# Building/milling your own frames and parts



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

are you really a chef too?


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## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

I too make furniture in my "spare" time -- spare time which unfortunately is becoming not so "spare" in my life any more... So, I concentrate on the wooden ware other than the frames. I just don't find that the time to make frames is justified, as the cost is so minimal compared to the boxes. Making them just right to get proper bee space, get the foundation to fit right, etc. - I leave it up to the factory which is equipped to make them quickly and cheaply.

MM


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## Dale Hodges (Jul 13, 2007)

I've been making my own "woodware" for years. A few years back it was a big money saver, but with the prices of lumber today it no longer pays. That doesn't mean I've stopped, but I guess I do it now for "the fun of it". If you got lucky and found so lumber really cheap, you could save some money. I havn't done the math lately, but I'd guess something in the area of 70 to 80 cents a foot for 1 X 12's. I don't think it ever paid to make end bars,although I've made thousands. If your close to a source and don't have to pay alot shipping or burn a lot of gas, its cheaper to buy. if you need something to do on a rainey day ..... you could probably save a few pennies building supers.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I've switched to building just about all my equipment....except the frames. I still salvage a lot of free lumber from restaurant supply stores and agricultural implement dealers. They use a lot of 1" pine boards in their crates and pretty much pile up the crates and pallets for someone to take away. 

I could not see the financial savings from buying lumber and the salvaged pallets have better quality than what Lowe's etc. sell. Shame on Lowe's for the cr*p they try and sell. 

If I didn't have free lumber, it's cheaper, from the perspective of my time and labor, to buy the unassembled parts, even with today's high cost of shipping. Ask around at your bee club and see if you can put together a larger, bulk order to save some money.

In some of the odd lots and orphaned equipment I've picked up at sales and estate auctions, there are ample examples of someone who tried to build their own frames. What I found is that these frames never have the strength of purchased frames. They do not have the interlocking parts that give the purchased frames their strength. My ultimate test comes when you have to pry these home-made frames out the super, and then they have to withstand the force of the extractor.

I'm still stuck on buying frames.

Grant
Jackson, MO http://www.25hives.homestead.com


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

I have milled several hundred frames myself when I had more time and free wood (salvage). Tops and bottoms are pretty easy and don't need much of an explanation, but the ends are more complex. I started with a 2x4 (or 2x6,2x8, etc.), plained it down to the width of the end bar, then cut them to length. Then you mill the profile, dado top and bottom, planer for the sides. Finally you slab off each end bar on the table saw. Not terribly difficult, but only worth it if you have free time and a source of free wood.


-Tim


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

I'm with Mapman and Grant. I build just about everything except the frames. I go build the items that I can save the most from and work my way down to the items that have little to no savings for me and then go purchase those, which includes the frames.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

I've done a couple hundred myself. They are a pain, and I'm not sure that they are worth it, unless like previously stated...you have lots of time to spare.

I found the tops to be the toughest, followed by the sides. The frames that are sold have a lot of nice features that you can skip to save time....

1. Shoulders on the sides...they are nice for spacing, but once the comb is drawn out, you can use the comb for spacing, and they'll draw it out to fill if you space them too far. This simplifies the sides a lot. I did things pretty much as described by Tim A.

2. Wedge on the top bar. I suppose you can just go with grooved top bars, but I ended up just skipping the wedge and cutting them only as thick as the top would be without the wedge. Then I just stapled on a wedge on both sides of the foundation (or a "V" for foundationless). I ended up being able to cut the big peice with the dados for the sides and slabbing off the top bars.

Sure, you may get a little extra propolization or comb here or there, but these changes didn't seem to affect a whole lot. YMMV....

Rick


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

I agree with Tim, I have never tried to make frames ( I aint putin my fingers that close to the saw blade ) but I do make everything else.

I have priced lumber @ Lowes, Home Deopt, and Menards and this week Menards has 1"
X 12" for .77 cents per foot so I can make a deep for about 5 bux and have rips left over for the edges of innercovers.

I am a dumpster diver so always on the lookout for crate lumber ect ect.


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## chefbeek (Sep 7, 2007)

*Thanks a bunch...had a feeling.*

You guys are awesome! Thank you!

I really wanted to do it to see if I could, suspecting full well the economics wouldn't make sense. You guys have confirmed this. I can get 1x12 E. white pine for .93 a linear foot, so doing everything else makes sense. I figured on using 5/4 planed to 1 1/16 and slabbing off the end bars like someone else had already mentioned. The 3/4 stock for tops and bottoms is endless.

Maybe I'll make a set for giggles, use some redwood I inherited when I bought my house (25 year old fencing) and give them to my beek mentor for Christmas. Then I'll place my order! 

Hey Chef Issac, yes, I'm really a chef! Private club, which allows me a little time to do this. Not much else though.... 

Thanks again folks!
Eamon


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

chefbeek: You go to culinary school? I went to CIA up there in NY.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If I were to make my own it would be to get all the things I want in a frame but can't get, like 1 1/4" spacing and beveled top bars and solid bottom bars.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> If I were to make my own it would be to get all the things I want in a frame but can't get, like 1 1/4" spacing and beveled top bars and solid bottom bars.


I make all my own frames, mostly for the same reason. I have gotten it down pretty good and can build 20-30 deep frames per hour. 

Dadant has a store in Paris, TX which is about 4 hrs from me, but they still charge me shipping like it is coming from IL so I really object to paying more for the shipping than the cost of the frames. As a matter of convenience, it also seems faster for me to make my own frames than to wait on UPS ground shipping.


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## chefbeek (Sep 7, 2007)

*Why 1/4" spacing?*

Why the 1/4" spacing MB? 

I agree with you about customizing things. Also, why the bevel on the top bars?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

1 and 1/4" (1 1/4"), not 1/4".

Because if left to themselves it's what the bees will space the brood comb

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/CombSpacing30.JPG

and if you space it that size you get an extra frame of brood, a better covering of more brood (less bees wasted between the frames trying to warm the brood) and smaller cells drawn.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#framespacing

The bevel is so I can do foundationless frames:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm


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## nsmith1957 (Sep 7, 2006)

I made all of my equipment, frames included, from the plans here on beesource. I can't imagine making only 20 to 30 frames at a time. Having to change the setups for all the different cuts wastes too much time and is a pain. When I make frames, I make 100+ at a time. Setup one time to make a particular cut, then make that cut on all of the 100's of parts. Setup for the next cut, make those cuts. Continue until all parts have been cut to plan.

Yes, it is time consuming. But, when you have more time than money you can save some out of pocket expenses. Shipping adds up in a hurry.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

>...and if you space it that size you get an extra frame of brood

MB, will this work in eight frame equipment also or only ten frame equipment?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I run nine frames in my eight frame equipment and eleven in ten frame equipment. But then I think I only have one ten frame box left and it's a Dadant Deep...


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## chefbeek (Sep 7, 2007)

*More time than money...which isn't much anyway*

nmsmith1957
I too have a little more time than money, that's why the push to figure it out. I did figure out the end bars this morning. I used a 2x8, planed down to 1 3/8, cut dados on each end with a tenoning jig, jointed 1/8" off each face, and sliced them off on the table saw. Worked great. After setting everything up, I can see where it will make finacial sense. I plan on making frames for 6 deeps, 6 supers and 3 nucs. This is my starting amount for next Spring.

Top bars are next.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Chefbeek

Always make more than you THINK you will need, you never have enough


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## nsmith1957 (Sep 7, 2006)

chefbeek said:


> nmsmith1957
> I too have a little more time than money, that's why the push to figure it out. I did figure out the end bars this morning. I used a 2x8, planed down to 1 3/8, cut dados on each end with a tenoning jig, jointed 1/8" off each face, and sliced them off on the table saw. Worked great. After setting everything up, I can see where it will make finacial sense. I plan on making frames for 6 deeps, 6 supers and 3 nucs. This is my starting amount for next Spring.
> 
> Top bars are next.


Your process is similar to mine on the end bars. With the top bars, I start with a 1x8. Crosscut on a Radial Arm to 19". Then rip 1 1/16" from the 19" pieces on table saw. Grove the middle of underside on table saw. Dado the side locking slots on each end with Radial Arm. Then dado out the bottom of ends leaving 7/16" thick lip on each end on Radial Arm. 

I don't do the taper on the bottom lips or the small angle cuts on each corner. Just gives the SHB more place to hide. If you live in an area with SHB, don't use the frame rests that raise the frames up 1/8". If you do, you give the SHB a lot of area to hide in. If they ever get the upper hand on the bees, one day you will open up the hive and see hundreds of SHB larvae coming from that 1/8" space under the frame ends. Not a pretty site, since if it has reached that stage the larvae have slimed up the hive. Yuk, what a mess. Lost my starting 3 hives, this year, to SHB.


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## nsmith1957 (Sep 7, 2006)

honeyman46408 said:


> Chefbeek
> 
> Always make more than you THINK you will need, you never have enough


I agree. When you need another super or deep, you usually need it right now, not a few days or a week later.


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## chefbeek (Sep 7, 2007)

*It works!*

Gene-
Thank you so much for the time you took to explain this all to me. It turns out the economy of motion dictates the same process to you and I. I made 50 top bars last night from a 1x12 in about 1 1/2 hours. I used almost the exact process you and others described. 

I did a little math and figured out it will cost me about 30-33 cents perframe, culling out 10% for checks, bad knots, etc....AND NO SHIPPING!!!!!! Yipeeee!!!!

We should post some pics for everyone else.

Eamon
More time than money, more sense than dollars....


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

> I did a little math and figured out it will cost me about 30-33 cents perframe, culling out 10% for checks, bad knots, etc....AND NO SHIPPING!!!!!! Yipeeee!!!!


And the great feeling when you see the beehives and you made them all yourself!!

Note: that feeling only comes about 6 months after you are all done. After 200 frames and 50 hours later you are really wondering if it is worth it.....

As I walked through the lumberyard the 1x12s caught my eye and I almost stopped...but then I thought...then I'd have to get/build frames for any boxes I build....keep moving....


Rick


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

And exactly how much is YOUR time worth ???

I usually keep a mental list of "things needed" and when I happen to be near a dadant store I stop in and get what I need/want. 

The hours spent setting up and building 100 frames (or 200 for that matter) just are not
worth the 67 cents I pay for frames by the case.


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## nsmith1957 (Sep 7, 2006)

Fuzzy said:


> And exactly how much is YOUR time worth ???
> 
> I usually keep a mental list of "things needed" and when I happen to be near a dadant store I stop in and get what I need/want.
> 
> ...


Let's make an imaginary order from Kelly. Since Kelly is the closest to me. Not everybody lives near a bee store.
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100 Frames (deep) from Kelly - $60.00 weight 39 lbs.
Shipping 39 lbs to my door. - $17.00

Total Order - $77.00

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100 make my own - $33.00 33 cents per frame.
Shipping - 0.00

Total make my own - $33.00

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Savings
Kelly Total - $77.00
Make Total- $33.00

Savings Total $44.00

------------------------------------------------

It would take me about 5 hrs to make the parts. That would be about $8.80 an hour. Not bad since I had nothing better to do anyway. If I had to make 1,000's of them, then I would take a different route.


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## BeeRay (Apr 12, 2006)

*Free Hanging Frames*

What about Free Hanging Frames? My edition of ABC & XYZ (40th Ed, p. 180-81) has a section describing these frames which have the top, bottom and end bars all the same width. These would require less labor and could be made with just a table saw.

Since I use 9 frames in a 10 frame hive, the spacers aren't very helpful anyway.

Does anyone make/use these Free Hanging Frames?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Does anyone make/use these Free Hanging Frames?

I've made them and put a staple on the left on the far end and the right on the near end so they have one spacer per end per frame. They were easy to make and easy enough to use. I just did a butt joint on the bottom boar and notched the top so the end bars can be nailed from the ends. The plans for such things are in the Killion comb honey book.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

nsmith1957 said:


> Let's make an imaginary order from Kelly. Since Kelly is the closest to me. Not everybody lives near a bee store.
> -------------------------------------------------
> 100 Frames (deep) from Kelly - $60.00 weight 39 lbs.
> Shipping 39 lbs to my door. - $17.00
> ...


I have my own saw mill as well and 5 acres with plenty of millable pine trees. When ever I am milling lumber for other construction projects on the farm, I go ahead and mill some stock for bee ware at the same time. When you consider the cost of the mill, I don't really know if it saves me much or not, but it sure is dang convenient.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>about $8.80 an hour . . .
Ever wunder why "Bush" foundationless frames cost >$2 per frame?


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

> And exactly how much is YOUR time worth ???


Perzactly! Now should you be spending your spare time, enjoyably, in the shop making things that you can use even though those things are fairly inexpensive to buy anyway? Or should you be entertaining yourself by sitting in front of a computer monitor pecking away at the keyboard? Another of those decisions to wrestle over.....


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

Some things are difficult to purchase at an affordable price. I know the local Dadant doesn't carry 5 Frame NUC bodies (unless you buy the roof and base with the deep body) and the ones offered at the on-line supply houses are way too expensive with shipping. They are easy to make in that they take little time provided you have a table saw. I use the plans provided here on Beesource, with minor modification.

To me, each person has to do a cost benefit analysis. What's your time worth; how much savings can you realize by eliminating the shipping at the same time adding the cost of materials...

I make the things that are the easiest, with the most savings first with the time I have available. If time doesn't permit, then I have to buy it.

I conserve gas by planning my trips to buy supplies and groceries, and I have more lists then I have brains or time to read them, or find them after I lose them!


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## randydrivesabus (Apr 27, 2006)

if you build stuff yourself you can write off the cost of the woodworking machinery and supplies on your taxes. i'm assuming of course that your beekeeping activities are reported on your tax return.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

randydrivesabus said:


> if you build stuff yourself you can write off the cost of the woodworking machinery and supplies on your taxes. i'm assuming of course that your beekeeping activities are reported on your tax return.


here, you pay taxes on the equipment/machinery as they are assets. only items that are leased, rented, or disposable can be written off. disposable items like paper towels, shop rags, disposable plastic drop clothes, some saw blades, paint brushes, etc... not all supplies can be written off either.


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## randydrivesabus (Apr 27, 2006)

WVbeekeeper said:


> here, you pay taxes on the equipment/machinery as they are assets. only items that are leased, rented, or disposable can be written off. disposable items like paper towels, shop rags, disposable plastic drop clothes, some saw blades, paint brushes, etc... not all supplies can be written off either.


but on your federal income tax return you can depreciate or take a 179 deduction for the equipment/machinery. What supplies can't be written off?


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## chefbeek (Sep 7, 2007)

*Framing of the hive...*

Some great points brought up here, so I'll throw in my thoughts to this point. 

Making my own woodenware was a no brainer. I have a full shop in my basement and no kids mind you. So, if I'm able to mind my primary responsibilities, then woodworking to me is fun and the time I spend in the basement this time of year is "priceless." Frost is on the ground here in Central New York, and we're hunkered down for the next 5 months. Couple that with my excitement of getting going next Spring and evaluating my times worth becomes easier.

To me, a newbee, I am still learning at every turn, and making my equipment offers me a unique insight to "bee-space," equipment economics, bee-architecture, etc....the whole enchilada. I don't know how you can account for "learning as you go" but to me it's worth a ton.

Time to make more saw dust!
Eamon


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## huggy (Jun 23, 2007)

I'm considering rolling my own frames now, but only because I just had a gift of some materials from a friend who had a beekeeper friend who passed away. Apparently he was making his own frames and I have boxes of various pieces in various stages of fabrication. Now I just may have to invest in some dado heads and clean out the garage to set up the woodshop! 

I have most of the tools I need, I think. I enjoy working with wood, but I have to admint, if I had to justify this based on cost and time and accountability, I probably couldn't. I'd rather look at it as a hobbie - you know, something you're going to do and spend money and time on ANYWAY...


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## ekrouse (Aug 26, 2004)

*Hey Chefbeek*

Eamon, where are you in Syracuse? Are you working at Calvalry, Century, Onondaga, or somewhere else. Private Message me and I'll connect you with other beekeepers in the area if you want. I too have a bunch of equipment in the basement (table saw, planer, etc), but don't have the time to make supers. If you're interested I might just buy some off of you if you want to produce some extra (could use 20 - 30 extra mediums). Anyway, get in touch when you have the time.

-Eric


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## Gene O (Feb 19, 2006)

*making frames*

Make my own boxes and bottoms all that stuff BUT FRames end of finger missing trying OH


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## chefbeek (Sep 7, 2007)

*Not the finger!*

 Lost digits notwithstanding, I will buy my next batch of frames. Too much work, and I don't even have any bees yet! Everything else comes out of my shop, but buying frames is too good of a deal to pass up. That's my conclusion. Thanks for all of your help folks. I'm glad I found you all.
Chefbeek


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