# ideal room set up for grafting and brood comb manipulation



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

There is a fair amount of information on the mechanics of grafting.

I am wondering 

1. What the ideal set up for grafting would be to not stress the tiny larvae?

2. What precautions do people take to protect the frame of brood and grafted larvae during prep, during grafting and transferring to a cell builder?

3. How long can a brood frame be out of the hive in decent conditions before its not worth grafting from?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

The place needs to be warm so as to not chill the larva, but other than that the main thing is to minimize the time that they spend out of the hive as much as possible. So, you need good light and everything handy so that you can go as fast as possible - because if you are like me that is still pretty slow. Inside your car/truck, parked at your bee yard works.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

There is a nice peek into a serious queen room, you'll see a photo, in Dr. Harry H. Laidlaw's book, Contemporary Queen Rearing.

It's not a grafting setup, but there are hives with window exits to the outside.

I think it is in another book by Laidlaw and Dr. John Eckert, Queen Rearing, a photo of a nice lighted grafting bench.


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

Once you've seen it, it is very simple. Try this DVD: “Successful queen rearing” by Marla Spivak and Gary Reuter. Very encouraging.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

lharder said:


> 1. What the ideal set up for grafting would be to not stress the tiny larvae?
> 
> 2. What precautions do people take to protect the frame of brood and grafted larvae during prep, during grafting and transferring to a cell builder?
> 
> 3. How long can a brood frame be out of the hive in decent conditions before its not worth grafting from?


1. The larvae are a lot tougher than most realize. Graft at your kitchen table, in the bee yard, in your truck...

2. The critical thing to consider is humidity. Keep them moist by using a damp paper towel. Temp is not very critical, too hot is far worse than too cool.

3. Hours, as long as they are kept moist. Shorter is best, but those little larvae are amazingly tough.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Much gratitude for all the info. Its really helpful to get a sense of the parameters of the operation. For me the question is where are the errors taking place. Is it because I'm taking too long is it grafting technique, or is it cell builder set up. Lots of room for error. 

I was contemplating the greenhouse as light is so good and I have a bench set up. But maybe its too warm. Sounds like the kitchen table in a warm house would be better. 

From the time you take a frame out to graft from, to the time you put the grafts in a cell builder, how long does it take if everything goes smoothly? If things don't go as smooth, at what point should one get nervous about quality and do a do over. Are there weather conditions where one would just put it off for another day because its too hot or cold? Are there any concerns about shaking bees off the frame you are grafting from?


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

lharder said:


> I was contemplating the greenhouse as light is so good and I have a bench set up. But maybe its too warm. Sounds like the kitchen table in a warm house would be better.
> 
> From the time you take a frame out to graft from, to the time you put the grafts in a cell builder, how long does it take if everything goes smoothly? If things don't go as smooth, at what point should one get nervous about quality and do a do over.


Probably what works best for one may not be best for another. I find a very dimly lit room with a spot light coming over my left shoulder works best for me. My eyes are somewhat dark adapted and the light gets clear to the bottom of the cell so I can see the larva clearly. I do not think I could graft at all in a well lighted place.

Taking a hour or two to graft is no big deal. That amount of time will not hurt the larva a bit. But, you do have to keep the open larva in the frame you are grafting from and all grafted larva from drying out no matter how fast you are. I use a plastic water bottle with a sprayer on top and mist the frame I am grafting from lightly anytime I feel it may be drying too much. Just plain old room temp tap water. I will give cells I am grafting from an extra mist as it is easier to pick up moist larva. Do not mist too much or the larva will be floating and you can pick them up ok but will not get any jelly with them. Such larva work ok but I prefer to have a bit of jelly with them, but do not have any good reason for that preference. Grafted JZBZ cups get covered with a wet paper towel immediately after grafted and remain covered until they go into the cell builder. I have pulled frames I grafted from the next day that had been out over 1/2 hour to check for dead brood. I have never seen any evidence at all that it killed a single larva.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I get right to it. I pull the frame out of the breeder, and its in my kitchen on a grafting bench in a matter of minutes. As others pointed out they are fairly tough, but I find little need to keep them out of the hive very long. All of my breeder queens and cell builders are located at my house, steps away from where I graft. As Richard mentioned, while I'm grafting into JZBZ cells, I use a moist paper towel to keep them covered as I'm grafting more.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I've never found the moist towel necessary. I also am in the 'as fast as possible' camp. I pull a frame, shake and brush bees off as I walk to the house, graft on the kitchen table (I rarely graft more than 15 or 20 at a time), grafts into cellbulder, then frame back in hive. Usually not more than 5 or 6 minutes soup to nuts.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Also, I usually use randy oliver's technique of putting the frame that you are grafting from into the cell builder for at least a few hours ...gets lots of food in the cells, and (at least it feels like it) primes the builder for the grafts.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Thanks again, so it looks like the larvae (frame of brood) can put up with some ineptitude on my part for up to an hour with the help of damp paper towel and/or a mister, but it would be better to get it down to 15 minutes range or so. 

I'm not going to rely on my grafting incompetence this year, but after I raise a few queens using snelgrove splits, I'm going to take this on in a more serious way and see if I can get some good cells raised.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Several of my friends have tried grafting and decided it was difficult to get consistently well-mated queens, so they are now using Nicot or Jenter methods.

I graft because it is quick, but it is all in the setup. I set up the tent the day before Grafting Day (Grafting Day = Day 11 if you're using Michael Palmer / Brother Adam's method, so this occurs on Day 10). I put the Queen Cell Cup frame into the Cell Builder hive for polishing

I put a chair, a folding table, the clipboard, a pen, a light, a knife, a bucket, a spray bottle, a towel, a selection of grafting tools, and my 7X magnifying loupe, all into the tent. I do a dry run as if I'm actually grafting.

7 AM Day 11, I rearrange the hive into Cell Builder mode. Swing the queenright section off, place a new deep on the floor, open honey in the bottom box, CB in the middle, honey boxes on top.Make sure there are no QC's, add the frame of super fresh pollen, leave the space for the grafts. MP tells you, "..., now go do something else", allowing the bees to be queenless for several hours.

I'll get an early lunch, then at about 2:45 in the afternoon, I go fill the 5-gallon bucket with hot water, ice it down to 95 degrees F, and haul it to the tent. I soak the towel. I fill the spray bottle with water from the bucket, and leave it submerged in the bucket ready for use.

I go get the Pritchard box (a queen excluder-sided box with 3 newly-drawn combs that the Breeder Queen has been laying in since 7 AM on Day 8 - oldest larvae are 80 hours since egg-lay) place it into an empty nuc', and carry it over to the tent. I step into the tent, unzip the veil, put on the loupe, and zip the veil shut. I step out, select the comb that has the best looking larvae, brush the bees off, and go inside the tent, zip it closed.

I usually get 2 or 3 bees inside with me, so I just make sure none is a queen, and swat them. Then I unzip the veil.

At 3 PM, or shortly after, I wring out the towel, cut the grafting comb down about 1/2 depth with the knife (Oldtimer's idea) and begin grafting. I spray the cell cups with warm water, graft one bar (the top one), spraying and covering each graft as I go with the warm, moist towel, zip the veil back on, and go drop the frame into the Cell Builder box. 

I go back in, take the veil off, and graft another bar, zip the veil back on, and go attach the second bar to the queen cell cup frame, and drop it back into the CB. 

Each cell cup bar takes less than 5 minutes. I go put the grafting frame back into the Pritchard box, and the Pritchard box back into the Breeder Queen's hive.

I leave the tent up just in case the take is low. That way I can graft the next day. This process can be repeated with several grafting frames from several Breeder Queens in a few hours, filling however many Cell Builder colonies you can run with 1 or 2 frames each, depending on colony strength. 

If you have plenty of colonies, enough that you are grafting every 4 or 5 days, you could just leave the tent up for the rest of queen rearing season.

Try setting up your area, and do a dry run. You'll figure out a good layout and schedule.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

A really descriptive post of the process kilocharlie. Gives an excellent feel for the flow of things on grafting day. 

I will have to do some research on the Pritchard box.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

If you can get a peek at Queen Rearing and Be Breeding by Laidlaw and Page - out of print last I heard - it has a section discussing it and a photo.

A lot of people use Oldtimer's idea of a bent QE to cover the side and the bottom, and another QE to cover the top. Just move the whole hive to the tent for grafting. The portable Pritchard box I made is just a convenient way to move a breeder queen and a few combs to the grafting tent without moving her whole colony.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

The perfect temp. for bee brood is hot to me. 92 degrees or there about. Your greenhouse might be perfect. Temp. and humidity. 

Alex


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## Zadee's Beek (Dec 14, 2015)

I believe the book kilocharlie referred to, Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding, may be purchased here: http://wicwas.com/Queen_Rearing_and_Bee_Breeding


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