# Sucrocide



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have not. The people I've talked to who have used it say it worked well but is very labor intensive.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I was thinking of trying it on the bees when they are in the shaker boxes, before they get installed in the mating nucs. Has anybody tried this before?

Jean-Marc


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Jean-Marc;

Check out the shaker boxes on this video. She treats for MItes using the shaker box.

http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/02000018960220000000_lo.asx

Terry


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I dug out my blurb sheet. It describes sucrocide as a bio-pesticide made from sugar and tropical vegatable fatty acides. Can be used during the honey flow. Test by Stanghellini and Raybold reprted in ABJ june 2004 show it 96% effective when used as directed. It has a "non-toxix'mode towards the pest so pests don't become resitant. it kills the mites by breaking down the cuticle on the mites. I'll see if I can find a link for this on line and include it in the next post. It does sound labor intensive and some quick math says it will cost about $2.50 to complete the 2 or 3 treatment regimen. it is edible though, seems like it could be worth the effort. i'll get back when I find the link.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Antero:

Yeah, I saw that one awhile back, she uses a systemic incectiside, I think they mean amitraz, although I am not sure. I was thinking that once the bees are in the shaker boxes that it would be a good time tho treat for mites. Sucroside is benign and all mites are exposed at that point, it would not require a great deal of effort at that point.

Jean-Marc


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## Neubee (Mar 23, 2005)

If you get the ABJ there's a Classroom conversation about applying sucrocide on p. 188. There is a easier way to apply it but it has a lower effeciency.

APK


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

I have been using Sucrocide.

My "natural fall" BEFORE first application (3/4/05) was 25.0. After 5 applications, (3/4, 3/21, 3/25, 3/29, 4/5) count was 23.8 (4/22).

I have been applying by REMOVING frames, not spraying BETWEEN frames as suggested in ABJ. 

IMO, Sucrocide does not appear (from the numbers) to be effective.

Maybe, it doesnt work on large-cell bees


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As with many treatments Sucrocide does not kill the mites that are capped in the cells, so if the mites are doubling in the cells (normal) then you have them constantly emerging. Of course the principle you were following was to keep killing them as they emerge before they can get back in the cells. You would think it would make a bigger dent.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

These IWF videos are very informative (thanks Antero!). I'm a little confused, however, about the practice of laying plastic over the frames in the top chamber. I'm guessing it's to avoid burr comb, but seems like it'd be detrimental to ventilation. Thoughts?


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## renaud (Dec 15, 2004)

Hello Guys,

I haven't read ABJ but I totaly agree with Michael Bush. In march you already have a lot of brood. Using OA, sucroid or wathever that does not kill varroa inside broodcells is ineffective. It is a pitty that poeple use medication like that. When I'm using a medication, I folow doc's instructions ( or at least I read the insert).
Dave, you can not say that in your opinion sucroide does not work, but in your COSDITIONS (that are not approved by manufacturer)it has not worked. 

Every time I read this forum I'm reading people that treated 5x or 3x with x,y,or z.....everything you drop on the hive will go on honey. think about that!!

renaud

http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_RL_2004.html


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

In most cases Renaud your point is well taken. Succrocide is edible and the effective ingredient I believe is tropical oils which break down the cuticle on the mites. Although it may turn up in honey is there a downside? I'm not aware of anything that kills the mites in the closed cells. I've heard formic will, I wonder how without effecting brood. I plan to try succrocide and apply it according to instruction in single deeps over a period 1 brood cycle. I wish I had the time to count mite drop and get some clear scientific results. More likely I will have to monitor and intercede if mite levels threaten. I have received some additional info from the person who developed it and am willing to spend some time and effort to test it and hopefully get away from fluvalinates and cumophos.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

"TIMING OF APPLICATION:
Initiate applications as soon as Varroa mites are observed. Repeat applications at intervals of 7-10 days, up to three times per infestation, to control mites emerging from brood cells."

(from the instructions)


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Dick, is "Timing" for my info?

Here's an additional note:
"In 2003, Sheppard et al developed an application technique (direct spraying) that achieved an average of 68% (low as 38%) mortality."
- - ABJ, 6/04, p475


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

Kinda of new around here so let me just jump on in and test the water. I have my own little science experiment going with sucrocide. I am certain the manufactures label say a maximum of three application at 7-10 day interval. Just finished up my third application about a week ago and I will retest each 'effected' hive in about 30 days. Don't know as much about mites as I should, actually started seeing a few mites in drones cells in early spring for the first time and figured I had to get at least partially proactive about the mite problem. Powdered suger tested all my hives and weighted the pure mite number count by 3X. All hive with a value over 50 were then treated (this was about 10% of my active hive count). In looking closely at this 10% about 60% was in some form of queen replacement. All the hive were showing signs of a failing queen.... lots of random drone cells and a buck shot pattern in the worker cell pattern. Any additonal insight is certainly welcome. panther passing in the night...


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Hi Dave W. Nope, it wasn't specifically intended for you. Someone mentioned some application dates that were not in the 7-10 day interval range. I went back and looked, and it was you. For shame!







Others had mentioned it not killing mites in brood. I suppose that's what the 3 applications at 7-10 day intervals are for. Personally, I'm not experienced at all in using it. I bought a jug at Betterbee in NY when I was back there in March for use this summer up here in Anchorage where, unfortunately, the Varroa mite is also alive and well. I'm going to try it this summer except on my TBH and small cell hives I guess I'll know next spring if it works.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Do we have any information as to the temperature at which it is applied adding to the effectiveness? It would seem that if it is done at a cooler temps, potentially evening, the field bees, possibly carrying mites, would be in the hive and be treated. At night they would be less active (flight wise) possibly slowing the process of removal of the succrocide through reduced grooming.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

The instructions on my bottle say simply: "Do not apply when honey bees are in winter cluster or at temperatures below 50º F to avoid chillilng the bee population." 

As I understand Sucrocide kills mites by dissolving their cuticle. Maybe there is some grooming, but IMO it probably doesn't come into play too much when treating with Sucrocide.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Yea that makes sense, it is likely the effect of being coated that kills the mites, not residual contact. It would be good if those of us who plan to try it make what results we find known.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Dick, During the time-frame I was "using" Sucrocide, poor weather (cold & rainy-days) was a problem. If the forecast (or my "feeling") projected the next 7-10 day "window" to be bad, I elected to treat "early" rather than "later" (hence, more applications).

How do you think this may have affected my SBB-measured treatment results?


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Anyone know why a mite cuticle is affected and a bee cuticle isn't? Seems like they'd be pretty similar, and I know some folks spray bees with soapy water to kill them. 

Also, does soapy water work on other Hymenoptera like YJs and kin?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I believe it was in this forum where I read that once mixed Sucrocide has a very short self-life and therefore must be used quickly. Can anyone confirm this? 

What about self-life of the unmixed Sucrocide? Can I still use the stuff I bought last year?


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

As far as I know soap or detergent will kill any insect, as it dissolves the wax coating on top of the cuticle.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Actually I believe(insecticidal) soap suffocates the insect as opposed to killing it by breaking down the cuticle. I'm not sure why the tropical oils in succrocide would not break down the exoskelatan on a bee. It would follow that too much tropical oil applied could also suffocate insects. It shouldn't be much of a concern mixed with water.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Actually I believe (insecticidal) soap suffocates 
> the insect as opposed to killing it by breaking 
> down the cuticle.

Exactly.

> I'm not sure why the tropical oils in succrocide 
> would not break down the exoskelatan on a bee.

Well, at high doses, it CAN kill bees. Above 80
micrograms of the pure undiluted substance is
the "LD50", the point at which half the bees
subjected to the dose died.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Well now I'm confused (even more so than normal  ). How does the stuff work? Does it break down the cuticle or does it suffocate the mites?


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

The December 2003 issue of American Bee Journal carried a good article on sucrose octanoate (aka Sucrocide now). Included in the article are easy to follow instructions for calibrating your garden sprayer to deliver the 1.5 fl. oz. spray to each frame. The ABJ article was reprinted in the Washington State Beekeepers Association newsletter: 

www.wasba.org/0401news.pdf


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

If I ever get around to tring this stuff, I'll weld up a lightweight stand out of 1 x 1" .080" tube that will have 5 arms on each side.
The arms would hold the frames in such close proximity that you would have one large panel of bees on comb to spray.
On a calm day you would gently pull frames and hang them on the arms. Then you pick up your sprayer and spray one side of a ten frame panel, walk around and spray the other side.
Then set your sprayer down and place all ten frames back in the box.
I think this method could really make the process doable when there are a number of hives to be treated.


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## JLD (Jan 27, 2005)

I am sitting here reading the American Bee Journal December 2003 article on the use of sucrose octanoate esters to control varroa. The study says that mortality occurs at concentration as low as 0.75%. The recommended treatment concentration is 0.25%.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Dick, the liturature from Dadant claims the tropical oils break down the cuticle on the mites. If I can find it I'll post it on our site, or it may be on the Dadant site.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

I just bought some and wondered what time of day do you spray, seams to me it would be sometimes in the morning or before dark so you get all the bee's sprayed.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

The bees look kinda drowned after the process is complete (or like shook bees when a bit too much nectar is present). So just bee sure that the air temp is warm, which where you are I are brother is about anytime of the day or night. Even though I sprayed the girls fairly early in the morning I got a big buildup of field force on the front of the hives. I just turned the sprayer on them as I got to the end of the process. I shall test treated hives for results in about a week (30 days after last treatment). It looks like most of my sample that was in transition to new queen made the jump. Stay tuned.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

Does anyone still use Sucrocide? I have some from 2 years ago unmixed and was wondering if people have walked away from this treatment as ineffective? I am curious if I should try it again this year.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Re:Sucker cide

Spent a couple hundred bucks on this junk.It didn't work. A waste of time and money.


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