# Is smoking bad for my bees?



## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Smoking is bad for people, but bees die in 3 to 4 weeks this time of year. On the humorous side smoking is worse for beekeepers. It is more important to get the bees and you comfortable working together. If that means smoking the entrance, under the cover, and every frame - smoke 'em.


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## Jami (Jul 14, 2011)

Sounds good, I'm much more comfortable with that idea. I should pay attention to how I word my posts 
when I said he smokes himself, I just mean he smokes his beesuit with the smoker - not that he actually "smokes" 
Is that true that smoking them makes them eat more honey?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

One a day won't do much harm. But, when they get up to a pack per day, that probably isn't healthy for anyone, bees or humans.


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## pturley (Oct 4, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> One a day won't do much harm.


Dang it Mark, you beat me to it!


As for the bees, I was taught do both. Create a cloud of smoke around myself at the start to mask my own scent, then only very light puffs for the ladies.

Sincerely,
Paul E. Turley


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Two for me. One for you.

Blame the heat. sorry. But I think you got the advice you needed. ditto what has been advised.


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

It starts with smoking.
Then they start hanging around the pool hall instead of working the flowers. 
Next thing you know they are buzzing down to the bar sucking mint julips looking for queens on the corners.
Then they start working the poppies. 
It just keeps going down from there. CCD everytime.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

It was meant to be slightly humorous, however it is particulates inhaled that can cause respiratory problems and lung cancer. What bothers me most is beekeepers burning cardboard because of the formaldehyde glue and cloth that contains nylon and polyester. If you read the tags, very little does not contain synthetics. The response is usually something like the bees die soon anyway or it is just once a week. If you look at the inside of your smoker there is quite a bit of tar and ash in there.


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## Jami (Jul 14, 2011)

okay, humor I can handle as long as everyone isn't outright mocking me  although I spose I'd get used to that too


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You are a good sport.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

I imagine every hive is different, but I am lucky enough that my hives are very calm. If I use smoke it makes the girls PMS kick into high gear and the attitudes suck. I have stopped using smoke at all and can bust into the hives all the way to and through the bottom deep without a bother. Now I imagine things are different when its time to collect the honey, but until then, I am going to go smokeless!!


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

BeeGhost said:


> If I use smoke it makes the girls ... and the attitudes suck.


I have found that to be true also. I now light the smoker and keep it handy, but usually only use it to chase bees out of the way so that I can set a box back without crushing them.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

If smoke is making the bees angry, then you're probably over-smoking them. If they just make a sudden, strong buzzing sound (kind of like an engine with one quick step on the gas pedal) that's normal - it's a reflexive burst of wings moving of for a second. If they're mad, they'll be all over your face.

There was a long thread just recently about smoke. It had a lot of good stuff in it. I'll look to find it.

Wait, here it is. Look through this one here.

Adam


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've lived in a tipi for months at a time. I breathed a lot more smoke than the bees would in one opening in one day. You shouldn't be opening the bees more than once a week and probably not more than once a month. So it's a very minor amount of smoke if you are doing it right. You're not making them breath a "pack a day". You're just giving them a puff or two every month or two. There is no comparison to smoking. They are not in the same ball park.

The most common smoking mistakes:

•	People have the smoker too hot and burn the bees with the flame thrower they are wielding
•	People use far too much smoke causing a general panic instead of simply interfering with the alarm pheromone. One puff in the door is enough. Another on the top if they look excited is ok and after that having it lit and setting nearby is usually sufficient.
•	People don't light the smoker because they think smoke upsets the bees, probably because of one of the above reasons.
•	People blow the smoke in and immediately open the hive. If you wait a minute the reaction will be completely different. If you’re doing something not too time consuming, like filling frame feeders or something, it’s a good plan to smoke the next hive before you open this one. That way the minute will be up when you open that one.
•	People don’t smoke because they have the idea that it is either bad for the bees or somehow unnatural. Their exposure is only a puff or two once every week or two. People have been smoking bees for at least 8,000 years that we have documented for one very good reason. Nothing works better at calming them.

These mistakes may lead you to believe that smoking them is a bad idea. Not making them will convince you otherwise.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I am not exactly an old hand at beekeeping (3 years, so far), but it always amuses me when first-year beeks proudly proclaim early in the spring that their bees are so gentle that they dont need to use smoke. Then we get a bunch of posts in the late summer about mean bees.... 

Keep your smokers lit and use them.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Just adding fuel to the fire but..... 

Bees have very short lifespans and are insects and don't have lungs and don't get cancer. Don't worry about it.

However, if you have become reasonably skilled at manipulating a hive and have reasonably gentle bees, a smoker should seldom be necessary. I almost always keep one lit and handy though in case I come to a hive which is a bit grumpy that day or in case I drop a frame or box and make them angry.

Time, experience, and practice will lead you to the conclusions Mr. Bush has made above.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Solomon Parker said:


> Just adding fuel to the fire but.....
> 
> Bees have very short lifespans and are insects and don't have lungs and don't get cancer. Don't worry about it.


Maybe so. But, it all depends on what you are burning in your smoker.

Let's not forget that many of the chemicals that make their way into the wax combs stay there for the duration.

Also, there's the possibility of contaminating honey by burning the wrong fuel in your smoker.

If you don't want to use a smoker, try 1:1 apple-cider vinegar:water in a spray bottle.


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## Kazzandra (Jul 7, 2010)

WLC said:


> If you don't want to use a smoker, try 1:1 apple-cider vinegar:water in a spray bottle.












Apple Cider Vinegar = Acetic Acid

Acetic Acid is like Formic Acid, only slightly weaker.

Acetic action dissolves the chitin of exoskeletons. If they're running, they're running because you are literally HURTING them. Whether or not it's because you're killing them, I'm not sure.

I hear that you can use Acetic Acid to disinfect comb and equipment WITHOUT any brood or bees in it to disinfect it of nosema, but that's a different story altogether.

If you REALLY need an alternative, there's sugar drench or liquid smoke. I have both in my arsenal, but you have to known when to use what. The sugar drench, with lots of lemongrass and peppermint and thyme, is good for them and delicious, but it causes clumping, and is not effective at all at removing bees from the top bars. In fact, they'll clump up there drinking it. You can bee brush them from there or liquid smoke them. But I always have that smoker lit and ready!


And yes, they eat honey when you smoke them, but it goes in their honey stomach, where it is not automatically digested. They return it to the frame when they discover they don't need it.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Apple-cider vinegar has a low concentration of acetic acid in it. You're thinking of glacial acetic acid.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

WLC said:


> Apple-cider vinegar has a low concentration of acetic acid in it. You're thinking of glacial acetic acid.


Yes. By time you dilute it you are talking a couple of percent acetic acid. Hardly anything to worry about.


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## Daniel Wasson (Jun 2, 2010)

How do you spray advocates handle a day like I am having?

Outside temp is 64.8°F with a variable breeze of 5 to 10MPH. I have several combines to get done, and the schedule for the rest of the week says today is the only chance I have.

Can you get enough spray on your bees to be effective without chilling or other detrimental effects on the hive? 

Do you switch to actually useful and universal smoke when your weather is not conducive to using a liquid coolant on your hives and bees? What if the work needs to be done today and can’t wait until weather is more suitable for wetting your bees? 

How long after you have sprayed them down do they return to normal activity? With smoke and correct manipulation mine seem to return to normal very quickly.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I use it as others use a smoker, without the hassles. A spritz or two to knock on the front door, and another spritz or two under the roof. If I'm moving frames, another spritz or two, If I'm moving bodies/supers, the same thing in between. I give them 30 seconds after each before I go in.

It works by the same principal as smoke. It masks the alarm pheromone.

However, if I was a commercial guy or in AHB land, I would stick to a smoker because it's a 'best practice'. Besides, the other beekeepers would tease me.

Do any of you have any idea how many different chemical compounds are found in smoke from burning plants?

You certainly don't need all of those compounds to get the job done.


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## Corvair68 (May 10, 2011)

As a strong supporter of medical marijuana I thought is would be a good idea to use it in my smoker. I figured if it worked for people it would likely cure all the bee problems to, but after the first hive I forgot what I was doing and found my self head first in a bag of Doritos with 40 thousand honeybees. I swear they were talking to me.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

You bring up an interesting point: are you masking the alarm pheromone or are you intoxicating the bees when you smoke them?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> Also, there's the possibility of contaminating honey by burning the wrong fuel in your smoker.


Is there anything specific you are refering to that beekeepers commonly use in their smokers? Or uncommonly? I have never heard of anyone who had concerns that their honey might become contaminated by smoke from a smoker.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

It's a common fact that smoke contains high levels of Dihydrogen Monoxide: http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html


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## Daniel Wasson (Jun 2, 2010)

Yes, but is there enough to make their wings droop?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Well you know exposure to any chemical is bad, especially an _*inorganic*_ *chemical*  like Dihydrogen Monoxide.


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## Daniel Wasson (Jun 2, 2010)

WLC, and others. Please take no offence to what I might have to say here. It is really not intended in the way it may sound. I wouldn’t try to sway opinion, or change the way you chose to work your bees even if you were using a garden hose rather than a spray bottle. I am simply trying to follow the thought process that led people who use misting rather than smoke.

Has the propaganda on TV and in schools become so effective that people now simply have such a smoke aversion that it is just “bad”, regardless of the context? 

Is the 10 minutes of smoke from a fire really more of a detriment to the bees health and well being than the hour or so it takes the bees to clean each other off after being misted? 

I have a buddy that uses a spray bottle, and in my observation his method seems correct. He is not aiming for bees, or trying to wet every single bee in other words. But, it takes much more time for his hives to return to normal when being worked, than mine do. I have direct observations on this, and direct experience. When I am working his hives I mist, or use nothing, because they are his hives and I work them as he wants it done. When working mine, he is not willing to use smoke, and so does without. 9 out of 10 times when I work my colonies, the smoker is lit but is not needed or used anyway, so it works out.

I have never had much luck trying to move bees around with a spray/misting bottle. It seems if they get hit they just stick and immediately start trying to get the substance off of themselves. Soon others are there attempting to help with the cleaning, and now I have a larger clump of bees where I wanted none. With smoke they can be easily moved all over the hive, or in little circles if you were so inclined.

Because there are 4096 compounds and chemicals in smoke doesn’t really become a factor in this either, the way I see it. There are volcano, forest fire, automobile exhaust, and the list goes on that nothing can be done about. We all, people and bees breath it all day every day. Unless, the fuel I use is a concentrated chemical, plastic, or some other substance, I am not creating a problem. But, if it makes you feel like you are doing your part by not striking match I am pleased for you. 

So, I guess I have put myself out there enough. I was actually hoping for some direct responses to the questions I originally asked but I am thinking that this boils down to a matter of perception. Greater good, or greater harm, depending on perspective.


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

Now my two cents. The nicotine in the smoke coats the antennae of the bees, effectively masking (clogging up their smellers) the pheromones of the hive. The bees have some little hooks on their front legs that they use to comb the antennae to rid themselves of the nicotine. 

The smoke causes the bees to become confused and they automatically suck up some honey just in case they have to move. With a full honey stomach, the bees become lethargic and very calm. It does not harm them in any way. As long as you don't hurt a bee individually, then you can work for about 3-5 minutes before needing to puff them again.

In the old days, we would use burlap (tow-sacks) for smoker fuel. But the manufacturers started putting chemicals in the twine to keep the rats from eating through to the grain. This chemical was playing havoc with the bees' demeanor. I use either pine straw or wood pellets from the bee suppliers. Either works well.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I wonder if every last practice of beekeeping was always endlessly questioned, or if it's just really gone crazy since CCD...

Now it seems like every long-held method is in question and potentially 'bad'. I suppose its logical to some degree...

Adam


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, do you really need the 4,096 or so compounds to get the job done?

Some beekeepers use Juniper to both smoke their bees and knock down varroa. I'd say that it still depends on what's being used in the smoker.

There's a bunch of research out there studying olfaction in the Honeybee, including this one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20155982

It puts together, for the first time, key proteins involved in Honeybee olfaction all in one place.

Hopefully, one day soon, you won't have to ask the question, 'Is smoking bad for my bees?' because smoking bees will become an anachronism. Your smoker will be replaced by something far more effective and practical.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>inorganic chemical like Dihydrogen Monoxide. 

Yes, by definition not organic... no carbon at all, let along chains... 

>Hopefully, one day soon, you won't have to ask the question, 'Is smoking bad for my bees?' because smoking bees will become an anachronism. Your smoker will be replaced by something far more effective and practical. 

I've tried all the currently touted solutions, except the vinegar, I've done essential oils, syrup, water, liquid smoke and even this stuff from Europe (back when I had those really hot Buckfasts) in a aresol can called "Fabi.." something or other. None were any where NEAR as effective or as practical as smoke.

As for bees eating honey because of smoke, I have opened plenty with and without (mostly without as I'm always looking for queens) and I see no difference in the number of bees who are filling up on nectar. I don't think it is in any way related to the mechanism of calming bees with smoke. It's the interference with their sense of smell, IMO. I'm not sure why nicotine was mentioned. Unless you are using tobacco (and most people aren't) there isn't enough nicotine to matter. If you are using tobacco then you should keep in mind that nicotine is an insecticide...


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

Michael, 

You need to talk to Dr. Jamie Ellis [email protected] of the University of Florida in the Entomology Dept. He is the one who told me of the Nicotine in the Master Beekeepers College.


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## Corvair68 (May 10, 2011)

WLC said:


> You bring up an interesting point: are you masking the alarm pheromone or are you intoxicating the bees when you smoke them?


I was only kidding. Marijuana would be awfully expensive smoker fuel, but when my bees start making me millions, I'll have to try it!


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Peaches said:


> Michael,
> 
> You need to talk to Dr. Jamie Ellis [email protected] of the University of Florida in the Entomology Dept. He is the one who told me of the Nicotine in the Master Beekeepers College.


I am not going to call Dr. Jamie, but I am fairly certian that there is no nicotine in the wood pellets that I use in my smoker, nor in any of the other fuels that are commonly used. Unless you are using tobacco or some other member of the nightshade family.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Corvair, I know that you were being funny.

Nabber, I also know that you were being 'funny' with the dihydrogen oxide (aka H2O/water) gag. Not funny.

However, I think that the OP has raised a valid point that deserves to be taken a little more seriously.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

WLC said:


> Nabber, I also know that you were being 'funny' with the dihydrogen oxide (aka H2O/water) gag. Not funny.
> 
> However, I think that the OP has raised a valid point that deserves to be taken a little more seriously.


DHMO gag not funny? You didnt fall for it did you? 

Anyway all joking aside. Back to the original post: Is smoking bad for my bees?

If somebody makes a highly dubious claim like nicotine is commonly present in smoker fuel (other than tobacco) and uses a fallacious argument (appeal to authority)* to back it up, I call BS. Simple as that.


* I think you can find several hundred similar fallacious arguments on the DHMO website. Not funny there, but it's OK here?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

"He said he doesn't actually smoke the bees, he just smokes himself, which makes the bees avoid him."

Nabber, that's funny. Some bee guy said this to the OP.

But, I don't think that the improper use of a smoker, as explained by Mr. Bush, or issues with what is being burned, or what is getting into the hive is humorous.

Now, if someone is saying that nicotine is being produced by smoker fuel...?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

OK I am thouroughly confused. Are we talking about traditional bee smoke fuel (pine needles, burlap, etc.) or the specific _*use of tabacco*_ as an alternative fuel? I assume the OP was related to smoke in general and it's use on bees. 

My apologies to Peaches if she was specifically refering to the use of tobacco as bee smoke fuel.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I think that the OP was confused by what others have said about using a smoker.

I don't think that tobacco is involved with Peaches' post.. As for Dr. Ellis, he's doing work on pesticides in hives. Perhaps he was referring to neonicotinoids?


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> If somebody makes a highly dubious claim like nicotine is commonly present in smoker fuel (other than tobacco) and uses a fallacious argument (appeal to authority)* to back it up, I call BS. Simple as that.
> 
> I'm not sure what "fallacious argument" means, but before you say it is BS, go to the quoted source and find out. You cannot say nay if you don't check.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Peaches:

I think that it's great that you're taking the master beekeeper's course.

I must admit that I'm curious about nicotine as a product from smokers.

Do you still have your notes and handouts from the course so that you can give a context for your description?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Peaches said:


> Nabber86 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure what "fallacious argument" means, but before you say it is BS, go to the quoted source and find out. You cannot say nay if you don't check.
> ...


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

All that I could find was this:

Title The effect of smoke on the volatile characteristics of honey. 
Authors Tananaki, C.; Gounari, S.; Thrasyvoulou, A. 
Journal Journal of Apicultural Research 2009 Vol. 48 No. 2 pp. 142-144 
ISSN0021-8839 
DOI 10.3896/IBRA.1.48.2.10 


http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20093143286.html

So, at least we know that someone has taken a look at how smoker fuel can affect honey.

I'd have to agree with Nabber, Perhaps you (Peaches) should contact the course instructor or Dr. Ellis (are they one and the same?), and ask for a clarification or at least a reference.


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

Here is a small insert from the Honey Bee lab at the Ohio State University.

http://www.honeybeelab.com/2011/03/20/swarming-questions-answers/

I am waiting for a reply from Dr. Ellis.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

According to the 'Group III. Relatively Nonhazardous: These materials can be applied with little harm to bees. Regardless, follow label instructions.'

Nicotine is relatively nonhazardous.

http://www.honeybeelab.com/wiki/Fact_Sheet:Protecting_honey_bees_from_pesticides

Maybe we'll find out what Dr. Ellis described soon.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I thought you said Dr. Ellis was from the University of Florida? 

Either way, I would like to hear his input.


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

Ok Everybody,

I have to eat Crow and no salt. I apologize to each and every one of you. I was wrong and here is Dr. Jamie Ellis of the University of Florida's answer.
Quote>Hey Peaches,

Good to hear from you and hope you are well. I don't think that smoke coats the antennae. The smoke simply "masks" the alarm pheromone. The best example I have is cologne. We still stink. It's just that the overpowering cologne masks our odor. It's similar for bees. The smoke simply hides the alarm pheromone.

Hope this helps!

Jamie

Jamie Ellis, PhD
Assistant Professor of Entomology
Honey Bee Research and Extension Laboratory 
Department of Entomology and Nematology 
University of Florida 
Bldg 970 Natural Area Drive 
PO Box 110620 
Gainesville, FL 32611-0620
Phone: (352) 273 3924
Fax: (352) 392 0190
Email: [email protected]
http://www.UFhoneybee.com
http://www.AFBEE.com

I will now shut up and stay in the background for a while.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Peaches, 

No Crow! The info that you provided by way of Dr. Ellis is very good. There really is no "winners" or "loosers" in a science debate. There is only the data that is provided and we can all advance from there. You provided a direct, creditable reference that is extremly rare on an internet forum.

Thanks.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Jami said:


> My aunt and I both started beekeeping this year, and we each have "our" expert bee guys that we originally got our bees from and that we get all our info from, and her guy said something interesting -
> He said he doesn't actually smoke the bees, he just smokes himself, which makes the bees avoid him. He said if you smoke the bees they will go into the hive and eat honey.
> Just curious if this is a kind of fringe idea or if a lot of people do this.


Smoking only hurts the bees if they................inhale!


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

I think in Cali they load that smoker with cannabis leaves and then they get the munchies and eat all the honey.


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