# Selling Bees for Sting Therapy



## Mbeck

Here is one example....

http://ferrisapiaries.com/?page_id=73


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## tech.35058

You are asking advice from others who have done this ... that leaves me out. 
But I first got interested in bees under the influence of Dr. Amber Rose' book, "Bee in Balance".
Now, having been diagnosed as "sensitive" to bee stings, I would think twice about the legal liability of selling bees for this purpose, although I would advise any one who asked about how to catch their own bees. or, maybe sell them a nuc & let them become their own bee keeper. ( or maybe not.... ) CE


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## Maddy

When we picked up our first box of bees, a gentleman was explaining to all of us noobs how to sugar the bees before putting them in the hive and he took two of them and had them sting his lower back. He said it was his therapy for back pain. 

Having never been stung by a bee in my life at that point, I was gobsmacked. 
After I got stung a couple times, I was even more amazed that someone would do that deliberately. 

But I still swell and itch horrendously when I get stung. Perhaps it is an acquired tolerance...

Honeybeesuite.com guestimates approximately 10,500 bees in a 3lb box. dividing that by $125 (the cost for a 3# box here in Colorado), that would be about 8.4 cents per bee at current street market value. 50 of them would then be about $4. 
toss in time, energy, and packaging, and $8-10 (or about .20 per bee) would seem a fair asking price.

I would make sure to include a PRINTED disclaimer that the buyer acknowledges and assumes ALL responsibility and liability for any allergic reactions, and that you, the seller assumes NO responsibility, nor makes ANY medical claims regarding the use of bee stings. You just sell 'em. You don't know or want to know what happens to them after the sale.

~M


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## Laredrone

My question here is, even if recent research shows that there is no significant difference of outcome in a regular person with arthritis compared with a person receiving bee therapy. Is it better to inform customers about this findings? Ethical principle i guess.


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## ruthiesbees

I am on some of the BVT groups on FB and have used bee venom before to treat my own conditions. Ferris is in the process of moving their location and isn't taking new orders for a little while so they can get reconfigured in their new space. This has created quite a vacuum of customers who need bees and are looking for sources. Shipping bees in the winter is very problematic, and most of the people in the FB groups are reporting delayed shipments and dead bees on arrival.

Capitalbees, I'd encourage you to look into finding a way to ship the bees. For some places, the prices is calculated at 0.10 per bee plus the cost of shipping. A new company has just gotten into the game and they sell their bees on ebay. they use a clear plastic container, like a pill bottle. That takes the guesswork out of crafting little wooden boxes.

When people sting, they are doing up to 10 stings a day, every other day so a box of 50 bees lasts them less than 2 weeks. All of them know to provide the bees honey when they get them. Whether or not you provide a sugar plug will be up to you.

As for legal issues, most of these people are not doing this under the guidance of a physician. Many follow Amber Rose and there are a couple other names out there. Your price list should not offer any claims of what it may cure or even mention what they should "use" the bees for .


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## Galaxie

Laredrone said:


> My question here is, even if recent research shows that there is no significant difference of outcome in a regular person with arthritis compared with a person receiving bee therapy. Is it better to inform customers about this findings? Ethical principle i guess.


In my opinion, the ethical thing to do is inform them. Unfortunately, doing so will probably cost you some sales.


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## jwcarlson

50c per bee and they ship in 3 hole cages.

http://www.beeweaver.com/buy_beeweaver/mini_bee_pacs


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## Sky

ruthiesbees said:


> .....You price list should not offer any claims of what it may cure or even mention what they should "use" the bees for .


ABSOLUTELY best advice! :thumbsup: Sell the bees and recurring live delivery, not their usage or fitness for any specific purpose. 

Sky


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## Nabber86

Galaxie said:


> In my opinion, the ethical thing to do is inform them. Unfortunately, doing so will probably cost you some sales.


If someone is wants to buy bees for venom "therapy" good luck convincing them otherwise.


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## jwcarlson

Nabber86 said:


> If someone is wants to buy bees for venom "therapy" good luck convincing them otherwise.


Same with local honey for allergies.


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## Riskybizz

"I wonder about is the liability/legal/risk side...to me its one thing if an individual goes to a physician or therapist who is administering the treatment but maybe whole different issue if they go to a person self administering?"...

Capital Bee

I think that its very logical to assume that there "could" definitely be a possible legality issue to knowingly selling bees to individuals who wish to sting themselves for beneficial purposes. There are obvious negative scenarios that one can envision. I have been asked numerous times to administer sting treatments to individuals with Parkinson's, Lyme disease, as well as M.S. I only did it for one woman 20 something years ago. I finally came to the realization that even thought I am very knowledgeable regarding bees and adverse reactions to bee venom, I didn't think it wise get involved with alternative medical treatments. The way I look at it in most areas honeybees are free for the taking for the majority of spring, summer and fall. Why would someone have to send (or sell) bees through the mail when they are free for the taking?


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## lemmje

Riskybizz said:


> they are free for the taking?


Free for the taking?!? Leave my bees alone!! 
Maybe i can come up with a "bee-brander" so i know when they are being rustled....... 


My dad used to have a bee sting his arthritic hands back in the 1980s, when he and i kept bees together. He said he never knew if it helped or not, but since his hands hurt all the time anyway, why not give it a try?

Interesting, to sell bees for this specific purpose.


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## ruthiesbees

lemmje said:


> Free for the taking?!? Leave my bees alone!!
> Maybe i can come up with a "bee-brander" so i know when they are being rustled.......
> 
> 
> My dad used to have a bee sting his arthritic hands back in the 1980s, when he and i kept bees together. He said he never knew if it helped or not, but since his hands hurt all the time anyway, why not give it a try?
> 
> Interesting, to sell bees for this specific purpose.


When you are in constant pain, and the RX just isn't helping anymore, a bee sting or two in the right spot makes it all ok. I could even walk up and down my stairs without pain. 

Just so you all know, most of the people who want to buy live bees for apitherapy are those with Lyme disease. They've lived with the debilitating affects for years with no relief from the prescription meds. Many are finding some measure of relief (or cure) by using Bee Venom. Within the groups that I am a part of, I will encourage them to take up beekeeping so they don't need to buy the bees all the time, but these people are barely able to get out of bed in the morning and fix themselves something to eat, let alone look after a bee hive. 

I'd encourage you all to look up BVT and Lyme on youtube and see what these people are dealing with.


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## Acebird

capitalbeesupply said:


> Had a call tonight from someone asking if we sell bees for sting therapy.
> Rich
> Capital Bee Supply
> Madison, WI


I would not do it. You would be on thin ice for practicing medicine without a license. I don't see why you couldn't sell them the smallest package of bees for like an observation hive and then "they" can do what ever they like with them.


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## Bee Bliss

Couple of things......... 

Ruthie, could you share some links? Very interesting as to the groups regarding lyme, apitherapy, etc.

Also, something I read mentioned the one reason Lyme is difficult to treat is it likes to hide in joints and the brain. Medication needs to be able to cross the blood/brain barrier. Bee venom will cross over. Stings directly to joints will take care of areas without blood flow.


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## Haraga

In the past I just gave the bees away from a strong hive.


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## jwcarlson

If you advertise and sell mini packs of bees and don't suggest anyone sting themselves and don't associate the word apitherapy with the product how would that be an issue? Are all the people selling queen bees with attendants at risk of getting sued? Package them up in a queen cage and sell them as "prepackaged attendant bees".


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## ruthiesbees

In answer to Bee Bliss..

The FB groups on treating lyme with bee venom are closed groups and I'm not allowed to repost anything from them. They will usually allow beeks to join the group if you just want to be a silent observer.

I have an open group on FB for Apitherapy with some documents and some posts about bee venom and lyme https://www.facebook.com/groups/apitherapy/

Here is one on the protocol for treating lyme with canned bee venom. I believe Charles Mraz was the main supplier of medicinal bee venom for quite some time. He's considered the pioneer in pushing bee venom to treat chronic issues. 
http://www.klinghardtacademy.com/Protocols/The-Treatment-of-lyme-Disease-with-Bee-Venom.html

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=119268801487258&story_fbid=872212246192906

http://www.blessedbeetherapy.com/?page_id=15

http://www.honeybeehealers.com/information-to-get-started-with-bee-venom-therapy-for-lyme-disease/


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## Bee Bliss

Thanks Ruthiesbees!


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## tech.35058

ruthiesbees said:


> but these people are barely able to get out of bed in the morning and fix themselves something to eat, let alone look after a bee hive.


Thank you for the information.
I apologize for suggesting "(everyone)" should become their own bee keeper. 
I agree with those suggesting to sell without reference to the intended use, or listing as "educational" materials, with a signed "( I am of age, & accept all responsibility)" document.

legal liabilities .... This is the hard part. After the beloved one is gone, those who remain look around to sue every one in sight. 
just the world we live in today.

Again, thanks for the links CE


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## Terry C

Bee Bliss said:


> Couple of things.........
> 
> Ruthie, could you share some links? Very interesting as to the groups regarding lyme, apitherapy, etc.
> 
> Also, something I read mentioned the one reason Lyme is difficult to treat is it likes to hide in joints and the brain. Medication needs to be able to cross the blood/brain barrier. Bee venom will cross over. Stings directly to joints will take care of areas without blood flow.


 I too would like to see some links . I was diagnosed with Lyme some years ago , it was caught it in an early stage and I got antibiotics . Until recently I thought nothing of it but now I'm seeing evidence that it doesn't always just go away even when caught and treated early ... and I'd like to know more .

Oops , shoulda read ahead . Got any links that aren't FB ?


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## ruthiesbees

Terry C said:


> I too would like to see some links . I was diagnosed with Lyme some years ago , it was caught it in an early stage and I got antibiotics . Until recently I thought nothing of it but now I'm seeing evidence that it doesn't always just go away even when caught and treated early ... and I'd like to know more .
> 
> Oops , shoulda read ahead . Got any links that aren't FB ?


See post #19. The last link honeybeehealers probably is what you are looking for. It has lots of resource info. Or you can just google BVT and lyme to get a whole list of stuff to click on.


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## capitalbeesupply

Thanks everyone for the information. I'll have to do more research on the whole thing. A brief discussion with the attorney this morning raises lots of issues (they of course see it as a liability problem because by providing the bees we would be facilitating the process). Something else that came to mind as I thought about this today is the issue of shipping bees across state lines....I'm not clear on how the few companies that are providing apitherapy bees are in compliance with the regulations regarding import of bees. For example, in Wisconsin our state governing this says "No person may bring or cause to be brought into this state any honeybee, beehive, drawn comb or used beekeeping equipment or appliances without reporting the shipment to the department. Reports shall be made on forms furnished by the department which shall include the name and address of the consignor, name and address of the consignee, date and manner of shipment.....". I know many other states have similar stuff on the books...as always enforcement of this is a whole different issue but if gov't gets you on one thing then they pile on with everything else they can find.


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## capitalbeesupply

Its a funny thing...all the time I've spent browsing on BeeSource and I never noticed there was an Apitherapy forum......


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## Bdfarmer555

With regard to liability, if someone decides a peanut has some medicinal value and later finds themselves extremely allergic, I don't think that the peanut farmer is at much of a risk so long as he hasn't advertised them as "miracle peanuts" or claimed they cure anything. 

If you are not promoting it as healthy or medicinal, you'd have no liability in the case of some injury. No more than Toll House has been for making me fat. Lol


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## RichardsonTX

Everyone in here who is skeptical of bee venom therapy needs to read, _*Health and the Honeybee*_ by Charles Mraz. This is a very inexpensive, well written, and interesting book that can be read in 2-3 hours. 

I'm amazed that someone would try to convince a person that a treatment isn't working when the person they are trying to convince has already been successfully using that treatment method. This book was written by a well respected person of good character and should be taken seriously. He was a person who made his living as a commercial beekeeper and decided to try the treatment one day for his own illness. It worked and he spent the next 70 years unselfishly helping/treating other people with illnesses that benefited from bee venom therapy who couldn't get any successful treatment anywhere else, including from professional doctors. In the book he also describes the science of it. 

As for selling someone bees ................. if they want to buy them, then sell them to them regardless of how they want to use them. Why not?

"The only source of knowledge is experience.".........Albert Einstein


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## Galaxie

RichardsonTX said:


> Everyone in here who is skeptical of bee venom therapy needs to read, _*Health and the Honeybee*_ by Charles Mraz. This is a very inexpensive, well written, and interesting book that can be read in 2-3 hours.
> 
> I'm amazed that someone would try to convince a person that a treatment isn't working when the person they are trying to convince has already been successfully using that treatment method.


In all fairness, you've heard of the placebo effect and confirmation bias, yes? Just because one believes a treatment is working does not mean it really is. Homeopathy is a good example of something that many people believe but does not stand up to scrutiny.



RichardsonTX said:


> This book was written by a well respected person of good character and should be taken seriously.


His character has no bearing on the validity of apitherapy, unfortunately.



RichardsonTX said:


> ...In the book he also describes the science of it.


I'm curious; what illnesses does he claim apitherapy works for? How did he test his ideas? Did he do double-blind tests? Have his results been tested and duplicated?


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## RichardsonTX

Galaxie said:


> In all fairness, you've heard of the placebo effect and confirmation bias, yes? Just because one believes a treatment is working does not mean it really is. Homeopathy is a good example of something that many people believe but does not stand up to scrutiny.
> 
> 
> His character has no bearing on the validity of apitherapy, unfortunately.
> 
> 
> I'm curious; what illnesses does he claim apitherapy works for? How did he test his ideas? Did he do double-blind tests? Have his results been tested and duplicated?


Like I said, read the book.


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## Bee Bliss

Galaxie said:


> ..... Just because one believes a treatment is working does not mean it really is.
> 
> ~~
> I think the patient would be a good judge of that! Many have said it works.
> 
> Read up on Pat Wagner, the Bee Lady, with MS.
> 
> http://www.mdbee.com/apitherapy/patwagner.html (one source of many)
> 
> 
> She was confined to a wheelchair with MS until undertaking apitherapy. She eventually started giving apitherapy to others. I have her book. I have the Charles Mraz book also (Health and the Honey Bee).
> Mr. Mraz treated Wagner. She credits him with restoring her life.
> 
> Charles Mraz worked with researchers and a few doctors during his apitherapy years. He was a beekeeper for a European doctor in New York practicing apitherapy. Dr. had an observation hive in his office to supply his bees.
> 
> There are many ailments that apitherapy treats. Bee venom kills cancer cells also.


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## Galaxie

Galaxie said:


> ..... Just because one believes a treatment is working does not mean it really is.





Bee Bliss said:


> I think the patient would be a good judge of that! Many have said it works.


Actually no, if one is trying to determine the efficacy of a new treatment, the patient(s) are _not_ a good judge, precisely because of the placebo effect and confirmation bias. Patients may report beneficial effects, but unless a controlled study is done, we don't know if it was the treatment that was responsible for the beneficial effects or if it was merely a psychological effect (placebo). Additionally, with some illnesses we don't know if the beneficial effects are real or imaginary unless we test the patients afterward.



Bee Bliss said:


> Read up on Pat Wagner, the Bee Lady, with MS.
> http://www.mdbee.com/apitherapy/patwagner.html (one source of many)
> She was confined to a wheelchair with MS until undertaking apitherapy. She eventually started giving apitherapy to others. I have her book. I have the Charles Mraz book also (Health and the Honey Bee).
> Mr. Mraz treated Wagner. She credits him with restoring her life.
> Charles Mraz worked with researchers and a few doctors during his apitherapy years. He was a beekeeper for a European doctor in New York practicing apitherapy. Dr. had an observation hive in his office to supply his bees.
> There are many ailments that apitherapy treats.


I really hope apitherapy turns out to be a viable treatment for MS, but all I can see in that link are anecdotes. As the saying goes: anecdotes are not evidence. When it comes to medical treatments, we need controlled studies and so far the limited studies that have been done regarding MS do not look good for apitherapy.



Bee Bliss said:


> Bee venom kills cancer cells also.


Sorry, but the American Cancer Society says there are, "no clinical studies in humans showing that bee venom or other honeybee products are effective in preventing or treating cancer." Maybe there will be studies in the future, but until then we can't honestly say venom kills cancer. Please note that I am not trying to attack apitherapy or its proponents, I'm simply interested in the truth behind the claims.


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## Bee Bliss

In the book and in videos, etc. Charles Mraz states that there is no money in apitherapy for big drug companies and, therefore, very little interest by their researchers. He tried repeatedly to get research done due to his interest in bee venom and because he saw results that supported the use of bee venom. Mraz indicated in his book that apitherapy is widely used in Europe. 

It appears big drug companies and their researchers are not interested in the truth unless it is profitable for them.


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## ruthiesbees

Bee Bliss said:


> In the book and in videos, etc. Charles Mraz states that there is no money in apitherapy for big drug companies and, therefore, very little interest by their researchers. He tried repeatedly to get research done due to his interest in bee venom and because he saw results that supported the use of bee venom. Mraz indicated in his book that apitherapy is widely used in Europe.
> 
> It appears big drug companies and their researchers are not interested in the truth unless it is profitable for them.


Exactly! They can't patent free roaming bees and bee venom, so they have no interest in proving whether it works or not.


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## Galaxie

Bee Bliss said:


> In the book and in videos, etc. Charles Mraz states that there is no money in apitherapy for big drug companies and, therefore, very little interest by their researchers. He tried repeatedly to get research done due to his interest in bee venom and because he saw results that supported the use of bee venom. Mraz indicated in his book that apitherapy is widely used in Europe.
> 
> It appears big drug companies and their researchers are not interested in the truth unless it is profitable for them.


If he said that, it's a red flag because that is the same tired excuse that gets trotted out whenever a treatment's claims can't be proven. Do you really think doctors and researchers would ignore a potential treatment for something as serious as MS or cancer if there was any inkling it worked? Personally, I think the drug-companies would absolutely love to sell expensive synthetic bee venom.


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## Galaxie

ruthiesbees said:


> Exactly! They can't patent free roaming bees and bee venom, so they have no interest in proving whether it works or not.


But they could patent synthetic bee venom or compounds derived therefrom. If apitherapy works and catches on, they're not going to use real bees if they can get away with it. There's a slight risk of infection plus the risk of allergic reaction with real bees. Also, live bees require care and all that while a vial of venom does not.


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## ruthiesbees

Galaxie said:


> But they could patent synthetic bee venom or compounds derived therefrom. If apitherapy works and catches on, they're not going to use real bees if they can get away with it. There's a slight risk of infection plus the risk of allergic reaction with real bees. Also, live bees require care and all that while a vial of venom does not.


So far, bee venom has not been synthesized in a laboratory. It contains a myriad of components and I wonder if we still haven't figured out what all of them are. The bottled stuff they use is dried real bee venom that has the "itchy" taken out. Some people report that doesn't work as well as the "real deal". _The Bible of Bee Venom Therapy_ is an interesting read. It goes into a lot of the science behind it. http://www.amazon.com/The-Bible-Bee-Venom-Therapy/dp/1890708003


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## RichardsonTX

Bee Bliss said:


> In the book and in videos, etc. Charles Mraz states that there is no money in apitherapy for big drug companies and, therefore, very little interest by their researchers. He tried repeatedly to get research done due to his interest in bee venom and because he saw results that supported the use of bee venom. Mraz indicated in his book that apitherapy is widely used in Europe.
> 
> It appears big drug companies and their researchers are not interested in the truth unless it is profitable for them.


Well said! 

I had wanted to point that out earlier but didn't know how to say it quiet so clearly.


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## RichardsonTX

Galaxie....................I'm not being facetious when i say this but you really should read the book. You will really enjoy the book, its interesting, and it may cause you to want to do more research on the matter to the point that you become another Charles Mraz. At the beginning of the book he tells about how he was just like you but after seeing real benefits from it when he himself got to a desperate point and decided to try it on himself, then he wanted to use it to help other people.

http://www.amazon.com/Health-Honeybee-Charles-Mraz/dp/0964248506


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## Galaxie

*RichardsonTX*,
I have no doubt his book would be an interesting read. I think where we differ is whether his claims actually constitute evidence. I would say they do not. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this topic. 

If anyone is curious, here's a couple studies on apitherapy for pain management: 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20558236
http://www.jpain.org/article/S1526-5900(11)00869-8/abstract

And with regards to MS:
http://www.neurology.org/content/65/11/1764.short
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16541972
Don't read those two unless you want to be disappointed.


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