# A queen-raising idea



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I do this some when I'm not rushed and just raising twenty or forty for increases in my personal yards. I can't say that there is any difference between the queens made larvae that the bees chose, and those made from larvae that I chose, but if you have the time for it, it doesn't never hurts to go a little further in the quest for quality... after about 6 hours, your Sunkists will have already started selecting their choice larvae and will be adding milk and working on the cell walls... the trick is to use fresh comb for your donor frame... if the comb is older and tougher, they will try to float the larvae out of the cell, which breaks the nutrition cycle which is what makes the difference between emergency queens and grafted queens... so soft, shallow comb and the sooner the better. Good luck!


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Russell,
That's very much how I was planning to do it, tomorrow morning I will place a foundationless frame in my selected Mother Queen colony, then watch for eggs. After the eggs are more than two days old, I plan to move them into the queen cell builder, wait until they're due to hatch, then move those adopted by the bees into their own queen cell cups. I might even leave the comb in there and crop any additional cells started to just those along the bottom edge and suitably spaced out. Grafting is challenging, fun, productive, and rewarding, but it's always more interesting to switch things up a little bit, especially to see how different techniques work for me.

BTW, if anyone had already tried this, I was sure it would be you Russell. Thanks for the tips.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Just a thought offered for the purpose of others commenting on it.
I realize that the use of 2 day old larva is something of the norm in rearing queens. or it appears that way by reading comments posted here.

I also realize that younger larva are not used do to them being to delicate to manipulated before the age of 2 days and that older larva will not develop into queens, or at least adequate queens.

My concern is if there is such a large difference in the result from a larva 2 days old and one that is 3 days old. I find it hard to think that there is not a huge difference in a larva 2 days old and one that is just hatched.

Is it possible that a queen reared from a 2 day old larva is only marginally adequate at best. Basically capable of preforming her duties to the satisfaction of most but not to the full potential of a naturally reared queen?

I have seen information that claims that there are better and worse quality queens in this order from worst to best.

Queens reared under the emergency impulse.
Queens reared under the absconding impulse.
Queens reared under the swarm impulse.

The above are not my claims they are claims made by some of the authors of beekeeping books.

I have made posts repeating the claims of these same authors several times only to be criticized that I cannot know anything because I do not have bees. IT is not my intelligence that is being reported as useless. Then I will read the next post that claims the very authors of those words are the ones to be revered and studied.

So which is it? are the ideas of those like Doolittle, Smith, Alley and others worthless uneducated, experienced drivel? or are they the masters? although they are claimed to be both by the members of this group, both cannot possibly be true. Most of my posts have been thir words. yet time and again my posts are commented on lacking knowledge.

My final question is. If the education that can be gained from the likes of the above is worthless. where do then get an education.

I have offered for those that claim my posts to lack knowledge to point out where those posts where wrong. I was genuinely interested in it being revealed where these masters had been wrong. But no explanation was offered. the claim that my comments where wrong was not supported. At this poitn I am not compeltely sure the information from reading such books as Better Queens, Queen Rearing Simplified, The Science of Queen Rearing, and several others has been worthwhile. When I repeat the information contained in them I am told by the keepers of this group that I am basically an idiot. I suspect that few had any idea they where criticizing the knowledge of the great icons of this craft. that is not important. The truth is the knowledge has been presented in a way it was not recognized as the words of the greats and claimed to be useless. so which is it?

The issue for me is that I do not intend to waste my time gathering useless information and methods that produce second rate results. The very information this group woudl direct a person to they then claim is useless when it is posted on these forums. TI seems to me there may very well be an insiders effect in play here. There is a lot of money in bees. there is a lot of motivation to keep true knowledge from those seeking to get into the inner circle. my concerns are actually genuine. I se it very possible that the bee keeping community woudl very likely teach and promote second rate queen rearing techniques in order to maintain a very lucrative industry of selling queens. Not an accusation, but a thought that leads me to think that it could very well be possible.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

I wouldn't say absconding impulse but rather supercedure, When bees abscond they all leave leaving an empty hive.


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

Daniel Y

Very interesting and valid points.

Be prepared for being ridiculed, accused of "conspiracy" theories etc. for your challenging and unorthodox thoughts and ideas deleting of your post included.

I admire people like you who have the guts to go against the grain and not putting up with: "It was always done that way" mantra.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Daniel Y,
I believe your analysis of some literature concerning queen rearing to be accurate (especially if you change absconding to supersedure). But despite the best intentions of some very experienced and knowledgeable queen breeders, it is very difficult, or impossible, to define absolutes when dealing with living beings, be they plant or animal - especially when their environment isn't being meticulously controlled in a laboratory setting. For example, it had been long established that only fertilized eggs were diploid and could produce female honey bees -- then it was discovered that thelytoky was also possible - oops.

Though I may be mistaken, I believe that honey bees raising emergency queens do not choose larva that are too old, but that other circumstances may prevent the chosen larva from receiving appropriate and sufficient nourishment. As R. Russell has said having emergency queen cells formed of older, more hardened comb can create circumstances that might retard their optimum development, while newer comb can alleviate those circumstances.

I personally like to choose larva, when I graft, that are, at most, a few hours from hatching. I do believe that this has the most positive impact on the queens that develop from these grafted larva. Of course many factors are involved in the development of queens, it is a fast and furious process, with many tiny details all needing to work together flawlessly to produce the most optimum queens. Fortunately for we humans, the bees are the penultimate experts when it comes to raising their replacement matriarch.


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## Terry T (Jun 22, 2011)

Daniel Y 

I think they were talking about 2 day old eggs and not the larva being 2 days old. Having said that I also have to agree with you about conflicting information or what seems conflicting to me. I have read statements by the experts that say the larva needs to be just a few hours old for grafting the best queens and others saying the larva needs to be anywhere from 24 to 36 hours old for the best queens. I think it a lot like they say about asking a question in a room with 10 beekeepers and getting 12 different answers!! As the older fella that mentored me when I was first starting out with bees said to me after I had just asked him about a dozen questions and stating that the books say this and the books say that,he raised his head and said Terry the books and EVERYTHING I tell You are just guidelines. You have to try the different methods and decide for yourself what works best for YOU! He then said books are good but you need to get your head out of the books and into the hive, you will learn far more from the bees! truer words were never spoken,although despite what he said about his words just being guidelines I learned so much from him and saved myself countless mistakes. Thanks Ian!! I guess what I am saying Daniel is this. Listen to the experts and take their advice but try the different things yourself [your own ideas included] and use what works best for you.
On another note I would like to know if anyone on here has tried the cell punch method for raising queens? I am very excited about learning how to raise a few queens for myself and looking at the different methods of doing it. I don't think I can do the grafting--hands to shaky,although I have never tried it. The way I have raised them in the past was to just make up a 5 frame nuc with brood of all stages and let the bees raise their own queens. I have read and been told this is not a good way to do it because they are emergency queens. I have to say that some of my best queens came from this method. Yes I have had duds, but I have had those from suppliers as well. I have had far more of them turn out to be good queens than duds.


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

... "On another note I would like to know if anyone on here has tried the cell punch method for raising queens? I am very excited about learning how to raise a few queens for myself and looking at the different methods of doing it. I don't think I can do the grafting--hands to shaky,although I have never tried it. good queens than duds...."

Are you familiar with this method?

http://infoark.org/InfoArk/Sustainability/Mother Earth News/80/MEN_CD/mendemo/dcd/087/087-050-01.htm

Scroll down to: PLUGGING... A GOOD CAUSE

I wish they included more details (pictures) on the special nuc Mr Vern built.


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## Terry T (Jun 22, 2011)

Pascopol
Yes that is the method I was talking about although I hadn't seen this website. Thanks for the link. A fellow from the local bee club gave a short demonstration of this method using small discs cut form an old broom handle to attache the cell to and then attached the disc to the bar. I don't know why he took the extra step of using the disc,seems unnecessary to me? I agree---wish they gave a little more info about the nuc that he uses. I tried the notching method mentioned in ABJ this past season. I notched 8 cells from an egg and everything in between what I thought was possibly 2 day old larva. When I checked these cells a week later they had consumed -killed? the eggs/larva that were in them and totally rebuilt the cells. Total failure!!! I can handle the failure just hate it when I don't know why something failed. I will keep trying until I find something I can make work for me.


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

Terry T
I am glad you found the link helpful, here is another one pertaining to cell punch method:

http://www.freemanbeetletrap.com/queen_rearing

These people advertise in ABJ, their Australian Cell Punch Tool will set you back about 25 bucks with shipping, there is not much detailed info about cell transfer, they want you to buy their book or their kit.

Seems to me that the copper pipe punch tool MAY work as well or better since from what I know about physics 6" lenght of copper pipe has much more heat retention and capacity than tiny Australian cell punch tool, meaning you can adjust, retain and apply proper heat amount much better with copper pipe, this lenght of pipe acts as a heat storage, it is going to hold wax melting temp point much longer without rapid cool down or burning the larvae if adjusted properly.

I am interested in this method as well hope we will share any practical experiences  coming along the way.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Daniel Y, please read some of my posts, I have never suggested anyone select anything other than the absolute youngest larvae... I have been traveling without my laptop for a while, so I haven't been able to post recently and have no idea what ridicule you are referring to, but I am just not seeing anything a long those lines in any of this thread... knowing most of the heavy posters here, I assume that people may have been pointing out little things that you are lacking by gaining a written knowledge as opposed to an experienced knowledge... don't let it discourage you, use it to drive yourself to earn more knowledge from doing... bee keeping is 100% location dependant... what works well in one place, timing, forage type, etc, may never work at all in a different situation... so while the written knowledge gives you something to start with, the experienced knowledge will make the difference between success and failure... 

You stated that you feel like the breeders may be intentionally teaching poor methods to keep some control over sales... please read my posts, you will find the exact opposite to be true... I strive to make everyone see that there is no real "competition" in this industry... we can help each other to better our industry, or we can pretend that this is a board game and back-bite until we ruin the industry completely... as for bee suppliers, they will never be able to produce more than they can sell so long as they make their products available... that's just the way it is... no need to compete, plenty of need to share knowledge... hope this helps.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

There are plenty of folks who will swear that the best quality queens come from eggs that have not yet hatched and others who will tell you that good queens can come from larvae up to 36 hours old. I would suggest reading Laidlaw and Eckert's excellent book which gives detail on experiments to see the effect as older larvae were grafted into queen cells. To make a long story short, larvae should be 12 hours or less old to produce the finest queens. Even then, attention to detail is required.

The bees to start the queen cells MUST be queenless for 24 hours before giving them eggs or larvae to start. At the same time you make the cell starter queenless, give them a prepared cellbar so they can polish the cells before you graft. From reading one response on this thread, these preparations were not done.

It takes roughly 2000 bees OF THE RIGHT AGE to produce a single high quality queen. If you want to start 30 queen cells, you need 60,000 bees in the cell builder for the very best results. Please note that if the bees are already under the swarming impulse, you don't need as many, but if you are using either supersedure or emergency replacement impulse to rear queens, you need the quantity of bees. The good part is that you can use a single cell starter to start 30 cells today and 30 more cells the next day and 30 more cells the day after that. Just get the rest of the management steps correct to go with this. This is the most critical failure point that some commercial queen breeders skimp on. 24 hours after the cells are started, transfer them to cell finisher colonies or if you are using the Cloake method, do the appropriate steps to prepare for further grafting as per the schedule.

Get a copy of Steve Taber's Breeding Super Bees and read it carefully. The rest of the job is all about quality every step of the way. 

DarJones


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Dar, I think you may have missed who the op is, or at least have not read his methods... his starter is queenless indefinitely, boosted continuously with emerging brood, moved periodically to limit the remove a portion of older bees, and he is ALL about quality... he doesn't used a finisher method like most of us do, but plays on the swarm and emergency impulse combined just like I do in order to produce excellent cells and queens... all he is doing here is letting the bees pick which larvae before he transfers so he can see if he notices any differences in quality...


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Yes, RRussell I read the OP's statements. I was addressing some of the subsequent replies that implied issues with queen quality. I should have made that clear.

DarJones


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Sorry, trying to catch up after a long trip... I must have missed them. I apologise.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Emergency queens CAN be poor quality. The causes would be if the hive is not strong, it's not a time of year where resources are available and there is no new comb and they bees can't tear down the walls. Several of the people who are noted for saying emergency queens are of less quality later changed their mind on the matter:

"It has been stated by a number of beekeepers who should know better (including myself) that the bees are in such a hurry to rear a queen that they choose larvae too old for best results. later observation has shown the fallacy of this statement and has convinced me that bees do the very best that can be done under existing circumstances. 

"The inferior queens caused by using the emergency method is because the bees cannot tear down the tough cells in the old combs lined with cocoons. The result is that the bees fill the worker cells with bee milk floating the larvae out the opening of the cells, then they build a little queen cell pointing downward. The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."--Jay Smith, Better Queens

"I want new comb for brood, as cells can be worked over out of that, better than from old and tough. New comb must be carefully handled. If none but old comb is to be had, cut the cells down to one fourth inch in depth. The knife must be sharp to leave it smooth and not tear it."--Moses Quinby 

"If it were true, as formerly believed, that queenless bees are in such haste to rear a queen that they will select a larva too old for the purpose, then it would hardly do to wait even nine days. A queen is matured in fifteen days from the time the egg is laid, and is fed throughout her larval lifetime on the same food that is given to a worker-larva during the first three days of its larval existence. So a worker-larva more than three days old, or more than six days from the laying of the egg would be too old for a good queen. If, now, the bees should select a larva more than three days old, the queen would emerge in less than nine days. I think no one has ever known this to occur. Bees do not prefer too old larvae. As a matter of fact bees do not use such poor judgment as to select larvae too old when larvae sufficiently young are present, as I have proven by direct experiment and many observations."--Fifty Years Among the Bees, C.C. Miller 

In my experience emergency queens can be every bit as good as other methods IF the hive is really strong and there is either new comb or you tear down the walls of some cells that are the right age larvae so they can build the cell down from there instead of having to float the larvae out of the cell.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

This morning the donor hive had grown a nice piece of new comb in the foundationless frame and sometime after that the queen laid in most of these cells. Today I moved this comb into the cell builder colony. Since I am not 100% certain when these eggs are due to hatch, I will check them each morning, until I see that they've hatched. The queen cell building colony was just relocated to ditch the older field force and fresh frames of emerging brood given along with several frames of nurse bees from strong colonies. I keep pollen sub patties on them and periodically a quart of 1:1 syrup. As soon as any young larva are chosen (by the bees) to be grown into queens, I will move them into cell cups.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

chillardbee said:


> I wouldn't say absconding impulse but rather supercedure, When bees abscond they all leave leaving an empty hive.


I've had many nucleus colonies abscond because of the heat. Most but not all the bees exit the hive with the queen, leaving a small population of young bees and whatever field bees were out of the hive when absconding took place. Upon inspection several days after the event you will find a small cluster of mostly young bees...many newly emerged...and a number of emergency cells. These are not supercedure cells but true emergency cells.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Fusion_power said:


> The bees to start the queen cells MUST be queenless for 24 hours before giving them eggs or larvae to start...
> 
> If you want to start 30 queen cells, you need 60,000 bees in the cell builder for the very best results. Please note that if the bees are already under the swarming impulse, you don't need as many, but if you are using either supersedure or emergency replacement impulse to rear queens, you need the quantity of bees.


I follow Brother Adam's advice and combine the swarming impulse and the emergency impulse. By boosting the strong future cell building colony with hive bodies of sealed brood...brood over excluder 10 days before grafting...the colony is taken to swarming pitch and then made queenless. The cell builder is created on grafting day morning, and can be grafted later that afternoon. Only sealed and emerging brood is in the cell builder. No need to wait for them to be queenless 24 hours. Because the colony is so strong and so full of nurses and has no open brood, the nurse bees jump on the grafts and raise beautiful cells packed with jelly. Being queenless for a few hours is plenty of time.


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## toad (Jun 18, 2009)

Daniel Y
Here comes the ridicule, Are you wearing the tin foil helmet yet???


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I've thought I posted this a couple of times but then it never shows up when I look back later.
I did mean Supersede not Abscond.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Daniel Y said:


> Just a thought offered for the purpose of others commenting on it.
> I realize that the use of 2 day old larva is something of the norm in rearing queens. or it appears that way by reading comments posted here.
> 
> I also realize that younger larva are not used do to them being to delicate to manipulated before the age of 2 days and that older larva will not develop into queens, or at least adequate queens.
> ...


I'd like to answer you question from my perspective, but I don't want you to think that in any way I'm calling you an idiot. I really don't think that's a fair evaluation of this board. We're all on here to learn and teach. Because someone gives you a different opinion doesn't mean anyone is belittling you.

My opinion of the proper age of larvae used in queen rearing...

At about 3 days old, the caste of a female larva is set...it can no longer become a queen and instead will be a worker bee. Does that mean there is a switch...either on or off? I don't think so. I think it's a matter of degree. The closer in age to the egg the better the queen. Yes, larvae only a couple hours old are difficult to graft, but not impossible. Once there is a puddle of jelly under the larva, it can easily be grafted with a tool like the chinese grafting tool. Basically what you are grafting is the puddle of jelly with a larva floating on it. A two day old larva is a monster and I would never graft one that old.

Does that make sense to you?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

toad said:


> Daniel Y
> Here comes the ridicule, Are you wearing the tin foil helmet yet???


Toad, why would you say that? Discussion and differing opinions are not ridicule.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Daniel Y said:


> So which is it? are the ideas of those like Doolittle, Smith, Alley and others worthless uneducated, experienced drivel? or are they the masters? although they are claimed to be both by the members of this group, both cannot possibly be true. Most of my posts have been thir words. yet time and again my posts are commented on lacking knowledge. .


Where has it been said that the ideas of Dolittle, Smith, and Alley are worthless, uneducated drivel?? They are the masters and we learn from them. Because they each have differenting opinions doesn't mean they are all wrong.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

For me, after having actually grafted larvae and raised queens for a few seasons, it became quite easy to see that the youngest larvae most usually became the best queens and the older (larger) larvae, if they weren't ignored or aborted, grew into lower quality queens. I thought to use the technique my IP (Initial Post) described, in order to see if allowing the bees to choose the larvae, then grafting them into cell cups, would give better queens, and/or reduce the percentage that the bees abort during development. When I'm grafting I sometimes add a row of four or five cells with a particular odd color into a bar, then graft slightly older (too old, in my opinion) larvae into those cups to see how the bees handle them. So far, they haven't even tried to grow any of these older larvae into queens - they abort them from the get-go, every time.

What I haven't done is try this when they have no younger larvae to choose from. Perhaps they might then accept some of these older larvae and attempt to grow them into queens.

---------------
I remember that through the years I had read many different books and articles about queen rearing, but other than using a few harvested swarm cells from time to time I hadn't really become interested in focused, intentional queen rearing. But after dealing with possibly AHB for about a decade, here in Southern Arizona, I decided I needed to become more serious about queen rearing, so thanks to Michael Bush, who made available many older books about queen rearing on his web site, such as authors, Dolittle, Smith, and Alley, I was able to refresh myself on several theories and techniques of queen rearing. Doing this and then beginning to practice queen rearing is what led me to synthesize my own ways of queen rearing. I consider the work that has been done, and continues being done in the field of queen rearing, invaluable to helping me to rear the best queens I possibly can. I like to think that there may always be room for a little more improvement, so I like to keep trying new ideas (at least that are new to me), in that hope.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> The cell builder is created on grafting day morning, and can be grafted later that afternoon. Only sealed and emerging brood is in the cell builder. No need to wait for them to be queenless 24 hours. Because the colony is so strong and so full of nurses and has no open brood, the nurse bees jump on the grafts and raise beautiful cells packed with jelly. Being queenless for a few hours is plenty of time.


I would even go further than that. We typically put grafts in builders literally minutes after inserting a cloake board and usually average 80 to 85 % acceptance. The biggest factors are the quality of the builder and the seasonal impulses at work at the time. I am not sure I can agree with fusion power's assertion that 30 cells can be raised per day on very many consecutive days at least not without significant boosting along the way. My experience has been that it takes a superior builder to maintain much over a 10 cell per day average in a starter/finisher application.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> My experience has been that it takes a superior builder to maintain much over a 10 cell per day average in a starter/finisher application.


My cell building process is a 20 day affair from cell builder setup to cell harvest. The day I harvest...45 cells per cell bar frame...the cell builder gets restocked with a hive body of sealed brood and the process starts again. I usually get 43-45 nice cells.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

we figure the max for us is starting 60 cells every 5th or 6th day and rest them for a cycle if there is any sign of feed level reduction when inspected 48 hours after grafting. The builders will definitely let you know when they are being overtaxed.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I just returned from checking, and most of the eggs have hatched (many must have hatched yesterday morning, right after I placed the comb in the cell builder - some larvae were already growing very fast even though it isn't possible for any to be more than fourteen hours old). Only seven were already started as queens, so I moved them into cell cups, then put everything back together - I'll do the same again tomorrow morning -- I'm hoping for about fifteen cells.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Joseph - It would be neat to see the experiment done in an observer hive with a video camera going on each side of a single frame. Just an idea.. - kc


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Okay, yesterday morning I was able to transfer enough to complete the bar of fifteen (though when I checked at dusk I only had a total of thirteen). There are still two cells on the comb, so I guess I have the fifteen I wanted.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Where has it been said that the ideas of Dolittle, Smith, and Alley are worthless, uneducated drivel??


This comment does not apply to anything said in this particular thread so it really is nothing but confusing to have put it here. My apologize. to help clear up some of your questions as well as the ridicule comment. I have been ridiculed as not being capable of knowing anything about beekeeping because I don't own bees. The very comments being spoken of are actually the claims of those such as Doolittle, Smith and Alley. in effect the comment is claiming they know nothing.

As far as this thread and discovery that the OP feels they thev found. It is consistent with at least two other findings of the greats. Smith in Better Bees being one of them.
I am interested in knowing if there is a significant improvement of the queens reared from eggs over those reared from larva. Significant enough that it might result in queens being produced that might produce colonies resistant to many of the diseases they suffer at this time. A better queen is a better queen at the very least. The question still remaining was whether a queen reared from an egg is in fact a better queen.

Michael you have answered that question to my satisfaction and I respect your knowledge and opinion. I actually find that with my particular interests in bees I have much to learn from your efforts. 

I am also interested if the transfer of eggs was actually accomplished. I may have missed it so will go back and read the thread again. Again my apologize for side tracking a very interesting thread.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have transferred eggs many times using the Jenter equipment. The bees have always removed the eggs. I can't say if the quality of queens would be better as I've never seen them raise them from eggs when doing any kind of queen rearing. The only ones raised from eggs that I know of are swarm cells and they are of great quality, but probably because the same conditions that induce swarming cause good feeding (lots of laborers to feed them and lots of food coming in).


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Well, the new comb that was transferred in laid-up with eggs from the queen mother is now completely capped - there were three cells that had been grown on it, two didn't look large enough to be acceptable, though one was very large and well formed. I destroyed the two smaller cells and placed the nice cell along with its frame into a mating nuc that was ready for it. The other cells grown from bee-chosen larvae grafted from this comb into plastic JZsBZs cell cups were also all very nice looking cells that are all capped, now. In a few more days I will place then in their own queenless mating nucs. From the appearance of these cells, and the ease at which the grafts were accepted after transfer, this technique may increase the acceptance of grafts as well as improve the development of the cells. In another week or two I should be able to see how the queens selected this way compare to others grown differently.


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## Dragonfly130 (Dec 12, 2008)

I'm curious Joe if you found the grafting to be easier? Did you find more jelly in the cell's you grafted from? Enough to eliminate the need for pre priming cups? Very curious of the outcome of this experiment. GREAT IDEA! Keep us updated and if you get a good outcome I may---*will* try it myself. I always thought maybe the bee's could pick the best larvae for queens and you found a way to try it and maybe found a way to better queens.

Thanks for your contributions Jim


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Yes, it was very easy to graft the larvae from natural queen cell cups into JZsBZs plastic queen cell cups, though I don't find it very difficult to graft from worker cells into JZsBZs plastic cell cups, it was certainly even easier in these circumstances, the larvae chosen by the workers to grow into queens were in white wax comb, the bees had actually enlarged the cells their chosen larvae were in, instead of just trying to float them out of their worker cells, and they were floating in significant pools of royal jelly. I used a German design stainless steel grafting needle, the large end, which I usually only use to spoon royal jelly when I'm priming cell cups. There was plenty of royal jelly, I didn't need to prime the cups.


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