# New TBH Beekeeper -broken comb!



## ShannaRose (Feb 10, 2015)

Oh no! My 1st time going into my hive after 1 month. Lots of fast building activity since the wild mangos are in flower and needed to move the space divider to give them the whole hive with all 30 bars. Was carefully checking the comb for cross-combing and inspection for hive beetles, which are rampant here in Hawaii. Lots of capped brood, nectar, and capped honey looking really good and no beetles. All went well till I got to the front few bars, and I could tell they were stuck together, so I carefully lifted out 2 together as taught by my mentor. Turned out there were 3 stuck together I think. As I lifted them slowly out I watched a big heavy honey and likely brood-filled comb fall into the hive!! Bummer! I carefully and quickly lowered the bars. I am lucky to have a window and was appalled to see my mess, along with about 6 squished bees between the comb and the glass. Of course the bees went to work repairing, and I know as long as the queen was not hurt all will be well...

Possibly this happened because I went into the hive late in the afternoon when the wax was very warm. Perhaps it's better to do morning in a hot climate?

my questions: My mentor does not check early on for cross combing, though the book I read on tbh by Les Crowder suggests getting in there early and placing empty bars between combs to keep them straight as well as manipulate the hive in all kinds of ways that are likely useful but beyond my beginner understanding at this point. 
Should I have checked sooner so that I could have detected the cross combing earlier?

What should I do now? Just wait a few days, I know. How will I know if the queen was crushed? Should I go in and take the honey that fell in?? Of course I'll call my mentor but I like to get other opinions...

Thanks
Shanna


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## msscha (Jan 4, 2014)

Hi, Shanna!

So, first, let me state that I am also a first-season TBH beek -- my first full year anniversary is April 09. But, I had much the same issue as you're talking about, and received lots of good advice. The first decision is whether the crossed-comb needs to go back into the hive. If the comb broke off, and it wasn't removed or repaired, the bees will do the job, but not in a way that makes management any easier (they won't reattach fallen comb to the top bar, but will attach it to the floors and side of hive). I decided to remove cross combed honey bars or broken empty bars, and consider it unintended harvest! If it's brood, then re-attaching is the better strategy. Personally, the technique that worked best for me was recommended but August C -- he uses masking tape, wrapped vertically up the comb and across the bar. The masking tape is thin enough not to interfere with placing bars back in place, the bees will re-attach the comb, and eventually, chew away the masking tape. Worked like a charm! Hardest part was getting the bees off the broken brood comb so they wouldn't get taped in. 

I live in North Central Florida, which gets cool during the winter but is very warm in the summer. I learned I had to work comb earlier in the day than others rather than in the evening. The bees are not necessarily happier about that (fewer are out foraging, so more are home to take affront at being inspected), but the comb was more stable. This was especially important last year when ALL the comb was new b/c the hive was new. This year, I've got lots of brood nest comb that is comfortably brown, and more stable -- I can feel the difference handling the comb, even when it's packed with brood and bees. The paler comb feels both heavier and softer (and is also often packed with honey). I built a really simple inspection stand to set bars on so I don't even have to flip them if I want to do a hands-free inspection or take pictures. 

In terms of the queen, if the cross-combed bars were mostly honey then she likely wasn't there; however, to be sure, the next time you go in, look for eggs and larvae (especially young larvae if you have as much trouble seeing eggs through a head net as I do!). Then, you know you have a queen at work and finding her isn't mandatory.

Aah, the checking for cross-combing debate! Here is where RuthiesBees and FruitVeggieGirl were REALLY helpful, along with Michael Bush, August C, and others. And I have to agree with their assessment: it is better to get cross-combing fixed early, especially if you live in a state that requires movable comb and if you plan on relatively stress-free management. As Michael Bush has written time and time again, one straight comb leads to another. I have one clump of three-bars that are cross-combed right in the heart of the brood nest. (I'm pretty sure that's where the queen hangs out as I never see her!) I used to have 6 bars. I followed MB's advice, bit the bullet, and broke up that 6 bar clump with a straight piece taken from new comb build, cut away the mis-matching pieces, and started the process of straight comb building. Worked very nicely, and now (6 months later!) have only one 3-bar clump still wonky, but the rest of the hive (25 bars full of 30 possible) has nicely straight, easy to deal with comb. This year, I will fix cross-combing pronto, while moving the final 3-bar clump to the edge of the brood nest to become honey comb. 

Les Crowder's book is great, but I know the management section you're talking about, and I didn't understand it until I had a nearly full hive, and saw how the bees built the colony. Now, it makes much more sense!

Okay -- this was a long post, but I hope it helped some!

Best,
Mickey (msscha)


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## Charlie King (Apr 27, 2014)

Shanna if you look at the diagrams in the Les Crowder book he has one of doing a cutout where he lays up the brood combs at the back of the hive spacing them with sticks, until all brood has emerged, Then the combs are removed and processed. Considering your gorgeous climate and your healthy hive I would go for this easy option. Put it down to experience, The bees will replace those 3 combs in no time at all and the queen will have nice fresh cells to lay in. Fresh comb = healthy bees 

If you really want to reattach them to the top bars you can use a variety of methods, so far I have seen tape, string, ribbon, hardware cloth, hair clips attached to the bar with string... anything at hand really , be creative!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Remove it & eat it and throw away any brood.

If the comb was built cross combed on that bar, the bees will likely follow the same pattern again if you just put the bar back where it was. So to avoid that wedge 2 properly built bars apart and put the bar between them, the bees will be forced to build the comb straight between the other 2 straight combs.

If the other bars you mentioned are also cross combed, plan to harvest them once the time is right, and again, put them individually, between 2 straight built combs so the bees will build the new comb how you want.

The general idea being any comb built not how you want, gets harvested then fixed.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Remove it & eat it and throw away any brood.
> 
> If the comb was built cross combed on that bar, the bees will likely follow the same pattern again if you just put the bar back where it was. So to avoid that wedge 2 properly built bars apart and put the bar between them, the bees will be forced to build the comb straight between the other 2 straight combs.
> 
> ...


There are drawbacks to this method. They may just build the existing combs out extremely wide because they have the space instead of starting a new one. Happened to me a couple of times last year. Carniolans didn't do it, but the Italians did.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

True that can happen, if you do not like that there are reasons for it & things you can do.

It can be avoided by putting the bar in the middle of the brood area, they will draw the bar how you want, once the comb is started it can be moved to the honey storage area. Also, they mostly only draw combs fat like that when there is a good heavy flow on, during those times run the hive accordingly and be prepared to harvest so they do not run out of room. If they draw some of those honey combs fat but you are harvesting anyway, doesn't matter just harvest away & enjoy.


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

hi Shanna, what did you use as a guide to begin with. You may want to invest in Wyatt Mangums TBH book. He advises a 2 inch wax foundation as a guide and I would echo his advice. In regards to your current situation I would agree with others who have already advised going in and pulling out the fallen comb. There are a few ways that you can read the comb depending on how straight it is. It can be fun as well as a good learning experience to work towards correctly the matter. If you were to build a framed bar or even a few of them you could elastic band in the straight prices as you would in a Lang. Cut out the honey and place it in the back of the hive or enjoy it at the table. There are other methods, but I am fond of a few frames (be sure there is at least a bee space between the frames and walls and floor


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## AugustC (Aug 7, 2013)

Hi Shanna
I remember breaking a comb in my first year, I was utterly apalled with myself. If happened to be a brood comb so the bees weren't too impressed either. It took them a good two weeks to calm down again. I know lots of people just say leave them to it but i subscribe to the view of adding a bar or two at a time and spacing out the honey bars as I go along. Adding bars between already drawn comb, or comb and a follower board certainly helps to keep thing straight. Be aware though that if you add a bar between two honey combs, they may decide to build those combs out rather than build a new comb between. You can also be caught out on this if you add the bars between the brood comb and honey comb. Adding between brood combs has never resulting is dodgy comb for me. They only other thing you need to watch out for is when they build the honey comb out it gets heavy and they will increase side attachments. 

As for the mess you find yourself in. I would have removed the broken comb on the day. Leaving it increases the chances of robbing etc. Hindsight though is wonderful and in the moment panic tends to takeover. I think in your position I would give them a couple of days to clean up any exposed honey, then go in and remove the mess. Be aware that they will not consider you friendly, if you have a spare pairs of hands to help work quicker then so much the better. If you are worried they don't have enough food then any you get out could be fed back otherwise once you have cleaned up, close up. Leave them for a good two weeks. There isn't a lot you can mess up that a healthy colony can't sort out given the time and space to do so.
best of luck.


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## AugustC (Aug 7, 2013)

btw mangum's approach using the 1-2" foundation strip is 100% effective provided the foundation strip stays put. If the strip isn't currently attached or warps due to the weather (usually only in bait hives) then it is 100% as pain in the ******. I have tried quite a few wooden guides and have never had a wonky comb using full rounds of dowels (10mm diameter) nailed to the bars. I am sure others have experiences which differ.


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## reminniear (Apr 7, 2014)

AugustC said:


> I have tried quite a few wooden guides and have never had a wonky comb using full rounds of dowels (10mm diameter) nailed to the bars.


Hey AugustC,

Do you mean half round dowel? Currently I use Mangum's approach but am looking for something as effective that's a bit more durable.


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## AugustC (Aug 7, 2013)

Nope, full round. I have tried half rounds and they work quite well. On the full rounds though the bees haven't put a foot wrong. I only tried it because I had a lot and couldn't be bothered to cut them long ways 
They have worked very well, though I did switch from 36mm to 38mm top bars at the same time so could be a combination of the two things.


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## reminniear (Apr 7, 2014)

Many thanks, AugustC. 
That sounds a lot safer than trying to cut them in half. I'll be trying full round dowels this season.
Do you have any additional advice on implementation? How many nails per bar to hold the dowel? Finishing or box nail? Glue? 


Sorry for hi-jacking your thread Shanna...


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## catbackr (Jun 5, 2010)

I've used popsicle sticks, and 3/4 inch strips cut in half for guides. Both worked fine. In my opinion, you have to keep all the comb straight, right from the beginning even if that means tearing it off and making them start over. Once they started hooking the bars together you'll fight that the rest of the life of the hive.


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

Hi Reminiear you could also use the tongue from tongue and groove soffit material. It works very well and u can use the rest of the wood to make bars then nail with tongue side facing down. That being said I still think 2 inches of wax foundation is best


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## ShannaRose (Feb 10, 2015)

Thanks for all this awesome information. My mentor lets her combs get all crossed and crazy and deals with them so effortlessly it blows me away! I however would prefer them to draw straighter combs, so I am going to experiment lightly. Actually, when I got back in I found out what broke was all brood...and I was too late to reattach it. So much mango nectar for them right now they are rebuilding like crazy and the queen is fine. Thanks everyone, this is a great way to learn!!


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