# Judging a Queen's Laying Ability



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Recently I mentioned on another thread that one should look at the open brood to judge how a queen is laying. I thought a few photos might show what I mean. 

Notice in the first photo that the comb is well filled and that larvae in adjacent cells are of similar age...or nearly so. They are oldest in the center circle and progress from oldest larvae to youngest larvae to eggs evenly.










That open brood pattern leads to this...










And the sealed brood begins emerging in the center of the comb where the oldest larvae were...










And that queen...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nice series of photos and captions Michael.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

What you don't want to see is a larval pattern scattered across the comb...old larvae, young larvae, empty cells, sealed brood, eggs...in random order. Like this...










Leading to a sealed brood pattern like this...










The sealed brood pattern is effected by things other than the queen. Hygienic bees cleaning up chalk or pms will also cause a shotgun brood pattern.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

nice pics mp! beautiful pattern, healthy bees.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

what would you do if you found the shotgun pattern in one of your hives?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Depends on the time of year. In the spring I would requeen with an overwintered nuc or a queen from an overwintered mating nuc. In June I would requeen with a queen recently mated in my mating yard. In July I might nuc the hive and make nucleus colonies for wintering. After July I would either requeen, or if I had no more queens to catch...requeen it with an emergency nuc.

An emergency nuc is one of a group started at the end of the summer nuc making season to be used for requeening earlier made nucs that for whatever reason aren't making it.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

so bottom line is that queen has to go, right?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Right. No use keeping deficite bees and queens.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Michael, once the erratic pattern develops is it self perpetuating until something breaks the brood cycle so the queen can start with a clean slate instead of hither and yon? We had at least one hive doing something similar along with getting a bit nectar bound. We swapped in some undrawn wax foundation frames plus took off excluders and things straightened out. Can it be sometimes a bad pattern is circumstance and not a ditsy queen?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I would say you're correct. Other things do effect the queens ability to lay. If brood on a comb is emerging randomly across the comb...where else can the queen lay but in the vacated cells...which are located randomly across the comb. Good point.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Michael, you could not ask for a better brood pattern or queen that laid it. I also notice that the queen laid in a nice, tight, clockwise, concentric pattern. Not hardly any misses at all. That is the sign of a well mated queen. TED


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Thanks Ted. I of course picked a perfect one to photograph, but I wanted to show what perfect was so folks could use the photos for comparison.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Great presentation MP, and an excellent example of a picture being worth a thousand words. Point of emphasis though is that a very "spotty" brood pattern to a newbie not quite sure what he or she is looking for could be a sign of varroa or a brood disease such as chalk brood, or AFB. Remember AFB will not be cured by requeening. The most important lesson here, though, is to replace a failing queen.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

So, how do you tell if the poor laying pattern is caused by a poor queen or hygenic behavior of the workers?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

If the open brood pattern is solid and the sealed brood pattern is shotgun, there's something going on.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Throughout July-August I was plagued with drought/dearth/chronic robbing - and some very spotty brood patterns. Feeding was problematical, and small/nuc hives were especially at risk. 

Also, in some mating nucs where queens started laying when there was still emerging, brood patterns initially looked quite bad. Then I started feeding every hive in my yard, those young queens got in a groove, and now I am seeing this in most (almost all) of them that I was worried about:









I agree that you are correct, but would warn people not to jump to conclusions until you eliminate the other factors that can cause spotty patterns.

However, now that I've been feeding and there has been a bit of a fall flow for a few weeks, any queens that aren't looking good at this point are getting the axe, and their hives shall be assimilated. Time to stop coddling the slackers.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

That's certainly an outstanding brood pattern, and as noted it tends to perpetuate itself. The queen, with abdomen longer than the wings, looks like a dandy. Well done, Mike. But..

Locally, the perpetuity breaks down during the spring season with the increased brood volume of checkerboarding. By main flow the brood age on any comb is a patchwork of brood of different ages. It's not the consistant scattershot shown, but is sometimes a palm-sized patch of eggs, larvae, or capped scattered at random across the comb face. It's still a solid brood pattern, but there is an age differential between the patches. We feel that the increased brood volume causes the laying of eggs to be on a time-available basis, as the brood volume increases.
Walt


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Locally, bees do it every way. There is wide variation in performance of queens and honeybee colonies. While some queens may fill brood combs by laying here and there and everywhere, some maintain a good pattern over a large number of combs through the season.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I went through about 20 hives today to assess where they are to get ready for winter. One of my late summer queens has one of the best patterns I've ever seen on several frames, and on others it was quite spotty with a mixture of capped brood, eggs and larva at all stages of development - same queen, same hive, same day. It *is* a very young queen though, so the mixed brood may be on the first frames that she layed. It's just not all that cut and dried is it?


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## toekneepea (Jul 7, 2010)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> I also notice that the queen laid in a nice, tight, clockwise, concentric pattern... TED





Michael Palmer said:


> Locally, bees do it every way. There is wide variation in performance of queens and honeybee colonies.


Perhaps a silly question, but do bees in the Southern Hemisphere lay in a counter-clockwise pattern... due to the Coriolis effect (Seen in water draining in the sink, tub, etc.)? Or do queens lay in whatever direction they want?

Tony P.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

David LaFerney said:


> It's just not all that cut and dried is it?


Nope, it's not.


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

Will young queens from supersedure lay in a spotty pattern to start with?

Installed package superseded their queen, she was runny for several days and now she has slowed down on the comb.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

rail, thanks for reviving this thread, it's a good one.

i think most would say that it takes a little time for a new queen to get the hang of it and start laying a good pattern.

for those who raise a lot of queens, is there a certain time frame after mating that you like to take a look and make a judgement on a new queen's laying ability?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> rail, thanks for reviving this thread, it's a good one.
> 
> i think most would say that it takes a little time for a new queen to get the hang of it and start laying a good pattern.
> 
> for those who raise a lot of queens, is there a certain time frame after mating that you like to take a look and make a judgement on a new queen's laying ability?


Its nice to let them lay for at least a week, preferably two (that can't happen with small mating nucs) to really make a determination of egg laying ability. It's true there are always a few who go through what I think of as a learning curve in egg laying but I always look at those with great suspicion. It's not unusual to see a low single digit percentage of queens that lay viable eggs but never in a nice pattern or large quantities. I assume they are just poorly mated queens and they will struggle along for a few months and eventually fail. If, like the great majority, they start strong they almost always will result in large hives within 6 to 8 weeks.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks jim. as a practical matter then, if after a couple of weeks you do see prolific laying in a good pattern do you consider culling that queen?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

My experience is after a few weeks they pretty much are what they are. Those with poor patterns we either kill the queen and do a paper combine at that point or else shake them out and double them up depending on how much time you want to spend.


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