# Too much feeding going on?



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Amen Mark.

Here in Maine (my most famous expression) hives started from nucs and packages most likely need feeding until the fall flow begins. They don't have the field force to make use of the spring flow and without feeding don't have the resources to draw comb and expand their population. After the fall flow they get treated like any other hive - checked to see if they have enough stores for winter and fed again if they don't.

Over wintered hives are not coddled. Maybe if I've got extra time on my hands in spring they'll get a gallon or two to try and kick start their growth - but this year I didn't even get to my unwrapping until late April. My "day job" is doing income tax prep so until April 15 I am busy with earning money to support my bee habit!

I expect my overwintered colonies to have the field force needed to take advantage of the spring honey flow and to be smart enough to see to their honey needs for the summer. I've tried feeding pollen patties in the early spring and maybe 1/3 of the time the bees actually eat them. With Goldenrod in the fall I see no need for fall pollen feeding and have some doubts about the necessity of spring pollen feeding. In this area Maple pollen starts fairly early and covers my car better than the bees on their first cleansing flights of the year!

I do not expect to get any surplus honey from first year hives - after that, whatever goes in the shallow supers is mine to keep. Right now I over winter in two deeps but I'm thinking I might go to three deep next year - I don't like worrying about the bees feed needs in the middle of tax season and leaving them with three deeps seems the best way to avoid the issue. Of course honey production will take a hit the year I do make the transition.

And as I've indicated all colonies get checked for adequate stores ahead of winter. Following Mike Palmer's advice I've gotten myself a package scale and will weigh each and every hive to determine how much feed they need. I dislike "emergency" winter time feeding - though I've made and used a candy board or two in the past. I enjoy the winter time vacation from the bees and I like to imagine that they are just as happy not to see me!


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## Bsweet (Apr 9, 2010)

Was wondering the same, I have a couple of small hives that came from a swarm and a split last month that I'm feeding to get population up for the fall flow(hope we have one) but the other hives as long as they have stores and the population isn't crashing I'm letting do their thing as I never count on a fall harvest for myself. Jim


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## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

I wish I were in a position to not feed. I have 6 hives and 1 produced 6 frames of surplus honey. The drought has been horrible here and the beeks who are refusing to feed are losing hives. We haven't had rain here in 6 weeks. I invested too much in my bees to have them die over $10 of sugar.

Feeding does have a time and a use. My opinion from a different perspective.


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

Your not alone, we have had 3/4 inch of rain since July 1. I am bad need of drawn deep comb and I am not going to let my split and main hive die. I will feed both syrup and pollen thru the fall


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

After trying all sorts of stuff with a struggling hive and finally paying $25 for a new queen, I'm not about to let them starve to death. They take a quart of syrup a day and have finally started showing eggs and larvae. Now if I can just get them through the winter.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Mr. B,
It's easy enough for you with your life time of experience to ask why every one is feeding so much. You probably know your bees and your yards. You know what works,how and when to feed. 
Feeding equals growth or at least an active participation in beekeeping. If your a new beekeeper you want to work hard to be successful its hard to sit around and watch them grow. Having one hive or even a couple dozen won't break most people's bank to feed extra. People don't quickly see negative results from feeding a lot.

How about the guys that want to go from two hives to total beekeeping domination of the east coast in two years? They are going to have to split and feed a little! Hahaha!

I think some rules are needed. Maybe you could start a thread in commercial... When do you feed and why? People with over 100 hives and 10 years experience have answers that work more often than you average hobbyist. As with anything beekeeping the answers will be so regional and contain so-many qualifiers that rather than a guide they will be in the category "something to think about".
I enjoy your post I wish you kept bees here in Florida
Regards
Mbeck. Aka.... Pouring it to them in Florida


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

I agree with Mbeck that we Newbies probably feed more often with less provocation than experienced beeks. Let's just chalk it up to the helicopter syndrome and learning experience.


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## beeG (Jun 18, 2011)

My bees have done nothing too. But I am sure I did not help them by following the queen exluder advise while I was also given the advise to feed using essental oils until they stopped eating, which the stopped eating never happened, and I fed them like mad through the small flow following the floods. Of cource that first hive of mine went syrup/honey bound and I almost lost them all to a swarm. I split from them adding more frames to draw out and stopped feeding until they looked to be starving during this drought. I am now feeding two hives and still no honey stores to speak of for the winter. The old hive starts to draw out a small super then stops then starts. It is quit agravating. these are minn hyg. And next year I am for sure wanting different genetics.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

As they say, ask 5 beeks the same question, get 10 different answers. All equally correct and incorrect. That's where "learning experience" comes in, I guess. Geography seems to make as much difference in what works as does genetics, judging from the sources of replies here.


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## Ron Mann (Jul 17, 2009)

I have just purchased two NUCs of Russian, a couple of weeks ago and have been feeding them, but they have not been taking alot of feed because of our bloom that has been wonderful this Aug., since we have had all this unseasonable rain fall.

It is there if they want it, there if they don't.

They know their needs more than I do.

I just keep my eye on their consumption, and supply it they want more.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Mark,

I have been on Beesource for several years and I noticed the number of "feed until they won't take it" posts this year too. I suspect that there are places in the US where a lot of feeding has been necessary, but I have had the feeling that people haven't been able to learn about their bees and flows because of all of the "helpful feeding" that seems to be going on. 

I understand the need to not let your bees die and not knowing how much honey they need in June, but feeding to get boxes of drawn comb for next year just seemed silly. The best drawn comb seems to be made on honey flows, where thousands of bees are feeding and bringing in feed not just a bunch on a feeder.

I sold a guy three nucs this spring in Portland. His 4 hives had died in the middle of April of this year. Most of the time around here, by the time you get to April they will have been growing spring bees for a while and your hive is safe from "winter loss". He asked me to look at his hives. I suspected that mites where probably the cause (and they probably were a factor) but the thing that struck me as different from my hives was the lack of laying space for the queen. I gave him 5 strong frames with a lot of capped brood in each nuc. I told him that these nucs were strong and we needed to build hives out of his deadouts. Finding deep frames with some space to lay was almost impossible. 

He had fed most of the year before and with the bees bringing in honey from an urban area I suspect that the queen started slowing down for winter by August or so. So the winter bees were just too old to make it through the winter. They certainly didn't starve and frankly didn't eat much over the winter, by looking at the frames.

I would challenge new beekeepers to go ahead and feed "till they stop" a hive or two I they feel that they need to, but try letting at least one hive just do their bee thing. Don't let them die (which means that you will need to make sure that they have at least a small amount of honey somewhere in the hive), but watch how your bees do in you location as the flows start and stop.

In 20 years I'm sure that I never given a hive (even new ones on foundation) more than 4 gallons of feed in a year (maybe 2 in the spring and 2 in the fall). Our winters and flows will be different from other places in the US, but we fall in an average honey yield per hive area (Oregon and Washington).

Again, we are not talking about people living in areas with an epic drought feeding to keep their bees alive.


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

When I notice a lack of honey around most of the brood frames, I'll feed if I can. In my area I find that effect takes place mostly in August, if I don't feed they still make enough honey to overwinter usually and sometimes some surplus- If I feed a gal or two during the month I make much more surplus honey. I do that because of my business which focuses more of the honey side for now, if I were into other aspects of the business perhaps I wouldn't feed as much.

It's a managment tool but I agree that you should know your bees and location and have a real reason to feed. I sure have seen plenty of sugar water bound brood area in hives that are constantly fed without monitoring.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Perhaps better decisions are made when the beekeeper can no longer afford to feed just to be doing something.
Time and money are resources, I can spend 15 minutes and $15.00 per hive any and every week I want to. I try not to, I want to manage effectively. My point is a couple of hours and a hundred here or there doesn't mean much to my quality of life. I'm guessing that Mr. B could not throw that amount of resources at his bees for more than a couple of weeks without going broke or crazy. 15 minute and $15.00 are small numbers applied to 350 hive that equals 87.5 hours and $5250.00. I'm not sure how many hives that he runs but those kind of # will force you to get it right.


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## PerennialAddict (May 28, 2011)

beedeetee said:


> I would challenge new beekeepers to go ahead and feed "till they stop" a hive or two I they feel that they need to, but try letting at least one hive just do their bee thing. Don't let them die (which means that you will need to make sure that they have at least a small amount of honey somewhere in the hive), but watch how your bees do in you location as the flows start and stop.


This sounds like a good idea. This is only my first year with 2 hives started with package bees .. and I have been advised by numerous local people to feed until I can put supers on. Refill as needed. Just these two hives have provided a great deal of variation in learning.

I would like to try this. I will need to get more hives. This year being new and having very little guidance and no experience - it would have been hard for me to do a good experiment even if I had enough hives to. I just wouldn't have known enough to make good enough observations. Maybe not even next year.

I am still absorbing so much info - there are so many things to learn (spring/summer/winter/pests/etc) and then different approaches to them all. 

It is a good thing to hear everyones thought on when and why they feed.


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## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

Maybe the ones posting here are overfeeding some (myself included). What I see more of though in our beekeepers club are bee-havers that don't want to put the $$ into feeding. I've been helping someone this year with two hives. One barely over-wintered last year with some emergency feeding because the keeper pulled their only super of honey and the other was a package started this year. About four weeks ago we did an inspection and I told him that he should start feeding both since our flows have been so light this year. He didn't do it and called me when he had 1000 dead bees on the landing board. We looked inside and the hive was bone dry - no brood, eggs or queen either! We checked on the other to get brood to transfer to the queenless hive and it wasn't much better. Very little stores and little brood to transfer. The queen had shutdown laying since there were little stores in the hive.

My thing is when you consider a package is $70 and a queen is $30 why wouldn't you spend ten bucks on sugar to save a hive?:scratch:

I bet for every one that overfeeds there is another that didn't and wonders why their hive died.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I encourage feeding for a reason, if that reason is because the bees really need it. I don't advocate letting colonies starve.

Maybe what I think I am seeing is due to the weather this year. I just wish people would relax and learn what their bees need and don't need, how and when to provide them what they need. Otherwise, maybe it's just me. No big deal. Thanks for the replies.


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## beeG (Jun 18, 2011)

Well, I was not born knowing  I at least took a bee class, and everything I did was from advise of said bee class. Which has given me a hard road with the genetics of bees I have, and the wonderful weather this year has given. In a way I am happier things did not go so perfect. Because we do learn faster by trying to rebound from negetive actions ,then we do by learning when everything goes perfect. I learned in my first year
1. Queen exluders are not for new hives drawing out new comb
2. How to sucessfully split a hive and what to expect from a virgin queen
3. What a honey bound hive looks like
4. that essental oils are not to be fed continulously
5. That it is real nice to have calm genetics. The package bees were psycho.
6. that plain sugar water syrup is not as appealing to the bees as syrup with essenstial oils which to me now is a plus.
7. how to checker board to get more frame drawn
8. what queen cells look like, and what a new born queen sounds like
9. That queen cups do not mean a swarm
10. I also learned that feeding artifical pollen patties is very beneficial to a honey bound hive. 

My bees have yet to make it through the winter. Which I am sure have alot more hard lessons for me. My goal was to at least keep this one package alive. Which is now two small hives. next year my goal is to not feed like I did this year and to obtain better genetics and take it from there.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I just wish people would relax and learn what their bees need and don't need, how and when to provide them what they need.


Exactly. A lot of us are learning.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Me too. Hopefully always. I hope I didn't seem judgemental. I'm just concerned that there are folks who are needlessly doing something they don't need to. If that isn't too redundant.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I've watched too many people around here start beehives and then have the starve out the first winter, so I fed until the package I installed had the second brood box drawn out. They slowed down taking the feed and we got plenty of rain, so I quit when I put a honey super on. They have been going great guns since, lots of honey in the super and they are now backfilling the top brood box.

I also checked every week or so the see what they were doing and storing, and watched for pollen coming in and general foraging activity. I would NOT recommend blind feeding any more than I would recommend not feeding at all without checking the hive, it's expensive to kill of a hive from starvation!

I've also noticed lots of "feeding til they stop" posts and also quite a few "my package swarmed, why" posts this first year I've been here.

My take on this whole subject is that one should look at what the bees are doing, especially for new beeks, and do what's needed to keep them healthy. Someone will answer any questions posted, no need to do any of this totally blind even if there isn't anyone handy to mentor.

There are no hard and fast answers, after all!

Peter


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

So what do people give as blanket advice to new beeks who might not recognize things like syrup being stored in the brood nest? Is there blanket advice that can be given, or is the subject too complex for simple sayings? Mark's sentiment of feed when there is a need, don't when there isn't gets the point across that the hives need to be inspected and conditions evaluated - is that too much to ask of new beeks? I'd like to hear from first year beeks about what your comfort level is in evaluating the needs of the hive.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

One should get into their hives regularly, especially new beekeepers, so they can access what is going on in their hives and to gain knowledge and comfort w/ handling bees and equipment.

W/ packages on new foundation or foundationless frames, one should feed until a flow starts, which can be seen by bees ignoring or not using provided feed/syrup. At that time I would take syrup feeders off.

Unless there is a real derth of nectar flow, as there seems to have been in some parts of the Nation, one shouldn't need to feed again until fall when combs may need filling up w/ supplemental food. Which one can tell by hefting a hive to see if it is heavy or not. 

Grab the back handhold of the bottom super and pull up on it. Assuming some strength, one should be able to lift a heavy hive a little, but not much. If one is able to flip the hive over w/ one hand, it's too light and needs feeding, assuming it is alive and healthy.

Be careful. I know a guy who used the heft test and since he couldn't budge the hives at all he assumed they were heavy enuf to winter. Turns out they were frozen down to the pad they were sitting on. Poor wintering there.

Of course there are cases when one may want to feed to produce more comb, such as our friend from MA has mentioned in a previous post. Nothing wrong w/ that. Especially if no honey is harvested from these colonies.

That's one of my primary concerns. What w/ the adulterated honey already on the market, the honey syrups, and the Honey Standard of Identity (SOI) being sought in so many States in an effort to protect the integrity of our Honey as a pure food, we need to be careful when and how much we feed our bees, so syrup doesn't get extracted along w/ the honey.

Just as we need to be careful about use of Chemicals such as Mite Controls and Medications we need to be wise and knowledgable about the use of corn syrup and sugar syrup.


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## Risky Beesness (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm not sure if it is the right thing to do or not, but I am feeding continuously since I installed my 1st two nucs in April. We are in an historic drought with absolutely nothing growing or blooming. I have received less than 4" rain since 1/1. All my hives are new. I checked them today and despite the extraordinary drought and incredible temperatures, all my hives are building comb and have larvae and capped brood. Although, they were a bit irritable. We have had 48 of the last 50 days over 100, with 105 being the new benchmark.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

> Too much feeding going on?


Yes

Langstroth once said that "The feeding of bees resembles the Noxious influences under which the children of the rich are reared." I tend to agree. I frequently hear more and more about people having bees for multiple seasons without good honey production... I also always hear that it is because the flow was poor... I tend to think it has more to do with lazy bees due to over feeding.

Every season I feed less and less. I now never feed a new package. I only feed light hives the first season, if they are not productive enough to winter the second season, they are culled. IMO if you have two hives started at the same time and one is hauling the honey in and the second is not, kill the seconds queen and combine.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I feed light hives when syrup is available after I get my hives to SC for the winter. Most of the ones I feed only get one gallon. If I had the feed and the time I would feed them twice.

Sometimes I feed them in February, a month before I see them again to start splitting.

If I can afford Pollen Substitute Pattys I buy them and install them when I feed the syrup.

If I have foundation to draw, I would feed, but not colonies which I plan to harvest honey from. Most of my comb is drawn in nuc boxes.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

All beekeeping is local, since the bees don't go that far and conditions can vary quite a bit over just a couple miles.

The accepted wisdom here is that since we cannot get package bees until the spring flow is slowing down (first of May, usually) we feed until the hive has drawn enough foundation to grow well. We usually don't have a significant dearth, but the flow does slow down quite a bit in June and July, and when we have a seriously dry summer like last year if you don't feed all summer you will have no bees come spring -- no rain locally from late May until early November. 

I suppose the real advice to new beekeepers is that here is no single program of feeding that will work for everyone or every situation. It is vital to inspect your hive or hives and see what is going on and respond as necessary. If there is little comb being drawn, little landing board activity, and no pollen coming in on a new package, if you don't feed it it will surely die this fall or winter. Takes bees to make bees. 

On the other hand, if your new package bees are building comb, hauling in pollen, and you have a full brood nest without feeding, there is no need to feed. You have to look at the combs and see.

Read books, talk to other beeks, use common sense. This year, anyone new to beekeeping in the drought area is having a very hard time -- it hasn't been this dry since before the Dust Bowl in the 1930's! Unless you are withing foraging distance of irrigated crops that produce nectar and pollen, the bees will be in bad shape. 

Peter


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I think an argument can be made that by feeding, we train our bees not to look as far for food. Having kept bees in VT for a number of years I did not have ferals around to teach me anything. Once we moved to KY and I started working with ferals, I quickly learned that a lot of ferals do just fine in seasons when my bees were needing to be fed. 

Just like breeding for mite resistance and temperament, you can breed for needing to be fed.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Every year I hear a lot of advice to "feed until they won't take it anymore" or "feed the whole year" for newbees with new packages. Every year I hear a lot of newbees with new packages that swarmed before they got two boxes drawn because they backfilled the brood nest and swarmed. All the natural feedback mechanisms for recruiting foragers, drawing comb ect. get bypassed when basically the "unloader" bees are just moving things from the feeder to the cells and they backfill the brood nest rather than draw new comb.

Most bees will not "stop taking it". A few will and people point to that as evidence that bees will "stop taking it". In my experience they rarely stop. They just keep storing it and then they end up swarming because the same sequence of events that sets off swarming happens and they get confused and swarm.

I'm all for feeding when you have a reason to. I do not agree with constant feeding of a package or any other colony.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Thanks MB. I read this far to see if anyone touched on that subject.
Walt


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## DUKPT (Apr 8, 2011)

I have fed from Day one. My new install was late June.
Forage for their own food?
This year, the high temperature for May barely rose to 50 degrees, maybe slightly above.
I still had Snow in my yard!
I am a first timer at this. Born in NH, I have never seen any Honey Bee's.
If foraging is so good, where the heck are they?
I live on Six Hundred plus acres of Woodlands, Wetlands, Lake. Never seen any Honey Bees.
A few Bumble bees, yellow Jackets and Wasps, that's about it.
Here in NH, we may need to offer all of the help that we can offer.
Next year I will cut back during whatever type of flow that is out there.
This year, I will be feeding them 1:1 until the temerature drops to low.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Where on earth _in Manchester_ do you live on 600 acres with no bee forage? I was also born in NH and always knew honeybees. Maple trees alone should have given you something.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

DUKPT said:


> I have fed from Day one. My new install was late June.
> Forage for their own food?
> This year, the high temperature for May barely rose to 50 degrees, maybe slightly above.
> I still had Snow in my yard!
> ...


Unless somebody near you has hives, you will not see any. They don't fare well as Ferals in the North East, I started messing with bees as a teenager in the NEK of Vermont... I have only ever found a few feral hives and they usually don't make it through a long cold New England winter on their own.

People frequently forget two very important things when it comes to honey bees. 1st they are not native to this country, 2nd they are domestic livestock and just like cows, sheep, goats etc, they need to be cared for. They can adapt to living on their own in some environments, but New England isn't conducive to that.


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## DUKPT (Apr 8, 2011)

I was born in Manchester. I live in Northwood now. I have several Maples close proximity to the property, along with a few Oaks and White Birches.
Plenty of Clover around as well.
Surrounded by over six hundred acres of Woodlands, Wetlands, and a lake only seventy five yards from my front door.
Never seen a honey bee on my property.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Glasses, maybe? LOL

I have cousins in Northwood, on Old Dump Road. (Thought it's getting gentrified and they may have changed the name ...)


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## DUKPT (Apr 8, 2011)

KelpticFest said:


> Glasses, maybe?


Awesome!
So, if I ask a few of my Cousins to move to Anchorage, it would guarantee that I would have plenty of native bees at my other home in Anchorage?
Thanks bro;


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

I don't understand the connection. I do know those cousins aren't beekeepers, though.


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## DUKPT (Apr 8, 2011)

KelpticFest said:


> I don't understand the connection.


Why did you post about your Cousins?
What does gentrified mean? Being from NH and not MA, I don't know what that word means. 
I tried to look it up, though, I can't locate my Glasses.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Only because my cousins live in Northwood, as you do. "Gentrified" = "gussied up"


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thank you for post #29 Michael B, and for asking the question in the first place Captain Sqkrck. Backfilling may explain my very early swarms back in January. I noticed the top of the brood frames went honey - pollen - honey - capped brood. The last patty I gave them may have been in excess...Eucalyptus was still in bloom in Southern California. I didn't think those bees were near enough to the trees (>4 miles) so I fed them. I've seen honey next to brood three times since then, all on hives that swarmed just before or soon after.

It seems that feeding should be done when there is no nectar flow, when there is undrawn foundation, or when buildup is halted by a sudden dearth of nectar. A frame or two of empty cells is not call for a feeding after it gets warm in the spring if the bees are flying out and the foragers are handing off to the house bees. I suspect that watching the pollen supply determines the feeding of patties. I do notice a very strong correlation between pollen gathering and honey production.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I have lived in 9 states in recent years from as far south as Florida and as far north as Fairbanks AK. Never seen any wild cows anywhere... Even been cited for not mowing my lawn. There was grass everywhere, but no cows


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## DUKPT (Apr 8, 2011)

No kidding...I haven't seen a June bug since I was a kid either. Plenty of green leaves though.
Maybe I live to close to the Power Lines?


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## Capricorn (Apr 20, 2009)

I appreciate the thread.. I think a lot of it is that there isn't (that I have found) a good description of when to feed and why. You see bits and pieces here and there, etc.. but I have yet to find a really really good resource about it. It is also hard to search for, since so many people talk about it, but little in depth is said. I spent a good amount of time trying to read up on feeding pollen or pollen sub, that is even harder to find good info on. I chose to feed after my main flow because I wanted a few supers drawn out. Is it the best way to accomplish what I want? In hind sight, maybe not, but hey, I learned from it, and as a newer beekeeper, I think that is the best I can do. Figure out what you think makes sense to you, try it, and learn from it.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Mark, thanks for starting this thread. It helps the new beeks get a feel for why beeks do what beeks do, re: feeding. I put the feed bag on 10 of my colonies two weeks ago. Had never done that before, but I did it because I lost one of my stronger colonies to starvation. And yet 10 miles away I'm stacking supers on 20 hives because they're packing it in! So, for the sake of the curious newbies, let's see if I can condense what has been said so far.

1. When you hive a package or new swarm, most of us will feed to help stimulate comb building and getting the colony set up into the first deep. Some will also give a pollen patty to help.
2. When installing the second deep brood box, I'll bring a couple of frames up from the first to bait the second. Depending on what is going on in the hive, and how they're bringing in nectar and how they've been taking the feed, I'll continue feeding. I'll taper off feeding as I see how the second box is drawing out, and how they're storing the feed.
3. IF LUCKY, I'll pull the feeder and add a surplus super. Not usual on a new hive.
4. As September approaches here in SE Missouri, I'll heft the hive. If light, I'll go in and check, and might have to supplement feed to get them ready for winter. 
5. By the end of September, I'll inspect the hive, give it the heft test, and IF I HAVE TO, I'll feed copiously so they get real heavy in two deep boxes, before it gets too cold. 
6. In my area, by the end of October they should be ready for winter. Then I can pull the feeders, kick back and relax. Sometimes the goldenrod flow gives them more honey, sometimes it doesn't.

Regarding established colonies:
1. As they come out of winter, heft test weekly, beginning mid-February here. Visual inspection when weather is warm enough, and heft test warrants visual inspection.
2. By mid-March, visual inspection, swarm control started, checkerboarding underway. If I did right back in the fall, the hives will not need any feed at all. (Fall 2010 I did it right. Did not have to feed any of my colonies unless I made splits. Until Aug. 1 and found the starved one.)
3. Be aware of the flow. Every time you go into the apiary, watch the landing board, see what's coming in. Do a heft test. If the colony seems light, LOOK! The flow may or may not fail. You cannot count on last year's experience to determine your behavior this year. 
4. After the flow, definitely heft test each hive, visual inspection better. Be aware of summer conditions. A weekly heft-test will tell you if trouble may be developing. If light, do they need feed? If heavy, do they need another super? 
5. I have learned never to say never. I have never fed an established colony after the flow started, until it MIGHT need it in the fall. Until this year. This year I got NO honey from two of my apiaries that produced last year, and I'm having to feed them to keep them alive. Another apiary did well, and I'll get a surplus off them, and won't need to feed. My last apiary is still packing it in, and will produce a great crop. Go figure. 

I hope this time-line is a help to the newbies. Anything any oldtimers want to add?
Regards,
Steven


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## saltcreep (Apr 25, 2011)

Thank you for writing all that out Steven, that is some awesome information.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

StevenG said:


> Mark, thanks for starting this thread. It helps the new beeks get a feel for why beeks do what beeks do, re: feeding.
> Regards,
> Steven


You are welcome. My main point is, know why you are doing what you are doing. Don't feed because you think something is needing done when it isn't. such as, feedingt between flows.

I think you and others have answered some of those when and why questions quite well. so, Thank You.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

The problem for us newcomers is evaluating what we see. I have one strong hive, one weak one. The strong one has 2 supers of honey on it, while the weak one was starving until I started feeding. Yet I see more coming and going from the weak hive that has a full feeder inside, than from the strong one that's supposed to be being industrious. Just what does this mean? (The weak hive's single entrance is very small, and there are no battles going on outside, so I doubt they're being robbed.)


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

spunky said:


> I am not going to let my split and main hive die. I will feed both syrup and pollen thru the fall


My situation exactly. And I started with a hive with almost no stores 3 weeks ago. We've had 3/4 inch of rain in August, maybe half an inch in July, none in June, an inch or so in May, and none in April. Our drought actually started last September. I'm sure my NOT feeding in July contributed to my losing the first hive, (in addition to total ignorance about bees and their pests)


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

StevenG said:


> I hope this time-line is a help to the newbies. Anything any oldtimers want to add?
> Regards,
> Steven


How about subtract?
#1 I subtract. A package just came off of citrus most likely and was shipped with more then their weight in syrup, they need no feed to start drawing comb. I want them to focus on two things, collecting forage and drawing comb, I don't like to distract them with syrup unless they first show they are having trouble with the collecting and drawing. 

#3. Never place a super on a hive that has been fed syrup unless you plan to leave it with them over the winter or redistribute it among other hives, or you don't mind adulterated honey. They will move the syrup that was fed and stored and mix it with the honey they are placing in the super. They can demonstrate this ability if you place a full super in between the brood boxes, they will quickly empty space from the super to rejoin the brood nest. 

Otherwise I think it is a pretty good list.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

KelpticFest said:


> The problem for us newcomers is evaluating what we see. I have one strong hive, one weak one. The strong one has 2 supers of honey on it, while the weak one was starving until I started feeding. * Yet I see more coming and going from the weak hive that has a full feeder inside*, than from the strong one that's supposed to be being industrious. Just what does this mean? (The weak hive's single entrance is very small, and there are no battles going on outside, so* I doubt they're being robbed*.)


I would not doubt robbing. They may not be defensive enough in nature to guard the front door and the fact that you indicate that a weak hive has more traffic would make me pretty positive robbing is occuring.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Well, neither one is in any sort of a frenzy. And this is the cranky hive, who have settled down and quit being cranky. Maybe they're ALL robbers, but Evangeline-the-queen's in there, as are eggs and larvae. Poor ladies - wish I knew better how to help them out.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Gypsi said:


> I'm sure my NOT feeding in July contributed to my losing the first hive, (in addition to total ignorance about bees and their pests)


One of these statements may not be true. If you truly don't know anything about bees and their pests, what convinces you so strongly that lack of feeding them contributed to their demise?


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

This has been a good thread to read through. Things that I'd add as a new beekeeper this year is when it's too late to feed, how much, and how to. There are several different ways to feed, but depending upon what your situation is, and the time of year some may not work. I understand that if the syrup goes under 50 degrees then they'll stop taking it. For me this year I fed a swarm that I caught after a week or so and I didn't see anything in the comb. So I fed for a couple weeks until I saw some capped in the cells. Now they are the only hive (out of 3) I'm not concerned with about having stores to get through the winter. I hived them July 4th weekend and fed them for a couple weeks maby a gallon or so, then nothing since then. It has been helpful to know when to feed for sure. Experienced beeks are a great blessing!!!! MB I read your post and that's great info. I actually found it about a week or so back on your site and was helped by it. Mark you also I've been helped by including this thread. I greatly appreciate you all "bearing with" those of us new beeks!!!! :applause:


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I think there is a lot of talk and information out there that makes beekeepers feel like they should always be doing something "for" the bees; that the bees can always be improved somehow, or they can be made to be more productive, or healthier than they are right now.

I haven't fed any syrup this year, and I must say it's hard not to. So many voices talking about feeding - it seems risky not to. I offered honey at the end of the season, but it got too cold at night and solidified, and they weren't taking much of it. So I took it away.

The hives seem heavy enough, but there's always that pressure to just give a little more...

I feel like it's probably better to just be watchful and ready to feed in the spring when they are active - and if they seem to be lacking then. From what I understand, they use most of the food in the early spring anyway.

Adam


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Brother Adam wrote that a good colony can winter on 6 lbs of honey. In his search for stock he tried American Italian stock and stated that they were useless for his means because they were bred for commercial pollination and consumed far to much stores in the winter.


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## Nantom670 (Jul 29, 2011)

Being new to the idea of raising bees, I just read this statement and wondered if this is true, how long would someone have to stop feeding in order to get the real honey sealed in the combs? Here is the statement: *If you have fed your bees while you had honey supers on then what you have isn’t considered to be honey fit for human consumption. * Thanks for your input.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

The main thing is don't have the honey supers on the hive at the same time as a feeder. There isn't a reason to expect surplus honey (honey super) at the same time you are trying to keep them from starving (feeder). I'm pretty sure I have never had supers on within a couple of weeks of taking the feeders away.


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## Nantom670 (Jul 29, 2011)

beedeetee said:


> The main thing is don't have the honey supers on the hive at the same time as a feeder. There isn't a reason to expect surplus honey (honey super) at the same time you are trying to keep them from starving (feeder). I'm pretty sure I have never had supers on within a couple of weeks of taking the feeders away.


Thanks for your reply. I hear from a lot of people that they feed as long as the bees keep taking in the sugar water and when I saw that statement that I posted above I asked someone that feeds all the time and they said it wouldn't hurt anything because the bees did not place sugar water mix into the honey cells. Thanks again.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Great thread. I got thrown into beekeeping a few months ago when my girlfriend mentioned that the beehive at the back of her orchard hadn't been tended to by the man who put it there all summer. So, I read a few books, put on a veil and dove right in. Heavy mite drop. Treated with Api Life Var. Big mite drop. So far so good. The top deep (two deep hive) had basically nothing in it. A few cells on the very bottom with honey but other than that it was all drawn comb with nothing in it for 8 frames. The other two frames were bare. I read some more and put a top feeder on. The bees seemed to recover and fill out the second deep. Most of it is now capped honey. I think I did the right thing as I am sure they wouldn't have made it through the winter without it. Today I went to put a candy board on it and the mite board was loaded again. Made the decision, since we have another forecasted week on warmer temps, to treat with Mite Away II pads that a friend had in his garage. Will let those go as long as possible till the temps don't agree and will go back to the candy board and my insulated hive top invention. Is this the right thing to do? I have no idea but it feels like I am doing what is right. The hive seems to have enough stores but for a few bucks the candy board seems just like insurance to me.

After someone seeing me wearing the veil I get a guy down the street asking for advice. Installed package bees in June. Basically done nothing since. Asks if I can take a look at them. He has a garage full of all the "gear" and I inform him that I am not an expert but will take a look. Two deeps. Top one is completely empty except for drawn comb. I pull it off and replace it with a few sticks, a queen excluder, 20 pounds of fondant and a shallow super to cover it all. Took a peek in today and they have eaten almost a third of it already. Starving bees is my impression. Been a real bad year here in Vermont with all the rain.

Third hive I watch over now is a basically feral hive that nobody took care of for five years. Three deeps tall. Top deep has no frames but full of wild comb. Hive is HEAVY which I learned when I moved it. I threw a couple of sugar cakes in top as "insurance" but feel these bees have enough to survive. 

So, back to the topic. I feel I can determine when a hive is under stress and help them. Did I want to put Mite Away on my girlfriends hive? Hell no but the chance of them making it through winter was likely zero so why not try. I started this late in the season so I had to cram in a lot of learning before the really cod weather hit. Will they all survive? Doubtful. But in the end I will have learned more and hopefully I will be able to reduce or eliminate drastic measures in the future.

I will check on all these hives as weather permits and replace candy boards and fondant as needed. I feel if I can get through this first winter as a newbie I can move forward and be more in sync with the bees and only provide help when they are stressed. I feel it is best to let them do what they do best with as little intervention as possible from my end but I won't knowingly let a hive die if I can help it in some small way.


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