# Resilient Beekeeping



## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Wish I had time to watch more of these videos. I always hope someone posts a synopsis.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I was excited to watch it, but it was a quick let down

lots of fallacies here said or implied

using treatments breeds weak bees- only if you use poor selection of breeder queens

Using treatments shorts out natural selection- there is nothing natural about live stock and the human selection of them

If you stop using treatment you bees will "adapt"- They will live or die, mostly die (in most but not all places) and when they do they are danger to resticant hives and feral bees.

your use of chemicals will lead to mite resistance- It matters little what "you" or even all the hobbyists in the state do, what maters is what the large operations that control the vast majority of hives do..

AC has adapted so AM will do in time- Mabey, but far form a given... 99.99% of all species have gone extecient, "balance" in nature is an artifact of our short obversion window. What they miss is AC sucks for beekeepers (ecomnic use) and in many places AC is treated, if they aren't about 50% of them per year abscond.. in nature its a great survival mechanize to leave all the mites in the brood and run off, but to the beekeeper an empty box form an abscond is the same as an empty box form a dead out.

Mites will adapt to chemicals and become resistance but won't adapt to become resistance to the bees resistance to them- Silly. And That's really the elephant in the room.. You trade one tread mill for a selection and breeding one.. With out it the bees will quickly lose there traits over a few generations. But what makes it scary is the chance of a stronger and more resticant bee selecting for stronger mites that then spread. and or you have to buy this "super bee" or treat even more do to the stronger mites.

a hive that overwintered one year is "survivor stock"- In most cases its just lucky

A hive that has lived a year (or 2) is breeding stock- The binary alive/dead is no were near strong enough selection pressure, if it was this would have been solved decades ago 
Local bees have become adapted- Not relay they were selected to perform in a local area...or some one just split a year old hive and called them "local survivor stock" witch is no better in many cases then what's coming in.... Local bees(in all the studies) means bees from a local breeding program, not a split form some hive that was imported last year and just didn't die, that mated in the hobiest soup with other hives just just didn't die there 1st year. 

Catching swarms=sustainability-doesn't matter if they are bought or caught.... importing replacement bees to your operation is importing replacement bees

A brood beak is "good" as it sets back the mites- sort of? A beekeeper induced brood break has the same evolutionally draw backs of other treatments (chemical or other wise) they they are suggesting exist, , ie "it props up weak stock"

you (as a hobbie beekeper) making a few splits can contribute to the gene pool- laughably indeed.. yes on a land scape scale if every one is doing it there is an impact.

swarms are "local bees"-more likely they are just last years imported package queens

Yes make you own replacements when its easy to make bees and over winter them as nucs so you have them ready in the spring after winter losses, sure use local stock if its there, become a bee producer instead of consumer!! all great things, but they gloss over it and fill peoples heads with the (pushed by TF gurus) falices that cause beekeepers to make what I fee are poor management disstions.

There is need to stop using "adapt" and "natural selection" as a euphemisms for genetic culling (massive losses) and suggesting that the unproven "let them die and split what lives" method will likely yield postive results, espicaly at the hobiest level and thier small sample size of hives to work form. 

Yes It seems to have worked for a few, but the results (and the resulting genetics from the far and few between successes) haven't been exportable to others.

yet time and time again we see data driven human selection be successful ie Dan Weaver, Randy Oliver, John Kefus, Cory Stevens, Adam Finstine, USDA(Russtian, VSH, POLINE), the various MMB lines of bees from Purdue/Hartland/etc programs, John Harbo, Joe Latshaw, etc.. The list goes on and on of successful TF/mite resticant keepers who make imperical breeding choices and controal there mateing


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> Yes It seems to have worked for a few, but the results (and the resulting genetics from the far and few between successes) haven't been exportable to others.


I think the main takeaway in my view is that genetic transformation is taking place on the landscape scale.

Yes, this is only applicable in areas where gene flow is not in continual upheaval - but is hopefully a sign that better days are ahead...


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Litsinger said:


> I think the main takeaway in my view is that genetic transformation is taking place on the landscape scale.


Maybe I missed it, what point in the video did they share that data? for the most part all I saw was a rehash of the failed TF Guru playbook of 10 and 20 years ago.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> Maybe I missed it, what point in the video did they share that data?


As Randy Oliver would say, I see this as another example of 'ground truthing'.

Whether it is the work and success of the Heartland Honey Bee Breeder's Association, the genetic results from Dr. Harpur's lab or the increased success I see of hiving swarms and managing without treatments popping-up all over the state, there is an accumulating body of information suggesting a transformation is occuring on the landscape scale.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Litsinger said:


> there is an accumulating body of information suggesting a transformation is occurring on the landscape scale.


 but what does that have to do with the video and its outdate messages ?
do you feel I am off bace here and the landscape shift is due the methods the video advocates?
or is is due to the large scale propagation and distubution of improved genetics in the area


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> or is is due to the large scale propagation and distubution of improved genetics in the area


I _think_ it is something like this - less to do with what we're doing, and more to do with what Mother Nature is doing:



Litsinger said:


> what is the backyard beekeeper to do?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Litsinger said:


> more to do with what Mother Nature is doing:


The feral chewing studys seem to point there do they?

on the mother nature subject.... you might enjoy this one and its very interring locaton








Unprecedented Density and Persistence of Feral Honey Bees in Urban Environments of a Large SE-European City (Belgrade, Serbia)


The western honey bee, a pollinator species that is essential for modern agriculture and food production sustainability, is under various anthropogenic pressures. In the last few decades, these have led to serious worldwide problems concerning the health ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> The feral chewing studys seem to point there do they?
> 
> on the mother nature subject.... you might enjoy this one and its very interring locaton
> 
> ...


Some months ago, we were discussing exactly this report from Serbia.
Which basically confirms the same - IF left alone, the urban/suburban/industrial setups often provide good habitat for the bees. But only IF left alone - usually they are discovered and removed.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> Some months ago, we were discussing exactly this report from Serbia.


Here's the link for those interested:



Litsinger said:


> I thought of this thread as I read the following study evaluating feral colonies in Belgrade, courtesy of Terry Combs:


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

lol
looks like I am just comeing up for air after mounths of 70+hour weeks


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> looks like I am just comeing up for air after mounths of 70+hour weeks


Glad to have you back- we've all been there...


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