# indoor wintering questions



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I think your following the same modle that was mentioned in that big book on beekeeping. To be frank, I dont know anyone following that method, or do I know if it is really reliable or not.

Send them inside, close the doors. keep it black. You have to regulate the temp to about 4 degree or so throughout the winter, to high and the bees will leave the hives. it becomes an issue as spring weather warms.

Keep the box ventalated for exactly the reason your concerned about. Let me know how you make out.

Chow


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

<You have to regulate the temp to about 4 degree or so throughout the winter>

Did you really mean 4 degrees or was this supposed to be 40 degrees?


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Our friends to the north use the metric system - 4 deg C.

Where are you in New Brunswick?

I do not winter indoors so my comments are just thoughts. 
Make sure your ventilation does not allow light into the container.
How is your ventilation set up? Upper unassisted ventilation alone may not be enough to keep co2 from building up.


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## suprstakr (Feb 10, 2006)

Just for fun Sierrabee 4c is actualy 39.42 f . close enoughfor my measure .


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I have a large building and often have thought of using it to winter bees (this year their going to Texas though).

If I placed the bees in the building and left the south door open, say 1 foot x 10 foot.......... Would that allow them to fly and return?? 

My main culprit here, beside temps, is the wind in conjunction with driven snow and cold.


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

Bob,

I am trying (experimenting) something similar to what you are doing. Just yesterday I put 61 hives (those that I couldn't get on the semi to go to CA) in a semi storage van not insulated). I haven't tried wintering any bees up here in several years, so I thought I'd try this. They don't take up much room in the trailer (I don't have anything else in there right now except for about 90 barrels) so I don't think they will be much "warmer" than outside, but they will be out of the wind , which as Bruce indicated can cause major problems here. I am going to keep the door closed and dark inside at all times, unless we get a real warm day between now & March, in which case I can just open the door and let them fly a bit.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Interesting thought.

My feeling is that if opening the door to the shed, having the hives go from darkness to light will drive the bees even crawling on the floor to the light. they will not have oriented themselves to their hives, and will gather outside not knowing enough to enter the building let alone find thier hives.

Just a thought.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

This is a crackup. I home school my grandaughter and I'm going to use this for a math problem. It's the only point on the temperature scale where you can take the last digit off the Farenheit temp and get the centigrade temp.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

<My feeling is that if opening the door to the shed, having the hives go from darkness to light will drive the bees even crawling on the floor to the light. they will not have oriented themselves to their hives, and will gather outside not knowing enough to enter the building let alone find thier hives.>

I remember reading an article in an old Bee Culture that described a shed used for this purpose. As I remember it he had a double door such as they use in bird enclosures with enough space between to allow one door to be opened at a time, except that these doors were light tight. The auther also had a red light inside for when he had to use light. Appearantly the bees do not respond to red light.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Bob, Gregg and Bruce

I winter bees indoors using conventional methods, but have been considering experimenting with configurations similar to yours. I share some of the same concern Ian has mentioned with respect to ventilation, light, and especially bees finding their way back to their own hives.

Bob, does each hive get its own 4 in duct or do several hives share a communal duct?

Keep us posted about your results.


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## bobbb (Oct 16, 2000)

*indoor wintering*

each hive has its own duct. thanks to all that are replying. into first week and everything looks okay. very curious how they do when we get a mild spell.


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## Sherpa1 (Dec 10, 2005)

Sierrabees,
We also homeschool our kids. Here is another Math problem for you: At what temperature would the F scale and the C scale read the same? If you need the answer pm me.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

Sherpa1, what equation could I use to come up with the answer, other than just looking at my thermometer outside?


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

Allen et al,

Not sure if I will ever open the door to the trailer, since we rarely will get "warm" (above 40 dgrees F) from now until March. I have wintered bees inside using "conventional" methods, but this was much easier to move them into the trailer, so I thought I'd try it this year. Not real optimistic about these hives anyway, about half of them I had marked as weak/questionable and wasn't going to send them to CA anyway. So we'll see what happens. If we have a "normal" Winter, I won't open the door until sometime in March, when I move them outside again, and see what's left.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Gregg said:


> Bob,
> 
> I am trying (experimenting) something similar to what you are doing. Just yesterday I put 61 hives (those that I couldn't get on the semi to go to CA) in a semi storage van not insulated). I haven't tried wintering any bees up here in several years, so I thought I'd try this. They don't take up much room in the trailer (I don't have anything else in there right now except for about 90 barrels) so I don't think they will be much "warmer" than outside, but they will be out of the wind , which as Bruce indicated can cause major problems here. I am going to keep the door closed and dark inside at all times, unless we get a real warm day between now & March, in which case I can just open the door and let them fly a bit.


 
You didn't mention anything about ventilation. CO2 buildup will kill them dead if you don't have adiquite air exchange. As far as warmth, don't be surprised if they stay alot warmer than you think, some of the Candian wintering houses are heated most of the year by bee heat alone, assuming there is some insulation, which you don't have.


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

Don't have anything specific for ventilation. This is an old semi trailer van and is far from "airtight". But a lot of space in there and bees not occupying a lot of it, so not real concerned about ventilation. Maybe I should be? We'll see....


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## Shorty (Nov 21, 2007)

This is the second year I’ve wintered my bees in a shed. Last year I had very good luck, the year before that I lost all my hives (wintering outside) before spring.
Here is how I go about it, I have an 20 ft by 18 ft insulated building, I have 2, 100 CFM fans exhausting air, one is on all the time, the other is on a thermostat set it start if the temp goes over 40 degrees F. this year I added a circulating fan set at the lowest setting, to move the air and help keep things dry. 
The building is totally dark all air intakes and outlets are ducted so no light can enter the building. I also added a very good door that closes out both light and air. 
I add heat when the air temp goes below 30 degrees F or if the humidity goes over 50%.(?)
The thing that I had the most problems with last year was high humidity (over 60%) the hives had a lot of molds growing, so that is something to watch.
This is not a firm set of rules as I’ve only tried it once, but a start. Keep us all posted and we’ll learn together.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>most problems with last year was high humidity (over 60%) the hives had a lot of molds growing, so that is something to watch.


I have found that increasing your indoor air curculation eliminates that problem. Keeps things drier.
Guys here that winter in buildings twice the size of our sheds actually run ventings once over the top center of the building, and then agian along the sides bottoms of the building. They do that to increase ventalation and air movement to reduce mold problems.


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## thebee (Jan 19, 2006)

where are the intake and exhaust located?


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I'm debating on the idea of buying a 40' shipping container, and then insulating and outfitting for wintering nucs in. Could be a costly project, may not work, but would be fun to try.

The other idea I had was making a bunch of 8' X 8' building to have bees in year around....we'll see.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

thebee said:


> where are the intake and exhaust located?


In thier sheds, it is seperate from the inside air circulation system. These fans are on 24 hours 7 days, where as the ventalation fan curculates as it is programed.


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## Shorty (Nov 21, 2007)

Ian said:


> >>most problems with last year was high humidity (over 60%) the hives had a lot of molds growing, so that is something to watch.
> 
> 
> I have found that increasing your indoor air curculation eliminates that problem. Keeps things drier.
> Guys here that winter in buildings twice the size of our sheds actually run ventings once over the top center of the building, and then agian along the sides bottoms of the building. They do that to increase ventalation and air movement to reduce mold problems.


So, do you think 60% is a good target to shoot for. I'm also worried that we could dry things to much. don't the bees kind of rely on that moister for drinking water. Thanks


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Shorty said:


> So, do you think 60% is a good target to shoot for.


I am always much more concerned about moisture levels being too high than too low.

My wintering room is set up in such a way that I draw fresh air from another part of the building. The theory behind this is that this room will provide a buffer for cold or warm days. It buffers the outside temperatures well, but one year this part had very high humidity levels in fall. I was drawing lots of air through the wintering room with a 16 inch barn fan and was running it constantly as it was still quite warm outside. Because of these high humidity levels, brood rearing began early in winter. If this early brood rearing didn't do enough damage, I allow the temperature to drop to about 25 - 28 for a while, which resulted in the smaller hives staving on the brood as they wouldn't move the cluster to new food sources. My winter losses were plus 50% that year.

Since then I have made sure my intake moisture is not high and in winter have never really worried about being to dry. If feeding occurs too late in fall and the bees didn't have an opportunity to dry the syrup, the inside of the hive can become very humid as well. Even in the dead of winter I still run the 16 fan about 7 minutes an hour. I also find keeping the temperature around 40 degrees helps the smaller hives survive better.

I do have a number of ceiling fans that I run at full blast all winter to circulate the air. In spring the strong air current helps keep the bees in their hives if the temperature gets to warm. Shoveling snow into the wintering room cools things down quickly in spring as well.

As far as bees needing water, the bees will release a water vapor all winter long as they use the honey and syrup.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Shoveling snow into the wintering room cools things down quickly in spring as well.


Isnt that the most useful tip to have on a warm late winter day.
I used it last year and it sure cooled the building down quick, and sent the bees back in within minutes.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>So, do you think 60% is a good target to shoot for. I'm also worried that we could dry things to much. don't the bees kind of rely on that moister for drinking water. Thanks

Shorty, being from South Dakota, you are probably familiar with canola honey. That honey can be real hard to eat "sometimes" with indoor wintering hives. Why? Because of the sometimes dry winter air inside the wintering shed, and indoor hives tend to be managed smaller than outdoor hives if wintering in singles.
I know of some guys that through snow inside the shed during long cool spells, usually lower humidity climates. Gives the bees something to soften that honey with.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Hey Allen, hows the bees looking this fall?
How did you guys fair for a honey crop in your area?


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## Ardilla (Jul 17, 2006)

Aside...



WVbeekeeper said:


> what equation could I use to come up with the answer, other than just looking at my thermometer outside?


°F = (°C x 1.8) + 32

or

°C = (°F - 32) x 5/9

Hint: bees don't fly at the crossover temp.


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## thebee (Jan 19, 2006)

How often can you check on the indoor bees? will they start rearing brood if its too often?

thanks


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

thebee said:


> How often can you check on the indoor bees? will they start rearing brood if its too often?



I wander in several times a week, especially if temperatures are changing outside. I don't think this causes them to start brood rearing. If I turn the white lights on I'll have a couple of bees flying to the lights but nothing major. Red lights cause very little bee activity.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Hi Ian

Most of the beekeepers in our area did fairly well this year. We came in around 190 lbs per hive.

Not so sure about the bees going into winter. About half of our producing hives had a good late alfalfa flow and look great going into winter. A lot of our fall yards usually have good wild flower blooms that help produce good winter bees. These flowers all bloomed very early and I think those bees shut down too early. Probably should have pattied them in the beginning of September. I put out some Bee-Pro which they took, so I hope that helped. I keeping my fingers crossed on those. We pattied and fed the nucs right through Aug and Sept, so they looking pretty good as well. Only 4 and half months of waiting to really tell I guess.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

you did good at 109 lbs/hive. My operation came in at 165lbs. thats inculuding my nucs, that came in produceing heavey into the first and second flow.
Our flow stopped first week of Aug, and never came back on. The buckwheat and alfalfa came on and went right into Mid Sept, but only with pollen, not enough surplus nectar!
Bees are in great shape, alot better than last fall,


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

Update: opened the door on the trailer for the first time and took a look at the bees in there, on Feb 16. Prognosis: not good. Of 61 hives in there, 32 were dead. Not really surprised as about 1/2 of these hives were not in good shape last Fall, but still a little disappointing. Live ones seemed very strong. Plan on moving them outside sometime next month.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Gregg were you able to tell what caused the dead ones to die? We are toying with idea of wintering bees indoors in ND and shipping them to CA the end of Jan. for almonds.


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

Not positive on all of them Nick. Some starved (that were light last Fall), others looked like they just dwindled and didn't make it (were weak last Fall). As stated before, this is just a 48 foot semi storage van, certainly not designed for wintering bees, which I knew going into this . I'm mainly going to use it to store supers and/or barrels in. It is black on the outside, which I've wondered if it got too warm in there for them (and also wonder if I'll have to paint the outside white before I store any supers in there, if it would get hot enough in there to cause comb to sag?).

I know of at least a couple of oufits that winter in potato cellars in ID (and I'm sure you know who they are, and others) with very good success from what I hear. A facility which can control the temperature/humidity/air exchange is needed.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Thanks for the update Gregg

I ended up having a similar setup to yours this year. I ran out of space in my main wintering shed so I put 150 hives in another building. There is a 8 inch square intake hole on one side and a 12 square hole on the other side of the building where a furnace fan is installed. I have not run the fan in winter, its more for warmer temperatures in spring. Inside I have a small heater for colder periods and a 30-inch fan on the floor to circulate the air. Not very sophisticated, but so far the survival has been great in there.

As far as storing supers in the van, I'd be concerned about wax moths if it was a warm fall.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I am considering switching the rest of my operation to indoor wintering. Right now I winter something like a third indoors, and the rest outdoors.

This has been a cold winter, and my indoor hives "seem" to be holding quite well. I have been quick checking some of my outdoor yards and it doesnt look as promissing. They sure went into winter well, but right now they dont look so good. I have been making quick spot check assesments of losses of 20-40% in some yards. We have been just soo cold here, and I think only my exeptional hives are going to strive through this one!

I use to always say, winter in and out, and average my losses!


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Spring is the biggest negative to indoor wintering. Once things begin to warm up and you have a lot a bees to move out, time becomes a factor. Another problem is this part of Manitoba is getting into the spring yards--a 3 foot rise in elevation is a mountain here.

A solution to this I've been using on a small scale and may use on a larger scale is a holding yard. I think I'll start moving the bees out into a holding yard where I can feed, medicate, patty and remove the weak and deadouts. Then during a cooler period and hopefully drier period I can move the bees to the spring yards.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>holding yard. I think I'll start moving the bees out into a holding yard where I can feed, medicate, patty and remove the weak and deadouts. Then during a cooler period and hopefully drier period I can move the bees to the spring yards.


That is what I do also. Sure works great!

Ya, indoor also has its disadvantages, you know I had less wintering losses with my indoor last year, but I made up more splits from my outdoor hives. Sometimes its a bit of a toss up.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Gregg we are wintering all our bees indoors in Idaho now. Our building is big enough for about 7,000 hives so if we want to winter more we need another building. We have some room in ND and thought about leaving a couple loads there and trying it out. They would more than likely have to be shipped to Ca in refers due to the cold temps in ND.
It seems like the bees we put in storage come out looking about the same as they looked going into storage. I am curious to hear how the rest of your bees come out. Do you have fans in your trailer?


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## Shorty (Nov 21, 2007)

*Crossed Fingers*

I looked into my Hives this last week and they all seem to be alive. some of the weak ones I fed sugar before I put them into the storage shed, but they to seem to be weak but alive. but I won't uncross my fingers yet.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Poked into a few other yards today, and the losses arent as bad as the previous yards. Running a quick count of 7%, 23%, 20%. The live ones seem to be full. I could live with a 20% average loss this year if the survivours are going to look as strong as the few lids I opened!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>They would more than likely have to be shipped to Ca in refers due to the cold temps in ND.


Interesting thought. Are you saying start to winter them in the modified trailer, and then drag it to California when your ready to take them?
That might just be so crazy it might work! Though, it would cost alot more to transport.

YOud be setting out winter bees to pollinate. 
How would a hive, that has prepaired itself for the winter, respond to a sudden shift to California weather mid winter season? Are your winter bees going to maintain thier long life, or does it completely decrease as they start to manage brood?


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

The bees would be loaded into refers out of a building. I don't think you could haul them on flatbeds do to the extreme cold in ND and Montana at that time of year.
Bees coming out of our building in Idaho are fine when they get to Ca. They tend to make white trucks brown and yellow but they go to work and fly hard. The main thing is to make sure they go into the building healthy and strong. They would only be in a building for about 90 days tops.
I would have to say all the bees in CA are winter bees unless they were on the coast. Maybe I am wrong on this?


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## Mabe (Mar 22, 2005)

Is there still a commercial beekeeper in Canada using polystyrene hives and wintering outdoors? Thought I read about that somewhere in Beesource. It would be nice to hear some history on the polystyrene in cold climates. 

Mabe


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

Nick, nope, no fans in trailer. Think it got too warm in this trailer, with it being black on the outside and the heat of the hives inside. Checked again yesterday, about 10:30 in the morning when the outside temp was around 25 (full sun), temp in the trailer was about 50. Too warm, more dead hives. First & last time for that experiment, shoulda left them outside.

Several years ago I tried wintering on a small scale in a building (hot room actually) with very good success (wintered in single deeps). Almost all made it and were full of bees when moved outside in late March/early April.


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