# Addressing High Nosema Counts



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Today I got the Lab Report from USDA-ARS Beltsville. Two composite samples were taken from each of three yards. The results are as follows.

O'Niel Yd Sample #1-- Had an average of 6,650,000 Nosema Spores per Bee.
Sample #2--Had an average of 900,000 Nosema Spores Per Bee

Steinberg Yd Sample #1--Had an average of 2,150,000 Nosema Spores per Bee.
Sample #2--Had an average of 2,300,000 Nosema Spores per Bee.

Kingston Yd Sample #1--Had an average of 4,500,000 Nosema Spores per Bee.
Sample #2--Had an average of 1,800,000 Nosema Spores per Bee.

So, what's the recommended next step? Feeding Fumidil B in syrup? 

On the report it says Diagnosis- Both Samples- Nosema Disease(Nosema sp.). What does the "sp." mean? Specific? Or what?

My honey crop has been really poor this year. Along w/ the high Mite Count, I imagine the high Nosema count would attribute to the cause of low honey production?

Any advice from those who have had good results addressing High Nosema Counts?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Nosema sp

It stands for "Species" and means they did not specify what the Species is so it could be apis, or cerana (or from a taxonomy point of view rather than a beekeeping point of view any other Nosema species).


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

There are more than two? Are others specific to different types of insects? Like Cricket Specific Nosema? I guess I'd better look that up. Thanks.


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## 67630 (Jul 17, 2008)

Mark, you didnt mention feeding. Do/did you? Would you not benefit from feeding patties? More protein cant hurt, right?


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Were the samples taken from the entrance? Off of brood comb? Off of Honey frames? That will change on how to guage the actual spore count. Your in luck.....maybe. Your samples show low spore count IMHO. I personally would drench with fumagillin. It helped my bees tremendously.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael,
no, no feeding yet. I guess if the patties had fumagillin in them that might be a good idea.

Beeslave, do you mean spraying it on the bees?

Samples were taken at the entrance by gathering bees getting set to depart for foraging.

Low spore counts when 1,000,000 spores per bee is the recommended treatment threshold?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

feed a quality sub, and through the fumagillin in the trash can.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

here is a site with the most information available that I have found Rany Olivers site.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/

I don't agree with all he says, but much of it is very helpfull. What I have learned/think from his posts on bee-l and from post from Bob Harrison <[email protected]>
is that there appears to be multiple varieties of nosema c. as the symptoms appear to differ from the west coast(or warmer climates) verses norther climates. randy says in my opinion its a summer disease and you can ignore it. bob harrison says treat with fumidil in the fall for two years and then your bees will get more productive. I don't care what anyone says up here I have found the hives that I'm able to treat, after a year or two get more productive. best example I can give Is my best yard(never treated) just fell apart this spring, no obvious reason, I moved in three hives from a yard that had been treated the previous 3 years. The yard didn't go bad the bees did, the moved hives went crazy making honey, the hives that hadn't been treated made an ok crop by the end of the year, but no comparison, same queens same age, from same batch of queens from same nuc yard.
If I remember your count was lower last year, so you are going into the second year. I would give them fumidil when you feed them in S.C, and again in the spring. and let us know.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> feed a quality sub, and through the fumagillin in the trash can.


Is that what I should have done earlier in the season? Say, before or after pollination? Back when the hives were really strong and fat?

Is my theory on lack of honey a sound idea? That the heavy mite counts and Nosema levels has contributed to the low production in the colonies that are alive and producing and nothing from the ones that aren't, because of the Varroa and Nosema?

I didn't do a mite treatment in the Spring. I did feed a pollen sub in Feb, a month before splitting. But not since. SC usually has excellent pollen for growing nucs and queens.

I did have some trouble w/ what was thought to be a problem from Yellow Jasmine. But, maybe it was something else.

So Keith, feed a quality pollen sub and forget fumagillin to treat against the Nosema? Any suggestions where I can get such a product? I am more into purchasing things I don't have equipment to produce or know how to produce well.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mike, relativily high one year. Over 2.5million spores per bee ave. Then last year alot lower. Now greatly higher.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Mark, you can usally back step your tracks and find where the bees started to stumble, stress is a quite killer. Just like in the Dakotas right now alot of nosema showing up, a cool wet summer for them. 

As far as a good sub.... well... something with 17% pluse on the protein & 5-8% on fats, good luck Mark, feed'em well and they will take care of themself's.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I tend to leave more honey on my hives than others I know well do. W/ the poor crop, I am tempted to rob even more and feed more. My gut tells me NO. My pocketbook says Yeah. But, even if I robbed all the honey my bees have, I don't know that I would have the honey I sold last year. And the bees would be stressed, wouldn't they?

So, Keith. How often and when do you recommend feeding "a good sub"? I fed a patty last Dec. and then another in Feb.. I imagine the real benefit comes from always having it present and not spaced out by months, right? 

What about the good goldenrod pollen they are bringing in now? Shouldn't that carry them a long way? Since, were I to leave them here for the winter, and to their own devices, that stored pollen should last them the winter.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Mark, just remember, most pollen coming in this time of year is "stored pollen" what you need is consumed pollen(sub), ie, moving thru the mid gut.

There is a HUGE difference between stored & consumed (sp).

MOST beekeepers think aw theres pollen coming in no need to feed this fall....... then..... April comes around & darn lost those bees again,I guess I need to get a different queen supplier, Mark, ever hear that before?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, I have. 

When and how often?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Mark, I would give two five pound rounds, one now and one in two weeks. Hey Mark, Mike there in NY has made some nice sounding sub it's in your neck of the woods too.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What about the Pattys from Mann Lake? Would they ber good to use?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> I would give two five pound rounds, one now and one in two weeks.


In this part of the country, if we gave ours a 5lb pollen sub patty, in two weeks we wouldn't need a second one. We'd be so overrun with small hive beetle larvae.....


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Are you in NY with Mark?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Are you in NY with Mark?


Just commenting.....excuse me.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>There are more than two? Are others specific to different types of insects? Like Cricket Specific Nosema? 

Those are the only two that affect honey bees. But yes, there are many species of Nosema. 

Nosema algerae in mosquitoes
Nosema antheraeae and Nosema bombycis in silkworms
Nosema birgii and Nosema chaetocnemae and osema couilloudi and Nosema equestris in beetles
Nosema bombi in bumble bees
Nosema carpocapsae and Nosema chrysorrhoeae in moths
... and several hundred more...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Talked w/ a friend whose perspective and experience I really hold in high regard. He says my counts aren't really all that high and that we really don't know what they mean, how they effect our colonies. 10 million he feels is high. But not 2 million or an average of 3 million average across the samples. He suggested Mann Lake Pollen Sub w/ fumidill.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

beemandan said:


> In this part of the country, if we gave ours a 5lb pollen sub patty, in two weeks we wouldn't need a second one. We'd be so overrun with small hive beetle larvae.....


No matter where you are - that needed saying because everyone that reads this thread might not know that pollen sub can aggravate a hive beetle problem.
:thumbsup:


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

David LaFerney said:


> that needed saying


I agree David....but if your business was selling pollen sub you might not feel the same.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

No no no. That's not what I meant at all. No one would profit from the misuse of their product causing a bad experience. I'm sure that Keith (and all the others) want their customers to experience all kinds of joy from the use of their sub, so that we will all become evangelists, and repeat customers.

I used another sub last winter, and was very impressed with the results, and I'll be using one kind or another (the best one I can get and afford) from now on I expect.

My point was that a new bee keeper reading this thread and not being aware of SHB might just hear "feeding pollen sub will cure nosema, and make all my dreams come true!"


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Me thinks sometimes that since were talking on the "commercial" thread that it would already be understood, maybe sometimes I forget that.

But, there is one outfit in the Houston TX area that said my sub did the best he's seen with shb.

ps..... he runs over 20,000 hives.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Then what you should do is ship orders for 40 pounds or so, and charge enough to make you happy to do it - so us little guys can get on the band wagon.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> since were talking on the "commercial" thread that it would already be understood, maybe sometimes I forget that.


Me thinks that, although the topics are intended to be 'commercial' in their nature, the audience is broader.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> He suggested Mann Lake Pollen Sub w/ fumidill.


does he add the fumidill himself? I can't find any pollen patties that are in there cataloge that say they have fumidill in them. How much fumidill does he add and how? I've got some yard that get so heavy in the fall have never been able to feed fumidill and am looking for a way that works to get them to take it. thanks


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't know details like how much fumidill b is in the mix, but the pattys come w/ the fumidill already in them. He orders enuf to make it worth while for Mann Lake to custom make the pattys. You could too.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I agree with the very good point that Keith makes about pollen in the gut not being the same as stored pollen. In the gut forces the bees to brood up. I suppose it kinda like food in the belly is not quite the same as food in the fridge. It's nice to have in the fridge but much nicer in the belly.

From my experience Mark counts of 2,500 000 would alarm me. I'm not sure that feeding patties alone would reduce your counts to 500 000 /bee. That's economic threshold in colder areas. I would feed fumigillin. Did I read right that you are not moving your bees south. Bees can take higher counts in areas with a milder winter. 

Those counts would explain a low honey production,especially if the neighbours got substantially more honey. At those kind of counts the bees life can be shortened by 2 weeks, just a the time when they should be earning you a few $. Now if you through some high mite counts you can get a synergistic effect that really lowers production. Alone those problems the bees can sort of cope with but combined this can be a real killer of hives over winter in colder climates and for sure will impact your production. If they were my hives I would try to get the situation in order as soon as possible.

On the bright side nothing that some time , effort and cash can't fix.

Jean-Marc

Jean-Marc


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

So, is there an effective way to feed pollen sub when/where SHB is a problem - other than spoon feeding it in small enough quantities for them to quickly clean up that is?

I imagine most of us would rather deal with nosema by supplying nutrition rather than medication if it's possible.


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

mix fumigillin with your syrup, they are hungry right now so they will eat it up and digest it. when feeding it doesnt hurt to drench them so they eat 
some instantly.


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