# Mite counts still high after OAV - 5x5



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I've had absolute garbage luck with OAV. But I keep trying, even bought the ProVap (which is an awesome tool). I remain unconvinced, however. 
I don't know if it's humidity or what. Have had great luck with Apivar, though. With MAQS the results seem really hit and miss.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Davidr, did you see large mite drops after treatment. I have had this experience before and came to the conclusion that I was not getting good coverage of the inside of the hive boxes and I went and did a second regimen of treatments which brought my mite counts down to an acceptable count. I have always maintained that one needs to check for mites after the treatment regimen to prevent losing hives from mites thinking that your treatment has taken care of the problem. I sometimes treat my colonies with OAV up to 12 times per year to make sure they are low on mites. I also have a theory that the vapor has to displace the air within the hive boxes and sometimes does not get good spread in the upper boxes as most of the air leaks out downwards through the bottom board area. There is also another possibility that you are importing mites from other colonies around you. As to the use of formic I would be a little careful in temps over 80F.
Johno


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## mybodyisatemple76 (Jul 30, 2017)

I hope someone more experienced chimes in with a good respond for you because I'm seeing the same thing you are I ran 4 rounds of oav 5 days apart on 20 hives thru july and still had 2 hives with 6% on washes and 4 hives with a 3% washes and the other 14 were under 1% but i dont think it was because the oav i think it more had to do with the hives i split with a cell after the flow(the 14 with low counts) and that all the hives with low mite counts are daughters from my good Russian queen or the daughter of the cut out I did which her mite counts have never been over 5 mites in a 300 bee wash so I think that has more do do with the low percentages on the 14 than the oav working and the hives that had a 6% after the 4 rounds of oav in the wash before I did the treatment had a 3% and the other 4 hives with the 3% just stayed even from before and after treatment I wish I would have did a wash before and after now i was planning on using Formic pro on the ones with the 6% I figure they need something that will be quick since it's getting late I would think that apivar would take to long with counts over 5% hope you get some help from someone experienced i will be following the thread


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## mybodyisatemple76 (Jul 30, 2017)

johno said:


> Davidr, did you see large mite drops after treatment. I have had this experience before and came to the conclusion that I was not getting good coverage of the inside of the hive boxes and I went and did a second regimen of treatments which brought my mite counts down to an acceptable count.
> Johno


 Johno that could be part of my problem and David r-va not sure for him but I didn't seal the entrances up good or for long after treatment. But why did you think you weren't getting good coverage? do you seal up entrances after ? I guess what I'm asking is how do you get a good coverage?


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## davidr-va (Apr 9, 2016)

johno said:


> Davidr, did you see large mite drops after treatment. I have had this experience before and came to the conclusion that I was not getting good coverage of the inside of the hive boxes and I went and did a second regimen of treatments which brought my mite counts down to an acceptable count. I have always maintained that one needs to check for mites after the treatment regimen to prevent losing hives from mites thinking that your treatment has taken care of the problem. I sometimes treat my colonies with OAV up to 12 times per year to make sure they are low on mites. I also have a theory that the vapor has to displace the air within the hive boxes and sometimes does not get good spread in the upper boxes as most of the air leaks out downwards through the bottom board area. There is also another possibility that you are importing mites from other colonies around you. As to the use of formic I would be a little careful in temps over 80F.
> Johno


You raise several good points. I tested after the fourth treatment, just yesterday. I also applied the fifth treatment yesterday based upon what I was seeing.

As far as other colonies that's interesting. My neighbor lets a beekeeper keep 7 hives in his yard. That beekeeper is very experienced and his hives were overrun with mites 2-3 weeks ago. In desperation he slapped in MAQS as some hives were at 16%. He told me that dropped his infestation levels by 93% so it looks like he got his under control. It's possible that my hives picked up more mites from his hives before/during the MAQS treatment but I'd hoped that with his coming under control and me applying regular OAV treatments these past two weeks that things would look better.

I do see vapor coming from my bottom boards and occasionally around the towels I use to stuff the entrance. I'll pay more attention to it next time I treat. Have you found anything effective to seal the hive up better?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

A very experienced beekeeper next to you just did something that was extremely effective, yet you continue repeating something that has failed you and has been proven to be ineffective time and time again ?


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## davidr-va (Apr 9, 2016)

msl said:


> A very experienced beekeeper next to you just did something that was extremely effective, yet you continue repeating something that has failed you and has been proven to be ineffective time and time again rather then learn from the example?


I've never used MAQS but the beekeeper next door referred to it as "chemotherapy". I've also discussed it with other beekeepers who refer to it as hard on the bees - dead brood, failed/dead queens, and Randy Oliver in his review refers to the grass dying in front of the hives he tested with. Extremely effective but also pretty scary from a collateral damage standpoint. If that's the only solution I'll do it but I'm hoping to get some opinions on other treatments that might be effective. If formic is the only way to recover the hives then I'll do it this weekend.


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## mybodyisatemple76 (Jul 30, 2017)

msl said:


> A very experienced beekeeper next to you just did something that was extremely effective, yet you continue repeating something that has failed you and has been proven to be ineffective time and time again ?


what would you do on this hive if it were a nuc where Formic wasn't recommended or if you are in a place like I am where temps will be borderline 85 all week.i think a lot of people are scared to lose there queen if they only have a few hives I'd probably not even think of using Formic if I didn't have mating nuc with queens in them that need a home before winter vecause of that im gonna use formic on the ones with really high counts thay arnt nucs even tho temps will be close to highest recommended temps but then what do you do if you have a nuc and Formic isn't reccomended?


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## davidr-va (Apr 9, 2016)

Oh one other point I forgot to mention. I sampled one of the hives (just had two then) a month ago and it was at .8% (3 mites, 355 bee sample) so I'm suspecting drifting/robbing as well as reduced population causing things to skyrocket. I have four hives now and I started the OAV cycle assuming that I'd see things get worse.


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## davidr-va (Apr 9, 2016)

mybodyisatemple76 said:


> Johno that could be part of my problem and David r-va not sure for him but I didn't seal the entrances up good or for long after treatment. But why did you think you weren't getting good coverage? do you seal up entrances after ? I guess what I'm asking is how do you get a good coverage?


Here's what I've been doing regarding sealing the hive up. All my hives are ratchet strapped top to bottom so the boxes are tight. I put a sheet or towel draped over the top to limit the leakage from there. With my bottom entrance hives I stuff a rag in the opening as best as possible. I definitely see leakage around that at the corners...difficult to get a good seal there. For my top entrance hives I open the bottom and vaporize from there using rags to seal both entrances.

My vaporizer recommends 2 1/2 minutes to vaporize (and I do see complete vaporization during that time, no residue left), 2 minutes in the hive with power off and then 10 minutes with the hive remaining sealed. So in total my hives are closed up for 14 1/2 minutes when I vaporize.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> I've had absolute garbage luck with OAV. But I keep trying, even bought the ProVap (which is an awesome tool). I remain unconvinced, however.
> I don't know if it's humidity or what. Have had great luck with Apivar, though. With MAQS the results seem really hit and miss.


Hi JW, do you mean you're doing sugar or alcohol counts and still getting very high numbers? Are you monitoring mite falls? Thanks for any info.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> I sampled one of the hives (just had two then) a month ago





> (5 treatments 5 days apart) across four hives


I am having trouble flowing your time line.
were did the other 2 hives come form? and if you had 0.8 at 30 days why start treatments 5 days later?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Davidr when I vaporize I want to see the vapor coming out of the top as well as the bottom of the hives then I know that the vapor is covering most of the inside of the boxes. Some guys are making a shim and using their pan vaporizers from the top however with my type I just vaporize from a 1/4" hole above the second brood box. Now the problem with formic acid is that you could lose queens and bees as temperature is important among other things. I gave up on formic as the results were never consistent. You can do another round of treatments with OA as the OAV does not seem to effect the colony except with the pan type you could fry a few bees. When you have completed a round of treatments always check for mites even if it is from a sticky board after your last treatment. But it is always possible to get re infested from neighboring hives.
Johno


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I use full-sized Bounty paper towels to close up my bottom entrance around the Varrox wand.

It takes five towels for 10-frames hives and four for 8-frame hives. 

In a 10-frame stack, a single towel covers the stalk of the wand, and the other two pairs are on either side of it. Having a single towel around the stalk area allows me to withdraw the wand with minimal leakage of the "vapors" before the 10 min. closed-in period. It's a bit trickier to do that cleanly on 8-frame equipment.

SBB above solid boards and all slots taped shut. Upper entrance (a 1" diameter hole in a shim) plugged with a plastic plug. Any noticeable leaking between boxes is taped shut on the fly. 3-M Original Blue Painter's tape is my stickum of choice.

If you've still got high numbers, slap on some MAQS/Formic Pro as soon as you have the temps for it. Low temps (within the max temp range) are the key to queen safety IMO. You can even use a half dose to knock 'em down for now and repeat a few weeks later.

As much as I like and depend on OAV, I don't think an endless series of treatments is a good idea. Four, or maybe five, and I give it a rest and will look for something else as a stop-gap.

Right now, if you've got the low-80s (max daily high) temps for it, MAQS/Formic Pro is a better choice for treating than OAV because it gets the mites under the cappings, can be used without regard for harvestable supers being on the hive, and as a bonus it will whack down any tracheal mites that have sneaked into your hives under the cover of the Varroa-hysteria. And it only takes a week.

Just make sure to follow the directions exactly, including how much packaging is to be removed (hint: not as much as people sometimes think) before placing the slabs. And of course follow the ventilation requirements to the letter. Your bees may not be happy for a few days, but think of their long-term health, not their short-term grumpiness. Be sure to confirm queenrightness a week or so after treatment ends. (Don't wait until queens are hard to find/raise.) Be sure to confirm lower mites numbers, as well.

But don't consider even a well-timed MAQS as the end of your treatment-needs. You need to keep monitoring, and if necessary treating from now until Christmas. From mid-Fall onward (when the queen risk of using MAQS is heightened by the difficulty of discovering and remedying any queen loss due to MAQS increases) I use OAV, as needed. Ending up with the Most Important Treatment of the Entire Year: the broodless one after the Solstice. Getting that one done right on time sets you up for a much easier time of it next season, particularly if you are in the north where your bees will be confined to your apiary from December through most of March. Think of it - that's almost a third of the year when your bees will essentially have a holiday from mites and the troubles they bring. Priceless!

Nancy


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## davidr-va (Apr 9, 2016)

msl said:


> I am having trouble flowing your time line.
> were did the other 2 hives come form? and if you had 0.8 at 30 days why start treatments 5 days later?


Yup, I wasn't very clear. A month ago I had two hives. A local beekeeper was retiring to Florida and I acquired two more hives from him so I went from 2 to 4 right after I took my first sample. Although I was at .8 I felt like two things pushed me to go ahead and treat...

1) This was my first time doing an alcohol wash on my own. I've read, watched youtube, talked with folks, and been mentored in it but had never done it before. Coupled with the factor below I thought it was prudent to start a treatment regardless.

2) Previously I've lost hives to mites as colonies around me collapsed. The past two years I've had other folks hives collapse around mine and that's usually resulted in losses of my own several months later as bees drift, rob, etc. I'm learning so based on that experience, given the mite load next door and the likelihood of hives failing, I thought it was prudent to run a course of treatments somewhat in parallel with what he was doing. In some regard, view the hives as the "same" yard in terms of treatments but I started about a week later due to travel/life etc. I went with OAV because the weather wasn't great for MAQS (temp's forecasted in the high to mid 90's and I wanted something with less side effects.

Hope that helps. I've talked with several more folks and am leaning towards applying formic this weekend. The weather isn't perfect but it's forecast to be okay for about a week and a half. Low to mid-80's for the key first three days.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

David, the weather channel has us mid to upper 80s after Friday so you may be good for Formic Pro. Really suprised mite counts are so high after 5 rounds. What kind of drops were you getting? OAV is working well so far for me but I look for drops and haven't done alcohol washes. My follow up to the OAV is Apivar which goes in two weeks from now. Last year a lot of people treated at the beginning of August and were mite crashing in early November. I'm switching it up this year, OAV first, followed by the Apivar, then another round of OAV in November after the hive goes broodless.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> but I look for drops and haven't done alcohol washes


drops tell you your killing mites, washes tell you what the effect is, this is why I don't like drops 
Ie if you are rolling 10% on a hive with 50k bees thats around 250 mites a day emerging from the brood ... you can do a round of treatments, drop 5,000 mites and be back were you started in a mounth even tho you "saw a lot of dead mites"
drop 8,000 and be back were you started in 2.5 mounths
9000 and be at 10% in 3.5 months 
rather then trying to figger out if you killed 5000, 8000, or 9000... a post treatment wash showing 5%, 2%, or 1% (respectability) is easier to interpret for most and often much more acceracte 


davidr-va not challenging your disstion to treat, just wanting to under stand the processes behind it( witch is spot on in my book) helps me tailor the advice to suit you... 

I am going to go out on a limb and say the 0.8 was an off test, to pump that much OVA and be 3% or higher a month later seems off. Even with out treatment and at the high end what study's have shown for reinfection rates it would be a stretch. 

you have plenty of outher options then formic pro 
you could fly back split and OAV each side when broodless, you could OA trickle, apivar, pinch your queens and order resistant stock hit them broodless, etc


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I use old holey wet socks to close off the entrances when I use my OAV wand.Dry they leak OAV but wet very like OAV leaking out.If you are like myself you have plenty of holey socks!!! OAV has done good for me.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

davidr-va said:


> I've run a course of treatments (5 treatments 5 days apart) across four hives and did an alcohol wash yesterday. The results weren't encouraging...


What sort of device are you using?
My limited experience with oav during brooding has not been consistent. At this point, I don’t trust it. I do a midwinter oav when brooding is at a minimum but I also need a serious knockdown during the season….sometimes two knockdowns.
I use tried and true treatments….either Apiguard or Apivar. Apiguard during high heat is disruptive but I still use it for colonies that aren’t yet showing significant pms. Apivar is the least disruptive and I use it on any colonies that appear to be in any sort of distress.
I’ve not used MAQS.


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## HONEYGUY1973 (Jan 31, 2018)

snapper1d said:


> I use old holey wet socks to close off the entrances when I use my OAV wand.Dry they leak OAV but wet very like OAV leaking out.If you are like myself you have plenty of holey socks!!! OAV has done good for me.


I'm not having this problem either .. I actually went out and checked yesterday evening after reading this post and found ZERO MITES (3 random hives ) . Alcohol wash off of brood frame for you non believers.. Provap 110 does its job just keep treating you will see results.. Close up your entrances . Joe May sent bees to Maryland last year from dead outs for testing and had zero mites for all you naysayers.. Ian Steppler sees results as well. OAV works period.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

HONEYGUY1973 said:


> OAV works period.


Since you write with such authority on the subject...just so the rest of us 'newbees' can appreciate your credentials....how long have you kept bees and how many hives?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

e-spice said:


> Hi JW, do you mean you're doing sugar or alcohol counts and still getting very high numbers? Are you monitoring mite falls? Thanks for any info.


I do not monitor well enough, so I can't give you specific numbers. I just know my bees still have PLENTY of mites after a course of OAV, in years past I opened boxes right before doing the 4th treatment (with a wand) and saw some mites in almost capped drone brood. So I dug through a bunch of it and found up to 6 mites in some cells. In total I popped 100-some drone cells and found 250-some mites. There's obviously a lot of factors here, but it seems hit/miss as other times I've done one treatment and a few days later the bottom board is littered with mites with piles of them in the corners. Maybe I'm too dumb and just can't get it right. But it isn't a silver bullet for me, and I'm wondering if it's a bullet at all. Even though ApiVar is expensive, the limiting factor for me is time and ApiVar saves me gobs of it, including trips to the beeyard. 

If you're talking about MAQS similar observations, but sometimes it seems to work. I've tried hashing this out before, but not sure how to wrap my head around it. Even this time of year my big colonies have 6-7 frames of capped worker brood including a frame of drones. This year, I've taken to scraping drone cappings off when I find a frame full of them. Most colonies look good enough mite-wise. I have 1-2 frames of foundationless drone comb in most big colonies and I suspect that helps mite loads balloon around mid-June every year. Scraping them out seems to have shifted that a bit later, so I'm hoping I hit the treatments about right. Got Apivar in all of them 30-some Saturday AM and then took care of the last 20 or so on Tuesday. I'll try to OAV a couple of times while broodless this winter. I have no doubt that OAV works for many... MAQS as well. But for much of the bee season here we have extremely high humidity. I've seen more than a few references from bee keepers much more experienced than I who claim to have issues with MAQS in humidity. And OAV having access to ambient humidity, in my head, would make its effectiveness less in terms of amount of time it's active in the hive. 

If I had more time I'd do a wash before each OAV and one after the whole course of treatments on a few big hives just to prove it to myself. 

I've used a wand in the past and now own a ProVap 110. I'm not bad-mouthing the ProVap, that thing is absolutely awesome.


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## mybodyisatemple76 (Jul 30, 2017)

HONEYGUY1973 said:


> snapper1d said:
> 
> 
> > I use old holey wet socks to close off the entrances when I use my OAV wand.Dry they leak OAV but wet very like OAV leaking out.If you are like myself you have plenty of holey socks!!! OAV has done good for me.
> ...


And what were your counts on those hives before treatment I had 14 hives out of 20 with under 2 mites in a 300 bee count after 4 round oav and somme with 0 per wash i also had 2 colonys with 17 mites per wash 1 hive with 10 per and another 2 hives with 6 mites and 1 hive with 8 mites per wash and the 17 mite count hives were at 9 mites per wash on the first week of July then after four round treatment doubled second week of August still it may have worked on some of my colonys but not all I didn't wash them all before I started treatment only a few in each yard check them all and make sure. I'm not saying it does not work just wasn't consistent for me probably partially my fault. I, like you did a few washes and even posted on another thread I thought it was w9rking till I did one on all my hives. O and the one that had 10 mites after treatment had 6 before I started treatment in July and the other one with 8 had 7 before treatment so did it work? Not saying it didnt work for you tho just giving my experience so far.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Unfortunately there is so much guesswork when you are doing mite washes on 300 bees as we do not really know how many mites are under the brood at that time. If the colony is low on brood the count could end up higher than if there is a lot of brood available, the movement of mites is another unknown factor. Then there is the hive or hives close by with a wash count of 18% which could be figured as a total infestation of 80% which is very high, then the belief that a formic acid treatment destroyed 93% of the mites. When you have many hives not under your control it will always be a problem. In the long term it might be worth your while to do a treatment with Apivar, expensive but as you do not have many hives quite doable but I would still do a couple of OAV treatments in November and December to make sure you have a clean start in spring.
Johno


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I've been using OAV very successfully for about 12 years or so. Based on my own personal experience I don't see how there could be many surviving mites following a series of 5 treatments - 5 days apart. 

In my opinion, FWIW, I think there has to be some other factor in play that is undetected and being overlooked. Mite bombs in the region, defective vaporizer or acid, improper application methods. I doubt that poor results would be tied to the OAV itself being ineffective. My guess is that it's a procedural issue or an external problem. 

I've been keeping bees long enough to know that every region is unique and there is not a standard rule that fits everything. I have no vested interest in OA, I'm just expressing my own successful experience with OAV in my beeyards, and encourage others to look outside the box and keep an open mind before giving up on it if the results are not acceptable.


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## Kuro (Jun 18, 2015)

In my hands, OAV never worked to my satisfaction (i.e, post OAV mite drop after the last vaporization is at least 10 fold lower than that after the first vaporization, 5x5 or 4x6 or 3x8), except when there is not much brood (mid November- late January here) or during brood break after split. I use MAQS or apivar in summer-fall.


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

msl said:


> drops tell you your killing mites, washes tell you what the effect is, this is why I don't like drops
> Ie if you are rolling 10% on a hive with 50k bees thats around 250 mites a day emerging from the brood ... you can do a round of treatments, drop 5,000 mites and be back were you started in a mounth even tho you "saw a lot of dead mites"
> drop 8,000 and be back were you started in 2.5 mounths
> 9000 and be at 10% in 3.5 months
> ...


Someone gets it


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Lots of variables of course, but has anyone considered the time of day when the OAV is done? With 5-7 days between treatments, the foragers are bringing in new mites. Without any evidence whatsoever, I do mine in the early morning before they are flying so I am not only hitting the new bees, but the foragers who have been out and about for 5-7 days since my last treatment. If you do your OAV when the foragers are out, you could be failing to treat thousands of bees who are bringing in mites daily, especially if they are out robbing other hives. Since we really don't know how much exposure to OA is necessary to kill a mite, I could be wrong. But most articles I have read suggests that OA breaks down quickly. If that's so, foragers may not get any exposure while it is effective unless you treat while they are in the hive. This may be the reason why the "shop towel" method looks more promising. Just a thought. J


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## davidr-va (Apr 9, 2016)

JWPalmer said:


> David, the weather channel has us mid to upper 80s after Friday so you may be good for Formic Pro. Really suprised mite counts are so high after 5 rounds. What kind of drops were you getting? OAV is working well so far for me but I look for drops and haven't done alcohol washes. My follow up to the OAV is Apivar which goes in two weeks from now. Last year a lot of people treated at the beginning of August and were mite crashing in early November. I'm switching it up this year, OAV first, followed by the Apivar, then another round of OAV in November after the hive goes broodless.


Mite drops were fairly low during OAV. I wasn't diligent in checking (that was dumb...but figured the alcohol wash would tell me the full story). The day after the first treatment I saw around 100 dead mites on the hive that I had sampled with an alcohol wash earlier. After it's second treatment I saw two days of about 100 dead mites. The third day was much lighter only about 30. After the fifth treatment I checked the boards 3 days post and saw 200-300 dead mites on each board.

I did Apivar last year (mid-August) but didn't do alcohol washes and would up losing hives in late October/early November. I was definitely around collapsing untreated hives that year. I wished I had done a post Apivar wash to determine it's effectiveness but didn't.


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## davidr-va (Apr 9, 2016)

Fivej said:


> Lots of variables of course, but has anyone considered the time of day when the OAV is done? With 5-7 days between treatments, the foragers are bringing in new mites. Without any evidence whatsoever, I do mine in the early morning before they are flying so I am not only hitting the new bees, but the foragers who have been out and about for 5-7 days since my last treatment. If you do your OAV when the foragers are out, you could be failing to treat thousands of bees who are bringing in mites daily, especially if they are out robbing other hives. Since we really don't know how much exposure to OA is necessary to kill a mite, I could be wrong. But most articles I have read suggests that OA breaks down quickly. If that's so, foragers may not get any exposure while it is effective unless you treat while they are in the hive. This may be the reason why the "shop towel" method looks more promising. Just a thought. J


I've been doing mine, for the most part, mid to late afternoon. I generally see the most bees "hanging out" around then with the least activity this time of year. Early morning or evening is probably better timing.


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## davidr-va (Apr 9, 2016)

I don't disagree that OAV works but in this specific situation it's not working for me. It doesn't appear that I was able to kill mites fast enough to keep up with other issues like robbing, drifting, etc. Speculation on my part, that's for sure, but trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong either in the application or the configuration of my hives. OAV is an investment both in time and money. I've made that investment just need to figure out how to make it work.

Somebody asked what device I use. It's a Varrox https://oxavap.com/product/varrox-heavy-duty-oxalic-acid-vaporizer/.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Davidr, it appears that apivar did not work for you either, so I would not be too quick to blame OAV as I think you might have other mite infestation problems. You are going to have to work twice as hard to be able to kill every one else's mites as well as your own.
Johno


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## MichiganMike (Mar 25, 2014)

davidr-va said:


> You raise several good points. I tested after the fourth treatment, just yesterday. I also applied the fifth treatment yesterday based upon what I was seeing.
> 
> As far as other colonies that's interesting. My neighbor lets a beekeeper keep 7 hives in his yard. That beekeeper is very experienced and his hives were overrun with mites 2-3 weeks ago. In desperation he slapped in MAQS as some hives were at 16%. He told me that dropped his infestation levels by 93% so it looks like he got his under control. It's possible that my hives picked up more mites from his hives before/during the MAQS treatment but I'd hoped that with his coming under control and me applying regular OAV treatments these past two weeks that things would look better.
> I do see vapor coming from my bottom boards and occasionally around the towels I use to stuff the entrance. I'll pay more attention to it next time I treat. Have you found anything effective to seal the hive up better?


I use foam strips that are sold to seal up window ac’s to seal my hives.


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## mybodyisatemple76 (Jul 30, 2017)

What's your plan for your hives David. I got some maqs and one pack of apivar. I was gonna use maqs on the hive with the 6% and apivar in the ones with a 3% and may do a OAD on nucs with 2% and some of the other hives and keep alcohol washing over next weeks. I've not given up on vaporizer. I'm gonna use it in winter but I just think it will be easier to do a dribble for now to know I'm getting all the OA in the hives and I think it will be faster than sealing up the hives for me.I'm putting my treatments on in morning if it's not pouring rain.I think I'm gonna do the one strip at a time with maqs tho . What are you doing David?


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## davidr-va (Apr 9, 2016)

mybodyisatemple76 said:


> What's your plan for your hives David. I got some maqs and one pack of apivar. I was gonna use maqs on the hive with the 6% and apivar in the ones with a 3% and may do a OAD on nucs with 2% and some of the other hives and keep alcohol washing over next weeks. I've not given up on vaporizer. I'm gonna use it in winter but I just think it will be easier to do a dribble for now to know I'm getting all the OA in the hives and I think it will be faster than sealing up the hives for me.I'm putting my treatments on in morning if it's not pouring rain.I think I'm gonna do the one strip at a time with maqs tho . What are you doing David?


I picked up MAQS on Thursday so I’m fairly ready to put that in. At this point I just need the weather to cooperate. Sunday’s forecast has changed from 82 to 86 followed by days at 85 and 84. Not feeling great about those temps but Thursday, Friday, and next Saturday are forecast at 80, 83, and 84. I’m thinking that I’ll do another OAV treatment tomorrow and put MAQS in on Thursday. For tomorrow’s treatment I may treat the hives from the top and see if I can seal things better. Long story but I used to treat from the top and already have a shim built for it. 

I still have quite a few MAQS questions so that also gives me some time to get those answers.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

David, I strongly suspect you are picking up mites from the other hives you mentioned are near you. I am afraid that even with the maqs or formic pro, you will have a significant numer of mites on your next wash, or the one after that. Be diligent in the treatments and make sure you are using the correct amount of OA for the size of your hives.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

JW his mite issue seems to be far beyond immigration issues, your talking 200-300 hundred a week, don't get me wrong it has an impact and will bomb out untreated hives... but at 10% he is making 250 or so a day on his own. 

his methods seem good, as does his equipment... that leaves the acid.. brushy mt, savion wood bleach, or amazon? 
next step is to load the vaporizer and run it out side and watch, mabe the OA has absorbed water in the OP's moist climate and is sputtering and getting tossed of out the pan. 

Not so random thought, OAV has failed, rather then repeat and hope the 6th time is the charm, hit them with a shot of trickle, *and *use a different OA source. Take all the old variables of failure and toss them out the window.


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## mybodyisatemple76 (Jul 30, 2017)

msl said:


> Not so random thought, OAV has failed, rather then repeat and hope the 6th time is the charm, hit them with a shot of trickle, *and *use a different OA source. Take all the old variables of failure and toss them out the window.


I didn't think about using different OA source . I'm gonna try that next time .I used the florida lab this year. last year I used the brushy mountain still have a little left might use what's left of the brushy mountain OA. I hope the oav works from the top for you David but for me I think msl knows what he is talkin about and im not gonna take the chance of repeating so I'm gonna try the dribble if I use anymore oa with brood.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

> Mite drops were fairly low during OAV.... The day after the first treatment I saw around 100 dead mites on the hive that I had sampled with an alcohol wash earlier. After it's second treatment I saw two days of about 100 dead mites. The third day was much lighter only about 30.


With infestation rates as high as your alcohol washes indicate these low post treatment mite drop counts would suggest to me that I should be taking a closer look at the vaporization method, rather than a mite bomb issue. Your mite drop counts should be much higher than this, especially after the first round. 





> I've been doing mine, for the most part, mid to late afternoon. I generally see the most bees "hanging out" around then with the least activity this time of year. Early morning or evening is probably better timing.


Treatment timing is the first thing I would suggest that you consider changing to eliminate one possibility for the lack of effectiveness you are seeing with OAV. I like to make sure I treat every bee in the hive during the series. I go to the yard just before daylight and stuff screen in the hive entrances to keep all of the bees contained before they become active at sunrise. When the sun comes up I'll work my way down the row and am certain that every single bee in each colony has been exposed to the acid crystals during vaporization.


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## B-NewBBB (Apr 9, 2014)

MichiganMike said:


> I use foam strips that are sold to seal up window ac’s to seal my hives.


Actually this is a general input to the entire thread, from our 6 hive apiary. What works for us may not work for others & visa-versa.


1. We use the Wood Bleach crystals from Home Depot. We use a Varrox vaporizer.
2. Early in day we put an aluminum sheet, cut from a roll of aluminum (flashing, sold by Home Depot & others) and cut to go edge to edge on the screened bottom board and extending out just past the "porch" of the entranceway. Spray with coating of canola oil. Allow bees to settle in to the presence of this intrusion.
3. Wait till sunset when getting darker when most foragers are back. BTW now our bees are bearding and/or washboarding in front so we don't do this in the hotter summer weather.)
4. Have a bucket of water, several full sized dish towels that have been soaked in water and all other gear ready at hand. A friend helps but I can do 6 hives on my own pretty quick.
5. Drape one end of the wet towel over side edge of porch, quickly slide the loaded Varrox unit into the hive and quickly lay the wet towel across its arm and the entranceway & stuff it tight to cover all escape routes. The corners and right over where the vaporizer arm enters are the most likely escapes so that's were a friend really helps. (4 hands, if coordinated, better than 2.)
6. Timer ready & set at 2 1/2 min-hit start and stand well back & upwind. Nasty crap those fumes.
7. About 1/2 way through the run smoke clearly coming out both top & bottom and any gaps in the boxes. We have popsicle sticks glued to the underside of the top cover for ventilation and plenty of smoke vapor shows.
8. Wear proper mask or hyperventilate during this time so you can hold your breath easily & run up to the battery, unclip the vaporizer and scoot away. Then build up your breath again scoot back, carefully pull the vaporizer with as little disturbance to the seal made by the towel as possible, resetting it tightly as needed (again, 4 hands help a lot). Wait 10 min, pull towel out, leave the oil coated metal sheet for next day drop count.

I feel the use of the bottom metal sheet, the secure sealing of the entrance with a SOAKED WET towel and enough ventilation for the chimney effect to allow the vapors to quickly rise to the top of the have has made this work for us.

We alternate other methods such a MAQS, Hopguard II, Apivar but the OAV is our go to solution until it fails.

No hive losses in 6 years. Is this a solution for you???? Ask 1 question to 100 beekeepers and get 400 answers that they swear are the best and only way to go. We're dumb old geezers with failing memories, we listen, try, forget & do best we can. Listen to the bees. 

You may have to try different routes and keep away from just one type of treatment.

Thass all folks.

DH


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## davidr-va (Apr 9, 2016)

Thanks everyone for your input. I'd like to consolidate everyone's advice and see if I can't start eliminating variables. Here's what I've heard on OAV:

1 . Time of day - early morning is best.
2 . Acid - Mine is from Brushy Mountain in 2014 or 2015. I have been careless with storing it though. Although it's double bagged it's been in a garage or shed the whole time.
3 . Dribble vs. vaporization
4 . Seal the hive better
5 . Vaporize from the top

Here's my thinking. I can't test out ideas 2 & 3 without some delay to get stuff - new acid and/or a syringe/measuring bottle for the dribble. I already have the equipment for vaporizing from the top but, based on the input here, I need to make sure it's more airtight than it is...so that's a bit of a delay. I have everything I need to seal the hive better (although I am short on holey socks...tossed them, didn't know they'd come in handy ). I wasn't able to treat today due to the other appointments and the weather so I can test #1.

Tomorrow I'll test my acid as msl suggested and (unless it's a complete failure) I'll seal the hives better and treat from the bottom. I'm planning on stuffing each hives entrance with towels, insulation (AC stuff per MichiganMike), or whatever else I can find that will make a better seal than I've had in the past. I'll do that first thing in the morning and then start treating right after I get all four sealed up.

If I get an enormous mite drop then we can narrow things down to sealing or time of day...or both. Not ideal but I'll take it. If it doesn't I've got MAQS ready to go (weather willing) on Thursday. Even if I do get a tremendous mite drop I'm leaning towards putting MAQS in to vary my treatments anyway. I'll also order up some new acid for a December broodless treatment as I'm running low. Next time I OAV I'll test new acid and if that doesn't produce a good mite drop I'll test a dribble application.

Long post but does it make sense?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

As a matter of interest you should keep your MAQS refrigerated and have it as cool as possible when you put it into your hives as the low temperature cuts down on the volatility of the formic and it should not bother you much. Oxalic acid is oxalic acid and if it was bagged it should not change except to become lumpy which you can easily take care of.
Johno


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## davidr-va (Apr 9, 2016)

johno said:


> As a matter of interest you should keep your MAQS refrigerated and have it as cool as possible when you put it into your hives as the low temperature cuts down on the volatility of the formic and it should not bother you much. Oxalic acid is oxalic acid and if it was bagged it should not change except to become lumpy which you can easily take care of.
> Johno


Thanks John, I'll get those strips into the fridge tonight.


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## davidr-va (Apr 9, 2016)

Finished my treatment. OA tested well in the vaporizor. I saw one very small piece jump out of the bowl but everything else went up in smoke. Was neat to watch what was actually happening but for safety's sake I don't think I'll do that again. 

I sealed each hive around 6:15am with wet towels and then started treating. I watched carefully and I didn't see any real vapor escaping from anywhere other than the bottom board area and the top cover. It was interesting that the vapor from the top didn't start until well after the 2:30 minute mark. I suspect that was caused by it making it's way through the hive. The vapor from the bottom also didn't start until well past the 1 minute mark when the OA really started to vaporize and billow in my test.

I'll report some mite board counts tomorrow morning. Thanks again to everyone that's provided input, thoughts, and encouragement.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

davidr-va said:


> I'll report some mite board counts tomorrow morning.


I've noticed a delay of several days or more before the mites begin to fall out in large numbers. 
You might also want to check the drop each day for a few days.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Open the hive about 15 minutes after vaporizing. If the insides and bees are covered with “baby powder” OA, it’s in there and killing mites.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

beemandan said:


> I've noticed a delay of several days or more before the mites begin to fall out in large numbers.
> You might also want to check the drop each day for a few days.


Agreed. Usually my heaviest fall is on day 3.


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## davidr-va (Apr 9, 2016)

Apologies for the delay...been a bit crazy around here but I did get out to do mite counts first thing Monday morning and early this afternoon. These are sticky board counts. My hive that was the most infested (Eleanor - 11%) dropped 349 mites Monday and 113 today. The other hives counts looked like this (Monday/today) - Edith 180/97, Rose 248/94, Lucy 50/19.

While I was counting today the beekeeper next door was working. When we both finished we talked for a bit and he offered to show me how he does his alcohol washes...I eagerly accepted. We were able to get two hives done before the heavens opened up and it poured. We did Lucy and Rose. Lucy had 2 mites in a half cup sample and Rose had 10 in a half cup. 

Interesting (to me at least) observation, the hives are laid out in a line. Rose and Edith (with moderate but not over the threshold counts) are directly next to the hive (Eleanor) with the most mites. Good evidence for drifting of drones I suppose. Rose has almost no mites and she's on the end furthest from Eleanor.

Here's what I'm thinking at this point. Given that Lucy (2 mites), Rose (10 mites), and Edith (9 mites) aren't at the thresholds for treatment right now (15 mites per half cup - 5% - is what I was told was appropriate here at this time of year) I don't plan on treating them. I'll put MAQS in Eleanor on Thursday as she's well above threshold. I'll also check mite board drops again tomorrow to see if the fall increases for day 3 post OAV. I think that will be interesting to follow through tomorrow.

For fun, any guesses on how I name my hives?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Names of women from tv shows. Lucy, I Love Lucy. Edith, All in the Family. Rose, The Golden Girls, Eleanor, Father Knows Best or The Good Place.

Close?

I'm thinking that threshold limits are not to be followed. You have a hive with a high number of mites in your apiary. Treat them all as if they had the numbers of the highest hive. Keep track of drops. Those with the lowest may be next year's hives to split from.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

davidr-va said:


> Thanks everyone for your input. I'd like to consolidate everyone's advice and see if I can't start eliminating variables. Here's what I've heard on OAV:
> 
> 1 . Time of day - early morning is best.
> 2 . Acid - Mine is from Brushy Mountain in 2014 or 2015. I have been careless with storing it though. Although it's double bagged it's been in a garage or shed the whole time.
> ...


1. I used to believe the time did not matter but I now believe it does. The mites have to stay near the brood for reproduction and survival. Flying around on foragers increases the chance of falling off the bee in the middle of nowhere and they cannot reproduce if they are away from the brood area. Thus, if most of the mites are on nurse bees, treating the foragers is a waste of time and OA. If each bee has 1/2 of a square inch of total surface area (just a guess) and there are 10,000 foragers outside of the hive, treating when they are away reduces the surface area the OA needs to cover by 5,000 square inches and gives better coverage to the bees and mites inside the hive and a better kill rate. I cannot prove any of this but please poke holes in my logic if you can. I will not be offended. FYI, I may believe this is the case but the most important factor is actually getting the treatment done, not the time of day it happens. I treat when it is easiest for me to do it on the correct scheduled day.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Given that Lucy (2 mites), Rose (10 mites), and Edith (9 mites) aren't at the thresholds for treatment right now (15 mites per half cup - 5% - is what I was told was appropriate here at this time of year) I don't plan on treating them.


I think that's a huge mistake! :no:
all those phoric mites (97% of them) the wash is showing should be DEAD.... 
So either the treatment failed, or you have a massive mite load in the brood emerging daily or bolth.... mites spend around 4-6 days phoric when there is brood, so now that the OA is about done you would need to wait a week or so and re roll for a real number\ seeing what is coming up under the capping....I suggest you don't wait.... like your apavar treatment last year... It could be too little too late.... maybe dead hive walking hereinch:

ok so you have some numbers witch helps!!!!! al lot!!
lets work up rose 
so you killed 342 mites... and your still at 10 mites per 300 that is sketch 2 days post treatment 
ok I don't know the size of your hives... so lets low ball at 30K for spit ball numbers 
if we take your numbers 0.033*30,000*2 gives us a ballpark of 1980 mites in total left.. with 66% in brood and 33% phoric that says there are 653 mite on the bees right now... 80/20 would be 396
so either way you cut it the wash says there are more mites on the bees 2 days after treatment they you killed with the treatment  and that's on the low side as the 30k is huge low ball AND we know the wash % is super low compared to what it should be do to being 2 days post treatment and all the dead mites on the board


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## davidr-va (Apr 9, 2016)

JWPalmer said:


> Names of women from tv shows. Lucy, I Love Lucy. Edith, All in the Family. Rose, The Golden Girls, Eleanor, Father Knows Best or The Good Place.
> 
> Close?
> 
> I'm thinking that threshold limits are not to be followed. You have a hive with a high number of mites in your apiary. Treat them all as if they had the numbers of the highest hive. Keep track of drops. Those with the lowest may be next year's hives to split from.


Not close on the guess. Here's a hint - my family loves history. BTW, when my son was a new born we lived in South Carolina and The Golden Girls seemed to be on continuous loop there. I associate that show with screaming infants and sleep deprivation...


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

If you allow for Rosalynn being Rose, they are also all names of previous First Lady's.

Rosalynn Carter, Eleanore Roosevelt, Lucy Hayes, and Edith Wilson.


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## davidr-va (Apr 9, 2016)

JWPalmer said:


> If you allow for Rosalynn being Rose, they are also all names of previous First Lady's.
> 
> Rosalynn Carter, Eleanore Roosevelt, Lucy Hayes, and Edith Wilson.


Got it! Previously we've had Dolly, Abigail, and Jackie.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Whew! Thought I was losing my touch. Those other hive names would have been easier! Madison, Fillmore, and Kennedy. Actually, Dolly would have been the give-away. Cool.

Ddillon is naming his queens after various women in Star Trek and offshoots. I need to be more creative. Maybe ex-girlfriends? Would work out well when I needed to requeen.


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## TamTam (Jul 31, 2018)

B-NewBBB said:


> Actually this is a general input to the entire thread, from our 6 hive apiary. What works for us may not work for others & visa-versa.
> 
> 
> 1. We use the Wood Bleach crystals from Home Depot. We use a Varrox vaporizer.
> ...


Could you post a pic of how you put the metal flashing on the SBB please? Sorry, I'm a visual learner.....My SBB has rails that an insert sits on so not sure how to apply the aluminum sheet.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Tam Tam, the metal sheet is if you don't have a screened bottom board and still want to see mite drops. You slide it in through the entrance and leave it in place for a few days. When you want to count the dead mites, just pull out the sheet. No need to do this if you have a screened bottom board and the insert. Don't oil the metal sheet since the bees will be crawling on it.

No idea why B-NewBBB is using it with a SBB. Whatever works...


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## TamTam (Jul 31, 2018)

Thanks JW


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## davidr-va (Apr 9, 2016)

Just a quick update. I put MAQS in last Thursday. I'm traveling next week so I won't be able to check the hives until after that...hoping for no queen issues. The weather really cooperated so I'm optimistic.

As far as the OAV mite drops from that last treatment. They were really low on day three Edith 53, Eleanor 41, Lucy 42, and Rose 8. The last one makes sense since the last alcohol wash was so low but the rest don't make sense...particularly Eleanor. I have new acid from Brushy Mountain so I'll try that next time I treat (as needed this fall but certainly December/early January for the broodless shot).


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