# adding a second deep brood box



## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

I am curious about this as well.
Another Newb here.
I have a local guy here that tells me to just throw a super on.
I am wondering if I should add a second deep first?


----------



## Boone (Jul 21, 2011)

Make sure they have at least 80% filled out, and preferably full of brood and honey. Add the box and smoke the entrance a couple of times. They may not always go into the new box right away, but you can spray the frames with sugar water.


----------



## Snakejumper (Jul 3, 2011)

Is there a reason you want to add a second deep super? Have you considered just adding a shallow super for producing honey? I'm curious since I'm a relative newcomer to beekeeping & still have a lot to learn.

I've never kept two deeps, but I winter them (two hives) with one deep & one shallow.


----------



## Pamela White (May 7, 2012)

We just installed our first hive 3 weeks ago and I was wonderin the same thing. Do we add another deep super for brood, then add a shallow super after that?? That is the way I see alot of folks do.


----------



## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

With any new colony, your first obligation is to help the hive prepare for and survive their first winter.

What I do (and your methods may vary) is as soon as the first deep is 80% drawn out, I'll pull a frame they are drawing, replace it with foundation, move that frame up into the new deep I'm putting on the hive. That baits the top deep and lets them know its there for them to use. They will draw out that frame of foundation in the bottom just fine. 

While doing this, I feed feed feed, until they stop taking the feed. You want the frames drawn out as quickly as possible, and you want them to occupy two deeps (if that's what you're going to overwinter in) as quickly as possible. Once that has been accomplished, then you can think about the honey supers, and maybe a little for your hot rolls this fall. 

Some folks have been known to run a deep for brood, then shallows or mediums for honey harvesting. Usually that is not enough space for a prolific queen, and it encouraging swarming. And unless you use an excluder with a single deep, the queen WILL move up and lay in your extracting supers. 

Some folks do not use excluders at all...me included. I run two deeps for brood nest, shallows or mediums for extracting honey. Sometimes the queen gets up into the first extracting super, but the bees fill cells above her, limiting her upward rise. Then as those larvae hatch out in the super, the bees fill those cells with honey. I'll add future supers above that super, allowing that super to form a barrier to the queen. 

You will also learn that as the bees backfill the brood nest in the top deep, you can "bottom super" (add a shallow/medium of foundation UNDER your existings extracting supers, but ABOVE the brood boxes), which encourages the bees to draw out the foundation, and fill the cells. 
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Steven


----------



## Snakejumper (Jul 3, 2011)

So it seems that I may be restricting production by keeping only one deep for brood. I'm discovering that beekeeping isn't Science but is an Art that is informed by one's experience & personal philosophy (I made that up) and I see I have a lot to learn.


----------



## Pamela White (May 7, 2012)

Thank you very much. Yes, that helps out tremendously.


----------



## lissa (May 3, 2012)

Hey All;
I'm new to this too. Last year I bought a complete hive with bees from someone. When I tried to find someone locally to ask questions and get some gear they told me to put a med super on right away, so I did. The bees never filled out the comb. This year, same super, no comb. Swarm! Half my hive gone. I was so confused, I thought they had plenty of room. Evidently they didn't think so. 
I recently came accross some info that said to take out the two outer most frames with drawn comb and hopefully no brood and push the other frames out from center then add two new frames, (no comb) in the center to get them to draw out comb. So I did this and replaced the med super with a second deep hive above with the two frames of drawn comb hoping to encourage them to fill out the new frames. I will keep doing this until they finally draw out all frames or decide to go up into the top deep to draw out comb. Am I on track here?

Also I aquired an 8 frame hive complete with two med supers. I bought a package of bees. Did everything the instructions said to do. The queen was accepted and came out of the cage, started laying as soon as some comb was built. All looked great but I still had no concept. I thought they would just fill out the frames. Sounded like a good idea to me, but I left some space in there that I shouldn't have. They started building comb where they wanted to and took up into the top box. When I inspected this past week I destroyed some by pulling off the top box and then had to scrape off the excess that was sticking above the frame. It was full of what looked like nectar/honey and was dripping everywhere. I felt so bad. All their hard work. I cut this hive down to one box for now until they fill out most of the frames. Did I do the right thing here? I know it was my fault they were building that way.

lissa


----------



## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

Lissa,

Don't fret about destroying comb. During a flow they'll rebuild it remarkably quickly. We all make lots of mistakes, so just try to learn from them and don't get down on yourself. Sound like you did exactly what I would have done to fix the problem. Sometimes if the comb is really good and I can save it, I'll tie it into a frame, but other times I'll just remove it and give it to friends' kids for show and tell (after I shake the bees off...  ).

For when and why bees swarm, check the excellent page at Bush Bees. In short, they don't see undrawn foundation as space... sort of like the dusty attic in your house.

Good luck,
Jeff


----------



## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm pretty much in the same boat, brand new to BeeKeeping, & I installed my 1st hive April 18th I plan on using 1 deep and 1 med for brood. One of the Beeks helping me made this suggestion, he said that when I get 80% full on my deep, take the outermost frames and swap them with the frame next to it. Then use wax foundation for my next medium, add the queen excluder then the medium. Remove the excluder in August. This will allow the bees to build plenty of stores in the mediums to overwinter. 
I'm still not sure if I'm gonna try this, I've read in many places that bees sometimes will not move through an excluder to new undrawn foundation.
But this guy has about 150+ hives and has been in the business for a long time.
I may try it, but moniter it closely to see if the bees do infact draw out cone on the second medium.

I would love to hear some opinions on this strategy, but please remember, I'm not stating this as facts; just passing on what was suggested to me.


----------



## thomasj (Jul 21, 2011)

Steven, thanks for the info. I had planned to go with two deep then a medium super and not really count on harvesting any honey this year unless they really have an abundance. I want them to build up strong and have plenty of stores for the winter. We have very mild winters here so it might be safe for me to take a little bit. So you would not necessarily move up a couple of brood frames to bait it? I am running five frames with foundation and five foundationless. They are building some beautiful comb on the foundationless frames. Nice and straight. I used two with foundation in the center and then alternated the rest. Thanks again. Thomas


----------



## Nantom670 (Jul 29, 2011)

Thomas, you may want to go with a deep and a medium brood and then mediums for your honey supers. If so, this will stop you from taking one out of the deep. You have to decide 2 deeps or 1 deep and 1 medium for brood. But as one said above, be sure when those first 6 full frames are drawn and mostly capped in the center of the deep that you look at both of the two outside frames on each side as they are sometimes leaving them bare. Rotate those toward the inside and place your next box on top. If a medium they will go up and if you are still feeding your sugar water will be on top of the 2 box and that will bring them up. I cut a 3/4" wide X 3/8" tall dado in the center of my box on the bottom, which I place on top of the bottom box and the some bees will start using that entrance. They seem to like it. I also like a plexiglass cover as my inner cover so I can watch them. Here is a picture on my photobucket http://s1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb369/nantom670/
I replace the cover on my side window when I get through observing them. And I can take the outer top cover off and look it from the top without having to be bothered by flying bees. I love my shady spot.


----------



## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

You've done good Thomas. I don't know when the weather starts turning in the fall in your neighborhood. I generally pull honey the last time Labor Day weekend. If you're lucky, and you get at least one shallow or medium super of honey, you might check the top deep, see how it is for sealed honey for winter. I'd be tempted to harvest at least a frame or two, just to taste my own hoiney for the first time.

There is a CHANCE you could have two honey supers, so harvest one. I hope that happens for you.
Regards,
Steven


----------



## garprob (Jan 20, 2009)

As fas as needing two deeps or just one I suppose it depends, at least in part, on your location. Here in Wyoming i could never get awawy with just one deep. My bees fill 2 deeps with honey in preparation for winter and then consume about all but a few frames before the willows start blooming in the spring. If you, in your area, have nectar flows later in the fall and earlier in the spring then you might do just fine with one deep.

As far as adding annother deep goes- I would wait til the first is 80% drawn and then throw on a second. I have never moved any brood up- the bees find their way on their own. Just make sure you feed as long as they will take it. When the queen feels the need to move up she will- if she wants to stay down she will do that. I have found that when I try to manipulate the hive to make them do what I want I usually screw things up. They have been doing what they do a lot longer than I have.


----------



## Russ (Sep 9, 2001)

The thing to remember about drawing wax is that the reason that the Bee's draw wax is to have a place to store honey, or for a place for the Queen to lay. They do this if is there is a nectar flow on, OR IF You ARE FEEDING THEM. If you are feeding them they think that is a nectar flow so they will draw WAX. To get you frames drawn out you have to FEED, FEED, FEED until they quit taking the syrup or all of you frames are drawn out. Feed 1/1 syrup in the spring to get them to draw wax and 2/1 Syrup in the Fall to get them ready for Winter. DO NOT FEED when you put your supers on or you will have sugar syrup in your supers. Hope this helps.


----------



## lissa (May 3, 2012)

geebob,

Thank you for the link. That article helped a lot and I feel better about what I did this weekend. 

Russ,
Thank you. I am feeding sugar water at 1:1 so am hoping the moving around of frames will encourage them to fill out the new frames. The article I just read helped me to understand what they are doing and gave me some info on how to manipulate the frames to help them grow.

I love a challenge and a chance to learn and this has certainly been one. I am just hoping that I will have a little extra honey this year I can enjoy from my older hive and am worried that the swarm and them not building new comb to expand has set me back or will cause a lack of extra stored honey. I don't have any supers with drawn out comb. All new equipment. Apparently the guy I bought the old hive from was harvesting honey out of the deep hive box and did not use supers at all. I don't know how he was able to keep any bees at all.


----------



## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

Snakejumper said:


> So it seems that I may be restricting production by keeping only one deep for brood. I'm discovering that beekeeping isn't Science but is an Art that is informed by one's experience & personal philosophy (I made that up) and I see I have a lot to learn.


From what I've read, the space of two deeps corresponds the the 1,600 - 2000 eggs laid daily by the queen and the life cycle of the workers and drones. Other than cost, I doubt making that space from deeps, mediums or TBH makes any difference. I feel limiting space promotes swarming before restricting growth.


----------



## thomasj (Jul 21, 2011)

I have one more question for now. I just checked my hive and they have almost drawn out five of the ten frames. Alot of honey, pollen and brood. It has been three weeks today since I installed this particular package. Am I thinking right that it is going to take 5 to 6 weeks for them draw out most of the frames where they would need another brood box. I got this package from Bee Weaver and they are some hard working bees. I have two more packages coming from Rossman next week. Hope they do as good.


----------



## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

thomasj said:


> Am I thinking right that it is going to take 5 to 6 weeks for them draw out most of the frames


Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, it doesn't work like that. Comb building is very dependent on 1. supply of workers, 2. supply of nectar/syrup, and 3. good working temperatures and conditions. When your colonies hit a good flow and have a good population of bees, they can build comb incredibly quickly. Last year I had a colony that was almost a full brood box behind in comb building in mid-June, but was dead even with the other colony in two weeks.

So, in other words, be mindful of what's going on in their world when estimating comb building.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

thomasj said:


> I had planned to go with two deep then a medium super and not really count on harvesting any honey this year unless they really have an abundance. Thomas


Being conservative your first winter is probably good advice. Two deep and a medium for SC would be VERY conservative. I suspect that on an average winter you'd come into spring with 100 lbs of surplus. Best to check with some of your local people and see what a typical configuration is. In fact, there is at least one beekeeper here that overwinters in SC. 

Snakejumper:
I believe that beekeeping is a mix of art and science. Its the mix and resulting entanglements that seems so confusing. 

Many commercial folks successfully run single deeps for honey. I'm not commercial, but this is my preferred configuration, however, not suggested for the newbee.


----------

