# stolen bees



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Well well well what goes around comes around. The guy who went behind my back and "stole" four of my beeyards by paying $1,000 cash (yes thats right) was arrested for stealing bees, bee equipment, honey, and much more and is in the Putnam Co jail under 50,000 bond. He was also selling honey without a approved facility, and many more things yet to be seen. Wonder how all this will come out....to read the article go to 
www.palatkadailynews.com or google Ruben Josey.


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## mothergoosemagic (Feb 26, 2010)

"Ruben Josey"

Sounds like a name Faulkner or Kinnan-Rawlins would come up with.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

So are you going to get your bees and equipment back??

People like that are just bottom feeders and their time will come, his did!!

G3


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

he stole my yards not my bees.....if he had stole my bees he probably would be some place other than jail! It is my understanding that the beekeepers have gotten back their bees or at least what was found....evidentually lots of bee equipment/honey equipment besides the bees


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

That's great, I hope they give him 20 years hard labor.


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## ga.beeman (Mar 29, 2009)

glad they arrested him just hope that the fines will be enough to discourage others not to steal other peoples bees. that is just low down


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Last info I got is that several supers of cut comb honey were recovered that were stolen in Georiga. Beekeeper there has identified them as his. Evidentually he was stealing honey, possability blending it with corn syrup (several barrells of food grade syrup were found) and selling at farmers markets(have to wait on test to be sure). He claimed he had 1000 colonies, pollinated almonds in Ca, Cranberries in Wi, numerous vine crops in Fl, put bees on a barge up the apalatchacola river for tupelo and secret spots for galberry and palmetto then to south fl for pepper. IN reality he had way under 100 hives. (Not counting stolen ones). Had a real rackett going!!


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Now you know why I brand my wood bound frames.
I brand one end of my hive bodies with my approved county brand and the other with my name.
Color coding can be used and if you want the hive paint can be micro chipped.
We have sent a few bee rustlers to the California Prison system
Ernie


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## suncoast (Feb 10, 2010)

Ernie, 
Do you know where to get the micro chips?

Kevin


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## magista (Jun 1, 2009)

I'm putting up a sign at my apiaries: 

Bee Rustlers Shot On Sight!

For real though, people are jerks. Glad they caught this clown.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

"We have sent a few bee rustlers to the California Prison system"

And one of em was packing some lead in his (deleted).


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## concrete-bees (Jun 20, 2009)

sun--- the chips are the same ones they use for dogs - about the size of a grain of rice 

talk to some local vets -


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## BigT (Mar 6, 2006)

Many years ago when I was younger, my uncle that first got me involved with bees had every hive stolen from one of the locations where he kept them. We went there to check the bees one morning and all that was left were the cinder blocks where the hives had sat. I was probably no older than nine years old and I can still remember the feelings that I felt on that very day. I keep my hives at various produce farms and I can't help but worry about the same situation happening to me one day. I hate a low life theif.
Big T


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

How does someone "steal" 4 beeyards for $1000? Did they pay the landowners $250 each to be allowed to put bees in the beeyard?

If that's the case, they didn't steal the yard. The former beekeeper just got outbid. That's known as legal competition in business. (Unless you had a contract giving you exclusive rights to the beeyard.)


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Here's a news source:
http://www.cafresh.org/agalert/AgAlertStory.cfm?ID=28&ck=33E75FF09DD601BBE69F351039152189

To deter thieves, a microchip technology initially developed to identify lost pets is now being used to assist the beekeepers. The microchip technology, developed for pet identification by veterinarian Hannis Stoddard of Norco, has unique identification numbers that cannot be altered. The chip is so small that it can fit easily into a hypodermic needle. Beekeepers are now inserting the same chip technology in the wooden frames of their beehives. 
Ernie


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

google "datadots" also.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

countryboy.

He rented the large farm which I had four yards on for $1,000. ( I was giving the old fellow 5 cases of 24 1# jars or 2 gallons per yard double what most rent is plus a little comb honey). BUt CASH looks good! There is a unwritten rule in beekeeping you may not be aware of. YOU DO NOT GO and put bees next door to someone who had had bees there before you. Nor do you go behind another beeks back and take his yards. If you do you might find burned hives or find yourself in a bad physical condition. IT may not be illegal but it is unethical. In this case I hired him to help me for two days, after I sent the bees to Ca to almonds he went to land owner and gave him 1,000 CASH, now I knw why he helped me! (We had some heated conservations which required the local sheriff to mediate) If you go to Florida and do this wo be unto you. This year I saw a beekeeper put about 100 hives just across fence from another beek who had been putting bees there for 30 years....he gave him 36 hours to have themgone or they would be dead! You just do NOT do those things !!!


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## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

One must be careful what one does or says to another person or person's property. Threats of killing another person's colonies, destroying hives, or threats of physical harm can lead to much more than one expects.

I personally do not take kindly to such thinking. Remember "What comes around goes around". Kill my bees, expect to be in court. No one has the right to threaten, steal, kill, or otherwise to another person's property or person.

I hope people get their stolen items back and get at least some payment for the stolen honey.


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## oldenglish (Oct 22, 2008)

So if I understand you correctly you would be more than willing to break the law just because what somebody did was unethical ? Around here that would get you "three hots & a cot"
Also I would say that unwritten rules fall right in with verbal contracts - not worth the paper they are written on.

Now that said I hope the scumbag gets what he desreves.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

Never be afraid of a barking dog.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

When it comes to bee sites IMHO you have to have a code of ethics that beekeepers stand by otherwise it would be a free for all.
If you have a honey producing area that will hold 100 hives and you have your hives in that area then another beekeeper shouldn't put his bees within flying distance of your yard/yards.
It's just plain old common decency and luckily for us 99.9% of beekeepers in our region adhere to that code.

frazz


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

So, let's see. If you have you hives on a piece of property, and I buy the farm across the road, and bring my hives with me, I could expect to have them destroyed? 

I would not move my hives on someone else's property, close to another's hives, but if I bought a piece of property, and I wanted to put my hives on it. those hives would be there. 

You cannot destroy someone's property or threaten them, just because they do not live by your ethics. I agree that he should not have jerked the property out from under you, but the landowner was as responsible as he was. And, there is nothing illegal to him outbidding you. 

Quit whining.


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## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

I put a hive on a friends property. My bees are within flying distance of at least 2 other yards. Trust me on this, just because my bees got their last, there is no reason I shouldn't have put a hive on his property when he asked me to do so. The other thing to trust me on is that if another beekeeper comes onto his property and starts messing around. That other beekeeper better be faster than a 30-06.

I believe being rude to other beekeepers, threatening harm to their property, telling them they cannot have bees in a certain area, etc.. Is one reason there are fewer beekeepers and fewer new beekeepers.

If I have a 5 acre bit of land and the fellow next door has a bit of land with hives on it, he has no right to tell me that I cannot put bees on my property. At first threat he would be reported to the State Apiarist and either the Police or Sheriff.

Basically this post has alerted me that there are thug beekeepers out there. I will be on alert and take proper steps to protect myself and my bees.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

While all of you have good points...how many of you are commercial beekeepers and make your living at bees? If you moved your hives onto your property and you OWNED it not alot would be said...or for that matter if you were a hobbist with a few hives no problem. But if you moved in next to or do what the guy did in Florida your going to have BIG problems from most beekeepers. Yes you may sue him BUT CAN YOU PROVE he burnt them? I was a firefighter for many yrs...to prove arson you almost have to catch the guy with a match in his hand. But I can guarantee you he WASNT a barking dog....his teeth was showing and he was a pit bull ready to attack. He had been putting bees in that yard since 1980's. In Florida your bee forage can change dramatically just down the road, If you have some good spots you keep them..they are HARD to come by. The beekeeper who moved in, moved in just across the fence...very unethical. Before I move in a area I try to find out if another beekeeper has bees in that area and if he does I dont move in on top of him. I try to treat prople like I want to be treated. In my case $1,000 for those yards was a little high....but using stolen honey money guess it was cheap! And I wasnt a barking dog....if he took another of my yards he would have gottenmy rath....the sheriff asked me if I threatened him...I said NO I made him a promise....if he took another yard it wasnt a question if I was going to come after him it was WHEN. Let me assure you that there MANY MANY more beekeepers like me who will do the same. THose spots are VERy difficult to find and you defend them at all cost. Bees are everywhere in Fl...and if your smart you dont go behind someones back. I believe YOU SHOULD NEVER stab someone in the back....but I will defend whats mine!


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Findley...I dont think you are understanding my point....if the forage area will support those bees and the landowner wants bees thats differant. One hive is no problem or for that matter 6 or 7. In the orange flow NO ONE says anything about bees being close as there is enough forage for all. Some yards have 200 hives with another yard 1/2 mile away or closer. BUT if I have bees on a property or for that matter any beekeeper has bees somewhere no one should go and try to get those yards, its just not the proper thing to do. Now if someone isn ethical....I'm sorry..but I'm not politically correct so now we have a problem. The person who moves in on top ( I'm talking 50-100 hives not 2 or 3) is the problem not me. But this guy didnt care whose toes he stepped on. As LONG AS HE GOT what HE wanted he didnt care. These type people are the ones that make life miserable. I try to help anyone, even find a location. I have taken bees to Fl for two differant beekeepers and furnished spots so they didnt loose them. But if noone has any ethics its a shame. Im not arguing just telling you how it is.....if you move right on top of someone with large yards there is going to be problems....and the state bee inspector wont get involved....its not his job...the sheriff might, but if your bees are dead a year later how can you PROVE who did it? Just be ethical and work togather...find a spot that is not on top of someone. Occasionally someone puts bees some place where he didnt know someone was across the fence....then you work togather try to help him find a spot down the road. But there are rogues and perople will walk all over you IF you let them.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

frazzle well said!


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## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

There comes a point when an area becomes over saturated with bees. Too many bees and not enough nectar sources. Rather than threaten one should inform the new beekeeper that the area is already saturated with hives. Once you do this he/she might move their yard to another location. However, unless you have a legal leg to stand on, you cannot force them to leave.

One way to catch someone is with a camera. A person gets a threat, cameras go up. Some are so small you will never even see them. Some even stream live data wirelessly.

Now, if someone did burn hives that belonged to someone else, don't you think that person would do the same in return to every other hive in the area. Wouldn't happen right away, as there would be people watching bee yards. However, the next year you might find the same thing done to you or every other hive known to be in the area.

Anyone know of anyone that has successfully sued another beekeeper for moving in next door or putting hives in an area close to another beekeeper?

At least in Ohio a person can record a conversation without the other party knowing it is being recorded as long as the party doing the recording is part of the conversation. Keeping a voice recorder now seems like a good idea.

Now, if I was a commercial beekeeper and I knew the area was already saturated with bee yards, it would not be in my interest to setup a new bee yard in that area as it would most likely not be productive.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

I totally agree with your first paragraph! your right on it! You got to remember the number of hives in Fl is VERY differant than Ohio...no comparassion.. And no you cant sue them and no it isnt illegal, but like you said we need to communicate if we get into that situation. But with this type guy...he was stealing bees, equipment, honey beeyards and on and on a totally differant situation where communication will not work. In the situation where the beekeeper that came in he put 200 hives about 100 yards from the first beekeepers 150 in plain sight in a area for buildup that would support 150. The beekeeper told him he had beenthere for thepast 30 years and that was too many bees for that are that they would rob andcause big problems. Only after the beekeeper who moved in on top of him got hateful did he tell him to move them or else. He just didnt care. Beliee me this wont work....and recording the call...I told the sheriff exactly what I said..I dont lie so he would have wasted his money on a recorder! I believe you ae looking at it from a few hives which wouldnt bea problem.....when you get commercial with thousands of hives it does be come a issue evenin bee health. A mile or two down the road is NOT a problem....across the fence is or stealing yards is.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Findley...forgot part of your post...your right almost about all of it. I expecially agree with you last paragraph. But some beeks will move in hoping to make YOU move out. If you dotn alot of this type may also have foulbrood, ect. Then you gota bigger problem. Now all this said...99% of beekeepers will not be a horses patoot. Most are great to work with..but there is always a a rotten egg ina basket somewhere.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

Rick,
Im coming that way in October for Pepper. My yards have people living near them that shoot people that go near them. I think thats the best kind of yaards to have. Here at home I had a land owner track me down with a 4 wheeler and an AK 47 to see if I was stealing my own honey. lol. To the point, we should get together this winter. Ill be down in africanized land around ocochobee. I do have good yards down there, I do need to find out about the commbeek neighbors tho. Do you have enough contacts down there that I could beat the telephone bushes and stay outta everyone's hair? ...and keep from having a firefight in the swamp. lol... PM me.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

I dont have any good contacts that far south for yards....I know couple of beeks in that area I can give you. I try not to go that far south due to ahb. I may take some bees down in Sept to divide and will be looking for pepper yards myself...if it is good pepper location it can support 100 plus every mile or so.


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

If you get threats to your bees, you need to go to chasingame.com, and check out the threads on game camera's and camouflaging them. Mine are infrared, and smaller than the palm of my hand. Totally digital, and take night shots to a little over 50 feet AND NO FLASH. haha. Actually, I would think if someone got their hives destroyed, when moving to a new area, they would automatically look to the closest hives, and return the favor. 

If a man has 25 hives on 25 acres, does that give him the right to expect no one to put any bees on the adjoining 900 acres? (hypothetical case). The point I am making is that the beekeeper does not have the rights to all the pollen and nectar in the area. With that said, beekeepers need to be considerate of each other, and not saturate an area with bees.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Step foot on my property for any reason...and you will get caught. The kids that tried burning my tractor, well, i let them go becuase they didn't do any damage to it. I did however, put up game cams and guess what....caught them again. 6 outta 7 are in Juvy at the moment...got them on the same cam as chick is talking about. I tried to be the nice guy, but they decided to be stupid.....and it was insulting to think that they would mess with my bees....


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

I know of a guy that used to claim a couple of hundred square miles as his territory. He threatened several beeks that if he finds their bees in his 'territory' he'd kill the bees. 

A year later a mysterious fire destroyed his house and shop. Seems he was under insured cause it bankrupted him. He doesn't need a 'territory' anymore.

The moral of the story is, 'live by the sword, die by the sword'. opcorn:


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## deanw (Mar 11, 2010)

I got up one morning in ND and found 204 beehives within reach (3 ft.) of mine the owner a large now broke out of state beekeeper said he had purchased that bee yard, news to the property owner who invited me, the property owner wanted the sheriff right away.
Here in ND one beekeeper leaves and sells his sites to someone else often the property owner knows nothing of the deal, the new guy bought clear blue sky and with out the permission of the property owner has no right to be there.
It is private property people we are there at the wishes of the owners.
This maybe my first post but it bothers me people forget who owns the property.


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## merdoc (May 4, 2010)

I was given permission to place my 3 hives behind a radio station by the manager and gave him a quart of honey.The next day got a call they were on fire this was not a honey yard just close by home 1 mile.turned out wasent his land for now on i check land records at quarthouse first.Some people mean well but can get you in trouble.


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## beebiker (May 5, 2009)

deanw said:


> I got up one morning in ND and found 204 beehives within reach (3 ft.) of mine the owner a large now broke out of state beekeeper said he had purchased that bee yard, news to the property owner who invited me, the property owner wanted the sheriff right away.
> Here in ND one beekeeper leaves and sells his sites to someone else often the property owner knows nothing of the deal, the new guy bought clear blue sky and with out the permission of the property owner has no right to be there.
> It is private property people we are there at the wishes of the owners.
> This maybe my first post but it bothers me people forget who owns the property.


i am not really in on the " commercial" end of the buisness here in wyoming, but it is pretty much common sense and common knowledge that if you are on a ranchers property you had better have permission, or face the consiquences :no: most have little sense of humor about this and rustling or shooting livestock is still a hanging offence.
althou this is a wide open country here most areas are open range with little or no bee forage, so most areas with water are developed for either raising crops or hay, hence most of the state is sort of bee free except the river bottoms. our state law says you cannot place a bee yard within 2 miles of someone else's, and common sense would just dictate the same. after all, with only limited resources avalible you know the other fella is scratching for a living just as you are. would you want him to move in on you ?? no....then why move in on him ??

beebiker


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## basser59 (Nov 2, 2009)

Here you are suppose to register each bee yard with the state. No one can register another yard with in 3 miles unless they own the land.


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## rocky1 (Jul 19, 2009)

Personally I think you've all lost sight of the initial post and thus this thread is running way off topic! 

As for Ruben Josey... I would say he will be pollinating crops at the North Florida Correctional Institute farm for a long long time, but he's not that good a beekeeper! My guess is he couldn't keep his bees alive, so he's continuously stolen bees from several North Florida Beekeepers for many years, to make a little quick cash. 

At present he is facing multiple counts of theft of bees, beekeeping equipment, honey, and a variety of other things, over at least 4 counties in North Florida, and 2 counties in South Georgia. Some of those thefts go back SEVERAL YEARS, some were as recent as a few days prior to his arrest. Many of those thefts did have police reports filed, he will face separate charges on each count that can be proven. 

On top of the theft of property charges previously mentioned he is also being charged with multiple counts of possession of stolen property, and trafficking in stolen property. As well as facing charges for altering the brands. 

On top of extracting and bottling in unlicensed and unsanitary facilities, samples were taken to determine if he was adulterating honey with food grade corn syrup. If that proves the case he will face charges there as well. 

According to the Palatka article it would appear he's still sitting in the Putnam County Jail, and if what I'm reading in that article is correct, should he make bail, which I doubt since everything he owns has been or will be seized by the state of Florida, he will simply be charged in one of the other counties and simply extradited to that county before his release. 

The bees and equipment have been being released to their rightful owners as the equipment is identified. Unfortunately all of the bees will never be recovered. And, yes... I can state that with certainty. At this point the investigators are trying to catch up on all of the paperwork surrounding all of the charges Josey faces to date, and trying to find all of his locations so that they may help recover as much property as possible.

Suttonbeeman, if you haven't been contacted by the Putnam County Sheriff's Department, you may want to contact Detective Timpe, as there was a substantial amount of beekeeping equipment, some branded/some not, that was recovered at Josey's home but not identified. 

Should any of you here be acquainted with Ruben Josey, and may have purchased any bees or more specifically branded equipment from him, please contact Detective Timpe at the Putnam County Sheriff's Office. 

And, for those of you that think you are gonna protect your bees with a gun, pull your head out folks... I can drop 'em all from a mile away if I want to. Won't leave a bit of evidence to track it back to me either. 

Respect your fellow beekeepers, and you won't have a problem. Communications is key here folks, simply talk to the other bee man before putting your hives there, try and reach an agreement, if it's your property tell him so, if it ain't tell the property owner the other bee keeper was there first and you don't the hassle. If you do elect to sit on top of someone else's locations, expect to have problems, accept your losses, and don't put them back.


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

basser59 said:


> Here you are suppose to register each bee yard with the state. No one can register another yard with in 3 miles unless they own the land.


Makes sense. In Texas, we don't have these types of rules, that I am aware of.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

rocky1 thanks for the post, you hit the nail on the head! I donthtnkhe got anything of mine...but I'll call tomorrow..he just got 4 beeyards last year to put his stolen hives on.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Here in FL we are not required to register locations, so we operate on the "first come, first serve" basis. Its common practice to locate other beeyards here in FL before placing your hives. Just like Rick said during Orange blossom i'm sure there is 5000 hives (other beeks) scattered around within a mile and 1/2 of one of my best yards. Not that big a deal during the orange bloom plenty to share, but the rest of the year food is scarce and partnerships, ethics, and courtesy certainly should need to be considered. I stay in touch with the other commercial guys working my area, have built good relationships, and I dont step on any toes cause I'm the small/new guy in town. More is comin down the pike for Mr. Josey thats for sure, glad they caught him, and I hope the court system follows through. Rick good to talk to you earlier this week give me a call when your headed south.

steve


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## rocky1 (Jul 19, 2009)

suttonbeeman said:


> rocky1 thanks for the post, you hit the nail on the head! I donthtnkhe got anything of mine...but I'll call tomorrow..he just got 4 beeyards last year to put his stolen hives on.



They're finding that many of the folks missing things aren't necessarily aware they were missing them. 

Our nuc box pile has been dwindling for some time now. Lost 40 this spring, lost 30 last year 125 miles from Josey's house. Lost a few along and along that we've noticed over here 125 miles away also. We've filed numerous police reports, investigators have checked numerous leads... We recovered 100+ nuc boxes in his yard, and have been told by the investigators that there are more in his beeyards. We would have never believed that he would have taken all of that from us. 

The bees found over there on the locations you lost to him... about 99% of those were stolen as well. That gentleman had no clue he had that many hives missing, and he hauled a truckload of equipment home from Josey's house as well. 

The beekeeper missing the comb honey, said "I thought that one yard out along the highway looked a little short when I went by it the other day, but I got 28 yards, I can't keep an inventory on every super...." 

Unfortunately, that is very true of all of us, especially in operations where you have multiple crews working yards and picking things up. Ruben was taking things in such a manner that it was difficult to catch him at it except in a few blatant cases. It is very possible that he snuck off with a few hives, a few nucs, or a few supers, and they're piled up in the impound, or possibly still in the beeyards. There were 4 different beekeeers there that day and there are a dozen or so branded nuc boxes none of us recognized, quite a few branded supers scattered around that we didn't recognize either, and quite a bit of unbranded stuff. 

In the event you can't make it down there to look at it, IF your equipment is uniform, send them a picture of it. If it's branded, send them a picture of the brand. If you have numerous brands in your operation, as most commercial beekeepers do, send them a list of the more common brands. If they have that information, the beekeepers going through the bees with them can look for it. Pictures of our nuc boxes helped hang Ruben.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

You do realize that just because you can poison bees and steal yeards, you cant physically steal bees from at least 3 of my yards without a gun of your own. And one of them is on a ranch... dont you know how insanne cowboys are? Theyre walking NRA posters. I digress. Yes you can poison. No you cannot steal them. And in the end I might still beecourse whoever did it and burn their's next season.


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## AllFloridaBee (Sep 25, 2007)

wow, who needs mafia wars when you have beekeeping!


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

I've heard of a FL migratory beekeeper(name is withheld) that keeps drums of AFB frames for others that move in on him. He will pull his bees and scatter AFB frames around to make a major inconvenience for the inconsiderate beekeeper that moved in on him.


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## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

basser59 said:


> Here [Arkansas] you are suppose to register each bee yard with the state. No one can register another yard with in 3 miles unless they own the land.


A person can register a yard within 3 miles if certain requirements are met and that the board approves it.

"B. No person can place bees on property other than his own within three miles of a previously registered area without the written permission of the registrant; PROVIDED, however, that upon written complaint made to the Board by any beekeeper or any land owner whose land is in the
registered area, that the registrant or any other person claiming prior bee pasturage rights is not properly covering the area so registered, then the Apiary Board shall be authorized to permit the placing in such area other bees or bee yards as in its judgment shall be sufficient."


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## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

suttonbeeman said:


> Well well well what goes around comes around. The guy who went behind my back and "stole" four of my beeyards by paying $1,000 cash (yes thats right) was arrested for stealing bees, bee equipment, honey, and much more and is in the Putnam Co jail under 50,000 bond. He was also selling honey without a approved facility, and many more things yet to be seen. Wonder how all this will come out....to read the article go to
> www.palatkadailynews.com or google Ruben Josey.


I am happy he was caught and it is sad that people can be like that.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_If you moved your hives onto your property and you OWNED it not alot would be said...

THose spots are VERy difficult to find and you defend them at all cost. Bees are everywhere in Fl...and if your smart you dont go behind someones back. I believe YOU SHOULD NEVER stab someone in the back....but I will defend whats mine! _

You can only defend what you have a legal right to. When you have hives on someone else's land, you are there by privilege, and not by right. The landowner has the RIGHT to invite whomever they want to have a beeyard there. If you do not have a legal right to something, your actions are acts of aggression, and not defense.

Unless you own the land those yards were on, you have no complaint. The yards were really worth $1,000. Be thankful you got away being a cheapskate all these years, instead of paying the $1000 real market value.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Countryboy
Are you sure you read the above post correctly? I believe you must have misread or dont understand. THE GUY WAS USING STOLEN money(stolen bees and honey money) to pay. So if you use stolen money dont you think it might be a little differant than if it was earned by the sweat of your work? I take offense to calling me a cheapskate, I know of NO BEEKEEPER that pays that kinda price! I think you better be glad you live in OHio not Florida! I dont think you people (Findley included) in Ohio understand ethics...just because its not illegal doesnt mean its the right thing to do! Lets say you had a really good pet dog that got away and got in the road... the car speeds up and kills your dog...it wasnt illegal...but should have he tried to avoid it? You can take 80% of beekeepers in Florida and I DARE you to move in and take their yards and see what happens or for that matter many other places...YOU WOULD HAVE A RUDE awakening...legal or not I WILL DEFEND MY LIVING at ALL COST PERIOD!~ Alligators love to have desert!! Sherry you want to chime in here on beekeeper ethics???


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

country boy...just recieved a private message with lots of info...last comment was only a crook can afford to pay that kinda money.....
just read your profile....I dont think most hobbist lkike you have any clue to how commercial beekeeping works and how you have to work togather for everyones benefit. There is a huge differance to moving in a few hives. But if you ever decide to make your living( a big defferance on outlook adn how you operate)I hope you use more common sense than to take a beekeepres yard unless you want your hives poisned, burned or you become alligator desert.,. There are many other beekeepers besides me that would be highly irate legal or not at your ethics.


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## rocky1 (Jul 19, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> You can only defend what you have a legal right to. When you have hives on someone else's land, you are there by privilege, and not by right. The landowner has the RIGHT to invite whomever they want to have a beeyard there. If you do not have a legal right to something, your actions are acts of aggression, and not defense.
> 
> Unless you own the land those yards were on, you have no complaint. The yards were really worth $1,000. Be thankful you got away being a cheapskate all these years, instead of paying the $1000 real market value.


I'm not sure how much you pay for all the yards in your commercial operation, but I haven't seen any yards anywhere that we keep bees that command a $250 price tag each, as you suggest. 

In North Dakota where we have 110 locations, we pay about $100 per location, landowner has his/her choice of honey, sue bee bar-b-que sauce, or a check. Neighboring beekeepers are all at the same rate. 

In the woods of North Florida we pay 17 cents an acre on the 20,000 acres we lease from the timber companies, locations under private treaty we offer them their choice of of check or honey, and pay about what suttonbeeman suggested above. 

The land in question, based upon current timber company rates, would have a market value of around $300, if it were a honey producing location. However, to the best of my knowledge suttonbeeman is in that particular area of North Florida for the same reason I am, fall and winter build. Wherein, we do not make a crop of honey, we are there solely for pollen flow to maintain and build our bees. And, in that area we pay the same rate he does for locations. All 25 of them we have in that area. 

May I ask just exactly how many locations you have in that area? Since you seem to be an expert on real market value of beeyards in that area.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

rocky...he is a 15 hive hobbist without a clue to reality of commercial beekeeping. I gave the landowner evenmore than you suggested... 5 cases of honey...24 lbs case and 4 4x4 boxes cut comb!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

suttonbeeman said:


> While all of you have good points...how many of you are commercial beekeepers and make your living at bees?


Matters not what one's status is with their bees. Being unethical and illegal are two different things. The man is well within his legal right to put bees on his property. Looks like you will have to find find some new places.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Barry

I agree..in this case he is in jail....so he wont be using them for along time! And if you buy a farm it is understandable that you may but whatever is legal there. But the line is drawn IF you see bees...go to the property owner and try to get anothers yards. Most landowners would run you off, then there are the drunk ones or greedy ones who will sell their soul for $$. It is my opinion and most commercial beekeepers opinion and they way we operate that you DO NOT move in on top of another or try to get his yards...if you do, do so at your risk. It may be legal, but may not be the smartest thing you have ever done...in fact may be the stupidest thing you have done with bad results!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

suttonbeeman said:


> It may be legal, but may not be the smartest thing you have ever done...in fact may be the stupidest thing you have done with bad results!


Then I guess you're willing to view the world through bars as a result of your actions. To live by your convictions can be costly. Do they get high speed internet connection in those rooms?


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## bobber128 (Jun 6, 2010)

Huh.... I'm hearing a lot of talk about ethical v legal. As an LEO, I can tell you that many of the things that have been said here (by both sides) are both unethical AND illegal. Someone moves in near your bees=unethical. destroying their bees= illegal, threatening their lives (the comments about **************)= illegal, burning ANY property not legally owned by you=arson=felony illegal.

I understand the need to defend your yards, even though I don't work in the business. But the only other business I've heard of that "defend their turf" in this way is criminal enterprises (gangs, pot farms, drug manufacturing operations). Not sure I'd want to be a part of a business that operates the same way as bona fide criminals. just my two cents.


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## bobber128 (Jun 6, 2010)

That being said, I'm glad the thief was caught, and I hope he gets a warm reception in the big house....


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

As Peacekeeper stated, Florida does not require registration of bee yards. They should, for the simple reason that some of the commercial operators seem not to care whose toes they step on. We have seen a huge increase in bees being brought to Florida, and some of the operators could care less about where they locate their bees. In some instances these operators look for areas to unload and leave without ever gathering the property owners permission. 
Last year a commercial operator placed about 200 hives or so within a half mile of my yard, which was located on my property which I paid dearly for and pay yearly taxes on. When I approached him he came up with some lame excuse that he had permission from the landowner, which he did not. As it turned out he had permission from the cattle owner, not the land owner. The bees were not moved, and the end result was that we both our bees suffered.
Now about taking things into your own hands, that would not be the smart thing to do. Ask those Dakota guys what happens when you duct tape another beekeeper to a tree in retaliation for lack of ethics. Those ole boys were sent to our good ole state prison, and I think they may still be there.


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## be lote (Mar 26, 2008)

suttonbeeman them yards you rentin. your bees stayin on that property or they foragein on another mans land for free


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

bobber128 said:


> I understand the need to defend your yards, even though I don't work in the business. But the only other business I've heard of that "defend their turf" in this way is criminal enterprises (gangs, pot farms, drug manufacturing operations). Not sure I'd want to be a part of a business that operates the same way as bona fide criminals. just my two cents.


Well said bobber128. I don't know about Florida but most of the commercial beekeepers I know and work with are some of the nicest and honest people you would like to know. The reason I didn't post to this thread before is because as it turned to "vendetta" talk I wanted no part of it. I am glad they caught the thief who was stealing equipment from beeks and now he will get what he deserved THROUGH the justice system. The problem with settling scores yourselves is what leads to "feuds" that can carry on for generations or like what is happening in Mexico right now with over 22K people murdered (in just the last 3 yrs) over "perceived" or real slights by one group or the other. Be careful the road you chose and be ready to play by the rules (or lack thereof) once you do. Remember bees and honey are a "business" so if you are having problems with someone cutting into your area there are "civil" ways to deal with it. Talk to farm and ranch owners and commercial beeks need to do a better job of policing themselves if the state has no regulations. 

Anyway...I hate thief's so I am glad they caught him. For those of you with other issues I hope you can work them out. I hate to see a guy pushed out of an area or intruded on. There is enough land for all the beeks...it is just going to require a little coordination so all can maximize it. Good luck all.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Sutton....handle your beesiness. I would be upset as well.....i won't condone it or say i would not do anything you have meantioned here and some of the others.....but, very careful thought would be given b4 bubba becomes my new girl friend or vice-versa.


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

broodhead said:


> As Peacekeeper stated, Florida does not require registration of bee yards. They should, for the simple reason that some of the commercial operators seem not to care whose toes they step on. We have seen a huge increase in bees being brought to Florida, and some of the operators could care less about where they locate their bees. In some instances these operators look for areas to unload and leave without ever gathering the property owners permission.
> Last year a commercial operator placed about 200 hives or so within a half mile of my yard, which was located on my property which I paid dearly for and pay yearly taxes on. When I approached him he came up with some lame excuse that he had permission from the landowner, which he did not. As it turned out he had permission from the cattle owner, not the land owner. The bees were not moved, and the end result was that we both our bees suffered.
> Now about taking things into your own hands, that would not be the smart thing to do. Ask those Dakota guys what happens when you duct tape another beekeeper to a tree in retaliation for lack of ethics. Those ole boys were sent to our good ole state prison, and I think they may still be there.


First of all NO commercial beekeeper in Florida wants there yards registered and no commercial beekeeper in Fl would register there sites. Its not the states business where I put my bees and Im not going to deal with the state when I place them . 
I pretty much only deal with cattle people they have the lease for the land and the owner gets a very big tax break. As far as both your bees suffering thats ridiculous ,strong hives always make honey. There must be a thousand hives within a mile of my pepper yards and I still make about 100lb average. Not to mention the 100's of hives in the produce farms in the same area.
If you are talking about the incident involving Mr Fussell , don't forget to mention that the rumor was he was poisoning bee yards. At least thats what I heard. Actually the man that went to prison is out as of last year I ran into him in an Orange grove last year ,witch was kinda creepy .


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Ok Guys I think alot of you are missing my point....I beileve Barry is a hobbist and doesnt understand commercial aspect of bees. We have to work togather but you cant let someone walk all over you. I agree with what Broodhead and ALpha said 100%. Trevor is also correct in his comments...on pepper or orange there is plenty for everyone! What I was trying to say is we all have to get along and work togather and NOT go behind someones back and try to get his locations or set 200 colonies across the fence when building bees in winter when there is not alot of nectar and over populating a area. It is common courtsey to work with you fellow beekeepers. No my bees do fly across he fence to a neighbors property...but again you dont understand that there can be too many bees in a area during dec, jan feb is some locations. It hurts everyone. During orange or pepper there is plenty for everyone. You just have to treat your fellow beekeeper LIKE YOU wuld want to be treated. THere is NO EXCUSE for someone going behind someones back and taking their locations.....no I dont own them but like I stated above I try to do what is ethical and I WONT EVER go behind someones backandoffer more> The guy you refeerred to in the Fussell case was the guys yards I used when I first went to Florida on orange. When he got out of prison I gave those yards back to him,, THEY WERE HIS and not mine...I went out and found my own yards. From what I was told Fussell was killing, burning and destroying everyones bees anywhere around...Which is NOT right. I have never condoned this. THe guy who just got outof prisonlast year caught him destroying his bees with his pickup stuck on top of his hives and beat the crap out of him in a grove. He should not have ever gone to prison. I know him well and he is not creepy...really nice guy who got tired of his bees being destroyed. What I'm talking about is putting bees right on top of someone(across fence in rock throwing distance in large numbers not 5 or 10 OR going behind someones back. I called the guy who tookmy yards and was nice to him and asked why he went behind my back...only when he laughted and said he would do whatever he wanted did I change my responce. I think you need to call, communicate and work togather and help each other. I helped a beekeeper load two loads of bees for CA last year and took no pay....I may need help someday. I help anyone I can BUt I dont kindly to someone walking all over me. I really take offense to the post above where I was referred to as a cheapskate....when the thief was using stolen money, I cant repeat here what I think of someone who would look at that situation and make that type of comment. The problem in the world today is some people do not respect their neighbors....just greedy and I'll take what I want. All that said, I dont condone feeding soemone to alligators...my point was it can and does happen...try to get along and care about your fellow beekeeper and work togather. When I look for beeyards I FIRST TRY TO FIND OUT IF ANYONE IS CLOSE BY...IF THEY ARE I LOOK ON DOWN THE ROAD ITS COMMON COURTESY! But if you come and "steal" my beeyards using stolen money or just dont care well I got another side and alot of us do! It is a differant color. If you ddont understand this I dotn think you care about you fellow man....try to leave this place better thanyou found it and not walk all aller people enough said.....sherry> wahts your opinion?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Not that I have ever taken the law into my own hands,  but I hope everyone here relizes that even joking about felonious intent on the internet is not a good idea. You words live on forever in cyberspace and cameras are everywhere.


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## be lote (Mar 26, 2008)

suttonbeeman im a family farmer you tellin me i cant rent my land to 
cover some of the taxs on it cause you rented a farm across the 
hedge row cause they rentin theres to help cover the taxs .


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Be lote
No I'm not, its yours you can do what you want. Geez you guys are either dont care about anything but the $$ or are completely dense. If there is enough bee forage ok...if it is limited to say enough to support 50 hives and beekeeper x has 50 hives across the hedge row why would any beekeeper Z want to put bees there? And I don think you are going to get many $$ renting your farm for bees. Going rate is about a gallon of honey per yard. I have many prople ASKING me to put bees on their property. Its that if property x will support 50 hives no beekeeper should move right across the hedge row...go down the road a couple of miles. A few yrs ago I put in a yard and I didnt know another beekeeper had a yard across the road, when I saw him go in I went over and told him I was sorry I didnt know bees were there. I told him I would move mine if he thought it was going to be a problem, it was a good honey area and he had no problem....still the next year I went down the road 11/2 miles and put mine there. Sure makes it easy to have good neighbors! Also most of my location owners would NEVER let you put bees there...but sometimes lots of $$ looks good most of the time too good as the gut was a thief....even stole from property owner from what I've been told! Read ALL the above post and think about it Be lote....get your thinker working!!


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Nabber 86
Your right....but if I did it I wouldnt lie about it either! I told sheriff that yes I did tell him that I would kick his you know what (butt) if he stole from me again...(he also stole honey from me) and I meant it. I told It wasnt a threat but a promise! I dont go around threating people....I just hate thiefs and there are alot more like me! My whole point is you cant just go by what is legal, you need to do the right thing and it appears some people just dont understand right from wrong. And for the few you ( and most are hobbist and I"M NOT throwing off on hobbist as I started with two hives) who think you can do whatever and move right on top of someone beause it isnt illegal...(again I'm not talking 1 or 2 or 10 hives but 50 or 200) when you bees are dead and you cant prove what happened and you want to know whos fault it is go look in a mirrow. I try to work with my neighbors(I also farm and own land and get along) and try be a good neighbor.....I really am gald I dont have some of you for a neighbor and hope you stay hobbist or away from my area! Guess thats rude but I cant imagine what life would be like living next to you!


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## habutti (Apr 20, 2008)

So back on track, what is the latest on the crook, has he made bail yet?


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Doubt if he will ever got out for many years. Thanks for getting us back on track! Guess I've been a little defensive but I beleive alot of people on here comment without putting their thinker in gear, especially the guy who called me a cheapskate! Anyway he is still in jail under 50,001 dollar bond for charges in ONE county, he will face charges in at least three other counties in Fl and then Georiga. I doubt he will ever get out soon. From what I understand THey have impounded all his vehicles, including wifes van, bobcat, trailer movable buildings and may seize his real estate property. He had stolen honey for a big packer, stolen bee equipment reported stolen as long as 4 yrs ago, stolen hives possably putting corn syrup in his honey, (waiting on test), stolen jars, smokers, sold stolen nucs to beginging beeks this year and on and on. He bascially was running a rackerteering thieft business which is what the law is claiming it seems.....what ever you buy with stolen money they can take and he stole almost everything he sold! He may get life ....


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

suttonbeeman said:


> Nabber 86
> Your right....but if I did it I wouldnt lie about it either! I told sheriff that yes I did tell him that I would kick his you know what (butt) if he stole from me again...(he also stole honey from me) and I meant it. I told It wasnt a threat but a promise! I dont go around threating people....I just hate thiefs and there are alot more like me! My whole point is you cant just go by what is legal, you need to do the right thing and it appears some people just dont understand right from wrong. And for the few you ( and most are hobbist and I"M NOT throwing off on hobbist as I started with two hives) who think you can do whatever and move right on top of someone beause it isnt illegal...(again I'm not talking 1 or 2 or 10 hives but 50 or 200) when you bees are dead and you cant prove what happened and you want to know whos fault it is go look in a mirrow. I try to work with my neighbors(I also farm and own land and get along) and try be a good neighbor.....I really am gald I dont have some of you for a neighbor and hope you stay hobbist or away from my area! Guess thats rude but I cant imagine what life would be like living next to you!


{Thinker Engage}

Great so if you ever do kick his butt, the sherrif will be on the witness stand repeating the words you told him when you are tried for aggrevated assault. Oh and dont forget the civil trial where the guy is awarded your land, farm, beekeeping supplies, etc. 

Just be careful what you say, or at least know how to hide the body when you are done.

{Thinker Disengage}


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## basser59 (Nov 2, 2009)

After reading all of these post there is something I do not understand! This is a People problem, with every thing that the bees have to go through to survive, why would you want to kill or burn out the bees?


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

I am going to have to agree with basser as he read my mind.....but in the interest of the discussion at hand, lets change the circumstances for the NON commercial guys.....

You are at work, and you finally get that promotion and you are blowing your new job out of the water....i mean doing a great job....then here comes a guy that you paid to help you once upon a time and he goes behind YOUR back and goes to YOUR boss and says, I can do it better for cheaper.....and welp, you have already seen the guy fail...So he gets your job and you are PO'd....but hey, its the corporate world right....then all of a sudden you find out his degree is fake, and his performance blows and he stole your cellphone a while back......what do you do?


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

I'm curious, which criminal gets the longer sentence: the thief that steals hives his neighbor's hives or the arsonist that burns his neighbor's hives?

Just wondering.

Wayne


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

You look for a new job. :doh: This happens every single day in corporate America, with suppliers (who don't deliver the goods or deliver sub-standard products) and in just about every industry. You get a new job or your old one back, you get a new supplier, you change...you don't go in a kill everyone because things didn't go your way. I don't think this is what sutton is saying. I think he is saying that as, in the case of Florida there are now commercial beeks stepping over each other they need to organize in order for ALL of them to maximize the potential that is out there with commercial beekeeping.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

BINGO alpha..you hit the nail on the head! YOu win!!! Your summary was great..should have thought of that myself! But back to corporate america....that doesnt make it right and thats one reason why we had the economic meltdown...corporate greed! devdog is also right. bet some of your attitudes would change quickly if that happened to you! lol 
nabber6...Sheriff wouldnt have to testfiy....I would tell same story myself. THas is whats wrong today....you catch a thief...hurt him or beat him up he wants to sue....HE IS the PROBLEM NOT ME or you. I dont think I even want to go there...if a judge gave what I own to a thief because I was protecting what I have sweated for...well like I said I wont go there other than to say it would be VERY UGLY!, We all have to get along, BUT some of you dont understand there is a line that if you cross it you do so at your own risk. THere are lots of people who are even more so opinionated and protective than myself. If people would just treat everyone like you want to be treated none of these things happen. Talk it out and work it out. But unfortunately there are alot of people who could care less what loss their actions force on others. I just have no tolerance for thieves or crooks. I can tolerate about anything else.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

suttonbeeman said:


> comment without putting their thinker in gear


My thinking exactly


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

suttonbeeman said:


> ! But back to corporate america....that doesnt make it right and thats one reason why we had the economic meltdown...corporate greed! .


This was my point...and nope, I'd never go postal....noone is worth that to me.....


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## StewRoten (May 22, 2010)

My experience is that beekeepers and business men do best when they act as gentlemen. Burning the hives of the competition and making other such threats is not a gentlemanly act. Those who do so are simply in the wrong -- whatever they may be responding to.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

suttonbeeman said:


> I beileve Barry is a hobbist and doesnt understand commercial aspect of bees. We have to work togather but you cant let someone walk all over you.


You're right on the first part, but wrong on the second. I'm a businessman myself, just not in the area of beekeeping. You're not unique. Most of us face competition in our work arena. Not everyone "plays fair." Oh well, life is unfair and we better be able to roll with the unfairness or you'll end up either doing something stupid and just as wrong/unfair as the other guy, or it will eat you up inside and you'll be a bitter person.


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

Trevor Mansell said:


> First of all NO commercial beekeeper in Florida wants there yards registered and no commercial beekeeper in Fl would register there sites. Its not the states business where I put my bees and Im not going to deal with the state when I place them .
> I pretty much only deal with cattle people they have the lease for the land and the owner gets a very big tax break. As far as both your bees suffering thats ridiculous ,strong hives always make honey. There must be a thousand hives within a mile of my pepper yards and I still make about 100lb average. Not to mention the 100's of hives in the produce farms in the same area.
> If you are talking about the incident involving Mr Fussell , don't forget to mention that the rumor was he was poisoning bee yards. At least thats what I heard. Actually the man that went to prison is out as of last year I ran into him in an Orange grove last year ,witch was kinda creepy .


Trevor, Florida should regulate more strictly to protect resident beekeepers. I will go as far as to say that Florida should tax each box of bees that come accross the state line from non resident commercial beekeepers. Why not, they take our resources out of the state, sell for profits, and do you think that that money comes back to Florida. 
I own land, I also have leased land to cattle producers and yes I do get a tax break, but I also had to purchase the land, at one time planted grove on it, then when the grove was no longer profitable the land was classified as non producing and guess what, here comes a big ole tax increase. So, then you must fence in the land, and the cattle boys don't even want to pay the taxes on the property when they use the land. In reality it is not such a good deal, and the cattle contracts that I have used state that the land is for cattle use only. The cattle farmer has no contract for any other use, they cannot even hunt on the property. They have no authority to give anyone permission for use of the property for any other purpose.
The land where the bees were place by the commercial operator had no growth that would support those hives that the commercial operator left next to mine. They simply foraged on my brazilian pepper on land that I paid for on land that I pay the taxes on. How did the commercial make out in the long run? Well, if he did as good as you he made 100 lbs per hive . Seems to me that the land owner got the raw end of the deal. 
This year I will be looking out for his red trucks, maybe he will have the name Robin Hood Apiaries painted on the door, just seems appropriate.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_THE GUY WAS USING STOLEN money(stolen bees and honey money) to pay. _

I still can't find where the guy robbed a bank or stole cash from anyone. That's what stolen money is.

_I take offense to calling me a cheapskate, I know of NO BEEKEEPER that pays that kinda price!_

Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. It is my understanding that you are an auctioneer in your day job, so you should understand that as good as anyone. I've been to many auctions where someone paid a price many times above what I thought a reasonable price.

_I dont think you people (Findley included) in Ohio understand ethics..._

If you want to talk about ethics, why don't we talk about a guy who buys several barrels of honey from another beekeeper. The buyer's truck crew handles the barrels very rough, and even knocks a few over. The seller tells the buyer to check the barrels real good before he takes the crystalized honey out of the barrels because of how rough they were loaded by the truck crew.

6 months later, the buyer doesn't check the barrels, and ends up with honey all over his floor from holes in the barrel from the dolly forks. The buyer then wants the seller to replace the barrel of honey.

Hmm. The shipping insurance would pay for the damage, and yet the buyer is trying to double dip and asking the seller to give him another barrel of honey for free. How ethical is that?

_You can take 80% of beekeepers in Florida and I DARE you to move in and take their yards and see what happens or for that matter many other places...YOU WOULD HAVE A RUDE awakening...legal or not I WILL DEFEND MY LIVING at ALL COST PERIOD!~ Alligators love to have desert!!_

So when the landowner tells you he isn't willing to let you keep your bees on his land anymore...are you saying you are going to feed the landowner to the alligators? The landowner does have the right to tell you no, and the landowner does have the right to tell someone else yes. That's life. If you want to be the one making the decision whose bees are allowed on that land, then you need to buy that land.

_country boy...just recieved a private message with lots of info...last comment was only a crook can afford to pay that kinda money....._

I'm of the opinion that if a beekeeping operation couldn't afford to pay $1000 for something, they will be belly up soon. I must hang out with a criminal element, because I know many folks who keep a $1000 cash rainy day fund. (and most have more than $1000 handy)

_It is my opinion and most commercial beekeepers opinion and they way we operate that you DO NOT move in on top of another or try to get his yards...if you do, do so at your risk. It may be legal, but may not be the smartest thing you have ever done...in fact may be the stupidest thing you have done with bad results! _

You do understand the illegality of conspiring with your competitors to protect your business interests, right?

_What I was trying to say is we all have to get along and work togather and NOT go behind someones back and try to get his locations or set 200 colonies across the fence when building bees in winter when there is not alot of nectar and over populating a area. _

What you have just described is known as collusion, which is extremely illegal. I would encourage you to have a long talk with your attorney about competition laws and how they apply to you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_law

_THere is NO EXCUSE for someone going behind someones back and taking their locations....._

They didn't take your locations. They outbid you. That is known as a fair practice in free market capitalism.

_Going rate is about a gallon of honey per yard._

That's substantially less than going rate for an average location here. Here, you should expect to pay at least one pound of honey per hive per year - or more if it is a good location.

_He bascially was running a rackerteering thieft business which is what the law is claiming it seems....._

I can't find where he was charged under the RICO Act, and if the law was claiming he was racketeering, he would be charged for racketeering.

_I'm a businessman myself, just not in the area of beekeeping. You're not unique. Most of us face competition in our work arena. Not everyone "plays fair." Oh well, life is unfair and we better be able to roll with the unfairness or you'll end up either doing something stupid and just as wrong/unfair as the other guy, or it will eat you up inside and you'll be a bitter person. _

That's well put, Barry. Often for both parties, people want things tilted in their favor and special rights, rather than a true equal playing field.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Barry yes unfortuanately your exactly right. I just try to do right thing and treat people like I want to be treated. Unfortunately not everyone feels that way.


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

broodhead said:


> Trevor, Florida should regulate more strictly to protect resident beekeepers. I will go as far as to say that Florida should tax each box of bees that come accross the state line from non resident commercial beekeepers. Why not, they take our resources out of the state, sell for profits, and do you think that that money comes back to Florida.
> I own land, I also have leased land to cattle producers and yes I do get a tax break, but I also had to purchase the land, at one time planted grove on it, then when the grove was no longer profitable the land was classified as non producing and guess what, here comes a big ole tax increase. So, then you must fence in the land, and the cattle boys don't even want to pay the taxes on the property when they use the land. In reality it is not such a good deal, and the cattle contracts that I have used state that the land is for cattle use only. The cattle farmer has no contract for any other use, they cannot even hunt on the property. They have no authority to give anyone permission for use of the property for any other purpose.
> The land where the bees were place by the commercial operator had no growth that would support those hives that the commercial operator left next to mine. They simply foraged on my brazilian pepper on land that I paid for on land that I pay the taxes on. How did the commercial make out in the long run? Well, if he did as good as you he made 100 lbs per hive . Seems to me that the land owner got the raw end of the deal.
> This year I will be looking out for his red trucks, maybe he will have the name Robin Hood Apiaries painted on the door, just seems appropriate.


 I live in Fl and go out of state for the summer so I can speak from experience when I say that I pump allot of money into the local economy up here in Wi . I know some out of state beekeepers that come to Fl for the orange and pepper flows ,I also know that they pump money into the local Fl economy,lodging ,food ,fuel tax ,etc. Also allot of migratory beekeepers have a Fl residence or at least a honey house that they are paying property taxes on.
As far as taking Fl resources out of state , you don't seem to understand that most Fl beekeepers send there honey out of state to large packers anyways as there are not many in Fl. if any. So I don't really see what the difference is with a local beekeeper and out of state beekeeper making honey in Fl.
I really cant comment on your land contracts other than maybe you should find another cattle man. The ones that I work with put the fence up and pay the taxes for use of the land ,as long as they can have a 20 year contract .


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_I just try to do right thing and treat people like I want to be treated. _

That has no applicability in civil justice though. The positive tense of the Golden Rule concerns Social Welfare. Doing this will help you in a popularity contest.

The negative tense of the Golden Rule concerns civil justice, but many folks are not familiar with the negative tense.

Do not unto others, as you would not have them do unto you.

Think of it this way. While we may want to feed someone to the alligators whose ethics differ from our own ethics, would we want fed to the alligators because our ethics are different from some other people's ethics?


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## deanw (Mar 11, 2010)

a thief is a thief and I hope he gets wheat he deserves,
beekeeping like anything else is a business and you cannot legally monopolize, my day job is a roofer, I cannot put a sign at the city limits and say this is my town,
We deal with unlicensed, uninsured companies, illegal workers, etc. these all can under cut us, 
We have to keep our head up and keep going.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

countryboy your post is totally unbelievable...doyou really believe that...geez I dont know if that even deserves a responce. Lets look at where you just dont get it.. comment number one stolen money....there are two types of money...money you get by working (legal) and money you get by not workingLegal or illegal) the latter is commonly known as easy money. The money Josey was using came from illegal activity (selling stolen merchandise) guess that kinda makes it easy money....but what really takes the cake here is you take up for a known thief who is getting beeyards from other beekeepers using his profits from stolen goods and then claim he is right..about the stupidest thing I ever heard. Oh by the way...beekeeping is my day job...auctioneering is my side job.

comment number two: I was NEVER told until I found the mess on the floor that a barrell was dropped, didnt file a claim as it was six months later, called beekeeper to see what happened, fed honey to bees....now how did I double dip....I paid somewhere around $1 per lb for the honey...kinda expensive bee feed dont you think...worst part was cleaningup themess with no floor drainat the time andit was under everything. As far as I know we never fellout or even had any kinda argument I talked to him a couple of years back and we are on good terms and I talk to his son on occasion. Now please explain how I tried to double dip as I lost a drum of honey other than bee feed salvage value. 

Number three No I'm not going to feed the land owner to the alligators, its his land he can let on whoever he wants.and your right if I want to make the decisions onthe land I should buy it. He pays the taxes. Its not his fault someone is using illegal $ to pay high rent This is exactly why I said you have no ethics..to knowlingly go to a landowner who has a beekeeper on his property and take that lease is unethical....BUt it is easy to see you dont care about ethics! You do this to many beekeepers and one day one will feed you to a alligaor or worse beleive me(and it may not be me) but again you dont have a clue.

No I dont think 1,000 would break me...if it did your right I would be in trouble! It was just too much for comparable rent paid by beekeepers and was nOT a arms length transactionif you can understand that.

No one wa conspiring with competition...it has no effect on what we recieve for out product or for that matter any significant effect on the landowners income(I was paying about 500 dollars wholesale value in honey or about 1.5 lbs/hive...more than you suggested!) a gallon per yard is standard in orange as you are pollinating the trees also.

But really takes the cake here is you claim I was outbid...GET REAL why are you making me out to be the bad guy? HE IS IN JAIL!!!!! so who is the bad guy....I think you have succeeded in making yourself not look too good on here ...almost laughable! Sure he outbid me...If I stole constantly from other beekeepers and I probably wouldnt care what I paid either! duh!!!!

No they havent charged him with racketeering, but have taken possession of all his property and from what i've been told will be taking his real estate also. 
Then in your last comment you state that some people want the playing field tilted in their favor and not a level playing field,, so is stealing everything in site then selling it, then using that money to get another beekeepers yards a level playing field...thats what happened. I'm like you I want a level playing field, BUT I DONT THINK WALKING ALL OVER SOMEONE ELSE IS A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. YOUR COMMENTS ARE BEYOND BELIEF...SURE GLAD I DONT WORK FOR OR LIVE NEAR YOU!!!


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

Does anyone have a cliff notes version of this thread? It's way to long/small letters/ and no pictures.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

your right deanw....I just cant believe the above comments and how some people dontcare about their fellow man.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

ethics....do you really know what they are counrty boy, wasnt sure ....


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## deanw (Mar 11, 2010)

I am just big on private property rights, 
as a sideliner I know most of the commercial guys within a 50 mile radius, and find most of them to be great guys part of what got me into beekeeping beyond 2 hives, 
This being said I have watched this site for years and this finally got me commenting, again about the private property,
good night and best wishes
clover started blooming yesterday


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## rocky1 (Jul 19, 2009)

Back to the original thread, once more...

Channel 25 News - Jacksonville, FL

Channel 47 News - Jacksonville


Could one of the moderators please sort this thread out and split this into the "Stolen Bees" thread and the "Ethics and Morality of Beekeeping Debate thread!


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

Trevor Mansell said:


> I live in Fl and go out of state for the summer so I can speak from experience when I say that I pump allot of money into the local economy up here in Wi . I know some out of state beekeepers that come to Fl for the orange and pepper flows ,I also know that they pump money into the local Fl economy,lodging ,food ,fuel tax ,etc. Also allot of migratory beekeepers have a Fl residence or at least a honey house that they are paying property taxes on.
> As far as taking Fl resources out of state , you don't seem to understand that most Fl beekeepers send there honey out of state to large packers anyways as there are not many in Fl. if any. So I don't really see what the difference is with a local beekeeper and out of state beekeeper making honey in Fl.
> I really cant comment on your land contracts other than maybe you should find another cattle man. The ones that I work with put the fence up and pay the taxes for use of the land ,as long as they can have a 20 year contract .


I am very cognizant of where honey goes, and revenue created by non-resident commercial operators is minimal as compared to the money generated by the resources taken from Florida. Beekeepers are thrifty to say the least, I don't see many of them vacationing here, just passing through long enough to get the resources. Now for the resident commercial operators, we need more of this category beekeeper. Creating and expanding the Florida workforce and economy is paramount to this industry. 
As far as the cattle contracts, cattle farmers are not paying for the fence, in years past some would try that approach, but now they will not! As far as the 20 year lease, that is not the timeframe included in the contracts. About those big tax breaks, they don't exist in the water management areas where the property owner still pays for water usage and upkeep within the district.
That cost is higher than the property tax. In recent years the assesment of the drainage district was approaching 100 dollars per acre. Wonder how far a gallon of honey goes in covering that cost. 
I recently leased a ten acre tract for the purpose of a staging yard for my bees. My contract states that I pay the property tax on that piece of property, and currently it is listed as groveland, but since it is non producing it will be only a matter of time before the tax appraiser changes the tax code for that property. Bees don't get the same tax break as cattle !!! If you find one of those cowboys willing to pay for the fence and property tax send him over, he can get all the land he wants.


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## deanw (Mar 11, 2010)

This should probably be a new thread, two minutes ago my local news showed a story of a shooting and picture of a honey warehouse and a picture of a man named Newton and quick look of ND beekeepers shows two Newtons in Belfield ND where this happened.
Hope this isn't where this wild talk ends up.


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## be lote (Mar 26, 2008)

suttonbeeman i rent land an trade land year to year farmin cause of crop rotation so i no bout rentin land an have been over bid on farms we been tendin for years. some gave me the opertunity to match the price some didnt.
its there land

you said you was across the street from a beek an didnt no it then asked 
him if you should of moved when you did find out. a man of your ethics should of not said a thang an moved out on pure principle..... but you didnt
so save that holyer than thou talk til you walk your talk


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## AllFloridaBee (Sep 25, 2007)

rocky1 said:


> Back to the original thread, once more...
> 
> Channel 25 News - Jacksonville, FL
> 
> Channel 47 News - Jacksonville


Thanks for the links. Seeing such respected beekeepers like George and Mike explain the crimes just hurts to watch. I hope you can put this behind you quickly, and trust that most folks are good.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Broodhead.. In most counties bees do get the same tax break as cattle. I just purchased property in Polk Co Fl...getting it green belted(the ag tax break). It differs from each co to each co but in Polk...you can get it 100 hives per acre (not on that property necessary...could be processing bldg, staing yard ect. HIghlands co is the same way..I know a couple of beeks who have it there.. Now get this whenaI was looking in Clay co they said ok as long as I planted teh land inflowers that made income!! lol. Usually you just need to show inspection report to varify your a commercial beekeeper. But you can get it...check it out!


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Belote....that made no sence at all....we communicated and there was enough forage for us both....we made a 60 lb crop of pallmetto, more than most that year. So I did walk the ealk..I communicated and are friends!


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Broodhead I'm sending yuou a private message...call me I 
think I can help you get a tax breakwith the bees! 
Now this post has gottenwayoff topic, partly because of me I guess defending honesty so I'mnot posting or responding to anymore ethics post especially from country boy...waste of my time other than to say since he accused meof double dipping, I think I might have a slander case aganist him....So I'm taking his advice and letting my attorney handle it!


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

broodhead said:


> I am very cognizant of where honey goes, and revenue created by non-resident commercial operators is minimal as compared to the money generated by the resources taken from Florida. Beekeepers are thrifty to say the least, I don't see many of them vacationing here, just passing through long enough to get the resources. Now for the resident commercial operators, we need more of this category beekeeper. Creating and expanding the Florida workforce and economy is paramount to this industry.
> As far as the cattle contracts, cattle farmers are not paying for the fence, in years past some would try that approach, but now they will not! As far as the 20 year lease, that is not the timeframe included in the contracts. About those big tax breaks, they don't exist in the water management areas where the property owner still pays for water usage and upkeep within the district.
> That cost is higher than the property tax. In recent years the assesment of the drainage district was approaching 100 dollars per acre. Wonder how far a gallon of honey goes in covering that cost.
> I recently leased a ten acre tract for the purpose of a staging yard for my bees. My contract states that I pay the property tax on that piece of property, and currently it is listed as groveland, but since it is non producing it will be only a matter of time before the tax appraiser changes the tax code for that property. Bees don't get the same tax break as cattle !!! If you find one of those cowboys willing to pay for the fence and property tax send him over, he can get all the land he wants.


Like I said I cant comment on your cattle lease situation ,but the man I deal with in Indian river county puts the fence up himself as long as the lease is for 20 years ,most of it is throw away groves or as we call them Organic. 

I dont understand what you mean when you say taking resources from Fl. When out of state beekeepers come here and produce a crop then sell it on the open market resident beekeepers are doing the same thing. What would you like to do asses a tax on every pound of honey leaving the state of FL. As for beekeepers vacationing when you run a commercial operation you don't get allot of time off ,but when you do you are not going to go where you work.

If you think we need more commercial operators in Fl start a business and hire some people , but when you end up leaving for the summer for pollination or honey remember what you said about out of state beekeepers.

If you want the cattleman's number that I deal with I will give it to you ,he only leases big tracts of land not 5 or 10 acre lots.


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## Cascade Failure (Feb 4, 2010)

I understand that the commercial guys have a lot invested, financially and emotionally, in yards and businesses but does that really prempt legal competition? If a new operation comes along and happens to put you out of business there is nothing unethical about that if done within the confines of the law. 

Its sort of like the Walmart vs. mom and pop situation. While I may not like that the large chain stores can drive out smaller operations that cannot figure out a way to compete there is nothing illegal or unethical about competition in a free market.


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## rocky1 (Jul 19, 2009)

AllFloridaBee said:


> Thanks for the links. Seeing such respected beekeepers like George and Mike explain the crimes just hurts to watch. I hope you can put this behind you quickly, and trust that most folks are good.


Especially in George's case... He told the camera he was 90, but he's been telling us he was 87 for at least 6 years now. We're honestly not sure how old he is, but it is believed he's mid-90s. I did suggest he be put at the top of the witness list because he LOOKS like a frail old man. He is however still very sharp witted, and very astute. 

Told them, "He'll make an excellent witness, not a jury in the world that'll let Josey go after George hobbles up to the stand. And, be sure to inquire about his age while you got him up there, he won't lie under oath, the jury will be more sympathetic, and we'll know how old he really is!" 



On Dad's part, as well as several of the other victims in this matter, it is at least a little reassuring to know it was all going to the same place. We've contemplated such in the past, but felt the thefts were too wide spread, and therefore suspected it was multiple bee thiefs. Josey does have an accomplice, we're just not sure who, or how many of them, it might be. Been too many full pallets of bees go missing for him to be loading them alone.


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## rocky1 (Jul 19, 2009)

Cascade Failure said:


> Its sort of like the Walmart vs. mom and pop situation. While I may not like that the large chain stores can drive out smaller operations that cannot figure out a way to compete there is nothing illegal or unethical about competition in a free market.



Illegal no... Unethical yes.


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## Cascade Failure (Feb 4, 2010)

Rocky, please explain how?


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

cascade

Stealing bees, honey, bee supplies is not legal, futhermore this is where the money came from to pay high yard rent....stealing.
Second moving yards across the fence in some areas is not a problem..especially during orange or pepper areas that are good. The problem comes when locations where these were for buildup in dec/jan on Maple where you have a good buildup flow but not enough to stop robbing. Makes it hard to feed bes, work bees, spreads disease, mites and makes life miserable. Yards need to be a mile away or so for everyones benefit. Its not competition being better its overcrowing a area.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

In my little town we had a small walmart, but not the Supercenter that everyone else had. We had 2 within reasonable driving distance(10 miles no matter which way you turned) and the MAIN reason noone wanted them is because of the smalltown feel that we have. The little one did just fine, but was indeed a little antequated. The city voted no on bringing in the supercenter because they felt that it would indeed shut many of the small town stores down. AMAZINGLY after the city had passed a UNANIMOUS no, the county came in and said, welp, well just put it outside of the city limit. Understand you, noone wanted this behemoth here. WElp, they put it here and the stores around our square went out of business. It's not that Walmart is bad mind you, because I do indeed shop there, but, when the other businesses CANNOT compete on pricing, it is really unethical, no matter which way you look at it. We had 3 stores close that have been open since 1910.......1910........wait, Ill say it again.....1910.........The store struggles because people are upset, and 90% of their business is from the other 2 towns who have one because ours is so nice. We always were perfectly ok with shopping locally, to which the money stayed local....but now, its about corporation. I went into Walmart today at 8:04 a.m. and they had one cashier and she was backed up 26 people deep. There is no customer service.....

Some people call it a blessing, others curse it, and I kinda ride the tidal wave, but what the county did and what Walmart did was totally unethical. This is NOT the first time it has happened either with Wally World......you can see it with blinders if you like, but it was clearly evident to me......Its a double edge sword in the world of free economy. People undercut , steal and k-nive to make a buck, and our old local govm't here...well, not a single one was revoted into office.....

The people of the US have become an "instant" society. WE want everything instantly and you know what, Walmart provides it...


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## be lote (Mar 26, 2008)

im gonna tell everybody round here not to produce what i produce
cause the more they grow the more the price drops on my commoditys
an that is unethical on me. i rekon the first place to start is fokes
rentin land to everybody but me but i dont want to rent it i just wanna 
keep everybody else from rentin it. life owes me that much an that just 
aint right.



would be interestin to see spendin habits an how far they extend in 
the priciple of their ethics an impact on others


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## rocky1 (Jul 19, 2009)

rocky1 said:


> Illegal no... Unethical yes.


As defined by Wikipedia...

----------------------

eth·i·cal  –adjective 

1. pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct. 

2. being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice, esp. *the standards of a profession*: It was not considered ethical for physicians to advertise. 

3. (of drugs) sold only upon Medical prescription. 

-----------------------

If beekeepers as rule elect to honor each others territory, not crowd each others locations, not steal each others beeyards, the "standards" established by those in our field determine whether these actions are in fact ethical or not. It is no more collusion, as previously asserted in this thread, than are the billing practices established your local garage, your doctor, your attorney, or anyone else you do business with. 

If everyone in a given area, pays or charges a fair and reasonable amount for services received e.g. yard rent or services rendered e.g. pollination, and respects each others territory, works together as a group, or works side by side with respect to their competitor, you establish an "ethical" environment within the profession, in doing so. 

If someone from outside the area comes into the picture, runs ads in the paper statewide, mails all the landowners in a given area, goes door to door and squats in the middle of that ethical environment without due respect for others in that locale in the same profession, his actions would by definition be deemed "unethical" as he is not adhering to standards established by the profession. 

While his actions might well be considered "fair competition" in the world of business, competition is not always "ethical", and where business can be downright cutthroat in many instances, there is a clear and defined separation in the two.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

> If everyone in a given area, pays or charges a fair and reasonable amount for services received e.g. yard rent or services rendered e.g. pollination, and respects each others territory, works together as a group, or works side by side with respect to their competitor, you establish an "ethical" environment within the profession, in doing so.


That could actually be unethical and illegal. There is only so much collaboration that businesses in the same field can have with each other before it becomes price fixing and fraud which is unethical and illegal. There's an awefully fine line between the two. 

In terms of outyards being next to each other... well the new beekeeper doesn't (or shouldn't) want that any more than the existing beekeeper because it benefits neither of them. If the newcomer doesn't realize that, then perhaps the existing beekeeper might get more mileage out of explaining the drawbacks to the newcomer and educating the newcomer rather than simply threatening the newcomer.


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## rocky1 (Jul 19, 2009)

Bens-Bees said:


> That could actually be unethical and illegal. There is only so much collaboration that businesses in the same field can have with each other before it becomes price fixing and fraud which is unethical and illegal. There's an awefully fine line between the two.


What part of this discussion are you people missing? :scratch:

If that's the case, then the Chilton's Auto Repair Guide could be deemed unethical and illegal, since garages and service stations nationwide use it as a basis for estimation and billing purposes. The only thing the chilton's manual doesn't do is estabish the hourly rate to charge, since that would of course vary in different areas across the country. Much as the rent paid for a bee yard might vary in different locations, much as it might vary in the same area at different times of the year (_i.e. fall build or spring honey crop_), much as the price charged for pollination services might vary in different locations. Chiltons says it takes this many hours to fix it, repairs are estimated on that basis, you are typically billed at that "amount of time" x "local pricing factor". If the use of Chilton's doesn't establish collaboration when used by your mechanic, and mechanics on a nationwide basis, when most of them know they can do the job in half the time the manual says, then the cooperation of a handful of beekeepers in a given area, certainly does not establish such. 

Same holds true in the rates charged by doctors in a given hospital. They all decide what a fair rate for their particular services are when working in the hospital, they all charge similar rates for their time in the hospital. Again, not deemed collusion, but you won't find one working for half the going rate in the same hospital, they do have a set minimum clause amongst them, and all agree to charge no less.

Likewise, this arrangement is no different than any of the tens of millions of cooperatives throughout this country. The cooperative estabishes what they deem an acceptable price for their commodity, product, or service and all members agree to pay that price or sell at that price, through the cooperative. That's no different than a few local beekeepers getting together and agreeing upon a fair and reasonable price for yard rent, or pollination. 

There is nothing unethical or illegal about it, the landowner always has the right to say no, just as you have the right to say no to your mechanic before he repairs your car, just as you have the right to say no to a doctor in the hospital before he operates on you, just as you have the right to say no to joining the coop, buying their product or participating in their marketing plan. The landowner does not have to allow you on the property, he is advised what is offered for rent, or what will be charged for pollination, before agreeing to said price, and he agrees that it is a fair price before allowing you to place the bees. 

There is no price fixing involved, there is no collusion involved. It is simply a matter of establishing a fair market value for your goods and services, and offering it to the land owner, just as any of the tens of millions of cooperatives in this country do on a daily basis. With very rare exception, all of the landowners feel what we pay is more than fair, and many of them don't want half what we offer. That is why we started offering them choices in the rent we pay... Honey, Sue Bee Bar-B-Que Sauce, or check. If they ask for spun honey, we'll get it for them, if they want orange honey, we'll put it on a truck up from Florida and get it for them. 

But we still have people every year that tell us, it's too much! So I'm asking all of you geniuses who are here on this forum, debating the illegalities, and ethnicalities of this practice... If we're acting so immorally in what we offer, why do have several land owners every year tell us they don't want all of what we're offering them for rent? 

If we're acting so immorally why did one land owner bring us over two thirds of a drum of location honey his parents had accrued in the basement of their home in the 40 years we've had a beeyard on the property. He said he didn't know what else to do with it, maybe we could feed it back to the bees or something. 





Bens-Bees said:


> In terms of outyards being next to each other... well the new beekeeper doesn't (or shouldn't) want that any more than the existing beekeeper because it benefits neither of them. If the newcomer doesn't realize that, then perhaps the existing beekeeper might get more mileage out of explaining the drawbacks to the newcomer and educating the newcomer rather than simply threatening the newcomer.


--- No he shouldn't, but it does happen on regular basis in a commercial operation. Partly because some people think they are all important and simply don't give a ****, partly because some people don't understand there are limits to what a given area can produce, partly because some people think they are entitled to everything you are entitled to and they're going to get it whatever the costs. They don't care whose toes they step on, they don't care if affects your crop... bottomline is the half crop they get is half a crop they didn't have, you are out half a crop, and they don't care whether you like it or not.

That is unethical... Any way you slice it! 

--- They will seek out small tract owners who have just a few acres, and find a spot to set bees immediately adjacent to yours, typically telling the small tract owner, it isn't gonna hurt anything if the other bees are just across the fence, or a quarter mile down the road, there's plenty of flowers for all of them over there in the neighbor's field and you'll get a case of honey out of the deal. 

That is unethical... The small tract owner does not own the land the flowers are on, but he grants permission for the guys bees to work them? 

--- They tell land owners that you went out of business and won't be back the next year, to take your yards.

That is unethical... Yep! That one happened too. Had not a landowner called to check, we'd have lost half a dozen yards over that one.

--- They move into the area, and just set their bees down wherever it looks convenient, and then you have irate landowners ask you why the hell you put them there. 

That is unethical... One landowner gave him until sundown to move them or he going to spray them. The other gave him 24 hours, then gave us the beeyard to come out and tell him who to call. 

--- We had a landowner complain about the beeyard right across the road from his house. Seems his father gave the other beekeeper permission to set the bees 100 feet out the son's front door, because the wife's third cousin's son took a summer job squeezing bees for the competitor. And, the boss took the kid along to ask for beeyards, knowing we had yards on that landowner's property already. 

That is unethical... Told the complaining landowner to go talk to his father, they weren't our bees! Seems dad was grumpy because the kid wasn't splitting yard rent with him.

--- We had a landowner give another beekeeper permission to place a yard of bees for the free honey, when we have had a long standing agreement with their neighbors at the local park board to not put bees there, and have explained this to the landowner repeatedly. We moved a beeyard off of their land, at their request, to prevent the bees from being a nuisance in the public environment at the park, and we have long honored that agreement. But it's Ok for the other beekeeper to put them now all of a sudden. 

That is unethical... We told the other beekeeper about that one too. 

--- We've had beekeepers sneak around the back side of the shelterbelt and set a yard in on top ours, on the family's farm. He definitely has the right to put them there, I'm not going to argue that. But, he could have come to us and said, "Hey I'm gonna put my bees in there on grandma's place this year." Rather than hide them a hundred yards the other side of the trees. And, then he had the audicity to get grumpy when we asked the adjacent landowner about putting a yard in, a mile from said location, the following year.

That is unethical... Father-in-law that he worked for in the bee business, told him he was a horses ***** for what he'd pulled the previous year, to quit whining about it. 


We generally attempt to resolve these matters in a dignified manner, but when diplomacy fails, there are times that you have to protect your territory gentlemen, or you will not have territory to protect. Talking peacefully to some people does not work. 

The simplest method is to develop good working relations with both the landowners and beekeepers in your area. In doing so, the landowners will typically protect your interests when the guy from outside comes along. The other beekeeper will as well. When someone talks about moving in he'll typically say, "Well I don't mind because my bees aren't over there, but that guy in town will spray hell out of everything you set down, just like he did the last two guys. I don't go nowhere near his territory!!" :no:

That is the point the commercial operators herein have tried to make, and unless you face these battles on a daily basis, in a manner that they take food off your table, you can preach ethics and legalities all you want guys, it's falling on deaf ears folks. 

It's easy to say you should go talk to the other guy in a polite manner, until you find a half dozen beeyards deliberately hidden in the heart of territory you have kept bees on for 40 years. It's easy to say you should do this, or you should do that, until you broker a bee deal to help a longstanding acquaintance, who you used to consider a friend get in the business, only to have him turn around and lease 7000 acres of territory out from under you that you have had for 42 years, and the previous owner of the business you own had for 28 years prior to that. 

It may well be fair in a free market, but it sure as hell doesn't improve your disposition when you confront it on a daily basis.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_comment number one stolen money....there are two types of money...money you get by working (legal) and money you get by not workingLegal or illegal) the latter is commonly known as easy money. The money Josey was using came from illegal activity (selling stolen merchandise) guess that kinda makes it easy money...._

Selling is work, so it makes the money Josey was ALLEGEDLY earning to be money from working.

_but what really takes the cake here is you take up for a known thief _

Known thief? When was he proven guilty by a jury of his peers? In America, someone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. 

If he did steal, then he needs punished. But if he didn't break the law, then we are doing wrong by slandering an innocent man.

_GET REAL why are you making me out to be the bad guy? HE IS IN JAIL!!!!! so who is the bad guy..._

Anyone can be accused of anything. They may even find themselves thrown in jail.

Until he is proven guilty, then you are slandering and libeling an innocent man. I am not making you out to be the bad guy - you are doing a fine job of that by yourself.

_Then in your last comment you state that some people want the palying field tilted in their favor andnot a level playing field,, so is stealing everything insite selling it then using that money to get another beekeepers yards a level playing field...thats what happened. I'm like ou I want a level playing field, BUT I DONT THINK WALING ALL OVER SOMEONE ELSE IS A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. _

I do not condone theft, and I do not condone your ideas for "leveling the playing field" in your favor by violating antitrust laws.

Two wrongs don't make a right. We need to remember that.

_futhermore this is where the money came from to pay high yard rent....stealing._

Do you have any proof of this, or are you just blowing smoke and slandering and libeling an innocent man?

_Yards need to be a mile away or so for everyones benefit. Its not competition being better its overcrowing a area. _

It's not better for the guy who is not allowed to place his bees there. What you call overcrowding, courts call legal competition. Trying to band together to prevent this market saturation is against the law. Do you not understand this? Please have your attorney explain antitrust laws to you.

Being unethical is not illegal. While we hope everyone will be a good neighbor and act according to our ethics, we should NOT do illegal things because they acted unethically.


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## rocky1 (Jul 19, 2009)

Countryboy;548696
Known thief? When was he proven guilty by a jury of his peers? In America said:


> If he did steal, then he needs punished. But if he didn't break the law, then we are doing wrong by slandering an innocent man.
> 
> Anyone can be accused of anything. They may even find themselves thrown in jail.
> 
> Until he is proven guilty, then you are slandering and libeling an innocent man. I am not making you out to be the bad guy - you are doing a fine job of that by yourself.



And, you sir did not pick up 120 of your nuc boxes out Ruben Josey's backyard... I did! All of them left our possession with bees in them, all of them are now empty. Empty equipment was valued at $5000+ With bees in it, over $16,000. That is just what we have recovered to date.

There are at this point at least 7 other beekeepers equipment, that he is known to have been in possession of without their knowledge. 

Would you like to try and tell me he's not guilty??


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

The reports have said that Ruben must have had help. Countryboy, were you moonlighting? Seems like you have something to lose if you don't stand up for him.

Countryboy>>"It's not better for the guy who is not allowed to place his bees there. What you call overcrowding, courts call legal competition."- You don't have a clue do you. Ethics, Common courtesy, Common sense!!!

I may as well start double renting pasture that is maxxed out with cattle already and place another 10 head per acre. That's legal, right?


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_And, you sir did not pick up 120 of your nuc boxes out Ruben Josey's backyard... I did!_

You picked up 120 of my nuc boxes from his backyard? 

It sounds like you stole 120 nuc boxes from his backyard. Is that what you are saying?

If the police recovered 120 stolen nuc boxes, they would be being held as evidence.

I would imagine that if you took 7 beekeepers, and showed them equipment from someone else's property, and told them that guy was accused of stealing stuff....and you asked those 7 beekeepers to ID stuff that really belonged to them - I would be willing to bet more than 1 would claim stuff that wasn't really theirs.

If you looked through my beekeeping equipment, you would find boxes with other beekeepers brands. I've bought used stuff before, and I don't think I am the only one who has stuff branded by someone else. I have boxes I bought used that are branded by a 3rd beekeeper. I'm willing to bet that if you found the beekeeper whose brand is on my boxes, he'd have no idea how I came into possession of those boxes.

_Would you like to try and tell me he's not guilty?? _

At this time, he is presumed innocent of the charges. He 'might' be guilty, but he might also be innocent. One way to get rid of your competition is to frame them for a crime they didn't commit.

_Countryboy, were you moonlighting? Seems like you have something to lose if you don't stand up for him. _

No, I wasn't moonlighting by helping anyone with criminal activities down there, but we ALL have something to lose by NOT sticking up for someone accused of wrongdoing, but NOT proven guilty.

How would everyone feel if they got accused of being a thief (or honey adulterer)? Would you want everyone to presume you were innocent until the charges were proven, or would you be ok with everyone thinking you were guilty just because someone accused you?

I have no love lost for thieves, and do not condone stealing. I do have a love for personal rights, and would hope everyone would listen to both sides of the story before delivering a verdict. (And we have only heard one side of the story here. The truth may be quite different, and usually is, when both sides of the story are heard.)

Hmm. Why is it that I haven't been hearing of reports of stolen equipment until AFTER this guys gets arrested? If a vigilante group of beekeepers 'discovered' their stolen equipment on Josey's place, they could have easily planted that equipment there too.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_I may as well start double renting pasture that is maxxed out with cattle already and place another 10 head per acre. That's legal, right?_

Is your pasture fenced and confining the cattle to a predetermined area? Bee pasture is not fenced or predetermined.

Do you own/possess legal exclusive right to the cattle pasture? Do you own/possess exclusive legal right to the bee pasture?

Apples and oranges.


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## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

First we have a guy that has been charged with the stealing of beekeeping equipment and other property. If he is found guilty it will be due to the facts of the case and the evidence presented to the court. Hopefully they have found the right guy and there can be closure on the thefts.

Second there appears to be a mentality that if someone comes into a "territory" that has a commercial beekeeper within it, somehow it has become acceptable to threaten and bully the new beekeeper in the area. If the threatening and bullying does not force the new beekeeper into was is an "acceptable norm" then it comes down to the established beekeepers doing "whatever it takes" to remove the new beekeeper from the area. This appears to knowingly involve physical harm, the burning of honey bee colonies, poisoning honey bee colonies, the introduction of serious bee diseases, and various other destructive activities. Sounds like a bunch of nice business people.

If my hobby evolves into a business, it seems that other commercial beekeepers may find me to be a threat and take action against me to "drive me out". If I choose not to leave, it appears that I can expect my business to be burned to the ground or destroyed in some other manner. Remember, everyone has to start somewhere and if all the established people say "Can't put them here, can't put them there, can't put them anywhere" then we have no new beekeepers. 

Many beekeepers are getting older and getting out of the business. There is a surge in new hobby beekeepers do to the publicity about CCD. This is one reason I have honey bees myself. However, I had planned on a single hive. I now have 5 and this is my first year. This has the potential to become a small business.

When setting up a new bee yard, who gets to decide how many bees are "too many" for the area? Some places have laws that limit the number of bees in an area, others do not. Over populating an area is not good for anyone. However, we cannot resort to illegal activities to drive someone out of the area.

I am not saying that I will go in and try to drive someone else out. What I am saying is that no one has the right to assault another person or destroy the property of another person. Regardless about how someone "feels" about it doing so makes one no better than "the guy stealing bees".

For all those that have recovered your equipment, I am glad you are getting some of it back. In many cases when property is stolen it is never returned or has been severely damaged.


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## Cascade Failure (Feb 4, 2010)

suttonbeeman - Stealing is stealing. I don't support it in any fashion. Perhaps I wasn't clear. But, crowding is competition. Look at any decent size town and they likely have way too many coffee shops. Eventually the weak or those who can't adapt close their doors. I do cede the point that overcrowding weakens the bees and lessens the harvest. But a temporary reduction of profits to weaken or eliminate a competitor is a valid business practice. Burning or poisoning hives is not.


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## Cascade Failure (Feb 4, 2010)

devdog108 said:


> Understand you, noone wanted this behemoth here. WElp, they put it here and the stores around our square went out of business. It's not that Walmart is bad mind you, because I do indeed shop there, but, when the other businesses CANNOT compete on pricing, it is really unethical, no matter which way you look at it. We had 3 stores close that have been open since 1910.......1910........wait, Ill say it again.....1910.........The store struggles because people are upset, and 90% of their business is from the other 2 towns who have one because ours is so nice. We always were perfectly ok with shopping locally, to which the money stayed local....but now, its about corporation. I went into Walmart today at 8:04 a.m. and they had one cashier and she was backed up 26 people deep. There is no customer service.....


There is nothing unethical about this. The stores open since 1910 closed because their customers, including you, chose to send their business elsewhere. That is one of the consequences of operating in a free market. The stores that closed had 100 years to secure their position and expand their market base. They chose to do otherwise.


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## Cascade Failure (Feb 4, 2010)

rocky1 said:


> As defined by Wikipedia...
> 
> ----------------------
> 
> ...


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## Cascade Failure (Feb 4, 2010)

rocky1 said:


> What part of this discussion are you people missing? :scratch:
> 
> If that's the case, then the Chilton's Auto Repair Guide could be deemed unethical and illegal, since garages and service stations nationwide use it as a basis for estimation and billing purposes. The only thing the chilton's manual doesn't do is estabish the hourly rate to charge, since that would of course vary in different areas across the country. Much as the rent paid for a bee yard might vary in different locations, much as it might vary in the same area at different times of the year (_i.e. fall build or spring honey crop_), much as the price charged for pollination services might vary in different locations. Chiltons says it takes this many hours to fix it, repairs are estimated on that basis, you are typically billed at that "amount of time" x "local pricing factor". If the use of Chilton's doesn't establish collaboration when used by your mechanic, and mechanics on a nationwide basis, when most of them know they can do the job in half the time the manual says, then the cooperation of a handful of beekeepers in a given area, certainly does not establish such.
> 
> ...


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

rocky1 said:


> If that's the case, then the Chilton's Auto Repair Guide could be deemed unethical and illegal, since garages and service stations nationwide use it as a basis for estimation and billing purposes. The only thing the chilton's manual doesn't do is estabish the hourly rate to charge, since that would of course vary in different areas across the country. Much as the rent paid for a bee yard might vary in different locations, much as it might vary in the same area at different times of the year (_i.e. fall build or spring honey crop_), much as the price charged for pollination services might vary in different locations. Chiltons says it takes this many hours to fix it, repairs are estimated on that basis, you are typically billed at that "amount of time" x "local pricing factor". If the use of Chilton's doesn't establish collaboration when used by your mechanic, and mechanics on a nationwide basis, when most of them know they can do the job in half the time the manual says, then the cooperation of a handful of beekeepers in a given area, certainly does not establish such.


The key here is that Chilton's doesn't specify what to charge for parts or labor... also Chilton's isn't direct competition for mechanics. However, if all the mechanics of a city had a conference and said, "let's raise prices of labor to no less than X" that would be illegal, just as it was when the cereal manufacturers tried it.

That being said, SOME collaboration is ok, such as a cereal manufacturer's conference that discusses best practices and proceedures to ensure a top quality product... so there's a fine line there between collaboration and anti-trust. 



rocky1 said:


> If we're acting so immorally in what we offer, why do have several land owners every year tell us they don't want all of what we're offering them for rent?


You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not accusing anyone of having broken the law or crossing the line, I'm simply saying there is a fine line in there somewhere.



rocky1 said:


> No he shouldn't, but it does happen on regular basis in a commercial operation. Partly because some people think they are all important and simply don't give a ****, partly because some people don't understand there are limits to what a given area can produce, partly because some people think they are entitled to everything you are entitled to and they're going to get it whatever the costs. They don't care whose toes they step on, they don't care if affects your crop... bottomline is the half crop they get is half a crop they didn't have, you are out half a crop, and they don't care whether you like it or not.


An over-saturated area doesn't give half a crop to the newcomer though... in fact it will give them far less than they would get elsewhere, so it's not a case of someone moving in to take half your crop, it's just a case of them not knowing any better. Educate them. It's far easier than trying to bully them out of the area.




rocky1 said:


> That is unethical... The small tract owner does not own the land the flowers are on, but he grants permission for the guys bees to work them?


Don't even go there Rocky, no land owner owns all the land the bees will work and you know it. That's the route Paramount tried to go to shut down beekeepers, fortuneately the resnicks saw the folly and trouble that would cause the entire beekeeping industry and abandoned that route. Trust me when I say you don't want to take that argument.




rocky1 said:


> --- We had a landowner give another beekeeper permission to place a yard of bees for the free honey, when we have had a long standing agreement with their neighbors at the local park board to not put bees there, and have explained this to the landowner repeatedly. We moved a beeyard off of their land, at their request, to prevent the bees from being a nuisance in the public environment at the park, and we have long honored that agreement. But it's Ok for the other beekeeper to put them now all of a sudden.
> 
> That is unethical... We told the other beekeeper about that one too.


That was unethical on the part of the landowner's father... but not on the part of the beekeeper. Stupid, yes, but not unethical.



rocky1 said:


> --- We've had beekeepers sneak around the back side of the shelterbelt and set a yard in on top ours, on the family's farm. He definitely has the right to put them there, I'm not going to argue that. But, he could have come to us and said, "Hey I'm gonna put my bees in there on grandma's place this year." Rather than hide them a hundred yards the other side of the trees. And, then he had the audicity to get grumpy when we asked the adjacent landowner about putting a yard in, a mile from said location, the following year.
> 
> That is unethical... Father-in-law that he worked for in the bee business, told him he was a horses ***** for what he'd pulled the previous year, to quit whining about it.


Unless I misread that, you're the newcomer there, are you not?




rocky1 said:


> It's easy to say you should go talk to the other guy in a polite manner, until you find a half dozen beeyards deliberately hidden in the heart of territory you have kept bees on for 40 years. It's easy to say you should do this, or you should do that, until you broker a bee deal to help a longstanding acquaintance, who you used to consider a friend get in the business, only to have him turn around and lease 7000 acres of territory out from under you that you have had for 42 years, and the previous owner of the business you own had for 28 years prior to that.


Yeah, things won't always go your way... but do you really think that's any different than any other business? Do you think it's any different for the local video rental store when a redbox is installed across the street? That's just business. I hate to be so callous about it, but if you can't handle that, then perhaps owning your own business isn't the right path for you.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

Cascade Failure said:


> As to the collusion and price fixing comments in this thread...the line is very thin and gray.


Exactly, that's all I was saying.

As to the comments in here about innocent vs. guilty on the part of the accused theif... while the government has a duty to presume he is innocent until proven guilty, private citizens are free to come to their own conclusions. Not everyone that is found guilty truely is, and likewise, not everyone that is acquitted is truely innocent. Based on what I've read here about the case, I think there is a high probability that he is guilty. That is not libel or slander.


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## rocky1 (Jul 19, 2009)

May I ask, how many of you individuals arguing this point have degrees in law?


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

cascade
They say it takes all kinds to make the world go round....some of these post prove that. Well maybe I'll loose my ethics someday, but crowing another beekeeper out and calling it legal competition is a bunch of bull. Ok bring em on, crowd me and be a horses patoot....see how many dead hives you haul home...now there are two horses patoots. Guys its not competition, there is room for everyone, just not on top of each other, moving on top of someone is being a something I cant repeat here! It never ceses to amaize me how some peoples bains are wired


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## be lote (Mar 26, 2008)

you admited your bees forage off your rented land. 

what amazes me is how you think it is ethical to use other fokes
property for your personal gain without concederation an deem
that fair an just. then block the property owner rights without
care of the hardships it might cause.
aint you visitin




i guess you right it does take all kinds


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

This thread is trending a little too much toward personal attacks and name calling.


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## BeePuncher (May 25, 2007)

Cascade Failure said:


> suttonbeeman - Stealing is stealing. I don't support it in any fashion. Perhaps I wasn't clear. But, crowding is competition. Look at any decent size town and they likely have way too many coffee shops. Eventually the weak or those who can't adapt close their doors. I do cede the point that overcrowding weakens the bees and lessens the harvest. But a temporary reduction of profits to weaken or eliminate a competitor is a valid business practice. Burning or poisoning hives is not.


Well, while I agree with you for the most part I have to point out that your last statement is a bit too general - depending on how far you go in reducing profits in order to eliminate a competitor - that might go beyond healthy price competition and fall in the grey realm of predatory pricing, which in most countries is illegal from what I recall. Very difficult to prove, but cases have made it to court. Not sure of the US antitrust laws as I am in Canada. It is obvious that the party with deeper pockets wins, which goes against any free market priniciple I personally adhere to. Hey, I'm being general too! But for me at some point it does not remain a valid business practice.


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## Deer Slayer (Dec 14, 2009)

I read page one and then went straight to page 13. Amazing how this thread morphed. Maybe someday I will read 2 through 12 and see how it happened.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

very wellsaid big eddie....I could have not said it better!


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## dnebee (Jun 9, 2010)

What some people have said that they will do is shocking to me. I have been reading these threads for over a year, but was not inclined to post anything until now. And I know people will say things they never would if everyone were standing face to face, but it is still shocking.

I despise a thief and feel most don't get near the punishment deserved but, I feel strongly that ALL of us have an interest to protect our right to be assumed incent until proven guilty. Otherwise a mob of private citizens may pass judgment on YOU for something you didn't do and you find yourself at the end of a short rope that is tied to a tall tree.

Some parts of business are business no matter what business you are in, and competition one of those parts. My Grandfather started my small business in 1946. Since then we have had several people "move in" or start up a business (selling about the same product and providing the same service) in on our "territory". In fact Wal-Mart, HomeDepot, and others sell what we sell within a few miles of our shop. There is nothing unethical about these other businesses opening a shop near me. And it is just like someone putting a bunch of hives across the fence or road or 1/2 mile away. Bees need blooms just like my shop needs customers and there is a limited amount of both in a given area. While this does make your blood boil there is nothing unethical about it. What would be unethical is if I acted as Suttonbeeman and others suggest. If I were to follow their lead half of the town would be ablaze which is not ethical or legal by anyone’s standards. The only caveat to this is that a beekeeper CAN control a given “territory” if he really wants to. You have the option to go to each and every landowner in that territory and form some type of agreement. This is not possible with my shop and most people today have the “Wal-Mart mentality” and don’t support their hometown shop even when the price is the same and the product is of better quality.

If you lease a yard from a property owner then you should only put the number of hives in that yard that the property you leased will reasonably support. It would seem to me that this is the only ethical way because technically you have no claim to any property you have not leased or own. So if you lease from a property owner that has 100 acres that will support say 10 hives great, put 10 hives there. If the guy next door leases his 100 acres to someone else then it should not be a problem for the other guy to do the same. That would be the only ethical thing to do. Now I know in the real world you may put 20 hives in that yard because no one has leased the property next door, and so long as no one is leasing it there would be no issue. But if the next door property owner needs the funds and finds someone to lease his ground you can’t tell me that it is ethical to burn his hives or poison his bees. Now if the new beekeeper is ethical, he will only move in the number of hives that the next door neighbor’s property will support. And if you have good ethics you would reduce the number of hives in your yard to what your leased ground will support.

Dave

** Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. -- Theodore Roosevelt **


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## AllFloridaBee (Sep 25, 2007)

Well put, dnebee. 

for the record, I do try to support local businesses and despise CCC (cheap chinese crap).


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## STEVE R (Jul 11, 2007)

You don’t move in on another ranchers grazing land even if you are only running sheep! Hasn’t 
this been covered on Bonanza, Gunsmoke, The Big Valley and The High Chaparral?


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

dnebee
True business is business and competition is everywhere, but there is one big differance> very simply put you can move the yard of bees a mile down the road and not have all the problems associated with lots of bees(too many) in one location, have some of the same customers and less problems. However if you move YOUR business 1 mile down the road you would have almost all the same customers....not really the same is it?. I dont condone railroading anyone, but for those of us who know the facts, Mr. Josey is guilty without a doubt. THis thread was about a thief, who also went and took other beekeepers yards with money obtained illegally. How some of you think really makes me wonder....I still think some thinkers are not engaged in gear. I 'm not advocating burning or posining someones bees. I would go to them and try to work out a solution we could all live with. BUT IF someone kept going to my landowners I had bees on and taking my spots, or overcrowding a area with no regard to me, it might be legal but I will defend my living(I have a family to feed) just like a grizzley bear defends his turf or a pit bull defends his and if you dont like it or of the results of it, then thats your problem, at that point I could care less. Everyone has a point that enough is enough.


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## be lote (Mar 26, 2008)

steve r there aint no open land no more so are you payin for the rights to all that grazein land cause the property owner dam sure is havein to pay taxs on it an notes if he owes em if not irs an the bank comes callin then a auctioneer comes in an sales it all.

sittonbeeman you ever done many farm auctions


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

got 80 acres inthree tracts /farm machinery,personal property intwo weeks....farm 300 feet off bypass 1 mile from wally world. I sell quit a few..mostly estates, sometimes foreclosures..thats why I've been on computer last two days.. doing ads/proof reading ect back to beeyard tomorrow


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