# Vietnamese honey production math problem



## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

*Re: Bulk honey prices and market outlook*

Roland

http://www.wompom.ca/vietnam/vnprovinc708.htm


Tay Nguyen province or Tan Ninh province contains 4028 square miles,it produced 6000 tonnes of honey= 13.2M lbs, divide by 4028 square miles = 3277 lbs per square mile, 50 hives in this one square mile would average 65.5 lbs per colony, wondering if my math is correct

Article also says "Sugar is fed to bees in Viet Nam when there are few blossoms"


Jay Leno - “Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.
Teach a man to create an artificial shortage of fish and he will eat steak.”


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

*Re: Bulk honey prices and market outlook*

Generally, we put 40 hives, every 4 miles. A four mile square is 16 square miles. 
3277 lbs per square mile times 16 square miles is 52432 lbs per yard. Divide that by 40 hives and you get 1310.8 lbs per hive. I guess location IS the most important factor!!!! 

Roland


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

*Re: Bulk honey prices and market outlook*

WHoaaaaa - that's 4028 square kilometers!!!!! Rough numbers, 62 mph is 100 kph, so .62 squared is .38?? That would be 3400 lbs a hive??? Some body correct me here, please... 

Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Bulk honey prices and market outlook*

too much math,

but,
see if your figuring works for north american production


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## Jonathan Hofer (Aug 10, 2005)

*Re: Bulk honey prices and market outlook*

Just doing the math:

To have 4028 square miles, you need a piece of land that's about 64 miles long by 64 miles wide.

If (hypothetically) you put bees on the corners of every four miles square, you would be putting 16 yards on a straight line across the top, and 16 yards on a straight line four miles below your original line, and 16 yards four miles below the previous two lines and so on. 

I figure that you could get up to 256 yards (16 x 16) into the 4028 square miles. If each of your yards has 40 hives, that's 10,240 hives in the 4028 square miles.

Now for the honey component: 6000 tonnes is about 1,320,000 pounds. This works out to about 130 pounds per hive.

I like doing math.  

JH


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

*Re: Bulk honey prices and market outlook*

I think it was square kilometers!!! Check the website.

Check my math with square kilometers.


6000 times 2000 lbs per ton is 12,000,000 ???(or 13,200,000)

1300 lbs a hive?



Roland


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Problem is you're not using an abacus.


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

4028km=995,340 acer

4028km=1,555 sq miles
it would take 80,000 colonies @150lb to produce 12,000,000lb that much i know
so-with the sq miles=1,555 and number of colonies =80,000
it would take 51 colonies per sq mile @ 150lbs per to yield that amount RDY-B


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

This article from a whlie back might shed some light on this - maybe not:

http://www.cares.org.vn/webplus/attachments/201a4ff72354149a34e5b6d30818cac3-014.pdf

There is some info about the actual number of hives in the region. BTW Roland may well be an Abacus - his math look good to me.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Hey no doubt re: Roland. Just speaking metaphorically, so to speak. 

Question is of course: Do the figures indicate transshipping or is VietNam pulling hard on the bootstraps?

Honey market analysts know fairly well how much production is real.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

RDY-B said:


> 4028km=995,340 acer
> 
> it would take 80,000 colonies @150lb to produce 12,000,000lb that much i know-RDY-B


So that would take about 50 colonies/ Square mile. Approximately 1 colonie/12 acres.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

On average, that is one HECK of a honeyflow.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Tom G. Laury said:


> On average, that is one HECK of a honeyflow.


I have heard of some awfully large honey flows up in Canada (Saskatchewan probably) but they are not that large (as this Viet. honeyflow) - are they?


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Here is an article from 2008.
http://english.vietnamnet.vn/social/2008/03/775933/

There are about 700,000 beehives across the nation, of which 270,000 are from the Central Highlands(Tay Nguyen).

Viet Nam produces about 15,000 tonnes of honey per year, and more than half of that, about 8,000 tonnes, is produced in Tay Nguyen.

According to http://countrystudies.us/vietnam/33.htm
Within the southern portion of Vietnam is a plateau known as the Central Highlands (Tay Nguyen), approximately 51,800 square kilometers of rugged mountain peaks, extensive forests, and rich soil.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Averages*

We all remember those corner hives with 6 deeps of honey. But to average what was it, 130 lbs @ 1 colony per 10 acres? That is phenomenal.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_On average, that is one HECK of a honeyflow. _

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ormond_Aebi
*However, a Mr. Rob Smith of Australia surely holds the world’s most astounding result for an apiary. *According to Bill Winner, Beekeeper Services Manager, Capilano Honey Company, “We can confirm the average production of 346 kilograms (762 lbs) per hive from 460 hives.

It should also be noted that Vietnamese honey is dark. 

*The quality of honey has been strongly improved as new bee species have been introduced.* However, to date, Viet Nam has only exported honey, while sweets or cakes have yet to be produced. "Vietnamese honey is dark, so it is not suitable for other products," Anh said.
http://english.vietnamnet.vn/biz/200911/Dak-Lak-to-export-6000-tonnes-of-honey-881568/

What?! The bee breed determines honey quality? And here I thought it was the flowers that determined honey color...


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> Here is an article from 2008.
> http://english.vietnamnet.vn/social/2008/03/775933/
> 
> There are about 700,000 beehives across the nation, of which 270,000 are from the Central Highlands(Tay Nguyen).
> ...


WEll that is about 48 lbs per hive - at least that sounds possible. Of course I suppose one should factor in that acreage.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

"Each honeybee farm raises about 200 to 250 colonies. The distance between farms
ranges from 800 meters to 1.000 meters.
Production activities at honey farms follows a cyclical pattern. The first of these"

from
http://www.cares.org.vn/webplus/atta...18cac3-014.pdf

I am thinking their price to the producer, in their currency would be our equivalent of say $2/lb... a incentive to produce and grow and also control quality , intensive beekeeping with a good reward
Wondering weather they have reached their full potential or is their a lot more production,growth to come.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

well lets revisit the math for a minute.................

1 tonne = 2,204.6 pounds so
6,000 tonnes = 13,227,600 pounds of exported honey

Tay Nguyen is 4,028 square Km
1 square Km = 0.386102 square miles so
4,028 sq. Km = 1,555.21 sq. miles
1 sq mi = 640 acres so
1,555.21 sq. mi =995,334.4 acres

now we can figure pounds of honey per acre
13,227,600 pounds of honey / 995,334.4 acres = 13.3 pounds per acre

I think that is a doable figure myself...........anybody have any input on the above figures.

G3


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

concerning my figures above.........

the square area is for a flat surface, if you introduce mountains and valleys the actual surface area increases some what, but you would also need to pull out the bodies of water, roadways, building sites, etc, etc.

It all boils down to how many colonies will one acre support. 

Lets just say the average hive will yield 100 pounds of raw honey and we are needing 13.3 pounds per acre. that means a single hive can have up to 7.5 acres to forage on, seems very doable now.

So if each hive has to produce 100 pounds of honey to yield a total export of 13,227,600 pounds we would need 132,276 hives.

Since there is 1,555.21 sq miles in the province and we need 132,276 hives that is 85 hives per sq. mile (which is 640 acres).


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## Rohe Bee Ranch (Feb 12, 2008)

So, how much surgar for feeding per pound of honey produced was required? And was this cost effective? And if you are having to feed the bees sugar because of few flowers does the amount of land required really make any difference?


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

I am not for importing honey into the USA at all, I was just doing a little math.

I have no idea about what kinds of nector sources they have or how much sugar is fed to make these poundage numbers for export.

G3


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Is that rice sugar? That the best sugar out their.:doh:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Bulk honey prices and market outlook*

I produce 1300 lbs of honey per hive on average


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Irwin's original post about 4,028 sq kilometers of area referred to Ninh Thuan Province, NOT Tan Ninh (aka Tay Nguyen) province. (I think what may have screwed him up is that the capital city in Ninh Thuan is named Tay Ninh.)

According to http://countrystudies.us/vietnam/33.htm
Within the southern portion of Vietnam is a plateau known as the Central Highlands (Tay Nguyen), approximately *51,800 square kilometers *of rugged mountain peaks, extensive forests, and rich soil.


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

.




G3farms said:


> concerning my figures above........
> Since there is 1,555.21 sq miles in the province and we need 132,276 hives that is 85 hives per sq. mile (which is 640 acres).


so you are at 7.5 acer per hive-- thats to many hives  RDY-B
40 hives per 300 acer
thats a yard of 40 every 1/2 mile


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

RDY-B said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You mean 7.5 acres per hive don't you?


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

yep, 7.5 acres per hive to forage on.


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

G3farms said:


> yep, 7.5 acres per hive to forage on.


and it only has to make 100lbs :lpf:  RDY-B


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## wfuavenger (Dec 11, 2009)

Everyone is forgetting another fact. The fact that that region is fairly tropical. It is fairly warm and wet year round with plenty of jungle. There shouldn't bee too many dearths. And if they constantly feed sugar from sugarcane, which is easily grown there too (and probably cheap as heck), you can get a ton of "honey" off of each hive.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

RDY-B................

Is that not a doable number?!?!

How many acres will it take to make 100 pounds??

Your vast knowledge is very much needed by all beeks on all sites.

I don't claim to know it all, I was just crunching some numbers that had been provided in the first post.

Do tell!opcorn:

G3


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Some of Vietnam's exported honey is apparently actually from China:
http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2010.02.02.12.53.archive.html
Perhaps that would partially explain the somewhat amazing honey production levels coming from Vietnam?


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

seams to me that bees fly 2 miles any direction-thats 16 sq. miles or 10,240 acres
if we put 50 hives every four miles-that gives us 50 hives for the 10,240 acres
this is a normal drop-can you tell me how many acres there is per hive
looks to me like 204 acres per hive -makes me skeptical-maybe you could make that kind of honey (7 acres per 100lbs a hive) in Hawaii -i dont know -but i dont think they(Vietnamese) have any better bees than us and i dont think they are better beekeepers than us so -I think there is more to it than figures on a page 
RDY-B


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

That's what I was going to say Omie, They are probably illegally dumping chinese honey in the us. 



Omie said:


> Some of Vietnam's exported honey is apparently actually from China:
> http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2010.02.02.12.53.archive.html
> Perhaps that would partially explain the somewhat amazing honey production levels coming from Vietnam?


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

Nevermind, you all posted the link to the same article I read already.


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## Durandal (Sep 5, 2007)

This is quoted directly from the Vietnam Ministry of Agriculture and Rural Development:



> Viet Nam's honey exports mainly target US
> 
> Date: 16/02/06
> 
> ...


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Source: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/394053_honey30.asp

Tuesday, December 30, 2008

Vietnam is now the No. 2 honey exporter to the U.S., second to Canada. But Vietnamese honey officials say much Chinese honey is being transshipped through their country, citing 24 containers that arrived in Los Angeles earlier this month.

"When the Chinese first got into trouble with this antibiotic adulteration, all of a sudden Vietnam became a major exporter of honey to the United States," said Mike Burgett, professor emeritus in entomology at Oregon State University who has monitored Southeast Asian beekeeping for 27 years. "I know **** well that the Vietnamese bee industry cannot be pumping out that much honey."

Falsifying records to get honey illegally into the U.S. is a common practice, said a former Shanghai honey shipper.

"In Hai Phong (Vietnam), the Chinese honey became Vietnamese and in Pusan (South Korea) the papers were changed to say it came from Russia," said the former shipper, who asked not to be identified.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=paZpWwSKDaSNft1FnRJKEHA


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

How will they be able to stop transshipping? The US cant trace the honey trades. Basically the same thing as anyother commodity.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Why can't they trace the shipments? Andrew Schneider of SeattlePI.com did so in his Dec 20 2008 article. OK, so you would not have to trace our trusted friends to the north, (they would not trans ship I hope)but when the numbers do not add up, that would be a smart place to look first. 

Roland


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

Ian said:


> How will they be able to stop transshipping? The US cant trace the honey trades. Basically the same thing as anyother commodity.


Simple, lock down the imports. IF chinese honey is banned because of their practices then they ship through any other country and relabel then you ban those countries too.

Pretty soon, all the countries that wish to do business with the US will ban chinese or any other country that is shipping contaminated honey.


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## Durandal (Sep 5, 2007)

The US is not even capable of inspecting its own food producers and packagers and processors much less properly track anything outside this country. Even with all the new food safety rule sin the pipeline there is no money to enforce them.

The logic (even if its flawed) is simple.

*If its not from a US beekeeper it contains foreign honey. Don't buy honey from a packer, buy it from a beekeeper.*

Local honey. If its not local its adulterated. All these problems are like massive cost free marketing tools local beekeepers can use to sell the heck out of local honey at a premium price.

I think part of the problem also is that pollination fuels our bee business in this country, specifically almonds and honey is looked at as a hassle because of shipping weight...a by-product with a focus on pollination rather than honey production. Some larger scale beekeepers thinking more laterally than vertically could take advantage of markets like we have right now, maybe form a co-op to sell their honey at a premium and by-pass the packers AND apply pressure to the political side of things to help make changes.

Think out of the box.


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