# Beekeeping with foundationless frames



## Beeginning16

Hello everyone,

My name is Seth,

I am a complete newbie when it comes to bees, but i have been doing some research lately. I was wondering if it is better to get the NUCS or package because i have heard the Nucs are better and easier, but i have also heard it is cool to start from the beginning and see it all from the start with the package bees? Whats your opinion? 

I was also thinking about going with foundationless frames. 
How would I extract the honey from the wax? Would I have to buy a extractor that would kind of heat the honey and wax to make it thinner or how would I do it? How long would it take for me to get honey? I am located in the suburban area (Slidell) of New Orleans, Louisiana. The Hive is actually going to be in Pearl River, Louisiana which is in the rural area of Slidell, Louisiana. I have no bees or equipment at the moment.


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## Aroc

Get two colonies. It's easier with two. I wish I had done that. Assuming you get two, buy a package and buy a nuc.

Can't help much with the honey question. In your are you might get to harvest your first year. Extracting with foundationless can be done by sacrificing the comb and pressing the honey out.

Above all don't listen to anyone who tells you not to worry about varroa mites your first year. That above all is most important. Decide on what a plan of attack is and stick to it.


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## enjambres

It's easier to get nice, straight, even, foundationless combs if you are slotting them in between previously-drawn out frames with foundation. In other words, it's easier to do this in your second season, than your first.

That's not say you can't go with foundationless combs in your first year, but as a new beekeeper you are adding to your early work-load when you are just getting used to handling bees. Foundationless is higher-maintenance during the early stages and early on must be handled very carefully.

However, foundationless can be harvested simply by crushing the comb and squeezing out the honey. But this trashes your bees' considerable effort in making the honyecombs each year. (The brood combs aren't crushed every year, of course.)

The nuc vs package choice is endlessly debated.

A package is cheaper, but usually consists of bees that are completely unrelated to each other, with a queen they have never "met" before. Being highly socially organized creatures, the bees will adapt to this, but you've added an extra factor in their establishment period.

A nuc is a small colony with an accepted and laying queen when you buy it, so you are getting bees that are already functioning as a unit. They are usually more expensive. The problem is that they are a bit more likely to be swarmy in your first season (sometimes within days of installation). If a colony swarms, most of them will leave the hive - along with your original queen. Recognizing and dealing with a swarm in your first month is not usually within your earliest skill set when you're just starting out. 

There are two types of nucs: spring nucs which were made up a few weeks to a month before sale using bees on combs from multiple hives and an added queen who begins to lay. And overwintered nucs which were made up the previous year and are a small but completely related "family" of bees with a queen that was born the year before and has been with her bees through the whole winter. Of the two nucs, the overwintered ones are the most expensive.

In Slidell, overwintered nucs may not make much of a difference since your winters are short and your springs early. I am in northern NY, and choosing an overwintered nuc helps get your hive up and running earlier in our very short season. A strong overwintered nuc has to be managed intensively to keep it from swarming. 

And over-ambitious as it sounds, two colonies are better than one in your first year. Bees have a surprising amount of variation in their developmental paths and with only one colony to observe you may miss signs of trouble. Two colonies gives you more information, and also the bee-resources to fix certain kinds of problems that may crop up.

Hope you get as big a kick out of your bees as I do!

Enjambres


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## Michael Bush

It's just not as simple as nucs vs packages. Not all nucs are equal. Not all packages are equal. Some of the things to consider are what size frames do you want? What size cells do you want? Are the nucs local? Are they overwintered locally or made up this spring? Sometimes you settle for what you can get that is as close as you can to what you want.


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## Rader Sidetrack

>> How would I extract the honey from the wax? 

Aside from using an extractor and crush-n-strain, there is a third option - don't remove the wax at all! 










Shown are sections of 'comb honey' cut and ready to package. More in this thread from which that photo was linked:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?306776-Comb-Containers


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## tech.35058

Greetings Seth, welcome to Beesource.
I dunno if you saw this thead
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?331524-Keeping-Packages-alive
but there is _lots_ of info I wish I had had before I started in there.
While I personally got "burned" pre-purchasing nucs, That would be part of my "start-up" suggestion, plus possibly purchasing a nuc from craigslist, when they become available locally.
The nucs would give you the opportunity to interleave some foundationless frames to help get straight comb, & could be made to work regardless of mixing frame sizes, although it would be extra work.
Personally, I keep bees in 8 frame mediums, but since the nucs I could find were all deeps, I have some of that equipment, but don't really use it.
The flow hive is still pretty controversial. If you move forward with that, I would like to see it, as I occasionally visit family in NOLA.
Good Luck ! ... CE


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## Beeginning16

I would have to pre purchase my nucs before the spring if I am correct, won't I? What equipment would I need? 
Here is the website that I found a place in louisiana to pre purchase nuc bees: http://www.mvabeepunchers.com/nucs.html


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## Keyser4

Hi Everyone, I am a first year beekeeper. I couldn't afford to purchase everything so I built my own hive boxes and supers, and my own frames. I only could afford one NUC but had wanted two as it is suggested so you can compare the two hives. Well I live in the Tundra actually Sault Ste Marie MI /in Gods Country as the trolls under the bridge say. That bridge is another story. Well I got the NUC in mid May and they were doing great, but towards July were bearding up on the front of hive on what we say is hot days (mid 70's-80's). Well being first year beek I didn't know any better and August 5th my birthday they swarmed. I pulled in my drive and saw a mass hanging from one of my young apple trees in my orchard. It was about 3 feet long and 1.5 feet wide. I wasn't prepared so I quickly built a new hive body and went and swept/brushed them into it and they kept going back to the tree. Finally it got two heavy so I set it on the back of my pick-up truck and ran and got a cardboard box and brushed most of the remaining bees into it and kept dumping them in the new hive box. Soon bees were flying everywhere so I put and inner cover on the new box and let them calm down. About dusk I went and checked and all of the swarm were in the new hive so I threw a telescoping cover on drove up to my hive stand and set it next to the original hive (NUC). So I ended up with two hives. I inspected the original hive a day or two later and noticed that the swarm must have took almost all the honey when they swarmed. Well fast forward I have been working crazy hours since labor day weekend 12 hour days 7 days a week for about 3-4 weeks at a time with a few day breaks. First week of October I had a day off and was able to take 3.5 gallons of honey off between the two hives. The swarm hive actually produced more honey than the original one. I had run out of foundation on supers and actually checker boarded wax foundation and empty frames and they drew out the most beautiful comb on all those frames. I was able to spin the no foundation filled out frames in a hand extractor starting very slow then speeding up as they were emptying. Anyways I have been feeding syrup water since our first frost.


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## tech.35058

Beeginning16 said:


> I would have to pre purchase my nucs before the spring if I am correct, won't I? What equipment would I need?
> Here is the website that I found a place in louisiana to pre purchase nuc bees: http://www.mvabeepunchers.com/nucs.html


All of these questions depend on your definition of how you want to keep bees, & how you want to get bees.

The LOUISIANA BEEKEEPERS ASSOCIATION will be having meetings Dec 2 & 3

http://www.labeekeepers.org/

I highly recommend attending these type meetings, at least at first.
Their website also has a list of local beekeeping clubs .... find one near you, and wangle a visit to some one whom is keeping bees on a day when they are working their hives. ( I recommend this even more highly!)
For beekeeper, this is an educational event, for the bee supply houses, this is a sales event.
Most offer free shipping for orders delivered to the event/show/convention, as well as bring stock to sell from their booths.

There may be closer, more ( convenient time) resources available to you in South Mississippi.
Do a web search.

Do you "have to" pre-order?
Most package resellers require pre order & some deposit or complete prepayment.
They buy the packages, Then immediately transfer them to the purchaser for asap instalation into the hives. No shelf life to speak of.
Some bee keepers produce nucs, & try to line up sales in advance.
If you pre buy, they promise to provide you a nuc at the appropriate time.
They are farmers, on some sort of scale, some times things dont work out & they have trouble keeping their promises, or some times it is wonderful, and there are no issues. 
But either way, if you pre-buy, you are locked in to that supplier.
Other beekeepers do not pre sell, but offer splits( nucs) for sale when the hives tend to swarm in the spring. Find them on craigslist.
All of this assumes you are keeping bees in a Langstroth hive.
Some people use top bar hives, and others use other types including warre (sp?), and there are others.
Do you plan to buy every thing, or build your own?
Visit a bee yard, go to the conventions, count your money & your time, decide which way you want to go.
Good Luck ... CE


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## Riverderwent

Sound advice from Tech.


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## Beeginning16

I found someone that I think is a not necessarily closer than Streaveport but we know people to visit whIle on the trip and that is in West Monroe, Louisiana. The guy I found charges $350 for the complete hives with bees.
I am still deciding weather or not to go with the Flow Super or Flow Classic complete set up yet or not 

If I did go with the Flow classic, can I still get Nucs or would I need to get packages? If this guy sellsaid me 2 brood boxes, does that mean 2 colonies or just 1? It would be the complete set up, but it comes with 2 brood boxes


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## AmericasBeekeeper

Welcome Seth!


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## enjambres

If you are buying bees "with two brood boxes" that is just one colony (one queen) with two boxes that have brood in them. And you are paying money for the frames and woodenware which may not work in a Flow Hive of any sort.

It's worth while asking for a bit of history about the hive you might be purchasing - where it's been and what it has been treated with (or not) in the past year or so. It's not at all a rude question - it will give you important information when considering the purchase. And experienced beekeepers certainly wouldn't be shy asking about that.

Starting out I think you would be better served to have simple, ordinary bee equipment rather than a FH.

Flow hives weren't on the market when I started, but the single best piece of advice I got in my first year was to buy what was the commonest type of equipment in my area and learn on that. 

I think the worst possible combination for a new beekeeper is both a FH and regular equipment since it limits the opportunity for moving stuff from one hive to another. 

Have you read the lengthy thread about FH here on BeeSource?

Enj.


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## sakhoney

beeginning 16 see this post
Steve


http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ses-nucs/page2&highlight=packages+verses+nucs


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## sakhoney

double post - dad burn computer


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