# Warre - only ever add boxes to the bottom?



## Bush_84

I will post the same thing here that I did on the other website. I suggest you read this gentleman's website.

http://www.thewarrestore.com/

I find it very informative and he's from Michigan. So his advice is tailored to your state!


----------



## Oldtimer

To answer your questions, the boxes are added underneath because they are foundationless. Put a foundationless box on top, and bees can have a major job moving into it, unless the hive is very strong and there is a good flow at the time. Yes, it does mean you'll be eating honey that has had brood in the combs.

You could use foundation, in which case boxes could easily be added on top and the hive run like a langstroth. But if you did that, you may as well HAVE a langstroth. 

You could also move combs around and put one or two in the new box going on top, to give the bees a "ladder" to the top of the box from where they will start building new combs. But again, moving combs is going against Warre philosophy, and towards langstroth philosophy.


----------



## Ambassador

Oldtimer said:


> To answer your questions, the boxes are added underneath because they are foundationless. Put a foundationless box on top, and bees can have a major job moving into it, unless the hive is very strong and there is a good flow at the time. Yes, it does mean you'll be eating honey that has had brood in the combs.
> 
> You could use foundation, in which case boxes could easily be added on top and the hive run like a langstroth. But if you did that, you may as well HAVE a langstroth.
> 
> You could also move combs around and put one or two in the new box going on top, to give the bees a "ladder" to the top of the box from where they will start building new combs. But again, moving combs is going against Warre philosophy, and towards langstroth philosophy.


Thanks that helps a great deal!


----------



## barnabees

I'm sorry to highjack the thread, but I have a continuation of Ambassador's questions:

If the bees fill the old brood, isn't the comb dark and 'dirty'? I know they clean it out before storing the honey, but the brood comb gets very dark quickly when being used. Do they clean it well enough to make is presentable as comb honey? I've been reading everything I can find on this process and haven't found a viable answer...


----------



## chaindrivecharlie

barnabees said:


> I'm sorry to highjack the thread, but I have a continuation of Ambassador's questions:
> 
> If the bees fill the old brood, isn't the comb dark and 'dirty'? I know they clean it out before storing the honey, but the brood comb gets very dark quickly when being used. Do they clean it well enough to make is presentable as comb honey? I've been reading everything I can find on this process and haven't found a viable answer...


Dark, yes it will be, especially the center combs. The outside combs in box will be lighter and sometimes white. But this depends on how fast they build down during a nectar flow. They do clean each cell out, but the cocoons are left behind in the cells. Must of us just crush and strain our comb. So you will be lucky if you get pure white comb. If you want comb honey, best bet is TBH or Langstroth.


----------



## barnabees

That's what I thought. Thanks 'Charlie! I'll probably give this a shot next spring, but I like the comb honey too much to give up my Langstroth. Maybe if it's doing well I'll super...


----------



## Bush_84

You could also super a Warre. Just give them a comb or two if possible. My Warres are doing that as we speak. Space above and below.


----------



## The Honey Girl's Boy

Like Micheal says- If you are going to put boxes on top, install a bar or two of comb in the new box on top. The bees seem to move up easier if there is a comb "ladder" to get up to the bars in the supered box. I did it but only to see if it worked. I always install boxes under. As I am solo and mature, (old) I don't try to lift the entire hive. I will disassemble them box by box, set the new box and reassemble the hives back the way they were.


----------



## bnm1000

I am a new Warre owner, and I added a box on top - it started out bad - they built up from the bottom. However, they are doing so well that they connected it all the way up to the top bar and the rest of them they started from the top and now have 6 of the 8 bars filled. I know that I will had to cut the comb to get the box off eventually and from now on I will add to the bottom. fortunately, I think it has turned out okay.


----------



## Bush_84

I supered one of my warres that overwintered. I put a piece of comb in the top box and they are clustering away on the top bars. So far no bottom up action, but you need a decent comb to start from.


----------



## A. S. Templeton

barnabees said:


> ...I like the comb honey too much to give up my Langstroth. Maybe if it's doing well I'll super...


You could certainly add a framed section-comb holder adapter to a supered Warré box. I too like clean comb honey for table use, but the corner-comb that basic Warré boxes provide can be pretty scarce, and of course it's often freeform in build and must be cut to size.

The trick to avoiding Tower of Babel comb is to position the bottom of the section frames one beespace above the second-down box's topbars. Frames in a supered topmost box should be fine in a _tall _Warré, where the draftiness shouldn't significantly affect the brood zone. You can avoid foundation issues and reduce crosscombing by mounting short beeswax strips at the top of each section cell. The resulting honey comb will be freeform, but this can be a marketing point for picky customers.

/Alex Templeton
Beekeeping for Poets, wherever fine eBooks are sold (Amazon? Not yet)


----------



## Michael Bush

>Do they clean it well enough to make is presentable as comb honey? 

They clean it well enough for crush and strain or extraction. It's not a matter of clean for comb honey, it's a matter of cocoons. For comb honey to be pleasant to eat it needs to be soft new comb with no cocoons in it.


----------



## barnabees

A. S. Templeton said:


> You could certainly add a framed section-comb holder adapter to a supered Warré box.


Thanks Templeton, that's what I was thinking. I'll probably top-bar some of my Langstroth boxes next year for Warre, then super with foundationless or wax only foundation frames when the flow hits hard. We'll see what happens!


----------



## chaindrivecharlie

Well, I supered today, my swarm absconded 3 weeks ago. Should of figured it out, my Buddy caught a swarm 1 week after mine. We had no other hive that should've swarmed. They left me about 10lb,s of honey in pure white comb. So I added it to the top of my other Warre, giving it 5 box,s. We will see how it works come fall when I harvest.


----------



## Suze7

I installed a small swarm of bees last week into the bottom box with a couple of pieces of old comb leaning against the left wall with honey for the swarm. I expected the bees to move up to the top box and begin building comb, but it looks like they are building comb right next to the old comb pieces. a few bees have climbed up the wall of the top box, but they are definitely not building comb in the top box. What should I do?


----------



## GregB

Suze7 said:


> I installed a small swarm of bees last week, with a couple of pieces of old comb tealed against the left wall with honey for the swarm. I expected the bees to move up to the top box and begin building comb, but it looks like they are building comb right next to the old comb pieces. a few bees have climbed up the wall of the top box,, but they are definitely not building comb in the top box. What should I do?


So why is this a problem?
Let them build where they choose.
This is a "small swarm" and they can not be everywhere.
They are simply clinging to where it is more optimal to them.


----------



## Suze7

It is mid June. My understanding is that bees will build combs in the top of a Warre hive, and then move down, thus providing themselves with honeycomb and brood comb to keep them warm during the winter. If they build out the bottom and then move up to the top, the top will be filled with mostly air (unless they build it out too) and will not provide them with enough warmth to survive the winter. The swarm was small because. it went through a rainstorm before it was captured. I see the workers carrying in pollen, so i am hoping that means the queen is laying, but she has a helluva a lot of work to do to fill two boxes with bees and honey, and most of the nectar flow is over by now. Building right next to old comb will deform the new comb and I will have no way of removing the old comb later to give them room to finish the box. After the bees have created more comb away from the old comb, perhaps I could move the bottom box to the top, but I am not sure if that would disturb the queen.


----------



## Suze7

I'd love to have suggestions!


----------



## little_john

Suze7 said:


> It is mid June. My understanding is that bees will build combs in the top of a Warre hive, and then move down ...


If we wind the whole "what do bees do ?" question back to the beginning: when entering a new cavity for the first time, then yes -  bees will make their way to the top of that cavity, start attaching their combs there, and gradually begin building those combs downwards. But - then along come humans who swap those boxes around, and so the situation facing the bees then changes.

Bees are survivors, and survival for the honey-bee revolves around the combs that they draw. This cannot be stressed strongly enough - combs are ESSENTIAL to the life of the honey-bee - so that if by some mysterious occurrence (which is how the honey-bees see it) their working combs suddenly become located in the centre of a stack of boxes, rather than at the top of the cavity where they originally were - then they'll most probably stick with the combs they already have, which after all are proving to work ok, unless they feel a pressing need to expand their operation.

Many beekeeping techniques are based on 'tricks' which we play on the bees in order to get them to do what WE want - one of these is to place already drawn-out combs into a box above the box where the bees are currently living. These are often called 'ladders' and not only provide a convenient means of access upwards (which the bees don't really need), but fool the bees into thinking that some combs have already been built 'up there' at the top of the cavity, and so see it then as being their job to continue that work and build some more combs alongside them.

Remember: no-one's in charge in a beehive, and so bees tend to continue with whatever work has been started by other bees (or what APPEARS TO THEM to have been started by other bees). Perhaps the best example of this can be seen when queen-rearing, when bees will draw-out queen-cells from larvae chosen by humans which are presented in a vertical format which suggests other bees have already started that work. Also within the 'finisher hive' which continues raising the queen-cells initiated within a 'starter colony'.
'best
LJ


----------



## little_john

Sorry - forgot to read back a few posts ...



> I installed a small swarm of bees last week *into the bottom box with a couple of pieces of old comb* leaning against the left wall with honey for the swarm. I expected the bees to move up to the top box and begin building comb, but it looks like *they are building comb right next to the old comb pieces*.


Of course - because "that's where we live" - that's where the all-important comb is. "Someone's already drawn comb there - so we'll build some more alongside it."

Solution - do nothing - wait until that box is drawn out, and if they haven't already sorted themselves out then pull a couple of combs and use them as 'ladders' up into the box above. They'll be ok.
LJ

Or - another way of proceeding is to wait until they've fixed that old comb to the box wall, so that the box becomes moveable, and then swap boxes over so that the box they are already established in becomes the top box - then they'll start drawing downwards ...


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> So why is this a problem?
> Let them build where they choose.
> This is a "small swarm" and they can not be everywhere.
> *They are simply clinging to where it is more optimal to them.*


*
*
Right, as LJ stated - it is optimal for them to start where *there is existing base* vs. starting anew.
If prefer, flip the boxes around (they should be light) and make the occupied box to be the "top".
This is not required, however.


----------



## Suze7

I would have put a comb or two in the top box to encourage the bees to. move up, if I had any comb attached to the bars. Alas, my other hives are top bar hives with longer and bigger bars and I have no white comb to stick to the new bars. I have some old brown comb I could put on a couple of bars to get them started, but I don't really have a good way to attach them. Can you tell me a good way to accomplish this? Would it be too late to do this now?


----------



## JConnolly

Does your Warre have frames, or fixed top bars? Do you have any wax that that you can melt from your other top bar hives?


----------



## marksmith

If it’s old brown comb you could trim to appropriate size and use rubber bands to hold it in position. The bees will attach comb to the bar, chew and dispose of the rubber bands. I’ve done a cutout into a top bar hive this way once. That was tedious and slow going. I think firm empty comb would be much easier.


----------



## GregB

Suze7 said:


> Can you tell me a good way to accomplish this? Would it be too late to do this now?


Use masking (painter's) tape to attach combs to the bars.
Just kind of cradle a comb under the bar so it is hanging on the tape; allign appropriately, of course.
Kind of like this (I don't have an exact picture, but this full frame shows the idea):







Bees will remove those tapes on their own.
I do it all the time.


----------



## GregB

marksmith said:


> If it’s old brown comb you could trim to appropriate size and use *rubber bands* to hold it in position. .


Keep in mind - the rubber bands work OK with *full frames*.
With only top bars (the case here, per the descriptions) - not so much.


----------



## Suze7

I don't have any sturdy, empty comb at this point as I have harvested the nice comb for wax. I'll look for some big rubber bands or try to melt some wax to attach the old comb. Thanks.


----------



## Suze7

I don't have any sturdy, empty comb at this point as I have harvested the nice comb for wax. I'll look for some big rubber bands or try to melt some wax to attach the old comb. Thanks.


----------



## marksmith

GregV said:


> marksmith said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it’s old brown comb you could trim to appropriate size and use *rubber bands* to hold it in position. .
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind - the rubber bands work OK with *full frames*.
> With only top bars (the case here, per the descriptions) - not so much.
Click to expand...

Fully read post. I’ve done some for TOP BARS using sturdy comb. Not some as in two or three frames, but some as in 2-3 cutouts.


----------



## little_john

Suze7 said:


> I would have put a comb or two in the top box to encourage the bees to. move up, if I had any comb attached to the bars. Alas, my other hives are top bar hives with longer and bigger bars and I have no white comb to stick to the new bars. I have some old brown comb I could put on a couple of bars to get them started, but I don't really have a good way to attach them. Can you tell me a good way to accomplish this? Would it be too late to do this now?


To be perfectly honest - if this was my situation to deal with, I'd leave that box 'as is' to consolidate and, as some of the combs within it are no doubt going to be in something of a mess (being drawn alongside loose comb) - personally I'd prefer it up there on the top of the stack, so that when the time eventually comes to remove some honey (perhaps later this year, or if not then sometime next year) those combs can then be dealt with by 'crush and strain'.

I know it's hard leaving something alone which is not quite as you'd like it to be, but the bees won't come to any harm with wonky comb, and with that box on top - as soon as conditions require it - the bees will start building down into lower boxes, and so this minor hiccup will then be over. 
LJ


----------



## GregB

marksmith said:


> Fully read post. I’ve done some for TOP BARS using sturdy comb. Not some as in two or three frames, but some as in 2-3 cutouts.


Could have used painter's tape, just the same.
Try next time.


----------



## Suze7

I thought I had replied to this. Sorry! Well, Warré suggested leaving the bees to themselves for the most part, so, in general, that's what I like to do. If I understand your post correctly, you are suggesting that I leave the bees to themselves until they have mostly built new combs and, hopefully, attached the loose old comb and then move the bottom box to the top, hoping that the loose comb comes with it. I don't want to tear new comb, so I'd have to make sure the loose comb isn't stuck to the bottom when I move it. That way, they can continue to build in the top and then move down when they are ready, using the honeycomb at the top for insulation and sleeping bags. Thanks. I like the idea of leaving well enough alone for a while. They need time to catch up.


----------



## GregB

Suze7 said:


> so I'd have to make sure the loose comb isn't stuck to the bottom when I move it. .


You simply cut off any combs attached to the bottom - using a wire, for example.
That's is the beauty of true Warre - move the box and done with it (whatever is inside the box).
You should not be concerned about the between the box attachments - just cut them (very similar to the box-management techniques used in Japan by Apis Cerana keepers).


----------



## Suze7

GregV, I must have seen the same video you saw with the wire pulled through between the boxes. A friend attached some metal to keep the boxes from sliding, thereby eliminating the use of the wire to cut the boxes apart. I put four toggles on the bottom of each box so that I can keep them from sliding, but then I can turn them sideways when I want to cut the boxes apart. Cutting the combs at the bottom will be a little interesting because of the wire underneath, but it should work ok. I won't worry about the mess! Thanks!


----------



## GregB

Suze7 said:


> GregV, I must have seen the same video you saw with the wire pulled through between the boxes. A friend attached some metal to keep the boxes from sliding, thereby eliminating the use of the wire to cut the boxes apart. I put four toggles on the bottom of each box so that I can keep them from sliding, but then I can turn them sideways when I want to cut the boxes apart. Cutting the combs at the bottom will be a little interesting because of the wire underneath, but it should work ok. I won't worry about the mess! Thanks!


Personally, I would not even bother with the wire (right, that video).
I always carry with me a serrated bread knife and that is my go-to tool for such jobs.

You can just insert a long knife or bread knife between the boxes and cut it that way.
Being careful, collateral damage should be minimal.
Bees will cleanup the mess - not an issue at all.


----------



## Suze7

I'm not sure I would trust myself with a long knife! Wire seems safer and takes up less room in my tool box


----------



## Suze7

Since my question about the loose comb and what to do, I see two lines of comb attached to the glass, so they are coming along and my Linden is about to bloom (Yay!). i've given it some water, so I hope that the flow is better than it would be otherwise (not much rain lately). My question at this point is how many combs does it take for a hive to get through the winter in Colorado? Any idea? I would guess that they'll need at least 15 if not 20.


----------



## JConnolly

You need about 75 lbs. A full Warre box is about 35 lbs, so you should plan on wintering on at least three boxes including brood. Weigh the boxes if you can and subtract the weight of the box.


----------



## Suze7

Ambassador said:


> Thanks that helps a great deal!


I am in Golden, Colorado with one Warré hive.The two boxes are full and have been for a month. I'm sure I have a laying worker. I've just ordered a queen excluder which I plan to put on top of the bottom (third) hive box with some brood comb with eggs and a queen cell. Any suggestions?


----------



## Absinthe

Ambassador said:


> My first Warre is officially a week post-install today and the bees seem to be busy. I'm planning on adding another box or two in a week or so and it got me thinking about the whole Warre process a little bit. I've read "Bee Keeping for All" through a few times but I'm having a hard time with some of his concepts. Does Warre suggest that we always add boxes from beneath and never super or does this just apply to adding boxes to an already established hive in the Spring? My package bees are currently busy building comb and laying eggs in the current two boxes, if I add to more boxes beneath doesn't that predispose me to having lots of brood in the honey when I harvest the top box in the late summer? Also, if we only ever add boxes to the bottom as advised, doesn't this mean we are always harvesting honey from comb which had brood in it at one time?


Yes, exactly, and the way the bees do it for real in a tree. But if you crush and strain then you are cycling out your combs quite regularly preventing buildup of chemicals the bees bring in.
Just imagine you start building a hive in a hollow tree. The longer you are there the more the floor rots out beneath you.


barnabees said:


> I'm sorry to highjack the thread, but I have a continuation of Ambassador's questions:
> 
> If the bees fill the old brood, isn't the comb dark and 'dirty'? I know they clean it out before storing the honey, but the brood comb gets very dark quickly when being used. Do they clean it well enough to make is presentable as comb honey? I've been reading everything I can find on this process and haven't found a viable answer...


I don't think one makes the optimal comb honey with Warre style keeping. 

If the colony is growing quickly, then they are bringing the brood lower and the honey higher so it is likely that you are getting honey form brood comb that was only partially brood filled and perhaps only once at that. Does t get too dark in one brood cycle. 

Even the blackest of comb once melted through a paper towel is lemon yellow anyway


----------



## GregB

Suze7 said:


> I am in Golden, Colorado with one Warré hive.The two boxes are full and have been for a month. I'm sure I have a laying worker. I've just ordered a queen excluder which I plan to put on top of the bottom (third) hive box with some brood comb with eggs and a queen cell. Any suggestions?


I don't know what was the point of you getting a queen excluder, but fine - it will not matter as the laying workers are still - workers.

Try what want and see; they may or may not take the queen cell because they think they are "queen right".


----------



## Suze7

Absinthe said:


> Yes, exactly, and the way the bees do it for real in a tree. But if you crush and strain then you are cycling out your combs quite regularly preventing buildup of chemicals the bees bring in.
> Just imagine you start building a hive in a hollow tree. The longer you are there the more the floor rots out beneath you.
> 
> I don't think one makes the optimal comb honey with Warre style keeping.
> 
> If the colony is growing quickly, then they are bringing the brood lower and the honey higher so it is likely that you are getting honey form brood comb that was only partially brood filled and perhaps only once at that. Does t get too dark in one brood cycle.
> 
> Even the blackest of comb once melted through a paper towel is lemon yellow anyway


The "dirt" on a comb is from propolis, a substance made from tree buds like poplar. It is anti fungal, antibiotic and antiviral and is used by the bees to sterilize a brood cell before the queen lays her egg in it. The darker the brood comb cells the smaller they become, eventually rendering them too small for worker bees to keep warm int he winter time. They are not dirty, but dark. If a comb becomes black, it is too small, an should be removed from the hive so that the bees have room for fresh comb. All brood comb is somewhat surrounded by honey comb, at least along the top and sides. Often, when the season progresses and the queen is laying lower down, the old brood comb will be back filled with honey for winter stores and insulation. In a Warré hive, one adds from the bottom to provide more space for brood and honey, but we harvest fromt he top if there are enough stores for the bees to winter over. Depending on who you are talking to, the bees need two boxes of honey with space for brood in two boxes filled with comb (Warré) or three boxes, but as many boxes as you have, they should be filled with comb to provide cover and brood space in the spring.


----------



## Suze7

GregV said:


> I don't know what was the point of you getting a queen excluder, but fine - it will not matter.
> Try what want and see; they may or may not take the queen cell because they think they are "queen right".


If they were queen right, shouldn't they have filled another box in the last month? My neighbor's bees have.


----------



## Suze7

Suze7 said:


> If they were queen right, shouldn't they have filled another box in the last month? My neighbor's bees have.


I sure don't want to add a queen cell to have a lying worker kill it!


----------



## GregB

Suze7 said:


> I sure don't want to add a queen cell to have a lying worker kill it!


Well, the excluder does not stop laying workers - like I said, they ARE workers.


----------



## GregB

Suze7 said:


> If they were queen right, shouldn't they have filled another box in the last month? My neighbor's bees have.


We don't know what they should have done if this or that was true.
You have your facts in front of you and just work with them.


----------



## Suze7

GregV said:


> Well, the excluder does not stop laying workers - like I said, they ARE workers.


I thought that the laying workers would be too pregnant to squeeze through the queen excluder. I'm stymied. I know this is neither an easy problem to solve, nor a rare one. I'd be most thankful for any suggestions you might offer. If I had thought to order another Warré hive two weeks ago, I might have a situation where I could do a split with capped and uncapped brood comb, honey and a queen cell, but there's no guarantee that that would work either, unless I was sure that the laying worker wasn't present.


----------



## Suze7

GregV said:


> I don't know what was the point of you getting a queen excluder, but fine - it will not matter as the laying workers are still - workers.
> 
> Try what want and see; they may or may not take the queen cell because they think they are "queen right".


I have the queen excluder, but I am having trouble trying to figure out how to place it in the hive. Normally boxes are added to the bottom of the hive. My bottom box is still empty or almost. The top two boxes are full of honey and brood, as pollen is still coming in every day. No notable new comb has been built for a month, so either a new queen is only just getting started laying or I’ve got a laying worker. I haven’t been in this hive at all this year, so all I know. Is that. The first three combs built were wonky, but everything else looks straight and full of honey. It looks like 8 combs have been built on the 8 combs provided.

There is some heat coming from the back of the second box, but not a lot. The second box is built out and has been for weeks.

One of the things about Warré’s system is that there is a cloth on the top of the bars in the top box, with an insulation box that goes over that. In. Order to keep the brood smell and warmth in. One isn’t supposed to lift the cloth unless one is harvesting the top box. In that case, the cloth. Gets placed not he top of the second box to keep the brood. Smell and warmth in. If we put a screen below a new top box with a queen cells, comb with eggs and attendants, we have to leave some sort of exit on top. I’m not sure how well this would. Work and none of my Warré hive contacts are answering the question.

I had thought that we would be adding some brood comb, capped and uncapped and a queen cell in the existing bottom box without attendants using the. Queen excluder to keep the laying worker out of the bottom box, but let everyone else move freely though the hive. One of my Warré hive contacts (Greg V) tells. Me that. The. Laying worker can squeeze through the queen excluder. If this is the case, perhaps we ought to leave the queen cell out of the picture and cross our fingers that eggs will cause an emergency queen to happen, changing the pheromones in the hive to turn off the laying workers?


Suze7 said:


> I thought that the laying workers would be too pregnant to squeeze through the queen excluder. I'm stymied. I know this is neither an easy problem to solve, nor a rare one. I'd be most thankful for any suggestions you might offer. If I had thought to order another Warré hive two weeks ago, I might have a situation where I could do a split with capped and uncapped brood comb, honey and a queen cell, but there's no guarantee that that would work either, unless I was sure that the laying worker wasn't present.


Trying to simplify the possible rescue of this small hive. With that in mind, maybe I could accept two brood combs from a friend's very strong hive and install them in the middle of the second box where I think honey comb and drone comb are residing, thereby adding some worker bees to the mix and maybe, just may, get an emergency queen. This would seem a bit less dramatic than aforementioned plan. As long as I don't install workers from the donor hive into mine, would it work? How long would I have to get the egg carrying comb into my hive before they got chilled if it is indeed int he early 90's here? Anyone tried this?


----------



## little_john

Suze7 said:


> Trying to simplify the possible rescue of this small hive. With that in mind, maybe I could accept two brood combs from a friend's very strong hive and* install them in the middle of the second box where I think honey comb and drone comb are residing, thereby adding some worker bees to the mix *and maybe, just may, get an emergency queen. This would seem a bit less dramatic than aforementioned plan. As long as I don't install workers from the donor hive into mine, would it work? How long would I have to get the egg carrying comb into my hive before they got chilled if it is indeed int he early 90's here? Anyone tried this?


Not a good idea ...

Without the presence of a second, strong queenright hive, there's only one method I can suggest with which to salvage a L/W colony.

Firstly, set-up a box at the top of your Warre stack with it's own entrance facing in the opposite direction to that of the main hive. Beneath it place a sheet of wire mesh, which is covered for the time being with a sheet of thick plastic. Into that box place a comb or two of honey and one of pollen, and then add to this the two frames of eggs/larvae from the donor hive you've mentioned, together with the bees covering those combs -* ensuring that there are no bees present in that box from the L/W colony.* What you have now set-up is a small queenless nuc on top of, but completely separated from, your Laying Worker hive.

Then, with luck, one or more emergency queen cells will be started, from which a virgin will eventually emerge and get herself mated. If you want to speed-up this process, you could of course supply an already-mated queen.
As soon as eggs hatch and the bees begin feeding larvae, slide-out the plastic sheet in order to open-up the mesh, allowing pheromones from both colonies to mix. In time, any potential laying workers within the main colony will be inhibited from ovary development, at which point the mesh may be removed in order that the colonies be combined.
LJ


----------



## Gino45

I've always been skeptical of bottom supering. To me it means more boxes to lift. Lately I've had the idea of trying it in a natural cell (foundationless) hive with the thought that maybe the bees would build worker comb instead of the drone or storage comb they love to build up top.
One easy way to get comb honey is to add an excluder on top with a very shallow super on top. My shallow supers are made by cutting down deep supers before assembling. I do this to make mediums out of purchased deeps. I'm cheap is why I do this. Of course the excluder needs to fit your box. That is the limitation. See image below.


----------



## Suze7

little_john said:


> Not a good idea ...
> 
> Without the presence of a second, strong queenright hive, there's only one method I can suggest with which to salvage a L/W colony.
> 
> Firstly, set-up a box at the top of your Warre stack with it's own entrance facing in the opposite direction to that of the main hive. Beneath it place a sheet of wire mesh, which is covered for the time being with a sheet of thick plastic. Into that box place a comb or two of honey and one of pollen, and then add to this the two frames of eggs/larvae from the donor hive you've mentioned, together with the bees covering those combs -* ensuring that there are no bees present in that box from the L/W colony.* What you have now set-up is a small queenless nuc on top of, but completely separated from, your Laying Worker hive.
> 
> Then, with luck, one or more emergency queen cells will be started, from which a virgin will eventually emerge and get herself mated. If you want to speed-up this process, you could of course supply an already-mated queen.
> As soon as eggs hatch and the bees begin feeding larvae, slide-out the plastic sheet in order to open-up the mesh, allowing pheromones from both colonies to mix. In time, any potential laying workers within the main colony will be inhibited from ovary development, at which point the mesh may be removed in order that the colonies be combined.
> LJ


This is what I was thinking we were going to have to do. My continuing concern is going into winter with the boxes out of order. Warré said that going into winter with two full comb boxes was the objective. Not sure where a top obox of undrawn comb will leave us, but it may be the best chance for this hive. Thanks, LJ.


----------



## GregB

Suze7 said:


> Normally boxes are added to the bottom of the hive
> My continuing concern is going into winter with the boxes out of order.


So, Suze, I don't want to get into your management style and the ideas - hence staying out of the minutia.

But I will say, contemporary beekeepers have been successfully ignoring what the forefathers said and demonstrated it is OK to toss many of those teachings as largely immaterial.

Here is just one guy (link below).
He does not give a hoot of all the "classic" teachings, and just does things his own way and everything seem to work out great for him.
Plop the box on the top and call it done.
Take it when full of honey and call it done again.

That's exactly what I would do also - make sure there is honey above the bees (however you get there is unimportant) - call it done.

I'd say watch him in real time and learn and apply what he has to share.


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCraGqc73DPYFPsxrzMLNSmg/videos


----------



## little_john

Suze7 said:


> My continuing concern is going into winter with the boxes out of order. Warré said that going into winter with two full comb boxes was the objective. Not sure where a top obox of undrawn comb will leave us, but it may be the best chance for this hive. Thanks, LJ.


Hi Suze - I appreciate that you're trying to adopt Warre's methodology*(*)* as closely as possible, so just to clarify - I'm not suggesting that you go into Winter with the boxes 'out of order'.

For now, I'd say that 'you need to do whatever you need to do' in order to get your colony queenright - and if that means starting a nuc on top (so that you can get easy access to it for checking etc) - then so be it.

Hopefully all will go well, and just as soon as the two colonies are combined, you can then re-arrange the stack into it's normal ordered form prior to Winter.

Laying Workers are a HUGE problem - not only can we humans not identify them, the bees can't either - and are fooled into thinking that they are genuine queens and so tolerate their presence. The bottom line is that there are only two ways of dealing with L/W's - one is to allow guard bees from a second strong queenright colony to identify them as being 'foreign queens' and so deal with them on that basis. 
The other method is to provide a regular supply of open brood in order to inhibit worker-bee ovary development - but without a second hive to supply that brood, the temporary creation of a nuc on top of the existing stack is the only practicable way I can think of for generating this. If there *is* another way, then it's not at all obvious to me. 
'best
LJ

*(*)* As I'm sure you must have discovered by now - Warre has absolutely *nothing* to say about Laying Workers and/or how best to deal with them.


----------



## Gino45

little_john said:


> *(*)* As I'm sure you must have discovered by now - Warre has absolutely *nothing* to say about Laying Workers and/or how best to deal with them.


,
When asked, how many hives does one need, my answer has always been, one is not enough. The resources from a second hive are needed if there is a problem such as no queen, drone layer, or laying workers. These situations will happen with your bees no matter how good you are at beekeeping.


----------

