# Experiment 2012/13 - Acquiring drawn comb



## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

The beginning beekeeper wants to sample his honey in the first year. In his second year, he wants to avoid swarming and get good honey production from his overwintered hive. Lofty objectives. In some areas of the country, it can be done without much effort or cost, but in most areas Mother Nature does not provide enough forage to make it easy. The honeybee colony has limits on their capabilities, and those limits are intensely affected by forage availability.

Having empty, drawn comb simplifies swarm prevention and adds motivation for increased honey production. Both objectives are more easily met by simply having sufficient drawn comb inventory.

The intent of this experiment is to get some extra comb drawn in the first year. The concept adds some costs to the first year, but pays dividends in the second year. Be aware that this approach is a drastic shift away from conventional thinking. We will be combining two strong starter colonies in mid summer. In other words, forfeiting a strong colony. Radical! Hear me out, please.

Two packages were purchased towards the end of our normal "main flow." The purchase of 2 starters is normally recommended for the beginning beekeeper for the benefits of comparison and support of weaker of the two. As it turned out, one colony was much slower developing than the other.

A late start was deliberate. We wanted to worst-case this demonstration so that it would be repeatable almost anywhere in the country. And worst case it was. We spent the price of another package on sugar to feed the two through the summer doldrums and through the combined colony fall preps. In the early going, we fed just enough to keep them going - a quart of 1 to 1 on average, every 3 days. As they grew, the amount increased steadily to a gallon, each, per week. Changed feeding methods three times.

Target date for combining the two was Sept. 1. Other priorities delayed that for two weeks. Sept.1 was selected because fall brood nest reduction starts about the end of Sept. and the delay of 2 weeks was not significant.

Now, for the radical stuff:
One package was hived in 3 shallow supers of foundation and the other in a shallow and a deep of foundation - deep at the bottom. Both colonies started drawing comb in the shallow at the top of both configurations, as expected. The colony in 3 shallows expanded laterally across the top shallow, filling that box, before expanding downward into the next lower shallow. They did the same thing at the next lower level. Meanwhile, the colony with a single shallow only drew a few frames in their shallow at the top before starting drawing frames below in the deep.

Both colonies superseded their queen early in their growth. The deep unit opted to SS first and did not have much brood. The all-shallow unit waited until thay had substantial capped brood for replacement bees. So, the all-shallow unit got ahead of the deep unit and the deep unit never caught up in strength. When they were combined, the deep unit still had mostly frames of foundation in their top shallow outside of those used initially when hived. A few frames of honey where they started. Fortunately, the deep was mostly drawn, with good brood.

The combine was assembled with the deep of brood on the bottom, a shallow and a half of brood from the all-shallow unit (other half - capped Domino honey), The unfinished super from the top of the deep unit, and two full shallows of capped Domino at the top. Oops, neglected to mention that a fourth super had been added to the all-shallow unit in late summer. At the time of combining, that unit had four shallows - 2 brood and 2 drawn and capped. The stack combined was a deep and 5 shallows, filled on a work day with bees.

Too many bees and too much brood for mid Sept. in this area. Upped the syrup feeding to a gallon every 3 days to encourage backfilling of the broodnest through early Oct. The foragers were bringing both nectar and pollen on a small scale. If they were interested in protein supplement, it was replaced. Periodic checks through Oct. showed that they were indeed backing the broodnest down to the deep. And foraging continued through Nov. and early Dec. (unusual season) We slacked off on feeding in mid Oct to about a gallon a week into early Nov. when it was stopped completely.

The weekend before Christmas, we finally had a couple of nights below freezing. Early in the morning, three supers of capped Domino was removed from the top gently to be extracted between now and Feb. The cluster is a little oversized, but is located below two full supers and we expect them to winter well. All the answers will not be available until April, but we should have enough drawn comb to get real production in 2013.

Worst-casing this demonstration created a lot of feed jockying that the beginner would not be prepared to cope with or implement. Most of that extra cost and effort would be offset by starting two colonies early enough to have them grow on the full spring flow. At combine time he could pilfer a few frames of honey for his own use.

It also would not be necessary to sacrifice a colony at combining time. We pinched a queen that we considered less than desirable. If two normally developed colonies were to be combined, a nuc could be generated in the process for overwintering.

All in all, a fun project to keep me out of the pubs. Do with it what you will.

Walt


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

What date did you hive them and how many lbs. of bees?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Jim,
3 lb packages hived May 9. Our season was almost exactly 3 weeks early. That would be equivalent to about June 1st. It's sometimes over here by that time.
Walt


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Walt, I don't think it is at all out of line to first focus on building a colony capable of doing what we ask a colony to do. in some respect this is exactly what happens when a queen rearer makes a cell builder colony. Why not put some attention to this issue in regard to asking a colony to make honey as well. I have already looked at a few related management methods where more attention is given to preparing the colony to work rather than just setting back and seeing what a colony can produce.

One colony with a harvest is better than two with no harvest.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Interesting, good way to get comb built fast.


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## mtndewluvr (Oct 28, 2012)

I started off with one hive earlier this year, and acquired 2 swarms (mid-June) and made a split about the same time. Because I was told I probably wouldn't get much honey the first year, I concentrated more on trying to acquire additional drawn comb. The swarms helped, as building comb is what they like to do, and the split turned out to be mostly just a bad idea (yet, a learning experience)...I'll make sure I don't spread out what I have too thin this year. I am overwintering just 2 hives after combining.

This year I have been bitten by the bait hive bug, so my intentions for 2013 are to use swarms and splits to help build up 1 or 2 strong honey hives at my house, expand to put 1 or 2 more starter hives out at another site, and try to overwinter a couple 5-frame nucs this year that I'll make up around July to be used for backup. With that being said, I hope to be able to come away with a good amount of comb in preparation for 2014, where I don't plan on any more expansion.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I wonder how this approach would compare with the comb production of the two colonies kept in smaller spaces as nucs, fed, and having resources removed to keep them from swarming...


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

This thread had a half-life of about 5 hours. Am retrieving it from page 5 of the running list.
Roland went off line to comment. He need not to have done that to present his position. His northern perspective is known to me. His comment was to the effect that he can get production from less than a 3 pound package in the first year. 

Regionality at work. In northerly areas, where production is gained in the summer, it's a different ball game from the southeast. Should I mention that there is much more area in the southeast than the area of the northeast that endures long, cold winters?

In tough winter areas, the forage season is compressed into much less time. The spring flow and the fall flow almost meet in the middle. If we go far enough north, the flows can overlap in mid summer. The colony motivated by space to fill just chugs along through mid summer. There is little colony incentive to reduce brood volume until fall.

In my area, the brood volume starts decreasing in May, and by July is down to the replacement bee level of less than a deep of brood. Field nectar falls to a point of not encouraging further overhead storage of honey in the first half of June. They stay in this standby mode until the fall flow stars in late August. Because it takes about a month to build strength to the point of adding honey, we seldom get much fall honey. Most seasons - none. It is significant to note that our production season is about 6 weeks, starting May 1. (In a good year)

So a starter colony, started in early April, doing well, barely gets established before the spring flow trails off. Typically, they must be fed to get them through the mid summer doldrums. Any honey production is very unlikely.

Flow timing accounts for the difference between the northern and southern perspective.

Walt


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Interesting thread Walt, I enjoyed reading about the different stages of development, I started five hives this year using the resources of one hive which swarmed on me. To begin, from the mother hive I removed two frames, one of which had a swarm cell and I started a two frame nuc, then due to lack of good judgement on my part the mother hive issued four swarms, one of which I lost. I caught three of them and hived these little one pound swarms. Having an extra queen from a 1/4 pound cutout I pulled two more frames from the mother hive and started yet another hive. replacing the four frames in the mother hive with foundation I was now ready to grow these six hives. I fed them with 2 EA. 1 quart frame top home built Collens type feeders beginning in May and ending mid October, a lot of Domino honey and a lot of money lol.

Well to make a long story short they all did well and each of them went into winter with two fully drawn deeps and the top deep filled and capped with Domino/wildflower honey blend. This took a lot of frame manipulation to ensure they were all being drawn correctly and not lop sided, checkerboarding and comb trimming helped a great deal with this, balancing hive strengths by moving brood from one hive to another was important as well. These hives will be ready for the spring flow if they survive the winter ok.

I will be watching to see how your hive does this spring, thanks for allowing us to be a part of your ongoing efforts to try something a little different.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Why is the southeast so poor in nectar source when their growing season is much longer? Rainfall?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

walt, I am getting a better understanding of your conditions. 

When is your ussual dandelion bloom? 

Can you provide an estimate of the average honey crop in your area? 

Did I ever reply with the results of replacing all of the brood chamber(10 frames) with foundation?

Crazy Roland


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## UTvolshype (Nov 26, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Why is the southeast so poor in nectar source when their growing season is much longer? Rainfall?


In eastern Tn, my honey flow of stored extractable honey starts with the Tulip Poplar (mid-April) and runs through June with Sumac/Clover. I extract over July 4 weekend. If I wanted to move my bees up on the Cumberland Plateau which is a short 20 mile drive, I could get another month of honey production with sourwood if the weather is right with good rainfall through out July. It's all dependent on rainfall for mid to late summer honey flow.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Walt, thanks for sharing that info. 

If your season is that short, I suppose feeding is your only option to build comb unless you have stores to give them. I'd prefer not to feed unless they are starving or won't survive the winter with the stores they have.



Roland said:


> Did I ever reply with the results of replacing all of the brood chamber(10 frames) with foundation?


Roland, I would love to know what happened.

Matthew Davey


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Roland,
First off, dandelion is an almost inconsequantial source here. It peaks about early apple bloom. Our bees have already committed to swarming by starting swarm cells by that time. Our bees work tree sources in the swarm prep period. Redbud is normally used for backfilling. Note that redbud can tolerate light freezes.

Glad you gave me a reason to mention our average honey crop. Dr. John Skinner of U. of Tenn reports that TN is a 50 to 70 lb area. Early in my efforts, when taking no steps to avoid swarming, that's about what my yeild was. Good reason for that. If you let the colony decrease the brood volume by backfilling in swarm preps, You don't get that brood volume back for the rest of the season. In fact, the brood volume continues to decrease through the summer. But backfilling starts in March. So, you have the whole season with reduced brood/population. The honey you get in the supers is limited to the safety margin between what the colony CAN do and what they MUST do for colony survival.

The loss of honey production of the swarmed colony is normally attributed to the loss of bees to the swarm. That's not the real reason. They could easily make up the loss of population in a single brood cycle. The real reason is the permenent loss of brood volume to swarm prep backfilling and subsequent reduction through the spring flow.

With checkerboarding, our production is roughly doubled. The side effects of CB are possibly more importent that swarm prevention alone. Not only does the broodnest not contract with backfilling in swarm preps but the brood volume continues to expand for another month. Brood volumes increasing up to the equivalent of 2 to 3 deeps of brood. Some pacesetters make 200 lbs.
More bees make more honey.

Don't remember a word picture of a full box of foundation below the excluder. Queen down there by herself?

Reminds me: Perhaps the question was poorly worded, but didn't get exactly the answer that I wanted. I wanted to know if they would draw foundation in the broodnest before the all-over waxmaking of main flow. If your system causes early wax making in the broodnest, you might not see the main flow as a sudden and general all-over wax making capability.

Walt


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Why is the southeast so poor in nectar source when their growing season is much longer? Rainfall?


ace, i think what walt was describing is that in our area, the flow is bimodal, i.e. a strong spring flow, followed by a summer dearth, followed by a fall flow.

this is in contrast to areas that have more of an overlapping and consistent flow.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> ace, i think what walt was describing is that in our area, the flow is bimodal, i.e. a strong spring flow, followed by a summer dearth, followed by a fall flow.


Yes it sounds dire. If you are going to harvest honey it can only happen in the spring and then you are forced to feed until almost spring again.
If that is the case Mark's plan makes a lot more sense to me now. If you are forced to feed you might as well move the hives to the south where it can be done easily. And then bring them back in the spring to cash in on the honey flows.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

interestingly, i haven't fed through the summer dearths so far, and still had honey to harvest in the fall. i was surprised how little of their stores they had to use to make it through the dearth.

i had mentioned not wanting to feed for dietary reasons, but also to let the bees respond more naturally by brooding up and down in response to upcoming increases and decreases in forage availibility.

my first three falls, i fed after harvesting. but this fall, i decided not to feed. i weighed my hives on november 11th, and again on december 31st. i'm amazed at how little weight was lost between those dates. (although we have had a few warm spells and they got to forage some).


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

if i am understanding the purpose of walt's experiment, it is to see if he can get enough comb built in the first year by feeding to have enough for checkerboarding and supering with comb in the second year.

i think the goal is to have a hive that looks like this:

View attachment 3882


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Very nice documentation Walt, so bottom line was: 2 packages started on foundation, 5 shallows, 1 deep of drawn. 
WWW looks like 1 hive (assume double deep, overwintered?) to 5 double deeps. Assuming two deeps drawn initially and all foundation (or was it drawn?) For 8 deeps of foundation. 
My plum flow starts first at mid-March (about a full month ahead of crab apples and early Gravenstien apples), ending in blackberry (end of June / beginning July for my elevation). Little or nothing after that.
I am looking to build and draw shallows so good thread.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I believe that our main flows are of similar lengths, and the average poundage, although higher, reasonably similar. The first serious pollen is dandelion mid April, which must hold them until the Sweet clovers start in late June. First extraction averages July fourth, with most of the flow over by mid August. That is NORMAL, which has not occurred in a while. The target to hit is peak populations by the last week in June. How much different are we(other than timing)?

As to the foundation, before the main flow, two hives (single deep, excluder, and deep supers) each had the queen "walked in the front door" after the brood chamber was "hung up". With similar populations, one hive started to draw the foundation as needed for the queen, only slowing them down slightly(compared to other hives in the yard). The other hive totally ignored the foundation, nearly abandoned the queen, and only drew it out when supers filled and left them no other place to work, and caught up in the end. Conclusions??? Don't try to guess what the bees do, they will ALL make a fool of you. 

I guess my point is that there is more that can be done besides swarm prevention. Some how in the last 70 years, the focus has shifted away from what you can do on a routine basis to help the bees beyond not swarming. The question still remains, is our added effort financially viable. 

Crazy Roland
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

minz, I started with one overwintered hive having 2 deeps, the other 5 double deep hives (10 deep boxes) were completely drawn from foundation, ending the season with 6 double deep hives, all with fully capped stores in their upper box's.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Walt, it has taken me some amount of time to understand the methods that you use and why you use them, it has been a mystery to me until today, I hope it's not because I am dense but now I can see why your methods work. Your seasons and forage and also the way your bees react to them is very similar to mine, where I live we are just a little bit behind you but not by much. I really thank you for taking the time to explain your beekeeping techniques, I have become a better beekeeper as a result.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

No comments on the pic provided by squarepeg? Am disappointed. Thought at least a few remarks were forthcoming on fake photography. 
The 2 units were at home in TN. The inset was a colony taken to MD. Was spending half time in MD that season, seeing to the care of my mother suffering from dementia. Took that hive up there to tinker with while there. Not that it matters, but the season there is delayed about 10 days from mine here.

mins,
They both were started on all foundation, but when the unit with the deep bogged down on growth, we did add a frame of brood from a developed colony (twice) to get them going again. With the boost, the colony drew the rest of the frames in the deep. I know - we cheated a little on the concept we were demonstrating. Maybe it would take 3 starters to cover all contingencies.

Roland,
Thanks for the input. One did and one didn't. But I still don't know whether the one that did started before "main flow" or not. You're right - it's hard to predict the outcome, especially when you monkey with their instincts for an empty cavity filled with continuous comb.

The reason this thread was started before the results were in is that it supports some opinions that were challanged on another thread. I don't remember all the circumstances that led to those opinions, but we had success in applying them and we apply them on a regular basis. The opinions in question:
1..The bees prefer to rear brood in a deep, when the alternative is a shallow.
2..The bees do not "like" the break in functional comb between frames of the Lang.
Some might consider the actions of the bees in this test actually supporting either of the above opinions a bit of a stretch, but it was pretty much as expected. The colony in all shallows saw no advantage to building downward, which is normal, and instead expanded laterally across the whole top shallow. The colony with the deep below only drew a few frames in the shallow at the top before jumping the gap and drawing full frames below in the deep. Think about it.

We moved from double deeps a single deep and the rest shallows to take advantage of those preferences. Expansion and contraction of the broodnest takes place in the shallows and the deep remains brood through the process. How many threads have you seen where the broodnest was in the upper deep in the fall? Doesn't happen here.

Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> The opinions in question:
> 1..The bees prefer to rear brood in a deep, when the alternative is a shallow.
> 2..The bees do not "like" the break in functional comb between frames of the Lang.
> Some might consider the actions of the bees in this test actually supporting either of the above opinions a bit of a stretch, but it was pretty much as expected. The colony in all shallows saw no advantage to building downward, which is normal, and instead expanded laterally across the whole top shallow. The colony with the deep below only drew a few frames in the shallow at the top before jumping the gap and drawing full frames below in the deep. Think about it.


I am trying but I see no correlation between what you tested and what conclusions you have made. I have seen 2 out of five hives have brood in the top box (5 High) in the fall. Are you saying if you don't contain the queen with an excluder she will not lay in the supers? I am not sure what you are making a claim to.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

If I got the details all sorted out correctly in my head.

The bees in all med had no deep frame position. so they simply built horizontally filling the top box with the break between frames a seeming boundary they where reluctant to cross.

The bees with two med on top of a deep started at the top in a med but then moved downward rather than horizontally. Supposedly they are aware of the larger frames at the bottom of the hive and this is their way of getting there faster where they prefer to be. This would lend some support to the idea that bees do have a preference for the size of frames.

I have seen the bees do the same tunnel up the center drawing of comb in the opposite direction when it came to reaching a bottle of sugar water at the top of the hive. The impression to me was that they wanted an easier path from point A to point B and had little interest in what lay between. so they drew comb out slightly on the foundation to use as something like a ladder. But they moved nearly all that sugar water into lower boxes of the hive. I didn't realize it at that time but the bees had already built their ceiling of honey over their brood nest. and my top box was just empty space to them for a while. I didn't realize I needed to make a hole through that honey. I read Walts book and think I figured it out now.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

walt's book is the best way to get the overall picture, including the proper manipulation for optimal 'cavity dynamics'(bees making bees and honey) with repect to maximizing the expoitation of the waxes and wanes of forage availibily.

translated: having a good working knowlege of the motivation of the bees at the time, helps to understand the colony dynamics. understanding the colony dynamics helps to make decision about how you manipulate your boxes and comb.

the benefit to the bee is that the beekeeper is helping more than hurting by making changes to their cavity.

the benefit to the beekeeper is less swarms, more honey.

i don't follow walt's practices to a tee. same way with m. bush, m palmer, r. oliver.

i am gleaning what i think are the best parts of what they do, and i am taking the best parts as they seem to be working for me, in my location.

walt's 60 page manuscript with illustrations is the best $10 i've spent in beekeeping.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> walt's 60 page manuscript with illustrations is the best $10 i've spent in beekeeping.


That may be but I don't see what he did in this experiment has much to do with his manuscript.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Put in it's simplest form:
The colony instincts are to build the broodnest downward from the top, filling honey in above the broodnest as they go.
From establlishment through subsequent seasons, the broodnest remains at the bottom and in winter/spring buildup the overhead honey is above to grow into. (heat rises)

For some colonies, their preferences interfere with their natural instincts. Lang hive design influences the natural order of their activities.

D. Y. got it.
Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> D. Y. got it.
> Walt


Get what? That bees refuse to cross over the bars to raise brood? No I don't get it. I don't see that in my hives. I am not saying that it doesn't happen in your hives.

I think bees start at the warmer surface and move away from it as the flows progress then eat their way back to the warm surface during dearth because they have no choice. If the hive is not vertical then their direction of movement is based on food. During flows they move away, during dearths they move towards. I believe any wooden obstacle in their main cavity be it a knot or a 2x4 is of little concern for the bees as long as it doesn't close off the cavity.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

As the OP discussed drawn comb is gold for a beginner. I found it to be the biggest limitation for making nucs and limiting how hard I could split. I put out a swarm traps last year for as many as I felt I could risk the drawn comb (lost sleep over hanging traps) justified the risk by equating it to priming the pump. My swarms in the traps were real late and did not generate as much comb as anticipated (like Roland said they did not do as anticipated).
A big time or commercial operator making drawn foundation may not be dollar wise but somebody working on expansion new comb is like finding gold.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Walt, the problem is that you didn't put a _5 gallon bucket of water_ on top of each hive.  If you had, you would have immediately earned the Acebird _Seal of Approval_!. inch:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...s-and-high-winds-question&highlight=Hurricane


None of those pesky _quotes _in this post!. :lpf:


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Radar,
Saw that when it was fresh. I read them all. Almost a full time job.
Ace bashing is an interesting diversion here on the forums. The moderators let it happen because they know Ace enjoys it. If he didn't, he would stop machine-gunning absurdities. Actually, I try not to participate in the game. He bought a copy of the manuscript and persons who have a copy get preferential treatment here.

Ace,
You are entitled to your opinion, regardless of how poorly founded.

Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> All the answers will not be available until April, but we should have enough drawn comb to get real production in 2013.


Why do you assume that wouldn't happen if you just let two normal starts go through winter? How many more drawn frames did you expect to get doing this experiment?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> Ace bashing is an interesting diversion here on the forums.


Walt, I am sorry you see my questioning as "Ace bashing". I read what you wrote in your manuscript and I think it is beneficial. I just don't think it is gospel.

You stated very clearly in your first post what your intent was for this experiment. Then later on you bring up something totally different and as I see it not even supported by what you did.

I can assure you I don't have any preferential treatment on Beesource.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Walt,

Essentially you stretched it farther than I did - I started with 2 nucs on april 28th, Texas flow was pretty well done by then as we had drought in April, and I fed all summer. With a swarm, a cutout and a split so far I'm holding at 5 hives, approximately double boxes of comb. Going in this afternoon to add some fondant with pollen sub and I'll check. I didn't try to crunch down into fewer hives, our flow is so short I need every bee on deck for it, or I will have no honey.

Gypsi


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Walt, I am sorry you see my questioning as "Ace bashing".


inch:

:scratch:

:digging:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I can assure you I don't have any preferential treatment on Beesource.


_Barry _is remarkably tolerant. But sometimes he just _lets loose _... :lpf:



Barry said:


> Yeah, I know, but I just couldn't stand seeing another Aceism go unchallenged as if it was fact. I'm the sucker this time.


:ws:

Anyone who wants to see the original context can click the blue *>> * in the quote box.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Ace,
Is American English your primary language? Read that again with you as the bashee.

Locally, we would have to feed through the summer to get the equivalent of a double deep filled before winter. I use a deep and 2 shallows - same amount of honey. If I started 2 colonies and overwintered both, I have no drawn comb to checkerboard either in late winter.

By starting one hive in shallows to be combined in the fall, I have 3 shallows of "honey" to extract for drawn comb in Feb. - one for checkerboarding and two for buildup nectar before repro cut off. That's about the least required for a single colony. I would feel better about the prospects if I had one more. Depends on the spring season.

The combine has a deep and two shallows at present.

Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> If I started 2 colonies and overwintered both, I have no drawn comb to checkerboard either in late winter.


If you fed at the pace you were feeding these why not? I am not seeing where you are gaining comb by combining colonies. Could I not combine in the spring when it will be more apparent which colony is better assuming they both make it?

If you start your colonies with all the same equipment you will never have an issue with comb. It is when you get roped into two different sizes from the very beginning that your hands are tied the next season. That is what most beginners face. Too late to smart.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> If you start your colonies with all the same equipment you will never have an issue with comb. It is when you get roped into two different sizes from the very beginning that your hands are tied the next season. That is what most beginners face. Too late to smart.


Perhaps if I quote the thread title here it will be easier for you:
"Re: *Experiment *2012/13 - Acquiring drawn comb"

Or maybe 10 letter words are difficult for you to _comprehend _ ... oops... "_get_"



> ex·per·i·ment
> _c_*:* an operation or procedure carried out under controlled conditions in order to discover an unknown effect or law, to test or establish a hypothesis, or to illustrate a known law
> 
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/experiment


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Reply to Wcubed quote about drawing foundation in a deep:

But I still don't know whether the one that did started before "main flow" or not. 

Answer: to the best of my recollections, they where given an empty brood chamber of foundation one brood cycle before our honey flow was SUPPOSED to start. The only explanation I have is that one of the queens left more pheromone behind, and encouraged cell drawn than the other. When we sub in 4-5 frames interleafed, and they are in expansion mode, we often see eggs laid on the bare foundation, with the cells walls drawn as the egg/larvae grows.

Crazy Roland


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Roland,
Thank you sir. We (you or I) don't need to have an explanation for the why. But it helps to know the what.
Walt


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Walt, surely those photos have been doctored?

Roland, when you've alternated frames of foundation in the brood nest, knowing that you put capped brood frames above a queen excluder, have you also alternated frames of foundation with the remaining 5-6 frames above the excluder?

If so, is this essentially Checkerboarding the brood nest with foundation?

Have you done this regularly, or do you usually use drawn comb instead?

Would you recommend this to someone who doesn't have drawn comb and the brood nest is clearly being backfilled?

Thanks guys!

Matthew Davey


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

UPDATE ON THE EXPERIMENT
Refresher on the fall activities: Two colonies were combined in mid Sept. One, a package hived on all shallow supers and a second package hived in a shallow over a deep. Both were started in late spring on standard foundation and were fed through the remaining season to keep them barely growing. At combining time, the all-shallow hive had 1 1/2 supers of brood and 3 1/2 supers of honey laced with feed. When extracted, it tasted like our normal honey, so it was mostly processed field nectar. Set aside to be used as feed.

The unit housed in the deep and shallow had a full deep of brood and a few frames of honey in the shallow overhead, with the remainder still undrawn foundation. When combined, the hive was, from the bottom, a deep of brood, a shallow of brood, a shallow of mixed brood and foundation, and 3 full shallows of capped honey. The 3 filled supers were removed later for extraction on a freezing morning to avoid taking bees - below in the tight cluster. Leaving the stack like that until Nov. was the first of several mistakes on my part.

We have reported several places in our writings that colony instincts direct adjusting population to be propotional to cavity size and stores available in the fall. To do otherwise could be fatal. Too many bees could result in over-consumption and starvation. Too few bees and natural winter attrition could lead to poor wintering, slow buildup, and/or failure to reproduce in the spring by swarming. Most colonies get it right and have a winter cluster sized for the cavity volume and stores. But you knew that?

We mentioned in the fall (earlier posts) that the combine had too many bees for the anticipated wintering configuration of a deep and 2 shallows. But we didn't want to push them into an overcrowding swarm in the fall and left the extra honey in place. Better too many bees than too few. We could feed in late winter, if necessary. Not mentioned in the fall posts was the presence of a deep of brood in early November. Not good. Normally, the broodnest is backfilled by that time and full-time clustering starts in early Nov. but not this season. The colony was foraging off and on into Dec (Christmas week). Also not reported in the fall posts was the adding of a medium of 1 to 1 syrup at the top in early Nov to assist in backfilling the broodnest at closeout. The medium of permacomb was dried in a week and removed. Second mistake:Two gallons was not nearly enough. Overwinter, they relocated the cluster off the empty deep and up into the first shallow of honey. Had they backfilled the deep, they would have wintered there.

(Big) Mistake #3: In early Feb. went in to checkerboard with 2 of the now empty supers of comb extracted in the winter. Finding the deep at the bottom basically empty, put the lower shallow of brood below the deep - wanted to put the deep back in service as the basic brood nest. (standard in my management scheme) The shallow at the top had a small arc of brood at the bottom of a couple frames. I expected to lose that small amount of brood to chilling by isolation from the cluster by the empty deep, but to get the deep back in use was worth it to me. What we didn't know was that we were headed into six weeks of poor foraging weather. When the temps supported breaking cluster it was either raining or threatening skies. Stopped colony developement in its tracks.

We have a firm commitment against any brood nest disturbance. The results of this exception, only make it firmer.

We are now waiting for the start of "main flow." It's 2 weeks late and counting. Will go into more detail on the spring season on the next post.

For now, we just want to report that between me and Mother Nature, we blew the experiment. We are going into main flow with a weakling for this time in the season, and we don't expect to come close to my usual honey production.

Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> Finding the deep at the bottom basically empty, put the lower shallow of brood below the deep - wanted to put the deep back in service as the basic brood nest. (standard in my management scheme) The shallow at the top had a small arc of brood at the bottom of a couple frames. I expected to lose that small amount of brood to chilling by isolation from the cluster by the empty deep, but to get the deep back in use was worth it to me.


It is your management scheme to be using deeps not the bees. If you don't look at what you did as mistakes and give up on the idea that they won't cross the bottom bars you could have just left them the way there were and they would have been fine. JMO


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Walt: In hindsight can you really say that your decision to reverse your boxes was a "big mistake"? When I have some decision I made turn out to be the wrong one I try to look back and ask myself if given the facts as I knew them at the time, was my decision really a bad one. Unless you chose to ignore a weather forecast promising you 2 weeks of unseasonably poor buildup weather I might suggest that given the same set of facts and with your knowledge of the buildup history of your area that you would go with the odds and do the same thing again......or maybe not.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Ace,
Have never said they "Won't" cross the interbar space. Most do, some don't - under a wide variety of circumstances. Do you understand the word reluctant? Almost all hesitate - some more, some less. Bees are adaptable. They use what they have to work with - whether they like it or not.

jim,
Was aware of the risk. But at the time considered them possibly too strong for my supply of drawn comb. And yes I would do it again under the same circumstances. It was a mistake from the standpoint of objectives of the experiment - to get good production in the second year.

Walt


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Walt, I love your experiments, very detailed. I have also been running some regarding your CB technique as well as simply monitoring the amount of new drawn comb (critical for somebody expanding or just attempting to keep up). 
First weather: breaking records for heat and end of winter. Blackberries are in bloom here, my logs put them a solid 4 weeks early. That is our last flow of the summer and summer has not yet arrived. 
Swarm season was also about 4 weeks ahead and I put two in the trees (April 25th and April 27th) and captured them both. One drew 9 frames (I added a drawn to anchor them) in about a week. I was shocked. Second is just now getting to 10 frames in 4 weeks, (all on wax foundation)
Of my overwintered nucs, two have now filled a double deep and has started a shallow, and a third has just started a second deep (all on wax foundation).
The CB hive (no pollen box) did not swarm and although it had constant activity it did not build as expected. It may have superseded rather than swarmed. It has a medium drawn that it has not touched, still filling in the CB shallows.
I think it is obvious that the weather has played havoc on my experiments, but I wanted to document my records for drawing comb to this spring. I label every frame I build and document each box I put in the field in an excel spread sheet but this post is already too long.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

End of flow update:
The reversal of the shallow of brood and the nearly empty deep accomplished its goals. Went to the bottom last week to check. Although you were not told all the reasons why in the discussion above while results were pending, the reversal produced the desired effects. The shallow at the bottom, formerly brood, is now filled with fall, long-term-stored pollen. (bee bread) The deep is now the basic broodnest. Two features we consider importent to good wintering, and the driver for the reversal.

As noted above, the combined colony was under-strength at the start of "main flow." Poor weather conditions did not support colony growth after CBing. At the start of main flow, two weeks late, the cluster in the deep didn't even fill the deep - maybe 5 frames. Did not look good for production of honey. They had retrieved the honey in the CBed supers earlier and been fed to keep them going. However, they continued to gain strength during the flow, and now have concentrated bees to the top - a deep and 5 shallows. Last week, they were starting to store honey in the top shallow. Today, the top shallow is about 1/3 filled to the uncapping depth, but they are no longer making new wax to extend cell depth. Flow trail off.

"Main flow," as seen through this one colony, started 2 weeks late, and has run 2 weeks longer than normal. Periodic rain has maintained the shallow-rooted white clover longer than normal. It's our winding down source, and is weakening now. So, we can report that the test colony did not do as bad as expected. We worried that they might not put up enough for winter, but their growth though the flow has produced at least 2 supers of surplus. Not bad, considering. And we have a couple hundred acres of soybeans starting to bloom within reach.

The excessive population of broodnest growth through the early main flow period has not escaped their notice. At last week's inspection, the broodnest was almost shut down and filling with stores. Just a few random cells of worker capped brood. Unusual. Locally, the broodnest is reduced gradually through the flow and the summer doldrums, but can't remember any season where they completely stopped rearing brood.

Experiment conclusions:
In spite of all the problems involved, we think the basic concept was validated. By starting 2 colonies in different configurations, we did acquire more supers of drawn comb. Actually, the extra supers were generated by the colony started in the all-shallow config. The colony started with a deep and shallow did not contribute much more than the deep brood nest, and that was not completely drawn.

This technique, or some modification of it, could provide enough drawn comb to get swarm prevention and increased honey production in the second season by the beginning beekeeper.

Walt


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

pretty much the same down here walt. there is some bright yellow pollen coming in during the first few hours of the day, but after that i think water is about all they are foraging.

interesting that you mentioned the brood break. i think saw this happen in my strongest (by numbers and production) colony that superceded in late april rather than swarm. i thought this colony was queenless a couple of weeks ago as there was nothing but a little capped brood and i could not find the queen, but it may be as you observed in your hive. i'll be checking this one carefully next week.

very cool idea about using two hives to get enough comb drawn and then combine. looks like you save a whole year and reach full establishment for the second season. i found a similar result when recycling frames of drawn comb from winter losses last year into my second year hives. 

i can see why some will say that drawn comb is the most valuable resource. for our area, it looks like there is less than two months per season that you can get it drawn when relying on natural forage only.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> At last week's inspection, the broodnest was almost shut down and filling with stores. Just a few random cells of worker capped brood. Unusual. Locally, the broodnest is reduced gradually through the flow and the summer doldrums, but can't remember any season where they completely stopped rearing brood.


Could this be preparation for a swarm?


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

"Acquiring drawn comb" being the focus of the experiment, I had considered mentioning Matt Davey's post about dual queen colonies, then Matt was in your conversation. Surprised that he didn't mention it.

When I was reading his posts, part of what appealed to me was that he stated that the dual queen colonies were drawing out comb very fast.

Walt love the way you write & explain method & purpose. Ever consider the dual queen colonies. I would love to read a side by side comparison for the purpose of drawing comb.

Interesting post. Thanks.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I was previously asked:

Roland, when you've alternated frames of foundation in the brood nest, knowing that you put capped brood frames above a queen excluder, have you also alternated frames of foundation with the remaining 5-6 frames above the excluder?

No, they are grouped in the center of the deep, to conserve heat. In buildup, spreading, but maintaining a compact cluster is imperative. It is a fine line to walk, enough open space, but not too much.

Crazy Roland


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Roland:
The beginners don't seem to understand that in the early season, with hard cluster overnight, the bees only work within the warmed cluster interior. As the cluster expands with population growth, the work area is enlarged, generally upward into heat rise. That's the basic reason that overwintering honey to grow into is stored above. It's also the reason for the hesitation at box joints in upward growth. The warmed cluster interior has to span the break in functional comb of an inch and a half (wood frames) to start work in the next higher box.
As I understand your procedure, timing is critical for the first frame raised. The colony has to have enough population to infold that first frame. After that timing gets less critical. You are adding population all the way. Yes?

Acebird...preparation for a swarm?
Not likely. Swarm preps are initiated on increasing field nectar - not trailoff. They have been at this survival business for a few generations and "know" the difference. Of course we can distort their judgement by feeding.

Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> Of course we can distort their judgement by feeding.
> 
> Walt


Yeah, this is the dilemma a newbie faces when feeding without experience.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

wcubed said:


> Ace,
> Is American English your primary language? Read that again with you as the bashee.


Omigosh!
Maybe it's _not_ that he's a a̶t̶t̶e̶n̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶h̶o̶u̶n̶d̶ ̶ show off, or doesn't u̶n̶d̶e̶r̶s̶t̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶ get the concept of _̶e̶x̶p̶e̶r̶i̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶ having seen_ as a̶u̶t̶h̶o̶r̶i̶t̶y̶ ̶ knowing about what happens in a h̶u̶r̶r̶i̶c̶a̶n̶e̶ ̶ big wind and rain storm.

Maybe it's _not_ that he doesn't u̶n̶d̶e̶r̶s̶t̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶ get physics or common sense.

Maybe he really _isn't_ the sort of guy that would tell you sky is green and grass is blue just to be noticed.

Maybe he's not a native English speaker and simply didn't fully u̶n̶d̶e̶r̶s̶t̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶ get the all of things being said.

That makes so much more sense than what I'd thought all this time!
Why didn't I see it before?
:doh:


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I checked an outyard in a little apple orchard yesterday and the bees did not touch the shallow supers on either of the two double deep hives there. I thought it was odd since the top deep was 8 frames honey and two small sections of brood. The lower deep was over half full of bee bread. The second hive was similar except the bottom box was all plastic, pulled with some serious holes in the centers of the frames. The Corbett area is higher in elevation and the flow is still in progress (although trailing). I noted Walt’s observations on the post here and was wondering if he had any theories as to what is going on. Both hives look like they are shutting down for winter in the first week of July.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Walt asked:
You are adding population all the way. Yes?

Yes. Two goals from one task. By providing adequate, but not superfluous open comb, we maximize the queen's ability to lay(she spends less time looking for a hole), and minimize swarm tendencies.

Crazy Roland


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

roland, do you generally put the open comb to the outside of the broodnest when moving a frame back to the bottom box vs. putting it in the middle of the broodnest?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I was asked:

do you generally put the open comb to the outside of the broodnest when moving a frame back to the bottom box vs. putting it in the middle of the broodnest?

Yes. We do both. First, when it is cool, the new frames are placed on the outside of the remaining brood downstairs, creating a vertical brood nest that is easier to heat. When things get going and it is warmer, the new frames can be interspersed or what ever you feel like. At that point, it does not matter. the bees can cover it all.

Crazy Roland


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