# how to combine a laying worker hive with a queenright hive?



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

see the post on newspapering already started. Go to the top and click new posts. then find the thread


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

It is quite risky to attempt a combine with a laying worker hive. They may overwhelm the queen right hive and kill the queen, even with a shake out. You can gain the foragers by moving the LW hive away and the foragers would return to the old location and beg into a different nearby hive. Be very careful with that laying worker hive regarding combining. There's a lot of info on this site to help you understand this risk. I don't know if you could set the two together, screened apart for a good length of time and if the LW hive would cease and accept the queen on the other side of the screen.


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## Barhopper (Mar 5, 2015)

Can you find the laying worker? I doubt it. Foundationless? If it's plastic you shouldn't have any trouble with new comb. Bang them out a hundred yards away before the newspaper combine. Use multiple pieces of paper. It's still risky.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

DanielD said:


> It is quite risky to attempt a combine with a laying worker hive. They may overwhelm the queen right hive and kill the queen, even with a shake out. You can gain the foragers by moving the LW hive away and the foragers would return to the old location and beg into a different nearby hive. Be very careful with that laying worker hive regarding combining. There's a lot of info on this site to help you understand this risk. I don't know if you could set the two together, screened apart for a good length of time and if the LW hive would cease and accept the queen on the other side of the screen.


+1 Laying worker = bees think they are queen right! I would shake them out, otherwise you risk losing your queen.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

I gave my laying worker hive a frame of open brood every week for 4 weeks the laying worker stopped they tried to make a queen. I gave up when the hive was full of nectur then I put it on top of a hive, news paper combine.


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## stavros (Feb 26, 2008)

Thank you for your replies, but I am still confused. I do not want to shake the bees because their comb is too delicate (foundationless deep frames built in the last few weeks), and it's not very practical for the location to add to them a few of open brood per week. So, if I want to combine them with a queen-right colony, should I place the queen-right colony on the top or on the bottom? And should I use a double screen (if so for how long), or newspaper (are 3 sheets enough)? Please advise. Thank you.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Guessing beyond my job description here-
Suppose you put the laying workers above a double screen, above a queenright hive. I'm not sure how to tell when the laying workers stop, but surely they have when the last of the drones emerge. At this time you could separate the laying worker section from the queenright section and offer it a queen or a frame with eggs. By this time those are pretty old bees and perhaps no longer worth the bother, but at least they may have built some comb or laid in resources that you can use elsewhere. If the bees indicate normalcy by building queencells or loving the offered queen you could let them have the queen, raise a queen (better give them more bees, these are old), or combine.

I invite comment from those who actually know what they're doing, I'm trying to learn too.
Bill


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Combining as you describe has risks...You may lose your queen!

Use a brush if you can't shake the bees. Shake or brush the bees from the laying worker hive and let them find a new home. Some say shake 50 feet away from the original site, some say more, but that is when you let them come back home. If their former hive equipment is not there, they will be forced to find a new home and will present less threat in that case to the new hive. JMO

Brood pheromones (meaning wet brood pheromones) will inhibit ovary development in worker bees. Queen Mandibular Pheromone and other queen substances will inhibit ovary development in worker bees.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

The biggest concern, I think, is that a laying worker hive dumped out all at once in front of another hive could overwhelm it because they are all together. If the hive was taken away to let the foragers go to the old location and merge with a nearby hive, the overwhelming wouldn't happen. It would be little at a time. Then, if you really wanted to save more of the bees, brush off the bees, instead of shaking, and put the frames in another box to cover up, emptying the hive. I would still not do that in front of another queen right hive. You may loose that one too. Go 100 ft or more. Homeless bees will circle about looking for a place to call home and probably find your other hive in due time, and little by little. 

The screen separation, first I don't know if it would stop a laying worker, but it would require a single screen. Double screens keep them from becoming one group. They pass the queen sensing to each other, bee to bee. That can't happen with a double screen. You could try the single screen, but it would be nice to hear if anyone on BS has done this and it would work. I would not do any combine unless I was positive the laying worker stopped.

One more thing, as a LW hive ages, only drones are produced and the workers are aging fast, so it's probably not worth much time invested.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

IMO as several have said above, it is not worth the risk of trying to combine them. I have no success in trying to save laying worker hives. I've only had a few but I don't try to save them any longer.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you shake the laying workers out, they will drift to other colonies with much less risk than doing a combine.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

stavros said:


> Thank you for your replies, but I am still confused. I do not want to shake the bees because their comb is too delicate (foundationless deep frames built in the last few weeks), and it's not very practical for the location to add to them a few of open brood per week. So, if I want to combine them with a queen-right colony, should I place the queen-right colony on the top or on the bottom? And should I use a double screen (if so for how long), or newspaper (are 3 sheets enough)? Please advise. Thank you.


No doubt there is value to the fresh comb, but ask yourself, is it more valuable than the entire colony of bees? IMO no. Don't worry so much about the comb. You might be able salvage some of the comb after the shakeout, whereas the shake is more likely to salvage the worker bees.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

I would not combine or do a shake out. Too great a risk in losing your good hive. I'd just let them draw as much comb as possible and store as much nectar as possible and let them die out. Move frames out before being overtaken by moths or beetles. Look at it as though you were given free drawn comb and some frames of nectar/pollen.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Like Michael said, shake out the hive and let them sort it out when drifting to the other hives. The more hives you have for them to drift to, the better. 
I've done it a few times without much resistance.


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## stavros (Feb 26, 2008)

Update: I did a newspaper combine of one deep of the laying worker with another deep of a laying queen inserting a super inbeetween and no more laying worker, and no more drone brood. But something unexpected happened: they filled out both deeps with honey (using the comb they just drew, too fragile to extract), and the laying queen only has the super to lay, and I have run out of drawn comb. This will almost lead them to swarm, unless I give them more space somehow. This is a phenomenal spring in Atlanta. Such a strong honey flow, and so many swarms, day after day after day.


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

Purely speculation as I've never tried this.

Assuming you have a decently strong queen-right hive, could you move a couple frames per week from the LW hive to the QH? Maybe split the 2 frames and place one on the outsides of the QH. This way they couldn't overwhelm the QH and you would eventually move all the frames over to the QH saving them. I'm unsure what problems this might produce but would like to other's thoughts. Seems when you move the frame with the laying worker the stronger queen hive would kill her.


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## schindal (Nov 23, 2014)

I am wondering this also. has anyone tried adding one or two frames at a time from a laying worker hive to a queenright hive?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am wondering this also. has anyone tried adding one or two frames at a time from a laying worker hive to a queenright hive?

A lot of things work SOMETIMES. I want something that works all the time. Combining CAN work but it's risky. Shaking out is the least risky way to end a laying worker hive. I've tried about everything... I would either do a frame of brood every week for three weeks to salvage it (but only if it's handy and I don't have to drive to the hive) or I would shake it out. The only other thing to consider is giving it a queen cell...


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

I'd move the hive with the laying worker hive to a spot on the other side of the apiary, make up a split from another strong hive and put the split where the laying worker hive was originally located. On the next visit to the apiary, shake out all the bees from the laying worker hive and take the equipment/remaining resources elsewhere.


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