# double-wall construction?



## Paraplegic Racehorse (Jan 25, 2007)

[also posted at BeeMaster forums]

Does anyone, particularly in areas of cold windy winters, have actual experience using double-wall hives? Do the bees in these hives seem to winter better, worse or about the same as single-wall homes? Has anyone thought to experiment with this? If so, are there construction plans available?

The only reverences to double-wall hives I've been able to find are those for the English WBC and Irish CDB hive and both at Dave Cushman's site. I wonder what advantages they may offer in terms of wind/rain/cold resistance over their single-wall sisters.


----------



## louis1st (Oct 17, 2004)

I have heard of problems with both the hives as there can be some water left in between the walls causing the wood to root and also with the colonies as they are too warm compared to what they should be and with too much moisture not being evacuated

I would suggest you just stick with normal hives


----------



## beehoppers (Jun 16, 2005)

I like to build my own hive bodies out of cypress to avoid having the hand holds routed in the sides of commercial boxes. They must create cold spot being so thin and all.


----------



## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Good Morning,

I got to thinking about ventilation and such, and it occured to me that the issue is drafts, not so much the ammount of ventilation. My guess is that a double wall hive would fare better in the northern lattitudes. The key would be making sure that it was properly ventilated, and that the vents where done in such a way that they where not aligned, maybe even baffled to avoid drafts.

Dead air space is very insulatory. Perhaps a piece of that blue air filter material they sell as a reusable filter would be a good "baffle" for the top vents.

Actually the more I think about it, the more ideas I'm getting. That filter stuff might make a good insulator for the inside of the outer cover instead of a piece of ridgid foam.

I used to make dog houses out of stacked up bales of hay for the winter. Has anyone tried that with their hives?

Anyway my 2 centavos.

Thanks, Albert


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Double walled hives were popular more than 100 years ago. The way I see it, if they were so much better for northern beekeepers, why don't you see them today?


----------



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>They must create cold spot being so thin and all.

They do create cold spots, it's been documented though it's debatable whether they significantly impact the overall thermal characteristics of the hive or not. I'm inclined to think they do. This has been discussed before.

As for double walled hives, I think it's something worth investigating. I'm not aware of any plans. I have thought about making a plywood shell that would fit over a standard hive and which could be removed and stored in the spring, but I didn't get around to trying it this winter- I'm still experimenting with wrapping hives with tar paper.

In areas with real winters (as opposed to some of our Southern Brethren for whom 30 degrees is a "deep freeze") the thermal characteristics of a standard single-wall wooden hive body are less than adequate. That some colonies manage to overwinter in areas with weeks of sub-zero weather like we're seeing in Maine right now is a tribute to the bee's adaptation to harsh conditions. We can improve their odds by giving them a hive to winter in that is better suited to cold weather. In particular, hives do better overwintering with good ventilation and a warm lid which causes water vapor to condense on the sidewalls where it can run down the sides rather than on the top where it can rain down on the cluster, with devastating results.

The ideal "perfect" winter here in Maine in my opinion would be a relatively constant overnight temperature in the 20s, warming up to about 30 degrees during the day, with periodic warm ups to about 40 degrees F allowing cleansing flights. It would last from November until March. Is that too much to ask for?

Apparently it is. Winter in Maine is anything but "ideal" so it makes sense to try and design a hive wintering system that makes the bees at least think they're experiencing a perfect winter even if they're not. Perhaps just wrapping with tar paper and insulating the lid is sufficient- it seems to be so for many beekeepers. This doesn't mean we can't come up with other schemes to improve the overwintering odds and reduce our losses as much as possible.


----------



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Double walled hives were popular more than 100 years ago. The way I see it, if they were so much better for northern beekeepers, why don't you see them today?

Gone the way of the Dodo? Sometimes things fall out of use for a good reason. Sometimes they fall out of use for other, not so good reasons.

It's wrong to assume that all progress is forward, or that all forward motion is progress, but you know that


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>Perhaps just wrapping with tar paper and insulating the lid is sufficient- it seems to be so for many beekeepers. This doesn't mean we can't come up with other schemes to improve the overwintering odds and reduce our losses as much as possible.

I think it matters more what's inside the hive, than the style of hive. The bees only warm the cluster, and inches away from the cluster, the temp is the same as the outside temp. Single walled hives wrapped in black felt paper will warm up as soon as the sun shines on them. Double walled hives won't. It's the old ice house example. Once the ice is packed away, and insulated with sawdust, it never warms up. Packed colonies...and I assume double walled hives, would behave the same. 

So, I think the other scheme would be to improve our stocks of bee, using acclimatized northern stock, and not southern Italian types of bee. Southern Italians are great for producing packages in Georgia, but not much good at wintering in the north. Trying to come up with some "scheme" to overcome basic faults with southern bees is not my idea of progress. Bees have been wintering successfully for eons of time...since the last ice age...with no special double walled insulated hives. We should take advantage of what they have to offer us, and not try to correct basic faults through crutch type methods.


----------



## Focus on Bees (Mar 6, 2006)

My thoughts exactly Michael, well said.


----------



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Trying to come up with some "scheme" to overcome basic faults with southern bees is not my idea of progress.

Absolutely, and I wasn't particularly thinking of how to get southern bees to survive better in northern climates which is I feel a futile effort. I'm done with buying bees unless I can convince one particular northern beekeeper I know to part with a couple of queens or maybe nucs, to add a little genetic diversity to my apiary









But I'm a thinking/scheming/tinkering type and I'm probably not done with experimenting with overwintering schemes. Tar paper and an insulated lid afterall is an overwintering "scheme". I may not come up with anything better but I'll certainly learn something from my mistakes









Around here, overwintering losses range from 10% to more than 50% and almost universally, the various beekeepers all think their respective losses are both "normal" and even more surprisingly, they think they're "acceptable" as well. Granted, there are a lot of variables at work other than just how the hives are physically prepared for winter. Perhaps I'm just still to new a beekeeper but I've not become that resigned or complacent yet. I lost 2/3 of my hives the first winter. I'm looking to improve on that some









So I'm more complacent than I was my first year though







My first winter I remember comparing hive losses with cow losses and asked a local dairy farmer how many cows he expected to lose over the winter; he looked at me like I was crazy and said "best not lose any?"


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Double walled hives were popular more than 100 years ago

So was putting the hives in a cellar and burying them in straw in holes.







And depriving them ENTIRELY of pollen so they wouldn't get dysentery and so they wouldn't raise brood...

I've started putting mine up against each other for the winter, so two sides of all but the end hives are protected.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

People keep trying to re-invent a terribly bad idea. Read the bee mags from the 1920's and 1930's and you will very soon find out why the double wall hives went out of style.

1. Bees don't heat the inside of the hive, they heat the cluster.

2. If the hive is too well insulated, it will stay COLD inside even on a warm sunny day when the bees could fly for a cleansing flight.

3. Double wall construction increases hive cost by more than double.

4. Moisture does not pass through double wall boxes as easily as single wall. Guess what? Metabolizing sugar produces water. Not just the water that is already in the honey, but more water as a result of oxidizing the C6H12O6 sugar molecule. Notice that H12O6? Divide that down and you get 6 H2O water molecules. Thats not quite the way it works, but you get the idea.

5. In side by side tests of double wall vs single wall hives, the wintering results were BETTER in single wall.

6. The single biggest factor in poor wintering is not cold weather. Its bees running out of honey.

7. The second biggest factor in poor wintering is moisture accumulation in the hive.

8. If you want to improve your wintering results, focus on adequate stores, ventilation of moisture, and healthy colonies.


There are a LOT of reasons why we don't use double wall anymore.

If you want to do something effective for your bees, consider some type of black paper wrap to absorb sun in the winter. It has been proven effective at improving wintering and is better in the north than in the south.

Fusion


----------



## balhanapi (Aug 22, 2006)

<<...6 H2O water molecules. Thats not quite the way it works, but you get the idea.>>

I think the equation is 
C6H12O6 + 6O2 = 6CO2 + 6H2O 
so its exactly the way you said it is..


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>I'm done with buying bees unless I can convince one particular northern beekeeper I know to part with a couple of queens or maybe nucs, to add a little genetic diversity to my apiary 

Twist my arm in early May. Might just have some. Went into a yard on Wednesday. All colonies alive, all nucs alive. I expect things to changs, but looks good so far. I'll try to have queens from mid-June to mid-August. Hoping to have better weather early summer, this year.


----------



## shorts (May 7, 2006)

I built my own hive last year and I took 2 inch silver backed foam and insulated the sides, back and top. I thought that my bees were dead, but low and behold they were still alive about mid winter. We had been having -20 for several weeks at a time. So after it warmed up a bit I went out and put a foam top feeder on it. By the way I am in Alaska.... So far so good... shorts


----------



## Paraplegic Racehorse (Jan 25, 2007)

> 3. Double wall construction increases hive cost by more than double.

Most of my cost, discounting the bees themselves, is in frames and foundation. In fact, if I were to triple my lumber cost my foundation cost is still higher, so there's no possible way this holds up.

> 4. Moisture does not pass through double wall boxes as easily as single wall.

Correct in principal, but avoiding the initial moisture question: Would the moisture escaping through the inner hive bodies settle in the dead air space of the outer wall, thereby removing it from the area of the cluster?

> 5. In side by side tests of double wall vs single wall hives, the wintering results were BETTER in single wall.

Would you cite a source? For weeks, now, I have tried to find something (ANYTHING!) comparing double- and single-wall hive performance.


----------



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Twist my arm in early May.

How did you know I was talking about you? Was I *that* obvious?









Fusion, I'll take on a few of your items:

>1. Bees don't heat the inside of the hive, they heat the cluster.

This is a big source of confusion Fusion









The fact of the matter is, bees DO heat the inside of their hive and the only way you can argue otherwise is to assume there is no heat loss from the cluster, which is hard to argue. There is no perfect insulator, honey bee clusters included. If the cluster didn't lose heat over time then they'd only need to eat enough honey to maintain their metabolic processes and being inactive, they wouldn't consume much honey at all. They consume honey to provide energy so they can exercise their wing muscles to generate heat to stay warm and do so, continuously, as long as the ambient temperature requires it. Then they go into cooling mode. The colder it is the harder they have to work to stay warm.

Referring to the USDA article on the Thermology of Wintering Honey Bee Colonies:

http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/thermology/techbulletin1429.htm

This statement says it all:

"One day when it was 7º F. outside, the temperatures at all thermocouples were recorded. They ranged from 14º to 94º."

Referring to one of the diagrams, one sees that the coldest temperatures were recorded directly underneath the cluster which makes sense because heat rises, but it radiates in all directions:

http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/thermology/fig2.htm

So honey bee clusters DO heat the inside of the hive therefore the thermal characteristics of a hive can have a profound effect on the cluster, how hard they have to work to stay warm, and how much honey they consume in the process. If this were not the case then wrapping hives in felt paper would have no significant effect, but it does because it improves the thermal characteristics of the hive both by increasing solar gain and by retarding heat loss from the inside. Likewise, insulating the lid retards the condensation of water vapor where it can rain down on the cluster, and it also retards the loss of heat through the top.

If all hives had to do was provide shelter from the wind and let moisture out, then we could satisfactorily winter honey bees over in a perforated cardboard box. In milder climates, I'm sure people can. I'm not about to try it here in Maine









> 4. Moisture does not pass through double wall boxes as easily as single wall.

I doubt a significant amount of moisture leaves a hive through the sidewalls in any case. The bees wax the inside which effectively eliminates the passage of water vapor, or at least severely retards it- hence the need for ventilation.

A lot of people swear by those stryrofoam hives (BeeMax?) and there's no way those are the least bit permeable to moisture. This argument against double walled hives er... doesn't hold water!

I'm not suggesting that double walled hives are the greatest idea since sliced bread, just that wintering schemes, at least for this tyro, are not a fully done deal.

>8. If you want to improve your wintering results, focus on adequate stores, ventilation of moisture, and healthy colonies.

An indisputable statement if there ever was one.


----------



## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

"ventilation of moisture..."

I was sleeping in a tent again this week when the temperature out side was close to zero. I think there are some similarities between the thermology of a geezer in a down sleeping bag and a bee cluster. I can maintain a cozy temperature within my bag, but there's no way I can heat the interior of the tent and still get the ventilation needed to handle the water vapor I breath out. There simply has to be enough air moving through the tent to carry that vapor out or the interior walls will freeze, then thaw when the temp rises and soak everything. The thermology report summary says that the bees don't attempt to heat the hive. 

"(17) Honey bees make no attempt to maintain the temperature in the domicile outside the winter cluster."

I don't have banks of thermocouples in my tent or bag, but casual observations over the years tell me I can't have both, and that ventilation is the priority. It seems that the bees don't have a requirement to heat the entire hive either.


----------



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>a geezer in a down sleeping bag and a bee cluster.

You'd be a lot warmer in a bee cluster.

>"(17) Honey bees make no attempt to maintain the temperature in the domicile outside the winter cluster."

I agree, bees don't try to heat the space around them. I never said they did, only that heat escaping the cluster DOES heat the space around them, to some extent. It's inevitable. I don't try to heat the outdoors when I put wood in my stove to heat my house, but I do. I could provide outside air for draft to my stove and thereby minimize infiltration into my house, but I guess I'd rather just burn more wood. So a lot of my heat goes up the chimney and a good deal goes out through the walls and windows.

So you're quite correct about the trade off between ventilation and heating. Much of the warmth given off by the cluster is contained in the moist air (moist air holds more heat than dry air does) which takes the heat away with it as it is vented out. Some of the heat is going to be lost out through the sides and top of the hive. If the inside surface is say 15 degrees F and the outside surface is at 7 degrees F, there's a gradient there.

This would seem to make an argument for better insulated boxes and protection from the wind which would increase the heat loss to the outside. It certainly supports (or explains) the reasons for having a well insulated lid.

Some of this discussion is purely theoretical, but there are practical considerations. Have we attained the absolute best scheme for wintering honey bees in northern climates? I don't think so. Even Michael Bush, who's been keeping bees for a few years now has taken to pushing his hives together for the winter. Something new he's trying. He's still experimenting.


----------



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Hey George - if you're willing I think I've got the makings of an experiment for you. Several years ago when I bought out a fellow moving to New Jersey, I acquired several "Montana" hives. Tony J identified them when he was checking for scale. They are a double walled hive that uses standard frames. If memory serves me correctly I've got 3 deeps, 2 bottom boards and 1 outer cover. So there should be enough to make a full hive.

The boxes are buried in my storage unit - Somewhere I got the notion that those hives might be worth as much as everything else I was buying put together so I haven't painted them up or anything. But if you're game to experiment, you're welcome to them. All I ask is that you report your results on Beesource.

Should I bring them down to the state meeting?


----------



## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

You WILL help the hives if you put then somewhere out of the direct force of the wind, or erect a temporary wind break in the winter. Both from the wind-chill effect, and by lessening the likelihood that the top will blow off.


----------



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Should I bring them down to the state meeting?

You should! I'll give them a try. Nothing ventured, nothing gained









George-


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

George,

Nothing should ever prevent you from experimenting. As for your quibble about foundation and frames, I think you can pretty easily see that I meant the construction of the hive body. If you want to carry your liberal interpretation to the max, think about the bees. They are obviously a much greater investment than the cost of the foundation. After all, a good package of bees is $60 to $90. Thats significantly more than your foundation.

I think Coyote pretty much nailed your feet to the floor with his comparison of a man in a tent in freezing weather. I've been the man in that tent and I've gotten up the next morning with the top of the tent frozen up with ice. It didn't take me long to learn to let a little air flow. 

You can do things to improve wintering. These are all well documented in available literature such as The Hive and The Honeybee.

Bees should be properly situated in a location with a southern exposure and NOT in a frost pocket. A good windbreak must prevent the wind from blowing straight across the hives. The bees should have plenty of stores PROPERLY ARRANGED. They should be healthy. They should have lots of bees of the RIGHT AGE. They must have adequate ventilation to vent the moisture from the hive but not so much that excess cold drafts go through the hive.

You can overwinter colonies of bees in the flimsiest of boxes. Brother Adam wrote of wintering bees in hives made from packing crates. There was a real shortage of wood and the only thing available to make hives was thin sheets from packing crates.

PPL Racehorse, You say you can't find anything comparing single vs double wall boxes for overwintering. Look up the works of Farrer.

One person I read about had it all figured out. He painted one side of his hives white and the other side black. In winter, he flipped them 180 degrees and the black side faced south to absorb heat. In summer, the white side reflected the excess heat. I've got pictures in my mind of George out there very carefully painting his hives two tone. Bet he is a Democrat.

Darrel Jones

[ January 28, 2007, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Fusion_power ]


----------



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>As for your quibble about foundation and frames, I think you can pretty easily see that I meant the construction of the hive body.

That was Paraplegic Racehorse's quibble







I don't question that a double walled hive body would use more material than a single walled hive body.

>I think Coyote pretty much nailed your feet to the floor

Just one foot. I can still go in circles









>Bees should be properly situated in....

Yes yes yes! All that, and more. For what it's worth, I went and checked my hives this afternoon, I haven't been up to see them since the first of January. Today was cold at my house where we have a lot of shade, I think the air temperature was probably around 30 F. There was a little melting going on only where the sun didn't have to compete with the breeze and had a chance to warm up a dark surface a little. All in all, a cold day. When I got to the apiary, out of the wind and in the sun, it was almost like spring. There were a few bees flying around most of the hives. All the hives were still alive and 2 of the 4 nucs looked OK. The other two... I didn't see or hear any activity. They may just have been sitting tight. I tried to slip a hive tool under my 2 single deep hives but they were well frozen down and I didn't want to bust `em loose. No signs of dysentery, very few dead bees on the snow.

I'd lost 1/2 my hives by this time last winter. It's too soon to be making predictions, but I'm feeling pretty optimistic about this winter. Still another month and a half to go, but it's all downhill now. We're over the hump. I hope


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think a tent in winter is great model. But I've found that a light colored tent is warmer, I assume because of reflected infrared. A thicker fabric is warmer than a thinner fabric. A double wall is warmer than a single wall. A smaller tent is warmer than a larger tent. And the temperature inside the tent may not be the temperature inside the bag, but the temperature inside the tent goes up as you add insulation or reflection and that makes it feel noticeably warmer.

As Walt Wright says, if you put a baby in a 70 F bedroom it will be warmer than in the middle of a 70 F gymnasium.


----------



## shorts (May 7, 2006)

Hi guys and gals

Well I went out and checked onthe hive this morning and apparently the double wass or insulation does not to seem to have worked. I have a whole bunch of frozen bees. they did not make it. still lots of food left but apparently not enough ventilation... Now I am bummed and need to do some more reading. So much for haveing bees last a harsh winter. Global warming,,/?? hah.... not here Shorts


----------



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Sorry to hear that shorts. Don't give up!

Are you sure it was lack of ventilation that did them in? What did you do to provide ventilation? Upper and lower entrances? What were the conditions in the hive when you looked? Ice or water evident? Size/location and appearance of the cluster? Adjacent stores? Any brood? Mite load last time you checked? Mites on the bottom board?

Surely, lack of ventilation will kill a hive, usually due to condensation of moisture raining down on the cluster, but lots of things will kill a hive, or contribute to it's death. And sometimes bees just die.


----------



## mintong (Apr 3, 2004)

I have thought of gluing 2" blue foam insulation to the outside of my hives with thin plywood on the outside of that for wear and tear. I used to put a large blue foam box around the sides and on top on my Italian hives (Russian hives don't seem to need it). Don't forget to leave a top entrance for ventilation and a exit for when hives are drifted in. I know hives put a lot heat out when the uninsulated ones will have a 1/2 inch area melted away from the hive in the snow drifts.


----------



## BeekeepingIsGood (Aug 12, 2012)

> As for your quibble about foundation and frames, I think you can pretty easily see that I meant the construction of the hive body.


What about the cost of time spent in wrapping hives? Cost of a day in the apiary every year putting on tar paper vs building more permanently insulated boxes?

This old bee journal seems to suggest many were fond of doubled walled hives in the summer.

Derek Mitchell's recent studies seem to suggest benefits all year too.

I have been building taller, narrower hives with 35mm cedar for it's thermal properties. I think the benefits have been more obvious to me in the summer. It has left me wanting to further improve the thermal properties of my design and a double wall seems like the most obvious way to do that.

The straw wall approach seems interesting too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq5ZTtNfonM


----------



## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

I'm curious if a "double wall" constructed like a section super would have the desired benefit.


----------



## Matt F (Oct 7, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> I think a tent in winter is great model. But I've found that a light colored tent is warmer, I assume because of reflected infrared. A thicker fabric is warmer than a thinner fabric. A double wall is warmer than a single wall. A smaller tent is warmer than a larger tent. And the temperature inside the tent may not be the temperature inside the bag, but the temperature inside the tent goes up as you add insulation or reflection and that makes it feel noticeably warmer.


Exactly. Inside of a tent in winter is substantially warmer than the ambient air. Take it from an experienced winter camper. All this talk about warming the hive (or not) is just people talking past each other. When it's cold, the inside of the hive is warmer than the outside air, but not nearly as warm as the cluster. The bees obviously don't TRY to warm the whole hive but the thermodynamics of convection, radiation, and conduction don't care about the bees' intent.


----------



## BeekeepingIsGood (Aug 12, 2012)

> Exactly. Inside of a tent in winter is substantially warmer than the ambient air.


The problem I see with putting to much into this comparison is that people usually sleep on the bottom of a tent. Bees move up.

Tent's are meant for temporary, quick + easy shelter. If you were building yourself a more permanent home wouldn't you want to insulate it?




> When it's cold, the inside of the hive is warmer than the outside air, but not nearly as warm as the cluster.


How much can insulation work to make the hive closer to cluster temp?




> The bees obviously don't TRY to warm the whole hive


It seems evident that when the hive gets cold that bees will actively try to retain as much of their own heat by clustering. It doesn't seem obvious at all that they would actually like a cold hive. In a smaller sized hive, with less heat lost through conduction, it might be warmer and the need for the bees to form a tight cluster may well be reduced.

The question for me is not so much what the bees are trying to do, but what they need to do under the conditions we subject them to.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

After meeting requirements for wind break, southern exposure, no frost pocket, plenty of stores, and healthy bees, the only major factor left is ventilation. If you want to play around with variant hive designs, please think of ways to get moisture out of the hive and prevent it from condensing on inner surfaces. Moisture condenses because there is a temperature cline, a difference of temperature with a thermal insulator between. The outside air is cold. The inside air is warmer and humid. The objective is to get the moisture out without letting cluster heat escape. Achieving this goal might involve using a different material for the hive. Tall "chimney" type hives have been tried and found that too much space above the cluster results in moisture condensing on the combs and honey above the bees, then dripping down and killing hte cluster.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

BeekeepingIsGood said:


> It seems evident that when the hive gets cold that bees will actively try to retain as much of their own heat by clustering. It doesn't seem obvious at all that they would actually like a cold hive. In a smaller sized hive, with less heat lost through conduction, it might be warmer and the need for the bees to form a tight cluster may well be reduced.


The issue with making the hive "warmer", is that 40 degrees F is the best temperature for wintering bees (when there is nothing for them to forage anyway). When the temperature is higher than than 40 degrees, the bees are more active and likely to want to fly, but there is nothing to be foraged, so they burn through stores faster, for no gain. Colder than 40 degrees means the bees have to do more "shivering" of their flight muscles to generate heat to keep the cluster warm, so again they burn additional stores.


----------



## BeekeepingIsGood (Aug 12, 2012)

[QUOTE ]40 degrees F is the best temperature for wintering bees (when there is nothing for them to forage anyway)
[/QUOTE]

Are you basing this idea on the Southwick experiment?



[QUOTE ]too much space above the cluster results in moisture condensing on the combs and honey above the bees[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't recommend 'too much space' either. The entire point is to make it easier for the bees to control the temperature. So there is not problematic condensation.


----------



## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

From #19
"You'd be a lot warmer in a bee cluster."
Just bring a couple of dogs on your camping trip, they'll happily provide the rest of the cluster.

Although there isn't much overlap between the need for extra insulation and small hive beetle range, where there is one would have to be careful not to allow beetles access to the hollow space.
Bill


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> 40 degrees F is the best temperature for wintering bees (when there is nothing for them to forage anyway)


BeekeepingIsGood said:


> Are you basing this idea on the Southwick experiment?


I'm not aware that I have read the "Southwick experiment".

The 40 degrees comes from reading multiple posts by Beesource member _Ian_ (wintering indoors in Manitoba) and reading various USDA studies in the Beesource Resources area. Here are a couple of those relevant papers ...
http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/the-thermology-of-wintering-honey-bee-colonies/
http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/electric-heating-of-honey-bee-hives/


You can search Beesource for _Ian_'s "wintering" posts, or also read his blog:
http://www.stepplerfarms.com/StepplerHoney.html

There is quite a bit available there, including photos if you explore the site. Look for the term "wintering shed".



Of course, if one is wintering outdoors, temperature control of hives is not likely achievable. My point was simply that "warmer" is not always better when wintering bees.


P.S. You likely can fix the quote syntax in post #35 by removing the space between the "[QUOTE" and the following "]".


----------



## pskoskiewicz (Apr 14, 2014)

Double walled hives *are* being used, just not in the English-speaking countries. In Poland they are referred to as 'Warsaw hives' - https://www.google.pl/#q=warszawskie+ule. 

As for ventilation, think about a nest in an empty wood hollow, or even colonies living in ewes or other parts of residences. Usually, there's absolutely no easy way for ventilation and yet they manage. Bees can ventilate as much as it's needed. I can't find a reference (ABJ perhaps?), but I recall reading an article recently about colony thermoregulation and how much warmer wood cavities in the wild were (much, much thicker wood all around), with a lot more humidity, which the bees were preferring.

I'm increasingly convinced that focusing on ventilation is a distraction - keep the bees warm. The old bugaboo about the tar paper getting warm faster while the double insulated hive remains cold is amusing,  As it was pointed out above, bees generate the heat and they can do it rapidly, as needed. People have stuck many thermometers into hives to confirm this.

Przemek


----------



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

BTDT - and it works just fine.

I live in northern NY, so it's cold here. Probably not as cold as northern interior ME or Ak, but still cold (Z4b/5a).

My hives are all pushed together on the the same stand, this winter in a line of nine. All stacks carefully laid up so they are as square and smooth-faced as possible.

There are two inches (R-10) of foam insulation between the hives (this keeps the telecovers from banging into one another.)

There are four inches (R-20), in two, 2" layers across the backs.

There are four inches (R-20) on the leeward end and five (R-25) inches on the windard end.

The front has three (R-15) inches.

There's a tarp secured over the top, back and ends to keep moisture from getting down between the insulation layers and the wood sides.

My bottom entrances are reduced to just the small 3/4" notch in the wooden entrance reducer.

I have top entrances in a feeding shim are approx. 1/2" - 7/8" (depending on the attachment of the individual colony to top-entrance use.) Each of the top entrances is wind baffled, so it's protected from direct drafts.

Each stack has a quilt box on top, with a fabric floor and filled with pine shavings. QB made from comb-depth honey supers, recycled.

Above the QB is a shim with a 1" diameter hole, left wide open to vent moisture. 

Above that, inside the telecover, is 1.5" of foam (R-7.5). Note absence of inner cover.

My nucs winter in the same number and size of boxes, though I reduce the 10-frame dimension to five-frames by adding wooden follower boards and insulation inside the boxes (so figure another R-5 to 7, on each side of those cluster.)

This winter I haven't done anything else (no wool blankets, yet!), and this year for the first time I don't have interior insulation inside all the hives, except for the nucs as noted above.

I don't see moisture problems; I don't see ventilation problems; I don't see draft issues. 

And, so far, I have never lost a colony over the three winters I've had bees, and all nine are looking good as of today.

My bees are local mutts (all from swarms), so nothing special in terms of hardiness, i.e. not Russians.

Insulation lowers the energy costs to the bees of maintaining their core cluster temps and it moderates and stabilizes (in both directions) the daily winter temperature swings. I read that natural tree cavities have a typical R-value of R-5 to R-15, so I shoot for the high end to account for the leakiness inherent in stacked boxes compared to an intact tree-section. Pine wood has an R-value of about R-1 *per inch *(and even my extra-thick Betterbee boxes are less than a inch.)

It baffles me why insulation is not standard equipment in the north. I see people messing around with flimsy black plastic sleeves filled bubble wrap, which barely last a couple of seasons. Foam insulation lasts for years, doesn't soak up water and is easily stored. And unlike insulated boxes it doesn't add any extra mass or weight to the stacks during the active-working parts of the year. 

Enj.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

reviving an older thread.
anybody in this thread still using double wall hives?

I have made some Buckeye hives and can help with ideas.

GG


----------



## Taku (5 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> reviving an older thread.
> anybody in this thread still using double wall hives?
> 
> I have made some Buckeye hives and can help with ideas.
> ...


Nearly all of my hives are double wall. And most of them Latvian standard hives (close relative of British standard). See page 41 https://www.strops.lv/attachments/article/66/stropi.pdf


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> reviving an older thread.
> anybody in this thread still using double wall hives?
> 
> I have made some Buckeye hives and can help with ideas.
> ...


It is interesting to see the change in perspective in the last 15 years, regarding the value of insulation to prevent cold surface condensation dripping on bees.

Foam insulation will likely take precedence over the double wall construction due to cost and labor factors and perhaps the bulk. Throw up some pics of your hives; I think I mentioned that they were "eye candy" I would put money on their effectiveness.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Taku said:


> Nearly all of my hives are double wall. And most of them Latvian standard hives (close relative of British standard). See page 41 https://www.strops.lv/attachments/article/66/stropi.pdf


Any way to get an English version of this PDF?
Looks interesting.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Just so it happens, this winter I am live-testing a double-wall construction setup.
It is suitable for migratory beekeeping because it is light enough (unlike classic heavy double-wall setups).
I simply took free, half-rotten Lang equipment set and converted it to *my frame.*
So far I like it (bees winter on 6 frame setup in it).
But we will see how the summer usage will work out.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

I made 7 of these type hives.
8F 2 deep + 2 Medium.
have bees in 7 this winter , trialed 5 last winter.






































I made some raw wool inserts, at 1.5 inches.
they run the full height, see the last pic.

I can offer the following tip:
I made the gap 1 5/8 and the inserts 1 1/2 so as you can guess, any slight shift of boxes or deviation of squareness has them not fitting bummer.
so My fix is this winter I am making 7 more with a 2 inch gap for the 1.5 inserts I have already made.
then I will make another set of inserts at 1 1/8 to allow lots more clearance.













once the pieces ar determined, I just made a stack of each 28 deep and made the 14 of each side.
the lids and bottoms are obviously different size.

was a week to get the pieces made, I did need to thickness plane, rip to width and cut to length.
a few days to build, each corner is screwed only, in case I change my mind I can take apart and go back to single wall.
a week to paint.

I started with 1x10 rough sawn Pine and 1x7 for the mediums.

they are a bit bulky to move/lift with bees and honey in them, However I am mostly stationary with these in a bee shed.

GG


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Michael Palmer said:


> Double walled hives were popular more than 100 years ago. The way I see it, if they were so much better for northern beekeepers, why don't you see them today?


Replaying almost 16 years later I would say it depends where you live.

You can still buy double wall Ul Warszawski in Poland and they say there is no easier to overwinter hive in Poland.

My dad 50 years ago was making them in his workshop he had in the basement of an* apartment* building back in Wroclaw city in Poland. He used styrofoam as insulation between walls.

When you look in Europe double wall hives are now replaced by poly hives by Lyson, Paradise, Apimaye,....

Einraumbeute with double walls - English version: Modified Einraumbeute still going strong.


----------



## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

I am planning some in the next few weeks.

While it is true that double walled hives were popular 100 years ago, and fell out of favor, things have changed a bit.

100 years ago, winter losses through usda zone 5, and probably usda zone 4, were minimal. Roughly 1%. That was in uninsulated hives. Varroa changed that. 

Consequently, bees were cheap, since winter losses were low. The more northerly beekeepers (usda zone 3) bought new bees every year, because it was more economical than wintering them.

100 years ago, insulating materials were bulky and messy. Mostly wood shavings or vermiculite. Not those nice EPS boards.

About 95 years ago, the USDA started fooling around with thermocouples, and they discovered that warm air rises. In other words, that in a vertical hive with a top and bottom vent, the warm air from the cluster went up and out through the top, not out to the sides.
As a result they concluded that there was no benefit to hive insulation, since the air at the same level as the cluster near the side walls was at the same temperature as the outside air. This was the origin of the "the bees only heat the cluster not the hive" axiom. This pretty much ended the insulated hive fad.

However, varroa changed everything.

Now it is difficult to winter bees, and anything that gives them an advantage is worth trying.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

the insulation is not "mandatory" it is "helpful" IMO
with insulation Bees can cover more brood for faster spring build up.
faster spring build up can offer sooner and bigger splits and a crop from earlier in the year.
normally the dandelion nectar is used up to grow bees, if the hive is a bit bigger some of it gets stored or used for comb building. as well the weather seems to fluctuate more now than back in the 70,s and 80,s when I did not insulate.
a badly timed cold snap can chill brood, so here the insulation can assist the hive that has lot of brood in a late spring cool time frame.

Varroa, IMO is not the boogy man, to unleash Insulation, unless you want more bees for increase to make up for the Varroa losses.
IF the hive has Varroa and cannot generate heat, the "insulation difference" is dead in Feb VRS dead by New Year.
I am commenting from the michigan prospective, perhaps in the south with insulation the non heat generating bees can survive, but IMO spring build up would be a challenge then anyway.

I like insulation, I do not like putting it on taking it off and storing it.

GG


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> ....
> 
> I like insulation, I do not like putting it on taking it off and storing it.
> 
> GG


This is why I decided to go with poly hives


----------



## Meady Beekeeper (8 d ago)

jtgoral said:


> This is why I decided to go with poly hives


What brand of poly hive do you use?


----------



## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Gray Goose said:


> Varroa, IMO is not the boogy man, to unleash Insulation, unless you want more bees for increase to make up for the Varroa losses.


Varroa is a major factor.
Because of varroa winter losses are much higher and bees are more expensive. It isn't clear insulation improves winter survival, but it is clear that beekeepers are willing to go to significant lengths to improve winter survival. Insulation is one of those things beekeepers try. Small commercial (non migratory) beekeepers in SE Wisconsin still winter in uninsulated Langstroth hives, but have 30% winter losses. Before Varroa, the losses were negligible.

Whatever the effects of varroa have been, the observation from the 1930's that warm air rises isn't the whole story. If the cluster is in the center of the hive with space all around then it is pretty obvious that the cluster heat plume actually cools the hive by drawing cold air into the hive which is entrained with the rising air from the cluster.

I remember camping with my high school class in an old military surplus tent in the woods on the shore of Winter Road Lake in northern MN (usda zone 2) in January of 1975. It was very cold outside, but there was a barrel wood stove to heat the tent. As it got cold at night we fired that stove hotter and hotter, until it glowed red, and the stove pipe did too. There was a lot of heat going up the chimney, but the stove drew so much cold air into the tent that we were very cold. Then we figured the stove being that hot was hazardous, so we closed down the damper. Within minutes the whole tent was toasty warm inside.

Analogously, the heating effect of the cluster in the hive is strongly dependant on the extent to which airflow through the hive is restricted. It is also highly dependant on the amount of heat being generated by the cluster.

With a large cluster in an entirely uninsulated wood hive I have observed that with a small lower opening (1 or two half inch holes through 1 inch lumber) and a large upper opening (1/2 inch by 4 inches) that the upper portion of the hive is quite warm, and the upper entrance is usually full of bees lounging in the warm air rising (slowly) from the cluster.

Another consideration that possibly favors insulating hives is the situation where the cluster is not centrally located, but is pressed against the side or end of the hive. In that case, heat from the cluster is conducted through the hive wall directly. This situation is common, and especially so in narrow hives or with large clusters.

In any event, insulated hives are making somewhat of a comeback, especially among hobby beekeepers.

What I am planning to build is a sandwich construction, an inch of white cedar for the inner box, an inch if EPS foam, and an inch of white cedar for the outer box. This gives me about an R 8, and white cedar being extremely light still has a manageable weight of just under 15 pounds for a 6 frame deep box. For a double back to back 6 frame, the weight would be 22 pounds with a half inch thick center divider, which is still probably manageable.

Because my hives have removable sides the jointery gets pretty complicated, as I have learned that a simple box doesn't work all that well.

I am using 1 inch cedar because I have a lot of it salvaged from a deck I removed. Using 3/4 inch cedar would reduce weight to 11 pounds for a single and 16 pounds for a double.

We will see how it goes.


----------



## Meady Beekeeper (8 d ago)

A Novice said:


> Varroa is a major factor.
> Because of varroa winter losses are much higher and bees are more expensive. It isn't clear insulation improves winter survival, but it is clear that beekeepers are willing to go to significant lengths to improve winter survival. Insulation is one of those things beekeepers try. Small commercial (non migratory) beekeepers in SE Wisconsin still winter in uninsulated Langstroth hives, but have 30% winter losses. Before Varroa, the losses were negligible.
> 
> Whatever the effects of varroa have been, the observation from the 1930's that warm air rises isn't the whole story. If the cluster is in the center of the hive with space all around then it is pretty obvious that the cluster heat plume actually cools the hive by drawing cold air into the hive which is entrained with the rising air from the cluster.
> ...


sounds good. Will you be able to post pics?


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Meady Beekeeper said:


> What brand of poly hive do you use?


I had 12 wooden hives 6FR over 6FR and one 10FR BeeMAX. I combined 6 framers and went into this winter with 2x 10FR BeeMAX, 1x 10FR Paradise and 1x 6FR Paradise.


----------



## Meady Beekeeper (8 d ago)

jtgoral said:


> I had 12 wooden hives 6FR over 6FR and one 10FR BeeMAX. I combined 6 framers and went into this winter with 2x 10FR BeeMAX, 1x 10FR Paradise and 1x 6FR Paradise.


So far are you favouring beemax or paradise? Or is it too soon to make a judgment?


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Meady Beekeeper said:


> So far are you favouring beemax or paradise? Or is it too soon to make a judgment?


You have to be more careful with BeeMAX when using a hive tool. I will go with Paradise in the future if needed.

Paradise has zero bee space at the box top, all bee space is at the bottom. BeeMAX is half/half. 

I bought my Paradise with reversible top covers with no vent holes. I like them.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

While the super insulated colonies (foam) are justified and even necessary for mini-colonies wintering - I am unsure the super-insulation is necessary and beneficial for the regular colonies in our zone 5.

Excessively active wintering is not necessarily good for a hobby-level operator (who has no plans for mid-winter migration or extremely early bee sales).

But here comes the *double-wall* where the *thermal mass* does come into the play.
The thermal mass - this is something that the bees have been adapted to over very long time.

Again, NOT the insulation - it is the surrounding thermal mass of their refuge.

In this sense, I like the double-wall.
Understanding that the mobility will suffer with the double-wall construction, too bad.

Frozen live wood in cold winter conditions presents *very little insulation* - but surely it has plenty of thermal mass.
Somewhere along the way - manufacturers of the foam hives (as well as content generators) completely confused the issue (already confusing as it is). 
Foam hives sell well - to be sure, because they are very convenient and have strong benefits.
The one thing they don't offer - they have negligible thermal mass (but the double-wall construction does offer thermal mass).

Sealed/Insulated hives year round - Opinions? | Page 5 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregB said:


> Frozen live wood in cold winter conditions presents *very little insulation* - but surely it has plenty of thermal mass.


IMO you paint with a broad brush on this Greg.
many hollow trees do not have green wood right to the edge of the cavity, most have some dry punky wood at the center, which is covered with propolis, and does trap some air. Some trees have fairly dry hearts/heart wood, , I cut some big white pine (50 inch base) and the green wood was only 4-6 inches thick the rest was fairly dry (like 1/3 the weight) some trees like white cedar have a somewhat porous wood and heart wood. I would offer that the 3 or 4 inches does have more R value than the 3/4 pine boxes we use.
And as far as frozen, Some hives have snow shoveled against the side or get snowed under, so 3/4 wood and snow seems to work in Vermont. Agree the subnivean zone can help with these but for the most part tree cavities IMO would be warmer, and have less fluctuations. almost always frost on the inside of hives I check in winter, so Ice inside does not seem to be a show stopper.

GG


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> IMO you paint with a broad brush on this Greg.
> many hollow trees do not have green wood right to the edge of the cavity, most have some dry punky wood at the center, which is covered with propolis, and does trap some air. Some trees have fairly dry hearts/heart wood, , I cut some big white pine (50 inch base) and the green wood was only 4-6 inches thick the rest was fairly dry (like 1/3 the weight) some trees like white cedar have a somewhat porous wood and heart wood. I would offer that the 3 or 4 inches does have more R value than the 3/4 pine boxes we use.
> And as far as frozen, Some hives have snow shoveled against the side or get snowed under, so 3/4 wood and snow seems to work in Vermont. Agree the subnivean zone can help with these but for the most part tree cavities IMO would be warmer, and have less fluctuations. almost always frost on the inside of hives I check in winter, so Ice inside does not seem to be a show stopper.
> 
> GG


Well, two points.

1)R 1-3 does (commonly offered by wood in *various combinations*) not come close to R 10-20 - that is now days commonly used in the foam hives.

It is almost coming to the point now - who can slap more R's onto their hives?
Heck, I can easily add R-30 for zero cost - right now on my back porch.
But is it good?

So - using wood - no way you can easily replicate R-20/R-30. Can you?  I have no practical way of doing it.

Wood (especially raw wood!!!) offers *very little insulation* by modern standards.
What is there to argue?
R-3 vs. R-30?


2) "*almost always frost* on the inside of hives I check in winter, so *Ice inside does not seem to be a show stopper*. "
Exactly.
You just supported my statement.

Going crazy about insulation to the point of having NO moisture in the hives due to the bees driving the temp up and RH down - is not a good.

And just to reiterate common knowledge:

small colonies need warmth
large colonies need cooling
You winter small colonies - foam (better for warming).
You winter large colonies - wood (double-wall is great - more even temp and takes away excessive warmth).
Something in between - something in between.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have not seen any installations that claim anywhere near R 30 for the sides of colonies. In any case warmer air can hold more moisture. I probably have close to that on my hives upper surfaces but more like R10 on sides. I just came in from checking one of mine and could see some fine droplets out near the edges of the poly film covering frame tops. 12 C above the poly film. No bees visible; still well down in frames. No top feed.

The high moisture content warm air due to the high R top insulation will start to condense on sides that have _lesser_ insulation even though at a relatively high temperature compared to a non insulated hive.

In other words you do not have to have "cold" surfaces to provide free water: To have condensed moisture you must have moisture available and a surface that is below the dew point of such warm moist air.

The high R Value ensures that the air above the cluster will have high moisture; not the low moisture which you assume.

Edit; taken to the extreme, a very large population of bees, in a grossly over insulated hive, in a very warm outdoor temperature, could result in a condition where bees minimum activity basic metabolic heat might start to exceed hive heat losses and incur temperatures exceeding bees top comfort zone. Above conditions combined with a restricted bottom entrance and no top ventilation could result in them being unable to control adequately by fanning air exchange. This may be a reason for screened bottoms. This would be a highly unlikely situation though, unless you deliberately went to non recommended extremes to create it.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> I have not seen any installations that claim anywhere near R 30 for the sides of colonies.
> ........


Certainly, I exaggerate when comparing R-3 to R-30.
This is *on purpose* and to make the point more obvious - heat flow resistance of wood and foam differ by factor of 5-10.

Just watch the Vino guy (I do watch him - just for the fun of it).
That is the quick example right there.
If not R-30, certainly R-20-ish.

He has 100K subscribers - meaning very next year there will be tons of the copycats (even if not reported).
(1041) I Fixed The Langstroth Hive (Again) - Bee Barn 2.0 REVEAL! - YouTube


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think your heat flow factor of wood vs foam is also an exaggeration. I think 3 to 1 is closer. Some panels claim higher net R value but that is due to reflective coatings and only applies to radiative heat transfer.

I agree that much of Vino Farm's premise is not well supported so should not apply to what GG proposed. Imposing conditions that force the bees into expending energy to optimise internal hive conditions is counter productive. Too much of a good thing is bad!

I have the feeling that there is some attachment to the notion that "colder is better" and some data is being massaged to support it.

I propose that a temperature in the box that is near the comfort level of the individual bee (neither requiring fanning, evaporative cooling, or cluster formation) is the point of least stores consumption. This is supported by recorded data. At such a temperature the bees can access stores across the entire expanse of the comb surface. Taken to the extreme of being tightly clustered and generating survival temperature by muscular action, consumption rises. Consumption rises, while the clusters dimension relative to stores is greatly decreased. Decreased area of access to stores at a time when consumption is high and mobility is greatly reduced. That is the recipe for a dead colony in the midst of plenty of stores. The danger of course increases with smaller clusters but the affective factors are always present.

This scenario seems to approach a "last stand, with the wagons circled". If there is not a break in conditions allowing movement onto new stores bees continue to drop off the cluster and we find a picture of a dead colony with plenty of stores close by. This is providing a worst case scenario to contrast with providing a colony with heat loss conditions resulting in lowered consumption and virtually whole box mobility.

The above ideal condition would cover only small periods during the whole of the "wintering" journey of a colony, so in the real world we have to compromise so that we have the best net condition and avoid the worst case scenarios of the extremes. There is quite a list of all the affective variables that should be considered.

We have to be careful not to paint pictures that support a pre conviction that is not supported comprehensively by physical facts.


----------



## david stern (Dec 13, 2021)

crofter said:


> I think your heat flow factor of wood vs foam is also an exaggeration. I think 3 to 1 is closer. Some panels claim higher net R value but that is due to reflective coatings and only applies to radiative heat transfer.
> 
> I agree that much of Vino Farm's premise is not well supported so should not apply to what GG proposed. Imposing conditions that force the bees into expending energy to optimise internal hive conditions is counter productive. Too much of a good thing is bad!
> 
> ...


I give a like not with any sort of judgment but rather, I really appreciate how well put all the factors were laid out for us.


----------



## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

GregB said:


> Just watch the Vino guy (I do watch him - just for the fun of it).
> That is the quick example right there.
> If not R-30, certainly R-20-ish.
> 
> He has 100K subscribers - meaning very next year there will be tons of the copycats (even if not reported).


Hopefully not in Florida, three inches of foam is a bit much for most of the south. Still see plenty of ideas to steal um *borrow *Long time since I have watched one of his videos, thanks for the link.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Hopefully not in Florida, three inches of foam is a bit much for most of the south. Still see plenty of ideas to steal um *borrow *Long time since I have watched one of his videos, thanks for for the link.


Recommended Home Insulation R–Values shows recommended R values for Florida. 

The science of thermodynamics sees no difference between your home and the home for bees.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Rigid Insulation R-Value Per Inch (+ EPS, XPS, ISO Thickness Charts)


Rigid insulation like rigid foam and foam boards have high R-values. That’s why materials like polyiso (polyisocyanurate), EPS (expanded polystyrene), and XPS (extruded polystyrene) like Styrofoam make for such good insulation materials. We are going to look what is rigid insulation R-value per...




learnmetrics.com


----------



## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

jtgoral said:


> The science of thermodynamics sees no difference between your home and the home for bees.


No disputing wooden hives in the south could benefit from insulation (with some changes in management...) just pointing out almost no one down here does. Can not recall ever seeing a fully insulated wooden hive in person. Rare to see a bit of loose foam on top or some thin wrap. Know there are a few Apimaye style hives around since the tiny bee store near me was selling them. Guess whoever bought them has them well hidden...

Do have insulation built into some of my telescoping covers and plan to build more (some day...) so I'm sold on the idea.


----------



## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

William Bagwell said:


> Hopefully not in Florida, three inches of foam is a bit much for most of the south. Still see plenty of ideas to steal um *borrow *Long time since I have watched one of his videos, thanks for for the link.


I can't watch that guy. I tried...
Serious case of Dunning-Kruger effect.


----------



## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Armchair Hive Design.
Like armchair Science.
Nearly effortless, involves very little math.
A good winter time activity.


----------



## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

A Novice said:


> Armchair Hive Design.
> Like armchair Science.
> Nearly effortless, involves very little math.


And when it does involve a little math, you can always put it off for another day  

Liked Jim's sloped edges on this winter cover that matched the slope on the top of the hive walls. Have thought of the same for wood langs and wonder why no one seems to be doing this? Would be at least somewhat self aligning plus make it more difficult for water to get in. Or just sit in the tiny crack causing rot...
Also like his clear bottoms in his feeder shims. May try that the next time I make up a few, scrounged a large chunk of slightly used clear plastic recently.

Did not like his summer lid at all. Too light and needs to be strapped down, I like a bit heavier plus a brick. Fail to grasp the logic in the hybrid wood front on an otherwise all foam hive. Perhaps he will explain in one of the follow up videos. The foam / wood peg hives in the other thread make sense, the wood gives the screws something strong to hold to and are easy to change if they rot.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> I think your heat flow factor of wood vs foam is also an exaggeration. I think 3 to 1 is closer. .......


crofter, this is a 2 minute double-check - no need to guess.

Consider that the wood in the beehive during the cold season is *never dry* (for the maximum R-value).
There is always the moisture present - which reduces the heat transfer resistance.
XPS, on the other hand, absorbs no moisture - it is, indeed, always dry.

And so - for the dry, soft wood/XPS - we have ~1:5 ratio in *ideal conditions *(including ideal wood - which is never the case).
Anything less than ideal drives this ratio towards ~1:10.
Moisture saturated wood is, outright, terrible (which includes the raw, life wood of the live bee tree situations).










building_manual_ap_1.pdf (ahfc.us)


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> I have the feeling that there is some *attachment to the notion that "colder is better" *and some data is being massaged to support it.


All along I have been advocating for this case - *depicted *(not "colder is better").
T. Seeley. The Lives of Bees. p. 233

This exact situation has been independently reported by the USSR researchers, back in 20th century yet.
Which I also have documentation for (buried somewhere in my PDF document pile).

It is not "colder the better" and not "warmer the better".
It is about the *sweet spot *and trying to stay as close as possible to it.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Ambient has not been defined. You claim it is the temperature inside the box. My searches find that ambient is the temperature of the hive surroundings. No use further discussion as long as that inconsistency exists.


----------



## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Michael Palmer said:


> Double walled hives were popular more than 100 years ago. The way I see it, if they were so much better for northern beekeepers, why don't you see them today?


It is still done, it is the same as keeping bees in a shed or basement during winter.
Ian Steppler
Etienne Tardif
Vino Farms
and many more, especially in the northern European latitudes.

To insulate each individual box would be a financial disaster, the boxes are grouped and share their heat.
I know you use wraps, Michael.

Ian - is a little different as he controls a low temp (I think his target is 3°C), to keep the bees quiet and clustered.

To permanently insulate all gear would add weigh and bulk. But I can see insulating the brood area like Vino Farms


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> *Ambient has not been defined. *You claim it is the temperature inside the box. My searches find that ambient is the temperature of the hive surroundings. No use further discussion as long as that inconsistency exists.


Of course, it has been defined.

Like I said already - listen to Etienne Tardiff.
You like this stuff and so here you go - listen to him then.
I am even re-posting the snapshot of his video - listen yourself and put this away. 
Exact minute/second is on the picture.

(As a matter of fact, this is exactly what T. Seeley says too - do you want the page picture?)


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> crofter, this is a 2 minute double-check - no need to guess.
> 
> Consider that the wood in the beehive during the cold season is *never dry* (for the maximum R-value).
> There is always the moisture present - which reduces the heat transfer resistance.
> ...


R-value for water is 0.46 (https://byjus.com/question-answer/what-is-r-for-water/). Then saturated wood will be something between R-0.46 and R-1.2
7" moist wooden wall around tree hollow still minimum 4.35 times better then 0.75" wooden hive wall.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

OK, here.
Argue with T. Seeley, not me.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Ambient temperature is temperature of the place where the object is located. In our case the object is the bee cluster not the bee hive.

My ambient temperature right now is the temperature of the room where I watch Bears loosing again, not the temperature outside the house.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> R-value for water is 0.46 (https://byjus.com/question-answer/what-is-r-for-water/). Then saturated wood will be something between R-0.46 and R-1.2
> 7" moist wooden wall around tree hollow still minimum 4.35 times better then 0.75" wooden hive wall.


We are comparing the units.
1" of one material to 1" of another material.

And as I stated above already - I have no *practical *way to create R-5/R-10 using wood.
If someone has - then cool.
One way to do it - intergrade the hives into the building walls - those are immovable by default, and you can use whole logs if want. But this is a fringe case.

OK, folks, I am FOR the double-wall construction hands down - where appropriate. 
I don't know what the deal is. 
Just trying to get some facts straight.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> Ambient temperature is temperature of the place where the object is located. In our case the object is the bee cluster not the bee hive.
> 
> My ambient temperature right now is the temperature of the room where I watch Bears loosing again, *not the temperature outside the house.*


Exactly.
This what I have been trying to tell crofter for how long now?


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JustBees said:


> Ian - is a little different as he controls a low temp *(I think his target is 3°C),* to keep the bees quiet and clustered.


Exactly.
But this could be cooler.
The Siberian folks are trying for just about the 0C in their sheds.
This way the actual ambient temperature inside the hives is closer to 4-5C - the optimal for the clusters.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

North of 60 Beekeeping - Winter 2020 Monitoring


Do Bees Heat the Inside of the Hive in Winter? Published in the Winter 2020 BCHPA BeeScene To insulate or not to insulate? Not really a question most beekeepers in Canada have to ask themselves. We do have a few areas in BC, Southern Ontario where the bees will likely do fine without that extra




www.northof60beekeeping.com





I am using Tardifs interpretation of Ambient in relation to his figures. You cannot use one persons interpretation of one parameter to interpret data from another source that is not using a similar interpretation. Ambient is open to interpretation.

My measurements inside my colonies meshes with Tardiffs chart.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> My searches find that ambient is the temperature of the hive surroundings.


This is exactly the case where we should listen to the folks who have some weight (vs. the others).
I made my choices clear.

Here is an example of the guy who is himself confused about his definitions - and yet is considered an authority.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> North of 60 Beekeeping - Winter 2020 Monitoring
> 
> 
> Do Bees Heat the Inside of the Hive in Winter? Published in the Winter 2020 BCHPA BeeScene To insulate or not to insulate? Not really a question most beekeepers in Canada have to ask themselves. We do have a few areas in BC, Southern Ontario where the bees will likely do fine without that extra
> ...


Then we are in agreement!
This is what I have been saying all along - this is my context, always has been.
Unsure where I am equating the outside temperature to the ambient temperature. To me this has been very clear.

Temperatures outside of the dwelling are just that - temperatures outside of the dwelling.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> ..
> 
> And as I stated above already - I have no *practical *way to create R-5/R-10 using wood.
> ..


You buy 2x12 lumber and make a box using 4 layers of this wood to get ~ R-6  Then you spend rest of your money for a crane to lift it and put in place.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregB said:


> Then we are in agreement!
> This is what I have been saying all along - this is my context, always has been.
> Unsure where I am equating the outside temperature to the ambient temperature. To me this has been very clear.
> 
> Temperatures outside of the dwelling are just that - temperatures outside of the dwelling.



No we are not in agreement.

The term ambient is subject to interpretation No problem as long as all data sets in question are all using the same interpretation. In Tardifs charts he refers to *T Ambient minimum, maximum as the outside weather* and *T Box min, max and ave. as the various average interior hive temps. *

His lowest honey consumption was during a week at an outside average temperature of approx 0. C. with the average inside box temperature during that period being approx 20 C.

His highest honey consumption was during a week with an average ambient (outside) temperature of minus 15 C and a corresponding max in box average temperature of roughly 16.5 C.

My observed temperature readings last winter lead me to believe that actual temperatures inside an insulated colony with no top vent in the North are much higher than what you seem to believe is optimum. My bees had no top feed at all and much of the stores untouched. 100% survival. They didnt bake or burn through their stores.

I would like to know what the actual measured average temperatures are inside a shed wintered colony.


----------



## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

The confusion here is due to a misunderstanding of the fact that warm air rises.

The temperature below the cluster with air entering from the bottom will be the same temperature as the outside - the ambient temperature.

There is very little heat conducted downward through the hive, as the combs block radiation and the combs are poor conductors of heat,

You can see this from the isotherms in the picture from Seeley's book.

This is the situation in a hive with a bottom and a top vent, and doesn't much depend on the amount of insulation.

Without a top vent, the situation is quite different.

As you can see, the temperature increases as the cluster is approached from any direction.

As regards getting R5 from wood construction, 3 inches of white cedar will have an R value of about 4.5.

2x4 construction would exceed R5.

However, bees seem to survive in single walled wooden boxes if they are otherwise healthy.

So the economics of double walled hives are not very compelling for people keeping bees to make honey. They are heavier, more expensive, take up more space.


----------



## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

GregB said:


> This is exactly the case where we should listen to the folks who have some weight (vs. the others).
> I made my choices clear.
> 
> Here is an example of the guy who is himself confused about his definitions - and yet is considered an authority.
> ...


The primary difference between a living tree and other wooden or insulated structures is a living tree contains water.

Water goes through a phase change at 0C. It changes from liquid - water to solid - ice.

That change requires 80 calories per gram.

That is a lot of heat. Enough to heat water from freezing - 0C to way to hot to touch 80C, or 176F.

As a result, in any experiment where the temperature fluctuates above and below the freezing point of water, a living tree will maintain its temperature very close to the freezing point of water. So the observation that the temperature inside of the tree - below the cluster, presumably - stayed very close to the freezing point of water is as obvious as the statement that water is wet, or that ice is hard.

After a prolonged period of time either above or below the freezing point of water the effective thermal mass of the wood declines significantly.and the ability of the tree to buffer the temperature declines significantly. If the ambient (outside of the tree) temperature was 20 degrees cooler, the result would be different. However, 13 inches of even frozen wood would make a pretty effective insulator.

The other observation is that the tree in this instance is quite large. Assuming the cavity is 8 inches in diameter, the tree would be 34 inches in diameter. Many bee trees are much smaller, I would think.

(Yes, I know that tree sap freezes at a slightly lower temperature than pure water, but the effect is the same.)


----------



## Nicksotherhoney (Jun 10, 2017)

Buckeye hive! Look it up! Pretty interesting!


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Where is the point of diminishing returns from added R values?

There is a common confusion between heat and temperature. If heat is dissipated as rapidly as it is produced, there will be very little measured temperature increase. Conversely if very high R value severely limits heat dissipation a very small amount of heat energy can result in quite high temperature increase

As this applies to bees:
As Ambient temperature outside a Low R value hive drops, a cluster of bees will have to consume increasingly more stores to produce the necessary heat to maintain a comfort level temperature. Energy consumption is the *highest* at the point where the lowest *outer* cluster temperature occurs and the cluster is at its *smallest* A common misconception is that a lower outer cluster temperature indicates a lower consumption of energy. To deliberately force temperature conditions that result in cluster compaction is not an energy reduction move! Reducing hive volume would be though.

This flies in the face of the measured observation that _the lowest energy demands and food consumption actually occur at an internal hive temperature about the point where the bees just start to compact into a cluster_ to conserve energy. Somewhere just above 20 C

Since the Low R value enclosure will more closely match internal and ambient temperatures, this compaction will occur sooner as ambient temp. drops. Energy consumption increase is proportional to cluster volume decrease. _Common enough is the belief that it is inversely proportional!_

Higher R value enclosure will allow a colony to survive lower maximum temperatures for longer periods, and in general use less food than a bare hive.

Disclaimer: 
The above applies to cold climate conditions. In warmer climates much additional R value above what a bare wood hive provides, could push internal temperatures above a colony's comfort level and to the point where active fanning and regurgitating of body fluids for_ evaporative cooling _would quickly peak energy consumption, quite possibly fatally if water foraging was not available. In that case honey is consumed to provide free water and this produces even more heat! A runaway condition but one you would really have to _work at_, to produce.

Bee numbers relative to enclosure size is a very important factor.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> However, 13 inches of even frozen wood would make a pretty effective insulator.


If you consider concrete a pretty good insulator - then yes.
Frozen raw wood is a good an insulator as concrete - not that great.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> Water goes through a *phase change at 0F.* It changes from liquid - water to solid - ice.
> 
> That change requires 80 calories per gram.


You meant 0C.
Incidentally - this temperature is still pretty close to the optimal winter operating temperature of the bees.











This tendency of the raw wood to really "try hard" to maintain this ~0C temperature for as long as it can (in either direction) - thanks to the unique energy profile of the water - makes the green wood attractive dwelling envelope within certain range.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Nicksotherhoney said:


> Buckeye hive! Look it up! Pretty interesting!



















I made 7 hives with 2 Deep 2 Medium each.
if you have the time and material.....
3x fasteners and 2+ x wood.

GG


----------



## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Actually, this is a lot like rocket science.

A rocket needs fuel and oxidizer, and generates a high velocity hot exhaust.

A cluster needs fuel (Sugar) and oxidizer (air) and generates a relatively low velocity exhaust plume.

The temperature of the exhaust plume needs to be at least 45F(7C) which is the minimum temperature of the outside of the cluster (roughly).

The exhaust plume (unlike a rocket) is driven by bouyancy forces due to the warmer air being less dense than the cooler AMBIENT air, not by pressure resulting from the combustion process as in a rocket motor.

The amount of fuel consumed is proportional to the amount of air entering and leaving the hive. which is proportional to the difference between AMBIENT temperature and the temperature of the outside of the cluster, the height of the exhaust plume above the cluster to the top vent, and the cross-sectional area of any flow limiting restriction, such as an upper or lower entrance. In a given hive, you will see that fuel consumption rises linearly as temperature falls, since the primary variable is the difference between ambient temperature and cluster temperature, and as this difference increases, the buoyancy force and plume velocity increase. Two secondary variables are compaction of the cluster, which reduces the cross-sectional area of the exhaust plume, and the orifice effect of any inlet or outlet restrictions. Flow through an orifice is proportional to the square root of pressure across the orifice.

Looking at the curve from the book in an earlier post below for reference, the experiments were run in a temperature-controlled chamber - no mention of an inlet or outlet restriction, so we can assume the orifice effect is not significant. The curve does not appear to have been drawn based on any sort of curve fit to the data - not an RMS best fit or anything like that - it seems more of a speculative curve drawn through rather scattered data points.

While the minimum metabolic rate data plotted is somewhat helpful, an average metabolic rate over a 24-hour period would be much more useful and would likely exhibit less scatter. There is a factor of about 7 between the maximum and minimum values plotted at 13C for different "runs". 13C is either by far the best temperature or nearly the worst, depending on which data point you believe is representative. It is hard to draw conclusions from data like that. It is also noteworthy that the temperature ranges where the greatest variability is seen are those where the most data points were gathered. Experimental science is much harder than armchair science.

I suppose the experimental setup is detailed in the pages of the book. Is this an open top - open bottom setup, or are there flow restrictions?










Side note - this discussion is helpful. I am coming around to an idea of how a hive should be designed for cold weather, which is significant insulation and a properly sized or adaptable upper flow restriction to assure enough but not too much airflow through the hive.

Sadly, figuring out exactly what that means in dimensional terms will require real science. Not sure I am up for that...

ADDENDUM: On the other hand, I could just build something and try it to see if it kills my bees. If it doesn't I can conclude it is the ideal setup and start my own Utube channel - sell plans and etc.

In fact, why wait. I think it will work! People need good hive designs! Look for my Utube channel beginning in March of this year...

WYSIATI

Jon


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Jon; a reactive infinitely variable upper vent would possibly be an interesting way of regulating optimum colony conditions. Being that control of relative humidity is a factor as well as temperature, it might take a bit of doing, but it does seem rather key to the issue of winter survival. 

Dont allow too many fingers access to the knobs while you are tuning the optimum set points.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

A Novice said:


> Actually, this is a lot like rocket science.
> 
> A rocket needs fuel and oxidizer, and generates a high velocity hot exhaust.
> 
> ...


The bees are a HVAC in the hive. They set their internal thermostat for the temperature they need and do what they can to reach the goal. Evaporate the water to cool the hive down in summer or convert sugars into the heat energy to rise the temperature when outside is colder then inside temperature they want/need.

The level of insulation and ventilation does help or does not to reach their goal. The more insulation the less effort to keep the temperature the bees need or want. Like in my house. The better it is insulated the lower is my bill for gas in winter and for electricity in summer. There is a reason why we do not open in winter windows in upper floor and all doors between those windows and opened front or mudroom door.

Unless we keep above in mind, IMO, the discussion is useless.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> I suppose the experimental setup is detailed in the pages of the book. Is this an open top - open bottom setup, or are there flow restrictions?


Source of the picture.
For details - look there.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is an independent source (Es'kov, 1978) that corroborates existence of the same "sweet spot" above:


wintering Russian black bees consume the least amount of oxygen at ambient temperatures of 5-9C (solid line on the chart)
wintering Grey Caucasians (aka Georgian) bees consume the least amount of oxygen at ambient temperatures 4-6C
the differences between the bee races are most likely related to their local wintering adaptations

The least amount of oxygen consumed by the bees indicates the most comfortable wintering temperature conditions - where they can afford to be the least active.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have no problem believing this. Ambient temperature being the temperature of the hive surroundings. Internal hive temperatures at such an ambient temperatures will be higher.

I take my information from a source that makes it clear what ambient refers to. Above does not.

We are at an impasse as far as I am concerned.


----------



## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

So all we need to do is control Ambient temperature.

That would possibly also end Global Warming, and would certainly put an end to climate change.

BTW Frank, I share your frustration regarding imprecise terminology. That bees are in a happy cluster at 5C outside temperature and don't have to work very hard to keep the cluster warm seems pretty easy to believe.

The purpose of bees clustering is to keep warm. It makes sense that the highest temperature they cluster at (outside temperature) is the temperature where this would be the least work.

So the question is, "do bees begin to cluster at a lower outside temperature if the hive is insulated?"

If they do, that shifts the entire (somewhat speculative) curve to the left. Same curve but at lower temperatures. Good in cold climates, not so good in middling warm climates.

Fact is we have just enough information to have opinions, but not enough to know if they are right.


----------



## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

crofter said:


> Jon; a reactive infinitely variable upper vent would possibly be an interesting way of regulating optimum colony conditions. Being that control of relative humidity is a factor as well as temperature, it might take a bit of doing, but it does seem rather key to the issue of winter survival.
> 
> Dont allow too many fingers access to the knobs while you are tuning the optimum set points.


It is an interesting idea.
Regulate ventilation to maintain a constant airflow through the hive (probably) which in a well insulated hive should maintain a relatively constant internal hive temperature.

Relatively easy to do, but would like a power source.

You could have problems with condensation freezing and buggering up the works.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Greg: Here is just a couple of snips of the articles including one by the author you quote that shows a different intent to "Ambient".

The figures and charts you refer to appear to indicate outside temperatures are being quoted but you are considering them to be inside hive temperatures. Your figures are correct but I think you have assumed an incorrect inference due to the confusion of the intended meaning of the word "ambient". This may be behind why we are butting heads.

In my search for usages of this word, in beekeeping context, I* did* find several sources that did give it the meaning you have assumed. The great majority however do not. Seeley does not either if you did deeper. Have a look back over my figures and your own, assuming the same meaning of the word and I think you will see that Tardiff's work is not in error.

It does give a different picture of inside hive temperatures relating to most efficient internal hive temperatures though, than what you believe to be the case.

Figure 5
*(a)* The warm stale air fanned out from the hive will be replaced/exchanged with cooler fresh air from the external ambient that will enter passively into the hive where fanning bees are absent (*Peters et al., 2019*); *(b)* an example of a window fan system. Image taken from (*Hubbard, 2019*).

Apis mellifera – Apis, which is Latin for ‘bee’, and mellifera, which is Latin for ‘honey-bearing’ – refers to Western or European honeybees. Research shows that regardless of the ambient temperature, the in-hive microclimate of a beehive at the central brood area must be kept at the average optimum temperature of 32 °C–36 °C for the colony to survive (*Seeley T.D. and B., 1981*).

An another:
Goller
and
Esch (1990a)
have shown
the ambient
temperature at which this 'chill-coma' occurs
(Tee)
to be species-specific. For Apis
mellifera,
at ambient temperatures between 8-12°C, metabolic increases cannot
maintain internal temperature
and
a worker bee succumbs to chill-coma (Free
and Spencer-Booth 1960, Goller
and
Esch 1990a). In this state, endogenous heat
production capability is lost; a honey bee becomes immobilized
and
is unable to
revive itself.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

A Novice said:


> It is an interesting idea.
> Regulate ventilation to maintain a constant airflow through the hive (probably) which in a well insulated hive should maintain a relatively constant internal hive temperature.
> 
> Relatively easy to do, but would like a power source.
> ...


I think it would be interesting; It might be more workable to separate control of the two parameters but merely regulating throughflow of air *would *control temperature. I hear you about frost etc. gumming the works. I once made an egg incubator that worked on a damper but chicken fluff gummed it up..... back to plan bee. I think it really is true that any given amount of insulation will not be optimum for all conditions. If optimum conditiions could easily be obtained I think it could cut down on needed winter stores and would have to give better survivability. There are lots more ill conceived notions being sold to beekeepers.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> Here is an independent source (Es'kov, 1978) that corroborates existence of the same "sweet spot" above:
> 
> 
> wintering Russian black bees consume the least amount of oxygen at ambient temperatures of 5-9C (solid line on the chart)
> ...


Why did we switch to consuming *oxygen*? What did I miss?


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jtgoral said:


> Why did we switch to consuming *oxygen*? What did I miss?


 Jack, I did read somewhere that as the bees descend into thermal coma that there oxygen utilization does plunge. However I belive that at that point they require external warming as they are no longer producing heat.
I think you are right about it having nothing to do with lowest stores consumption. Definitely not good news. Our oxygen consumption would go down too as we go hypthermic but that does not indicate happy campers does it?


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

A Novice said:


> It is an interesting idea.
> Regulate ventilation to maintain a constant airflow through the hive (probably) which in a well insulated hive should maintain a relatively constant internal hive temperature.
> 
> Relatively easy to do, but would like a power source.
> ...


I guess if I were to try this it would be a custom top box/quilt box.
solar collector lid , battery inside and a louver above the insulation, where we now have the hole with screen.
the heat would need to go thru the propolized cloth, but moisture hopefully would be some what retarded.

IMO a bee shed would be cheaper at some hive count 30 or so.
1 or 2 custom lid/box less cost.

GG


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If you really want to make your head ache see if you can get it around this piece of work. It is a masters thesis on bees thermoregulation. It shows that the minimum food consumption occurs at an even higher temperature than we have been kicking around. Oxygen consumption follows thermo regulation efforts so it increases as temperature drops but only down to a certain point. When an idividual bees body temperature dips into the chill coma range, oxygen consumption drops sharply and it is no longer able to thermoregulate. I guess this is when it has to move towards centre of cluster. The drop in oxygen consumption sure is not a sign of a desirable situation. .



https://soar.suny.edu/bitstream/handle/20.500.12648/4557/bio_theses/79/fulltext%20%281%29.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

I went the simple route:

probably took care of mites
fed for winter
insulated hives better on top then on sides
closed any top air leaks and opened screened bottom board

The rest is up to my bees. I hope they know what to do. I am pretty sure they will have enough free oxygen all year around and because it is free then can use as much as they want.


----------



## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

crofter said:


> If you really want to make your head ache see if you can get it around this piece of work. It is a masters thesis on bees thermoregulation. It shows that the minimum food consumption occurs at an even higher temperature than we have been kicking around. Oxygen consumption follows thermo regulation efforts so it increases as temperature drops but only down to a certain point. When an idividual bees body temperature dips into the chill coma range, oxygen consumption drops sharply and it is no longer able to thermoregulate. I guess this is when it has to move towards centre of cluster. The drop in oxygen consumption sure is not a sign of a desirable situation. .
> 
> 
> 
> https://soar.suny.edu/bitstream/handle/20.500.12648/4557/bio_theses/79/fulltext%20%281%29.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


Interesting. The young lady who wrote this has no future in research. You can understand what she writes, and it is pretty straightforward. The actual body temperature of a bee within the range where it can thermoregulate is a bit of a different thing than the air temperature in a hive where bees are thermoregulating as a cluster.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

A Novice said:


> Interesting. The young lady who wrote this has no future in research. You can understand what she writes, and it is pretty straightforward. The actual body temperature of a bee within the range where it can thermoregulate is a bit of a different thing than the air temperature in a hive where bees are thermoregulating as a cluster.


I think this individual vs group effect was mentioned. Certainly if the entire cluster simultaneously went into cold coma and lost thermoregulation at 12 C. a whole different scenario would ensue. Rotation outside to inner modifies this. Still the aggregate temperature where thermoregulation commences is much higher than what is commonly believed.

It is not practical to attempt achievement of the ideal but it is good to be aware of where the center of optimum lies and guess where it may be in your particular surroundings.

Edit; The makings of a worthy masters thesis is a tremendous undertaking. I was amazed at how much detail went into controls and documentation.
My grandaughter is working on her masters in soil science and sustainable food production. Seems like a good area to be heading into.


----------



## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

crofter said:


> I think this individual vs group effect was mentioned. Certainly if the entire cluster simultaneously went into cold coma and lost thermoregulation at 12 C. a whole different scenario would ensue. Rotation outside to inner modifies this. Still the aggregate temperature where thermoregulation commences is much higher than what is commonly believed.
> 
> It is not practical to attempt achievement of the ideal but it is good to be aware of where the center of optimum lies and guess where it may be in your particular surroundings.
> 
> ...


True enough that the individual bee temperature vs the AMBIENT or cluster temperature is discussed in the Thesis.

Just want to be extra clear, as there has been some discussion regarding definition of terms lately.

An MS can be quite a lot of work. In this case, I suspect the purpose of writing such a detailed report is to provide the bulk of the text of a journal article, which will be coauthored with her major professor. This is a nice Thesis. 

Sustainable food production is the next big thing.


----------



## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

jtgoral said:


> Why did we switch to consuming *oxygen*? What did I miss?


Food usage is proportional to oxygen consumption based on C6H12O6 + 6 O2 = 6 CO2 + 6 H2O + heat released

Or "Sugar and Oxygen is metabolized to Carbon Dioxide and Water (which releases heat when reacted)"

So you could measure any one of these things before and after to see how much sugar is being metabolized.

However, measuring the Oxygen content of air and volume of air is apparently easier than the alternatives.

Conversion to heat released, CO2 produced, or sugar consumed it pretty straightforward, as they are all proportional to O2 consumed.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

A Novice said:


> Food usage is proportional to oxygen consumption based on C6H12O6 + 6 O2 = 6 CO2 + 6 H2O + heat released
> 
> Or "Sugar and Oxygen is metabolized to Carbon Dioxide and Water (which releases heat when reacted)"
> 
> ...


so how do you calculate the exchange of air and O2 being replaced buy air exchange.
obviously the Hive is not completely sealed.

GG


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

A Novice said:


> ...
> 
> However, measuring the Oxygen content of air and volume of air is apparently *easier *than the alternatives.
> 
> ...


Good luck with that 

To measure consumed honey/sugar I need to subtract two weights of the hive taken at different time.

I use a simple luggage scale. I lift one side of the hive using the scale by couple millimeters and multiply the weight by 2 (center of gravity is in the middle between support points).

The luggage scale can be bought at Amazon for $10.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> Food usage is proportional to oxygen consumption based on C6H12O6 + 6 O2 = 6 CO2 + 6 H2O + heat released..................


Exactly.
These two different approaches can be used to measure and describe the same process.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Greg: Here is just a couple of snips of the articles including one by the author you quote that shows a different intent to "Ambient".


I am moving off this.

I thought we clarified and agreed - to be using E. Tardiff as the common denominator.
I even posted twice snippets of his video - his version of what "ambient" means - it works for me.

And now we disagree again?

I am confused and just moving off this subject (not critically important to me, anyhow).


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

In the paper I linked to the experiment is done on apparatus that encloses a very few bees. I went over it pretty quick so this info is iffy.

I believe it was not done on whole hive or the issues mention by GG and JTG would indeed be problematic. Food consumption was not exactly linear with O2 but is relative. The O2 can be measured in real time, the food consumption not so easily. The main thing I took from it was how high the temperature is where the lowest consumption occurs.


----------



## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

crofter said:


> If you really want to make your head ache see if you can get it around this piece of work. It is a masters thesis on bees thermoregulation. It shows that the minimum food consumption occurs at an even higher temperature than we have been kicking around. Oxygen consumption follows thermo regulation efforts so it increases as temperature drops but only down to a certain point. When an idividual bees body temperature dips into the chill coma range, oxygen consumption drops sharply and it is no longer able to thermoregulate. I guess this is when it has to move towards centre of cluster. The drop in oxygen consumption sure is not a sign of a desirable situation. .
> 
> 
> 
> https://soar.suny.edu/bitstream/handle/20.500.12648/4557/bio_theses/79/fulltext%20%281%29.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


So the bees in the center of the cluster are not stressed, just hangin' out, enjoying the warmth.
As you move out from the center, the bees are progressively cooler, and consuming more food, and generating more heat, in a roughly linear fashion,
UNTIL you get near the outside of the cluster, where the bees are too cold to thermoregulate, and hanging on, but barely.

All of which assumes that the bees in cluster act like bees individually in syringes.

Measuring metabolic output of bees in cluster would be extremely difficult.

So that is probably the best we can do.


Gray Goose said:


> so how do you calculate the exchange of air and O2 being replaced buy air exchange.
> obviously the Hive is not completely sealed.
> 
> GG


You need to route all the air through your sensors.

So for a test you would build a box with an air inlet and an air outlet, with no leaks.

Then measure the volume and composition of the air.

Not something yeu can do with a normal hive.


----------



## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

jtgoral said:


> Good luck with that
> 
> To measure consumed honey/sugar I need to subtract two weights of the hive taken at different time.
> 
> ...


That will work if your measurements are spaced far apart.

If you want to measure food consumed in the last hour, your method has neither the accuracy nor the precision to be useful.

BTW, thecenter of gravity isn't usually in the middle, and moves as the bees consume stores.

So the luggage scale is close enough to know if you need to feed. That's about it.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

A Novice said:


> ...
> 
> BTW, thecenter of gravity isn't usually in the middle, and moves as the bees consume stores.
> 
> ...


Then you make the same from the opposite side and do the average....


----------



## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

jtgoral said:


> Then you make the same from the opposite side and do the average....


I did that one winter. Using a good quality scale (Chatillion) I found my measurements were repeatable within about 1 pound. That is acceptable if measuring once weekly or there abouts. By making the measurement 3 times and averaging it was accurate enough. However, totally unsuited to measuring the small hour by hour changes needed to determine food consumption as related to temperature. It also is subject to confounding with water loss.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Probably discussions like this do not often occur on popular bee forums. More common is the hurling back and forth of different "truisms" that dont lend themselves to being easily substantiated in strict physical terms. It is not easy to remove the convictions and results from the extreme ends of the "possible" range. That chill coma effect and the variable ability of bees to recover from it could be quite a study in itself.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

To me the chill comma can be good for a very cold snap , the bees "live" thru it.
In some time increment, the bees need to move up into new food, and would need mobility.
Are there any documents about the whole cluster moving in the chill comma mode?
I guess the warm bees could migrate up but the cold ones cannot move so not sure how that would work.
The nice 40 degree (F) day or 2 would help with this, if / when it happens.
to me the insulation would reduce the number of days the cluster needs to be in the chill coma mode.
and sure in Texas those days are much smaller in number than north Montana or Canada.

So at the edges if insulation works then use it.
I have never had an "over heated" hive from insulation. mid michigan area.
I am looking at the insulation to get more smaller units thru winter, basically queen count VRS frames of bees count

GG


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> To me the chill comma can be good for a very cold snap , the bees "live" thru it.
> In some time increment, the bees need to move up into new food, and would need mobility.
> Are there any documents about the whole cluster moving in the chill comma mode?
> I guess the warm bees could migrate up but the cold ones cannot move so not sure how that would work.
> ...



My understanding is that it cannot be colony wide. There is some discussion of this in the article linked. Tardif has noted temperature excursions that occur, perhaps to move camp. As long as the bees have available stores, and are not already at full throttle, they can deliberately increase heat output.
I tried to visualize a mechanism that would result in chill coma immobilized bees being moved to inside the cluster to be "reactivated". Dont know whether this is a last ditch survival "hail mary" or something that is commonly utilized.

I have not peered into my colonies at extreme cold temperatures but they have much more ability to move than a colony forced into tight cluster as a matter of course.

I am sure that in small colonies the R value is much more critical. I think a fairly economical heat source with good insulation could be contrived a lot cheaper than with a building. Being that they are producing their own heat, really for most part, all you would need do is keep it from escaping!


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> My understanding is that it cannot be colony wide. There is some discussion of this in the article linked. Tardif has noted temperature excursions that occur, perhaps to move camp. As long as the bees have available stores, and are not already at full throttle, they can deliberately increase heat output.


right the center is warm ish the outside shell is what is chill non mobile
My grand pa said they fall off if 10f or colder (in hive) after about 10 days, perhaps still in topore, but not revived,, eventually dead.



crofter said:


> I have not peered into my colonies at extreme cold temperatures but they have much more ability to move than a colony forced into tight cluster as a matter of course.


If they cannot move the perish, IMO 



crofter said:


> I tried to visualize a mechanism that would result in chill coma immobilized bees being moved to inside the cluster to be "reactivated". Dont know whether this is a last ditch survival "hail mary" or something that is commonly utilized.


I understood either the warm bees come out and cover the cold ones, cycling them to the inside for warm up and feed.
OR the inside goes into extra heat mode warming the cluster then they move up.

GG


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> right the center is warm ish the outside shell is what is chill non mobile
> My grand pa said they fall off if 10f or colder (in hive) after about 10 days, perhaps still in topore, but not revived,, eventually dead.
> 
> 
> ...


I am sure I have seen a depiction of the cluster with arrows indicating movement patterns. It would be interesting to know the turn over period.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> I am sure I have seen a depiction of the cluster with arrows indicating movement patterns. It would be interesting to know the turn over period.


right
in a "shed" one could apply heat if the cold snap is going to be weeks.
Salamander, old wood stove, etc.

GG


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here I just posted the live case of double-walled, stationary vertical Dadants.
To each his own. 
Dadant Hive: insulated stationary vertical 2-tier hive | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


----------

