# Mite Teatmeants



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

I would like to ask commercial folks......
How many of you run sticky boards or some kind of test to be sure your mite levels (load) is where it should be AFTER doing a mite treatment?
What do you feel is exceptable levels going into winter?
Just an un scientific poll.


Thanks for taking the time to answer.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

We alcohol wash before and after. Efficacy testing is critical. I have seen whole operations get in deep trouble fast because of faulty assumptions about mite numbers and the efficacy of mite control efforts. Sometimes things don't work as will as assumed. Its nice to take the guess work out of it.

I usually start to worry around 10 to 12 mites per 300 bee sample if it is not a breeder queen. 0 to 6 mites is a much more comfortable number.

Keith I sent you a PM. Drop me line when you get a chance.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JBJ said:


> We alcohol wash before and after. Efficacy testing is critical. Its nice to take the guess work out of it.


So true John, but seems many here just don't want to talk about it.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Second the wash method. Too many mite counts are still high after "treatment". If you depend on mite treatments, the only way to sleep at night is to know your treatment actually worked...

I like Medhat Nasr's threshold of 1% because he jokingly points out many beekeepers will not get around to treating until it actually reaches 4-5%. Some queen producers feel even a 1% infestation negatively impacts queen rearing efforts.


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## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

New to the commercial scene with 600 colonies. After APivar treatment, we check counts using wash, and checking the drone brood in each colony for hidden mites. Tedious, but effective. We only wash about 10% of the colonies.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

matt1954 said:


> New to the commercial scene with 600 colonies.


Matt, welcome to the commercial scene. It's all Tedious but necessary. Sticky board is by far the most accurate, But some have bees many miles from home and don't have the option of being there for more than a day, which the wash would be the next best choice. 

Good luck this winter, Matt

Me thinks luck is on your side.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JBJ said:


> We alcohol wash before and after. Efficacy testing is critical. I have seen whole operations get in deep trouble fast because of faulty assumptions about mite numbers and the efficacy of mite control efforts. Sometimes things don't work as will as assumed. Its nice to take the guess work out of it.
> 
> I usually start to worry around 10 to 12 mites per 300 bee sample if it is not a breeder queen. 0 to 6 mites is a much more comfortable number.
> 
> Keith I sent you a PM. Drop me line when you get a chance.


I'd like to suggest that next time you test before and after like you normally do but don't treat one and test it again when you retest the others. Just to see what happens.

Have you ever done an alcohol was on the same hive twice? I have done ether rolls twice and found varying results.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

Alcohol wash here also, before and after treatment. It truly amazes me how many treatments do not work the way they say they do on the box. our acceptable numbers really depend on the time of the year. With brood rearing going on all year round, we seem to have more mites in a wash than most consider ok. 
I know Randy O says his threshold is 2% i believe. We seem to always have 2% unless it is the week after the treatment or early spring. 
We treat once we hit around 10 mites in a roll, it seems here our hives can get up to 30 mites in a roll and be ok much more than that and it is going to hurt. 
Nick


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When you all are doing your alcohol washes are you measuring the bees using a plastic dish pan and a measuring cup? Are you using the double jar w/ the screen in between?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

swarm_trapper;1182 It truly amazes me how many treatments do not work the way they say they do on the box..
Nick[/QUOTE said:


> Well said, Nick


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Mite washes here too. It is quick and allows any sample size. I run a 1% in the spring and up to 5% in the fall unless there is a viral issue. Then it's no more than 2%.
I send my nosema samples away from the same apiary sampling.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

When mite counts don't seem to be moving with treatments I will use an alternative treatment on a random sampling with sticky boards which help determine resistance issues. So far Apivar has been knocking the mites down to almost undetectable in my apiary.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> I'd like to suggest that next time you test before and after like you normally do but don't treat one and test it again when you retest the others. Just to see what happens.
> 
> Have you ever done an alcohol was on the same hive twice? I have done ether rolls twice and found varying results.


We may sample the same have 6 to 8 times in a year ourselves and then the BIP team does the same group hives 2-3 times throughout the season. Each hive gets a unique identifier and is tracked season to season and year to year. 

When screening/testing breeder queen candidates close monitoring is required to determine what is actually going on terms of Varroa tolerance. The growth rates of Varroa can really vary. Sometimes the numbers go way up, or stay the same, or occasionally go down. Its definitely better not to guess.


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

As of now I no longer test for mites. I treat based on the calander. 3 times a year for bees that go to Idaho in summer 4 times for hives that stay in ca. 

When we treat we spot check a few bottom boards and have never been disappointed with the sea of red.

What I have learned is that if I test for mites , the treatment waits till I find them, but in past few years if I find them the hives die, so I treat based on calander no matter what


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

LSPender said:


> As of now I no longer test for mites. I treat based on the calander.


That's how farmers control pests as well; insects, weeds, fungal. Losses can be costly. 
LSPender, do you rotate treatments?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JBJ said:


> We may sample the same have 6 to 8 times in a year ourselves and then the BIP team does the same group hives 2-3 times throughout the season. Each hive gets a unique identifier and is tracked season to season and year to year.


Anything interesting to report from all that data? What does it tell you?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The requirements of most commercials are to have large hives pretty much 12 months of the year. As long as that is the case late summer/fall treatments are pretty much a given. The only real questions are how soon can you get them on, what are you going to treat with and how many applications is it going to require to get the job done. Spring treatments are a tougher call, it depends to a large degree on how low you got numbers the previous fall, how you manage your bees and whether there has been a brood break. I decided this year to err on the side of treating post brood break. Fast and easy and it's probably going to buy you a little time before mites reach "critical mass" late in the summer. 
Monitoring methods? Ether rolls, though perhaps not the best, are fast and easy. I like to see low single digits in a pint jar filled about 1/4 full. In my mind 20+ (6%+) is the danger zone. We also like to sacrifice a small patch of sealed brood, scratch it open and tap the pupae out onto a white lid. It can be a real eye opener by giving you an idea what's "brewing".


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

LSPender said:


> . I treat based on the calander.


We do the same as well Larry, but we do come back with sticky boards to be sure. We treat about 3 times a year, real heavy in the month of late May first part of June, a medium treat in Sept & a flash in January.

We look for 30 or less mites on a sticky board after treatment, 

Thanks all for taking the time to post.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Keith,

Do mind if I ask what you are using to treat in "real heavy in the month of late May first part of June"? That just seems like a really tough time to get good knockdown with all of the brood. Perhaps you are coordinating it with splitting or a break in the brood cycle somehow? When would you say is typically your lowest brood levels in your colonies?

It is interesting, as Jim pointed out, commercial operations require large populations almost year round. This makes keeping mites under control a real challenge, and in some respects an operation, such as Ian's has a distinct advantage to get great control with the proper timing.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

Keith could you also comment on why you feel a sticky board is better than a wash test?


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

swarm_trapper said:


> Keith could you also comment on why you feel a sticky board is better than a wash test?


I was wondering the same...


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Nick, I will start with your question first, when looking at a sticky board many times they do not cover the board evenly, so one side or the other has more or less mites, so when sampling bees it's.... a guess that your sample is the avg. I proved this to myself one time when a friend (that's for those that read the ABJ) did a wash on a hive and said, you have less than 1% mite load in this hive, I said lets put a hot load of amitraz with a sticky board and come back the next day.........Well it was more like 3% plus 
Nick, with mites beekeepers are playing Russian roulette if he/she gets it wrong.
Nick there are three kinds of keepers, 1) make things happen 2) watch things happen 3) or wonder what the hell just happen

I try to stay away from #3 and a sticky board helps me do that


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Nick, with mites beekeepers are playing Russian roulette if he/she gets it wrong.t


Don't discredit washes too much. It works for my operation very well. I'd focus more so on the beekeepers who don't test. They are the ones wondering "what the hell just happened" most of the time! LOL

...and usually the ones pointing fingers as the dust settles...


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

Thanks for the post Keith! Would you mind telling how You use a sticky, to tell when to treat, and if the treatment worked?
I do see your point with the jar washes sometimes we will roll the same hive on two consecutive days and the counts can be very different. The thing we like about the wash is after treatment if we roll and there are 0 we know the treatment worked. 
Thanks again


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

swarm_trapper said:


> Would you mind telling how You use a sticky, to tell when to treat, and if the treatment worked?


Nick, we just will put some sticky boards out, and sample the outfit, if the numbers are high we treat, then we come back after treating with some boards to see if are levels are down to a livable number.
Most of the time we run off the calendar like Larry does But we still take samples. 
How did ole Ragan say it...... Trust by verify.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JSL said:


> Keith,
> 
> Do mind if I ask what you are using to treat in "real heavy in the month of late May first part of June"? That just seems like a really tough time to get good knockdown with all of the brood. Perhaps you are coordinating it with splitting or a break in the brood cycle somehow? When would you say is typically your lowest brood levels .


Joe,

Late may-first of June, is the most critical treatment for us. Treat with your choice of hammer as long as it works for you in your area. Knockdown, yes it's harder, that why I mention hit'em hard. Lowest levels of brood are in Late Dec for us, That's why we can get away with a flash treatment the first of Jan. We don't normally treat after the first week of January until first of June. A MUST to get those bees clean as heavy brooding from Late January---May.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ian said:


> Don't discredit washes too much. It works for my operation very well. I'd focus more so on the beekeepers who don't test. They are the ones wondering "what the hell just happened" most of the time! LOL
> 
> ...and usually the ones pointing fingers as the dust settles...


I think the important thing with any of these tests is to make sure you test multiples in a yard, not look at it on a hive by hive basis. I usually start with 3 and if I am in any way surprised by the results I will check a few others. RO found the wash to be the most accurate method. I find that you always get more mites on the second swirl and drain of the shaker, but it doesn't vary much after that.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

zhiv9 said:


> I think the important thing with any of these tests is to make sure you test multiples in a yard,


ya, our guys here recommend washes over anything else. Probably because sticky boards require more than one trip where as washes can be done instantly. And the extra work involved in spending that day making that extra round counting sticky boards would have guys not get their counts done.

I wash 6 plus hives per yard at random. So about 200 hives get sampled from 1000, 20% of the operation.


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