# BEE COLONIES - 100% WILD SURVIVOR STOCK



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

April 13, 2019: SOLD OUT!
April 27, 2019: $599 - only 20 left
May 18, 2019: $549 - only 27 left
June 1, 2019: $499 - 45 left

https://horizontalhive.com/buy-hive-bees/swarm-trap-top-bar-sale.shtml

Um... 
Well. 
Donno.

PS: scratching my head of what to make of it.... 
while back I did ask Leo if he is selling his queens (I'd take one maybe), but $599 for, essentially, a queen to be plugged into my "almond bee" infested slums - donno; 
too much money - too much risk - no long-term guaranties.


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## tom0354 (May 25, 2018)

****.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

$600 for a nuc?!?!???!?!?!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i'm raising my prices.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Curious things for sale on that website:

Wax foundation made from brood combs in Spain and small wax blocks from Appalachia that are specifically noted to be for use only by humans and not to be used for bees. What's up with that?

The book, Honey on the Earth, looks attractive, but still pricey ($65).

Of course, as Greg noted the nuc prices are shocking. But still, they include a Layens-sized, 7-frame nuc box, as well the usual two frames of brood and Her Majesty.

Nancy


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

enjambres said:


> Curious things for sale on that website:
> 
> Wax foundation made from brood combs in Spain and small wax blocks from Appalachia that are specifically noted to be for use only by humans and not to be used for bees. What's up with that?
> 
> ...


Heck, I need to get into this "feral" bee selling fast!
Will sell my Layens-style nucs at 50% OFF. 
Frames and all.


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## tom0354 (May 25, 2018)

Another interesting question let says I set out a trap and a colony moved in. How do I tell that it is feral vs swamp from another keeper? 

$85/frame. I just check my piggy bank and wonder if I can get couple of eggs for $10.00.


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## nickhefferan (Jul 26, 2018)

The inclusion of the 7-frame Layens "nuc" is at least $150 of the cost, he sells the same model un-inhabited and without foundation for $150.
4 frames drawn out with 3 more with foundation. 14x16" dimensions for each frame, you're basically buying a hive.


I don't have the money to buy one I'm just saying it does make some sense. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Amazing. I am not that old and I remember packages being 69 bucks. My first bee purchase was 5 double deep colonies at 150 each and I thought that was pricey!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Beeswax produced "deep in the Ozark wilderness" for only $50 a lb. But its not as bad as it sounds because a little of this stuff "goes a long ways". LOL. PT Barnum said it best........


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

PT did pretty well for himself....


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Something about crowds and silver linings. Unfortunately, money is not made of silver any more and there don't seem to be many crowds of beekeepers these days.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

tom0354 said:


> How do I tell that it is feral vs swamp from another keeper?


You don't tell.
Well, you can easily tell the size of the bees - but that is where it stands.
Large bees are suggestive of commercial foundation and industrial beekeeping source.

Keep in mind - there are few keepers who keep bees on natural comb and have not treated their bees for the last 5-10 years and the bees are not dying like flies. 
Heck, I would LOVE to capture a swarm from this keeper (I don't care if they are not exactly "feral" anymore, close enough as for me).


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

Wow, I looked at the web page that was for the 500.00 bees.... bees are high anyway, these bees must have gold pollen attached to their hind ends. Lol. Some folks with no common sense mabye, bit not me. I think the site or owner of site has dreams of getting rich fast, or has special bees. ?? Am I wrong, I'm a rookie, but....


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Suppose, there are cases where such a purchase makes sense.

All the frames and hives included are just a "value-added" gimmick. 
Not worth it to me (I make those wares myself from free scraps).
In addition, they create compatibility issues for the buyer or force the need to buy into Layens equipment.

But - the bee material itself is of value.
I can see a purchase of 2-frame nuc (the queen, some brood included as backup, and some support stuff) for $200.
The frames should be standard for more flexible intake.
Something along this line is reasonable for those who after the material, IMO.


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

I agree with you Greg. I make all.my equip. , except frames. I figure also that frames and equip should be standard stuff for compatibility. I guess the equip. With the bees would be helpful to.very newbees wanting that style of equipment. Im.into langstroth hives. I run all med. Stuff, and like it so far. No real issues with med. Frames in brood boxes either. I would really like to play with a top bar hive at some point. Just as a curiosity, but doable in a year or so.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Since the wax is imported from Spain, they don't want you introducing it to any bees or hives as it could contain a pathogen we don't have in the states is my guess on why it's for human use only.


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## Diptera (Nov 10, 2016)

It is all in the marketing. 

The distinct name rang a bell. This is also the same person who wrote this article:

https://www.beeculture.com/selling-honey-20-pound/

I read this the year before last when my wife and I wanted to just do comb honey. 

He also sells "aged for 3 years in the brood chamber" honey comb. According to him is "will rival the best of chocolates." And he makes a point that it contains cocoons and bee poop! [sic] and that is what makes it better. 

My wife still jokes about the "chocolate" honey.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Diptera said:


> My wife still jokes about the "chocolate" honey.


The bee pricing high and I would not buy such packaging as overpriced.
I would consider a better packaged product, like I said - the bee material itself is worthy I think.
The "value-added" wooden ware - not so much to me.

But no need to start kicking the "chocolate" honey now.

To be sure, I am totally on board with - "the brood chamber honey comb".
That's what I harvest. 
We eat the "chocolate honey". Yep.

As well I harvest aged perga from the brood combs - for food.
Of course, I also do my own sourdough starter and bake my own bread with it.
Ferment my own kefir too.
These are all nasty looking, nasty smelling, fermented foods to most.
Fine with me.

The most expensive coffee in the world harvested from animal poop. 
Just for a reference:
http://www.most-expensive.coffee/


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I thought bears were after brood and wax moths ate wax not honey. 

If larval "poop" imparts a chocolate flavor to the honey I wonder what flavor mite poop does, of which I'll bet there is plenty.

If that is what people want to buy and consume, more power to them and him.

My Grandma used to say Billy Sol Estes could sell spots to a leopard.

Alex


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I just read that article about the Civet cat poop coffee. I never would have thought such a thing existed. Thanks.

Alex


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

I am drilling large holes in all my trees and moving my bees in and then pulling them out with the same claim but I only want $550. I got 2800 that will be ready tomorrow if you want to come get them and help me pull the nails out of the frames that I used to hold them in the tree. I guarantee you they are bees and they have survived a bunch of stuff. 100% wild as hell when I was nailing them in.


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## Diptera (Nov 10, 2016)

GregV said:


> The bee pricing high and I would not buy such packaging as overpriced.
> I would consider a better packaged product, like I said - the bee material itself is worthy I think.
> The "value-added" wooden ware - not so much to me.
> 
> ...


Not kicking chocolate honey at all. I have harvested brood comb honey as well and it is fine. I just was pointing out the marketing that it was like fine wine or "chocolate" and worth extra money, especially saying the bee poop makes it better, when he is probably just getting rid of old comb. Hey, if you can sell it, why not? 

And again, just because it passes through the gut of a Civet, does not make it better. People associate higher cost with better. I used to live in Colombia, so fresh coffee is the key.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If I were to buy TF bees, I would want to know not that they were wild caught, but that they had lived untreated in a domestic hive for some period of years, probably 3 minimum, and that they had performed well during that time. If such were available here i would happily pay big bucks for them. 

But then, I would want an isolated mating yard and a breeding program in place, or my investment would likely be soon lost.

With his chocolate honey and $50 wax, the guy obviously has a flair for marketing, that will appeal at least to a small enough portion of the population to get him the sales he needs. But the claims made for the bees are that they are wild caught and TF. That does not guarantee either that they will make you any honey, or that they will continue to thrive TF in the beekeepers hive.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

OK, so we all agree that if you eat anything out of your own chemical-free garden, orchard, or a beehive - you will eat some poop, like it or not. Don't like eating poop - then eat pills. That is the probably only poop-free thing there is.

That aside, buying $600 bees will not guaranty anything.
For my locality this would be a huge gamble.
Too much money to gamble away.
I can only gamble because me bees are free.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

yep... $600 SHM, Just goes to show just how bad the cult of mystical ferals have gotten.


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## herbhome (Oct 18, 2015)

GregV said:


> The most expensive coffee in the world harvested from animal poop.
> Just for a reference:
> http://www.most-expensive.coffee/


EWWWWW!


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Well, I rinse my fruit and vegetables before eating. I realize that eating a little residual poop is one thing, but eating or drinking it on purpose and paying an exorbitant price for the experience is quite another.

I don't want to eat bee larva poop or cut up larva or mites or their poop either, from what I suspect are brood combs from dead-outs. But that's just me.

Alex


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AHudd said:


> I don't want to eat bee larva poop or cut up larva or mites or their poop either, from what I suspect are brood combs from dead-outs. But that's just me.
> 
> Alex


Bees do excellent job cleaning out post-larva cells before they get re-used for anything. 
Honey/perga do not get dumped right on top of the larva poop, obviously.
Bees are not that stupid.
Good enough for me.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AHudd said:


> I don't want to eat bee larva poop ............
> 
> Alex


Obviously, bees are doing *excellent *job cleaning the post-larva cells for reuse, be it for more brood, honey, or perga.
Bees do not like eating larva poop in their own food either and are excellent house-keepers.

I am not really sure where is that idea comes of the bees eating their own poop. 
They don't. 
Hence, let us not worry of bee poop on brood chamber honey of all things.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

herbhome said:


> EWWWWW!


Of course, we all know that coffee beans are really well washed after the poop-treatment so it is not like pieces of poop are mixed with the beans.

OK, for the complete record, read this too, while on the subject.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesal...st-expensive-coffee-comes-from-elephants-no-2


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

GregV said:


> I am not really sure where is that idea comes of the bees eating their own poop.
> They don't.


I didn't say anything about bees eating their own poop. I said *I* don't want to eat it.

The idea comes from the wesiteb where he freely admits, in writing, that the comb may contain larval poop.

Whether a brood comb comes from a dead-out or an active hive doesn't matter, when it gets cut for sale who is going to clean *at that point * before it is packaged? Who is going to clean the cross contamination from the knife blade? Hence, my statement, *"I don't want to eat it."*

Packaging laws for honey are fairly lax as of now, but how long will that last if sellers keep pushing the envelope on basic hygiene?

Of course, it is none of my business what you or others eat as long as they are informed about what they are buying.

This is, however, only my opinion and I am sticking to it. Let us agree to disagree.

Alex


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Ahudd harvesting brood comb honey is fairly common- single deep, all meadum, unlimited brood nest, KTBH, and warre management comes to mind.
as does people getting honey from dead outs....
Trying to eat cut comb filled with cocoons... that's another matter, took a bite of 2 year old comb brood comb once (was too green to know why not to), never again. inch:

one must rember we are eating evaporated bug vomit


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

GregV said:


> Of course, we all know that coffee beans are really well washed after the poop-treatment so it is not like pieces of poop are mixed with the beans.


I agree people have been eating things that are not particularly palatable *to me * for a long time. I think they did it out of necessity or convenience. I could see how someone suffering under a caste system with no access to land or money might make it a habit to gather beans from such a lovely pile.

Purchasing such things at exorbitant prices, be it coffee beans or brood comb honey, is a marketing method targeting ones desire to elevate their social status using economic means. 

I know a lot of people who eat roasted pumpkin or persimmon seeds, but they don't gather raccoon scat to get them, because they don't have to.

In the book, "Citizen Hughes", Howard Hughes was said to be vehemently opposed to waste water treatment. He said it was the same as being served a steak with a turd on the plate. The turd wasn't necessarily touching the steak, but merely the idea was repulsive.

There may come a day when I have to eat brood comb honey with larva in it, but not today.

Again, JMHO.

Alex


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

msl said:


> Ahudd harvesting brood comb honey is fairly common- single deep, all meadum, unlimited brood nest, KTBH, and warre management comes to mind.
> as does people getting honey from dead outs....
> Trying to eat cut comb filled with cocoons... that's another matter, took a bite of 2 year old comb brood comb once (was too green to know why not to), never again. inch:
> 
> one must rember we are eating evaporated bug vomit


I agree. My point is the statement made,"May contain larval poop". If I am going to sell brood comb honey, I am going to make sure it doesn't contain larval poop. :no: Is it a violation of food safety to have larval poop in honey?

Maybe I'm way off base here, but these things just get under my skin. It smacks of new age mysticism that all things within a bee hive are a cure for practically everything. I'll stop now.

Alex


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

what is the 1st thing a bee does when it emerges?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

OK, guys, I think we got this "poop talk" sufficiently squared away..... 


Back to the subject.

What would be a *fair* price for a proven TF/feral bee nuc?
Let us call it a standard 5-frame deep Lang nuc for sale (for compatibility reasons).

What M. Bush's bees could be sold, for example?
Or the SPs' TF/feral bees?

PS: let us ignore for a moment the management issues of this purchased TF bee nuc (really, a buyer's problem; not the seller's).


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

msl said:


> what is the 1st thing a bee does when it emerges?


It cleans its own cell.

Alex


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Greg, I'll take a bite. In my area, a spring nuc fetches around $165. An over wintered nuc delivered in early spring will get around $210. An overwintered, proven, TF nuc in my opinion ought to sell in the $280-$300 range, in a cardboard nuc box. Dr. Sharashkin's nucs seem a little overpriced even in a nice Layens hive box. Thing is, I am sure he will be turning customers away after selling out. So using the simple supply and demand economics curve he is fairly priced. Yikes! What is the world coming to?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> Greg, I'll take a bite. In my area, a spring nuc fetches around $165. An over wintered nuc delivered in early spring will get around $210. An overwintered, proven, TF nuc in my opinion ought to sell in the $280-$300 range, in a cardboard nuc box. Dr. Sharashkin's nucs seem a little overpriced even in a nice Layens hive box. Thing is, I am sure he will be turning customers away after selling out. So using the simple supply and demand economics curve he is fairly priced. Yikes! What is the world coming to?


This sounds about fair.

Our local nuc pricing for "regular, local" bees was - $250 for the overwintered; $160 for the summer nucs.
So the good TF material could fetch extra $100-200 maybe (making it $350-450 for the overwintered nucs)?

Hmm. Donno. We do not have such product locally for a good precedent (not yet).
Of course, as I hope to be on the selling side one day, the more the merrier for me!


PS: 
selling those TF bees *locally *is NOT that risky, btw, as they maybe just plugging back into the same local feral population - hence will probably stay afloat TF as presumed;
he does sell them locally pretty much - "Pickup from our apiary in Drury, MO 65638"


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

Quote Originally Posted by GregV

"The most expensive coffee in the world harvested from animal poop.
Just for a reference: http://www.most-expensive.coffee/ "


I'm sure the aroma while perking has everyone checking the bottom of their shoes.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Too Funny Tim, LOL I guess the classic statement, comes to mind . a NUC is worth what ever someone will pay for it. So a little marketing and the only one selling the Layens size NUCs all have influence on the price. I guess he may think you all are selling your NUCs to Cheap. Talk up the fact your queen did not need to stop laying to go into a cage, and you have brood, in the NUC, where a package has a 3 week delay to have bees hatch. Keep raising prices till you have some left over, that means you are zeroing in on what the market will bear. then next year they are overwintered NUCs and raise the price some more. I think this local NUC sale could be a big market if played correct. Package is 150 ish so that should be the floor IMO so 150-250 window would be a good guess at where most of the sales land.
GG


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good observation Grey Goose. I remember back a few years when small cell was the thing, nucs on small cell comb were being sold for a lot more than other nucs. Now, less demand for them.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Oldtimer said:


> Good observation Grey Goose. I remember back a few years when small cell was the thing, nucs on small cell comb were being sold for a lot more than other nucs. Now, less demand for them.


I see several posts on "how do i get my NUC from Deep to Medium", and "I am shifting to Medium" today If I were to do NUCs I would do a 6 frame Medium NUC, with a "Never cadged" Queen laying for 4 weeks. One could sell in 2 weeks but a 2 week delay could allow you to make it with 5 frames and let it grow by 1 on its own, and I am not so in need of the funds, that 2 weeks matter for cash flow reasons. 1/2 medium with a laying queen for $175. that is $350 (a medium box for bees combs and 2 new queens). I would offer to drive them over install then into your hive for 20$ and a burger "called the expert installation service". Install them right, 1 last look at the queen, get my NUC box back, most Newbies would bite for 20 getting it done right. If you could build 4 a week for 10 weeks, 7000$$ summer part time job.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> I would offer to drive them over install then into your hive for 20$ and a burger "called the expert installation service".


Gray Goose:

Enjoyed your post. While I am not in the market for nucs at present, I can speak from a novitiate's perspective that I think a $20 delivery and installation charge would be a bargain, especially if it came with a side order of some advice and 'what to look for' through the season.

Your business model seems sound to me, particularly with new-ish beekeepers who have enough experience to see that installing packages is a risky proposition, and are looking for the opportunity to have a whole season of success.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> Gray Goose:
> 
> Enjoyed your post. While I am not in the market for nucs at present, I can speak from a novitiate's perspective that I think a $20 delivery and installation charge would be a bargain, especially if it came with a side order of some advice and 'what to look for' through the season.
> 
> Your business model seems sound to me, particularly with new-ish beekeepers who have enough experience to see that installing packages is a risky proposition, and are looking for the opportunity to have a whole season of success.


Thanks, Litsinger
I was somewhat tonge and cheek. I helped a newbe one time with a package, I guess we were all there at one time , but they really did not know how to handle the queen cadge and get the bees out etc. Now you can go watch 1 or 2 YouTubes and have a good idea. Right ,, if you hive the NUC "well" it is worth it and you can show them a bit of the important stuff. Would work better for local customers. Again if the local drone pool is going to benefit then I know how many and where they are, surround my Apiary with my own genetics.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> I was somewhat tonge and cheek.


Thanks, GG. I assumed as much, but wanted to comment that I can definitely see this type of service being value-added and 2nd and 3rd year beekeepers would readily appreciate the value of such an approach and would thus be glad to pay for it.

I can certainly appreciate how a 'rising tide lifts all boats' such that it is in our best interests to support and encourage local genetics with our neighbor beekeepers.

Enjoying reading your thoughts- they are helpful to us rookies.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> I see several posts on "how do i get my NUC from Deep to Medium", and "I am shifting to Medium" today If I were to do NUCs I would do a 6 frame Medium NUC, with a "Never cadged" Queen laying for 4 weeks. One could sell in 2 weeks but a 2 week delay could allow you to make it with 5 frames and let it grow by 1 on its own, and I am not so in need of the funds, that 2 weeks matter for cash flow reasons. 1/2 medium with a laying queen for $175. that is $350 (a medium box for bees combs and 2 new queens). I would offer to drive them over install then into your hive for 20$ and a burger "called the expert installation service". Install them right, 1 last look at the queen, get my NUC box back, most Newbies would bite for 20 getting it done right. If you could build 4 a week for 10 weeks, 7000$$ summer part time job.


Most folks will be happy for you to install. In fact many nuc suppliers I know only make them right into customers box so that customers dont have to transfer etc. 

However, not sure how many medium nucs you can really sell for much over $150. Obviously there is demand as i have a number of people specifically ask me for them which is usually doable as I run many colonies as a story and half. But there is also no shortage of small hobbyists constantly advertising along with some bigger folks all selling overwintered nucs in the spring. And by time we reach June, the prices for newly mated nucs tend to be much closer to $100.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

BigBlackBirds said:


> Most folks will be happy for you to install. In fact many nuc suppliers I know only make them right into customers box so that customers dont have to transfer etc.
> 
> However, not sure how many medium nucs you can really sell for much over $150. Obviously there is demand as i have a number of people specifically ask me for them which is usually doable as I run many colonies as a story and half. But there is also no shortage of small hobbyists constantly advertising along with some bigger folks all selling overwintered nucs in the spring. And by time we reach June, the prices for newly mated nucs tend to be much closer to $100.


If summer NUCs can be had for 100$ then the local population is well served. If the bees survive the winter driving down the costs in the spring of the next year then the genetics or local "habits" of the beekeepers is also good. Sounds like all good news in Clinton. So is there a "list" of NUC sellers I may call some up for the 100$ June NUC especially if the parent is an overwintered Queen from the area. Would rather do that then order packages in the spring. maybe PM me if you know of a couple good sources.

GG


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Now, less demand for them.

Not in my experience.


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