# Formic acid/queenless



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The research I've seen says it often kills the queens.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> The research I've seen says it often kills the queens.


Have you seen Dr. Amrine's work? Google Dr. Amrine, Formic acid, Varroa. He claims that the reason for queen loss is the bees balling the queen. Formic destroys, or masks the queen's pheromones, and bees don't recognize her. Amrine claims that adding Honey-B-Healthy wil restore the pheromones, and reduce queen losses when using formic.


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

Wow, thanks Michael and Michael for posting! That explains my hives going queenless after formic treatments....I thought that might be the case and this is the first time I have read about it!


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> Amrine claims that adding Honey-B-Healthy wil restore the pheromones, and reduce queen losses when using formic.


While I don't have direct experience with his product, I think he'd also tell you that Honey-B-Healthy will also make your teeth whiter and your breath fresher too.

Dr. Jim Amrine, and his colleague Robert Noel, appear to be the developers of Honey-B-Healthy. I'm not saying that their product doesn't have merit, because I feel that it does. But, I'm always suspect of product claims by people with vested interests. 

-----

But, to stay on topic, David Vander Dussen of NOD Apiary Products said in a presentation, upon initial application, you will experience up to 14 days of brood mortality. Brood rearing should return to normal for the final 7 days of the 21 day Mite-Away II treatment period.

In my opinion, I'd recommend "hanging tight". See where you're at in a week's time, and then make a decision. Your results appear normal to me.

DS


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## cleareyes (Mar 2, 2008)

First year Nod Apiaries put mite away II on the market, I treated 600 of my colonies and lost 40% of them because the temperature almost hit 30 deg cel during the first week of the treatement. In my opinion, after 2 weeks, the colonies are probably queenless. Usually the weakest colonies are the hardest hit. I now use acid formic flash treatements and the queen can sometimes stop laying eggs for up to 2 days, but the colonies rarely go queenless.


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## MichelleB (Jan 29, 2006)

Just a reminder that MiteAway II is indeed heat specific, and needs to be used when high temps are between 50 and 70 degrees. Spikes in temperatures, especially in the first two weeks, are when the risk of brood mortality is at the highest. 

Having said that, I haven't had any problems with it.


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## Jack Weston (Jan 13, 2008)

I used it two years in a row in the Fall and have decided not to use it anymore. I followed the directions precisely and both time there was marked decrease in hive activity the following Spring in the hive that got the treatment while the other hives were fine.


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## Dubhe (Jul 19, 2007)

My experience has been just the opposite. Aside from some limited brood mortality, all my treated hives did well after treatment. I placed the pads in September when the daily highs were just below 80F. Brood rearing came back & I had plenty of young bees to over winter.

I made sure that temps were good, screen bottoms buttoned up, no entrance reducer, and only treated hives strong enough to regulate air flow. They even took feed during treatment.


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## Hayseed (Apr 25, 2004)

Sorry for not posting sooner - the bad experience I perceived was not that bad. Turns out that most of the hives were not queenless - only broodless. (2 of 10 were actually queenless)I've gotten into the habit of looking for eggs to determine the presence of a queen. Seems that the formic killed all eggs/open brood as well as mites. When the pads were removed, queens started laying. Downside was I lost nearly a month of buildup. However, the formic did it's job.
Dale


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## John Jones (Apr 1, 2008)

*Honey B Healthy*

I am not kin to Bob Noel nor employed by him. However, I believe in Honey B Healthy. I have had hives doing nothing. Start giving them Honey B Healthy and off they go. One of my club members same thing. Don't knock something you have not tried. As far as research goes, there may not have been specific research on this but for years the esential oils point to helping honeybees. Honey B Healthy is esential oils. I buy it by the gallon. You put your stuff out and I will put mine out with Honey B Healthy and you don't have a chance.

John Jones
Stone Mountain, Ga.


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## danno1800 (Mar 13, 2004)

*The new book 'A Spring Without Bees' has a chapter on this*

It talks about Dr. Amrine's work on formic acid and how to minimize the damage to queens. It's a good book about many things. -Danno


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## Radar (Sep 4, 2006)

Quote <I now use acid I now use acid formic flash treatements and the queen can sometimes stop laying eggs for up to 2 days> 

Cleareyes,

could you explain the procedure for "formic flash treatement".


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## Ishi (Sep 27, 2005)

Not Cleareyes But look here;

http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/apinovar.en.html


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## Dr.Wax (Apr 30, 2008)

Stop using harsh chemicals upon living creatures entrusted into your care?



> Downside was I lost nearly a month of buildup.


Other than that everything was fine, eh?


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

I’m onboard with Dubhe, if you don’t use products like Mite Away II as directed and temperature is critical you could suffer catastrophic brood mortality. Which is why I only apply in spring and fall and only when I’m sure the daytime highs will be between 50 and 80 degrees. 
I have been using formic acid since it was made available in the US in 2005 and have only seen positive affects, it controls both varroa and tracheal mites, which for many beekeepers have seemed to have fallen off the radar. Now I don’t relay entirely on formic acid there are no silver bullets you need to practice IPM. And Formic acid treatment is part of that. 

Hayseed: what were the temperature’s when you applied your formic acid? And did you use Mite Away II or your own solution? 

Dr.Wax

What kind of mite control do you practice? I know there are many beekeepers that don’t use any chemical controls but practice other methods like small cell, sugar dusting, drone comb ect. If you can maintain your bees with methods other than either hard chemicals like check-mite ect. Or organic chemicals like formic acid hats off to you. If your doing nothing you should have plenty of empty supers to start more hives every spring.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I think there is a fine line between killing mites and NOT damaging bees, including the queen. I know some, over the past several years, because of temps, waiting till late fall to treat with acids. Way too late to be effective against mites that already did their damage to the winter bees, but just right in shortening the bees lifespan so they don't make it till spring.

The only way I could see using the acids, would be to use it in conjunction with summer splits. Basically treat the hives, then do the splits, then requeen with a non-treated unaffected acid free queen. This could be worked into the whole summer split and brood break cycle. With that said, I do not use or recommend such treatments.

But if your doing all that anyways, I feel there is little need for acid treatments. 

And I wholehearted disagree with those that feel because the formic acid is "natural" that its "natural" to use such products. The whole idea that someone can write a book about natural beekeeping and organic approaches, then suggest the use of acids, makes my my spin. But this is the same person who comments along the lines of "I do not requeen, as who am I to decide whether a queen lives or dies" and then in another chapter shows how to use a capping scratcher to kill a few dozen drones in attempts to counts mites...when other methods are available. Hmmmm.....

You want to use formic, then use it. But to comment or try fooling yourself into thinking this is good for bees or is "natural" is any sense of the imagination is wrong in my opinion.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...people might be interested in a paper we wrote called "No Bee is an Island" about the effects of substances like formic acid have on the microbial activity within the hive:
http://www.BeeUntoOthers.com/

deknow


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## Dubhe (Jul 19, 2007)

Deknow makes an interesting point about the symbiosis of microbes within the honeybee colony. It's unlikely that any mite treatment will cleanly target only varroa and not affect other factors that keep the hive in balance. Surely this is an area that calls for further research.

However, for now I'll stick with IPM, my version of which includes Miteaway II. I agree with deknow's thesis, but we humans get treated for various parasitic/ infectious diseases and the cures also upset our internal flora for a time before resuming the natural balance. A few days of the trots beats death by sepsis. Of course in the long run, our modern medical practices, along with creating drug resistant microbes, probably reduce the vigor of the human species, since we're no longer letting nature select for the strongest traits. 

Nature usually finds a balance and I suspect that the feral populations will eventually reestablish themselves and will be the reservoir that will correct the cumulative insults that we may be throwing at the honeybee.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

dubhe,

a couple of thoughts:

1. humans get treated because they are valued as specific individuals. in the case of bees, i want strong bees that don't require treatment, which requires culling the those that can't make it on their own. any effective treatment makes such selection impossible.

2. on a recent nova episode, e.o. wilson talked about an experement they did fumigating mangrove islands (leaving the mangrove living, but killing off everything else that lived on it). the results were that eventually, the same number of organisms would repopulate, but they were different than the ones they replaced. one can imagine that the microbial "culture" of a hive is just as much an inheritable trait as genetics...and a specific "culture" might have quite a bit to do with survival/reproduction of the superorganism. throwing off this balance, or wiping out some of the organisms might well be more damaging than we expect.

deknow


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## cleareyes (Mar 2, 2008)

Radar - could you explain the procedure for "formic flash treatement". 

I have already posted my procedure on this forum before but it seems that besides miteaway II, it is illegal to use formic acid in any other form in the United States. They have deleted my posting.

You will find most of the procedures (as Ishi stated) on the link : http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/apinovar.en.html

We operate over a 1000 hives, half are stationary on styrofoam boxes, styrofoam covers (for our winters) with Apinovar bottom boards and the other half are with wooden boxes on pallettes of 2 with a "american style" wood covers for pollinination (they sleep indoors during the winter). We use the same procedure for both. The stationary hives get their flash treatment in the bottom board droor and the palletized hives get theirs on top of the brood after the honey is pulled off and before adding new supers. 

My philosophy over the last 3 years has been to constantly get a punch trough at the varoa instead of knocking it out in the first round. I've find that when fall comes around there is a lot less stress on both the bees and the beekeeper!


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## Dubhe (Jul 19, 2007)

> humans get treated because they are valued as specific individuals. in the case of bees, i want strong bees that don't require treatment, which requires culling the those that can't make it on their own. any effective treatment makes such selection impossible.


I doubt that many beeks have the time or could take the loses that such an ethic would result in. I agree with you 100 % in that the best solution would be the one that results from no treatment, but I doubt commercial beeks, or the hobbiest with fewer than 10 hives could possibly pull this off. The giants of this board are certainly giving it a shot and in the long run, the industry will benefit, but for a pragmatic small timer, the whole small cell, survivor stock, powdered sugar, outbreeding, essential oil thing is way too time consuming. The new challenges are just too great. Varroa, TM, new viruses, nosema are just a few recent ones. With the global economy it's just a matter of time before the next "big one" is imported to this continent.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

i don't disagree with you (except that sugar/fgmo treatements, if effective, will hinder the process of finding/breeding from survivor stock).

but this is not uncommon. every industry, when faced with challenges, tends to favor short term gains/survival over long term necessities.

deknow


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