# To Treat or Not To Treat?



## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

I am on the conservative side of medicating, meaning Yes! medicate. I have a 78 year old acquaintance who is serious about medicating with comaphous, terimycin grease patties and menthol for the fall. He hasn't lost a hive in 10 years. He also regularly makes a huge surplus of honey. One of his hives year before last made over 18 supers. I myself using this rigorous course of medicating have pulled 13 from my strongest hive this year. If you want to keep bees alive, medicate. Another extreemly important treatment is the feeding of fumagilin-b in both the fall and the spring. It will really increase your honey production.

Medicate, keep your bees alive until next spring so that they can make you lots of honey. Dead bees will not make a drop of honey, guaranteed.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I've never treated my bees with anything. I've never lost a colony, unless I traded or sold it (someone once stole one hive). I do have Varroa mites, at least since I relocated here to the Tucson, Arizona area (a little more than ten years ago now). I have never done any "mite counts", I take a close look when I'm examining my hives, sometimes I see a few mites on bees, sometimes on drone pupae, sometimes I can't find any.

Recently I began using small-cell foundation, at first, just beeswax, now, more recently, including small-cell plastic foundation, and HSC small-cell plastic comb. I did not switch to small-cell with any perceived need to increase mite tolerance in my bees, but just because the smaller cells had a stronger visual appeal to me and I thought it might produce more and smaller bees. I wanted to see if it would. I have not yet made a determination of what small-cell has done or not done.

I love keeping bees, just to work with them and watch them work. I sometimes harvest some honey, but it is not the reason I keep bees. If parasitic mites, or other bee disease, or combination were to kill my colonies I would be very sad, but I would try again. So far, my biggest problems have been the occasional queenless colony (I keep several nucs available for a quick combine that remedies this situation), and this year has been so bad I have even been forced to feed some of my nucs to keep them from starving (I usually use frames of honey, but this year the honey has been in short supply). I certainly hope we get some Winter rain (we usually do), then the bees can start building up for our Spring mesquite honeyflow. Last Fall/Winter many of my hives began to grow quite light, but before Spring had arrived most had regained much of their weight.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

CSbees said:


> I am on the conservative side of medicating, meaning Yes! medicate. I have a 78 year old acquaintance who is serious about medicating with comaphous, terimycin grease patties and menthol for the fall. He hasn't lost a hive in 10 years. He also regularly makes a huge surplus of honey. One of his hives year before last made over 18 supers. I myself using this rigorous course of medicating have pulled 13 from my strongest hive this year. If you want to keep bees alive, medicate. Another extreemly important treatment is the feeding of fumagilin-b in both the fall and the spring. It will really increase your honey production.
> 
> Medicate, keep your bees alive until next spring so that they can make you lots of honey. Dead bees will not make a drop of honey, guaranteed.


I can appreciate the desire to have live bees in your hives come spring, but at what cost? According to your list of treatments above, at all cost. You're filling your hives and bees with a barrage of chemicals and drugs that, in the short term, will do what appears to be good and healthy. But history shows a very ugly beast that rears its head before too long. Read the journals that have articles about the effects of comaphous on bees and wax. Same goes for prophylactic treatment of fumagilin-b. The handwriting has been on the wall for several years now. I hope you would catch the vision of doing everything you can to treat as little as possible and only when you absolutely have to. There are so many other options available now that one needn't use such chemicals. You'll really be doing yourself and bees a favor in the long run.

I don't expect a 78 year old beekeeper to be pushing anything other than what they've been doing. Times are changing and most "old timers" aren't interested in changing with it.

Regards,
Barry


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

ditto for the "no" on checkmite. And for terramycin, Would you take antibiotics willy nilly? "antibiotic resistant bacteria" says it all. 

Fumagillin-B however is another story in my opinion.

To not threat, I would do more mite surveying.

OA tickle has a recommended per year limit, I believe. You might want to read up on it. Seems if you do it too often it kills the bees. 

There are some big operators that use Apilife-Var or Apigaurd. 
Formic Acid works great (says the research), just don't breath or touch it.
Either one of those treatments will take care of your tracheal mites at the same time. 

Maverick is illegal and a good way to poison your comb and make it completely useless. Apistan gives a more reliable dose, only if you remove all 800 or so of those strips when directed. Also resistance may develop.

I may not keep that many bees, but the research on these treatments comes from mounds of experience. Like Barry says, check out the research and keep up with the current knowledge.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

MichaelW said:


> ditto for the "no" on checkmite. And for terramycin, Would you take antibiotics willy nilly? "antibiotic resistant bacteria" says it all.


Sorry, you're right. I meant terramycin, not Fumagillin-B

- Barry


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## Tim Hall (Sep 14, 2007)

MichaelW said:


> ditto for the "no" on checkmite. And for terramycin, Would you take antibiotics willy nilly? "antibiotic resistant bacteria" says it all.


Yesterday the CDC released figures estimating that more people die of MRSA (antibiotic resistant staph) than AIDS. A year ago I was laid up in an isolated wing of a hospital with an MRSA infection for a week. I personally consider myself lucky to have recovered...it definitely changes your perspective on modern medicine and chemical culture.


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

I also am friends with another older beekeeper who uses no treatments also. I feel torn between the two drastically different, but seemingly effective styles. This man does not treat for mites or the other diseases and has about a 1% loss rate over winter. Is this pretty good? I am trying the risky and conservative routes this year with different hives and will try to develop my own style and personal preferences on keeping bees and making honey.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

1% is great. I'd say both those fellows really know how to keep bees. He probably keeps his bees so healthy through management they take care of the pests on their own. 

As for that 78 year old acquaintance of yours, I still listen real hard when he speaks about bees. So does everyone else. He knows way more about bees than I do. I just don't use the same treatments, well except for the Fumadil-B.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Contents removed by Dave W.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I'm going into my third or fourth winter no treatments, I'll probably lose 30% or more which I lost even when I was using Apistan, and have lost a few already. I easily made up the loses last year with bait hives made from the dead outs combs.
And I'm proud to be selling over a ton of pure clean honey with no contamination.


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## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

I do not treat with anything. I use pure Russian bees, replace comb that is very dark, or 4 or 5 years old, use screen bottom boards, etc. 

I have not even been checking for mite levels. However, I will start checking for mite levels in the summer and fall. When the mite levels reach the threshold level, I will treat the colony with powered sugar. Using drone comb to control mites is also a good idea; however, if I miss the date to freeze the comb, I will be raising mites instead of killing them.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

sqkcrk:

First, we need some more information.

What sort of samples were taken? Powdered-sugar shakes? Ether rolls? Twenty-four hour drop counts?

How many bees were included in each sample? For instance, 25 mites from 1,000 bees doesn't sound too terrible, but 25 mites from 25 bees or even from 100 bees sounds pretty high, to me.

Are the numbers of mites increasing, decreasing, or stable?

Then, do you still have time to perform any rescue treatments? What I mean is, my bees ceased rearing brood weeks ago. Any damage that has been done by the mites to the overwintering bees has been done. I doubt any form of treatment on bees in my area that will be staying in my area for the winter would have any effect on survival of the colonies.


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## Panhandle Bee man (Oct 22, 2003)

sqkcrk,

From my research, you should only do 1 treatment of OA per year, due to kidney damage to the bees. The mite counts you got were about what I would expect from OA dribbled hives about a year from the last treatment. You can treat again with OA (the hives are probably broodless or close to it), or wait until spring and treat with either Thymol product. If so inclined every 3-4 years you can use fluvinate (apistan) as the resistant mites will be gone. With using OA, you may experience a slightly higher colony loss, however the survivors will be heathy, brood combs should be uncontaminated, and you should be able to regain the losses with robust early splits. I don't recommend the vapor treatment with the number of hives you have, too much work, too many variables, and wildly different results. 

CSBees,
A lot of beekeepers tried the path your friend uses. The end result, was queens that quickly lost fertility, dead bee hives, and brood combs that had to be burned. I know one beekeeper that had to replace one million brood combs. It made quite a pile, and streched over several acres. The method your friend uses works but only for a short time, the mites quickly become resistant to it, the bees don't, and the combs are like a sponge for the stuff.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Kieck said:


> sqkcrk:
> 
> First, we need some more information.
> 
> ...


Approx. 20 mites from a couple hundred bees gathered in a plastic bag and dosed w/ alcohol. No sampling previously done this year. 

I still have brood in most of my colonies. Maybe 2 or three frames w/ lots of brood down to one frame w/ little brood and everything in between. Variety man, variety.

I'm sure effective treatment would help some, maybe many. What shoulod I spend my money on?


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

for an either roll test, 15-38 mites is the economic threshold where treatment is recommended in southeast. Where are you at? Not sure about alcohol but the methods should be similar. So 20 could be a toss up, but are your numbers reflective of each yard?

Here's a recent scientific review of OA in Apidilogie. I'm pretty sure its free access. If not let me know and I'll find something else.
http://publish.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/pdf/2006/01/M6010.pdf
I've never used OA myself. But they say it only works really well during the broodless period in autumn and winter.
(not recommending an illegal treatment, just stating the facts)

To take care of Varroa and Tracheal at the same time, use either a Thymol product or Formic Acid. I noticed this year that it costs about the same to treat a hive either with Menthol or Apilife-Var. Apiguard in tubs is resonable and only requires two trips to hives. I'm happy with these on my roughly 20 hives for the last 3 years.

To really get costs down some people buy Formic Acid at a chemical store, HOWEVER, if you don't mix it right it can be very bad. Make sure you know what your doing if you go that route. Many beeks have burned their skin and lungs(permanent damage?) using formic acid. Its possible to get burned with either the legal or illegal method.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

sqkcrk-

The numbers sound high enough that I'd be concerned, too, but I still wish we had some idea if those numbers are rising, falling, or stable. ("If wishes were horses, beggars would ride," huh?)

Having brood is good, in your case.

How about the overall condition of these hives, other than the mites? Good stores or light? Lots of bees, or smaller-than-you'd-like-to-see-for-the-type-of-bees-you-have numbers for overwintering? How about damaged bees from the mites?

I think, based on timing, Apistan and Checkmite might be "out" as possible treatments for you. Would you have enough opportunity to properly treat, given the time requirements for those products? Are the daytime temperatures high enough and likely to stay high enough to try ApiLife VAR or formic acid (Mite Away II)?

(I cannot make recommendations to use products that are not labeled for use in bee hives.)

Personally, if the hives look good other than the mite loads, I would consider not treating at this point. I'm sure at least some other beekeepers will disagree with me about that.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Kieck said:


> sqkcrk
> Personally, if the hives look good other than the mite loads, I would consider not treating at this point. I'm sure at least some other beekeepers will disagree with me about that.


Yes, they look good with plenty of bees and plenty of honey for them to eat. I'll be taking them to SC in about 3 or 4 weeks. So, if I wanted to treat them, I'll have good conditions there.

I understand my friends who believe that doing something to kill a percentage of the mites helps the colony survival rate, so I will be treating soon w/ OA. Probably before I go to SC. I may treat there w/ formic or Apilife Var. Depending on what I hear at the Empire State Honey Producers Association meeting, Nov. 9 and 10, I may use something other than noted here. So far I'm not in a hurry.


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## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

CSbees said:


> I also am friends with another older beekeeper who uses no treatments also. I feel torn between the two drastically different, but seemingly effective styles. This man does not treat for mites or the other diseases and has about a 1% loss rate over winter. Is this pretty good? I am trying the risky and conservative routes this year with different hives and will try to develop my own style and personal preferences on keeping bees and making honey.


if he is experiencing a 1% loss and he isnt treating this is the guy you need to be hanging out with and learning most people who treat cant claim that low of a loss


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> I understand my friends who believe that doing something to kill a percentage of the mites helps the colony survival rate, so I will be treating soon w/ OA. -sqkcrk


I've never used OA, so I don't feel comfortable commenting on its effectiveness.

I sometimes feel, too, that "doing something" is better than "doing nothing." Then again, I'll often wonder later if it really made much difference, or if it just made _me_ feel better.

Good luck!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What do you all think about multiple treatments? Such as OA syrup dribble, formics acid pads, a layer of newspaper w/ sugar on it and a shot of fumagilan on the sugar?

I asked Nic Calderone about using Apistan strips and Checkmite strips at the same time or one after the other, during the winter, thinking that what one strip didn't kill maybe the other would. He didn't think that that was a good idea because of the potential problems from unknown chemical interactions.

I have friends who have Apistan strips that they have never taken out of their hives and those hives often seem to be the survivors. So, what does that say about the strips?


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

I am a huge fan of fumigilin-b. It has really increased my honey production.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> I have friends who have Apistan strips that they have never taken out of their hives and those hives often seem to be the survivors. So, what does that say about the strips?


I'm not sure what it says about the strips but I do know what it says about the friends. And since my momma told me if I couldn't say anything nice about folks, just don't say anything at all............

Its the surest way to create apistan resistant mites. And then your bees can infest your neighbor's bees with those mites.


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