# two graft sessions zero takes



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Twenty minutes sounds way too long, unless kept moist with wet towel/paper towels. Perhaps, if you haven't, you could prime the cups with a tiny drop of RJ. That helps keep the tiny larvae from drying out. Of course, it is also an indicator; if the priming RJ dries out (the grafted larvae will have too), you would then need to start over again.


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## Fl_Beak (May 9, 2010)

are you taking RJ from your hive or using store bought? How much is too much to prime? I was considering using a qtip to rob some RJ from cells, and just moisten the grafting cups, fearing drowing a larva


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

Having the frame out for 20 minutes should be no problem as long as it was not in direct sunlight.
Grafting is best done in the shade.
I often graft larvae dry so I don't think the lack of jelly is likely to be the problem
I suspect the problem is more likely to be with your cell raiser.
Has it got plenty of pollen and is it definitely queenless?
Is there a flow on and are the bees bringing in a lot of pollen.
Sometimes when I graft they start 20/20 cells but occasionally they start just one or two or maybe none at all.
The problem is often the weather where I live but you should be ok in Florida.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

It is not easy to drown them, I often spray the cups and frames of larvae with a fine mist of distilled water from a spray bottle. Sometimes a film of water forms in the cell cups and the larvae float on this just fine. I think the easiest way to have them drown is if they are flipped over during the grafting process. Hypothetically they learn to breath from the side they keep up, and turning them over can cause drowning. But they will even float on water. I watched a You-tube video where the grafter used water to float the larvae out of their worker comb cells, they were floating in a tray of water, where they were plucked from and inserted into their cell cups. The cells produced this way appeared well developed.

A Q-tip may work when moving RJ, but it seems lots of it might be absorbed into the cotton. I've used RJ rescued from other cell cups, as well as some I received from R.A. I use one of the German stainless steel grafting tools to harvest and prime with RJ. Also, the plastic syringe the R.A. RJ was provided in. I don't suppose that you can really use too much RJ for priming, after all, some queen grafters use a technique, where the cell cups are grafted, the cups are filled with RJ, then that larvae is removed and replaced with another very young larvae. She being placed in the large bed of RJ having already been put there for the earlier larvae. A technique appropriately called double-grafting.


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## Fl_Beak (May 9, 2010)

absolutely queenless, only a little bit of a flow. I am feeding the cell raiser colony- but a flow can 'make or break' you?
they are bringing in some pollen.
I grafted in my kitchen, under fluorescent lights, 20 meters from the hives...


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

When I first began raising queens, I would make a colony queenless. Wait until they were building cells, then destroy all but the best looking/positioned cells, remove the larvae from those and replace them with larvae from my breeder colony. BINGO, cultured cells with the bees doing most of the work for me. I cut them out when they were soon due to emerge and place them where I wanted them.

BTW, flow or not, I'm always providing some pollen sub and sugar syrup to my cell starter/growers. Just in case.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

That sounds discouraging, but don't give up. There is definitely a learning curve, but you'll get it before long. I suggest a stronger cell builder than you think you need, and better light and magnification than you think you need.

Zero takes out of 20 really does sound like you're not as queen less as you think.


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## Happy Honey Farm (Feb 14, 2010)

Is your hive queenless, did you leave them queenless for 24 hours, are you feeding them syrup and pollen patty, do you have a big population of nurse bees and graft in a warm shaded place. If you follow these steps you should have sucess. Keep trying !!!!


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I have made up my starter hive in the morning a grafted in the afternoon many times and get good results. I think you maybe getting larva just a little bit too old or you would at least get a few cells even in a queen right hive. Keep trying you will figure it out.


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## Fl_Beak (May 9, 2010)

I just did another 20 cells, to keep trying. I'm off all week, so I'll check in two days and try again...

My cell starter began as three frames capped brood and bees to cover. One frame nectar/pollen. I've fed sugar water or honey water constantly. going on seven days- there is no evidence of eggs/larvae, so pretty confident that we are without a queen, but I've been wrong on lesser things.

*My observations this time*- several grafts (with Chinese tool) brought out the RJ, but I noticed the larvae on the side of its original cell. Perhaps last time I thought I was getting RJ and a larvae, but only got larvae...

So I used my poor technique to my advantage, I think. I primed each cup with some RJ, then flipped my frame over, taking larvae and RJ into the QC's.

*more questions:* I made wax cups with dowels, do I need to set up the cell bar, and place the cups in a hive for a day for the cups to be cleaned? I've just taken them from the container, grafted and put them back into the cell builder.

I've still about one frame of emerging brood- all other frames are emerged and getting filled w/nectar. When is it time to swap out for new brood?


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## Fl_Beak (May 9, 2010)

I attended a queen grafting workshop, that's the extent of my training experience. I understand that you want the youngest larvae possible. I also my change my screen name to Mr Questions

Is it true if you can see the c shape, it is too big? 
I ask because, I can see cups on a frame with RJ, but can't see anything in it. I move outwards on the frame a row or two, and can see smaller larvae; barely bent in a C shape. Sometimes the graft comes up with bee milk, and then I can see a larvae on the grafting tool. 

Sound like I am in the correct age range of larvae?


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

It sounds like you need a timing box! Check out FatBeeMan's video for some tips:
Queen Timing Box. This answered a bunch of questions for me about how to get larvae that are the right age for grafting. Maybe it'll be helpful for you, too.



Rusty


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

You don't have to wait two days, within 24hrs you can tell if the cells were accepted or not. They will already be starting to work the cells down from the cup and you will see lots of RJ in the bottom of the cell. I often check cells in 24hrs and redo them if I don't get the take I am looking for. 

I sometimes can not see the larva on the tip of my grafting tool. If you can see it good on the tip of the tool it may be too big. Look for the cells that sit in nothing but small clear pools of fluid. Once the pool starts to take on the white color the larva is often too big. Pick up the whole pool and set it in the cell. I use one of those magnifying glasses that is mounted on a arm with a light under it. It makes a world of difference. Good lighting is a must. 

Using a empty drawn out frame placed in the breeder hive 4days before you graft will really help you out making sure you have the right age larva. At least that would let you rule out larva age as one of your problems. Finding the right age larva on a frame was one of my hardest thing to figure out. Once you have a few good takes it will be easier. Until then the try timing box as Rusty suggested.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I wear corrective lenses (glasses), but when grafting I put a pair of reading glasses on over my regular glasses. I use 4.25 diopter reading glasses. If I don't have the morning sun shining over my shoulder and into the cells, I put on a very bright LED headlight pointed so it shines into the cells. With all this assistance it is possible, but still difficult to view those tiniest larvae.

From your description of setting up your cell starter -- sounds like way too few nurse bees. When I set up a cell starter/builder, I use a 5-frame deep nuc box, I round up three medium depth frames of emerging worker brood and place them into the box, then I use an empty nuc box with a screened bottom and no cover. I shake nurse bees into this box from two frames of brood gathered from three different strong colonies. Be extra careful not to include any queens during this process. Sometimes, when the hives are extremely populous, I will find and cage the queens before shaking the bees into the box. Older, field bees, already having memorized where their home is, will, within a day return there (we don't need them - they're just taking up space, better occupied by nurse bees). I give them a large pollen sub patty, supported on a 1/2" x 1/2" wire mesh rack, so the bees can access more of the patty surface. I also provide them an inverted quart feeder of thin sugar syrup.

I wait at least overnight before placing grafts. Since there are only three frames in a 5-frame nuc, I can use two frames with two 15-cell, cell bars each, or several single cell bars.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Joseph Clemens said:


> I watched a You-tube video where the grafter used water to float the larvae out of their worker comb cells, they were floating in a tray of water, where they were plucked from and inserted into their cell cups. The cells produced this way appeared well developed.


Joe, got a link or name of that video on U-Tube? I've searched but could not find...


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## Fl_Beak (May 9, 2010)

I watched the timing box video on utube, then promptly searched "fat man cell builder"

lol. Won't do that again. Thanks for everyone's feedback so far. I may have been grafting larvae that were too old, or plain missing the larvae. The ones I took this morning I could barely see under one of those magnifying shop lights.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

20 minutes is not to long with Florida humidity. Priming is not necessary if using a chinese grafting tool. You should be getting the pool of jelly the larva is laying in. Even if the larva you are graftingare a little too old you should be getting takes. They will just be lower quality queens. If you are getting zero takes you probably have a queen of some sort in your starter.

don't be so concerned about size of larva to start with. Its better to start with some a little too old to get your confidence up. A better guage than shape is color. If its white it is too old. The correct ones are opaque. You can barely see them in their bed of jelly.

I add a frame of capped brood every week along with adhearing bees to keep up population.

Keep trying, practice makes perfect.

Johnny


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I'm also trying to relocate that You-Tube video. It was Eastern European, they were working with dark bees, and using rear entry hives, with frames that slid in and out of the back of the hives.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

You're gonna get it. Here's a sure fire way to test and prime your cell starter - put a frame of eggs and young brood in it. If the starter is good and queenless you will be able to see cells started on it within 24 hours. Tear those cells down, use the jelly out of them to prime with if you want to, and add your grafts. If they don't start cells on a frame of young brood there is a problem with the cell starter hive. Also you could just use that frame with cells on it to start a nuc.


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## Fl_Beak (May 9, 2010)

@ Broke-t
the ones I tried to take today I could barely see in the RJ. A couple were just milky lumps- I am not even sure I got a larvae- maybe just RJ. Will check tomorrow-


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

You will almost surely have better luck if you improve the light and magnification until you can see what you are doing. One of those lighted desk magnifiers is not bad, but a lighted optivisor is awesome. It's quite likely that the whole problem is that you are just damaging the larva.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

I doubt it is operator error with regard to moving the larvae into the cell cups.
I have had colonies start 20/20 and on occasion 0/20 and I always graft the same way.
The difference in success rate is usually something to do with external factors such as weather or the state of the cell raiser colony.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

I can add nothing to the tec end seems all kinds of good advice
So i wish you the best in the next graft :thumbsup:
Hope it's 20 out of 20 

Good luck


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

when you made your cell cups did you use soapy water on the dowels? some times they don't like the soap smell.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2013)

Zero risk does not exist, but the risks are minimized. A micro graft session is a long careful procedure but involving little danger.


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## Fl_Beak (May 9, 2010)

I did not use soap- cells came off the dowels just fine. Our weather has been a little squirrelly this week. I'll check em in a few hours, and see how round three went. Thanks again for all the pointers!


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## beeman2009 (Aug 23, 2012)

Have not read every post here so this may have already been covered; but if you don't keep grafts moist enough, they don't take well. I cover my grafting frame & cell cups when not in use with very damp paper towels. I had a good friend and breeder for 20 + years tell me that when you start to graft time yourself 10 mins. After that put cell bars in hive. Takes practice, but works for me.


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## Fl_Beak (May 9, 2010)

I looked yesterday, the bees are drawing a lot of worker cell foundation on the cell builder frame. Maybe a couple cells looked damp, but no cells with white milky food. several were clearly rejected and chewed into comb...


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Two thoughts, first are you sure you didn't flip the larve?? they have to remain same side up... and second Might try mel Dissolkens method . if they draw those then you know its something in your grafting.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

HERE is a site that offers a nice review from a novice perspective that may offer you a helpful clue or two of what is going wrong.

(I can only imagine your frustration at this point! Hang in there!!) :thumbsup:

HTH

Rusty


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In my experience the biggest factor in getting cells to take, is the density of bees in the starter.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm#cellstarter


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## Fl_Beak (May 9, 2010)

I peaked again today, and nearly certain that the third attempt had 0 % acceptance. Interestingly, one frame had a little circular area of polished cells- they were empty- but I am gonna let them ride another couple days- see if I missed a QC, and she hatched and is about to lay...
li'l buggars are frustrating.

As far as hive density- if after opening the cover, the hive bars are black with bees, and the frames are full, and you have trouble getting your fingers on a frame for all the bees- are we in the right ball park?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Though, you may be correct about the presence of a queen. Even when my cell builders are given frames of emerging brood, as soon as brood emerges those cells are almost immediately filled with nectar, sugar syrup, or pollen. 

Preparing sections of comb for receipt of eggs, is not a good indicator of queenlessness. And, actually nearly every time I've had repeatedly zero acceptance, after I looked closely, right after placing the grafts, I usually discovered a virgin queen going down the row of cell cups and pulling out the larvae recently grafted there.


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## Fl_Beak (May 9, 2010)

And that's what I 'feel' is occurring. after 24 hrs, on my third attempt, looking at the grafts- there was nothing really in them, they looked dry, and several were getting formed into comb.


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## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

Have you tried adding a frame of open brood and then wait 48 hours to see what happens.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Interestingly, one frame had a little circular area of polished cells- they were empty

Sounds like a virgin queen...


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

That would be my guess too at this stage.

either the cell raiser had a virgin queen in it when you set it up, the most likely explanation, or else one arrived later.
Virgin queens are 'crafty' and I have known them to switch hive.
This happens when there are a lot of mini-nucs with virgin queens in the area.
If there is a big queenless colony nearby, a virgin can fly from a mini nuc and get accepted the queenless one.
One way of avoiding this is to have a strip of excluder over the entrance.


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## Fl_Beak (May 9, 2010)

Found a laying queen in the finisher this weekend. Must have missed a QC when I put the box together...at least one reason for them not making any queens from the grafts...


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

Mystery solved then! 
At least it's good to know it's not the fault of the grafting technique.
Onwards and upwards for the next batch.


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## Cheech (Oct 22, 2011)

*Found a laying queen in the finisher this weekend. Must have missed a QC when I put the box together*

I'v had two queenless hives taken over by swarms. One I actually witnessed myself.


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## Fl_Beak (May 9, 2010)

Anything is possible with these critters isn't it?

I did get 5 out of 20 takes on my last attempt, so thank you all for the input, I am improving but have a long way to go.


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