# TF or Over Wintered Queens



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Assuming an overwintered queen was overwintered with her bees (in other words she was raised early enough last year that the bees in the hive she overwintered in were hers), then you have a queen whose offspring have proven they can make it through one winter. That's a much more proven queen than one that laid a few eggs in a mating nuc...

As a Northern queen producer I can only get early queens by overwintering them. I won't have any significant number spring queens until the end of June. So if you want early queens that would be the only ones you'll find that were raised in the North.

Of course the ideal combination is northern, small cell, treatment free packages or nucs if they are on the right size frame/comb. The small cell is only an advantage if you are putting them on natural comb or small cell foundation. But if you can't get everything then this is my advice on priorities:

1) Get northern queens. Overwintered is probably better. A queen in her second year will probably do best and she's been proven to some extent. Wintering is in my experience very much a heritable characteristic and winter weeds out a lot of weak genetics.

2) It would be nice to get treatment free queens. Given a choice where I had to pick one or the other, I'd pick Northern queens over treatment free, but both is much nicer. I am not convinced that genetics is the key to the Varroa issue, but it certainly doesn't hurt to have genetics that have been surviving without treatments.

3) Small cell packages or nucs would be nice.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Why are you certain you will have no bees next spring? Have you lost all your colonies from this year? What happened to them? Losing all your colonies in one year points to a possibly significant mangement issue, which if left uncorrected will simply be repeated no matter how overwintered/TF the new bees are.

I can hardly imagine the discouragement of losing all your bees - you're a sturdier soul than I to keep on after such a set-back. 

Better luck next year!

Enj.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Over winter queens are just that - queens that have made it through a winter. Unless the producer tells you otherwise, you need to assume that medications were used as the queen producer judged appropriate. TF queens are queens that have no had any medications applied to them, and most of the time can be assumed to be the offspring of bees (at least maternally - if open mated all bets are off on the paternity) on which no treatments were used. You need to decide what is important for you to have.


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## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

Yes. I have always lost most of my colonies over the winter. I have taken every effort to properly prepare them but to no avail. I am convinced that my issue is mites. Others in my area with the same source of bees and queens treat for mites and also use an antibiotic. And they have very good survival. Since all of the proceeds from my honey go to breast cancer research I do not want ANY chemicals in my hives. Also some of my customers have various health problems. I believe the over wintered bees here are treated. I am going to try and locate some small cell nuts or treatment free queens. Would appreciate any sources.


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## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

I just learned the over wintered queens are treated. 
Thanks as I appreciate your advice.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If your losses and costs have been unacceptable every season for several seasons, you may be trapped in some management thing that doesn't work but you cannot discern what, and don't worry that happens to many people including me.

If despite best efforts this happens again next season it is time to rethink. To do that find a local successful beekeeper and do exactly what he does and use the same bees he does.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Wolf Creek Apiaries sells small cell treatment free packages. I have not ordered from them before, so I can't say anything towards the quality.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Please check your facts. Wolf Creek advertises small cell, but do not claim to be 'treatment free' (I believe they use some essential oils).

There are some who resell Wolf Creek stock and claim them to be treatment free, but these are bees that have been treated.


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

woodedareas said:


> I do not want ANY chemicals in my hives.


I felt the same way. This year is the first time I treated. I had one that I knew without treatment would fail (still might ). After reading about OAV it didn't seem bad. OA occurs naturally in foods anyway and at times at greater concentrations than what is left in the hive a few days after a treatment. I still don't like the idea of treating and will only do it if it's ABSOLUTELY necessary. If you start from scratch every year yout won't get a good honey crop ever and won't be donating much in the way of profits to cancer research (which by the way is really cool that you are doing that). Maybe stop buying bees and try swarm trapping so you at least aren't losing money on bees every year. This was our first year swarm trapping and got ten swarms out of twelve traps, others do way better. It's easy and fun. Good luck to you, I wish you the best.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

mcon672 said:


> Maybe stop buying bees and try swarm trapping so you at least aren't losing money on bees every year.


Risky. If he forgoes ordering and relies on swarm trapping he could end up with no bees for the year if his trapping luck is anything like mine. Didn't see a single swarm despite 14 baited traps out.

Wayne


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Maybe stop buying bees and try swarm trapping so you at least aren't losing money on bees every year.

Relying on bait hives for bees is like relying on fishing for supper. If you know some good spots... maybe it's not a bad bet... if not you might want to go to the store for fish...


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

With OAV you're not actually treating the bees - you're treating the mites.

I liken the situation to a person having a monkey sitting on their shoulder, which may be carrying the deadly Ebola virus. If I were to shoot that monkey dead - have I shot that person, or have I shot the monkey ?

Unlike OA dribbling, the syrup of which may actually cause bees to ingest some OA, there is no reason why any OA vapour (which reverts to a visible micro-crystalline state a second or so after leaving the equipment) should ever be consumed by a bee, as they have hairs surrounding their spiracles which prevents it's entry, and they certainly won't eat it, as it's far too bitter.

If your bees are not capable of killing varroa mites themselves, then failure to treat those mites and allowing your bees to die as a direct result, is - in my view - tantamount to killing those bees yourself.

LJ


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Whoever you shoot make sure you shoot it right otherwise nobody
will survive. Are you a good target shooter?

So the over wintered queens can be a treated queen inside a hive.
If you buy a tf queen from far far away say CA or Hi for example, can she survive your long cold winter months? 
An overwintered queen may be able to survive in your climate but her mite fighting ability might not be that good. Where as a tf queen once adapted to your local environment may be able to survive the cold winter. Since she is a tf queen the location may not have any mites there. So there is no need to treat for anything. That might not say if she can stand the mites once relocated to your hive. Why not get a tf local overwintered queen altogether? It is time to hunt for some of those queens for the next season.


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## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> 2) It would be nice to get treatment free queens. Given a choice where I had to pick one or the other, I'd pick Northern queens over treatment free, but both is much nicer. I am not convinced that genetics is the key to the Varroa issue, but it certainly doesn't hurt to have genetics that have been surviving without treatments.
> 
> 3) Small cell packages or nucs would be nice.


I also prefer "Northern" bred queens. Michael could you elaborate a little on the genetics and varroa issues? What do you believe is key? Brood breaks? Small cell?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm sure genetics plays some part but I tried all the usual and they all failed: SMR (now VSH), MN hygienic, Weaver Buckfast, Russians etc. None of them survived on large cell without treatment. Any bee survived Varroa on small cell, but still local feral stock would survive the winter and winter is a bigger issue in recent years.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So how north is the norther queen raised from?
Is NY consider in that northern region?


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

By "northern queens" I think north of Mason-Dixon line would be a good way to put it. 
If extended, that line would run along I-70 in my part of the world. That makes me a Yankee and my bees too. 100 miles north of I-70.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The point is that you want bees that can survive the kind of winters you have. If your winters are about what winters are in NY I would consider them northern... if your winters are much worse, then I would look for queens from further north if you can. But sometimes you settle for what you can get. New York is certainly more "northern" than Georgia or Florida...


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So what defines a northern queen by the individual states?
You can define it by the lines and boundary but the ones who are not
local may not know. So I would say MT, WI and all the states around NY
up north are consider the northern states that their queens are qualify as northern raised
queens. Am I correct? Then what about the PNW? Which states are those? Maybe WA and ?


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## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Thanks Michael...and for the record the last 2 winters in Upstate NY have been brutal. I run Mann Lake Pf deeps and foundationless in 2 deep brood boxes. As time goes on more and more foundationless...mostly because I am cheap. I have measured cell size on worker brood, and have yet to get 4.9 on anything unless it was drawn on the pf frames. Time will tell if my bees will regress themselves...I add some new genetics every year, and have enough drawn comb to checker board with, I doubt I will buy any more pf frames. I dislike the constant burr comb on those plastic frames.


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

Wolf Creek advertises small cell, but do not claim to be 'treatment free'(I believe they use some essential oils).

They state that they do use essential oils. 

What are essential oils? Sounds like a better solution then chemical treating. I'm a first year BK and I'm determined to be TF.

They also call for the use of foundation. "When bees are allowed to draw their own comb, they will sometimes have cells of various sizes and will produce a greater number of drones.Therefore we encourage the use of foundation so the cells they draw would be workers."

So does one mix foundation-less frames with a Mann Lake 120 frame to start a new hive?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

AAIndigo said:


> What are essential oils? Sounds like a better solution then chemical treating.


It is chemical treating. It's interesting the psychology, just because the source is viewed positively, it "sounds like" what they do is better than chemical treating, even though it is chemical treating.

Essential oils are oils extracted from plants, normally for their strong scent, they are used in perfumes, food flavorings, etc. Because at high strength they can be toxic, certain of them can be used to kill varroa mites, thymol (extracted from thyme) is a popular example.


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