# what is the latest on CCD?



## lake thompson honey

what has anyone heard in the last few days? i heard a rumor that it could caused by new strain of nosema?


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## George Fergusson

The lastest copy of the MIDWEST BEEKEEPER is largely devoted to reporting on the CCD and it's a free download. It's got, among other things, a map.

http://www.indianabeekeepingschool.com/


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## dickm

Researchers are meeting today and tommorow in FL. I suppose they will issue an update Through MAAREC. You know, the site where the interim report came from!

Dickm

[ February 20, 2007, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: dickm ]


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## Trevor Mansell

Where are they meeting in Florida, my bee inspector knows nothing about it.


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## Joel

http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/dn11183/dn11183-1_650.jpg

Here's the direct link to the map of affected states.


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## BjornBee

There are several directions that are being looked at. Someone is looking at fungal contamination, someone is analyzing bee bread, someone is testing for pesticides, and so on. This actually is a very good effort of people coming together and trying to solve a problem. They are not focused on one thing in particular. And thats the way it should be.

Joel, (as you suggested) Last week, I passed along the webistes and some personal feeling to Dennis. (See thread "Body protein and CCD".)

[ February 20, 2007, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


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## florida pollinator

It was top secret.If your bee inspector had been made aware they'd had to kill him off .

It was (is) on the east coast and was an invitation only thing. I guess for the highrollers and VIP's of beekeeping. I know people that are going but did'nt get my invite ticket.


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## sqkcrk

Joel, how current is that map? Do you know? I understand that NY beekeepers have reported CCD like symptoms. Mike Palmer reported on Bee-L that he had seen a map that included NY. 

I filled out the survey. Does that automatically make NY part of the map. I attributed my bee loss, over the last two years, to poor managment and lack of effective legal mite controls.


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## Joel

I beleive the map was current through the 1st. week of Februay, 07.


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## sqkcrk

Thanks. I wonder what map Mike Palmer was refering to?

Mike, what map were you refering to?


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## Trevor Mansell

Could you share with me the exact town on the east coast? Or is that top secret, double probation as well?


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## soupcan

I had in the back of my mind that HFC was to blame & then I found out that this is not he case. People who fed nothing but sucrose this fall are having the same problems as those who do nothing but HFC. 
I have made dozens of phone calls to try & get a a handle on this problem. Many of us agree that the problem arises with the bee leaving the hive & not finding it's way back home. Very few hives are found with any dead bees to speak of in the boxes. If the honey bee can not find it's way back home, this has to a problem with the bee's thought process. 
Pesticide kills will result in dead bees in front of & in this hive. This will occur in 12 to 24 hours. This type of event is not taking place as I have been told. Seems that a good bunch of the evidence is missing & that is the dead bees that have disappeared, never returned back to there hive. 
Anybody else have thoughs on this????


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## BjornBee

soup,
Sick bees, if given the choice, will not normally die inside the hive. Either the bees lost their way by somehow losing their navigation skills, or they left with never having the intention of getting back.

In light that most of the hives were either down south, or in the north with an extremely warm fall and early winter conditions, I would guess that the bees dwindled within a short period, with sick and dying bees leaving on their own.


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## soupcan

Not from many of the reports we have had. There was a load out yard in Wisconsin that when the trucks showed up late in the afternoon there was some flight on but not much. As of the 27th of December there was still 2 inches of dead bees in the load out yard. But very few dead bees on the truck bed when they got to Florida. 
These 3 loads of bees left the 1st part of November. There bees were still going backwards as of last week. 
I agree that a bee has a instinct not to die in it's own home, but we have had over the years some pesticide kills as the bee were so over come so quickly they can not leave the hive in time & die there. 
Lost there navigational skills is the key word here.When we can figure this one out I think we are on the right track.


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## florida pollinator

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/business/content/business/epaper/2007/02/20/a12b_bees_0220.html

I'm not sure what town , this article has some information about it . The reporter was granted access as she is pursuing information about ccd and improper use of lorsban in the citrus groves.
Seems the florida dept of ag and florida pesticide division are not enforcing label laws.


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## Michael Palmer

>Mike, what map were you refering to?

The map at: http://www.indianabeekeepingschool.com/ 
in the March newsletter.

On Bee-L when I asked where in the state the report was coming from...I would have been happy with what county... Bromenshenk said: 

"Our public maps are deliberately vague -- many beekeepers require 
confidentiality before they will answer our questions. 

We share more detailed information as appropriate - to the CCD Working 
Group, others working on the problem. 

However, our databases are set up to respect the beekeeper wishes. One of 
the more frequent requests is that we NOT share specific information with 
'their' state bee inspectors or the general public.

I can say that NY has a high percentage (compared to most states) of 
respondents who say they've seen this disorder.

Keep in mind, our surveys are only as good as the input that we get. So 
far, over 100 beekeepers have filled out our on-line surveys -- not many 
considering the number of beekeepers in the U.S. We can use more input 
(_www.beesurvey.com_ (http://www.beesurvey.com) ).

Thanks

Jerry
J.J. Bromenshenk


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## Barry Digman

"Here's the direct link to the map of affected states."

The map is not particularly useful. Take Texas for example. It's one of the states that has reported CCD, but we don't know if the bees were in Texline, or 900 miles away in Brownsville. Nor do we know if there was a single case involving 2 static hives kept by a hobbiest, or 5,000 hives spread amongst 10 commercial pollinators. No data on when reported, when the die-off was discovered, treatments, whether it's confirmed as CCD, etc.


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## Joel

{The map is not particularly useful.}

That's for sure, they could have at least used red and blue!  

I understand they don't want to give anything away but a number would be nice.


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## sqkcrk

I kinda worry about self diagnosis of CCD. I filled out the survey, but I don't necessarily think that I have CCD. I just can't say one way or the other. And to say that I have experienced CCD in my colonies is irresponsible, in my opinion. 

It's too bad that the cause isn't known. If it were then one could sample suspect colonies and have lab verification.

From my experience in the Inspection Field, there is nothing like experience when it comes to field diagnosis of bee diseases, pests and disorders.

Mike, what would you do if the bees in question, in NY, were in Clinton County?

Mine are all in SC. I'll bet that the majority of the beekeepers from NY who participated in the survey are probably migratory and therefore out of state at this time.

David Hackenburgs colonies were in NY during the summer. So, were his counted as being from NY, or PA? PB, from PA, supposedly lost all of his and his were in NY during the summer. 3,000 colonies.


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## Aspera

>I kinda worry about self diagnosis of CCD. I filled out the survey, but I don't necessarily think that I have CCD. I just can't say one way or the other. And to say that I have experienced CCD in my colonies is irresponsible, in my opinion.<


Like most emerging or re-emergent diseases, it is probably over-diagnosed. In animal agriculture, these things often come to peculiar resolutions. For instance, it may be as simple as overpastering/bad climate and a very common viral disease or trach mites. There is no harm to filling out the form. It may be that CCD is many types of diseases such as different classes of virus, all transmitted by varroa.


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## db_land

sqkcrk: the one hive I lost due so suspected CCD was in Clinton, NC. Maybe you're on to something!


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## Michael Palmer

>Mike, what would you do if the bees in question, in NY, were in Clinton County?

Well, I guess they were. I mean, the Souza yard is less than a mile from Chazy Orchards. DH had bees there...only 100 or so. So, what am I going to do? 

Try not to worry. Keep my eyes open, and take bunches of notes on weak/dead colonies.

Most importantly...

Keep on the sunny side
Always on the sunny side
Keep on the sunny side of life."

Enjoy the weather down there in SC. Bees had a brief poop yesterday.


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## suttonbeeman

ok guys here is the latest. It seems a pesticide(Idont know how to spell it..or even prounce it for that matter) but is is something like nicodertime in part of the name. I'm sure someone on here can get correct name. It is used to coat seeds(corn cotton) on lawns, golf courses, and tree sprays. It is systemic. Evidently it weakens the bees imune system and a fungus is the final killer. This chemical has already been banned in France....(same results)The chemical companies have already went to Penn St. and tried to get them to back off. Lots of money and profits to be lost here by chemical companies which is all they care about. This spray may be being used in almonds now....as lots of bees are dieing.


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## George Fergusson

Oh my. Where'd you get this information Sutton?

[ February 24, 2007, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: George Fergusson ]


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## suttonbeeman

It is from research that Penn st is doing


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## suttonbeeman

It is from research that Penn st is doing


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## jean-marc

So, we are talking about Imadocloprid (I think this is the correct spelling) topped off with some fungus? Do they know which one?

Imadocloprid is being used here as a spray for aphids on the blueberries.

Jean-Marc


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## Guest

Can you tell us who, at Penn State, can confirm this?


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## chillardbee

Well, this CCD is in the fraservalley. i've lost 50% of my hives though not all of the hives died off due to CCD. but i would say that 80% of those that did die was from CCD. 

It had me baffled because these hives were large double broodnest hives coming into the winter, they were treated for mites with formic and a finisher with oxalic. i though that maybe my hives died off either because of the mites, the treatments, or someone stole them because there were no dead bees to be found in or out of the hive. i was unaware of CCD until just recently but just by the symptoms that are described as CCD, well, thats what happened to me. the thing is that with other beeks in the same area as me have had no effects of this CCD. Go figure.


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## Aspera

Yes, systemic nicotinamide compounds are currently high on the list of CCD causes. This was also an unproven cause of similar problems in France. Just a disclaimer: I am not working in entomolgy or extension here at Penn State but I do ask a lot of questions.

[ February 24, 2007, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Aspera ]


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## soupcan

If this information has even a sniff of being true look out. They had tremendous problems with this stuff in Canada & France I believe in the last 6 or 7 years. I believe it was used as some type of cut worm or grub treatment on potato ground. This chemical will still be found in the ground some 3 or 4 years after the application. It has been shown to then be transfered the following years thru the root system & into the pollen of any blooming plant that is grown on this treated ground for years to come. This chemical is in the last couple of years being used for lawn grub control. Also saw that in the last 2 years that seed corn seed is treated with it while looking at the stacks of seed corn at my cousins place in the spring. I had in the back of my mind thinking about this chemical crap hoping it was not the cause of the problems. Let's hope it is not the smoking gun!!!!!!!!


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## loggermike

http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Actives/imidaclo.htm
There was a lot of info and discussion on BEE L about this and its effects on bees-should be in the archives. I don't know if anything was ever proven as to whether this was the culprit.


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## George Fergusson

>Imadocloprid

If it turns out that this is the root cause of CCD there will be hell to pay. It's proven nasty stuff in any case and if it's not causing the current problem, it is certainly just a matter of time before it's implicated in future problems.

I can't believe what we do to ourselves.


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## loggermike

I just found this:
http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=1214&category=Environment
Has an interview with Dave H.


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## George Fergusson

That's a good link Loggermike.


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## loggermike

It does sound like DH suspects imidacloprid poisoning.


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## suttonbeeman

nicotinamide is whaqt I was referring to. From what I've been told every new clue makes the picture more clear.....keeps pointing more and
more to nicotinamide! THis weakens the bees imune system and then the fungus finishes them off. The fungus is why the hives arent usually robbed out for 3 weeks or so! These chemical companies have deep pockets!!!! Gonna be a fight!


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## Jim Fischer

>> Oh my. Where'd you get this information Sutton?

> It is from research that Penn st is doing

OK, so when I call Penn State on Monday,
who do I ask for?

Diana Cox-Foster, Maryann Frazier, David Geiser,
Nancy Ostiguy, or Dennis vanEngelsdorp?


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## lake thompson honey

if this indeed is the problem, what can be done? is there anything we can do for our hives in the short term? what are the chances of getting this pesticide banned?


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## loggermike

Imidacloprid was one of the early systemic Neonicotinoids widely used.This was the one banned in France. There are other newer ones.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/PI117
(by the way ,I cant spell these things without cut and paste, let alone pronounce them without spitting beer on the keyboard  )

[ February 24, 2007, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: loggermike ]


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## suttonbeeman

I believe they are all working on it....the work on it is not finished but everything keeps pointing that way. My info came from a beekeeper who they had sampled bees from....you may try Maryann.


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## loggermike

>>what are the chances of getting this pesticide banned?
Gotta prove its the problem first







something the French beekeeps had a real hard time with from what I hear.


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## suttonbeeman

You sound like me loggermike...but the systemic Neonicotinoids seem to be the problem. As I kinda said before the chemical companies have already tried to get Penn State to back off! They are dirty and ruthlist....only concerned with $$$$ in their pockets!


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## suttonbeeman

Its going to be a fight!! From what I hear its going to take $250,000 just to ge tit in front of epa...and the chemical co will put a fight. After Penn St finishes their report a certified lab has to do its research..then it goes before EPA....about as hard to get it banned as get it approved!


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## George Fergusson

>OK, so when I call Penn State on Monday,
who do I ask for?

>Diana Cox-Foster, Maryann Frazier, David Geiser,
Nancy Ostiguy, or Dennis vanEngelsdorp?

Yes


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## suttonbeeman

I did a search on yahoo by typing in imidaclopriod. Here is what I found briefly....there will be Sublethal behavior effects at 0.1 ppb a dosage of 50 to 100 times LESS than the lethal effect. Will kill bees at 10 parts per billion an dremains in soil for over 2 yrs at leavels that effect bees. Present in nectar an dpollen at 3-7 parts per billion...(3-7 times higher than required to have sublethall effects on bees causing behavorial problems.) I suggest everyone should go do a search and read about this product!!!


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## Pembinabee

Willard,
Did you report your findings to any relevant person in Canada about your losses - and if so when?

Following the link supplied to the interviews, it must be noted that systemic insecticides: imidaclopride,clothianidin et thiamethoxam et al. were not mentioned at all by Maryann Frazier. She is part of the investigating group, not DH who presumably only was able to report what he saw.
I suggest that conversation between beekeepers is useful - but starting a rumour mill is not, especially with something as serious as this situation.
Also, one has to take great care what and how things are said - Manufacturers of phytoprotection products have long arms and ears.
Notes are taken and used in the most bizarre manner.

What will appear in public will often be very muted, with much proceeding in the background, due to legal procedure and strategy.

Pembinabee


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## suttonbeeman

here is a good article to read about this
www.valleyvoicenewspaper.com/vv/stories/beedeaths.htm

Seems this may be part of the problem weve been having with queens. After reading numerous articles about these insecticides it is clear that we are in trouble regardless what Bayer says! Read how it controls termites....doesnt kill them all but confuses them and the queen and colony dies.. The above article really hits the center...everyone needs to read it along with doing a search and reading about imidacloprid.


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## suttonbeeman

I agree with pemiabee....and for sure all the chemical companies care about is $$$$$. Even if Maryanne didnt say anything I was told from a very reliable source that a chemical company had already tried to get Penn St. to back off....an dwhen it failed at the research level went to the predident. (These companies furnish lots of research $$$) After reading the article in the post before this....it all falls togather
The nucs I lost in Florida next to DH the queens were laying drones(the ones that were present) The rest were empty hives 3 weeks after 3 frames brood, 1 frame honey and a cell was put in! All during a honey flow....only 30 or so aout of 150 had ANY bees and some of those had drone layers!
Needless to say we got problems..and I for sure dont think it is a rumor....will it be hard to prove...YES! kinda like arson..hard to catch someone lighting the match! BUt you can bet what the problem is!!!


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## Pembinabee

http://www.valleyvoicenewspaper.com/vv/stories/beedeaths.htm 

Eric Mussen appears to suggest (if the article correctly prints what was said) that Pesticides are to his mind unlikely to be the cause of population losses since they also occurred during the 1960s and 1975. 
This problem isn't brand new. It's something we had before, he said. We had the phenomenon in the mid-60s and then again in 1975. These new chemicals weren't on the market then.

Since it is not publically known what this bout of CCD is due to, logically it is impossible to state that we have seen it before. The cause in the periods mentioned is unknown.

During the periods mentioned such compounds as organochlorines (eg. lindane) and organophosphates (eg. parathion), were used indiscriminately during full blooming periods in proximity to bee colonies.

Should I draw a simple conclusion too ?

Pembinabee


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## Jim Fischer

I've not heard that the same symptoms were seen
in the prior die-offs of the 1960s and 1975,
where a large fraction of the adult bees are
"gone", yet the queen, some adults, and a large
patch of brood, larger than can be explained 
with the worker bees remain.

Has anyone heard this (that the symptoms ARE
the same)?

While I agree that we certainly have had other
widespread "die offs" decades ago, I don't think
it is accurate to say that they were related to 
the die off at hand, unless we can at least match
the overt symptoms.


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## Yukon Jack

I approached a very knowledgeable Midwest beekeeper which always seems to be a step ahead of most in beekeeping issues.

I said the CCD bees are gone.

"Dissappeared off the face of the earth?" was his answer.

Yup I said! What our researchers and beekeepers are saying!

The beekeeper laughed.

Said to take a hive or hives collapsing from CCD to an old abandon airstrip or concrete area for at least a quarter mile in all directions. Then lightly coat the bees with fluorescent paint. Come back at night with a black light and you will quickly find the missing bees and you can observe their symptoms under a bright light.

A sandy desert location would work also but the concrete location (large parking area) has been used the most.

Finding the missing bees would be key to finding out what the problem is.

Made sense to me!


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## Dave Welter

After reading about Imidacloprid and Neonicotinoids in the eariler posts, I ran into this link which I don't think has been posted before. 

web page 

Dave


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## soupcan

No this chemical is not brand new but it's use has increased many time fold in the last 24 to 36 months. As I said used on lawns for grub contral. How many million pounds of the crap do you suppose this adds up to across this country??? Seed corn treatment, here again how many million pounds of this stuff is used on seed corn across the states???


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## David Stewart

Edit: Moved to a more appropriate post below. Decided this thread was not an appropriate location for opinion. Ooops!

David

[ February 25, 2007, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: David Stewart ]


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## loggermike

Do a BEE L search on Imidacloprid .Theres a lot of info there:
http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l
I wondered how long it would be before it became a suspected problem here.These are big money products for Bayer. Some big toes could potentially get stepped on !


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## Dave Welter

I was reading about some of the problems that they had in France, and after Imidacloprid was banned there was a shift to using pesticides with Fipronil. Problems were also reported with Fipronil killing bees and several pesticides based on it were subsequently banned. Fipronil is the active ingredient in MaxForce Roach baits which some have used to control small hive beetles. From http://www.answers.com/topic/fipronil 

"Fipronil is a slow acting poison, when mixed with a bait it allows the poisoned insect time to return to the colony or haborage. In ****roaches the feces and carcass can contain sufficient residual pesticide to kill others in the same nesting site. In ants, the sharing of the bait among colony members assists in the spreading of the poison through out the colony. With the cascading effect, the projected kill rate is about 95% in 3 days for ants and ****roaches."

I wonder if small hive beetles exposed to MaxForce roach baits could spread Fipronil though a hive by contact or by their feces and cause a CCD like colony death.


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## Aspera

imidaclopriod is a very interesting compound. I know that it has been approved for topical use on mammals for decades, but I just recently became aware of its agronomic uses. A few milligrams applied to the back of a dog large dog, and you will literally see dying fleas falling off in minutes. The drug keep killing fleas for 3-4 weeks. I'm sure that it would only take a few micrograms to affect a colonies performance. I really hope that these compounds aren't broadcast into the environment, even if they have nothing to do with CCD.


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## Aspera

Fipronyl is another commonly used flea product that kills for 3-4 weeks....


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## loggermike

Imidacloprid has been used in almond and fruit orchards.
http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-PEST/2001/November/Day-07/p27601.htm
I don't know the current status of its use, or if it is even a problem for bees.There are plenty of beekeeps who are sure it is a problem.And as pointed out , beekeeps own use and abuse of chemicals will surely enter the equation.


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## Pembinabee

Do Honey bees in the USA collect pollen from Maize (Corn)?


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## JohnK and Sheri

>>>Do Honey bees in the USA collect pollen from Maize (Corn)?<<<

Yes


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## themrbee

>>>Do Honey bees in the USA collect pollen from Maize (Corn)?<<<

especially last year !


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## soupcan

Some types of field corn. Some types of sweet corn also.


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## Pembinabee

http://www.bayercropscience.com/bayer/cropscience/cscms.nsf/id/3099386F8EE4FDFCC1256D2C0041FB32
http://www.chinese-pesticide.com/insecticides/imidacloprid.htm

Ok,
Those of you who can read French would possibly find it to their advantage in sourcing past information and research results on Systemic insectides
Try: Apiservices.com
There is alot in English.
Be warned, there is enough material to spend several weeks of your time catching up on this story.
It is not clear cut and the information should be properly digested to ensure that bias is eliminated as far as possible

a little like the Oxalic treatment story - the work was done and is still being done in other countries than the US - suprised!

If systemics are (note that I say if!), then much misery may possibly have been avoided if previous warning that were given were taken up.


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## Pembinabee

This post corrects silly mistakes found in previous copy http://www.bayercropscience.com/bayer/cropscience/cscms.nsf/id/3099386F8EE4FDFCC1256D2C0041FB32
http://www.chinese-pesticide.com/insecticides/imidacloprid.htm

Ok,
Those of you who can read French would possibly find it to their advantage in sourcing past information and research results on Systemic insectides
Try: Apiservices.com
There is alot in English.
Be warned, there is enough material to spend several weeks of your time catching up on this story.
It is not clear cut and the information should be properly digested to ensure that bias is eliminated as far as possible

a little like the Oxalic treatment story - the work was done and is still being done in other countries than the US - suprised!

If systemics are (note that I say if!)implicated , then much misery may possibly have been avoided if previous warnings that were given were taken up.


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## Michael Palmer

>Some types of sweet corn also.

Does anyone remember micro-encapsulated Pencap-M? Sprayed on sweet corn was deadly to honeybee colonies. They take the capsules home, like pollen grains.


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## soupcan

Only use on large commercial outfits & I do not believe it is any longer legal for sweet corn use. If bees come in contact with this stuff the entire hive will die out very fast & you will have boxes full of dead bees. I know , had it happen a time or to in 30 years.


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## George Fergusson

Jerry Bromenshenk posted to Bee-L yesterday and to date it doesn't appear as though the CCD working group of which he is a member has reached a consensus about the cause of CCD. He mentioned a lot of possibilities, but no certainties.

This systemic pesticide theory may just be someone's pet theory. Doesn't mean it isn't true. Doesn't mean it is. I for one am hoping Jim had a chance to talk to people at Penn State today and will have something to report.


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## tecumseh

I know I am setting on the edge of my chair brother george. come on Jim, tell us what ya' know bro.


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## Jim Fischer

> come on Jim, tell us what ya' know bro

I don't know anything more than what is being
posted to Bee-L, the Penn State website, and
so on. I intend to stay the heck out of the
way, and let people do their work. If they
find anything specific or significant, they
certainly will post their musings and findings,
so we don't need to waste their time bugging
them for more frequent updates.

One of the most annoying types of boss is one
that expects _more frequent_ updates 
when a project is behind schedule due to an
unforeseen problem, as this takes resources
away from addressing the actual problem itself.

So, I'm gonna sit back and wait, and I would
suggest that we all do the same. I can assure
you that nothing is being kept in private, and
that everyone will be informed at the same time.


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## Jim Fischer

Just glanced at the NY Times, and noticed
a front-page story on CCD.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/27/business/27bees.html

Nothing new, but it is nice to see the problem being
considered "news" by the paper of record.


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## drobbins

I just heard there's going to be a piece about it on The CBS Morning Show in a few minutes
It will probably be on their website by this afternoon
sure is getting a lot of press

Dave


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## chillardbee

Pembinabee 

yes, I filled out a survey that i found on the Canadian Honey Council website. i have yet to talk to the provincial apiariest.

it seems quit a few beeks have suffered the same thing up here in Canada. the funny thing is that i know of 3 neighboring beeks around me hows hives are doing well and haven't had anywhere near the type of losses i had. very strange indeed. will it be there turn next year? will i be wiped out next year? who's to say?

concerning the link to the interveiw with Dave H. that loggermike put on page 2 here, the part about the impact of pollenation i think is going to be worse then expected because we're only talking about the honey bee's part of the pollenation. if these chems are effecting honey bees, how are they effecting bumblebees, wasps, leaf cutter bees, mason bees and even butterflies. if we had none of the above along with no honeybees, well, I guess growers are going to be heading out to their crops with feather in hand to pollinate their blooms. i think if these insects disapeared to an all time low number, food shortages will be a very real thing.


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## loggermike

Sometimes we need to stop and look at the big picture. While we know that the losses suffered are catastrophic for the beekeepers involved, as jlyon pointed out on another thread a million hives managed to show up for almond pollination. 

I had a 20% loss over winter (mites, poor summer pasture, some bad queens-the usual stuff)but still had enough good hives to meet my pollination commitments. I think this is probably more typical for beekeeps than the 60 or 80% losses.(I dont want to downplay the losses-I couldn't survive an 80%loss ) 

So unless this is something new that keeps spreading,there should be enough hives to meet demand. On the other hand if it turns out to be a new disease that is unstoppable, we are in BIG trouble.

The unbelievable amount of news coverage is a good thing for making people aware that we are doing something important. But even better is the fact that so many talented researchers are working on this. Even if CCD remains a mystery, a lot of good info is going to come out of all this research.


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## dickm

Just to show you that I care:
Neonicitiniods are a class of pesticides that came out in 1985, produced by the German company, Bayer. They are related to nicotine and like that drug, they operate on the nervous system. In insects they disrupt the nerve channel which results in death. Gaucho contains Imidacloprid which is one of the more popular forms. It is used on seeds but is taken up by the plant. See http://www.bulletinofinsectology.org/pdfarticles/vol56-2003-051-057maus.pdf for some Bayer sponsored research. This drug was thought to be the cause of massive die-offs in France (May disease) years ago. It was supposed that affected bees could not navigate home from the fields.. http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/imidacloprid_bayer.htm Other Neonicotinoids are: acetamiprid (Assail), imidacloprid (Gaucho,Admire,Provado), thiacloprid (Calypso), and thiamethoxam (Actara). 
The report on bee-deaths, published by the French Comité Scientifique et Technique (CST) 2003, shows that the use of the pesticide GAUCHO is jointly responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of bee colonies. Environmental activists and beekeeper unions are calling for a ban on the agricultural toxin The summary of the report states: "The results of the examination on the risks of the seeds-treatment GAUCHO are alarming. The treatment of seeds by GAUCHO is a significant risk to bees in several stages of life." The 108-page report was made by order of the agricultural ministry of France by the universities of Caen and Metz as well as by the Pasteur Institute. http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2003/11/26/millions_of_bees_dead_bayers_gaucho_blamed.htm The writer read a lot of old newsblogs on the subject. Heres a chilling line from one of them: The researchers also found traces of Imidaproclid in neighboring plants that were not treated by the pesticide. Gaucho was banned in France until a reassessment could be done in 2006. The ban was upheld in Apr of 06. 


Dickm


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## drobbins

well I was listening to NPR on the way to work this morning and they cleared it all up for me
they told me that the bees are all dieing from AIDS!
whoda thunk it?
all we need to do is increase funding for AIDS research and all our problems will go away
to be perfectly honest this was a blurb telling about what they'd be talking about later and they said the bees were dieing from "an AIDS like disease" and I didn't get to hear the actual piece so I don't know what it said but the blurb almost made me run in the ditch

Dave


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## BjornBee

I think many of the conditions being seen in CCD has to do with the bees immune system being weaken or completely gone.

I gave a talk to the Pennsylvania Franklin County club last night and used AIDS as an example in making points and comparisions. As far as I know, nobody from NPR attended.

I think its like looking at someone dying from pneumonia, but not realizing it was the lack of an immune system, destroyed by AIDS, that caused the death. I wonder if we are chasing many symptoms triggered after the fact, but by the same collaspe of the bees immune system. (Of course not actually aids) 

We know that many deseases, normally not life threatening, become killers once the immune system fails. AIDS is a great illustration of this. I think the bees are seeing the same type pattern with an immune system being destroyed.

Dave, I know your post was on a more light-hearted approach. I would probably run off into a ditch also if I heard that on NPR.

[ February 28, 2007, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


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## drobbins

Hi Bjorn

I know there seem to be many problems with bees that appear to involve a compromised immune system 
viruses and such pop to mind
I was just shocked to hear that on the radio

Dave


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## Michael Bush

>well I was listening to NPR on the way to work this morning and they cleared it all up for me
they told me that the bees are all dieing from AIDS!

Interesting since we've known for a very long time that Fluvalinate suppresses the bees' immune system.


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## BjornBee

And I know some beekeepers who use the pure form, and dump it in like candy....


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## Jim Fischer

The AIDS analogy is apt, in that Varroa do have
the net effect of suppressing normal immune response
and thereby making the bees (more) susceptible 
to a wide range of normally non-fatal things.

Yes, the press has picked up on a catch-phrase
that is not accurate, but the good news is that
it makes clear the serious nature of the problem
in terms to which anyone can relate.

Given the need for funding to be allocated for
all the travel and extra work, things like a
front-page story in the New York Times certainly
can't hurt, even if it is less accurate than
we'd like.


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## drobbins

I would point out that in my mind there is a HUGE difference in Bjorn comparing a honeybee immunodeficiency to AIDS at a beekeepers meeting, and NPR doing the same thing
they're addressing WAY different audiences
all we need is people thinking that a bee sting will give you AIDS

Dave


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## leafcutter

Just a question on methodology of gathering data on CCD. 

In the Indiana Beekeeping school article posted at the beginning of this thread, David Bromenshenk implies that they really aren't looking at data from folks who dont manage large apiaries:

"A beekeeper with 1-2 hives and 1-2 years of experience is too small to tell - may just have been lucky."

He's right, with a small number of hives per keeper, your margin of error rises for many reasons.

But. There were studies a few years back in France that showed that urban bee hives were actually healthier than rural hives, since they were not exposed to so many chemicals. I would think that it would be helpful to know if CCD has tended to spare urban hobby beeks, yet not spare rural hobby beeks.

To get data on urban vs agriculture, youd pretty much have to focus exclusively on the little guys. I can't imagine someone in Oakland where my hives live with an Apiary with 5,000 hives. Yet I haven't heard folks complaining about unusually high winter loss rates.


Just a thought; sorry if its already been addressed elsewhere and I missed it.


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## drobbins

interesting thought
I made a little map where people could post stuff about this

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/bees_dying/input.php

so far no "big boys" have posted anything (I don't have a white lab coat)
it's all been hobbyists (I think, sorry, I haven't even looked at it in a while)
I should have asked if people were urban or rural

Dave


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## Pembinabee

Chillard,
Thanks for replying to my question.

I would suggest that you mail: [email protected] - provincial apiarist for Alberta (I suppose that you knew already).
He would be most interested in your comments - whether the losses are CCD or not. Please do pass on the info.


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## lake thompson honey

What came out of the big secret meeting in Florida? Has anyone heard anything lately?


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## soupcan

*What Meeting*

Have not heard a word from our Flordia people


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## Joel

*not so new CCD*

Came accross an Article in Nov. 2002 Bee Culture by James Tew, Ohio State U. Story was on Disappearing disease. Following are highlights.

History - First described in 1915

Characteristics: 1 Adult bee loss with no accum. at hive entrance
2. Adult bee loss after a cool damp spring-losses also 
reported in the summer and Autumn.
3. Queens are the last hive individuals to be affected
4. Pollen and honey stores are strangely normal
5. A disproportionate brood/adult bee ratio
6) Spotty outbreaks

Honestly characteristics are borad and indistinct- except for on- addult bees are mysteriously gone. 
In 1985 Dr. Roger Morse wrote "It seems unlikely that any one cause produces all the losses attributed to Disappearing disease.

Possible causes: 1. pesticide exposure
2. Nosema Disease
3. Trachael mites
4. Nutirtional shortages
5. Environmental conditions - predominantly weather
6. Toxid pollen or nectar
7. Genetic Disorders
8. Colony Stress
9. Viral infections


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## tecumseh

from joels list:
4. Pollen and honey stores are strangely normal

tecumseh replies:
the producer description (florida) suggested that the pollen and honey was not exactly normal since these stores in affected hives although unguarded was not rob out by healthy hives and did not seem to attract shb or moth until the hive was aired out. very pecular.


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## BjornBee

I have heard some say that "pollen was ample in the CCD colonies", or something along the lines that the "bees had pollen in some way, and thereby suggesting, and even ruling out "pollen" as a problem, is a little missleading and in my view wrong. here's why.

The fact that pollen is seen means little. I have been questioning pollen, the quality of pollen, the quality of supplemental feeding, as in regards to bee protein levels and stress. But was the protein analyzed for nutrition value and needed levels of protein and associated amino acids? I have not heard thus far. I do know that bee bread samples were taken and are being looked at.

So you seen pollen frames inside a CCD hive and dismiss protein levels. What pollen are we talking about? Vine crop pollen? If your bees are protein deficient, and just continue to feed into the fall with pollen collected earlier from vine crops and other potentially harmfull or poor quality, they will crash just the same. No amount of poor quality pollen will have them become more healthier.

I still suggest that bee protein levels need to be examined, pollen stores from CCD hives need to be analyzed, and other factors looked at before food stores and pollen in particular can be scratched from the list.

I am glad to see that Penn State (site Jim F. recently posted) has nutrition and in particular "bee protein in relationship to stress" as a point for research.


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## Jim Fischer

*CCD NOT Found in Hawaii*

Despite early reports that were presented as
authoritative, symptoms of CCD were NOT seen in Hawaii.

What they had was a simple pesticide kill at one location
on one island, and this incident was offered up as a TESTBED 
to compare and contrast a known "Imidiclorprid kill" to what 
is being seen with CCD.

The symptoms were not at all similar to CCD, but the offer of 
the kill as a "testbed" may have resulted in garbled communications.


This clarification comes from Gus Rouse (Kona Queen) in Hawaii
in an e-mail to me:

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"This all came about after we received a "spray kill" on one location. 
The farmer had notified me that he had used the systemic imidiclorprid. 
I offered up this info to the [Board Of Directors] of [the American 
Beekeeping Federation] as a possible way to clarify this particular cause 
to CCD. My thinking was that tests could be done on my bees without the 
complications of varroa mites or controls, viruses, etc. 

Of course within 48 hours we were getting calls from all over the country! 
We are fine.

I contacted Dennis and Mary Ann at Penn State and they had me do a few things. 
For one, we put out combs and they were robbed out in a few hours. 
Two, just the field force was damaged and three, all hives recovered 
quickly. We have just had another coffee bloom and I have been checking 
for damage and have seen none to date."

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


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## George Fergusson

>Despite early reports that were presented as
authoritative, symptoms of CCD were NOT seen in Hawaii.

So I guess varroa are back on the table as a potential vector for diseases and viruses contributing to CCD. They had been dismissed as a contributing factor on the basis, now shown to be false, that CCD had been discovered in varroa-free Hawaii.


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## Ian

How significant do they firgure pollinaiton has on the bee hives, 
that is the huge stress placed on the hives during transport?


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## Aspera

It would have been fairly simple to do HPLC and try and detect residues on these combs/bees. I wonder why there was no interst in this. As for the robbing issue, I'm not sure that this is really informative. Lack of robbing just indicates lack or foraging, which probably just indicates lack of foragers. I'm not so certain about this idea of CCD producing hive products so sinister that no bee will touch them. Its nice that Hawaii is untouched, but it would have been very informative to find CCD in a place without varroa, and with obviously different climatic patterns.


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## dickm

>>>I do know that bee bread samples were taken and are being looked at.<<<


I helped with samples. Brood, honey and pollen were sampled from hives in various stages of distress. So were any bees, some in alcohol and others were frozen so they coud get to the lab intact. In addition, infected and dead hives were mapped within each yard. This stuff will be analyzed to death.

dickm


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## BjornBee

dickm, I've looked at some of the frozen samples. Some pretty funky stuff growing out of those bees. But I think we are looking at secondary deseases that were opportunistic and took advantage of unhealthy and dying bees.

Its not so much "proving" one theory, its disproving all the others to make sure you have the correct item or cause. That in itself will be very daunting as I feel the combination of factors are at play. This makes it a very long process. And in the end, we may see just a list of "recommendations" of better beekeeping practices instead of some clearly defined source that some want to point fingers at.


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## Atlas

*CCD and pesticides*

Here is a resent(3-16-2007) article and some interviews on CCD and a possible pesticide relation, interesting: 

http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=1223&category=Environment


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## Michael Palmer

>So I guess varroa are back on the table as a potential vector for diseases and viruses contributing to CCD.

On Friday, I spoke to a state apiculturist, who inspects thousands of colonies. In May, he took samples of bees from colonies belonging to one of the beekeepers who started this "CCD" thing. The samples had very high Tracheal and Varroa loads. He told that beekeeper that unless he did something, his bees would crash in the fall. They did just that.

He still has samples of these bees in vials. He offered the samples to the CCD investigators, and they refused. 

I find that very odd.


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## Jeffzhear

Mike, I find it odd that an inspector would want to even keep samples of bees from mite infested apiaries. The inspectors that have inspected my yards over the years have never kept samples, that I am aware of. Oh, I stand corrected; they took samples and mailed them to Beltsville <AFB>, but didn't keep them themselves.

Further, from a research point of view (and I am not a researcher), but I would think that the researchers would want to have control of the samples taken, from collection to analysis. There are too many variables and outside influences that could skew the samples. From how things were handled, stored, (maybe a mix up in samples from different yards), unethical behavior, etc. And, there was no inference on my behalf regarding the inspector you know, that had samples and offered them to the CCD researchers. I just think there are too many variables that are beyond the control of the researchers if in-fact they are not the ones directly sampling. 

Just my thoughts, for what they are worth.
Regards, J


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## George Fergusson

>Further, from a research point of view (and I am not a researcher), but I would think that the researchers would want to have control of the samples taken, from collection to analysis.

This is normally a valid concern, but is evidence without a complete and rigorously documented chain of authenticity completely useless? I don't think so. We're not talking about sending an innocent person to the electric chair here, they're investigating dead bees. I'd think that any evidence, even if heavily salted, could prove to be useful.

I evaluate evidence in my job all the time, and it comes from many sources. Some evidence is more credible than other evidence. You don't hang your hat on non-credible evidence, but sometimes seemingly useless evidence provides a clue for a new direction of investigation. You don't know- and you'll never know, if you don't look at everything you can get your hands on.

Earlier in this thread, leafcutter mentioned that the CCD group was not pursuing reports from amateur or otherwise inexperienced beekeepers that reported CCD or CCD-like losses, preferring to concentrate on beekeepers that were managing large apiaries. Of course, I don't know if that's true or not because it's hearsay


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## dickm

The researchers are awash in samples that were taken properly and stored immediately in alcohol or frozen, dated and moved quickly to a lab. Some of the tests cost $50 EACH. I expect some cost much more. Take 1 bee. Carefully dissect it. Make a slide of it's entrails or breathing apparatus. Look at it through the microscope. Create a report on this. Then take the next bee out of the package, etc, etc. ...and that's the easy stuff. Some of these samples are going to the most sophisticated gas chromatograpy on the planet. Dennis van Englesdorp ( Penn researcher) has a connection with a dude from medical research who can pinpoint any fungus ever recorded. The man is volunteeering his time but the machine needs to be paid. Can you see why, at this point, a baggy full of bees might be turned town? Sure you can. Make a donation if you are frustrated.

dickm


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## blammer

There is some very interesting info at WNCBEES.org website. You can look for it on the front page under Hot Topics.


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## Michael Palmer

>Can you see why, at this point, a baggy full of bees might be turned town?

Of course. But, there are samples, and there are samples. I refered to vials of bees from a beekeeper who started this CCD thing. These bees were sampled early in the season, and I would think they would be more valuable than just any old sample.


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## dickm

Jerry Bromenshenk addressed this on Be-L. For those who don't read that illustrious source...he said about what I said above. There isn't enough money to do more than they are doing and they want samples taken the way they take them.

dickm


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