# 2 Year and treatment free



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I have to assume - as you are in Ohio - that you did not literally mean "smoking the hives once a week ..." for a full 12 months per year. Do you mean only during the months when bees are actively flying?


Black walnut trees do contain _juglone_, which can be toxic to some other plants and insects. So far, I have not seen controlled studies that show that _juglone _is demonstrably effective against varroa, though. 

More on yew and walnut _extracts _in varroa control here:
http://yadda.icm.edu.pl/yadda/eleme...07f-4ba5-a8de-aef2407504a3/c/Garbaczewska.pdf

The study linked above used walnut _extract _rather than walnut _smoke_.

.


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## Stansuch99 (Feb 1, 2014)

Yes only during the warmer weather. Its the only thing i can think of that made the difference. Even the person i bought them from has lost a good bit of his hives. Every hives appears to even have a full 10 deep frames of honey left they are only now starting on. I did not take any from them to make sure they had enough plus there was a good crop off each hive in the spring.


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

Stan 
Keep us posted this season. I am curious to see what this summer brings.


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## Stansuch99 (Feb 1, 2014)

This spring i am planning on doing the powder sugar mite test i will post what i get from each hive. I am planning on getting 20 more hives this year. Sense my first year i love doing it but never believed in chemicals in my garden so i am determined to not use any in my bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Treatment free 2 years? Doesn't seem so.


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## Stansuch99 (Feb 1, 2014)

I feel i must be doing something right if in my second year i have not lost any hives during the worst winter i have seen and wanted to share what i think it is with everyone. Anything is possible if you work at it hard enough and want to succeeded.


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## CtyAcres (Apr 8, 2012)

Stan99, I've heard of smoking with walnut shavings kills varroa, but personally haven't used it. Been TF for 4yrs now on
large cell fd and its worked for me too, so far..... Good luck, and keep doing what you've been doing.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

All well and good, but if you are treating your hives why do you claim to be treatment free? Just doesn't make sense to me, that's all.

By the way, tanic acid is a chemical. Black walnut hulls have been used to dye wool for ages.


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## Stansuch99 (Feb 1, 2014)

I am not sure i could consider using black walnut shavings in my smokers and giving them a good smoking before i go to the next one as treatment. Its not much more then anyone would do when they normally work with them.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What do you attribute your lack of loss to?


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## Stansuch99 (Feb 1, 2014)

A good survivor stock from the area i live in and keeping the mites in check by smoking them. Now instead of going around about this all night with someone who obviously does not like seeing someone do so well i will say i do not treat using any chemicals that are bought from a company that are no good for the bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm glad to see that you admit to yourself that you treat for mites using something other than conventional materials. If you want to call your treatment treatment free then that's your perogative. No arguments, except I am glad that you are having some success. Just don't blow smoke


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## Stansuch99 (Feb 1, 2014)

As i said earlier i do not consider black walnut shaving to be treating them. I only said that because i am not going around all night with someone who has a different point of view on treatment then i do or for that matter most of the beekeeping community i have met. Now strut off like a rooster and we will both say you won because arguing with you about this is nothing but a waste of my time.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Alright Stan.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Stansuch99 said:


> As i said earlier i do not consider black walnut shaving to be treating them.


Visit the "Treatment Free Beekeeping" forum and run this by them. They may have a different opinion.


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## Stansuch99 (Feb 1, 2014)

Everyone has a opinion and mine is this is no more a treatment then someone who uses small cells to control the mites. This is something i learned from a man who is probably more intelligent then 99% of the people on this forum including myself and he has very low losses and has success with his hives and his opinion is hes treatment free. Now someone such as him i am inclined to listen to there opinion.


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## CtyAcres (Apr 8, 2012)

Stan99, Under TF Forum Rules by Solomon Parker, the use of a smoker is not considered a treatment. Now, what you
put in it, might be debated for hrs, days, weeks, maybe mos..........


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## Stansuch99 (Feb 1, 2014)

I noticed but to each is there own. If nothing else if someone wants to consider it a treatment its a sustainable one that seems to have no ill effect on the bees like the commercial products and i can say i have no fear of contaminating anything i eat.


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## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

Stan, have you checked your mite loads? I'm just curious as to what the numbers look like.


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## Stansuch99 (Feb 1, 2014)

Not as of yet but this year i plan on doing it as soon as it warm again. I plan on doing the powdered sugar method i cant see killing a bunch of bees with the other methods i have seen.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Would you mind describing what you are calling black walnut "shavings'? Is it ground or shaved wood, or husks from nuts? My BW aren't big enough to bear, yet, so no husks. But I would be willing to do a little pruning...!

And I'm really curious about your mite levels. My bees are all mysterious mutts from swarms (and still alive despite the awful winter and having a very inexperienced beekeeper messin' with them.) I can't say if they are survivor local bees, or just swarmees from another apiary. Naturally I'm hoping they're survivors. So that's why I'm curious about your mite levels, to try to tease out whether it's your bees or the BW smoke.

Thanks

Enj.


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## Stansuch99 (Feb 1, 2014)

The black walnut shavings are the wood from a planer. Some small branches i would say should have them same effect in the smoker or stop by a place that builds furniture and ask about getting a bag they will probably be more then glad to get rid of them. Mine are local survivors as far as i know. As soon as springs here and they build up a little bit i will let everyone know about the mite levels. 

Mike is the person who told me about this and hes been doing it to his hives for years and says it helps his a lot and i can not argue with it at all. He also has some impressive bees that i am sure help with the problem more then anything but every little bit counts in my eyes.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Stan, I don't think Mark was trying to snipe at you. He's been nothing but kind and helpful to me, even though he may think my ideas are foolish and naive.

I think he was just trying to make the point that if you put anything into the hive to kill mites, that's a treatment by definition. I'm a treatment free beekeeper myself, though only a beginner, but I guess I take a somewhat flexible view of the subject. For example, last year I bought some predatory mites (they were reputed to prey on varroa) and put them in my hives. Now at the time, I told myself that I was not treating, I was just attempting to restore the ecology of the hive, since the predatory mites are native to North America. But I was kidding myself. Even though that was an attempt at a biological control and one that would not injure the bees, it was still a treatment.

All that said, most of us smoke our hives, even if we don't treat. Still, if there's something in the walnut smoke that kills mites, you would sooner or later run into the same problem that those who treat with harsher chemicals run into. If you don't kill every mite, eventually the survivors will become resistant to whatever has been killing them.


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## Stansuch99 (Feb 1, 2014)

I felt his blowing smoke comment was a bit more then trying to make a point and was ending it there before it turned into more. 

Next time i am up at mikes will be in June. I will ask him how long he has been doing this but i do know it has been at least a few years. I know that is not long enough for them to really build up a resistance but so far it works great for him. At this point i am just glad to not have the problems and made it threw this winter and hopefully 'fingers crossed' the last of the single digits here. This year i will hopefully be putting it to the test more as i should be up to 30 hives.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Stansuch99 said:


> I feel i must be doing something right if in my second year i have not lost any hives during the worst winter i have seen.


Stan -

Glad your bees are still alive, but there is still plenty of time left to this winter where you're not out of the woods yet. I believe we've had a harsher winter than you, I still have live bees, but I won't say they've survived this winter for another month at least.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rhaldridge said:


> Stan, I don't think Mark was trying to snipe at you. He's been nothing but kind and helpful to me, even though he may think my ideas are foolish and naive.


Why do people assume that they know what I think or believe just because I ask leading or challenging questions?

It is nothing to me if someone uses walnut wood shavings in their smoker to have some beneficial effect on mite levels in their hives, it just seems foolish for someone that does what looks like a treatment to claim treatment free status. That's all. 

It's not that I think using walnut shavings is foolish. It's believing that doing so is not treating. It may work. I don't know. Further study and information is needed.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Stansuch 99, cheers on having them turn the corner into Spring, I think it is a big celebration. Sometimes you have to shake the negative off, if you know what I mean :lookout: Many told me that all of my bees would be dead in their third year :scratch:, due to the fact that I don't do mite counts, or treatments (according to my definition). I am intrigued by this idea of black walnut shavings smoke and look forward to hearing more about it. If it works for you and that is what you assess their survival to, keep on keeping on


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

It means nothing to me w/o hives not being smoked with black walnut shavings, I think the point on smoking them is moot.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Why do people assume that they know what I think or believe just because I ask leading or challenging questions?


Hey now... I said you *may* think my ideas are "foolish and naive" and I made that surmise only because it's a fairly universal opinion among beekeepers who know what they're doing.  I don't mind.

Yes, I would say that Stan is treating too. No opinion on whether it works or not, but the trouble with stuff that kills mites is that it may also affect other bugs. Like bees. As JRG said, I'd need to see a large scale trial of "smoked with walnut" vs. unsmoked to even begin to form an opinion.

I seem to recall that some SW beekeepers swear by creosote bush trimmings for their smokers.


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

Hey Stan,
Not trying to be a Debbie-downer but I started out as Treatment-Free as well and my experience was that they tend do well for 2 years but crash the 3rd.
I've seen others on here report the same; good for two, crash the third due to mites.

I hope you fair better than I did.
It was a tough lesson to learn, I just didn't want to listen.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Treatment free?!? I'm kinda with Mark on this one. Down on the treatment-free forum there is a post that defines treatments thus:



> *Treatment*: A substance introduced by the beekeeper into the hive with the intent of killing, repelling, or inhibiting a pest or disease afflicting the bees.


Smoking with black walnut shells sure sounds like a treatment according to that definition.

Hey, I LIKE natural treatments. I sugar dust all the time. But I don't call myself a treatment-free beekeeper.

JMO

Rusty


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Be real easy to test, throw a sticky board under your hives. Smoke half with walnut shavings the other half with something else and compare what happens. Reverse it the next week if you want to double check.

Don


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I don't have any issues with being treatment free, but rather the notion of something working that's really unproven or without comparison. Some areas just have less mite pressure as well. I always see people mentioning that 3rd year crash, well come over in these parts and watch hives fail in one season, even fresh nucs/colonies pulled that year. Even with multiple brood breaks I see colonies succumb to mites come October.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have always assumed anytime you get something (anything) on the bees, even smelly smoke, they will groom more and that will get rid of more mites. Probably not enough more to matter... but more. I would bet that banging on the side of the hives would get rid of more as agitated bees seem to groom more as well... but it may be that walnut (which is very poisonous to many insects and even mammals) could have an effect. But then the problem with poisons is that when you try to poison a bug on a bug how are you affecting the bigger bug?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rhaldridge said:


> Hey now... I said you *may* think my ideas are "foolish and naive" and I made that surmise only because it's a fairly universal opinion among beekeepers who know what they're doing. I don't mind.


I wasn't referring to you.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Stansuch99 said:


> .... and i can say i have no fear of contaminating anything i eat.


Have you had the hive contents tested after smoking to determine if there might be any residues from the Walnut Smoke found on the open cells of honey or nectar? 

I am not trying to discourage you from using this method if it's working for you. But you may want to consider running a test sometime in the future for your own peace of mind. You sound like a health conscious person, and I assume this would be something you want to be certain about.


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## larrybeach (May 25, 2013)

Sounds like you may have found something that works for you, I wish you continued good luck. When you smoke do you just use a little, like you would normally on a inspection? Or maybe a little more than usual? Thanks.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

JRG13 said:


> I don't have any issues with being treatment free, but rather the notion of something working that's really unproven or without comparison. Some areas just have less mite pressure as well. I always see people mentioning that 3rd year crash, well come over in these parts and watch hives fail in one season, even fresh nucs/colonies pulled that year. Even with multiple brood breaks I see colonies succumb to mites come October.


And why do you think that is (hives in your area succumbing to mites their first year)? More mite pressure, or?


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## Stansuch99 (Feb 1, 2014)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Have you had the hive contents tested after smoking to determine if there might be any residues from the Walnut Smoke found on the open cells of honey or nectar?


Not yet but i do plan on doing it if nothing else to find out what is going into my hives from around the area. I would like to do it this year or the next i am thinking next year would be the best. Is there any places that specialize in testing wax, honey and bees from hives?



larrybeach said:


> Sounds like you may have found something that works for you, I wish you continued good luck. When you smoke do you just use a little, like you would normally on a inspection? Or maybe a little more than usual? Thanks.


I do the normal at first and give them a puff of smoke and as needed during working with them. When i close them up i put the smoker in the inspection hole and keep going until the smokes coming out of the entrance and put the lid back on. I normally inspect once a week and do it every time.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> And why do you think that is (hives in your area succumbing to mites their first year)? More mite pressure, or?


Yes, I'd be interested in your opinion as well. There does seem to be greater difficulty with TF beekeeping in California, which seems to lead some California beekeepers to doubt that it's possible anywhere.


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## Stansuch99 (Feb 1, 2014)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> Stansuch 99, cheers on having them turn the corner into Spring, I think it is a big celebration. Sometimes you have to shake the negative off, if you know what I mean :lookout: Many told me that all of my bees would be dead in their third year :scratch:, due to the fact that I don't do mite counts, or treatments (according to my definition). I am intrigued by this idea of black walnut shavings smoke and look forward to hearing more about it. If it works for you and that is what you assess their survival to, keep on keeping on


Thanks for the positive words i appreciate it  I have heard a lot of people saying they will all be dead in the first year without treatment and so far they are doing great a month away from spring. I cant wait for this spring i have big plans so hopefully its a good one.


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## Stansuch99 (Feb 1, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> I have always assumed anytime you get something (anything) on the bees, even smelly smoke, they will groom more and that will get rid of more mites. Probably not enough more to matter... but more. I would bet that banging on the side of the hives would get rid of more as agitated bees seem to groom more as well... but it may be that walnut (which is very poisonous to many insects and even mammals) could have an effect. But then the problem with poisons is that when you try to poison a bug on a bug how are you affecting the bigger bug?



So far no ill effects from it for either me or Mike. If it is hurting the bees at all i can not see it being even close to the damage the chemicals used commercially to kill them. 

Thank you for the website i have learned a lot from it and plan to try making some queens the way you describe on your site this year. Hopefully you have queens for sale next year i would like to get a few to improve mines diversity. I am going to get your book sometime this year if it has half of what your website does i think it will be more then worth the buy.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Fields,

I feel it's more of a combination of things. We don't get huge flows of pollen or nectar. Spring provides good build up but not a lot of excess. Summer can yield a box of honey if there's a good nectar crop planted nearby, such as sunflowers. End of July brings our fall dearth which can last til next spring depending on when or if it rains before January. Of course I'm just speaking of my location, some areas are better off of course. I also think the influx of bees for almonds doesn't help our cause of local adaptation to disease haplotypes/mites, virtual cess pool of pathogens is created here and it just seems it takes a lot less of a mite load to crash a hive.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

there's another guy who treats with organic acids and grease patties but he said the same thing. he is treatment free cos far as he is concerned what he puts in the hive is not a treatment, it's a happy meal for the bees.

Yes, he actually said that, LOL. 

I remember the debate when the forum rules were being set up. There were some disappointed people who considered themselves treatment free beekeepers. but it turned out that to them you were treatment free if you used anything to treat, except the chemicals they used. There was always an argument why those particular treatments should not be called treatments.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> there's another guy who treats with organic acids and grease patties but he said the same thing. he is treatment free cos far as he is concerned what he puts in the hive is not a treatment, it's a happy meal for the bees.
> 
> Yes, he actually said that, LOL.
> 
> I remember the debate when the forum rules were being set up. There were some disappointed people who considered themselves treatment free beekeepers. but it turned out that to them you were treatment free if you used anything to treat, except the chemicals they used. There was always an argument why those particular treatments should not be called treatments.


.....but in the end, it's really all just semantics isn't it. Do you want to be included in the treatment free club as defined by the Beesource forum. Nothing more nothing less. There are no benefits I am aware of to being in the club save bragging rights and, unlike what many choose to believe, it need have NOTHING to do with honey purity.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Stansuch99 said:


> When i close them up i put the smoker in the inspection hole ...


Please describe the inspection hole. I don't understand what that is.

In reply to Oldtimer and Jim Lyons: Why do we call ourselves by some descriptor or say anything about how we do something other than to be included in some sort of group, to align ourselves w/ those we admire or emulate?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am going to get your book sometime this year if it has half of what your website does i think it will be more then worth the buy. 

It is pretty much the same material. Nothing new in the book.

>it's really all just semantics isn't it.

Actually I think it's English and logic. How can you say, "I'm treatment free because I only treat with _____"? Did you not just contridict yourself? But yes, the Beesource definition was only intended to define the topic and scope of the forum, not to make a definition the rest of the world has to abide by.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

Logic and intent.

If I requeen, I'm treatment free.
If I pour granular sugar on top of the brood on newspaper with the intent to feed, I'm treatment free.
If that granular sugar is from the bottom of a bag, somewhat fine and some falls through the hive as the bees eat the paper, I'm still still treatment free.
If I'm 3 weeks out on a replacement for a failing queen, powder sugar dust until I can install new genetics, I'm not.
If instead I pinch the failing queen, freeze drone brood, combine with a strong hive and then split with the new queen 3 weeks later, I'm treatment free.

Hmmm, certainly is easier with a bunch of hives.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I think mainly people forget how locational beekeeping can be and think what works for them will work for everyone else, 10 hives or 10,000. Sadly, it's not the case at all and many a disagreement and bad feelings ensue.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I don't understand the idea that the only reason to be treatment free is so you can belong to the TF club on Beesource. What serious person would care about that? My decision to be treatment free hinged on two ideas.

The first idea is that anything you put into a colony to kill mites is going to have some negative effects on the bees and the hive micro-ecology. You can argue about how much effect it has, but I don't believe any intelligent person would deny this. Killing little bugs on big bugs with bug poison is going to have some negative effects on the big bugs. 'Cause they're bugs.

The second idea is that some beekeepers *have* succeeded in keeping bees without using poisons. If they can do it, why can't I?

It may turn out that I can't, in which case I'll have to change my approach or quit keeping bees. Not the end of the world, in either case. 'Cause, you know, they're just bugs.

My personal belief is that since losses have been pretty high even among treated hives, there's something not quite right about the way most bees are being kept. I want to see if I can do better. Because even though they're just bugs, I've always believed that if you're going to do something, you should do the best job you can.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ray I can't say I disagree with much of what you are saying. Just trying to say I think it's a bit silly to argue about the nuances of what does or what dosent constitute being treatment free as is defined here on Beesource. Another forum probably has another definition. I only care about the results that my decisions make in my hives not what others opinion of what I do may be. I won't further reiterate my previous points but in regards to winter losses of treated vs. tf hives I have no doubt there will be high losses this winter in both groups. Anyone care, though, to comment on what percentage of replacement bees will come from tf hives this spring? That might give a bit different picture.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I don't know why anyone would want to be in the TF club here. All that does is make you a target.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

At this point you do not know if it kills mites or if your bees would be doing fine anyway. Best way to know would be a sticky board test. Sticky board in the hives for 24 hours. Remove and put new sticky boards & treat the bees with your smoke however you do that, then leave the sticky boards 24 hours, remove, count, and compare. To really do it right you also need to smoke some with a sticky board with non walnut smoke, cos any smoke will dislodge a few mites onto a sticky board you need to see if the walnut smoke is significantly more effective.

Next assumption is that you can eat the honey no worries. With walnut shavings containing toxins and the hives being treated heavily this way weekly, which is a lot more often than most other treatments are done, it's a certainty some of that stuff will get into the honey. Might not kill you outright, could be carcinogenic, who knows? You won't know till you've done some research and tests.

Would I eat your honey? A spoonful or two probably. By the jar? Probably not till more is known.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

You put it nicely Michael..."But yes, the Beesource definition was only intended to define the topic and scope of the forum, not to make a definition the rest of the world has to abide by."

Husks or hulls, which is being used? I think the carcinogens are in the husks, could be wrong of course.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

jim lyon said:


> Anyone care, though, to comment on what percentage of replacement bees will come from tf hives this spring? That might give a bit different picture.


That's an interesting question. The only bigtime supplier of TF bees I know about is Beeweaver, and their packages are almost completely sold out. But I bet they're a tiny fraction of the market. It's very hard to find completely untreated bees in commercial quantities, I think. A few suppliers I'm aware of claim TF bees, but treat with essential oils, etc.

I'm getting more Beeweaver queens this year. My strongest hive right now is headed by a BeeWeaver queen. I split it yesterday; it had ten frames of brood already.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

My replacements come from my bees, except for the few I will catch this season. Already caught one swarm. But I don't claim true TF either - just nothing commercial or purchased chemicals. You could get really stupid and even call feeding a treatment, along with every other manipulation.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm not sure what all the toxins in walnut are, but when a stable I know of got sawdust delivered for bedding and all their horses went lame, they quickly tracked it down to black walnut sawdust.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Nothing commercial or purchased is interesting Paul, what do you use?


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Well, I suppose some ARE chemical in the sense that food is chemical - mostly a little vinegar in the Winter food and the local creosote bush or Juniper as smoker fuel. I used to put a little spearmint in the syrup, but not so much now since it can incite robbing when they learn the smell. I doubt any of it really has much affect. Mostly "folk" type treatments you could say. I don't buy anything produced for treatments not because I am avoiding treatments for enviro reasons, but because I want the ability to maintain bee colonies with no outside influences other than stuff I can produce on my own, if need be. All of my "treatments" can be produced in the home or picked up off the ground, or they are manipulations of some type. Not sure how much benefit a commercial guy would get from what I do.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK thanks. Always interested in freebies LOL.

Vinegar in the feed, doubt that would affect mites at all, it's really just making the PH more tolerable for the bees plus helping with inversion. Creosote bush, don't think we have here, juniper we do but to be honest doubt it would be much benefit.

Spearmint is debatable but in any case it has to be paid for so if paying I'd rather pay for something reputed to be more effective.

Anyhow thanks for the full reply, just I'm always on the lookout for new ideas especially free ones LOL.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Yeah, the vinegar is for PH. I try to make it like honey - mostly just a guess. You can buy spearmint or distill it yourself if your are really serious. Same with vinegar. The spearmint mostly just floats on the syrup, so again, is debateble. The creosote bush is an old Mexican folk remedy, and said to kill parasites and mites. I probably don't do it enough to really be able to tell. You are supposed to smoke the heck out of them over the course of a few weeks, but all I do is mix it with my smoker fuel and not worry about it. Not sure why mine live and other beek's die? Have no answer other than their 1/2 wild genetics for the most part. I should know soon enough, my bees are part of a study being conducted in my region. On one hand I want to know, and on the other I don't really want to know. I have lost colonies of purely domestic bees to mites where my others cannot be killed it would seem. Side by side you can't tell much difference in the two.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Paul McCarty said:


> I should know soon enough, my bees are part of a study being conducted in my region.


What are they studying...or would they rather you not say? How long before results?


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Not sure really, but has to do with feral survivors, mites, etc. Do not know many specifics, just providing samples to them.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I know that there is considerable interest in the possibility of less virulent mites following Tom Seeley's observations.


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## hideawayranch (Mar 5, 2013)

Thank you for sharing your success. It is very encouraging to know that it happens, especially when there are so many people who are loosing hives.


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## JasonERD (Feb 7, 2013)

scorpionmain said:


> Hey Stan,
> Not trying to be a Debbie-downer but I started out as Treatment-Free as well and my experience was that they tend do well for 2 years but crash the 3rd.
> I've seen others on here report the same; good for two, crash the third due to mites.


Sorry for digging up an older thread. As a new beekeeper that is wrapping up year number 2, and going to be entering year 3 in the spring... What is different from year number 2 and year number 3? I am not completely treatment free, but I would still like to know what to look out for.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

2 years eh? I am at year 5 and no issues so far.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

JasonERD said:


> Sorry for digging up an older thread. As a new beekeeper that is wrapping up year number 2, and going to be entering year 3 in the spring... What is different from year number 2 and year number 3? I am not completely treatment free, but I would still like to know what to look out for.


If you have just ordinary bees, no VSH, BeeWeaver or ?, you are likely to witness crash. It is just the way mites multiply, in 3 years they have become so numerous, and you won´t see them if you are not familiar with them, that the bees die. 
Make a sugar roll test. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAQShZk1cic

If you have resistant bees and you are prepared to have losses, no worries.

People in this forum have strange ideas about how things like environment, sugar feeding and cell size has major influence in varroa resistance. I don´t believe in that at all. It is mostly about genetics suited to your area.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

In total agreement about local genetics. I think the importation of strange bees into areas they are not from is a prime part of the problem - possibly because the bees can never adapt due to constant importation of new stock.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I'd like to hear how the OP's hives are doing now with fall coming.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Juhani Lunden said:


> People in this forum have strange ideas about how things like environment, sugar feeding and cell size has major influence in varroa resistance. I don´t believe in that at all. It is mostly about genetics suited to your area.


if it is about bees suited to your area, that means bees suited to the local environment. So it *is* about environment.

Sugar feeding? When I had treatment free hives I fed some sugar to the first one to get them started when the bees where dumped on comb foundation & needed feeding. Once that was done, for the next 2 years no hives were fed sugar they only ate honey still eventually lost them all.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> if it is about bees suited to your area, that means bees suited to the local environment. So it *is* about environment.


Interestingly this very topic is being discussed on bee-L.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Don't read beeline & don't know what conclusion their "experts" will come to, I was just pointing out from Juhani's post that one cannot say the environment does not matter, but the location does. Because the environment is determined by the location.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

so do you use the black walnut in your smoker when you do your normal hive inspections?


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

JasonERD said:


> Sorry for digging up an older thread. As a new beekeeper that is wrapping up year number 2, and going to be entering year 3 in the spring... What is different from year number 2 and year number 3? I am not completely treatment free, but I would still like to know what to look out for.


That's okay.
I noticed some K-wing bees in some hives (a virus transmitted by mites) and a general decline in population.
Had a couple hive abscond, I guess trying to escape the mites.
Also saw an increase of trouble with hive beetles, wax moths, and ants as the populations fell and were not able defend themselves against common pests.
I had some hives freeze during the polar vortex. I attributed this to mites dwindling the numbers down so that they didn't have enough bees to keep warm. Lots of dead mites found littered on the bottom board in my post-mortem inspections. 
My 3rd year treatment-free just lead to failure.
Now since I treat, I have strong healthier hives that are populous and actually were able to make a surplus of honey unlike before.
This was my experience, not trying to discourage anyone.
Maybe you will have better luck than I. I hope you do.
Just try it & report back; just don't let any loses discourage you.
Learn what works for you. 
I'd like to be treatment-free one day but I am just not able to yet.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Don't read beeline & don't know what conclusion their "experts" will come to, I was just pointing out from Juhani's post that one cannot say the environment does not matter, but the location does. Because the environment is determined by the location.


What I meant was, that bees get suited into the environment, but they eventually change genetically, so they can be sent to an other environment and they will be varroa resistant there too.

As I did 2009. Sent queens to Paul Jungels in Luxembourg, 2000 km from here, and he found some of them to be varroa resistant there. Not all of them because natural variation was huge (it still is a trouble but not so big). Nobody can breed 100% varroa resistant bees in 8 years (project start 2001)


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

I don't like treating the bees as it's time consuming and I am in doubt if it's a good practice in the long run. People in my country are so "eager doctors" this time of the year using all kind of heavy chemicals - ridiculous.
If a hive can withstand 2 years without treatment then it's definitely no fuss in applying one treatment/year using OA or any other effective treatment. I wonder why there is no "official schema" of this kind.
I can see that this "varroa" has become the scapegoat of all problems .


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Juhani Lunden said:


> What I meant was, that bees get suited into the environment, but they eventually change genetically, so they can be sent to an other environment and they will be varroa resistant there too.


How many generations does it take for this genetic change to occur?


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> How many generations does it take for this genetic change to occur?


I don´t know exactly, but I made it in 8 years (4-5 generations?), but controlled isolation matings were used and some counting mites too.

Swedish professor Ingemar Fries was able to demonstrate in a study, that his bees in Gotland island had changed in just under 10 years. These bees were left alone in Gotland, some isolation too, and a lot of swarming. (My bees don´t swarm, some reason being their small brood areas.) These Gotland bees were studied together with bees from France, they had similar qualities in their ability to fight mites, but some differences too.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Perhaps the term "Treatment Free" is being interpreted as management free. Smoking with walnut shavings seems like a management practice to me rather than a treatment.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not if the intention or result is to control varroa mites.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

What is the meaning of is, anyway?


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