# Oxalic acid treatment



## topbee (Mar 17, 2004)

I realize the question has been brought up, but I would like to know the following:

1. Which is the best way to treat with the acid, i.e. trickling, spraying or vapor?
2. How do I make an evaporizer?
3. Where do I buy the acid?
4. Direction of using the acid on my bees.

I can't wait any longer for a solution to be offered. I have tried apistan, checkmite and fgmo and I have been trying to maintain the hives that are trying to battle the mites on their own. But, with working to increase my colonies because of pollination contracts and honey orders, I can't afford to let them crash. Now, I am having positive results with the fgmo, but I think the results from what I have read are better with the acid. I would like to treat with the acid this spring prior to putting the supers on. Needing input!

Thanks,

Tony


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Personally, I think the only viable long term solution is to get back to natural cell, but here's the Oxalic info:

>1. Which is the best way to treat with the acid, i.e. trickling, spraying or vapor?

IMO vapor.

>2. How do I make an evaporizer?

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/oxalic-acid-vaporizer/ 


>3. Where do I buy the acid?

I got mine in the paint department as wood bleach at the local Ace Hardware store.


>4. Direction of using the acid on my bees.

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000303


Other info:

http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000280.html
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000126.html
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000468-2.html
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000468.html
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000298.html
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000469.html
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000468-3.html
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000058.html
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000449.html
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000103.html
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000293.html


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## Lively Bee's (Dec 9, 2004)

I made mine like the one in the center and it works great I used 3/4 pipe that is what I had on hand.


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## topbee (Mar 17, 2004)

Which middle one are you referring to? I am considering using the entrance one and making me a handle with a width of sponge just to block the entrance. This way I am not stuffing the entrance with paper towels each time. I figure I have enough metal stock laying around I can cut a piece the width of the entrance minus the area it will take to put in the evaporator, weld a 2 or 3 foot handle on it and attach the sponge. It would be a T shape with a sponge attached to the end. What do you think?

Tony


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I went with the top. I don't want to be all bent over holding the torch. Also, it's nice to be able to move quickly if the wind shifts. I always do it with a smoker lit so I can see the wind drift. ALWAYS stand up wind.


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

I believe that vaporizaion is the best way to treat the beehive.

Poroblem is there is'nt an effective and efficient way to treat behives on a commercial scale yet. There are several Commercial Evaporators that are being developed and being used. Picures of two of them can be found at www.honeybeeworld.com This fall there should be an evaporator available that the commercial beekeeper can use to efficiently and quicky fumigate hundreds of beehives perday. 

Oxalic acid can be purchased from companies such as "Univar" here in Canada. I believe aprox $80.00 for 25 kilos.

From what I understand Oxalic should be applied in a broodless hive situation in cool temps around 5 - 15 celcius for max effectiveness. 

I also belive that the acid vapor should be forced into the hive with some air for better penetration of the bee cluster.

I hope this helps


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Welcome TerryGr
I don't think Oxalic Acid is registered in Canada .
check http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca 

Factssheets #004

Terry


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Sorry TerryGr


http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/apiculture/factsheets/...


Terry


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

The Canadian Honey Council submited the application for the registration of oxcalic acid. If everything goes smoothly we could see the product registered with in the year.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Terry 

After several year experiences and testing different kind of vaporizers I tell you what happen with your idea. 

Take a plastic container or garbage can, drill a whole and try to force air in. Do you think this will work? It is not possible, only if the container can expand like a balloon, otherwise you would blow the top away. 

This will happen with your hive, force air in and you blow the cover away. If you tight everything up the overpressure kills your bees instantly. Remember a beehive is not a pressure cooker.

Have you ever worked with OA? I worked with a Vaporizer and air pump before I used the electric unit. As soon as you start blowing acid in the hive air must escape through some cracks the hive has. In no time you can see acid fog coming out. For a right treatment you will need the acid inside the hive.

As soon as you heat up an electric Vaporizer the cluster opens up a little bit and acid fog covers enough bees.
The outside bees must go inside the cluster to warm up and that is the way OA reached all bees in less than a day.


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

I appreciate the comment. 

I have not used oxalic yet, but have been playing with different vaporizers, and doing a lot of research. We need a vaporizer that can treat multiple hives (500 hives per day) with efficiancy.

The Electric units which slide into the bottom of the hive seem like an extremely inefficient way to treat beehives. 

There has got to be a better way!

Bee hives are not that tight. Most have multible cracks between supers, top entrances for winter ventilation, Canvas inercovers with telescoping lids. We do not use lids during the winter, just an insulated tarp wrapped over and around 4 hives with a top entrance


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Terry how efficient must be your vaporizer 150%? 

With several eclectic vaporizers connected in line you can treat 500 hives in a few hours. Make your own calculation how long time do you need working with 20 electric units. One treatment takes you 70 seconds that mean 20 colonies in less than two minutes heating time.
I guarantee you; it takes you longer to refill the vaporizer than the acid evaporates.

Here a website about your efficiencies. The result during the brood free time is better than Apistran and Perizin (chumafos) 
http://www.mellifera.de/engl2.htm

What are you looking for?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It seems like less work to me even with the homemade one than opening up, moving a box to get to the brood nest, putting in strips, putting the box back on. Coming back and removing the top box, removing the strips and replacing the box. I'm not sure why anyone doesn't think that vaporizing is less work. It might take a little longer, with the homemade one, but I would guess that with several of the commercial ones going simultaneously it would go at least as fast.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

hello,

i'm not a comercial beekeeper, just a hobyist. i've got 10 hives and i'm beginning my 5th year at beekeeping. i found this site this past weekend and i'm glad i did.

the oxalic acid treatments got my attention and i'd like to try it this spring, but i'm not excited about drilling 3/4" holes in the back of my hives (i figure, if i have to do it, the best place would be behind the lowest hivebody, somewhere in the middle, is that right?).

what should i cover the hole with when i'm not using it (duct tape, plug, etc.)?

i've heard about commercial vaporizers, do i have to drill holes in order to use those? forgive me if i'm asking questions that have been asked a million times over (i'm new here).

i use screen bottom boards. does this matter?

also, before i heard about this kind of treatment i was going to try essential oils (a bottle of HBH for entrance feeding and some peppermint for patties) is this a good idea for back-up in case OA doesn't work.

look forward to hearing from somebody,
buford


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>the oxalic acid treatments got my attention and i'd like to try it this spring, but i'm not excited about drilling 3/4" holes in the back of my hives

I just took an old shallow super and drilled it and glued a piece of 1/4" plywood on top for a lid. I put that on top to treat and then replace the lid to the hive.

You can get by without the plywood on top and just use the outer cover instead, but I was trying to seal it up well. I made the brass pipe one and a 1/2" drill bit with a little bit of a reaming out worked just right for the hole.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

thanks michael, so i can treat from the top down instead of the bottom up? great.


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## franc (Jan 7, 2003)

I made an entrance type but used a T fitting at the end so i can load it from the top.Basicly all you need is a copper pipe to make the entrance type.Im working on a electric one using a element in an insulator its a little more difficult to make.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

As with most of beekeeping you ask 10 people and you'll get 11 opinions.

As far as the easiest and fastest method of OA treatment, it is trickling. You mix a solution of OA and sugar and sprinkle over the bees and your done. No torches, pipes, heating pans, batteries, plugging up holes, etc.

As with all OA treatments they work best without brood as all of the mites are all exposed.

I have a few reports and studies done in Europe on the subject. 

The studies I have show no more adverse effect of trickling than with other OA treatments.
One of these studies:
www.apis.admin.ch/en/krankheiten/docs/saeuren/osbienenvertraeglichkeit2003_e.pdf


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Take a plastic container or garbage can, drill a whole and try to force air in. Do you think this will work? It is not possible, only if the container can expand like a balloon, otherwise you would blow the top away. 

Hives are not wrapped up that tight here. We cant or all the hives would either die of suffication, or due to inadequate moisture removal. Usuall my bottom enterences are exposed, upper enterences, and inner cover hole into my wrap. 

>>how long time do you need working with 20 electric units

how many men are you hireing. How can you possible handle 20 electric vapourizors at 70 second intervals?

>>OA treatment, it is trickling. You mix a solution of OA and sugar and sprinkle over the bees and your done

Yes, I have seen the studdies also and it apperars to be the best. But they didnt compare it to vaporizors though. I would think vapourizing would be easier on the bees, which ever method you choose.

Axttmann, why so deffensive? Terry is just an innovator as yourself. YOu should give him credit for following the same mind







set as you,..


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Ian, the link I gave above does a comparison study between vaporization, spray, and trickle methods of OA treatment. 
They found that they all worked about the same. The Swiss study concluded that for ease of treatment and speed, the trickle method is the way to go.


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

In the fall It is crucial that we feed sugar, medicate and wrap our beehives as soon as possible after the last box of honey is taken after the killing frost. The weather is to unpredictable to fool around. it is possible to get 1 foot of snow in september here. temps of -20 celcius in October.

Trickling beehives while feeding sugar during late september might not be as effective because the bees are still brooded up. 

We could trickle oxalic during October during an Indian Summer but the number of hours during the day when it is warm enough is not large, and our first priority is to wrap beehives.

What effect does tickling bees with cold oxalic liquid during a cold morning or evening have of on the bees? 

Most hives are 2 supers tall, the bees are mostly in the bottom box due to food stores, we would have to split the hive in half to trickle properly for the most effectiveness. Beekeepers that run singles for winter trickling would be fast.

With the vaporization method we can treat after the winter wraps are on the hive without disturbing the winter clusters

Any thoughts?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>With the vaporization method we can treat after the winter wraps are on the hive without disturbing the winter clusters


That is what is appeals me to the OA treatment. 
How late, or how cold can you successfully treat the hives without harming the colony?


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Ian, This site has alot of info on OA and other treatments.

www.apis.admin.ch/en/krankheiten/oxal.php


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

i've got another question (probably asked by several others). when using the homemade vent vaporizer, is there an alternative way to heat the pipe (other than using a blow torch).

as i mentioned before, i only have a handful of hives and am not really pressed for time when working them.

p.s. really glad this page exists! y'all are a BIG help!!

thanks


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

I use an 120 volt electric nozzel heater. 

http://www.watlow.com/literature/specsheets/files/heaters/stlhv0102.pdf

Only 100 watts


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

> i'm not excited about drilling 3/4" holes in the back of my hives


When you make your crack pipe use a 12" long 8 mm dia. brass tube for the portion that enters the hive. Hobby shops sell it. Insert this tube through the entrance and it will end at the beginning of the cluster. The heat causes the OA vapor to rise


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

thanks for the link. it looks like a blow torch is my best bet (my hives are a good distance from an electrical outlet).

just a couple more questions (i hope that's all) before i try this.

when placing the evaporator-supper above the hive, is it necessary to remove the inner cover (this is probably a very stupid question) or is the hole in the inner cover big enough for the treatment to be effective?

also, it was said the hive should be closed down for ten minutes after the treatment. does that mean that i have to leave the evaporator-super on for ten minutes bofore going to the next hive (or pulling the evaporator unit out of the super and plugging the hole right away) or can i just pull the whole super off quickly and close the hive for ten minutes? this also may be a dumb question, but i want to get this right.


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

buford--there is no such thing as dumb question when it concerns beekeeping.


Terry


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

If you go from the top, remove the inner cover to get better circulation.

If you ar quick about it, you should be able to remove the OA box and put the covers on without loosing too much vapor. Maybe.

I tried the top box/crack pipe evaporizer but did not like the results of the crack pipe and went to the electric, it works MUCH better. I listed my plex boxes with pipes in the for sale section but never sold them, guess I'll make another use for them someday.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

i visited your web page. the electric one your talking about is the one you have hooked up to the car battery, right?

when i first started looking at the evaporator OA approach it looked pretty simple. but it's starting to look alittle complicated.

naturally, i want it to work well (you said your non-electric one didn't), but i need to settle on something soon because springs almost here.

there was a topic awhile back on vaporaizers and i think there were links to two different kinds (a cheap "flimsy" one and a more expensive durable one), but i can't find that site.

thanks again


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

o.k. let me see if i've got this right.

if i want to make an evaporator that goes on top of the hive, then it would be a good idea to make a few (so as not to have to spend an hour and a half treating 10 hives with only one evaporator).

but if i make one that goes through the entrance, then maybe i only need to make the pipe (my entrance reducers are still in the hives, set at the smallest opening).

therefore, how tight does the pipe need to fit if going through the entrance reducer?

will the vapor come right out the screen boards? do i need to plug the entrance for 10 minutes (this sounds wrong to me)?

i'll be away for the weekend, but i'll check back with y'all on monday.

bear with me. i want to get this right.


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## YBCute (Oct 18, 2004)

Well, I use a closed loop system. Heater , injector, blower.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I built two of the ones for the top. I do one and move to the next hive and setup and do that one. When I'm done with that one I go to the first one and take everything off and leapfrog to the next one. I don't spend any time waiting. 

If you want to experiment the homeade pipe is simple. I haven't heard of anyone who was disappointed in the results.

If you really want to do it as you method of treatment, it's probably worth buying the evaporators. They aren't that expensive.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

o.k.

i've got two homemade evaporators almost finished (the ones with the 1/2 inch copper pipe and 45 degree angle elbow). most of the stuff i already had in the garage (including the oxalic).

two more questions, just out of curiosity. in an earlier post it was mentioned that natural cell may be the viable long term solution, i don't know what this is.

also, the abreviations :"IMO" "IMHO", i don't know these either,

thanks.


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## GreenMountainRose (Sep 6, 2004)

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003028

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=13 

IMO = in my opinion

IMHO = in my humble opinion


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

o.k. well, thanks. i guess that qualifies as a dumb question. i just thought it might have been a chemical or something.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

thanks for the links. the first i'd ever heard of "small cell" was from a bee catalog that said something like "expert only". after reading that, i turned the page and never thought of it again 'till i came here.

as far as things like "regression" and such like, this is all new to me (i don't think i'm quite ready for it yet either). but, it's never to late to start learning something.

once again, i'm very thankful for this web site and for all you helpful people here!!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

IMO you can just buy and use small cell foundation as a beginner. It will give you a headstart in the long run and the bees the advantage or more natural sized foundation. It's just that you need to understand regression etc. before you rely on it as your only mite control. You need to get the core of the brood nest in the 4.9mm or below range before the mite problems will go away.

I think they use that terminology in the catalogs just so beginners don't buy it, use it as their only mite control without any regression and without any monitoring of the mites and then complain that it didn't work.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>o.k. well, thanks. i guess that qualifies as a dumb question. i just thought it might have been a chemical or something.

Nope, I dont know any of this computer lingo, well except for IMO and IMHO now,...

Oh ya, I can do a smilly face now too







. And an mad face when I feel like it too  !!!


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## GreenMountainRose (Sep 6, 2004)

LOL


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

lots of luck?


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

See http://www.barreltalk.com/faq/id50.htm


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## GreenMountainRose (Sep 6, 2004)

TY Dave. BTW (EG), now we can all be confused! WTG! 

TTYL.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>lots of luck? 

laughing out loud


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

oh.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

thanks to the honey house for the list of abbreviations.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

o.k. i've got my two homemade evaporators made and i'm waiting for a good day to try these out (i'm also reading up on FGMO).

does anybody know how effective this homemade OA treatment is by itself (or is it better if i use it with FGMO)?

also, even though the label says this stuff is toxic, it's not supposed to hurt the honey right? i can use it year round?


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

I read that OA treatment is 95% effective if applied at the right time of year. (brood free conditions).

I don't know much about FGMO

There is, from what I understand and researched, no residude effects on the honey OA is normaly found in honey and depending on the type of honey there is more or less. Hives that have been treated with OA show no increase from normal OA levels than those that have not been treated.

Thus I would say a person could treat OA year round. problem is, OA does not kill mites inside the brood so multiple treatments would have to be done to get any kind of effectiveness during the brood season


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>does anybody know how effective this homemade OA treatment is by itself (or is it better if i use it with FGMO)?

I think you'll find one treatment of OA vapor after brood rearing stops is adequate to control your varroa. But you can use the FGMO all year round. The FGMO, to be effective by itself, HAS to be used all year round. It is not the kind of knock down as something like OA has. FGMO just kills a few all the time. OA kills virtually all of them that aren't sealed up in brood in one shot.

>also, even though the label says this stuff is toxic, it's not supposed to hurt the honey right? i can use it year round? 

The tests in Europe show that the amounts of it in honey are in the range of what already is in honey. Oxalic acid is already in most vegatables, like asparagus and ruhbard and turnips, in much higher amounts than you will end up with in your honey.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

i read in an article (from '97) that feeding essetial oils with an entrance feeder helps to kill mites in the cells (because nurse bees feed the oils to the brood). any thoughts?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/ipm/insects/pollinat/varroa/varroa2.htm

I think you'll find that essential oils will decrease the Varroa some. But probably not enough to solve your problems by itself.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

i was thinking in terms of combining it with the OA treatments (OA getting the mites outside the cells and essential oils getting the mites inside the cells). is it a good combination?


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

Which essential oils are you thinking of? I've used thymol vapour as my main control successfully, but wouldn't trust it as a systemic.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

One Oxalic acid treatment a year, after brood rearing stops has been sufficient in my experience.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

robert,

i had heard that oils such as peppermint, spearmint, and wintergreen in particular (pretty much the mint family) kills mites.

bob noel (who created HBH) and prof. amrine of west virginia university had been working with this (at least since '97). they claimed to have success killing mite in the comb when they fed wintergreen through an entrance feeder.

they also said they avoided robbing by changing the feeder in the evening.

i hadn't tried this, but had considered trying it this year (until i found this web page).

concerning thymol, i don't think i can get in here in WV. i know api life VAR doesn't pass section 18 here.

michael, 

if mites get bad during brood rearing seasons, will an OA treatment once for three weeks solve the problem (even though it doesn't get what's in the cells)? 


when you say OA is sufficient (at the right time), does this mean that a person can get by with this alone?


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

I've heard that they kill mites too, and they probably do; what I haven't heard is that people use them as their main mite control. If anyone did, that would be interesting, but I wouldn't risk it myself.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I have used spearmint and wintergreen oils as my only mite control for 4 years. I put it into my spring and fall syrups.
This last December, I tried OA trickle method for the first time. But, I would say that this treatment would have been too late to do much good if the mite load was very high.
I must admit that I do not do regular mite load checks. I look on the bottom boards and check for mites, I have never found many.
I did set 10 hives up on screened bottom boards this last summer as well.
I went into winter with (22) hives and lost (1), but it had nothing to do with mites. They just plain starved, my fault.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think there are many beekeepers both here and particularly in Europe who get by on just oxalic acid treatment once a year after brood rearing stops.


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

>>Strong hives are still probably the best protection, and weak hives should be combined or requeened, but care should be taken against using infested equipment on non-infested hives. Protection of stored equipment is recommended and supers with honey should not be left standing for any length of time. PDB (paradichlorobenzene) has been used for protecting empty stored combs. Coumaphos bee strips (Bayer Corporation) have been approved for use in hives for the control of small hive beetles in some states under an emergency registration. Check with your State Apiary Inspector about whether coumaphos strips can be used legally.


Terry


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Some non cumaphos/perizin user treating there colonies once with formic after harvesting and once with OA during the brood free time. I work with OA only (like many others) and treat my colonies up to 4 times 7 days apart after harvesting (if necessary) and one time the end of November or first week in December after brood rearing stops. 

Depends on the different climates, everybody must find the best way for himself and for his bees.

IMO OA is the easiest and best way to control the Varroa. Since I have the electric vaporizers its even the fastest way to treat my colonies. There is no harm to bees, brood or queen.

I have a few queens from 2003 and theyre in perfect conditions. 


Many people looking for the result how effective the OA treatment is, 70% 80% or even more then 95%. They need the right tool and have it in there own hand. There is an expression; you get what you paid for. 

I know for sure as soon as a Varroa comes in contact with OA the mite is dead. OA kills 100% the problem is to reach the Varroa inside the hive. 

Very important is, not to overheat the acid, to get a very fine fog and the right amount of acid into the hive. Dont lose too much fog, make sure all holes and cracks are closed. Dont forget when heating OA the evaporation starts round 90ºC / 194ºF but thats only water. When heating up OA the first part of the fog is water and the rest is acid. The acid evaporate later around 180ºC / 350ºF.

There is no way to say the Varroa came in contact with OA and most of them are dead. 

The question is how many survived the OA treatment inside closed cells or how many entered the hive days  weeks after the treatment? 

Is there any reason why scientists in your country starting and test the liquid OA treatment, they should have don this 6 or 8 years ago? Will they wait and test the OA vapor after 2010? 

@Antero strong hives are not a protection against the mites.


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Axtmann, Sorry...My posting above yours, was supposed to be posted to the small hive beetle thread. I replied here by mistake. 

We are all for Oxalic Acid use here in Canada, and we are trying to have it registered this year. 

Terry


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

>>>Oxalic Acid Registration Underway in Canada
Submitting the documentation is not the end of the process. We are only half way. It is expected to take a year for final approval. In the meantime there are fees and costs involved in the preparation of further information for the PMRA. There are gaps in the Canadian research and other unforeseen expenses. 
The registration of a pesticide is normally done by a chemical company. In the case of oxalic acid, the product is readily available and no drug company would be interested in paying the high cost of registration (up to $260,000 plus 3% of sales) plus the cost of research and preparation of documentation. Apiculture is a minor use industry and there is only a limited market to provide a return on investment. 

CHC members believe that we need this effective low risk pesticide. 


Terry


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## butterfly (Jan 6, 2005)

Ask Mike He Knows


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

mountaincamp,

what's your mix on the oils (for winter and fall) and how much.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

It is approximately 40 drops of each (spearmint & wintergreen) to a gallon of syrup. A little honey seems to help with emulsion. 
I use a 5# bag of sugar, the oils, a little honey, hot tap water in a gallon jug, shake and serve.
I use the same syrup for spring and fall feeding.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

thanks.

i still haven't had good enough weather to try my homemade evaporators. it's in the 30's today and will snow next week (i'm assuming if i'm using a "top" evaporator then it needs to be warm enough that the bees are flying). is this true?

also, just for curiosity, who woke up one morning and said to himself "today i;m going to put wood bleach in my hives and see what it does", or was there a more scientifc approach to this? 

how long has anyone known of this kind of treatment?


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

i'm also assuming that since it's still this cold that brood rearing hasn't kicked into high gear yet. is this also true?


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## Reed Honey (Mar 3, 2005)

M-Bush, I was wondering where I could find natural cell, and is this the smaller of the two cells aval.. THanks


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have a lot of natrual drawn comb in my hives. I use a lot of foundationless frames where the bees build what they want. This varies in size from 4.6mm sometimes up to 5.1mm for worker brood. I also have some 4.9mm foundation in and I have some wax dipped PermaComb which figures to about the equivelant of 4.95mm cells.

When I refer to natural cell size it could be natural sized foundation (4.9mm) or just letting them decide their own cell size. Either one works fine. The 4.9mm foundation is available from Brushy Mt or Dadant. The foundationless frames you'll have to modify frames yourself. If they aren't assembled I cut a bevel on the top bar. If they are already assembled then I cut a bevel and nail it on the top bar.

Take a look at my web site if you want to see pictures of foundationless frames and natural comb.

http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/bush_bees.htm


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

I was wondering has anyone tried mixing oa with fgmo using the trickel method. the fgmo seems like it would be the perfect delivery method for a contact kill.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

FGMO trickle method: If you go back and read Dr. R's early work, he found smothering bees with mineral oil killed the mites and the bees. His idea to fog (smaller particles of oil) still plugs the mites' breathing spiracles without soffucating the bees. 

I'm not sure if FGMO trickle would work, but then much of our success stories today came from those who were told, "There's no way that will work."


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