# How to connect two deep frames



## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Hi guys! I am just getting into beekeeping and am finishing a Lazutin hive.

My plan is to connect two deep Langstroth's horizontally (one on top of the other: not side by side) to make an extra-deep frame 18 1/2'' long.

What would be the best way to connect these and would the bees not like the 1'' horizontal beam breaking their comb?

Has anybody else tried this? Please let me know. Thanks!


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

Zip ties.
I suppose you could cut most of the middle bars so there is 1" on either end and zip tie there. That way there is no break.
That's if you will not ever want to separate them.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

There is a break even larger between upper and lower frames in stacked Langstroth hives. Bees usually manage but perhaps in weak colonies they could get stalled there and fail to progress into upper frames. It has been mentioned but perhaps there are some extenuating circumstances involved. As Tigger mentions above, unless you are planning a quick disconnect to be able to fit an extractor you could do a more permanent joint that gets rid of the wood between. Vino Farm vids on Youtube feature his joining method. 

My choice was to make custom long sidebars.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Thanks crofter and Tigger! I do plan on disconnecting the frames for extraction, so I think I won't cut the frames (at least for now) and hope that the colony will cross the wooden gap between the combs. I think I'm going to use either zip ties or wire to connect the two deeps together. I guess sometimes we should just stop the analysis paralysis and go out and try something. And if it doesn't work hopefully, we learn from are mistakes and try again next year!


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

BEE J said:


> I do plan on disconnecting the frames for extraction, so I think I won't cut the frames (at least for now) and hope that the colony will cross the wooden gap between the combs.


Just spotted the above, so the following may not be relevant - but I'll post it anyway, as someone else may be planning something similar, but for C&S.

The technique I've used in the past to add extra depth to a frame is to simply cable-tie the two frames together - but this requires a strong bottom-bar and does generate a substantial obstruction at mid comb (which doesn't appear to completely freak the bees out, but they clearly don't like it).

Much depends on whether or not you want both 'halves' of your Lazutin frames to be returnable to Langstroth hives. If you don't, and they're to remain double-depth, then this is what I'd suggest:

First, remove the bottom bars from both frames, and then remove the lugs from the lower frame and invert it - such that the 'bottoms' of both sets of side-bars meet. Doing this will completely remove the obstruction of which you speak.

To join the side-bars, simply butt-glue them together using TiteBond III or equivalent, ensuring that the resulting extra-long side-bar is perfectly straight. Then, when the glue has dried, attach (say, 3" long) wooden splints across the joint on the inside surface of each side-bar, thusly:








If you plan on running foundationless, then use a one-piece splint (ensuring that the foundation-groove behind the splint is filled-in beforehand. But if you plan to use foundation, then you'll need to use a divided splint, as per the section illustrated (which is not to scale, obviously).

One last thought - to save money, don't use a pukka frame below a Langstroth Deep - just add-on your own side-bars and add a plain bottom-bar. They'd be easy enough to make from scrap wood. 
LJ


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

BEE J said:


> Thanks crofter and Tigger! I do plan on disconnecting the frames for extraction, so I think I won't cut the frames (at least for now) and hope that the colony will cross the wooden gap between the combs. I think I'm going to use either zip ties or wire to connect the two deeps together. I guess sometimes we should just stop the analysis paralysis and go out and try something. And if it doesn't work hopefully, we learn from are mistakes and try again next year!


That's going to be a lot of work to undo and redo.
I think you should do 2 hives.
1 regular Lang's
2. Lazutin for this just make separate frames for each. Frame parts...use the top and 4 side parts and a bottom. Personally I would just put a strip of wood, like a paint stirer, glue and staple the 2 sides like above an connect to bottom.
Do crush and strain if you're new, no point in getting a spinner just for 1 hive.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

little_john said:


> The technique I've used in the past to add extra depth to a frame is to simply cable-tie the two frames together


I'm going to try that for now but if the horizontal beam really bothers the bees I might need to do some experimenting.  I'm excited to get a reply from you LJ as I see you've been in the horizontal hive forums quite a bit!


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Tigger19687 said:


> I think you should do 2 hives.
> 1 regular Lang's


My Dad has done Langstroth before (we still have lots of empty hives and boxes sitting on the shelf) and all the bees eventually died out. I'm not blaming the Lang's for that though as it could have been a host of other reasons (like a lack of are attention). I read "Keeping Bees with A Smile" by Fedor Lazutin and it seemed like a simpler way to keep bees, so I have put together a hive from his plans and was going to give it a shot. 



Tigger19687 said:


> Do crush and strain if you're new, no point in getting a spinner just for 1 hive.


We actually already have an extractor and that is why I'm doing all this finagling with the frames, so we can use it.



Tigger19687 said:


> That's going to be a lot of work to undo and redo.


Really? I thought I could just snip the zip ties to separate the frames for extraction, and zip another one on to connect them again for use next year. 

But I would love to hear your option's, criticisms, and past experiences! Cool to hear from you too Tigger!
Best regards, BEEJ


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

A pain to undo and redo because it will be all sticky and gooey.
One of my peeves was getting Everything from tools-pants- well I got honey on everything really. And then having to clean it all and try not to drag it into the house.
Also, you know that you have to cut off the top side tabs of the bottom deep frame. Not sure if you need those for the extraction... I crush and strain 😉

I too have Lang stuff, duct taped 2 deeps together fo now.
I'm looking for a house so I've not built a deep long hive yet


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## backyard smallcell (10 mo ago)

Just asking before I do something like this, what's the benefits of a jumbo deep brood chamber?
I'm just starting out myself!


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

backyard smallcell said:


> Just asking before I do something like this, what's the benefits of a jumbo deep brood chamber?
> I'm just starting out myself!


Search videos on Dr Leo and his hives.... Plus there are a number of threads on this site for info


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I've been thinking about these double-deep Langstroth frames overnight. I have two concerns about them - both solvable - which might be worth at least thinking about ...
The first is when introducing a colony. These frames really are 'barn-doors' - so I'd say it would be essential to install a partition/follower board, and have it closed right up with just 2 or 3 (max) frames in the initial cavity, until the bees start to develop some numbers.
The second is the issue of handling such large frames. Even a single Langstroth Deep would test your finger strength if loaded with honey - so I'd suggest buying 'a frame-grabber'. I bought a couple of s/s grabbers a while back (ex China - where else ?) and although they're not exactly brilliantly made, they *will* do the job. They'll keep propolis off your fingers too, as a bonus. 
LJ


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

lj; I just finished watching Vino Farms March inspection of his colonies with frames a combined deep and medium. He is really pleased with their development. He does not seem to have difficulty handlling them and many are very loaded with stores; too much stores and bees perhaps. I dont know how this will play out regarding swarms. You could definitely make splits and increase population if you want to be selling bees. He did claim 100% survival which is a complete about face for him.

Where is the point of diminishing value of increased individual frame area? What beekeeping objectives would determine what areas are directly impacted by increasing individual frame area. To some extent reducing *frame count *could compensate. Where does utility end and mere bragging rights take over?

Thoughts anyone? Perhaps I am venturing down that road with my 13" deep Lang frame.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> Thoughts anyone? Perhaps I am venturing down that road with my 13" deep Lang frame.


since I did see you "made" some long side bars.
IF that size (2 medium side by side) is your goal, rather than use 4 bucks worth of lang wooden ware, why not make a thick ish side bar, groved, and top and bottom, and save the funds on the wooden ware.

seems if this 2 side by side medium "works" and I see no reason why it would not , then just jump to the next step, and not have the wood in the center. UNLESS taking apart and extracting is in the mix.

just looking down the road on this

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Where is the point of diminishing value of increased individual frame area?


I am repeating myself here but here goes again:

- one must be able to relatively easily hold and manipulate a single frame by a single hand.

Once this ergonomic requirement is violated, the frame becomes TOO LARGE for managed environment.
So, the Lazutin frame is too large.
The deep Dadant/Ukrainian size is where it stays at the max (obviously, everything smaller is OK too).

Just a sample use-case - try holding and turning about a frame by one hand while spraying the comb with a bottle sprayer.
Another sample case - hold a frame while reaching away to fetch the queen grabber.
I can produce tens of such cases where secure holding/manipulating a frame by your single *secondary(!) *hand is mandatory. Try this with Lazutin frame. 

Another repeat of myself:

if working by a frame - the frame must be large but NOT too large
if working by a box - the box must be small, but NOT too small
when configured well, the proper balance of a frame/box sizing meets both human and insect requirements well
And herein is the basic beekeeper ergonomics.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> since I did see you "made" some long side bars.
> IF that size (2 medium side by side) is your goal, rather than use 4 bucks worth of lang wooden ware, why not make a thick ish side bar, groved, and top and bottom, and save the funds on the wooden ware.
> 
> seems if this 2 side by side medium "works" and I see no reason why it would not , then just jump to the next step, and not have the wood in the center. UNLESS taking apart and extracting is in the mix.
> ...


I just wanted actually put my hands on the combination of a pair of medium frames joined with the wire through the horns and two Ni Ties. Separable for extracting and do able with drawn frames when starting colonies from bare frames. Would be easily done for someone without the wherewithall to make the custom frame side pieces. 

To make the thicker sidebars would be no added work but you could not use the mass produced top bars without widening the rebates. From scratch it just means using a 1/2 router bit instead of a 3/8".

Virtical wiring does not put much strain on sidebars but transverse wiring over the longer span will suck in the sides of standard bars if you want to play the mandolin on them.

What Greg said, re. the Lazutin/Lang monster frames being a handling issue for me and likely not an efficient use of frame space. If you want honey up above in supers or off to the side, you do not want them putting a lot in the brood area. Wintering concerns can perhaps have different dictates than optimum honey production and harvesting. Cutting out sections of honey from frames is a different style than extracting frames.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Tigger19687 said:


> A pain to undo and redo because it will be all sticky and gooey.
> One of my peeves was getting Everything from tools-pants- well I got honey on everything really. And then having to clean it all and try not to drag it into the house.
> Also, you know that you have to cut off the top side tabs of the bottom deep frame. Not sure if you need those for the extraction... I crush and strain 😉
> 
> ...


😊We'll I'm going to give it a shot... at least it will be a good learning experience. (Maybe I'll send some pics letting Ya'll know how it goes!) Do you really duct tape two frames together? Don't the bees chew through it?


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

backyard smallcell said:


> Just asking before I do something like this, what's the benefits of a jumbo deep brood chamber?
> I'm just starting out myself!


I'm not sure how deep those frames would be and have no hands-on experience with Langstroth (I'm, new to beekeeping and don't even have my first set of bees yet😉) but I would defenitly read ''Keeping Bees with A Smile'' and check out Dr. Leo at horozontialhives.com (he has a class starting very soon). If you want to try something exactly like I'm doing I you will need to read that book. It's cool that you're new too, hopefully we can learn lots here together!😃

Best Regards, BEEJ


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

little_john said:


> Even a single Langstroth Deep would test your finger strength if loaded with honey - so I'd suggest buying 'a frame-grabber


That's an instresting point little john, I might just need one of those frame grabbers!



little_john said:


> These frames really are 'barn-doors' - so I'd say it would be essential to install a partition/follower board, and have it closed right up with just 2 or 3 (max) frames in the initial cavity, until the bees start to develop some numbers.


I don't completely understand what you mean here but I think I get the gist of it. Yes, you do need expand with more frames as the bees keep building come but the bees do need to know that there is plenty of room for future growth. 

P.S Thanks for thinking about these frames I'm trying out it's great to get experienced beekeepers thoughts on them!!!

BEE Happy, BEEJ🐝🐝🐝


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> seems if this 2 side by side medium "works" and I see no reason why it would not , then just jump to the next step, and not have the wood in the center. UNLESS taking apart and extracting is in the mix.


Gray Goose this is one of the biggest draw backs of the extra-deep frame to me...there's no extractor for it😢😢😢. So, we all are rigging up frames to compensate for that.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Once this ergonomic requirement is violated, the frame becomes TOO LARGE for managed environment.
> So, the Lazutin frame is too large.


I admit the Lazutin frame might be a bit overkill in MY climate but in some (like Russia, where Fedor lived) it is more of a necessity (based on simple math of how the cluster moves during the winter). Lazutin observed that the Dadant hive where killing the bees during the winter due to too small of a frame.



GregB said:


> Just a sample use-case - try holding and turning about a frame by one hand while spraying the comb with a bottle sprayer.
> Another sample case - hold a frame while reaching away to fetch the queen grabber.
> I can produce tens of such cases where secure holding/manipulating a frame by your single *secondary(!) *hand is mandatory. Try this with Lazutin frame.


We'll actually natural beekeeping the way Mr. Lazutin did it doesn't require all those special procedures that require one hand. I do reconize that it might be helpful to have another person during the harvest but I think people can manage these heavier frames as I have heard of even ladies keeping bees with even bigger frames! At least it will be good for are health💪 (as long as we don't break are back). 

Thanks so much for putting in your thoughts Greg, I really appreciate it! I'm also excited to hear from you as I've seen some of the cool out-of-the-box ideas you've had, and your activity on horozontial hives!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> I admit the Lazutin frame might be a bit overkill in MY climate but in some (like Russia, where Fedor lived) it is more of a necessity (based on simple math of how the cluster moves during the winter). Lazutin observed that the Dadant hive where killing the bees during the winter due to too small of a frame.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


@BEE J,

Let me point out that I have read the Lazutin book in its original language (if that matters).

So be aware that while the book is a fun read, it gives away too many idealistic and incorrect queues that many readers try and get disappointed. I am one of such readers - this is while I had plenty of beekeeping experience before I even read the book.

But it is fine - you should try things for yourself and form your own opinion and experience on the subject. Go for it, give it a try and report back.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> To make the thicker sidebars would be no added work but you could not use the mass produced top bars without widening the rebates. From scratch it just means using a 1/2 router bit instead of a 3/8".


sorry I presumed the width of 2 medium is less than a lang width and you were making the top bar anyway.



crofter said:


> Virtical wiring does not put much strain on sidebars but transverse wiring over the longer span will suck in the sides of standard bars if you want to play the mandolin on them.


with plastic foundation the wire would be optional, hence the slot in the thicker side bar.

carry on

GG


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Let me point out that I have read the Lazutin book in its original language (if that matters).
> 
> So be aware that while the book is a fun read, it gives away too many idealistic and incorrect queues that many readers try and get disappointed. I am one of such readers - this is while I had plenty of beekeeping experience before I even read the book.
> 
> But it is fine - you should try things for yourself and form your own opinion and experience on the subject. Go for it, give it a try and report back.


I apologize if I came across as a know-it-all when the fact is I have never even had a hive. I am just hoping to catch my first swarm this year. 
Yes Sir, I hope to let you know how it goes and maybe I can send you some pics.
I respect you and your status in beekeeper and heartily acknowledge before everyone that there really is no right or wrong when it comes to beekeeping. There're lots of ways to do it and everyone has their own opinions and experiences as Greg said.
Thanks, Greg, for your answer and encouragement.

Your Learning Rookie, BEEJ


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

BEE J said:


> Gray Goose this is one of the biggest draw backs of the extra-deep frame to me...there's no extractor for it😢😢😢. So, we all are rigging up frames to compensate for that.


one can be made or found IMO






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Your local bee keeping experts since 1976! All our woodenware is handcrafted on site by skilled family artisans since 1976. We use only the finest East Coast White Pine to craft the perfect product to meet your needs.



millerbeesupply.com




This extractor will fit 3 Layens frames, 3 deep langstroth frames, or 6 super langstroth frames.

to me it is odd to START at a place where one needs to tie wrap frames to cut apart.

How did you confirm the current Lang setup would not work in your locale?

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think it is not a matter of the Dadant Langstroth frame being too small in area; if it were taller it would lend itself better to the longer upward expanse of stores. Bees move up more readily than spreading out sideways to sweep the stores. Bees can arrive at the top with most of the stores untouched at the sides, especially so with a small cluster.
Two frames joined one above the other cures the height issue but you may find a lot of honey at the sides being unused. In a foundationless system using cut out comb honey / crush and strain, that is not a problem. Try it and see! I am playing with a taller frame scenario too.

As Greg says, dont gulp down all of someones enthusiastic descriptions; there is stuff on some web sites giving glowing reports on issues that were created when the author was still full of his initial enthusiasm before he discovered the warts on the idea and is no longer doing it that way. It still remains on their web sites though!

Is that good to eat? Suck it and see!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> sorry I presumed the width of 2 medium is less than a lang width and you were making the top bar anyway.
> 
> 
> with plastic foundation the wire would be optional, hence the slot in the thicker side bar.
> ...


I think I was off on a different page in the hymnbook; When talking about joining frames sometimes it is an unknown whether side by side is envisioned, or one above the other; width and depth designations flip and morph! 
If a person is making frames that wont see extractor duty or be shook to clear of bees, a simpler frame construction can be used compared to the most common Lang top bar design. The Layens design can be made without dado blades or rounter. Simple table saw, or in a pinch, a skillsaw fastened upside down under a table top!


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> one can be made or found IMO


What's IMO stand for ❓






SAF Regata Extractor for Layens Frames, Miller Bee Supply


Your local bee keeping experts since 1976! All our woodenware is handcrafted on site by skilled family artisans since 1976. We use only the finest East Coast White Pine to craft the perfect product to meet your needs.



 millerbeesupply.com




This extractor will fit 3 Layens frames, 3 deep langstroth frames, or 6 super langstroth frames.
GG
[/QUOTE]

Will this extractor fit two deep Langstroth's CONECTED togther (totalling 18 & 1/2'' deep with a 19'' top bar)? I really wanted to build these frames in a way that we could use the extractor we already have (a Maxant for Langstroth frames).`

to me it is odd to START at a place where one needs to tie wrap frames to cut apart.
GG
[/QUOTE]

It is a lit out of the norm but I was envisioning it being pretty simple (1. cut the zip ties 2. separate the frames 3.rezip the frames for next year) Do you see it being otherwise? Please let me know!

How did you confirm the current Lang setup would not work in your locale?
GG
[/QUOTE]
Dad used to have several Langstroth's ( as well as topbars and even a warrae) but they all died. The bees in the Lang set up like the rest eventually either left or died out. The Lang setup may have worked if Dad had made the time in his busy weeks to care for them more. I decided to give bees a try for him and the rest of the clan and started by reading ''Keeping Bees With A Smile'' by Fedor Lazutin. This book got me hooked as it seemed to make beekeeping simple and fun (the Lang system seemed complex with all the things people talk about doing each year). It was also more of a philosophical decision as it seems to be more in line with what bees do in the wild. And a people I've heard seen online and met just seem to tell the similar story... (the bees all died or lot's of swarming and "there ain't no money in beekeeping"- probably because of all the TIME and EXTRA- EFFORT they expend in their apairy's).

SO, I can't conform that the Langtroth system doesn't work here it just that it seems like more work, is a little daughting to me, and people keep talking of failures. If Fedor and DR .Leo's principles work here... it should result in less work, fewer die off's, and happier bees.

I'll give it a shot (I almost got everything ready) and I'll see if I can tell you guys how it goes. I do reconize though that I'm the NEWBEE and Ya'll are experienced pro's! Thanks for sharing your knowledge with me.

Your Friend, BEEJ


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

"As Greg says, dont gulp down all of someones enthusiastic descriptions; there is stuff on some web sites giving glowing reports on issues that were created when the author was still full of his initial enthusiasm before he discovered the warts on the idea and is no longer doing it that way. It still remains on their web sites though!" -crofter
[/QUOTE]
Good advice. That's why it's great to talk to YOU crofter!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Have you considered how much brood is going to be on frames you want to extract? Queen excluders are not as simply used as they would be in Lang style hives. I suppose vertical excluders could be contrived. Comb with cocoons in cells is not so nice to uncap and some people object to having honey from previously brooded comb. With cut and strain you can just cut out pristine sections here and there and avoid the brooded cells issue. I predict your extracting frames, after you get them separated from their partners are not going to be the picture perfect combs like from a Lang arrangement. It will be different management moves from Lang arrangements but I dont see it being remarkably hands free.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

BEE J said:


> What's IMO stand for ❓


In My Opinion

GG


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

BEE J said:


> I don't completely understand what you mean here but I think I get the gist of it. Yes, you do need expand with more frames as the bees keep building come but the bees do need to know that there is plenty of room for future growth.


Well, I was focussing on the initial installation of bees. I'm sure that like all other beekeepers what you want is to install bees and then have them draw comb, rear their young, and get on with the business of "bees being bees".

To recap, you are building a new, very large capacity beehive. Unfortunately, and generally speaking, bees don't much like "new", and they're also rather particular about cavity size as well. I wasn't sure what your source of bees was, and so assumed it would be a Nuc or perhaps a package.

If you browse through the 101 sub-forum, you'll read many stories there of people who've installed bees into a brand new hive without taking the kind of precautions that a more seasoned beekeeper would take, only to watch their bees take off over the nearest hedge ... and away. Ok - so what precautions could be taken ?

I've read within your last couple of posts that you plan to stock your hive with a swarm. Fair enough - but do have a 'Plan B' in mind, just in case this doesn't happen, as it would be a shame to lose a whole season if your luck's out.

In order to catch a swarm, you'll be using a box far smaller than your Lazutin Hive. Now although ideal swarm box dimensions can be argued about all day long, there is a range of sizes which are generally considered appropriate.
Research has shown that approx. 75% of a colony forms a first (prime) swarm, and it appears that - given a choice - it's bees tend to select a cavity broadly similar in size to the one from which they departed. Tom Seeley's classic and much quoted experiment appears to confirm this.

That was the basis of my suggestion that during initial install your colony is likely to be more settled on just 2 or 3 double-deep frames. Once the combs have begun to be drawn and the first batch of eggs has hatched and the bees begin feeding those larvae, the colony can then be considered as 'anchored' to that hive, and gradual size expansion can commence with relative impunity. 
The partition/follower boards I use myself have a two inch (or so) gap at the bottom, so that bees can explore the full extent of the hive, and - more importantly - can more easily return to the brood nest without getting themselves trapped.

Right - 'smell'. If you are able to, do try and source either some really old black and smelly comb, or some 'slum-gum' which will be equally smelly. Such material has zero monetary value within an established apiary, but is of definite value to the beginner, as it can be used equally well within a swarm trap, or inside a newly built beehive in order to disguise it's 'newness'.

Hope at least some of the above is useful ... 
L J


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

crofter said:


> *GregB:* So be aware that while the book is a fun read, it gives away too many idealistic and incorrect queues that many readers try and get disappointed. I am one of such readers - this is while I had plenty of beekeeping experience before I even read the book.
> 
> As Greg says, dont gulp down all of someones enthusiastic descriptions;


FWIW (For What It's Worth) - a guy named Thomas Aquinas once said:* hominem unius libri timeo * (beware the man of one book) - which could be interpreted in several ways:

a) that one should be wary of someone who acquires their views from just one source, because in doing so they can only then be of limited knowledge.

b) that one should be wary of someone who writes only one book (or books about only one subject), as they may be limited in their views.

c) it could also mean that such writers have put a lot of thought, effort and study into writing their one book and must therefore be deep thinkers who consider themselves to be experts or authorities on a subject ... but may not be. 

For me, the message is clear - read as widely as possible - but until a book's contents are confirmed by actual first-hand experience, it's wiser to retain a healthy scepticism. Remember - it's the *job* of an author to sell their ideas - and some are very good indeed at doing so. As I write these words, I can't help feeling that Emile Warre's 'Beekeeping For All' is one of the best examples of this - he weaves a compelling, idealistic picture of how beekeeping could be, if only his particular hive design was adopted by everybody - a very similar claim made by Lazutin, with a completely different style of beehive. Most authors of beekeeping books have similar agendas, in having some unique design or procedure to promote throughout the world. 

Listen to the views and opinions of others, by all means, but discover for yourself what works for YOU.
'best,
LJ


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

crofter said:


> Have you considered how much brood is going to be on frames you want to extract? Queen excluders are not as simply used as they would be in Lang style hives.


The book says nothing on needing queen excluders as where the queen lays can be controlled by shifting the entrance. In my hive their's a long (2-3ft.) entrance that can be ''shifted'' (by blocking up a part with some material like jute roll) and the queen will lay closer to the entrance. Also I don't know if you've already tried this system but you really only extract once, in the fall (or you can wait till spring) so their will bee no brood in the frames farthest from the winter cluster.



crofter said:


> It will be different management moves from Lang arrangements but I don't see it being remarkably hands free.


We'll I'll be the guinea pig for you and try. Maybe your right and it will be just as much work as a Lang's setup. But, if what I've learned is correct this will make a great presentation for everyone!!!

P.S. crofter, do you keep bees naturally (no meds, sugar feed, etc.)???????


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

little_john said:


> Well, I was focussing on the initial installation of bees. I'm sure that like all other beekeepers what you want is to install bees and then have them draw comb, rear their young, and get on with the business of "bees being bees".
> 
> To recap, you are building a new, very large capacity beehive. Unfortunately, and generally speaking, bees don't much like "new", and they're also rather particular about cavity size as well. I wasn't sure what your source of bees was, and so assumed it would be a Nuc or perhaps a package.
> 
> ...


WOW!!! That was an amazing post full of useful information😄!!! So, you recommend when I catch a swarm to only start with 2-3 double deep frames and expand from there? How many frames do you think they will draw with come by the end of the season?



little_john said:


> Right - 'smell'. If you are able to, do try and source either some really old black and smelly comb, or some 'slum-gum' which will be equally smelly.


We have a bunch of old come that has been sitting in a 5 gallon bucket in the rain for a year or two... will that work?

🙂Cheers (I think that's what they say in the UK), BEEJ


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

little_john said:


> FWIW (For What It's Worth) - a guy named Thomas Aquinas once said:* hominem unius libri timeo * (beware the man of one book) - which could be interpreted in several ways:
> 
> a) that one should be wary of someone who acquires their views from just one source, because in doing so they can only then be of limited knowledge.
> 
> ...


Their is a lot of wisdom relating to beekeeping and worldly matters of man in this discourse. I was told by one of my closest companions that this way (by Lazutin) isn't the only way to keep bees. Their are SO MANY DIFFERENT HIVES with different protocols that it could make your head spin. And people wouldn't be keeping bees in these diverse manners if THEY DIDN'T WORK. I'm not saying there's never a BETTER WAY TO DO SOMETHING but often we just need to hit the trail get are hands dirty and find out what way up the mountain is best FOR ARE FEET. 


Great post warning us newbees and even pros to accept a well-written-about idea with out conforming it in are own hives! If what I'm doing works it will be so cool to relate my story to Ya'll.

Cheers my friends, BEEJ 🐝🐝🐝


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

_*"P.S. crofter, do you keep bees naturally (no meds, sugar feed, etc.)??????? "*_

He!! no! With my climate and local forage the bees would no make much surplus beyond stocking themselves for the next winter. Most especially so for a new colony with little drawn comb. Once established for a season the honey placement will be a bit more predictable but initially I would expect to have to do some frame jockeying. With the frame size you are contemplating there is less flexibility compared to smaller frames. They wont be placing much honey off onto strictly honey frames until they get the brood area comb well developed. I would expect to see quite a patchwork of brood, pollen, and honey sections on the same frame. Remember that many pictures supporting a premise may well have been cherry picked!

The wintering benefits of deep frames may not be found with first seasons development and few frames will be filled to the bottom. It may not be easy to develop a compact brood cluster low on the frames. I would think in this respect that a hive and frame design Like the Polish deep hive would be easier to achieve a good wintering configuration than with the huge wide frames you are contemplating. Your season and flow potential might paint a better picture though.

Give it a go by all means; Your joined frames can be separated anyway and can also revert to Lang boxes or left connected and stood upright in a Layens or Polish hive. The box you build can easily have a filler made to reduce its width if you come to the conclusion that narrower may pay better dividends! In other words, keep a plan B in mind. Now some people would say that this is less than positive thinking and weakens your thrust. For me, trusting for enthusiasm to pull me through, does not give me tranquility.

Different strokes for different folks!


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

one could make a "box" of the proper depth and 5 frames wide.
set it on the hive floor against 1 end wall, place the NUC or trapped swarm over this box.
then add 2 or 3 of the long frames, shift the entrance to the long frame area and let the bees build into the new frames.

look at the utube in post 17 for the "box" idea.








Horizontal hive blunders


Might as well learn something about the long hives from mistakes of the others. Could be a good place to attach other learning cases. Sigh... This is what happening when 1)People buy into the Layen's hive without understanding the side-affects of the decision and no clear idea how to deal with...




www.beesource.com





nice find GregB

can be made for under frames or on the side wall to "make narrower"

I would trap in a deep then use the box in the manner of the Utube to convert.
BTW box and trap frames could stay the first year, remove in spring.

GG


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## stevewide48 (Nov 11, 2021)

It's so easy to cut the ends off the ears off the lower frame and zip tie it to a normal Langstroth frame. Easy to extract. Staple a 1/2" thick piece on the frame to put the ears back on it when you need to move it to the top. That's all there is too it. I get my direction following Michael Scott on Facebook group: Sustainable Bee Keeping & his website The Thriving Hive


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

stevewide48 said:


> It's so easy to cut the ends off the ears off the lower frame and zip tie it to a normal Langstroth frame. Easy to extract. Staple a 1/2" thick piece on the frame to put the ears back on it when you need to move it to the top. That's all there is too it. I get my direction following Michael Scott on Facebook group: Sustainable Bee Keeping & his website The Thriving Hive


I'm did cut the ears off the lower frame and zip tie it to the upper one. So you have tried this before and found it easy to extract? Did you have any other experiences with these extra-deep frames?
Thanks BEEJ


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## stevewide (Jul 30, 2021)

BEE J said:


> I'm did cut the ears off the lower frame and zip tie it to the upper one. So you have tried this before and found it easy to extract? Did you have any other experiences with these extra-deep frames?
> Thanks BEEJ


I have these frames in a horizontal hive working well. No difference extracting. With ears off most extractors should work fine.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Great Steve! It's good to hear of other people trying this out. What kind of horizontal hive do you have? Mine is a Lazutin as described in the back of his book. It holds 25-28 extra deep frames. Please let me know if you have any other practical experiences we could all learn from!

Your Pal, BEEJ


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## stevewide48 (Nov 11, 2021)

BEE J said:


> Great Steve! It's good to hear of other people trying this out. What kind of horizontal hive do you have? Mine is a Lazutin as described in the back of his book. It holds 25-28 extra deep frames. Please let me know if you have any other practical experiences we could all learn from!
> 
> Your Pal, BEEJ


I asked Michael Scott to join this forum as he's used double deep Langstroth frames zipped together for several years. I'm just a beginner. But really like his teaching. He might help us more.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

stevewide48 said:


> I asked Michael Scott to join this forum as he's used double deep Langstroth frames zipped together for several years. I'm just a beginner. But really like his teaching. He might help us more.


Who's Michael Scot? Is he on this forum? It sounds like he is doing what I want to do. Is he a natural beekeeper (no sugar, meds, etc.)? Sorry if I'm asking too many questions. I guess us beginners need all the help we can get!😁
I hope were going to learn a lot this season!!!!

Your Bee Buddy, BEEJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> *Who's Michael Scot?* Is he on this forum? It sounds like he is doing what I want to do. Is he a natural beekeeper (no sugar, meds, etc.)? Sorry if I'm asking too many questions. I guess us beginners need all the help we can get!😁
> I hope were going to learn a lot this season!!!!
> 
> Your Bee Buddy, BEEJ


I looked him up.
Here:
THE THRIVING HIVE SYSTEM - Home

The hives are good.

But, as usually, there are sketchy things.
Like this one :
_*



How do you treat your bees?

Click to expand...

*_


> Most people here are refering to varroa mites. *In this sort of box, you are going to do a few brood breaks in a season, which wipes out varroa much better than chemicals, *and without poisoning your bees. This is outlined in our E-Book on Horizontal hives.


That statement is non-sense and not exactly honest as it draws an implication that in "that sort of a hive" you do not need mite control - pretty much what a brand new, "natural-wanna-be" beekeeper wants to hear.

IF I was selling such *nice hives*, I would still be much more straight forward and tell like it is - you need to find out the mite situation for yourself.
An honest hive seller does not know the answer to that question and should not pretend that he does.
It is not a hive question.
It is a location question.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Thanks for finding him Greg!



GregB said:


> An honest hive seller does not know the answer to that question and should not pretend that he does.
> It is not a hive question.
> It is a location question.


 Can you explain this please? 

Thanks, BEEJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> Thanks for finding him Greg!
> 
> 
> Can you explain this please?
> ...


Do not assume that the Lazutin hive will somehow manage the mites for your.
It is up to you to find out IF you can get away without any treatments or you need them.
Some people really can be treatment-free - *location dependent(!).*
For the majority, however, some sort of mite management is necessary - regardless of the hive system used.

This statement to many people will mean no treatments are necessary - "*In this sort of box, you are going to do a few brood breaks in a season, which wipes out varroa much better than chemicals"...*

Meanwhile, the # of brood breaks is not a feature of a hive - it is a feature of bee management model.
This is a mis-leading statement that targets new, inexperienced hive customers as an extra lure into buying.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Do not assume that the Lazutin hive will somehow manage the mites for your.
> It is up to you to find out IF you can get away without any treatments or you need them.
> Some people really can be treatment-free - *location dependent(!).*


So mites thrive in some areas better than others?


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

BEE J said:


> So mites thrive in some areas better than others?


No, mites thrive everywhere. If you have your bees in an area that is isolated, or one that is known as a mite "free" zone, you can achieve TF or non chemical dependancy. 

I clearly remember reading Keeping Bees With A Smile, following Dr. Leo and being starry eyed and full of hope that I somehow could be TF. Then, when at a beginning beekeeping lesson, I found out that I had two beekeepers living close to us who did not have a clue that mites existed or how to treat. They had been just buying bees every spring for the last 3 years and wondering why theirs perished every single winter. 

Still, I soldiered on with the idea that somehow hives that died from mites was a failure in the beekeepers ability to do TF properly, rather than a failure to understand how mites transmit from other peoples hives and that some areas are not conducive to TF. 

They are all just bees in a box, lang. box, long box, Ukrainian box, or Lazin box, none of which matters to a mite infestation.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Post #49 deserves more than a *"like"* !


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> No, mites thrive everywhere. If you have your bees in an area that is isolated, or one that is known as a mite "free" zone, you can achieve TF or non chemical dependancy.


So by isolated you mean at least 3 miles from the nearest beekeeper?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

BEE J said:


> So by isolated you mean at least 3 miles from the nearest beekeeper?


That would only give a degree of isolation since workers can travel further than that especially in dearth situation for robbing opportunity. Drones have been found in other hives more than 5 miles from their origin.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

BEE J said:


> So by isolated you mean at least 3 miles from the nearest beekeeper?


Not quite - even *if *3 miles could be established as the fullest extent of the honeybee's foraging range (but see Frank's post) - that would mean *6 miles *(your 3 miles, and their 3 miles) - and in all directions. But swarms can fly much further than that, and swarms carry mites.

*Crofter*: Post #49 deserves more than a *"like"* !

Fully agree - that's the kind of post which deserves to be printed out and stapled onto the notice-board of every beekeeping association.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> So mites thrive in some areas better than others?


Very simplistically - density of the mites is varying - place to a place.
The higher the density - the less likelihood of you getting away with treatment-free approach.
Why is the density varying?
It is a multivariable thing and out of context here.

But also the bee susceptibility to the mites is varying - place to a place.
This is a second overlay on the picture.

Very well there are other overlays that contribute to the bee survival picture.

In short - remember this cliché "all beekeeping is local"?
Now start applying this cliché in practice.
This cliché includes the mites too.

So - forget that "treatment free hive" idea.
Its a factor in the general survival picture but a secondary one.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

I know I may have to deal with mites in the future, but people have been keeping bees long before chemical sprays. Is their a natural way to treat mites?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> I know I may have to deal with mites in the future, but people have been keeping bees long before chemical sprays. Is their a natural way to treat mites?


Sounds like you need to study up.
Google and read on the mite subject.
I, for one, need to go out and prune my apple trees now.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Sounds like you need to study up.
> Google and read on the mite subject.
> I, for one, need to go out and prune my apple trees now.


Thanks, Greg!!! I did my pruning a month or two ago (I'm in the south) and the trees are flowering now! Have fun... it's therapeutic.

Keep Buzzing, BEEJ🐝🐝🐝


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

BEE J said:


> I know I may have to deal with mites in the future, but people have been keeping bees long before chemical sprays. Is their a natural way to treat mites?


Yes they have, but those people did not have to deal with mites.

I am unsure when mites actually entered the picture but I would hazard a guess that there are some beekeepers on this forum who still remember the "good ole days" when they did not have mites. Mites are a new problem, so when you go back to 'long before chemical sprays' you also go back to pre-mite beekeeping.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

ursa_minor said:


> I am unsure when mites actually entered the picture ...


FWIW - the Varroa mite was first identified in 1904, and recognised as being a parasite of Apis Cerana in the late 1940s, Varroa were first found on imported European honeybees in Hong Kong and Singapore during 1963, and spread throughout Asia during the subsequent decade. They appeared in Europe and South America in the 1970's, and were first detected in the U.S. in 1987.



> ... but I would hazard a guess that there are some beekeepers on this forum who still remember the "good ole days" when they did not have mites.


Indeed - I started as a schoolboy in 1959: there wasn't anything remotely problematic like Varroa in those days. This problem came as a helkuva shock to me when I returned to beekeeping following retirement. Well - that, and the cost of woodenware. 
LJ


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

little_john said:


> FWIW - the Varroa mite was first identified in 1904, and recognised as being a parasite of Apis Cerana in the late 1940s, Varroa were first found on imported European honeybees in Hong Kong and Singapore during 1963, and spread throughout Asia during the subsequent decade. They appeared in Europe and South America in the 1970's, and were first detected in the U.S. in 1987.
> 
> 
> Indeed - I started as a schoolboy in 1959: there wasn't anything remotely problematic like Varroa in those days. This problem came as a helkuva shock to me when I returned to beekeeping following retirement. Well - that, and the cost of woodenware.
> LJ


Great information! NO Kidding about the cost of materials! Stuff at Lowe's jumped ALOT in the past few years.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> Yes they have, but those people did not have to deal with mites.
> 
> I am unsure when mites actually entered the picture but I would hazard a guess that there are some beekeepers on this forum who still remember the "good ole days" when they did not have mites. Mites are a new problem, so when you go back to 'long before chemical sprays' you also go back to pre-mite beekeeping.


I didn't fully realize that V-mites are a more recent problem. I still do belive managment over chemicals is the best way to go, though. Many of are hero's are treatment free beekeepers like: Fedor Lazutin, Dr.Leo, and Sam Comfort (I think Michael Bush too). What's your opion of TF beekeeping? 

Thanks, BEEJ


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

BEE J said:


> I didn't fully realize that V-mites are a more recent problem. I still do belive managment over chemicals is the best way to go, though. Many of are hero's are treatment free beekeepers like: Fedor Lazutin, Dr.Leo, and Sam Comfort (I think Michael Bush too). What's your opion of TF beekeeping?
> 
> Thanks, BEEJ


You are not preaching to the choir here! Many here are familiar with the operations of some of your heroes and all is not as rosy as projected. Some management systems can manage with little chemical treatment but the people who buy their bees mostly find that they cannot.

Give it a try; you may find that it takes more than the power of positive thinking. To many here, your words are very familiar! Only a very small percentage of entrants are still at it treatment free beyond a few years. That is not opinion; that is the reality.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

BEE J said:


> What's your opion of TF beekeeping?


Only doable in certain areas, which is something those so called TF heroes fail to make clear to new beekeepers. This results in many losses for new beeks, many disappointments and costs they could avoid if the TF crowd was a little more forthcoming in how hard and how select it is to be TF. 

None of those men are my heroes, they know a lot, but they also, IMO skim over some of the real truths about the ability to be TF and make it seem simple, easy and something everyone can do when it is quite the opposite for some.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> Only doable in certain areas, which is something those so called TF heroes fail to make clear to new beekeepers. This results in many losses for new beeks, many disappointments and costs they could avoid if the TF crowd was a little more forthcoming in how hard and how select it is to be TF.
> 
> None of those men are my heroes, they know a lot, but they also, IMO skim over some of the real truths about the ability to be TF and make it seem simple, easy and something everyone can do when it is quite the opposite for some.


Couldn't that be said about beekeeping all together, though? I mean even if you do everything acocurding to industrial standards may the same results still happen? 

I do not want to cause a disputation (and I appreciate you relating to your base knowledge ) but rather am seeking to encourage us to really look more philosphically at this. Facts are important but they are sometimes interperated to make a incorrect conclusion. Are models or worldview help of decide what information is important to us and omit what is not. What about the other creatures God made? Man has tamed some of them as well.

I have experience with a few different types of livestock. Sheep are suspectable to barber-pole worm and meds are recommended. But we didn't do what conventional wisdom tells us to do and we do not turn back because of some others who have failed. We did see some of are hero's (like Joel Salatin, Alan Savory, and so many more) preaching that we should work with Creation and allow the animals to live and thrive by keeping them naturally. We listened to them and we now, by managing them correctly (moving every 3 days) break the worms life-cycle and we have never had a problem!

Another fact for us is that bees live treatment free in the wild all over the world. How do we know that TF is only doable in some areas? Is beekeeping only doable in some areas? Why is the colony getting over run by these mites and diseases anyway? Does that happen in nature? Probably so, but maybe there is a balance there. Maybe naturally these *pests* are just cleaning out a weak colony from a place so a stronger one can have a home? 

We need to ask these questions. We need to ask "*WHAT IS* *CAUSING THIS TO HAPPEN?" *

Think with me on these ideas and let's discuss them together. What is your model or worldview you will be using to sort important facts? Is it a good one? Then bring your set of practical info and everybody else can sort through it with their own model! I hope you understand what I am getting at here! Let's look for the cause. Let's disscuss what "glasses" we are looking at the world through. 

THANK SO MUCH!!!, BEEJ


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

BEE J said:


> Think with me on these ideas and let's discuss them together. What is your model or worldview you will be using to sort important facts? Is it a good one?


My world view is excellent actually. But thanks, no, I have read many many threads on TF and there is nothing new to discuss.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> . Let's disscuss what "glasses" we are looking at the world through.


BEE J,
Many of us have been through with this already - just so you know.
I am not going to search and pull up those discussions again.

You just go ahead and try this TF thing.
Since you don't show your location at your profile (you should), I have no clue of your success likelihood.
Some known beekeeping locations have shown good TF potential.
Most other locations are rather TF prohibitive.
Start with researching your location in this context.

Something to keep in mind - many a new beekeeper manage to kill their bees anyway (mites or not mites). Thus, it is a good idea to try keep the bees alive conventionally. Once that is worked out - you are much better set to try the non-conventional ways.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

BEE J,
There are years of threads on here about TF.
Lots from people who tried it, some from above that recorded on here their journey.
I would suggest you read and read some more. Also read WHY people treat their Bees.
And also read about migratory commercial bee keeping and bees sold in packages and where they come from.... All this is helping to spread the Mites


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> My world view is excellent actually. But thanks, no, I have read many many threads on TF and there is nothing new to discuss.


I understand, thanks anyway. If this beekeeping hobby get's going I want to let you know how it goes! I hope I didn't cause any hard feelings. Thanks ursa! (Nice cow picture on profile I was thinking about changing mine)!


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> BEE J,
> Many of us have been through with this already - just so you know.
> I am not going to search and pull up those discussions again.
> 
> ...


Thanks Greg! I realize that I really took everyone down a rabbit trail and have strayed from the original topic (which Ya'll answered)!!! I plan to tell you how it goes. P.S I do show the state I'm in but am not ready to give away more sensitive information  for now. I'm in southern VA zone 7a.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Tigger19687 said:


> BEE J,
> There are years of threads on here about TF.
> Lots from people who tried it, some from above that recorded on here their journey.
> I would suggest you read and read some more. Also read WHY people treat their Bees.
> And also read about migratory commercial bee keeping and bees sold in packages and where they come from.... All this is helping to spread the Mites


Good to know. Thanks Tigger!


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

BEE J said:


> ! I hope I didn't cause any hard feelings.


Nope, all is good.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Couldn't that be said about beekeeping all together, though?


Exactly. Plenty of us have tried treating with just as poor results...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Michael Bush said:


> Exactly. Plenty of us have tried treating with just as poor results...


Which just points out that many people are *unwilling/unable* to learn proper mite management (which may include proper treatment) for their own context.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Michael Bush said:


> Exactly. Plenty of us have tried treating with just as poor results...


Michael, I can't belive you commented on my thread... I'm a BIG fan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I couldn't remember if you were treatment-free until I looked at your book. What's your view on my post #64? Am I missing somthing or did I hid the nail on the head, so to speak. Are Dr.Leo, Lazutin, Sam comfort, and the rest of the treatment-free club preaching that their methods are doable for everyone when no-spray is only practical in some *specific areas?* I respect all these good beekeepers responses and wanted to hear your view as well. 🙂


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Which just points out that many people are *unwilling/unable* to learn proper mite management


If "proper" mite management is putting poisons in my hive, you are right. I am unwilling.



> What's your view on my post #64? Am I missing somthing or did I hid the nail on the head,


That was my point. Everyone gets different results for any manipulation in beekeeping. I can only speak to what my experience is. I can't speak to other's experience. I look at the BIP numbers every year and I don't see a significant difference in survival rates for treated and untreated.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Michael Bush said:


> If "proper" mite management is putting poisons in my hive, you are right. I am unwilling.


What are your thoughts on thermal? 

Never seen it mentioned in anything I have read by you. Though you did have an 18 year head start posting to this forum...


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