# Hybrid KTBH/Warre/Lang Nuc



## Colleen O.

After having some experience with the KTBH, trying out a Lang Nuc, and reading some of Beekeeping for all by Abbe Warre I decided to build a new Nuc (and eventually hives) that combines the parts of each that I like. I didn't really care for the Lang but can see some advantages especially for Honey harvest so I sized the new nuc to take two Lang 5 frame supers (I've got mediums for it but it could have been any of the sizes). I really like the KTBH for the brood comb area, a viewing window, and having it up at a nice working height so I used that as the box. I like the idea of quilt boxes so I put a Warre style roof and quilt boxes on top. In order for the bees to have access to the supers I will have to make new top bars and route passages on the sides but for now I transferred one of my colonies into the box with their existing bars. When spring hits I'll start feeding in the new bars that will allow them to travel to the super when the time comes. If the bees don't like it I can skip the super idea and leave it like I have it right now (a KTBH with a Warre quilt box and roof).


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## Snookie

Groovy...

What's the wire/electrical for?


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## Colleen O.

Snookie said:


> Groovy...
> 
> What's the wire/electrical for?


I had another colony in this nuc that didn't have a big enough cluster but I wanted to keep the queen. It was divided into two and on the weak colony side I had a thermostat and a terrarium heater. I messed up when I added some bees from the good colony (didn't cage the queen) to keep the weak one going and they ended up balling and killing the queen. It is supposed to get cold again for a while so I just moved it to this colonies cluster and left it on to see what they do. Kinda interesting seeing how warm they keep the cluster. In general they keep it warm enough that the heater doesn't kick in. That electrical cord is also why the nuc is so close to the house. When it is going to warm up again (but before they are flying again) I'll take it out and move the nuc to where it usually sits.

On one or two of Michael Bush's posts he mentions warming his nucs with a very low set heater and that is where I got the idea.


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## Oldtimer

Interesting, I've never seen someone claim to combine the THREE designs!

Couple things from a management point of view, probably you already know this but just in case, when you put a super on top they will not move in if it is totally foundationless, you'll need 2 or 3 combs in it that reach all the way down to the bee cluster, to act as a ladder for the bees to move onto and up to the top of the next box.

The brood area seems small, the bees will be very keen to move into any boxes added long as they are set up right, but they will likely expand the brood nest into these boxes as well.


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## ruthiesbees

I did something similar as a test for this year. KTBH with super. I will contain an established colony so I don't expect to be getting into the brood box very often. Super is heavy enough without it being full of honey. I'm also going to try getting them to build comb in the glass jars.

The super is offset from the bottom box by 3/8" for the bees to use as an entrance on the right side. Once they get into the super, there are bars with holes in them to get down into the brood chamber. I don't know if I'll use both bars or just one bar, or cork a few holes. If the honey super is not in place, the bees will still use the top entrance and go between the roof and the brood box.


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## Colleen O.

Oldtimer said:


> Couple things from a management point of view, probably you already know this but just in case, when you put a super on top they will not move in if it is totally foundationless, you'll need 2 or 3 combs in it that reach all the way down to the bee cluster, to act as a ladder for the bees to move onto and up to the top of the next box.
> 
> The brood area seems small, the bees will be very keen to move into any boxes added long as they are set up right, but they will likely expand the brood nest into these boxes as well.


Thank you for the insight! (By the way, thank you for the queen rearing method you posted. Very informative and helpful!)

I did think I might have to put at least one comb up there but it is good to know I may need to put more. The overwintering nuc this replaced had 10 bars at 1 3/8" (average) wide but this nuc version has room for 14 bars at 1 1/4" wide plus two 1/8" spacers. It has 12 in it right now with a lot more spacers (I gave them some more honey because they were low plus I have a follower in there). For the hive version I plan to have it take three 8 frame mediums side by side.

I wondered if they would fill the supers with brood instead of honey too but since this is a nuc it doesn't concern me too much. If it helps them overwinter so much the better!


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## Colleen O.

Ruthiesbees, That looks really nice! Please post back and let me know how it is going. I planned my supers as two five frame mediums to reduce weight, I'm sure the full size one will be heavy. How many bars does your box fit?

Oldtimer gave me something to consider as to them moving up. I can either band in combs from the nuc or feed in Lang bars for them to start drawing. I was thinking to band in combs because I want to change out combs to the new bars when they start building up anyway. Do you think yours will build in the super because they have to travel through it anyway or were you planning on doing something to entice them up?


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## Oldtimer

Please keep the thread updated in due course be interesting to see how it goes.


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## ruthiesbees

This hive is shorter than their hive now, so that will be one reason for them to move up. The other reason is that I have moved their entrance to the top (middle). I think MB had a recent post about that. Third reason is that I will move some of their honey stores to the second level. They shouldn't need a "ladder" as they are entering at that level.

One kink in my plan is that the hive destined for this box in a month, (my only hive), has decided to make queen cells. (see my other post from today). Someone said the one queen cell looked like it had been empty for about a week, so I may have 2 queens in my current colony. If they decide to swarm, I hope they pick one of the 3 empty hives that are in my yard. 

I would not try to populate this hybrid hive with my new package that is due in Mid-April as I have read that it is a 2yr old hive that is still in "build" mode that will make the most honey.

I would like to hear how things go with the terrarium heater on the weak colony. I had thought about doing that this past winter when I thought my girls were a bit weak. Apparently, they have made it thru just fine if they are building comb and queen cells.

I do wish I had made the super smaller. Had tried to get Beeline Apiaries to do something custom for me, but to no avail. So I talked my engineer father into building something. He wasn't really interested in "bee space", etc. His eyes kinda glazed over after I gave him the basic dimensions. He did build all 3 pieces to this hive, though and I think it turned out very well. Glad to see someone else trying the supers on a top bar hive!


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## Colleen O.

ruthiesbees said:


> One kink in my plan is that the hive destined for this box in a month, (my only hive), has decided to make queen cells. (see my other post from today). Someone said the one queen cell looked like it had been empty for about a week, so I may have 2 queens in my current colony. If they decide to swarm, I hope they pick one of the 3 empty hives that are in my yard.
> 
> I would like to hear how things go with the terrarium heater on the weak colony. I had thought about doing that this past winter when I thought my girls were a bit weak. Apparently, they have made it thru just fine if they are building comb and queen cells.


The colony that I rigged up that heater for killed their queen (due to my error). The colony it is on now is actually my best. I'm a bit concerned that leaving it on may do more harm than good. The lowest I can set the heater for is 68°F, so when I peeked in a bit ago they were only loosely clustered and pretty active on the combs for a 37°F day. I could disconnect the heater and leave the thermostat on to check their temperature. They do have patches of brood going, and this does let them move to honey. Just not sure. Michael Bush mentioned he had his at 70°F at first but now if he uses one he I think he said he puts it at 45°F. That temperature sounds more optimal but is beyond my thermostat settings.

I did see your post. The cell looked hatched to me but I figured I would let someone more experienced comment. I wondered if you had any drones around for her to get mated. I could see the egg in the cup too. Insurance? How is the population in that hive?

I planned to let the colony currently in this nuc build up and then transfer them to a new hive. I don't currently have that hive built yet though so I need to get to work! I got nervous and ordered an "insurance package" to make sure I would have bees. I think I will install them at a friends place because I won't need them here. I'm not sure if I should install them in the old nuc this colony came out of (on drawn comb) and then into my old hive or if I should try out a Warre. I won't be able to keep that close an eye on them so it seems like a better style for that.


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## Colleen O.

ruthiesbees said:


> Glad to see someone else trying the supers on a top bar hive!


Praxis (a poster on here from Australia?) did this last season because he ran out of room. I think he made up the super versus using ones from a Lang. I checked in with him to see how it went. He indicated it went well at first but then he got busy and didn't check it enough and they swarmed or something. Sounded like the concept was working well. My main changes are Lang size to be more compatible and adding the Warre quilt and roof.


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## WBVC

If one builds a long lang and plans to super it and during winter use a quilt box would not be appropriate to simply build a box the equivalent length of 20 lang frames with 2 supers on top (you will "waste" the width of 2 frames for box walls..or you could build the bottom brood box 2 frames wider. Put on double inner covers and a single cover. You put a hinged sbb with tray below.

I would be aiming for minimal lifting, adequate brood space and good honey production.
I guess in short looking to keep brood in the bottom with lighter honey supers above.

Would/could that work?


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## Colleen O.

WVBC, I think a few people have designed their Long Langs just that way. Some even have split covers and super a portion at a time. I think if you don't start with a nuc it takes a season to fill the regular box and then the next season you would work in the supers. If you started with a nuc you might be able to fill the supers.


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## shannonswyatt

Dang Colleen and Ruthie! You truly outdo yourselves on finishes. Both those hives look awesome! My neighbor probably wishes you lived next him instead of me!


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## Colleen O.

*Re: hive temp readings*

Ruthiesbees, I have been monitoring the Hybrid nuc with the thermostat on it. I have left the terrarium heater unplugged most of the time out of fear that with a healthy colony it might do more harm than good (that they would go through stores faster). I plugged it in twice for overnight when it was going to be in the teens. I think the thermostat probe is just above the cluster in the V made by the intersection of the bars. I'm going to carefully take it out in a few days when it is due to warm up into the 40s but before it hits flying weather. I want to move the nuc back to it's permanent location so they can orient there.

So far I have noticed (without turning the heater on) they are keeping that spot in the nuc 10 to 25°F warmer than it is outside. Today they must have moved up or tightened their cluster due to the cold because while it was 15°F outside the reading on the thermostat was 68.3°F. From this I really feel other than satisfying my curiosity they don't need any help from the heater.

The major thing I have noticed is what an impact peeking in the observation window has on them. I have done that twice and both times the temperature spiked up 20°F almost immediately. That has to come at a cost this time of year. I could see that they went from quiet to agitated movement when I looked in. The old nuc these bees were in didn't have a window so they may react more because they aren't used to it.


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## Colleen O.

shannonswyatt said:


> Dang Colleen and Ruthie! You truly outdo yourselves on finishes. Both those hives look awesome! My neighbor probably wishes you lived next him instead of me!


Thanks Shannonswyatt! That color was the best I could do with some mis-tint paint combined with some outdoor paint I had. The roof I did with the shellacked cedar tongue n groove boards because I thought it would look nice and be lighter because it is thin. We'll see how it holds up. I did make sure to put the groove on the down angle and glued them together using Tightbond III. I wanted to paint some sunflowers on it but don't have time and wanted to get them installed during the warmup.

I like the color Ruthie used a lot, very calming.


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## Colleen O.

Since I last posted on this I tried marking the queen and she was balled and eventually killed. I ended up with a few queen cells so I put the solid follower in and divided the nuc into two. Despite taking an extra queen cell out and making a nuc with it and two of the bars the original colony side was pretty crowded.

Today I put the medium supers on to give the one colony more space. I took the combs out of the slightly weaker side, screwed a 3/8" thick bar onto the two thicker honey comb bars and put one in each medium super. I then shook the bees off another comb, cut it off the old bar and tied it to a new length routed side bar. The new length is the same as a frame. I put that bar in the super in the weaker side. I then shook the bees off the other two brood combed (one at a time), cut them off the old bars and tied them onto the new bars. I was careful to leave the one with the queen until last and was much more gentle shaking the bees off. By doing this I was able to put all new bars in this side of the nuc. It holds 6 of the 1 1/4" wide bars. On the other side I had put two of the new style bars in when I made the split so it just got shims to close the gap and the super with the one empty honey comb. I looked down in it right after I put the comb in and saw the bees immediately spread up the comb. Yay! Seems to work.

When I looked through the crowded side I didn't see the new queen but did see a single beautiful queen cell. It looked recently capped and I can't figure out how it got there because of the timing of when the old queen was killed. All the worker brood has hatched and the last of the drone brood is hatching right now. The new queen is likely out mating today because this is the first warm day since she was old enough. There are no eggs or open brood in the hive. Who knows, but I left it alone. I can see it through the viewing window so will be able to monitor it.









You can see a few of the new bars in the middle of the super next to the old bar and the frames.


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## Oldtimer

Nice work Colleen.

About the new queen cell, there are really only 2 options how it got there. First, is that it is a genuine queen cell recently hatched, and the lid flipped down into the closed position and the bees re-sealed it so it looks like a capped queen cell, this does happen sometimes. If this is the case you will likely have a virgin in the hive and eventually a laying queen. The other option is the bees made it from a random unfertilised egg laid by a worker, this is also something bees do occasionally. If this happened it will not result in a queen.

It's most likely the first option so you could just wait it out, but if you want to be totally safe you could give the weaker hive a comb with eggs from the other hive.


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## Colleen O.

Actually I saw the queen in the weaker side, the cell is in the stronger side.

I checked my notes for the dates. They balled the old queen on April 11th. On the 26th I went in and removed a hatching queen cell and saw a newly hatched virgin queen in there at that time and made sure she stayed in the nuc. The queen cell I saw today looked newly capped and there were no other eggs or larvae in the hive. The only brood other than the queen cell is the last of the drones hatching out (saw some emerging). I figure the earliest that queen could have hatched was the 24th. The cell was definitely newly capped, not papery yet. I wondered what about Theotolky (sp)? I thought they were prepping to swarm when I took their extra hatching queen out. They had most of the comb backfilled when I looked today so despite taking that split they still look like they want to swarm. Could their desire to swarm have given them the impetus to lay that golden egg or is it more likely to be a drone larvae in that beautiful cell? I guess time will tell. I can see the cell through the viewing window so if they tear it down or it doesn't hatch within 8 days I will more or less know.

I guess one other option is that the newly hatched queen had her mating flight really soon after she hatched. The weather was nice for about two or three days after the 24th but then it was rainy and then colder (50 to 60°F) until being nice again today. How long after hatch to harden off prior to flying out to mate?


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## Metropropolis

That is a beautiful piece of workmanship. Conceptually, it sounds very similar to the "Calgary Top Bar Hive": Top Bars for Brood, Frames for honey, and Quilts on top.

See: http://members.shaw.ca/metropropolis/The Calgary Top Bar Hive.pdf


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## shannonswyatt

Why not just put a quilt on a lang and not attach the bottoms on the frames in the bottom box.Then you would have top bars for brood, frames for honey and a quilt on top. If you used short side bars you could put a window in to watch it as well.


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## Colleen O.

shannonswyatt said:


> Why not just put a quilt on a lang and not attach the bottoms on the frames in the bottom box.Then you would have top bars for brood, frames for honey and a quilt on top. If you used short side bars you could put a window in to watch it as well.


There are all kinds of possibilities but I like the KTBH. The one time I tried a Langstroth nuc I didn't like it very well but I could see the advantages it has for honey production. I cut down that deep nuc to medium size and used it here. The excess from the cut became the quilt boxes. If it doesn't work out I can just take the mediums off and I am back to the KTBH that I favor.

Another advantage in this configuration is if I get to a point when I want to sell some bees I could sell either as KTBH or Langstroth medium.


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## shannonswyatt

To each his or her own I guess. To me the advantage of a TBH is the simplicity. Nothing magical about the bars themselves, just run foundation less if you don't like foundation.

I've considered running a long hive with Jumbo frames in a setup that could potentially allow supering, but I'm not sure if I want to make my own frames that badly. My back and general all around laziness won't let me lift to supers either.


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## Colleen O.

shannonswyatt said:


> To each his or her own I guess. To me the advantage of a TBH is the simplicity. Nothing magical about the bars themselves, just run foundation less if you don't like foundation.
> 
> I've considered running a long hive with Jumbo frames in a setup that could potentially allow supering, but I'm not sure if I want to make my own frames that badly. My back and general all around laziness won't let me lift to supers either.


Versus my regular KTBHs, the most added complexity is the Warre style roof, but I have peaked roofs on my KTBHs so it doesn't add much more. As to the bars, I already have the wedge type these are just two inches longer to match Lang frames in length and the only extra step is routing the sides. I was hoping that being 5 frame mediums the supers wouldn't be too heavy to lift.

Now if my KTBHs were made simple like Michael Bush's design then making one like this would be a lot of extra work.


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## Colleen O.

Metropropolis said:


> That is a beautiful piece of workmanship. Conceptually, it sounds very similar to the "Calgary Top Bar Hive": Top Bars for Brood, Frames for honey, and Quilts on top.
> 
> See: http://members.shaw.ca/metropropolis/The Calgary Top Bar Hive.pdf


Wow Metropropolis that is a really nice presentation and our designs are eerily similar.

My first two bars I made the openings like yours using just the table saw. Those two have 1/4" cutouts and are in place on one side of the nuc. Before I completed the rest I dug out the router attachment stuff for the extra plate on my table saw and routed the rest (much quicker!). The ones that are routed have just over 1/8" cutout per bar making the gap when two are side by side just over 1/4".

My angles and sizes are the same or similar. For the nuc I used 2" thick lumber but I don't know if I will for a full size hive. (I do plan to make it full size.) I do have a viewing window (boutique LOL!) and the nice thing about the thicker wood is that it lets me put 1" foam insulation between the glass and the cover. I've noticed the bees avoid the window during winter so I started insulating them.

I don't have screened bottoms (in my experience they allowed SHB in) and am suprised you have them in Alberta. Is it for Varroa monitoring? I started doing detergent washes spring/fall to check that. I am hoping the quilts help with ventilation in the summer. The screen bottom did help with that but the pest entry didn't make it worth it to me.

You have some nice extras that I didn't do like a landing board and entry feeder. My entrances are on the sides by the ends. When I had one on the end the bees just thinned that comb out and didn't seem to use it. I have jar feeders for the TBH and two medium frame feeders for the Langstroths but am intrigued by the one in Warre's book. I might try making one of those in the future. I also have a pollen trap I would like to adapt to fit.

For my full size hive I was thinking about putting in a permanent partition so that it would be a hive sized to fit two 8 frame mediums on one end, one 8 frame nuc on the other. Part of the reason for this is I am allowed 5 hives on my lot but it would reduce the appearance of how many I have to my neighbors. A permanent partition would reduce the versatility though. What do you think?

How long have you run this type of hive? Do you find it gets better honey yield compared to a standard KTBH? Does the quilt help with wintering?

Again, very nice presentation and very generous of you to make it readily available to all.


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## shannonswyatt

Metropolis has a great presentation, but the difference between the R value of 1 inch lumber and 2 inch lumber, while twice as high is still pathetic. Lightweight insulated panels attached to the exterior would have a significantly higher insulation effect without being super heavy.

I think the most important thing from an insulation standpoint is to block the wind. The bees don't heat the box, they heat the cluster. Given a decent wind break they seem to do OK. I'm basing this more on what I've read from other folks that keep hives in northern climates with nothing more than roofer's felt around the boxes (solar gain on warm days and a wind break).


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## Colleen O.

Shannonswyatt, I've thought about that, how puny the "R" value is for wood. The main reason I don't think I want to make a hive out of the 2" thick lumber is how heavy this little nuc is. I have considered using plywood and making SIP panels up using it and XPS but it just seems like a lot of work and I don't know if they sell marine or exterior grade plywood in 1/4" thick.


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## shannonswyatt

I don't think insulating the sides is necessary, but if you were I would just use polystyrene panels. The R value is tons higher than wood. You could probably duct tape it to the sides of a hive to hold it in place for the cold months. I think putting a sheet on top of the bars would be a better thing to do to hold the heat in to the hive though. I know lots of people put a piece inside of there outer covers on langs now a days.


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## Colleen O.

Colleen O. said:


> I checked my notes for the dates. They balled the old queen on April 11th. On the 26th I went in and removed a hatching queen cell and saw a newly hatched virgin queen in there at that time and made sure she stayed in the nuc. The queen cell I saw today looked newly capped and there were no other eggs or larvae in the hive. The only brood other than the queen cell is the last of the drones hatching out (saw some emerging). I figure the earliest that queen could have hatched was the 24th. The cell was definitely newly capped, not papery yet. I wondered what about Theotolky (sp)? ... I can see the cell through the viewing window so if they tear it down or it doesn't hatch within 8 days I will more or less know.


I found out how to spell it. Thelytoky. Very rare but evidently is possible.

The cell is still there and capped. Will report back if they tear it down or a new queen emerges.


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## Metropropolis

Colleen O. said:


> My angles and sizes are the same or similar. For the nuc I used 2" thick lumber but I don't know if I will for a full size hive. (I do plan to make it full size.) I do have a viewing window (boutique LOL!) and the nice thing about the thicker wood is that it lets me put 1" foam insulation between the glass and the cover. I've noticed the bees avoid the window during winter so I started insulating them.


I only used insulation for part of the winter, and ultimately found it unnecessary. Bees surived 30 days of -30C (-20F) without a problem. I just partitioned off the north end, which created a buffer cavity against the wind. Quilts mitigated heat loss out the top. Colony survived. The real purpose of the 1 1/2" wood is structural strenth, more than insulation.



Colleen O. said:


> I don't have screened bottoms (in my experience they allowed SHB in) and am suprised you have them in Alberta. Is it for Varroa monitoring?


Ostensibly. It's considered a standard feature around here. In practice I use it more to look up through for observation purposes.





Colleen O. said:


> For my full size hive I was thinking about putting in a permanent partition so that it would be a hive sized to fit two 8 frame mediums on one end, one 8 frame nuc on the other. Part of the reason for this is I am allowed 5 hives on my lot but it would reduce the appearance of how many I have to my neighbors. A permanent partition would reduce the versatility though. What do you think?


Sounds like some pretty small hives to keep colonies in. I don't know your local conditions, but around here bees would be swarming out of such shoeboxes every 5 minutes come July.

Not sure what your intent is of keeping so many small colonies.




Colleen O. said:


> How long have you run this type of hive? Do you find it gets better honey yield compared to a standard KTBH? Does the quilt help with wintering?


1 year. I don't know what a standard KTBH is... but my understanding is that the KTBH genre is generally understood to fall short in terms of honey production, which is why they are not kept for that purpose in North America. I harvested about 20 lbs of cut comb, and about 50 lbs from extracted frames. The quilts work as advertised: They keep moisture off in winter.




Colleen O. said:


> Again, very nice presentation and very generous of you to make it readily available to all.


My pleasure, Colleen.


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## Metropropolis

shannonswyatt said:


> Why not just put a quilt on a lang and not attach the bottoms on the frames in the bottom box.Then you would have top bars for brood, frames for honey and a quilt on top. If you used short side bars you could put a window in to watch it as well.


Because then it would be a Lang, used by evil industrial bee exploiters, and lack the cachet of owning a top bar.

In my neck of the woods, the sole reasons folks use a TBH are for non-beekeeping reasons: Either misinformed eco-idealism, or horticultural fashion.


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## Michael Bush

> but my understanding is that the KTBH genre is generally understood to fall short in terms of honey production, which is why they are not kept for that purpose.

They are kept for that purpose (honey production) all over Africa.


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## Metropropolis

Michael Bush said:


> > but my understanding is that the KTBH genre is generally understood to fall short in terms of honey production, which is why they are not kept for that purpose.
> 
> They are kept for that purpose (honey production) all over Africa.


The context of the claim should have been self evident, Michael. Such pedantry is unbecoming of you.

Post corrected nonetheless.


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## Michael Bush

>The context of the claim should have been self evident, Michael. Such pedantry is unbecoming of you.

It was not my intention to be pedantic. Perhaps in your location people who have top bar hives do not intend to get any significant amount of honey. Ok, does this fit better: they are kept all over New York and Florida and other places by Sam Comfort and all over the US by others for honey production... is that a better context? My point is they are used for honey production all over the world. Do I think Langstroths are more practical in an outyard in the US? Sure. I have zero top bar hives in outyards. But I have some in my yard and they produce honey. The wonderful thing about a top bar hive is you can build one for nothing from scrap wood without a lot of woodworking skills AND you can produce honey. The down side is not a lack of production but a higher frequency of manipulation needed to get that production which is not practical if it's a long drive. Which is why I don't have any in my outyards. What I am disagreeing with is the implication that TBH are not intended to produce honey. It is their design criteria to produce honey. It's what they were invented for.


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## Metropropolis

Michael Bush said:


> >
> It was not my intention to be pedantic. Perhaps in your location people who have top bar hives do not intend to get any significant amount of honey. Ok, does this fit better: they are kept all over New York and Florida and other places by Sam Comfort and all over the US by others for honey production... is that a better context?


I agree context is the key..... and in a North American environment where better alternatives exist, it would be odd to choose a KTBH for the sake of honey production. Sam Comfort has stated that he makes most of his income selling colonies and KTBH Woodenware. Any money he makes from honey would be incidental.



Michael Bush said:


> >
> My point is they are used for honey production all over the world. Do I think Langstroths are more practical in an outyard in the US? Sure. I have zero top bar hives in outyards. But I have some in my yard and they produce honey. The wonderful thing about a top bar hive is you can build one for nothing from scrap wood without a lot of woodworking skills AND you can produce honey.


You're totally correct. That being said, most KTBH's these I've seen, and read about on these forums appear to be beautiful examples of workmanship, not make-do from scrap. Les Crowder is the only notable exception I can think about. Based on the pics I've seen, he does do justice to the idea of building what he can from whatever he can get his hands on. I'm sure there are other examples, but in North America, they are the exceptions, not the rule.




Michael Bush said:


> >
> The down side is not a lack of production but a higher frequency of manipulation needed to get that production which is not practical if it's a long drive. Which is why I don't have any in my outyards. What I am disagreeing with is the implication that TBH are not intended to produce honey. It is their design criteria to produce honey. It's what they were invented for.


It strikes me that you're taking an odd position. We both know the many reasons that KTBH's are inferior in terms of honey production, compared to other designs. I hope I am not presuming too much. While they do produce honey, I think your words could be misread as an endorsement that they do it well. 

It is quite clear to me that Maurice Smith's CIDA team developed these for their accessibility to poor Africans who weren't able to afford better. 

I guess they do produce honey, but in the same way my kids produce art


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## shannonswyatt

I could be wrong, but it seems most commercial guys make more money selling bees or pollination services than selling honey, not just folks like Sam Comfort. I'm sure there are folks that only raise bees to make honey, but I think those would be the exceptions. 

The advantage of a lang is that it allows easy vertical expansion or contraction, a TBH offers horizontal expansion or contraction, but only to the limits of the original hive design. That and the lack of frames make extraction impractical at best.


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## Michael Bush

>I think your words could be misread as an endorsement that they do it well. 

Top bar hives (and any horizontal hives) make honey very well if you have the time to micromanage them. And they do it without you lifting heavy boxes. If you have the time to micromanage and don't have the strength to lift boxes, a horizontal hive is probably your best option and it will make just as much honey as a well managed Langstroth if the TBH is managed well. The management is different for two reasons: the limited space and the horizontal orientation.

They are not very practical for a commercial operation in an outyard, in my experience, but if you had good enough forage and not to long of a drive, you could manage them in outyards. Les Crowder has been doing it for decades...


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## Colleen O.

Colleen O. said:


> I checked my notes for the dates. They balled the old queen on April 11th. On the 26th I went in and removed a hatching queen cell and saw a newly hatched virgin queen in there at that time and made sure she stayed in the nuc. The queen cell I saw today looked newly capped and there were no other eggs or larvae in the hive. The only brood other than the queen cell is the last of the drones hatching out (saw some emerging). I figure the earliest that queen could have hatched was the 24th. The cell was definitely newly capped, not papery yet. I wondered what about Thelytoky? I thought they were prepping to swarm when I took their extra hatching queen out. They had most of the comb backfilled when I looked today so despite taking that split they still look like they want to swarm. Could their desire to swarm have given them the impetus to lay that golden egg or is it more likely to be a drone larvae in that beautiful cell? I guess time will tell. I can see the cell through the viewing window so if they tear it down or it doesn't hatch within 8 days I will more or less know.
> 
> I guess one other option is that the newly hatched queen had her mating flight really soon after she hatched. The weather was nice for about two or three days after the 24th but then it was rainy and then colder (50 to 60°F) until being nice again today. How long after hatch to harden off prior to flying out to mate?


I inspected Friday and saw the capped queen cell in there but the bees definitely had that distinctive queenless roar. There were a couple drone cells, maybe 5, but no signs of laying workers. There isn't really any room for them to lay. They have filled every available cell with nectar including the ones they are drawing. I didn't spend much time in there, just looked around for a queen or signs of one and examined the queen cell to see if it looked recapped. From the looks and sounds the hive is queenless and the cell looked good.

Today I checked it a few times through the viewing window. This morning it looked normal, this afternoon the tip was so covered with bees I could barely see it. Suspecting from the timing it might be hatching I just went out and checked with a flashlight and it was uncapped. I couldn't see a lid but could see the hole in the bottom because a bee was in there, working on tearing it down I guess. The cell looked newly capped 7 days ago when I first saw it so hatching today puts it right on target if the egg was laid on the 24th. On the 26th I saw what I took for a newly hatched virgin queen when I removed the other hatching queen cell. I might have the bee math wrong but it sure seems like Thelytoky, that the bees had the first hatched virgin queen lay a miracle egg. Otherwise, she must have made a mating flight on the day she hatched. Is that possible? I'd love to see if there really is a queen in there but I am leaving them alone for at least a week. If I don't see a queen in there then and they still sound queenless I will give them a queen cell and some open brood.

The other two queens that hatched out, one on April 24th and the other on the 26th, are both now mated and laying. YAY! What happened to the missing queen? Not sure. Maybe she left with a swarm like I thought they seemed to want to do. Otherwise I guess she must have been lost trying to mate.


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## Colleen O.

Metropropolis said:


> Sounds like some pretty small hives to keep colonies in. I don't know your local conditions, but around here bees would be swarming out of such shoeboxes every 5 minutes come July.
> 
> Not sure what your intent is of keeping so many small colonies.


My intent is to keep two full sized hives and three nucs. The nucs are for sustainability, especially since I am treatment free. Having two 8 frame mediums on top of a couple feet of KTBH will expand my hive size greater than my current size hive of just under 4 feet. I don't consider that small. Right now the one nuc split into two is small but not so bad with the super on and I plan on moving one of the colonies out into a new hive (which I need to get building!). I wanted to be sure I liked how the hive design was working out before I took the time to build another full size.


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## Colleen O.

Things seem to be going well. The side that was able to requeen promptly is doing great. They have the KTBH part mostly drawn and are working on finishing that and are starting to draw in their super. The queen looks great and her pattern is excellent. I was a little worried it was too early for her to get well mated but right now it looks like it worked out well. I need to get busy making a full size hive for this colony.

The side that had the mystery queen cell is doing okay. They are starting to draw new comb but only partials on two of the new bars. The mystery queen cell looked like it had hatched but when I looked last Friday I didn't see a queen but did see cells with multiple eggs in the bottom (but they were on comb that was being newly drawn so still a bit shallow). Concerned about Laying Workers, on Sunday I gave them a queen cell from a split of my Buckfast colony. The cell would have hatched Thursday and today I saw a queen that looked pretty similar to the first virgin queen that disappeared (not at all like my Buckfast). I also saw what appeared to be good single eggs in the bottom of the cells that had multiples the other day. It leaves the mystery a mystery but truly it doesn't matter, I'm just happy to see a queen in there. Time may tell though, because the MNH queens laid the occasional yellow eyed drone. Whatever her lineage, hopefully she gets laying and they get back on track. Since it is behind, this colony will stay in this nuc after the other one gets moved to a hive.


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## Oldtimer

There are at least two logical explanations for the multiple egg to laying thing. One is that new laying queens will sometimes lay multiple eggs if room is short, but rarely more than two in a cell. The second is that the hive had laying workers concurrent with a virgin, as a queen breeder that happens sometimes in my nucs if one has been queenless a while before getting a queen cell, the laying workers will not kill the new virgin and will keep laying for a time even after the queen mates and starts laying, meaning I have to wait a while before I can decide if the queens own laying is OK.

You can tell either of these scenarios, if the cells that had multiple eggs are in worker cells but become drones you had laying workers, if they become workers it was the queen.


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## Colleen O.

Oldtimer said:


> ...The second is that the hive had laying workers concurrent with a virgin, as a queen breeder that happens sometimes in my nucs if one has been queenless a while before getting a queen cell, the laying workers will not kill the new virgin and will keep laying for a time even after the queen mates and starts laying, meaning I have to wait a while before I can decide if the queens own laying is OK.
> 
> You can tell either of these scenarios, if the cells that had multiple eggs are in worker cells but become drones you had laying workers, if they become workers it was the queen.


Thanks for the insight Oldtimer. It is looking like your second scenario is what was going on. All the capped cells in this nuc are drone. They are a pretty consistent pattern but I think that is just because there weren't many open cells to lay in versus a drone laying queen. She is still in the nuc and I saw cells with single eggs in the bottom so it looks like she has started laying. This side is a bit behind due to the queen issues but the other side is going strong. They were a tiny bit of comb on one bar away from having the KTBH part fully drawn and are drawing the Lang super. I took two mostly hatched out/new eggs laid combs out and gave them to the other side to give them a boost and help swap out the old shorter bars. It also gives me some time to build another hive.

I took some pictures I'll try to get them downloaded and post.


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## Oldtimer

OK well wait at least 8 days then check those latest eggs do become workers. Some queens can only lay drone eggs & if she is one of those there is no option but kill her.


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## Colleen O.

Oldtimer said:


> Couple things from a management point of view, probably you already know this but just in case, when you put a super on top they will not move in if it is totally foundationless, you'll need 2 or 3 combs in it that reach all the way down to the bee cluster, to act as a ladder for the bees to move onto and up to the top of the next box.
> 
> The brood area seems small, the bees will be very keen to move into any boxes added long as they are set up right, but they will likely expand the brood nest into these boxes as well.


Spot on. I had added one to two combs to the super and the bees laddered right up and now have it almost fully drawn. You were also correct about the likelyhood they would expand the broodnest into it. The queen was up there laying when I inspected. I had to take another bar out of both the broodnest and super (gave them to the sister nuc) to give them more room. I have got to find the time to make another hive or nuc or they may decide to swarm on me. I didn't see any queen cups but there were eggs in newly drawn drone sized cells in the super. With this separated into two nucs, on each side they only have six bars for the broodnest and five frames in the super. I do have two more medium supers, I suppose I could paint them and put them on to give the bees more room and me more time.

I have to say the colony in this hybrid nuc is expanding much faster than the other split (done at the same time from the same queen mother) that I put in my regular style KTBH. This one has had to draw all new comb too, plus I took three fully drawn brood combs out and gave them to another nuc (I'm not counting the bar I took out of the super because it was the last of the old style bars that I had put in for the bees to use to expand into the super). The one in the regular KTBH is in a different location but they got mostly drawn comb and still are behind this one.


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## Colleen O.

ruthiesbees said:


> I did something similar as a test for this year. KTBH with super. I will contain an established colony so I don't expect to be getting into the brood box very often. Super is heavy enough without it being full of honey. I'm also going to try getting them to build comb in the glass jars.
> 
> The super is offset from the bottom box by 3/8" for the bees to use as an entrance on the right side. Once they get into the super, there are bars with holes in them to get down into the brood chamber. I don't know if I'll use both bars or just one bar, or cork a few holes. If the honey super is not in place, the bees will still use the top entrance and go between the roof and the brood box.
> 
> View attachment 9348
> 
> View attachment 9349
> 
> View attachment 9350


Ruthiesbees, how is your hybrid nuc working out? Did they move up into your super?


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## ruthiesbees

Colleen O. said:


> Ruthiesbees, how is your hybrid nuc working out? Did they move up into your super?


I ended up with my new package in that one instead of the 2yr old colony as planned. From what I understand, a 2nd year colony is still in the building mindset and totally take off in the spring. Well, I didn't get to try that theory. Package took off very nicely in there. But my standard TBH (blue one) decided to be queenless most of the spring and I was raising a nuc to get a friend started. So I was constantly pulling bars of brood out of this hybrid (green) one. Then just 3 weeks ago, they decided to supersede their packaged queen (which is not unheard of for packages) so at the moment, they have a virgin queen and no brood.

So long answer to your question, is that they have not even attempted to draw comb in the supered area, even though they have complete access to it every time they enter or exit the hive. I plan to feed this syrup this summer (July and Aug) in hopes that they will continue to drawn out comb, and maybe by the fall, they will be ready to start working the super. Once I finally get enough comb and bees, I will move honeycomb up there to get them started. I'm hoping that the queen stays "below deck".

On a positive note, I just harvested my first comb of capped honey. The full bar wasn't capped so I just cut out a section of the top bar comb. It was tupelo honey, and oh so sweet!


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## Colleen O.

ruthiesbees said:


> ...So long answer to your question, is that they have not even attempted to draw comb in the supered area, even though they have complete access to it every time they enter or exit the hive. I plan to feed this syrup this summer (July and Aug) in hopes that they will continue to drawn out comb, and maybe by the fall, they will be ready to start working the super. Once I finally get enough comb and bees, I will move honeycomb up there to get them started. I'm hoping that the queen stays "below deck".
> 
> On a positive note, I just harvested my first comb of capped honey. The full bar wasn't capped so I just cut out a section of the top bar comb. It was tupelo honey, and oh so sweet!


Sounds like they were doing pretty well to be able to donate combs. Hopefully requeening doesn't set them back too much. Keep me posted on how the move into the super goes when the time comes! My routed bar sides have worked out well so far but the bars are a bit of a pain to make. I don't have enough time for everything so I had a mill bid making them and settled on them doing part and I will do the angles to make the bar bevel and then route the sides. Nice aspect is with over half the work done it will actually cost me less than I spent at a big box store on the poplar blanks to make the first bars (the increased length of these meant I was only getting one bar per blank instead of two).

I harvested a little recently too. Nice isn't it?! I don't really want to feed this year but I may end up doing it if they stop drawing comb before the colonies are large enough to overwinter. Right now this nuc is close to being filled but it has two colonies and I want to go into winter with both of them double this size with separate accommodations.


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## shannonswyatt

I'm pretty much done with packages. I purchased on this year just because the club was buying a bunch and I didn't want to see them stuck with them. Dead queen in the package, Doh. Get another queen from the supplier and put it in the hive in the cage. I had some drawn comb in the hive so they started packing away the syrup. Check and they decide to supercede the second queen. To hell with that, if they are going to supercede I want them to raise a queen of my liking, so I put in a bar from my favorite hive. During the month until they were queenright I was feeding them a bar of capped brood each week to keep the numbers decent in the hive and they continued to bring in syrup. Finally queenright, but the laying pattern is meh, not god awful, but not great either. I'll give her a few more weeks, since I've heard that some queens take a while to get their act together, but my three other nucs that started with way less resources are doing great. 

I think that I will feed that hive a bunch and bust it into two hives in a few weeks and feed like crazy to get them through the summer.


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## ruthiesbees

Colleen O. said:


> My routed bar sides have worked out well so far but the bars are a bit of a pain to make. I don't have enough time for everything so I had a mill bid making them and settled on them doing part and I will do the angles to make the bar bevel and then route the sides. Nice aspect is with over half the work done it will actually cost me less than I spent at a big box store on the poplar blanks to make the first bars (the increased length of these meant I was only getting one bar per blank instead of two).


How long are your bars? Beeline apiaries sells their top bars for .90 each plus shipping. I just ordered a bunch from them when I built the super. You can also order their end pieces and then buy your own 1x12's. And I am no carpenter, so I wasn't going to mess with trying to make my own bars.


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## Colleen O.

ruthiesbees said:


> How long are your bars? Beeline apiaries sells their top bars for .90 each plus shipping. I just ordered a bunch from them when I built the super. You can also order their end pieces and then buy your own 1x12's. And I am no carpenter, so I wasn't going to mess with trying to make my own bars.


These bars are 19" long, same as a frame, so that they fit both the broodnest and super. My old bars were 17.5" which meant I could get two out of one poplar blank. The wedge part is the same, old and new, but the ends are longer.


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## Colleen O.

shannonswyatt said:


> I'm pretty much done with packages.


I hope I am too. I had one ordered for this year but canceled it when two colonies made it through the winter. The problem is my better queen was balled and killed after I marked her and then the other colony is a Dink, undoubtedly struggling with mites. I split that colony in hopes of getting a colony that deals with the mites better but this has all put me back in the position of having a bunch of nucs and no production colony. The daughters of my better queen look promising, especially the one in this nuc that looks like her, but now I need to get her in a hive proper so that they can expand before the summer dearth hits.

It would have been nice to catch a swarm but so far no luck and I only have one box left out.


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## ruthiesbees

I got my package from California. It was shipped to Mann Lake in PA and then someone from our local bee club drove up to get them. My preference is to do nucs for first time TBH beekeepers, but I wanted to say that I had tried both. And in reality, when you have drawn comb with pollen and brood to give a package, they do quite nicely. It even turned into a 3rd hive from the extra queen that I ordered. And the California Queen Bee was huge compared to the local mutts. I now have at least 2 of her daughters running my hives and possibly a third.

As far as the bars are concerned, the ones from Beeline are also the standard Lang length of 19". Here is a picture of the way they attach the center piece. I like it because it is nailed in. Have had zero trouble with comb attachment to it.


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## Colleen O.

ruthiesbees said:


> As far as the bars are concerned, the ones from Beeline are also the standard Lang length of 19". Here is a picture of the way they attach the center piece. I like it because it is nailed in. Have had zero trouble with comb attachment to it.
> View attachment 11749


Thanks for the bar info! They look nice, especially for the price.

I've got the one piece bars with the full wedge on the inside. I think the wedge is 15 1/4" long, which lets me have maybe a 1/4" gap from the sidewall to the start of the wedge. The mill is already making bars for me or I would check out if the Beeline ones would fit. Would be a big savings!


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## shannonswyatt

I think if I lost everything again I would go with nucs, even if it meant Langs. The locals bees do the best.


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## Colleen O.

*Re: Bearding!*

The bees in this nuc are running out of room so I put two more medium supers on. I didn't intend to use these together because the existing ones are cut down deeps that ended up a little short so the frames in them don't have bottoms. They are also a little wider. Just trying to buy some time/prevent the swarming urge but it meant I couldn't pull a drawn frame up. I'll need to make a couple more bars or more frames without bottoms so that I can put some drawn comb in the new super. Right now it looks like they are drawing the last two bars in the existing super in the stronger side. Snapped a quick pic


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## Colleen O.

I harvested my first capped bar of comb from one of the supers this week. It was one if the two old style bars that I had screwed an adapter piece of wood to so that it would fit the medium super. It was there so that the bees would ladder up into the super and start using it. Worked like a charm! Now that they are building on the frames I can take the old ones out as soon as they are capped. The remaining one had one side fully capped, the other filled but not capped.

On the lower super the frames don't have bottoms (on the upper super they do) and I have noticed the bees sometimes attach comb all the way down to the top bars of the broodnest. It hasn't been too bad yet but I plan to buy an extra set of 5 frame mediums so that I can just use the full frames.


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## ruthiesbees

can you take a picture of what you are talking about in regards to a bee ladder? Can't quite picture what it looks like.


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## Colleen O.

ruthiesbees said:


> can you take a picture of what you are talking about in regards to a bee ladder? Can't quite picture what it looks like.


  The combs are the ladder. On here or in some books I've read people talk about the need to provide a "ladder" for the bees to climb to get started working the super.
Most times for Langstroth hives I see it suggested to move two drawn frames up for this purpose. (Oldtimer mentioned it earlier in this thread that I would probably need to move a couple combs into the super.) When I put the super on with the empty drawn combs in it, it was amazing how fast they moved up it. Flowed like water!


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## Metropropolis

ruthiesbees said:


> can you take a picture of what you are talking about in regards to a bee ladder? Can't quite picture what it looks like.


A bee ladder is a very tiny ladder, typically made from matchsticks, used to assist bees in getting up into the supers in Langstroth hives. It is not necessary to use these in Top bar hives.


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## Michael Bush

>can you take a picture of what you are talking about in regards to a bee ladder? 

The best is a frame of drawn comb pulled up from the box below. Next best is a frame of foundation. Either will give the bees something to climb up to the top bars.


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## ruthiesbees

If a piece comb is all that is necessary, I think "ladder" is a bit of a misnomer. It should be called "bait".


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## shannonswyatt

Nah, I think a ladder is appropriate. If you put an empty box on top they sometime build from the bottom up making a huge cross comb mess. But having that stairway to the top it is easy for them to get up there and draw it down.


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## Oldtimer

You are kinda right Ruthiesbees, it is not an actual ladder, with rungs.

But I think ladder is a useful description. Because lot's of new players go foundationless, and when it's time for them to add a box on top, they think you just put it on, and the bees somehow find their way to the top & start building combs from the top bars. 

This will be an ongoing education issue as long as new beekeepers keep starting out. The word ladder is not a perfect description, but does convey the idea of giving the bees something to help them climb up to the top, so as an easily grasped educational concept it is probably useful.

Course it does not apply to single level TBH's, but a lot of people eventually experiment with extra things.


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## shannonswyatt

I think for Lang folks the idea of pyramiding the frames is simpler.


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## Michael Bush

>It should be called "bait". 

No, I think it's a ladder. They can't easily cross that 5" or more gap from the bottom bar to the top bar without a ladder.


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## ruthiesbees

Michael Bush said:


> >It should be called "bait".
> 
> No, I think it's a ladder. They can't easily cross that 5" or more gap from the bottom bar to the top bar without a ladder.


With all due respect Mr. Bush, do their wings not function once they get inside the hive? (I'm sure you will say it's dark and they don't fly in the dark, they crawl) Until I see it play out myself in my hive, I still think the piece of comb is something to draw them up into the other empty box. Something to make it more attractive to them. My bees have no problem crawling along the side walls, and I've watched them fly in my observation hive from bar to bar. And since the top bar comb (or Warre comb) doesn't actually come down and touch the other bar, I don't see how it can be a ladder. 

I will agree to disagree (politely) at this point. I was just trying to get clarification on what the ladder was, and I now understand.


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## Oldtimer

ruthiesbees said:


> With all due respect Mr. Bush, do their wings not function once they get inside the hive?


I guess they do. However bees operate as a cluster. They are not comfortable operating some comb in a different area that they have to fly to.




ruthiesbees said:


> My bees have no problem crawling along the side walls, and I've watched them fly in my observation hive from bar to bar. And since the top bar comb (or Warre comb) doesn't actually come down and touch the other bar, I don't see how it can be a ladder.


As it does not connect, you are right, it is not a ladder. At this point it is an artificial construct that has come about as a result of you setting the hive up that way, had the bees just been dumped into the hive empty, they would not have built it that way.



ruthiesbees said:


> Until I see it play out myself in my hive, I still think the piece of comb is something to draw them up into the other empty box.


Yes that's what it is, bait. It would work a whole lot better though if the top comb was in contact (a gap of one bee body), with the bottom comb. The hive could then function as a normal hive. At this point they are struggling, their goal is to build the top comb down & join the whole thing together but they do not have the manpower.

Here's the pic of the hive for those who have not seen it. 
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...050.1073741838.687315994628267&type=1&theater


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## ruthiesbees

Oldtimer said:


> Here's the pic of the hive for those who have not seen it.
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...050.1073741838.687315994628267&type=1&theater


This is not an operational hive. This is my display hive where I park a bar of bees or two when I introduce a queen to a long time queenless colony, or for taking to the county fair. This is NOT the hive that I have supered, and it is not anything at all like the hybrid hive that was the original discussion of this thread.


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## Oldtimer

Oh sorry, my bad. I assumed it was the observation hive you had observed bees flying in from one comb to the other.


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## Michael Bush

>With all due respect Mr. Bush, do their wings not function once they get inside the hive? (I'm sure you will say it's dark and they don't fly in the dark, they crawl)

Correct. I've never seen them fly in the hive. To fly they need to see. It's dark in the hive. I've only seen them walk and crawl in the hive. If you open a hive in the dark you will find this is true, usually to your dismay as they crawl and cling and sting rather than fly.

>Until I see it play out myself in my hive, I still think the piece of comb is something to draw them up into the other empty box. Something to make it more attractive to them. My bees have no problem crawling along the side walls, and I've watched them fly in my observation hive from bar to bar. And since the top bar comb (or Warre comb) doesn't actually come down and touch the other bar, I don't see how it can be a ladder. 

Without a comb in the middle they tend to build up from the bottom bar. With a foundation or a drawn comb in the middle they tend to build down from the top. What is your explanation?


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