# What's So Bad About Swarming?



## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

When a hive swarms there is not a guarantee that they will become queen right again. Sometimes when the colony swarms they do it more than once leaving you with a weak colony. Swarms don't always choose to live in a tree and some move into houses that have occupants(people). Letting them swarm(purposely) is poor management


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## PeteS (May 1, 2010)

I'm with you Fogducker! My sediments exactly!Maybee if we let more swarm the feral population will become more established. As Mike Bush has said let them do what comes natural!:applause:
Pete


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## Eyeshooter (Mar 8, 2008)

Well, I agree with Beeslave. How nice it would be if we could just let the bees swarm if they decide to. If I did that and they went to a neighbor's property I'd be risking my 9 hive apiary due to poor management. I am a huge follower of Michael (all mediums, small cell, no treat etc) but I live in an area where a swarm may end up at a neighbor's house and do not want the hassle it would cause. If you manage your bees properly, they will not want to swarm and you still allow them to create additional hives.

If I had only 1 hive I would be concerned about making sure they do not swarm or you may end up with none.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

I'd love to be able to set up some swarm traps next to those who see nothing wrong with swarming. It's your choice, no problem as long as it doesn't bother the neighbors. However, imagine a swarm moving into your nieghbors yard. You think they are going to be pleased? I'm a beekeeper and that noise even makes me nervous. Imagine if they are afraid of bees, or are alergic, or think they are alergic, or they have a family get together going on, they move into their house or barn, etc... Eventually you're going to have one of any of these problems if you've got neighbors. It's got the strong potential of straining the relationship at the least.

Personally, I try to do everything I can within reason to avoid my hives swarming with plenty of room and homegrown queens in the Fall. If they swarm, kiss the honey production goodbye as they fly away. I still have swarms on occasion and I set up traps to get them in case I'm not there. Even then, they may not move into my traps but I've done all I could to avoid it.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Eyeshooter said:


> If you manage your bees properly, they will not want to swarm and you still allow them to create additional hives.


Without trying to pick your words apart, I'm not sure I'd agree with that statement. It implies that swarming depends on your management. Bees will do whatever bees do despite your best management, sometimes.

I tell my new beekeeping students (especially those with teenage daughters) managing your bees not to swarm is like managing your teenagers when they go out on a date. You try your best as parents, but sometimes raging hormones have other plans. The hive has its own "hormones," and swarming is its way of expressing multiplication.


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## jb63 (Jun 15, 2010)

This is an interesting question. Kind of like the chicken and the egg.
Which came first? The swarm or the hive. I live outside of the urban growth boundary , so swarm catching is like fishing. I caught 1, and my neighbor (about 2mi away) has caught 8. I was feeling the pressure of getting skunked
untill last sat.
On the other side of the coin, if you live in a high density area where your neighbors don't know the difference between yellow jackets and honey bees
it could spell trouble. Good for Ortho spray foam {capeable of shooting 20},
bad for the bees.


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## jb63 (Jun 15, 2010)

This is an interesting question. Kind of like the chicken and the egg.
Which came first? The swarm or the hive. I live outside of the urban growth boundary , so swarm catching is like fishing. I caught 1, and my neighbor (about 2mi away) has caught 8. I was feeling the pressure of getting skunked
untill last sat.
On the other side of the coin, if you live in a high density area where your neighbors don't know the difference between yellow jackets and honey bees
it could spell trouble. Good for Ortho spray foam {capeable of shooting 20},
bad for the bees.


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## TripleH (Jun 5, 2010)

Hi All, (1 st post)
I just started beekeeping this spring with two pkgs of Italians from GA, which I installed 4/17/2010. I have 2 hives in my yard located in an older mature landscaped suburban neighborhood in Falls Church VA (DC suburb). We have large tulip poplars a variety of flowers and vegetables. There is a birdbath and a water fountain in the garden. All new woodenware - hive bodies are 8 frame mediums and screened bottom boards. Hive #1 is robust now with 4 supers ( queen excluder between 3 and 4). Hive #2 is coming along it has 3 supers - not until about a month in did I see that it had 2 marked queens. A few days later I rechecked and it had only one so I am assuming one was killed off. Both hives have hive top feeders and I am still feeding the girls as recommended by instructor and mentor. Did IPM mite checks 5/15 and 6/15 NO mites - yeah!

Hives are raised on cinder blocks in the garden about a foot from each other facing south. This time of the year get sun from about 10 AM - 4:30PM. When it is really hot and humid I prop up the telescoping cover a little to increase ventilation. I would like to keep to just the current 2 hives but concerned(scared) about swarming and would like to know all that I can to prevent it or at best discourage it. Advice welcome.

Thanks for "hearing" me out !

Best,
Tim


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

TripleH said:


> I would like to keep to just the current 2 hives but concerned(scared) about swarming and would like to know all that I can to prevent it or at best discourage it.


Tim, welcome! Count your many blessings, as a member of BANV you are in one of the best teaching communities among smart beekeepers I know. Pat/Jim Haskell, Brenda Keissling, and many others to name a few.

I tell my new students who get bees, to be prepared to have many more hives in the future. They multiply like rabbits! You can try to manage for swarming but (as they said in Jurrasic Park), nature will find a way to procreate, and swarming is hive procreation. 

The other factor is, you say you want to keep just 2 hives, but when you get really bitten by the bee fever, you won't ever feel like you've gotten enough hives!


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## hemichuck (Oct 27, 2009)

I think everybody should let their hives swarm whenever they please,especially you guys in the Louisville Kentucky area!
If they happen to occupy someones house,they can just call me and I will come and get them.Thanks in advance for your cooperation.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Well my take on it is this, I do all I can to discourage swarming for all the reasons given but when one does and I can't get it back, I sit back and try to enjoy this one of the many wonders of the honeybee (while trying not to worry about the neighbors shed or house or grill that they decided to take up residence in)....I call it bitter-sweet.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

If i lived out in the country I would let my hives swarm and I'd have enough hives to still get some honey for myself and friends. I believe swarming is the normal and healthy way for bees to multiply in a natural setting. 
But I live on the edge of my village boundaries on a 1/3 acre with neighbors on all sides, and technically I don't think the zoning allows for 'livestock'. I know they have forced another villager to get rid of his 4 female chickens, citing the same 'no livestock' law, even though he claimed they were pets. I'm keeping my hives in back of the garden, beekeeping sort of 'under the radar'. One trusted neighbor knows about them.
The zoning board would very likely ask me to remove my hives if some neighbor complained about a swarm in their yard. So, I'm trying to avoid trouble and will do all I can to keep down possible swarms.


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## RAlex (Aug 18, 2001)

Tim ...if you want to maintain just two hives at your location, ya might want to consider
assuming they are very strong early in the year, taking a nuc from the strong hives and replacing the frames with drawn comb. I am not sure off the yearly cycles in your area so timing is important. Sell the nuc`s or set up an out yard. I also supered early and planned on replaceing some of my winter DO`s with nucs . At the time I inspected them very were just too strong not to swarm. Consider it and discuss it with some of the local beeks as to the timing...Rick


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## pcord (May 14, 2009)

Here is a second year beekeeper's (me) personal story on swarming. Last year I was OK with the idea. Didn't try to make it happen, but felt good about increasing the feral population and didn't mind when they swarmed. I was pumped to have a "local" queen and was sure she'd do better through the winter than hive 2's package queen. Sure enough, she did. Hive 2 died out come Feb and the local gal made it. Only problem was she never startred laying again and that hive sputtered out 8 weeks later without any new bees.

Again, I'm all for adding to the feral pop, but when your bird in the hand leaves (your well-mated, well-laying queen), your two in the bush (virgin left behind) may turn into a bum. I still treat swarming with ambivalence like most of us probably do.


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## clarkfarm (Apr 13, 2009)

Here is a third year beekeeper's experience. Started with one nuc in the Spring of 2008. It was very strong going into winter. In early May of 2009 it swarmed. I caught the swarm. Did not requeen either hive. Got about equal amounts of honey from each hive to total 82 pounds of honey -- more than enough for family and friends. And there was honey in both hives in the Spring.

I know I am not the average beekeeper because I want the bees mostly for bees in the gardens and to help keep honeybees in circulation rather than to maximize a honey yield. Even if I had not caught the swarm, I would have been satisfied with one half as much honey; i.e. the amount I got from the original hive, which by the way is super strong again this year but has not swarmed. I do not want more than 3 hives so I have no interest in splitting hives. I live in the country on 40 acres so do not have to worry about the neighbors. For me swarming is not a big issue -- if I can catch the swarm I will but if not, that's okay. Just my take on it but do want to state that swarming does not necessarily leave you with out honey the year of the swarm.


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## Eyeshooter (Mar 8, 2008)

fatscher said:


> Without trying to pick your words apart, I'm not sure I'd agree with that statement. It implies that swarming depends on your management. Bees will do whatever bees do despite your best management, sometimes..


I believe you understood the intent of my words. Naturally, these are insects and you cannot make them not do something if they truly get it in their heads to do it. My meaning was proper management will help reduce the chance of swarming and still allow them to multiply within your apiary. Nothing in beekeeping is foolproof. Just ask my bees!


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

My neighbors have been pretty good to me, so I'll be pretty good to them and keep my bees from swarming. If one part of that equation changes, then so will the other part. :lpf:


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We have all reason to believe that proper management reduces swarming to an insignificant level. There is an economic threshold, but I would rather push the bees by over dividing, than loose a significant portion to swarms. Sure it costs more in labor, but in a commercial setting, a hive that swarms will make you very little honey. 

As far as swarms contributing to the feral population, I must disagree, If anything, you are polluting the feral gene pool with commercial genes, and making the chances of feral survival decrease. Please, keep your domestic bees under control. We need the strong feral hives as a reserve of genetic material.

Roland Diehnelt
Linden Apiary, Est. 1852


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## victory1504 (Mar 27, 2010)

TripleH, you were wise to avoid the deep supers. It is a real advantage to have ALL interchangible frames. 
I like my hives more spread-out ( about 10 feet apart ). Space is not a problem for me.
Mine are in a lightly wooded area so they get light shade most of the day. Many beeks don't have a choice.
You need 3 mediums for a brood nest. A big brood nest lets your queen reach her full potential. You will have as much or more than 2 deeps. It helps prevent swarming too.
Second-year queens are far more likely to swarm. You can buy a queen or let them raise their own.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

I find it interesting that some of the same people who will be judgmental and say that swarming is a result a 'bad' management are also some of the same people who dis-obey their local laws and ordinances and keep bees within city limits without properly registering their hives as the rules call for.

So, following the rules of 'good' beekeeping is ok, but it doesn't matter if you follow the rules of the town, which by the same thinking then makes one a 'bad' citizen I guess.

OR, we could do away with the judgmental language and attitudes altogether and say that depending on where you are keeping the bees, it is more in the beekeepers interest to try to prevent swarming if they do not want their bees to invade a neighbors property or if they need to maintain a population level for production purposes.

Funny how following rules and being 'good' or 'bad' at something depends on if you think those rules are important enough to you to follow.

Big Bear


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Bigbear, I agree with you that the use of terms like 'proper management' or 'poor beekeeping practices' have little place in discussions of swarming. Swarming can be either desirable or undesirable depending on each beekeeper's individual goals and situation. There is no reason to imply irresponsibility or a lack of skill. There are various ways to discourage swarming, but I don't think it's ever 100% preventable. In the end, bees decide what they need to do. 

As to contaminating feral colonies....well isn't it a bit hard to 'keep your domestic colonies under control' if your drones are mating with feral virgin queens a few miles away, or if feral drones from a few miles away are mating with your virgin queens? Roland, what methods do you suggest?
Reminds me of West Side Story.


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## TripleH (Jun 5, 2010)

Hello again,
Thanks for all the replies. In posting (#9 on this thread) I was hoping to get replies offering specific techniques to help reduce the chances of my hives swarming. Thanks again !!
Best,
Tim


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## toms1arrow (May 7, 2010)

I have 2 new hives from nucs this year. 1st year beek. Both have filled most of second deep. I dont see how it is possible to keep to just 2 hives and not let your bees swarm. When the population explodes next spring how do you control the population without increasing your hive number? Oh Yea, split and give them away. Only way I see. How about it?


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Answer=Management-Beekeeper(not boxkeeper)

Pulling fully capped frames of brood and honey. Replace them with empty comb. Put the capped brood above the supers and an excluder so the brood hatches and you can keep empty comb in the brood nest for the queen to lay. Don't let the hive get a solid band of honey above the brood frames below. Keep every other frame in the honey supers directly above the brood open.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Beeslave said:


> Don't let the hive get a solid band of honey above the brood frames below. _Keep every other frame in the honey supers directly above the brood open._


When you say that, you mean _without_ an excluder in that particular situation, correct? Do you intend that this would provide a place for the queen to lay if she runs out of room in the brood box(es)?...laying in the honey supers? Can you clarify this a little please? thanks!


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## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

Tim,
What I want to know is why onone has asked you why you are feeding and using a queen excluder at the same time. If you want a honey crop stop feeding.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>As Mike Bush has said let them do what comes natural!

Well, yes and no. I don't want them to swarm. I want them to make honey, and if they look like I can't head off a swarm, I want them in my equipment, not the neighbors tree... a swarm in my hive is worth about $80 or more. A swarm in the neighbors tree isn't worth anything to me...

They don't make much if any surplus when they swarm.

Swarm control is one of the primary jobs of a beekeeper...


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## Peakebrook (Apr 18, 2010)

If there is a positive aspect of swarming, it does break the mite cycle.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Peakebrook said:


> If there is a positive aspect of swarming, it does break the mite cycle.


So does splitting the hive, removing the queen then introducing her back in the form of a combine, or re-queening. I agree with a lot of the info here as far as prevention goes and MB said it best "one of the primary goals of a beekeeper is swarm prevention". If you only want a certain number of hives then split for swarm prevention and sell or give away the nucs. Great way to fund your hobby. It seems I have more ongoing queen problems/issues in hives that swarm vs. hives I split.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> one of the primary goals of a beekeeper is swarm prevention


 I guess in that case, it's a good thing I don't consider myself a beekeeper.

I don't disagree with the benefits of splitting and other methods of preventing swarms if circumstances require it, but I don't agree with the implication that it is something that is necessary for every situation. I also disagree with the implication that it is a "good" or "bad" thing to have hives swarm.

Big Bear


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Omie - I suggest controlling your drone populations. Keep just enough around to meet your needs for mating queens. They do not contribute to honey production, so you may actually get more honey with few drones. I do not mind my queens mating with feral drones, and I help prevent alterations top the feral gene pool. 

I can not speak for Beeslave, but she said

"Put the capped brood above the supers and an excluder"

so i think she means what she says. We do similar manipulations with success.

The question is, do you want to make money, or just have fun?

Roland


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Well, if you have no interest in raising bees and no interest in raising honey, and just like to play with bees, I think letting them swarm is a great idea... but how do you make up your winter losses when they ones that thrive swarm and the ones that die don't reproduce... I guess if you have time to watch for swarms and catch them... but I don't...


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> but I don't...


perhaps for you. 

One might consider there are other motivations for working with bees other than honey production and mass breeding for resale purposes as well.

note that I am not exactly saying everyone will want to allow hives to swarm willy nilly, I believe I have agreed that there are several circumstances where managing swarming is of benefit, depending on the individuals intent.

but because we do not always know what every other person's intentions as to why they are working with bees, that doesn't automatically make their methods, if they perhaps include allowing swarming for example, necessarily able to be judged as 'good' or 'bad'

as most folks know, the reasons for working with bees is often as unique as there are individuals doing it.

swarming to feral hives or ''wild' hives ( if said hives are in europe or land of origin anyway) is a natural and healthy event, it's not 'bad' or 'good' is simply is what it is.

splitting is not preventing swarming necessarily, it is a human managed version of swarming to be of more benefit to a beekeeper.

So, my ultimate response to the title question.."What's So Bad About Swarming?" I will say nothing about is 'bad' at all. It may be inconvenient for a beekeeper with a purpose that requires keeping bees in one place, however.

Big Bear


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Big Bear - What do the people that live in your area think when they have to pay some one to remove the bees from a wall in their house? Have you not caused them an injury by not controlling your bees? If you where a cattle, horse. pig or sheep farmer, and let your animals propagate, and then set them free, would that be fair to your neighbors? I wonder how many people die from bees stings, compared to cattle, etc?

Please do not take offense by this line of questioning, it is only inquiry.

Roland


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Roland said:


> The question is, do you want to make money, or just have fun?


Roland, you must be having a bang-up time havin' fun...cause, you told me you ain't makin' money!!!:lpf:


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> Big Bear - What do the people that live in your area think when they have to pay some one to remove the bees from a wall in their house?


Roland, can't say for sure what they think, none of them have informed me of having swarms from my bees, in a bee yard miles away, in a protected forest, in their house yet.

Not to say that bees from my bee yard couldn't make the trip. In any event, I imagine it would be the same thing as they would think if it were a feral colony that took up residence there. Man that's inconvenient.

Big Bear


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Fatscher - read it carefully, I said "want" to make money. I also want to find an honest women. Just because we want something, does not mean it always happens. Your just jealous of all the "fun" I'm havin.


Roland


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Roland said:


> Your just jealous of all the "fun" I'm havin.


Dang it you read my mind!!!


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