# The Russian Scion



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

For years I kept a propolis/wax soaked burlap bag hanging in front of my hives about 8 feet off the ground. Over the years, it caught several swarms, and stayed there until it rotted away. 

Then when I started selling nucs about 2001 I did not replace it because my hives are split so often they don't get large enough to swarm any more. It is a good idea.

cchoganjr


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## shannonswyatt

Would this be better than a swarm trap in your apiary?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

shannonswyatt... Not really. I had it in addition to swarm boxes set out. 

It has an advantage of getting a fat queen that cannot fly very far to stop in an area where she and the swarm can be seen. But, it needs to be checked about every day to see if a swarm has settled on it. 

Sometimes swarms are difficult to spot if they are in trees, honeysuckly or blackberry vines, And if they do settle on your burlap bag, you still have to put them in a box. In a swarm box they go in on their own and all you have to do is add frames and wait for the queen to lay a few eggs, then move to where you want them. 

It is just one more tool to help you in the event one of your hives swarms, or a neighbor's hive swarms and comes looking at yours.

cchoganjr


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## shannonswyatt

I need to see if that little girl has any free time to help me build one or two. Can't get my kids of the computers!


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## Ketuel

I am getting ready to make 3 splits from my Italian hives so I can introduce 3 Russian queens. Any advice will be greatly appreciated. How often do Russians swarm? 
Ketuel


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## jwcarlson

Interesting... I like the concept. Trying to decide if it's less of a hassle than just doing a swarm trap, I wouldn't have a hive tied up this way and certainly easier to build... My hives aren't really in an area that people are checking frequently enough to make this feasible probably. I'd have to talk with the landowners into checking daily which in some cases wouldn't be a problem.
My initial thought is that this should be almost a hood ornament for anyone with a top bar hive. 



shannonswyatt said:


> I need to see if that little girl has any free time to help me build one or two. Can't get my kids of the computers!


Better get that under control!


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

Neat post thanks for sharing.


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## Ketuel

Is it possible to do a split from Italian bees & requeen with a Russian queen?


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

Oh yes. I would keep the cork in for 2 days then without smoke pop out the cork and let them eat thru the candy. A little extra time helps insure acceptance. This method has worked for us on several dozens of Russian introductions


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## Ketuel

Thank you so much. . I bought some requeening frames & push in frames to try. Have you tried either of these? which do you prefer?
I think the queens are coming in those funny looking plastic cages. I also have a muff to try. 
With all your experience, which breed of bees do you like best & why.


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## drlonzo

Ketuel said:


> Is it possible to do a split from Italian bees & requeen with a Russian queen?


Yes but it takes 5 days for the bees to accept a russian due to diff in pheramones


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## joens

Thank you for posting the info and the pictures about the Scion that is interesting


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## Ketuel

Thank you so much. After tomarrow, I'll have my orignal 2 Italian hives and 3 Russian.
Mites & hive beetles are really bad here in the south. I just got a Oxalic Acid Vaporizer. This thing is a miracle.


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## NewbeeInNH

Thank goodness for the translate function.


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## bbbthingmaker

What type of alcohol do you use to mix with propolis ?


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## shannonswyatt

bbbthingmaker said:


> What type of alcohol do you use to mix with propolis ?


I tried Vodka, but it wasn't strong enough to break down propolis. You would probably need grain alcohol.


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## mountainbee27

How much propolis should be put in a half pint of alcohol.


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## CLSranch

jwcarlson said:


> Interesting... I like the concept. Trying to decide if it's less of a hassle than just doing a swarm trap, I wouldn't have a hive tied up this way and certainly easier to build... My hives aren't really in an area that people are checking frequently enough to make this feasible probably. I'd have to talk with the landowners into checking daily which in some cases wouldn't be a problem.
> My initial thought is that this should be almost a hood ornament for anyone with a top bar hive.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't have to catch the swarm every time they land on it. It just makes it easier to find if you are there at that time before they swarm off somewhere else. They are going to sit somewhere limb, bush, etc anyway. If your not there at that time same as if you didn't have it. If it's on days your there woohoo. I'd keep the swarm trap idea going, but the scion could make sure you get them not a nice tree with a hollow hole.
> I think it's worth a shot and pretty neat.
> Thanks to the thread starter. DocBB


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## odfrank

Numerous swarms have ignored my Russian Scion. I had high hopes for this. Spent $8 on a pulley to lower the huge swarms down into my box. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrhSTSWnsIo&index=0&list=UUdeOrgFk3sLorf8olIvQeog


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## shannonswyatt

I'm thinking it only works on Russian bees, or if you talk to your bees in a Russian accent. I put one up as well, and you would think you would occasionally see a bee rob propolis from it, but nothing.


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## GregB

There is a common misconception here which equates this scion to a trap somehow.
There are NOT the same and work totally differently.

Trap - is a permanent trap. Bees move into the trap so to live here permanently. You can check a trap once in 1-2 weeks and less frequently.

Scion - is a very short-term perch that ONLY works as a short-term perch and must be monitored *constantly *(you have a window of few hours if even that). 
It is only to make catching your own swarm easier (typically, helps to avoid climbing a tree).
Sometimes a passing swarm will land on it (only to realize this is NOT a livable hive and they need to move on).
They may even over-night on a scion while looking for a good cavity. 
But bees can NOT live on a rag and will fly away from it as soon as they can (which is kinda of obvious).

So, I don't know what people are expecting. It is what it is - a bee-perch.


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## odfrank

But it doesn't even work as a bee perch. I have seen a few scouts sniffing the LGO scented propolis filled sock. But witnessed several swarms swirling around it with nary a bee landing on it. About ten swarms have landed on the boxed Blue Atlas Cedar. Or on the kiwi covered cyclone fence.


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## GregB

Well, it does not work for you.

But it clearly does work for these guys.
Again - these scions are hanging directly on their own apiaries and they monitor them daily and hourly even.
You don't check the scions once per week - that is pointless; you need to hang about most all the time to take advantage of it.

The guy says this is the second swarm on this exact scion hanging on this exact tree (unclear, his own swarm or a passer-by).
He came in late evening to check on his apiary - tada! a swarm was hanging. 
So he had put that swarm away instead instead of checking some hives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXmZftYv1LY 

During a nice may weekend, some passer-by swarm landed on a scion.
The guy picked it up and dumped into a hive. Very convenient.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71R07RIrCWY&t=132s

In this case though, another passing swarm preferred his free standing trap (with some propolised burlap stapled to it) over several scions AND traps too hanging nearby.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4oHF_tlWz0


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## GregB

odfrank said:


> ... the LGO scented propolis filled sock.....


I also suspect a difference between "the LGO scented propolis filled sock" and heavily propolised rag (by the bees, not you).


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## odfrank

I will have to have the bees make me a propolised rag.


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## GregB

My version of the "russian scion".
Scored one so far, the season being very late this year.
For sure bees have been scavenging for easy propolise, I can tell. 
Always someone is sniffing around, most are not mine.








So now all my traps have a stapled piece of burlap with some slumgum and propolis melted and rubbed into them.


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## GregB

Here is one way to make that "propolised burlap". 
It works.


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## Knobs

Worked great for me. Had my first swarm 2 days after I put it up last year.

I just mixed up lots of propolis, with some wax, olive oil, and lemongrass oil and brushed it over some burlap. 

Bees visited it for two straight months (without refreshing it) and I caught 5 from my main yard.


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## Michael Bush

Here's mine:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2018/RussianScion.jpg

We caught a swarm on it a couple of weeks ago.


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## GregB

Pretty cool version of the same - free standing "bird house" - I like it best.
They rubbed it with propolis and some mint.
I would staple in a propolised rag myself.

You wrap the bees, pick them up and set the rig straight up into a cool/dark corner for a day just as is (basement).
Then install.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zNFLWK_3nY


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## enjambres

Greg,

That's a very interesting youTube, including what amounts to Taranov _board_, instead of the usual cloth arrangement.

But I have a couple of questions: why the temporary storage in the dark? (I may not have caught that in the audio, or the text.) Is that because the hive design doesn't allow direct dumping in? 

I always just dump a swarm right in, and I've had good luck with that. I usually immediately add a frame of brood to anchor them, though that risks perpetuation of any disease or parasite risks, and forestalls the possibility of a quick OAV to clean the broodless swarm up. I don't have a lot of experience with catching swarms, though, so maybe I've just been lucky.

Nancy


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## GregB

enjambres said:


> Greg,
> 
> That's a very interesting youTube, including what amounts to Taranov _board_, instead of the usual cloth arrangement.
> 
> But I have a couple of questions: why the temporary storage in the dark? (I may not have caught that in the audio, or the text.) Is that because the hive design doesn't allow direct dumping in?
> 
> I always just dump a swarm right in, and I've had good luck with that. I usually immediately add a frame of brood to anchor them, though that risks perpetuation of any disease or parasite risks, and forestalls the possibility of a quick OAV to clean the broodless swarm up. I don't have a lot of experience with catching swarms, though, so maybe I've just been lucky.
> 
> Nancy


In that particular video you should have noticed - it was installation into a vertical log hive.
Partly why they were installed through the entrance (I suspect).
But partly, it is a tradition to install swarms using boards/plywood through the entrance (if you think of traditional log hives/skeps, you can see why - it was easiest way in, actually).

Like you said - frame transfers often amount to infection/parasite transfers (especially the current parasite - talking the mites).
As for me, that alone is a good enough argument to avoid using "anchoring brood". 

Parking a perched swarm for 24-48 hours in a cool and dark basement-like conditions a typical way to minimize *post-installation absconding*.
Naturally, if it is dark, they have no motivation to be trying to take off - the darkness keeps them calm and stable right on the perch.
Heck, you can keep them 3-4 days in storage if the conditions allow and/or demand (bad weather/no time).
They just will be more agreeable then to settle down for good (spray water on them if keeping into 3-4 days).

Being a kid, watching/catching/installing swarms was my prime summer-time job (some responsibility there).
So when we installed the swarms I was always told sending them through the entrance is a better way to do it because they go through the experience of proper entering the hive (as they normally would when landing). 
That too helps to minimize absconding I was told.
Now thinking of the swarm landing on my back-porch trap last summer - I do think it makes some sense (having natural birth vs. C-section comparison comes to mind).

We do not recall my Father ever using or talking of brood frames to "hold" the swarm down. 
I do recall of him being critical of direct dumping of the swarms as if improper, unnatural way - this is because "the swarms must enter the new home through the entrance". 
That is the way in. 

PS: I personally just do what is convenient for a specific case and time; not religious about it.


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## hankstump

I put a layer of burlap in my solar wax melter with all the wax on top of it, and after a day in the sun, I have a pretty good rag with all of the appropriate bee smells. It helps filter the wax too. We call it a Slum Gum Matt. You can make a Russian Scion with it, or stuff it in your swarm trap to add that added essence that's sure to bring 'em in. 

Cheers, Phil


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## GregB

hankstump said:


> *I put a layer of burlap in my solar wax melter with all the wax on top of it, and after a day in the sun, I have a pretty good r*ag with all of the appropriate bee smells. It helps filter the wax too. We call it a Slum Gum Matt. You can make a Russian Scion with it, or stuff it in your swarm trap to add that added essence that's sure to bring 'em in.
> 
> Cheers, Phil


Great idea!
Never occurred to me.
I will keep this lazy method in mind.
(have the solar melter and all the other ingredients - perfect).


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## Litsinger

hankstump said:


> I put a layer of burlap in my solar wax melter with all the wax on top of it, and after a day in the sun, I have a pretty good rag with all of the appropriate bee smells. It helps filter the wax too. We call it a Slum Gum Matt.


I followed your approach based on your swarm trapping video- brilliant idea.


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## Tumbleweed

hankstump said:


> I put a layer of burlap in my solar wax melter with all the wax on top of it, and after a day in the sun, I have a pretty good rag with all of the appropriate bee smells. It helps filter the wax too. We call it a Slum Gum Matt. You can make a Russian Scion with it, or stuff it in your swarm trap to add that added essence that's sure to bring 'em in.
> 
> Cheers, Phil


Perhaps my cut offs from deep foundation to make medium frames could be wrapped around scion, though they’d have cells imprinted, thoughts?


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## odfrank

Yes, some have a frame of comb on their scion.


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## JWPalmer

I find it interesting that this concept is referred to as a Russian Scion. Langstroth advised wrapping a branch with a black cloth to simulate an already clustering swarm in his book "Hive and the Honey Bee".

"Having noticed that a new swarm will almost always alight wherever they see a mass of clustering bees, I find that they can be determined to some _selected_ spot by an old black hat, or even a mullen stalk, which, when colored black, can hardly be distinguished, at a distance, from a clustering swarm. A black woolen stocking or a piece of cloth, fastened to a shady limb, in plain sight of the hives, and where the bees can be conveniently hived, would probably answer as good a purpose"


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## joebeewhisperer

JWPalmer said:


> I find it interesting that this concept is referred to as a Russian Scion. Langstroth advised wrapping a branch with a black cloth to simulate an already clustering swarm in his book "Hive and the Honey Bee".
> 
> "Having noticed that a new swarm will almost always alight wherever they see a mass of clustering bees, I find that they can be determined to some _selected_ spot by an old black hat, or even a mullen stalk, which, when colored black, can hardly be distinguished, at a distance, from a clustering swarm. A black woolen stocking or a piece of cloth, fastened to a shady limb, in plain sight of the hives, and where the bees can be conveniently hived, would probably answer as good a purpose"


JW you just solved a mystery. Last year I caught 7-8 swarms and lost 2 that I know about. First one was Father's Day about 12' off the ground in a dogwood (used a ladder and loader bucket extended). Second or third was 2 swarms in a low grouping of small pines in our field, one I coaxed down by handfuls and on a frame, the other tree I leaned over and shook them down. The remainder were no more than 4-5' from the ground, just about exclusively on sumac and no more than 30-40' from the yard. The seed clusters already look like little swarms and the bees were not on the seeds, but within inches on the stems. I'll likely try @hankstump 's trick or similar on the portion that's been mowed as I've taken 50% of it down. Thanks to both you guys and everyone. 

I told people their hearts were not in leaving, and I also used my wife's mom's trick with the bell sounds to "settle" a few, but basically they were surrounded by a grown-up field with hundreds of little swarm-looking pods. I mowed part of it this winter but intend to leave some because of the ease of catching these. I was doing music one night in Murfreesboro (1.5 hrs away) and walked out the door to a swarm. Texted the pastor that I would be a few minutes late. Had them boxed, shirt changed and still made rehearsal on time or close. Probably took 10-12 minutes with an EZ Nuc laying close by.


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## Fizbi

I'm sold. Will build one and get it going ASAP!


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> Had them boxed, shirt changed and still made rehearsal on time or close. Probably took 10-12 minutes with an EZ Nuc laying close by.


Sounds like how 007 would have handled it.


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## Litsinger

JWPalmer said:


> "Having noticed that a new swarm will almost always alight wherever they see a mass of clustering bees, I find that they can be determined to some _selected_ spot by an old black hat, or even a mullen stalk, which, when colored black, can hardly be distinguished, at a distance, from a clustering swarm. A black woolen stocking or a piece of cloth, fastened to a shady limb, in plain sight of the hives, and where the bees can be conveniently hived, would probably answer as good a purpose"


Nice find, JW. Thanks for posting.


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