# ? - Developing Warre comb in advance using Langstroth hives



## JConnolly

I have decided I want to expand to 4 hives. Right now I have 10 frame and 8 frame medium Langstroths. I have looked at the KTBH and the Warre hive as alternatives to try something different. I have decided I would like to try a modified Warre (my state requires movable frames). So building a Warre hive is on my summer project list so I can put a package in it next spring. I have a pile of 5/4 cedar, a bunch of plexiglass for observation windows, and a well equipped woodworking shop so I can build one for the just the cost of time that I would spend in the shop anyways. 

I want to give the new colony a good head start so I have been thinking of ways to develop some usable comb in a Langstroth hive and I am open to ideas. My leading idea for now is to zip tie a couple of Warre top bars into a couple of empty Lanstroth frames and insert one between drawn frames in a honey super in each of my Langstroth hives. Then a few days later remove the frame, cut the zip ties, and remove the top bar. After this I'll have to figure out how to very gently attach the side frames to the Warre top bar so it can be a moveable frame. This way I can maybe develop a few frames that I can store for a new package next spring.

Bad idea? Good idea? Over-thinking it? Other ideas? Nuts for wanting to try a Warre?


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## SquirrellyOne

I'm new and just starting, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt or three. I did lots of reading and personally decided that what I like about Warre hives is the quilt, so I just made quilts and vented roof sections to fit 8 frame Langstroth hive bodies. Best of both worlds? Certainly could simplify your comb building problem. We'll see when my packages arrive in a week or two (and see more a year from now about overwintering performance).


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## JConnolly

I have 8 frame langstroths already. All my (limited) experience, both from working my grandfather's bees and now my own is with langstroths and I have no plans to change that. However I still like to experiment and I picked a warre design to expand one hive into solely to satisfy my own curiosity, call it a science experiment, after all I even keep a lab notebook :scratch: . With all the debate on the subject I think the best way to form an opinion on the different alternatives is to try them myself. Another beek on another forum indicated that he does what I was proposing by by zip tying a top bar to a langstroths frame to pre draw comb. Later this summer I'll post my results.


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## MuttBee Mama

I'm an experimenter too, J, working with both lang and Warre'. My results lead me to get rid of the lang equipment altogether. I'm strictly Warre' now. 

I took what I think may be a little simpler route to the pre-drawn comb solution. I just cut clean comb from lang frames and attached it with big rubber bands to my Warre' frames. The bees took to it right away, binding it properly to the frame. Eventually the rubber bands broke and were removable. That way I didn't have the mess (or potential frustration) of attaching the side bars on soft comb.


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## odfrank

The comb square inches of a modified Warre is almost identical to a medium Langstroth frame, so my recommendation is also just add Warre appliances to an eight frame medium, primarily the quilt box. The only advantage of a Warre is that they are "cute". Definitely stay away from topbar Warres. I am currently supering my Warres with eight frame Langs.


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## MuttBee Mama

I had a variety of hives last year, including an 8 frame lang that I used following Warre' principles. It worked fine during the year, but I got rid of it for several reasons. First, because of the difference in harvesting the honey. Since I want my naturalized bees to rebuild comb every year, I'm foundationless and crushing is my only harvesting option. That's not a problem with top bars or modified 3 sided bars. It was easy. But getting comb out of those darned lang frames was a colossal pain and made a HUGE mess. 

The second reason I dumped the lang was because, while the bees drew beautiful straight comb in their warre' frames, they built comb running every which-a-way in the lang frames. They would connect big chunks of frames together that had to be cut apart over and over again. I spoke with one of my mentors about it and she told me it takes bees upwards of 3 years of continual frame manipulation to draw straight comb in a foundationless lang. Yet they got it right straight out of the gate with the Warre' equipment. Bye-bye Lang!


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## Kathleen Bourn

I'm in my second year but I seem to be trying every kind of hive I can build or get my hands on.
I started with 8/med Langs. Now I have 2 Warres and 2 Tanzanian Top Bars built to the size of medium Lang frames.
I also have a hollow log cut into supers as a hive.
I've experimented with moving comb among all the hives and so far for me it works best to wire the empty comb wherever I want it.
My top bars are V cut as the guide so I just take 8" copper wire (very light wire that came with some garden tags I had) and drill a small hole through the V and then run the wire about 3" down and through the comb and back up to tie it together. If the comb is empty I just use 2 wires. Then I take a little butane torch (the kind used for cooking) to soften the wax and then press it into the bar. They soon attach it better themselves and I just cut the wire off.
I tried the rubber bands and it works OK but I always envision the surprise to the bees when the rubber band snaps free. YIKES.
Plus they have to remove it from the hive.
I'm up for trying any other ideas.


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## BernhardHeuvel

It is the bee that makes the honey, not the hive. 

Seems frameless beekeeping just doesn't fit to you, Frank. Reckon' you are just used to frames and never learned the traditional way to keep bees in fixed comb hives. But that's no reason to go on a crusade against the Warré, just because it is not your favourite tool, isn't it?

Modern auto mechanics can't repair a car anymore if it hasn't an interface they can plug their diagnosis computer to. They claim to have the better cars today, and computerless cars are useless (because they can't repair it). But sure I like the motors without any computers integrated. That are true motors for me.

And although comparisons are difficult per se, it is a little like this with fixed comb hives. It is rough oldstyle beekeeping. But don't you just love that grunt of that old V8? I certainly do. 

Fixed comb beekeeping looks primitive. Primitive skills do look easy, like flint knapping, but after trying it, you'll see that it is not as primitive as it appears to be. Much more human and bee skills needed without that fancy technical stuff. So don't blame the hive. It is as good as any other hive. As said, it is the bee that makes the honey, not the hive. We would keep hives instead of bees, if it would be other way round.

To all. Learn to let your bees prosper and thrive. Honey will follow.


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## cristianNiculae

I would cut a frame of brood and put it in a warre box and place the box on the place of the lang.

or better

make a Taranov split and with the same frame of brood populate the new warre

or like odfrank - the adaptor method

The box suits the beekeeper. The bees don't care.

P.S.
Bernhard how many boxes has your best hive? I guess you need to anchor them. In my area occasionally I get very strong gusts of wind (100km/h maybe).


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## BeekeepingIsGood

I make nuc boxes to fit on top of my warré boxes and I put warré frames in there to make sure I get drawn comb that I can then move down. 




My warré dimensions are slightly adjusted from traditional, I make them slightly deeper so less cuts are required with common American 10" wood boards, this also means my warré frame depth fits very nice in a deep lang box.

I used langs for 6 years, now I'm just using framed modified warré hives. Entering my 4th year with them, it's still a bit of an experiment still, I've certainly learned a bunch about bee behaviour in managing a differently shaped hive, and so far there's lots I prefer about small narrow hive boxes.


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## BernhardHeuvel

I am not completely narrow mined on Warré or Gatineau hives. Some beginners I recommend to use a frame hive, because I reckon' it better suits them. The right tool is a relative thing. Relative to the user. This is a German standard hive.



















As can be seen, you can make honey in any sort of hive. This is his first winter and he made two shallows worth of honey at the start of May. And this is not Cali. 


















The secret is bees, the rest is only a tool. Also I am teaching fearless beekeeping without astronaut suits. 

To get back on topic: wouldn't do any comb in advance. Bees draw a full box in less than a couple of days. Just make sure, you get enough bees in that hive and keep strong hives. Get good queens, makes life so much easier. Care for good nourishment of the bees and prevent any starving and the shear mass of bees will sort out any comb producing problem. You need a nectar flow, though.


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## JConnolly

BeekeepingIsGood said:


>


Exactly what I was looking for!!! Thanks for the idea.


Bernard, keep up the flow of good information. I've learned a lot from your posts and even just from seeing your pictures. Thanks a bunch. I'm very curious about the Warre method for some reason - I'm finding myself drawn to it and find myself thinking about it a lot. Adding a Warre will be next summer's adventure, but I wanted to do some prep work like build the hive and develop some comb this summer.


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## johnsof

OK, for what it is worth...I have had good experience with the bees drawing out good comb in a Warré frame attached to a Lang upper frame bar IF I have foundation in the Warré frame. If I do NOT have foundation then they are just as likely to start attaching comb on the Lang frame bar or someplace else. They seem to behave very well if I use the foundation and make a mess if I don't. I haven't done enough of this to say it is always going to work that way, but so far, so good. I should add, sometimes I use full-width foundation and sometimes partial-width foundation, and this doesn't seem to make any difference on how they draw out the Warré frames, as long as there was foundation there they only draw comb inside the frame. I also use wax foundation, I don't really have any experience to speak of with plastic foundation.


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## BeekeepingIsGood

I got tired of messing with the twist ties. I came up with a new design that uses proper bee space and a turning block to hold the frames. I've updated the blog post about it with the new details.


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## Little-John

The OP was concerned with whether pre-drawing comb is a good idea - and in my limited experience of doing this a couple of times, my opinion is 'most certainly, yes'.

I kept it as simple as possible, and tie-wrapped a set of Warre frames (108mm Delon wire-frames, to be precise) underneath National frame top bars. When these were drawn-out, I simply cut those frames away from their hosts, and transferred them, along with the bees, into Russian 'Alpine' (Warre variant) boxes. No fuss, no drama. No stacking a brood box over a Warre box and hoping they'll move down. No need for a funnel to pour bees in, as some recommend. No need to make any special gizmo's of any kind - as you're probably only going to be doing this procedure once or twice.

Just a simple frame swap-over - it really doesn't get any easier.
LJ


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## jadebees

@ Bernhard, regarding fearless beekeeping. Local bees here usually carry some AHB. genetics. As most of my bees are wild caught, occasionally a colony will make you Very afraid, without the beesuit. I remember the past, it wasn't always that way. I can only wish to not need a suit most times. I'm just jealous. Happy beekeeping!


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