# Questions for the Canuck prairie / peace river folks



## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

grozzie2 said:


> A little potential market research here today. Back to the same old subject, spring replacement bees for the folks in the colder parts of our country.
> 
> I've only got 4 of these this year, so, this is not about what can be done now, but I am interested in feedback on this stuff. Sun came out for a bit earlier today, and I was curious how things are shaping up in the yard. I popped open the nucs a couple weeks back when the weather started to warm up a bit, pulled an empty frame out of the side, and put in a feeder. They all got half a patty, and a gallon of syrup. These are nucs I started with 2 frames of bees and a cell around June 1 last year, left them to winter in 2 high stacks of 5, which they built out over the summer. They are all still in the top box, but starting to use the bottom box now for pollen and nectar, no brood down there yet.
> 
> ...


I am pretty sure you could sell as many 4 frame Nucs as you could produce for ~$150 a piece as long as they showed up before June 1st (May 15th is better May 1st is optimal). I have spoken to many suppliers and they are all sold out and were last December already.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

JodieToadie said:


> I am pretty sure you could sell as many 4 frame Nucs as you could produce for ~$150 a piece as long as they showed up before June 1st (May 15th is better May 1st is optimal).


That is fascinating feedback, thank you. Your area in particular is VERY interesting to me, no need to cross a provincial boundary to get there. I've had april deliver timeframes in my mind, thought that May would be getting to late for folks up there.

But hey, that's why I'm asking. I've got a lot to learn yet.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

As long as I have them, there are no issues with selling them. Keep in mind the more of them, the greater the opportunity you have to sell them. I mean that no commercial beekeeper is going to go to the trouble of getting to Vancouver Island for 50 nucs. If you have 500 then some people might take them all or 2 guys take them all. They might think it is worth their trouble to make it over there.

Jean-Marc


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

A potential market for earlier nuc sales could be to those Alberta beekeepers that winter their hives in B.C.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

jean-marc said:


> I mean that no commercial beekeeper is going to go to the trouble of getting to Vancouver Island for 50 nucs.


Funny how things work sometimes. The liability insurance for my business has a clause that specifically excludes customers on the property. It is cheaper for me to buy 3 tanks of gas and a ferry ticket, than to take that rider out of our insurance, just due to the nature of my business. Add to that, the kids bought a house in Dawson Creek this week, so, now it's pretty much cast in stone. For the next few years, at least one of our get-a-way trips will take us thru the Peace River country, my wife will make sure of that, she wants to go visit the kids.

I may as well schedule that visit for early May, hook a trailer up behind the camper van, and pull a hundred nucs along for the ride. Turns into a win-win all around. Visit the kids in early May, I get a happy wife. I'm sure that folks may not think it's worth the drive for small lots, some will re-think if that small lot is delivered to the door.

Time will tell, we will see where we end up. But, going to have a lot more than just 4 when fall rolls around. Will be fun to see if we can have a hundred survivors in the spring a couple years from now.


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

If you deliver in May you would find buyers across the prairies be it 1 or 1001. Give it a go and I am sure you will be rewarded.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

One thing that I would suggest, is to get the provincial inspector to inspect prior to making the trip.
Luke


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

If delivered that will undoubtedly open the doors to a market.

Jean-Marc


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

Ok, another question selling overwintered nucs. Are those beeks in the priaries alright with buying a nuc that has a queen goin into her second year? Brother adam talks about the queen being at her best in the second year. a queen bred in the summer before and maintaining a 4 frame nuc isn't going to wear out obviously. another up side is that the queens are tested tried and true. I would think that nuc buyers would rather have a local bred queen of good genetics and going into the second year than over seas queens just introed with undetermined qualities. What say you?


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

chillardbee said:


> Ok, another question selling overwintered nucs. Are those beeks in the priaries alright with buying a nuc that has a queen goin into her second year? Brother adam talks about the queen being at her best in the second year. a queen bred in the summer before and maintaining a 4 frame nuc isn't going to wear out obviously. another up side is that the queens are tested tried and true. I would think that nuc buyers would rather have a local bred queen of good genetics and going into the second year than over seas queens just introed with undetermined qualities. What say you?


As long as she is laying good most won't care. I see we have bigger concerns about the border possibly opening to package bees from the US. That could drastically change the landscape for nuc production.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

JodieToadie said:


> As long as she is laying good most won't care. I see we have bigger concerns about the border possibly opening to package bees from the US. That could drastically change the landscape for nuc production.


For dollars worth, I would think that the nuc would be the winner. price wise, nucs and packages are almost on par, maybe nucs are a bit more but the percentage of packages the don't turn out versus the near 100% turn out of nucs is a good incentive for beeks to buy local nucs. I think local overwintered nucs would be a lot less hassel for canadian buyers, don't you? Not to mention the shotty queens that come along with the packages amongst the other things that can go wrong with packages like nosema induced supercedure, ect.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

chillardbee said:


> For dollars worth, I would think that the nuc would be the winner. price wise, nucs and packages are almost on par, maybe nucs are a bit more but the percentage of packages the don't turn out versus the near 100% turn out of nucs is a good incentive for beeks to buy local nucs. I think local overwintered nucs would be a lot less hassel for canadian buyers, don't you? Not to mention the shotty queens that come along with the packages amongst the other things that can go wrong with packages like nosema induced supercedure, ect.


Hey Will, (You been around a long time as I recall, I recognize the name but don't remember if you are the Sr. or the Jr. but as I recall it was a father son operation?)
The concern I have with packages vs. nucs is timing and price. Up here in the Peace Region I can get a package of bees 1kg on May 1st (even earlier if I want) from New Zealand. You are right I pay the same price or more than a nuc. But typically some of the nuc suppliers want to sell nucs at the end of May. By that time the nuc is even with the package. 
My concern would be if the US border was opened to packages I could see that a package would have distinct advantages. I could purchase a 4lb package with an extra queen for around $120 from the US vs. the $150 for a nuc or $165 for a 2lb package from New Zealand. Why would I want the effort to even try to winter a hive or buy a nuc if I could fill my hive for $60 each? Since it isn't worth wintering I could care less about disease or performance other than honey production. I have a concern that we would go back to the 1970's when we all gassed our bees at the end of the season and those raising bees for sale would be out of business. Here is the link to the recent discussion in the Canadian Senate. http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/sen/committee/412\AGFO/51195-E.HTM


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

JT, I'm the Jr. my father hasn't been in it for 12 years now.

I thought of the same thing when I heard about the possibility of the border opening. for those folks up north, you could see those glory days restored. I wonder how many of the old beeks from those days are still running bees that haven't either gone out of business or passed away, it's been a long time, 30 years or so, i think.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Following up a bit.

The colony shown in the first picture went into a 10 frame box 3 weeks ago, took it out of the 2 high 5, and into a 10 frame single. Looked in today, they are on 9 frames now, 7 of which have capped brood on them. But I've noticed an interesting difference between the colonies that wintered in 5 frame 2 high, vs those that wintered in 10 frame gear.

The colonies that wintered in 10 frame gear, have all got some brood frames now, that are wall to wall capped brood, and stores frames that are wall to wall nectar and pollen. Deep frame, capped brood to within an inch or so of the ends, and within a few cells of the top/bottom. Those that wintered in 5 frame deeps, all have a different pattern in them. It's a 9 inch circle brood patch centered on the frame, with nectar and pollen outside of that on the same frame. Basically it extends from top to bottom of the frame, circle around the center, then stores outside of that area, but it's consistent across all the frames, whereas those in 10 frame boxes have wall to wall in the center, then much smaller brood patches near the outer edge.

Which brings my question. If you are buying nucs, what do you expect to see in them? I know the casual comments all say '3 frames of brood and a frame of stores', but, that's an ideal world where bees dont mix things up. Here in the real world, they do it differently, and actually put everything on the same frame in a lot of cases.

If you bought a nuc, and its 4 of the frames with the big circle of brood in the center, stores outside of that, all the frames covered with bees, would you call that a good nuc, or would you feel short-changed ? Call it 3 of those frames are capped, and one of them is open larvae. Outside of the brood patch, plenty of stores to keep them for a couple days in transit after closing up the boxes.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

I consider a solid pattern on 2/3 of the cells in the frame, a full frame of brood. Of course they can be larger, but if I got 3 of those plus a frame of feed covered in bees, that would be worth $150-175 to me.
Luke


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Yet another dumb question. Is there any reason to prefer one specific type of frame over another when building nucs with the intent of bringing them north in the spring ? I'm not really fond of the process of sticking together wooden frames, fighting with foundation and wires etc. Just seems so much more efficient to take plastic out of the box, and stick in the hive. Plastic seems like it will stand up to hauling a distance much better too.

Is there a good reason to use anything other than Mann Lake PF-100 frames ? Would you as a buyer find plastic frames disagreeable, assuming they are drawn and have appropriate brood etc in the comb ?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Although I do not buy nucs, plastic foundation or frames would be a deal breaker. We inherited about 2000 frames with plastic foundation from around 1992. They need to be rotated out. How do you dispose of them? Wood(into heat), Wax and steel recycles. To us they are a liability, and the bees avoid them.

Crazy Roland


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

grozzie2 said:


> Yet another dumb question. Is there any reason to prefer one specific type of frame over another when building nucs with the intent of bringing them north in the spring ? I'm not really fond of the process of sticking together wooden frames, fighting with foundation and wires etc. Just seems so much more efficient to take plastic out of the box, and stick in the hive. Plastic seems like it will stand up to hauling a distance much better too.
> 
> Is there a good reason to use anything other than Mann Lake PF-100 frames ? Would you as a buyer find plastic frames disagreeable, assuming they are drawn and have appropriate brood etc in the comb ?


Typically it is dealers' choice. No one buying nucs in Canada is too picky. Peirco is quick and dirty and costs less than or equal to a wood frame. They stand up way better to bear attacks. Usually the guy selling the nucs supplies his old frames as a way of rotating their old frames out of their own operation. In a bad year beekeepers can't be selective and will take whatever you give them. 

Personally I love Peirco. They cost the same as unassembled, stand up better to bear attacks and mice, can get crushed going through a cowan uncapper sideways and can still be put back in the hive if necessary, and I have commited no time to building them so I don't care if they get wrecked. The value of the wax on a fram is nearly zilch anyway so throw them in a landfill for all I care.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

To give you another perspective, I would only buy plastic frames as a last resort. I don't like flimsy they are when working with them in the brood chamber or the extracting line. Personally I prefer wood frame with plastic foundation.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

So, this project took a large leap forward over the last week. When we bought the new place, the back acre was a wasteland, same story as many places in rural BC. The back half was logged some 15 years ago, and the revenue from the logs paid to build the house. They just piled the brush / scraps on the stumps, and didn't even get around to burning the piles. It was left to grow wild after that. When we bought, the back half was a detriment, not a value. In January I got the first excavator in, and we did the heavy work of the cleanup. Turns out the piles on the stumps were nicely composted, so that part wasn't as bad as we expected. A month ago it was finally dry enough to get the small excavator in, clean up the grade a bit and get drainage under control with a few ditches along the edges. This week the fencing folks got going, we pulled out the old dilapidated fence along the west side that was falling apart, and put in a proper deer / bear fence all around. Got a rockhound on a bobcat in to pick out the worst of the rocks / roots and finish the grade. And this is what it looked like on Thursday nite.



On Friday, after the folks doing fences got done stringing barb above the deer wire, we took some of the old posts from the old fence, and used the tractor with fencepost pounder to put those posts down for hive stands. Once they are cut to height and I put the 4x4's on, I'll have stands in place for 50 nucs, and space for a lot more. After dinner last nite, we put the seed down and ran a drag over the whole thing to work it in just a bit. Rain in the forecast for Sunday, should have clover coming up before to long.

This is still a new area for us, so I've got technology working to help us understand the flows in this spot now too. Hive on the scale says, things are starting to perk up in that department.

http://www.rozeware.com/hives

My first queens for this year are in the mating nucs, and all of the colonies we got thru winter have 3 deeps with brood now. I should be able to split them 3 ways with fresh queens before the blackberries start to bloom.

The goal is a hundred colonies for the winter, wont reach it this year, but the infrastructure is now all in place. It's been a bit of a job to get here, but when we bought the place, we both agreed on one thing. All of the 'heavy lifting' to get the property into shape would be done in the first year, not going to let it drag out into a multi year project that never seems to get finished. The hard work is now done, the fun part is yet to come.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

looks good, perfect wintering yard!


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Good idea to get the property into shape. You spent a pretty penny acquiring it... now just a few more and you can use the place for years to come with one of its' intended purposes. Hmmm makes me think I ought to get myself a place too.

Jean-Marc


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