# pollen patty recipe



## pahvantpiper

Also interested in where to purchase dried egg yolk in bulk. Not sure what the purpose of the potato flakes would be?

-Rob


----------



## Gene Weitzel

Honeyville Food Products out of CA and UT:

50lb dried egg yolk $177.79 ea w/quantity discounts

http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=164

Never ordered from them, but they are a pretty big outfit and mill all their own powdered products.


----------



## Aspera

Why potato flakes? I would think them undigestable to bees. Do they have some nutrient that I'm not aware of?


----------



## beaglady

Check with your bakery supplier where you get fondant for the dried eggs.


----------



## panubee

Bjorn,

A wise beekeeper came to our local beekeeping club this fall. He mentioned that we need at least 20% protein. From the above receipe, the only three sources of protein are the pollen, egg yokes, and pollen substitute (e.g. brewers yeast). The pollen may have 30% protein, the egg yokes 50%, and brewers yeast less than 50%. I believe I calculated about 15 pounds of pollen substitute in the 100 pound receipe. That would yield about 16% protein max.

Did I miss understand that wise beekeeper, or should I not have used the water in the calculation of the percent protein?

Inquiring minds want to understand.

panubee


----------



## Chef Isaac

I have also heard using powdered milk.


----------



## AndrewSchwab

I Have Heard That Egg Yolk Is Not The Correct Protien For The Bees. (although Something Is Better Then Nothing) It Turns Out That (i Think) Canola Oil Fills The Bill For The Protien.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Doesn't egg yolk supply lipids & Vitamins "A" that is highly impotant?

I maybe mistaken but does canola oil fill this?

Vitamin A 1,950 iu/100 g
Mineral K .490%

this was taken from the egg yolk analsis I sell.


----------



## BjornBee

panubee said:


> Bjorn,
> 
> A wise beekeeper came to our local beekeeping club this fall. He mentioned that we need at least 20% protein. From the above recipe, the only three sources of protein are the pollen, egg yokes, and pollen substitute (e.g. brewers yeast). The pollen may have 30% protein, the egg yokes 50%, and brewers yeast less than 50%. I believe I calculated about 15 pounds of pollen substitute in the 100 pound recipe. That would yield about 16% protein max.
> 
> Did I miss understand that wise beekeeper, or should I not have used the water in the calculation of the percent protein?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to understand.
> 
> panubee



Someone was not sleeping I take it. 

Yes, if you look at the ingredients and figure the protein level for a 100# recipe, and factor that at least 50% of the recipe calls for sugar, I would question what the final protein levels actually are. Most brewers yeast I have on file from various suppliers ranges from 40 to 45% protein. Factoring in the honey and other recipe items (water, etc.), I figure its pushing below the 20% limit of possibly falling below that standard. 

I actually did not even think about the totals and what the final analysis or nutritional bases may be for this recipe.

Welcome to Beesource. Great first post.


----------



## Ishi

*Dry egg yoke*

Ballas Egg Products
40 North Second Street
Zanesville, OH 43701


Phone 740-453-0386
Fax 740-453-0491

Last Price quote $3.00 a # for 50# plus shipping.


----------



## Laurence Hope

Why cinnamon? Or powdered propolis, for that matter?


----------



## panubee

*Percent Protein*

Bjorn,

Was the 20% protein not counting sugar and/or water?

Thanks,

panubee


----------



## BjornBee

panubee,
Good question.

I suppose one could look at just the percentages of the protein sources in the ingredients. Pure pollen has little additives, but stored pollen has honey added to make bee bread. So bees do take pollen and add to it.

So should one just look at the protein level of the ingredients and not factor in sugar, water, etc. I'm not sure. But I do think that the more the bees need to internally process beyond what would be required for protein may add to dysentery and a lower absorption rate.
How that effects not just the bees ability to process and absorb proteins, but the larvae they feed, I don't know.

How adding these ingredients change the protein levels, absorption rates, and other factors is beyond me.

I do know that if a pollen source is something like 10% protein, then its not a matter of bees just eating twice as much to get to the 20% level. If the protein level in the pollen sub goes below 20%, then internal stores will be used. Your bees will be on a diet for all purposes.

How all that is effected by "diluting" your protein source with many ingredients and fillers, I'm not sure.

Anyone?

Even if bees "lick" or somehow separate out the sugars and protein, in some way to feed a stronger level, it makes your pollen sub an expensive way to feed sugar.

The beginning recipe on this thread has way more carbs than protein, thats for sure.


----------



## Maine_Beekeeper

this recipe has worked well for me - the bees love it both wet and dry in open feeder. 
I don't make it as wet as he suggests, I make it more like cookie dough than like peanut butter - the peanut butter version seems too runny to me, at least it was in my ob hive... (please excuse the caps - I'm avoiding re-typing...)

The multi-season pollen substitute formula is:
FOUR CUPS SUGAR (carbohydrate)
TWO CUPS WATER
THREE CUPS EXPELLER PROCESS SOYBEAN FLOUR (protein)
ONE AND A HALF-CUP BREWERS YEAST (oxidizer & energizer)
TWO TEASPOONS SALT (SEA SALT OR MINERAL IS PREFERRED) (bees areanimals and animals need salt)
ONE-TEASPOON 'FRUIT FRESH' (or dry vitamin C) (Found in canning and freezing sectionat your grocery store)
SIX TABLESPOONS DRY MILK POWDER (Calcium & enzymes)
SIX ANTIOXIDENT VITAMINS (Available at any Drug store) (Gel caps)
MELT SUGAR IN WATER AND SET ASIDE TO COOL. THEN CUT OPEN
THE ANTI-OXIDANT GEL CAPS AND STIR THE CONTENTS INTO THE LIQUID.
THOROUGHLY BLEND THE DRY INGREDIENTS AND THEN ADD THE
COOLED SUGAR-WATER MIX TO THE BLEND AND STIR UNTIL A SOFT
DOUGH IS FORMED. (Like soft peanut butter)
DIVIDE THE DOUGH INTO DESIRED SIZE PORTIONS. I USE HAMBURGER
SIZE PATTIES IN WINTER FOR BUILD-UP

All ingredients are readily available at most grocery stores - I'm sure you can also buy them bulk.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Chef Isaac said:


> Keith:
> 
> A question.... for your pollen patties (at your cost), what is your cost per patty? Say a 1 pound patty.


Your killing me Chef.


----------



## Grant

FWIW: Most animal diets are calculated on a "dry matter basis." This means you take out the percentage and weight of the water to calculate the actual protein percentage. The water only obscures the weight, and since it has no nutritional value, doesn't really change the real nutritional content, except when you try and estimate based on weight.

Grant
Jackson, MO (animal science degree from Iowa State University)


----------



## BjornBee

Grant,
So is the 50 lbs sugar counted dry or wet? What about the other ingredients?

How does one calculate the recipe in the first post in regards to protein percentage?

Thanks.


----------



## Chef Isaac

Keith:

Honest question. I ask because I am debating on if it is cheaper to buy premade from Mann Lake (what I have been using) or make my own. I know your numbers will be different since you buy in bulk but I am curious as to the price per portion. I think I pay around $3.00 for a a pound patty.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Chef Isaac said:


> Keith:
> 
> Honest question. I ask because I am debating on if it is cheaper to buy premade from Mann Lake (what I have been using) or make my own. I know your numbers will be different since you buy in bulk but I am curious as to the price per portion. I think I pay around $3.00 for a a pound patty.


Chef, if you use a mann lake patty ask them how much sugar is in it??

I think you will find that you can mix your own cheaper.

Last time I checked sugar was around $.35 LB.


----------



## Chef Isaac

Interesting really. I would love to get a Hobart mixer and mix some up. Do you keep yours in the freezer? How thick/firm do you make yours? The ones from Mann Lke melt quickly... even when it is cold out. 

I do have another question which I hope you will answer. Do you put natrual pollen in your patties?


----------



## Keith Jarrett

>Do you put natrual pollen in your patties?

Chef, I don't, unless the keeper want it in there, but I try not to.

If you make it right there's really no need.

I think by now you have a good feel for what a pollen patty should have in it, Heck, mix it at work.


----------



## Chef Isaac

Keith:

Was thinking about that, I could see my boss: "so what ya making?" HMM.... nothing.....  

have you ever heard of any negative effect when using powdered milk?


----------



## JBJ

AndrewSchwab said:


> I Have Heard That Egg Yolk Is Not The Correct Protien For The Bees. (although Something Is Better Then Nothing) It Turns Out That (i Think) Canola Oil Fills The Bill For The Protien.


Howdy Andrew, if I recall correctly from Doc Mussen's talk the canola was to supply the precursors to sterol needed by the bees. Something about easy de-methylation of 24-mythelene cholesterol from the easily digestible canola. I think it was supposed to be easier on the bees than egg yolk, although the yolk may provide other valuable nutrients.

He also recommended no lactose...milk sugar.

Has anybody experimented with some of the oils higher antioxidants, such as flax?


----------



## JBJ

Chef you could rent a mortar mixer for a day and probably make all you need for the season in one batch. We easily made 4, 450lb "loafs" this fall in an afternoon. I will have to post some pics when I can get to them.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Chef,

I am going to give you a lab report on my collected pollen. 


Bee Pollen 
1 Tablespoon=9.85 grams 

PROXIMATE ANALYSIS.. RESULTS....RESULTS......UNITS
..................................(/100g).....(/tablespoon) 

..........Fat...................... 6.02......	0.59...... g
.........Total Solids......... 82.07....	8.08...... g
.........Protein................ 21.56....	2.12...... g
.........Ash.................... 2.46......	0.24...... g
.........Carbohydrates..... 52.03....	5.12...... g
.........Calories from Fat.. 54.........	5........	calories
.........Calories............... 348.......	34......	calories


Hey Chef, just copy this, it's that simple. It's just Mother Nature


----------



## stangardener

for chef isaac,
i've been using mann lakes bee-pro versus their pre made patties for dollar savings.
not only is bee-pro $1 a pound i'm not paying the patty price for the liquad in the patties.
for me the "hassle" of mixing up my own patties is offset by my being able to use the same product dry in an open feeder.
i'm not recomending bee-pro for it's particular ingrediants. at a buck a pound it is convieniant and the bees eat it. i trust it helps them more than hurts them.


----------



## Chef Isaac

stranger: Good points. So you just feed them dry? and open feed them? 

Keith and JBJ: Do you all have to place the patties in the freeze or in a cooler?


----------



## stangardener

Chef Isaac said:


> stranger: Good points. So you just feed them dry? and open feed them?
> 
> in the middle of january i started putting patties in the hive. as soon as the bees were flying i put dry out in empty supers. by about the first of march there was plenty of natural pollen and stopped feeding.
> at the start of august i put patties on nucs and extra help hives and the first of september started open feeding.
> it's way to soon to tell but i feel pretty good about this fall going into winter.


----------



## BjornBee

For those who missed it, here is a picture of bees open feeding on pollen sub....

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214119

I also extend the season by letting the bees collect pollen sub in the fall and spring. I can shorten a winter dry spell from around 4-1/2 months to 3-1/2 months. I have fed open on platforms and also placed into empty hive bodies. (to protect from moisture/rain.)


----------



## tecumseh

keith writes:
I am going to give you a lab report on my collected pollen. 


tecumseh writes:
well keith I think this may be a good place to start, but it hardly works out to be that simple. rather than focus on some gross factor like protein* you need to break this down to come to some minimum level of the different amino acids (the little building blocks that are used in making protein).

from the standpoint of loosely contrived diets not such a bad rule (what I often times call a horse back ges-timate) is to construct the diet using three protein sources and this typically will result in the amino acids being fairly (not absolute for sure) balanced. a diet where the amino acids are extremely unbalance mean you would have been just as well to have toss this portion of the diet on the ground for all the good it did ya'.

*it is also good to distinguish between crude protein (typically measured by buring a sample and seeing how much ash remains) and digestable protein (which is typically just a statement about how much crude protein is actually in a digestable or usable form). the extreme example is hair and nail (hooves) material which is extremely high in protein but is almost 100% undigestable.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

tecumseh said:


> well keith I think this may be a good place to start, but it hardly works out to be that simple. .


I know Tecumseh, I've been feeding pollen sub for twenty years and I don't know if I'm any closer than when I started twenty years ago.

It's just some bee feed right, can't be that hard. LOL Keith


----------



## Aspera

Egg is probably much higher in CP than 50%, and it is very digestable. I still don't understand what the potato flakes contribute.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Aspera, what is CP ?


----------



## sc-bee

*Pollen Supplements*

Rookie question please!!!

On page 653 of the new ABC-XYZ there is a chart showing the analysis of a few bee supplements (Bee-Pro, Pollen Sub Plus, Feed Bee). There is also a column that has recommended amino acid Profile DeGroot.

Listed in the chart is also brewers yeast. Brewers yeast meets all the recommended amino acid profile DeGroot---however over in some of the categories but meets all !!! In these cases is more maybe not better. It also list Crude protein and Carbs (with Brewers Yeast @ 43% and 28.7% respectively). 

Thanks for bearing with me . The question can I not just feed Brewers yeast dry. I don't want patties because of SHB and boy are they still strong going into our so far mild winter!!! What are the pitfalls of feeding just the brewers yeast. If you added a few things to the yeast (if anything) what would they be and what proportion? 

I guess in a nutshell will they benefit at all from the feeding of just the dry Brewers yeast???


----------



## JBJ

Chef, we are just storing what did not get used before the weather turned cold in a cool and dry location. Should be able to start with the protein again in Jan.

Kieth I would guess CP is shorthand for crude protein?


----------



## panubee

JBJ said:


> Has anybody experimented with some of the oils higher antioxidants, such as flax?


JBJ,

I had been wondering whether some other high protein sources might be used as pollen substitute. A couple I had been considering are: coffee grounds (used of course) and ground flax seed. The flax seed is high in omega fatty acids, which I read somewhere are needed by the bees. Both I believe are over 20% protein.

panubee


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Aspera said:


> Egg is probably much higher in CP than 50%, and it is very digestable. I still don't understand what the potato flakes contribute.


It just so happens that I have TYPICAL ANALSIS on that.

This BTW is from the egg yolk I sell.

Protein .......................................................47 %
fat................................................................40%


----------



## panubee

BjornBee said:


> Grant,
> So is the 50 lbs sugar counted dry or wet? What about the other ingredients?
> 
> How does one calculate the recipe in the first post in regards to protein percentage?
> 
> Thanks.


Bjorn,

I read a research paper on pollen last night that was published in Australia. It was about 200 pages long (I skipped much of the discussion on the glories of eucalyptus, we don't have much in PA). I'm not sure if it was the one you recommended. I found the link on BEESOURCE. The authors recommended pollen with an excess of 20% protein. They measured the protein as it was collected.

As I understand it, the bees collect pollen and cover it with honey as a preservative. I believe it also ferments (yeast present?) in this anaerobic environment. 

This seems to answer your question above, or at least my original question of how to measure the protein content of the pollen substitute. I don't think I would consider the sugar or water when determining the percent of protein. At the same time, I don't want the sugar to exceed the pollen/pollen substitute either. I have read bees raised on no protein have very short lives.

The article also pointed out that bees were attracted to pollen very high in fat (~6%). Canola pollen was given as an example. 

Thanks for helping to educate me.

panubee


----------



## Aspera

Keith Jarrett said:


> It just so happens that I have TYPICAL ANALSIS on that.
> 
> This BTW is from the egg yolk I sell.
> 
> Protein .......................................................47 %
> fat................................................................40%


Sorry, I misunderstood. I misread the post as "powdered egg" which would also include the egg white (very pure albumin). CP is shorthand for crude protein, and egg albumin is almost 100% digestable, as opposed to pollen and vegetable proteins which do not even come close to this figure, but may still have high CP values.


----------



## stangardener

is there a reason why the recipes seem to be using powdered yolk and not whole egg?


----------



## Aspera

I'm guessing that people want the high cholesterol content an fat soluble vitamins found in the yolk. just a guess however.


----------



## 1beechilo

*pollen patty*

Would like to ask you how do i mix the bee pro into the mix? How manu lbs of bee pro do I use. It is not specified and would like to know. 

Thanks


----------



## jean-marc

*Patty storage*

Hey Chef:

Seeing as how you're gonna mix your patties at work, you surely must have some extra storage room in those restaurant size freezers.

Jean-Marc


----------



## stangardener

1beechilo said:


> Would like to ask you how do i mix the bee pro into the mix? How manu lbs of bee pro do I use. It is not specified and would like to know.
> 
> Thanks


it's not an exact science. just mix enough syrup in the sustitute to make a soft cookie dough. squish it out to make about a 6" cookie. lots of folks use wax paper top and bottom so it doesn't stick. i don't, i mix it up in a five gallon bucket and do it by hand.


----------



## Chef Isaac

Restaurant size freezers? Ha!!! We write our menu daily and have two SMALL freezers.


----------



## Michael Palmer

1beechilo said:


> Would like to ask you how do i mix the bee pro into the mix? How manu lbs of bee pro do I use. It is not specified and would like to know.
> 
> Thanks


Start out by mixing a small amount. Use a 5 gallon bucket, and a drill fitted with a paint mixer...one long enough to mix 5 gallons. Use 2 parts HFCS or thick syrup, to one part Bee Pro. Let sit overnight. The final product should be just thick enough so it won't run down between the frames.


----------

