# 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator



## GregB

Nothing but 6-frame boxes/medum-size frame (shallow Dadants, technically).
(I guess, he still uses some deeps in the very bottom box - in that case they winter in a single Dadant 6-frame box + an empty super below optionally).

Another version of pure by-the-box approach. 
No frame-by-frame futzing about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D8obDyxy24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG4re3G2Y2c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlKMDFnZ350

Full collection:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCms6NHuFUqhJ3C6E1x6qmQ/videos


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## crofter

Greg;

I wish you could link us to a Russian~English voice to voice app! I mostly gathered from the fellows knitted brows that this method is really a headache!:scratch: I think I missed a lot. 

I would like to actually understand his explanation. That corner joint detail of the boxes and bottom boards is a neat arrangement.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> Greg;
> 
> I wish you could link us to a Russian~English voice to voice app! I mostly gathered from the fellows knitted brows that this method is really a headache!:scratch: I think I missed a lot.
> 
> I would like to actually understand his explanation. That corner joint detail of the boxes and bottom boards is a neat arrangement.


Frank, I am not aware of the "Russian~English voice to voice app" (just not needed for me).
I will give a quick Google.



> this method is really a headache


The more I observe the compact ways - the more I like it.
Those who run the compact verticals have one simple response - just try it for yourself and be honest about it (and learn a little too) - THEN come back and comment.

The 6-framer way has one obvious benefit - standard frame reuse (as much as I like the square models - in theory).

The most important argument - here we are observing a real, volume honey producer, totally mobile - he runs totally from the trailers and does not "BS" around.
He is always on the go to his next honey pasture.
He is the "efficiency" and has very little tolerance for futzing about.

Most all problems of 10/12 frame equipment he does not understand because he does not have those problems.

I like the 6-frame config because the box amounts to 3-full size frames again.
The same as my envisioned 9-frame config (which would amount to the same 3-full size frames per a box) BUT no need for a custom frame.

(I just watched another episode about - "how do you get the bees to come up onto the honey supers" - his response - what is the problem again? I don't have that problem - you stack the supers as needed and call it done and bees just get into them - the beauty of a compact vertical).


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## GregB

crofter said:


> Greg;
> 
> ..... That corner joint detail of the boxes and bottom boards is a neat arrangement.


One of the standards anymore with the mobile beeks - the peg-hives.
I got few ideas for me.


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## GregB

The channel owner takes apart a couple of his 6-framers (no preps/no setups - just as-is).
He has not looked inside yet since the last year.

He is doing it because the channel subscribers asked for a demo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXxKjSqDEbM


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## GregB

Another version of the same - 6-framers.
Very cool ergonomic setup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFAIS1VWJqE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pph5TQiCCe8


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## GregB

True noney road-warriors based on 6-framers.
Gypsy-beekeepers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrJgFHV-BvM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLQ6hRgM43o


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## MattDavey

crofter said:


> Greg;
> 
> I wish you could link us to a Russian~English voice to voice app! I mostly gathered from the fellows knitted brows that this method is really a headache!:scratch: I think I missed a lot.
> 
> I would like to actually understand his explanation. That corner joint detail of the boxes and bottom boards is a neat arrangement.



On the Youtube Video, click on the "CC" icon to turn on Close Captions (Subtitles). Then on the "Settings" icon go to: Subtitles -> Auto Translate -> English


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## crofter

MattDavey said:


> On the Youtube Video, click on the "CC" icon to turn on Close Captions (Subtitles). Then on the "Settings" icon go to: Subtitles -> Auto Translate -> English


Thanks, I will give that a try.


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## msl

MattDavey said:


> On the Youtube Video, click on the "CC" icon to turn on Close Captions (Subtitles). Then on the "Settings" icon go to: Subtitles -> Auto Translate -> English


game changer!!!!
thank you so much


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## GregB

MattDavey said:


> On the Youtube Video, click on the "CC" icon to turn on Close Captions (Subtitles). Then on the "Settings" icon go to: Subtitles -> Auto Translate -> English


Thanks.
I was not aware - will verify and see.


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## GregB

GregV said:


> Thanks.
> I was not aware - will verify and see.


Checked - auto-translate is satisfactory, when in a pinch.

I'll try it out when watching some Spanish videos.

Just get used to the word "uterus".
Computer is not smart enough to realize that the video is about beekeeping.

*Uterus == Queen* (in the beekeeping videos translated from Russian/Ukrainian).
*Матка* - is the same word used as "uterus" or "bee queen", context dependent.


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## crofter

I dont know whether we in Canada get a different homepage for Youtube, but anyways I cant find the clickable landmark Matt describes. Can't get to square one.:s


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## msl

I have found some videos have it like this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLQ6hRgM43o

and outhers like this one don't
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFAIS1VWJqE


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## little_john

Late in on this thread, but must say that I'm well impressed when seeing HUGE numbers of 'nuc-sized' boxes on a flat-bed trailer which indicates to me that there's some serious honey-farming involved. So - cannot understand why there are reports of some beekeepers scoffing at the idea of using this size of box. If something works, then it works ...

Excellent info about the Russian auto-translate - HUGE THANKS - as it turns meaningless (to me) utterings into an overall guide-line of what the guy is talking about. A real game-changer. Pity it only works in real-time and not with saved videos, but heck - can't have everything. 
LJ


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## MattDavey

crofter said:


> I dont know whether we in Canada get a different homepage for Youtube, but anyways I cant find the clickable landmark Matt describes. Can't get to square one.:s


It is on the bottom right of videos on the Desktop version of YouTube.

On the Mobile/Tablet version it is under the three vertical dots (settings) icon at the top right.

This is good timing. I was considering what size Nuc boxes I should standardize on. Have a six frame Nuc box from a friend I'm raising a queen for at the moment and I like it.

I'm also thinking you could have a 10 frame Brood box with 6 frame Supers. If put on one side you would have access to 3 frames in the Brood box without having to take apart the hive!


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## crofter

MattDavey said:


> It is on the bottom right of videos on the Desktop version of YouTube.
> 
> On the Mobile/Tablet version it is under the three vertical dots (settings) icon at the top right.
> 
> !


Thanks; found it now. Loses something in the translation but helps a lot!


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## GregB

little_john said:


> ......So - cannot understand why there are reports of some beekeepers scoffing at the idea of using this size of box. If something works, then it works ...
> 
> LJ


People can argue until blue (especially IF already invested heavily in something AND especially IF no hard evidence is really available, just anecdotes).
BUT - seeing is believing.


This guy is a real deal.
I highly recommend scanning through all of his vids (just for the context).

ALSO - the guy is really on a young side - I am just making the point I made before - experience is NOT everything.
In fact, too much experience is often a liability (just the same as too much investment, only time investment).


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## GregB

little_john said:


> Late in on this thread, but must say that I'm well impressed when seeing HUGE numbers of 'nuc-sized' boxes on a flat-bed trailer which indicates to me that there's some serious honey-farming involved. ........
> LJ


The guy is a serious road warrior.
His self-customized rig takes on 100 6-frame units (50 on each side).
Each unit can go up to 12 boxes (before hitting the roof).
It takes a heavy diesel truck to pull the setup (he is a heck of a driver too).

In addition, he lags along entire honey extracting shop and does everything on the go.
Unsure yet, it maybe an additional vehicle is a part of his caravan. 
Pretty sure so because they must have some run-about vehicle.

I got pretty good context from his vids.
The longest trip he did in the season 2019 - something over 1000 kilometers one way.
Basically, there is this whole culture of mobile beekeepers that follow the flows around the region..

PS: while many of us do not approve of the mobile, commercial beekeeping for the related issues - this guys is brilliant in many ways, regardless; 
he needs to make his living somehow and that is what he does;
he did talk in one of the vids how brutal his regiment is (lots of bees lost due to potentially very short stops).


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## GregB

Few short points about the guy - "пчеловод дальнобойщик".

He is based in a very mild region of Russia, Krasnodar region - about USDA Zone 7.
(which allows for very light hive construction and wintering in them as-is).

He winters his bees directly on his mobile rigs - exactly as they are setup.

He winters them in a single box (on full Dadant frames); 
the bottom 1-2 boxes are on full-sized Dadant frames;
one box in winter; 2 boxes in summer;
he winters on any number of frames - up to 6 and down to 3 - to ensure good density;

He does not feed at all - the late flows brought into the reduced bottom boxes sets them up well.

He practices the QX going into the flows (not until then).
The QX limits the queen to the 6 bottom frames - sufficient for the support through the summer - he does not need many bees (he says) - he needs a LOT of honey (not bees).
The initial spring expansion is done only ONCE and downward (resulting in two brood boxes temporarily).

So yes - 6 full Dadant frames allocated for the brooding are sufficient to support the foraging force through the summer - which also ensures the too much resources are not wasted on brood raising.

He only practices the bottom entrance AND insists on this method (this is forcing all the traffic through the brood nest by design).
The bottoms are meshed and well ventilated.
The top is well insulated (about R10) and NOT ventilated.

Honey supers are continuously added to the top when they are 60-70% filled with the bees and the frames are reasonably full.
No box switching is needed - bees just flood the supers as soon as the supers are added.
No need to wait for honey to capped before adding more supers - this only means you are missing a portion of the crop.
The supers must be continuously added to ensure that ALL nectar is taken in.


There is a stationary base at home too - for the support queens and backup units - for recovery reasons.
(mating on this mobile rig is impossible - queens get lost due to confusion and mating almost always fails - he said so).


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## mgolden

"Each unit can go up to 12 boxes (before hitting the roof)."

Above probably explains the reason for 6 framers. Working 35 pound supers of honey off of a?step ladder, twelve supers high would be a good workout!


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## GregB

mgolden said:


> "Each unit can go up to 12 boxes (before hitting the roof)."
> 
> Above probably explains the reason for 6 framers. Working 35 pound supers of honey off of a?step ladder, twelve supers high would be a good workout!


It is not a reason, it is a feature.

He did try running 10-frame poli-hives on his trailer.
Was terrible, reportedly.
Imagine working with full-size deep boxes on the trailer - it is a no-go.


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## GregB

On average he is running one set of 6 Dadant frames (the excluded brood nest) and 7 honey supers.
Here is a brood nest inspection in July.
6 brood frames (fully utilized) is sufficient.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FRfW5ZkGbg

Pretty sure he said someplace he averages 50kilos from a unit (100-110lbs).
One very full honey super is about 10 kilos (20 lbs).


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## little_john

Hi Greg.

I found myself reading an account yesterday of the controversy which developed between Heddon - who favoured a contracted 5-frame broodnest - and Dadant who, in contrast, championed a very large size, so as to maximise the queen's output.

One of Heddon's claims was that pollen (in the form of stored bee-bread) was best left out in the field, so as to maximise both brood and honey production within the hive itself.

I noticed during the Russian 6-frame inspection that all were very impressive brood combs, and other videos display equally impressive honey combs - but I cannot remember seeing much in the way of stored pollen. I'm sure that guy's area must be very rich in pollen, so this may not be an issue for his particular operation, but I've been wondering whether he has had anything specific to say about pollen storage ?

Heddon was the first to invent (what he called) the 'queen-excluding honey board', initially made from strips of wood suitably spaced apart, and which were primarily intended to be placed between the brood box and the supers (which he was using for section honey production). However, it appears that his contracted broodnest provoked swarming, as he took to placing his queen excluder under the brood box as well, in order to confine the queen and thus prevent swarming.

Again, does this Russian guy have anything to say about the issue of swarming, and any steps he takes to avoid this ?

Sorry to burden you Greg, but this system of beekeeping looks to be very attractive indeed, and I can see me incorporating at least some of these ideas into my own operation, and so I'd like to identify any 'negatives' it might have as early as possible, so as to take steps to avoid them (if I can).
'best
LJ


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## GregB

little_john said:


> Hi Greg.
> 
> I found myself reading an account yesterday of the controversy which developed between Heddon - who favoured a contracted 5-frame broodnest - and Dadant who, in contrast, championed a very large size, so as to maximise the queen's output.
> 
> One of Heddon's claims was that pollen (in the form of stored bee-bread) was best left out in the field, so as to maximise both brood and honey production within the hive itself.
> 
> I noticed during the Russian 6-frame inspection that all were very impressive brood combs, and other videos display equally impressive honey combs - but I cannot remember seeing much in the way of stored pollen. I'm sure that guy's area must be very rich in pollen, so this may not be an issue for his particular operation, but I've been wondering whether he has had anything specific to say about pollen storage ?
> 
> Heddon was the first to invent (what he called) the 'queen-excluding honey board', initially made from strips of wood suitably spaced apart, and which were primarily intended to be placed between the brood box and the supers (which he was using for section honey production). However, it appears that his contracted broodnest provoked swarming, as he took to placing his queen excluder under the brood box as well, in order to confine the queen and thus prevent swarming.
> 
> Again, does this Russian guy have anything to say about the issue of swarming, and any steps he takes to avoid this ?
> 
> Sorry to burden you Greg, but this system of beekeeping looks to be very attractive indeed, and I can see me incorporating at least some of these ideas into my own operation, and so I'd like to identify any 'negatives' it might have as early as possible, so as to take steps to avoid them (if I can).
> 'best
> LJ


LJ, all good questions.

Pollen - interestingly, the guy addressd the issue specifically in some context

So, he runs a very compressed broodnest -the queen is limited to just 6 deep Dadants at all times.
(outside of ONE-TIME expansion in spring when he pulls 4 frames of brood UP and replaces those with 4 new frames DOWN - once per a season move).
Most any average queen keeps those 6 frames completely full of brood - bar to a bar - most of the season.
The bees put some pollen into those frames, but very limited because the queen vigorously competes for those same cells.

Overall, he stated - in his operation the bees immediately eat the pollen they bring in. 
Very little stored over summer. There is some, but not much.
Also, he is based in a mild region where the very first pollen flow starts even in February - so running into pollen dearth during the spring expansion is not a problem for him - there is enough ongoing pollen flow for him.
Also, the very last flows (September/October?) do get stored in the brood chamber (along with the late pollen) - as queen is slowing down, she competes less for the cells - the foragers finally get the upper hand in the brood nest and pack it enough for the short winter.

LJ, as of me - I have much colder/longer winter and very cold/long/unstable spring.
I see myself wintering on a double-stack of 6-frame batteries; that for me should allow for more long-term pollen stores.
In short, I see myself running the brood in 6-over-6 mode (NOT 12 single-level per classic Dadant and yet the same capacity).
Exact same volume - more ergonomic setup for both me and the bees.
Or maybe 6 deeps-over-6 shallows (total capacity of 9 Dadants).


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## GregB

> Again, does this Russian guy have anything to say about the issue of swarming, and any steps he takes to avoid this ?


The guys has been laughing at lots of comments/questions about this exact issue.
No swarming problems AS ANTICIPATED by many.
He commented how the 10-frame based mobile beeks often chase the swarms on their foraging stops (or just let the swarms go).
He does not have the issue and can focus on this honey production instead.

ONE-TIME vertical spring expansion DOWN - done *proactively *does it all.
He calls it the "expansion down" - his term (see the picture).

You can see that this expansion allows for MORE brood during the spring expansion - up to TEN frames.
But afterwards - there is NEVER more than 6 brood frames present - this is sufficient and actually desired for the honey production focused colonies.

The schematics of it:







If done correctly, you should see the Russian letter "Г", that represents the final positions of the old frames after the "expansion down".
This letter represent the "expansion down" which allegedly prevents swarming urges very well for our guy on his 6-framers.

I do picture a very simple idea - on the foot-print of a single 12-frame square Dadant (with its monster weight) you run TWO 6-frame units with TWO queens (just stacked side-by-side and strapped together if needed).
You manage them autonomously; the bee density is always high, including early spring; the both queens work in optimal mode (actually they are NOT overworked).
Seems to me a pair of 6-frame unit will beat down a single 12-frame unit in most any way imaginable - *on the same exact foot-print.*
This includes the human ergonomics too.


I did not forget - you asked about another 6-frame operation video where there was apparently NO QX in use.
LJ, I don't know, I have not found an answer.

The mobile guy does depend on QXs.
BUT, once he mentioned how he forgot to install a QX - the queen then laid UP as high as 4-5 boxes, BUT only in the middle TWO frames in each box.
If you a commercial guy and must work by a box and do so very quickly - that is a NO-GO for him.
Also, this could mean more brood that you really want (the brood quickly goes beyond the 6 original frames and up to 10-12 frames then).
As this guy stated repeatedly - he wants *more honey*, he *does not want more bees*.
And he gets exactly that ALL season long - starting with the very early flows from the fruit trees and locust (none of the continuous and long and expensive build-up in anticipation of some "main flow" - which may never come).

BUT, if you are not under constant time pressure - you can consolidate the nest down at your own pace if so desired OR the bees will do it for you anyway (just will take longer).


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## GregB

LJ, you gonna like these.

Though a 7-framer - already feels a bit heavy as for me.
Maybe a bit over-engineered to my taste.
Still cool.

If you'll ask - what are those custom small frames?
Those are from his mating nucs.
It is a mating nuc dump (after the queen sales and such).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8czVT1Rr78
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkqaudwbCSI


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## little_john

GregV said:


> LJ, *you gonna like these.*
> 
> Though a 7-framer - already feels a bit heavy as for me.
> Maybe a bit over-engineered to my taste.
> Still cool.


Spot on  Good links, thanks.

I agree - a tad over-engineered - but still great fun. It's really good to see what other people (and from a different culture) can come up with.

I've noticed that a lot of Russian guys prefer the style of box with 4x battens (2 at each end) projecting downwards - called 'Horns', I think ?
Not seen over here, but I know you like that type of box.
'best
LJ


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## GregB

little_john said:


> Spot on  Good links, thanks.
> 
> I agree - a tad over-engineered - but still great fun. It's really good to see what other people (and from a different culture) can come up with.
> 
> *I've noticed that a lot of Russian guys prefer the style of box with 4x battens (2 at each end) projecting downwards - called 'Horns', I think ?*
> Not seen over here, but I know you like that type of box.
> 'best
> LJ


Yes, over-engineered.
The "Horn" hives are supposed to be stupid simple and dirt cheap.
That is the main premise of them.

Yeah, those "Horns" a recent invention of an Ukrainian commercial, mobile beekeeper by the name Palivoda.
He created this new equipment style based on some cheap storage boxes he provisioned somewhere.
He kept the "horns" as they were designed-in onto the storage boxes (whatever the boxes were for originally - but that box locking style is used by the military that I am aware).
The idea being, he was not spending his hard earned money on expensive equipment - instead repurposed his equipment from the stuff he found.

The "Horns" are in vogue big time now (not even needed sometimes, functionally).
They are really meant for the mobile operators - keep the boxes together when transporting.

I'd call them "pegs", as in "peg hive".
I run multiple yards, I am too a mobile operator, just of a micro-scale.
Unfortunately, moving the horizontal rigs alone is not a piece of cake (always a possibility that'd I rather avoid).
Looking ahead, a single-person portable hive is a good option for me - hence the 6-frame peg hive idea.


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## msl

I have been chewing on this a bit..... 
thinking about Ian Steppler's 6f nucs pushed together for production with a common super https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?328731-6F-nucs-for-honey-production
and the effect of a muti queen hive and why they make more honey....

We talk a lot about drift and how to fight it, but I wonder......maby do we have it wrong? 
The hives in this thread are mostly pushed tight together.. like one would see in the primitive Yemen hives and Egyptian tube hives where they are in stacks/walls .....
I wonder if we are missing something, an advantage to the stacks.. shared thermal regulation for sure .. but I wonder if drift is happening enuf to create the "muti queen" effect.. maby not as much as a shared super, but I do wonder 



> Looking ahead, a single-person portable hive is a good option for me - hence the 6-frame peg hive idea.


they look fun,, I often wonder why seeley didn't suggest a 5x5X5 format in stead of a 10xsuper 
for some reason I would have thought you would be attracted to something like a comfort box hive as a alpine type stand in... 
fast easy cheap build, manage/harvest by the box, small enuff to pull a harvest the 1st year, highly splitabul, etc


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## GregB

msl said:


> I have been chewing on this a bit.....
> thinking about Ian Steppler's 6f nucs pushed together for production with a common super https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?328731-6F-nucs-for-honey-production
> and the effect of a muti queen hive and why they make more honey....
> 
> We talk a lot about drift and how to fight it, but I wonder......maby do we have it wrong?
> The hives in this thread are mostly pushed tight together.. like one would see in the primitive Yemen hives and Egyptian tube hives where they are in stacks/walls .....
> I wonder if we are missing something, an advantage to the stacks.. shared thermal regulation for sure .. but I wonder if drift is happening enuf to create the "muti queen" effect.. maby not as much as a shared super, but I do wonder
> 
> 
> they look fun,, I often wonder why seeley didn't suggest a 5x5X5 format in stead of a 10xsuper
> for some reason I would have thought you would be attracted to something like a comfort box hive as a alpine type stand in...
> fast easy cheap build, manage/harvest by the box, small enuff to pull a harvest the 1st year, highly splitabul, etc


All these multi-queen setup talks always made me wonder - why the complications?
Just set two nucs in the space of a single hive (same footprint) and let each work autonomously.
Simpler - same result.
If you think of it - it boils down to a very simple idea - MORE queens working on the SAME footprint.
Of course you got more bees on the SAME footprint.
More bees - more potential output.
But a 5-frame is really too small.
6-7 frame is better.
8 frame is pushing into a heavy/big side.

Call me subjective, but....
TS is.... closed-minded in many ways (the hive design included).
He is stuck in this 10-frame Lang box and refuses(?) to even consider anything alternative.
Really is a shame that way, but true.
He is brilliant, ... and one step to the left - utterly uninformed - just puzzles me.

More I learn about this 6-frame system - more excited I am because:
- I got a box full of un-assembled deep Dadant frames I scored last year 
-- converted about 10 frames into my own deep frames (narrow-deep), but really feel shame altering the Dadant deeps from their actual intended use (wasting my time on this);
-- then I found these 6-framers - wow - perfect use for my stash
- also got too many Lang med frames - ready to use
-- and so I feel like building a dual set of the 6-frame boxes around the frames I already got
- in addition, selling away bees in this format is easier (who knows - I may have too many one day)

These are just about the same comfort box hive as the alpine hives AND I have ready frames.
For the alpines I must make a zillion frames (starting with the frame-building rig).
So the labor/time saving is really attractive for now.

So for the next season I want make a set of small alpine frames to use in my current horizontals - purely for the honey harvest - and eventual alpine hives too.

But instead of building few alpine hives, it will be few 6-framers.

Want to make a mirrored (side-by-side) set of the 6-frames based on the frame stash I got.
I intend to run these in pairs - that the idea for now.
Will make asymmetric entrances - to suit the paired setups better.

Each box will only take 6 live frames max.

Probably shoot for about 10 boxes (8 + 8 + 2 spares) and the tops/bottoms, which should be identical and multi-use (top or bottom - no significant difference).
These will be elongated rectangles to fit the common Lang sizes - the deep Dadant at the bottom 1-2 boxes (a deep Dadant just spans two boxes) - the rest Lang mediums as high as it takes to fit the nectar intake.
Actually want to make the boxes similar to 8-frames by external dimension - the two end positions will be taken by very light, insulated end-boards (repurposed plastic frames - pure trash otherwise) - will be very light double-wall setup (to make up the 3/4 thin boards running the long way) - the air space behind the end-board will be passable by the bees.
The short sides will be made of x2 wood - with the "pegs".
These should allow for fine wintering outside (I have it colder than those 6-frame runners from the Southern Russia).

The 6-framer cross-section should be about 9x18 ~160-170 square inches.
To compare, the square alpine 13x13 cross-section is ~170 inches square.
And we have very compatible, tight cross-sections with both designs - forcing the up-and-down bee ergonomics (no side-to-side wandering about).

A bonus - multi-use function allowed by the general sizing/peg-construction (swarm-trap/bee-transporter/frame-carrier/utility box/work stool) - all by 1-2-3 same standard boxes combined as needed for the job.

Something like this.


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## crofter

I looked at the 6 frame box idea quite a few years ago and calculated that half sized frames just fit nicely crossways in the box. If you are into using small mating nucs it would be easy to get them drawn out by putting a box of the half frames into the stack of 6 conventional lang frame boxes.

I like using excluders and wonder if a 10 frame sized one could be cut in half and set into wooden frames that would extend to cover the six frame box.

My experience with the paired stacks of 4 framers set on a common 10 frame bottom tells me that I would prefer each of the 6 framers have its own bottom. Sure, slide them together for mutual support and heat sharing, winter wrapping etc.

I have found 5 frame deep boxes stacked 3 high is a very good wintering config. The bees cant get stranded on one side away from their stores. 6 framers should be similar. Having more queens working would should be good insurance. Less of the "all your eggs in one basket" idea; more queens to select from for breeding purposes.

I can see some advantages of the Layens style deep hives; handling one frame at a time instead of moving boxes is something I have to look at; vertical is the easy way to go in the winter but I am not a fan of crush and strain so I want to stick with my small extractor. The Layens frames are not extractor friendly and appear to me to incur quite a bit of solidified honey on the frames. Having your system still based on standard Lang frames is attractive if you want to sell or share resources.

That "peg hive" vertical corner joiner piece makes for simple construction and would also lend itself to using narrower boards. If you weren't concerned with the positive, no slide efffect, you could make the corner piece flush with top and bottoms.

I think I am talking myself into building some 6 frame equipment!


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> .......each of the 6 framers have its own bottom. ....
> 
> ....*The Layens frames are not extractor friendly* .....
> 
> *That "peg hive" vertical corner joiner *piece makes for simple construction and would also lend itself to using narrower boards. If you weren't concerned with the positive, no slide efffect, you could make the corner piece flush with top and bottoms.
> 
> I think I am talking myself into building some 6 frame equipment!


This is why I dumped the Layens' frame from the start - why create an artificial problem for myself (while the bees don't care of a slight difference).


There should be nothing common between the 6-frame units (none of those common supers or common bottoms).
Completely autonomous.
If really wish, cover them with a common sheet of plywood as a "common roof", as in here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFAIS1VWJqE

Immediate benefit - while on the same stand, can orient the hives at 90/180 degrees to each other - you will mate the queen then (side-by-side mating will have inflated loss).

That "peg" corner is VERY strong (the screws go in PERPENDICULAR to the wood grain - an important detail people forget/unaware).
Stupid simple to construct; no fancy tooling is needed; done from pure scraps; error tolerance is high (unlike in the furniture-type corners).

And you don't have to have four protruding pegs - TWO strong pegs on the diagonal corners will do (remaining two corner will have shortened pegs).
And so you have both peg corners AND the ability to still slide/turn the box (close enough to the "slide" feature) - if concerned with saving few bees OR need to break the boxes apart.
AND with only TWO protruding diagonal pegs you can *flip *the box with pegs pointing down and interlock two boxes into a very strong lock IF so desired.
The frames can be dropped into the box regardless which way the pegs are looking (up or down).
The facing pegs should have 3-5mm space between them (they are no touching) - this is to insert the hive tool when breaking the boxes apart - you don't pry apart the boxes (damaging them) - you pry apart the pegs (the pegs are expandable components).

The nearly identical tops/bottom will have identical holes drilled in - entrance for the bottoms/ventilation for the tops.
The bottoms and tops can immediatelly substitute each other temporarily as needed (substitute permanently with minor mods).


----------



## GregB

Found another channel.
Another alternative 6-frame hive style.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBCyajSCTCx5b41nhdYPeCw/videos


----------



## GregB

So I largely ignore most all SC talks lately as mostly irrelevant to me anymore.

Well, was looking at this comment by MB:


> But even if it (GV: SC) doesn't help with varroa, you get longer lived bees:


https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?342014-New-to-bees&p=1770031#post1770031

Well, two ideas came to mind.

First (in the small hive context) - it seems to me all the benefits of the artificially small cells have to do with the *artificially enlarged hive* where the bees have to over-work to compensate for the excessive cavity space. Then we have the non-ending SC repeat as well as 1.25 frame repeat talks (as if beneficial).

It seems to me - once you start putting the bees into more natural/ergonomic volumes - the cell size/frame width will be less significant (if relevant at all).
Once I have some 6-frame equipment going, I will not spend anymore of my time shaving down the frames - enough time spent already.
Natural cell on commercial frames will do.

Second (more general) - why keep comparing artificially small SC cells to artificially large LC cells (two irrelevant and artificial techno-standards)? 

One should compare the artificial SC (or LC) to the natural cell and then make the same determination.
Any studies yet? 
I doubt it.
Yes - the findings could be inconvenient to the foundation producers.
I don't know, just guessing here.


----------



## little_john

I've been thinking about these long rows of 'nuc-boxes' overnight. That system clearly works, and so that should be good enough 'as is' - but - there's something about this method of arranging boxes which has been nagging away at me ...

At first sight one could imagine that there would be 'shared-warmth' all along the line - but is there ? 

If I were to position two boxes side-by-side, as is done with the Kirkhof system or Mike Palmer's dual-nuc stacks, then these could be butted-up hard against each other and maybe even clipped or strapped together. That would provide (as good as one could ever produce with separate boxes) shared warmth - or at least would eliminate from the elements one exposed wall each, which would then perhaps approximate to the same thing.

But - with multiple boxes 'side-by-side' there will always be small - maybe 1 or 2mm air gaps between the boxes. These would have to exist in order to be able to remove at will any one box from within a line of boxes - and - the presence of such air-gaps will prevent the firm contact necessary for either shared warmth or the complete elimination of exposed walls. 

Is there then a need for some kind of workaround here ? Maybe not - but if so, then what could this consist of ?

As I see things, it is necessary to retain the air gaps in order to be able to remove and replace boxes at will - all that would be required is some method of sealing those gaps. Perhaps bottom entrances left exposed, but with a canvas or plastic sheet covering the whole line from the entrance upwards, and strapped down, so as to effectively trap the air within those gaps ?* (*)*

My reason for posting is that I see enormous potential in running something along these lines in a static apiary - although much smaller in my case: perhaps four or five 5-frame nucs (2 or 3 high) to begin with - and I'd like to iron-out any wrinkles beforehand during the Winter period.
LJ

* (*)* I'm only thinking in terms of over-wintering - during the season I doubt this would be an issue.


----------



## GregB

little_john said:


> At first sight one could imagine that there would be 'shared-warmth' all along the line - but is there ? .


My short answer - no.

Granted, the subject of bees "not heating the hive" has been discussed into the blue face.
Of course, IF the bees do not heat their own hive, how can they share any heat with a hive one over?
The residual heat losses from one hive are not enough to ENTER the other hive and heat it.

Anyway, unsure why this sharing heat topic keeps coming up as if true; I don't see it as a significant phenomenon.


There is, however, wind-blocker effect (which amounts to reducing heat loss - which can be qualified as if "heat sharing" I suppose  ......)

Also there is a factor of communal heat output IF the entire hive community is placed into an enclosure and/or wrapped together (remember that "wintering in Siberia" video where the snow was melting) - also amounts to reducing heat loss. I don't know, back to the definitions again.

MB does similar nuc wintering techniques (see his site).


----------



## GregB

little_john said:


> ...Perhaps bottom entrances left exposed, but with a canvas or plastic sheet covering the whole line from the entrance upwards, and strapped down, so as to effectively trap the air within those gaps ?.


LJ, 

I see myself running these units in tight pairs where they will have a common wind-blocking wrap around the both.
They will be constructed so that the units will be physically touch each other (not a gap) - not a problem in this particular setup.
I want them in pairs so that the units support each other not to fall over (a possibility for a narrow hive) - this is the primary reason for the setup.

As far as the the "heat sharing" - not concerned of it as insignificant parameter.
I will instead focus on insulation of each individual unit.
One possibility is - inserting a sheet of foam between the units (since it is easy to do) - only further insulating the units from each other AND from the energy loss.
A foam sheet between the boxes will minimize the air movements to virtual zero - this is because the foam "gives", unlike wood.


----------



## msl

> Granted, the subject of bees "not heating the hive" has been discussed into the blue face.
> Of course, IF the bees do not heat their own hive, how can they share any heat with a hive one over?
> The residual heat losses from one hive are not enough to ENTER the other hive and heat it.


But of cource they heat the hive,( If they didn't they won't need a cavity), the hive wall will be warmer then the winter air temp, you can clearly see this in thermal pictures. 
so that means less heat loss if 2 walls are pushed together. realistically even an empty box pushed up against a hive is an insulation gain.

a cluster puts out about 20 watts
Easy to see in shed wintering programs, they have to cool them. The bees arn't just heating the hive, they are heating the entire building!


----------



## clyderoad

> But of cource they heat the hive,( If they didn't they won't need a cavity)


Is that to say they don't need a cavity for any other reasons? 
That is quite a leap if you answer yes.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> But of cource they heat the hive..........


The real issue is - the ratio of the physical body's heat-outputting capacity to the volume/mass/insulation of the environment that surrounds the heat-outputting body.

In most all our contexts - a cluster of bees does not really heat the enclosing hive significantly, ESPECIALLY well ventilated hive (in few cases IF they do sometimes - this is not healthy or sustainable for long term - that recent video from KevinWI is an example).

*Of course*, any physical body that has the temperature higher than the surrounding environment is HEATING the environment due to well-documented physical processes of energy transfer - via a combination of direct radiation/conductivity/convection. This is not a special case particular to bees, but rather very general thermodynamics.

Right now I am sitting in this huge office building and also am "heating" it - however, my heating contribution to the building's heating is a virtual zero (relative to the volume/mass of the office building).
Now - IF they packed 5 thousand people on my floor - that could create noticeable heat/moisture outputs (compare that to a conditioned and insulated commercial storage packed with hundreds of heat/moisture outputting hives - the same).

Now, let us move the same 5 thousand people into the parking garage just below the building (very well ventilated garage made from concrete) - let me tell you, the garage will stay cold. 
This will be a case of an apiary wintering outside.

SO - we have 1) a single hive context and 2) a large apiary context.
These are different contexts.


----------



## msl

right... point is we heat our sleeping bag not the tent... but if a few people in sleeping bags snuggle there is defiantly shared heat and the tent is warmer then if everyone is in there own tent



> SO - we have 1) a single hive context and 2) a large apiary context.
> These are different contexts.


yes and we are talking in the large apiary context... spreading hives out vs stacking them in a wall








as we see there are areas of 50F touching the hive walls I submit that thew the 3/4 wood the out side of those was is significantly warmer then the 7F out side, and we can see so is almost all of the box 
its a good read 
https://beesource.com/resources/usda/the-thermology-of-wintering-honey-bee-colonies/


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## crofter

Here is an idea to go along with the six frame hive body if you really want to be different. Using the Dadant Blatt frame in 2 half height boxes stacked for brood hive and for honey supers it appears one of the boxes is right for a shallow lang frame. Would be a nice setup for someone who has lifting problems.

http://forum.canberrabees.com/t/recreating-the-modified-dadant-dadant-blatt-brood-frame/148


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## GregB

msl said:


> right... point is we heat our sleeping bag not the tent... but if a few people in sleeping bags snuggle there is defiantly shared heat and the tent is warmer then if everyone is in there own tent
> 
> 
> yes and we are talking in the large apiary context... spreading hives out vs stacking them in a wall
> 
> View attachment 52909
> 
> as we see there are areas of 50F touching the hive walls I submit that thew the 3/4 wood the out side of those was is significantly warmer then the 7F out side, and we can see so is almost all of the box
> its a good read
> https://beesource.com/resources/usda/the-thermology-of-wintering-honey-bee-colonies/


MSL, I have a copy of that exact PDF and read it.
I agree about the "in-box" dynamics.
Definitely, the residual heat loss does affect the internal temps.
But how significant? 
Depends case by case and context by context.
Academically speaking - even a fraction of a degree is significant.
Practically speaking - a very solid foam hive recaptures enough of that energy that bees hardly even cluster (a very tiny mating nucs can winter in the foam - not a problem).
But a conventional 10-frame Lang from thin boards - ok, go and try to heat that up... 

But back to the LJ's case (wintering a row of boxes outside) - there is not much of energy output that the boxes can share in that case.
UNLESS you build a mini-wintering shed around them and insulate it well enough to recapture any escaping heat (under sort of a bubble).
Covering the entire set with a good snow pile will do this as well - not a case for LJ - no snow.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> Here is an idea to go along with the six frame hive body if you really want to be different. *Using the Dadant Blatt frame in 2 half height boxes stacked for brood hive and for honey supers it appears one of the boxes is right for a shallow lang frame.* Would be a nice setup for someone who has lifting problems.
> 
> http://forum.canberrabees.com/t/recreating-the-modified-dadant-dadant-blatt-brood-frame/148


Frank, if you review few videos starting from my original post here - this is EXACTLY what the guy is doing in those videos.

As for me, all my boxes will be built about the standard Lang *medium *frame - a double box of these fits a deep Dadant frame about perfectly (plenty close for the bottom boxes).


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## crofter

Yes. I have a set of frames ready to assemble. I made them the full 12.75" since I will probably draw them out in stacked five frame boxes. I think the bees work upwards, more eagerly than sideways and make fewer drone cells. In my cold climate frames commonly dont get drawn frame to frame till the second season. They build them out nicer in 5 over 5 over 5 arrangement.

The author seems to feel the 5 3/8 honey frames get drawn and capped more evenly that the 6 1/4" mediums but it would be quite a challenge to switch equipment when you are already bought in. 

Few beginners would be up to the challenge of going with non standard equipment.


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## little_john

crofter said:


> I like using excluders and wonder if a 10 frame sized one could be cut in half and set into wooden frames that would extend to cover the six frame box.
> [...]
> I think I am talking myself into building some 6 frame equipment!


This is a 5-frame QX to which some wood was added to one side so that it would then cover a 6-frame box. Perforated zinc - a horrible material ...

 

A few years back I scored a job lot of QX 'kits', the metalwork of which had been poorly galvanised - maybe 10 or 12 kits (forget now). Several of these I sliced in half and modified the woodwork accordingly:

 

I found that making 2x female slots at the new corners which were created and then using a biscuit to join them was easier than making a male tongue to fit a female slot:



These now cover a 230mm-wide 5-frame nuc box, and of course 2 can be used together (if needs be) to cover our standard 460mm-wide 11-frame brood box. I do have four 8-frame hives, and will make some loose battens to place against the 5-frame QX sides to cover the extra width. Wider lumber could always be used to cover a 6-frame width of course.

All-in-all it's much easier to modify a kit of parts, rather than a pre-made QX.
LJ


----------



## GregB

Someone is conducting a comparative observation of 6-framers too vs. standard 10-frame Dadants.
Here is the start of his project - summer 2019 - moving a split into the 6-frame hive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcIow9JLf4I

Fall update:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sgyhHrvRlA

Winter update:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWTRfb1BIE0


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## BernhardHeuvel

Waiting for the fail update.


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## GregB

Full collection:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCms6NHuFUqhJ3C6E1x6qmQ/videos[/QUOTE]

The 6-framer guy started reporting his early 2020 status.
His base is compatible to USDA 7.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrnuN5ezGtg


----------



## jtgoral

I use 3x 6FR over 6FR. In my configuration I can have 2x 10Fr shared suppers above the excluder. Small scale near Chicago.


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## little_john

Greg - I'm putting together something of a 'beekeeping theory' jigsaw, and right now there's just one piece missing ...

Does this guy have anything at all to say about the presence (or otherwise) of *drones* within his system ?

I have a hunch that I already know the answer - but it would be extremely useful to know about this from someone who's fully conversant with his language.
'best,
LJ


----------



## GregB

little_john said:


> Greg - I'm putting together something of a 'beekeeping theory' jigsaw, and right now there's just one piece missing ...
> 
> Does this guy have anything at all to say about the presence (or otherwise) of *drones* within his system ?
> 
> I have a hunch that I already know the answer - but it would be extremely useful to know about this from someone who's fully conversant with his language.
> 'best,
> LJ


LJ 
I will try to review some of his relevant vids where he might have talked about it.
The 6-frame guy abruptly went off-line this spring.
He said he was going to become more organized - but then just went away (entirely possible he is just filming and will be editing/posting off season). He did mention of the planned expansion - just must be very busy with that, as he is a true 100% bee-business operator.

Still, there is plenty of his existing material.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> LJ
> I will try to review some of his relevant vids where he might have talked about it.
> ..........



This may take some time.

Briefly reviewed this episode on "why the 6-framers do not swarm"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIre421dsFc

The basic premise is - with the 6-framer management, one is able to continuously keep the unit in the "young colony" mode.
As we know - the "young colony" is the one rebuilding after swarming.
The priority of such young colony is to urgently re-establish at the new place and put away resources for the cold season.
The drones are the lowest priority; the re-swarming is also low priority.

With the 6-frame setup, one need to frequently and radically pull away resources (e.g. frames of brood) so to manage the population down.
This forces the colony to be in "young colony" mode where they keep rebuilding.
And this also means one needs to continuously be expanding - those taken away resources need to go somewhere.

Of course, *managing the population down *goes counter to the popular belief of "making the colonies" large - so bring in bigger crops per a unit. But as we observe on this channel, running more smaller units gets just as large crop and then some - this is a tangent subject. The downside - more hands-on management, of course.

Back to your question - I will review more episodes keeping in mind to just look at the frames (regardless of the actual subjects shown).
As we know, the "young colonies" naturally build very little drone brood.
This is what I expect to see - little drone brood.

Of note: the 6-frame guy uses in the broodnest foundation (of his own production); 
his frame spacing is 35mm, if I recall (now confirmed).
he started making this honey super frames only on foundation strips and no wires (to save time/resources) and was please with the result - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIre421dsFc
He says (and you can observe) - the bees do build sections of large drone/honey cells in such "foundation-less" frames - but the QX does not allow for drone brood in these frames; 

Here is another vid of his running foundation-less simple frames - there is some large cell in them too; but not many; these are really honey cells techically, not drone cells.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSFbH9M3lNI

So, the QX is a part of the drone absence in his hives.
But managing them as "young colonies" as another part, maybe the major part.


----------



## little_john

GregV said:


> This may take some time.


Hi Greg. Sure - no worries.



> As we know, the "young colonies" naturally build very little drone brood. This is what I expect to see - little drone brood.


Indeed - that's exactly what I would expect, and what I'd hoped this guy would confirm. 

It seems that there are two opposing methods of preventing swarming: one is to provide the largest possible brood nest, so that the queen always has room to lay - that was Chas Dadant's approach. The downside with his approach is that you end up with a large number of bees *after* the flow, as well as drones - a waste of resources for a honey-farmer - and all of which then need feeding, which is even more waste of resources.

The other approach is what this guy is doing: keeping the brood nest to the minimum size consistent with efficient forager harvesting - so that no drones or excess bees result which require resources to both create and then feed. Greater efficiency for the honey-farmer.
This may have been the underlying rationale behind Heddon's approach too, but I'll admit to always having had a prejudice against Heddon's ultra-shallow frames - so I've never taken much interest in what he had to say. Maybe it's about time to rectify that. However, a smaller number of deeper frames sits much better with my way of doing things. 
LJ


----------



## GregB

little_john said:


> Hi Greg. Sure - no worries.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed - that's exactly what I would expect, and what I'd hoped this guy would confirm.
> 
> It seems that there are two opposing methods of preventing swarming: one is to provide the largest possible brood nest, so that the queen always has room to lay - that was Chas Dadant's approach. The downside with his approach is that you end up with a large number of bees *after* the flow, as well as drones - a waste of resources for a honey-farmer - and all of which then need feeding, which is even more waste of resources.
> 
> The other approach is what this guy is doing: keeping the brood nest to the minimum size consistent with efficient forager harvesting - so that no drones or excess bees result requiring resources to both create and then feed. Greater efficiency for the honey-farmer.
> This may have been the underlying rationale behind Heddon's approach too, but I'll admit to always having had a prejudice against Heddon's ultra-shallow frames - so I've never taken much interest in what he had to say. Maybe it's about time to rectify that. However, a smaller number of deeper frames sits much better with my way of doing things.
> LJ



Here is a good review of the good strong unit mid-summer - he does a full brood nest demo - Jul 21, 2019.
Watch as he flips through the frames - the whole *six *of them! LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FRfW5ZkGbg&t=240s

What we have:
- just removed *EIGHT *fully capped honey boxes (the ninth box unfinished yet)
-- this is only the first harvest; still 1/2 season to go yet - there is more honey in the coming
- the entire brood nest is packed into the lowest box - 6 full-size Dadant frames fully packed
-- watch, there is some drone brood on these brood frames (he mentions it) - I estimate 2-3% of the brood is drone IF that.

Basically, this is your answer LJ.
This demo will show you what you want to know - they do have drone, but *very little *of it.
IF they were in the mood for drone, they'd make some - keep in mind, this is wax foundation and so it does not limit much the drone cell construction if bees want it.

So to reiterate his method:
- in the spring time he will one-time expand the brood up to *two *brood boxes (12 full-size Dadant frames) - to make one-time population boost - this is for the honey-producing units (especially so for the early spring honey production)
- then he'll confine the queen to the lower 6 frames and that is the brood nest for the remainder of the season
- during the one-time expansion - he'd move the brood UP (above the QX) and fill the lower box with new frames for a near-complete rebuild - 4-5 new foundations are added to the frame(s) with queen on - that creates the "rebuild" situation
- in addition, he'd rob hives of 1-to-X brood frames for this expansion projects/bee sales - those are also replaced by the "blanks" - more rebuilding pressure
- all the while small nest size does not over-chill the nest when brood frames are replaced by the blanks - the nest is rather tight and dense with bees

If not for the artificial "rebuilding" pressure, these bees would swarm in no time.


----------



## GregB

little_john said:


> ......However, a smaller number of deeper frames sits much better with my way of doing things.
> LJ


The 6-frame guy specifically addressed exactly this.
Here, if I recall:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIre421dsFc

He did try running the brood on small frames and backed out of it.
With the already small brood nest, he feels full-size Dadants are a perfect fit AND there is much less commotion around them.

This entire small frame trend is around the* large boxes* - remember?
They try to address the weight with a small frame in a wide box.
Why - just the same effect is achieved with larger frames in more narrow boxes - a simple thing.
The larger frame == less woodwork/less bee-space == more efficient box usage.
As long as the box-with-frames is light enough to lift - the large frames in it are a fine choice.


----------



## GregB

One negative of the 6-framers vs. the square 300x300 setup - energy efficiency for *stand alone units* (typical for me).
With exact same area of the cross section, the 300x300 has ~10% less perimeter (the effect of the perfect square).
Meaning, bees have less work do to conditioning the volume (either UP or DOWN).
10% is significant.
IF not for this, I'd go 6-7 frame hands down.

Of course when you run hundreds of 6-framers, you'd simply line them up wall to wall with the long sides - a logical setup.


----------



## GregB

A cool video about 6-framer - I can see myself making one just like this from 2x scrap lumber and with the pegs.
This is a different beek/channel.


----------



## Steve in PA

I'm leaning more and more to switching over to 6-frame boxes next year after some experimenting this year. 3 queens in 6f deep brood boxes under excluder and supers did great compared to my traditional hives. One thing I've seen, and I'm going to construct in my 6f boxes over winter, is that half frames fit perfectly in them sideways. That should make the move from mini mating nucs to 6f to deeps not miss a beat.

I enjoy these experimental threads.


----------



## GregB

Steve in PA said:


> One thing I've seen, and I'm going to construct in my 6f boxes over winter, is that half frames fit perfectly in them sideways


Yep.
One should always think about and design in the compatibility between the systems.
The fundamental compatibility is already there - *the right angle* (not using the right angle - what makes the funny systems, e.g. KTBHs, Hex hives, log hives - PITA).


----------



## SeaCucumber

I might switch to double nucs (pairs of skinny hives) sometime.
advantages:

Join hives to prevent toppling.
smaller hives
Shared heat: The 2 hives make 1 cluster (according to Michael Palmer and Richard Noel).
good for mini frames
my goal: Making bees is more important than harvesting honey.

What I have

medium frames
4 way queen castle (2 fr./hive): Its hard to get the resources I want in 2 frames. I want honey, capped brood, and some open brood to keep nurse bees from leaving.
double nuc design ideas

Mini frame nucs are probably a priority. Design the mini frames and nuc feeders first. This determines box width.
Easy to separate hives (unlike Palmer double nucs)
number of frames: Michael Palmer and Richard Noel have had success with 4 framers. Has anyone used 6 framers?
Join hives to prevent toppling.
Palmer double nucs use a shared outer cover, bottom box, and bottom board.
my ideas
Make hives easy to separate.
Use a shared stand that bottom boards peg into.
possibly separate outer covers



SeaCucumber said:


> my idea


----------



## deemann1

Interesting posts here , You should look up Gilles denis a French warre beekeeper that runs 300 warre hives


----------



## jtgoral

6FR over 6FR in Wisconsin:


----------



## GregB

Guys did a side-by-side whole summer project - comparison of 6-framer vs. 12 framer (Dadant system).

Short resume:
Starting in the preceding fall, two identical young queen bees and bee colonies were taken - creating a 6-frame and a 12-frame hive. During the entire beekeeping season, the bee colonies were treated in the same way, they stood side by side through all summer migrations, and all the honey harvested was weighed. The small-format 6-frame hive showed itself better in early flows from acacia, sweet clover, etc., but the 12-frame hive was 25 percent more effective in the beekeeping season as a whole. The total weight of honey from the hives turned out to be 150 kg from the 6-framer and 200 kg from the 12-framer.

Comment from me - an important detail I got from the video - the 6-framer was a hard-foam hive (*the brood box*); the 12-framer was a conventional wooden hive.
Also, they kept taking off the capped supers off the 6-framer just to manage its height.
Still - pound for pound - the 6-framer killed it hands down.
Might as well run two 6-framers side by side (adds up to a 12-framer) and get 300 kg from the same footprint.
LOL.

Source:



> Начиная с осени были взяты две одинаковые молодые пчелиные матки и пчелиные семьи созданные в 6-ти рамочном и 12 рамочном улье. Весь пчеловодный сезон за пчелиными семьями велся одинаковый уход, на кочевке они стояли рядом и весь собраный на медоносах мед с магазинов взвешивался. Малоформатный 6-ти рамочный улей показал себя лучше на ранних взятках с акации, донника и тд , но зато 12 рамочный улей эффективней на 25 процентов сработал по пчеловодному сезону в целом. Общий вес меда с улья получился 150 кг с шестирамочника и 200 кг с 12 рамочного дадана.


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## Bueff

That's a very interesting outcome, thanks for conducting this little experiment. How many boxes did you use? Double brood box I assume and how many honey supers?
I am thinking of setting up some AZ hives on a trailer, maybe I should build them as six framers instead of the ten frames.


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## GregB

Bueff said:


> How many boxes did you use?


Was not *me *who did the experiment.
I am just reporting what I found out from others and included the source - which is clear.

Detailed videos are here (several pieces) - you can scan and see for yourself.
Status at the start of July:




Status at the end of July:




Status on August 11:




End of the season:




Status in October:





The channel:








Медовое Дело


Канал о пчеловодстве в Алтайском крае. Будут выкладываться ролики о работах с пчёлами в течение сезона.




www.youtube.com


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## GregB

From the channel comments:

May one say that two 6-framers is better than one 12-framer?
100% to say so. We had two 6-framer all summer long working on honey. The pair produced more than 300 kg.
Will you increase the number of the 6-framers in your business.
Probably so. 
.................
- For the next year will try to test 6-framer, 8-framer, 10-framer and 12-framer and will see.


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## Bueff

Well, the thanks for putting the hard work in and translating all the posts.  
what are the little ramps on the hive entrances for?
Cane toads over here would have a field day munching away those little protein bee snacks.
Looks like I might try the 2x 6 frames in a 12 frame hive.
If one was to do the double hive, would one get a way with one lid, or would one need two lids, one for each hive section?


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## GregB

Ramps - in E. Euro they are big into the "ramps" - to help the heavily loaded bees into the hives (I am not a subscriber to this, btw). Since they don't have the cane toads or the skunks - the ramps do not hurt (and may actually help in *cold *weather - I observed the benefit of the ramps and use them sparingly in very early/very late season).

Double-hive - does not matter - do what is convenient to you.
I have done it in my long hives for wintering reasons - just a rigid plastic separator inserted in a groove and soft inner covers, that simple.


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## Bueff

If there is a double nuc in a normal full depth box with a single lid, wouldn’t there be issues if bees from both hives crawl over to the other hive?


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## GregB

Bueff said:


> If there is a double nuc in a normal full depth box with a single lid, wouldn’t there be issues if bees from both hives crawl over to the other hive?


Use *soft inner covers.*


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## Bueff

GregV said:


> Use *soft inner covers.*


Thank you for pointing this out, that makes perfectly sense, of cause. 

Now back to the original topic


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## GregB

Here is channel of another commercial operator.
He decided to make the jump onto 6-framers.



https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCA-xpGsPXFjID3Dt8bxJtow/videos


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## david stern

GregB said:


> The channel owner takes apart a couple of his 6-framers (no preps/no setups - just as-is).
> He has not looked inside yet since the last year.
> 
> He is doing it because the channel subscribers asked for a demo.


It looks like he uses wired foundationless frames.


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## GregB

david stern said:


> It looks like he uses wired foundationless frames.


Yes. 
For honey.
Just a starter strip.
They build like crazy.


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## GregB

Found a good demo of 6F Dadant hives used strictly for honey.
Nothing to sniff at.
20-25 kilos of each 6F stack as videoed (the gray bearded fellow said).

12F Dadants are nervously smoking outside. 

(1026) 6 рамочный улей используем на медосбор - YouTube


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## little_john

I decided to watch the videos linked in post #1 again, and in doing so spotted a few features I'd missed first time around. I hope Greg will correct me if I've misunderstood anything of significance. 

The 6-frame stacks sit on a 100% area mesh floor with a 20mm high full-width (narrow end) entrance - which together ensure maximum bottom ventilation.

The 6-frame boxes all have the same height, but there are two depths of frame: 300 and 145mm - such that the 300mm frames fit into two stacked 6-frame boxes.

Ok - so these two different frame depths bring me to an issue I still haven't quite got my head around. In early Spring the colony initially builds up on two stacked boxes containing six 300mm (Dadant-depth) frames. When these frames are almost full, a second pair of boxes containing another six 300mm frames are added to expand the brood-nest to a total of 12 Dadant-depth frames for colony build-up. We've covered this expansion in detail several times before now.

But, (and this is where I'm a tad lost) at some point the Dadant brood-frame count is reduced back down to six again for the remainder of the season. Two questions then arise in my mind: firstly, how exactly is this reduction performed, and secondly - what then happens to those frames ?

If I was doing this reduction myself, then - after ensuring that the Queen was on the bottom set of frames - I'd place a QX between the lower and upper set of frames until the latter was cleared, or at least more-or-less cleared ... is that what happens here ? Presumably those frames could then be placed in storage. 

But if they were to be used to raise another colony, then the above clearance could be dispensed with, and those frames used 'as is' complete with whatever residual brood they contain.

So that's the essence of my question - what fate awaits that second set of Dadant-sized frames ? - as it would appear that they don't stay on the existing stack.

The reason I'm asking Greg - and many thanks btw for your frequent assistance in translating info from Eastern-European videos, for without that many of us would be hopelessly lost - is that during the coming season I want to try running the two Warre-style stacks I have in more-or-less the same way as this 6-frame commercial guy. (8-frame boxes dummied-down to 6, with Ukrainian (brood) frames occupying two stacked Warre-style boxes) Should be an interesting exercise ... 
LJ


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## GregB

little_john said:


> But, (and this is where I'm a tad lost) at some point the *Dadant brood-frame count is reduced back down to six again *for the remainder of the season. *Two questions then arise in my mind: firstly, how exactly is this reduction performed, and secondly - what then happens to those frames ?*
> 
> If I was doing this reduction myself, then - after ensuring that the Queen was on the bottom set of frames - I'd place a QX between the lower and upper set of frames until the latter was cleared, or at least more-or-less cleared ...* is that what happens here ? Presumably those frames could then be placed in storage.*
> 
> But if they were to be used to raise another colony, then the above clearance could be dispensed with, and those frames used 'as is' complete with whatever residual brood they contain.
> 
> So that's the essence of my question - what fate awaits that second set of Dadant-sized frames ? - as it would appear that they don't stay on the existing stack.


Hey LJ,
I really want to review his videos again (especially the "Advantages of the 6-framers" - #1 to #6). Now that I should have a reliable supply of bees - more experimentation is in order - onto the 6F Dadants! 

Here is his video titled - "One-time expansion down."
(1031) Разовое расширение в низ! - YouTube
Here is his video titled - "Expansion! Two weeks later!"
(1031) Расширение! Результат через 2 недели! - YouTube

But here let me try:
1) *firstly, how exactly is this reduction performed, *
In the first video he says (after 11:00 sometimes) - as the upper box frames are gradually empty of the brood the bees will fill those deep frames with honey - he will remove the frames, extract the honey and re-deploy the frames into his splitting/expansion operation.

2) *secondly - what then happens to those frames ?*
Upon removal of the deep frames above the QX, those deep frames are redeployed into the splits.
So, basically, once the brood has hatched and second deep tier has been redeployed elsewhere - *for the remainder* of the season only shallow honey frames are installed over the QX.

3)* is that what happens here ? Presumably those frames could then be placed in storage.*
Not storage - those frames are redeployed into the expansion projects.
At his stationary base he runs expansion/queen mating projects - the deep frames are needed there too.

4)But if they were to be used to raise another colony, *then the above clearance could be dispensed with, and those frames used 'as is' complete with whatever residual brood they contain.*
In his case - he needs all the brood to hatch *locally*, and the resulting workforce used for the honey harvest.
Once the second deep tier is redeployed away - he immediately places honey boxes in its place - and then the honey harvest above the main 6F brood box will going on and on - thru the entire long, migratory season.
So, he does not (generally!) deploy the residual brood elsewhere - but you certainly can - depending on your own needs and wants.

5) * what fate awaits that second set of Dadant-sized frames ? - as it would appear that they don't stay on the existing stack.*
Correct - they don't stay beyond the brood hatching period (3 weeks?).
Their fate is to be redeployed into the swarm of the new 6F splits that are being created and raised at his stationary expansion yard. As he travels with his truck - many of the original queens are being superseded - but the replacement queen matings usually fail (*in the crowded truck conditions*) - so he must have a good supply of replacement queens and replacement colonies.


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## GregB

little_john said:


> ...............
> The reason I'm asking Greg - and many thanks btw for your frequent assistance in translating info from Eastern-European videos, for without that many of us would be hopelessly lost -* is that during the coming season I want to try running the two Warre-style stacks I have in more-or-less the same way as this 6-frame commercial guy.* (8-frame boxes dummied-down to 6, with Ukrainian (brood) frames occupying two stacked Warre-style boxes) Should be an interesting exercise ...
> LJ


Yes, you absolutely can re-use his exact techniques. 
One-time expansion down should work properly - just as he demonstrated in his video.

He did say there were nuances for the 10F situation - he made another video for that.
But we don't care of the 10F situation.


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