# Trying Michael Palmer's way



## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Why the Terramycin ?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

> Why the Terramycin ?


Yes, that's what I want to know, too? Are your hives showing signs of EFB? If not, I don't see why you'd add that extra stress to them while they are wintering. Think about what antibiotic treatment does to your gut!

Otherwise it seems like your only item left will be to combine some of the nucs. It sounds like you have now 41 drawn and filled/occupied deep frames to make up X number of nucs. Plus whatever you can cajole them into getting done in the next month. If you want some 4/4s plus the 5/5, it would seem that you might eke out perhaps four or five of the 4/4 nucs. Feeding is useful to build stores but the key will be how much comb you can get them to _draw_, so they can fill.

When I am aggressively building nucs I skip placing mediums (honey supers) on my double- (well, triple- in my case, but it's the same thing) deep 10s and give all the hives additional deeps to work on so the resources can be shared among the nucs that wind up a bit under-resourced. This gives me the greatest increase of winterable nucs. I figure a well-wintered colony can easily draw its own medium frames on the flow the next spring.

You won't have to pinch/combine any of your purchased queens will you? Hope not!

Don't forget to plan ahead for access to the hives so you can do that late-season one-shot of OAV in December (even you give them a series starting in a few weeks.) I don't do my final packing until that's finished.

Enj.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

I posted a reply about the terramycin but I don't see it here so hopefully this isn't a duplicate. I am just following the video series " a year in the life of an apiary" by a university entomologist I found on youtube. I don't know any better so if its not necessary I'm happy not to use the terramycin patties.
That's a great idea with the deep frames Enj. 
I guess I had thought that if necessary I would break down the weakest 2 or 3 large hives and divide them also into 4/4 or 5/5 double ovrerwintering nucs so as not not have to pinch any queens and share out/divide all resources evenly across all the remaining nucs/hives.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Good for you. :applause:

You can't go to far wrong following Michael Palmer's plan. :thumbsup:


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I wonder if you're thinking of Fumagilin for nosema and not terramycin?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

At one time the standing operating procedures for beekeeping called for preventative treatments in spring and fall to prevent American Foulbrood. The video "A year in the Life of an Apiary" is an old series, it still recommended the preventative treatment.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

....that video (from Keith Delaplane) is from 1993...practices have changed.

The use of TM in grease patties (extender patties) are largely viewed as being a big accelerator for resistant strains....and I'd be really suprised if Keith didn't strongly recommend against them today. 

...it isn't his fault by any means....how could he predict and recommend in 93 what would be seen as best practice almost 25 years later?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

deknow said:


> The use of TM in grease patties (extender patties) are largely viewed as being a big accelerator for resistant strains....and I'd be really suprised if Keith didn't strongly recommend against them today.



Well, perhaps you should be aware that Keith Delaplane is still making essentially that same recommendation ...



> To prevent AFB, feed colonies the antibiotic Terramycin® according to label instructions in early spring and fall. Allow at least four weeks from the last Terramycin® treatment until the first nectar flow.
> 
> http://extension.uga.edu/publications/detail.cfm?number=B1045


Keith's name is at the head of that page, as the UGA Extension Entomologist, and the "review date" of that page is March 2014.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

according to the video series I watched the fumagilin which I also did was in the spring for nosema. I did that just after winter.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

I wonder if Michael Palmer uses Terramycin or fumagilin.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Isn't Mr Palmer treatment free?
I think so...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I do not use TM or fumagilin. I do treat for varroa.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

DavidZ said:


> Isn't Mr Palmer treatment free?
> I think so...


See Michael's reply. He does not keep bees without treatments - In other words his operation is *NOT* TF. Neither is mine. Michael's bees are very alive and extremely productive.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> I do not use TM or fumagilin. I do treat for varroa.


That's good nuff for me! Thanks! I'm trying to follow your plan on the sustainable apiary video with regards the overwintering Nucs and trying to use brood and honey and pollen frames in the most sensible way I can.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Treating according to label directions is different than using in a grease pattie.

I can certainly imagine operations where using TM twice a year is required....maybe even places where that is true. I can't quite read the quote as a blanket recommendation (rather a description of an effective treatment )...I have no idea what he recommends to beekeepers in general.

It's hard to imagine that such will be as easy when access to antibiotics are more difficult to get.

I would see needing to use TM twice a year as an indication that something was wrong somewhere...either in my equipment or in someone elses.



Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well, perhaps you should be aware that Keith Delaplane is still making essentially that same recommendation ...
> 
> 
> 
> Keith's name is at the head of that page, as the UGA Extension Entomologist, and the "review date" of that page is March 2014.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Apologies to the OP.

I read '...patties and terramycin' as one thing...on rereading I would assume the OP meant feeding a protein patty, and applying TM according the the label.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

no apologies needed mate you were correct i have terramycin patties i bought from mann lake. Sounds though that the general consensus is i dont need to use them so i wont. One less thing to do!:thumbsup:


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

aran said:


> That's good nuff for me! Thanks! I'm trying to follow your plan on the sustainable apiary video with regards the overwintering Nucs and trying to use brood and honey and pollen frames in the most sensible way I can.


If you keep doing it, and you can build enough equipment, you will have more bees than you know what to do with.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

rkereid said:


> If you keep doing it, and you can build enough equipment, you will have more bees than you know what to do with.


Thanks mate! Has been a good year. I have some lofty goals for next year:
10 production hives hopefully producing at least 500lbs honey for harvesting
16 nucs to take into winter of 2017
I want to try and graft and raise some of my own queens so i can keep with Michaels self sustainable apiary plan.


We will see if i can pull that off lol or i may be starting again if noone survives the winter!!!


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

The biggest problem with expanding using MP as an influence is ECD - exploding colony disorder. Another way to think of nucs is as incubators for bees - there is something about the box shape that seems to encourage colony growth. Work out how many boxes you think you will need and then double it and make that number in the winter off season so you will be ready.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> The biggest problem with expanding using MP as an influence is ECD - exploding colony disorder. Another way to think of nucs is as incubators for bees - there is something about the box shape that seems to encourage colony growth. Work out how many boxes you think you will need and then double it and make that number in the winter off season so you will be ready.


Ive discovered i really enjoy making the wooden ware
-> i made 8 supers, 13 quilt boxes and a whole bunch of feeding shims this past weekend. I bought the incra Ibox which makes perfect box joints...crazy how fast and easy it was!
I plan to continue making supers/bottom boards/inner covers and telescoping top covers and double overwintering nuc boxes over the fall and winter so i should have a TON of equipment for expansion next year if the bees just do their part and survive!!!!


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## Gazelle (May 17, 2015)

Me too Aran!


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Built a couple duplex hives out of necessity last fall. Had four nucs that needed space and was low on cash so I sacrificed two deeps. Oh it was tough making that decision when I was so low on wooden ware. I totally expected all four colonies to die and was surprised to find that all four lived. (even the dink). This spring they got put in full size boxes and exploded. 

If you're considering giving this a try do not hesitate. What do you got to lose other than a couple weak colonies that would do better in a 4/4 or 4/4/4? Double them up and they share heat. Amazing how well they do. I keep building more of them too. 

Another thing I did this spring was stack nucs. 3 deeps with about 4 mediums on top and gee whiz they like that. Get ready for the honey and a swarm or two. If you're wanting more bees this is a very good way to get there.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> The biggest problem with expanding using MP as an influence is ECD - exploding colony disorder. Another way to think of nucs is as incubators for bees - there is something about the box shape that seems to encourage colony growth. Work out how many boxes you think you will need and then double it and make that number in the winter off season so you will be ready.


You can run short in a good year if you just double what you think you will need so be ready.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

Good advice I will just keep building over the fall and winter and make sure I have much more wood ware than I think I'll need.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

aran said:


> make sure I have much more wood ware than I think I'll need.


And then build double.


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