# deformed wings... bad sign....



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

OAV and quickly.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

beestudent said:


> I might end up just selling off the queen and combining with another colony,


not a good plan.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If you can get your hands on the queen you could dump the hive 50 ft away and the ones that can fly will make it back. The question is whether there is any brood or not and will they be sick also?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Why allow infested bees to fly to another hive?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

From the UGA Bee Program ...


> Deformed Wing Virus
> 
> DWV appears to be associated with parasitic Varroa mites which are known to spread the virus or at least activate it. Bee pupae are susceptible to infection at the white-eyed stage. The virus multiplies slowly which permits the infected individual to survive to adulthood. The newly-emerged adult has misshapen wings (Fig. 2) and soon dies.
> 
> ...


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Yes, the problem is not with the dwv bees, the problem is the conditions (varroa mite load) that made it bad enough to be noticeable. Deal with the problem.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> If you can get your hands on the queen you could dump the hive 50 ft away and the ones that can fly will make it back. The question is whether there is any brood or not and will they be sick also?



Another bad idea.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> Why allow infested bees to fly to another hive?


Why do you think they would go to another hive vs. their own?


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## Agis Apiaries (Jul 22, 2014)

Acebird said:


> Why do you think they would go to another hive vs. their own?


What are you trying to accomplish? Just because the ones with the bad wings "don't come back" doesn't mean you have solved the problem with the excessive mite load in the hive. You aren't fixing anything here.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The ones with the DWV are sick the ones without DWV are not so they must have immunity to the virus. It will depend on if there is another round of brood to keep the mites going. If there is not the mite load will naturally crash and you will be left with stronger bees. Now if there was brood you could cull it all and still experience a brood break.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Some days I'm left speechless. Doesn't quite work that way Ace.


Beestudent, as suggested just treat the colony as it is, as soon as possible. You may want to take a close look at your other colonies too. May need to treat them all while you're at it. Check you mite load, and don't wait until you've reached a critical stage to treat. Be more proactive monitoring the mites and stay ahead of them.


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## Agis Apiaries (Jul 22, 2014)

Acebird said:


> The ones with the DWV are sick the ones without DWV are not so they must have immunity to the virus.


That's a great theory to practice on YOUR hive. The OP needs to take care of the mites in their hive though. Soon.


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## Melissaam (Mar 5, 2015)

I just finished my third oav treatment on September 20...found adults (maybe 6) with deformed wings yesterday...should I retreat?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I suspect your hives might be receving lousy guests. I would do another treatment for sure and see the results of that. My thought is that if there are ANY mites left they need treatment. If you are experimenting to see how much mite load your bees can sustain and still be alive in the spring then you could choose to go with things the way they are.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Melissaam said:


> ...should I retreat?


Do an alcohol or powdered sugar shake to check your mite count and see where you are. Sometimes it takes a while for DWV to clear out of the hive after the mites have been dealt with. Your results will determine if you need to retreat or not.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> not a good plan.


X2


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Barry said:


> Another bad idea.


X2


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## beeman2009 (Aug 23, 2012)

Probably not. Takes time for older bees to die off. Do a mite count to see what your load is. Then decide.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Agis Apiaries said:


> That's a great theory to practice on YOUR hive.


You think I wouldn't?
OT said "not a good plan" to the idea of selling the queen and combining. I think he said that because the queen could be the problem and combining the hive would endanger the combined hive. But the experts say that the mere fact that he has this hive means the others are in danger. If you treat one you might as well treat them all there is no difference.
OAV or most any treatment does not kill DWV it only kills mites. Most do not even kill mites in the brood hence the multiple treatments in a row. The bees with DWV can provide nothing for the colony except more disease. It is certain they can't fly.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Acebird said:


> OT said "not a good plan" to the idea of selling the queen and combining.


"Buy this queen. I took it out of a hive that had enough mite/viral load to visibly see deformed wing virus on worker bees. I didn't think it would survive the winter, so I don't want to risk it myself. Tell you what, you seem like a nice guy, I'll give you a deal. Only $20 bucks for her."

"You can't buy integrity."-Joel Salatin


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Selling the queen is without question ridiculously unethical. G


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## wdale (Jun 27, 2014)

<<<<< if it is, how can i treat it?<<<< YES You could do "FLASH TREATMENT" 30-40 ml of Formic acid per brood box or MQS will get all the mites within the capped brood The longer method OV treatment treat every 5-7 day to get the mites I think SNL on this site is OV person to chat with he has GOOD ideas
<<<<< combining with another colony<<<< <but dont want to endanger another colony<<< NO you answered your own question???? you are spreading mites to another hive TREAT ALL OF YOUR HIVES AT SAME TIME
<<<<< might end up just selling off the queen <<<<< WHY if she is a good queen and maybe over whelmed with the mites IF you see 1-2 mites you would be looking at mite infestation at this time of year!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Why do you think they would go to another hive vs. their own?


Oh sorry Ace, I thought your original post meant to shake them out & let them go to another hive, ie, remove their own hive.

However if the idea is to shake them to remove the ones with shrivelled wings, be aware the other bees will be carrying DWV also, bees can be tested with very high levels that will shorten their lives to just a few days yet still not have shrivelled wings, found this out a few years back when I had some hives that were failing to thrive and had them lab tested to see what the problem was, it was DWV even though there were no shrivelled wings.

Likewise the queen could be infected and in fact is likely to be. This infection can be passed through the eggs, as it was being in the case of my own failing to thrive hives, it was coming from the queens. These queens tend to get superseded after a short time but the daughter queen might also be infected.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I will grant you that some of the adult bees that don't have the shriveled wings could have DWV but will they all? If they die in a couple of days all the better. If the queen is passing on the virus there is not much OAV is going to do.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Maybe not all. But removing the bees with shrivelled wings will not cure the hive.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> But removing the bees with shrivelled wings will not cure the hive.


And killing some of the mites will. Got it...


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

It is more complicated than any of this.

My recollection is that even before varroa, DWV was present in about 70% of samples (I'm not recalling off the top of my head whether that is of bees or of colonies)...regardless, DWV has been endemic in the honeybee population for a long time.

Varroa seems to make the infection more visible...probably by acting to increase the amount of virus per bee ('titer levels').


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Pre varroa, the spread of DWV was kept in check by the bees hard exoskeleton. Other than that bees have no immunity to it so it was transmitted at low levels by other means but was in a natural balance and had probably been that way for millennia.

Now they get injected with it so the more varroa the more DWV.

This info came to me from the scientist who runs the lab that tested my bees. After discovering the high DWV levels I said to him I wanted to find bees that were developing immunity to the virus, he told me they have none, the exoskeleton had been all that was needed to do the job.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

deknow said:


> Varroa seems to make the infection more visible...probably by acting to increase the amount of virus per bee ('titer levels').


It's no different than with humans. With a compromised immune system a common cold can be lethal.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I think it is more complicated than that. Thus study is at least a start.
http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1004230


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Ace, you are dangerously clueless. 

Beestudent, here's a DWV bee I found this year in a nuc... I'm sure you have Google'd but there's another anyway. MAQS'd them and requeened.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

But some colonies don't get sick how do you explain that?


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Let's see... DWV is an indication of a tremendously high mite infestation. Get rid of the bees with DWV and problem solved???????
Sounds like treating the symptoms instead of the problem. Kill the mites, the DWV should disappear as the infected bees die off and there are few if any mites to infect the new larva/pupae/bees. Just because some of the workers have DWV doesn't mean the queen has it. She may not be spreading it, they are getting it because the mites are feeding on the larva and weakening them so they are more liable to catch it and other viruses.
Hives that have DWV and are treated for mites generally survive if treated soon enough, and the DWV disappears.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

GaryG74 said:


> Hives that have DWV and are treated for mites generally survive if treated soon enough, and the DWV disappears.


Beestudent, treat your hive and let us know if it survives.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Now if there was brood you could cull it all and still experience a brood break.


You could, eh? In October?? In Michigan.

Incorrect dogma, repeated many times, is still incorrect.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ace, remember, you were only going to post content that was within your level of experience. Otherwise you would be posting in the form of a question. There's always the moderated user group!


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"I think it is more complicated than that. Thus study is at least a start.
http://journals.plos.org/plospathoge...l.ppat.1004230"

Thank you for that link. Also, with respect to cellular and humoral immune responses to viruses: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214574515000863


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Barry said:


> Ace, remember, you were only going to post content that was within your level of experience.


You know the saying... 12,500 strikes and you're out! 
He's been in rare form this evening. 



Acebird said:


> But some colonies don't get sick how do you explain that?


In no particular order... Oxalic acid, Apivar, thymol, formic acid, etc...


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> Y
> In no particular order... Oxalic acid, Apivar, thymol, formic acid, etc...


Or, Genetics, Management, Location, etc.......


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

biggraham610 said:


> Or, Genetics, Management, Location, etc.......


That's in the etc.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> That's in the etc.


Funny, I would have flipped the order........... imagine that....... G


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Gotta start somewhere.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Start talking to some bee scientists and you'll start to get the idea that what is wrong with our bees is not pests or the bees. It's the lack of a diverse habitat. Put humanity into a box, change the world to one that only allows access to fried chicken, and green beans then we'd start to understand why our honey bees are unhealthy and dying. They need access to a wide variety of nature's "healing" plants and we've destroyed those plants to grow more corn, soybeans, almonds, rice, and stuff that bees don't really need.

Mites suck and I'm treating for them. Not a TF speaker, these aren't the droids you're looking for, move along.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

One can always tell when the beekeeping chores start to slow down. lol


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

aunt betty said:


> They need access to a wide variety of nature's "healing" plants and we've destroyed those plants to grow more corn, soybeans, almonds, rice, and stuff that bees don't really need.


:thumbsup: Bingo! This is the real ect. Oh excuse me Barry ... could this be the real ect.?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I'm guessing neither of you have seen what bees look like coming out of the almonds in mid March.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I do Jim. I got to look at about 3000 of them. Except for them looking like they were fed from McDonald's they look like the bees I already had. I don't know where the queen came from but she looked like she came from Darfur. We will see if they like Utica winters.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

"Fed from McDonald's", yes, an excellent description of bees that have just been on a 6 week honey flow. What isn't honey is brood. Now if only corn, beans or rice bees would look like this we beekeepers would have it made.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Here's a super sized double quarter pounder from last year starting to backfill the brood nest. Didn't have any trouble making splits out of these guys. 
Obesity in humans is one thing but in bees it's quite another "problem".


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> Now if only corn, beans or rice bees would look like this we beekeepers would have it made.


Jim aren't we saying the same thing?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

aunt betty said:


> They need access to a wide variety of nature's "healing" plants and we've destroyed those plants to grow more corn, soybeans, almonds, rice, and stuff that bees don't really need.
> .


Saying the same thing? Don't scare me Brian. . 
I was responding to the above quote and your response was "bingo". Almonds don't belong on that list. They don't claim prime farm ground because they grow under irrigation in a desert. I'm not saying that is necessarily good or sustainable but I know it makes for some really obese hives.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I am sorry Jim. You can't quote people and then start taking out their words. The only issue I have with almonds and bees is the chemicals and monoculture that requires moving the bees out to prevent starvation. What Aunt betty was saying is the bees don't need almonds. She didn't say it wasn't good for beekeepers.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> You can't quote people and then start taking out their words.


What you CAN do is to quote the comment that you are responding to, and then separately address the various points in that quote. A "BINGO" is not selective - it effectively endorses the entire quote.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> She didn't say it wasn't good for beekeepers.


Actually, Aunt Betty is really Uncle Bruce.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Where does Aunt Betty / Uncle Bruce fit into your "gender" poll thread, Barry? :scratch:  
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-s-the-gender-split-in-the-world-of-beesource

:lookout:


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