# 8 or 10 frame



## JTGaraas (Jun 7, 2014)

Only two (2) possible choices, but there are probably at least three (3) beekeeper opinions. I choose 8 frame deeps for brood, and 8 frame mediums for honey supers. Weight and center of gravity dictate smart lifting for an old guy!


----------



## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Biggest advantage to 8 frame is the amount of weight in a full box, either a medium or a deep, it's lighter than a 10 frames box of the same size. Lots of manufacturers carry 8 frame equipment also. You can also take an empty box and transfer frames to it instead of lifting full boxes if you want to go 10 frame. Lots of discussion on the two. Search for threads using "8 frame vs 10 frame" and you should come up with lots of different views on the two. 
Welcome to BeeSource if I haven't said so on another thread.


----------



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I am a petite woman in my sixties; I use 10-frame,_ triple_ deeps as my brood area.

If the box is heavy, simply take out a couple of outer frames before lifting it. In practice I find a fully stocked medium seems heavier than a 10-frame deep from the brood nest, as brood weighs less than honey, even with the associated honey. Put the removed frames in a quiet box during the lift. The bees on them will be fine.

I think uninsulated 8-frame stacks look too chilly for my tastes. Plus if you want to leave a lot of wintering honey you'll be looking at a taller stack. OTOH, I think bees winter better in a narrower volume. I rearrange my 10-frames into 8-frames by adding insulation panels inside. (Every year but this one - and I will revert back next year probably to 9-frames, even though my bees are doing OK in 10-frames.)

Anyway you look at it, beekeeping is physically demanding. If you have real lifting issues, perhaps you should consider a horizontal hive. 

Enj.


----------



## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"Anyway you look at it, beekeeping is physically demanding. If you have real lifting issues, perhaps you should consider a horizontal hive.
or engage a "petite woman" to help with the lifting!! Good for you!!


----------



## mrflegel (Mar 23, 2014)

I have gone to 8 frame deeps for everything. One size frame to worry about and the weight isn't as bad. Fewer frames to handle etc.
May this cold end soon.
Mike


----------



## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

8 frame mediums for me especially since my wife joined me


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I went with 8 frame for a while and I like them. But for me, it all comes down to what efficiencies you require. If you are running less than 10 or 20 hives, I think it's great. But once you try to go beyond that, I find the expense becomes an inefficiency that's harder to ignore. Each 8 frame box costs you about the same to make or buy, but you're losing 2 frames per box of accommodation for bees.

I' really in search of the right efficiencies. Therefore I'm presently using one frame size, and two boxes sizes (4 frame nuc and 10 frame deep).

Adam


----------



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

If you are worried about the weight of the boxes, just move frames instead of the full box. If you only plan have to have a few colonies, and are going to keep them in one bee yard, the heaviest weight you will have to lift is the weight of full honey super. If you decide to sell the equipment later the 10 frame will sell faster than will the 8 frame boxes.

As a hobby beekeeper you won't have to worry if you decide to use different frame depths, the deeps for brood and the mediums or shallows for honey supers, your operation will not be that complicated. My favorite hive configuration using Langstroth 10 frame boxes is a deep on the bottom board and 2 mediums above it for my brood/food chambers, and mediums for the honey supers. I never have to lift anything heavier than a 10 frame box of honey, and if I do need to move the deep, it is not all that heavy with just brood in it.


----------



## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

You could allis add a couple follower board or insulation board And turn that 10 into a 8 framer


----------



## Crood (May 4, 2015)

I'm going into my second year using all 8 frame mediums. One aspect I did not consider/appreciate was that, as a new beekeeper, it takes me a lot longer to perform an inspection than a seasoned veteran. This issue is compounded by having more boxes than I would have if I went with 10 frame equipment instead. If I was doing it all over, I would go with 10 frame equipment. That being said, I'm a 37 year old guy with a decent back, so weight isn't much of an issue for me... yet.


----------



## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

> That being said, I'm a 37 year old guy with a decent back, so weight isn't much of an issue for me... yet. 

Just wait a little.


----------



## ddb123 (Jun 20, 2012)

The only time I move a box full of frames all at once is when I'm bringing supers from my trailer into my house. Otherwise, it's one frame at a time, so 10 frame deeps make the most sense for me.


----------



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

At one time I had considered 8 frame boxes, My reasoning was they the bees chimney up the center so why waste the space. As time went by I began to realize that the frames of stores that were left on the outside actually served two functions. One, they Provide a bit of a barrier against prevailing wind in northern latitudes. Two, they store valuable nutrition for early spring at a time when the girls really can use it. Went back to 10 frames and never looked back. 

ENJ: do you use the definition of petite from our generation, Or todays? :lpf:


----------



## ritan1 (Nov 10, 2015)

I am making the transition from 10-deeps to 8-mediums, by adding new hives, but I am keeping all of my 10 equipment just in case. I find 10 deeps difficult to carry even empty, not just because they are heavy but because they are cumbersome (I'm about 5'2", over 60, with a bad shoulder). I find that the 8-mediums are not only lighter, but the center of gravity is different and so much easier for me to carry. This will be my first year with them and I hope that it pans out. I'm not dumping my 10-deeps though. I'm discovering that not only is all beekeeping local, it's also personal!

BTW, although there is undoubtedly more equipment available for the 10-deep, there is nothing I needed that I couldn't find in the 8-medium. I find there's a lot of stuff that catches my eye that I really don't need. I'm trying to scale back on extraneous bee stuff.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Putting cleats on boxes makes them a WHOLE lot easier to manage/lift. Try it, you'll soon see.


----------



## JTGaraas (Jun 7, 2014)

SNL refers to a cleat, and suggests that lifting and managing the hive box is made easier if they exist. I know a cleat can be used to assist when using ropes (boats and docks; sails; etc.), but use of cleats when lifting hives escapes me (unless using a crane?). My boxes have handholds that are easily used (all 4 sides - Mann Lake). I am curious; please explain.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

The clear in this instance is no more than 3/4x2x16.25 strip that is attached to the box on the short ends. I usually place mine about 1.5" from the top. (Far enuff down, do that the TC clears. 
Others I know fasten them at the top. 
It makes lifting so much easier than using "finger holds."


----------



## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

JTGaraas said:


> SNL refers to a cleat, and suggests that lifting and managing the hive box is made easier if they exist. I know a cleat can be used to assist when using ropes (boats and docks; sails; etc.), but use of cleats when lifting hives escapes me (unless using a crane?). My boxes have handholds that are easily used (all 4 sides - Mann Lake). I am curious; please explain.


I believe by cleat he means a small board that is attached to the box as opposed to a groove machined into the box. He does not mean the type of cleat used on docks etc. that ropes are attached to.

Edit to add:
Oops! Just noticed that he explained it already.


----------



## JTGaraas (Jun 7, 2014)

Thanks for the information SNL and ralittlefield. Words mean different things around this country; I did a Google search before I posted and found "foundation cleats" offered for sale by Kelley' Bees, and a YouTube showing a guy removing a "cleat" from a foundation frame. My only experience with "cleats" previously involved tying down boats, and baseball shoes, neither of which provided a clue to lifting bee boxes. Beekeeping is interesting, addictive, and it expands your vocabulary!


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Cleat has a lot of different meanings depending on how the word is used.

a wedge-shaped block fastened to a surface to serve as a check or support: He nailed cleats into the sides of the bookcase to keep the supports from slipping. This is the same usage as a cleat nailed to the sides of a box for easier lifting.

You are referencing a "belaying cleat" which is used to tie off a boat.


----------



## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

I decided to go with 8 frame equipment when I started out.......then found a good deal buying out a friend who was selling out so ended up with 10 frame equipment. I started two hives last summer with 8 frame deeps for the brood box and plan to use 8 frame mediums for the honey supers. I'll see how I like it and if it works out, I'll switch everything to 8 frame.

By the way, the 8 frame equipment has a bit more extra room (width) than the 10 frame equipment. A lot of folks evenly space 9 frames in 10-frame equipment so the bees have more room build out wax where each frame holds more honey. You can space 8 frames in an 8-frame equipment almost as much as spacing 9 frames in 10 frame boxes.......so the net loss is 1 frame per box using 8 frame equipment. Also, if you plane the frames to get closer to the lower recommendations for bee spacing, you can fit 9 frames in an 8 frame brood box.

The argument about the center of gravity being closer to your body while lifting/carrying 8 frame equipment is valid in my experience. Also, it seems you will always need to lift entire boxes at times......it would be tiring and take a long time to move equipment one frame at a time.


----------



## Dunkel (Jun 12, 2009)

If I was starting over I would do 8 frame and possibly all deeps. I think the bees may use the space more efficiently. The reason for medium supers maybe because of the short fast flows in my area, to get completed frames. Too late for me, I'm not switching now. But I may end up with mediums later on.


----------



## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

My neighbor changed to 8 frame equipment -- she could not pick up a ten frame deep (she's quite small, I think the box was a very substantial portion of her own weight!). She's quite happy with them and her bees are fine. Three hives.

The bees will be fine no matter what you use. I do all ten frame equipment, but I can see why eight frame is attractive.

Peter


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am leaning toward 8 but there is so much more equipment available for 10 frame.

Everything available for a 10 frame is available for an 8 frame. The few things I can't find are styrofoam boxes, plastic boxes and maybe a particular brand of top feeder. But top feeders are available as are queen excluders, propolis traps (though you could use window screen or cut one down), every kind of top or bottom... I used to list wood bound queen excluders as not available but they tell me Rossman's sells them though you may have to request them. What item do you think is available for a ten frame hive and not an eight frame hive?


----------



## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

I've seen a couple of companies offering the wood bound 8 fr excluders this year. Like MB said, just about everything in 10 fr is available in 8 fr. More companies are offering more 8 fr equipment this year than last year.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I have 10-frame equipment, as it easily is converted to 8-frame equipment by use of hive dummies or frame feeders.

That said, I am going to give Jumbo Dadants with 12 narrow (1-1/4") frames and 5.1mm foundation a try. Camille Pierre Dadant was very firmly convinced that the biggest advantage was the deeper frames, and another significant advantage was sufficient volume for your best queens to quickly lay up a strong workforce. 

Darrel Jones is switching over to this format, seeking better conditions for his queens. His experience with narrow frames (11 frames in a standard 10-frame Langstroth box) and small-cell foundation leads him to believe that his bees populate up 2 weeks earlier in the Spring. I live out here near the almonds...so that 2 weeks jump will be a big help (and more profit), also with earlier queen rearing.

I will likely try using Lauri Miller's foundation scheme, with 4" of open space on each side of the foundation for the bees to make drone / honey storage comb. Mite control involves cutting out the drone comb with a knife.

It will take two or three years to get significant results. I expect a learning curve to throw things off a bit at first.

I suggest a beginner go with as standard of equipment as possible until having decided what works in his/her area.


----------



## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I'm experimenting with some "extra deep" boxes (11.25") with frames to match. About an inch and a half deeper than standard deep frames, with 11 in a box so far.

Only one hive successfully transferred so far, from a swarm I caught last year. They had an amazing number of mites dropping all spring, too small to treat with formic acid, so that got a treatment in August. Seem to have done OK although they didn't build up as much as I expected, just extra deep box and a medium, but they are still heavy as of last weekend when they were flying. Will see how spring goes.

I've been using mostly narrow frames in the brood boxes for the last couple years, and so far I've not lost a hive in winter (I do manage to kill of quite a few in spring and summer, though!). The one hive I had on all narrow stuff built up amazingly, but I was late in trying to do a cutdown split and they swarmed, then failed to re-queen and for a number of reasons I never got them a laying queen before the wax moths did them in.

I think I will stick with narrow frames for brood, they seem to do better. I make all my own equipment, so can easily make the narrow frames.

Peter


----------



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

This brings up two questions. 

If two 10 frame deeps are considered a good brood chamber size and three 10 frame mediums is somewhat the equivalent, how many 8 frame medium supers would you need to equal them? 4?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

2 ten frame deeps = 3 ten frame mediums = 4 eight frame mediums


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

2 ten frame deeps (2701 sq in) = 3 ten frame mediums (2796 sq in) = 4 eight frame mediums (2982 sq in). This is the usable square inches of honey storage space, but is it the usable square inches when used as brood boxes? An important aspect is omitted by not considering lost brood space on the outside combs and in the corners of frames. I figured this with 9 square inches of lost space per corner which may or may not be a good number depending on the colony and the queen.

2 ten frame deeps lose 541 square inches in 4 outside combs and lose 576 more square inches in 16*4=64 corners
3 ten frame mediums lose 560 square inches in 6 outside combs and lose 864 more square inches in 24*4=98 corners
4 eight frame mediums lose 746 square inches in 8 outside combs and lose 864 more square inches in 24*4=98 corners

When you subtract the wasted space, you get:
2 ten frame deeps give 1584 square inches of usable brood space
3 ten frame mediums give 1372 square inches of usable brood space
4 eight frame mediums give 1372 square inches of usable brood space

A square deep brood chamber with two outside combs, 12 inside combs, and 48 corners provides 2389 total square inches with 342 square inches lost in 2 outside combs, 432 square inches lost in 48 corners, and winds up with a total of 1615 square inches of usable brood space. This is a small amount more than a Langstroth 2 deep hive.

How many cells of brood could each configuration hold? 2 langs = 87,595, both 3 and 4 medium configurations give 75,872, and the square deep gives 89,306.


----------



## Joe Hillmann (Apr 27, 2015)

JTGaraas said:


> SNL refers to a cleat, and suggests that lifting and managing the hive box is made easier if they exist. I know a cleat can be used to assist when using ropes (boats and docks; sails; etc.), but use of cleats when lifting hives escapes me (unless using a crane?). My boxes have handholds that are easily used (all 4 sides - Mann Lake). I am curious; please explain.


It is a different type of cleat. This is what they are talking about. https://urbanbeeprojectseattledotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/hive1.gif?w=173&h=300
It is a warre hive and instead of handholds cut in they have handles/cleats nailed on. 

The downside of them is you cant stack the hives so they are touching tight together for warmth in the winter and they may create an area that holds water and starts rot.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>they may create an area that holds water and starts rot.

You can avoid the rot problem and make a cleat offering a better grip if you bevel both the top and bottom at about a 20 degree angle. 
I make them 2" wide out of 3/4" thick stock and place their top in line with the top of the handhold or top of the 2nd finger joint. This way you can stand the box on end and also carry the box one handed from the end with your thumb over the top of the rabbeted end and fingers on the bottom of the beveled cleat. The cleats show were made of 1" stock which I decided I didn't like.


----------



## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I don't use full width ones, so mine are more like handles. Vastly nicer to pick up that those stinking cut-out finger tip holds.

I cut mine at a 30 degree angle and cross nail and glue them on down far enough the telescoping cover won't sit on them, mostly level and more or less centered.

The angle cut gives you a nice grip and sheds water. I round off the lower edge so it's not sharp.

Peter


----------



## ericw (Feb 11, 2016)

Well, I've started building 8 frame mediums. Thanks, all. 

I'd upload photos but every time I try it says Photo Upload failed.


----------

