm, rare here, I can pull out the tray and allow more air through and widen the entrance a bit if more was desirable. 

The next one will also have a hinged roof with a 1x2 box frame under it, probably with the gables set back a few inches on each side OR entrance holes (maybe a sliding panel?) in the gables and the topbar gap, might be an interesting place to install a rube goldberg pollen trap that's easily managed. I'll also insulate the new roof with some of that foam board stuff and I'm trying to figure out how to make a nice little compartment to keep hive tools in there that's not more of a pain the butt than it's worth.

You get some winter where you are, if I were there I'd prefer thicker wood - a true 1 - 1.5".

Have fun! I love my bees and can't wait to increase my hives. Gonna build a new 4' hive and two half size for nuc/swarms and probably do a bit of a retrofit on the original, hinge that lid...


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## WD9N (Dec 28, 2014)

Great information! Thanks.

At the moment, I am looking at building what I guess is called a "long lang" that will use deep frames. How many frames does such a hive need to be able to hold, 30 or so?


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Your call - depending on how long you make it. If you're using lang frames with spaces in between, multiply that width by x amount of frames to get the length, or divide a length you think you want to get the # of bars. Seems like most folk go with about 4'. Much less and you don't have enough hive volume, much more and it's a beast to handle. 20" or so wide is pretty hefty.

And your frames will sit on a rabbit cut inside the sides? More difficult to pry out than top bars that ride on and protrude above the hive sides. The best of both worlds might be to rip .5" thick lumber to 1.25 wide (and use .25 spacers in stores) and screw these to the top of std frames. Now you have a solid top like a standard top bar, easy to get out because they ride on top, easy to extract and reuse because they're in a full frame, and you can still go foundationless, I've seen frames with comb guides in them. I like foundationless, no plastic and no contaminated wax in your new pristine environment.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am looking build top bar hives and would like some input more specific to my region, Fayette County, Illinois.

Well, I'm not there, but it's pretty cold where I am...
http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm

>Pros and cons of 2x or 1x material?

2 bys are heavier and sooner or later you'll have to move it, or pick it up. But the 2 bys are also more insulation. All of mine are 1 bys.

>Screen bottom or solid?

Solid. Screened with a tray is too much work. Screened without a tray is too much ventilation.


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## WD9N (Dec 28, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >Screen bottom or solid?
> 
> Solid. Screened with a tray is too much work. Screened without a tray is too much ventilation.


Just wanting to clarify, do you mean too much trouble to construct or just a pain dealing with taking out in the summer and putting back in the fall?

I was thinking for mites and ventilation in summer the screened bottom would be good and then slide the solid board in for the winter. You recommend just using a solid bottom like a lang and be done with it?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Just wanting to clarify, do you mean too much trouble to construct or just a pain dealing with taking out in the summer and putting back in the fall?

Yes.

>I was thinking for mites and ventilation in summer

It will be way too much ventilation in the summer. It will do nothing for the mites in my experience.

> the screened bottom would be good and then slide the solid board in for the winter. 

Bees have to cool the hive in the summer. Leaving the bottom open on a long hive makes this impossible.

>You recommend just using a solid bottom like a lang and be done with it?

Sort of. It can be simpler than that as a Langstroth needs a rail to raise the hive to make a beespace on the bottom. You can just make the sides tall enough to start with and nail a piece of 1/4" luan plywood on the bottom... or some scrape 1/2" or whatever is cheap and handy...


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## WD9N (Dec 28, 2014)

Thank you, I had not considered that in allowing too much ventilation that I would actually diminish the ability to cool the hive. That makes since, I suspect the evaporation action for honey production actually cools the comb below ambient air temps, allowing too much air inside would overcome the evaporative cooling effect.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Make em to the dimensions on Michael Bushes website and I'll give ya a couple of bars with starter combs drawn straight to get you on the right track with a package I'm over in Clark co just on the other side off Effingham about 10 min s of the interstate


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>That makes since, I suspect the evaporation action for honey production actually cools the comb below ambient air temps, allowing too much air inside would overcome the evaporative cooling effect.

Exactly. If it's 100 F outside and the brood nest has to be 93 F and there is too much ventilation, they can't deal with it.


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## AdamBeal (Aug 28, 2013)

I built the one pictured in Michael's link at the top this time last year and it served me well. I did add a window and so glad I did I would highly recommend it as I have learned so much. With the window I can go out anytime even now in the winter and see the bees are still alive and clustered in between the combs. Without the window I could only wonder or wait for a warm day to see if there is activity or try and listen at the side. I can see how much of the sugar blocks I put in hardware cloth frames they are eating and kind of tell how they are doing as far as stores. I have learned a lot about bees over this year just by watching through that window it has been an amazing educational experience. I am adding Lang hives this spring but I think starting out with the TBH was worth it if nothing else for having that window. After I added the bees from the package in the spring I watched their progress building up comb, I could see if the syrup feeder I had behind the divider was low, I saw bees fighting and taking care of pests, removing dead, saw drones, hive cleanup, in the summer I saw when the brood hatched the hive got very populated. I saw all this with only having to open the hive area 4 or 5 times to do some manipulations like adding empty bars in the brood nest late last spring. I think one of the challenges of dealing with Langs is going to be that I am so used to being able to know pretty much what is going on before I open the hive that I am a bit spoiled now.


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## reminniear (Apr 7, 2014)

Hi WD9N,

I am in Miami County, KS which is in the same USDA Zone as Fayette County, Illinois.

Like threepingsthree, I would highly recommend reading Wyatt Mangum's book "Top Bar hive Beekeeping: Wisdom & Pleasure combined" and also reading Michael Bush's website.

My hives are built to the specifications contained in Wyatt Mangum's book. I also follow the management as outlined in his book. So far it has worked out well in Zone 6a. The hives are made of 1x lumber with a solid bottom.

Last winter was a tough cold winter for bees in this area. My hives came through alright.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >Screened with a tray is too much work.


Not to rumble with the venerable Mr. Bush, but I do think it has much to do with how you're doin' it.

If you're a hobby beek and you like to diddle anyway...

I put solid bottoms on mine (with the sides and ends resting on top of the bottom piece), but before I predrill and screw it all together I drill and install a few shelf pins along the bottom of each side a bit from the bottom. I get an old window screen at least as long as the interior of the hive from the restore or wherever, disassemble the frame and recut it to fit snugly inside the hive resting on the pins I've installed. Most of the original window screen is soft stuff, so I rescreen with new aluminum screen 'cuz I scored a huge roll for about two bucks a few years back, but you can reuse the bead. The only remotely tricky thing is cutting a clean 45 to resize the frame pieces. A miter works good with a finer blade, not a job for the jig or circular saw. I thought perhaps regular window screen was too fine, but the mites fall thru real good! This is a bit of fiddly work but the end product is very clean and functional.

Then a removable tray that slides along the bottom for easy inspection and removal of detritus. Mine are from some scrap white frp (fiberglas reinforced panel) I have left from a shower enclosure install... The pebbly texture and bright white color and imperviousness of this material make it perfect for this application, junk really stands out. It comes in 4' x 8' sheets, but no one's shower is built that wide so scrap should be readily available, if you're building a bunch of hives it's not that expensive and you get a bunch of trays out of a sheet.

Yes, this means you must cut your follower board a bit short since you're taking up a bit of the bottom of the hive. Slide open the tray for more ventilation. With vents, I always try to go low on the intake and high on the exhaust to move moisture out, per Michael's excellent argument for a simple top bar gap entrance.

And doesn't require diddling with the bottom of the hive so you've got more choices on how to place 'em.









More pics of that hive:

http://topbarhives.info/get-a-swarm/installed-the-swarm/


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

Hey Apis nice pics of your bees. Did they pull straight comb off of your wedges? Did you use a follower board right up close to the cluster (can't see it in the pic). Do you ever find live mites below the screen? I dont have screens on any of my TBHs, but I do have them on a few langs, and they havent helped with the mites in my case. TBHs and natural comb sure have helped.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

I think the deep bevel on the bars makes it almost impossible for them to mess up the comb. Mine were all perfect until I diddled around with the spacing and introduced anomalies. ;-) When they started taking syrup late fall, with a vengeance, they were building out comb like mad. I was alarmed that it appeared they'd filled up what had been brood with syrup, and there seemed to be too much condensed moisture so I put 3-4 empty bars in the front and back, spaced everything out way too much, then soon realized that the spacing was probably too wide in what should be brood with cold coming on so attempted to squish everything back together which resulted in a bit of a mess because they'd built out the nectar cells much deeper on the top of the bars. I also swapped around some bars in the process and think I got a few turned around (so as someone else noted elsewhere on the board - mark one side of your bars!). So some of the construction went a tad wavy, nothing that's a real problem. Now I have too much empty space on both ends and they built a teensy bit of bridge comb top center on a few new combs in the back, but better just to leave it for now and see what they do in the spring. A classic case of stoopid meddling. I went back and cleaned that up a bit, but it was gettin' a bit chilly to be messing around so I tried not to be more stupid. The lessons learned there:

1) Stick to the spacing plan, don't be changin' it midstream.
2) Don't get fancy with moving bars around. Only add a bar at a time in the front, and fer gawd's sake don't be changing the order the combs are in or flipping them around.
3) Don't overreact to condensation, a certain amount seems to be normal (it's wet here in the pnw and they know how to deal with it).
4) The bees know what they are doing but my judgement is horribly flawed. Try to stay out of their way.

When I first hived the swarm, I gave them about 6 bars forward of the follower. In retrospect I should probably have fed them immediately to help 'em get going. Perhaps the swarm was a bit small or whatever, they weren't building as quickly as I thought they might so the rapidity of comb addition when fed threw me off. Pretty much tho' it was textbook and dead simple, I put them in the nice box, they go to work.

Mites! Have NOT seen a live one anywhere ever, despite exam of the bottom board with a 20x loupe and sitting in front of the window with a flashlight peeping individual bees for 15 min or so at a time. 

From my study, the conseusus seemed to be that mites in a first year hived swarm shouldn't be a problem. Ahem. I was checking the bottom board almost every day and it was going swimmingly until all of a sudden there were scads of dead mites on the bottom board just as the cold weather was coming on! I ended up doing an oa dribble and had a gratifying huge mite drop in the first couple days. But I have to say that the mites on the board (cumulatively) from the time I first saw them until I could treat was about equal to what dropped after the oa, so continue to wonder just what happened there. Did my bees just suddenly wake up one day and decide to engage in hygenic behavior after they each had 100 mites? Where did the mites come from? Were we invaded by an infested fleeing colony? I continue to get mite drops but nowhere near the horde. I'll be doing regular powdered sugar dusts soon, figure I'll remove the spacer bars one at a time and sift in a fair amount using a wedge funnel type of affair (yet to be built but I'm seeing something like 2 of those plastic wall pocket things joined to make a nice wide opening at the top, narrow at the bottom, so you can use a small sifter and just chunkachunkachunka along the length and done!) to make sure that it is channeled down cleanly and no mess on the top. Here's my varroa alarm thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?305451-Varroa-Explosion

My apologies to all more experienced beeks who might be thinking I run my mouth a bit much for a rookie. ;-) I try to learn from the experiences of others and feel it's a duty to try to pass it on... I've studied muchly for 3+ years and tried to take the best features of what I've seen and refine them for overall simplicity and functionality. I wish I'd read about somebody else who made these mistakes so I could avoid them, maybe it'll help someone else. And some of us are just detail hounds, skip it if you're annoyed by such trivia. LOL


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## Lostfrog (Jun 21, 2014)

If you're still considering a long lang, I just made one using these plans this winter. http://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/long-langstroth-plans.shtml 
I added a hinged roof and put the entrances on the end instead of the side, also added a bottom screen for cleaning and mite check purposes but I have a hinged bottom board under it that remains closed all year.


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