# Powdered sugar treatment question



## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

I have treated one of my hives with powdered sugar yesterday to see how it works.This hive is a two box lang hive.I have used about one cup of sugar.It was a rainy week here but yesterday was a nice and sunny day.I had put the sugar on frames and after that used my brush.After one hour I could see only about 10-15 mites on the botom board(I have SBB)?I did not grease the botom board (why is this important btw?).
Should I be happy or worried?
I have used amitraz  last autumn.No other metod of treatment( I am starting to use foundationless frames in broodnest)

On some of my other hives I have counted about 20 fallen mites in a period of 6 days,again I did not grease the board.Maybe thats the problem.Also I have not taken any honey from them last year.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>20 fallen mites in a period of 6 days

I would not consider that a problem.


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

-I would not consider that a problem.-

Yes,but only if I have counted them correctly.You didnt comment on not greasing the botom board.I have noticed that mites are runing really fast.
Also I have seen litle colorless bugs much smaller than the red mites.Are these young mites or something other?


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Hi, when I dust with powdered sugar, I don't regrease the boards first, but if I'm using the board to count mites in a 24 hour count (wait 3 days then divide by 3 for the most accurate), then I do grease the boards (I'm still using canola oil, but anything sticky will do). That makes them stick where they fall. I'm not sure of the contruction of your boards, but our old boards slide under a screen that opened to the front of the hive. If we didn't keep something sticky on the boards, the mites could escape through the front and reinfest very easily, so sticky was very important. The way our boards are constructed now, they should be trapped, but how can you tell for sure? When we leave our boards out for ventillation, the mites fall to the ground, right under the hive. I was throwing pool grade diatamaous earth underneath last year, but a few weeks ago,I learned something interesting. Dr. Eric Mussen, California State Bee Guy from UC Davis came to our club meeting and I had the chance to join him and others for dinner. He told us that whenever he collects mites he uses a sugar shake, puts a 1/8 wire screen over the jar and empties the powdered sugar on something and collects his mites. He does whatever he does with them, and when he returns to clean up his mess, there are 100's of ants in his powdered sugar carrying out mites and leaving the sugar alone. He mentioned this exciting for those using open screened bottom boards. I agreed that my big bag of scrappings of powdered sugar and mites were discovered by ants right away last year and they were indeed carrying out just the mites and not collecting the sugar like I would have thought.
A few days ago I dusted are hives, and left one of the bottom boards open so the sugar fell to the ground. Yesterday, sure enough, they was ants under the hive and a line of them, each carrying a mite. I took apart that hive, looking for ants inside but there were none. 
Only count the dark reddish mites, the lighter tan ones are immature and do not breed again.


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Hi, when I dust with powdered sugar, I don't regrease the boards first, but if I'm using the board to count mites in a 24 hour count (wait 3 days then divide by 3 for the most accurate), then I do grease the boards (I'm still using canola oil, but anything sticky will do). That makes them stick where they fall. I'm not sure of the contruction of your boards, but our old boards slide under a screen that opened to the front of the hive. If we didn't keep something sticky on the boards, the mites could escape (and they move so very fast) through the front and reinfest very easily, so sticky was very important. The way our boards are constructed now, they should be trapped, but how can you tell for sure? When we leave our boards out for ventillation, the mites fall to the ground, right under the hive. I was throwing pool grade diatamaous earth underneath last year, but a few weeks ago,I learned something interesting. Dr. Eric Mussen, California State Bee Guy from UC Davis came to our club meeting and I had the chance to join him and others for dinner. He told us that whenever he collects mites he uses a sugar shake, puts a 1/8 wire screen over the jar and empties the powdered sugar on something and collects his mites. He does whatever he does with them, and when he returns to clean up his mess, there are 100's of ants in his powdered sugar carrying out mites and leaving the sugar alone. He mentioned this exciting for those using open screened bottom boards. I agreed that my big bag of scrappings of powdered sugar and mites were discovered by ants right away last year and they were indeed carrying out just the mites and not collecting the sugar like I would have thought.
A few days ago I dusted are hives, and left one of the bottom boards open so the sugar fell to the ground. Yesterday, sure enough, they was ants under the hive and a line of them, each carrying a mite. I took apart that hive, looking for ants inside but there were none. 
Only count the dark reddish mites, the lighter tan ones are immature and do not breed again.
And your counts do seem to be very low, 20 in 6 days is only 3+ a day, very low. And 15 in the powdered sugar would also be low. Our most infested hive on this last sugar dusting, we might have had 100 in the powdered sugar by the next day, and on that hive I just counted 8 mites a day. Our hives that had 0 drops only had a few mites, maybe 10 in the powdered sugar. Compared to last year when I first used powdered sugar and all of our hives had very high counts between 20 and 50, there were over 1000 mites in the powered sugar after 24 hours. This year our counts have been so low, from 0 to 8 in 10ish hives (I split from 5, combined a few into 3 queen towers, took one apart, etc). I just did a treatment as our raspberries are going to bloom soon and we will have a honey flow on. This was a preventative measure since I will do not use the sugar during a honey flow and our next chance will be after Blackberries in late June.
Janet


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

Thanks 2rubes-I know it is mentioned on your website but are you still using the same amount of sugar to dust. (how much per one super???). And (XXX )confectioners sugar (or whatever it is called) is fine right???
Does this cause the ants to build nest under the screens? I know some people like them there but I don't like them in my boots  .


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Hi, now I'm eyeballing the sugar. I've been buying 2# plastic bags, whatever is cheapest or on sale and sort of divide them between 4 hives, and I sometimes have a little left over. And now I mostly do each super separtly as I stack them back together. Last year I waited until late afternoon, evening so I could get most of the flight bees, but this year I do it in the middle of the day. Last year we were so heavily infested that it was all I could do to keep from using something else, like succorcide or api-life, but managed to tolerate the high mite load and dust them every chance I got. This year, totally different, hardly any mites. A neighbor came over and we tore 100's of capped drone brood opened trying to find mites. 
The ants I see are taking the mites somewhere else. I'll look again to make sure they haven't made nests under the hives. We don't have fire ants, just the little black argenitan types. I know I'm encouraging them with all of this sugar and mites. As long as they are not getting into the hives, I'm not so worried about them and rather happy that they are carting off the mites. I hope they develope a BIG appetite for them. Of course, I would probably change my mind as soon as they get into my boots. 
Janet


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>You didnt comment on not greasing the botom board.

I don't grease mhy bottom boards. I just measure natural drop.

>I have noticed that mites are runing really fast.

For a little ways.

>Also I have seen litle colorless bugs much smaller than the red mites.Are these young mites or something other?

If they are shaped like mites, but white or transpaprent, yes, they are immature mites.


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

We have geneal dollar store 2# for $1.

Oh yeah boy do we have fire ants


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## gardenbees (May 8, 2005)

Well, I hate the fire ants. Have been fighting them like the devil since we first moved here almost three years ago. But they eat fleas and ticks. My outdoor cats have neither. And now I know they eat varoa mites. I guess the best route is to strike a balance. Let them live in areas of the yard that I don't. Theresa.


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Hi, sorry I missed the posts. I would definitely grease the bottom board when counting mites and in general. We use very deep spaces between our screens and sticky boards in case there is a build-up of debris, plus I've talked to people who've seen them go vertical and live for 8 days (confirmed with Dr. Eric Mussen, U.C. Davis). When you keep those boards in and note when you apply the 'sticky (canola oil in our case), you will have an idea of your mite load anytime you look by dividing the days for a rough 1 day count. We have our boards out right now, trying total ventilation for the first time and we are getting a lot more brood. Our counts have been low so I won't check again until the blackberry flow starts drying up. 
Those mites run and jump very fast, especially if there are bees in the area. I have seen bees land on the board covered with powdered sugar that has hardened, so the last mites that drop and they are now dropping quickly since the bees are grooming themselves like crazy. Look at your board and you will see pellets of powdered sugar where they rolled it off their bodies (like pollen perhaps??).
These mites; easy to see running on that hardened sugar, dodging their half buried brothers with there legs still moving; will jump on the poor hapless bees who alights on the sugar to check it out. And in lightening speed. First watch the bee desperately trying to pry it off and the mite is moving. Try to scrape a mite off by using a stick to hold the bee down and another to scrape the mite off, you cant do it. The bee cant do it. Ive watched. Now, take a pinch of powdered sugar and drop it on that bee that just had 5 mites jump on it, take that same stick and brush it across the back, the mites just fall off. It is amazing.


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

I did a 3 day mite check on our 8 hives last week. They all had low counts a month ago, all within the same range. I oiled all of our boards except one. After 3 days, each of our counts were between 16 and 22 or 6 to 8 mites in 24 hours, except the board I didn't grease. There was one mite, appeared to be dead. Now, that could be that the hive has no mites, but I'm very suspicious. Ill do another 3 day test, but this time I will only oil every other board, making sure the hive that was not oiled will be this time. Ill let you know the counts, but I am thinking, those mites are able to get off the board before Im able to examine them. I think greasing your boards, whether to catch mites or count them would be very important.
Sincerely,
Janet


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## Vabeeguy (Jun 15, 2006)

As 2rubes stated, people have seen the mites go verticle. So, the question is....how far above the cider blocks that my hives are elevated with, should my screened bottom board be? I do have a standard cypres hive stand between the blocks and sbb. Each hive sets on 4 blocks, which makes a solid stand, using sbb's should I just have a block under each end which makes for a straight drop to the ground?


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

I have heard that varroa can jump 5/8" vertically but I'm not sure I believe it.

I think it's important to remember that screened bottom boards aren't in and of themselves an effective method of trapping varroa. The marjority of mites that drop do so because they're done- either dying of old age or damaged whilst being groomed off, or immature mites that didn't successfully mature and mate before emerging. Some mites may fall through the screen and be lost that would otherwise make it back onto a bee, but I'd be really surprised if it was more than 5% of the total drop and probably a lot less.

In other words, don't count on screened bottom boards to control your varroa populations.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Last summer I had one hive that received only powdered sugar for mite treatment. Each frame in the hive was removed and dusted about every two weeks through the summer.

I also scratched out drone brood each time I went into the hive. 

The hive was started from a package the previous spring. It didnt receive any treatments that previous summer or fall and overwintered in fair, but not great, shape due to dwindling. But, the hive did build back up. 

By late summer, I began seeing pms symtoms--deformed wings, dead brood, etc. that got progressively worse. Im aware of what the foulbroods are and am reasonably sure it wasnt those.

After removing the honey, I shook all the bees into a large box with some powdered sugar, closed the cover, and rolled the box a few times which removed lots of mites. 

No other treatments were done to the hive and it died out last winter. 
I also used Sucrocide on some hives in a similar manner with the same results.


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## Alienor (Mar 16, 2005)

Ouh, Dick, 
you are just discouraging me to give it a try......
Why does this method sometimes work and sometimes not?
I'm thinking about it since I heard about it which was 4 years ago.
But the live of my bees is too precious to play vabanque with them.
I had have no concerns to switch to SC years ago and it worked.
But I have a prejudice in this method because it is sooo easy compared to every other treatments. And chemical free.....

*deep-sigh*
So I really don't know what to do....
Any hints will be appreciated!


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Hi Dick,
I think the big difference is I live in California and I can treat just about every month, including winter when there's not a lot of brood (our hives never went broodless, I kept watching). We saw severe Deformed wings all the way into July, and then it sort of disappeared. We have none none. I was doing treatments in dec and January. In March/April 06 I did a 3 part 7 days apart. After the first of the year, the counts were really low. I was treating even though I see low counts. I did one treatment in May and just saw 6 mites. Dick lives in Alaska. I bet he doesn't have a nice week of weather each month like we do. 
I would suggest trying usng powdered sugar, it won't hurt your bees, and keep a schedule, doing a 3 part to start off with, and as long as you see mites on your sticky boards, and again a 3 part in early august (or after you pull your honey). You can do it once a month until its too cold and start with a 3 part in spring.
Use your sticky boards to treat when you see an increase in population. 
Just curious, what part of Germany are your from? I spent my teen years at Lake Constance and Munich.
Sincerely,
Janet


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## Alienor (Mar 16, 2005)

Hi, Janet,
check your PMs, please


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

> you are just discouraging me to give it a try......


Don't ever give up just because someone made a post on an internet forum!!!!  

I was simply writing about my exerperiment with powdered sugar. In the past, I've shaken bees into large boxes with powdered sugar and it did strip mites off bees. The bees, as I wrote, had gone an entire year without any treatments (or mite counts). And yes, as Janet wrote, I live in Alaska at latitude N 61º. My personal belief is that bees will adapt faster to mites in warm climes than in cooler climes. Here's something from 'Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases' I've posted several times before that's fascinated me:

"In a long-term study in Brazil, the infestation level of bee colonies in a cool climate at an altitude of 1,400 meters was as much as 10 times as high as that of colonies kept in a warmer region at 300 meters above sea level, even though the two locations were within 150 km of each other and the colonies were headed by sister queens." 



> So I really don't know what to do....


If I were you, I'd listen to Janet. I haven't given up on dusting bees with powdered sugar. 



> I bet he doesn't have a nice week of weather each month like we do.


It's not that bad.....


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## Alienor (Mar 16, 2005)

"Don't ever give up just because someone made a post on an internet forum!!!!"

No, Dick, it isn't this.
But I'm reading about the sugar treatment since a long time and the published experiences are 50:50.
And I'm not a person which makes quick decisions, I'm weighing the odds long time....
Thanks for mentioning that brazilian study!
I will think (and read) again about the topic.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>the published experiences are 50:50

The same seems to hold true for various other treatments- Sucrocide for example. I know people who swear by it and others who swear at it. I've heard similar responses about the use of oxalic acid. This variablility in efficacy of various treatments is unsettling, to say the least. I think a lot of it has to do with the manner in which a treatment is used and the timing- whether there's brood in the hive and how much. There are likely other variables at play that we don't know about for example, do varroa breed in cycles? We've been told that at any given time, 2/3 of the varroa in a hive are in brood actively breeding. Is this a constant amount? Does it vary? Based on what?

I tried powdered sugar "blasting" using a soda bottle to dust each frame, it was totally inneffective for me. I won't try that method again, but I haven't given up on it. I'll try the "dump a cup on the top bars" approach next time.

George-


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Sorry Dick, I love Alaska, only been there in summer and fall and its beautiful. I just couldn't imagine your bees flying in January and Feb. 
I do agree with George, timing is everything with powdered sugar. I had based the 3 part treatment on the directions on Sucrocide with the intent on capturing mites in capped brood and keeping the counts low. I do know that the powdered sugar saved our hives and didn't seem to harm them and the 1000's of mites on the trays last year said it all. This year, we have such low counts, when we do a PS treatment, we just don't have many mites in the sugar, except for the queenless hive that I mentioned in another post. That hive had about 200 mites which should be most of them.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>I just couldn't imagine your bees flying in January and Feb. 

Not on a regular basis, but occasionally it warms enough for them to make brief cleansing flights.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm

Here's why treatments seem more or less or not at all effective during brood rearing season even when they are effective.


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

My results are in. I did another 3 day check and oiled every other board. The board that was clean prior got oil and showed 7 mites/24hours where there was one mite on the previous checks. All oiled boards showed 6 to 8 mites in 24 hours, and the unoiled boards at 0 to 2 mites/24 hours where the prior test showed 6 to 8 mites. Im not sure if the mites are jumping off while Im removing the board or what, but they are just not there. I would say again, grease your boards to get an accurate count and dont smoke them as this increases the count. 
Since I was messing around, I put all the boards back in and smoked the hives (did not work them). There was a considerable increase of mites on the boards after a few hours, including dead mites on the unsticky boards where I saw as many as 7 mites on the boards. Im just using dried pine needles in the smoker. 
Janet


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## Jim Young (Aug 31, 2004)

Small ants about 1/8 inch in length or slightly larger will remove live and dead mites from ungreased SBB monitoring trays. Yesterday, I observed three mites on the ungreased monitoring tray and watched an ant attack a live mite. After four attempts to subdue the mite, the ant succeeded in capturing the mite in it's mouth and began carrying it away. Afterwards, I cleaned the monitoring tray and oiled it with mineral oil. The 24 hour mite drop count was 40 mites. Therefore, the monitoring tray should be oiled or greased to determine an accurate 24 hour mite drop count.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Dewey Caron says canola oil isn't sticky enough to hold them. It should be grease or vaseline. It would be interesting to hear your mite counts with vaseline or crisco.
Just a thought,

Dickm


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Small ants about 1/8 inch in length or slightly larger will remove live and dead mites from ungreased SBB monitoring trays. 

Facinating. Thanks for confirming a suspicion.

>The 24 hour mite drop count was 40 mites.

A healthy mite population...


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## Jim Young (Aug 31, 2004)

George, this hive is a descendant colony from a swarm hived in May 2000. All of the descendant colonies from this swarm have produced an above average honey crop without any of the hives being treated for either varroa or trachea mites. An alcohol wash revealed 6 mites per 100 bees collected from open and capped brood after the 40 mite drop count. It appears that more drone than normal emerged prior to the mite count; however, no drones were collected in the wash because I believe most of the drones had already been evicted from the hive. The hive is queenright and appears to be okay. My plan is to monitor the hive and mite population to determine if this descendant colony still has the ability to survive the varroa mites as has been demonstrated by previous descendant colonies.


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Hi, just a note, we've been using canola oil on our sticky boards for 9 years. I have never seen a mite move through the oil. It really works great. I understand that small hive beetles will slog through tanglefoot and that you need oil about 1/4 deep to stop those pest. I do like using the canola oil, its so easy to use and clean off. We keep the oil in a covered coffee can with a paint brush inside, and I just brush it on the cleaned off boards. And cleaning it off is easy as well, I use a plastic drywall spatula (Home Depot, $1.29).
I have been learning to live with higher mite loads. Last year we were dropping 50 mites (24hours) on our really infested hive, now our drops are 6 mites in 24/hours. I was told that 6 mites in some places were too high, but after our hives recovered from last year and are booming this year, I have to agree, we need to tolerate higher mite counts. 
Janet


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

2rubes,

Do you use the powdered sugar from the grocery store when doing your treatment? I saw a couple of different brands of powdered sugar at my local store. One had wheat starch in it the other had corn starch added to it. 

Is it a problem using powdered sugar with starch in it for this type of treatment.


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

How do you treat with powdered sugar when your in the middle of a honey flow?? I'm confused at the timings of this procedure. I put my sticky boards on today to see what kind of mite count I could get. This is my first time ever doing this as I'm in my second year. Last fall I just treated my one hive with powdered sugar with no mite test. This year I finally figured out what that white board was suppose to be for, I thought it was part of the packing material for shipping the hive. I threw it away - yea, I know,


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Yes, I just buy whatever powdered sugar that is on sell, mostly the Safeway brand. Sometimes C&H is on sale. I like the 2# plastic bags. They all have cornstarch, even the organic sugar. We haven't had any problems (no dead brood, queen always looks healthy, lots of eggs and brood) and we have dusted a lot from March through August, 3 or 4 times, 7 days apart, then once a month through winter into spring. One more 3 part treatment, then once in May and once in July so far.
We have been using powdered sugar between honey flows on honey we sell. Once fall hits, we do keep the winter stores on and sift the sugar right on the top frames of the honey (winter stores) super. 
We just removed honey after Blackberry and we treated just one time (do 3 treatments for infested hives) with powdered sugar. Our 24 hour count avereaged 6 mites. When we removed the sugar the next day, we averaged about 30 or so mites. I did not do a 2nd or third treatment. There are just not many mites. I will probably do 3 treatments in August after we pull the thistle honey and then once a month after that. With the counts so low, the once a month will be on top of both brood supers (we won't separate them unless we see an increase in mites. Do split the supers if you have infested hives). If you want to dust while your honey supers are on, I would remove them and shake the bees into the brood supers, separate your supers and dust the lower one first, stack the next and dust and just put on your honey super and close them up. When there is a flow, we see the bees removing the powdered sugar, so I don't think it gets packed in, I don't know for sure. In the fall, the powdered sugar will promote robbing. We take the tops off of each hive and that will stop them (we only have between 5 and 10 hives).
We have been able to avoid treating during the honey flow, but if you need to save your hives, this method knocks down a lot of mites. It is just so non-toxic and easy to do.
Cyndi, let us know what your mite count is. Try not to smoke them before pulling the sticky boards for a more accurate count.
Janet


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