# Going in with 4.9



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

IMO I really like the concept of the fully
drawn Honey Super Cell and going with a
package. You can then dump the package onto
the HSC and confine them for 2 to 3 days.

Fast, easy, one step regression.


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## Ardilla (Jul 17, 2006)

It is much easier to plane the topbars down before the frames are assembled. If they are already assembled, I would plane them before they are coated with wax and propolis.

The endbars are easy to plane after the frames are assembled, but the top bars are a pain since the end bars get in the way.

As for your reduction technique - I have no idea.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If the frames are already assembled I don't bother cutting down the top bars, just the end bars. If they aren't assembled yet, I trim the top bar down to the width of the notch for the end bars and the end bars down to 1 1/4".

I do think it's worth cutting them to 1 1/4" because they drawn smaller comb better. But you don't have to. I also like an extra brood frame in each box.


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

I wonder if Dadant will take back the hundred sheets of medium cell I have, which is unopened for small cell... I purchased it a month ago and ever since reading about small cell....I think I want to try it...

I'll call them tomorrow

Also, I don't understand this: <Do you think it would be wise to trim the top frame bars down to 1-1/4" on the initial 4.9 frame installation?> What is the diameter of the top frame bars to begin with and why cut them down?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Jeff

the idea is you make the width of the frames less so you can get an extra one in the box
this puts the combs closer together and is supposed to be closer to what's "natural" for the bees and encourages them to draw a smaller cell size
you also get more brood in the box

if they won't take you foundation back just save it for supers

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What is the diameter of the top frame bars to begin with

Standard is 1 3/8" aka 35mm

> and why cut them down?

Because this is what the bees will build:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/CombSpacing30.JPG

Read the section starting at "Observations on natural cell size" (or better yet the whole page)
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm


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## Tulipwood (Jul 16, 2006)

I have been planning to move to SC this spring but did realize that the top and end bars required trimming. If you are using Small Super Cell is this necessary?


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

".........but did realize that the top and end bars required trimming."

It's not required at all. You can certainly go
small cell without trimming the bars. It is a
nice step though, but don't lose sleep over it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I have been planning to move to SC this spring but did realize that the top and end bars required trimming.

It's not required at all. It's just helpful. IMO You'd be much better off with SC in regular frames than large cell in regular frames.

> If you are using Small Super Cell is this necessary?

Small Super Cell? Honey Super Cell? Not necessary in either HSC or regular frames, but you'll get more brood. I've heard of studies done in Russia years ago that show less Nosema with the tighter spacing too. The main reason I do it on the wooden frames is that it encourages smaller cells which speeds up the process of regressing. On HSC it's already drawn so that reason doesn't exist for it.

Also, if you want the tighter spacing, you can go to the Yahoo organics group and look in the photos you can find "Waggle Positioning" pictures that show how Joe Waggle came up with a way to get the tighter spacing while they are drawing the comb without trimming the end bars.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

Dave and Michael, Ohhhhhh, now I understand. I think I will have to wait to cut down the next bunch of frames I assemble. I've built almost all the frames I was going to build this winter and have them all wired up. I do plan to run down to Dadant and exchange the LC for SC foundation to get things started. Thanks for your wisdom. I learn something new everyday here.
Jeff


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## flathead (Nov 1, 2006)

Well, I opened up my seven colonies today and inserted a SC foundation frame into the brood nest in the bottom deep and installed excluder.

I had two left on solid BB and switched them out to SBB

Two are russians and I really like those bees. There is much capped brood and larve in all stages. I got them mid-May last year and they are beating the pants off the two italians I set-up end of April 06.

Stored pollen is plentiful and they are bringing in more. Nectar too.

How long do you think I should give them before I slip another 4.9 in on them?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

If there is little or no flow on, wait until the first frame is at least half drawn.

If there is a heavy flow, I would give them 2 or 3 frames at a time.

Darrel Jones


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How long do you think I should give them before I slip another 4.9 in on them?

Probably when that one is drawn and filled with brood. It's up to the bees.


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## kingofbees (Jan 26, 2007)

I am going with Honey Super Cell this spring.

I have eight hives.I want to begin the process with.
I wish to put fully-drawn HSC in the bottom box and put queen on. I will put queen excluder on the box(to confine queen to bottom box with excluder). Next step I will put brood box on the queen excluder. Do I do correct? May be by bee packages will bee beetter? Then dump the package onto the HSC and confine them for 2 to 3 days.
What do you think?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You need some brood in the box with the queen (unless it's a package) otherwise you risk that the bees will abandon the queen to care for the brood and raise a new queen. I would put half the brood in the bottom box with some HSC and the queen and then as they progress move frames of capped brood up above the excluder and replace them with HSC.


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## kingofbees (Jan 26, 2007)

Michael Bush, Thank you so much for your reply and advice.


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## Craig W. (Feb 26, 2006)

I got my 4.9 foundation from Peggjam ( I hope I spelled that correctly). It was wax foundation I cut into strips, I didn't have any wax so he used what he had.

You might want to email him, maybe.


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## flathead (Nov 1, 2006)

The weather here is starting to warm up into the high 60's so I thought I would take a peek at one of the SC frames I installed Jan. 14th.

The wind was blowing some and I did not want to keep it open long. I did manage to take a couple of quick pics.

It will be warmer tomorrow and will work the other 6.

Plan is to add two more into the brood nest on this hive and the other six colonies as it looks like they are ready.

http://zacharyfarmsllc.com/small%20cell.htm


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Flathead,

Looking good!

Regards
Dennis


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## chinitoe (Dec 10, 2006)

when using HSC for the first time, do you have to pu a queen excluder outside the entrance so the queen wont move out? has anyone experienced queen flying away bcoz of the HSC or Permacomb?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>when using HSC for the first time, do you have to pu a queen excluder outside the entrance so the queen wont move out?

It's probably not a bad plan with any package, but I haven't done it. I have only had one package abscond and it didn't involve HSC or PermaComb or small cell. After a week or two when they have brood you should be able to remove it.


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## kingofbees (Jan 26, 2007)

has do you have to pu a queen excluder outside the entrance so the queen wont move out?

Maybe is better to put queen in a сage


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The nice thing about the excluder (as an includer) is the queen is laying and so they soon have some open brood. Open brood will help a lot in anchoring them to the hive. If she's caged she won't lay.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> If she's caged she won't lay.

That's not been my experience - what I've
seen is that caged queens will have a patch 
of brood that is roughly 1/3 to 2/3rds the 
total comb area enclosed by the cage, assuming 
that one has put the cage over "empty brood 
comb" to start.

This was during spring blooms, dunno about 
other times, as I only caged queens during the
spring blooms.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>That's not been my experience - what I've
seen is that caged queens will have a patch
of brood that is roughly 1/3 to 2/3rds the
total comb area enclosed by the cage, assuming
that one has put the cage over "empty brood
comb" to start.

Then I suppose we need to define caged. As I took it we were talking about a typical queen cage. If you make something like this out of #5 hardware cloth, she will lay a patch of brood in it:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/QueenConfinement5.jpg

But how are you going to put that on HSC plastic comb?


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> But how are you going to put that on HSC plastic comb?

I'd never use plastic for brood comb.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I don't remember where I bought them, (maybe BM?) but I have some plastic cages that use four plastic pins in the four corners. 

I tried them on PC and they work using just the two opposite corners. They will also work on HSC in the same manner.

Don't mind those stuck in the stone-age, everything will work if your bright enough to know how to make it work.


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## flathead (Nov 1, 2006)

We opened up four hives today for the third time to add some new 4.9 foundation. All are two deeps.

One is really booming and I should have the brood nest(five or six in each deep in the center) on the first complete 4.9 step in a couple of weeks.

The other three hives are a bit slower.

I tried a wood starter strip in the most receptive hive and in one week they have drawn a full frame(except the corners) in all huge drone comb.

The 4.9 foundation drawn out comb is nice in a couple of hives but the other two it is spotty and not real pretty. But they are working it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Typically in the spring (which it must be in Louisiana) if they don't have enough drone comb they will draw that first. If you move it aside (I put it on the edge of the brood nest) they may drawn one more drone comb and after that they usually draw worker comb. That's if you leave it in. If you remove it they will continue to draw drone comb.


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## flathead (Nov 1, 2006)

Thanks MB.

I left the starter strip frame with all big drone comb in as I figured they wanted it or they wouldn't have drawn it out so pretty. I was by myself and the wind was blowing and cool so I didn't get a pic.

The starter strip, as you have shared many times before, was drawn as fast or faster than the foundation.

Today I got to open my two oldest hives that were nucs last spring(April 2006). They are just picking at the 4.9 put in a few weeks back. Both are weak(er) and laying in one hive body only.

I did put the first round of foundation in the lower body and saw today she(both hives) was more active in the upper box.

I think they will do better at drawing it out now that I have the foundation inside the active nest. These two colonies are on probation and I told them so today.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

flathead,
I was going to ask about your current weather conditions, etc. I guess I could look kup Zachary on the weather report. But what's blooming in your area?


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## flathead (Nov 1, 2006)

<But what's blooming in your area?>

Well I am kinda of new at this so I am not sure what is blooming, I mean the exact tree they are working. 

There is butterweed and it is at its peak right now.
http://zacharyfarmsllc.com/pollen.htm

I mowed some clover down yesterday when I cut the lawn for the first time.

It is really warming up here next few days.

http://www.wunderground.com/US/LA/Slaughter.html


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## Kyle Meadows (Jul 14, 2006)

*trimming end bars*

<If the frames are already assembled I don't bother cutting down the top bars, just the end bars. >

On my Brushy Mountain wedge top frames, if I were to reduce the end bars from 1 3/8 to 1 1/4 without trimming the top bars too, that would reduce the space between two adjacent top bars from 5/16 to 3/16. It also would reduce the space between two adjacent end bars (the lower half of them anyway) the same amount.
Would this make it difficult for the queen or drones to get around?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Would this make it difficult for the queen or drones to get around?

It might. The main purpose is to get them to draw smaller comb quicker. You can space them out more if you like after it's drawn. If they are not assembled, I'd cut the top bars down too.


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## Bryanaw40 (Jun 11, 2006)

*trimming frames to 1.25"*

Michael Bush,

Do you trim the frames in Honey supers as well or just brood chambers?

Bryan


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you trim the frames in Honey supers as well or just brood chambers?

It's irelevant one way or the other in the supers. If they are 1 1/4" I can still space them out to 1 1/2" for 9 frames in the super. If they are 1 3/8" then I can still space them out to 9 frames in the super (or in my case seven in an eight frame super). You can cut them down or not. Having them all the same is nice, but not necessary.


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## Bryanaw40 (Jun 11, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >Do you trim the frames in Honey supers as well or just brood chambers?
> 
> It's irelevant one way or the other in the supers. If they are 1 1/4" I can still space them out to 1 1/2" for 9 frames in the super. If they are 1 3/8" then I can still space them out to 9 frames in the super (or in my case seven in an eight frame super). You can cut them down or not. Having them all the same is nice, but not necessary.


Michael,
thanks for the reply. So you have them spaced 1.25" when building comb then space them out when finally drawn out? I don't understand why one would go to the trouble of cutting down frames to 1.25" then space them out to 1.5"? I am sorry if I am a bit thick on this but I am new and have much to learn.
thanks,
bryan


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## Matt NY (Jan 14, 2006)

flathead said:


> For now I need a starting point and can make up the rest as I go along(with plenty help).
> 
> First the existing hives-
> Plan is to confine queen to bottom box with excluder and insert one frame of SC into brood nest and move the one frame of LC up into top boxes.
> ...


Quote snipped.

I started last year with one nuc. All new added foundation was sc. I would be afraid of dividing the brood area even with good weather, with bad I would be very afraid. I checked my frames for brood and eggs and went sc/sc/sc/lc/sc/lc/lc/lc/lc/sc. They messed the first few pieces of foundation up pretty badly, but after a while they got it done very nicely. I think that my eventual addition of a drone frame may have helped reduce the drone cell building urge.

I have four nucs coming in a few weeks. I hope to get my first colony drawing new foundation that I will use in the nucs. My thoughts are that even if it is only partially drawn the nucs will have less desire to rework it. I also plan to insert a drone frame with the hope that this will satisfy their urge to rework sc foundation or partially drawn sc comb. This is only hopeful speculation of course.

My only colony overwintered very well. I gave them some syrup in a DBF starting last week. Mainly because it has returned to winter here and I felt they would be set back too much. This weekend things will change though with normal weather coming. I plan to keep the foundation rotating in and out untill the nucs arrive. I'll keep the syrup going for my comb factory also.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So you have them spaced 1.25" when building comb then space them out when finally drawn out?

In the brood nest? No. In the supers? Yes.

> I don't understand why one would go to the trouble of cutting down frames to 1.25" then space them out to 1.5"?

I wouldn't. But if you want all your frames the same, it doesn't matter if they are 1.25" or 1.375" they are still going to be spaced out to 1.5" in the supers so they will be easier to uncap.


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