# Sticky  SW Michigan Horizontal Hives - Sans Treatments



## squarepeg

many thanks for starting the thread nick.

we are looking forward to hearing about the trapping and beyond.

here's wishing you a successful 2019!


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## GregB

nickhefferan said:


> ...
> I am a recovering package-buying beekeeper.
> Three years of doing that,* three years of Georgia bees dying *for various reasons. PSM, SHB, mice, condensation, and bad beekeeping too I'm sure.
> I'm ready to try something different this time.
> 
> *I have 8 swarm traps built......*
> -Nick


Nick, 

Sounds like you should have some used equipment on hand due to die outs.
Maybe even old, black combs - great if so (use them in traps).

If you want to maximize your trapping returns, set out the used boxes.
Convert them into traps (even if temporarily).
Set the entire empty hives out - should work just as well.
The most used boxes will make the best traps. 

OK, you already built spunky, brand-new traps - I get that.
Might as well keep at least some at home and use for nucs/splits for a season (this is called - "priming").
It will be a mistake to put newly built trap boxes out while keeping used boxes at home.

I wish I had used boxes the first year I went out swarm trapping.
0% success using the new boxes (did not matter how well I baited them with LGO).

Today all of my traps are well used and well propolized - much better success.
All of them are now well primed as I held bees in them, even if few weeks only.

Good luck and have fun!

PS: ah yes, if still keep some used equipment at home, might as well set them up as traps right there;
(backyard corner, under the porch, on the porch, whatever - might get a nice surprise on a muggy Sunday afternoon);


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## JustMutts

Nick
As GregV said, used equipment works the best for swarm traps.
If you need to use brand new traps I read of a trick to make them more appealing to the bees, rub all the interior walls with beeswax until they are covered with a thin layer of wax, the author claimed that bees don't like the smell of new lumber.
Good Luck v


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## GregB

JustMutts said:


> Nick
> ..... rub all the interior walls with beeswax until they are covered with a thin layer of wax.......


If have any slum gum around, just use that for rubbing inside.
Heat gun works great for rubbing in wax (from odfrank).


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## nickhefferan

GregV said:


> JustMutts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nick
> ..... rub all the interior walls with beeswax until they are covered with a thin layer of wax.......
> 
> 
> 
> If have any slum gum around, just use that for rubbing inside.
> Heat gun works great for rubbing in wax (from odfrank).
Click to expand...

Yup! I'm planning on hanging some older used comb in each of the traps, rubbing them with propolis and wax, and sticking in a baggie with LGO on a cloth in it.
I also have plans to do that same baiting to each of the hives themselves.

Hopefully I can get some bees early enough to really get a good jump on the season. I know of a few TF beekeepers in my area (within a couple hours drive) that I should be able to buy queens from in case I end up with nothing but almond bees.


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## Riverderwent

Forty liters. One frame of drawn comb, in the back. The rest foundationless. Four or five drops of lemon grass oil, no more. Hung arm reach height. Used or new box doesn’t make a noticeable difference to me. I use cedar.


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## nickhefferan

Here's what I'll be working with for the upcoming season:







3 4-foot long Top Bar Hives















Two Layens Hives (making them look pretty)















and my swarm boxes.
going to paint them more muted colors so they aren't as loudly on display.


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## GregB

Thanks for the pics!

Comments:

1)minor - those cool house-like gable roofs with asphalt are not very functional and have unnecessary weight built into them; 
you will likely find it for yourself if not already - but be aware, if not already
(unless you already know the stuff and still really, really want those roofs - yes, they are cute); 
I grew around the gable roofs and never made one for myself having a choice (my roofs double as ad-hoc work tables and ad-hoc containers)

2)major - since you decided to run two incompatible hive systems side-by-side, you designed in compatibility issues in your apiary
the up-front incompatibility between your hives (TB vs. Layens) will give you some grief sooner or later;
there is no easy way between your two systems to move the bees and the combs back and forth - not good;
what about catching a swarm into your Layen's trap and putting it into a TBH (because you got no empty Layens handy)?
sooner or later you will really, really want to be able to move resources between your hives easily, quickly, and for any good reason 
(moving a trivial comb/frame from hive A to hive B should be just that - a trivial move; not a major cut-out operation)

3)major, major - have fun, regardless of the details!


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## nickhefferan

GregV said:


> 1)minor - those cool house-like gable roofs with asphalt are not very functional and have unnecessary weight built into them;
> you will likely find it for yourself if not already - but be aware, if not already
> (unless you already know the stuff and still really, really want those roofs - yes, they are cute);
> I grew around the gable roofs and never made one for myself having a choice (my roofs double as ad-hoc work tables and ad-hoc containers)


I have them on hinges now, which is much nicer than when I originally had to lift off the gabled roof on the top bar hive. But yeah, they're heavy.
My wife thinks they look nice though  little bee houses.
Definitely heavy, makes moving the boxes a chore.



GregV said:


> 2)major - since you decided to run two incompatible hive systems side-by-side, you designed in compatibility issues in your apiary
> the up-front incompatibility between your hives (TB vs. Layens) will give you some grief sooner or later;
> there is no easy way between your two systems to move the bees and the combs back and forth - not good;
> what about catching a swarm into your Layen's trap and putting it into a TBH (because you got no empty Layens handy)?
> sooner or later you will really, really want to be able to move resources between your hives easily, quickly, and for any good reason
> (moving a trivial comb/frame from hive A to hive B should be just that - a trivial move; not a major cut-out operation)


I know this will be a sticking point, I really wanted to try out the extra-deep frames because of the winters here, already had built the top bar hives, but thought it was worth trying.
Hopefully I'll be able to expand in one direction over the other and convert fully to one style depending on how they perform.



GregV said:


> 3)major, major - have fun, regardless of the details!


Thanks! I'm planning on enjoying the experience


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## r2t2

Or you could re-work your TBH to be able to take the Layen's frames. Would make a big TBH, but with a follower board, it would be manageable.


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## nickhefferan

r2t2 said:


> Or you could re-work your TBH to be able to take the Layen's frames. Would make a big TBH, but with a follower board, it would be manageable.


You know... I might need to look into doing that. 
The adjustment wouldn't be too ridiculous, and I think it would solve several headaches I could run into down the road.
I'd need to lengthen the sides and the faces, and cut the bars down a bit and add some supports, but it could work..


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## nickhefferan

Just ran through a quick mock up of how I might do a conversion from top bar to Layens, numbers aren't final but I think it could be done somewhat easily.


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## Michael Bush

Try this search on google:
michigan treatment free nucs


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## GregB

nickhefferan said:


> You know... I might need to look into doing that. ..


If looking for work, just go Layens and be done, and don't bother the TBH mish-mash then...
Convert those TBHs into temp hives that are compatible to your Layens, but are very low tech.
Essentially, keep them as simple boxes and nothing fancy - just functional enough to temporarily park a swarm or a split or a nuc.

You see, you do NOT have to run full frames in Layens (on any single level, long hive, for that matter).
You can totally run only the top bars in the Layens (regardless of what purists will say).
Just the same typical TBH procedures apply (keeping the combs straight, etc, etc).

I run just top bars in my horizontals all the time (because that is what I get from my swarm traps).
More often I run hybrid-style top bars with some ad-hoc end bar stapled in (since the wooden scraps pile up anyway and better find some use).
Layens-type hives take both full frames/simple top bars/anything in between; take then in any mix as needed.
In addition, you can (and should anyway) have a top cover cloth and then do NOT need to have you bars touching either.

Any simple, straight stick will do when in the pinch and bees will build off of it (anything can be fixed later when have time and full frames handy).
Any Lang/Dadant frames laying around can be easily repurposed and used as well in your long hives.
Flexibility and forgiveness is the beauty of a long hive.





















View attachment 45403


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## Litsinger

Nick:

Just finished reading this thread, and I look forward to hearing how your swarm traps do this year. It will be swarm season before we know it...

Have a great week.

Russ


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## clong

Nick,

I'm pulling for you. I started with GA packages, then local nucs, now swarms exclusively. The swarms are the only ones to make it through winter. 

For trapping, if you can, try placing a couple of traps near water. Streams, gullies, ponds, whatever you have.

I'll be helping a newbee set up a Layens hive this spring, so I'll be very interested in hearing your experience.


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## nickhefferan

Litsinger said:


> Nick:
> 
> Just finished reading this thread, and I look forward to hearing how your swarm traps do this year. It will be swarm season before we know it...
> 
> Have a great week.
> 
> Russ





clong said:


> Nick,
> 
> I'm pulling for you. I started with GA packages, then local nucs, now swarms exclusively. The swarms are the only ones to make it through winter.
> 
> For trapping, if you can, try placing a couple of traps near water. Streams, gullies, ponds, whatever you have.
> 
> I'll be helping a newbee set up a Layens hive this spring, so I'll be very interested in hearing your experience.



Thanks for the well wishes, folks.

I have a laundry list of things I want to finish up before Spring really... springs, but haven't worked up the gusto to go out to the pole barn and do some cutting. 
Definitely planning to retool the top bar hives into Layens/deeper Layens hives similar to what GregV uses and Matt on YouTube. 
I like the idea of being able to convert from Langstroth to Layens(ish), and potentially back again (for other keepers that don't do Extra-deep hives).

I absolutely will update again as I finish building hives/traps, when I set out the traps, and (hopefully) when they attract new tenants!

-Nick


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## GregB

Hey, I found another brand new Youtube channel - by Bee Boy Bill.
He is all about Layens and is posting good vids.
Leave him a positive comment for his sharing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK4...w03c010c.1548795450917286&feature=em-comments


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## nickhefferan

GregV said:


> Hey, I found another brand new Youtube channel - by Bee Boy Bill.
> He is all about Layens and is posting good vids.
> Leave him a positive comment for his sharing.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK4...w03c010c.1548795450917286&feature=em-comments


Yes! I've really enjoyed his videos as well, they've both (Bill and Matt) produced some great content that has been enjoyable to follow along. 
I'm glad they're both so open about their building process also, it helped me already, and I'm sure it will help others in the future.


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## nickhefferan

Spent some time this weekend converting my KTBH's into Layens-ish beehives.
Going with dimensions similar to what Matt on Youtube and GregV use (19 inches deep), so I'll be able to throw deep conversion frames and side-by-side Mediums into them.

So far, I took the two scrap wood top bar hives, cut them down into usable lumber, and started screwing them back together.







Before








after dismantling them and cutting some of the pieces down to size

and the boxes as they sit so far







still need to make lids, insulate, repaint, etc. but it's a start!
for these I'm going to do the long slot-type entrance that Fedor Lazutin used on his deep hives.


I also disassembled the KTBH nucleus/swarm trap boxes, I'm going to use the wood from them to build more Layens(ish) nuc boxes/swarm traps.
I recently got permission from a few different folks to put up swarm boxes on their property, and I'll be getting those primed and set out soon.


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## Litsinger

Good update, Nick. Swarm season will arrive before you know it- best of luck to you with your trapping efforts.

Russ


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## GregB

nickhefferan said:


> .......
> for these I'm going to do the long slot-type entrance that Fedor Lazutin used on his deep hives.....


Thanks for sharing.

Entrances: 
I now am convinced both upper and lower entrances are of value; 
notice how this time of the year (cold spring in the Upper Mid) they really like the upper entrance and ignore the bottom;
the upper hole is just warmer - less energy spent


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## nickhefferan

GregV said:


> Entrances:
> I now am convinced both upper and lower entrances are of value;
> notice how this time of the year (cold spring in the Upper Mid) they really like the upper entrance and ignore the bottom;
> the upper hole is just warmer - less energy spent


I may have to experiment with that  should be simple enough to drill a hole and put a disc on it.
I have a couple 10-frame lang boxes that I'm considering retrofitting for Layens as well (I think I ought to be able to fit frames warm-way in two deep boxes...)

Going to assemble a ton of frames soon and get some traps hung up within the next couple weeks.


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## BigBlackBirds

nickhefferan said:


> As of right now, I have no bees. I don't plan on buying bees to get them.
> I know some of the orchards near me will bring in commercial hives for pollination. I _know_ these bees will swarm.
> I also live very close to state forest land. I _hope_ there are bees living in those trees that will swarm.
> So, hopefully I'll have things to update this thread with. I'll post when things happen.
> 
> -Nick


You'll do best during blueberry pollination. There'll be some during the cherries and apples but generally not as many. I'd put traps starting around Cranes and move west to lake. Don't expect much east in the woods towards the river. I use to run mating yards within there on purpose to avoid non target drones


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## nickhefferan

BigBlackBirds said:


> You'll do best during blueberry pollination. There'll be some during the cherries and apples but generally not as many. I'd put traps starting around Cranes and move west to lake. Don't expect much east in the woods towards the river. I use to run mating yards within there on purpose to avoid non target drones


Thanks for the first-hand advice B3, I really appreciate it!

I do have permission to place a few traps at a couple of properties west of Hutchins, so I'm going to take advantage of that for sure.
These will probably be some sort of Italian/commerical bee, but they'll still be bees.

I still want to put a few traps out around that forest just in case, I keep thinking if there is anywhere not as impacted by migratory pollination it would be there.
Not expecting much if anything from that, but I figure I have to try. One of the pillars for treatment-free is to try to use locally-grown survivor/feral stock, right?


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## BigBlackBirds

nickhefferan said:


> Thanks for the first-hand advice B3, I really appreciate it!
> 
> I do have permission to place a few traps at a couple of properties west of Hutchins, so I'm going to take advantage of that for sure.
> These will probably be some sort of Italian/commerical bee, but they'll still be bees.
> 
> I still want to put a few traps out around that forest just in case, I keep thinking if there is anywhere not as impacted by migratory pollination it would be there.
> Not expecting much if anything from that, but I figure I have to try. One of the pillars for treatment-free is to try to use locally-grown survivor/feral stock, right?


Use to have a significant yard on the south side of Hutchins but that was a decade ago and not 100% sure if the guys we gave it to still use it or not. There is a big commercial yard just west of the lake off 62nd. If you go north and cross 89, there are two other big commercial yards between there and the river also. Plus there's another one directly across the river. 

i did have a number of yards up against the state land to the east of you. out around the gun club and then south down to 118th. those were mainly setup for staging to pollination. you'll find some commercial yards scattered in there now though but more so over around the Todd farm.

if you follow the state ground south towards pullman/bloomingdale, etc you'll just run into more commercial yards. and there are commercial yards on the east side of the forest along the m40 corridor into Holland. personally i'd concentrate on putting camoflagued traps inside the forest along the river bottom. that will give you the most buffering for a potential feral colony that is more than an escapee from a commercial colony


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## GregB

nickhefferan said:


> ...
> I have a couple 10-frame lang boxes that I'm considering retrofitting for Layens as well (I think I ought to be able to fit frames warm-way in two deep boxes...).


This is exactly how I use 10-fram Lang boxes - dropping Layens style frames in - the "short-way" (warm-way you called it).
Near perfect fit.


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## Gray Goose

nickhefferan said:


> Here's what I'll be working with for the upcoming season:
> View attachment 45171
> 
> 3 4-foot long Top Bar Hives
> 
> View attachment 45173
> 
> View attachment 45175
> 
> Two Layens Hives (making them look pretty)
> 
> View attachment 45177
> 
> View attachment 45179
> 
> and my swarm boxes.
> going to paint them more muted colors so they aren't as loudly on display.


Nice Picks Nick. where is SW Mi are you? the holes in the TB bait boxes looks kind or small. Do you have enough old wax and propolis to warm and smear inside?
Let us know how it goes.
GG


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## nickhefferan

Gray Goose said:


> Nice Picks Nick. where is SW Mi are you? the holes in the TB bait boxes looks kind or small. Do you have enough old wax and propolis to warm and smear inside?
> Let us know how it goes.
> GG


Down in Fennville: Southwest of Grand Rapids, South of Holland, Northwest of Kalamazoo.

This past weekend I tore apart the Top Bar nucs (all of my top bar equipment in general) to make more that are Layens dimensions, but I had been planning on enlarging the entrances before putting them out 

I have old brood comb from a few dead outs that I've had, and I've got plans to do a bit of "painting" with some of the less intact bits.
thanks GG!


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## Gray Goose

nickhefferan said:


> Down in Fennville: Southwest of Grand Rapids, South of Holland, Northwest of Kalamazoo.
> 
> This past weekend I tore apart the Top Bar nucs (all of my top bar equipment in general) to make more that are Layens dimensions, but I had been planning on enlarging the entrances before putting them out
> 
> I have old brood comb from a few dead outs that I've had, and I've got plans to do a bit of "painting" with some of the less intact bits.
> thanks GG!


I am just north of Grand Rapids, so we are almost neighbors. good luck trapping. I have some scout bees flying around a trap already , so get them out soon. If you get too many swarms let me know I can hive a few 
GG


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## GregB

nickhefferan said:


> .........I've got plans to do a bit of "painting" with some of the less intact bits.
> thanks GG!


Hey, a heat gun works great for wax/propolise/slum gum "painting".
The idea I got from odfrank's writings and tested last summer.


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> .. I have some scout bees flying around a trap already..
> GG


Gee, you guys really do have it mild down in MI; must be the lake effect.
The same latitude as me - but we have it pretty harsh/continental on this side of the pond.
Too early to talk of any scouting/trapping as of yet.
I just saw first incoming pollen/propolise. Nothing significant. Freezing nights.


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## nickhefferan

Picked up 78 used Medium Langstroth frames to use in my hives this weekend. 







Good craigslist find from a somewhat local beekeeper.

And I added collars to the swarm traps so that they all can work with 19" frames if needed







Nice side effect of the collars is now the traps have handles 
I also drilled entrance holes so that I can use disc entrances I just got, going to screen the entrance slots I had originally made.
(stapled a nail across the back of the entrance so other critters cant get in)

I need to paint the camouflage patterns on the traps, rig up some frames, bait them, and set them out. 
Hopefully I can do that within the week.


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## nickhefferan

Quick update:
Nucleus/swarm boxes are just about ready for paint now.
I made telescoping lids for each, and covered those with coroplast/corex/corrugated plastic/political signs for extra weatherproofing.

Six of them so far.









here's a shot of the corrugated plastic covers on the smaller boxes.









Five of the swarm boxes I will paint with a camouflage pattern and place in different forested spots out of sight, but easy for me to monitor.
The last (and largest) one will be placed at an orchard, not really out of sight.
Each will get a disc entrance so I can seal 'em up nice and easy to transport.


I have four larger permanent hives in various states of in-progress (14 to 20 frame capacity), as well as the two Langstroth hives that I'm going to modify (slightly) to run the deeper Layens frames in.
Going to run similar frames to the ones GregV uses, 14ish inches across, and 19ish inches deep. I have a bunch of conversion bars made up so I can use Medium or Deep Langstroth frames turned vertically.









and I think I'm going to do some retrofitting to the last Horizontal Top Bar hive as well, so I'll eventually have 7 larger-volume hives to use.

It's getting real! The weather keeps getting a little warmer each day, looking forward to the season, hope I can get bees into a few of the hives!


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## Gray Goose

Looks good Nick, Let us know when you catch the first swarm. I'm a bit north of you so I should start seeing swarms just after you do.
Were you going to make your own frames for the 14x19 inch or do you have a wooden ware source? I would be interested in a frame making weekend this next winter, if you make your own. I have been experimenting with the deep long hive , from plans, in the Keeping bees with a Smile book.
GG


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## nickhefferan

Gray Goose said:


> ...
> Were you going to make your own frames for the 14x19 inch or do you have a wooden ware source? I would be interested in a frame making weekend this next winter, if you make your own.
> ...
> GG


Been building my own, so a frame-making weekend sometime sounds like a good idea to me!

So far, my father-in-law and I have been ripping scrap lumber for frames and also for making conversion bars so I can reuse existing Langstroth frames.








this is partway through the build of some conversion bars (the notches needed to be deepened), but we basically used the plans at www.horizontalhive.com
I have some ideas for the Deep frame conversions, to maximize usable area, since I don't intend these to just be transfer frames.
Thinking of half-frame additions so the bees can fill out the space instead of having a dummy board blocking 1/3 of the frame.

we also ripped down a bunch of lumber to 3/4 to 1 inch widths so I can assemble a bunch of frames specifically for these hives








based mostly on the easy-to-build lazutin frame plans from horizontalhive.com again, but with the layens top bar dimensions.
I currently have materials for 30 of these frames prepared, and have enough ripped lumber to make a few dozen more.
need to cut some rabbets for the top bars, but other than that they're ready to assemble.
... the more I type this out the more I realize how much work I still have to do.


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## GregB

Looking great, Nick.
I am envious!

I have a couple of comments..

* If I only had time, I would build the original frames from scratch so to maximize the comb surface areas (tied together Lang mediums do *waist *some area, use-able otherwise); 
so that is to be recognized; 
the main benefit of tying the Lang frames together is the time/work/material saving at the loss of some space usage efficiency (still they work just fine); 

* when trying to match the "layens top bar dimensions" (1.5" width to be sure) be aware that bees will try to double-comb on you if running them foundation-less;
if/when I get around to do my next batch of the frames, I will build them with 
a)pass-through top bars at 1 inch wide and will be using a cover cloth from burlap and/or plastic
b)will make them to self-space to 1.25" by default (they always go a tad wider due to propolis build-up/wax build-up anyway; yes, yes, one should scrape the frame sides and blah, blah... - well, practically speaking that does not get done often enough)


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## clong

GregV said:


> * when trying to match the "layens top bar dimensions" (1.5" width to be sure) be aware that bees will try to double-comb on you if running them foundation-less;
> if/when I get around to do my next batch of the frames, I will build them with
> a)pass-through top bars at 1 inch wide and will be using a cover cloth from burlap and/or plastic
> b)will make them to self-space to 1.25" by default (they always go a tad wider due to propolis build-up/wax build-up anyway; yes, yes, one should scrape the frame sides and blah, blah... - well, practically speaking that does not get done often enough)


Gregv,

Help! I am going to help a man go to foundationless Layens hive. (He has very little time to manage bees) Do I cut the topbar-ish part to 1.25" to 1.375"? I think these bars are 1.635" Why does he make them so wide?


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## GregB

clong said:


> Gregv,
> 
> Help! I am going to help a man go to foundationless Layens hive. (He has very little time to manage bees) Do I cut the topbar-ish part to 1.25" to 1.375"? I think these bars are 1.635" Why does he make them so wide?


I think he (Dr. Sharashkin?) makes the top bars so wide because he follows the Layens specs to the letter.
Why? I don't know. Have to start somewhere, I guess.
Also, Sharaskin still uses foundation, at least some (I don't care what he say about foundation-less - he himself sells Large Cell 5.4mm foundation "Made in Spain"; why is that? that runs counter to all the "natural" talks).
Once you start running foundation, you don't have double-combing issues as much.

Well, the original Layens's specs are for Southern France/Spain - very, very mild climate.
Meanwhile, Sharashkin himself is in Southern Missouri - also very mild (i don't care of few snowy/cold days down there - it is mild, short winter, and end of story; I lived there long enough).

Now, if you are up where I am at and you go foundation-less - you will face few issues specific to my case.

a) Much harsher/longer winter AND a need to be able to use emergency dry sugar - need to have pass-thru bars - I don't care what Sharashkin says - my dry sugar saved me few bees (and I killed few bees not putting up dry sugar in time). So the interlocking top-bars keep giving me some head-aches on this issue - I end up spreading frames to let the bees up - not intended by this design.

b) If you want to run nucs (Sharashkin never spoke of splits/nucs as if unnatural - until lately - now that he *himself *sells nucs) - you want to be able to setup your nest to be favorable to a small cluster - this means narrow frames and 1.25" will do it better.

And so, I would cut 1.25" and call it a day (IF touching top bars).
IF pass-through top bars - cut them as a typical Lang - ~1 inch or even narrower. 
This is my direction now.

Keep in mind - 1.25" are very easy to space a tad wider (they will just be wider over time, anyway, due to build-up).
But - 1.5" can never go more narrow, no matter how hard you try. And so you are stuck.


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## nickhefferan

GregV said:


> * when trying to match the "layens top bar dimensions" (1.5" width to be sure) be aware that bees will try to double-comb on you if running them foundation-less;
> if/when I get around to do my next batch of the frames, I will build them with
> *a)pass-through top bars at 1 inch wide and will be using a cover cloth from burlap and/or plastic*
> b)will make them to self-space to 1.25" by default (they always go a tad wider due to propolis build-up/wax build-up anyway; yes, yes, one should scrape the frame sides and blah, blah... - well, practically speaking that does not get done often enough)


Exactly my plan! 
I'm going with thinner top bars (anywhere from 1 1/4 inches to 3/4 inch wide) instead of the inch and a half. 
Going to use cover cloths to form the ceiling (actually a lot like the guy in the video you recently shared: https://youtu.be/Rlq3n2cJKBk?t=91 ).
and I'm thinking about putting some sort of self-spacing block on them somewhere, either screws, bits of dowel, small piece of wood, etc.

The things you can do with top bars that don't touch definitely outweighed the perks of having touching top bars to me, especially since you can just roll the corner back on a cover cloth to do a quick check and still not disturb the rest of the hive.


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## GregB

nickhefferan said:


> Exactly my plan!
> I'm going with thinner top bars (anywhere from 1 1/4 inches to 3/4 inch wide) instead of the inch and a half.
> *Going to use cover cloths to form the ceiling *(actually a lot like the guy in the video you recently shared: https://youtu.be/Rlq3n2cJKBk?t=91 ).
> and I'm thinking about putting some sort of self-spacing block on them somewhere, either screws, bits of dowel, small piece of wood, etc.
> 
> The things you can do with top bars that don't touch definitely outweighed the perks of having touching top bars to me, especially since you can just roll the corner back on a cover cloth to do a quick check and still not disturb the rest of the hive.


Exactly, Nick.

And once you go with the "pass-through" top bars - you then also have an option to run mini-supers for honey above the main frames.
I say - this is a nice feature to have available.
I am wanting to try these if get around to it.

Another cool benefit - once you start running the cover cloth - you very quickly get those cloths very thickly propolised - those propolised cloths are excellent for the swarm traps baiting (about the best bait there is).
These are better than simply heating/melting propolise into the fabric for baiting - heating does destroy/alter some natural compounds - that in turn affects the smell/texture of the propolise (ideally it should be just 100% raw and unchanged).

Of course, the more propolis bees use around the nest - the better environment it is for the bees too.
Once they have fabric cover placed on them - they will propolise it shut so not to let any air pass through and so they have complete and very solid propolise coverage over the top.

Inspecting the fabric covered frames allows for controlled opening (just like in a surgery room) and so you can control hot bees (unlike in a typical Lang - one reason Lang keeper hate defensive bees - obviously why - the Lang design does not allows to control the bees at all).
So with fabric, you have the same control as if with the locked TBs (plus so many other benefits).

So a natural fiber cover cloth is a winner hands down from any angle. 
It is highly under-rated now days for small-scale keepers.
Only place where it may not be so great - commercial large-scale (it slows you down in a fast, box-by-box/pallet-by-pallet big operation).


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## Gray Goose

Thanks for the offer Nick I'll look you up. Maybe PM me your email address. 
I made 2 of the double deep Lang long hives from his book, Modified lots, 
I sunk the frames down an extra 3/8 and made a double top lip , one for the frames and one wider for the top boards (1x6 cedar) In A long hive IMO Bees need to move sideways in the winter to survive, sealed top bars assume holes in combs would suffice. Did a Screened bottom and drawers. With 2x4 walls, it is a coffin but it seemed to work ok. based it all on deep lang frames which i had. set 10 frames of bees in it and they took off. Dead out from Mites this past winter.  Package stock. My big hesitation for the layens frames is extracting the deep frames, so either you bite off the expense of the deep extractor or do crush and strain. 

GG


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Thanks for the offer Nick I'll look you up. Maybe PM me your email address.
> I made 2 of the double deep Lang long hives from his book, Modified lots,
> I sunk the frames down an extra 3/8 and made a double top lip , one for the frames and one wider for the top boards (1x6 cedar) In A long hive IMO Bees need to move sideways in the winter to survive, sealed top bars assume holes in combs would suffice. Did a Screened bottom and drawers. With 2x4 walls, it is a coffin but it seemed to work ok. based it all on deep lang frames which i had. set 10 frames of bees in it and they took off. Dead out from Mites this past winter.  Package stock. *My big hesitation for the layens frames is extracting the deep frames, so either you bite off the expense of the deep extractor or do crush and strain.
> *
> GG


This is why I am gravitating towards Dartington hive design, GG.

The nest stays - Layens and never gets extracted. Then we have a non-issue. Periodically you C&S anyway to recycle the brood combs.
According to the reading/videos, queen never comes up from the deep Layens-type frame - no QE is needed.
But mini-super idea as in Dartington - I like; for extraction of the mini-batches.

Here on the picture, they have full length honey super frames at 90 degree turn.
I want to make short honey super frames and keep them *aligned *with the deep frames (for few reasons).







Running full length honey frames is still an option too (just as pictured).
Both ways are fine as needed/feasible.


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## nickhefferan

Update: Painted my Layens+ swarm traps this weekend:
(decided to call them Layens+ because they're Layens dimensions plus 3" deeper)



















Looked online at stencils of tree bark, made a couple out of paper, and painted it on. Stencils started getting a bit soggy, so I finished the shadows by hand.
Supposed to be Oak bark. Just need to load up with frames and get these hung on trees!
Each bait hive will hold 5-8 frames.


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## Litsinger

nickhefferan said:


> Just need to load up with frames and get these hung on trees!
> Each bait hive will hold 5-8 frames.


Nick: Your bait hives are looking good- should blend right into the landscape.

Best of success to you in your swarm trapping efforts this season.

Russ


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## Gray Goose

Wow those look good. I was in a couple hives and seen cups and lots of drone brood so your timing may be perfect.
Let us know how they work. Are you using Layens hive then to put then into?
GG


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## GregB

Wow! Nice.
My originals were "spotted cows" - considering I am from WI.








I did no really try hiding them; instead I am looking of safe locations so not to worry of theft.


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## nickhefferan

Traps have been hung!










Three of them are just off of my normal commutes to and from work. 
The other two are accessible, but not where I'm always driving.


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## clong

nickhefferan said:


> Traps have been hung!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three of them are just off of my normal commutes to and from work.
> The other two are accessible, but not where I'm always driving.


Nice work!

_When_ you catch a swarm, I'll be interested in how long it takes the bees to draw out a frame.


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## BigBlackBirds

nickhefferan said:


> Traps have been hung!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three of them are just off of my normal commutes to and from work.
> The other two are accessible, but not where I'm always driving.


now hopefully the state game area turkey hunters dont target practice on that


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## Litsinger

BigBlackBirds said:


> nickhefferan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Traps have been hung!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three of them are just off of my normal commutes to and from work.
> The other two are accessible, but not where I'm always driving.
> 
> 
> 
> now hopefully the state game area turkey hunters dont target practice on that
Click to expand...

They look great! Best of success to you in this trapping season. 

Russ


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## Gray Goose

thanks for starting this thread Nick.
Quick google and https://www.back40bees.com/northern-queens--nucs.html
came up, maybe get an order in for next year if you wish to add some Genes to your pool.
I have never got bees from them so I cannot vouch for the winter survivability.
Hopefully you do not need any, as your traps work out well.
GG


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## nickhefferan

BigBlackBirds said:


> now hopefully the state game area turkey hunters dont target practice on that


Fingers crossed! I'll let you all know how things turn out. Bullet holes, bees, or bust!


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## BigBlackBirds

nickhefferan said:


> Fingers crossed! I'll let you all know how things turn out. Bullet holes, bees, or bust!


If i get over that way some day I'll let you know and show you where there are a couple of bee trees down along the river, assuming they are still standing. in the old days you could drive back in there but last time i checked most of that country was now blocked off


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## BigBlackBirds

You catch anything yet Nick? My dad said there were a few swarms popping up over the last weekend


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## nickhefferan

BigBlackBirds said:


> You catch anything yet Nick?


I currently have two swarms hived from a friends cherry orchard. 
As far as my swarm traps, nothing that I know of yet, but I haven't checked them for a few days.
So I have bees! But they were from California almonds and then down in Florida before coming up here for cherries. 

I need to check my traps to see if I lured any in.
I know there have been swarms from more commercial bees, and I've heard from other beekeepers that they've had plenty of queen cells being made in their hives. 
Fingers crossed.


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## BigBlackBirds

nickhefferan said:


> I currently have two swarms hived from a friends cherry orchard.
> As far as my swarm traps, nothing that I know of yet, but I haven't checked them for a few days.
> So I have bees! But they were from California almonds and then down in Florida before coming up here for cherries.
> 
> I need to check my traps to see if I lured any in.
> I know there have been swarms from more commercial bees, and I've heard from other beekeepers that they've had plenty of queen cells being made in their hives.
> Fingers crossed.


just get yourself some queen cells from more local bees and go ahead and requeen those early swarms


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## nickhefferan

Checked swarm traps yesterday, noticed one of them getting some heavy scout activity.









Worker standing in the entrance fanning Nasonov pheromone.
Hopefully there will be a swarm moving in the next few days!

Darker phenotype than I have seen around my house, this one is located in the forest close to a major river and some marshland/nature preserve. Maybe feral bees? If they move in I'll replace the box with another swarm trap to see if other swarms move in.

The two commercial swarms I have from earlier are building up alright, I have some cross-combing to deal with next time we have some warmer weather.


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## GregB

nickhefferan said:


> ....
> Worker standing in the entrance fanning Nasonov pheromone.


This is a good sign.
Entirely possible these are ferals.
Fingers crossed for you.


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## nickhefferan

July apiary update:

As far as I know, currently none of my swarm traps have been occupied. There are two I haven't checked in a couple of weeks, but the others I saw were empty more recently.

I have three colonies going: one a swarm I got called about by the Lakeshore around June 13th, and the other two are swarms from the cherry orchard in May. All housed in extra-deep Layens-ish hives.

The first swarm from the cherry orchard has been going gangbusters, and I think I ought to be able to split a nucleus off of it, maybe use one of the swarm traps to house that nucleus to prime it better for next years trapping. Planning to leave my traps up until sometime in August just in case.


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## GregB

nickhefferan said:


> ... maybe use one of the swarm traps to house that nucleus to prime it better for next years trapping....


+1
That's what I would do.
This season I continue putting the nucs into the worst primed trap hives around - you know, to get them really well seasoned.
Too bad, I can not do the same easily with my log hive traps - so they are kind of loosing some of the "seasoning" - no swarms yet into the log traps this summer.


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## Litsinger

nickhefferan said:


> July apiary update:


Nick:

Glad to hear you are off and running and here's hoping that the second-half of the season continues to be a success for you.

Like you I had no success with new swarm trapping equipment this season. So (like GregV already noted), for my part I think your idea to get your swarm traps 'primed' is a sound idea.

Good luck the rest of the year.

Russ


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## BigBlackBirds

nickhefferan said:


> July apiary update:
> 
> As far as I know, currently none of my swarm traps have been occupied. There are two I haven't checked in a couple of weeks, but the others I saw were empty more recently.
> 
> I have three colonies going: one a swarm I got called about by the Lakeshore around June 13th, and the other two are swarms from the cherry orchard in May. All housed in extra-deep Layens-ish hives.
> 
> The first swarm from the cherry orchard has been going gangbusters, and I think I ought to be able to split a nucleus off of it, maybe use one of the swarm traps to house that nucleus to prime it better for next years trapping. Planning to leave my traps up until sometime in August just in case.


Surprised you havent had more activity. My dad usually has 3-4 traps around for entertainment. He did have a little swarm move into one this past weekend just before he took them down for year. But it ended up queenless.


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## Gray Goose

nickhefferan said:


> July apiary update:
> 
> As far as I know, currently none of my swarm traps have been occupied. There are two I haven't checked in a couple of weeks, but the others I saw were empty more recently.
> 
> I have three colonies going: one a swarm I got called about by the Lakeshore around June 13th, and the other two are swarms from the cherry orchard in May. All housed in extra-deep Layens-ish hives.
> 
> The first swarm from the cherry orchard has been going gangbusters, and I think I ought to be able to split a nucleus off of it, maybe use one of the swarm traps to house that nucleus to prime it better for next years trapping. Planning to leave my traps up until sometime in August just in case.


Nick, I did end up catching 4 swarms, and am in the process of picking up the decoys. Not sure it will help this year, But what I did was to take the hives I wanted to split, Pull the queen with 2 frames of bees into a NUC. then 4 days later split the rest up based on how many quality queen cells could be utilized. All the splits went into new NUC wooden ware. The old hive and propolized bottom and lid was used for a swarm trap. As in, it had bees in the day before I put it out. Now the NUCs are 2 story and I am pulling in the 10 Frame "Decoys" and putting the NUCs in with the comb from the decoys as expansion. NUC boxes go on the shelf till Spring. So a used 10 frame deep was what most of my decoys were. Also used dead outs for comb and propolized boxes. So in the spring take your survivors and put them into the traps or new wooden ware and use the "lived in" boxes for the decoys, in early Aug or late July, you can put every thing back for winter if the traps are not a wintering type box. So Rather than build traps I just build some extra deeps. Also use them for frame storage when not needed. This year I also used one for a super as I did not have one at the moment I needed it. For me Traps have only 1 function, Deeps have several. Do what works best for you however.
GG


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## Gray Goose

BigBlackBirds said:


> Surprised you havent had more activity. My dad usually has 3-4 traps around for entertainment. He did have a little swarm move into one this past weekend just before he took them down for year. But it ended up queenless.


queen less swarm , a good place to put a newspaper on and then a queen rite NUC,  Agree Traps or decoys are good entertainment. Oddly this year 3 of the 4 swarms had Virgin Queens, Must be my Neighbors are clipping the queens wings now. I guess I get a young queen then not the old one. not sure if I am happy or sad about that. Took 5 or 6 days to see any eggs. The one old Queen which was actually mine had eggs the next day.


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> .. For me Traps have only 1 function, Deeps have several. .. GG


Since Nick develops his Layen's style system, he can not have "deeps".
But multi-function 6-7 frame, plywood hives (about 50 liters) are a good way to go - swarm collection/trapping/nucs/mobility needs/storage/work-table/tool-box/etc - all using the same, exact box.
Pretty sure Nick does the multi-function traps.
Just about now I am out of these multi-use hives (all 10 boxes are used up) and I feel kind of fragile if something comes alone (say, I get a swarm call - got no mobile equipment to put it in).
Need to swap a couple out ASAP and have a box handy again for any possible need.


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## GregB

GregV said:


> multi-function 6-7 frame, plywood hives (about 50 liters)


Pretty happy I invested some work into my multi-function hive fleet - these are indispensable during the warm season.


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## nickhefferan

GregV said:


> *Since Nick develops his Layen's style system, he can not have "deeps".*
> But multi-function 6-7 frame, plywood hives (about 50 liters) are a good way to go - swarm collection/trapping/nucs/mobility needs/storage/work-table/tool-box/etc - all using the same, exact box.
> *Pretty sure Nick does the multi-function traps.*
> Just about now I am out of these multi-use hives (all 10 boxes are used up) and I feel kind of fragile if something comes alone (say, I get a swarm call - got no mobile equipment to put it in).
> Need to swap a couple out ASAP and have a box handy again for any possible need.


Yup, my swarm boxes are basically small beehives, just narrow and tall. Frames the size of two Langstroth Mediums on turned on end.

I do still need to check the two traps closer to the river, but I'm trying not to be too optimistic. 
Was a bummer that the scouts that were checking out that one trap earlier this season didn't decide to move in, but since there was activity I think I'll be hanging a trap there again next spring.


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## nickhefferan

Trap update: Success!










The trap that had been scouted before, has been occupied as of 7-15-19. Lots of traffic to and from, as well as pollen being brought in.
Going to leave it hanging for a week or so before bringing it home, I think the benefits of leaving it out there for a couple of weeks outweigh the benefits of moving it home right now. 
I have some hive prep I need to do before I can move it to a different box, and where the colony is now they likely have less competition for forage.
I think I'll hang another trap up in its place when I do take it down though, just in case there are further swarms in the area.

This trap is located near a nature preserve in state forest land, it's about as far from any residence/cultivated fields I could get while still being near-ish my house.


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## Gray Goose

nickhefferan said:


> Yup, my swarm boxes are basically small beehives, just narrow and tall. Frames the size of two Langstroth Mediums on turned on end.
> 
> I do still need to check the two traps closer to the river, but I'm trying not to be too optimistic.
> Was a bummer that the scouts that were checking out that one trap earlier this season didn't decide to move in, but since there was activity I think I'll be hanging a trap there again next spring.


So we are talking terminology. By deeps I am referring to something I can do splits into, keep bees in, have in the yard with bees in etc. End state 1 deep is not big enough and neither is a "layens trap" So make the traps be small hives, conceptually we are on the same page. I understand the Layens system, and stay with my advice to make something that can be a 4 or 6 frame layens "hive" as well a trap. a trap only, has less use.

Congrats Nick on the one you caught. per Greg's advice. when you recover it, Move the bees into a "new" one and hang the "primed" one back up.


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## GregB

nickhefferan said:


> Trap update: Success!......


Congrats, Man!

Like I said, the traps require no gas or electricity - leave em hanging - be ready for surprises.
The latest swarm I dragged down was on August 25th some years back now - they wintered through just fine (I fed, of course) - these were my first bees since I re-started this "bee-game" again - I used that late August swarm as the sole resource-hive to build my entire current "empire".


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> ....... a trap only, has less use.
> 
> Congrats Nick on the one you caught. per Greg's advice. when you recover it, Move the bees into a "new" one and hang the "primed" one back up.


All agreed - single-use types of equipment are often more liability than assets (talking a small-scale beek).
Multi-use, flex equipment (e.g. single Lang deep/6-frame Layens mobile hive/similar pieces..) - are to your advantage in many ways.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I used that late August swarm as the sole resource-hive to build my entire current "empire".


GregV:

I like the 'empire building' word picture- sounds very dark and nefarious .

Nick:

Congratulations on the swarm- you now have everything you need to build your 'empire'.


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## nickhefferan

Not out of the woods yet for winter of Year 1, haven't opened the hives to confirm but I think I have live bees in my four occupied hives as of yesterday. Still plenty of time for things to go awry, but I'm hopeful. Even if none make it through it was a successful year - plenty of resources to use moving forward. Fingers crossed.


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## Litsinger

nickhefferan said:


> Not out of the woods yet for winter of Year 1, haven't opened the hives to confirm but I think I have live bees in my four occupied hives as of yesterday. ... Fingers crossed.


Way to go, Nick. Here's hoping they all pull through.

Russ


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## sixsevenbees

nickhefferan said:


> Not out of the woods yet for winter of Year 1, haven't opened the hives to confirm but I think I have live bees in my four occupied hives as of yesterday. Still plenty of time for things to go awry, but I'm hopeful. Even if none make it through it was a successful year - plenty of resources to use moving forward. Fingers crossed.


Hi Nick, any updates on how your hives overwintered in the Layen's hives and performed in 2020? I'm also in SW Michigan, outside of Grand Rapids near Hudsonville, and am currently building Layen's hives and traps for the 2021 season. Curious about how your experience has been since I haven't found anyone else local using this style of hive.


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## Gray Goose

sixsevenbees said:


> Hi Nick, any updates on how your hives overwintered in the Layen's hives and performed in 2020? I'm also in SW Michigan, outside of Grand Rapids near Hudsonville, and am currently building Layen's hives and traps for the 2021 season. Curious about how your experience has been since I haven't found anyone else local using this style of hive.


Hi 67B
I have a couple double deep long hives, a bit north of Grand Rapids.
Had 1 do beautifully last year, hence 2 this year, these are well insulated however.

I have an investment in Lang frames so am using the Lang long 2deep hive design, Mostly from Dr Leo's book

IMO the single deep long carries some risk this far north, the Layens should work.

How will your hives bees move latterly? The Layens frame as I recall has no bee space thru or above, which my Lang hives have both.

GG


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## sixsevenbees

Gray Goose said:


> Hi 67B
> I have a couple double deep long hives, a bit north of Grand Rapids.
> Had 1 do beautifully last year, hence 2 this year, these are well insulated however.
> 
> I have an investment in Lang frames so am using the Lang long 2deep hive design, Mostly from Dr Leo's book
> 
> IMO the single deep long carries some risk this far north, the Layens should work.
> 
> How will your hives bees move latterly? The Layens frame as I recall has no bee space thru or above, which my Lang hives have both.
> 
> GG


 Hi Goose, thanks for the response. Glad to hear that the long hives are working for you. I made my first long lang last year and it seems to be doing well so far but there's a lot of winter left between now and spring.

For the layen's hive I made a few modifications to Dr. Leo's plans so that there is appropriate bee space around the sides and bottoms of the frames. I also plan on routing out the top bars of the frames to give the bees space to move over the top. I'll leave a 3/8" gap above the tops of the frames and use cover boards to prevent them from getting into the attic of the hive.

I know by using multiple hive styles I'm creating incompatibilities in my apiary but I want to figure out which style of hive I prefer to work before I make a significant investment in a particular style.


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## Gray Goose

sixsevenbees said:


> Hi Goose, thanks for the response. Glad to hear that the long hives are working for you. I made my first long lang last year and it seems to be doing well so far but there's a lot of winter left between now and spring.
> 
> For the layen's hive I made a few modifications to Dr. Leo's plans so that there is appropriate bee space around the sides and bottoms of the frames. I also plan on routing out the top bars of the frames to give the bees space to move over the top. I'll leave a 3/8" gap above the tops of the frames and use cover boards to prevent them from getting into the attic of the hive.
> 
> I know by using multiple hive styles I'm creating incompatibilities in my apiary but I want to figure out which style of hive I prefer to work before I make a significant investment in a particular style.


let us know what spring looks like.
Always interested in what others near me get to work.

If you have the issue with different frame size in hand you are forwarmed.

I did settle on the lang sizes and the rest then was easy.

good Luck

GG


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## ursa_minor

sixsevenbees said:


> I'll leave a 3/8" gap above the tops of the frames and use cover boards to prevent them from getting into the attic of the hive.


This is my first year with bees and my layens hives but that is what I did and I like the cover boards. In one of them I cut a hole that fits a mason jar feeder and covered it with 1/8 "mesh for the times I need to feed syrup. This allows me to lift the lid and change out the jars without disturbing the bees. That was not my idea but one I learned from another horizontal hive beekeeper.

When I am not feeding I use a canvas cloth to cover the frames underneath the cover boards, the cloth keeps the bees from building comb and attaching the boards to the frames.


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## James Lee

IS the OP still Treatment Free?


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## GregB

thegospelisgood said:


> IS the OP still Treatment Free?


Not clear if the OP ever was TF.
Not heard from him.

One thing to catch few swarms.
Another thing - to be sustainable while the off-chems for at least 3-5 years.


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## James Lee

GregB said:


> Not clear if the OP ever was TF.
> Not heard from him.
> 
> One thing to catch few swarms.
> Another thing - to be sustainable while the off-chems for at least 3-5 years.


Yeah definitely a crap shoot. This is assuming they are previously kept?


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## GregB

thegospelisgood said:


> Yeah definitely a crap shoot. This is assuming they are previously kept?


See the first post:


> recovering package-buying beekeeper.


Nick was looking at the TF as a possible answer - which may or may not be.
In fact, before anything else one should be looking at "dirt cheap beekeeping" ideas (which has nothing to do with the TF whatsoever).


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## James Lee

GregB said:


> See the first post:
> 
> Nick was looking at the TF as a possible answer - which may or may not be.
> In fact, before anything else one should be looking at "dirt cheap beekeeping" ideas (which has nothing to do with the TF whatsoever).


My bad I was reading too much into the comment about swarms and misread your response.


----------

