# Confused about Fall Treatment Products



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Cyndi......... Have you investigated Oxalic acid??

I have not tried it as I do small cell and fog with FGMO and Thymol. To date my mite count does not merit trying it. But if I needed something to knock the heck out of the beasts........... it sounds like the way to go. 

For ease of use there are formic acid pads available.

Sucrocide sounded promising but there are lots of mixed reviews at this point. Inexpensive enough to try though, depending on your number of colonies.


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

Actually, my hive, 2 weeks ago, was in perfect condition. The only thing I was lacking was a super of sourwood honey...all that rain and NO sourwood - UGH!!!!! So, being the new beekeeper that I am, doing this on my own with no training, no bee-guru to follow, just myself, I just got completely overwhelmed with all the different products to choose from. I like simplicity and I really don't like chemicals. Right now, I don't have any problems, I just need a preventative maintenance solution for fall treaments. I will be using Apilife-var, but what else, if anything do I need to do for this hive?? I'm not even sure if I should re-queen at this point, but Steve Forrest recommends doing it every fall if you want honey for spring.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I am no expert and a newbie for sure.

What I have gleened off this board is that if your present queen is less than 2 years and is producing well..... then leave her be.

I am like you in that I avoid chemicals. I do treat with fumagilin-b for nosema. There is quite a bit of contraversy on this. Many say it is not needed, others say that even a light case will affect honey production considerably.

Fumagilin-b is not an anti-biotic as we normally think and building resistance is not an issue as I understand.

If a product will help survivability and improve honey production without harsh chemicals I will give it a try.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

For me the debate is simple:

In this context, unnatural means, that which the bees would not encounter themselves when left alone in their natural environment.

1) Q: If I were going to eat the honey myself (which I'm not) how much of what other chemicals would I want to eat with my honey? A: None.

2) Q: Will the bees survive if I don't subject them to unnatural chemicals? A: The only way to know the answer is not to poison them with any unnatural chemicals. If they die without being subjected to poisonous chemicals, I will miss them, but I will know they did not die from intentional or inadvertent poisoning by me.


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

Joseph,
I have noticed your signature and this post. I like it. I would like to operate my hives with out treatments, but the other side of the opinions are pretty strong.
What, beside doing nothing, must I do to successfully do nothing as far as treatments go?
Laurence Hope


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

Thanks for your response Joseph,

What treatments if any do you do?? Tell me more about how you have raised bees successfully since the year I was born, without treatments and chemicals, I am sincerely interested.

Cyndi


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Cyndi,

I'm a first year beekeeper too.
There are several folks who post on this forum who seem to manage to keep there bee's without chemicals.

Michael Bush
www.bushfarms.com

and Dennis Murrell
http://bwrangler.litarium.com/

both have websites discusing how they do it
Joseph seem to manage it as well

Dave


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Greetings Cyndi . . .

First, you must monitor your hive's Varroa population. Treat only when mite-levels are high enough to warrant treatment.

Second, before putting ANYTHING into your hive, ask yourself, "Is it food-safe, will it harm the bees".

Third, doing nothing is not an option!

Fourth, 
> . . . just want to keep this as simple as possible and I don't want to over or under medicate these bees. I prefer natural, but am willing to do what is necessary to keep mites and diseases at bay.

Without sounding like a wise-guy, let me say 
1) Nothing about 'treatment' is SIMPLE.
2) 'Over or under' medicating is the source of ALL VARROA PROBLEMS.
3) Everone prefers a 'natural' cure, of SOME KIND.
4) 'What is necessary to keep mites and diseases at bay', WHO KNOWS FOR SURE?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I cannot quantify what, if any, of the things I do with and for my bees assists them in surviving and thriving (it may just be they themselves that provides this missing ingredient).

Hives:
1) I use 10-frame, all medium 6-5/8" size supers, 3 for brood and above that for surplus honey. This provides the possibility of interchanging most frames with any other frame from any other hive and helps keep the weight of a full honey super nearly manageable (I am considering changing to 8-frame supers).
--
http://cordovan-honeybee.com/slatted_racks/slatted_rack_photo_gallery.htm
--
2) Bottom board 3/4" deep with slatted rack insert (I recently added some bottom boards that include a #8 screen platform beneath the rack instead of solid wood  SBB + slatted racks).
3) Bottom 3 brood supers with side slatted racks.
4) I leave a queen excluder above the top brood super, year-round, it helps keep brood out of the surplus supers which are added during honey flows.
5) In the past few years Ive begun to switch the bees to small-cell brood comb using horizontally wired wax and plastic base small-cell foundations and also trimming the end bars to 1-1/4 so 10 frames will fit into the brood supers, even with the side slatted racks. Most colonies are now predominantly small-cell in their brood areas.

Bees:
(Just prior to my move to Arizona I spent several years working in a rural area near Santa Fe, New Mexico, without my own bees and had lost touch with the beekeeping world, though I was aware of AHBs, I was entirely unaware of the mites that were now affecting our bees.)
1) Upon relocating here to Southern Arizona (Marana) to assist my retired parents, I moved a feral colony, which was living beneath a neighbors mobile home, into 10-frame medium supers.
2) They established quickly and soon I was able to make a 4-way walk-away split. Whenever a colony seemed strong enough I repeated the walk-away split process, at least making one colony into 2, sometimes more. After doing this for about 4 years I decided to subscribe to the ABJ and catch up with any developments in the beekeeping world. I learned of the existence of parasitic mites of honeybees, and soon after that I observed Varroa on some of my adult bees and on their brood, especially drone brood.

Treatments:
In all my years of beekeeping Ive been fortunate to never have any serious brood diseases (Ive only ever seen small infections of, chalkbrood and parafoulbrood). When I was 6 years old (First Grade) I learned to read and began reading books on gardening methods and beekeeping which were at my local school library.
1) Wax moths frequently damage my idle combs  Im thinking I might eventually use some biological control for them, perhaps B401.
2) If a biological control is developed for mites, I may try it out too.

Feeding:
I always leave the bees with plenty of their own honey, that way I don't need to feed them sugar.

$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#

Basically, if it isnt broken, why try to fix it.


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## Tom Miller (Aug 10, 2005)

Cyndi: Thought I would weigh in here with my 2 cents worth. I agree with Joseph Clemens, if its not broke don't fix it.
I am located in N. Ga. and currently have 10 hives of bees. We do not requeen or treat for mites or anything else at this time. All of my bees are feral stock from swarms either from a wild colony in my corn crib, swarms from my hives, or wild swarms my friend and I removed from buildings or picked up when we got a call from a concerned homeowner.
I started beekeeping around 1970 and got up to around 40+ hives at one time. Then work interfered and they gradually died out until the only thing left was the feral swarm in the corn crib wall.
When I decided to get back into bees in 1992 I found out the mites had wiped ot 90% of the bees, according to someone at Kellys. The wild bees appear to be coming back in this area. The number of calls we have received this year to remove bees is up from last year and all of the bees we have captured seem healthy.
I am still using Kelly standard wired brood foundation which I have on hand in 10 frame deep super brood chambers with solid bottom boards, but intend to try some Dadant 4.9mm foundation with swarms next spring.
The bottom line is that unless I loose over half of my hives over winter, I don't intend to treat with anything. If I had to treat for mites, I would consider using either the powdered sugar or FGMO first. If you don't have a severe mite problem, I would do nothing, would not requeen, as she should provide you a swarm next spring and allow you to double the number of you hives.
Just my thoughts , hope it helps. Good luck.


Tom Miller


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

Thanks Tom,

What exactly is FGMO?? I don't understand that, sorry if I sound stupid. I did read about the powdered sugar from the web site above, that was really interesting and I hope I can do it properly without mucking it up. 

What do you mean by "she will provide me a swarm next spring and allow me to double the number of my hives??" Are you saying that I should be able to split my existing hive next spring?? I only have 1 hive right now. I was planning on purchasing 2 more (English Garden 8 frame) hives and 2 more packages next spring and using my present hive to help out with the 2 new hives next spring. Is it possible that from what I think you are saying, that I only need to set up the hives and just split the one I have and add new queen's to the new hives and not purchase any more bees?? I really like the "don't fix it if it ain't broke" mentality. I just watched Steve Forrest's video (Brushy Mnt) and he keeps emphasizing about if you don't medicate your bees THEY WILL DIE!! I'm paranoid about that after watching him say that, but even happier to have read these posts and discussion today. This is really a big help to me.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Cyndi,
FGMO = Food Grade Mineral Oil.

If your one colony builds up to good strength early next spring, then you should be able to make at least a split from it. This may reduce your ultimate honey crop, but will increase your number of colonies. Or, you could start two more from packages and boost them with a frame of emerging brood from your established colony. There are many other possibilities as well, trying any of them will help develop your beekeeping skills.

I'm sure Steve is a very good beekeeper, but as with all living things, absolutes can be elusive.

Meaning that my bees haven't heard that if I don't medicate them, they will die. So, since I have never medicated them, they are either dead, and don't know it yet, or living creatures that they are -- they have learned or adapted for survival despite the odds against them.


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

Thanks Joseph,

I'm NOT going to treat my bees this year, not even apilife-var. I am going to chance it, as this is a hobby for me and I don't rely on an income from this. I like the idea of boosting the new colonies next spring with a frame, I was thinking about that too. Well, don't tell your bees what I said about dying:~) Thanks again.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Cyndi, I am a 30 year experienced beekeeper and I would never go into winter without my Bee guru.
Here's a link to your own Bee guru. Use him well. He is smart, free, and will never steer you wrong.
http://www.ncbeekeepers.org/inspect.htm
Mine comes every time I call, "he'll be here tuesday", to inspect my hives and advise me on my next move.
I wouldn't take the world for him.


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

Thanks Iddee, I'll keep that in mind. I do have that website. I really haven't tried contacting these types of people anymore because they too are the very ones that emphasize chemicals and treatments. Then if you mention that you want to do it naturally or with less chemicals or that you don't want to medicate because you don't have a problem....they snicker at you and are closed minded about it. In fact, they have this attitude of knowing it all and treat you like your an idiot. I really don't like dealing with these types of people. I've actually learned more from this bee forum than anywhere and I like the diversity of information and people that are posting. It's really nice here.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

You must have one WAY different then mine. He is always looking for alternative ways and will listen to all ideas and express his opinion in almost in an apologetic manner. We have discussed my plans for a resistent strain through queen breeding, local plants in the smoker, and other ideas. I don't think he has yet to totally reject an idea that hasn't already been proven dangerous . He keeps up with the latest research and explains it, but never pushes it. If you haven't had your area inspector out to talk to you, don't catagorise him by past experiences. Give him a chance.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

<I'm NOT going to treat my bees this year>

Way to go Cyndi. Obviously Mr. Clemens knows his stuff. His bees are alive and that's also your goal. Keep the short term goals in mind and you can do this. Your goal after extracting this year is to bring that hive into early spring queenright and strong enough to split. You can do it and you don't need to use those chemicals. 

Speaking of chems, do you know the queeens used to live and lay for five years. I wonder why they don't anymore. Hmmmmm? BTW, if it were my hive I'd consider the powdered sugar also. If you don't see a mite problem, don't treat for it. 

Best of Luck,

Hawk


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## fat/beeman (Aug 23, 2002)

hello all I am a queen breeder in n ga. no pesticides since 1993 my web page is geocities.com/fatbeeman. as I read the board and hear different ideas makes me wonder why so many people use the chem's so much. and I see some heard queens lasted 5 yrs before all the chem's well I think that'e true,in ABJ past issues they talk about the chem's affect n queen laying.
I went to makeing my own foundation because of all the chem's in the wax you buy no days and its paying off big time now. I don't have to advertise people do it for me and tell there friends about queens raise without chem's.
that's my opion=Don


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think the most important FIRST step is to monitor the mite levels. If you don't have a excess of mites, then don't treat.

The second step, IMO, if you want to keep them without treatments is to move to natural sized or small cell. Natural sized would be starter strips or comb guides on the frames and small cell would be 4.9mm foundation.

The third step, IMO, is to go for healthy hygenic bees. If you have evidence of somthing like Tracheal mites, then get a different queen producer. If you keep raising your own queens they will get mixed with the bees that are living in your climate and have a chance to get acclimatized as opposed to buying queens from climates dramatically different than yours. Also they will be bred from bees surviving where you are.

As fat/beeman says, it makes a lot of difference in the viable life span of a queen. I have some three years old and doing well. I don't think people using chemicals have that kind of experience.

IF You monitor for Varroa mites and IF you need to do something there are many alternatives from powdered sugar to oxaclic acid to FGMO. If you keep monitoring you'll find out if they are working. If you don't monitor you'll never know until the bees are dead.


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

Sooo, let's discuss this powdered sugar ordeal. Are the directions for doing this procedure at the website listed above pretty accurate??? Or does anyone have any imput they would like to share about this?? I have this vision of taking my kitchen cake flour sifter out to the beehive and sprinkling the frames like I would French Toast, LOL!!


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

I tried to find the directions <at the website listed above> and I can't find any. What directions are you asking about. And also you've never said why you want to treat other than someone told you you have to. You don't unless you've tested and found some.

Hawk


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

Hey Hawk,

Actually, you have to click on Varroa Blaster to get those directions from drobbins' post above. The website listed under Michael's. 

No, No I don't need to treat for mites right now. I hope I never have to. Dave had posted the website about how to treat without chemicals. I viewed it and was basically asking for more specific details...like anyone with experience using this powdered sugar method. Just for future reference, that's all.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

I read a post about it two days ago. Can't find it now. It was by 2rubes if I remember right. The only difference was they sifted onto the top bars and then scraped it down in between the hives and the accepted method is to sift directly onto the frames. Both methods seemed to have drops in the thousands. I haven't tried it myself. 

Thanks for the directions.

Hawk


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

I forgot to answer your question. First of all the blaster is overkill. Ask the lady at church with the baby to save you a baby powder blaster. works great. And I think his instructions are backwards. Instead of blasting the first/top box first, take them all off and stack one at a time.

Then blast the bottom box and put it back on the bottom board. Then blast the second brood box and put it back on the bottom brood box. When you're done, you're done. Well, one more thing.

Instead of the nylon stocking in the blaster, the guy here that did it sifted the powdered sugar before he ever took it outside. Apparently that's a normal baking thing before using it. Learned something new.

Good luck,

Hawk


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## Tom Miller (Aug 10, 2005)

Hi Cyndi: Yes I was implying that if you leave the queen alone and do not requeen she will most likely lead a swarm next spring and if you are sucessful in hiveing it you will then have 2 hives instead of 1.
Since there is always a good chance you might not be there when the bees swarm or might not be able to capture the swarm, a surer alternative may be to split the hive in the spring. If this is done when capped queen cells are present and you make sure each hive gets a frame with some of the cells, then I would not order a queen for the new hive, as the bees should hatch one in the hive without a queen. I have done this in the past sucessfully, but do sugest you read up on splitting hives first and if possible, get the help of another beekeeper the first time you try it.

Fat/Beeman: I am glad to see someone is raising queens without chemicals. I seldom need a queen as I let the bees make one when possible, but will keep you in mind if I do need one in future. Where are you located in N. Ga.?


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

Joseph, the picture of your hives show redwood slatting. I wonder if that could be a possibility of no mites. Redwood has it's own defense against insects. It may just slough off enough of its protection to keep any wayward mites at bay.


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

Cyndi!!!

The one thing I have learned and was reiterated in George's Pink Pages is why listen to someone who has to buy new packages of bees every year because they lose most or all of theirs over winter. I have learned more (and different) here and on a couple other sites than I could dream of. I am also learning how to monitor what's going on inside by what's happening outside the entrance. I still have a long road ahead and a lot of mistakes to make. Hopefully I won't lose a hive because of it. David


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Laurence Hope,
The redwood could be part of it, but my slats are actually a random mixture of pine, redwood, and even cedar. Usually each set is one or the other, sometimes they are combinations of these three woods. In my future slat construction I plan to use 1/4" thick x 1-1/2" wide redwood lath, which is available at several of my local lumber yards. This will dramatically change the appearance of my slatted racks (fewer, wider, slats), but I believe they will still retain their function.


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Hi, check out our website www.countryrubes.com for instructions and pictures of us dusting our hives with powdered sugar. There is a post going in Diseases and Pest in the General Forum of people who have used it.
We just did our second (out of 3) treatments yesterday. I'll be taking out the sugar today and checking the mite fall.
Janet


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Cyndi, 

One thing important to learn in beekeeping is, what works for one person may not work for another. The reasons for this can be complex. Some reasons MAY be 
1. Varroa don't do as well in high themperature environments such as Arizona. 
2. People raising their own queens, including feral stock, may have bees that are genitically resistant to Varroa. Chances are your new hive isn't.
3. Some people have small cell bees and say it keeps the varroa at bay.

Get a screened bottom board and sticky board and count your mites. If the numbers are high do some sort of treatment, do mite counts again, if treatment didn't reduce mites enough, step up to a more aggressive treatment. Doing nothing will rarelly work, and I do mean rarely. 
I did powdered sugar treatments, that didn't do well for me so I put Apilife-VAR on 2 days ago. One hive has Parasitic Mite Syndrome, so I pulled all the capped brood and gave it to a broodless nuc to help break up the brood cycle. The only hive I have that is doing well with the mites had a complete break in brood production with zero brood, larve, or eggs for a time. Varro reproduce in the brood cells. Some studies underway are suggesting Parasitic Mite Syndrome (PMS) spores will remain persistent in comb. It is better to not let a hive die from varroa before you decide wheter or not you will begin to treat for mites. I will probably loose the hive with PMS, and likely the nuc, because it is hard to turn PMS around. 

I encourage you to avoid the harsh chems, but if you ignore the mites they won't go away, I'll give you %2 chance of sucess by completely ignoring mites over a 2 year period. 9% chance till next fall without PMS. I say that for clarity, not to make fun or critisize. If you bought the bees from someone using mite treatments for their bees to survive, these bees are going to be the same.

As for working with people that don't encourage more natural treatments, learn from them what you can, say uh-hu, OK, then go and do what you want. These people still know a whole lot about bees and you can learn from them. And your state apiarist will come out and help you determine mite load, if what you are doing is working etc. If he dosen't like what you are doing, as long as its legal, so what. In the end, you may teach them something. But I suspect he/she will be open to ideas that are promising, as Idee says. 

"They" are snickering because they know how bad the mites are. They won't be snickering if apistan and checkmite eventually completely fail them.

Also I ordered Aplife from Brushy Mountain Bee Farm, no problem. Are you sure someone needs to be licensed to use it? Ask again, if so, ask your state apiculturalist how to get it. Bees are his job.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Greetings Robert Hawkins . . .

The nylon stocking prevents the powdered sugar from pouring or 'blasting' out the holes when you squeeze an upside down bottle.

How do you fill a 'baby powder' bottle? Does lid pry off?


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