# Hands off management of nucs for back yard beek.



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

IF you are not concerned with wasting a valuable resource, bees, then swarming if fine. You loose your investment, and pollute the feral populations with bees that may not be be as adapted to life without humans. Besides that, the swarm has a chance of landing in someone's house and will have to be destroyed. 

Many years ago, people that could not control their bees from swarming where looked down upon as being less than skilled beekeepers. 

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I am a less than skilled beekeeper so if you need to look down on me, be my guest. I have local friends that are religious about not buying bees, queens or nucs of any kind so swarms are good for them, no resources lost, just moved to a new owner.

For a one or two hive apiary how often should a purchased queen be introduced so as not to continue inbreeding?


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## THALL (Apr 6, 2010)

Yes, they will swarm if you don't stay ahead of them."Bad" I would say is relative to what you want to accomplish with your nuc program. For me personaly I want to keep my nucs in their boxes, bees and brood are a valuable resource to be found in the apiary, especailly if you are raising your own queens.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Roland Wrote :

Many years ago, people that could not control their bees from swarming where looked down upon as being less than skilled beekeepers.

Acebird replied:

I am a less than skilled beekeeper so if you need to look down on me, be my guest.


I was stating a historical perspective. Where did you read that I look down on you? 

You keep your bees the way you want. I have no problems with people catching swarms. The people that drive the price of bees up because they need to replace hives that swarmed or died after installing a package have a right to do that, but should be aware that their actions effect others.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

THALL said:


> For me personaly I want to keep my nucs in their boxes, bees and brood are a valuable resource to be found in the apiary, especailly if you are raising your own queens.


I assumed a queen and enough bees will remain in the box to try and swarm again. Am I correct? If I am I have lost nothing because I am left with what I started with.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> Roland Wrote :
> 
> I was stating a historical perspective. Where did you read that I look down on you?


English is a funny language, "you" can apply to one person or the whole world.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

If your goal is to produce honey then swarming will set you back in that hives honey production. When my nuc's get full, I create an artificial swarm by doing splits. You can also keep the brood nest open in a nuc by taking a brood frame out and placing it in a weak hive to bolster it's numbers. That way your always banking a queen in case you need one anytime of the year. 

I don't know about NY but here in SF, when a hive swarms it doesn't always mean that things are going to go right and the new queen will mate and start laying right away. Sometimes intervention is required in the way of brood/egg frames or a new queen had to be introduced.


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## THALL (Apr 6, 2010)

Acebird said:


> I assumed a queen and enough bees will remain in the box to try and swarm again. Am I correct? If I am I have lost nothing because I am left with what I started with.


Sure, you are correct. But time is an important factor here. If I make up my nucs in June ( New Hampshire) and I dont stay ahead of them by either putting them in double nuc status or removing brood Im guaranteed to have bees in the trees. The same is true for nucs made up in the later half of July, except these nucs will want to swarm in August. Most of the nucs that have swarmed on me in August will winter very poorly due to a lack of bees and resources. And there is always that percentage of nucs that swarm that have queen problems due to an unsuccessful mating flight ect....or if you are really lucky they may abscond all together!

So I guess my point is: Sure you can let your nucs swarm all season long, but just be ready to be humbled when you need them the fallowing spring I feel the benefits of managing my nucs far outweigh the costs of not managing them.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I assumed a queen and enough bees will remain in the box to try and swarm again. Am I correct? If I am I have lost nothing because I am left with what I started with.


The original queen leaves with the swarm. The rest of the hive is left behind with a new queen. which I think is still virgin and not layign yet. This delay coudl be a plus or minus depending on what you are keeping the nuc for. In your case where you are trying to limit how much work the nuc requires it might very well be a plus.
how much effort went into rearing that particular queen would be one consideration in how much was lost. If you start getting into breeding queens you may not be so willing to just let your work take flight.

You also lost the ability to make another Nuc colony that could be sold etc when you let a swarm take off. again it will vary as to wether a person considers this a loss. you don't make the money but you also do not have all the extra work.


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## THALL (Apr 6, 2010)

When it comes to nucs raising their own queens I will always cull that queen, for a number of reasons. The first being that more often then not that queen is compromised from day one, due to the resources the nuc is lacking to raise a quality queen.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I assumed a queen and enough bees will remain in the box to try and swarm again. Am I correct? If I am I have lost nothing because I am left with what I started with.


Before the swarm departed, you had a queen of known quality, and a going colony. The known queen departs with the prime swarm, leaving behind a sealed queen cell. That virgin hatches, then must make her mating flight. She may or may not return from that flight. She may or may not have mated enough to make her a vibrant and vital egg laying queen. She may or may not have mated with drones carrying the desired genetic traits. In the meanwhile the nucleus colony is dwindling, because no eggs have been laid for a while. Depending upon the time of the swarm, the nuc may or may not build up in time for your purposes before winter. So no, when the swarm departs, you are not left with what you started before the swarm.

An earlier comment made about swarms being good for your neighbors because they are simply changing owners...not necessarily the case. There is no way of guaranteeing or knowing how many swarms are actually caught, of those that departed. If a beekeeper wants to make increase, make increase by division, not by swarming. It is a more sure and profitable process for both the old owner, the new owner, and the bees. By the bees I mean that not all swarms survive their first winter. If you divide the colony and provide the division to a new owner, at least that artificial swarm has a better chance of survival than a natural swarm, especially late in the season.
Regards,
Steven


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## jadell (Jun 19, 2011)

I think it's only bad depending on your goals. If you want to do as the OP stated and start a queen rearing/nuc business, then swarming would be bad. I'm not sure I understand what you're wanting to know. I don't want a bee business yet, so I let them do what they want. So do several other bee keepers around me. They already have the number of hives they want. Now a few friends of mine have mentioned something about getting into bees. I'll prob do some splits to keep them from swarming and help my friends out next year.

THALL-I like open-mated queens. I never cull a queen. I feel like it keeps the diversity going.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

So I take it splitting a nuc is a lazy way of managing it?


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## jadell (Jun 19, 2011)

Haha, I don't think so. I just take a more hands off approach. Next year will be my first attempts at splitting so my friends can get some bees cheaper than from someone else. Sooo, I'm going to be a little more hands on.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Just letting nucs overcrowd and swarm is just not managing them at all, really. 

The central challenge to keeping bees is all about balancing colony strength, health and growth against winter and the swarming urge. Another thing to consider is where the nucs are. If you're keeping bees in an urban setting, it becomes even more important to control swarming. One swarm on the wrong neighbor's car, and the next thing you know, there's new a new bylaw or two in place, and you can't keep bees anymore.


Adam


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> So I take it splitting a nuc is a lazy way of managing it?


Splitting a strong nuc and making another isn't lazy. Allowing them to swarm to control the population is.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

If my neighbor managed Italian hives this way I wouldnt mind.
Managing Russian/hot hives this way would have me buying wasp spray by the case!!!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

StevenG - well composed reply, I concur.

Acebird brought up English, If we look at the work Beekeeper, it appears to be a person that KEEPS bees. Letting them swarm is not beeKEEPing.

Crazy Roland


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## jadell (Jun 19, 2011)

I'm amazed at how a few of you are villifying swarming...I suppose you have never had a swarm from one of your hives? Every beek I know has had at least one, depending on how long they've been in it. 

Ace- I think it's an interesting take on things. I've often thought about experimenting with one of my hives with this same idea, aside from keeping an eye on pests. It also makes me smile how you seem to get everyone fired up. I'm glad there are people like you around to keep everyone on their toes! Keep asking questions!


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Ace, if I'm reading your posts correctly are you assuming that this queen rearing and nuc production operation will solely be run in nuc boxes??? If so I can see why your asking about the management of nucs for swarming....but I am pretty sure MP is not advocating running the entire operation in 5 frame nuc boxes....that would be a nightmare to manage for swarming and many other reasons. I think his message was several beekeepers getting together, sharing resources and expenses, and eventually some profit selling nucs and queens. The core of the operation would still be full sized healthy colonies in full sized equipment from which you would split your nucs and borrow resources to make your queens.


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## jadell (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanks for that Peace, I didn't read it that way. Makes a lot more sense.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

THALL said:


> When it comes to nucs raising their own queens I will always cull that queen, for a number of reasons. The first being that more often then not that queen is compromised from day one, due to the resources the nuc is lacking to raise a quality queen.


Then you probably didn't make it up correctly to begin w/. A frame of eggs, a frame of capped brood and pollen, a frame of honey and two empty frames (foundation or comb) and plenty of bees covering the brood. This should produce a fine queen.

Time of year may be important too. Dandelion season in the North or when a strong nectar flow is on.

I also wouldn't start making up this type of nuc until drones are being produced by your hives.

Hands off management? I don't know. Seems like one will have to put some work into gaining one's goal. You get out of it what you put into it. So, if hands off is your management style, don't be too disappointed in the poor results. You only have yourself to blame.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

peacekeeperapiaries said:


> Ace, if I'm reading your posts correctly are you assuming that this queen rearing and nuc production operation will solely be run in nuc boxes???


Well if it isn't then it is not a nuc anymore, I think. I am having a hard time differentiating what the difference between a nuc and a hive is seeing as how a nuc can be larger than a feral hive. I think from this thread I have a better idea what direction I need to go in next spring if both hives make it. Splitting one of the hives and moving one of the splits to another yard is the answer for me. I am somewhat surprised at the reactions on this forum. I though increasing feral numbers would be a good thing. The majority of you feel the opposite.

Go figure.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If that's what you are keeping bees for, populating your neighborhood w/ unmanaged colonies of bees, go for it. Don't even bother to do anything at all w/ the colony that survives the winter and it will cast off a swarm or swarms.

I have never heard that a nuc, which to me is usually made up of 5 frames of brood and bees or smaller, was as big as or larger than a feral hive. 

Seems to me Tom Seeley's book indicated that the prefered size of cavity which swarming bees prefer is about the size of a deep super. Which is twice the size of a nuc box.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> The average nest cavity was only about 20 centimeters (8 inches) in diameter and 150 centimeters (60 inches) tall; hence, it had a volume of only about 45 liters (41 quarts) (fig. 3.4). A tree cavity of this size provides only one-quarter to one-half of the living space provided by a beekeeper’s hive.
> 
> Seeley, Thomas D. (2010-09-07). Honeybee Democracy (Kindle Locations 660-662). Princeton University Press. Kindle Edition.


Chapter three.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Okay, guess I was mistaken. One quarter to one half of the living space provided by a beekeeper's hive would be smaller than a standard 5 frame nuc, assuming a two deep super hive as "a beekeeper's hive" living space.

My memory was, at the lecture he gave in Canandaigua, that Seeley said about the same volume as a medium depth super.


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## THALL (Apr 6, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Then you probably didn't make it up correctly to begin w/. A frame of eggs, a frame of capped brood and pollen, a frame of honey and two empty frames (foundation or comb) and plenty of bees covering the brood. This should produce a fine queen.
> 
> Time of year may be important too. Dandelion season in the North or when a strong nectar flow is on.
> 
> ...


Sqkcrk: My bad, I should have expounded upon why I dont let my nucs raise their own queens. Most of my nucs are being made up from my unproductive production colonies. Given that, I dont want to have them raise a queen from an unproductive queen.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Makes sense. Since I make up the majority of my nucs in the Spring in SC I don't take into consideration that others do it later under different conditions. I should have asked for more details.

I should give your method a try. Mike Palmer's method, I believe. Not that others don't do it too. I know someone who is taking hundreds to SC.


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Seems to me Tom Seeley's book indicated that the prefered size of cavity which swarming bees prefer is about the size of a deep super. Which is twice the size of a nuc box.


Mark is correct. When Dr. Seeley says that a bee tree provides one-quarter to one-half of the living space provided by a beekeeper's hive he is assuming that a beekeeper's hive consists of more than one box.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So, what is he refering too? Someone who runs 4 deeps? Cause one-quarter to one-half of what I normally provide for living space would be one-quarter of one-half of two deep supers, or one-quarter of one deep. In otherwords, 2.5 frames worth of space. That can't be correct. He must be refering to 4 deeps.

That would be 5 frames. Which jives w/ memory and experience.

I misunderstood the "one-quarter to one-half" part of Seeley's quote. One-quarter of two deeps would be 5 frames. The same as a 5 frame nuc. One-half of one deep would be the same.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...I believe a single 10 frame deep hive body is about 42L in volume...about twice that of a 5 frame nuc, and just about the volume that seeley cites in the quote provided.

deknow


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I think from this thread I have a better idea what direction I need to go in next spring if both hives make it. Splitting one of the hives and moving one of the splits to another yard is the answer for me. I am somewhat surprised at the reactions on this forum. I though increasing feral numbers would be a good thing. The majority of you feel the opposite.
> Go figure.


I've met several beekeepers who feel that increasing feral populations by allowing some swarming is a good thing- in fact, it may be one of their goals in having bees. Sam Comfort is one, and he never seems to have a problem increasing his number of hives despite allowing swarms. Obviously it might not be a goal of choice for commercial BKers depending on heavy honey production or pollination. But it's a valid concept and goal for some people.

Acebird, rather than your plan of splitting and moving a split to another yard next year, have you considered making a nuc/split and keeping it for the summer only? you can keep that older queen in a nuc you make up in early June (thus creating an artificial swarm in the main hive, which may avoid you losing bees to a natural swarm)- keep her in a 5frame nuc and periodically when they get crowded you remove a frame of brood (without the queen of course) and use it to boost other hives. Every time you remove a frame of brood from the nuc during the Spring and summer, it will eagerly build you another frame of nice new comb...a veritable comb factory. Additionally, if you have a queen fail somewhere, you've got that spare queen on the sidelines waiting. 

In the Fall you can inspect your main hives and see who needs more honey, more brood, etc....pinch the queen if she's not needed elsewhere, and break down that nuc and use it for resources. Or you can insulate the nuc in various ways, sit back and see if it survives the winter as is. I kept my 2 nucs and have bundled them both into a 10 frame deep for the winter, with a divider and two entrances. I'm not counting on them surviving, but will be ahead of the game if either of them does survive the winter.

I've come to view nucs as temporary seasonal 'tools' that can be used for all sorts of things- I no longer regard them as a 'baby hive' that is necessarily going to become a full sized hive.
The nice thing is that 5 frame wooden nucs take up VERY little space and are cheap enough to buy 1 or 2. I had three nucs stacked right on top of each other this summer, like a pyramid. They were easy to unstack when I went into them, so lightweight. So the 3 nucs pretty much only took up the footprint/space of one normal hive. Try one or two nucs next Spring when you make your splits!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deknow said:


> ...I believe a single 10 frame deep hive body is about 42L in volume...about twice that of a 5 frame nuc, and just about the volume that seeley cites in the quote provided.
> 
> deknow


I agree.

I said:



> I am having a hard time differentiating what the difference between a nuc and a hive is seeing as how a nuc can be larger than a feral hive.


Mark said:



> I have never heard that a nuc, which to me is usually made up of 5 frames of brood and bees or smaller, was as big as or larger than a feral hive.


I dissagreed.


> Seems to me Tom Seeley's book indicated that the preferred size of cavity which swarming bees prefer is about the size of a deep super. Which is twice the size of a nuc box.


I agree
Quote from Seeley’s book;
The *average* nest cavity was only about 20 centimeters (8 inches) in diameter and 150 centimeters (60 inches) tall; hence, it had a volume of only about 45 liters (41 quarts) (fig. 3.4). A tree cavity of this size provides only one-quarter to one-half of the living space provided by a beekeeper’s hive.

If the average is the size of a deep that means that there are hives smaller and larger then the average. I think he reiterates that somewhere else in the book. I am not going to look for it. I also remember reading posts that people have caught swarms that were no more than a handful of bees. That is way smaller than a 5 frame nuc.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Omie said:


> Acebird, rather than your plan of splitting and moving a split to another yard next year, have you considered making a nuc/split and keeping it for the summer only?


Thanks Omie for the information but the bottom line is this is a commercial business with over 500 customers going in and out and probably 495 of them are deathly afraid of "bees". We have to bombard everything that has wings in order to satisfy customers. One hive is acceptable. Two hives is pushing it because I did not expect them to take off like they did. Maybe it was just a great year for the honeybee in our area but over 100,000 bees coming and going is hard to camouflage. One or two hives is better than none so splitting a hive and moving it might still give me the resource without the exposure. Unless we start making 10-20 gallons of mead a year I don't need all the honey.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Acebird,
Oh, well ok. Sorry, I misunderstood the purpose of this thread then- from your title and first post I thought you were trying to manage nucs in your back yard.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

As always Omie, I am looking for answers and input. It makes it easier to make decisions. What I do today may not be what I do tomorrow. Knowledge is easy to give so don't stop now.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Acebird said:


> As always Omie, I am looking for answers and input. It makes it easier to make decisions. What I do today may not be what I do tomorrow. Knowledge is easy to give so don't stop now.


I understand and appreciate that you are seeking knowledge. Always a good thing.
I like to help folks whenever I can. Knowledge may be 'easy to give' as you say, but if I'm going to wear out my typing fingers and dedicate part of my workday to trying to answer a forum question, I might choose to help with an immediate problem rather than a hypothetical or conceptual one. In that respect, it would be helpful to know whether you are needing solutions for an actual issue you are currently experiencing, or are simply looking to expand your bee knowledge in general. Making that a little clearer when you ask a question would be helpful, at least to me.  Thanks!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I am having a hard time differentiating what the difference between a nuc and a hive is seeing as how a nuc can be larger than a feral hive.


Perhaps some of my confusion stemming from some of your comments is caused by terminology.

When writing about a "nuc", some people are refering to the box and it's size, other times one may be refering to the colony occupying the nuc box.

A nucleus colony occupies a nuc box. A nucleus colony is called that because it, in some ways, it is similar to the nucleus of a living cell.

A nuc, or nuc box, is a hive. A nucleus colony is housed in its' hive, or nuc box.

So, when you write "seeing as how a nuc can be larger than a feral hive", are you refering to the "nuc" as in the cavity or are you refering to the colony? Or are you saying that the bees in a nuc can be larger than those in a feral hive?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I am having a hard time differentiating what the difference between a nuc and a hive is seeing as how a nuc can be larger than a feral hive.


It depends on what you want. As Mark says, a 5 frame nuc, if stocked correctly, can produce a queen. If you want to produce a cell ba frame of cells you need more nurse bees. Only a full sized colony and more can do the job to the fullest possible measure.

To raise a cell bar frame of 45-51 cells, and have them well drawn and still full of jelley when they are given to the nucs, I start with a strong colony and add a box of brood on top over an excluder.










And then shake most of the bees into that box and a medium from the queen right section.










Creating a cell builder that can do the job properly.










So you see it's a matter of degree. If you were to try raising a quantity of cells, which setup do you think would consistantly make the nicest cells.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not the "hands off managed" one.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Maybe we need to clarify another term, "back yard beek". I assume that means a guy like myself with one or two hives, maybe three that has no interest in selling anything. So there is no need for raising a quantity of cells.

I think some beekeeper coined the phrase nucleus hive because I don't see any correlation between a single celled organism and a small bee hive. A single celled organism is controlled by the DNA within it's nucleus. A bee hive starts out a swarm and as Dr. Seeley pointed out it is not controlled by a central figure.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I think some beekeeper coined the phrase nucleus hive because I don't see any correlation between a single celled organism and a small bee hive. A single celled organism is controlled by the DNA within it's nucleus.


I think NUC goes beyond the cell.... and just means the center of things... you know... when you build the hive, you take the frames from the nuc and put them in the center of the hive....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_nucleus



> In cell biology, the nucleus (pl. nuclei; from Latin nucleus or nuculeus, meaning kernel)


Not center, kernel.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

unless one is trying to simply argue, I don't understand restricting the use of the term "nucleus" to cell biology:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nucleus (go to the link...there are even more definitions listed).

...but for those of us that speak conversational english, we know that nucleus can refer to the center, or essential part of anything...

deknow

nu·cle·us (nkl-s, ny-)
n. pl. nu·cle·i (-kl-) or nu·cle·us·es
1. A central or essential part around which other parts are gathered or grouped; a core: the nucleus of a city.
2. Something regarded as a basis for future development and growth; a kernel: a few paintings that formed the nucleus of a great art collection.
3. Biology A large, membrane-bound, usually spherical protoplasmic structure within a living cell, containing the cell's hereditary material and controlling its metabolism, growth, and reproduction.
4. Botany
a. The central kernel of a nut or seed.
b. The center of a starch granule.
5. Anatomy A group of specialized nerve cells or a localized mass of gray matter in the brain or spinal cord.
6. Physics The positively charged central region of an atom, composed of protons and neutrons and containing almost all of the mass of the atom.
7. Chemistry A group of atoms bound in a structure, such as a benzene ring, that is resistant to alteration in chemical reactions.
8. Astronomy
a. The central portion of the head of a comet.
b. The central or brightest part of a nebula or galaxy.
9. Meteorology A particle on which water vapor molecules accumulate in free air to form a droplet or ice crystal.
10. Linguistics The part of a syllable having the greatest sonority. In the word middlemost (mdl-mst) the nuclei of the three syllables are (), (l), and (); in the Czech word krk ("neck"), the nucleus is (r).


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_nucleus
> 
> In cell biology, the nucleus (pl. nuclei; from Latin nucleus or nuculeus, meaning kernel)
> 
> Not center, kernel.


No, bird, I don't think the term "back yard beek" needs clarifying. I think most folks can pretty well figure that out for themselves. Sure, a person could have 5, 50, 500, or 5000 hives in their back yard but common sense would most likely then be applied to determine what class of beek owns them. Classification, from what I've found, is mostly "hobby", "sideliner", or "commercial". There are several places on the internet that you can find definitions for these levels of apiarists.

Since you like to reference wikipedia here's a link to figuring out what type of bee keeper someone is... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beekeeper

...and as for your definition of nuculeus...were talking about "nucs"...right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuc...

"Nucs, or Nucleus Colonies, are small honey bee colonies created from larger colonies. The term refers both to the smaller size box and the colony of honeybees within it."

Splitting hairs over insignificant terminology is really a waste of time so I won't be responding to your reply to this. Feel free to type away, though, my eyebrow muscles need the exercise. 

Best wishes,
Ed


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## Duboisi (Oct 7, 2009)

I think that you can have it both ways if you make a two story nuc with the original broodnest on top. The space will be small enough for the colony to handle, while they can expand downwards if needed.

I think you would be better of to avoid swarming, and rather give away bees if they become to many. Then you have another level of control, instead of a big risk that they throw swarm after swarm, and then die. A little check about every two-three weeks should increase your chances quite a bit, and still be very litle work.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_nucleus
> 
> 
> 
> Not center, kernel.


One more thing...the kernal's not involved in this conversation...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Maybe we need to clarify another term, "back yard beek".
> 
> A single celled organism is controlled by the DNA within it's nucleus.
> 
> A bee hive starts out a swarm


Okay, I didn't know there was any confusion about the back yard beekeeper term.

Doesn't the nucleus of a cell contain that which is necassary to reproduce that cell? I was thinking that that is the source of the term.

There, that's the problem as I see it. A "beehive" doesn't start out as a swarm. You can have a beehive w/out bees in it. The COLONY starts out as a swarm.


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

Acebird said:


> I think some beekeeper coined the phrase nucleus hive


That seems like a reasonable assumption. Langstroth spoke of nucleus colonies many years ago when he said "... such a colony-- which I shall call a _nucleus_--".


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Still, when is a nuc a nuc and when is a nuc not a nuc? Say that three times fast.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A nuc is always a nuc and a hive is always a hive. Neither of them are the bees w/in. The bees w/in a nuc box are a nucleus colony. The bees w/in a hive are a colony. One can refer to a hive of bees, but in your post which caused me some confusion you seemed to refer to the nuc and the hive as though you were refering to the bees w/in and their size or the size of the cavity, I'm not sure which. Thus the confusion.

When what someone write is only clear to the person writing something, that is where communication breaks down and confusion starts.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> When what someone write is only clear to the person writing something, that is where communication breaks down and confusion starts.


Ok I am guilty ...

I have heard the expression "buy a nuc". That is what I thought we have always done. The equipment is a full size box that the supplier puts in bees, brood, and honey. He takes 5 empty frames to make up for the frame he is supplying. I always thought a nuc referred to the colony. Any box made of anything will do if it has the frame of bee, brood, and honey (I am assuming it also has a queen).


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Ok I am guilty ...
> 
> That is what I thought we have always done. The equipment is a full size box that the supplier puts in bees, brood, and honey.


Sounds like you are buying 5 frames and a queen.... not a nuc.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

hpm08161947 said:


> Sounds like you are buying 5 frames and a queen.... not a nuc.


OK now ya got me confused.So what you are saying is when ya buy a nuke you are buying 5 frames of bees, a queen IN a 5 frame nuke box. If you buy a nuke and the place of purchase takes a 5 frame nuke box, takes those 5 frames and a queen OUT of that 5 frame nuke box and puts them in a 10 frame box you supply ya didn’t buy a nuke??? Spent a day helping a commercial guy do just that this spring and I don’t think I’ll tell him he didn’t sell those folks a nuke.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Isn't the difference is that a nuc is a laying queen with some frames of brood?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

mac said:


> OK now ya got me confused.So what you are saying is when ya buy a nuke you are buying 5 frames of bees, a queen IN a 5 frame nuke box.


I may be confused here too. It sounded to me like the vendor took 5 frames from a hive and added a queen. Maybe one can call this a nuc... since it would serve as the nucleus of the hive.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

He takes 5 empty frames and put in frames of bees, brood, and honey and a queen.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> He takes 5 empty frames and put in frames of bees, brood, and honey and a queen.


What did his frames of bees, brood, and honey come out of? Was it the same queen that raised the brood?


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

RiodeLobo said:


> Isn't the difference is that a nuc is a laying queen with some frames of brood?


So a nuke is a queen and BROOD and Not a nuke is 5 frames of BEES with NO brood and a queen OK


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

hpm08161947 said:


> Was it the same queen that raised the brood?


I am not sure. I know he buys queens and makes nucs. I am sure he splits hives and makes nucs also. Did I get the one with the old queen, new queen or made queen, I don't know. Does it really matter to me, no. My hives are unbelievably gentle and they produced more honey than I need. So far to date I have only got one mini sting on the pinkie finger when I had the robbing problem on left out frames.

Not a nuc could be a package just bees and a queen no equipment.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Did I get the one with the old queen, new queen or made queen, I don't know. Does it really matter to me, no.


It is good that you are happy with what you have. But on a more general basis, it would be nice if more people were familiar with what the differences are between a package and a Nuc. It makes a difference to us because we sell nucs and often run into this confusion. Nucs are usually a bit more expensive than packages and there is a reason for this. Success rate for a newbee is almost always higher for nucs than packages... at least IMHO.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Okay, now you all are getting funny. I don't go with any of your ideas about what a nuc is except.. a queen with bees and 5 frames at least 2 of them brood. Now that is just what I would accept as a nuc cause you can get a nuc as little as 2 frames. N ow weather a supplier builds a box, makes one out of cardboard or adds those frames to a box you supplied is not an issue at all.
What I see as the final issue is that you have a fully functioning mini hive of bees. laying queen, nurser bees, brood already developing etc. This hive will just go in your yard and start doing it's thing. where a packages has to spend a few weeks getting going.

getting 5 frames added to a 10 frame box may seem like the same thing but is not when it comes to some of the management tricks I have read. I would not necessarily be a big deal. For me a nuc is a nuc because it includes a queen bees and brood. according to techniques I have sen that are claimed to be what works. there needs to be at least 5 frames in a nuc. 2 brood, one pollen and one nectar i think that is about right but cannot recall what the 5th needs to be.
Anyway teh point is a nuc has to be made up correctly for it to be successful and healthy. These issues are far more important to me than what they are packaged in.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> getting 5 frames added to a 10 frame box may seem like the same thing but is not when it comes to some of the management tricks I have read.


Did anybody suggest that putting 5 frames into a 10 frame box is a nuc?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

hpm08161947 said:


> Success rate for a newbee is almost always higher for nucs than packages... at least IMHO.


I agree. And as a newbie I suggest it should be the first choice for any newbie, cost wise and success wise. Even after two years of meddling with bees I feel a nuc is a better investment than a package of bees.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Did anybody suggest that putting 5 frames into a 10 frame box is a nuc?


I will. Have transferred thousands of four combers into 10 frame boxes with excellent success. If you are a gardener think of it as re-potting.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The way it is stated it sounds to me like they were just frames and no queen.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Did anybody suggest that putting 5 frames into a 10 frame box is a nuc?


Yes I did. Worked with a commercial guy this spring. People came to pick up their nukes. Took the 5 frames of bees brood eggs larva honey pollen and queen out of a 5 frame box and put them in the customers 10 frame box. So ya’ll are saying once it’s in a 10 frame box it’s not a nuke anymore. So if the customer changes his mind and doesn’t want them after all and ya put them back in a 5 frame box it’s a nuke again? Seems like it IS the size box it’s in determines if it’s a nuke or not. A nuke in a 5 frame box is a nuke. Those same 5 frames put in a 10 frame box is just a week hive? Ah beekeepers. 1 question 11 answers. ☺


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## Duboisi (Oct 7, 2009)

So many nits to pick, yet nobody have mentioned a mating nuc.

My simple definition of a NUC is any small colony placed in a box that is smaller than your standard boxes. Normally half a standard box or less.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Good definition. That's settled than.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

How many beekeepers does it take to define.......


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

...one to hold the ladder and one to.....


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

keeper or haver. Another thread about what the definition of words are.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

In reading the original post/question 2 things come to mind:

1. MP's statement was in regards to several people sharing resources to create a thriving "BUSINESS", nothing in his statement suggested it would be hands off...on the contrary it would be a lot of work (hands on), but success could be enjoyed by those who contributed sweat, tears, bees, and equipment. If a backyard beekeeper want to create a few "hands off" nucs from a few hives...just do it, it wont require any management at all....take 3 frames of bees and brood (w/eggs), put them in a nuc box, walk away.... but that not going to create a BUSINESS which is what MP was driving at. There is plenty of info here and elsewhere on how to make splits/nucs...its pretty darn easy.

2. Why so much interest lately in "easy", "hands off", "no handling", etc...what kind of hobby or interest is that???? Sounds boring!!! If your keeping a few hives for a hobby then its pretty hands off and easy IMO....follow the advice of others here and pretty much your on cruise control...but...if you want to make money at it get ready to work your butt off, there is no hands off beekeeping that makes money...period. It seems some want to try to compare and equalize the two (hobby vs comm). Mike Bush might have created some methods to make things easier, "lazy beekeeping" I think I have seen it called...but with the number of colonies he is running... I guarantee he is not sitting on the couch drinking a beer rolling in cash all day....he still works hard.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Maybe I shouldn't have included the reference to the other post ...

It was that post that got me thinking and I did not want to steer it off track. I think what is confusing though is not having an authoritative dictionary on what beekeeper terms are when it come to "nuc", and "bee haver" for example.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Maybe I shouldn't have included the reference to the other post ...
> 
> It was that post that got me thinking and I did not want to steer it off track. I think what is confusing though is not having an authoritative dictionary on what beekeeper terms are when it come to "nuc", and "bee haver" for example.


George Imiries coined the phrase bee haver. If ya want to know what it is google him. I think brother Adam coined the phrase nucleus colony ie nuc. The hive and the honey bee could be the dictionary you are looking for. Or The ABC’s of beekeeping or………….


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Great, neither one of those are speaking here so the communication here is not the same as what George and Brother Adam used. I am more than happy to use their definitions if it can be agreed upon here.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

<sigh>


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

mac said:


> I think brother Adam coined the phrase nucleus colony ie nuc.


It was Langstroth that used the term nucleus colony.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I love beekeeping ...


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> It was Langstroth that used the term nucleus colony.


 Thanks for the correction ☺


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Intheswamp said:


> <sigh>


Why do I feed them???? They look hungry.


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