# Fogging your bees?



## Maryland Beekeeper

works great


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## Andrew Dewey

You may find a few people who currently fog and are pleased with the results. For most, fogging was a fad a few years back that ultimately had poor acceptance by beekeepers.


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## Mr.Beeman

There was a thread about three weeks ago that addressed this same topic. 
Good advice there... and yes it does work. My uncle has been fogging for 30 years.


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## mac

30 years????? I thought Pedro started it around 2000. Just asking.


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## GLOCK

30 years? i tought the VARROA DESTRUCTOR was only around for like 20 year?
Is there another reson for fogging your hives?
Do you know where to get a fogger?
Thank you.


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## Daniel Y

earliest reports I can find of Varroa was in the 1960's and 70's for Europe and South America. 1987 for the US. 25 years.


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## Mr.Beeman

From what he told me he uses a mosquito fogger with baby oil. He said it works for SHB, varroa mites, as well as trachael mites. He said it suffocates everything except the bees.
30 years and chemical treatment free.... must be working. He has some real strong hives.
My plan is to shadow him this spring as much as possible.


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## Dconrad

GLOCK said:


> 30 years? i tought the VARROA DESTRUCTOR was only around for like 20 year?
> Is there another reson for fogging your hives?
> Do you know where to get a fogger?
> Thank you.


This is where I got my fogger ...... I use FGMO and a few drops of peppermint oil :thumbsup:


http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...=-1&keyword=fogger&storeId=10051#.UOWSEYnjmi8


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## honeyman46408

foging works for me.



> He said it works for SHB,


Well it has NOT worked for SHBs here!!!!


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## westernbeekeeper

Dconrad said:


> This is where I got my fogger...
> 
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...=-1&keyword=fogger&storeId=10051#.UOWSEYnjmi8


I use the same one. Fogging works well for me.


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## oldforte

Mister Beeman, how often does he fogg?


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## Mr.Beeman

Truthfully, I'm not exactly sure. I can only surmise that he fogs when needed.
I will find out this spring though and update. Guessing at least 3-4 times a season? That's guessing though. I imagine it would hinge upon the mite load.


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## RudyT

With this fogger do you shoot it from the top down or the bottom up?


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## GLOCK

Dconrad said:


> This is where I got my fogger ...... I use FGMO and a few drops of peppermint oil :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...=-1&keyword=fogger&storeId=10051#.UOWSEYnjmi8


I'm going to buy this fogger tomorro there's a HOMEDEPOT it the town i have my restaurant and i went to there web site and there's 18 in the store so i think i'm going with fogging this year. Thank you.


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## Maryland Beekeeper

recommend u pick up a respirator while u are there


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## GLOCK

When is the best time to fog?
Should i wait till the flow is over ?
Can ya fog with the honey supers on {i'm going to bet not}
The fat man says every 21 day{mite cycle} i'm going with as needed what do you all think?
Thank you.
Beesorce is the best.:applause:


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## DC Bees

Maryland Beekeeper, why do you recommend a respirator for mineral oil fogging?


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## GLOCK

DC Bees said:


> Maryland Beekeeper, why do you recommend a respirator for mineral oil fogging?


DC do you use straight mineral oil do you add any thing?


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## DC Bees

This will be my first year fogging,so I will use mineral oil only.I don't see the benefits of adding other oils such as,thyme.I plan to fog in the spring before adding supers then in august when I pull supers and once more in the fall.


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## Maryland Beekeeper

from what I gather, inhaling atomized petrochemicals is unhealthy, add essential oils and it becomes dangerous


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## lazy shooter

Does fogging kill anything else other than varroa mites?


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## jim lyon

Barry: I hope when you threw out the old corduroy suits and hush puppies in your last closet cleaning that you saved the old mineral oil forum. Looks like its coming back in style.


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## johno

Jim, fogging seems another of the varoa stories that devides beekeepers, there is some info avaiable on tests conducted by some gentleman which seems to support the fact that is effective against mites. AS also the use of formic acid and am not to sure about papers on the use of oxalic acid. I have now the means to administer all 3 of those treatments and have made use of the first two, there is no doubt that formic acid kills mites and I have used afogger on some hives with EMO and 2 drops per oz and have seen quite a few dead mites on the bottom board thereafter. So come springtime that will be anther system I would like to evaluate.
Johno


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## GLOCK

DC Bees said:


> This will be my first year fogging,so I will use mineral oil only.I don't see the benefits of adding other oils such as,thyme.I plan to fog in the spring before adding supers then in august when I pull supers and once more in the fall.


Me to DC so i quess we will see if it works i to am going with mineral oil i think i may give the baby oil a try since MR BEE said his uncle been using it for 30 years and is chemical free.
I bought a fogger today at HOME DEPOT so we'll see how it go's this spring


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## Maryland Beekeeper

lazy, 
With the thousands of bacteria present the chances are high that some are affected negatively, as with any treatment the question is, do the benefits outweigh the risk ?

My opinion is that the B's don't like it one bit

p.s. baby oil is mineral oil with fragrance added


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## Barry

Jim, I looked, but along with the old corduroy suits and hush puppies, the FGMO forum went as well. I had it for awhile, but finally deleted it all. Remember, it started out as FGMO fogging only with a cotton cord or two that had been saturated, placed in the hive. Eventually thymol was used as well. I have a fogger that's never been used, still in the box if I could sell it to someone.


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## adgjoan

I wonder why fogging was not well received by beekeepers years ago? What are the down falls of fogging?


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## jim lyon

I haven't heard of any negatives associated with fgmo fogging. It no doubt encourages some additional grooming action in the hive which I suppose can't be bad. The real question is are there any quantifiable benefits in controlling varroa. I have no personal experience with it, I only heard a number of second hand accounts of beekeepers that tried it for a year or two and then quit because it didn't seem to have much , if any, effect in controlling varroa. That and the fact that there used to be a lot of spirited debate on Beesource about fgmo is about all I know.


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## GLOCK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g7GdrZoNhA
A little off topic but i don't know about this fogging thing.


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## jim lyon

GLOCK said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g7GdrZoNhA
> A little off topic but i don't know about this fogging thing.


Now we're talking. Finally something that will actually kill varroa.


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## mgolden

Mr.Beeman said:


> Truthfully, I'm not exactly sure. I can only surmise that he fogs when needed.
> I will find out this spring though and update. Guessing at least 3-4 times a season? That's guessing though. I imagine it would hinge upon the mite load.


Attached is information on mite life cycle. 

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Beekeeping/Varroa_Mite

Mites enter cell with larvae about a day before cell is capped. Fogging will not be doing any harm to mites in capped cells. Think one would have to fog once a week for three weeks min to affect all the mites. I know it is recommended that Apivar strips be left in the hive for 42 days. 

Mineral oil may not be effective because iy is not being appplied repeatedly. Have seen a video where a thin bead of mineral oil is applied along top of each brood frame with each inspection( some 7-10 days for hobby bee keepers).

Would appreciate any insights from others.


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## jim lyon

Seems like I hear this "once a week for 3 weeks" thing a lot regarding treatments. More is better no doubt but remember a mite may only see the light of day for a matter of hours perhaps even less. When a hive is rapidly expanding its a target rich environment for a varroa. I really doubt that they spend up to a week shopping for the perfect larvae.


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## Mr.Beeman




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## mgolden

jim lyon said:


> Seems like I hear this "once a week for 3 weeks" thing a lot regarding treatments. More is better no doubt but remember a mite may only see the light of day for a matter of hours perhaps even less. When a hive is rapidly expanding its a target rich environment for a varroa. I really doubt that they spend up to a week shopping for the perfect larvae.


Suggest a read of the varraoa life cycle in the attachment above. When the adult varroa is laying eggs in a capped cell, a mineral oil application is doing nothing to control continuing infestation of hatching and emerging new varroa, unless there is repeated mineral oil application.


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## Daniel Y

Jim, I have read one study that indicated a mite is dead with 2 minutes of exposure. I am not sure that treating once a week for 3 weeks has anything to do with how long a mite is exposed as it has to do with exposing as many mites as possible as bees emerge. the brood cycle of a bee is 21 days. somewhat explains the 3 week connection. Only 13 of those days are spent in a sealed cell so there is actually an additional week in the recommended treatment.

In addition no matter what treatment you use you are still trying to get to the same mite. With the same life cycle and presenting the same problems to get at it.

Finally you have the life span of the treatment to consider. If fogging remains effective for 7 days any mite the comes out of a cell is exposed. For the entire week. not just when fogging is under way. Fogging breaks down the oil to minute particles and coats the hive better is how I understand it. it is not the fog itself that is killing the mites. it is the presence of the oil in the hive. Treating mites with oil is nothing new. I was doing it in the early 70's.

I also suspect fogging has never caught on in part because it requires time and effort. As well as needs to be repeated week after week. I am not sure the repeated application is necessary though depending on how long the oil remains effective in the hive.


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## GLOCK

MR BEE MAN
The new foggers are more stylish.
I seen that tube thats what got me to go out and buy a fogger .
Is that your uncle?


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## jim lyon

Yes, and unless your treatment is constantly available to kill the varroa as it emerges and quickly reinfests then the one week time frame is nothing more than an arbitrary number. Why not every day for 21 days?


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## Daniel Y

Jim do you take cold medicine none stop until the symptoms go away? I have heard you will get cured of a cold right fast that way. You are still thinking the only time a mite gets killed is the moment the fog is in the hive. a fogging according to the video kills mites fro 21 days. Fogging is just the application method. Not the treatment period. Think about it a while. Or are you just more interested in making a ridiculous argument?


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## Mr.Beeman

Not my uncle.... he's young comapared to my uncle. lol

I like this fogger.... $60.00 plus tax ..... built in the USA


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## Maryland Beekeeper

capped brood cells are not air tight, only honey


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## Daniel Y

Copied from the link on Varroa mites concerning the life cycle of the mite.

Within a hive mites can reproduce on a 10-day cycle. The female mite, after detaching from an adult bee, will enter the cell of an uncapped brood. The mite shows preference for the drone brood, but will select what is available. Once the cell is sealed, the female will begin to lay eggs and then expire. As the young bee develops, so will the mites. As soon as the new bee is able to leave its berthing cell, the mites attach themselves and start the cycle anew. The life cycle of the Varroa mite is dependant on the existence of brood within a colony.

The mite has a 10 day cycle. Brood is capped for 13 days for workers 14 days for drones.

In a colony where eggs are constantly being laid there is a constant emergence. Also a constant appearance of young female mites looking for the next cell.

One question I still have. How long is a fogging effective? By the above every mite in a colony would be exposed in 14 days tops. Some other treatments are recommended for twice that long.

The life cycle of the mite is not nearly as important as how often it is exposed to the colony. And that is going to be every moment for 14 days at least.


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## jim lyon

The interval of any type of treatment should be the length of time that the treatment is effective, its really just that simple. If there is evidence that fgmo fogging kills mites for 7 days then it should be used every 7 days. If the 7 day interval just seems like a good number because its divisible by 21 then I wouldnt consider that anything more than an arbitrary number. I am going to leave it to others to argue about if and for how long fgmo kills mites, unlike some on this forum I post about things I have experience in and I hope my real life experience helps others, I have never claimed expertise in the realm of fgmo fogging.


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## mgolden

Listened to FatBeeMan again and he says once a week and them suggest once every three weeks. Seems to work for him.

Point is that mineral oil needs to be applied repeatedly to be effective.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Daniel Y said:


> Or are you just more interested in *making a ridiculous argument*?


Daniel is certainly an acknowledged expert in "making a ridiculous argument_._"  Here is one of his classics, in reference to *Superstorm Sandy:*


Daniel Y said:


> At one time I heard this is supposed to be some sort of perfect storm thing though with the hurricane meeting a cold front. I can't find much on that though. At any rate you *have a pansy storm* that is only gong to get the crap kicked out of it for the next 12 hours or so before it makes a move that will kick more of the crap out of it before it really reaches anyone. And the problem is?


You can see the quote in context in the thread by clicking the blue arrow in the quote box.

:ws:


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## jmgi

Could someone address my question as to whether any real studies have been done, not just a personal observation, on whether FGMO has a negative effect on bees or queen when used regularly, say every week or so? The FGMO is an oil, so it doesn't really evaporate away when it attaches to the bees or interior of hive, so how does it not build up over time? John


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## Daniel Y

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Daniel is certainly an acknowledged expert in "making a ridiculous argument_._"  Here is one of his classics, in reference to *Superstorm Sandy:*
> 
> 
> You can see the quote in context in the thread by clicking the blue arrow in the quote box.
> 
> :ws:


Radar what you seem to not understand is I think my comment was right. Feel free to disagree. your opinion is not better than mine. I still say that storm was hyped beyond belief. so much so they could not even accurately report the first death from it because they where so tunnel vision about making New York look bad. I said it was hype. it was hype and it continues to be hype. live with it. and keep you nose up the butt of a useless media. I have a brain and tend to use it.

You might do a little research. at the time I posted that they where predicting wide spread destruction from the Carolinas to Maine. Yep saw that. Not, it was a hurricane that barely survived landfall.


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## Daniel Y

Jim here is one from 1999.
http://www.apiservices.com/articles/us/mineral_oil.htm

nearly everything else I have found so far refers back to the above report in some manner or other. I have located other sites by doing a search for fogging bees with mineral oil. in one case Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez gives a detailed description of how to do it.
http://mainebee.com/articles/mineral_part2.php

I also found this from 2011.
http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/assocfiles/930075FNE08.641KeyserFinalReport.pdf

Copied from the above link

5. Results
Data obtained throughout this three-year project clearly suggests the success of FGMO/thymol fogging as a natural, cost-effective and sustainable method of Varroa mite control on the honey bee.
Much of the success of FGMO/thymol fog for Varroa mite control is evident in the data provided on the average mite count graphs below, but there are also many indirect and informal observations that support the use and recommendation of fogging. Some of these observations include overall strength and vitality of the experimental hives (observed by activity of honey bees at the hive entrance), honey production, over wintering success, and swarming (due to the vigor and population of the experimental hives).


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## BeeCurious

Daniel Y said:


> Radar what you seem to not understand is I think my comment was right. Feel free to disagree. your opinion is not better than mine. I still say that storm was hyped beyond belief. so much so they could not even accurately report the first death from it because they where so tunnel vision about making New York look bad. I said it was hype. it was hype and it continues to be hype. live with it. and keep you nose up the butt of a useless media. I have a brain and tend to use it.
> 
> You might do a little research. at the time I posted that they where predicting wide spread destruction from the Carolinas to Maine. Yep saw that. Not, it was a hurricane that barely survived landfall.


Daniel Y, How many more people would have needed to die for to have the decency to stop defending your ignorant posting?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Daniel Y said:


> I have a brain and tend to use it.


Where can we see the evidence of such use?

:digging:


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## jmgi

Thank you for the information Daniel Y. John


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## Barry

Daniel Y said:


> Jim here is one from 1999.
> http://www.apiservices.com/articles/us/mineral_oil.htm
> 
> nearly everything else I have found so far refers back to the above report in some manner or other.


That's the problem. It's a report done by Pedro, and Pedro is nowhere to be found. There has been no update since his early postings.


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## Daniel Y

Barry said:


> That's the problem. It's a report done by Pedro, and Pedro is nowhere to be found. There has been no update since his early postings.


Are you saying this is evidence it does not work. I am not aware of the mentioned thread and it's dying off. People want to comment on it but not give specifics. why was the issue dropped?
Pedro may not have updated it but the method is obviously still being advocated. I have found several reports from various sources concerning the use of mineral oil with various application methods. at least one indicating that application by fogging is more effective. I have not seen one report that indicates that mineral oil is not effective.


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## Daniel Y

Rader, You still haven't found anything to say about bees yet? I realize we all value your perfected onion. But maybe you can learn something about the subject matter once in a while. Your not all that interesting.


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## Barry

Daniel Y said:


> Are you saying this is evidence it does not work.


I'm saying there is no study done on FGMO that I know of, outside of Pedro's own work. And again, if it was something that had lasting merit, there would still be ongoing work with it. There is none.


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## Rader Sidetrack

> I have not seen one report that indicates that mineral oil is not effective.

Read Randy Oliver's comments at ScientificBeekeeping.com Here's the link:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/ipm-7-the-arsenal-natural-treatments-part-2/

You need to read the page in its entirety, but here is a short quote:


> The “fixed” oils–vegetable or food-grade mineral oil (FGMO), or hydrogenated shortening (Crisco) are also often used. Although grease or oil patties have been proven to be effective against tracheal mite (by disrupting its questing behavior), *I haven’t had any luck in finding verifiable data demonstrating success in using fixed oils to control varroa.* However, fixed oil may be useful as a carrier to distribute essential oils. Indeed, the specific type of oil carrier greatly affects the absorption and excretion of essential oils (Wilson & Isman 2006).​


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## Daniel Y

Barry said:


> I'm saying there is no study done on FGMO that I know of, outside of Pedro's own work. And again, if it was something that had lasting merit, there would still be ongoing work with it. There is none.


Did you look at my second link from 2011? 
I don't agree that it is evidence it does not work simply because people don't use it. That is evidence of the choice people made in regard to it. why they would choose that might be for many reasons. Effectiveness may not have anything to do with that choice.


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## Maryland Beekeeper

I've got ongoing work with it

WVU/UMD has ongoing work with it

-Fat Bee Man, Michael Bush I believe, there is quite a bit of ongoing work


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## jmgi

Barry, in all honesty, I don't think there is any treatment for mites that has lasting merit to it, that's why a new treatment comes along every couple years or so. I think every treatment that has been invented has done some good towards mite population reduction, some are better than others. I don't want to divert this thread into another treat or not treat discussion, so I won't, but to say one form of treatment isn't worth using (I know you are not saying this) in favor of another is not helping us gain any ground on varroa, because none of them do the job we are looking for, which is complete erradication of mites in the hive, isn't that what we all hope for in a treatment or new genetics? John


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## Barry

No one finds it odd that the guy who first started broadcasting the use of FGMO is silent and nowhere to be found? Nothing new on it since it was made public on discussion forums many years ago? It appears to me to be more like another Housel Positioning. Use it if you want. Broadcast your success with it. I've never had the need to try it. Got a brand new fogger to sell someone!


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## jmgi

I don't doubt some find it odd that Dr. Pedro has been so silent, is he still alive? Maybe he has nothing more to add to his original findings, maybe there was a slight improvement with the use of FGMO fogging, but that's it. What more are you looking for on fogging? What more is there to speak about concerning powdered sugar dusting? Hundreds still do it I'm sure, but its effectiveness still doesn't change from its initial use years ago. Unless some of these old treatments can be delivered in a new way which increases its benefit against mites, they're just old treatments. John


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## Maryland Beekeeper

Jon, 
Every species has its disease and parasites, not looking for complete eradication, something else would just fill the void, just to assist immature colony to maturity, immature immune system to mature.


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## Spark

Most people who use the fogging believe it is working for them probably without keeping records but just from their hands on view. For the most part it seems from reading actual research, although it doesn't devastate varroa, it does seem to set them back giving the bees a fighting chance against them.

I'd also say from what I've read it's an inexpensive way to at least combat varroa and seems to be more effective than sugar dusting as well. I do not use anything right now but I have thought about using fogging, I do believe it's the thymol and have read where beehives near thyme are productive and healthy.


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## Daniel Y

He graduated Veterinary school in 1962. If he was 24 at that time it makes him 74 now. 62 at the time he wrote that report. Is it surprising that someone retires? He may very well have passed way.

In a search of his name I have come up with two different people one of which is obviously our Pedro. and at least one link clearly indicates he was banished from forums for proposing this method. Evidence of the venomous rejection I am aware of. And also indicating it is beekeepers and not Pedro that have prevented this information from being common knowledge.

A member was banned form a group simply for trying to tell others where to find further information or follow Pedro. 
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=18264.0;wap2

I found this from 2001 
http://www.apicultura.com.ar/apis47en.html
included int the link above is this comment.
Pedro is Graduate in Zootechny by the University of Puerto Rico; Graduate in Veterinary science in the University Of Alcalá de Henares of Madrid and Doctorate in Veterinary science in the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia (USA).
At the moment he is retired as high official of the Agriculture office of the USA

So the study was concluded in 1999 and Pedro was retired in 2001.

The deleted thread was dated 2008. So some sharing of this methods was still going on as of then. The trail of that information was broken over one forums spat with another. So just who is to blame there as to the break in information. 

in searching beemaster for information I came across this link.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=169445
A 6 week study that concluded there is no benefit to FGMO fogging of hives.

That is as far as I have been able to tack any sort of trail concerning FGMO fogging. The trail does go on. I woudl like to know where Pedro moved to from beemaster though. The one thread i did start to read ont eh subject there was full of grossly inaccurate information.


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## BeeCurious

Maryland Beekeeper said:


> I've got ongoing work with it
> 
> WVU/UMD has ongoing work with it
> 
> -Fat Bee Man, Michael Bush I believe, there is quite a bit of ongoing work


I would be surprised to learn that Michael Bush is fogging bees...


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## Mike Gillmore

I spoke with Dr Rodriguez on the phone several years ago and he sent me Thymol crystals and some literature on Thymol Fogging and Cords. At that time I remember him saying that he was thinking about closing down his VA Non-Profit Honey Bee Research operation in Virginia Beach to relocate permanently to Spain. I sensed in the conversation he was extremely frustrated at the push back he was receiving from the general beekeeping community. At this point in time it sounded like he had abandoned the theory that FGMO alone was effective at controlling mites, but he was confident that if Thymol FGMO Fogging & Thymol Soaked Cords were both used on a regular basis that is was a very effective mite control method. I'm not sure if he is still with us or not, I think he was in his 90's back then. 

I have a fogger stored in my garage that never gets used anymore. It may work effectively with Thymol, but I do not have the time to keep up with it religiously as outlined in Pedro's protocol. I'm successfully addressing mites with other methods that are not as time consuming in their application as fogging is.


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## jmgi

Maryland Beekeeper, what's wrong with complete eradication? Did we not have a complete absence of varroa at one time in this country? I would go back to those days in a heartbeat. I think that saying without varroa something else would fill the void quite possibly would happen eventually, as honey bees always seem to have been plagued with some pest or disease in modern history. I still would rather be varroa-less and take my chances with the next pest that comes along, I just despise the nasty bugger. John


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## Maryland Beekeeper

John,
Nothing wrong with it, just more than I am hoping for for foreseeable future, and I was mistaken about Mr. Bush.

Mike,
What's quicker than fogging ?


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## jmgi

Maryland Beekeeper, I hear you, I don't expect anything major helping the bees in the near future either, I mean, how much more is there to learn about the mite that we don't already know, most of what we know or are capable of knowing about the mite is behind us. Until a better bee is developed that is extremely hygienic towards the mite, we are going to have to continue to experiment with new treatments that can kill a bug on a bug without harming the host bug over the longer term. John


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## DC Bees

Could fogging knock the mites back enough so that the bees can survive and still be able to build a natural resistance to them? I understand that it will not kill all of them, but maybe enough to make a difference. I would like to not only see my hives but the feral bees in my area develop a resistance to the mites and the viruses if that is possible.


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## Mike Gillmore

Maryland Beekeeper said:


> Mike,
> What's quicker than fogging ?


Almost everything else out there is less demanding. Strips, pads, Oxalic Acid, etc. Most are a one or three step process that only takes a few minutes per application. Pedro said that for his fogging method to work properly you need to fog "every" week, excluding periods you are in a nectar flow or if the bees are clustered tight in winter. And Thymol cords must be kept on the top bars continuously. With my other job and family obligations it would not be possible for me to visit all my sites every week to keep up with his protocol. It's just not a good fit for me.

By the way, I'm not promoting or debunking fogging. Just relating what was explained to me. I never used it long enough to determine if it works effectively or not. I tried fogging with Thymol for one season, but not methodically as I should have. It didn't work for me, the mites exploded at the end of summer and I had some serious problems as a result. Had I applied it religiously, it may have worked. I don't know.


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## GLOCK

Well what i have planed for this year is to use drone frames plus have a brood break and use SBBs and fogging when needed . Plus i'm going to make some splits maybe some swarms{thats another problem i need to figure out} and make try to make 10 nucs for spring .
And of course queens so i'm sure i'll have bees going into winter.
I'll be keeping records on all my hives and i'll let everyone know how fogging works out . 
Can't wait till spring i checked my hives today and all are humming peacfully theres some bee's that must of thought it was warm and it was not and they didn't make it back to the hives and dot the snow with there bodys


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## jrhoto

Barry
What are you asking for the fogger?
John


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## fat/beeman

well I an not going to say a lot about 4.9 cell size or fogging for one reason. two many arm chair experts that have maybe 1-3 hives come across as a expert and just confuse new beekeepers her to learn. when I would post here some know it all deletes it so why make a effort to post. I run plenty hives and make a living at it. I sell bees and queens to those no believers in fogging or 4.9
let me tell you just 1 thing why there not going to say it works==THERE IS NO MONEY IT FOR THEM CAN'T MAKE A DIME ON IT. now I will be silent for many more yrs. just one thing look at how long some of these guys been on here with thousands of post, I been on here many yrs with less then 500 post=======I will wait to see how long it takes for this to be deleted


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## jmgi

There's no money in vitamins, herbs, supplements etc., the cure comes with the surgical knife and drugs, that's the way they want it to be because that's where the money is. Could there be a similar situation when it comes to varroa treatments, I really don't think so in this case, IMO. However, I do think that there is some help with FGMO and smaller cell size. John


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## GLOCK

fat/beeman said:


> well I an not going to say a lot about 4.9 cell size or fogging for one reason. two many arm chair experts that have maybe 1-3 hives come across as a expert and just confuse new beekeepers her to learn. when I would post here some know it all deletes it so why make a effort to post. I run plenty hives and make a living at it. I sell bees and queens to those no believers in fogging or 4.9
> let me tell you just 1 thing why there not going to say it works==THERE IS NO MONEY IT FOR THEM CAN'T MAKE A DIME ON IT. now I will be silent for many more yrs. just one thing look at how long some of these guys been on here with thousands of post, I been on here many yrs with less then 500 post=======I will wait to see how long it takes for this to be deleted


fat/beeman if thats you in the youtube on fogging well just to let you know i'm on 4.9 cell and just bought a fogger and i'll know how it works this spring and i must say thank you for the info i listen to all good beekeeper that give good knowledge about beekeeping and now i know how to fog i didn't know anything about it a month ago but thanks to you i now know..


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## Mr.Beeman

You better keep posting fatbeeman. There are alot of beekeepers that watch your videos and are unable to "talk" to you in great detail. You obviously know what you are doing.... so do us a favor and pass along you knowledge on video as well as here.
I am a firm believer that if you can teach others.... you know what your doing.


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## GLOCK

Mr.Beeman said:


> You better keep posting fatbeeman. There are alot of beekeepers that watch your videos and are unable to "talk" to you in great detail. You obviously know what you are doing.... so do us a favor and pass along you knowledge on video as well as here.
> I am a firm believer that if you can teach others.... you know what your doing.


i second that.:thumbsup:
So MRBEEMAN thats not your uncle?{fat/beeman}


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## westernbeekeeper

Mr.Beeman said:


> You better keep posting fatbeeman. There are alot of beekeepers that watch your videos and are unable to "talk" to you in great detail. You obviously know what you are doing.... so do us a favor and pass along you knowledge on video as well as here.
> I am a firm believer that if you can teach others.... you know what your doing.


Ditto!


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## Maryland Beekeeper

Mike,
My methodology:
Light fogger, (takes a sec to heat up), hit entrance of hive for 1/2-1 second, on to next one, I could do a dozen easy in less than 3 minutes


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## fat/beeman

thanks for all the kind works I am in the chat room most eves to answer questions and help if I can. I try to pass on good info no=BS I have nothing to prove to anyone here just a old beekeeper try to pass on a art form to the younger generation.I have made my living for over 50 yrs commercially and there is no need for chem's. once a beekeeper reaches a place there is nothing to prove to anyone but him self======lol


Don...............>>>>>>>>the fatbeeman


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## Mike Gillmore

Maryland Beekeeper said:


> Mike,
> My methodology:
> Light fogger, (takes a sec to heat up), hit entrance of hive for 1/2-1 second, on to next one, I could do a dozen easy in less than 3 minutes



I understand that the actual fogging process takes only seconds. The problem for me is that I have my bees in three different yards and I would spend at least 2 1/2 hours just in driving time to go to all three locations. I'm not able to do that every week. My full time job and family responsibilities keep me pretty busy. My hives are a hobby and passion of mine, not my livelihood.

If it's working for you I think that's great. Like I said before, I'm just relating what Dr R said to me years ago. If I would keep up with it as recommended it may work fine for me too. 

In your methodology, how often do you fog your hives?


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## Maryland Beekeeper

every three weeks


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## Mike Gillmore

That's great, glad it's working for you. Do you have a link to the ongoing University studies?


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## Maryland Beekeeper

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/


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## Mike Gillmore

Can't seem to find anything on FGMO. Looks like mostly Formic Acid and Essential Oil references.


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## Maryland Beekeeper

Mike,
You are right, I can't find a thing. Why is that ? I thought for sure I had seen several separate references from credible institutions.


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## Daniel Y

There are three basic classes of refined mineral oils:

paraffinic oils, based on n-alkanes
naphthenic oils, based on cycloalkanes
aromatic oils, based on aromatic hydrocarbons (distinct from essential oils)
You might want to see if any of the oils fall under the broader classification of Mineral Oils. Studies woudl tend to be more specific in the exact oil they used. while many oils fall under the name Mineral oil.


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## Mike Gillmore

Yea, I can't find anything either. The best reference with a track record would be with Fat Beeman. He's a queen breeder with stock that he has been selecting for many years. The best chance for success might be the combination of his queens, 4.9 cell comb, and FGMO fogging. If that's his formula, and it works, replicate it. Perhaps it takes a combination of all three to be successful.


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## Mike Gillmore

Daniel Y said:


> There are three basic classes of refined mineral oils:


I've only heard of FGMO being used in foggers. Petroleum based Food Grade Mineral Oil (Laxative) sold in most Drug Stores. Which group would that fall under? I'm not familiar with the three you listed.


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## Maryland Beekeeper

Mike,
I hit an untreated colony that was crashing from multiple parasites with the fogger just before the end and my observation was that it rained dead mites. I will endeavor to expose varroa to FGMO fog in jar next season and report results.

found one I remember seeing:
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG...socfiles/930075FNE08.641KeyserFinalReport.pdf


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## Mike Gillmore

Nice find. That's the exact protocol that Pedro had sent to me. "Weekly" fogging "with Thymol" in the FGMO. The only difference is that he told me Thymol soaked cords were necessary as well to guarantee success. Personally I think much of the effectiveness can be attributed to the action of the Thymol rather than the oil itself, as in other Thymol based products such as Api Life Var. 

Anyway, glad you found this more current fogging study. I wish they would have collected alcohol wash mite counts, but the data they did record is sufficient evidence to prove a point.


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## Maryland Beekeeper

It seems odd and not at all encouraging that a dozen grad. student reports on this don't pop right up. And I haven't searched the forum, no reports of FGMO fog in a jar of mites ?


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## Mountain Bee

Why is the Fat/Beeman seem so jaded towards sharing his knowledge in this most?


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## GLOCK

He's in the chat room most nights i went in last night and he answered a few questions for me on fogging.
The beekeepers that are here sometime can get in to some heated discussions and i'm guessing he got mad at some of them and had posts deleted if you look back on this post he said something about his post getting deleted. He has 130 youtubes.


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## Mountain Bee

Just talked with Fat/Beeman in chat, love his you tube videos. OK seems simple to find out how well the fogging works. Put in screen bottom board, check mite fall levels,fog check mite fall levels. Easy peasy lemon squeasy


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## GLOCK

i'm all for it.


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## bbrowncods

Mike Gillmore said:


> Yea, I can't find anything either. The best reference with a track record would be with Fat Beeman. He's a queen breeder with stock that he has been selecting for many years. The best chance for success might be the combination of his queens, 4.9 cell comb, and FGMO fogging. If that's his formula, and it works, replicate it. Perhaps it takes a combination of all three to be successful.


In his videos he uses Oxalic Acid Fogging as well...
Thanks for the videos FBM! Really down to earth and simple to understand for us newbees.


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## mac

GLOCK said:


> fat/beeman if thats you in the youtube on fogging well just to let you know i'm on 4.9 cell and just bought a fogger and i'll know how it works this spring and i must say thank you for the info i listen to all good beekeeper that give good knowledge about beekeeping and now i know how to fog i didn't know anything about it a month ago but thanks to you i now know..


 Don't use baby oil it contains fragrance. Use Food grade mineral oil its a laxative.


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## mac

In the video Don doesn't mention Thymol so I don't think he uses it. Better check with him if he uses sbb cause a lot of the fog goes out the bottom. Have used check mite once in 2000 used aplifevar once 3 years ago used hop guard twice this year have cleared up dwv twice using fgmo. So why did I stop using fgmo. Had the inspector come out and it's not approved for use. All the authorities at the local bee meetings say it doesn't work. So I have started using fgmo it again. Pedro was run off this forum I can't believe they way he was treated. Worse than in tailgator. I also remember he requested all his posts be removed. THANKS FAT BEEMAN


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## Barry

Pedro was not "run off the forum." There were forum rules then as there are now. The fact is, some people don't like venues where civil discourse takes place, where they are questioned and debated. I lost interest in FGMO when the prescribed method kept changing and eventually required thymol. So what's actually doing the job, FGMO or thymol? Yes, he requested that his posts be removed. I obliged, but wouldn't do so again as the record can now be made up if one wishes.

FGMO is a treatment, as is thymol. It's disingenuous for anyone to claim treatment free if they use either of these IMO.


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## GLOCK

you sure are against fogging?!


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## mac

Barry said:


> Pedro was not "run off the forum." .


 When a group of people berate someone to the point that person leaves a discussion I call that being “run off” has nothing to do with rules. I did not mean to imply he was run off by the moderator. Sorry ya took it that way. Cup of tea maybe???


Barry said:


> The fact is, some people don't like venues where civil discourse takes place, where they are questioned and debated. .


 The civility of the discourse bordered on personal attacks if not outright insults I don’t blame him for leaving.


Barry said:


> Yes, he requested that his posts be removed. I obliged, but wouldn't do so again as the record can now be made up if one wishes. .


 Is someone making stuff up?? I don’t think I have. If so fill me in.


Barry said:


> FGMO is a treatment, as is thymol. It's disingenuous for anyone to claim treatment free if they use either of these IMO.


 I also don’t think anyone using it has indicated it was treatment free. I think fat beeman used the term organic but not treatment free. A cup of tea maybe???


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## Barry

Thanks, I've already had my coffee and I'm quite calm, thank you.

I'm not implying that you implied it was me that 'ran him off.' I didn't. Cup of tea maybe? 

I can't fill you in on what took place because it's all been deleted, hence my point 'I'd never do that again.'

Don has claimed TF. Maybe he has changed recently. I shared what I personally believe. I know some think it's not a treatment and are fine with the TF label/claim. I say great, to each their own.


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## Maryland Beekeeper

I have yet to read anyone as against fogging, just desirous of evidence, how no one has fogged a jar of mites on u-tube w/ un-fogged one sitting next to it is what perplexes me or even done as FATBMAN describes, I will endeavor to do so which obviously leads to the necessity to collect mites, ideas ?, I suppose once the cutout calls start coming there will be mites, getting unmolested sample separate from B's would be nice though, ideas there ? .....lost my train of thought...


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## mgolden

One should be able to do a test. 

Do a mite count with alcohol wash or icing sugar. Pick a hive with a >3% mite count.

Remove and clean sticky board in a screened bottom and recoat with oil. Do a mite count on sticky board after a couple of days.

Remove and clean and coat sticky board. Fog and do a mite count on sticky board after a couple of days. 

Again do an alcohol wash or icing sugar test.

???? Min of two days between tests and a max of a week.

Plan to give it a try but will be 3-4 months till warm enough


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## Rader Sidetrack

Its difficult to believe that someone could suggest "_mineral oil_" is "organic", with a straight face.  Mineral oil is distilled from petroleum, AKA crude oil, often as a byproduct of gasoline and diesel production. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil

Simply because it may be referred to as "food grade" does not change the fact that mineral oil is manufactured from crude oil. Mineral oil may be useful to beekeepers, but it does not qualify for a reasonable definition of "organic."


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## jim lyon

The real issue in evaluating any varroa treatment isn't if the treatment kills some mites or causes a certain mite drop but rather if long term control can be achieved when compared with similar control hives where fogging is the only variable. Many basic hive manipulations, most notably smoking, will cause mites to fall off bees to some extent.


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## mac

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Simply because it may be referred to as "food grade" does not change the fact that mineral oil is manufactured from crude oil. Mineral oil may be useful to beekeepers, but it does not qualify for a reasonable definition of "organic."


 I know I agree


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## beemandan

While much of this thread has focused on fgmo, there is evidence that fogging with oxalic acid is efficacious. What also makes this study interesting is that the author describes how he determined the levels of oxalic acid that would kill mites. Some aspiring beekeeper could replicate that process for mineral oil to see at what level it killed mites….and then bees. http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=entomologydiss


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## mac

mgolden said:


> One should be able to do a test. Do a mite count with alcohol wash or icing sugar. Pick a hive with a >3% mite count.


 I think he wants a bunch of live mites in a jar and then fogg those mides and see if they die. Anyway that's how I under stood the post


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## mac

Maryland Beekeeper said:


> , I will endeavor to do so which obviously leads to the necessity to collect mites, ideas .


 Well if ya collect bees in a jar as if going to do an alcohal wash but instead fog the jar and see if any mites fall of the bees and see if it kills any bees.


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## AstroBee

I've been here long enough to recall the FGMO fourm. They were some of the most contentious posts that I've ever witnessed. Dr. Pedro did his research in Virginia Beach and Suffolk, VA, and worked with one of our most experienced local beekeepers. He also came to our club (2002?) and gave a talk on FGMO. I did buy the fogger and used it for two seasons, but didn't buy into the Thymol soaked cords. In my case, I'm really not sure if it provided any benefit, but I suspect that it must be as beneficial as powdered sugar dusting. If you're going to use the fogger with pure mineral oil for fogging without cords, then its extremely easy and fast. Some other local beekeepers are still using FGMO and claim success against varroa, but I don't believe that they have any data to back up such claims. For myself, I have no plans to fire up the fogger again. Oh, there have been reports of fire balls resulting from FGMO fogging, so this maybe something to consider. 

I will say that Dr. Pedro was a VERY nice person and really went out of his way to help beekeepers, and for that I have great respect for him. However, I don't believe that he was "cut out" to handle the structure of internet forums. The debates and attacks kind of reminded me of the animal that walked upon the fire ant nest...very painful to witness. To the credit of beesource, and to the best of my knowledge, Dr. Pedro did not get "run off" - he simply could not continue the discussions.


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## Mr.Beeman

Astro.... I'd pay for shipping of that fogger.

I would have liked to meet Dr. Pedro, seems like a knowledgeable dude.


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## GLOCK

GLOCK said:


> So who has fogged there bees and it worked?
> I seen the fat bee guy youtube using mineral oil does this work?


If you look the first post did not say any thing about treatment free.
So when your fighting about it being treatment free it realy don't have anything to do with the original post.
It was about fogging we all know what treatment free means.


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## mac

GLOCK said:


> It was about fogging we all know what treatment free means.


 No we don't. Just ask 10 beekeepers or better yet just ask 2.


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## mac

[


AstroBee said:


> I've been here long enough to recall the FGMO fourm. They were some of the most contentious posts that I've ever witnessed. I did buy the fogger and used it for two seasons, I'm really not sure if it provided any benefit. .


 Well after 2 years if ya had healthy bees in productive hives that made a bunch of honey and no signs of mite damage, it just mite have been some benefit. Here’s your sign ( that’s a joke)



AstroBee said:


> The debates and attacks kind of reminded me of the animal that walked upon the fire ant nest...very painful to witness. .


 Yes it was and if the animal was smart he would “run off”


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## johno

For Radarsidetrack, 
I guess compost is about as organic as crude oil, Think about organic chemistry all about carbon and hydrogen.
Johno


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## Rader Sidetrack

johno said:


> For Radarsidetrack, I guess compost is about as organic as crude oil, Think about organic chemistry all about carbon and hydrogen.


OK, I was wrong. Apparently there is at least _one _person that believes _mineral oil_ derived from crude oil is *organic*. Does your car run on _organic _gasoline as well?

:scratch:


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## AstroBee

mac said:


> [ Well after 2 years if ya had healthy bees in productive hives that made a bunch of honey and no signs of mite damage, it just mite have been some benefit.


I never even suggested those claims. In fact, during that time frame my bees were struggling and the FGMO did not produce a noticeable improvement. If it had I probably would have stuck with it, but again, I was using only pure mineral oil and only fogging.



mac said:


> [Yes it was and if the animal was smart he would “run off”


These issues are almost never one-sided and interactions between humans are always far more complex. Perhaps I should not have used such a simplistic comparison. I never intended to suggest that this was wholly a one-sided fight. My point was that not everyone is well-suited for internet forums.


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## johno

Once again to radar sidetrack Crude oil is organic wether you like it or not. The mineral oil used in fogging is part of the crude oil it is a parrafin straight chain hydrocarbon which is separated from the crude oil by distilation, so was always in the crude oil. Gasoline on the other hand,with the exeption of low octane straight chain gasolines, is processed throughplatinum reactors and is changed from parrafinic to aromatic molecules therefore the gasoline in my car is not strictly organic but is derived from an organic substance.
Johno


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## GLOCK

johno said:


> Once again to radar sidetrack Crude oil is organic wether you like it or not. The mineral oil used in fogging is part of the crude oil it is a parrafin straight chain hydrocarbon which is separated from the crude oil by distilation, so was always in the crude oil. Gasoline on the other hand,with the exeption of low octane straight chain gasolines, is processed throughplatinum reactors and is changed from parrafinic to aromatic molecules therefore the gasoline in my car is not strictly organic but is derived from an organic substance.
> Johno


some beekeepers know lots.
The first post said nothing about organic.


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## johno

Glock read post#107 by Radarsidetrack, after someone mentioned Fat Beeman who said he used natural methods. Now some double g and snail farmers tend to try to ridicule thr messenger if they cant refute the message
Johno


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## Rader Sidetrack

_johno_, you seem to be trying to make a point that crude oil is organic. While an _Organic Chemistry 101_ class might include material about crude oil, that is not the same meaning as the concept of food produced _organically_. At least not by any "_reasonable_" definition of organic as I said in my first post on this subject.

Very few customers purchasing "_organic food" _would find it acceptable to discover that the food they were buying was treated with crude oil.

It doesn't matter that crude oil from a chemist's viewpoint is an organic compound.



> *Organic chemistry is a subdiscipline within chemistry involving thescientific study of the structure, properties, composition, reactions, and preparation (by synthesis or by other means) of carbon-based compounds, hydrocarbons, and their derivatives.
> *
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_chemistry


If you are *marketing *honey, the word "organic", in this sense, has nothing to to with organic chemistry.


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## mac

AstroBee said:


> I never even suggested those claims.


 I know I know I did not mean to insinuate any such thing that's why I said it was a joke. Sorry
I thought the comparison was spot on. Words seem to have different meanings to different people and obviously the term “run off “has a different meaning to me than to other folks.


AstroBee said:


> My point was that not everyone is well-suited for internet forums.


 Exactly. I in no way meant that the people here intentionally “ran him off” What I THOUGHT I meant was because he couldn’t deal with peoples legitimate critique he "ran off." And I’m sure this is as clear as mud.


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## mac

GLOCK said:


> So who has fogged there bees and it worked?
> I seen the fat bee guy youtube using mineral oil does this work?


 It works for him


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## Tia

I used to fog religiously when I started beekeeping eleven (12?) years ago. I got Dr. Rodriguez' manuscript and followed directions precisely for the first two or three years. The bees seemed to work up a resistance to the varroa and I haven't treated since then! When I did fog, however, I would do so as often as every 4 days depending on the mite drops. I used FGMO specially formulated for fogging and sold by STE Oil Company (www.steoil.com. Click on "FGMO"), I used a Burgess propane (not electric) fogger that produces a nice, fine mist. I would fog through the front entrance. . .about 3 seconds until the fog started coming out at the top (cant the outer cover a bit so you know when the hive has enough FGMO fog in it). That would be it. I am lucky enough to have very little varroa problem now. . .3 to 5 mites in a 48-hr drop! The girls really keep them under control. I keep the fogger and oil handy, though. . .just in case. By the way, it works like a dream on tracheal mite as well!


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## GLOCK

38.00 for a gal 69.00 for the fogger 107.00 total great bargin if it works.
Well see i'm going to give it a year and keep good records so i'll let the forum know how things turn out.


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## jim lyon

Tia said:


> When I did fog, however, I would do so as often as every 4 days depending on the mite drops.


So would it be fair to say that your experience (based I assume on reduced mite drops)has shown a fogging lasts approximately 4 days and if so what did you estimate the residual mite numbers in the hive per 100 bees would be at after 5 or 6 consecutive foggings?


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## Maryland Beekeeper

Tia, did the fog kill the varroa or just cause them to fall off ? Did the resistance you describe developing correspond to the size of the developing colony ? How large/old are the colonies you describe as varroa resistant ? 
Cheers,
Drew


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## jmgi

I would think that whether the fog caused them to fall off (which I doubt) or the fog killed them (my choice), it shows that the fogger worked. If you are getting significant mite drop after a fogging, why do it every four days unless the hive was totally overrun with mites and on the verge of collapse to start with. Using the least number of treatments to get the mites down to manageable levels for the bees is the way I would do it. John


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## mac

jmgi said:


> If you are getting significant mite drop after a fogging, why do it every four days unless the hive was totally overrun with mites and on the verge of collapse to start with.


In the video fatbeeman says “ if you fog once a week you ain’t going to have any mites” but ya only need to do it once every 3 weeks to break the mite/ brood cycle. Not sure if he uses sbb when I did a lot of the fog came out the bottom.


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## Daniel Y

BeeCurious said:


> Daniel Y, How many more people would have needed to die for to have the decency to stop defending your ignorant posting?


I think it is disgusting when others will try to capitalize on the misery of others. Even to the point of dramatizing it and spreading outright lies about it. You seem to have an issue that I would point out this disgusting behavior. To each their own. what disgusts you only reveals your character not mine. I am sickened by a media that is politically and profit driven spewing propaganda any time they think they can wring a dime from it. You seem to think these same people need to be defended. I prefer to live with my soul thank you.


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## GLOCK

Daniel Y said:


> I think it is disgusting when others will try to capitalize on the misery of others. Even to the point of dramatizing it and spreading outright lies about it. You seem to have an issue that I would point out this disgusting behavior. To each their own. what disgusts you only reveals your character not mine. I am sickened by a media that is politically and profit driven spewing propaganda any time they think they can wring a dime from it. You seem to think these same people need to be defended. I prefer to live with my soul thank you.


FOGGING?:no:


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## Rader Sidetrack

Daniel Y said:


> I am sickened by a media that is politically and profit driven spewing propaganda any time they think they can wring a dime from it.


Why don't you simply stop watching (or listening to) the "media" you hate so much? :scratch: Or, perhaps you are doing scholarly _research _so you can enlighten us _heathens _at Beesource?


:ws:


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## Mr.Beeman

Ok girls enough is enough. Play nice or at least PM each other.
I don't mind an occasional "discussion", but when it becomes personal... it's not becoming to the rest of us beekeepers.
Or maybe I'm just speaking for myself. Either way, I'm done.


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## GLOCK

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?277102-Why-do-beekeepers-argue-so-much


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## johno

I would agree with Mr Beeman, those persons who are using this thread to make personal attacks should get back into their strollers and behave.
Johno


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## Daniel Y

Anyone else notice that both posts addressing how disruptive this stuff is. Include an insult in there comment? When you all really want a pleasant atmosphere. It will become apparent. as for now. Not.


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## mac

doc25 said:


> Apparently we acept Mineral oil as organic.


 Sooooooooo did ya really have to post the whole thing I missed the FGMO entry.


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## Daniel Y

Mac,
Mineral oil

For external use only.

The entire thing is actually several lists. But they are in alphabetical order. Oxalic Acid is in there also.


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## Stephenpbird

I posted on a FGMO Yahoo group last year and was told "Doc Rod was injuered in an auto acident a few years back and is not active with
bees any more". Maybe that explains the silence.


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