# Sticky  ATTN: New beekeepers with screened bottom boards



## JConnolly

I use SBBs and I'll echo Brad.

Keep it closed. Keep it dark. Keep the entrance reducer on. Keep it fed.


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## stan.vick

JConnolly said:


> I use SBBs and I'll echo Brad.
> 
> Keep it closed. Keep it dark. Keep the entrance reducer on. Keep it fed.


Same here.


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## thesecurityeagle

And a frame of eggs/larvae are not a bad thing and if you don't have that some drawn empty comb sure does help.


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## Vance G

SBB's are a disaster waiting to happen. They are responsible for most of the new colonies that fail to thrive.


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## missybee

We must have lucked out We installed three packages on screened bottom boards all did well. We did have drawn comb for them.

We will modify for any future ones


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## Mike Gillmore

Brad Bee said:


> If you feel like you must use a screened bottom board, KEEP IT CLOSED UP AT LEAST UNTIL THE HIVE IS RAISING BROOD.


Very good advice.

There must be a reason you feel so strongly about this.


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## Brad Bee

Mike Gillmore said:


> Very good advice.
> 
> There must be a reason you feel so strongly about this.


Not really, I just hate to see people spend good money on bees only for them to fly off into the trees. I don't know how many times I've read about this problem over the past several years but it happens every year, multiple times. I've never had a screened bottom board and don't plan on starting. I don't see how they can possibly accomplish anything significant.


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## Brad Bee

Vance G said:


> SBB's are a disaster waiting to happen. They are responsible for most of the new colonies that fail to thrive.


I agree with the first part of that statement Vance but don't know enough stats to know if I agree with the second part. I just don't see what the draw to them is.

I always get a chuckle out of people up north posting that they use them because of the heat in the summer. LOL I reckon it doesn't get hot enough here in the deep south for me to need them.


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## enjambres

And I get a shiver when I hear of people - and there are lots of them even up here in northern NY - who run with their SBB open all winter long in the name of winter ventilation. It must not be a guaranteed failure, but it surely must not make life any easier for their poor bees.

Me, I install my bees over SBB from the git go, but then I have solid boards underneath each colony as well. (And the whole thing is closed up _and weatherstripped_ before winter.) 

I really find SBB useful for collecting info from the hive trash, but otherwise I wouldn't use them since the few mites that fall off and out of the hive would make no difference in the overall mite population level. Mites must have much clumsier, or stupider, than they are now when the idea that SBBs were effective at controlling mite build-up was first promoted.

Enj.


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## rolftonbees

I luckily did this right and have not lost a package. My bee school taught and my begginer reading verified that scent is very important to the colony especially a package.

they are a bunch of bees from multiple hives and have a new queen in with them, the closed bottom will help unify the odor around the new queen, and the scent of brood will help them work as a colony even more.

I keep my screens closed until they beard then I open them about an inch and open more as needed reversing this as fall approaches. I usually dont open more than a few inches total giving them more landing board.


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## philip.devos

I started with screened bottom boards, but have been keeping the bottom closed underneath in recent years. If I started over I would go with solid boards. Sufficient ventilation can be achieved with bottom AND top entrances. 

I have one very strong colony which has had the bottom entrance screened closed so that bees must enter and exit from the top. This has been the configuration for the past 2 years.


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## rookie2531

I for one, like the benefits of the screened ipm board.

Now i see sbb and never know if someone is say screened bottom board or solod bottom board.

So i do not use the abbreviaton sbb. Its confusing to me. But when i refer to my screened bottom board, i do not use those words either, because to me it refers a screen with no option to close. So i use the term "ipm" and then everyone knows what im talking about.
Now with the terms out of the way, i do like my ipm board. And when its 105° f outside. They are outside the hive bearding and to me thats a waste of them. Like all the workers on cig. Break. Nothing getting done, or at least not as much that could be. All i have to do is crack it an inch and within a few monutes, they all go back to work.

Another thing, i dont have to open the flood gates for wax moth and shb for ventilation either. Open the air, yet easy guarded entrance still.


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## aunt betty

Come and get you some free SBB's. I've taken them out of my apiary due to the reasons in this thread. 
Going thru the trouble of getting way up in a tree to saw off the limb that a swarm is on only to have it abscond once placed into a hive with an SBB is devastating. (even when given a frame of brood from another colony)
Save yourself the trouble and avoid them. (SBB's)


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## Rader Sidetrack

rookie2531 said:


> Now with the terms out of the way, i do like my ipm board. And when its 105° f outside. They are outside the hive bearding and to me thats a waste of them. Like all the workers on cig. Break. Nothing getting done, or at least not as much that could be. All i have to do is crack it an inch and within a few minutes, [HIGHLIGHT]they all go back to work.[/HIGHLIGHT]


Here is my opinion: The reason that "they go back to work" is that by opening a big hole in the bottom of the hive, you have disturbed the bees' evaporative cooling balance, and now a bunch more of those bearding bees are called to go retrieve/haul in more water into the hive, and (likely) also go to work to block/reverse that extra airflow through the hive!!!

Bees want their brood area at 93-94 degrees F, When the ambient air temperature [outside] the hive is 105 degrees, it doesn't matter how much ambient air [at 105 degrees] is flowing through the hive, the temperature can _never_ be lower than 105 without evaporative cooling. It just doesn't work that way inside a hive, or anywhere else.

The key to a _swamp cooler_ operation is _controlled_ ventilation, enough to move the humid air out so it can be replaced with dryer air, but not so much outside air that the cooling effect is overwhelmed. Bees are masters at controlling airflow in/out of their hive - that what they _do_. Its somewhat presumptuous on your part to think that you can do a better job of that, particularly since you clearly aren't willing to commit to being the HVAC 'controller' on a full-time basis.


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## philip.devos

I don't think I ever had bees abscond because I had a screened bottom board. I do tend to keep the removable solid bottom in place just below the screen, and in recent years do not remove it in the summer.


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## Brad Bee

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Here is my opinion: The reason that "they go back to work" is that by opening a big hole in the bottom of the hive, you have disturbed the bees' evaporative cooling balance, and now a bunch more of those bearding bees are called to go retrieve/haul in more water into the hive, and (likely) also go to work to block/reverse that extra airflow through the hive!!!
> 
> Bees want their brood area at 93-94 degrees F, When the ambient air temperature [outside] the hive is 105 degrees, it doesn't matter how much ambient air [at 105 degrees] is flowing through the hive, the temperature can _never_ be lower than 105 without evaporative cooling. It just doesn't work that way inside a hive, or anywhere else.
> 
> The key to a _swamp cooler_ operation is _controlled_ ventilation, enough to move the humid air out so it can be replaced with dryer air, but not so much outside air that the cooling effect is overwhelmed. Bees are masters at controlling airflow in/out of their hive - that what they _do_. Its somewhat presumptuous on your part to think that you can do a better job of that, particularly since you clearly aren't willing to commit to being the HVAC 'controller' on a full-time basis.


Exactly. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.

At any rate, I didn't start this thread to discuss the pros and cons of screened bottom boards. I knew it would turn in to that, but I do intend to bump it up, if I can remember, so new beeks won't lose their bees.


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## rookie2531

No full time HVAC here, definitely not even close, but I do crack them to stop the bearding about a week or two during summer. I think it helps, even if it causes more to get water, which i dont think it hurts to the point of every one of those bees that were bearding, to go on full water alert. 
My entrances stay tight all year. I am not one to pull out my reducers. Though my reducers aren't store bought, but just scraps of wood and the doorways are 3/4" tall, but never more than 3" wide. So, I don't see how if my entrances are small and open screen a little is so far off from someone who has no reducers on at all (open full tilt) and solid bottoms. 

But, i do agree with Brad, if you got a new package and an ipm board also, close them up.

With that said, I do think that sometimes we do and are able to help them out sometimes, even if, that's what they do.


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## billdean

enjambres said:


> And I get a shiver when I hear of people - and there are lots of them even up here in northern NY - who run with their SBB open all winter long in the name of winter ventilation. It must not be a guaranteed failure, but it surely must not make life any easier for their poor bees.
> 
> *Me, I install my bees over SBB from the git go, but then I have solid boards underneath each colony as well.* (And the whole thing is closed up _and weatherstripped_ before winter.)
> 
> I really find SBB useful for collecting info from the hive trash, but otherwise I wouldn't use them since the few mites that fall off and out of the hive would make no difference in the overall mite population level. Mites must have much clumsier, or stupider, than they are now when the idea that SBBs were effective at controlling mite build-up was first promoted.
> 
> Enj.


I do the same but for a different reason. I open them up only when I OAV my hives. I put my vaporizer under the screen. This gives me added distance from the bottom of the frames. It works out well. Plus the added info from the trash.


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## nediver

enjambres said:


> And I get a shiver when I hear of people - and there are lots of them even up here in northern NY - who run with their SBB open all winter long in the name of winter ventilation. It must not be a guaranteed failure, but it surely must not make life any easier for their poor bees.
> 
> Me, I install my bees over SBB from the git go, but then I have solid boards underneath each colony as well. (And the whole thing is closed up _and weatherstripped_ before winter.)
> 
> I really find SBB useful for collecting info from the hive trash, but otherwise I wouldn't use them since the few mites that fall off and out of the hive would make no difference in the overall mite population level. Mites must have much clumsier, or stupider, than they are now when the idea that SBBs were effective at controlling mite build-up was first promoted.
> 
> Enj.



I am an offender here. I have left them wide open all winter more than once, mostly because winter creeps up on me. I have grown to hate the screened boards for all the reasons discussed on this site. Perhaps I missed it, but I wish I noticed some of those comments when I got into bee keeping 5 or so years ago. It seemed all the rage.


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## appalachianoutdoors

I grew to dislike screened bottoms after pulling out my ipm board on several occasions and finding a bunch of shb larvae there that the bees couldn't get to to clean out. At least with a true solid bottom, the bees can haul out whatever they do not want in the hive.


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## stan.vick

This is a subject that has strong opinions on both sides, I have 1/3 to 1/2 of my bottoms screened on each of all my hives, once I learned to close them off with landscape cloth when first installing the bees and removing it once brood is present I have had none abscond. It may not help, but my colonies are doing so well that I don't plan to change at this point, I may out of curiosity make a half dozen or so with solid bottoms for a mini-study. I can report that I have no bearding during our hot summers.
If I lived in a more northern climate I don't think I would use the screens.


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## AmericasBeekeeper

I am not sure why you think that is the cause Brad as you have never had a screened bottom board. We use them in every research hive and in the teaching hives. All are started from packages on screened bottom boards. I cannot remember a hive absconding in ten years. There is probably something else in the package installation. If it is done like a swarm and done correctly they will remain. Then again people lose swarms screened or solid.
The bees actually resist mites and viruses better at 96.8 degrees. They can and do maintain that throughout the year with a screened bottom board. At least in Florida heat rises. It is called convection. That is why hot air balloons fill the sky with color floating through the air. The heated air does not fall out. Bees use radiant heat which is quite tolerant of their environment. That is why they can exist on exposed locations.


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## AmericasBeekeeper

Trash, Varroa mites and small hive beetle larva cannot drop to the ground with a sticky/IPM board or a solid hive stand negating any positive effect.


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## Scottsbee

While bees groom the mites fall through screen and out of hive. With solid bottom won't the mites just crawl back up for more havoc? 
As a new beek, that's how they convinced me.


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## Eyeman

> SBB's are a disaster waiting to happen. They are responsible for most of the new colonies that fail to thrive


Your just giving the novice beekeeper another excuse for why their bees died.
Without SBB even fewer folk will bother to monitor for varroa.
The SBB give a reliable estimate of colony mite levels during late fall and winter when brood levels are low. Without a SBB I wouldn't be able to monitor the effectiveness of my winter oxalic acid vaporization.


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## scorpionmain

Screened Bottom Boards suck for many reasons.
I am glad to see that this fad is on it's way out.


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## Rader Sidetrack

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> At least in Florida heat rises. It is called convection. That is why hot air balloons fill the sky with color floating through the air. The heated air does not fall out. Bees use radiant heat which is quite tolerant of their environment. That is why they can exist on exposed locations.


Its not that 'heat' *rises* - 'heat' radiates in all directions. "Hot air" rises, even in Florida! Consider heat from the sun, for example. Daylight hours on Earth would be a _real trip_ if the heat from the sun did not radiate in _all_ directions.

For a wholly terrestrial example, consider a fire built on a wooden deck. If heat were only to rise, the wood deck would not burn. However, heat from the fire radiates equally in all directions and the wood deck is most certainly at risk of burning.


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## Artur_M

scorpionmain said:


> Screened Bottom Boards suck for many reasons.


I would like to hear some of the reasons.

Here are the reasons you SHOULD use screened bottom board:
1. You'll see what's going on in your hive without opening it and disturbing your bees.
2. Extra vent during summer time - makes sense to me.
3. Mite dropping through
4. Dirt and feces dropping through 
5. Can see if there is a wax moth and it's approximate location.
6. Dead SHB drops through

The easiest way to keep your hive clean.
Works as bird cage bottom board.

Winter time I just put duct tape around to keep wind and cold not getting into the hive.

https://www.mannlakeltd.com/10-frame-varroa-screen-board - this is BAD bottom board.
https://www.mannlakeltd.com/10-frame-varroa-screened-with-drawer - this is OK bottom board.
http://www.miller-mfg.com/product/SCREENBOARD.html - the best bottom board.


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## scorpionmain

Artur_M said:


> I would like to hear some of the reasons.
> 
> Here are the reasons you SHOULD use screened bottom board:
> 1. You'll see what's going on in your hive without opening it and disturbing your bees.
> 2. Extra vent during summer time - makes sense to me.
> 3. Mite dropping through
> 4. Dirt and feces dropping through
> 5. Can see if there is a wax moth and it's approximate location.
> 6. Dead SHB drops through
> 
> The easiest way to keep your hive clean.
> Works as bird cage bottom board.


Let's count the ways.
You need to go into your hive to know whats going on in there. Don't worry about disturbing them.
Big gape hole doesn't help ventilate. Honeybee are so successful in so many different climates because they have the ability to maintain the micro-climate within the hive.
They fan and evaporate water, push air through the hive, you mess this up with a big ol' hole.
The mites that drop are dead anyways. They get hauled out with the trash by the house bees.
Feces? Bees don't use the bathroom in their hive.
When I tried Screened BB's, I saw wax moths lay on the screen.
I've had mass of bees get stuck under the hive, confused about the entrance.
Let's ants in. Less easily defended.
More expensive.
Less sturdy.
Queens don't like to lay near light.
Etc. etc...


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## igottagetalife

Hey Brad

Thanks for the advice. My experience differs somewhat but then I'm in Virginia and started with nucs (screened bottom boards there too), packages and swarms all with open screened bottom boards. I only close them during the winter. Please share what you think happens I and I'm sure others would appreciate it.
John


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## IsedHooah

Only ever used screened bottom boards. Never had any of the issues that others are bringing up (including absconds from not closing them up with new packages, although I will say that this is good advice and certainly can't hurt). I believe, as with anything, proper use and proper application play a large role in the success of any "tool" that we choose to implement. To each their own, I will continue using my screened bottom boards because my experiences have been positive with them.


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## Cloverdale

IsedHooah said:


> Only ever used screened bottom boards. Never had any of the issues that others are bringing up (including absconds from not closing them up with new packages, although I will say that this is good advice and certainly can't hurt). I believe, as with anything, proper use and proper application play a large role in the success of any "tool" that we choose to implement. To each their own, I will continue using my screened bottom boards because my experiences have been positive with them.


I too, have had no problem at all with them...I mostly keep them closed...it seems that it gives just enough ventilation. Out of 8 hives overwintering, 5 have screened bb. All are doing well.


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## Stephenpbird

I have both.
Every year when I go to clean the hive floors in spring I remember why I love SBBs. They are clean dry and are never blocked with dead bees, now the solid floors they literally stink with wet dead bees and debris.
It took me a long time to accept, that where I live there is no ill effect in winter when using SBB. The Germans say "Cold feet and a warm head never hurt anyone"!


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## rolftonbees

how about ScBB and SoBB.


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## Hogback Honey

Vance G said:


> SBB's are a disaster waiting to happen. They are responsible for most of the new colonies that fail to thrive.


I think it's more how the SBB's are used. I've SBB's on my 4 hives, they are all thriving, course I'm only a 3rd year. I started out with 2 hives in 2014, split those two last year, all 4 are doing great, all have SBB on them. I've never taken out the bottom, I just use it to monitor mite drop, and it gives me an indication of what is going on inside the hive by monitoring what is on the board.


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## Michael Bush

>"Cold feet and a warm head never hurt anyone"!

My dad always said, if your feet are cold you should put on a hat...


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## shinbone

Just to throw my minimal two cents into this discussion:

I have run screened bottom boards ("SBB") from day 1. I have never had a package, swarm, split, or any other type of hive abscond. Thus, I can say that SBB's have never caused any of my bees to abscond.

I like SBB's for the diagnostic benefit of looking at what and where detritus falls onto the board. This includes dropped wax flakes, dropped pollen pellets, dead mites, and wax moth poop. It is a helpful and easy-to-use tool, especially when looking at mite fall after an OAV or Apiguard application.

When I first started with bees, I used only a bottom entrance. I would pull out the SBB a few inches on especially hot days. But, now, I run a bottom and top entrance year-round. This is a huge benefit to the hive because it allows the bees (rather than an ignorant human) to easily adjust ventilation to however they want it through the year. Accordingly, I no longer use a SBB to adjust hive ventilation. In other words, my SBB are fully inserted year-round.

I also run all mediums and an open brood nest. The bees almost always run the brood chamber into the 3rd medium. A prolific queen in a good year will lay into the 4th medium. But, the bees almost never use the bottom medium box. 

I am starting to wonder if not using the first box is due to the SBB being too drafty, even when it is closed. This makes me want to switch to a solid bottom board configuration, but I don't want to lose the diagnostic advantage of the SBB. Hmmmm . . . .

Also, don't forget that the effects of a SBB are very dependant on what your local climate is.

JMHO


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## R_V

what about FREEMAN BEETLE TRAP  style SBB? I have a couple of these I plan to use. With the tray in it seems fairly well closed off.


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## bucksbees

R_V said:


> what about FREEMAN BEETLE TRAP  style SBB? I have a couple of these I plan to use. With the tray in it seems fairly well closed off.


I use the same concepts. Rusty has one on his website that works great.


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## DerTiefster

About the third time I heard screened bottom boards described, I thought to myself, "Why not put a tray of oil (or soapy water) under that to kill anything the bees push out through the screen?" I later read of the Freeman Beetle Trap. I've only heard good things about it, and I use several. Seems to have all of the screened bottom board pluses and it seals up well at will to limit most other bad effects mentioned. The tray can be as opaque as you want, to keep the hive dark (black spray paint).

I see someone else has pointed to this example, also. Good. I still think that trap design is sound. I like the polyethylene (I think) trays used because they can seal pretty well against the base of the hive and address some of the over-ventilation issues others complain about.

Michael


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## enjambres

@Shinbone,

Stick a solid board under your SBB and have the best of both worlds. I, like you, wouldn't like to give up the info gained from studying my stickies.

You might also consider putting a 2" high shim under your lowest box. I do that and find it gets my queens laying in my lowest box, and seasonal honey and pollen storage placed there, too. I did it to get the benefits of a slatted board, without the cost and the slats which I felt would interfere with the unimpeded free-fall of hive debris I wanted to study on the board. Most of my colonies make no effort to draw comb down into the 2" void into the shim; one or two will occasionalyl build a small nubbin, but rarely with any brood or stores. I just have to peek in through entrance on those colonies to make sure I don't stick my Varrox wand into it.

Enj.


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## BadBeeKeeper

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Its not that 'heat' *rises* - 'heat' radiates in all directions. "Hot air" rises, even in Florida! Consider heat from the sun, for example. Daylight hours on Earth would be a _real trip_ if the heat from the sun did not radiate in _all_ directions.
> 
> For a wholly terrestrial example, consider a fire built on a wooden deck. If heat were only to rise, the wood deck would not burn. However, heat from the fire radiates equally in all directions and the wood deck is most certainly at risk of burning.


Come on Rader, ya gotta ease up on the _logic_ and _reason_. Twice in one thread? You're gonna make some heads explode.



shinbone said:


> Just to throw my minimal two cents into this discussion:
> 
> I have run screened bottom boards ("SBB") from day 1. I have never had a package, swarm, split, or any other type of hive abscond. Thus, I can say that SBB's have never caused any of my bees to abscond.
> 
> I like SBB's for the diagnostic benefit of looking at what and where detritus falls onto the board. This includes dropped wax flakes, dropped pollen pellets, dead mites, and wax moth poop. It is a helpful and easy-to-use tool, especially when looking at mite fall after an OAV or Apiguard application.
> 
> When I first started with bees, I used only a bottom entrance. I would pull out the SBB a few inches on especially hot days. But, now, I run a bottom and top entrance year-round. This is a huge benefit to the hive because it allows the bees (rather than an ignorant human) to easily adjust ventilation to however they want it through the year. Accordingly, I no longer use a SBB to adjust hive ventilation. In other words, my SBB are fully inserted year-round.
> 
> I also run all mediums and an open brood nest. The bees almost always run the brood chamber into the 3rd medium. A prolific queen in a good year will lay into the 4th medium. But, the bees almost never use the bottom medium box.
> 
> I am starting to wonder if not using the first box is due to the SBB being too drafty, even when it is closed. This makes me want to switch to a solid bottom board configuration, but I don't want to lose the diagnostic advantage of the SBB. Hmmmm . . . .
> 
> Also, don't forget that the effects of a SBB are very dependant on what your local climate is.


I started with screened bottoms too, but not because I believed it to be a magic mite mitigator, just as a monitoring tool. If some mites drop through and die, well, a dead mite sooner is worth a thousand dead mites later.

I generally always left the bottoms open, and never had any issues with the queen not laying in the bottom box. In fact, that is where I usually find the drone brood- built onto the bottom bars of the frames in the bottom box. Last year I ran a quad-deep for a little while, because I lost a queen in my original line and wanted to make sure I got another...I'm maintaining two hives with an original line started in 2011...so I combined the two, and when I separated them again, all four deeps were packed solid with brood.

But, I do go to the trouble of swapping the screens for solids at the end of the Summer- Winters here can be pretty tough sometimes. I've seen the temps go down to -25 and stay there for weeks, and I'm in a valley where the hills funnel the wind up to 60-80mph, sometimes higher. Those conditions can kill bees real quick if you're a bad beekeeper...I've got that lesson twice now. (And, hopefully, it will stick this time...or I'll have to change my nick to BadBeeKiller.)


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## MissHoney

I don't even own a solid bottom board. And I rarely use the IPM board (preferring to actually disturb the hive and look at the bees, so the screened bottom is always open, even in winter. Haven't used an entrance reducer either. 

Haven't had any issues with absconding, from either packages or nuc installations. Just my 2 cents. Just because you don't agree with someone's keep methods doesn't mean you need to discourage others from the practice based only on your anecdotal opinion.


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## beemandan

MissHoney said:


> Just because you don't agree with someone's keep methods doesn't mean you need to discourage others from the practice based only on your anecdotal opinion.


If you have had bad experiences with a product....and have heard or read multiple reports of others having the same bad experience....you should just keep your mouth (keyboard) shut. Is that what you just said?


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## MissHoney

beemandan said:


> If you have had bad experiences with a product....and have heard or read multiple reports of others having the same bad experience....you should just keep your mouth (keyboard) shut. Is that what you just said?


Nope, not at all. Try again.


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## Rader Sidetrack

There are quite a few threads on Beesource, started by new beekeepers, whose new hives have open screened bottoms, and have experienced a new package abscond. Here are a couple ...

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?326972-NewBee-from-South-Carolina
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?310059-New-Package-Absconded

I could link more, but those are typical. Of course, that is not _scientific proof_, but I suspect that kind of thing is what prompted the creation of this thread. 

Certainly there are new packages that _don't_ abscond with open screened bottoms, but if one does have a screened bottom - closing off the open screen _*at least*_ until the hive has brood - seems like a *smart* move. What have you got to lose by closing off the screen?


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## Slow Drone

The whole point of this thread is to let newbees know to close up their screened bottoms when installing a new package to help avoid the problem of not doing so. Leaving the screened bottom boards open when installing packages is never a good idea. I believe Brad Bee started this thread to give good solid advice to help newbees prevent losing their bees right out of the gate. I mentor a good number of people and advise everyone to close off their screened bottom boards when installing packages. I have both screened bottom boards and solid bottom boards have had them for a good number of years. It's all a matter of preference but few people use screened bottom boards properly.


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## MissHoney

See, there's a difference in saying " hey, if you are going to use screened bottom boards with new installs, at least close the bottom with the IPM boarf and here is why...." versus how this thread was presented initially ("don't use screened bb or you will always lose your bees!!!!!").


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## Rcurtis31

I use screened with a corrugated plastic tray that completely closes off the bottom of the hive. Also use a slatted rack. I keep a little lime on the tray to kill the beetles and dump it off and grease it up when I want to monitor for mites. Really never leave the bottom open.


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## Slow Drone

MissHoney said:


> See, there's a difference in saying " hey, if you are going to use screened bottom boards with new installs, at least close the bottom with the IPM boarf and here is why...." versus how this thread was presented initially ("don't use screened bb or you will always lose your bees!!!!!").


It is possible they may not abscond if the screen is left open but it's highly likely they'll abscond. When screened bottom boards first became popular one person after another complained about bees absconding the common denominator was the screen was left open. Obviously you didn't comprehend the point of this thread. You may consider rereading Brad Bee's original post and maybe you'll understand his well meaning intent.


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## beeman2009

I can tell you from experience that Bradbee gave good solid advice! I wish someone had told me to close up the bottom boards 10 years ago when I started. Maybe I would still have the 10 packages that absconded 2 days after installation. Or not? Who knows? :banana:


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## Brad Bee

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I could link more, but those are typical. Of course, that is not _scientific proof_, but I suspect that kind of thing is what prompted the creation of this thread.


And you'd be exactly correct. I didn't post this to start a debate about screened or solid bottom boards. I hoped it wouldn't turn into one, but wishing on a shooting star rarely produces the desired effect. People can build their use up or tear their use down and I don't care either way, I'm just trying to save some poor new beekeeper the misery of going out to check on their brand new beehive and finding an empty box. 

I would like to hear more about slatted racks like enjambres has mentioned. I tried searching for some information on them, but have found very little. Maybe I can get Enj. to start a new thread about them. Seems like maybe I remember Fusion Power using them too??


----------



## AR Beekeeper

My memory is not perfect, but last year members of one of the bee associations to which I belong installed around 125 packages last spring. About 17 packages absconded, and they were about evenly divided between hives with solid bottom boards and those with screened. 

I doubt the open screen bottoms are the only cause of packages absconding, but given my choice I would install a package with the screened bottom closed. Small colonies do better in small hives with small entrances, unless the outside temperature is very warm. Early spring temperature is usually cool enough to require the beekeeper to "baby" a 2 or 3 pound package.

With the problem wide spread as it appears to be, when installing packages I would take the precaution of placing a queen excluder under the brood chamber to prevent the queen from having free passage out of the hive. I would keep the excluder on the hive until the queen has several frames of unsealed brood. If brood from other colonies is to be had, I would add a frame of unsealed larvae when installing and 10 days later a frame of emerging brood.

I use screened bottom boards on all of my colonies, including my nucs. I never close the screen, even on the nucs. Granted, my winters are mild compared to northern states, but are no milder than winters in southern Missouri, Tennessee or other areas along Latitude 36. My winter losses are reasonable, if I have prepared properly. My style of beekeeping includes the use of powdered sugar dusting, which requires open bottom boards. I also see evidence that natural mite fall allows many viable mites to fall out of the colony. Fully one out of 5 or 6 are alive and mobile on the closure board when I do natural mite fall counts. 

I am pro open mesh bottom boards because of the benefits I derive from their use. Others whose beekeeping style is such that they receive no benefits from their use would not like them, I can understand that. When I recommend a procedure or beekeeping method to a new beekeeper I do so because I have found it to work under my conditions. I do not know all of the conditions in other areas of the U. S., and I can't read minds, I can only tell what works for me. Also, I will have tried the item or procedure, or I will say that I have not tried what I am recommending.


----------



## AR Beekeeper

Double post.


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## Michael Bush

Even if they are not more likely to abscond (and in my experience they are) with a screened bottom, a package often gets confused with an open screened bottom board and ends up clustered under the bottom. There are too many potential problems with leaving it open.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespackages.htm#dontleavethescreenedbottomopen


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## Lauri

The only two bottom board designs I make now. (And I've tried several.)

-Fully screened with FRP slide in, which I don't remove no matter what time of year.

















And solid, sloped.

I made some of my first sloped ones with a small screened area in front, but found they drain just fine without it. Your options for ventilating from the bottom are eliminated if you don't use some kind of screen though.

















I overwinter some really large colonies that can create an enormous amount of condensation at times and my climate is exceptionally wet. These are the only two designs I've found that have excellent drainage without being drafty. 
Sometimes I still have to slightly ventilate from the bottom to control condensation, along with top entrances.

These give me the options I need to keep colonies dry overwinter and no disgusting bottom boards to clean up in spring.


----------



## Lauri

What I also like about the sloped ones are the bees have some room to congregate when populations are at their highest. 
With that room underneath I get some comb built, but it's not excessive and in fall or winter is abandoned, brittle and easy to knock off with my hive tool when I tip the hive.

Here you see an entire season of use- from April - December. Never cleaned until I tipped to check for mite drop after December OAV treatment.









In a few I slipped in a piece of white cardboard to to catch mite drop. That was easy too and would eliminate draftiness in winter if colony did not need the bottom vent.


















I do seal the plywood and calk around the edges to keep moisture from degrading the ends.

Below was the prototype I used for a few years before making the sloped version. Good, but the flat bottom still could collect a lot of grunge and moisture overwinter. 









(I give them room to congregate below frames on the bottom board in summer, and on top the hive in winter)


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## Lauri

I had a hive up at my mountain yard that was light as a feather when I moved them to new benches in January. I remember last year it was in the same shape, very light but recovered well on it's own.
I had some warm weather to check it about a month later, and was horrified to see the bottom was fully screened and WIDE open. It had just gone through some harsh weather and it was amazing it was still in decent shape. But the colony was ( triple deep) as far away from the bottom as they could get and on the edge of starvation. Unlike the other colonies in that location that were honeybound for the most part. It's not that much colder than my home yard, but the wind comes directly off Mt. Rainier and it has a real bite to it, even on sunny days.

I felt bad, this hive had been like this and struggled for 2 years because of this oversight on my part.












A few years ago, I ran solid bottom boards on one bench and fully screened and open bottom boards on a bench right next to it. 5 hives on each bench.

All hives were made in May with 5 deep frames and a capped queen cell at the exact some time. All hives were in double deeps by late summer.

I ran them all season and was shocked late summer to find the hives with screened fully open bottoms were less than half the weight of the hives on solid bottoms. 
Hives in solid bottoms had colonies that settled in the bottom box with honey overhead going into winter. Hives with open screened bottoms settled mostly in the top box, with a majority of fall feed stored in available empty comb below the colony. Full opened screened bottom hives also had a larger mite count. 
All overwintered well, but closed the screened up as soon as I saw the difference late summer.









And _that _is what I know about bottom boards


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## av8r

A good reason to buy Nucs I suppose.


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## Artur_M

Lauri,
What size screen are you using for your boards and where do you buy them from?

Thanks,


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## Lauri

Artur_M said:


> Lauri,
> What size screen are you using for your boards and where do you buy them from?
> 
> Thanks,


#8 screen from Amazon. They were cheaper than my local hardware store. I paid $133.19 for it a week ago. Amazon fluctuates their prices for some reason. It's $10. more now. Wait a week, it may change.
They also have smaller rolls if you don't need that much. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LZRN82E/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## cerezha

Artur_M said:


> I would like to hear some of the reasons.
> 
> Here are the reasons you SHOULD use screened bottom board:
> 1. You'll see what's going on in your hive without opening it and disturbing your bees.
> 2. Extra vent during summer time - makes sense to me.
> 3. Mite dropping through
> 4. .....
> 5. Can see if there is a wax moth and it's approximate location.
> 6. Dead SHB drops through
> ....


I agree with above. My SBB is sandwiched with solid board with the gap approx 3/4in between. When necessary, this gap can be closed. Sticky board (political posters) can be slide in to count mites etc. In general, I like SBB because I can see the beginninmg of the potential problem(s) on the sticky board. It gave me the estimate of mites count etc. Since the top of the hive is sealed with propolis, there is no ventilation issues and my bees know the way home - they never gather under SBB. I just happen to have one beehive with solid bottom. In general, I do not see much difference, but solid bottom hive were flooded during our unusual heavy rain. Of coarse I need to tilt beehive to prevent flooding, but I do not need to do so for SBB hives. All my beehives are TF and foundationless. It seems to me that they equlibrated with mites and I neglected mites counting for the past few years. Since, I am a hobbyist, my ways are different.


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## JConnolly

Artur_M said:


> Lauri,
> What size screen are you using for your boards and where do you buy them from?
> 
> Thanks,



You can also buy #8 hardware cloth from McMaster-Carr by the foot. Its a little more expensive that way but you won't have to buy a large roll.

https://www.mcmaster.com/#9220T48


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## Saunya

Ok so now I am paranoid about having a screened bottom board...just installed the nuc on Saturday and so far they seem to be doing well. It was recommended to me to use a screened board for the FL heat (already in the mid 80's here) Now I wish I had found this thread a week ago.

Today is the day we do our first hive inspection so maybe I will go ahead and put the solid board back in. (I'm going to be a worried mess til we get out there today and make sure it's all good).


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## Tom1617

Saunya said:


> Ok so now I am paranoid about having a screened bottom board...just installed the nuc on Saturday and so far they seem to be doing well. It was recommended to me to use a screened board for the FL heat (already in the mid 80's here) Now I wish I had found this thread a week ago.
> 
> Today is the day we do our first hive inspection so maybe I will go ahead and put the solid board back in. (I'm going to be a worried mess til we get out there today and make sure it's all good).


In Florida you might want to keep the SBB just open it during the hot months... both have plusses.


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## Earthboy

While I agree with the original post--that during brood-rearing wooden bottoms are better to maintain the ambient temp--I would not throw away the SBB's yet. If your SBB's are fashioned in such a way that you cannot close/block it, as most of my home-made ones are (to recycle the old wooden bottom boards), use a cardboard and place it under the SBB's to block the draft. When the temperature gets hot, usually sooner than you think, just remove the cardboard for better ventilation.

Earthboy

https://www.facebook.com/YSKHoney/


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## Saunya

Tom1617 said:


> In Florida you might want to keep the SBB just open it during the hot months... both have plusses.


Thanks for the comment! We did our first inspection this morning and everything is fabulous in there so I think we will leave the screen. It is supposed to be 88 here tomorrow.


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## Rader Sidetrack

It doesn't matter how much "ventilation" you provide in hot weather - ventilation can _NEVER_ reduce the hive temperature below the ambient air temperature. Since bees want their brood area temperature at 93-94 degrees F 24/7, and if its 99 F, outside, "ventilation" means that there will be a _lot_ of 99 degree air flowing through the hive.

If instead, you allowed the bees to manage the ventilation, they would move adequate outside air through the hive to match/utilize the water droplets they were bringing into the hive to create evaporative cooling. Properly managed, evaporative cooling can reduce the air temperature inside a hive _BELOW_ the ambient air temperature outside. Ventilation can never achieve that.

The links below are not perfect references, but a place to start for more info on evaporative cooling:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4601407?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
https://books.google.com/books?id=3...#v=onepage&q=evaporative cooling hive&f=false


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## Greeny

Yikes! Thanks for the thread bump. Just installed two packages yesterday and did not close off the SBB's. I'll do that this evening.


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## Brad Bee

Rader Sidetrack said:


> It doesn't matter how much "ventilation" you provide in hot weather - ventilation can _NEVER_ reduce the hive temperature below the ambient air temperature. Since bees want their brood area temperature at 93-94 degrees F 24/7, and if its 99 F, outside, "ventilation" means that there will be a _lot_ of 99 degree air flowing through the hive.
> 
> If instead, you allowed the bees to manage the ventilation, they would move adequate outside air through the hive to match/utilize the water droplets they were bringing into the hive to create evaporative cooling. Properly managed, evaporative cooling can reduce the air temperature inside a hive _BELOW_ the ambient air temperature outside. Ventilation can never achieve that.


Graham, there you go using that logic crap again. Being able to say it works better because "I" said so sounds so much better in most peoples minds and their arguments.


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## Rader Sidetrack

For those that would like to see _more science_, here is another reference on hive evaporative cooling:
https://books.google.com/books?id=0...v=onepage&q=bees evaporative cooling&f=false


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## Earthboy

"It doesn't matter how much "ventilation" you provide in hot weather - ventilation can NEVER reduce the hive temperature below the ambient air temperature. Since bees want their brood area temperature at 93-94 degrees F 24/7, and if its 99 F, outside, "ventilation" means that there will be a lot of 99 degree air flowing through the hive."

On a hot day when the bees on the wooden bottom are busy fanning, counter the number of them at the entrance, and then replace the wooden bottom with a screened one. Then counter the number of the fanning bees. Until you do this "scientific experiment," please spare me your "science."

Dr. Kim


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## clyderoad

Earthboy said:


> On a hot day when the bees on the wooden bottom are busy fanning, counter the number of them at the entrance, and then replace the wooden bottom with a screened one. Then counter the number of the fanning bees. Until you do this "scientific experiment," please spare me your "science."
> 
> Dr. Kim


Professor, please explain what your "scientific experiment" proves?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Earthboy said:


> On a hot day when the bees on the wooden bottom are busy fanning, counter the number of them at the entrance, and then replace the wooden bottom with a screened one. Then counter the number of the fanning bees.


If you were to do that, and _IF_ there are less bees at the entrance after you open the screened bottom, all that shows is that there are less bees at the entrance fanning. It doesn't tell you what those previous 'fanners' are now doing.

They _could_ very well be off hauling more water in. They _could_ now be inside the hive, trying to block off/slow down the blast of hot air that has been created by the beekeeper opening the screen. But at this point there isn't enough information available to determine exactly what they are doing.

Once again, it is *not possible* to reduce the temperature of the hive below ambient [outside] air temperature by having more "ventilation". That is not a beekeeping issue - it apples to non-beekeeping scenarios as well. Basic science.


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## AHudd

Earthboy said:


> On a hot day when the bees on the wooden bottom are busy fanning, counter the number of them at the entrance, and then replace the wooden bottom with a screened one. Then counter the number of the fanning bees. Until you do this "scientific experiment," please spare me your "science."
> 
> Dr. Kim


Please define hot and throw in a humidity percentage if you could, so I could do some sciency stuff.

Alex


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## Artur_M

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Once again, it is *not possible* to reduce the temperature of the hive below ambient [outside] air temperature by having more "ventilation". That is not a beekeeping issue - it apples to non-beekeeping scenarios as well. Basic science.


I agree with this much *only*.

Rader, what is cooler? car with open windows or closed windows under the sun?
Why the house roofs/attics have vents and in some cases vent-fans ??

I'll let the mode-Rader to come-up to basic conclusion.


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## crofter

Rader;

I think you are "sowing your seed on barren ground":rolleyes;

I just don't know why some people have such difficulty with the concept of evaporative cooling. 

Some people get it; some people don't.

Some people will, and some people won't!


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## Rader Sidetrack

Artur_M said:


> Rader, what is cooler? car with open windows or closed windows under the sun?
> Why the house roofs/attics have vents and in some cases vent-fans ??


In neither of those scenarios is the temperature inside the attic or car going to get below the ambient outside air temperature. The _*very best*_ that one can hope for is that the attic/car temperature is reduced to the same as the outside temperature, and that is why those vents/windows are there.

Note that beehives have something that cars and attics *don't* have - a sophisticated 'inside' misting system to facilitate evaporative cooling of that space. The bees in a hive _manage_ that evaporative cooling system - if humans let them!

And those bees can reduce the temperature of the hive to _below_ ambient outside air temperature, which cannot be done in a car without mechanical air conditioning.


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## Kiran

Looks like people don't know anything about "swamp cooler" aka. "evaporative cooler". It's an old fashion AC. 








One would not open windows and doors ajar while running AC at his own home, why to do that favor to bees?


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## AR Beekeeper

No one doubts that bees use water evaporation to help cool the hive, the problem is most beekeepers don't understand how the process works in a brood nest. It is not like an air conditioner, nor a water cooler, it is like the fan blowing air across the skin of a person that is perspiring, it cools the surface of the skin, not the air some distance above the skin.

Bees fan to move the air over the surface of the comb, the water evaporates and cools the surface of the comb and the area of the cells. The bees have no intention of cooling the air passing in and out of the brood chamber, just as bees have no intention of heating the interior of the hive in the winter. They keep different areas of the brood at different temperatures depending on if the brood is worker or drone, and I believe they can do this with less effort over screened bottom boards than with solid bottoms.

Have none of you had a colony melt down in the summer? Those of you that have had this happen, was the colony on a screened or solid bottom? When a colony beards, and it is the only colony that does so even when others are as strong or stronger, is it on a screened or solid bottom? Bees don't exit the hive to remove their added body heat except as a last resort, and the idea that they re-enter to help cool it is hogwash. If they could have cooled it by remaining inside they would have done so in the first place.


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## Rader Sidetrack

AR Beekeeper said:


> It is not like an air conditioner, nor a water cooler, it is like the fan blowing air across the skin of a person that is perspiring, it cools the surface of the skin, not the air some distance above the skin.


If the [now] humidified air is not exhausted from the room the person is in, then I agree with the above. The effect of the fan is very transient, and only lasts as long as that room's air can hold additional humidity. If there is no outside air exchange, the cooling effect will stop when the air can not hold more moisture.

But that is not how evaporative cooling works in a hive. The bees push the humid air outside, and draw drier air in so the process can continue, and yes, lower the air temperature below the ambient outside temperature.





> Bees don't exit the hive to remove their added body heat except as a last resort, and the idea that they re-enter to help cool it is hogwash. If they could have cooled it by remaining inside they would have done so in the first place.


Hogwash? You are saying that bees don't react to _changed_ hive conditions?:scratch: :s
Remember, my earlier comment was with regard to the _beekeeper changing_ the position of the screen closure board and consequently introducing additional warmer outside air into the hive, in which case the bees are adapting to the changed hive conditions.

.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Here is a tech sheet on an evaporative cooling system:
http://faculty.caes.uga.edu/pthomas/hort4040.web/Carolina Cooler SpecTech sheet.pdf

This system is suitable for greenhouses and facilities like poultry barns, where cooling below ambient temperature is desired, but full blown air conditioning is not warranted. Note the map that estimates reasonable potential cooling in different areas of the country. Even in what is perceived as the relatively humid South, for example in Concord NC (near Charlotte) there is a potential 12 degrees evaporative cooling available.

Yes, this a marketing piece, and of course daily conditions vary, but evaporative cooling below ambient temperature is not just a theory, it is reality. There are many hundreds of poultry barns across the South taking advantage of that process.

.


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## msl

We have dry air out here, I can get up to 30F cooler in my house with a swamp cooler. 

air flow 101....cold air sinks hot air rises, put on a SBB and all the cold air flows out the bottom


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## Brad Bee

Even though some of you said I'm wrong, it looks like the trend is already starting again.

Bump to the top for new beeks.


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## Slow Drone

Brad Bee said:


> Even though some of you said I'm wrong, it looks like the trend is already starting again.
> 
> Bump to the top for new beeks.


Yep noticed the same thing Brad.


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## Brad Bee

Bump....

Screened bottom boards: great for getting bees to cluster UNDER the hive too! I'm glad I never drank that Kool Aid.


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## Slow Drone

Brad Bee said:


> Bump....
> 
> Screened bottom boards: great for getting bees to cluster UNDER the hive too! I'm glad I never drank that Kool Aid.


Oh wait until the package queens are superseded and the new queen returns from mating flights and ends up on the bottom side of the screen.


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## mlanden

Let me make sure I understand before doing what I'm thinking of doing .....

I have a ScBB on my 1 hive (from a package 3 weeks ago). Colony seems to be doing well (as of my inspection last week) but can/should I place a flat board underneath the hive? Would it help the bees having additional darkness *now*? Or would it be disturbing - altho' maybe a welcomed change as opposed to unwelcomed? 

I thought of using my stickyboard to make added darkness for the colony, but I see that my hive (for a reason I don't get) doesn't have the space under the "landing zone" by the entrance for placing a stickyboard there. A flat board seems to be my only option.

Any opinions as to how to go? Thx .....

[interesting thread, too -- good to see the various opinions, and I like to see a general consensus among the experienced people; gives me some confidence]


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## Cloverdale

Look, I personally think this thread has evolved to being very uninformative and snide. What it boils down to is you can close off the scBB when you want to; you have a choice. With SBB you don't. Again, it is up to you as a beekeeper to choose and experiment and educate yourself as to your particular environment as to where you are located.


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## Brad Bee

Cloverdale said:


> Look, I personally think this thread has evolved to being very uninformative and snide. What it boils down to is you can close off the scBB when you want to; you have a choice. With SBB you don't. Again, it is up to you as a beekeeper to choose and experiment and educate yourself as to your particular environment as to where you are located.


I agree that it's turned snide and so have I about this thread. It wasn't started that way though. It was started to try and help new beekeepers, then all the ScBB fans came on the thread posting about how good beneficial they are. The problem with a new beekeeper educating themselves on what to buy is that they don't yet know enough to do that.

So to my question. What problems has a solid bottom board ever caused that a screened bottom board would fix? Please don't say keeping the hive cooler. We had over 120 days of high temps over 90 degrees last year and my bees did just fine during the summer. They are pretty good at ventilating as needed.


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## Earthboy

If any of you want to throw away your UNUSED/NEW screened bottom boards, I want them: I will pay for the shipment if you want to toss them for free.

Earthboy

Here is an account of my third bee rescue this year:

https://www.facebook.com/YSKHoney/


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## Rader Sidetrack

Here is an example of a new thread (started 9 pm last night) with an 'open' screened bottom board problem that the intent of this thread is referencing:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?336026-Bee-cluster-under-a-new-hive

If we were to list all the similar threads here, it would be a _looong_ list. 


Note that I make a distinction between solid bottom boards that have a 'screened' oil tray above the solid bottom, and those that have screened bottoms 'open' to the environment. For an example of a solid bottom with a screened tray, see Rusty's plans here: http://schoonerbay.net/rustysbees/ipm.html

.


----------



## Brad Bee

Rader Sidetrack said:


> If we were to list all the similar threads here, it would be a _looong_ list.


If a comprehensive list of similar posts was compiled the ScBB fans would still dismiss it as hogwash.


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## bucksbees

Brad Bee said:


> So to my question. What problems has a solid bottom board ever caused that a screened bottom board would fix?


On March 8th had a hive swarm. Left enough queen cells to make up two nice strong splits. Both splits went to solid bottom boards and smaller cavities to allow them to better defend entrance, and help keep temp warmer due to being on the tail end of winter with some nights in the 40's. 3 weeks ago moved them to screen bottom boards due to no more cool nights and they had reached the threshold levels to handle a full deep. During the change over, I seen roughly 300 Small Hive beetles per hive. As of yesterday the oil tray underneath was full of small hive beetles, and between the two hives I only seen 2 SHB's, and killed them both fast.

Solid bottom boards and screened bottom boards are tools. Use the right tool for the job, that's my take on it.


----------



## Brad Bee

Good point about the SHB's. I have all solid bottom boards and have seen less than 20 SHB's total since I started keeping bees in 2013.


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## bucksbees

Brad Bee said:


> Good point about the SHB's. I have all solid bottom boards and have seen less than 20 SHB's total since I started keeping bees in 2013.


I have one out yard that is bad for SHB. Trees, soft sandy soil, no full sunlight. Others in the area loss hives to SHB. 

That's great your numbers are low.  The old adage still stands, all beekeeping is local. lol


----------



## dudelt

A screened BB is a tool. Just like any other tool, it can be used wrong. I my area using it as a cooling tool for the hive is ridiculous. Since weather records have been kept, the temperature has only hit 100 degrees F. two or three times total. Even 90 degrees only happens a couple of times a year and most years not at all. A really hot day here is a cool fall day in Texas. Most of the people that I know around here, including myself, use them for varroa monitoring. No, they do not give spot on information about varroa levels but they do give information regarding the presence of varroa. The last 5 years of using them has shown me that I may see 1 or 2 in a weekly drop but come July - August, the rate increases to 10-15 per day and it is treatment time. If I see significantly more than the usual 1 or 2 in a week, it is time to do an alcohol wash and find out what is happening. Using the screened BB does not mean you can stop doing other forms of varroa monitoring but it gives you another tool to help keep track of them.


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## Brad Bee

dudelt said:


> it can be used wrong.


That's the problem, new beeks don't know how to use them, and when they order online, they don't have someone to tell them, then the bees abscond, or live outside on the bottom. It's hard to screw up a solid bottom board.


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## Cloverdale

Brad Bee said:


> That's the problem, new beeks don't know how to use them, and when they order online, they don't have someone to tell them, then the bees abscond, or live outside on the bottom. It's hard to screw up a solid bottom board.


That is the problem right there. There has been a thread on Bee-l regarding new beekeepers. It seems that most new beekeepers move forward with keeping bees without any education, reading, finding a mentor or Bee Club. Dudelt, above, made a good point, it's a tool, and it seems as though everyone uses them for different reasons. As a beekeeper we have a huge responsibility keeping these animals out of their "habitat" and putting them in all sorts of containers. I bet if you call Brushy Mtn. and ask about their usage of scBB you'll get a bunch of different answers as on this forum.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Here is another of 'those' threads: 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ing-underneath-the-screened-bottom-of-my-hive
... thread started 1 pm today; brand new Beesource member.


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## Brad Bee

Amazing isn't it?

It's the same broken record every single spring.


----------



## Slow Drone

Brad Bee said:


> Amazing isn't it?
> 
> It's the same broken record every single spring.


It would be interesting to see how many threads have been started here on Beesource over this same reoccurring scenario.


----------



## crofter

The nonsense myth that the _bees only heat the cluster, not the hive_, helps perpetuate the story that an open bottom is "no problem" in cool spring weather.


----------



## BDT123

Sorry all, but I just built screened bottom boards with slide-out trays. Cor-plast trays with front 'handles' that seal the plenum below the screen. 
It's like a solid bottom board for Fall/ Winter/Spring and a nicely ventilated bottom for Summer. Best of both worlds I think. I can put a mite-matrix sheet on the cor-plast to do mite counts pre-treatment and post treatment. Seal up the hive for OAV or other treatments. A million ways to make things work, folks.
Brian


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## Earthboy

BDT123 said:


> Sorry all, but I just built screened bottom boards with slide-out trays. Cor-plast trays with front 'handles' that seal the plenum below the screen.
> It's like a solid bottom board for Fall/ Winter/Spring and a nicely ventilated bottom for Summer. Best of both worlds I think. I can put a mite-matrix sheet on the cor-plast to do mite counts pre-treatment and post treatment. Seal up the hive for OAV or other treatments. A million ways to make things work, folks.
> Brian


Excellent, Brian! For those suffering from SHB's in the south, try sticky mouse pad UNDER the screen.

EB


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## Brad Bee

TTT for weekend package installs. Looks like *PBB's already claimed 2 more packages in a top bar hive.


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## Kcnc1

So I've been reading through the posts and I am trying to learn. If your hive is thriving, what is the downside to a screened bottom board? I've picked up that they may cause new colonies to leave, but past that point are their drawbacks to it? I live in Charlotte NC area so winters are mild.


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## Artur_M

Kcnc1 said:


> I've picked up that they may cause new colonies to leave, but past that point are their drawbacks to it?


I was going to write a comment here and I did it before.
As many of you know and probably experiencing as I do, this is a hot swarming period, so both of my hives swarmed (one of them even twice - last was yesterday).

My 1st hive swarmed and I put them in the hive, and I like SBB. I didn't close it thinking that bees will acclimate there since they swarmed and basically they were prepared to live on the tree brunch (open space), but checked in 10 days, they didn't do much in the hive and out of lots of them there were about orange size ball of bees.

The 2nd hive swarmed and I caught them and this time I closed the SBB and also put entrance reducer to 1", so hopping they will do better.

1st hive swarmed again yesterday and I had to let them go, since they were on the tree very high and getting them from the tree was dangerous.

I am still for SBB, but as I experienced, with new colonies it probably need to be closed for a while.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Kcnc1 said:


> So I've been reading through the posts and I am trying to learn. If your hive is thriving, what is the downside to a screened bottom board?


I suggest rephrasing that question slightly: What is the [alleged] _advantage_ of an open screened bottom compared to a solid bottom board (or a screen/oil tray combination - essentially, a _closed_ bottom)?

There are a variety of related threads here:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?336212-Screened-bottom-boards

.


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## Brad Bee

Graham, I'm starting to think you don't like ScBB's. Come on man, they're all the rage. Get with the times. :lpf:


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## Slow Drone

Brad Bee said:


> TTT for weekend package installs. Looks like *PBB's already claimed 2 more packages in a top bar hive.


Don't forget the swarms that don't stay with the debris tray left out.


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## Kcnc1

I don't want to rephrase the question because I already have a screened bottom board, my hive is doing fine and I am new to all of this. So I would like to know if there are potential problems going forward. When I create a new hive I can ask the question as you've rephrased it, but for now I'm trying to understand if I'll have problems going forward and should incur the extra expense of another bottom board now.


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## Rader Sidetrack

No need to buy anything special - just _close off_ the open screen. Lots of 'found' materials could do that - a piece of scrap plywood, a piece of corrugated plastic signboard ("political signs"), etc.

Read the threads at the link i provided to see what issues may come up with an open screened bottom. One obvious one is that open screen bottoms _impede_ the bees' efforts at managing their hive environment. Evaporative cooling makes it possible for the bees to reduce temperatures _below_ the ambient temperature on hot days. A big hole in the hive bottom impedes that effort. Read those links. :shhhh:


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## AR Beekeeper

Kcnc1, remember that what you read in these posts are nothing more than personal likes, dislikes, and beliefs. 

The only controlled studies done have shown that Open Mesh Bottom Boards ("Screened Bottom Boards") perform as well or better than solid bottom boards in hot summer conditions. In winter in Iowa, using Russian bees, the colonies with open bottoms survived as well as the control colonies, however they used 20% more food during the winter. 

Google Doug Somerville's study done in New South Wales, Australia. This was a 2 year study done with 200 colonies. It showed 15% more honey production than the solid bottom control colonies, and stressed colonies don't produce more honey than non-stressed ones do.

There have been no studies done, to my knowledge, on the cause of package bees or swarms absconding. I doubt that screened bottoms are the cause, even though some say that is the cause. I have used both solid and screened bottoms and I don't have swarms absconding with either one. However, it would be prudent, in cold spring conditions, to use a small hive for a small colony.

Whether or not you use open, or solid, bottom boards is your decision. Successful beekeeping is done using both types of bottom boards. Don't allow yourself to be spooked into thinking you must have a particular hive configuration to be a successful beekeeper.

A Canadian beekeeper wrote an article in Gleanings in Bee Culture in which he said the honey crop is more dependent on the man than the type of hive used. That was written around 1900, and it is still true today.


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## Brad Bee

Yes read what Rader posted links to and also take note of posts that talk about pollen being found on the "sticky" board under the screen. I never see pollen on the inside of my solid bottom boards. The bees apparently salvage what's dropped when they can get to it. Sure they may only drop 2% of what they bring in (SWAG) but how many of us would shake nectar out of honey frames and waste it? 

Screened bottom boards were supposed to help with varroa mites but they don't. Then they're supposed to help with hive beetles but I don't think they do that based on the hives I've seen with ScBB's. If a beetle can fall through the screen it can gain entry to the hive through the screen as well. It's gotta work both ways. 

Well, since the original 2 theories for using them have been debunked, in my mind at least now users want to say they help with ventilation. That's hogwash. Bees don't need help with that. They power ventilate the hives and use evaporative cooling all by themselves. They don't need a wide open bottom to impede their control of the air flow. 

But then users also say you can monitor mite levels using trays under the hives. Yes I suppose you can but you can also put a piece of coroplast inside the hive with a solid bottom board or perform a mite wash in about 5 minutes per hive and get a much more accurate number. 

The ScBB's do cost more though, so people can brag about that


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## Brad Bee

AR beekeeper, so they work as well as solid bottom boards according to studies? Well except for them using more honey in the winter. That's not good. But it's interesting that something that costs more and apparently causes problems with new package or swarm installs, works as well as something cheaper and as time tested as a solid bottom board. 

We don't have to do blind trials on packages absconding, just read beesource on Monday through Wednesday every week during package install season.


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## Rader Sidetrack

AR Beekeeper said:


> Google Doug Somerville's study done in New South Wales, Australia. This was a 2 year study done with 200 colonies.


Well, I for one, would like to read that study.

Searching Google for ...
_Doug Somerville study screened honey New South Wales, Australia_

... doesn't yield any likely results that appear to show that. Several variations on that search phrase weren't successful either. There _are_ a number of bee related pages/studies with Doug Somerville's name attached, but I couldn't find one that said that open screened bottom hives produced 15% more honey.

I'd be grateful if someone could post a link. 



[If one isn't quite sure how to post a link here, even just a domain name (like "beesource.com", for example) would be helpful.]


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## AR Beekeeper

Search for Screened Bottom Boards, Rural Industries Research and Development Corporation, study by Dr. Doug Somerville.

When I said 15% more honey I may have misspoke, the actual statement is 15% weight gain.

You may want to watch the video on youtube, Screened Bottom Boards by Doug Somerville.


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## Rader Sidetrack

OK, I believe that this link is to the study mentioned above:
https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/items/14-061

(At first glance, they want you to pay to buy a printed copy for $25, but you can download a PDF for free.) 
You most likely will have to download the document to your local PC and then open and read it locally.

Everyone is free to read the study themselves. What caught my eye is this ...


> The results of this study suggest that there is no significant difference in productivity of bee hives with the use of screened bottom boards compared to conventional bottom boards. Thus any conversation on the use of screened bottom boards should be focused on their impact on varroa mite populations.
> 
> (snippet above from page #29)
> https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/items/14-061


[hr] [/hr]
Just in case the study above is not the one _AR Beekeeper_ had in mind, here are some other links:


> Screened bottom boards are considered an effective weapon in the management of Varroa and the project, run by Dr Doug Somerville from the NSW Department of Primary Industries, compared the two options in a variety of seasonal conditions and locations.
> 
> Spokesman for the R&D Program, James Kershaw, said many beekeepers have been concerned that screened bottom boards expose honey bee colonies to drafts and greater variation in hive temperature.
> 
> “The results of this research demonstrated no difference in the productivity of honey bee colonies. In fact, the screened bottom boards provide many advantages for beekeepers, not just in the management of Varroa,” Mr Kershaw said.
> 
> http://www.rirdc.gov.au/news/2014/12/09/screened-bottom-boards-provide-varroa-management-option





> Can bottom boards help fight the mite?
> 
> Dr Somerville said the concept has been around for a long time in other countries where Varroa mites are already endemic.
> 
> “There are many designs available and they cost a little more than traditional closed hives, but they may possibly better prepare beekeepers to live with Varroa mite if and when they arrive on our shores.
> 
> “Alone a screened bottom board may offer 5-30 per cent control which can then be combined with an organic or synthetic chemical treatment program to acheive the greater than 90 per cent control needed to maintain hive productivity.
> 
> “This very simple technology is at work 24 hours a day, 365 days a year as a part of an integrated pest management program,” said Dr Somerville.
> 
> Australia is one of the last countries free of the mite which has wreaked havoc across the globe, and many scientists believe it will reach our shores sooner rather than later. It is likely to decimate wild European honeybee colonies and severely impact managed hives – not to mention the estimated 65 per cent of agricultural production in Australia that is reliant on honey bees for pollination.
> 
> http://www.rirdc.gov.au/news/2011/09/07/can-bottom-boards-help-fight-the-mite-


There are various mentions of varroa in the above links. Let us be clear here, there were not varroa in Australia at the time these studies were prepared.


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## SugarDaddy

I never had this problem until this year, so I did leave the SBBs I guess I should have put the insert in to restrict them until I had some brood...Thanks! I'll try it next year from a more southern location... Too cold for my old bones here anymore.


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## Planner

I have used IPM bottom for 10 years with out any problem. I do keep the covers in until the weather gets very warm usually in June. The I pull the inner covers when the hives are very well established, and the screens at the bottom serve as an excellent means of ventilation during extremely hot weather such as we are currently experiencing.... (90+). They are all closed during the winter. I also use a screened inner cover in the summer, and in this manner there is a continuous flow air. I have very limited bearding and very limited swarming. When the weather is extremely hot in the 90"s, I often tip the cantilever cover by pulling it back and setting the top on the edge of the super. This further increases air flow. If the weather is cooler I drop the cover to its natural position. I don't know why Brad Bees flew the coop, but I am convinced that there is a need to be more vigilant about where package bees and queens are purchased. It would also be interesting if Brad could tell us more about his hives, their materials , paint and location of hives as the bee departure may have nothing to do with screens bottom board.




rookie2531 said:


> I for one, like the benefits of the screened ipm board.
> 
> Now i see sbb and never know if someone is say screened bottom board or solod bottom board.
> 
> So i do not use the abbreviaton sbb. Its confusing to me. But when i refer to my screened bottom board, i do not use those words either, because to me it refers a screen with no option to close. So i use the term "ipm" and then everyone knows what im talking about.
> Now with the terms out of the way, i do like my ipm board. And when its 105° f outside. They are outside the hive bearding and to me thats a waste of them. Like all the workers on cig. Break. Nothing getting done, or at least not as much that could be. All i have to do is crack it an inch and within a few monutes, they all go back to work.
> 
> Another thing, i dont have to open the flood gates for wax moth and shb for ventilation either. Open the air, yet easy guarded entrance still.


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## Planner

I agree fully.


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## Planner

Brad
For 10 years I have used slatted racks in conjunction with screened bottoms and screened inner covers. No problems other than mites.I do leave the covers over the screened bottoms until hot weather. This year I forgot to place the covers on the SBB when I installed several NUCS. They are doing just as well as the other hives with covers. In fact they are some of my strongest, but I attribute that to the queens. I do pay a great deal of attention to new hives after installation , but once they get going I stay out of their way and let them do their thing. I simply can not inspect the inner working son each hive, but I do observe on a daily basis the external flow of bees, orientation flights and observe the comparison of activity between one hive and another. I don't see any problems with slatted rack or combing them with SBB or IPM.


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## AR Beekeeper

I thought I would post the results that a friend of mine had installing package bees this spring. He installed 26 packages, all were in ten frame boxes, and all were on open mesh bottom boards. They were set out in pairs, with about 8 to 10 feet between pairs, in a line around his property.

Two to the packages absconded, one completely left the hive for parts unknown. In the other package only the queen and a handful of workers remained. The workers from this hive left their queen and was seen moving into a package four pairs away. Both of the absconding packages were sitting side by side in their pair which was about in the center of the line of packages.

If open mesh bottom boards caused these 2 packages to abscond, why didn't the other 24 act the same way?

We know that bees have always had colonies to abscond, and the more Africanized genes we get in the gene pool, the more we will see it occur. In the old literature absconding was usually blamed on overheating or starvation, but that was not always the case. The truth is that we don't yet know what motivates bees to do the things they do.


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## Rader Sidetrack

AR Beekeeper said:


> If open mesh bottom boards caused these 2 packages to abscond, why didn't the other 24 act the same way?


I don't see anywhere in this thread that says ALL packages installed over open mesh bottom boards would abscond.

But your friend sustained an approximate _8% abscond _rate. Who thinks that is a good thing?:s Would it have made more sense to _at least temporarily_ close those open mesh bottoms in hope of a lower abscond rate?


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## AR Beekeeper

I have no problem with closing the bottom temporarily, I have said before that small colonies need to be cared for in relation to their size. 

I also have no problem with the bottom being left open, because I don't believe that in our conditions in May an open bottom creates a problem. If the packages were being installed the last of March or early April, then I believe the packages would have benefited from a closed bottom.

And about that 8% abscond rate, what about all the years of installing packages or swarms with no absconds? Is this a case of one Aw S... wiping out 10 Attaboys?


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

Back in the SBB hayday we nearly had 100% SBB on all our hives.

We now have a handful for mite monitoring.

You could not pay me to go back to them


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## drummerboy

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Here is my opinion: The reason that "they go back to work" is that by opening a big hole in the bottom of the hive, you have disturbed the bees' evaporative cooling balance, and now a bunch more of those bearding bees are called to go retrieve/haul in more water into the hive, and (likely) also go to work to block/reverse that extra airflow through the hive!!!
> 
> Bees want their brood area at 93-94 degrees F, When the ambient air temperature [outside] the hive is 105 degrees, it doesn't matter how much ambient air [at 105 degrees] is flowing through the hive, the temperature can _never_ be lower than 105 without evaporative cooling. It just doesn't work that way inside a hive, or anywhere else.
> 
> The key to a _swamp cooler_ operation is _controlled_ ventilation, enough to move the humid air out so it can be replaced with dryer air, but not so much outside air that the cooling effect is overwhelmed. Bees are masters at controlling airflow in/out of their hive - that what they _do_. Its somewhat presumptuous on your part to think that you can do a better job of that, particularly since you clearly aren't willing to commit to being the HVAC 'controller' on a full-time basis.


Nice explanation.....and kinda funny too. Thanks for the am smile! 

We use both solids and screened BB with varying results that are rarely replicated from year to year....so we've concluded that the bees are making decisions that they're not always sharing with us, and that's just OK.


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## Boardrida20

I like to use a SBB over a solid and then close it off with an easily cut chunk of blue foam. 

Just cut half way with a box cutter and snap it to the length and width you need. Takes 2 minutes and it hangs out some so you can easily grab it..


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## AR Beekeeper

When we speak about cooling the brood nest we should remember how beekeepers once thought about heating the hive in winter. They heat the cluster and not the air surrounding the cluster. Any air is heated only because the heat warms the air when it escapes the cluster. 

Bees don't intend to cool the air, they are trying to cool the comb, so the process is more like human perspiration than it is like the comparison to a swamp cooler. Air is moving in and out of the hive at the rate of about 230 to 250 feet per minute so any air cooled is not in the hive long enough to be of much benefit. The benefit comes from the evaporation of water cooling the surface of the comb and reducing the temperature in the cells, protecting the larvae from overheating. Any cooling of the air is the same as warming the air in winter, it was not the bee's intention.


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## robson1015

I am brand new to beekeeping, actually will get bees in the spring for the first time. It seems to me that in the natural setting for bees in a hollow tree, there are no screens. Thank you and good night !!


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## Cloverdale

robson1015 said:


> I am brand new to beekeeping, actually will get bees in the spring for the first time. It seems to me that in the natural setting for bees in a hollow tree, there are no screens. Thank you and good night !!


Except you’re not keeping honey bees in a hollow tree.


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## msl

> Except you’re not keeping honey bees in a hollow tree.


or there native environment, or in a natural setting


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## Richinbama

Hi brad, im a newbee here. Ive read all this thats posted. Allot of mixed emotions about this screened, or solid board. Seems like both have merits. I personally think I'll go with solid boards in my hives going in spring. Seems more natural in my view. In a wild hive, I don't see but one entrance, and in a hollow tree, there is usually a vent in the top of the hole/cavity in the hive/tree. I may be wrong, but just as I've observed. But I'm New. Also, aren't the interior of hives dark, and very hidden from the inside looking out? The bees view, I guess you'd say.. I'll go with solid board, after hearing all pros and cons here. Interesting topic, id also think that the bees nature of hive / colony is seclusion, so dark seems natural for this. As well as some form of natural protection from predators. ? Id like to see if my observations, opinons are stacking up, or am i missing anything important. ? Thanks, richard


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## Richinbama

Hi mike, i really like your bush farms page 😁 !!! Lots of valuabe info there. Im newbee, but i sat down and got a gameplan down tonight. At least a start. I like the idea of working out of all med. Supers. Standardizing makes tons of sense. Also, seems to me, to fill the boxes with brood would move faster going from bottom to top faster, and rotating the bottom brood box up after the brood hatches. ? Does this sound like your plan, a rotation of sorts? 3 boxes like this would have a pretty high pop, and the honey production would be very nice also. Does this seem like your idea,? as I perceived it.... also, with3 boxes of bees, swarm lreventiin would be something to watch, I'd suppose?? I got allot more reading to do on your site, but very interested in your methods so far, and wanting to learn more. Thanks a million, Richard Thomas


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## Richinbama

Isn't a hive sorta mimicking a natural hive? I mean, isn't that what a langstroth supposed to attempt to do? I'm New, and just asking... Thanks for your input, I got lots to learn, so I'll beat ya with questions, and my observations.... which may not be correct.. Thanks, Richard


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## Sharon Wise

You just answered my question. I installed a package of bees on Friday. All still looked well on Monday. Yesterday afternoon. They were gone. Wish I had seen this sooner. Why is it a problem?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Sharon Wise said:


> Why is it a problem?


Welcome to Beesource, Sharon!


Assuming you mean "why" do bees sometimes abscond from open screened bottom hives, most likely its a combination of factors.

First, lets note that there are _some_ partisans that argue that open screened bottoms are not the problem, its just a coincidence. 

In my opinion, new packages are less of a cohesive unit than an established hive. Package worker bees are not necessarily from the same original colony (before they were put in the package). They certainly don't 'know' their queen, except for the time in the package.

And, as noted by some posters earlier in this thread, the open bottom allows more light and airflow in the hive than in hives with a solid bottom (or a box with the screen closed off). Bees heavily rely on pheromones for communication, and excessive airflow may disrupt/impede such communication. Open screen bottoms impede the bees ability to thermo-regulate their brood nest.

So, in my opinion, its a number of individually (possibly small) factors, but when added together some new packages just decide that the conditions are not right, and decide to 'seek their fortune' elsewhere.


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## AR Beekeeper

Package bees absconding was a problem from the very beginning of bees through the mail. The Root company that pioneered package bees recommended that when hiving the package putting an excluder on the bottom board under the first hive body to keep the queen from leaving before starting to lay. This was before the use of screened bottom boards, so the problem is an old one.


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## Sharon Wise

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Welcome to Beesource, Sharon!
> 
> 
> Assuming you mean "why" do bees sometimes abscond from open screened bottom hives, most likely its a combination of factors.
> 
> First, lets note that there are _some_ partisans that argue that open screened bottoms are not the problem, its just a coincidence.
> 
> In my opinion, new packages are less of a cohesive unit than an established hive. Package worker bees are not necessarily from the same original colony (before they were put in the package). They certainly don't 'know' their queen, except for the time in the package.
> 
> And, as noted by some posters earlier in this thread, the open bottom allows more light and airflow in the hive than in hives with a solid bottom (or a box with the screen closed off). Bees heavily rely on pheromones for communication, and excessive airflow may disrupt/impede such communication. Open screen bottoms impede the bees ability to thermo-regulate their brood nest.
> 
> So, in my opinion, its a number of individually (possibly small) factors, but when added together some new packages just decide that the conditions are not right, and decide to 'seek their fortune' elsewhere.


Thank you. That makes a lot of sense.


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## Sharon Wise

Sharon Wise said:


> Thank you. That makes a lot of sense.


I am new here and I can't tell if my reply went through so I will try again. 

Hoping for some advice. I have a new package of bees arriving. I have changed back to a solid bottom board. I was wondering if you saw any problem with putting a queen excluder between the brood box and bottom board just until they get brood established. That way the queen cannot leave so they all stay, right?

Thanks,

Sharon


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## AR Beekeeper

That was the recommended solution to the absconding of packages given by the Root Company when package bees first began. It works most of the time, as do most beekeeping manipulations. After the queen has laid in constructed comb, and the eggs have hatched, the excluder can be removed. Most of the time open larvae will prevent bees from leaving a hive.


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## Sharon Wise

Thank you! I will try that. Don't want to lose another package of bees.


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## Robbin

DerTiefster said:


> About the third time I heard screened bottom boards described, I thought to myself, "Why not put a tray of oil (or soapy water) under that to kill anything the bees push out through the screen?" I later read of the Freeman Beetle Trap. I've only heard good things about it, and I use several. Seems to have all of the screened bottom board pluses and it seals up well at will to limit most other bad effects mentioned. The tray can be as opaque as you want, to keep the hive dark (black spray paint).
> 
> I see someone else has pointed to this example, also. Good. I still think that trap design is sound. I like the polyethylene (I think) trays used because they can seal pretty well against the base of the hive and address some of the over-ventilation issues others complain about.
> 
> Michael



I used SBB for years and found that the hives with SBB had fewer mites. Which may or may not have anything to do with the SBB. Thou I do remember a UF study that showed hives with SBB had fewer mites than Hives right next to them in the same yards. But Freeman Beetle Trap kill the heck out of SHB as well as mites that fall. 
I've got them on all my hives now.


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## Murdock

I think this is an issue with location. I use IPM boards but with oil pans underneath. I remove the pans for July and August but then they go back on to help control SHB, wax moths, and any varroa that want to go swimming.


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## JCAL

Hey guys I'm a new beginner and have two hives and waiting on my packages to arrive first of April. One hive has screened bottom board and the other is solid. The screened one has a slot to install a cover of some sort. Can I cut a piece of plywood to put in it to close it up?
Thanks for any input. Also what kind of feeder do you recommend? So many choices!!!


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## Michael Bush

>Can I cut a piece of plywood to put in it to close it up?

Or coroplast, or even temporarily a piece of cardboard...


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## Sour Kraut

thesecurityeagle said:


> And a frame of eggs/larvae are not a bad thing and if you don't have that some drawn empty comb sure does help.


Drawn comb and if you have a partial (or full) comb of honey from one that didn't survive the winter, put that in.

I know, I know.......someone is going to shout 'But The Disease Risk !!!'.......the usual cautions apply here. 

Of course, if you aren't aware of if a colony died of disease rather than failing queen, lack of size, etc rather than disease, maybe you need to learn how to diagnose that happened, a.k.a. do a Hive Autopsy.


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## Gray Goose

Earthboy said:


> "It doesn't matter how much "ventilation" you provide in hot weather - ventilation can NEVER reduce the hive temperature below the ambient air temperature. Since bees want their brood area temperature at 93-94 degrees F 24/7, and if its 99 F, outside, "ventilation" means that there will be a lot of 99 degree air flowing through the hive."
> 
> On a hot day when the bees on the wooden bottom are busy fanning, counter the number of them at the entrance, and then replace the wooden bottom with a screened one. Then counter the number of the fanning bees. Until you do this "scientific experiment," please spare me your "science."
> 
> Dr. Kim


So Dr. Kim, How do you count the bees on the bottom of the comb that are fanning? Did you worm your way under the hive and shine the flash light up there to count. the ones you see are not the only fanning bees with the SBB in.


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## Cloverdale

Rereading some of this thread...no one has mentioned one important fact regarding fanning; the bees bring in water for the inside of the hive so fanning this water will cool the hive somewhat due to evaporation, like our bodies sweat when hot and the sweat evaporates off our bodies and cools us. Deb


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## South Daytona

I’m a 2nd year novice and I’m in daytona beach. I had 2 hives die last year because of hive Beatles. I have used small beetle traps with some success. I still have the beetles though. I built a screen bottom board with the tray under neath where I’ve put vegetable oil. In 1 week I’ve killed about 20 beetles. So I moved the screen board trap to another hive and hopefully will get all those beetles also. My point is with screen bottom board screen is not the problem.
IMHO and I’m still learning


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## R_V

mineral oil like the cheap Equate Mineral Oil Lubricant Laxative @ walmart doesn't turn rancid like vegetable oil.


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## JWPalmer

It is clear that someone does not understand the concept of wet bulb temperature. That is the temperature that can be obtained through evaporative cooling. It is considerably lower than " ambient", depending on the relative humidity. The bees do understand this and use it to their advantage.


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## Michael Bush

>Hi mike, i really like your bush farms page &#55357;&#56833; !!! Lots of valuabe info there. 

Thanks.

>...seems to me, to fill the boxes with brood would move faster going from bottom to top faster, and rotating the bottom brood box up after the brood hatches. ?

Maybe.

> Does this sound like your plan, a rotation of sorts?

Not generally my plan. But if you have the time to spend (it's quite time consuming) you could age grade the hive and rotate the boxes. This plan has been put forth by Marla Spivak (she didn't claim to have invented it, but was proposing it) for queen rearing. The concept is to keep empty comb in front of the queen. So if you somewhat age grade a hive frame by frame and sort it into "stores", "open brood", "capped brood" and "empty comb". Then you can put the stores wherever you like (I like the bottom so I don't have to lift them as much) then an excluder on each side of the queen box and empty comb (with some kind of hole for the drones to escape). Then the open brood. Then the capped brood. Once a week you rotate the boxes so you put the top box (which was capped brood) with the queen above an excluder over the stores again. Then the box the queen was in which is now open brood next. Then the box that was open brood on top as capped brood. Then, in a flow, add supers above that. As they fill you can either harvest or move them to the bottom. If you do this every week the queen always has somewhere to lay and the brood is very age graded. This maximized the area the queen has to lay and once the process is underway you can mostly just juggle boxes.


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## Robert Holcombe

I agree with comment about Screened Bottom Boards With the sticky board installed or other board installed for warmth reasons. But, they are very useful. I can think of three reasons I use them. First, they are an easy way of counting dead drop varroa post treatment, especially when using OAV. Second is for robbing situations. I can easily close off an entrance with a wet towel and remove the bottom board for ventilation or use the gap between the board and screen for ventilation for along time. I do not use top vents / exits. Third use it provides a good visual indicator in winter about hive activity. I forgot about moving a hive. Strap it up and remove bottom board and move it. And then there is the event when the hive is being packed in snow or iced up entrance. Bottom air access, slight board adjustment provides a good ventilation path. Stick a pipe down underneath and you can bury the hive in snow (some bee keepers further North). Over time I will likely find more uses for this "tool".

I keep insulation on all winter and well into "summer". This year I will test it all summer too. Also, I just noticed the age of this thread.


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## little_john

Brad Bee said:


> Screened bottom boards were supposed to help with varroa mites but they don't. Then they're supposed to help with hive beetles but I don't think they do that based on the hives I've seen with ScBB's. If a beetle can fall through the screen it can gain entry to the hive through the screen as well. It's gotta work both ways.
> 
> Well, since the original 2 theories for using them have been debunked, in my mind at least now users want to say they help with ventilation. That's hogwash.


Original 2 theories ? I don't think so. A screened bottom board features in Langstroth's 1852 Patent - so it's hardly a 'fad' as someone had suggested earlier in this thread. It's incorporation was intended to provide a means of ventilation, controlled by means of a partial obstruction within the hard-bottomed shim - a method some of us have already adopted with success, and I suspect without prior knowledge of Langstroth's Patent. (I only read my own copy of his Patent earlier this week  )
LJ


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## spindrift99

I know this thread is pretty old, but for those who DO use SBBs (which I am currently planning to do), I just wanted to confirm how I use use the item below (for example). So, I would just use this as the bottom of my hive? Or, I could place this on top of a solid hive bottom? It shows the entrance reducer put on top, so I assume that's where I would place the reducer? 


https://www.mannlakeltd.com/10-frame-varroa-screened-with-drawer?list=Category Listing

Thx for any thoughts/support...


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## JWPalmer

Welcome spendrift99. Please tell us your location. The whole SBB vs a solid bottom board debate is like which is better, briefs or boxers. Personal preference more than anything. For the record, all my hives are on SBB. If I lived in Canada, they probably would not be.


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## Tigger19687

JWPalmer said:


> Welcome spendrift99. Please tell us your location. The whole SBB vs a solid bottom board debate is like which is better, briefs or boxers. Personal preference more than anything. For the record, all my hives are on SBB. If I lived in Canada, they probably would not be.


You forgot Commando


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## JWPalmer

I don't know that I would go without a bottom board at all. Might be a bit drafty.



For the bees


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## Murdock

All my 4 hives have SBB. I enlarged the area underneath to accept an oil pan for hive beetle management. I have an access panel at the rear of the hive so I can remove the pan and treat with OA anytime, like at night when it is cooler.


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## JWPalmer

My SBB are styled after the Brushy Mountain bottom boards. I leave the 3/4" side up all the time and simply slide a sheet of corroplast under the hive in the 3/8" wide space. ( does not apply to this design) The entrance reducer obviously only fits in the 3/4" wide gap but I turn mine so the entrance is at the bottom, not the top as is shown in the ML brochure. Hope this answers your question.


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## MichaelCfffg

My mentor, who has a lot of experience, says to use SBB with metal window screen in them, not the #8 HW cloth that is typical, and to leave them open all the time. I'm really confused now after reading most of this thread. SMH


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## hockeyfan_019

Murdock said:


> All my 4 hives have SBB. I enlarged the area underneath to accept an oil pan for hive beetle management. I have an access panel at the rear of the hive so I can remove the pan and treat with OA anytime, like at night when it is cooler.


My hives I have done something very similar with good results, but left the oil tray and inspection board out in summer for better ventilation. But, several hives tended to cluster underneath at night, so I though it was a bit weird... This year I will keep the oil trays in most of the time, keep the inspection panels closed 100%, and I'll be putting a 1-1/2" slatted rack above the bottom screen. The I can keep the appropriate bees space under the lowest frames, and it'll give the guards and workers a better place to hang out at during the night. BTW I have only seen the occasional SHB in the pan or in my "beetle blaster" oil traps, so something must be working OK.

Finally, I am told that a key thing for prevention of SHB is to make sure the soil/etc under your hives is essentially impenetrable. Apparently the SHB larvae fall out of the hive eventually and dig into the soil to pupate, afterward they will emerge as new adults. I put a layer of 30# felt paper under all my hive stands, so I know any larvae aren't going to be burrowing through that. If you make it a bit bigger coverage than your hive stands = no weed whipping necessary either, and it minimizes any "grass ant bridges"


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## hockeyfan_019

MichaelCfffg said:


> My mentor, who has a lot of experience, says to use SBB with metal window screen in them, not the #8 HW cloth that is typical, and to leave them open all the time. I'm really confused now after reading most of this thread. SMH


Apparently if you use #8 on your screened bottoms, and there is any way to get under them from outside, the beetles can just climb in from underneath through the mesh. So, I presume that may be the idea, to keep out SHM from coming in via the basement. Not sure if varroa can fall though the window screen though, ideally you'd like a screen that was small enough to keep SHM out, but let stray mites fall though if they drop off from above in the combs.


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## JWPalmer

The whole "window screen keeps the the SHB out" sounds good in theory, but in my opinion, it is wishful thinking. SHB simply fly in through the front door unimpeded. And, the widow screen mesh is so small that debris do not fall through it, so you lose one of the reasons SBB are beneficial to some. As you become a beekeeper, you will have an opportunity to determine for yourself which arguments for or against SBB are valid in your climate. The bees will do fine either way.


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## hockeyfan_019

JWPalmer said:


> The whole "window screen keeps the the SHB out" sounds good in theory, but in my opinion, it is wishful thinking. SHB simply fly in through the front door unimpeded. And, the widow screen mesh is so small that debris do not fall through it, so you lose one of the reasons SBB are beneficial to some. As you become a beekeeper, you will have an opportunity to determine for yourself which arguments for or against SBB are valid in your climate. The bees will do fine either way.


Although I am certainly still evaluating some of the SBB benefits and drawbacks, I can absolutely verify the comment regarding debris. Even with #8 on the bottom (so larger holes than door screen) lots of debris gets trapped, and creates a layer of debris that is harder to drag out than if it was just a solid bottom. Cleaning them off is tougher too, since the debris tends to stick to the screen more than it would to a wooden bottom. I turned mine upside down and brushed them from the bottom side with a long-handled stuff brush, but a little honey and a little wax results in a big mess. At least with a solid bottom you can just scrape them out with a putty knife or a hive tool. 2 minutes and you are done.

The more I work with this stuff the more I can appreciate the simpler things. My initial plans were usually to try new concepts to develop new ways to theoretically reduce labor and improve conditions, but I'm finding that the added up-front complication and time might be better time spent of just managing things the easiest way possible with just a bit of extra labor in the hives. That way, you can just keep cranking out more "standard" equipment, and the time spent you are sure is being beneficial. Just keep managing the colonies you have the best you can, keep splitting, and if you are doing a good job you will wind up ahead.

Perhaps with superior innovation you can manage a small number of hives to be really healthy. But, with less innovation and more sweat equity, perhaps you can spend the time to split more and create more colonies, in which more ultimately survive, which consequently may also be genetically superior (forced survival of the fittest). So eventually, the more colonies strategy may win out over the "innovative" strategy. I'm smart enough to know that lots of people smarter than me have been raising bees since antiquity, and if there was a singe "best way" that always works perfect, everbody would have already adopted it. Seems like I may need to rethink some of my earlier strategy, and consider the advice from the more experienced more closely


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## Gray Goose

spindrift99 said:


> I know this thread is pretty old, but for those who DO use SBBs (which I am currently planning to do), I just wanted to confirm how I use use the item below (for example). So, I would just use this as the bottom of my hive? Or, I could place this on top of a solid hive bottom? It shows the entrance reducer put on top, so I assume that's where I would place the reducer?
> 
> 
> https://www.mannlakeltd.com/10-frame-varroa-screened-with-drawer?list=Category Listing
> 
> Thx for any thoughts/support...


The concern is the bees perceive the screen as open, air and light come thru. They will have to guard this "giant opening" At times they decide to just find a better place. This has most impact at installation of swarm or package. Once bees are there, IMO like the frog in the boiling pot they will tolerate the opening. I agree in the north they are perhaps not optimal, FYI ALL my SBB died out this past winter. Maybe the SBB had no impact but I am discontinuing them. Today it is in the 20s with 20 MPH winds, I know the bees have brood, so maybe too much draft sometimes as well. I see the spray you can put on screen to close it off "flex seal" I may close of 90% and use them for "extras"

Use what works the best for your locale, each is a bit different.
GG


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## John Davis

Billdean
Vaporizing through the bottom screen can cause a lot of the crystals to plate out on the screen and not make it into the hive. The screen metal acts as a heat sink, the vapors cool and the crystals reform on the screen instead of being spread throughout the hive.
This is one of the reasons some beeks report OAV not performing as it should if correctly applied.
Unless you look under the hive you may not realize this happens.


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## Cloverdale

I really like using screened bb with a drawer. I do not have hive beetles, I think because I dont buy bees anymore; It shows me what is going on in the hive and I use it for IPM. This year I am going to use 2 drone frames in each top brood box and rotate them out with others for varroa control every 20+ days. Before putting them in the hive cutout any big drone comb areas that might have mites then put these in. This is for control. You can monitor drone dropping on the drawers. In the early Spring I can see by the debris if they are eating honey or not.


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## deemann1

Here 90 percent of beekeepers now use sbb as to the comments of bees abscondind due to the fact the hive has a sbb ( load of tosh ) never heard of this been an issue..
The most important thing with a sbb is to have no other type of ventilation in hive when over wintering as it will cause a chimney effect.


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## Murdock

My oil pans stay in place all year except for July & August when its over 90 degrees, I have black rubber mats under the hives (on the ground) to reduce light reflection. Absconding has never been a problem and the pans catch anything that the bees chase thru the screen. I use OAV and crack the top to see the vapor move up then close the top. My bee yard is closed with a solid fence on the two windward sides. It all works for me in my area.


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## Robert Holcombe

Brad Bee said:


> I agree with the first part of that statement Vance but don't know enough stats to know if I agree with the second part. I just don't see what the draw to them is.
> 
> I always get a chuckle out of people up north posting that they use them because of the heat in the summer. LOL I reckon it doesn't get hot enough here in the deep south for me to need them.


I agree with you about keeping them closed or bottom sticky board in place. Especially when starting up a package or a nuc. I keep them closed year round. I also insulate all year. I open them when moving a hive, maybe on a real hot day in the fog, when counting dead mites, reading the entrance activity and junk on the bottom board. I like the versatility. I will be building a new bottom board "box" soon with increased functions to go with my other crazy ideas - mostly suitable for backyard stuff and winter.


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## joebeewhisperer

Disclaimer: I totally don't know what I am doing. 

I've been evaluating Poly but that's an entirely different thread (somewhere). As far my few hives I have SBB on all of them. Never had a package abscond, although I had an absconsion in year 2 (if memory serves). A friend (who runs 100-120) tells me the light thing is a big deal, and it's possible. If I have a queen laying wood to wood, top to bottom it's usually on a frame in the second box. I mainly have screens because when I decided to get back into it that's what was in the kit my wife and kids bought me (5 Christmases ago). 

The only solid bottom I have has some Ultra-Bee in it and an outer cover over it, sitting on the trunk of an old Volvo in my field (Southern thing). This year I have installed temp sensors in several hives and it's for this reason that I'm thinking I might buy some solids. The Russian literature said that the bees consumed 20% more resources with screened. Also said there was no appreciable difference in consumption with a 1" blue board on top regardless of bottom. 

I sat the aforementioned hive kit up on an OSB board slightly bigger than the hive. It used staples and my blocks were too close together. This allowed the bottom of the screened board to spread as it was not technically resting exactly on block. I ended up screwing it to the OSB to avoid any additional spreading (in year 4). I think the flimsiness of the screened allowed it to yield more so than a solid would have done. But this was 100% my fault for not realizing that 150lbs was not going to last on this setup as is forever. 

If I continue with wooden hives, I will likely try some solids this next year. I hived 6-7 swarms close to the yard this year, caged the queen for a few hours (fried one putting her over the top bar on a ProNuc). Most I dropped in EZ Nucs. I scraped a lot of pollen sub and scraps out of these when I went to poly. This would have fallen through a screen, but they were small in number and I kept putting more crud in their house than they had time to clean. A strong colony in a 8-10 frame would have kept the bottom much tidier.


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## BeePrepared

Brad Bee said:


> Every year, EVERY year, every YEAR, there are multiple posts on beesource saying to the effect, "I installed my package of bees and they absconded."
> 
> If you feel like you must use a screened bottom board, KEEP IT CLOSED UP AT LEAST UNTIL THE HIVE IS RAISING BROOD.
> 
> I'm not going to try and pursuade you from using screened bottom boards, I'll just say I don't see a need for them. Use what you want, but keep them closed up.
> 
> If the mods do not care, I'll bump this post up every week or so in hopes of saving someone a package or two of bees.


Thank you for this post, Brad! You’ve more than likely just saved me a lot of money and unnecessary loss of the entire season. To me, a first year beekeeper this information is gold. If you even think about getting tired of posting this for newbies, don’t. I bet many won’t admit it but it saves the entire endeavor.


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## JWPalmer

As a SBB user, I agree with leaving the insert in until after the colony is established. I really only have mine out during the summer months when the temps are in the 90's and the entrances are reduced to prevent robbing.


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## massbee

This is a fascinating thread. I have had open screened bottoms for 17 years. I have never had a package abscond and I’ve never had new bees from a package cluster in the bottom as if they don’t know where to go.


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## Gray Goose

massbee said:


> This is a fascinating thread. I have had open screened bottoms for 17 years. I have never had a package abscond and I’ve never had new bees from a package cluster in the bottom as if they don’t know where to go.


never had Abscond "YET"



GG


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## massbee

17 years.


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## Gray Goose

massbee said:


> 17 years.


Sweet
The force is with you.

GG


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## joebeewhisperer

You guys made me giggle. Thanks, I needed a laugh.


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## n8app155

joebeewhisperer said:


> You guys made me giggle. Thanks, I needed a laugh.


We use a ipm bottom board we insert the board in the winter.


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## jbeshearse

A couple of thoughts. For reference, I am in NW Florida. Screened bottom board offer a couple of advantages over solid bottom boards. Heat and ventilation are one. Of course bees can manage both regardless of the type of bottom board. However, a screened bottom board will allow for moisture and condensation to exit the hive better than a solid bottom. Also, any small hive beetle larva, wax moth larva and varroa mites will drop through the screened bottom board and exit the hive whereas the solid bottom board does not offer the same advantage. I have also found that when moving bees which requires closing the hive up, a screened bottom board relieve me of worrying about overheating the bees. Lastly and this is to me the most important advantage of screened bottom boards in my local: the levelness of the hive is not as big of a deal. If you have the hive slightly off level, any rain water (or condensation) will fall out of the screened bottom, where in the solid bottom it will accumulate causing box rot and will slow the drying of the nectar. Which results in the need for more boxes for the bees to dry the honey. This results in less finished honey per season other issues. Just my studied opinion. That said, I run both. In my area, west style Small hive beetle traps perform the best as as such, effectively are solid bottom boards. SHB are more of an issue than varroa or moisture.


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## drummerboy

1. Bees know best, meaning they know how to ventilate and remove excess moisture from their homes much better than we do.

2. Both heat and condensation rise, so the opinion that SBB assist with its removal is not science based.

3. Opinions are the wilderness between knowledge and ignorance.

4. All beekeeping is local. What might work in one region may be detrimental somewhere else.

5. Humans overthink and worry too much, Bees just get to work and adapt to the conditions we place upon them.


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## crofter

Location, location, location!


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## little_john

drummerboy said:


> 2. * Both heat and condensation rise*, so the opinion that SBB assist with its removal is not science based.


Have you never seen early morning ground mist blanketing low-lying ground - until warmth from the sun 'burns it off' ?

Two points to consider: when water evaporates within a beehive, it becomes chilled. Such cooled moist air is denser than the air around it, and so it will fall. Providing it's passage is not restriced, it will pass out of the hive through the open bottom. However, if it's passage is blocked, it will remain within the hive and gradually become warmed until it reaches ambient temperature, at which point it will begin to ascend.
Because of this dynamic - *either* an Open Mesh Floor (SBB) *or *a solid floor with an upper vent will successfully eliminate moisture from within a beehive in the absence of active fanning by bees.

A second point is that water vapour is a gaseous state, and all gases attempt to mix with one another though the process of diffusion - that is, they will expand and spread throughout all other gases present until they reach a state of equilibrium. In contrast however, but only under still conditions, heavy gases - such as Carbon Dioxide - have a tendency to descend due to the force of gravity upon their molecular weight.
LJ


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## drummerboy

little_john said:


> Have you never seen early morning ground mist blanketing low-lying ground - until warmth from the sun 'burns it off' ?
> 
> Two points to consider: when water evaporates within a beehive, it becomes chilled. Such cooled moist air is denser than the air around it, and so it will fall. Providing it's passage is not restriced, it will pass out of the hive through the open bottom. However, if it's passage is blocked, it will remain within the hive and gradually become warmed until it reaches ambient temperature, at which point it will begin to ascend.
> Because of this dynamic - *either* an Open Mesh Floor (SBB) *or *a solid floor with an upper vent will successfully eliminate moisture from within a beehive in the absence of active fanning by bees.
> 
> A second point is that water vapour is a gaseous state, and all gases attempt to mix with one another though the process of diffusion - that is, they will expand and spread throughout all other gases present until they reach a state of equilibrium. In contrast however, but only under still conditions, heavy gases - such as Carbon Dioxide - have a tendency to descend due to the force of gravity upon their molecular weight.
> LJ


Sure, I can agree with all that.....But, the difference is when a colony of bees are occupying that space and doing what they need to do to keep themselves comfortable, despite our intrusions.

Let's just leave it to "different strokes for different folks" 

In Northern Wisconsin our bees have a 4-5 month brood break. SBB and upper entrances? Been there, done that already, and while our bees sometimes made it through a Winter they were 'over-worked' keeping the box we put them in comfortable and warm. 

We have steadily evolved our way of keeping bees over the last 20 years, that is more conducive to their survival 'locally'.... it is still on-going. 

That's the thing about evolution, it never stops, never gets static, always changing and adapting. We have completely eliminated SBB and Top Entrances...feeling that both made our bees work harder than they needed or wanted.


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## JimD

I can remember when screened BB's were the fad and they have pros and cons for me cons.
I am North of Houston and like Florida it is a long warm season.

I do not use BB's here because *of Mosquito spray in the subdivision.* I did a split last month for my daughter that wants bees and I had the prefect hive that had just swarmed and had 12-14 capped queen cells on two frames. I did take a few minutes to make sure the two deeps were close to even. One closed bb and the other an old screened bb.

The hives sit right at 100 yards from the street and the Mosquito truck came thru and sprayed. 
No harm to the closed BB hive I split it again this week into two deeps in a walk away.

This spray killed the screened hive. Less than 24 hrs the open BB hive started to die. Bees running off the BB and falling to the ground. First I thought it was a robbing problem and put on robbing screens but nothing worked and less than a week later the closed bb hive was going great guns and the open bb hive had dead bees all in the screen and there were hundreds of dead bees on the hive bottom. Even the capped brood did not make it. I had to dump the bees, cut the comb off the foundation and washed all the equipment multiple times. A lot of resurces lost to cut off a deep and med boxes of honey, wax, brood. I did a bag and threw it all away because I could not find what they were spraying.

We have discussed this on the board with all sorts of weird suggestions but if you split the same hive and one is taking off and the other is dying by afternoon it is pretty obvious what happened.

A few years ago I got back into town late and had a swarm of bees on one of the hives that just moved up to the top of the hive under the over hang that I use. Strong swarm and I figured the queen could not fly and since it was late I would just go out and box them early the next morning. The subdivision sprayer came thru and I found two large shoe boxes of dead bees on the ground at the front of the hive where the bees were outside the hive. The bees in the hive were doing fine and not exposed. I usually run two or three hives and have for over 35 years for fun and give the honey away.

I will not use screened BB's for that reason. I do have some holes cut in the supers that are covered with 1/8 screen and regular screen to add ventilation for the hives and will use a stick to crack the the hive top too. 

Makes you realize just how strong the mosquito spray is to kill bees and 100 yards.


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## Lefty W

Mike Gillmore said:


> Very good advice.
> 
> There must be a reason you feel so strongly about this.


Very new here, how do you feed them if you don't open it?


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## JustBees

Why do Beeks feel the need to make venting adjustments for a bug that has a fan on it's back?
The European Honey bee that is not a native to North America, *PREFERS* a tropical climate, *much warmer than humans prefer*.
To me a screened bottom board is like leaving the trap door down on your jammies.


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