# Band heater vaporizer.



## johno

To try to reduce heat loss to the device I have insulated the hot area with glass wool covered with woven glass tape and will try this out on a few hives later on this week. The vaporizer gets up to about 470F in 4 minutes when it normally took about 5 minutes, so it appears the insulation has increased the efficiency some.







This high temperature does not seem to break down the OA as the particles can clearly be seen during test vaporizing also the temperature drops rapidly to around the 340F area while sublimation is taking place.


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## texanbelchers

Thanks for the update. I've been working on a similar device, but went with the 35mm size. The local big box stores don't stock 1.25 copper parts, so had to order them. We'll see how it does on temp when I get it together. Did you try heating the actual cap instead of the tube?


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## johno

My starting point was the 25mm band heater so I had to go with 1" copper pipe which is about 1 3/16" or about 30mm which allowed me to open the band heater a little to allow for the 3/8"piece of pipe to protrude from the front. The band heater would probably be better closer to the bottom but then to find the right size band heater would be next. I could use the end cap plus a coupling to make up the chamber and still have the 1"pipe inside holding it all together, as the top caps I made from some 1" OD aluminum tube and they fit neatly into the 1" pipe and this helps seal the top. Also this was large enough to hold 2 to 3 grams of OA and the purpose was to do 1 hive at a time.
Johno


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## dynemd

johno-
I've been following your progress on the forums. I purchased some Tempco band heaters (NHL00158) that are 1-1/4" and 250 watts (120v AC). They fit over the 1" copper pipe caps perfectly although the price is ~$25 each http://www.tempco.com/Catalog/Section 1-pdf/Mica Band.pdf
I'm going to try and use some silicon rubber corks on mine and see if they can withstand the heat. I've got some PID temperature contollers and thermocouples I'm playing around with also. I'm powering mine with a 750 watt inverter and a 22ah battery. I guess we'll see if the temperature contollers are necessary...


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## crofter

Having the heat up the sides a bit may prevent the crusting over and hanging up on the sides on some evaporators. Should help keep some heat on the exit pipe to prevent redepositing there too.

I like it!:thumbsup:


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## johno

Hi Dynemd,
I hope the silicon corks work for you, will you be able to hollow them out so that you may be able to load the OA into them? This I think is the big advantage of the system, loading the OA into the hot container without any vapor escaping. Let us know how you progress.
Johno


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## johno

Hi Crofter,
I would not mind if the heat source was closer to the bottom, as this is where the sublimation takes place and if the outlet pipe is not too high up and not too long the conductivity of the copper should keep it hot enough so as not to allow the OA to crystalize. As I mentioned one has to start somewhere and a cheap band heater is where I started. It has worked out OK as the 1" copper pipe and the 1" OD aluminum tubing made making the caps possible. The formica layer on the ply I used is standing up to the heat pretty well.


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## crofter

It looks like there are several manufacturers or stocking distributors for the band heaters in Que. Canada. I would say it is a much less involved construction than the tray types. Especially so if you can do without readouts or max temperature control.
It is a big plus to be able to vaporize without having to push something into the entrance of a colony and cover and uncover openings. The single tray type I am using is getting a bit of a pain to do a dozen hives a number of times for a series of treatments. It is getting a bit "old"!

I have reduced dwell times by dumping the charge into the tray while it is still hot enough to just start the initial fizzing but not yet much smoke. Do you have any reservations about how much you can push in this direction without compromising the effectiveness of the treatment. It really is hard to qualify the smoke, fog, vapor, or whatever it really is, solely by appearance.

Are you silver soldering or sil phosing the cap to the length of 1" copper?


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## johno

Crofter, I have been using glow plug heated wands on my hives for a couple of years and it does become a pain removing entrance reducers to do the treatment frying a few bees while doing it and worrying if one of those fried might be the queen and then having to replace the entrance reducer when done. The last time I treated some hives I used a paper mask, one of those you get from your local hardware store and exposed myself to some of the vapor to see if it was as I suspected tiny crystals of OA as I observed while doing tests, result of that was not even a whiff of oxalic acid or even formic acid so I do not go along with the theory that high temperature in this type of system breaks down the OA. I think that the boiling and sublimation of the OA absorbs so much latent heat that it drags the temperature down to sublimation temperature. If the OAV was contained and did not escape that might be a different outcome. I used the silver copper alloy that most refrigeration folks use on copper to copper welding no flux is required.
Johno


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## dynemd

johno-
What do you use for a torch to braze(?) the sil-fos? Are you using the 15% silver? I'm going to try brazing with a swirl torch burning MAPP gas and see how it works. This one: https://www.amazon.com/Bernzomatic-...rd_wg=9KMJq&psc=1&refRID=NSAHTPP1V1N5CD9PTRWP


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## johno

Hi Dynemd,
I have oxy/acetylene so I had no problems, I do not know if you can get hot enough with map gas so it would be a pity to spend so much on the torch and find that you still can't do the job. Maybe someone on the forum would know if map gas can do copper to copper welding. I did a final OAV treatment on some of my out hives yesterday, put fondant on them and treated. I let the insulated unit pre heat for 5 minutes and loaded the OA and vaporized in 30 to 35 seconds, I noticed that when the OA hits the bottom of the vaporizer it flashes off and creates pressure in the vaporizer and blows the vapor out into the hive so the cap needs to be a good fit or vapor will leak out at the top. What I need to do in the spring is run a test on my 20 home hives and see if the vaporizer can maintain a high enough temperature over a longer period of vaporization. If it does not I will redo the unit using 2 band heaters.
Johno


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## crofter

I have done many joints with oxy acetylene but I doubt you could do that size with Mapp gas single bottle torch. The flame has to be large and soft not harsh (oxidizing) for either fluxed silver brazing alloy or self fluxing Sil Phos rod. If you spot overheat areas of the assembly, oxidation resulting prevents the alloy flowing into the joint. If you have to take it to a regular shop it will be too expensive. You will have to hook up with someone who has hobby gear set up at home or do it at work as a "government job".


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## Indiankentuck

I have just completed 3 of these band heaters using the 25 mm bands and 3 1/2" deep electrical boxes. The Mypin temperature controller fits the boxes nicely. A piece of conduit for the handle. The copper bowl and heater are mounted on a piece of phenolic. Less then $50 each. 40-370 degrees in 2.5 minutes. 2 grams of OA vaporize completely in 2.5 minutes (the outside temperature was 40 degrees, so this might be quicker if it were warmer}. 2.4 amps. 288 watts. I'll run 2 at a time from an inverter mounted in the truck and a heavy extension cord. I have 75 hives and have been using the wand vaporizers for several years. I'm thinking that the band heaters inserted through a 3/8" hole in the back of the bottom boards will be quicker to use and much more convenient. At least that's what I'm hoping. Thanks to Johno for the idea
.


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## johno

Indiankentuck, those look good. where did you get your band heaters, the ones I got from Amazon only draw about 1 amp. Still they preheat the copper to over 500F in 5 minutes and then will vaporize the 2 grams in 30-35 seconds, the temperature drops dramatically during the vaporization due to the latent heat being absorbed and if you look up into the plume of vapor if it is against the sunlight you can see the OA crystals glittering in the sunlight. So I am sure that the high temp does not break down the OA. I am not sure if the band heaters I have will maintain the 1 minute treatment cycle over a large amount of hives, I will check that out in the spring. The internal resistance of my heaters are about 145 ohms which is far too high for 300 watts at 120 volts.
Johno


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## crofter

I am going to test without thermostatic control or temperature readouts. The heaters I have on the way are nom. 300 watts. I have gone to the 30mm dia. which should be right on to fit on the external of the pipe cap and coupling sleeve. 

If these get the vapor effectively into the hive without having to mess around with disturbing the hive it will make the treatments do able quicker and in almost any kind of weather.

Johno, let us know how the temperature stabilizes when multiple charges are put in and whether boil over and out the spout occurs. I have the option to make the barrel taller and place the second clamp heater on. 

Have you done enough cycles to know whether recrystallizing in the spout is a problem with multiple back to back runs?


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## johno

Crofter, in this last week I did a final treatment on some of my out hives with 4 hives per yard so I have not done enough trials. If I get a warm spell a little later in December I may give my 20 home hives another blast and that will tell a tale. If the unit cannot maintain enough heat maybe I could get one of the heaters Indiankentuck uses or else fit 2 of the Amazon ones onto the copper vaporizer.
Johno


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## Indiankentuck

I purchased these heaters from Ebay. $3 each and free shipping. The 25mm size fits a 3/4 cap perfectly with no gap.I think this increases the efficiency of the heater. Plus the phenolic isolates the bowl from any heat loss to the box. Without a temperature controller the temperature would be too hot very quickly. I am having no problems maintaining the temperature as vaporization occurs.


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## crofter

What I have in mind to try for a temperature control (if necessary) is a light dimmer switch. The are rated 600W if I remember correctly. I know a programmed setup would be more fool proof but this old fool feels left out if he doesn't have some knobs to twirl! Perhaps the setup will be near enough to self regulating that it will not need too much external control. 

It would be terrific if the unit can be loaded with say 4 charges and will maintain a reasonable temperature till the charges are sublimated. I had not though that the latent heat of sublimating multiple OA charges would be enough to temperature stall the process but that will become apparent on test runs. I had a cheapie infrared temperature gun that would have been handy but it went for a crap.


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## johno

I think that the higher temp creates a faster vaporization which increases the pressure inside the copper vessel and blows the vapor out into the hive, and by preheating I can get the 2 grams vaporized in 30-35 seconds with maybe 120watts, I did insulate the copper with fiberglass and that increased the efficiency some. I also have a gap of 2 nuts underneath the copper and then that onto a small piece of 1/4" fiberglass to insulate the heat from the aluminum bar the copper vessel is bolted to.
I think I will order a few of the band heaters from ebay and try them out. Crofter how is your heater working out can you measure the current draw at 120v or even from you 12v supply, even with the heater I have you can reach 500F in 5 minutes.
Johno


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## Indiankentuck

Johno, your band heater should draw more than 1 amp I'm sure. There are lots of places selling these things, I don't know if they all come from the same place in China. I agree that the higher the temp the faster the vaporization and the more pressure. There are those that argue that the OA turns to formic acid at temps above 370, but I have my doubts about that and probably will set it to a higher temp to speed the process.


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## johno

Indiankentuck I checked my AC current with a clamp meter and it read very low so I put my multi meter in series with the heater on the 10 amp scale and it was close to 1 amp draw then checked the current draw through the inverter and found 11 amps also doing a resistance measurement on the heater which measured 149 ohms this all tells me the wattage is in the 120 watt range so I need to get some of the heaters from ebay. I also used a paper mask when I did some open air tests as I mentioned I could see the crystals glittering in the sun, never even got a whiff of oxalic acid and definitely no smell of formic acid which I am quite familiar with so I do not believe the OA is breaking down to FA.
Johno


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## Flyer Jim

Indiankentuck said:


> I purchased these heaters from Ebay. $3 each and free shipping. The 25mm size fits a 3/4 cap perfectly with no gap.I think this increases the efficiency of the heater. Plus the phenolic isolates the bowl from any heat loss to the box. Without a temperature controller the temperature would be too hot very quickly. I am having no problems maintaining the temperature as vaporization occurs.



I used 3/4 caps also.Worked very well. Where do you get phenolic?


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## Indiankentuck

It was left over from a previous project. McMaster-Carr, U.S. Plastic, and Ebay sell it.


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## Arnie

I'm kind of a moron when it comes to anything electrical. How do you wire the band heater to the Mypin? And what do you use for a temperature sensor, or does the Mypin have one?

Thanks


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## dynemd

Arnie-
It's a little complicated and the Mypin comes with chinese translated (not clear) instructions. Try taking a look here at this reseller, they have clear instructions. http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=106 
http://auberins.com/images/Manual/SYL-2362 instruction 1.6.pdf
You have to decide if you want 12 volts DC or 115 volts AC. How much amperage for your band heater, do you want to use an integral relay or a more robust external SSR (solid state relay) For a temperature sensor you'll need a thermocouple and a "K" type is the most common. Like this: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20_3&products_id=144


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## johno

Arnie, if you have a mypin TA 4 the wiring diagram is on the right hand side of the unit, and shows input 90-260V so black to #1 and white to #2 one of the wires from the band heater will also go to #1 a short piece of wire then connects #2 to #3 then the other wire from the band heater goes onto #4. Normal practices would have the relay breaking the hot leg but I have purposely chosen the neutral leg (white wire) so if there is a ground fault in the heater it will not destroy the mypin contacts. $Just make sure the unit is grounded. The thermocouples I got were type K and there were 2 for $7-70 , just remove the yellow plug and connect to#7 and#8 turn the unit on and if the temp does not start climbing in about 30 secs turn it off and reverse the thermocouple leads and try again.
Johno


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## sjj

johno said:


> ... Just make sure the unit is grounded. The thermocouples ...


The thermocouples - ungrounded?
What type of inverter? Modified sine wave?


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## johno

I grounded the green conductor to the bottom of the #10 screw that holds the copper chamber to the aluminum bar with a ring connector. The sensing end of the small thermocouples I have are fixed between the bottom of the copper chamber and a washer and are held tightly together with that same #10 screw with a nut and lockwasher and you may add 1 or 2 more nuts to hold the copper chamber farther away from the aluminum bar. With the ones I built without controls I grounded the green to the aluminum bar with one of the screws securing the handle to the bar. hope that helps.
Johno


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## Arnie

Thank you. Very helpful.


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## dynemd

Here is some info on the various Mypin configurations, and an example wiring diagram. The TA*4* would be the 48 by 48 mm size (smallest) TA4 would be 90-260 volt, TA4E- 12-30 volts.


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## Arnie

Sorry to be so ignorant but....if I got a Mypin, a thermocouple, a band heater and a three prong wire/plug (like off an old toaster or some such) I could wire it according to post #27 and be in business? 
I can figure out the metal work and attaching it to a base, but a wiring diagram is Hieroglyphics to me. 

Thanks guys!


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## johno

Yes Arnie, as long as it is a TA 4 RNR and look carefully at the terminals under a good light and you will see the numbers next to the terminals.
John


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## Indiankentuck

SJJ- I am using a modified sine wave inverter. It is working fine so far, but I haven't used it a lot yet. I treated 25 hives with the band heater vaporizer early last week here at the farm mostly with a 100' extension cord plugged in at an out building. I am very pleased with how it worked. With no cool down period between hives and 2 caps it goes much quicker then with a wand. As soon as it warms a little I have 50 to treat at outlying yards that will require that I use the inverter. Will it shorten the life of the MYPIN controller? I'll see, but I don't think it will.


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## rangerpeterj

johno Were do you hook up the thermocouple. Do you bolt it to the copper pipe with the heater band ? I currently use a crack pipe ,but i think i'm over heating it with my propane torch and turning my OA to formic acid. I like the temp control of your unit. Why do you think you can't over heat your OA with your non controled unit


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## johno

Rangerpeterj, the thermocouple I used has a very small tip and I fix it to the bottom of the copper end cap with a #10 fender washer that is bolted together with the #10 mounting screw with 2 nuts. If you fit it between the copper and the band heater you will prevent the band heater from seating firmly onto the copper and will probably shorten the life of the heater and also you will be measuring the band heaters temperature. You will find if the temp is much higher than the OA sublimation temp when the OA is added the temp quickly falls to around sublimation temp due to the amount of latent heat drawn at sublimation. I think with this method you can not supply enough heat to break down the OA, with a propane torch you possibly could. I have also been using a cheap modified sine wave inverter and it has worked out fine so far.
Johno


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## crofter

johno; I just did the first few test runs. It takes about 4 minutes from cold to start seeing the first "smoke". The charge is liquified sooner though. Takes something less than a minute more for all charge to be emptied.

Dumping a fresh charge in with the unit hot starts to send off smoke almost immediately and completes in less than a minute. Dumping three charges in seems to stall it for near a minute till it appears to be smoking again, and then takes a bit less than three minutes to drive off the three charges.

I have no insulation on yet and the whole vessel is about 3 1/2" tall as I have not trimmed it. (Left space to put another band above the side discharge if needed. 

At this point with the single rated 300 watt band 30 X 25mm, I don't think there is going to be a problem with overshooting temperature unless you left power on with no charge in the vessel. I used nominal 1" dia. copper with a coupling sleeve over top to give the proper diameter for the 30mm band. Yes solder fittings are hard to find for 1" copper.

I have not decided yet what size of tubing to install for the side discharge. 

It is not ready for photos yet! 

Multiple charges look possible but my feeling is that delivery rate may not be linear with time. It would be nice to have the unit sitting on a scale and watching the discharge rate in real time.


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## johno

Hi frank, I received some more band heaters from China yesterday and checked them with a multimeter for resistance and found the four reading from 138 to 148 ohms the ones I got from Amazon were also in that range so I would say we do not have 300 watts of power. I think that when insulated you will get up to about 450 to 460F in about 4 minutes, the size of the outlet will control the internal pressure and could push the cap off if it is not a tight fit if the outlet is smaller than the 3/8" that I started with. Now that I have more band heaters I will make up a few more vaporizers with maybe a 1/4" and a 3/16" outlet and see how they work out. If you want to cut down on time it might be worthwhile using 2 heaters perhaps I will also try that. My heaters are all 25mm so will fit on the 1" copper pipe for about $3 each delivered its almost a give away. I also think that multiple charges unless more than 20 at a time will make it more difficult to get a measured charge into a hive, more than 20 would be for commercial guys.
Johno


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## crofter

If you went with two bands you might have to use temperature control but you already have that availability. For multiple charges it probably would be desireable. I did not test how long 3 charges would take to start smoking from a cold start. Certainly multiple charges will take longer to start if they are not fed in incrementally. I dont think I will pursue the multi hive dosing for now. 4 minutes warm up, then less than a minute per hive afterward will satisfy my "need for speed" for a while! I only have a dozen hives and have taken a pledge not to exceed that number!

The page I was looking at on EBay where I ordered has some higher rated heaters if I remember correctly. I think it may be important to concentrate the heat on the lowest part of the vessel. If plugging of the discharge spout becomes a concern one of the cartridge heaters could likely take care of that. From watching a similar unit on Youtube that did not seem to be a problem.


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## dynemd

If anyone is using 3/4" ID copper pipe and want a higher quality, higher performance coil heater I've found some on ebay that fit perfectly. They both have an internal diameter of 0.875" and are made by Thermetic Products. They are rated at 268 watts and 230 volts but work quite well on 120v. They have a built in "K' type thermocouple and fancy "axial clamp" type cam tightening mechamism and teflon insulation. There are two types 70A-40TJ with round coils and 80A-28RTJ with flat coils. Coil heaters are made of nickel chrome resistance wire placed inside a chrome nickel steel tube filled with MgO powder and compacted for faster and efficient heat transfer. They heat up quickly and get quite hot. $19.43 shipped. 

Round coils- http://www.ebay.com/itm/252067962143?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Flat Coils-http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Coil-B...81714cb&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=5&sd=252067962143


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## johno

I did a few tests this morning on a double deep 8 frame hive with no bees but a glass top to the hive so that I could see the effects of the vapor from the top. I first did a 2 gram shot with the original temp controlled unit with a 3/8" outlet, it took about 30 secs to vaporize but most of the vapor came up the center of the hives so that the middle 2 frames got most of the treatment. I then tried a new configuration with the heater band right on the bottom of the copper vessel and with a 3/16" outlet. This also vaporized in about 30 secs but the vapor seemed much finer and covered most of the inside of the hive with vapor leaking from the joints in many places. I had to use a silicon O ring to close off the top cap due to the increase of pressure due to the smaller outlet and the cap had to be held down for the 30 odd seconds it took to vaporize. It would appear to me that the smaller outlet is the way to go, I will now work on a way to keep the caps locked on while vaporizing I will try to post some pics of the vapor plume and of the hive setup.


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## Arnie

Nice work, johno!
I don't think you need to worry about vapor distribution in a hive full of bees. They will fan the fumes around. So probably you could go back to the 3/8 size outlet and be just fine. After all, the wand vaporizers don't blow vapor into the hive, they are passive and work well.

Anyway, good work.


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## johno

Arnie, we always try to build a better mousetrap. With the old wand system there has always been the odd hive that had more mites after treatment than it should of had so I will try to make this system foolproof. The reasons for failure to reduce mites is sometimes not clear and could well be that bees did not circulate the vapor and that channeling of the vapor occurred thereby only treating half of the bees so I think in the end more positive pressure of the vapor will be an advantage.
Johno


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## Arnie

I can't argue with that.


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## mgstei1

Johno,
Go in the side not the end on the bottom board rim if possible instead of the hive body. No holes in hive bodys and the vapor has no frame restrictions just 3/4" open area to disperse in the hive.


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## johno

Mgstei1, I have made the holes in the 3/4" rim of the bottom board not in the hive bodies. I seem to think that the vapor out of the 3/8" outlet comes out in more volume and does not spread as much, seems to stay in the center frames and does not leak out of the hive joints. With the 3/16" outlet it is completely different and is immediately noticeable through the sheet of glass and also the vapor leakage all around the hive.
Johno


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## CedarHoney

Sounds like you guys are onto something! 
Is it similar to this product http://oxavap.com/product/provap-110-sidelinercommercial-vaporizer/ ?
If so, then you should be able to market them here. Looking forward to seeing where this goes!


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## mgstei1

johno said:


> Mgstei1, I have made the holes in the 3/4" rim of the bottom board not in the hive bodies. I seem to think that the vapor out of the 3/8" outlet comes out in more volume and does not spread as much, seems to stay in the center frames and does not leak out of the hive joints. With the 3/16" outlet it is completely different and is immediately noticeable through the sheet of glass and also the vapor leakage all around the hive.
> Johno


Sounds to me like the 3/16" outlet performs better by looks if vapor off times and charge remains the same.
Best way to actually tell is by the mite drop and the colonies that make it through winter into next years honey crop or number of healthy bees.
I'll try a swaged down on my device and see if I can tell the delta.


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## johno

Just treated a line of 8 hives this afternoon with the vaporizer that has a 3/16 outlet. Once heated it was less than a minute per hive and the vapor was visibly exiting the hives from reduced entrances and all the cracks in the hives so I am pretty sure that the inside of the hives is getting a good coverage of OA. Even from working from the rear of the hives there is so much vapor around that you had better wear a mask.
Johno


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## Arnie

Nice work, johno.


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## crofter

jono;

Did you change your cap system or is it a problem with leakage now with the reduced dia. discharge opening? I have a couple of molds made to pour some caps with plaster of paris. If that does not stand the heat I have some higher temp refractory in mind.


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## johno

Frank with the 3/8" outlet there was no leakage from the cap area but once it changed to 3/16" there was more pressure on the system and I had to keep a thumb on the cap to prevent vapor escaping. I then also put a silicon O ring on the cap to make sure of a better seal. I will work on a way to lock the cap on so that one could leave the device and perhaps load up the next charge while the vaporizing continues. Any way I am much happier with the amount of fog produced with the smaller outlet which could be due to the slowing of the gas and allowing it to sublimate much better.
John


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## crofter

I did a test run today with a 5/16" delivery tube and the cap I made with high temperature RTV silicone compound. I will have to hollow the cap out a bit as it barely contained the 2 gram (1/2 tsp) charge of Oxalic acid. Needs some spit an polish but this is proof of concept test so no concessions to beauty!

The cap appears to be a tight enough friction fit to hold it in place


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## johno

How did the vapor work out Frank. I did tests on a hive with a glass top and felt I was not getting the vapor spread around with the 3/8" outlet and that's why I went to 3/16"
Johno


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## crofter

I had a piece of 3/8 cut but decided to drop down to 5/16". If that does not create enough velocity I can easily swedge it down smaller. I did get a bit of recrystallization around the snout but temperatures outside were well below freezing. I think I may shorten the delivery tube somewhat so more heat is conducted out to the end. Probably after multiple doses it will run a higher temperature there though. 

Still have to finalize handle attachment. I want to minimize thermal bridging.


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## johno

My observation hive is starting to brood up so I decided to give the a gram of OAV before they capped any brood. I gave them a shot with the covers off so that I could see the cloud of vapor, and it covered the inside of the little hive the bees really reacted to the sudden intrusion of the vapor but soon settled down to normal. It looked like the queen was laying about an hour later.
Johno


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## johno

I just made a video on youtube of the band heater vaporizer in action, I pre loaded the caps with 3 grams of OA each and changed to the second after 30 seconds so the second burn was slower. I normally use 2 grams per treatment and take about a minute to move to the second hive so would not take longer on the next burn. If one really needed to cut down on the time you could use 2 band heaters.
Here is the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxJqzRT1Gdk&t=6s
Johno


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## johno

These are the pictures of how to construct the band heater vaporizer. There is a change from the 3/8" pipe outlet to a 3/16" outlet as I found this gives a finer particulate vapor. The parts required are as follows
2 1/2" of 1" ID copper water pipe, 1 x 1" copper end cap, 2"of 3/16" copper tube, a # 10 x 3/4" mounting screw and 3 nuts, 2 pieces of 3/4" long 1" OD aluminum tubing, some 1/2 ply for the caps, a 1 x 1/8" piece of aluminum bar to mount this all on and a piece of timber to make a handle. The band heaters were purchased from Ebay for less than $4 each and were 110 volts, 300 Watts. (dimensions 25mm x 30mm) from China. The parts were welded together with copper to copper rods.
There are posts already for putting in a temperature controller if desired. I have not found it necessary.


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## texanbelchers

I got the larger band and used a 1.25" pipe. That size is not in the normal stores, so I recommend the unit listed above. My biggest issue is getting a seal on the cap which is made a 1" and 1.25" cap soldered back to back. The tube expands too much to use the cap normally.

3/8" was too big for the outlet tube. Tube blockage was a problem. I used a 1/4" OD outlet that works fairly well. I also ran the outlet vertically down by the band before turning out away from the unit. This keeps the vapor heated and lets me insert it into the entrance.


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## King_Arthur

John,
So I find this thread very helpful, but I am trying to figure out what I would really need In The electronics area for this. I am looking at band heaters - which one have you have most success with? Second do I need a thermalcouple? I would like to maybe get or have the controller just for piece of mind of what the temps are doing and in some of your posts you say it's not necessary.. I only have a few hives and I don't really like the idea of putting a hot vaporizer inside the hive with the potential for disaster... so this looks like an inexpensive alternative since I have most of the other parts less the band heater ... thnks


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## johno

The band heaters that I used are still available on ebay from about $3 each, they are 110v x 300w and are 25mm x 30mm I have a couple of these without temp control and they work just fine. Used 1" copper pipe and a 1" pipe cap and made the loading caps from ply and 1" OD aluminum tube. The directions are all in this thread but the outlet has changed to 3/16" copper tube.
Johno


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## King_Arthur

Ok one more question that maybe I am not seeing through the forum.. on your assembly how is the bolt attached to the 1" cap ... I ordered two bands from amazon. The video was very helpful but would have loved to see it up close 360 to get the full picture...thanks this is very helpfyl


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## johno

A #10 goes through a 3/16" clearance hole in the bottom of the 1" pipe cap and is fastened with 2 nuts to give some clearance off the aluminum bar and then a 3rd nut holds the whole thing onto the bar. The 3/16" hole for the outlet is made in the middle of the 1" pipe and so that it is just above the band heater clamping screw so that it will remain hot and not plug up. You will also have to replace the band heater clamping screw with a #8 or #10 screw with a nut on the outside of the clamp, Once the band heater is opened up the old screw will no longer fit. Do not make the 3/16" outlet pipe more than 2" long. I think the 1" pipe is 2 1/2" to 2 3/4" long.
Johno


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## mark2215

I'm starting to put together my own vaporizer. I just received the band heaters. Have you guys made any changes to your designs recently I should incorporate into my device? I don't have aluminum tubing so will have to find something else to use for the cap. I was thinking another 1" copper cap.


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## johno

Hi Mark,
to make up 2 caps you can use 2 3/4" end caps screwed to a piece of what ever you want to use, then use some hi temp RTV silicone around the bottom of the 3/4" cap to make a push on seal. If you try to use a 1" cap once the band heater heats up the vaporizer the expansion will prevent the top 1" cap from fitting. I am still working on trying to make a perfect cap. But as the vaporizer is you need to preheat for 4 1/2 minutes then you can easily do a hive a minute. I am also looking at using 2 band heaters on the temp controlled unit I have to see if I can get the time down to less than 30 seconds a hive
Johno.


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## mark2215

Thanks for the quick reply. I'll give the 3/4" cap a try. I'm not too worried about heat up time, I only have 4 hives and they are in my back yard so they're easy to access any time.


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## sr4440

this is what I use

https://store.mocap.com/mocap_en/mhsp.html?Item=MHSP1.036/1.246&_ga=1.31881083.417440219.1486744252

Joe


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## johno

Joe that looks very interesting and if it will stand the heat for a reasonable amount of time it could be an answer to the cap problem. Will the plug seal on its own or will the pressure push it out? Have you already used one and how did it stand up. I would like to try them.
Johno


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## sr4440

it seals good until my discharge tube clogs , then it will "pop" and shoot a few feet into the air. The hole in the center is a little small, I had to open it up with a die grinder so I could get 2 grams into it. The heat doesn't seem to be a problem (manufacture says good to 600). they are wearing a little on the edges so I think they will be used up after a season. 5 of them with shipping was around $13. I am using a 30MM band clamp and 3/4 copper cap, and union. I put a 3/4-1/2 reducer in the bottom as a heat sink.


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## johno

Those rubber caps work very well although it is difficult to open up the hole to take more OA. If you find an easy way to do this please let us know. When using the rubber cap it helps to bell the top of the 1" pipe which I do after welding the thing together and then tapping a tapered plug into the pipe until you have a small turn in the top. This allows the rubber cap to seat nicely into the pipe. If you are using any other cap that you need to hold down don't accidently turn the device upside down again as you can get that hot liquid OA come running out of there and the results are not pleasant for your fingers. The next step is to have 2 band heaters on the temp controlled unit to see if I can get treatments down to below 30 seconds continuously
Johno.


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## sr4440

John

Like I said I use a die grinder with a carbide bit, it takes a few mins and you have to clean the bit a few times but it will open it up. Now you got me thinking, 2 bands..... Do you know how much power the cheap ebay bands draw?

Joe


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## johno

Thanks Joe, The band heaters draw about 1 amp at 120V so 2 would be twice that or around 20 amps through a 12v inverter so I would say a little over 300 watts. I think this would require temperature control. I tried grinding those rubber caps with a small stone in a dremel, enlarged the hole a little but it took forever, what type of bit did you use.
Johno


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## sr4440

I used a Carbide burr in a cheap (harbor freight) air powered die grinder. looks like this https://www.amazon.com/Carbide-Kang...=1499351492&sr=8-19&keywords=die+grinder+bits
I am using a TA4-RNR, and a 300 watt inverter....... Now I know what I am working on this weekend. LOL 
With one heater, it takes about 90 seconds to do a hive, I would like to shorten that up a little. 

Joe


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## rangerpeterj

Johno I have been following your thread for some time ,it has inspired me to build my own vaporizers on your design thank you for that buy the way.I built two like yourself one with pid controller one not . I made my plugs just like yours except I put a thin coating of black RTV on under side of the cap to help seat and heat proof. On testing them I found as you the pid controller had to be turned up to 500 degrees to sublime the OA and took 45 to 50 seconds to totally finish . The none pid controlled one did about the same.The temperature as checked with cheap Harbor Freight tool showed 500 degrees. They tested good on empty box and glass top ,time after time. I have yet to gas the bees with these units. My question to you is do they work on killing mites and do they turn the OA to formic acid and co2. Pete


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## johno

Hi Pete, I have been treating at least 50 colonies with the simple uncontrolled device and have been getting good mite drops after treatments. I am still playing with the design to try to get the treatment time down to less than a minute per hive and find that this is not possible with just 1 band heater so am busy building one that will have 2 band heaters and is temp controlled. The device with a single heater is slowed down as the sublimation and boiling off of the water held by the OA requires more energy than the band heater can produce so there has to be a lapse of about 30 seconds before the system can be re loaded to sublimate again. As far as the degradation of the OA to formic and Co2 if there is any from the single heater device I have not been able to sense it by smell through a paper particle mask, however if you were to sublimate a test sample on a still morning and let the plume rise towards the sun you would be able to see the fine OA crystals glittering in the sun. I have found that 2grames of OA will sublimate in less than 30 seconds when the device has been pre heated for 4 1/2 minutes so would like to be able to continue to treat at such short intervals and the reason for 2 band heaters.
Johno


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## rangerpeterj

Thanks for your reply Johno I'm excited to use mine this summer last year I was using a DIY pipe heated with my propane torch ,it worked well but was troublesome.My hives did good through the winter but I need a better way to treat. I've been following your direction on two band heaters .I would think it would get to hot keep us informed of your progress ,its inspiring for us tinkerers and DIY kind of beeks . Pete


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## johno

Joe I ground out the inside of 3 plugs and used them when I treated 7 hives in one of my outyards this morning, the top of the vaporizer I used was slightly belled at the top and the silicone plugs closed off completely allowing me to leave the vaporizer hanging in the treatment hole while I prepared the charge and shut off the entrance to the next hive. The only hiccup I have is that the hole is still a little small and takes a little time to fill with OA, So I intend to grind away some more and try to make the cavity larger. This also allows me to move away from the vapor so I might get away from using a mask as near 90 temps and high humidity do not make wearing a mask much fun.
Johno


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## King_Arthur

So i a revisiting this project. I built one and it works well. I am looking to build one with temperature control. I have looked through this thread and my previous questions... I know i have asked about this, but not looking for some more details on what and how.

I and looking at PIDs and thermocouples but not sure how they are attached to the setup to control and monitor the temperature. even if someone has pictures of how this is setup would be great. I am also looking for a better cap. any help would be great


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## johno

King Arthur,If you have a temp controller there is a drawing on the side that gives you the connections, The info that comes with the controller tells you what types you can use. I searched amazon for type K thermocouples, the types used on volt meters that has only the twisted wire exposed so that that bit of exposed thermocouple can be bolted between the bottom of the copper and a stainless steel washer. The best tops I have found so far are the high temp silicone plugs in post 216. I used a dremel and a small grindstone to open up the hole in the cap to make it big enough to take at least 2 grams of OA. I have just completed a vaporizer, temp controlled with 2 band heaters. I find I have to set the temp up at 550F to be able to get a 30 cycle of OA. Once the OA hits the bottom of the vaporizer the temp drops down to the 330F mark and then slowly climbs up towards the 450F mark and by the time you have the next shot ready to go it is above the 500 F mark. This goes to show that 2 band heaters still do not supply enough energy to overcome the latent heat required to sublimate the OA Quickly, although it has speeded up the process to close to 30 seconds.
Johno


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## johno

Sorry the post #67 deals with rubber caps.
Johno


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## aiannar974

Hello Johno - Did you solder the pieces together or use silver solder? Wish I would have seen this earlier. I bought a band heater on ebay for about $2.7. It is 25mm and 300 watt. I am using a tee with a bottom cap and a top cap and the tee is smaller coming out with the tube for the hive. My first run was outside the hive with no solder. I have soldered the joints now and hope they hold at the temps. Have not tried it again yet. I spent much more on copper components than the heater. Lastly, your tube that goes into the hive, did you just drill a hole in the side and solder it in or did you flare it or something?

Anthony


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## johno

aiannar I used copper silver alloy to weld these things together, so you need oxy acetylene for the job. Those are the same band heaters that I have been using but I am afraid they produce only about 100 to 120 watts, however they can do the job if you are looking at doing a hive a minute with a 41/2 minute pre heat time. I have found that the outlet pipe must be no bigger than 3/16" for best results and that the cap that loads in the OA must seal at the top otherwise too much vapor is lost past the cap. when the system pre heats for 41/2 minutes it gets up to about 500F so the normal tin based solders can't handle that.
Johno


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## aiannar974

John - Thank you for the quick response. It looks like I will need to rethink a few things. It might be time to invest in another toy. I do not have oxy acetylene system. - Anthony


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## sr4440

Aiannar974 after finding out the hard way that solder melts at 425F, I went and bought a TS4000KC Trigger Start Torch Kit with MAPP gas. I also went to ebay and purchased some 15% silver Brazing Rods which worked out way better then expected. I was able to braze the copper pipe with no problem. 


Joe


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## aiannar974

Thank you for the info. I will be doing something similar.


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## johno

I am very happy with the latest vaporizer I built, with 2 band heaters and a Mypin temp controller. The unit gets to above 500F in about 2 minutes so I do not need a timer as I can read the temp. when the charge is inserted using the rubber caps the temp drops down to about 330F and then starts rising when it gets above 400 the vaporization is done and the unit can be moved to treat the next hive. By the time the charge is added the temp is again above 500F so the cycle begins again. The time to vaporize is below 30 secs so the treatment time depends on how quickly you can close off entrances and load your charges into the rubber caps. Actual treatment is below a minute a hive but one still has to kit up light the smoker and run out the cod from the inverter but all in all not much more than a minute a hive in a 7 hive yard maybe a total of 10 minutes.
Johno


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## sr4440

Johno
Did you put the discharge tube above both heaters or between? 

Joe


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## aiannar974

do you have any pictures?


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## johno

sr4440, the outlet pipe is at the lower half of the upper band heater just below the fixing screw. I will post a pic as soon as I get one done. What I would like to find is a box of sorts that I could mount the temp controller and all the connections into. If it was winter I would try to make drawings and print one, but too much happening at the moment.
Johno


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## johno

Here are some pics of the temp controlled 2 band heater vaporizer, This one has a3/4" end cap welded onto the bottom of the 1" copper pipe so that the heater can get closer to the bottom where the OA ends up. Note the rubber caps from Mocap, this has been the best for sealing the top of the vaporizer and no vapor escapes from the top and the device can be left hanging in the hole while you prepare the next hive.













Johno


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## aiannar974

Hello Johno - I tried to use the one i built today. It is 3/4 end cap with a tee that necked down to 1/4" pipe. I used a 3/4 cap on top with a 3/4 pipe in it to go into the tee. When i flipped the unit it seems the acid slid down the side and sort of froze there. What do think the issues might be? Could it just be only the bottom of the pipe was hot enough? 

Anthony


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## johno

Aiannar, if the OA did not start to boil and vaporize your device has not got hot enough. With one band heater and 21/2" of copper pipe it requires 41/2 minutes to preheat, with 2 band heaters 21/2 minutes to 550F. What band heaters are you using and what type of pipe fittings are you using. Of course the inside of the pipe must be clean as any coating could prevent direct contact to the hot metal. I have found that after a number of treatments the inside of my device needs to be cleaned due to a dark residue the tends to coat the copper bottom and slow down sublimation.
Johno


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## aiannar974

Thank you Johno - I put a link of the heater I am using. I am using one. It is 110v and 300 watt - 25mm x 30 mm. They are really cheap and easy to get, I can add another. I am using copper pipe.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/110V-300W-2...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


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## johno

Aiannar, those are the same heaters that I am using. There should be a heater as close to the bottom as possible and it should be ready to vaporize in about 41/2 minutes. If you use 2 heaters you might need to temperature control.
Johno


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## allniter

MR JOHNO---is the 3/16 copper tube --od or id ---

do U need the temp controller with 2 band heater 

MOCAPS hold just enough OXALIC ACID for one hive ----thanks for the info


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## johno

Allniter the copper pipe is 3/16" OD, it is soft, in coils and you can purchase it by the foot at Ace Hardware. The Mocap hole is quite small and I had to grind it out with a Dremel and a small grind stone but has given me the best seal so far. I would recommend a temperature controller if you use 2 band heaters, if the system temperature gets too high you may have problems with a build up of copper oxide inside the vessel and this will slow down sublimation.
Johno


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## cervus

Been over this thread several times. Thanks for posting, good stuff. I'm going to try fabricating one soon. One question; is the connection terminal block attached to the band heater or is that purchased separately?


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## johno

Cervus, the ones I purchased from ebay that had the ceramic terminal block in the illustration all came with the terminal block attached to a metal strip. I removed the attaching screw and cut the metal strip so that I could get the connections closer to the copper pipe otherwise the device would be very long.
Johno


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## King_Arthur

I built one of these last season, and I think I am going to build a double band one but still not sure what I would need with regards to the temp control unit... one band heater does work but requires a few minutes to reheat between treatments....


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## cervus

King_Arthur said:


> I built one of these last season, and I think I am going to build a double band one but still not sure what I would need with regards to the temp control unit... one band heater does work but requires a few minutes to reheat between treatments....


About how many minutes to reheat? Do you think it's faster than a vaporizer wand that requires cooling-down then reheating? I'm looking for something that won't overheat the OA and that will reduce the time required for the heat-up/cool down-cycle of vaporizer wands.


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## johno

When using a single heater vaporizer you need to pre heat the device for 41/2 minutes, the first charge is normally sublimated in about 30 secs which gives you plenty of time to smoke and close off the next hives entrance, charge your next cap with OA and move the device and load so you are in the area of 1 minute per colony. You need to make sure that your device is clean inside as some sort of residue can build up inside and this will radically slow down sublimation. I use a pot scourer I stole from the kitchen and push a stick into the scourer and twist it around the inside of the vaporizer to keep the copper clean. I have never seen any problems with overheating the OA, even with my 2 heater vaporizer when the OA is dropped into the device the temp drops down to about 340 degrees until the OA is sublimated then climbs back up to 500 degrees. Temperature controllers are available at Amazon and ebay for little more than $20 you will require a K type of thermocouple, but you need a very small tip like the ones that are used on instruments, I will see if I can find a supplier. The temp controller I used was a TA4-RNR Mypin controller.
Johno


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## aiannar974

I would think that a simple thermostat would work. There are so many out there with no temp control I would think a little overshoot would not hurt. The PID would help prevent this but costs a lot more and adds to the wiring complication. Maybe this could be mounted to the bottom of the unit. One is set at 250c and the other 220c. 

https://www.amazon.com/Celsius-Temperature-Switch-Ceramic-Thermostat/dp/B008X0XZSI

https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Tempe...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=84B5ZJVZHQYYF6NGDWK5


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## cervus

One minute per colony will cut my time by 2/3 at least. I think for the price, I'll try the single band heater first without the controller and then go from there. This seems like a great way to speed up vaporization without spending an arm and a leg on one of the production models. Johno, do you scrub the device after every charge or just as needed? My wand has the same residue, but it is only cleaned after a session of 7 hives or so. Of course, dipping in water to cool has the added benefit of removing some of the residue.


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## sjj

cervus said:


> ... then go from there. ...


Try a PD action mode instead of PID.


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## johno

Cervus I only clean the chamber after I have completed the hives in a yard maybe after 14 hives at my home yard. I have just looked at cleaning with hot water and an old tooth brush and that cleans it very well, so I think a good clean every now and then should be part of the schedule. Those thermostats shown in an earlier post would be interesting, however they are meant to be fixed to a flat hot surface so that will pose difficulties. The mypin TA4-RNR is just an on off control with some parameters that can be added, but for a vaporizer a very simple application is required.
Johno


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## cervus

Thanks. I think the unit without the controller is the route I'll take. I had experience with PIDs in my brewing days for maintaining mash temperatures. Nice features, but not too user-friendly when adjusting parameters. I'm looking to simplify.


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## crofter

I have just added the second band to my unit and will put a light dimmer slide switch on the top band only. It will take a bit of tinkering to work out the timing but the same is true of the uncontrolled tray type evaporators.


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## cervus

crofter said:


> I have just added the second band to my unit and will put a light dimmer slide switch on the top band only. It will take a bit of tinkering to work out the timing but the same is true of the uncontrolled tray type evaporators.


Frank, why just the top heater? Won't the uncontrolled bottom heater negate any adjustment made to the top heater? Or are you just looking to keep the thing pre-heated at all times?


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## crofter

cervus said:


> Frank, why just the top heater? Won't the uncontrolled bottom heater negate any adjustment made to the top heater? Or are you just looking to keep the thing pre-heated at all times?


It does not appear to overheat with just the lower unit powered continuously. That is provided you dont have delays recharging and moving to the next colony. 

It would be a thought though to have the dimmer control both. I think the dimmers are rated 600 Watts. Quicker warm up would be a plus but I also want to put more heat into the discharge pipe to prevent recrystllization. I am presently at 3/8" OD and would go smaller if making another from scratch. It is not a show stopper but it does make sealing of the charging cap more critical.


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## cervus

How long did it take the band heaters ordered on ebay to arrive? I've received a delivery window of nearly 60 days!


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## crofter

cervus said:


> How long did it take the band heaters ordered on ebay to arrive? I've received a delivery window of nearly 60 days!


I think it was 15 days.


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## Greeny

cervus said:


> How long did it take the band heaters ordered on ebay to arrive? I've received a delivery window of nearly 60 days!


I'm curious too. My order is projected to arrive sometime between Aug and Oct....


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## cervus

Good. I've already started OAV with the wand due to threshold counts on a cut-out. Seems a little bit early for here, but gotta go with the counts. Hopefully I'll have one of these built in time for the single winter clean-up treatment.


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## johno

Cervus I have always received my heaters 10 to 15 days after placing the order. I have just figured out why the double heater vaporizer is not as fast as I would like. To get a heater as close to the bottom as possible I welded a 3/4" end cap inside of the 1" copper pipe and after pondering why the sublimation time is not much better than a single heater vaporizer which has a 1" end cap welded onto the 1" copper pipe. It struck me that it was to do with the surface area of the bottoms of the end caps, in other words larger area for the OA to sublimate on the quicker the sublimation. I would really like to make up something with about an 11/2" diameter.
Johno


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## rangerpeterj

cervus when I ordered mine it took a long time that 60 day window was given to me as well ,it was about a month and a half . I all most give up on them but they finally came and work well Pete


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## crofter

johno said:


> Cervus I have always received my heaters 10 to 15 days after placing the order. I have just figured out why the double heater vaporizer is not as fast as I would like. To get a heater as close to the bottom as possible I welded a 3/4" end cap inside of the 1" copper pipe and after pondering why the sublimation time is not much better than a single heater vaporizer which has a 1" end cap welded onto the 1" copper pipe. It struck me that it was to do with the surface area of the bottoms of the end caps, in other words larger area for the OA to sublimate on the quicker the sublimation. I would really like to make up something with about an 11/2" diameter.
> Johno


I think you will be happy with a larger diameter.

I made one that is 1 1/4" O.D. The 1" bands can be expanded and shaped to stretch this far. That leaves the ends of the bands spread enough that with a bit of dremel work will allow the outlet to come out the side, yet have the bands just about touching. I made a bottom from a piece of 1/8 thick red brass. The nozzle is 5/16" O.D. and I went to some pains to give it more heat contact area. I think you would not have to get that elaborate though.

I have not timed with a stop watch but it appears to get the charge off in about 30 seconds and recovery is very fast with both bands heating. I have not experimented with throttling the upper band yet but I think that unless you are very quick to recharge and move to the next hive it might overheat a bit.

I just stuck the unit into a block of wood, but a better mounting could be done. It would be nice not to have the handle attachment robbing away a lot of the heat from the vessel.
This type of unit discharging into a drilled hole in rear of bottom board sure would be miles ahead of tray type inserted through the front entrance.

That is a rotary light dimmer switch which can give 0 - 100% power to the upper heater.


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## aiannar974

Hello Crofter - Are you using fittings and butt welding them or are you putting a 1" copper pipe in the fitting? What are you using as a cap? Are you placing your charge in the cap?


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## crofter

aiannar974 said:


> Hello Crofter - Are you using fittings and butt welding them or are you putting a 1" copper pipe in the fitting? What are you using as a cap? Are you placing your charge in the cap?


Charging cap is a piece of shovel handle turned to fit inside vessel. A groove about 1/4 wide and 1/16" deep is filled with high temp silicone provides the seal. For this unit I used a piece of 1 1/2" copper pipe and cut out a section to reduce diameter to 1/14" . Bottom is made from a section of a 1" brass nipple and flattened to make a disc. All joints are made with Sil Phos alloy which is fluxless on copper and brass. Oxy acetylene torch needed

I would like to find some teflon to make the caps as the wood is charring a bit. You need some type of an O ring to flex enough to make a good seal.

The larger diameter allows a measuring cavity in the cap that is large enough for easy filling and clean dumping into the vessel when you flip the unit. As Johno mentions the greater surface area probably results in faster processing of the charge. The second band on top puts more heat into the discharge pipe which prevents recrystallizing at the tip.

Fittings that size are rather hard to acquire and pricey.


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## sr4440

crofter said:


> Fittings that size are rather hard to acquire and pricey.


less then $20 for 5 of them shipped.
https://store.mocap.com/mocap_en/mhsp.html?Item=MHSP1.036/1.246&_ga=1.31881083.417440219.1486744252


Joe


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## aiannar974

Does that fit enough acid? I run 3 medium brood boxes. I understand that needs 3/4 of a tsp. I don't know why they recommend 1/4 tsp per brood box no matter size of frames? I found some dimensions on another site. It looks like the ID is about 0.53 and the depth is 0.75. This volume would be 0.166 cu inches and this is 0.55 tsp.


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## crofter

People have used fittings or sections of them to make the body; that is what I was considering hard to get and expensive. I used parts of a tee to make my first one.

Those silicone plugs would likely be close to containing the capacity for three deeps dose if you went to a larger OD. pipe. I will have to check out that source and see if anything similar is available in a Canadian source.


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## johno

Crofter the original vaporizers I made used a 1" copper end cap which is in fact 11/4" OD so there is quite a lot more surface area. I need to go back to that with the 2 heater vaporizer and I am sure it will cut down the sublimation time. There are other band heaters available that are for 11/2" ID at 250watts from suppliers to the injection moulding industry so I might want to work in that direction. The caps from Mocap work very well however the hole in the middle needs to be ground out to accept about 2.5 grams. They make quite a range of those caps so if a vaporizer is made with a larger OD one of the larger caps may take the 2.5 grams without any mods. Crofter it may be easier to mount the vaporizer with a screw through the bottom using a bunch of nuts to lift it off a piece of metal that can be then screwed to a piece of hard wood.
Johno


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## johno

Just as a matter of interest the surface area of the bottom of a 3/4" cap is .502" whereas the 1" cap is 1.13", more than twice the surface area, that should make a significant time difference.
Johno


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## sr4440

aiannar974 said:


> Does that fit enough acid? I run 3 medium brood boxes. I understand that needs 3/4 of a tsp. I don't know why they recommend 1/4 tsp per brood box no matter size of frames? I found some dimensions on another site. It looks like the ID is about 0.53 and the depth is 0.75. This volume would be 0.166 cu inches and this is 0.55 tsp.


The answer is No they don't hold enough acid the way they come to you. I had to use a die grinder and open up the center, not hard to do.


Joe


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## allniter

it took 15 days to get my heaters ---I'm building up my until now --using a flat sheet of stainless steel for the bottom --2' S/S screw braze on the bottom -- 1" S/S pipe using--- wedge the 1' pipe open so I can use MOCAPS rubber stoppers ---1/4" S/S discharge pipe --one heater --building a metal U shape with feet --- using it upside down to screw to the bottom of until --so the heat isn't going to metal the unit is setting on--not smart enough to put pictures on here sorry --LOL


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## cervus

Think these would work as caps or are they too thin to handle due to heat?
https://www.mcmaster.com/#silicone-caps/=18xagcr


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## johno

Cervus, the only way to know is to try them out, either the 1" or 11/16" should work. I would think the 11/16" would seal OK.
John


----------



## cervus

johno said:


> Cervus, the only way to know is to try them out, either the 1" or 11/16" should work. I would think the 11/16" would seal OK.
> John


Looks like that hardness scale is about like an inner tube or door seal. I ordered the ones linked in this thread instead. I know they'll work.


----------



## johno

Well guys I just finished the Mark 3 vaporizer, I have changed the 2 band vaporizer so that it is back to a 1" end cap on the bottom with a 25mm band heater stretched over the cap then the second heater on the 1" pipe. So now the bottom surface area has more than doubled over the 3/4" end cap I used on the last 2 band heater vaporizer. The results Just over 21/2 minutes to heat up over 450F and the OA charge vaporizes in 10secs so I can do 2 charges in less than 1 minute. what I might do next is get a 30mm x 25mm band heater for a better fit on the 1"copper end cap. I think maybe this is going to be as good as it can get.
Johno


----------



## GarrickG

Here's my version. It's made from a 1" copper stub out "bullet" so no cap needed. It heats well and does the job in about 20 seconds...


----------



## johno

GarrickG, the one I have just built vaporizes in 10 seconds which is about half the time my old one completed a charge. I put this down to the flat surface area of the 3/4" end cap I used in the old vaporizer against the flat surface area of a 1"end cap I used in the new one. I do not know where you got your bullet, but it will certainly vaporize quicker than a wand. However if you are doing many hives dropping the vaporizing time is the way to go and a flat large surface area will beat a small flat or pointy surface area all the time.
Johno


----------



## rangerpeterj

I wonder if on of these would work better then having two band heaters, a little more money but made in USA from grainger 
https://www.grainger.com/product/TEMPCO-Band-Heater-2VXV4?functionCode=P2IDP2PCP Pete


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## johno

Rangerpeterj, I am sure it will work but I think you will definitely have to temperature control the device. I have a List from an American manufacturer and they are reasonably priced say for 11/2" x 11/2" at 250watts at about $10 but for orders of 5. Then again we are getting the others from China practically for nothing as I could not ship anything in the USA for their prices shipped free.
Johno


----------



## rangerpeterj

I got some of those band heaters . The first one I made as you did was temp controlled with pid ,then I made an uncontrolled one that takes 4 to 5 min to heat up and supblimes in 30 to 45 sec. The time is not the factor for me. I think what I have will work for me, but at 900 deg and 2 inches tall I would think I would'nt have to do all the wierd insulation with fibergass. I was having trouble keeping the temp up on cool days Pete


----------



## johno

The Insulation just makes it more efficient and also there is less chance accidently setting something alight while you are doing something else also less surface area for burns. You would still need temp control on a 250 watt heater as too high a temp could also shorten the life of the heater.
Johno


----------



## rangerpeterj

I was thinking on adding this to my tep controlled vaporizer to get up to temp quicker and hold temp more consistent like your two band heater units but kept at a consistent 550 deg F Pete


----------



## GarrickG

johno said:


> GarrickG, the one I have just built vaporizes in 10 seconds which is about half the time my old one completed a charge. I put this down to the flat surface area of the 3/4" end cap I used in the old vaporizer against the flat surface area of a 1"end cap I used in the new one. I do not know where you got your bullet, but it will certainly vaporize quicker than a wand. However if you are doing many hives dropping the vaporizing time is the way to go and a flat large surface area will beat a small flat or pointy surface area all the time.
> Johno


Stub outs (bullets) are pretty common. The 1" size less so. I had to order it. https://www.ferguson.com/product/sioux-chief-cts-stub-out-and-air-chamber-s624l/_/A-ProdFamily-88175


----------



## johno

Rangerpeterj, I think if you have sufficient heat source you could probably keep the set temperature below 500F as you will see the temp drop into the 330F range during sublimation. The only reason I have set the temp around the 500F area is because the power of the 2 heaters is not much more than 200 watts so I try to make use of the stored heat. The commercial unit now on the market uses 300 watts and is generally set at about 450F, so as engineers may say " you have to just cut and try " Or as it generally goes with me " I have cut it twice and it is still too short "
Johno


----------



## aiannar974

I think the 900 dog is max operating temp. Theses heaters are restistant heaters with either mica or ceramic electrical insulation . As they heat the resistance goes up. The ultimate temperature is a function of that input vs the losses which would be to the oa vaporization and the atmosphere and if the thing burns up. Watt-hours is a measure of heat. This is not the same as temperature. Heat in a small tip like a soldering iron is a real high temperature but the same heat in a room does not move the temperature much. This means the watt-hours vs the size of the unit and losses will give temperature.


----------



## crofter

I did 8 hives yesterday and experimented a bit with throttling back the upper heater. With both bands on full heat my time at recharging and moving to the next hive seemed to result in things getting just a bit hotter than necessary. Not very scientific! With a helper I think there would be no waiting time or overheating with both bands on full.

Certainly having auto temperature control would be nice and a must on any units produced for the general public.


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## johno

Frank I think all I need is to have the device hot and ready when I am ready to treat the next hive, I doubt that one person can move from hive to hive close off the entrance and treat in under 30 seconds it would probably take a little longer. The other advantage of a temp controller is that you will use less power so a lower draw from your battery if you are using an inverter. So all in all I am quite happy with the results of the latest say mark 3 vaporizer.
Johno


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## NAC89

I'm planning on building one of these soon as I can get my band heaters. Already got them ordered just waiting on the delivery. I've got the aluminum and I can get the 1" pipe and end cap at the box store, also have the acetylene torch for the welding. My questions are 1.Is the 3/16" pipe the soft copper tubing for refrigerant lines? Smallest I can find listed at the box stores is 1/4" but I haven't checked with any of the local HVAC/plumbing places. 2.Is the end cap welded to the 1" pipe?


----------



## sr4440

I got my 3/16 hard line off ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-16-1875-R...hash=item1a083296bc:m:mJxasyMx85tZZ9d5TfYxR5Q

the end cap is welded on the pipe.

Joe


----------



## NAC89

sr4440 said:


> I got my 3/16 hard line off ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-16-1875-R...hash=item1a083296bc:m:mJxasyMx85tZZ9d5TfYxR5Q
> 
> the end cap is welded on the pipe.
> 
> Joe


Thanks for the link! I appreciate it!


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## Cjj

Just picked up one of these, Tailgater 900 Max Starting/700 Running Watts, 2 HP (63cc) 2 Cycle Gas Generator EPA/CARB $89 at Harbor freight


----------



## cervus

1/4" OD standard tubing has ~ 3/16" ID. Is this what you guys are using for your outlet? 3/16" OD is hard to source.


----------



## sr4440

cervus said:


> 1/4" OD standard tubing has ~ 3/16" ID. Is this what you guys are using for your outlet? 3/16" OD is hard to source.


4 posts above your post, #143 gives a link to 3/16 OD tubing.

Joe


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## cervus

sr4440 said:


> 4 posts above your post, #143 gives a link to 3/16 OD tubing.
> 
> Joe


Yeah, saw that earlier. I was just looking for something I could pick-up (and bring home) this week.


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## sr4440

they shipped my tubing fast, I think it was the same day, you should have it by the end of the week.


Joe


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## cervus

sr4440 said:


> they shipped my tubing fast, I think it was the same day, you should have it by the end of the week.
> 
> 
> Joe


Good to know. Thanks.


----------



## johno

I picked up 3/16" OD tubing from Ace Hardware.
Johno


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## NAC89

I built my vaporizer just like johno's but mine doesn't seem to vaporize near as quickly as yours nor does it shoot out a nice cloud of vapor. My first one I built out of 1" copper and I could hardly get it hot enough to vaporize within 4-5 minutes till I insulated it. After insulating it heats up much quicker but still my vaporization is well over a minute. I just built another one today out of a 3/4" end cap welded to a 3/4" slip coupling so I could get the band heater at the bottom and this one heats up very quickly without any insulation. I need to come up with a good cap for it and I think it will work out pretty well.


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## johno

NAC89, check your band heaters, make sure they are not for 220 volts. If you have a meter with an Ohm scale they should measure around 150 ohms. I have made many of these and they will be ready to use after 41/2 minutes if insulated. They will sublimate a charge in less than 30 seconds and you could treat a hive a minute. I used a 1" copper end cap welded to 21/2" of 1" copper pipe and the band heater was as close as I could get it to the 1" end cap.
Johno


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## johno

When I first made a vaporizer with 2 x 25mm band heaters I used a 3/4" cap welded inside the 1" pipe, I found the sublimation was not much faster than the single band heater devices. I came to the conclusion that the speed of sublimation was proportional to the surface area of the bottom of the cap. So I made the next one with a 1" cap and really opened up the one 25mm heater to go around some of the 1" cap and the other around the 1" pipe as close to the cap as possible. This was temperature controlled also insulated and would heat up to 500F in 21/2 minutes. The 2 to 3 gram charge would sublimate in about 20 seconds, as soon as the OA hits the bottom the temperature drops to about 340F until sublimation is complete then rises above 400F. I have found that when treating I charge all 3 caps while waiting for the device to get to over 500F when this occurs the first cap goes on and the treatment commences and when complete remove the cap to cool and load the next cap and so it goes when I have loaded the 3rd cap, I then charge the first cap and by then the 3rd treatment is complete so from then on I can treat as fast as I can load my next cap so in all the treatment can take about 30 seconds plus a little walking time per hive. The other thing of note is that there can be a residue build up on the bottom of the cap so using a pot scourer I will clean the inside of the device before I visit the yard to be treated, if not cleaned from time to time that residue effects the heat transfer and the sublimation time increases.
Johno


----------



## NAC89

I've got my 3/4" slip coupling vaporizer working perfect now. I discovered my problem, too much OA. I had bought a wand vaporizer last year from a local beekeeper that makes them and I was using the measuring device that came with it, turns out that equaled about the equivalent dose of 4 brood boxes per scoop, I was using two scoops!! Way too much OA! I've now got this vaporizer to 4 minutes pre heat and 30 second vaporizing. Also came up with a super simple cap, I cut a 1 to 1-1/2" piece of 3/4" PEX pipe and slightly chamfered the end and it fits perfectly and snugly into the coupling, put an end cap on and good to go. From some prior experience I knew that pex pipe will withstand heat pretty well, it did get somewhat soft after using the same cap for 3 consecutive doses but that won't be problem when having more then one cap ready at a time ( only had one ready at the time for trial). I'll post a pic of my vaporizer but excuse the handle, thought I had something better to use instead of a stick lol.


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## NAC89

By the way thanks for posting all the info that you did johno, I really appreciate it! This will take my 3 hour treatment down to well less than an hour now. Will really be a big help as I plan on expanding next year.


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## johno

NAC89, what is a slip coupling and where would they be used and obtained.
Johno


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## NAC89

johno said:


> NAC89, what is a slip coupling and where would they be used and obtained.
> Johno


Johno they are in the plumbing section at Home Depot. This is the one I got http://www.homedepot.com/p/3-4-in-Copper-Pressure-C-x-C-Coupling-with-Stop-C600HD34/100343588. I guess this one is not technically a "slip" coupling because it has a stop in it. They are the same outside diameter as the 3/4" end caps and to braze them together I cut a short piece of copper to fit into the end cap and the slip coupling and it worked out perfectly.


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## johno

NAC89, thanks now I understand, you have welded an end cap to the coupling. I was wondering if it was something like that bullet fitting that one of the guys used. I am still looking for an easier way to do this but finding the parts is not so easy.
Johno


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## lakebilly

How do you power these in remote locations? inverter?


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## aiannar974

I was hoping to take a 1" slip coupling and a cap and butt welding them together. I have not had the time to try it yet.

Anthony


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## GarrickG

johno said:


> NAC89, thanks now I understand, you have welded an end cap to the coupling. I was wondering if it was something like that bullet fitting that one of the guys used. I am still looking for an easier way to do this but finding the parts is not so easy.
> Johno


This is an "air chamber". It has a 1" inside diameter and about 1-1/8" outside diameter. It was about $7 plus shipping...







Here's a link...
https://www.essentialhardware.com/e...n-30500-copper-air-chamber-12-x-6-130934.html


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## johno

lakebilly I use a 600 watt inverter clipped onto my truck battery when treating my out yards with a 50 foot extension cord. easy to move around not like lugging a battery around. At my home I just use a 100Ft light cord and I can get to all my hives.
GarrickG I wonder if you can get that part for 1I/2" as I am trying to find something with an 11/2" bore.
Johno


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## Saltybee

Yes, but price defeats purpose; Ok that link will not work $277.65

/www.ferguson.com/category/plumbing/rough-plumbing/water-hammer-arrestors/_/N-zbq4lxZzbqlgd


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## johno

I am looking at buying an 11/2" x 250 watt band heater which would fit on a 11/2" coupling or maybe on a 11/2" end cap and could then use larger mocap caps so no need to grind out like the smaller ones. But so far the 1" model is doing fine, just did 9 hives this morning in my out yards in very little time. The only problem I can see is that the mocap caps are wearing out from the heat effecting the thin edges from grinding out the middle to accept the charge so after a while the edges start breaking off. Not a major problem as the caps are not all that expensive but it is a pain grinding out the new ones. Saltybee the 11/2" couplings and end caps are reasonably cheap but at this point the end cap is not deep enough and the coupling has no bottom, easy enough to sort out if one has a lathe handy and a bottom could be made with a piece of brass maybe that will be a winter project.
Johno


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## Saltybee

I do not have pieces to play with to confirm fits to band heater. I would think a 1.5 cap with a 1.5 pipe slightly compressed by cutting would be an easy fit for 1.5 caps to use as a mocap replacement. A little lapping compound and you would have a valve seat type fit between pipe and caps. Filled caps mounted while inverted and flipped to melt.

Height easily changed with slip coupling over pipe to fit band or bands.

Wouldn't silver solder stay in temp range ?


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## johno

Saltybee, with a 3/16" outlet this thing builds a little pressure to blow out the vapor and it is better to have a cap that seals the top otherwise you get quite a bit of leakage around the cap and these Mocap rubber caps do a good job. I have tried all sorts of ways to make up loading caps but they all leak some and have problems and the rubber caps have been the best. I have also found that the greater the surface area of the bottom of the device the quicker the sublimation. the other fact is that the Chinese band heaters are only about 100 watts so on my temp controlled unit I use 2 however the 2nd is quite far from the bottom where the heat is really required. It also appears that the larger mocap caps have a larger hole in the inside so will not have to open up the hole and the edges will be thicker, but we will see in the winter.
Johno


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## GarrickG

johno said:


> lakebilly I use a 600 watt inverter clipped onto my truck battery when treating my out yards with a 50 foot extension cord. easy to move around not like lugging a battery around. At my home I just use a 100Ft light cord and I can get to all my hives.
> GarrickG I wonder if you can get that part for 1I/2" as I am trying to find something with an 11/2" bore.
> Johno


How 'bout something like this? They're about 1-1/2" in diameter. Of course you'd have to empty them in an appropriate manner...:shhhh:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/74g-co2-cartridges-pack-of-2


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## Saltybee

Is the ac converter required? Simple resistance heater should work with either ac or dc?


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## aiannar974

It will heat on 12v dc but not very fast or hot. Some others had issues with 220v bands running at 120v.


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## johno

The band heater vaporizers we have made run on 110V, so at my home yard I use an extension cord plugged into a 110v outlet and in my outyards where there is no power supply I use a small inverter connected to my pick up truck and again an extension cord to the vaporizer. Yes it can work on AC or DC so if you want to lug around 10 x 12V batteries connected in series that will work, but I will prefer to use my $40 inverter.
Johno


----------



## Saltybee

johno said:


> Yes it can work on AC or DC so if you want to lug around 10 x 12V batteries connected in series that will work, but I will prefer to use my $40 inverter.
> Johno


More thinking of parking the old JD garden tractor than lifting.


----------



## johno

I just treated some of my home hives with a band heater vaporizer, I recorded this with a chest mounted Gopro camera so it is a little wobbly at times. Also had a problem with some new plugs I made up and had to continue with some older worn plugs so when the device cooled down I belled the mouth of the device a little and the new mocap plugs now fit fine.
https://youtu.be/mjEi9mkwiAM


----------



## cervus

johno said:


> I just treated some of my home hives with a band heater vaporizer, I recorded this with a chest mounted Gopro camera so it is a little wobbly at times. Also had a problem with some new plugs I made up and had to continue with some older worn plugs so when the device cooled down I belled the mouth of the device a little and the new mocap plugs now fit fine.
> https://youtu.be/mjEi9mkwiAM


What was the problem with the new plugs? How did you flare the mouth of the device? Looks like you came kinda close to getting a whiff of vapor  a couple of times. Great video.


----------



## cervus

johno said:


> I just treated some of my home hives with a band heater vaporizer, I recorded this with a chest mounted Gopro camera so it is a little wobbly at times. Also had a problem with some new plugs I made up and had to continue with some older worn plugs so when the device cooled down I belled the mouth of the device a little and the new mocap plugs now fit fine.
> https://youtu.be/mjEi9mkwiAM


What was the problem with the new plugs? How did you flare the mouth of the device? Looks like you came kinda close to getting a whiff of vapor  a couple of times. Great video.


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## johno

Hi Cervus, The old plugs I used for a long time with a single band heater device that was belled at the mouth so they fitted quite nicely into the 2 heater device that was not belled. now the new plugs had sharp edges end were too close a fit so belling the 2 band heated device took care of that. I had an old bench mounted light that had a conical section on the top so after welding the copper is very soft and the 1' ID pipe fits onto the conical taper and with a block of wood on the back just tap with a hammer until you get what you want. Fortunately the wind was from behind me so the vapor was not really a problem, although when the plugs don't fit you get the vapor where you don't want it. I was doing some tests today just holding the back of my hand in the vapor stream trying to feel how hot the vapor is the result was I could hold my hand a few inches from the nozzle without any discomfort and the hairs on the back of my hand are covered in fine OA crystals. I will do it again this afternoon and post pics.
Johno


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## kaizen

Johno any chance you have a parts list for uncreative and uninitiated people like me? I think you changed some things from when you first started and others have listed their items. Not sure what the final was or if the controller was needed even though you have it in your great video. 
I'd like to use it this year and fiddling around with wrong parts will kill that plan


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## kaizen

Johno any chance you have a parts list for uncreative and uninitiated people like me? I think you changed some things from when you first started and others have listed their items. Not sure what the final was or if the controller was needed even though you have it in your great video. 
I'd like to use it this year and fiddling around with wrong parts will kill that plan


----------



## johno

Kaizen if you only have a few hives the simple single band heater device is the way to go. This requires a 110 volt 300watt 25mm x 25mm band heater from ebay, 1 x 1" copper end cap, 21/2" of 1" copper pipe, 5"of 1" x 1/8" aluminum bar, 2" of 3/16" OD copper pipe, 1 x 10by 32 pan head machine screw and about 5 nuts for that screw, 3 to 4 feet of an old appliance cord with a 3 pin 110v plug attached a little wood for the handle and a few screws to attach the handle, a ring connector for the ground wire, a 1/4" cable clamp for holding the cord and then some of those mocap caps that has a link on one of the posts. If you make this device and insulate it, it will heat up for 41/2 minutes thereafter you can sublimate a charge about once a minute.
Johno


----------



## johno

Ran some tests today on the latest vaporizer that I have just finished, this must be Mark ? I can't remember. It is made from an 11/2" copper coupling with a US made band heater that can run on either 110v or 240v and is temperature controlled. I have tried to make it simple and to enclose it in a normal deep plastic plug box. I was a little disappointed in the result of the tests as it was no better than my old 2 heater vaporizer however the large mocap plugs certainly made loading the charge very much easier. The next project is to make it a little smaller out of 2" of 11/2" copper pipe. The pics posted show the device vaporizing close to my arm and will show the crystals adhering to the hairs of my arm. That thing on the end of the devise is what I use to bell the 1" pipe.













Johno


----------



## kaizen

johno said:


> Kaizen if you only have a few hives the simple single band heater device is the way to go. This requires a 110 volt 300watt 25mm x 25mm band heater from ebay, 1 x 1" copper end cap, 21/2" of 1" copper pipe, 5"of 1" x 1/8" aluminum bar, 2" of 3/16" OD copper pipe, 1 x 10by 32 pan head machine screw and about 5 nuts for that screw, 3 to 4 feet of an old appliance cord with a 3 pin 110v plug attached a little wood for the handle and a few screws to attach the handle, a ring connector for the ground wire, a 1/4" cable clamp for holding the cord and then some of those mocap caps that has a link on one of the posts. If you make this device and insulate it, it will heat up for 41/2 minutes thereafter you can sublimate a charge about once a minute.
> Johno


Thanks johno. What are the limitations hive wise with this set up. Wouldn't it go and go until it ran out of power? Have you burnt out the band heater where it would be wise to have another on hand?


----------



## johno

Kaizen I have been using these things for quite some time now treating up to 50 colonies and numerous nuc's and have not had a band heater fail yet although if you left it on for extended periods of time unattended I suspect you could shorten its life. Having said that at around $3 each including shipping if I was you I would buy 2 as you might know Sods law states that any thing you have a spare for never fails.
Johno


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## NAC89

Here's a video of the 3/4" inch one I made. Not the worlds greatest video as I was filming with my phone. Vaporize time is 30-40 seconds on a two brood box dose of OA. 
https://youtu.be/h-XyTJyYPIw


----------



## NAC89

Duplicate


----------



## johno

NAC89, looks like it is working well. I could add a few tips to get the vaporizing done in about 20 seconds. First use 21/2" of 1" copper pipe, cut another piece of 1" pipe about 11/4" long cut through the length of it heat it up and flatten it out, then weld the flat piece onto the bottom of the 21/2" pipe. then when you weld the 3/16" pipe into the 21/2" pipe weld it where it will be inside the top half of the band heater. I found quite a difference in burn time between a 3/4" end cap and a 1" end cap which I put down to the greater vaporizing surface area of the bigger end cap. But all in all if you do not want to save a little time what you have is way ahead of the wand type of vaporizer anyhow. I have also come to the conclusion that it is better to vaporize from the top of the hive than from the bottom.
Johno


----------



## MidMichBees

Great build! Instead of trying to make the charging caps sealable, what if you put a butterfly or ball valve on top of the chamber? Load the OA, actuate the valve back and forth, and (hopefully) you now have dumped the OA and sealed the top of the chamber. Would crystalization on the valve prevent this from being feasible? Not sure if that would gum things up or just get scraped clean every time it was used.

Edit: If crystals didn't prove to be a mechanical issue, not sure if the valve would handle the heat well? The chamber could be made taller to allow some of the heat to dissipate, but this may be detrimental to getting to/staying at temp, which would defeat the purpose. Just some thoughts.


----------



## johno

MidMichBees, I have been trying to perfect this mousetrap for some time and have pondered methods of loading the charge by mechanical means such as a ball valve. The first problem is that the ball needs to be blocked at one end otherwise the OA falls straight through, second most of the valves have a nylon seal which would not stand the heat and third it would increase the mass required to be heated making the device inefficient. Continue to think of methods to improve the device as the more folks thinking about something are more likely to come up with a better solution.
Johno


----------



## MidMichBees

Maybe misunderstanding what you're saying, but regarding the OA falling through, if you started with the valve closed, loaded the OA, then opened and shut the valve, wouldn't that serve to drop the OA then seal the top?

Regarding the valve not withstanding the heat and decreasing the efficiency of the heating: yeah, that would be my fear.

I've been lurking and following this project for a while, so I agree, the more brains the better! Awesome work so far.

Side note/question, would you think a 12 volt motorcycle battery with an inverter would power this sufficiently for a handful of treatments?


----------



## johno

MidMichBees, If you can manage a handful hives with a wand and a motorcycle battery then a single band heater vaporizer will handle them as it draws less power than a wand. The whole story depends on the capacity of the battery so for 5 hives you could be drawing 10 amps for a little less than 10 minutes, lawn mower batteries seem to do the trick so at all depends on the size of the motorcycle battery. At my home I use a light 100Ft extension cord that I originally got for an electric lawn trimmer and use the inverter clipped onto my truck battery with a shorter cord in my out yards. With the valve story, when you open the valve to let the OA in as soon as some of the OA hits the bottom the rapid expansion of the gasses produced will probably blow the remainder of the OA out the top before you can close the valve, that is why I mentioned another configuration that is not available.
Johno


----------



## MidMichBees

Ah, didn't realize it would start to vaporize that quickly. Good point. Thanks for the advice on the battery.


----------



## johno

This is the Mark 1000? The final version of Johno"s Cheapo Vap, not to be confused with the basic Cheapest Vap. Guaranteed 30 second hive treatment time for 2 to 3 grams of Oxalic acid.







Johno


----------



## Cjj

Johno is that an 1 1/2 tube ?


----------



## johno

Cjj it is made from a 11/4" coupling as my local Ace does not have 11/2" copper pipe, the OD ends up at 1.475" and the band heater fits perfectly and takes just over 2 minutes to reach set temperature. I created a little flare on the opening by beating it against the smallest ball of a tow hitch. The Mopar plugs measuring around 1.3" at the narrow end fir perfectly and will take at least 4 grams of OA without any mods. The bottom was made from a piece of 1" copper pipe cut down the side then heated and straightened which was welded onto the bottom of the coupling by putting the flat bottom onto a brick then the coupling on top heating the area from the outside then running the copper weld from the inside, trimmed the outside with metal shears and smoothed the bottom edge on a disc sander and the rest is history.
Johno


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## NAC89

Looks good Johno! I may have to delve into making one like that over the winter.


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## rangerpeterj

johno Did you use the american made band heater I reference before in this thead or two china band heaters ? How much QA are you using per load. I used my unpid control unit I made by your thread and it worked very good for me.I don't have the need for speed I only have 7 hives mine only had one band heater and a 1/4 inch outlet pipe,but it is insulated.It would take 4 to 5 min heat up time then 45 sec to sublime . I thank you for this thread . I was thinking of putting that tempco band heater on my pid controlled unit for faster heat up and treat ,but these already work good Peter


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## Cjj

Johno this is mine made out of the 1 1/2 tailpiece I was telling you about 2 1/2 min to heat up 15 sec to vaporize and 15 sec to get back up to temperature $85 to build


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## johno

Rangerpeterj, This particular one has an American made 120-240 volt 250 watt band heater, they are available at just over $10 apiece in quantities of 5 or more if you have a tax certificate, retail plus shipping ended up to about $40 but for this one I wanted the option of 240 volts. I have also purchased a 11/2" ID x 275 watts band heater from ebay for about $8 shipping included. I am just using an on off control system at the moment as I think pulse width control is a little more complicated and would also require some solid state switching device and that would need more space. I would guess most of my vaporization is with about 3 grams of OA as most of my colonies are in 4 mediums at this time and is sublimed in less than 30 seconds. The next mod I am thinking of is to replace the 3/16 copper pipe with some steel brake tubing asa the copper is soft and tends to bend when the device is left hanging.
johno


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## johno

cjj, that looks good I like the insulation what is it and where do you get it. I thought the price was a little high but I forget the 5 Mopar plugs and shipping still a great deal for the price.
Johno


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## johno

cjj, that looks good I like the insulation what is it and where do you get it. I thought the price was a little high but I forget the 5 Mopar plugs and shipping still a great deal for the price.
Johno


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## Cjj

Johno it is wood stove door gasket I had laying around works great recovery time is 15 sec


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## kaizen

johno why make the bottom out of cutting a pipe? Why not just a copper endcap?


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## johno

Kaizen, I had to start somewhere and began with a copper endcap. The endcap gave me the bottom surface area but being larger than the 1" pipe forced the band heater farther away from the bottom and found the closer to the bottom the more efficient the heater. I then went to the 3/4" end cap inside the 1" pipe to get the heater close to the bottom and found this slowed sublimation due to the smaller surface area so the next best option was to have a flat bottom welded to the bottom of the 1" or 11/4" coupling so as to have the best surface area with the band heater close to the bottom. The other advantage to this setup is that the overall length of the copper pipe can now be shorter allowing pressure to build faster and the system becomes more efficient as there is less copper to heat. The other thing of note is that it takes 5 seconds to vaporize 2.5mls of water and 20 seconds to vaporize2.5mls of OA so if it takes 900 calories of heat for water it takes around 3600 calories to sublimate OA and this is why the OA is not broken down.
Johno


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## kaizen

Thanks. Still waiting for my band heaters on the slow boat from where ever so hard to visualize it all. I did get brazing rods. Have the oxy/acetelyene set up already but never brazed. Should be fun to add another skill to the arsenal.


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## NAC89

kaizen said:


> Thanks. Still waiting for my band heaters on the slow boat from where ever so hard to visualize it all. I did get brazing rods. Have the oxy/acetelyene set up already but never brazed. Should be fun to add another skill to the arsenal.


I was the same way, never brazed before, first weld was a little ugly but after that I kind of got the hang of it. A lot like soldering for plumbing. If you ordered the band heaters from eBay from the seller in China mine took 12 Day’s to get to me.


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## GregH

Johno: Where did you get you silicone plugs at.


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## aiannar974

Would this work for a cap? Take a 1" pipe and cut it to fit in the bottom part of the unit and weld it in. Wrap teflon tape around the pipe extension. Push a cap on top of this that was filled with acid. It seems at least the tape below should hold up.


Blue Monster™ PTFE Thread Seal Tape
Temperature Range: -450°F to +500°F (-268°C to +260°C) PTFE is completely stable up to +500o F or +260°C. Decomposition is slow up to 750°F or 400°C. Although decomposition will occur on contact with naked flames.


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## Saltybee

johno,

What are your thoughts on increasing the heat sink by filling the cap with a plug or pennie if what you are really doing is increasing the mass. Maybe just extra brazing rod inside.


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## johno

I have thought of this angle and it has its pros and cons, if we start with the cons first unless it is a good fit on the inside it will make cleaning the device difficult second it will complicate the construction and third it will increase the heat up time. The advantages are that there will be more heat available and sublimation time could be decreased but if we have too much stored energy we could overheat the OA past breakdown temperature. The commercially available unit has a fair sized aluminum bottom and it does the job OK but I think the temperature fall will not be as rapid as the type that we make partly because of the thickness of the aluminum bottom where the temperature will drop from the inside face first and take a little more time to reach the thermocouple on the bottom edge. Saltybee which one are you referring to the simple single band heater or the temp controlled device with more power as the 250 watt device seems to work as quick as you can move and load the device.
Johno


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## johno

GregH I get them shipped in by a company called Mocap Google them and look for those caps in their product list. There are a range of them and you have to go on the size of the smallest end. Unfortunately the ones that fit the 1" pipe need to be ground out to accept 2 grams of OA. The device I made with a 11/4" coupling takes a larger cap that works great as it is.
Johno


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## GregH

Thanks Johno


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## Saltybee

Thanks johno,
Picturing a 300 watt with the button controller under with two bolts rather than the one through bolt. Adding ears would allow the button to go under but change the heat loss as well. Still pondering.


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## johno

Saltybee, the 300W band heaters sold on Amazon and ebay are really only about 100W so a single heater is OK without temp control if you are dealing with a few hives as it is a little slow maybe close to a minute per treatment and it also needs about 41/2 minutes to preheat. Using 2 heaters of this type should be temp controlled and will cut the preheat time to 21/2 minutes with treatment time around 30secs per hive. However ebay had a 1.5" x 1.5" x 275W heater for about $8 that fits nicely onto the 11/4" copper coupling which does really well, little more than 2 minutes to reach 250C and quick sublimation at around 20 secs and the Mopar plugs to fit require no mods.
Johno


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## Saltybee

Thanks johno, You are indeed a gentleman and a scholar.

I had looked for a double depth heater in a 110 v and only found a sold out listing, so risked my $10 on three smaller ones.


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## johno

Thanks Saltybee, I dunno about the scholar maybe a little Sarf Efrican might call me a skollie! the gentleman might also be a little stretch. However 2 of those heaters on a piece of 1" copper pipe does a great job the closer the heaters are to the bottom the better. I think you are going to use a mechanical thermostat attached to the bottom, I would be interested as to what temp range you are shooting for. I also think you could add more metal underneath the bottom to give you more heat storage, please let us know how it goes. I have been asked to help my club members to make some up for their use so I am working on the single heater device and trying to make it safer and simpler, will post some pics soon.
Johno


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## Saltybee

I went with the lower link on post #102, should have just bought both to have some flexibility on the thermal bounce or lag time.


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## MidMichBees

Johno, any chance you could post a close-up pic of how you attached the thermocouple? I'm having trouble visualizing it based on your description.


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## johno

MidMichBees, I have taken some pics and will get my wife to post them this afternoon. Once I get them into my computer I can never seem to find them.
Johno


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## johno

MidMichBees, Here are the pics of the thermocouple and how it is attached. Also some pics of the Cheap Vap and some of the new Cheapest Vap which including 2 mocap plugs would cost about $20 to make.

























With the new cheapest vap the 1" copper pipe is only 13/4" long so the 3/16" outlet must be placed at least 1" above the bottom or you get molten OA coming out with the vapor it may be better to increase the length to 2" and lift the outlet to maybe 11/4" off the bottom. As it is it vaporized the first shot in 20 seconds.
Johno


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## MidMichBees

Johno, is your thermocouple a little threaded stub? Assuming it is, is it just jammed under the washer? Really appreciate you posting the pictures.


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## Cjj

Looking good John


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## johno

MidMichBees, you can see the thermocouple in the first pic. It is only about 3/32" OD and is just insulating materiel with the 2 twisted thermocouple wires sticking out of the front, so the end 1/2" gets bolted down under the washer. I don't think you can do that with thermocouples that are encapsulated in stainless steel. These types of thermocouples are usually used with multi meters that can measure temperature and are not the commercial type.
Johno


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## MidMichBees

Ah, I didn't even realize that's what I was looking at in that picture. I'll have to look for that type of thermocouple. Thanks again.


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## johno

For you guys looking for a 11/2 x 11/2 250 watt band heater as they are not easy to find on ebay if you were to go to Complete plastic systems they have them available at $10.95 each but require you to buy at least 5 and provide a tax number. As I am now retired and no longer have a tax number I had to purchase the same heater from a retailer in Ohio at a cost of $31.50 plus shipping. these units are 120V/240V and I needed the 240V for a European country. The type K multimeter thermocouples are available in packs of 10 for about $15 per pack and the Mypin TA4-RNR is available at either Amazon or ebay at about $23. So maybe some enterprising fellow can purchase this stuff and sell the article to those of you who cannot put it together yourselves.
Johno


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## RonR

Well, If I did it right, here is my version. I stole ideas freely from others in the thread. It's uses a 3/4 cap and coupling with a Chinese 110v. 300w heater (based on the measured resistance, it's more like 200). I used a 1/4 stainless tube for the "spout." The caps are 1" pex plugs with a high temp. silicone caulk seal. Tried it today, and it got to 400F in about 2 minutes, and it took a bit over 30 seconds to vaporize 1/2 teaspoon of OA. I do plan on insulating it, but I haven't yet found the material.


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## johno

I have checked those band heaters right from the start, mine all measured close to 150 ohms which would draw 0.8 amps at 120 V. So P=I x E which ends up at 96 watts give or take a few. I also checked the ac amp draw and it was in that region and the dc draw of the inverter was in the 10 amp area most wands are in the 13 to 15 amps dc. I have also found that a 3/16 OD tube gives the best vapor distribution also beware of the length of the outlet tubing too long and it could plug with OA. I have made some with a 3/4" end cap and with 2 band heaters and found it would not speed up sublimation time due to the smaller surface area of the bottom of the 3/4" end cap and when I went to 1" pipe with a flat piece of copper welded to the bottom sublimation time dropped by a third. I used some of this pink construction insulation and by cutting a strip about the width of the device you can peel an inch thick layer of the glass wool off make a hole for the outlet and wrap it around stay down about a 1/2" below the top rim I then wrapped some 1" fiberglass tape around that and stuck it down with a piece of duct tape. If yo have some 1/8" hardware cloth a strip around the insulation will finish it off. Let us know how you get along with the pex caps as sealing the top is really important to get a good treatment. How did you weld the stainless to the copper?
Johno


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## johno

I have checked those band heaters right from the start, mine all measured close to 150 ohms which would draw 0.8 amps at 120 V. So P=I x E which ends up at 96 watts give or take a few. I also checked the ac amp draw and it was in that region and the dc draw of the inverter was in the 10 amp area most wands are in the 13 to 15 amps dc. I have also found that a 3/16 OD tube gives the best vapor distribution also beware of the length of the outlet tubing too long and it could plug with OA. I have made some with a 3/4" end cap and with 2 band heaters and found it would not speed up sublimation time due to the smaller surface area of the bottom of the 3/4" end cap and when I went to 1" pipe with a flat piece of copper welded to the bottom sublimation time dropped by a third. I used some of this pink construction insulation and by cutting a strip about the width of the device you can peel an inch thick layer of the glass wool off make a hole for the outlet and wrap it around stay down about a 1/2" below the top rim I then wrapped some 1" fiberglass tape around that and stuck it down with a piece of duct tape. If yo have some 1/8" hardware cloth a strip around the insulation will finish it off. Let us know how you get along with the pex caps as sealing the top is really important to get a good treatment. How did you weld the stainless to the copper?
Johno


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## cervus

Johno. I still like the original best, the one from the first post in this thread. It's simple, efficient, and inexpensive...just my cup of tea. I had a question on the band heater location. You stated earlier that you would like the heater closer to the bottom. How much difference in sublimation time did you notice doing that mod? The band heaters you recommended early on (ebay) are somewhat malleable and could be made to fit snugly around the cap, rather than the pipe, if used with a longer tightening screw. If the difference is negligible, I'm leaning to keep it on the pipe, just above the cap. Thanks for the write-up and pics.


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## johno

Cervus the original was made from a 21/2" piece of pipe welded into a 1" end cap. Using the Chinese band heater which is for 25mm OD pipe It went above the end cap as the end cap OD is around 31mm and is a stretch to get the band heater around it, the1" pipe OD is 28mm so the original clamping screw does not work and I think I used #8 screws for that. Trying to get the sublimation time down I welded a 3/4" coupling inside of the 1" pipe and then put the band heater closer to the bottom and even with 2 heaters the sublimation time was not improved so eventually with the single heater I went to 1" pipe with flat copper welded to the bottom and the pipe only needed to be 13/4" long and the heater was located close to the bottom this improved the heat up time from 41/2 to 3 minutes and sublimation time of about 20 seconds. The latest changes I made were to find a way to enclose all the electrical connections and to provide for the cord to go directly into the connection box with simply available materials as the members of our bee club want me to help them make them. I will do some tests on the new cheapest one as I believe the smaller size of the pipe will speed up treatment time.
Johno


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## cervus

To be honest, I can live with 30 seconds vs. 20 seconds. Am I reading correctly that the original 2 1/2" pipe with cap with the single band heater just above the cap was sublimating 2 grams of OA in about 30 seconds? I know you said it took longer to heat up initially, but I can live with that also. I already have mine brazed but my buddy has my OA and vaporizer wand or I would test it myself. Thanks again.


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## RonR

Johno, Based on other posts, I was expecting about 150 ohms, but mine measured 65. The $3.00 supplier on ebay won't ship to Alaska, so I bought from another seller. That may be the difference. It went to well over 500F when I was autotuning the PID, and when I tested it at 36F, it took barely 2 min to reach 400. I know the stainless may not be the best choice, but it's what I had on hand - it doesn't transfer heat like copper. At 36F, I did get some crystallization at the end. I started with it a bit long, thinking I could trim it if needed. With only a couple hives, it is plenty fast as is. I have some fiberglass rope stove gasket that I was going to use for insulation, I just have to find it. My first test on the bees should be Wednesday. I really didn't like sticking that 400 degree piece of hot metal into the hives. 
Ron


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## johno

Cervus if I remember correctly the simple one I made , single band heater 1" cap ,21/2" pipe and a 3/16" outlet when pre heated for 41/2 minutes would sublimate 2 grams of OA in around 30 seconds but needed about 30 to 45 seconds to build up enough heat to do another 30 second treatment. So I had to keep a timer handy to control this. This led to the temperature controlled 2 band heater device so as to get at least a 30 second sublimation with the temperature controller replacing the timer as you could see that when the temperature rose above 400F the sublimation was complete and by the time you were ready to dose the next hive the temp was around 500F so was ready to go. RonR with that band heater it is good that you have the controller, the outlet pipe does not have to intrude too far into your hive and it would be rare to have casualties unlike with wand types.
Johno


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## kaizen

finally got my band heaters. when fully opened I can stretch them to fit a one inch pipe. the heater doesn't have to encompass the whole circumference does it? obviously more desirable but i'd only be able to use 3/4 if I did that. 
how are you testing the heat with no controller? laser temp finder? What is the desired heat temp to be at? 400?


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## cervus

johno said:


> Cervus if I remember correctly the simple one I made , single band heater 1" cap ,21/2" pipe and a 3/16" outlet when pre heated for 41/2 minutes would sublimate 2 grams of OA in around 30 seconds but needed about 30 to 45 seconds to build up enough heat to do another 30 second treatment.


Thanks. 30-45 seconds re-warming should be just about the time needed to recharge and move to next hive. That's much better than my current 3 1/2 minutes with the wand. I'll probably make another unit once you get the bugs worked out and build a final prototype.


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## johno

Kaizen the band heater is fine on 1" pipe you just have to use a smaller screw for clamping. If you are using a 1" end cap the 3/16" outlet pipe will go in the gap above the heaters clamping screw. If you are using 2" of 1" pipe only the outlet pipe is fitted about 11/4" above the bottom and try to get the top of the band heater up to it. I found with a single Chinese band heater the original I made heated up to around 500F after a period of 41/2 minutes I checked the temperatures in the beginning by clamping a thermocouple to the device and just monitoring the temperature, If you have a laser temp instrument it should tell you the time taken to reach 500F. The temperature drops down to the lower 300F when the OA hits the bottom and when sublimation is completed starts to climb and will nor reach near 500F for another 30 seconds that is with the old type using a pipe and cap. the newer one made with 1" pipe only was reaching operating temp after 3 minutes and I have not yet tested to see how long it will take to get back up to temp. You can determine the times just by trial and error if your time is too soon your sublimation time increases so you will need a timer to figure this out.
Johno


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## Cjj

John o I did one of my Bee yards tonight with my band heater 52 hives in 50 min, from start to finish you can,t beat that for $85 , you are right drilling the hole between the two deeps gets really good vapor coverage in both boxes 

Thanks Chet


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## Cjj

John o I did one of my Bee yards tonight with my band heater 52 hives in 50 min, from start to finish you can,t beat that for $85 , you are right drilling the hole between the two deeps gets really good vapor coverage in both boxes 

Thanks Chet


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## johno

That's great Chet, it will be hard to do better than that and still provide exact dosage per hive. I find it so easy working from behind the hives that I longer wear a veil while doing it.
Johno


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## Cjj

Working from behind the hive is the way to go , I did lay a rag across the mouse guards on10 hives's at a time treated those and the went and did 10 more and then went back and removed the rags from the first 10 , it worked out really well these band heater are the way to go if you have a good amount of hives

Thanks Chet


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## johno

Here are the latest mods to my Cheapvap, I 3D printed a cover for the deep electrical box to take the Mypin temp controller and also printed a handle to fit to the bottom of the box. I also used a piece of aluminum angle to mount the hot parts insulated by 3/4" of hard wood. The only other mod I might try in the future is to fit a cable clamping setup on the bottom of the handle.













Johno


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## laketrout

johno are you still treating from the top of the hive with the band heaters and finding it gets through the hive as good as treating from the bottom .


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## johno

Laketrout, at the moment most of my hives are 3 or 4 mediums so I make a 1/4' hole at the top of the second box in the center of the back in between the 2 center frames and treat from there. I have found that most of the air movement is at the bottom of the hive around the gaps of where the sticky board goes in and if you treat from the bottom the vapor is slow to get good coverage up high with the air movement going down. I watched the vapor in my observation hive when treated from the middle, the vapor goes down very quickly but up very slowly obviously the entrance is in the bottom of the observation hive.
johno


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## BigGun

So which is the best design for someone with larger number of hives?


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## johno

BigGun, If you have a lot of hives I would recommend the vaporizer made from a 11/4" copper coupling and using a 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" 250- 300 watt band heater you might find on ebay. You need to temperature control this with a Mypin TA4-RNR temp controller from Amazon. You will also need a type K thermocouple of the type used on multi meters. The rest of the information on how to put it all together is all in the thread.
Johno


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## BigGun

johno said:


> BigGun, If you have a lot of hives I would recommend the vaporizer made from a 11/4" copper coupling and using a 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" 250- 300 watt band heater you might find on ebay. You need to temperature control this with a Mypin TA4-RNR temp controller from Amazon. You will also need a type K thermocouple of the type used on multi meters. The rest of the information on how to put it all together is all in the thread.
> Johno


So this is one that has to be brazed to a piece of flat copper?


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## BigGun

duplicate removed


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## johno

That is correct, easy if you can find a flat piece of copper or brass otherwise I cut a piece of 1" copper pipe about 11/2" long and then cut it length wise heat up drop into water then straighten it out. Once it is flat put you coupling on top put this onto a dry brick and with an oxy acetylene torch heat up inside and outside and once well heated work the torch on the lower outside edge and use a copper silver alloy rod and run a bead around the inside of the coupling. With that done allow to cool for a minute then dump into cold water. The edges can be clipped off with metal snips and then ground smooth. the 3/16" hole should be drilled about 11/4" from the bottom as if you put the outlet pipe too low you tend to blow out molten OA.
Johno


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## kaizen

johno said:


> That is correct, easy if you can find a flat piece of copper or brass otherwise I cut a piece of 1" copper pipe about 11/2" long and then cut it length wise heat up drop into water then straighten it out. Once it is flat put you coupling on top put this onto a dry brick and with an oxy acetylene torch heat up inside and outside and once well heated work the torch on the lower outside edge and use a copper silver alloy rod and run a bead around the inside of the coupling. With that done allow to cool for a minute then dump into cold water. The edges can be clipped off with metal snips and then ground smooth. the 3/16" hole should be drilled about 11/4" from the bottom as if you put the outlet pipe too low you tend to blow out molten OA.
> Johno


I'm still trying to get mine together. found a less labor intensive and easier for brazing method. just used an endcap that I put on the pipe and used my tubing cutter as close to the end as I could. ended up leaving a really nice fitting cap. suppose a hacksaw could do it fast enough. just make sure its on a piece of pipe so its not crushed. I had to put the edge of a pipe wrench on the endcap to keep it from spinning but so solder could also hold it in place.


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## johno

Kaizen If that works for you that's great, I tried to make some of the 1" ones with plumbers solder but found the melting point too low and it was starting to melt at about 450F. I tried that out to see if folks could make them without the use of oxy acetylene. However some guys have managed to do the welds with Mapp gas.
Johno


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## Saltybee

I have been assuming type L is what everyone has been using?


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## RonR

What are people using for the P, I, and and D settings on the Mypin TA4? I used autotune, and it worked well. Then I added insulation and tried autotune again because I was overshooting. I tried several times, and I end up with big temperature swings. If someone could tell me what their settings are for P, I, and D are, I would appreciate it. Thanks.
Ron


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## johno

RonR I did not alter any of the factory settings as an on off control I did not feel it was necessary. I ended up with my set point at 450F and as soon as the OA hit the bottom the temp drops down to the 340 F and when it climbs above 400 odd the job is done and time to move on. Saltybee as long as type L will work in the 450F range it will be OK, it all depends on what you can find and that the Mypin controller can take it.
Johno


----------



## Swampsquash

Johno would something like this work? https://www.ebay.com/p/Tempco-NHL00...eg-F-1-1-2-In-Dia/1601918796?iid=332423780440 I know it's 2 inch width but I can't seem to find one with 1.5 inch width.


----------



## kaizen

johno said:


> Kaizen If that works for you that's great, I tried to make some of the 1" ones with plumbers solder but found the melting point too low and it was starting to melt at about 450F. I tried that out to see if folks could make them without the use of oxy acetylene. However some guys have managed to do the welds with Mapp gas.
> Johno


to clarify......I was saying use solder only to hold the cap on the pipe until its cut off. I agree solder is not durable enough. I used oxy acetylene to braze it together.


----------



## johno

Swampsquash, that will work but look at ebay under 1.5"x1.5" x 300 watt bi IMS for about $15
Johno


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## johno

Swampsquash on second thoughts the heater on your thread does not mention its power rating and you do not want to exceed 300 watts or you will overload the temp controller contacts. If you cannot find a 1.5"x1.5" you can try to contact IMS at 440 543 1615 and see what they can do for you as I have purchased one from them before. 
Johno


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## Swampsquash

SO then something like this? https://www.imscompany.com/ProductNavigation/ItemDetail?ItemNumber=134619

I found this https://www.ebay.com/itm/IMS-Fast-H...954574?hash=item44082d2d4e:g:31AAAOSw4ntZd1zX but I want 2 and they only have 1 left


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## johno

Those direct from IMS look good to me, I would prefer 250watts though. Have you tried IMS for 1.5"x1.5" x 250Watts 120V.
Johno


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## Swampsquash

johno said:


> Those direct from IMS look good to me, I would prefer 250watts though. Have you tried IMS for 1.5"x1.5" x 250Watts 120V.
> Johno


so then this https://www.imscompany.com/ProductNavigation/ItemDetail?ItemNumber=101636

I thought higher wattage was preferred my bad


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## BigGun

What size rubber plug is used with the 1 1/4 couplers?


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## johno

Swampsquash, that last one of 250 watts is the one. Big Gun, Mocap MHSP 1.306/1.622 fit the 11/4" coupling perfectly and can take more OA than you need.
Johno


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## BigGun

Who's buying up all the 1.5 inch band heaters? All I can find are the expensive ones.


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## rwmccor

Biggun,
these ones here ?? 1.5 =38 mm this is close 35mm might work
https://www.ebay.com/itm/35mmx25mm-...956643&hash=item4b0272f840:g:DikAAOSwwf5Z2il2

doesn't list the watts though


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## johno

You need to be careful with some of these Chinese band heaters, the one mentioned above does not give a power rating. the 25mmx25mmones are sold at a 300watt rating and they are no more than 100watts. A 250 watt heater should measure around 50 ohms when you check it with a multi meter.
Johno


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## rwmccor

Johno,
Copied your easy one,Just have to get a cap that seals
better than the one I made.guess i will order a monocap.
Thanks for all your hard work and instructions on building these things

https://photos.app.goo.gl/b5RdM58IixEumiKt1
https://photos.app.goo.gl/t2jnxwKhmclRH4MP2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Dd3oQeZ2xaAZkoYn1


----------



## johno

Rwmccor, Looking good. The important thing about the Cheapest Vap is to allow 41/2 minutes to preheat and then to allow about a minute after each treatment for the device to get back up to temperature. One of the earlier posts gives a link to Mocap and to the size required to fit into 1" pipe although I opened up the top of my 1" vaporizers by hammering it down onto a taper which allowed the caps to enter and fit nicely into the device. I have a couple of thermal switches that will open at about 450F and am looking at mounting one of these at the bottom of the copper pipe and then by means of LED's get an indication when the device has reached operating temperature so that there will be no need to use a timer.
Johno


----------



## kaizen

Thought i'd share some trials and fails. I got these and I would NOT recommend them.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01H01FDR6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I had to stretch them out to fit on a 1inch pipe and use a skinny long bolt. Maybe the lack of surface area is not my problem but I was only getting it up to about 230 or so bare. with the cap maybe 300. 
I got mocap caps item #MSO.827/1.063 from their website. Fit nice in the 1inch pipe.
I wanted to try something different for insulation. I at first tried refractory cement. Used a soda can and encased it. Found out even though its used on wood stoves it conducts heat. fail.
So I chiseled that off causing some damage of course. Next tried what I've seen people use on home made metal forges to keep heat in; cement and perlite. I mixed it about 70 percent perlite and 30 percent quick set cement. just gobbed it on as i'm not concerned with looks. with the cap on I do get above 400 degrees now but the cement does also get up to 200 degrees so losing some heat from where I want it to be. Overall not a good solution to the insulating need.


----------



## johno

Kaizen those band heaters are the heaters that I started with, also had to stretch them and use a smaller clamping screw but had no problems reaching 450F after 41/2 minutes. I see in our local Ace Hardware that stove gasket is available in many sizes and this rope like stuff of about 3/8' would be ideal to wind around the heater.
Johno


----------



## mgolden

Purchased two of the 30mm x 25mm to fit 3/4 inch piping, and supposed to be 300W from Amazon. 

Everything fit together well but the final product doesn't work very well. Significant OA crystal build up on end of the 3/16 pipe. ??3/16 exhaust pipe does not get hot enough to prevent crystallization at the end. 3/16 pipe is 1 1/4 inch long, and any shorter and won't reach through hive body.

The heater is 180 ohms and if my math is right, this is about 80 watts, a long ways from 300W.


----------



## johno

Mgolden, The heaters that I have measure about 160 Ohms and end up at about 90 watts, which is a long way from 300. However I have a unit running 2 heaters and is temperature controlled. But is made form 1" copper pipe, as I found that the first one I made with a bottom out of a 3/4" end cap never worked well which I put down to the reduced surface area of the bottom. When I went to a full 1" bottom there was a dramatic improvement. The problems that I have found with the 3/16" outlets are if the outlet is placed too close to the bottom in sublimated OA can be blown into the tube causing problems, the other is that the outlet must be within the upper circle of the band heater and another problem is if the device is not given enough time to regain its lost heat and loaded again causing further temperature loss and slower sublimation. Are you running a temperature controller on your 2 band heater device.
Johno


----------



## Fishman43

johno said:


> I have a couple of thermal switches that will open at about 450F and am looking at mounting one of these at the bottom of the copper pipe and then by means of LED's get an indication when the device has reached operating temperature so that there will be no need to use a timer.
> Johno


Interested in learning more about these in use.


----------



## mgolden

johno said:


> Mgolden, The heaters that I have measure about 160 Ohms and end up at about 90 watts, which is a long way from 300. However I have a unit running 2 heaters and is temperature controlled. But is made form 1" copper pipe, as I found that the first one I made with a bottom out of a 3/4" end cap never worked well which I put down to the reduced surface area of the bottom. When I went to a full 1" bottom there was a dramatic improvement. The problems that I have found with the 3/16" outlets are if the outlet is placed too close to the bottom in sublimated OA can be blown into the tube causing problems, the other is that the outlet must be within the upper circle of the band heater and another problem is if the device is not given enough time to regain its lost heat and loaded again causing further temperature loss and slower sublimation. Are you running a temperature controller on your 2 band heater device.
> Johno


Just running one band heater. Outlet pipe is about 5/8 from bottom, above band tightening bolt, top of pipe is flush with top of band heater.

Takes about 5 min to vaporize 2.5 grams. My idea was to have two vaporizers and leap frog down row of hives. Maybe 3 mins per hive and beats 13 min for 12V varrrox.

Get a complete burn. Crystalizing at outlet of 3/16 happens mostly in last minute at end of the burn. Did wrap a layer of tin foil over it this AM for a test burn, but didn't seem to help much.

Going to try a 6 min burn time.


----------



## johno

Mgolden I have sent you a PM. It looks as if you have the band heater around a 3/4" cap, and that is not long enough as the outlet needs to be around 11/4" above the bottom. The device also needs to be preheated and is used while hot.
Johno


----------



## johno

Once again I will advise any one making a Cheapest Vap, use nothing smaller than 1" copper pipe do not put the outlet pipe any less than 11/4" from the bottom. When the device has been pre heated for 41/2 minutes and the OA hits the bottom the water of crystallization and sublimation cause a vigorous boiling reaction and pressure if the top is properly sealed and if this reaction is close to the outlet pipe some of the OA can be blown into the outlet which will lower the outlets temperature even more and cause further crystallization. If the pipe is 3/4" the levels of OA will be higher and make this worse.
Johno


----------



## rwmccor

here is one I made and is ready to get assembled.Looks like mgoldens exhaust pipe is bigger diameter is larger than 3/16 ?? Tested mine out with oxalic acid yesterday,if you following the designers instructions for build and operation it works as it should.Like Johno said 4 1/2 warm up and poof acid is gone in 30 secs or less,I only have 5 hives and this is going to save a lot of bees lives  have a wand and always end up cooking some girls https://photos.app.goo.gl/g9AzmIvPEDebbpo52
https://photos.app.goo.gl/CUivFoUgezCQmEwb2


----------



## rwmccor

Kaizen,wonder if the wrap would work ??

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WHITE-EXHA...ash=item1c59e021d6:g:gnwAAOSw7NNT9kjt&vxp=mtr


----------



## kaizen

rwmccor said:


> Kaizen,wonder if the wrap would work ??
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/WHITE-EXHA...ash=item1c59e021d6:g:gnwAAOSw7NNT9kjt&vxp=mtr


maybe if it was smaller. when you cut that stuff it becomes a mess. I was going for a heat resistant coating not only to keep the heat in but also to hold onto instead of mounting it on a board. i'm thinking my laser temp measure thingy isn't giving me true results. I had it going for 4 minutes and it only showed 190 or so but when I put water into it the water boiled away violently which means its more then that temp. theres got to be something out there that insulates so it will flow everywhere like under the clamp bolt. going to run some tests tomorrow on mine. I just got to get using it and I can mess with the issues over winter


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## rwmccor

This stuff is used in welding to keep area's not needing to be repaired cool.Trouble is it might suck the heat from the unit ??

http://www.eastwood.com/ew-anti-heat-compound-1-qt.html


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## kaizen

rwmccor said:


> This stuff is used in welding to keep area's not needing to be repaired cool.Trouble is it might suck the heat from the unit ??
> 
> http://www.eastwood.com/ew-anti-heat-compound-1-qt.html


cool stuff but that absorbs heat so dont think would help


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## johno

My local Ace hardware has some rolls of stove door gasket materiel different diameters sold per foot. the 3/8" diameter one I am sure would work. This stuff is like soft rope and I am sure one could wind it on and tie down the end.
Johno


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## Saltybee

Ace online; http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=31151146


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## johno

My Ace Hardware has that stuff on cardboard rolls and can be purchased by the foot and is reasonably priced, I will take a look at buying some on Monday.
Johno


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## KenNashua

Any thoughts to a PDF with various design options so it could be added to the Build It Yourself archives?

Also, do you have a link to the 3d printed cover design for the Mypin?

If one uses the MSHP1.036/1.246 caps do you need to use a 1" pipe with a 1 1/14" coupler?


----------



## NorthMaine

(Note, I haven't made one yet, awaiting shipping of the band heater from China)

Was thinking of using the stove gasket material 'rope' and using it as a sleeve (sliding it through the center of the rope) around the small tube going into the hive to keep it warmer along with insulating the entire pan. Being in Maine, I figure things will cool down real fast in our cold weather and copper transfers heat quite well. Thought that the rope could push back when it was pushed into the hive, but couldn't think of a way to have it re-extend when you pull it out of the hive, although as I write this I was thinking maybe I could wrap a weak spring around the outside of the rope to push it back out. 

Any comments on practical lengths of the small tube? A compromise between short enough to keep warm, long enough to get reasonably inside the hive while keeping the heat away from the wood?


----------



## johno

NorthMaine, If you insulate the body of the device and make sure that the outlet pipe is in the edge of the band heater you will not have a problem. Trying to insulate the outlet pipe will increase the size to such an extent that you will not be able to bore a hole in the top of a box above the frame rest. At the moment I do that with a 1/4" bit pointing upwards about 30 degrees right between the two center frames. The outlet pipe make no longer than 2" you could perhaps get away with 11/2" but start long and you can always make it shorter. When using the device try and get it sheltered from wind while you pre heat. The outlet pipe must be placed at least 11/4" above the bottom of the 1" copper pipes bottom.
Johno


----------



## BigGun

Anything new on the band vaporizer front?


----------



## johno

I have been playing with the cheapest single heater vaporizer by fitting a temp switch that switches off at 250C but have not got anywhere with it yet as it is now much colder and the whole thing needs to be insulated. The Idea is that an LED will tell you when you reach operating temp and you can treat and when the Led goes off again you are ready to treat again. I will be off to New Zealand for 3 weeks in a few days time so will not be able to continue with that for a while. However those tests have shown how important insulating the device is as it makes such a difference to its efficiency. Other wise I have been using the temperature controlled 250 watt device as shown in some earlier pics and have been really happy with its performance treating a yard with 8 hives in 10 minutes.
Johno


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## sr4440

johno

have you tried some gasket maker IE High-Temp RTV Silicone to insulate the heater? that stuff is good to 650 degrees and easy to form. Granted, it may be a little ugly when your done. 

Joe


----------



## johno

sr4440, when I first started I used the RTV gasket maker when trying to make the loading plugs seal but eventually gave up on that and went to the Mocap plugs. The silicone was not all that easy to work with and I do not think it would be a good heat insulator. I normally use some of the fiber glass insulation from wall and ceiling construction and then wind glass tape or stove gasket rope around to finish but have not got around to doing that with the last one I was building, I will continue with that when I get back from New Zealand.
Johno


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## laketrout

Getting ready to order some band heaters would like to go with the ims # 101636 has anyone found any deals on them , they are around 17.00 from the company


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## laketrout

Is the correct mypin controller that johno is referring too https://www.amazon.com/TA4-SNR-Ther...2004478&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=mypin+ta4&psc=1


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## sr4440

laketrout said:


> Is the correct mypin controller that johno is referring too https://www.amazon.com/TA4-SNR-Ther...2004478&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=mypin+ta4&psc=1


Nope! that's close, but it's a Ta4-RNR https://www.amazon.com/IMAGE-Displa...UTF8&qid=1512007211&sr=1-3&keywords=mypin+ta4

Joe


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## laketrout

Thanks Joe are you in the process of building one , do you have a link for the right k style thermalcouple


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## sr4440

I have used one for a year, it's a 1" dia and it works well, but i don't like how small the cap is, so i am now going to build a 1 1/2. I use a copper reducer in the bottom to hold the heat a little better. I Use some cheap Chinese K thermocouples from ebay, i just weld them in the bottom. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-K-Ty...407907&hash=item2a89a3a2ef:g:tZoAAOSwVfxZv0aQ

Joe


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## laketrout

Thanks again , I am trying to source all the parts for the 1 1/2 , how did the reducer work out , are you adding a reducer to the 1 1/4 coupling


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## sr4440

its called a "Copper Bushing (FTGxC)" just a big piece of copper to hold the heat. On the 1" it worked well.

Joe


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## laketrout

Looking for a couple 1 1/2 '' X 1 1/2'' band heaters IMS wants to much for shipping anybody have any ideas where to look , I did find what I'm looking for on ebay but there rated at 240v not sure if they will work


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## tnnewbe

Not sure if a nozzle heater band is the same as a band heater or not but I'm sure someone here can clarify that.
If they are the same or will work then you might try here.
http://www.thermalcorporation.com/n...IyxiHGxNVgQACSr9HFPPL_K3CqsTiySBoCidoQAvD_BwE
A 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 250 watt 120 volts is $9.90 which seem cheap enough.

Ken


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## rwmccor

tennewbe,
just got off chat with a rep from this company,minimum 6 pieces for an order no tax id required. waiting for a quote for them now will post the p
total price when i receive it.It will be different but will give you a clue to the cost.


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## laketrout

I made out better today dealing with ims , called them directly on the phone and they waved all shipping and handling charges using my own ups shipping number , got two on the way .


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## laketrout

Ordered band clamps on Friday and I got them today ( Monday ) , can't beat that !!


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## tnnewbe

Glad to hear of the good service. The price looks good but I no longer have UPS or FedEx account. If you don't mind saying, how much was the shipping and handling if you did not have a UPS account? It does not look like you need a tax number. I have a 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 250 watt sleeve but not sure if it will be enough of not so need to have a option. Have you checked the OHM reading yet to see what the actual wattage is?


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## laketrout

the 101636 was the one johno suggested I believe from ims , haven't checked the ohm reading yet , they wanted 25.00 shipping and handling if I didnt use my acct number !!! What was the ohm reading we are looking for 50 ohms ?


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## laketrout

Just checked two of the ims band heaters rated for 250 watts . and they both measured 57 to 58 ohms , according to a ohms calculator it measures 252 watts which is right on the money looks like these ims units are very good quality .


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## sr4440

laketrout said:


> Just checked two of the ims band heaters and they both measured 57 to 58 ohms , according to a ohms calculator it measures 252 watts which is right on the money . 120 v , 2.10526 amps , 57 ohms and 252.63158 watts


https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/ohms-law-calculator.html

Joe

edit: I was really slow!!


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## Beebeard

Got 2 of the recommended bands, made the apparatus as described, plugged them in, and each one got hotter and hotter until the copper was glowing, then the heaters caught fire and exploded. My wife was all :lpf: 
Don't know what i did wrong


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## sr4440

What are you using for a temperature control? Is it the Ta4-RNR? If so, tell me which wire you had on each terminal. 

Joe


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## laketrout

Joe can you give me some wiring instruction with the mypin ta4-RNR just got it , before mine goes up in smoke!!


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## sr4440

laketrout said:


> Joe can you give me some wiring instruction with the mypin ta4-RNR just got it , before mine goes up in smoke!!


here's how i wired mine up
pin1 110v and wire from band heater
pin 2 110v and jump wire to pin 3
pin 3 jump wire to pin 2
pin 4 2nd band heater wire

pin 7 red wire from thermocouple 
pin 8 other wire from thermocouple

note if it doesn't display temp when plugged in, reverse wires on 7 and 8

FYI I also used this video for my initial setup (it's long) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFVcrtQ_pdQ
10 mins after i set it up i forgot everything. lol

Joe


----------



## laketrout

Thanks for the help joe appreciate it


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## Beebeard

No Mypin temp controller, only the band and the pipe just like the ones shown earlier in the thread that folks said worked great. So I'm out the $15 bucks worth of heaters. FWIW, I took the fried heater off, refilled the charge, stuck the outlet pipe in a test box and heated the bottom of it with my torch. sublimation begins gently at 1 minute, heavy fogging by 1:30, took the heat away at 1:45, fog dissipated till the 2:00 mark and was done. Let the thing cool down, popped the cap, and it was all evaporated. I did it 5 times and it was consistent every time. might be the easiest way yet; no wires at all.


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## aiannar974

duplicate


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## aiannar974

Beebeard - Please post a short video or a few pics.

Thank you,

Anthony


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## Beebeard

I'd be happy to, but probably will be a week or two before I can get to it.


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## snl

Mistakes are the best taechers ?

Might want to correct the mistake in you signature ..... but maybe that was on purpose.


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## laketrout

PICKED UP A 1 1/4'' copper coupling today for my 1 1/2 '' band heater , my local plumber had it , 1 1/2 '' copper pipe is 1 1/2'' ID . and 1 5/8'' OD so it would be a heck of a stretch to get it on but I think johno did it . I will see if the coupling tightens up enough to make a good tight fit .


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## laketrout

I finally got 5 mins to see if the 1 1/2'' band heater would tighten up on the 1 1/4'' coupling and its a little shy I can slide the band heater if I want , I'd like it a little tighter for good heat transfer , only thing I can think of is a very thin sheet of copper to use as a shim . I might get a piece of 1 1/2'' pipe and turn it down some on the lathe and then I will get a better fit .


----------



## Beebeard

https://youtu.be/8Vr-bh_Eq0I As requested, a short video on what I came up with after 2 band heaters went kaput on me. I'm going to start a new thread as this is different from the method in this thread and I don't want to take over.


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## aiannar974

Thank you Beebeard - Thats well done. A lot more than a photo or a quick phone video. Thanks again


----------



## laketrout

Has anyone had any luck expanding the IMS 101636 band heater over a piece of 1 1/2'' pipe the heaters are pretty solid and don't expand easily past a certain point , wish I had a piece of pipe to see if it will go , I believe johno may have tried it and got it to go not sure .


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## sr4440

After reading your post, i went and checked my parts (haven't put this one together yet) and it was tight on a 1 1/4 coupler, but it was a IMS 134619. If it was close but still slid, i would do about 3 or 4 wraps of aluminum foil over the pipe and see if it gets tight enough. 


Joe


----------



## laketrout

Thanks for the idea Joe but I was able to expand it enough to get a perfect fit , I had a piece of aluminum round stock laying around and turned a plug for the bottom on the lathe to help hold the heat , thanks for the tip johno .


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## johno

Just got back from 3 weeks in New Zealand and see that this thread is still alive. For anyone using a 250 watt 11/2" band heater you must have a temp controller, if you make the 1" one with a Chinese band heater no controller is required. The 11/4" couplings that I have used measure 1.84" in diameter and I had no problems with the 11/2" band heaters that I have used so they might vary with different manufacturers so if you have a problem try the band heater on a piece of 11/2" copper pipe.


----------



## Saltybee

Three weeks in New Zealand sounds nice.
Our shortest day today; 8hrs 55min 42 seconds. Tomorrow we gain 2 seconds, can't wait.


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## KenNashua

For mounting the copper pipe to the aluminum bar are people just drilling a hole and screwing down from the inside? After brazing for my first time, I was contemplating just brazing a flat-head screw to the bottom to keep from disrupting the nice copper vaporizing surface inside. Thoughts?


----------



## allniter

that is what I did KEN only I use all pipe stainless steel welded a screw on the bottom-- works great


----------



## johno

Ken if you are using the 11/2" 250 watt band heater the thermocouple should be fixed to the flat bottom with a nut and washer so brazing the screw to the flat bottom will make that more difficult to achieve. Using 1" pipe and the Chinese band heater that would be fine. After all this time the temp controlled 250 watt heater system works so well that I would no longer bother with the 1" system.
Johno


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## laketrout

I'm thinking about drilling and taping the aluminum bottom plug I made for the bottom and using a piece of 1/4'' all thread with a lock nut


----------



## johno

Way to go laketrout, If you have the use of a lathe it would be good to turn a bottom plug out of aluminum step it for a very tight inside diameter heat the copper and press it onto the cooper sleeve. A tapped hole in the bottom will take care of the attachment and the mass of aluminum will create a heat sink which will help maintain the temperature.
Johno


----------



## tnnewbe

I like the idea but..........
The expansion of the aluminum is greater than the copper so you may find that the aluminum will expand enough to stretch the copper to where you will not have a good tight fit. This could be especially true after the unit cools down or after a few uses. The copper also become softer after it is heated which would greater increase the risk of stretching.
I hope that I am wrong and I don’t mind being proven wrong. I had thought about doing something like that but my fear was as I mentioned above plus i was not sure that the aluminum would not pull the heat from the copper tube. if it did then you might find that the small tube would frost over inside because of not enough heat getting to it. 
Ken


----------



## aiannar974

This is how the provap gets around worrying about the expansion


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4bUdN894KE&feature=share


----------



## johno

I cant imagine why one would want to remove the bowl. However if the aluminum would be tight on the copper sleeve cooling the aluminum and heating the copper and then getting a good fit I doubt that when both are heated the expansion would create a problem, and if it did a couple of screws certainly sorts that.
Johno


----------



## Cjj

I used a 1/4 piece of aluminum , I did not make it a press fit mine drops in , drilled and taped the center and it is all put together with a threaded rod , I have well over 300 shot through it without any problems of any kind


----------



## snl

johno said:


> I cant imagine why one would want to remove the bowl.


Broken tip from carelessness or ???? Especially if the hired help are not as careful with your equipment as you.


----------



## laketrout

I drilled and taped the outside edge for three flush screws 4-40 to hold the aluminum plug in place , I did turn a step in it and its also a tight fit


----------



## tnnewbe

I'm glad that the aluminum to copper fit works. 
I tend to be over cautious and was also concerned about vapor leaking from any type of cracks between the aluminum and copper. I realize that the amount would have been very little but the industry that I worked in before retiring would have not let that slide. I do appreciate all of you sharing your experience and posting it here so that the rest of us can benefit from it. I'm in the process of building a unit and will post my successes and failure when I’m done. I did decide to go with the 1 ¼” copper tubing with an end cap but have found that I need to add another piece of copper above the cap. The end cap is only a 1” long and my band heater is 1 ½” so I’m not getting enough heat up at the spout. i also think that it would shorten the life of the heater because of a hot spot ring in that area.


----------



## Biermann

Hello All,

I just found this thread today and looked through it to understand this type of vaporizer. I am using a aluminum pan with two glow plugs, but don't like the disturbance one puts on the bees. This vaporizing from the back through a small hole makes more sense to me. Anyway, with all answers come more questions and I will ask them now.

1. Can one add something to produce more vapor with the same amount of OA? The reasoning would be to increase the amount of vapor to carry the OA crystals in the vapor through the hive. 

2. Is the temp. control really that important? On my alu pan it seems to work fine in 1 minute without temp. controller. 

3. Anything non toxic to use for test run vaporizing, that reacts like OA, but does not have the danger?

4. Would a small, very small ventilator build in to the system make sense to give a very light blow of the vapor into the hive to bring it more in and up to the two brood boxes?

I am getting the parts together to build a band heated vaporizer, but like to go a step further (if need to be). My few hives are close enough to my house to use 110V.

Thanks for any help, Joerg


----------



## johno

Hi Bierman, read as much as you can in this thread there are pics and maybe a few videos on how this thing works, but let me try to answer your questions # 1 there is no need to add anything as the pre heated bowl creates some pressure from the boiling of the water of crystallization and also from the OA sublimation. # 2 with the 250 watt band heater if you do not control the temperature you will burn out the element if it is left on for maybe more than 4 to 5 minutes. # 3 just test it by shooting it into 2 or 3 empty boxes with a piece of glass or plexi closing off the top, stay upwind and wear at least a paper particulate mask. # 4 no need for anything else, provided you stick to the outlet pipe size and have the outlet at least 11/4" from the bottom. I have vaporized with this thing at least 200 times this year and it is quick and easy.
Johno


----------



## KenNashua

It won't win any beauty prizes, but it does work, which says a lot since it's 8 degrees out.

I had brazed a stainless steel screw to the bottom, but it didn't hold during assembly, so just resorted to mounting it through a hole in the bottom.


----------



## johno

Hi Ken, yes it does work and if you have a few hives it is cheap and does the job. Drawbacks are of course having to grind out the mocap plug to take a 2 gram charge and then having some sort of timer to make sure you give it at least a minute to reheat between treatments. But still way better than a wand.
Johno


----------



## Biermann

I am not a electronics expert, but would a multi timer relay work here, one timer setting for the heat mode and one for the steam mode? I assume this is all depending on ambient air temp. & speed? insulting will probably make a difference.

Edit: Additional, we plan to weld the copper joints rather than solder, than use insulation band like KenNashua did without any heat conductor other than the stem from the band heater. Also insulating the pipe except for 2" to feed the vapor in to the hive. lets see how this goes. I guess one wants to have several caps to pre-load OA? 

Joerg


----------



## johno

Biermann when I used the first cheapestvap I made I used a acurite kitchen timer with it. You just need to start vaporizing then hit the timer start, load your second cap wait 30 seconds remove the vaporizer remove the cap go to your next hive and when your timer is at 1minute 30 seconds reset it fit your second cap and start all over again. It got a little complicated when I tried to use 2 vaporizers to do 24 hives. Eventually made everything much easier by going to the 11/2" 250 watt temperature controlled " cheapvap"
Johno


----------



## tnnewbe

Here is my version.
I have finally finished my vaporizer which turned out to work quite well. I guess like most people I chose to do my own thing on a couple of things. I chose to make my case out of wood. I tried using the electrical box but did not like it. I have a wood shop so it was easy for me to plane down lumber and make the box thin but thick enough to be strong. I followed most of the ideas from the people here who had done a lot of trial and error but of course had to make some of my own mistakes. I went with a 1 ¼ ID copper tube for my vessel and then put a 1 ¼ copper cap on one end which gave me about 1 inch of area where the band heater would make contact. My band heater was a 1 ½ x 1 ½ 250 watt nozzle type band heater. Not having full heater contact was a mistake because I found that the spout was not getting enough heat and would plug up. I also had the bright idea that a ¼ inch spout would be better even though it had been said that 3/16 was the ideal size. My thought was that I could always close the size down by putting a 3/16 tube into the ¼ inch tube. I thought about making the spout shorter but I realize that the heater really needed to make full contact up to the spout for it to work best. I know, I know it had been pointed out somewhere in the tread but we all have to make our own little mistakes. I made another vessel using the same size tube and cap but cut the end off another cap and placed it above the first end cap. This time I used a 3/16 tube for my spout. I brazed all of this together using Stay-Silv 15 Phos-copper silver brazing alloy. I have a Bernzomatic torch that use Mapp gas and oxygen which works for the brazing. For anyone going out to buy one of these, be aware that the oxygen tanks do not last very long. You can braze about 2 of the vessels before you are out of oxygen. I did place a copper washer inside the vessel to give me a bit more mass at the bottom. I did use stainless steel bolts, nuts and washers. I used heat resistant silicone to insulate the bolt and washers from the “L” bracket. The small “HOT” sign was something that I had from when is working. With the 1 ¼ inch vessel I had to use the 1.187/1.437 HOLLOW SILICONE PLUG, RED-OXIDE plugs. The hollowed out area in the plugs would only hole about 2 grams of OA so I enlarged them by cutting a “V” into them. I have a small lathe so I made a wooden block with a tapered hole to hold them. I used a backing plate behind the block and used a Exacto knife to cut the taper. Everything else is the same as what has been tried and proven in this thread. 
My thanks to all the people in this thread who contributed and shared their time and effort into making this vaporizer.


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## johno

Tnnewbe you would do a lot better if you insulate the chamber, the other thing that might interest you is using a 11/4" copper pipe coupling then weld the piece of cap to it or if you can turn metal make up an aluminum plug to fit into the 11/4" coupling.
Johno


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## laketrout

Nice job Tnnewbe looks good 

What can I expect when I power up the mypin for the first time , does it need to be set up to the desired temps


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## tnnewbe

John:
Thanks for the input. I will have to check but I think the 1 1/4" coupling is too short. I believe that the coupling is only about 2" long and with the aluminum (I can turn metal) pushed into it I believe it would be way too short. If i understand correctly on the other method you are saying to butt weld the cap to the coupling which would give it the length.
Right now I have a double wall of copper which I would think would give me more mass to heat the OA but the downside would be longer to heat up maybe causing overshoot. You have done way more experiment with this than i have so I bow to your wisdom.
Ken


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## sr4440

laketrout said:


> Nice job Tnnewbe looks good
> 
> What can I expect when I power up the mypin for the first time , does it need to be set up to the desired temps


i posted a link to a youtube vidieo that covers the settings 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?332394-Band-heater-vaporizer&p=1592971#post1592971


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## johno

Tnnewbe, if what you have works for you don't worry about it. If it takes a few more seconds to reach operating temperature that will not be a problem. As for the temp controller you will need to check its settings so you require to look at the data sheet and see what some of the symbols look like, By pressing and holding set you can get into the parameters. Each time you push set thereafter you scroll down each parameter, the ones you need to check are the thermocouple types and I think the setting they send it with is for type K if you are not using a type k you need to select the type you are using then the only other I have changed is when you scroll down to temp setting C or F I think it comes with C and you must change this to F if you want to operate in F once that is done after a period of time it will go back to normal reading. At this time you must put in your desired temp setting in the C or F format you have chosen by pressing the AT button and setting your temp one digit at a time. For C you need around 350 and for F about 450 from there you can adjust as you feel the need to get 2 grams sublimated in about 20 seconds. Have fun! remember if all else fails read the book.
Johno


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## tnnewbe

Johno:
I got the Mypin setup okay. As far as reading the book, I prefer what you have written. 8>)
You are saying to set the temperature to about 450. The OA max temperate is supposed to be 372, does this high temperature do any harm to the OA or does the dump load cool it down so fast that little or no damage to the OA happens? I have use the wand for several years and I know that it gets up to more than the 450 shortly before it finishes sublimation. I did some temperature test on the wand after I noticed that I had some frames where the bottom was charred. I made some changes to eliminate that issue but this unit solves that problem plus it will be much faster for the 30 hives that i have.
Ken


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## johno

Ken the gorilla in the room is latent heat. In some tests that I did I found that it takes 4 times the time to sublimate a gram of Oxalic acid than to vaporize a gram of water. So that higher set point actually gives you a cushion of heat that does not drop the temperature radically when that draw of latent heat takes place, you will see the temperature drop down into the 300 area as the sublimation takes place it may even go below 300 I don't remember but it falls to around the sublimation temperature. But you can set the temperature to where you feel comfortable. If you had to set the temperature to the sublimation temperature there would be no problem except it would take you much longer to sublimate the OA so all we are doing with the higher temperature is to provide the extra heat to cut down on the time. You may have also read that vaporizing from the middle of the hive seems to get a better coverage of vapor than vaporizing from the bottom
Johno


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## tnnewbe

Johno:
Thanks for the explanation of what is happening with the higher heat. I read about doing it from the middle of the hive here in this thread which makes sense. When I had the issue with charred frame bottoms I built a tray to do under my screened bottom boards to eliminate that problem. I noticed some OA crystals on my tray after doing the treatment so i know that not all the crystals moved upwards. I should point out that I use all 8 frame medium boxes which means that i would need to treat either below the second or third box. I can do some test with boxes and a clear top to see how it distributes. I also use screened bottom boards and I've added a slatted bottom board a couple of years ago which may also affect the vapor. Some quick test will show me what i need to do. May have to wait for some warmer weather as its supposed to be around freezing for the next few days. That will give me some time to round up some insulation to put around the vessel.
Ken


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## johno

Ken we are much better of with this method as it will give a far better coverage of vapor than the pan types without the hot pan in the hive. Latent heat works both ways so the condensing OA also cools quite a bit, somewhere I posted some pics of vaporizing onto my arm a few inches from the end of the outlet and the hairs of my arm were filled with OA crystals without any discomfort from the sublimation heat. I also use 8 frame equipment and drill 1/4" holes in the back of my hives into the center of the brood nest close to the top edge in between the 2 center frames angling upwards at about 30 degrees so that the 3/16" outlet would be almost between the frames of the top and lower boxes. some 1" pieces of 1/4" dowel keep these holes closed until I need to vaporize.
Johno


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## tnnewbe

Johno:
I agree that this method will give much better coverage than the pan type vaporizer. I did see the picture where you were vaporizing onto your arm and it was quite clear that the coverage was good and you had little or no discomfort from it. Thanks for the clarification on where the hole went. I was not quite sure of where you were putting the hole. Thanks for all the sharing you have done.
Ken


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## rangerpeterj

I to have made both the pid controlled and non pid controlled units.They both work good , I like the non pid controlled better. I just set a timer for one min then when it goes off I go to the next hive. I like the smaller unit, I use to check temp all the time now I don't, every one min then next hive. I run 10 frame with slatted racks. At first test I found the OA would crystallize on the bottom of the slats, so I drilled my holes in the back of the rack 5/8" down in the center. This way the pipe comes between the slats between the center frames and I get a good unobstructed burn every time. Thanks again Johno Pete


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## tnnewbe

rangerpeterj:
There is no doubt in my mind that they both work well as long as you watch your time and have the right size heater on the non PID unit. For years I have used the pan type vaporizer but a couple of years ago I did some test using my pan type vaporizer. What I found was that at 150 seconds the pan temperature was 630F. The 150 seconds was when the last bit of OA was vaporized. Based on my information that the max temperature of OA was supposed to be 372F, it made me a little nervous but also knowing that I was getting good knock down without any bee kill relived that concern. I also knew that they had been using this method for over 20 years in Europe. I had worked with two commercial beekeepers here in TN who used it with no issues. I tried the fogging method but was not conformable because of the extreme heat in the fogger coils and no real way of knowing how much OA I was really delivering. When I saw this thread where I could control both the heat and amount of OA delivery I was very interested. After reading what all the people here were doing I also realized that the coverage would be much better whether using the PID or the non PID vaporizer. I had looked at the commercial units that use the same principle but they are way over my budget plus there is a certain amount of pride in making your own equipment.


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## waspslayer

This last Friday with the pouring down freezing rain I took the time to read all of the posts concerning the band heater vaporizer. From "cover to cover". There is a whole lot of information to glean. I was impressed with the amount of testing and sharing of information that went on. Within the last week or so I OA dribbled my 50+ hives. I used warm syrup but still believe this is hard on the bees.

I ordered up my parts for my own band heater vaporizer. Like others who have ordered the band heaters they will not arrive until the end of January of early Feb. Other items are on their way.

I have a few questions for Johno. 

1. I will be using a 3/16" delivery tube, what size hole and where on the hive body do you drill the hole for the OA vapor?

2. I will be using two 25 mm band heaters on a 1" copper tube. Are both heaters run through the My-pin TA4-RNR controller or one left out of the controller circuit and run independently "hot"?

3. The type K thermocoupler is held under the cup with a fender washer, nut and bolt. Is there a possibility of damage by squishing the t-coupler with the washer?

Thank you Johno for all of the great information you made available. I hope you had a great holiday in New Zealand. To all of the beekeepers out there I wish you a safe and Happy New Year.


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## waspslayer

This last Friday with the pouring down freezing rain I took the time to read all of the posts concerning the band heater vaporizer. From "cover to cover". There is a whole lot of information to glean. I was impressed with the amount of testing and sharing of information that went on. Within the last week or so I OA dribbled my 50+ hives. I used warm syrup but still believe this is hard on the bees.

I ordered up my parts for my own band heater vaporizer. Like others who have ordered the band heaters they will not arrive until the end of January of early Feb. Other items are on their way.

I have a few questions for Johno. 

1. I will be using a 3/16" delivery tube, what size hole and where on the hive body do you drill the hole for the OA vapor?

2. I will be using two 25 mm band heaters on a 1" copper tube. Are both heaters run through the My-pin TA4-RNR controller or one left out of the controller circuit and run independently "hot"?

3. The type K thermocoupler is held under the cup with a fender washer, nut and bolt. Is there a possibility of damage by squishing the t-coupler with the washer?

Thank you Johno for all of the great information you made available. I hope you had a great holiday in New Zealand. To all of the beekeepers out there I wish you a safe and Happy New Year.


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## johno

Waspslayer, I would recommend making the device with either a piece of 11/2" copper pipe or if your 11/2" 250 watt 120 volt band heater will fit a11/4" copper coupling. You can get one of these band heaters from " IMS heater bands " for about $10 I don't know what shipping would be. That is if you want to temp control. If you have a few hives the 1" pipe with a single heater will work fine if you allow a minute between treatments to allow the device to reheat. I make a I/4" hole at the top of the bottom box behind the hive in part above where the frames rest drill in the center so that would be between the center frames and drill upwards at about 30 degrees so that the vapor will emerge between the top of the bottom box frames and the bottom of the bottom box frames. with the temp controlled 1" unit I built I had both heaters temp controlled. with the 1" unit I had 2 problems, first the mocap plugs had to be ground out to take a reasonable OA charge and secondly its sublimation time was greater than with the 11/4"coupling unit as the surface area of the 1" unit was that much smaller. The type K thermocouples used are those one would use with a multi meter and just have a very small end, as I have 3 working at the moment none of which has had any problems with the thermocouple or anything else.
Johno


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## tnnewbe

Johno:
Wishing you a happy new year.
I'm more of a mechanical person with some high power experience so I have a quick question for you on the vaporizer. Because of the controller do we need to have clean power? I have one yard that it may be hard to always get my truck to so that i can use my inverter so do I need to have a small inverter generator or will the dirty power from a regular generator work?
Thanks
Ken


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## sr4440

I use a inverter and a generator that puts out way to much voltage (134), no problems so far. the PID controller TA4 works from 90-265 volts.

Joe


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## johno

Tnnewbe, a happy new year to you and to all the folks on Bee Source. I use a 500 watt modified sin wave inverter when treating my out yards and the system works great. Others are using small generators so I do not see a problem.
Johno


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## Saltybee

sr4440 said:


> I use a inverter and a generator that puts out way to much voltage (134), no problems so far. the PID controller TA4 works from 90-265 volts.
> 
> Joe


Off subject but a warning. My generator had been putting out a little high, about 128. On the 4th day without power, after a re-fuel it jumped, to 174 on each leg. Whole lot of smoke and blown appliances. Lucky to not have a house fire, just a big smoke streak on a wall outlet where the wall plug used to be. New rectifiers are pretty cheap in comparison to appliance circuit boards.


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## johno

Saltybee what type of generator are you using, is it perhaps one of these small ones from Harbor Freight.
Johno


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## sr4440

Saltybee said:


> Off subject but a warning. My generator had been putting out a little high, about 128. On the 4th day without power, after a re-fuel it jumped, to 174 on each leg. Whole lot of smoke and blown appliances. Lucky to not have a house fire, just a big smoke streak on a wall outlet where the wall plug used to be. New rectifiers are pretty cheap in comparison to appliance circuit boards.


Well, I bought this generator in 1979, the voltage is controlled by how fast it's spinning. It's a 100% mechanical, the governor is a spring, weights about 75 lbs and is 1500 watts. When you get a 500 watt load on it, it slows down enough that the voltage drops to 123. LOL 

Joe


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## Saltybee

troy built 5k watt 6250 peak. Need that well water. Range is nice too.

Knew it was getting off target, did not expect the sudden complete failure of rectifier. 
I have never heard of voltage creep being an early sign of complete failure, guess it is.

When 40% of the state was without power at some point, replacement was not an option when it first started to creep up. Luckily I was able to find a replacement the next day when a local feed store was able to restock.


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## laketrout

will be getting ready to wire my unit soon and I just wanted to make sure I'm using the right wire , I have rolls of 16 and 14 gauge stranded automotive type wire is that suitable for 120v ans what we are doing .


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## johno

Laketrout for the internal wiring of the temp controller 16 gauge would be fine. The unit should not draw much more than 2.5 amps 16 gauge wire is rated at 10 amps. The only extra wire I needed was for the bridge between #2 and #3 on the temp controller, all the rest of the wires were direct to their connections on the controller.
Johno


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## laketrout

Ok johno I see that there all direct now except for the 2 to 3 thanks


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## waspslayer

Johno, Thank you for the updated information using the 1-1/4" copper coupling and the 250 w band heater along with the IMS website. There is a whole array of 250 w, 120 V band heaters. Do you have an IMS part number that you used?

I am looking forward to putting together the "Cheapo Mite Assassin".


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## waspslayer

Johno, Thank you for the updated information using the 1-1/4" copper coupling and the 250 w band heater along with the IMS website. There is a whole array of 250 w, 120 V band heaters. Do you have an IMS part number that you used?

I am looking forward to putting together the "Cheapo Mite Assassin".


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## waspslayer

Sorry about the double post, I live where the signal is very poor and I am never sure if any post ever goes through.


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## johno

Waspslayer I have only purchased one 250 watt heater from IMS and it was an expensive one the was for 120 and 240 volts so I cannot help with that. The other 250 watt heaters I bought from ebay. The only thing I can tell you is that they were sold as 11/2" x 11/2" and still fitted the 11/4" coupling fine now the 11/4" coupling measures 1.486" so is just below 11/2". The other thing I should mention is when the device is put together you should check your temp reading by filling the bowl with water and then let it boil off so that you can see if your temp is near 212 or 100 degrees whichever one you chose.
Johno


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## laketrout

I have the ims 101636 but like i said it was a little loose on 1 1/4 coupler sounds like different brands might vary some never got a chance to try it on 1/12 pipe I was able to expand it enough that it fit good .

Johno why the two different temp ranges


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## tnnewbe

Laketrout:
I think Johno is saying 212 degrees Fahrenheit or 100 degrees Celsius. Both are the same depending on whether you have your unit set to Fahrenheit or Celsius.
Ken


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## Kcnc1

Johnno

Thank you for this post. I am an electronic neophyte and so have a question. I have electrical access near my hives. If I create this band heater vaporizer with the band heaters from China, do i need any kind of transformer or can I run the whole thing off the standard electrical supply I have?


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## bend or

No transformer needed. The heater is a simple resistor so the frequency does not matter. The important part is the rated voltage, 120v is what you want. If you see one labeled 220 or 240 volt it will still work, but only produce 25% or 1/4 of the rated wattage on your 120volt outlet


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## laketrout

Thanks bend or wasnt sure .


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## johno

I use an extension cord 100ft long to reach all my hives in my home yard. Just be sure that the ground wire of your incoming power cord is firmly fixed to the end of the screw that holds the bowl to whatever you are using. Insulating the bowl will really make a big difference in the units performance. Now to dig myself out of some of this white global warming stuff.
Johno


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## tnnewbe

Johno:
For those that want to use autotune, do you start autotune after the temperature has reached the set temperature or from dead cold. I have seen some information showing to start with a pot full of water that is up to heat but I have not found anything close for the small vessel that we are using or the method where be load and the load goes away.
Thanks
Ken


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## johno

Ken I have never even tried autotune, The system is so basic I just selectedthe F scale and heat mode then just set the temperature. If you want more info on this autotune try google under mypin autotune. It just might set up the best differential between on and off. See what you can find and let us know. I think you would want to set your temperature and then turn on the auto tune function, just my guess.
Johno


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## tnnewbe

Johno:
Thanks for your reply. I knew you had not used the autotune but thought you would know more about it than me. I had done quite a bit of research on the net for autotune but found a lot of conflicting answers with no real data that I could use. A lot for lead pots which used the autotune after the pots came up to heat. That is different than the situation that we have where we are starting with a empty vessel. I found some data that said record both from cold startup and preheated and it should be somewhere in between which is not much help. So far i have recorded before I insulated the vessel and after i insulated the vessel using preheated autotune and there is a small difference in the PID numbers. I will do some testing next week to see how the numbers change using cold start and preheated start plus changing the values to fine tune and post the results.
Ken


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## bend or

A bit long of a post, but little explanation on the controller

For this application pure hysteresis control would seem to be the best option. PID control is best suited for maintaining an exact temperature, or keep the temperature from overshooting on initial heat up.

Here is an example: an oven turns on at full heat until it gets to the set point of 350F, the element then turns off but the temperature actually keeps going up as the element continues to cool down. The actual temperature in the oven may peak at 375. Then the as the temperature cools down the element turns back on when the temperature passes approximately 340f. Then by the time the element is up to temperature the actual air temp in the oven may fall to 325 before starting to rise again. Note the oven manufactures only display your average set point. 

A tuned PI (without the D) controller will keep the the over and under shoots described above from happening and keep the temperature at a very constant temp. The first downside is that it will take a little longer to get to the set point as as the temperature gets close to the set point the controller will start modulating the output (turning the element on and off) too keep the temperature from overshooting the setpoint. The second down side is that the tuning is set up for the steady state, the controller will take longer to detect a large change in the heat load in the system. The addition of a pot roast to an oven or oxalic acid to the pot will result in the controller take a little time before it turns the heating element all the way on resulting in a lower minimum temperature before the full heat is applied to bring the temperature back to the setpoint. 

The description above is for a controller only using the P and I portions of the controller. The third element is the Derivitive function. a derivitive is the slope of the temperature curve. Using the D can make the controller up the output when it sees a dip in the temperature, but this can also make the controller over sensitive and prone to ossilations in temperature. 

P= proportional control, an example would be a 20 degree proportional range, in this range it reduces the output 5% per degree. If only 50% of available power is needed to maintain temperature then the temperature will never reach the setpoint and maintain a constant temperature at 10 degrees below the setpoint

I= itergal, accounts for the steady state error from above, essentially it creates a false setpoint above the actual setpoint so the proportional control can drive the system to the setpoint.


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## Biermann

Okay, the PID controller makes sense, but if I insulate my Vaporizer good and figure my preheat and heat (vaporizer) cycle time out, could I not go with two timers, one for preheat and one for vaporizing with a simple single pole, temporary double throw switch? Or are double function timers available? Timer relays are now pretty small and don't need much space for enclosure. Or is this a stupid thought?

Joerg


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## johno

As Bend or mentions in his top post PID control is for controlling more complicated devices to a closer temp tolerance and is not really required for the band heater type of device. The heat source that we are using could never keep the device at the set point value as far more energy is used to sublimate the OA than the band heater could apply. So if we were to use the PID function all we would do is slow the treatment time and would probably wear out the controller relay contacts faster than on the normal on off control. Remember that the overshoot in temp with the on off control can provide that extra heat to sublimate the OAV quicker than if strictly temperature controlled as the latent heat required will drag the temperature down. If you have tried to go to autotune you may have to go back into the programming parameters to reset back to on off control if that is where you want to be. Bierman there is no need for a timer as when you treat the temp will drop into the 300 area and once it rises above 400 you are done temps in F if you are working in C when it rises above 300 it is done I think but you will soon see by the temp of your device.
Johno


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## laketrout

Couple questions on wiring , I took the two prong plastic plug off of my thermocoupler so one wire goes to terminal 7 or 8 and to the vessel pot and is silver soldered on , the other wire goes into terminal 7 or 8 and goes where 

other question is there no off on button on the mypin as soon as you plug it in its up and running and getting hot , are you wiring in a off on switch


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## bend or

If the TC has colored wire the red is negative for type k. If no insulation color on the wire install the wire into the terminals and heat up the junction point. If the temp reading goes up. Good to go. If the temperature drops then then the polarity is incorrect, reverse the wires. 

I think that answers the question, if not I can try again

Edited due to some auto correct errors


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## laketrout

its a k style but its two very small solid wires in a braided white sheathing that had a orange plastic plug on one end and it was marked positive and negative on the plug can I run one of the wires from vessel to 7 or 8 and the other side from 7 or 8 to where ?


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## bend or

For the question posed you should be able to just pit the two wires from the connector directly into the two terminals. 

The two wires that were in the connector are connected at the tip of the thermocouple. Further explanation below if needed, just trying to cover all the potential questions. Looking at photos on line it looks like there is an icon next to the 7 and 8 terminals showing the two wires going to the thermocouple tip to measure the temperature.

Put one wire into terminal 7, that wire goes to the junction point, (TC tip, or solder point) the other wire comes back from the junction point and goes to terminal 8. The two wires are of different metals and the difference creates a voltage at the junction point that the controller reads. Essentially a TC is a tiny battery and the controller measures the voltage generated in micro-volts.


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## laketrout

Ok , sorry im having trouble grasping this , your saying to use the two wires from the plug end because there already separate from each other and put one wire in # 7 and the other one in #8 the other end of the T C the two wires are soldered together , I can separate them and solder one of them to the vessel but I dont know where the other wire goes . maybe you mean the end that is soldered together both go on the vessel .


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## bend or

Yes if the two wires are not connected twist them together and solder them to the subliminatiin bowl. Be mindful of the solder melting temperature if used as the securing method (can not remember if this has been addressed) as the temperatures it will encounter are above many of the solder melting points I have looked at in the big box stores.


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## laketrout

Thanks for your help much appreciated , this has been a fun project and a learning experience all in one , hopefully i can test it tomorrow with water and see if it works and get the mypin adjusted .

One more thing , my T C is 6 ft long can I cut it down to length to fit .


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## bend or

Yes, it can be shortened without issue. (I would leave a little extra length just in case the layout changes as you are testing)


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## johno

The opposite end of the thermocouple from where you removed the connector should have the 2 wires connected together you should not interfere with that, that end gets clamped between the washer and the bottom of the bowl the other 2 wires from the other end get connected to #7 and # 8. The negative goes to #7 and it may be difficult to tell which one is negative, as type K consists of a chrome alloy conductor and a aluminum alloy the saying goes magnegative to the conductor that is magnetic will be negative. Anyhow that's how it worked about 45 years ago so once you have connected the thermocouple and have connected it all up turn it on and as it heats the temperature on the mypin should increase if it goes the other way reverse the 2 thermocouple leads.
Johno


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## laketrout

johno putting it on the threaded stud will be easier I thought i read somewhere you were silver soldering directly to the vessel ,its such small wire I thought it might melt the wire . thanks


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## johno

Laketrout the last post explains, to take the tip of the thermocouple and clamp it between the bottom of the bowl and a fender washer by means of the #10 screw that you will use to hold the bowl onto a piece of aluminum bar. So insert the screw through the hole in the bottom of the bowl, lay the thermocouple onto the bowl add a fender washer and a nut to clamp the washer and the thermocouple to the bottom of the bowl and using a phillips screwdriver to hold the screw on the inside of the bowl use a wrench on the nut outside and tighten as hard as you can then add 3 more nuts to space the bowl from the bar or whatever you are bolting the thing onto and away you go.
Johno


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## laketrout

Thanks for all the help from everyone everything seems to be working great got my set point at 400 f and temp is climbing when plugged in , now if the temp ever gets up past o degrees outside I will fill the pot and see how it vaporizes .


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## laketrout

Will this three amp switch handle the power draw from the band heater , i think it would be handy to have a switch rather than having to plug and unplug the extension cord https://www.platt.com/platt-electri...itches/Leviton/5410-I/product.aspx?zpid=34961


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## johno

Laketrout a 250 watt heater draws around 2 amps so there should not be a problem with the relay contacts. Generally when treating a bunch of hives I get everything ready turn on the inverter or just plug the vaporizer into the extension cord wait for it to get to temperature then start to treat, when the device gets to set temperature it switches off but I just keep on treating until the yard is done then unplug the device put the hot end into a tin can and put it into the back of my truck and move on. However if you want a switch put one into the cord but it is just one more thing that can fail.
Johno


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## laketrout

ok thanks johno maybe i will try first without and see how it goes , probably not necessary but thought it would be handy


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## Bush_84

Ok everybody I just read through this entire thread. I don’t have the welding tool or experience. So I’m trying to find family/friend that does. If I’m not successful is it reasonable to just buy the provap replacement bowls/lids and buy the heaters/electronics from amazon/Ebay? It seems that I can source all the pieces I need, but I’m not sure about putting together the copper pieces. It would end up costing me considerably more than fabricating the pieces myself but would still be considerably cheaper than the $500 provap price tag.


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## waspslayer

Not to take anything away from the Provap people, but I think you will be saving $$ by finding someone who has a Oxy/Ace setup. If you have all of your pieces cut and ready to braze a welding shop or even a refrig repair place would solder it together for you perhaps for the price of a jar of local honey.


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## aiannar974

I just bought a used map/oxy benzomatic setup from eBay for $24. Might try that. It will be fun to learn. I know this is expensive to operate compared to more industrial setup but it is a small job.


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## tnnewbe

You need to copper braze, not solder. Solder will not hold up to the heat that the unit comes up to.
I used a Benzmatic torch setup with Map gas and Oxygen and 15% silver/copper rod and it worked fine.
Waspslayer is correct about finding a welding or refrig repair shop. If they don't have the copper rod for brazing you could order some off Amazon. 5 or 15% copper brazing rod will work fine. I used 15% because that was all I could find in stock at the time.
Don't hesitate to get one of the Benzmatic torches and try it yourself, it's not hard to get the copper rod to flow just like solder. It just has to be a hotter heat.
Ken


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## Bush_84

Turns out my brother in law has the tools necessary and should be able to help me out. Now onto getting materials.


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## laketrout

I vaporized a pot of oa with my new band heater and thought maybe it was to fast 20-30 seconds and it was done and it might not treat as well as the wand but after thinking about it the big difference is your not waiting for it to heat up everytime its always hot so once you turn the unit over and dump the acid its immediate and in 20 to 30 seconds its done and all of the acid is gone , and the pot is clean as a whistle , most of the wasted time with the wand is waiting 2 1/2 mins for it to heat up , this makes the band heater work really fast .


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## Bush_84

I was at menards tonight for a separate matter but couldn’t resist picking up some copper materials! I picked up one of those 1:25” couplers and a 1.25 end caps. I don’t recall reading this but it’s a long topic and I could be wrong. The coupler and end cap sit flush when you put them together. Is there any reason I couldn’t weld this as is? That way I could put the band heater right over the bottom of the weld and bottom of the bowl for optimum heating.


----------



## tnnewbe

Dan:
I see no reason you could not do it but you need to get the alignment good or you will have some air gaps between the band heater and the pot. You also would need to have a way to remove the excess weld material. Will the air gaps really hurt, i don't know but air is a poor insulator. I think Johno had mentioned that method to me somewhere in this thread but I did not feel that I could keep the alignment close enough. He had also mentioned about using just the coupler and welding a bottom on it but with the coupler only being abut 2" I was a bit leary of it being too short. I may be over thinking this whole thing. I have found some 1 1/2OD copper pipe from McMaster Carr and I'm going to try that with an aluminum plug in the end as someone else had suggested. This will be my third pot so I will be able to compare the data from each of those pots and post here. I did not really like my first pot because I used a 1 1/4 copper tube with a end cap. My band heater is 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 and with the cap only being 1 inch high that left me with about 1/2 inch of gap between the heater and the pot. My second try I cut the end off a second cap and put it above the first cap. Both of these work but I felt with the double layer of copper that my recover time was a bit high. My original thought was that the double thickness would help but I'm not so sure that it did. Anyway I will stop with this third pot and use the best one.
Ken


----------



## johno

Dan the 1.25 copper coupling works just fine but I cut a piece of 1" copper pipe about 11/2" long, cut it down the side heated it very hot then opened it up and flattened it. Put it on a dry brick put the coupling on top of the flattened copper then heat up and weld with the 15% copper rod. you can then trim as close to round as you can with tin snips (metal shears) then grind off the edges to make the bottom smooth. Drill your 3/16" hole in the bottom and your 3/16" hole for your outlet tube 1.3" from the bottom of the bowl. You also need to use a sharp edge to cut around the top of the bowl to make an easy entry for the mocap top. Hope this helps a little, if the unit is too much longer it will take longer to heat up and will also not blow out the OAV as well.
Johno


----------



## tnnewbe

Dan:
I see no reason you could not do it but you need to get the alignment good or you will have some air gaps between the band heater and the pot. You also would need to have a way to remove the excess weld material. Will the air gaps really hurt, i don't know but air is a poor insulator. I think Johno had mentioned that method to me somewhere in this thread but I did not feel that I could keep the alignment close enough. He had also mentioned about using just the coupler and welding a bottom on it but with the coupler only being abut 2" I was a bit leary of it being too short. I may be over thinking this whole thing. I have found some 1 1/2OD copper pipe from McMaster Carr and I'm going to try that with an aluminum plug in the end as someone else had suggested. This will be my third pot so I will be able to compare the data from each of those pots and post here. I did not really like my first pot because I used a 1 1/4 copper tube with a end cap. My band heater is 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 and with the cap only being 1 inch high that left me with about 1/2 inch of gap between the heater and the pot. My second try I cut the end off a second cap and put it above the first cap. Both of these work but I felt with the double layer of copper that my recover time was a bit high. My original thought was that the double thickness would help but I'm not so sure that it did. Anyway I will stop with this third pot and use the best one.
Ken


----------



## little_john

Hi guys - I've just popped-in having only recently been given the 'head's-up' on this thread. I've already started to build one of these gizmos, using mig-welded 45mm steel tube and a heater band which was purchased some time ago to fit that tube. Should be good enough to produce 'a Mark I' ...

Throughout this thread I've noticed a few comments about difficulties joining copper parts together for use at elevated temperatures, so thought I'd pass on a technique I've used successfully several times in the past.

As people have rightly commented, solder can't be used in this application as solders typically have melting points in the range 180-190 °C (360-370 °F).
However, pure lead has a melting point of 327.46 °C (621.43 °F) - which is well above OA's vapourisation temperature.

So - the method I've been using is to 'tin' the copper parts in the area of the joint with standard electronics-grade 60/40 solder, having well-cleaned those areas beforehand, and having applied a coating of flux to them. Then I've wiped-off that solder whilst still molten, using either moleskin or a plain paper towel. And - no matter how hard you try (which you should) - you will NEVER remove all of that solder. A microscopically-thin layer of solder will ALWAYS remain adhering to the copper.

Assemble the joint using more flux (I use plumber's flux paste) and heat it with a standard propane gas torch, then apply appropriate amounts of lead to the joint, just as if it were solder. Now because there will be a microscopic amount of solder already present, you'll never achieve a temperature limit close to 327 °C, but there's no reason why you shouldn't achieve something in the high 200's, maybe 280-290 °C - which will be well above your normal operating temperature, providing you wipe off as much solder as possible, AND use some form of temperature controller which I personally consider essential.

I find the most convenient source of lead for the above technique is roof flashing. Clean it well to remove the oxide layer, before cutting a few slivers away from the edges.

Brazing or silver-soldering are of course much better methods to employ than the above, but not everyone has the means to provide the necessary high temperatures.

Hope this proves of help to somebody.
LJ


----------



## Bush_84

So I just wanted to throw out a few things before buying more parts I may not use lol. So if I go buy some 1.5” pip and an end cap this heater will fit right?

https://www.imscompany.com/ProductNavigation/ItemDetail?ItemNumber=134619

What I plan on doing is cutting down the cap as far down as I can for the bottom. I’ll have to check at ace hardware as menards only had sections of pipe in 2 foot sections. I don’t need that much and ace sells by the foot I believe. Anyways if I buy a foot of 1.5” pipe I’ll just buy two caps and make two bowls, especially since I’m getting my brother in law to do the welding. May as well have some extra if needed or if I want a second unit at some point. The caps are pretty cheap. I already have a foot of the 3/16” pipe. Then it’s time to pick out electronics. Hoping to get this all ready before spring!


----------



## Bush_84

So I just wanted to throw out a few things before buying more parts I may not use lol. So if I go buy some 1.5” pip and an end cap this heater will fit right?

https://www.imscompany.com/ProductNavigation/ItemDetail?ItemNumber=134619

What I plan on doing is cutting down the cap as far down as I can for the bottom. I’ll have to check at ace hardware as menards only had sections of pipe in 2 foot sections. I don’t need that much and ace sells by the foot I believe. Anyways if I buy a foot of 1.5” pipe I’ll just buy two caps and make two bowls, especially since I’m getting my brother in law to do the welding. May as well have some extra if needed or if I want a second unit at some point. The caps are pretty cheap. I already have a foot of the 3/16” pipe. Then it’s time to pick out electronics. Hoping to get this all ready before spring!


----------



## bend or

Bush_84, pipe and tube are specified differently. Just to clarify the difference, 1.5inch pipe has tapered threads and is 1.9 inches on the outside diameter (this pipe is usually steel, black iron pipe, or brass). On pipe the band heater would have about 1.25” of gap which I do not think the screws would be able to span. Tubing is specified by the outside diameter and will be 1.5 inches. If you are using tubing like hard copper tube it looks like the heater will fit.


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## johno

If you use copper water pipe that is available from most hardware stores be aware that the inside diameter is used so 1" copper pipe is 1" ID and 1.12" OD now a 11/4" coupling is 1.37" ID and 1.49" OD pretty close to 1.5". Now if you use 1.5" of copper water pipe it will probably measure a little more than 1.6" which would not be a problem as you will be able to open up a 1.5" band heater to fit. So remember most water pipe is measured by the inside diameter.
Johno


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## Bush_84

johno said:


> If you use copper water pipe that is available from most hardware stores be aware that the inside diameter is used so 1" copper pipe is 1" ID and 1.12" OD now a 11/4" coupling is 1.37" ID and 1.49" OD pretty close to 1.5". Now if you use 1.5" of copper water pipe it will probably measure a little more than 1.6" which would not be a problem as you will be able to open up a 1.5" band heater to fit. So remember most water pipe is measured by the inside diameter.
> Johno


I decided to buy the heater first. I’ll bring the heater with to make sure I get pipe that fits. Sound like the 1.5” copper tube will fit however. If not I’ll just move smaller. Bought the heater today. Will start looking at caps and electronics.

Edit- as Im looking at caps I realize that there are two that will fit inside the 1.5” ID of the tube. There a 1.306 bottom and a 1.469 bottom. The 1.306 seems like a logical choice as it will sit deeper into the pip than the 1.469. That to me seems like it would seal better. What is everybody else doing?


----------



## little_john

I'm currently looking at methods of mounting the 'heated can' without losing too much heat from it by means of conduction, (say) by the use of some kind of insulator pad. But - can't identify a suitable material, without going into ceramics - which would obviously be ideal.
I've read in this thread that some kind of phenolic material has been used, but on checking I find that materials such as Tufnol(tm) and Paxolin(tm) are not rated for these temperatures. Neither is wood ...

The best idea I've had so far is to make-up a pad from several layers of glass tape bonded together with JB-Weld. Any thoughts on this particular issue ?
LJ


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## snl

For you "do it yourselfers," not trying to sell but help. I have the bowls and caps on my website if interested........


----------



## crofter

little_john said:


> I'm currently looking at methods of mounting the 'heated can' without losing too much heat from it by means of conduction, (say) by the use of some kind of insulator pad. But - can't identify a suitable material, without going into ceramics - which would obviously be ideal.
> I've read in this thread that some kind of phenolic material has been used, but on checking I find that materials such as Tufnol(tm) and Paxolin(tm) are not rated for these temperatures. Neither is wood ...
> 
> The best idea I've had so far is to make-up a pad from several layers of glass tape bonded together with JB-Weld. Any thoughts on this particular issue ?
> LJ


Multiple layers of glass fiber material between the vessel and the handle has worked for me. Muffler cement also could be used to put a coating on the glass fiber. It makes a readily moldable quick setting refractory to reduce heat loss into the handle and mounting system. It is readily available in small tubes. Worth a try!


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## laketrout

I'm pretty sure I went with the 1.306 for the 1 1/4 coupler , it will be different for 1 1/2 pipe though and mine fit down in pretty far . 

Johno I am getting some leakage with my aluminum plug for a bottom it was a nice snug fit and three screws holding it on I'm a little surprised didn't think it would have time to leak . Can you think of anything that would seal it that can take the heat were using and also not hurt the bee's , maybe the one piece is better but it sure works good .Wonder if my set temp of 400 is to hi as my temp never goes under 350 degrees during the burn off and I have nothing insulating the vessel , my 1/4'' outlet tube is clogging up also but its long I never got it cut down its probably 2 1/2 '' long .


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## laketrout

Something else I found while treating today , when I started out I treated through the back access for the sticky board on the bottom and was hoping to see vapor come up through the hive and come out the top but didnt notice any , when I got to the hives that dont have the sticky board access I had to treat from the top entrance and lo and behold vapor was escaping out the front lower entrance , so it does seem like treating through the top is better . Its hard to figure this out as treating through the bottom with the wands did work .


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## sr4440

laketrout said:


> I'm pretty sure I went with the 1.306 for the 1 1/4 coupler , it will be different for 1 1/2 pipe though and mine fit down in pretty far .
> 
> Johno I am getting some leakage with my aluminum plug for a bottom it was a nice snug fit and three screws holding it on I'm a little surprised didn't think it would have time to leak . Can you think of anything that would seal it that can take the heat were using and also not hurt the bee's , maybe the one piece is better but it sure works good .Wonder if my set temp of 400 is to hi as my temp never goes under 350 degrees during the burn off and I have nothing insulating the vessel , my 1/4'' outlet tube is clogging up also but its long I never got it cut down its probably 2 1/2 '' long .


you can use permatex hi-temp silicone to seal your leaks. it's good to 650.

Joe


----------



## little_john

crofter said:


> Multiple layers of glass fiber material between the vessel and the handle has worked for me.


Frank - many thanks - the wording of your reply triggered an idea which I think may well work. My original plan - once having tested mild steel - was to make the 'finished product' from stainless, with a bolt welded to the bottom of the 'can' for mounting. But now I can see another way ... 

If an 'outer can' is made to fit around the 'heated can', and then cut vertically in half to form two halves of a clam-shell, then glass rope can be wound around the inner 'heated can', with the clam-shell 'outer can' holding that glass rope in place and compressing it slightly - the clam-shell itself being held together with two Jubilee clips. And, if a length of threaded rod is welded to each clam-shell half, then these can be used to mount the assembly (onto whatever), with a minimum of heat loss taking place - and - reducing the risk of injury from burns at the same time. Thanks Frank.
LJ


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## laketrout

LJ if you go with the 1 1/2'' band I don't think insulating is necessary as my temp. doesn't drop that much to warrant it


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## laketrout

Joe I was thinking about that and wondered if the odor would hurt the bee's but after its cured and a few heating cycles I wouldn't think there would be anything left to burn off , what do you think .


----------



## rwmccor

SNL,
What size are the caps on your site that are for sale ??to fit a 11/4 coupling or 11/2 water pipe ?
I'am thinking the 11/2 water pipe, as buying feet of pipe compared to couplings would more cost
effective for provap ?


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## sr4440

Laketrout, once it done vulcanizing, there will be no more oder.

Joe


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## little_john

laketrout said:


> [...] it does seem like treating through the top is better . Its hard to figure this out as treating through the bottom with the wands did work .


Well, I've not have the experience which Johno has acquired on this by watching through a perspex cover - but I'd suggest that circulation with the Varrox-type wands is helped by the heat source remaining within the hive during the application - the presence of which would presumably help to set-up a slight warm-air circulation - and so the cloud of dust particles will tend to ride that warm air.

When injecting OA dust from the top, there is no longer any heater present inside the hive, and so the dust cloud will simply begin to float downwards as the warm air within the cloud cools. So - both methods of application would seem to be broadly equivalent - especially as the bees then presumably take over and continue with spreading the OA around.

Just my hunch as to what might be happening.
LJ


----------



## laketrout

Sounds good LJ , the air from the pro vap style is cool and no heat source in the hive , wonder if pro vap will change there instruction on treating through the bottom , thanks


----------



## snl

laketrout said:


> if pro vap will change there instruction on treating through the bottom , thanks


Nope, but maybe add that treatment from the top is also an option.


----------



## johno

Laketrout your mailbox is full. I have fitted the bowl of my vaporizers to a piece of aluminum angle by means of #10 or 5mm screw with four nuts between the 2 so that the bowl is well spaced above the angle, this angle probably 11/2" is then attached to a hardwood block and I have had no problems with the wood so far. For those who have not insulated the bowl I would advise to do so as the unit will heat up and vaporize much quicker if insulated and there is less chance of accidental burns.
Johno


----------



## little_john

snl said:


> Nope, but maybe add that treatment from the top is also an option.


Which is what the Sublimox guys suggest, so it would appear that top entry *is* a tested and proven method, albeit one which requires some modification (or addition) to the standard hive body:



> The diffusion of oxalic acid vapors can be done by the entrance of the hive or by the top of the beehive using a frame cover or reverse frame feeder, in which a hole or a groove of 7 mm has been made, to allow the introduction of the diffuser tube.
> 
> Translated from: Mode d'emploi Sublimox - ICKO - 84500 Bollène France


LJ


----------



## texanbelchers

It may not be ideal, but I blow into the entrance with an external device and it will come out the top if there is a crack. Ian has some video of the ProVap usage where he opens the top cover and you can see the fumes. It seems to circulate fairly well.


----------



## Bush_84

Picked up my 1.5” pipe and two end caps. The copper tube wasn’t available at ace and menards smallest length was 2’. So I figured I’ll make up two bowls while I’m at it. I have the stuff for it. My brother in law will be helping me with the welding on Thursday. I’ve gotten the band heater and controller. Just waiting for the thermocouple. Must be coming from overseas as it’s like another two weeks away. Either way I can get most things put together. I also still need my stainless steel 3/16” bolt/nuts/washers for attaching the bowl to the rig. I’ll just pick that up before going to my brother in laws. Pretty pumped!


----------



## laketrout

Dan are you attaching the end caps flush with the tube , you don't want a step or any uneven wall that would create a space under the bad heater and you want the band clamp at the bottom , good luck


----------



## Bush_84

laketrout said:


> Dan are you attaching the end caps flush with the tube , you don't want a step or any uneven wall that would create a space under the bad heater and you want the band clamp at the bottom , good luck


We are going to try to trim down the end cap.


----------



## tnnewbe

Dan:
I have tried 3 different pots and this one seems to have worked best during my test on a 60 degree day. As mentioned above an air gap between the heater and the pot body (my first pot) works but not real well. My second try was cutting a second end off the a cap and placing it above the first cap. This gave me a double wall which I thought would be best and that did work better but I seemed to have trouble with my recover time. I found some 1 1/2 OD copper pipe at McMaster Carr and made an aluminum cap as pictured. I made it a interference fit of 0.002". The press fit along with the lip which is the same OD as the copper pipe seems to have solved the leak issue mention somewhere in this thread. The pot tube could be any size. When I ordered the 1 1/2 OD I had something else in mind but changed my plans before it got here. The method shown in the picture has worked very good (at least in the tests) but i may have to do some fine tuning with the PID.
Enjoy the build. As Johno mentioned somewhere in this thread, insulate the pot. I found some ceramic insulation 1/2 inch thick which worked real well.
Ken


----------



## laketrout

Ken what size outlet pipe did you go with and how long , I used 1/4'' thinking that I can easily go down to 3/16 if I need to , the only thing I'm finding is I get alot of vapor but it was clogging up on me some but I had made my tube long thinking I could always trim it down later , I haven't tried it since trimming it down to see if it stops the clogging , not sure if the 3/16 tube would be less likely to clog or not


----------



## tnnewbe

Laketrout:
I used 1/4" x 2" long on my first pot. I had the same thought about taking a 1/4" down in size if it did not work. I never tried to downsize because I had some air space between the band heater and the pot. That space was on the upper 1/2" towards the outlet pipe. I had trouble with it trying to plug up but figured it was because of the pot not heating good enough because of the air space. I made another pot with that area covered as explained above and used a 3/16" OD pipe per Johno instructions. I think because of the extra pressure that the 3/16" tube has that it kept the tube clear. That pot worked good except that I had a slower recover time because of the double wall pot. All my outlet tubes have been 2" long. My third pot as shown in previous thread works great.
Ken


----------



## laketrout

Found out today my local plumber that I eat lunch with sometimes has about 10ft of 1 1/2'' copper pipe sitting in his shop he cut 6'' off for me enough for two vaporizers pretty cheap too .This stuff is hard to find unless your willing to buy the whole 10 ft length even my local Lowes won't sell it buy the foot !


----------



## Bush_84

ThIs is my bowl. The heater needs to be pushed down a little further. I made two bowls and the other has the cap trimmed down even more. The other one needs quite a bit more burr cleanup before I do anything with it. I the end I may just use the other one as it can go down a smidge further. I just wanted to fit my band heater on. It’s gets on but boy is it tight. I wouldn’t need the clamp to keep it on. Just waiting for my k thermocouple and plugs. 

What does everybody use to house the controller? I was initially going to use an electric box but It’s a bit tall. Was thinking of just making one frame scrap, but that would increase the weight of the device, especially if I hang the device from the hive when in use.

Edit- mounted the bowl to the frame. Now I just need to make up a box or whatever and look up wiring again.


----------



## laketrout

Dan I used the deep blue plastic box and it turned out great , I found a plastic cover plate that lined up to the two screws . I marked a square line that matched the mypin controller and cut it out with a Dremel tool with a cut off wheel worked out real good , drilled a hole on the bottom for a piece of plastic conduit and mounted all to a piece of wood, I will see if I can get a picture posted sometime .


----------



## laketrout

Ken I'm going to turn another aluminum bottom plug with a tighter fit , my first plug was 3/8 thick I'm thinking about going to 1/2'' to give it more sealing area , what thickness plug did you go with .


----------



## tnnewbe

Laketrout:
The dimensions shown are nominal dimensions that are the ID and OD of my 1 1/2 OD copper tube. My thickness is 3/8", I fit 1/4" into the tube and used 4-40 Flat Head Screws to secure. I made the fit into the tube 0.002" interference fit, it could be a little more but not much or you will split the tube. The 1/8" lip is not critical but it helps to give you a second seal which I found to be important. The chamfer is optional and not really needed. Put a small chamfer on the inside of the tube or undercut the corner radius on the plug so that you get a good tight fit and the tube fits down tight on the plug lip. I pressed the plug into the tube, drilled and contersunk the holes while it was in a vice. The same size OD as the tube allowed me to move the band heater down to bottom of the plug and heat it. Hope this helps and if any other questions do not hesitate to ask.


----------



## laketrout

Thanks Ken sounds good and nice drawings !! I'm going to start a second pot soon as I found some 1 1/2'' pipe locally. looks like the first build is going to work as the hi temp silicone seems to have sealed it up was hoping for another treatment this weekend with the warm temps .Treatments are going to be so much faster and easier with this style vaporizer I won't be dragging my feet and putting it off anymore .


----------



## Bush_84

Sorry all. Was just rereading looking for wiring and didn’t want to lose this. 



johno said:


> Arnie, if you have a mypin TA 4 the wiring diagram is on the right hand side of the unit, and shows input 90-260V so black to #1 and white to #2 one of the wires from the band heater will also go to #1 a short piece of wire then connects #2 to #3 then the other wire from the band heater goes onto #4. Normal practices would have the relay breaking the hot leg but I have purposely chosen the neutral leg (white wire) so if there is a ground fault in the heater it will not destroy the mypin contacts. $Just make sure the unit is grounded. The thermocouples I got were type K and there were 2 for $7-70 , just remove the yellow plug and connect to#7 and#8 turn the unit on and if the temp does not start climbing in about 30 secs turn it off and reverse the thermocouple leads and try again.
> Johno


----------



## brushwoodnursery

Couple of questions:
1 has anyone tried adding a cup/cap/tube like this to a varrox? (Is there overheating, not enough heating, does the latent heat of vaporization of the water in the OA cover the needed reduction of temperature in the pan?)

2 For distribution, wouldn't it make sense to add some air flow? I found a 300W mini heat gun. I think a full heat gun might blow too much air. It would also take too much power for a battery/inverter setup.

3 Seems like the hardest part of the build discussed here is the cup and cap. The other parts don't require special tools or skills, right? I know the idea is to go as inexpensive as possible, but could someone run up parts and instructions for cup and cap purchased at Oxavap?


----------



## brushwoodnursery

duplicate


----------



## cervus

brushwoodnursery said:


> Seems like the hardest part of the build discussed here is the cup and cap. The other parts don't require special tools or skills, right? I know the idea is to go as inexpensive as possible, but could someone run up parts and instructions for cup and cap purchased at Oxavap?


I had the same question. It's a shame the video illustrating replacement was disabled due to copyright on the ProVap website. Must be too easy to copy.


----------



## cervus

So what is the final verdict? I've read nearly all 23 pages and still can't ascertain whether the 1 1/2" with the PID is appreciably better than Johno's original w/o the controller and with 1" pipe and cap. I built an original and while requiring some much-needed insulation, seems to work pretty well. I get a little clogging of the outlet, but a pipe cleaner works for that. I guess my question is it worth it, efficiency-wise, to completely rebuild?


----------



## snl

cervus said:


> I had the same question. It's a shame the video illustrating replacement was disabled due to copyright on the ProVap website. Must be too easy to copy.


No, there was a song playing in the background and THAT was the issue!!
I’m stripping out the sound and reloading. Check back later.


----------



## rwmccor

snl said:


> For you "do it yourselfers," not trying to sell but help. I have the bowls and caps on my website if interested........


Page 21 post #416


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## rwmccor

rwmccor said:


> SNL,
> What size are the caps on your site that are for sale ??to fit a 11/4 coupling or 11/2 water pipe ?
> I'am thinking the 11/2 water pipe, as buying feet of pipe compared to couplings would more cost
> effective for provap ?


SNl,
Don't know if you seen this or not ??


----------



## laketrout

Here is a pic of the vaporizer i made , I used ideas from everyone here especially johno and came up with this version , its working great , i did go with 3/16 tube outlet and it blows the vapor into the hive better .This one is a 1 1/4'' coupler with the ims 101636 1 1/2 '' 250 watt band heater and the mypin TA4-RNR controller , the mo cap # MHSP fits perfectly with the this coupler but the next size bigger might be better for 1 1/2'' pipe .

The coupler I used was on the small size for this band heater it seems they must run different sizes as some have said there coupler fit good , I ended up swelling it out to fit . I'm going to try the 1 1/2'' pipe it fits the band heaters better for my next one .


----------



## cervus

snl said:


> No, there was a song playing in the background and THAT was the issue!!
> I’m stripping out the sound and reloading. Check back later.


Works fine now. Thanks! That's a huge band heater.


----------



## brushwoodnursery

laketrout said:


> Here is a pic of the vaporizer i made , I used ideas from everyone here especially johno and came up with this version , its working great , i did go with 3/16 tube outlet and it blows the vapor into the hive better .This one is a 1 1/4'' coupler with the ims 101636 1 1/2 '' 250 watt band heater and the mypin TA4-RNR controller , the mo cap # MHSP fits perfectly with the this coupler but the next size bigger might be better for 1 1/2'' pipe .
> 
> The coupler I used was on the small size for this band heater it seems they must run different sizes as some have said there coupler fit good , I ended up swelling it out to fit . I'm going to try the 1 1/2'' pipe it fits the band heaters better for my next one .
> 
> View attachment 37224


Just sent you a PM


----------



## johno

Laketrout , get some insulation around the heater and bowl you will be surprised how much quicker it gets up to temperature and also recovers quicker. yes the temperature controlled 1/1/2" vaporizer is certainly quicker and better than the cheapest vaporizer, it all depends on how many hives you are treating. For one or two the cheapest is adequate.
Johno


----------



## cervus

Anybody have a source for the 1 1/2" 250 watt heater? Looks like IMS has a minimum order, and I only need one or two. Group buy?


----------



## cervus

Found this one for $30 includes shipping. Is that the going price now? I'm not interested in the Chinese knockoffs, sounds like there is no truth in advertising there.

http://www.sustainablesupply.com/Tempco-Band-Heater-1-1-2-In-Dia-120V-Steel-NHL00136-C1133864


----------



## tnnewbe

Cervus:
Broaden your search for "Nozzle Band Heaters" which may help. The heater that I used is a nozzle band heater which works just fine. It's thicker than the unit that you see on OxaVap video. I think it is filled with a mica or mineral material where the band heater is not. Someone may correct me on this. The nozzle band heater is used on injection machines.
Ken


----------



## cervus

tnnewbe said:


> Cervus:
> Broaden your search for "Nozzle Band Heaters" which may help. The heater that I used is a nozzle band heater which works just fine. It's thicker than the unit that you see on OxaVap video. I think it is filled with a mica or mineral material where the band heater is not. Someone may correct me on this. The nozzle band heater is used on injection machines.
> Ken


Thanks. Looks like same search results as just "Band Heater". Plenty of 240 vac, very few 120 vac.


----------



## Biermann

Hello,

I ordered two of thus






on ebay for USD3.20 from China, have not arrived yet, will see what they are.

Description: 110V 300W 25mm x 30mm Metal Screw Fixing Flexible Mica Band Heater Silver LW

Cheers, Joerg


----------



## cervus

Biermann said:


> Hello,
> 
> I ordered two of thus
> View attachment 37238
> on ebay for USD3.20 from China, have not arrived yet, will see what they are.
> 
> Description: 110V 300W 25mm x 30mm Metal Screw Fixing Flexible Mica Band Heater Silver LW
> 
> Cheers, Joerg


Thanks. I ordered those awhile back. Looking for the 1.5" now to rebuild.


----------



## cervus

Some enterprising soul has been monitoring this thread...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/110V-250W-...876486?hash=item2a9d8ccb86:g:4T4AAOSwp7taZjuu


----------



## Biermann

Cervus,



> Thanks. I ordered those awhile back. Looking for the 1.5" now to rebuild.


Did they not work? Or why are you rebuilding?

Joerg


----------



## cervus

Biermann said:


> Cervus,
> 
> 
> 
> Did they not work? Or why are you rebuilding?
> 
> Joerg


They worked OK. Got some residue adhering to the connection screw inside the bowl, and the nozzle would plug up a bit. Not having the heat source down around the bottom of the pipe cap kind of hindered the operation I'm sure, as well as operator error. I'm going to test again with insulation and the cycle times outlined in this thread before I actually rebuild, now that the weather is cooperating. It was extremely windy when I tested the first time. If the simple one works better this time, I'll stick with it.


----------



## laketrout

cervus , did you call them direct I had know problem ordering 2 , only thing is they want to charge alot of shipping and handling , if you have your own ups account they will take off all of there charges and only bill you for the heater .


----------



## cervus

laketrout said:


> cervus , did you call them direct I had know problem ordering 2 , only thing is they want to charge alot of shipping and handling , if you have your own ups account they will take off all of there charges and only bill you for the heater .


I Emailed them, I'll see what they say. Don't have an account.


----------



## rwmccor

cervus said:


> Some enterprising soul has been monitoring this thread...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/110V-250W-...876486?hash=item2a9d8ccb86:g:4T4AAOSwp7taZjuu


looks like the same one they use on the provap, Cervus try this site https://www.oemheaters.com/category/611/band-heaters


----------



## cervus

rwmccor said:


> Cervus try this site https://www.oemheaters.com/category/611/band-heaters


Thanks. Looks like the price is pretty consistent across suppliers.


----------



## cervus

rwmccor said:


> Cervus try this site https://www.oemheaters.com/category/611/band-heaters


Thanks. Looks like the price is pretty consistent across suppliers.


----------



## Bush_84

My build is almost done. I’m still waiting for my thermocouples and caps. Otherwise it’s ready for use! My only question was about grounding. Heater has no ground nor does the controller. What does everybody ground to? Maybe check out my pics and make a suggestion?


----------



## Cjj

Looks like your tube is too close to the top


----------



## Bush_84

Cjj said:


> Looks like your tube is too close to the top


It was advised to put it 1.5” from bottom and to use a 2” tube. That’s what I did.


----------



## tnnewbe

Dan:
In one of the threads Johno said to run the ground to the screw at the bottom of the cup and that is what i did. Its important to ground that cup. I put the center of my tube 1.3" from the inside bottom of my cup (again from Johno experience) and it works fine. If you get it too low then you will get some liquid coming out of the tube when the OA starts to boil.
Ken


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## johno

Dan I would push the excess wire from the band heater into the box so that it comes from the heater into the box without any wires that could hook onto something and create a problem. The controller is plastic and requires no grounding only the metal should be grounded. Also remember to clean out any residue in the bowl from time to time, I am surprised as to how much residue can be left in bowl after some time and it slows down the vaporization quite a lot,
Johno


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## laketrout

Dan the ground comes from your power wire ,usally green just check your ground terminal on the plug and check the color wire and run it to the stud on your pot


----------



## Bush_84

Thanks guys. I know just enough to be dangerous but not the finer points. I’ll hook up the ground when my thermocouple gets here. They go in the same spot on the bowl it seems. 

I also just want to officially say thanks to all that have helped out in this thread. There is no way I would have been able to afford a provap. With a bit of reading and rereading (along with welding help of my brother in law) I have been able to build one of my own units for significantly cheaper. I’m pumped!


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## johno

Dan the end of the thermocouple goes directly onto the bottom of the bowl then a fender washer then a nut and this is tightened as hard as you can get it, then add 3 or 4 nuts to space the bowl off the bracket then under the bracket the ground is fixed under a washer a lock washer then the last nut.
Johno


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## Bush_84

johno said:


> Dan the end of the thermocouple goes directly onto the bottom of the bowl then a fender washer then a nut and this is tightened as hard as you can get it, then add 3 or 4 nuts to space the bowl off the bracket then under the bracket the ground is fixed under a washer a lock washer then the last nut.
> Johno


Got it. Thanks!


----------



## Bush_84

So I’m hoping this is an easy fix. I got my unit all put together today after my thermocouple arrived. It all works except for the controller it seems. The heat never shuts off. It just keeps getting hotter and hotter. I went through the settings and it’s set for 250c. I don’t understand all of the settings but I couldn’t find any info to help. I can lower the temp by adding something to the bowl but it then just keeps going up. At 250 the out1 light turns off and I hear an audible click. I take it to mean that it’s supposed to shut off the heater but it doesn’t. Did I wire something wrong?

*goes back to digging*

Edit-after rereading the wiring more than once I think I put the second wire from the band heater on post three (going by memory as it’s out in my workshop...it’s real cold today I’ll check later lol). I’m hoping that’s all it is. I’ll report back later.


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## Biermann

Hi MB,

I hope you did not, by mistake, put AC on the thermocouple. You can check with ohm'ing it, if no resistance, it probably is 'cooked'. More likely is as you say you have something wired wrong, it is like a phone number or email address, one digit or letter wrong and you in the wrong lane.

Read from #27 ( i believe) down for the wiring.

Good luck!

Joerg


----------



## johno

Bush_84, the black wire from your power goes to #1, the white wire to #2 #2 and #3 are joined together with a short piece of wire. The first conductor from your heater goes to # 1 with the black wire and the second conductor from your heater goes to #4. So take that heater wire off # 3 and put it onto #4.
Johno


----------



## Bush_84

johno said:


> Bush_84, the black wire from your power goes to #1, the white wire to #2 #2 and #3 are joined together with a short piece of wire. The first conductor from your heater goes to # 1 with the black wire and the second conductor from your heater goes to #4. So take that heater wire off # 3 and put it onto #4.
> Johno


I was tinkering around this afternoon. I did exactly as Johno said. I plug this directly into an outlet in my workshop. Switching the wire didn’t seem to help at first. So I started tinkering with the temperature setting. I started lowering the setting, it was originally set to 250c. I noticed that as I lowered the temp the more accurate it became. Unfortunately I ran out of time before I could figure it out. I noticed that if I set it to anything under 200 c it wouldn’t get anywhere close to hot enough and would be completely accurate. 220-230 seemed to warm up slightly past its set temp but not much. Once it overshot and I ran a cap full of water through the bowl it seemed to regulate better. 240-250 would always overshoot significantly. I couldn’t tinker past that. I’m wondering if when initially heating if it just overshoots and if it will come back to it’s set temp with time and it if will better regulate after that. Again I had to come in before I could tinker. 

I tried to read up on settings but I’m afraid it all looked like Greek to me. I hadn’t really changed anything from factory other than the set temperature. I can tell you it’s set to pid and is set to use a type k thermocouple (which is what I have). Is there an absolute high temp I shouldn’t let it get past as I tinker? Is there a setting that will help me tighten control a bit? Also is there a max temp that I shouldn’t administer oa?

If at the end of the day I just have to deal with it I can. Once it reaches its operating temp I’d just treat and in doing so lower the temp. Then treat the next hive when it gets back to operating temp.

Edit-correction I did auto tune a couple of times as I read that helps. It did seem to help but I believe I did that at lower temp settings. I may have to try it again when it’s set at a higher temp.


----------



## johno

If you set the temp to 230C or 450F then allow the 21/2 minutes to heat up when the temp hits the set point it switches off the heater but the temp can climb up maybe to 480F but that does not matter load your cap with OA and treat, as soon as the OA hits the bowl the temp drops down into the 300,s when the temp comes up over the 400 mark the job is done move onto the next hive and load the OA and as you go along if you stop for a while the temp might again go high but it does not matter because once you load the latent heat required to sublimate will drag the temp down again. If you set the temp low you will find you start to take much longer to do the treatments.
Johno


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## Bush_84

I can deal with overshooting as long as I know it won’t hurt my bees. My temp doesn’t stop around 480 if I set it to 450. It stops at nearly 600 and it’s not a slow rise. I haven’t timed it or anything. This is why I’m curious about a max temp. I’m not sure if it’s because I bought one of the spendy band heaters that’s cranking out crazy heat or if it’s a setting in my pid that’s off. 



johno said:


> If you set the temp to 230C or 450F then allow the 21/2 minutes to heat up when the temp hits the set point it switches off the heater but the temp can climb up maybe to 480F but that does not matter load your cap with OA and treat, as soon as the OA hits the bowl the temp drops down into the 300,s when the temp comes up over the 400 mark the job is done move onto the next hive and load the OA and as you go along if you stop for a while the temp might again go high but it does not matter because once you load the latent heat required to sublimate will drag the temp down again. If you set the temp low you will find you start to take much longer to do the treatments.
> Johno


----------



## laketrout

I have mine set to shut off at 400 F and at that point I hear the click for shutting off it does continue climb at a slower rate when it hits 436 I put a cap on and treat , that brings the temp back down around 375 and I start over , I never waited to see how hi it would climb but it seems to bottom out around 450 . and stops climbing .


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## Kcnc1

Thank you Johno

I did my first OAV today using my new vaporizer. All done in about a minute. (After the 5 min warm up). This is going to save me so much time. The cheap wand I used to have took me about 20 minutes a hive. 

I really appreciate you sharing this idea and how tos. I had fun this winter learning about brazing and welding.


----------



## Bush_84

I also would like to again thank johno and everybody else who has contributed/helped out in this thread. My vaporizer works great. I haven’t tested it with oa as of yet. Just water. I don’t have the protective equipment yet and not in a time of year to treat.


----------



## Kcnc1

Maybe not in MN, but it was 55 yesterday in NC. They are broodless and so it was perfect timing


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## Bush_84

I keep my hives indoors in the winter. Not sure I should be vaporizing indoors. I’ll probably treat in spring (three treatments).


----------



## Kcnc1

In a garage? Or in your house? If it’s your house you have one patient wife


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## Bush_84

It’s a small garden shed dedicated to this purpose, but it’s falling apart and not worth repairing. Planning on building a new setup this spring/summer.


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## johno

I have often treated my observation hive which is inside the house in my den, I wear a paper particulate mask and block off all the ventilation holes in the OH with cotton balls then vaporize through a hole in the side. As the hive entrance is outside there is very little vapor that manages to escape inside the room. so I think if you wear a mask in the shed you should not have a problem I would also cover my eyes as well.
Johno


----------



## little_john

Having now conducted trials with my first prototype, I can confirm much of what Johno has labouriously discovered the hard way: the main issue for myself not being achieving the initial set-point temperature, but the speed of recovery of it after sublimation has occurred.

So - although my first effort does work 'after a fashion' (recovery time being far too slow) - it's now time to make a few changes, mainly by reducing the volume of the reaction vessel, and beefing-up the heater wattage.

A quick check with the commercial units reveals that the Sublimox has a power draw of 300W, and the ProVap/OxaVap of 250W. That tells me these are the sorts of wattages which work well without the presence of insulation (which can almost double the 'effective wattage' of the band heater). However, reading through this thread again reveals that the 25x30 110V 300W band heater being sold on Ebay, in practice has a resistance of around 140R, which equates to 86W - not even close ... and is a blatant case of mis-selling.

So - a request - does anyone know of a source of genuine 300W band heaters in the smaller diameters (25 - 35mm) ? If not, I'll just have to fit 2x 120W's which will require a taller reaction vessel of course, but I'll just have to live with that. 
LJ


----------



## johno

Hi Danny, I doubt you will find any 25mm band heaters that will be in the 250-300 watt range as there is not enough area. However there are may available in the 11/2" - 38mm ID area that really do a good job. I purchased some in the USA from the IMScompany.com. The use of the Chinese heater was a starting point, cheap and nasty but good if you have a few hives as a treatment every 11/2 to 2 minutes is still better than the pan type of vaporizer and you still do not cook any bees. Band heaters are generally used in the injection moulding industry our size are generally called nozzle heaters so I am sure if you google in this area you should find something in the UK. Some come up on Amazon and Ebay from time to time but since we started this thread they disappear very quickly.
Johno


----------



## Bush_84

I bought one from ims. It is a bit more expensive but makes up for it in quality. My unit heats up fast and recovery is amazing.


----------



## little_john

Hi Guys - yes, you're spot on - both about IMS, and about useful size heaters disappearing fast from Ebay listings. Take a look at Ebay #183125899491 - they're even advertising these for beekeeping use !

Re: IMS - yes, they make *exactly* what I want (thanks): Ebay #132498690500 shows an example. Pity about the price, but it's fair money for a quality item.
LJ


----------



## Biermann

Timely post! I ordered two 300 watt, 25mm x 30mm from China in December, but they got lost. I got credited, but was to re-order with courier from Hong Kong, the same type, but it seems I wast my money.

little_john @ your numbers don't show any product at ebay.

Thinking about it, do the Chinese heaters belong on 220V? Than the ohm reading would work for 280 watt, or not?

Bush_84 @ would you have a part number?

Thanks,

Joerg


----------



## Bush_84

https://www.imscompany.com/product/134619

That’s the one I bought. Shipping cost I believe was outrageous. I believe it was more than the price of the unit but don’t quote me on that. Would order again if I was starting over.


----------



## johno

I have made a vaporizer using 2 of the Chinese heaters, temperature controlled and it worked quite well. I then went to the 250 watt x 11/2" heater mostly because it would use a larger Mocap plug which had a hollow large enough to take at least 3 grams of OA. Danny what are you using to load the oa into the chamber? I suspect if you would turn some tapered wooden plugs with large hollows in the inside it would work.
Johno


----------



## little_john

Biermann said:


> little_john @ your numbers don't show any product at ebay.
> 
> Thinking about it, do the Chinese heaters belong on 220V? Than the ohm reading would work for 280 watt, or not?


Err ... not.

You'd need a 205V supply, from which would be pulled 1.46A, giving you 300W at that voltage. But on this side of the pond, the mains electricity supply is 220-240V, and equipment must always be capable of tolerating such a variation. So - worst-case here would be subjecting a 140R band heater to a 240V supply. The current draw would be 1.71A, generating 411W. 

BUT - as Johno commented, the real issue is the amount of contact area any band heater provides - which is why the IMS 250W heater I linked to is 1.25" x *2 inches* - as it really does need that length in order to provide sufficient contact area.

Sorry the other link isn't showing for you - I've attached a screen-grab:

LJ


----------



## Biermann

Okay LJ, lets not fight about a few volts, my power measures 208VAC between to lines.

I will be trying this 








part I found at my hardware store. It will get a 1/4" copper tube welded in and would be ideal for a 30mm x 30mm band heater. We will machine alu plugs with a reset for the OA dose and see how it goes.

Joerg


----------



## little_john

..


----------



## Biermann

Question for the alu plug, does anyone use a O-ring to seal the plug and can one get thus heat resistant?


----------



## johno

Biermann, take a look at the Mocap site then check out their silicone tapered plugs you can select some that will allow the small end to fit into the top of your vaporizer. These plugs have hollows on the inside and depending on the size of your combustion chamber can take the OA charge if too small they will need to be ground out so as to take enough OA, As I mentioned you might get away using wooden plugs but you need to seal the system well or else so much will leak through the top that it will not be efficient. As for the heaters I would not use any higher voltage on them than the specified voltage as they will burn out if you do so. The other problem with increasing the wattage of the heaters is the fact that the Mypin controller contact rating is only 3 amps so the higher you load the contacts the lower their service life would be. The best model I have at this moment is built around a 11/4" copper coupling with a 3/16" outlet 13/8" from the bottom which has a heater from IMS which is 250 W x 120/240V which can be configured for either voltage also controlled by a mypin controller. Treats 3 grams in about 30 seconds so I run about 1 hive a minute in my yards.
Johno


----------



## little_john

This talk of aluminium plugs has spawned an idea ...

If an aluminium plug was machined to fit the bottom of a copper tube (with a MoCap rubber bung being used at the other end), then the aluminium plug could be drilled and tapped to take a diesel glow-plug, as used in many DIY 'wand' designs - to replace the Band Heater. This would result in the creation of an 'inverter-free' battery-powered portable vapouriser for those who work in out-apiaries, whilst still retaining the same speed, efficiency and general ease of use of the Band heater design.

LJ


----------



## allniter

LITTLE--JOHN 

300 WATT heater only draws 3,3 amps U can run it off a cheap inverter off a battery 
glow plug will cost 10-12 bucks plus making the plug holder


----------



## little_john

Ok - thanks. Another 'bright idea' bites the dust ...
LJ


----------



## johno

I think that if you used a 12 volt glow plug into an aluminium plug at the bottom of a 1" piece of pipe with a 3/16" outlet you will still make a better vaporizer than the pan type. This would be about equal to the 300 watt Chinese heater which is in fact only about 100 watts and would still treat hives at about 11/2 minutes each after the initial heating up period with no cooked bees. However because of the heavy cables required for 12 volt use and the fact that you are lugging around a heavy battery I would personally stick with the 110 or 220 volt heaters and pay the extra $40 for an inverter which you could still use if you go the route of the 250 watt temp controlled device.
Johno


----------



## johno

For useful information I purchased 2 x 11/2" ID x 11/2" W 275 Watt 120 Volt band heaters from a company called " Plastic Process Equipment Inc " part # MX15006 For $40.14 price was $10.45 each and the rest UPS shipping. If you check out their site they are also available in 240 Volts.
Johno


----------



## Biermann

One question: were to drill the hole to enter the hive opposite to the entrance, low in B1 or as high in B2 as possible? Reason I ask: after vaporizing, crystals will form again, correct? So if introduced very low, they may fall on the bottom board and be useless or not?

Thanks for your help, Joerg


----------



## johno

Biermann, I make my 1/4" hole at the top of the brood nest, so it is at the top of the box in the frame rest area between the 2 center frames angling up at about 30 degrees so that the outlet comes out above the frames, I have found better dissipation of the vapor when treated from above.
Johno


----------



## little_john

After a very unpleasant winter, Spring has finally arrived in Britain, and I was able to whiz around the apiary after flying finished for the day yesterday - and I've never dosed OA before quite so quickly !

As mentioned earlier, I lashed-up a VOA applicator using a 150W Band Heater I already had from an abandoned project, which I fitted to a 45mm steel tube, capped-off with a Mocap hollow bung. By insulating with glass rope, covered with a thin layer of fire cement to hold it in place I was able to get the sequence time down to 90 seconds. Not bad at all for a Mk.I lash-up.

So - now onto the Mk.II - pity I can't easily source stock 1.5" copper tube over here - but I've found some 38mm brass tube in the shed I can now work with. Received another PID controller last week, and yesterday a 40x55mm 200W Band Heater arrived, which on testing turns out to be 260-310W, within the range 220-240V - which I'd say is about perfect. Ebay #271915596269 if anyone's tempted.

Life is good.
LJ


----------



## Biermann

Hello LJ,

I see you still get rain, but is has warmed up. My buddy in Kirton is very frustrated with the weather this year and the problem to make decisions when to do what in the bee yard.

Your ebay # does not yield a product, neither UK, US or CAN ebay. Would you have a model? Do you feel the PID controller is a 'must have' or 'nice to have' rather using a timer set to say your researched 90 seconds?

My Chinese band heaters ordered in December showed up yesterday and I am back to try to make them work with 1" copper tube, while I still would like to find a heater to make my 'pipe' in #501 'electrificated', where I use a propane torch now with success. 

Cheers, Joerg


----------



## little_john

Hi Joerg - would that be Kirton in Lincolnshire ? If so, then we're close neighbours - only a few miles apart - extraordinary.

Re: the Ebay item number not working - I've experienced this myself when looking at US-listed items - and have got around the problem (which I assume is some kind of 'regional censor') by dialling-up the 'home' Ebay (in my case ebay.co.uk) , and then putting the 'US' number into the Ebay search field. So far that's always worked. But - I'm attaching a screen-grab of the listing to help track down the seller. Or maybe just Google for: "Ebay Metal Screw Fixing Tail Outlet Flexible Mica Band Heater 40 x 55mm AC220V 200W" and see what comes up ? I do hope they all have a resistance of around 186 Ohms, else there'll be egg on my face ...

PID controllers ? Well, I was sceptical about the need for these and had planned to make a simple on/off controller using an Arduino Nano or similar - but when you can buy an off-the-shelf turn-key controller for 6 pounds sterling (~ US$8 ?) - Ebay #192410219648 - why bother ? It's arguably over-sophisticated for this application, but the LED displays are brilliant to have, in that you can watch the temperature rise until the kit is ready, then watch again as it drops, and then recovers - ready then to move onto the next hive. No need to guess anymore, and no wasted time. So - if only for the display read-out itself, I'd say it's a toy well-worth having. And - as these are mains-driven, there's even then no need to make a power supply for a home-brew controller. LOL
'best
LJ


----------



## Biermann

Hi LJ,

yes, it is Kirton by Boston. Interesting. My friend just started two years ago with keeping bees, but he is the most meticulous person I know. I am planned to visit him at the end of this month, but may have to reschedule because I will not have my seeding done in time. We still have snow on our fields and -10°C at the moment. The next week sounds to bring melting weather and than we have to deal with all the water and flooding. Strongest winter I have seen in my 37 years in this area.

Thanks for your info again. I will see how I get this done.

Joerg


----------



## cata_rebel

johno said:


> NAC89, thanks now I understand, you have welded an end cap to the coupling. I was wondering if it was something like that bullet fitting that one of the guys used. I am still looking for an easier way to do this but finding the parts is not so easy.
> Johno


Supply house .com has it abut $8 I’m plumber and they have a lot of staff there I don’t know about shipping under $100 
Usually I order a lot of the time and over $100 is it free shipping
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Sioux-C...ed-End-Type-L-Copper-Stub-Out-Bullet-8-Length


----------



## Dogman2000

Johno. Because of my outer cover depth , so to vaporize without lifting the outer cover.. how about making the hole in the top of the bottom brood box. Would this work ok? Marv


----------



## johno

Dogman it will work fine from the top of the lower box, It will probably work fine from the bottom but you just seem to get more leakage especially if you have screened bottoms
Johno


----------



## Dogman2000

Johno Thanks. Made a vaporizer out of 1 inch copper just have to wrap it yet in insulation. Acquired a piece of 1 1/4 inch copper maybe make one up with that with a aluminum bottom plug and try and get a 1 3/8 band heater. Maybe over kill but used a solid state relay to switch the load, in case heater shorts out maybe save the contacts in the controller. Still so cold here and freezing rain and snow tonight. So sick of this late spring. Oh well not June yet. Looo.


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## johno

Dogman pity you can't get hold of some 11/2" copper pipe as 11/2" 250 watt band heaters are easy and cheap to get. If I had a lathe available the aluminum plug for the bottom would be the way to go. I went against convention and wired the neutral through the controller contacts as any fault in the heater would probably be a ground fault and so the resulting surge would not damage the contacts. The important thing about the 3/16" outlet is that it must be at least 11/4" above the bottom or you tend to get unsublimated crystals en trained in the vapor.
Johno


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## Cjj

Johno I cut my 1/4 thick aluminum out with a band saw and a hacksaw then drilled a hole in the center, use that drill and then a bench grinder till I got the correct size then I tapped that center hole and used it to mount the bowl, works pretty good


----------



## snl

Dogman2000 said:


> how about making the hole in the top of the bottom brood box. Would this work ok? Marv


I wouldn’t. Reason, you could be shooting the vapor directly into burr comb rather than throughout the hive.


----------



## johno

I make a 1/4" hole in the top of the box above the frame rests and drill upwards at an angle of about 30 degrees, the hole is in the center at the back of the box so when the 3/16' outlet is inserted it is between the center frames angling upwards so that the vapor comes out between the upper and lower frames, When I remove the 1/4" dowel plug I insert a piece of 3/16" pipe or sometimes use a Phillips screwdriver to clear any propolis that might be around the hole before inserting the vaporizer nozzle into it and when the loaded cap is fitted and activated I let the vaporizer just hang out of the hole while I prepare the next hive. Some of the beekeepers in my area using this system have complained that their nozzle of their vaporizer often blocks up and when questioned I find that they just remove the plug and insert the nozzle straight into the hole and end up plugging the 3/16" nozzle with propolis, and when I explain how to sort that out they no longer have problems. I have found during tests that the higher the vapor input the better the coverage. The problem is the amount of leakage there is in a hive the vapor seems to find its way out of all the cracks and spaces and the vapor tends to settle downwards and dissipate through the screened bottom boards and whatever you put in under the screen is not air tight so in my opinion solid bottoms are better for treatments although do not help to see mite drops so there might be room to develop a better bottom board system. If you completely seal abox so air does not escape and give it a treatment you would be surprised how long the vapor remains in that box before dissipating and leaving a layer of white crystals on the floor.
Johno


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## Dogman2000

Johno. Maybe i will try and swap the 1 1/4 for a 1 1/2 piece of copper.. guess you can spread the 1 1/2 band heater enough to go around the copper pipe..my plumber friend just gave me the copper.. kind of like the ideal of making the 1/4 hole in the top of the bottom brood box.. I run mostly screened bottom boards with a pull out tray, most of the time leave it closed unless a long hot spell with the bees hanging outside a lot, then maybe just half out..


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## johno

Dogman you should have no problem getting the 11/2" band heater over the pipe, you may have to fiddle the clamping screw. I also tend to leave my screened bottom boards closed off year round as they seem to cause more problems than good, I keep my hives on stands about 12" above the ground and have had many young queens return from mating flights and set up house under the screen which is a pain. 
Johno


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## crofter

By grinding the threads off the middle of the cinching screw you can expand the band heater to fit on a larger dia. bowl. I put two bands on, went to a larger diameter and brought the discharge pipe out in such a fashion that it had much more contact with the bowl to reduce the tendency to crystallize in the pipe on the first one I made. The larger diameter and higher discharge port kept the liquid stage from being discharged with the larger dose I felt was an advantage for larger colonies.

Having two bands with the top one controlled with a common light dimmer switch gives me the ability to adjust heat imput to match my cycle time of recharging and moving to the next box.


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## johno

Hi Crofter, I also made a 1" model with the 3/16" outlet bent like the one you made and it worked fine but no difference to the short straight outlet coming out closer to the top. It required more work to do that and I worried about the difficulty of clearing the tube if a blockage occurred. However I exclusively use a 250 to 275 watt temperature controlled model now as it is much quicker and easier to use also the mocap tops need no modification and can easily take 3 grams of OA. I did make a 2 band heater temperature controlled unit on 1" pipe in the early days and used it for quite a while before making the bigger one. What time did you get your treatments down to with the aid of the dimmer.
Johno


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## crofter

Something just over 30 seconds but that was hard on my caps so I backed down to where boiloff was about 45 seconds. If I could get the silicone caps you speak of (without jumping through too many hoops), I would. Yes, what I made is way too involved unless you are a confirmed tinker! 

I have thought about combining this basic band heater design with one of the cylindrical "cartridge" heaters that would either center in the discharge tube or be in hard contact with the bottom of the snout. I have not played with them but I see they are used for the cold weather engine heater in my Toyota 4X4. It is in a dry well in the block rather than immersion in the coolant.


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## johno

Frank if you look at the actual amount of tube sticking out front of your vaporizer if you had one coming out straight out it could still protrude the same amount and be a good deal shorter so does not really have a problem blocking up. The way you have yours set up is similar to the provap which would be an advantage if you are treating through the hive entrance, however by treating from the rear of the hive and having the outlet closer to the top I find it easier just to hang the vaporizer in the hole and then you are hands free for 30 seconds to do other things. By the way how are you doing with your Dexters, do you keep a bull if so short legged or long legged. Had a bunch of them in the RSA but sold them all when I started to get ready to jump ship, couldn't take them with me in a 30ft sailboat.
Johno


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## crofter

I have insulation and wrapping that is close to an inch thick on some hives, so wanted to be able to reach through to the hole in the back of hive body. I have done 12 back to back and the pipe stays clear enough it is not a problem. The first edition with larger dia. nozzle and straight out would plug. Bigger is not always better.

I did artificial insemination on my long legged dexter cows, so did not use any dwarf gene bulls. Eventually bred up to red angus. The neighbors bull was just so willing and accommodating Also I did not have to keep refilling him with liquid nitrogen!


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## farmer0298

would a stainless tube instead of copper work?


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## snl

farmer0298 said:


> would a stainless tube instead of copper work?


I’ve used it on the ProVap.


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## crofter

farmer0298 said:


> would a stainless tube instead of copper work?


Stainless has only a fraction of the heat transfer rate compared to copper and is more difficult to weld to.


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## farmer0298

ok thanks. having a friend machine me some parts and he asked if stainless would work. Guess ill just have him make me an aluminum plug for the bottom that will work with the copper pipe and have him thread the holes for temp sensors and a hole for a bolt in the bottom to attach it to a frame.


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## Biermann

Hello farmer,

Frank was right, but did not have all the info. I had to read your question and answers over a couple of times to make sense out of it all, because you change the arithmetic (by my view).

For the plug, stainless is okay, I suggest, if tightly machined, it will have less wear than the aluminum plug. I have and aluminum plug and have difficulty getting it out of the pot sometimes and one can see work marks on it, SS would probably be better and here, a bad conductor is better, because you will not have the heat loss once turned up to drop the OA in to the heating chamber. The bottom (now bottom, top when heated-up) should be copper, but your machine guy should be able to tig the copper bottom to the pipe.

I would keep anything that could conduct heat away from the 'burning chamber' away from the copper (burning chamber and exhaust pipe) as much as possible and attach any handle to the outside of the band heater with SS material (bad conductor).

Cheers, more from others, I assume, Joerg


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## farmer0298

anyone got a "best" parts list to make one of these? temp comtroller, band heater, ETC.


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## farmer0298

Thoughts on making the whole thing from 2"round aluminum round stock and putting a band heater around it?


----------



## johno

Farmer are you trying to find the most difficult way to make this simple thing because there can be even more difficult ways than turning the whole thing out of aluminum stock, Why not just use a 11/4" copper coupling as a starting point. You can either braze or silver solder a piece of copper onto the bottom by putting the piece of flat onto a brick, then your coupling on top heat the thing from the outside bottom and run your silver solder around on the inside. Solder the 2" piece of 3/16" pipe onto a 3/16" hole at least 11/4" from the bottom. A 11/2" band heater from the company I listed a short while ago(plastic process equipment) is cheap and fits well. A mypin TA-4 RNR temp controller can be found at Amazon and a type K thermocouple for multimeters can also be found on amazon. The thermocouple ends are just small twisted wire so can be bolted to the bottom of the hot tube between the bottom and a stainless fender washer. You could turn a aluminum plug and shrink the coupling onto if you wish. The rest of the story has been told many times if you read the posts.
Johno


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## farmer0298

Ok I was jus brainstorming to much. Is 1 1/4" better than 1 1/2"? Also are the tapered silicone plugs that u were using earlier holding up well?


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## little_john

My Mk.I was made from a circa. 1 & 3/4" steel tube, as I wanted to use an existing band heater of that size - and with a 10mm diameter exit pipe (yes - which tends to get blocked). Temperature *does *drop (dramatically, from 240C to 180C), regardless of the pipe being steel. Many lessons have been learned the hard way. 

Had planned to use thick-walled stainless for the Mk.II, as I find it a breeze to weld - but now I won't. I'd much prefer to use copper, but it looks like I'll have to settle for brass, which is nowhere near as good. But - if I can get the procedure time down to sub- 1 minute, I'll be happy.

Key requirements are: large wattage band heater; tube with high thermal conductivity; and small diameter exit pipe - all of which Johno figured out many posts ago ...
LJ


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## johno

Farmer the reason that I use a 11/4" copper coupling is that the OD of the coupling is very close to 11/2" and if a piece of flat is welded to the bottom of the coupling it is just about the right length.
I cannot get 11/2" copper pipe locally and my pipe cutters max at 1" so I used what I could find locally. For the bottom flat piece I cut a piece of 1" pipe 11/2" long cut a slit in it lengthwise heated it up and flattened it. I would love to be back at the business I once part owned where I had all the production and tool room machinery at my disposal but alas that cannot be so I have to make things as simple as possible with the limited equipment I have. These things could be made commercially if one had a decent workshop but at my age I do not want to go there.
Johno


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## farmer0298

Same thing here. I dont have access to a lathe but i got friends that are machinist so i think i will have them them turn me an aluminum piece for the bottom and press fit the copper coupling onto the aluminum bottom. Going to order parts today so i can have it all here when he gets time to machine parts for me. So the MOCAP plugs are holding up ok? or should i try to go a different route?


----------



## farmer0298

Also you said to get the thermocouple that goes to a multimeter....is this the ones with 2 prongs on one end that i will have to cut off? would the K thermocouple with the threader end work?


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## crofter

I dont know what the attraction is to the aluminum/ copper pressed together idea. Dissimilar metals in an acid environment and having greatly different thermal expansion rates.

I much prefer Johnos method of pounding out a slug of the same material as the sides and silver brazing it in. Most of the so called silver solders require a flux; much, much cheaper and self fluxing is Sil Fos or Sil Phos alloy rods which can be applied with a common hardware store propane or Mapp torch (which you should have anyways for lighting your smoker). 

If you look at my last photos you can see both a vertical side joint and the bottom circumference joint, plus the outlet pipe are all done with sil fos. Any welding supply outlet will stock this.


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## farmer0298

I was just going off of how the provap110 was made. It has the aluminum piece at the bottom. Could i use a 1 1/4" copper cap and a short piece of pipe and solder that together rather that using the aluminum piece? Just trying to get my ideas together before i start building it.


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## crofter

I have not examined the pro vap to see what combinations of material they use and whether the junction of dissimilar metals is effectively a seal or merely a heat transfer mechanical attachment.

Common soft solder melting temperature is close to, or exceeded by the peak temperatures which will be reached; Brazing alloys will have a melting point 4 or 5 hundred deg. F. higher.


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## farmer0298

I have the mypin temp comtroller in my cart but im having trouble finding which thermocoupler to get.....any ideas?


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## crofter

Johno has gone through the electrical hookups in detail in his posts on this thread, including thermocouple spec.


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## laketrout

Problem with a copper cap and pipe is , you want the band heater down flush with the bottom of the vessel , if you use a cap the band heater won't fit against the surface of the pipe , you will have a gap and pour heat transfer , not a good idea


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## farmer0298

I'm going to use an aluminum piece at the bottom machined down to the size of the 1 1/4" coupling so nothing will be sticking out. Everything will be flush. Gonna try to copy the provap one.


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## laketrout

I ended up going with regular 1 1/2 '' copper pipe the 1 1/2 band heater I got was loose on the 1 1/4 coupler but nice and tight on the regular copper pipe .


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## farmer0298

I ordered my band heaters today. I'll wait til they come in to decide which to go with.


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## KenNashua

What do you think about MX15013? 300W 2 x 11/2" ID x 2" ?


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## johno

Hi Ken, it depends on what you are using for the copper sublimation chamber, I used a 11/4" copper pipe coupling which has a set length so the MX15006 with a width of 1.5" fitted for the length of the coupling and was still 275 watts whereas the MX15013 would be too long. However if you are going to use a piece of 11/2" cut copper pipe you would be OK.
Johno


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## fatoz

crofter said:


> I dont know what the attraction is to the aluminum/ copper pressed together idea. Dissimilar metals in an acid environment and having greatly different thermal expansion rates.
> 
> I much prefer Johnos method of pounding out a slug of the same material as the sides and silver brazing it in. Most of the so called silver solders require a flux; much, much cheaper and self fluxing is Sil Fos or Sil Phos alloy rods which can be applied with a common hardware store propane or Mapp torch (which you should have anyways for lighting your smoker).
> 
> If you look at my last photos you can see both a vertical side joint and the bottom circumference joint, plus the outlet pipe are all done with sil fos. Any welding supply outlet will stock this.


First off I want to thank Johnos for getting us all started with this vaporizer. I built mine last fall and it worked great. I originally used the cheapest method using 80W band heaters (claimed to be 300W though) but had a lot of trouble with holding the cap etc. 

Earlier this year I built a better one with 140W 40mmX35mm band heater 110V, MOCAP 1.306/1.622 Silicone Plug, 1-1/4 Copper Fitting (from Lowes), 1-1/2 Aluminum rod, and 3/8 copper tubing (bought from ACE). I did not use any brazing for the record. Instead, I used a little bit Hi-Temp silicone (Lowes). 

I would recommend hooking up the band heater and heating the copper fitting for 3-4 minutes or so. After it expanded slightly, let it cool and take your measurement for the aluminum plug (did not experience any expansion issues however, experienced problems in my previous build when didn't heat the fitting first). I used my table saw and table saw sled to *slowly *trim the aluminum rod. Blade seemed fine after all. You may want to taper the plug a little on concrete so that it'd slide easily and force it in (left mine slightly larger). You may want to use some hi-temp silicone or teflon tape around the plug, and two small screws to keep it in place. I used a little bit of the sealant around the tubing as well. 

I did not use heat controller but temps seems to go as high as 400C when measured empty. Vaporized in less than 30 sec and recovery was very fast (used thermal wrap). Got good results with mite kills. 

Hope it helps. 


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/40m...938.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.40694c4di5ZWNf (110V not listed now but you may request from them)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SW121T2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01HUBIJHW/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.lowes.com/pd/IMPERIAL-2...MI7I-StsKK2wIVwkSGCh185QE5EAQYASABEgIBqfD_BwE
https://www.ebay.com/itm/BLACK-2-x-...LASTIC-TIES-/181933411597?hash=item2a5c138d0d


----------



## Gary_Nc

How did you attach the outlet tube to the 1-1/4 copper fitting? with just the sealant? do you have a pic?


----------



## fatoz

Gary_Nc said:


> How did you attach the outlet tube to the 1-1/4 copper fitting? with just the sealant? do you have a pic?


I drilled the hole 1" below the top. Though it was fairly tight fit, I did use some sealant. Note that I bent both ends of the band heater to hold the outlet then tightened screw. It's pretty solid.

Did not experience any leaks when vaporized. Pics included. Let me know if you have any questions.


----------



## fatoz

fatoz said:


> First off I want to thank Johnos for getting us all started with this vaporizer. I built mine last fall and it worked great. I originally used the cheapest method using 80W band heaters (claimed to be 300W though) but had a lot of trouble with holding the cap etc.
> 
> Earlier this year I built a better one with 140W 40mmX35mm band heater 110V, MOCAP 1.306/1.622 Silicone Plug, 1-1/4 Copper Fitting (from Lowes), 1-1/2 Aluminum rod, and 3/8 copper tubing (bought from ACE). I did not use any brazing for the record. Instead, I used a little bit Hi-Temp silicone (Lowes).
> 
> I would recommend hooking up the band heater and heating the copper fitting for 3-4 minutes or so. After it expanded slightly, let it cool and take your measurement for the aluminum plug (did not experience any expansion issues however, experienced problems in my previous build when didn't heat the fitting first). I used my table saw and table saw sled to *slowly *trim the aluminum rod. Blade seemed fine after all. You may want to taper the plug a little on concrete so that it'd slide easily and force it in (left mine slightly larger). You may want to use some hi-temp silicone or teflon tape around the plug, and two small screws to keep it in place. I used a little bit of the sealant around the tubing as well.
> 
> I did not use heat controller but temps seems to go as high as 400C when measured empty. Vaporized in less than 30 sec and recovery was very fast (used thermal wrap). Got good results with mite kills.
> 
> Hope it helps.
> 
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/40m...938.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.40694c4di5ZWNf (110V not listed now but you may request from them)
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SW121T2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01HUBIJHW/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> https://www.lowes.com/pd/IMPERIAL-2...MI7I-StsKK2wIVwkSGCh185QE5EAQYASABEgIBqfD_BwE
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/BLACK-2-x-...LASTIC-TIES-/181933411597?hash=item2a5c138d0d


Correction: I used 3/16 copper tubing as recommended not 3/8.


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## Gary_Nc

Thank you for your reply and pics! They clear up my confusion


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## nallen9

Is there a 40amp sold state relay and what do you guys think of this heat bandhttps://m.grainger.com/mobile/product/TEMPCO-Band-Heater-2VXV8?breadcrumbCatId=18749&fc=MWP2IDP2PCP


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## nallen9

Do you think these would work 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/SINKOLO...per-Shot-Glasses-Set-of-2-SHB03-S2C/301435983


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## Biermann

Hello fatoz (and others),

it is amazing how this post developed and it shows how valuable a forum can be.

Anyway, why do all (or most) tubing come out on the top, then go down and off in to the hive, why not straight from the top in to the hive? My thought: the shorter the pipe, the less heat loss.

Joerg


----------



## crofter

The sides and bottom of the container is where the heat is. I deliberately maximized side contact so the discharge tube picked up more heat for less recrystallizing / blocking of OA. Also the whole apparatus hangs naturally on the hive with the discharge tube as the pivot when you flip it over to dump the powder from the cap into the bottom of the heater; leaves your hands free to load up the next measuring capful.


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## laketrout

also the design lends itself to treating through the bottom board , if it came out the top you wouldn't be able to get the stem in the entrance if your bottom board like most stick out to far .


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## johno

The European vaporizers have the tube coming out high and bending down the sides before going outwards precisely because they intended the device to treat through the entrance, that is fine anyone can do that however there is much more work involved when treating through the entrance at the front of the hive and it is much more advantageous treating from the back of the hive through a small hole. It is even more advantageous treating higher up above the brood chamber through a small hole in the back of the hive and as crofter mentioned the device can be left hanging in the hole while the next hive and charge is prepared. The 3/16" outlet need not be very long and crystallization is never a problem, Most times the outlet gets plugged it is due to pushing the outlet into propolis around the small hole. Most of the devices that I have made has the outlet coming straight out about 11/2" from the bottom with the outlet not more than 2" in length and I never have any problems. I find that I have to clean the combustion chamber after about 20 treatments as the OA residue builds up and slows down the treatment time if not cleaned.
Johno


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## johno

Beesource seems to have a problem it claims that there is a post by someone asking about the set temperature of the device, I have a copy of that post sent to my email but it does not show up when you get into the thread so the question cannot be answered.
Johno


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## johno

Farmer0298 your post did not come up in this thread for some reason or another, however I set the temperature of the controller to 450 degrees. Now some may think that the set point is too high but what it does is create a reservoir of heat and as soon as the OA hits the hot copper bottom the temperature drops down to 320 Degees F and slowly rises and once it gets above 400 the sublimation has been completed. You can see the device at work on this link. https://youtu.be/Ets5cCtFsb4


----------



## KenNashua

Because I did the bolt, thermocouple, washer, nut x2 attachment, i'm getting some leakage (not enough to matter, but get oxalic buildup) on the hardware. Any thoughts on getting a better seal on the bottom mount?


----------



## johno

Hi Ken, I use a #10 pan head screw. I think it is a 10 by 32 so it is a fine thread then use a fender washer which is a large diameter washer to clamp the very thin wire of the thermocouple to the bottom of the copper pipe. You need to tighten the nut as tight as you can, after that I add 3 more nuts to give me some distance from the aluminum strip and then another nut to bolt the device to the aluminum. I have never had any leakage through that screw. Do you have a type k thermocouple that is used on multimeters.
Johno


----------



## lmannyr

Hello everyone. I'm happy to find this thread. I've been wanting to get the provap but its just to pricey. How much does putting one of these DIY OAV cost in parts? Also, there are 29 pages with over 550 comments. Can someone post a list of parts that I need to purchase instead of me trying to ready all 550 comments. Thank you..


----------



## yotebuster1200

lmannyr said:


> Hello everyone. I'm happy to find this thread. I've been wanting to get the provap but its just to pricey. How much does putting one of these DIY OAV cost in parts? Also, there are 29 pages with over 550 comments. Can someone post a list of parts that I need to purchase instead of me trying to ready all 550 comments. Thank you..


Maybe it has already been done. There is a lot of awesome info on this thread and forum but it is not fair to ask people to continue to repeat the same info because someone does not have the time or desire to dig through the information already shared.


----------



## johno

Imannyr I do not know where you are but in the USA this vaporizer can be built for around $70. It is based on a 11/4" by 2" copper coupling or on a 2" long piece of 11/2" copper pipe which will have a copper bottom welded on and a 3/16" by 2" long outlet welded into the chamber about 13/8" from the bottom. A 120volt 270 watt part # MX 15006 from Plastic Process Equipment goes around the chamber. A type K thermocouple of the type used on multimeters is clamped between the bottom of the chamber and a large flat washer using a #10 ( 3/16") pan head screw that is also the mounting screw onto a piece of ' by 1/8" aluminum bar. The 120V supply is fed to the band heater through a Mypin A4 - RNR temperature controller which is available from Amazon for about $25. The caps for getting in the OA are from Mocap and are hollow tapered silicone plugs you have to buy 5 at a time at a cost of about $5 each. How you want to put this together is up to you.
Johno


----------



## lmannyr

johno said:


> Imannyr I do not know where you are but in the USA this vaporizer can be built for around $70. It is based on a 11/4" by 2" copper coupling or on a 2" long piece of 11/2" copper pipe which will have a copper bottom welded on and a 3/16" by 2" long outlet welded into the chamber about 13/8" from the bottom. A 120volt 270 watt part # MX 15006 from Plastic Process Equipment goes around the chamber. A type K thermocouple of the type used on multimeters is clamped between the bottom of the chamber and a large flat washer using a #10 ( 3/16") pan head screw that is also the mounting screw onto a piece of ' by 1/8" aluminum bar. The 120V supply is fed to the band heater through a Mypin A4 - RNR temperature controller which is available from Amazon for about $25. The caps for getting in the OA are from Mocap and are hollow tapered silicone plugs you have to buy 5 at a time at a cost of about $5 each. How you want to put this together is up to you.
> Johno


Johno, 

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU for the EXCELLENT response. 

I'm in Central Florida, USA. Now to search the PPE catalogue. Not a friendly search site. 

I like how your build came out. Smaller than the commercially sold version at a fraction of the cost and just as effective as i saw in your video.


----------



## lmannyr

Will this temp sensor work?

https://www.amazon.com/Uxcell-40-40...hermocouple+probe&refinements=p_85:2470955011


----------



## johno

Imannr, you need a thermocouple type K with a very small end just the twisted wires. You can find them on ebay. I used a 11/4" copper pipe coupling as my pipe cutter is max 1" and so I cannot properly cut 11/2" copper pipe. I suppose you could cut the pipe with a hacksaw but the ends should be pretty square.
Johno


----------



## Cjj

Hey John I replaced the copper tube today with the steel brake line tube , 1 3/8 off the bottom works great It won’t bend and I think it will hold the heat better , It was tough to weld it to the copper bowl , going to give it a workout tomorrow I still have 50 to do


----------



## johno

Let us know how it works out Chet, although the steel will be stronger than the 3/16" copper tube you just need to watch and see if the steel tube plugs up with OA crystals due to the fact that the steel does not have the same coefficient of heat as the copper and the tip could be cooler. 
Johno


----------



## Cjj

It's funny John , I did one yard that has 40 hives the first 20 or so I had no clogging than it started to clog , in one of my other yards there is 15 hives no clogging at all i might cut a 1/4 in off the tube to see if that helps , i am going to treat later this week so i will let you know


----------



## Rogue26

Thank you for the wealth of information in this thread. I have a topper hive that doesn't have a standard dimension entrance so I was having a hard time trying to determine the best method for an OA treatment. I completed my build of the simple version with the exception of cutting to the final length on the discharge tube. I was wondering if the overall height of the chamber would make any difference. I am still waiting on the Mo-Caps to arrive but was thinking that I might be able to cut the chamber a bit shorter. I used 1" copper pipe and then flattened out a piece and brazed it to the bottom. Thanks again for all the help provided here in the thread.


----------



## johno

The simple ones I made had the 1" copper cut to 2" long and the 3/16" tube was put in 11/2" from the bottom. If it is longer than 2" it should still work although you might get some OA crystalization around the top.
Johno


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## Biermann

I can't find any 3/16, will 1/4" work?
Joerg


----------



## Rogue26

Biermann said:


> I can't find any 3/16, will 1/4" work?
> Joerg


I believe somewhere in the thread 1/4” was tested and didn’t work as well as the 3/16”. I was able to find mine in the plumbing section at a local farm supply store. They sold it by the foot.


I received my plugs today and didn’t have immediate access to a die grinder but I tried with a Dremel tool with a sanding drum that would fit in the initial hole. Worked great I opened two of them up to hole the 2g pretty quickly. 

As a test I heated up the vaporizer for 5min and then dropped a 2g load in the strong vapor stopped at about 1min. It is 64 degrees with a slight wind and I don’t have any insulation on the vaporizer.


----------



## Son of Pete

Hello All,
Anyone interested in going in on a 50 pack of MOCAPS with me? I need about 20. I find that treating my yard goes WAAAAAYYY faster if I pre-load my MOCAPS and set one on each hive before I turn on the heater. I can then go from hive to hive at about 30-40 seconds each. The caps are $2.25 each in a 50 pack, vs $5 each when bought in 5 packs. You'll just need to cover the shipping to you, which will be very reasonable as I have a UPS account for my business. Any takers? Please contact me even if this post is a few days or weeks old. I'll wait until I can split these with someone before i buy.


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## Biermann

johno said:


> The European vaporizers have the tube coming out high and bending down the sides before going outwards precisely because they intended the device to treat through the entrance, that is fine anyone can do that however there is much more work involved when treating through the entrance at the front of the hive and it is much more advantageous treating from the back of the hive through a small hole. It is even more advantageous treating higher up above the brood chamber through a small hole in the back of the hive and as crofter mentioned the device can be left hanging in the hole while the next hive and charge is prepared. The 3/16" outlet need not be very long and crystallization is never a problem, Most times the outlet gets plugged it is due to pushing the outlet into propolis around the small hole. Most of the devices that I have made has the outlet coming straight out about 11/2" from the bottom with the outlet not more than 2" in length and I never have any problems. I find that I have to clean the combustion chamber after about 20 treatments as the OA residue builds up and slows down the treatment time if not cleaned.
> Johno


Johno, why not treat through the inspection hole in the tele-lid with a sealing plug, it would distribute the vapor even more uniform than injected from the side? I understand the advantage of inserting the vaporizer tube in to the back side of the hive upside-down, the charge loaded in to the plug and then turned upside up to start the vaporizing. This would be difficult from the top, but uniformity of the vaporization on all frames should be better, or not?

Joerg


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## johno

Hi Joerg, The only way to see how the vapor will spread out is to make up something in plexiglass or something so that you can have the same as 2 deeps or 3 mediums in a box where you can see all then vaporize and see the results. I do not mind coming in from the top but would say rather from the side at the top so that the plume of vapor goes across the box and then down. Coming in from the top you may just drive the plume of vapor down and not fill the corners of the top box. This coming in with the vapor above the second box I got from seeing the results of treating my observation hive. If I could find some cheap 1/4" plexi I would make up something with all the frames inside to see which way gets the best vapor coverage. Son of Pete, buying those Mocap parts in larger numbers sure does bring the price down but shipping costs are also a problem. It looks to me that with 40 hives I will have to replace those plugs every year and I have already bought 50 and I have also supplied them to my local guys.
Johno


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## crofter

Has anyone experimented with high temperature silicone O Rings? I fashioned some square cross section rings from liquid Hi Temp Silicone which I use on turned hardwood base. (old shovel handle) The rings seem to take the heat and seal OK but the wood is charring a bit. What is the failure mode of the Mocap plugs?


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## johno

Hi Frank, I used 2 mocap plugs for a season and they got pretty worn where they sit on the hot metal after about a year. However I sanded the taper back on my disc sander and they can still be used.
But I would say if you are vaporizing many hives you would probably replace them yearly.
Johno


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## Son of Pete

Frank, Maybe I'm mis-understanding your the intent of your question with the o-rings, but the beauty of these MOCAPs is that they're hollow, so you dump your OA in the plug, put it into the heater (upside down), turn it over and you're instantly vaporizing. You would not want to add powder and then try to cap it with anything. As quick as it sublimates, you'd have a hard time even seeing where to apply the o-ring through the OA fog.

Johno, I went ahead and purchased a 50 pack for myself. With shipping they ended up being $2.25 each. I can't thank you enough for posting this thread. I could never justify the cost of a Pro-vap, but I built my own band heater from what I learned in this thread and it is just a beautiful tool.


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## Biermann

crofter said:


> Has anyone experimented with high temperature silicone O Rings? I fashioned some square cross section rings from liquid Hi Temp Silicone which I use on turned hardwood base. (old shovel handle) The rings seem to take the heat and seal OK but the wood is charring a bit. What is the failure mode of the Mocap plugs?


Frank, we machined one plug from alu and it fits easy, not enough to seal the OAV, but I thought too of a heat resistant o-ring, but never got any, instead ordered Mocap plugs. The alu could be easily machined to make the hollow for the OA charge and a handle screwed on to get it off, but I believe the Mopar plug still is the better choice, remember, all is hot when you have to work it.

Cheers, Joerg


----------



## crofter

The piece of hardwood is hollowed to serve as a measure. I have tried the solid aluminum with o ring and found that a lot of OA crystallized in the cavity since its exposed top surface cools too much from air contact. I have the materials to cast similar shapes from plaster of paris but hesitate about the likelihood of its being disolved by the acidic vapor. 

If I had the stock I think solid teflon with a groove for the O ring would be tickety boo. I suspect something similar is part of the commercial version we are mimicking.


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## johno

When I first stated making the vaporizer the cap was always a problem until Mocap was discovered. I tried all sorts of things to seal the top and even bought some high temperature O rings but they did not last very long and soon became brittle. The Imported vaporizer I think does machine Teflon caps but the O rings also do not last, at least this is what I have picked up from some users. I should suggest you take a look at the price of Teflon and you might change your mind about using it.
Johno


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## snl

crofter said:


> If I had the stock I think solid teflon with a groove for the O ring would be tickety boo. I suspect something similar is part of the commercial version we are mimicking.


And you’d be correct. You can buy the Teflon caps and O-rings on my website.


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## johno

I still think it would take a lot to beat the mocap plugs at $2.25 each, using at least 3 at a time you can really get your treatment time down.
Johno


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## Biermann

Probably a silly question again, how do you start the process? I don't see a on/off switch anywhere? or do you use a button on the controller? 

Joerg


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## tnnewbe

Joerg:
The only silly question is the one not asked.
The unit is live as soon as you plug it in and will stay live as long as plugged in.

Ken


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## mgolden

An option for a switch, if you want one is a metal electrical box and a wall light switch mounted in it, electrical cord and plugs on ends. I have one built for controlling my hot knife temp. Use my toe to turn it on and off.


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## johno

Joerg it is meant to be plug and play, and when you are done unplug and pack up. I had switches on the pan types I was using in the beginning so many times I would set it up slide the pan in wait my 3 minutes take it out and find un sublimated OA oops forgot to turn on the switch and start again. Now run out the cord plug the vaporizer in and start filling caps 11/2 minutes later we are up to temp and away we go until the yard is done then unplug.
Johno


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## Biermann

I guess that makes sense, unless you don't have a temp. controller. Also, seems to dictate to have the charges & openings prepared before you start the unit.

Still trying for the 3/16 copper, but my copper welderboy is gone till Tuesday and he probably can tig-weld brake-line to the copper pan, but I let him worry about that. I need the unit ready after the 16th.

Joerg


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## johno

Joerg the 3/16" copper tubing is mostly refrigeration stuff and comes in rolls, the ID is around 1/8". Brake tubing around that size should work OK but is a little more difficult to weld, also I would make it as short as you can as the steel will not have the same coefficient of heat as the copper and if it is the same length as the copper you could get some plugging up of the tip.
Johno


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## Biermann

More questions: do you all keep the entrance open as is, let's say with a reducer, or do you seal the entrance? I use to do this with a wet towel with the bottom OAV pan. I normally do this late evening, when it is dark and all bees are home.

The season is drawing to an end, but I still have broad in the boxes, how often to treat? Every five days, for 25 days so 6 times, or twice now and then in November again with mostly no brood?

Joerg


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## mgolden

I did my hives 5 times 4 days apart starting about third week of August. Used a Varrox and wet rag across entrance. I was seeing very little drone brood which takes 24 days(8 open and 16 days capped). If you are concerned about drone brood, covering 16 days plus 3 days for OAV efficacy should cover 19 days. Worker brood is 13 days capped.

I put a sticky board down after first and second treatment to see what dead mite count is for three days. Was counting less than 20 so hives didn't need treating but was a simple way to check mite infestation. However, carried on treatment to knock mites down. I also plan to do a late October, one time OAV when mostly broodless.

Check Ian's video on OAV. I will get a link and post it here with an edit. My memory says he was using an entrance reducer and 2-3 grams in a single deep. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5ypDMwqAKQ&t=0s&index=173&list=PLyDBTwXKg92EfXnjXyiPBZrU3-9xaRji8


----------



## Son of Pete

Biermann said:


> More questions: do you all keep the entrance open as is, let's say with a reducer, or do you seal the entrance? I use to do this with a wet towel with the bottom OAV pan. I normally do this late evening, when it is dark and all bees are home.
> 
> The season is drawing to an end, but I still have broad in the boxes, how often to treat? Every five days, for 25 days so 6 times, or twice now and then in November again with mostly no brood?
> 
> Joerg


I treat from the back of my hives through a hole drilled in the top lip of my bottom board. I do not close the front entrances on my hives. It takes too long, and I can see that that the vapor is permeating my hives completely even with the front entrances open. MY FRONT ENTRANCES ARE 1 INCH BY 3/4 INCH THOUGH. If yours are wide open, you would probably want a reducer.
You're going to get a variety of answers on how often to treat. Given the life cycle of the mite, I feel like going over 5 days is allowing too many get back back down into open brood in between treatments. I've had great success though treating every 5 days, and I like to treat for 24 - 28 days.
Just FYI, I am currently in the middle of round of treatments for 18 colonies. I treat Monday and Friday every week. I started Monday, August 27, and my last treatment will be this next Friday, Sept 21. This will probably seem like overkill to some, but I have the time to do it, and I want complete eradication. You should have great results treating 6 times every fifth day.


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## johno

Joerg, I treated my hives in August, 5 times about 5 days apart. I then did random mite counts about 2 weeks after treatment and had 1 mite per 1/2 cup of bees. However 1 hive had 3 mites so I will start another round of treatment as soon as this rain is over. Then I will do a treatment in late November and another in December as I want as few mites as possible over winter and into spring. I know this is more treatments than other beekeepers but have found in years before that you can get a sudden increase in mite levels late in the season and as the treatments are so quick and easy and appears to do no harm it allows me to sleep easier. Also my hives are reduced to a small entrance as this time of the year robbing can become a problem so I do not even close them off. However if I was treating from the bottom I would close them off with dry dish towels as anything wet will not last very long once the acid vapor gets onto it.
Johno


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## Biermann

Thanks all,

got the last component this morning, the 3/16 tube, now I am ready to assemble and treat. My son capped the pipe on one side








I will put a toggle switch between the hot wire to the heat band, just because.
The 3' of thermocouple wire is kind of long, I am planning to shorten it to 6", any objections? I know it is tricky, but should be able to do, have a second in reserve if I screw-up.

The last supers were removed on Wednesday, still with a total of 110lbs from three hives.

All now have a large, 3"x1/2" reducer.

Thanks for all the help.

Joerg


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## Biermann

Okay, so my OAV is now ready, but I am having issues to configure the MyPin.

Here some pictures:



























If anyone sees my mistake, tell me, if not I will keep trying.

Joerg


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## johno

Biermann it appears you do not have your thermocouple connected correctly, the thermocouple leads should go to terminals 7 and 8 and you should end up with around 70F or 20C when you turn the unit on. The temperature should increase as it heats, if it decreases you will need to swop around the thermocouple connections. Otherwise you may have a faulty thermocouple.
John


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## Biermann

Hello John,

It seems I am getting forward. Yes, the thermo couple was on the wrong terminals, fixed and I have readout, but the temp. does not go up and I have 2 jumped to 3, one wire from the heating element to 1 and the other to 4.

I had the jumper on 5 yesterday and the second from the heat element to 6, then it heated, but continuously, but 5 & 6 are is the alarm switch.









Joerg


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## johno

Biermann I wire it like this, the black wire from your cord and one lead from your heater go to #1, the white wire from the cord and one end of your jumper wire to #2, then the other end of the jumper wire to #3 then the other heater lead to #4, the thermocouple to #7 and #8 and the ground wire to whatever the copper part is bolted to. Also make sure that you have a Mypin TA4 RnR.
Johno


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## Biermann

John, I just did my hives in manual mode. Good I put the toggle switch in. The readout showed 350 in upside-down position and I turned the unit upside to drop the charge. The 3 gram went out in less then a minute. I noticed a small amount leaking at the mounting screw, so I need to modify this a little, didn't want to over tighten the screw and damage the thermo couple. Four hives done in no time. I noticed my heat coil did start smoking when I went to 400°F, so I went back to 350°F.

My MyPin is a TA4-SNR-K, so I goofed-up and have to see what to do. Have to read the instructions more thorough, but I got them treated and go on vacation now for two weeks.

Cheers, Joerg


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## laketrout

I used 3/16 steel brake line for the outlet tube because I have it laying around it works but does crystallize sometimes , I take it your using rigid copper tubing 3/16 where is everyone finding it


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## johno

Laketrout if you can work with a shorter nozzle that might prevent the steel tube from clogging. I have bought small copper tubing from my local Ace hardware store, it comes in rolls and you can buy it by the foot. I worked with marine refrigeration and air conditioning so I have that kind of stuff lying around. The other possibility is fitting some copper tube over the steel which might help by conducting more heat to the steel.
Johno


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## laketrout

Johno I found soft copper in the roll at the hardware store but it seemed like it would bend to easy when letting the vaporizer hang by itself when vaporizing , if thats what your using I will give it a try , I just assumed you were using the rigid form of copper pipe and not the soft copper in the rolls


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## Cjj

Laketrout I made one with 3/16 steel brake line , I did have a problem with it clogging up when it was about 2 in long so I cut it down to 1 1/2 now it does not clog , I did 50 hives today without a problem


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## johno

That is the stuff,3/16" OD and about 1/8" ID. I cut that to a max of 2" long, the heat from welding makes the copper very soft so once it is welded do not drop the copper otherwise you can distort the opening where the mocap plug goes in and then you might not get a good seal. Once the band heater is clamped around the copper it helps to protect it, I also use 5/16" fiber glass rope to wrap around the band heater which I then hold together with duck tape to prevent the rope from unraveling
Johno.


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## laketrout

Ok guys I will try cutting the length down and see how it goes from there , Thanks .


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## Lburou

Cjj, where did you find the box you used to mount your PID? BTW, you have a PM.


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## Biermann

Post #153? Looks like a electrical junction box painted black.

Johno, did you cut the plugs out to have the large chamber? Mine hold only 1.5 gram and cutting them open is a pain, any suggestions how to?

Habee vaporizing.

Joerg


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## Cjj

Lburou said:


> Cjj, where did you find the box you used to mount your PID? BTW, you have a PM.


I got them on eBay
HAMMOND 1591TSBK ENCLOSURE, MULTIPURPOSE, ABS, BLACK 1 piece


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## johno

Joerg, did you use 1" copper pipe. I am using a 11/4" copper coupling and its inside diameter is 1.367", the mocap plugs that fit this will hold at least 3 grams.
Johno


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## Lburou

I'd like to add my thanks to all who contributed to this thread, especially JohnO. :thumbsup: Lots of smart and handy people here, I'm humbled.

Myself and four or five of my Bee Club friends are going to make a project of building vaporizers after JohnO's version.

We all have our own constraints as we plan our own version of JohnO's work developing a poor man's version of this vaporizer. I found copper couplings for 1.5" pipe locally, shown here:










The _inside_ diameter of this coupling measures 1.625" (coupling is 2.3" long). I have ordered short lengths of 1.625" 6061 aluminium rod as shown HERE on ebay. These short rods can be cut again to 5/8"-3/4" in length and pressed into the bottom of the coupling. Any recommendations on the best length for optimal mass in the bottom of the bowl?

I'm interested in Johno's experience as to an optimum size and wattage for the band heater...? If we were lucky and chose the right physical size and wattage, we could forego the PID. That would be our first choice, but we remain flexible on that. Anybody have any thoughts or recommendations?

TIA


----------



## johno

Lburou, I used 11/4" couplings which gave me just under 11/2 " OD for the 270 Watt by 11/2" ID by 11/2" long band heaters which can be obtained from Plastic Process Equipment. I do not know if you will be able to stretch them to 1.625" OD of your couplings. My couplings are only 2" long so if you can make an aluminum plug you could go as much as a 1/2" into your coupling although 3/8" could be enough. You would need to machine the aluminum to the correct dimensions then heat the copper up some and cool the aluminum when you press it in. I build mine by putting the 11/4" coupling onto a flat piece of copper and then silphos welding them on the inside of the coupling then trim the excess flat off the bottom with metal shears and finish of with a disc sander. I have just checked the band heaters I use and the max they will go around is 1.567"
Johno


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## johno

Just one thing I forgot to add, if you do not use a temperature controller the wattage of you heater would probably have to be in the 100 to 150 watts or else the heater would probably fail due to overheating at the 100 to 150 watt level you would end up slowing the sublimation process down to the level of perhaps 1 treatment every 11/2 minutes which would bring you back to the El Cheapo model using 1" pipe and the cheap Chinese band heater. 
Johno


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## fatoz

johno said:


> Just one thing I forgot to add, if you do not use a temperature controller the wattage of you heater would probably have to be in the 100 to 150 watts or else the heater would probably fail due to overheating at the 100 to 150 watt level you would end up slowing the sublimation process down to the level of perhaps 1 treatment every 11/2 minutes which would bring you back to the El Cheapo model using 1" pipe and the cheap Chinese band heater.
> Johno


Yes, mine is 140W and doesn't use a heat controller. It heats up in 4 min or so and vaporizes in 30 sec or so. Also I don't have to wait between treatments as it heats back up very quickly. 

Used 110V version of this product at https://www.aliexpress.com/item/40m...938.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.40694c4di5ZWNf


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## ptwat

Hi, I have been getting a lot of good information from this thread and want to give back a little. I am attaching the TA4-RNR wiring diagram to the external devices for people who are visual like me. I will note that I used the relay to switch power, not ground. I don't like the idea of an energized band heater (with respect to ground) as a default state. If you want to use johno's setup, move the band heater wire from terminal 2 to terminal 1 and move the jumper wire from terminal 1 to terminal 2.


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## Lburou

Johno, could you fill a gap in my education and help me understand choosing the MYPIN PID over one of the REX- C100 units like the ProVap units use? They cost half as much. Apologies if you have already answered this.


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## johno

Lburou, the Rex is much deeper than the Mypin for one, so you would require a deeper box to house it in. The Rex is in temperature C only while the Mypin is able to run C or F. Most of the cheap Rex controllers are for solid state relays so an extra component needs to be added which further increases the cost and size of the housing required besides complicating the circuitry. By using the Mypin in my design I can use a 60 cent box to house it in while for a Rex we would be in a much higher dollar range for the box the unit would be a lot bigger and heavier and I wonder exactly what the savings would be if any at all.
Johno


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## beeman2009

Also a question for johno. The type k thermocoupler you mentioned is the type used for multi meters. I have not found a particular listing for such. I did find those used for thermometers. Are these the same thing? My knowledge is limited in this area so please forgive me. Thanks so much for this thread & thanks to all who have contributed.


----------



## johno

Beeman2009, you have to search Amazon and ebay for this type of thermocouple in the link below.
https://www.amazon.com/Extech-TP870...8-152&keywords=type+k+multimeter+thermocouple
Johno


----------



## johno

Now I forgot to mention in post 626 that mypins are also available for solid state outputs, the one I use has a relay output and so is Termed as a Mypin TA4-RNR it is important that you get the correct mypin controller. Also if you are tempted to use a Rex controller be aware that they are sometimes designed to use only one type of thermocouple whereas the Mypin can be programmed to use any of the thermocouple types. Ptwats wiring is basically correct to the conventional wiring codes, however I felt that in the case of a ground fault in the band heater we would trip out the GFI or the outlet circuit breaker, if the hot went through the temp controller you would need to replace the controller and the band heater but if the neutral was switched by the controller and you had a fault in the band heater you would end up only replacing the heater, But this also means that it is important to have a solid ground connection connected to the metal of the heating chamber.
Johno


----------



## ptwat

I can understand protecting the contacts. The relay can be protected by adding a 5 amp fuse since the contacts are rated at 5 amps and the heater draws less than three amps. Because the load is resistive, a regular fast blow fuse should work. The input power should have a fuse as well and one fuse can protect the whole unit as well as the contacts.


----------



## beeman2009

Thanks johno. I got it now. :thumbsup:


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## Lburou

johno said:


> ...The Rex is in temperature C only while the Mypin is able to run C or F. Most of the cheap Rex controllers are for solid state relays so an extra component needs to be added...Now I forgot to mention in post 626 that mypins are also available for solid state outputs, the one I use has a relay output and so is Termed as a Mypin TA4-RNR it is important that you get the correct mypin controller....
> Johno


 All good reasons Johno, thank you!


----------



## cyou

Lburou, here is a link for REX-C100 0-400*C relay output and it is 4"deep https://www.aliexpress.com/item/PID...702.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.4a874c4dX4bnyg


----------



## Lburou

Cjj said:


> I got them on eBay
> HAMMOND 1591TSBK ENCLOSURE, MULTIPURPOSE, ABS, BLACK 1 piece





cyou said:


> Lburou, here is a link for REX-C100 0-400*C relay output and it is 4"deep https://www.aliexpress.com/item/PID...702.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.4a874c4dX4bnyg


I recognize Johno has blazed a trail for the rest of us, and we're copying most of his work for our Bee Club Vaporizer project...But, that person inside me who will do most anything to save a dollar has checked into cyou's link. The REX C100(M) is supposed to have a built-in 'Control' Relay and will fit into Cjj's box with half an inch to spare. So, I'm going to risk $6.85 to find out if we can make this work for us and save $15-20 in the process. Working in Centigrade doesn't seem too big a concession at this point. 

We will report back about how this goes.


----------



## johno

Lburou, using the Rex controller will make the device quite a bit cheaper and will not effect the performance in any way. The reason that I used the Mypin is because it is smaller and more easily suits the way I build the device. It is the principle that matters and the Rex controller does not effect that at all.
Johno


----------



## Lburou

johno said:


> ... It is the principle that matters and the Rex controller does not effect that at all.
> Johno


Thanks for the encouragement JohnO. 

Johno, have you tried the screw type thermocouple? (like this one)


----------



## yotebuster1200

Do you have a link to the screw type thermocouple? If you are talking about a threaded thermocouple (solid instead of a wire end) then you would need to solder a thermowell onto your copper cup. It should work and might be a better option long term..

Edit: and by solder i mean silver solder or braze


----------



## Lburou

yotebuster1200 said:


> Do you have a link to the screw type thermocouple? If you are talking about a threaded thermocouple (solid instead of a wire end)...It should work and might be a better option long term..
> 
> Edit: and by solder i mean silver solder or braze


Yes, I put a link in the post above. 

Our preliminary plan is to press an aluminum plug into the bottom of the copper coupling. With a plug of about 5/8" thick/deep in one end of the coupling, we can thread the screw type thermocouple into the bottom of the plug. We can also thread that same plug in the center of the bottom and use it to mount the metal strip holding the PID and handle. This would leave the (inside) bottom of the sublimation bowl with a clean flat surface. It should require no special equipment to accomplish. Any thoughts?


----------



## johno

In the following pics you will see why I use the Mypin controller, If you figure in the cost of the box you have to buy for the Rex and then all the extra work to put the thing together I do not know if you are any better off. As you can see my copper bottomed cylinder has the mounting screw coming through the bottom and the twisted end of the instrument thermocouple gets clamped with a stainless washer( 3/16" fender washer ) directly to the copper bottom













You can see why the Rex controller will not work on my system.


----------



## Biermann

I agree with Johno, that the Mypin & 'clamp-between' thermocouple makes the most sense. All my Mypins came with screw-in thermocouples, but getting this all to make good thorough contact on an all copper *welded* chamber did not work or was to much extra work. Also, when in heating mode, upside down, the heat travels up more then down and gives a good reading on the bottom clamped thermocouple.

Yotebuster & lburou, one is allowed to try anything, but using a bottom alu plug puts a different material in again and sealing all long-term may proof difficult. Find a good tig welder and have a bottom welded in, copper to copper and you will have fun for a long time.

I only use the mypin on mine as a temp-readout, cause I ordered the bloody wrong mypin TA4 SNR+K, but my unit works good without temp-control with the clamped-between thermocouple. Once my TA4 RNR shows up, it should work in auto mode.

Joerg


----------



## yotebuster1200

Biermann said:


> Yotebuster & lburou, one is allowed to try anything, but using a bottom alu plug puts a different material in again and sealing all long-term may proof difficult. Find a good tig welder and have a bottom welded in, copper to copper and you will have fun for a long time.
> 
> Joerg


I agree that an aluminum plug probably isnt ideal and the units i have built i have silver soldered a copper base to the copper coupling. I also have clamped the wire thermocouple to the base with a washer/screw and nut. 

Johno: Where did you pick up that handle? I have been looking for a useful setup for a handle. Yours looks pretty slick.


----------



## johno

Yotebuster1200, I have a couple of 3D printers and print the handle and the top with a cutout for the temperature controller.
Johno


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## yotebuster1200

Now thats cheating! Maybe I will have to hit up my cousin. 

Would you be willing to sell me a few handles?


----------



## johno

Yotebuster go to For Sale and look for my thread you can then click on my email, email me and we can talk.
Johno


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## fatoz

yotebuster1200 said:


> I agree that an aluminum plug probably isnt ideal and the units i have built i have silver soldered a copper base to the copper coupling.


Just want to add my 2 cents. I use an aluminum plug and seems to be working just fine. It is better to heat up the copper coupling and let it expand before taking your measurements. It just leaked a little since it was built last year after boiling some water to clean it up. But that leak appears to be plugged after 15 or so rounds. I am contemplating about using exhaust putty to seal if I build another one.


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## Cjj

I welded a copper plate on the bottom and then put in a 1/4 aluminum plug , my recovery time is about 20 sec


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## fatoz

Cjj said:


> I welded a copper plate on the bottom and then put in a 1/4 aluminum plug , my recovery time is about 20 sec


This is a very good idea. Since I did not have (or want to invest in) any welding equipment, I used hi-temp silicone to seal gaps when built mine (see post #558).


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## yotebuster1200

You dont need to invest in welding equipment. All you need is a propane plumbing torch (i buy the mapp gas bottles for silber soldering because it is a little hotter) and some silver solder brazing wire. The melting point on silver solder is around 1000* F compaired to plumbing or electrical solder which has a melting point of around 400* F, make sure you pick up the silver solder and not the plumbing solder. Also make sure you dont pick up brazing wire which has a melting point of around 1650* F unless you have an oxy acetylene torch because a plumbers propane torch will not get hot enough. 

Silver solder will be much better than any type of high temp adhesive. In this application it is just as good as a welded on base. I have a tig torch but for this application the silver solder is just as good, quicker and easier.


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## crofter

The name silver solder gets abused a lot. Unless you are talking to a jeweller it is most often silver brazing alloy the person has in mind. It requires flux and is expensive. 

What johno is using is a brazing alloy for copper and its alloys that contains no silver and needs no flux: only a fraction of the cost. It is called Sil Phos. and available at welding supply outlets. It is what I used on my rendition of the vaporizer. johno butts his bottom onto the sides and mine is inset.


----------



## yotebuster1200

Yes you are correct. I was refering to silver aloy brazing rods. It is expensive but for a project like this, it only uses a few cents worth of brazing rod. But it is about the only brazing rod i can weld with a plumbers torch setup. Other brazing rods are cheaper but you need a hotter setup to braze with it.


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## crofter

I have done it day in and day out with oxy acet and the sil phos but dont know if it would work with the mapp or propane torches. I have the oxy acet at hand so was not inclined to try it that way. The curse with the silver brazing alloys is the crystallizing of the little jars of flux. You can get flux coated silver brazing rod but it is better to have some flux on the joint before you put the heat to it.


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## ptwat

I want to share a couple of designs for the bowl I have been playing with. The first one on the left is a 1-1/4 in copper pipe with a flattened copper coupler brazed to the bottom with a 3/16 copper tube brazed to hole in the cylinder. The one to the right of it is a 1-1/14 copper coupler sawed in half with a 1 1/4 copper cap with 2 inch piece of 1-1/4 copper pipe inside. The three pieces are brazed in the middle (half way up the cylinder). I did these to double the mass of the bowl and still use a 1-1/2 inch band heater. The 3/16 tube is brazed 1-1/4 inch from the bottom. The inside 1-1/4 copper pipe shows a little at the top and will be flared slightly to ease the insertion of the Mocap silicone hollow stopper.
I used a TIG welder to braze with Sil phos because I did not want to buy another torch.


----------



## yotebuster1200

I have been able to.braze small parts with a mapp or propane setup but larger pieces are to much of a heat sink and i can neverget the rod to flow. I have used two mapp torches (not a pencil tip) and generated enough heat to braze a base to the coupling. But i can use a very small amount of silver brazing wire, and a mapp torch and make good but joints.


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## ptwat

This is another design with the 3/16 copper tube exiting the bottom to keep the tube in the hot bowl as long as possible. I turned the tubing facing down to keep the unvaporized OA from going down the tube when the vaporizer is turned upright. The problem with this design is that is a little too complicated than required and the bottom exiting tube is too high relative to the aluminum mount location making it a little difficult to insert into the front of the hive. It functions well though
For a final version I plan to have a tube exit vertically out the bottom of the bowl and make a 90 degree turn that makes the tube closer to the aluminum support and easier for a hive front insertion. I also plan to braze a stainless tube for more strength.


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## Lburou

ptwat said:


> This is another design with the 3/16 copper tube exiting the bottom to keep the tube in the hot bowl as long as possible...


You may be interested in the way THIS build was done (go ahead and mute the audio, you will still get the jist of what I'm pointing out). Note in the discussion under the video how he cut a 1.625" aluminum rod to plug the bottom of his copper (he has a 1.625"x1.5" mass of aluminum as the bottom of his bowl). I think he did a great job.

The aluminum plug in the bottom of the copper cylinder allows a firm mount for the screw type probe. He came from underneath with the bolt holding the bowl to the frame too, (did not penetrate the floor of the bowl with a bolt). 

I'm considering routing the tube carrying the sublimation charge down to the middle of that aluminum plug and out again from the side of the plug, (you can drill two holes that meet inside the plug and place two pieces of tubing to make the 'L' shaped escape for the sublimation). This design will have enough heat to sublimate any acid falling into the tube and keep the sublimation hot longer than having the tube on the outside of the bowl. This would result in a longer tube originating in the aluminum plug and coursing out several inches without buildup to stop sublimation flow. Use 1/4" tubing and a bore cleaning brush for a .177 caliber firearm to clean the tubing if you need to. Something to think about.


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## ptwat

I did not listen to the audio but it looks like he purchased a bowl from the original vendor. That certainly is a clean approach. Using an aluminum plug does not appeal to me however since it is another joint to seal, but to each his own. I found that the thick copper has enough thermal mass and the band heater can bring it back to top temp faster than I can get ready to do another OA charge. I am using the 300W version from IMS btw. The cleaning brush is a good idea too. I have done only six hives so far and not had a problem with the tube stopping up. 
I think this forum is a great place to share ideas! johno deserves all the credit for starting a thread almost two years ago about this affordable, easy approach to a vaporizer. Many others have contributed along the way.


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## crofter

My first model brought the discharge tube (3/8" copper tube) straight out the side above the single band. It had problems with plugging with re solidified crystals: too large and not picking up enough heat from the bowl. My present one uses 1/4 tube and is brazed solidly to the shell of the bowl where it descends down the outside. You can see by the color that it gets plenty hot. I dont have to do any cleaning of the discharge tube. That was a complicated construction though and I think if I did another I would make the thermal bridge inside something like what ptwat has done.

Lower band gets direct line voltage but the upper band has a light dimmer switch in series so I can adjust the cycle time. Since the picture taking I have added external fiberglass insulation which makes quite a difference when the temperature outside gets down near freezing.


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## Cjj

Crofter I found that bending the copper tube weakens it and over time it will crack { ask me how i know } so i switched mine back to about 1 3/4 of the bottom


----------



## aiannar974

Copper work hardens fast. Have you tried bending it with something filling it? I have used sugar in the past for a put put boat. Clamp one end shut, fill, clamp, bend and cut off the ends. Also, water may work.


----------



## Alex Madsen

What part number mocap are people using? Do you have a problem with melting? Most of the mocaps I see are LDPE or Polypropylene both of which melt at about the same temperature OA vaporizes. I noticed the ProVap 110 use PTFE caps that has a much higher melting temperature.

Alex


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## Alex Madsen

On further inspection, I found mocap sells MHSP Silicone Rubber Hollow Tapered Plugs rated to Resists Temps to 600°F (316°C). That looks like it will fit the bill. 

Alex


----------



## johno

These caps should be sized to fit your copper tube, the numbers after MHSP give you the dimension of the small end and of the large end so you require you copper pipe to be slightly larger than the first number. They do wear with use so will need to be replaced from time to time but feel that they are far safer than the Teflon cap as they will pop off quickly and without spraying hot OA around if the outlet becomes blocked, due to the fact of the soft silicone and the taper.
Johno


----------



## Lburou

laketrout said:


> I used 3/16 steel brake line for the outlet tube because I have it laying around it works but does crystallize sometimes , I take it your using rigid copper tubing 3/16 where is everyone finding it


THIS EBAY store will mail short lengths of tubing to your house. Be advised, this is very strong, rigid tubing. The linked auction is for one SS tube, one Brass tube and one copper tube about 6" long. I'm sure if you ask the seller he will send all copper. 
HTH 

P.S. Brass is 60-80% copper and is more malleable than copper. Brass could be a good conductor of heat while remaining strong in a vaporizer.


----------



## laketrout

Thanks for the link , I went ahead and cut a 1/2" off like suggested if it doesn't work out I will order the rigid pipes .


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## aiannar974

Johno - Do you only use OVA as a mite treatment?


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## johno

I do have some formic acid and some fume boards that I used before OAV, but for at least the last 4 to 5 years OAV has been the only treatment I have used. I am generally below 10% for winter losses and can say the losses that I have had have been through queen loss and starvation mostly starvation. I am in a poor area for honey production and this year did not have much more than 4 weeks of flow and thereafter not enough comes in to sustain the bees. So this year I harvested a little over 1000 lbs of honey and am up to about 600lbs of sugar that I am feeding. Also supplied beekeepers with 7 full colonies and 35 Nucs and am back with hive counts where I started in spring. All that info should tell you that my system works but I treat each hive around 12 times a year at least.
Johno


----------



## aiannar974

Thank you for the information. Are the 12 treatments always in a series or do you get a good bloodless period? Or maybe a better way to ask would be how many complete treatments do you get for example in summer maybe it would be 4 times for one complete treatment and in the winter it might be one time for a complete treatment?


----------



## johno

I will do my first round of 5 treatments after removing the honey in june so basically July then give it 2 to 3 weeks check the hives for mite counts and generally will do a second round of 5 treatments late August into September. My hives generally go broodless in November and December but all colonies are not the same so I will give them all a shot in November and then give them another treatment in December when I get a day around 50 degrees. Quite frankly I would like to try to treat some colonies once a week for the whole summer season and see what the results would be like as I feel this type of treatment is well tolerated by bees. I have an observation hive that I monitor while doing OAV and except for about a 5 minute disruption seems to create no problems with the colony. I also monitor this colony closely with a magnifying glass to try to spot mites. They are broodless at the moment so have been searching for days on the bees underbelly for feeding mites and lo and behold found a mite tucked in under the scales of a bee. So gave them a shot of OAV on Monday and by Thursday morning found 35 mites under the colony. Bearing in mind that this is from 6 medium frames so maybe 5000 bees all of which have gone through 10 treatments to this time so those little beggars sure know how to hide and survive.
Johno


----------



## Oh_Beehave

I wanted to post a quick 'thank you' to everyone that has contributed to this thread, I finished my vaporizer two weeks ago and finally got to use it today (it worked great). I did, however, make one modification to the controller: I purchased a Morning Group PID controller from amazon and am very happy. Additionally, I purchased a small 900W 2-stroke generator since my bee yards are fairly remote. Links to the controller and genny are below. Thanks again!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074ZS49JF/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EFZQ53W/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Tom


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## DUX4LIFE

Just getting around to building my version. Would a 1 1/2" copper disc McMaster Carr work ok for the bottom plate in a 1 1/2" copper pipe? Should be easiest for brazing by recessing it in from the bottom 1/16" or so. It would give you a flat surface on the side for the band clamp. Would it work better than the aluminum plug for retaining the thermal mass? Or would it be to much and sap the heat away?
Also looking at a K Type thermocouple with a ring terminal on the end for the bolt under the pot. Would this be a good Idea?


----------



## ptwat

I think that should work. One version of my bowl I used a copper coupler slit longway and flattened but on the others used a copper cap that appears to have a little more mass and is easier to braze. I am sure you realize the 1 1/2 copper pipe has an OD of 1 5/8" so that is important when you order your band heater. I use an 300W heater and it heats to 400 degrees F within two or three minutes. It also recovers quickly after vaporization. The limiting factor in my case is how fast I can prepare the entrance (I use homemade robber screens in the fall) and load the Mocap hollow plugs with OA.
As far as the ring terminal thermocouple, I use the method Johno came up with so I don't have experience with the ring version but it should also work as long as you get the bowl to 400 degrees or so. You can always use a laser temp probe to check the temperature and adjust the setpoint on the PID for any compensation.


----------



## johno

Dux4life, that copper disk you want to use is 1/2"thick, why not just cut some copper pipe heat it up cut it and flatten it. If you put a 11/4" copper coupling on top of that by heateng from the outside you can run a bead of Silphos around the inside, when cool trim the outside with metal snips and then grind it clean to the edge of the copper coupling. the MX15006 band heaters from Plastic Process Equipment fit the 11/4" coupling perfectly.
Johno


----------



## DUX4LIFE

I actually thought about trying a slightly different route with the exhaust. I was going to drill and tap a hole from the top 1/2 way through the copper plug and also drill another hole from the side of the assembled unit to meet the verticle hole. Then either thread or braze the horizontal exhaust out. The verticle pipe then would also be threaded or brazed, at a 1 1/4" height from the copper plug. I figured the exhaust may stay hotter for the process if it was kept internal as much as possible. I am also much better at mechanical things like drilling and tapping than welding, brazing, or soldering. I do have a son in the plumbing and one in the HVAC trades to fall back on. I always do tend to complicate things by trying to solve non existent problems though...Lol.


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## Lburou

DUX4LIFE said:


> ...Or would it be to much and sap the heat away?
> Also looking at a K Type thermocouple with a ring terminal on the end for the bolt under the pot. Would this be a good Idea?


The way I read THIS physics experiment , the specific heat capacity of aluminum is twice as much as copper at high heat. Heat won't leave the aluminum as fast, but it will hold your heat charge for less variation in the temperature, allowing you to operate at a lower temperature. A temperature that is too hot will decompose the oxalic acid, bypassing the sublimated state. See an example of this here. That video should be required viewing for any beekeeper using oxalic acid, watch the entire video and you will be the expert. 

In my view, more thermal mass available will allow a lower operating temperature & less decomposition of the oxalic acid before the temperature gets down to the optimal temp to sublimate and kill mites. We are going with the aluminum plug (like the ProVap). We've been tinkering with the idea of routing the vertical and horizontal tubing through the aluminum plug to use a longer horizontal tube for insertion in the front entrance. The screw type thermocouple is what we are going with, (like the ProVap).

We had 42x40mm 110V 220W heaters custom made and shipped from China. We may get by without the PID, we haven't finished testing yet. The 42mm diameter fits outside the 1.5" copper coupling and allows space for the tubing.

As an aside to your question about the 1.5" copper pipe dimensions and the correct sized plug, we found the 1.5" copper _coupling_ to fit very nicely over the 1.625" aluminum rod (no modification necessary). The fit of the coupling and rod leaves a perfect space between them for capillary action of the Sil-Fos (a few thousandths of an inch easily sealed with sil-Fos). 

JohnO's project has taken on a life of it's own. 

HTH


----------



## lmannyr

is this the correct Mypin?

*https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Pr...40829560&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Mypin+A4+-+RNR*


----------



## Lburou

lmannyr said:


> is this the correct Mypin?
> 
> *https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Pr...40829560&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Mypin+A4+-+RNR*


Yes, the MYPIN TA4 RNR is the PID Johno recommends. 




cyou said:


> Lburou, here is a link for REX-C100 0-400*C relay output and it is 4"deep https://www.aliexpress.com/item/PID...702.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.4a874c4dX4bnyg


This REX-C100 does not power the heater directly, you need, just as Johno cautioned, a relay to power the heater with this unit.


----------



## lmannyr

Lburou said:


> Yes, the MYPIN TA4 RNR is the PID Johno recommends.
> 
> 
> 
> This REX-C100 does not power the heater directly, you need, just as Johno cautioned, a relay to power the heater with this unit.


Thanks for the quick response sir. ordering it now along with the thermocouples johno linked earlier. Both from amazon.


----------



## johno

Someone put up a link just recently for Rex controllers with a relay output so they are available, One of the things that has been overlooked with the temperature thing is the effect of the latent heat required to sublimate the OA which includes boiling off the water bound in its molecules. The other issue of conductivity of copper and aluminum is the fact that a thin copper bottom will quickly register the temperature change whereas a thicker aluminum bottom will react more slowly to the temperature change. also the fact that the set point of the temperature controller is much higher than the decomposition temperature of the OA but when 2 grams of OA is introduced into the hot vessel the temperature immediately drops to around sublimation temperature. I could also easily bend the outlet tube and make it come out of the bottom area of the device but chose not to as it would complicate the building for little gain and also create more tendency for blockages which would also be harder to clear due to the bends. On rare occasions when I have wanted to treat a nuc from the front I have just tapped the top and turned the unit sideways while inserting the outlet and the OA sublimates from the side of the vessel.
Johno


----------



## lmannyr

johno said:


> Beeman2009, you have to search Amazon and ebay for this type of thermocouple in the link below.
> https://www.amazon.com/Extech-TP870...8-152&keywords=type+k+multimeter+thermocouple
> Johno


So when I get the above thermocouple, I cut the yellow piece off and attach those ends to the myopic correct?


----------



## johno

Imannyr, you can cut the cable of the thermocouple as short as you need it then split the the woven sheath expose the 2 inner cables the carefully remove the insulation. The green colored wire can go to#7 and the red to #8
Johno


----------



## lmannyr

Thank you sir.


----------



## lmannyr

Is this coupling ok? 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-1-2-in-Copper-Pressure-C-x-C-Coupling-with-Stop-C600/100345557

And what do I use to make the bottom? A 1 1/2" cap and cut the sides off?


----------



## cyou

Lburou said:


> Yes, the MYPIN TA4 RNR is the PID Johno recommends.
> 
> 
> 
> This REX-C100 does not power the heater directly, you need, just as Johno cautioned, a relay to power the heater with this unit.


Lburou REX-C100 is what PRO-VAP is using and relay output can handle 3A, I don't think PRO-VAP is using SSR, MYPIN's TA4 price is about four times more. So if you just want to invest more money in it its up to you.


----------



## johno

The mypin controller contacts are rated at 5A, It aiso can ouput in C or F and it has a smaller profile than the Rex and therefore it is easier to find a cheap box to fit it all into. That is the reason that I use it.
Johno


----------



## lmannyr

MoCap has many different sizes available. What size is best to have a good fit using the 1 1/4 coupling or 1 1/2 pipe. Thanks.


----------



## johno

Imannyr the MHSP 1.306/1.622 works for 11/4" copper couplings. However if you use something else you will need to measure the inside diameter of what you are using then match it to Mocaps sizes. MHSP 1.306 is the small end diameter measurement which is a little smaller by about 0.1" for the 11/4" coupling so you should look and see which size would suit you.
Johno


----------



## Biermann

Hello All,

Just a quick update on my OAV. 

It is the best improvement I have made to bee health! With only four hives, time would sound like unimportant, but my experience is, it does matter, because with inadequate tools one seems to push jobs ahead and not do them when needed.

Now I can treat my four hives in 1o minutes, 5 to get tools and charges ready and 5 to do the job.

One hint for the mocap plugs. I use thus: 1.187/1.437 HOLLOW SILICONE PLUG, RED-OXIDE order # MHSP1.187/1.437 and the space in the cap is not sufficient for a 3gram charge. I cut the first plug further open with a sharp knife, but it looked ugly.

Then I found the trick to do this proper and clean: I drilled a piece of 2x4 through with a 1 1/4" Forstner bit (1 3/8" will probably work too) so the plug fits inside, set it on my little garage drill press and opened the plug up to 3/4" with a Forstner bit. Run the bit at high speed and it nicely machines the plug out. One can adjust depth and width to give you the proper charge amount not needing any other measuring tool. 

Cheers, Joerg


----------



## lmannyr

johno said:


> Imannyr the MHSP 1.306/1.622 works for 11/4" copper couplings. However if you use something else you will need to measure the inside diameter of what you are using then match it to Mocaps sizes. MHSP 1.306 is the small end diameter measurement which is a little smaller by about 0.1" for the 11/4" coupling so you should look and see which size would suit you.
> Johno


Thank you johno. All parts are ether on hand or ordered except for the copper brazing rod and 3/16" copper tubing. I checked Home depot, Lowes, and Ace Hardware (online) and none carry the 3/16 copper tubing. I may have to order online and eat the shipping unless anyone has other ideas on where to get it from. Thanks.


----------



## Biermann

Hello Imannyr,

I don't know where you are, but I found 3/16 tube hanging on the wall of my local Napa store and got 4" for free since we buy lots of parts from the good man. Just a hint.


----------



## lmannyr

Biermann said:


> Hello Imannyr,
> 
> I don't know where you are, but I found 3/16 tube hanging on the wall of my local Napa store and got 4" for free since we buy lots of parts from the good man. Just a hint.


I'm in Florida. I'll check NAPA tomorrow. Thanks for the tip. On the brazing rod....is this what I need?

https://www.amazon.com/Bernzomatic-...1540944040&sr=8-5&keywords=copper+brazing+rod

Thanks


----------



## Biermann

Sorry, I can't help on that, we TIG weld ours and use only a small amount of copper filling.

Cheers,


----------



## lmannyr

I don't have a welder of any sorts. 

I'll be using a MAPP torch to braze the the parts but unsure of the rod to buy. Is it sil phos? 

Will this work with the MAPP torch? 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/MagTorch-Premium-12-in-Bronze-Brazing-Rod-MT300WB/300572228

Thanks


----------



## WTS

You need a silver brazing rod. I used Harris Stay-Silv 15 Brazing Rods 15% Silver Solder.
I couldn't find it in the big box stores. It will work with MAPP.


----------



## divin

Hello:

I wanted to thank everyone involved with this forum for all of the great work. The team effort has been excellent in the evolution of this design.

I read the entire thread, and have drawn some of my own conclusions in putting together my version, which I will share below. Here are some thoughts that occurred to me:

1. The use of a PID is really overkill and undue complexity. A PID shines where very tight control of a temperature is required. In this case, it just needs to be 'hot enough' with some protection against overheating. I therefore chose to use employ a simple fixed snap thermostat. I used a thermostat with a 230 Deg. C setppint (446 Deg. F). This was at least mentioned earlier in the thread.

2. There is some value in being able to see the temperature. Others have talked about watching the temperature to determine when the vaporization is complete, and to check on when it has recovered sufficiently for the next load. The PID controller provides this, but a much simpler digital thermometer can do this function just as well, so that is what I used.

3. To provide a positive indication of when the unit is hot enough, I incorporated an LED that turns on when the thermostat is satisfied. This alone is enough for operation (without the digital thermometer) if an even simpler configuration is desired.

4. I included a toggle switch for power just for convenience.

5. I decided to use the machined aluminum bottom plug approach. Nothing precludes the brazed copper bottom, but the aluminum was just easier for me because I have a metal lathe. This approach has the added benefit that there are no screw heads protruding into the bottom of the bowl.  My bottom plug is 3/8" thick with 1/4" inside the coupler and 1/8 outside. It is a slight press fit, but I also tapped holes for 2 flat-head screws to hold it.

For reference, here is a complete list of my parts, sources, and costs:

1-1/4" Copper Coupler ($5)
Local plumbing supply (Furgeson)

Temperature Switch (230C), $7.00 pack of 3:
https://www.amazon.com/KSD301-Temperature-Switch-Thermostat-Celsius/dp/B00X77RO20

Digital Thermometer TM-902C [optional], (China $3.60) - Comes with thermocouple
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TM-902C-Di...ngle-Input-Thermocouple-Probe-nw/232903215251

Mocap Plugs:
MHSP1.306/1.622
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SW121T2
($22 + $9.30 shipping, for 5 pcs)

3/16 copper tubing (local - Ace Hardware $2/ft)
1-1/4" copper coupler (local - Lowes)

Stove Gasket: ($8.95)
https://www.amazon.com/Midwest-Hearth-Replacement-Gasket-Woodburning/dp/B0190YY782

Band Heater, Plastic Process Equipment MX15003 ($10.85 ea. + $15 shipping)
http://www.ppe.com/preord.htm

Indicator Light: ($2)
https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-24V-Amber/dp/B000K2IKPK
choose green, 120V

Shallow electrical box ($2.60)
Lowes

Blank Electrical Cover ($1.78)
Lowes

Toggle Switch ($3.32)
Lowes

1/8" x 3/4" x 7" Aluminum Bar (handle, $5 for 3')
Lowes

Custom Made Bottom Plug (1.5" Al Rod)

Total Cost (includes 5 Mocap Plugs) ~=$96 (~$25 of that was shipping)

I have included some photos of the assembly process and finished product. I attached the thermometer to the junction box with velcro such that it can be removed easily when you gain confidence that the thermal switch / LED is adequate.

A test run revealed good performance... Thanks again for the great cooperative spirit !

BTW - When my test run was complete, there was a fair amount of OA deposited on the inside of the Mocap plug. This was undoubtedly condensation of vapors that hit the 'cold' plug on the way out. I don't know if tapping on the top after vaporization is 'complete' would allow these to fall back in and re-vaporize... Anyone have thoughts on this?


----------



## johno

Well divin you have a vaporizer, However I went in that direction about a year ago and decided it was more work and less gain. I did not have a metal lathe available so had to fix the device to the bottom of an all copper vessel which was a pain, and used red and green LED's for indication, At that time I built the unit out of 1" pipe but ended up trashing the thing. One reason was that there were push on connectors underneath the bowl that I was not thrilled about. But if is cost that is the main criteria one could always use the Rex temp controller which is probably around the same cost as the thermal switch plus the temperature indicator. But still you have a vaporizer and did it your way.
Johno


----------



## johno

The problem with the condensation of the OA in the inside of the cap I solve by running my 1/2 teaspoon measure around on the inside of the cap before loading it. The measuring spoon that I use is a neat fit to the inside of the cap so the stuff sticking to the sides comes off very easily.
Johno


----------



## divin

Johno:

I was not so concerned with removing the OA residual from that cap, but rather, the fact that it was not expended during the process (hence, effectively under-dosing the hive). Perhaps the "underdose" is trivial, but there seemed to be a fair amount. The next time, I'll take a picture or measure how much is there.

divin


----------



## johno

DivinI generally dose 3 to 3.5 grams per treatment as I want to be sure I get a good dose of OA vapor into every colony so that 1/2 spoon is heaped and sometimes more is added. I am sure the condensed OA will be much less than 1/2 a gram.
Johno


----------



## Lburou

divin, I appreciate the time you took to describe what you did, provide links & then post those pictures. You have shown a couple ideas I couldn't have imagined on my own.


----------



## DUX4LIFE

Ok, My 1/2"x1 1/2" copper plug came in. It was to loose for an interference fit. I went ahead and tried my idea of tapping the plug vertically and horizontally for the exhaust. I used a number 10 tap and die set for the 3/16 copper. The horizontal piece worked ok as I had 3/8" or more to play with but the vertical piece didn't seem tight. I ended up brazing both pieces in after threading them. The plug was also brazed in with Mapp gas. I have never brazed before but it is really simple. Now waiting on my pid and heater. Which size Mocap do I need for 1 1/2" PIPE? Looking at the 1.306-1.622. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SW121T2/?coliid=I34CI0GW5TG2K2&colid=101NBC8BTRMKO&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it


----------



## DUX4LIFE

lmannyr said:


> I don't have a welder of any sorts.
> 
> I'll be using a MAPP torch to braze the the parts but unsure of the rod to buy. Is it sil phos?
> 
> Will this work with the MAPP torch?
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/MagTorch-Premium-12-in-Bronze-Brazing-Rod-MT300WB/300572228
> 
> Thanks


This worked great https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016C2ONKC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## lmannyr

DUX4LIFE said:


> This worked great https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016C2ONKC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


THANKs!!

My neighbor brazed it for me using his borrowed O/A torch. Almost done with the build. Need to wire and waiting the MOCAPs.


----------



## DUX4LIFE

Just won 6 of the PPE Heater Bands MX15013 120V 300W. Now I can finish one I figure out which MOCAP to get.


----------



## Lburou

aiannar974 said:


> Copper work hardens fast. Have you tried bending it with something filling it? I have used sugar in the past for a put put boat. Clamp one end shut, fill, clamp, bend and cut off the ends. Also, water may work.


Great suggestion! I put salt in a brass tube and bent it like this:


















It worked! Thank you!


----------



## ptwat

lmannyr said:


> So when I get the above thermocouple, I cut the yellow piece off and attach those ends to the myopic correct?


I reused the yellow connector and ground the connectors to a width that fits under the clamping screws on the PID controller. I felt like yellow connector provided more strain relief on the thin thermocouple
wires than clamping them directly under the PID screws.


----------



## yotebuster1200

ptwat said:


> lmannyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> So when I get the above thermocouple, I cut the yellow piece off and attach those ends to the myopic correct?
> 
> 
> 
> I reused the yellow connector and ground the connectors to a width that fits under the clamping screws on the PID controller. I felt like yellow connector provided more strain relief on the thin thermocouple
> wires than clamping them directly under the PID screws.
Click to expand...

I wouldnt be to worried about it. Those wires should ever move once you get it put back together.


----------



## lmannyr

Just tested mine today for the first time. 1.5 min to reach 450F from 78-80F. 

Thank you johno. I treated 5 hives tonight as a test. I couldn’t keep up with it. Did All 5 in less than ten min from setup to breakdown. 

Headed to the yard with 25 hives on Monday have an inverter and 100 ft cord to run off truck battery. 

Thanks again.


----------



## snapper1d

Buy one from johno or get a provap 110 or build one yourself because these are they way to go.I did an OAV on my hives today and if I had the money I would pay for mine a second time because they really saved me a lots of work and time.I would never even consider using a wand again at all.


----------



## johno

It is good yo see so many beekeepers making their own device and treating with OAV, but I wish to remind you that it is just a tool in the fight against the mite and is not the silver bullet that cures all. Mites appear to behave differently in different times of the year and in different locations and the only thing we really know about our treatments is that when OA crystals get onto a mite the mite dies so the trick I believe is to treat enough to do this and the only proving ground is a long winter and low losses.
Johno


----------



## snapper1d

No its not the silver bullet but at my age it has become mine and my bees life saver.When and if something else better comes along I will go for it.Right now my bees are a part of my livelihood up until I cant go any longer.Wands are so slow that I was at the point of almost giving up.I thought I was going to have a helper but that didnt work out so right now its still jut me and this new vaporizer is an excelent tool.


----------



## johno

What I am trying to get across is that you have to make sure that the job of killing your mites is well done and not to accept a treatment here and there to create miracles, This device is just a useful tool that makes the job easier but the beekeeper has still to make sure that the job has been well done.
Johno


----------



## ptwat

yotebuster1200 said:


> I wouldnt be to worried about it. Those wires should ever move once you get it put back together.


I used it because it is an extra layer of protection and it is free.


----------



## snapper1d

johno said:


> What I am trying to get across is that you have to make sure that the job of killing your mites is well done and not to accept a treatment here and there to create miracles, This device is just a useful tool that makes the job easier but the beekeeper has still to make sure that the job has been well done.
> Johno


Easier and quicker is exactly what I am saying.I can get the job of killing mites done with it easier and quicker.


----------



## DUX4LIFE

I am happy to report that my vaporizer works great. Still waiting on the MOCAP plugs. I won 6 of these on ebay," PPE Heater Bands MX15013 120V 300W". They are 2" long and 1 1/2" in diameter. They don't quite fit on the 1 1/2" copper pipe with the factory band but I will use 2 hose clamps to tighten them all the way around. 
It took about 5 minutes for the unit to come up to temp at 500 degrees but it only fell to around 390 when it was finished. I may turn the heat down some. Anyone have any ideas about where I should go with this?
It seems the 1/2" copper plug idea works well with the exhaust vented through it rather than the sidewall. 
I will do another test run when the caps come in. My wooden stopper idea wasn't to bright. 
Thanks to all who have made this thread a reality.


----------



## Lburou

DUX4LIFE said:


> Ok, My 1/2"x1 1/2" copper plug came in. It was to loose for an interference fit. I went ahead and tried my idea of tapping the plug vertically and horizontally for the exhaust...


 Can you post a picture of your idea? I've been thinking about the same idea, I think. TIA


----------



## DUX4LIFE

Here is where I'm at with it. MOCAP plugs came in and they are a bit small. I just ordered 5 more of the next size up. I will make another model out of the 1 1/4 coupler and use these for that model. 
A couple of things:
1. It tales 5 minutes and 30 seconds to come up to temp. (450 degrees)
2. It takes 10-15 seconds to Sublimate everything.
3. The temp drops to about 370 degrees and then starts climbing. 
4. With the smaller Plugs I have to put them into the bowl until they are flush to keep them from poppong out under pressure.
5. The exhaust was about 2"long and started to plug up so i cut it to 1 5/8" So far so good.
6. You can get burned through cheap welding gloves...

SO...
1. Oxalic acid sublimates between 315 and 372 degrees.
2. I will turn the PID down to 400 degrees and see how that fares.


----------



## DUX4LIFE

Lburou said:


> Can you post a picture of your idea? I've been thinking about the same idea, I think. TIA


Center the vertical tube if you do this. I had it off center, closer to the sidewall and found that the Mocap would hit it. I pryed it away from the side a bit and it is fine. This probably happened because of the small cap going into the bowl too far.


----------



## aiannar974

Looks really nice and professional. How did you connect the copper exhaust pipe? I see it goes through the bottom plug but did you solder it in?

Anthony


----------



## DUX4LIFE

I threaded it in first but in the end I brazed everything.


----------



## johno

Dux4life, if it is taking 5 minutes to reach 450F there must be something wrong. With a 275 Watt band heater I reach 450F in a minute and a half. Are you not working your unit i n C then the correct temperature would be 230C. At 450F or 230C 2 grams takes around 20 seconds to sublimate. You could also get some fiber glass rope and wrap it around the heated bowl which increases the efficiency and also will prevent chances of accidental burns. Otherwise it is a nice looking unit.
Johno


----------



## DUX4LIFE

I changed the setting to F instead of Celsius. I think it is taking longer because of the half inch thick copper plug in the bottom. Sublimination takes around 10-15 seconds though. Today my new Mocaps arrived. The bigger size works better. I set the pID to 400 degrees and it still takes 5:20 to reach it. However the temp only drops to 380ish. Don't overfill the plug or it will build up too much pressure. I also built smaller one out of 1 1/4": coupler and a cap. Warm up time is shorter but sublimation tiem is about 30-40 seconds.


----------



## DUX4LIFE

Here they are in action...


----------



## aiannar974

Is anyone using a car battery or a deep cycle battery with an inverter with this type of vaporizing. If anyone is, what type of battery and amp hours battery is being used and how many shots can be expected after a full charge?

Anthony


----------



## johno

You will get as many shots or more with a band heater vaporizer than any of the pan types, although the band heater type uses twice the power the job gets done in about a third of the time it takes a pan type. The other point is the temperature controller will not be on all of the time and may only run at a 50% cycle. So If we had a good 100 ampere hour battery, 50 ampere hours would give you 2 hours of use at 25 amps per hour even if we disregard the temp controller cycling on and off so that would give an excess of 100 hives of course there is a little thing called Peukerts law that will mess up these figures a little but I only use 100 of the 120 minutes in 2 hours.
Johno


----------



## Biermann

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is achieved by the 'S' stile vapor tube, compared to a straight 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" straight 3/16" vapor tube? The S type seams to me much longer and will (could) cool down at the end and give crystallization.

My 'straight shooter' gives a vapor barrage as in the video, so why have the longer tube?

@dux4life, nice clips, hope your neighbor's don't mind.

Joerg


----------



## johno

I think it is because the Provap has that bent tube so that you can easily treat from the entrance, why anyone would want to treat from the entrance beats me.
Johno


----------



## Biermann




----------



## crofter

My take on this is that a longer path in contact with the heat from the vessel puts more heat into the nozzle preventing crystallization plugging: straight out the side puts more area in contact with the outside air, cooling it off. Having the inside entrance to the tube baffled or turned down also prevents dumping of the raw cold charge immediately into the discharge tube at the moment of flipping the vaporizer when filling. I have done a few hundred vaporizations and the discharge nozzle is clean as a whistle.


----------



## little_john

A head's-up for anyone tempted to purchase one of the latest batch of el cheapo Rex C-100 PID controllers from China. There are (at least) two types: one made by Berme, the other 'RKC'. I have both types. The Berme is fine - everything works - but the RKC has always refused to Autotune, and it's Lock/Unlock feature has never worked either.

Today I found out why ...


> REX-C100 has two types: only K input, and Thermocouple and RTD input. If only K input type, the max temperature is 999°C, and don't have self-tuning or LCK function
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/REX...ture-controller-with-K-input/32692208778.html


So be advised: the 'K-type, SSR output only' are dirt cheap, but have been pruned down to minimal functions.
LJ


----------



## Cjj

I made 3 with the S type tube 2 of them cracked at the bottom bend ,I think with the high heat and the weakening of the tube from the bending caused the tube to crack over time I replaced all 3 with a straight tube and have not had any problem with the tube clogging up


----------



## DUX4LIFE

Biermann said:


> Sorry for my ignorance, but what is achieved by the 'S' stile vapor tube, compared to a straight 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" straight 3/16" vapor tube? The S type seams to me much longer and will (could) cool down at the end and give crystallization.
> 
> My 'straight shooter' gives a vapor barrage as in the video, so why have the longer tube?
> 
> @dux4life, nice clips, hope your neighbor's don't mind.
> 
> Joerg


Nah, It was a rainy day and everyone was still at work. Probably 50-75 feet to their house.


----------



## DUX4LIFE

Has anyone ever tried to apply the vapor from the inner cover slot. I thought about trying a method similar to one I found on the web. I was thinking about having the exhaust go straight down. I will try using a 3/8" tube about 1/2" or so from the bottom of the bowl and pluging the end. Then I plan on drilling 4-6 holes 1/16" in a radius just above the plug so the vapor could escape between the inner cover and the top brood box in multiple directions before cooling and drifting down. May not work but it would be interesting to try.


----------



## Lburou

little_john said:


> A head's-up for anyone tempted to purchase one of the latest batch of el cheapo Rex C-100 PID controllers...
> LJ


I couldn't get my C-100 controller to work at all...The MYPIN TA4 RNR worked first try.


----------



## pjigar

Here is the build video for the one I build.


----------



## little_john

DUX4LIFE said:


> Has anyone ever tried to apply the vapor from the inner cover slot. I thought about trying a method similar to one I found on the web. I was thinking about having the exhaust go straight down. I will try using a 3/8" tube about 1/2" or so from the bottom of the bowl and pluging the end. Then I plan on drilling 4-6 holes 1/16" in a radius just above the plug so the vapor could escape between the inner cover and the top brood box in multiple directions before cooling and drifting down. May not work but it would be interesting to try.


FWIW, that's very similar to a method I'm trialling at the moment:



'tis still at the construction stage ...
LJ


----------



## DUX4LIFE

little_john said:


> FWIW, that's very similar to a method I'm trialling at the moment:
> 
> 
> 
> 'tis still at the construction stage ...
> LJ


Keep us posted. I have enough stuff to make about 4 more.


----------



## crofter

Interesting idea! You would have to be quick to hit the hole after flipping the charge in, wouldn't you?


----------



## DUX4LIFE

Yep.


----------



## little_john

Hi Frank
What I'm working on is a non-inverting vapouriser - a "push a button and walk away" job. I'll start a separate thread (tomorrow, as I need to take another photo) as I don't want to detract from, or create any confusion with Johno's excellent design.
LJ


----------



## aiannar974

Has anyone had their car or truck batteries fail prematurely from drawing so many amps. Looking at this website, the battery needs to be pretty large. I don't know how this would change with a running vehicle.

https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tools/calculator-sizing-a-battery-to-a-load.html


----------



## johno

Aiannar I do not think the load from a vaporizer is going to damage any vehicles battery, although if one was to treat 30 to 40 hives you could flatten it to the extent that you could not start your vehicle. Batteries deteriorate over time especially if not always completely charged so after time the battery loses capacity until it will no longer crank the engine. If you have an older battery like the one in my pickup truck then you idle the engine while treating and as most alternators provide more than 30 amps you will not have a problem.
Johno


----------



## robassett

Lead acid batteries really don't like to be fully discharged, particularly car batteries. Marine / RV batteries are designed to better tolerate deep discharges, but most of my car battery replacements have happened within a month after running the battery flat accidentally. However, car batteries won't be damaged by high current draw; after all, they are designed to run the starter, which draws a high current. 

So for a car battery, a high load won't hurt it at all, unless it becomes deeply discharged. And like Johno said, with the engine running you should have power to spare. 

---Robin


----------



## pjigar

Better power source is a 2-cycle portable power generator. Easy to carry and unlimited capacity if you carry I jerry can full of gas with you. I tried battery and gave up since they weigh a ton and not enough capacity.


----------



## johno

At my home yard I can reach all my hives with a 100 ft extension cord, If you drive to your outyards you should be able to get your vehicle close enough to use your vehicles battery for an inverter and an extension cord. If you cannot get close enough I wonder how you harvest your honey.
Johno


----------



## tnnewbe

Being more of a mechanical than an electrical guy I have a question for those of you that are more knowledgeable than myself. From what I have read electronics are sensitive to power spikes. I have been using a 1500 watt inverter and hooking it up to my truck battery leaving the engine running. This works really well but I have an apiary that would be difficult to get my truck to if some hard rains had occurred. Is the Mypin controller sensitive enough to the spikes that would come out of the cheap Harbor Freight generator? Most of the time it’s not a major issue but would be nice to have a backup as my truck is not getting any younger.
Ken


----------



## johno

Tnnewbe, I doubt that there will be any major spikes from the cheap genset, the Mypin controllers have a switching power supply I think that will allow the controller to operate from 90 to 260 volts so I do not see the fluctuations of voltage that may occur doing any damage to the controller. That is strictly my opinion and if you do blow up the controller you have lost about $24 
Johno


----------



## tnnewbe

Johno
I understand that if it blows up that it's my loss and responsibility. 8>) I appreciate your answer and explanation. I have an extra Mypin controller if I do blow one up so it’s not like I would be down for long.
Thanks
Ken


----------



## johno

Ken I do not think you will have any problems but electronic gadgets do fail and if it should fail while you are using the generator you would tend to suspect the generator was the cause even if the generator had nothing to do with the failure. Fortunately the most expensive part of the vaporizer is quite cheap.
Johno


----------



## Cjj

I have been using the cheap generator from harbor freight for two years now and have not Had any problems with it , I have been treating 100 hives without a problem


----------



## tnnewbe

Thanks Johno and Cjj
I will pick me up one of the HF generators but also realize that I might get the only one that will give a problem. But as John said, all the parts are not expensive. I'm only treating 30 hives but treating is no longer a time consuming process. Thanks to all that have contributed to this thread and especially to John for starting it.
Ken


----------



## laketrout

Johno im building another bowl for my own easy vap and wondered how much of the 3/16 tube you let protrude inside the bowl if any ,on my current bowl I let about a 1/2'' protruding inside ,wonder if it has any affect on the vaporization compared to soldering it flush


----------



## johno

Laketrout I have the 3/16" tubing flush with the inside, it makes the cleaning of the bowl easier that way. I have found the height of this tube above the bottom is more important and should be at least 11/4" above the bottom, I make mine 13/8" above the bottom. Some folks seem to prefer the tube coming out much lower like the European model which could be done but I feel complicates matters and will make cleaning out the tube much more difficult.
Johno


----------



## laketrout

Thats what I will do flush to the bowl and one of the two dimensions from the bottom , thanks for the help


----------



## ptwat

I recently finished my second version of johno's temperature controlled vaporizer. This is actually the first version refitted with my latest changes. I simplified some things and added a 3D printed box for the electronics. I also routed the delivery tube out the bottom of the bowl and inside routed it up the side of the bowl to keep the vapor heated until it exits the bowl. With the tube coming out the bottom I can treat easily through the hive entrance or through an opening in the hive body itself near the top. I used stainless tubing because it is stronger than copper tube if I want to let go of the controller completely while it hangs on the side of the hive. Stainless also does not draw heat out of the OA vapor as it passes through it as much as copper. I added a switch on top in case I want to set the vaporizer down while I work on a hive. I have a 5A fuse on the bottom to protect the electronics and heater. There is some debate about where the OA should enter the hive and my thought on that is that I can use either method and the bees fan the vapor all over the hive using either method anyway. Frankly, I worry more about cooking bees with the vapor near the tube exit. To each his own... The bowl is double walled for heat capacity and strength except near the top so that the Mocap plug fits better. I have not had any issues with the tube plugging with OA. I helped a fellow beekeeper build one this way and he has not had plugging issues either.


----------



## laketrout

my mistake i see its the band heater itself


----------



## ptwat

(Second attempt at this message) The band clamp for the band heater has two little spot welds that forms the loops holding the two small rods with the threaded holes for the clamp screw. I tightened the clamp screw enough to break one of the spot welds making the clamp almost useless. I had to turn the band clamp inside out to hold the rod when tightening the clamp screw. I now routinely turn the clamp inside out to compress the tack weld when tightening the clamp making the clamp stronger.


----------



## DUX4LIFE

ptwat said:


> (Second attempt at this message) The band clamp for the band heater has two little spot welds that forms the loops holding the two small rods with the threaded holes for the clamp screw. I tightened the clamp screw enough to break one of the spot welds making the clamp almost useless. I had to turn the band clamp inside out to hold the rod when tightening the clamp screw. I now routinely turn the clamp inside out to compress the tack weld when tightening the clamp making the clamp stronger.


I threw my clamps away and went to SS hose clamps.


----------



## johno

Spot the difference, one is a lot easier to build than the other and is the other any better.
Johno


----------



## johno

Further to the discussion about treating hives very low to the ground I think once the OA is loaded if you are quick enough you could insert the device into the entrance sideways you will still get the vapor burn off without much loss of vapor. If you removed the bowl with the aluminum strip and bolted it onto the bottom of the wooden block I do not know if that would help any. If you use migratory lids I would definitely look at some way of treating from the top.
Johno


----------



## johno

To answer some questions about the vaporizer with the outlet coming out of the bottom, Is this necessary, No I do not think so unless your hives are very low and you want to treat from the entrance or from the bottom area of a low hive. Having said that I just built it to show that it could be done, made from the standard 11/4" copper coupling with a flat piece of copper welded to the bottom of the coupling. The 3/16" OD copper tube needs to be about 31/2" long and one end ground to a 45 degree angle, this end is welded inside the coupling about 1/2" from the top once that is done the 3/16" clearance hole is made near the edge of the flat copper and is pushed over the 3/16" pipe until it rests on the bottom of the coupling invert this over a brick with holes in it then weld as normal then trim and grind the excess and carefully bend the 3/16" copper to face outwards and then drill your attachment hole in the center of the bottom and continue to fit the band heater and thermocouple and away you go.
Johno


----------



## aiannar974

Johno - How long do you mocaps last?


----------



## johno

Aiannar974,
the 4 I am using on my 40 colonies that I treat around 12 times each a year have lasted the year and still look OK I had some from the year before that were quite worn down as I was only using 2 and I eventually put then on a disc sander and tapered them a little and I could still use them, I am looking at some other caps that seem to withstand the high temperature better and am waiting for some to arrive so that I can get them out there and see how they work out in the long term. I find the FE oxide pigment in the mocaps might also contribute to the film that forms on the bottom of the copper bowl and as the others I am looking at are not pigmented. Of coarse you should remove the cap as soon as the temp goes above 400 odd F leaving the caps on longer than needed does not do them any good. But even on the other band heater vaporizer the O rings on the cap have to be replaced from time to time, hope that answers your question.
Johno


----------



## Cjj

Johno I did make 3 with the tube on the bottom of the bowl , the bend is a weak point 2 out of the 3 I made broke at the bend over time


----------



## aiannar974

Do you still grind the inside out a little more on the caps you buy?

Looking forward to hearing about the other caps. 

I was thinking about using a 1-1/4" copper cap that I flare the edges out on and then braze a 1-1/4 pipe inside that sticks out a 1/4" or so and then put a high temp silicone o-ring around the pipe and tucked against the flare. The 1-1/4" pipe and pipe cap would then slip into the units 1-1/4" coupling. this would mean only the o-ring needs replaced.


----------



## sc-bee

johno said:


> I am looking at some other caps that seem to withstand the high temperature better and am waiting for some to arrive so that I can get them out there and see how they work out in the long term


Do you think the OA will stick less to the new trial caps? I tried treating some 5 frame nucs which supposedly would be 1/2 gram OA. Cant really tell with sticking so I will increase a little...................


----------



## Lburou

Johno, with respect to preparing the top opening to fit the MOCAP, we have done it this way...

Using 1.5" couplings and a 1.875" ball for a trailer hitch, we belled the top opening in a vice to fit the MOCAPS very nicely as shown here:


----------



## johno

Hey Lburou, once I have welded the bottoms on I clean the inside edge with the tool on my pipe cutter then use a 4lb hammer to genly tap all around the bottom edge while the other end is on my trucks towing ball to give them a slight bell. The caps that fit into the 11/4" coupling do not need grinding and will take more than 3 grams of OA and no matter what caps you use you will always get some OA condensing on any type of cap. The new caps I am getting will need a bit of testing but it is not the time for treating so I will only know how they work out by summer I guess. They are from unpigmented silicone and are a little harder than the mocap ones and do not appear to wear down on the edges like the Mocap ones do. Cjj I think the bottom outlets have the full weight of the device on them while hanging in the hole whereas the side outlet ones do not as the bowl comes to rest against the side of the box. So I think there are more cons than pros for a bottom outlet.
Johno


----------



## hydrocynus

All, oxalic acid sublimation temperature is about 160ºC. Would it be possible to just plug the bottom of the copper tube with Lead (melting temperature is about 330ºC? Not sure what the impact would be on the bees and not sure OA and lead would react together. Anyone tried that?


----------



## johno

I think common solder or lead will melt around the 200C area or 400F that is above sublimation temperature but you will have to temperature control pretty close to sublimation temperature which will slow the sublimation time down considerably unless maybe you run about 500 to 600 watts of power you will also have to have a pretty good temperature controller that will not overshoot your set point otherwise the bottom will fall out of your treatment process. the reason the set points on the band heater vaporizer is set so high is to create a heat reservoir as the input power of 250 to 300 watts cannot meet the heat required to sublimate the OA because of the latent heat required to change the state from solid to vapor. You will need to make your joints in the copper bowl with at least a copper to copper alloy such as Silphos. Now I would wonder if you could produce lead oxalate and I would guess I would not want that in my hives.
Johno


----------



## Biermann

Hello All,

The plan is to build 110VAC OA Vaporizers and sell them locally. I am not advertising this here, just want to let you all know that I will have a good stock of MOPAR MHSP1.187/1.437 hollow plugs, drilled to hold a max. of 3gram OA.

I can sell extra caps for CAD4.00 plus shipping if anyone has interest. The same for PPE band heaters, MX13705 and PPE thermo couples, WTCK-136. Please PM me for prices on thus items.

Also, I am planning to have a standard manual with each unit for info on how-to and safety etc. and I can paste this here if anyone is interested, please let me know if this would be appropriate.

Best regards, Joerg


----------



## Lburou

hydrocynus said:


> All, oxalic acid sublimation temperature is about 160ºC. Would it be possible to just plug the bottom of the copper tube with Lead (melting temperature is about 330ºC? Not sure what the impact would be on the bees and not sure OA and lead would react together. Anyone tried that?


Three things:

1) My friends and I decided against lead because of the unknown threat to us and the bees. Acid will have some effect on lead and I don't want to be around it when it is heated in an acid bath to discover the effects.

2) We cast aluminum in the bottom of a copper coupling. It leaked. Aluminum can expand up to +/- 12% and copper less than half that...so there is a problem there. This problem will result in leaks.

3) We were fairly successful with Lucas Milhaupt AL822 sealing aluminum plugs in the bottom of 1.5" couplings, but it takes more skill than I can muster to be consistent, and AL 822 is expensive. The AL 822 melts at 800-900 F. I think silphos melts at around 1200+ F. That said, we have found Blue Demon triple play brazing rod fairly easy to work with, and it has a lower melting point between 730-800 F, and at a much lower price. Clean, clean, clean the surfaces and pre heat for an easy joint. Buy it  here.

Hope that helps.


----------



## little_john

hydrocynus said:


> All, oxalic acid sublimation temperature is about 160ºC. Would it be possible to just plug the bottom of the copper tube with Lead (melting temperature is about 330ºC? Not sure what the impact would be on the bees and not sure OA and lead would react together. Anyone tried that?


Th use of lead - as opposed to solder - is a method of joining brass and copper together for VOA purposes I've successfully employed for some time now. The procedure I use is to first 'tin' the areas to be joined with common-or-garden 60/40 solder, then wipe this off as completely as possible. Then, using thin strips of lead cut from roof flashing, make the joint somewhat generously using an acid flux. After washing-down, the joint is then soak-tested at 250 ºC. No joint failures to date and no adverse effects on bees.

Brazing (or whatever term you guys over there use for 'bronze-melting') is - of course - a much preferable method of attachment providing you have an adequate source of heat. The big advantage of lead-melting is that a bog standard hand-held gas torch is adequate, whereas you may need to use MAPP gas (or better) for brazing.

If you should decide to use lead, than a reliable temperature controller is a MUST.
LJ


----------



## Lburou

little_john said:


> ...Brazing (or whatever term you guys over there use for 'bronze-melting') is - of course - a much preferable method of attachment providing you have an adequate source of heat. The big advantage of lead-melting is that a bog standard hand-held gas torch is adequate, whereas you may need to use MAPP gas (or better) for brazing...LJ


 Great advice on the details of preparing the materials with solder, thank you!

FWIW, the Blue Demon brazing rod melts with a common propane torch (3600 F). MAP gas is much faster, but the propane torch temps give me more time to recognize the best temps, whereas the MAP gas or Oxy torch gets too hot before I recognize it -melted copper, brass and aluminum very quickly. The propane torch and aluminum alloy rod working at about 750 F was satisfactory for us and was an economical way to get it done.


----------



## aiannar974

Lburou - You have not had any issues with the Blue Demon sticking to the copper? I went to the amazon link you provided and the responses to the questions made me think it would not work on copper. Anthony


----------



## hydrocynus

Awesome info guys. Thank you. I have a bunch of calibration weights laying around that are in surplus. I was thinking using the brass one to either plug the copper tube (press fit) or better, machine it on the lathe. Thicker walls and bottom should allow to keep a better temperature even after the OA is placed in the pit. It would be interesting to see what the exact temperature is when the OA sublimate and especially see what is the proportion of formic acid created if the temperature is too hot.


----------



## Lburou

aiannar974 said:


> Lburou - You have not had any issues with the Blue Demon sticking to the copper? I went to the amazon link you provided and the responses to the questions made me think it would not work on copper. Anthony


No problem. Search youtube for 'blue demon Triple play'' or some variant of that. The secret is cleaning and preheating. If it isn't clean, it won't stick (I'm using stainless brushes). Preheating makes the whole job easy as well, I'm using an electric hot plate to preheat the copper and monitoring it with an infrared thermometer. Watch this video HTH


----------



## Michiwood

Hello,
I'm building one right now and I have a quick question. I've read this post a few times and see where it's talked about adding an aluminum blank to the inside the bowl to help retain heat, was it decided this was beneficial and should be added or does it not need it? I'm using an 11/2 coupling with 275 watt heater. I have to thank all of you for the details and collaboration on this post, bunch of great beekeeper's.


----------



## johno

I doubt that an aluminum bottom has any advantage over a copper bottom except in a bulk manufacturing process, where the bottoms could be easily manufactured on a turret lathe. However I have had feedback from some beekeepers who have both my vaporizer and the other commercial vaporizer and who claim they do a third more hives with mine than the other in the same time. The other has an aluminum bottom and mine a copper bottom but in all fairness my caps are loaded and changed quicker than the other


----------



## Biermann

I have to agree with johno. We build some VAP's now too and I have experimented with alu plugs on both side and have gone back to welded copper bottom on 1 1/4" copper pipe with fitting mocaps.









It all is about weight (mass) and heat values and re-heat time. The additional weight of the plug of 44 gram (1.6 oz) needs to be heated by the heat band. The less weight you have and the faster the conductor is, the better.

My welder caps 20 chambers in 30 minutes if not faster, the disc gets punched in seconds. The machining was time consuming and the fit was not sealing good, because you work with to different materials.

Joerg


----------



## Michiwood

Thanks guys for the response! I greatly appreciate it. I will continue on without any aluminum. What you guys are saying makes since, Johno's would be faster due to less mass needing to be heated therefore recovery time should be quicker. I'll make sure to insulate it to help with consistency with temperatures.


----------



## Biermann

Hello All Vapo's,

this is now our final unit after many trials and changes and fine tuning.





















Let me know your comments.

Cheers, Joerg K.


----------



## little_john

If the handle was more-or-less in-line with the delivery nozzle, then you might find that rotation of the device would be more 'egonomically-friendly'. I did.
'best, LJ


----------



## mgolden

??Isn't it some advantage to be able to see the temp easily with display on the top? Can tell when charge vaporized and when can reload.

Could electrical cord be inside handle and come out the end of the handle???


----------



## Biermann

@ little_john - I assume you mean 'ergo' not 'ego' - we have them with both and it does not make a diff. particularly when the unit sits upside down to re-load.

@mgolden - I rest it normally upside down on the treated hive and having the cord come out of the handle would pull it down more. Or, one trips over it and it fly's to the ground.

Evolution is a constant.

Thanks, Joerg K.


----------



## Biermann

PM me for pricing.

Joerg K.


----------



## aiannar974

Has anyone used a 3/16” outside diameter outlet tube? I have some from an old faucet and it is a lot stiffer and kind of thick walled than the 1/4” tube I have that came in a coil.

Anthony


----------



## sc-bee

I am not a welder or solderer. Anyone ever consider this? Just curious...

https://www.jbweld.com/products/j-b-extremeheat


----------



## WTS

sc-bee, 
I love JB Weld. It is good stuff in my book.
I don't think that it will conduct the heat to the bottom of the cup where the thermocouple is.
That in itself will throw off your temps and over heat the OA.


----------



## aiannar974

Sorry my post above had a typo in it. I meant has anyone used a 3/8” od outlet tube. As mentioned it is thick walled. Ticker than a normal copper water pipe.

Anthony


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## johno

I started off using a 3/8" OD outlet but found due to the large size the flow of vapor was so fast that it spewed out unsublimated OA, I then went down to 1/4"and was still not happy then eventually settled on 3?16" outlet pipe. There is some 3/16" copper coated brake tubing available and it will weld to the coupling with stasilv but I have not tested it for clogging.


----------



## little_john

sc-bee said:


> I am not a welder or solderer. Anyone ever consider this? Just curious...
> 
> https://www.jbweld.com/products/j-b-extremeheat


JB-Weld withstands the heat ok - but doesn't expand to any significant degree (unlike copper) with a rise in temperature. I found that after a dozen or so heat-cool cycles (on different equipment to Johno's) the JB-Weld lifted off where it was attached to a relatively smooth surface. 
Suggest you try and find a guy who brazes - like an exhaust (muffler ?) shop - such a small joint shouldn't cost much, if you leave it with him until the next time he does some brazing.
LJ


----------



## sc-bee

Thanks guys I was just curious....


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## adson

I used JB weld ( regular stuff not high heat version ) to seal the seams of my copper dish OAV units
( made from copper pipe and flattened, using glow plugs) . they are about 3 years old and the seams 
are still sealed. I think you might be surprised how well this stuff works.


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## johno

Can anyone who has received white silicone caps share their views on the comparison between the white and red caps. It appears to me that the white caps are more temperature resistant than the red Mocap ones and do not seem to wear as much.
Johno


----------



## yotebuster1200

Do you have a link to the white caps?


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## johno

No, they are available by the hundred from Harman Corporation, I found them bought a hundred and have included one of the white caps with the vaporizers I have supplied since January 2019. They appear superior to the red ones but I would like some feedback before switching to the white Harman caps.


----------



## yotebuster1200

White or clear? I found clear ones on their website. I might try them out.


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## WTS

Johno,
Will you be offering the white Harman caps for sale?
I would like to try them myself and give you my feedback.


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## johno

Here are the two caps together, more white than clear I think. If I go in the white cap direction I could probably sell for about $2 each plus shipping. I have used the white cap for a while and have not seen any deterioration on the white cap, it seems a little harder to remove from the bowl when sublimation is complete but not really a problem. With the mocap caps there is also the red residue that comes off of the cap as they wear and get cleaned some of which if it gets into your OA could leave more residue in the bottom of the bowl.


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## Lburou

yotebuster1200 said:


> White or clear? I found clear ones on their website. I might try them out.


Do you have a link?


----------



## dott

question on thermal coupling wires. are the wires tied together or seperated under fender washer, also my wires a about 3' long do you cut them or just bundle them up?


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## yotebuster1200

I separate mine puting one wire on each side of the bolt. As long as the two wires are very close to the same imput temperature then it should be fine.


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## johno

Dott, the thermocouple end where the 2 wires are joined together go between the washer and the copper bowl. You can cut the cable much shorter if you like but you will have to remove the outer covering to get to the inner wires and then you will have to strip off the covering on the 2 wires just leaving maybe 1/4" of the metal conductors exposed which requires a little skill as the conductors are tiny. If you do this the green goes to #7 and the red to #8, if you have enough space in the box where you are putting the mypin controller you could just coil it up and leave the excess in the box If you do cut the cable do not throw it away as you can use it to make more thermocouples for spares or whatever just by stripping off the ends and twisting together the two metal strands.


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## Barhopper

John,
I did around 60 shots today with the new white caps I got from you this week. No sign or any deterioration or damage to any. I was using all eight in rotation but I liked them. Thanks.


----------



## johno

Thanks for the feedback Barhopper, The supplier seems unreliable but hopefully we can sort something out.


----------



## Cjj

John I sent you a PM
Thanks Chet


----------



## logicallycompromised

thank you Johno and the others that graciously shared their knowledge so i could complete this project. without your help and showing it was possible i may have never ventured down this path, thank you!

i enjoy making things beautiful through refinement, here is my take on it. 


















the cover i made from polyester body filler, the 3/16" line is steel and i think i would have preferred copper if i had to buy something. i had an issue with it being too long and clogging when the phase change of sublimation dropped the temperature too much to keep oxalic acid suspended in air; currently about 5/8" length. it now works well enough i will not improve it any further. the 1.5" copper pipe was wrapped with fiberglass and coated with some ceramic muffler adhesive i had. the pid controller was about 22$ the band heater came from china for about 4.5 dollars. i removed the t bolt hose clamp with the band heater and used some stainless wire to create a more aesthetic fit with the copper pipe. the 3/16" steel and copper bottom were brazed.

i think if i had pid controller setup better it could ramp up temperature quicker when phase change occurs and limit maybe even prevent clogging in the 3/16" tubing. some condition, which if temperature is below 330f it ramps under full power and only starts pull back after it gets over 400f or so. it works fine now but if i wanted it perfect i would investigate this more.


if i was not resourceful i would encourage others to buy the device Johno makes, your bees will thank you.


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## Biermann

Hello all OA Vappers, 

My final (for now) setup:














The 3/16 hard copper tube goes in about 3/8" above the bottom and curves up to the back side of the bowl. With this, any configuration can be treated, even from the top if the owner plugs the exit end of the tube, fills the tube with fine sand and bends the tube down to a 90° position. 

Joerg K.


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## dott

finish my unit using 1 1/4 copper pipe coupler and 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 band heater with a mypin controller. what temp should I be use for a set point? read thur the forms and it varies from 350 to 450. thanks


----------



## logicallycompromised

you will need to experiment with it to know better how efficient your system is.

oxalic acid sublimation occurs around 157c/315f. a goal should be to keep the temperature above this temperature for the full treatment, this will limit any clogging in nozzle. if you are doing smaller treatments you may be able to get by with around 380f or so. do some test runs and watch the nozzle end and pid temperature readout while being upwind and mask to be safe. my system requires me to be around 450f and sublimation still drops temperature below 315f. i assume it is an issue with the pid controller settings and/or a less efficient china band heater? it works and i am pleased but it takes maybe 45 seconds for a little over 1 gram; i will time it one day i just recall being disappointed at first when my biological 30 second clock was up and it was still vaporizing.


----------



## crofter

I notice you mention having done away with the original clamping mechanism of the band. That could cut down heat transfer rate (recovery time), requiring a bit higher maximum set point. Running the vessel a bit hotter initial temperature gives it a bit more thermal "flywheel". My bottom material is nearly 3/16" thick for that purpose. I am a bit slower for initial heat up but the period of the actual discharge is about the 30 second point. Pretty inconsequential details! 

The band heater models sure beat the pants off the wand type for speed. Especially so when doing multiple treatments as necessary when brood is present.


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## logicallycompromised

i agree with you good sir, the tension i got with twisting the stainless steel wire did not approach that the the clamp would provide. this may very well be a large part of my inefficiency. at some point if it has to come apart i will do a run with the t bolt clamp and compare. when i was making the determination to ditch the clamp i assembled with the wire and tried to rotate and slide the band heater, i was content with how tight it seemed to have formed the 40mm component to the 1.5" copper pipe. having said that, tighter is better for heat transfer.

i like the idea you implemented of using a larger heat sink, my bottom is just 1" copper pipe flattened so maybe .060" or so thick. if i can source some thicker copper i will heed your advice when i make a second one for a friend.

i do think mine heats up in under 3 minutes but never timed it but i also feel confident i can not deliver a treatment in 30 seconds in current configuration.


----------



## aiannar974

Maybe use a band clamp and then wire and take the clamp off. Also, does anyone thing heatsink paste will hold up? the stuff used to transfer heat from a power supply to an aluminum heatsink.


----------



## logicallycompromised

good idea, it would have resulted in a tighter bond than i have.
as for the thermal paste. i was going to use copper dust and some brake and caliper grease to make a paste as initial research suggested common pc thermal pastes are almost useless in the 400f environments we need them.

i did not make the paste as i thought i had a solid bond but at some point i will probably chase efficiency with the time for treatment and find myself adopting much of the advice that has been offered to me.


----------



## crofter

I have done a few industrial tank heat bands with giant band heaters. We used a heat transfer medium that in that case appeared to be like a thick clay filled tar so it didnt drip. The heat source was glycol solution so much lower than the band heaters we are talking about here though; A different compound would be necessary.

The procedure was to retension the band retainers after the units were brought up to temperature and expanded. Coil springs under the tension bolts to give some flexibilty for temperature swings. Actually that large application was easier to get good contact and transfer than our "little meth cookers" we are building.


----------



## johno

Hi Dott, I set the setpoint on my units to 450F this allows the bowl to have a little heat reservoir as when the sublimation of the OA takes place the latent heat required is more than 275 watts can produce in the 20 to 30 seconds that you take to do a treatment. You will see that if the temperature is around 450F as soon as the OA hits the bottom the temperature drops to around 320F and will slowly climb untill sublimation is complete which is around 400F. However some fumes will still be seen mostly from the condensed OA sticking to the cooler cap. The bowl will also need to be cleaned from time to time as a residue tends to build up around the bottom of the bowl, this is noticeable when the temperature when the OA does not fall to 320F but gets higher and higher the dirtier the bottom of the bowl gets. This residue actually seem to create an insulating barrier between the OA and the copper, however after about 20 treatments a little water and an old toothbrush cleans the bowl in a matter of minutes. Another point is that I test the device by half filling the bowl with water fit in the empty cap and allow the unit to heat up. You should find that as the water gets towards boiling piont excess water and steam will start coming out of the nozzle this will tell you that the cap does not block the outlet and then you can remove the cap and watch the water boil and then check that your temperature is around the 206F area and then you will know that the thermocouple is measuring the temperature to a reasonable accuracy.


----------



## ptwat

Nice TIG weld



Biermann said:


> Hello All Vapo's,
> 
> this is now our final unit after many trials and changes and fine tuning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me know your comments.
> 
> Cheers, Joerg K.


----------



## Biermann

Hello All,

We did some more work and have now two options for the discharge pipe. I call it 'high' or 'low'. The problem came when I had customers wanting to treat through the front, bottom entrance and the 'high' discharge does complicate this.

As test unit, we cut the top discharge out and filled the hole, drilled a hole close, but not at the bottom and bend a 90° on to the 3/16 tube to come up 1/2 way in the bowel, but at the opposite side from the entrance, close to the wall. This way the OA powder should not drop in to the tube when charged. I had hoped we could weld the 3/16 tube to the bowel, but that spot is a nightmare to reach. It would give a better heat transfer (my opinion, not shared with my welder! who gets slowly frustrated with me and my changes) . 

The bendable 3/16" tube has very little strength and the unit has to be held in place while treating, but I do this from the back too and it only takes 15-20 seconds to do one treatment. I did get some hard copper 3/16 tubing, but it is only .014 wall and it is not much more stable then the flexible tubing. I will see if I can find 3/16 x .125 wall, but what I found does not ship to Canada.

Here some pictures:
Laser cut material 







Different setups



























Their is no end to the changes as I believe, because one wants to improve the product all the time.

The on/off switch between the PID & heater allows for resting the unit (or oneself) without having to unplug the unit and it allows for setting the PID without heating the bowel. 

I feel we have a very rugged and reliable unit that will stand-up to hard work and should be very reliable.

Your comments are welcome as always, Joerg K.


----------



## logicallycompromised

good sir Joerg,
if you have problems with the 3/16" copper tube holding its shape or breaking, you can not only reduce the mass but also try to move it closer. you have a better idea than i do right now how much effort is required to bend in current setup. there is a chance, just reducing the length can satisfy your goal. i do not recall if it was your input or someone else's about having this tube bending in previous trials, but part of the reason i went minimlastic with my setup was to reduce the stress by way of being compact and minimum weight; naked pid controller which doubles as the handle for device. your device looks industrial but at the expense of asking more out of that joint and copper tubing. i brazed a steel 3/16" tube because it is what i had laying around, it is incredible rigid but not as great with thermal properties.

you are correct, having the tube in direct contact with the bottom would promote better heat transfer by way of conduction; the more contact the better with the heating metal(outside tube) otherwise we are relying mostly on just the single contact point of the 3/16" tube with larger copper pipe you use.

i have a healthy understanding how difficult it is to scrap research and development into a product. you have invested lots of time and manufactured parts which drive up the bottom line on the product. this possible confliction, may cause to you run with an idea longer then what may be practical. if your customers are willing to pay for these costs my opinion maters even less.

may the laws of probability be in your favor!


----------



## Biermann

Thanks logi...........,

I wanted to build a rugged unit, where nobody gets electrocuted or burns more areas then necessary and that lasts for years.

To clarify: I meant the sweep on the 3/16 should be tacked on the bowel wall, not the bottom since the heat band is on the wall, the bottom just extracts heat from the wall mass.

Myself, I never leave the unit hanging in the treating hole and it should not be an issue since it only takes ~20 seconds to vaporize the OA, but 30-40 seconds to reheat. Now, since my unit is enclosed everywhere, except the front, I set it upside-down on the treated hive while I prep the plug for the next treatment. Moving the spend plug to the next hive and the container with the OA over and filling the plug again takes thus 30-40 seconds and all is good. One person can treat a hive in a minute, 60 in an hour, all inclusive, try that with any other treatment for varroa.

Joerg K.


----------



## Biermann

Hello All,

I need some advise.

My new unit works like a speed bird. The bottom pipe exit proves to be very efficient and the 1.5" inside the bowel seems to keep more heat and speeds-up the heat recovery time. 

I treated my hives last night from the back through my standard mid center 1/4" hole with 3 gram of OA. Before that, I took the entrance reducer out, swept all garbage out on the bottom board and installed my white cardboard trays to catch the mites and other debris. I installed the reducers again with the smallest opening free and opened the winter covers from the back and vaporized.

Since it was getting dark, I left the cardboard in till early morning and found no mites on the cardboard. Please don't ask if I did a pre-mite count, since I am not wasting 100 some bees now and open the hive up to do so.

Question is, should I repeat the treatment in four days?

The bees are flying very nicely now with 15-20°C in the day. I am feeding, but the bees take very little syrup or pollen substitute.

All the best, Joerg K.


----------



## Jerryob4

How do I go about buying one from you?


----------



## crofter

I would look at the sticky boards on day three and judge from that; Many people have reported that drops are heavier after a few days compared to the first day. I have never really had a heavy enough load to have impressive drops. This is a good time of year to get the counts right down then you likely will not have to worry about dealing with honey supers.

Treatment cost is no issue and the band heater style is so quick that time is not an issue either...... the bees dont seem inconvenienced by the treatment so dont be shy!


----------



## Biermann

Jerryob4 said:


> How do I go about buying one from you?


Hello Jerryob4, if you are talking to me, I only ship within Canada, not south of the 49. So if you are in the States, look at johno's unit and send him a pm. Or, if in Canada, send one to me.

Maybe ayour location, it makes answering (any) question easier to determine the answer, cause it makes adifference if you in Flroida, California, Ontario, Alberta or somewhere else in the world.

Cheers, bee happy, Joerg K.


----------



## Biermann

double post


----------



## Biermann

Thanks Frank, you are absolutely right, it takes no time to treat, but 15-20 min. to uncover my hives and I am getting lazy in my age.

I guess my supers don't go on before later in May or early June and I could easier do a 4 day x 6 treatment regime before the supers go on with wash test just before I treat, then I know what is the matter.

Cheers, Joerg K.

BTW, we had very nice weather up to 20°C, but now it snows again and around 0.


----------



## Lburou

Here is my latest prototype:










Kudos to all for sharing your ideas, most of all to johno for giving us the courage to try... :applause:


----------



## crofter

Biermann said:


> Thanks Frank, you are absolutely right, it takes no time to treat, but 15-20 min. to uncover my hives and I am getting lazy in my age.
> 
> I guess my supers don't go on before later in May or early June and I could easier do a 4 day x 6 treatment regime before the supers go on with wash test just before I treat, then I know what is the matter.
> 
> Cheers, Joerg K.
> 
> BTW, we had very nice weather up to 20°C, but now it snows again and around 0.


I have holes drilled in the rear of my bottom boards that i can reach without unwrapping. Nex winter I would like to have access hole in the feed shim as well. Top down might have some advantage in colder conditions.

Your weather sounds very familiar! 12th of June is about time for me to super. Our weather slides in off the north shore of Lake superior.


----------



## Biermann

More finished units to go out.

I have changed now to only produce the bottom exit tube after one customer tried to wedge a top exit tube in to the bottom bee entrance and broke it off.





















BTW, I opened my hives yesterday to give them syrup & pollen patties and I have 100% survival and brood in every hive. 

Cheers, Joerg


----------



## robinh

Johno,you were interested in users of your EasyVap that had used both the white and red caps .I have used both and in my case i like the red better because the white ones seem to set deeper in the cup and block the tube more easily than the red.The EasyVap is so much better than the pan type.Much faster and so much easier.Thanks again for a great,affordable product.For anyone on the fence about buying one,get one,believe me you won't be disappointed.


----------



## johno

I have never had the problem of the cap blocking the outlet, The 100% silicone caps are very much softer than the highly filled red caps so can be seated much more gently if pushed in too far they tend to be more difficult to remove once treatment is done however they come out quite easily if they are twisted a little when removing. The red caps seem to deteriorate after a time which I think is due to the filler breaking down with the high temperature and this does no appear to be happening to the pure silicone caps.


----------



## robinh

Johno,i hear you,but even if i just lightly tap the cap when dumping the OA it will block the outlet,even with the red i will have to pull the caps back out a little because of them sitting to far down in the cup causing the blockage,but they are not as bad as the white,don't get me wrong,this is a small ,very small,inconvenience for the ease of this compared to pan types.I like it a lot.


----------



## JackandPam'sPlace

Hi there Joerg, I PM'd you yesterday about one of these units. I am interested and live in Ontario so all I need is a price before they are gone and shipping. Thanks in advance, Jack


----------



## Biermann

robinh said:


> Johno,i hear you,but even if i just lightly tap the cap when dumping the OA it will block the outlet,even with the red i will have to pull the caps back out a little because of them sitting to far down in the cup causing the blockage,but they are not as bad as the white,don't get me wrong,this is a small ,very small,inconvenience for the ease of this compared to pan types.I like it a lot.


Hello robinh, why don't you take a sharp knife and cut the plug off 1/4"? It will reduce the volume of your plug cavity, but you should still have enough room for the charge.

BTW, this problem has been solved with my bottom exit tube






since the entrance for the vapor can be lowered and since the tube is very close to the wall no charge falls directly in the tube when the charge is dropped.

Joerg K.


----------



## Alex Madsen

I just finished by band heater OAV. It is constructed all with electrical and pipe fittings. No welding/brazing required. The vaporization cup has a lot of thermal mass with 1/4" thick walls, and 1" thick base all aluminum (0.4 lbs total). 



thanks for all the great ideas posited on this thread, particularly from johno. 























Parts list:
44705K89	Low-Pressure Aluminum Pipe Fitting, Straight Connector, 1-1/4 NPT Female $4.40
7280K14	Threaded Hole Plug, 1-1/4 NPT $4.71
B073F3SG18 1/8" NPT MALE STRAIGHT TO 1/4" HOSE BARB NIPPLE Blue ALUMINUM FITTING $6.99
BNHL00142 and Heater, 2 In. Dia., 120V, 900 Deg F $40.46
PC5R-ABT1 Dual Display Manual/Auto-tuning PID Temperature Controller TA4-RNR $23.99
Silicone Hollow Tapered Plugs - Orange 1.469/1.750 Hollow Silicone Plug, Red-Oxide MOCAP MHSP1.469/1.750 (qty5) $5.27 /ea
deep electrical box
box cover plate
2" pipe hanger


----------



## aiannar974

Alex - would you have a parts list? have you fired it yet? it looks unused.

Anthony


----------



## Alex Madsen

I just edited my post with parts list. I have heated it but not used acid yet. I ordered the wrong size MoCaps, so I am waiting on Amazon to deliver before I try it with acid.


----------



## Alex Madsen

back of the envelope calculations on the heat capacity of my vaporizer cup.

0.22 (Btu/(lbm oF)) * (315F-372F) temperature rang of sublimaiton * .4lbm= 5btu=5275.28jules

(97.91kJ/mol) /(90.03g/mole)=1.087kJ/gOA sublimated

5.27528kJ/( 1.087kJ/gOA )=4.85gOA sublimated

4.8gOA sublimated ) 2 g/treatment=2.4 treatments without reheating required


----------



## hydrocynus

Can you include links to your post? Also, any corrosion issues with your pot? My guess is that it is better than copper and aluminum for heat capacity. So, it should take more time to heat up, but should keep its heat better? I really appreciate the effort of sharing your design here!


----------



## robinh

Biermann said:


> Hello robinh, why don't you take a sharp knife and cut the plug off 1/4"? It will reduce the volume of your plug cavity, but you should still have enough room for the charge.
> 
> BTW, this problem has been solved with my bottom exit tube
> View attachment 47349
> since the entrance for the vapor can be lowered and since the tube is very close to the wall no charge falls directly in the tube when the charge is dropped.
> 
> Joerg K.


That's why i didn't cut the plug off,i'm treating 4 meds.,so the plug depth is just right for the amount of OA needed ,but thanks for the input.


----------



## Docsmaple

I have a couple of questions.

1) How are you measuring the resistance of the band heater?

2) My hives have 3" walls, top bottom and sides because they are insulated for the NE Minnesota winters. Any way to use these DIY units with a long exit tube?

Thanks

Chad


----------



## Alex Madsen

My parts list with sourcing:
Parts list:
44705K89	(McMaster-Carr) (Low-Pressure Aluminum Pipe Fitting, Straight Connector, 1-1/4 NPT Female $4.40
7280K14 (McMaster-Carr)	Threaded Hole Plug, 1-1/4 NPT $4.71
B073F3SG18 (Amazon) 1/8" NPT MALE STRAIGHT TO 1/4" HOSE BARB NIPPLE Blue ALUMINUM FITTING $6.99
B007IB5D5Q(Amazon) and Heater, 2 In. Dia., 120V, 900 Deg F $40.46
PC5R-ABT1 (Amazon) Dual Display Manual/Auto-tuning PID Temperature Controller TA4-RNR $23.99
MHSP1.469/1.750 (Amazon) Silicone Hollow Tapered Plugs - Orange 1.469/1.750 Hollow Silicone Plug, Red-Oxide MOCAP MHSP1.469/1.750 (qty5) $5.27 /ea
B0797JWQ1R (Amazon) Century Drill and Tool 93201 1/8-27 NPT, 21/64" Tap & Drill Combo
B00OUS78X0 (Amazon) 2M K Type Mini-Connector Yellow Or Orange Thermocouple Temperature Probe Sensor Measure Range -50~700°C (Pack of 5) $2.53/ea
(Home Depot) deep electrical box
(Home Depot) box cover plate
(Home Depot) 2" pipe hange
(Home Depot) grounded electrical cord


----------



## hydrocynus

Thanks for the list. I am buying other parts from MSC DIRECT as I have a pro account with them. Will list them once received. Your PIP does not include a solid state relay. Do I need one?


----------



## johno

Alex what is the wattage of your band heater, one needs to be a little careful that the wattage is not too high as the contact ratings of the TA4-RNR is only 5 amps and quite frankly I would not exceed 50% of that.


----------



## Alex Madsen

Voltage: 120 Termination: 10" Lead Wire Terminals: None Material: Mica Insulated Steel Inside, SS Outside Inside Dia.: 2" Features: Rust Resistant Watt Density: 38 sq. in. Amps: 2.5 Watts: 300.

I have it fused at 3 amps.


----------



## Alex Madsen

hydrocynus said:


> Thanks for the list. I am buying other parts from MSC DIRECT as I have a pro account with them. Will list them once received. Your PIP does not include a solid state relay. Do I need one?


I dont see a need for solid state relay unless you dont like the clicking sound a of a mechnical relay.


----------



## hydrocynus

Thank you. I read on another board that RNR do not last as long as SSR. I went the SSR route.


----------



## Alex Madsen

I tested out my no braze design yesterday. It worked well, I was a little worried the plug would not seal the threads. Turned out not to be a problem. It was a bit slow. I think my set point temperature is too low at 365F. What are most people running on their vaporizers?


----------



## johno

I run my vaporizers at around 450 F this allows a certain amount of stored heat so that when the OA hits the bottom of the bowl there is sufficient heat reserve to boil off the water of crystallization and sublimate the OA in quick time as the 275 watts that I use could not provide enough of the heat required to provide the amount that the latent heat would require to change the state of the water to steam and and the OA to vapor in the time I would want. You will see the temperature overshoot the 450 F mark but not to worry cause as soon as the OA hits the bottom the temperature in my units drops to around 320 F and when it has climbed up to around 400 you are done and time to move on and on my units that is between 20 to 30 seconds depending on the OA load. My unit also reaches 450 F in around 100 to 120 seconds depending upon ambient temperature.


----------



## Alex Madsen

Thanks, I will try 450 F


----------



## Alex Madsen

johno, Thanks,450 degrees worked great, also helped keep the nozzle clear. My unit takes about 20seconds to vaporize 2 grams. The unit never drops below 420 degrees due to its large thermal mass. It does take about 5 minutes to get up to operating temperature.


----------



## hydrocynus

Alex Madsen said:


> I dont see a need for solid state relay unless you dont like the clicking sound a of a mechnical relay.


Alex, do you have any issues with the aluminum smoking? According to MSC, it smokes when you hit 400F. 
Also, I have learned that 1/8" nipple is not 1/8" ID. it is actually 1/4" ID and is the smallest ID they have at MSC. Ideally a 1/16" nipple would be the ticket to approach 3/16" ID. I will go with 1/4" ID as I have no other alternatives.


----------



## Alex Madsen

hydrocynus said:


> Alex, do you have any issues with the aluminum smoking? According to MSC, it smokes when you hit 400F.
> Also, I have learned that 1/8" nipple is not 1/8" ID. it is actually 1/4" ID and is the smallest ID they have at MSC. Ideally a 1/16" nipple would be the ticket to approach 3/16" ID. I will go with 1/4" ID as I have no other alternatives.


1) Pipe sizes/threads in practices often like dimensional lumber. Actual dimension is different from the named size.
one from Amazon that is in stock ASIN B074W4B62Q
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074W4B62Q/ref=dp_cerb_1

2) Please send me the link. Never heard of AL smoking, but all the contaminants sure do. What is your question? Aluminum 6061 retains 50% of its tensal strength at 480 F. there is more to worry about when compared to the Acid Vapor you are creating.


----------



## hydrocynus

Alex Madsen said:


> 1) Pipe sizes/threads in practices often like dimensional lumber. Actual dimension is different from the named size.
> one from Amazon that is in stock ASIN B074W4B62Q
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074W4B62Q/ref=dp_cerb_1
> 
> 2) Please send me the link. Never heard of AL smoking, but all the contaminants sure do. What is your question? Aluminum 6061 retains 50% of its tensal strength at 480 F. there is more to worry about when compared to the Acid Vapor you are creating.


Hello Alex, there is no link, just a comment that their specialist did when we were chatting. Do you have a picture of your finished contraption? That would be helpful before I start drilling holes. Further, what is the ID of the apex of the nipple? How hot does it get when the whole rig is warm enough? Thank you!


----------



## mwrhusker

What are you using for heat wrap, and how are you applying it? Thanks all


----------



## johno

I use 5/16" grapho glass, start at the top and clamp the stuff under the band heater clamping screw and then wind it all the way down to the bottom and tie it off on the bowl mounting screw. I would prefer straight fiber glass rope but could not find any.


----------



## mwrhusker

johno said:


> I use 5/16" grapho glass, start at the top and clamp the stuff under the band heater clamping screw and then wind it all the way down to the bottom and tie it off on the bowl mounting screw. I would prefer straight fiber glass rope but could not find any.


I was thinking of using the fiberglass exhaust wrap like this..https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074P1G5M6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Any insight would be welcome.


----------



## johno

The problem with flat fiber glass tape is that it will not move to the contours of the bowl especially where you go over the band heater clamp so you end up with something untidy.


----------



## SteveHive

Advice on this new thing?








https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=oxalika+pro


----------



## Barhopper

I believe I heard 12 volts in the video. A google search showed €480. Pricey and back to having a battery. I’ll be interested to see what other people have to say.


----------



## SteveHive

me too, but i'm very curious, before spending that much I wanted some feedback...


----------



## dddillon

When using the EasyVap, do you normally block off the front entrance too?


----------



## ptwat

SteveHive said:


> Advice on this new thing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=oxalika+pro


This looks great if you want to spend over $400 for something you can build as effective for about $70 (the device this thread is dedicated to). If you have hundreds of hives it may make sense.


----------



## johno

If your entrances are wide open or the gap is big enough for a large amount of vapor to escape just smoke the entrance and close it off with a rolled up dish cloth. A dry dish cloth not a wet one unless you want to replace your dish cloths very quicly as the vapor will disolve into the wet cloth and pretty soon it will start to come apart.


----------



## Lburou

johno said:


> If your entrances are wide open or the gap is big enough for a large amount of vapor to escape just smoke the entrance and close it off with a rolled up dish cloth. A dry dish cloth not a wet one unless you want to replace your dish cloths very quicly as the vapor will disolve into the wet cloth and pretty soon it will start to come apart.


And...Don't wipe perspiration from your face with that cloth! It will burn.


----------



## yotebuster1200

Lburou said:


> johno said:
> 
> 
> 
> If your entrances are wide open or the gap is big enough for a large amount of vapor to escape just smoke the entrance and close it off with a rolled up dish cloth. A dry dish cloth not a wet one unless you want to replace your dish cloths very quicly as the vapor will disolve into the wet cloth and pretty soon it will start to come apart.
> 
> 
> 
> And...Don't wipe perspiration from your face with that cloth! It will burn.
Click to expand...

Probably sound advice. Haha.


----------



## hydrocynus

Here is my version of it using the no brazing option. It came out cheap as I had most of the hardware. I also used a Berm (not berme) Rex C100 which is more limited as a PID but it is plenty for our application. I had to set the temperature sensor off by -20C to get the temperature inside the pot to be 230C (what the provap uses). I used the auto-tune to set the P, I and D and use a solid state relay for longevity. It vaporizes very fast and because of the mass of aluminum, the temperature drop is very minor. Will list my materials and costs here if interested. I had to machine out some of the thread of the pipe coupling for a good fit of the cap with a mini lathe. Besides the pot, the whole contraption is warm to the touch but does not exceed 35C. The radiator remains at about 30C. Thank you all for your help. It surely has been a fun project which took much time to make it happen.


----------



## little_john

Alex Madsen said:


> I dont see a need for solid state relay unless you dont like the clicking sound a of a mechnical relay.


If a mechanical relay opens it's contacts under load, then usually a small spark is created. This does two things: firstly it creates electrical interference; secondly, over time this sparking destroys the plating on the contact's surface which eventually causes them to develop 'high resistance' and fail. 

SSR's have zero-voltage switching circuitry which ensures that loads are connected and disconnected whenever the AC waveform is either at - or very nearly at - the zero-voltage cross-over point, thus eliminating any surge current into the load.
They have a longer life expectancy when compared to relays - but are more expensive - and unlike relays, can only be used with AC supplies.
LJ


----------



## hydrocynus

Here are my costs and list of materials. I have not added the screws, tap, electrical cord and connectors as I have that or got it out of scrap equipment. Total is about $75, so it was not cheap and getting one from this board is worth the cost but without the fun of R&D and making one. You can see that PIDs on Ebay are very cheap. The seller actually gave me $5 back as the heat sink was not included. I do not pay shipping with MSCdirect. 

Ebay:	
TEMPCO Band Heater,2 In. Dia.,120V,900 Deg F, NHL00142 $27.91 
REX-C100 Digital PID Temperature Controller Max 40A SSR K Thermocouple Heatsink $14.74 
25A/40A 250V SSR-25DA SSR-40DA Solid State Relay Alloy Heat Sink $5.29 
1/8" NPT MALE STRAIGHT TO 1/4" HOSE PORT NIPPLE RED ALUMINUM FINISH ADAPTER $4.36 
Lowes	
1/4-3-2 POPLAR PROJECT BOARD $1.81 
1/4-IN-20 BRAD HOLE N TEE NT N3 Item #: 137342 $1.13 
TRUSS COMBO MS 8-32X1/2 5-CT Item #: 15050 $1.28 
Hillman 3-ft x 1-in Aluminum Metal Flat Bar $7.48 
Mscdirect	
MSC #*78142130******Latrobe Foundry -*1-1/4" Aluminum Pipe Coupling - 150 psi, F End Connection, Grade 6061-T6 $3.69 
MSC #*78142692**Latrobe Foundry - 1-1/4" Aluminum Pipe Square Head Plug - 150 psi, M End Connection, Grade 356-F $6.35 

Total: $74.04


----------



## msl

Were did you place the thermocouple?


----------



## dddillon

I'm on my third use of the EasyVap, with 15 hives in the yard. Love it.

Ran into a slight problem on last round. When I flip over the unit, the OA is not dropping into the heater, even with finger tapping, or banging with the handle of the screwdriver I use to de-propolise the holes.

It eventually drops, but is taking a lot of banging. I'm not stuffing the OA into the bowl, just dropping a couple of measuring spoonfulls into the holder.

I do notice that there is a bunch of OA buildup inside the holder from user. It looks like a fine power coating inside and on the top of the holder. I'm guessing that is just re-crystalize OA, and that it may be the cause of the hang up.

Has anyone else run into this?

The OA is dry, as I cap the bottle tightly after each use, and it is still very powerdery.


----------



## johno

When you take the used cap to refill just take your loading spoon and wind it around on the inside of the cap to remove any of the condensed OA from the inside edges of the cap then refill the cap as normal and it will fall into the bowl every time. Also do clean your bowl with water and a brush after use or the residue can build up and slow down the sublimation. You can use a tooth brush to do this, but dont use yours I use my wife's!


----------



## johno

MSL if you use a thermocouple that is used with a multi meter, the end is just some small wires twisted and fused together, this can be inserted between the bottom of the bowl and a stainless steel washer and clamped tightly with the mounting bolt.


----------



## hydrocynus

msl said:


> Were did you place the thermocouple?


My PID came with a thermocouple that was threaded. It screws tightly in the bottom of the aluminum plug that screws into the aluminum fitting.


----------



## msl

Thanks
that's what I thought I saw in the 1st picture, but I was 2nd guessing that it may come in on the side of the plug so it could be tapped and mounted to the AL stock 
most of the parts came in today!


----------



## hydrocynus

msl said:


> Thanks
> that's what I thought I saw in the 1st picture, but I was 2nd guessing that it may come in on the side of the plug so it could be tapped and mounted to the AL stock
> most of the parts came in today!


I can help you with more detailed pictures if you want. Did you buy the plugs too? I had that plug for another project (glad it fitted perfectly after I sanded the threads). It is not expensive, but they generally sell them in bulk. So, adding the plug would add to the cost. Look for mocaps.com. My plug was made by another company (reason why it is clear silicone and not red). I do not recall the name of the company but there are a few companies out there that make hollowed silicone caps.


----------



## msl

would love some more pictures
I have one coming that is made to fit 1.25" FNPT for paint masking might be able to avoid the sanding


----------



## hydrocynus

Anyone here is working on a silicone heat mat treatment (set at 107F) for 2.5 hours for hive beetle and mite treatment? Should be easy to do with a PID. Trying to find a a cheap source for the heating silicone mat/blanket etc. Can someone help me here?


----------



## jarenrogers

Can't find the Mypin A4-RNR (part number cited by Johno on page 29) at Amazon or on a Google search. Has the part name changed to TA4 instead of A4? And does the thermocouple that comes with the unit at the amazon link work for the OAV application, or would I need to find a different one?

https://www.amazon.com/TA4-SNR-Thermocouple-SNR-Temperature-Controller/dp/B0195V53X8


----------



## jigsaw

jarenrogers said:


> Can't find the Mypin A4-RNR (part number cited by Johno on page 29) at Amazon or on a Google search. Has the part name changed to TA4 instead of A4? And does the thermocouple that comes with the unit at the amazon link work for the OAV application, or would I need to find a different one?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/TA4-SNR-Thermocouple-SNR-Temperature-Controller/dp/B0195V53X8


I see this hasn't been answered. The most popular controller that is being used for this project is this one - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007JWIDC...olid=12TR8WZZUPVGD&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

But it's out of stock. Can someone explain the difference between this one and the one jarenrogers linked?


----------



## johno

The controller used is the Mypin TA4 RNR which is getting very difficult to find at reasonable prices The RNR part means there are 2 relay output one switching the band heater and the other is for an alarm. The other ones SSR or SNR are for outputs to solid state relays which is fine but the relat cost and now you would require more space in the controller enclosure. You could try the Inkbird with the relay output. You will also require a type K thermocouple


----------



## jigsaw

Thanks for the clarification johno. FYI, the RNR is now in stock at Amazon with limited supplies. Currently $25.99 US.


----------



## jigsaw

If anyone is struggling with the fabrication of the heating chamber, I made a couple extra. 1 1/2 copper pipe with 3/16 tube . pm me.


----------



## username00101

At this point, having performed band heater vaporization, I am still curious as to why this treatment doesn't kill more bees or damage the colony in general.

Occasionally I'll see maybe 10 dead bees after a 2g OA treatment. 

I have noticed that the stream of OA directly in front (within 1-2 inches) of the output tube is very hot, and occasionally molten OA spews from the tube. If anything is located 1 inch or so in front of that stream of OAV, it gets coated with molten OA.

After noticing that any solid object in front of the stream of OAV gets coated with molten OA, I have made sure to take extra precautions that no frame, or any obstruction is located in front of the output pipe. 

I was surprised to see how much of the OA will get "wasted" as a pile of solidified molten OA. Occurs if the obstruction is within around 1-2 inch of the output pipe. If the stream of OAV is obstructed (approx 1-2 inch) and not given enough space to cool down in temperature. Appears to be approximately 1-2 inches of "free" space required for the temperature to cool enough so that OA doesn't condense as a molten glob.

I can test "molten globbing" by vaporizing 2g of OAV and aiming the tube 1-2'' away from an unfinished wooden surface (not painted). For some reason, if the surface is finished or painted, it doesn't "glob" as much.


----------



## johno

I think you will find that the condensing water vapor from the OA mixes with the OA crystals when it exits the small tube and this gives the impression of molten OA. The temperature of the vapor leaving the tube cools rapidly and I have had the vapor directed into the back of my left arm within 2 to 3 inches away without any discomfort from the heat. I sometimes wonder if some OA is drier than some others.


----------



## allniter

MR JOHNO how do U keep your [[ OA ]] DRY when U open the container --I have put in it into double plastic bags and then in a QUART JAR with a lid it still seams to draw moister


----------



## johno

I hear you allniter, I think it is worst in those hot and humid summer months and seems drier once the temperature cools. Most of the testing I did was during winter and I did not seem to have that exess moisture problem then. I have noticed the build up of OA residue near the places where I insert the vaporizer which I never saw anything of when I was doing winter tests, but then it was drier air and I was working with mostly just 2 grams of OA and timing the sublimation. When treating I have mostly used about 4 grams per dose in humid conditions so that is where the difference might lie.


----------



## allniter

I know the outside temp makes a different in time and OA moister and the way your VAP works


----------



## drobbins

interesting thought about moisture
I have some of those desiccant packs laying around, I think I'll store my OA container in a ziplock bag with those


----------



## Beeverton

I've been reading many of the discussions about heating oxalic acid, and think it's time to comment. There's far too much 'kitchen-sink' chemistry going on, and much misinformation. 

1) It's not vaporization (liquid to gas), it's sublimation (solid to gas). It's neither smoke nor vapor.

2) Before playing around with it, do some homework......get a full description of its composition, toxicity and thermal decomposition from a chemical reference guide (NOT off of YouTube).

3) Know what personal protective equipment is required to control exposure to this substance. It can do serious damage to your eyes, lungs and mucous membranes. 

4) Heating dihydrous oxalic acid above 375 degrees Fahrenheit causes it to decompose into formic acid and carbon dioxide. Heating it to between 209 and 360 degrees Fahrenheit causes sublimation (ambient pressure dependent). Heating it to between 140 and 190 degrees Fahrenheit evaporates off any water in the crystals. 

All the aforementioned said, why would you want to buy or use any device that heats above 375 degrees Fahrenheit? You are exposing the bees to an unknown concentration and mixture of substances.


----------



## johno

Beeverton before you go on too much about heating oxalic acid perhaps you should read up about a phenomenon called latent heat and then maybe you will find that appliances that heat up above the sublimation temperature do not stay at the set temperature once the oxalic comes into contact with the hot vessel. Do you think all these things you have been bringing to our attention have not been taken into consideration with hours of testing to prove the concepts of these devices. Let me also enlighten you to the fact that this sublimated gas does not go much further than the end of the nozzle before condensing into fine crystal form which can be seen on a cool winters morning with the sun low on the horizon by the twinkling of the crystals in the sunlight. Last I checked formic or carbon dioxide do not show in the sunlight. Hey I got off the banana boat a long time ago and have been exposing my bees to this kind of treatment for the last 6 to 8 years with below 10% over winter losses since grandad fell off the bus, so at the end of the day maybe that is why beekeepers use devices like this.


----------



## Beeverton

Johno,

I spent 20 years maintaining process control systems that regulated temperature, pressure, flow, voltage, current, pH, etc. I am quite familiar with both their design and operation. All the temperatures and cautionary statements from my previous post were from chemical engineers with whom I worked.

My main concern is not the viability of these devices or treatments, but the misuse and misinformation about them that is prevalent on social media, and the resulting safety issue. There are scores of videos showing users with absolutely no protection (handling hot components and dodging fumes). 

Because of this, our state's master beekeeping program, unfortunately, decided last year to not encourage new beekeepers to use oxalic acid sublimation as a treatment method because of the risk. 

I think the beekeeping community should and can be more responsible here.


----------



## crofter

Beeverton said:


> Johno,
> 
> I spent 20 years maintaining process control systems that regulated temperature, pressure, flow, voltage, current, pH, etc. I am quite familiar with both their design and operation. All the temperatures and cautionary statements from my previous post were from chemical engineers with whom I worked.
> 
> My main concern is not the viability of these devices or treatments, but the misuse and misinformation about them that is prevalent on social media, and the resulting safety issue. There are scores of videos showing users with absolutely no protection (handling hot components and dodging fumes).
> 
> Because of this, our state's master beekeeping program, unfortunately, decided last year to not encourage new beekeepers to use oxalic acid sublimation as a treatment method because of the risk.
> 
> I think the beekeeping community should and can be more responsible here.


It probably is correct to assume that not *all* beekeepers have the judgement to safely work close to the line with minimal protective gear. I can identify with JohnO's approach because of his background can pinpoint and tiptoe around the key danger scenarios. 

My personal experiences as an industrial steamfitter and welder has involved numerous safety indoctrinations for working in hazardous conditions involving everything from radioactive to explosive, corrosive and biohazard conditions, but in some situations where only myself is involved and I am intimately familiar with, I can get a bit cavalier with safety. Calculated personal risk I guess you could call it. From a liability angle, if I were wearing a supervisor's hat, I would not dream of directing others to take the same risks.

I am curious to see what the consensus of opinion is re. OAV


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## johno

Beeverton, I guess my experience with control systems started on the 4th of January 1960. I have also worked in process control in the petrochemical industry maintaining pneumatic and electronic instruments and I have also operated hazardous plants such as the Phillips hydrogen fluoride alkylation plants and others producing and using hydrogen sulphide so I am well aware of working in a dangerous environment however with OAV and yes it is a particle vapor when used in the manner used by beekeepers, the OAV is about as dangerous as water so common sense will tell you not to stand around and inhale the stuff and if you cant figure that out you should not really be beekeeping. Quite frankly in a closed off area the only mask I have used is a 3M paper mask which I started using way back when I tried to find the smell of formic acid in the OAV plume to see if there was any truth in the breaking down of OA into formic and other products and through the paper mask I could smell neither the OA or any formic but could see the plume twinkling in the morning sunlight. I do not place too much weight on some of these programs that are putting out all sorts of eroneous information anyhow as most of them will tell you that OA is only good for broodless colonies. The most important thing about using OAV is to know the product and its hazards and work with it in your safety comfort zone, dont work in wet conditions and mind your eyes also learn to control your breathing and just walk away.


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## username00101

johno said:


> Beeverton, I guess my experience with control systems started on the 4th of January 1960. I have also worked in process control in the petrochemical industry maintaining pneumatic and electronic instruments and I have also operated hazardous plants such as the Phillips hydrogen fluoride alkylation plants and others producing and using hydrogen sulphide so I am well aware of working in a dangerous environment however with OAV and yes it is a particle vapor when used in the manner used by beekeepers, the OAV is about as dangerous as water so common sense will tell you not to stand around and inhale the stuff and if you cant figure that out you should not really be beekeeping. Quite frankly in a closed off area the only mask I have used is a 3M paper mask which I started using way back when I tried to find the smell of formic acid in the OAV plume to see if there was any truth in the breaking down of OA into formic and other products and through the paper mask I could smell neither the OA or any formic but could see the plume twinkling in the morning sunlight. I do not place too much weight on some of these programs that are putting out all sorts of eroneous information anyhow as most of them will tell you that OA is only good for broodless colonies. The most important thing about using OAV is to know the product and its hazards and work with it in your safety comfort zone, dont work in wet conditions and mind your eyes also learn to control your breathing and just walk away.


I too can attest that the 3M paper particulate mask is sufficient.


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## Beeverton

I'm involved with an ongoing research project at the OSU Bee Lab quantifying the effect of oxalic acid sublimation treatments on eggs and uncapped brood. This year's data is currently being analyzed from field testing, and it will be interesting to see what, if any, affect exists.


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## johno

Beeverton, that research will be interesting as most beekeepers have percieved no real effect on colonies with multiple treatments of OAV. However there is always a possibiity of unseen effects it should also be pointed out that so far all of the other known treatments available do have negative effects on colonies and whats more at quite a price, whereas at least if we do some damge with OAV that we are not aware of at least it comes at a reasonable price.


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## AHudd

Beeverton said:


> I'm involved with an ongoing research project at the OSU Bee Lab quantifying the effect of oxalic acid sublimation treatments on eggs and uncapped brood. This year's data is currently being analyzed from field testing, and it will be interesting to see what, if any, affect exists.


I hope you post your findings on BeeSource.

Thanks, 
Alex


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## username00101

I'm suspicious as to why this band heating vaporization doesn't do more damage to the bees.


My observations are clear: hives appear very healthy, and the ones that had high mite counts were certainly NOT healthy.

So I can only conclude, at this point, that OAV does nothing harmful.


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## Robert Holcombe

A lot of beekeepers and research scientist agree with you. I plan on a winter treatment, around Christmas, using OAV twice, 14 days apart to eliminate 99.7% of all remaining Varroa. Winter Solstice and I am pretty brood free but if not the second treatment cleans up the hive. Varroa counts are low until Fall, ~Oct 5. I seem to suffer from Varroa Bombs around me and forced int a Varroa War status.


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## JWPalmer

Most of us that are OA only give the bees a treatment around the end of November, Thanksgiving weekend if you will, and then again at Christmas. Seems to work pretty well for going into Spring with a zero mite count. Bees start brooding again around winter solstice so the idea is to get the last few remaining mites before any cells get capped.


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## snl

Since I treat with OAV exclusively, I’ve found that if I don’t do a series of treatments prior to the raising of winter bees, I’ll probably lose the hive.


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## Robert Holcombe

My 14 day elapsed time is from a Univ. of Sussex test report, timing is based on my ocean affected weather, coupled this with drone removal and Varroa counting in the Spring - pretty darn clean. One retired Maine Inspector claimed brooding never stops, I'm in *southern* RI.


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## thefenton

Alex Madsen said:


> My parts list with sourcing:
> Parts list:
> 44705K89	(McMaster-Carr) (Low-Pressure Aluminum Pipe Fitting, Straight Connector, 1-1/4 NPT Female $4.40
> 7280K14 (McMaster-Carr)	Threaded Hole Plug, 1-1/4 NPT $4.71
> B073F3SG18 (Amazon) 1/8" NPT MALE STRAIGHT TO 1/4" HOSE BARB NIPPLE Blue ALUMINUM FITTING $6.99
> B007IB5D5Q(Amazon) and Heater, 2 In. Dia., 120V, 900 Deg F $40.46
> PC5R-ABT1 (Amazon) Dual Display Manual/Auto-tuning PID Temperature Controller TA4-RNR $23.99
> MHSP1.469/1.750 (Amazon) Silicone Hollow Tapered Plugs - Orange 1.469/1.750 Hollow Silicone Plug, Red-Oxide MOCAP MHSP1.469/1.750 (qty5) $5.27 /ea
> B0797JWQ1R (Amazon) Century Drill and Tool 93201 1/8-27 NPT, 21/64" Tap & Drill Combo
> B00OUS78X0 (Amazon) 2M K Type Mini-Connector Yellow Or Orange Thermocouple Temperature Probe Sensor Measure Range -50~700°C (Pack of 5) $2.53/ea
> (Home Depot) deep electrical box
> (Home Depot) box cover plate
> (Home Depot) 2" pipe hange
> (Home Depot) grounded electrical cord


Thank you Alex for the info! 
I was not able to get a hold of the PID, so I picked up this one... 
Inkbird ITC-106RH Controller
https://www.amazon.com/Inkbird-Temp...rd+ITC-106RH+Controller&qid=1571504263&sr=8-3

I also wanted to be able to easily remove the chamber to be able to clean it.


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## Rogue26

Beeverton said:


> Johno,
> 
> I spent 20 years maintaining process control systems that regulated temperature, pressure, flow, voltage, current, pH, etc. I am quite familiar with both their design and operation. All the temperatures and cautionary statements from my previous post were from chemical engineers with whom I worked.
> 
> My main concern is not the viability of these devices or treatments, but the misuse and misinformation about them that is prevalent on social media, and the resulting safety issue. There are scores of videos showing users with absolutely no protection (handling hot components and dodging fumes).
> 
> Because of this, our state's master beekeeping program, unfortunately, decided last year to not encourage new beekeepers to use oxalic acid sublimation as a treatment method because of the risk.
> 
> I think the beekeeping community should and can be more responsible here.




That is strange because I was just up at the OSU bee lab on Friday getting a demonstration on the process of vaporizing as well as the dribble method as part of the master beekeeping program. The study that was just completed on open brood after the vaporizing process was mentioned and although they aren't ready to release results yet they indicated that there was very limited brood harmed in the process. They used a standard wand for the demo but indicated that with reading/following the directions and use of the proper PPE they felt that the process was safe with minimal exposure to vapor since the hive was closed up.


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## Beeverton

The decision to not teach oxalic acid sublimation as a treatment method for new beekeepers was made last year (because of safety liability concerns). The program administrators and advisors may have reconsidered it since then, as long as the safety issues were properly addressed.


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## Robert Holcombe

I have been using OAV since it was approved. I have researched it heavily especially EU and British papers, etc. Unfortunately fear drives a lot of opinions versus facts. I have managed to OAV a hive, on average, at the rate of 12 -13 minutes per hive as well as weigh my hives at the same time. I am up on the learning curve using the Varrox unit, winter treatments, supers-off with all hives on my little farm and a John Deere for carrying my battery. I have adopted using a rachet strap on my hives with a wet rag at the entrance. Suddenly I realized I no longer have "leaks", etc. (I have yet to cough my guts out.) I have never seen in 4 years any damage to a hive. In fact we have treated a hive with multiple OAV treatments as it was loaded by a Varroa bomb and a brood break while it raised an emergency cells queen, got mated and started laying (hive was saved and over-wintered ). Check out Univ of Sussex England for field treatment studies, Italy and Switzerland in reference to "contamination" and Germany for a user safety report. I gave up on finding an explanation via USA - Canada info paths as to why you cannot OAV with supers on but formic is OK. No money in selling OA, I guess, thus no support. I am still collecting and learning information on using OAV efficiently. Winter OAV treatment is a huge improvement in Varroa management as it eliminates the need for treatments until supers are off in the early Fall. I intend to teach my grandson some beekeeping and use of OAV next season.


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## johno

My my Robert, if you think it is safe and easy with a varrox vaporizer wait until you use a band heater vaporizer through a 1/4" hole and treat each hive in under a minute. when I treat my hives I rarely wear a veil and use only a 3M paper mask when treating hives in an enclosed room. OAV is really bad stuff like water, if you breathe in water you could die.


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## username00101

Robert Holcombe said:


> I have been using OAV since it was approved. I have researched it heavily especially EU and British papers, etc. Unfortunately fear drives a lot of opinions versus facts. I have managed to OAV a hive, on average, at the rate of 12 -13 minutes per hive as well as weigh my hives at the same time. I am up on the learning curve using the Varrox unit, winter treatments, supers-off with all hives on my little farm and a John Deere for carrying my battery. I have adopted using a rachet strap on my hives with a wet rag at the entrance. Suddenly I realized I no longer have "leaks", etc. (I have yet to cough my guts out.) I have never seen in 4 years any damage to a hive. In fact we have treated a hive with multiple OAV treatments as it was loaded by a Varroa bomb and a brood break while it raised an emergency cells queen, got mated and started laying (hive was saved and over-wintered ). Check out Univ of Sussex England for field treatment studies, Italy and Switzerland in reference to "contamination" and Germany for a user safety report. I gave up on finding an explanation via USA - Canada info paths as to why you cannot OAV with supers on but formic is OK. No money in selling OA, I guess, thus no support. I am still collecting and learning information on using OAV efficiently. Winter OAV treatment is a huge improvement in Varroa management as it eliminates the need for treatments until supers are off in the early Fall. I intend to teach my grandson some beekeeping and use of OAV next season.


13 minutes per hive?

I agree with the "contamination" aspect - I wrote a previous thread: https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?356975-OA-vaporization-is-probably-safe-with-honey-supers-here-s-my-calculations

I too have not observed any noticeable detrimental effect from repeated OAV. Despite my expectations to the contrary.


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## Robert Holcombe

Yes! My hives are in pairs, pairs are scattered but my JOhn Deere and wagon carry everything. When Fall OAV'ing I find the 2.5 to 3 minute sublimation time is adequate and 3 minutes for the OAV condensate. I cool my wand everytime and clean it. 7 minutes average for moving around and prepping. When I pull the wet rag off, I have yet to see any vapor nor smell OA - maybe a dead bee off and on. I am looking at OAV'ing under the screened bottom for next year. Tidbit observation: After my winter OAV treatments I "find" no need to treat my hives all Spring and Summer; inspections via drone and worker cells. I start treatments after I remove my supers and brood reduction begins. Unfortunately it seems I kill far more Varroa than what was bred internally.


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## John Davis

OAV from under the screen is not a good idea. The metal screen acts as a heat sink and the OA recrystalizes on it instead of going up into the hive. It is one of the reasons that some folks have failure using OA. Unless you look under the hive and see the build-up on the screen directly above the wand you don't realise what happened.


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## username00101

John Davis said:


> OAV from under the screen is not a good idea. The metal screen acts as a heat sink and the OA recrystalizes on it instead of going up into the hive. It is one of the reasons that some folks have failure using OA. Unless you look under the hive and see the build-up on the screen directly above the wand you don't realise what happened.


I agree.


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## Robert Holcombe

I am aware of the issue. I am also wondering how dispersing OAV all over a cold hive actually works. Or do bees move it around quickly while doing their duties from high concentration areas to lower concentration areas (M.Ellis)? Why not do it top down? So many questions!


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## John Davis

It works from top down, key is to have some space for the vapors to disapate as they cool and condense back to the small crystals that we see as the "cloud". I have done some nucs from the top with an 1 1/2 inch spacer for the wand. With a wooden top you get some OA build up above the wand pan but not as much as on the screened bottom, most disperses. More space would be better. The band heater type vaporizers discharge into more open space if the injection openings are placed correctly.


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## crofter

The term vapor as applied to the sublimation of oxalic acid really is probably not an accurate description of what we are blowing into a hive. Sublimation is the transformation of liquified oxalic acid directly to minute solid particles of airborn Oxalic acid monohydrate. No more a vapor than flour dust would be. Any true vapor phase of Oxalic acid is very fleeting and would only be within an inch or so of the heat source. 

The vision of Johno blowing the discharge onto his bare arm rather changed my thought processes. I think I have seen Little John give a much more scientific explanation.


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## little_john

crofter said:


> The term vapor as applied to the sublimation of oxalic acid really is probably not an accurate description of what we are blowing into a hive.


Depends. I recently looked up the dictionary definition of 'vapour' ('vapor' in the US) - to see how the word is being employed - and I discovered that it has been assigned to two different meanings.

When used in a scientific context, vapour refers exclusively to a transitional liquid state - but in everyday usage it refers to both liquid AND solid particles - such that smoke (which of course consists of ultra-fine solid particles) is an example of a vapour when used in this second, everyday sense. e.g. "a substance diffused or suspended in the air, especially one normally liquid or solid."

So - sublimated OA can either be a vapour or not, depending on whether you have a scientist's hat on your head when you're using the term ...

"Don't shoot the messenger" ... 
LJ


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## JWPalmer

LJ, look up the definition of aerosol. That is what OAV truly is. From wiki:



> An aerosol is defined as a suspension system of _*solid*_ or liquid particles in a gas. An aerosol includes both the particles and the suspending gas, which is usually air. ... Donnan presumably first used the term aerosol during World War I to describe an aero-solution, clouds of microscopic particles in air.


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## little_john

JWPalmer said:


> LJ, look up the definition of aerosol. *That is what OAV truly is*. From wiki:


"Truly is" ? With the source being Wikipedia ?

The word 'aerosol' was coined in 1919, meaning a *sol*ution (in the chemical sense) suspended in *Air* - hence Aero-Sol. From 1940 onwards the term was assigned additional everyday meanings, including: "a substance enclosed under pressure and released as a fine spray by means of a propellant gas" or even the container itself: "a metal container in which liquids are kept under pressure and forced out in a spray".

Scientists however define an aerosol as being a suspension of particles in the atmosphere - having both human-made and natural sources.

And so - despite what Wikipedia may say - we're faced with exactly the same problem as with 'Vapour': scientific usage, and everyday usage.
'best,
LJ


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## JWPalmer

Not arguing the point. I learned about aerosols in my high school chemistry class, let's see, back in 1977. Long before wiki. The classic example for a solid is smoke. Suppose the same can be said for fog, which is certainly a vapor. For something to really be an aerosol, the particles must be small enough to remain in suspension by bouncing off off other molecules. Mists and droplets do not meet this criteria. So, while hair spray and bug spray may be sold as an aerosol, they are not since most of the particles will not remain airborne on their own. 15/15. Your serve.


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## johno

Maybe we should just call it oxalic acid dust? The fine particles certainly do not remain in suspension and all settle down due to gravity just as dust will settle if there is no agitation. Is dust a vapor? I am sure it cannot be clasified as an aerosol. As far as OAV is concerned we all know what it is but dont know what to call it.


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## alfred westlake

I have a concern about the temperatures that are involved in OA vaporization. I can't seem to get around the idea that one needs to be able to accurately control the temperature of the process otherwise it does not work correctly.

OA Sublimates (Becomes gas directly from solid without transitioning to a liquid) at 315 F, but if it reaches 355 F it will begin to break down into carbon dioxide and formic acid, If it reaches 373 F it degrades into carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and water. So there is a small temperature window for proper vaporization. (40 F and 58 F respectively). Most devices have no way to control the temperature. So how do we know if the vaporizer is actually delivering OA or if it is degrading some or all of the treatment? Once the temp gets to 373 F the OA will convert to CO2, CO, and H2O. Obviously we don't want to gas them with carbon monoxide.

If the provap or any band heater is set to 230C(446F) this is well above the degradation temp of OA. Why is the set temp set so high and not within the Sublimation range for OA of 315f (157c) to 355f(179c) ??


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## snl

When OA breaks down to Formic and Co2 there is not enough Formic to help and not enough co2 to hurt (if any is released at all because it is suspected that OA will only break down in laboratory conditions.) Those two are invisible gases. What you see coming out of the vaporizer is OA crystals (think baby powder).


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## Arnie

Alfred,
Water boils at 212F.
If you put a pan of water on the stove for a cup of tea do you set the burner at 212 degrees or do you turn the stove on 'high'?

When the OA drops into the pre-heated band vaporizor the temp immediately drops dramatically. As it reheats the OA is vaporized.
It's because of this temperature drop that you need the high pre-heat temp.


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## alfred westlake

Yes this would hold for a tray device. But the band devices contain the OA more confined.

No it is not really crystals any more that when you boil water that the steam is crystals. OA vapor is sublimated OA, OA in a gaseous state, No doubt it cools back to crystals quickly, but it is initially at least in a gaseous state. If it is then allowed to heat even more it degrades. If it degrades to the point that formic or even further to where CO is produced then it is no longer OA as it has DEGRADED into it's constituent compounds.


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## JWPalmer

Arnie, you beat me to it. That is exactly the same example I was going to use , except for the temp of the pan dropping. My ProVap will drop from 230°C to as low as as 204° C when sublimating. Not a huge difference. They key is that the OAV itself is like the water and won't get over the sublimation temperature until it has all sublimated. At that point, if contained, I believe you could increase the temeratures and cause it to break down. Just like steam can be heated well above 212°F if kept under pressure. 

Anyone that produces moonshine is well aware that the temperature of a solution will remain at the boiling point of a constituent of that solution until that constituent has boiled off completely no matter how much heat is applied.


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## Arnie

Alfred,
The OA is not confined in the EasyVap. 
The vaporized OA exits via the small outlet tube.
But whatever. This discussion pops up from time to time and it seems the folks who like arguing the formic warnings are never convinced. 
Fine by me, I'll continue on my way.


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## alfred westlake

If the OA is heated to 373 F the OA will convert to CO2, CO, and H2O. There is no OA left it has converted to CO2, CO and H2O.

It may be that it escapes the chamber before it reaches 373 f....
It could be that it then still reaches above 355 F in which case it degrades to Formic and CO2. Again there is no OA left as it has been converted away....

Maybe it is that some of each has happened. Where some of the OA escapes the chamber before it reaches 355 f. Maybe even most of it does? But any that does not will be converted/degraded a process that does not leave any OA intact.

So why are the temps not controlled within the Sublimation range?

I ask because of my interest in DIY.

It would not be a big deal except that the temp range window is only 40 degrees.


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## Arnie

JWP, have you made honey moonshine?
I have thought about trying to. Is there a recommended thread for that? 
I don't want to hijack this thread


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## crofter

Arnie and JWP; you are not wrong! 

The higher set point of the evaporator is necessary to achieve an effective production rate to propel the plume into the hive in the band heater types where the charge is dumped in. The energy transfer necessary to effect the change of state will result in a temperature gradient such that the surface will quickly come to match the atmospheric pressure boiling of the charge whether it be water oxalic acid or your mash! A temperature gradient is the driver for energy transfer. That takes care of the need for the higher temp setting the makes many people nervous about the possibility of achieving disassociation breakdown temperatures.

If the chamber is pressurized the boiling point would be increased but that would perhaps raise the breakdown points as well. In any case that pressure is not achievable in either the wand type or the band heater type.

What makes things interesting and has led to past discussions, is the very real abilty to raise the temperature of the escaping gas beyond the evaporating temperature. Here is what is necessary to achieve this condition which is so often stated as being an impossibility. If the escaping gas is directed to pass through an intensely heated space beyond where it is produced, it will of necessity have its temperature greatly increased as well as its volume. All this without needing to pressurize beyond atmospheric. It does take high temperatures and large surface areas. (Like in the tubes of a steam superheater boiler) This is one of the things Snl refers to as laboratory conditions. This whole paragraph is about conditions not applicable to the animals we are handling but perhaps a few will take something from it.

I have worked on quite a few installations of steam superheater boilers to improve efficiency. Nasty laboratories indeed. 

Jwp; you can get your shine with less fuel and a lower temperature if you pull a vacuum on your condenser.


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## ptwat

alfred westlake said:


> If the provap or any band heater is set to 230C(446F) this is well above the degradation temp of OA. Why is the set temp set so high and not within the Sublimation range for OA of 315f (157c) to 355f(179c) ??


I set and use mine on 400F and it works fine with no issues. You don't have to use higher temps if you do not want to.


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## crofter

I suspect it is a matter of getting a bit quicker action. It would be interesting to see if an open air demonstration would show a bit more forceful discharge plume with the set temperature at the higher range. I haven't timed mine for a long while but from memory it was around 40 seconds. I have no thermostat on mine but I do have a dimmer switch control on the upper of the two bands


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## JWPalmer

Arnie said:


> JWP, have you made honey moonshine?
> I have thought about trying to. Is there a recommended thread for that?
> I don't want to hijack this thread


No, but I have 5 gallons of mead that I started last week. Might be interesting to try distilling some of it. I have a thread in the home brewing sub-forum you can follow if you wish. 80 proof mead, hmmm.


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## johno

If you wish to turn 5 grams of water into steam you will require 1 calorie of heat to move each gram through 1 degree C until you hit 100 C thereafter you would require 400 calories of heat to turn each gram to steam, this 400 or 40 I cant remember now is called latent heat and is the heat required to change the state of water from liquid to vapor or gas. now if you set your vaporizer at 100 C you can boil the 5 grams of water away but only as the amount that the source of energy allows. Now if your set point is 200 C it will boil off the water in a much quicker time as you have a greater amount of energy already in the bowl however when you add the water the bowl temperature will drop to 100 C so you dont burn the Water LOL and boil it off much more quickly. The same goes with OA if the bowl is at 450F and the bottom is clean and free of the layer of oxide that normally forms when the OA hits the bottom of the bowl the temperature can fall down to 290 F and climbs untill all the OA has boiled off its water and the rest has sublimatedand what is more is that the OA is already crystalizing as it leaves the vaporizer outlet. Even the pan types where some treat fron just below the screened bottom board will find a coating of crystals on the mesh of the screen. So that high set point is just to give you a leg up on treating time. You could probably set the temperature even higher and I am sure it will still work OK however you will wear out your silicone cups and the wear and tear of the vaporizer will also be much greater and by the way you will boil off 5 grams of water in less than half the time it takes to sublimate 5 grams of OA which sot of points to the fact that OA takes more latent heat to sublimate than water to change its state


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## alfred westlake

"If the escaping gas is directed to pass through an intensely heated space beyond where it is produced, it will of necessity have its temperature greatly increased as well as its volume."

This is what happens in a standard insect fogger where the vapor is made to go through heated coils.

But I hear that the consensus is that with a band heater the vapor escapes the heat before it can reach 375F(190c) even though the band heater is set to 446F(230c) and sublimation is at 315F(158c).


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## johno

Alfred this is not a consensus, it is a visible fact. You can see the temperature on the temperature controller drop to as low as 290 F from 450 F as soon as the OA hits the bottom of a clean hot bowl just as you will see the temperature drop to 212 F if you dump some water into the hot bowl, wear gloves and eye protection if you want to try that yourself.


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## msl

snl said:


> if any is released at all because it is suspected that OA will only break down in laboratory conditions..



The EMEA says that with the slow pan heater types 54% makes it in to the hive, 1% breaks down in to FA the rest Co2/water
https://www.ema.europa.eu/documents/...roducts_en.pdf


"This small electrical device can be inserted into the hive and allowsthe evaporation of oxalic acid in the closed hive55. During heating, approximately half ofthe oxalic acid disintegrates into harmless carbon dioxide, while the remainder forms anoxalic acid precipitate which settles on the bee,"https://www.researchgate.net/publica...f_the_Honeybee

as you note your self 


snl said:


> When heating, about half (46%) of OA decomposes into harmless carbon dioxide and water. Other half (54%) vaporizes and forms fine drops and dusts of OA that precipitates everywhere in hive. Because of this even distribution of fine particles, high and consistent efficacy against Varroa mites is possible [[/COLOR]http://www.mellifera.de/Engli2.pdf - Accessed 7/13/04].




This realy shouldn't be any sort of suprize... Pure oxalic acid dehydrate is 71.42 wt % oxalic acid and 28.58 wt % water (Riemenschneider and Tanifuji 2011) and without it and more or less harmless "breakdown" we would get very little push out of band heater type systems

while its "supected" that the high band heater types will have more break down do to their higher operation temps and speeds, there has been not much done on the subject... Randy oliver put pan and band head to head in a small trial and didn't see a mite reduction difference, and if there was most fokes would just add a bit more OAD 
If we look at Toufailia Et Al 2016 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2015.1106777 







We see vapor is killing 81% at a low dose and not a huge gain as the does cranks up


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## Beeverton

A preliminary report from a study conducted at the OSU Bee Lab, presented at our state's beekeeping conference this past weekend, stated that that OA sublimation treatments showed little negative impact on eggs and open larvae. Good news that helps further validate its use against Varroa.


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## johno

Msl, I have no idea how the research on the OA dosage was carried out, or whether this would be effected in any way by actual field conditions and hive setups. I have always felt that the efficacy of the crystals was only as good as the internal coverage of the OA dust and if it did not get to every nook and cranny some mites could survive in those areas so by increasing the dose hopefully greater coverage is gained and as there appears to be no detrimental effect on the bees what is lost in the effort.


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## crofter

alfred westlake said:


> "If the escaping gas is directed to pass through an intensely heated space beyond where it is produced, it will of necessity have its temperature greatly increased as well as its volume."
> 
> This is what happens in a standard insect fogger where the vapor is made to go through heated coils.
> 
> But I hear that with a band heater the vapor escapes the heat before it can reach 375F(190c) even though the band heater is set to 446F(230c) and sublimation is at 315F(158c).


It is not exactly a consensus yet but close examination of the results strongly supports it. What happens in the insect fogger is quite a different scenario and I think your take on that is correct. Often the oxalic acid is carried into the devices by being dissolved in alcohol which complicates the physics and chemistry issue.

Here is a simple definition that is the core of understanding the mechanics of what the vaporizers are doing.


_"Latent Heat Transfer. At the point where one of the substances is ready to change state or phases (solid to liquid, liquid to gas, etc), heat is transferred from one substance in one state without a corresponding temperature shift in the substance in the other state"._

It is not an intuitive concept to get your head around. Oxalic acid also has an uncommon property of sublimating which is 2 changes of state without the intermediate one being evident.


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## johno

One can also view the higher temperature as having the same effect as a heavy flywheel has, it basically stores kinetic energy, now to throw another wrench in the works water of crystalization in some chemicals forms the basis of a flame retardant as when the substance is heated to a certain temperature the water of crystalization is released thereby cooling down the materiel. Now to make it even more complicated all off the OA does not all heat up at the same time as there is a layering effect especially when the water starts to boil and this is the molten stuff folks talk about, water and oxalic acid mixed. I have also noticed that with the set point temp at 450 F the lower the temperature drops the quicker the treatment so the more the bowl is cleaned the quicker the treatment. I have now purchased a black and yellow stainless steel brush with bristles on the side and on the head and when stuck into the bowl and just twirled around the brush on the head takes off enough of the oxide film to really make a difference. Under normal operation the temperature drops to around 320 F when loaded and as the number of treatments increase that temperature slowly rises which means that the layer of oxide is providing some insulation to the OA and the sublimation time slowly increases. Once I started using the brush incidently from Ace Hardware after each treatment the temperature would drop into the 290 F range which would mean that the OA was absorbing more heat and so sublimed quicker. The temperatures were monitored with a very light thermocouple attached directly to the thin copper bottom of the bowl so the temperature readings change rapidly which might not be the case with a heavy bottom and heavy metal capped thermocouple.


----------



## alfred westlake

THis is all great info.
THanks everyone for chiming in.
I would love to get one of your devices Johno, but I understand you are backed way up on production.
I may have to try my hand at making one myself.
Any tips or guidance...???
I am reading through the entire thread now.
Clearly should have done this BEFORE.



THanks


----------



## msl

johno said:


> Msl, I have no idea how the research on the OA dosage was carried out, or whether this would be effected in any way by actual field conditions and hive setups.


I posted the link :scratch:


> Trials were carried out in winter, January 2013, using 110 honey bee colonies located in 10 apiaries at or within 20 km of the University of Sussex in southern England. The colonies were all in hives consisting of a single “commercial” brood chamber (11 frames each 43.8 x 25.4 cm, vol. 56.4 l), wooden bottom board with mesh floor, inner cover, and telescopic outer cover.
> 
> Hive inspections approximately four weeks before the trials were used to exclude any queenless colonies. Subsequent hive inspections approximately three weeks before the experimental trials showed that c. 90% of the colonies did not have any brood. The other 10% had small amounts of sealed or open brood, which was removed 1–2 days later using a honey fork. As a result, all varroa mites in all colonies were phoretic on the adult bees.


Toufailia Et Al 2016



> Any tips or guidance...???


I found this list handy https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?332394-Band-heater-vaporizer&p=1746979#post1746979


----------



## Robert Holcombe

I would be very careful with the increased dosage logic. There are issues and limits. One of Dr. Ellis's reports showed redistribution or "spreading" of OA by bees in a short period of time. One thing that amazes me is the ability of the vapor to find any "leak" or vent to the outside or broken propolis joints. This especially shows up in new boxes when I chip a dovetail joint. I am curious about your average rate of OAV'ing per hive in minutes including all motions and preparing. I average 12 minutes per hive total including moving and preparation time using a Varrox wand. My hive pairs are spaced out with 100 Ft. + between sets. I have thought of buying a second Vorrox to cut the time required to OAV per hive.


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## Biermann

Hello Robert,

I did use a 12VDC wand too, one fall and then I had enough of this process. The Band heater vaporizer works so much better and quicker. The best thing is to treat from the side or back, no bees that bother you or vis versa.

Also, not putting all the valuable and scientific pro's and con's down, but the vaporizer work, the bees are as healthy as with apivar and it treats for pennies when I want it done. No waiting time or strip removal etc. 

Time depends a little on the ambient temperature, affecting the heat loss from the band heater. I build this for two years:






it did see some updates over the time and works pretty quick. No way going back to a wand. Once going, 30 seconds to a minute per hive, preparing the loads is the bigger holdup then treating.


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## Rogue26

I just finished building my temperature controlled unit and am using the band heater that JohnO recommends. My first time turning it on and testing the heat up process I got a lot of colored smoke coming from the band heater. I was just wondering if others have experienced this? I purchased two heaters and they both did it. After the initial heating to a little over 450 the smoke stopped and I am not getting it when reheating. Just thinking it is burning off something from the manufacturing process but thought I would ask about others experience. 

Thanks


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## trj

Should be just the volatiles outgassing


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## Biermann

Hello Rogue26, the manufacturers say to not heat them up to full load at startup. I use mine with 135°C first, check recovery with water several times and then go to the 204°C, 400°F. It is, as trj says, the winding's gasing volatile's of from the manufacturing process. It is normal.


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## jmobee

I like the new 120vac band heater method. The speed that it can be applied; and the minimizing of "upsetting" of the bees during application are the pluses. The cost and the need for 120vac are negatives. The 120vac on the band heater can become a shock hazard if a short occurs and a good ground is not maintained and/or using a ground fault detector. Depending on the PID controller output, if a relay is used most are limited to 3A max and are mechanical (can wear on pit). Probably the reason some units are limited to 250watts (2+ amps at 120vac). This requires the heat up time to be about 6 mins, but once heated the unit can keep up during usage (~15 to 20 sec recovery after each shot into a hive). I have made my own and can keep up with 3 of them doing 12 hives in groups of 4. I.E. start a unit in hive1, then 1 in hive5, and then 1 in hive9. By this time hive1 is done and the vaporizer is move to hive2, and the nest to hive6; etc. I use kitchen timers with a 10min count down for each hive. As the nit is stuck in the hive, I start a timer. By the time I finish with the insertion in to 12, the alarm is going off for hive1; etc. After 12 are done, take a breather before moving on to the next 12. During application the nozzle may be come clogged and a small "pocket" screw drive can be used to ream them out. I have not drilled the holes in the back of the bottom board 3/4 rim. I have made up entrance sticks (12ea as a minimum) to close up the hive with a ~3/8" hole. The sticks are slightly beveled alone the long edge to wedge into the entrance and the ends at ~45deg angle to seal at either end. My bottom landing board extended to the outer edge of the hive body (I run 8 frame size hive ~15" outside ~12.5" x 3/4" entrance).


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## OBG

Good morning, please check your messages and reply? Thank you.


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## msl

Built the hydrocynus version from the parts list in post #869

I felt I was getting too much splatter from the bottom mounted tube, especially when treating 2-3 brood chamber hives, It felt like much wasted OA and the didn't feal like I was over flowing the hive and pushing "vapor" (dust) out all the cranks 
As luck would have it 3/16" tubing press fits in to the back of the "1/8" NPT MALE STRAIGHT TO 1/4" HOSE PORT NIPPLE" so I bent up a "snorkel" and put it in to keep the intake above the boil level. 
end result much more "vapor" output and no white splatter


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## jmobee

The unit I made has the "snout" coming out ~1/2" from the top edge at a 45deg, running down the side of the cup and bend at a 90deg to go in to the hive. The main cup is surround by a 2nd copper sleeve around the cup to allow the tube to be under the bolts that hold the heater on the vaporizer. This keeps the snout heated down the outside of the cup and gives good vapor cloud into the hive. The extra copper sleeve give more heat sink for the preheat to ~235C and then give it up to the vaporization. The tube into the hive shouldn't be more than 3/4" to prevent "freeze off" of the tip. I still keep a pocket screw driver to ram out the tip as necessary. I run 3 units at a time, setting up groups of 4 hives for a total of 12 hives. Have a entrance stick and timer for each hive (12 ea). I start 1st, then 5th, and 9th with a 10min timer on top of each. By the time the 9th is started the 1st vaporizer is move to the 2nd, then the 5th to the 6th; etc. By the time the 12th is started the 1st timer is going off and so on. Then I move them setup to the next 12; etc. I use to run 2 sets of 6 pan vaps using 6 battery chargers and timers to shut down the chargers at 3min and alarm at 10min. The pan chargers can really "upset" the bees and many can come out when pulling the pans. "Mean" hives can cover your hands! The copper cups kill less bees than pans in the hive and when removing the snout from the 1/4" hole in the entrance stick the bees don't follow it out. Bees on the outside returning to the hive stay away from the hot cup and there is not a cloth rag with returning bees to kept in place when removing the pans. I'm doing my bees 4 weeks in Jul after spring flow removed, once at the ~Oct after fall flow removed and one at the end of Nov depending on the weather. If the weather is good (above 50degF) I intend to do them again in ~Feb-Mar. The copper cup is "SO EASY".
I run screened bottom boards with shelf slid in bottom to hold sticky papers. When vaping hive, I have an ~4" corrugated plastic extension fasten to bottom of the sticks into the hives to help allow the vapor up into the hive. I have setup 3 medium 8fr supper with frame and drawn wax, a bottom, and a top (I run this as my hive bodies in lieu of 2 large bodies) and ran vap cycle. The frames have been dusted and some vapor out the top cracks. If 115vac is available, via of extension, ~1KVA generator, or maybe and inverter battery setup, I think the copper cup is the way to go at this time if have ~4 or more hives.


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## Biermann

Hello jmobee,

I use 1 1/4" K-type copper pipe with a welded plug on the bottom. My latest version is a bottom 3/16 treating tube about 3/8" from the bottom of the bowl and it carries through in the bowl up the opposite wall and ends about 3/8" under the silicon plug. I open the silicon plugs up to 5/8" diameter since I noticed OA hanging up in the plug if it is to small. 

I use 300 watt heat bands from PPE in Ohio.















We are now on our 110.04 model with shortened bowl, from 3" height to 2 1/4".

The PID controller does allow for quick treating of the hives and a on/off switch can turn the head band off if the user wants to hold treatment, needs to make setting adjustments or wants to have a break without interrupting the power supply to the unit.


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## piggybackcash

hydrocynus said:


> msl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> that's what I thought I saw in the 1st picture, but I was 2nd guessing that it may come in on the side of the plug so it could be tapped and mounted to the AL stock
> most of the parts came in today!
> 
> 
> 
> I can help you with more detailed pictures if you want. Did you buy the plugs too? I had that plug for another project (glad it fitted perfectly after I sanded the threads). It is not expensive, but they generally sell them in bulk. So, adding the plug would add to the cost. Look for mocaps.com. My plug was made by another company (reason why it is clear silicone and not red). I do not recall the name of the company but there are a few companies out there that make hollowed silicone caps.
Click to expand...

Can you show pictures of the bottom of the cookout where the sensor goes and the coupler attaches I ordered the same aluminum 1/14 parts as you in addition to the 1” ones since they were so cheap.


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## piggybackcash

msl said:


> Built the hydrocynus version from the parts list in post #869
> 
> I felt I was getting too much splatter from the bottom mounted tube, especially when treating 2-3 brood chamber hives, It felt like much wasted OA and the didn't feal like I was over flowing the hive and pushing "vapor" (dust) out all the cranks
> As luck would have it 3/16" tubing press fits in to the back of the "1/8" NPT MALE STRAIGHT TO 1/4" HOSE PORT NIPPLE" so I bent up a "snorkel" and put it in to keep the intake above the boil level.
> end result much more "vapor" output and no white splatter


Can you
Post a picture/visual of the ****pit? Top , bottom and inside? Showing temp probe and mounting as well as the tubing you mentioned?


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## KenNashua

I've just recently gotten a 3d printer, so wanted to share with whoever would find it helpful the grip I printed for my band heater. There's some pictures on Thingiverse as well of my assembled band heater.

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4287465


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## msl

nice!


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## ptwat

KenNashua said:


> I've just recently gotten a 3d printer, so wanted to share with whoever would find it helpful the grip I printed for my band heater. There's some pictures on Thingiverse as well of my assembled band heater.
> 
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4287465


Nice grip. I had started to do something like this and never finished it- now I don't have to. You may know this, but if you slice this in Cura you can check "Fuzzy Skin" under Experimental settings and get a nice non-slip surface on the grip.

Btw, I have a 3D printable box/housing that the Mypin PID controller slides into. I have several different tops and bottoms to the box as my design has evolved with strain relief holes, fuse holder holes and on/off switch holes. I can post it on thingiverse if you are interested.


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## Zadriel

Alex Madsen said:


> My parts list with sourcing:
> Parts list:
> 44705K89	(McMaster-Carr) (Low-Pressure Aluminum Pipe Fitting, Straight Connector, 1-1/4 NPT Female $4.40
> 7280K14 (McMaster-Carr)	Threaded Hole Plug, 1-1/4 NPT $4.71
> B073F3SG18 (Amazon) 1/8" NPT MALE STRAIGHT TO 1/4" HOSE BARB NIPPLE Blue ALUMINUM FITTING $6.99
> B007IB5D5Q(Amazon) and Heater, 2 In. Dia., 120V, 900 Deg F $40.46
> PC5R-ABT1 (Amazon) Dual Display Manual/Auto-tuning PID Temperature Controller TA4-RNR $23.99
> MHSP1.469/1.750 (Amazon) Silicone Hollow Tapered Plugs - Orange 1.469/1.750 Hollow Silicone Plug, Red-Oxide MOCAP MHSP1.469/1.750 (qty5) $5.27 /ea
> B0797JWQ1R (Amazon) Century Drill and Tool 93201 1/8-27 NPT, 21/64" Tap & Drill Combo
> B00OUS78X0 (Amazon) 2M K Type Mini-Connector Yellow Or Orange Thermocouple Temperature Probe Sensor Measure Range -50~700°C (Pack of 5) $2.53/ea
> (Home Depot) deep electrical box
> (Home Depot) box cover plate
> (Home Depot) 2" pipe hanger
> (Home Depot) grounded electrical cord


Alex this is an awesome parts list. A couple of quick questions. I notice you don't include any kind of relay... solid state NOR mechanical. Did you put one of the two on and just not include it? Also, I notice you mention a fuse in another location of 3amp I think, but I also don't see that in your list. Are there any other parts missing from your list? And has anybody put together a step by step with any of this or do we have to read all 43 pages? Thanks so much!


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## johno

Hi Keith, I have replied to your message twice now but do not see it in my sent items so I am not sure if you have received my replies.


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## Zadriel

johno said:


> Hi Keith, I have replied to your message twice now but do not see it in my sent items so I am not sure if you have received my replies.


Thanks so much! But It is not showing up in my in box here. You may also email me at zadriel AT aol


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## johno

Zadriel, the TA4-RNR has an internal relay for switching light loads, I use a 11/4" copper coupling with copper welded to the bottom and the 3/16" refrigeration copper tubing welded onto the coupling using Sta-silv and oxy acetylene. The band heater is a 275 watt heater from Plastic Process Equipment part # MX15006 at a cost of around $15. The thermocouple I get from Amazon and the rest is up to you to put together.


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## Zadriel

Thank you so VERY MUCH for that! Quick question. Does this device need to be ordered WITH the TA4RNR? 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MCWO35...colid=360GGVNYCHTB&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it




johno said:


> Zadriel, the TA4-RNR has an internal relay for switching light loads, I use a 11/4" copper coupling with copper welded to the bottom and the 3/16" refrigeration copper tubing welded onto the coupling using Sta-silv and oxy acetylene. The band heater is a 275 watt heater from Plastic Process Equipment part # MX15006 at a cost of around $15. The thermocouple I get from Amazon and the rest is up to you to put together.


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## johno

Zadriel there is no need for the solid state relay, the Mypin TA4-RNR has an internal relay for switching the band heater on and off. The contacts are rated at 5 amps resistive load and the 275 watt band heater draws only 2.3 amps. I have been using mine for about 3 years now and do not have any problems.


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## Zadriel

I love the look of yours. Where'd you get that cool GOLD handle and holder?




hydrocynus said:


> Here are my costs and list of materials. I have not added the screws, tap, electrical cord and connectors as I have that or got it out of scrap equipment. Total is about $75, so it was not cheap and getting one from this board is worth the cost but without the fun of R&D and making one. You can see that PIDs on Ebay are very cheap. The seller actually gave me $5 back as the heat sink was not included. I do not pay shipping with MSCdirect.
> 
> Ebay:
> TEMPCO Band Heater,2 In. Dia.,120V,900 Deg F, NHL00142 $27.91
> REX-C100 Digital PID Temperature Controller Max 40A SSR K Thermocouple Heatsink $14.74
> 25A/40A 250V SSR-25DA SSR-40DA Solid State Relay Alloy Heat Sink $5.29
> 1/8" NPT MALE STRAIGHT TO 1/4" HOSE PORT NIPPLE RED ALUMINUM FINISH ADAPTER $4.36
> Lowes
> 1/4-3-2 POPLAR PROJECT BOARD $1.81
> 1/4-IN-20 BRAD HOLE N TEE NT N3 Item #: 137342 $1.13
> TRUSS COMBO MS 8-32X1/2 5-CT Item #: 15050 $1.28
> Hillman 3-ft x 1-in Aluminum Metal Flat Bar $7.48
> Mscdirect
> MSC #*78142130******Latrobe Foundry -*1-1/4" Aluminum Pipe Coupling - 150 psi, F End Connection, Grade 6061-T6 $3.69
> MSC #*78142692**Latrobe Foundry - 1-1/4" Aluminum Pipe Square Head Plug - 150 psi, M End Connection, Grade 356-F $6.35
> 
> Total: $74.04


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## Zadriel

Thanks so much Johno! I would have just ordered one from you but I need to treat soon and so I'm venturing into building mine. Couldn't have done it without all your help and others on here.

I did see you had some nice blue looking caps and some white ones that looked like the oxpros lids... I've checked mocaps and just can't find them. Are you sourcing them from another place? I'd love to try the blue ones or even better the white ones. Thanks again!
Keith




johno said:


> Zadriel there is no need for the solid state relay, the Mypin TA4-RNR has an internal relay for switching the band heater on and off. The contacts are rated at 5 amps resistive load and the 275 watt band heater draws only 2.3 amps. I have been using mine for about 3 years now and do not have any problems.


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## johno

I gave up on the white silicone caps as the supplier was so unreliable, Blue caps are available from CA plugs you have to find hollow silicone plugs and choose the size that will fit your bowl unfortunately you will have to buy them by the hundred. I gave up on the Mocap plugs as the red oxide would wear off the plug and get into the OA. If you email me at [email protected] I can let you have smaller quantities of the blue silicone plugs that will fit into the 11/4" copper coupling. They measure top 1.625" x 1.313"


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## Biermann

Silicon plugs, 

This is a comment from one of my customers:


> good day. I have one of your oxalic acid units and have reviewed it on beesource. I love it and show it to all of my Nuc customers. I just wanted to follow up on how the caps are surviving from the abuse of treating my hundred plus hives. It appears that the red ones are actually lasting longer than the white!


Here his pictures














I do wonder if we are using too high of a temperature and, I am not sure if everyone still operates with 400° F (204°C). I feel the time to vaporize 3 gram is not significantly longer at 375°F (191°C) and it may let the plugs survive a longer term. I am using K-type copper tubing since fall of 2019 for the 1.25" bowl and welded bottom. This seems to take slightly longer to head-up, but retains the heat better.

Machined plugs from Vespel® did last better, but the O-ring seal did not. It (Vespel®) has also a high price tag.

The CA and MOPAR plugs have satisfied me to date, but doing some hundred hives with a vaporizer is a different story then my few hobby hives.

Both companies did deliver fast and efficient, only advantage with CA Plugs is the larger cavity and I don't need to drill them open, so they are now my preferred plug by default.

JoergK.


----------



## clyderoad

johno said:


> I gave up on the white silicone caps as the supplier was so unreliable, Blue caps are available from CA plugs you have to find hollow silicone plugs and choose the size that will fit your bowl unfortunately you will have to buy them by the hundred. I gave up on the Mocap plugs as the red oxide would wear off the plug and get into the OA. If you email me at [email protected] I can let you have smaller quantities of the blue silicone plugs that will fit into the 11/4" copper coupling. They measure top 1.625" x 1.313"


johno,
I think you should be nominated for and then selected as Beekeeper of the Year (really Beekeeper of the Decade ) for your selfless work in creating your band heater OA vaporizer and making the plans available, for FREE, to those who want to build it, and also offering the finished product to those who would rather purchase it ready to use at such a reasonable price. My hat is off to you.
Bravo johno, bravo!

clyderoad


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## allniter

CLYDEROAD ---I will second that motion ---everyone raise your hand


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## johno

How long do your plugs last, that is the question. The answer is just how badly do you treat your plugs. The longer that plug stays on the hot vaporizer the shorter its lifespan. So my 12 treatments a year on around 50 hives those 6 plugs I have used will go into my second years treatments as they do not stay on the vaporizer for more than 30 seconds each treatment because I keep the bottom of my hot bowl very clean and when I invert the vaporizer and the OA falls to the bottom I see the temperature drop down to around 290 degrees and when it rises to 400 the cap and vaporizer comr off as there is no more OA on the bottom of the bowl. There still might be a little vapor around but it is from the condensed OA on the cap. To keep the bowl clean I use a small stainless steel brush and rotate it in the bowl as I move to the next hive and this breaks the oxidization layer on the bottom of the bowl and allows the heat to quickly transfer to the OA lying there. The dirty bowl is also the reason that I see so mane bent outlets from beeks beating on the cap when the temperature does not drop while the OA is probably lying on the oxidization layer and the heat is taking time to get to the OA. I must admit that my red caps also have lasted a long time as I no longer use them, when I used to clean out the inside of the hollow into the OA container the red oxide from those caps would fall into the OA and contaminate it and cause a heavier oxidization layer on the bottom of the bowl


----------



## Ryan Williamson

Ok I will admit to being the owner of the rough looking plugs Joerg shared. I just put them through a good bit of exercise 4 treatments of my 120 hives. I use about 8 plugs while treating and as I leave the unit in the entrance to get the next hive ready I will admit that sometimes it gets left in too long. Joerg all four of the white CA plugs have now failed but the ref Mopar ones are still working. I picked up some CAplugs samples and the dark blue one is degrading fast dropping blue into the OA. I'm liking the Mocap caps drilled out with a 7/8" bit as they are easier to fill. Imagine the thinner walls won't last as long plugs are cheap and think it's worth increased speed. Johno I'm going to do a better job of removing caps on time and also cleaning the inside of the bowl so it goes faster


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## johno

Ryan I believe the plugs I use are larger than the ones Joerg uses as the inside diameter of my bowl is 1 3/8" and I do not think that the little brushes I use will fit your bowl






But cleaning tje bottom of the bowl between treatments makes a considerable difference to the sublimation time. I have found that the silicone plugs that I use do wear but do not seem to contaminate the OA like the Mocap plugs did, also as they are larger I do not have to open up the hollows which can take around 3.5 to 4 grams of OA so the wall is also quite thick.


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## Ryan Williamson

Johno...I just started using a brush like that but the fit is tight so I need to find a wire pipe cleaner type to reach the bottom. I do wish the bowl was a bit bigger to fit the plugs you use. I have a sample one sitting on my counter waiting for some free time to sand down to fit. yes cleaning with the pipe cleaner definitely speed up sublimation time. Also I have found boiling water in the bowl seems to clean out the bowl and tube ok but not quite as well. Do you think the larger cap is any different material than their other sizes? I definitely see more of the dark blue contamination from the smaller CAcaps than from the red mopar caps. Naturally I can't see the white as well as they degrade.


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## Biermann

Ryan, 480 vaporization's with eight plugs is not bad, $40 for plugs is not bad either if one really things about it. Many variations of designs are out in the VAP-world and somewhere one has to make decisions on production. Parts can not be changed just that easily if one needs to build on a consistent base.

I am thankful for any help to improve what I build.

JoergK.


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## aiannar974

John - somewhere in this massive post you mention experimenting with doing OAV every week through the year. Did you ever try this?


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## johno

No unfortunately making vaporizers has kept me so busy that I have had little time for anything else


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## 123456789

Has anyone else checked to inside the pot temperature? The PID says it's 450 but this temperature gun reads between 270 and 340 depending on just where in the pot you aim it??? This is an MK 350 terminator unit and the temperature probe is tapped and screwed through the pot and into the aluminum heat sink.


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## johno

I check my temperature by boiling water in the pot and make sure I end up close to 212F, so not being sure about 450F i purchased an infra red thermometer just like yours and found it to be quite useless as you could not get anywhere near the correct temperature when it was pointed into the pot when the water there was boiling away. I cannot even get near body temperature when I stick it into my ear.


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## 123456789

johno said:


> I check my temperature by boiling water in the pot and make sure I end up close to 212F, so not being sure about 450F i purchased an infra red thermometer just like yours and found it to be quite useless as you could not get anywhere near the correct temperature when it was pointed into the pot when the water there was boiling away. I cannot even get near body temperature when I stick it into my ear.


Pretty much what I'm finding. The vaporizer works just fine so I'll blame the infra red thermometer. I'll try boiling at some point but I'm not going to unwrap it now. 

My main purpose was to make a backup with no PID like one of your first builds in this thread. I thought if you could get a reliable temperature reading with the infra red thermometer you could get by with a real cheap backup.

I will still play with that thought and If I can get a reading in the same range as a pot with a PID I would still have some guidelines as when I'm up to temp.


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## Biermann

Hello,

Air is not a good conductor and the bowl wall and bottom are the heated mass the OA crystals are sublimated on, not the air in the bowl, so the inside air temperature is really of no relevance, but the bowl mass temperature. This is the reason why the sensor, feeler or whatever one may call it, needs to be as close to this mass as possible. One reason why I still make the bowls I use from K-type copper since it is thicker, needs more time to heat-up, but also retains the heat longer when the charge is dropped.

The spot where the sensor is mounted is also important. it should be physically separated from the heat element or the PID will swing wildly. I mount mine under the bowl since the unit is (normally) heated upside-down. Heat still rises, so moves from the bowl wall with heat element to the bottom of the bowl (now the top).


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## johno

One of the users of my vaporizer recently had some problems with the cap popping off when vaporizing and asked what the problem could be. I went through the normal problems like blocked nozzle or dirty nozzle and went through the cleaning methods and then asked him to let me know how he got on with his treating. He came back to me with some interesting observations, he was using Florida labs OA as I had advised and he was helping out a friend with treatments and was using the friends OA supplied by a bee company which was stated to be 97% pure OA and this was where the problem was occurring. When he swopped over to the stuff from Florida labs which is 99.6% pure OA the problem went away. Now through the entire development of my vaporizers dating back to 2017 the only OA that I have ever used has been from Florida labs. So at the end of it all beware as all OA is not the same.


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## crab414

I have had the same experience with Mann Lake wood bleach crystals. After 100 treatments or so I couldn't keep the caps on.
I ended up using a set of torch tip cleaners and very carefully cleaning the delivery tube. At the elbow is where mine was plugged. 
I too now only use Florida Labs.


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## 123456789

I just built a down and dirty backup unit while I'm waiting for parts for a more sophisticated unit.


----------



## MichiganMike

Johno, I need another easy vac, check your private messages.


----------



## Biermann

Soldered connections are iffy at the best. They may hold, depending on the temperature set, but welded is better.


----------



## 123456789

Biermann said:


> Soldered connections are iffy at the best. They may hold, depending on the temperature set, but welded is better.


If you're talking to me, they are brazed with 1300-1500 degree F rod. I got into making my own after the MK350 terminator vaporizer I bought fell apart because they use 400 degree F solder.


----------



## Rogue26

For those who are installing the discharge tube towards the bottom of the bowl and curving the tube up inside the bowl could you describe your set up or possibly post a couple of pictures? I am getting ready to build a new bowl and would like to try that style.

Thanks,


----------



## crofter

Rogue26 said:


> For those who are installing the discharge tube towards the bottom of the bowl and curving the tube up inside the bowl could you describe your set up or possibly post a couple of pictures? I am getting ready to build a new bowl and would like to try that style.
> 
> Thanks,


Try to have that vertical riser in firm contact with the side of the bowl which is where the max heat input is. Easy to eye dropper in some water and small stainless steel cable into a preheated unit for cleaning. Water dropped into hot tube thermal shocks the scale. That small stainless steel cable snakes through end to end: Probably could even be chucked in a drill. Forget about the wimpy pipe cleaners!

Apparently some brands of OA have differing amounts of trace elements that are more or less prone to causing build up in discharge tube. Good to keep regular cleaning in mind when you design or build heaters.


----------



## Jbee6000

Greetings,

I’m getting a bit of OA collecting at the end of the discharge tube, but no internal plugging. I’m running a bottom tube along the inside of bowl, 1 3/8” measuring from the bottom of the inside copper bowl. I’ve tested 3/16” and 1/4” tubing, same result. I tested my temp set point at 220c to 250c on the mypin controller, no change in result. Tested both band heaters I have, 250 watt and 380 watt, same result, just the 380 watt heats and recovers faster. I’m starting to think it’s the wood bleach from the local store. I’ve ordered the 99.6% pure OA and waiting to receive so I can test. I’ve also tested my bowl heating temps with an infrared thermometer.

Any other suggestions would be appreciated?

Thanks much!


----------



## 123456789

I keep a small propane torch on hand to quickly clear any residue. Heat the tube and poof vapor.


----------



## crofter

Two different deposits. Some recrystallyized OA is one thing and as spadeapiaries says easily poofed away with heat. The other does not disappear with heat; may be some kind of ferrous compound (speculation). Iron is often listed as a tramp component of Oxalic Acid. Some user complaints seem to be the latter issue.


----------



## Jbee6000

Thanks, good tip. It’s not clogging and drops off with a small tap. I was wondering if this is normal? It’s my first time using OA to treat. The above seems to happen with only 1/2 teaspoon of OA vs. 1/4 teaspoon when I’m treating my single brood hives.


----------



## 123456789

crofter said:


> Two different deposits. Some recrystallyized OA is one thing and as spadeapiaries says easily poofed away with heat. The other does not disappear with heat; may be some kind of ferrous compound (speculation). Iron is often listed as a tramp component of Oxalic Acid. Some user complaints seem to be the latter issue.


I'm using FDC 99.6% PURE OXALIC ACID Powder and have had good luck so far. Everything seems to poof away with heat.


----------



## Jbee6000

Thanks for the guidance everyone. My FDC OA will arrive on Friday and we will see if that solves this.


----------



## Jbee6000

Greetings everyone,

I tested with 99.6% OA and still get a bit of OA collection on the tip at the end of the vapor cycle. What’s interesting is the amount of OA that collects is much less on additional tests, so I’m wondering if the bowl temp is a lot lower on the first cycle vs the set team. Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks -j


----------



## Jbee6000

(Edited) duplicate, removed post


----------



## crofter

I turn mine on to warm up while I fill caps and install entrance blocks. Have not noticed any buildup. I do notice that the bowl temperature overshoots the set temperature more after a discharge than on the initial preheat. Maybe try a bit longer preheat if you have not already.


----------



## 123456789

I'm diving in head first. The hardest part so far has been the long wait for parts, and in some cases finding out they are the wrong parts and starting over. 

I couldn't afford the $500.00 vaporizer so I'm spending $1,000.00 to make my own!? 

https://youtu.be/JOpa-3Ec3PA


----------



## johno

Spade, I think a lot of your research is about 2 years behind the curve.


----------



## 123456789

johno said:


> Spade, I think a lot of your research is about 2 years behind the curve.


Enlighten me. Some guys say this and some guys say that, heat sink, no heat sink, 3/16", 1/4", 250W, 380W, copper pipe, steel pipe, inside, outside, and on and on. I haven't found where everyone came together around just one design?


----------



## JWPalmer

Spadeapiaries, if I were to be taking advice from someone, it would be the one that had a successful design and was selling it with scores of happy customers. Oh, that would be johno or biermann here on Beesource. What I think John was alluding to was that you are reinventing the wheel by trial and error instead of following in the footsteps of those that have already been there and done that.


----------



## crofter

JWPalmer said:


> Spadeapiaries, if I were to be taking advice from someone, it would be the one that had a successful design and was selling it with scores of happy customers. Oh, that would be johno or biermann here on Beesource. What I think John was alluding to was that you are reinventing the wheel by trial and error instead of following in the footsteps of those that have already been there and done that.


Dad had a saying "Learn from other peoples mistakes; A man does not live long enough to make them all himself! 

I have made a number of different ones starting with bowl or wand types 12 v then on to the band heater types. There are lots of little details that make big differences in workability. It can be quite a head banger just to select the proper PID temperature controller and program it. I decided to buy one for my son for Christmas this past year. Being in Canada it was less fuss for me to give the nod to Biermann than bring the one in from Johno in the US. I tried it out and my DIY units are now on the shelf for emergency! Now I have to order another one for my son.


----------



## 123456789

I have read all 51 pages of this thread several times and many others. Johno has a great design and has captured the low end market. I have made one like his and one with a heat sink and like the heat sink better.

The $500.00 model has a very good following also but on the top end of the market.
I think I can do as good and maybe improve the weak copper pipe issues I've read about.

Having a nice lathe is key and my CNC mill will put some nice finishing touches on.
Mine will cost more to make than Johno's but I think that will show. A machined spacer instead of 3 stacked nuts, if I can work it out steel pipes instead of soft copper, teflon caps with O-rings, and that heat sink.
The 56% silver solder is expensive but if it works with steel pipes it will be worth it. If I need to go with a Stainless Steel pot to get a steel or SS pipe to work I have a never ending supply.


----------



## johno

Basically for the copper vessel you do not get much better than a 11/4" copper coupling to which a metal disc can be welded with silfos, The outlet tube should be no further than 2" long from where it joins to the hottest part of the bowl, 1/4" or 3/16" up to you although I found that with the 1/4" outlet I had more unsublimated crystals with the vapor. I now use a 1/4" bolt to hold the bowl off of the aluminum strip so there is only one nut between the bowl and the strip. An Uxcel thermocouple is bolted directly to the bottom of the bowl and I doubt that there could be any faster reaction to the temperature fluctuations than this system. The unit is heated by a 275 watt MX15006 11/2"x 11/2" band heater available from Plastic Process Equipment for around $15 plus shipping and it is insulated with 5/16" Grapho glass wound around the outside of the bowl. I do not think there is a vaporizer out there that will beat the heat up and recovery times of this setup remember efficiency at a reasonable price is what we are looking for. The temperature controller used is a relay operated unit which has served well and for this application a solid state relay is not required as it will only push up the price and size of the unit. As to having a large volume under the bowl for a heat sink, i cannot see any advantage to this, perhaps a disadvantage will be a slower movement in temperature due to the mass retaining the temperature whereas with a copper bottom I can see when the OA hits the bottom as the temperature immediately drops to around 300 degrees. I have also looked at providing a steel outlet on the Easy Vap which is easy as you can purchase rolls of copper coated brake tubing and I have made up one that I have used but feel if not used with the respect it needs that instead of bending the outlet tube the copper bowl could be damaged.


----------



## JWPalmer

The 56% Ag should work fine. I have used 15% on cast iron to Cu connections and used 45% on brass to brass connections that were small but had to be very strong. Even on the ProVap, the tube is a weak point that bends if you allow the vaporizer to hang in the hole.
I misunderstood and did not realize you were attempting to improve the existing designs.


----------



## crofter

Stainless steel has very poor heat conductance; less than 10% of copper's. That has implications in a discharge pipe or the bowl of the unit. 

The silver brazing alloys have good behavior in acid environments but the Sil phos alloys do not. Most do not contain any silver at all; forget about the Sil part of the name. The phosphorus self fluxes on copper and high copper alloys but not with iron and stainless steel. Even if you flux it, the joints can fail in time. The genuine silver brazing alloys from 40 to 60% silver are the way to go. If your joints fit well a little bit goes a long way.

Biermanns design has the joints tig welded but not many have the equipment for that.


----------



## 123456789

Great information, thanks everyone.


----------



## 123456789

1 1/4" Stainless Steel dairy pipe, 1/4" Stainless Steel tubing, 56% silver solder, and MAP-Pro gas. Fastest easiest solder I've done so far.

.


----------



## Rogue26

After a couple of revisions I think I finally have something I really like. I still might try to make a cup with the discharge tube at the bottom.


----------



## 123456789

That's a good looking box. 3d printed I'm guessing? I would love to get a dozen like it.


----------



## johno

Nice looking unit, I would worry about the heat from the aluminum bar softening the plastic and loosening the bar.


----------



## Rogue26

johno said:


> Nice looking unit, I would worry about the heat from the aluminum bar softening the plastic and loosening the bar.


time will tell for sure but I ran a heat test at 450 for a little over an hour and the bar at the case was warm to the touch but not hot enough to burn you and the case still maintained its rigidity. I have been trying to come up with something use to isolate it from the case but couldn’t come up with anything that I liked that was readily available


----------



## Rogue26

Spadeapiaries said:


> That's a good looking box. 3d printed I'm guessing? I would love to get a dozen like it.


yes, 3d printed using PLA filament. I would love a dozen of them to but unfortunately the guy printing them for me can’t provide that many since it takes so long to print them. Wish I was experienced with printing stuff.


----------



## 123456789

Rogue26 said:


> time will tell for sure but I ran a heat test at 450 for a little over an hour and the bar at the case was warm to the touch but not hot enough to burn you and the case still maintained its rigidity. I have been trying to come up with something use to isolate it from the case but couldn’t come up with anything that I liked that was readily available


I found some cheap teflon cutting boards and cut them into small squares on my table saw. So far they are working well for insulation but I haven't put a long day of vaping on them yet.


----------



## 123456789

Rogue26 said:


> yes, 3d printed using PLA filament. I would love a dozen of them to but unfortunately the guy printing them for me can’t provide that many since it takes so long to print them. Wish I was experienced with printing stuff.


My son runs a shop with several 3d printers but I think they have been shut down since this COVID thing started. If you had the printing program (CAD/CAM/ToolPaths?) I could see if he could run some for both of us. On long runs he set up the printers to run all night. It helps that he has maybe a half dozen 3d printers.


----------



## Rogue26

Spadeapiaries said:


> I found some cheap teflon cutting boards and cut them into small squares on my table saw. So far they are working well for insulation but I haven't put a long day of vaping on them yet.


Good to know. What are you using for a bar? I am using just a standard 1 1/2” by 1/4” AL flat bar


----------



## 123456789

Rogue26 said:


> Good to know. What are you using for a bar? I am using just a standard 1 1/2” by 1/4” AL flat bar


1/8" X 1 1/4" galvanized steel flat bar. Just for ease of bending but with that box yours don't need bending and I like the look of aluminum. I do think Aluminum does transmit heat better but probably not enough difference over time to make or break which is best. I have a stack of those aluminum bars.


----------



## Rogue26

Spadeapiaries said:


> 1/8" X 1 1/4" galvanized steel flat bar. Just for ease of bending but with that box yours don't need bending and I like the look of aluminum. I do think Aluminum does transmit heat better but probably not enough difference over time to make or break which is best. I have a stack of those aluminum bars.


I thought about doing something similar but I am trying to build one that limits the amount of effort in assembly. Agree with the heat transfer but I was thinking that by using the larger thicker bar that it would take longer to heat up overall. With running it at 450 for the hour I figured that would be worst case most of the time since the temperature drops with each treatment and then has to build back up. So it doesn’t stay at a constant 450 over that time period.


----------



## Jbee6000

Great looking design Rogue! I have a 3d printed design where I can build the Vap in about 30 min each, though I have to wait for the 7 hour printed parts lol. The cook bowl is the only thing that takes me time but I can make one in about 15 min. I punch the disc for the copper bottom and brazing takes no time at all. I have the outlet tube exiting the bottom on my design.

As for the heat transfer from the bowl to the housing, I use the 1.5 AL bar as well and find it dissipates faster than the one inch bars due to the additional mass. I also was successful in eliminating the heat transfer by using a small ceramic spacer sandwiched inside of two nylon & stainless washers. That was more effort than it was worth in my opinion and I also had to ground the bowl since it was then suspended by the nylon & ceramic. Lots of extra work!

Also, I use PETG vs PLA. It is stronger and more heat resistant than PLA. I worried about the PLA warping in the sun. I saw some research that showed that the darker colors would absorb the heat and warp in one hour.

Rogue, how long does your design take to print? I‘m guessing 9-10 hours?

-j


----------



## Rogue26

Jbee6000 said:


> Great looking design Rogue! I have a 3d printed design where I can build the Vap in about 30 min each, though I have to wait for the 7 hour printed parts lol. The cook bowl is the only thing that takes me time but I can make one in about 15 min. I punch the disc for the copper bottom and brazing takes no time at all. I have the outlet tube exiting the bottom on my design.
> 
> As for the heat transfer from the bowl to the housing, I use the 1.5 AL bar as well and find it dissipates faster than the one inch bars due to the additional mass. I also was successful in eliminating the heat transfer by using a small ceramic spacer sandwiched inside of two nylon & stainless washers. That was more effort than it was worth in my opinion and I also had to ground the bowl since it was then suspended by the nylon & ceramic. Lots of extra work!
> 
> Also, I use PETG vs PLA. It is stronger and more heat resistant than PLA. I worried about the PLA warping in the sun. I saw some research that showed that the darker colors would absorb the heat and warp in one hour.
> 
> Rogue, how long does your design take to print? I‘m guessing 9-10 hours?
> 
> -j


I was mistaken with the PLA comment it is PETG material that is used. It is a pretty long print time for it. With the use of the 1.5” flat-bar did you stop using the ceramic spacers? I gave my first unit to a commercial beekeeping buddy and am waiting to hear back on his experience using it for treatments. I really feel like the heat transfer won’t be an issue but want some feedback from someone who will use it for the better part of a day at a time.


----------



## Jbee6000

Awesome, PETG seems like the way to go. I stopped using this ceramic spacer when I started using the 1.5“ bar vs 1“ bar. I still sandwich the bar with 1” Nylon+ Stainless fender washers which seem to help dissipate the heat more in my testing. The ceramic was expensive and took way more extra time with the build. I‘m trying to get my build process down to under 15 minutes while keeping cost as low as possible  btw, I get next to no heat transfer that makes its way to the housing. I‘m assuming that is due to the 1.5” bigger bar and nylon sandwich.


----------



## Rogue26

Jbee6000 said:


> Awesome, PETG seems like the way to go. I stopped using this ceramic spacer when I started using the 1.5“ bar vs 1“ bar. I still sandwich the bar with 1” Nylon+ Stainless fender washers which seem to help dissipate the heat more in my testing. The ceramic was expensive and took way more extra time with the build. I‘m trying to get my build process down to under 15 minutes while keeping cost as low as possible  btw, I get next to no heat transfer that makes its way to the housing. I‘m assuming that is due to the 1.5” bigger bar and nylon sandwich.


Are you using nylon on each side of the flat bar, spacing the bar off the box by a washer or are you using one on the inside of the box between the bolt head and one between the nut and flat bar on the outside?


----------



## Jbee6000

Rogue26 said:


> Are you using nylon on each side of the flat bar, spacing the bar off the box by a washer or are you using one on the inside of the box between the bolt head and one between the nut and flat bar on the outside?


I inlay my bar to directly to the box and use one stainless washer for strength on the inside of the box. Where I use the sandwich approach is on the bowl mount to the flat bar. order from bottom of bowl: fender washer, nut, fender washer, 1” nylon washer, bar, 1” nylon washer, fender washer, nylon Insert stop nut. Heat does not seem to transfer more than one inch from that point on the bar.


----------



## 123456789

I may have found some Stainless Steel tubing that is the perfect balance between strength and size. 1/4" OD with thick .049 walls. That brings the ID to just a little bigger than the 3/16 tubing. 

It's all I can do to bend this with my tubing bender. I need to put a knee into it. I plan to trying to bend it with heat if I need tighter bends. I will be making my pots from 1 1/2" OD Stainless Steel dairy pipe as I have stacks of it. I will also be making solid aluminum heat sinks at least 1" thick.

Once I see if the SS tubing stays clear I'll decide if I need the tighter bends and need to keep the tubing under the band heater. That will determine which band heaters end up in my final version.


----------



## Rogue26

Anyone in the group end up with some extra blue caps for the 1.25” coupling build they they might want to sell? Not ready to made a full order from the supplier yet but need some. PM me if you want to get rid of a few.

thanks


----------



## Rogue26

Rogue26 said:


> Anyone in the group end up with some extra blue caps for the 1.25” coupling build they they might want to sell? Not ready to made a full order from the supplier yet but need some. PM me if you want to get rid of a few.
> 
> thanks


I am no longer looking for them. I went ahead and ordered a batch from CA Plugs


----------



## Leesbeessuperiorco

Anyone have plans for 3D printing the enclosure that they are willing to share?


----------



## fredn

johno said:


> Basically for the copper vessel you do not get much better than a 11/4" copper coupling to which a metal disc can be welded with silfos, The outlet tube should be no further than 2" long from where it joins to the hottest part of the bowl, 1/4" or 3/16" up to you although I found that with the 1/4" outlet I had more unsublimated crystals with the vapor. I now use a 1/4" bolt to hold the bowl off of the aluminum strip so there is only one nut between the bowl and the strip. An Uxcel thermocouple is bolted directly to the bottom of the bowl and I doubt that there could be any faster reaction to the temperature fluctuations than this system. The unit is heated by a 275 watt MX15006 11/2"x 11/2" band heater available from Plastic Process Equipment for around $15 plus shipping and it is insulated with 5/16" Grapho glass wound around the outside of the bowl. I do not think there is a vaporizer out there that will beat the heat up and recovery times of this setup remember efficiency at a reasonable price is what we are looking for. The temperature controller used is a relay operated unit which has served well and for this application a solid state relay is not required as it will only push up the price and size of the unit. As to having a large volume under the bowl for a heat sink, i cannot see any advantage to this, perhaps a disadvantage will be a slower movement in temperature due to the mass retaining the temperature whereas with a copper bottom I can see when the OA hits the bottom as the temperature immediately drops to around 300 degrees. I have also looked at providing a steel outlet on the Easy Vap which is easy as you can purchase rolls of copper coated brake tubing and I have made up one that I have used but feel if not used with the respect it needs that instead of bending the outlet tube the copper bowl could be damaged.


Johno is the outside of the heating bowl gray duct tape? Was just curious... it looks like it.


----------



## 123456789

fredn said:


> Johno is the outside of the heating bowl gray duct tape? Was just curious... it looks like it.


Gray duct tape around muffler wrap I think. I've wondered how that tape holds up? My muffler wrap melts at some point.


----------



## johno

Spadeapiaries said:


> Gray duct tape around muffler wrap I think. I've wondered how that tape holds up? My muffler wrap melts at some point.


Fredn, the copper bowl is wrapped with 5/16" grapho glass rope and then that is covered by heavy duty duck tape. The purpose of the duck tape is to prevent the glass rope from unravelling and it does just that.


----------



## johno

johno said:


> Fredn, the copper bowl is wrapped with 5/16" grapho glass rope and then that is covered by heavy duty duck tape. The purpose of the duck tape is to prevent the glass rope from unravelling and it does just that.


I would just add that once the duct tape is wrapped around the insulation the bottom edge and the top can be shrunk with a heat gun and smoothed down with a stailess steel blade.


----------



## fredn

Thank you!


----------



## 123456789

Jbee6000 said:


> Great looking design Rogue! I have a 3d printed design where I can build the Vap in about 30 min each, though I have to wait for the 7 hour printed parts lol. The cook bowl is the only thing that takes me time but I can make one in about 15 min. I punch the disc for the copper bottom and brazing takes no time at all. I have the outlet tube exiting the bottom on my design.
> 
> As for the heat transfer from the bowl to the housing, I use the 1.5 AL bar as well and find it dissipates faster than the one inch bars due to the additional mass. I also was successful in eliminating the heat transfer by using a small ceramic spacer sandwiched inside of two nylon & stainless washers. That was more effort than it was worth in my opinion and I also had to ground the bowl since it was then suspended by the nylon & ceramic. Lots of extra work!
> 
> Also, I use PETG vs PLA. It is stronger and more heat resistant than PLA. I worried about the PLA warping in the sun. I saw some research that showed that the darker colors would absorb the heat and warp in one hour.
> 
> Rogue, how long does your design take to print? I‘m guessing 9-10 hours?
> 
> -j


Any pictures?


----------



## Leesbeessuperiorco

By the way - saw a pretty cool 3d print for a “cheap vap” handle:









Pistol Grip for aluminum bar by hancockks


AR 15 grip modified to slide into an aluminum bar, used for an oxalic acid vaporizer utilizing a band heater. Printed in two parts and then epoxied to minimize supports and imbed the nut in the handle using a 1/4-20 machine screw & nut Print Settings Printer brand: Creality Printer: Ender 3...




www.thingiverse.com


----------



## 123456789

My 3d printer will be here in time for the new year. I'll test that out.


----------



## 123456789

I have been too busy with my engraving business during the Christmas season to work on these but I found a little time today (inspired to get moving by my new 3d printer) to build a couple Stainless Steel pots with thick walled Stainless Steel tubing.
The 56% Silver solder is easy to work with and I think these are going to be as close to indestructible as one can get. I'm going to build these with an aluminum heat sink which I'm going to the lathe to make now.


----------



## Biermann

Hello SA,

That looks nice and I understand your approach and desired target, but would like to mention several facts, just for discussion purpose, not to make your day miserable.

SS is not even in the first top ten materials for thermal conductivity, one reason I have not tried it, but (one of) the reason why I use 1/4" SS screws & washers to fasten the bowls to my alu frames.

The top mounted, bottom sweep vaporizing tube has about double the length then the straight tube = double the heat-loss and more difficulty moving the heat from your 275 watt heat band to the long tube.

Tube material, size and length are in relation and any or all will make for faster re-crystalizing of the vapor.

One reason why I stick with the k-type copper, TIG welded.

My 2 cents worth.

JoergK.


----------



## 123456789

Biermann said:


> Hello SA,
> 
> That looks nice and I understand your approach and desired target, but would like to mention several facts, just for discussion purpose, not to make your day miserable.
> 
> SS is not even in the first top ten materials for thermal conductivity, one reason I have not tried it, but (one of) the reason why I use 1/4" SS screws & washers to fasten the bowls to my alu frames.
> 
> The top mounted, bottom sweep vaporizing tube has about double the length then the straight tube = double the heat-loss and more difficulty moving the heat from your 275 watt heat band to the long tube.
> 
> Tube material, size and length are in relation and any or all will make for faster re-crystalizing of the vapor.
> 
> One reason why I stick with the k-type copper, TIG welded.
> 
> My 2 cents worth.
> 
> JoergK.


I treated 25 hives yesterday with my first Stainless Steel pot with the bottom sweep vaporizing tube and an Aluminum heat sink and it was the best I've ever used. I have the pot and tube wrapped in muffler wrap and plugging was minimal. What recrystallization I had was easily cleared with a small troch I keep on hand. I check every 3 or 4 hives and if there is ANY crystals building up I blast them with the torch and give it a minute to cool while I fill caps.

As far as thermal conductivity of one material over another I can tell you it makes so little difference with the band heaters and muffler wrap that I will choose strength over the milliseconds you think you may save.

I am anxious to try the straight tubing to see if recrystallization can be eliminated, but I love the bottom sweep vaporizing tube and with the torch it is no real problem. That said I may move it to the inside of the pot, but I need to get up to speed with my 3d printer and get busy making electronic boxes and handles.

.


----------



## Biermann

Hello All Vaporizing friends and DIY fellows. 

Johno had started this thread on Nov. 27th 2016 and I feel the community has come a long way with a thorough inside on how-to and parts needed to do a functional OA vaporizer after more then 1300 posts. It will take some long reading to go through them all, but it is possible.

Thanks John for your openness and willingness to discuss particular parts of our Vaporizer journey. We don't always have the same view on everything, but we can agree that only no mites can be the target and how we get there does not matter, here the finish is the important part of the journey.

A Happy & Healthy New Year to you all and bee the honey be plentiful and the mites be gone.

Joerg K.


----------



## johno

Biermann said:


> Hello All Vaporizing friends and DIY fellows.
> 
> Johno had started this thread on Nov. 27th 2016 and I feel the community has come a long way with a thorough inside on how-to and parts needed to do a functional OA vaporizer after more then 1300 posts. It will take some long reading to go through them all, but it is possible.
> 
> Thanks John for your openness and willingness to discuss particular parts of our Vaporizer journey. We don't always have the same view on everything, but we can agree that only no mites can be the target and how we get there does not matter, here the finish is the important part of the journey.
> 
> A Happy & Healthy New Year to you all and bee the honey be plentiful and the mites be gone.
> 
> Joerg K.



Over the last 2 1/2 years I have produced close to 3000 vaporizers and had hoped to meet the demand, however the the demand has been increasing to the point where it has become impossible for me to get even close to meeting it. I am also rapidly approaching my 77th Birthday and am getting tired of producing these vaporizers and wish to spend more of my time on the interests which I have neglected and so at this time I have decided to discontinue manufacturing vaporizers. Thank you for your support over the years but there comes a time when enough is enough and I just got there.
As soon as I can find some time I will produce some videos as to how I manufacture the parts for my vaporizer and how I put them together, this will also include a parts list and I will also put the STL files for the handle and cover onto Thingiverse so that these parts can be printed by interested beekeepers. Hopefully together we can try to make a dent in the mite population.
Johno


----------



## JWPalmer

Fight the mite! Build your own band heater vaporizer for around $100 in parts. For those of us that seem to have two left thumbs when it comes to building mechanical devices, consider purchasing a vaporizer from Biermann or RAST.

Please join me in wishing johno well as he refocuses his attention on the bees. ALL THE BEST MY FRIEND.


----------



## alfred westlake

johno said:


> Over the last 2 1/2 years I have produced close to 3000 vaporizers and had hoped to meet the demand, however the the demand has been increasing to the point where it has become impossible for me to get even close to meeting it. I am also rapidly approaching my 77th Birthday and am getting tired of producing these vaporizers and wish to spend more of my time on the interests which I have neglected and so at this time I have decided to discontinue manufacturing vaporizers. Thank you for your support over the years but there comes a time when enough is enough and I just got there.
> As soon as I can find some time I will produce some videos as to how I manufacture the parts for my vaporizer and how I put them together, this will also include a parts list and I will also put the STL files for the handle and cover onto Thingiverse so that these parts can be printed by interested beekeepers. Hopefully together we can try to make a dent in the mite population.
> Johno


Johno,
Thank you so much for all of this hard work and guidance.
*You have made a huge contribution to the Beekeeping Community!*

We are all so lucky to have you carry on this conversation and continued experimentation to help guide us all in our efforts here.


----------



## alfred westlake

ptwat said:


> Btw, I have a 3D printable box/housing that the Mypin PID controller slides into. I have several different tops and bottoms to the box as my design has evolved with strain relief holes, fuse holder holes and on/off switch holes. I can post it on thingiverse if you are interested.



*ptwat,
That is excellent.*
It would be great if you did Post these to Thingverse. I would be hugely grateful. I have been trying to figure out designing, but the learning curve is getting me.


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## fredn

Thank you so much for your awesome product. Completely understand. Would love to see the how to do... especially how to solder the tube and bottom to the heating pot.


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## Ruggggus

Johno, 
I want to thank you for the great product that you supplied me and many others. I cant speak for them, but it has changed how I keep my bees. The ease at which I can now treat them would not have happened were it not for your efforts (not buying the $500 unit). How many colonies owe thier existance to you? with 3000 easyvaps out there I would assume it is in the thousands because lets face it, making it easier to treat means we treat like we should.


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## Jbee6000

Johno you are a class act for sure! All my appreciation and best to you.

I’ve seen lots of great ideas and innovations here, keep sharing everyone.

I’ve included my latest model here that is good for front or back hive treatments. I use Petg on these for the enclosure. My aluminum bar has peek washers to avoid heat transfer to the case. I’m using 300 watt heaters. My outlet tube is 90% copper 10% nickel which makes it quite more rigid than straight copper. The outlet tube temp tests at 370-415 so it vaporizes and OA that collects at tip due to outside temperature.


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## username00101

Thanks for sharing. Personally I would have no objection to purchasing a band heater vaporizer from one of the members here.


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## alfred westlake

This is my second try at making the cookpot. I used a Benzomatic Map-pro torch and some 
Copper-Phosphor brazing. The bottom is a piece of copper tube that I flattened and cut a disc out of and the ground on it till it fit. The main piece is 1-1/4 connector and the nozzle tube is 3/16 Refrigerator tube.


----------



## johno

alfred westlake said:


> This is my second try at making the cookpot. I used a Benzomatic Map-pro torch and some
> Copper-Phosphor brazing. The bottom is a piece of copper tube that I flattened and cut a disc out of and the ground on it till it fit. The main piece is 1-1/4 connector and the nozzle tube is 3/16 Refrigerator tube.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 61800
> View attachment 61801


Nothing wrong with that.


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## alfred westlake

johno said:


> Nothing wrong with that.


So one issue that I am running into is that if I put the nozzle high enough so that it doesn't interfere with the band heater then it is partially covered by the mocap cap. I tried putting it lower but then the band heater won't close/tighten all the way. I suppose that I could have the band heater hang off the bottom a bit and that way accommodate a lower opening for the nozzle. Or I suppose I could cut a notch in the mocap cap. I haven't yet assembled everything so I don't yet know how much of an issue it will be.


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## Ruggggus

What bandheater are you employing? apparently it completely encircles the cookpot? I've noticed that some designs have a heater that when fully clamped is still open enough to allow the 3/16 tube to pass through while others have it above the band. Just curious as to which band you settled on.


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## 123456789

alfred westlake said:


> So one issue that I am running into is that if I put the nozzle high enough so that it doesn't interfere with the band heater then it is partially covered by the mocap cap. I tried putting it lower but then the band heater won't close/tighten all the way. I suppose that I could have the band heater hang off the bottom a bit and that way accommodate a lower opening for the nozzle. Or I suppose I could cut a notch in the mocap cap. I haven't yet assembled everything so I don't yet know how much of an issue it will be.


I just make my pots a little taller.


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## johno

The 1 1/4" couplings I have used are 2" long, so the 3/16" hole for the outlet needs to be 3/32" above the top of the band heater. Also if you do not let the 3/16" outlet protrude into the inside of the coupling the caps are still tapered and you should still the OA vapor to exit the outlet. You can check this by putting some water into the pot setting on the cap and then allow to heat up until the water boils and the steam escapes through the outlet, if the cap blocks the outlet the steam will pop the cap off. The reason I use the system with the outlet coming out opposite the gap in the band heater is because that is the hottest part of the heater and the gap area is the coolest. Now the difference in temperature may not be large but I still want the outlet at the hottest part.


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## alfred westlake

johno said:


> The 1 1/4" couplings I have used are 2" long, so the 3/16" hole for the outlet needs to be 3/32" above the top of the band heater. Also if you do not let the 3/16" outlet protrude into the inside of the coupling the caps are still tapered and you should still the OA vapor to exit the outlet. You can check this by putting some water into the pot setting on the cap and then allow to heat up until the water boils and the steam escapes through the outlet, if the cap blocks the outlet the steam will pop the cap off. The reason I use the system with the outlet coming out opposite the gap in the band heater is because that is the hottest part of the heater and the gap area is the coolest. Now the difference in temperature may not be large but I still want the outlet at the hottest part.


So this is how I have planned to set it up so that the gap is opposite the nozzle. I wondered if the taper in the Mocap would allow the vapor out, but have not had a chance to test it. Thanks for that confirmation. Depending on what I get done today I may be able to test today or tomorrow.

Curious how did you make your bottom pieces. I flattened a piece of pipe and then used snips to cut as close as I could and then had to spend a lot of time on the grinder and with a file. Is there a better way? If I wanted to do a lot of these this would be the tedious part I think.


Also I assuming that drilling a hole in the bottom is the best way to mount it, but had thought of braizing a bolt to the bottom so that I kept the bowls integrity. THoughts?


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## Ruggggus

I know it's John's thoughts that you are looking for but.... My initial thought to your question was that it would be benifical to keeping the pot clean which is important to keeping it operating at peak performance but then my second thought was that the head of the screw in the center of the pot will keep the sublimating OA running toward the outter walls of the pot where the heat is. I think the screw likely assists the process. So now the thought changes to welding a bolt to the underside but making the bottom domed. HMMMM..worth the added effort????


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## Ruggggus

John, what is the silver content of the rod you use? How much silver is enough? Let me re-word that. How much silver makes the weld material flow well enough on the copper?


----------



## johno

Ruggggus said:


> John, what is the silver content of the rod you use? How much silver is enough? Let me re-word that. How much silver makes the weld material flow well enough on the copper?


I use the 5% silver rod based on the price as with oxy/acetylene it welds just as well as the 15% however the 15% might be better if you are using map gas.


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## Ruggggus

Thank you for the input. I have both but haven't used the oxy/ace for 20+ years. Maybe time to dust it off. I turned the valve to the oxy this morning and to my amazement there was still pressure in the tank, guess I'll go try the acetylene.

Thanks again, without all your experimenting and sharing of it there is no way I would be building these on my own but I definately see the need. I have sent several fellow beeks your way after purchasing my own from you 2 years ago. 

There has also been great input from others doing the same so I thank you all. I will continue the tradition of sharing what I've learned when I am sure I know what I'm talking about.

I don't think a better education on OAV is possible than what is available on this site!!!


----------



## johno

johno said:


> I use the 5% silver rod based on the price as with oxy/acetylene it welds just as well as the 15% however the 15% might be better if you are using map gas.


I started off cutting 1" copper pipe into pieces then flattening it but that got old very quickly. I now buy 18 gauge by 1 1/2" copper discs from Metal Remnants. I use a 1/4" by 1" pan head screw with 2 fender washers the first to clamp the TC to the bottom of the bowl then 2 lockwashers and then another fender washer then locked down with a 1/4" nut. I finish off the insulation by pulling the 5/16" grapho glass in between those 2 fender washers. Welding a bolt onto the bottom will just add stress to the bottom and failures there create more of a problem, the pan head screw is easy and easily replaceable if problems arise. When tightening this screw the philips bit is held in a visegrip then the screw is added followed by the TC and then the first fender washer then the 2 lockwashers then the second fender washer then the nut is screwed down tight with a nut driver and then the nut is really tightened with a wrench.


----------



## johno

Ruggggus said:


> Thank you for the input. I have both but haven't used the oxy/ace for 20+ years. Maybe time to dust it off. I turned the valve to the oxy this morning and to my amazement there was still pressure in the tank, guess I'll go try the acetylene.
> 
> Thanks again, without all your experimenting and sharing of it there is no way I would be building these on my own but I definately see the need. I have sent several fellow beeks your way after purchasing my own from you 2 years ago.
> 
> There has also been great input from others doing the same so I thank you all. I will continue the tradition of sharing what I've learned when I am sure I know what I'm talking about.
> 
> I don't think a better education on OAV is possible than what is available on this site!!!


To add to this I also stand the bottom on a dry brick then put on the coupling with the nozzle attached, heat up the inside to the bottom until the bottom glows red then move the flame to the lower edge on the outside and use the rod from the inside moving the rod with the heat until the bottom is done. then thenozzle is welded to the coupling using the tip of the flame to get a good fillet aroud the 3/16" pipe then it goes into a bucket of water. any weld material under the 3/16" pipe is ground off so that the heater can sit right up against the pipe.


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## Biermann

Hello, my 2 cents. 

Sorry, but I don't have the time to read all that was said.

The idea of turning the heat element so the open side slights a little over the 3/16" vapor tube is used by me and it seems to also give more heat going in to the tube. This, kind off shows it:








Also, I put the tube now to the bottom and sweep it inside on the opposite side so it touches the bowl wall, this gives more heat transfer again.

I have noticed that the 3/16" tube turns harder when it is being used for 10-20 cycles.

We stamp the capping from the same material the bowl is made from, K-type copper tubing, 1 1/4". We TIG weld every connection, my son does that, he has a fancy rotator build with foot control and builds them by the truckload when I twist his arm far enough. It is as johnno has stated often: the hobby becomes business and the fun is gone 

Cheers, JoergK.


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## William Bagwell

Have seen band heaters with holes in them. Used to run extrusion blow molding machines at a baby product company ~20 years ago. Barrel the screw ran in might have ten identical band heaters side by side then one with a hole in it for a temperature probe. Might be too expensive for just a few, but was shocked when Johno posted he has made 3,000 of these.


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## Jbee6000

Biermann said:


> Hello, my 2 cents.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't have the time to read all that was said.
> 
> The idea of turning the heat element so the open side slights a little over the 3/16" vapor tube is used by me and it seems to also give more heat going in to the tube. This, kind off shows it:
> View attachment 61806
> 
> 
> Also, I put the tube now to the bottom and sweep it inside on the opposite side so it touches the bowl wall, this gives more heat transfer again.
> 
> I have noticed that the 3/16" tube turns harder when it is being used for 10-20 cycles.
> 
> We stamp the capping from the same material the bowl is made from, K-type copper tubing, 1 1/4". We TIG weld every connection, my son does that, he has a fancy rotator build with foot control and builds them by the truckload when I twist his arm far enough. It is as johnno has stated often: the hobby becomes business and the fun is gone
> 
> Cheers, JoergK.


----------



## johno

William Bagwell said:


> Have seen band heaters with holes in them. Used to run extrusion blow molding machines at a baby product company ~20 years ago. Barrel the screw ran in might have ten identical band heaters side by side then one with a hole in it for a temperature probe. Might be too expensive for just a few, but was shocked when Johno posted he has made 3,000 of these.


The band heaters the I use are very cheap and therefore hold down the cost. however a band heater with a hole does not really help matters as the outlet is welded in and the hole will probably be in the center of the bands width. The heaters used are basically nozzle heaters for the injection molders and are generally controlled by energy regulator not by temperature controllers so you will not find any holes for such small heaters.


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## alfred westlake

johno said:


> To add to this I also stand the bottom on a dry brick then put on the coupling with the nozzle attached, heat up the inside to the bottom until the bottom glows red then move the flame to the lower edge on the outside and use the rod from the inside moving the rod with the heat until the bottom is done. then thenozzle is welded to the coupling using the tip of the flame to get a good fillet aroud the 3/16" pipe then it goes into a bucket of water. any weld material under the 3/16" pipe is ground off so that the heater can sit right up against the pipe.


So with the 1-1/2" disc, doesn't some of that protrude out once it is done? Do you just grind it off?
I had thought of getting some discs but I was looking for some that would fit the inside diameter and those seem to be very hard to find.


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## johno

alfred westlake said:


> So with the 1-1/2" disc, doesn't some of that protrude out once it is done? Do you just grind it off?
> I had thought of getting some discs but I was looking for some that would fit the inside diameter and those seem to be very hard to find.


The 1 1/2" discs have a rag around the edge from the punch and the coupling fits inside this rag so when you weld it on from the inside you do not get much of the sil-fos or sta/silv on the outside. Still that edge needs to be ground flush and then I normally run it against a disc sander to make sure that the sides are clean and flat so that the band heater fits flat onto the surface. If the band heater is not flat against the coupling you will not get a good heat transfer and could also get hot spots on the heater that will cause an early failure. To date I have not had a heater fail yet.


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## Jbee6000

I use a similar method for my outlet tube as Biermann. They enter the bowl 1/4“ from bottom and run up the inside wall 5/8”. That way the OA does not cool it down when it liquifies and drops the bottom of the bowl temp. My tube heat up quick at over 400f at the tip.

I also use mapp gas for brazing and Johno is correct, 15% is easier than 5% silver with Mapp. If I heat the bowl longer to cherry red, 5% works just as good. I like the short brazing time with 15% and I can still braze when it’s freezing outside


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## johno

Jbee6000 said:


> I use a similar method for my outlet tube as Biermann. They enter the bowl 1/4“ from bottom and run up the inside wall 5/8”. That way the OA does not cool it down when it liquifies and drops the bottom of the bowl temp. My tube heat up quick at over 400f at the tip.
> 
> I also use mapp gas for brazing and Johno is correct, 15% is easier than 5% silver with Mapp. If I heat the bowl longer to cherry red, 5% works just as good. I like the short brazing time with 15% and I can still braze when it’s freezing outside


Jbee, don't you have a problem cleaning the bottom of the bowl with that tube down in the bottom of the hole. I build the Easy Vap Pro with the tube inside the front of the bowl and exiting through the bottom and then it makes a 90 degree bend so that you can esily treat over the bottom board into the front entrance. This is for beekeepers who cannot treat from behind their hives, however if you can treat from behind your hive it does not get easier than the Easy Vap.


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## Ruggggus

Jbee6000 Thank you for the input but I am confused. I believe I understand your setup but don't understand why taking the heated gas OA and dropping it back down (inside the 3/16" tube) through the product that hasn't reched sublimation temperature yet isn't cooling the gas (though it be only slightly). The highest temperature is at the sidewalls not the bottom, agreed? Plus it makes it difficult to keep the cup clean which affects performance and cleaning the tube has got to be near impossible as the crystalised OA is very hard unless heated. How are you cleaning the tube?
I'm currently thinking that getting the OA gas out of the cup by the shortest route is the best way, but my mind can be changed.


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## Jbee6000

johno said:


> Jbee, don't you have a problem cleaning the bottom of the bowl with that tube down in the bottom of the hole. I build the Easy Vap Pro with the tube inside the front of the bowl and exiting through the bottom and then it makes a 90 degree bend so that you can esily treat over the bottom board into the front entrance. This is for beekeepers who cannot treat from behind their hives, however if you can treat from behind your hive it does not get easier than the Easy Vap.


Ah, I should have been more clear  I run the tube flush on the inside front wall - same side it enters bowl, it does not sweep across the bowl. I also put extra brazing to fill the gaps on the side, also seems to help with heat transfer.


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## Ruggggus

John, While your on can you give your thoughts on where you think it best to insert the working end of the sublimator into the hive? I am aware that the gas cools quickly but placing it directly where the bees are is going to kill those who don't get out of the way correct? I think the only safe place is the back of the hive bottom board. I then crack the cover if needed to make sure there is air flow through the hive because I have noticed that the OAV does not circulate well if there is not air flow. Your thoughts? I believe this is one of the many benifits of the band type OA sublimator over the wand, you are frying less if any bees (and you eliminate the chance for burr comb hanging off the bottom frames from catching your hive on fire.)


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## Jbee6000

Ruggggus said:


> Jbee6000 Thank you for the input but I am confused. I believe I understand your setup but don't understand why taking the heated gas OA and dropping it back down (inside the 3/16" tube) through the product that hasn't reched sublimation temperature yet isn't cooling the gas (though it be only slightly). The highest temperature is at the sidewalls not the bottom, agreed? Plus it makes it difficult to keep the cup clean which affects performance and cleaning the tube has got to be near impossible as the crystalised OA is very hard unless heated. How are you cleaning the tube?
> I'm currently thinking that getting the OA gas out of the cup by the shortest route is the best way, but my mind can be changed.


Hi Rugggus,

Sorry I was not clear.

The outlet tube enters the bowl close to the bottom but stops short so the OA does not cool it down. It runs up the inside front sidewall 5/8”. OA does not seem to be collecting in the tube, maybe I have not ran through enough cycles of treatment? I clean by putting water in the bowl and boiling it off. I also use a wire brush on a dremel to clean the bowl. below is a better picture of my setup.

thanks for your input, definitely appreciated


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## Ruggggus

that sure is a fine looking unit!!! What does it cost to print that (minus the cost of the printer)? can we see more photos?


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## Jbee6000

Thanks Rugggus - so lots of print time, 18 hours for all the parts. its about $5-7 in PETG filament per unit. I haven’t calculated the electrical and printer depreciation yet. I have 3 printers than run around the clock.


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## Biermann

Looks great Jbee6000!

I turn the clamp band on the element 180 degree so the bolt point to the PID. It makes zip tying a PE block to protect the nozzle during shipping much easier.


----------



## 123456789

Jbee6000 said:


> Thanks Rugggus - so lots of print time, 18 hours for all the parts. its about $5-7 in PETG filament per unit. I haven’t calculated the electrical and printer depreciation yet. I have 3 printers than run around the clock.


Have you tried Heat treatable PLA? On the 3d printer forums the consciences is that it is better for high heat applications. That may be overkill?

HTPLA v3 prints like standard PLA, but can be _heat treated_ for much _higher temperature_ stability than standard PLA


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## Jbee6000

Biermann - great idea on turning the clamp. I’m sure it is also nice that you don’t have it in the way when treating. I’m currently using a 300 watt 1 3/8” heater on a 1 1/4” coupling so the extra span distance does not allow me to turn it 180 degrees.

Spadeapiaris - I considered HPLA but I believe you have to bake it in the oven to get the heat properties. I didn’t want that extra step in my process. Also, I’m not sure about the UV protection.

My bars have not gotten hot enough to melt PETG ”yet” and I also sandwich the bar on one side with PEEK washers and Nylon on the base side to slow down heat transfer. Hopefully that continues to do the trick. If not, I will redesign my base to accept a wood insert below the bar which will stop any heat transfer.

below is the newest design with a few upgrades:

-textured grip
-streamlined the heater wires to run straight through base
-added power switch 
-changed vent design


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## alfred westlake

johno said:


> Laketrout the last post explains, to take the tip of the thermocouple and clamp it between the bottom of the bowl and a fender washer by means of the #10 screw that you will use to hold the bowl onto a piece of aluminum bar. So insert the screw through the hole in the bottom of the bowl, lay the thermocouple onto the bowl add a fender washer and a nut to clamp the washer and the thermocouple to the bottom of the bowl and using a phillips screwdriver to hold the screw on the inside of the bowl use a wrench on the nut outside and tighten as hard as you can then add 3 more nuts to space the bowl from the bar or whatever you are bolting the thing onto and away you go.
> Johno



Do you get the entire end under there or do you just clamp down the bare wire that sticks out the end of the black end wrap? That little piece of twisted wire is so small it seems it would be fragile.


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## Ruggggus

John isn't currently on but I can answer that. He strips the two wires back about 7/16" and strips the outer jacket back from that about 3/8", twists the bare wires together and pinches it under the fender washer up to the outer jacket so that the wire coating is pinched under the washer as well. Make sense?


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## Jbee6000

Greeting, has anyone used the auto tune on the my pin controller? I’m curious of the results. It seems it might provide less overshooting during heat up though, I’m not sure how it would calibrate the temp changes during treatment. Any experience or advice welcome.


----------



## crofter

Jbee6000 said:


> Greeting, has anyone used the auto tune on the my pin controller? I’m curious of the results. It seems it might provide less overshooting during heat up though, I’m not sure how it would calibrate the temp changes during treatment. Any experience or advice welcome.




I think it works well to narrow the fluctuations when it is sitting idle but dumping in such a dynamic load suggests a far greater mass. I think a person may be able to shorten the time between sampling events and reduce overshoot after a charge is blown off. I played around a bit with it but got everything bolixed up and made me, for a while at least, wished I had not gone there Definitely a bit above my pay grade! Know just enough to be dangerous.


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## Biermann

Hello Jbee6000,

The once I had used normally started out that way and I felt too it reduced overshooting. The location of the temp. pickup, bowl connection and heat transfer is evenly important to manage the 'over shoot'.

As mentioned before, I switched to the Inkbird and feel they are much superior and one doesn't have to convert from °f to °c.


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## RAST

I personally think the auto tune over works the relay and shortens the life. I played with it extensively. I have seen no damage from the overshoot and it usually at it’s worst on initial startup, when working the hives it doesn’t have time to overshoot if your work flow is going well.


----------



## crofter

RAST said:


> I personally think the auto tune over works the relay and shortens the life. I played with it extensively. I have seen no damage from the overshoot and it usually at it’s worst on initial startup, when working the hives it doesn’t have time to overshoot if your work flow is going well.


That makes sense. One I am playing with updates about every 20 seconds. I am not sure what setting is on the one I got from Joerg Biermann. I wonder if the caps would suffer less heat damage if the overshoot was moderated. This has not been a problem with Joerg's but was an issue when I was using one without a control.

I want to get a few more caps to speed up my operation so will have to get a conversation going again with Joerg.


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## Biermann

Hello Frank, you can have some spare caps, tell me what you need in a pm.

@ All - I feel we can go easily to 360-380°F to get a good results. I mention that in the (newer?) manuals.

JoergK.


----------



## alfred westlake

Well I gave it a test drive today and it worked great!
I am unsure of the temp control setting though. I changed it to Fahrenheit and set it to 420.
so many control settings and all the youtube vids are clear as mud as to what they are all for.
But it is working!!


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## Biermann

I set it to 400°F or 204°C, but feel that 380°F or 194°C are suffiecient to give good result, but since everyone runs in the 400°F direction, this old elephant runs the same direction.


----------



## crofter

Edit; I see Joerg posted the information while I was typing so I have removed my echo


----------



## johno

crofter said:


> Edit; I see Joerg posted the information while I was typing so I have removed my echo





crofter said:


> Edit; I see Joerg posted the information while I was typing so I have removed my echo


Quite frankly I set my units to 440F if Mypin and 450F if Inkbird which helps in sublimation time as that allows more calories to be stored in the copper. The most important temperature is the temperature that the bottom reaches once the OA hits the bottom and this should be in the 300F area. This is due to the energy required to change the state of water to steam and OA to gas which must happen in every treatment cycle. Now if you were to use maybe a 1500 watt heater you could set the temperature at 370F and get a quick sublimation, but what needs to be bourne in mind is if using that with an inverter and 12 volt battery you would be drawing around 130 amps so what we try to attain is the best with as low a heater as we can get so we can try to get by with a draw of 25 amps on a 12 volt source. Insulating the bowl also adds to the efficiency as does as little metal attached to the bottom of the bowl. In the end we want the treatment done in as little time as possible, recovery time as short as possible and using as little power as possible.


----------



## Slomas

alfred westlake said:


> Well I gave it a test drive today and it worked great!
> I am unsure of the temp control setting though. I changed it to Fahrenheit and set it to 420.
> so many control settings and all the youtube vids are clear as mud as to what they are all for.
> But it is working!!
> View attachment 61866
> View attachment 61866
> View attachment 61867
> View attachment 61868


wow that is really great


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## alfred westlake

How are people ending off the thermocouple wires. I bared them back and used some electrical tape to wrap around the insulation so that it wouldn't unravel, then I just wrapped the wires around the terminals on the mypin controller. They are so small and they seem very flimsy.


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## RAST

A drop of super glue on the insulation keeps it from unraveling.


----------



## Biermann

Hello Alfred,

We make them 8" long from roll stock. The ringend gets solder on. Each of the PID ends gets small heatshrink and both get combined in the next larger heatskring pulled over the woven shield, too. My son makes them 200 a time.


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## rangerpeterj

Do the hot pot end of the thermocouple need to be soldered together or can you just twist the ends together ? I soldered mine together with sylfos 15% silver and mapgas. I was a little concerned about melting the very small wires, but it worked OK.I left my insulation raveled, but I do like your idea to make them neater. I have been following this thread from the beginning ,I made all the different models over the years We all owe JohnO a lot of thanks. Thank You JohnO . Pete


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## Biermann

Hello rangerpeterj,

Yes, solder!

Attached pictures how we do it now for some hundreds of units and they all work.


----------



## crofter

Here is a couple of links to different ways of doing type K thermocouple junctions if you have to shorten or repair.









Making Thermocouple Junctions


Working on a project where i will need 14, Type K Thermocouples with various length wires. I have a 100 foot roll of Type K wire I got on Ebay. I...




forums.qrz.com







https://xdevs.com/article/k-probe/


----------



## alfred westlake

I did a bunch of hives today. It worked great except that I had to constantly clear the nozzle tube out. I found a drill bit that fit perfectly and used the cordless drill to ream it out in between every other application. Wasn't a big deal.


----------



## johno

alfred westlake said:


> I did a bunch of hives today. It worked great except that I had to constantly clear the nozzle tube out. I found a drill bit that fit perfectly and used the cordless drill to ream it out in between every other application. Wasn't a big deal.


The outlet tube can be no more than 2" long if copper probably a little less if from some other metal.


----------



## JWPalmer

Joerg and Frank, I decided to to follow your advice. Thanks!


----------



## 123456789

alfred westlake said:


> I did a bunch of hives today. It worked great except that I had to constantly clear the nozzle tube out. I found a drill bit that fit perfectly and used the cordless drill to ream it out in between every other application. Wasn't a big deal.


I just keep this little torch on hand and heat the tube about every 3rd hive and I don't have problems.


----------



## johno

Spadeapiaries said:


> I just keep this little torch on hand and heat the tube about every 3rd hive and I don't have problems.
> 
> 
> View attachment 61973





Spadeapiaries said:


> I just keep this little torch on hand and heat the tube about every 3rd hive and I don't have problems.
> 
> 
> View attachment 61973


Another reason that I set my temperature controllers to run at around 450 degrees is that it will have the outlet hotter to start with, when my OA hits the bottom of the bowl the temperature drops to around 300 degrees which indicates that the water boil off and OA sublimation is not at 450 but starts at around 300 and climbs from there to 400 degrees when all the OA on the bottom will have been sublimated. However as the nozzle comes out of the side it will not drop as fast as the bottom temperature and with the copper outlets no longer than 2" I rarely have any blockages unless the nozzle comes into contact with moisture in the hive,


----------



## Jbee6000

I was using a very strong 90% copper and 10% 1/4” nickel outlet tube for a bit until it could not heat up to temperature especially - in cold weather. Now I run 100% copper and have no issues with heating the outlet tube to 400f with similar PID settings. My tube is cut to 1 3/8” measured from the bowl to tip.


----------



## alfred westlake

Not being an electrician I want to be sure that I have done things correctly.
I have a 3 prong 3 wire power cord that is 18 AGW.
I have used pieces from this to do all of the wiring inside my box.
I have the power cord ground going directly to the aluminum bar that everything is connected to.
I have also added an additional (probably unneeded) ground wire running from the connection on the bar to the bolt that holds the bowl.
I have a three prong 20 A 125VAC switch to turn it all on and off.
I used crimped insulated connectors for all of the end connections.
Except the thermocouple where I used superglue to stop the insulation from unraveling and simply wrapped the little wires around the mypin terminal screws.

I was thinking of adding a fuse in the mix somewhere to further protect things, but maybe is overkill.

Thoughts?


----------



## Jbee6000

alfred westlake said:


> Not being an electrician I want to be sure that I have done things correctly.
> I have a 3 prong 3 wire power cord that is 18 AGW.
> I have used pieces from this to do all of the wiring inside my box.
> I have the power cord ground going directly to the aluminum bar that everything is connected to.
> I have also added an additional (probably unneeded) ground wire running from the connection on the bar to the bolt that holds the bowl.
> I have a three prong 20 A 125VAC switch to turn it all on and off.
> I used crimped insulated connectors for all of the end connections.
> Except the thermocouple where I used superglue to stop the insulation from unraveling and simply wrapped the little wires around the mypin terminal screws.
> 
> I was thinking of adding a fuse in the mix somewhere to further protect things, but maybe is overkill.
> 
> Thoughts?


Hi Alfred,

I’m grounded just to the aluminum bar and testing that all metal parts are ground on every unit with a multimeter. I use heat shrink insulated connectors. I don’t use a fuse either. I will be interested in seeing what some of the more experienced makers thoughts are as well.


----------



## Biermann

I use this:
*15FT 18AWG Universal Power Cord Cable 10A/125V C13/5-15P Black*
What I found with cables is that the description and shipped product not always are the same. Make sure the cable has the '10 awg and 10 Amp' on it. I bought 200 dirt cheap that are not more then a hair in thickness and no one tells me it is 10 gauge, but it was sold as such. Normally, you pay for what you get, USD4-5 per cable is a good price.

I don't use a fuse and feel it is overkill and more cause for problem then doing good. You have a switch between the mypin out (black) and the heat elment?

A insulated handle is a good idea, too and you have that I seem to recall.

I am done with the Mypin and have complete switched to Inkbird.


----------



## Jbee6000

Biermann said:


> I use this:
> *15FT 18AWG Universal Power Cord Cable 10A/125V C13/5-15P Black*
> What I found with cables is that the description and shipped product not always are the same. Make sure the cable has the '10 awg and 10 Amp' on it. I bought 200 dirt cheap that are not more then a hair in thickness and no one tells me it is 10 gauge, but it was sold as such. Normally, you pay for what you get, USD4-5 per cable is a good price.
> 
> I don't use a fuse and feel it is overkill and more cause for problem then doing good. You have a switch between the mypin out (black) and the heat elment?
> 
> A insulated handle is a good idea, too and you have that I seem to recall.
> 
> I am done with the Mypin and have complete switched to Inkbird.


Hi Biermann,

Is the Inkbird a better PID?


----------



## Biermann

I feel it is. The mounting size is the same, the locking is much superior to the flimsy little clips on the MyPin (I had manz break during transport). The settings are easier, it starts in °C and one can set the 204°C, then switch over to °F by holding the left button for several seconds, press it 3x and switch to °F. The temperature gets automatically recalculated to the corresponding F value.

The contacts in the Inkbird are double the size as in the MyPin.

Price is the same. I still have 20 Mypin that I will list on eBay.


----------



## Jbee6000

Biermann said:


> I feel it is. The mounting size is the same, the locking is much superior to the flimsy little clips on the MyPin (I had manz break during transport). The settings are easier, it starts in °C and one can set the 204°C, then switch over to °F by holding the left button for several seconds, press it 3x and switch to °F. The temperature gets automatically recalculated to the corresponding F value.
> 
> The contacts in the Inkbird are double the size as in the MyPin.
> 
> Price is the same. I still have 20 Mypin that I will list on eBay.


Thanks - I have one at the shop and I’ve been planning to test it. The bigger contacts would save me some time as my heat shrink #6 connectors have to be pressed in to fit the Mypin.


----------



## Biermann

Sorry Jbee, you miss read. I am talking about the actual contacts (relays) inside the Inkbird verses the MyPin, not the connecting screw terminals!!


----------



## Jbee6000

Biermann said:


> Sorry Jbee, you miss read. I am talking about the actual contacts (relays) inside the Inkbird verses the MyPin, not the connecting screw terminals!!


thanks Biermann - that’s an added bonus for sure. I also just measured the terminal connector space and mypin measured at ~.24“ and Inkbird ~.29“ which will also give me more room for the connectors. Edit: Fixed typos on measurements


----------



## alfred westlake

Biermann said:


> I use this:
> *15FT 18AWG Universal Power Cord Cable 10A/125V C13/5-15P Black*
> What I found with cables is that the description and shipped product not always are the same. Make sure the cable has the '10 awg and 10 Amp' on it. I bought 200 dirt cheap that are not more then a hair in thickness and no one tells me it is 10 gauge, but it was sold as such. Normally, you pay for what you get, USD4-5 per cable is a good price.
> 
> I don't use a fuse and feel it is overkill and more cause for problem then doing good. You have a switch between the mypin out (black) and the heat elment?
> 
> A insulated handle is a good idea, too and you have that I seem to recall.
> 
> I am done with the Mypin and have complete switched to Inkbird.


My switch is between the power cord and the mypin #1 live terminal. So the black wire from the power cord goes to the switch, and the switch then goes to the mypin.


I was able to switch the mypin to Fahrenheit readings as well with little trouble. Although I will say that navigating the various settings menus is confusing. So far I have not had problems with the mypin.


----------



## Biermann

Does your mypin then turn off when you turn the switch to 'off'?


----------



## alfred westlake

Jbee6000 said:


> thanks Biermann - that’s an added bonus for sure. I also just measured the terminal connector space and mypin measured at ~2.4“and Inkbird ~2.9“ which will also give me more room for the connectors.


I have been using some 4-6 Stud forked spade terminals by Gardner Bender that I got at home depot that fit the mypin exactly. I just have to bend them 90d because my box is narrow.

Do you feel that the heat shrink connectors are superior to the plain plastic ones?


----------



## alfred westlake

Biermann said:


> Does your mypin then turn off when you turn the switch to 'off'?


Yes.
It is overkill I know, but I had some sitting around from another project, and it looks spiffy.


----------



## Biermann

The problem with that is that the PID has to restart every time you want heat again.

I use a three prong switch with a LED and have it behind the contact from the PID. The three pin switch has a ground connection and the LED is on when the heating element gets energized. This way the unit can be on all the time, but the bowl only heats up when you want it. It is also a good indicator if you have ground. Some of my customers complained about the light not working and we found they where using a ungrounded connection.


----------



## alfred westlake

Biermann said:


> The problem with that is that the PID has to restart every time you want heat again.
> 
> I use a three prong switch with a LED and have it behind the contact from the PID. The three pin switch has a ground connection and the LED is on when the heating element gets energized. This way the unit can be on all the time, but the bowl only heats up when you want it. It is also a good indicator if you have ground. Some of my customers complained about the light not working and we found they where using a ungrounded connection.



I have not thought about turning it off between boxes or really much at all. I guess that to me being able to shut all power to the device was the way to go and restarting the mypin doesn't take much. The time eater would be reheating the bowl once it is cold. But I will have to think about your arrangement.

So you have the return/neutral terminal on the switch connected to ground specifically or just have it connected to the return wire?


----------



## alfred westlake

I also remember reading somewhere in this long thread that someone, maybe it is JohnO, connects the mypin differently with the relay controlling return rather than live...? Or something like that?


----------



## Jbee6000

alfred westlake said:


> I have been using some 4-6 Stud forked spade terminals by Gardner Bender that I got at home depot that fit the mypin exactly. I just have to bend them 90d because my box is narrow.
> 
> Do you feel that the heat shrink connectors are superior to the plain plastic ones?


When I was using a cheep crimp tool the would sometimes pull off easy. I got a pro tool and it solved that problem. The heat shrink connectors I use have adhesive in them as well. If your box is narrow there might not be enough room because they are longer.


----------



## username00101

Do we have a step by step guide with the specific parts (2021 version) listed here on this thread?


----------



## Biermann

username00101 said:


> Do we have a step by step guide with the specific parts (2021 version) listed here on this thread?


I don't think we have a current list and it would depend what setup one uses.

If no one sets it in, I will try on the weekend.


----------



## username00101

Unless you're selling them, Biermann? I have an Easy Vap, but now that Johno's retired, I need to figure out how to make these things myself if the Easy Vap ever blows a fuse and I'm not capable of repairing the device myself.


----------



## Biermann

alfred westlake said:


> I also remember reading somewhere in this long thread that someone, maybe it is JohnO, connects the mypin differently with the relay controlling return rather than live...? Or something like that?


Okay Alfred, I will give my way of wiring with a picture of the switch I use.









We assume a 18AWG three prong 110VAC connecting cable.

Green goes to the frame with a jumper from the frame ring terminal to the neutral (gold color) terminal on the GSW-42 switch

Black goes to #10 on the ITC-106 with a jumper to the #1 connection (Line) on the GSW-42

White goes to #9 on the ITC-106 with a short bridge (jumper) to #8

One connection from the heat element goes to #7 on the ITC-106

The second lead from the heat element goes to the center pin (Load) on the GSW-42

The red lead from the temperature sensor goes to #3 on the ITC-106

The brown/yellowish lead from the temp. sensor goes to #4 on the ITC-106 *BTW:* if your heat display goes down when heating rather then up, switch the sensor leads on #3 & #4.

With this setup, the PID has always power when plugged-in and the bowl should heat when the the PID calls for heat. The LED in the GSW-42 will be on when the switch is turned-on *and* a good ground is present. If not, the unit should not be used because it is not grounded. I have seen problems with small power units & inverters on this.

Hope this helps. I will try to set a wiring diagram in here too when I get to it.

JoergK.


----------



## Biermann

username00101 said:


> Unless you're selling them, Biermann? I have an Easy Vap, but now that Johno's retired, I need to figure out how to make these things myself if the Easy Vap ever blows a fuse and I'm not capable of repairing the device myself.


I am selling this, but have no problem selling parts or components. We need more guys to build good units because I wanted this as a hobby, not building six a day. I have several main jobs and get a little tiered-out lately from this 'Hobby-job'.


----------



## mtnmyke

username00101 said:


> Unless you're selling them, Biermann? I have an Easy Vap, but now that Johno's retired, I need to figure out how to make these things myself if the Easy Vap ever blows a fuse and I'm not capable of repairing the device myself.


Wait, Johno's retired!? Nooo! His easy vap changed my life and I don't have the faintest idea of how to fix mine if it were to malfunction. I guess I'm going to have to be very careful with it moving forward and pay attention to this post and many of you seem to know what you're doing - or maybe someone else will step up and offer something similar for sale in the future.


----------



## alfred westlake

I have a couple more touches to Iron out and then I will try my hand at selling them.
I will post a pic of my final product when it is done but I posted a pic of my Mark 1 a little while back. If you do Facebook you can see a vid of it working which I will try to getup on youtube soon. Once I get it going I will be selling at a price comparable to others though probably not as cheep as Johno was selling them for. I'm figuring in the $200 to $250 range, we'll see.


----------



## alfred westlake

Biermann said:


> Okay Alfred, I will give my way of wiring with a picture of the switch I use.


Thanks for sharing that. It is a way of wiring that would not have thought of. So your return from the band heater just returns to ground, and your switch only turns off the band heater but leaves the controller on. It is an interesting way to do it. I think I like the set up I have where the switch interrupts the power to the controller and therefore the band heater as well. I can see the advantage to having a grounding check though. I may ponder it a bit but will probably keep my wiring set up the way it is now, except maybe to add a fuse.


----------



## johno

alfred westlake said:


> I have a couple more touches to Iron out and then I will try my hand at selling them.
> I will post a pic of my final product when it is done but I posted a pic of my Mark 1 a little while back. If you do Facebook you can see a vid of it working which I will try to getup on youtube soon. Once I get it going I will be selling at a price comparable to others though probably not as cheep as Johno was selling them for. I'm figuring in the $200 to $250 range, we'll see.


For those of you that have my vaporizers, if you have any problems I will still be here to repair them. I have repaired aout a 1/2 dozen so far, 2 with faulty controllers and others with kinked outlets. Retirement for me is not working 12 hours a day 7 days a week building 35 vaporizers a week so I will now take it easy make repairs when they come up and perhaps still make a few vaporizers from time to time.


----------



## Jbee6000

I’ve sold about 30 of these and have good reviews. Looks like we have several good makers so people will have good options


----------



## alfred westlake

Biermann said:


> Okay Alfred, I will give my way of wiring with a picture of the switch I use.


Thanks for sharing that. It is a way of wiring that would not have thought of. So your return from the band heater just returns to ground, and your switch only turns off the band heater but leaves the controller on. It is an interesting way to do it. I think I like the set up I have where the switch interrupts the power to the controller and therefore the band heater as well. I can see the advantage to having a grounding check though. I may ponder it a bit but will probably keep my wiring set up the way it is now, except maybe to add a fuse.

I suppose that one could wire the whole thing to return to ground rather than to white/neutral and that way have the same ground check that you do but through the whole system?? hmm not sure about that. Like I said I am not an electrician, so my plan is to keep it very standard and simple.


----------



## Biermann

alfred westlake said:


> Thanks for sharing that. It is a way of wiring that would not have thought of. So your return from the band heater just returns to ground, and your switch only turns off the band heater but leaves the controller on. It is an interesting way to do it. I think I like the set up I have where the switch interrupts the power to the controller and therefore the band heater as well. I can see the advantage to having a grounding check though. I may ponder it a bit but will probably keep my wiring set up the way it is now, except maybe to add a fuse.


*Distinctively NO!* I use black and white on the band heater, only the grounding connector from the switch for the LED goes to ground!


----------



## clyderoad

I have said it before and it deserves to be said again, johno should be
recognized for his creativity, hard work and selflessness and be named Beekeeper of the Year.
Further, all band heater vaporizers should be commonly referred to as a "johno" and royalties sent to him by everyone who manufactures and sells a band vaporizer based on his designs.
He deserves it.


----------



## alfred westlake

Biermann said:


> *Distinctively NO!* I use black and white on the band heater, only the grounding connector from the switch for the LED goes to ground!



That makes more sense to me. Thanks. I was really trying to puzzle it out. Ha ha ha. It didn't sound safe, but then I thought, well he knows better so... I get what your doing now.


----------



## alfred westlake

So I read somewhere that some folks were drilling out the Mocap Plugs to make room for enough OAC....
I am wondering what size Plug we are talking about? Because I have the 1.306/1.622 Size and the cavity seems plenty large enough for a good dose of OA.

Also curious if anyone has tried these:








Triangle Flask Silicone Stopper Conical Flask Silicone Plug Triangle Cork Tool | eBay


1 x Stopper. Neutral, breathable, non-toxic, high temperature resistance, corrosion resistance, soft and durable,And good electrical insulation. We will do our best to help you to resolve your problems.



www.ebay.com


----------



## Biermann

I use to, but switched to HUP7.5-04 #7.5 CAplugs and they have a large enough cavity.

The Forstner bit I use to use was 3/4" for the Mocap plugs.


----------



## username00101

Do those band heaters have a bottom already attached?

For the Temperature controller: is there a plug and play model we can buy with everything included, so I just have to plug in the band heater to the correct slots?


----------



## Biermann

sorry 00101, this is still the old world, manual operation. The Vap's are not windows compatible


----------



## alfred westlake

Biermann said:


> I use to, but switched to HUP7.5-04 #7.5 CAplugs and they have a large enough cavity.
> 
> The Forstner bit I use to use was 3/4" for the Mocap plugs.


You needed to drill out the Mocap 1.306/1.622 Size?
I am able to get 2 grams into it without drilling it out.
Maybe I am not using enough OA Crystals in my vape treatments....


You switched to the HUP7.5-04size at CaPlugs or was it the HUP8-04?
The HUP8-04 looks like the right size.


----------



## Jbee6000

alfred westlake said:


> So I read somewhere that some folks were drilling out the Mocap Plugs to make room for enough OAC....
> I am wondering what size Plug we are talking about? Because I have the 1.306/1.622 Size and the cavity seems plenty large enough for a good dose of OA.
> 
> Also curious if anyone has tried these:
> http://[URL][URL]https://www.ebay.com/itm/163206613728?var=462399181993[/URL][/URL]


I think that the mocaps did not fit a smaller vessel, as you know they fit 1 1/4” coupling. I buy the CAPlugs Hup8-04 and use 1 1/4” couplings- fits perfectly and they are shown in my early post.


----------



## alfred westlake

username00101 said:


> Do those band heaters have a bottom already attached?
> 
> For the Temperature controller: is there a plug and play model we can buy with everything included, so I just have to plug in the band heater to the correct slots?


Unfortunately the answer is no to both questions.
This is why this thread is so long and people are discussing so many aspects to creating these devices. 
The controller is actually not that hard to wire up. 
The challenging part, at least for me, was creating the bowl and nozzle.
Then the next challenging part is just getting all of the right sizes of various things and making everything come together correctly. I have several wrong size band heaters sitting around and several wrong size cook pot/bowls as well. Wrong size is maybe not the right way to think about it. Lets say they were all part of my learning mode experiments.

So it is not really a "plug and play" type of project.


----------



## 123456789

I think the 1.306/1.622 Size are big enough but I like to chamfer the edge







to make them easier to fill.


----------



## Jbee6000

alfred westlake said:


> Unfortunately the answer is no to both questions.
> This is why this thread is so long and people are discussing so many aspects to creating these devices.
> The controller is actually not that hard to wire up.
> The challenging part, at least for me, was creating the bowl and nozzle.
> Then the next challenging part is just getting all of the right sizes of various things and making everything come together correctly. I have several wrong size band heaters sitting around and several wrong size cook pot/bowls as well. Wrong size is maybe not the right way to think about it. Lets say they were all part of my learning mode experiments.
> 
> So it is not really a "plug and play" type of project.


It was definitely “humble beginnings“ for me to learn how to make cook pots. I had never brazed or welded before and most of my building experience is with wood. Below are 20+ of my unsuccessful attempts when I was still learning. To make things even more difficult I was experimenting with all kinds of different designs. The first ones I made make me laugh out loud at myself and hopefully can give a few of you a laugh as well  Finally I asked a friend for guidance on how to braze and presto - they are pretty easy once I learned the correct process.


----------



## Biermann

Try that for 500 or 1,000 plugs.

I did make a 2x4 with 6 holes for the plugs to nicely, but tightly fit in and drilled them quickly with the Forstner bit. 

We use 1 1/4" pipe K-type pipe, not couplers. We cut the whole 10' to length on our cold cut saw, clean the ends and weld the punched lids from K-type copper stock on the bottom.

The Mocap1.187/1.437 HOLLOW SILICONE PLUG, RED-OXIDE plug only holds 2 gram.

The HUP7.5-04 #7.5 fits nicely and it holds 3 gram, plus. I use 3gram.


----------



## Jbee6000

Biermann said:


> Try that for 500 or 1,000 plugs.
> 
> I did make a 2x4 with 6 holes for the plugs to nicely, but tightly fit in and drilled them quickly with the Forstner bit.
> 
> We use 1 1/4" pipe K-type pipe, not couplers. We cut the whole 10' to length on our cold cut saw, clean the ends and weld the punched lids from K-type copper stock on the bottom.
> 
> The Mocap1.187/1.437 HOLLOW SILICONE PLUG, RED-OXIDE plug only holds 2 gram.
> 
> The HUP7.5-04 #7.5 fits nicely and it holds 3 gram, plus. I use 3gram.


Using 10’ pipe certainly seems more cost effective Do you find the OA collects less on the inside of the Hup7.5-04 cap? Thanks.


----------



## JWPalmer

Jbee6000 said:


> View attachment 62063


"I swear to God officer, I don't even know what crack is!"


----------



## username00101

@Jbee6000 Interesting.

So are beekeepers making separate bowls that get neatly tucked down into the band heater?

Or are they just welding some copper directly to the bottom of the band heater?


----------



## Jbee6000

username00101 said:


> @Jbee6000 Interesting.
> 
> So are beekeepers making separate bowls that get neatly tucked down into the band heater?
> 
> Or are they just welding some copper directly to the bottom of the band heater?


Hi 00101, I believe everyone that makes vaporizers that use band heaters as the heating element are making copper vessels that are heated by the band heater. Band heaters are typically used in the plastic injection molding industry from my understanding and they are used to heat the nozzles. I’ve never seen anyone try to make a vessel out of the band heater itself.


----------



## alfred westlake

username00101 said:


> @Jbee6000 Interesting.
> 
> So are beekeepers making separate bowls that get neatly tucked down into the band heater?
> 
> Or are they just welding some copper directly to the bottom of the band heater?


The band heaters don't have a bottom. They are a "band" that is clamped around the cook bowl with a sort of hose clamp.

It might be best if you were to read through the thread. Then you would have a better basis for your questions.


----------



## alfred westlake

Jbee6000 said:


> It was definitely “humble beginnings“ for me to learn how to make cook pots. I had never brazed or welded before and most of my building experience is with wood. Below are 20+ of my unsuccessful attempts when I was still learning. To make things even more difficult I was experimenting with all kinds of different designs. The first ones I made make me laugh out loud at myself and hopefully can give a few of you a laugh as well  Finally I asked a friend for guidance on how to braze and presto - they are pretty easy once I learned the correct process.
> 
> View attachment 62063


 That's Great! 
You Should mount them like that and make a display out of them!


----------



## bluetyr

Wow! This thread is the reason I found this forum and signed up (via google and Reddit). I'm a tinkerer and looking to make an OAVap. Looks like all the information can be had with some careful reading here but before I do that is there a tutorial/parts list already somewhere I should know about?


----------



## JWPalmer

Johno has indicated that he is going to be putting together a tutorial and current parts list. It has been an evolving process for all the folks that are making them.


----------



## beebuzzjb

How much oxalic acid is everyone planning to use for their plugs? Just asking because I watched a recent video where some commercial beekeepers were agreeing that a double dose works better than the single dose. 



 ( long video but start at about 32:30 - 36:00 )

So that's* 4 grams*.

I'm new to the thread. I was hoping to build my own, but this thread has convinced me that it would take ME 50+ hours of tinkering and I would probably end up with junk. When you think of it that way, the $500 doesn't sound too bad. OK, it's always bad to get gouged. But I'm a youtube plumber and electrician only. I'm pretty much lost without actually seeing someone do it. ... not even going to mention my lack of welding skills.

You guys have done an amazing job, but I don't want to feel your pain.

I'll probably buy one this summer, when it's time to make splits ... but crossing my fingers that a precise parts list (with links and instructions and a video not requiring a 3D printer) magically appears before then. I can dream can't I?


----------



## Biermann

I use 3 gram on a double deep. 2 gram on a single and it has worked good for me. Important is how your applicator works, 'puffs' the stuff intro the hive, inside/outside temperature etc. I don't like to go below 10°C (50°F).


----------



## Hankinohio18

JWPalmer said:


> Johno has indicated that he is going to be putting together a tutorial and current parts list. It has been an evolving process for all the folks that are making them.


Patiently and excitedly waiting


----------



## Biermann

Next Post, please. The DIY for a vaporizer is on post 1155 (at this point)


----------



## Biermann

Okay, here my DIY help:

DIY AC Oxalic Acid Vaporizer

Varroa Decimator

Joerg Klempnauer, 20-2-2020​


Many options are thinkable and not one design is binding. The result makes the design good or bad.

*Notice to reader:* You are going to work with electricity, so ground well and work carfully! Stay safe!

The plan is to vaporize the OA, so the temperature needs to be around 380-420°F (194-215°C). Consider a bowl material with good heat conductivity and good strength. My preference is 1 ¼” copper K-type heating pipe, sold in 10’ length. 3/16” copper tube for the vaporizing tube, this (as much as I have found) only comes in coiled form and is initially very soft, but hardens during the first 20 uses.

Let’s try to get a list together for main components needed to build 120 VAC Oxalic Acid Vaporizer. I will start at the extension cable.

Connecting cable, 10 Amp, 10 to 15’ long, bendable at colder temperatures. Grounded = three prong, 18 AWG
Optional: switch with LED light that comes on when power is applied to the heating coil (Gardner Bender GSW-42)
PID (Proportional, Integral, and Derivative) controller (MYPIN TA4-RNR or INKBIRD ITC-106RH)
Heat Element (PPE MX13705 – 120VAC 300 Watt) this fits around the 1 ¼” copper pipe
Someone to weld a cap from copper to one side of a piece of pipe cut 2 ¾”
The 3/16” vaporizing pipe can be made in many ways, straight out the bottom, bottom side, or anywhere up to 1” from the top
Someone to weld the 3/16” copper to the bowl
One or two holes in the bottom to mount the bowl to a frame
K-type temperature probe with ¼” ring end
Aluminum flat bar, ¼” by 1.5”, 8-10” long(?)
Box to house the controls – remember you will be heating the bowl and heat will eventually travel along the alu bar to your controls and hands holding this thing!
1 or 2 stainless ¼” bolts and acorn nuts to mount the bowl to the alu bar - hint: put the nuts from the inside!
2 or 4 small washers to raise the bowl off the bar to reduce heat travel
Silicon type plug with cavity for the OA charge of 2-4 gram (check CAPlugs.com – I use SH-33533 HUP7.5-04 #7.5 ULTRABAKE

Below a wiring diagram for the MYPIN.


----------



## JWChesnut

Band heater vaporizers have attracted a lot of recent attention on the Beekeeping Facebook group I administer. One merchant has been especially energetic in promoting his branded device. In the interest of fairness, I would like to collect names and details of the other start-ups offering their devices. PM with details and links so I can aggregate all the options.


----------



## bluetyr

Biermann said:


> Okay, here my DIY help:
> 
> Joerg Klempnauer, 20-2-2020​
> 
> PID (Proportional, Integral, and Derivative) controller (MYPIN TA4-RNR or INKBIRD ITC-106RH)
> The 3/16” vaporizing pipe can be made in many ways, straight out the bottom, bottom side, or anywhere up to 1” from the top


Thanks! Great info Joerg - I've a question on the 3/16 pipe. Is that the O.D. or the I.D.? I have 1/8" and 1/4" copper thick wall pipe readily available......... 

On that note: Is there any particular reason so many people put the bend in it adding length when most I've read say to keep the length to 2" or less for cooling and crystal build up? I've also see that people add a 5/8" bend on the inside, or say to make sure 1/4" passes into the chamber. What's the function of that? Does straight out the side work just fine?

I'll add a little on what I've found. The Auber mechanical relay PID SYL-2342 which has an internal relay that is good for 10A which I liked. I had also ordered a 380W band heater which is a little over three amps which would need an SSR with the others. 

If you've got a tig but don't feel like welding copper with helium, or trying to tig copper with argon (my set up) I'm going to use silicone bronze to TIG braze. I'll update if it was a bad idea. 

I had pooled a bunch of different net resources and ordered most everything already............. I'll be sure to note any significant errors or successes.


----------



## Grunt's Bee Farm

Hello all! 

I've been following this thread very eagerly! I'm just about ready to build my own and was wondering why these are made with primarily copper chambers? Could 416SS or 316SS be a good alternative--or is it just a price point that drives the use of copper?


----------



## Biermann

Grunt's Bee Farm said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I've been following this thread very eagerly! I'm just about ready to build my own and was wondering why these are made with primarily copper chambers? Could 416SS or 316SS be a good alternative--or is it just a price point that drives the use of copper?


Hello grunt's, I have other answers to be send, but this is an important question and it has only to do with heat transfer. The K-type sensor is usually under the bowl, between the bowl bottom and unit frame, so any delay in energy traveling between the heat element and the K-type sensor can make setting the PID a nightmare. Believe me, I have tried, but always came back to copper.

More soon.

JoergK.


----------



## Grunt's Bee Farm

Biermann said:


> Hello grunt's, I have other answers to be send, but this is an important question and it has only to do with heat transfer. The K-type sensor is usually under the bowl, between the bowl bottom and unit frame, so any delay in energy traveling between the heat element and the K-type sensor can make setting the PID a nightmare. Believe me, I have tried, but always came back to copper.
> 
> More soon.
> 
> JoergK.


Thanks for the info! I have a large supply of stainless that I thought I would use and machine down to what I need. I'll keep my eyes open for copper!


----------



## bluetyr

I am planning to split the difference......

The K sensor I picked up is the threaded kind so I'll machine out of brass or copper (SS should be fine?) with the bottom thickness matching just more than the threaded sensor so that the tip of the sensor sits as close to the sublimation surface as possible. Not everyone has access to machining so Biermann's way is much more user friendly.


----------



## Biermann

BTW, just talked to my welder and the answer: 'copper is so easy to work with'. We TIG (not MIG!!!) the copper.

bluetyr, that is okay for one unit, but build 100 and more and you will agree the loop connector type is the better and quicker solution.

My motto: keep it simple.

JoergK.


----------



## beebuzzjb

In addition to the parts list, it would be good to have a list of sellers, links to their web sites, or instructions how to order, prices, etc.... I'm thinking I would like to have one in my gubby little hands by June. I would like to see pictures with descriptions. Though it will be difficult to know who has the best product. Maybe Consumer Reports will buy some and give some ratings


----------



## Biermann

Everyone has the best product, so it goes, but maybe some of us builders don't want to end-up like Johno, with the 'Genie in the Bottle' taking control.

One thing I learned, one has to be able to say 'no', sometimes and that is a hard judgement. 

JoergK.


----------



## bluetyr

Biermann said:


> Everyone has the best product, so it goes, but maybe some of us builders don't want to end-up like Johno, with the 'Genie in the Bottle' taking control.
> 
> One thing I learned, one has to be able to say 'no', sometimes and that is a hard judgement.
> 
> JoergK.


Biermann speaks truth. 
There's a bunch of differences that need to be accounted for when discussing making things for market versus DIY a one or couple off. There are some things where it's a price per part that needs to be justified or a ease of production time / labor to factor. I can say for sure that there's no way much of the DIY I go about would suit even hobby level help a brother out production. Not to mention I'm **** slow at some things............. doesn't mean I can't do them just I shouldn't be charging someone my time on them.

I'll have to look into MIG copper. It would likely involve buying a special spool and possibly a different gas shield. I'm looking at the TIG braze mostly because I have TIG and all I have to buy is some relatively cheap filler rod.


----------



## Biermann

The devil is in the detail. I mistakenly wrote MIG, but I am talking about TIG, no special filler rod needed, just strip a piece of copper wire. My welder has a little rotating table he build with the foot switch, goes like making rabbits.

My apology, JoergK.


----------



## bluetyr

No worries, I'm not that good at TIG yet and YouTube university (and Mller welding) suggest that one should shield copper with helium gas which I don't have. I'll give it a go with just argon but brazing sounds easiest. A bit off topic but have to guess that a bunch of people with bee for interest also have other diverse knowledge bases.


Biermann said:


> The devil is in the detail. I mistakenly wrote MIG, but I am talking about TIG,
> 
> My apology, JoergK.


----------



## crofter

bluetyr said:


> No worries, I'm not that good at TIG yet and YouTube university (and Mller welding) suggest that one should shield copper with helium gas which I don't have. I'll give it a go with just argon but brazing sounds easiest. A bit off topic but have to guess that a bunch of people with bee for interest also have other diverse knowledge bases.


Give it a try with argon. I have done a few little projects on copper without even being aware of what or why helium would be preferred.


----------



## alfred westlake

I just did these today with Pro-map gas.


----------



## Ruggggus

Grunt's Bee Farm said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I've been following this thread very eagerly! I'm just about ready to build my own and was wondering why these are made with primarily copper chambers? Could 416SS or 316SS be a good alternative--or is it just a price point that drives the use of copper?


Greetings,
It is my understanding that copper is used because of its ability to transfer heat most affectively.


----------



## alfred westlake

Grunt's Bee Farm said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I've been following this thread very eagerly! I'm just about ready to build my own and was wondering why these are made with primarily copper chambers? Could 416SS or 316SS be a good alternative--or is it just a price point that drives the use of copper?


 For me it is because I am following the guidance of others. Also because of the availability of the pieces needed to fabricate the bowl, Then the big one is that with copper I can do it with a MapPro torch and my minimal skills.


----------



## crofter

Lack of heat conductivity is the issue; Surprisingly it is only about 10% of what copper is. The band that heats the unit applies the heat to the sides of the vessel but much of the effective surface area in contact with the charge is the bottom area so it depends on conductivity of the metal to take the heat down and across the bottom. Also the temperature sensing thermocouple is located on the bottom (most commonly)

Stainless probably would work but would result in much longer boil off times. It would also cause the heating band to operate at a higher temperature too.


----------



## johno

crofter said:


> Lack of heat conductivity is the issue; Surprisingly it is only about 10% of what copper is. The band that heats the unit applies the heat to the sides of the vessel but much of the effective surface area in contact with the charge is the bottom area so it depends on conductivity of the metal to take the heat down and across the bottom. Also the temperature sensing thermocouple is located on the bottom (most commonly)
> 
> Stainless probably would work but would result in much longer boil off times. It would also cause the heating band to operate at a higher temperature too.


You could probably get away with cast iron if you are prepared to heat the nozzle with a propane torch every time you treat with it, but if you are selling to a customer and the nozzle keeps plugging up you are going to have them returned to you and that is the reason they are built from copper.


----------



## crofter

I agree with johno on the conductivity affecting plugging (or not) of the discharge tube. Copper, copper, copper!


----------



## Ruggggus

Ruggggus said:


> Greetings,
> It is my understanding that copper is used because of its ability to transfer heat most affectively.



Sorry guys, I forgot this forum has all replies go to the bottom of the list and I should have read all the other listings before responding above.

Some other observations I've made while producing my own units is that the PID functions of the controller should not be used, the short time involved to sublimate the OA, the decreasing amount of mass of the OA and the variable in the time spent between uses make it of no value. The controller should be set to ON/OFF. Different controllers have different settings available but the Inkbird 106RH is what I'm using and what I'll share about. Since I am using the internal mechanical relay I want to keep its operation to a minimum while maintaining the temperature desired. This can be done 2 ways and I set both, the "control period" set to "4" seconds (instructions recommend 18 but I have the cup reloaded and moved to the next hive sooner than 18 seconds), and Hysteresis "DF" set to "2" degrees (this will give you a 4 degree swing in temperature which also keeps the relay from multiple on/off clicks as the temperature does not change that quickly.
I have my units set to 380 degrees and though I am in full agreement that it doesn't matter if the temperature is set higher because the OA will react the same way no matter what I think it will prolong the life of the plug you fill with OA if you maintain the lowest temperature that will do the job. those plugs are rated for 600 degrees but they do show ware from use.
While I'm talking about temperature I'd like to say that in my opinion the optimum place to be drilling you 7/32" hole is 1/4" down from the top of your bottom board drilled in the back or sides. This is because the occupants of the hive are not going to be located here and you are dumping a 375 degree gas into the hive. I also crack the top so that there is air movement within the hive, the heat will rise bringing the OAV with it. When I can see the OAV escaping the top I seal it back up but make sure after a couple minutes you provide the bees a way to dissipate the heat you just dumped into their home. I have also seen how far away from my bare skin I can hold the OAV and you can get 3" away but that is out in the open air and the heat is dissipating more quickly than it can in the hive (not saying it is harming the bees, just saying that putting the heat as far from the brood and bees is a good idea.


----------



## johno

Ruggggus said:


> Sorry guys, I forgot this forum has all replies go to the bottom of the list and I should have read all the other listings before responding above.
> 
> Some other observations I've made while producing my own units is that the PID functions of the controller should not be used, the short time involved to sublimate the OA, the decreasing amount of mass of the OA and the variable in the time spent between uses make it of no value. The controller should be set to ON/OFF. Different controllers have different settings available but the Inkbird 106RH is what I'm using and what I'll share about. Since I am using the internal mechanical relay I want to keep its operation to a minimum while maintaining the temperature desired. This can be done 2 ways and I set both, the "control period" set to "4" seconds (instructions recommend 18 but I have the cup reloaded and moved to the next hive sooner than 18 seconds), and Hysteresis "DF" set to "2" degrees (this will give you a 4 degree swing in temperature which also keeps the relay from multiple on/off clicks as the temperature does not change that quickly.
> I have my units set to 380 degrees and though I am in full agreement that it doesn't matter if the temperature is set higher because the OA will react the same way no matter what I think it will prolong the life of the plug you fill with OA if you maintain the lowest temperature that will do the job. those plugs are rated for 600 degrees but they do show ware from use.
> While I'm talking about temperature I'd like to say that in my opinion the optimum place to be drilling you 7/32" hole is 1/4" down from the top of your bottom board drilled in the back or sides. This is because the occupants of the hive are not going to be located here and you are dumping a 375 degree gas into the hive. I also crack the top so that there is air movement within the hive, the heat will rise bringing the OAV with it. When I can see the OAV escaping the top I seal it back up but make sure after a couple minutes you provide the bees a way to dissipate the heat you just dumped into their home. I have also seen how far away from my bare skin I can hold the OAV and you can get 3" away but that is out in the open air and the heat is dissipating more quickly than it can in the hive (not saying it is harming the bees, just saying that putting the heat as far from the brood and bees is a good idea.


 Just a word of warning to all the new suppliers, Keep an eye on the point of diminishing returns. Trying to keep up with the incoming orders I ended up working near 80 hours a week in 2020 which worked out in earnings to around $28 per hour. Now as I am retired and get a income from Social security this income is added to the total income and after the Feds and State revenue collecters took their share the income ended up at $18 per hour. So for me I cannot work for more than 30 hours a week without being punished by the tax man. I would also add that not much heat goes into the hive using a band heater vaporizer as there is no gas exiting the nozzle only OA crystals, as far as the temp of those crystals I have a pic out there of me sublimating onto my bare arm with the nozzle about 3" from my arm.


----------



## Ruggggus

So here is the OAV unit that I am producing. I have made every attempt to follow in John's footsteps in keeping the price as low as I can. None of the parts are made on a 3d printer and I will share a parts list for those who want to make their own but honestly you can see all the parts . My thoughts other than cost were to keep it as light as possible to limit damage to the nozzle caused by gravity since we are all going to let it hang there while we prepare for the next hive. The nozzle attaches to the bowl 1/2" from the top just above the center of the top of the band heater. I thought of making an option of the nozzle out the bottom to allow placement through the front on the landing board but in doing so you lose having the gap between the bowl and the support bar sacrificing heat dissipation and you'd also have to insert the OA after placing the unit because there would still be no way to rotate it, or rotate it and then place the unit (either way I decided to only offer the unit with one nozzle location option. It is wrapped with Gropho-glass to help maintain heat in windy conditions and more importantly help prevent burns. I originally wrapped that with 500 degree tape but didn't like the looks so went with tucking the end of the rope in and using some super glue to make sure it stayed together (not sure it was necessary). I started with a 1/4"x1" aluminum strip to support the bowl but switched to 1/8" thick because it doesn't have the heat retention that the 1/4" has. the bowl is connected with a 1/4" machine screw that has about 1/2" of thread exposed to the air to help dissipate the heat. a 3/4" piece of hard wood keeps any heat from making it to the plastic box, again not sure it is necessary as not much heat gets that far, but it's cheap insurance. The handle is simply 1/2" electrical plastic conduit that is attached to the plastic box with a male connector that is threaded and glued into the box. the other end of the 6" handle has a cable gland that seals the 3' 16 gauge cord and keeps it from spinning within the unit when you rotate it to dump the OA. I placed the handle straight out the back of the unit to allow for those who keep their hives on a single pallet. There is no on/off switch because the cord is less than 3' long so disconnecting power is pretty easy.
The cover is a metal exterior blank cover that I punched a 45mm square out of to accommodate the controller. The unit will come with 2 of the blue cups to load the OA with and more can be purchased if you feel you need them. I am starting the price at $150 each plus $30 for packaging and shipping within the continental USA. 
For those who want to build their own but lack the confidence to make some of the necessary parts I can produce just the bowl unit for you or any of the other parts I'm purchasing. I will also answer any of your questions that I can, Just PM me.
As many of you know getting the controller is the most costly part of this equation and since I am just starting out have only purchased enough for 25 units which took a month to arrive. As far as I know there is only one USA company making these controllers and maybe I'll switch to them depending on the depth of their unit which is the issue (assuming all quality controllers are of the same quality )
That's enough jabbering. Thanks for reading this far. JohnO thank you for the education and showing me that it is affordable to take proper care of my bees. My bees thank you!


----------



## crofter

Well thought out.
Check your private conversations box.


----------



## alfred westlake

Today I finished those cook pots. I trimmed down the nozzles and spruced them up. 
Now they are Pretty!


----------



## alfred westlake

Right now the biggest challenge I am having is cutting the holes in the project box. I am using a hard plastic project box, the Hammond 1591 box. It takes me FOREVER to cut the openings for the PID and the switch I am using. On top of that unless I am VERY careful I end up cracking part of the box. I am basically measuring it out and marking with a marker then drilling four corner holes and then cutting with my multitool. Then I spend a ton of time with a file to bring it out to the right size. This is taking FOREVER. I think the fastest I have done one is a half an hour.

Any hints would be appreciated...


----------



## Biermann

I guess I will be raising my price up to USD200.00 with two plugs, CAD250.00 for Canada, $25.00 for shipping.


----------



## 123456789

alfred westlake said:


> Right now the biggest challenge I am having is cutting the holes in the project box. I am using a hard plastic project box, the Hammond 1591 box. It takes me FOREVER to cut the openings for the PID and the switch I am using. On top of that unless I am VERY careful I end up cracking part of the box. I am basically measuring it out and marking with a marker then drilling four corner holes and then cutting with my multitool. Then I spend a ton of time with a file to bring it out to the right size. This is taking FOREVER. I think the fastest I have done one is a half an hour.
> 
> Any hints would be appreciated...


I use my cnc mill but I'm sure that doesn't help much. 3d printer is the way to go, they are cheap and they work while you sleep.


----------



## RAST

Ruggggus said:


> View attachment 62281
> 
> 
> So here is the OAV unit that I am producing. I have made every attempt to follow in John's footsteps in keeping the price as low as I can. None of the parts are made on a 3d printer and I will share a parts list for those who want to make their own but honestly you can see all the parts . My thoughts other than cost were to keep it as light as possible to limit damage to the nozzle caused by gravity since we are all going to let it hang there while we prepare for the next hive. The nozzle attaches to the bowl 1/2" from the top just above the center of the top of the band heater. I thought of making an option of the nozzle out the bottom to allow placement through the front on the landing board but in doing so you lose having the gap between the bowl and the support bar sacrificing heat dissipation and you'd also have to insert the OA after placing the unit because there would still be no way to rotate it, or rotate it and then place the unit (either way I decided to only offer the unit with one nozzle location option. It is wrapped with Gropho-glass to help maintain heat in windy conditions and more importantly help prevent burns. I originally wrapped that with 500 degree tape but didn't like the looks so went with tucking the end of the rope in and using some super glue to make sure it stayed together (not sure it was necessary). I started with a 1/4"x1" aluminum strip to support the bowl but switched to 1/8" thick because it doesn't have the heat retention that the 1/4" has. the bowl is connected with a 1/4" machine screw that has about 1/2" of thread exposed to the air to help dissipate the heat. a 3/4" piece of hard wood keeps any heat from making it to the plastic box, again not sure it is necessary as not much heat gets that far, but it's cheap insurance. The handle is simply 1/2" electrical plastic conduit that is attached to the plastic box with a male connector that is threaded and glued into the box. the other end of the 6" handle has a cable gland that seals the 3' 16 gauge cord and keeps it from spinning within the unit when you rotate it to dump the OA. I placed the handle straight out the back of the unit to allow for those who keep their hives on a single pallet. There is no on/off switch because the cord is less than 3' long so disconnecting power is pretty easy.
> The cover is a metal exterior blank cover that I punched a 45mm square out of to accommodate the controller. The unit will come with 2 of the blue cups to load the OA with and more can be purchased if you feel you need them. I am starting the price at $150 each plus $30 for packaging and shipping within the continental USA.
> For those who want to build their own but lack the confidence to make some of the necessary parts I can produce just the bowl unit for you or any of the other parts I'm purchasing. I will also answer any of your questions that I can, Just PM me.
> As many of you know getting the controller is the most costly part of this equation and since I am just starting out have only purchased enough for 25 units which took a month to arrive. As far as I know there is only one USA company making these controllers and maybe I'll switch to them depending on the depth of their unit which is the issue (assuming all quality controllers are of the same quality )
> That's enough jabbering. Thanks for reading this far. JohnO thank you for the education and showing me that it is affordable to take proper care of my bees. My bees thank you!
> View attachment 62282


Tripping over the cord will damage the nozzle/bowl with all that leverage.


----------



## Ruggggus

RAST said:


> Tripping over the cord will damage the nozzle/bowl with all that leverage.


As it would with any design. But thanks for the input. Always looking for ways to improve.


----------



## RAST

Ruggggus said:


> As it would with any design. But thanks for the input. Always looking for ways to improve.


Only mentioned it to give you the benefit of my experiance when I tried coming out the handle on the back.


----------



## Ruggggus

Thank you, appreciate that. What happens with the handle on the bottom? I would think it rotates 45° and then the same damage happens. I just know that it was difficult on the couple of hives I had on single pallets to treat when the handle came out the bottom. Easy enough for me to change that though, maybe I will make that an option. Thank you, I think I will.


----------



## crofter

When it is doing its business it will be upside down. For someone with hives on pallets the reduced height (when inverted) may be a benefit. The handle is on the same center as the discharge for easy rotation.

I think the handle could be a bit shorter though; an easy fix.

Edit; I see Ruuuugus posted while I was typing. Bringing the cord out right at the bottom would be easy and it would lie flat to the ground when at rest. Still it would be up more in the air while inverted. Usually being held though at that point.
All to easy to take a stumble; I managed to trip backwards with a deep brood box on my lap. Glad I dont have aggressive bees!


----------



## RAST

crofter said:


> When it is doing its business it will be upside down. For someone with hives on pallets the reduced height (when inverted) may be a benefit. The handle is on the same center as the discharge for easy rotation.
> 
> I think the handle could be a bit shorter though; an easy fix.
> 
> Edit; I see Ruuuugus posted while I was typing. Bringing the cord out right at the bottom would be easy and it would lie flat to the ground when at rest. Still it would be up more in the air while inverted. Usually being held though at that point.
> All to easy to take a stumble; I managed to trip backwards with a deep brood box on my lap. Glad I dont have aggressive bees!


My handle comes out the back, angle is adjustable to please both factions. The cord comes out the rear right back lower corner. Coming out the bottom causes too much cord rotation. Remember, my trial and error(s) wound up with it pleasing me and my customers thus far. Picture of them are on here in the Where’s Johno? string


----------



## johno

RAST said:


> My handle comes out the back, angle is adjustable to please both factions. The cord comes out the rear right back lower corner. Coming out the bottom causes too much cord rotation. Remember, my trial and error(s) wound up with it pleasing me and my customers thus far. Picture of them are on here in the Where’s Johno? string


This is a pic I took in 2016-2017 while doing tests during the development of these vaporizers, and as you can see this quickly debunks the theory that hot vapors exit the nozzle and also the theory of overheating the OA to breakdown point.


----------



## Ruggggus

crofter said:


> I think the handle could be a bit shorter though; an easy fix.


Agreed, I cut it down by almost half and that makes it about right. Conduit length is 3" and after adding the connectors and cord gland it ends up being about 5-1/2". Could probably shorten it a little more but some of us have large paws.


----------



## crofter

johno said:


> This is a pic I took in 2016-2017 while doing tests during the development of these vaporizers, and as you can see this quickly debunks the theory that hot vapors exit the nozzle and also the theory of overheating the OA to breakdown point.
> View attachment 62305


That is what I call "having the courage of your convictions"!


----------



## crofter

Most of the people playing with the temperature controllers on these band heaters will have the frustration of dealing with vague instructions; often in Chinglish Here is a link to instructions from the 3D printers forum but the principles apply to what we are attempting. The overshoot factor is something I played at taming.

Storing some heat for vaporizing the next charge is a plus but it also exposes the silicone charging caps to erosion from the heat. There is such a huge change in heat demand during the 20 or 30 second boiloff compared to what is necessary to maintain the empty set point temperature, that I am probably _on a fools errand_. Anyways, below is the link for what it is worth.









3D Printer PID Tuning: Simply Explained


Looking to auto-tune the PID settings on your printer to improve print quality? Learn how 3D printer PID tuning works!




all3dp.com


----------



## alfred westlake

Spadeapiaries said:


> I use my cnc mill but I'm sure that doesn't help much. 3d printer is the way to go, they are cheap and they work while you sleep.


But that seems awfully slow and I would assume expensive. 
How much time does it take for the printer to spit one out?
What is the cost per box?


----------



## Biermann

I have done some test and was not impressed with: Cost, strength, temperature resistance and the time it takes to print one grip, anywhere from 12-24 hrs, depending how elaborate one goes. Print through the night and the base is not connected properlz and zou come to a pile of rabish in the morning. Any plastic will give up on 200°C (400°F) over time.

Importantly: one should always rememebr that we are talking about a hobby Beek unit, but I see some commercials use them too. Tottaly different can-of-worms.


----------



## Jbee6000

Biermann said:


> I have done some test and was not impressed with: Cost, strength, temperature resistance and the time it takes to print one grip, anywhere from 12-24 hrs, depending how elaborate one goes. Print through the night and the base is not connected properlz and zou come to a pile of rabish in the morning. Any plastic will give up on 200°C (400°F) over time.
> 
> Importantly: one should always rememebr that we are talking about a hobby Beek unit, but I see some commercials use them too. Tottaly different can-of-worms.


----------



## Jbee6000

Greetings everyone,

I’ll share my experience with the 3d cases I’ve printed (roughly 40 of them for context). It cost me about $6 in PETG to print a 3 piece unit and 8 hours max (19 total) (handle, base, cap). I use 3 printers. I have not calculated cost of power and printer depreciation. I also dont have print failures but I’ve got a lot of time printing with PETG and the printer brand I use has been outstanding. As an FYI I had many failures when I first started 3d printing and did not have the experience or printers I have now. The nice thing about my cases is that it saves me hours of time drilling holes etc. for the build. 

I’ve been able to keep the temperature away from the case by using nylon washers. The only metal parts that touch the PETG only heat to ~100f. Good PETG is only rated at 175-180f so protecting the case from the heat transfer is a must. Strength has not been an issue so far either. Johno‘s design uses wood to protect the ABS case and he limited the amount of print time by using an ABS electrical box - very smart  

Having said all of this, I believe my expenses are probably higher than the average design and I’m sure there are other designs that are stronger and can withstand high temps i.e. Biermann’s


----------



## Ruggggus

alfred westlake said:


> Right now the biggest challenge I am having is cutting the holes in the project box. I am using a hard plastic project box, the Hammond 1591 box. It takes me FOREVER to cut the openings for the PID and the switch I am using. On top of that unless I am VERY careful I end up cracking part of the box. I am basically measuring it out and marking with a marker then drilling four corner holes and then cutting with my multitool. Then I spend a ton of time with a file to bring it out to the right size. This is taking FOREVER. I think the fastest I have done one is a half an hour.
> 
> Any hints would be appreciated...


Not knowing where the cutout sits on the box and assuming you want to make a bunch of these....would it be quicker in the long run to make a jig that you could set over and hold the box that would accommodate a trim router or Dremel with a cut out bit to zip out the opening fairly quickly then use a course file to square the corners?


----------



## alfred westlake

Ruggggus said:


> trim router or Dremel


So one issue I am having is that anything that cuts seems to also melt the plastic. I am currently using a jig saw. The blade gets hot almost immediately and I end up with melted plastic. The multi tool I used did the same but not quite as much, the problem with it was controlling it with all the vibration. Would a Dremel be different in terms of heat generation? I have certainly thought about getting one to try. I have a router, is a "trim Router different? It seems like a router would generate a LOT of heat. I also tried using a hot knife. Basically I put a blade on a soldering Iron. This worked, sort of, but left large margins of melted plastic.

Definitely some sort of jig or guide would be good, once I settle on the mechanism of cutting.


----------



## Ruggggus

A trim router is a smaller sized router but if you don't have one I'd buy a dremel and a zip bit and give it a try. I'll try it for you if you like. How thick is the plastic? Is there something I can purchase at Lowes that would be of equal material and I'll try it for you. I have a dremel and zip bits. I assume an electrical box is thinner and softer.


----------



## Ruggggus

I used a piece of 2" schedule 40 PVC drain pipe to try using a Rotozip till with a zip bit and that did a nice quick job freehand. No need to pre drill. You will want a jig though unless you are very steady with your hands. The PVC is probably a little harder than what you are working with therefore less likely to melt. The Rotozip tool is just a glorified Dremel, more expensive but sturdier. Maybe you can rent one to try, they are a common drywall tool.


----------



## crofter

Just to get a feel for how the zip bits cut, buy a few and chuck them in your power drill. It will not be as effective as they would in the much higher rpm roto zip but it would only be a few bucks invested.


----------



## johno

crofter said:


> Just to get a feel for how the zip bits cut, buy a few and chuck them in your power drill. It will not be as effective as they would in the much higher rpm roto zip but it would only be a few bucks invested.


The much slower rpm's will not heat up the bit and melt the plastic so you might be better off, even if you get a Dremel you should work it at low speed for plastics, you could even dip the bit in water from time to time to cool and even lubricate.


----------



## johno

johno said:


> The much slower rpm's will not heat up the bit and melt the plastic so you might be better off, even if you get a Dremel you should work it at low speed for plastics, you could even dip the bit in water from time to time to cool and even lubricate.


Then again for a few bucks you could purchase a Creality ender 3 D printer and open up a whole new world.


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## alfred westlake

johno said:


> Then again for a few bucks you could purchase a Creality ender 3 D printer and open up a whole new world.


It is something that I have thought about. Seems like a learning curve.
I wouldn't even know how to evaluate what to buy, let alone how to use it.


----------



## bluetyr

alfred westlake said:


> It is something that I have thought about. Seems like a learning curve.
> I wouldn't even know how to evaluate what to buy, let alone how to use it.


But it's not like that's going to stop me............ granted I'm pestering the people I already know for now. All while reading about the Ender 5 pro.......


----------



## Grunt's Bee Farm

Hey all! Can anyone provide pictures a to how the threaded/nonthreaded thermocouple is mounted? It's the only thing I don't quite get yet.


----------



## alfred westlake

So I learned a new thing today.
The thermocouples I have purchased have really long wires. I have been cutting them down and assuming that the left over wire is waste. Today for grins I did an experiment with some of the left over wire. I bared one end of the wires and twisted them together and tucked them in between the bowl and band heater of a vaporizer I was assembling. Then the other end I screwed into the MYPIN. It worked just as well as the piece I had cut off to use!
So this means I can get at least three if not four thermocouples out of each one!


----------



## crofter

alfred westlake said:


> So I learned a new thing today.
> The thermocouples I have purchased have really long wires. I have been cutting them down and assuming that the left over wire is waste. Today for grins I did an experiment with some of the left over wire. I bared one end of the wires and twisted them together and tucked them in between the bowl and band heater of a vaporizer I was assembling. Then the other end I screwed into the MYPIN. It worked just as well as the piece I had cut off to use!
> So this means I can get at least three if not four thermocouples out of each one!


You may find that over time corrosion/oxidation on the wire surfaces will break the circuit. The voltage and current produced is very small so it is easily messed with. You can make the connection permanent by fusing the very end of the twisted joint. I did a few a short time ago as describe in the link below. I used an old battery charger but the link shows other sources. 



https://xdevs.com/article/k-probe/


----------



## alfred westlake

crofter said:


> You may find that over time corrosion/oxidation on the wire surfaces will break the circuit. The voltage and current produced is very small so it is easily messed with. You can make the connection permanent by fusing the very end of the twisted joint. I did a few a short time ago as describe in the link below. I used an old battery charger but the link shows other sources.
> 
> 
> 
> https://xdevs.com/article/k-probe/


Well that being the case I will probably just continue cutting them down and tossing the extra since I don't have the equipment to weld them together. I certainly don't want them to fail on people after a while. Thankfully they are cheap.


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## alfred westlake

Just waiting on some caps to arrive and my first batch will be ready to go!

Well actually I am also going to get some stickers printed to put on them. 
I want to do a warning sticker and a logo with my product name.

And what you ask is my product name? I haven't figured it out yet. Every name I come up with seems to be already in use by someone..


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## JWPalmer

WestvapeEZ?


----------



## 123456789

alfred westlake said:


> Right now the biggest challenge I am having is cutting the holes in the project box. I am using a hard plastic project box, the Hammond 1591 box. It takes me FOREVER to cut the openings for the PID and the switch I am using. On top of that unless I am VERY careful I end up cracking part of the box. I am basically measuring it out and marking with a marker then drilling four corner holes and then cutting with my multitool. Then I spend a ton of time with a file to bring it out to the right size. This is taking FOREVER. I think the fastest I have done one is a half an hour.
> 
> Any hints would be appreciated...


What size is that 1591 box?


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## crofter

Alfred, how about the Westlake *MITE MACER * for a name?.


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## alfred westlake

Spadeapiaries said:


> What size is that 1591 box?


4.7" x 3.2" x 2.2"


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## alfred westlake

I may have asked this before...
Who has product liability insurance on these and where did you get it?


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## johno

alfred westlake said:


> I may have asked this before...
> Who has product liability insurance on these and where did you get it?


The answer to that question is don't ask don't tell


----------



## Zane Giesbrecht

Hello! I got directed to this page from a friend. I’m looking for a vaporizer!


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## Jbee6000

Zane Giesbrecht said:


> Hello! I got directed to this page from a friend. I’m looking for a vaporizer!


Greetings and welcome! Lots of good choices here from several makers here on this site. I make these “Oxatreat”. Message me if your interested in learning more.









thanks!


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## Ruggggus

For anyone out there who wants a parts list and description on how to build your own unit I have started a "showcase" entitled Creating an exterior OAV treatment device . It appears that pasted as a link so hopefully clicking on it will take you there. If you have questions you know how to reach me. It will take me a while to finish it so be patient.


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## Biermann

Jbee6000 said:


> Greetings and welcome! Lots of good choices here from several makers here on this site. I make these “Oxatreat”. Message me if your interested in learning more.
> View attachment 62648
> 
> thanks!


Hello Jbee6000, looks great. Just consider installing longer cable, I found that a 15' 10 amp. PC cable is easy to get and it makes it easier when moving the unit around.

Good sales to you.

JoergK.


----------



## Biermann

alfred westlake said:


> I may have asked this before...
> Who has product liability insurance on these and where did you get it?


Alfred, I have asked the question at times and kind-of have to agree with Johno.

The safety issue is met if all the components you use have a certification, such as ANSI, IEC, UL, and CSA. 

You should have a warranty system setup (and don't tell me you want have anyone messing the unit up), too.


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## johno

The band heater vaporizer keeps evolving, these are my latest designs.


----------



## bluetyr

How many cycles do you get from the Blue Silicone caps? How many on the TerraCotta Red ones? I'm on about 20 and the TC Red one I've got is starting to get brittle.

As for the pots.........

Since I had access to brass turned down to fit in my 1.25" copper pipe I used that. And since I felt the CU I had used was a little soft I grabbed some hobby store brass tube. I used a 6% silver Harris Dynaflow brazing rod Dynaflow® | The Harris Products Group and an air acetylene torch with a fairly large tip to heat it. I did preclean everything in my vaporblaster and used white flux. Pretty happy with the results so far.


----------



## RAST

The blue silicone last a little longer, but I am getting a year out of them and I use the same two for testing my vaporizers, plus treating my hives I use one more with those two. They do get crusty and deteriorate down to only holding a little over a gram. Rough head figuring, I got a little over 100 out of these so far. but one red and one blue won't hold two grams loosely any longer. I also get them out of the bowl asap after vaporizing. Heat soaking them will shorten the life.


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## Ruggggus

Agreed, the heat is likely what is eating them away so turn the controller to the minimum temperature that will do the job without the nozzle clogging. The blue silicone doesn't get brittle but it does get shorter.


----------



## crofter

Ruggggus said:


> Agreed, the heat is likely what is eating them away so turn the controller to the minimum temperature that will do the job without the nozzle clogging. The blue silicone doesn't get brittle but it does get shorter.


It is not so much the *set* temperature that barbecues the caps but the overshoot excursion of near 50 F. degrees. I watch the temperature start to rise rapidly telling me the charge has been driven off, then thumb the switch to off while I remove the cap and put another one on. Probably 15 second time lapse and when I turn the power switch back on it shows just about the set temperature. The caps seem to be taking much less wear and tear but I would like to not have to diddle with it manually.

I am putting together another version with more mass on the floor of the pot and relocating the thermocouple sensor. Hopefully to reduce the range of temps.


----------



## userfriendlytoo

johno said:


> The band heater vaporizer keeps evolving, these are my latest designs.
> View attachment 63921


I bought the parts and had a friend put one of these together, but the band heater does not seem to shutdown after you hear the switch get triggered. I am using a Ink-bird PID temperature controller ITC-106. Any ideas on what might be going on here would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Ruggggus

my first thought is to switch the thermocouple wires. If doing that doesn't work, take the controller out and snap a photo of the wiring hookup and we'll get it straightened out. you can also see the wiring in my showcase which may be easier,  exterior OAV treatment device. happy to assist. keep me posted.


----------



## userfriendlytoo

Ruggggus said:


> my first thought is to switch the thermocouple wires. If doing that doesn't work, take the controller out and snap a photo of the wiring hookup and we'll get it straightened out. you can also see the wiring in my showcase which may be easier,  exterior OAV treatment device. happy to assist. keep me posted.


I will try that tomorrow and get back to you , thanks.


----------



## johno

First of all, when you turn the unit on and it has completed its self check you should see your green set point with the red coming up to room temperature, after a few seconds you should see this red temperature increasing until it gets close to the green set point. When this is happening the little red light marked out should be on and it should go off once you get to the set point. This means the internal relay suppling power to the heater is turned off however the temperature may keep rising for about 20 seconds as the heater is much hotter than the copper bowl. If the temperature keeps rising after about 30 seconds after the out light has gone off most likely your wiring is incorrect as the heater circuit should be broken by the relay contacts #7 and #8


----------



## userfriendlytoo

userfriendlytoo said:


> I will try that tomorrow and get back to you , thanks.


When I switched the thermocouple wires the measured temperature started going negative, then gave me an error code. I took some pictures of the wiring, so hopefully you can see what needs changed. It does sound like the heater goes off, and the light goes off, but the temperature keeps rising. Maybe I should change the set point to 200 degrees and see how far it goes past a smaller number.


----------



## userfriendlytoo

userfriendlytoo said:


> I will try that tomorrow and get back to you , thanks.


Here is another picture.


----------



## johno

userfriendlytoo said:


> Here is another picture.


The wiring looks correct except for the ground wire which should be connected to the base of the copper bowl or to the aluminum bar. With on-off controll you will always go higher than the set point but go ahead and set the set point to 200 and see where it goes to. What size is the band heater cause the higher the wattage the greater the rise will be once the relay cuts the power to the heater. but with 275 watts you may go 20 degrees higher. The other possibility is that the relay contacts are burned closed you should be able to check that with a multi meter.


----------



## userfriendlytoo

johno said:


> The wiring looks correct except for the ground wire which should be connected to the base of the copper bowl or to the aluminum bar. With on-off controll you will always go higher than the set point but go ahead and set the set point to 200 and see where it goes to. What size is the band heater cause the higher the wattage the greater the rise will be once the relay cuts the power to the heater. but with 275 watts you may go 20 degrees higher. The other possibility is that the relay contacts are burned closed you should be able to check that with a multi meter.


The band heater is 300 watt.


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## johno

Well then you should expect at least a 20 degree rise over the set point value before the temperature begins decreasing. If the temperature continues to increase way above and keeps climbing it would appear to be a problem with the relay contacts not opening.


----------



## userfriendlytoo

johno said:


> Well then you should expect at least a 20 degree rise over the set point value before the temperature begins decreasing. If the temperature continues to increase way above and keeps climbing it would appear to be a problem with the relay contacts not opening.


I lowered the target temperature to 190, you can hear the unit click when the temperature is reached and the light goes off, but it went to 275 then I unplugged it.


----------



## johno

Disconnect the heater wire from #8 then with your multi meter on the ohm scale measure between # 7 and #8 of course with the unit unplugged, you should get avery high maybe offscale ohm reading which means an open cicuit which is what you should get with open contacts, on the other hand you could get 0 or a very low ohm reading which would tell you that the contacts are closed which would mean a faulty relay. check it out and see.


----------



## userfriendlytoo

johno said:


> Disconnect the heater wire from #8 then with your multi meter on the ohm scale measure between # 7 and #8 of course with the unit unplugged, you should get avery high maybe offscale ohm reading which means an open cicuit which is what you should get with open contacts, on the other hand you could get 0 or a very low ohm reading which would tell you that the contacts are closed which would mean a faulty relay. check it out and see.


O'K I will try that. Thanks.


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## johno

What you could also try is to bring the set point to below your room temperature and see if the bowl is still increasing in temperature, you might have to allow the unit to cool after setting the temperature and when cool try again to see if the bowl heats up with the out light off.


----------



## userfriendlytoo

userfriendlytoo said:


> O'K I will try that. Thanks.


We did the test with the multi meter and it did not register anything on the test that you said to do, so looks like I need to see about getting a replacement temperature controller.Is the Ink-bird a good unit to use or are there better units that would fit that might be more reliable?


----------



## johno

I have found the Inkbird about the best of the Chinese controllers, if it was not for the Chinese controllers we would probably not have this kind of vaporizer cause before they came on the market controllers were way above $200 a piece.


----------



## Ruggggus

userfriendlytoo said:


> I bought the parts and had a friend put one of these together, but the band heater does not seem to shutdown after you hear the switch get triggered. I am using a Ink-bird PID temperature controller ITC-106. Any ideas on what might be going on here would be greatly appreciated.


The fact that you are hearing the relay posses a question. when you are using the multimeter on ohms is your reading "0" or a low number or is it "OL" with no digital readout change (it usually takes the meter at least a short time to get down to "0" if it has a perfect connection)? I doubt the light coming on makes any noise and I assume that you have the alarm relay set at the factory setting. If the main rely is not functional you can use the alarm relay to run the unit (it has the same amperage rating (save you buying another controller) but the readout will be different while using the unit. PM me and I will give you my phone number and we can get this operational without having to buy another controller.


----------



## alfred westlake

johno said:


> The band heater vaporizer keeps evolving, these are my latest designs.
> View attachment 63921


How do you keep that long nozzle from clogging? Are you setting it at a real high temp?


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## johno

Copper nozzle no longer than 2" and the set point at 450 F, then there are no problems unless you block the outlet with wax or propolis.


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## alfred westlake

johno said:


> Copper nozzle no longer than 2" and the set point at 450 F, then there are no problems unless you block the outlet with wax or propolis.


450F
Ok will play with it. I have been doing 420f.
Do you use the PID tune? Or just keep the D turned off and use the preset P and I settings?

Thanks for the help.


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## johno

No point in using the Tune as there is no constant load. No longer use the Mypin as the Inkbird is a better unit.


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## alfred westlake

johno said:


> No point in using the Tune as there is no constant load. No longer use the Mypin as the Inkbird is a better unit.


Thanks, I didn't think that using tune was needed.
What is it you like about the Inkbird over the Mypin?
Do you set them up the same? Wiring the same?


----------



## johno

You will find that the screws are larger than the Mypins screws, I stripped so many screws on the mypins just trying to tighten the connections. The Inkbird also has solid connections to the board unlike the sliding connections from the connectors to the Mypins boards which often caused problems. I also had to set the mypin set point at 440F as it really overshot the set point quite a lot to eventually settle at 450F The Inkbirds are set at 450F and react much better to temperature overshoot. Also Had so many of the Mypin plastic retaining clips come adrift and rattle in the box if the box was banged against something whereas the Inkbird uses a different method to hold the unit against the front plate and never comes loose. The wiring is slightly different but the diagram is on the side and setting up is easier and faster. Over the years I have had fewer faulty controllers with the Inkbird than I have had with the Mypins.


----------



## alfred westlake

johno said:


> You will find that the screws are larger than the Mypins screws, I stripped so many screws on the mypins just trying to tighten the connections. The Inkbird also has solid connections to the board unlike the sliding connections from the connectors to the Mypins boards which often caused problems. I also had to set the mypin set point at 440F as it really overshot the set point quite a lot to eventually settle at 450F The Inkbirds are set at 450F and react much better to temperature overshoot. Also Had so many of the Mypin plastic retaining clips come adrift and rattle in the box if the box was banged against something whereas the Inkbird uses a different method to hold the unit against the front plate and never comes loose. The wiring is slightly different but the diagram is on the side and setting up is easier and faster. Over the years I have had fewer faulty controllers with the Inkbird than I have had with the Mypins.


I can't find a picture of how the inkbird mounting bracket works, It would be nice to have a better mounting solution. 

I don't see the Inkbirds for less than $25 + ship( $4-$5) anywhere.
I can get the Mypins for $16 direct from China, $20 once you add shipping and such. So that is almost $10 per unit difference.
Are you finding the Inkbirds cheaper than I have seen them somewhere?

Thanks


----------



## johno

I get the Inkbirds for around $25, However I have found that cheaper is not always better. I have had to strip down and repair dry solder joints on countless Mypins to get them to work , thats besides the contacts that I had to remove from unused places to replace the contacts where the screw had stripped the threads in the bottom half and then the failures from the sliding contacts. The inkbird has a square mounting bracket that goes completely around the controller body and rachets down against the face plate there are a couple of tensioning screws on the bracket but I remove them completely, Anyone want to buy a few thousand 3mm screws and nuts, actaully come fetch them for no charge. Quite frankly, selling my standard model for $160 still gives me a return of $30/hour with the increases in raw materiels that has taken place over the last few months and I am quite happy with that.


----------



## alfred westlake

johno said:


> I get the Inkbirds for around $25, However I have found that cheaper is not always better. I have had to strip down and repair dry solder joints on countless Mypins to get them to work , thats besides the contacts that I had to remove from unused places to replace the contacts where the screw had stripped the threads in the bottom half and then the failures from the sliding contacts. The inkbird has a square mounting bracket that goes completely around the controller body and rachets down against the face plate there are a couple of tensioning screws on the bracket but I remove them completely, Anyone want to buy a few thousand 3mm screws and nuts, actaully come fetch them for no charge. Quite frankly, selling my standard model for $160 still gives me a return of $30/hour with the increases in raw materiels that has taken place over the last few months and I am quite happy with that.


I think I will order one to play with. A better mounting bracket might be all it takes to get me to change.

Just to make sure I am getting the right thing, it is the
INKBIRD ITC-106RH
Is that the correct one?


----------



## johno

That is the one.


----------



## alfred westlake

johno said:


> That is the one.


Am I correct in thinking that the
Inkbird ITC-100RH
would work as well, just no Fahrenheit setting, only Celsius?


----------



## johno

I have never used it so I cannot tell. Get one and try it


----------



## johno

I looked it up and this controller has been discontinued by the manufacturer. ITC - 100RH


----------



## BeardingBeesApiary

Jbee6000 said:


> Greetings and welcome! Lots of good choices here from several makers here on this site. I make these “Oxatreat”. Message me if your interested in learning more.
> View attachment 62648
> 
> 
> thanks!


Because I am a new user it wont let me send you a private message, but I was wondering how much you charge for these and how quickly one could be shipped out.


----------



## BeardingBeesApiary

johno said:


> Here are the latest mods to my Cheapvap, I 3D printed a cover for the deep electrical box to take the Mypin temp controller and also printed a handle to fit to the bottom of the box. I also used a piece of aluminum angle to mount the hot parts insulated by 3/4" of hard wood. The only other mod I might try in the future is to fit a cable clamping setup on the bottom of the handle.
> View attachment 36126
> View attachment 36127
> 
> Johno


What 3D printer do you have and or recommend if you dont mind me asking.


----------



## johno

I have been using Creality Enders. But there is quite a steep learning curve to using CAD and the slicing software.


----------



## Jbee6000

BeardingBeesApiary said:


> Because I am a new user it wont let me send you a private message, but I was wondering how much you charge for these and how quickly one could be shipped out.


Greetings, sorry for the delay. I sell them for 187 at Goodbeeks.com.


----------



## johno

Some 5 years later I am still refering beekeepers to this thread when I have requests to help them build their own vaporizer I then also give them a basic parts list as follows.
I mostly hand make parts as I have produced the units.
The vaporizer consists of a Mypin TA4-RNR temp controller, driving a MX 15006 120 volt 275 watt band heater using a type K thermocouple. The copper bowl consists of a 11/4" copper coupling with a copper bottom welded on and 2" of 3/16 soft refrigeration copper welded up 11/2"from the bottom. The power cord and electronics go into a B120A blue outlet box and the bowl is connected by an oak block to which the aluminum bar is bolted to which the copper bowl is bolted. Those are the parts and also a handle and box cover which I mostly make up myself and assemble and test. The temperature controllers I get from Amazon and also the thermocouples. The plugs (caps) the oxalic acid goes into can be purchased from me at $2.25 each plus $9.00 for priority mail - manufacturer CA plugs. The band heater I get from Plastic Process equipment. Most of the rest from Ace Hardware.
Regards,
John

I dont know who has the authority to place a thread into the sticky section and I think this thread deserves to be there so that it is easier to fint to new beekeepers on this forum.


----------



## Struttinbuck

I just done a search for the thermistor and it's not showing up in search results. Does it use one? And where is it located on the device?


----------



## Biermann

Struttinbuck - I believe we all use K type thermo couples and most are bolted between the bowl and frame as a ring connector. Some machine special bushings to attache a screwed-in thermo couple, but it makes mass production more expensive. I have good results with the INKBIRD-106RH as johno stated, the MYPIN's have been a pain.

The arithmetic is generally that the heat from the heat band around the bowl will travel to the bottom quickly and give good & reliable results. 

Never underestimate the brutality some beek's can put to equipment. I have seen units that have been abused to hell, but still work as intended.

My motto: it got to be ruff, tuff & watertight. Well, the watertight maybe a short coming


----------



## Struttinbuck

johno said:


> Some 5 years later I am still refering beekeepers to this thread when I have requests to help them build their own vaporizer I then also give them a basic parts list as follows.
> I mostly hand make parts as I have produced the units.
> The vaporizer consists of a Mypin TA4-RNR temp controller, driving a MX 15006 120 volt 275 watt band heater using a type K thermocouple. The copper bowl consists of a 11/4" copper coupling with a copper bottom welded on and 2" of 3/16 soft refrigeration copper welded up 11/2"from the bottom. The power cord and electronics go into a B120A blue outlet box and the bowl is connected by an oak block to which the aluminum bar is bolted to which the copper bowl is bolted. Those are the parts and also a handle and box cover which I mostly make up myself and assemble and test. The temperature controllers I get from Amazon and also the thermocouples. The plugs (caps) the oxalic acid goes into can be purchased from me at $2.25 each plus $9.00 for priority mail - manufacturer CA plugs. The band heater I get from Plastic Process equipment. Most of the rest from Ace Hardware.
> Regards,
> John
> 
> I dont know who has the authority to place a thread into the sticky section and I think this thread deserves to be there so that it is easier to fint to new beekeepers on this forum.


Is there a way to tell what the temperature of the OA is coming out of the device?


Biermann said:


> Struttinbuck - I believe we all use K type thermo couples and most are bolted between the bowl and frame as a ring connector. Some machine special bushings to attache a screwed-in thermo couple, but it makes mass production more expensive. I have good results with the INKBIRD-106RH as johno stated, the MYPIN's have been a pain.
> 
> The arithmetic is generally that the heat from the heat band around the bowl will travel to the bottom quickly and give good & reliable results.
> 
> Never underestimate the brutality some beek's can put to equipment. I have seen units that have been abused to hell, but still work as intended.
> 
> My motto: it got to be ruff, tuff & watertight. Well, the watertight maybe a short coming


I was thinking it would have to be in the bowl , the copper band would read close to the same temperature of the band heater.


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## johno

So the temperature of the pot of vigorously boiling water would be the same








as the temperature of the boiling water?


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## Biermann

Struttinbuck:


> Is there a way to tell what the temperature of the OA is coming out of the device?


 Johno beat me to it, didn't have the time last night. The temperature of the vapor exiting the tube is realtively of little importance as long as the bowl gets hot enough to vaporize, don't over complicate a simple process. Setting the PID to 400° F or 204°C will give you the result you need. 



> I was thinking it would have to be in the bowl , the copper band would read close to the same temperature of the band heater.


Having the thermo couple wedge between between band heater and bowl will give to quick of a reading, the energy should travel to the to be heated material first and have a small delaz giving the reading, on copper, this is a second to two delay, but it gives the time to stabelize. Again, don't over complicate this, it is very simple.


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## Struttinbuck

Biermann said:


> Struttinbuck: Johno beat me to it, didn't have the time last night. The temperature of the vapor exiting the tube is realtively of little importance as long as the bowl gets hot enough to vaporize, don't over complicate a simple process. Setting the PID to 400° F or 204°C will give you the result you need.
> 
> 
> Having the thermo couple wedge between between band heater and bowl will give to quick of a reading, the energy should travel to the to be heated material first and have a small delaz giving the reading, on copper, this is a second to two delay, but it gives the time to stabelize. Again, don't over complicate this, it is very simple.


Thays my point.


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## Struttinbuck

johno said:


> So the temperature of the pot of vigorously boiling water would be the same
> View attachment 66105
> 
> as the temperature of the boiling water?


It kinda looks like that acid is spraying out at an angle? Like 45 degrees to the left.


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## johno

Thats my point.


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## Struttinbuck

johno said:


> So the temperature of the pot of vigorously boiling water would be the same
> View attachment 66105
> 
> as the temperature of the boiling water?
> 
> 
> johno said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the temperature of the pot of vigorously boiling water
Click to expand...




johno said:


> So the temperature of the pot of vigorously boiling water would be





johno said:


> Thats my point.


Now that the steam heads agree maybe the PHDs can jump in.


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## Rogue26

Is there anyone in the group that has had any luck making the pot with an aluminum plug in the bottom like the ProVap does?


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## 123456789

That's how I make mine and they work great. I mostly use stainless steel tubes but only had a picture of one I made with copper.


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## Rogue26

Spadeapiaries said:


> That's how I make mine and they work great. I mostly use stainless steel tubes but only had a picture of one I made with copper.
> 
> View attachment 67154
> 
> View attachment 67153


You don’t have any issues with the bottom becoming loose after a few heating/cooling cycles? I have just started trying to use aluminum and pressing it in to a 1-1/4” coupling and after to heat tests of 30min each I can separate the two pieces by hand. It seems like with the two dissimilar metals that the copper is expanding faster and not returning to the original size. I am worried that of I increase the size of my plug much more I will end up splitting the coupling. I really like the look and feel of them and prefer to not have a hole through drilled like I do with the copper bottom.


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## 123456789

By leaving some aluminum under the stainless steel the band heater holds the whole thing together. I also have the whole thing wrapped in muffler wrap so if it loosened I never noticed. Still works great and has no leaks. The stainless steel may make a difference???


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## crofter

Rogue26 said:


> You don’t have any issues with the bottom becoming loose after a few heating/cooling cycles? I have just started trying to use aluminum and pressing it in to a 1-1/4” coupling and after to heat tests of 30min each I can separate the two pieces by hand. It seems like with the two dissimilar metals that the copper is expanding faster and not returning to the original size. I am worried that of I increase the size of my plug much more I will end up splitting the coupling. I really like the look and feel of them and prefer to not have a hole through drilled like I do with the copper bottom.


_The aluminum expands at a higher rate than the copper and the coppers low yield strength causes it to permanently stretch. When it cools, the aluminum shrinks more than the copper so the copper ring is now loose. With aluminum and stainless the expansion differentials are similar to the copper/aluminum but the higher yield strength of the stainless allows it to stretch elastically rather than deform so it has a better chance of staying tight.

As to avoiding the thru drilling; I use 2 stainlesss steel capscrews #8 -32 and drill and tap the bottom so the screws thread thru from the inside. I dope the threads with muffler cement. No leaks. Use stainess steel for resistance to the hot acid plus lower heat loss thru the mount screws than common steel._


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## Rogue26

For those that are making the cups out of pipe instead of couplings have you used type L pipe? I have been trying to locate type K to get the thicker wall thickness but no one local has it and freight to get it makes it cost prohibitive. Doing a quick internet search it looks like 1-1/4” type L has a wall thickness of .055 and when I a set of calipers on a couple I get nearly the same thing. Anyone see any issue with using the type L?

Thanks


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## Taz834

Thanks for info on your Easy Vap for us DIYs!!! I jumped in the fire with both feet and made 5 in first attempt. My aluminum handle only reaches 110 degrees after 45mins continious run time but wrap in parachute cord anyways. My plan is to keep 2 and gift the other 3 to family/friends beekeepers. Best gift is time and a beekeeping tool!!
Anyways...has anyone played with 12v controllers at all or do they make a 12v PID that can handle 400w? 
120v obviously involves either a local 120v source or a generator. My wonder is how many hives can we treat w a smaller battery/inverter combo. I have a few 40ah lithiums also. At @300w I should be able to easily treat 20 hives. I will test the 12v battery/inverter set up tomorrow of the lithium 40A. Lithium you can get a claimed 90% of rating and Lead about 50% so I'll be testing both. Resistant heat is known to drain batteries fast though. I'm curious what the thoughts/results are. Ease of portablility or 12v PID would be the goal vs generator.


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## Taz834

Rogue26 said:


> For those that are making the cups out of pipe instead of couplings have you used type L pipe? I have been trying to locate type K to get the thicker wall thickness but no one local has it and freight to get it makes it cost prohibitive. Doing a quick internet search it looks like 1-1/4” type L has a wall thickness of .055 and when I a set of calipers on a couple I get nearly the same thing. Anyone see any issue with using the type L?
> 
> Thanks


I found the 3/4" L type pipe for bottom was .05 and 1-1/4" coupling .05. Figured why look for a1-1/4" L coupling/pipe(if available?) when the thicknesses match already. What would I gain with a thicker wall on coupling especially if youre already wrapping cup for better insulation/temp consistency.


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## Taz834

...


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## johno

12Volt PID controllers are available, but what is the point of a 12 volt controller when you will not find a 12 volt band heater. Besides if you have a 250 watt 12volt heater you would be drawing around 21 amps so would need some heavy cable , at least #12. Then you will need an SSR as the relays in the PID's can only handle about 4 amps max. Far better to just clip a 500 watt inverter to your battery and then a #16 cord. All the extra work you will go to for a 12 volt system will probably pay for an inverter.


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## crofter

johno said:


> 12Volt PID controllers are available, but what is the point of a 12 volt controller when you will not find a 12 volt band heater. Besides if you have a 250 watt 12volt heater you would be drawing around 21 amps so would need some heavy cable , at least #12. Then you will need an SSR as the relays in the PID's can only handle about 4 amps max. Far better to just clip a 500 watt inverter to your battery and then a #16 cord. All the extra work you will go to for a 12 volt system will probably pay for an inverter.


Might be the thing if someone was making an incubator. Do you have a link to the item.


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## johno

Frank I saw some Inkbirds ITC-106?? that were 12 volts, I found them on Amazon while searching for some Inkbird ITC-106RH's


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## johno

Frank if you take a look under smart PID controllers at inkbird.com you will find 12/24 volt ac/dc ITC-100VL and also ITC-106VL also 12 volts. But on Amazon there are temp controllers for incubators for about $12


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## crofter

Thanks johno; I have some on order but the ship from china may have gotten mislaid!


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## Rogue26

Anyone have any issues with the PPE bandheaters? I have always used the MX15006 and the last batch I ordered won’t clamp down on the coupling. I ended up ordering another model that is 1-3/8” - 300w unit but now I am stuck with 20 1-1/2” heaters that don’t fit. Does anyone use another brand of heater?


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## Biermann

Hello Rogue26,

I have used PPE band heaters by the hundreds exclusively and had no similar fitting problems. Did you contact PPE? You are in the US I see, but not your exact location, so it should be easy for you to remedy the problem. I have to say that the clamping screws PPE uses sometimes have real problems with the precision of the Allen head.

Did you check the markings on the band heater to be what you ordered? I use the MX13705.

Again, I suggest you solve your problem by returning the wrong product.


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## johno

I have been using a 300 watt power station purchased from Amazon to power my vaporizer while doing my OAV treatments. As my bees are spread in 4 different directions this has saved quite a bit of time from unwinding and winding up the extension cord as I move from position to position. I have 14 full colonies left at home, still have 6 to unload to get to 8 where I now want to stay and after treating those 14 colonies around 4 grams each I still have 80% of the power station capacity remaining. So this little 8.5lb power station could probably easily treat around 60 colonies with 4 grams each and are availble from around $111 and upwards and it has certainly made my life a little easier.


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## Struttinbuck

Rogue26 said:


> Anyone have any issues with the PPE bandheaters? I have always used the MX15006 and the last batch I ordered won’t clamp down on the coupling. I ended up ordering another model that is 1-3/8” - 300w unit but now I am stuck with 20 1-1/2” heaters that don’t fit. Does anyone use another brand of heater?


If the band is too big would copper sheets help? Even foil. Aluminum is also a very high conductor of heat. Not like copper, but still way up on the totum pole. And actually it almost sounds like you can get a peice of 1 1/2" OD copper pipe and slip it over your heating chamber. Just make sure the wall thickness is 1/16" thick and it will get you from your 1 3/8" to 1 1/2"


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## crofter

You can use the same diameter pipe and hacksaw a split down one side and open it up to slip over the heater bowl. If you have a larger diameter you may have to cut a strip off after slitting it, then close down a bit. Math or trial and error will get you there.


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## johno

Actually, I think they must have re tooled the dies for rolling that size of band heater and there was a learning curve to get the opperation correct. The problem ended up with the 2 ends not folding in correctly and so did not allow the 2 ends to come together over the stated diameter. Basically to correct any that would not fit the couplings diameter I ended up cutting off the excess materiel at the ends with a good pair of shears. This solved the problem although it cost unwarranted labor and it just had to be dealt with as the goods from other manufacturers I found had greater problems.


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## Struttinbuck

The thickness of the copper is determined by the type of copper pipe you get either being L or M type copper.


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## Biermann

Struttinbuck said:


> The thickness of the copper is determined by the type of copper pipe you get either being L or M type copper.


The OD is the same, no matter if types K, L, M or DWV. Green represents type K, blue represents type L, red represents type M, and yellow represents type DWV. Thus, type L copper pipes are also known as blue and type M copper pipes are also known as red. 

1 1/4" pipe wall thickness: K 0.065, L 0.055, M 0.42, DWV 0.040

The important part: the OD does not change. Otherwise the couplings would have to be all different and the industry thought to not add anymore confusion.

*Now,* some of our vaporizer builders use couplings for their bowl material and that is where some of the confusion starts. 

I use 1 1/4" K-type (OD is actually 1-19/64"), simply because it stores more energy in the bowl material. We use laser-cut discs from 0.080 sheets and weld the disc to the pipe. The PPE MX13705 1-3/8 X 2 PREMIUM MICA BANDS fit this pipe AAA.

@ ROGUE26 - I also suggest to use some filler material to use-up the 1 1/2" bands you have, but use the route of using copper as filler.


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## Struttinbuck

Biermann said:


> The OD is the same, no matter if types K, L, M or DWV. Green represents type K, blue represents type L, red represents type M, and yellow represents type DWV. Thus, type L copper pipes are also known as blue and type M copper pipes are also known as red.
> 
> 1 1/4" pipe wall thickness: K 0.065, L 0.055, M 0.42, DWV 0.040
> 
> The important part: the OD does not change. Otherwise the couplings would have to be all different and the industry thought to not add anymore confusion.
> 
> *Now,* some of our vaporizer builders use couplings for their bowl material and that is where some of the confusion starts.
> 
> I use 1 1/4" K-type (OD is actually 1-19/64"), simply because it stores more energy in the bowl material. We use laser-cut discs from 0.080 sheets and weld the disc to the pipe. The PPE MX13705 1-3/8 X 2 PREMIUM MICA BANDS fit this pipe AAA.
> 
> @ ROGUE26 - I also suggest to use some filler material to use-up the 1 1/2" bands you have, but use the route of using copper as filler.


Nail, hammer, head, hit. Lol 
It should be able to take up the space he's needing for his extra large band heater and by using copper should operate well.


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## bjorn

I just finished reading this entire 6 year saga... I enjoyed it more than most novels. Thank you all for your selfless sharing of information... Johno, Biermann and all the rest. Thumbs up!

So, I am collecting my parts and have a few questions. I'm going with a 1.25" copper coupler... easily sourced. Perhaps not the thermal mass of K copper, but I can buy locally. I was originally thinking I'd machine a brass plug for the bottom. Now I think I'll stick to flattened copper pipe brazed on. I have some Safety-Silv 50N... I hope that will suffice with flux.

I will go with the Inkbird... I have an extra from my WMO furnace, but it has a SSR which is likely overkill. It's also the spare for the furnace... gotta have heat in the shop. 

I will order the heater from PPE later today. 

The caps I'll be sending an order to Johno if he's still selling... please let me know. 

The box I will likely use a Hammond box... looks clean and pretty reasonable. I bought a non-conductive electrical box, but looking at my spare PID, it won't be deep enough.

My first question is the thermocouple. I have a spare threaded thermocouple. It sounds like Biermann is buying the wire on a roll and making his own. Thus, that leads me to believe the temp sensing is a factor of the resistance in the wire. Could I cut the threads off, twist the stripped wire together and fuse with silver solder? It seems the threaded end is just a means of connection, like Biermann's ring terminal.

Another question is more about hive designs. It seems like there are many who feel distribution of the vapor, aerosol, tiny solids in air (enjoyed that portion) is better from above the brood chamber or right in the middle. I, however, am running Layens boxes. So I have a follower and soft cover "in the way". I have vent holes at the bottom in the rear and round entrances at the front. The entrances are warm way as I understand it... the entrance effectively runs right into the comb. But, I do have a 2 inch "spacer" below the frames. If I vaporized from the rear vent, would the vapor likely blow past the rear follower and up into the brood area? Perhaps this more appropriate for another thread, but hoping some here will have experience with it. 

Thanks in advance. Again I truly appreciate the trial and error, expertise, R&D, experimentation and I suspect at times shear luck that went into this thread.


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## crofter

Regarding silver soldering the join in the thermo couple wires. The alloys of the two wires are

Chromel-P Composition: 90 Ni, 10 Cr
Alumel Composition: 95 Ni, 2 Mn, 2 Si, 1 Al
It is not necessary to solder the connection and the additional metal alloys may throw another unknown into the equation. I have fused the ends but have some now for more than 4 years still accurate merely by twisting the ends together than folding back the twisted section onto itself and crimping. In use the join is compressed between the mounting bolt washer and the pot bottom. I dip the joint in dialectric grease for good measure. If you are into pulling the controller apart it is a good idea to also use the dialectric grease where the terminals make contact with the printed circuit board. That can be a corrosion point trouble spot.

If just for your own use a neat compact housing is not so important and it is much easier to make all the connections if they are not in tight quarters. Using the solid state relay in addition to the controller takes up space and adds to the hookup complexity. I like the ellimination of mechanical contacts that the relay provides.
When you take into account the time you spend putting one together it will make you appreciate the value in the price that Johnno or Biermann charge for their units.


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## bjorn

Thanks Frank. I 100% agree on the value of their units but I do enjoy this kind of work. I was an auto mechanic for 20 years and have been teaching auto tech for the last decade or so. I do miss the hands-on work every day. So, I tinker in my shop at home to satisfy the need.


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## Biermann

Crofter, your instructions are on the point. Any more questions, just PM me, bjorn.

Good luck! For the inkbird, a solid state relay is a smart choice, I have many out without problems (I hope) but some just go numb at the relay.

What the thermocouple, switch the leads if the temperature of the bowl rises, but the digital count goes down.

Cheers, JoergK.


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## bjorn

It seems that the PID with the SSR is more ideal, since there is not a mechanical relay. Theoretically it is less likely to fail. The flipside is there are more wiring connections to cause issues than with the relay model. 
Since it's only 2.5 amps, is the heatsink necessary on the SSR? That would add to the required case size.


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## crofter

bjorn said:


> It seems that the PID with the SSR is more ideal, since there is not a mechanical relay. Theoretically it is less likely to fail. The flipside is there are more wiring connections to cause issues than with the relay model.
> Since it's only 2.5 amps, is the heatsink necessary on the SSR? That would add to the required case size.


At that current draw there is negligible heat produced in the relay. After initial warm up period the time ON is quite short. You do not have to dissipate more than a fraction of the conducted energy. Having a high quality terminal crimper is a blessing. Most cheapie crimpers give poor electrical contact area and less than poor mechanical integrity.


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## bjorn

"Lucky" for me I paid the Snap On piper for 2 decades. Quality tools won't be an issue. 

I assumed folks around here were not heat sinking. Those ssr's are rated 40A. I can see needing a heatsink there, but not at 2.5A.


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## bjorn

Do most of you put a fender washer i
















nside the bowl at the bottom? I have the screw countersunk, but wondering if I should put a fender washer on both sides of the copper bottom... essentially sandwiching the bottom between fender washers.


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## crofter

Looks like the bottom material is quite thick so may not be needed. It is common to place the thermocouple between a washer and the pot bottom. I would definitely use stainless steel bolt (I use 2, one left, one right) since the heat conduction is less than half that of common carbon steel. Saves heat loss and allows less to escape into the control box and innards.


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## johno

Bjorn I just use a 1/4" pan head screw with a 1" x 1/4" fender washer underneath.


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## bjorn

Thanks. I will grab a stainless screw... the conduction difference makes sense. I am already drilled for 1 centered screw so the 2 screw method will have to wait until v2.0

I was thinking the countersunk screw would be easier to clean around than a pan head... maybe negligible difference?


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## johno

If you can countersink the bottom of the bowl so that the head of the countersunk screw is level with the bottom that would be good, mostly the copper bottom is too thin to accept a countersink.


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## bjorn

I just finished my vaporizer. The relay shuts off at 450, but on initial warm up it continues to climb to 491. I assume that's due to the heater taking it from ambient to 450 and the heater takes a while to cool back down. After it cycles once, it seems to maintain a little tighter temp control. Does insulating the bowl help with the temp swings? I plan to do so, just haven't rounded up the stove gasket rope yet.


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## Biermann

My settings are never over 400F and you are right, initially the PID 'overshoots' a good chunk, but the pid will learn.

Insulating makes a little difference, particularly if you treat during colder ambient temps.


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## johno

Quite frankly as long as the bowl gets to 450 degrees it matters not if it goes any higher as this is just part of on off control it will eventually settle down to close to the set temperature after a while as the bowl is not loaded it may take quite a few minutes, there may be a difference between your setup and mine as mine rarely goes over 470 degrees. The important temperature is the one it drops to when the OA hits the bottom of a clean bowl and no matter where the temperature was it will drop to around 300 degrees before climbing once the sublimation takes place to completion which can be seen to be around 400 degrees. That little extra between 400 and 450 degrees is just a spinning flywheel which will speed up the avaiable energy required to sublimate the OA and just make the process a few seconds quicker. But as you are generally treating more than one hive as you move from one hive to the next there is not sufficient time for the temperature to rise much over 450 and then you are appling the next dose. Once you note where the temperature drops to with a clean bowl you should remember this because when the bowl gets dity with layers of oxidization you will find that temperature you first noted will start getting higher and higher and the sublimation times also higher and higher at which point most beeks consider that the OA has not fallen out of the cap and into the bottom of the bowl, they then start beating down on the cap without supporting the nozzle and eventually destroy the nozzle. All this can be avoided by cleaning out the bowl when cool with a little water and an old toothbrush.


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## bjorn

Thank you both. 

johno, How much OA do your blue caps hold? I can measure, but figured you know from frequent flyer miles.

I assume most here are using more than the 1g dose since it seems to be regarded as ineffective.


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## johno

Bjorn the 1 gram dose was for a single deep box, as most hives have 2 deeps or 3 mediums for the brood section the dosage was supposed to be 2 grams, the cap filled is between 3 and 4 grams and I have been using a cap full for about 6 years now. I keep my OA in one of those 1 1/2lb folger coffee plastic containers about 1/3 full and just push the cap down into the OA taper down and when you lift it out it is full of OA close to 4 grams. Now when you take a used cap to fill scrape out the inside hole and run a spoon around the outside of the cap to remove the OA that has condensed on the cap. AS they are normally clean I do this over the OA container so that the excess OA can be re used. As far as any dose being inefective is dependant on many factors, how much coverage of vapor you are getting in the box, how close together treatments are and even weather conditions at the time of treatment as I am certain you do not get as good an internal coverage if a stiff breeze is blowing as you would in a calm situation. I personally do not put much faith in the academic experts opinions. I can do simple math, 20% devided into 100% goes at least 5 times.


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## johno

I just built a new bowl that would take a countersunk head screw in the bottom of the bowl, thinking that a flat bottom would make it easier to clean and perhaps would allow faster sublimation.
Ran a treatment on my yard this morning to try it out and the results not quite what I expected. Sure with a flat bottom, easy to wipe the brush around but oh the sublimation time was much slower. Now why could that be, well with the flat bottom the OA spreads across the bottom over the flat head of the screw but when my vaporizers with a pan head screw are long done you can lift the cap off of the vaporizer with the flat head screw and find a ball of OA still sizzling on top of the screw. So let us analyse that. The screw head is the coldest part of the bowl as it is drawing heat downward into the aluminum bracket, but the pan head screw being above the level of the bottom of the bowl and rounded allows the OA to run off of the screw head onto the hotter surrounding part of the bowl. So bearing this in mind that is why some of the other vaporizers with a flat bottom have moved to 350 watt heaters to have comparable sublimation times. I think having an insulated bowl and a lighter aluminum bracket adds to the efficiency and you get more bang for less watts.


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## bjorn

Interesting research. I ended up going with a pan head as my countersunk screws were a rounded head anyway. They did not have stainless flat countersink screws in stock.

I picked up a 500w inverter and ran the vaporizer thru it using my car jump starter pack. I believe it will work just fine to treat my 7 hives. Granted, they are spread out over my acreage, but I should be able to get to them on one charge. 

Now to figure out best placement of the treatment access holes. I don't currently have the soft inner covers in my layens hives. I should be able to drill an angled hole at the top of the brood chamber under the current QE and supers. After my series of treatments I will install the inner soft covers and leave them the supers to feed from this fall.

Just gotta pick up some stove gasket to insulate the vaporizer bowl and I'll be ready to go.


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## johno

I have found the 5/16" gasket the easiest to work with, I normally put mine on with the heater band onto the copper bowl. Winding the stuff on from top to bottom and pulling the rope around the mounting screwand under a washer. Then wrap a layer of heavy duct tape around the rope to prevent it from unravelling. I then lightly use a heat gun to shrink the duct tape around the bottom area and while it is hot use a stainless steel knife to fold the hot tape onto the bottom of the bowl. When it is cool I then asseble the bowl onto the rest of the vaporizer.


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## bjorn

Thanks, I think I am understanding your technique.
Do you happen to have a photo handy?


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## johno

Unfortunately I do not.


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## crofter

I have a good supply of fiberglass cloth remnants which I use to wind around the bowl mummy style, probably 3/8" thick then smear on a skin of high temp. silicone. It is flexible and tough enough to stay together. I have to say that Johno's rendition is prettier than mine.😊


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## bjorn

Clamped one end of the gasket under the heater clamp and started wrapping from the top. Worked out perfect to terminate on the bottom with a double layer over my fender washers which held the rope snug against the bottom of the bowl. A piece of heat shrink on the end holds it from unraveling and the zip tie holds that in place.


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