# 8 frame or 10



## bison (Apr 27, 2011)

I use all 10 frame, but that's just a coincidence of how I got started. Most people seem to start with 8 frame stuff. As far as I know, the only real difference is weight and the relative difficulty of hefting a full 10 frame honey super versus an 8 frame. I don't think the bees care at all.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

To Bee or not to Bee is the question.


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## MrHappy (Feb 10, 2012)

I went with 10 frame since its more common. I can get stuff off Craigslist and eBay for pretty cheap and most seems to be 10 frame. I also thought that I wouldn't have to look at it as much since there are 2 extra frames for them to fill out before I have to add more boxes to them. I also don't care about the extra weight as I take the frames out one at a time, put them into a box on my dolly, and wheel it to the extractor. That's my thinking.


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## n1rcv (Dec 8, 2010)

I currently have 3 hives that are 10 frame ( 2 double deep and 1 with 4 mediums) and 2 hives that are 8 frame mediums. I plan on adding more 8 frame medium hives and used my 10 frame stuff as double nucs.

I got talked in to buying a 10 frame deep hive by an old beekeeper I bought my first nuc from. I won the second 10 frame deep hive in a raffle.

Have a good day.

William


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I have rooftop hives on a 1930 4 story building with no elevator so 8 frame mediums are a no brainer. I started out with 10 frame and cut all mine down. After doing so, I was much more pleased with the versatility of 8 frame boxes. 

You don't have to make nuc boxes as you can use 8 frames with two follower boards to make up 6 frame medium nucs. This comes in real handy when you combine nucs to regular hives.

I'm also constantly moving hives from one yard to another and I can fit more hives in my rig and on hive stands.

Also, I've found that my bees do better in 8 frames. I think it mimics more the size of a tree for my area and swarms are more attracted to them as well.


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## sammyjay (May 2, 2011)

I use ten frame deeps. I have to get someone else to lift them, but it's a lot cheaper.


Nathan


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## avesterfelt (Jan 31, 2012)

I have been using both 8 frame and 10 frame to see which the bees and I prefer (along with some TBH and a few experiments that I have). I prefer the 8 frame and will be building all of my future equipment 8 frame (unless one of my experiments pans out really well and changes my mind). 

I noticed the bees tend to draw out all 8 frames without me having to move them around like the 10 frame, when using foundation. However since I have gone to foundationless, they may draw them all the way out in the 10 frames, I have not given them a chance at this. My 8 frame hives seem to out perform the 10 frames probably because they have 2 less frames to fill. I have noticed less problems with moisture and pests in the 8 frames and attribute that to having less space for them to control. I don’t use chemicals in any of my hives so buying used equipment is not something that I will ever do. 

I am still young (30’s) so the weight is not an issue; however the 8 frames stack up high pretty fast. I have one hive that is already got 2 deep, 2 med and will need another med this coming week if the frost did not kill the flow.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

avesterfelt said:


> My 8 frame hives seem to out perform the 10 frames probably because they have 2 less frames to fill. I have noticed less problems with moisture and pests in the 8 frames and attribute that to having less space for them to control. I don’t use chemicals in any of my hives so buying used equipment is not something that I will ever do.


I'm experiencing the same. As far as the Craigslist comment about 10 frame equipment being more available, I would never buy used equipment from anyone I don't know, especially from Craigslist.


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

I am going with eight frame also. Was looking for easier ventilation, smaller area to have to inspect, new equipment for sure never know online what u r getting in old equipment. I would hate to loose my colony over AFB or EFB disease. I liked the ideas of a little less weight and a smaller area to have to take up.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Charlie B said:


> I'm experiencing the same. As far as the Craigslist comment about 10 frame equipment being more available, I would never buy used equipment from anyone I don't know, especially from Craigslist.


i throw out the combs unless they are pristine and scorch the woodenware with a torch. One can easily be overly paranoid and overly careful. The bait swarms you catch could more likely be bringing in disease than some used boxes.

>I would never buy used equipment from anyone I don't know, especially from Craigslist.

Hey, I sell lots of stuff on Craigslist, now my feelings are really hurt.


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## cheryl anne (May 20, 2011)

avesterfelt;78123.
. However since I have gone to foundationless said:


> i just bought a new 8 frame hive with 4 med boxes, i also bought foundationless frames. i have not put any bees in yet , this is my 2nd yr beekeeping and i am a bit nervous about doing this. i was told to paint some melted wax on the top to guide the bees. i have a deep box hive also 8 frame that i put out last yr, it has already swarmed this yr but still full of bees and queen cells, how could i use those queen cells to start another hive. i cannot interchange the frames from the deeps though, could i shake some bees in there. my deep boxes are full of honey and pollen and brood, my old queen is gone. last checked the hive 5 days ago i have left it alone since hoping a queen cell will hatch and they will be ok. i do have super on with wax foundation but they will not draw it out, i have sprayed it with sugar water as well not sure what else to do but i don't want another swarm. any advise is appreciated
> cheryl anne


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## avesterfelt (Jan 31, 2012)

If the hive is queenless, I would not do anything with it yet. It will take time for the new queen to start laying and new bees to be ready to help out and forage. You could chance killing your hive completely by splitting it now. If you want more bees; buy a package, catch a swarm, or wait till next year and take a split. Of course this all really depends on what your current hive looks like. If the hive has 15 frames of capped brood and bees covering all those frames, then you could split the hive without problem. I assume it is not that strong since they are not drawing on the super.

Since you have the super on your hive already I would just wait for them to get some drawn out. Keep in mind they will not draw it out unless they need the storage space.
Also it takes time to get foundationless working for you; sometimes they will draw it perfect in the frames without drawn comb to guide them, sometimes not. It can be fixed fairly easy but you need to fix it early and don’t assume they will correct it, they wont. Once they draw out 2 frames, start sticking the foundationless in between and watch how fast the build that out (I was shocked when I first did it). 

I use a piece of medium foundation for my strips; I just take a medium sheet of foundation and cut 1” strips out of it. Then take the wedge off the frame and squeeze the strip in there, a couple of staples, and done. 

I am no expert, I just jumped in head first when I started and experimented right off the bat, plus I have been around bees for some time. You have to do what you are comfortable with or it will just be a disappointment and too many people get out because they have unrealistic goals. You will loose hives when you experiment; you will also learn a lot through failure. 

Hope I answered the question without too much babbling on.


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## cheryl anne (May 20, 2011)

thanks a lot it does help. i do have frames with wax foundation for the med boxes. but i also bought the foundationless from with the "v" shape for the bees to build comb. i will probably wait until next yr to start this one unless the hive i have starts to get overcrowded. if i understood you correctly i should put 2 frames with foundation and an empty foundationless frame in between so they will build correctly. 
cheryl anne


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## Konrad (Oct 7, 2004)

8 frames hasn't worked out good for me, went back to 10 frames.

Reason,..bee space on 8 frames too eregular, then you end up comb build up on frames not regular.


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## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

I started out last year with two 10-frame deeps. After picking picking up a 10-frame box, I decided this year do a split into an 8-frame deep. I'm betting that I end up with all 8-frame mediums before it's over with.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It is kind of too bad the standard sizes seem to be just a little off on space. The 13 3/4" are a little big for eight and the 14" are just too tight for the 9 frames that will fit. But they still work better in my experience than the ten frame. They fill them better and make better use of them and they winter better. But often a fat comb makes eight work well. A follower also makes them work well, and with narrow frames (1 1/4") nine works nicely.


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## Kevin245 (Apr 5, 2010)

We run 8-Frame woodenware. When it was just a copule of hives it was no big deal, but now it is a big deal. I spent 4 hours checking newly established hives last Thursday and was ever so grateful.


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## BPApiaries (Jan 30, 2012)

Michael Bush has a great breakdown of the pros and cons on his website that really helped me make my decision.

It really all comes down to weight versus price. It is cheaper to buy less boxes for the same number of frames and ten frame equipment is more common than eight frame which is why I chose to go with ten frame mediums myself.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Konrad said:


> Reason,..bee space on 8 frames too eregular, then you end up comb build up on frames not regular.


What?


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm starting to cut my 10 frames to 8. My lower back told me to do this Probably just my imagination, but the width of my arms to pick up a 10 vs less for an 8 seems to make a difference in balance. I "forge" my own stuff with the exception of frames so cost does not really enter into it. If I injure the back again, I may cut them the other way and make em meds.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

I'm using 8 frame foundationless deeps with 9 true 1 1/4" frames. An idea I picked up from M Bush's site. The bees seem to like it and so do I. Having a previous 14 years with the bees, I would have not believed they could work so fast on foundationless without seeing it in action. Thanks Michael!

Just an observation; I had 20 sheets of foundation, so I put one in 20 hives. My check last week revealed the bees were still favoring making their own wax and hardly touching the foundation. I have read bees show no preference to foundation, now I can attest to it.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Maybe I will cut everything down to 5 frames... That will make them really light.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

The biggest difference is the weight. I don't think the bees notice all that much. However, there is probably a minimum size of hive space below which the bees will survive just fine but not make any surplus -- think a ten gallon space as optimum, plus whatever super space the bees will be filling with honey for the beekeeper. 

A stack of nuc boxes is going to be rather unstable once you get five or six stacked up.......

After heaving a full deep, I'm making thinking noises about mediums for the brood nest, although I'm still leaning toward shallows for honey. Still using 10 frame.

I do recommend 8 frame equipment for the several women who have expressed an interest in beekeeping, on the principle that smaller, late middle aged people might not want to try to wrestle 95 lb boxes at shoulder height. 

I've noticed, from pictures, that "standard" European hives tend to be more square and shorter than the Langstroth -- I would guess something like 16" x 16" rather than 20" x 16". I'm sure the dimensions are around somewhere, I've not looked in detail.

Good thing it really doesn't matter what you use -- the bees will be happy if you make boxes sizes other than standard Langstroth. The only thing I would not do is use all shallows, simply because I think the bees prefer a deeper brood area, but I'm also sure someone is, and getting good results. After all, bees are well known to inhabit the space between floors in houses quite nicely, making the comb just about a shallow in depth!

Once I get established, I may try some experiments -- 11.5" deeps for single brood boxes, square hives instead of rectangular, and so forth. Not that big a deal to make any size equipment I want for me, as interchangeability is a minor concern as a hobbyist. In a commercial operation, I'd stick with standard sizes, of course, unless I wanted to make commercial quantities of frames and boxes!

Peter


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

8's.
My top bar hives are entering their third season, and 8 frame langs are starting this season.

I'm using narrow frames for the brood - in deeps. Regular frames in the honey supers - in mediums. 

We'll see how it goes.

Adam


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## Risky Beesness (Dec 29, 2010)

I used all 10 frame last year, my 1st. I have deeps for brood and mediums for supers. I decided that I wanted all deeps for continuity, but don't cherish the idea of lifting 100 lbs into my retirement years, even at 230 lbs. For some reason 80 lbs seems much more manageable to me and running all deeps still gives me the flexibility to buy or sell a standard nucs. All my frames will be the same, just a matter of 5 or 8 frames. Since this is just my 2nd year, and I'm still in the experimental stages, everything is subject to change.


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## avesterfelt (Jan 31, 2012)

cheryl anne said:


> if i understood you correctly i should put 2 frames with foundation and an empty foundationless frame in between so they will build correctly.
> cheryl anne


Cheryl, if you do not have any drawn comb, the foundation may help a little, but odds are you will be doing some trimming to get it fixed(easy to do and the bees will fix it after you tear it up). Drawn comb is the best guide, you just sandwich the foundationless between those two: CEC.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Maybe I will cut everything down to 5 frames... That will make them really light. 

And tip over easily...


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

LOL  
Just me but I think I detected a note of sarcasm in the "cut down to five frames" comment. Six would work better


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Yes my sarcasm doesn't project well on a form. 

The reality is we cannot really change the weight in beekeeping... The hive as a whole weighs what it weighs. The narrower and shallower you make the boxes the higher you have to go with them... Sometimes distributing the weight higher isn't the best answer.

For the majority of us on here we are only handling a few hives. The big and middle size operations all use bobcats and swingers for the heavy lifting. If you are not healthy enough to move a couple of 80 lb boxes, once or twice a year, you may want to consult your physician before taking up beekeeping.

I use to operate a Sawmill and that was hard work, bad on your joints, hard on your back... I received multiple injuries... My solution wasn't to mill smaller trees. That would require the same amount of work to mill and stack 1000 BF... I sold the sawmill.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

I had a portable sawmill,, Woodmizer HD40. Was great when I had help. I can identify somewhat. I sold mine as well. 
It very well may be the weight is the weight. If it comes to that, then I'll have to remove frame at a time. I can walk a long way,,,, I just can't pull a wagon with 500 lbs in it 
It's all good.


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