# first time selling nucs question



## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

When someone comes to buy nucs, what is the normal process? Does the seller have it put together waiting for the buyer? Do they go out in the yard together and pull frames from whatever hives to put the correct frames together? Are the boxes screwed shut for shipping or just screen stapled to it?


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

A nuc should be a functional colony with a laying queen and brood in all stages laid up by that queen. Grabbing arbitrary frames from multiple hives and throwing them into a box with a queen, is not a functional colony, it's a box of parts that you hope will become a functional colony.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

The commercial beek I sometimes help inspects the nucs the day before pick-up. The nucs have been together as a small functioning hive for 2 -3 months at the time of pick-up, and are in the Jester EZ-Nuc boxes, which have a little flap on the entrance to fold closed for transport. The beek strongly emphasizes to all the customers that the bees need good ventilation during transport.

JMHO, but if you think a nuc is assembled on-the-spot at pick-up, you may want to consider being further along on the learning curve before selling nucs.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

rookie2531 said:


> When someone comes to buy nucs, what is the normal process? Does the seller have it put together waiting for the buyer? Do they go out in the yard together and pull frames from whatever hives to put the correct frames together? Are the boxes screwed shut for shipping or just screen stapled to it?


That would be a split in a nuc box. A nucleus colony would be a totally different animal. 

Are you trying to sell a nuc or you showed up and someone was pulling frames or what? If you're planning on selling a nuc to someone and you're just tossing some frames into the box and (adding a mated queen?), you should make sure the buyer is aware of how you're doing it for sure. And don't expect nuc prices. Don't know what the going rate for a split would be?


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I grafted and made splits Easter weekend. All the queens mated and have been laying since may 6th. I put medium honey frames on top the nucs for ample stores. I did add a frame of brood to the nucs when I was sure she made it back from mating. But one nuc already swarmed on me and left me with 6 queen cells and one frame of foundation wasn't even drawn. So wouldn't someone expect all drawn comb on all 5 frames. Or is it o.k. if all 5 frames are not drawn out? I am not trying to deceive, just want to make sure the customers have the right amount of each thing needed for a successful hive. Brood, pollen, stores. So, whatever the nuc has is what it is, and that's it? No helping it out with another frame brood?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

rookie2531 said:


> I grafted and made splits Easter weekend. All the queens mated and have been laying since may 6th. I put medium honey frames on top the nucs for ample stores. I did add a frame of brood to the nucs when I was sure she made it back from mating. But one nuc already swarmed on me and left me with 6 queen cells and one frame of foundation wasn't even drawn. So wouldn't someone expect all drawn comb on all 5 frames. Or is it o.k. if all 5 frames are not drawn out?


I'm not a nuc seller, but it seems *somewhat* common practice to have 4 frames packed with brood and bees and one frame of foundation in an effort to help curb swarming. Drawn comb is much more valuable and someone could argue that that's part of what you pay for with a nuc. In truth, when it's about $100 for a package and maybe $125-150 for a nuc... assuming five drawn frames (WITH BROOD AND STORES) valued at $5-10 each seems really low. And a mated queen that you can see the pattern from and know she's already accepted. What's that worth? Surprised nuc prices don't more accurately represent their value, honestly. One of the local package resellers here charges $20/drawn comb if I'm not mistaken. Not sure how many they sell at that price.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I think that you can negotiate anything with the buyer (not all drawn, but how about this price...etc), but just advertising a "nuc" would imply 5 drawn deep frames to me. I've had lots of buyers ask for whatever I have left when I tell them I'm out for the year. So as long as they know what they are getting and find the price acceptable, I think that your reputation will be preserved and everyone should benefit.


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## gezellig (Jun 11, 2014)

Common practice is 5 drawn frames with three being brood, one honey/pollen frame and an empty drawn frame, around middle tennessee area. That being said, I know of a guy that sells eight frame mediums as a Nuc, but he advertises it as so. Therefore his customers are aware of what they are getting. 

But on the same note, I've helped two different newbees install their nucs from two different suppliers this spring and their suppliers should be ashamed of what they sold them. 
I have discouraged other newbees from buying from these suppliers since. 

One got a frame of brood, a queen, and four frames of foundation. But did get a bunch of bees. 
The other guy two Nucs, one was ok. The other was queenless, with several queen cells. All three have managed to pull themselves out of the kinks, but the suppliers should be ashamed. 
So, just be truthful about what you're selling your customers to maintain a good reputation.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

shinbone;1270154. said:


> JMHO, but if you think a nuc is assembled on-the-spot at pick-up, you may want to consider being further along on the learning curve before selling nucs.


Its not that I think anything is normal. I have heard so many different stories, I just didn't know. So many have said to add a frame of brood to weak hives to help, so I figure what is wrong with that? If you can do it at home or your yard, what, it don't work for building up small weak nucs? Also, have read stories where someone bought nucs and the seller through in a full frame of capped with nurse bees and shook some extra to accommodate the lose of foragers. 

So many different stories I have heard and yet not one negative word about it until this post, but I will go through every frame with any I sell to the buyer and make sure they are happy and if something happens later, make it right!

I do appreciate all input. And am not planning on selling a lot this year, just a few to help with cost of my own hobby. You have to start selling the first one first and if you don't know how it works , you got to find out, right.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Here is a recent thread started by Jim Lyon about what makes a nuc. It's many pages long but well worth the read!

HTH

Rusty


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## b1kfd (Mar 6, 2014)

I'm a newbee, so take my post for what it's worth. The guy I bought nucs from last year (and will buy a couple more from this year) had me bring hives to his apiary. He took 5 frames from each of my hives and added 5 frames of bees, brood, and honey with a mated queen straight from his nuc box. I bought them from Broke T Apiaries in Philadelphia, Ms. I was pleased with the nucs and overall it was a pleasant experience


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## Scpossum (May 4, 2014)

Last year mine were three brood, one honey, and one empty. Good pattern and laying queen. I bought four- 2 in May and 2 in late June. All four overwintered well. Came in a cardboard nuc and I picked them up late because the seller wanted to make sure they were doing well. I put him down as a quality supplier.


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## beecole (Nov 25, 2011)

Where I'm located NUCs are considered "local" NUC's. WE take our 8 or 10 frame boxes to our local supplier. He grafts his local queens and places the cell into your box with the agreed upon number of frames of capped brood/ pollen and honey, The queen hatches, mates with local drones and starts laying in your Hive Box. After shes laying and larvae established. You come and pick up your Hive box. I use corrugated plastic strips and staples to hold the box and bottom board together for travel. I also use these strips to cover the hive entrance.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

When I started out I purchased a dozen Nucs from a well established seller of such.

When I went to pick them up they were taped shut in cardboard nuc boxes. The frames we ancient...some actually falling apart. All had 5 frames, none had 5 drawn frames. Most had some capped and open brood on 3 frames, some nectar on the fourth, the fifth was not drawn. None of the Queens were marked. Some weighed very little.

I was at a bee Conference in March. There was a talk by a fellow that has a nuc business. He pays folks for frames with bees and brood. He mixes those up willy nilly and plops in a purchased Queen or Queen cell. It is then sold as a nuc. He sells hundreds of them to hobbiests and to commercials East of him where weather is much colder and spring starts later. I was surprised by this as I also thought a nuc was a well established mini hive.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

WBVC- If you buy Overwintered nucs they are well established.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

WBVC said:


> I was surprised by this as I also thought a nuc was a well established mini hive.


A nuc, as displayed in this thread, is simply a title. Whatever the consumer is willing to pay for. There are lots of people driving across the country selling packages and *shock* nucs for $50+ more. Any guesses as to what kind of nuc these are? Maybe a package shook onto drawn comb?


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I know that now in hindsight I hope I don't need to purchase bees in the future...unless it is "that" special Queen.



MTN-Bees said:


> WBVC- If you buy Overwintered nucs they are well established.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If I was buying a nuc (instead of selling them) I would want -

A good laying queen
Strong population of healthy Bees
As much brood as possible
Mostly all drawn comb
I would also *like* to get a full compliment of foragers with the nuc.
*The earliest possible date* - this is worth 10 times more to me than if the bees had spent a lot of time together or had some kind of special queen. 2-3 weeks one way or the other is huge.

Other than that *I wouldn't care one bit if the bees had been together in that box for 2 weeks or 6 months* - as long as the queen was well accepted. Why would you? Either way is no guarantee of future performance. For that matter a nuc cobbled together on the spot with brood and bees and a caged queen *could* be fine if it was well made up - as long as the queen ended up being accepted - and the date was favorable.

Why would you care if all the brood was laid by the queen that is in the box? Barring it coming from a vicious AHB hive or being diseased - what tiny difference does that make?

Another hypothetical issue seems to be whether a nuc is "well established" or not. What does that really mean? Balanced demographics + laying queen + adequate comb - or something like that I guess. A swarm doesn't have that - but it probably does after about 6 weeks if all goes well. How about a just made up split? It's going to depend on how it's made up - the beekeeper in other words. 

Instead of calling them Nucs - which seems to carry some baggage - maybe we should start calling them something like "Spring Splits" or "Starter Hives".

But in any event - to me - the contents of the box, and the date of delivery weigh 10 times more than how they got put together in there. 

This is just my opinion and I would be interested in hearing what more seasoned hands think about it.


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## Ryan Williamson (Feb 28, 2012)

I sell around 75 nucs a year and inspect every one with the customers while we move the frames into their equipment. They pay after looking at their bees and have the option of refusal although no one has ever refused their nuc. The inspection does take time but every customer sees their queen and gets a chance to ask questions and learn the very basics of spotting eggs, larva, capped brood, drone brood, pollen, honey etc. I can't imagine selling a nuc without 98% drawn comb that is actively being used with brood or honey stores. What I have found is that I am always short on equipment so I stage the nucs for a week or two in waxed cardboard brushy mountain nuc boxes. They can fit 6 frames really tight so I slip in an undrawn frame. If the bees don't draw out the empty frame in a few days then the nuc is not ready to sell...the sixth frame also really helps keep down swarming and the bees from making fat comb that won't fit in my customers boxes. I only do evening pickups so after the bees are transferred to the customer's equipment they have the option to watch me work other hives while their evening foragers return home thus guaranteeing that they get all of the bees. 

Here is the info I tell my customers ahead of time: 

Whats in the nuc:
- Marked queen, raised from hives that survived this winter in my bee yards. These queens will be granddaughters of hygienic breeder queens.

- Bees from hives that over-wintered in my bee yards. 

- 5 deep frames of drawn comb. No frame exchange. 
- 3 or more frames of brood 
- 1 frame of honey 
- 1 frame of pollen/mix

Nuc pickups are generally in the evening about an hour before dusk.

What to bring:
YOUR BEE SUIT!

We will transfer the bees into your equipment here. The benefit is a longer inspection where we will identify brood, honey, pollen, find the queen and answer any questions you have. Plus when you get home you will not have to bother the bees and as you can just set them in their new spot, open the entrance and let them be. 

Please bring : 
1. Bottom board (screened preferably for ventilation)
2. Entrance reducer or window screen if you have a solid bottom board, 
3.Deep Hive body with all the frames except 5 to make room for the nuc
4. Inner cover and a lid. 
5. A ratchet strap to hold everything together is really good but we can also use duct tape on the spot here as well. 



David LaFerney said:


> If I was buying a nuc (instead of selling them) I would want -
> 
> A good laying queen
> Strong population of healthy Bees
> ...


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

gezellig said:


> But on the same note, I've helped two different newbees install their nucs from two different suppliers this spring and their suppliers should be ashamed of what they sold them.
> I have discouraged other newbees from buying from these suppliers since.


Full disclosure to customers is best, & don't sell something you wouldn't want to buy, or before it's time.:lookout:


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

"Nuc" is short for "nucleus hive." It is well established among reputable sellers that a nucleus hive consists of (from Ryan Williamson's post):

"_- Bees from hives that over-wintered in my bee yards. 

- 5 deep frames of drawn comb. No frame exchange. 
- 3 or more frames of brood 
- 1 frame of honey 
- 1 frame of pollen/mix_"

Anything else is not a nucleus hive. Whether such frames, bees, and queen are swapped from their original box into the customer's box at time of pick-up is immaterial. Dishonest people are free to assign their own personal definition to the word "nuc," but that won't change the standard recognized definition among honest beekeepers.

_However,_ a beekeeper can honestly sell whatever they want with appropriate full disclosure. It is perfectly honest to sell 4 undrawn frames with a shook swarm and newly introduced queen, as long as such is disclosed. Nothing wrong with that. What would be dishonest is calling such an arrangement a "nuc."

JMHO


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

shinbone said:


> - Bees from hives that over-wintered in my bee yards.
> - 5 deep frames of drawn comb. No frame exchange.
> - 3 or more frames of brood
> - 1 frame of honey
> ...


I will certainly agree that would be a good nuc. But it's kind of misleading to make absolute statements about what is or isn't. Different products are sold as nucs - some good, some quite poor. A lot of nucs are made up from hives that have recently been in California - so those are "not a nucleus hive?" How about if the bees overwintered in my yard but the queens came from Georgia around the first of April? No matter what they look like that's "not a nucleus hive?" If it is, then what difference did it make for the bees to overwinter in my yard? By the first of June those bees will all be gone. What is the thing with bees overwintering in my yard anyway? If they were a package from Georgia last spring, but they overwintered in my yard and adhered to all of those listed guidelines then I guess they would be a nucleus hive, but how wouldn't they still be package bees with a package queen?

You probably think I'm taking this position because I sell some kind of craptastic nuc shaped object - but what I sell is 8 frame mediums with more or less:

5 or more frames of brood.
2015 Italian Queen from Georgia or locally raised 2015 VSH queens - Buyers choice.
8 fully drawn frames - last year I included the standard 1/2 or one foundation frame in some, but not this year as that was the only vague grumble I heard from anyone.
Little if any empty comb.
Enough bees for twice as many boxes.
Advice to give them more room immediately - if not sooner.
All of the foragers - I close them in at dark or dawn.
Oh yeah - bees that overwintered in my yard - for what it's worth.

And this - If you get them home and you aren't happy, bring them back for a full refund.

But that's just what* I* do. 

If someone else wants to sell 2-3 frames of brood and a frame of honey with a caged queen and someone wants to buy it - As long as there isn't fraud or coercion then that's free enterprise as far as I'm concerned. Not only that, but I bet there is a decent market for such a device as long as the price is right. For that matter If you got it on April 1 or thereabouts it could be a real nice hive by now - May 19 - I know because I have some just like that which now have 24 frames of drawn comb full of bees, brood and honey. Where as if you get one of those idealized nucs with all the right stuff, but you get it at the middle of May - what will that look be at the end of the season?

Maybe there should be a delivery date factor - if they aren't ready by X day then it "is not a nucleus hive."

Or maybe we should just leave it up to the market to decide what is and isn't a salable product - whatever you want to call it.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

"_But it's kind of misleading to make absolute statements about what is or isn't._"

Actually, it is not. Ryan Williamson's language is the generally accepted definition of a "nuc," except for the "in my bee yard" part, but that is just being pedantic. There are many examples found on Beesource and throughout the beekeeping industry reciting similar language as the definition of a "nuc." The definition is not new and it is not rocket science.

A person can sell a double deep full of brood with two supers of honey and 100,000 bees and call it a "nuc," but that doesn't change the accepted definition of a "nuc." A person can hold up a box of dead ****roaches and call it a "nuc", and truly believe in his mind it is a "nuc," but that still doesn't change the accepted definition of a "nuc." 

A person who thinks that they personally and single-handedly can change the definition of a specific word is living in fantasy land. He may be perfectly happy living in that fantasy land, and he may truly believe in his own mind that he did change the definition, but it is fantasy land nonetheless.

What you sell sounds great. I would happily buy one if the price was fair. I have no idea if what you sell is the equivalent of a nuc, though.

JMHO


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

shinbone said:


> Actually, it is not. Ryan Williamson's language is the generally accepted definition of a "nuc," ...


I don't think that the definition is as accepted and you state. I only sell "overwintered nucs". But "MY" definition of a nuc (without other adjectives like 4 frame, medium, overwintered, etc.) is a 5 frame hive with an accepted queen and all other parts (honey, brood, pollen, bees) that are found in a full sized hive. I have never bought a nuc, but if someone put a "nuc" together with frames from various hives, added a queen and waited for her to be accepted and her first brood has hatched, I would be perfectly happy with that. And I'll bet that more "nuc's" are sold like that than one where all of the bees are related.

Even some of my over wintered nucs have some things added. Like honey or pollen. They come out of winter in all sort of shapes. Stronger, weaker, honey (rare), little honey, etc. To sell any quantity for a set price you need to do some equalization.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Obviously, language is not a mathematically precise form of communication. No matter what is defined or how it is defined, there is going to be inherent ambiguity because that is the nature of language.

A small amount of deviation from the generally accepted definition is fine and most people will accept and adapt. Too much deviation (without prior disclosure) and people will protest and/or feel short changed by the seller. Where an individual seller wants to draw the line is clearly up to him. 

None of this changes what the generally accepted definition of a nuc is, though. I would be especially suspicious of sellers who deviate from the accepted definition by providing less, and guess what! their "nucs" just happen to fit their own made-up definition of "nucs". What a lucky coincidence!


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Would it be acceptable to call them "Small but complete honey bee colonies which can be used to start a new full sized colony?" 

Or would that be too confusing?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> Would it be acceptable to call them "Small but complete honey bee colonies which can be used to start a new full sized colony?"
> 
> Or would that be too confusing?


lol!


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> Full disclosure to customers is best, & don't sell something you wouldn't want to buy, or before it's time.:lookout:


I agree. I also think a "nuc" is whatever you say you put in it. 

in year one, I prepaid for 2 nucs for April delivery. Delivery kept being pushed back until I despaired of ever getting them & bought a nuc from a closer guy off Craigslist ( in mid June). On July 10, I received my prepaid nucs. prepaids were light, one became queenless in about 2 weeks. We got by. Craigslist bees were very full, very strong. Year 2 Craigslist bees turned out to be vigorous hive robbers, wiped out 2 or 3 other hives before I moved them far away. it was either that or kill them, & they were about the only bees I had left.
I make my own nucs now, on medium frames that I could not find before. Will I sell them? ... maybe next year. The crazy bees ... they are alive & well, but not in my "home" yard. Will I sell them? probably not. I don't want that to be my reputation. Good Luck with your bees. CE


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

tech.35058 said:


> turned out to be vigorous hive robbers


Is there any other kind?


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

a nuc is 3-6 frames of worker bees, a queen, brood in all stages, and honey stores.


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## Ryan Williamson (Feb 28, 2012)

To me its really imoprtant that a customer gets to see what they are buying when they pick the bees up. Thats why we do a frame by frame transfer to their equipment. 

We have a nearby store who sells imported nucs without customers being able to see what they are buying until they get home with the bees and its too late. I have heard frim my customers crazy taiks of everything including: Piles of visible mites on bees, small hive beetles piling out when they open the hive, three of the five frames as foundtion, queenless with no young brood, half a frame of brood in the entire colony, only capped brood and a caged queen, and completely totally dead hives! It blows me away that they can sell them for $185! I am sure some must be good but the stories are too common.


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