# American Foulbrood (afb)



## rrussell6870

This thread is to help people to understand more about afb... what it is, where it comes from, how it spreads, how to identify it, and how to resolve it....

As my time is limited, I will make posts on the matter as I have time to do so, instead of all at once... I encourage anyone with experience on the matter to lend a hand and their input... also, I encourage anyone with questions to please feel free to ask them... there will be no stupid questions in this thread as it is intended to inform everyone whether they are considering getting their first hive or are running tens of thousands of hives...


----------



## SPRUCE BEE

Just how prevelant is afb these days? I've only encountered it in the late 60's when it seemed to be pretty common. My old beekeeper mentor at that time said it was more prevelant in the Italian bees at that time. Which breed is most resistant? I'm assuming genetics has played an important part in current resistance? It sounds like maintaining healthy un-stressed hives is the best prevention.


----------



## apis maximus

SPRUCE BEE said:


> It sounds like maintaining healthy un-stressed hives is the best prevention.


If the AFB spores are present in all the hives...and only some get to express the disease clinically...the above statement makes a lot of sense.


----------



## rrussell6870

Actually, that is a great starting point and one of the greatest issues faced by people not knowing what to look for... In so many cases afb is found to be consistant in strong early buildup colonies as opposed to weak dwindling hives as most would expect... thus the italians would have been to more common targets with their early and heavy brood rearing... 

to fully understand the complexities of just how the bacteria works, I will first explain the bacteria Paenibacillus larvae ssp. larvae which was once classified as Bacillus larvae, but still commonly referred to as Bacillus larvae by most in the bee community...

Paenibacillus spp. is used in many agricultural environments since many were shown to be important for agriculture and horticulture (e.g. P. polymyxa), industrial (e.g. P. amylolyticus), and medical applications (e.g. P. peoriate). These bacteria produce various extracellular enzymes such as polysaccharide-degrading enzymes and proteases, which can catalyze a wide variety of synthetic reactions in fields ranging from cosmetics to biofuel production. Various Paenibacillus spp. also produce antimicrobial substances that affect a wide spectrum of micro-organisms such as fungi, soil bacteria, plant pathogenic bacteria and even important anaerobic pathogens as Clostridium botulinium.

Several Paenibacillus species serve as efficient plant growth promoting rhizobacteria (PGPR). PGPR competitively colonize plant roots and can simultaneously act as biofertilizers and as antagonists (biopesticides) of recognized root pathogens, such as bacteria, fungi and nematodes. They enhance plant growth by several direct and indirect mechanisms. Direct mechanisms include phosphate solubilization, nitrogen fixation, degradation of environmental pollutants and hormone production. Indirect mechanisms include controlling phytopathogens by competing for resources such as iron, amino acids and sugars, as well as by producing antibiotics or lytic enzymes. 

Competition for iron also serves as a strong selective force determining the microbial population in the rhizosphere. Several studies show that PGPR exert their plant growth-promoting activity by depriving native microflora of iron. Although iron is abundant in nature, the extremely low solubility of Fe3+ at pH 7 means that most organisms face the problem of obtaining enough iron from their environment. To fulfill their requirements for iron, bacteria have developed several strategies, including 
1. the reduction of ferric to ferrous ions, 
2. the secretion of high-affinity iron-chelating compounds, called siderophores, and 
3. the uptake of heterologous siderophores. P. vortex's genome for example, harbors many genes which are employed in these strategies, in particular it has the potential to produce siderophores under iron limiting conditions. 

3.Endospores do not form normally during active growth and cell division. Rather, their differentiation begins when a population of vegetative cells passes out of the exponential phase of growth, usually as a result of nutrient depletion. Typically one endospore is formed per vegetative cell. The mature spore is liberated by lysis of the mother cell (sporangium) in which it was formed.

4. The formation of endospores is a complex and highly-regulated form of development in a relatively simple (procaryotic) cell. In all Bacillus species, the process of spore formation is similar, and can be divided into seven defined stages.
The vegetative cell 
1. begins spore development when the DNA coils along the central axis of the cell as an "axial filament" 
2. The DNA then separates and one chromosome becomes enclosed in plasma membrane to form a protoplast 
3. The protoplast is then engulfed by the mother cell membrane to form a intermediate structure called a forespore 
4. Between the two membranes, The core (cell) wall, cortex and spore coats are synthesized 
5. As water is removed from the spore and as it matures, it becomes increasingly heat resistant and more refractile 
6. The mature spore is eventually liberated by lysis of the mother cell. 

The entire process takes place over a period of 6-7 hours and requires the temporal regulation of more than 50 unique genes. 

Mature spores have no detectable metabolism, a state that is described as cryptobiotic. They are highly resistant to environmental stresses such as high temperature (some endospores can be boiled for several hours and retain their viability), irradiation, strong acids, disinfectants, etc. Although cryptobiotic, they retain viability indefinitely so that under optimal environmental conditions, they germinate into vegetative cells. 

Endospores are formed by vegetative cells in response to environmental signals that indicate a limiting factor for vegetative growth, such as exhaustion of an essential nutrient. They germinate and become vegetative cells when the environmental stress is relieved. Hence, endospore formation is a mechanism of survival rather than a mechanism of reproduction. 

Differences between endospores and vegetative cells that form them. (Note- Collumns are provind to be quite difficult on beesource, the first column is the property/ next is the vegetative cells/ and next is the endospores. Each is seperated by /.)

Property / Vegetative cells / Endospores 

Microscopic appearance / Nonrefractile / Refractile 

Calcium dipicolinic acid / Absent / Present in core 

Cytoplasmic water activity / High / Very low 

Enzymatic activity / Present / Absent 

Macromolecular synthesis / Present / Absent 

Heat resistance / Low / High 

Resistance to chemicals and acids / Low / High 

Radiation resistance / Low / High 

Sensitivity to lysozyme / Some sensitive; some resistant / Resistant 

Sensitivity to dyes and staining / Sensitive / Resistant

Due to the resistance of their endospores to environmental stress, as well as their long-term survival under adverse conditions, most aerobic sporeformers are ubiquitous and can be isolated from a wide variety of sources. Hence, the occurrence of sporeforming bacteria in a certain environment is not necessarily an indication of habitat. However, it is generally accepted that the primary habitat of the aerobic endospore-forming bacilli is the soil. The Russian microbiologist, Winogradsky, considered them as "normal flora" of the soil. 

In the soil environment the bacteria become metabolically-active when suitable substrates for their growth are available, and presumably they form spores when their nutrients become exhausted. This is a strategy used by other microbes in the soil habitat, including the filamentous fungi and the actinomycetes, which also predominate in the aerobic soil habitat. It is probably not a coincidence, rather an example of convergent evolution, that these three dissimilar groups of microbes live in the soil, form resting structures (spores), and produce antibiotics in association with their sporulation processes. 

Since many endospore forming species can effectively degrade a series of biopolymers (proteins, starch, pectin, etc.), they are assumed to play a significant role in the biological cycles of carbon and nitrogen. 

From soil, by direct contact or air-borne dust, endospores can contaminate just about anything that is not maintained in a sterile environment. They may play a biodegradative role in whatever they contaminate, and thereby they may be agents of unwanted decomposition and decay. Several Bacillus species are especially important as food spoilage organisms.


----------



## rrussell6870

Ok, so if you can wrap your head around all of the information in the above post, you will have discovered that...

1. The genus bacillus has many purposes in agriculture and is found almost anywhere...

2. The P. Bacillus that is in every bee colony is not the spores, but rather the vegitative cells...

3. P. Bacillus reproduces (produces endospores from vegetative cells) as it dies from lack of nutrition rather than while it thrives... thus it produces endospores as a survival mechanism rather than a reproductive mechanism... but this only takes place when the vegetative cell find an optimum temporary environment...

4. As vegetative cells, P. Bacillus can more easily be destroyed than the endospores... However, once destroyed from a surface, the chances of that surface coming in contact with more vegetative cells are almost immenant...

5. You need a stout cup of coffee before you sit down to read any of my more descriptive posts.


----------



## rrussell6870

Now that we know what bacteria we are dealing with and how it lives and multiplies, lets move on to how it works within a bee colony and how the social behavior of bees effect its developement...

Ok, so understanding that this bacteria is virtually impossible to stay away from, How do we avoid issues with it?

1. The bacteria is no threat in a vegetative cell state... 

2. Heavy amounts of vegetative cells must enter the correct age larvae via the larvae's feed... the optimal age is within the 24 hrs after the larvae has emerged from the egg and this window of opportunity is closed forever when the larvae reaches 3 days of age... only the larvae that injest heavy amounts of vegetative cells within that first 24 hrs will be suitable hosts for the bacteria to produce spores that can infect the colony, as the older larvae will develop to a harder state so the bees can remove them without releasing the P. Bacillus spores... 

3. Once the vegetative cells recognise that the lavae is no longer providing the nutrient resources that they require (ie, the larvae has died from lack of nutrients due to the bacteria stealing it all), the vegetative cells will begin to produce endospores which are all racing to get to the vegetative cell state and is also how the bacteria is spread throughout the hive by the bees trying to remove the dead larvae that has turned in to a pool of goo in the cell...

This is where the "roping" effect comes from... the dead larvae is a host to millions of endospores at this point and it has become a high elasticity substance... as the bees pull and tug trying to remove it from the cell, it simply streches out, then snaps back in, releasing endospores on to the bees that are tugging and the edge of the cells around it... these endospores are then passed along all throughout the colony... 

Keep in mind, that although endospores are now all over the colony, they still have to find their way into the feed for the perfect aged larvae in high numbers, just not quite as high as the vegetative cells... and since they are being produced directly within the colony, the possiblity of them finding a suitable host is greater than before... and since they are now travelling by nurse be, the possibilty of them being fed to a larvae is greater than before... 

Once 4-8 larvae have been infected and become endospore production sites, the possiblities of spores finding their way into the guts of the right aged larvae have been multiplied several times over...

So what are the WARNING signs that you could run into AFB problems?
1. You keep honey bees...
2. Your honey bees buildup heavily...
3. Your honey bees have some level of hygenic behavior...

Wait a second!!! Those are not bad things in bee keeping!! What gives?? 

Thats exactly right, these are not bad things for the bees... the reality is that the chances of an infection are Extremely rare... In the natural state, honey bees have lived and thrived with P. larvae and AFB for millinium... some colonies die from it, sometimes it manages to spread from one colony to another... but the chances are litterally 1 in 1,000,000, in the natural state... But as bee keepers, we do not keep bees in a natural state... how could we? Could you imagine spacing your hives throughout the forests one hive every mile or so?? Not me...

So just simply needing to keep multiple hives within one space we have raised our chances of seeing P. bacillus create AFB by a very large amount...

Still the for an infection to start, a heavy stress is usually required, ie, heavy comb manipulation in cold and poor weather, unmanagable combs forcing the seperation of the enternal workings of the colony, etc...

Panic time? No..

Now its time to learn how to identify infection of different levels and test questionable findings both during your inspections and in the lab (if necessary)...

So now lets move on to identifying AFB infections... Starting with what it actually looks like, then explaining the different testing methods...


----------



## jrbbees

Thanks Russell,
You are blessing us. Would we have some one do this for every problem we are facing.
Moderators: Can this become a sticky or something always at the top?


----------



## Oldtimer

Just thought I'd add a little snipet to that (if I may, Robert).

It can be hard to understand why hives can have bacillus larvae bacteria in them but not get sick. One of the main reasons is that a bee larva has to be killed by the disease and turn into the sticky stuff Robert described, for the disease to take hold in the hive. But the way the bacteria kill the larva, is when the larva pupates, the bacteria penetrate it's gut wall, and kill it. If there are only a few bacteria, they cannot cause enough damage at pupation to kill the larva. The larva survives, and the infection is not spread. If the bee larva only gets infected with one bacteria, the bacteria cannot multiply into enough bacteria by the time the larva pupates, to kill the bee larva. The bee larva has to ingest quite a few bacteria while it is still quite young, for the bacteria to multiply into enough to kill the larva.

Therefore there can be low levels of bacillus larvae bacteria in a hive, but the likelihood of a larva getting enough to cause a fatal infection is very low, so the hive never shows symptoms of the disease.

Actually looking back I think that's kinda what Robert already said, but I'll leave it there, understanding this bit is part of the key to understanding the mechanics of this disease.


----------



## Hawkster

I am impressed both with the knowledge expressed and with Russell's response to an uniformed post implying he was quarantined. he turned it into a teaching event !


----------



## jrbbees

If I remember right the issue for Russells was EFB and not AFB and it only involved one small location and a small number of hives in that location. More important, he did the right thing. Worked with inspectors, pulled that yard completely out of production of bees or queens, and went through the treatment processes and has established a self imposed isolation of that yard that exceeds the inspectors recomendations. A man can't do better than that.

If you keep enough bees long enough you will take your turn with every major issue we face. You just wait your turn and have to do what is right when the hammer falls on you!


----------



## preciousbees

Now this is what I like to see, good solid information, a real educational opportunity here. All too often there is mis-information on problems we encounter with our hives. I want to thank the more experienced Beekeepers for sharing thier knowlege with us.


----------



## arcowandbeegirl

Wow, thanks for all the great information!!
How many people actually treat with tetracycline or tylan as a preventative? 
I understand there are alot of people that dont treat unless they have to, but just wondered.


----------



## AstroBee

Russell, 

Thank you for posting such a complete and well written source of information on AFB. This thread already is deserving of being promoted to a sticky.

Others, I respectfully request that we dedicate this thread to the opportunity to truly educate beekeepers on AFB. Please, lets not be tempted to dredge up issues being discussed elsewhere that do not pertain to the core mission of this wonderful thread. Thank you.


----------



## megank

Whoa..I think I just took mirco again. I will add that I agree with Russell. AFB is in every hive the same way anthrax is present on your kitchen floor, however, I disagree that hygienic bees are more susceptible as I believe he implied. 

If the dead or dying larvae are removed before the ropey stage then that's 10 million innocuous spores that will be tossed out of the hive.

Also I'd like to add that for new infections to occur, three conditions must be present. A virulent pathogen (p. bacillus), a mode of transmission and a susceptible host. Break the link between any one and no new infections will occur.

Has any studies been done to determine the number of p. bacillus in either form required to cause a symptomatic infection of the larvae?


----------



## megank

I only treat with antibiotics when I receive comb of unknown origin. After which I quickly replace as winter approaches.


----------



## Oldtimer

megank said:


> Has any studies been done to determine the number of p. bacillus in either form required to cause a symptomatic infection of the larvae?


Yes that's been done.

I've actually read the info on it and had to pass an exam on it to qualify as a bee inspector, but now I cannot remember the exact figures.

However there's a certain number of bacillus larvae bacteria that a bee larva has to consume to create a fatal infection if the bee larva is less than 24 hours old. When the bee larva gets older, say, day two, it has to ingest a heckuva lot more before the infection would be fatal to it. The exact bacteria numbers needed have been established by testing under laboratory conditions. 

Sorry I can't give exact numbers off my head, however the general idea is there.


----------



## megank

Thanks Oldtimer...If there's been studies, I can find it.


----------



## Oldtimer

I'll also see if I can get the info. I origionally borrowed someone elses literature to learn the "technical" stuff I had to know to pass the exam, and that was a few years ago. So I'll track it down but it might be a few days before I get back with it.

Pretty likely it will be on the web somewhere also, if anyone else gets it before me, I may not come back about it.


----------



## Riskybizz

Reading Robert Russell's latest posts regarding AFB properties in light of the recent allegations of his "quarantined" apiaries, PRICELESS


----------



## WLC

I've found the following paper to be interesting:

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/75/10/3344.pdf

It shows that there is more than one strain of AFB, and not only provides for a way to differentiate between strains, but also helps to bolster arguments against proscribed burning of hives.

Besides, if it's from Genersch, I would pay attention.

Yes Doc, it does help your cause and research objectives.


----------



## megank

I hope I'm not violating copywrite laws...

"
In honeybees, hygienic behavior means the detection and
removal of diseased, parasitized, or otherwise nonvital brood
from the brood nest by nurse bees. This behavior helps to
remove brood pathogens from the colony, and therefore, it is
considered a part of the immune response of honeybees (5, 14,
15, 18, 19, 21, 22). In the case of AFB, the removal of diseased
larvae by nurse bees prior to the conversion of the larval
biomass into infectious spores efﬁciently disturbs spore production within the colony, 
leading to impaired disease transmission and disease development within the colony. The more
AFB-infected larvae become moribund or even die before cell
capping, the more larvae will be removed by nurse bees as part
of the immune defense and the less ropy mass and fewer
spore-containing foulbrood scales will be produced (Table 1)"


----------



## baldwinbees

what about SHB???beetles travel in&out of MANY cells in a hive.Then they leave&go to another&another&another.If I have 6 hives in 1 location&the beetles migrate between all of them,is there a possibility of them transferring the disease to all of them?


----------



## sqkcrk

At Russell's urging this morning before he left for the Coast, I will chime in by describing how to check a hive for AFB, in a hive w/ a live colony and in a deadout hive, one w/ no bees or brood. This is how I was taught by fellow Apiary Inspectors some 25 years ago.

Bear handed, one smokes the entrance of the hive, remove the cover, smoke down thru the inner cover hole, crack open ther inner cover and smoke some more, remove the inner cover.

Remove the honey supers, if there are any, placing them across the cover so as not to squash any more bees than necassary. (many people like to stack the supers inside the cover so any honey that might drip doesn't end up on the ground. I think Michael Palmer prefers that method, but I am not sure about that.)

Once the brood boxes are uncovered, standing beside the hive, break the two deeps apart so as to loosen any burr comb from between the bottom bars and top bars of the upper and lower deep. Then, w/ the hook end of a standard hive tool, loosen the frames from each other and w/ the flat part break the side frames from the walls of the hive.

Remove the second frame. The frame closest to the wall usually is full of honey, not often occupied by brood. There are exceptions to all rules. If the second frame contains any brood or open cells here is where the actual search for AFB starts.

Holding the frame of brood w/ two hands and by the top bar, scan the surface of the caped brood looking at the color and condition of the cappings, especially any punctured caps. If one finds a punctured cap, using the corner of ones hive tool, further open the cell and see what resides inside. If a white pupae is present, move on. If a brown viscus liquid mass is found prepare to sample this, using a wooden match or a small twig. Stick you match into the cell, stir it around a couple of times and try to scrape the mass out of the cell. If you can, it isn't AFB. If the brown liquid acts like rubber cement and brakes off springing back into the cell, it's AFB.

Punctured cap w/ a brown viscus liquid that ropes, breaks off and springs back into the cell is 99% accurately diagnosed as AFB. For Lab confirmation, take the stick that you stirred the cell contents w/, place it on a piece of paper, wrap it up and send it to The Beltsville Bee Lab, Beltsville, Maryland. I don't have any better an address available at this time. Google it.

Say you have looked at the first comb and find nothing suspicious. Continue on thru the rest of the combs in that box. Some folks don't care for it, but I stand the frame I removed against the hive after shaking the bees off of it. As I look at the rest of the combs, I put them back in the box. When finished w/ the top brood box, I slide the eight frames back away from me and replace the frame which I first removed.

The next step is to check the bottom brood box. Sometimes this box will be pretty vacant of any brood. Check it anyway. If it contains capped brood, do as described above. If the combs are mostly empty, this is where you can practice looking for AFB Scale, the dried down mass, no longer liquid. If you have good/young eyes you might spot the pupal tongue.

Again, w/ the frame held w/ two hands, by the ends of the top bar, this time especially w/ the sun over your shoulder, tilt the frame away from you like a dosing rod, if you know what that looks like, so you can scan across the open cells looking for something unusually lumpy and black laying on the wall of a cell. Having sunlight shining down across the open cells helps your eye to really see the scale. It takes practice. It's also helpful to see someone do it. It's somewhat hard for me to describe.

If you find what you think is an AFB scale, you will have to cut some cells out of the comb and send them to Beltsville.

Everything I have described above pertains mostly to Worker Brood, not frames of Drone Brood. You can skip them, if you have them in your hives for mite control. It is a rare occurance to find AFB in drone brood. I have never seen it and I think there probably is some mechanism which prevents drones from getting AFB. Maybe someone knows.

If there is anything I forgot to mention or any clarification needed, let me know.

Oh, yeah, put the hive back together thwe way you found it. Wash your hive tools, hands and smoker bellows w/ a scrub brush and soapy water, after inspecting the yard and after finding each case of AFB. That's how I was taught.


----------



## apis maximus

Russell,

Could you please help me understand the apparent discrepancy between your 2 statements in post #6, and the text found in “The Hive and the Honey Bee”, regarding what actually starts the infection? 
Is it the spore stage or the vegetative stage?
I always thought that the spores carried around by the nurse bees are fed to the larvae..., once ingested by the larvae, the spore germinates and starts its killing of the larvae by multiplying in the midgut, then penetrating the body cavity and in the end, causing septicimia. 
Then, once the substrate( larva) is gone, it converts back to spores…and spreads around…looking for another “perfect age” larvae…

Am I wrong? Thanks for your patience!

For reference, I am posting both, your statement from post #6 and the one from the book.

Quoting Russell:

“1._ The bacteria is no threat in a vegetative cell state... 
2. Heavy amounts of *vegetative cells* must enter the correct age larvae via the larvae's feed... the optimal age is within the 24 hrs after the larvae has emerged from the egg and this window of opportunity is closed forever when the larvae reaches 3 days of age... only the larvae that injest heavy amounts of vegetative cells within that first 24 hrs will be suitable hosts for the bacteria to produce spores that can infect the colony, as the older larvae will develop to a harder state so the bees can remove them without releasing the P. Bacillus spores..._”

Quoting from “*The Hive and the Honey Bee*”, page 1085, American Foulbrood Disease:

“_*Only the spore stage *of B.larvae can initiate the disease, and the *spores* can remain viable indefinitely on beekeeping equipment…Woodrow(1942)concluded that one B.larvae* spore *is sufficient to infect a larva one day after the egg hatch. Using Woodrow’s data, Bucher (1958) determined the LD 50 of Bacillus larvae to be 35 *spores* in one-day-old honey bee larvae. *Spores *of B.larvae germinate approximately one day after ingestion by the larva…”_


----------



## Oldtimer

Thanks for that excellent article WLC, I've added it to my favorites.


----------



## apis maximus

megank said:


> I disagree that hygienic bees are more susceptible as I believe he implied.


Can't speak for Russell... Also, after reading the article that *WLC* linked (good stuff, thanks! *WLC*) and you also quoted from on the hygienic behavior,... my take is that hygienic bees, just by having a more intense cleaning behavior will increase the chance of spreading the spores through the hive...while trying to take out the ropey stuff or scales for that matter. Yes, hygienic bees will increase the chance of stopping the infection if they get to remove the dead larvae before it is capped. Like the larva killed by the ERIC ll AFB genotype, that kills fast, before the larva is capped...
But, what if, the hive is infected with one of the ERIC I AFB genotypes, that kills the larvae after it is capped? I mean, hygienic or not...if ERIC I is involved...and larva dies after being capped, more slowly...then the hygienic behavior is not going to help a whole lot. Unless, the ropey stuff stays capped and undisturbed...sealed forever so to speak. What are the chances of that?
Am I wrong in this line of thinking?


----------



## sqkcrk

Do y'all have a magnifying screen or something. WLC's article is way to small for me to read.

How does it bolster the nonburning of infected equipment?


----------



## Riskybizz

sqkcrk

click on the document link and then magnify the document by increasing the %. I don't know what system your operating from. Look for "view" or increase text size option.


----------



## apis maximus

sqkcrk said:


> How does it bolster the nonburning of infected equipment?


It does not. It describes however that P.larvae comes in different genotypes. Some more virulent than others. The extremely virulent ones, by killing the larvae very fast, before it is capped, allows the bees to clean/remove before the formation of spores. Therefore, clinical expression of the disease is not noticed...despite the fact that the hive was infected at one point. On the other hand, if the AFB genotype is one of the less virulent, slower killer ( as in takes its time to kill the larva after it was capped) the chances of the larva developing into ropey stuff goes up...and doing an inspection would detect this ropey stuff...and in the end, burning the hive.
Just my 2 cents...


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> but also helps to bolster arguments against proscribed burning of hives.


How does it do that?


----------



## WLC

Did you read the paper?


----------



## megank

@ apis m

Any removal of diseased larvae will reduce the rate of infection. I'm sure on any given occasion you can find one or two AFB infected larvae in most untreated hives. Is that a cause panic? Not in my book, however, there seems to be a threshold of the number of diseased larvae where the hive becomes symptomatic. If those few dead and dying larvae are removed when they are found by hygienic bees then the disease does not manifest itself colony wide.

If I'm not mistaken Charles Mraz and Dr. Spivak has shown this to be the case, unless there is another mechanical mechanism that disrupts transmission


----------



## WLC

megank:

More importantly, it gives the beekeeper a way to determine if they have the ERIC I or ERIC II strain of AFB. It's in the timing.

That's the part that's important to the Doc's 'thesis'.


----------



## rrussell6870

Ok, some great discussion topics came into play while I was out... 

First, let me address the concern of the different genotypes... as with all lab studies, the real world is much different... there are indeed 4 recognised genotypes of P. Larvae, however, outside of the lab environment, they are all found to be amongst each colony... so while this study gives us a closer look at the differences between the genotypes, that doesnt mean that we will ever find a colony with one specific genotype inside... the findings of this research is more helpful in the areas of genotype promotion... ie.. promoting the atmosphere needed for a less virulent genotype in an effort to reduce the populations of the more virulent ones... that is not currently under study, but may be in the near future...

Next I will address the question in post #24... the key to the difference is "originally causes the infection"... vegetative cells are responsible for this in the first guttural infection... as they run out of food within that first, they then produce spores which are spread and cause the rest of the infections within other cells... it is important to note that the chances of the initial first cell becoming infected is very low, and requires some for of stress in nearly ever case studied... an infection can be one single larvae or ten, but it is always started by one larvae being infected by vegetative cells... then spreading from there...


----------



## WLC

'the findings of this research is more helpful in the areas of genotype promotion... ie.. promoting the atmosphere needed for a less virulent genotype in an effort to reduce the populations of the more virulent ones... that is not currently under study, but may be in the near future...'

Boy, am I glad that we are working on a bio-ceramic hive.


----------



## rrussell6870

As to the effects of hygienic behavior...

As I have said before, there is a level of hygienic behaviour that exceeds the desired levels for production and optimal colony health... 

The spores passed along from an infected cell are of course passed more effectively by the hygienic bees that are hoping to remove the dead larvae... that said, an extremely hygienic colony can and has proven to be effective at responding so tenaciously to afb, that they were able to completely overcome the infection... however, the infection may have never occurred had they sealed the cell, and the test colonies had negative attributes outside of this, a few even dwindled and died from a neurotic, self-destructive brood removal...

That said, the basic lower level hygienics are more phone to pull and tug, then give up and seal the cell with a very thick layer of wax reducing the transfer of spores... 

The highest number of infected cells within a living colony was a colony of "dead beats" in EU that simply seemed to refuse to clean any thing... this colony had over 4,000 infected cells in it at once and was steadily moving its brood space upwards as if to just cull the infected areas...


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> Did you read the paper?


No WLC, I didn't. Did you read my Post in which I said I couldn't read it? I'm not as skilled and knowledgable in the use of computers as others are. I was hoping you could answer my question and save me some work, by explaining what you meant.

I have never heard of Eric 1 and Eric 2. The Beltsville Bee Lab doesn't distinguish between the two. So, the only real way to address any finding of AFB, especially w/ Lab Confirmation, is to burn it.


----------



## WLC

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2681656/

Try this one.


----------



## WLC

Russ:

By the way, while spores from different strains of AFB may be present in any hive, I would assert that only one type would be actively infectious at any one time.

I have been an adjunct lecturer in Microbiology, and that's usually the case, one strain at a time.


----------



## sqkcrk

Thanks. Which part leads you to believe that burning isn't called for?


----------



## WLC

You read it and tell me.


----------



## sqkcrk

I didn't read it word for word, but I did read most of it. I find your reply typical of those who think it is important for others to figure things out for themselves. "Read my book." Is typical of those who know more than others Lording the fact over those asking questions of them. I love ya W.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

A very famous man who I had the fortune to get to know and talk to as a young man used to take AFB slime and prime queen cells before grafting. This is the direct innoculation method. Not every queen larvae survived the innoculation. The ones that did, their offspring were resistant to AFB because they carried the genetic trait for resistance. Thus the trait was proven to carry on through subsequent crossings of lines of bees. At this time in the industry, AFB was rampant and kicking beekeepers in the butt. The bee became famous as the MRAZ bee and the beekeeper was CHARLES MRAZ-one of the true innovators in American beekeeping. NOW YOU KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY>>>TED


----------



## apis maximus

So, WLC and Russell...two hypotheses on the table...
One in which an infection, clinically manifested, is caused by a particular strain or genotype in this case...and the other where a combination of these genotypes are at play in different hives.
If, only one genotype is the culprit in any one given outbreak, something else would have a role in promoting/sustaining that genotype. 
Starting with the bees themselves, very complex creatures indeed...and who knows how many other things would come into play...and why not the bacteria themselves. Since, according to the article WLC linked, and the references the article has, it is clear that these ERIC classified genotypes, have been evolving since the bees are on this planet. 
Thoughts?


----------



## WLC

Mark, it's in black and white. It's also been referred to by others. Table 1.

The fast strains (Eric II), get cleared quickly (reducing spore load) because the larvae die within 7 days while the cells are still uncapped.

The slower strains (ERIC I) (12 days), aren't cleared and get capped (increasing spore load).

ERIC I and II are the dominant trains.

You can successfully deal with ERIC II strains once you've detected the characteristic infection. 

ERIC I strains are another matter.

Now, unless the DOC is using enterobacterial repetitive intergenic consensus (ERIC) primers, it can be pretty tough to say for sure what's happening strain wise during active AFB infections.

However, it can be argued that ERIC II strains, when identified, don't automatically require that infected hives should be burned or quarantined when detected.

You can likely manage or treat them back to health.

I think that Table 1 can go a long way towards helping a beekeeper decide on which course of action to take.

Local laws don't take strains into account.


----------



## megank

Ted, I knew Mraz developed a afb resistant strain, but I didn't know he purposely innoculated his grafts...That's thinking outside the box. So whatever hppened to his strain?

and on a side note, I think its safe to say that queens are not going to be a vector for new infections


----------



## WLC

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21853316

This is something about to be published on ERIC.

Here's a resource:

http://patricbrc.vbi.vt.edu/portal/portal/patric/Literature?cType=taxon&cId=1464&time=a&kw=none

Have fun.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

You will not get AFB from queens, that I am 99.999 percent certain. His strain was bred into many of the strains of bees we have today. I think one person has the answer what happened to Charlie's resistant bees and who might still have some genetics from them-that is Michael Palmer of Vermont. He knew Mr. Charley a whole lot better than I ever could have just by living in Vermont. So Michael, if you are out there in Cyber land- the question is what did happen to the breeding stock of Mraz AFB resistant Italians? TED


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> You can likely manage or treat them back to health.
> 
> Local laws don't take strains into account.


Thank you. And since they don't, for some reason, isn't it expoditious to procede w/ a burning policy, personally.

"likely"? But can one?


----------



## WLC

As a business practice, you always go for the standard (whatever that may be). That's burning. However, standard practices do change when new information becomes a vailable.

If you can get the spore count low enough, infection can be stopped. Antibiotic treaments can knock out the vegetative cells.


----------



## Oldtimer

megank said:


> and on a side note, I think its safe to say that queens are not going to be a vector for new infections


The common wisdom is that queens do not transfer AFB to the new hive. However I'm not 100% sure it's impossible.

What happens, is if a queen is taken from an infected hive, she may have some AFB spores on her. However while she is in the cage, the nurse bees that are with her clean her and themselves, and consume any AFB spores, rendering them harmless. By the time she is released in the new hive, spore levels are so low they are unlikely to cause an infection.

However I remember a beekeeper from a long time ago, who only had something around 200 hives, but had a lingering AFB problem that never seemed to go away. Whenever he burned a hive, if he thought it had a good queen, he would cage it and introduce it to a split taken from another hive. I've always wondered if that had something to do with him never being able to shake the disease, but I don't know.


----------



## megank

My guess is that if the hive was susceptible to afb, then the genetics of the queens offspring would make the new hive just as susceptible. Just a guess


----------



## rrussell6870

This is true for the most part... as you know, the cells lay dormant until the opportune environment has arisen... the opportune environment is slightly different for each genotype, so even with a community of cells present within the gut of the first larvae, the cells that find the environment to be best suited to their needs will be the ones that feed the most off of the nutrients of the host, thus producing their spores more readily as the host runs out of nutrients... 

During this process, however, the first genotype to find the environment perfect, may in turn create a perfect environment for one or more of the other genotypes that are present... resulting in the production of spores from two or more genotypes at once... the latter to be enriched will of course be in smaller numbers, but will still be there... so the next larvae to become infected runs a possibility of ingesting and thus producing spores of a separate genotype... creating a complex infection within one colony...

This is much more prevalent in the common bee hive than it would be within a lab study of course for several reasons...
1. The exterior environment of the hive is ever changing and infections can take years to move from one cell to another before reaching a dominating threshold... while the exterior environment of the lab is virtually consistent... so the environment being perfect for one genotype can change during the course of the initial infection and become more suitable for the development of a different genotype that is sharing the dormant vessel, (ie. Food stores)...

So at this point, there just isn't enough data to be able to pinpoint a specific genotype as the culprit and develop a more specific recourse based on that knowledge... but I am hoping that one day research will have found a way to promote a lesser of the 4 genotypes and thus lessen the accumulation of the others... as the genome is further sequenced, we may find the information that we need to be able to identify particular traits in honey bees that could lead to resistances that surpass those from before...

Which by the way, thanks Ted for adding that information to the discussion... the Mraz genetics did indeed play a large roll in stopping the great losses of that time... I and many others fear that the scheduled preventative treatment with TM may have weaken those resistances over the years and although the use of this routine is completely understandable, I hope that a broader understanding may help people to test and identify first, then they can either burn or treat infections, without running the risk of losing natural resistances and mutating the cells...


----------



## rrussell6870

As Oldtimer and Ted have pointed out, the way that an afb infection is spread from colony to colony is by the infection (endospores, not vegetative cells in this case) being passed via the robbing of stores or deliberate transfer of infected brood...

Active endospores can be transferred via equipment as well if the infection is advanced... 

A method of salvaging colonies that was (may still be) approved by most was to shake the bees onto new foundation and remove all of the old equipment, stores, and combs... the idea here is that the feed stored in the gut of the bees would be spent in the form of wax production... thus the spores would not be able to be fed to larvae when brood rearing begins again... and by that time all of the stores would be from fresh sources and free of virulent spores... this is somewhat comparable to package bees, with the exception of the wooden ware of the package possibly harboring spores from the production hive to the new hive...

In the case of queens from infected hives, the spores are unable to pass from the queen to the nurses that are feeding her, and the nurses that are caged with her are unable to pass the spores over to nurses that are feeding them through the cage or even after release... thus the spores are safely retained within their guts and will move back to the vegetative cell state there... the amount of spores on there bodies is far too small to be gathered into the collection of one perfectly aged larvae to generate a new infection...

In the case of queens from yards with afb in them, the likelihood of a mating nuc receiving virulent endospores from an infected hives and passing on enough of them on the bodies of the 6-9 bees and 1 queen is so small its unfathomable...

In the case of queens from a yard on one side of the country possibly passing on an infection from three infected hives on the other side of the country is just plain absurd.... 

My next post will be on treatments, burning and the considerations that one should take into account when deciding which course to take...


----------



## rrussell6870

Oldtimer said:


> However I remember a beekeeper from a long time ago, who only had something around 200 hives, but had a lingering AFB problem that never seemed to go away. Whenever he burned a hive, if he thought it had a good queen, he would cage it and introduce it to a split taken from another hive. I've always wondered if that had something to do with him never being able to shake the disease, but I don't know.


I know of a gentleman that had encountered the same type of situation, however, he was not even keeping the queens... it was finally realised that the hives were burned above the soil level and he had been inspecting for it when he was checking supers to see if they were ready to be extracted, thus when he found an infection, the hive that was burned was burned with the supers full of honey on them as well... turns out that the lower melting point of the cappings and the close proximity to the soil of the hives as they were laid over on their backs for burning, allowed the infected honey to escape into the soil where it acted as a protective barrier to spores that were below the effects of the heat... so after he had burned the hive and left, the bees in the yard would take up the honey in the surface of the soil and thus take up the spores along with it... the discovery of this was only made by observing that each spot where he had burned hives would be frequented by bees, even when there was nothing there to forage, and even in the fall when temps would be lower and months had passed since the hives were burned... 

Although it is not a necessity according to most regulations based around burning requirements, I would still always recommend that one either digs a hole to burn hives in so that the ash can be covered with a nice layer of turned earth, or at least covers the area where hives are burned with turned earth to ensure that any remaining endospores are safely buried and the scent of the wax, propolis, and honey is masked by the fresh earth... or at least burn hives in an upright position so that the stores will be effectively consumed by the heat of the fire...

When handling a hive that has an infection, it is also best to sterilize your equipment before leaving the yard and certainly before moving on to inspect the next hive... hive tools can carry more build up than one may expect, and cotton is an exceptional means of holding endospores... although the contaminants are small in numbers, the fact that the carrier agents are fresh and applied directly to the brood areas (such as honey on a hive tool), can lead to spreading the infection from the previous colony...

Lab safety supply (not sure of the web address) is a company that provides good protective gear such as the external clean suits that we use over bee suits or regular clothing, 8 mil vinyl gloves that work well as bee gloves or can be worn over conventional gloves, boot covers, and most importantly surgical scrub containing alcohol in the brand name if Alcare or Anisept...


----------



## Oldtimer

Yes, there are definately some people who seem to have more than their share of AFB, and it is usually down to some kind of carelessness. I even have known someone who has worked as a manager or senior worker for 3 different commercial outfits, and AFB became a big problem in each outfit while he worked in it. Then he started his own beekeeping business and got a major AFB problem in his own hives. At least it was his money down the drain that time, not somebody elses.

So a lot of it is about the beekeeper and his methods.











I've shown this pic on beesource before, but a lot of people here haven't seen it, so here is a picture of a case of AFB in one of my own hives. The way the dead larva is roping out is considered conclusive proof of AFB. The color is also like coffee with milk.
To identify the infected cell in the first place, the capping will usually be slightly sunken or mishapen, often with a hole in it. It will be a little darker than the other cappings, and sometimes have a slightly greasy look. the comb in this pic has a bit of a greasy look, but that is caused by the gasoline I poured in to kill the bees.


Below is what happened next, same day I found the infection. In my country the use of drugs on bees is illegal, any hive discovered with AFB must be burned, by law. At least that removes susceptible hives. It is also prescribed the size of the hole that has to be dug to burn it in, and that it must be covered straight after burning.


----------



## Jim 134

Ted Kretschmann said:


> A very famous man who I had the fortune to get to know and talk to as a young man used to take AFB slime and prime queen cells before grafting. This is the direct innoculation method. Not every queen larvae survived the innoculation. The ones that did, their offspring were resistant to AFB because they carried the genetic trait for resistance. Thus the trait was proven to carry on through subsequent crossings of lines of bees. At this time in the industry, AFB was rampant and kicking beekeepers in the butt. The bee became famous as the MRAZ bee and the beekeeper was CHARLES MRAZ-one of the true innovators in American beekeeping. NOW YOU KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY>>>TED


Champlain Valley Apiaries Established by Charles Mraz (1905-1999), the firm is entering its third generation of proprietorship. Charles’ grandson Charles E. Mraz has moved back to Middlebury from New York City where he has been a senior project supervisor with Sciame Construction Co. Inc. for the past eight years.
Not pictured are the approximately 1200 hives located in the Champlain Valley, from Orwell, VT to the Canadian border.

http://www.champlainvalleyhoney.com/

http://www.champlainvalleyhoney.com/video/vpt.html

BEE HAPPY Jim 134


----------



## MichaBees

So, once you have hives that have been treated with antibiotics, how do you go back into not depending on antibiotics?


----------



## Michael Palmer

Ted Kretschmann said:


> So Michael, if you are out there in Cyber land- the question is what did happen to the breeding stock of Mraz AFB resistant Italians? TED


Unfortunately, Charlie is gone. Gone with him his wisdom and his management in his bees. Before his death in '99, his son Bill took over the management. Bill has since retired...when can you get a retired Mraz to quit working bees...and his son Chaz Mraz has taken over running the apiary. 

To maintain AFB resistance, the bees must be pressured by AFB and they can't be on antibiotics...unless some management like Charlies such as innoculating queen larvae. There is no queen rearing going on now in the Mraz apiary. Bill and now Chaz both use TM. Once Charlie stopped working on his resistant strain, the trait disappeared. I can remember in the 80s when a yard nearby mine was dead or dying and tipped over by the cows and being robbed by the neighborhood. Not a good situation but often how it happens when the primary beekeeper is no longer present in the operation.

The Mraz family still has good bees and still raise all their own stock by walk away splits...in an attempt to maintain their genetic diversity. My mating yard is 3/4 mile south of one of their yards, so I'm getting some of their's in mine.


----------



## honeyshack

WLC said:


> As a business practice, you always go for the standard (whatever that may be). That's burning. However, standard practices do change when new information becomes a vailable.
> 
> If you can get the spore count low enough, infection can be stopped. Antibiotic treaments can knock out the vegetative cells.


Not a chance i would be willing to take. And without lab testing how do you know you have the spore count low enough? By the time the results have been given, the disease could spread to more hives.

On a side note...
I know in Manitoba, and assume in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario and BC, that if a prospective buyer wants to buy bees or hive equipment or extraction equipment, they can call up the provincial apiarist department and ask for any disease history on the seller. As well, at auctions where bees and all bee related equipment is sold, it is posted the disease history of that beekeeper. A beekeeper with the intent to sell hives or packages are the first to be inspected in the spring, with results given to anyone who is looking to buy. As well, if the prospective buyer is willing to buy hives with AFB recent history, that disease history is transfered to the buyer until a minimum of three consecutive years of AFB clean reports.

AFB = Burn. Those who are trying to reinvent the wheel need a history lesson from a beekeeper who was desimated by AFB, and the surrounding beekeepers also had to fight the problem because it spread. Now when i say this, i am not refering to the experienced keepers who are testing isolated quarantened yards for research purposes. I say this to the keepers who find this in their apiary whether they own 1 hive or...hundreds of thousands of hive.


----------



## sqkcrk

I believe that the Apairy Inspection Programs grew out of a need to gain some control on the epidemic numbers of AFB cases in colonies in the early 20th Century. At one time the Beekeeping Industry was a very important part of the Agricultural Industry of the United States.


----------



## WLC

Like I said, the current standard practice is to burn.

However, I wonder what the results of the study I've linked to (but haven't gotten a hold of) might say.

Also, don't forget about the RNAi field trials that are occurring. So, things can change.


----------



## sqkcrk

If one's first inclination is not to burn, then medication would probably be the next thing one might choose to do. Then would come the problem of knowing which colonies to treat and which to burn.

In some cases, very mild cases respond well to being left alone. The one cell infections found in a strong colony. I have seen that happen a number of time. 

When I have inspected colonies and found a colony which had lots of bees and lots of brood and one cell of AFB. I sampled it for Lab Confirmation and Issued a Quarantine and Abatement Order. Weeks later, after Lab Confirmation returned I went to see about arranging a burn. I rechecked the colony and could not find any sign of AFB.

Being as the colony was marked w/ a sticker and by crayon, and knowing the beekeeper, I got approval to leave the colony be and to recheck it later in the season, before it would be moved south. I did recheck and no AFB was present. So, it does happen.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

A simple method other than dig a hole-which is back breaking work in drought stricken soil-is to load the colony up after euthanizing it. Bring it back to the home area and place super by super in a lit burning barrell. The hot wax is an extreme fire, carmelizes, carbonizes all honey in the comb that melts and drips into the fire. The spot of the four way pallet where the colony was sitting is sprayed with a garden sprayer containing bleach. This is allowed to soak into the wood. Thus killing every microbe that was there. Colony has been burned, area it was sitting soaked--end of story, No worries. TED


----------



## rrussell6870

MichaBees said:


> So, once you have hives that have been treated with antibiotics, how do you go back into not depending on antibiotics?


Excellent question and one that I think most have been most curious about... 

A proper treatment of TM during spring and fall can indeed clean up an infection within a hive, but as we all know, that infection can return with the next great stress, such as a full chamber split or heavy mite load... 

So let's look at where the endospores were hiding so that they were unable to be destroyed by the antibiotics... 

The main hiding place is within the stores, honey being the greatest as a bee bread mainly appears to be effected positively by the treatment...

So how could you get ALL of the spores with a treatment when you always have honey within the hive? That basically comes down to timing... of course you would not want to treat during any type of flow and you will want the treatment to go in during the early build up in spring so that it will be taken up immediately by the nurses that in turn will be feeding the brood, but you will always have the concern of that honey that's still capped and going to be fed to the next waves of brood... the fall treatment is not always enough either, and thus the reason that serious infections are better off being burned than treated... for mild infections a treatment may be sufficient, so long as the timing is consistent with the lowest amount of stores and a good nurse presence in order to take in as much of the antibiotics as possible before they lose their effectiveness due to the elements... for a single cell infection, as Mark said, the bees can usually clean it up and only about 1 in 60 cases will actually move from the single cell state to the mild infection state... however, catching a single cell infection is a wonderful opportunity to go ahead and treat in order to keep the infection from having the chance to advance...

About the treatment options...

Burning- the most positive and effective way to remove an infection... as P. Larvae endospores and vegetative cells are both destroyed by the high temperatures of fire, this method will allow you to wash your hands of the matter and sleep well at night... it appears to be costly, but in actuality, the monetary damage is about the same as having to treat 50 hives twice with a high power treatment... so larger operations simply attack the problem at the source and this limits their chances of having to repeat the process in the future... this is especially important when walk away splits are used to make increase... when a split fails to get started, it can be robbed out and thus any hive in the apiary can be taking in the spores if it were from a hive that had been treated, but still had safely hidden spores within its honey stores...

TM- brand: terramycin, active ingredient: Oxytetracycline - this antibiotic is the base for multiple products that are available on the market today and although the label indicates that it is "recommended fro the CONTROL of American Foulbrood caused by Paenbacillus Larvae and European Foulbrood caused by Streptococcus Pluton" (also a large issue with livestock especially chickens)... TM can be obtained in several forms... direct powdered form for very large operations or patty producers, pre-mixed powdered pollen substitutes, and patty form... the heavy use of this antibiotic alone as a prevention instead of treatment over the years has caused some regions to have the genotypes H-1 and H-2 of P. Larvae have developed a substantial resistance to the antibiotic... these resistances are not seen nationwide, but more so in particular sporadic cases... even still, it is a scary thought to consider that the cause of a disease is being made stronger when we are already facing so much stress these days... the many products with this antibiotic in them are relatively inexpensive and easy to use, so many continue to use them as regular preventative instead of inspecting and treating issues when they arise... that said, it is still an effective treatment for single cell to mild infections... so long as the infection is not of endospores from TM resistant P. Larvae...

Tylosin- brand: tylan, active ingredient: Tylosin Tartrate - an antibiotic treatment that was produced in order to address the concerns of the industry after the finding of TM resistances... Tylosin is available currently in only one form, direct powdered form because of its very short shelf life... it is sold in containers of 100g amounts and requires immediate use after the container is opened... Tylosin must be mixed with a carrier agent before it can be administered to colonies as a treatment... the recommended mix is 22#s of powdered sugar to 100g of Tylosin... this is easily mixed in a five gallon bucket and stirred with a mixing bit on a drill... a few tablespoons of the mix is then applied on the top bars of the brood chamber (again not during or right before a flow)... this is repeated every 7 days for 3 treatments...

Heavy treatment- a mix used by many large commercial operations on mild infections... Tetra-Bee mix 2X (produced by dadant) is a powdered pollen sub with an active ingredient of TM at a rate of 5g per pound of mix...22 pounds of this mix is used in place of the powdered sugar in the Tylosin mixture... so the created product is a low grade TM with standard grade Tylosin... a few table spoons of this is dusted along the top bars of the brood chamber and this is repeated every 5 days for 3 treatments... 

Again, by listing the methods used for treating I am not advocating the use of the treatments for any infection levels above a single cell infection... although the treatments can be effective in ridding the colony of an infection without having a return infection, the most important thing is that you learn to identify an infection, inspect thoroughly, and act accordingly when you do get an infection...


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

Robert, let me answer the question for the man in simple terms---You do not....once AFB is found in your operation and you have use antibiotic therapy for cure or clean up. You had best stay on a twice a year antibiotic schedule for prevention. Every now and then we will take a yard or two off the treatment schedule to see what pops up. We destroyed 4 hives this year with the stuff over the entire operation. TED


----------



## sqkcrk

Is it wrong to think of TM or Tylosin as similar to a booster shot? Or like a Flu shot? Do they act in the same way? Perform similar functions?


----------



## WLC

I wouldn't say that antibiotics are like a vaccine. No.

The way bacteria become resistant today is via the transfer of plasmids, small circles of DNA.

So, when you treat with antibiotics regularly, you really are selecting for resistant target bacteria as well as resistant non-target bacteria. They're even discovered that a non target bacterium can transfer resistance to another species, like the target species.

So, even if the target bacteria wasn't present, the non target ones are already resistant and ready to transfer resistance, via a plasmid, to the newly introduced target bacteria.

That's just the way it is.


----------



## sqkcrk

So, then, how do antibiotics work and when should they be used? Because, if one finds AFB, by law, one is suppoased to destroy, not treat the colony.

and I have always wondered about "Resistance". Don't resistant strains of AFB exist regardless of TM use or not? Samples sent to Beltville will be tested for degrees of suceptibility or resistance to TM. Since I don't treat, shouldn't my samples all be suceptible and not resistant? Or does resistance occur naturally in Nature?


----------



## WLC

Why don't you look up how the antibiotics involved work? They basically keep something essential from being made.

Most of the antibiotic resistance plasmids are floating around in bacteria because of artificial selection. We just use antibiotics too often. I wouldn't call it natural.

If you treat, you'll likely select for resistance sooner or later.

What you need to be concerned about are inapparent infections.

For instance, the faster killing AFB types kill the larvae before they are capped, so they get removed. You won't get the tell-tale ropey mess.

So, you might not even know that you need to treat.


----------



## rrussell6870

WLC is correct, the antibiotic will destroy the bacteria that are target as well as those that are non-target... this creates a sudden drop in immune function for most creatures, hence the reason that antibiotics are always prescribed for a period if treatment (length if time)... this helps to ensure an effective kill rate... its important to point out that studies must produce substantial evidence that a certain dosage of medication is tested and proven to be effective with a very high kill rate, usually 95%+ and the industry standard for most pharmaceutical companies is 99.9%+, this is why so many labels at the super market say "kills 99.9% of germs" (ie..clorox spray, lysol spray, etc..)... the reason for the kill rate being such an issue is because anything that is not killed by the product will then have been innoculated by the product, thus resistances can be formed...

So where as the TM is able to kill P. Larvae endospores and vegetative cells, if it is not used at a proper dosage level and proper length of time, it will in turn act as a "flu shot" of sorts for the bacteria to strengthen from, instead of the bees...

Think about how often this occurs and you will get a better idea as to why TM resistant P. Larvae pop up here and there... 

With that in mind, just because a resistant bacteria may be in a hive, does not mean that it will be the resistant bacteria that starts the infection...


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

Thus the preventive measure twice a year. TED


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

I am reminded of this anecdote that everyone's grandparents from the time of Ben Franklin forward love to tell--an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure....TED


----------



## Mbeck

So as I understand it so far.
Treating is playing with fire as it will only in most cases delay the inevitable, except in rare and very mild almost undetectable cases that may have otherwise not become symptomatic?

Treating is only for the very experienced that can identify these cases?

Treat and you get on wagon of treatment and you will have a day of reckoning?

I understand burning to destroy vegetative cells in wax, honey etc. Are there any reasonable ways to treat and sanitize equipment? Bleach on pallet was mentioned.. Would a saturation with a high % hydrogen peroxide work?? I regularly have 35% ( used straight the nails in the wood may cause a fire!!)

Is it just not cost effective to try and save $15 worth of equipment.... Burn baby burn!

With my limited knowledge I'm sure I would just burn and cut my losses... Seems like a pay now or pay later proposition.
Am I following along or way off?

Thanks for the great thread


----------



## rrussell6870

Mbeck said:


> So as I understand it so far.
> Treating is playing with fire as it will only in most cases delay the inevitable, except in rare and very mild almost undetectable cases that may have otherwise not become symptomatic?
> 
> Treating is only for the very experienced that can identify these cases?
> 
> Treat and you get on wagon of treatment and you will have a day of reckoning?


Not quite, but just by concluding that you would simply burn is a step in the right direction! It all boils down to understanding what the threat is, how it works, how to identify it during inspections, and having a strict policy of how to handle it when you run across it... 

The rare cases are not actually the tiny ones like the single cell infections... these are actually more common than most would think, but never manifest as the spores produced from that one infected cell have still got to find their way into the gut of anoyher perfectly aged larvae...

The rare cases are actually those that have spread into more cells and thus multiplied their likelihood of making it into more larvae and the stores... 

Oldtimer gave a wonderful pic of a Rope test identifying an infected cell... so let's use that pic for a scenario... let's say that during that inspection 1 infected cell was found and after thoroughly inspecting ever frame, no other infected cells were noted... keep in mind that more cells COULD be infected but not notable simply because the cell caps had not been pierced and are not sunken in enough to notice... so...

Options...
A. Burn the hive... infection gone and now we just have to clean our tools and everything that had come in contact with the hive...
B. Treat the hive... this may be enough to clean up the infection and have it not return, but it will require the two years (1 to treat and 1 to inspect to make sure no infection returns) before this hive should be put back into production (much like a hospital yard, but leaving the hive in place and just ensuring it stays alive and is not robbed out)...
C. Burn the frame and leave the hive be returning to inspect for the rest of that year and the next to ensure that the hive has truly been able to beat the infection...
D. Burn the frame and the surrounding two frames... again inspecting for two years...
E. Burn the frame and all honey stores found in the hive... again inspecting for two years...
F. Burn the frame and treat...
G. Burn the frame and the surrounding frames and treat...
H. Burn the frame and the stores and treat...

Most of these options will work to control and possibly eliminate the threat without fear of it returning, but they all require a level of effort that most would deem counter productive to option A.

As Michael Palmer mentioned earlier, honey bees cannot be resistant to something unless they are exposed to it... by burning an infected hive, you are reducing the work load and risk, and by treating, you are increasing the work load and risk and lowering you production while raising your labour/time expense....

P. Larvae is in every hive... many seed are intentionally coated with it to benefit the plants growth, so agricultural areas are common spots for high concentrations of it, and guess where most bees are raised...

So if the bacteria that causes the infection is so common, what is the fear factor? Lack of understanding what the infection is, how it works, how to identify it, and how to address it... these are the reasons that afb is a concern and hopefully this thread will help with that.


----------



## deknow

rrussell6870 said:


> ... the reason for the kill rate being such an issue is because anything that is not killed by the product will then have been innoculated by the product, thus resistances can be formed...


Ok, I'm going to disagree with you here.

Populations (bacteria are no exception) exist with a certain amount (more or less) of diversity of traits. Some traits don't matter that much (eye color might impact your choices for a mate, but in this day and age of UV blocking sunglasses and windows, there is little functional advantage of one color over another).

Antibiotic resistance exists within populations of bacteria. Other bacteria, and especially fungi, produce antibiotic substances (penicillin is of course a toxin produced by common bread mold...to inhibit bacterial growth in order to reserve the whole loaf for the fungi)...hence the environmental exposure that selects for resistance to such substances.

But not all traits are equal....antibiotic resistance does actually carry a metabolic cost...the bacteria within the population that has the resistance trait has to work just a little bit harder. It's as if you bought bear insurance for your hives...and assume the insurance is really expensive. If there are no bears in your area, you are going to have trouble competing the other beekeepers in the area that don't have expensive bear insurance to pay for. ...but if the environment changes, if boatloads of bears move in...even if everyone loses all their bees, _you_ had insurance, you can rebuild. Not bears in your area regularly????? Would you pay $1 for bear insurance that would replace your hives? Sure you would! $1000...maybe, if bears were spotted here and there...definitely if you really expected to lose more than a few hives to bears. Antibiotic Resistance is like this...it costs...it has some benefit...more or less depending on the environment.

In complex microbial cultures (like in a beehive...in the beebread, in the honey stomach, in the gut...throughout the digestive tract, in the curing of honey, etc), traits that are being selected for are things like "enough resistance to the toxins my neighbors produce in order to persist" and "not resistant to things that I don't encounter in my environment"...an important one that we sometimes observe not being selected for (when a hive dies of disease/parasite) is "not so successful at competing with my neighbors that I take control...and destroy my own environment...the living hive" (this could be considered a strategy for AFB "persisting" if the colony density is really high and the chance of the collapsing and oozing with AFB hive of being robbed is very high).

To this complex microbial culture, the reality of something appearing on the scene that _can_ kill 99.9% of individuals in a population is outside the normal reality...none of the microbes that are producing antibiotics are growing them in a lab and concentrating the most effective of the diverse toxins and applying them such that they affect the whole of the colony all at once. An unnatural event...with a natural result....it's the 0.1% of the population that harbors traits that render it resistant to one degree or another. 

A wide spectrum antibiotic like TM (and I assume Tylosin is also a broad spectrum) when applied properly (effectively), devastates much of the bacterial components of the culture...leaving open niches (read:food and suitable environment) for whatever is left to suck up...nature abhors a vacuum.

Some of what is left is things that are not susceptible to the treatment....for instance, yeast levels rise when antibiotics are used in bees...and in humans. When Ramona (my wife) covers this in a presentation, she talks about how every time she has had to take an antibiotic for something or other, she predictably gets a yeast infection....this is the cue for all the women in the audience to nod their heads...and they almost all do! {hint for the ladies from Ramona....use a clove of garlic as a tampon for 24 hours...another 24 hours if necessary}

The other thing that is left is the 0.1%....and if the treatment is at all residual in the hive, its offspring is also being selected for resistance for many generations

Between these two "survivor" groups is a race to fill all the available niches...the ones selected for are the ones that are most virulent....the ones that reproduce the fastest and compete the most (like gangs taking over a nearly empty city after a disaster). What climbs back to the top the fastest in a complex culture is not necessarily what you want for a long term stability and strength...the application of antibiotics in the hive disrupts everything, and it isn't clear it returns the way (or "as good as") it was _before_ the application (E.O. Wilson did an experiment where he assayed and depopulated mangrove islands...they returned to their apparent original state fairly quickly....with equal biomass. But, the makeup of that biomass...the insects, the birds, were all different species and in different balances than what had been there previous).

My (rather long winded) point is that no, the bacteria are not "inoculated" by the antibiotic...the resistant individuals in the population are selected for (while the non-resistant ones are "unselected"). I know of some interesting research going on in this area...there is more to learn about the long term impacts of using antibiotics. Much of the immune system of the hive _is_ the microbial culture...the idea that we can successfully micromanage it (with antibiotics are probiotics) seems absurd to me.

deknow


----------



## rrussell6870

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Thus the preventive measure twice a year. TED


To make it more clear, large operations are usually unable to go through every hive frame by frame... although the may take samples from a percentage of the hives in each yard in order to obtain a sufficient statistic of things such as mite counts, detecting a single cell infection of afb in a yard with 100 hives while you have 60 more yards to check is just not feasible...

So for large operations, a rotation of preventative treatments has proven to be effective such as 
TM on years ending with 1,2, 5, and 7, 
then no treatments on years ending in 4, and 8,
then Tylosin treatments on years ending with 3, 6, and 9...

Rotations such as this keep from allowing the levels of infections to get a foot hold, all the while, the operation is also rotating which hives it checks in each yard during its percentage inspections, thus able to locate and destroy any hives with infections that are actually noted, and thus continuing to eliminate trouble points within the operation... the course of which can take many years as the scheduled treating hides troubles that may return if the treatment was halted... that is where the break in years ending on 4 and 8 comes into play... during these years more emphasis is put on inspecting specifically for afb and burning any colonies that are infected... small operations and hobbiest should not limit themselves to this type if routine though, if you have the luxury of being able to inspect all of your hives thoroughly, please do so...


----------



## deknow

I've posted about this before, but I think it belongs here as well.

We've been through Dee Lusby's operation several times over the past few years. I've seen a couple of AFB deadouts in yards with 10-15 other healthy hives (they must have robbed out the deadout).

Dee's method of dealing with AFB is, if there are less than 6 cells of scale on both sides of a frame combined, the frame is left in the hive. Any frame with more than 6 cells is removed (and burned). I will say there is no special handling of the frame...it's tossed in the truck with anything else that will eventually be rendered...not sealed, no separated.

Ramona and I have been through 700 or so hives more than once over a 4 year period (5 visits). 2 AFB deadouts in that time. Some visits we weren't doing proper inspections (just aggressive splits by the box), so we wouldn't see a small or moderate infection...we would look at a not-thriving hive to see what the problem was.

So, she isn't so isolated that there is no exposure to AFB...the bees in the yards with the deadouts are most certainly exposed...and we all know that all hives are exposed.

But

Her infection rate is somewhere around 1% with no antibiotic treatments and no burned hives.

To throw more variables in...

Dee uses all deeps, and does not differentiate between honey comb and brood comb (no treatments, no feeds)...what she extracts from one yard, she replaces (wet) to another yard...sometimes through 3 or more extractions in a season.

deknow


----------



## megank

Gotta agree with deknow when you obtain microbial resistance. Resistance to antibiotics occur when you subject microbes to antibiotics that results in a very high kill ratio. You won't.. well I won't say never...get, resistance when subjecting microbes to a one time sub 99.97% LD, cuz the remaining microbes that simply didn't get a lethal dose will out compete the few that are. Only by killing off those that aren't resistant, the pressures of competition are released to those that are, and the resistant strain fills the vacuum.

However, you will likely obtain resistance to antibiotics by exposing microbes to repeated sub lethal dose simply cuz you're selecting FOR those that are. This is how MRSA came to be and why nosacomal infection are so dangerous. 

Truth be told it's quite remarkable it took so long for p. bacillus to develop actual resistance to TM.


----------



## rrussell6870

Gee thanks Dean, that first post is too long for me to quote and break up from my cell. Lol. 

Ok, we are saying the sane thing, I think I may have just worded it a bit off in the manner of making the comparison of selection and inoculation...

You are exactly right about the effects of the antibiotics wiping the slate clean of all that is exposed to the treatment, Except for what has resistances... which in turn promotes the resistant strains as they no longer have to compete within the colony for hosts... the event that creates a situation which is I am comparing to inoculation occurs during the months following the effects of the treatment... when the colony has once again become home to the bacteria that is not resistant... these bacteria are now within an environment that is comprised of heavy densities of TM resistant bacteria, and thus the higher risk of the once non-resistant bacteria building resistances by the transfer of plasmids due primarily to the environment that was created by the initial treatment removing all of the non-resistant bacteria and thus promoting a large population of resistant bacteria... tough to explain in further detail while typing on a cell phone, but I think you have the idea... 

The resistant bacteria is promoted (filling all of the voids left by the removal of the non-resistant bacteria)... then not only do we have a high social colony of resistant bacteria, but we also have the chance that these resistance traits can be passed on to what was once non-resistant bacteria through plasmids... then we are also unlocking possible resistance traits that were already present but not in use anymore due to a long term friendly environment... so yes, the new population can be worse than the first and I love the analogy of the gangs taking up a city after a disaster... 

Yes, there are many, many things that are thrown off balance by the use of antibiotics and yeast is certainly one of them...(ps, I have always recommended that yogurt be eaten on a scheduled basis while on antibiotics, with a higher number of servings per day for higher doses/stronger forms... some may not like yogurt, but its got to be more comfortable that a garlic clove... ;-) its also helpful for men and children to help restore the balance of digestional cultures during and following a treatment of antibiotics...

You also brought up an point that needs to be made about nutrition and balance of enzymes... keeping in account that there are many different types of operations out there, and not all are concerned about the internal health of hives, so long as they are alive and productive, and that's not being negative toward them because that is what their bees are used for and they serve that purpose... but there are others (myself included) that focus primarily on what makes a colony the healthiest and most productive that it can possibly be and how can I harness that and reproduce the effects... so for those that are in operations that are focussed on identifying and selecting for traits such as a breeder should, take note that the single most important thing you can do is to eliminate the human variable... to produce queens is simple, anyone can graft and mate queens with time and patience, but to be able to select from your colonies which will be the best to provide larvae and which will be the best to provide drones, and which will be the best to provide traits for this type of operation or in that climate, you must first get your colonies to a true state of health in which they would be expected to perform in once the customer receives them... virulent issues plague our industry not only because we keep bees in "cities" as opposed to their natural environment, but also because we select for bees that do well on syrup and substitutes instead of the ones that do well on the diet that they will be working on when they are put to the real test, which is not only the customers hive, but also the customers future generations...


----------



## rrussell6870

megank said:


> However, you will likely obtain resistance to antibiotics by exposing microbes to repeated sub lethal dose simply cuz you're selecting FOR those that are.


This one I can quote.  you are exactly right. Thank you. That is what I was saying about the effects of using a proper dosage for the proper period vs using a patty with a sublethal dose on hives that didn't have a problem to begin with... by doing so the effect will produce a harder target if an infection does occur down line...


----------



## Fusion_power

The major problem I see with this thread is that infected combs have not been dealt with.

I had AFB in my bees one time, the one time that a commercial beekeeper gave me some old equipment including frames to get started. Those frames were infected with afb scales. When I put some nice Italian bees on them, in 3 months, they had a major AFB infection. Needless to say, the commercial beekeeper was on the TM bandwagon with twice a year treatments. He never had AFB in his colonies.... or so he claimed.

I found AFB in another beekeepers bees when I bought out his operation 20 years ago. The AFB was limited to a single yard. I refused to take any of the colonies from that location (only 6 colonies so no major loss) and when I went through the rest of the colonies and spare equipment I bought, I culled and burned all poor condition woodenware and I cut comb out of the good stuff and put it through a flame and heat cleansing. I did not get any disease in my bees from the purchase. The viable colonies were all carefully inspected, requeened, and started on a cycle of renewing brood combs.

I found AFB in a friends bees when he purchased some colonies from a TM twice a year beekeeper. He did not treat and after 12 months, he had a colony totally rotten with AFB which he had not found because he did not know what it was.

At this point, I have not seen AFB in 15 years. I keep between 5 and 20 colonies of bees. They are thoroughly inspected 2 or 3 times per year. they have not been treated with TM or with Tylosin or with any mite control or SHB control products in the last 6 years. So far, they are thriving. I am a firm believer in rotating out old combs. A comb that is 5 years old should be removed from the broodnest and replaced with a clean frame with foundation. Any time a comb is in poor condition, I replace it. As I say this, I have one colony in the process of replacing 3 combs. The goldenrod flow is almost over and aster is supporting the comb building.

My take on this is that I will never buy bees on drawn comb except where I can personally inspect the colonies and know for sure they have not been treated with antibiotics within the last 6 months. I have absolutely no concern over transmitting AFB with purchased queens except in one very specific circumstance. That is when the queen cage candy has been made with honey. You would be surprised how many queen producers do this. Next time you order queens, ask!

Does this mean I don't have AFB right now? Nope. As discussed numerous times in recent threads, the spores are everywhere. All it takes is letting your guard down for a few months and doing a few unnecessary "stressful" things to a colony and you can trigger an infection.

Since mites decimated feral colonies, the infection rate for AFB has nosedived. Then again, the number of managed colonies nosedived at the same time so there may be more factors in play than just loss of feral colonies.

Hygienic bees can clean up an AFB infection. This has been proven repeatedly. As also mentioned by RRussell, you can have bees that are too hygienic. The key is to have enough highly hygienic bees in a colony to keep diseases and pests under control without compromising the colony otherwise.

DarJones


----------



## WLC

'P. Larvae is in every hive... many seed are intentionally coated with it to benefit the plants growth...'

I was unaware of this practice.

As for what would constitute a vaccine...That's RNAi. It's a form of molecular immunity.

How do you deal with problems associated w/ human antibiotic use? Probiotics. I use Jarrow's 'Jarro-Dophilus: EPS'.

I don't know if there is something similar that you can do for Honeybees, Like 'honeybee probiotics'.


----------



## Michael Palmer

rrussell6870 said:


> 2. The P. Bacillus that is in every bee colony is not the spores, but rather the vegitative cells...


If I haven't had any Foul in many years, burned anything I ever found, and don't use antibiotics, can this be true?


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

WLC, sounds like a new business for you to start up--Probeeiotics inc. IF we only knew what is considered good bacterium in a beehive. Treatment with antibiotics gives the operator a fall back position. Yes, we treat as a preventative as stated earlier. I nor you know what our fellow beekeepers in the area we keep bees in have in their colonies. Just good common sense-fifteen cents worth of preventative treatment or 150.00 worth of colony and equipment up in smoke. When some of you non treatment people finally burn a few colonies-not one, but many, then you will change your tune. TED


----------



## wildbranch2007

i had saved the following information some time ago, the original document has gone missing where I read it. I found this part of the reaserch interesting.

The proventriculus filters the nectar and removes debris such as pollen 
grains and the fungal spores that cause foul brood. A valve at the bottom 
of the proventriculus prevents the filtered nectar from entering the bee’s 
digestive system, but allows the debris removed from the nectar to pass 
into the bee’s alimentary canal and into the intestines where it is first 
stored then later voided from the rectum. 

Testing the speed and efficiency in which an introduced contaminate passes 
thru the digestive system might be the best method for determining which 
lines have a well developed proventriculus. 

THE R-VALUES OF HONEY: POLLEN Coefficients
source. 

so it was my thinking that some number of spores(but if I remember correctly there was a corrections as the word spores was the wrong word to use but can't remember the correct word as I have it dated as june 2006. so the bees would naturally remove some number of the spores as part of normal digestion? anyone know how to turn off this auto save feature that started a while ago, causes me nothing but grief(off topic)


----------



## honeyshack

Fusion_power said:


> I am a firm believer in rotating out old combs. A comb that is 5 years old should be removed from the broodnest and replaced with a clean frame with foundation. Any time a comb is in poor condition, I replace it.
> 
> Does this mean I don't have AFB right now? Nope. As discussed numerous times in recent threads, the spores are everywhere. All it takes is letting your guard down for a few months and doing a few unnecessary "stressful" things to a colony and you can trigger an infection.
> 
> DarJones


I do not remember if some of the teachers of this afb thread...rrussell or sqkcrk, too many to mention, but you know who you are, really talked on comb replacement as a form of disease control. I think, personally, it is one of the easiest things we can do to lower the risk of some of the potential diseases in our hives. 
Many times I have talked with beekeepers about comb replacement. The biggest draw back they see is cost of a frame...the purchase price, the putting together and the drawn wax. To them, that is money invested in the hive. But i look at the cost of what happens if that comb does not get replaced. Dark, thick walled, frames with dead spots...you know the spots... where the bees can not clean or the queen can not use, or the hive tool can not scrape off cause it is too dang hard... this can cost more money.
My husband laughs at me now, a few years ago he would try and convince me "this frame is good"..."what is wrong with this frame?"...now he just goes with the flow and has a good laugh cause in the spring, and during extraction, I build quite the towers of pallets with frames to send to the renderer. The money I get from rendering pays for new frames to build. Not everyone has a renedering plant close, and that is sad, but even so, we need to take the time to remove comb from production.

Constant comb replacement is one of the most simple tools at our disposal...we should use it more.

Thoughts on the rambling of a young commercial beekeeper?...

PS... thanks for this thread...learning alot


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> Why don't you look up how the antibiotics involved work? They basically keep something essential from being made.
> 
> So, you might not even know that you need to treat.


A. We seem to have a difference of opinion on what this Forum is for. I come here in search of answers. You seem to think I should go find the answers myself somewhere else. I can only imagine what it must be like for a Student of yours who doesn't understand something which you spoke of in Lecture. But thanks.

B. "So you might not even know that you need to treat."? Huh? You seem to be of a mind that treatment, the use of antibiotics, is not a good thing. So why do you even bring up the idea of "not even know[ing] you need to treat"? 

Do you think AFB should be treated? When? Under what conditions?


----------



## sqkcrk

rrussell6870 said:


> As Michael Palmer mentioned earlier, honey bees cannot be resistant to something unless they are exposed to it...


W/ the presence of one colony w/ AFB in it, is that what you would call exposure? Is that exposure to the rest of the colonies in the Apiary, enuf to test honeybee resistance?

Having, years ago, Inspected Mike Palmer's colonies, and never finding any AFB, as far as I can recall, where is the exposure?

There are many other beekeepers who I could mention who either have no detectable cases of AFB which an Apiary Inspector would find, or they are really good at getting those cases out of their Bee Yards. So where is their exposure?

I also know of a sizeable operation which went unworked for a number of years due to an aged beekeeper's neglect. Senility gets the best of us. When a friend of mine took control/purchased the operation there were many cases of AFB. So, I would say his whole operation was well exposed to AFB in colonies and equipment transfer. Finding any today is not more the norm than it was before he acquired said operation.

But, maybe I am not understanding exposure as Doc and Mike are refering to it. Are y'all refering to exposure to AFB in the Breeding process? The selection process?


----------



## rrussell6870

Michael Palmer said:


> If I haven't had any Foul in many years, burned anything I ever found, and don't use antibiotics, can this be true?


Sure can. I will see if I can find some info on the web about the test results that give notation to just how abundant the vegetative cell counts were found to be within feral colonies in isolated areas as well as those that were found in locations such as hollow trees, bird nests, and hornet nests... interesting read, just not sure if its on the web... 

The findings really were useful in determining that an actual infection is quite a rare p henomenon and requires a stressor in most cases to amplify the possibility of the cells ending up in the gut of a larvae at a high enough level and under the right conditions, then once endospores are produced, the likelihood of the spores finding their way into yet another larvae is multiplied but still requires a great deal of chance... with each larvae that becomes infected (thus produces endospores) the likelihood of the spores reaching another larvae is multiplied and the amount of "chance" that is required is lessened...

The endospores are tenacious and can withstand many conditions that the vegetative cells cannot... thus once a strong infection has had a chance to produce spores that contaninate stores in a hive, equipment, honey house equipment, boxes, etc, the spores may be found in multiple hives but the cross contamination still requires the spores to find their way into the gut of a perfectly aged larvae at high numbers before an infection can occur... with spores being stronger, they do not require quite as perfect of an environment before they can become virulent, thus the presence of spores in a yard increases the risk of infection quite a bit more than the commonly found vegetative cells...


----------



## rrussell6870

wildbranch2007 said:


> so the bees would naturally remove some number of the spores as part of normal digestion?


There are actually a few studies currently running about this... one in particular is quite interesting to me as it focuses on the rolls of a certain percentage of bees within each colony that tend to maintain a high body temperature... the findings of the research that you are speaking about showed that a method of naturally limitating both vegetative cells and endospores within the colony was to capture it in feces preventing any further spread... this may not happen as a response to any infection, but rather just a helpful mechanism... this research has led to more research into the possibilty of using manipulations to get the bees to consume stores within a mildly infected hive, then follow up with a dose of a substance that acts as a stool softener... to my knowledge, the results of this study are not published yet...


----------



## rrussell6870

Honeyshack and fussion power, I think we should start a thread directly related to the pros and cons of comb culling and the exchange processes that different people use... one thing that does indeed show promise for some is that by removing excessively aged comb, they can be removing spores that were locked away in the cocoons... only to be released directly into a braid area with the accidental scrape or puncture of a hive tool... not such an issue it would seem for the hive, but by being directly within the brood comb, the area where the spores are released can then have an egg (or 20 for that matter) laid in it, then jelly added, and thus the spores are in the jelly being consumed by the larvae... increasing chances of infecting that cell...

Of course, I love my really old combs... lol. I guess they are somewhat of a novelty to me... but I do indeed try to cycle out older combs by a gradual replacements system as well as by splits of course... as a major comb manipulator, I need access to the brood chamber and good strong combs that can handle a little snatching and shoving... so I prefer them to be aged at least a few years before they get to that "sweat spot" of being preferred by the queen and bee keeper alike...


----------



## rrussell6870

sqkcrk said:


> W/ the presence of one colony w/ AFB in it, is that what you would call exposure? Is that exposure to the rest of the colonies in the Apiary, enuf to test honeybee resistance?
> 
> Having, years ago, Inspected Mike Palmer's colonies, and never finding any AFB, as far as I can recall, where is the exposure?
> 
> There are many other beekeepers who I could mention who either have no detectable cases of AFB which an Apiary Inspector would find, or they are really good at getting those cases out of their Bee Yards. So where is their exposure?
> 
> I also know of a sizeable operation which went unworked for a number of years due to an aged beekeeper's neglect. Senility gets the best of us. When a friend of mine took control/purchased the operation there were many cases of AFB. So, I would say his whole operation was well exposed to AFB in colonies and equipment transfer. Finding any today is not more the norm than it was before he acquired said operation.
> 
> But, maybe I am not understanding exposure as Doc and Mike are refering to it. Are y'all refering to exposure to AFB in the Breeding process? The selection process?


The exposure that I was referring to was to the naturally present P. Larvae bacteria within the hives and the occasional single cell infection if/when it occurs (with the understanding that the single cell infection does not spread into even a mild infection running the chance of the infection getting out of control... some single cell infections are never noticed (probably much more than we realise), and bees that are able to address the issue by sealing the infected larvae or remove it early enough are better suited for handling early stage infections before they get out of hand...

Of course, any infections noted in an operation that is not based on the function of identifying traits and promoting the good ones while culling the bad ones should be addressed properly... 

The level of exposure should thus be rated by the level of infection and modes of control rather than the number of infected colonies... if a colony has an infection of any level and is not addressing the threat, then the exposure is not being effective as the response trait can not be used to gain ground by promoting it...

So when a honey producer purchases an operation with afb infections and thus active spores mixed throughout multiple colonies, the producer can expect to have to aggressively address the issue and identify trouble colonies over time and remove them (burning)... the mere presence of the infection does no good without 1. The colonies being able to resolve the problem on their own. And 2. The operation being capable and actively working to identify the control traits and cull the non-controlling traits... 

I hope that makes sense...


----------



## Riskybizz

Russell

I have a couple questions. Several weeks ago I had an interesting debate regarding the accepted practice (in some states) of shaking afb infected colonies onto new foundation and new equipment allowing them to supposedly burn up the spores while drawing out new wax onto the foundation. My question is how effective is this practice? What is the likelihood and percentage of reoccurrence with these colonies? Has research and field studies been proven to show that this is a safe practice? You mentioned this in one of your earlier posts.


----------



## Fusion_power

> as a major comb manipulator, I need access to the brood chamber and good strong combs that can handle a little snatching and shoving... so I prefer them to be aged at least a few years before they get to that "sweat spot" of being preferred by the queen and bee keeper alike


This is one place we will have to agree to disagree. I see the benefits in colony health from having routinely renewed comb.

On the other hand, I cut a bee tree quite a few years ago where the combs were so old that they were literally hard as rocks. I had to use a hatchet to chop the combs out of the tree. They did not crumple or tear, they broke like pieces of pottery. I could only guess at the age, but based on the buildup of cocoons, they were probably in the range of 50 years old.



Re shaking infected colonies out and placing them on foundation, I always took the view that if you burn the colony, you eliminate the source of the problem. I would not use the shakeout method. Others may disagree.

DarJones


----------



## Mbeck

Can we back up?
Do you peel the garlic?
How about pesto would that work(it has alot of garlic)?

Unfortunately that "bit" of wisdom probably replaced something I really needed to know!


----------



## apis maximus

Riskybizz said:


> Has research and field studies been proven to show that this is a safe practice?


It appears, in Denmark the shaking method has been used for quite a while.
Here is a 2003 published study:
http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/articles/2003/hansen_1.pdf


----------



## rrussell6870

Riskybizz said:


> Several weeks ago I had an interesting debate regarding the accepted practice (in some states) of shaking afb infected colonies onto new foundation and new equipment allowing them to supposedly burn up the spores while drawing out new wax onto the foundation. My question is how effective is this practice? What is the likelihood and percentage of reoccurrence with these colonies? Has research and field studies been proven to show that this is a safe practice?


This method was allowed by many for a long time, although I am not sure who all allows it today... the risk level of reinfection is mostly dependant upon the degree of the infection within the original colony and the method used for transferring the bees... 

For example, if the colony has an infection level of six or less infected cells, and the method of transfer is to shake all of the bees from the colony on to the ground in the pre-daylight hour about 6 feet in front of the entrance of the new equipment which is placed in the same location as the removed hive was (with the understanding that any palletized bottom boards would not be allowed in this process), and the combs with infected cells were burned bees and all instead of shaken along with the others, the chance of reinfection was very low... like 1 in 50 or so... 

However, if the bees were shaken directly over the new equipment, the frames with infections were shaken as well, and the infection levels were more than six infected cells, the chances for reinfection were much, much higher... 

The process works by taking away all if the stores, brood, wax, and equipment that is harboring spores... the bees digest all of the feed that was already inside of them instead of feeding it to brood or storing it in cells and thus the spores inside of them safely remain... while the spores on the exterior of their bodies are the only ones left that could possibly reach the proper aged brood to start a new spore producing infection... as these bees are dying off and switching duties quickly, they are carrying away a large portion of the endospores with them... this the hive soon get a level of spores that is far fewer than the original hive had vegetative cells before the infection...

It's all about percentages and possibilities, so the methods were based on limiting as many spores from the original hive from transferring to the new equipment as possible... 

I have seen it work when done properly, and I have seen it work when done improperly, but then again, I have seen it fail as well...


----------



## rrussell6870

Mbeck said:


> Can we back up?
> Do you peel the garlic?
> How about pesto would that work(it has alot of garlic)?
> 
> Unfortunately that "bit" of wisdom probably replaced something I really needed to know!


Try yogurt... if the treatment duration is for ten days, eat 3 containers of yogurt a day (1morning, 1 noon, and 1 night)... for the entire duration plus an additional 5 days afterwards... 

Acidophilus can be taken instead... this comes in a milk form as well as a pill form...


----------



## Riskybizz

Thank you Russell:

What about feeding sugar syrup during this process to this ‘shook colony” Will the spores be stored and viable in the syrup as they are in honey stores? 20 years ago our operation in Virgina had an outbreak after we purchased some nucs from Florida and brought them back. The inspectors at the time permitted us to shake the bees onto clean equipment and foundation. We found this to be successful less than 50% of the time. As a result we went back and burnt everything that was possibly infected.


----------



## rrussell6870

Riskybizz said:


> What about feeding sugar syrup during this process to this ‘shook colony” Will the spores be stored and viable in the syrup as they are in honey stores?


This brings up a point that I had forgotten to mention... thank you for bringing it to my attention...

The intent of the shake out is to reduce as many possible transferring spores as possible... honey and syrup are both excellent reservoirs for spores to reside in and of course, they are the initial site for an infection to occur because it is this that is being used to produce food for the young brood that are at risk of becoming spore producing vessels...

As such, frame style feeders, pouring feed directly on the top bars or bottom, and top feeders will increase the chance of reinfection greatly as opposed to a lite flow which is optimal...

The surface area of the syrup within the hive is a place for spores to reside, especially when there are bees falling in with spores on their bodies...

The increased amount of feed available at once will also promote faster comb building and even storing more than they must use up immediately, thus getting stores in the hive before the older bees have died off carrying away the spores that were on their bodies with them...

The best situation is a lite flow with which they will recover slower and will require more fuel to be used in order to gather it, this keeping them from storing much or any before a good percentage of the spore carrying bees have died off...

The second best situation is a trickle feeder, such as a mason jar with a few tiny holes in the top, inverted through a hole in the top... this limits the surface area of the syrup to a hole that they must stick their tongues in to reach... it also only allows a few bees to access the feed at a time, so the income is reduced to a very low rate and thus gives more time for the reduction of older bees and little or no stores can be produced...

These methods may very well limit the possibility of reinfection even more and bring the average rate of successful transfers without infection way up... hope this helps...


----------



## Riskybizz

Robert

Thank you, your posts and answers to my questions have been extremely helpful. In all honesty I would not use the shaken method again in my current apiaries. I do appreciate the ammunition thought, to better understand the process and enter into my next discussion should the need arise. Your modern day approach and technical explanations are well written and easy to understand. Your expertise is very much appreciated. I am also looking forward to using some of your sunkist queens in a new yard i'm establishing this spring. Thanx again.


----------



## Oldtimer

Thanks for that study Apis Maximus.

Couple of things not immediately apparent unless you read the whole article.

Of the 12 hives they tried shook swarming on, all of them it worked, ie, the shaken hive did not develop symptoms.

But they did go on to say, that they have discovered a strain of bee in their country, that seems to have "lost their resistance" to AFB, and shook swarming was not successful with this strain.

Also, they did not say how badly infected the hives were that were shook swarmed. A hive with one or two infected cells, is much more likely to be shook swarmed with good results, than one that is rotten with the disease and many bees likely to have AFB "goo" stuck on their bodies.

Back around a century ago in my country, there was a major AFB epidemic, which got up to around 30% of hives in the country. At that time the country was quite "new", and no beekeeping legislation existed. We are an agricultural country, bees were considered important, so the government decided to enact drastic legislation. The common practise of shook swarming was made illegal, as it was believed a small % of these hives later showed the disease. A mandatory inspection program was set up, and infected hives had to be burned, no antibiotic treatment allowed. 

In just a few short years, we dropped to one of the lowest infection rates in the world. Of course all beekeepers were on side with the program, as some had been on the brink of disaster.

Having said that, I can remember a time when I hived a swarm, then looked at the hive it came from, and Yikes! AFB!! Just after I put the swarm in new gear.
I burned the AFB hive that evening, but decided to leave the swarm to see if it would get AFB, it never did.


----------



## WLC

'WLC, sounds like a new business for you to start up--Probeeiotics inc.'

Ted:

I've got a student working on the bio-ceramic hive. The materials that we need have arrived. 

If we can control what can grow by controlling the physical and chemical properties of the bio-ceramic hive components, then we can control what can grow on them.

Think of it as 'induced' probiotics.

I hope that you remember the four deeps you offerred to host.


----------



## max2

I had AFB a short while ago. I burned all the frames and some of the supers, lids and bottoms. The rest is stored in large, strong plastic bags - waiting for me to make a decision what to do.
Robert gives us some choices. In Australia antibiotics are not permitted. Legally we need to burn or irradiate. I'm surprised that irradiation has not come up in discussion?
I have also heard - but this is not an offical suggestion - that dipping boxes in a 3% chlorine solutions ( 1/4 strength pool chlorine) would kill the lot. Not sure if this is an option?
I have been very careful - cleaning tools, washing beesuit, returning frames back to the original hive. Fact is that as part of normal work some interchange happens.
Often I read in these forum pages that people leave frames and extractors, even cappings out for the bees to clean up. Surely this is a perfect way to spread AFB?

The contributions by Robert and all have been very helpful.
I would very much appreciate any suggestion regarding post AFB steps? I have to assume that some frames still carry the spores.
Burn all equipment ( some near new boxes)? Dip in chlorine and re-paint? Irradiate?( expensive and far away) and how to prevent another outbreak?
I have checked all brood and it all seems healthy. Thanks for the suggestions.


----------



## Oldtimer

Max, like you, our country does not permit the use of antibiotics on bees.

If your law says burn everything, then you should do so.

When a hive has afb, the whole hive should be regarded as infected. Bleach can destroy the afb spores, but if the spores are encapsulated somehow where the bleach doesn't get to them, the disease can recur. If you are willing to take the risk, your call. But it can be heartbraking to have to burn your hives again, after you've rebuilt.

Early last year I had an afb outbreak ended up burning four hives I'd only built a few months before. But this year, no afb. All infected material was destroyed, and I felt the pain. But this year, done, dusted, no worries.


----------



## David LaFerney

Our state laws also require AFB infected colonies to be burned - and coincidentally it seems to be relatively well controlled here. Local lore says that bleach won't work to disinfect AFB infected equipment - which has always sounded fishy to me - and it is generally seen as a commandment to never take in used equipment unless it's populated by healthy bees. But if a bleach soak actually is effective then it could really mitigate that rule of thumb.

So, does bleach kill AFB spores or not?


----------



## max2

oldtimer - I think I will follow your advice and burn all the boxes et al. I'm leaving for OS tomorrow and will keep the gear stored in strong plastic bags while I'm away and do the deed when I'm back. It is very likely that another hive or more will be affected and I guess I will find out when I go through all the brood yet again.

As I mentioned before - we don't feed honey back, I don't switch frames after extraction, I heat treath the metal excluders...hygiene is pretty good but there are times when some frames need to be switched around as normal practice.
One weak link I may have are the AJ beetle traps. I change them quite regularly. I take them out when propolis is an issue ( about every 3 weeks) and clean them - and after they may very well go back into a different hive. As they are plastic I can not heat them to destroy spores and I wonder how others deal with traps? They cost $ 5.00 each and I use two per hive. Rather expensive to dispose of them after each use. Any suggestions?


----------



## max2

So, does bleach kill AFB spores or not? or chlorine? 
I would have expected that some trials would be done by now.


----------



## Oldtimer

The trials have been done. I am an afb inspector for our government. My training is to use bleach to disinfect my gear etc as it kills afb spores. Chlorine I don't know, although isn't it basically bleach?

Bleach can also be used to disinfect hive parts, the only risk being the afb spores in the bits the bleach doesn't get to. In some circumstances this is legal in my country but personally I wouldn't do it on my own gear, too much to maybe loose down the road.

About your beetle traps. Clean them thoroughly and treat with bleach, should be fine. Don't get too worried about your other hives just yet. Although afb is a serious disease, it is also surprisingly hard to infect another hive. But as you have been interchanging gear, thoroughly inspect the other hives and also be aware that afb does not always show up immediately. You should attempt to keep each hive quaranteed from each other for 12 months, plus keep a close eye on them during that time.


----------



## max2

Oldtimer you are a bearer of good news!!
I have to get some bleach ( does it come in different strengths?) and I will quaranteen the hives. I have been switching tools betwen hives, sterilize by by heating in burning Metho, and then using them again.
I have kept bees for more then 30 years. Now, in semi retirement. I have been looking forward to spending my time mostly between garden and bees - and then this! I have been reading extensively ( and talking to beekeepers and our inspector) and this forum seems the most helpful. Beekeepers often admit that they had afb but for commercial reasons they do want to keep it quiet

Thanks Oldtimer and I will keep a close eye or two on the hives ...and hope for the best!


----------



## Oldtimer

The supermarket bleach is cheap, and comes in a concentration often of 3%. Mix it 1 part bleach to 4 of water, and soak your cleaned traps in it for a few minutes.


----------



## max2

Oldtimer said:


> The supermarket bleach is cheap, and comes in a concentration often of 3%. Mix it 1 part bleach to 4 of water, and soak your cleaned traps in it for a few minutes.


I'm doing all this right now...and hope it will work. Thanks.
PS what is the most humane way to kill bees eg in the case of having afb?


----------



## Oldtimer

At night, lift the lid and pour some petrol in. The fumes kill them and it's all over in probably less than a minute.


----------



## max2

Oldtimer said:


> At night, lift the lid and pour some petrol in. The fumes kill them and it's all over in probably less than a minute.


I assume you would close the entrance? I hope I don't have to do it...


----------



## Oldtimer

The petrol works so fast, if you are quick with the lid & don't disturb the bees (till it's too late), you can get away without blocking the entrance.


----------



## Yehoshua

This has been a very interesting read. Thanks to all for the info! 
I have 2 hives right next to each other, the Italian hive is riddled with AFB, the Carniolan hive 2 feet away has not a trace of (visible) infection. I spent the weekend burning boxes. A couple question: 1) anyone think that Italians might be more susceptible to it than other strains, or is this just more likely a coincidence? 2) If the spores basically live forever, what do you about the dirt in the field around the hive?


----------



## Michael Bush

>anyone think that Italians might be more susceptible to it than other strains, or is this just more likely a coincidence? 

If you bought the bees from the same source the odds are the queens are sisters and they have a genetic weakness for AFB. The connection is probably not that they are Italians, but because they are sisters.


----------



## Oldtimer

Italians are more prone to robbing other hives and thus susceptable to entering hives weakened by AFB. However in terms of actual resistance both carniolan and italain may or may not have it in various amounts and mechanisms.

Re the dirt, I have seen hives kept where other hives have died from AFB and not get it. However there may be a comfort factor and it could be a good plan, in moving the hive, or saturating the ground with bleach.


----------



## Fusion_power

If you cull through the posts in this thread, you might note that bees reported to be highly varroa tolerant seem to also be highly unlikely to get AFB. The tie in with hygienic behavior is obvious.

DarJones


----------



## sqkcrk

Yehoshua said:


> 1) anyone think that Italians might be more susceptible to it than other strains, or is this just more likely a coincidence? 2) If the spores basically live forever, what do you about the dirt in the field around the hive?


There is nothing one can do or needs to do about the soil around the hives.

I have no reason to think Italians are more suseptible to AFB than any other strain of bee. I do wonder where you got your equipment from? 

Being a first poster here, how long have you had bees?
How did you determine it was AFB? What signs did you see?
Did you buy a package of bees and put them on foundation or comb?
Did you buy a nuc? Most infections are bought. Unbeknownst to the seller usually. Or transfered unbeknownst to the beekeeper making the split.


----------



## Yehoshua

I've only been keeping bees for a couple years, but it was definitely AFB, classic in symptoms from everything I've read and every Youtube clip – the smell, the sunken caps, the brown rope - but to be sure I had someone more experienced come and check it out to confirm. Not clear where it could have come from: I bought a package, put them on mostly new foundation, partly on comb left over from last year from a hive that died for other reason (no AFB, but a swarm followed by laying workers that I didn't notice until it was too late).


----------



## max2

jrbbees said:


> Thanks Russell,
> You are blessing us. Would we have some one do this for every problem we are facing.
> Moderators: Can this become a sticky or something always at the top?


This was a very interesting thread but it seems to have died? maybe worth a re-read?


----------



## Eduardo Gomes

This year I'm doing the following: I have a bucket of water and bleach where I put the tools when I get the apiary. Are disinfected daily.

I did not know that petrol is a fast and effective method to kill the bees inside the hive with AFB .

Thank you all: a very informative thread .


----------



## apis maximus

max2 said:


> This was a very interesting thread but it seems to have died? maybe worth a re-read?


Good things always die. First. We just do not notice it. Full speed ahead baby.:banana:
But, hope is not lost. Looks like some wanderers out there in the world of bees, are still in searching mode. Cool.


----------



## Sasha

Maybe not bad but not really necessary. The reason number 1 for spreading AFB is transfering frames and other equipment between hives, number two robbing of infected hives.

There is a good NZ book about AFB. Highly recommended.
https://mrkailo.wordpress.com/2014/08/11/knjiga-o-atl/


----------



## twgun1

I have not read through this ENTIRE thread but most of it....there is much debate on "disinfecting" boxes (not frames) and what works and what doesn't work, whether it's worth it. Views from every perspective and management style have been listed. Not once did I see someone mention mechanically covering up the spores (i.e. oil or shellac based paint) I'm a veterinarian, we have a disease called coccida whose spores are nearly impossible to destroy BUT you can physically paint over the spores (for example, in a farrowing crate for hogs) to seal them in effectively "cleaning" up the environment and retaining valuable equipment.. Obviously, we don't traditionally paint the inside of bee hives but we know bees will set up home in about anything. Why not paint any suspect wooden ware?

I've recently had AFB diagnosed in a dead out single hive in my back yard. SO I'm in a fact-finding/researching stage. Everything in my affected hive already destroyed. My other hives in an outyard a mile away survived winter and are thriving. I'm monitoring them closely.


----------



## Oldtimer

twgun1 said:


> I've recently had AFB diagnosed in a dead out single hive in my back yard.


Burn it. 

Consider that this is a second hand box that can be replaced with a brand new one for a few dollars. If you try to restore the old box, you will be painting over a layer of propolis and wax, it will only be time till the bees find their way through it.

You could possibly get away with it. But the risk is not worth the five bucks or so the used box is worth. Instead of the money and time inestment trying to save it, put that into a new box.

A question re the pig house painting, do not the pigs eventaully wear through the paint?


----------



## twgun1

No worries, It's already burnt....just a curiosity because of my background in disease of animals. (Yes, I get that bees are not a herd of cattle) but much of what we do in "herd health" is not to completely eliminate a pathogen - just not realistic- but keep pathogen load in the environment and individual below a threshold that an individual or that held can tolerate and stay healthy. Much of that concept has already been hashed out in early this thread....but the physical covering of spores never came up.


----------



## max2

Oldtimer - is the NZ government still paying beekeepers to burn hives?
I believe that this was a very successful programme and nearly got rid of AFB?


----------



## lharder

I saw my first case of AFB during an education day with the local beekeepers. Seeing it first hand was really useful. Will be keeping a sharp eye out for it.


----------



## Oldtimer

max2 said:


> Oldtimer - is the NZ government still paying beekeepers to burn hives?
> I believe that this was a very successful programme and nearly got rid of AFB?


No, there has never been a govt payout here for hives that have to be burned.

There has been the odd time down the years it looked like we were on track to almost eradicate AFB here, but now there has been a boom in beekeeping with almost 3/4 million hives in a country the size of one US state plus a lot of migration, AFB looking like it may become more problematic.


----------

