# How many times can I treat with Oxalic Acid per year without hurting the bees?



## beeware10

depending on the mite load why would you treat anymore than necessary? randy olivers site has best real info.


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## soarwitheagles

beeware10 said:


> depending on the mite load why would you treat anymore than necessary? randy olivers site has best real info.


Thank you for your reply Beeware!

Why would I treat anymore?

We treated with Apivar in August for 42 days. At times we counted 300-400 dead mites per day per hive.

Still keep seeing substantial numbers of mites on the SBB on one hive. 

I zapped that hive with 4 treatments of vaporized Ox Acid, 5-7 days apart. Still counting 80-200 mites on the SBB at times, only from that one hive...

I have read, reread, reread again, and finally reread once more all of Randy's articles on mites and OX acid treatments. I have also read myriads of other authors on the Ox acid vaporization methods and studies.

From what I have read, the vaporization method appears to be the most effective method and safest method [for the bees].

I have read how some beekeepers treated for a full 8 weeks, but Randy's efficiency chart shows a leveling off of efficiency [90%] by the 5th week.

I would like to continue to vaporize on this one hive once a week until I see a drop in the dead mite numbers. Just wondering if it is safe. Our other hive [#2] has only 2-8 mites that drop on the SBB per week.

Last night I dressed up in my Mite Killer Halloween Outfit [similar to the Batman outfit found at Walmart but without the tights] and vaporized the dastardly varroa bee enemies exactly at midnight [it was a sneak attack]. This morning at 9 am there were 100+ dead mites on the SBB of hive #1

All the articles I read said vaporization is safe for the bees, but they did mention I must be very careful to not breath in the vapors.

I would like to vaporize weekly for 2 months if it is not detrimental to the bees...

PS I suppose it is safe to say I have begun to develop a very healthy aversion and hatred for these ugly mites. The more I read about what they are, how they operate, and the results of being left untreated, I began to be radically transformed into a Psychopathic Mite Killing Rambo, that utterly delights in the demise of the Varroa Mite located in the Gotham city called my backyard...


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## VolBee

Kill 'em all. If it is not hurting God's most amazing insect ( everything I read, says it does not) then I have been thinking the same thing. Kill every week, kill every single one. Send them to Verroa Hell.


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## beepro

Soar, I have been experimenting on my stationary expanded coverage
oav gadget. My hives are mite free now going into the Fall and winter.
A few things I like to share with you are the hive number in question that got the
treatment and the timing of the treatment.
You see when the mites are capped with the broods the oav is not going to
kill them. Oav is design to kill off the free running mites only at the time when the bees hatche dout. After the bees emerged then it is the time to treat since all the free running mites are hatched out also. So the timing is about every 21 days
when the bees hatched. Some bees will emerge earlier while others are a bit late.
Either way when your vaporizer does not has the expanded coverage then treating the
2 deep versus a single deep is not that effective. My expanded coverage oav gadget can treat the 2 deep without any issue. So as long as the bees on top still have the free running mites on them you still continue to see them. My only concern is whether or not your oav unit can treat the 2 deeps or more?
As far as how often to treat? You can experiment it up to 5 weeks at every weekend to see the result. Because of the expanded capability gadget I have I only treated them 2 times to get rid of all the mites. Every hatch is healthy now since the end of August. Maybe I should fire up the gadget again to see if anymore mites are in there.


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## enjambres

@Soar:

You wrote:



> but they did mention I must be very careful to not breath in the vapors.


I do hope that the above does not mean that you are merely trying not to breathe the vapors! You know you should be wearing the recommended respirator fitted with "acid gas" cartridges, right? Get a properly fitted respirator, and check the seal every time you put it on.


@Beepro:

I am baffled by your reasoning about the frequency of the treatments.

You wrote:



> Oav is design to kill off the free running mites only at the time when the bees hatche dout. After the bees emerged then it is the time to treat since all the free running mites are hatched out also. So the timing is about every 21 days
> when the bees hatched.


While I certainly agree that OAV only affects the phoretic-stage mite, it's a bit more complicated than that because:

1) Larvae are capped every day, and adults hatch out every day. It's not like there are fixed 21-day cycles where an entire generation of brood all starts at once;

2) The capped-in stage of the bee pupal cycle is only about 14 days (a bit longer for the boys) and adult mites only slip into the cells a few hours before the capping starts (sneaky little vermin!). 

3) So if the egg-laying was assumed to be the same amount every day, 1/14th of the total number of bee pupae are capped each day and 1/14th emerge from the cells, along with the foundress mite and (on average) 1.8 of her mature daughter mites to augment the mite population.

If you're treating on 21-day bee brood intervals I think that's too far apart to be effective.

I am currently fussing at the math behind the most recently recommended treatment series. Right now, it's 3 treatments on 7-day intervals, or once a week. It formerly (as recently as six months ago) was 4 treatments on five day intervals. According to my figuring, neither really cuts it when you have an expanding bee brood population. The math is complicated, so right now I'm trying to nail down the assumptions about OAV efficacy, mite life cycles, etc., to work out a formula of my own. I'll tackle the math when I have a better handle on the underlying factors. It's on my list for a winter project.

FWIW, at the moment I am running a series in my yard atseven-day intervals. My bees are shutting down brood early (not as a result of OAV - there's some other factor at play) so I may not have to do any more than the three treatments, but I will do a fourth one if I don't see a really substantial stop to the mite drops.

Mite drops within three to five days after treatment are the results of treatment, not the level of mites in the hive. Change your boards out and catch the last two or three days of unforced mite drop to gauge the actual level before you treat again. (Or if it's still warm enough where you are, you could sugar roll.)

Enj.


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## soarwitheagles

beepro said:


> Soar, I have been experimenting on my stationary expanded coverage
> oav gadget. My hives are mite free now going into the Fall and winter.
> A few things I like to share with you are the hive number in question that got the
> treatment and the timing of the treatment.
> You see when the mites are capped with the broods the oav is not going to
> kill them. Oav is design to kill off the free running mites only at the time when the bees hatche dout. After the bees emerged then it is the time to treat since all the free running mites are hatched out also. So the timing is about every 21 days
> when the bees hatched. Some bees will emerge earlier while others are a bit late.
> Either way when your vaporizer does not has the expanded coverage then treating the
> 2 deep versus a single deep is not that effective. My expanded coverage oav gadget can treat the 2 deep without any issue. So as long as the bees on top still have the free running mites on them you still continue to see them. My only concern is whether or not your oav unit can treat the 2 deeps or more?
> As far as how often to treat? You can experiment it up to 5 weeks at every weekend to see the result. Because of the expanded capability gadget I have I only treated them 2 times to get rid of all the mites. Every hatch is healthy now since the end of August. Maybe I should fire up the gadget again to see if anymore mites are in there.


BeePro,

Thanks again for your post!

Yes, I understand that mites under capped brood are safe and sound from the OX acid vapor. That is why I am treating on a 5-7 day periods [7 works best for us because it is a weekend]!

I am interested in how you treat with your expanded coverage oav gadget...please elaborate more on this subject. What exactly is a "expanded coverage oav gadget." 

Thanks!



enjambres said:


> @Soar:
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> I do hope that the above does not mean that you are merely trying not to breathe the vapors! You know you should be wearing the recommended respirator fitted with "acid gas" cartridges, right? Get a properly fitted respirator, and check the seal every time you put it on.
> 
> @Beepro:
> 
> I am baffled by your reasoning about the frequency of the treatments.
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> While I certainly agree that OAV only affects the phoretic-stage mite, it's a bit more complicated than that because:
> 
> 1) Larvae are capped every day, and adults hatch out every day. It's not like there are fixed 21-day cycles where an entire generation of brood all starts at once;
> 
> 2) The capped-in stage of the bee pupal cycle is only about 14 days (a bit longer for the boys) and adult mites only slip into the cells a few hours before the capping starts (sneaky little vermin!).
> 
> 3) So if the egg-laying was assumed to be the same amount every day, 1/14th of the total number of bee pupae are capped each day and 1/14th emerge from the cells, along with the foundress mite and (on average) 1.8 of her mature daughter mites to augment the mite population.
> 
> If you're treating on 21-day bee brood intervals I think that's too far apart to be effective.
> 
> I am currently fussing at the math behind the most recently recommended treatment series. Right now, it's 3 treatments on 7-day intervals, or once a week. It formerly (as recently as six months ago) was 4 treatments on five day intervals. According to my figuring, neither really cuts it when you have an expanding bee brood population. The math is complicated, so right now I'm trying to nail down the assumptions about OAV efficacy, mite life cycles, etc., to work out a formula of my own. I'll tackle the math when I have a better handle on the underlying factors. It's on my list for a winter project.
> 
> FWIW, at the moment I am running a series in my yard atseven-day intervals. My bees are shutting down brood early (not as a result of OAV - there's some other factor at play) so I may not have to do any more than the three treatments, but I will do a fourth one if I don't see a really substantial stop to the mite drops.
> 
> Mite drops within three to five days after treatment are the results of treatment, not the level of mites in the hive. Change your boards out and catch the last two or three days of unforced mite drop to gauge the actual level before you treat again. (Or if it's still warm enough where you are, you could sugar roll.)
> 
> Enj.


Enj,

Awesome post, and you continually help so many of us here learn more about the truth in keeping bees. So thank you for your wisdom and posting the truth. Please share with us your computations regarding frequency of treatment after you do your math and research.

Yes, here in Central Valley, CA, we experience quite a difference in climate to beeks in northern and north eastern states. My understanding from people like JRG, is beeks on the west coast will have colonies that continue to lay eggs and have larvae even during the coldest months of the year...so this will be quite different than beeks up in Montana, North Dakota, New York, ect. To be honest with you, I think most people here on the west coast have no clue on how cold it actually gets in other states. Most of us only know Mediterranean climates, and this is a very narrow world view and experience!

Presently, our queens are laying eggs like crazy on a daily basis...I am beginning to think this must be the main reason most queens/nucs are purchased from California...I could be wrong, but deductive reasoning is kinda kicking in now...

Now, on to the Ox acid vaporization treatments...

Yes, we are currently treating on a weekly, 7 day basis...and I must confess, the interval of treatment is not merely out of scientific research, but out of convenience.

Now regarding wearing respirators and such...

Hmmmmm...

To be 100% honest with you, I am kinda using simple hillbilly reasoning at the moment [and I know it is probably wrong]...

I simply stand up wind of the vapor fumes as they come out of the hives...I know this is overly simplistic, but I am a rookie and I am trying to simplify this entire process, and, so far, it has worked.

Wanna know what scares me? Reading posts that describe in graphic detail the results of inhaling an unhealthy dose of the Ox acid vapor...it sounds very painful!

I was a professional painter for some years and still have lots of respirators laying around...most of which are the 3M Professional Multi-Purpose Respirators or the Kelly Moore Professional Respirators...

Please give me a recommendation on a ""acid gas" cartridge."

Are you suggesting something like this:

http://www.shop3m.com/3m-organic-vapor-acid-gas-cartridge-6003-07047-aad-respiratory-protection.html

Thanks!

Soar


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## beepro

"I am interested in how you treat with your expanded coverage oav gadget...please elaborate more on this subject. What exactly is a "expanded coverage oav gadget."

Perhaps this will help a bit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D2vLtiF2fI
This is an old vid that doesn't has the expanded coverage capability yet.
After that I made some improvement on the V2 version to allow the treatment to cover up to the 2nd deep box on all of my homemade oav gadgets. I call this the expanded coverage since the current oav unit on the market only
cover so much inside the hive because the pan is either too small or not enough acid powder use. 
In the vid you can see that the oav gadget is a stationary unit. At anytime
through out the year when you want to treat just fire up this gadget. I made it to favor the backyard or a few hives hobbyist up to 10. It is cheap to make too only a few dollars on materials and not need a battery or wires to connect to any electricity. It doesn't use electricity at all. Since this gadget is on its 3rd version now, I am holding it off to make more affordable improvement on the materials. Yes, the materials use everyone should have access to them locally whether in the snow country or in a warmer climate here. They are the everyday household materials around. I only treat for 2 minutes on each hive either single or double deep boxes.
Even with once a month treatment on each bee hatch cycle I still have more bees to overwinter with thanks to this invention. In my treatment findings my homemade oav gadget is the most effective on every 21 days on a hatch cycle to get the most mites. 
It is all because someone dare to challenge for a better and cheaper unit that works on BS sometime ago. Because there are so much improvement that can be made I don't want to give out the build details yet. I also have the idea of making an universal non-graft larvae frame where the queen can lay in and you just pluck out the plastic cup to put them in your cell builder/finisher. This process will utilize the small wax moth larvae to help too. These 2 ideas in the making will revolutionize the beekeeping industry for many years to come once released. One will knock out the mites and the other to increase the queen making success. Now the old grandpa/grandma (one day I will be one) can raise their own queens without the need to graft. Only 15-20 minutes away, I would like you to see my ideas at work once we are not that busy. Bottom line is that my stationary oav gadget is another way to deliver the oav into the hive at an affordable and safer way. I have more action vids to share of the entire treatment process. Wouldn't you like to see it in action one day?


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## AHudd

beepro, when did you invent the stationary OAV gadget? Are you going to manufacture and sell this gadget or sell plans? Since it is so easy and inexpensive, I don't understand the delay. Millions, perhaps billions of bees have died waiting for you to release such a revolutionary product. I implore you, please, hurry!

Alex


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## Barry

beepro said:


> This is an old vid that doesn't has the expanded coverage capability yet.


It appears you've made a special bottom board with a hole cut into it that has a compartment under it for burning the OA?


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

IMHO it affects the bees each time you use it. Likely it kills beneficial bacteria and microbes when you treat. We also know that it damages exposed brood. In comparison to what the mites would do, it is by far the lesser evil. 

My suggestion is that you monitor your colonies infestation levels. Treat accordingly. A beekeeper in Florida cannot fall the same treatment regime as a North Dakota beekeeper.


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## Little-John

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> IMHO it affects the bees each time you use it. Likely it kills beneficial bacteria and microbes when you treat. *We also know that it damages exposed brood.*


Evidence ?

LJ


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## snl

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> IMHO it affects the bees each time you use it. Likely it kills beneficial bacteria and microbes when you treat. We also know that it damages exposed brood. In comparison to what the mites would do, it is by far the lesser evil.


In over a thousand treatments, I have yet to see damaged brood from OAV, perhaps dribble, but not vaporization...........


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## BigGun

I read a study somewhere where the people treated daily with vapor for months with no damage. Someone else may have mentioned this haven't read the whole thread.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

Sorry I misunderstood. I thought we were talking dribble not vaporization.


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## Mike Gillmore

You obviously have something else in play here. After a 42 day Apivar treatment, then 4 OAV treatments you are still seeing heavy mite loads? I don't have an answer to the question of "how many times you can treat with OA", but you should not really need to treat any more than you already have. 

Just seems really odd to me. Maybe there is a problem with your vaporizer, or maybe you need to replace the queen? I don't know, but you have something else going on. Excessive OAV treatments will not correct the root cause.


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## Bob J

enjambres said:


> @Soar:
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I do hope that the above does not mean that you are merely trying not to breathe the vapors! You know you should be wearing the recommended respirator fitted with "acid gas" cartridges, right? Get a properly fitted respirator, and check the seal every time you put it on.
> 
> 
> @Beepro:
> 
> I am baffled by your reasoning about the frequency of the treatments.
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> While I certainly agree that OAV only affects the phoretic-stage mite, it's a bit more complicated than that because:
> 
> 1) Larvae are capped every day, and adults hatch out every day. It's not like there are fixed 21-day cycles where an entire generation of brood all starts at once;
> 
> 2) The capped-in stage of the bee pupal cycle is only about 14 days (a bit longer for the boys) and adult mites only slip into the cells a few hours before the capping starts (sneaky little vermin!).
> 
> 3) So if the egg-laying was assumed to be the same amount every day, 1/14th of the total number of bee pupae are capped each day and 1/14th emerge from the cells, along with the foundress mite and (on average) 1.8 of her mature daughter mites to augment the mite population.
> 
> If you're treating on 21-day bee brood intervals I think that's too far apart to be effective.
> 
> I am currently fussing at the math behind the most recently recommended treatment series. Right now, it's 3 treatments on 7-day intervals, or once a week. It formerly (as recently as six months ago) was 4 treatments on five day intervals. According to my figuring, neither really cuts it when you have an expanding bee brood population. The math is complicated, so right now I'm trying to nail down the assumptions about OAV efficacy, mite life cycles, etc., to work out a formula of my own. I'll tackle the math when I have a better handle on the underlying factors. It's on my list for a winter project.
> 
> FWIW, at the moment I am running a series in my yard atseven-day intervals. My bees are shutting down brood early (not as a result of OAV - there's some other factor at play) so I may not have to do any more than the three treatments, but I will do a fourth one if I don't see a really substantial stop to the mite drops.
> 
> Mite drops within three to five days after treatment are the results of treatment, not the level of mites in the hive. Change your boards out and catch the last two or three days of unforced mite drop to gauge the actual level before you treat again. (Or if it's still warm enough where you are, you could sugar roll.)
> 
> Enj.


I'm starting to also think that the key factor for the optimal treatment interval is how long a single treatment is effective to mites that are just emerging from capped brood..... I've looked at mite drops daily after treatment and they seem to peak on the next day and then do an orderly decline for 2 to 3 days after..... Since I can assume mites are constantly emerging it seems that a single treatment is at most effective for 3 days or so.... I'm not sure how soon newly emerging mites will go back under cap but am thinking it can't be more than a day or so.... If that is the case then it seems that a 3-4 day interval for one entire brood cycle would be the optimal.... 

This year I did 7 treatments on a 5 day schedule and the total drops varied significantly with the biggest drop on the 5th treatment... I think that is an indication that emerging mites are the main factor we need to consider if we are treating in August.....


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## xarhs

Oxalic acid harm the bees because is toxic (for varroa is more more toxic), but it Doesn't kills them. We do only 2 treatments per year. Every bee in the life shoold not take oxalic acid more than one times. Because then kills them or live less than one month.


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## snl

xarhs said:


> Oxalic acid harm the bees because is toxic (for varroa is more more toxic), but it Doesn't kills them. We do only 2 treatments per year. Every bee in the life shoold not take oxalic acid more than one times. Because then kills them or live less than one month.


I'm guessing you're speaking about the dribble method as vaporization does no harm........


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## snl

Bob J said:


> I'm not sure how soon newly emerging mites will go back under cap but am thinking it can't be more than a day or so..


Not true, mites stay phoretic 7-14 days after emergence from the brood, that's why the 3x7 treatment cycle works............


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## beeware10

remember we are killing a little bug on a bigger bug. this is a delicate balance to say the least. there has to be a point that the bee starts to be damaged by too much exposure.


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## xarhs

snl said:


> I'm guessing you're speaking about the dribble method as vaporization does no harm........


I have read many researches here in greece, and the dribble method harm the bees. I lost many bees the last year. Vaporization method may not harm the bees so much beceause they are not eating it.


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## soarwitheagles

Bob J said:


> I'm starting to also think that the key factor for the optimal treatment interval is how long a single treatment is effective to mites that are just emerging from capped brood..... I've looked at mite drops daily after treatment and they seem to peak on the next day and then do an orderly decline for 2 to 3 days after..... Since I can assume mites are constantly emerging it seems that a single treatment is at most effective for 3 days or so.... I'm not sure how soon newly emerging mites will go back under cap but am thinking it can't be more than a day or so.... If that is the case then it seems that a 3-4 day interval for one entire brood cycle would be the optimal....
> 
> This year I did 7 treatments on a 5 day schedule and the total drops varied significantly with the biggest drop on the 5th treatment... I think that is an indication that emerging mites are the main factor we need to consider if we are treating in August.....


Bob,

Not sure why the one hive is still having significant mite drops, but I am not that worried. I suppose I will keep vaporizing for a couple more times and see where this goes. After reading your post, I was thinking I may double up and vaporize twice per week instead of once per week.

Will post results later.

Today, I came home and checked the hives. Hive 1 had 85 dead mites on SBB, Hive 2 had zero. I am checking and counting daily to try to get a feel as to what is going on...


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## enjambres

@Soar:

Yuppers, that's the right type of cartridge, assuming it also fits the respirators you have, of course. I bought my mask at either Home Depot or Lowes, and the cartridges at the other one, because the ones that came with my mask were only for organic vapors, not acid gases, as required. This year I bought an additional mask because I've been giving demos of the OAV process and to my surprise the masks now come with the combo cartridges which saved me thirty bucks, or so.

You might be able to get away with going without a mask, but sooner or later you'll have some issue where you have to get in close and then you'll be in a pickle without a mask. Imagine if something unexpected happens and you suddenly feel you need to snatch the wand out mid-burn to avoid harm to your bees? I tripped on the cables once and jerked the wand upwards and I was certain it had contacted the frames and a fire was about to occur. Because I had the mask on I had no worries, I just opened the hive and pulled out the wand and let it finish cooking off in the open air while I made sure my bees were OK.

*Get a mask with the right cartridges and use it, every single time!*

You know, sooner or later we're going to hear about some unlucky soul getting seriously harmed by using OAV. Make sure that's not you.

Also, I wouldn't be trying OAV every few days, or routinely once a month or anything too free range like that. When I wrote about working out a formula, I wasn't suggesting we all just start treating willy-nilly, every few days, or routinely once a month, etc. I'm just trying to understand the treatment series' timing parameters and how OAV works best. I am doing the newly recommended series - 3 by 7 - (with the option of a fourth one, if needed, which Ii doubt since my girls are starting their brood vacation so early this year.)

If you have a hive that is not responding to treatment you probably should start doing sugar rolls as well as studying the drop counts. One reason for consistently high counts would be bees that are more "hygenic" at picking off the mites. I think the picked-off mites probably just wind up down on the SBB with all the other hive trash. A sugar roll will tell you how many adults are being parasitised. I would roll both the hives to compare the roll numbers with varying drop counts.

Enj.


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## Bob J

soarwitheagles said:


> Bob,
> 
> Not sure why the one hive is still having significant mite drops, but I am not that worried. I suppose I will keep vaporizing for a couple more times and see where this goes. After reading your post, I was thinking I may double up and vaporize twice per week instead of once per week.
> 
> Will post results later.
> 
> Today, I came home and checked the hives. Hive 1 had 85 dead mites on SBB, Hive 2 had zero. I am checking and counting daily to try to get a feel as to what is going on...


Sounds good.... Let us know how it goes and what you see for mite drops after each treatment.... It would be interesting to see if your results track with mine....


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## snl

soarwitheagles said:


> After reading your post, I was thinking I may double up and vaporize twice per week instead of once per week.


His (Bob J's) post was based on false assumptions and that was that newly emerged mites readily enter another cell about to be capped. That is not true, mites stay phoretic 7-14 days AFTER emergence on the newly hatched bee. Vaporizing once every 7 days for 3 weeks is very effective.

You will never get ALL the mites, it just does not occur.


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## Bob J

snl said:


> His (Bob J's) post was based on false assumptions and that was that newly emerged mites readily enter another cell about to be capped. That is not true, mites stay phoretic 7-14 days AFTER emergence on the newly hatched bee. Vaporizing once every 7 days for 3 weeks is very effective.
> 
> You will never get ALL the mites, it just does not occur.


Not true.... My main assumption was that a single vaporization is only effective for less than 3 days.... My daily checks show that drops tail off quickly after that and spike again with the next treatment even if that treatment is at 5 days.... 

Also, opinions differ on how long mites are phoretic but the consensus seems to be 5-11 days and not 7-14:

http://www.extension.org/pages/65450/varroa-mite-reproductive-biology#.VieLOJjrvqM



> The phoretic stage lasts about 5-11 days when there is brood in the colony


http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/varroa_mite.htm



> The phoretic period may last 4.5 to 11 days when brood is present in the hive


Anyway, as long as there is no evidence that repeated OAV treats do not harm the colony there should be minimal risk.


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## snl

Bob J said:


> Not true.... My main assumption was that a single vaporization is only effective for less than 3 days.... My daily checks show that drops tail off quickly after that and spike again with the next treatment even if that treatment is at 5 days....
> 
> True, the bees carry out the re-crystallized OA within days of treatment so yes it is effective for only about 3 days. But your assertion that newly emerged mites promptly enter a cell about to be capped is false. I'll yield on the phoretic stage. I agree. With treatment every 7 days, the mites that emerged with bees on the 2-3rd day will be vapped prior to entering another cell to reproduce.
> 
> Anyway, as long as there is no evidence that repeated OAV treats do not harm the colony there should be minimal risk.



I can't find any studies on harm to colonies with repeated OAV treatments. I have some test hives that I have treated every week for months with no apparent harm.


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## Bob J

snl said:


> I can't find any studies on harm to colonies with repeated OAV treatments. I have some test hives that I have treated every week for months with no apparent harm.


No problem and agree.... The main thing I am looking for is to give a minimal number of mites the chance to go back under cap before the next treatment.... That would indicate to me that given that mites are continually emerging from capped brood and a single treatment being effective only a few days that the most effective strategy would be to start a new treatment as soon as the old treatment effectiveness declines... Since there is no known mortality associated with multiple OAV exposure there is no down side except the additional effort required....


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## snl

Bob J said:


> that the most effective strategy would be to start a new treatment as soon as the old treatment effectiveness declines... Since there is no known mortality associated with multiple OAV exposure there is no down side except the additional effort required....


Not necessary and why waste the effort? Those mites that emerged after the treatment effective period will still be phoretic on the 7th day (sounds biblical...) from the prior treatment ... again using a treatment of once every 7 days for 3 weeks.


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## Bob J

snl said:


> Why waste the effort? Those mites will still be phoretic on the 7th day (sounds biblical...)


7 days is the average.... At that point half the mites are back under cap....

I guess it depends on your objective for treating.... I lost a number of hives to mites last year and have vowed never to put my girls through that again... My objective is maximum effectiveness.... If your objective is to simply knock down the varroa population then a 7 day strategy will certainly do that but I am now more of a scorched earth mentality.... For me that means no more than once every 5 days (minimum phoretic time) and maybe even every 4 days.... For me and my girls I don't mind the extra effort as long as I can effectively drive a stake in the heart of the mite population, particularly before the September turnover..... Different strokes different folks......;- )


----------



## crofter

Seven day treatment intervals is probably a numbers game that assesses the overall best bang for the buck. I had thought that the shorter time phoretic was the most common; apparently not so. Mites that jump back into a cell sooner have lower reproductive success rates than ones that remain phoretic longer. 

http://www.extension.org/pages/65450/varroa-mite-reproductive-biology#.Vieciisd_Eh Thnx snl for the link! good one to bookmark!

I have been shooting for 5 or 6 days and doing 4 rounds since I have not seen any mortality or setback after treatment but with my counts being so low I think I will go to the 7 X 3 routine.


----------



## snl

Bob J said:


> 7 days is the average.... At that point half the mites are back under cap....


No, if you treat on day one and the treatment is effective +-3 days, the mites that emerged after the effective treatment period are still phoretic on the 7th day (the next treatment date) and you'll get them then...........

However, you can't fight scorched earth mentality..........


----------



## soarwitheagles

Mike Gillmore said:


> You obviously have something else in play here. After a 42 day Apivar treatment, then 4 OAV treatments you are still seeing heavy mite loads? I don't have an answer to the question of "how many times you can treat with OA", but you should not really need to treat any more than you already have.
> 
> Just seems really odd to me. Maybe there is a problem with your vaporizer, or maybe you need to replace the queen? I don't know, but you have something else going on. Excessive OAV treatments will not correct the root cause.


Mike,

Thanks for sharing. Wow, I am less than a pre-schooler when it comes to bee keeping. I have no clue what the problem is. It seems odd to me that one hive has an almost zero mite drop, yet, the one right next to it is dropping 80-100 per day. I was thinking maybe the hive 2 has much lower mite numbers because it was split and there was a short season when there wasn't much brood, hence, less opportunity for mites to lay eggs in brood...I am only guessing though...still not sure what is going on.

I am fairly certain the vaporizer is working purrrrfect. I tested it a few times outside the hive...it vaporizes a full teaspoon in 90 seconds. When I set it in a hive, same time period. I do seal the hive the best I can, but still see very minute amounts of vapor escaping. I think 95% or more of the vapor remains in the hive and I leave it there for the full recommended 10 minutes.

Queen problem? Not sure, but the queen is still laying eggs like crazy, even in mid-Oct. Both queens in both hives are still busy laying lots of eggs.

Funny thought: maybe the old queen is producing those bees that practice better hygiene...man, if that is the case, I sure would like to figure out how to create lots of new queens from her stock!

Finally, the super good news for me is, instead of 300-400 dead mites a day from each hive, we are finally seeing only 80-100 dead mites a day on hive 1, 0-3 per day on the new split.

So I feel we are seeing some wonderful success for now...

Thanks again everyone for sharing your thoughts on how many times we can treat our bees with Oxalic Acid Vapor without hurting them!

I am a very simple person, but learning and experimenting with chemicals like this makes me feel like a junior scientist helping save important insects!

Learning so much: 

*Phoresy:* An association between two species in which one transports the other, for example when a mite attaches to a beetle and is carried to a new food source.

So, if I am understanding people here correctly, in layman's terms, a varroa mite cannot have a "piggyback ride" on a bee for 5-11 days after being born? Is it true?

PS UPDATE: checked again this evening, 85 or so dead mites on the hive 1, 18 on hive 2.


----------



## beepro

I have read that the free running mites can stay outside on the bees for up to 3 months.
True or not I do not know. But killing the mites with oav I am experimenting in my 2nd season.


----------



## snl

Soar,
The one hive with the large amount of brood will have larger mite drops as the mites are emerging and then being vapped. The other hive with the less brood will have lower counts as you've vapped all the phoretic mites with very few emerging. 
Are there other hives in the area? It could be that bees from those hives are bringing mites into yours. Something is just not right with all those treatments and still relatively large mite drops.


----------



## snl

soarwitheagles said:


> So, if I am understanding people here correctly, in layman's terms, a varroa mite cannot have a "piggyback ride" on a bee for 5-11 days after being born? Is it true?


No, that is not true. A mite emerging on a newly hatched bee will "gorge" themselves on that bee and others before entering back into brood to breed.


----------



## mbc

snl said:


> I can't find any studies on harm to colonies with repeated OAV treatments. I have some test hives that I have treated every week for months with no apparent harm.


STOP PRESS
"First oav resistant mites found in Manning, SC"
Just a thought.


----------



## snl

mbc said:


> STOP PRESS
> "First oav resistant mites found in Manning, SC"
> Just a thought.


Quote from Jennifer Berry " ...And I also agree, that resistance will not be an issue. It'd be like a ****roach becoming resistant to a hammer."


----------



## deknow

That is an interesting quote. I'd argue it is true, but only because a hammer isn't effective enough against an in vivo ****roach infestation to select for resistance. ...I bet even if you tried you couldn't get a 1% kill rate on an actual residential ****roach infestation with a hammer.


----------



## snl

deknow said:


> That is an interesting quote. I'd argue it is true, but only because a hammer isn't effective enough against an in vivo ****roach infestation to select for resistance. ...I bet even if you tried you couldn't get a 1% kill rate on an actual residential ****roach infestation with a hammer.


Yeah, yeah, yeah  But you get the point...........


----------



## soarwitheagles

enjambres said:


> @Soar:
> 
> Yuppers, that's the right type of cartridge, assuming it also fits the respirators you have, of course. I bought my mask at either Home Depot or Lowes, and the cartridges at the other one, because the ones that came with my mask were only for organic vapors, not acid gases, as required. This year I bought an additional mask because I've been giving demos of the OAV process and to my surprise the masks now come with the combo cartridges which saved me thirty bucks, or so.
> 
> You might be able to get away with going without a mask, but sooner or later you'll have some issue where you have to get in close and then you'll be in a pickle without a mask. Imagine if something unexpected happens and you suddenly feel you need to snatch the wand out mid-burn to avoid harm to your bees? I tripped on the cables once and jerked the wand upwards and I was certain it had contacted the frames and a fire was about to occur. Because I had the mask on I had no worries, I just opened the hive and pulled out the wand and let it finish cooking off in the open air while I made sure my bees were OK.
> 
> *Get a mask with the right cartridges and use it, every single time!*
> 
> You know, sooner or later we're going to hear about some unlucky soul getting seriously harmed by using OAV. Make sure that's not you.
> 
> Also, I wouldn't be trying OAV every few days, or routinely once a month or anything too free range like that. When I wrote about working out a formula, I wasn't suggesting we all just start treating willy-nilly, every few days, or routinely once a month, etc. I'm just trying to understand the treatment series' timing parameters and how OAV works best. I am doing the newly recommended series - 3 by 7 - (with the option of a fourth one, if needed, which Ii doubt since my girls are starting their brood vacation so early this year.)
> 
> If you have a hive that is not responding to treatment you probably should start doing sugar rolls as well as studying the drop counts. One reason for consistently high counts would be bees that are more "hygenic" at picking off the mites. I think the picked-off mites probably just wind up down on the SBB with all the other hive trash. A sugar roll will tell you how many adults are being parasitised. I would roll both the hives to compare the roll numbers with varying drop counts.
> 
> Enj.


Enj,

I was at Home Depot last night and forgot to pick up one of those new respirators. After reading your post I decided you are right...not smart to play around with chemicals. Do it right.

I hope to try my first sugar roll soon. Never attempted one but read several articles and it appears to a simple operation. I shrink from the alcohol wash method simply because I do not want to kill that many bees.

I was thinking of pausing the OX acid vapor after this weekend and wait until the time slot when there are the least amount of brood in the hives...

*Anyone here know the when the window in Central Valley is for the least amount of brood?* I think Randy Oliver's chart shows December, but that is in the foothills, we are in the flatlands here...

Enj,

I think I will scale back the treatments during the low brood window to the 3/7 ration. Three times, every 7 days.

Thanks again!

Soar


----------



## soarwitheagles

Update on the dead mite count:

Last night was H1 = 120 H2 = 8


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## JRG13

It's quite odd the original is still dropping that many, I've never found a brood break to be that effective honestly. Perhaps we got poor Apivar coverage in that hive.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Bob J said:


> I'm starting to also think that the key factor for the optimal treatment interval is how long a single treatment is effective to mites that are just emerging from capped brood..... I've looked at mite drops daily after treatment and they seem to peak on the next day and then do an orderly decline for 2 to 3 days after..... Since I can assume mites are constantly emerging it seems that a single treatment is at most effective for 3 days or so.... I'm not sure how soon newly emerging mites will go back under cap but am thinking it can't be more than a day or so.... If that is the case then it seems that a 3-4 day interval for one entire brood cycle would be the optimal....
> 
> This year I did 7 treatments on a 5 day schedule and the total drops varied significantly with the biggest drop on the 5th treatment... I think that is an indication that emerging mites are the main factor we need to consider if we are treating in August.....





JRG13 said:


> It's quite odd the original is still dropping that many, I've never found a brood break to be that effective honestly. Perhaps we got poor Apivar coverage in that hive.


No problem JRG! Have you any recommendations for us besides the Ox acid vapor treatments? I thought I read that after 3-4 treatments of the Ox acid, we would have wiped out 95% of the mites...

Man, I need help figuring this one out!

The count on H1 last night was 120 dead mites...and that is 6 days after last OA treatment...

BTW, when is the window here in Central Valley with the _least_ amount of brood?


----------



## JRG13

Depends on temperatures, whenever it's coldest..


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## soarwitheagles

JRG,

Ok, I think coldest months of the year here are usually December through January.

I have a plan...

I just counted the daily dead mite count. H1 had 60, H2 had 7.

I will zap both hives with the OA vapor in the next few minutes [yes, I know, 10 pm is not a very good idea, but at least they will all be home]...

Tomorrow, during the sugar syrup and pollen substitute feeding, I will do the weekly examination of both hives...

Then, I will install a tin of the Apiguard gel in H1, but not H2.

Randy's chart appears to indicate the Apiguard will work right up to November in this neck of the woods...

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/first-year-care-for-your-nuc/

I cannot think of anything else to do.

I do not want to lose another hive...man, that was so painful.

Another thought came to me this evening...I was wondering if my bees are robbing a feral hive where the feral bees have massive mite infestation...could this be a possibility?

One last question: How do I make Mann Lake's Ultra Bee Dry 50 lb bag into patties?

Thank you,

Soar


----------



## beepro

If the queen continue to lay through out the entire year except the occasional shut down
during the summer dearth then there are new broods and bees all year long. In the winter
months are when they have the smallest cluster of bees. If you want to help them along then
you can over feed them with syrup filling up all the brood cells available. That should minimize
the queen's ability to deposit new eggs into the cells. Feed by overfilling the brood nest as it is call.
Instantly you will have a smaller brood size nest. With the last oav in Dec. that should take care of the last remaining
mites until the Spring expansion again. 
This year I will not be feeding them that much syrup to back fill their brood nest like last year. The reason is to
test out the stationary oav gadget all the way to Feb. to see how many mite drop I have. Then document my findings. I can only do this little bee
experiment by having the queens continue to lay through out the winter months. 
The FAQ has a thread on some patty mixing method for you to try.


----------



## AHudd

Of course, if you force feed them, while the Queen is trying to lay eggs, you could induce late season swarm prep.

Alex


----------



## snl

AHudd said:


> Of course, if you force feed them, while the Queen is trying to lay eggs, you could induce late season swarm prep.
> 
> Alex


Da, what does that remark have to do with this thread?


----------



## AHudd

I was addressing the advice the given by beepro to the OP. Overfeeding a colony.

Alex


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## soarwitheagles

Did the OA Vapor treatment again last night. This time I compacted the teaspoon of Ox Acid power, so there was more in the vaporizer than ever before. I see an immediate corresponding increase of dead mite drops. I sure hope I am over dosing the bees...they appear to be healthy as can be, no dead bees to send an alarm.

This was the 6th treatment in 6 weeks.

Here's the 24 hour later count:

H1 had 200+ dead mites.
H2 had 100 dead mites.

I did not have the chance to put on the Apiguard today. Hope to do it tomorrow.

I hope to add the sugar syrup, the Mann Lake Bee Food, and the Apiguard all tomorrow.

On a side note, I found the instructions to mix the Mann Lake Dry Bee Food into patties. The instructions were on the bag. Whoops, sorry!

SNL, I do have a question. I am noticing significant white residue left over on the metal plate under the heating element on the vaporizing tool. Is this normal?

Thanks,

Soar


----------



## beepro

Of course, I am simply giving him advice on the local condition that
we are in. He is just 15-20 minutes away from me in the same bee
environment. Tonight's hive check showed some new bees hatching already.
And among them are the mites also. Not that many only a few that I saw.
It was exactly within the 21 days bee hatching cycle that the mites and the young bees emerged. I can treat once right now with oav and wait another 3-5 days to treat again for the remaining hatch.
Right now they still have many capped frame of bees soon to be emerging.
If the OP have enough Fall and winter bees then he could try to reduce the
brood nest by syrup feeding them. If not he can let them have another bee
cycle by November. I know that by treating now my Nov. bee cycle will have
fewer mites going into the winter months. Since we are in a mild winter climate
I can oav treat into Dec. if need to. Our Fall flow is just starting so I 
don't have to syrup feed them. But it will soon be over within a month or so. The
El Nino warmer than usual condition sure put things further back than last year.
The only way to know and be sure is to do a hive check to assess the hive condition to warrant another oav treatment or not.
Is there something wrong with the advice to reduce the brood nest a little while allowing the oav to kill more mites? Less broods and less mites to treat, right?
Let's see if you can give better advice so I can learn too. After all I am still doing my little mite experiment with my stationary oav gadget.


----------



## AHudd

I was merely reminding the Op to not allow the brood nest to become backfilled when the environmental conditions are such that the Queen is trying to lay eggs, as this condition has been known to cause swarming. Whether it be Spring expansion or Winter buildup. If I am wrong, please enlighten me.
If I am wrong, my apologies to the OP for butting into the conversation. 

Alex


----------



## soarwitheagles

Thanks Beepro and Alex for your comments. I appreciate you sharing your insights and good advice.

Alex, thanks for the caution on swarming. We inspect weekly, and no swarm cells or queen cups, so I am hoping we are ok.

I have been feeding these hives sugar syrup and pollen substitute non-stop under the assumption that the bees need these ingredients to build up comb and tend to the eggs/larvae. The bees have grown exponentially and have multiplied more than 10 times over. So I think I am doing the right thing in a terrible drought and frequent dearth.

After reading your posts, now, I am not so sure I should continue to feed them.

You say feeding sugar syrup can reduce brood cells...wow, that is not what I wanted to do. For me, the more the bees the merrier!

I still have two double deeps on each hive. The queens are still laying like crazy, in both the top and the bottom deeps, and I like that. I was hoping to build up the bee population before winter because I hear horror stories of hives dying if there are not enough bees. Also, I would like to do splits first thing this spring and I thought having more bee population would be beneficial for splitting hives and/or raising more queens.

Please explain brood nest becoming back filled. I think you are saying the comb has so much sugar syrup that the queen can no longer lay eggs? Is that it?

Finally, Beepro, you are saying we are in fall flow now. Is there a fall flow and if yes, what/where are the bees pulling in the pollen and nectar.

So sorry for all the questions...I am a total rookie and do not want to lose the hives again.

Thank you!

PS Good news: we are expecting rain later this week! YEAH!!!!


----------



## snl

soarwitheagles said:


> SNL, I do have a question. I am noticing significant white residue left over on the metal plate under the heating element on the vaporizing tool. Is this normal?


That's the "inert" ingredients in OA. You can scrape them out or just leave. I get it as well.


----------



## AHudd

Soar, there is much excellent info by Walt Wright on brood nest management and other subjects as well, here, http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/ 

Good luck,
Alex


----------



## AHudd

<Please explain brood nest becoming back filled. I think you are saying the comb has so much sugar syrup that the queen can no longer lay eggs? Is that it?

Yes, that is correct.

Alex


----------



## Hossman

snl said:


> That's the "inert" ingredients in OA. You can scrape them out or just leave. I get it as well.


The white material around the vaporizer is not an "inert" form of OA, it is OA, spilled out of the tray with water. Some beekeepers dip the vaporizer in water to cool it and the water on the tray contaminates the next acid filling. This is why we include instructions to make sure the pan is dry before filling with OA. If OA is not properly (air tight) stored it also takes moisture out of the air.
When heating water-contaminated OA with a vaporizer, water evaporates long before the acid and therefore spills a certain amount of acid out of the tray. Especially if the tray is overfilled. We have vaporized up to 3 grams at a time in the Heilyser but 2 grams is entirely sufficient, even for those running 3 deeps. 2 grams of OA vaporized will fill a space of 12 cubic feet. It seems to be a new phenomenon here in the US that people want to use more and more OA when the recommended dosage has been used successfully for years in other parts of the world. More isn't always better, and in this case a waste of the beekeeper's money. 

If* dry OA* evaporates properly with a vaporizer there should not be anything left. The tray should be light gray and empty. If there is residue left in the tray, after the right evaporating time, your battery is low on power.

Black residue on the vaporizer comes from melting burr combs under the frames. Some vaporizers, especially units from eastern Europe, are lateral off-set* mounted and out of balance. They can flip sideways and spill the acid in the hive. These units also have no heat protection and have already caused hives to burn like wax candles. 

Hope this helps.
Mark and Sara


----------



## snl

Hossman said:


> The white material around the vaporizer is not an "inert" form of OA, it is OA, spilled out of the tray with water.


No, not inert "OA" but the inert ingredients that come with OA as most OA is not 100% pure. It can be both inert ingredients and spilled OA. Otherwise, you are correct except for the lateral off set vaps. If you use the stabilizer bar that comes with the lateral offset vap, it won't flip.


----------



## Hossman

snl said:


> No, not inert "OA" but the inert ingredients that come with OA as most OA is not 100% pure. It can be both inert ingredients and spilled OA. Otherwise, you are correct except for the lateral off set vaps. If you use the stabilizer bar that comes with the lateral offset vap, it won't flip.


You are being misleading: if there is white residue remaining, which *IS* OA, no two ways about it, it means the vaporization was incomplete and/or that the pan or acid has been contaminated with moisture, either from the pan being dipped in water for cooling or because the OA was not stored in an airtight container. 
We are trying to educate folks about what is actually going on. That way they can change what they are doing for better results. E.g. keep out moisture, check your power source if you're getting incomplete vaporization, keep away from burr comb, etc.
An unfortunate thing about the stabilizer bar configuration is that it forces you to place the heater pan in the middle of the hive where you may not be able to avoid burr comb. We also don't recommend any vaporizer that does not have a heat shield between heating pan and bottom board of hive. Both are fire hazards. 
Do not ever force a vaporizer into a hive. If you feel resistance move the unit left or right. You should not be seeing lots of black residue on the vaporizer after treatment. If so, it is coming in contact with beeswax. So bottom line: you shouldn't be seeing a bunch of residue, black or white.
We currently run around 300 colonies and have been using OA vaporization for about 7 years with great success. It is not difficult once you get the hang of it and it is the treatment we've found to be most effective while being gentlest on the bees. No synthetic chemicals in the hive and it's pennies per treatment once you have the vaporizer. We don't consider it any more dangerous or tricky than deep-frying or soapmaking with lye. Just use common sense and common protective practices. 
Thanks, Mark and Sara. Bedillionhoneyfarm.com


----------



## snl

Hossman said:


> if there is white residue remaining, which *IS* OA, no two ways about it, it means the vaporization was incomplete and/or that the pan or acid has been contaminated with moisture, either from the pan being dipped in water for cooling or because the OA was not stored in an airtight container.
> Answer: Unfortunately, that is not true,_* inert ingredients in addition*_ to incomplete OA vaporization can leave residue.
> 
> we are trying to educate folks about what is actually going on. That way they can change what they are doing for better results. E.g. keep out moisture, check your power source if you're getting incomplete vaporization, keep away from burr comb, etc.
> Answer: That is all very true.
> 
> An unfortunate thing about the stabilizer bar configuration is that it forces you to place the heater pan in the middle of the hive where you may not be able to avoid burr comb.
> Answer: That is not true, the stabilization bar can be adjusted. And the you are not forced to place it in the middle of the hive, there is lots of wiggle room to avoid burr comb.
> 
> Do not ever force a vaporizer into a hive. If you feel resistance move the unit left or right. You should not be seeing lots of black residue on the vaporizer after treatment. If so, it is coming in contact with beeswax. So bottom line: you shouldn't be seeing a bunch of residue, black or white.
> Answer: Very true.
> 
> It is not difficult once you get the hang of it and it is the treatment we've found to be most effective while being gentlest on the bees. No synthetic chemicals in the hive and it's pennies per treatment once you have the vaporizer. We don't consider it any more dangerous or tricky than deep-frying or soapmaking with lye. Just use common sense and common protective practices.
> Answer: Totally agree


Larry


----------



## soarwitheagles

Hossman said:


> The white material around the vaporizer is not an "inert" form of OA, it is OA, spilled out of the tray with water. Some beekeepers dip the vaporizer in water to cool it and the water on the tray contaminates the next acid filling. This is why we include instructions to make sure the pan is dry before filling with OA. If OA is not properly (air tight) stored it also takes moisture out of the air.
> When heating water-contaminated OA with a vaporizer, water evaporates long before the acid and therefore spills a certain amount of acid out of the tray. Especially if the tray is overfilled. We have vaporized up to 3 grams at a time in the Heilyser but 2 grams is entirely sufficient, even for those running 3 deeps. 2 grams of OA vaporized will fill a space of 12 cubic feet. It seems to be a new phenomenon here in the US that people want to use more and more OA when the recommended dosage has been used successfully for years in other parts of the world. More isn't always better, and in this case a waste of the beekeeper's money.
> 
> If* dry OA* evaporates properly with a vaporizer there should not be anything left. The tray should be light gray and empty. If there is residue left in the tray, after the right evaporating time, your battery is low on power.
> 
> Black residue on the vaporizer comes from melting burr combs under the frames. Some vaporizers, especially units from eastern Europe, are lateral off-set* mounted and out of balance. They can flip sideways and spill the acid in the hive. These units also have no heat protection and have already caused hives to burn like wax candles.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> Mark and Sara


Very, very helpful Mark and Sara! Thanks for sharing. Ok, please let me ask you this question: how many teaspoons of OA are equal to 2 grams?

Also, I think my OA must be contaminated with water, because I am seeing lots of "splash over" under the vaporizer. I like you comment that 2 grams of OA will fill 12 cubic feet. I suppose 2 deeps would be less than 4 cubic feet, so no need whatsoever to go over the 2 gram mark.

I did purchase my vaporizer from the Czech Republic. Man, I hope I did't make a mistake. It seems to be working well. I am using only new batteries, yes, batteries installed on our truck and/or new Versa.

Is there anyway I can "dry out" my supply of OA? I purchased an entire pound of the stuff...


----------



## soarwitheagles

snl said:


> No, not inert "OA" but the inert ingredients that come with OA as most OA is not 100% pure. It can be both inert ingredients and spilled OA. Otherwise, you are correct except for the lateral off set vaps. If you use the stabilizer bar that comes with the lateral offset vap, it won't flip.


Whoops, so sorry snl!

I didn't see that you and Hossman had a disagreement on some of the facets of the OA treatments.

You both have a lot of great ideas and experience to offer us here at BS. Many of us have learned a lot from you two.

Thanks for sharing and I hope to keep learning from people like you!


----------



## beepro

Alex, you are correct. Over feeding will cause the syrup to back fill the
queen's laying cells (brood nest) which hinder the queen's ability to lay
some new Fall/winter bees. I'm suggesting to Soar to lightly to reduce the brood nest not backfilling it completely. This should reduce the brood nest somewhat but still have room for the queen to lay. Already done it last year. Learn a lot in the process. When the Fall flow is on they do it automatically if you don't give them enough room to store the extra nectar. 

Yes, we do have a small Fall flow right now. They are collecting from the Fall blooming flowers and fruit trees. Around my area there are many 
Loquat trees in bloom now. They produce the white pollen and light clear nectar. My backyard has 2 trees half way blooming. Yummy fruits by mid-summer. Because beekeeping is local, whatever you plant for them they will collect. If you have alfalfa blooming right now they will collect for the winter. If you know when to plant the canola for them they will give you plenty of pollen and nectar harvest. It is o.k. for you to ask questions. The more you ask the more you will learn. And I get to learn from others as well. We do have the arctic chill when the El Nino is not around. Not sure about this winter though. So plan for a good Spring expansion if everything goes accordingly. If your hive is too big then they will require more feeding when they start brooding up in the early Spring time. For a big hive when it is raining in Feb.-May, they are locked in without anything to eat when things are not blooming or affected by the El Nino rains. This is a critical time when they might be starved to death when they are brooding up. Sometime bigger is not better depending on the outside environment during that time. My goal is to only feed them enough before the winter months so that they will have enough winter bees in the hive. We are not in the snow country so no need to have 3 or 4 big hives to overwinter them. When the weather is favorable then we can make the splits. No drones will fly in the rains even when you have some virgin queens. I'm looking into May to have some favorable weather to make the splits. It is how you manage them to enable them to thrive according to our local environment. 
Continue to keep the mite level down and you are on the right track now. The folks who lose their hives either have the mite infestation going into the winter and too many old bees and not enough young bees before going into the winter. How many young bees do you have now? Mine should be enough after this and the Nov. hatch. Will have some drawn brood comb for the queen to lay some more without the nectar filling in the brood nest. In the end it doesn't matter if the brood nest is all back filled or not. We beekeepers should have some tricks in our sleeves to keep things moving even though we're in the mildest of winter here. We are saved thanks to the El Nino effects this year! Although things should be normal each and every year.

See what's blooming now:


----------



## Daniel Y

xarhs said:


> Oxalic acid harm the bees because is toxic (for varroa is more more toxic), but it Doesn't kills them. We do only 2 treatments per year. Every bee in the life shoold not take oxalic acid more than one times. Because then kills them or live less than one month.


OA is not toxic to bees or mites. At least not vaporized. Not sure about dribble but I don't think it is effective due to toxicity either. OA is not a poison.


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## JTGaraas

I am confident there is an incredible number of authorities that will say that oxalic acid, vaporized or dribbled, is toxic for mites. The effectiveness will have variability based upon operator skills, battery level, and perhaps even weather conditions, but I am willing to try to achieve the anticipated 95%-97% by using the method - first time over the weekend on four hives. To deny the toxicity of oxalic acid to varroa mites makes no sense to me.


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## snl

Soar, can you provide a pic of your pan after vaporization?


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## allniter

For sure U have to have a good battery charge or a good connection to the battery --or it will not vaporize all 2 gr. OXALIC ACID in the time frame


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## Hossman

Answer: Unfortunately, that is not true, inert ingredients in addition to incomplete OA vaporization can leave residue.

If you are getting a significant residue after vaporization, there is an issue that needs corrected. That's all I'm getting at. I'm trying to help people correct an issue/get a better result. 

We do not experience significant residue after vaporization (unless we have had one of our previously mentioned issues that we are trying to help people avoid. Excess moisture, low power) 

Yes, an inert ingredient "can leave residue" and even the OA itself can leave ash behind (.05% , not what I would call significant but maybe you would.) But we are talking about a "significant residue." 
The question was "I am noticing significant white residue left over on the metal plate under the heating element on the vaporizing tool. Is this normal?"

The answer is No. Significant white residue which is so great that it spills over the heating pan onto the metal plate below is not what you want to happen. Not the end of the world. Just trying to help people use and care for their tools for a better result.


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## snl

Hossman said:


> You are splitting hairs to avoid the issue.


Why would I do that? It's not even my vap he's using. I've asked for a pick of the residue. His, your & my idea of significant residue can all be different. Again, a pic would resolve it...........


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## Hossman

soarwitheagles we use our truck battery too when we can drive close enough to the hives. We use a jump starter/battery jump pack in yards where we can't drive close enough. Can't speak for the model you have. I'm not sure what the depth of the pan is/the quantity of acid it adequately holds. Not sure how much acid you were loading? I'd just recommend you keep the residues cleaned up after use to prolong its life. Toothbrush and soapy water is what we use. I think a gram comes out to a heaping 1/4 teaspoon. I wonder if you could put the OA container and a separate container of rice inside another container and dry it out like a soggy cell phone lol (kidding!) I think I'd just use up that pound. Lots of treatments in a pound.


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## beepro

Not sure what is in the silica gel.
I'm using the water absorbing crystals to 
take out any excessive moisture. You can store
the entire pound inside a metal can and put it in
a warm place like on top of the fridge.


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## soarwitheagles

Hossman said:


> Answer: Unfortunately, that is not true, inert ingredients in addition to incomplete OA vaporization can leave residue.
> 
> If you are getting a significant residue after vaporization, there is an issue that needs corrected. That's all I'm getting at. I'm trying to help people correct an issue/get a better result.
> 
> We do not experience significant residue after vaporization (unless we have had one of our previously mentioned issues that we are trying to help people avoid. Excess moisture, low power)
> 
> Yes, an inert ingredient "can leave residue" and even the OA itself can leave ash behind (.05% , not what I would call significant but maybe you would.) But we are talking about a "significant residue."
> The question was "I am noticing significant white residue left over on the metal plate under the heating element on the vaporizing tool. Is this normal?"
> 
> The answer is No. Significant white residue which is so great that it spills over the heating pan onto the metal plate below is not what you want to happen. Not the end of the world. Just trying to help people use and care for their tools for a better result.


Thanks again for sharing. I trust we will all come to some very good conclusions about the residue. I cannot state scientifically if we are seeing significant residue, but it appears as nearly the same amount that was in the pan, only really fluffed up a lot, kinda like cotton candy. I realize now using a scientific scale will help determine the exact percentage of residue. I have a good scale laying around somewhere...just need to find it and then I will use it.



allniter said:


> For sure U have to have a good battery charge or a good connection to the battery --or it will not vaporize all 2 gr. OXALIC ACID in the time frame


allniter, as stated before, we are using brand new batteries...one in a Nissan Truck, the other in a new Versa. Only doing two hives at a time, so I have full confidence this is not a battery issue at all.



snl said:


> Soar, can you provide a pic of your pan after vaporization?


Yes, I will do my best to do a vaporization outside the hive again with pics this time, then one from inside the hive, but without pics on that test. Please give me some time. Rains are suppose to begin on Wednesday and we have all sorts of stuff we need to get in out of the rain here on the ranch...I need some time.



Daniel Y said:


> OA is not toxic to bees or mites. At least not vaporized. Not sure about dribble but I don't think it is effective due to toxicity either. OA is not a poison.


Daniel, I do not want to sound mean or nasty or proud or arrogant, but your statement contradicts hundreds of people's scientific experiments and research and personal experience. Perhaps you made a typo?



snl said:


> Why would I do that? It's not even my vap he's using. I've asked for a pick of the residue. His, your & my idea of significant residue can all be different. Again, a pic would resolve it...........


snl, yes, I will do my best to get a pic posted here asap.



Hossman said:


> soarwitheagles we use our truck battery too when we can drive close enough to the hives. We use a jump starter/battery jump pack in yards where we can't drive close enough. Can't speak for the model you have. I'm not sure what the depth of the pan is/the quantity of acid it adequately holds. Not sure how much acid you were loading? I'd just recommend you keep the residues cleaned up after use to prolong its life. Toothbrush and soapy water is what we use. I think a gram comes out to a heaping 1/4 teaspoon. I wonder if you could put the OA container and a separate container of rice inside another container and dry it out like a soggy cell phone lol (kidding!) I think I'd just use up that pound. Lots of treatments in a pound.


Hoss,

Thanks again for sharing from your personal experience and expertise. I am using the battery in the Nissan Truck and the battery in the Nissan Versa. Both are brand new batteries. I only vaporize two hives, once a week. I am nearly 100% certain it is not a battery issue. I have the Costco battery jump pack, but haven't had to use it. May need it if we receive the large storms as some are predicting.

Funny thing on the acid loading... I purchased one full pound of OA from either Ebay or Amazon. It says 99.9% pure. But the texture is similar to the fluffy stuff I used as a filler when building remote control airplanes/drones. Unfortunately, I have not weighed each dose. Here is what I have discovered: when I placed two unpacked [fluffy] small quarter teaspoons of the OA in the vaporizer, it did not kill that many mites. Two weeks ago I began to compress the OA in the little 1/4 teaspoon. Very significant difference in the mite kill. More than double. The amount of residue also varied according to how much I loaded the vaporizer.

Not sure if my OA was water contaminated. Purchased it new and kept it dry in a clean, dry, sealed room.

Depth of pan? 3/8 inch I believe. I am posting a pic of the unit I purchased from Czech republic. The dude has 100% positive feedback and the only thing he sells are these vaporizers...

I just purchased another vaporizer this evening from another vendor. I may have jumped the gun, but I have been wanting a back up system, and I suppose now is as good as time as ever.

I plan on purchasing another pound of OXALIC ACID and see if there is any significant difference. Will do my best to weigh both the initial load and any residue left over. I have had residue on every burn so far...

I am open to any all suggestions to make this work.

Thanks again everyone for your input.

Soar


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## beepro

Forget about the pound of oa powder.
Goto your local Ace Hardware store to buy the wood bleach oa powder.
They work just as good killing those mites I have. They are in a plastic can.

Wood bleach oa powder:


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## Mike Gillmore

beepro said:


> Go to your local Ace Hardware store to buy the wood bleach oa powder.



Great suggestion. Pick up some Savogran Wood Bleach as in the pic above, it will only cost you a few bucks. Test that out and see if there is a difference in the way it vaporizes compared to the product you have now. First step in the process of elimination before you waste too much time on other things. Savogran is a sure thing, been using it for many years. You can use it for your baseline in testing the other product.


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## snl

beepro said:


> Not sure what is in the silica gel.
> I'm using the water absorbing crystals to
> take out any excessive moisture.


That may be a good idea.....worth trying


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## soarwitheagles

beepro said:


> Forget about the pound of oa powder.
> Goto your local Ace Hardware store to buy the wood bleach oa powder.
> They work just as good killing those mites I have. They are in a plastic can.
> 
> Wood bleach oa powder:





Mike Gillmore said:


> Great suggestion. Pick up some Savogran Wood Bleach as in the pic above, it will only cost you a few bucks. Test that out and see if there is a difference in the way it vaporizes compared to the product you have now. First step in the process of elimination before you waste too much time on other things. Savogran is a sure thing, been using it for many years. You can use it for your baseline in testing the other product.


Thanks guys! You are incredibly helpful! We have an Ace Hardware in town. I will swing by and pick up a bucket.


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## sjj

The acidic beekeeping generates money streams. 
We are supposed to love it.


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## soarwitheagles

sjj said:


> The acidic beekeeping generates money streams.
> We are supposed to love it.


To be honest with you, I'd love anything that kills the mites without harming the bees...and for me, money has nothing to do with it...

I hate any creature that attaches itself to you and begins to suck the life out of you...whether that be ticks in the Santa Cruz Mountains, leeches in the Nepali jungles, or Asian Round worms in Southeast Asia...unfortunately, I have had personal experience with all three...and it wasn't pleasant.

In fact, it they were sehr schlecht!


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## Striider

Soarwitheagles - I 100% agree about (harmful) parasites of any kind. Scorch the earth! As far as your initial problems of continued high mite counts, I see the opposite so far in my 3 hives, all mite counts have drastically lowered after (3) 5-7 day treatments.


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## soarwitheagles

Striider said:


> Soarwitheagles - I 100% agree about (harmful) parasites of any kind. Scorch the earth! As far as your initial problems of continued high mite counts, I see the opposite so far in my 3 hives, all mite counts have drastically lowered after (3) 5-7 day treatments.


Thanks Striider!

I am beginning to think there is something wrong with either the OA I purchased and/or the amount I am placing in the vaporizer. I did notice a marked increase in dead mites when I began to "compress" [pack it down] the OA in the teaspoon.

I hope to purchase a sealed bucket of the stuff at Ace and see if there is a difference. I also just purchased another vaporizer, so I suppose it is time to experiment and do my best to discover what the problem is...


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## soarwitheagles

After getting stung/bit 20+ times today from the yellow jacket Subterranean wasps during a plowing event, I was still able to zap the bee hives with OA.

Powered up for a total of 120 seconds on both treatments.

Blocked open slots with a cloth.

Here's some pics!

Some show before the vaporizing process. Some show the residue. Some show the full dosage. Some show how I inserted the vaporizer into the hive. Etc.

Enjoy!


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## Mike Gillmore

Was this using the new OA from Ace Hardware, or your old supply? 

That is waaay to much residue on the tray. There should only be a very light film seen, if anything. Something is really out of whack. Either your vaporizer is not working properly, or you have a bad batch of OA.


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## snl

There is way too much moisture in the OA. That's what's causing all the residue. As the moisture is boiling off, it's causing all the splattering of the OA. Try the new batch of OA and see how that works. And keep it air tight and maybe get some of those silica dry packs to place in with it. If you still have residue ( but not all that splattering), try leaving the vap connected for another 30 seconds. Also, that appears to be a lot of OA packed into the vap. How many grams?


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## crofter

Is the pan leaking or is it overflowing during liquid stage boil off? The charge seems to completely fill the pan. I found I needed more freeboard to keep from overflowing.


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## Axtmann

soarwitheagles said:


> After getting stung/bit 20+ times today from the yellow jacket Subterranean wasps during a plowing event, I was still able to zap the bee hives with OA.
> 
> Powered up for a total of 120 seconds on both treatments.
> 
> Blocked open slots with a cloth.
> 
> Here's some pics!
> 
> Some show before the vaporizing process. Some show the residue. Some show the full dosage. Some show how I inserted the vaporizer into the hive. Etc.
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> View attachment 21735
> View attachment 21736
> View attachment 21737
> View attachment 21738
> View attachment 21739


you should go for an professional vaporizer, this one is leaking ...it's garbage.


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## crofter

I think it is basically a good design but I wonder if the heating element is being exposed to the oxalic acid. Can't tell exactly the detail of pan construction and whether the heated tip of the plug is isolated from the charge as it should be. A person often makes a few models before he gets the bugs all worked out!


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## Mike Gillmore

crofter said:


> I wonder if the heating element is being exposed to the oxalic acid.


Excellent observation. Looks like the residue is overflowing on the "element" side of the vaporizer. Maybe it's getting too hot on that side before the acid has a chance to liquefy in the pan.


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## soarwitheagles

Mike Gillmore said:


> Was this using the new OA from Ace Hardware, or your old supply?
> 
> That is waaay to much residue on the tray. There should only be a very light film seen, if anything. Something is really out of whack. Either your vaporizer is not working properly, or you have a bad batch of OA.


Mike I used the old OA. Will pick up the new asap and give it a shot.



snl said:


> There is way too much moisture in the OA. That's what's causing all the residue. As the moisture is boiling off, it's causing all the splattering of the OA. Try the new batch of OA and see how that works. And keep it air tight and maybe get some of those silica dry packs to place in with it. If you still have residue ( but not all that splattering), try leaving the vap connected for another 30 seconds. Also, that appears to be a lot of OA packed into the vap. How many grams?


snl, 1/2 teaspoon, packed, not fluffed up.



crofter said:


> Is the pan leaking or is it overflowing during liquid stage boil off? The charge seems to completely fill the pan. I found I needed more freeboard to keep from overflowing.


crofter, I will do a burn outside the hive and observe it very carefully, then post the results. Thanks!



crofter said:


> I think it is basically a good design but I wonder if the heating element is being exposed to the oxalic acid. Can't tell exactly the detail of pan construction and whether the heated tip of the plug is isolated from the charge as it should be. A person often makes a few models before he gets the bugs all worked out!


Good point, but the seller has 100% positive reviews on these OA vaporizers...picked it up on Ebay, shipped from Czech Republic...



Mike Gillmore said:


> Excellent observation. Looks like the residue is overflowing on the "element" side of the vaporizer. Maybe it's getting too hot on that side before the acid has a chance to liquefy in the pan.


Good point. I will do my best to vaporize outside the hive, with video cam rolling. Hope to get to the bottom of this!

Thanks again everyone for helping me. With a little more trial and error, I am certain to make this work well.


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## crofter

I would try to ensure only positive reviews on my advertising material too!


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## Terry C

Mike Gillmore said:


> Was this using the new OA from Ace Hardware, or your old supply?
> 
> That is waaay to much residue on the tray. There should only be a very light film seen, if anything. Something is really out of whack. Either your vaporizer is not working properly, or you have a bad batch of OA.


He needs to upsiize the power supply wire to his vaporizer , that looks like about 16 or 18 ga wire , and that size won't allow the current needed . SWE , does the wire get warm while you're vaping the hives ?


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## snl

Terry C said:


> He needs to upsiize the power supply wire to his vaporizer , that looks like about 16 or 18 ga wire , and that size won't allow the current needed . SWE , does the wire get warm while you're vaping the hives ?


That wire sb fine. Were only talking 96 watts and 12 volts.


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## Harley Craig

I didn't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been mentioned but I just saw a post on FB where the Don the Fatbeeman claims he does an OAV treatment once a month with no queen issues.


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## snl

Harley Craig said:


> I didn't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been mentioned but I just saw a post on FB where the Don the Fatbeeman claims he does an OAV treatment once a month with no queen issues.


I have one "test" hive I've vapped every 10 days to two weeks over this summer with no issues. Got two supers of honey (about right for this area) that I'm using to feed the other hives. I'm not advocating, just posting my results.


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## MT204

And here's one way to dry Oxalic acid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxYwE6lGNMI


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## snl

MT204 said:


> And here's one way to dry Oxalic acid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxYwE6lGNMI


I'll be sure to run right over to my lab and do that!


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## Galaxie

snl said:


> That wire sb fine. Were only talking 96 watts and 12 volts.


I have to respectfully disagree with you snl. If he's using a car battery, 12 gauge wire should be the minimum. I made that mistake when I first tested my homemade vaporizer. The 16 ga leads I used got hot enough to melt the insulation.


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## snl

Galaxie said:


> I have to respectfully disagree with you snl. If he's using a car battery, 12 gauge wire should be the minimum. I made that mistake when I first tested my homemade vaporizer. The 16 ga leads I used got hot enough to melt the insulation.


Well Galaxie, all I can tell you is that bought that Vap to test. Now, I did not like it as it did not have a solid pan, rather was wrapped metal. However, when I tested it, it did vaporize OA and the wires did not get hot. I've sold hundreds of ones very similar with a solid pan and no one has reported "hot or melting wires." Perhaps, your homemade vaporizer is different from this one in terms of the plug used, etc....


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## Lburou

If you have problems with moisture in your oxalic acid, a simple way to control it is with a desiccant silica gel, Like This. Just place it in your container with the oxalic acid and it will absorb moisture. Heat it in your kitchen oven to release moisture and you are ready to go again. (keep the oxalic acid from coming into contact with the device so you don't have problems in your oven....I doubt there any varroa in there). ;-) HTH


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## allniter

GALAXIE ---U might have loose wire that will make the wires hot or warm ---my OXAVAP work excellent


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## Galaxie

Allniter,
I actually double-checked the connections before trying it and even though the wires were quite short they still got too hot. My glow plug must have a higher "current draw" than the other makes. Now that it has 12 ga wires, it works perfectly.


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## JMHammond

VolBee said:


> Kill 'em all. If it is not hurting God's most amazing insect ( everything I read, says it does not) then I have been thinking the same thing. Kill every week, kill every single one. Send them to Verroa Hell.


Amen brother!


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## Gypsi

Did I OD my bees? The holiday the grandchildren, business trucks and home repairs got in the way of the bees. Fortunately I only did one hive, it is 1 deep, 2 medium boxes They did not get a good treatment back in November and are starting to pull in pollen sub by the bee-load. So if brood, probably uncapped No time to tape, so I didn't pop the hive open and check for brood hoping their propolis seals do the job. 
Cleaned the sticky board, stuck a rag in above it, had a freshly charged lawnmower/motorcycle battery. And used 3 scoop of Ace Hardware Wood Bleach to fill the round dish on my varroa cleaner. Powered for 3 minutes, then disconnected and left cleaner in hive for a couple of more minutes. No white residue. Slight blackening and one dead bee in it when I pulled it out

It seemed to me that back in November I measured it and that dish held the right amount for a double deep but it reads suspiciously like I might have used 3 grams. Does anyone know?

Gypsi


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## soarwitheagles

Gypsi,

I think you are fine. Glad to hear you are zapping the mites!

I continued to zap our mites once a week for about 8 weeks. Presently there are only 1-3 dead mites every few days, so massive difference. I had to return the slow burning OA vaporizer to the Ebay seller. The vaporizer still didn't vaporize the OA even after 10 minutes. Way to slow for me.

The Czech vaporizer is working perfect after I switched to new OA from Ace Hardware.

One of my hives is flourishing, the other appears to be ready to give up the ghost.

What can I say other than, I did my very best.

The good news is that the OA vaporizing is incredibly effective and I am so thankful for all the people here at BS that have helped so many of us learn how to use it effectively.

Happy Holidays to all!

Soar


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## Gypsi

Soar,

Thank you for your answer

I know it does work. I treated a swarm hive in October and they dropped 200 mites in 24 hour. The hive I did today did not get well done then, 2015 was difficult to schedule anything in.

With the bees chasing around in my chicken feed looking for pollen they let me know they would like some pollen sub so I gave them some, and then remembered that mites would end up in the capped brood. The little spoon in the wood bleach looks just a little smaller than a 1/4 teaspoon, but the round dish on the varroa cleaner seemed to hold the correct amount for a double box hive. Hopefully I only killed mites and my hive will be strong and beautiful this coming year.

BeeSource is an amazing resource for the beekeeping community. If there is any cash when I close the books on 2015 I think I should donate a little. Glad you are still here.

Gypsi


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