# CO2 levels with Indoor Wintering Honeybees



## sakhoney

Ian - what temp do ya'll try to maintain in that shed


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## Ian

4 degrees C


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## beepro

Somewhere around 40F during the winter time.
Is it possible to connect the fans with the CO2 monitoring device to turn
them on automatically? I wonder if there is such a device exist or any other
method to monitor the CO2 level better.


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## Ian

CO2 module to control an exhaust fan to maintain levels to a set point . One guy has his set to 2500ppm


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## wildbranch2007

your lucky your not south of the border, down here the EPA would be after you for contributing green house gases to global warming.


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## johnbeejohn

Look up co2 monitors for grow rooms might be able to use them to ur advantage


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## Ian

Thx I'll look into that


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## JSL

A slightly different animal, but kept at similar densities to honey bees in some commercial operations...
https://www.poultryventilation.com/sites/default/files/tips/2012/vol24n2.pdf


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## Ian

Good stuff Joe


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## Allen Martens

CO2 levels inside the cluster run as high as 60000 ppm and 40000 ppm just outside the cluster. Higher levels of CO2 appear to help bees winter more efficiently and lengthen life spans in winter. 

Anecdotally, I feel like the hives getting the most direct blast of air from my intakes do the best making it through winter.


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## Ian

Allen that is totally and completely contrary to everything that had been passed on to me , lol, I love it ha


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## Adrian Quiney WI

I had not heard that overwintering bees kept CO2 levels high and was going to ask if there was research on the subject I could read. I googled it and found this abstract of a small experiment that correlated higher CO2 levels with higher mite mortality. As it is only an abstract I couldn't dig into the nitty-gritty, but I thought it was worth posting nonetheless.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26453704


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## Allen Martens

Other than Randy Oliver's article the rest are only abstracts as well

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/old-bees-cold-bees-no-bees-part-1/

https://www.researchgate.net/public...gulation_in_honey-bee_Apis_mellifera_colonies

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ance_termination_and_postdiapause_development


I've never been too concerned about CO2 levels in winter. The bees winter in very confined spaces like trees and walls in nature and snowdrifts outside. Far less ventilation than I provide. There may be an optimal level for longevity and sugar consumption that would be good to know. I wouldn't doubt that the optimal CO2 levels for winter are much higher than the levels most people shoot for. Haven't found many studies in this area.


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian, There was a guy trying to kill the mites with CO2 levels in indoor wintering.


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## JRG13

I like HOBO stuff for monitoring, I know they make a C02 monitor with a readout, but it's not that cheap, but not too pricey either.


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## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ian, There was a guy trying to kill the mites with CO2 levels in indoor wintering.


Ya they did work up here on that in the sheds,higher c02 levels promoted grooming while stored away in the winter shed,... I was quite a while ago, I'll have to look at Adrian's link when I get a chance


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## JRG13

Anyone every try during the summer? Say knock a colony out for a minute or two and see how many mites fall off through a SBB or something?


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## Ian

You'd be a braver man than I 
That might end up with a mass of dead wet bees


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## JRG13

You could probably do it in the morning safely. If done properly, they should all revive pretty quickly.


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## JRG13

Not that it would be a viable treatment, just wondering if anyone attempted it to see if they could get a good mite knock down.


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## JSL

JRG13 said:


> Not that it would be a viable treatment, just wondering if anyone attempted it to see if they could get a good mite knock down.


There are a couple of issues with this... CO2 does not appear to be lethal to the mites it just anesthetizes them just like the bees. It is a gentle process were the bees fall to lowest point point allowed. Mites still hang on pretty well although some are dislodged. CO2 tends to cause bees to regurgitate their crop contents. A hot mass of sticky bees is a pretty sure disaster, but I guess good mite control too. All depends on your standards.


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## pleasantvalley

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> I had not heard that overwintering bees kept CO2 levels high and was going to ask if there was research on the subject I could read. I googled it and found this abstract of a small experiment that correlated higher CO2 levels with higher mite mortality. As it is only an abstract I couldn't dig into the nitty-gritty, but I thought it was worth posting nonetheless.
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26453704


Here are the full papers Adrian & Allen. 
1. http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=21204589157812732587
2. http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=60057150347930193285
3. http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=05858068185874882793


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## Ian

A neat trick;
to observe the effect of air mixing within the winter room, place a lit smoker in the corner and watch the smoke stir into the room. 
And if it's not, ramp up the ceiling fans


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## Sadler91

I have heard there are some people out west experimenting with custom barns that have the capability of vaporizing oxalic acid throughout the whole barn. Any word on whether this is true or not? Do you think its possible?


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## beepro

CO2 is good for veggies production inside a grow room. Perhaps you can 
figure out a way to harvest some to channel into your grow room for plants and
veggies production during the winter time. Find a way to vent the CO2 into the growing
chamber. Which veggies crops will favor a high to moderate CO2 level?


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## Ian

Sadler91 said:


> I have heard there are some people out west experimenting with custom barns that have the capability of vaporizing oxalic acid throughout the whole barn. Any word on whether this is true or not? Do you think its possible?


Yikes, 
How's that even possible?
Treatment individually, maybe.. dangerous but possible. Shed treatment, not likely.
Guys up here have tried with Formic. Is that what your thinking of?


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## Allen Martens

Thanks PV

The Van Nerum and Buelens paper is truly fascinating. 

The last point in the discussion "Practical apicultural applications of the ﬁndings are not available as yet, but e.g. wintering under artiﬁcial hypoxia is no longer an unrealistic prospect." and point 10 "As low airﬂow for gas analysis is a poor heat transporter, but it is a draught and bees abhor this. It destroys the insulating still-air situation and might hypoxia." makes me wonder if there would be a benefit in leaving entrance reducers on for winter; especially if the ambient RH levels in the wintering room are low and condensation in the hive is not a problem as a result.

I think many of the indoor wintering recommendations as based upon "common sense" but have minimal scientific validity.


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## Allen Martens

I don't see OAV working in a wintering room either. The OA would sublimate back to solid form before it entered the hive I would think. Repeated doses OA over a period of time would probably result in corrosion any metal and concrete. Formic would work better but would also be extremely corrosive. I can't see either being practical.


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## Ian

Allen Martens said:


> Thanks PV
> 
> The Van Nerum and Buelens paper is truly fascinating.
> 
> The last point in the discussion "Practical apicultural applications of the ﬁndings are not available as yet, but e.g. wintering under artiﬁcial hypoxia is no longer an unrealistic prospect." and point 10 "As low airﬂow for gas analysis is a poor heat transporter, but it is a draught and bees abhor this. It destroys the insulating still-air situation and might hypoxia." makes me wonder if there would be a benefit in leaving entrance reducers on for winter; especially if the ambient RH levels in the wintering room are low and condensation in the hive is not a problem as a result.
> 
> I think many of the indoor wintering recommendations as based upon "common sense" but have minimal scientific validity.


I've tried wintering with the reducers in place but there was just too much condensation issues inside the hives because of the reduced hive air exchange. Also my hives have no upper entrance so there is no updraft to expel excess humidity. 
RH is a tricky balance. Mild weather systems ramp humidity up, then cold dry air systems plumit. I think too dry is better than wet


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## Ian

It's probably one factor why wintered hives in yard fulls of snow faired better because that snow cover would help minimize disturbances And protected that CO2 cluster shield


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## McBee7

I have a small indoor wintering shed off of the back of my garage. There are 13 nuc hives in there with a fan to circulate the air which is maintained at 40 deg F. There is also a fan that fources air from my garage into the bee shed 4 times a day for 15 minutes. The nucs have quilt box tops to allow air in the pressureized shed (when the garage air is fourced into the bee shed) to reverse flow through the hives and out tthe landing boards which are open to the outside through the wall...This seems to work well as springtime populations are very good and ready tto rip in early april. The only drawback is that during the winter when the hives are blowing air out the entrances when the shed is pressurized the bees think it's 40 F outside and go for a cleansing flight, to their demise BUT this is offset by the fact that the qqueen is also more active and there is no shortage of bees (young)......I don't know what the co2 levels are but am now curous to know and may monitor it next winter...

==McBee7==


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## Keith Jarrett

CO2 LEVELS @6%, temps @ 40, mite kill rate 90%.


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## Nick Noyes

Keith Jarrett said:


> CO2 LEVELS @6%, temps @ 40, mite kill rate 90%.


I think WSU proved that theory wrong.


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## swarm_trapper

I just bought this one for my small room I am experimenting with; I have 200 hives in and with the Fans only idling the last two weeks, the levels are sitting at 1200PPM
http://www.co2meter.com/collections/portable/products/psense-portable-co2-meter


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## Keith Jarrett

Nick Noyes said:


> I think WSU proved that theory wrong.


Nick, there's a guy just north of me wanting to put up a building( bee storage) 
with this in mind, he mention guys that are having these results.


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## JRG13

Who stole the bus from atop Keith??


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## Ian

I think Keith is typing in his sleep again.


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## Nick Noyes

It was my understanding that the study used to get a 90% mite drop with co2 also used tweezers to pull mites off bees before test to get an accurate count of mites before trial.
If my memory is correct WSU did see 40% drops without tweezer method.
So there are some benifits to raised levels of co2 however tweezers are the silver bullet.


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## Ian

What was the CO2 ppm to achieve those results and under what timeline?


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## JRG13

Anyone have the numbers for typical winter ppm in a hive that's clustered? Typical levels at ground level are 300-400ppm or 0.03%.


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## Ian

I'm hearing lots of sheds sitting at 1500-2000 ppm through this cold weather low air exchange


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## sjj

JRG13 said:


> Anyone have the numbers for typical winter ppm in a hive that's clustered? Typical levels at ground level are 300-400ppm or 0.03%.


As you know, typical Carbon Dioxide levels in outdoor air near ground level are 0.03-0.04%, 
of the atmosphere. 

In the center of the calm winter cluster they are on average at 5% level. Some authors write simply 3-4% (easier to remember).


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## 67630

Its possible your short 1 zero
1000 ppm = .01% so that means if you have a 6% co2 level that converts to 60,000 ppm
indoor shed co2 levels in my building vary between 700 and 1200 ppm, thats a long way from 5 or 6%.


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## sjj

One ppm means one in a million or 10^-6

1ppm = 10^-6 = 10^-2 * 10^-4 

1ppm = 1% * 10^-4
1% = 1ppm * 10^4

(arithmetical operators as in MS Excel)


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## Ian

Why not just leave the discussion at ppm, as that is what most every measurement device reads it in
Unless you want to talk in *10^4


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## 67630

Exactly, thanks Ian. Unless specified and in the post and it wasnt, it appears there was an error. Was simply clarifying.


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## Eduardo Gomes

Ian said:


> 4 degrees C


Hi Ian. I read somewhere that the cluster consumes less and is more quiet between -1ºC and + 4ºC. Why do you prefer to have a temperature at the upper limit and not at lower limit?


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## Ian

Some also maintain their temps at 8C
I find less condensation issues when kept further away from freezing. At 8 the hives get a bit more active, at 0 I start seeing more dripping from the entrances. I have no upper entrance in my hives indoors sealed with an insulated cover which I use to help maintain more humidity within the nest, so when the room temp is cooler condensation becomes an issue


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## Eduardo Gomes

> when the room temp is cooler condensation becomes an issue

I knew there had to be a good reason for you to do as you do. Now I understand what it is.


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## pleasantvalley

Additional papers on CO2 and wintering from Dr. RASSOL BAHREINI, recently hired in Alberta at the CDC lab. These came from the presentation he made at the Alberta IPM conference today. If he will send his presentation, I will post it.
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=10303575855606267000
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=70538432311561797684


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## Ian

Your attachments will not open
Can you cut and paste the discussion?


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## B&E

I'll be shocked if I got this picture to work. I have not had luck with uploading files to this site.


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## Ian

Nice system


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## Ian

I bought a CO2 monitor, Ive been playing around with it. Low air exhange the shed holds at 2500 ppm, high air exchange holds around 1200 ppm. I turned off the fans for 3 hrs and the levels increased to 8500ppm. I also found CO2 levels uptop outside the hive cluster read over 10,000 ppm, as high as my device would read. Study from Kozak at the UofM here as shown mid winter cluster CO2 concentrations as high as 40,000 ppm. 

I have using this CO2 device out of curiosity. The cluster CO2 level will hold high until anytype of minor disturbance, then it drops to roughly ambient shed levels. It makes me wonder how important it is not to disturb the shed while the bees are inside. If the CO2 envelop is being used to help the bees endure the extended time, I wonder how much detrement I cause simply by entering the shed and distrupting the hives while sweeping the floor...or snooping on their condition. 

As soon as that cluster simply would shutter, the CO2 levels dropped immediately


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## oldsap

I know it is off the topic slightly, but what are the winter survival rates of those who do over winter indoors? Ours are outside in the cold and the 4 frame stacked nucs this winter seem to have an slight edge over the double deeps this year. Last year 50 percent survival was among the best in the area. Northwest lower Michigan. Lot of winter left yet. But I am thinking of indoor wintering and am in need of some valid stats.


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## Ian

Id recommend indoor wintering here in Manitoba, but out in Michigan, you'd need to do some figuring.


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## Bill Davis

Ian- what is your survival rate year to year


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## wildbranch2007

Ian hasn't been on since Last Activity 03-20-2019 08:50 if you want an answer I would go try and ask him on his web site


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