# 46 Degrees and Windy/Inspector Showed Up



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Call the inspector up and ask him what he did. It wouldn't make sense to me that he would do something to the hive that was detrimental. I don't suppose he would have his job too long if he when around killing people's bees.


----------



## justusflynns (Aug 2, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Call the inspector up and ask him what he did.


I'd prefer to avoid the possibility of creating an adversarial relationship. That's why I posted my questions here.



Acebird said:


> It wouldn't make sense to me that he would do something to the hive that was detrimental.


That's why I have reasonable questions.



Acebird said:


> I don't suppose he would have his job too long if he when around killing people's bees.


I couldn't care less. And that has nothing to do with what has already been done to my hive.


----------



## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> I'd prefer to avoid the possibility of creating an adversarial relationship. That's why I posted my questions here.


Its not possible to have any other kind of relationship with someone who has 'inspector' in his title.


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

It's an annual practice my inspector shows up in October, usually when it's raining and 45 degrees. In NY they always call 1st. We've never had that issue with the South Carolina inspector. I agree with don't make waves unless it's necessary, everyone should be professional but that doesn't mean you won't get someone who is not.

I would not let an inspector open my hives at below 55, although we open hives at 45F and I've done emergency work at those temps you are distubing what is a solid cluster and if there is brood you could potentially end up with chill brood if the cluster was disturbed too long although unlikey.. Having said that, hopefully your inspector is knowlegeable enough to carry it out and only disturb the cluster to the 1st couple of brood frames, at a time when the bees have enough warm time to reorganize the cluster. I would pick a warm day and make sure a queen didn't get rolled and killed but other than that I would be suprised if you saw any real damage to a strong hive.

I would call the inspector for a get aquainted call, thanks him for doing the inspection and suggest he call you next time so you can observe the inpsection as you'd like to learn from anything he/she might know. Inspections is a pain but I've had some good inspectors who taught me a great deal.


----------



## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

My bet is 
The inspector 
Looked into your hives
The inspector
Didn't pull brood 
The inspector 
Verified the brood and amount of bees 
The inspector 
Gave you an A on hive health
Id say Your inspector is knowledgeable enough to 
Inspect without dismantle

JMHO


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I wouldn't think he would need permission to look through your hive if you're not home. If your wife gave him permission maybe she should make him wait next time.

I would guess he just opened the inner cover to take a quick look, When it warms up check your hive, you might be able to tell which frames were broken free from their winter propolis. If they have been locked down since fall.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

na, all he would of done was pull a frame an quickly check your two hives. 
dont worry about it


----------



## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

If like most states the inspector is over worked and under paid (be glad your state still funds one). Probably spent a minimal amount of time so that he could get around to all his other appointments. He probably did what I do on my first spring inspection. Looked, listened and smelled. Listen = bees alive, looked=pop the top quickly not removing any frames = nice size cluster, smell = you just know what healthy bees smell like. Maybe quickly pull a frame or two of brood if something looks/smells amiss. IF you have chilled brood you will know it in a day or two when they start dragging out the dead brood but I think it is unlikely. By the way, the inspector probably lurks on here and already knows your concerns


----------



## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

Our inspectors here in Florida are great. They will take the time to answer any questions you have. They are not like some of the building inspectors I had to deal with when I built my house. They were a pain. 

I would not worry about your hive. They are normally in and out very fast. Most inspectors are only really concerned about foul brood. So they pull a couple frames of brood and then move on. They are not there to do a full inspection pulling all the frames out. You should be fine.


----------



## bnm1000 (Oct 12, 2011)

It bothers me that an inspector from any branch of the government would just show up without setting up an appointment.


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Er, flynn, it looked like bird up there offered some fair thoughts and observations to you but you appear to resent his remarks or something. :scratch:

I think if you called the inspector and asked him what he did it would depend on your tone of voice and true intentions as to how he would respond. If you speak with an inquiring "I want to learn" attitude then you will probably make a contact that sees your interest and will be glad to share information with you now and in the future. If your voice on the phone arrives at his ear with an accusatory tone that he "violated" your bees (opened your hives up when it was too cold) he is a human being and will mostly likely note your attitude for future reference. Bee clubs are great for "networking" but bee inspectors know most *everybody* in the region that keeps bees and sometimes when you're in a tight for something they just might know somebody that can help you out...a good contact to have.

I can understand your concern after you've lost all of your hives over the last couple of years, Doug. I would imagine the bee inspector has a good bit of experience working bees in your area, though, so I wouldn't be too much worried about what he did. It seems like it would be a :thumbsup: situation that your bees are coming out of the winter well enough to get a good report from the inspector. 

Now, if you ever come home after the bee inspector has been there and find 5-gallon buckets of water on top of your hives then you need to get prepared for a hurricane. (my will power is weak, bird) 

Ed


----------



## justusflynns (Aug 2, 2012)

Thanks to all for the helpful input. Apologies to bird and swamp if you were offended. Obviously, I know I could call the guy. Also, I certainly don't think anybody is running around deliberately desiring to do any harm. And I'm not upset about him showing up and inspecting unannounced. I would like to meet him and be able to go through the hive with him though, but not because I question his judgement, I just enjoy it and would like to see if my understanding matches up with what he is seeing. I would prefer to do it under better conditions, and I really don't want to risk giving a wrong impression for the very reason some have mentioned, it is a valuable relationship. I thought I had more time to call and ask for an inspection. At some point I'm sure I can set something up and I think the likelihood of establishing a good working relationship would be much better when I am asking him to show up rather than explaining things afterward.


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

How else would anything get regulated BNM1000? That element of surprise keeps things from being hidden. If I knew he was coming and had something to hide, that would be great!


----------



## bnm1000 (Oct 12, 2011)

Paul - I am a big proponent of individual property rights. I don't believe an inspector should have the right to show up and go on your property without you being present. Now in this case, the wife probably gave permission so that is a different situation.


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

How else will we have rule of law? If enforcement agencies cannot enforce what is the point? That being said, courtesy goes a long way, but in the end, look at enforcement officials such as game wardens or livestock inspectors. They can go anywhere at anytime in most places - and without a warrant. It's the only way to catch violators in the act. Your bee inspector, most definitely is a type of enforcement official.

All this governement hating is killing us. These positions are like they are for a reason, usually because of a past problem - have some sanity lest we turn completely into a nation of scofflaws and criminals..


----------



## jeremygrenon (Mar 15, 2013)

A quick inspection--I think they'll be fine


----------



## bnm1000 (Oct 12, 2011)

We do have the fourth amendment which protects your right of privacy against search and seizures. The police can't randomly search you without just cause. The government can't come into your house without a warrant. I am a big believer in the rule of law, but bee inspectors shouldn't have more power than the police. Our county requires you to register your pets. Would you be upset if a County Inspector showed up while you were at work, let themselves in to your house in order to verify whether or not you had complied with the local pet ordinance? 

I am sure that a bee inspector would have to follow certain rules and protocols, not just show up at your house unannounced. And if they did show up unannounced, I would bet that you would have the right to refuse them access if you so chose.


----------



## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

Exactly. 

Laws are there to protect us from the government, not the other way around. If ever find an inspector going through my hives (not even sure if we have them in my state) I will hold him at gunpoint and call the police. Period. If he does not comply I will treat him like any other hostile trespasser. 

On the other hand if an inspector calls me up and says that he would like to check on my bees I may consider letting him unto my property and letting him take a look as long as he understands that I will consider anything he has to say advice and I will not take orders from him without a court order enforced by armed police. (And even then...)



> All this governement hating is killing us. These positions are like they are for a reason, usually because of a past problem - have some sanity lest we turn completely into a nation of scofflaws and criminals..


Rule of Law is only as good as the laws. 

I wonder what it would be like to be as trusting as you. I don't even trust my own parents with the faith you have in the government. The government is nothing more than people, who in the most part are stupid, selfish and cowardly. They are no better an no worse than anybody else, which is why they should be trusted no further than you would trust any other stranger.


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I would be pretty ticked if the Inspector showed up unannounced and looked through my hives without my permission. Anybody can fake official looking paperwork and claim to be something/someone they are not. If somebody wanted to steal some hives it would be great if they had the opportunity to inspect them first and make sure they were worth taking.

In this situation I would call the state inspector and verify that he inspected your hives.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Aerindel said:


> If ever find an inspector going through my hives (*not even sure if we have them in my state)*


Montana certainly does have apiary inspectors. In fact, if you have more than 5 hives you are *required *to register with the MT Department of Agriculture. Details here:
http://agr.mt.gov/agr/Consumer/honeybees/


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Thankfully our state ran out of money for county inspectors decades ago... in 1986 our moron showed up unannounced at a remote countryside site because most sites here are suburban and he probably was underqualified to arouse bees in a neighborhood. He came in June, middle of the flow, tore down a double brood chamber with six filling honey supers and found what he claimed was AFB in the brood chamber. When I harvested the 180 pound crop I did find three cells in the brood with some kind of scale. The hive lived happily on with no outbreak of AFB. He had placed a burn notice. It was already illegal to burn in the county due to smog regulations. I offered to bring the hive to his site of choice for burning, and never heard from him again. I still use the boxes he scrawled AFB on and have not had any consequential AFB problems over the years. I doubt that at the time he had 1% of the bee working experience that I had and probably never did get any.


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Aerindel said:


> Laws are there to protect us from the government.


Exactly what is wrong with people these days. They forget THEY are the government.

Laws are in place to keep our civilization functioning and keep the strong from overpowering the weak.


----------



## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

I would call just to hear the inspector's observations. We don't have inspectors here, thankfully but I wouldn't object to a surprise inspection if we did.


----------



## Shelbee (Mar 26, 2012)

Justus
The inspector who checked your hives was probably Bill Troupe. He is responsible for all Carroll Co and all the western counties. With so much ground to cover, he usually gets to your hives once every three years. He actually inpects all year round and brings a dog trained to smell foulbrood.
He will be a speaker at the Carroll Co. Beekeepers short course this Wednesday evening coming up. I welcome you to come to the class and I will introduce you to him. He may even bring his dog with him. The class is held at Carroll Community College in Westminster.
He is very knowledgeable and very friendly and helpful.


----------



## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> Laws are in place to keep our civilization functioning and keep the strong from overpowering the weak.


Laws are just a few words and piece of paper. The only thing that ever protected the weak was for the weak to get stronger, or get stronger friends. 



> Exactly what is wrong with people these days. They forget THEY are the government.


What a great idea, I think somebody tried to start a country with that as a founding principle once but it didn't turn out that way.

Bee inspectors are NOT part of MY government. As far as I am concerned they are enemy spies at the worst and busybodies at the best. Neither is welcome on my property. 

Personally I don't think its worth dying for to go poke around inside someone else property just to see if they are doing it the right way. I guess thats why I'm not a house breaker or a bee inspector. 

What are we going to have next, people who come and look through your dirty laundry to see if you change your underwear often enough? Maybe someone would like to come inspect my cats litter box and see if she has any parasites. Heck, maybe we should just stop having bees at home and turn them all into the government so they can manage them for us.



> Montana certainly does have apiary inspectors. In fact, if you have more than 5 hives you are required to register with the MT Department of Agriculture. Details here:


Then they better call before asking me to bend over or they are going to have a real bad day.



> I welcome you to come to the class and I will introduce you to him. He may even bring his dog with him. The class is held at Carroll Community College in Westminster.
> He is very knowledgeable and very friendly and helpful.


Its good to know the inquisitor who checked the OP's hives was competent. Still doesn't change the fact that its a violation of basic human rights.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

justusflynns said:


> I'd prefer to avoid the possibility of creating an adversarial relationship. That's why I posted my questions here.
> 
> 
> That's why I have reasonable questions.
> ...


You shouldn't fear asking questions which tghe inspection report doesn't make clear and the Inspector should be willing and able to answer in detail any question you have. I am surprised that inspections are done under such conditions. I run hundreds of hives and don't tear hives apart when conditions are as you report.

If you don't get satisfactory answers from the Inspector call his/her boss. You have the Right to know and they are Civil SERVANTS. They are there to serve your needs, not theirs. Speaking as an Apiary Inspector of 20 years experience.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

tommyt said:


> My bet is
> The inspector
> Looked into your hives
> The inspector
> ...


There is no way to do that w/out dismantling the hive and looking at each frame.


----------



## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> If you don't get satisfactory answers from the Inspector call his/her boss. You have the Right to know and they are Civil SERVANTS. They are there to serve your needs, not theirs. Speaking as an Apiary Inspector of 20 years experience.


So since you may actually know something about the subject, did you perform inspections without permission/notification or did you actually work with your beekeepers? What is the common practice?


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Paul McCarty said:


> and keep the strong from overpowering the weak.


oh, Wow! Is that ever a pipe dream.

For the most part laws are in place to keep the majority of people happy. The laws may not be fair or the enforcement of the laws may not be fair. But usually when they don't keep the majority happy they are changed. But not in the case where the strong and powerful are concerned. That is what strong and powerful means.

In the case of the unannounced inspector, did someone file a complaint that caused the inspector to do the inspection that day? I would like to know that. I don't think you will find the answer to this case on beesource. The answer lies in the department of inspection. You must inquire or your brain will just go off the deep end, probably for no good reason.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> You must inquire or your brain will just go off the deep end, probably for no good reason.


:lpf:
:ws:


----------



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Inspectors get a bad rap and are misunderstood for the most part. I have had the opportunity to meet many inspectors. Most of which were nice, personal, and willing to help out. 
It would behoove anyone to ask an inspector if you have any questions. After all, they ARE the professionals and have seen it all basically.
I once called a building inspector on his cell phone #(which he gave me earlier). He answered, gave me the answer to my question and THEN told me he was on vacation in Florida at the time of my call! lol He talked to me for over 20 minutes after that.


----------



## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

Aerindel said:


> Laws are just a few words and piece of paper. The only thing that ever protected the weak was for the weak to get stronger, or get stronger friends.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You should check your states Apiary law, it may allow inspectors to come onto your property without permission. Inspectors are there to check for AFB which most states have laws requiring something be done, pending lab results. I've inspected for two states and both required prior notice as a courtesy. Depending on circumstances, he may not have been anticipating the cooler weather but had to perform the inspection anyway. He probably would have looked quickly and closed up the hives. However, I wouldn't have dared to inspect a hive at those temps, why, because I wouldn't open my own hives during those temps


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Montana Code:


> 80-6-201. Apiaries -- powers and duties of department. (1) To prevent the spread of pests and contagious and infectious disease among bees and apiaries, the department may:
> (a) enter private land containing an apiary site and fly over or enter any farm, railroad right-of-way, or other grounds or premises containing an apiary site to determine the health or ownership of the bees. The department shall provide at least 24 hours' notice to a private landowner before entering private land.
> 
> _More here:
> _http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca/80/6/80-6-201.htm


Clearly, Inspectors are required to provide 24 hours notice, but they are *not required* to gain permission from the land/hive owner.

If you are paranoid, this part is especially interesting:


> (4) The department may enter into agreements with the United States department of agriculture, other federal agencies, other states, municipal authorities, and individual Montana beekeepers in carrying out the provisions of this part.
> 
> http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca/80/6/80-6-201.htm


----------



## jeremygrenon (Mar 15, 2013)

I always remember that the inspectors are there to ensure that hives infected with foulbrood do not spread this to other hives in the area. As a past commercial beekeeper here in Vermont, there used to be more concerns with hives that were allowed to foster foulbrood year after year and soon it could be like an epidemic in the area (if hives were'nt treated). While I agree with all of you about government, I try not lose focus on the purpose of bee inspecting---I never view the inspectors as a threat, but a way for you to improve your hives. If your hives are unhealthy then it only makes sense to be aware of it and do something about it----no one benefits from unhealthy hives.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Aerindel said:


> So since you may actually know something about the subject, did you perform inspections without permission/notification or did you actually work with your beekeepers? What is the common practice?


Policy was to make contact by phone to arrainge inspections. It was not always convenient for the beekeeper to be present, but the option was avilable. Appointments were hard to set up, having so many Apiarys to attend to. But if the owner insisted arraingements were made.

Doing inspectiopns w/out notification only makes for hurt feelings. I was turned away a number of times. Which was no big deal since there were plenty of other locations to inspect.


----------



## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> There is no way to do that w/out dismantling the hive and looking at each frame.


 Explain 

FWIW 
I have never had an inspector dismantle


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

tommyt said:


> My bet is
> The inspector
> Looked into your hives
> The inspector
> ...


You can't determine hive health w/out removing frames and looking at the brood combs. That's where one would find AFB if it were present. You can't determine the presence or absence of varroa w/out sampling bees in some manner. Which also requires handling frames.

What you describe is not an Inspection.


----------



## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> You can't determine hive health w/out removing frames and looking at the brood combs. *i said nothing of not removing frames I said didn't pull brood* That's where one would find AFB if it were present* yes one could find it as you speak and it could be found with smell and other hints that would then require more in depth tests *. You can't determine the presence or absence of varroa w/out sampling bees in some manner.
> *bees can be acquired for sampling without pulling brood or dismantling hive *
> Which also requires handling frames. *Again I said Nothing of NOT handling *
> 
> ...


. Don't you just love B Source :thumbsup:


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm not going to argue w/ you tommyt, you just don't know what you are talking about and I'm not syre what you are talking about. I guess by "pulling brood" you must not mean removing brood frames from the hive and visually looking at the capped brood, but something else I guess.

Smell testing for AFB is very inaccurate. One will miss anything other than a full blown broken down case. Unless perhaps you have a nose like a dog, which MD has used to check hives for AFB but no longer does, afaik.

How do you do an ether roll (the most accurate and my prefered method) or powdered sugar roll w/out removing frames and scooping bees off of a capped brood frame? 

Maybe my use of the word "dismantle" was misunderstood. What I meant by dismantle was to remove the cover(s) and then removing the frames, so visual inspection of each and every frame could be done.

How do you inspect a beehive for diseases and pests of honeybees? How does your State Apiary Inspector go about doing an inspection for diseases and pests?

The purpose of inspecting beehives, as far as a State Authority is concerned, is to determine the state of health of beehives w/in a State. If all one does is check to see if a hive is alive and of good strength and doesn't smell like AFB that doesn't determine what needs to be determined.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

tommyt said:


> . Don't you just love B Source :thumbsup:


Yes, I do. Not that I understand what you mean by that.


----------



## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

So, a knowledgable keeper or inspector can determine accurate varroa levels and presence of AFB, even scale, without opening a hive. Hmmmm, very interesting. I must have more to learn then I thought!!


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Just what I was thinking. I guess I was doing it all wrong for all those years. Whomever tommyt is describing, I ain't that guy. But I would love to have him working as an Apiary Inspector. Can you imagine how much more someone like that could get done? Eight or ten like him could inspect all of the registered hives in NY.


----------

