# vm Vaporizer



## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I have been talking to my Provincial Apiculturalist about getting a vm Vaporizer and showed him the site, he asked me about dosage amounts and how anyone can properly do it without overdoing it.
I know 2.0g is the dosage per colony. It does present a valid question, I know it's good to give them a nice cloud of vapour but how do you know you are not overdoing it and just causing problems ?

I have asked the manufacturer today about this issue and wanted to see what you all thought that have one of these units. I am all for keeping bees mite loads down but I want to do it properly.

Thanks,
Ben


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I tried overdoing it and the bees handled it fine. Apparently bees can handle very large dosages. My experience confirms this. Just get one, you will be satisifed with the purchase as opposed to dissatisfied. You will use it for years to come. We got good results with ours and plan to use it again.

Jean-Marc


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Do you do your treatments in the spring as well as the fall ? I am curious if it would benefit doing an OA treatment before they go to pollination the end of May. Since we never really did it when brood was present, I am not sure the buffer period on OA to put on honey supers.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

OAV does not harm any mites under capped brood. Mites reproduce under capped brood.

Bees are mostly broodless in Dec so that is best time if you plan on a single treatment. A single treatment can be getting pretty late as any significant mite infestation is going to have a negative affect on the health of winter bees.

The recommendation from Medhat Nasr, our provincial apiarist, is to do OAV treatment in fall and use Apivar in early spring(install one strip per five deep frames of bees) This provides for rotation of treatment products and will help to mitigate resistance build up. Apivar is costly so one may only need two strips in early spring as opposed to some four strips in the fall.

If there is brood present, OAV needs to be done a minimum of three times no more than seven days apart. This is to kill off mites emerging with emerging bees. I have done some six treatments a week a part and no harm to the hive. Three day dead mite count was higher than 30.

Personally, I plan to start OAV in early Sept with a goal of raising healthy winter bees. Some wait until late Sept to start as they are concerned about mite infestation from neighboring hives, if they do it earlier.

I know of some who do a single OA drench in late October but their winter survival numbers are not great.

I think the general consensus is to that there is no wait time after OAV to add honey supers.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks mgolden. I understand that OA does nothing to mites in capped brood, I am just trying to mix things up a bit to see if we can get away from Apivar , or at least give it a rest for a year. 
I had an issue with Apivar this year, it might have been a bad batch but I had more than acceptable levels of mites in some colonies and I know they had strips applied to them.
I am just worried that Apivar is losing it's touch and need another ace up my sleeve to battle these darn mites.


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## yousowise (Apr 14, 2011)

As far as dosing goes, you could weigh an amount of oxalic say 20gm put it in your device and time how long it burns, say 10 min. So 2gm per minute. Like other's have said though its pretty hard to overdose them.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I did 3 rounds of treatment using the vm vaporizer this spring and saw no adverse affects to the bees. When I had things working properly, it worked out to about 2 grams a hives. My experience was the same as Jean-Marc's with regards to overdosing a hive; seems to be no problem for the hive. It is easy to get the vm to hot and blow out formic acid instead of oxalic. I got the best results if I added the OA when the vm was a bit to cool and allowed it to warm up. Once it was smoking good and proper I only applied heat intermittently. You can do an incredible number of hives in a short time with the vm.

This fall I intend to do three rounds at the beginning of sept and a couple more rounds later when the bees are broodless. Based upon what I saw in spring, I expect the bees to go into winter with very low might levels.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Allen, it's interesting to read that you had to turn the heat off with the toggle switch to control temperature. The ability to do many hives in a day is certainly a nice feature of the vmVaporizer.

Jean-Marc


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Allen Martens said:


> I did 3 rounds of treatment using the vm vaporizer this spring and saw no adverse affects to the bees. When I had things working properly, it worked out to about 2 grams a hives. My experience was the same as Jean-Marc's with regards to overdosing a hive; seems to be no problem for the hive. It is easy to get the vm to hot and blow out formic acid instead of oxalic. I got the best results if I added the OA when the vm was a bit to cool and allowed it to warm up. Once it was smoking good and proper I only applied heat intermittently. You can do an incredible number of hives in a short time with the vm.
> 
> This fall I intend to do three rounds at the beginning of sept and a couple more rounds later when the bees are broodless. Based upon what I saw in spring, I expect the bees to go into winter with very low might levels.


If you don't mind me asking, what other treatments are you using ? Are you having issues with Apivar not doing a good job like I did this year ?


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ben. Apivar was not working well for me last year. I treated with apivar in the fall of 2014. In the spring of 2015 mite levels were as high as 10%. After testng for effectiveness I decided to use apivar in spring but only had time for a three week treatment. Treated in fall with apivar and it soon became apparent that apivar was not working well. Some hives were running as high as 8%. I had the mites tested for ssusceptibility to apivar and the test showed susceptibility but I didn't like the real world results. In October of 2015 I treated twice with formic using mite wipes and also did a OAD. This halfed my mite levels. This spring I treated 3 times with the vm and also did one round of mite wipes. The highest mite levels I found a couple of weeks ago was 1.5%. That's a little higher than I would like but an happy considering where I've come from.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Jean-Marc. I was working on my own so maybe that is why I the gun was overheating, though I doubt I could have gone much faster with help. The first time I used the vm I was having some issues getting a good cloud. Ed suggested adding extra doses which seemed to work but I started spurting liquid OA out the bottom. It dawned on me that the reason I was getting good smoke now was the OA was further from the heater and vaporizing properly. After I started toggling the heater on and off I could regularly to 10+ hives with one dose. If I have one criticism of the vmvaporizer it is that the heater is not thermostatically control. However, it may be more efficient using the toggle to control the temperature. Fantastic machine.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ben if you are going to do OAV a good respirator is a must. I have a 3M Ultimate FX Full Facepiece respirator FF-402. Excellent protection and I've had no problems with it fogging up.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Allen Martens said:


> Ben. Apivar was not working well for me last year. I treated with apivar in the fall of 2014. In the spring of 2015 mite levels were as high as 10%. After testng for effectiveness I decided to use apivar in spring but only had time for a three week treatment. Treated in fall with apivar and it soon became apparent that apivar was not working well. Some hives were running as high as 8%. I had the mites tested for ssusceptibility to apivar and the test showed susceptibility but I didn't like the real world results. In October of 2015 I treated twice with formic using mite wipes and also did a OAD. This halfed my mite levels. This spring I treated 3 times with the vm and also did one round of mite wipes. The highest mite levels I found a couple of weeks ago was 1.5%. That's a little higher than I would like but an happy considering where I've come from.


Well at least I'm not the only one seeing poor results from Apivar on occasion. I was hoping that not using Apivar for a year and just trying Formic, MAQS or OA would kind of put a reset in the effectiveness of Apivar, Don't get me wrong, I think it used to do a wonderful job but rotating it from only spring to fall vise versa is not enough, I think I will go 1 year rotation and have to get an OA blower. I can't afford to let mites get out of hand like this summer !!


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Allen Martens said:


> Ben if you are going to do OAV a good respirator is a must. I have a 3M Ultimate FX Full Facepiece respirator FF-402. Excellent protection and I've had no problems with it fogging up.


I haven't been able to find a local supplier, they have three sizes, how do you determine what size to order? all my friends say I have a big head, but I'm not sure it's in reference to respirators thanks


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I purchase mine from amazon. I tend to need larger hats and helmet sizes as well and a medium works well for. Bit of a gamble when irdering online. I bought lens protector films as well which have worked well.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Allen Martens said:


> I purchase mine from amazon. I tend to need larger hats and helmet sizes as well and a medium works well for. Bit of a gamble when irdering online. I bought lens protector films as well which have worked well.


thanks


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## GoodyFarms (Jul 10, 2016)

Fyi...coming from a guy who uses filter cartridge weekly for work, make sure you do your homework on how long the filters will last. The breakthrough time is dependent on exposure time and concentrate but one thing is for sure, the filters last less time than you'd think. Don't depend on your sense of smell as a warning signal either as breakthrough is often gradual and you get used to it. Not something the average hobbiest has to deal with as the pan style vaporizers don't give off a ton of fumes outside the hive but you commercial guys with the Vm's need to be careful.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

GoodyFarms said:


> Fyi...coming from a guy who uses filter cartridge weekly for work, make sure you do your homework on how long the filters will last. The breakthrough time is dependent on exposure time and concentrate but one thing is for sure, the filters last less time than you'd think. Don't depend on your sense of smell as a warning signal either as breakthrough is often gradual and you get used to it. Not something the average hobbiest has to deal with as the pan style vaporizers don't give off a ton of fumes outside the hive but you commercial guys with the Vm's need to be careful.


So if I were to do my best to stay out of the vapours, is there a way to "judge" the lifespan of the cartridge ? I have been reading on chemical cartridges and they have no actual time frame, only what you described. Would a solid 8 hours using the VM be a safe amount of time for the filters ?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ben Little said:


> So if I were to do my best to stay out of the vapours, is there a way to "judge" the lifespan of the cartridge ? I have been reading on chemical cartridges and they have no actual time frame, only what you described. Would a solid 8 hours using the VM be a safe amount of time for the filters ?


The 3M rep I spoke with said that with organic vapours like OA or Formic that you'll start to taste or smell it when the cartridge needs to be replaced. Keep the respirator in a sealed ziplock bag (mine came with one) - to extend the life. If this was something like isocyanates than Goodyfarms is spot on with you not being able to taste it.


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## GoodyFarms (Jul 10, 2016)

While I respect the rep's advice, I disagree. While my background is with much much much more toxic gasses (phosphine, fluorine, hydrogen chloride), waiting until you can taste/smell it is very bad advice and can lead to inadvertent exposure. The fancy term for this effect if you want to research it is olfactory fatigue.


In your situation it is going to be difficult to calculate exposure without some fairly expensive gear (like a Draeger X-am 5100...~$1400) or a pretty good chemistry background and equipment (air sampling and then titration). 

An inexpensive thing you could do that's not the best, but better than relying on your smell is to:
1. Buy a roll of inexpensive pH paper (litmus)
2. Every time you use your mask, wet a small piece of it and affix it INSIDE your mask where it's not in contact with your skin and preferably where incoming air is
3. Look at that paper after you're done treating. If you see appreciable color change then the air coming in is bringing acidic oxalic vapor and you definitely should change your cartridges.

If it were me, I would be changing the cartridges at absolute MINIMUM once a year and if you have 2 "seasons" of treatments (i.e. 4 weeks in spring and 4 weeks in fall), I would change them before each season. 

For 3M masks you're going to want the 6003 Organic Vapor/Acid Gas Cartridge. For MSA Advantage 3100 full face respirators you'll want the 815357 cartridges. Personally, I've owned both 3M and MSA equipment and find the MSA equipment much much more comfortable. That's just me though, some people like 3M better. 


A few tips. 
1. Write on the cartridge when (date) you opened it and then put a hash mark every time you use it.
2. Get some nasty smelling but harmless chemical and use it to determine mask fit. If you don't have a good fit, the respirator isn't going to do a good job. Bee go is a great one to use as it's an organic acid and should be filtered out by the two cartridges I suggested. 
3. If you have a beard...shave it. You won't get a good seal with one. Many chemical companies actually ban facial hair for this reason, so in case they have to use escape respirators they will work.
4. Do a seal test every time you put on a mask. Hold your hands over the filters and suck in and then old your hand over the air exit and blow out. 


Final word: 
*A set of two cartridges costs <$15....how much does a trip to the doctor cost or time lost due to injury cost? Your health is valuable. Replace them often!*


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

Are any of you Canadians still using Apistan? With all the recent use of amitraz/formic/OA you'd think the mites would be pretty susceptible to fluvalinate again. I personally have never used it since the residues build up in the comb.



Allen Martens said:


> Ben. Apivar was not working well for me last year. I treated with apivar in the fall of 2014. In the spring of 2015 mite levels were as high as 10%. After testng for effectiveness I decided to use apivar in spring but only had time for a three week treatment. Treated in fall with apivar and it soon became apparent that apivar was not working well. Some hives were running as high as 8%. I had the mites tested for ssusceptibility to apivar and the test showed susceptibility but I didn't like the real world results. In October of 2015 I treated twice with formic using mite wipes and also did a OAD. This halfed my mite levels. This spring I treated 3 times with the vm and also did one round of mite wipes. The highest mite levels I found a couple of weeks ago was 1.5%. That's a little higher than I would like but an happy considering where I've come from.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I tried them 2 springs ago and by the time the 6 week treatment period was up, we had started moving into blueberries. I was not able to track these colonies down to perform washes. Long and short of it, I don't know for sure if the mites had reverted back to a high susceptibility to Apistan. Like many things in beekeeping even with the best laid out plans or intentions, stuff comes up and gets in the way.

Jean-Marc


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## pleasantvalley (May 22, 2014)

Hey Jean-Marc, I see you got your vaporizer last fall. I have been calling, texting, emailing etc the manufacturer with no response for a week now. Did you have it shipped right to your shop or do you have one of those border PO boxes, UPS etc? I've never seen a business try so hard to avoid potential customers, since I'm looking to order 2 asap. I have one of the Cowan machines that they manufactured several years ago, and while it works okay and looks fancy, it's just way too slow.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I also tested a couple hives with strips and sticky boards last year. Very poor drops on sticky boards.

Another beekeeper I know used Apistan last year with good results.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Edward, the vmVaporizer man can be real slow getting back to people. I am 20 minutes from the border so I also act as a customs broker and bring in some beekeeping supplies.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Allen Martens said:


> I also tested a couple hives with strips and sticky boards last year. Very poor drops on sticky boards.
> 
> Another beekeeper I know used Apistan last year with good results.


I know a guy who used Apistan also this spring and is scrambling right now with high mite counts


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Ben Little said:


> So if I were to do my best to stay out of the vapours, is there a way to "judge" the lifespan of the cartridge ? I have been reading on chemical cartridges and they have no actual time frame, only what you described. Would a solid 8 hours using the VM be a safe amount of time for the filters ?


As a vapor cartridge begins to fail you will begin to get a hint of the odor of the OA. A particulate filter will become harder to breath through. Proper handling of a respirator includes regular changing of the cartridges. as well as proper removal and storage of cartridges while not in use. It does not do much good to use a respirator that fails. proper care and use resolves such issues.


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## Woodside (Aug 10, 2010)

How many seconds per hive do you guys use the vmvaporizer?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Pleasant Valley :

I talked to the vmVaporizer folks a few days ago. They were having an internal dispute, between the partners. These things have been sorted and they will be taking orders again. They also said that in about a month they will have an improved version of their apparatus. I am not sure what improvements are being made.

We get a lot of supplies sent to Sumas Washington. It is a border town about 20 minutes driving time from our house. I then put on my broker hat and get the goods in the USA and bring them in to Canada. I have done it many times now and so it is relatively easy now.

We vaporize the hives for 6 seconds or so. We wait until we see smoke coming out of the colonies. We vaporized some hives for about twice as long with no apparent ill effects. It is remarkable that colonies can take it. 

Jean-Marc


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## pleasantvalley (May 22, 2014)

Thanks for the update jean-marc! I noticed a few days ago that the order form on their website was taken off. We have a UPS broker available, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to ship to a border town. I just wondered about that since they were using PayPal as the payment service. Will you be using your machine again this fall? I figured with 2 units, I could run through my whole operation in a week.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I vaporize the hives for about 5 to 6 seconds as well for singles. I was surprised to find that this only worked out to about 1.25 g per hive. The hives were only vaporized if the gun was smoking heavily.

This last round I was in and out of a yards of 80 in 30 min working by myself.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Ivwon't be busing it this fall. I will leave that to my crew. They can do it this year. I figure I've done my time. We started a few yards this weekend. The guys had to get a bit of practice at it. We will do this to our bees in Alberta. The ones on the coast we will do or have done MAQS and will do the oxalic fumigation later on. Late October onwards.

Our Alberta bees are currently in yards of 54 pallets. I figure that should take 90 minutes or so. A bit of driving. One man should be able to do 4 yards easily in a day. I would like to do each hive 3-4 times over the next 3 weeks. With the way temperatures are cooling off colonies will be near broodless and a last time after that and we should be pretty clean.

I figure that even if the mites manage to survive the treatments it is unlikely that they have much reproductive
energy left. It is likely why some hives not having been treated since last January, are still at zero mites on an alcohol wash of 300 bees. This in spite of being in 1 or 2 pollination jobs and other colonies being nearby.

So apparently the neighbor ain't the problem.

Jean-Marc


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