# Top bar nuc and queen breeding?



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

ShannaRose said:


> So I know TBH's are not nearly as common as Langs, which is why all the info on mating nucs and queen raising is done with Langs.
> 
> Shanna Rose


 That is not necessarily why most queen rearing is done in langstroth. The reason top bar hives are not as common as lang hives is because although cheeper to build they are not as practical for production. If grafting only a single row of queen cups can be placed on the bar whereas the frame of a lang can hold 3 rows. the manipulation required in cell builder/starter/finisher hives is simpler and more convenient in the lang style. Using a top bar to raise a few queens is one thing. using it to produce large numbers of queens and nucs is another. I do not know much about dump trucks, and it is fine to haul a load of gravel in my pickup truck for my yard. But I would not consider running a paving operation with it. I think I would learn about dump trucks instead. If you get my drift.


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## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

It depends on what you are planning on doing and how many nucs you are going to sell. me? I would like to see 100-150 overwintered nucs sold per year. People generally dont buy TBH nucs if they run langs, even though they could just do it like a cutout. This makes it impractical for me to TBH nucs. Would I sell a TBH nuc? yeah, if I had a customer want one and put down about a 30-40% down payment, and maybe an additional fee if I had to do some cutting. 

That said.... Sam Comfort does do TBH nucs, packages, and raises queens in TBH. He does this for economical reasons. Me, I've gone with horizontal langs for convenience as I can pull brood and honey and swap around without worrying about it being slightly off.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

What's the different between honey from TF Langs and TF Top Bar Hives. Except that you slapped a "organic" in front of it? Organic honey is pretty much impossible because you don't know what your bees are foraging on. They are foraging on the same stuff and treated the same way. The shape of the box is different...


Sovek, how long do you anticipate before you get to the point of being able to sell 100-150 overwintered nucs per year?


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

We sell top bar nucs hand over fist at a premium price with local (BeeWeaver) queens or Hawaiian imports from a small breeder. I find 30 or 40 nucs come pretty easy. I'm still doing this part-time so we didn't have time to get into grafting this year (and it was a miserably wet spring) or push out more nucs.

Grafting into cups in a top bar can use multiple bars - one hangs under the other on wire (there is likely an illustration in Les Crowder's book where he uses 2 extra bars hanging under the primary). We use 8 frame TBH nucs as "growers" - and mating nucs when needed. 

Lots of competition on the Big Island for queen rearing, you might find using one of them to increase your hive count works well with your plan. And selling nucs with queens from a breeder with a good reputaion works well for you until you get the confidence to raise your own. 

Conventional queen rearing was written for Langs. Spaghetti was intended to be eaten with a fork but a friend's father uses chopsticks. The utensils may be different but the recipe remains the same.

Pomaika`i


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## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

jwcarlson;1291371Sovek said:


> That depends on a number of factors, namely the market, can I get someone like BeeWell to let me put up flyers/handouts of overwintered nucs, am I gonna have to go through a Beekeepers association, ect. Another factor is how well I get through this year. If even 4 nucs get through winter and I split 3 ways every two months or so with laying queens, production of nucs isnt the problem. I think the major hurdle I'm going to have is marketing.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Sovek said:


> That depends on a number of factors, namely the market. I think the major hurdle I'm going to have is marketing.


I wish you the best of luck. If you think marketing is going to be your issue in going from two existing first year packages to selling 100-150 nucs anytime soon AND having the support colonies to sustain... you've got another thing coming. "Production of nucs isn't the problem." Have you overwintered a colony yet? Serious question.

Are you planning on making a huge purchase of bees and equipment? 100 nucs is a lot of boxes, bottoms, lids, frames, etc. I think it was you that had a package sitting waiting for install while you were still assembling the hive? :/ 



Regarding the OP, Les Crowder's book about top bar beekeeping has some good drawings about queen rearing. Truthfully, though, the methods don't really "care" what shape of box your bees are in... it's about a very strong, queenless hive and the right conditions to raise quality queens.


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## ShannaRose (Feb 10, 2015)

Except that you slapped a "organic" in front of it? Organic honey is pretty much impossible because you don't know what your bees are foraging on. They are foraging on the same stuff and treated the same way. 

~Sorry, I wasn't referring to the honey, but inaccurately to the "treatment free" way that the bees are raised. An organically managed hive is not the same as organic honey, I understand.


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## ShannaRose (Feb 10, 2015)

ChuckReburn said:


> We sell top bar nucs hand over fist at a premium price with local (BeeWeaver) queens or Hawaiian imports from a small breeder. I find 30 or 40 nucs come pretty easy. I'm still doing this part-time so we didn't have time to get into grafting this year (and it was a miserably wet spring) or push out more nucs.
> 
> Grafting into cups in a top bar can use multiple bars - one hangs under the other on wire (there is likely an illustration in Les Crowder's book where he uses 2 extra bars hanging under the primary). We use 8 frame TBH nucs as "growers" - and mating nucs when needed.
> 
> ...


I like the idea of selling nucs with queens from a reputable breeder until I'm much further along in my learning curve- thanks for that suggestion. Glad to know you sell top bar nucs hand over fist!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Are topbar hives standardized in Hawaii and Texas so that the nucs fit other folks boxes?


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

odfrank said:


> Are topbar hives standardized in Hawaii and Texas so that the nucs fit other folks boxes?


The Chandler style with 17 inch bars is widely adopted, several local manufacturers and a number of national sources that offer shipping are compatible. Occasionally a little trimming is necessary but it's not much. If I've got someone who wants 19 inch bars, I can grow them too.

If I've got someone that wants to build their own, we offer plans or assistance. 

I wouldn't call them standardized but "close enough to work most of the time."


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