# Cathedral hive - Year 2 - Modified



## g1nko (Jun 16, 2016)

I have to say I'm pretty disappointed with BackyardHive. I bought into all the kumbaya "bee-guardian" malarkey and ended up with the varroa mite infestation from hell. Three separate requests for help were completely ignored, but they're always there when you have money to spend. A late August alcohol wash yielded 16 mites/100 bees. Autopsies on drone comb revealed mites in every cell, sometimes up to 4 mites in a single cell. It was nuts. We tried using hop-guard II to save the hive, but the bees absconded and that was that.

I mainly blame my inexperience being a first-year keeper. However, I also blame the design of this hive. There is no way to treat for mites, should you decide to treat for mites, because as far as I can tell, the designers deliberately designed it that way.

I pulled the hive down in to my shop and cut out the bottom and installed a new bottom. I cut two holes, instead of one long one, to preserve the support installed in the middle of the hive base. I routed a 1/2 wide by 1/4 deep groove and tacked #8 hardware cloth into the opening. I put a frame on top of that to secure everything. I attached a new bottom to the supports. That gave me enough space to slide in two drawers; one under the brood and another under the honey. The drawers can accommodate sticky paper, diatomaceous earth, or MiteAway strips. 

Yes, I know, I could have drilled a hole and installed a port for an oxalic acid vaporizer, but this was the route I chose to go. Bees arrive 4/22. I hope this works. At least this year I feel like I can do something to treat instead of just watching helplessly as varroa decimates a colony.


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Wow. Sorry to hear about your experience. I hope things go better for you this year. I was so close to ordering one of the those cathedral hives last year...


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

g1nko, I appreciate you sharing your experience, and feel for your loss. I think treatment free is possible and attainable, but the hive design is not a panacea. I dislike the folks who pretend it is (be they "flow hive" or "cathedral hive" or even "top bar hive" or "lang". It isn't the shape of the box which will save the bees; people who pretend it is have an agenda and are probably selling bee boxes).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

> I have to say I'm pretty disappointed with BackyardHive....


Your hive really does not have much to do with the mites. 
Unsure why would anyone believe into some magic there.
Don't kick the hive however expensive it may be...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

GregV said:


> Unsure why would anyone believe into some magic there.


Because the promoters of many alternative hive designs actually say their hive is "more natural", "designed for the bees not the beekeeper", or a host of other buzz phrases, and claim that as such their hives will help the bees fight off mites and other ailments.

If you look at even old Beesource posts from 10 years ago you will see the same being actively promoted for TBH's. It was a crime to say your TBH had mites. Luckily people have moved on from that. But there's still plenty of bad information out there to lead newby's astray, and think that a particular hive design will "save the bees".


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> Because the promoters of many alternative hive designs actually say their hive is "more natural", ....


Well, these promoters forgot to say that "natural" might also benefits the mites. Haha..
Anyway, while I don't treat anyway and my own hives are darn natural too - mites went ahead and wiped out most of my bees too.
Not a big deal; need to figure out how to manage these bugs better, recover, and move on.

While designs do have certain benefits/drawbacks and I will argue myself over physics and stuff,.... the so-claimed anti-mite properties of wooden hives are truly funny.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well said.


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## Norcalbeez (Apr 3, 2018)

Sorry Newb here so I might be off base but is there any reason an oxalic acid dribble would not work on a cathedral hive?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

like any topbar hive is should be fine, space out all the bars with a little gap let the bees fill in for a few min and then dribble


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

I have long hives that are top bars, and I found since the bottom of the hive (solid) has comb to within bee space...there is no room for an oxalic acid vaporizer below the combs. I ended up cutting 1" holes in the bottom of the hives - yes they had bees in them at the time, so that was more fun that it could have been - and pressing the vaporizer up against the hole.

Couple things I learned about OAV through the school of hard knocks:
1. The battery matters. Try out the vaporizer with battery of choice before trusting it to work on your hives. Don't use car battery THAT YOU NEED FOR YOUR CAR. it's not made for 2 min discharges...
2. OAV can only reach a few combs from its source, if the combs are within bee space of the bottom and you have a hole in the hive as your way of getting OAV into the hive.
3. A screened bottom board is essential design component, for treating a top bar hive with OAV and for checking for mite drop afterwards. 

A dribble takes a lot more time if you have to move the combs apart to get to the bees, unlike in a frame hive where you just take the lid off, or the top box. 

But I love working a top bar - I am just sneaking up on the bees from the side, leaving their "roof" alone. So they are pretty calm and go about their business. I feel like I get a chance to see the hive operating without interference while I'm inspecting. 

I also really like how easily I can see the "size" of the hive change with each inspection - how many bars are covered with bees and how many bars of brood. It's harder to see in a Lang, because the bees can be clustered up against the top of the frames, and not be on the bottom, so you can get fooled by how many are there.


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## Matsuda (Jan 29, 2019)

A interesting horizontal design but lack of users and dismal public support from backyardbeehive make it a rare hive to find in use. Preservationists used to be fond of them but many have moved to skeps or long horizontal. As a wood worker I loved this hive and bees do great in the PNW in them. I find it interesting that the few users of them have seemed to drop out or switch.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Matsuda said:


> A interesting horizontal design but lack of users and dismal public support from backyardbeehive make it a rare hive to find in use. Preservationists used to be fond of them but many have moved to skeps or long horizontal. As a wood worker I loved this hive and bees do great in the PNW in them. I find it interesting that the few users of them have seemed to drop out or switch.


If I can not build a hive from free dumpster scraps - I don't need such hive.
Over-engineered and expensive.
Next...


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Personally, I'm not a fan of Top Bar Hives - but - I fully accept that their big strengths lie in simplicity and ease of construction. With this so-called 'Cathedral Hive' (never heard of it before now, and had to look it up), even these qualities are lost. So - can't see what the attraction is ...
LJ


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## Randori (Nov 3, 2019)

g1nko said:


> I bought into all the kumbaya "bee-guardian" malarkey and ended up with the varroa mite infestation from hell.
> 
> 
> Caveat Emptor
> ...


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## zzzforce (May 25, 2019)

g1nko said:


> I have to say I'm pretty disappointed with BackyardHive. I bought into all the kumbaya "bee-guardian" malarkey and ended up with the varroa mite infestation from hell. Three separate requests for help were completely ignored, but they're always there when you have money to spend. A late August alcohol wash yielded 16 mites/100 bees. Autopsies on drone comb revealed mites in every cell, sometimes up to 4 mites in a single cell. It was nuts. We tried using hop-guard II to save the hive, but the bees absconded and that was that.
> 
> I mainly blame my inexperience being a first-year keeper. However, I also blame the design of this hive. There is no way to treat for mites, should you decide to treat for mites, because as far as I can tell, the designers deliberately designed it that way.
> 
> ...


I bought a cathedral hive like yours last year. As a Newbie, I was pleased with the design of the hive in the way that they built comb - but also struggled with the varroa issue and how to manage in a top bar hive in which there is not enough space beneath the comb to do OAV even if I had wanted to, and how to adapt other methods and if/when to use them in my climate ... and I did lose my colony. You posted this in April 2018. How did your hive do last year? You are obviously a talented wood worker to have done such extensive and well thought out modifications. (I am definitely not - so to undertake this would require me to hire someone- $$$ if I could even find someone to do it during this Covid thing....). I'm trying to figure out if it would really be worth it. I have ordered a locally raised package that will arrive in May. How did the modifications you made change what you did throughout last year? Do you think the modifications are necessary to be successful or with your experience now could you recommend other methods that would work?


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

ive never seen this gadget but is there enough space between the frames to put apivar strips in?
Can one not drill a tiny hole in the bottom of the hive to fit an OAV provap into?
can you put formic pro strips along the tops of the frames?


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## Doug R (Jul 18, 2001)

I kept bees for many years in Langstroth hives, then gave it up when my daughter was born. She's now 11 and her brother is 8. I got back into it last year, but didn't want to go the langstroth route - too much equipment, space, and 'stuff' needed. I was going to make a TBH, but found the Cathedral hive on the internet. I couldn't believe what they were getting for them! They sell the plans for $25, so I made my own.

I like them for a few reasons:
1. They effectively double the honey my hive can overwinter with. This is my top reason. I have extreme and extremely long winters in the mountains near Park City, UT.
2. The shape of the top bars (three sided) are less likely to break the comb off because of careless me.
3. This may be silly, but I like the holes in the top bars that allow movement through the top of the hive where the heat is in the winter.

I don't think the design has anything to do with mites. I treated twice last year with Mite Away. It's tricky with this design, but here's what I did. Clear away the propolis from the gap in the one side of each top bar and lay the Mite Away on top and seal top cover. It was effective.

BTW, the Backyardhive people are anti-treatments of any kind. They'd rather your hive died than have you treat for mites. I'd love to get to the point where I don't need treatments, but I'm not there yet.


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## zzzforce (May 25, 2019)

aran said:


> ive never seen this gadget but is there enough space between the frames to put apivar strips in?
> Can one not drill a tiny hole in the bottom of the hive to fit an OAV provap into?
> can you put formic pro strips along the tops of the frames?


1. I don't know anything about the size of apivar strips but you cannot not leave spaces between the frames. It would allow bees to get above the bars and into the ventilated roof. There is no "top cover". 
2. You could drill holes in the bottom but "Trishbookworm" (who did so) says in a post above that "OAV can only reach a few combs from its source, if the combs are within bee space of the bottom and you have a hole in the hive as your way of getting OAV into the hive" .... and she also says a screened bottom board is essential, which I do not have. That would require the kind of extensive modifications G1nko posted.
3. Formic Pro strips could be put along the tops of the bars if I cleaned the propolis off one side of the gap in the top bar (the gap is meant for ventilation, is too small for bees to move through but they sometimes close it up. 
(I read one post that said he puts 2 Formic Pro strips on the bottom of the hive. I don't think I have enough room beneath fully drawn comb to do that...)


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## zzzforce (May 25, 2019)

Doug R said:


> I kept bees for many years in Langstroth hives, then gave it up when my daughter was born. She's now 11 and her brother is 8. I got back into it last year, but didn't want to go the langstroth route - too much equipment, space, and 'stuff' needed. I was going to make a TBH, but found the Cathedral hive on the internet. I couldn't believe what they were getting for them! They sell the plans for $25, so I made my own.
> 
> I like them for a few reasons:
> 1. They effectively double the honey my hive can overwinter with. This is my top reason. I have extreme and extremely long winters in the mountains near Park City, UT.
> ...


Thank you for the advice. I actually loved the hive design. I would like to be "no treat" too but was so discouraged after my first unsuccessful year.... I am getting a package of local bees in May from overwintered stock with a locally raised and mated queen. ... and am considering trying drone brood exam and culling for management. But I don't want to be ignorant of all the alternatives and how to adapt them to this style hive and lose them all again if counts get high....


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Apivar strips are thin and have a hole punched in the top of them. You should be able to separate the top bars far enough to insert a strip supported by a nail stuck through the hole. If treating with OAV, use a band heater style that blasts the vapor into the hive. You will get complete coverage pretty much anywhere you place the hole. Trish was using a wand style vaporizer that does not blow the OA in. Never used Formic Pro so no advice on that front.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> but also struggled with the varroa issue and how to manage in a top bar hive in which there is not enough space beneath the comb to do OAV even if I had wanted to


See post #9, been doing it sense 2016 haven't lost a topbar to mites (EFB is a diffrent storyinch

yes can slide a OAV wand in threw the front.. if you have to trim some comb then trim some comb, or side the bars back and place a few blanks in the front
yes you can put apivar strips in.. may have to scrape some proplius after, small price to pay


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## zzzforce (May 25, 2019)

Thanks for all the good advice!


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