# R. Russell queens



## SpeckledPup

Robert posted this on his site.

At this point it looks like we are going to have to postpone shipping queens until April 16th... at that time we will be shipping more than we usually do per day so we can catch back up as quickly as possible... the office is a total mess... a large nuc yard was hit as well, and while we were able to straighten up the majority of the nucs, they will definitely be set back from the damages... this whole week is calling for thunderstorms, so we won't be able to make a clear assessment of how bad and what it will take to get them back on track until next week... I am thankful for all the help that everyone is offering us, and a few guys from other operations have already arrived as well as our staff from other states, so we have a strong work force working on what they can each time the weather gives us a chance... we are still trying to answer emails but the ladies are working from laptops and cell phones at the moment, and the internet connection is very slow compared to the hard wired office, so hang in there while they work through that... thank you everyone for understanding...


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## StevenG

Thanks Becky,
I couldn't get to their site....
Regards,
Steven


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## SmokeEater2

I ordered a SunKist queen Feb. 25th. I received an email saying that She shipped today. Perfect timing too, I've got a colony that is busting at the seams that will donate some brood and honey for a new hive.


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## mrsl

Steven,

I have to access their site using Internet Explorer; can't get there from Google (our state game & fish site is the same way here); try IE & see if that works.


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## millerwb

I ordered a few weeks ago as well. Received an email that mine shipped today as well. Looking forward to receiving them this week. Not a moment too soon.


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## blainenay

StevenG said:


> Was wondering if anyone who has ordered queens from R. Russell has received them yet?


I placed my order on March 16 and paid in full on that date. To date, I have received no acknowledgement of my order from Russell Apiaries. All attempts to communicate with them have failed.


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## theriverhawk

If you paid via PayPal, check your account. If there is a charge, then they received the order.


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## blainenay

theriverhawk said:


> If you paid via PayPal, check your account. If there is a charge, then they received the order.


The charge is there. They have my money -- paid in full. I'm leaving town on June 13 for three months of work away from home. If I don't get my queens by then, they will die in the Post Office. I planned my order based on my work schedule -- not on a supplier that can't even answer the phone.

I confess that I have myself to blame. Had I googled Russell Apiaries, I would have learned that their failure to deliver in a reasonable amount of time and their failure communicate has been a chronic problem for years.


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## Specialkayme

blainenay said:


> I placed my order on March 16 and paid in full on that date.


What shipping date did you request?


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## blainenay

Specialkayme said:


> What shipping date did you request?


May 28.


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## Specialkayme

It is not uncommon for an agricultural based operation to be behind by a week or two. Considering everything that has happened to Russell's this year (tornadoes, destroyed buildings, worker deaths) I'd be shocked if he wasn't AT LEAST three weeks behind in his orders.

If you requested a shipping date for May 28, but you are leaving for three months on June 13th, I would say you planned poorly.


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## blainenay

Specialkayme said:


> ....I would say you planned poorly.


As I said before, I confess that I have myself to blame. Had I googled Russell Apiaries, I would have learned that their failure to deliver in a reasonable amount of time and their failure communicate has been a chronic problem for years. Indeed, I "planned poorly."


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## Specialkayme

Your poor planning had little to do with the supplier. It had to do with requesting a queen two weeks before you were leaving for three months. The delay of a week or two could have happened to any queen producer, Russell included.


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## jim lyon

Blainenay booked and paid almost 10 weeks before a scheduled ship date which was over 2 weeks before his scheduled departure dosent strike me as unreasonable. That is almost 3 months that Russells had to work with. We should all plan so poorly.....


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## Specialkayme

jim lyon said:


> That is almost 3 months that Russells had to work with.


And he should take precedence over individuals that booked 6 months in advance? A year in advance? I don't think so. When the breeder gets behind, it's a first come first serve thing. Three months is nothing for this type of operation.

Plus, my comment had more to do with the amount of time it takes to install a queen, rather than the requested shipping date. If you plant a queen in a hive, you should wait at least a week before checking to see if she was accepted. If you gave yourself two weeks to plant a queen and make sure she is accepted before walking away for three months, that doesn't give enough time. One week to see if the queen is accepted, and if she isn't then what do you do? You have one week to get a replacement and repeat the process? Impossible. We all know any breeder will not have a 100% take rate. That's all assuming they arrive ON THE EXACT DATE YOU WANTED. I have yet to find a breeder (other than the "johnny on the spot" guys) that isn't usually running behind by about a week by this time of year every year.

Poor planning all around.


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## jim lyon

Specialkayme said:


> And he should take precedence over individuals that booked 6 months in advance? A year in advance? I don't think so. When the breeder gets behind, it's a first come first serve thing. Three months is nothing for this type of operation.
> 
> I have yet to find a breeder (other than the "johnny on the spot" guys) that isn't usually running behind by about a week by this time of year every year.
> 
> Poor planning all around.


And of course I never said that he should be asking for preference over those folks who have waited longer, this really isnt about preference at all, its just about whether it is a reasonable time frame and yes of course it is a reasonable time frame, because it is the one that the Russell's agreed to. Once someone banks your payment and gives you a delivery date you are well within reason to expect delivery on or about the time you were given. What his plans are for installing and caring for his queens after delivery is really not the issue here either. As far as I know he had made provisions for someone to look after them while he was gone, or maybe he is running an experiment on what happens if you leave bees unattended for 3 months I don't know and neither do you because, again, its not the issue here the queens are his to throw away if he chooses. Given the fact that Beehugheshoney recently gave testimonial that he has seen his facility in California where approximately 5,000 queens are shipped per week and that he had has never experienced a delay with Mr. Russell and has actually been offered them ahead of schedule the expectation of ontime delivery becomes even more realistic. It is unfortunate that you have yet to find a breeder that isnt running behind by at least a week because that sure hasnt been my experience through the years with the breeders I have dealt with.


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## bnm1000

Heck - if that is the way all queen producers operate then why don't they just state "send us your money and we'll send you a queen when we darn well want to and don't harass us with phone calls or emails because we won't respond. Thanks for your hard earned money....". 

It amazes me how this thread always ends up blaming people who sent their money based on a promise that wasn't kept. If it is so unpredictable, don't cash peoples checks until you can deliver the goods.


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## NDnewbeek

Over the years, I have purchased a lot of queens from a fair number of different producers, both big and small. I have never had an order be more than one week late - and that has happened rarely.


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## Barry

Specialkayme said:


> Poor planning all around.


Obviously you can't stand it when someone speaks about their experience that is less than stellar regarding Russell Apiary. To jump all over a customer for "only" allowing a two week time frame to hive a queen is amazing. As Jim said, that's no one's business except the buyer's and has no bearing on the delay in shipment. Isn't it time you let the parties involved work things out and let both bad and good experiences be said without always trying to explain it away?


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## marenostrum

The way things end up with is sad. In fact, from the end of last winter I was waiting for the outcomes of the queens believed to be the most exiting step after the invention of wheel. Some other time, lets say.


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## Broke-T

Specialkayme, I guess I am the Johnny on the spot breeder. I book less than I know I can produce each week. That way I ship when people need queens, not when I can get around to it. If my customer orders queens for a particular date, he usually has splits made up waiting on those queens. If you consistantly overbook queens you can never catch up, sounds like poor planning on the queen producers part to me.

Johnny


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## camero7

All I know is that "Johnny on the spot" ships his queens on time and the product is great. Can't ask for more than that. To top it off he's very reasonable in price.Another plus.


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## heus

Instead of the Seinfeld Soup Nazi its the "Bee Nazi." "No bees for you!"


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## blainenay

Specialkayme said:


> ....Poor planning all around.


Would it be unreasonable for me to at least be able to cancel my order? I can't even do that because Russell Apiaries will not respond to any of my attempts to contact them! No responses to mail or email. Nobody answers the phone. Their voice mail box has been full for at least a month.

Again, my biggest mistake was failing to google Russell Apiaries which would have informed me that poor communication and late deliveries has been their mode of operation for at least 3 years. One can't blame bad weather -- even a tornado -- for a long-term failure to run a business in a business-like manner.


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## Davebcrzy

I ordered a Sunkist Cordovan January 2012. I gave three possible ship dates. Two in March and one in April. I received my queen first week in May. I have no complaints about the delivery time. However, here it is June 9 and the hive she was placed in is already dead. She laid less than one frame of eggs and then stopped laying. Not sure what happened. Could have been something I did or could have been just a bad queen.


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## TwinkieBee

Mr. Nay cancelled his order on 6/5. The funds were reversed then. His queens were caged and in the Georgia hub being bundled when they crew went to print his label and realized that the funds had been reversed. His queens were sent to someone else as a result. 5 days later than he requested. You can't please everyone. If 5% is late, that's unfortunate but not so terrible given the limited staff and high volume of orders. What's terrible is that 5% race here to make a big deal out of every delay. Then there are those that play devils advocate to cause panic and distrust. People read this and flood us with emails and calls. That's why we are so behind on responses. 50 queens a week is a lemonade stand next to a cola company. I alone deal with that many customers in a day and I am part-time. Of course the service will because I better with so few to cater to. I'm not suppose to be "fueling these fires" I just thought people should try to remember that there are two sides to every story and the devils advocates here make it seem a lot worse than it is. There are more rave reviews on the consumer reports than concerned customers yet there are more posts by the devils advocates than any actual customers. I don't have the time or energy to discuss it. Just want you all to think about these things when you are on here.


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## Keth Comollo

I ordered a Moonbeam a couple of months ago for late June delivery be interesting to see if it shows up. I have already been charged for it. I leave July 1 for 10 days of camping with my sons. If it shows up then it will surely die.


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## Specialkayme

Broke-T said:


> If you consistantly overbook queens you can never catch up, sounds like poor planning on the queen producers part to me.


You may be a "Johnny on the spot" breeder . . . literally . . . lol. But how many queens do you sell a week, or a season? The fewer you have, the easier it is to calculate how many queens you need to breed and the easier it is to stay ahead of those orders. Are you turning any queen orders away?

For example, if you sell 20 queens a week on average, if you count all your variables together, you should probably have enough mating nucs for 40 queens a week. Some weeks you may end up with 20 good queens, others you may end up with 35 queens, and on a rare occasion you may end up with 15. Overall the average wins out. But the larger the operation gets the greater the swing in either direction the numbers get. If you sell 2,000 queens a week, and you have mating nucs for 4,000 queens a week, some weeks you may end up with 3,500 queens. Others you may end up with 1,000 queens. When you are selling 2,000 a week, and you missed a week by one thousand, it's tough to recover. I don't consider that poor planning on the breeder's part. I consider that statistics.


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## Specialkayme

blainenay said:


> Would it be unreasonable for me to at least be able to cancel my order?


You already did. 

You disputed your order through paypal on the same day that they were bundling your queens to be shipped out. Their website states that if you dispute the order through paypal, the order is deemed canceled. 

Looks like you got your wish.


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## Broke-T

Specialkayme said:


> You may be a "Johnny on the spot" breeder . . . literally . . . lol. But how many queens do you sell a week, or a season? The fewer you have, the easier it is to calculate how many queens you need to breed and the easier it is to stay ahead of those orders. Are you turning any queen orders away?
> 
> For example, if you sell 20 queens a week on average, if you count all your variables together, you should probably have enough mating nucs for 40 queens a week. Some weeks you may end up with 20 good queens, others you may end up with 35 queens, and on a rare occasion you may end up with 15. Overall the average wins out. But the larger the operation gets the greater the swing in either direction the numbers get. If you sell 2,000 queens a week, and you have mating nucs for 4,000 queens a week, some weeks you may end up with 3,500 queens. Others you may end up with 1,000 queens. When you are selling 2,000 a week, and you missed a week by one thousand, it's tough to recover. I don't consider that poor planning on the breeder's part. I consider that statistics.


Last year I sold around 15 per week to get a feel for how things would work out. This year I doubled that to 30 t0 35 per week plus 10 to 30 virgins. I am still learning but plan to go to 50 or 60 per week next year. I have been booked up every week since I started shipping the 1st week of april and have lost some orders because someone needed queens this week and I was sold out. But so far I haven't had to tell someone I can't ship you what I promised.

You are right about the variability of queens produced per week. But the size of the operation doesn't matter. If I am short 20% one week and 20% over the next its the same as a big operation being over or under 20%.

I do not bank any queens. If I have extra I call up next weeks customers to see if they want theirs early, many do. That way if next week is short I already have some breathing room. I also have a will call list of people who might want queens. Any queens not sold I use in my own operation to requeen or make nucs.

Most large queen rearing operations bank excess for use in the next week in case they have a shortage. I have seen several post by Robert explaining about banking queens.

I still consider it poor planing on the producers part if you cannot deliver queens and responses in a timely manner.

Johnny


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## Barry

Specialkayme said:


> Looks like you got your wish.


What he really wished for was communication and bees arriving when he asked for them giving plenty of lead time. The refund was only wanted after he found himself in a bind when the bees didn't show up as planned.

"The charge is there. They have my money -- paid in full. I'm leaving town on June 13 for three months of work away from home. If I don't get my queens by then, they will die in the Post Office. I planned my order based on my work schedule -- not on a supplier that can't even answer the phone."


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## blainenay

Specialkayme said:


> Looks like you got your wish.


Not quite.

1 - I needed queens. I didn't get them.
2 - I disputed the order through PayPal nearly 2 weeks after requested delivery date and 6 futile attempts to communicate. I waited as long as I dared to initiate the dispute so that the transaction could go though without having the queens arrive after my departure date. Only after the dispute did I get a response from Russell Apiaries -- a claim that I canceled my order (I did not). I do not have a refund.

No, I did not get my wish.

One good outcome though: At least the queens won't die in in the Post Office.


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## Specialkayme

blainenay said:


> 2 - I disputed the order through PayPal nearly 2 weeks after requested delivery date and 6 futile attempts to communicate.


Not true.

You requested a shipping date of May 28. Two weeks have not passed SINCE THIS POSTING. You began complaining on here about it two days ago. At which point your order had already been canceled because you disputed it on Paypal. You didn't wait two weeks. You didn't wait "nearly two weeks."



blainenay said:


> Only after the dispute did I get a response from Russell Apiaries -- a claim that I canceled my order (I did not).


Their website states their policy. If you dispute the transaction through Paypal, your order is deemed canceled. You did cancel your order when you were too impatient to wait. If you are satisfied that your order got canceled, I don't see the point in continuing to complain on here. If you didn't want your order canceled, why did you dispute the transaction with Paypal?

I'm not saying everything has run like clockwork at Russell's this year. But you should call things like they are. If you waited one week and didn't want your order anymore, fine. Don't tell me you waited two weeks, then magically your order got canceled when we both know that isn't true.


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## bnm1000

Is SpecialKayMe Dr. Russell or something? I have never seen so much time spent by a disinterested third party attacking consumers who have experienced less than stellar service from a vendor.

Okay - granted Dr. Russell must make some kind of magic bees, and that is great. But why the aggressive attacks at people who have spent their hard earned money purchasing queens that they never received, or have received late.

I can understand how many of the people are upset - maybe they are just hobbyists, but it still doesn't make it okay not to provide them with good customer service and contact. For many people - $100 - $200 is a lot of money, and to have sent it to someone and them not deliver the goods, and then to be unable to contact them either by phone or email, is very upsetting.

And I don't think it is wrong for people who have received poor service to come on a forum and state as much. No one complains when someone spreads good information by word of mouth. People posting their bad experiences help inform others into making good decisions with their money.


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## Specialkayme

No, I'm not Dr. Russell. I've been on this site before he showed up (selling to individuals) and he has long since moved away from this site. He considers it a waste of his time.

No doubt individuals should inform others of poor service. I'm actually an advocate of that. The invisible hand always wins.

But if you _really_ got bad service, post it. Don't make it up. Don't exaggerate the truth. Don't tell me your order was two weeks late when it was 3 days late. Don't tell me you can't get a refund when you disputed an order through paypal and the vender already refunded your money.



bnm1000 said:


> People posting their bad experiences help inform others into making good decisions with their money.


And people lying about what happened, or exaggerating the truth, benefits no one, informs no one of anything, and prevents individuals from making truly informed decisions in the future.

Call things like they are. That's all I ask. If that's "aggressively attacking" someone, I apologize. I don't think so myself, as I think it's more about making someone accountable for what they say, but I understand where you are coming from and I'll try to be better in the future. More reasonable?


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## julysun

Specialkme, I agree with you.


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## Risky Beesness

I have no axe to grind here. In fact, I have been excited about acquiring some Russel queens in the future. I completely understand the agricultural, weather, hard luck issue. However, i do not understand the lack of communication issues. To me, that is a zero tolerance issue, when doing business on the internet. In today's technology, an immediate response and tracking info is something that even the most basic laymen (like myself) can achieve. There are tools out there through paypal, UPS, and Fedex, that make these things automatic. There is no excuse for a client to go days, weeks, or months without any communication or acknowledgement of their order. I'm sorry, but i don't care if you offered the cure for all diseases and pest and there was a waiting list. THIS ALONE would be enough to discourage me from placing an order. NO EXCUSES. JMHO and in no way am I questioning the quality od the product.


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## Keth Comollo

I thnk Russell Apiaries has gotten the message by now. Selling to the general public is a different game than to commercial apiaries. They responded to my email within 6 hours. If they desire an online retail presence they will get their act together. There are plenty of software tools for them to utilize to increase the customer experience. If they don't they will revert to providing queens to commercial operations as they have done and eliminate the sideliners and hobbyists like us. It is a financial decision they will make and we will all know soon enough. So far they have been forthright and honest with me. I look forward to introducing their Moonbeam genetics to my area.


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## MDenver

No need to get into the details (drama) of my order to Russell Apiaries because there is always room for debate but PayPal contacted him and he agreed to a refund. 

Got a notice from PayPal this evening telling me the refund was issued and then another about an hour later telling me it failed because it did not clear their account.

Just a heads up, looks like they have bigger problems brewing.


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## schmism

From someone outside looking in. 

1) i care to hear about customers who received poor customer support from a vendor they ordered products with.
2) I have no idea who's side is more true, but i have little reason to doubt a person who posts they have tried to get in contact with a vendor multipul times with no success. Only to finally get a response after a disputing the charge with a credit card company. Which is all to familiar story.
3) a vendor could have the best excuses in the world, or the worst. Doesn't matter, point is, IF they dont make an effort to communicate to EVERY customer, that there order has become delayed, especially with a time sensitive product, thats poor customer service period.
Oh and by my math....May 28 to june 10th is 1 day short of 2 weeks or "nearly 2 weeks". I dont what else you would call "nearly 2 weeks"?


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## blainenay

TwinkieBee said:


> Mr. Nay cancelled his order on 6/5. The funds were reversed then....


No refund as of 20 June.


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## theriverhawk

Twinkie...

So, do you call this poor service? In what way can you defend this?

1. Emailed regarding shipping dates, etc. before ordering. I did get a response and was told what to do in order to get them the week of my order(May 7).
2. Ordered and did what I was told.
3. The week of May 7 comes and goes. No emails letting me know the order is delayed. On the 11th, I did email just asking if I should expect them the next week. Got no response. 
4. May 21, I email because I know I am going to be traveling June 3-10 and am concerned that the queens would ship that week. 
5. May 23, I email the same concern again because of no response to first email. Got a response that the order would marked to NOT ship that week. Was asked if next week would actually work for me. I, of course, said HECK YES as long as they would arrive on or before Friday June 1st. 
6. On the 29th, I get an email from the USPS stating the queens had been shipped the 29th. 
7. Friday the 1st comes and goes with no queens. I talk to USPS and they state that the queens have a shipping # but that they were never actually picked up. WHAT???? In Russell's defense, this was a USPS issue...
8. Queens arrive Saturday, June 2nd. I am leaving 7:00AM on the 3rd for 9 days. Do I have time to run down to a yard to put queens in? Don't have much of a choice do I? 
9. 1 queen DOA along with all attendants, the other queens alive. Took pics of DOA queen and email to Rusell. Place 2 remaining in hives.
10. Received email from Russell saying they will mail replacement queen and will ship June 11th. I offered actually pay overnight shipping on the replacement queen. They graciously declined.
11. June 10, checked queens. Released but not laying. 
12. I'll skip ahead....June 18th, both queens are gone having never layed an egg. No replacement queen in the mail yet.
13. Today, the 20th, still no replacement queen and no responses to emails that I've sent.

So, have I communicated well enough and do I qualify for "poor service" based on your definition? Numerous times, I have either had the shipping dates come and go and have had no response to attempted communications. 

Seriously, you've got to stop defending the undefendable....my story pales compared to so many others. I only "lost" $100. Many have lost a great deal more.


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## Beezly

I'm confused hawk, #8 on YOUR list, leaving june 3rd for 9 days. Then # 11 on YOUR list, on the 10th, 7 days later checked the queens. Fuzzy math, or someone else checking your bees. 
If you had someone else checking the bees that is adept enough to see if they are laying or not they could also while you are still out of town on your 9 day trip, install a queen cage in the hive. I understand your frustration as a consumer. I also understand Docs issues and am not defending the response his company has given to some of their clients. BUT, how's this working for you? I also have ordered a queen from them recently. I will wait until it gets here, period, i know it will come. BUT if it absconds, gets rolled, i kill it, it doesn't lay a bazillion eggs in the first 24 hours, its color is not quite right, it smells like avocados, i will NOT expect a FREE replacement due to some issue that may be my fault or just nature. I will not consider this a fault of their customer service. Dude, you buy a cow, it don't give milk, takes 3 steps and dies, that's livestock. If they sold you a bad cow, that's one thing, BUT if you did something, which from your own posts does not discount this as a possibility, take some responsibility for the fact maybe YOUR actions or the hives they were introduced to had something to do with the failure. Maybe it did, maybe not. just saying it may be a possibility, and maybe a slam session here may not be the proper avenue for your angst.
I thought this was the regular forum, not consumer section where this should have been, OR the whine line. 
Maybe my meds are working right...
good luck to ya.


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## seal62

OK ,,,sometimes i just have to speak up ,,,and you all should now by now how near and dear this thread is to me soo opcorn: .The reasons the queens arent laying well is because they were banked ..Every word i say is not open to discssion ,,,its fact . I bought, picked up 25 sunkist nucs last yr ..to be picked up in early june ..I got the run around and didnt get them until aug 8th ..The ad said ..3-4 frames of brood with the same laying queen . What i got was old comb ..only 3 had brood and the rest banked queens .Lets not forget the slime covered honey frames with shb . I got a extra 5 queens in a bank : in case something got squished in transit . The truth is i got 4lbs of bees shaken into nucs , The extra queens werent extra ,,they just werent put in the box . When i talked to bob he said ,,,are there enough bees ? Meaning tough on the brood ..when i asked about why they werent laying ,,,he said ,,,thats expected from banked queens ,,,when i said something about the shb he said thats to be expected . Really ? ...i drove 2000 miles and spent 3000$ on the trip for this ? He said he stands behind his bees and would send me packs to make up for it . Well its about july . I made a monster mistake and bought 10 moonbeams last june ,,,not a word about that 400$ . Now that i knew the deal i asked for a refund in april ,,,twinky got a pm where i asked for a refund ,,,did she bother to bring that up ? What sunkist i have left are up to 2 boxs ...for a overwintered nuc thats not impressive . I called pay pal and my bank ..the bank is a bigger hammer because they can bring charges . The product is worth the wait is just a fairy tale ..if you get a product . There is more to this than meets the eye ,bob talks a big game that he cant back up . Boys ,,,ladies ,,he's a snake oil salesman ...and for anyone that cares to call me out on this i got 100$ on the table that says he goes bankrupt to dodge his responsibilities before the season is out . In my vids i say where every queen is from ,,,eyes dont lie . Heres the worst http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtEdd32vO1c&feature=plcp . Its your money but if i defended someone ,,id rather go Adi Amin. PS ...i never did get one taker for the moonbeams @ 375$ ..its not to late to transfer that transaction .,,,seeing voice mail is full and they have selective email . Three words for you ..you were warned ...ok 4 ...repeatedly


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## Keth Comollo

We have been warned. If my Moonbeam shows up I will be shocked at this point. They did charge my card before shipping the product which I believe is a violation of FTC law which is, ladies and gentleman, is a violation of a Federal Law. This can't be good as my brother is a lawyer that loves doing pro bono work for me. ;-)


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## giant pumpkin peep

my moonbeams are doing well, nice like puppy dogs. Some of the other queens arnt doign so hot, but its probly becuase I had no time to introduce everyone correctly. live and learn. If I was to complain to russells I would be one of the many who have caused the reason for russell to go back to commercials. Was there some duds in this batch? with out a doubt yes, but I know that the 8 splits I made one day didnt all have duds, while 5 I did the other day all had top of the line queens. Learnt my lesson. I screwed up, oh well.


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## theriverhawk

Beezly,
Are you really gonna make me out to be the bad guy based on a typo and me coming back a day or two earlier? 

I have NOT asked for money back on the queens that were released and then mysteriously "disappeared" before laying. The replacement queen I am speaking of in #12 is the DOA queen that I was told would be shipped on the 11th of this month. I do expect either a replacement queen or a refund. EVERY queen breeder does that. I, along with dozens of other folks, am still waiting on this replacement queen, again, that I WAS TOLD WOULD BE SHIPPED ON THE 11th. 

Twinkie is a hack...and you are the next sucker/victim. You just sit back and wait on that queen to show up. If you only run a hive or two, you can afford it. If you're like so many of us that have future income that is dependent up the timing of splits, then we have the right to be angry. I did EVERYTHING I was told by Russell in order to get the queens by a certain date. I have a calendar that I operate on in order to make splits, grow them to make it thru winter so that I can split and sell nucs next spring. The one month delay on those three queens and now loss of all three has set me back over 6 weeks on 3 hives. I will not be able to make queens off of any of the 3 queens. In a nutshell, because of this, I will be unable to make 9 additional splits...$120X9=$1080 that I have potentially lost. 

Over and over, folks are chiming in here sharing horrible experiences where they were mislead/decieved. I felt this way at first, backed off of it and even sent an apology email. After seeing the results of the queens I received, hearing stories of folks receiving "banked queens" and DOA queens not being honored with a replacement, I for one, am now of the belief that this group is exactly what folks are saying about them. The sad thing is that my story/experience PALES compared to what others have lost. 

So, again, you just sit back and wait on that queen and nit pick our statements while ignoring the big picture....


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## honeyshack

theriverhawk said:


> 8. Queens arrive Saturday, June 2nd. I am leaving 7:00AM on the 3rd for 9 days. Do I have time to run down to a yard to put queens in? Don't have much of a choice do I?
> 11. June 10, checked queens. Released but not laying.
> 12. I'll skip ahead....June 18th, both queens are gone having never layed an egg.
> .


I am not commenting on the service or anything of that nature...upfront here.
What i am commenting on is the loss of the laying queens.
June 2 or 3rd you installed
June 10 checked for release and laying, noting nothing going on
Here is the crux of that problem. When installing queens, place them in so you can see the queen candy openning when you check 4 days later at the earliest! Place the cage in such a way that if the candy is not gone it will take very little to release, preferably with no frame removal. This is very important. On day 4 from install, only open the lid, check and if the candy is gone, close the lid. On day 12 then check for laying. Checking or disturbing the hive any more before that period and they will ball the queen. She needs time to go over the frames and spread her pheremones as well as to get the new eggs hatched out so the bees can get to work.
Edit:
One other thing. When we kill a queen or split and then re queen the next day, it is important to quickly check the frames. This year especially I am seeing the hives get started earlier than normal on making cells. I am finding that if I requeen the next day and if i am close to the 24 hour mark, they have already started cells. What I have found is they have superceded the new queen. Why, there were some small emergency supercedures. Those emergency cells are tricky. Some of them are very small and runty. They would almost pass for drone cells.


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## GeezLouise

TwinkieBee said:


> ...I don't have the time or energy to discuss it. Just want you all to think about these things when you are on here.


Next time, "We dropped the ball, we apologize, and thank you for letting us know so we can make it right" would be more productive than stonewalling and excuses. It's okay to be overwhelmed, not so much to shift blame.


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## NY_BLUES

seal62 said:


> I made a monster mistake and bought 10 moonbeams last june ,,,not a word about that 400$ .


If you got burned on a bunch of nucs, why would you place an order for queens? Im confused?


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## Beezly

Hawk,
By no means am i trying to make you out to be the bad guy. If you came back early, ok, don't care. I have been reading all of the threads about these issues here and on russells site. You have made it a point to be very detailed in your many extracted posts and i just saw a couple of inconsistancies. I also don't care about typos. If i misunderstood that you were just waiting on 1 replacement, then i guess i misread something in the maze of posts concerning this. 
My main point is that many have stated their issues here, and should. You seem particularly determined to get your point hammered home and i was just asking how is that working for you?

As for my order, i do not run just 1 hive, far from it, but due to some of what has been said here ordered just 1 in hopes of getting it. If i don't, then yep, i am a sucker. But you won't see me coming on here...many, many times to share my frustration about it. I'll lick my wounds and try to get my money back thru steps available to me.
No your not the bad guy. Just wondering when it will be that enough is enough.
and i still think all of these threads concerning this should have been in consumer section, not muddying the regular forum.
Good luck to all of us.


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## theriverhawk

Honeyshack...

That's hogwash....I've been keeping bees with my father since I was 5. On my own since my late 20's. I'm 45 now. In all those years, I've had 3. Yes, only 3 queens that were balled. 2 of them were the SK queens from this year. I've released probably hundreds of queens into hives from cages. To say that they are going to ball a queen because I open up the hive, pull a frame, see her and put the frame back in 8 days later(WITH NO SMOKE I MIGHT ADD...NOTHING), it just plain, flat out HOGWASH. I've opened a hive in fewer days and have seen the queen numerous times without this result. Plain hogwash. I've gotten PM's and emails from others on here that have had the same exact experience. 

Beez, you're right. It's not getting anything accomplished by chiming in here. Most of us are responding to Twinkie's unbelievable/crazy defense of them. She is really the one that tries to turn the table on us jilted customers and somehow make it look like we are the one's at fault for coming on here and stating the truth. Funny thing is, every time she writes some hack of a defense, ANOTHER jilted customer pops on. My detailed response(with typos...oops), was a response to her trying to justify some poor service by them. I figured if I wrote out a more detailed experience, it might be more difficult for her to defend...and, again, my story PALES compared to others. I lost $100. Others have lost $1000's of dollars and have seen nothing in return. But you're right. It is beating a dead horse. They'll no longer be offering to the public after this year. Twinkie is trying to almost blame us for that happening, but in reality, they did it to themselves. For me, it's back to the NICOT system that I use a couple of times a year to make a batch of queens for splits. I will refrain from any additional comments....unless someone else responds with a ridiculous defense of their customer service.


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## beeG

those who have been upset over the CS of RA.. How are you going to react, and feel when things are made right? because all I have read about RA is of company owned by a man who does everything to make it right with the customer. These issues will never happen again because this is the last year RA is selling to the little guy. So RA identified the issue and is doing everything to avoid it. I have seen a few apologize. River RA already told you they would replace the dead queen, and you know as well as every other beekeeper about releasing queens. Did you just set them loose out of the cages? As for seals complaint he just seems hell bent to not get his money or a replacement, he seems more determined to mar RA reputation. As for being illegal to take a credit card before a client reseves merchandise. That is hog wash. How many merchants give products into the control of a customer before they are paid???? None with half a brain that I know of.. the largest percentage of internet transactions are pay first. A business sending product before payment will not last very long, not in this world. 
I defend because I feel some of you are making fools of yourself. Sure you are harming RA but you are also harming yourself. If any of you become queen breeders or sell supplies, I personaly would not want to do business with you. Because how you are behaving is not professonal. And shows signs of a quick and unresonable temper. Doing any business with quick tempered and unresoanble people is nonhe productive. This beekeeping community is a small one, and with me writing this and if I became a queen breeder or sold supplies how would this post effect me?? In my view positivly because I am sure the worse of you would not want to do business with me.. Any business owner knows the worse part of business are the few crazies. I would seriously think before I wrote about negetive experinces. A good rule to go by is react as if RA was your friend . If by next year you are still disgruntled and it is not of your doing, then go for it. but all of you know what has happened here, with the bad weather, the deaths, and the understanding RA has admitted this is too much for them, so bare with them. Yet you keep on coming and get worse.


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## frazzledfozzle

Seal62 I've just checked out your youtube video re the Sunkists.

I dont see any honey or pollen in those frames not a drop? if she dosn't have at least a couple of frames of honey and some pollen she's not going to lay.

I've had a number of "lame" queens they dont need all their legs to walk and haven't noticed any big difference in egg laying ability.


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## theriverhawk

BeeG, this is RA's last year selling to "the little guy" because so many "little guys" have had such bad service that folks are out there talking about it. Is that our fault? As a matter of fact, you and many others, probably owe some folks on here a big fat THANK YOU. As for the release of the queens...geeze. I don't think I need to defend myself but here goes. I make a nuc/split/hive queenless for 24 hours, place the queen cage in the hive and allow the hive to release her on their own....JUST LIKE THE REST OF THE BEEK WORLD DOES IT AND HOW I'VE DONE IT FOR 20 YEARS AND MY FATHER HAD DONE IT FOR 40 YEARS. RA said they would replace the queen and ship June the week of June 11th. It's the 21st and STILL NO QUEEN. For the love of pete, do you "defenders" not get it? OVER AND OVER these folks tell you something and they don't do it. OVER AND OVER!!! That's what folks keep saying on here and, for some odd reason, people keep defending them??? BeeG, you can sit there and say you'd never buy nucs/queens/bees from me. Fine. But you've never worked with me. We've worked with them and we are warning folks. It's folks like you that hop on here midway and try to chime in and defend them having had NOTHING to do with the situation. Have you been mislead by them? No. We have. Do you they owe you $$? No. Others on here are. Scroll thru some earlier posts. A "refund" was denied by the bank because the funds weren't there. Did they say they'd send you queens on certain dates and not send them? No. Others on here have experienced that. Have you had to send them email after email, phone call after phone call with no response? No. Folks on here have. 
I can guarantee you this...there have been folks that have read these posts that have chosen to not place orders because of our experiences. In some ways, our experiences have been a gift to them. Again, mine is minor compared to others. The point is mute after this summer. I, for one, am glad of that.
You can say we look "foolish". Fine. I am willing to be a "fool for the truth" any day.


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## beeG

river I have queens ordered myself.. heck just today I emailed them to add to that order.. I ordered my queens last year.. Why I did not get them. I asked to wait because of my possible usurpation. I then emailed them that my hives are now ready. I got emailed back that I was put back on this list, and I will wait. river I do not think you are a bad person, I just think you have jumped on the bandwagon. You know they are having issues, so why beat the dead horse? Have they told you No we will not help you? I think with all this lynch mob mentality, just caught you up in the scheme to try and keep kicking RA when it already admits it is down ,and is working as fast as possible to make things right. Is bee source really the place to resolve your issue with RA? Or are you just posting to send more harm their way? Did you purchase your bees through bee source? I mean come on. Anyone who writes negative warning emails on bee source are not doing so to rectify business dealings with RA!! They are doing it for negative attention. With RA claiming they are no longer selling small orders, then who the heck are you warning now??? Defenders as I am called and others like me, just do not find these post productive . I personally feel that once RA makes it right with you.. You will feel very bad. RR has written so many valuable post on this forum.. He has been very willing to help anyone who asked him through this forum. I just find it very heartless to keep attacking the man when he is down through this public forum.


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## theriverhawk

Is it jumping on the bandwagon when you say "me too" and then have to defend yourself for saying "me too"?

You may not find it productive, but some do. I know I would have found posts regarding folks' negative/positive experiences productive if I had been smart enough to research even more before I ordered. You don't find it productive because you've ordered and, it appears, you don't really care when/if you get your queens. Chime back in when/if you haven't received your queens and you're trying to get a refund/email returned/phone call answered like so many other folks or they've told you when you're queens will ship and you go ahead and make your splits based on that date...and they don't show. Or perhaps you won't really care if you do/don't get any of those. That's your choice to be treated poorly and not fight back. Or maybe you will. Until you've walked down our road, it's just not really fair for anyone to try to say we are the ones being unfair/unreasonable. 

I'm done here...you can just keep putting your head in the sand.


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## beeG

Oh I care when my queens come.. But I also see the obvious, and me making a fool out of myself is not going to make my queens arrive any faster. As for negative posters one in particular( Laura) could not stop with the venom. She slashed RA bloody.. She then had everything made right so well, that she begged to have her post removed. At least the woman had enough humanity to feel embarrassed. But then again us women fight better with our tongues. Which some men take too much to heart. 
River if RA does not make it right for you then OK, But if he does, how are you going to feel? and again how are these post helping people? are you trying to destroy his commercial business?
I also have no idea how making splits has to do with getting new queens? I have been making splits ,and I have tagged the hives I need to requeen.. This bee keeping business is not something you can get upset about if plans do not go exactly as planned. If you can not roll with the flow.. I do not see how you can grow. So many things seem to happen. I had equipment ordered from another company put on back order after I paid ,which caused me distress. Which taught me I better be prepared next time, and not wait until the last minute for badly needed woodware. It seems this is the nature of this industry, hurry up and wait, then learn real quick how to improvise, and deal with the cards you are dealt. . You can not control the weather, and you can not keep beating a dead horse. I do believe RA knows they have issues with CS.. And I do believe they have taken measures to avoid a repeat of this year by closing down small order sells.


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## Stonefly7

Very good point BG. RS is a fine person with good ethics and values. His company made an error by going to the "I want it now" consumer that they were unprepared to deal with. End of story. I believe they will make it right with everyone in due time. They also have a plan to put breeders in every state, so you can deal with someone local. 

Sol made a great point early on about grafting some of your own queens. I believe everyone should give it a try. I have split many a hive and let them raise their own in a crunch. As we work the yards, we crack them off all the time. Re-queen later as I am better prepared. Most folks are afraid to give it a try. 

Hawk, next year, give me a shout early on and I will bring you some cells, or if you prefere laying queens for free if you would like to have some new genitics. I have English Buckfast, or Danish Buckfast. I am just south of you, so its not that far. Then take five of those nucs, and make them nothing but brood builders. Keep yourself supplied through your own queen yards and nucs. You will have more than you can handle before you know it.

Kind regards


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## theriverhawk

The only fools here are the ones that 1. Defend RA having had ZERO dealings with them and 2. Those that call those of us that have had poor dealings with them fools. 

If "making good" is actually doing what you said you would do long after you said you would do it, then I'll be happy. But there's nothing else warranted on my part. Nothing else is due. Over and over, they have said they would do things and haven't. When they do finally "make it right", they are owed NOTHING from us. What are we supposed to do?? "Good news guys!!! RA came through 2 months late!! They really are upstanding!!!" Upstanding is doing what you said you would do THE FIRST TIME or in as timely of a manner and as gracious as possible. 

If you ordered something from Walmart online and it didn't show up when it was supposed to, what would you do? You'd call them, email them and maybe even stop by the store. But if they never answered your calls, emails or didn't allow you on the property, you'd be mad. But when the product did finally show up, your reaction isn't going to be, "Hey, those Walmart folks aren't so bad after all. At least they did finally send it to me. Hey everybody, WALMART'S GREAT!!!" No...you'd tell everyone you knew to avoid ordering from Walmart online. 

I'm such a fool that I've received, just today, a THANK YOU for posting this. He was about to order based upon their website only. But because this thread was at the top of the forum, and he read about all of our experiences, he chose to order elsewhere. 

I keep hearing, "good folks", "ethical", etc....I'm not going to doubt their intensions and their hearts. But their actions have spoken louder. 
My past experiences with purchasing queens:
1. They answer the phone and return emails. 
2. If they can't fill the order, then they say , "I can't fill the order". RA takes the order and the $$ and doesn't tell if they can fill it by the date you asked. I find it hard to believe that they are unaware that they can't fill our orders. This is not an "I want it now" mentality. It's really a "I'd like for you to be up front and honest with us about when/if you can fill the order. If you can't, that's fine. I can look elsewhere for an order and I'll call you again since you were up front and honest with me." But because of how they have conducted themselves, there are tons of folks that are out there screaming, "Don't do business with them!" Now, whose fault is that?????

Look, I sell nucs every year and every year I have to say to people, "I'm sorry, I don't have anymore." This year, I actually called some folks back pretty early and told them that I would not be able to fill their order for nucs. Since they were the last orders, they were the first off the list and I refunded their deposits. I actually put them in touch with folks that I knew sold a good nuc. That's agriculture. I'm fully aware of it. Our business is affected by things we have no control over. 

I keep saying I'm done with this, but them I was called a fool...

Do I dare bring up your sexist comments? Now, that show's who the fool is...


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## mudlake

So everything is alright now that RA has done what he said he would do to start with. How many phone calls not answered. If they had answered 20% of the e-mail or phone calls, wouldn't that have been nice. How can a large beekeeper order a 1000 queens and have them show up a week late 2 weeks late, or not at all. The defenders on here are a joke, I hope you have as much luck with "RA" as I have. Take several days of from work send in your money and hear nothing. There is a sucker born every day and I was one. Tony


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## Lauri

I see the heated debate over Russell is still going on.

I recieved a variety of PM's on beesourse concerning my posts about Russell Apiaries. Yes, I posted a lot, mainly to respond to his defenders ridiculous claims and badgering the people who were out a lot of money. 

Some of the messages I received explained the fact this 'feud' was a long standing fight between beesource members and pointed out I was just the latest sucker to get drawn into it. Also about some of the posters extending circumstances for their late orders and to be fair, I thought it would be best if I apologized and asked if my posts would be removed. 

I am sorry I did that since that was taken out of context as "begging for forgiveness'. My apology was critisized And I was called a horrable women.etc etc.

BEGGING? Please. 

I have no patience for this crap and am really horrified at what I have read here on Beesource and Russells own web site.

And and update on the remainder of my order?..it was going to be sent that week in May. That was exactly a month ago. 

Once again I have to sadly report-Same poor/non existant service. No answers to calls or emails. And my emails were not to badger them about my queens.My emails were to offered to pay for shipping and to let them know I would accept a different variety of queens if the Cordovan Sunkists were not available...My email went off into the dark world of emptiness and oblivion never to be heard from again.

My original order was due in April and now July is around the corner. Hmmmm...I should have stated April 2012. Maybe they thought it was April 2013?

A little sarcastic? You bet. I've never seen such a Dog and Pony show as these forums have put on.

I am sure many defenders will be responding to this post. Go ahead and waste your time.

The fight here isn't even about Russell anymore. It's the dispute between the defenders and the customers. Russells strangly quiet lack of input makes it seem like they really don't even exist. And yes, I agree with another post- I have never had my credit card charged before the item is ready to ship. Especially not months in advance of delivery (Or lack of) A deposit would be understandable, but payment in full..then months of ....nothing? Seems a public forum is the only place folks have left to try to get some response for their money. Pay pal is past the dispute date and nothing else works. 

And one note: I ordered March 3, 2012. I have never changed my order or shipping date of April. My delivery month came and went and I only got some responce when I started voicing my concerns and a kind man from Beesource with inside connections helped me get some Virgins at the end of May -to at least help me get something going. Problem was they were not the variety I had ordered..and frankly after three days in the cage they already had quite a pile of eggs in the candy tube. Too old?? You tell me. Only a small few were accepted and after a month-they are still not producing any larva. They are beautiful queens and I am going to go out and squash them today.

Russell Apiaries has the best variety of genetics I've seen anywhere. If they could figure out their 'bugs' in the small consumer-customer service are they could do so well. I hope they do. Shame to not succeed with a good product. Many people have told me they will not read forum posts. Shame, they need someone to take all the unhappy customers reasons and figure out a way all (Customers and Russell) can be satisfied. But if no one is listening???

I was all set to place some nice sized orders this year and next..until I had samples of many of his varieties. I love genetics and sadly will not have the chance to play with his stock. It is a loss all around I'd say. 

I have 65 hives + 50 mating nucs+nucs I built and tend myself. I sold a few horses to pay for all this and had some nice plans for raising quality bees. It is a disapointment my dealings with Russell ended up like many others did. No real resolution and a lot of emotional forum posts.


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## giant pumpkin peep

i was not defending but giving my honest reveiw on the queens.


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## NW_Mark

Lauri said:


> I see the heated debate over Russell is still going on.


It’s funny how you were trying to sell Russell genetics on Craig’s list until I brought it to your attention and you pulled it down today.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/grd/3084328464.html

“As the summer progresses my grafted queens have really begun to achieve more success. I will have queen cells and mated queens for sale by the end of June.
I am grafting from my 2011 overwintered Glenn Apiaries Inseminated VSH Carniolan.)SHown in photo below-current pic) Read below about these genetics:

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/catalog.html

Capped Queen cells from this queen will be$15.00 each-a few will be available this Thursday.
Mated VSH queens will be $30.00


Queen cells are time sensitive and must be picked up on time! I will now be grafting every Thursday so capped cell pick up will be ready on Saturdays for more convienent pick up dates for folks.

My next grafts will be from My own best locally overwintered and great producing queen, Russell Apiaries Sunkist Northern Select and English Buckfast queens.
These were open mated. Capped queen cells will be $12.00 and mated queens $25.00

Info for genetics-Russell queens:
http://russellapiaries.webs.com/apps/webstore/products/category/466366
I only have a limited amount of mating nucs, so mated queens are limited and not available until later in the summer for fall requeening needs. Capped cells are more available. 

A few nucs headed by Standard Italians or Carniolans should be ready for sale by July 15th. Most are in five frame deeps. I also can make nucs with 6 1/4" frames.
Questions, please call 253-xxx-xxxx ask for Lauri

Sorry, no shipping this year. Raising queens takes scheduling and organization. I am still new and cannot guarantee queens to be ready on any given date. First come first serve this year folks.
I plan to have several more varieties available next year, but have to overwinter them first to be sure they are tough enough to withstand the the challenges of our Pacific Northwest climate.

Key words: bee, bees, honey, honeybees, honey bee, hive, apiary, bee keeping beekeeping ”


How hypocritical of you. When it’s to your advantage you will use their name as a selling tool but come on the forums and slam them. I understand that you have a problem with them… I think we all do by now. Do you think that airing your frustrations here will solve you dilemma?

I have no pony in this race and have no opinion on whether Russell queens are good or bad or anything about them. I have never done any transactions with them at all.

What I have a problem with is when people, in an open forum, complain about a company and then list for sale items that they are selling and using the company name to help out with their sales. I have now seen this twice with people using the Russell name. Both on BeeSource now. If the product is so bad then why would the person(you) want to be attached to it? You can’t complain in an open forum with out taking the chance that people will find fault, just as you have found fault with Russell. Your add reads as if the Russell Sunkist queens have been over wintered and are great producers. You also wrote in the past tense that they (the grafted ones for sale) are open mated. Is this not true? Is your add on Craig’s list then misleading?

I completely understand using the name of Russell in your add if that is what the mother queen stock is from. But is it not counter productive to then go on an open forum and complain about the productive of the queens you received? Or how the seller (Russell) has treated your order? An example that is way out there…. I have some mother queens from Joe Breeder. I am selling daughters. Go take a look at Joes site and check them out but please don’t read what I have said about his business and his queens over there. Because with what I said you might not buy from me then let alone from the breeder. 

You have cut your own wrist trying to solve a problem that should not be in an open forum. When you have a problem with Safeway (local grocery store) do you write to the editor of the Tacoma Turbine many times to air your complaints? Maybe its time to “Get Jesse” from channel 7. You stated you case many many days ago and still have to keep the horse going around the track. Deal with the supplier not with the rest of the world. Maybe snail mail might be a better choice. Crap if I was him I would completely forget your order for good. He now has nothing to loose. Sugar works a lot better then piss and vinegar.


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## theriverhawk

NW Mark...you have valid points. But what you don't understand is that you're coming in late having not been through the junk.

You're right, sugar works better than piss and vinegar. The sugar is so far in the past with some folks that it's crazy. We all tried that. Some on here have been dealing with this for over a year. We were "nice" and patient. But it just kept happening over and over. Eventually folks have just lost their patience and have posted here so that others won't have to experience what we have.

Yes, some vingar has been slung here. Go back and read. Most of the vinegar has come after someone has tried to put it back on us as if it was our fault this has happened. You will see me get defensive if you try to blame me for what I've experienced. 

Bottom line: We purchased/ordered a product. We were told what dates to ask for the order to be shipped. It didn't ship then. We emailed or called to ask about it.(I was VERY graceful. I sell nucs and I know how weather, etc affects this). Most of us got no responses to calls or emails. Some of us got responses and were told a new date. More often than not, that date came and went, too. Some of us that did receive the product(eventually) got a questionable product. DOA queens in the mail. I'm still waiting on replacement. Poor queens once they are placed in the hive. Over and over, we are experiencing this. 

If I sold you a product that turned out to not be anything close to what I promised and gave you the run around on follow up communications or exchange/replacement and you exhausted every means possible with me to settle up/get a refund, etc, you bet your bottom you'd tell everyone to not do business with me.


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## Lauri

Mark, Since you posted the same statements here as you did on Russells site I will also copy and paste my response.

Sorry you misread my ad. Heres what it states: 

My NEXT grafts will be from My own best locally overwintered and great producing queen, Russell Apiaries Sunkist Northern Select and English Buckfast queens.

I see where this runs together somewhat and could be taken as all three are overwintered. My ad has been changed to delete the Russell name and stock only because I don't have it to offer. 

These two Russell queens WERE open mated at my place..Remember they were virgins when I got them. 

Capped queen cells WILL be $12.00 and mated queens $25.00

Just stating the price for these NEXT grafts when they become available.

Not meant for advertising purposes, Russells name and information were listed only to those that care about the genetics of their bees. I also posted Russells web site so they can see what I am talking about. They could buy straight from him if they wanted to. 

I spent a few hundred dollars on my order, have waited for a few months past my delivery date for my mated queens and you feel I should not be uttering the Russell name to inform people of some of my genetics and try to make SOME of my money back? Have I not paid for that privilege? My public forum posts have been to complain, like many many others about there late orders and lack of customer service. Never disputed the quality of these genetics or Russells breeding program.

My craigs list ad was placed more than week ago. I was still hopeful Russells would come through for me (Remember they said the remainder of my order would be sent the last week in May. It is now the last week in June and I have had no contact from them.) I had hoped these new queens would live up to the hype. I am two months behind with my plans to work with Russells stock in my short season area. I am just doing the best I can with what I have to work with.

I sort of see your point, but hopefully you can also see mine. 

I had hoped to use Russells genetics to improve my stock, not use their name as a selling point. Most people that have come to me don't know or care to know about genetics. They just want a good queen. Most don't even usually know there is anything existing other than Italians. Unless they are interested I don't even try to tell them about the genetics. They trust me to sell them a good queen and that is what I plan to do.


Russell Apiaries has the best variety of genetics I've seen anywhere. If they could figure out their 'bugs' in the small consumer-customer service are they could do so well. I hope they do. Shame to not succeed with a good product. Many people have told me they will not read forum posts. Shame, they need someone to take all the unhappy customers reasons and figure out a way all (Customers and Russell) can be satisfied. But if no one is listening???

I was all set to place some nice sized orders this year and next..until I had samples of many of his varieties. I love genetics and sadly will not have the chance to play with his stock. It is a loss all around I'd say. 

I have 65 hives + 50 mating nucs+nucs I built and tend myself. I sold a few horses to pay for all this and had some nice plans for raising quality bees. It is a disapointment my dealings with Russell ended up like many others did. No real resolution and a lot of emotional forum posts.
Oh yes, I've been keeping bees a total of one year. I'm not a business or trying to ride on Russells name. I'm busy as heck trying to just get establiahed. I'd be foolish not to sell a few queens or nucs to offset the thousands of $$ I have spent doing all this.

One note I should clarify. I agreed to accept virgins from Russell and the fact they were not mated well was entirely on my end. My weather here was still rainy and cool unfortunately. The fact they two queens that survived are not laying after a month is not a reflection of Russells genetics or management. Why my bees were so aggressive towards the Sunkists and easily accepted the Buckfasts is not clear. If the queens had been the variety I ordered I would of course call my order filled. 

Mark, you have no idea of the situation or my intent. The fact you come on here out of the blue and have some authoritative opinion is sad.

Search Russells name here on Beesource and read ALL the posts before you state your opinions. You will see many of us who are accused of trashing Russells are really just responding to other members inflamitory posts who blame the problems on the customers.


----------



## jim lyon

That explains everything now dosent it? :scratch:


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## Lauri

All I can say is WOW


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## NW_Mark

Lauri said:


> One note I should clarify. I agreed to accept virgins from Russell and the fact they were not mated well was entirely on my end. My weather here was still rainy and cool unfortunately. The fact they two queens that survived are not laying after a month is not a reflection of Russells genetics or management. Why my bees were so aggressive towards the Sunkists and easily accepted the Buckfasts is not clear. If the queens had been the variety I ordered I would of course call my order filled.
> 
> Mark, you have no idea of the situation or my intent. The fact you come on here out of the blue and have some authoritative opinion is sad.


For Every Action, There Is An Equal And Opposite Criticism


----------



## NW_Mark

theriverhawk said:


> If I sold you a product that turned out to not be anything close to what I promised and gave you the run around on follow up communications or exchange/replacement and you exhausted every means possible with me to settle up/get a refund, etc, you bet your bottom you'd tell everyone to not do business with me.


I have been screwed many times in my life from different people. The one thing that I have learned is if I can’t shake the persons hand at the beginning or end of the transaction then I am taking a gamble with my money. That’s the chance we all take with making purchases over the internet. You made a choice and gambled with your money. Do you really think your problem will be solved in an open forum?

I have a queen ordered from a company that is VERY HIGHLEY praised on this site. It was ordered in January. To this day it has not been received and I figured it’s a lesson learned and I went into the transaction with the self understanding that I was throwing my money out the door at the time. Is it worth me posting my sad face here about it..NO…. Life goes on and learn to live with it.

Like I said before if I was him I would completely forget your order for good. He now has nothing to loose. What good would it do now to make you happy. You and others have already done your best to destroy him. And what have you gotten for that? Nada... Zip ... Zero


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## Lauri

BeeG

I am sorry you are so offended by me. It is not surprising, though. You and I are probably very different.

You have a poodle dog for your thumbnail photo, I have a dead Mule deer buck . I am not like most women, I hate the mall and enjoy woodworking, the shooting sports, hunting, fishing,etc. The closest I have ever come to getting a manicure is when my husband scraps off the paint from my hands or digs out a cedar sliver from underneath my fingernail. I don't relate to most women well so the fact you don't 'get' me is not surprising.

But I for the life of me don't understand how you could perceive my posts as vicious and embarrassing. You say as a 'fellow woman' you were embarrassed for me. I've gone back and read most of them. They are not sugar coated, I'll have to say that. Straight and to the point and perhaps that is what is coming off as harsh in your opinion.

As was said in one PM to me, those posts were correct at the time I posted them. Here's part of that message:


"Please tell me you're not feeling "run off" over statements made in that controversial thread? BeeSource is a valuable resource for exchanging information with other beeks, and useful to all. Fortunately or not, it's also a public forum, with thousands of people in it, who all have their own opinions; although the admins do a LOT to keep debates from turning into heated arguments & personal attacks, it is still a public forum, so some improprieties will always, unfortunately happen.
I don't personally see any need for you to have your posts deleted, in that thread or elsewhere; you made statements that you felt were appropriate at the time, and now have made other statements to clarify your new understanding. That's not offensive, that's a learning process, illustrated. IMHO, your comments, all of them, remaining in that thread now serves as a positive example for other customers who may be in a similar situation, and feeling as you previously did, I'd leave 'em myself "


I appreciated this message and think it is very well said.

As a new keeper, I couldn't have been successful to the level I am already without Beesourse. I read and learn from it every day and try to post helpful information for others, especially in the areas of hive design, genetics and experiments-especially regionally specific.

Let's stop all this fighting please. It is really getting us nowhere and having to respond to defend one's self is what keeps threads like this ongoing.


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## camero7

NW_Mark said:


> I have a queen ordered from a company that is VERY HIGHLEY praised on this site. It was ordered in January. To this day it has not been received and I figured it’s a lesson learned and I went into the transaction with the self understanding that I was throwing my money out the door at the time. Is it worth me posting my sad face here about it..NO…. Life goes on and learn to live with it.


You do everyone on this forum a disservice when you have that kind of information and do not share it. For those of us who order queens all summer, it is important to have that information. Don't be a hero


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## theriverhawk

BeeG: A second year beek chiming in as if they know what they're talking about? Look, I love to help newbees, but in this case, you are out of line. Rememer the old saying, "Walk a mile in a man shoes...." Well, you've walked about 30 yards compared to some folks who have walked many miles. When you've walked in our shoes as long as we have and have dealt with as many queen producers as we have, then your opinion will be valid regarding what we've experienced. You see, THIS IS WHAT WE EXPERIENCED. That, no one can take away from us. We know what we were told/not told, experienced, etc....Again, you cannot take this away from us. We know how we have been treated. 

I hope you are EXTREMELY success for many years as a beekeeper. The more of us the better. I, also, hope you never have to go through what some on here have. In reality, we are actually looking out for you, the newbee. I would encourage you to focus on learning from folks, listen more and imitate those that are successful at this passion we call beekeeping.


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## Brandy

Yep, I hate to admit I fell for the line last March 2011 and ordered Moonbeams. At the time I thought RA was a straight up outfit ready and willing to sell a product. Early this year I asked to add on some Sunkist if they could be combined w/ the previous order. Yep, no problem, will just credit when the order comes through. Yeah, right. Now, I did receive 3 Moonbeams and 3 Sunkist the end of May. So far so good, except that they weren't delivered on time, 1 DOA and all the rest with 4 dead attendents and the queens barely moving. So, I said I'd take virgins for replacements and shipping credit, but they shipped 1 queen, no credit or refund for the extra $19.50 they charged over the $28.50 shipping. 3 weeks later, 1 sunkist walking around on the frames, but no eggs, larva, and alllll the others long gone it looks like. So, was that a fun $251 experience??? Just glad it wasn't more, and feel like I've got that big "sucker" sticker on my forehead!! 

And yes, like the others mentioned here I did try to communicate once a week thinking that they were just busy and would get to me at some point. 4 weeks later, I give up and will write this off as a learning experience. There's toooo many other good queen rearers out there to mess with these folks that obviously are staying just ahead of the legalities of the law. Don't know what makes the difference in crooks in jail vs. those running around in their bee yards. Same thing in my experience. I guess it has more to do with the amounts over or under $$$$.


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## Specialkayme

I'm a little confused Brandy,



Brandy said:


> Now, I did receive 3 Moonbeams and 3 Sunkist the end of May.


Alright, still with you. You received your order . . . 



Brandy said:


> So far so good, except that they weren't delivered on time


Not fun, but it happens some time. Still received your order . . . 



Brandy said:


> 1 DOA


I really think this is a complaint against the USPS, and not so much Russell's, but alright, let's see where we go with this . . . 



Brandy said:


> and all the rest with 4 dead attendents


Really? We are complaining about dead attendants? Again, I think this is more of a complaint against USPS than Russell's, but even if it was Russell's fault, you didn't order attendants, you ordered queens. The state of the attendants has little bearing on your queen order.



Brandy said:


> and the queens barely moving.


Kinda a subjective complaint. "Barely moving." Are you saying they were damaged, diseased, or inferior? Or are you saying you expected them to be livlier? Or are you saying the shipping trip took a toll on the queens ( as evidenced by the dead attendants)?



Brandy said:


> So, I said I'd take virgins for replacements and shipping credit


And that right there is where you lost me. You received one DOA queen, and the rest were still alive, but you told them you wanted virgins as replacements? Most suppliers don't replace queens anymore. Russell often does if they arrive DOA (and sometimes under other circumstances). You wanted virgins to replace queens that were "barely moving" but did survive the trip? I think that is a little excessive. If you wanted replacements because the "barely moving" queens didn't make it, I can understand. 



Brandy said:


> 3 weeks later, 1 sunkist walking around on the frames, but no eggs, larva, and alllll the others long gone it looks like.


Are you referring to the virgins, or the "barely moving" queens? If you received virgins, you got replacements, so there isn't much to be upset about with the "barely moving" queens not performing. They were replaced with a product you requested. If you are referring to the virgins, it often takes more than 3 weeks to get a good laying pattern. And some may be gone. 20-40% loss of queens on mating flights isn't uncommon.


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## Keth Comollo

A few months ago I placed an order with Russell asking for a late June delivery. Found out recently that I would be traveling from July 1-8. I emailed Russell asking for a status update. They emailed me back saying they hoped to ship this week but if not they would hold my order till I returned. Got UPS notification that the order is on its way via Next Day Air and it is on the truck to be delivered this afternoon. 

I am sorry that some people are not happy but I personally am quite pleased with the service and communication I have received from Russell Apiaries.


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## MichaBees

Well, I am disappointed with RA to say the least . 
I have been waiting without lots of drama for my queens this year. After several emails requesting information, I finally decided to post my questions on their site and requested a refund. 
The respond I got is that my posts were deleted a few minutes ago.
What a disappointment! I believed RA was ethical, professional and honorable. I guess I will get my queens the moment I do not need them. 
If anyone from RA is reading this post; I just want my money back -no drama, no big deal, no more promises of great queens or this or that- just my money back now. 

Aurelio (leo) Paez
DBA Michas Honey House.


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## camero7

Sadly it seems they are taking down complaining posts on their forum. I've seen this happen a couple of times. And Robert doesn't seem to post on his own forum anymore.


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## MichaBees

So, taking down evidence on their short comings are the best they can do?
Sad...


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## Greg Lowe

I feel obliged to post my consumer experience in this thread. I ordered a couple of Sunkist queens based on the "hype" surrounding their buildup. While I was waiting for them I managed to snag a couple of Sunkist nucs from someone who refused to pick up their order from Russell (let me interject a big *THANK-YOU* to whoever it was that didn't want their nucs). A few weeks later, I have concluded that the "hype" about the Sunkists is well deserved. thumbsup:x2) They have done very, very well building up in a reduced nectar flow. Got them as a 5 frame nuc (bursting at the seams), moved them into 10 frame hives, added another deep to each, then another deep to each as they needed room. Having this experience, I ordered more queens (Buckfast and JN Russell's) to add diversity to my stock and to try some bees that I've been wanting to try. I can hardly wait until they get here, but until they do, I will keep focusing on my plan to increase my hives and become a better beekeeper, so that when they do come I will have plenty of places to put them.


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## kincade

The disparate experiences in this thread confuse me a bit as my experiences have been nothing but good.

I ordered a Carniolan queen this spring and it was shipped a week late (after 2 of their employees were killed in the accident). I was fine with the delay once I checked their webpage. 

Post office lost the package for a bit and the queen arrived late. I promptly installed her without inspecting her fully as I just wanted her to start laying. A week later I noticed that she had a damaged front leg and still had not started laying. When I notified Russell, Victoria offered to send me 2 more queens right away but I opted to wait another week to see if she'd start laying (as I didn't have another nuc or hive body to keep another queen and I'm not fond of trashing viable queens). Upon week 2 she hadn't laid yet and Russell shipped me a replacement. Took the 'damaged' queen out, put her in a nuc box I built, and installed the new one. 2 weeks later, BOTH queens are laying very nicely and I am moving my nuc to a 10 frame hive body to let the hive build up. 

I did offer to send money for the 'replacement' queen as both have turned out fine and both Robert and Victoria declined. I'd order from them again if it were an option. FWIW, I don't know anyone at Russell and this was my first order with them.


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## Barry

Any posts that make subjective comments on another member's experience, either good or bad, will be deleted. Tired of both sides trying to convince the other that they're wrong.


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## theriverhawk

Thanks Barry...that's been the dang problem all along. Folks post what they've unfortunately experienced and then they get attacked. Meanwhile, those that have had good experiences get a "glad that worked out for you...if you had experienced what we have, you wouldn't feel the same way."...and that comment gets additional condescention...again, thanks!


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## seal62

Greg ,,,glad that worked out for you . Really, i am . June27 ,,no contact ..no refund ...no bees . Could one of you guys that have a working phone # to this biz shoot me a pm ? At this point id be happy with a hot stick in the eye .


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## frazzledfozzle

Seal62 I commented on your video I'm concerned at the lack of honey or pollen in your hives looked to me like it was starving and if it was then I wouldn't expect your queen to be laying. 
Has your hive improved it's stores since that video was taken?


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## thomas

Ok maybe you all can help me who is Victoria and how can i get intouch with her about some business please pm me. 


Thomas Yancey


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## Riverratbees

Hey Barry u hit the nail on the head.


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## theriverhawk

Victoria is the person that answers the emails at RA. She answers via the same email address that's on their website.


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## Skinner Apiaries

Barry said:


> Any posts that make subjective comments on another member's experience, either good or bad, will be deleted. Tired of both sides trying to convince the other that they're wrong.


Im kinda tired of not having a signature, kinda subjective too.

Actually on subject now, I emailed them, they havent emailed me back. if I lost a couple hundred bucks so be it. Im not terribly worried about it. Ask yourselves, can you get on an airplane and find somebody? This isnt Nicaragua. if youre out a few grand go find him. If youre out 20 bucks, youre kinda whiney. Either way, their business is clearly defunct. But I hope they still deliver whats paid for.


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## Apple Farmer

I filled out the form on Russell's website yesterday asking about the status of my order that I placed last year.

I had an answer in my inbox this morning (sent by Victoria at 2:55AM). 

In it she says they are still running a bit behind but my order will be filled ASAP.

I'm looking forward to getting them. If they do as well as the queens I bought from Russell's last year I'll be a happy camper!

They are not the best at "on time delivery" but their Sunkist bees are something I've found to be unique to work with and unless they're working with an experianced mentor, I wouldn't recommend them for a new beek!


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## theriverhawk

Apple...just curious...why would you not recommend them for a new beek?(btw, I am not a new beek...including my time with my father as a kid, I have 40 years under me, 20 on my own) But I am curious as to why you would say that...thanks.


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## Specialkayme

Riverhawk - I've heard others make the same suggestion. Sunkists can be very heavy layers. As a result, they can require heavy splits to maintain their populations. Additionally, the heavy numbers can be daunting to some beginners, as reaching into a box that is literally overflowing with bees may not be the best environment for a beginner to learn on. Plus, along with those heavy populations come alot of hungry mouths. They can consume quite a bit of stores if you aren't careful.


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## Apple Farmer

Because I think that SK's can be overwhelming for a beginner. Most new beeks that I have mentored or talked with do not have enough equipment available to handle the SK's brood laying. If they have a mentor there is a posibility of borrowing equipment to handle the rapid build up if not their up a creek. SK's were developed for building strong hives to shake packages from (not honey production) and the new beeks I've talked to want to keep bees for the honey they can rob from them.

Look how many new beeks start with just one hive. A couple of deeps and two or three supers. I just talked to one that thought one deep and two medium eight frame were enough for a hive. No nucs, no extra boxes, no extra frames. 

I recommend to the people I've mentored to start with a mutts at least two hives and get some experiance, equipment, drawn comb and a hive through the winter. Then experiment and learn what works for them.

Hawk, for the record I'm not knocking Russell's at all. I have five more queens coming from them. If they perform like the queens from them last year, I'll have about thirty hives and ten nucs to go into winter with.


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## theriverhawk

Thanks Apple...a great reply. Would've loved to have worked through that problem!!!! I asked because I had a couple of queens released but then the hive killed them within 10-14 days of being released and before they layed. Jerry on the RA forum tried to say it was my fault because I didn't know how to work with RA queens. I'll refrain from going into how angry that foolish statement made me.
On a similar note, Shazam has posted there he believes there may be a pattern with bad queens during that earliest of June time. Seems non laying and hives killing the queens has happened often to others only with queens shipped then.


----------



## VolunteerK9

Apple Farmer said:


> I filled out the form on Russell's website yesterday asking about the status of my order that I placed last year.
> 
> I had an answer in my inbox this morning (sent by Victoria at 2:55AM).
> 
> In it she says they are still running a bit behind but my order will be filled ASAP.


Did your email look anything like this?

Hey John,
We are still a bit behind. I apologize for the delay. As soon as they're ready to ship you'll receive an email stating your shipping label has been printed, as well as a note from us to co tact your local post office and the ship date. The email will also contain your tracking number. Thank you for your patience and understanding. 

Victoria Ball
Russell Apiaries
www.russellapiaries.com

This is the email I got a month ago.


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## Apple Farmer

K9, Yep that's it. They just typed in a different name.

Good thing I wasn't holding my breath. I ordered from other suppliers and have the queens in their hives.


----------



## VolunteerK9

Apple Farmer said:


> K9, Yep that's it. They just typed in a different name.
> 
> Good thing I wasn't holding my breath. I ordered from other suppliers and have the queens in their hives.


I canceled my order through PayPal yesterday. I found it odd to read on here that some people ordered in the Spring, received their order and have already received replacements for the dead ones and Ive had mine on order since December 2011 and still havent received them. Im learning to rear my own so I wont have to deal with this again.


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## Shazam

theriverhawk said:


> On a similar note, Shazam has posted there he believes there may be a pattern with bad queens during that earliest of June time. Seems non laying and hives killing the queens has happened often to others only with queens shipped then.


Hawk,

That was pure supposition on my part, as there seemed to be a similar set of behaviors described and all seemed around that same time period including by me. If the bees were all sent out together, and sat in similar heat at the postal depot, might have caused it. Dunno of course. I know mine ended up sitting at the Jackson shipping facility for an extra unexplained day before being shipped out. It would be a shame if some of the 'bad press' RA got was due to such.

That said, I have queens now that have been released and are already laying, so cross fingers, and thanks to RA for replacing the queens.


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## Keth Comollo

The RA queens I received about a week ago were under a press in introduction cage for a few days and the hive loved em. When released they promptly set about laying frame after frame. No complaints here.


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## blainenay

TwinkieBee said:


> Mr. Nay cancelled his order on 6/5. The funds were reversed then....


July 3. Still no refund or "reversed" funds. Russell Apiaries has made no effort to respond to my attempts to communicate with them.


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## Vance G

I ordered last October and paid for a new wunderbee just being released. I requested early May delivery. At this point I would say I am never going to see those bees. I certainly would not advise anyone taking a chance and ordering from them. I certainly will avoid any purchase that is any way attached to the Russell name. If I got those queens tomorrow and they were the finest in the land, it is still too late in the year for me to utilize them in any productive capacity. If I got what I paid for tomorrow, they would just inconvienience me. I won't try to cancel. I am sure the weaselwords on his website about please allow time for delivery cover him well. Those kind of people usually cover themself well if not in glory. I am ashamed that I was taken in and was an advocate and defender of this Ponzi scheme. I apologize to anyone who listened to me. Vance E. Gilbraith


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## Lauri

I have not posted on these threads for quite some time. 

But I wanted to say, Thank you Vance for your statement. I think all of those who have had less than professional service or no service at all appreciate the honesty of those that have now changed their minds about this company. Sorry about your order. 

I guess folks believe what they believe until they see evidence that proves they were not totally correct. 

Robherc had put together a single email to Mr. Russell to try to get him to address a lot of the orders that were not delivered. He is not associated with Russells and is just trying to help out. He has not had any resolution though I believe. Even though I still have not received any contact from Russells about the remainder of my order, I am grateful to Rob for trying.

I am in agreement with you, if the queens showed up now it would just be an inconvienence. I would prefer Russells ship any queens they have to someone who can still use them or is in desperate need. 


As Rob said to me, "you made statements that you felt were appropriate at the time, and now have made other statements to clarify your new understanding."

Vance, we are just in the same boat.
Thanks again for your post. We understand. No worries.


----------



## Captainfester

no one lives near these people? stop by and say hi


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## Broke-T

I live near them and asked to stop in and visit. I was told I was not welcome.

Johnny


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## Greg Lowe

Broke-T, I'm just curious, but are you saying you were not welcome to visit or were not welcome to visit again?


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## Birdman

I have ten queens orderd for Russell, I have tried to find out when they would be shipped. Like the rest of you no luck. I email from another email address Need queens asap. Well got an email back [ Where are you located? That would help greatly in finding what we have for immediate shipping]. Don't under stand if you can ship 10 immediate Why don't they ship the one I have on order and paid for.


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## Vance G

Go to the Russell forum. I among others are stirring the pot and getting: We will fix it immediately reactions! i think they have some internal true believer trying to do a salvage job. I have trouble not buying back in as I am a world famous soft touch. I am out my money for 15 top dollar queens whether I don't get them,or get them in the fall in a drouth. It is sad as I am sure they didn't plan on ending up here. We are all weak vessels.


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## Birdman

I went a few round with he this morning. He said they were behind in emails. Four days with out an email when shipping was in the subject line, Six hours when you put need in the subject line. Well four day and counting,
The guy from russell fourm doesn,t have a clue. When you tell me you will have them on this date before I order, Then where my order not there behind.


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## theriverhawk

Wasting your time boys...especially on the RA forum. You'll be ripped about weather, nature, agriculture, you're an idiot for not understanding this, it's your fault the queens aren't there, it's your fault you haven't gotten a refund, it's your fault that all the queens they sent never started laying before the hive killed all of them, it's your fault that the queen showed up DOA in the mail and it's wrong of you to come on "our forum" and bring this stuff up and question anything so go back over to BeeSour and that jerk Barry, etc. BTW, they really do refer to Beesource as BeeSour on the RA forum.....I've got emails directly from them where they told me what day replacement queens would ship and they never showed up. We are among dozens of folks with the same story. They are probably good people but I'm telling you, you're wasting your time. I've stopped posting here, there, sending emails, etc because it was just consuming my time and I was gettting nowhere(just like everyone else)Just move on and chalk it up to "A good ol' fashion Life lesson"


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## Captainfester

For what it's worth file a claim with the attorney general in their state. This would be a massive federal fraud charge.


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## Barry

theriverhawk said:


> "and that jerk Barry"


"A sourpuss never afflixes my appetite" - AB


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## Birdman

On Russell, History they say they have sold bee's to the King of Jordan. Wonder how long it took him to get his bee's


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## theriverhawk

Barry...btw i was not referring to you, personally, as a jerk. it's the message "over there"


----------



## Barry

Yep, that's why I put quotes within the quote.:thumbsup:


----------



## Lburou

*Russell queens Arrived promtly...*



StevenG said:


> Greetings all!
> 
> Was wondering if anyone who has ordered queens from R. Russell has received them yet? If so, could you tell me a) when you ordered them? and b) when they arrived?
> Thanks,
> Steven


I ordered two queens (online) Monday evening July 9, 2012. Received confirmation e-mail in the morning Tuesday. Received shipping notification Tuesday afternoon. Post office called early Wednesday morning for pickup. I realize there are several legitimate agendas represented in this thread, but my expectations were exceeded.


----------



## Beezly

*Re: Russell queens Arrived promtly...*

Lee, what kind of queen was it?
thanks


----------



## Lburou

*Re: Russell queens Arrived promtly...*

They were Buckfast queens Beezly.


----------



## Beezly

*Re: Russell queens Arrived promtly...*

Thanks Lee!


----------



## buzzsaw

*Re: Russell queens Arrived promtly...*

I am beginning to think as captainfester - there are laws that protect the consumer when doing business over the Internet. I have tried to remain quiet (yes - I paid for product last summer that I have yet to receive) giving RA every benefit of the doubt - but the more I read their business actions are nothing short of fraud.


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## camero7

*Re: Russell queens Arrived promtly...*

Anyone who feels that they have been defrauded over the internet can file a report here:
http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx


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## Diogenes

*Re: Russell queens Arrived promtly...*

Russell Apiaries is rumored to be setting-up local shipping centers / breeding operations in most states. If true, that could reduce the shipping problems and certainly help the customer service.

The not answering of emails and phones just fans the flames of this little internet drama. I can picture a staff that is hunkered down and hiding from the flaming vitriol being hurled in their direction. Of course that "hunkering down" is just making things worse.

*Unfortunately, the common rule of customer service seems to apply in spades here. If you completely satisfy a customer, they may tell one or two other people about their wonderful experience. An unhappy customer is going to tell at least 7-20 people until they "get it out of their system".* 

In any case, the queens I got from another supplier were poorly mated (shotgun pattern after a month and still shotgun with brood in all stages as of last night, indicating those queens were mated with some closely related drones). That supplier (who I won't name or patronize again) said tough beans, they are alive and laying.

So I've taken the plunge and ordered queens from RA. Obviously, I've read about the nightmare experiences others have lived, and chosen to roll the dice.

Got confirmation email 6/26, so they accepted the order. Apparently, as they wind-down the retail sales, if you place an order that they cannot fill this season, they will not accept the order. So I'll report back about shipping or not within the month.


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## julysun

*Re: Russell queens Arrived promtly...*

Diogenes; Agree. Seems time for Beesource to contact Russell and clear up this if possible, at least to bring this thing to a head.


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## Diogenes

*Re: Russell queens Arrived promtly...*

july, 

In a perfect world that might happen. 

As things are, it is my personal opinion that you will never see Doc Russell on BeeSource again. At least not until the BeeSource.com site terms and conditions are changed back.


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## Birdman

*Re: Russell queens Arrived promtly...*

Got my refund


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## seal62

*Re: Russell queens Arrived promtly...*

Well i got a bike in this race.It never left the gate . For those that haven,t kept pace , 10 moonbeams payed for last june ,,no contact . When i see stuff posted,,i payed and got my bees 3 days later ,,,i really wanna drive down and settle my account . Birdman ,,,how ?


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## TIMER

Hey Mike, can I ride along? I'm sure they are very nice in person.
Maybe we could get the pick of the yard:thumbsup:
After all Robert said he would make it right, (a friggen year ago!!)


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## Diogenes

Yes indeed birdman,

If it won't violate Barry's dictate that you post only your own personal experiences, I am also very curious about how you managed a refund when others seem to have had such difficulties getting any answers.

How long ago did you place your order, and how long past the ship date was it when you cancelled it? Perhaps your example, knowledge, experiences and contacts will help some of the others who seem to have been cast adrift by Russell Apiaries.

If they can say that RA refunded birdman for his xxxx date order due to ship yyyy, then it could set a precedent to help others.


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## valleyman

I have recieved several Queens from Russells, Good luck to those of you that do get yours. mine weren't worth putting in my hives. He was great help last year in getting rid of my pure Russians, which I greatly appreciate. However the genetics that I replaced them with didn't last 1 year without failing. The queens that I ordered to replaced them with was a complete disaster. I won't have to worry about delivery anymore, because I will never order anything else from them. Kelleys is only 35 miles from me, and I can honestly say I have never gotten a bad queen from them. For the first time in 2+ years I'm enjoying beekeeping with my now 14 hives headed by Kelley Hygenic and Carniolans that Kelleys get from Shamrock. Nuff Said!!


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## Birdman

BBB and attorney gen.


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## Broke-T

I pass within a mile of Roberts house everytime I go to Jackson. When Twinkiebee was posting on here as Roberts mouth piece I asked if I could drop by and tour his operation. She said he said that he didn't want any troublemakers at his place.

Johnny


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## casinoken

And we all know how much of a troublemaker Jonny is........ LMAO


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## Birdman

I had four Emails about shipping no reply. I used a diffrent email address put need queens asap, didn't take long to get a reply. I think they flag all email once they recieve payment. I posted on russell fourm if I didn't have my queens or money I would be calling the BBB and atonery gen , Monday. Two hours later paypal email fund returned to card. I will still ride along if anyone's going that way.


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## Diogenes

Alrighty, the promised update to my Russell Apiaries order.

Previously I'd posted that I placed an order for some of the Russell queens I've been salivating over (no, not the ones with the little feather boas, the other ones) in spite of the multitude of posts in this forum moaning about Russell Apiaries' less-than-stellar customer service.

What I had neglected to mention was that my requested ship date was 9-Jul-2012. The day came, and nothing but silence from Russell Apiaries. After reading over the BeeSource threads, I was uneasy. My God, I thought, they're ignoring me!!! Maybe I should start sending them an email or PM every hour on the hour until I get an answer about when they'll ship or if they even accepted the order!! 

Fortunately, before I joined the mindless panicking herd, Rob Hughes posted on the Russell Apiaries forum that: "if the order was not canceled and refunded it was accepted". I did send him a PM thanking him for posting that information as it answered one of my questions (hope that will encourage more news).

So I took a deep breath, and shook the knot outta my panties and decided to wait some more. Another post on the Russell Apiaries forum explained that some of queens I wanted were in short supply due to a queen cell shipping incident. OK, I decided to give it at least another week before making any inquiries.

Then, Wednesday evening (18-Jul-2012), I got an email from Victoria asking if Russell Apiaries could make a substitution for the one variety of queen I had ordered. After a couple emails back and forth, (I wasn't sure about the initial substitution variety offer and she had some of my alternates available) the deal was struck, and shipment scheduled for Thursday via UPS overnight. It looks like Thursdays are "catch-up shipment" days. Sure enough, Thursday afternoon, I got an email shipment notification from UPS, shortly followed by another email from Victoria also confirming the shipment. I replied to Victoria with a thank-you and then it was down to the last bit of waiting. Plus, I'll order the "short-supply" queen variety from their New-York sub-producer next year. (I can drive there to pick 'em up.)

So, here it is, only 11 days past my requested ship date and I signed for my queens this morning. Part of this "success story" is due to *Russell Apiaries trying to get things under control and using more expensive Thursday shipments to get things back on track.* It also helped that this was a routine order, and was not interrupted by any disasters (natural or otherwise). Additionally, I think my being willing to make a substitution for one of the varieties greased the shipment skids, as apparently everything I ordered was in very short supply. Though if I was willing to wait a couple more weeks they would have filled the original order. (Bonus for me was being able to work in balmy 75 degree temps instead of the upper 90s last week)

Given that they ship 2700-4100 queens per week, if you assume an equal mix of small and large orders, then that equates to maybe 130-210 queen shipments per week. (very wild guess on my part) So naturally they are going to have a higher volume of complaints compared to many other producers. It's the numbers giving them more opportunity for the USPS and weather and other things to go wrong.

I suspect, though I cannot know, that the worst of this season's order tangles and problems at Russell Apiaries involve orders placed before or shortly after Mother Nature's office remodeling job. Also included in the worst of the mess would be anything due to ship in that time frame (yes, I'm speculating). 

Anyone in that situation who has not yet resolved it, should contact Robhughes (click "send a message") at the Russell Apiaries forums. He is the no-nonsense go-to-guy for unraveling order messes and it appears that he gets great results.

Your mileage may vary.


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## the doc

what sort of substitution did you do?


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## Beezly

I had the exact same experience as diogenes except my order was just under the 45 days stated on the website. I had put asap for a ship date when ordered and no exact date. Recieved a very similar email from victoria wednesday afternoon, I agreed to a substitution, (JN Russell), recieved confirmation Thursday that my original order had been shipped. They will be installed this afternoon. I for one am very happy with RA and will order again when i can. 
IMHO it seems that if you NEED a queen in a set time, right now with what they are dealing with, this is not the place to go. But they do put 45 day disclaimer on website. There are other places to get a queen "Today", but not the variety or genetics. 
I know this will be replied to with "but my order is 3,6, and 12 months late", I do believe they will make it right given time. 
good luck
mike


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## Brandy

Well, all I can say is "your lucky"!! I ended up with 1 out of 6 queens (that had been ordered and paid in May of 2011 for 2012) that made it a month later after install. And guess what, a drone layer. Mentioned that to RA with another reminder that I still had an extra shipping charge to be refunded, but guess what the reply was??? You guessed it!!** Can you say nada, zippo .....

I wouldn't buy a pencil from this outfit. Good luck if you do order, quality in addition to the customer service is nothing to write home about. Maybe if you buy a hundred or so, you may find something that lays something other than a drone. Good luck!


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## Specialkayme

You had a drone layer, notified RA, and they told you that you were out of luck? That has not been my experience with them. Could you copy and post the response? Just curious.


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## Brandy

Here's the response....... Nothing


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## Diogenes

Brandy said:


> Here's the response....... Nothing


 Well then, have you tried contacting Rob Hughes?

Link to his contact info at Russell Apiaries: http://russellapiaries.webs.com/apps/profile/97739020/ *< -- Click on "Send a Message" and see what he can do.*

Rob is the go-to-guy for fixing-up order issues. 

Worth a try unless you prefer to do nothing. Your choice either way.


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## flyingbrass

my experience has been horrible! I'll just leave it at that. Vote with your feet!!!


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## Brandy

"Worth a try unless you prefer to do nothing. Your choice either way."

Can't say doing nothing was an option since I tried repeatedly to contact them. Since I also run a business I understand all that's involved when you sign up to sell a product. Taking everyone's $$ a year in advance for a product and then not delivering either a response, refund, or the actual product is not acceptable. To say they weren't prepared for the retail small orders, duh, then give us the $$ back. We'll go somewhere else. But take the $$ then say you're not happy with allllll the emails, calls for the onesy's, twosey's, etc..... duh, it was good to start when they were on the receiving end. Sorry, I'm embarrased for them that with allll the supposedly good things they're trying to do for their community with whose $$??? Well, some of mine thank you very much. 

"Vote with your feet" ?? I would only guess that to mean run very fast somewhere else!!!! With VP queens, Honey Run, Zia, Glenns, Purvis, why would anyone waste their $$ on this bunch?? Sorry, just my .02 after my own experience.


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## Shazam

My recent experience mirrors that of some others. I'd ordered some queens from Russell last year, and then ordered moonbeams June 8, 2011. They were delivered June 1, 2012. In addition Robert had them pack in a couple sunkists as a bonus. The sad news is they bees were universally rejected except one that never got to laying. I had noticed the package sat in a postal depot for a full day in Mississippi before USPS sent it along. So despite it being a guaranteed delivery for May 31, it showed up a day late. A number of people reported similar issues with bees sent around this time (rejected queens), and I suspect it may have been a case of a # of bees sitting in too hot environment for too long and being damaged.

Russell sent another shipment of queens a week and a half later, this time by UPS 2nd day. Those queens arrived completely dead.

The only issue on Russell's part happened here. They closed the front office for a week as everyone was overworked dealin with all the crises, and didn't alert me, and all my hives were now queenless and running out of brood (as I'd culled the queens on remainder for the two bonus sunkist). So I was sending emails as I expected a Monday or Tuesday shipment according to an email I received and got no responses. I ended up PMing with Robert after not hearing anything from RA via email. Unfortunately one of my hives had gone laying worker and I was worried another was close, so I only had him send a sub portion of the queens, as no use for them on the LW hives.

He helped get things sorted and once people were back in, they sent the selected bees out UPS next day. I offered to help with shipping, he turned it down, despite RA now clearly losing money on me. I drove to meet the truck as they once gain were going to deliver in the PM rather than morning despite being next day. Installed the queens, and this time, no problems. I've shook one laying worker hive in and buttressed one of them, and will be stacking the other atop another laying worker hive for a few weeks so its brood pheremones can 'tame' the workers. After that we'll see what happens.

While the situation is unfortunate for me, really RA went above and beyond, reshipping queens, not once, but twice, eating the cost of both the queens and the shipping. The only hiccup was a one week unannounced gap for a sanity break.

Knowing how things are at RA, I was persistent but also polite in my communications, reaching out via both email and PM repeatedly, knowing they can be a bit overwhelmed. I've said before that I can absolutely understand customers for whom the lack of communication and reliability on ship dates makes it not worth it, but my experience is that RA backs their product when there are problems with it and that is more important to me. Obviously it would be best if there were both good communications, as well as their commitment to quality, but I'm happy for the latter. 

I am sad/bemused to hear of those who never had responses to large purchases that didn't show up. I also wish there was less antagonism between satisfied and unsatisfied customers. The tone of conversations has been unfortunate.

All I can say is continue to try and write, they do seem to be trying to get out from the backlogs as they also shift to the sub-producer model to avoid these problems next year.


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## seal62

In my quest for a refund ive been dished on like i was running for political office. I ve been to his site too many times , It seems to be down alot if your not ordering . I signed ..got in...looked around..guys with big orders ,,no queens .I saw the crud they dished on Lauri , what they did to everyone complaining that they took the money and no reply .I was kinda of schocked to see it wasnt scrubbed. 2 banners anti beesource ..and they used the same screen names as here . My payment was 13 months ago ,,,what dont you get ? Its like this ..Bob used bee source to promote his product ,, and the fans raved . The cool aid drinkers ,When Johnny Apple seed reads the rave reviews they buy them . But Bob doesnt ship, he put his head in the ground and makes his own site . How many years am i to wait cuze ive heard its worth the wait ,,? I'll gladly pay you for a hamburger tuseday for a queen in 2013? If ya take somebodies money ya better send them something . This biz is not trustworthy ...what can i say ? I called 4 queen breeders this season ,,broke, kelleys .fergusons, gia ...4 of the 4 i was on a waiting list . They didnt take money until they had bees to ship .Im still waiting on gia , but Melonie will shoot me a email when im up on the list . Try this ,,,ya want queens ,,pick a brand and add 5 $ ...i'll call breeders and have them shipped , order from dr bob and i can pocket the money..keep in mind shipping costs . Fergusons was 70 bucks , at that price i had to buy 2 more to dial down costs . Ive never posted on bobs site,,,i get a thank you for your intrest post when i try to sign in . I'll shut up when i have a cleared refund check .Might even have a pig picking with the money , ya all are invited . 4 words of adivce , dont waste your money.


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## Diogenes

Birdman said:


> I had four Emails about shipping no reply. I used a diffrent email address put need queens asap, didn't take long to get a reply. I think they flag all email once they recieve payment. I posted on russell fourm if I didn't have my queens or money I would be calling the BBB and atonery gen , Monday. Two hours later paypal email fund returned to card. I will still ride along if anyone's going that way.



I would have expected different email addresses to mess them up.

You must have been pretty aggravated to threaten to call both the BBB and the Mississippi Attorney General.

Did you place your order before the Storm wiped-out their office?

How many weeks late was your order at that time?



(content re-posted after thread split)


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## Vance G

I don't hate Russell or his Apiaries, I just wish I would have recieved the 15 queens I paid for. I vey much think the less of him because I ddn't and no I will not patrolnize him again. That would be insanity by definition. I used to defend him too


Keth Comollo said:


> Will these "I hate Russell Apiaries" threads ever die. If you don't like them don't order from them. Get a life already.


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## Riverratbees

Hey Barry does this thread ever end. RA customer SVC sucks what else can be said. People place a complaint with the BBB and put RA on the spot after enough complaints he will really have problems cause then the world sees he takes his customers for granted. Atleast start a new RA thread.


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## Specialkayme

Riverratbees said:


> Atleast start a new RA thread.


I believe Barry put a ban on new RA threads.


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## Barry

Not true.

Riverrat, I don't expect the complaints to end until consumers either get their bees or get their refund. The elephant in all this is the lack of refunds. This seems to be a recurring issue with some of the threads in this section. There are members who have paid for bees MANY months ago (up to 12 months) and still haven't received a refund. Yet other's come on here and tell how they placed an order a few weeks ago and promptly received their bees. Old business deals continue to be ignored while new ones get the attention.


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## Specialkayme

Barry said:


> Not true.


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?264310-Russell-Apiaries/page8 Post #159



Barry said:


> ***************** Notice ***************
> 
> To all posting on the subject of Russell, refrain from starting new threads. There are already plenty of threads going on this topic, we don't need anymore! Also, DO NOT cross-post the same message to all the different threads like I just did!!
> 
> ***************** End Notice ***************


Is that not what that says? A ban on new Russell Threads?

Looks like it to me.



Barry said:


> There are members who have paid for bees MANY months ago (up to 12 months) and still haven't received a refund. Yet other's come on here and tell how they placed an order a few weeks ago and promptly received their bees. Old business deals continue to be ignored while new ones get the attention.





Barry said:


> Any posts that make subjective comments on another member's experience, either good or bad, will be deleted.


Hmm. It would be nice if the moderator could follow his own directions.


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## Barry

What's subjective about what I said? I've talked with members who have shown me the data.

A ban? All depends on what the subject matter is whether it should stay in an existing thread or not.


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## swarm_trapper

thank you Barry this is what reviews are for. Once (if) my problem with them gets fixed i will let people know, but this i do know, i never had this poor of experience with a queen breeder. But it does sound like there is hope for me getting this resolved. Nick


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## blainenay

TwinkieBee said:


> Mr. Nay cancelled his order on 6/5. The funds were reversed then....


August 26. Still no refund.


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## Vance G

I am going to pull the last of my 2012 crop today and last summer as soon as they became available to purchase, I paid my $40 each for a piece of the dream! Well I am still waiting for my vaunted Russell Moonbeam queens. What possible good would they do me now if I got them? I see they are still selling queens for delivery and have been all summer. Why is that not a Ponsi scheme. I believe the man is a student of government!


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