# Have not even started and already discouraged...



## Danpa14 (Jun 12, 2013)

No need to be discouraged in my opinion as a 2 yr inexperienced beekeeper, I love having bees that I have to treat as I work TOWARD treatment free bees. Trying to start off get bees from a source with treatment free bees and then grow from your best queens. I would definitely have at least 3 hives as I bet some will die without treatment. Of course some do even when treated. Jump in, think positive and keep improveing your stock.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

TSWisla said:


> I am starting to become very discouraged. It seems that most people want you to believe that it is impossible to be TF. Is it possible? I admit, I am clueless, what am I in for? Can someone direct me to some information on the subject?


Well, it is probably harder now to keep bees alive than ever. This is regardless of whether you treat or not. 

In my opinion, foundationless is not a cure all, although I believe it certainly helps. IMO, the reverse holds true for treated bees, some will still die.

Don't quit now. Or when your first hive dies. Just keep moving forward. And be thankful for each hive that survives. 

And, IMO, start with VSH or some other resistant bee. This is especially true if you are going TF.

Shane


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## TSWisla (Nov 13, 2014)

Thank you both. I will look into the VSH bees. Do you have a preferred source? The sites that I looked at seem to sell queens only; where do I get the rest of the bees!? Thank you again.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I was preparing to purchase my first hive(s). I planned on doing a foundation free, treatment free setup. I am starting to become very discouraged. It seems that most people want you to believe that it is impossible to be TF. Is it possible? 

Thousands of us are not treating. People who treat lose a lot of bees. People who don't treat lose about the same amount. The differences, though, are that not treating is the only real future for beekeeping and you get clean honey. When everyone quit treating for Tracheal mites the problem went away quite quickly.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

For encouragement see all the thousands of people standing up here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?305116-TF-For-5-Seasons-of-More-Please-Stand-Up

:lookout:

I am a supporter of the idea. But don't expect it to happen by itself. My recommendation is to learn beekeeping first, for two or three years, and then step by step go treatment free. Otherwise you can't distinguish if your beekeeping or varroa killed the bees. If you want all at once you most probably end up with nothing. C'est la vie. 

Bernhard


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

TSWisla said:


> Thank you both. I will look into the VSH bees. Do you have a preferred source? The sites that I looked at seem to sell queens only; where do I get the rest of the bees!? Thank you again.


Frank Wyatt of Eden NC sells VSH nucs. I am sure there are others who are closer to you.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

TSWisla said:


> where do I get the rest of the bees!? Thank you again.


That's a big problem. I hate package bees. I put myself on the swarm list and get bees from swarms and cutouts. But then I already have years of experience in beekeeping. I could probably get you some bees this next year from swarms. A nuc or package is what most get started with and then build from your own bees.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

TSWisla said:


> I am starting to become very discouraged.


Easy to do. But if you want to enter beekeeping, you have to have a certain optimism as you are going to face a lot of frustrating situations, regardless of which approach you take. Always best to find a local beekeeper who will mentor you or at least be a backup should you run into trouble. Otherwise, be determined, accept that bees die, and know that it will probably be a couple years before you will consistently have bees surviving year to year.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good post barry. starting with bees treatments or not is a bit of an experiment with too many variables to control. your location will have its own weather, forage availability, genetic influence from nearby bees, ect. and you will have to learn and adapt as your circumstances dictate. being able to accompany other beekeepers working their hives proved to be extremely helpful as i was getting my start. i decided early on to convert my frustration over mistakes and failures to gratitude for the lessons learned, it wasn't easy but it and i now find myself involved with one of the more satisfying pursuits that i have undertaken.


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

Hi TSW and welcome to the forum here. First off, dont be discouraged. At some point in this, we were where you are. First I'd go the public library and check out every book you can find on beekeeping and spend all your spare time reading and learning about this insect. This site is a great site to learn from also. Youtube is there but there is a lot of repeition and not everything is to be believed or may even apply to where you live and will keep bees. 
Example...I'm in Florida and the methods of over wintering bees up in Snowland do not apply to me. Youtube FATBEEMAN has some interesting videos. Beekeeping is very local as they say. Beekers 100 miles or less away may be experiencing something completely diffrent than myself. First get your basics down and then start experimenting. Check if there is a local bee club you can attend. Those can be a big help and a good source for knowledge, products, and bees. There are your hard std rules and then everything else. Even the hard rules can be broken. Bees are very adaptable and have been around longer than mankind. Good luck, you'll be fine! Stay positive. Most anything worthwhile isnt always easy.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

I would never recommend a beginner to be treatment free from the start. Being TF really needs skills which are only obtained with years of beekeeping. But,you could or even should buy VSH bees or other resistant stock and learn about how they behave. It is all useful once you feel safe(after 5 years?) to stop treating. Doing it this way saves you from a lot of pain.


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

> I am a supporter of the idea. But don't expect it to happen by itself. My recommendation is to learn beekeeping first, for two or three years, and then step by step go treatment free. Otherwise you can't distinguish if your beekeeping or varroa killed the bees. If you want all at once you most probably end up with nothing. C'est la vie.
> 
> Bernhard


The voice of reason. Pay attention grasshopper.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't know the current statistics, but just a few years ago (three or four) according to Bee Culture, 60% of beekeepers were NOT treating. A year ago the losses reported by those treating and those not treating on the Bee Informed survey, were identical. In other words, MOST beekeepers are not treating and having the same results as those treating.

If you surround yourself with life, you surround yourself with death. The two go hand in hand. If you raise animals you will witness both life and death. The way species (and apiaries) survive is when they reproduce as fast or faster than they die.

If you want to get somewhere, it works best to start out headed there. I would start by not treating and continue to not treat. You will not achieve treatment free beekeeping by treating.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

TSWisla said:


> Thank you both. I will look into the VSH bees. Do you have a preferred source? The sites that I looked at seem to sell queens only; where do I get the rest of the bees!? Thank you again.


The queen is what determines the genetics in the hive. She is everybody's mama. You can probably by a mated queen with a package or a nuc. If not you will have to buy a package or a nuc and substitute your TF queen.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Good golly MB that's the worst advice I've ever heard. Last years results of the BIP was 27% fewer losses by treating. Juhani has it right when he says there are so many other things to learn before you jump in and just let varroa have a field day with your bees. Talk about some education understanding varroa and the effects of it. I know I should just let this go, but too many beginners lose their bees for these ideals that may or may not be possible without more experience. The bees bear the blunt of these ideal thoughts. Too many organic and safer options now available then in the past that make losing colonies to varroa a waste.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Brandy said:


> Good golly MB that's the worst advice I've ever heard. Last years results of the BIP was 27% fewer losses by treating. Juhani has it right when he says there are so many other things to learn before you jump in and just let varroa have a field day with your bees. Talk about some education understanding varroa and the effects of it. I know I should just let this go, but too many beginners lose their bees for these ideals that may or may not be possible without more experience. The bees bear the blunt of these ideal thoughts. Too many organic and safer options now available then in the past that make losing colonies to varroa a waste.


+1 Excellent summary


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Juhani Lunden said:


> I would never recommend a beginner to be treatment free from the start. Being TF really needs skills which are only obtained with years of beekeeping. But,you could or even should buy VSH bees or other resistant stock and learn about how they behave. It is all useful once you feel safe(after 5 years?) to stop treating. Doing it this way saves you from a lot of pain.


As I stated before, I just don't understand the logic in this. I began as a beginner treatment free beekeeper, and encourage beginners who want to start that way to stick with it, if they want to be treatment free. Perhaps some learn the "skills" faster than others, or the "skills" of being treatment free are not any harder to learn than the "skills" of a treating beekeeper, but just different "skills"? I do know if you start treating your bees, they lose the "skills" to survive without the treatment. Which to me, would make it more difficult for a beekeeper who starts treating their bees to become treatment free.
TSWisla, No it isn't impossible, and I don't necessarily think people want you to believe it is impossible, I truly think they believe they are doing beekeepers a favor by telling them to do mite counts and treat, or your bees will die. Perhaps bad experiences they had trying to be treatment free, or have never tried due to what they were told about it being impossible to be treatment free. No matter what you decide you are in for a learning process and hives that live and die


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

In my apiaries have had average mortality below 10 % . I 'm in beekeeping for 6 years and have done synthetic treatments so far.
But I'm not happy because this can not be my way , keeping my bees dependents every year two treatments . My bees are been constantly in danger and dependent on me. I want autonomous bees as possible . Also if I crave it for me also I want for my bees . If I think otherwise I'm falling in speciesism .

Currently I am studying the possibility of moving to bees with VSH . I 'm learning from the experience of beekeepers in USA . Next to this solution only after much deliberation. Here 's we say precautions and chicken broths never hurt anyone. Later you can always do the conversion to VSH and probably with better genetic material than what we have at our disposal today.


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

Barry said:


> That's a big problem. I hate package bees. I put myself on the swarm list and get bees from swarms and cutouts. But then I already have years of experience in beekeeping. I could probably get you some bees this next year from swarms. A nuc or package is what most get started with and then build from your own bees.


This is good advice. Remove a couple of hives or swarms for free by posting on Craigslist. All of my hives been obtained this way. You get to help someone out and get local bees.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

From my own personal experience, it IS possible to be a new beekeeper and treatment free. I don't know that the local bees I bought were necessarily VHS, but they made it through last winter just fine. I now have 5 colonies that I am overwintering. I am 100% top bar hives and was very disappointed in my local clubs reactions to both the top bar hive and being treatment free, so I just had to "go it alone". I read extensively any bee book that I could get my hands on. I'd also recommend you read Michael Bush's website (I bought his book) http://bushfarms.com/bees.htm. There are certainly other books out there for raising bees treatment free. I would say you just need to adjust your expectations for the first and second year. I didn't take any honey this year or last year; and I did utilize a brood break in mid summer to cut down on the varroa, but that also affected the number of bees available to forage for the fall flow. I think a backyard beekeeper can definitely be treatment free, as long as their sole purpose in keeping the bees is not for the honey production.


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

TSWisl, I’ll share my story of how I started out. I installed my first packages on April 1 this year but I started learning the previous July. I began by reading Beekeeping For Dummies (it’s a great starting point). I’ve since read at least 25 other books. Send me a private message if you want the list. 

I then watched hours of YouTube videos. How to install packages, hive inspections, etc. Beware that some people on YouTube give wrong info. There are helpful webinars on YouTube too from BrushyMounatin

Google “ohio state beekeeping class” – there’s some good videos there

I subscribed to the monthly magazines Bee Culture and AMJ. Bee Culture if my favorite of the two. It tends to lean more toward the backyard hobbyist. 

I joined my county’s beekeeping association. 

There are hundreds of helpful websites on bees. 

My favorite is http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

Michael also has some great long talks on YouTube where he’ll elaborate more on natural cell, treatment free, etc.

I took a 3 day bee class with my local club.

If you want to be treatment free, it’s better to start with treatment free bees. I ordered mine from Wolf Creek Apiaries about an hour from me. Their bees are treatment free, born on 4.9 small cell. I’ve never taken a ruler to my comb so I’ll take their word. But the bees are great.

Some folks will tell you that it’s easier for a newbie to start out treating, then switch to TF once you’ve become comfortable but to me that’s terrible advice. You would have already contaminated your comb (and bees!) with harmful chemicals. Remember, bees wax absorbs chemicals. “Honeycomb is like the liver of the hive”.

Some folks might discourage you from starting with foundation-less frames, but if you do start this way, you’ll not have to break bad habits like holding frames sideway. This is fine with wired foundation but a bad idea with foundation-less. Gravity could pull the comb off the frame unless you hold it perpendicular to the ground. Especially new heavy comb. I have not lost a comb yet!

I even researched the best kind of paint to use on the hives.

I started out with 2 Langstroths and 1 homemade Top Bar Hive. I like them both but having an observation window in the TBH has allowed me to film bees being born, the queen laying, monitoring the comb for straightness, does the sugar syrup need replacing, waggle dances, etc. 

My TBH swarmed during the summer, I found it in a tree and now I have 4 hives.

Find a mentor if you can. I couldn’t  And read BeeSource. That’s been the single most helpful tool for me.

It may seem like a lot to take in with all the different kinds of equipment, different pests and diseases but just dive in man. Plus, as you've no doubt discovered, if you ask 10 beeks a question, you'll get 10 different answers. Good luck!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you want to end up in Montana you don't get there by walking towards Texas... If you want to keep bees without treatments the way you get there is by keeping bees without treatments. How are you going to learn more about how to keep bees without treatments by treating? Or about how to keep bees in general when you are obsessed with disrupting and poisoning the very ecology you need to protect in order to succeed without treatments?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

I care for "thousands" of beekeeping beginners here in Germany. A lot of them do read Michael Bush and go straight ahead into the treatment free adventure. Because they know better, you know. Going to Montana or so. I do know not one who suceeded, but instead lost all their hives. Thank you in the name of the unnamed "thousands" of beginners. 

I do know tf beekeepers here, and they are all experienced. There is no harm converting step by step. You don't teach children swimming by drowning them. This world isn't ideal, so don't think you can push ideals into real life. Take your time and go easy.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

People loose their beloved bees. People loose real money. For nothing. Why not requeening the hives that do not cope with mites? Why do the bees have to die? Unnecessary that is.

I have to repair the consequences of what is preached here. And I am sick of it. Sick of seeing dead hives, disheartened new beekeepers and sick of people "knowing" better (they just started, but read stuff on the internet). 

And nobody takes responsibility for it. Stop it, there is no reason to be so extreme and fanatic about it.

Everybody who reads this: Take your time, proceed slowly.


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## TSWisla (Nov 13, 2014)

Wow, thank you for all of the responses, they give me a lot to think about. I just want to clarify, I am not discouraged by setbacks or learning or losing bees. What is discouraging me is that I read more often than not that it is impossible to keep a treatment free hive. I want to get into this because I want to keep bees naturally. If that is not something that I can achieve, then I don't think that I will take this up. I have no problem dealing with adversity if there is a chance that I can succeed. Thank you again.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> How are you going to learn more about how to keep bees without treatments by treating?


Do you run before you walked? 
Did you ski the black diamond before the bunny slope?
Perhaps there are some that did, but for us mere mortals the bunny slope may prevent some casualties.

There are fundamental steps to learning. Its not the same for everyone. I started without beesource (mostly) and without a local club. It took me several years before I even knew what I was looking for. Some here seem to express confidence that that all you need to do is puts bees in a box and you're done - just let nature take care of them. You may get lucky and maybe not, much (if not everything) has to do with your INITIAL STOCK. I will guarantee you that if you started out with nonresistant package bees put them in a box they would be dead within 2 to 3 years - there's no doubt in my mind. I don't care what foundation, hive type, etc - they would be dead. 

There are a lots of basic things to know in beekeeping. Some may find that taking small steps in mastering the basics is the best approach. I've mentored many beekeepers over the years and its amazing to observe the diversity in their skills relative to the years beekeeping. I know some that have 3+ years experience and I would not let them open one of my hives out of fear of the damage that would be done. Then there are others that are fairly competent by their second year. Many of these 1st and 2nd year beekeepers don't even know what a varroa mite looks like, and wonder why their bees have shriveled wings and stunted abdomens. 

Again, lots to learn. Besides, with all the effective soft treatment options I see zero harm in getting the basics in hand before continuing the quest to become TF.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Personally, I think the right path to take depends on the individual. I did treatment beekeeping first and then went TF. If I had it to do over, I probably would have started TF. I see wisdom in both arguments and don't see the need to put the other side down. One can start with treatments if needed and not have to contaminate the wax unlike 20 years ago with what was available. The biggest hurdle you have to deal with is in our mind/will. Once you set a goal, either route will get you there.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I have to repair the consequences of what is preached here.
> 
> Everybody who reads this: Take your time, proceed slowly.


Wow Bernhard, great reply. I was writing my note at the time you posted this. Seems like we have the same message.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

That is a practical way to get where you want to:
http://www.immenfreunde.de/SBT.pdf


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I have to repair the consequences of what is preached here. And I am sick of it. Sick of seeing dead hives, disheartened new beekeepers and sick of people "knowing" better (they just started, but read stuff on the internet).


Awww shucks, you got it hard, Bernhardt!


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I also recommend learning to keep bees, first. Then trying to go TF. There are a whole range of treatment options for varroa mites (the most troubling pest at the moment). 

It's an appealing ideal to imagine your charming little bugs in a pure, safe world. That is not necessarily the reality you will have to deal with, however. 

I think far too many people start out with a fantasy of having treatment-free, foundation-less, all-natural, bees and thus set themselves up for great discouragement when they discover how hard that is to maintain in many areas. 

I am not suggesting, in any way, that the existence of legitimately TF bees is a fantasy. It's certainly not, as there are reputable, established beekeepers doing exactly that. 

But I think what _is_ a fantasy is the notion that just anyone can order up some TF bees, plunk the little bugs in a box and then rainbows and harmonies will ensue. And that the intention, all by itself, will somehow protect their bees from all the terrible issues that _treating_ beekeepers must deal with every day.

I figure skate. I can watch the experts do triple and quad jumps, but that doesn't mean that I, in my 60s, can do them. My appreciation for what others can do, does not dimish or negate my satisfaction with my own skating skills and progress. It's the same with beekeeping, I think.

You know, there is nothing despicable about having well-cared for, managed bees living in Langstroph boxes, on plastic frames (they make lovely comb on Piercos, even though I think the foundationless comb is aesthetically more pleasing), fed sugar when needed, faithfully monitored for pests and diseases and, if necessary, treated for problems that arise. Although my bees are more or less my pets, I still think of them as livestock to which I owe the duty of the best stewardship I can muster. And in my area, failure to treat for varroa mites results in the miserable death of colonies. I have a few neighbors attempting to disprove this fact. They must buy new bees every year to replace their losses. 

Enj.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I tried to be treatment (Chemical) free my first year. I did the drone trapping thing and screened bottom boards. I lost both hives.

I started over this year with 3 hives. 1 hive had a month-long queenless (and therefore broodless) period. When I checked mite levels with a 24 hr. stickyboard. The mite level in that hive was acceptable. The other hives had high mite levels and were treated. 

Survival is one reason too treat. Temperament is important too. The mite infested hives were mean. Now they are sweet. 

I did not really treat for mites by the way. I used an oxalic acid vaporizer to bleach my frames about 3 times. It didn't work on the frames, but the mites died.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What is discouraging me is that I read more often than not that it is impossible to keep a treatment free hive. 

Yes, it is a belief held by a large number of people... one that comes up a lot around here despite thousands of us doing it. I heard it a lot when I first lost bees to Varroa and finding someone who said otherwise took some work.

An illustrative true story:
My dad is a very meticulous and intelligent man. He decided one day that he needed to rebuild his diesel Rabbet’s engine. So he carefully marked every gear and every tooth and cog to make sure when he reassembled it everything would be in exactly the same position. When he was done, the engine started but ran very poorly. He asked some mechanic friends what might be wrong and they told him he should get the timing set. So he made an appointment to get it set at the local garage. He drove it to the garage on the appointed day and went in to leave the keys. When he told the garage attendant that he was dropping off the car the attendant said that he would send a tow truck to get it. My dad told him there was no need since it was parked out front. The attendant carefully explained to my dad that it was impossible to start a diesel engine after you rebuild it until you set the timing. My father assured him that he had carefully marked very cog and gear and had carefully lined them all back up and it did run, just not very well and it was indeed parked out front. The attendant again explained how this was not possible and said he would send the tow truck and started trying to get the address from my dad so he could send the truck. My dad politely asked the attendant if he could follow him for a minute. He led the man outside and pointed at the Rabbet and said “could you please set the timing on that car?”

Sometimes I feel like my dad did that day except none of them want to follow me out so I can point to the bees…

"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."-George Bernard Shaw


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

That is rabbits to bees analogy!. Really a good example though, that advice may be completely wrong or not applicable to your circumstance. 

I don't think it matters a great deal whether a person starts with the idea of treating or being treatment free. In some areas you will get the answer very quickly that treatment free is going to be a hard go. If there are a lot of neighboring bees around with mites that carry a high viral load this seems to be a likely result. That is the scenario where my son keeps about 30 hives in eastern ontario.

Where I have bees I am very isolated from other beekeepers and there are apparently no feral bees. I have a very easy time controlling mites but a general feeling is that it takes 3 to 5 years to gauge whether or not mite and virus pressure is going to stable at a level your bees can tolerate. In other words local conditions are very, very, important to beekeeping.

I think it is only scare tactics to advise that you cannot change course; many people are also doing both treatment and treatment free simultaneously. Try different approaches and see what feels comfortable.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

JustinH - " If you want to be treatment free, it’s better to start with treatment free bees. I ordered mine from Wolf Creek Apiaries about an hour from me. Their bees are treatment free",

Just thought I'd check when you said you got treatment free bees from Wolf Creek Apiaries. Their website says natural treatments which includes Thyme oil. I believe that's the ingredient in some of the other commercial varroa treatments available.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>That is rabbits to bees analogy!. Really a good example though, that advice may be completely wrong or not applicable to your circumstance. 

The point is people can't grasp what they believe to be impossible. Sometimes it seems they can't even hear what you are saying because it falls outside of their model of the world. Despite all the people who are keeping bees without treatments people continue to believe it's impossible.

>I think it is only scare tactics to advise that you cannot change course; many people are also doing both treatment and treatment free simultaneously. Try different approaches and see what feels comfortable.

Of course you can change course. You can walk half way to Texas before you turn around and go to Montana. It doesn't mean you can't go to Montana. But the ecology of a bee colony is much more complex than we can even grasp and disrupting it may not be so easy to undo. What will you do with equipment that is contaminated with Cumophos? How do you get the bees off of that large cell contaminated comb after you start out on large cell and treat? It's much easier to install the package on small cell to start with than to change over later. You get one free stage of regression right there. There is a lot of rework to get from a traditional large cell treated system to clean equipment and clean wax and natural or small cell size. There is no rework if you start out that way.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Anyway you go I personally believe you should view your first year or two as your practice run. Your bees may survive (that is the goal) but may not. The point is to learn, beekeeping is a science, skill and art that must be practiced to improve on.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Try this. Get your bees from a treatment free source (Wolf Creek isn't one). Then run your hive treatment free but learn how to monitor for mites.

If your monitoring shows mites are not a problem for you, don't treat. If your monitoring shows your bees are headed to be among those hives that don't make it, treat them.

The reason a lot of hives are lost is because there is no monitoring and the owner just doesn't know. Till the bees are dead or so close there's no saving them.

A tip - there are only three things you need to get right to keep your hive alive. The bees should be properly housed, properly fed, and kept healthy. That's it.


Should add, about the seeming obsession with mites. There is a reason, mites are the number one bee killer, some people are in denial over that fact. Most of the treatment free gurus lose massive amounts of hives. Slightly different situation if you only have one hive, a loss of one is 100%. But don't let that stop you attempting treatment free beekeeping, but be sensible. Know what is going on in your hive so if the worst does happen you can act before the hive dies.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Most of the treatment free gurus lose massive amounts of hives. 

And you base this statement on what?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Read about and understand the enemy. It is a complex relationship between bees and mites...often oversimplified. Choose a method to objectively measure the level of varroa infestation. Don't allow yourself to be blind to the problem. Choose your course and stick with it. Accept, regardless of your path, that you will lose bees and that is the price of education. Don't be discouraged.
Good luck.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Exactly, know your enemy:


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Everyone forgets how location affects beekeepers. Get your bees, learn the basics, and see what happens with YOUR bees. If they make it TF then go for it, if not, well you can bring in all the genetics you want or research and try everything you can to manipulate mite levels without treating and at some point you might have to throw the towel in or just keep on looking for the bees that can live TF in your area, and you might never find them. Do I treat, you bet I do. Do I want to treat, not really, but I'm not going to walk blindly down the path listening to any one person's drivel watching my bees die in the process when I don't have too. Some people can probably start off TF, some can work towards it, some will never find it feasible and everyone needs to recognize this, especially the so called 'experts' and 'gurus'. For me, it's something I hope to attain one day, being treatment free, but in my neck of the woods, it's a very big challenge when you think of the dynamics of keeping bees here.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Another option: http://www.delta-business.com/CalgaryBeekeepers/Bee-Club-Library-2/Managing-Varroa-Chemical-Free.pdf


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Nice link Bernhardt, and one which should be quite educational for new beekeepers out there wishing to be treatment free. The article clearly explains the results of not treating together with a realistic strategy, albeit a fairly fairly labor intensive one, for becoming treatment free. Know the tribulations that may be ahead of you on your "walk to Montana", understand your enemy and set up a strategy to fight back.


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## AL from Georgia (Jul 14, 2014)

Get the bees and give it a try. Do plenty of research and don't get discouraged, good luck!


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

Brandy said:


> JustinH - " If you want to be treatment free, it’s better to start with treatment free bees. I ordered mine from Wolf Creek Apiaries about an hour from me. Their bees are treatment free",
> 
> Just thought I'd check when you said you got treatment free bees from Wolf Creek Apiaries. Their website says natural treatments which includes Thyme oil. I believe that's the ingredient in some of the other commercial varroa treatments available.


Their website says this, "We have never used toxic chemicals on our bees. For the last seven years we have used natural oils to strengthen the bees immune system. About that time we switched to the 4.9mm bee and other organic practices." 

I suppose I took that to mean treatment free. In any case, I've started down the TF path and I'm going to see where it leads me. The President of my local club has kept bees since the 80's and has around 100 hives. He doesn't treat his bees and that was good enough for me. He said Varroa isn't the problem in our area, but SHB are. And for what it's worth, I've never seen a mite on my bees (and I look closely during inspections, through my observation window, watching HD video that I film, etc.) but I do have SHB's. I'm not saying I don't have mites. Just never seen one.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

JustinH said:


> The President of my local club has kept bees since the 80's and has around 100 hives. He doesn't treat his bees and that was good enough for me.


is he using wolf creek bees and natural cell as well?


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> is he using wolf creek bees and natural cell as well?


No to both. He captures swarms if I recall.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

>Most of the treatment free gurus lose massive amounts of hives.<



Michael Bush said:


> And you base this statement on what?


Among other things, Math.

I read what people say. When I see a TF guru talking about the huge number of splits he is making, his queen breeding, and nuc production, and his "expansion model" beekeeping, and him dispensing expert advice to the masses on these subjects, I do the math.
If I happen to know that despite years of this massive increase and his "success" at queen breeding, etc, he actually has fewer hives than he did 10 years ago, I have to wonder why. Where did they go?

The answer lies in math. 

The other thing I base my statement on, is what I have been told by people who have, shall we say, "peeked over the fence". I have heard reports of stacks of deadouts.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

To the original poster. If anyone suggests a simple solution to varroa, be it OAV to small cell......give them a wide berth. Mites aren't a simple problem....there aren't, in my opinion, any simple solutions.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Most of the treatment free gurus 

Most of the treatment free "gurus" I know do NOT have massive losses. And I think I know most of them...


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## MelissaWilkie (Nov 15, 2014)

I haven't been keeping bees that long, 5 years or so. And I feel like the first few years were really frustrating. Everything died, we kept replacing hives. We are now about 75% foundationless and will let the bees build their own foundations from now on. 
I just don't see how could it be worse than the first couple of years. Right now 3 of my 4 hives are from a feral hive taken from an old barn, that was actually 3 hives!

I would ditto what most said regarding have faith and just get started. Find a club and a mentor if you can. Go out and help capture swarms. 

But I think I learned the most about the beauty and simplicity of keeping bees when I listened to Michael Bush talk at the Washington State Bee Keepers Association annual conference a couple years ago. If I could swing it, I'd go stay at his place and help with his bees! 

:scratch: Most of all have fun. Bees are so freaking cool!


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## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

If you live in Lake County join the Lake County Beekeepers Association. I am certain they will be a wealth of information for you since you are just starting.


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

Kraków says hallo to TS Wisła 

and to the point:
I may know nothing about the bees since I do beekeeping only for 2 years. This year I went TF. And Yes: i lost almost all my bees, and the winter just started (I lost 22 out of 23 colonies - the last one probably will die till spring...).
But in my opinion the problem TSWisla raised is quite different. I read all these opinions and I don't see how beginner's TF bees die different than professional's?? 
Explain to me this: If You decide to go TF what is the difference if You go TF as a beginner or not? Why to learn something for 4 - 5 years and then unlearn this? 
If you have to learn the methods - just learn them while doing TF beekeeping. Search for surviving bees while learning. 
If, as a beginner, you kill the bees while learning, just by your mistakes - what is the difference if you do TF or not-TF? 
of course you may lose some symptoms of colony collapse if you don't know beekeeping - but if you decide not to treat anyway - what is the difference? 

I don't understand this. Going TF is just a choice you make - and in my opinion it doesn't matter if you are beginner or not... the bees die and survive the same. And you just learn and learn while standing by your choices. 
I stand by Mr Bush's opinion. You can do your beekeeping "first steps" while doing TF.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

It does matter. As a beginner you make one hundred mistakes that lead to the misery of the hive. As a beginner you simply can't distinguish between your own fails or errors and the effects of varroa.


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

Of course you make hundred mistakes. But does it matter if they lead to misery of treated or non-treated hives? 
And of course you cannot distinguish if it fails from varroa or your mistakes. But this year in Poland is really bad for beekeepers and the bees - already died about 50% of bees - treated and non-treated (and the winter hasn't finished...). I think in Germany may be simillar - at least in Czech Republic and Slovakia it is. Will you distinguish if they died of resistant varroa mites or mistakes in treatments? and maybe some other pathogens? 

I think one should learn the kind of beekeeping he/she wants to do right from the start, not one kind, and then unlearn it and learn another kind. That is my opinion. I may be wrong but I think like that.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

BeesFromPoland said:


> But this year in Poland is really bad for beekeepers and the bees - already died about 50% of bees - treated and non-treated (and the winter hasn't finished...).


BFP This rate of mortality is not normal in Poland , is it?
In your opinion what are factors behind this mortality rate? Very hard winter?... another reason?


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

BeesFromPoland said:


> Of course you make hundred mistakes. I think one should learn the kind of beekeeping he/she wants to do right from the start, not one kind, and then unlearn it and learn another kind. That is my opinion. I may be wrong but I think like that.


Plus one :thumbsup: I think I like that


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Mr. Bush posted a fine analogy:

An illustrative true story:
My dad is a very meticulous and intelligent man. He decided one day that he needed to rebuild his diesel Rabbet’s engine. So he carefully marked every gear and every tooth and cog to make sure when he reassembled it everything would be in exactly the same position. When he was done, the engine started but ran very poorly. He asked some mechanic friends what might be wrong and they told him he should get the timing set. So he made an appointment to get it set at the local garage. He drove it to the garage on the appointed day and went in to leave the keys. When he told the garage attendant that he was dropping off the car the attendant said that he would send a tow truck to get it. My dad told him there was no need since it was parked out front. The attendant carefully explained to my dad that it was impossible to start a diesel engine after you rebuild it until you set the timing. My father assured him that he had carefully marked very cog and gear and had carefully lined them all back up and it did run, just not very well and it was indeed parked out front. The attendant again explained how this was not possible and said he would send the tow truck and started trying to get the address from my dad so he could send the truck. My dad politely asked the attendant if he could follow him for a minute. He led the man outside and pointed at the Rabbet and said “could you please set the timing on that car?”

I currently drive a VW Vanagon with a rabbit diesel engine(320K). I have rebuilt numerous VW diesels, and find this story quite enlightening. 

The devil is in the details. What was not conveyed in the story is that although the timing belt was properly reinstalled, the injection pump was not, and therefore the diesel fuel may not have been injected at the right time, potentially damaging the engine.. The prudent thing to do would have been to buy the right tool, or have the vehicle towed to the right tool, and avoid engine damage. 

The beekeeping analogy? Of course you may start out TF, but it may be prudent to monitor mites and use chemical free treatments until you get the "RIGHT TOOLS", which are experience working with bees and mites. 

Crazy Roland


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> BFP This rate of mortality is not normal in Poland , is it?
> In your opinion what are factors behind this mortality rate? Very hard winter?... another reason?


This is not the topic, but since the question came up.

Nobody knows for sure. 
Last year we had very short and mild winter - like "British". Snow was about 2 weeks, + temperatures (Celsius). Bees wintered perfectly, but my opinion is that so did all the pests. 
This year we had very, very small honey crops - 2 - 5 kg was normal per hive. Of course you know that beekeeping is local - so it was different in different regions (some had peak crops). It was raining all summer, and sometimes bees were hungry. You had to feed some of them sugar all year just to keep them alive. 
My opinion is that bees were weak because of hunger and unnatural food and pests were at maximum (not only varroa). 

My bees - most were this years nucs, 4 - 5 months old (mostly beautiful colonies that built up well till autumn) - started to die off from end of August and kept dying a couple every two weeks up until now. And this is similar for the whole country. Two of my friends (they treat bees for varroa, one of them keeps bees for 30 years so he is experienced beekeeper) lost for about 30 hives out of 40. 
The winter in Poland has just started (it is late - we usually have winter from november) so it is not hard winter. 

My opinion is that this mortality rate is mainly because of nosema cearea, but some say that it was varroa. Many disagree about the varroa theory because bees die even when treated (with different methods). Some of my bees (I would say half of all my hives) had no symptoms of varroa mites.


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

Roland said:


> The devil is in the details. What was not conveyed in the story is that although the timing belt was properly reinstalled, the injection pump was not, and therefore the diesel fuel may not have been injected at the right time, potentially damaging the engine.. The prudent thing to do would have been to buy the right tool, or have the vehicle towed to the right tool, and avoid engine damage.
> 
> The beekeeping analogy? Of course you may start out TF, but it may be prudent to monitor mites and use chemical free treatments until you get the "RIGHT TOOLS", which are experience working with bees and mites.
> 
> Crazy Roland


And You say that TF in this analogy is the "damage" in beekeeping? ;-)

You all probably read Mr Charles Martin Simon's articles in "Point of View"? (By the way he also writes about himself "crazy" ;-) ). You may agree with him or disagree (that are exactly the choices you have to make in your beekeeping methods), but that is the kind beekeeping I'd like to have in my apiary. If I decide to "let the bees live or die" I don't need any means to monitor mites. This is not of my interest if they are there or not, and if they are in what numbers. Bees will cope with them or they will die - that is the ways of nature. If you choose to be "organic beekeeper" you have to make this choice and live with it. Of course you have to learn the methods to keep bees alive with no treatments (you all know there are some things you can do to give them better chance), you don't just buy bees to let them die - but it's better to learn them just from the start. One day I'll find "my" bee that will survive. Up until then I'll learn just as much about bees I can - and I will learn it doing TF beekeeping. 
I will write it again: I'll make hundreds, maybe thousands mistakes. Probably kill many bees (I will regret it very much). But this is learning. As a beginner I would probably kill them anyway while doing beekeeping with treatments.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

I regret what happened to your nucs. Here in Portugal we also had an unusually cool summer and with very low yields in some places. 

Then back to the topic or not. Here in Portugal this dissent came not yet. I think here many little or none risk TF strategy. Damage to beehives in the early years of the entry of varroa in which all were TF were huge and these lessons have not been forgotten. My position on this issue is pragmatic: each does what it means and in accordance with their beliefs. However ... if next to my hives properly treated and with varroa levels controlled, I have a mate who is doing TF, which allows the varroa proliferate in their hives, is not only to put their hives at risk but also mine. 
I'll start my bees resistant to varroa program, but in a isolated apiary to give me more guarantees to control the fertilization of the queens and while this experience has virtually zero impact on neighboring apiaries, as regards the varroa.

I do not exactly know the conditions under which Dr. Kefuss carried forward his program " bond- test", but I'm almost certain that was not at 500m or 1000m distance from apiaries with a conventional management. And he has not done it because it was able to foresee the damage that would cause the neighboring apiaries and because as expert he also knew that this program only made sense in a isolated place because of the outdoor mating and issues of hybridisation . 

I can't yet realized what is the point of starting a TF program surrounded by a bad strain of drones (see drones not resistant to varroa). Maybe you can enlighten me.


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

Ha, that's a big question... I don't know the answer to this one. Perhaps one of the "organic gurus" could answer them... ??

I don't know how bees would react to "varroa re-infestation", and drones that are not resistant. I know I want to try this kind of beekeeping because I believe that's the only future for it. perhaps somebody has to start for others to follow? 

Mr Simon wrote:
"Principle #5: Beekeeping is not about honey.

Principle #6: It’s not about money.

Principle #7: It’s about survival.

Well, actually, it’s not about survival, since nobody survives. It’s about the quality of life while you’re alive. Do your best to make the bees’ life the best it can be and it will be the best it can be for you. Stop thinking “maximum production”. Substantially less than most is way better than nothing at all. Learn how to leave the bees alone. Benign neglect is the way.(...)"

I believe that. Maybe it's idealistic. And maybe organic beekeeping is for believers?

I THINK you can do TF beekeeping even if there are some apiaries in the neighborhood. Of course your loses will be substantially bigger, but (again) I THINK it is possible. That's my opinion. 

considering the 'risk' for other apiaries - what is the difference if I don't treat, and if I treat in different time than neighbor? If he treats in August, and I treat in late September? Bees exchange the mites anyway... Varroa mites would die with my bees and the risk ends that moment. and if somebody else treats, his mites are the risk all the time - and the risk is the bigger the more "selected" mites he has. 
As for the drones - I believe genetics is not the only key. It's important - but still, some more colonies will die, but the rest should thrive...

In Poland this arguments are given all the time. Nobody believes TF beekeeping is possible in our conditions. Everybody writes that in US the apiaries are in bigger distances from each other and because of that it is possible to select bee for resistance to varroa...

Perhaps some TF beekeepers would write here how far are other apiaries from theirs? That's interesting for me too. I would share that info with polish beekeepers - that would be argument for or against their opinions...


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I care for "thousands" of beekeeping beginners here in Germany.


Personally, I don't believe this statement. Nor its follow-up.

If you want to be treatment free (and its an excellent notion) get self-sufficient bees to start with, and do your best to keep them away from treatment-dependent drones.

It isn't complicated. I was taught beekeeping with a short conversation with Fred, an ancient countryman, along the following lines:

You'll need these (goes out back and finds old hive parts, and old veil), get some wax foundation from x up the road - he'll show you what to do with it - and call the police to get on the swarm list. When you get a swarm, drop them gently into this (hands me an old straw skep), and turn it upside down on a piece of ply with a pencil underneath (a bit more explaining).

Put them in the hive (run in on a white sloping sheet in the evening) and _leave them alone_.

While you're leaving them alone find out what to do next. You'll have plenty of time.

The world is full of people who want to sell you things, and are happy to make you believe you need then. Mostly you don't. 

Nowadays the world is full of people who believe you have to fiddle with your bees every 5 minutes, that they are pets, that they have to be taken care of. They read each other's books, and chat to each other on forums, and write more books. If you're going tf those are not the sort of people whose advice you want, and they don't have the sort of bees you want.

One good book will last a long time. I'd go for Honey Farming by R.O.B. Manley. At least, read that carefully, and several times first, then read something more directed to beginners with the critical eye that will have given you. 

You need self-sufficient bees. Best is probably a mix of bought vhs (from a breeder with a sound reputation) and feral stock. And you need to keep them self-sufficient by low level breeding, and that includes doing your best to exclude treatment-dependent drones. (Or by buying in new queens on an ongoing basis.)

Depending of your level of knowledge of (genetic) husbandry, this might sound complicated. If so, my best advice is to attack that sense of complication, find out why beekeeping nowadays isn't as simple as it was when I was taught, and how you will overcome the difficulties. 

And get to grips with what is the beating heart of traditional husbandry - continuous, careful, low-level breeding.

I'd also learn woodwork if you don't already make your own hives. Its much easier to expand when it doesn't cost anything but time and a bit of glue. And expanding will be a good idea - you need more colonies than you want to cover losses. 

Focus first on encouraging your new colonies to build comb. That'll be needed for expansion, and will give you a good clear goal for a year or two. You'll be directing energy into building comb and bees, not honey, so don't expect much of the sweet stuff at this time. 

On the whole; put them in a box and leave them alone. Use a division board to encourage straight comb building if you are going for free-cell - but make that the limit of your interference.

Have the courage to ignore the well-meant advice that will be constantly handed to you in regards to low-interference and tf beekeeping. And the scare stories.

Good luck with your project,

Mike (UK)


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

BeesFromPoland said:


> I don't know how bees would react to "varroa re-infestation"


The answer to your question can get in this excerpt . I strongly advise you to read all this in the review. It has very enlightening aspects about varroa and its life cycle , and also on the characteristics of bees resistant to varroa.
"In regions with a high density of honey bee colonies the population dynamics are influenced by a permanent exchange of mites when foragers or drones enter foreign colonies or by robbing (Goodwin et al., 2006; Greatti et al., 1992). Through this so called ‘‘reinfestation”, some colonies will loose mites, and others will receive mites. It is interesting to note that the robbing bees will ‘‘receive” the mites from the victim colonies, which often are already weakened through a high Varroa infestation, and that the effective ‘‘robbing distance” is more than 1 km (Renz and Rosenkranz, 2001). This behavior means that during periods with low nectar flow and, therefore, high robbing activities, strong colonies may significantly increase their mite population." in *Biology and control of Varroa destructor, by Peter Rosenkranz , Pia Aumeier, Bettina Ziegelmann, Journal of Invertebrate Pathology 103 (2010)*.




> It’s about the quality of life while you’re alive. Do your best to make the bees’ life the best it can be and it will be the best it can be for you. Stop thinking “maximum production”. Substantially less than most is way better than nothing at all. Learn how to leave the bees alone. Benign neglect is the way.(...)"


My quality of life depends on the health of my bees and how good is the harvest that they give me. I have not big space to be idealistic in the field. I think you will understand that for some beekeepers, who are professionals, the idealism had very narrow limits.



> Varroa mites would die with my bees and the risk ends that moment.


The problem is that the TF colonies are not in an island. The varroa of them does not die with them. The varroa is now in my hives. Not only are my beliefs and my opinions that make me say it. Are the data provided by the researchers (see above again).

I am happy to continue this conversation with you, but not in arguments put forward in your opinions and beliefs. These aspects I do not argue.
All the best to you and your beekeeping, and that 2015 will be better for the Polish beekeeping.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

MelissaWilkie said:


> Right now 3 of my 4 hives are from a feral hive taken from an old barn, that was actually 3 hives!


What's really useful is an ability to winnow the good advice, the really sound points, from the chaff.

Melissa's statement contains, in my view, just about the most important and useful fact you need. There's a little diamond quietly resting there.

If I was starting out I hope I'd have the sense to print it off big and put someplace where I'd see it every day. 

The quality of the incoming genetics is what matters most. Maintaining that quality is your prime objective.

Melissa's bees may turn out to be useless. But there is a much greater chance that they won't be than if she'd bought them from a treating beekeeper.

The art of husbandry is successfully working the odds.

Treating all but destroys your ability to do that.

Its that simple.

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

BeesFromPoland said:


> Of course you make hundred mistakes.


Could someone list these 100 mistakes for us?

I can only think of a few. 

Of course once you decide to interefere in something best left alone there are an infinite number of mistakes you can make. 

Mike (UK)


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

Eduardo, i know every word you said and quoted. It's nothing new for me. 
That is exactly I think "my bees" would not do great harm to "your bees" by my "neglect". - and at least not greater harm than the other way round. because the mites are exchanged all the time you just can't say that it's my fault your bees have mites despite your treatments. There are other apiaries all around, and as you said they mix their mites all the year round. 
But if my bees die in winter, "my mites" are not in your hive but are eliminated. And perhaps your mites in spring are more resistant? Mine are gone.. Mites are in EVERY hive, you know that. Before treating, and after treating. 
Or perhaps you want to give regulations that everybody must treat at the same day? ... this might help, but is it possible?

How many mites can your bees bring by robbing? 100? 1000? 5000? If about 100 or maybe even 200 than I think you can sleep safe, because they shouldn't kill your hive... that i ment by the phrase you quoted, that i don't know how will they react. And whatever you will say I'm sure you don't know the exact answer to this, either. Some hives will cope with reinfestation, and some will die.

When you read some works of Mr Bush, Mrs Lusby, Mr Webster and others you see that after some period of time your hives are not the problem to others because those that couldn't cope with much number of varroa are already dead... And others have substantially less mites than others.

I used words like "think", "believe" or "opinion" because this are my interpretations of the facts we both know/read/experience. We may disagree in the interpretations. Are You scientist that does research all the time or you just observe bees like I do, and read books, articles and forums? You may have better experience than I do, but I draw my conclusions of all I know and observe - just like You do.


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

mike bispham said:


> Could someone list these 100 mistakes for us?
> 
> I can only think of a few.
> 
> ...


I made a few, some minor, some serious. but 100 is just "licentia poetica" ;-)


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

BeesFromPoland said:


> Eduardo, i know every word you said and quoted. It's nothing new for me.


My experience tells me that robbing situations usually occur in weak hives. If the hive is weak or weakening because is struggling with a huge load of varroa, gains in varroa to the hive that is stealing are well documented. Obviously for me drift of drones and bees, as the exchange of varroa concerns, is a zero-sum (the winning is equal to losing) in hives with similar loads of varroa. The problem arises when the 1000m or less away is an apiary with a varroa level much higher than the level that I have in mine, boosted by the fact that these colonies were to weaken and become a target of mine.

On the question of resistance. I deal with Apivar. For every cientific study you introduce me about the resistance of mites to Apivar, I show you another to say otherwise, and perhaps more recent and more local. You want to play this game with me?

As to whether your dead hives are not another vector of varroa: the issue is your hives, now dead, "offered " to my before he died. I have already given you an excerpt from a scientific paper. You tell me it's all a matter of interpretation. Maybe after all is the sun rotating around the earth. It's all a matter of interpretation, it is not so. I beg you to introduce me an article with the same technical quality to say the opposite for me to " interpret " as well. I believe that we are not here in this thread in the field of hermeneutics, but if you may want to go there, ok with me. Show me your scientific papers.

Precisely because I'm not a researcher and because I know that for bees much escapes me , or because it is the microbiological level , or because they are quantities of numbers impossible to quantify for me, or... I read literature and articles about bees. And a good article ends always saying what are their conclusions in a clear way, but always putting more questions to be answered by further studies . It's a brilliant way of working , but you reduces it a matter of hermeneutics. As well as some take concrete fruits of research , and are not to be discussed until eternity hermeneutical issues.

Show me, please, scientific documents that you know, and support your points of view on the viability/sustainability of having TF colonies without their resistance has been properly assessed and confirmed in an adverse environment (see surrounded environment of treated hives) to also give me the pleasure of making my own hermeneutical exercise around them. I hope very cordially but quite frankly that your response, if you want to, do not be with hermeneutical issues, but with good and solid arguments put forward in good solid science. This way you will contribute to my learning, and I will never ever forget you .


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> The problem is that the TF colonies are not in an island. The varroa of them does not die with them. The varroa is now in my hives.


Its likely that this won't help you as a commercial beekeeper seeking to move toward tf Eduardo, but for me, as somebody trying only to raise self-sufficient and productive bees, I'm not sure this is a bad thing.

The strong robbing bees are likely to be able to to cope with the mites - they wouldn't have got strong in the first place otherwise. 

The strong robbing colonies are also boosting their stores.

They are helping to finish off weak colonies that would die anyway.

They are being tested by any viruses incubated in the weak colony.

Do you see what I mean? Because I want all my bees to be continually tested by the worst their environment can throw at them, there isn't a problem. 

If I were doing mite counts I'd be getting false data - but I don't do mite counts.

Its rather like the injured fish, rapidly surrounded by a circle of suddenly predatory fish. 

Maybe an infected fish wouldn't attract the same attention. Maybe the other fish have learned not to eat infected fish. Maybe our bees need to learn the same.

Conditioning to the environment (adaptation) isn't something we can hope to understand in every detail. But we do have a choice - to moddlycoddle or let nature take its course. One way leads to decreasing health; and vice-versa.

Maybe you don't want to take that path. But we should all understand that we make that choice.

My beekeeping neighbours have to put up with the effects of my choices. I have to put up with theirs. 

Mike (UK)


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Mike I'll do my testing to create bees resistant to varroa in an isolated apiary. So I try to ensure two things at once:
- Do not get in trouble for others and myself with any excessive loads of varroa;
- Have an ability to control mating with drones desired .

Erick Osterlund and Dr. Robert Danka advised me to do this way. Juhani Lunden, a man in this forum, with vast experience in this area is what has made, if I understand well what he wrote​​. You own tells me to do it this way. It seems to me that the procedure is consensual. I will not be inventing the wheel . TF beggining and raising for varroa resistance yes to me, but properly planned and properly insulated.

Everything else is hermeneutics to me. Unless something has escaped to me or there is a secret to reveal.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Mike I'll do my testing to create bees resistant to varroa in an isolated apiary.


That's a good idea Eduardo, but if you are going for the isolated apiary approach is there any reason not to take a 'live and let die' approach? What I mean is, why fiddle about trying to raise one or two specific traits (like vsh) with time consuming assays, when you can take the crash test, and locate what you need to locate quickly and efficiently? You have the means to quickly multiply what emerges.

I've always thought the 'Soft Bond' approach was suited to working _within_ production apiaries, and turning things around slowly? 



Eduardo Gomes said:


> TF beggining and raising for varroa resistance yes to me, but properly planned and properly insulated.


I'm all for properly planned, and of course you want to insulate your project from your own domesticated bees as well as others - for reasons that run both ways. I just think that given the resources you have to hand, a harder hitting approach might have advantages in terms of labour and speed of results. Better results, faster, and with less investment. 

Mike (UK)


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Mike, Eduardo is planning to be commercial or at least make a decent financial return. 

He will need better and faster results than you have had. He cannot wait 5 years for his first meagre honey harvest or increase hive numbers as slowly as you, or lose as many hives as you.

Necessity dictates he follow a different path. To me, he is taking a very sensible approach in terms of his goals.


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## bjverano (Jun 18, 2014)

TSW
We started out TF 5 years ago and have stayed the course. We've had our best luck with local bees- swarms, split our strong hives, and bought two from a local who developed a severe allergy to bee stings. We've not had good luck from purchasing packages. The ones we bought were from Kelly Bees in Kentucky which is too far south. No criticism intended to Kelly. It gets pretty cold here in central IL. 
We did take a one day beekeeping class. I do recommend that- you could probably make a lot of contacts there. Bee folks love to talk about bees and give advice. Sometimes all that info is overwhelming. 
We've had failures and disappointments-wax worms destroyed a couple hives. Packages bought flew off, some didn't make it through the winter etc. 
You learn as you go. Don't be discouraged. It's a wonderful hobby. Best of luck.


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Show me, please, scientific documents that you know, and support your points of view on the viability/sustainability of having TF colonies without their resistance has been properly assessed and confirmed in an adverse environment (see surrounded environment of treated hives) to also give me the pleasure of making my own hermeneutical exercise around them. I hope very cordially but quite frankly that your response, if you want to, do not be with hermeneutical issues, but with good and solid arguments put forward in good solid science. This way you will contribute to my learning, and I will never ever forget you .


to tell the truth I don't really know what You expect from me? I agree with You. I know that what You write is right. I've written earlier that I don't know the future results of this kind of methods with many apiaries around. I mean I'm sure it is possible, but not sure in what time, what loses, what bee etc. I just say that I'm sure You can undertake some more "radical" means. Maybe with greater loses - who knows. Of course Your situation may not allow that - eg. because of economy. I can afford these means in my conditions, and I believe it won't be with more harm to others than "usual" methods of beekeeping. 
In Poland some beekeepers keep alive queens (because they give good honey crops) that give bees that You have to treat 2 - 3 times a year and still in early autumn they have 5000, sometimes 10000 mites on them (they count, and write about it). Do You think this kind of queens should be kept alive or eliminated? Maybe in the rest of the world is the same? Don't you think that keeping alive these kind of queens is less threat to bees surrounding? I think they are greater danger - they collect mites, they give them away, they allow mite population to grow - sometimes for many years. They give drones, they give queen-daugthers etc... I'd rather allow that bee to die.

If You have some plan to do it (like on the island in isolation) - that's better for You. I agree with all Mr Osterlund writes, I read his works and draw my conclusions. But I don't have any places with isolation here. 

And why I believe in success? Because of evolution. You can read every scientific paper on that since Darwin. maybe bees that don't rob, don't mix with other hives and protect the hive better will survive? You know that nature has her means of coping with each situation. 

Juhani Lunden - You mentioned, made some efforts and his bee is I'm sure fantastic, but he now have problem with inbreeding which he admits Himself on His webpage and this forum. So I believe isolation methods are not always the best for nature. Finally you have to take this bee "out to the world". And what then? Of course You maybe give this bee more chance in the start. If that's what You look for - ok. You have many points on the start.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

People have a rather blurred view on what evolution is. Also most people try to breed bees, but in reality you are breeding mites not bees. It is a co-evolution.

Learn to winter your bees first, learn how to do them good, so they live and thrive. After you have learned to care for your bees properly, you can start to experiment. It is not necessary to let all those bees die to test them for varroa hardyness. Just follow the soft bond test as described by Kefuss: http://www.immenfreunde.de/SBT.pdf

Also beware, that collapsing hives in greater numbers spread their mites on the other hives in the yard. So a hive, that made it very well and resisted mites so far, receives all the mites from the other hives (that collapse), breaks down, too, by the sheer amount of mites invading the hive.

The Kefuss plan keeps survivor bees (and mites) in an isolated apiary. This way you reduce the influence of surrounding collapsing hives. 

What you wanted to try, going head first against a wall, many others tried before you (including me). Unless you are extremely lucky, you will fail like many many others. You better have a plan, a strategy and do smaller steps instead of leaping. Step by step. First step: learn how to keep bees. 

Bernhard


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

BeesFromPoland said:


> to tell the truth I don't really know what You expect from me? I agree with You. I know that what You write is right. I've written earlier that I don't know the future results of this kind of methods with many apiaries around. I mean I'm sure it is possible, but not sure in what time, what loses, what bee etc.


Thank you for your intellectual honesty BFP. You have so many uncertainties like me about the process of developing lines resistant to varroa, in an unfavorable environment. What is in my case an unfavorable environments? is one where the resistant lines are not well identified x surrounded environment with not resistant lines x commercially exploited honeybee colony environment (mines).

The solution of a relatively isolated apiary (no colonies within a radius of about 3 km) makes sense for the two reasons I already mentioned previously. My plan is to outline for this apiary in August/ eptember 2015 about 20 colonies that appear promising me (with good yields and good hygiene behavior ). From month to month I'll doing the mites count. All colonies who have above the 5% threshold leave the program and the apiary before they die and will be treated and returned to my commercial/ conventional apiaries.
In 2016 in March/ April I hope to have 2-4 selected colonies. What wiil be the next step with these selected colonies? I have yet to find out things. Not set aside the hypothesis II do with the sperm of drones these colonies, to accelerate the process.

The following year 2016/2017 repeat the back but this time with 30 or 40 different colonies and of course with the strains previously selected and determined in the previous phase (though the experience and the knowledge gained will make the process most expeditious) .

In the future, with these stock, I will, gradually apiary to apiary, restocking with these lines more tolerant to varroa. And again repeat the selection process in isolated apiary over 30 to 40 colonies, reaching to 100, a year if I can make a proper management of the apiary with this number of colonies. As the Oldtimer says I can not jeopardize my non-tolerant colonies. Only if I was crazy. Maybe I am. Why I will open this new front of work? Not because my operation is suffering losses compromising my future. Fortunately it is not so. It is primarily for a reason that BFP and others calls idealistic. If my idealism can not put my operation at risk, my operation can not put my idealism in shackles. Let's see if I can do the middle way.

Mike I do not intend to select for HSV or other feature exclusively. I believe that this idea may have crossed your mind because I have said I have four colonies appear to have VSH features. I will use these colonies to start my program but I will not be limited to only these, nor I will focus to develop this featur. In Spain, in the University of Cordoba, also were not selected for the VSH if I understand a newsletter that came to me. I will select according to the methodology of Kefuss, eventually making some minor adjustments .

If you wish to make your comments and give your suggestions will be most welcome.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Sounds like an excellent plan to me. Not let bees die or waste hives, make money, yet at the same time work towards treatment free bees just as effectively as the bond method. (The bees left in the treatment free apiary will be the same ones that would have survived using the bond method).

Well thought out, and I think a good model for people who want to develop treatment free bees but at the same time do not want to lose bees and money.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Also beware, that collapsing hives in greater numbers spread their mites on the other hives in the yard. So a hive, that made it very well and resisted mites so far, receives all the mites from the other hives (that collapse), breaks down, too, by the sheer amount of mites invading the hive.
> The Kefuss plan keeps survivor bees (and mites) in an isolated apiary. This way you reduce the influence of surrounding collapsing hives.


Thanks Bernhard. I have exactly the same fear. Kefuss warned us about this phenomenon when he criticizes his BAT test .
Thanks Oldtimer for your encouraging words .


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> . My plan is to outline for this apiary in August/ eptember 2015 about 20 colonies that appear promising me (with good yields and good hygiene behavior ). From month to month I'll doing the mites count. All colonies who have above the 5% threshold leave the program and the apiary before they die and will be treated and returned to my commercial/ conventional apiaries.
> In 2016 in March/ April I hope to have 2-4 selected colonies. ...because I have four colonies appear to have VSH features.


Honestly, to me you, as a commercial beekeeper who is dependent on money from honey, are absolutely insane, if you start from scratch, and not buy already resistant stock at least as a part of your effort. That could save you at least 10 years and a lot of work. Work= money, Time = money

I understand that you want to save your local bee race (_Apis mellifera iberica)_. People are very keen saving races. What is a sc. natural bee race? It is a definition by man. Before you can save a race, you have to define, what is a race. I would be more concerned on saving qualities, genes, and versatility.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Juhani Lunden said:


> I understand that you what to save your local bee race (_Apis mellifera iberica)_.


Juhani thank you for your observation. If anyone is qualified to speak about the effort and the expenditure of resources necessary to select resistant lines is you.

I do not intend to save my iberiensis. I do not pretend to be hit by the increase of aggressiveness (and others things) of hybrids that result from the intersection of iberiensis eg. with carnica or ligusticas or buckfast.

My plan for now can not be another. When I received a reply from a breeder queens of the Basque Country, which is selecting toward tolerance to varroa, saying that he can provide me with queens already selected by him, of course I will not despise this approach you, and others, suggest: move from lines already tolerant. For now I do not consider this alternative in my plan because I have not received an answer to the email I sent to him. But if I do not receive an answer, I will go to him personally to convince him to help me in this project. I am confident and optimistic. 

Another thing that I think playing for me: I'm not pressed for time or ideology to achieve my goals. My operation is solid and if I am not able to carry out this project, does not bring me big financial dent, unless the bitter taste, I have not been able to go further to help the bees to develop their resistance, and with my way, to help pay this debt as a human being I feel I have towards them.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> If you wish to make your comments and give your suggestions will be most welcome.


Eduardo,

To invest a bit of time in thinking of ways to locate feral genes might well pay handsome dividends. I'd look at maps of different sorts, and think about ways to have swarms and cut-out work directed to you. 

I've found towns and villages generally more productive than farmed and rough countryside - but that might just be because there are more people there to spot swarms and complain about chimney bees. 

I live in a place that has had regular though sparse migratory bees for ever, attending to a narrow strip of orchards, about 3 miles wide. To either side of that strip is viable feral country - towns, marshes, and rough countryside. I think this has been a fair recipe for survivor populations to develop. And its probably from them alone that I've found bees that thrive without any help from me. Maybe only about a 1/3d are like that - but they are gold dust.

As well as swarms and cut outs you can get hold of feral genes via bait hives and mating sites. If you can get sound local feral genes your task will be very much quicker and easier. Its worth directing some of your limited energy this way. 

Mike (UK)


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

mike bispham said:


> To invest a bit of time in thinking of ways to locate feral genes might well pay handsome dividends. […] I've found towns and villages generally more productive than farmed and rough countryside. […]Maybe only about a 1/3d are like that - but they are gold dust.[…] If you can get sound local feral genes your task will be very much quicker and easier. Its worth directing some of your limited energy this way.


Thanks Mike for reminding me this great track.

In Portugal firefighters are often called upon to take cumbersome swarms of dwellings or other more remote places. The houses I think it should not interest me because they are new swarms without resistance proven. The most remote places can actually be gold dust. I'll leave my telephone number in the firefighters and also at City Hall. What strategy are you following to locate these good swarms ?


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> What strategy are you following to locate these good swarms ?


Eduardo,

Talk to everyone you come across, and have some cards made to hand out. Its surprising how many calls I get from people who know me, or have heard of me from people I know. Have a memorable name! 

Call up pest controllers and see if you can get wasp swaps going. Some will just give you swarms they've been paid to collect. Round here anyway many pest controllers won't touch established nests, but will be happy to pass on your contact details. 

My local association swarm cordinator is very generous, as well as sympathetic to my project. The local associations love people who'll take cut-outs on, and are happy with the idea of charges. I've been planning to fix up an internet presence, but I'd probably like to damp things down a bit now rather than boost them more.

A very good proportion of the public don't like the idea of killing a bee nest, and will pay to have them rehoused. Just try to arrange for them to find you. I've met many very nice people this way. Always carry a small pot of honey to give them!

For you, if you find a likely locality, a call to the local paper or tv company might be worthwhile toward the height of the swarm period? Ditto public transport services. 

This is something that will build as your name gets around. Have lots of boxes ready! I like to whizz new bees straight into a nuc or double nuc. Pop them on a stand; job done.

BTW last year I twice ran into the tails of swarms as I was driving. Just too many large insects in the air to be normal. Keeping your eyes open helps!

On the other angles; I have several places lined up now that I want to experiment with as mating sites. These same places can hold rough top bar hives of optimum size to local bees (as bait hives). It all takes a little time to set up, but then its just a question of checking back now and then to see what you might have caught! And its always a great pleasure when you arrive and see a load of pollen going into a formerly empty box! 

Mike (UK) 

PS I get lots of bumble bees calls - its a price you have to pay! I did start taking them on (as a paid removal service) but I don't think its something I want to continue.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Another thing that I think playing for me: I'm not pressed for time or ideology to achieve my goals.


Surprising, but good answer. 
I thought you were more of "all or nothing type".

In Finland we think that people in southern Europe are more passionate and less considering, seem it is the opposite.


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

Find someone who is successful, treatment free or not, and learn from them. Ask them if they mind you tagging along when they are working the hives, or better yet see if they'll hire you. There is more to succeeding than whether you treat or don't treat. Treating is probably 4th down the list 

Build upon some type of foundation that you can fall back on while you are working toward your goal. All just my current opinion of course.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

mike bispham said:


> Have a memorable name!


Thanks Mike for your tips. Some of them are very relevant in my local context and I will certainly follow them.

Juhani us in Portugal also find that the northern Europe people are too straights. But I am convinced that I will have many surprises. 

SRatcliff thank you for your kind opinion but... if I work for another beekeeper who will handle my 400 hives?


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## TSWisla (Nov 13, 2014)

I just read through this discussion. I was away for some time. Wow. Some interesting conversation here. I would like to point out something though. Just because a scientist writes an article, it does not mean that it is accurate or correct! You can show data to 3 different scientists or researchers and they can draw three completely different conclusions. Data can be skewed to prove almost anything that the researcher wants you to believe. Just because you have an article showing something that you believe in, it does not make it fact. Be careful what conclusions you draw from articles. I appreciate everyone's input and I look forward to interacting with all of you in the future. Thank you.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> People have a rather blurred view on what evolution is. Also most people try to breed bees, but in reality you are breeding mites not bees. It is a co-evolution.
> Also beware, that collapsing hives in greater numbers spread their mites on the other hives in the yard. So a hive, that made it very well and resisted mites so far, receives all the mites from the other hives (that collapse), breaks down, too, by the sheer amount of mites invading the hive.
> The Kefuss plan keeps survivor bees (and mites) in an isolated apiary. This way you reduce the influence of surrounding collapsing hives.
> 
> ...


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> The Kefuss plan keeps survivor bees (and mites) in an isolated apiary. This way you reduce the influence of surrounding collapsing hives.


Not clear who wrote this. John Kefuss makes clear the _need_ for mites in his breeding system, and bemoans the fact that he hasn't got enough! He offers to _buy_ mite infested hives.

Why do you think he does this?

Mike (UK)


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Galileo also heard of the Inquisition court that he was skewed. However... it moves!


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