# Provisioning new nucs?



## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

I have used a 24 oz styrafoame cup of bees and a queen cell on new plasticell and a feeder full of HFCS but you have to leave them closed up until the queen is 3 days old,(in a dark cool Place) a laying queen would be best.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Do you mean a caged queen would not be released?


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

talking about a queen cell and 24 oz cup of bees let the hole nuc stay closed, they will all leave if not closed up till she is 3 days old from cell hatching

a laying queen you can jut let them chew her out and leave nuc open


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Very interesting. So using mated queens might be a faster way to get started. I had hoped to add mated queens until the nucs were up and running and then replace with cells from my own operation while using the mated queens to requeen production colonies.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

shake out your bees into one container (i run my shook bees through a queen excluder this way they are all workers and no drones or queen)and let bees stay queen less all day and then place in the Mini compartments in late evening just before dusk i have me a hand spray bottle (*with a very light mixture of sugar water*) i spray down the bees a few times before dipping up my 24 oz cup of bees that is not 24oz of bees but a cup that holds 24 oz of liquid = 1 1/2 pints of bees

its Better to Make you a box (shaker Box out of ripped 2 x 4 with 1/8" hardware cloth covering it on all sides) ) to hold your shook bees _*(10-20 lbs)*_ of bees in, make it the size where you can set a brood shell on top to funnel the bees into it, also Place a queen excluder on the shell and run your bees through it. When i get my bees shook in remove the brood shell and excluder. Then place a hive top feeder on top of the shaker box. Some Time i will let them stay in the shaker box a day or two with plenty to eat and gorging on feed they are ready to produce wax and start building wax on your new frames 

place your caged mated queen into the compartment after you pour in the bees always spray the bees with you sugar water make a *very light sugar* water this will help keep them from flying


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Velbert, how do you start mating nucs with bulk bees this time of year? How many bees?

mike


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Velbert,

Would you mind describing your shook box a bit more. I figure it is 16 1/4 X 20 outside to match your brood box above? Do you wrap the shook box and then add a cover? Please explain.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g307/vlwbee/100_0695.jpg


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> Velbert, how do you start mating nucs with bulk bees this time of year? How many bees?
> 
> mike


I use a 12oz styrofoam cup of bees for new starts (not 12oz of bees but a cup that holds 12oz of liquid) and a ripe queen cell ( within 6-12 hrs of hatching) on new foundation and leave them close till the queen is 3 days old from hatch date and leave in a nice dark cool place, then at the end of the 4th day from placing ripe queen cell in at dusk move to location and open up 

The 4 frame top bar *Mini Nuc* that made it through winter i will divide them in half to start more and give them a ripe queen cell and place them on location and open up so they can fly out to work


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Velbert - 2 Questions:

Are you talking about a regular 5 frame deep nuc box - or a mating nuc?

If you are doing this to produce nucleus hives - If you do this in the spring how much will a nuc like that build up in a season?


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Mini mating nuc from http://www.beeworks.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=10&sort=20a&page=2


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Thought probably so, but nobody was saying *mating* nucs. Now I feel dumb. I'm used to it though.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Thats ok that is how we learn 

At the begging he was talking about the 4 way deep from Shamrock I have done 5 frame 1/2 length deep Mini Nucs


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## Jackobeeo (Jan 11, 2010)

Velbert

Nice pic of your shaker box setup.

Nnow that you have your say 10lbs of bees with queen, as you say they are ready to draw comb, do you dump the whole contents into a std deep brood box to finish? or add foundation frames to the screened box?

I don't follow how the mating hive enters into it unless you further diveie them?

Thankx 

Jack


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

These Bulk Bees are used to stock several mini mating nucs 12oz cup of bees with a laying queen or a ripe queen cell for the 4 frame top bar from www.beeworks.com put feed inside also


or if stocking the shamrock 4 way deeps use at least a 24oz cup of bees with a laying queen or ripe q cell and put feed inside also

Go back and start reading from the 1st post there is more info there just reading 2 or 3 post it can become confusing


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

What's the minimal amount of bees that you would place in a 5 frame medium nuc with or without a mated queen?

I want to start a handful of overwintered queens this year. I'd like to start without a brood frames, since I don't have a lot of resources. But, I don't know how successful I'd be.

More tips would be great. 

Thanks


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

No less than a Quart full of bees in the prime time of spring Here in my area that would be about blackberry bloom


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

'More tips would be great'. ditto! I like the way you explain WITH PICS!

Q. Your shake box fits over a deep super?

Q. The Shamrock or other 4-ways for heat sharing or efficient use of eq both? 

Q. Can you buy the small frames/foundation separately if you want to make box?

Q. How do you feed mating nucs? where do they have/get their provisions?

Q. After Qn is mated & you are finished w/nuc just combine bees w/another hive?

I am in Fingerlakes/Rochester area of NY. Temperatures are pretty cold here till late May. 
Q. Do you stack for heat help? what do you recommend?

A pic by pic Queen Rearing course with this method would make me smile for a mile.opcorn:


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

That would be nice LOL


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

About how many bees can you get at one time per hive like that?


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks Velbert for you input; I like the shaking box.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

David LaFerney said:


> About how many bees can you get at one time per hive like that?


Good Strong hive can get 3-4 lbs and if you shake 4 or 5 hives you have a good amout of bees. 4-Quarts of bees is a bit over 3lb of bees.

If you stock the 4 frame shamrock 4 way deep and us 24 ounce cup of bees out of 20 lbs of bees from 5 hive you can make up about 20-25 Mating nuc 

now the mine styrafome with 12 oz cup of bees you can make up 50-55 mini nuc


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I guess you mean 24 oz per each of the four chambers or a little less than 3 lbs to provision all four chambers. So somewhere around 3 lbs of bees times 6 Shamrocks make for about 24 mini's with about 20 lbs of bees to start with.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Just a question, Velbert - How much volume of bees would you add for mating nucs if you were using standard Langstroth deep brood hives divided to make three 3-frame mating nucs? I'd tend to think you'd prefer a set amount of bees per new queen, but the environment does come into play. Maybe you just want them crowded? My intent is to make increase colonies / overwintered nucs.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

yes per mini nuc 24oz


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

kilocharlie said:


> Just a question, Velbert - How much volume of bees would you add for mating nucs if you were using standard Langstroth deep brood hives divided to make three 3-frame mating nucs? I'd tend to think you'd prefer a set amount of bees per new queen, but the environment does come into play. Maybe you just want them crowded? My intent is to make increase colonies / overwintered nucs.


I usally use 1 frame of brood about 1/2 to 2/3 of the cells with brood and bees to cover it real good to keep them warm.

but if i used bulk bees on a 3 frame full length frame on med 24oz cup of bees that is 3/4 of a court or a pint and a half of bees is plenty with no brood

If deep 3 fr nuc I would use a quart of bees with no brood


That is if doing in early spring


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I've made the mistake in the past of provisioning 4 frame deep nucs with a frame of brood (or two) plus food frames and a feeder only to check on them and find most of the bees gone the next day or two. Nothing quite so exciting as having all the grafting effort down the toilet plus weaker colonies post donation and a bunch of dead brood. This happened when it was really hot out and I couldn't stand the idea of closing up the nucs. I was working a full time job at the time and ran out of the time needed to relocate the nucs. This year I will use vented equipment that I can close if needed.
Velbert - Have you ever tried the Shamrocks? They seem rather expensive but they could pay for themselves especially if over-wintered with the last crop of queens over warm colonies. I'm considering purchasing 15 because I never get more that 55 grafts out of 57 to take, so that would be enough to have continuous grafting during the peak season. The mated queens would be transfered into larger nucs and production colonies with the Shamrocks making locating and marking a lot easier.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Velbert,

Let me go back to your shaker box set up. Once the bees are shaken do you slide a lid over the screened box until ready? Do you just scoop the bees out of there with a styrofoam cup?

I've seen really nice funnels that go on top of the screened box assembly.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

I place a styrofoam feeder from dadants on top of shaker box, an place a bee tight top on that and put in feed 1 gallon in it and let them stay a day or two queenless and usally the feeder is empty and i just lift up the feeder and scoop up the bees in my cup off the bottom of feeder and I usally do it after dark I have a small 8 x 10 air condition building with a red light. and they dont fly out as bad


I always make up my nuc in early spring have had not problem with them leaving if you have a frame of brood in them. Let them stay queens for a day or two in the shaker box and then they have the wants of the brood and queen or q cell


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Do you shake one colony at a time and look for the queen on top of the excluder before moving on or do you try and locate the queens first?


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes one hive at a time 

I started just placing the brood box (with bees) on the shell with the queen excluder nailed to the bottom and use my fume board with bee go and drive the bees down they don't go all out but a big ball will form under the bottom, so after a while I just raise the brood box up a bit (2 or 3 inches) and drop it to jare the bees off set off the box then move the fume board down on the shell with q Exclude this will run the worker bees through and the queen and drones cant get through. Then look good for the queen and dump the drones back onto the hive they came from just in cast the queen could have been there and always check back in 2-3 days to make sure they have a queen and have not started Emergence queen cells. do this until you have what you think you need. I will spray the light made syrup or watered down HFCS on the bees in the shaker box before i shank or drive in more bees. If Real hot don't spray to much give them time to clean up some (before you spray more)you don't want to smother them. Usually the new bees being shook in or you drive down will help clean the other bees then repeat with each different hive you collect bees out of.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks. I will start by building a screened box for shaking.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I have read through the thread and all is correct with the techniques discussed. While this may or may not be a problem in your area, the hive beetle loves to chomp and destroy baby nucs. Not enough bees are living in baby nucs to keep the pest at bay. We used to use them to raise queens, about 2000 baby nucs. Well, we had to go to four frame nucs to raise queens. A size nuc that has a big enough bee population to defend the nest against hive beetle. Our experience with baby nucs is that they are beetle food. TK


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I hope we don't get that beetle. Being a beekeeper reminds me of a verse in the Bible about storing up treasures on Earth that the moth, thief and rust will destroy. I'm waiting for the import of the Japanese hornet.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I hope you do not get it either. Since you do not have it now, then you are one of the fortunate few left that has not experienced it's wrath. Nor do I want the Japanese hornet. TK


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## Buffalolick (Jan 26, 2010)

Enjoyed this thread. Doing this years first grafts Friday. We're in prime shb territory. Planning to use 5 frame deeps for mating nucs. Any thoughts on not using a frame of brood when making up the nuc and placing ripe cell. Bad idea? Will it work if kept closed up a few days? Trying to Max resources


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Get your bulk bees so the can stay queen less for a day or 2 

I have used a 2 day old virgins introduced in a queen cage (NO WORKERS IN CAGE) with a good amount of candy so it will take them a while to chew her out Make sure you get the queen and cage into the hive on her 2 day after emerging they seem to except them better 

When a queen first hatches she has no pheromone (the bees don't pay much attention to her are not as likely to kill her) and at the end of the 3rd day she gets her pheromone then the bees will start taking care of her are more likely to stay with her in your hive. 


This way you can get by leaving plugged only a good day or *2* 

Make sure the bulk bees have been queenless for 24-48 hours and feed, this way they are begging for a new momma queen got there bellies full and ready to build comb

If using a rip Queen cell leave plugged for 3 days after the cell has hatched that is why it is important to keep track of your time of breeder laying eggs and when you grafted I usually figure this with day 16 Hatch so you don't unplug mating nuc to early


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Plugging up a nuc makes sense but what about during hot weather? Do you cover with screen so they get a draft?


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

For a 5 frame nuc place in a good shade and only use about a quart of bees and have feed inside giving them something to do

screen on top for some air flow that way you can keep the top raised about 1/2 inch for air flow then screen the bottom entrance also I usually use #8 hardware cloth for both

and this will depend on how cool it is when you do this if early and cool you may get by with just the entrance screened


I have AC building That I place mine in I know you might not have this available to you. So they need to be in a all day shaded place.

and when you open them up do it after dark so they will be able to exit in the morning this helps them from all rushing out and being confused 

If you don't have a cooled dark place to keep them in I would not do the rip queen cell leaving them plugged up 4 days out in the yard probably will be disastrous

Go For the Virgin that is 2 days old to introduce into them


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks. I plan on raising queens through the season and will adjust for temperature.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Here is a very short youtube of a overwintered 4 frame top bar mini Nuc from www.beeworks.com

follow this link http://www.vlwbeequeens.com/


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I just don't see how that small of a cluster can survive. If you place above a strong colony, the little nuc would still need food - how do you keep such a small colony fed? Do you place a divided super above these mini-nucs?


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

That video is great, I'd like to see a little more detail about how you set them up prior to winter... Personally, I need a couple hundred of those little nucs to overwinter with. 

*grins*

The nucs he uses appear to be self-contained. The have a closed bottom from what I know about those the Styrofoam nucs. So they survive on whatever syrup they stored up.

Either way, that's pretty cool.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Its an ongoing process I feed each Mini about 4 time up til now there is an inside feeder and i would heat the hfcs and feed on a warmer day say around at least 45-50 degree day so the could get over in the feeder and get the feed.

Here about the last of October they need to have 3 or 4 of the combs filled with brood to have a nice little healthy cluster

So you don't want to feed to heavy before then but after they have got the frames full of brood then feed a couple times so they will put up the feed as the brood hatches but you will still need to keep close eye on them.

I am building some 4 frame mediums with telescoping lids and a reversible bottom board this way I can stack 2 or 3 boxes on just like supering a big hive so they can have more stores and i don't have to feed as much through the winter.

Then i will have my nuc stock come spring then all i have to do is split like a full size colonie and add my queen cell and don't have to pull resources from the full size. save them for big deep divides or for packages.


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