# why wire frames?



## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

I wire all my frames for added strength and support, especially when the comb is new and soft. I wire both deeps and meds and both foundation and foundationless.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

There are two good reasons and you answered one of them your self.
They are wired so that the foundation can be embedded to the wire and you do want straight combs for hive manipulations.
You will eventually with time have the experience of pulling up a comb that the bees built natural comb that includes 2 or more frames and that will be an eventful experience including the stings that can go with the situation!
The ABC & XYZ of Beekeeping has about 8 diagrames of frame wiring including the V method + the traditional horizontal wires. It was used by many old timers because sage honey is one of the thickest honeys to extract plus the frames would hold up better when transported on the "old" roads.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Wiring frames was invented to keep foundation from sagging until it was drawn. No other reason. Now people seem to think it has to do with extracting... I don't wire and I extract, but I also run mediums and no foundation so it won't sag...

http://bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#dowire


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Humm,
Which was invented first, wiring of frames or extracting?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I use all medium frames. Most frames where I don't use plastic foundation I run foundationless. For several years now I've noticed that the bees sometimes fail to attach the combs to their bottom bars, and those would frequently develop problems if handled on one of our usual warm (hot) days. Those with horizontal wires had fewer attachment failure problems. Now I try to install horizontal wires in all foundation or foundationless frames.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When things are invented and when they come into common usage are two different things. Wiring came into common usage before extracting came into common usage judging by the old ABC-XYZ of Bee-Culture books (And ABC of Bee-Culture). I don't have a exact date on wiring but here's a time-line of foundation and extracting which shows the lag between "invention" and "common usage".

1857 Wax-comb foundation invented by Johannes Mehring. It does not come into common usage.

1865 centrifugal honey extractor invented by Major Hruschka. It does not come into common usage.

1868 foundation was reported in the American Bee Journal. People in US are getting interested.

1873 Wax-comb foundation re-invented by Frederic Weiss. It does not come into common usage

1876 A. I. Root hired a man by the name of A. Washburn to mill a foundation press. It is now commonly available, but still is not in common usage.

By the late 1880s foundation is in usage but at a smaller rate than foundationless and starter strips. 

Foundation manufacturers propagandize for foundation mostly selling the idea of no drones.

1880's H.O. Peabody begins manufacturing extractors and foundation comes into more common use.

The popularity of foundation waxes (no pun intended) and wanes with the economy. When people have money they are more likely to buy it. When they do 
not, they are more likely to get by without it.

By the 1970's foundation is in more common usage. Extracting has become the 
norm for big outfits, and comb honey had fallen into obscurity, but most hobbyist are still doing crush and strain or comb honey. Foundationless and starter strips still being used by a minority but a large enough minority that it is still being propagandized against by the bee magazines and books, published, of course, by those making foundation.

2000's foundation is still in common usage. Foundationless and starter strips still being used by many and still being propagandized against by the bee magazines and books, published, of course, by those making foundation. The cell size debate and the contamination of the wax supply draws many into foundationless beekeeping.


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

I've never wired. I have some frames with embedded wire foundation, and some foundationless. I've extracted both. The foundationless has to be handled with a bit more care, especially in the first year.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

W. Z. Hutchinson, a prominent Michigan beekeeper of the 1870/1900's, was against the use of foundation on the grounds it was not cost effective. By the 1890's he had recondidered his position and stated that the use of foundation was of great benefit to the beekeeper. He stated "Perfect brood combs we must have" and that using foundation gave the beekeepers a better chance to have those combs. He said that using foundation gave the beekeepers a better chance of having straight combs of worker sized cells that were able to be placed anywhere in the hive. He said that "for the greater mass of beekeepers, foundation in the supers is used at a profit."

It is much easier to have a medium frame drawn straight and have the edges joined to the frame than to have a deep one. If you shake a deep frame that is unwired new comb to remove the bees there is the chance of breaking the comb. When extracting there is the chance of a "blow out." 

In the older issues of the ABC's,XYZ's one of the reasons given for wiring frames was that during periods of high temps unsupported new comb would sag under the weight of the honey and distort the cells in the upper portion of the comb making it unsuitable for brood. It was stated that by wiring and preventing stretching the beekeeper could increase worker sized sells by 10 to 20%.

As for which came first wiring or extracting, probably wiring since foundation came first and they would have wanted it to stay straight in the frame. Even if there were no extractors we would want frames of comb in the brood nest that are the best obtainable, straight and all worker cells. Without good comb in the brood nest a colony will not build the populations it needs to gather the maximum honey crop.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm new at this, but was told that unwired frames were more likely to break up during extraction. Therefore I use wired foundation, and cross-wire only the frames that will go in the extractor (shallows). The brood frames are deeps, and I put the foundation in with pins. Cheap bobby pins.


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## JRH (Dec 30, 2010)

If you want to "wire" your frames, you should really be doing it with monofilament fishing line. Try 15# test. It's easier and faster to do. It works better than wire because the mono goes on BOTH sides of the foundation - and it's thicker than the wire. See the FatBeeMan's video on this on Youtube.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

JRH,
I wire my frames, but don't use foundation.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Joseph, when the bees build around the wire does it screw up their pattern or do they nicely use it as reinforcement. How critical is having hive level. What kind of a wiring pattern do you install. Next season I would like to try this idea and should by then have a fair supply of drawn comb frames the girls have knitted this summer.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

I like the methods shown by FatBeeMan, both for frame construction and for wiring. Will try that next time. I already use an air-stapler, but I don't use glue. Instead I put in a short staple at each joint from the side. They ain't goin' NOwhere.


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

This is my 1st year. I don't like honey, and didn't set up for extraction. I used foundation to start, then I will checkerboard the rest foundationless. I modified my frames to make them foundationless because I didn't know of kelleybees.

Has anyone used flat foundation in the supers? It would cost $20 to $60 to start making it, and almost nothing to continue making it. You dip a damp paddle in wax, and cut the sheet that forms.
Does waxing the wire (or skewers) do anything?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Has anyone used flat foundation in the supers?

Yes. It's work. It slows the bees down.

>Does waxing the wire (or skewers) do anything? 

It will make them more likely to cover them in comb instead of avoiding them at first. But they will cover them anyway eventually and then you didn't have to wax them...


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

I'm new, but basic physics tells me that keeping the hive level is essential, and most important in the side to side axis. Bees form a plumb bob.


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >Does waxing the wire (or skewers) do anything?
> 
> It will make them more likely to cover them in comb instead of avoiding them at first. But they will cover them anyway eventually and then you didn't have to wax them...


A knowledgeable dude at my club said he uses foundation so he can use wire and extract. I asked if he tried checkerboarding foundationless between capped comb. He said he did, and the bees built around the wire. Could he have broken a basic rule (such as "keep things level")?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>He said he did, and the bees built around the wire. Could he have broken a basic rule (such as "keep things level")? 

Not sure what "built around the wire" means. You mean they skipped the wire? They will at first, but if it's right in the middle (which it will be if it's level) they will incorporate it in the comb.


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

JRH said:


> If you want to "wire" your frames, you should really be doing it with monofilament fishing line. Try 15# test. It's easier and faster to do. It works better than wire because the mono goes on BOTH sides of the foundation - and it's thicker than the wire. See the FatBeeMan's video on this on Youtube.


DoH..............Thanks for this. I want to wire as I have found it useful even though I am still crushing and straining. It would be so easy to "fish" (bad pun intended) the wire out if it was monofilament, and much easier to tighten. I was thinking about ordering some violin pegs for my frames. LOL


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

You can try the monofilament but I have seen posts about the bees nipping the thin stuff. Some have recommended 50# test. I tried a bit and did not find it as easy to work with as wire. It is easy to nip if you are cutting out queen cells though. I just like the look and twang of a nicely wired frame.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Several times now, I've even caught the bees starting their combs, on the wires only, and in several places, then building both, up, down, and side to side, in order to completely fill the frames with comb. They also completely embed the wires into the comb, as its being made.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

I started wiring frames this year because of the warping issues that I was seeing. When extracting, I noted that any combs that blew out were warped when they went into the extractor. Not all warped comb did this, and the effect was greater when extracting tangentially. (My extractor does deeps tangentially, mediums radially). By the time I was done extracting I had figured out how to avoid blowouts.

But, the main reason I started wiring had to do with being able to move comb around. I was getting tired of having to undertake the equivalent of solving a Rubik's cube, but with frames. Wiring is a step I took in getting better at comb management.


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## gjt (Jul 24, 2014)

I have yet to see a skep where there was no thin rod in the middle to support comb. I have also seen in many occasions where bee gums (vertical log hives) had thin rods inserted to provide support to sometimes several meter long, hanging combs.

In Asia I seen "frames which looked sort of like forks with vertical "tines" only; no bottom for the "frame".

So, I think maybe it is now wire for convenience, but the idea to provide support for comb is not new. It was ported to the movable frames with their development.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I learned this year that foundationless frames without wire can get hot enough inside a hive, when stuck to the side of the box with comb or propolis that the comb pulls loose and falls off when the frames are removed from the hive..... at least in Alabama.


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