# Foundationless with Wire



## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

Here's one person's idea: 










Matt


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#canwire


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

I use foundationless frames and don't have any problems with that approach. I don't remember having almost any problem. And I did move my hives around some fields (earthen roads) last two seasons.


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

You want maybe something like this http://bwrangler.litarium.com/wp-content/uploads/top-bar-with-t-and-beeswax-filled-kerf.jpg
Ask Denis Murell for advice he, did it like this.


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## deskem (Nov 27, 2008)

*TBH foundationless*

Hi everyone, I´m a new member keeping bees in Germany having kept hives in the UK long ago. Now retired, I suffer from the usual beekeeper´s back, due in part to Dadant hives which are certainly heavy. I have since built two long hives based on Dadant broodframes to avoid the lifting problem there being no supers.I keep Buckfast (hybrid ) bees.
I don´t see the point of TBH, why discard frames, bee space and the honey extractor? These inventions revolutionised beekeeping. Good, a TBH is fairly easy to build but the top bars must be well made to work properly as must the sloping sides. In third world countries I can see the advantages of TBH but nowhere else.
A trough hive is not difficult to make and frames bought flat are cheap.You can use just strips of foundation, the bees will do the rest, the frames can be wired or not ( if you don´t have an extractor wiring is probably unnecessary.)
I hope these forums are not rigidly tied to specific races/ strains of honeybees,there should be room to differ. Regards Deskem ( Derek)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>if you don´t have an extractor wiring is probably unnecessary.

I have an extractor and wiring is still unnecessary. It was really invented to stop the foundation from sagging before it was drawn.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Michael Bush said:


> >I have an extractor and wiring is still unnecessary. It was really invented to stop the foundation from sagging before it was drawn.


I have rarely seen foundation sag, I put it on so that it is immediately drawn out, and am not in a hot climate, but I have many times had combs blow apart in the extractor. The worst were the new SC combs with no vertical wires drawn out in the honey supers.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Using some medium depth frames with horizontal wires and without foundation. It has been fascinating to see the bees begin portions of their comb on the wires, building both up and down from there.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've seen lots of wax foundation sag. But then I was foolish enough to try to get it done ahead of time. I've seen wired wax blow out in the extractor. Of course I've been careful with the unwired combs, but I haven't had any of them blow out. Gentleness is always a good plan with extracting.


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## deskem (Nov 27, 2008)

*Foundationless with wire*



Michael Bush said:


> >if you don´t have an extractor wiring is probably unnecessary.
> 
> I have an extractor and wiring is still unnecessary. It was really invented to stop the foundation from sagging before it was drawn.


Depends upon size of frame,age of comb and if comb has had brood. In a long hive combs will be deep, no shallows.A full Dadant honeycomb can weigh over 4kg, wired is definitely safer when extracting. Balancing large combs can be difficult. It´s true, even wired foundation can warp in the hive if not drawn out due temperature & humidity especially if foundation totally fills the frame, it must have room to expand.


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