# Swarm control - Demaree preferred over Checkerboarding?



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I know the Demaree method of swarm control has been around for awhile, and now-a-days most people prefer to use Checkerboarding because it is less invasive and less labor intensive, but, does anyone prefer the Demaree method, and if so, why?

A friend is a commercial beek, and he uses Demaree because he feels it is less dependant on perfect timing and has a higher success rate. In other words, the time to start Demareeing is not as dependant on the specific conditions in the brood nest of each hive. Instead, he can choose a date in early Spring and go through his enitre apiary in one visit and Demaree all the hives and know they are good for about 3 weeks.

I am not tryng to imply or suggest that one method is "better" than the other. Rather, that some beeks may find one method better suited for certain situations.

I've done a lot of reading on the two methods here on Beesource and elsewhere, and noticed lots of people who don't Demaree or Checkerboard are quite happy to talk about how to do it and how well it works, etc., so I was hoping to hear from some "real world users." 

Thanks!



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## gunter62 (Feb 13, 2011)

I'm curious as well!


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

If you are curious about swarm reduction and mite control and expansion, you should go to mdasplitter.com and spend these cold winter nights reading thru the different parts about three times. I use the system and it works for me. I get new queens in my strong hives, as brood break to slow down the mites and they don't swarm. The queens in the small splits I take replace that queen by supercedure and it is a win all over.


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## Stonewall (Aug 27, 2013)

Given the location of one of my bee yards, I am not in a position to tolerate swarms (not that I would want them anyway). I have done some checkerboarding in the past, however my application of that method is likely poor. 

In my area, southern piedmont of North Carolina, March 15 appears to be a useful date to Demaree the hives. This date will vary based of the specifics of the season. When the stronger hives start making several cups, I know it's time. At that point I demaree all the hives of strength. This may have to be repeated once and I do a cutdown split on about 20 April.

This may not be the best way to accomplish this task, but it has served me well. I would be interested in the opinions of others in this matter.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I demareed 2 strong hives last year. Just did it once, rearranged and removed the excluder a month or so later. Neither hive seemed to swarm and made a reasonable amount of honey. Also they did not supercede their Queen. Hives I did not demaree swarmed and/or superceded their Queen.
If my hives come through winter and build up I will do more in 2015.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You can do a full Demaree or you can do a simplified Demaree. Either way the end result is a split or at least a new queen. The full Demaree takes a bit of manipulation (siphoning off bees from the bottom to the top or vice a versa) while the simplified Demaree takes a lot less manipulation. If you just put a double screen between two brood boxes and make sure they both have an entrance the queenless part will raise a queen, after which you can either split them or remove the screen and let a supersedure take place. You could still use the toggles on the double screen (assuming you have one of those that have the full Snelgrove setup) to even populations out if one is too crowded.

You'll see there are some variations among the people doing the method. Usually they differ by how much work is put into the process.

http://www.kentbee.com/stw/bm~doc/demaree-method-of-swarm-control.pdf
http://barnsleybeekeepers.org.uk/demaree.html
http://countryrubes.com/images/Swarm_Prevention_By_Demaree_Method.pdf
http://www.honeybeesuite.com/demaree-demystified/


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I have done both. Checkerboarded hives seemed to get a later build up one year and swarmed the second year when my spring was two weeks early. Demaree is heavy on getting manipulating them every 10 days. I missed a cycle and had found open QC in the upper box (all my hives build big supercedure cells in the top box). They still did not swarm but ran two queens until I split the hive in half (I just added a cover rather than the screen MB mentioned at that point). I will need to look to modified demaree method for this year although I did raise excellent queens. Update on my CB experiment on year 3 I just checked to OA and it was dead. I have two full supers of capped honey over a deep I need to deal with.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I think each is performed under different circumstances, so it's difficult to compare. 

Checkerboarding is done early in the season before swarm preparations have begun. The feed super is checker boarded with and additional super and through proper supering, swarming is stopped. Demaree is performed after swarm cells are present. Cells are removed and the top brood box is elevated over an excluder and additional brood combs rate given below the excluder. As the brood above the excluder emerges the bees fill the cells with nectar. This with additional brood space for the queen, stops additional swarm preparations. 

Snelgrove similar to Demaree but cells are elevated above the screen and a new queen is mated. Little doors control flow of foragers back to the parent. 

So, they're each different and used differently. Neither is better than the others.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I thought what I did was Demaree...but perhaps it wasn't. There were no swarm cells...just a very active bursting at the seams double deep hive.
I left the Queen in the bottom box with capped brood and some space to lay.
I then put an excluder above that box, then 2 dadants with a mix of empty drawn comb and foundation frames.
Above that I put the other deep with open brood.
Five days later I checked for and removed any Queen cells that were started.
About a month after that I removed the excluder, moved the upper deep above the lower deep and put the 2 dadants on top...they now had drawen comb filled with honey.
No split, no extra Queen in hive...just a hive full of bees.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

WBVC - I am just a rookie, but what you describe is my understanding of the basic Demaree method. Like most beekeeping methods, I am sure there are a few million variations, including those described in this thread. Probably would have to read Mr. Demaree's original article for a strict definition.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Michael Palmer said:


> Demaree is performed after swarm cells are present.


I don't recall reading that the presence of cells was a requirement. I believe that Demaree is beneficial even without cells, in fact, probably more likely to provide good results.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

You're right of course. But, I was just trying to separate the two methods as one being performed with all colonies early in the season, and the other performed later when colonies are strong, the flow is on, and swarming preparations are imminent or underway. I've Demareed colonies before, as an attempt to stop swarming without dividing the colony. It's not a thing I would do automatically with every colony, as I feel there are other and better manipulations that can be done. Walt Wright's checkerboarding is done very early in the season, and has nothing to do with the broodnest. At least that's how I interpret it.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I am thinking Michael has touched upon the main distinction between Demaree and Checkerboarding - Demaree divides the brood nest and Checkerboarding doesn't touch the brood nest.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I have to admit Walt can loose me in some of his writings and its easy to get frustrated with his approach , here is a quote from some of his instruction 

Treat early for mites while the brood volume is less than a hive body of bees.
Verify overwintered colony is queenright.
Checkerboard overhead stores.
Move empty bottom boxes to the top of stores.
Monitor nectar/honey availability at top of the brood nest throughout build-up.
As brood nest approaches 2 hive bodies volume, stay out of the brood boxes.
Maintain 2 supers of empty, drawn comb on top from l-l/2 hive bodies of brood through the lead edge of the flow. 

This part is straightforward , but in step 4 is he moving the bottom brood box or the bottom honey super to the top . Does anyone have the easy guide version to checkerboarding for a new guy .I think once you see it done it would be a fairly easy procedure (since your not messing around in the brood chamber) you could do early in the spring to help stop swarming and produce more consistent honey production even for a new guy .The one problem I can see with checkerboarding for the new beek is not having enough drawn comb available .


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

I've done the demaree method for 2 years on my 100 hives. One thing I like about this method is that it's not written in stone and you can change a few things here and there and in the end, it's possible to not only of prevented swarming but to of requeened the hive. But there is a lot of mucking around with either method. The only reason I've been doing demaree is because I haven't got a nuc box for every hive (i will one day) but to make an easy 4 from nuc with 2 extra shakes of bees to let them rear their own queen to be introduced back to the hive before the main flow (or sold) is much easier.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

chillardbee said:


> The only reason I've been doing demaree is because I haven't got a nuc box for every hive (i will one day) but to make an easy 4 from nuc with 2 extra shakes of bees to let them rear their own queen to be introduced back to the hive before the main flow (or sold) is much easier.


Sorry, I couldn't follow this . . . ?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Don't you speak basic Canadian? He states he lacks equipment to store the frames not chosen to remain in the production hive. When he has enough nuc boxes, he will be able to store the old queen and not chosen frames as nucs to later return them to the colony or sell them as nucs. Anytime!


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Haha. I've been to Chilliwack. I guess I didn't spend enough time there to pick up much of the local dialect, though. Thanks for the translation.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

This is Roy, Walt's son-in-law, posting for Walt. He was out of town and wasn't able to post it himself.

(Walts' reply)


I missed reading this thread when it was current, but I have a few comments.

Barnsley Beekeepers Association in the United Kingdom explains the Demaree Method at http://barnsleybeekeepers.org.uk/demaree.html

This method splits the hive with the queen and flying bees below the queen excluder and the brood and nurse bees above. This alleviates overcrowding and prevents any swarming urge. Over the next 3½ weeks as the brood above emerges and having destroyed or removed any queen cells, the old “mother” box can be taken away leaving a full strength colony behind.

The technique is also useful for making increase. Following the split, the top box is likely to produce a number of emergency queen cells (more likely if there is a degree of separation from the box with the queen by having 2 or 3 supers between). The top box can then be split into a couple of nuclei or, a number of queen cells can be used to make up nuclei using bees from other colonies.

Other than the queen, the bees are left free to move between all the boxes of the split colony during the process. Thus the colony remains at full strength throughout. 
_______________________________________________________________________________


When I was reviewing swarm prevention from the standpoint of a system I might use, this description turned me off, so I've never tried it. I see the first step as crippling colony development.

Leaving the queen below to start over building a brood nest actually arrests colony growth. The system was touted as ‘the only one’ that was 100% effective at swarm prevention, but that was not what I was looking for.

Further, the top box being converted to honey as the brood hatched out was not making surplus. It needs to be lowered in order to be returned to the double deep wintering configuration.

Checkerboarding has the opposite effect. Brood volumes are increased substantially. Target brood volume is about the equivalent of two and one-half deeps of brood. We sometimes get more than three. This extra brood produces extra bees and extra surplus honey.

Walt


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Walt and Roy - thanks for the detailed answer!


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

laketrout said:


> I have to admit Walt can loose me in some of his writings and its easy to get frustrated with his approach , here is a quote from some of his instruction
> 
> Treat early for mites while the brood volume is less than a hive body of bees.
> Verify overwintered colony is queenright.
> ...


This is Roy again. I will try to answer one thing you said, Walt can correct me if I make a mistake. You said, "in step 4 is he moving the bottom brood box or the bottom honey super to the top." You will find that he is talking about moving the empty super that will be beneath the brood box, there isn't a 'bottom brood box'. Walt doesn't use two deeps, "Evils Of The Double Deep" and "Objections To The Double Deep", here: http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/. He winters with a super on bottom, one deep for a brood chamber, and two supers of honey on top, "Pollen Box Overwintering". Also read his article "More On The Pollen Reserve" (It wouldn't hurt to study all of his articles). 

If this thread picks back up, Walt will be monitoring it. Address further questions to him. I only check in here when he asks me to.

Roy


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

shinbone said:


> Walt and Roy - thanks for the detailed answer!


Roy, again. Your welcome. BTW, one thing Walt didn't mention - he has had NO swarms since he started using his Nectar Management techniques, other than when he himself made a mistake.

Roy


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I don't really follow how with demaree the Queen has to start over. Once she has laid an egg she is done with and goes on to lay another regardless of what happens to the previous egg. By moving open brood up it developes, gets capped and emerges...still part of the hive work force. Below the capped brood emerges and the Queen continues to lay.
What have I missed in not thinking the Queen has been set back in her work?
The top box does get moved back down but I think of having winter stores as a good thing. But...I am really new to this bee thing.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

When I studied economics for my Masters work, motion studies were an exciting new concept to me. People made factories more efficient by eliminating all unnecessary motions and arranged work spaces to facilitate efficient completion of tasks. When we scramble up a brood nest, I am sure we really knock hell out of the bees efficiency and they have to move and rearrange an awful lot of furniture. This time would have been used more efficiently and that is how it affects the buildup.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

WBVC,
We included a description of Demarree above. The first part of it says "brood and nurse bees" are raised. The queen may have been on a frame of brood when left below, but the rest of the lower is filled with empties, or maybe the honey from above. In either case, the lower is left a long ways from a growing brood nest. It is this very situation that cripples colony development and results in the excellent swarm prevention. But you might get as much honey if you let them swarm.

Walt


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Is it crippling of developement that prevents swarming? Does checkerboarding upset development by having every other frame filled with honey?
I am not being fasicious ...I really would like to figure out the most effective and practical way to both increase bee stock and honey production in a small scale urban bee yard.
There are so many on this forum with tons of experience and I am very grateful for all the information they share. I have so much to learn and a very short bee production season to practice what I do learn. It is learning, practice and invention that helps us move forward.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

It is my understanding in the Demaree method that some of the brood is below the queen excluder, and some/most of the brood is above the QE. In effect, the Demaree method changes the distribution of the brood from horizontal to vertical, with the queen confined to the lower half and the nurse bees free to move anywhere there is brood. As such, the queen will continue to lay in her typical horizontal pattern, and thus she has a lot of new room to lay in, while the hive still retains all of the brood and nurse bees, with the nurse bees free to move anywhere in the now-vertical-and-soon-to-be-horizontal brood nest to care for brood.

I've never done the Demaree method, but I don't see how/why it would constrain the queen's laying or impair the ability of the nurse bees to care for new brood.






.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think I have read that there is a tendency for bees to NOT put honey below brood, so the brood in the box above the excluder keeps them from putting excess nectar down in the queens laying space in bottom box. That is what I saw last summer in a very limited trial. Maybe that is the mechanism that prevents backfilling the brood and resulting swarm preps.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

wcubed said:


> It is this very situation that cripples colony development and results in the excellent swarm prevention.


Sorry Walt, but I have to disagree with this statement. I don't routinely Demaree my colonies, but I have used it many times and I have never seen a "crippling" effect (assuming swarms are not issued). In fact, I found that Demaree'd colonies often perform very nicely. Seriously, pulling a well-time split can sometimes still result in a decent crop in the parent colony and sometimes in the split. And a big split is far more crippling than Demaree. So why a colony that completely retains all resources will be crippled just doesn't add up. Nor is it consistent with my experience.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

A B,
You are certainly welcome to post your opinion, and if your experience adds credence, all the more so. I meant to add a statement to my first post that the last line of the description excerpt was misleading. That last line dealt with retaining the strength post manipulation.

It is likely almost true for an hour or immediately after the manipulation, but what is damaged is maintaining that strength in the following period of rebuilding the broodnest in the lower.
Bees are dying every day. To gain strength, the colony depends on an increasing flow of new bees. And we moved at least 80% of "new bees" upstairs where those cells can't be recycled by the queen. If they are lucky, the colony may expand the broodnest in the lower to approach a full box of brood during the time the upper was hatching out. In effect, we lost about a half a brood cycle of replacement bees to get back to the starting point, three weeks later. That is a lot of bees, but it wouldn't be conspicuous. A frame of brood hatched out will cover much more space than they emerged from.
All we lost was the potential Growth for the period.

Walt


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

I never used the Demaree system in its fullest expression. What I will say is just based on numbers and on my nectar flow period. I will introduce dates to better explain my reasoning (this dates are very close to my reality) .

The most intense period of nectar begins on 15 April, lasts three weeks, and ends at the end of the first-second week of May.

Suppose I'll perform Demaree technical on the begginings of April in my hives because had many signs of wanting to swarm. All bees resulting from new brood cycle that will be developed from early april, will only be in the field past 42 days, more or less at the end of my flow.

As mentioned above I have no experience with the Demaree technique in its purest expression, but if my accounts are correct some disturbance in the brood cycle that can happen with the technique may have a very small impact on the productive capacity of the hive, in this frame o dates. If I see only part of the picture and I forget some important aspect thank to correct me, to improve my management , because it in several case has been supported in this type of reasoning.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I find that after a couple of times of doing the demaree method that there is no way to move 80% of the bees above the excluder. I was finding that I was moving the oldest of the capped brood back down to the bottom box. I would put some frames of foundation back to the brood nest area when I ‘harvested frames’ with QC from the top box. If you rotate bees to the top box every 10 days (going strictly for frames with eggs or uncapped) the bees are not emerged from the cells at day 10 or 20 so you are forced to push the capped brood back to the bottom box.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

minz,
I don't remember any repeating of the process at any 10 or other day intervals. Where did you get that info?
Not that it matters now, but I was quite disappointed when you reported here on beesource that you were shifting from CB to Demarree. Seemed to be a giant step backward to me. Took the time to type a long PM to you, but lost it trying to send it - was having problems with net interface at the time, and did not feel like doing it over.

There is no contest between the two systems as to which produces the most honey surplus with less time, work and cost. Mr. Demarree is no longer available to defend his system.

Yes. I'm biased.
Walt


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> t if my accounts are correct some disturbance in the brood cycle that can happen with the technique may have a very small impact on the productive capacity of the hive


Eduardo,

I believe that your assessment is correct. However, my apprehension is related to your local conditions. Specifically, would a Demaree at the first of April be sufficient to extinguish the swarming instinct you are seeing? Again, not knowing your build-up conditions, but seems to me that the "beginnings" of April may be too late. Our main flow kicks in roughly the 1st of April, with a peak from April 15 to May 15 and ends 1st of June. Most of our reproductive swarms are cast in March and early April. If our conditions are similar, this would suggest that you should perform swarm prevention methods before April 1st, even Demaree.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Thank you for your answer and your question Astrobee.
My intervention takes into account the age of the queens.
With queens with two years in early April I divide them .

With Queens about year I'm making a "smaller" version of Demaree in early April. I put a excluder and I pulling 2 a 3 frames with open and closed brood in this upper box with two or three more frames of reserves (several times some of this frames are from others colonies). Usually, for each 5 colonies I have one to do this operation. Spent 5 days to a week with I take the frames and the brood and I make a nuc . I may have to do this two or three times until mid-May according to what I observed in the hives. After mid- may usually they loose the swarming fever.

In Queens with 6 months or less usually do not care and I just add supers .

Regarding the anticipation of these timings you're right. Some colonies that leave very strong from winter (8 frames of bees or more and 5 to 6 frames of brood in late February) I anticipate in about 15 days these operations. I clearly remember like it was today that the first time I saw swarming cells was on April 1, 2010 in a hive that came out very strong from winter. Were my first split. He poured me a lesson . As a rule I have, year after year, about 15-20 % of hives where I have to anticipate my swarming management . You 've never been to Portugal? Are you sure you do not?


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Sorry Walt, I figured first year I did not have a pollen box on the bottom, second year they swarmed, and this year looks like the queen liked the shallows too much to move down to the deeps. Queen was chimney up through the shallows and the deep was completely empty. I finally forced her down and used a QE to keep her there at the end of the year. Mid December I was doing OA and found the hive to be dead. Two full shallow supers of honey and bees starved to death in the lower deep. I harvested almost 30 lbs of honey and distributed the rest to the other hives. nectar starts here with plum trees mid April, cherry and apple beginning of May and Mid May the hives have to be to full strength for the flow. By Mid June it is all over for the year. The CB’ed hives did not make the flow in any of the 3 years. I went into winter with 15, lost the CB hive and one that refused to requeen.
On demaree when you move frames above a super you will have an incredible supercedure cell or two on the frames in the top box. Day 10 you need to go back in and deal with it. I was pulling two frames to a queen castle in the hives I liked and culling the qc in the hives I did not. Hindsight I should have took the queen cell from the good hive and the second frame from the one I did not like (so I did not run the good hive back so hard).  I would then push old frames down to the queen box and move egg frames up above the excluder.
I want to go to Portugal, Edwardo what's the best time of year?


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

minz said:


> I want to go to Portugal, Edwardo what's the best time of year?


I would say at any time. 
But if you like sun and warmth come between 15 June and late August. I'm sure you 'll love it . If you decide to go in Coimbra (the city where I live) tell me anything. If you come I wish you a good holiday in my country.


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