# Four days after releasing queen... no brood... Normal?



## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

I installed two 3# packages with queens on Tuesday, April 17, and I put the queen/cage on the bottom of the tbh. Bry Friday, April 20, only half of the candy for both queens/cages had been eaten from the tubes, so I opened the release caps but they did not come out immediately, so I put them both back on the bottom with the cage door open. 
This evening, April 24, my wife and I did a quick look at the combs in both hives. All we could see were sugar water and pollen in the combs, i.e., no brood in either hive. *Is it normal for the queens to not have laid eggs by the forth day after my having released them?* I'm wondering if the queens flew out and away while I was putting the bars back on the top after I opened the escape caps on the cages.


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## MrHappy (Feb 10, 2012)

I've seen a bunch of people asking this in the last few months. Most people say to wait a few weeks to make sure. It is REALLY hard to see the eggs. Wait another week and check for the larva then. You can also try to see if you see the queen outright. But even then I'd wait another week if I didn't see anything. After two weeks if you don't see anything, ask a mentor for a frame of eggs they have a top bar. Then the hive can make a new queen if there isn't one.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It sometimes takes two weeks. After that I would worry.


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## MaryN (May 2, 2011)

I would not place the queen cage on the floor of the hive, I would always suspend it between two combs to make sure the queen is surrounded by bees at all times. 

If you have access to brood comb with eggs or young larvae I would not wait at all to do a test. Add the comb or even part of the comb in the centre of the colony and you'll know within a day or two if you have a queen or not. The bees emerging from that comb will be a welcome boost to the young colony, and if they were short of a queen they will appreciate the chance to rear an emergency queen.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Hoosier said:


> I'm wondering if the queens flew out and away while I was putting the bars back on the top after I opened the escape caps on the cages.


Every year, year after year the same sad story.
Why?
Well Hoosier, it probably is not your fault. You were not given good advice from the package provider.
Why were you in the hive in just 4 days??!!!
Next time, pull the cork fromn the candy end.
DO NOT poke a hole in the candy !
Write the date that the package was installed on a peice of tape and place on the lid..
DO NOT touch the hive other than to quietly slide the lid aside and fill the feeder until AT LEAST 10 days.
The queen WILL be released and laying.
Going into the hive early as you did is asking for queen balling.
Many hundreds, maybe thousands of queens are lost every year to newbees that were unfortunatly given goofy advice or none at all about proper queen release.
We see it year after year. Observe simple procedure with 98% acceptance,or go with the goofy. 40% or less.
All of the "push-in cages" or direct release, or "just toss her in"; loosing strategies.
Go with percentages on your side!
Pull the cork and keep your hands off for AT LEAST ten days.
At that point all of the hives pherimones should be in balance.
Then you can bang around and not worry.


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## JYawn (Dec 6, 2011)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Go with percentages on your side!


I'm with you on this one... From all the advice I've read there are about the same number of people that support each different technique. I'm thinking like you though. Why chance it? Why not just keep the candy plug in and wait a week and a half? When you gamble with anything why would you willingly choose to lower your odds? Maybe this isn't a huge concern for someone with well established hives who can just add a frame of open brood, but for a beginner like myself.... I'm taking the safe route. Even if that means my queen can't get right to work the day I recieve her, or I can't check the girls out for 10 more days.


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## mrobinson (Jan 20, 2012)

It seems to me that the consistent message _(and I'm afraid I didn't listen to it either...)_ is: leave them alone. They've got a lot of work to do: building comb, starting brood, starting stores. And, until the brood starts coming in, no way to replace their numbers. Keep feeders full as you must, but assume that nature will do what nature knows how to do. Stay out of the way and let her do it. _When_ the brood is coming in every day, the hive will be a lot stronger. Until that happens ... assume that it will, and keep out.


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

Thanks, everyone, I'm going to sit on my hands for at least a week now and HOPE.


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## blist (Jun 15, 2010)

I don't see how direct release is bad advice in a top bar hive. Check this: http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm#faqs (near the bottom, typical mistakes). I think you can trust Michael Bush's advice. 

We did two direct releases yesterday, one just taking the cap off and putting the cage on the bottom (she was actually out before we had the last bar on). The other letting her walk out and removing the queen cage, then putting the bars on.

That being said, I definitely wouldn't open a hive up and mess with it 4 days after a package install.

What I do to satisfy my fascination with watching the bees is build a window into the hive.  Not sure many would recommend that and it is definitely a pain (more time consuming) to build but I like it. Not to mention sometimes you can get rare views like this...






package install I did last year...after seeing this...I knew everything was going OK (without taking any bars out and disturbing the bees)


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## misslechunker (May 26, 2010)

I, myself have eight TBH's now. Having received a lot of advice from Dave (Dave's Bee's) and reading Mr. Bush's advice on installing packages. I have never placed a queen cage any any of my hives. Now, keep in mind that each and every package that I installed (4 total) spent three days in their shipping cage. Once I spritzed them lightly with some sugar water, I dumped them into their new homes. I then would place my top bars onto the hive leaving just enough room for me to get my hands into the hive body. That is when I would release the queen and her attendants into the rear of the hive. For those that do not know, the queen cage will have one side of it covered with screen wire. This screes wire will be stapled down so I made sure I had a very small flat bladed screw driver with me to remove the screen. This allowed her to walk right on out into her new "kingdom." Never had an issue with loosing a queen. In my opinion, this is the easiest method that I have found for her release. Too, I think it is very important to LEAVE THEM ALONE for just as long as possible ('cept for feeding) and let them begin to build comb and seal their new hive. I had a friend of mine that lost a package due to absconding. Come to find out, he opened the hive back up three times the very first day he placed them. He also checked on them three or four times the following day to make sure they were "okay!" By the third day, his bee's left him high and dry! I personally felt it was due to his constant interruptions because three weeks later, I helped hive another 3# package, kept him away from them for a while and now he has a flourishing hive of honeybee's! The bee's need to feel as though they are safe in their new home. They are not gonna feel that way if you go busting up their hive too often after you first hive them:no:! Of course, this is all just opinion but obviously it has worked over my way! LOL!


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## mrobinson (Jan 20, 2012)

_Per contra,_ my slightly different method was: put the cage down inside, dump 'em, retrieve cage, shake then brush 'em off it, remove the non-candy cork, promptly place my finger over the opening, and place the cage on the bottom of the (TBH) hive, face-up, with the exit hole well clear of the sides; right in the middle of the bees who are still lying (sayin',_ "WTF?!"  _) where I just dumped 'em. Remove hand, observe that she's headed for the exit hole as you close up. _Finis._ I now know that I should have simply left the cages right where they were, abandoned and ignored, until my next other reason for going in there.


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## blist (Jun 15, 2010)

Is that bad? I did one that way and one the other...both I removed the non-candy end, covered with my finger put on bottom of hive (on top of the dumped bees), one I left the cage in and closed up even though she was out before I was done...the other I waited until she was out and then just pulled the empty cage out, then closed it up. 



mrobinson said:


> _Per contra,_ my slightly different method was: put the cage down inside, dump 'em, retrieve cage, shake then brush 'em off it, remove the non-candy cork, promptly place my finger over the opening, and place the cage on the bottom of the (TBH) hive, face-up, with the exit hole well clear of the sides; right in the middle of the bees who are still lying (sayin',_ "WTF?!"  _) where I just dumped 'em. Remove hand, observe that she's headed for the exit hole as you close up. _Finis._ I now know that I should have simply left the cages right where they were, abandoned and ignored, until my next other reason for going in there.


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## mrqb (Jul 17, 2011)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Every year, year after year the same sad story.
> Why?
> Well Hoosier, it probably is not your fault. You were not given good advice from the package provider.
> Why were you in the hive in just 4 days??!!!
> ...


Harry i WANT TO APPLAUDE THIS POST,COULD YOU GET IT BIILBOARD SIZE AT THE TOP OF SITE,WHERE ARE PEOPLE LEARNING TO JUST GO BACK IN IN A COUPLE DAYS,I'M IN AWW EVERYTIME I READ OF SOMEONE DOING THIS OR DIRECT RELEASING BECAUSE "THE BEES WERE TOGETHER FOR 4 DAYS IN TRANSIT".THANKS


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## mrqb (Jul 17, 2011)

blist said:


> I don't see how direct release is bad advice in a top bar hive. Check this: http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm#faqs (near the bottom, typical mistakes). I think you can trust Michael Bush's advice.
> 
> We did two direct releases yesterday, one just taking the cap off and putting the cage on the bottom (she was actually out before we had the last bar on). The other letting her walk out and removing the queen cage, then putting the bars on.
> 
> ...


I'M NOT ARGUING WITH MR. BUSH but mr. bush has installed far more pkg.s than a new beek,and i just think it would be better advice for new beeks to go the old tried and true method.


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## blist (Jun 15, 2010)

mrqb said:


> I'M NOT ARGUING WITH MR. BUSH but mr. bush has installed far more pkg.s than a new beek,and i just think it would be better advice for new beeks to go the old tried and true method.


well, all I can say is that I personally think that hanging the queen cage in a new top bar hive has to be one of the worst pieces of advice around, the bees will build crooked comb and that is an absolute nightmare to correct...definitely not something I would wish on any new beek.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Can you see eggs. Give her more time and you will see larva.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>i just think it would be better advice for new beeks to go the old tried and true method. 

Hanging the cage in a foundationless system (top bar hive or foundationless frames) is a well proven method of getting every comb in the box messed up. Something I would like to see a new beek avoid if possible. Hanging the cage in a hive with foundation is a well proven way to get one messed up comb between the two frames of foundation and sometimes three messed up combs.


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