# Extra drawn frames & swarm control



## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Good thread topic! I am looking forward to the discussion!

Drawn comb is, I believe, one of the most valuable resources that we can develop. It can come from nucs that are set up as resource factories. It also can come from hives that die over winter. 

It can be used when setting up new hives to give them a head start on building up. It can be used in honey supers to free bees from drawing wax.

I don't think that putting brood above an inner cover is a good idea. Anything above the inner cover is out of the hive as far as the bees are concerned, and I am afraid that you would lose that brood.


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## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

ralittlefield said:


> Good thread topic! I am looking forward to the discussion!
> 
> ... It can come from nucs that are set up as resource factories.


Me, too, it's been a mystery to me! The only way I've done it so far is to take end honey frames out when nectar is flowing and extra those. But there's bound to be a better way. I have nucs, so how do I turn them into comb-building resource factories (and then there's the problem of removing and emptying out those frames)? Thanks.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

I keep several nucs that I rob frames of brood from to drop into a hive that can use a boost. That nuc can get an undrawn frame to work on. The frames are not removed and emptied, the full frame is utilized. The frame of brood can contain thousands of new bees for the lagging hive.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Roland style - Another way to obtain your drawn brood comb: Just raise a frame of mostly sealed brood above an excluder after gently shaking off the bees, when it emerges take it away. Of course you are adding undrawn frames to the gaps when you remove the drawn ones.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

during a good flow you can use a deep box as a honey super. Once you harvest the honey you will have drawn deep frames to use later. They get heavy but, getting the drawn comb is worth it.


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## b2bnz (Apr 5, 2009)

The beauty of running one size of box through out your whole apiary is that this problem does not arise. I run all 3/4 boxes for brood and honey supers and I always have spare drawn out frames. Also helps with rotating out a few old brood frames each year to reduce chemical and disease build up. 
Best quick way to build up drawn frames in a hurry is to catch a swarm and give them new foundation to work on feeding them lots of sugar water. Works well!


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## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

b2bnz said:


> The beauty of running one size of box through out your whole apiary is that this problem does not arise. ... Also helps with rotating out a few old brood frames each year to reduce chemical and disease build up.


Does the yearly culling of frames (I figured I'd start at year 3, and take out say 3 frames, and keep rotating out each year; I also date my frames) include honey supers or is this just for the brood frames?


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## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

johng said:


> during a good flow you can use a deep box as a honey super. Once you harvest the honey you will have drawn deep frames to use later. They get heavy but, getting the drawn comb is worth it.


Fabulous idea! I may try this with one of my hives. I run a single deep + shallows, so I suppose that one hive may look like: single deep + shallow (or 2) + deep on top.


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## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Roland style - Another way to obtain your drawn brood comb: Just raise a frame of mostly sealed brood above an excluder after gently shaking off the bees, when it emerges take it away. Of course you are adding undrawn frames to the gaps when you remove the drawn ones.


I am so doing this. Thanks everybody for these fabulous methods. :applause: Obviously there's more than one way to get 'er done. I'm going to try all 3 this spring and see how it works. I can see the beauty of the nuc system. I've got strong hives, a weak one or two, and a few nucs. The "Roland method" and deep as a super also sound great.

Any other ways to skin this cat?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

The best method I've found to build up your extra drawn frame inventory is to let swarms do most of the work for you. It works just as effectively with deeps or mediums. Capture as many swarms as you can in early spring and set them up in boxes with foundation. Swarms are comb building machines. As the season progresses begin to pinch the less productive queens and start combining. You should end up with a lot of extra drawn frames when you're finished. When you are in your summer dearth it's fairly easy to get the bees to clean up the comb on the frames you have pulled out.


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## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

\
I'll see if I'm lucky enough to hive my first swarm this spring!


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## b2bnz (Apr 5, 2009)

Tom Davidson said:


> Does the yearly culling of frames (I figured I'd start at year 3, and take out say 3 frames, and keep rotating out each year; I also date my frames) include honey supers or is this just for the brood frames?


I try to put them through the system starting new frames in the honey supers for a year or two and then moving them to the brood boxes for another year or two and then cleaning them off and starting the cycle again.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Another vote for drawing them as a honey super. The frames get drawn all the way to the bottom bar that way, which swarms don't do as well.


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## Wesbee (Oct 16, 2012)

I went through winter with 2 deeps, so When I open my hive in spring ,I would think there will be some empty,drawn comb. I hope so as I want a few for swarm traps


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Definitely better to use all the same size frames.

In terms of drawing comb and swarm control I tried "opening the brood nest", then found that "maintaining a hole beside the brood nest" worked just as well without stretching the bees and chilling brood if cold weather sets in.

The method is to:
1. Remove a side frame (ideally with good stores) and place it in the centre of a new box (this box will go on top).
2. Find the edge of the brood nest and place a new frame in-between. So that the brood nest is on one side of the new frame and stores (or the edge) on the other side.
3. After one or two weeks come back and do the same on the other side of the brood nest.
4. In another couple of weeks you may be able to start doing both sides of the brood nest at the same time. (I would keep an eye on the weather forecast as to if you should do this or not.)
5. If you have brood in the edge frames, when you move them up, make sure they are centred above the brood nest in the box above.
6. Do this until the main flow. Then you can start alternating honey frames with new frames in the super(s) and they will draw them out.

I believe you want to start wax building early in the season and can start doing this from when plums are in blossom. Remember you must make sure they have adequate stores of honey/nectar when they are making wax.

Here's a bit more information:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?276670-Maintaining-a-hole-beside-the-brood-nest-comb-building-for-first-year-hives

Matthew Davey


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I use nuclei to draw foundation. Made up in mid-June, the nucs grow in strength and get a 4 frame super of foundation. When the bees draw those 4 combs, I replace 3 of them and replace with foundation. If there's a good flow, I remove 2 more and replace with foundation. 

The 450+ nucs drew out 6-9 frames each. I extracted 3 drums of honey from the nucs before I decided to save the remaining frames of honey for feed. Had 40 hive bodies of honey to use for emergency fall feed.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Michael,

Are you keeping these nuc all with just one super/eight total frames? How closely do you have to watch them so they don't run out of room? 

Tom


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Yeah, 4 over 4 frames. This photo shows a yard of nucs made in June and used to draw foundation. I check them about every 2 weeks and adjust as needed. I don't wait until the combs of honey are fully capped. I replace them when the comb is drawn and mostly full. If the honey isn't quite dry enough, I can dry it in my hot room. Some get too strong and threaten to swarm, so those have brood removed and empty comb added in the bottom box.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Pardon my confusion... 4/4? These look like 8 frame boxes.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Seymore said:


> Pardon my confusion... 4/4? These look like 8 frame boxes.


They might be 10 frames, But each is a duplex.
Right?


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

FlowerPlanter said:


> They might be 10 frames, But each is a duplex.
> Right?


Oh - of course. I fixated on the total of 8. Thanks for the clarification.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Nope, not 8 frame. Double 4 frame nuc boxes with a 4 frame super over each nuc...hence 4 over 4


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

How do you fabricate your division boards for the double 4 frame nuc boxes?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

A 3/4"board rabbeted into the front and back of the box. You can use a 1x12 cut down, or two narrower boards ship-lapped together.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Since we buy our boxes (and they already have handholds milled into them), i've been thinking of trying some strips of masonite stapled to the inside of the box to act as the "rabbit". I know one guy down here that did that, and said he had good luck. Of course, the strips can be simply pulled out if not needed.

deknow


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## captaintat2 (Oct 27, 2012)

johng said:


> during a good flow you can use a deep box as a honey super. Once you harvest the honey you will have drawn deep frames to use later. They get heavy but, getting the drawn comb is worth it.


Does the lighter colored wax that is found in honey comb work as well, (being accepted), as the darker brood comb?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Dean, you only need 1/16" deep rabbet to hold the divider. 





deknow said:


> Since we buy our boxes (and they already have handholds milled into them), i've been thinking of trying some strips of masonite stapled to the inside of the box to act as the "rabbit". I know one guy down here that did that, and said he had good luck. Of course, the strips can be simply pulled out if not needed.
> 
> deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> Dean, you only need 1/16" deep rabbet to hold the divider.


...which is much easier to put on the inside of the box with a table saw _before_ it is assembled....now, if I could figure out a way to work this with the rabbit on the outside, I'd be in business 

deknow (who's nephew is a good worker, and got all the boxes we have in stock assembled)


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

You can make the rabbet with a router if the boxes are assembled. Clamp a cleat inside the box to be used as a guide. Set the depth, of the cutter, and slide the router along the cleat. The depth of the cut should match the frame rest so bees can't cross over. If the hand holds are too deep, and the rabbet will cur into them, make it shallower and add a block between the divider and the frame rest to fill in that gap.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

deknow said:


> ... now, if I could figure out a way to work this with the rabbit on the outside, I'd be in business


If all your boxes are already assembled, and you want to divide just a few, cut a scrap piece to the right size to act as a temporary spacer from inside the box wall, then screw the divider in place. Move the spacer to the other end and repeat, and you're done.

If you have a lot of boxes to do, build a router sled/jig from some scrap, sized to fit against a box edge and guide the router in the right location. Stand the boxes on the side you want to route/dado, clamp the sled, cut the slot. Easy peasy.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Mike, yes, I could also do it with a skill saw and a guide....I was just having fun 

But more seriously, I do think that newer beeks with little equipment on hand (all of it newish), and limited tooling could cut the masonite and the divider with a skill saw and staple in masonite guides with a $10 electric stapler without making any irreversible changes to the equipment...and hopefully without making ay irreversible changes to the number of fingers on each hand. I'm just saying that for someone without a complete shop setup and with limited experience, this could be accomplished safely and easily at a portable work bench outside on a sunny day with a skill saw.

deknow


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Well, true. But I sure wouldn't use Masonite.


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## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

deknow said:


> Mike, yes, I could also do it with a skill saw and a guide....I was just having fun
> 
> But more seriously, I do think that newer beeks with little equipment on hand (all of it newish), and limited tooling could cut the masonite and the divider with a skill saw and staple in masonite guides with a $10 electric stapler without making any irreversible changes to the equipment...and hopefully without making ay irreversible changes to the number of fingers on each hand. I'm just saying that for someone without a complete shop setup and with limited experience, this could be accomplished safely and easily at a portable work bench outside on a sunny day with a skill saw.
> 
> deknow


I so have little equipment, and currently only a skill saw. I saw this vid from the Fat Bee Man and thought it was pretty brilliant a simple queen castle or a double nuc box:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-c6MQbEs14

I'm a big fan of FBM's vids. I think I'll do what deknow said, attach a strip or extra board inside the walls to make my rabbits, and will make this queen castle / double nuc box.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Michael Palmer said:


> Well, true. But I sure wouldn't use Masonite.


What would be the problem with Masonite? Isn't that what Brushy uses in their queen castes?

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Queen-Castle/productinfo/687/


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

it warps and twists and, IMO, isn't thick enough.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Maybe I'm wrong about what Brushy uses. It is smooth on both sides. The two castles that I've used for the past two years have done well - no warping. However, one problem with them is that the dividers are VERY hard to remove once the bees glue them in place. I've almost had to destroy them to get them out.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

AstroBee said:


> Maybe I'm wrong about what Brushy uses. It is smooth on both sides. The two castles that I've used for the past two years have done well - no warping. However, one problem with them is that the dividers are VERY hard to remove once the bees glue them in place. I've almost had to destroy them to get them out.


I use them too, and it is masonite. I can see over time they are not going to cut it and wood is going to be better. Try a hammer- that seems to help crack the seal, but does not work too well when the rest is filled with bees


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Nice pics MP.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I'm making dividers that hang from the frame rests. 3/4" thick stock. No box modification.

Adam


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