# How many boxes do you winter your bees in ?



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I run all mediums. Strong hives get four (3 brood, 1 honey). I try to let each hive have one medium full of honey. Weaker hives get combined of course. 1" foam board under the tele cover, 1/2" screen over the larger opening on the reducer. Wind break..... important either natural or manmade. 
Pretty much it.


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## bbruff22 (Dec 24, 2013)

I think the most popular configuration in my area is the double deep set up. We have winter, but nothing like the northern beeks have. I know folks are going to mediums some too though. I've just been through one winter, so we'll see how it goes this year.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

"The older I get the more the heat of the summer starts to wear on me with all my out of door chores which last several hours every day."

Tell me about it. Come on third week in September when Summer ends and the highs get back into the 80's. It took me the whole day yesterday to clean up the back yard.


"I know this is probably dependent to a great extent on your geographic area, but I am interested in how the rest of you prepare your hives for winter ?"

I'm zone 7. That is probably the same as you. I run double deeps and do not feed. My second deep is already full. They have some frames in the first super to survive summer on. We do not have a fall flow.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

There are many things that contribute to good wintering and some of them have already been mentioned above and it all boils down to good hive management throughout the year. 

To answer the original question from the OP I have been testing the three deep hive to see if they respond better to my winters than do the two deep hives and I did come through last winter with all 10 hives surviving and in good condition, these hives will be wintering again in three deeps so we will see how it goes. I have started using a winter wrap this past winter that was suggested to me by "Vance G" and I feel it has been performing better than the tar paper wrap that I have used in the past contributing to better winter survival, I use the three deep model.
http://www.bbhoneyfarms.com/store/c-58-beehive-winter-packing 

The three deep hives have out performed the two deeps during late winter into early spring where I seen better and faster build up and I was able to capture the early Black Locust flow in April with each hive filling and capping a deep, I have never been able to capture this flow in the past with the two deep hive configuration. The three deep brood nest gives the bees all the room they need to raise brood and capture this early Locust flow with little interference from me, and during the May Wildflower flow these hives have a plethora of workers to bring in the nectar, all I need do is keep adding supers, I have never before seen such numbers of workers coming and going from these hives and I reaped the benefit of having the best spring harvest I have ever had and I am looking forward to a great fall harvest of Goldenrod come September. 

To be fair toward the two deep setup I need to add that I work 10 hours a day and I am not able to be here to micromanage my hives and help them avoid brood box congestion thus resulting in swarming which has always been a real headache for me over the years, I do feel that if one manages a two deep correctly then that person won't be disappointed with the results, however the two deep hive does require closer management .


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## Orion7 (Jun 3, 2015)

Also SE Ohio. I do 2 deeps and 2 mediums in the winter. But, I don't feed and I harvest honey in the spring. I let them have everything they store all year and then I take some of what's left in the spring, and there always seems to be plenty. I don't have to feed and I don't worry whether they will starve. Bees have plenty of other things to worry about.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Deep South--7B Alabama--here. I winter in double deeps with a sugar block on top. I do not wrap. I do try to remember to put mouse guards on and take the oil out of the pans, but otherwise, I don't do anything special. I use screened inner covers year-round and do not have any moisture problems as a result. Last year I did OAD on Thanksgiving. Haven't lost a hive the last 2 years. Lost one the year before that, but that was my own fault--I forgot this isn't Florida and started a nuc WAY too late to establish itself for winter.

HTH

Rusty


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I do all 8 frame mediums, and winter successfully in any number of boxes from 1 on up. I put sugar on all hives in Dec before winter really gets rolling.


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

Single deep and medium . In my area going into winter hives need top medium full of capped reserves. Makes hive management simple. We are blessed with mild winters and plenty of pollen almost year round.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

3 medium 10 frames (= 2 deeps). ~ 1-1/2 brood, 1-1/2 honey, going into winter. No supplemental feed. Buckfast (Bee type is also a critical consideration for how much winter stores they should have). South of Denver - USDA zone 4b, -20*F to -25*F. 

2 mediums, without supplemental feeding, is generally a death sentence around here.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

If they have enough feed does the number of boxes really matter? Does the number of boxes influence the number of bees one has in the winter? Does one need a lot of bees in winter as long as there is a healthy Queen, bees to keep her warm and feed her and enough bees to cover early brood?

From reading, not experience, it seems if bees are protected from wet, parasites and predators, have adequate appropriate feed and a queen and enough bees to start up again after winter they should be OK.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Very good - YOU have been paying attention. You know the formula, and that there are multiple ways to do it. Very good.

And that IS the formula.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

You probably could get a very small cluster of Carniolan bees to survive till spring but if you are in a cool climate they will not get their numbers up to field many foragers for the early flows. This does not apply to most peoples climate but up around the Border states and Canada I think it pays to put them away heavy or do stimulating feeding to get them going early if your bucks are in honey. 

I have had ridiculously good luck at getting bees through the winter in two deeps, but I am sure I am leaving money on the table when it comes to early honey production. I am going to put one or two colonies into winter as three deeps to see how it works for me in the spring. Three deeps also should cut down on need for as much fall feeding.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I am also in NC, but I know that Brunswick county has a much milder climate than Mecklenburg. I overwinter in double-deeps. Nucs will be in double deep nucs. I use a frame feeder once the supers come off. When the ambient temperature drops below 50, a sugar brick goes on the frames over the brood nest.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

This is a subject dear to my heart. I think we too often neglect the the effects of of the bees natural instincts in our management of colonies in the fall. Some observations are presented here for review by the skeptical.

First: the colony is quite skilled in adjusting the population to be proportional to cavity stores/ volume for the winter.
To do otherwise, would be asking for trouble. 

Increasing brood volume to rear wintering bees starts in August, and proceeds through two 2 brood cycles into mid Oct. When that brood emerges in Oct. it's important that the broodnest be backfilled with nectar prior to hard winter setting in. If the broodnest is not backfilled, some colonies will move up (relocate) onto solid capped honey overhead and be eating their wintering honey early. A handicap in late winter.

If you help them get it done their way, you will be rewarded by much better wintering.

Walt


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Hello Mike, I'll put it this way - Wintering starts now, in mid-July. As the nectar and pollen flows dwindle, the robbing screens go on ahead of time, and we begin feeding pollen substitute patties and Pro-Sweet. Robbing bad, Feeding good.

Figure on 15 lbs of premium patties over 6 months preparing for Winter for a 5-frame nuc to build up for pollination season. In 2-box colonies, patties go in between boxes in the brood nest during the winter, if not all year long.

August 15th is the critical date to bomb the varroa mites. If you are using an IPM program, that is the date to whack the mites with your strongest treatment of the year, barring a sudden explosion due to a usurping colony with mites taking over a hive. I also remove drone brood at this time, and treat for nosema.

Before Halloween, weigh the hives on a scale. A 2-deep colony should weigh 130 lbs going into Winter, or it must be fed.

The size of the hive should not be much larger than the colony - this is where the real art of beekeeping comes in. Dr. Charles C. Miller used to make "hive dummies" - wooden boxes the size and shape of a normal comb frame to take up dead space in a box, thus making it easier for the bees to keep it warm inside on less stored honey. This could prove critical if an abnormally cold winter happens and there is a late thaw. There must be honey within reach for making heat, and there must be pollen for brood build-up in the early spring. Extra boxes come off. Mothball the frames and seal them up. Air them out for 3 weeks in the Spring and they'll be good to go for Spring time.

Screened bottom boards are replaced with solid bottom boards for winter, and metal queen excluders come off.

Winter feeders are largely a matter of whether or not you anticipate a freeze. *If it freezes in your area, do not feed liquid syrup.* Fondant boards, sugar blocks, powdered Dri-vert, and patties are the usual diet during freezes. Hive-top feeders are used if you are not near freezing temperatures. Check out Don the Fat Bee Man's no drowning hive top feeder. It's a great modification of a Miller feeder.

Read Randy Oliver's website, www.scientificbeekeeping.com - the article under Bee Nutrition about a comparison test of the various pollen substitute patties.

Finally, if you get extended freezes - this likely does not apply to you in southern, coastal NC, but if you do - insulate the hives with foam blocks and wrap them, or build a straw bale shelter for them for the coldest part of the year. Resist the temptation to check on them when it could still get a sudden cold snap. Instead, go build hives, frames, queen cages, a queen bank frame, a Cloake Board, pollen traps, hive dummies, hive top feeders, nuc boxes, etc., in the barn. 

These are only general guidelines - you'll eventually select from and customize the total of advice to your area. Good luck!


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## Montyb (May 27, 2013)

Upper Michigan zone 5. 2 deeps and 1 medium with upper deep back filled with honey. Trying 3 deep on one hive this winter.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We winter with the bees in one deep, with an empty deep below, unoccupied, for dead air space. We have been wintering in one deep since at least WWII.

Crazy Roland


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

I think by now you've seen the answer to how many boxes to winter in is "it depends."

Most focus on the geographical area but I would add that the sub-species of the bee may a factor. When keeping in bees in the chilly hills of Western Maine, I kept Italians in three or four mediums (or a deep and two meds.) I usually gave my Carniolans the same if I could but some Carni hives managed to survive through the winter in two mediums and boom in the spring.

(And yes. I know Andrew, I keep referring back to my time in Maine but I do miss it and most of my recent beekeeping experience has been there.)

Wayne


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## beejeezers (Oct 17, 2013)

We keep our bees in British Nationals in the UK midlands. We use 2 deeps but with wide dummy boards to reduce the space to give 9 frames in each. This is not just for the winter , we have this configuration as standard throughout the year . We put a full super underneath and try to get 2 full frames of stores in each brood box. We use open mesh floors and provide a windbreak of horticultural netting. So far we have not had any losses but hen our winters may not be as harsh as yours?.


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## pcrawfo1 (Jul 23, 2015)

Triple deeps for the last two winters and the hive has done well. The last two years on a mild day in February I have also have mixed patties of sugar and honey that is starting to crystalize and put it between parchment and fed it to them. This is by far the best hive I have ever had, incredibly passive and great producers. I've never had to treat for mites or beetles. I also don't wrap the hive for winter.....they make a crazy amount of propolis on all the seams. Not bad for a swarm caught in a Kmart parking lot.


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## Tommy Hodge (Jun 4, 2013)

I overwinter in 10 frame double deeps on production hives and 5 frame double deeps with nucs. The last 2 seasons the fall flow has been good and top boxes have had 70 to 80 lbs of honey going into winter on production hives and nucs have had approximately 30 to 35 pounds of honey going in to winter.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Got back to this thread before it died.
My wintering config supports both checkerboarding (CB) in the spring and better wintering. 
I go into the winter with a shallow of empty comb at the bottom. It was last season's pollen box and was consumed in early fall (Aug) to start buildup to rear young bees for wintering. During the winter, it acts as a slatted rack to separate the brood in the broodnest from the drafty entry. Come spring, it is available to CB at the top and has been protected by the bees over winter. It is brood comb - had brood in it when it was placed there. Backfilled with bee bread in the spring when pollen was plentiful.

The second box, coming out of winter, is the deep basic brood box. The bees prefer a deep for brood - Has something to do with cluster shape and size. By using a deep and the rest shallows, the basic broodnest stays in the deep, year round. While expanding the broodnest upward, or contracting it downward, brood is maintained in the deep. ( A management advantage) 

Above the basic deep, 2 shallows of capped honey - Almost exactly equivalent to a second deep. The advantage is the flexibility to CB early or late in late winter. Sometimes the week-ender is weathered out during that period. CB works best if it is done before the colony reaches max expansion. Short of the top shallow.

Will not go into all the reasons I don't use mediums in the potential brood volume of the first 4 feet from the bottom. Will say this much: Some colonies see the medium as equivalent to a deep for brood, and some don't. I prefer the more marked preference for a deep vs shallow for the consistency.

Walt


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Roland said:


> We winter with the bees in one deep, with an empty deep below, unoccupied, for dead air space. We have been wintering in one deep since at least WWII.
> 
> Crazy Roland


the empty deep below is unoccupied? meaning no comb or frames empty?
what do you do in the spring with the bottom empty deep?


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

My 1st hive (free bees) almost made it last year in a partially drawn medium. They would have made it if they had 3 more weeks of stores. I think I could get colonies with 1 fully drawn medium through by stacking, insulating, and accurately controlling ventilation. 

If this is done:
stacking as 1 rectangle prism 2 colonies high, 2 wide, and 2 long (8 colonies in 1 bundle)
a little insulating (some on top, and preferably something a little better than coroplast on the bottom)

then, I could get them through with 2 mediums and little effort. I'd probably make a wind break because its easy, although I would prefer to grow one.


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

Roland said:


> We winter with the bees in one deep, with an empty deep below, unoccupied, for dead air space. We have been wintering in one deep since at least WWII.
> 
> Crazy Roland


That is genius. That might even accomplish the same thing as a wind break with less effort.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As many as they need. That might be anywhere from 1 to 6 eight frame medium boxes...


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

SeaCucumber said:


> ....I think I could get colonies with 1 fully drawn medium through ....then, I could get them through with 2 mediums and little effort.


Let us know how that works for you. I kept bees over 8 New England winters and it required more than a "little effort."

Wayne


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Two deeps or equivalent is all that is required for hives in our area.

Need to make sure they are mostly full(brood area should be open for the cluster) of honey and syrup going into winter.

Some supplemental sugar in the form of blocks or mountain camp or candy boards will help survival.

I also suggest insulation of the hive and minimal yet adequate ventilation to remove moisture is also very important. This keeps the interior of the hive warmer which reduces the usage of carbohydrates to keep warm. It also allows the bees to move about and bring stores to the cluster. There is an inverse to this as in a warmer climate, the warm interior causes bee activity and brood that also increases carbohydrate consumption.

Ensure windbreaks to reduce heat loss. Group hives in twos or fours and then insulate so sharing of heat and reduced heat loss.

Need to monitor honey/syrup supply in early spring and supplement as required, so colony doesn't starve in the last month.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

In this area we really don't have to worry about the cold but the unending winter rains cause all kinds of moisture problems. Two deeps or three mediums are plenty of stores but I add a sugar block on top just in case. My hives are Carniolans (in top bar hives) and Russian hybrids (all in Langs) and both are pretty frugal with the stores in winter. I have had no Italians until this year and am very curious to see how they are with the stores in winter. The Russians ate almost nothing last winter and I have joked that they could have overwintered on only one medium frame of stores. When spring came, I had to remove frames of honey so the queen would have room to lay. I do no wrapping but do use top entrances on all of the hives for ventilation.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Clyder..... Either way works. Empty frames or empty of frames. There are advantages to either way.

Crazy Roland

P.S. Insanity and Genius are often close neighbors.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

What is the reasoning for the empty box on bottom?


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

cheryl1 said:


> What is the reasoning for the empty box on bottom?


Insulation, but... it may be a better idea to winter in one deep close to the ground: in my area at the beginning of January we get about 30-40 cm of snow and after that very low temperatures(this is the happy case). The hive will be enclosed in the fresh snow and perfectly insulated against the cold outside.


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## WRLCPA (May 12, 2014)

Tommy Hodge said:


> I overwinter in 10 frame double deeps on production hives and 5 frame double deeps with nucs. The last 2 seasons the fall flow has been good and top boxes have had 70 to 80 lbs of honey going into winter on production hives and nucs have had approximately 30 to 35 pounds of honey going in to winter.


Now see, this illustrates why it doesn't matter how many boxes or frames. What does matter, as other have said, is whats in the boxes.

Keep the inside dry and ventilated, have a healthy queen and enough bee's, it doesn't matter how many boxes


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

I used to go 2 deeps with a super on there. Last year I went with double deeps. I fed heavily to ensure they had enough supplies and ironically didn't loose one of my 25 hives. Not saying it was due to the double deep (I used Apivar on all hives after having great results in test the year before) but it definitely gave them less space to defend.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> As many as they need. That might be anywhere from 1 to 6 eight frame medium boxes...


I have never tried one medium but I have had success with 2 through 5 nearly effortlessly.

I harvest in the fall so the effort required is harvesting the honey. As a result it down sizes the hive.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

It is detrimental to winter survival if you have supers on that are not required to provide adequate food supply. It is just extra space that results in a colder internal hive temp.

The interior of the hive will be warmer, resulting less food consumption in cold climates. The warmer internal hive temp also allows the cluster to move about more freely and allows bees get honey and bring it back to the cluster.


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## my2cents (Jul 9, 2015)

I am moving all my boxes, at tleast the newer colonies, to 2 deep 8 frames. I had been using 2 mediums, now I am using deeps on the bottoms and mediums on top. This year, I am wintering over with 1 deep and 2 mediums. I intend to split early spring, or maybe early fall. From what I saw today, I may make the early fall splits. If so, I will winter them all in either 2 mediums or one deep and feed.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Roland said:


> Clyder..... Either way works. Empty frames or empty of frames. There are advantages to either way.
> 
> Crazy Roland
> 
> P.S. Insanity and Genius are often close neighbors.


Re PS>> you ain't kiddin.

Your bees are wintered outside in a single deep w/ empty bottom deep?


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## TroyDM (Jul 15, 2014)

Lake Placid, NY. Last year we had many nights with –28 degree temps. I had 2 hives. 2 brood boxes, 2 mediums. Both were really strong and had lots of honey. I made quilt boxes for both to keep the moisture down inside. Quilt boxes had a fair bit of shavings in them to wick moisture. Wrapped them with 1” radiant barrier foam boards. 1 hive absolutely thrived and the other died. I think they got a little damp inside and froze. The shavings in the quilt box were pretty damp when I discovered them dead. (I should have changed them out more often)


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

Single deeps and the occasional additional medium or shallow. But mostly single deeps. Have done this in the foothills of SC, mid Ga and now north Alabama. Never had any troubles.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Clyder, - Yes, outside, single deep. From late '30s to the 80's, just a single deep, paired hives, 4" of straw on sides and tops inside a plaster lathe and tar paper "wintercave". We then purchased Coroplast double deep wraps, and used with an empty deep(with or without frames) on the bottom.

You can collect more honey using a single deep, and get less adulteration from excess feed being moved up in a double or triple deep. When you fill up that double deep with syrup, and they only use half, where do you think it ends up in the spring?

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> When you fill up that double deep with syrup, and they only use half, where do you think it ends up in the spring?
> 
> Crazy Roland


I am glad you said that.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Roland>> thank you.

No double or triple deeps for me. Winter in 2 mediums, some 3 mediums and some deep + medium. Our Springs are odd with some acting like northern spring weather and some years more like southern early spring weather. You probably would not like how close I cut it in Spring regarding amount of winter stores left over. Heck, I get myself in a twist if the season is late (last couple of years) or the maples get washed out and that's why some are in deep + medium. 
Giving serious thought if the method you use could work for me here. thanks again.

Are you related to Doolittle?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

No. 

C.F.Diehnelt came to Wisconsin as a beekeeper in 1852 from Pappendorf Saxony.

We believe that the bees respond to feed in the spring differently than stored feed in the spring. The closer you can get that brood box to empty by NOT filling that second deep, the faster they will expand. The key is to only give them what their short term needs are, so that nothing is stored and all is turned into bees.

Crazy Roland


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Every year I try to overwinter as many single story, 5 frame nucs as possible.
By the time the honey flow begins, you CANNOT tell the difference in strength between them and the monster overwintered hives from the previously year.
Overwintering nucs is the secret weapon for sustainability in our beekeeping operations.
I have been promoting this for years as well as Micheal Palmer who has it down pat for those of you in the northern (colder) regions.


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## Bill Bru (Apr 23, 2015)

I have 8 frame medium equipment so I have four high for winter with the top box containing all honey.


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## Kcnc1 (Mar 31, 2017)

First year questions:
To prepare for wintering In 3 mediums I am a little confused. I now have 5. Should I remove and freeze any extra store frames to feed back, or will the bees naturally reduce this storage now that the flow has ended. If I do remove stores, do I do this all at once or start removing some stores now or in the fall? If all at once, when?

I was reluctant to take honey as it is the first year so I only took one frames worth. Got two pints and I am happy.


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