# What's the best way to get bees out of supers for extracting?



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

1)
Flip the supers on edge and the bees will fly out on their own if a flow is still on.
2)
Put an empty box on the hive with one very strong frame in it. Pick up a frame, give it a hard shake to knock off most of the bees, then rap the frame hard on the bar in the box. Everything will jump off and scurry away.

( in actual practice, this is overly complicated, just pick a bee free spot on the exposed super and slap the frame down hard, targeting the end bar to the empty spot. Bees jump off like fleas from a dog.)


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## Greg Lowe (Feb 3, 2012)

Shake them off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idNlC3roDTU
Don shows you how he does it in the first 2 minutes.

We shake them in front of the hive where he shows shaking them into the top.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I like using an escape board. I put it on two days before pulling the supers off, very few stragglers are all that's ever left behind.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

RayMarler said:


> very few stragglers are all that's ever left behind.


In this part of the country....along with those few stragglers are small hive beetles. Left....alone....with a full super.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Ah yes, Thanks Dan. I don't have hive beetles here, so I was not thinking about location of beekeeping. My apologies. If I had hive beetles, I'd blow them off or brush them off, frame by frame I suppose, and put in spare box to take back to the honey house.


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## Pete O (Jul 13, 2013)

The FatBeeMan has made things very simple and easy. I've never had a problem with his methods and learned lots from him. He's well worth a donation too.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Greg Lowe said:


> Shake them off.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idNlC3roDTU
> Don shows you how he does it in the first 2 minutes.
> 
> We shake them in front of the hive where he shows shaking them into the top.


Not sure if we should copy a bloke who can't afford a beesuit?


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## Deepsouth (Feb 21, 2012)

If you only have a couple hives, shaking the frames off is a good method to use. 

I cant do that with 50 hives so Fume boards with bee quick are by far the fastest and easiest.


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## Propolis (Apr 22, 2014)

Is Bee Quick organic? Bee Go worked well but I can't stand the smell that goes into all my equipment.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

For a few boxes either brush the bees off with a bee brush or shake them off by turning the frame upside down and tapping them off. The much heavier top bar will prevent any potential frame damage. Transfer the frames into a second box (which you can cover) to save rehandling each frame? If you are doing a lot of boxes, Bee Go or honey robber is by far your best option. With proper handling it will never contact your honey nor will the smell even be present in your honey house. When conditions are good I estimate we use about a gallon to pull 65,000lbs. Of honey and no traces of butyric anhydride will ever be detected in your honey.


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## Deepsouth (Feb 21, 2012)

Propolis said:


> Is Bee Quick organic? Bee Go worked well but I can't stand the smell that goes into all my equipment.


It smells a lot better than Bee Go


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

Jim Fischer, who was (may still be) the head Bubba for Fischer's Bee Quick has addressed the ingredients in his product in the past on this forum. You can search "Fischers" and "Fishers" for some of his answers.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...her-s-Bee-Quick-and-NO-Veil&highlight=fishers


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## Stansuch99 (Feb 1, 2014)

Greg Lowe said:


> Shake them off.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idNlC3roDTU
> Don shows you how he does it in the first 2 minutes.
> 
> We shake them in front of the hive where he shows shaking them into the top.


 i would not trust anything anyone has to say when they only care about the profit of the bees. I hate to see someone not care about them.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

With no direction in my first year, I got rid of the bees by shaking off the honey frames and setting them in an empty super (that I kept covered).

In my second year, I discovered Bee Quick and a fume board, and I never went back. Holy fishsticks save yourself the time, effort, and sweat. Put the board on and then go and do something with another hive, prepare equipment, sit in your car with the fan or A/C on, _whatever_ it is you want to do; less than 10 minutes come back and just take the whole darn super off, easy as you please. Honestly, I can't think of why anyone would prefer not to do this aside from sheer obstinance (which there's certainly plenty of amongst us, mind). The concern about chemicals getting into the honey doesn't ring true to me; it seems to me that someone would have to be using way too much of the stuff and letting it sit on the hive way too long for fumes soaking through the caps and into the honey to be a problem.

I won't recommend "Bee Quick" specifically as there's probably a number of chemicals out there that will do the trick and Bee Quick just happens to be the only one I've tried; but it does work. I've never smelled Bee Go but I have heard...unpleasant things...about the smell, so I avoided it. Guys, if the smell of Bee Go is what put you off fume boards...way back when Bee Go was the only thing that was around...I highly suggest giving the new chemicals a try. Bee Quick smells downright good.


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## Propolis (Apr 22, 2014)

I'll try it. What pushed me over the edge for good was that the Bee-Go bottle spilled during the winter in my shed and the entire contents of the shed smelled like something I don't feel like describing here but I could also say dog waste and vomit mixed together. I feared my nearby supers were ruinied and it took hours of washing and lime to get it out. That bottle went to a far away place. Bee Quick sounds good though. I just looked it up and Fischer's Bee Quick is the natural product that is sold by Betterbee. Is that what you mean? If so I tried it and it worked a bit slower than Go but hey if that is what you are recommending so strongly I'm on. Let me know.


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## Coach B (Feb 28, 2011)

melliferal said:


> less than 10 minutes come back and just take the whole darn super off, easy as you please. Honestly, I can't think of why anyone would prefer not to do this aside from sheer obstinance (which there's certainly plenty of amongst us, mind).


I can shake out a super in way under 10 minutes. By doing it a frame at a time I can also check for any brood or unfilled/uncapped frames. I've used Bee Quick and am fine with it. Works great if you've got several fume boards going down a row and know for certain there is no brood or uncapped frames on top. Usually for me once I get past the top super or two I better be checking them.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Propolis said:


> I just looked it up and Fischer's Bee Quick is the natural product that is sold by Betterbee. Is that what you mean? If so I tried it and it worked a bit slower than Go but hey if that is what you are recommending so strongly I'm on. Let me know.


That's the stuff - but I want to stress that it's the technique of using a fume board that I recommend strongly, not this chemical specifically. In the catalogs I've seen a few others that mention they smell better than Bee Go, so I guess it would be worth it to ask around and see what people have to say about them. The Bee Quick works, though.



Coach B said:


> I can shake out a super in way under 10 minutes. By doing it a frame at a time I can also check for any brood or unfilled/uncapped frames. I've used Bee Quick and am fine with it. Works great if you've got several fume boards going down a row and know for certain there is no brood or uncapped frames on top. Usually for me once I get past the top super or two I better be checking them.


It took me less than 10 minutes to shake out the super my first year too. But when I got to several hives, I just couldn't see myself shaking all those supers out frame by frame without my gouty wrists and elbows complaining - and the other thing I noticed is that, as you shake off more and more frames, the air gets more and more full of bees and I don't like creating that kind of situation when there's such a practical alternative available. With the fume board the bees leave the supers but they aren't going crazy.

The guy in the video posted earlier is obviously confident enough to go yanking and jerking his equipment and hive furniture around; but even after a few years of beekeeping I prefer a somewhat more gentle and prudent approach to working the bees. If the bees are aggravated, knowing that it's not me that made them that way means I can take it as a sign of some kind of problem that needs fixing.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We are partial to a REAL bee blower. A leaf blower is not the same thing, and a real bee blower has a stand with a chute to deliver the bees to their door step. 

It was developed in the 60's to prevent any transfer of smell(benzaldehyde was used then?).

Crazy Roland


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Ive seen Bee Go fry tons of bees brains. Bee Quick doesn't seem to be as harsh on the bees and it smells MUCH better. I prefer bee quick to clear supers fast.


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## Propolis (Apr 22, 2014)

Roland,

I am interested in this real bee blower, how it looks, where I could get one. Can you direct me? I think that using this in conjunction with fume boards might be the way I want to go. 

Thanks


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Can you weld?

Crazy Roland


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## Propolis (Apr 22, 2014)

My son and other friends can yes.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I will try to scan a picture and post it, but have patience, I am a Luddite.

Crazy Roland


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Bee go is the best.


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## Propolis (Apr 22, 2014)

Bee go is sick stuff. Natural worked fairly well for me but I think this blower that is being discussed will work well in conjunction. Looking forward to the photos. Is this something you (Roland) designed yourself or is it commercially available somewhere or in use in other places?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

My hesitation with bee blowers is the risk of killing or damaging the queen. It makes perfect sense for a commercial guy using this method because time is money. Back yard beeks have a higher risk because they have much fewer hives they are working. I think one thing stink bombs do is clear the queen. Then you can do almost anything. I try to use smoke but that isn't fool proof either.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have for over 40 years used a common leaf blower with a shop vac hose and crevice nozzle attached. More recently I use an electric blower that came with the Ridgid Blower Vac I bought to power my Bushkill bee vac. I prefer electric as it is easier to turn on and off and less polluting. At sites with no power we use the gas leaf blower. 
For hives with no queen excluder we have a stand that aims the bees down onto the hive entrance. For the others we have a revolving table and chose a common spot to blow to. 

https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/16-gallon-wet-dry-vac-with-detachable-blower

http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=479


We pull about 2.5 tons of crop with this method. No chemicals required, few bees killed, few mad bees, no extra lifting or equipment required.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

odfrank said:


> For hives with no queen excluder we have a stand that aims the bees down onto the hive entrance. For the others we have a revolving table and chose a common spot to blow to.


Does the chute insure that the queen goes back in the hive if she is in the super? Wow 67.50 for something that looks like a camp stool.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Does the chute insure that the queen goes back in the hive if she is in the super? Wow 67.50 for something that looks like a camp stool.


I agree. Seems like being a beekeeper is like being a boat owner. Prices for both are out of control. The good news is that the shipping is only $18.00 to my area. This shocked me because generally the product shipped=the product cost *1.5 minimum.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Roland said:


> I will try to scan a picture and post it, but have patience, I am a Luddite.
> 
> Crazy Roland



C'mon C'mon! we need to see that blower. My MIG welder is fired up and ready. Let's go man!


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Wow 67.50 for something that looks like a camp stool.


I thought it looked like a TV tray stand, with the top tray reworked into a panel.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Patience you guys. 

It is pictured in an article on page 246 of the July 1966 ABJ. My local print shop can not scan, so I will have to trade squash to the neighbor to have him scan it. 


Ace, if you use a queen exclude, you do not have to worry about hurting the queen, unless you wish to, like when she is a drone layer.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

odfrank said:


> For hives with no queen excluder we have a stand that aims the bees down onto the hive entrance.





Roland said:


> Ace, if you use a queen exclude, you do not have to worry about hurting the queen, unless you wish to,


Roland, Odfrank made the comment "with no queen excluder". That would be me so I would like to know the thinking for blowing bees when there is a possibility that you are driving the queen out of the box.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ave, I have never noticed a bee killed by air. The queen should be no different. Learn to use an excluder, they are useful tools.

The Article and squash are at the neighbors to be scanned(not the squash), should have tomorrow night.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Duh, it is not the air that kills them it is hitting a hard object being carried off from high velocity air. This is most likely going to happen if you use a shop vac at full power.


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## bentonbee (Jan 31, 2007)

Roland,
Is the Bee blower Dadant sells like you have? I attached a file.
Mike in Iowa


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

No. They are missing half of it. I will attempt to attach the article.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Hmm. That was the second page, this might be the first:

Crazy Roland


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

So Ace, do you really think the bees will get damaged on the angled chute?

Crazy Roland


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## bentonbee (Jan 31, 2007)

Thanks for sharing the photos and info on the blower Roland. Does yours have the two cycle 5 hp motor or is it a 4 cycle 5 hp motor?
Mike in iowa


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Gave it a try and quickly knocked something up.










































Pulled a ton of honey that day, brought about 40 bees back home. Supers are cleared well. Not one bee injured as far as I could see. No aggression after it, no robbing if working quick.

The only thing: you need to blow from both sides, because bees cling to the underside. On the chute you can't turn the super on it's side. I did this on the tailgate of the truck or I put it on top of the hive, but it is another step that costs time. Would be better, if you could turn the super while on the chute.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Very nice. I have the same blower and I may think about making a stand like yours. I suppose it is quicker than shaking the bees off and it would be easier physically as well.
Nice job.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Benton:

All of ours have been 2 cycle. We are looking at converting to propane, no worries about getting the gas smell in the honey.

Crazy Roland


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Bee blower all the way. We stack all the honey off the hives and then blow them out when were done pulling. Most the bees go home when the honey flow is on. Really only blowing out the last 20-25% of the bees.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Roland, thank you for posting the article. I needed a visual and will work on this for next years harvest.

Bernhard, Benton, etc. thank you all.

being a one man show this could save me lots of time.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Glad i could be of assistance. 

I forgot to mention that this is a reprint from the July 1966 ABJ. I would think that it may be time to re-examine what was done, and what can be improved after 48 years. The use of an Aluminum frame might make it lighter. We have since added a foot "Go" pedal, to replace the lawn mower style throttle on the first ones.

P.S. The power unit pictured is in my living room. 

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I am sure it has been tried but why wouldn't a motor driven shaker box work directly over the hive?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

The Honey Householder said:


> Bee blower all the way. We stack all the honey off the hives and then blow them out when were done pulling. Most the bees go home when the honey flow is on. Really only blowing out the last 20-25% of the bees.


+1. Tip up the boxes and go for lunch or a nearby yard for an hour and then come back and blow out the stragglers.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

zhiv9 said:


> Tip up the boxes and go for lunch or a nearby yard for an hour


I did it my first time and it worked great. The second time they did not come out and the war began. In the confusion I mixed up the boxes and made one hive queenless. Never again.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

zhiv9 said:


> +1. Tip up the boxes and go for lunch or a nearby yard for an hour and then come back and blow out the stragglers.


Strike this post from the record. It is a VERY BAD IDEA! In my area right now if I even act sweet my bees will be on me like stink on you know what. Honey supers should be removed or depopulated in a manner that will not allow robbing to start. Once it starts it is nearly impossible to continue pulling supers and the best thing to do is open ALL the hives and even shift boxes so the internals are exposed. Hopefully the bees will return and decide to stay home for a while and defend the fort. Maybe you did your honey removal this way and there was still a flow on in which case you can literally take out every frame and call all the bees very bad names and not get stung. If the flow is slow or, like my area, non existent then this idea will possibly give you a good lunch but will almost definitely make you wish you skipped that meal.
Lunch is a waste of time anyway but that's just my opinion and it has nothing to do with bees, honey robbing or anything else in this thread come to think of it.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

challenger said:


> Strike this post from the record. It is a VERY BAD IDEA!


You and Brian seemed to have missed the post I responded to that indicated that a FLOW was on. This makes a all the difference. With a flow on, the bees ignore the supers and the majority of foragers simply vacate and return to the hive. Simply blow out the few bees that are left. Pulling honey in a dearth is a different story. Its a bit more like pull-blow-cover. I still prefer mechanical removal to chemical. Escapes are great, but they require an extra trip to the yard that I generally don't have time for.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Yes I did miss it which is another lesson. Someone that may be new may not go through the entire thread and they see someone write what you wrote and go do as you suggest and are hammered with a rob out. I missed the thread you spoke about and I'm sorry about that but the same applies IMO. I'm not being critical of you. I'm just trying to make sure people know


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Greg Lowe said:


> Shake them off.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idNlC3roDTU
> Don shows you how he does it in the first 2 minutes.


The frames are not 100% clean of bees and he put the frames in a closed box @ 100 degrees. I don't know if his end game is to kill those few bees or not but I wouldn't take that box in the house. There always seems to be two steps required be it shaking or leaving the boxes upright or bee escapes. You can brush the few remainders or gently blow them off, your choice. I am thinking ... would it be better to combine the two methods? Build a device that shakes the whole box with a gentle breeze from above directly into the hive.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Hey Ace, why don't you go and build one and we will see if it sells better than our invention.

Crazy Roland


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Don't forget to include a 4 gallon bucket in the patent. :thumbsup: (Just keep the running gag running. Hope you don't take it too serious.)


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland, what is your patent number? I want to make sure I don't infringe on anything.

Hey I am just wondering about pouring bees through a QE, do drones fit through it or does it sieve them out too?


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Roland, what is your patent number? I want to make sure I don't infringe on anything.
> 
> Hey I am just wondering about pouring bees through a QE, do drones fit through it or does it sieve them out too?


Serious question???


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ace, My father did not patent it, besides, the article is from 1966, which is more than 7(?) years ago, so any patents would have expired.

Do Drones fit through an excluder???? You should get a Gov't grant to study that one.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

My guess is they don't so when you pour through a QE you will have a number of drones mixed in with the queen. And I suspect there will be a number of worker bees that won't leave the queen.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

If your drones won't easily fit through the excluder, you don't have a powerful enough blower.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I have tried it all, brushing, blowing, knocking. Nothing beats Bee Quick, a couple of fume boards, and a sunny day.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

odfrank said:


> If your drones won't easily fit through the excluder, you don't have a powerful enough blower.


Ha! LMAO at that one! What a visual. A bunch of drones getting blasted through an excluder. Only blasted partially though


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

odfrank said:


> If your drones won't easily fit through the excluder, you don't have a powerful enough blower.


Huh? Drones thru an excluder? What have I missed in 40+ years of beekeeping?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Huh? Drones thru an excluder? What have I missed in 40+ years of beekeeping? 

ODFrank's sense of humor?


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

I have found that taking the full super off and leaving it in the garage with the door open will get it emptyed virtually effortlessly on the beekeepers part. :scratch:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Huh? Drones thru an excluder? 

I think that was OD _tweaking _Ace, based on posts #57 and #60.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Ross said:


> I have tried it all, brushing, blowing, knocking. Nothing beats Bee Quick, a couple of fume boards, and a sunny day.


To each his own, I love using a blower. I place the super on a metal chair (that had the back cut out (the frame is still there.)) The chair fronts the hive. A couple of passes with the blower (I've a backpack blower to which I've attached a long 4" vacuum hose with a pointed nozzle) the bees are blown out, the super placed in the truck .......... and away we go!

I will use a fume board on occasion, but not often...


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Not about to knock those who are happy with their bee blowers, if it's working for you that's great. We use bee go and wind boxes and for my money they are the greatest invention since the fork lift. 3 men with 10 boxes typically pull 500+ Mediums a day. On a nice day the bees come out faster than you can take boxes off. With proper handling smell is simply not an issue, Nary a whiff in the extracting room.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> We use bee go and wind boxes


Jim,
Got a pic of the "wind box?"


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

snl said:


> Jim,
> Got a pic of the "wind box?"


http://s470.photobucket.com/user/jimlyon/media/Mobile Uploads/1406256163_zps32d0528a.jpg.html
http://s470.photobucket.com/user/jimlyon/media/Mobile Uploads/1406256157_zps9c3007a9.jpg.html


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Do you set the box on the top and blow or put the box on the bottom and vacuum?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks Jim for the pics. I'll have to make one and try it! I'm guessing that the fabric sits down inside the windbox a couple of inches?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Yup, on top. Use a fairly good quality cotton sheet fabric set it mid box, sprinkle your chemical, aim the elbow into the wind as needed and in a couple minutes the bees are gone. If there are lots of bees on the top bars it's best to set the box askew for a minute to keep from stunning them.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks Jim...
Do you think burlap would work as the fabric? Just stapled to the sides? Also, does the elbow just slide into the hole or is connected (afixed) in some manner?

Larry


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> Yup, on top. Use a fairly good quality cotton sheet fabric set it mid box, sprinkle your chemical, aim the elbow into the wind as needed and in a couple minutes the bees are gone. If there are lots of bees on the top bars it's best to set the box askew for a minute to keep from stunning them.


This goes directly on the hive or on individual boxes of honey?


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## spammy_h (Jul 2, 2014)

odfrank said:


> If your drones won't easily fit through the excluder, you don't have a powerful enough blower.


excluder or extruder? Very funny by the way.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

You are making this too hard Brian, just take the lid off and put the box on.  The nice thing (at least compared to a blower) is that you arent breaking the boxes apart, and tearing the burr comb apart until the bees have already moved below. 
Larry, I suppose a fairly dense weave burlap would probably work but something more absorbent yet still porous like flannel works far better.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I am not making it hard Jim I am trying to get a clear understanding on what you are doing. so the box goes on the hive. How far do the bees go down one, two or three supers?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I just like to give you a hard time Brian. . In ideal conditions (sunny, warm day with a nice gentle breeze and capped honey) it will move bees easily and quickly out of 1 deep. We do mostly mediums and usually pull one and put the (wind) box back on. In good conditions you can pull a second one but if you pull it and there are still bees on the bottom bars then they can get mired in the broken burr comb so it's best to give them another minute or so. Usually 3 or 4 wind boxes will keep one man busy taking off honey supers as fast as you care to pull them.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> I just like to give you a hard time Brian.


Go for it. I am used to it. You have found a way that works for you and I am sure it will work for others. I had to ask enough question so I understood what you are doing. I haven't heard of a wind box and I don't think I am alone. DID YOU PATENT IT?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Now Ace, we all know Mr. Lyon got all that money from his wind patent. Where have you been?

Crazy Roland


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## Propolis (Apr 22, 2014)

Roland,

As the one who originally asked about the blower I am sorry I have not even realized your replied until now. Somehow did not get the notification to look and was still waiting. Anyway thanks a lot. I will probably make one of these. Do you place the whole thing in front of the hive so that the chute points toward the entrance? I would have thought that a gas engine running right in their path would drive them nuts.


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## beejeezers (Oct 17, 2013)

Get a rhombus bee escape . screw it to the underside of a cover / crown board with an eke underneath and leave it for up to 24 hrs by which time almost all the bees , apart from a few stragglers, will have cleared out. Don't mess about with any fancy bee clearing chemical stuff or shaking bees off frames as that is sure way to get them angry !


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Do you place the whole thing in front of the hive so that the chute points toward the entrance?

Our hives are paired on stands. The roof, innercover, and any not full supers are stacked on the roof, at about the 4 O'clock position with the hive in the center of the clock, you facing the side of the hive. The full super is placed on it's narrow side, in the 8 O'clock position. The blower is then brought up to about the 10 O'clock, or 7 O'clock position, the full super placed on it, and bes blown on the ground. Less than a minute is needed, and I have never noticed any issue with the returning field bees. 

Crazy Roland


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## Propolis (Apr 22, 2014)

As far as wind force needed. How much is needed? The Rigid product mentioned (electric) makes a 180 mph wind. Would that do it with your box design?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Possobly, but i doubt it would do a good job. It may have hte velocity, but not the volume. The original had 5 H.P. 2 cycle engines. What H.P. is the electric?

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

It has high velocity because the nozzle is small. If he put a nozzle that is long and thin like a shop vac nozzle for a wet floor it may create enough of an air knife that he could slide across the top of the bars doing each space between the bars one at a time. I don't know if this will work because I don't know the static pressure of the blower he is using.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Jim,
Is that a 4" or 6" 90 you have on the WB? Do you secure it or just stick it in the opening?


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## dfortune (Aug 10, 2012)

I just shake the bees off 1 frame at a time. Pulled 8,000 lbs so far this year with this method.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

dfortune said:


> I just shake the bees off 1 frame at a time. Pulled 8,000 lbs so far this year with this method.


That's a "whole lotta shakin going on!"


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

snl said:


> Jim,
> Is that a 4" or 6" 90 you have on the WB? Do you secure it or just stick it in the opening?


4". We cut the opening so they friction fit and can be pulled out if needed to stack or haul any distance.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

snl said:


> Jim,
> Is that a 4" or 6" 90 you have on the WB? Do you secure it or just stick it in the opening?


4". We just cut the plywood so they friction fit and can be pulled out if needed to stack or haul. It's pretty amazing how little chemical is needed with these, start with just a little before deciding if you need more. If you hear a roar when you put the box on then you overdosed them and the box should be gapped for a few minutes to allow a top escape so they don't get stunned. As an average our usage is about a gallon of honey robber to pull 50,000 lbs. of honey or around 1,500 mediums and unless you bring your wind boxes and chemical inside you should never smell it in the building. Also if your application methods are neat your hands should never smell at the end of the day. We always fashion a handle on our sprinkle bottle.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I video'ed honey removal today, with both an electric blower and gas. And with both a Dadant stand and a revolving table.

http://youtu.be/72-wgA3BA-Q

http://youtu.be/4C3iJwh3lAI


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Very educational videos. The production quality is unbelievable. I would have never guessed that you needed to point the end of the blower hose at the bees in the supers.

You may want to be sure that the person with the video camera (second video) is not intoxicated or under the influence of methamphetamine.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>I would have never guessed that you needed to point the end of the blower hose at the bees in the supers.

Charlie, it gives me great satisfaction knowing I was able to teach you one of the tricks of the trade.

If you bring me down a few tabs of LSD, a line of meth or a few joints of NorCal Sins, I would be glad to continue your education on the little known secrets of beekeeping I can convey.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

odfrank said:


> I video'ed honey removal today, with both an electric blower and gas.


I was wondering if you remade the nozzle so it was the full width of the frame would it have enough velocity to push out the bees between frames. Has anyone tried to improve on the nozzle design?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>I was wondering if you remade the nozzle so it was the full width of the frame would it have enough velocity to push out the bees between frames.

What do you think the videos show? They show two different blowers blowing the bees out of the supers and out from between the frames

Blowing bees does not take an design by an MIT educated engineer. I have been doing it since I was about 20 (1970) and I am no rocket scientist, just ask Charlie B. See his comments in #95 . In fact, I have no more than a high school diploma, a Californian Contractors license, and a California drivers license.

For the gas blower I used to used a crevice nozzle, orifice ID 3/4" X 2". I now use a round nozzle, orifice 15/16" ID. For the Ridgid electric blower vac, I use the leaf blower nozzle that came with it. These are shown in the videos and attached picture. I have also used just the 2 1/2" extension pipe.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ace wrote:

I was wondering if you remade the nozzle so it was the full width of the frame would it have enough velocity to push out the bees between frames.

I imagine if you widen the nozzle by a factor of 5, you would need 5 times the H.P. to maintain the same velocity. This would dictate a significant increase in overall weight of the blower. Why don't you build one, and see how it sells.

Ours sold well.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

After all this time and you guys are still trying to get your bees out of your supers? I would have thought y'all were finished extracting by now.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> I imagine if you widen the nozzle by a factor of 5, you would need 5 times the H.P. to maintain the same velocity.


I don't know if you are familiar with an "air knife"? They are used to blow articles off from conveyor belts. Yes you widen the nozzle by a factor of 5 but you also want to narrow the slit so the volume of air (cfm) is the same. That will result in the same air velocity and HP. It should be much more effective in blowing off the bees on top of the frames and far more effective in blowing them out between the frame. However I know how religious you are about not making any changes but others might be interested in being smarter.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> However I know how religious you are about not making any changes but others might be interested in being smarter.


Hmmm, maybe you didn't mean it this way, but, Smarter? Roland or Brian? When it comes to bees, Brian, I gotta go w/ Roland. Sorry.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

This recent Ace comment speaks volumes ....



Acebird said:


> Yes Mark, that is how my mind works, half ****ed and fully armed.



.... course, _Roland _was referring to moving large volumes of [likely _warm_] air, so Ace just might be expert about _that_.



:gh:


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> After all this time and you guys are still trying to get your bees out of your supers? I would have thought y'all were finished extracting by now.


I have quit extracting while I re-design my blowers. I am awaiting bids from three different engineers on what they will charge me. The honey will just have to wait. Hope it doesn't granulate or robbing get started. How fast do engineers work?


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

odfrank said:


> >I was wondering if you remade the nozzle so it was the full width of the frame would it have enough velocity to push out the bees between frames.
> 
> What do you think the videos show? They show two different blowers blowing the bees out of the supers and out from between the frames
> 
> ...


I think the proper terminology for shop-vac accessories are as follows:

1. Attachment

2. Nozzle

3. Crevice Tool

4. Wand

5. Micro cleaning attachment

Not orifice!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Charlie B said:


> I think the proper terminology for shop-vac accessories are as follows:
> 1. Attachment2. Nozzle3. Crevice Tool4. Wand
> 5. Micro cleaning attachmenNot orifice!


Charlie, one does not have to be a big orofice like you to know what proper vac terminology is.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> After all this time and you guys are still trying to get your bees out of your supers? I would have thought y'all were finished extracting by now.


It's taking me a while......... using tweezers!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ace; What pressure does the typical air knife operate at? Do you have a specific brand you work with?

Crazy and obviously not smart enough, Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

That has to do with how heavy the article is that you are trying to blow off a conveyor and how wide the conveyor is. The range might be 30-90 psi. I am not suggesting an actual air knife because you are not trying to cut the bees in half and secondly you need volume not pressure.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> When it comes to bees, Brian, I gotta go w/ Roland. Sorry.


Don't be sorry, I would to. However we are discussing engineering principles that may benefit a beekeeper. Most people come to BS to exchange ideas.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Propolis said:


> Bee escapes are not for me because they take several hours to work right?


I primarily use bee escapes. I use a screen board with Lewis type conical type escapes. I will leave the boards on for two day, virtually all the bees are gone. 
Advantages are it ties into a loading arm system which eliminates all lifting in the yards, does not require chemical, it does not disturb the hive and work can be done through most weather conditions. 
Disadvantages are it requires two trips to the yard, they have to be on for two days and later in the season robbing can become an issue if your equipment is not tight.

I use escapes from start to finish. I HATE robbing frenzies. We will work a yard in 30 min, robbing frenzies are a non issue


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ace, and how effective is this air knife at 12" from the nozzle?

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Don't be sorry, I would to. However we are discussing engineering principles that may benefit a beekeeper. Most people come to BS to exchange ideas.


I have no problem w/ ideas of practical improvement, but if what already exists works and works well, isn't the answer to the question posed by the thread something that already exists, not something one may fantasize about and never do? 

That is what I often find strange about things discussed by some on beesource, not the things that are tried and true, but that people who are not going to apply what they think might be a better way coming up w/ ideas that they have never tried themselves or never will and don't know of or have experience w/ ways that do work.

In your opinion, what is the best way to get bees out of supers for extracting currently used by beekeepers?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> but if what already exists works and works well, isn't the answer to the question posed by the thread something that already exists,


Inccandescent bulbs existed for many years and worked well. Now they are going by the way side.


> That is what I often find strange about things discussed by some on beesource, not the things that are tried and true, but that people who are not going to apply what they think might be a better way coming up w/ ideas that they have never tried themselves or never will and don't know of or have experience w/ ways that do work.


What I find strange is someone who has been in the business for so long would rather bury his head in the sand rather than take part in a discussion that may better future beekeepers. It is probably the only chance that they would have to be a part of a think tank and pass on what they know as apposed to ranting about what future beekeepers should do.


> In your opinion, what is the best way to get bees out of supers for extracting currently used by beekeepers?


All of the current methods suggested is the best. Not all beekeeping is the same. There are people with varying numbers of hives from 1 to 10,000 maybe more. The procedures for one is not going to fit well for others.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> Ace, and how effective is this air knife at 12" from the nozzle?
> 
> Crazy Roland


How would I know that? I have never made a nozzle for blowing bees off from supers because I don't do that method. In theory though a concentrated line of air will act like a venturi and suck in more air between the frames so the volume of air passing between the frames would be greater then what comes out of the nozzle. That is not going to happen with a vacuum cleaner nozzle because of turbulent flow. As a matter of fact much less air that comes out of the nozzle will actually go between the frames. Secondly, not everyone uses deeps for supers. Mediums are only 6 1/4 deep. No need to go 12.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

My hot room also has windows which draw any tag along to the window light. Lights are off in the hot room, lots of window light.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If you left the windows open for a short while do you think the bees could get out and return to the hives or do you feel it is so few that it doesn't matter if they die?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I have catch hives outside. But I keep the windows closed when robbing starts


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Air knives: http://www.mcmaster.com/#air-knives/=tjgd11

In my other job we use them a lot to clear debris, chips, flash etc from earlier processes.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> All of the current methods suggested is the best. Not all beekeeping is the same. There are people with varying numbers of hives from 1 to 10,000 maybe more. The procedures for one is not going to fit well for others.


That which works persists. So far you have made no suggestions which make improvements to what already exists. It has nothing to do w/ sticking one's head in the sand. It is up to you to show that what you suggest is an improvement. But you are never going to do that. Only talk about it.

I believe you meant to write, "All of the current methods [are] the best." So, if they are the best, what makes you think you can improve them w/out making improvements and showing us how those improvements actually improve that which already works just fine.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> How would I know that? I have never made a nozzle for blowing bees off from supers because I don't do that method.
> 
> Mediums are only 6 1/4 deep.


Then why don't you write about something you do know something about?

Medium depth supers are not 6 1/4 inches deep. They are 6 5/8 inches deep.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ace, it is time you put your money where your mouth is. Buy an air knife, try it out vs. what is available, and report back. 

When we built the first blower, we played around with a couple different nozzle designs, and the flattened tube worked best.
Is it possible we missed a better design? Maybe, but I have never had anyone say that a different design was tested and worked better.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I like the flattened tube nozzle, fits between the frames nice and keeps the air pressure down.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Roland said:


> Ace, it is time you put your money where your mouth is. Buy an air knife, try it out vs. what is available, and report back.
> 
> Crazy Roland


All hat, no cattle.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Then why don't you write about something you do know something about and something you do?
> 
> Medium depth supers are not 6 1/4 inches deep. They are 6 5/8 inches deep.


OMG I bet that will make a world of difference.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The difference it makes is that it illustrates that you continue to write about things you don't know anything or much about. Three eighths of an inch makes a lot of difference when it comes to beekeeping. That's something you should know.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

It is really simple Mark, you should like that, whoever has an interest in blowing bees out of their supers (not the ones who are going to buy Roland's contraption of course) can experiment with a nozzle as wide as the frames and see if it works for them. They can come here on BS and say if they had better luck or they found the vacuum nozzle as it is made worked better for them. Maybe Roland is a genius and he experimented with every possible combination that could ever be tried. So far I haven't seen it. All I have seen is the video that Odfrank has provided. Maybe Ian can take a picture of this flattened tube nozzle that he likes. Is it the Rolland design? I don't know.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> It is really simple Mark, you should like that, whoever has an interest in blowing bees out of their supers (not the ones who are going to buy Roland's contraption of course) can experiment with a nozzle as wide as the frames and see if it works for them. They can come here on BS and say if they had better luck or they found the vacuum nozzle as it is made worked better for them.


They? You are the one bringing up ideas of improvement. You are the they that should do what you are proposing.

Roland's family already did all the design work that brought us what is currently the industry standard. If you think that improvements can be made or need to be made then it is up to you to show us. You may consider me a simpleton, fine, but that doesn't further your argument.

What do you mean by a nozzle as wide as the frames? A nozzle the same size as the inside dimensions of the box? I don't know what you mean. Do you?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Forty post ago I mentioned an idea and now you have no idea what I am talking about? And you are arguing what point exactly? I should make it, take a picture and patent it so you can understand what it is all about? Maybe somebody got the drift...


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Forty post ago I mentioned an idea and now you have no idea what I am talking about? And you are arguing what point exactly? I should make it, take a picture and patent it so you can understand what it is all about? Maybe somebody got the drift...


Yes you should make it. Along with all the other 'creative designs' you have offered on such a regular basis. Build it, if you can.

The drift I get is one of disbelief in how frequently your posts take on a condescending tone.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Forty post ago I mentioned an idea and now you have no idea what I am talking about? And you are arguing what point exactly?


My point is I don't think *you* know what you are talking about. And that you only want to talk about it and advocate that someone else do something you yourself have no intention of doing.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> Maybe Ian can take a picture of this flattened tube nozzle that he likes. Is it the Rolland design? I don't know.


Ill let you in on the secret Ace... its not the nozzle so much as the technique of blowing them out between the frames. Its kind of a jerking motion that dislodges the bees from the frames. A simple flat 3-4 inch nozzle works great for that.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ian wrote;

......the technique of blowing them out between the frames. Its kind of a jerking motion that dislodges the bees from the frames. 

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

It is not the force, but the sudden application of force that dislodges the bee. Do an experiment. Slowly bring he air speed up on an anchored bee. I believe we found that she could withstand 200 M.P.H. Move the air away, reapply, and she is gone.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

the blower I use ( from time to time ) is a cattle show blower, which I modified to fit my preferred nozzle. The nozzle that was originally on narrowed down to a smaller hole to provide more force to blow cattle hair dry. When used on the bees it blew the bees hard and damaged them too much. That is why I switched to a larger rectangle nozzle. It blows them gently and fast.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian said:


> Its kind of a jerking motion that dislodges the bees from the frames. A simple flat 3-4 inch nozzle works great for that.


 That was going to be my next topic of discussion but I got so much flack from just mentioning the first idea I didn't get to it. I was thinking of a rotary valve in the supply hose (like a shower head) to create pulses of air. Or maybe it could be as simple as a trigger that the beekeeper can pull to control the cycle rate.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> That was going to be my next topic of discussion but I got so much flack from just mentioning the first idea I didn't get to it. I was thinking of a rotary valve in the [HIGHLIGHT]supply hose [/HIGHLIGHT] (like a shower head) to create pulses of air.


:scratch: Supply hose? :s

Supplying air from what source? Now you are bringing a _compressor _to the beeyard? :lpf:
How big is that compressor going to be to supply enough air for a 19" wide air knife?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Even more simple than that, Brian. As Roland wrote, "Move the air away, reapply, and she is gone." No special modification needed. Simpler is better ya know. Makes things more universally usable for all levels of knowledge and expertise.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> And that you only want to talk about it and advocate that someone else do something you yourself have no intention of doing.


In post #88 I made a suggestion. I stated that I didn't know if it would work. I could care less if anyone tries the suggestion.

Ian if the nozzle is the full length of the frame and you slide it across the top of the frames you would get those pulses of air as the nozzle went from the top bar to the opening between frames just like you do by waving the nozzle you have. Would it be enough? Again, I don't know. If it was enough it would definitely be quicker.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> Would it be enough? Again, I don't know. If it was enough it would definitely be quicker.


I doubt it. Think of the forced air from the blower as a bee brush but quicker. you sweep the bees off the frames as you leaf through the frames. It takes 20 seconds per box. 

KISS ---->>> Keep it simple stupid, lol


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The odfrank video was over 2 minutes long and it appeared to me that not all the bees were out. That is what started me thinking, how long it took.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Acebird said:


> The odfrank video was over 2 minutes long and it appeared to me that not all the bees were out. That is what started me thinking, how long it took.


I reviewed the videos and the gas blown super took 1 1/2 minutes with the hose blowout, and the electric took 1 minute 8 seconds with the electric blower. I know we did 1.25 ton in two hours a few years ago so that would be about 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 minutes each all inclusive. Having been a labor paying contractor and honey producer for over 40 years I never felt the actual blowing time was excessive. There can be big variables between medium and deep supers, how many bees are in the supers, and how much brace and burr comb there is. I am satisfied that it eliminates chemicals and fume boards and fumes, and the double lifting and visits of escape boards, methods that would take as much or more time. We pull the crop, do little damage to the bees and crop, and go home. Done deal. We use blowers we already own for other purposes so no special equipment is purchased. 

When you take into consideration the time making the hives, supering the hives, loading and unloading the truck, driving to the site, eating lunch, taking a leak, extracting and bottling the honey etc.....a few second saved in the blowing time is irrelevant and both me and the other beekeepers on this thread who are much more experienced than Ace, should be embarrassed we waste so much time discussing his irrelevant ideas with him.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ian said:


> I doubt it. Think of the forced air from the blower as a bee brush but quicker. you sweep the bees off the frames as you leaf through the frames. It takes 20 seconds per box.


This has been my experience using a larger Stihl backpack blower with just the ~3" nozzle it came with. Burr comb can slow things down a little sometimes if its really bad. Sometimes you get a couple of bees that want to really hold on. I could see how nozzle design might be more important with a smaller, lower power blower.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

odfrank said:


> a few second saved in the blowing time is irrelevant


You take a minute in a half and Ian does it in twenty seconds and that you call irrelevant. Should there be a better nozzle design that drops the time to 10 seconds, this is also irrelevant? I will never understand this kind of thinking. The automobile industry makes millions on millisecond time savings and the stock market reaps billions on nanosecond savings in time.

zhiv9, when you mention burr comb, where exactly is it? Does Ian have a good idea of placing the supers in a dark building with a window that attracts the stragglers? The window could be set up as an escapement to let the bees out.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Acebird said:


> zhiv9, when you mention burr comb, where exactly is it?


Sometimes they build it between the top bars. this gives the bees a place to hide or they end up blown against it and not out.



Acebird said:


> Does Ian have a good idea of placing the supers in a dark building with a window that attracts the stragglers? The window could be set up as an escapement to let the bees out.


Yes, I plan to do this with my hot room - dark with 1 small window.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> You take a minute in a half and Ian does it in twenty seconds


boxes brought to me, set up and taken away of course.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

zhiv9 said:


> Sometimes they build it between the top bars. this gives the bees a place to hide or they end up blown against it and not out.


I have a lot of burr comb so that is another reason why I don't try to blow them out.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Besides not having a blower? And less than 5 hives?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mark, I got plenty of blowers but I am down to one hive now.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

:scratch: What happened to "_split like crazy"_? :s


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