# Beginner-What if I just let them swarm?



## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

YOU may not be worried where they go but your neighbors within 5 miles might. I am starting out in the same boat as you but I built 2 long langs. I am hoping to avoid swarming as best I can by harvesting wax and giving them back the empty frames to rebuild. I cannot meet our state regs for selling honey but the sale of candles is not as restrictive. Half of my neighbors is one property of 50,000 acres of watershed sadly the other half is a village and adjoining developments.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Feral hives can become a source for mites, disease, and considerable expence when they move into the wrong places. You will also suffer some attrition with your parent hives because they fail to re-queen themselves.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

hulstbee said:


> Once I have the 4 hives filled, what if I just let them naturally swarm each year? I don't want more than the 4 hives, got enough to do. I live in the country(mixed cropland and hardwood forest) so I'm not worried about where they go. Be great to have some more honey bees around, haven't seen one near my place in years, and I'm always looking. Will my hives survive and continue on if I just let them do what they want as far as swarming goes? It's what they do, right?


Welcome! Even though you live in the country, you should be worried about where they go, especially if they choose a cavity in your house/closes neighbors, garage, barn, or out houses. If you don't plan on managing them :scratch:, perhaps you should think twice about keeping them. They may or may not survive if you just let them swarm. They just may swarm themselves out


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If there are no feral bees around that may be an indicator that bees may not do well there when left to their own resources. Bees that swarm may create two hives (or more) neither of which survive the winters there and likely no net honey yield. What are your plans for a mite management system!


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

hulstbee said:


> 2. Treatment free.
> 
> ...
> 
> so I'm not worried about where they go.


Glad you aren't my neighbor. Over the last few years we have put considerable time and expense into expanding our apiary to become a significant source of revenue. One of my most catastrophic risk factors when we did our risk analysis, was the event of some other person in the immediate area taking a lacadasical approach to bee keeping, and ending up with foulbrood that results in a quarantine. End result of that, I cant ship my spring nucs out for sale, and I cant take my bees out to the fireweed patch in the late summer. By my estimates, that would turn into roughly $20K in lost revenue next summer.

You may not care where they go, or how sick they get, but there are probably many other folks in the area that DO CARE.



> It's what they do, right?


No, it's not. Bees are a tropical insect, that live naturally in tree hollows, in tropical and sub-tropical climates. There is absolutely NOTHING natural about boxing them up, shipping a couple thousand miles north of the natural habitat, on a different continent, and then tossing them into man-made boxes with a 'fend for yourself' attitude. Would you do that with your dog ? Toss it outside in April and say 'fend for yourself' ? Reality is, if you want things 'natural' for honeybees in North America, the correct tack to take is figure out how to exterminate them, because they are an invasive imported species.


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## Ted adams (Mar 20, 2012)

Then let them swarm, that's what bees do, if they do you just added bees back to nature, bees survived for years on there own, most will not live but some will. Most of the reason bees have problems surviving is because of man. Maybe the bees will find a way to make it in spite of mankind. I nor most people prevent or catch every swarm from their hives. I am in the country with no house within sight so I do not worry about it.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Treatment free + no swarm control = bee-haver and angry neighbors.

Natural beekeeping = leave them in their hollow tree back in Europe.


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

Okay, I guess I should have stated that I'm not against hive manipulations to try to prevent swarming and/or to manage mites. I do realize that I will have to manage these hives to some extent. I guess what I should ask is how do I simply maintain a set number of hives(4 for me) without splitting/increasing, selling nucs, etc.......? Obviously, my goals are different than someone who makes a living from their bees. What if I simply get rid of the old queen each June/July(north country) and let the bees raise a new one? This would give a brood break to help knock down the mites. Would it also help with swarm prevention, and are there other manipulations to do along with it that would help also? I do realize there are risks associated with the new queen/mating etc..... It's that way with raising anything. Appreciate the thoughts so far.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

hulstbee said:


> Okay, I guess I should have stated that I'm not against hive manipulations to try to prevent swarming and/or to manage mites. I do realize that I will have to manage these hives to some extent. I guess what I should ask is how do I simply maintain a set number of hives(4 for me) without splitting/increasing, selling nucs, etc.......? Obviously, my goals are different than someone who makes a living from their bees. What if I simply get rid of the old queen each June/July(north country) and let the bees raise a new one? This would give a brood break to help knock down the mites. Would it also help with swarm prevention, and are there other manipulations to do along with it that would help also? I do realize there are risks associated with the new queen/mating etc..... It's that way with raising anything. Appreciate the thoughts so far.


Is there a local bee club in your area? I've helped a few other ladies get started with topbar hives and they are somewhat in the same boat as you. They want a fixed number of hives and that is all. I told them that anytime they wanted to split their bees to control swarming, give me a call and I'd come over and take some bees to pass on to others. You may find that there are others in your area who would be happy with the influx of bees and will come do the split for you.


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## Kirk (Jan 3, 2014)

Welcome to Bee Source. That seems like a legitimate question for somebody just starting out. I just started last spring, myself. I encourage you to keep reading and enjoy.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Hulstbee,

I am in a somewhat similar situation as you as I am not at all interested in bees as honey-producers. (I don't like honey and use none in my household.) And I don't want to endlessly increase my hives. I started with three and now have four (split one last spring to avert a swarm) and expect to divide the other two this year. At six or seven, I will be at my self-imposed limit.

What fascinates me about my bees is what you wrote: I like raising things. And I find bees especially interesting in that aspect.

But here's what I have learned: treatment free is not possible in my area unless I just abandon my hives to their fate, which is the antithesis of my husbandry goals. I'm not wild about using anti-mite treatments, but I don't think they would survive more than a year without being treated for mites. My neighbors (in a country-sense as I live on a large farm surrounded by large farms, but still neighbors as far as the bees' foraging range goes) who keep bees are engaged in year-after-year, treatment-free struggle to keep their bees alive from one seaon to the next. Some have TBH, some have Langs, all seem to have more or less constant losses. 

My bees are doing very well, in part, because I _do _treat, and I give them extra care and attention all year round because that''s the whole point of the endeavor, at least for me. My goals are to figure out how to keep my bees alive, healthy and thriving under my care.

And that is made considerably harder because of the choices my neighbors make to not treat (or even monitor!) for mites. And by losing bees every year, they need to bring in new bees each year which raises the chances that some day brood diseases will be brought here, too. 

And you do realize that a swarm leaves with the original over-wintered queen, right? And that 75-80% of all swarms fail to establish and will perish by their first fall and winter? That's not something I would like to happen to my carefully nutured bees. 

I'm still trying to work out how I will handle the reproductive increase issue in future years. Only one out of my three seemed to have any interest in swarming last year. But the two that didn't grew into very large hives which will likely increase their intention to swarm this spring. I will split them to frustrate that as I would like to have a daughter queen from each of my three original colonies. 

I think if you don't treat you can expect to have enough losses that you will need to make splits anyway, just to stay even, so you can handle swarming like that.

Last year this question bothered me a lot because I like to have a clear picture of where I am headed. People here advised me not to worry too much about it as I would likely have losses and need to make them up by splitting. I haven't (so far), but more experience with bees has taught me that there are probably solutions for the "problem" of good survival, too. 

Get your bees, please monitor regularly for mites - and study the issue of treating, without rejecting it out of hand - and see if you really like keeping bees, first, before you spend too much energy on a problem that won't be big issue for a couple of years. 

I hope your bees give you as much delight and satisfaction as mine have given me. (And a lot less consternation and angst!)

Enj.


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

Dave Burrup said:


> Feral hives can become a source for mites, disease, and considerable expence when they move into the wrong places. You will also suffer some attrition with your parent hives because they fail to re-queen themselves.


I guess I was thinking that feral bees in an area could become a source for some of the best bee genetics around. If they can't deal with the mites and diseases they won't be feral bees for long.


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

ruthiesbees said:


> Is there a local bee club in your area? I've helped a few other ladies get started with topbar hives and they are somewhat in the same boat as you. They want a fixed number of hives and that is all. I told them that anytime they wanted to split their bees to control swarming, give me a call and I'd come over and take some bees to pass on to others. You may find that there are others in your area who would be happy with the influx of bees and will come do the split for you.


There is a club about 30 miles from me, and this is a possibility. Was just very curious about how a hive progresses/regresses if allowed to swarm and if one really needed to worry about managing this. Like your Facebook page, been there several times.


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

enjambres said:


> Hulstbee,
> 
> I am in a somewhat similar situation as you as I am not at all interested in bees as honey-producers. (I don't like honey and use none in my household.) And I don't want to endlessly increase my hives. I started with three and now have four (split one last spring to avert a swarm) and expect to divide the other two this year. At six or seven, I will be at my self-imposed limit.
> 
> ...


First off, thanks for such a lengthy and thoughtful reply. Definitely will monitor the mites. Won't say that I will never treat, but it is the end goal. I'll get there. I realize that many swarms don't make it, but that is the way it is supposed to work. Nature is a cruel teacher, but a wise one.


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

Kirk said:


> Welcome to Bee Source. That seems like a legitimate question for somebody just starting out. I just started last spring, myself. I encourage you to keep reading and enjoy.


Thank you!


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

grozzie2 said:


> Glad you aren't my neighbor. Over the last few years we have put considerable time and expense into expanding our apiary to become a significant source of revenue. One of my most catastrophic risk factors when we did our risk analysis, was the event of some other person in the immediate area taking a lacadasical approach to bee keeping, and ending up with foulbrood that results in a quarantine. End result of that, I cant ship my spring nucs out for sale, and I cant take my bees out to the fireweed patch in the late summer. By my estimates, that would turn into roughly $20K in lost revenue next summer.
> 
> You may not care where they go, or how sick they get, but there are probably many other folks in the area that DO CARE.
> 
> No, it's not. Bees are a tropical insect, that live naturally in tree hollows, in tropical and sub-tropical climates. There is absolutely NOTHING natural about boxing them up, shipping a couple thousand miles north of the natural habitat, on a different continent, and then tossing them into man-made boxes with a 'fend for yourself' attitude. Would you do that with your dog ? Toss it outside in April and say 'fend for yourself' ? Reality is, if you want things 'natural' for honeybees in North America, the correct tack to take is figure out how to exterminate them, because they are an invasive imported species.


4 hives in a woodlot vs. 10s or 100s of hives packed in a field. Experience with other species tells me which one of these places is at a greater risk of disease and spreading it, but I understand your concern.

I consider wild honey bees a plus. I have rural neighbors who consider their free-roaming farm cats a plus, I don't. If someone has wild bees on their property they can deal with them as they see fit, it's their property. Kinda the way it works out here, been working that way for a long time.

Got 9 dogs, all in kennels, all a little fat for the Winter, none have ever been off my property without me. Couple could probably fend for themselves. Don't want more dogs, don't want to raise puppies, like what I have, and I know how to keep it that way. Trying to figure out how to do the same thing with a completely different species.


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

4 hives in a wood lot or 100s in a field all depends on the size of the lot or field. Home range for a bee is far greater than the home range of a feral cat or dog. 

While honey bees are not tropical they are not native the Americas. That being said I am sure even the best beekeepers release a swarm or two intended or not.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What if I just let them swarm?

The main downside is that you don't get any honey. The secondary downside is that it leaves them weak and vulnerable to ending up queenless. It's not that there is something wrong with it, it's just easier to get what you want out of a colony if you manage them. As for neighbors, I'll bet they'll never even notice you have bees and they are even less likely to notice that they swarmed. I've never had angry neighbors over swarming. The only time I ever got complaints were when the neighbor left sugar out on a table in a dearth and they weren't even my bees. They were black bees that were flying off the other direction. And the one who said they were chasing her grandsons and biting them... which was yellow jackets of course.

>Okay, hopefully this information will help you understand my situation and answer my question. Once I have the 4 hives filled, what if I just let them naturally swarm each year? I don't want more than the 4 hives, got enough to do. I live in the country(mixed cropland and hardwood forest) so I'm not worried about where they go.

I don't think you'll find that you'll end up with too many hives. Swarm management is much more than just doing splits and you can always do combines if you have too many hives or sell them off. A combine just at the start of a flow can make a bumper crop. A combine going into winter may improve their overwintering by having a large enough cluster to keep warm. Even if you do splits, there is nothing stopping you from doing a combine anytime other than prime swarm season.

>Be great to have some more honey bees around, haven't seen one near my place in years, and I'm always looking.

I'm not convinced that allowing our "commercial" bees to escape is helping the gene pool...

>Will my hives survive and continue on if I just let them do what they want as far as swarming goes?

Every time they swarm there is the risk of ending up queenless but there is also the upside of getting a young queen.

> It's what they do, right?

Yes. But it's not very conducive to getting honey...


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Ted adams said:


> Then let them swarm, that's what bees do, if they do you just added bees back to nature, bees survived for years on there own, most will not live but some will. Most of the reason bees have problems surviving is because of man. Maybe the bees will find a way to make it in spite of mankind. I nor most people prevent or catch every swarm from their hives. I am in the country with no house within sight so I do not worry about it.


That was probably true before man introduced the mites with his imported bees. Now I think the thing that causes bees the most problem is the mite. Pesticides are pretty bad, but they can't compare with mites.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

If you want 4 hives treatment free, you will need to maintain 8 hives for a few years until the "survivor stock" develops. Even then, if the bees are allowed to swarm every time they decide they don't like their environment, you may still have a problem keeping 4 hives.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

hulstbee said:


> I consider wild honey bees a plus


So do I, but, there are no wild bees in our area, and package bees that escape, are not wild bees. If you have experience raising livestock of other types, then you should read the first part of this article to get a bit better understanding.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/


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## CMooreBees (Jan 11, 2015)

grozzie2 said:


> So do I, but, there are no wild bees in our area, and package bees that escape, are not wild bees. If you have experience raising livestock of other types, then you should read the first part of this article to get a bit better understanding.
> 
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/


In case someone doesn't click the link here is the paragraph referenced, should be required reading;

"Unfortunately, there is also a great deal of confusion as to what “treatment free” beekeeping really means. Allow me to use an analogy to explain:

Dairymen prefer to keep Holstein cattle. Holsteins are thin-skinned, thoroughly domesticated cattle selected solely for milk production. Their normal care requires shelter, supplemental feeding, routine vaccinations, and treatment with antibiotics. If a dairyman turned his Holsteins out on the range to fend for themselves without care, and half of them died each year, he would be accused of having committed animal neglect—“the failure to provide the basic care required for an animal to thrive.”

Yet this is exactly what thousands of recreational beekeepers do every year. Under the misconception that they are practicing “treatment free” beekeeping, they are in actuality simply neglecting their domesticated animals. The reason for this is that they are starting with commercial package bees—bees akin to Holstein cattle, in that they are bred for high brood and honey production under standard management practices (notably mite management, but also supplemental feeding or antibiotic treatment if indicated). Most commercial bee stocks should be considered as domesticated animals. There is absolutely no reason to expect that your wishful thinking will miraculously transform your newly-purchased “domesticated” bees into hardy survivor stock able to survive as wild animals without standard care and treatment.

Now don’t get me wrong, I am no more criticizing the commercial queen producers than I would criticize the dedicated breeders of Holstein cattle. The queen breeders are producing the best breeds for beekeepers willing to provide their colonies with the “standard” degree of husbandry (which includes at this time, treatment(s) of some sort for varroa). I have no problem whatsoever with that; but my crystal ball says that someday the market will dwindle for bees that require regular treatment for mites.

Do not delude yourself. Allowing domesticated package colonies to die year after year is not in any way, shape, or form a contribution to the breeding of mite-resistant stocks. There is a vast difference between breeding for survivor stock and simply allowing commercial bees to die from neglect! By introducing commercial bees year after year into an area, and then allowing those package colonies to first produce drones and then to later die from varroa, these well-meaning but misguided beekeepers screw up any evolutionary progress that the local feral populations might be making towards developing natural resistance to varroa. Not only that, but those collapsing “mite bombs” create problems for your neighbors. Referring to yourself as a bee-keeper confers upon you a responsibility to the local beekeeping community. Allowing hives to collapse from AFB or varroa makes you a disease-spreading nuisance!

Update April 15, 2014: I’ve received a great deal of positive feedback from experienced beekeepers who have been frustrated by all the well-intentioned, but sadly misguided, feel-good dreamers who don’t understand the difference between working with nature to promote varroa-resistant bee stocks, versus neglecting livestock that you have taken under your care. I like Rusty Burlew’s blog ““Let the bees be bees” Really?” "


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## Millenia (Apr 8, 2014)

CMooreBees said:


> In case someone doesn't click the link here is the paragraph referenced, should be required reading;
> 
> "Unfortunately, there is also a great deal of confusion as to what “treatment free” beekeeping really means. Allow me to use an analogy to explain:
> 
> ...


Absolutely wonderful article, thank you.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

CMooreBees, What a great first post. Welcome to Beesource! I could not agree more.


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## Beerz (Feb 11, 2013)

Clearly, there are treatment-free _strategies_. But, I do suspect that that concept gets confused with a do-nothing approach. I am a relatively new to the hobby, but it amuses even me that starting around this time of year and proceeding over the next couple of months that folks will inquire as to why their bees have died. Yet, they leave out of the dialogue that they are so-called treatment free - as though that wasn't even a consideration in the demise of their hive. It seems to me you either treat or have a robust strategy for _not_ treating. If you have neither you're results will be fairly predictable.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

CMooreBees said:


> I like Rusty Burlew’s blog ““Let the bees be bees” Really?” "


That reference should join the original link as 'required reading'. Here is the link that doesn't come along with the cut and paste of the first article:-

http://www.honeybeesuite.com/let-the-bees-be-bees-really/

It's well worth the 3 minutes to click the link, and read the article.


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

CMooreBees said:


> In case someone doesn't click the link here is the paragraph referenced, should be required reading;
> 
> "Unfortunately, there is also a great deal of confusion as to what “treatment free” beekeeping really means. Allow me to use an analogy to explain:
> 
> ...


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

CMooreBees said:


> In case someone doesn't click the link here is the paragraph referenced, should be required reading;
> 
> "Unfortunately, there is also a great deal of confusion as to what “treatment free” beekeeping really means. Allow me to use an analogy to explain:
> 
> ...


I guess my impression as a beginner has been that even today's honey bees are a lot closer to their wild ancestors than a holstein cow is to hers. Maybe wrong. That being said, I think that is a great article and understand fully what they are saying. That's why I ordered treatment free "mutt" bees to start with. Don't think southern Italians would cut it for me. Under no impression that the mutts won't also take some proper management. That's why I'm here.:thumbsup:


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >What if I just let them swarm?
> 
> The main downside is that you don't get any honey. The secondary downside is that it leaves them weak and vulnerable to ending up queenless. It's not that there is something wrong with it, it's just easier to get what you want out of a colony if you manage them. As for neighbors, I'll bet they'll never even notice you have bees and they are even less likely to notice that they swarmed. I've never had angry neighbors over swarming. The only time I ever got complaints were when the neighbor left sugar out on a table in a dearth and they weren't even my bees. They were black bees that were flying off the other direction. And the one who said they were chasing her grandsons and biting them... which was yellow jackets of course.
> 
> ...


Thanks Michael. Very constructive. Will do more reading on combining. You are right, I'm guessing my neighbors will never know I have bees. Thanks for your website also, very informative.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

hulstbee said:


> I guess my impression as a beginner has been that even today's honey bees are a lot closer to their wild ancestors than a holstein cow is to hers.:



I think there is probably some truth to that....... probably more like comparing them to a goat or a pig........ both of which will revert back to Ferrell traits rather quickly if dumped in the wild.... yes many would die if just dumped but some would go on to breed better suited " wild stock" With that being said, I don't recommend letting them swarm at will, my suggestion is spit them enough to make up nucs to replace winter loss, and then any above that either sell at the local bee club....craig's list. Or combine with the smaller of your parent hives.


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

Just wanna get things back on track with my original introduction and questions. Remember, my number one goal was to have the hives survive from year to year. Never said I was going to dump them in and walk away forever. Simply wondered how I could maintain a small set number of hives when these things tend to reproduce like mad if things go well? Was wondering what tends to happen to hives that swarm and how they fare afterwards? Whether feral bees are a good or bad thing depends on a lot of things, and your perspective, didn't really want to debate that, but it has been good discussion. Treatment free was a goal, not sure if people take that as I don't want to do anything with them. I ordered treatment free mutt bees as a first step in helping me get to that goal. I consider it a worthy goal and am very interested in hive management techniques and bringing in the right genetics to help me get there. Maybe the combo of the swarm question, the treatment free goal, and not wanting to expand to a bunch of hives got us started down the track of 'another do-good beginner who doesn't want to manage his bees at all'. Far from my intention. My situation is much different than someone who wants to sell honey or bees, but you are probably going to see more like me. Your bees are getting a lot of attention nowadays, and you should be happy about that. Turns out they are fascinating creatures. Surely with all the experience here there have to be thoughts on simply maintaining a set number of hives. Thanks for those that have already been given.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

To the original question:

Do a split, taking the nurse bees and most brood into a new hive in a new location, and leaving the old queen and foragers in the old location. This will simulate a swarm and suppress further swarming by the old queen. Allow the new hive to re-queen, or re-queen it yourself with a purchased queen. Sell off one of the hives to maintain your original number.

Lots of other ways to split a hive, too.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

you have been given plenty of advice on how to maintain 4 hives...... just pick one that suits your needs and go from there, but going into winter with 4 hives and coming out of winter with 4 hives and expecting to do that every yr is most likely not going to happen..............Heck I wanted 4 hives my first yr so I went into that first winter with 8 came out with a big fat goose egg.


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> you have been given plenty of advice on how to maintain 4 hives...... just pick one that suits your needs and go from there, but going into winter with 4 hives and coming out of winter with 4 hives and expecting to do that every yr is most likely not going to happen..............Heck I wanted 4 hives my first yr so I went into that first winter with 8 came out with a big fat goose egg.


I hear ya'. I guess just trying to look ahead and plan for the best, if the best happens, then I gotta have a plan.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Whether you treat or not, if you want to have four hives in the spring the best way to accomplish that is to go into winter with eight. You can combine before the flow if they all make it or sell off the extras. If half of them die you'll have your 4. Most people don't have the problem of too many hives...


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

hulstbee said:


> I hear ya'. I guess just trying to look ahead and plan for the best, if the best happens, then I gotta have a plan.



right I understand that, but it might better suit you to hope for the best and plan for the worst.............It's a LOT LESS expensive that way


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Harley Craig said:


> right I understand that, but it might better suit you to hope for the best and plan for the worst.............It's a LOT LESS expensive that way


The problem with that is, if you plan for the worst, and best arrives, you will be WAY short of equipment. Better to plan for the best, and expect the worst. Then you are well prepared with equipment, and not disappointed if you end up leaving it empty.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

grozzie2 said:


> The problem with that is, if you plan for the worst, and best arrives, you will be WAY short of equipment. Better to plan for the best, and expect the worst. Then you are well prepared with equipment, and not disappointed if you end up leaving it empty.


right under any other circumstances I would agree with you, but it sounds like his plan for the best is to have 4 colonies and 4 hives............ planning for the worst and making up extra colonies to overwinter automatically gets you extra equipment  How many new guys you know have a 100% overwinter rate with any amount of reoccurring success?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

hulstbee said:


> I guess I was thinking that feral bees in an area could become a source for some of the best bee genetics around. If they can't deal with the mites and diseases they won't be feral bees for long.


that's good thinking hulstbee and is proving to be the case where i live. when my hives swarm i'll try to catch the ones that are easy pickin's and let the ones that are too high up go. about half of them are caught and the rest are allowed to fly away. 

my bees were originally derived from feral cut outs so i like the idea of seeding some of them back into nearby woods and having them there to provide survivor drones for my queens to mate with. 

you can determine whether or not you have ferals around by putting out a small open feeder and seeing if it attracts bees from the direction of your wooded areas. if so, you might consider placing swarm traps out and attempt to collect some of them.

welcome aboard and good luck with your venture. glad to see you are thick skinned enough as to be deterred by those with opposing views.


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> that's good thinking hulstbee and is proving to be the case where i live. when my hives swarm i'll try to catch the ones that are easy pickin's and let the ones that are too high up go. about half of them are caught and the rest are allowed to fly away.
> 
> my bees were originally derived from feral cut outs so i like the idea of seeding some of them back into nearby woods and having them there to provide survivor drones for my queens to mate with.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I have a ton of stuff on my place that honey bees ought to love(berries, fruit trees, plenty of dandelions, clover, other flowers, etc.....), but haven't seen one in years. Plenty of yellow jackets, bumblebees, wasps... My first hive was actually finished last Winter, but I didn't want to rush into this so I built another hive and waited until this year to order bees. I set that first hive out over the Summer with a little lemon oil and swarm lure in it, but no luck. Just don't think there are any within bee flying distance of my place.
I would have to say that I am a little surprised when it is implied that somehow having only 20% of swarms survive is a terrible cruel thing and the reason only 20% survive is because they are a domestic species dependent on people to care for them. I understand they are not native here, but many things are not native here. A one-year 20% survival rate would be very common in many wild animals. I'm fine with survival of the fittest. We may have messed this up a bit, but it will revert if we let it, and maybe we can even help. But I do understand this can be painful for those who are making their living from bees. I am not without empathy.


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> right under any other circumstances I would agree with you, but it sounds like his plan for the best is to have 4 colonies and 4 hives............ planning for the worst and making up extra colonies to overwinter automatically gets you extra equipment  How many new guys you know have a 100% overwinter rate with any amount of reoccurring success?


I do expect losses, be a fool not too, but I also don't like to lose, and at some point I will have 4 hives full of bees. Then I gotta have a plan that fits me. Already workin' on it.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

hmm. not seeing a single bee on any of the blooms on your place suggests that there may not be many ferals suriving within flying distance of your location. i might consider placing quail feeders with scented feed around the wooded areas nearby and seeing if they attract any bees. 

it varies by location, but almost all swarming here is limited to about a one month period between mid april and mid may. it could be that if your traps were placed after prime swarm season they may not have drawn much attention.


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> Whether you treat or not, if you want to have four hives in the spring the best way to accomplish that is to go into winter with eight. You can combine before the flow if they all make it or sell off the extras. If half of them die you'll have your 4. Most people don't have the problem of too many hives...


Understood. Bear with me and let me present you with a hive situation and a rough plan, then you(and others) can let me know what you think. Package of bees arrives in early May, bees do well and go into Winter in good shape, bees survive the Winter and really take off in Spring. June/July that hive is full and could swarm. I don't want it to swarm, and I don't want another hive. What if I get rid of the old queen and have them start with a new one? Options would be for them to raise one from a swarm cell if one already exists, stimulate them to make queen cells if there are none(Mel Disselkoen way), buy a virgin, buy a queen cell. Don't want a mated queen, she will lay right away. At the same time one could also possibly remove some bars or frames(how many?) of comb(brood, drone, honey????) and give them empty ones so they have something to do(build comb) and more room. Now I still have my hive full of bees, I will have a new young queen(I know, 75% of the time), and I have given them a brood break to knock back the mites. They will get another break in the Winter and should go into the Winter with a lot of young bees? Now I don't have to worry about selling a nuc....I can manage the bees and leave the people out of it. They are generally more trouble than any critter. I hope that makes you all laugh. Please let me know what you(others too) think of this. Could it work and where are potential problems and solutions? Would this give the right bees the proper edge on the Varroa in order to survive?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i can't speak from experience about trying to hold a colony count at 'x' because i'll utilize any and all colonies i can get and i find it easy to sell off any surplus. this is more practical if using standard lang equipment. if you are as remote as you suggest, and aren't interested in a big honey harvest, i like your original idea of just letting them swarm off into the wooded areas and see if they take hold. can you share your source for the treatment free 'mutt' packages?


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

First, I think you'll find that it is difficult to have 4 hives that live in perpetuity. Some will die, and you can split to replace them. 

Second, if you don't want to manage bees for honey production, manage them for nuc production. I can't think of anything that is in greater demand or shorter supply than good quality nucs with local genetics from survivor stock. You could make some money to cover the costs of keep your bees and supply a much needed product to beekeepers in your area. The swarms would become your nucs. That will take some learning, but if you enjoy keeping the bees, it would be a fun learning process.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

If you plan on killing your over-wintered queen so the bees will cook up a new one (as an anti-swarm tactic) you will do two things that you may not have desired:

1) You will be killing the queen that has successfully brought a colony through the winter. One of her daughters will go out and be mated, but that single daughter queen may not turn out to have the same survivor moxie. However having killed the wintering queen there's no going back;

2) Killing the queen early enough to reliably head off swarming will put you in the queen-mating business a bit earlier than may be desirable. The best queens are _mated_ after the Soltice (June 21st), when flow-fed drones abound. But heading off swarming needs to happen about a month earlier - perhaps too early for a large populaton of drones to be available when the home-cooked queens need to mate. If your swarm-prevention new queen turns out to be a dud, or even lays but not a lot, you'll be losing time and also getting an additional generation away from original winter-surviving queen. 

A planned split is better because you keep the wintered queen alive long enough to make sure that her daughter will be successful, plus you control the timing. Not all splits are successful, but even if you wind up with an extra colony you can combine back (choosing which queen to keep). There is also something called a Snelgrove board which allows you manage swarms, while keeping the same number of colonies. I have not used it, yet, but plan to this spring. 

Don't discount the advice being given that you're unlikely to be able to keep all your TF colonies alive from year to year. We'd all be TF if it was that easy. It simply isn't, at least in my experience. I did successfully keep my three original colonies from 2013 alive (and they are still with me today), but if I had stubbornly clung to what I thought I wanted - to be treatment free - I doubt I would be able to say the same thing.

To be _successfully_ raising bees in my area, requires some modest treatments. I am not content to allow my bees to suffer and languish just to prove a point. I do not think that a small scale apiary like mine (or like your proposed four colonies) can do diddly to promote "survivor" stock. I think you will find it interesting to read more about the biology of bee reproduction, it doesn't work the way many new beekeepers think it does.

My bees are all swarms that arrived here in 2013. Whether they were swarms from true feral colonies (of which there are several I know about within a few miles from here) or escapes from managed colonies, I'm not sure. I had unmanaged feral bees living in my barns for two decades before they all perished in early 2013, only to be replaced with the three swarms I had hived. And my bees survived my best clue-less, new-beek efforts to care for them, so they must be very tough bees.

Get your bees, but don't split them aggressively the first year or two, and let your apiary grow slowly while you get some experience raising them. I think you'll find your right path even if it is, like mine, not the more-common one of honey production.

Enj.


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> i can't speak from experience about trying to hold a colony count at 'x' because i'll utilize any and all colonies i can get and i find it easy to sell off any surplus. this is more practical if using standard lang equipment. if you are as remote as you suggest, and aren't interested in a big honey harvest, i like your original idea of just letting them swarm off into the wooded areas and see if they take hold. can you share your source for the treatment free 'mutt' packages?


The bees are ordered from Gold Star honeybees in Maine. Supposed to be a mix of Russians, Carnis, and Italians.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Aren't they the ones that claim packages are superior to nucs? And at $160 a pop I hope you don't lose em to swarms


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

enjambres said:


> If you plan on killing your over-wintered queen so the bees will cook up a new one (as an anti-swarm tactic) you will do two things that you may not have desired:
> 
> 1) You will be killing the queen that has successfully brought a colony through the winter. One of her daughters will go out and be mated, but that single daughter queen may not turn out to have the same survivor moxie. However having killed the wintering queen there's no going back;
> 
> ...


Thanks again for another good detailed response. I will have to look into the swarming and best mating timing for my area. Understand your points. Can you explain to me how/why the bees in your barn could survive for 2 decades, but yet it is hard to get your feral swarm bees to survive in a hive without treatment? I realize they might not be the same bees, but good chance they may be related? Isn't it likely all the bees in the area(hived and feral) are dealing with the same parasites and diseases?


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> Aren't they the ones that claim packages are superior to nucs? And at $160 a pop I hope you don't lose em to swarms[/QUOTE
> 
> Me too! I think their claim is related to the fact that they are promoting top bar hives and it is easier to install a package than cut up a lang nuc to install in a top bar. If I could find top bar nucs with good bees for my area, and in my area, I'd be buying those. That is part of the reason I want to build 2 long langs for next year, might be easier to fill those with nucs if I need too. Of course I hope to fill them with bees from the top bars I am starting this year, see how it goes.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"If I could find top bar nucs with good bees for my area, and in my area, I'd be buying those."

Welcome. I like your thought out posts. One of the problems with top bar nucs is that there doesn't seem to be a standard length of the top bars. So, you have to find the exact length you're using or adapt the bars to your hive.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Well, before I was a beekeeper I would have thought (if I thought about it all) that the same bees were livng there all the time. Or at least the decendants of the same bees, since I wouldn't have imagined an individual bee lived for two decades. But I didn't pay much attention to them, I'm afraid.

Since I was a child, I believed myself to be one of those unfortunate souls with an anaphylactic reaction to honey bee stings, so when I first noticed the bees I steered clear of them, though I did nothing to molest them. This is a large, pre Civil-War farmstead so it wasn't hard to avoid the bees and let them just go about their business. Because I am always curious about the natural history on my farm, I would occasionally get close enough to observe them with binoculars, but being busy with running the farm and family affairs that wasn't often. Occasionally I recall noticing it was spring and thinking the bees must be "hibernating" late (the openings for the colonies were on the north and northeast sides of a building so it seemed like it would be colder there.) But in my farm notes there never was a summer when I did not see "my" bees from 1992 onwards, until the spring of 2013. 

I know they were there in December of 2012 because one of my last pre-winter chores of the year is to throw up the extension ladder and shut upper door in the gable end of the haw mow. I always tried to do this on a cold day when the bees weren't active as I didn't want to be three stories up over the bee-openings and have an allergic problem. December 2012 was a bit warmer than expected and my husband was unable to climb ladders right then, so I remember well that I suited up with extra layers and climbed over the openings past the flying bees.

In the Spring of 2013 I had a little job that kept me away from my fields for most of the month of May. One Sunday I was sitting out in my strawberry field and noticed it seemed unnaturally quiet. And then I realized the flowers weren't being worked by any honey bees. A quick check confirmed that there were no bees in my barn cavities. I was appalled as I had intended to do "something" about the bees the previous summer but Life (and procrastination) had got in the way. To my intense relief and delight, after about two weeks of no bees, a swarm appeared and claimed the empty cavity. I hurried up to my nearest supplier (Betterbee) and asked for advice. In the end they decided to schedule a workshop on doing cut-outs at my place because my barns are timber-framed and so therefore easy to access the cavities. But before the workshop occurred, a second, and finally a _third_ new swarm appeared and claimed additional areas of the barn. And so I had three swarms cut-out and hived the same day. Talk about hitting the jackpot! (The girls had other ideas and no sooner had the workshop participants departed than they un-hived themselves and returned to the walls, but that's a whole 'nuther story.)

Anyway, you asked about whether my long-standing unmanaged colony proves there can be successful feral colonies. Well, yes and, no. My barn walls (when we opened them to get the bees) were filled from sill to collar beam with cappped honey comb - the lifework of decades of bees. But not the same bees, I now understand. I think it most likely that when I noted the "late" appearance of bee activity what I was seeing was the same thing I saw in 2013: death of the previous year's colony followed by the rich trove of honey being claimed by new swarms of the following year. So I had _sequential_ colonies for two decades in the same place.

Why would that happen: well, the most important reason is likey to be varroa. It came to the US in 1986. It may have taken a few years to make it from Miami to northern NY. I have records in my farm notebooks of seeing bees in my barns as early as 1992. In about 1994/95 a sideliner beekeeper moved to my area. This beekeeper does not generally treat - but he sustains very heavy losses and just buys dozens of packages every year. In addition, a couple of my neighbors, as recently as 5 or 6 years ago, started to keep bees. They are much closer, and they don't treat because it's "unnatural" and because they want to breed "survivor bees", having heard so much about them. They have only have a few colonies, and they regularly lose their bees in the winter and need to buy more.

What I think happened to my former barn bees over the course of the two decades: I had (and still have) some feral bees living in my woodlot and around in my town. But varroa arrived in the late 1980s and then more beekeepers moved to the area or took up the hobby. They brought mites (as all nucs and packages seem to do) and they were disinclined to deal with the mites so gradually more feral and unmanaged colonies crashed as they got over-run. But imported bees are still coming into my area, and some may survive their first year strong enough to throw an occasional swarm if the winter isn't too bad (as the winter of 2012-2013 was.). These are repeatedly re-populating the existing resources and cavities left behind bees that havealready died from mites. But they are they contiue to suffer from the uncontrolled varroa populations, and since they are untreated, they will likely succumb in the end,too. Meanwhile they are serving as infectious reservoirs for any feral or unmanaged colony that is barely scraping by and a management problem for any managed nearby. 

Since this seems to be what I am dealing with, I have concluded that the only way for me to be a beekeeper, not just a bee-haver, and constant bee buyer, is to manage and treat for varroa. The key for me is figuring out what I want to use to handle the inevitable re-infection from failing hives being deliberately maintained by nearby beekeepers who apparently believe they are doing some kind of a good thing. I hate to treat, but I hate the idea of my bees suffering and dying even more. And since I don't have hundreds of colonies of bees in thousands of acres of isolation where I could select and control for genetic hygenic behavior, I have no illusions that I could magically create the conditions for a race of survivor bees to emerge. 

You are farther north than I am here in northern NY, and being even colder, your climate may be rigorous enough that any challenge at all from varroa is too large and perhaps the feral and unmanaged colonies hives died out more quickly. So you may be in an area that has now been cleared of ferals due to mite parasitization, and has few, or no other beekeepers. If so, you may get lucky and have less mite-pressure than I do. I hope so, for your bees' sakes. 

But you do know that most likely (or perhaps even _more_ likely), even from a TF mutt source, you are almost certain to be paying $160 for bees and some mites thrown in for free? 

In some ways even if you mean to be TF going forward, it might be wise to treat your bees immediately on arrival, before they can brood, with something that will kill the phoretic mites that come with them. (NOTE: This is risky for reasons of good package establishment and queen acceptance and survival. But it would be a great strategy to at least begin with a very low level of mites. However, no treatment is guaranteed to kill every single one.) If you chose to do something like this I would suggest oxalic acid vaporization (OAV) as a good choice. It is a single-time treatment and only takes a few minutes, and doesn't appear to harm bees or the queen. The equipment, though, will cost almost as much as your bees, particularly if you can't "ammortize" the cost of it by treating on a semi-annual basis going forwards. It is also not, yet, approved for use in hives. If another swarm appears in my barn cavities, I would hive it and treat it at once with OAV.

One positive thing I have found by keeping bees (aside from the unending joy of doing so) is that it turns out I am not allergic to their stings after all. It appears to be something my parents thought and passed on to me. They are both dead now so I can't ask them any details about whatever happened to make them believe that. But I no longer worry about being stung by honeybees, which is very useful since I grow vegetables and fruit (and have all my adult life) and it has been a concern to me for decades. 

Enj.


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

enjambres said:


> Well, before I was a beekeeper I would have thought (if I thought about it all) that the same bees were livng there all the time. Or at least the decendants of the same bees, since I wouldn't have imagined an individual bee lived for two decades. But I didn't pay much attention to them, I'm afraid.
> 
> Since I was a child, I believed myself to be one of those unfortunate souls with an anaphylactic reaction to honey bee stings, so when I first noticed the bees I steered clear of them, though I did nothing to molest them. This is a large, pre Civil-War farmstead so it wasn't hard to avoid the bees and let them just go about their business. Because I am always curious about the natural history on my farm, I would occasionally get close enough to observe them with binoculars, but being busy with running the farm and family affairs that wasn't often. Occasionally I recall noticing it was spring and thinking the bees must be "hibernating" late (the openings for the colonies were on the north and northeast sides of a building so it seemed like it would be colder there.) But in my farm notes there never was a summer when I did not see "my" bees from 1992 onwards, until the spring of 2013.
> 
> ...


Very informative and interesting post. Yup, I'm aware they will come with mites. What if I remove the mites from each bee as I unpackage them? Okay, I could hardly keep from laughing out loud as I typed that. I hope everyone else gets a good laugh too. I am going to read more on the OAV. I know I have beekeepers 30 miles to the west and 20 miles to the east, but I think I am in a pocket where there just happen to be none within normal bee range, that could change too. Used to see plenty of honey bees in the 70s and early 80s, haven't seen one in a long time.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

If you saw plenty of honey bees in the 70s and early 80s, then you can conclude that, in general, your forage and climate will support survival of feral colonies. But if you haven't seen them lately I would guess that beekeepers brought mites to your state, and then the mites spread unchecked and extirpated the existing feral colonies, even without managed beekeepers being near to you. Mites are spread by horizontal transmission among colonies.

Anytime beekeepers bring bees to an area, they are likely to be bringing mites with them, particuarly if they are not devoted to killing the mites. You, too, might be about to unintentionally do that, perhaps with negative results for any small pockets of feral bees that have survived (so far) the holocaust that mites bring. 

Last fall there was a long thread here that started when someone asked about the advisability of installing managed, but with aTF-approach to mites, colonies near a large area where there were presumed to be established true ferals in a wilderness area. The idea was to somehow capture the genetic mite survival traits from the ferals and introject them into maanaged bees' DNA. I tried mightily (until I gave up) to get this fellow to understand that taking bees with mites into an area with a stable population of ferals might devastate the ferals, and to no good purpose. He was convinced (erroneously) that honey bees had once had been truly wild, _native_ animals in North America and thus able to overcome or coexist with mites, instead of being the exotic, tropical creatures that they are. And he had fallen under the emotional sway of the "Save the Poor Bees" propaganda. 

If you haven't already done so, I would hunt up information about the studies on feral bee coloniess (and mites) done in the Arnot Forest of NY by Dr. Tom Seeley of Cornell. It will give you much food for thought, I think.

Enj.


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

enjambres said:


> If you saw plenty of honey bees in the 70s and early 80s, then you can conclude that, in general, your forage and climate will support survival of feral colonies. But if you haven't seen them lately I would guess that beekeepers brought mites to your state, and then the mites spread unchecked and extirpated the existing feral colonies, even without managed beekeepers being near to you. Mites are spread by horizontal transmission among colonies.
> 
> Anytime beekeepers bring bees to an area, they are likely to be bringing mites with them, particuarly if they are not devoted to killing the mites. You, too, might be about to unintentionally do that, perhaps with negative results for any small pockets of feral bees that have survived (so far) the holocaust that mites bring.
> 
> ...


Will look this up, thank you.


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## gman1001 (Sep 24, 2013)

hulstbee said:


> Okay, I guess I should have stated that I'm not against hive manipulations to try to prevent swarming and/or to manage mites. I do realize that I will have to manage these hives to some extent. I guess what I should ask is how do I simply maintain a set number of hives(4 for me) without splitting/increasing, selling nucs, etc.......? Obviously, my goals are different than someone who makes a living from their bees. What if I simply get rid of the old queen each June/July(north country) and let the bees raise a new one? This would give a brood break to help knock down the mites. Would it also help with swarm prevention, and are there other manipulations to do along with it that would help also? I do realize there are risks associated with the new queen/mating etc..... It's that way with raising anything. Appreciate the thoughts so far.


GREAT question. I'm in my 2nd year. First year my Italian hive that I thought I actively managed swarmed 4 times!

I live on 1/4 acre and luckily I have great neighbors who enjoyed watching me gather the swarms which was super easy.

One thing I was and still am not prepared is swarm prep. For the first two swarms I rushed out and bought hives. Expensive and not smart. The next two I posted on craigslist and had buyers IMMEDIATLY. 

This hive still produced about 75lbs honey this year and is alive as of yesterday. After all this experience of actively managing this hive and experiencing all these swarms I'm still not sure how to manage the hive this summer given that I do not wish to get into the split/nuc game.

My 2 cents.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Trying to prevent a hive from growing is like trying to keep a puppy from growing into a dog... also it's the opposite of proper management. You want them to thrive, not languish.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

hulstbee said:


> It's what they do, right?


It is but if you encourage swarming by not discouraging it the hives you have in your yard have less of a chance of survival. IMO It is better to force the swarm with splits and keep the strong ones if you don't want more hives.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

hulstbee said:


> Very informative and interesting post. Yup, I'm aware they will come with mites. What if I remove the mites from each bee as I unpackage them? Okay, I could hardly keep from laughing out loud as I typed that. I hope everyone else gets a good laugh too.


I have met Christy (from Goldstar) and talked to her a couple of times. The last time was a couple of years ago. If I'm not mistaken, she was saying that the mite problem should not be left unmanaged, and at that time was advocating using powdered sugar with regular hive inspections. I have not used this method so I have no opinion on the merits of it, or how successful it might be. I know that others [who are concerned about using chemicals] have recommended the powdered sugar treatment but I cannot speak to its efficacy.

I have some opinions regarding some of her attitudes and statements but I do not see how they will add any value to this particular discussion, so I will refrain from repeating them. Suffice to say that the statements 'chemical free' and 'treatment free' do not necessarily mean that the issue of mites is to be ignored and nothing should be done about them.

My only (and admittedly inexperienced) opinion on the powdered sugar method of mite control is that it seems to me to be too much trouble for me to go through. (Needs to be done weekly.) Formic acid is my preferred method of control, which (according to the EPA) "_...is an alternative to the synthetic pyrethroid and organophosphate
products currently in use in the U.S., and is *not expected to result in residues above the levels of formic acid naturally occurring in honey*. Residues of formic acid are exempt from tolerance requirements. No environmental risk is expected."_ Note that formic acid occurs naturally in honey and is not considered a 'contaminant'. Full EPA document here:

http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/chem_search/reg_actions/registration/fs_PC-214900_01-Apr-05.pdf

More on the powdered sugar method here:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/pow...weet-and-safe-but-does-it-really-work-part-1/

It is likely that you will need to choose some method(s) of management. The method(s) you choose will depend on your time constraints and (if any) level of aversion to chemicals (and the possibly realized resistance to them), and/or preference to 'organic' or 'natural' treatments. You need to choose for yourself the method(s) with which you are comfortable.

As to your joke about "...removing the mites from each bee" as you unpackage them, note the following (from the Scientific Beekeeping page link above):



> So is sugar dusting a panacea for mite problems? Unfortunately, no. Then is dusting without merit? Hardly! *Sugar dusting* can be quite effective for reducing the mite population in broodless (or nearly broodless) bees, such as during summer dearths or in winter (if the bees are not tightly clustered). It also *works quite well to drop mites from package bees*, shook bees, or swarms. Another use is to “clean up” new nucs (best applied at day 7 after the queen begins laying–just before the first brood begins to be sealed).


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> I have met Christy (from Goldstar) and talked to her a couple of times. The last time was a couple of years ago. If I'm not mistaken, she was saying that the mite problem should not be left unmanaged, and at that time was advocating using powdered sugar with regular hive inspections. I have not used this method so I have no opinion on the merits of it, or how successful it might be. I know that others [who are concerned about using chemicals] have recommended the powdered sugar treatment but I cannot speak to its efficacy.
> 
> I have some opinions regarding some of her attitudes and statements but I do not see how they will add any value to this particular discussion, so I will refrain from repeating them. Suffice to say that the statements 'chemical free' and 'treatment free' do not necessarily mean that the issue of mites is to be ignored and nothing should be done about them.
> 
> ...


Good information. Thank you. So if one were to sugar dust a package would it work to hive them and dust them at the same time, or be better to hive them and wait a few days to dust them? I'm wondering if doing it at hiving would enhance their bonding and organizing as a hive with all the grooming that would go on, or would the powdered sugar mess them up at that time?


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## hulstbee (Apr 25, 2014)

Acebird said:


> It is but if you encourage swarming by not discouraging it the hives you have in your yard have less of a chance of survival. IMO It is better to force the swarm with splits and keep the strong ones if you don't want more hives.


I like the thought of keeping the strong ones. That thought along with a previous comment from Michael about combining is giving me some good thoughts about how I can eventually deal with this and end up going into each Winter with some strong hives. Many of the comments here have definitely made me realize that no matter what small number of hives I want to maintain I am going to need extra equipment!


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

hulstbee said:


> Good information. Thank you. So if one were to sugar dust a package would it work to hive them and dust them at the same time, or be better to hive them and wait a few days to dust them? I'm wondering if doing it at hiving would enhance their bonding and organizing as a hive with all the grooming that would go on, or would the powdered sugar mess them up at that time?


I would dust them while they are still confined to the package. Remove the syrup. Remove the queen and put her in your shirt pocket to keep warm. Put wooden lid back on the package. Tip cage sideways and sift powdered sugar onto the bees. Rotate them around for good coverage of the sugar. Give them a few minutes, then go hang the queen cage between the bars and install the workers.

I have used the powdered sugar method a couple of times and I still don't know if I've decided if it helps any.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

hulstbee said:


> Many of the comments here have definitely made me realize that no matter what small number of hives I want to maintain I am going to need extra equipment!


The worst mistake you can make is thinking you can get away with the exact amount of equipment for a fixed number of hives. Colonies grow and expand and collect honey at different times in the season. For instance I have enough equipment for four full size hives with the intention of only having three active hives. It almost works.


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## Cessna180 (Jan 31, 2009)

Simple answer. Nope. They won't survive.


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