# Making formic acid fume board



## AstroZomBEE (Aug 1, 2006)

Laketrout, I tried to PM you, but alas, your mailbox is full.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I made some room Astro !!!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

FA is legal only in the approved forms....previously MiteAwayII pads, now the quickstrips.

Many beekeepers have gotten in trouble for using forumlations of approved miticides that were not approved specifically for bees (fluvalinate, coumaphos).

deknow


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Formic acid has been approved for a miticide with the quick strips its formic acid not some other nasty chemical like coumaphos , wouldn't it seem safer to use something like formic thats been approved , I understand its not in the same approved product , to me it seems better than some of are other alternatives , aren't there more using it this way .


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How are you going to apply the FA to the fume board?
How long r u going to leave the fume board on?
How r u going to safely handle the FA so you don't hurt yourself topically or in your lungs?


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

There treating a cotton absorbent pad with formic diluted with water to help slow down the fuming of the formic , its left on for one day and in that time the fumes will be gone in the pad , retreat the pad and move the board to another hive . I assume there using rubber gloves and a respirator while handling the formic acid . I don't have all the answers trying to learn more here.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

never used it but this gives you everything you need to treat using formic outside of the govt. seal of approval.

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/FAFumigat.pdf


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Mike thanks for finding the info , I browsed the web and wasn't able to find much at all on the FA fume boards , good complete report . Whats everyone's take on this , sounds like another weapon in the fight with varroa .


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

You may be interests in Randy Oliver's comments on formic acid application:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-learning-curve-part-3-the-natural-miticides/
(approximately at the middle of the page)


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Here is a pretty full discussion of it including pics in another thread

http://www.nzbees.net/forum/threads/using-a-formic-acid-fumigator.615/


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

More good reports , I don't see the down side to the fume board , one day treatment , kills mites in capped brood ,inexpensive , it would be nice if it was avail. in a 50% diluted form .Of the options that we have available to us FA and OA both in the grey area of use the FA does a better job of mites in capped brood why isn't it used more , the only down side I can see is finding the formic acid in small quantities .


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

"I don't see the down side to the fume board"

A fine of up to $25,000 or one year in jail for each use sounds like a down side to me. What you are suggesting is against the law.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Richard Cryberg said:


> A fine of up to $25,000 or one year in jail for each use


Do you have a reference you can link for that information?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is one site from the University of Florida referencing EPA penalties for violations of the law regarding pesticides:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pi168

Note there are different levels of penalties for "private" and "commercial" applicators, and different levels of penalties for "unintentional" and "knowingly" violations.


And a law firm's page on FIFRA FAQs:
http://www.lawbc.com/knowledge-resources/faq-fifra/


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Does FIFRA apply to nonpesticide materials used as pest control?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm pretty sure you can spray soapy water on plants, for instance, with the intention of killing bugs, without violating FIFRA. 


> Part 182 - Substance generally recognized as safe
> 
> http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/bluebook/chapter1.html


I don't know the extent of what all those substances are, though.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Does FIFRA apply to nonpesticide materials used as pest control?


If you use it to kill living things covered under FIFRA it is by definition a pesticide. If it is not registered by EPA for that use and does not come in a container with a label describing that use and how to apply the material it is illegal. Example: It is legal to add sodium borate to laundry detergent to help in dirt removal when you wash clothes. It is illegal to add sodium borate to your laundry detergent to kill insects such as bed bugs that might be in your clothes.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

laketrout said:


> Mike thanks for finding the info , I browsed the web and wasn't able to find much at all on the FA fume boards , good complete report .


the second and third page of the report tell you how to make the fume board, so I'm not to sure what else you would need to know about the fume board??:scratch:


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Richard Cryberg said:


> If you use it to kill living things covered under FIFRA it is by definition a pesticide.


That can't be true.

As Graham stated...."I'm pretty sure you can spray soapy water on plants, for instance, with the intention of killing bugs, without violating FIFRA."


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

if the west Virginia link didn't have enough information here is a link that will keep you reading for awhile, and they will sell you reusable pads.

http://www.mitegone.com/


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## Belewsboy (Jun 6, 2012)

The very first time I treated my hives, I used the Formic process as described in the UWV documents linked above. I used the mix and made the boards according to their specs. It was pretty easy if you don't mind handling the acid. Very quick, very cheap and worked well. I did however lose a queen but cannot say with any certainty it was due to the treatment even though there is that chance with a Formic Fume board. You have to add HBH to the mix which supposedly prevents balling of the queen. If I were to treat this way again, I would bump up the dose of HBH for insurance.
I have since purchased one of SNL's Varrox Oxalic tools and find it easier and very effective. No chance of losing a queen, a wider temperature range for treatment and you don't have jars of Formic sitting around. In fact I've got a bunch of Formic I've been trying to find a good way to dispose of!


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I guess the big difference that I like is the FA gets the mites in the capped brood that the oa doesn't .

Wildbranch , I was thanking you for the info from the report you found on the fume board subject , and how I wasn't finding anything on my search's , sorry for the misunderstanding .

Richard , were in a tough predicament with whats legal and what isn't with mite treatments , are you suggesting oa is any more legal than formic which is a legal substance in purchased quick strips .


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Here is a link to the mite be gone pad Co. and the legal stuff they ran into , dated 2009 . Line #4 is interesting but not conclusive I'm sure.

http://www.mitegone.com/pdfpages/Formic Acid and MG in USA.pdf


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

laketrout said:


> I guess the big difference that I like is the FA gets the mites in the capped brood that the oa doesn't .


That's why you use OA in the broodless period or over a three week period to catch the mites as they are emerging with the bee(s)


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

laketrout said:


> Wildbranch , I was thanking you for the info from the report you found on the fume board subject , and how I wasn't finding anything on my search's , sorry for the misunderstanding .


 I misread what you wrote, but complicating the matter is the software that reads the article isn't working on my pc, so I had to go look at my folder on the subject, I was hoping they hadn't changed the information. The second link I found when I looked in my folder so all worked out in the end. good luck if you decide to try it, I was going to when they did away with the old formic pads as I have no trust in the MAQS, but I did use them on some hives with honey supers on without losing any queens. If you have any question on the Mitebegone infromation the person that sells the stuff posts every once in a while on bee-l, so if you find one of his old post's you can send him a PM.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Wild, No problem , Thanks again for the links you found , good luck with the evil mites , hope we all can keep are bee's alive .


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

So whats everyones take on the way to go here is it making your own formic acid pads or vaporizing OA for mites , pro's and con's .

I'm thinking both could come in to play , use the formic and get the mites in capped brood , if temps get to cold use the oa .


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I tried the Formic Acid pads when they were relatively new. They did a great job killing the mites, both phoretic and in capped cells. But I found them to be very rough on the queens, brood, and bees as well if the temperature and ventilation are not just right. Maybe the strips are better now, never tried them. Just use caution if you are mixing up your own homemade concoction, it's strong stuff.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

laketrout said:


> So whats everyones take on the way to go here


My take is I only use approved chemicals in the approved application method. As long as the Govt. gives me the tools to control mites, I'll spend the money and buy the approved chemicals (even though the price some times seems high) and use them pretty much as they direct. When the govt doesn't give me the tools to control mites to keep my bees alive, all bets are off and I'll do what I need to do. You have to decide for yourself, that's we all have done.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

My take is that someone smarter than me with knowledge of the proper concentration of formic and a proven delivery device has already done the work for me and my buying the approved product is me paying them for the work they did. Handling MAQS is bad enough w/out having to handle the raw product.

I know guys who have burned holes in their fingers because of a pin hole in a rubber glove. No thanks.

OA dribble is another thing entirely. That has been shown to me to be safe to use and not too complicated to mix and apply and the amount that gets applied doesn't seem to have to be so exact as to work well. That is something I need to add to my arsenal.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

Just because you can do it doesn't make it "legal".......I think what you are saying is that no one is likely to go the trouble to prosecute you for spraying soapy water on plants.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

laketrout said:


> I'm thinking both could come in to play , use the formic and get the mites in capped brood , if temps get to cold use the oa .


That is exactly what is recommended to use here in Germany. Just after harvesting the honey from the main flow, Formic acid is used, mostly in a commercial "Liebig dispenser" http://www.thebeebusiness.co.uk/liebig.php . Then in a brood less period in winter Oxalic acid is used (dribbled). Of course mites numbers should be monitored.


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