# VSH bees and hybridization



## Juhani Lunden

In order to maintain varroa resistance features in VSH bees the new queens (F1, F2, F3...) need to be mated with proper drones (selected for varroa resistance). But that is the same as other features. If the drones have no varroa resistance, it is clear that the offspring will have less resistance. 

Start with one bee yard. Leave is without treatments. Make nucs out of the survivors. If there are, after working this way several years with losses and final recovery, too many hives on the yard, make nucs to another yard and leave that also without treatments. This way a natural zone for varroa resistant drones is created as a circle around the starting point.


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## Eduardo Gomes

Juhani Lunden said:


> after working this way several years with losses and final recovery, too many hives on the yard, make nucs to another yard and leave that also without treatments. This way a natural zone for varroa resistant drones is created as a circle around the starting point.


Thank you Juhani.
I want to go faster. My window is about 2 or 3 years maximum to convert my bees into VSH bees. So I think I need to buy mated VSH queens, to speed the process. I want also to buy a bee similar to our in Portugal (in Portugal and Spain, as far as I know there are no VSH queens lines). Do you know any breeder in Europe that could help me in this matter? I have only the contact of Dr. Kefuss.


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## Juhani Lunden

Well I have VSH bees...

Look at here:

http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/index.html#paysLU


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## Eduardo Gomes

Thank you Juhani for the link. It will be very useful for me.

I'm a professional beekeeper from Portugal. I run an operation with 400 beehives. My plans is reach to 1000-1200 beehives in the next 2 years. I saw that you are doing a very long-term and a very good work in Finland with VSH lines. As I said I'm studying the possibility to convert my bees to VSH lines. This is one of the reason for my registration in this good forum. Here in Portugal, and I think in Spain also, VSH it's a new world, and local beekeepers had no experience in the ground with this kind of lines.

I have three others questions:
1- my average productivity is about 25-30 Kgs per hive/year in the last 5 years, and it's critical for me maintain that numbers. From your experience your VSH bees have more, equal or less productivity than your previous non VSH lines?
2- Do you know any professional beekeeper (with more than 300 beehives) who had convert is operation to VSH lines in Europe?
3- VSH lines are more time consumers in the management than no VHS lines?


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## Juhani Lunden

1. They produce less. They keep very good control of their brood nest and take out infested brood. This keeps them busy and restricts the size of the brood nest. Maybe the queens also lay less eggs. Hybrids maybe another thing, but crossings with my own stock has not made them bigger (because my stock makes also smaller brood nests). 

BUT: VSH bees may be well suited for areas with low crops (25-30kg/hive is very low for Finland) because they consume also very little and therefore in periods of no flow they are losing weight less than big brood nest stock.

2.No I don´t
3. No I don´t think so. They may be somewhat more aggressive, but on the other hand as they keep good control of their food supply too, they are good bees just "left alone".


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## Snowhitsky

Not wishing to criticize your bees Juhani but would bees used to a Finnish climate and flora do well in Spain/Portugal? I can't think of more different environments!

Eduardo. Could you let us know whether your hives are in permanent apiaries or whether you move them around to follow blooms? What is your climate like?

I'm in Catalonia, 200km south of Barcelona, about 20km inland but only 50m above sea level. My climate is the typical Mediterranean one with almonds blooming in January/February, most other wild plants blooming from March to May with citrus around April. Summers start in June and last to the end of september and are hot and dry with few or no nectar sources. After the rains start in september/october we get a couple of months of rosemary and heather flowers. Apart from a few weeks of colder or windy weather the bees can fly almost all year round.


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## Eduardo Gomes

Snowhitsky said:


> Eduardo. Could you let us know whether your hives are in permanent apiaries or whether you move them around to follow blooms? What is your climate like?


Hi Snowhitsky
Um saludo de Portugal!
I do transhumance with some beehives (near 250 this year) to follow the blooms. 

Local A) I have 9 apiaries at 80 Km from de Portuguese-Spain border (near and in the interior of our highest mountain, called Serra da Estrela). 
Local B) I have 2 other at the other side of Portugal with the main purpose of doing early splits because is warmer. 

The apiaries in the local A (mainly for honey production purpose) are 600 to 900 m above sea level. At 600 m the major bloom arise in April and May with rosemary (Lavandula stoechas) and July and August with the honeydew from holm oaks (encino). At the 900 m the major bloom arise in June and July from chestnut (Castanea sativa). There are blooms since April to August. The temperatures normally rise above 12ºC in February-March and go to 20ºC around April and May and in June go up until 30ªC or a little more until the end of August. Rain begin normally in mid september until february-march. Normally in winter the temperature descends below 7ºC and the queens stop laying. Normally there are no drones from October to March.


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## JWChesnut

Marla Spivak states that in the VSH lineage she maintains, behavior is due to recessive traits. (She also says that freely-crossed F1 is adequate for commercial purposes with IPM (ie. strategic treatment) methods).

In my experience with Glenn VSH production queens, the trait is nearly absent by F2 in my yards where drone mating is uncontrolled. This is entirely predictable from the dynamic of recessive traits. 

One could requeen from a controlled lineage at an annual cost, or take the effort to generate a saturated breeding colony in an isolated location with a controlled crossing by importing selective drone colonies. My guess it is more cost competitive to just buy the queens, and let the specialist maintain the recessive breeding stock on some remote island.


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## Eduardo Gomes

JWChesnut said:


> My guess it is more cost competitive to just buy the queens, and let the specialist maintain the recessive breeding stock on some remote island.


Thank you JWChesnut.
In fact I have no time and no knowledge to manage all this issues. I agree with you and I I think de best solution for me is to buy the queens with VSH feature. After de F1 I have to re-queen with VSH feature. 
I must buy these queens in Europe, because I can't import it from USA. I'm not sure, but I think that in USA these queens are available from $30-$40 USD, is that correct?

Do you know the reference of Marla Spivak's text you refer?


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## peterloringborst

> Marla Spivak states that in the VSH lineage she maintains, behavior is due to recessive traits. One could requeen from a controlled lineage at an annual cost,


Right, but this raises a several interesting questions. 1) does the enhancement of a recessive trait bring with it other potentially negative traits? Aside from homozygosity on the sex alleles, that is. 2) Is line breeding not diametrically opposed to the breeding system that honey bees possess, where maximum outcrossing is achieved? 3) Do we really understand how beneficial traits are propagating in a honey bee population? It isn't through line breeding, unless via a lineage that outperforms the rest in survival success and mating success. What do you think, JW?


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## Eduardo Gomes

There are very good points Peter. I think some of VSH breeders where alert to some of those issues.

Some of them state the intention and the need to follow some rules to maximize their breeding outcome: diverse sex alleles, desirable combinations for positive economic traits (honey yield, brood yield, build-up, frugality, workability etc. etc) plus the rules necessary to pass VSH expression on to future generations.


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## peterloringborst

Eduardo Gomes said:


> maximize their breeding outcome plus pass VSH expression on to future generations.


This may be a case where you can't have your cake and eat it too. _Querer ter sol na eira e chuva no nabal._


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## AstroBee

This is a daughter of an II pure VSH queen from the USDA. She was mated early 2013 and remained untreated, including zero brood manipulations. This picture was taken on October 24, 2014. Yes, those boxes are full of honey. The colony is a double deep with a QE. This is the second harvest of the year. The spring harvest was 4 mediums of honey. Mite counts were done in September 2014 and resulted in 3 mites in a 300 bee sample using a sugar roll. I have lots of diversity in VSH queens and find them as productive and non-resistant bees.





And her sister (1 mite per 300 bees all other conditions same as above). Again double deep QE followed by 1 medium + 1 deep. This colony also produced a good spring crop:


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## Eduardo Gomes

peterloringborst said:


> _Querer ter sol na eira e chuva no nabal._


 Thanks Peter for reminder me of this portuguese popular saying. In my humble opinion varroa control is the most important issue in todays apiculture. I think all of the methods of we can think have a lot of that _Querer ter sol na eira e chuva no nabal._ (have your cake an eat it too). Synthetic methods, organic methods, biotechnical methods, genetic methods to fight against varroa all have pros and cons. Do you know a method only with positive aspects and no negative colateral aspects?


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## Eduardo Gomes

AstroBee said:


> I have lots of diversity in VSH queens and find them as productive and non-resistant bees.


Congratulations! Great beehives! Is a Lang model? How many kgs a full medium Lang have? Here in Portugal I think that we use a bit smaller medium with a full average capacity of 13-14 Kgs. When do you do your harvest?

Do you think that F1 of this great queen will maintain VHS feature? And can you help informing me of a regular price for VSH queen in USA?


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## AstroBee

Hi Eduardo,

Yes, these are 10-frame langstroth boxes. A medium is about 35 lbs and a deep is about 80+ lbs of honey. I harvest the first part of June and then again in late September. This year I got a bit behind and delayed the second harvest till October. We generally have decent weather till December, so there's time to bulk them back up prior to sustained cold temps. 

Just to be clear, this is a F1 daughter of an II VSH breeder. I've been keeping VSH for several years and try very hard to maintain good saturation of VSH in my mating zones. Regarding a potential F2, its mite resistance will be diminished, for sure, but I've found they can remain productive and hold mites in check without treatments. BTW, I have some classic Italian colonies that are unable to successfully manage mites, so yes, VSH works and they CAN be productive. In the past, I've had other VSH bees that were VERY poor. Far too inefficient to be profitable. Some II VSH queens couldn't even maintain colony populations during peak season, and some F1 out-crosses were just about as bad. The brood viability issues seem to have gotten dramatically better than 6 years ago. Are current VSH the panacea to TF beekeeping? My guess is its too early to tell, but progress is being made and I believe they hold great promise.

I rarely contribute to the TF forum simply because I find the perspective here a bit restrictive and attitudes extreme. I love the concept of TF and have been practicing my own version for a good number of years. 


Best of luck in your endeavor.


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## apis maximus

AstroBee said:


> I've been keeping VSH for several years and try very hard to maintain good saturation of VSH in my mating zones.


*AstroBee*, Been reading your web page indicating the "keys" to your success. Nice work sir.

Could you please elaborate a bit on your methods used for keeping good saturation of the VSH levels? What kind of queens do you use in your program for drone mothers? Do you purchase II VSH queens and use their F1 daughters to select from?

Speaking of II VSH breeder queens, maybe you don't feel like calling out on the forum, the "bad" VSH queen sources...but maybe pointing to a source you like and feel good about the results you're getting by using their queens?

Thanks.


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## AstroBee

apis maximus said:


> *AstroBee*, Been reading your web page indicating the "keys" to your success. Nice work sir.
> 
> Could you please elaborate a bit on your methods used for keeping good saturation of the VSH levels? What kind of queens do you use in your program for drone mothers? Do you purchase II VSH queens and use their F1 daughters to select from?
> 
> Speaking of II VSH breeder queens, maybe you don't feel like calling out on the forum, the "bad" VSH queen sources...but maybe pointing to a source you like and feel good about the results you're getting by using their queens?
> 
> Thanks.


Regarding drones, I give drone comb to the highest producing colonies that also manage very low mite drop numbers. Some of these drone combs stay in the yard of origin and others get distributed to my outyards, so there a intermingling of drones throughout my operation. I have lots of colonies that are over 6 years old with zero mite treatments and thriving. All of these are used to rear drones. I also do a fair amount of culling poor performers. Colonies that don't make honey are not tolerated. 

The "bad" VSH were early Glenn Apiaries queens. To be fair, the term "bad" is not very appropriate. I think the term "raw" is more appropriate, as they had tremendous mite removing tendencies - it was simply too aggressive. Many of these and their daughters simply could not meet even a minimum level of productivity. However, some did and served to get me started in VSH. I still have several descendants of the Glenn Dark VSH line. I also used their Pol-Line bees with great success. I propagated a lot of the Pol-Line and any good performing VSH. I've also captured some interesting swarms that after outcrossing seemed manageable. After that, I've been selectively breeding from that pool. I've used Dr. John Harbo VSH for the past two years, and I also get drone semen from the USDA bee breeding lab in Baton Rouge. I use that to II daughters of my best performing queens. I definitely consider this a work in progress, so I don't want people to think that I have some magic bullet. It takes a lot of time to build up traits and requires constant effort to make progress each year. This is my second season performing II, and I plan to start transitioning more to that in future years.


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## Juhani Lunden

AstroBee said:


> . I have lots of colonies that are over 6 years old with zero mite treatments and thriving. All of these are used to rear drones..


So you are TF beekeeper with good success. Looked at your webpages, you are commercial too. I did not see your name there? Nothing that matters, but often somebody asks about commercial TF beekeepers, would be good to give some examples...

In another thread there came up this name I had not heard before: Olympic Wilderness Apiaries http://www.owa.cc/
Dan and Judy Harvey

Very convincing webpages...


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## Eduardo Gomes

Hello Juhani
You wrote (3.7.2012) "Epigenetic factors might be one explanation in varroa resistance. Genes turn on as a consequence of mite pressure or other factors. This might also explain why there have been so many disappointments when new queens have been bought with big hopes. *If the conditions in the new place have been vastly different, the genes turn off and bees lose their ability to withstand mites.*"

Can you please elaborate a little more on this issue, based on your personal or others breeders expertise?


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## AstroBee

Juhani Lunden said:


> So you are TF beekeeper with good success. Looked at your webpages, you are commercial too. I did not see your name there? Nothing that matters, but often somebody asks about commercial TF beekeepers, would be good to give some examples...
> 
> In another thread there came up this name I had not heard before: Olympic Wilderness Apiaries http://www.owa.cc/
> Dan and Judy Harvey
> 
> Very convincing webpages...


Not sure I would consider myself as a commercial beekeeper/breeder. We run our operation as a business and make a profit, but we're nothing like many of the dedicated breeders/producers. The term "sideline" would be more appropriate. I work full-time in addition to beekeeping. All of my queen bees are produced for our local community. I would like to be able to expand, but work (the job that pays the mortgage) and family are my highest priorities.


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## Juhani Lunden

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Hello Juhani
> You wrote (3.7.2012) "Epigenetic factors might be one explanation in varroa resistance. Genes turn on as a consequence of mite pressure or other factors. This might also explain why there have been so many disappointments when new queens have been bought with big hopes. *If the conditions in the new place have been vastly different, the genes turn off and bees lose their ability to withstand mites.*"
> 
> Can you please elaborate a little more on this issue, based on your personal or others breeders expertise?


It is just a thought. For instance Ingemar Fries study in Gotland (Sweden): in 10 years bees change dramatically. I have seen it with my own bees, too. Hives become smaller, they take out brood, mites seem to disappear. Bees withstand viruses. How is this possible in just 4-5 generations? If there were some epigenetic factors involved it could be more easy to explain. 
Other breeders have reported similar observations. 

Breeding and selection needs variation. In varroa resistance breeding new variation is hard to get, there are so few breeders doing this work. Epigenetic might come for help to some extend. Bees just turn their genes on, according to needs (mite removal etc.) 

Our breeder hives have about 2-5% infestations. If our daughter queens are put to hives with low mite numbers, do they really act the same way in these conditions? *If* there are epigenetic factors involved, how fast can these factors be lost? Can they be lost in the same generation or does it only happen in F1 or even F2, if bees in their new hives are treated. I don´t know.


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## peterloringborst

Juhani Lunden said:


> If the conditions in the new place have been vastly different, the genes turn off and bees lose their ability to withstand mites.


This is pure speculation. I don't think this statement is supportable. Honey bees are highly adaptable and can succeed in a variety of locations. Further, genes are not willy-nilly turning on and off. Finally, what is the genetic basic for mite resistance? Nobody really knows, other than some bees seem to have it and others don't. It's a behavioral thing, again, which appears heritable, but whether it can be switched on and off by environmental factors is a bit of a stretch, based on current understanding.


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## Juhani Lunden

peterloringborst said:


> , but whether it can be switched on and off by environmental factors is a bit of a stretch, based on current understanding.


Current understanding is what?

You said nobody knows what is the basics for mite resistance. I said it is a thought. Too big a thought for current understanding?


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## peterloringborst

> You said nobody knows what is the basics for mite resistance. I said it is a thought. Too big a thought for current understanding?


Not what I meant. JWChesnut schooled me on the dangers of ascribing all sorts of phenomena to epigenetics. The epigenetics people are very quick to connect between the dots, where there may be no connections. It's cool to speculate, that's how we move forward. But a lot of new ideas are not panning out.


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## Eduardo Gomes

I had identified some europeans breeders of VSH lines.
From a genetic point of view is better buy some VSH queens to each european breeder or buy all the VSH queens to the same breeder, assuming that all are qualitatively similar?


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## mike bispham

JWChesnut said:


> In my experience with Glenn VSH production queens, the trait is nearly absent by F2 in my yards where drone mating is uncontrolled. This is entirely predictable from the dynamic of recessive traits.


The critical factor is the presence of treating apiaries. If there are few, then your own bees and and any nearby ferals (that by definition manage their own varroa) will supply the mite-management you need. 

You won't lose those traits unless you fail to select properly - and that includes de-selecting treatment-dependent bees.

Distance from treating apiaries, and ability to dominate drone space are the critical factors, always. Getting non treatment-dependent bees is just the start - you have to keep them that way. 

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Do you know a method only with positive aspects and no negative colateral aspects?


Traditional systematic selective propagation of more resistant strains.

Treatment as a managemet method achives the precise opposite. The result is perpetual dependence.

Its very simple. Don't let people baffle you with cod-scientific quibbles. Husbandry is _always_ centred on selective propagation for desired traits/against undesirable ones. Anyone arguing against that doesn't know what they're talking about.

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham

peterloringborst said:


> ... what is the genetic basic for mite resistance? Nobody really knows, other than some bees seem to have it and others don't. It's a behavioral thing, again, which appears heritable ....


My understanding is that the molecular basis for some mite managemet behaviours is known. The Sussex University research effort uses molecular testing to select queens, thus removing uncertainties due to multiple patrilines. 

Mike (UK)


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## mbc

peterloringborst said:


> Not what I meant. JWChesnut schooled me on the dangers of ascribing all sorts of phenomena to epigenetics. The epigenetics people are very quick to connect between the dots,


Whatever you call it (epigenetics is a convenient vehicle to label it at the mo, sounds cool too!) it's obvious that hidden genes which don't normally express themselves can quite quickly come to the fore once the bees that don't carry them are allowed to die under certain environmental pressures.


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## Rolande

mbc said:


> it's obvious that hidden genes which don't normally express themselves can quite quickly *come to the fore once the bees that don't carry them are allowed to die under certain environmental pressures.*


I often wonder how much great breeding material has been squandered by allowing lines to die out just because they're not at the top of the game with regards to handling varroa.


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## mike bispham

Rolande said:


> I often wonder how much great breeding material has been squandered by allowing lines to die out just because they're not at the top of the game with regards to handling varroa.


Slippery slope Roland. 

How much great breeding material has never been manifested because beekeepers couldn't be bothered to make an effort? 

I think any reasonably diverse population has the seeds for all purposes. For millions of years nature has done the necessary positive selection and negative winnowing that reduces non-optimal alleles at any given time and place. Fail to mimic that and you're soon running just to stand still.

Mike (UK)


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## mbc

Rolande said:


> I often wonder how much great breeding material has been squandered by allowing lines to die out just because they're not at the top of the game with regards to handling varroa.


The dude abides, - presumably good material looks after itself to a large extent and it's up to us to tweak the best bits out for our own convenience.


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## mike bispham

mbc said:


> The dude abides


Love it! My thought for the day!

Mike (UK)


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## Eduardo Gomes

Epigenetics is a bag which fits much. However this is not to say that it is not a valuable concept.

From my point of view and returning to what truly interests me: american breeders give any warranties with regard to this problem, ie, replace the queens for free if the VSH trait not manifest ?


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## Rolande

mike bispham said:


> Slippery slope Roland.
> 
> How much great breeding material has never been manifested because beekeepers couldn't be bothered to make an effort?
> 
> I think any reasonably diverse population has the seeds for all purposes. For millions of years nature has done the necessary positive selection and negative winnowing that reduces non-optimal alleles at any given time and place. Fail to mimic that and you're soon running just to stand still.
> 
> Mike (UK)


Not a slippery slope at all Mike, just a thought -nothing wrong with thinking. 

If a live/let die approach is taken there has got to be a loss of material which might be useful in other areas of bee breeding such as productivity. Lost to future breeding programmes simply due to an inability (at this time) to handle the mites without some back up help. Sadly, the 'best' for one thing might not always be able to look after itself when pressured by a heavy hitting opponent but that doesn't mean that it was of no value just because 'nature' was allowed to 'de-select it'.


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## jonathan

An obvious example would be if mite tolerant bees ended up more susceptible to some some other pathogens because of the loss of genetic variation in the stock. Or left us with stock which was too aggressive to work comfortably, too swarmy, too unproductive etc. Be careful what you wish for as the saying goes.


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## mbc

Famously, acarine wiped out all the lovely Amm bees of the British Isles, imagine if we still had that material to work with.


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## Eduardo Gomes

It is natural that a post that started with very pragmatic objectives of obtaining information about VSH bees in Europe , with the intention of buying VSH queens have had some input side a bit . In Portugal it is the same . Nothing surprising for me and therefore the philosophy of live and let live applies here also .

It is up to me to focus again the topic in two or three issues that matter to me and that have not been answered and for which I thank you for your cooperation :
1 ) Should I buy the queens to different breeders or rather should I buy queens only to a breeder ?

2 ) What kind of guarantees are usually given to the buyer if something does not work as expected , including the daughters of the queen bees purchased not express the VSH trait ( due to epigenetic factors mentioned above ... or to other causes , which in Portugal they say buy a pig in a poke )?


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## AstroBee

Eduardo Gomes said:


> It is natural that a post that started with very pragmatic objectives of obtaining information about VSH bees in Europe


Please don't take offense, but this was probably a rookie mistake of posting your noteworthy questions to the Treatment Free Forum. These waters are simple not very productive. The Queen & Bee Breeding, or Bee Forum may have been more productive.


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## AstroBee

Eduardo Gomes said:


> 2 ) What kind of guarantees are usually given to the buyer if something does not work as expected , including the daughters of the queen bees purchased not express the VSH trait ( due to epigenetic factors mentioned above ... or to other causes , which in Portugal they say buy a pig in a poke )?


I know of no breeder in the US that offers such a guarantee. Most reputable breeders will stand behind the queens they provide, but no guarantees would be given to successive generations. I suspect that if you bought a VSH II breeder queen and she lived a full season and you then found that her colony was running very high mite levels that a breeder would perhaps work with you. However, I'm sure they would really want to fully understand the circumstances associated with such a scenario.


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## jonathan

Eduardo.
Do the beekeepers local to you work with a single subspecies of bee or is there a mixture?
If you have a subspecies which predominates you would be best to work with that.
In the US honeybees are not native but in Europe there are subspecies associated with different regions and hybridisation is a threat to all of them, some more than others.


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## jonathan

mbc said:


> Famously, acarine wiped out all the lovely Amm bees of the British Isles, imagine if we still had that material to work with.


LoL.
Famously in the twisted ministry of propaganda run by Brother Adam.


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## Eduardo Gomes

AstroBee said:


> Please don't take offense, but this was probably a rookie mistake of posting your noteworthy questions to the Treatment Free Forum. These waters are simple not very productive. The Queen & Bee Breeding, or Bee Forum may have been more productive.


I am very grateful to you for all the help and good information you have given me . Also take this opportunity to thank everyone who has so far shared their ideas and knowledge with me on this topic , even the most lateral .

I'm not offended by anything you call me a rookie. It is the stark reality .

By the way sorry to go trampling English here and there. I am using an automatic translator that has helped me a lot , but surely there is a mistake here and there . Thank you for your understanding.


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## Eduardo Gomes

jonathan said:


> Do the beekeepers local to you work with a single subspecies of bee or is there a mixture?


Hi jonathan
You're quite right . In Portugal there is a prevailing view that considers our bee a natural hybrid of A e M strains. Down is a scientific reference in this regard

"_The honeybee , Apis mellifera L. , is distributed naturally in Africa , Middle East and Europe. The adaptation of the range of climatic ecological conditions favored the development of more than 24 subspecies . Molecular and morphological studies enabled group them into four evolutionary lineages ( A, M , C , O) . The O and the A lineages include the subspecies occurring in Africa and the Middle East , respectively , strains C and M include the European subspecies . *In the Iberian Peninsula lineages A and M occurs*._"



> If you have a subspecies which predominates you would be best to work with that.


I do not know if I understand correctly your words , but you 're telling me not to import other genetic lines from abroad and to create my own VSH lines from the local bee ?


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## jonathan

All subspecies have the potential to be enhanced for VSH traits.
If you have a local subspecies such as Apis mellifera iberiensis I would select from within that.
Local breeders will not thank you if you introduce different strains to the area which will hybridise with their own stock.
Hybridisation generally produces a vigorous and often aggressive cross.
It all depends on your area. If it is already totally mixed, there is probably little to lose in conservation terms but if it has a stable local bee then bringing in outside genetics could be disruptive.


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## Eduardo Gomes

Thank jonathan you for your clear opinion . I am aware of the issues you raise . And I 'm sensitive to them .

I 'm a beekeeper who lives exclusively on what the bees gave to me. I have to grow and reach the 1000 hives in the next 2 years to have the standard of living that I want for me and for my family. I still can not handle a 1000 beehives in the near future and make this work for selection . Like in Portugal nobody is working to create VSH lines I also can not help me in this alternative .

As I believe that the best way there now to manage the problem of varroa is VSH lines I wonder how to square the circle. How to manage 1000 productive hives and simultaneously develop VSH traits in my apiaries? The best solution I found so far is to buy VSH lines where they exist in Europe .

But I'm open minded to any solution that will allow me to achieve the same goals and using only our good bee Apis mellifera iberiensis .


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## mike bispham

Eduardo Gomes said:


> As I believe that the best way there now to manage the problem of varroa is VSH lines I wonder how to square the circle. How to manage 1000 productive hives and simultaneously develop VSH traits in my apiaries? The best solution I found so far is to buy VSH lines where they exist in Europe .
> 
> But I'm open minded to any solution that will allow me to achieve the same goals and using only our good bee Apis mellifera iberiensis .


Eduardo,

I think your best option is; first to import resistant bees as locally as possible - that might include nearby feral stock as well as John Kefuss' (less local) material. Secondly, to develop a management system in which selection for mite resistance is occurring. 

That way you won't have to start from scratch, and you largely keep the local strains you have. This is the sort of advice supplied by people like Marla Spivak, who been working on the development of treatment free bees for many years.

There will be a production cost, but you can minimise it - and there may well be a future income stream if you succeed.

I'd look to proper experts - people like Marla Spivak and John Kefuss for further advice about how to manage apiaries in order to develop resistance while minimising loss of productivity. Both address this specific issue. 

You can almost certainly do the same thing using only your own bees, but it will probably take longer and require more specially dedicated time set aside. You would in some senses be reinventing the wheel. 

Well adapted local ferals would be my preferred material - I'd invest some time in exploring that avenue. 

Good luck with your project.

Mike (UK)


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## Eduardo Gomes

Thank you for your suggestions Mike. Make much sense to me. I have followed the work of Dr. Keffuss and has already contacted him (and other VSH europeans breeders) to help me in this project . I am waiting for his reply.

Relative to local ferals I can say and according to that which comes to my knowledge that are practically non-existent in my area. I mean those ferals that resist 2-3 years in a given location . Will be finding some, but are swarms of the year , which I think are not suitable for the purpose in mind. These are normally neglected by me for two reasons : first, I do not know what comes along with the swarm (which genetic? wich diseases? ); the second aspect, his capture could be high cost to me in terms of time. I think in the future the problem of finding ferals still further aggravate due to the presence of Vespa velutina (Yellow legs hornet) in my country. I will however be more careful and try to collect more information to local people to identify possible good local ferals.


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## Juhani Lunden

Eduardo Gomes said:


> I had identified some europeans breeders of VSH lines.
> From a genetic point of view is better buy some VSH queens to each european breeder or buy all the VSH queens to the same breeder, assuming that all are qualitatively similar?


Since nobody has answered to this one:

Of course it is better to buy from several breeders. Breeding and bee breeding in particular is all about variation. You cannot have enough of it. Start with at least two different origins. This way you create your own line from the beginning. This is specially important to you since you also need good honey production.


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## mbc

Juhani Lunden said:


> Since nobody has answered to this one:
> 
> Of course it is better to buy from several breeders. Breeding and bee breeding in particular is all about variation. You cannot have enough of it. Start with at least two different origins. This way you create your own line from the beginning. This is specially important to you since you also need good honey production.


This is arguable. Many resistance mechanisms are obviously governed by a series of recessive genes and to enable them to be strongly expressed in a population a degree of inbreeding is almost essential. I have read nothing to suggest that separate populations with vsh or population dynamics behaviours or grooming behaviour complement each other when crossed.
For this very reason I think it would be extremely unlikely for any breeder to offer some kind of 'down the line' warranty that subsequent generations of their bees would continue to express varroa resistant characteristics once out of their hands.


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## Eduardo Gomes

"F1 daughters that were mated in very highly VSH drone saturated mating zones, then the F1 would likely have very high VSH traits. If the II breeder was purchased instead and the local mating zones were very poorly saturated with VSH drones, then obviously the VSH traits would be much more diminished." *vs.*"You are saying that F1 queens are likely to be better for breeding purposes than instrumentally inseminated queens (II)? On most circumstances it is just the opposite. From a breeder queen even results is what usually is looked for. F1 queens don´t give even offspring."

I'm a little confused about the best way for me : buy II or F1?

I live well with differing views . In the end it will be up to me to decide , but I already have some life experience tells me that the discrepancies are often the result of some less clear statement , that is, the discrepancies are not background .


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## Eduardo Gomes

mbc said:


> For this very reason I think it would be extremely unlikely for any breeder to offer some kind of 'down the line' warranty that subsequent generations of their bees would continue to express varroa resistant characteristics once out of their hands.


Is it correct to conclude from the words of you : do not go this route because in Portugal , you will not be able to keep the features right from the first crosses , because you have many local bees around?

Just to contextualize I think that I have apiaries within 3-5 Km anyone besides me has bees.


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## mbc

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Is it correct to conclude from the words of you : do not go this route because in Portugal , you will not be able to keep the features right from the first crosses , because you have many local bees around?
> 
> Just to contextualize I think that I have apiaries within 3-5 Km anyone besides me has bees.


I was generalizing Edwardo, not answering specifically to your situation.

If you bought an II vsh queen and raised a load of queens from her, their drones would be 100% vsh as selected by the breeder of the II queen, and you may be able to saturate your mating area with these drones.


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## Juhani Lunden

mbc said:


> This is arguable. Many resistance mechanisms are obviously governed by a series of recessive genes and to enable them to be strongly expressed in a population a degree of inbreeding is almost essential.


Inbreeding VSH genes does not mean we have to inbreed for instance sex alleles. VSH is governed by many genes, getting these genes and different sex alleles (and other usefull stuff) in the lines to be crossed is the ideal solution. I would not buy my VSH mothers from one queen breeder only. 

I have read, that pure VSH are 100% resistant, F1 is 50% resistant and so on. Therefore I would call these genes additive, not recessive. If they were recessive, the trait would vanish in F1 completely, wouldn´t it?


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## JWChesnut

Juhani Lunden said:


> If they were recessive, the trait would vanish in F1 completely, wouldn´t it?


No. A "rr x Dr" crossing yields a mendelian ratio of rr at 50%. For bees the expression in F1 corresponds to the frequency of heterozygotes among the mothers of the drones x 0.5. If 1 of 10 drones was born of a heterozygote mother, then expression would be 0.05. If 10 of 10, then expression would be 0.5. What is likely additive is the loci that control the behavior. There may be 20 of these. The full expression requires each of these 0.05 or 0.5 probabilities to hit correctly.

At 0.05^20 or 0.5^20, for full expression, you get some really low probability. However, there is likely redundancy in the coding, and you get adequate behavior when say 5 of 20 genes are homozygous recessive.

It really depends on the background concentration of heterozygotes.


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## Juhani Lunden

"What is likely additive is the loci that control the behaviour..."

Would it still be possible for the F1 to have 50% resistance? (mated with totally non VSH drones)


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## jonathan

Juhani Lunden said:


> Therefore I would call these genes additive, not recessive.


That is my understanding as well Juhani. As far as I can see many if not most aspects of bee behaviour are controlled by multiple genes and trying to see things in terms of simple mendelian inheritance is likely to lead to erroneous conclusions.



> Dr. Harbo believes that the VSH trait is controlled by an unknown number of additive genes. Additive genes are polygenic that lack dominance. Simply put, the more of these genes are present, the more the trait is expressed.


http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/genetic_aspects_queen_production_3.html


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## JWChesnut

Juhani
Bees colonies carry forward really remarkable heterogeneity as a population. That is the basis of their evolutionary success. There will be background recessive heterozygotes and any wild mating (of 20 x drones and a interbreeding population of 1000 colonies) will have some percentage of "rr" queens (for any particular loci). Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium theory fully explains the persistence of these alleles.

Maintaining a "rr" lineage in a wild-outcrossing is difficult, and nearly impossible when trying to hit that combination for 20 independent alleles. 

You can maintain a "rr" in a controlled inbred population. Plant breeding does this all the time in its foundation lines for hybrid breeding. The foundation lines are not used for production, but for the crosses to generate hetero hybrids. Foundation lines are not healthy, they are artificial constructs to maintain particular alleles. Inbreeding and Bees are a bad combination.

Homozygous recessive lineages are scarce as hen's teeth in open pollinated plant species. Recessive landraces are common in plants such as tomatoes that are selfed (and why backyard devotees can maintain selfed plants as legitimate landraces). Bees do not self.

Legitimate breeding theory for honey bees closely adhere to the Laidlaw Closed Population model. You start with a really, really large populations and prune off the deleterious crosses, but retain the closed interbreeding. You add back heterozygosity when inbreeding develops (which is acceptably slow to develop because of the large initial pool). Selection is based on a quantifiable and numerical selection. *The goal is to shift the mean phenotype (and not make a quantum leap). * A shift in the mean phenotype implies lots of failures (colonies below the mean). In a economic operation, the "below the mean" colonies will be supported, as the loss rate (50% lies below the mean) will be non-economic. The mean will shift only as long as the population remains closed and selected within the promoted colonies. Cobey addresses this conundrum by II and homogenized semen from the selections. I don't see how it works in a backyard.


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## Juhani Lunden

Juhani Lunden said:


> If they were recessive, the trait would vanish in F1 completely, wouldn´t it?





JWChesnut said:


> No.


I really need to understand this better.

There maybe 20 genes affecting VSH trait. 

r= resistant N= not resistant

100% pure VSH queen will have "rr" in every single of these 20 loci.

When this queen is crossed with totally non-VSH drones the offspring will be r x N(1), r x N(2) ... r x N(20) 

If the VSH trait, coming via gene "r" is recessive, wouldn´t this individual be totally non-resistant, because doesn´t have any homozygous loci (rr).


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## mbc

Even in a backyard the bell curve can be pushed the right way by selection, both of breeders and those to cull. That would shift your mean phenotype even in a small scale semi closed system.


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## JWChesnut

Juhani Lunden said:


> When this queen is crossed with totally non-VSH drones the offspring will be r x N(1), r x N(2) ... r x N(20)
> 
> If the VSH trait, coming via gene "r" is recessive, wouldn´t this individual be totally non-resistant, because doesn´t have any homozygous loci (rr).


No, because in the real world r and N exist in a Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium. In the wild, drones are always a mix of r and N alleles. The fertilized daughters of a pure VSH homozygous x wild mating will have homozygous "rr" VSH expressed at some ratio of number of matings x proportion of "r" alleles in the wild x number of operative loci. 

mbc "shift the mean phenotype even in a small scale semi closed system" ---

It like wining the lottery in Las Vegas -- phenotype of F1 == proportion of "r" raised to the **power** of the number of loci. Say you have a 20% favorable drone population (for alleles at any particular loci) and the queen has 85% favorable alleles. For a genetic system based on 20 loci, the likelihood or retaining the same "additive" r value phenotype as the queen mother in F1 for a fertilized egg is 4 chances in 1,000,000,000,000,000

This why bees are slow to speciate, but quick to accumulate variation. It is why Cobey went to II for her matings.


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## mbc

Thanks for the facts JW, but it's also a fact that it's possible to move any population the way you wish it to go by culling the tail of the bell curve. Maybe achieving the same additive r value in the F1 generation is beyond the common beekeeper, but we can leave that to the giants while making small steps of improvement by carefully selecting our own bees. Sorry to mess up a vsh thread, but changing the phenotype of bees can be achieved without II or even strict mating control, I have done it with my bees, maybe not dramatic change but certainly pushing them the way I've wanted them to go to a certain extent.


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## Juhani Lunden

JWChesnut said:


> No, because in the real world r and N exist in a Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium. In the wild, drones are always a mix of r and N alleles. The fertilized daughters of a pure VSH homozygous x wild mating will have homozygous "rr" VSH expressed at some ratio of number of matings x proportion of "r" alleles in the wild x number of operative loci.


Ok thanks for clearing, I was talking theoretically.


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## Juhani Lunden

Here is what Bob Danka writes about VSH genes and their effects, from http://vshbreeders.org/forum/archive/index.php?thread-154.html, 1.30.2013

"Let me add to and modify some of the information given by my friend Renaud. The bottom line is that his explanations are correct for practical purposes. On average, more outcrossing to non-VSH drones will yield less expression of VSH in offspring colonies with each new generation. But here are a few additional thoughts.

1. VSH consistently has appeared to be a genetically additive trait that probably involves numerous genes. Minimally we could expect involvement of genes that regulate detection, uncapping and removal of affected brood. Not only don’t we know how many genes are involved, we have little idea of the forms and frequencies of relevant alleles of those genes. So I suggest that we should use the term “genetics” instead of “chromosomes” when talking about the issue of genetic control of VSH. Thus, halving the amount of the VSH genetics is expected in general to diminish VSH expression by half.

2. “Serial dilution” would be expected if some basic conditions are met. First, dilution would occur if VSH-derived queens mate to drones that have no genetics for VSH. Note two things: 1) If you want to maintain VSH, having drones with VSH genetics is very beneficial. It is relatively easy to have such drones around, and should be even more effective for you (Rusty) because you live in the boonies. 2) There likely are increasing frequencies of VSH genetics available because of the increasing distribution of bees with the trait (and perhaps also because of natural selection), so your queens may be getting some matings with VSH drones. 

Second, besides no paternal input of VSH, serial dilution would occur if there is random selection of queen mothers. Our most recent experiences (selection of Pol-line bees) suggests that non-random selection of outcrossed queens – by choosing colonies with low varroa populations -- keeps enough of the proper VSH genetics (presumably from chance matings to drones that have some VSH genetics) to use the select queens successfully as breeders, i.e., that their open-mated daughters provide reasonably good varroa resistance. 

You have several problems, Rusty. You know little of the heritage of your open-mated queen, i.e., you don’t know if there was any drone-side VSH involved and you don’t know if the single queen you plan to get was randomly selected (or, more to teh point, of average performance). As Renaud says, you may get some clarification about these things from the seller. Finally, with such a small sample size (one queen!), all the calculations which are based on large sample sizes may not hold. The particular queen that is your grafting source almost certainly will be better or poorer than average by chance, so...“your results may vary”.

Bob Danka
USDA Honey Bee Breeding, Genetics and Physiology Laboratory"


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## mbc

I'm learning loads on this thread, thanks guys, keep it coming


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## mike bispham

jonathan said:


> That is my understanding as well Juhani. As far as I can see many if not most aspects of bee behaviour are controlled by multiple genes and trying to see things in terms of simple mendelian inheritance is likely to lead to erroneous conclusions.


I agree. Breeding should be approached from a distance, building in that which demonstrably works by running real field tests (untreated bees over several years competing on productivity). 

But we're talking about trying to raise resistance in a domesticated population here. Discussion of the mechanics is helpful - but misleading. Its putting the focus on the wrong issue. 

Bringing in the wanted alleles, then establishing them in the population, while maintaining the local desired genes - its hard to see how that can be done other than by making proper observations of the desired behaviours, and making increase as much as possible from those colonies displaying them. 

I can't see how it can be done fast without first raising the levels of hybrids (vhs/locals) to a healthy rate and then selecting toward local features.

I think the proper response to Eduardo's central questions is: no, you cannot bring in vhs bees in sufficient amounts to make a real difference, without mongrelising your own bees.

But is is possible to raise resistance (via vsh _and other mechanisms_) within your own population. 

Bringing in bees already vhs equipped will make things go faster, but if they're non locals they'll increase the hybrid nature of the result. The more you bring in the more that will occur. 

As far as production is concerned that may not matter.

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham

JWChesnut said:


> Legitimate breeding theory for honey bees closely adhere to the Laidlaw Closed Population model. You start with a really, really large populations and prune off the deleterious crosses, but retain the closed interbreeding. You add back heterozygosity when inbreeding develops (which is acceptably slow to develop because of the large initial pool). Selection is based on a quantifiable and numerical selection. *The goal is to shift the mean phenotype (and not make a quantum leap). * A shift in the mean phenotype implies lots of failures (colonies below the mean). In a economic operation, the "below the mean" colonies will be supported, as the loss rate (50% lies below the mean) will be non-economic. The mean will shift only as long as the population remains closed and selected within the promoted colonies. Cobey addresses this conundrum by II and homogenized semen from the selections. I don't see how it works in a backyard.


It works in a backyard by incrementally, steadily, and systematically selecting for the traits you want and against those you don't. Its husbandry - in the proper sense of - rather than intensive or line breeding.

It's what Marla Spivak and John Kufus and every other well qualified and competent bee breeder advocates.

In the timeless expression: 'Put only best to best'

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham

Juhani Lunden said:


> Ok thanks for clearing, I was talking theoretically.


John Kefus's take on this sort of approach is clear: you don't need to know how things work; you just need to know that they will work. This sort of theorising, in the hands of amateurs, is really of little use. 

Look instead at what the experts say (in this case Marla Spivak): 

"We have bred hygienic behavior into an Italian line of honey bees. However, the behavior is present in all races and lines of honey bees in the US (and the world!), and can be easily selected for, using the methods described below. Our "MN Hygienic Line" of bees is available commercially in the US and has become widely accepted by beekeepers. However, our hope is that beekeepers select for hygienic behavior from among their favorite line of honey bee, whether it be Carniolan, Italian, Caucasian or other species. In this way, there will be a number of resistant lines avail-able within the U.S. to maintain genetic diversity -- the perfect way to promote the vitality of our pollinators."
Details available here: http://www.sare.org/Learning-Center...ntrolling-Honey-Bee-Diseases-and-Varroa-Mites

Note also: it has been said many time: vhs alone is not sufficient. There is known to be a range of mite-management behaviours, and all offer contributions to the problem. While vhs can be used to proved enough traction to drop treatments, (via freeze-brood assay tests), the only effective way of picking them out is by not treating and seeing which thrive. Starting with imported vhs is a beginning; but systematic treatment reduction severe enough to expose the weaker will also be needed. 

Mike (UK)


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## jonathan

Observation is important.
I have a dozen or so Apideas/mini nucs overwintering.
These have a population of about 1500 bees and a queen.
None of them have had any mite treatment.
I watched one yesterday dumping white mite damaged pupae at the front entrance.
Presumably those were being uncapped and removed so there is some hygienic behaviour present.
If you look at the insert tray on any colony on a mesh floor you sometimes see pupal debris such as legs and antennae which come from uncapped mite infested pupae.


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## Juhani Lunden

Juhani Lunden said:


> Here is what Bob Danka writes about VSH genes and their effects, from http://vshbreeders.org/forum/archive/index.php?thread-154.html, 1.30.2013



As a conclusion I would say, that if Bob Danka 
a) has it right, then the genes affecting VSH are not recessive, but additive 
b) has it wrong, and the genes are recessive, but then there must be hell of a lot VSH genes in wild flying drones, because the VSH qualities will only be halved in each generation

Either way it is good news for all of us wanting to breed VSH bees. It is much, much easier, than often said on this forum. 

Don´t worry about odd chances.



JWChesnut said:


> Say you have a 20% favorable drone population (for alleles at any particular loci) and the queen has 85% favorable alleles. For a genetic system based on 20 loci, the likelihood or retaining the same "additive" r value phenotype as the queen mother in F1 for a fertilized egg is 4 chances in 1,000,000,000,000,000


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## mike bispham

Juhani Lunden said:


> As a conclusion I would say, that if Bob Danka
> a) has it right, then the genes affecting VSH are not recessive, but additive
> b) has it wrong, and the genes are recessive, but then there must be hell of a lot VSH genes in wild flying drones, because the VSH qualities will only be halved in each generation
> 
> Either way it is good news for all of us wanting to breed VSH bees. It is much, much easier, than often said on this forum.
> 
> Don´t worry about odd chances.


It works. That's all you need to know. Just figure out how to make it work in your circumstances.

Of those many (additive) genes controlling vhs, some will likely be recessive, some dominant. Its the totality of what causes the behaviours that matters - which is why its better to talk in terms of alleles - the collections that actually make things happen. 

As others have pointed out, you only need a proportion of patrilines to be vhs. (And there are other mite-defensive behaviours to be raised too.)

To stick with Eduardo's orginal question though: is there any way of getting those alleles, bourne on non-local bees, into a local population, without unduly hybridising?

I think that's quite a complex question. 

Mike (UK)


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## jonathan

mike bispham said:


> To stick with Eduardo's orginal question though: is there any way of getting those alleles, bourne on non-local bees, into a local population, without unduly hybridising?


The genes are already in any given population. There is no need to introduce them from outside.


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## mike bispham

jonathan said:


> The genes are already in any given population. There is no need to introduce them from outside.


Sure. But given that a choice must be made between home-raising the defenses and speding that effort with genetic material from elsewhere, the effects of taking the second path need to be evaluated.

As I say, I reckon that's a complex thing to do. 

I think the expert advice is: bring in some new material, but not too much, find local (probably feral) resistant material if you possible can; and use both within a systematic selection process that sets out to maximise resistance genes while maintaining local qualities, by boosting vhs (and other desirable behaviour) lines while culling the weakest. (Finding the weakest while systematically treating is perhaps the hard part....) 

That seems vague, but I think that's how I'd go in that position. I'd accept that there would be some hybridisation, but aim to recover ground in the longer term. 

Mike (UK)


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## AstroBee

mike bispham said:


> I think the proper response to Eduardo's central questions is: no, you cannot bring in vhs bees in sufficient amounts to make a real difference, without mongrelising your own bees.
> 
> But is is possible to raise resistance (via vsh _and other mechanisms_) within your own population.
> 
> Bringing in bees already vhs equipped will make things go faster, but if they're non locals they'll increase the hybrid nature of the result. The more you bring in the more that will occur.
> 
> As far as production is concerned that may not matter.



Not quite sure I understand your comments on hybridization. It seems like a given that any external genetics brought in will result in some form of hybridization of the local population. Isn't that his intended goal? It seems as you're suggesting that hybridization is a bad thing - perhaps I'm not understanding your comments? 

Regarding production, I gotta believe that any commercial beekeeper is fundamentally concerned with production. If I were making a living with bees (honey or pollination), production would be likely the top metric that I would be maximizing.


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## AstroBee

jonathan said:


> The genes are already in any given population. There is no need to introduce them from outside.


Perhaps you could sketch out a plan to achieve Eduardo's goals without introducing outside genetics. Of course this needs to be achievable outside his other duties as a commercial beekeeper.


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## mike bispham

AstroBee said:


> Not quite sure I understand your comments on hybridization. It seems like a given that any external genetics brought in will result in some form of hybridization of the local population. Isn't that his intended goal? It seems as you're suggesting that hybridization is a bad thing - perhaps I'm not understanding your comments?


I'd formed the impression that Eduardo would prefer to try to introduce vhs genes while maintaining as much as possible his local race. It seems to me that there is a tension between this aim and the goal of speedily effecting change while maintaining production. That's one of the things I had in mind when I suggested this was complex. 

One one hand you could bring in Kefus's vhs queens wholesale - and obliterate the local race. On the other you could edge up vhs from within the existing population. But that entails a lot more commitment in terms of time and effort, and the stronger possibility of loss of productivity. 



AstroBee said:


> Regarding production, I gotta believe that any commercial beekeeper is fundamentally concerned with production. If I were making a living with bees (honey or pollination), production would be likely the top metric that I would be maximizing.


That depends. You might take a long term view, and think you'd be best off with resistant bees - for all sorts of reasons. Then you might risk some loss of production in order to get there. You have to invest to succeed. That's basic to all businesses. Its just how you invest, and whether you think you can sacrifice more now for bigger gains later.

Mike (UK)


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## Dominic

mike bispham said:


> To stick with Eduardo's orginal question though: is there any way of getting those alleles, bourne on non-local bees, into a local population, without unduly hybridising?
> 
> I think that's quite a complex question.
> 
> Mike (UK)


Aggressive back-crossing. Take 100% VSH queens, mate them with local drone mother stock. Immediately graft from daughters, mate the grand-daughters will local drone mother stock. Repeat. As colonies grow and populations get replaced with the offspring of your crosses, test them. Cull the descendants of the queens that expressed low VSH, replace them.

Conduct multiple generations like this over a short period of time, always back-crossing VSH queens and their daughters to local stock, with progressive review, and you should end up with a population of queens that have almost 50% of the VSH genes, and very high (>90%, according to the number of crosses) percentage of genetics from your own stock. Once you are satisfied with these, then you start integrating them in your main selection program, and try to get back to high VSH expression.

Takes effort and some time, but if you want to integrate foreign alleles without undue genetic pollution, I believe that would be the best approach.


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## jonathan

AstroBee said:


> Perhaps you could sketch out a plan to achieve Eduardo's goals without introducing outside genetics. Of course this needs to be achievable outside his other duties as a commercial beekeeper.


Take accurate mite counts using sugar roll or alcohol wash. Keep records. Rear queens whatever method suits you from thriving colonies which have low mite counts. Use the daughter queens to replace queens in poor colonies with high mite counts. Treat as little as possible but do treat enough to avoid a major crash and catastrophic loss of colonies. No idea how long it is likely to take to make progress but this should move things in the right direction.

Spain and Portugal have their own unique local bee, Apis mellifera iberiensis and it would be a shame to lose this due to hybridisation. It's different in the US as none of the mellifera honeybees are native.


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## peterloringborst

> Not quite sure I understand your comments on hybridization.


That's OK. He doesn't understand it either, which is eminently clear to anyone who has followed his endless exposition on this topic _over the years._ He shows up in the middle of any topic on which he feels well versed and floods it with _uninformation_.


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## JRG13

I see a lot of confusion between hybridization and trait integration, you clearly want to define your purpose before undertaking your strategy.


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## mike bispham

peterloringborst said:


> That's OK. He doesn't understand it either, which is eminently clear to anyone who has followed his endless exposition on this topic _over the years._ He shows up in the middle of any topic on which he feels well versed and floods it with _uninformation_.


That's an invitation to a bunfight that will ruin a useful thread by the master of ad hominem. PLB has never, as far as I can tell, succeeded in overwintering a single hive without treatment.

Declined

Mike (UK) (With 61 untreated hives, 4th year)


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## mike bispham

While you are considering your options Eduardo, here are a some relevant links:

A Sustainable Approach to Controlling Honey Bee Diseases and Varroa Mites
Marla Spivak and Gary Reuter
http://www.sare.org/Learning-Center...ntrolling-Honey-Bee-Diseases-and-Varroa-Mites

Link to full article at the bottom of the page.

Has a good section on frozen brood testing

Extract re. recessive genes and drone input:

How is hygienic behavior inherited?
Hygienic behavior is a genetic trait. The work of Dr. Walter Rothenbuhler in the 1960s showed that it is a recessive trait, meaning that the queens and the majority of the drones she mates with must carry the hygienic genes for the workers in the colony to express the behavior [10]. However, modern genetic analysis is revealing that hygienic behavior is controlled by a number of genes in a complex way [11].

Important note about genetics 
If you purchase a hygienic queen, it is important to know if the majority of drones she mated with also came from hygienic colonies. If the queen did not mate with hygienic drones, the workers she produces will not express the behavior, and your colony will not be hygienic. To increase the chances that hygienic queens mate with hygienic drones, the drones in most of the surrounding apiaries must come from hygienic colonies. Ask your queen producer about his/her drone-producing colonies. Some queen producers, particularly from Minnesota, raise and mate hygienic queens in areas where the majority of drones are also hygienic.

John Kefuss, who you know:
http://survivorstockqueens.org/John Kefuss Keeping Bees That Keep Themselves.pdf

There are more links to useful sources at my links page:
http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/selected links.htm

Read the experts; ignore the naysaying trolls/amateur geneticists. 

This is about traditional husbandry methods, and the (not impossible) difficulties of evaluating for hygienic behaviours from within a treated population. Follow John Kefuss' advice: you don't need to know how it works; you just need to know that it works. 

Mike (UK)


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## jonathan

What do you mean exactly by 61 untreated hives 4th year?
Surely most of these are swarms you collected in 2014.
You said you had 27 hives in April



mike bispham said:


> Mike (UK) (With 61 untreated hives, 4th year)


From April


mike bispham said:


> Bernhard, I have 27 hives - do you think I don't do work with my bees!
> 
> Mike


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## AstroBee

mike bispham;1187374[COLOR=#A52A2A said:


> If the queen did not mate with hygienic drones, the workers she produces *will not express* the behavior, and your colony will not be hygienic. [/COLOR]


That statement seems inconsistent with much of the published data on VSH and hygienic traits.


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## Eduardo Gomes

mike bispham said:


> While you are considering your options Eduardo, here are a some relevant links:


I 'm assimilate all this information. It being any non convergent , some of it is also complex and all of it in a language that is not mine I will do this analysis with caution. Thank you to all.

However I found that some researchers are doing research at the University of Cordoba , Spain , regarding this feature .
I will contact the main researchers and whether the A.M. iberiensis lines already exist with stable VSH characteristics.
Though I have no doubt that I will prefer our local bee.


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## mike bispham

jonathan said:


> What do you mean exactly by 61 untreated hives 4th year?
> Surely most of these are swarms you collected in 2014.
> You said you had 27 hives in April


Yes I could have been clearer; 61 hives now; in my 4th year of non treatment. I agree it doesn't say much about the success or failure of the enterprise - they could all be this year's swarms and cut-outs. 15 or 20 are. But I have most of those that overwintered intact, and the rest are this year's nucs.

I just wanted a quick contrast with my attacker's position: little success at non-treatment and plenty of failure as far as I'm aware. 

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham

AstroBee said:


> That statement seems inconsistent with much of the published data on VSH and hygienic traits.


That's Spivak's/Reuter's quote, not mine: and I think its written in a simplified manner to be accessible to as many beekeepers as possible. 

Mike (UK)


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## Fusion_power

My view is that some of the genes involved in VSH are recessive but others are penetrant, meaning neither recessive or dominant but somewhere in between. It is necessary to maintain a good population of desirable drones because they are key to getting consistent results when breeding for resistance.

Until your breeding program reaches the point of total and complete elimination of susceptible genetics, it will yield inconsistent results. Let the susceptible colonies die (or requeen them) so that poor genetics are eliminated.

When getting started with resistant genetics, it is important to establish a sustainable population both in your apiary and in any feral colonies nearby. You can start with a single queen, but that won't be enough to build a long term population that is healthy and productive. Start simple. Get some mite tolerant genetics. Breed from them. Bring in more mite tolerant genetics. Select the best. Raise more queens. If necessary, push swarms into the feral population. Keep selecting for survival and production.

My experience with bees is limited to European and Mediterranean lines. I have strong evidence that Apis Mellifera Mellifera has a better than average level of tolerance. Italians tend to have lower levels of tolerance and Carniolans fall somewhere between Mellifera and Ligustica. If my memory is correct, John Kefuss is working with lines that are most closely related to the bees in Portugal. It would be worth the effort to get some of his queens if you can.


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## AstroBee

I quickly checked the Spivak reference prior to my comment in post #86 and couldn't find anything. Not sure which publication you're referencing. The statement you made is really quite different the anything that I've heard from experts and what I've experienced first hand.


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## Eduardo Gomes

Fusion_power said:


> My experience with bees is limited to European and Mediterranean lines. I have strong evidence that Apis Mellifera Mellifera has a better than average level of tolerance. Italians tend to have lower levels of tolerance and Carniolans fall somewhere between Mellifera and Ligustica. If my memory is correct, John Kefuss is working with lines that are most closely related to the bees in Portugal. It would be worth the effort to get some of his queens if you can.


I hope to still find VSH ​​lines in Spain . If not , I'll use lines as possible approximate the A. m. iberiensis . Line A. m .mellifera is for me , and for now , the second option. Thank you for you kind opinion.

I found this great article on the net with a review of the matter VSH in the US , which I has already started to analyze. I leave the reference for those who might be interested and do not know it — Breeding for resistance to Varroa destructor in North America*
Thomas E. Rinderer1, Jeffrey W. Harris1, Gregory J. Hunt2, Lilia I. de Guzman1


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## mike bispham

AstroBee said:


> I quickly checked the Spivak reference prior to my comment in post #86 and couldn't find anything. Not sure which publication you're referencing. The statement you made is really quite different the anything that I've heard from experts and what I've experienced first hand.


Its here, in Frequently Asked Questions:

http://www.sare.org/Learning-Center...Mites/Text-Version/Frequently-Asked-Questions

As I say, its rough and ready, simplified. To be accurate you have outline all the complications and talk in terms of probabilities, and that might not suit the intended readership.

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham

Eduardo Gomes said:


> I found this great article on the net with a review of the matter VSH in the US , which I has already started to analyze. I leave the reference for those who might be interested and do not know it — Breeding for resistance to Varroa destructor in North America*
> Thomas E. Rinderer1, Jeffrey W. Harris1, Gregory J. Hunt2, Lilia I. de Guzman1


There's also:

Breeding for resistance to Varroa destructor in Europe
Ralph Büchler, Stefan Berg and Yves Le Conte
http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/full_html/2010/03/m09147/m09147.html

Abstract
The rich variety of native honeybee subspecies and ecotypes in Europe offers a good genetic resource for selection towards Varroa resistance. There are some examples of mite resistance that have developed as a consequence of natural selection in wild and managed European populations. However, most colonies are influenced by selective breeding and are intensively managed, including the regular use of miticides. We describe all characters used in European breeding programs to test for Varroa resistance. Some of them (e.g., mite population growth, hygienic behavior) have been implemented in large-scale selection programs and significant selection effects have been achieved. Survival tests of pre-selected breeder colonies and drone selection under infestation pressure are new attempts to strengthen effects of natural selection within selective breeding programs. Some perspectives for future breeding activities are discussed.

7. PERSPECTIVES
⦁	Accustomed management techniques have to be revised. Regular and uniform treatments of bee populations with highly effective acaricides are in opposition to field selection for resistance. To support the spread of more resistant stock, beekeepers need to identify (through monitoring infestation level) and exclude highly susceptible colonies from further propagation. As soon as the individual infestation of a colony exceeds certain threshold levels colonies should either be destroyed, or treated and requeened to prevent domino effects. Preference of shorter brood rearing periods, acceptance of temporary breaks in brood rearing and complete brood removal once a season are some tools beekeepers can use to lower the population growth of Varroa and thus to reduce their dependence on the use of miticide treatments which mask the advantages of mite resistant stock.

It strikes me that that last (complete brood removal once a season) is no different to treating - with all the attendent disadvantages the authors have just described... otherwise sound.

Mike (UK)

PS: anyone curious about Peter Loring Borst's recent evaluation of my understanding of these things might want to compare the extracts above with the leading paragraphs of my essay published one year earlier - via the link at the bottom of my posts. They're all but identical. What that does is tell you just what kind of 'expert' PLB is in matters concerning genetic husbandry. The same goes for JW Chesnut. Ignore these amateur geneticists, who supply sciency sounding rationales for their own failures, and pay attention to the genetic husbandrymen who understand the nature of the problem - and are succeeding.


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## jonathan

Summarising from the links:

Kefuss is a skilled bee breeder producing several thousand queens per year and he did a PhD under Ruttner.
Kefuss allows for 'soft bond' for those who want to use minimal treatments.
Kefuss travelled around and incorporated genetics from different subspecies into his bees in a similar fashion to Brother Adam.
Kefuss invests a considerable amount of time carefully recording mite levels. He selects his breeder queens from the group with low mite counts and uses the daughters to requeen colonies with higher mite counts before they collapse.
Kefuss is working with Danny Weaver, who is doing DNA analysis to identify survivor stock.
Kefuss has a partner in S America which allows him to produce thousands of queens which are ready for early spring in Europe.
His breeder queens sell for 650 Euro.

Sounds like a well organised modus operandi.


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## Rader Sidetrack

mike bispham said:


> Ignore these amateur geneticists, who supply sciency sounding rationales for their own failures, and pay attention to the genetic husbandrymen who understand the nature of the problem - and are succeeding.


Keep in mind that Mike's _own _science analysis is highly flawed. For instance, how about this flagrant misrepresentation from Mike's own website ...



> It can be seen that modern beekeeping practice is the sole cause of the crisis affecting both wild and domestic bees. The solution lies in the hands of beekeepers and their regulators. Not only should stocks that need to be medicated in order to stay alive not be used for breeding, they should not either be allowed to send their sickly genes into the wild, where they undermine the process of natural selection that would otherwise allow feral bees recover their health.
> 
> http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/


"*Sole Cause*"?? Mike has acknowledged here on Beesource that landowner/farmer applied pesticides, and lack of forage availability, both contribute to the "crisis", and yet he is still trumpeting that "sole cause" falsehood on his website.


:gh:


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## Fusion_power

I might argue that modern beekeeping is what moved varroa into the worldwide honeybee population, therefore modern beekeeping (meaning moving bees from their natural habitat) is the cause of bee problems worldwide.

If we define modern beekeeping to mean using acaricides, then there is a definite link between treated bees and ongoing susceptibility. I think it was Marla Spivak who commented several years ago that the best thing beekeepers could do would be to stop treating for mites. Within a few years, there would be no susceptible bees left.

I'm in the camp that says we can keep bees sans treatments. It does take some adapting and there is a ton of selection work to be done.


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## jonathan

Fusion_power said:


> I'm in the camp that says we can keep bees sans treatments. It does take some adapting and there is a ton of selection work to be done.


I agree and there are probably various routes to get there. Most people, especially commercial beekeepers, cannot afford the initial huge losses of going treatment free so a step by step approach combined with science based methodology is probably the way forward. Those small scale beekeepers who want to go totally treatment free can take their chances but you only have to read the posts on Beesource and other forums to see how many get wiped out over and over again.


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## Michael Bush

>Those small scale beekeepers who want to go totally treatment free can take their chances but you only have to read the posts on Beesource and other forums to see how many get wiped out over and over again.

I talk to beekeepers all over the country and read several forums regularly. I would say some people treating get wiped out over and over again, along with some people who are not. All in all it appears to me to be the people treating who get wiped out more often... I know a lot of small scale beekeepers doing treatment free beekeeping and not getting wiped out at all...


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## clyderoad

MBush: "All in all it appears to me to be the people treating who get wiped out more often... I know a lot of small scale beekeepers doing treatment free beekeeping and not getting wiped out at all... "

what? you're kidding, right?


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## Eduardo Gomes

mike bispham said:


> Breeding for resistance to Varroa destructor in Europe
> Ralph Büchler, Stefan Berg and Yves Le Conte
> http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/full_html/2010/03/m09147/m09147.html


Thank you Mike. I will spend my next few days pretty busy at various tasks that give me immense pleasure : see my hives , sell my honey and study good research material . And reflect ...


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## mike bispham

clyderoad said:


> MBush: "All in all it appears to me to be the people treating who get wiped out more often... I know a lot of small scale beekeepers doing treatment free beekeeping and not getting wiped out at all... "
> 
> what? you're kidding, right?


The reason many aspiring tf beekeepers fail is simple ignorance of the realities of selective husbandry. What bothers me is the effort some subsequently go to find a sciency sounding rationale for a failure born of their own ignorance, and their relentless insistence on using it to assure all and sundry that tf is impossible.

Randy Oliver pins the real reason so many fail:

QUEENS FOR PENNIES

Randy Oliver

American Bee Journal, March 2014, 273-277

Page 273 only

I've been encouraged in recent rears by the number of beekeepers who appear 
to be successfully keeping locally-adapted stocks of bees without treatment 
for varroa. I am a strong supporter of their efforts, and see them as the 
wave of the future.

Unfortunate1y there is also great deal of confusion as to what 'treatment 
free' beekeeping really means.

Allow me to use an analogy to explain:

Dairymen prefer to keep Holstein cattle. Holsteins are thin-skinned. 
thoroughly domesticated cattle se1ected solely for milk production. Their 
normal care requires shelter, supplemental feeding. routine vaccinations. 
and treatment with antibiotics. If a dairyman turned his Holsteins out on 
the range to fend for themselves without care, and half of them died each 
year he would be accused of having committed animal neglect -- the failure 
to provide the basic care required for an animal to thrive.

Yet this is exactly what thousands of recreational beekeepers do every year. 
Under the misconception that they are practicing [sic] 'treatment free' 
beekeeping, they are in actuality simply neglecting their domesticated 
animals. The reason for this is that they are starting with commercial 
package bees -- bees akin to Holstein cattle, in that they are bred for high 
brood and honey production under standard management practices (notably mite 
management, but also supplemental feeding or antibiotic treatment if 
indicated). Most commercial bee stocks should be considered as domesticated 
animals. There is absolutely no reason to expect that your wishful thinking 
will miraculously transform your newly-purchased 'domesticated' bees into 
hardy survivor stock able to survive as wild animals without standard care 
and treatment.

Now don't get me wrong. I am no more criticizing the commercial queen 
producers than I would criticize the dedicated breeders of Holstein cattle. 
The queen breeders are producing the best breeds for beekeepers willing to 
provide their colonies with the 'standard' degree of husbandry (which 
includes at this time, treatment(s) of some sort for varroa). I have no 
problem whatsoever with that; but my crystal ball says that someday the 
market will dwindle for bees that require regular treatment for mite.

Do not disillusion yourself. Allowing domesticated package colonies to die 
year after year is not in any way, shape, or form a contribution to the 
breeding of mite-resistant stocks. There is a vast difference between 
breeding for survivor stock and simply allowing commercial bees to die from 
neglect! By introducing commercial bees year after year into an area, and 
then allowing those package colonies to first produce drones and then to 
later die from varroa, these well-meaning but misguided beekeepers screw up 
any evolutionary progress that the local feral populations might be making 
towards deve1pping natural resistance to varroa. Not only that, but those 
collapsing 'mite bombs' create problems for your neighbors. Referring to 
yourself as a beekeeper confers upon you a responsibility to the local 
beekeeping community. Allowing hives to collapse from AFB or varroa makes 
you a disease-spreading nuisance!

A SOLUTION

Enough scolding. I strongly support those willing to actually practice [sic] 
selective breeding for treatment-free (or minimal treatment) locally-adapted 
stocks of bees. But let me be frank (try to stop me); if you start your hive 
with commercial stock, then by all means care for them as domesticated 
animals! If you want to go treatment free then start with survivor stock 
bred to be naturally resistant to mites and viruses, such as VSH, Russian, 
or locally-adapted ferals. Do not kid yourself into thinking that allowing 
innocent domesticated bees to die a slow and ugly death is the same thing as 
breeding for survivor stock -- 'breeding' instead means the propagation of 
bees that don't die -- the key word bring propagation. And this is a 
frustration for many well-intentioned beginners -- no one in their area is 
propagating survivor stock for sale. That is why wrote this article.

To me, it is a crime against nature not to breed daughters from that 
fantastic survivor colony. But most beekeepers think that it is beyond their 
scope of ability to raise queens. Nonsense! Let me show you how to raise 
about 10 queens at a time for pennies apiece. This is not the way we do it 
commercially, but this method can be easily practiced by most anyone.

The rest of this article (4 pages) is an illustrated guide to artificial 
queen breeding.

Mike (UK)


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## Eduardo Gomes

"Since Varroa destructor began spreading throughout Europe, the beekeeping industry has had to face a new situation. The regular use of chemical treatments has been accompanied by several disadvantages, such as high costs and labor, residues in bee products, and the selection of mites resistant to acaricides. However, repeated high colony losses due to varroosis could not be prevented. Consequently, *research on mite resistance of honey bees started in the 1980s and continues to receive a large amount of scientific interest and practical attention in Europe.*" Breeding for resistance to Varroa destructor in Europe*Ralph Büchler1, Stefan Berg2 and Yves Le Conte3

As far as I know this research is practically zero in Portugal .

"*The AGT publishes an annual breeding register* with the breeding values of all tested colonies, providing a comprehensive overview over the whole population and stimulating the exchange and propagation of valuable stock."

This register is made ​​public ? Can be consulted ? It is written in what language ?


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## squarepeg

Eduardo Gomes said:


> As far as I know this research is practically zero in Portugal .


perhaps a niche needing to be filled, perhaps by you eduardo? perhaps there are others in portugal like yourself eager for such a product and waiting for someone to pioneer it?


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## mike bispham

Eduardo Gomes said:


> "*The AGT publishes an annual breeding register* with the breeding values of all tested colonies, providing a comprehensive overview over the whole population and stimulating the exchange and propagation of valuable stock."
> 
> This register is made ​​public ? Can be consulted ? It is written in what language ?


Look over their website Eduardo:

http://www.toleranzzucht.de/en/home/the-association-of-tolerance-breeding/

"ASSOCIATION OF TOLERANCE BREEDING (AGT)

Effective selection within a large population is a prerequisite for sustainable breeding success!

To reach this aim, many breeders and performance testers have joined the Association of tolerance breeding (AGT). We share the goal of breeding highly productive honey bees with improved resistance against varroosis. We have agreed to use standardized criteria of performance testing that are based on scientific methods. In addition to the general practice of performance testing, we also evaluate characters related to varrosis tolerance and vitality of the bee population.

The AGT was founded in 2003 and forms an independent organization within the German Beekeeping Association (DIB). From all over Germany and the neighbouring countries, its members are organized in regional subgroups, thus facilitating mutual sharing of information and exchanging of experience. The regional groups also organize the registration of assessment data, circular exchange of queens, and insemination workshops.

The aim of all these activities is the selection of extraordinary high-quality breeder colonies based on objective criteria!"

There is an impressive number of breeders, and they look well organised. As well as queens they offer tolerance mating stations.

Lots to read, in German, some in English translations, French and Dutch. You have to be a member to get to the detailed info. I wonder what the fees and conditions are ...? I'd guess you'd need to be a member to be able to access the tolerance mating stations.

Mike (UK)


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## scituatema

You must be in a very rich nectar area too, right ?


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## Eduardo Gomes

squarepeg said:


> perhaps a niche needing to be filled, perhaps by you eduardo? perhaps there are others in portugal like yourself eager for such a product and waiting for someone to pioneer it?


You're right ! It is a niche that can and should be exploited by someone in Portugal and / or Spain. Who knows if for me. It is tempting !


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## squarepeg

it's worth considering eduardo, and it sounds like you're doing a good job researching the possibility.


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## Michael Bush

>what? you're kidding, right?

Of course I'm not.


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## Ralf_H

Hi!


mike bispham said:


> Look over their website Eduardo:
> 
> http://www.toleranzzucht.de/en/home/the-association-of-tolerance-breeding/
> 
> "ASSOCIATION OF TOLERANCE BREEDING (AGT)
> 
> ...
> Mike (UK)


As far as I know the AGT-breeder mainly use the carniolan bee which may not be good adapted to the portuguese climate. Scientists from the University of Cordoba had a breeding-program for varroa-resistance with A.m. iberiensis, perhaps they can help you out:
http://www.uco.es/dptos/zoologia/Apicultura/trabajos_libros/2011_Breeding%20Tolerant%20Honey%20Bees.pdf

Ralf


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## Eduardo Gomes

Ralf_H said:


> As far as I know the AGT-breeder mainly use the carniolan bee which may not be good adapted to the portuguese climate. Scientists from the University of Cordoba had a breeding-program for varroa-resistance with A.m. iberiensis, perhaps they can help you out:


Thank you Ralf.
I've contacted the staff of Cordoba a few days ago by email . Do not tell me anything so far .
If necessary I put on my way and I'll go knock on their door .


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## Eduardo Gomes

"_The 117 colonies were started as artificial swarms (1.6 kg) with 270 Varroa each and were maintained according to normal management practices but without any treatment against Varroa. At the end of the experiment most of the colonies had died, with only 15 colonies still alive_". (after 2,5 years) from Breeding for resistance to Varroa destructor in Europe*

Give me a lot to think. But stop to think is not the same as stopping to give up!
Make a pilot study/experience??


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## mike bispham

Eduardo Gomes said:


> "_The 117 colonies were started as artificial swarms (1.6 kg) with 270 Varroa each and were maintained according to normal management practices but without any treatment against Varroa. At the end of the experiment most of the colonies had died, with only 15 colonies still alive_". (after 2,5 years) from Breeding for resistance to Varroa destructor in Europe*


Eduardo,

This was in Unije, Croatia, and written up in 2001.

"6. EFFICIENCY REVIEW OF EUROPEAN SELECTION ON MITE RESISTANCE

6.1. Survivability of selected and unselected European honeybee from different origins

To survey the success of selection programs for Varroa resistance, 14 European strains of bees were compared on an isolated Adriatic island (Unije, Croatia) over a period of 2.5 years (Berg et al., 2001; Büchler et al., 2002). Seven strains originated from selection programs for resistance to V. destructor (Carniolan n = 5; Buckfast n = 1; hybrid n = 1), and the other seven were unselected strains (Carniolan n = 5; Buckfast n = 1, Ligustica n = 1). The 117 colonies were started as artificial swarms (1.6 kg) with 270 Varroa each and were maintained according to normal management practices but without any treatment against Varroa.

At the end of the experiment most of the colonies had died, with only 15 colonies still alive. While in the first year colony losses mainly were attributed to difficulties in adaptation to the specific local conditions on the island (hot and dry summer, strong winds), colony losses in 2001 and 2002 were predominantly caused by varroosis.

There were distinct differences in the survivability of the different strains of bees (ANOVA, P < 0.05), with the colonies originating from selection programs showing a significantly higher proportion of surviving colonies (11 out of 63 colonies) compared to the unselected ones (4 out of 54 colonies; Wilcoxon, P < 0.01). However, the higher survivability rate of colonies from selected strains could not be correlated to differences in the relative natural mite mortality (mite mortality/1000 bees), the number of damaged mites in the natural mite fall, hygienic behavior (pin-killed brood test), or the infertility rate of Varroa in worker brood. Nevertheless, from the second year on, the selected strains had significantly stronger colonies compared to the unselected strains (all Wilcoxon, P < 0.05). The higher colony strength and better survival rate convincingly demonstrate the advantages of the strains selected for Varroa resistance, compared to the unselected strains."

That last point is valuable. Its also worth noting that a lot of progress has been made since that time, both in breeding efforts and by natural selection. Also, that it seems likely that the failing hives carried a lot of varroa into the rest. Quite a severe 'Bond Test'. I'd be interested to know what happened to the survivors...



Eduardo Gomes said:


> Give me a lot to think. But stop to think is not the same as stopping to give up!
> Make a pilot study/experience??


I think its a case of developing monitoring/assay skills, then introduce vhs/broad hygienic/survivor blood; at the same time reduce treatment to expose the weakest... Also develop a scoring susyem to identify most likely queens, increase only from them, replacing the weakest first...

A systematic effort to raise vhs/treament-free productivity without sacrificing crop. 'Soft Bond' in Kefuss' terms.

I agree there's a lot to think about, and I think its a fairly complex problem. I regularly try to update and improve my plans with the help of sketched flow-charts, diagrams etc. Its too much to hold in my mind and look at in one go, and I have to get it on a single piece of paper. That's just the way I work.

Mike (UK)


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## Eduardo Gomes

Yes I agree with you Mike . The approach has to be done , I believe deeply in it, and has to be made inspired by the methodology "soft bond" of Kefuss .

I can not go to crazy for a solution of all or nothing , I will do the pilot study, in a more isolated apiary with 20 or 30 VSH hives.
At this time still waiting for my spanish brothers from Cordoba Institute tell me anything. They will walk to do siestas too long?  Just kidding , it is surely staff of the highest professionalism.


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## Eduardo Gomes

Can you confirm if that technique "moonlight mated" is being used with other strains beyond buckfast? (see more here http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...t-owning-an-island-mondscheinbegattung-method)
Could be a way for me in order to sidestep the issue of hybridization of VSH lines in Portugal.


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## Snowhitsky

Eduardo Gomes said:


> At this time still waiting for my spanish brothers from Cordoba Institute tell me anything. They will walk to do siestas too long?  Just kidding , it is surely staff of the highest professionalism.


By the looks of it, the Cordoba Institute hives have been stolen:

http://apiculturaiberica.com/index....as-seleccionadas-de-la-universidad-de-cordoba


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## Eduardo Gomes

Snowhitsky said:


> By the looks of it, the Cordoba Institute hives have been stolen:
> 
> http://apiculturaiberica.com/index....as-seleccionadas-de-la-universidad-de-cordoba


I can not believe . It's so bad. I am very sad. It is as if I had been robbed. Are six years of lost work and 6 more to reach where they were. Hijos da ****


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## Ralf_H

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Can you confirm if that technique "moonlight mated" is being used with other strains beyond buckfast?
> ...


The breeder of the dark european honey bee Apis mellifera mellifera in Germany use this technique:
http://www.dunklebienen.de/?page_id=1449
Ralf


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## Eduardo Gomes

Thank you Ralf!
My German has seen better days . Can you tell me if beekeeper is to carry out the technique? Does he tells the hour? It is still day as we can see in the video.


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## Ralf_H

Hi Eduardo,
here is an article on this theme:
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/101/3/334.full
In german it is called the Köhler'sches Verfahren or Mondscheinbegattung, in english CFTM= controlled flight time mating.
Queens and drones are allowed to fly after 5pm. 
Ralf


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## mike bispham

Ralf_H said:


> Hi Eduardo, here is an article on this theme:
> http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/101/3/334.full In german it is called the Köhler'sches Verfahren or Mondscheinbegattung, in english CFTM= controlled flight time mating. Queens and drones are allowed to fly after 5pm.
> Ralf


Marvellous, thanks both of you for turning this up!

Mike (UK)


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## Eduardo Gomes

Cool Ralf!
I'll see carefully the procedures used.
I've send an e-mail some days ago to Mr. Josef Koller who is breeding for VSH. Do you think he's the same person? 

"_Honeybee traits of interest to beekeepers have been shown to be of medium to high heritability (Collins et al. 1984; Oldroyd et al. 1987; Bienefeld and Pirchner 1990) and therefore capable of responding to selection. However, when only 25% of selected drones contribute to offspring in a standard open mating situation, the selection differential is significantly reduced. By using the Horner system, a 48% increase in the selection differential can be achieved, leading to substantial gains in trait improvement, when incorporated into a selective breeding program. As the Horner system does not require using isolated mating stations, instrumental insemination, or large numbers of colonies, the system is very appropriate for commercial bee breeding, providing excellent control of mating and large numbers of selected naturally mated queens._" in Genetic Evaluation of a Novel System for Controlled Mating of the Honeybee, Apis mellifera
Peter R. Oxley, Pantip Hinhumpatch, Rosalyn Gloag and Benjamin P. Oldroyd; 2009.


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## Ralf_H

Hi Eduardo,
as far as I know, Mr. Köhler was a Priest who invented the procedure about 150 years ago.
Josef Koller is a Buckfast-, Primorski(Russian)- and Elgon-Breeder who uses CFTM.
http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_KK_2013.html
Ralf


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## mike bispham

Ralf_H said:


> Hi Eduardo,
> as far as I know, Mr. Köhler was a Priest who invented the procedure about 150 years ago.
> Josef Koller is a Buckfast-, Primorski(Russian)- and Elgon-Breeder who uses CFTM.
> http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_KK_2013.html
> Ralf


Does anybody know if the buckfasteers are making systematic efforts to raise resistance to varroa? Jointly or individually?

I ask because an apiary near me uses Buckfasts, buying in breeder queens every year. 

Mike (UK)


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## Ralf_H

Hello Mike,
in the Arista Bee Research project there are mainly Buckfast-Breeder involved:
http://aristabeeresearch.org
Ralf


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## Eduardo Gomes

Ralf_H said:


> as far as I know, Mr. Köhler was a Priest who invented the procedure about 150 years ago.
> Josef Koller is a Buckfast-, Primorski(Russian)- and Elgon-Breeder who uses CFTM.


Ok, thank you!
Mike as I understand Mr. Paul Jungels is also introducing VSH lines in its breeding program with buckfast.

"_Aim of the selective breeder
There is no doubt. We have to achieve productive colonies which maintain themselves without the slightest treatment or manipulation." _by Paul Jungels in http://www.pedigreeapis.org/biblio/artcl/PJevalua01en.html


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## mike bispham

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Ok, thank you!
> Mike as I understand Mr. Paul Jungels is also introducing VSH lines in its breeding program with buckfast.
> 
> "_Aim of the selective breeder
> There is no doubt. We have to achieve productive colonies which maintain themselves without the slightest treatment or manipulation." _by Paul Jungels in http://www.pedigreeapis.org/biblio/artcl/PJevalua01en.html


Thanks Ralf. I guess my question now is: do Buckfast breeders all have these aims? Or do some just turn out 'domesticated' (treatment-dependent) Buckfasts without a care as to self-sufficiency?

What does knowing my nearby breeder uses Buckfasts tell me about the sort of influence his bees will have on mine with respect to varroa resistance?

Mike (UK)


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## Rolande

mike bispham said:


> What does knowing my nearby breeder uses Buckfasts tell me about the sort of influence his bees will have on mine with respect to varroa resistance?


In itself, nothing. Why not contact him and have a chat -he may even be interested in incorporating your treatment free strain into his breeding programme.


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## mike bispham

Rolande said:


> In itself, nothing. Why not contact him and have a chat -he may even be interested in incorporating your treatment free strain into his breeding programme.


There could equally be a bad outcome Roland. As it happens I'm in the process of moving all my hives to a new site, so its moot now I guess anyway. I was just curious.

Mike (UK)


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## jonathan

mike bispham said:


> There could equally be a bad outcome Roland. As it happens I'm in the process of moving all my hives to a new site, so its moot now I guess anyway. I was just curious.
> 
> Mike (UK)


Why are you moving them?


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## mike bispham

jonathan said:


> Why are you moving them?


The opportunity to occupy a site within about 200 acres of mixed topfuit, adjacent to a large country park estate. Lots of very useful nectar sources on a large scale. Closer to home, and I'm being paid for pollination. The owner is very interested in wildlife matters, and I think I'll be able to do a lot of good work there.

Only worry (apart from the usual) is the possibility of pesticide problems, but I'm talking to all parties. I'm planning to make lots of new colonies in early summer to restock my old apiary and the best of the outstands.

That'll give me two separate populations, one on working conditions, one away from farms. 

Mike (UK)


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## Eduardo Gomes

JRG13 said:


> I see a lot of confusion between hybridization and trait integration, you clearly want to define your purpose before undertaking your strategy.


I was re-reading this thread to make a summary and compile a set of suggestions for my plan. And this post from JRG13 caught my attention for a simple reason: I don't know what is the difference between hybridization and trait integration. JRG13, or other companion, if you can help me i appreciate it.


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## jonathan

mike bispham said:


> The opportunity to occupy a site within about 200 acres of mixed topfuit, adjacent to a large country park estate. Lots of very useful nectar sources on a large scale. Closer to home, and I'm being paid for pollination.
> Mike (UK)


How is the pollination work going? What can you charge for renting out your colonies in your area?


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## mike bispham

jonathan said:


> How is the pollination work going? What can you charge for renting out your colonies in your area?


I'm just finishing on Cherries. I have a scheme arranged with the farmer whereby I'm paid on colony size - thus performance. It varies between £15 and £50, and get to keep my hives on a good site all year round - though I can take them off other times if I want to. 

Performance this year is very varied. I haven't calculated yet but out of 52 surviving maybe 10 will be in the bottom class, 8 in the top; the rest in between. It'll probably average £25-30 a hive - not very good but its my first year. The farmer is pleased with the pollination anyway, but how much my bees did and how much the wild bees did neither of us has much of a clue. We're both keen to build both populations year on year. 

Mike (UK)


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## jonathan

Sounds like a good set up if there is decent forage in the area other than the fruit bloom.


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## mike bispham

jonathan said:


> Sounds like a good set up if there is decent forage in the area other than the fruit bloom.


Its good Jonathan. Apples are just coming on. I don't know yet how long they'll last - there are lots of them, but they might all be early blossoming varieties. Its a large estate, owned by 3 generations of beekeeper. I'm on the edge of extensive orchard, parkland and Chestnut coppice. There's Rape, Lime, Sweet Chestnut, White Clover, wildflowers and more. No beans this year! Fingers crossed I'll be able to get a good operation going from here.

On another topic: I've seen 3 three of my known feral colonies already this year, all a decent size and bringing in lots of pollen, and I'll be removing two from a garage roof next week that I looked at last year. So far that's no winter losses in the feral dept, and all these are in their second or third year by my own eye.

Mike (UK)


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## Daniel Y

mike bispham said:


> Treatment as a managemet method achives the precise opposite. The result is perpetual dependence.
> 
> 
> Mike (UK)


How is it then that feral hives could possibly be a source of continued varroa infestation? Isn't the feral hive the ultimate unmanaged colony? Are they possibly the ultimate evidence that this do not treat thing does not in fact work? I understand that they are probably from recently managed colonies. but that again is evidence that unmanaged untreated colonies do not survive. From what I can tell treating does not develop dependency. treating leads to the only colonies capable of surviving at all.


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## mike bispham

Daniel Y said:


> How is it then that feral hives could possibly be a source of continued varroa infestation?


First, that's a) a scare story, b) likely true to some extent - dependent on the resistance of the feral colonies. 



Daniel Y said:


> Isn't the feral hive the ultimate unmanaged colony?


Yes



Daniel Y said:


> Are they possibly the ultimate evidence that this do not treat thing does not in fact work?


How so?



Daniel Y said:


> I understand that they are probably from recently managed colonies.


Sometimes. Other times not so much. Other times not at all. You can't generalise.



Daniel Y said:


> but that again is evidence that unmanaged untreated colonies do not survive.


How so?



Daniel Y said:


> From what I can tell treating does not develop dependency. treating leads to the only colonies capable of surviving at all.


I should read up a little Daniel. Try to understand the mechanisms whereby natural selection maintains health, and breeding copies natural selection to achieve the same thing. Only when you have a good grasp of those things will you understand what it is you wish to understand.

Mike (UK)


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## Rader Sidetrack

mike bispham said:


> Try to understand the mechanisms whereby natural selection maintains health, and breeding copies natural selection to achieve the same thing.


So, natural selection "maintains health", according to Mike? Does that only work for _apis mellifera_, or does that work for other species as well? If that is _really_ true, then how is it that so many species have become extinct? :scratch: :s


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## mike bispham

Rader Sidetrack said:


> So, natural selection "maintains health", according to Mike? Does that only work for _apis mellifera_, or does that work for other species as well? If that is _really_ true, then how is it that so many species have become extinct? :scratch: :s


You can argue with Ruttner:


""Queen breeding ranks as the most important activity in the efficient management of an apiary: by it, the apiarist [...] advances from being a Beekeeper to a being a Beebreeder."

"Breeding is by no means a human invention. Nature, which in millions of years
has bought forth this immense diversity of wonderfully adapted creatures, is the
greatest breeder. It is from her that the present day breeder learnt how it must
be done, excessive production and then ruthless selection, permitting only the
most suitable to survive and eliminating the inferior." 

Friedrich Ruttner,
Breeding Techniques and Selection for Breeding of the Honeybee, pg 45


... or any queen breeder who's ever lived, or any evolutionary biologist, or anyone in the least bit familiar with the work of Charles Darwin. 

I'm not going to try to argue with you. Been there too often

Mike (UK)


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## Rader Sidetrack

So you have _live _dinosaurs in your area, Mike? :scratch:  :s

I doubt that you do do, so the point is that that 'natural selection' is _NOT _biased towards "maintaining health" of a species, as you claimed.






> I should read up a little Daniel. Try to understand the mechanisms ...


Take your own advice, Mike. 

:gh:


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## mike bispham

Rader Sidetrack said:


> So you have _live _dinosaurs in your area, Mike? :scratch:  :s


Don't you think that those dinosours who were better at maintaining their health might have lived longer, been stronger, mated more frequently, and had stronger offspring than their cousins who had bad health?

Don't you think those offspring might have inherited some of their health-giving genes?

This is terribly elementary Graham. You really need to try to get to grips with the basic of natural selection

Or consider this: I have 50 odd hives of never treated bees. Many are booming. How many do you have?

If you've bought resistant queens how do you think the breeders made them resistant?

This whole topic thread is _based_ on the premise that vsh traits are heritable. That when passed on they pass on the same resistance. 

What do you think happens in the wild? Do you think that when resistant bees mate there is no greater chance of their offspring gaining resistance than if they came from completely unresistant parents? 

Do you think that resistant bees in the wild don't tend to live longer, be stronger _pass on their genes more often_ than unresistant bees? 

Do you think all breeding for health is a waste of time?

Just what is going on in your head?

Mike (UK)

ps I know, I said I wouldn't....


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## Michael Bush

>From what I can tell treating does not develop dependency. treating leads to the only colonies capable of surviving at all.

Yet Dr. Seeley who has been tracking the feral bees in Arnot forest says the density is the same today as when he first did a survey in the 70s... so apparently that is not true. The rest of us who catch feral swarms and do cutouts see feral survivors all the time. I know thousands of treatment free beekeepers many of whom have not treated in a decade or more. So they DO survive.


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## Barry

Michael Bush said:


> I know thousands of treatment free beekeepers many of whom have not treated in a decade or more.


You know, or you know of?


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## Rader Sidetrack

mike bispham said:


> What do you think happens in the wild? Do you think that when resistant bees mate there is no greater chance of their offspring gaining resistance than if they came from completely unresistant parents?


Mike, you seem to be using the terms 'natural selection' and 'breeding' (as performed by a beekeeper) as interchangeable terms. They are NOT the same concept.

This is your earlier statement that I was responding to ...


> Try to understand the mechanisms whereby natural selection maintains health, and breeding copies natural selection to achieve the same thing.


'Natural selection' is essentially _random_ variations. Some variants will allow adaptation, and some will not. Natural selection is not planned, and the implications for a given species do NOT "maintain health" of a species. *If that were true then dinosaurs and all the other extinct species would still be around.*


What you as a beekeeper do in terms of breeding may or may not "maintain health" of the bees you are breeding, but it is *not* "natural selection".


:gh:


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## mike bispham

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Mike, you seem to be using the terms 'natural selection' and 'breeding' (as performed by a beekeeper) as interchangeable terms. They are NOT the same concept.
> 
> This is your earlier statement that I was responding to ...
> 
> 'Natural selection' is essentially _random_ variations. Some variants will allow adaptation, and some will not. Natural selection is not planned, and the implications for a given species do NOT "maintain health" of a species. *If that were true then dinosaurs and all the other extinct species would still be around.*
> 
> 
> What you as a beekeeper do in terms of breeding may or may not "maintain health" of the bees you are breeding, but it is *not* "natural selection".
> 
> 
> :gh:


First lets clear something up: the dinosaurs, along with most other species around at that time, were driven to extinction by extraordinarily violent conditions resulting from a meteor strike and resultant massive volcanic activity. Small burrowing early mammals happened to be equipped to survive the event and its aftermath, and it is their line that repopulated the dry land. (Though a few dinosaurs are still about today). I think such mass extinctions happened on several occasions.

You write: "'Natural selection' is essentially _random_ variations."

No. or rather, that is part of the story. Natural selection is something that occurs on many different levels, and many many different timescales. What you are looking at there is an explanation of one of the causes of speciation. And you are looking at two different aspects of speciation: a) mutations, and b) random variations.

Talking for a moment about speciation by mutation (part of the explanation for how different species come to be):

In any population there is already variation. Think of humans, even just your community, or your family. You are all different. That variation is there because the chances of the same sets of genes coming down to two children are inconceivably high.

Further variation occurs at time when mutations are cause by disruption to the genetic codes. very (very) occasionally) such disruption result in a feature that is advantageous.

So: given that, for both those reasons (primarily the first) individuals are different (vary), not all individuals in any population, at any time, are as strong, or healthy as others.

Forgive the underlining: that is the important line.

Because of this variation some individuals are 'better fitted' to their environment than others. We can, in the normal day to day context, equate that 'fitness' with 'health'. They have whatever-it-takes to be strong, in that environment, now. They are the one that tend to thrive, while others don't, purely as a result of having genes that work well at that time and in that place.

Other individuals are less well fitted (healthy). This might be for any of a thousand genetically-based reasons. 

*And now natural selection goes to work on that variation*: 

...those that are best suited to their environment (healthiest, most vigourous) tend to have more offspring than the rest.

... those that are least well fitted tend to die.

...the rest in the middle have more offspring according to how well fitted they are.

SO: _each new generation is made up predominantly of the offspring of the best fitted - the most vigourous, the strongest.

That part is natural 'selection' for the fittest strains". Nature 'selects' those genes that do best. 

(Yes, 'selection' here is analogical usage. Nature cannot deliberate. The whole business just occurs as a result of the way things unfold of their own accord.) 

This is then not an explanation of how different species come to be (through natural selection for the fittest strains), but is an explanation of how health is maintained in populations ... through ... natural 'selection' for the fittest strains).

Nature tends to make each new generation from the best of the last. Does that sound familiar? Isn't that what breeders do?

The mechanism/s of natural selection for the fittest strains explains BOTH speciation and health and vitality maintenance. And the two explanations overlap. 

Go back now to your criticism of my stance:



Rader Sidetrack said:


> ...you seem to be using the terms 'natural selection' and 'breeding' (as performed by a beekeeper) as interchangeable terms. They are NOT the same concept.


And now read Ruttner again:

"Breeding is by no means a human invention. Nature, which in millions of years
has bought forth this immense diversity of wonderfully adapted creatures, is the
greatest breeder. It is from her that the present day breeder learnt how it must
be done, excessive production and then ruthless selection, permitting only the
most suitable to survive and eliminating the inferior." 

The two processes are all but identical. One has the element of deliberation; the other does not - it is 'natural'. But the mechanism is the same. *When each population is made from the strongest of the last, that supplies the best likelihood -by far- that he offspring will also be well fitted*. 

Now: stop that process happening and the opposite of heath emerges - quickly. Either natural selection, or deliberate breeding toward health and vitality must occur in order to maintain health and vitality.

If you make new pigs only from the runts of the litter pretty soon you'll be out of business.

All these ideas work on the same fundamental principle. Husbandry must, like nature must, breed only from the best in order to have the best chance or surviving and thriving.

The explanation of natural selection for the fittest strains explains...

* How species arise

* How populations gain and maintain fitness and vitality

* Why breeding works to promote health and vitality

* Why the biblical and medieval rule "put only best to best" ensured pre-veterinary husbandry was for the most part highly successful

* How domesticated strains of plant and animal came to be.

* And probably more things that I haven't thought of.

* Why Charles Darwin has such a honoured place in the history of science and biology 

Mike (UK)


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## Rader Sidetrack

mike bispham said:


> First lets clear something up: the dinosaurs, along with most other species around at that time, were driven to extinction by extraordinarily violent conditions resulting from a meteor strike and resultant massive volcanic activity.


You can deny that that natural selection is the cause of the dinosaurs demise if you like, I certainly don't mind. 

Dinosaurs was just a single example. There are plenty of species that have gone extinct in more recent times, and not from meteorite activity. You can see a list of some of them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_extinctions

Natural selection certainly _didn't _"maintain health" for those species. 


But I have confidence that you can manufacture some excuses as to why those extinctions don't apply either, Mike.


:gh:


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## Michael Bush

>You know, or you know of?

We can define things a lot of different ways. That I have met in person. Yes. That I am on close personal terms with? No. I meet several dozen new ones about every other weekend on average and have for more than a decade. That is not counting all the ones emailing me and that I know of on forums and lists.


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## mike bispham

Rader Sidetrack said:


> You can deny that that natural selection is the cause of the dinosaurs demise if you like, I certainly don't mind.
> 
> Dinosaurs was just a single example. There are plenty of species that have gone extinct in more recent times, and not from meteorite activity. You can see a list of some of them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_extinctions
> 
> Natural selection certainly _didn't _"maintain health" for those species.
> 
> 
> But I have confidence that you can manufacture some excuses as to why those extinctions don't apply either, Mike.
> 
> 
> :gh:


You're just not going to bother thinking about it Graham are you? Did you even bother reading it?

Not to worry. Every time I write it I understand something a little better, and others with more energy than you get the opportunity read it and make what sense of it they will. 

Mike (UK)


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## Barry

Michael Bush said:


> >You know, or you know of?
> 
> We can define things a lot of different ways.


I agree, that's why I asked for clarification. It's one thing to say you have firsthand knowledge of these thousands of beekeepers that claim they have not treated in a decade or more, but another to go strictly on a broad "no treatment" statement they may have made. As we all have seen here, "no treatments" is far from a universal understanding to its definition.


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## Rader Sidetrack

mike bispham said:


> Every time I write it I understand something a little better, and others with more energy than you get the opportunity read it and make what sense of it they will.


Understanding what _you _write yourself is certainly a _remarkable _achievement, Mike.



Now that you have that understanding, perhaps you could explain, in your view, how all the species on this list are extinct. I'm particularly missing how natural selection '_maintained health_' for those extinct species. 


:gh:


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## mike bispham

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Understanding what _you _write yourself is certainly a _remarkable _achievement, Mike.


Writing out your ideas, especially trying to find ways to explain them to people who are having trouble understanding, is a very good way to learn more more about your own understanding. for example, while writing for you I understood better that the multifaceted nature of natural selection was causing you problems, and that I had to untangle that, to separate speciation from ongoing health maintenance, to help you understand the relation between natural selection and population health. Thanks for the opportunity.



Rader Sidetrack said:


> Now that you have that understanding, perhaps you could explain, in your view, how all the species on this list are extinct. I'm particularly missing how natural selection '_maintained health_' for those extinct species.
> 
> 
> :gh:


Are you saying that because some species have become extinct there is no such thing as natural selection?

Are you saying that natural selection doesn't maintain health in those species that are not extinct? 

Or do you agree that natural selection maintains health (in non-extinct) species (until such time as they might become extinct)? 

Just what are you saying? That natural selection doesn't prevent species from becoming extinct? Did anyone claim it did? 

Mike (UK)


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## Rader Sidetrack

Mike, I suggest you go back to post #139, where your original quote and my comments are. That post and my succeeding posts all about that one issue.


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## mike bispham

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Understanding what _you _write yourself is certainly a _remarkable _achievement, Mike.


Barry this is surely ill-mannered, inflammatory and offensive. Letting it pass gives the signal that its ok to be gratuitously derogatory, and to systematically ridicule, and encourages others to join in.

BTW I tried pm -ing you and your box was full.

Best wishes,

Mike


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## mike bispham

Michael Bush said:


> >From what I can tell treating does not develop dependency. treating leads to the only colonies capable of surviving at all.
> 
> Yet Dr. Seeley who has been tracking the feral bees in Arnot forest says the density is the same today as when he first did a survey in the 70s... so apparently that is not true. The rest of us who catch feral swarms and do cutouts see feral survivors all the time. I know thousands of treatment free beekeepers many of whom have not treated in a decade or more. So they DO survive.


I removed a colony today from a small garage that has 3 other colonies in residence. The entrances to 3 are (were) within 5 feet of each other (one at the other end of the gabled roof) (All 4 were present last summer when I visited.)

I know a house a few miles from this place which had 3 colonies similarly close in tile hung elevation last year.

I regularly have hives re-occupied that are adjacent to other occupied hives.

All this seems at odds with Seeley's stance that colonies naturally space themselves a good distance apart. I would reason that as long as there are no infection issues limiting closeness colonies will live just as close as forage and nest sites allows. I saw a documentary a few years ago about a chap went honey hunting, probably in Africa someplace (I don't recall where it was) where bees made huge combs on cliffs - and the locals abseiled down and pinched the honey in baskets. Here as well many colonies lived quite happily right next to each other.

Mike (UK)


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## Barry

mike bispham said:


> Barry this is surely ill-mannered, inflammatory and offensive.


I suggest people treat others how they want to be treated. Hard for me to get too worked up when you respond this way.



mike bispham said:


> This is terribly elementary Graham. You really need to try to get to grips with the basic of natural selection


My inbox has been cleaned out.


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## rwurster

Mike, most of what you say is contradictory to other statements you have made not to mention they also on occasion contradict hard science. I've been waiting for a reasonable answer to any of Rader's simple questions from you also. How can a direct answer to reasonable questions be so difficult :s

Natural selection and Mike's breeding program are two COMPLETELY different 'animals'


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## mike bispham

rwurster said:


> Mike, most of what you say is contradictory to other statements you have ...


How so? Be specific. Its all too easy to make an assertion, but it doesn't have any force unless you supply your reasoning.



rwurster said:


> ...made not to mention they also on occasion contradict hard science.


Again: how so? Again with the substantiation.



rwurster said:


> I've been waiting for a reasonable answer to any of Rader's simple questions from you also. How can a direct answer to reasonable questions be so difficult
> 
> They are not difficult if the questions are straightforward and the questioner is prepared to engage in the suggested manner with the scientific understanding.
> 
> 
> 
> rwurster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Natural selection and Mike's breeding program are two COMPLETELY different 'animals'
> 
> 
> 
> Again, please do substantiate. This is like the English pantomime: " Oh yes it is"; "Oh no it isn't"
> 
> Mike (UK)
Click to expand...


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## deknow

If only it were like pantomime... no one would be talking...and _someone_ would be trapped in a box.


----------



## mike bispham

deknow said:


> If only it were like pantomime... no one would be talking...and _someone_ would be trapped in a box.


Ohhh no they wouldn't!


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## mike bispham

rwurster said:


> How can a direct answer to reasonable questions be so difficult


Are there dinosaurs in my garden? Yes. Sort of. Birds have evolved from dinosaurs. Alligators are, I think it true to say, actually living dinosaurs. There are none of those in my garden, maybe some in yours?

Mike (UK)


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## Dominic

mike bispham said:


> Are there dinosaurs in my garden? Yes. Sort of. Birds have evolved from dinosaurs. Alligators are, I think it true to say, actually living dinosaurs. There are none of those in my garden, maybe some in yours?
> 
> Mike (UK)


Birds, technically, are dinosaurs. Alligators are non-dinosaurian reptiles, though they are more closely related than most other reptiles to them.

If one wants to be anal about it. 

How to turn a chicken into a dinosaur: https://www.ted.com/talks/jack_horner_building_a_dinosaur_from_a_chicken?language=en


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## rwurster

You have any bean cultivars on a roof somewhere Mike?


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## mike bispham

rwurster said:


> You have any bean cultivars on a roof somewhere Mike?


Don't get it. I do have 50 odd completely untreated hives BOOMING in the May sunshine, nectar pouring off the fruit blossom. Just off to fetch my latest large feral acquisition. Tomorrow I have to fetch another 5 brood bodies and 15 lifts. Life is sweet. Mock away my friend. 

Mike (UK)


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## Rader Sidetrack

Here is the 'bean cultivars on a roof' thread, Mike .... 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...s-Cited-in-the-Literature-for-Honeybee-Forage



... those beans be soybeans ...


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## mike bispham

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Here is the 'bean cultivars on a roof' thread, Mike ....
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...s-Cited-in-the-Literature-for-Honeybee-Forage
> 
> ... those beans be soybeans ...


Nope. Still don't get it.


----------

