# Feeding Sub Response



## JSL

I think we often fail to see the forest for the trees when feeding pollen subs. Randy Oliver did a nice objective evaluation this past summer and I think two key findings were glossed over by some beekeepers. One, feeding ANY sub greatly improved production over no sub. Two, artificial diets come close to the response of pollen fed colonies, but at a much greater cost. In just looking at protein levels alone, 9% natural pollen patties outperformed the group average of 16% protein for all subs combined. To me, that suggests subs are 44% less efficient/effective. Now there is something to work on! There is far more to a diet than protein content or "magical" ingredients…

Any thoughts? :lookout:


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## Ian

JSL said:


> I think we often fail to see the forest for the trees when feeding pollen subs ... There is far more to a diet than protein content or "magical" ingredients…
> any thoughts?


Any thoughts? Yes,
"There is far more to a diet than protein content or "magical" ingredients…" :lookout: 

The most important factor I feel is timely application of a protein source, what ever that may be. The most important factor is the beekeeper paying attention and knowing what is going on. :scratch:


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## cheezer32

I've pondered why patties are usually double that of what I see most people claim natural pollen is. I'm a "fitness" guy to a point in my spare time, and the same holds true for humans, variety is more important than the amount. We can consume 100 grams a protein in a shake, however without all the proper amino acids and other ingredients our body just passes it through and it was wasted and in the end your body may have only used 30 grams of that protein. 

Maybe we should market patties as "useable protein" if we know what that is  

I know a lot of protein topics have been covered lately, but there is so much that is needed to be a "complete" formula. They need to have the nutrients to make a complete protein, have the right vitamins and minerals to MOVE it through there body (often overlooked in human fitness it does no good if it can't get to where its going) and then the right things to remove the used energy (waste) from the body. It's a complete cycle of nutrition way past "protein" that's far to complex for me at this time. Although I do like learning on the subject and reading the articles and responses that a lot of people here on beesource post. I think it's an important part of beekeeping today.

Go to GNC and look at how many ingredients are in a protein shake, TONS, read some of the labels, more and more are starting to focus more on every ingredient that makes the protein useable in our body than just the old "50 grams of protein per scoop" labels. Maybe the same should be thought of in the beekeeping world?

Per JSL, if the subs are roughly 44% less effective, we are feeding double what the bees are using compared to natural pollen.. right? AKA, in the end there still only using an average of 9% protein from your 16% patty, which to me figures out to a lot of wasted protein.


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## squarepeg

good points jsl. the other thing i gleaned from randy's trial was that once field pollen became available there were no build up differences seen between the groups including the negative control suggesting that patties could be a waste if field pollen is available.

on the other hand, (personal communication with randy) even if there is field pollen available but the weather precludes flying for days on end having a patty available may be of benefit during the early build up period.

i haven't supplemented in the past but with this year's winter clusters being smaller and with the goal of splitting nucs from most colonies i am giving it some consideration, especially since our weather that time of year is unpredictable.


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## camero7

I Have found that patties are very beneficial for my nucs in the spring, even with natural pollen available. I believe they can utilize them at night and days when there's no/little flying weather and the buildup is much better in those nucs than ones without the patties.


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## JSL

squarepeg said:


> on the other hand, (personal communication with randy) even if when there is field pollen available but the weather precludes flying for days on end having a patty available may be of benefit during the early build up period.


I think this is important and perhaps to Ian's point that we need to know what is going on in the colonies. When we looked at patty consumption rates, they increased at night and on cool wet days. The bees would still consume them when natural pollen was available, perhaps to offset low supply on marginal days.


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## apis maximus

JSL said:


> I think this is important and perhaps to Ian's point that we need to know what is going on in the colonies.


Dr. Latshaw or anybody else for that matter...how do you go about "knowing" what is going on in the colonies?...how do you go about "reading" a hive when it comes to understanding what their nutritional status is? And once you've done the "reading", what is your next step in addressing your finding?

Especially when it comes to pollen/protein. There are tell tale signs in each hive that tell a story that has been unfolding for at least 3 weeks prior to one "discovering" a problem.

Not trying to change the subject you so timely brought to the front burner, but I think it is a critical first step.


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## Ian

apis maximus said:


> Dr. Latshaw or anybody else for that matter...how do you go about "knowing" what is going on in the colonies?...


You gotta sit in on one of Randy Oliver's presentations. Search through www.scientificbeekeeping.com , he talks about reading the brood in the nest. I like the way he presents things to the common beekeepers train of though; well Joe? are those larvae wet or dry?
If you want an healthy robust building hive, keep those larvae swimming!


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## squarepeg

Ian said:


> are those larvae wet or dry?
> If you want an healthy robust building hive, keep those larvae swimming!


that was the other really good point i picked up from randy. turns out the limiting factor for jelly production is protein and not carbohydrate. the take home lesson is the importance of getting a feel for how 'wet or dry' the larvae are in terms of the amount jelly seen in the cells.


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## apis maximus

Yes, Randy's site, speeches, articles, presentations and the wealth of references he presents. I am a big fan and "consumer" of his materials.
I am surprised however, how little of that vast pool of information has/is trickled down to the level of main stream beekeeping.


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## Ian

apis maximus said:


> Y how little of that vast pool of information has/is trickled down to the level of main stream beekeeping.


I dont know about that. I think many beekeepers are more reluctant to jump on the band wagon because of his work.


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## JSL

I think Randy attempts to distill research studies down to be applicable for the beekeeper, but unfortunately it still seems to be information overload. Beekeeping, along with most other agriculture, is still pretty basic when you get right down to it. Provide food, water, shelter and reduce disease loads and stand back to let the genetic potential do the rest.

Reading colonies is one of the most challenging things to teach new beekeepers. It is challenging for me to walk into an operation and give great insight with just one inspection, because I do not know where the colony was two weeks ago, or where it will be two weeks from now. I can provide an overall assessment at the current time of inspection, but then need to ask questions of the beekeeper. Sometimes is is glaringly obvious they are in trouble, so then how do you get them turned around? Go back to the basics.

I think reading colonies is more difficult than reading some other livestock. Any producer I know wouldn't dream of going a day without feeding and watering their livestock and still expect good performance and production.


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## JSL

squarepeg said:


> turns out the limiting factor for jelly production is protein and not carbohydrate.


Take it one step further... The limiting factor is what is not there. Royal jelly is approximately 70% water, 12% protein and 12% sugar. I see a great response in my cell builders when I feed patties, even with pollen coming in and give them a 20% sugar syrup.


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## squarepeg

JSL said:


> Take it one step further... The limiting factor is what is not there. Royal jelly is approximately 70% water, 12% protein and 12% sugar. I see a great response in my cell builders when I feed patties, even with pollen coming in and give them a 20% sugar syrup.


understood jsl, many thanks. that makes a lot of sense for cell builders, especially with a large number of grafts in them.


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## Ian

JSL said:


> Beekeeping, along with most other agriculture, is still pretty basic when you get right down to it. Provide food, water, shelter and reduce disease loads and stand back to let the genetic potential do the rest.


Heck of a good start though. We will let professionals like yourself develop the ultimate mix or supplements for our mixes. And we will do the rest. Trick is to initiate that basic and keep them all in place.


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## JBJ

wrong thread

Although weighing freshly emerged workers should give an idea of how well provisioned a larvae was during development.


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## Roland

Ian wrote:

are those larvae wet or dry?

Winner Winner Chicken dinner. 

With all lack of humility, I believe that some of the knowledge and training of years past has been overlooked. In our world, we still sit on stools, not bobcat seats, and inspect the brood every 12-14 days from frost gone until almost time for the leaves to change. Has the time spent on moving bees been taken away from time "Working" bees? For us, checking the brood has always been "What you do" for a long time.

Crazy Roland
Not migratory, est. 1852


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## dback

Joe……we know we fall short in having a "pollen substitute" with current products. So where are you (or researchers) looking for that missing "X-factor)……balance, minerals, lipids, etc.? What is the focus and where do we go from here?


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## David LaFerney

To the OP - "any sub is better than none (paraphrased)" That is my main takaway, and it confirms my observations. I have mostly used the two leading brands in the study, and I don't see a performance difference between them. But I'm pretty sure that feeding more in general and sub whenever possible results in larger populations of healthy bees. Which means I have to manage swarming (and robbing) more intensively. But it's a good investment for me. 

I don't have vast experience or knowledge about bee biology so it's a simple anecdote for me. 

Providing better nutrition = larger populations of healthier bees = more profit - as long as I do my part.

I recon that would be true no matter what kind of livestock we were talking about.


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## sqkcrk

Ian said:


> well Joe? are those larvae wet or dry? If you want an healthy robust building hive, keep those larvae swimming!


Something Roland, right here on beesource, has been saying for years. Crazy Roland.


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## JSL

Hi dback,

I can't speak for the other researchers/companies... If my benchmark is natural pollen, then I think the nutrition aspect is pretty good, although I still do work in that area. My graduate work at ASU dealt with visual and olfactory stimuli, which I think also plays into artificial food sources for bees. Just because I can formulate a diet that is nutritionally similar to natural pollen, doesn't mean it looks, feels, smells or even tastes the same. In a nutshell, that is what is interesting to me right now. How do we make diets that more closely mimic natural pollen?


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## drlonzo

JSL - Sounds like it is time for a "double blind" tast test. I would suggest getting people to do the litmus paper test first to make sure they are natural "tasters" then use those people to get a good understanding of what pollen really does taste like. 

As has been stated many times getting an understanding of the chemical, mineral, & vitamin makeup is the easy part. Getting the taste and smell down is the difficult part..

I wish you much luck in getting it figured out as it would be the "lynch pin" that makes pollen sub totally usable by the bees.


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## David LaFerney

Taste and smell are just how organisms perform chemical analysis to avoid poison and favor high value nutrition. The reason sugar, fat and salt taste so good to us is that for 99.99% of human history they were nutritionally valuable and scarce. Now that they are plentiful we still gorge on them as though we don't know when we will get more - Because that used to be the case. Maybe given enough time under these conditions lettuce and broccoli will become more desirable than ice cream and bbq ribs.

Similarly it might be possible to make a bee suppliment which is more palatable, but less nutritious. 

It always seems to me that my bees eat megabee more readily, but Ultrabee produces identical results as far as I can tell. Neither observation is very scientific though.


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## beepro

David, the megabee is stiff and chewy. But once they are in the hive to soaked up the
beehive moisture from the bees then they became soft and to the point of sticky soft when swollen up. Is this
what you are seeing too? Mine has the orange and anise flavor. And the bees love them too. Does all megabee sub has the
orange flavor to them? I almost thought that they are the candy that I can chew on.


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## David LaFerney

I always get bulk pollen sub and make hard candy blocks - the recipe is the same other than the brand of sub. But yes it looks and smells like something you could eat.


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## JSL

beepro said:


> I almost thought that they are the candy that I can chew on.


Most subs aren't too bad, but my family is a bit leery of tasting formulas from me. :shhhh: I tease them that some of the formulas would bake up into some nice cookies.


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## apis maximus

David LaFerney said:


> It always seems to me that my bees eat megabee more readily, but Ultrabee produces identical results as far as I can tell. Neither observation is very scientific though.


Same here. 
Ultrabee (as in ready made patties format) dries out faster in my case, and then just sits there. More time for beetles to notice it and get under it and to it.

*@beepro*: regarding Megabee patties, "*But once they are in the hive to soaked up the beehive moisture from the bees then they became soft and to the point of sticky soft when swollen up. Is this what you are seeing too?*"

Again, I noticed the same thing.


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## Keith Jarrett

apis maximus said:


> Same here.
> Ultrabee (as in ready made patties format) dries out faster in my case, and then just sits there. .


Ah, you gotta try the good stuff. 

Looked up some old post back in the mid to late 2000's on sub topics, not much has change here, other than the names.


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## JSL

Keith,

Do you think there is really much change in beekeeping? It is still the same size box of bugs... We just find new materials, toys to move them around, have to find ways around new challenges, but it still comes back to the health of the colony and the beekeepers involved.

I always enjoy the insight from the more experienced beekeepers as they keep the rest of us humble. Not too many things are brand new, but many good ideas are quickly forgotten, so we have to talk about them every so often.


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## grozzie2

JSL said:


> Do you think there is really much change in beekeeping? It is still the same size box of bugs...


In the short term, maybe not so much, but over slightly longer time frames, yes, the changes are big. I haven't been around the scene that long, just going into 5th year, but reading here on beesource, I often run into the reference to 'pre varroa', which was a big game changer. CCD was apparently a catastrophic game changer for many. I talk to old-timers on the prairies, and they wax poetic about 'the good old days' when they shook packages in the spring, then gassed the bees in the fall. Times change, that model doesn't work financially anymore. I talk to folks in our local area, and they wax poetically about 'the good old days', when island beekeepers would happily shake packages like crazy in the spring, just to keep populations under control, and send those packages out to the praries folks who needed new stock in the spring. Today, those same folks struggle to keep a box of bugs alive over the winter.

Other outside influences really do change the game tremendously as well. 20 years ago, the thought of sitting down over a morning wake-up coffee, and having an online conversation with other beekeepers, total strangers, thousands of miles removed, about how various feed supplements compare, absolutely unheard of. Yet today, there are folks making decisions on how to manage a business, based on these conversations.

A lot changes, but, it's gradual, and just ends up incorporated into day to day way of doing things, we dont even realize it's happening, till looking way back and do the comparison. Very few changes are drastic overnight 'sudden game changers', altho varroa may fall into that category.


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## David LaFerney

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ah, you gotta try the good stuff.
> 
> Looked up some old post back in the mid to late 2000's on sub topics, not much has change here, other than the names.


Your product is great, but the last time I checked it was unobtainium for hobbyists in the southeast. Has that changed?


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## apis maximus

JSL said:


> My graduate work at ASU dealt with visual and olfactory stimuli, *which I think also plays into artificial food sources for bees*. Just because I can formulate a diet that is nutritionally similar to natural pollen, doesn't mean it looks, feels, smells or even tastes the same.


A major role indeed. Not just in bees, but it turns out to be the case in everything and everybody that eats. Like I said in a similar conversation, we humans, have been tweaking diets for the Animal Kingdom an for ourselves ever since we came around. It only happens that lately, we've got more pieces of the puzzle on the table...still very fuzzy, but way more information/data than say 100 years ago. 

Look, we can make cattle eat chicken litter, or turkey litter...or cardboard and saw dust for that matter, not by just balancing out the nutrients, but really fooling them by manipulating their taste. Molases, sweeteners, other additives and such...Oh boy, we have come a long way...And guess what, they gain weight, and end up on our plate...

You might say, well yeah, but those are ruminants...OK, how about dogs and cats, that by their nature are strictly carnivores, we make them eat grains, fibers, cellulose and God knows what else...by the same way of manipulating their perception of taste. If we were not to manipulate their taste, they would not touch the darn things...no matter how balanced they will be nutritionally.

And they'll "thrive"... so the story goes...And if you look at them, they sure seem to thrive in their "shinny coats, and flashing their brilliant smile". The only things that are brilliant in this scheme, are: first, the fact that we came such a long way in figuring out how to "fool" someone's taste and make them eat something that otherwise they would not, and the second brilliant thing is the Marketing of these concepts.

So yes, I am absolutely sure we'll end up fooling the bees too...sooner, rather than later. Matter of fact we are doing it as we speak...some of us are better than others.



> How do we make diets that more closely mimic natural pollen?


Are you referring here to "fooling" their olfactory/taste systems?

Great topic doc...Keep them coming.


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## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> Keith,
> 
> Do you think there is really much change in beekeeping? It is still the same size box of bugs... .


A huge change, the ones that haven't changed call it CCD.


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## camero7

Keith Jarrett said:


> A huge change, the ones that haven't changed call it CCD.


Or neonic poisoning.


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## JSL

grozzie2,

You have some great points! Everything comes and goes. I am going on 30 years working bees and it is hard to believe! I enjoyed keeping bees pre-Varroa and I enjoy keeping them now. It has been a pleasure working with queen producers in Hawaii for the past 10-15 years and thinking, wow this is what beekeeping was like before Varroa and in paradise to boot! It has been so long I have almost forgotten what it is like to have bees without Varroa.

Apis,

You are spot on. Isn't it amazing what we can turn into "food". It is just a matter of fooling the senses. Who cares what's in it as long as it tastes good!

Keith,

You make me . Granted some things do change, but we are still working for the same end product, a box of bees to make honey, pollinate, or sell to beekeepers that "haven't changed".


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## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> but we are still working for the same end product, a box of bees to make honey, pollinate, or sell to beekeepers that "haven't changed".


The goals are the same Joe yes, but how we go about achieving them are 180 degrees from what we use to do, how you get that "box of bees to make honey, pollinate, or sell to beekeepers" has change by a mile, unless I'm the only one that's working a hella lot harder than I use too.


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## apis maximus

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ah, you gotta try the good stuff.


Keith, you're preaching to the choir...don't need to convince me how well your concoction works in your situation.

And besides, you're just serving the big league...just like David says.

Me and my bees are working on our own "stuff", just like so many others...Bees are the great teachers...we, at our best are very poor students.

It's a never ending thing isn't it?


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## Keith Jarrett

apis maximus said:


> It's a never ending thing isn't it?


A.M., I am working on the smaller sales, give me a little more time it's coming.


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## jim lyon

Keith Jarrett said:


> A.M., I am working on the smaller sales, give me a little more time it's coming.


Have you considered expanding your facilities? I've heard California has a really favorable business climate.


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## Keith Jarrett

Jimmy...........

I just hired a construction consultant & project engineer. What the heck it's just money.


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## BernhardHeuvel

I really wonder if feeding subs for spring buildup (or winter buildup) really makes a difference for the honey producer?

I couldn't find any significant difference sub or no sub. There are quite some studies on it in Germany and Switzerland and they also couldn't find a significant effect of feeding subs. So does it really matter when it comes to honey production? How much more honey you get when feeding subs? 10 %? More? Less?


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## TalonRedding

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I really wonder if feeding subs for spring buildup (or winter buildup) really makes a difference for the honey producer?


Never kept bees in Germany , but when sub is put on 1 1/2-2 months before honey flow here, it really does make a big difference. It's a larger work force.....


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## Keith Jarrett

If your main flow doesn't start until june or July you really don't need to feed unless you have lots of splits to make, but if you have early flows it could help. It really depends on your goals and location.


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## Vance G

What a lot of really enjoyable high level dialog. Thanks.


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## JRG13

LOL Jim,

you sure know how to give Keith a hard time!


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## Keith Jarrett

That's what he does best.


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## grozzie2

Keith Jarrett said:


> If your main flow doesn't start until june or July you really don't need to feed unless you have lots of splits to make, but if you have early flows it could help. It really depends on your goals and location.


I'll go a couple steps farther. If you are located in central / northern europe, and the goal is honey, feeding in february, probably to much, to early. Then again, if you are in southern california, and the goal is to pollinate almonds, that same february feeding, to little, to late. Did I hear somebody say 'location, location, location', beekeeping is all about location ?

Our flows from last year looked like this:-










Spring came really late, and the bees didn't really start brooding up till April. As you can see on that graph, first flow started in the middle of May, and we essentially missed it, due to lack of population in the hives. Populations were much better by the beginning of June, and it shows in how much the bees were able to collect. On the first round of measureable flow they put on 10lb, and raised a lot of brood, which allowed them to put on 30lb for the second go at a good flow. I did not feed this colony anything of significance last spring, and it was one of our stronger colonies, in that respect I lucked out choosing which one would go on the scale. But that was just accidental, the real reason this one ended up on the scale was a little more pragmatic, length of extension cords to power it all. It was first in the line, and I needed more extension cords to reach farther down the line.

But, I learned a lot from this exercise. Had I managed to stimulate this colony into raising brood earlier, it would have had a better population on the first flow, and that chart would likely look the same for the arbutus bloom (mid May) as it did for the thimbleberries (early June). Net result would have likely been another 20lb or more of honey. We sell at the gate for $7, and sell all we can produce, so, I'm going to feed them up earlier this year. One of my goals is to have strong populations by May 1, so they are ready to take full advantage of the arbutus. My 'back of the envelope' rough estimate, if I spend 20 bucks on feed, there is a strong probability I'll generate another $140 or so of honey. That's a very good return in my books.

I take flak at times for being the 'prius driving hipster' but, I'm pretty good at math, and I make a living out of measuring things with computers and gadgets in the 'real world'. It just made sense to me, since I do it for everything else, start making measurements with the bees, figure out what is, and what isn't important, then use that information to target our efforts. Things were a little late blooming last spring, but the first flow showed up in the middle of May. If next spring is more normal, it'll happen around May 1, so, I want to ensure we have _at least_ 3 brood rounds emerged prior to that date. At roughly 3 weeks per round, it means I want my bees to start brooding up 9 weeks before May 1. They will get feed going in during the last week of Feb.

I'm getting much better prepared this year, and as time goes on, we'll be taking a lot more measurements of various things. As I have mentioned in other threads, some of my goals include finding ways to get good measurements on both population, and health in the hives. I want metrics that are repeatable, so we can compare this year from colony to colony in a repeatable fashion, and moving forward, develop baselines for comparing year over year. I dont know where all that will lead, but then again, when I set up the scale last spring, I didn't think it would end up giving me a target date for feeding our colonies this spring. Always something to learn.


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## JSL

BernhardHeuvel,

I am not familiar with the studies you mention, but don't doubt the findings. However, Keith and grozzie2 are spot on in my opinion. Feeding should have a specific purpose and timing to achieve an optimal population when it will do the most good. Peak too soon and you may be feeding extra bees before the flow and peak too late and you miss opportunities. Feeding to produce bulk bees may be a little less finely tuned, but none the less, there is an art and a science to it.

grozzie2,

I like the data! Do you know of a reliable battery powered scale? When I was a young student at OSU, there were piles of weight records, all recorded by hand by Vic Thompson who worked with Rothenbuhler. Vic was extremely detailed and I do not know how many hives he had sitting on the old cast iron platform scales each summer, but it was fun data to look over!


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## BernhardHeuvel

We have a strong flow from end of March to end of April most years. Bees start flying in March so this is where the hives get open first time in the year. The first main flow produces half of the year's honey crop. (1/3-1/2 depending on the late flows.) So we are after wintering big populations, because the first flow is collected by the old aunts.

Late summer care is very important to me. I tried different things, including building up population by stimulative feeding in late summer into autumn. Hives build up huge populations. Just to shrink population when temperatures dropped to just about the same size as the other hives that weren't fed. Seemed to me, that the winter cluster size has an optimum that bees head for, no matter what.

So I dropped summer and autumn supplemental feeding with no effects on the honey crops. Instead I take great care there are pollen sources in the environment.

Spring feeding has had no significant effect so far, except I saw Nosema or at least bowl disease in the hives. That may be because most pollen subs here contain real pollen only and the pollen is not irradiated. Also we started a little later, in March. Not 1 1/2 months before the flows. That would be mid February.

The thing is I do not want to build bees but make a honey crop and feeding is costly. There must be a significant effect before I adopt it. I know: location, location. But timing and other things do matter, too. Do have some literature for me I can digg into?


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## JSL

That seems to be tougher as I assume you are using a darker strain of bees which naturally winters with a smaller more conservative cluster. In my experience here in the US, a darker strain such as Carniolans, is less responsive to artificial stimulation. This is not a bad thing, just their nature. Then it sounds like your flow comes on quickly with little time to build an initial spring population. It sounds like you have weighed the costs and the benefits to feeding and stimulating for your area.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Yes, it is difficult to make a good spring crop, especially if Spring comes weeks earlier like 2014. The best thing I figured out is to produce as many winterbees as possible which is why my work is focused on late summer and autumn.

I use both: Carnolian and Buckfast bees. The Carnolian jump starts in Spring and has a rapid Spring buildup. But the Buckfast winters with slightly more bees, soon catches up and broods right through the summer season. (Carnolians stop in bad weather.) I like the Buckfast most and slowly fade out the Carnolians. The difference in winter cluster size doesn't depend on the race of bee. Dark bees, Buckfast and Carnolians do have about the same size of winter cluster. I reckon it is more due to location how big a winter cluster is. 

I have two apiaries in the open field which are exposed to wind. That is the last winter I winter the bees there, I think a more snugly place will produce more bees (read: loose less bees over the wintertime).

However I wonder if an early pollen+sugar sub helps getting a bigger broodnest and more workforce, if I start to feed very early. So around February. Does it make sense or is it a waste of money? In your experience? Randy Oliver writes, that throwing a small slab of pollen sub at the bees will not produce any wonders...rather a prelonged period of feeding will do the trick.

I am just afraid of a cold snap in late Spring which can really kill the bees. 

Bernhard


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## JSL

I run Carniolans and Italians. The Italians seem more receptive to stimulation, in part I think this is due to their larger cluster size early on, which in turn generates more heat. I am working on a write up that I hope to send to ABJ about growing bees in the early season. The work actually stems from our sub feeding trials. Packages are often started with snow on the ground to prevent natural forage in our trials. So far warmth/insulation, sub, honey/syrup and water seem to be the factors I can influence for the most growth. You are right though, cold snaps seem to be very limiting early in the season. Even with polystyrene boxes single digit temps take their toll.


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## grozzie2

JSL said:


> I like the data! Do you know of a reliable battery powered scale?!


I dont know of a reliable battery powered one. The one I use is capable of running on 4 AA batteries, but, I use the wall wart since I have power out there already, it's needed for the computer that does the readings. But that's not the whole story either, the scale itself is very sensative to temperature. I worked out the correction factors, and the data in the original chart is temperature corrected. Most of the inexpensive platform scales, the type that set themselves to zero when turned on, are sensative to temperature changes, and over long periods behave simlar to a thermometer. Here is an example of the raw data, compared to the corrected numbers. Blue line is raw readings, and you can see the change thru the day due to temperature. Red line is same data with a correction applied.



Working out the correction factors is not to difficult, but, somewhat tedious the way I did it. Leave the scale outside, with an anvil sitting on it for a couple months. An anvil is a good dead weight that wont wick up moisture when humidity is high.


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## dback

I'll be looking forward to that research Joe………you still owe me breakfast next time you're in town.

Fear the Fork ;-)


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## JSL

You are right! Enjoyed breakfast and visiting with you an Jr. There are some nice breakfast places here in Ohio if you ever get out this way or need a break from the heat.


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## JSL

Thanks for the advice on the scale! It is interesting to see the detail on your readings, especially with what I assume is morning commencement of foraging?


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## grozzie2

JSL said:


> especially with what I assume is morning commencement of foraging?


Watching the morning foragers depart turned out to be one of the most enlightening parts of the project. Reference my post in the other thread regarding temperatures. Another detail, which is not a surprise, the overall amount leaving is a pretty good proxy for hive population overall. I also realized, when the morning drop for foragers leaving started to get over 1.5 pounds, weight gain took off exponentially. Right now, I'm not sure if that was because population finally got big enough, or if it was because of another bloom starting. But reference my posts above, that's one of the questions we are going to answer somewhat this year. Feed early, feed lots. I want 1.5 pounds of foragers, or more, departing by May 1 this year coming.


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## Ian

Interesting, keep us posted on your project this summer


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## squarepeg

very cool, many thanks grozzie.


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## Eduardo Gomes

In Europe there is some research on the phagostimulants ongoing. Please see:
http://www.bbka.org.uk/local/bigmed...oneybee-health-by-enhancing-the-palatab.shtml
http://w3.gre.ac.uk/~hd18/ento11/abs/post/bridgett.pdf


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## JSL

Eduardo,

I have seen that, but have not been able to follow up on it. Do you know if they published any of their work?


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## JSL

It has been too many years since I read it so I wouldn't know where to look, there was some work done on populations and foraging efficiency. Basically, a larger population was more efficient, with approximately 40,000 bees being optimal. Again, it has been a while, but interesting. I tend to shoot for peak population just after the flow starts, so the colony has a little room to grow into the flow, if it is prolonged.


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## Eduardo Gomes

JSL said:


> I have seen that, but have not been able to follow up on it. Do you know if they published any of their work?


I only know this information. I will browse and if I find something interesting about I 'll post.


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## Eduardo Gomes

>I will browse and if I find something interesting about I 'll post.>
http://www.perryfoundation.co.uk/si...files/reports/Spring convention 1 2013(2).pdf
https://uk.linkedin.com/pub/richard-bridgett/90/967/294
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-014-0324-z
http://www.keele.ac.uk/forensic/people/fdrijfhout/


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## grozzie2

So a follow up on a thread from that time in the winter when we were all 'talking', and not much 'doing' with regards to the bees.



grozzie2 said:


> Things were a little late blooming last spring, but the first flow showed up in the middle of May. If next spring is more normal, it'll happen around May 1, so, I want to ensure we have _at least_ 3 brood rounds emerged prior to that date. At roughly 3 weeks per round, it means I want my bees to start brooding up 9 weeks before May 1. They will get feed going in during the last week of Feb.


Original plan was to start putting the sub on by late February, intending to get our populations up for May 1. Mother nature changed the plan a bit, and we saw a dramatic spike in hive activity (measured with the scale) that started around Feb 1, after seeing the first hazelnut pollen on Jan 28. It's a couple months later now, and we are in the middle of the first early blooms, maples and dandelions are blooming in force.

Last year, with no stimulus feeding in the early season, during the first bloom, we saw morning foragers leaving with the scale showing roughly half a pound of bees leaving in the morning, and on a nice day like we've had in the last few days, the net increase was roughly a pound on a good day, and treading water on a typical day, so approximately double the weight of morning foragers leaving when conditions were good.

This year, with sub fed starting on Feb 10, and continued for 5 weeks putting roughly 2 pounds a week onto the hives, we see a dramatic difference. The colony on the scale is fielding a pound and a half of foragers in the morning, and by day end, we are seeing gains on the order of 2 to 3 pounds. Colonies that had 2 or 3 frames with patches of brood by dandelions last year, have 6 or 7 frames that are wall to wall brood this year.

Yes, the weather has played a big role in this dramatic difference, but in fact it only changed our timing. February was rather warm and dry, so things got going 3 weeks earlier than planned, but then March turned out to be rather cold and wet, which slowed everything down again. BUT, and I think this is the critical thing, by keeping freshly mixed sub on the hives for that stretch, brooding didn't slow down much, and the math on the results is pretty strait forward when I compare last year with this year. I spent between 10 and 20 bucks per colony on feed. During the early bloom last year, the colony was fielding a half pound of foragers, and this year it's fielding 3x that number, albeit a few weeks earlier for the same plants blooming.

After long drawn out discussions over the winter on theories, and ideas, I've got a measured result now, and it shows pretty clearly, if population early is the goal, then spending a few bucks on feed early on pays a substantial dividend.

ofc, this just starts us into phase 2 of the project, can we turn that extra population into a result that is measured via bank deposits, which is the ultimate goal.


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## JSL

grozzie2 said:


> ofc, this just starts us into phase 2 of the project, can we turn that extra population into a result that is measured via bank deposits, which is the ultimate goal.


Thanks for the update! I like your last comment best. All those hungry mouths to feed can be a good thing or a bad thing, all depends on how you manage them.

I too see the most return from feeding sub during the marginal spring weather. It is tough to really push the bees along with the colder temps, but when things warm up a little, the bees really utilize the sub on the rainy days and nights. We have flood warnings and I was out putting sub on this morning between storms. 

Enjoy the season!


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## beepro

Yep, I say sub is the way to go when you time it right.
If it doesn't work then the commercial operation will not be using them
before the almonds. Hobbyist and commercial alike can use some at the right timing.
Definitely you will see more bees and honey this season if mother nature cooperate. $$$


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## Ian

grozzie2 said:


> February was rather warm and dry, so things got going 3 weeks earlier than planned, but then March turned out to be rather cold and wet, which slowed everything down again. BUT, and I think this is the critical thing, by keeping freshly mixed sub on the hives for that stretch, brooding didn't slow down much,


Scaling a hive is one thing, actually reading what the scale is saying is another. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!


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## jim lyon

We fed our prospective cell builders in east Texas quite heavily with pollen sub back in January despite the conditions at the time being quite favorable with fresh pollen already coming in. It seemed overkill at the time but then weather conditions drastically changed with almost a month of continuous cold rainy weather. The sub was clearly invaluable in keeping the hives growing and booming. They continued to make very nice cells when lows dropped into the 20's and highs a few days that didn't get above the 30's.


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## zhiv9

I am curious to know if anyone feeds sub in the fall, during or after varroa treatment and/or feed. Are there any comparative studies on overwintering success/spring cluster size vs fall sub feeding. Fall flows and weather can be hit and miss and the timing always seems tight. We ask the most of the bees born during that time and it would seem that improving nutrition could only help.


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## beepro

I manage my mite treatment thru out the entire year. Feeding them in the Fall has nothing to so with
the mite treatment before or afterward. So when the Fall flow is not there I will feed to build up for the
winter. When there is a flow on there is no need to feed as they will gather enough honey and pollen thru
the Fall going into the winter. Fall feeding and the Spring feeding is not the same thing as one is preparing
for the expansion and the other one is preparing for the filling of the hive with the available resources, locally.


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## Ian

Fall stimulating can get you into trouble with inadequate winter stores. But late summer brood stimulation is where I am targeting... if the conditions favor it. Typically we have lots of late summer pollen but there are years I think its a bit shy. We need to fatten those winter bees up then shut them down.


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## zhiv9

Ian said:


> Fall stimulating can get you into trouble with inadequate winter stores. But late summer brood stimulation is where I am targeting... if the conditions favor it. Typically we have lots of late summer pollen but there are years I think its a bit shy. We need to fatten those winter bees up then shut them down.


This is more what I was thinking, provide support for existing fall resources and help make up for a failed or partially failed fall flow. Our fall flow tends to come in the last week of August/first week of September and that doesn't allow for a lot of time between pulling the last boxes and first frost.


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## squarepeg

last fall we had more pollen going into the hives compared to what i had observed in the preceding years. the dry weather however prevented a good nectar flow, which in turn limited the brooding of overwintering bees, which then in turn led to smaller clusters and low hive weights. strong winter clusters are even more important when spring arrives late like it has these past two years, and i'm guessing this would be especially so in the northern climes where winter is longer. i suppose that either protein or carbohydrate could be the limiting factor and it makes sense to provide both during fall brood up if there is not adequate field forage to achieve reliable overwintering strength.


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## Ian

Drop some patties in mid August and see what transpires
It's what those blueberry pollination hives need during or asap after they are pulled from the fields


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## Ben Little

I am trying to focus on better nutrition this year and feeding more sub. Our season is so short that we can't afford a single drop in production, I plan to feed 5-6 pounds before blueberries and send out the hives with 2 pounds and when they come back will put on more if they look like they are pollen deprived in their combs. I will be putting on more sub the first week of September to boost production for winter bees  
We are using this > http://www.beetechprotein.com/ Made in Canada.


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## jean-marc

I looked at the link and did not notice a list of ingredients. What reason(s) did you choose that product Ben?

Jean-Marc


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## high rate of speed

totally agree.nice website but that was all?????


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## high rate of speed

Same as "ob" top secret. Lol


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## zhiv9

Here's the recipe. It is derived from a Dave Mendes recipe. 

http://www.ontariobee.com/sites/ontariobee.com/files/document/Homemade Protein Patty Recipe_0.pdf

In a large Tech Transfer Team study it outperformed Global and Beepro.


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## Ben Little

zhiv9 said:


> Here's the recipe. It is derived from a Dave Mendes recipe.
> 
> http://www.ontariobee.com/sites/ontariobee.com/files/document/Homemade Protein Patty Recipe_0.pdf
> 
> In a large Tech Transfer Team study it outperformed Global and Beepro.


Thanks, you beat me to it 

Les Eccles did a presentation about them at our AGM and showed the results in more depth, I already had my patties ordered before the meeting. I get mine from Dancing Bee in Ontario. Apparently the recipe was tweaked a bit and they added Dr. Latshaw's additive and substituted some of the gran sugar for fructose. 
We also bought some BeePro+ because we never had it before and wanted to see how it worked with our bees.


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## Ian

The mix I am using;
10lbs Brewers yeast
10lbs Soyflour
5lbs whole dried egg
5lbs irradiated pollen
1/2 cup lemon Juice
1/2 cup canola oil
20lbs honey (salvaged melter honey)
20lbs HFCS 

It mixes and pours real well, stiffens up over night to cut and wrap into patties and without adding water it stays soft. My drill mixer has been sitting in the shop for a week now, and the mix left on the beater is stil pliable

Cut the water guys! Your mix will stiffen up but not dry out.


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## JSL

Ian, why the half cup of Canola? Just out of curiosity, did you calculate the protein content of your patty? 

The bees love honey in patties, but it is tough for a lot of guys to do that... I am sure you will be pleased with the consumption.


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## zhiv9

The oil helps keep the patties from getting hard and dried out.


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## Ian

Oh Joe just get to the point, tell me my flaw.  I bumped the sugars to help increase consumption. I put in the oil for fat. 

What say you!


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## mgolden

Made some patties with 4.5lbs of sugar and 1.5lbs of BeePro, and water, canola oil, lemon juice and bit of vitamins. 

The hives consume a 3/4lb patty in about a two week time frame.


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## beepro

mgolden said:


> Made some patties with 4.5lbs of sugar and 1.5lbs of BeePro, and water, canola oil, lemon juice and bit of vitamins.
> 
> The hives consume a 3/4lb patty in about a two week time frame.



So what is the other measurement(proportion) for the...and water, canola oil, lemon juice and bit of vitamins?


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## BernhardHeuvel

So I gave it a try and so far the bees _do_ respond to it with tons of brood. It really helped the bees to get the brood going through March, where pollen gathering was restricted due to bad weather. All patties were consumed completely. 

It was just a single feed and I am looking forward to what it does to the (early) honey crop compared to the controls.


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## JSL

Ian,

Your flaw is that you do not account for vitamin and mineral content. :shhhh: My questions were to understand your reasoning... There is nothing wrong with the bulk ingredients. Again, why the Canola and why the 1/2C? Oil does little to help with drying as it is hydrophobic. The honey and HFC are hygroscopic and do more to help with patty consistency.


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## zhiv9

JSL said:


> Oil does little to help with drying as it is hydrophobic


Maybe dry wasn't the correct word, oil helps keep the patty soft. Helps keep it from hardening.


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## jim lyon

Will melter honey contain high levels of hmf?


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## BernhardHeuvel

JSL said:


> Your flaw is that you do not account for vitamin and mineral content.


Is it? What vitamins and minerals can you find in brewer's yeast? Sure there is a lot of vitamin C in lemon juice, for a start.


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## JSL

BernhardHeuvel,

You are correct in the sense that all food stuffs contain some levels of vitamins and minerals. But I would venture to assume that Ian would never consider feeding a ration to his cows that was not properly balanced beyond bulk ingredients. Again, you are correct that lemon juice does contain vitamin C, but honey bees do not appear to require an external source of vitamin C. The majority of organisms can synthesize vitamin C. Humans just happen to be one the exceptions that cannot.


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## Ian

JSL said:


> Ian,
> 
> Your flaw is that you do not account for vitamin and mineral content. :shhhh:


LOL ha ha yes. You need to get that stuff of your into BeeMaid.
The canola oil is to bump available fat. Is 1/2 for a 70 lbs mix overkill? It helps make for a less 'sticky' patty. And no nutritionalist working on this. Just a mix gleaned off all conversations here on beesource. 

Oh, and my earlier comment was intended as toung in cheek. I search this forum FOR your feedback Joe!


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## Ian

jim lyon said:


> Will melter honey contain high levels of hmf?


That was my fear also... But... I have 3 barrels nobody wants and I prepared it masterfully intended to salvage the honey for sale. It's premium stuff. 

My thinking, fed in the spring where flight is continual should help relieve issues. It's one of those thing where I'm trying to find the best use of my resources


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## Ian

Joe you mentioned adding vit and mineral beyond bulk I ingredients to our livestock feeds. You are right. We target general requirements for each specific grouping of livestock based off feed analysis. That sounds specific but it's not really, just add some general vit&min with calcium here, vit&min with selenium there. Vit A at times specific to gestation. 

With bees... Those general requirements are unknown. So I guess you could call it general adding general vit&min to bee feed. . Unless you have specifics on hand 

Also remember ruminants synsisize more of what they need than mono gastric. Step into a hog barn and a nutritionalist is pretty much on staff


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## mgolden

beepro said:


> So what is the other measurement(proportion) for the...and water, canola oil, lemon juice and bit of vitamins?


4.5lbs white sugar
1.5lbs BeePro
1/8 tsp of vitamins
1 liter of warm water
2Tbsp lemon juice
1/4 cup canola oil

Plus a further cup of soy flour and a cup of BeePro as mix was a bit runny. Used the soy flour because I had bought some but think 2 cups of BeePro would be fine.

Placed 3/4-1 lb between two sheets of wax paper and flattened to approx. 1/2 inch and trimmed excess wax paper. Placed on top of the frames. Bees chewed through the wax paper from the under side between the frames and also work at the sides of the patty. Between the canola oil and wax paper, patty stays pliable and is consumed in about two weeks. I also have some sugar blocks on top of the frames.

Placed extra in a ice cream pail with lid on in the fridge.


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## Ian

Mgolden try cutting the water and replacing with HFCS. It will set up nicer than water.


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## mgolden

Consistency is no problem with above mixture. I was in one hive about a week later and patty was still quite pliable. However, will keep HFCS in the memory bank! 

Just adding to your thoughts that sugar content and canola oil seems to help with consumption. I have never used commercial patties other than the first year with packaged bees. Patties only ever got partially consumed and the rest tossed.


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## BernhardHeuvel

JSL said:


> Again, you are correct that lemon juice does contain vitamin C, but honey bees do not appear to require an external source of vitamin C. The majority of organisms can synthesize vitamin C.


Maybe, but they profit from external vitamin C for sure! 

*Supplementing with vitamin C the diet of honeybees (Apis mellifera carnica) parasitized with Varroa destructor: effects on antioxidative status*
http://journals.cambridge.org/downl...26a.pdf&code=862ab5df1af903fb91f4e05f6aebbcf2

I feed Vitamin C for healing pesticide damage with good results.

As for the brewer's yeast, you will be surprised how much vitamins and minerals it has:

- per 100 gram -

Minerals: potassium 1,41 mg, phosphorus 1,9 mg, iron 17,6 mg, manganese 0,53 mg
Vitamins: Niacin (B3) 44,8 mg, Pantothenic acid (B5) 7,21 mg, Thiamin (B1) 12 mg, Pyridoxin (B6) 4,41 mg, Riboflavin (B2) 3,17 mg, folic acid (B9) 3,17 mg


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## JSL

Ian,

No worries at all! I asked about the canola because it came into vogue years ago in human nutrition as a "healthy" oil. It has since carried over into beekeeping somewhat... I am not aware of great use in animal programs, my assumption is because they feed for nutritional reasons, not marketing. Corn and soy give your more essential fatty acids for the volume of oil. Your patty formulation comes in at roughly 3.5% oil not counting anything from the soy and yeast. Your half cup is fine, you could even add more if you like. 

BernhardHeuvel,

I am aware of the nutrient levels found in yeast. They key is how they fit into the overall picture of the complete diet. It is not simply a matter of of being present of absent, but rather how they compliment the other ingredients. For example, yeast is overly rich in some nutrients that just cannot be balanced out by other bulk ingredients therefore a vitamin and mineral supplement is required to ensure the correct nutrient ratios.


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## Ian

would I be better with a vegetable oil?

I use canola oil because canola is what we do here


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## JSL

Yes, corn or soy. There is nothing wrong with canola, just more "bang for you buck" in corn or soy... Believe it or not there is an entire nutritional break down for all of the the oils that could potentially used in animal feeds. 

How about putting in a good word for me at Bee Maid?


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## Ian

I have , they mentioned boarder import label issues?? 
I'll push on Mike again  He loved when I pester him to get stuff in


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## davidsbees

The reason I put canola oil in my patties is for the 24 methylene cholesterol a sterol in pollen and commonly found in honey bees. If memory serves.


----------



## high rate of speed

OK.sorry 'ob'. The members are answering there own questions.


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## JSL

davidsbees said:


> The reason I put canola oil in my patties is for the 24 methylene cholesterol a sterol in pollen and commonly found in honey bees. If memory serves.


David,

Plant oils do supply 24 methylene cholesterol, which is a plant based sterol, but what I cannot find clarity for is is the bees are able to convert the 24 methylene cholesterol to a zoological/animal based cholesterol. Some animals can others cannot. The literature for honey bees is a little unclear on the subject. Ian has this covered either way in that he is using eggs, which also supplies a animal based cholesterol.

If you have a good source on this topic it would be appreciated.


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## davidsbees

Joe,
A few years back Dr Eric Mussen gave a power point on bee nutrition based partly on Dr Zachary Huang work. 24-methylene cholesterol is a precursor to important bee functions. Canola was highest in that sterol.


----------



## Ian

Joe, David or Company; looking at my recipe, not adding or taking any ingredients away, how would you tweak the recipe? 
The soy is to help slash the cost down, Brewers yeast and Whole dried egg give a nice balanced AA ratio with available fats and Vitamins, the pollen is to help increase palatablity lemon juice is supposed to bring the acidity down (if that little bit makes a difference??) canola oil is to bump the fats and help make a less sticky patty, the melter honey is salvage and I use the liquids in the HFCS and the honey to mix up the batch.


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## davidsbees

Bees get "all"of their nutrition from plants. I'm thinking there might some enzyme action that break down the sterol to a more usable form.


----------



## JSL

David,

Thanks, that is my understanding too. 24 methylene cholesterol is a precursor used in molting and cell wall formation. The part I am uncertain of is how well honey bees can convert the plant based sterol to an animal based form. The literature I can find suggests they are perhaps somewhat capable, but perhaps the fermentation process of natural pollen also facilitates the conversion into a more utilizable form. This is above my pay grade... However, using egg products makes this mute point as they contain utilizable cholesterol. There was someone on here years ago that joked about using bacon drippings. He was on to something!


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## davidsbees

I have not seen any scrambled eggs in any flowers lately &#55357;&#56835; . I also use egg in my mix plus vitamins, minerals ( off the shelf mix have to much salt) biotin, bioflavonoids.... I also like coconut oil.


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## JSL

True, but when we circumvent the natural process of foraging and fermenting, we find alternatives to deliver nutrients. Eggs just happen to be an easy source. Could be any animal source.


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## grozzie2

Ian said:


> I use canola oil because canola is what we do here


This is just another example of the 'local food' mantra that sells very well these days


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## JSL

Ian,

Your formulation looks pretty good to me. It has a nice compliment of protein sources, the honey and HFCS should give it a great consistency and make it attractive to the bees. The eggs provide, protein, fat, and cholesterol (whether they need it or not). The pollen should draw them in too!

The only thing missing is a vitamin and mineral supplement. The reason I say that is because we will assume the pollen is pretty well balanced, although I would guess there is some nutrient degradation. The supplement would help balance out the soy, yeast and eggs although eggs are a pretty good protein source overall. 

A "supplement" will help round out around the edges. When mixing complete diets in house, we use a "premix". This is even more specific and calculated than a supplement and is tailored to each ingredient. A supplement may run 5-10 pounds per ton, whereas a premix may run upwards of 40-100 pounds per ton, depending on the materials used.


----------



## Ian

Thanks for the feedback Joe, much appreciated. We started into our second round this afternoon. We dropped in 2lbs patties in 6 days ago and the bees are feeding on them extremely well. Id would say the majority of the hives have consumed 1 lbs which is perfect and what I 'had planned' LOL. It is encouraging to see them eating the patty even with the onset of our strong spring pollen flow.


----------



## JSL

You are welcome. In my experience, bees will consume patties even on a good pollen flow. I will sometimes feed cell builders right up until I shut them down in July. I view it as insurance. Consumption is highest with a stretch of wet cold days here and there.


----------



## Allen Martens

Joe,

Does your "premix" come close to being a pollen replacement? Do you find the bees take it readily in dry form with good results?


----------



## JSL

Allen,

Yes, the goal is to formulate a pollen replacement. I still think the limitation in this is the overall attractiveness of of the pollen sub based on the bulk ingredients. A premix is incorporated into whatever sub is desired. So 40-100 pounds of premix would be incorporated into say Ian's patty formulation. If he was to feed it dry, then the premix would not change the taste, smell or attractiveness all that much. We typically see an increase in consumption when using a premix of about 5-7%, for patties.

However, I do not like feeding dry supplement. Not all particles are the same size and not all particles have the same charge, so my assumption is that bees may collect unequal parts of a dry sub in a barrel. When looking at large animal feeds and comparing the effectiveness of feeding mash, crumbles or pellets, the larger the delivery size (ie pellets), the more complete the nutritional intake is for the animal. It can be the same feed, but if it is packed into a pellet the animal HAS to eat more balanced nutrition with each mouth full and not sort through it or have the smaller particles fall out of the mix. To me, this is like feeding dry sub vs. patties. If I put patties in the hive, then I "know" all of the nutrition is in there, but in a barrel, I am not sure it all makes it to the hive. Is something better than nothing, perhaps...


----------



## Ian

I see that open feeding ultra bee. Not sure what they can't pick up but there is something left behind


----------



## Allen Martens

I see some larger particles left behind for both beepro and ultrabee. Always have wondered what it was. Now Joe has me thinking it is all of one essential parts. 

I really like dry feeding in spring before the tree pollen. Very efficient method. With the good weather on Saturday the hives took in a average of 1/2 pound of dry ultrabee in one day.


----------



## camero7

> I see some larger particles left behind for both beepro and ultrabee. Always have wondered what it was.


I see that here with BeePro. But bees are really taking it the last 2 weeks. I also have patties on the hives.


----------



## JSL

Keep in mind that when bees "forage" on dry sub, they are regurgitating small amounts of "nectar" to help stick it together and pack it in their pollen baskets. This may be what you are seeing with larger particles left behind as they waste a little spit. Little clumps of dough balls.


----------



## grozzie2

Another follow up for those interested. It's April 30, so the hive has been on the scale now for a year, our first data came on April 30 of last year. I've started another graph which is a year over year comparison. Last year, we basically left the colony to it's own devices, after a long cool spring, the only management was to add supers as required to give them space, then take supers off when they were full and capped, replace with empty. All supers on this colony went on with drawn comb, and I never gave them any appreciable amount of feed, and what little they did get, was not specifically targetted at anything.

This year, after reading all winter here on beesource, the strategies are much different. We fed early, fed lots. As the colony was growing, I added another strategy into the mix, and once a week we inserted an empty drawn brood comb into the center of the nest in the top box by removing an edge frame that was hardly used, sliding them over, then put the empty drawn brood frame between two frames of capped brood. After 3 weeks I had to start moving things between boxes to keep it up. We've reached the point now, there is no room to remove frames without taking a frame of brood. Essentially, cannot fit more brood into a 2 high stack of deeps.

So the year over year comparison numbers. Last year, on April 30, this colony fielded 1/2 pound of foragers. This year, on April 28, the morning foragers departure along with a rather large orientation happening tallied up to 3lb of bees leaving just before noon. Last year, April 30 notes say there was 4 frames of capped and one frame of open brood in the colony. This year, April 28 notes show 8 frames of brood in the top box, and the equivalent of 4 more on the bottom. They have neatly organized frames in the bottom deep to have pollen on the bottom half, brood on the top half of the frame, and done this over 8 of the frames. The edge frames in both boxes are a mix of pollen and nectar. Last year, first honey super went on May 15, and it was half full by May 31. This year the first super went on April 6, and the maple flow kicked into high gear on the 16, second super went on April 21 because that first one was full of nectar, nothing capped yet.

I've started a new plot, a year over year comparison. It's the same hive, in the same location, but managed very differently. Data is normalized to show them both starting from the same spot roughly. We had a small gain last year starting on May 15, and things are running a couple weeks earlier this year, raspberries look ready to start opening any time now, and we have a weather forecast showing a lot of sunny days over the next two weeks. There is one super mostly full of nectar, and another they have just started to put a bit in. As soon as the scale shows we are getting decent increase again, I'll drop on another box, it's ready and waiting.

I mentioned much earlier in this thread, the goal was, feed this hive to try get it prepped for the expected flow in early May, and manipulate things to keep them in these boxes, out of the trees. I've done that part, populations are triple or more what they were last year. On the last look, no cells and no backfilling happening, so I think they are ready. As this chart grows over the next two weeks, we get to see graphically the results, and just what kind of difference it makes. Red line is essentially unmanaged, and the blue line, same colony in the same spot, managed intensively.










It's been 7 months of talking here, learning, and planning. The proof of the pudding comes now over the next 2 or 3 weeks as we watch where that blue line goes. The bees are ready, the sun is out, forecast to stay out for most of the next 2 weeks, and the raspberries are on the verge of opening up. It's show time, and now we see if the talk, planning and effort translates into $$$.

As always, the graphs are live online, you can see them here:- http://www.rozeware.com/hives


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## JSL

A picture/graph is worth a thousand words... That seems fitting. When beekeepers alleviate some of the limiting factors such as temperature, disease, food availability, bees can do some pretty amazing things!


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## Ian

Cheers to all your work and input here G !


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## Ian

What kind of preparation are you doing to control swarming? Looking at your graph, that thought of exponential growth and production leads to one very familiar outcome...


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## grozzie2

Ian said:


> What kind of preparation are you doing to control swarming? Looking at your graph, that thought of exponential growth and production leads to one very familiar outcome...


I am in each of them at least once a week, and checking for cells and/or backfill each time we go in. If we find cells, or significant backfilling in any of them, split schedule will be advanced on that one to 'right now'. Current plans are to start carving out splits when I have cells ready for them, first grafts will be tomorrow, May 2.

Up to now, I've been running 2 experiments on these colonies with respect to swarm prevention, trying to get a handle on effectiveness vs amount of effort required. The majority of them are getting the same treatment, once a week an empty drawn brood comb placed into the center of the nest, removing an edge comb which is either unused or some stores in the process. A side effect of this, I've now got a supply of combs with pollen in them to use when making up nucs. Concept is, keep empty comb in front of the queen so there is a place to lay, they wont be so inclined to swarm. I've got one of equal size that's been given a totally different treatment, taking a page from Roland's book. Queen isolated to one box, and once a week moving open brood above excluder, and ready to emerge combs back down, along with a fresh empty comb if it's needed. This last round, that one got slightly different preps, as well as moving brood, the excluder was swapped for a cloak board, bottom box turned and the entrance blocked. The slide goes into the cloak board tonite and the back entrance gets opened up. Tomorrow morning the open brood comes out of the top box, and in the afternoon grafts go in. It's got more than ample population to cook up a few queen cells, and if the nurse bees have been without brood for a few hours, they should be all set to go at the grafts.

When the cells are ready, plan is, each of the big ones gives me a 3 frame split with the queen, and a 4 frame with a cell, then leave a cell in the parent with a dozen frames of brood and stores. Want them to re-build over the blackberries after filling some supers on the raspberries, then have some strong ones ready again when it's time to take them up to fireweed patch. It's an ambitious goal that's asking a lot of the bees, which is why I'm not adverse to a little extra work at this time.

All of this is simply a case of listening to everything you folks here talk about over the last year, then connecting the dots and putting it all into practice. I have one big advantage over somebody like Ben, I can afford to do experiments, bees are not the front line income, so I'm pushing the edge pretty hard this year, and documenting it along the way, hopefully other folks can pick up useful information from it. One of the questions I'm trying to answer, how big can we make them, but still keep them in our boxes ? Then the whole point of the year over year plot is to get a graphic show of the difference between a hive left to it's own devices, vs one that's intensively micro-managed thru the buildup. If we can stay on the plan, and reach the first goal of 2 splits plus a super of honey before the blackberries, then I've answered most of my questions as we refine our methods and build longer term revenue plans for the bees. In the short term, those splits are being used for increase, but after we reach our stable colony count, the spring splits will become part of the revenue stream.

Guess I'm just doing things differently than a lot of the threads that pop up here about 'running a bee business'. I'm not asking for input on the business side from anybody. I'm asking questions, and reading about how to run bees, then taking the ideas and melding them into a plan that'll work for us, here on our little plot. The progress you see on that graph has input from Ian, Allen, JSL, Roland, Jean-Marc, Chillardbee and a bunch of other names that dont come to mind right off the top of my head. I throw all that information into a melting pot, and filter it out into what is realistic to try, then go out and try it. The big thing I've focussed on, when I add something into the plan, not only understand the 'what to do', understand the 'why we are doing it'. We started into the winter with a dozen colonies out back, had 9 useable this spring. I've bought a few packages, and a few nucs, next step is to carve out some splits. My goal for this season is to harvest 700+ pounds of honey, and go into the winter with a couple dozen or more strong colonies in double deeps plus a few nucs in 5 frame boxes. I think it's a realistic goal, 80lb of honey from the good ones, and a double deep full of comb and stores from the starts. Another goal, this is the last time we buy bees. Starting next year, in the spring we want to be a seller of bees, not a buyer.

In the year over year part of our longer term plan, there is another big component in the bee part of things. We will continue to expand the colony count until one year my wife and I will be sitting down in the bee yard, probably in May or June, and the comment will be 'this is getting to be to much work'. At that point, we'll put a for sale sign onto 1/3 of the colonies, and call it good. I dont really have a feeling yet for how big that will be. I'm building more stands between the row of apple trees we planted this January, so will have stands for 30 more colonies in a couple weeks.

But it's fun, I'm learning lots, and I'm putting it all out for everybody to see as we make progress. I think that's part of what makes this an interesting challenge, at least with the one hive, the graphs are out there, online live, which makes it pretty difficult to hide any mistakes along the way. I'm treading on the edge here with colony size, and if they swarm ahead of my split schedule, it's out there, everybody will be able to see it. A 5 or 6 pound drop in the afternoon that doesn't recover by evening will be pretty obvious.

Last year I posted some photos of the back lot as we prepared it. There is more than bees going on in that project, and if anybody is interested, we've made up a slideshow that shows the first year progress. Slides run from Feb 2014 till Feb 2015, and we have started another set to document the second year.

http://www.rozeware.com/hives/farm.html


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## JSL

I have seen temperature data on hives and how an inspection disturbs the colony for quite some time, but do you have a segment of weight data that might show how your inspection might impact the hive? I am thinking it would be interesting to see how foraging and colony gain would be impacted...

Thanks!


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## Ian

That's a good point Joe. Gary, that would be a fascinating project. I can tell hive disturbance stops hive activity for a couple hours as I can see that. What would longer term effects be? I don't want to push a project onto you, but your set up and mind set is already geared in a way you might be able to decipher the data.


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## Ian

>>Current plans are to start carving out splits when I have cells ready for them, first grafts will be tomorrow, May 2.<<

Carving out splits, I like that. 
From what I'm reading and from the conversations we have had, to me it appears that your added attention towards your hives has set up the hives to take advantage of production opportunities. And when we manage our hives like that we are able to siphon revenue off them. That is the secret to this business. Many get things backwards... Focusing on the revenue stream first. 
The stage must be set before the play can go on!


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## jean-marc

Good point Ian. Many also focus on costs. They only see money out. In most farming those that spend money on the inputs get the crops later and have revenue to pay for those inputs, the banker for the long term loan and perhaps even a few dollars in their jeans.

Does it cost or does it pay to put a $35 Cdn queen in the hive? Assuming it is good, it will most obviously pay to replace an older queen.

Jean-Marc


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## grozzie2

JSL said:


> I have seen temperature data on hives and how an inspection disturbs the colony for quite some time, but do you have a segment of weight data that might show how your inspection might impact the hive?


Not really, and there is a good reason for it. Photo below is the hive on the scale, right after an inspection . If you see how the scale sits under the stand (4 plastic stepstools) and how many bees are in there, it's absolutely NOT realistic to inspect everything while it's sitting on the scale, so I take boxes off and set them aside. During inspection weight will drop by 75lb because the boxes aren't on the scale anymore. I turn off the weight logging while inspecting, then turn it back on about 10 minutes after things are re-assembled and the bees flying all around finally start making their way back inside. Only the bottom deep stays on the scale thru the whole exercise.

Anectdotally I can say this, hive is usually a bit lighter after inspection, and takes 10 to 15 minutes to recover that weight. But, there are many other factors in play at the same time. On the day a day when the foragers are busy and bringing lots of nectar home, I've seen it turn out to be slightly heavier right after I turn the logging back on. To get the kind of data you are looking for, hive would have to be on a platform scale large enough we can keep the separated boxes on the scale thru the exercise.


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## grozzie2

Ian said:


> From what I'm reading and from the conversations we have had, to me it appears that your added attention towards your hives has set up the hives to take advantage of production opportunities. And when we manage our hives like that we are able to siphon revenue off them


Thats exactly what this season is all about here, micro managing toward specific production goals. Last year we tracked bloom dates on all the flowering things around here, just a simple setup where we have a shared document on a computer, and both my wife and I mark in the date for each type of flower when we see it first bloom, and this year we started adding the date they are done. We can correlate that data with how the hive did last year during each period. This year, we are tracking the same blooms, and the 14 day weather forecast. By lining up the hive scale data based on bloom dates, we can make an educated guess as to what the forage opportunities will be over the next two weeks looking at blooms and weather forecast. That drives our short term management decisions. So looking at where we are right now, first thimbleberry flower was seen yesterday, and last year the first thimbleberry flower led us into a big runup, the heart of which was raspberries. Our short term goal then, keep the bees in these boxes with large populations and lots of empty space in the supers, because we expect a good flow, it's the right point in the bloom cycle and weather forecast has lots of warm and sunny over the next two weeks.



jean-marc said:


> Good point Ian. Many also focus on costs. They only see money out.
> ...
> Does it cost or does it pay to put a $35 Cdn queen in the hive?


Your question is exactly the one we pondered mid April. Hives were strong, and a few queens would allow us to follow your model of splitting 4 ways. 3 queens for a hundred bucks, easily turned into 500 revenue 3 weeks later by selling 3 nucs, then still have a marginal colony left to re-build. Overall, the goals are $500 gross, $400 net per colony in the longer term, so this would have been a quick route to 'job done'. If we were working on a short sighted 'profits next quarter' type of plan, that's exactly what we would have done. But we are working on a longer term plan, and one of the problems that needs to be dealt with, we are out of honey. My wife has built up a set of regular clients that buy honey at the gate, but she has only 3 bottles and one bucket left as of today. If she is going to keep a happy customer list, we need to extract some honey from the early bloom. We kept them as big as we can this year, to try target that early honey. 

So the plan this year is, work some big colonies now, try keep them big for two more weeks and get honey in supers while we have some queens cooking in the cell builder. The stage is properly set for that to happen now. In two more weeks, we'll have a bunch of queens ready to mate in nucs, and all of the big colonies will have donated brood frames to mating nucs. We get the honey, and the increase, which is what we want this year. Wont likely have any bees to sell.

But, things dont always go completely according to plan. Going thru all the big hives checking for cells yesterday, one of them has cups with jelly and larvae in the cups. Ofc, that's the one on the scale, so, we resorted to Plan B on that one this morning. Queen and 4 frames went into a nuc box, left the mother colony to finish cooking up the cells they have started. I didn't want to do a cut down on the scale hive, but at this point it was either that, or let them swarm, so it's done. I probably messed up scale data continuity a bit while doing this, I dont think I accurately accounted for the stuff that came off and on. One day blip, insignificant in the big picture.


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## Keith Jarrett

jean-marc said:


> the banker .
> Does it cost or does it pay
> Jean-Marc


The one's that don't need a banker are the ones that know what pays.


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## Ian

jean-marc said:


> Good point Ian. Many also focus on costs.
> 
> Does it cost or does it pay to put a $35 Cdn queen in the hive? Assuming it is good, it will most obviously pay to replace an older queen.
> 
> Jean-Marc


It will pay every time


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## JSL

Okay, understood, how about one of those electronic bee counters then?  As Ian wrote, not trying to make more work for you, just intrigued by the possibilities of your setup.

I think you have a great approach to learning how to make effective decisions. Some beekeepers grow up in the business an accumulate the intuition passed down through generations, while others find other means to make informed decisions.


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## Ian

Well... Anyone can buy a bee counter. I agree, and What I'm interested in is Gary's approach and how he interprets the data


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## Ian

>>probably messed up scale data continuity a bit while doing this, I dont think I accurate<<

G, That's exactly what I had seen from this side of the computer looking at your graph. 
BUT point is, glean that Nuc or two off, continue your measurements times 2 or 3, right? 
That's what it's about, manipulate, split, produce. Keep them all home and fill those boxes!


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## Roland

Hey Grozzie - I have a crazy plan "B". Find the queen in the brood chamber. Leave her "downstairs" on a frame of eggs, and remove all the other frames( with cells and bees) from the brood chamber, placing them in another box above a second excluder, above the honey supers. The downstairs queen thinks she has swarmed, and the upstairs cells will make a second queen. Let her get going, then remove her for a split and move the top brood chamber down below the supers. 

It will be a pain to work for a while, but you will get around the swarm impulse, maintain your honey production, and keep your data collection intact. 

Crazy Roland


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## grozzie2

Roland said:


> Hey Grozzie - I have a crazy plan "B".


I like trying 'crazy' things, the more things we try, the more notes I'll have on 'what did, and did not work'. But this colony presents a unique problem. If you look at the photo I posted above, the configuration isn't the most stable. The scale is a 12 inch platform scale sitting on the base of stepstools. A solid bottom board rests on the scale so it overhangs in all directions. As this one grows in hight, it tends to be less stable, so I'm rather limited in options going up. Had no choice but to remove things, adding another deep chamber to this stack just wont work, it starts to sway to much.

But looking back at the photo, I've realized something else. I've stumbled on another one of those 'tricks of the trade'. It's kind of traditional here to see photos of blue boxes with tremendous beards just before the almond circus starts. I know how to get that picture now.


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## Roland

Not a problem for the insane:

If I may be so bold...... Find a sheet of 3/4" or so plywood to put under your 4 scales. Level it. That should improve stability.

Next, a single deep , with 14 day inspections, is plenty for a brood chamber. With plan "B", you will not need to move frames for a while after the initial implementation.

From the bottom, you will have a bottom board, a deep with the queen and one frame of eggs, an excluder, one of your medium(?) supers, an innercover with the hole capped(by a piece of 3/8" wood, one of your mediums, and excluder, and a deep with most of the brood and attached bees. 

The bottom queen that wanted to swarm, has 9 empty frames of space, and should be good for 21 days. The top deep has hatching bees, which will open up space untill the queen they make begins to lay, about 21 days. You will then be in trouble top and bottom shorty, but with luck, you will be into your main flow about then(my guess), and you can remove the top queen and smell block in the middle so they do not raise another. The scale will tell you when your supers are full. 

I know it is crazy, and not economical in numbers, but it might just get you past swarm season, and with more bees than normal.

Crazy Roland


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Post #124 reminded me of a point that Mike Palmer makes in one of his videos about using brood builder colonies in a sustainable apiary. He says something to the effect of we never really tap the full potential of our queens in the spring. Whilst the method Grozzie used may be too labor intensive for the big boys in the bee business it has great potential for those of us happy enough to expand to 50-60 colonies over the summer and then sell back to 20 in the spring. Thanks for posting this.


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## grozzie2

Roland said:


> If I may be so bold...... Find a sheet of 3/4" or so plywood to put under your 4 scales. Level it. That should improve stability.


The stability problem doesn't come from an unlevel base, it's from the scale itself. It's a small platform scale, center point load cell mounted on cross bars. There is a small amount of play in the platform due to the way it's mounted on the load cell. I can go 3 deeps, or 2 deeps + 2 mediums on that setup, but if I go any higher, then it sways to much if any wind comes along. During a wind, there are two problems:-

a) Scale readings become unuseable if the stack is swaying.
b) There is a real danger of the whole stack blowing over once it starts to sway. The more windage we have higher up, the more likely it is to blow over.

I've been pondering over the last two weeks various options for changing the scale to get rid of this limitation, then over my morning wake-up coffee this morning, I realized the stack hight limitation of the scale doesn't matter, and may be a good thing. Stack hight limits forced us to take a nuc out of the colony. We are in growth mode, so, that nuc today will be another full size colony for next year. If we were not expanding, it would have been sold. What exactly is wrong with a setup that forces one to take advantage of a revenue opportunity right at a time when nucs are in high demand ?


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## Roland

Or hang your hive from a "swing set" apparatus that applies the force , via a ball, at a single point in the middle of the scale that is mounted above. I know it is complicated, but meets your criteria for not splitting and yet adding supers.


crazy Roland


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## grozzie2

grozzie2 said:


> It's been 7 months of talking here, learning, and planning. The proof of the pudding comes now over the next 2 or 3 weeks as we watch where that blue line goes. The bees are ready, the sun is out, forecast to stay out for most of the next 2 weeks, and the raspberries are on the verge of opening up. It's show time, and now we see if the talk, planning and effort translates into $$$.
> 
> As always, the graphs are live online, you can see them here:- http://www.rozeware.com/hives


So, the numbers are in, did the first honey pull this last weekend. We extracted 70lb average from the hives that wintered and got the early spring feeding regime. That's actually better than last year full season harvest. Not only did we get the honey, all of the hives gave us a nuc, some of them gave us 2. The exception to all of this, the one I used to raise queens, it gave no honey, but we did get a couple dozen nice cells and a nuc from that one. I used most of the cells in nucs, a few went into friends nucs as I had more cells than I could use.

I said at the beginning of this exercise, the goal was to take all the info folks here provided, and build populations targetting the expected flow around May 1. I've also said here in the past, my overall goal is to achieve $500 gross with $400 net per colony. We are selling the honey at the gate stand for 8 bucks a bottle this year, so after bottles and labels, net of 7. The 70lb harvest will net north of my $400 target, plus we got a nuc which is now growing out to be part of the show next year. Time will tell how the blackberries and fireweed produce, but I may have to re-think my revenue targets a bit. First world problem, the kind I like.

So the original question in this thread was about feeding sub response. My online graphs now shows a measured result, the 2015 line is the same colony in the same location as the 2014 line, the difference is management. The sub went on in February this year, and the runup over thimble berry, salmon berry and raspberries is roughly double what it was last year. Some of that is likely the weather, but, a big portion of the difference has to be credited to the bigger population. We can measure that part easily on the scale too, last year we saw a lot less foragers leaving during the morning forager departure.

My preliminary conclusion from the exercise, a few bucks spent on early feed will turn into one extra medium super of honey, and 3 to 5 brood frames for nucs by the end of May. I know it's not big numbers for you folks that deal with huge canola type flows, but we dont have that kind of flow here. In the end tho, it doesn't matter, gate sales in the bottle generate substantially better yields than bulk sales in the drum, so the comparison becomes a wash. However you twist the numbers, one thing remains constant. Double the honey = double the money, and this exercise seems to have doubled the honey for us.

Next year will be interesting, see if we can repeat the result with a lot more hives.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

Thanks for posting, good thread.


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## Roland

Atta boy, keep it coming.

Crazy Roland


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## JSL

Thanks for the update!

I think when beekeepers manage their bees like livestock, and manage them effectively, the results are impressive. Give them the resources they need when they need it so they are in prime condition to take advantage of natural resources when they are there.


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