# MAQS failure



## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

Most likely a combination of the quilt, and the expiration. Maqs are very particular to how they are stored as well as date. Most likely was iffy whether it'd been strong enough in a closed up hive. You didn't mention if you had a screen bottom or not, but if so, that wouldn't have helped matters any either.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

elmer_fud said:


> on September 22 added 1 MAQS strip between boxes 2 and 3
> on September 29 I did a sugar roll and found 9 mites in about 1/3 cup of bees


well we have had other people complaining about MAQS not working, but in all cases they tested right during or right after they put the strips on or as they removed them.

from the nod web site


> MAQS works by penetrating the brood cap to kill mites where they reproduce. The majority of mites (80%) in a hive are found under the brood caps feeding on the developing bees. After a treatment, phoretic mites (mites found on adult bees) have dropped, however mites killed under the brood caps will drop as baby bees emerge from their cells. To get a more accurate mite count, wait a full brood cycle, or 16+ days after treatment.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I read that you placed strips between boxes down in the stack rather than always on top. Formic fumes are much heavier than air so perhaps create a low concentration area at colony top.

One strip in a 4 or 5 body colony is a bit on the light side for dose perhaps but temperature concerns makes for a balancing act. ~ Temperature concerns can lead to deferred treatment and this is the enemy of getting ahead of the mite population rising curve.

Would there be surrounding bees with a high mite load?

Concern with Maqs usually leans more to _hard on bees_ rather than to _lack of effectiveness_.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

There was recently a thread on B L about the failure of MAQS to take down the mite load on some hives.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

johno said:


> There was recently a thread on B L about the failure of MAQS to take down the mite load on some hives.


yes but if you went back and looked at the person that started the thread, they have had the same failure every 3 or 4 years, and they don't test for mites:kn:

and if you look at the second person that said it failed, they also tested right after they pulled the pads. I went and looked at Randy O. tests of MAQS and the ones I looked at he did his tests at 30 days and 60 days after treatment.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

I'll give you an example of how MAQS can look like they failed when they really worked. A friend of mine doesn't treat for mites in the spring, we requeend a couple of his hives in the spring, he bought a couple of nucs from me and I gave him a couple of swarms from my hives(all were treated with apivar in the spring) he treated with MAQ pro's all the hives at the same time. When we were pulling his honey in Sept after he had treated, I looked at some of his drones and they had DWV. I gave him my pro vap 120 and said put stickies in all of the hives and treat them and count. He is on his final treatment, the nucs and swarms had minimal amount of mites, the ones that were not treated in the spring, were raining mites. The Pro used came from the same bucket, same amount used, hives were pretty much equal in size, the Pro's didn't fail, his mite counts were really high to start on those hives they killed mites, just to many mites.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

wildbranch2007 said:


> "After a treatment, phoretic mites (mites found on adult bees) have dropped, however mites killed under the brood caps will drop as baby bees emerge from their cells. To get a more accurate mite count, wait a full brood cycle, or 16+ days after treatment. "


I wish this was the case but I know it is not. When I did a sugar roll on October 13 I dissolved the sugar in water then poured it thru a paper towel to make it easier to count. Several of the mites were still moving around on the paper towel.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

crofter said:


> I read that you placed strips between boxes down in the stack rather than always on top. Formic fumes are much heavier than air so perhaps create a low concentration area at colony top.


I placed the strips across the top of the bars with the long orientation of the strip perpendicular to the bars. I placed them in/above the brood chamber for all except for the last treatment on October 13




crofter said:


> Would there be surrounding bees with a high mite load?


Maybe, I know one of my neighbors 2 doors down had a hive last year and did not treat. The couple at that house got a divorce this year, and I have no clue if they still have bees. I don't talk to them much so I dont know what they are/are not doing. My other thought on this is if this hive was robbing another one they would probably be gaining weight instead of loosing weight. This hive lost about 5 lbs of weight between sep 23 and oct 7. I have not grabbed the data off the logger since October 7th so I do not know what they are doing right now.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

Bdfarmer555 said:


> . You didn't mention if you had a screen bottom or not,


I have solid bottom boards on all of my hives. The entrance was fully opened with a robber screen in front of it.


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## Apis Natural (Aug 31, 2017)

did you add extra ventilation like a top vent as the direction say to do?
air needs to circulate through the hive when maqs or formic pro are used.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

elmer_fud said:


> I wish this was the case but I know it is not. When I did a sugar roll on October 13 I dissolved the sugar in water then poured it thru a paper towel to make it easier to count. Several of the mites were still moving around on the paper towel.


the formic kills the male mites under the capping's not the females, so they don't get mated.


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

Doesn't sound like product failure to me at all. Sounds like sky high mite loads and late, sub-optimal treatment and not following label instructions. 
I don't want to come across as condescending. It takes a lot of mistakes to learn and I applaud you for doing regular mite counts, but hear me out. 

You had high mite loads in august, but waited over a month before treating, at which point you used only a half dose. The label states very clearly if you are using one strip, to follow it with another strip 7-10 days later. Instead, you did a mite count and found a higher mite load, then waited another 2 weeks before actually doing the treatment that you probably should have done in august. 

Mite Away, in my experience, is really good at killing mites, but nothing works with high mite loads too late in the season. I have definetly seen a huge range in NOD's product. Fresh pads are soft but dry, closer to expiration they get really goopy and difficult to handle. Seems like it still works though. Formic pro seems to be much more consistent. Regardless, I think the timing is way more critical. This is speculation, but I an earlier treatment probably would have kept your mite loads at tolerable levels, AND given you time to do a follow up in case it really didn't work. 

Now please go read "Fat Bees" (again if you already have) and really think about the timing of your treatment. 
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-1/


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

I tend to agree with Apricot....the narrative provided by Elmer seems to indicate really late control of mites as well as non-label/direction application regimens.

Wildbranch....I have never heard that FA only kills the male mite....if so, why are there so many dead mites ( all females) on the bottom boards after a treatment?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

orthoman said:


> I tend to agree with Apricot....the narrative provided by Elmer seems to indicate really late control of mites as well as non-label/direction application regimens.
> 
> Wildbranch....I have never heard that FA only kills the male mite....if so, why are there so many dead mites ( all females) on the bottom boards after a treatment?


can't remember where I read it, if I find it I will post it, but delivering honey for the next few days.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

one quick search found this in Randy O's site.



> Figure 11. The treatment killed most of the immature mites and male mites, and about 70% of the hardened brown mites (50 -100%, although we didn’t record meticulous data). In one count, 11 of 11 mites found were dead.
> 
> One observation of note is that the percentage of mites killed in drone brood was noticeably lower than that in the worker brood, as noted by both vanEngelsdorp, and by Amrine when the drone brood was in older combs, and confirmed (pers comm) by David Vanderdussen, the developer of MAQS.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

This is the daily high for the airport that is close to me. It was not consistently below 85 until mid September. This year the entire season (except first snow/hard frost) has been offset about 3 weeks. The tree blooms, the fall colors, the farm crops, the temperatures have all been several weeks behind normal. 

View attachment 51927


View attachment 51929


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

ApricotApiaries said:


> Doesn't sound like product failure to me at all. Sounds like sky high mite loads and late, sub-optimal treatment and not following label instructions.
> I don't want to come across as condescending. It takes a lot of mistakes to learn and I applaud you for doing regular mite counts, but hear me out.
> 
> You had high mite loads in august, but waited over a month before treating, at which point you used only a half dose. The label states very clearly if you are using one strip, to follow it with another strip 7-10 days later. Instead, you did a mite count and found a higher mite load, then waited another 2 weeks before actually doing the treatment that you probably should have done in august.
> ...


uggg, somewhere I lost a date in the first post. I did one strip on september 22, 2 on October 6, and 2 on october 13. 

I agree that I did not follow the instruction correctly by placing 2 strips in the hive on October 6th, but it did not look like one strip was working right since the might load still seemed really high. After still finding a bunch of mites on the 13th I decided it was not really working right so I should throw another 2 strips in there and hope for the best. On the 13th and when I started this post I was thinking that I had too much air flow thru the hive, and having the feeder on top of the hive should reduce most of the air flow and increase the acid fume concentration. 

Like I said, I wanted to treat earlier, but the temperatures were consistently to high every 3-5 days until mid september. The only days that I can get in my hives during the day on a regular basis are friday, saturday, and sunday due to work, so it makes it harder to treat with OAV on a 4 or 5 day cycle.


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

elmer_fud said:


> uggg, somewhere I lost a date in the first post. I did one strip on september 22, 2 on October 6, and 2 on october 13.
> 
> I agree that I did not follow the instruction correctly by placing 2 strips in the hive on October 6th, but it did not look like one strip was working right since the might load still seemed really high. After still finding a bunch of mites on the 13th I decided it was not really working right so I should throw another 2 strips in there and hope for the best. On the 13th and when I started this post I was thinking that I had too much air flow thru the hive, and having the feeder on top of the hive should reduce most of the air flow and increase the acid fume concentration.
> 
> Like I said, I wanted to treat earlier, but the temperatures were consistently to high every 3-5 days until mid september. The only days that I can get in my hives during the day on a regular basis are friday, saturday, and sunday due to work, so it makes it harder to treat with OAV on a 4 or 5 day cycle.


That missing date makes things a little different. If you can stuff that many strips in a hive and not have significant bee losses, or a queen lost, and still have high mites, there is a good chance you have a product issue. What was the consistency of the strips when you put it in? Also, how were you storing them or did they come straight from the warehouse? You can freeze MAQS which prolongs expiration a little bit. 

Still, even with the missing date, and better understanding your temps, there are other issues to consider. I think the bigger issue is waiting so long from when you first noticed climbing mite loads and when you actually started treating. I understand the high temps. That said, I am in eastern oregon, a climate more similar to boise than portland. Hot, dry, summer. Cold winter. Fall can last 2 weeks or 3 months. We have high temps every summer through most of september. I have used MAQS every year in august, always pushing the upper limits. I figure if I can get it on in the low 90's its usually ok. Above 95, we get higher than normal bee and queen mortality, but never catastrophic. I just make sure to have queens on hand when I check back. It is a risk I am willing to take. My feeling is it is more important to get mite loads down in a timely manner. 

Lastly. Try to remember, there are other options than MAQS and OAV. Thymol works pretty well in the mid 90's, though also should not be used over 95. Likewise, it takes several applications 2 if you are using apiguard, 3 for api life var. Apivar (amitraz) does not have a temp limit. I WILL stand by my previous statement that AUGUST is a critical month to get mite loads under control.


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Again, pretty much agree with Apricots assessment. I tend to look at treatments as killing by either contact or fumigation. The fumigants have temperature range limitations that need to be followed. If temps are a problem, then look to contact products.

There are pros and cons to all treatments.....gives and takes to each.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

ApricotApiaries said:


> . What was the consistency of the strips when you put it in? Also, how were you storing them or did they come straight from the warehouse?


The strips were somewhere around a sticky paste. They did smell a lot like caulk when I opened them, which I assumed was normal. This year was my first time using MAQS, I used apivar strips last year, and OAV the year before that. I decided changing up what I am doing will reduce any chance of the mites that survive developing resistance to one method. 

I ordered and received the MAQS in mid august when they went on sale (at kelly) because they were expiring in the end of august. I figured if I used them within 2 weeks of them expiring (was the plan until the weather decided otherwise) I would be ok. I had them in my garage for a few weeks which was not a good plan and I did not realize it at the time, but my garage also does not get super hot (I think it was 90's or below) this time of the year. After I started treating I left the container on my sunporch (it is screened in with a roof) in the shade so the unopened MAQS saw the outside temperatures but were not getting hot at this point. I probably should have kept them inside (at a more constant temperature) but it is late for that now. The consistency has not seemed to change from the first set of strips that I opened to the most recent ones. 

I started with one strip with the logic that it is easier on the hive and I am less likely to loose a queen that way. I do not have any extra queens (I have 4 hives) so I figured this was the less risky treatment option. At this point I need to get the mites under control quickly to have any chance of getting this hive thru the winter. I will check the mite load again tomorrow and go from there. 

Appricot Aparies and orthoman, have you ever treated with MAQS with quilt boxes on top? I am still thinking this may have been part of my problem. 

Thanks everyone for your help. I keep thinking I sort of have beekeeping figured out then something new comes along and proves me wrong.


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Elmer,

I have moved from MAQS to formic pro, mainly because I like the pads better as well as the longer shelf life. I also prefer the single pad treatment alternative, especially later in the season because I also worry about losing a queen and having problems with finding a new queen late in the season.

I have not used a quilt box per say; however, I use a Vivaldi board that is similar in a sense and it stays on all year.....kind of like a quilt board....so there is lots of ventilation out the top. I drop in insulation for winter. Where I live winters are pretty damp and humid and this seems to have cut down on mold on the peripheral frames as well as prevents condensation on the inside of the inner cover.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

I did a sugar roll on all 4 hives today.

In hive 1 (this thread) I found 23 mites in 1/3 cup of bees

in hive 2 I found 22 mites in 1/3 cup of bees

in hive 3 I found 3 mites in 1/3 cup of bees

in hive 4, I found 5 mites in 1/3 cup of bees

OAV is starting this weekend. All 4 hives had had atleast 3 MAQS strips placed in them, atleast one single strip, and one 2 strip treatment. I did see all 4 queens today which is good, so atleast I know they are still alive.


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## 123989 (Jul 30, 2018)

Apis Natural said:


> did you add extra ventilation like a top vent as the direction say to do?
> air needs to circulate through the hive when maqs or formic pro are used.


I see no where in the directions where it states to add extra ventilation. You add them on top of the brood chamber
and leave the bottom entrance completely open, no reducers, no mouse guards. You also close screened bottoms if 
you have them.


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## 123989 (Jul 30, 2018)

You are not supposed to put them on top per directions, the go on top of the brood chambers.


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## 123989 (Jul 30, 2018)

it states right on the instructions that it kills male and female.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

I have tried MAQS twice. I followed the directions to the LETTER and applied them in low 70 to upper 60 degree temperatures. The entrance reducers were removed and an upper entrance opening for more than adequate ventilation. BOTH times my hives experienced what I consider to be excessive bee & brood kills, a couple of hive absonded and I am waiting and watching to observe if the surviving hives still have queens. 

NOD customer support is of NO help and in my opinion takes a combative stand that is akin to attacking the customer and covering their corporate backside. 

In my opinion and experience, I don't believe formic acid products are safe to use on honey bees as each and every time I have, the hive just stops nearly all activity other than cleaning out the dead bees and larva. No foraging or anything like that, the queens stop laying, and in more than a few cases die. I treated about 50 hives this season with these disastrous results and similar results last season but only a few hives. Fortunately I did not treat all of my hives with MAQS and the next day when I checked on the treated hives and observed the disaster that ensued, I immediately stopped and went back to OAV. I decided to give MAQS another try this season because I treated with MAQS at about 78 degrees last season thinking perhaps I treated them when it was too warm. By the way ALL of the hives that I treated with OAV are doing fantastic. I will NEVER use MAQS, Formic Pro, or any formic acid product again.........ever. The primary reason I used MAQS both times was that I commitments that did not allow me the time to do thermal or repeated OAV treatements. 

I will continue on with OAV and thermal treatment. 

My suspicion is that the MAQS are not being properly stored at or below 77 degrees as per NOD instructions in some cases by the retailer or perhaps the user. Storing MAQS in elevated temperatures I believe accelerates the formic acid's degradation of the paper wrappers around the MAQS and destroys the wrapper's ability to properly regulate the release of the formic acid vapor. This I believe to be the case whether or not the MAQS container has expired or not. (On edit) This may account for the wide variance in the experiences for MAQS users. 

Again, I STRONGLY recommend NOT to use MAQS, Formic Pro, or any other formic acid product as there is no way to tell if they have been properly stored or not and retailers are selling them only a few weeks from the package expiration date without warning the customer about using expried MAQS. There are a more than enough Varroa Mite treatment products out there that are not nearly as harmful or destructive to your bees as well as risking the crap shoot of whether you may have purchased and improperly stored container of MAQS or use them close to or slightly after the expiration date. Would you buy personal medications or food for yourself or your family with a track record of problems like MAQS???

Repeat after me.......JUST SAY NO!


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

been using formic since mite away II, never had a problem, you make the call.


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## 123989 (Jul 30, 2018)

That is really odd as I have just treated all mine with no issues. No major losses, no lost queens. I do not understand everyone talking about top ventilation. I can find no where in the Formic Pro instructions where it calls for or extra ventilation. I have slotted inner covers and that is it.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Take everyone's reported results with a grain of salt, including mine. 
I've been using OAV exclusively for several years, but last year due to time constraints with family and work challenges I did not have time to do a series of OAV for the fall treatments, and used Formic Pro instead. It worked wonderfully with no detectable brood or bee damage, and the hives came out this past spring in excellent shape. I treated with it again this fall and I'm really pleased with the results. 

I was very hesitant to use the product due to reports of queen failure and extensive brood damage, but those fears turned out to be a non factor, at least for me. Not sure what is happening with those who are experiencing negative results, but it seems to work well for me when following the product application instructions closely.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

Live Oak - just wondering if you've tried Apiguard and if so, what is your experience with it?


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

e-spice said:


> Live Oak - just wondering if you've tried Apiguard and if so, what is your experience with it?


I don't have any experience using it.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Another take on the situation here.... Up the road from me, a buddy had mite counts at 0/300 in July. He decided to do MAQS anyways in Sept, then again in mid Oct. Before the Oct treatment, his mite counts were low. Well, post Oct treatment, his mite DROP on the bottom board is sky high. This was a hive that was clean through summer, mind you.

It was not likely a failure of MAQS - not likely those mites were even born in that hive. I know that there is a "beekeeper" up the road with 2 hives he does not do anything with, except watch. I think those hives are crashing. My apiary is in flight distance of those unmanaged 2 hives, and my buddy's hives. I have mite DROPS on the bottom board ranging from 40 to 2000, on 14 full strength hives. I did not treat at all this summer, as my mite counts in June and July were 0/300. 

So I am reading from my alcohol wash results (low through summer) and my mite drops post treatment (ranging from very low to very high) that SOME of my hives went robbing from my neighbor's unmanaged hives. And I am reading that ALL of my buddy's hives went robbing. And that is yielding a crazy high number of mites flowing off these unmanaged hives - like 10000 apiece. 

I will be checking on a fly day in Dec - are that neighbor's unmanaged hives flying? Betcha they won't be... of course, a feral hive could be the source of mites too.


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

I think you experienced a product failure, caused by poor storage conditions. I have seen multiple complaints in other groups from maqs ordered on sale that was near the expiration date. I feel that the retailers are not storing them properly. Lord knows that they are exposed to extreme heat when shipped in august as well. Then it sounds like the storage you provided was no better. 

The medium containing the acid begins to break down in the heat, releasing the acid. Effects can vary from releasing too much initially upon application (which I attribute queen and brood losses to) to having gassed off enough formic prior to application to do a less than adequate job killing mites (your outcome here).


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