# 4 way mating nucs?



## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

What is the best way to set these up from scratch?
I have a few that are half frames with plastic fondation. If I were to set them up with feeders to have them start drawing foundation and use them for mating nucs, how many bees would be be optimal to get each section going? I use one cup of bees in Apideas but these are much larger. Any advice would be appreciated.


----------



## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Use UoG's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL3HRd1n53g Just apply the info to 4 way nucs. Alternatively you could make a way to hang the mini combs in a full sized colony to get them drawn out which is how I did it.


----------



## Josh Peal (Apr 26, 2017)

Are you referring to deep frame queen castles? If so, set them up with 1 frame of mostly open brood and 1 frame of feed. 
When the queens return let them lay for a week or two. It's good for the queen and it's good for your bottom line because you don't have to refresh the nuc with open brood. 
Open brood is the commodity with this type of queen rearing. I'm running about 100 of these castles now and they work well but you have to be vigilant about refreshing before the workers start laying or it will put that hole down for several days.


----------



## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

No, I am referring to 4 way half frame mating nucs.
I have and use some queen castles but am trying to get away from those.


----------



## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

I to have drawen out comb in normal hive. I just park them end to end. Sometimes I will park them in a spot where the queen will lay them up with brood then move a half frame of brood to the mating nuc.


----------



## Josh Peal (Apr 26, 2017)

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> No, I am referring to 4 way half frame mating nucs.
> I have and use some queen castles but am trying to get away from those.


I don't want to hijack your thread but I'm curious what your reasoning is for moving away from castles? I've heard a number of reasons but I'm just curious about yours.


----------



## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

I will still use a few of them but I find them to be more resource heavy.
The half frames on the four ways will also be easier to find queens on. 
Ultimately, my reason for switching is that I need to overwinter more queens.
Where I am located, this would be impossible with a queen castle.


----------



## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I like queen castles.I put a queen in for mating and when she gets a good frame of eggs and larvae then they go to a nuc or a hive somewhere.


----------



## tonyp (Mar 16, 2008)

I started mine by shaking 3 or 4 lbs of bees from my 10 frame hives giving each section about a lb of bees each. I also made a top out of plywood that is also divided into 4 individual sections and drilled a hole in each section to hold a half gallon mason jar feeder. Does anyone sell these half sized deep frames? I was thinking shamrock s might but I can't find anything.


----------



## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

As far as I know, Shamrock is not selling those units anymore.
For the half frames, I ordered 100 from Beeline Woodenware. I have since made a couple hundred of my own and cut down Acorn foundation to fit. Table saw works good for cutting the foundation down to size.


----------



## tonyp (Mar 16, 2008)

I cut my own down too. Do yourself a favor and steal a few frames of capped honey during the summer and put it back for winter feed. I probably would've lost mine if I didn't give them a frame of honey in January. I'll check on beeline. Thanks.


----------



## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> What is the best way to set these up from scratch?
> I have a few that are half frames with plastic fondation. If I were to set them up with feeders to have them start drawing foundation and use them for mating nucs, how many bees would be be optimal to get each section going? I use one cup of bees in Apideas but these are much larger. Any advice would be appreciated.


I set mine up using a divided deep with half size frames, then follower boards to split each compartment into 2 units of 5 frames each. I just put starter strips in and let the bees make freehand comb. When I started mine, I thought it would be easy to get the first set populated, shook a colony in two deeps down into a single then set the 4 way on top expecting them to move up into the compartments and start making comb. Didn't happen, after 10 days the frames were essentially untouched. I took drastic measures, caged queen and set the populated deep to the side and put the 4 way in in its place then I shook all the bees into one side with the follower removed. 10 days later they had most of the frames on one side drawn. I split the drawn frames between the sides and added cells to both sides. A couple weeks later they had most of the frames drawn on both sides. I put in the followers and 4 cells. By fall all 20 frames were well drawn. I wintered bees in it.



Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> The half frames on the four ways will also be easier to find queens on.
> Ultimately, my reason for switching is that I need to overwinter more queens.
> Where I am located, this would be impossible with a queen castle.


Last year was my first year using the 4 way for a full season. I love the half size frames for finding queens. I did a late round of cells in early August and left them to winter in the 4 way. One quadrant didn't make it, they had dwindled and were queenless in October. I made a feeder shim out of 1x2 for wintering, put a newspaper on the top bars then pack damp sugar into the shim. In March they were all looking really nice, 2 or 3 frames of brood. I pulled out the follower on one side so they could expand and get brood in the frames from the empty quadrant. Mid April the two 5 frame units had 4 frames of brood each and were over flowing. The other one was a conundrum, absolutely dry of food and no brood. I gave them half a patty and 5 days later they had brood in 5 frames.

This style of 4 way has worked well enough for me I have more built and will be starting to populate them later today. Plan is to take frames of brood from the existing one and replace with empty new frames, we have a flow running and it's time to get more comb built. The queens will be used to split nucs I have wintered in 2 high stacks, then I'll re-organize so that I have 2 brood and one stores frame in each quadrant along with a couple fresh new frames, the excess drawn will be in quadrants in the new boxes.

My goal by the end of this season, we will have a dozen 'spare queens' in the 4 way compartments and a dozen nucs on the next stand. That gives me all the spares and replacements I want / need for next spring. I've had bees in this setup for two winters now, and the success rate is such that I built more boxes and will continue on this road.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

grozzie2 said:


> This style of 4 way has worked well enough for me I have more built and will be starting to populate them later today.


Nice aren't they. Another reason I like this style...the shape of the cluster. I can have an oval cluster, that covers multiple combs, as in a full sized hive. When compared with a Queen Castle that has two standard deeps which favors a long, thin cluster. 

AI Root said it well,

*Root, A. I., ABC of Bee Culture, 1891, A. I. Root Co.*

If we are to have this [a] quart of bees work to the best advantage, something depends upon the sort of hive they are domiciled in. A single comb, long and narrow, so as to string the bees out in one thin cluster, is very bad economy. Two combs would do very much better, but three would be a great deal better still. It is like scattering the firebrands widely apart; one alone will soon go out; two placed side by side will burn quite well; and three will make quite a fire. It is on this account that I would have a nucleus of three, instead of one or two frames. The bees seem to seek naturally a space between two combs; and the queen seldom goes to the outside comb of a hive, unless she is obliged to for want of room. p. 205


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

If you're having problems getting 4-way combs drawn out, cut up brood comb on a table saw to the size of the comb you want. I used support pins to hold the comb in the frames.


----------



## Josh Peal (Apr 26, 2017)

Michael Palmer said:


> Nice aren't they. Another reason I like this style...the shape of the cluster. I can have an oval cluster, that covers multiple combs, as in a full sized hive. When compared with a Queen Castle that has two standard deeps which favors a long, thin cluster.
> 
> AI Root said it well,
> 
> ...


Michael, I've seen you quote this several times and it makes a lot of sense to me. 
One thing I don't understand though is how the queen castle is much different. In all of my castles, I have a very thin masonite divider and I keep the brood frames nearly pressed against the divider. Essentially this isn't any different than a pair of 4 frames nucs in a 10 frame box. I get that the bees are strung out a bit more but I would think the closeness of the brood nests would negate any issue from such. 
I'm beginning to think it's either a climate based problem or something my limited experience (compared to yours) is lacking.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Josh Peal said:


> Michael, I've seen you quote this several times and it makes a lot of sense to me.
> One thing I don't understand though is how the queen castle is much different. In all of my castles, I have a very thin masonite divider and I keep the brood frames nearly pressed against the divider. Essentially this isn't any different than a pair of 4 frames nucs in a 10 frame box.


Is a comb against masonite the same as comb against comb? IMO, not.


----------



## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

I am going to try something crazy with one of them to see if it works. 
My plan is to take out two of the dividers to make it into a two way. I will dump in approximately 4 cups of bees per side. In place of a queen, I will be trying a temp queen strip in each side. I have division board feeders that I am going to pack with fondant to get them started. I also made outer covers that will accept mason jar feeders which i can place on to them once they have been moved. I will close the entrances with window screening and place them in a cool dark place for three days. My hope is that this should get them started. Once I move them outside, I will
Add cells and open them up. For the rest of them, I may cut up some combs like mike has suggested. Has anyone experimented with holding mating nucs queenless with Pheromone strips? Approximately how long?


----------



## Josh Peal (Apr 26, 2017)

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> I am going to try something crazy with one of them to see if it works.
> My plan is to take out two of the dividers to make it into a two way. I will dump in approximately 4 cups of bees per side. In place of a queen, I will be trying a temp queen strip in each side. I have division board feeders that I am going to pack with fondant to get them started. I also made outer covers that will accept mason jar feeders which i can place on to them once they have been moved. I will close the entrances with window screening and place them in a cool dark place for three days. My hope is that this should get them started. Once I move them outside, I will
> Add cells and open them up. For the rest of them, I may cut up some combs like mike has suggested. Has anyone experimented with holding mating nucs queenless with Pheromone strips? Approximately how long?


I'm intrigued at the idea of getting them to draw comb with temp queen. You've certainly got me curious.
You probably won't be able to hold them queenless for very long with temp queen (~2 weeks). The lack of brood pheromone will lead to laying workers.


----------



## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Josh Peal said:


> I'm intrigued at the idea of getting them to draw comb with temp queen. You've certainly got me curious.
> You probably won't be able to hold them queenless for very long with temp queen (~2 weeks). The lack of brood pheromone will lead to laying workers.


 I am thinking that I would leave them queenless with the temp queen only for about 3-4 days at which time I would add cells. I will let you know how it works out.


----------



## tpope (Mar 1, 2015)

I have not seen much comb drawing on temp queen. It does a good job for holding bees in the box until a queen cell hatches. I forgot to use it on a couple of nucs. The bees chose to all move into one compartment and succeeded in making a queen.


----------

