# Winter and Hivetop condensation



## rharlow (Mar 20, 2011)

As I understand it, a lot of people use homosote or similar material on their inner cover to absorb moisture/condensation during the winter. I've also seen people using that pink foamboard insulation on top of their inner cover, or there are even some ventilated inner covers that incorporate the foam for winter. If using the foam, are they also using the homosote? My thoughts would think that perhaps the foam would be better since it helps insulate and therefore prevents some condensation. But, I also understand that the bees can gather any needed moisture from the homosote. Can anyone shed some light on this? Thanks


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Bees will remove unprotected foam given the opportunity. I learned that the hard way in a frame feeder. Absorbing moisture in particle board/Homasote is probably not the ideal medium. Sugar, straw or something more natural, even ventilation might be better.


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## ShaneVBS (Aug 22, 2011)

cut a 3/4 hole out your inner cover on the top, put cover on so its pushed back enough to give the hole in inner cover some room to breath, ventilation complete. You shouldnt have condensation issues with proper ventilation.


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## kkettelhut (Mar 16, 2009)

Bear in mind that the two replies you have so far are from Florida and Virginia. Neither of which get the winters we get here in Maine. I have not used homasote in the past, but am doing so this year. I did put a stack of old newspapers on top of the inner cover with some shims to give the bees some room to make it to the upper exit and allow for ventilation. some hives I tried the "just use ventilation". Only lost one hive due to the chilliing from the condensation dripping down onto the cluster, it didn't have any of the absorbent material. Thats one to many in my book if there is a simple cheap effective solution. The homasote appears to be such, I have a fellow Beek that uses them very effectively. Thats not to say that straw, newspaper, shavings, etc... won't work but the Homasote is easier than building a special holder for said materials. The standard practice for using it is to cut it to the same size as your inner cover and dado a groove from your inner cover center hole to the notch in your inner cover notch up on inner cover, dado down on homasote, to give plenty of room for the bees and ventilation. I plan on putting a piece of foam board on top of mine to just give a bit more insulation which I can't see hurting anything. Finding the Homosote is hit and miss at the stores. Presently I know that the Home Depot in South Portland has it back near the insulation. The Honey Exchange on Stevens ave in Portland has pre made boards in 10 and 8 frame sizes for ten bucks and he is working up some for Nuc's. If your going to the State assoc meeting in Lewiston he is bringing some there. I don't know what they have at the place right down there in Lebanon where you are, but they probably have some too. Good luck K


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Maybe Mike Palmer will chime in with his use of foam on the covers in winter. Of course he is in northern VT. Not sure how different it is in Maine, but probably similar. 

I use a version where I put 1" foam boards on top of the telescoping cover to insulate and eliminate most condensation under the cover. This is in addition to an open notch on the inner cover for ventilation. I see no condensation in winter on dozens of hives. As a side note I replace the inner covers on my overwintered nucs with 2" foam board for wintering. In the 4 months that they are on, the bees in the nucs don't bother the foam like they might during the warmer months.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

There are basically two trains of thought on wintering in northern areas.
1st is ventilation to allow moisture to escape and the 2nd is to insulate to prevent condensation.

Personally I prefer insulating the cover as you are not having to balance too much ventilation with not enough. Too much and your bees starve because they burn far more stores trying to keep warm, too little and you get condensation and they freeze from being wet.

With insulation you are removing the opportunity for condensation to form over the cluster, all your ventilation is at the bottom board so you do not have the chimney effect cooling the cluster. Condensation is only able to form on the side of the boxes so you have no dripping water onto clusters. 

All you have to do is cut 2" foam board the size of your inner cover, cover the hole in the inner cover with 1/4 luan and place the foam on top, then place the outer cover on and weight down. In Maine I may even consider using 4" of foam.


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## PappyMAINEiac (Sep 23, 2006)

I use homasote boards for overwintering and kkettelhut is right about the "southern" comments. No offense guys, but we deal with hives buried in snow and sub-zero temps. Up here, I believe ventilation is secondary to moisture removal. I'm not saying that ventilation is not important, but you don't want to create too much of a chimney effect. The hive is designed to have a normal airflow and as long as it is unimpeded, you should be all set. 
The major causes for winter losses are starvation, mites, disease and ice. The bees can deal with a little moisture. But if that moisture accumulates at the top of the hive, the freezing night temps will turn it to icicles, which will extend down between the frames. If the ice touches the brood, the bees can not generate enough heat to keep the cluster warm and they will perish. The homasote board acts as a sponge by soaking up the moisture. I can tell you "it does work" but nothing is guaranteed in the bee world.
Rick cooper of "Bees n Me" in Richmond http://bees-n-me.com/ sells them all made. I think I paid $2.50 each for them. He is a full service shop and a great mentor.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I haven't ever used homasote, but like with any other pressed building material my first concern would be what glues and pesticides are leaching out of it when wet? Pretty much all pressed fiber boards are treated with a pesticide to prevent termite infestation, also they frequently contain Urea Formaldehyde based glues which are toxic. 

While these things may not kill your hives, they are not doing them any favors. Just something to keep in mind.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I will not be using homasote this year - and I have plenty of boards cut up and ready to use should my mind get changed.

After talking with Mike Palmer and others, here is what I am doing: reverse notched inner cover so that the notch is down and the bees can use it as an upper entrance; put duct tape over the hole in the now upside down inner cover; wrap the exterior of the hive up to but not including the inner cover with 15lb roofing felt (tar paper); extra tar paper is folded back on itself - not over the top; on top of the inner cover place a block of 2" Styrofoam insulation cut so as to fit flat on the inner cover; reduce entrance to smallest opening; place outer cover on top of insulation; wrap a strap around the entire hive. For straps I'm using webbing with plastic tighteners - like what used to be on back packing equipment in the 70s and 80s. Before wrapping I like to get the hive up to 140-150lbs by feeding 2:1 syrup in inverted paint cans directly on top of the frames in the upper box. I hope to have all the hives wrapped and ready for winter before hunting season. I am located in Jonesboro, Washington County.


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## rharlow (Mar 20, 2011)

Andrew, you make me feel more confident in my thoughts. I'm a first year beek, and in my studying, I saw a ventilated inner cover, that I subsequently made. I've made this for both my hives, and my nuc that I am overwintering. Essentially it is a 3" innercover with permanent opening to be used for upper entrance, about 1" wide on the nuc, and 2" on the 10 frame. The upper section of the cover has ventilation holes on 3 sides (excluding front), and is deep enough for placement of 2" foam inside cover. 

What concerned me, is that I went to a meeting, and it seemed that using homasote was the preferred way. Also, I has seen Mike Palmer use the foam in a video online, but wasn't sure if he was also using some form of absorbent. 

So, it sounds like the foam will prevent the condensation enough, such that absorbent material is not needed. Is there a way to tell mid-winter if the foam is working or if you've got icicles forming inside?


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## PappyMAINEiac (Sep 23, 2006)

bluegrass said:


> my first concern would be what glues and pesticides are leaching out of it when wet? Pretty much all pressed fiber boards are treated with a pesticide to prevent termite infestation.


The glue used is paraffin wax. The insecticide is less than 0.1% copper base pesticide. Available data from a honey bee acute toxicity study indicated that copper is practically nontoxic to honey bees.
I have used it with no noticeable problems. But who knows for sure???


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## markspillman (Jun 7, 2011)

I have read about making a "quilt box" and filling it with wood shavings. Make it 2 or 3 inches deep and staple canvas cloth on the bottom, drill 4 holes in the sides and place it under the inner cover. The shavings will soak up the moisture and will dry out during the day. I have not used this as this is my first year with bees, but intend on trying it. If you have a top entrance place shims under the quilt box for your entrance.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Pappymaineiac, I enjoyed your description of ventilation versus condensation. You talk about too much ventilation. How does a person know if there is too much ventilation? Would the relative area (square inches) of top entrance to bottom entrance have any bearing on that? The subject of ventilation versus insulation and the balance between it is hard to fathom. As usual in beekeeping we have people in different camps - even in the same area when it comes to this issue.


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## Duboisi (Oct 7, 2009)

Here in Norway, the standard equipment is (AFAIK) inner cover, then creasote board with foamboard on top.

BTW: The standard hives and foamboard are made from what's called "jackfoam", witch is a more compressed vertion of styrofoam.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

rharlow said:


> So, it sounds like the foam will prevent the condensation enough, such that absorbent material is not needed. Is there a way to tell mid-winter if the foam is working or if you've got icicles forming inside?


It can be hard to understand if you don't understand the physics behind it. 

If you fill a pot with water and place it on a hot stove you get water vapor dispersed into the air. (this represents the warm bees breathing in the hive.)

Now take a cookie sheet that has been chilled in the freezer and hold it over your pot and watch what happens. (this represents the roof of the hive)The difference in temperatures condenses the water vapor back into liquid and it drips back down to the pot.

Now place the same cookie sheet in the oven and warm it up then hold it over the pot. The water will not condense because the temp difference is less than the dew point.

The insulation prevents the warm air from escaping the hive and the cold air on the outside from cooling the inner cover to the dew point. You know if you have enough insulation the same way you know if a house has enough insulation. If the snow on the roof is melting, you need more insulation.


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## PAHunter62 (Jan 26, 2011)

I stumbled upon this page a while back. I plan on following this example for my two hives this winter:

http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php

I also plan on putting foam insulation board on top of the outer cover and weight it down Will help whether inside or out. Inside the box, I'll be using old wool blankets and cedar chips.

This appears to be a good option. I plan on allowing enough room between to top box frames and the bottom board insert to place patties, candy, sugar in case they use up their stores.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

What does a person's current residency have to do with understanding materials. I have lived North of you and in other countries that would make Maine like the tropics. 
Homasote is saturated with paraffin. Water-resistant materials do not readily absorb moisture. That is why the manufacturer uses paraffin. 
Insulation is good to reduce condensation. Choosing an insulating material that bees or other intruders will destroy or nest in (mice) is as smart as telling everyone living outside Maine they cannot be right.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Last winter I tilted my hives slightly foward in case of condensation, left sbb open and cut a notch in the inner covers with no insulation. Hives stayed dry and looked fine in the Spring.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Markspillman,
I use the quilt box. First ones I used burlap. Bees pulled at it. Went to a luan board, five 1 1/2 inch holes and covered with #8 mesh. Wood shavings, pine needles, and the pet bedding that has cedar chips. I've been happy with it. Can't advise for the Maine Beeks.


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## PappyMAINEiac (Sep 23, 2006)

First let me explain my winter set-up. My hives are set up with airflow all around them. I run 2 deep brood boxes (2 deep and 1 med next year) with a 5/8" hole drilled to the right of the hand grabs on all brood boxes. I reduce the entrance to the smallest setting, I put the homasote board with groove side down against inner cover and I wrap with roofing felt then then cut the two, 5/8" holes that are drilled. I pull outer cover all the way forward to insure a clear upper vent hole and top it with a styrofoam board and 2 bricks on top of that. I keep snow and ice clear on all vents and entrances throughout the winter.


Adrian Quiney WI said:


> How does a person know if there is too much ventilation?


 IMO you don't need any more than this. As long as ALL vent holes are open, you will have a light ventilation that keeps air moving when the wind blows outside and from convection within the hive.


Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Would the relative area (square inches) of top entrance to bottom entrance have any bearing on that?


 Yes. As with a wood stove the more you open the Damper (lower entrance), and the flue (top vent) the hotter the fire. (more draft going over the cluster). But it is controlled by the balancing the damper or lower entrance with the flue or upper vent. So having vents or quilt boxes and such are fine and work well as long as bottom entrance is controlled. 


Adrian Quiney WI said:


> The subject of ventilation versus insulation and the balance between it is hard to fathom.


 In the North we need both. Just the heating and cooling cycles in a 24 hr period creates condensation that needs to be controlled (by ventilation), and dealt with (by absorbing with homasote boards or quilt boxes) the absorbing system, whatever you use, is our Insurance card. Icicles will not form on absorbent boards easily. A skim of ice will form on the board overnight but it will thaw and get absorbed the next time it gets above 32Deg.


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## PappyMAINEiac (Sep 23, 2006)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> What does a person's current residency have to do with understanding materials. I have lived North of you and in other countries that would make Maine like the tropics.
> Homasote is saturated with paraffin. Water-resistant materials do not readily absorb moisture. That is why the manufacturer uses paraffin.
> Insulation is good to reduce condensation. Choosing an insulating material that bees or other intruders will destroy or nest in (mice) is as smart as telling everyone living outside Maine they cannot be right.


 Wax is used as a binder NOT for water resistance. Pour some water on homasote, and at first it will roll off. But then it turns a dark color and the water disappears ... hmmmmm it looks like its absorbing to me?? Homasote is mainly used for sound damping, not insulating. IMO quilt boxes do work better, but given the time and cost of making several of them, the board makes more sense to me! 
I too have been stationed around the world and I can not think of anywhere, apart from the arctics, that would make a Maine winter feel like the tropics!! 
I have never had or heard of mice destroying the boards. They would have a very hard time even getting to it! Have you ever even had to overwinter a colony in a snowy, wet and freezing environment? It looks as though all your beekeeping has been done in the deep south where you don't even have any experience with these matters.


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