# How winter bees move across the combs in TBH ?



## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

A book I am reading mentioned couple of things about winter bees. 

* cluster is about 10 inches in dia
* that they prefer to move UP in cluster
* that winter bees cannot chew through comb in winter. 
* that they create holes in the comb in prep for winter, if they have to move laterally

But most of TBH comb pictures I looked at show no large holes across the combs that bees can move in cluster as is. 

Is there any truth to any of this ? How do they move laterally without breaking cluster ?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

My TBHs were always clustered on the warm side of the box and because mine had relatively small combs (Les Crowder plans)... they were pretty strung out. Frankly, the clusters in two of the three never moved during the winter. There's no dead space between boxes like their is in a Lang. And on small combs the cluster is just an odd shape (in TBH). The other had so many bees their cluster was about 2.5' long packing all the combs. They lost a ton of bees and it was a moisture nightmare as there is not really a natural path out of the colony like there is in a vertical hive. The warm air rises and condenses on the cool sides of the hive (2" of foam on top of the bars). Since I had only a top entrance at one end the water pooled in the bottom of the colony until I drilled weep holes sometime in December and let it drain out.

What book are you reading? I'd agree they prefer to move up, the rest of those don't make much sense. I think the larger the combs in the top bar the better wintering that you'll experience. Mainly because you give them plenty of space above their brood to store honey and have something to move to. Plus you allow them to cluster more naturally than in a smaller comb hive like the ones I built. All three of mine made it through the winter and we got down to -15 or -20 for at least a few nights last winter. I cut them over into Langstroths this spring for a whole bunch of reasons. The TBHs didn't start raising brood until Mid-March while my Langs were making bees in small amounts starting around January. TBHs still wanted to swarm at the same time though.

If I were inclined to keep bees in a horizontal hive again, I would do so in a deep Langstroth format with standard frames. The lumber costs would be somewhat similar. Frames would cost additional, but you could still be foundationless if so desired. Combs are much nicer to handle in a frame than they are as a free comb.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Thanks for the reply Carlson. Book I am reading is "Keeping Bess with a Smile". The climate conditions of Author may not be relevant to where I am at (NJ). None the less, I was curious. 

I already built a TBH following Les Crowder plans. I may also experiment with a Russian style TBH with very deep foundationless frames.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

>Frankly, the clusters in two of the three never moved during the winter.

Movement? That's been my experience with both vertical and horizontal hives as long as the bees have a normal sized cluster and are healthy. Thermocouple studies show a winter cluster acts kind of like an amoeba and will project a narrow extension to get food or water. Then it shrinks back into its original more compact shape. And it will extend in just about any direction, even downward.

A small or sick cluster just doesn't have the heat or bees to do this. They often go in the only direction they can and that's upward.

In my Wyoming Lang hives, the cluster never relocated more than 2" upward from October through March.

Consumption? It's in the early spring, when the bees brood up, that honey is really consumed. I've monitored hive weight loss in colonies overwinter both inside and outside, in very cold climates, in Alaska's interior, and in Wyoming. Outside, weight loss in generally less than a pound/week during the winter. Inside, where temperature is maintained near freezing, consumption rates are about half that of the ourside bees. It can be 10 times that rate when the bees are actively brooding up.

Holes in Comb? Langstroth mentioned that the practise was common a hundred years ago. And some old magazines/catalogues sold tools for that purpose. But I don't know of anyone doing it today.

Top bar hives? They are neat and I learned alot about bee behaviour/nest structure from them. But I had a lot to unlearn as I had decades of commercial beekeeping experience before running a tbh. And I never got over the sense that I was in some kind of sloooow motion top bar hive time warp, as I can work a whole commercial beeyard in about the same time it takes to work a couple of top bar hives.

My favourite hive? It's a deep frame based long hive like my Combo Long Hive. Properly setup, it's a very flexible hive that has most of the advantages of a top bar hive, with few of the liabilities.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

Some more thoughts and a little experience on tbh winter clusters/solar exposure.

My tbhs entrances, on the long side, faced south during the winter. My 3 deep story hives, with their entrances on the narrow side, also faced south. That resulted in both kinds of hives getting about the same amount of solar radiation.

https://bnaturalguy.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/spring-top-bar-hive1.jpg

But in the Langs, the cluster had limited exposure to the heat generated. Not so in the tbhs. Lacking the beespace, end bars, and tall overhead honey storage of the Langs, the tbh clusters and every comb was in direct contact with the solar heated side of the hive. And that heat ends up at the same level as the cluster rather than at the top of a 3 deep hive, far away from the cluster.

Is it good or bad? I don't know. But the tbh bees are more active inside their winter entrance when compared to the 3 deep Langs.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

BWrangler said:


> Is it good or bad? I don't know. But the tbh bees are more active inside their winter entrance when compared to the 3 deep Langs.


Interesting as my observations were exactly the opposite. Through viewing windows on the TBHs there was absolutely no activity. My TBHs never flew for cleansing flights even on the days my Langs were flying heavily, in fact they didn't even fly until it was about 50-55 degrees. Kind of weird. Like they needed to thaw out or something . TBHs were painted dark red. I'm not saying the lack of activity is a bad thing necessarily... it was just 'different'.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

DaisyNJ said:


> Is there any truth to any of this?


Most of those things you quoted are not always true, but are often true.

If you look at a wild hive, rather than the neat rows of parallel combs we have in a lang or TBH, there will be what looks like an untidy mess of interweaved combs, curling around with other combs beginning and ending between, and larger combs often having holes in them. Looks untidy to us but it's exactly what the bees need for getting around and managing their home.

A lang fills this need to some extent if it is more than one box by having a bee space between boxes so the bees use that. Many years ago here it was common practise in langs to put a piece of burlap over the frames for an inner cover. In a single box lang that meant no bee space above the frames and bees would commonly make holes in comb to compensate. Now, timber inner covers are used that have a bee space and bees rarely make holes in the combs.

In a TBH there is no bee space except around the edge of the combs. Combine that with the combs being in a neat row of parallel combs rather than a natural arrangement, plus that the hive extends out sideways a long way, there is a situation where in a very cold winter if combs are larger than the cluster it could be difficult or dangerous for bees to venture around the edge. Pre preparing holes in the combs for the bees to use could help. The holes should be near the top centre of the combs and about as wide as your little finger.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Most of those things you quoted are not always true, but are often true.
> 
> Pre preparing holes in the combs for the bees to use could help. The holes should be near the top centre of the combs and about as wide as your little finger.


The bees do a fine job all by themselves in making the communication holes. You can see from this newly built comb how it was 3 separate combs that came together. The bees never did fill in the middle hole.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

ruthiesbees said:


> The bees do a fine job all by themselves in making the communication holes.


Agree, this is often seen, but not always. Because in long hives such as TBH's bees can find themselves in a situation in winter when they would have to make a hole through a black heavily cocooned comb and this may be too much for them at that time. Some of the TBH winter losses that are reported even though there was honey further along can be due to this. The situation arises purely because we manipulate the combs and move them, the bees may go into winter in a configuration not of their own making. I see a lot of holes in TBH combs but still think it's a good idea that the beekeeper do a pre winter check to ensure bees will be able to move around. 

Even in langs, I take very weak nucs into winter and if I feel there is a need I will punch a communication hole for them. Because if the cluster is the size of 2 fists and the bees on one side of the comb cannot contact the bees on the other side of the comb it is not going to work, a small hole in the right place will solve the issue. Again, this is necessary because the small nuc is not how the bees chose to winter, it is an artificial construct made by me. So it is also my responsibility to ensure they have a communication hole if needed because they were not given the option to do it themselves when they were able.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Thanks for all the replies. Great learning here. Almost every read I picked on TBH would talk about how Bees move in one direction for winter, hence the importance of entrance location to one end etc. Some literature also pointed to stats like 1mm movement per day through winter. So automatically I tried to visualize such cluster move. I can see how a cluster ball can move with something like Warre where bees can stay in their "comb lane" and continue to go up for honey. But on a 9inch high TBH comb, only way I can see bees crossing is through comb holes or walk around, or to the bottom and then to otherwise.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

DaisyNJ, when those above talk about the cluster spreading out in all directions, remember that they have to collapse back down. If you have the broodnest in the middle of the hive and honey stored on both ends, your bees will only have access to half of the honey because at some point they must move to new stores in only one direction or else the cluster will have to split when it collapses back down. I don't know if it's a real concern... but best case the bees can only access half the honey. Worst case they pick the side with the least amount of honey and starve.

Truthfully, though... having kept both TBHs and Langs. Cluster size is so much smaller in a TBH that for the most part they can winter on very very very little compared to a three deep Langstroth hive.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

The only time I believe a cluster will move is during their broodless period which in my location is a month either way of mid Dec. Some times some will brood straight through. Personally I see that they mostly stay on the combs they start the winter cluster on. I think it is pretty important to have combs that are large enough to accommodate sufficient over head stores plus the winter cluster. This way if they have brood, food shouldn't be too far away.
Very often with a swarm or shook swarm that are building new nests I see they will leave passage ways through the main brood combs as well they may build a comb or two that are shape like a W. I assume this makes it easier to transfer food or for movement between combs. I don't see them chewing through established comb other than if it is really old or there is something about it they don't like.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Ruthiesbees and Everyone

Thanks for the images.

Most of my tbh comb started out the same way with 3 combs on one bar that were eventually joined together. But as time and comb building progressed, the hands were joined together. And all communication holes were closed up.

Bees being bees, they even closed up the empty spaces created when I removed the vertical comb support.

early comb building

finished broodnest

honey storage comb


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Nice avatar BWrangler, you look in great shape.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Yep, a real Neanderthal thinker!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

By the time the really cold weather has set in, all my bees are almost always in the top box and spend the entire winter there. In my top bar hives they typically spend the winter in one place as well. I'm not saying they never move, but seldom. Sometimes if it stays cold they migrate some. When it warms up they rearrange stores.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Nice avatar BWrangler, you look in great shape.


Why don't I see the avitars in IE? If I move this thread over to Chrome, I see what OldTimer is talking about.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I see it in IE. You probably got some kind of blocker in action just in IE.


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## LittleByLittle (Dec 8, 2015)

ruthiesbees said:


> Why don't I see the avitars in IE? If I move this thread over to Chrome, I see what OldTimer is talking about.


You may need to go into your user account settings and change your preferences. Go into Settings (upper right) and General Settings on the left hand menu. Scroll down to Thread Display Options and make sure the "Show Avatars" box is checked. Dunno why it would be different for the different browsers (shouldn't be) but worth a shot anyway.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

LittleByLittle said:


> You may need to go into your user account settings and change your preferences. Go into Settings (upper right) and General Settings on the left hand menu. Scroll down to Thread Display Options and make sure the "Show Avatars" box is checked. Dunno why it would be different for the different browsers (shouldn't be) but worth a shot anyway.


That did the trick! Thanks so much LittleByLittle for the tip! Now I have to figure out what Avatar I want to put on my profile 

I think the reason it showed up different on the two browsers is that I don't sign in to my account in Chrome, but I am signed in when I access Beesource through IE.


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## erikebrown (Oct 27, 2014)

DaisyNJ said:


> A book I am reading mentioned couple of things about winter bees....


Daisy, thought it worth adding that this book was written for Russian beekeepers by Fedor Lazutin. Lazutin talks about 6-month winters with no cleansing flights, and uses 20-inch frames in a deep horizontal hive. Really enjoyed the book, and his appendix on how bees overwinter was really interesting to me, but keep his comments in the context of his climate and audience.

My one advice for TBH is consider the depth of the hive. Some designs only give you 7 or 8 inches of comb height, which could be a challenge in colder climates. I don't really have the experience to know what I'm talking about, but from what I've read it seems that a taller comb might be easier for the bees to manage.

Erik


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My TTBH has medium frames or the equivalent top bar. So with a frame that is about 5" of comb. My KTBH had about 9" combs. I overwinter bees in them every winter. We often get -10 F and occasionally get -27 F...


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

"I already built a TBH following Les Crowder plans. I may also experiment with a Russian style....."

Daisy I am not a proponent of TB hives but you might have an issue overwintering bees in that equipment in your area. When the bees can't move vertically onto winter stores your going to have to open them up and place bars of capped honey directly adjacent to the cluster so they can utilize it. Les Crowder would loose the majority of his top bar hives every winter here. He also didn't treat for mites so that also might have contributed to his bees having a hard time over-wintering.


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## erikebrown (Oct 27, 2014)

Riskybizz said:


> Daisy I am not a proponent of TB hives but you might have an issue overwintering bees in that equipment in your area. When the bees can't move vertically onto winter stores your going to have to open them up and place bars of capped honey directly adjacent to the cluster so they can utilize it. Les Crowder would loose the majority of his top bar hives every winter here. He also didn't treat for mites so that also might have contributed to his bees having a hard time over-wintering.


I've read that the bees will move up or horizontally. In Lazutin's book that you are reading he says the same.

I would also re-state what Michael said earlier:


Michael Bush said:


> By the time the really cold weather has set in, all my bees are almost always in the top box and spend the entire winter there. In my top bar hives they typically spend the winter in one place as well. I'm not saying they never move, but seldom. Sometimes if it stays cold they migrate some. When it warms up they rearrange stores.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

In my TBHs the bees always seem to cluster on the end where the entrances are, and workers must be moving stores as needed (bucket brigade? ) In my double deep langs they move up during the winter. 

I'm not sure were Daisy lives in NJ, but bees live in TBHs in very cold areas. I looked at an Ag zone map (plant hardiness) for NJ and it doesn't look that cold to me. New Mexico has colder zones in it than NJ.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

You looked at an Ag Zone map. What does that have to do with the subject matter? Just curious.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Sorry, just saw the reply. The temps are close within the AG zones. Beekeeping in Florida is a lot different than in Wyoming. But I use the AG zones to get an idea of the local weather. It isn't perfect, coastal NJ is going to be different than AZ, but it is better than nothing.


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