# Sticky  Anatomy of a mite crash.



## dudelt

Thank you for the reminder Grozzie. Your timing is impeccable.


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## Fivej

Excellent well-thought-out and well written thread. This should be required reading for everyone. J


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## BDT123

Thanks Grozzie 2, perfect timing on delivery.
My checks start next week, after this 3 day rain event. 
Brian
53N, 115 W


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## Grins

Well done, Grozzie, I just completed an OAV cycle a week ago, will do another in the fall when the migratories are gone.


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## Bicklebok

Thank you for the wonderful explanation!


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## Yunzow

Thank you for this excellent post.


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## deepster

Do the bees abscond due to heavy mite load!?
This article really got me worried. I still have my honey supers on!! maybe I use a piece of plywood to separate the honey supers and use OAV, The assumption being all the mites are with the brood any way !?


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## Woodstove

Thanks for such an incredibly well written post, grozzie2. It appears you have a pretty thorough understanding of their life cycle.

It's easy to find loads of information on bee biology, but I have not found nearly as much about varroa mites. I don't know enough about them at this point to know if the information being presented is entirely correct. Would you mind posting a link or two, or pointing me (and the rest of us) in the right direction as to where to find accurate information on the subject?


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## Yunzow

Hey Grozzie,

might I query you, how long of a brood break will break the mite cycle? Also, do you happen to know how mites survive in the winter?

-Thomas


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## Oldtimer

Grozzie that's about the best written piece I have ever seen on this. A good analysis including numbers and maths, but without being overly long and boring. 

With your permission, I would like to quote your post on our local New Zealand bee forum, would that be OK with you? I will also give you a link to the discussion.


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## grozzie2

deepster said:


> Do the bees abscond due to heavy mite load!?


Bees dont abscond due to a mite load, they die. The thing is, invariably as we move into fall, there are folks that start a thread along the lines of 'why did my bees abscond so late in the year', firmly believing they did not die so fast because only 2 or 3 weeks earlier it looked like a strong colony with boxes full of bees. The problem was in fact, an out of control mite load that hit's the perfect storm timing, one generation of foragers dieing off naturally due to age, and a generation of house bees dieing off prematurely due to mite vectored virus loads. This happens at the time of year when overnight temperatures are dropping significantly, so the remaining tiny cluster cannot incubate the brood properly, and you get a generation dieing off in the cells due to chilling. All of these things are happening at the same time, and it can take a hive population from 30,000 to zero in just a couple of weeks.


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## grozzie2

Oldtimer said:


> I would like to quote your post on our local New Zealand bee forum, would that be OK with you?


Go ahead, but, you probably need to caveat, my mentions of timing are for northern hemisphere folks. Substitute January for July then April for October in the case of you folks that cluster upside down.


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## grozzie2

Yunzow said:


> might I query you, how long of a brood break will break the mite cycle? Also, do you happen to know how mites survive in the winter?


The original post specifically asks that we do NOT get into a discussion of treatment regimes in this thread, because they always break down into an 'us vs them' type of argument. This is NOT about how to deal with the problem, it's about how to identify the problem, and understand why early detection is critical.


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## Oldtimer

Thanks Grozzie, I have posted this on our NZ forum and sent you a link so you can follow the discussion.

Over here the typical pattern with new beekeepers is that at seasons end they take the honey and in the process observe what seems to them a very well populated hive. No need to treat for mites, they think, the bees are looking great!


A month or two later they are wondering where the bees went. Hoping this post will help at least some.


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## Yunzow

Hey, Grozzie,

I understand your reluctance to have this regress into a debate about this and that.

I wasn't meaning to ask about brood break as a treatment, especially because I don't have the know how or motivation to do it artificially. More I was curious since my hives had swarmed how that natural brood break was going to affect the mite cycle you described.

-Thomas



grozzie2 said:


> The original post specifically asks that we do NOT get into a discussion of treatment regimes in this thread, because they always break down into an 'us vs them' type of argument. This is NOT about how to deal with the problem, it's about how to identify the problem, and understand why early detection is critical.


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## Amibusiness

The math looks good, though conservative. I am wondering what effect other parts of the biological process has on those numbers: for example, I know some folks are working with hygenic bees. Does anyone know if all bees have a certain amount of hygenic traits and is this reflected in the averages you were quoting? Are there some bees with no hygenic capacities? I guess the main question comes to: under what circumstances are those averages accurate? There are so many varied experiences regarding mite crash, there must be wide variance with mite loads, etc. There are other factors in bee biology which may already be included in those averages.
Thanks for the post. It is a good reminder to be vigilant, a good help to understand the cosequenses of not understanding(!), and a wakeup call to get a move on.
Every year I am impressed at the potential the early spring bees have. This year some went from 2 frames brood to 7 in 2 weeks. Early spring is the apparent weak time in the apiary, and then, all of a sudden, everything is booming. Conversely, July is the apparent strong time in the apiary. And yet, for many, the colonies have only a slim grasp on continued viability and vitality....


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## Moon

- REMOVED -

After reading the original post I decided to remove this in keeping with the spirit of not discussing/debating treatment(s)


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## Grins

Moon said:


> - REMOVED -
> 
> After reading the original post I decided to remove this in keeping with the spirit of not discussing/debating treatment(s)


Moon, I think yours is a most timely question in view of the research we learned from the Samuel Ramsey video posted in this thread, 
https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?349541-Varroa-Does-Not-Feed-on-Hemolymph-Samuel-Ramsey-shakes-up-current-knowledge

I would ask you either start a new thread or ask your question in the thread I mention above. What we do with this new information is the heart of what I'm working through and there are many bright and experienced beekeepers here that could help us make sense of this. 
Lee


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## Andrew Dewey

Thank you and well done grozzie2! A friend sent me the URL and asked me if I had read it yet. I too have done a bunch of research and thinking about this topic. I am in Northern Maine with Winter bees being born very soon. I think if you are inclined to break the cycle, you need to be done with your actions before the winter bees start their development.

All beekeeping is extremely local in this regard. I, for example, need to be done by mid August while someone in Tennessee may be thinking now is too early. New beekeepers need to sound out successful beekeepers in their area!

In the long run will be the development of a bee that coexists with Varroa - but those are not commercially available to me yet!

But the warning is there - if mite populations get really high, a dead hive results - and it can be confusing especially to those who haven't experienced it before (and seen the math) Thanks again grozzie2!


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## AstroBee

Moderators:

Please make this a sticky thread.

Excellent write-up!


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## zonedar

Good info. I treated my three hives with OAV in August (4 times over 3 weeks). Opened them all up today to put on feeders. One is dead. Pretty sure it was a mites as it matches the description on the initial post. Gonna zap the remaining two again.


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## squarepeg

AstroBee said:


> Please make this a sticky thread. Excellent write-up!


agreed. thread now stickied and moderated to remain on topic.


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## lharder

I have been taking brood samples of pink eyed pupae and pulling them out one by one to get a sense of fall brood infestation levels when things should be at their worst. I am TF. I have some brood infestations of less than 2 percent, have a 0 number, lots in the 8 to 10 percent range with a couple in the 40 percent range (still not in the 100 % range described). This means the bees are altering the excellent description of this mathematical model. I have robbing screens on all my production hives as I harvest them to reduce mite transfer. 

Doing some selection and using resistant bees, even if one treats alters this model greatly, opening up management options.


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## BDT123

iharder, does your sampling tell you you have to treat? I would say yes. Anything over 3% needs treatment, ASAP. Like Stat!

No reason or excuse to wait. Treat.
JMO, Brian


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## lharder

No, anything I have to treat I don't want. Its a propaganda point that a universal threshold exists. Lots of my hives survive with phoretic fall counts in the 10 percent range. The ones that don't have virus issues probably and I don't want those either. But you don't know until you go tf and see how colonies respond. I am not worried so much about the hives with brood counts in this range. I am worried about lots of expression of dwv and the higher counts. So I put on robber screens on all my production hives to protect the better hives. I will make queens from productive hives that have lower mite counts and survive 2 or more winters.


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## 1102009

lharder said:


> No, anything I have to treat I don't want. Its a propaganda point that a universal threshold exists. Lots of my hives survive with phoretic fall counts in the 10 percent range. The ones that don't have virus issues probably and I don't want those either. But you don't know until you go tf and see how colonies respond. I am not worried so much about the hives with brood counts in this range. I am worried about lots of expression of dwv and the higher counts. So I put on robber screens on all my production hives to protect the better hives. I will make queens from productive hives that have lower mite counts and survive 2 or more winters.


I agree. My mite counts tell me my mite threshold is much higher than the local average of treated hives´mite infestation when they should be treated. 

I have only a small enterprise so I will treat those showing the first virus bee ; and mite count over the threshold. After 4 years tf and using resistant bred stock, all others I tested gone, I claim to know the threshold exactly.
I claim to be able to evaluate the colonies by counting dayly for ten days the mite drop and going on after every two days. This I will do twice in future, once in spring before splitting and once in summer and compare this to the developement and broodcomb pattern. This overviewing gives me a much better information than two times alcohol wash and does not disturb the colony.

I use robber screens for 2 seasons now. I claim I have almost no drift and I have had no robbing, not even my queenless small splits were robbed. I place the hives apart some m too. I try not to move combs to other colonies except with splitting. I try not to boost weak hives except by feeding. I don´t want to spread disease ( no brood disease so far) and I want to evaluate the developement of each single colony.

My mite counts range from 1-zero to + - 30 a day in the same beeyard.The one treated had 70 a day and two virus bees. With that colony there was a constant rise of mite numbers for one week as the others have the same numbers or the numbers went down. I started treating when I saw one virus bee. If I see 1 mite a day and some virus bees days apart I will treat.
I have two survivors which had + - 200 mites dropping some weeks long last year. This year the mite numbers of these colonies are lower. Now I´m microscoping the mites dropped to see if there is mite biting.
If I have to treat before winter bees are bred I pln to do it without chemicals, oils or acids, by taking brood comb to freeze.

There are many factors to have colonies survive though. We have only corn pollen now which is sprayed and claimed to be not very good for bees. 
So as always in the last years I have to wait for the overwintering results. 
Still, if I´m as lucky as have the low mite colonies survive I know I will breed from them. They are not of the same generation coming from F0 or F1, one or two are local mutts now and still low mite counts and no virus to be seen.

I´m treating the susceptibles because they will become so weak they are the mite bombs then, being taken by the others when they crash in season. I can´t afford this under my circumstances, having no reserve colonies.
The treated ones will be castrated and shifted to a new queen next season if they survive.

The robber screens will not prevent this crashing mite bombs. The robber screens prevent silent robbing and drifting as long as there is entrance defense, because it hinders the speed of robbers trying to get in and gives the watchers time to defend.


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## Doug B

Grozzie2, I appreciate your taking the time and posting up the information regarding mites and their detrimental effect on the colony. As a beginner beekeeper this explains exactly what happened to my first year hive.


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## PepperBeeMan

Thank you for the post. I was guilty of the "treatment free" mindset when I started. I even posted one of those "Why did they abscond" posts in Nov 2016? or 15? And you all said mites because the crash looked exactly like your scenario here. 

I've seen the graphs but never seen it explained like this in PSA form. 

So I started treating. I've had a lot fewer crashes! Thank you for the post. Well timed


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## hagane

"Anatomy of a Mite Crash"

This is a really interesting topic!

But you know I was looking at this video and I can't tell which ones are the Varroah and which are the foulbrood crashing the hive (see link below)? I'm still new to this and figuring out the different bugs from each other. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ6MrDO0kgY


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## gnor

If you use OAV, you can use newspaper to separate the supers. Just remember, though, that OAV won't kill mites under brood cappings, where at least half the mites are hiding. There are treatments like Formic acid that you can use with supers on that will kill capped mites.


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## Robert Holcombe

I like your "freezing brood frames" approach and agree with watching phoretic mite drop as an indicator. I also do brood removal and varroa -capped cell inspections. I have been thinking of doing this, brood removal, to all hives after supers are removed, induce a brood break, OAV, feed syrup and feed thawed frames to chickens. I tested one large hive in mid-Sept and got a low Varroa dead drop account, 291 Varroa, 5 days after OAV treatment. My winter, brood-less OAV treatments apparently clean up pretty well. I then watched for phoretic mite drop. Unfortunately my strong Fall hives find a lot of weak hives to rob in October. I experience a huge Varroa spike in all foraging / robbing hives due to Varroa migration for 3-4 weeks. Exception - one hive out of nine has consistent low varroa dead drop counts this year. The hive seems to either not rob(??), has very high VSH characteristics ( I do not see larva), prevents "silent" robbing (strong guarding character) or some unknown in-coming grooming (unknown method) or something is removing Varroa (sticky board is enclosed) . This is a strong, productive, New World Carniolan queened hive which is an obvious exception for an unknown or specific reason I can identify. I plan on breeding her in the Spring.


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## crofter

I think the disinclination to rob is quite possibly the reason why that one colony would be such an exception. I have had bees that just did not rob. Definitely Carni type habits. Due to some unusual events the last year and half I had a big change in genetics and saw the start of a bit of robbing. I requeened the worst of the pirates. With my isolation I can control genetics a bit but most people have to put up with robbing.


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## Gino45

grozzie2 said:


> Bees dont abscond due to a mite load, they die.


Very informative write up: however, in my climate the bees will abscond when the problems arise. The difference may be that they are responding to hive beetles taking over and sliming the hive as it weakens due to the failed or failing queen. This occurs primarily in the mid summer to fall time frame, fwiw.

I don't see dead or sick bees before this happens. I will grant that the problems start with the mite build up, but I think the end comes sooner in tropical climates where the SHB thrive year round.


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## Oldtimer

hagane said:


> "Anatomy of a Mite Crash"
> 
> This is a really interesting topic!
> 
> But you know I was looking at this video and I can't tell which ones are the Varroah and which are the foulbrood crashing the hive (see link below)? I'm still new to this and figuring out the different bugs from each other.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ6MrDO0kgY


Wrong link?


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## Amibusiness

Ot, I think he was making a joke


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## jnqpblk

Grozzie,
Fantastically written anatomy!
And fantastic reminder it is "conservative".
May I/do I have your permission to refer other beeks to your article by simply giving out the URL, or google reference finder, or whatever it is called. Will not give any of the article out, only the Beesource tag to find and read it from your own post.
Pretty please.
This is info that every beekeeper needs to be aware of.
Not everyday I read something on beekeeping with as much emphasis, importance, and simple ringing of raw truth throughout, and timing matches the general dates here in SW WA. 
Combined with the fact the startling resulting info is a conservative reporting. Wow!
Whether I can post the URL or not. Thank you for the anatomy lesson.


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## twinoaks

Awesome explanation of a mite crash--not overwhelming with detail, but enough to remind us all of the basic math involved if we hope to pre-empt a hive disaster. Thank you.


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## hofboss

From Europe, Germany.
You have about 4,5 hours of info on varroa an how to keep bees.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwuR3uMkMF0&ab_channel=NationalHoneyShow
It comes from: https://www.honeyshow.co.uk/lecture-videos.php


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## GeorgeManning

dudelt said:


> Thank you for the reminder Grozzie. Your timing is impeccable.





jnqpblk said:


> Grozzie,
> Fantastically written anatomy!
> And fantastic reminder it is "conservative".
> May I/do I have your permission to refer other beeks to your article by simply giving out the URL, or google reference finder, or whatever it is called. Will not give any of the article out, only the Beesource tag to find and read it from your own post.
> Pretty please.
> This is info that every beekeeper needs to be aware of.
> Not everyday I read something on beekeeping with as much emphasis, importance, and simple ringing of raw truth throughout, and timing matches the general dates here in SW WA.
> Combined with the fact the startling resulting info is a conservative reporting. Wow!
> Whether I can post the URL or not. Thank you for the anatomy lesson.


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## GeorgeManning

GeorgeManning 
G
Mite loss, how about absconding from wasps this year? Worst ever. Your preventive techniques?


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## jbell

Much needed information. Thanks for sharing.


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## RobinWhite11

Thank you for sharing this important information with us. Now I have more answers, and it's not as scary as it seemed before. You described everything very well.


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## Litsinger

I thought of this post while listening to Stewart Spink's _'Beekeeping Short and Sweet'._

In Episode 193 he walks through this scenario explaining how that if there is no interruption in mite levels and/or mite reproduction there are a staggering amount of mites in a colony by season's end- as I think most of us are intuitively (and many of us painfully) aware.


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## synoviaus

Thanks to all of you! Great information for newbies like me!


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