# Decided on a Warre Hive



## intlgrrl

I've decided on a Warre Hive and will be placing an order for the hive tomorrow. I have a package of 3 lbs of bees set for delivery at the end of the month, so my hive should be set up and ready to go. Although, now I'm wondering if I should order a 2 lbs queenless package...


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## Honey-4-All

intlgrrl said:


> I've decided on a Warre Hive and will be placing an order for the hive tomorrow. I have a package of 3 lbs of bees set for delivery at the end of the month, so my hive should be set up and ready to go. *Although, now I'm wondering if I should order a 2 lbs queenless package*...


And why would you do that?


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## lemmje

intlgrrl said:


> I should order a 2 lbs queenless package...


What???

Not for the Warre, but for a queenless?


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## intlgrrl

From what I've read about Warre hives, its recommended that they start with rough 5 pounds of bees. I already have a 3 lbs package with a queen, I thought maybe asking from 2 lbs of queenless bees to add to the 3 lbs. I'll call the supplier tomorrow and ask what they recommend. From what I understand, they also use Warre hives.


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## Honey-4-All

If you are going to add bees to an established package doing so can result in the "new" bees taking the queen for a long ride off of off a short plank unless the proper precautions and steps are taken. 

If you are putting them all together then the acceptance rate on the queen will drop as opposed to a three by itself. 

As the Warre hives have become all the rage would someone please explain to me why this is so if one "needs" 6 lbs of bees to fill one a the outset if they are so miraculous. 

IMO the have become the gold standard of beekeeping Rube Goldberg equipment.


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## BYOBee

I started 2 hives a couple years ago.... purchased 3 3lb packages....two with queens and one without. Dumped approx. half of queenless package into each hive giving each about 4-1/2 pounds. I think the larger amount (4 to 5 lbs) of bees is due to fact that the bees will need to build comb......make sure to feed them heavily until they stop taking it


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## odfrank

>IMO the have become the gold standard of beekeeping Rube Goldberg equipment.

And notice that one of the big promoters of "Warre" hives on this forum actually uses "Warre" hives with frames.


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## odfrank

>I think the larger amount (4 to 5 lbs) of bees is due to fact that the bees will need to build comb......make sure to feed them heavily until they stop taking it

Bees installed on foundation need to build comb. Bees build foundationless easier than on plastic foundation. I put a three pound package in a Warre two years ago and it filled six boxes. But I cheated...I managed them to work up, not down.


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## intlgrrl

Ordered my beehive, I'm very excited. I also spoke with my bee supplier about combining the 3 lbs queen package with a 2 lbs queenless bee package and she explained how that works and that since the bees aren't traveling too far that they should be ok. She also gave me a few good ideas for preparation before combining the bees in the hive in order to prevent queen balling from the 2 lbs package. I think it should be ok, if not, lesson learned


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## BYOBee

If you want a good install video, go to www,thewarrestore.com and scroll down to video tutorials and then click on installation ....Sure helped me when I started


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## intlgrrl

BYOBee said:


> If you want a good install video, go to www,thewarrestore.com and scroll down to video tutorials and then click on installation ....Sure helped me when I started


 The video was a good suggestion. The Warre hive I ordered is foundationless, so this will be a big leap since this will be my first hive ever. I do have one question... about poking a whole in the candy for the queen... since now I'm getting 5 lbs of bees total from two packages, wouldn't it be better to leave the candy as is? A longer time to accept the queen I would think.. plus I have to be honest, I would be afraid of poking the queen, so even with the one 3 lbs package, I wouldn't want to poke a hole in the candy, I would rather leave it in tact. Is that wrong? Plus my supplier gave me a few tips about combining the two packages that seemed helpful, and she didn't mention poking a hole in the candy.


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## BYOBee

I'm sure the bees will not have any problems releasing the queen even without the nail hole....may take them a little longer


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## BernhardHeuvel

odfrank said:


> And notice that one of the big promoters of "Warre" hives on this forum actually uses "Warre" hives with frames.


And please notice that one of the big promoters of Warré hives on this forum has kept bees on fixed comb (and still keep about 20 of them) in fixed comb hives for ten years.


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## jadebees

To Honeyforall, if you had any experience keeping Warre hives you would not say they are "Rube Goldberg". Is your opinion based on your limited knowledge? Seems so.
Even with mass production of Lang hives they are not price competitive with Warre hives.
Warre designed this hive partially to address the high failure rate of his parishioners using Lang gear. This trend continues to this day.
I have made and used every type of hive. My old dad made furniture , I've got the skills & tools. Remove the huge mass production aspect of modern hive parts and you find maintenence and production of Warre hives is about 5 times as cost effective. All while simplifying basic beekeeping. Many common beekeeping tasks are simplified by Warre hives. They work wonderfully and produce just as well. They do require attention, just as any hive does. That's the fad thing untrue about them. If a person is serious about home beekeeping and is willing to understand how to work Warre hives they will have much less issues and costs longterm.


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## Honey-4-All

Since i have "limited" Warre experience please enlighten me on why they are so wonderful.

I'm sure they have benefits......

The question is: Does the drawback side of of the bee teeter totter outway the benefit side with the Warre?


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## jadebees

Do your own research if you care.


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## Honey-4-All

What I care about is all those folks who bought packages from me and a few associates who happen to screw the bees and queens up at a very high rate compared to the "standard" crowd.. 

If the things are so miraculous i'm doing a head scratch as to why the failure rate is so high..... ??????????


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## intlgrrl

I suddenly feel like I've walked into a beekeeper's version of a Big Bang Theory episode.... I'm sorry that my topics/questions have set off a "merry war betwixt" certain beekeepers and their theories.... unfortunately, I'm too new to even keep up...


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## jadebees

Dont worry about it. Just learn about beekeeping. Warre hives are easy to use.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Honey-4-All said:


> ... why the failure rate is so high..... ??????????


That's because of the greenish attitude of the hive and folks that are drawn to it, expect it to work by it's own. As is with any other hive, too, bees need to be cared about. Some hive a package and expect to collect their own nectar from the start. That's making me scratching my head.

Also there are wrong manuals out there. A lot of people hive them on two, three or even four boxes from the start. Because of bad advise. That is a mistake, too. Especially with a package, where a lot of bees will die before time, you need to install them on one box. I hive any sort of swarm on one box only, and that is beneficial for the bees. 

So to shorten it: it is more the people that are drawn to that sort of hive, plus bad advise rather than the hive itself, that is causing the trouble. 

Personally I see more fails on standard equipment. Learning beekeeping is a difficult task and not really learned on your own. Learn from experienced beekeepers. Directly at the hive. That is the best way. Do visit other apiaries and learn from different people. That would be my advise to your customers. 

Also advise them to use one box for the start, let them feed those packages and tell them they need to inspect the hives. A package is no natural swarm and needs to be treated differently. Maybe some instructions can be included with your packages. If you want I can make a flyer or something, that you can print out and add to your packages.


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## odfrank

I have now started nine Warres for other people and one for myself after getting about 42 years experience with Langstroth hives and operating over 100 of them. I only started one for myself because I won it here on Beesource as a raffle prize. The advantages and benefits between the two is crystal clear to me. 

It was a surprise to me that Bernard promoted "Warre" hives but primarily publishes pictures of "Warre" hives with frames. I would imagine that most of the participants in Beesource are Americans, few even know what a Warre hive is, and that those who do, consider a Warre hive to be a TOPBAR hive. The only Warre hives with frames marketed here in the USA that I know of, are clearing sold as a different entity, a _Modified Warre_ hive. I would imagine that the percentage of Warre hives with frames in the USA is very small. To me a Warre hive with frames is just a miniature Langstroth with a deceptive name. The management of a topbar hive and a framed hive is very different. As we discuss the benefits and problems with Warre hives, lets be very clear if we are talking about a topbar Warre or a framed Warre. 
I would think that the problems Honey for All's package purchasers have had were because of the difference in management between a framed and topbar hives. Also, most beginners accepting the dogma of a Warre hive are also treatment free, possibly leading to greater losses for Honey-For-All's customers. I would not called a topbar Warre "Rube Goldberg", I would call it old fashioned, lacking in the ease of management that a framed hive gives us.


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## intlgrrl

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Especially with a package, where a lot of bees will die before time, you need to install them on one box. I hive any sort of swarm on one box only, and that is beneficial for the bees.
> 
> Also advise them to use one box for the start, let them feed those packages and tell them they need to inspect the hives. A package is no natural swarm and needs to be treated differently. Maybe some instructions can be included with your packages. If you want I can make a flyer or something, that you can print out and add to your packages.


 I have a few questions, the statement about a package needing to be treated differently than a natural swarm makes sense. I ordered bees that wouldn't have to travel a great distance, however; the package will be traveling just the same. That alone has me a bit tense, as I would imagine the bees would be a bit stressed on arrival. (I saw the postage route scene in "More Than Honey".... interesting). I would have loved to ordered bees within my state, but I for one reason or another, simply could not make the pick up dates. I also reached out to a few beekeepers, but my experience so far is they have been a bit stand-offish. The next beekeeper meeting is Wednesday, so I'm hoping to meet somebody that is interested in mentoring.

Since I'm getting packaged bees, how often should I feed once hived? I'm finding varying answers to the question, but those have been from manuals. After hiving the bees, how long to leave then alone before checking on them? A week? 2 Weeks? this seems to differ from manual and even from suggestions here on the forum. I picked the Warre for a few reasons, and I don't plan to harvest honey this year, since its my first year, I just want to get the basics down first. What in the world does teeter totter mean in reference to Warre hives? Are they really that unstable? I would think if they were, people wouldn't use them. My Warre hive is foundationless, so which do bees form comb on the fastest, with or without foundation? Can packaged bees turn out to be a "hot hive", or is this only with feral bees? I've read a few places that a cheese or piano wire is best for separating Warre boxes... wouldn't one run the risk of slicing bees, namely the queen in half? Why only one box to hive to start? I'm curious to know your reasoning.


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## odfrank

>Re: Impressions on beekeeping with a Warré or Gatineau hive - It is a Warré hive with frames and a different lid. That's it. Needed a different roof when I started migrating. Also frames were necessary to work more hives in less time. Strictly spoken it is not a Warré hive, but that's only for the nitpickers. For me the dimensions are the key element.>

We have parallel threads running. I am glad to see that a distinction between topbar and framed Warre hives is being made. To me it is not nitpicking. Would we be clear on what is going on in the Mideast if we confused Muslims, Catholics, Buddhists and Jewish? The name you give the item you are discussing is very important. There is a HUGE difference between a topbar Warre hive and a framed Gatineau hive.


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## lamarcarama

I chose a Warré hive for my first bee experience for the worst possible reason: aesthetics. I just really liked the geometry of the tall thin hive and it was a chance to put my workworking skills to good use (not that the ladies care one bit.) Here's a couple pics of the bodies and base and the roof. 

















All that said, I have been super happy and the bees are doing great. I went frameless and they've been drawing out comb and socking away pollen like champs. So I'm sure your 5 lbs of bees will do great in your new hive.


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## odfrank

>aesthetics

Everyone who sees a Warre says they are "cute".


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## intlgrrl

lamarcarama said:


> I chose a Warré hive for my first bee experience for the worst possible reason: aesthetics. I just really liked the geometry of the tall thin hive and it was a chance to put my workworking skills to good use (not that the ladies care one bit.) All that said, I have been super happy and the bees are doing great. I went frameless and they've been drawing out comb and socking away pollen like champs. So I'm sure your 5 lbs of bees will do great in your new hive.



I picked the Warre hive, because the boxes are lighter to lift as well as the hive being smaller, family members didn't want a large hive, and my main purpose for beekeeping is to provide the area with pollinators as well as studying bees first hand. Honey is a second reason, but I'm not sure if I will harvest any this first year, plus I am partial to comb honey. Since it will be me beekeeping alone, I wanted supers I could actually lift.


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## BernhardHeuvel

odfrank said:


> There is a HUGE difference between a topbar Warre hive and a framed Gatineau hive.


Which is? Significantly? 

Watch out, thrifty beeekeepers ask things they already know, to test the opponent's knowledge.


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## Michael Bush

>Since it will be me beekeeping alone, I wanted supers I could actually lift.

Which is why I went to eight frame medium Langstroths...

Any size package will likely do fine. 2lb. 3lb. Anything more is probably a waste of your money but they will likely do fine as well. Start with one box. Add the next when that one is 80% full.


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## odfrank

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Which is? Significantly?Watch out, thrifty beekeepers ask things they already know, to test the opponent's knowledge.


You said so yourself: "Re: Impressions on beekeeping with a Warré or Gatineau hive - It is a Warré hive with frames and a different lid. That's it. Needed a different roof when I started migrating. *Also frames were necessary to work more hives in less time.* Strictly spoken it is not a Warré hive, but that's only for the nitpickers. For me the dimensions are the key element."

What dimensions do you feel are the key element? I have had great success with much wider Brother Adam hives and 10 frame Langstroths.


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## BernhardHeuvel

So, no significant differences. Thanks.


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## intlgrrl

MY BEEHIVE IS HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *goes to start assembling Warre hive* For the guys I met in the chat last night... You're Awesome!


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## jadebees

You will find, as you work Warre hives, that it is very easy to maintain beespace within the box. You will see and hear of the " maintenence" in Lang hives. Much of it consists of scraping the frames to maintain the 3/8" OR 9-10 mm spacing. This is greatly eased in a W. hive. You'll see a solid laying pattern, wall to wall brood. Even a 1 mm shrinkage or widening will make a difference. Very slightly under, and the bees like it.The slightest increase in distance between the frames , past the ideal, and the queen will not lay in the deeper cells the workers construct. So you see less new brood and slow/ declining hives. Mssr. Warre was -very- experienced. The original dimensions support that, and bees thrive in those hives. GOOD LUCK! Learn beekeeping, it's not the hive, it's your beekeeping knowledge that will give you sucess.


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## Houstonbees

Ok, I'll jump into the fray. 
Intlgrrl, two years ago I built 4 Warres from plans I downloaded from the website Biobees.com (you'd have to do some searching, but the link is there). Biobees.com is a website out of England that is pretty much devoted to Warre hive owners and horizontal top bar hives. Way too much to explain here but that website is a goldmine of info regarding Warres. On this website Bernhard Heuvel is the go to guy for Warre info.
Back to two years ago---I added a 3lb package with marked queen to a two box Warre. Hung the queen cage from one of the top bars after pushing a small nail thru the candy to create a "thru hole". Might not be necessary but I did anyway. Closed it up and left it alone for 4 days. Opened the hive by taking roof/quilt/mosquito netting under quilt off---found empty queen cage. Closed the hive up except this time i installed a feeder (quart jar) on top of the middle top bars. Fed the girls until THEY QUIT TAKING THE FEED (about 3 weeks), then removed the feeder and reinstalled the quilt on top of the netting/roof. They built comb, more comb, moved down to the second box, filled that one 80% full, then I added a 3rd box which they filled half way with comb then stopped as fall set in. I didn't take any honey the first year.
Got the hive through winter/spring, had to add 4th box which they filled 80%. Added the 5th and they never moved down to the 5th. Out of one box last year I got 23 lbs honey (topmost box). The Warre hive does need inspection and management just like Langstroth hives do.
Get your hive built first, watch installation videos


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## Houstonbees

Watch installation videos at TheWarrestore.com, and read,read,read at Biobees.com. And I suggest also reading David Heafs' book "Natural Beekeeping with the Warre Hive--a manual". 
An excellent book for us "Warreors". 
Best wishes and luck on your new adventure,
Gunther


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## intlgrrl

Thanks for the advice! The hive is assembled and oil treated... the bees arrive next week. Way excited. I'm guessing a weekend installation.


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## Stlnifr

I think you made a good choice, I believe it mimics a bee tree. Been exploring the idea of building a slightly modified Warre Hive, it will still be square but just a tad larger, I interpret bee space slightly different. The original plans call for 13 5/16 square but I am going to build 13 3/4 square will be 12 1/4 inside measurements. That is only 7/16 larger each direction. I will be using 8 top bars 1 1/4 inch and 1/4 inch bee space. Using 7 1/4 boards versus 8 9/32 in height. that will be 1 1/32 shorter in height.


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## jadebees

As long as the total of the bars and the gap remains 1 3/8" or less you can make them longer. In KTBH they are 1 3/8" wide and (usually) 17" long. I've used 1 1/4" for smaller wild bees and they thrive. I use the original metric dimensions and.... now my boxes fit all the standard Warre hives.


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## intlgrrl

Can you take a picture of the end result? I would like to see how it turns out. What wood are you going to use?


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## intlgrrl

Hi Houston,
I've taken a look at Biobees.com, and its a pretty informative site, I even printed Warre's book as well and I'm working my way through it. As far as feeding the bees, since I have one hive, would it be okay to use an outside feeder? I have assembled my hive and it turned out fine. I purchased a hive, since I have no building skills, and finished it with oil, turned out nice. I've been watching all sorts of installation videos and they have been helpful. I just hope the bees accept the hive. they're coming next week.


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## Stlnifr

intlgrrl said:


> Can you take a picture of the end result? I would like to see how it turns out. What wood are you going to use?


Will be using pine wood will start with two boxes a quilt and a roof. I have feral bees a swarm from a bee tree at the present they are in a top bar hive very gentle easy to work no smoke no gloves but I do wear a veil. Do not think it is necessary but I wear it any way. Not fully satisfied with a horizontal top bar hive. So looking for an alternative more like a bee tree and think Warre will fit that description.


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## intlgrrl

The bees are in the hive.... and its been an interesting experience getting them in there. Good news, no stings

Ok, so as I mentioned no stings

now for the rest of the story...

dumped the bees in, but that are still quite a number outside of the hive. however, there are bees that have started the whole rear end in the air and fanning business.

the bees pounced on the queen cage right away, so I think I release will be in a few days... I didn't poke a whole in the fondant.

I busted the feeding bag and had to make another

I smashed more bees than expected... these little girls were every where and into everything

One bee followed me into the house and quickly turned around and pelted the door until she was let out

I saw several drones and there was a puddle of yellow goo left by somebody, I don't know what it is.

and... I have a spare queen....


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## intlgrrl

Is it common for a small cluster of bees to house themselves on the underside of the roof of a Warre?


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## BernhardHeuvel

No.
Young queen maybe swarmed and settled on the roof.


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## intlgrrl

BernhardHeuvel said:


> No.
> Young queen maybe swarmed and settled on the roof.


 I think you're right, because I accidentally knocked the roof when I was feeding the bees, and all these bees fell out from under the roof. less than an hour later, they were all clustered under the roof. I'll see if they're still there in the morning.


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## intlgrrl

Yeah, that cluster is still there... I think you are right.... I hope the hive doesn't house there


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## BernhardHeuvel

It will if you wait any longer. Shake the cluster into a hive.


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## intlgrrl

Shook the cluster in a small box, only a few stragglers left


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## intlgrrl

The small cluster didn't survive... the details are a bit interesting... That's a story for much later. finally went back in the hive today. I probably should've went in, in the morning, while it was still a bit cool out. Lots of propolis and lots of comb. The top box is 100% full of comb, some still empty while quite a few have eggs. there are eight bars in each box, and each bar has a comb. The bars in the middle, perhaps three have eggs in the comb, while the rest of the bars with comb are still empty. I think I may have to add a third box soon. The bees were a bit antsy, so I didn't check the bottom box this time. Will check the bottom box in about two weeks. No stings, no butting guard bees, just antsy bees. everything looks good so far. didn't see the queen, butt he presence of eggs makes me happy.


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## divermike

This is a fantastic thread, can't wait for my 2 packages to arrive in April, all of your input is keeping me awake nights thinking about this stuff, thanks to all who take the time to share.


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## intlgrrl

I realized I haven't responded to this thread in a while and I want to update everyone about how my hive is doing after roughly about 18 months beekeeping. The hive has swarmed maybe twice and I wasn't around. (Bummer) The bees are thriving and going strong and the little sample of honey I removed is delicious. So now that the hive is doing well, I will harvest next year for honey. I will also add two more hives to the yard, giving me a total of 3 hives altogether. I will more than likely get another Warre, and I'm tempted to get a long top bar or Lang just to have some variety. I think next year, I'll take pic of my little urban beeyard and the planned garden for the next year.


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## dshanabrook

forget it. not worth the bother


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## JWPalmer

dshanabrook said:


> forget it. not worth the bother


Now that is an interesting response to a 2 year old thread.

I wonder what happened that winter to cause the OP to stop posting?


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## little_john

JWPalmer said:


> Now that is an interesting response to a 2 year old thread.
> 
> I wonder what happened that winter to cause the OP to stop posting?


An 'interesting' first post ... I'm wondering why someone is bothering to dig up an old thread, when they're highly unlikely to get a response from the OP, who hasn't posted here since Jan 2016. 
LJ


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## dshanabrook

I wasn't looking at the dates. Got it now. I was going to say something about stereotyping people by religion, and the appropriateness of this in a beekeeping forum, but decided it wasn't worth the bother.


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## intlgrrl

I hadn't posted in this thread in a long while, because I would hang out in the chat and get most of my questions answered there. The long and short of it, is that my held strong for three years... that is until someone sprayed insulation foam into the opening of my hive... I will possible have to clean out the hive come spring. I will continue with the warre hive, but I plan on purchasing a cathedral hive for my second hive


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