# DIY simple easy to make hive frames



## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

I'm planning on building a couple of the super deeps this winter. The frames were worrisome tho, I'd ditch those bottom tacks and let gravity do it. I like it :thumbsup: potentially my trial frames.


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## HiMyNameIsBrian (Jun 22, 2016)

Forget to mention, I also sliced a groove down the center of the top bar to use Popsicle sticks as comb guides. Like an I-beam the Popsicle sticks also add strength to the top bar.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

How many of these frames do you have in use and how long have you been using them?


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## HiMyNameIsBrian (Jun 22, 2016)

I have 2 hives with them this season and the bees are building perfect with them so far. I Will also be moving 3 top bar hives into boxes with them. All this work and Mann lake in PA is only an hour drive from here lol.


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

Good luck. Beehives get pretty sticky after a while. There is a reason frame design is so complex. Two reasons actually. Spacing and strength. 
I think that is the intent of BradBee's comment.


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

Yeah I've thought a pretty good bit about that. I think most of the complexity is due to the frames themselves creating beespace. With the spacer buttons that becomes a non issue. Rather than putting the staples in on a 90 I'd go with fitting the pieces in a jig and shooting 2 at least 1 1/2" staples thru the sidebars up into the topbar and down into the bottom bar on a 45. Like the Kregs jig concept. If they pop thru, even better, mash them over for a little better traction. That with todays glue and I believe it'll hold together just as well for the purpose as well as hold square. Let you know how it holds up to a torture test cause that's what I'm trying first. I have no interest in spending hours making elaborate gear if simple get the job done.


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## HiMyNameIsBrian (Jun 22, 2016)

I originally thought about using fine screws pre drilled or using nails but after a bit of pondering I decided that since the sides and bottom were minimal weight bearing, compared to the top bar, it would be a waste of time so went with heavy duty staples and good glue. What the classic frame design achieves in woodwork can easily be achieved with today's hardware options and a bit of thinking outside the box. With the push pins spacers there is actually no wood in contact between frames so these is no surface area for the bees to glue together.


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## Munson (Mar 16, 2014)

I thought most of the complexity was to increase surface area of the joints. (So they are stronger glued and nailed)


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## HiMyNameIsBrian (Jun 22, 2016)

To keep everything square and centered mostly, to make final assemble quick and easy for the consumer (I made a jig for final assemble).


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

HiMyNameIsBrian said:


> I originally thought about using fine screws pre drilled or using nails but after a bit of pondering I decided that since the sides and bottom were minimal weight bearing, compared to the top bar, it would be a waste of time so went with heavy duty staples and good glue. What the classic frame design achieves in woodwork can easily be achieved with today's hardware options and a bit of thinking outside the box. With the push pins spacers there is actually no wood in contact between frames so these is no surface area for the bees to glue together.


 You have no structural value for bees or comb. Frames are built the way they are for a reason. In joy the time you are saving NOW. Just some advice after pulling frames out of hives for the last 10 years......


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

HiMyNameIsBrian said:


> I originally thought about using fine screws pre drilled or using nails but after a bit of pondering I decided that since the sides and bottom were minimal weight bearing, compared to the top bar, it would be a waste of time so went with heavy duty staples and good glue. What the classic frame design achieves in woodwork can easily be achieved with today's hardware options and a bit of thinking outside the box. With the push pins spacers there is actually no wood in contact between frames so these is no surface area for the bees to glue together.


 You have no structural value for bees or comb. Frames are built the way they are for a reason. In joy the time you are saving NOW. Just some advice after pulling frames out of hives for the last 10 years......


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

Munson +1. The weakness will be where the end grain is glued at the top and bottom bars at the sides. When the bees build burr comb between boxes there will be lots of stress at those points as you pull frames out. You could make a tool (couple bolts or pieces of wood with flexible wire or strong fishing line, like a "spiderwire" garrott, to pull between the boxes to cut the comb loose.


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## BeeMoose (Oct 19, 2013)

For the .75 each I currently pay, it is not worth my time to set up each piece of equipment to make all the cuts necessary to correctly shape a frame.

But I have no problem with someone else taking the time. Every dime you can save is a oood thing, IMO.

But to me, Time is Honey!


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Somehow I bet that back in 1820 the frames in a bee hive were pretty much just like OP is making. 
We'll get there again but first the power grid has to go down. Til then I'm buying my frames from Mann Lake for $0.75 each.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

those will break as soon as they are spun, there is no joint integrity, butt joints are weak and not secure.
good luck


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If you have any doubt about the importance of interlocking joinery for strength do a search on Japanese joinery. With no glue and no metal fasteners extreme strength and durability is do able. Joint _design_ is king though! lI doubt those frames will stand up to pulling from boxes or shaking bees off if they are full of honey. I think too much strength is sacrificed for simplicity of construction. The design of current frames is not for show but to provide the necessary strength for the service intended.


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

What page are the .75cent frames on in the Mann lake catalog?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you put the spacers on opposite sides for opposite ends, and do it consistently, they will all be interchangable. i.e. you can turn them around and they still work the same. Here are the frames that Carl Killion made:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/KillionNailSpacing.jpg

(the frame in the picture is upside down from what it is in the hive)


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

I haven't found 12" deep frames in a catalogue that I can remember and I'll keep everybodies advice about needing Herculean strength frames in my broodnest under advisement. Nice tip Michael makes perfect sense. That picture also shows a simple way to get extra strength out of a simple design


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

"_The flying machine which will really fly might be evolved by the combined and
continuous efforts of mathematicians and machanicians in from one million to
ten million years" _- the New York Times, 9 Oct. 1903

"_We started assembly today_" - Orville Wright's Diary, 9 Oct. 1903


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

ApricotApiaries said:


> Good luck. Beehives get pretty sticky after a while. There is a reason frame design is so complex. Two reasons actually. Spacing and strength.
> I think that is the intent of BradBee's comment.


Yep, that's the intent. I am not trying to throw water on your fire but I don't think they will hold up over time.


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## Joe Hillmann (Apr 27, 2015)

I build my frames very similar to that. Except the side bars are 7/8 on the bottom and 1 3/8 on the top. So far I haven't had a problem with them. I figure if a hive can be built using just top bars then this is stronger and has more support than that.

Although my extractor is tangential and has baskets that support a large amount of the comb so blowouts are unlikely to happen


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I'm in the group that think frames need to be cut with strong joints and assembled with nails and glue. Here is one of my frames with 3/4 thick top bars, 7/16 side bars, and 3/8 divided bottom bars. It is nailed and glued with 3 horizontal wires to support wired 10 5/8 foundation from Dadant. This photo was taken a few days after the frame was given to the bees but before it was fully drawn out.


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

BeeMoose said:


> For the .75 each I currently pay, it is not worth my time to set up each piece of equipment to make all the cuts necessary to correctly shape a frame.
> 
> But I have no problem with someone else taking the time. Every dime you can save is a oood thing, IMO.
> 
> But to me, Time is Honey!


I agree. I recently did make some frames, but it was purely for the experience of doing it and thinking through the joinery. No way would I make them "regularly". The material was dirt cheap (mostly scrap) but the hours to do all the milling...well...high. Of course, I have 16 of them with the top bar design I wanted so we could try some foundation-less in our copious free time as well as for the swarm traps that are on "my list" for construction.










Top bar design I used...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Jim_in_PA said:


> I agree. I recently did make some frames, but it was purely for the experience of doing it and thinking through the joinery. No way would I make them "regularly". The material was dirt cheap (mostly scrap) but the hours to do all the milling...well...high. Of course, I have 16 of them with the top bar design I wanted so we could try some foundation-less in our copious free time as well as for the swarm traps that are on "my list" for construction.


Very, very nicely done! I would say you may have done that kind of work for a living!


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

crofter said:


> Very, very nicely done! I would say you may have done that kind of work for a living!


Frank, woodworking is just one of several "expensive avocations" I enjoy. It's nice that I'm able to help support my better half with the beekeeping thing. That said, there's no way I would make frames again outside of a special need...way too time consuming! (Although the jigs I setup for those pictured are available if I do have that need) Thanks for your very kind comment!


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## tazke (Mar 23, 2015)

Very impressed! 
When my wife thought 1,000 frames were to expensive and suggested. "I am sure you can make frames" I had several rebuttals pop in my head. Since I have been married for a very long time I stated "hey I bet we could, let's make some!"
We made 10, when we were done we admired them with a smile. I said, "we saved $7.50! And only 990 to go!"
She said, "order frames, I'm going inside."
I ordered 2,000 frames.


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

Yea, there are many, many things that are often worth making ourselves, but frames are NOT one of them!!


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Jim_in_PA said:


> Yea, there are many, many things that are often worth making ourselves, but frames are NOT one of them!!


X2, Its the only thing I still buy. G


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I think a work around to the butt joints would be cut frame pieces at 45's to create a frame you could then mount to a top bar. No fancy joinery, and strong to boot. Would also be self squaring.


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

Nordak said:


> I think a work around to the butt joints would be cut frame pieces at 45's to create a frame you could then mount to a top bar. No fancy joinery, and strong to boot. Would also be self squaring.


 Sounds easy enough, save your $10.00 on buying frames that work..Let us know how they work out in a year and what you are doing.....


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

Nordak said:


> I think a work around to the butt joints would be cut frame pieces at 45's to create a frame you could then mount to a top bar. No fancy joinery, and strong to boot. Would also be self squaring.


That would still be an end-grain to end-grain joint and require reinforcement with splines or other means to keep strong over time.


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

One feature that my purchased frames have thst many homemade frames do not is the bevel on the top of the top bar where it rest on the box. 

Thst bevel decreases the contact area between the box and the frame thereby reducing the amount of propolis holding the frame to the box.

This in turn reduces the force needed to move the frame. 

As others have stated there is a reason for most design aspects of a frame. The Mann lake frames I bought have incredible engineering and quality of workmanship for the price. I will spare my fingers unless I am forced into doomsday beekeeping by zombies.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Bees of SC said:


> Sounds easy enough, save your $10.00 on buying frames that work..Let us know how they work out in a year and what you are doing.....


I'm already buying frames. Not to say they wouldn't work, buy yeah, I'm not spending the time doing it. Just a thought.


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

Joe Hillmann said:


> I figure if a hive can be built using just top bars then this is stronger and has more support than that.


In a Lang, the bees will connect an upper frame to a frame in the box below it, and trying to pull THAT out is when you need really strong joints.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Jim_in_PA said:


> That would still be an end-grain to end-grain joint and require reinforcement with splines or other means to keep strong over time.


I'd say if he's using TB III, and made sure to apply the glue correctly to overcome absorption from cross grain connection it should work fine. Mitered, it has more surface area than a butt joint, which means more strength at glued joint. If he were to staple the frame part parallel to the top bar, then mount the frame to bar (grain to grain) I think it would be strong enough to last for a while.


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

rolftonbees said:


> One feature that my purchased frames have thst many homemade frames do not is the bevel on the top of the top bar where it rest on the box.
> 
> Thst bevel decreases the contact area between the box and the frame thereby reducing the amount of propolis holding the frame to the box.
> 
> This in turn reduces the force needed to move the frame.


Yea, this is a good point...I forgot to do that bevel on those I built while machining the top bars. I may be able to retrofit with my combo sander, but for that, I'd have to unbury that tool. I use it so infrequently.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

15 years ago I got my hands on some free wood/scrap - cut outs from making boxes and said - what the hey - lets make frames - made 10000 of them and 98% are still in my operation. BUT - I'll never do it again - still build boxes - and order Acorn frames


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

sakhoney said:


> 15 years ago I got my hands on some free wood/scrap - cut outs from making boxes and said - what the hey - lets make frames - made 10000 of them and 98% are still in my operation. BUT - I'll never do it again - still build boxes - and order Acorn frames


10000? Wow, I can't imagine. I'd still be having nightmares!


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

yea - it was quit a pile of sticks - here what I did my last hitch home


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

sakhoney said:


> View attachment 26603
> View attachment 26602
> yea - it was quit a pile of sticks - here what I did my last hitch home


I hope you had some help...yikes.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

yea - I did - but don't they look good?


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

sakhoney said:


> yea - I did - but don't they look good?


Very nice indeed.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Sak, 5/4 tops and bottoms? Do you glue the boards together or just let the bees fill the voids with propolis?


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Just let the bees fill them


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

Started with a some scrap 2x8 and 1x4, probably a boards worth of each, played around on the table saw for a couple hours. Cut enough for about 30 frames and they came out pretty good, consistently square and easy to put together. These are for the Dadant depth hives, pic shows a medium across the bottom. Prelim torture tests say the gonna do the deal barring a truck running over them


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## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

Joe Hillmann said:


> I figure if a hive can be built using just top bars then this is stronger and has more support than that.


Exactly! However, if you can get more strength out of an easy joint why not? You could notch the bottom ends of the top bar and use that step to staple and glue your end bar to it. While you are cutting your top bar notch you could give it the angle it needs to help it from sticking to the frame support member. The thicker the top bar the better the joint would be. I sketched a couple of options. I think I like the one with the narrower end bars better. 

Narrower End Bar (bigger notch in top bar):








Thicker End Bar (smaller notch in top bar):








Also, I was considering upholstery nails or tacks for spacers. I like the spacer idea because if ever wanted to change bar spacing all I have to do is change the spacers. Then I thought square head wood screws would be even easier. Nevertheless, I would probably go with the 11/16" diameter ones upholstery tacks. Oh and I would likely alternate the spacer location like Michael suggested in an earlier post. I saw a few upholstery tack options in eBay. Here is a pic. 









BTW, it looks like I'll be making my own frames because I intend to use 1x12 to make a hive.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I make all my own frames because I want them stronger than the factory ones, which seem to get lighter every year.

It takes quite a bit of time, so I don't recommend it unless you want custom frames for some reason (and I like narrow frames in the brood nest, only way to get them is to make them). Also takes a large collection of woodworking equipment, and if you don't have it, you can buy a lifetime's worth of frames for what decent equipment costs these days.

Standard Hoffman frames are about as good as they get (and British National are quite similar in construction). Don't underestimate the amount of force it takes to get well stuck frames out, it's quite common for me to "find" frames from other people in my hives when they were not glued while being assembled -- it's quite easy to pull the top bar off if it's only nailed on, and once you pull it loose, the nails have no holding power any more. Have to take them apart and apply glue, which is a pain.

Properly made, frames assemble square and flat with very little effort. Made wonky, it's impossible to get them together right.

Peter


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

If you find they do come apart, it's nothing a router table would fix real quick


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

I don't know man. These ones I put together 2 days ago are pretty stout for as easy as they were to make. I can get the endbars to get out of alignment but it takes a lot of pulling. With using spacer buttons and having no frame to frame contact, I'm just not seeing a potential problem. But I have ate crow before and can handle it with the best of them


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## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

dtrooster said:


> I don't know man. These ones I put together 2 days ago are pretty stout for as easy as they were to make. I can get the endbars to get out of alignment but it takes a lot of pulling. With using spacer buttons and having no frame to frame contact, I'm just not seeing a potential problem. But I have ate crow before and can handle it with the best of them


They do look strong considering the simplicity. Did you end up stapling at a 45 degree angle like mentioned in post #7? If so, could you share a picture of that? Also, what staple size did you use?


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

No, the top bar step is 3/4" so I just shot 3 in from the side and 1 in from the top. 1.25" 1/4 crown staples and titebond 3 glue. See what happens


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