# Is this a spotty brood pattern?



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Photo #128 shows a very spotty pattern.

Photo # 118 shows a queen CELL ("cups" look like acorn caps).

Two frames "packed w/ honey/nectar" in a SINGLE brood chamber may be normal (if they are in "outside positions").

Should I replace queen? That always a good option but the bees may do it for you 

Outbreeding by queen replacement may not be a good option for a newbee. A 1st year hives usually dont have enough mites to require such drastic action.

What are you mite counts?


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## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

I wouldnt call it a spotty brood pattern. Looks more like where brood hatched in the brood pattern


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Depends on your queen gentics. If there is any VHS genes in her, the brood pattern may be due more to hygenic traits than queen viablity.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Looks like cells backfilled with nectar after they emerged - does not look like spotty brood pattern, though does not look like an outstanding brood pattern.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

peggjam said:


> the brood pattern may be due more to hygenic traits than queen viablity.


That's what I was thinking. Not necessarily from VSH mite removal. Are you seeing any chalkbrood? That's what it looks like to me. An hygenic chalkbrood pattern. It often looks like a shotgun brood pattern. Queen lays first round. Chalk kills a per centage of brood. Bees clean it out. Queen relays in those cells. Chalk kills a per centage. So, when the frame of brood is sealed, it is of various ages, which hatch at a different time, giving the shotgun appearance.

Marla tells me that colonies showing what I call the hygenic chalkbrood aren't hygenic enough.


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## Alan (Feb 13, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> That's what I was thinking. Not necessarily from VSH mite removal. Are you seeing any chalkbrood? That's what it looks like to me. An hygenic chalkbrood pattern. It often looks like a shotgun brood pattern. Queen lays first round. Chalk kills a per centage of brood. Bees clean it out. Queen relays in those cells. Chalk kills a per centage. So, when the frame of brood is sealed, it is of various ages, which hatch at a different time, giving the shotgun appearance.
> 
> Marla tells me that colonies showing what I call the hygenic chalkbrood aren't hygenic enough.


So, queens,whose offspring show a high level of hygienic behavior, have larvae that are not susceptible to chalkbrood? This implies that susceptibility and hygienic behavior are directly linked and not acting independently. Is this what Marla is saying?


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## Beesilly (Dec 31, 2007)

Thank you for all the suggestions. I have no idea if my bees are hygenetic or not, for they are a mix. This hive is still recovering from nosema so that might be one of the reasons. And I will just let my bees be, if they want a new queen... so be it. If they want to overwinter with her... so be it.
And umm... are you just joking about the bannana thing? Because it's hard to tell when one's sarcastic on the computer. If not, then what is the bananna for exactly?
Thanks again.
beesilly


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Beesilly,
If you want to do a low-tech approach for testing your bees, you can pin-prick a grouping of sealed larvae and see how fast they clean them out. 

Although some argue or will point out the differences of smr traits and hygienic traits and even grooming ability, I find them somewhat hand in hand. You can also soak some paper towels in FGMO scented with some thymol or menthol. Lay them on the top of the frames. Come back in 3-5-7 day intervals, or whatever suits you, and note which hives tear apart the paper and discard them out the front of the hive.

If a hive cleans the bottom board, rips out larvae with mites and has a high grooming behavior, thats what you looking for.

And please also note that spotty patterns can be more than the usual call for hygienic bees. Hygienic bees that rip out larvae on a scale that can create spotty patterns can easily be recognized and observed. It is the ripping out of pupae normally. I mention this because spotty brood could also just be a poor genetic queen, but often times its a sign of inbreeding.

Inbreeding will result in spotty brood patterns but the cells are cleaned out in the stages well before the pupae stage seen with hygienic bees. So you may not really notice cells being opened, larvae being removed, or any other sign. Its just a spotty pattern as the bees clean out the eggs after the queen lays them. I would venture to say that some may be touting their hygienic bees, after not recognizing their poorly mated queen and loss of brood from inbreeding.

I would think twice about hygienic bees due to a spotty pattern but yet no sign of pupae being removed.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Alan said:


> So, queens,whose offspring show a high level of hygienic behavior, have larvae that are not susceptible to chalkbrood? This implies that susceptibility and hygienic behavior are directly linked and not acting independently. Is this what Marla is saying?


Good question. I believe she means that if the bees are hygienic, they'll clean up the disease before mummies are formed, and that brood loss, and the queen re-laying in those cells will happen so quickly that there won't be any difference in age in the brood pattern.

I have to disagree with that, but I'm not the expert on the hygienic trait.
From my observations, it seems to me that there are two traits at work.

The first is the hygienic trait. The bees remove infected pupae before the disease is in the spore forming stage. This action prevents the disease from spreading. OK, I can see the benefit in that, and it's obvious that it's true. I'm not sure of the mechanics of the disease, though. At what point in the development of the larva/pupa does the bee become infected? It would have to be almost immediately to not show the Hygienic Chalkbrood Pattern (HCP).

But the second trait, in my opinion, is resistance. Resistant bees never get the disease in the first place. I think what I call the HCP clearly shows that. It resembles a spotty brood pattern. I've seen it many times when requeening chalk colonies with hygienic queens. Colonies that are resistant have no spotty brood pattern, and never show one cell of chalk. I breed from those, and over the years have cleared up a severe chalkbrood problem in my apiaries. I rarely find any chalk at all. When I do, and the bees clean it up, those colonies have no mummies and clearly show the spotty HCP. 

That's how I see it.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

*Diagnosing Spotty Brood Pattern*

Perhaps you should be looking at the open brood, and not the sealed brood.

A spotty brood pattern is caused by queen problems...not enough alleles, etc. The eggs are eaten before hatching, or the queen fails to lay in a % of the cells. If you look only at the sealed brood, before it hatches, it may be that she has re-layed in those cells, and everything is sealed...then it starts to hatch. The older brood hatches first, creating the spotty brood pattern.

If you look at the brood before it is sealed, you can see the misses. A good pattern in unsealed brood would look like...all the larvae in ajacent cells would be nearly the same age. All the cells would have a larva. The ages of the larvae would gradually get younger the farther away from the center of the pattern you go, eventually winding up at the egg stage.

A poor open brood pattern would have young larvae, old larvae, eggs, empty cells...all mixed up across the comb.


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