# Is summer dearth the time to make splits?



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I would make side by side splits at the very beginning of the next strong flow (goldenrod in PA). To me, "side by side" means that one colony gets the original location and the original queen. Then colony next door gets all of the comb, brood and honey.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Make your splits using mated queens. Feed the colonies that you split from and your splits. The idea behind summer dearth splits, depending on location and length of dearth, is because you don't need a large population in a hive eating all the honey they have. The splits and mother colonies are now put back into build up mode so when the next flow comes they don't swarm. Instead they will make you honey if they have ample time to build back up strength.


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## Fred Bee (May 5, 2007)

We are in a dearth time in my area and I made a split or two. Immediately after the split, I fed both hives...as many have suggested in other posts, the original and the other split. Still, I have had problems with robbing. I think in the future, I will make my splits during the flow.


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## beecuz (Apr 14, 2010)

If I don't buy a mated queen, but would prefer the bees to make their own queen, is there enough time for that during the dearth if the fall flow starts in...say, September? And if I do that, about how many frames of brood and honey should go into the first split?


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Splitting depends on hive, hive strength and numbers. I have made 2 in the last 3 days and both are doing well. I still say we have stayed on a small flow due to the dandelions and where you are in Fla, I'd say you are ok as well. Mine are still bringing in plenty of Nectar and pollen. If you are going to have to feed, feed inside the hive using a baggie feeder or out open feeding. Open feeding causes a frenzy in my yard, BUT, there is no robbing for sure. They have not taken feed this year at all even though i tried....so all seems to be doing good.


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## FRAMEshift (Jun 27, 2010)

beecuz said:


> If I don't buy a mated queen, but would prefer the bees to make their own queen, is there enough time for that during the dearth if the fall flow starts in...say, September? And if I do that, about how many frames of brood and honey should go into the first split?


It depends on how strong your Fall flow is. I don't know anything about overwintering in north Florida. In general, the advantage of doing a split is that you can decrease the number of bees eating stores during the dearth and you can break the brood cycle to knock back mites. But the idea is to get the minimum number of bees in the middle of the dearth. So you need to do the split about 2 months before the worst part of the dearth (assuming they are making a new queen themselves.) 

I like to move the old queen, 3 frames of brood and two frames of honey to a new hive. Leave most of the resources in the old hive so they can make a strong queen and the mites will get whacked.


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## clarkfarm (Apr 13, 2009)

The Virginia State Apiarist spoke at my bee association meeting this week. He stated that he does not recommend that any new beekeeper do splits after May 1. From the posts so far on this thread, it does sound like you need to have gone through at least year of beekeeping in order to pick up on all the little details of doing this successfully -- like mated queens rather than queen cells and so forth.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

May I ask why he said this? Mated Queens vs queen cells.....other than the factor of time? There is benefit in both IMHO.


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## FRAMEshift (Jun 27, 2010)

clarkfarm said:


> The Virginia State Apiarist spoke at my bee association meeting this week. He stated that he does not recommend that any new beekeeper do splits after May 1. From the posts so far on this thread, it does sound like you need to have gone through at least year of beekeeping in order to pick up on all the little details of doing this successfully -- like mated queens rather than queen cells and so forth.


I think that rather than make a blanket recommendation based on how long a beekeeper has been in the game, it would be better to just specify what pitfalls are likely to be encountered. Some people learn faster than others, so years of experience is a weak indicator. 

If you add a mated queen at the time of the split, you don't get any break in the brood cycle. So what was the point of the regime change?

Does the Virginia Apiarist's May 1 date apply in Florida as well?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If you split out the queen and a minimal amt of resources for her to get by and leave a strong queenless hive in the old location you will get several results that are good during a dearth:

The strong queenless hive will have a better chance of making a good queen than if you did an equal split.

The strong hive will have almost all of the foragers and will be broodless for a few weeks so it will be more able to feed itself during the dearth.

During the broodless period is a good time to do something about varroa - before the big fall build up. Even if you don't do any treatments you might see a positive effect on the mite population because when the new queen first starts producing, a lot of the existing mites will parasitize the first little batch of brood - killing it along with the mites.

Assuming that the queen making is successful you will have a brand new queen laying at her peak right when you need her.

If the queen making is not successful you can recombine them in a few weeks -or order a queen - and still get most of the positive results. Just give a frame of open brood every week or so until you take care of it.

The queen in the small hive will continue to produce but at a lower rate - just like you need her to do this time of year.

You might need to do some equalizing later, but if you have drawn comb to give the smaller hive as it needs it you might not need to do anything but feed them up in the fall.

If you had split earlier you would have sacrificed honey production - whether you harvest or let the bees have it - so splitting during summer dearth instead of during the flow prevents that.

If you have a hive strong enough to split, and the equipment to make the split and you want to do it then I don't see why this isn't as good time as any. Just be prepared to feed, equalize, or combine if you need to - before it is too late.

Just my opinion - take it with a grain of salt if you take it at all.


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## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

Looks like I'm in the minority but in my opinion the answer is no, and for all of the reasons that have you concerned. I will say that if I find a hive that has become queenless I am still giving them brood to try to raise their own queen, but It will come to a point that I'll just unite them with another colony.
Think about how and when nature makes increase. In the spring during the build-up on into the main flow. Why? Because it is at this time of the year that they have the best opportunity to establish themselves to survive the coming winter.
In my area splits now mean vicious robbing, ill bees and intensive care nursing the splits until next spring so that they don't starve.
I realize Fla. is a different animal, I only wish I had the floral sources you may have.
So if you try it, Good Luck. I did a time or two, and you probably will also, hey, It'll be a learning experience.....


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Excuse me for saying it, but isn't all of FL considered africanized? If so, I would certainly NOT be having the bees make their own queen because of the high chance of the virgin queen hooking up with some africanized drones on her mating flight. Much safer to order a mated queen.

I realize that from up here in Maine I know very little about local FL conditions - so I'm having to rely on what news reports have reached me over the years. Things could be very different...


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Not all of Florida is, maily southern...here is a link to the map

http://www.cccarto.com/killerbees/index.html


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## clarkfarm (Apr 13, 2009)

devdog - The apiarist did not make the comment about queens -- someone on this thread did. The talk at the meeting was on making splits. I do not know why the May 1 date was given for new beekeepers. He was speaking to Virginia beekeepers both new ones and experienced and he did not talk about any other state.

In my own humble opinion a new beekeeper should concentrate on getting hives through the winter and if the goal is to interrupt the brood cycle, that can be done without dividing the hive numbers. I do not have the experience of some on the board because this is my third year. But I do think as I have posted on other threads that sometimes new beekeepers lose hives because they try to do too many things with the bees before they have the right knowledge to be successful.( As they say, ask three beekeepers the same question and you will get four answers.) I am speaking for myself here and not the apiarist.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

hey Clark, no offense meant, it just didnt make sense to me why he would discourage splits. NOW, that being said, i am a different climate than you it may seem...warmer most of the time i would think....however....the splits have taught me more than anything only because you really have to pay special attention to the needs of each split and the origional hive. Having to deal with each one indivually has taught me to read each hive as it's own entity and being a 2nd yr beek, i have already learned so much, i cannot imagine what i will learn next. I could go on forever about what each hive has started and represented, my mistakes(not to the detriment of the bees) but things I would not do. Ask a beek, get a beek...LOL. It's all good no matter how you play it, you just have to make sure you have a poker hand in poker, not in 21...LOL


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## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

Digging around in a strong hive in 95-100 degree temps. during a dearth is no fun at all. I dismantled 2 of my strongest hives in the last two weeks because I needed some brood for 2 hives that had been unsuccessful at supersedure. The queens had all but stopped laying because of the dearth, high temps. and a massive bee population, and I had to go thru every frame to get enough brood to give these 2 queenless colonies. It would have been much easier to get what I needed from a couple of colonies that had fresh supersedure queens, but I wanted brood from the best I had. (I have yet to take the advice that they need to be in full sun all day especially here in the south, they roast.)


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Mine are in the full Sun and I am DUE east of you, barely if any temp difference and they do great!


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## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

devdog108 said:


> Mine are in the full Sun and I am DUE east of you, barely if any temp difference and they do great!


I'm hard headed....


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

LOL....they stay in the sun, brood is doing great, and one fo them was raising queens...AGAIN....


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## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

devdog108 said:


> LOL....they stay in the sun, brood is doing great, and one fo them was raising queens...AGAIN....


I could have sure used those queen cells....


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Man, all you had to do was ask.....easy enough. Need a queen, lemme know, Ill raise ya one up. No charge, butcha gotta come get her. Bout 2 hrs...door to door


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## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

devdog108 said:


> Man, all you had to do was ask.....easy enough. Need a queen, lemme know, Ill raise ya one up. No charge, butcha gotta come get her. Bout 2 hrs...door to door


t:
I think you and I have hijacked this thread,but thanks for the offer.


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## Stevebug (Jul 4, 2010)

In response to your question. I have not done any splits so far this year. I did my first one last year and that hive was the one hive that did not make it over winter [it started out gangbusters but I think the long cold snaps did it in]. With that said, this year I want to go the next step and raise queens using the grafting method. I am waiting on the tool but plan on shooting for 28 queens in one four row frame. The reason for my try at this is that I have lost two more hives since spring. It could have been they were old queens (I did not keep good records two years ago and have moved the hives around in my back yard). We too have had a dearth in growth of young bees. One queen rearer said that the bees were already acting like it was late summer and are holding back due to the brutal heat we have had. I tend to agree. I would tend to think that as long as the splits/ new hives had enough pollen and honey to get them going it would be ok. Substitutes would probably work too after they are started but if you start feeding subs keep it up until a fall flow comes on. Our area, I was told does not have a strong fall flow. If you have local beekeepers to talk with, check with them. I have gained a ton of knowledge by joining Richmond Beekeepers Association. If you can talk to some queen rearers in your area that would probably be the best advice. I still say go for it!!


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

My son and I make splits starting in April after our citrus flow and ending in September. When we have cells available we are splitting. We just went through half our splittable hives Saturday and they are full of brood and have nectar coming in from cabbage palm. Grafted Sat evening and just checked the starts this evening. We have about 80 started cells, but I would guess that some will not finish so I'm counting on about 70 cells to work with next weekend. We'll be splitting then and again in August and September. Gotta strike while the iron is hot, my friends! You all know that if they don't work out you can combine them with another, right?


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## beecuz (Apr 14, 2010)

Thanks, guys, for all the advice. Interesting how many schools of thought there are...I appreciate all of it. I guess the bottom line is learning to dance with the bees...and time will tell.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

clarkfarm said:


> The Virginia State Apiarist spoke at my bee association meeting this week. He stated that he does not recommend that any new beekeeper do splits after May 1. From the posts so far on this thread, it does sound like you need to have gone through at least year of beekeeping in order to pick up on all the little details of doing this successfully -- like mated queens rather than queen cells and so forth.


Well that, like most of Virginia, is quite a conservative estimate. Well I guess for a new beekeeper, that advice makes sense, so I back down.

To the original poster... there has been a lot of talk on here about breaking down hives during the dearth and making nucs to overwinter.. not splits that you grow into hives. Is this what you are thinking about? These are also made with mated queens.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

I've always split in the spring. Is the availability of drones not an issue for summer splits? My flow ends the middle of June and there are far fewer drones around after that. Are there enough?


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## jajtiii (Jul 11, 2008)

In my opinion, the bottom line is risk tolerance, a desire to learn and free time. Doing a split during a dearth (in my opinion) has a degree of risk added to it. In addition, one made during a dearth has a high chance (in my area) of demanding a lot more attention then an established hive. Finally, a split during a dearth in my area has a good chance of teaching you a thing or two.

If I were a state apiarist (and I am definitely not), I would recommend low risk and low demand on free time to new beekeepers, as my goal would be to keep them around (I do not know what the average drop out rate is for new beekeepers, but I would want it to be very low in my state.)

In my area, robbing is a very real probability, especially if you have another established hive or two in your yard. Seeing a robbed out hive has been my worst experience in beekeeping so far. That said, I doubt it would have dissuaded me from giving it a go the next year (if it happened in year 1). But, I have a colleague at work that quit beekeeping after one year because the queen that came with her package was not accepted and neither was the second queen that she purchased. One negative experience removed her from the hobby, which is a shame. 

I can personally withstand the risk, will sacrifice the free time (if the wife doesn't hollar too much) and will do everything (including the opposite of what is considered standard practice) just to learn something about bees. But, I can appreciate the thought that not everyone is going to be so enthusiastic.

I would definitely not recommend a split, during the dearth, for a first year beekeeper in my area. In fact, I would counsel strongly against it.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

I've never seen a real dearth in FL, at least the type you're talking about. We have periods of lower nectar flow but always have a little nectar coming in from yard plants, weeds, etc. We have drones available into November so mating isn't a problem. Dave Miksa has mated queens available into November and he's a pretty large queen rearing operation. As I stated, we make splits right in to September and have very good results, as do most of the commercial folks around here. This past winter was bad as far as prolonged cold is concerned, about a month of cold temps. Normally, overwintering here means that some rare days you need blue jeans and a long sleeve shirt, instead of shorts and tee shirts.


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## Bee Draggle (Apr 5, 2006)

It's been my experience that making splits in mid July through August is not a good time generally. This dearth time means you have to feed sugar syrup to the splits and that touches off severe robbing. If you have any strong colonies in the same yard they will pounce on your splits big time.


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## beecuz (Apr 14, 2010)

Actually, this is my second year with hives, though the first year we just left them pretty much alone since we didn't know very much about managing them. Out of three, we lost one at the end of last summer. So, I've been researching a lot and asking a lot of questions. I visit the hives almost on a daily basis, unless I work late at the office and can't get home before dark, just to watch their comings and goings...and try to inspect the hives at least once every 3 to 4 weeks so I familiarize myself with what's happening in the hive. I still don't always know what I am looking at...so much to learn...but I have no intention of dropping out. I am hooked. We now have four hives and I just want them to stay healthy through what I am told is the summer dearth around here, and safe and warm and well fed through the winter. After reading all the suggestions from you guys, I may just wait until spring and then try to do the splits. Hopefull I will be a bit more knowledgeable by then. I'll be staying in touch with you all and will probably have lots more questions! Thanks for all the suggestions. 

Beecuz


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## Drew Martin (Jun 9, 2010)

I will be making nucs up til October around here. The Queens iv been rearing have been fat plump, all summer long. 38 out of 45 cells most of the time.:


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## FRAMEshift (Jun 27, 2010)

heaflaw said:


> I've always split in the spring. Is the availability of drones not an issue for summer splits? My flow ends the middle of June and there are far fewer drones around after that. Are there enough?


I'm a hundred miles northeast of you, but pretty much the same climate and flora. We just had a new queen mate in mid July. No problem. And our hives have plenty of drones, so I'm not sure why you think there would be a shortage. Generally, a moderate percentage of drones (20% of the total population) is a sign of a healthy hive, so as long as it's a generally good year, you can expect plenty of drones. The intense flow may end in mid June, but the dearth doesn't really start for a month after that. And you will continue to see drones emerging that were laid in better times.


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