# do you use small cell foundation in the honey supers?



## suprstakr (Feb 10, 2006)

No I just use starter strips


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You can, just so all your comb is closer to the same size. I'm fond of foundationless or starter strips myself. The 4.9mm is pretty expensive.


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## Ellen (Dec 25, 2006)

Is there an IPM reason for using 4.9mm in the supers? If not, I'm tempted to use Michael's popsicle stick in a grooved top bar idea.

Another question...
I know Michael advocates for using lighter weight equipment and standardizing on one size. I'm torn between ordering 8-frame mediums for everything or using deep hive bodies and then shallow supers. I will only have four hives, so it isn't that big a deal to have everything standardized. The 8-frame medium and the 10-frame shallow supers weigh about the same, but I assume it's easier to get accessories for the 10-frame shallows.

I can't get honey super cell frames for the medium hives, so I'm leaning toward the deep/shallow mix. Am I missing something in this analysis?

Thanks so much for all your help. This board is a great resource, as are those of you who are responding.

Ellen


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Ellen

I really like the idea of standardizing on one frame size

>I can't get honey super cell frames for the medium hives, 

if you know someone who's handy in a woodworking shop you can do this

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/hsc/

there's also Permacomb

http://www.beesource.com/bee-l/bulletinboard/seets/permacomb.htm

or just using small cell foundation or natural cell

I know there are an overwhelming number of choices but you can use any size box you want and still get the results you're after

Dave


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## Ellen (Dec 25, 2006)

Thanks again for your help. I ordered 20 8-frame medium supers for my hives. I will (attempt to) cut the HSC comb in half to make medium frames for my hives, then use the grooved top bar with popsicle stick for everything else.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Ellen


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Ellen,

this thread

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000972

talks about cutting down the HSC

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I will only have four hives, so it isn't that big a deal to have everything standardized.

The less hives you have the more it pays off to standardize. If I have a lot of hives and I want to put some stores in the brood nest of a light hive, odds are I have a deadout somewhere I can take them from. If I have only four hives, odds are I won't.

> The 8-frame medium and the 10-frame shallow supers weigh about the same

In weight, yes, but the eight frame medium is much less awkward than the ten frame shallow.

> but I assume it's easier to get accessories for the 10-frame shallows.

Brushy Mt. Bee Farm has virtually any accessory you could want for an eight frame hive.

>I can't get honey super cell frames for the medium hives

But you could cut them down or wax coat PermaComb or just use wax foundation.

> so I'm leaning toward the deep/shallow mix. Am I missing something in this analysis?

Yes. First, the deeps will be full of honey some day. When they are they will weigh 90 pounds. It's not the weight of the 10 frame shallow supers that will be the problem.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#lighterboxes

Second, I don't know how to get across how helpful it is to have all one size frame.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#uniformframesize


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

>Second, I don't know how to get across how helpful it is to have all one size frame.

Hey Michael,

I know how
someday you might want to move some stuff around
sure would be nice if it would "fit" wouldn't it









Dave


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## Ellen (Dec 25, 2006)

Well, Michael and Dave, you convinced me. I really like the fact that I will have boxes that I can make hive bodies if I find a swarm or want to split a hive.
Thanks!
Ellen


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## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

What to do in extracting supers? Natural cell built from a starter strip will not be wired, so the odds are, it will not survive the extractor, right?

I think a really good question is, will small cell bees draw out 5.4 mm comb in honey supers, and not use it as brood area? Is there a danger of mixing small cell 4.9, and standard 5.4?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

1)with starter strips, why not just wire the frames first? the bees will build the wires right into the comb

2)yes, if left to their own they will build bigger cells in the honey storage area, it would be nice if they'd draw it all out 4.9 and you can try to force this with SC foundation, it depends on how much you want to fight nature

in the end you just want to end up with 4.9 in the broodnest
the bees would do it there self if we'd leave them alone but we keep stealing their food and moving stuff around, it's up to us to fix it back correctly

if you use foundation in the supers I think it makes sense to use a larger cell size. It's what they want and it's cheaper. But then it's up to you to keep track of what's what (hint: write notes on the topbars)

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What to do in extracting supers? Natural cell built from a starter strip will not be wired, so the odds are, it will not survive the extractor, right?

I extract them all the time. You have to make sure they are attached a little bit on four sides and that the wax isn't brand new and has aged a bit. But if you're gentle they extract fine.

>I think a really good question is, will small cell bees draw out 5.4 mm comb in honey supers

No, but they will draw it bigger than 4.9mm.

> and not use it as brood area?

You never know.

> Is there a danger of mixing small cell 4.9, and standard 5.4?

Only that the queen will move into it and you'll unregress them.


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

I thought the key was to keep the SC in brood area and let the larger cell be in storage/super area- i.e. to prevent brood/queeen from moving up.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

7/11 will keep her from moving up most of the time. I wouldn't count on 5.4mm keeping her down, although the queens seem to prefer more natural sized cells to the larger ones, she will lay where she finds room if she runs out.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

....Small cell in the supers....:

By having small cell in the supers you can use them for brood comb should you want to.

Why should I want to?
1. For moving to lighter equipment; I'm moving to all mediums, so it is prudent that the mediums had SC in them already.
2. Ease at checkerboarding; one of the requirements of checkerboarding is that the bees are allowed to use the "supers" for brood-rearing during the spring build up.
3. If I need to use the supers for other reasons (ie mating nucs).

Waya


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## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

what is 7/11?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Hi Ron

how are your bees?
7/11 is foundation kinda halfway between large cell and drone cell
the queen is supposed to not like it because it's a weird size
I think it only comes from Walter Kelley's

Dave


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Honey Super Cell makes a larger cell with
a fake egg embossed in the bottom to limit
the queens laying. Not sure if it works. I
got a sample of them in the mail. Heavy
duty frames to be sure.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Sundance said:


> Honey Super Cell makes a larger cell with
> a fake egg embossed in the bottom to limit
> the queens laying. Not sure if it works. I
> got a sample of them in the mail. Heavy
> duty frames to be sure.


Last season I used 20 of these, all black, in medium size. The bees were reluctant to start using them, but once they did, they were well filled with light colored mesquite honey and pretty white wax. None were used for brood, not a single cell, as far as I could tell. I will be trying them out again soon. Our mesquite trees are covered with buds, so I expect the flow will start in another week or two. The end bars are wider than 1-3/8" so only 9 of them will fit in a 10 frame super.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

im going to use the 6 5/8 frames that Honey super cell sells i got a sample of it last year it looks like a good thing, no excluders needed and very heavy duty. so im getting a pile of those in a week or two.


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## Ryan1098 (Apr 11, 2007)

Hi,

Going to be using HSC in the brood area, what should I do in the honey supers? No extracter so going to have to crush and strain.

Thanks,

Ryan


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

if you're going to crush and strain use foundationless
you don't even care if they draw if nicely

Dave


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## Limey (Feb 10, 2007)

Despite the cost (for now) I've decided to use 4.9 in the supers.. basically because I want to be able to move anything, anywhere, anytime... between hives, between boxes, between nucs etc etc..


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Limey,

the problem is that often in the honey supers they don't want small cell and they'll rework your foundation into what they want
I'm not discouraging you, just mentioning you should pay attention and not assume it will be drawn out SC
as you say it really doesn't cost much more

Dave


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## Limey (Feb 10, 2007)

Thanks Dave, I'll make sure I keep an eye on the comb they draw and adjust accordingly.. I do have some drone cell foundation that I am thinking of experimenting with in one super too..


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