# Moisture between inner cover and outer cover



## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I prop the top cover up 1/4-1/2" by putting a short stick on the front or back of the inner cover. I actually also build my tops a couple inches longer than normal to make the path for the moisture (or heat) easier.

Many people notch their inner covers. I use the stick because I can remove the stick if robbing becomes an issue, but otherwise I leave it there all year. Moisture control in the winter and ventilation in the summer. 

Years ago I used to think that my tops at a leak somewhere. They got real heavy from moisture in the winter. I finally figured out it was just from bee breath and now, after adding the sticks, I really don't have any moisture to speak of.


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## J-Bees (Jul 12, 2008)

you can add sugar on the top inside cover.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Moisture forming BETWEEN covers means thats the place where the warm and cold are NOW meeting. As it gets colder, that "point" where condensation forms will be UNDER hive's inner cover. EXACTLY where you DO NOT want it to be.

Make sure your inner cover in turned "rim side" DOWN, and it has a "notch" in the rim.
Place INSUALTION on top of inner cover, cover w/ TC, and make certain that TC is pushed forward so notch is NOT blocked.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

How do you ventilate a hive with a top feeder on it? between one of the covers and the feeder or the feeder and the brood box?


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## jgas19 (May 19, 2009)

Thanks so much everyone... always appreciate the advice and wisdom!


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

I was wondering if moisture is even a problem or concern if the hive is not experiencing freezing weather?


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Dave W said:


> Moisture forming BETWEEN covers means thats the place where the warm and cold are NOW meeting....
> 
> Place INSUALTION on top of inner cover,.


I agree with Dave.
A piece of homasote or stryofoam insulation cut to the outside measurement of the innercover and placed between the innercover and the roof will solve the problem. 

Best Wishes,
Joe


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

with the temps we have had in new york, alot of the hives that haven't shut down yet will have moisture between inner an outer cover. I don't raise the inner cover until I'm sure that there won't be any robbing. If you have newly installed queens and a lot of brood its not unusual.

mike syracuse


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Your climate is much the same as mine. 
I recommend homasote insulation board - it both insulates AND is moisture absorbant (which styrofoam is not). Moisture absorbancy is key. Added bonus, the bees can collect the moisture from the homasote if they wish to.

cut the homasote to match the outside dimension of your inner cover (so the bees can travel between the top of the inner cover and the homasote. )

Best piece of wintering equipment there is. 

Best wishes to you and your bees!
-E.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Erin, could you clarify how you use the homasote board? Do you cut the homasote so that it perfectly matches the inner cover, including the oval hole and notch? Do you put it under the inner cover or over? I'm not quite getting the "...bees can travel..." part.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

I will take some pictures today and post this evening. 
that always makes it easier.


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

I'm trying something different this year. I put a queen excluder on top of my inner cover, then added a super with 2 holes in the upper corners then added 4 inches of shavings. Hoping it will make a nice insulated attic for the bees that will absorb moisture. I will check it everynow and then and if the shavings get to wet, i'll just change them out.

My 1928 root catalog shows doing the same thing but adding paper, leaves or walnut shells.

My hives that are low on stores, I added 2 .5/.5 12 inches long sticks right on the top of the frames for a spacer then did the paper, drivert sugar. Then inner cover, queen excluder and shavings. I know the sugar will absorb moisture maybe the shavings will help suck moisture from the sugar even though its not in direct contact.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

>>>>>A piece of homasote or stryofoam insulation cut to the outside measurement of the innercover and placed between the innercover and the roof will solve the problem<<<<<

I go a little further. Place the homasote direcctly on the top bars, A hole in the center will give access to the space above. On the homasote place a 2 1/2 " Imirie shim with a small upper entrance notch in it. Place 5# of sugar or fondant around the hole in the Homasote. (Leave access to the upper entrance). On top of this, place the inner cover/miller feeder. Insulation above the inner cover may help as it will keep the cold surface of the top cover from causing condensation. 

Presto: you have the upper entrance for ventilation, the sugar to help absorb moisture and provide emergency food. The homasote holds moisture and wicks it away. The shim is in place for spring when you give them a pollen patty.

dickm


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I had an idea the other day I've not heard of before. Would someone put a queen excluder above the top bars, about an inch of newpaper above it and the innercover over that. Report back to me how that worked out.

dickm


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Photos of homasote board as promised: 









Make sure the inner cover is pushed all the way forward so moisture/bees can access the inner cover/homasote notch. See fingers making space. 










I hope this helps clarify, more pictures of homasote in my photobucket:
http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j37/Maine_Beekeeper/homasote/

-E.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Perfect Erin. A million thanks!


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

After viewing above photos, I have the following comments 

1) In winter turn inner cover rim side down (shown rim up), otherwise there is no need for the groove in the homasote.

2) "Make sure the inner cover is pushed all the way forward". Inner cover or TOP COVER?


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Hi Dave - 
yes, you are right with #2 - I meant to say put telescoping cover all the way forward to allow access to the inner cover/homasote grove. 

But, I do not flip my inner covers. I leave them in the "correct bee space" position and use the homasote above. 
Old timey beekeepers here in Maine fill their inner covers with dry sugar for winter - and that requires the IC to be flat side down.
I don't feed dry sugar unless I am really quite sure the bees don't have enough stores on their own as I think feeding sugar can cause just as many or more problems than it solves (in terms of needing to void the undigestibles in winter)
But I do keep my IC/homasote setup ready so I could feed sugar if warranted. 

Best to you all and your bees, 
-E.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

The "correct bee space" is only important when bees are drawing comb or "stuffing cracks" w/ propolis. And extra room between top bars and inner cover is "nice" when adding a patty too 

With you IC "upside down", there is no need for a groove in the homasote.


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## France (Apr 5, 2007)

There is no need for a groove in homasote even the way the picture shows it now. 
There is already bee-space built into the IC and bees have a way to get to the entrance which is cut in the rim. . . (it is a bit small, not wide enough, but it's there) Way better than none.

Homasote is there to absorb moisture coming through center hole and disipate it to the outside. 
In severe winter such grove in homasote will build up with hoarfrost and perhaps defeat the whole idea?
If one turns the homasote so that the grove is up and out of the picture - even than the cold will come in through this groove and the homasote will be the point where cold will meet the warmth of the hive and create wet, soggy perhaps even dripping conditions?

As already said: Beekeeping is fiercely regional. Any particular set up can be good - but only depending on location in which was designed for and/or time-tested? 
This set-up, seems to me, that could be OK in warmer parts, but it could be disastrous in really cold areas of North America.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

I haven't had any problems with excessive moisture in this setup - never any buildup around the notch area of either water or ice/frost. I live on the coast of Maine so yes, it is not as cold here as many places but it is cold, that's for sure. 

I have had a couple of cases where my telescoping cover leaked and I found the homasote very wet (but not soaking). I switched out the cover and the homasote and dried the homasote near the woodstove overnight. (dries suprisingly quickly and stays straight)
I router the groove in the homasote in the event I want to feed dry sugar on the inner cover - I can completely fill the inner cover with sugar and the bees can still get out by walking over the sugar and out the groove hole. This could also be accomplished by just grooving out a space in the sugar with your finger to keep the entrance clear. 
I figure the groove is extra insurance that the vent not get blocked. 

As far as inner cover up/down, I guess that's just personal preference. I don't feed patties in the spring so I don't feel the need to flip the cover. 

One last thought for winter, I use my SBB as an evaluation tool for my colonies. By checking the debris on the SBB insert regularly I can see what/how my colonies are doing through the winter without disruption. You can watch the debris patterns change and move over time. 

Lets hope for a kind winter for bees and beekeepers!
-E.


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