# Mite Bombs



## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

I am not sure if it is ok to quote someone from another forum, but found this interesting, as I do anything bee related. ;-)

As posted my Randy Oliver on Bee-l: I believe that I posted to the List--will soon be publishing in ABJ and
then to my website. Bottom line, approx 25% of the hives contained 75% of
the total mites in the sampled group of 200+ hives. Coupled with the data
from Eva Frey, Wyatt Mangum, etc on mite immigration from outside sources,
my data strongly supports the hypothesis that a relatively small number of
highly-infested colonies can have a serious impact upon the mite loads of
surrounding colonies.

To many of us who have been keeping bees since before the invasion of
varroa, this phenomenon has been pretty obvious. No matter how well you
control the mites in your operation, it can all be moot if there are a
number of untreated (or poorly managed) colonies in the vicinity.

Many commercial beeks surreptitiously monitor the mite levels in
neighboring operators' hives, and move away if the neighbor is not
controlling his mite levels. This consequences of not doing so was learned
the hard way.

Posted by Kim Flottum on Bee-l:

Several years ago Erik Osterlund, from Sweden, was staying with us for a bit and over supper asked what we did to prevent mite bombs. It was a phrase I had not heard before. He explained the concept of a late fall colony with brood so infested it could not, or would not cope and it would abscond. The bees that left were not swarming so did not do the house hunting thing and simply (usually) found another hive and made themselves to home. That hive, then, would become infested, or more infested with the adult mites that came with the absconding bees. A beekeeper who had been monitoring the hive would see an incredible jump in mite fall the next day or so. If you weren't monitoring, and many don't in the late fall because they've already handled the problem they thought...you'd go into winter with a heavy mite load and lots of trouble. Or, you could do a broodless mite treatment and settle things down a bit. We didn't have formic then, but I think they did. This was before the virus issues were serious, so it was primarily mites that caused the problems. For here, back then, my recommendation was to use a short dose of one of the hard chemicals for major, and quick knockdown. It's the only time I recommend those chemicals, but in this instance it seemed reasonable at the time. We have different choices now. Hence...Mite Bomb. I've been warning folks about this ever since, and I've seen it happen to some of my colonies over the years. As has been said many times...keep checking until the weather says stop.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

with all the warm weather up north this fall and early winter, some are expecting higher mite loses do to mite bombs. Also depending on when you treated and when the brood stopped being produced, your mite level mite be higher than normal.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

That is what I am afraid of; I have to look at my notes but I think I did an OA vapor in early November. Did you have bad robbing and tons of YJ this past Fall? Deb


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>...my data strongly supports the hypothesis that a relatively small number of highly-infested colonies can have a serious impact upon the mite loads of surrounding colonies.

I first said that (as I'm sure others did) back in 2004. When I repeated a few years later it as affecting the outcome of research on Varroa I was pooh poohed as making excuses to discount studies on small cell despite research by Hoopingarner:

"The percentage of foragers originating from different colonies within the apiary ranged from 32 to 63 percent"--from a paper, published in 1991 by Walter Boylan-Pett and Roger Hoopingarner in Acta Horticulturae 288, 6th Pollination Symposium (see Jan 2010 edition of Bee Culture, 36)

Erik has also said it for years.

But now that Randy Oliver said it, maybe it will finally get some traction.


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Below is a quote written by Randy Oliver in ABJ:


> Do not disillusion yourself. Allowing domesticated package colonies to die year after year is not in any way, shape, or form a contribution to the breeding of mite-resistant stocks. There is a vast difference between breeding for survivor stock and simply allowing commercial bees to die from neglect! By introducing commercial bees year after year into an area, and then allowing those package colonies to first produce drones and then to later die from varroa,these well-meaning but misguided beekeepers screw up any evolutionary progress that the local feral populations might be making towards developing natural resistance to varroa. Not only that, but those collapsing "mite bombs"' create problems for your neighbors. Referring to yourself as a bee-keeper confers upon you a responsibility to the local beekeeping community. Allowing hives to collapse from AFB or varroa makes you a disease-spreading nuisance!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That info should be shared more often. :thumbsup:


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Cloverdale said:


> That is what I am afraid of; I have to look at my notes but I think I did an OA vapor in early November. Did you have bad robbing and tons of YJ this past Fall? Deb


I had more robbing than I have seen before. I had significant yellow jackets but they were worse the year before.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

If it takes roughly 1.7 million hives ( latest estimate from a very quick google search) to pollinate almonds. And if only 10% ( not sure the actual number but I believe this is probably low) of those hives swarm a yr. that is 170,000 "Mite bombs " flying around out there untreated. Chew on that thought for a moment.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well that's something of a surprise, all the advice I see is to catch swarms or do cutouts cos then you get feral survivors. So you saying millions of them swarms are not feral survivors at all!

Oh boy, rug just got pulled out from under me again!


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

i don't know anyone that has claimed all feral hives are survivors. Although by the strictest definition all swarms are feral


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"Many commercial beeks surreptitiously monitor the mite levels in
neighboring operators' hives, and move away if the neighbor is not
controlling his mite levels. This consequences of not doing so was learned
the hard way."

Yeah, right. In the dead of night or something? "Many commercial" beekeepers carry shotguns too. So ya better watch yer 6 if you are going to consider trying to monitor your neighbors hives.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Randy Oliver's quote from ABJ about the wrongheadedness of allowing commercial bees to die with the fuzzy idea of "breeding survivors" ought to repeated over and over and over.

Enj.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Harley Craig said:


> If it takes roughly 1.7 million hives ( latest estimate from a very quick google search) to pollinate almonds. And if only 10% ( not sure the actual number but I believe this is probably low) of those hives swarm a yr. that is 170,000 "Mite bombs " flying around out there untreated. Chew on that thought for a moment.


According to our head bee inspector, the checking of bee colonies of commercial beeks b/4 they move south has shown that they keep their mite level extremely low. They have a vested interest in killing mites.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Colino said:


> Below is a quote written by Randy Oliver in ABJ:
> 
> Do not disillusion yourself. Allowing domesticated package colonies to die year after year is not in any way, shape, or form a contribution to the breeding of mite-resistant stocks. Allowing hives to collapse from AFB or varroa makes you a disease-spreading nuisance!


In my presentations, I now include this in the introduction...with my brief vent about internet beekeeping and reality. At the last meeting, after I said this, the crowd broke into applause. Obviously, Randy Oliver isn't the only one who believes it.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

TF is in its infancy. They are taking inferior genetics and trying to sort through it. Whose fault is that? The people who treat. Acquiring varroa resistance is a process. You aren't going to wake up one day and discover you have completely resistant bees. Over time resistance will improve if it is allowed. They shouldn't be blamed for trying to fix a problem not of their making. 

The real elephant in the room is moving large numbers of bees large distances, transporting new strains of disease all over the continent, and importing new disease/pests from overseas. People get excited about TF but what they should be excited about is how many new problems have been imported the last 50 years. That's part of a Oliver presentation as well. The ongoing prophylactic use of chemicals creates genetically inferior bees, the loss of genetic diversity tied to too few queen lines. These broad trends need to reversed and TF is part of the solution.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> According to our head bee inspector, the checking of bee colonies of commercial beeks b/4 they move south has shown that they keep their mite level extremely low. They have a vested interest in killing mites.



I understand that, my question is who is killing the mites int the apx 170000 swarms they are throwing? And, that is only the ones going to almonds. My point was backyard TF beeks are a mere drop in the bucket when it comes to " mite bombs". I would also argue that the majority of TF losses at least in the North come in wintertime where the mites die right along with the bees so one can responsibly keep TF bees with proper management.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

wildbranch2007 said:


> According to our head bee inspector, the checking of bee colonies of commercial beeks b/4 they move south has shown that they keep their mite level extremely low. They have a vested interest in killing mites.


Who's the head bee inspector? How many are inspected? How many hives are moved south?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

MJC417 said:


> Who's the head bee inspector? How many are inspected? How many hives are moved south?


Paul Cappy, when I said our I mean NY, not all the bees in Cali. I don't know the exact amount, probably have it in my notes, but I think they check 10% of all the commercial guys leaving NY. Maybe Mark will have a # for you, or if you really need to know you can email Mr. Cappy.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Harley Craig said:


> I understand that, my question is who is killing the mites int the apx 170000 swarms they are throwing? And, that is only the ones going to almonds. My point was backyard TF beeks are a mere drop in the bucket when it comes to " mite bombs". I would also argue that the majority of TF losses at least in the North come in wintertime where the mites die right along with the bees so one can responsibly keep TF bees with proper management.


sorry didn't know this was a TF vs Treated discussion


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, NYS Apiculturist Paul Cappy would be the best source of info for what you are asking about.

Mike, if you don't mind, 10% of the hives that migrate are inspected, not "10% of the commercial guys".


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Harley Craig said:


> I understand that, my question is who is killing the mites int the apx 170000 swarms they are throwing? And, that is only the ones going to almonds. My point was backyard TF beeks are a mere drop in the bucket when it comes to " mite bombs". I would also argue that the majority of TF losses at least in the North come in wintertime where the mites die right along with the bees so one can responsibly keep TF bees with proper management.


TF losses in the winter are caused by big mite bombs leading up to winter, by the time the colony has died the mites are already out of the 'barn' and have been for quite some time. Is that responsible to you? :scratch:


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Mike, if you don't mind, 10% of the hives that migrate are inspected, not "10% of the commercial guys".


me mind anything, never, they could inspect 20% if they wishedopcorn:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do not disillusion yourself. Allowing domesticated package colonies to die year after year is not in any way, shape, or form a contribution to the breeding of mite-resistant stocks. There is a vast difference between breeding for survivor stock and simply allowing commercial bees to die from neglect! By introducing commercial bees year after year into an area, and then allowing those package colonies to first produce drones...

And the ones treating are contributing those same inferior drones to the gene pool.

“If you’re not part of the genetic solution of breeding mite-tolerant bees, then you’re part of the problem”– Randy Oliver]

Do not disillusion yourself. Buying domesticated package colonies and treating them year after year is not in any way, shape, or form a contribution to the breeding of mite-resistant stocks.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Maybe you meant 10% of the commercial guy's bees?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> Do not disillusion yourself. Buying domesticated package colonies and treating them year after year is not in any way, shape, or form a contribution to the breeding of mite-resistant stocks.


who claims it is??
I wonder what the next topic will be if the mite issue is ever resolved to the point of being yesterdays problem?
Lots of folks will have to find another issue to blow through their horns.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Colino said:


> Below is a quote written by Randy Oliver in ABJ:
> "By *introducing commercial bees year after year *into an area, and then allowing those package colonies to first *produce drones *and then to later die from varroa, these well-meaning but misguided beekeepers *screw up any evolutionary progress that the local feral populations* might be making towards developing natural resistance to varroa."


This is true! Most if not all of the blame should be placed on the commercial bees. Do you blame the drug user that buys drugs once and a while or do you blame the drug dealer who pushes and distributes his product to millions? Yes they are both guilty, but who's worse!

So what do we do? We educate! Make drugs illegal...



lharder said:


> The real elephant in the room is moving large numbers of bees large distances, transporting new strains of disease all over the continent, and importing new disease/pests from overseas.


Yes indeed! Worse than just moving them around is making and selling packages from these inferior bees. Shipping these inferior packages to every city, every town in the whole country. Allowing one drone to leave one of these inferior hives is just as bad. The hive does not need to be infested of mites to spread it's inferior genes. This is why there are only small pockets of feral survivors in remote locations. 

And the disease they spread is a whole other store in itself. We have at least 7 different strains of EFB and 13 different stains of AFB. New disease showing up all the time.

*"introducing commercial bees year after year...allowing those package colonies to...produce drones...screw up any evolutionary progress that the local feral populations"*

It really does not make a difference if the hive lives or dies!

As long as we "prop up" weak bees the pests and diseases will proliferate.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm getting the feeling that banning the movement of bees is becoming a Treatment Free Credo.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

FlowerPlanter said:


> ........
> 
> It really does not make a difference if the hive lives or dies!
> 
> As long as we "prop up" weak bees the pests and diseases will proliferate.


This is true:
"Allowing hives to collapse from AFB or varroa makes you a disease-spreading nuisance!" R Oliver.

*Do not let yourself, or anyone you know become a disease-spreading nuisance.
*


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Maybe you meant 10% of the commercial guy's bees?


I think my miss type is more interesting, I guess they would have to test all the commercial guys to be fair.:lpf:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Even the nonmigratory.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> sorry didn't know this was a TF vs Treated discussion



are you suggesting that 

"To many of us who have been keeping bees since before the invasion of
varroa, this phenomenon has been pretty obvious. No matter how well you
control the mites in your operation, it can all be moot if there are a
number of untreated (or poorly managed) colonies in the vicinity.

Many commercial beeks surreptitiously monitor the mite levels in
neighboring operators' hives, and move away if the neighbor is not
controlling his mite levels. This consequences of not doing so was learned
the hard way."


was not directed toward TF operations?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ha Ha, how fickle is the public.

I can remember back when Randy Oliver was an object of derision on the treatment free forum, even though I could see he was really a friend, just an honest one.

This, for example, quoted from Solomon Parker "http://science.time.com/2013/08/09/t...ene/?hpt=hp_t3 Alarmist, ignorant, Randy Oliver not helping as usual".
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...e-Article&p=983393&highlight=randy#post983393

Anyhow, over time luckily most folks have taken the time to see what he has actually been saying, the other extreme takes over he is now darling of TF beekeepers.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> I'm getting the feeling that banning the movement of bees is becoming a Treatment Free Credo.



It would never happen, but without a doubt things would be better if they didn't. With that being said though I understand why it has to be that way.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Ha Ha, how fickle is the public.
> 
> I can remember back when Randy Oliver was an object of derision on the treatment free forum, even though I could see he was really a friend, just an honest one.
> 
> ...


Sol makes a point with this comment " There are still far too many people who get into beekeeping to "save the bees" and articles like this only fan the flames. What they don't get is that they're usually walking right into doing what's causing the problem to begin with. All the beekeeping suppliers should be happy and happier that "all these horrible things are happening to the bees," what with all the new customers all the time."


I've always thought we had a beekeeper problem instead of a bee problem long before I knew who Sol or Sam or that there was even a TF movement. I've thought this about most modern farming practices.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Harley Craig said:


> are you suggesting that
> 
> "To many of us who have been keeping bees since before the invasion of
> varroa, this phenomenon has been pretty obvious. No matter how well you
> ...


didn't write it, not my interpretation that's yours. but other than going into other peoples hives, I agree pretty much with those statements. yup pretty accurate, I keep track of all the hives around my apiaries and find out if the beeks treat, if they don't treat I give them my phone #, ask them to monitor, and to please call me when the bees start to crash so that I can treat my bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Check it out though, you will find Randy was often under attack and sometimes in quite a nasty way. I could see at the time the problem was Randy has an open mind and not everything he said fitted with what some folks saw as the right way.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Check it out though, you will find Randy was often under attack and sometimes in quite a nasty way. I could see at the time the problem was Randy has an open mind and not everything he said fitted with what some folks saw as the right way.



I have no doubt that this is probably true, which is unfortunate. People get hung up on things and think their way is the right way for everyone. This methodology doesn't work with any other aspect of life so why would it work for bees?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> didn't write it, not my interpretation that's yours. but other than going into other peoples hives, I agree pretty much with those statements. yup pretty accurate, I keep track of all the hives around my apiaries and find out if the beeks treat, if they don't treat I give them my phone #, ask them to monitor, and to please call me when the bees start to crash so that I can treat my bees.



then you got your answer 


Edit: where did this come from all I quoted was " no" LOL Do you call your neighbors when you lose a swarm to let them know there are untreated "mite bombs " in the area?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Harley Craig said:


> Edit: where did this come from all I quoted was " no" LOL Do you call your neighbors when you lose a swarm to let them know there are untreated "mite bombs " in the area?


the untreated mite bombs come from my neighbors hives, they call me, no?:no:


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> the untreated mite bombs come from my neighbors hives, they call me, no?:no:


so you are saying that your bees don't swarm? where do I get these magic bees? but since we both know that a few do get away , how are they not a problem for you? Would it not make more sense to focus on what is happening in our own operation and either treat or not depending on what the circumstances call for than to wait for someone to tell you when you should treat?


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

sqkcrk said:


> I'm getting the feeling that banning the movement of bees is becoming a Treatment Free Credo.


The science of genetics, ecology, evolution, epidemiology, system dynamics at local, regional, continent wide level needs to be used to create policy that brings some stability to the situation. 

It can be useful to think of critters living in dynamic adaptive landscapes. It includes not only the physical environment but also the interactions with pathogens, parasites, symbionts, food sources, competitors etc etc. If that landscape changes too quickly, then it becomes unlikely that a critter can adapt to some optimum. 

Understanding the system perhaps would allow one to figure out how much gene flow for both the critter and its entourage of associates would lead to more stability that what we are seeing now. So moving bees too much over too long a distance, probably creates long term system instability.

http://www.randalolson.com/2014/04/17/visualizing-evolution-in-action-dynamic-fitness-landscapes/ is a link to a very simple 3d illustration of an dynamic adaptive landscape where a critter is pulled between 2 varying adaptive peaks. If landscape change is slow, then the critter has a chance to adapt to some optimal level. If it speeds up, then it has trouble adapting and muddles along.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

enjambres said:


> Randy Oliver's quote from ABJ about the wrongheadedness of allowing commercial bees to die with the fuzzy idea of "breeding survivors" ought to repeated over and over and over.
> 
> Enj.


Yes yes!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lharder said:


> So moving bees too much over too long a distance, probably creates long term system instability.


As true as this may be. Would you suggest we stop "moving bees too much over too long a distance"? And if we did, how long would Canadian beekeepers still have bees? What do you consider "too much" and "too long a distance"?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> And if we did, how long would Canadian beekeepers still have bees?


Honestly. Do you really think the Canadians absolutely MUST buy packages from NZ and AU? Have you read Vickery? He wintered nucleus colonies in Quebec AND Manitoba. _The Honey Bee_, Vernon Vickery


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Harley Craig said:


> so you are saying that your bees don't swarm? where do I get these magic bees? but since we both know that a few do get away , how are they not a problem for you? Would it not make more sense to focus on what is happening in our own operation and either treat or not depending on what the circumstances call for than to wait for someone to tell you when you should treat?


stop trying to put words in my mouth please.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Honestly. Do you really think the Canadians absolutely MUST buy packages from NZ and AU? Have you read Vickery? He wintered nucleus colonies in Quebec AND Manitoba. _The Honey Bee_, Vernon Vickery


No, Michael, I haven't read Vickery. Somebody in Canada thinks they MUST buy packages from NZ and AU. A heck of a lot of them are bought.

Can you imagine a day when no bees are moved?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> stop trying to put words in my mouth please.



you are the one who said the mite bombs come from your neighbors, and you tell them to call you when theirs crash.... I'm just trying to figure out how your own and everyone else's swarms fit into that picture and who calls you when the now feral swarms crash?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Harley Craig said:


> you are the one who said the mite bombs come from your neighbors, and you tell them to call you when theirs crash.... I'm just trying to figure out how your own and everyone else's swarms fit into that picture and who calls you when the now feral swarms crash?


your the one fascinated with swarms, I only worry about things that I can control, I control swarming, I don't worry about feral bees I have no control over these.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Harley, the analogy that comes to mind is that of a moderate business with regular type expenses (rent, insurance, payroll, inventory,debt, marketing, equipment, etc.)...in the case if just about any business renting space and having a few full time employees, any of the above is likely to be significant costs.

The manager or the consultant comes along and points out that the company should be making more money...and that the problem is the expenses are too high. There are dozens of things that cost tens of thousands of dollars a year on that list if expenses...all necessary, but all subject to review and 'cutting the fat'...but of course things are running smoothly the way they are, so considering moving to save on rent, or looking into a cheaper insurance option, or not hiring the owners nephew for the summer...or just grow the business and sell more product. these are all difficult things..and they are where the majority of expenses lie.

Instead, the workers are told that they will now have to chip in if they want coffee, as they are trying to cut back on the expenses for everyone's benefit.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> your the one fascinated with swarms, I only worry about things that I can control, I control swarming, I don't worry about feral bees I have no control over these.



so how do you control your neighbor to ensure he will call?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I can remember back when Randy Oliver was an object of derision on the treatment free forum, even though I could see he was really a friend, just an honest one.

Odd, I can't.

>This, for example, quoted from Solomon Parker "http://science.time.com/2013/08/09/t...ene/?hpt=hp_t3 Alarmist, ignorant, Randy Oliver not helping as usual".
http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ndy#post983393

One person said one thing about Randy that was negative, and all of a sudden all TF people see him as the enemy? I've had Randy Oliver quotes in my presentations for more than a decade... and not in a negative way...

>Anyhow, over time luckily most folks have taken the time to see what he has actually been saying, the other extreme takes over he is now darling of TF beekeepers.

He's was not the enemy of the TF beekeepers. He is not now the darling of TF beekeepers. How does everything go so black and white for you?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Selective memory. 

And Deknow, your analogy has me mystified. Interesting little story, but I see no relationship between it and anything else in this thread, Care to explain?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Well, now that I think of it, Randy's "Beekeeper Taliban" comment riled some treatment free people up. Being compared to terrorists seemed a bit over the top... I just don't pay much attention to the "haters" on any side. And I certainly would not characterize any group as hating or adoring Randy. Individuals may or may not.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Michael how many treatment free queens do you produce and spread around each year?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> And Deknow, your analogy has me mystified. Interesting little story, but I see no relationship between it and anything else in this thread, Care to explain?



glad someone else said something I didn't get it either, and was wondering if I should feel stupid. LOL


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Phew! Now I don't feel such a schmuck. 


Memory starting to return Mike?

Did the beekeeping Taliban mention TF beekeepers? Funny, I don't remember that. The article was about narrow minded beekeepers didn't mention TF beekeepers at all.

LOL


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael how many treatment free queens do you produce and spread around each year?

As many as I have time to raise which in recent years is not many.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Memory starting to return Mike?

My memory is fine. It's the generalizations I don't get. I've always respected Randy though I don't always agree with him. I can't make generalizations about any "group" and their feelings but I don't see that "he is now darling of TF beekeepers" nor that he "was an object of derision on the treatment free forum". Randy is a fine beekeeper with strong opinions and is willing to share them. My opinion of him hasn't changed. I seriously doubt that anyone else in the "treatment free" group has changed their opinion much one way or the other in recent times. Certainly not that I am aware of. You have characterized TF beekeepers as "fickle" for reasons that I do not see and characterized it as " the other extreme takes over". What extreme?


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

sqkcrk said:


> As true as this may be. Would you suggest we stop "moving bees too much over too long a distance"? And if we did, how long would Canadian beekeepers still have bees? What do you consider "too much" and "too long a distance"?


I don't know, restriction could be absolute to minimal. The intercontinental movement of bees is low hanging fruit. If one wanted to import some genetic diversity, then it could be done with sperm at minimum risk. I don't support bees coming in here from New Zealand or Australia. Each region should be able to be more or less self sufficient. A theoretical frame work or model specific to honey bee ecology would have to be worked out and then the hard work of figuring out how well it conforms to real life by looking for regional opportunities to implement it and following the results. Really this is a long term project that would require up to a century of long term work to get to the heart of a working model with data to back it up. Lots of time for people to change business models. But a stable adaptive environment is probably worth it and good for business.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Honestly. Do you really think the Canadians absolutely MUST buy packages from NZ and AU? Have you read Vickery? He wintered nucleus colonies in Quebec AND Manitoba. _The Honey Bee_, Vernon Vickery



I'm in zone 6, warmer than where you are right? The river bottoms here in southern BC are around zone 5. We have Vancouver Island and Vancouver with large swathes of zone 7 or 8. Southern Ontario produce grapes and peaches so is relatively mild. I can get queens from Saskatchewan so they must be able to produce bees in the prairies as well.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >Memory starting to return Mike?
> 
> My memory is fine. It's the generalizations I don't get. I've always respected Randy though I don't always agree with him. I can't make generalizations about any "group" and their feelings but I don't see that "he is now darling of TF beekeepers" nor that he "was an object of derision on the treatment free forum". Randy is a fine beekeeper with strong opinions and is willing to share them. My opinion of him hasn't changed. I seriously doubt that anyone else in the "treatment free" group has changed their opinion much one way or the other in recent times. Certainly not that I am aware of. You have characterized TF beekeepers as "fickle" for reasons that I do not see and characterized it as " the other extreme takes over". What extreme?


In addition, if one was going to pick 2 'treatment free beekeepers' to represent all treatment free beekeepers here on beesource, one would not pick WLC and Sol. I've openly been critical of things they have posted here on beesource, and i've not read anything they've written outside of beesource....they aren't even on beesource.

WRT Randy, like most beekeepers (and people) I know, I've had some positive interactions with him, and some negative. I've had positive reactions and things to say about things he's written, and negative things to say about others. I don't know how what Sol or WLC says or said about him has anything to do with 'treatment free beekeepers' anymore than what Ace says has anything to do with 'treatment free beekeepers'. Randy has been very helpful to me at times, and he has been a jerk at times...and he would likely say the same about me.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> Selective memory.
> 
> And Deknow, your analogy has me mystified. Interesting little story, but I see no relationship between it and anything else in this thread, Care to explain?


errrr...

You have the stakeholders (managers/owners) identify a problem (costs are too high). Despite the fact that the coffee budget is insignificant compared to almost any other expense, the workers (the non stake holders) are told that costs are too high in part, because of the free coffee....in order to help the business (and keep the employees employed), the coffee budget will take the blame for the high expenses, the employees will be the ones to change and take on the expense.....the problem does not get solved because the coffee budget has almost nothing to do with the bottom line, and the stakeholders don't acknowledge that high expenses are the problem...it's the coffee that is the problem.

I started a whole thread asking this question about the swarms from commercial beekeepers and from a quantitiative standpoint, how do they contribute to mite bombs in comparison to beekeepers that aren't treating....my recollection is that no one was even willing to discuss the fact that commercial bees swarm a measurable percentage of the time, and doing a little back of the envelope math yields a lot of untreated and not-mite-resistant colonies.....(not coincidentally) often near commercial bee yards.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Unfortunately, there is ISIS out there as well as the Taliban. ISIS correctly points out that what the Taliban believes is merely one perspective, and may not be right for everyone....unfortunately, they point this out while dictating what the right way is for everyone.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

deknow said:


> errrr...
> 
> the stakeholders don't acknowledge that high expenses are the problem...it's the coffee that is the problem.


I'm with you Oldtimer....even after 'clarification'.....I see absolutely no connection to this thread.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

In the case of beekeeping, the stakeholders are a relatively small number of commercial operations, academics, and researchers....maybe 1500 people? 2000?

A problem is identified...mite bombs....untreated colonies of bees that are responsible for the losses of commercial beekeepers and other beekeepers.

If, on average, commercial beekeepers (who run about 2 million hives?), have an average annual swarm rate of 1% (some will do much better, some much worse), and if we assume that the bees that are swarming from their operations are selected based on how they perform with treatments are therefore not likely to be the most 'mite resistant' or 'mite tolerant' stock available....that equates to 20,000 swarms from about 1000 commercial beekeeping operations. Check my numbers and my math please...I put it here so that my reasoning will be understood.

I don't know how many 'mite bombs' one wants to attribute to TF beekeepers, or to lazy beekeepers, or to 'bad' beekeepers. 20,000 swarms (which are by their nature likely to be near where commercial operations go) is a large number, and if mite bombs are a problem, this seems to be the low hanging fruit (modifying the 1% of the operations with 99% of the bees is much easier than the reciprocal), and the fruit that will continue to rot even if TF beekeeping is banned and all the bee trees (they are mite bombs also) are burned to the ground.

Meanwhile, a small subset of the 99% of beekeepers that have 1% of the bees get blamed for causing all the mite bombs (the coffee budget, if you will), and the 1% of beekeepers that are responsible for the 90+% swarms (?) that also become mite bombs don't exist.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

deknow said:


> if mite bombs are a problem, this seems to be the low hanging fruit (modifying the 1% of the operations with 99% of the bees is much easier than the reciprocal), and the fruit that will continue to rot even if TF beekeeping is banned and all the bee trees (they are mite bombs also) are burned to the ground.


I'm glad you cleared that up.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

We seem to have a little fuzzy maths here that does not seem to relate to mite bomb problems. My definition of a mite bomb is a hive that is over run with mites is going through the stages of PMS and is in difficulty. Generally hives of this type are found by foraging bees and robbing starts, mites are aware of dwindling brood and bees and latch on to robbing bees and thus the mites are transferred to hives that were relatively mite free who then become infested in a very short time. As far as commercials swarms, I do not believe a commercial beekeeper who is not controlling mites will remain in business for too long as per some fella in NY who lost a great deal of his hives and claimed it was from neonics. So that is my idea of mite bombs.
Johno


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Johno you missed the point. The swarms are not mite controlled once they escape from the beekeeper.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Oh yes but only about 10% of swarms will survive the first year. and they will be well spread out not like some bee yard.
Johno


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Even if only 10% survive they still become mite bombs.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Dave Burrup said:


> Even if only 10% survive they still become mite bombs.


...and the other "90%" become infested, collapse, and get robbed out by other bees....so all 100% becomes mite bombs this year...and there is another 100% to replace the dead 90% next year.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

And ISIS, the Taliban, and the price of coffee obviously prove the whole thing. If I read it enough I may understand.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

deknow said:


> Randy has been very helpful to me at times, and he has been a jerk at times...and he would likely say the same about me.


I am sure Randy has helped you at times, that is the nature of the man. But he has been a jerk? Honestly, I do not believe that and don't know why people say those kind of things about him. And yes, sadly, these types of attack on Randy almost always come from TF folks, although I'm sure the majority of TF folks would disapprove of this behaviour strongly. He is not a jerk.
And he would say the same about you? I highly doubt that and think you are putting words in his mouth.

Just, Randy is one of the most honest and open minded beekeepers I know, it saddens me when he is derided like this.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

There are no commercial beekeeping operations for 30 miles. Any mites up here have come from private purchases for home beekeeping. That said , every wild hive has mites, requiring treatment, once hived into woodenware I dont bother purchasing bees anymore.. If anything the domestics have even worse, and more, resistant mites. Every hive in this area, untreated, feral or otherwise, is already a mite bomb. And its remote, and isolated. I doubt other areas are better. What Is not being said, is that it doesnt require a collapsed hive full of hungry mites. 1 mite on a foraged flower, will climb on a bee, and eventually infest a hive. Thats the meaning of "phoretic", that they are somewhat mobile. Blame the mites, not beekeepers. No one can prevent robbing, or mites on foragers flying around.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

clyderoad said:


> I wonder what the next topic will be if the mite issue is ever resolved to the point of being yesterdays problem?
> Lots of folks will have to find another issue to blow through their horns.


"The problem of the Cape bee."


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

I read a very interesting thesis, online, about Apis Mellifera Capensis. They are from the western side of the Cape of Good Hope, South Africa. Same ones you refer to? Parthenogenic, and considered a parasitic bee, due to hive usurping. They render all hives in their area, their subspecies, within 1 year. Laying workers create female queens. With pheremones designed to usurp Euro bees. NIIIICE! Immortal agressive AHB. I hope those never get out!


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

jadebees said:


> Same ones you refer to?


Yep. Or the next problem could be that feral _apis melliferra_ fail to develop sufficient resistance to _varroa_, and _apis cerano_ moves into their ecological niche in the western world and causes our "native" flowering species to be supplanted by those from _cerano's_ home range.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> But he has been a jerk? 

Of course not. Being compared to the Taliban is a gentle, friendly compliment...


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Ya, I found out I was ,(was called) an "idiot", "Moron", and a posterior orfice, for "making bees produce killer mites", and" making poison honey".. when i started treating for mites. By someone with a failed beeyard, due to mites.... guess he kept the faith a bit too long. He's a bit too rigid about TF. Cool if others can make it work, personally, I get sick of dead bees. If others can, maybe I won't need oxalic acid someday.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

So now Mike you too wish to imply he is a jerk?

Strange when folks claim memory lapse in an endeavour to prove that none but a few fanatics have ever had a bad word to say about Randy, yet connot contain themselves from badmouthing the guy even in the very same thread in which they are trying to deny it ever happened.

Can you see why I didn't buy the memory lapse?

And about the beekeeping Taliban article, it offended you? Why? The article was spot on and you would be mistaken if you assumed the whole thing was about you. As an open minded beekeeper who enjoys honest research, Randy has been disturbed by narrow minded beekeepers who have developed one way of doing things, and believe they are the sole holders of the truth and the only right way, and attempt to force all others to do the same. Like the Taliban. Me, I felt it was an excellent article, beekeeping Taliban even exist in my country, let me give an example.
I can tell this story because I know the guy involved does not read the net. Some years back I was approached by a bee club and asked if I would be the apiary manager. The job description was run all their hives which were several different types and methods, everything from a top bar, a warre, a weird 2 queen long hive with supers on, a treatment free, an organic lang and some standard run langs. The idea being to demonstrate many different ideas and practises to members. 
Sounded interesting so I volunteered to do the job. However a couple things needed to change. The treated hives in the apiary had for years been treated with either Apistan, or Bayvarol, every 6 months. Unsurprisingly these hives were starting to have issues which is why I was called in. I told the club leadership some changes I needed to make which included a less harsh treatment regime and the purchase of some VSH queens to see if we could go no treatment at all. 
This is where the old apiary manager put his foot down. my ideas were crazy and he would not permit it. In fact nothing in the way the hives had been managed could change at all. So although the hives were struggling, and I had been brought in to do something about that, when the chips were down this guy was not going to allow any change. Which left me with everyone expecting me to turn things around but I was hamstrung and couldn't. 
There was a meeting of the club leadership so I put my cards on the table and listed a bunch of changes that I would need to make. Nearly all were in favour. But the old apiary manager was intractably opposed and such was his influence that nothing I needed to do was going to happen. My position was untenable so I quit.

That guy was an exact example of the beekeeping Taliban mentality that Randy was referring to and I agreed with his article wholeheartedly. 

The negative reaction to Randy's article was from people who read it and thought it must be about them. Sorry to see that you were offended by it Mike but if a person took it personally is over to them. The article was not about TF people, it was about any fanatic who believes they alone hold the truth and attempt to force all others to do it the "right and only way".

I'm glad the article was written, the fact such an article actually exists and is out there is a good thing, it is merely a plea for people to have an open mind. But that article is not the only reason certain people badmouth Randy, that was going on even before the beekeeping Taliban article.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

You're making a serious error here Oldtimer. You are responding to emotion with logic. Never works.


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

jadebees said:


> There are no commercial beekeeping operations for 30 miles. Any mites up here have come from private purchases for home beekeeping. That said , every wild hive has mites, requiring treatment, once hived into woodenware I dont bother purchasing bees anymore.. If anything the domestics have even worse, and more, resistant mites. Every hive in this area, untreated, feral or otherwise, is already a mite bomb. And its remote, and isolated. I doubt other areas are better. What Is not being said, is that it doesnt require a collapsed hive full of hungry mites. 1 mite on a foraged flower, will climb on a bee, and eventually infest a hive. Thats the meaning of "phoretic", that they are somewhat mobile. Blame the mites, not beekeepers. No one can prevent robbing, or mites on foragers flying around.


You're saying that feral colonies, or colonies that are more adapted to their climate are are worse or have worse mites than heavily managed commercial colonies?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So now Mike you too wish to imply he is a jerk?

Again, everything for you is black and white... I don't know what to tell you since you will swing it one way or the other. I don't think Taliban is a compliment...

>Can you see why I didn't buy the memory lapse?

No. I can see everything to you is one way or the other and never in the middle. For you it's all one group thinking all one thing. 

>And about the beekeeping Taliban article, it offended you? Why? The article was spot on and you would be mistaken if you assumed the whole thing was about you. 

I never said it was about me nor did I say I was offended by it. I do think it was about treatment free people in general. We are just discussing if someone, sometimes, can be a jerk and other times be a great guy. I am not trying to classify anyone as any one thing but you seem intent on doing so.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> I never said it was about me nor did I say I was offended by it.


But, clearly, you were offended by it.



Michael Bush said:


> I do think it was about treatment free people in general.


Ah. So you do think that, and by implication, it was about you. The truth will out. 

But hey, no big deal I think that a long time ago everyone already worked this out. The whole argument about it in this thread sprung from me not accepting the implied claim (via memory loss) that nobody except one person had ever said a bad word about Randy. Just the goings on in this thread have shown there is a lot more prejudice than that, so, my work here is done. 

And oh, black and white. Is that a criticism or something? I am a bit that way. But I do understand. Vagueness and memory loss are so much simpler, I guess.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I was going to say some thing about an organ grinder and his monkey but I think that I will just keep it to myself.
Johno


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Vagueness and memory loss are so much simpler, I guess.

I think you're the first person in my life who ever accused me of "vagueness". There's a first time for everything. You also seem to be the first person to accuse me of having a bad memory. My memory is fine.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

By the way....wasn't there a treatment free advocate who publicly accused Randy Oliver of an ethical lapse because some chemical outfit once paid his airfare for a trip? To Israel, I think. I was only an observer to the dialog....so I'm a bit foggy. Dean....do you recall any of this?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

So, assuming the Taliban characterization has nothing to do with anyone in particular.....can anyone name a beekeeper that actually _should_ be compared to the Taliban by anyone? Certainly there can't be such a generalization if it isn't true about anyone in particular.

Who have you encountered anywhere that isn't a seriously violent person who's actions or attitudes put them on pat with the Taliban?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

deknow>> come on. why don't you correspond with Oliver and ask him directly who or not he was referring to? what are you trying to get at by even asking something like this? come on now.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

beemandan said:


> By the way....wasn't there a treatment free advocate who publicly accused Randy Oliver of an ethical lapse because some chemical outfit once paid his airfare for a trip? To Israel, I think. I was only an observer to the dialog....so I'm a bit foggy. Dean....do you recall any of this?


I have seen folks repeat this, it's usually the uber anti Monsanto crowd....... you know the ones who won't even paint their hives because they don't want to harm their bees, and the same ones that can't believe I keep bees and use roundup LOL They are on the fringe and don't represent me, nor most of us as TF beekeepers.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

There were many such comments...tame c9mpared to what michael bush was accused of wrt the flow hive.

Funding is always relevent. If beekeeping clubs in Australia paid to have michael come over to present to them, that is a different mechanism and sends a different message than if the flow hive people flew him over and he spoke to clubs while there. I seem to recall something similar.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Before this thread gets moderated I'd suggest that we pause prior to posting character assessments and instead, stick to the original topic. PM's may be a more suitable platform for off topic discussion.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

A quote from Randy Oliver. Take note of the high lighted. 



> Take home message--one must be very careful about generalizing anything
> about beekeeping!
> 
> That said, due to the often high degree of drift between colonies, there is
> ...


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

S. Ratcliff, I hadn't really thought about it that way but I believe you're right, that wild bees will have a higher mite load. But there are some mitigating factors that allow them to live with that mite load. They will swarm 4-5 times a year. More often small swarms are becoming the norm here In feral bees , several times a year rather than one big one in the spring . I have noticed the difference in the last 5 years, more swarms but smaller. So they are adapting to a point. They often abandon their hives completely when infested. And then other swarms will move in later to the used hive. There's nothing better than a broodless period, for getting rid of mites. That's one of the treatment free techniques, which they do naturally . They usually take a longer winter brood break. However to use these traits in a production situation would cause you to have many very small hives. I've actually thought about trying it but it seems a little ridiculous to have 100's of 6 or 8 frame hives, with tiny supers. I see many problems with these bees as soon as they get hived, swarming inhibited, made bigger and supers put on. The feral bees here are showing traits of Apis cearana, the mites original natural host. But.... surviving. Often mites become evident before they have filled 1 Warre box, in the wild caught bees here. I make them cope, as well as they can, until combining them, to get " winter sized". Some are not looking too good, by Sept. ,those queens dont make the cut. But keeping bees here is hard anyway.


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