# Oxalic acid vapor -- how to?



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The "chemical" is at the local paint store as wood bleach.

Here's the vaporizer:
http://members.shaw.ca/orioleln/Vaporizer.htm

You can make one with a pipe and heat it with a torch, but you'll have to pay attention to wind drift and make sure you don't breath any. With the one above you can run long wires to the vaporized and stand back 10 or 20 yards.









I used the pipe with a half inch pipe cap as the measurment for two deeps (or three mediums). Seems like that came to about 1.5 grams.

See if you can find bwrangler's (top bar guy's) web site. I can't get to it anymore.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I think the some Europeans are also dribbling an OA solution into hives.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

BWranglers website get's around









http://bwrangler.litarium.com/

here's the stuff about an evaporator

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/oxalic-acid-vaporizer/

there's a LOT of good reading there

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I keep losing track of Bwranglers site. I don't think I've seen that one.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

I'd also recommend you spend some time playing with your evaporator- the cost of the propane is the only real expense, and the practice is useful. I actually setup 2 brood bodies on a bottom board with a plexiglass lid to see how it worked, but you can just set your evaporator on a rock and try it out. Stay upwind of it...

Ideally, you want to sublimate the stuff but that's hard to do with a torch. What actually happens is you sublimate some, melt the rest and then boil it off. Slowly. You don't just want to liquify it, boil it, and spray liquid out the end, nor do you want it to condense in the evaporator and spit white powder into your hive and plug up the tube. You want a good volume of white "smoke" (for want of a better name). Practice! It takes slow heating of the entire evaporator. Overall I heated mine for 4 minutes.

Also, fall treatments are great, but you should treat when you need to treat, not when you'd like to treat. If you can wait till fall, great, but in some cases that could be too late. You should be monitoring throughout the season, and treating when the numbers indicate a rapidly rising population. By fall, the mite population has peaked, and the damage to the bees might already have been done.

OA does seem to work better when hives are broodless, but the vapor treatment can be used anytime- it just won't kill mites actively reproducing in cells so you need to do a series of treatments.

George-


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

bwrangler's becoming quite the website guru isn't he









George
I built a, umm, let's call it a propane sublimator rather than that other name
I didn't have very good results
it didn't produce a lot of "smoke"
I made it from threaded pipe and a screw on cap
I think maybe the thick wall pipe and heavy cap caused it to heat to slowly
I suspect copper tubing would perform better as it would transfer the heat a lot faster
In the end I coughed up the bucks for a JB200 which works great 
did you build yours from pipe or tubing??

Dave


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>did you build yours from pipe or tubing??

Yes!

http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/oa_evaporator1.jpg

I subsequently, after experiments, shortened the copper tubing to about 3" to minimize the amount of OA condensing in the tube. It barely sticks in the entrance. The OA "smoke" tends to climb up the front wall of the hive and roll over the top of the frames and then down between them. Having the tube stick 18" into the hive didn't do anything to help distribute the vapor any, and it kept plugging up with OA crystals. It's easier to get the short tube warm enough to prevent that. More vapor gets into the hive.

There's 3 or 4 other pictures of the evaporator in action. I'd love a JB200, maybe next year.

George-


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## Beemaninsa (Jun 9, 2004)

[ December 17, 2005, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Beemaninsa ]


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## Beemaninsa (Jun 9, 2004)

OK, I are a dummy.I tried a regular outdoor extension cord about 20 ft with my jb200. The wire wasn't thick enough causing the jb200 to heat slowly. For fast sublimation, I suggest use of a thick cord @ about 15 ft.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Beemaninsa
I used 10 ga. solid wire. I have about an 8 foot lenght running from each terminal of my utility tractor battery to the back of my tractor, with a toggle switch on the hot one. This wire powers up the little pump on my sprayer.

I then run another 30 feet of the same stuff, solid 10 gauge, to the jb200. 

That way I can do all my hives and not have to move the tractor.

We used the same set up with my buddy Mitch's hives, but used jumper cables from his lawn tractor battery to the ends of the 30 foot wires.

The jb200 is expensive but wow it sure works a lot better than the crack pipe. I had the same problem, lots of crystals in the pipe and I never felt like I was getting real good evaporation.


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## Drugstore (Dec 6, 2005)

How much does the jb200 cost. I am not sure how this thing works, but it seems like the way to go if you have a bad problem. I would only use it if things got bad, but I would do it to save my bees.
Short of small cell comb or resistant Bees, this sounds like a good, cheap way to go until a better way is found.


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

I ordered my JB200 with money from the 'Honey Jar'. I figured it best to give back to the girls and it would make a good holiday gift ( I wonder if the wife will understand  ). 

I have been using the pipe method but due to a lot of crystalization at the end of the pipe, I wondered about its effectivity. 

The pipe cost less that $20 in pipe parts from Lowes but the girls deserve the best. So as soon as money was available; I figured, why not?

[ December 17, 2005, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: JohnBeeMan ]


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Also BeeBee, if you're not familiar with this stuff It Is Dangerous. you need to protect yourself from spilling on your skin, in your eyes, and don't inhale. Read the msds at

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/o6044.htm

And don't mix it with silver. (remove jewelry) It explodes.

Drugstore, I won't use it. I'd rather go small cell if I have to.

Hawk


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## Drugstore (Dec 6, 2005)

Hawk,
I read the MSDS on this stuff. How do the bees survive? It might kill the mites,but don't you know those bees are under a lot of stress. I guess I will try something else. Has beekeeping come down to this?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I prefer the small cell also but of the treatments, the oxalic vapor seems to do the bees the least harm and the mites the most harm and at a reasonable cost.


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

Michael, Isn't this only true from the oxalic vapor approach? I understand that the trickle method poses a larger risk to the bees health.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Isn't this only true from the oxalic vapor approach? I understand that the trickle method poses a larger risk to the bees health.

I don't know. I've never done the trickle method but the people doing it in Europe mostly say you should only do it about once a year. But the vapor you can do three or four times.

I'm sure they both do some damage. How can they not?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Trickling is pretty fast. I treated 216 6 frame nucs in 2 hours and forty minutes the other day. The solution was already mixed and I used a drench gun to apply. With this type of gun every time you squeeze the handle you apply 5 ml ( or whatever volume you calibrate the gun at). The intake hose sits in the oxalic acid solution. Last year I had a 50 ml syringe that I had to keep filling between hives. No big deal, it's a little slower but $2-3 versus $200 for the drench gun. For singles and nucleus the drizzle method is pretty fast. I do not think I would want to use it for doubles. It would mean splitting the hive in 2 to apply some liquid on the bottom box bees. Lotsa work and somewhat disruptive to the bees. Medivet of High River Alberta is starting the production of an oxalic acid evaporator very soon. It's very slick. Each hive treatment is about 15 seconds. This will be the way to go for commercial guys or sideline beekeepers I think as I have yet to try it. The JB 200 is too slow, awkward for commercial applications. If you do use it make sure all your cables are short and are of heavy gauge. Heavier is better.

Jean-Marc


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

@Jean Marc

In the beginning of OA evaporation tests are made in German bee institute with propane heater and they find out (if heated too fast) almost the total amount of OA was destroyed. 

Same like working with copper pips, its efficient only if heated very slowly. The acid must melt, boil and need a change to evaporate. When heated up to fast you can see lots of smoke. But what kind of smoke, water vapor and carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide or OA vapor? 

Normaly when the crystals slow heated up first the water evaporates (100º C) and than the OA (180º C). 
Heating OA should take at least 40 seconds to a minute. The Varrox takes up to 2 ½ minutes for the evaporation.

Working to fast (that mean with lot of heat) OA divides into Carbon monoxide (Co), carbon dioxide (Co2) and is useless as a mite treatment. Depends on the heating time (under 35 seconds) the efficiency is than 50%. Carbon monoxide is high poison.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Sorry for my mistyping in the last sentence. Correct is 

Depends on the heating time (under 35 seconds) the efficiency is LESS than 50%. Carbon monoxide is high poison.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Thanks Axtmann, that would explain why my crack pipe always filled up with crystals. I was using a very hot torch (MAPP gas).

The JB200 does require 1 minute to evaporate the load. Then you pull it out and reseal the hive. Othewise the bees get on the evaporator and you end up with unnecessary losses of bees.

Easier than it sounds, actually.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

From what little I remember of organic chemistry, I would think that using a poor heat conductor, such as the glass of an actual crack pipe, would work better. Has anyone tried modifying some pyrex glassware? this might serve to heat rather than incinerate the OA. 

disclaimer: I have never used OA, and don't intend to start anytime soon.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The brass pipe made of fittings, heats pretty slowly. It takes about three or four minutes to evaporate.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

Properly heating the old oxalic crack pipe is essential. Always use the lowest setting on the propane torch. Start the process toward the top of the upper part of the evaporator. This will preheat the tube and the "L" fitting. Then gradually work the heat down toward the cap and nipple that contain the oxalic.

I've found that it takes about 3 to 4 minutes to do it properly. Heating can be again focused upward on the evaporator at the end of the cycle.

Just keep repeating: I'm sublimating oxalic at hundreds of degrees, not melting brass at thousands. It's harder for a guy with a little prior propane torch to do than anticipated. Until working with the evaporator, I thought they had only one setting and that was with the valve fully open. Anything else was only for lighting them up :>)))

A few simple out of the hive tests are an execellent idea. I generally do one every season. When you do an open air test be sure to stay clear of the vapors. Initially they will be somewhat visible, but after a minute they become invisible. And without any wind to disperse them, they can hang in an area for awhile. And a beekeeper/family member can walk into them inadvertantly. That's how I got my little experience with oxalic fumes. I can promise you, if you do it once, you won't make that mistake again. So be careful. 

I originally bought a JB evaporator, but it wouldn't fit into my hives as I use migratory bottom boards. So I built the oxalic crack pipe.

Although the electric models are much more appealing to me, they are even fatter than the other JB models.

I've investigated building my own very simple electric model using 1/4" cartridge slim line heaters. But they are expensive and I'm not sure of their useful life.

As an alternative, I've collected the parts for a electric evaporator that will set outside the hive. The heat will be supplied by a halogen bulb and a small computer type cooling fan will distribute the vapor inside the hive. I haven't tested it yet, as my needs for mite treatments are now negligible. I'm not experimenting with the large/small cell concepts or perfecting a commercial approach so have few mites to treat. But these things still have some momentum and I will probably finish it off next season. I'll let you guys know how it works.

Finally, I can't say enough about saftey. It's just too easy to look at the pictures, build an evaporator, and forget about the most important aspect of all. And that's not dead mites!

An emergency plan is needed when working with stuff like this. It needs to be thought out before lighting a single match. And must encompass the whole cycle from storage, through transportation, treatment and cleanup. Are your children interested in bees? Do they get into your bee stuff? What would you do if the evaporator fell out of the hive? Or if the magazine fell off the evaporator half way through a heating cycle? If you got the stuff on your hands and into your eyes what would you do? What if oxalic is spilled inside the bee truck? What about a lighted torch overturned in the dry grass? Or that match used to light the torch? If you smell even the slightest strange vinegar-metallic like smell what would you do? Do you have enough water on hand? Does anyone know where you are and what you are about? 

Just some ideas. I hear that a ND commercial beekeeper about did himself in using oxalic. I don't know the details, but I suspect that fuming a few hundreds of hives in a holding yard would pose some significant risks when compared to fuming just a few.

Regards
Dennis

[ March 05, 2006, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: B Wrangler ]


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## Beemaninsa (Jun 9, 2004)

bwrangler, good post. Thanks. Some beekeepers will not wear recommeded safety protection. If a person is careful, one is likely not to burn or kill himself, but I am curious about low dose long term effects of OA on people. I also wonder how/if OA crystals could be encapsulated for safer handleing. I have also run into the problem of electric vaporizers being too thick for pallet entrances. I look forward to your new design. You can sublimate from the hive top,but I think it works better from the bottom.


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## Beemaninsa (Jun 9, 2004)

[ December 20, 2005, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Beemaninsa ]


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Properly heating the old oxalic crack pipe is essential.

Dennis, pretty much everything I know about evaporating oxalic acid I either learned from your website or from my own experiments and observations. My procedure is pretty much exactly as you describe.

>I've found that it takes about 3 to 4 minutes to do it properly. Heating can be again focused upward on the evaporator at the end of the cycle.

Again, I have to agree completely. I use a digital kitchen timer set to count down from 19 minutes and I heat the unit for 4 minutes, then leave the hive closed up another 15 minutes when the timer goes off. I hold the torch flame stationary on the cap end for about 30 seconds during the middle of the heating process.

George-


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I can't help wondering if anyone has thought of putting this stuff into solution and boiling it off, to make vapor. That ought to teach those darn mites!

Dickm


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## Mitch (Jul 7, 2003)

I liked the jb200 when david brought it over.we could get upwind and farenough away to be safe.There was nuthing left in the pan and we had visable smoke comeing from the hive,so we knew it was working.I know as a rule beekeepers seem to be some of the biggest tight wads , but this little tool seems to be worth it.It works well and it is safer to use.The trick is the heavy 10 gage wire and i a good strong battery.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I'm on a second season with mine and like it. I use a mower battery and jumper cables.

Dickm


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

>>How much does the jb200 cost. 

I believe I paid $70 for mine which included shipping and handling. I don't think its that expensive if compared to Apistan/Checkmite. Which you have to keep buying. 

The crack pipe worked only minimally for me. The JB200 works great.


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