# Euthanizing Hives with Mites



## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

I am considering to start the practice this year of euthanizing colonies showing mite burdens high enough to treat. Logic is approach will save on treatment cost and salvage more honey and pollen for restarting colonies with bees from lesser infected colonies the following spring. Will I get a complete kill on mites if hives allowed to freeze overwinter? What would be a good agent for euthanizing bees without damaging content of hives?


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## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

Last I checked, mite treatments from a practical standpoint only affect the honey for human consumption, not the honey reserved for bees and pollen, so that's a non-argument. Personally, I consider this approach quite strange, killing your most valuable resource because they aren't being managed properly.


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

It would be my investment in controlling mite problem and promoting mite-resistance in the coming years. Colonies not requiring treatment would then dominate genetics of population used to re-colonize hives.


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

How about treating and then re-queening with better mite resistant stock? Seems cheaper than killing off colonies to me.


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## beewitched (Apr 15, 2014)

Instead of killing them, why not sell them in plastic nuc boxes to someone that would like to treat 'em?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Will I get a complete kill on mites if hives allowed to freeze overwinter? 

Mites feed on the bees' (and pupa's) _hemoglyph _(similar to blood), so if the bees die, then the varroa will also die shortly thereafter. More on varroa biology:

http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/varroa_mite.htm


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

Re-queening to based on my stock and will be a spring time event where strongest colonies based on numerical strength and honey production will be source for larvae to rear as queens. Selling cull colonies will be considered but will not promote mite resistance. Doing sales of such would also seem to be a poor business model like doing same with other types of livestock. People would would not look favorably in the sellers of such. Latter part I will have to think about.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I hope you have deep pockets.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Good luck, you are the only person I have heard of taking this approach. While you say it would be poor business practice to sell those bees, If you are upfront about your approach, Im sure people in the treating bees camp would love to take them off your hands. G


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

if you want to kill a colony without any poison, stick a trashbag over the hive and duct tape it closed. Won't take long in a black bag with no ventilation for them to over heat, if you want to be more humane do same and pump it full of Co2


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Centrachid,

Are you familiar with the term culling? It used to be more common in agriculture. Perhaps a lost art today? The method you describe is practiced by some. One that has written about it is Kirk Webster. He simply shakes out the weak colonies he finds to be too overwhelmed with mites. The bees are shaken out into the snow and the equipment is "harvested" as he calls it. Two lines of thought... Select the healthiest colonies and select against the more virulent and damaging mites.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Wow, I'm stunned. Trained in Zoology and a Professor of Agriculture, and after 30 years in beekeeping these are the kinds of questions you ask here?


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

JSL said:


> Centrachid,
> 
> Are you familiar with the term culling? It used to be more common in agriculture. Perhaps a lost art today? The method you describe is practiced by some. One that has written about it is Kirk Webster. He simply shakes out the weak colonies he finds to be too overwhelmed with mites. The bees are shaken out into the snow and the equipment is "harvested" as he calls it. Two lines of thought... Select the healthiest colonies and select against the more virulent and damaging mites.


I am familiar with culling and employ with other ag related endeavors. I did not consider the possibility that effort will select for less virulent mites so that would be a potential plus.

Trying to get a handle on the economics of culling and restocking versus treatment where there is cost to treating, a potential to loose some honey harvest, and treatment is not a guarantee the treated colony will make the following season or not be prone to need for repeated treatments.

The only fumigant I have employed has been mothballs which I would like to use something less. Dumping bees on very cold will likely be the approach taken.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

this is going to be an expensive lesson on how to keep bees. lol


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## rfgreenwell (Feb 14, 2010)

Yous said your only criteria/selection threshold would be a mite count high enough to warrant treatment. That would seem to me to be self defeating in trying to improve the tolerance or resistance to mite loads, and instead favors the colonies were mites have perhaps only not yet established as great an infestation. Pardon me if I seem rather naive in this regard.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Wow, I'm stunned. Trained in Zoology and a Professor of Agriculture, and after 30 years in beekeeping these are the kinds of questions you ask here?


:thumbsup::thumbsup: G


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

centrarchid said:


> Will I get a complete kill on mites if hives allowed to freeze overwinter? What would be a good agent for euthanizing bees without damaging content of hives?


Resmethrin is an insecticide approved to kill honey bees in hives. Kill all the bees and all the mite will die too.

Why stop with the colonies with high mite counts, kill them all and start again come Spring with new package bees. Honey Householder does it that way. Except I believe he tries to sell his bees, just his bees.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

rfgreenwell said:


> Yous said your only criteria/selection threshold would be a mite count high enough to warrant treatment. That would seem to me to be self defeating in trying to improve the tolerance or resistance to mite loads, and instead favors the colonies were mites have perhaps only not yet established as great an infestation. Pardon me if I seem rather naive in this regard.


:thumbsup::thumbsup: G


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

centrarchid, what i have found is that winter will do the euthanizing for you. if your losses are low enough and if you can easily make them up with spring splits there is some merit into proceeding off treatments and letting nature do the winnowing. having the resources from a few dead outs, i.e. comb, honey, beebread, ect. is invaluable for boosting the survivors and getting the next year's new colonies off to a strong start.

if by 'mite burdens high enough to treat' you are referring to % infestation, i've found that metric may not necessarily translate into a guarantee that a colony is destined to collapse, and i would not recommend scrapping any colonies just because of a high mite count.

i'm still refining my approach, but i believe the best thing to do is a good late season inspection, i.e. when the colony is in the middle of it's fall brooding of overwintering bees, looking in particular for a good brood pattern with mostly healthy brood.

finding a dwindled colony with poor queen, sick brood and a high mite count at that point in the year yields a pretty poor prognosis for winter survival. i've only had this happen once, and my method for euthanizing was to close the hive up and put it in the freezer. this eliminates the poorly resistant bees from the gene pool, but just as important it eliminates the possibly more virulent mites from their gene pool.

i believe that losses at 30% or less are easily sustainable. mine are averaging less than 20%. on the other hand i would through in the towel on staying off treatments if losses approached or exceeded 50% as some have experienced. i believe your success or failure in trying this will have a lot to do with how resistant the local metapopulation of bees in your area is.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Wow, I'm stunned. Trained in Zoology and a Professor of Agriculture, and after 30 years in beekeeping these are the kinds of questions you ask here?


Where should he ask Mike?


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

It would be much cheaper to remove the queen, & treat for mites with a soft treatment after the new queen emerges. That will give them a bloodless period, & you will practically have a new hive full of clean bees ready for winter.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Mark,
I just find it kind of odd that after keeping bees for 30 years it took this long to ask the question. I guess I'll back out and let the thread go on. I suppose I'm being a bit too harsh.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh, has he been keeping bees thirty years? And doesn't know how to kill them? Huh.

I don't have to kill my bees, they do that themselves.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Mites feed on the bees' (and pupa's) _hemoglyph _(similar to blood), so if the bees die, then the varroa will also die shortly thereafter.


true, but if robbing of the collapsing hive ensues the mites will just hitch a ride on those robbers and and end up in the robbers' hives to live another day and reproduce there.

luckily i am able to see what's going on in my homeyard on a daily basis and can put a stop to robbing if it starts. it's a little more challenging with the outyard.


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

I am seeing recently dead colonies being robbed out. Early stages of robbing started before cluster of sick bees lost. Complicating this is at least two other apiaries are within a 1/2 mile radius. Elimination of infected before robbing commences may be advantageous, especially if might control was not successful.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

centrarchid said:


> Elimination of infected before robbing commences may be advantageous, especially if might control was not successful.


perhaps. but that assumes they are being robbed because of collapse from varroa which may not necessarily be the case. if they made it this far into the winter i would say the chances are better they were being robbed due to queen failure. a careful inspection of the frames from the failed hives out may help reveal what happened. please let us know what you find.


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

At least two colonies lost were found to be queenright and mites where evident. Most bees seemed to have died outside the hide. Queens are hard to find sometimes. Losses occurred prior to Christmas with first right about Thanksgiving. A neighbor appears to have had a similar pattern although those colonies are not monitored as closely to my knowledge.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> true, but if robbing of the collapsing hive ensues the mites will just hitch a ride on those robbers and and end up in the robbers' hives to live another day and reproduce there.


I was simply responding to the OP's question of ...


centrarchid said:


> Will I get a complete kill on mites if hives allowed to freeze overwinter?


... _not _passing judgement on the euthanizing plan.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood centrarchid. mites alright. yes, it makes sense to put those in a freezer and prevent them from getting robbed out. by then it's much too late to treat. what percentage of your hives have you lost so far.


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

20% loss. With exception of a small number of nukes, balance in good weight and fly strongly for brief periods on warm days. Nukes being fed fly a great deal more starting earlier and ending later each day flights take place. I am on a kick to observe overwinter activity in hive and keen to observe what goes on when bees fed. Very interesting observations there. What is going on during those flights is of interest since they do not appear to be foraging flights.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> ... _not _passing judgement on the euthanizing plan.


sorry graham, and not passing judgement on your reply, just pointing out that a 'complete kill' involves preventing robbing and spreading to nearby hives, which ended up happening in this scenario, unfortunately.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

centrarchid said:


> 20% loss.


excellent 




centrarchid said:


> What is going on during those flights is of interest since they do not appear to be foraging flights.


they are most likely robbing the honey from dead outs.


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

Bees of mine being fed may not be the biggest robbers even though more active than my non-fed colonies. My remaining bees are dark. Most robbers look Italian. All cordovian colored (also in same location) lost and over half of a neighbors colonies lost as well. My fed colonies are as crow flies about 2.5 miles and more away from the apiaries with the losses and their known neighbors. Setup not clarified which will be done better next round.


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## awebber96 (May 28, 2012)

centrarchid said:


> I am considering to start the practice this year of euthanizing colonies showing mite burdens high enough to treat.


You didn't ask for advice about your method, but I agree with other posters that this seems wrongheaded and poor animal husbandry. 

But if you are looking to kill bees and not damage anything else in the hive, go old-school and use sulphur strips. http://www.leeners.com/winemaking/store/sulphur-strips.shtml. Watch them use it for killing skep hives here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M788T26WIlY. If it doesn't also kill the mites, freezing temps and no bees will.


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

i'm sure others have had different experiences, but i have found that lots of colonies resist mites enough to survive their first year. most of them don't make it to fall the next season, meaning you wouldn't want to use one seasons survival as your keep or kill determination. if it could be solved in a season we all would have done it by now.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Keep in mind that robbing goes both ways. You can prevent your bees from being robbed by using screens, however if you're harboring the same species of charming felons that I have, they will go out and find their favorite "mite bomb" hives and have at it. And once they've found a rich hive to rob they will keep on doing just that.

The high mite counts may be artefacts of the bees' (natural) criminal propensity more than anything. In other words, you could keep on killing any hive that has high mite counts until Doomsday without making any heritable change in the underlying cause, which is the innate robbing behavior that is a survival strategy for honeybees. Stolen honey is economically better for the hive than hauling in nectar, drying it, etc. If they rob a hive with high mites counts, they will inevitably bring home mites - in the short term, it doesn't have anything to do with VSH behavior or mite virulence or survivor genetics. 

Enj.


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

Sounds like shooting you cows instead of de-worming them.
How did your children survive?

There are effective treatments for mites. Consider OAV for hives with high loads and re-queen to remove the genetics of a queen that is vulnerable.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

It is not unusual for stock breeders to keep what they consider their best stock to improve their lines and sell off what they aren't keeping.
I think there would be others that would be happy to have and rehabilitate your unwanted bees.



centrarchid said:


> Re-queening to based on my stock and will be a spring time event where strongest colonies based on numerical strength and honey production will be source for larvae to rear as queens. Selling cull colonies will be considered but will not promote mite resistance. Doing sales of such would also seem to be a poor business model like doing same with other types of livestock. People would would not look favorably in the sellers of such. Latter part I will have to think about.


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## Scpossum (May 4, 2014)

I would practice this cull only if I had the entire population of bees to work with worldwide. Otherwise, you are taking the hit for something you cannot change on your own. It will take the entire beekeeper group practicing on a worldwide platform for your theory to work on more than a temporary scale. Just my opinion. Soapy water in a good sprayer works pretty good too.


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

centrarchid said:


> ... Setup not clarified which will be done better next round. ...


Indeed, For Sure.
I wish love wasn't so full of pain. 

Johann


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## Beekeeper23 (Mar 5, 2014)

So mite poo is dark not white.


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## Buckybee (Jan 24, 2011)

I run a shelter for lost and unwanted bees....I would be glad to drive over and take those vermin infested rascals off your hands


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

This might be one of the craziest ideas I have ever seen. Yes, the goal of mite resistance is excellent but this is NOT the manner to do so. Even the most mite resistant honey bees can show "mite burdens high enough to treat". So you are just going to wipe them out without giving them a chance to put up a fight? Please, do me a favor. Don't sell the hives and be a "poor business model". Give them away to someone who will treat them with love and compassion, even though the bees have, by your standards, poor genetics.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

Buckybee said:


> I run a shelter for lost and unwanted bees....I would be glad to drive over and take those vermin infested rascals off your hands


best suggestion in this thread for sure., pick up some oxalic acid at the hardware store on the way. the bees will feel much better with bleached frames.


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

Any euthanizing to be done would occur late in the season, possibly after fall flow. Colonies with high mite burdens could be scrutenized for colony strength. Those showing marked decline / assumed low probability for survival would be euthanized. Balance would be watched. Harvesting adult bees from weak colonies during that time frame may not be viable for overwinter survival even if treated for mites and otherwise treated as a swarm for placement in hives with sufficient stores for overwintering.

My intent was to get advice on how to approach simply salvaging value from moribund colonies to cut losses without promoting more mite susceptible colonies that would infect others or derail development of mite resistance in other managed yards or even the feral honey bee population in my area.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

I'm coming late to this thread, but why not just treat these colonies and requeen them with better mite-resistant stock? If you follow a "live and let die" approach (which I also think is goofy since you could re-queen) you at least also select for hives that can have a high mite count and still cope. This idea seems like a waste hives with very little, if any, upside.


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

Part of goal is to stick with local genetics in replacement colonies. Presumably local bees will be better suited to local conditions. It will be difficult for me to rear queens so late in season unless I can some how sit on them with nukes and then merge them with weakened colonies following treatment for mites. Will late season treatment salvage the weak colonies cost effectively?

With respect to the waste, I am still not sure about the economics of the various approaches when everything takes place so late in the season. That is something still being explored.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

centrarchid said:


> My intent was to get advice on how to approach simply salvaging value from moribund colonies to cut losses without promoting more mite susceptible colonies that would infect others or derail development of mite resistance in other managed yards or even the feral honey bee population in my area.


It sounds like you have already made up your mind to take the euthanizing route. And that's fine I guess, everyone is entitled to manage their bees the way they see fit. I think the negativity you've been seeing might stem from the title of your thread and the approach you are taking to manage the mites in your colonies. Many hobbyist or small sideliner beekeepers, including myself, might have a different relationship with our bees than some commercial operators. In a funny way we kind of view them as our "pets" or livestock. So, hopefully that might help you understand where some are coming from on the issue. Hope that makes sense to you.

To answer your question, I think the best method for you to achieve your stated goals would be to simply spray soapy water on the colony to kill the bees. It leaves the comb, frames, and hive intact but will kill all the bees. That will instantly eliminate the colony of bees and prevent the spread of mites or genetics in the area. It's a method used to eliminate a colony that has been africanized and can no longer be managed.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Sorry but if you are wanting to go for what you believe to be the best genetics why not let nature do the selective culling for you? If they live they past the test...if they die they did not pass it. If they die the mites they carry also die. If you don't restock the hive immediately the hive also becomes mite free.
Also with other hives so close by you really don't have control of your genetics anyway.




centrarchid said:


> Part of goal is to stick with local genetics in replacement colonies. Presumably local bees will be better suited to local conditions. It will be difficult for me to rear queens so late in season unless I can some how sit on them with nukes and then merge them with weakened colonies following treatment for mites. Will late season treatment salvage the weak colonies cost effectively?
> 
> With respect to the waste, I am still not sure about the economics of the various approaches when everything takes place so late in the season. That is something still being explored.


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

The euthanizing will be employed to expedite what is will already happen and provide me with greater control over storage of hive components through spring. The robbing mentioned earlier is not a small concern.

I may also be able to control drone abundance at one location where managed colonies are not known to be close by and feral colony abundance appears to be low (few hollow trees owing to timber harvesting). Then it becomes something I can at least hedge by swamping the DCA's with my drones. Then I will have some control over who covers my queens.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

centrarchid said:


> Then it becomes something I can at least hedge by swamping the DCA's with my drones. Then I will have some control over who covers my queens.


Not queens from the same yd the drones originate from.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

centrarchid said:


> My intent was to get advice on how to approach simply salvaging value from moribund colonies to cut losses without promoting more mite susceptible colonies that would infect others or derail development of mite resistance in other managed yards or even the feral honey bee population in my area.


Then why don't you just throw your cull colonies on top of strong colonies?


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

I do have the ability to keep queen rearing nukes in a central location and place strong drone source colonies in groups of three about 1/2 mile away to N, E, and W. Southerly not needed becuase of 2 mile wide river bottom stretch not likely to support even feral colonies. There will be stray drones penetrating but they should not represent the majority and so long as my boys are not duds on the wing they should dominate the sperm volume a given receptive queen receives. It is a numbers game of averages but more doable than employing manual insemination.


Purpose is of this also to promote increase from strong colonies where most of that will come from splits moved to central location that will be along side the queen rearing nukes.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> Then why don't you just throw your cull colonies on top of strong colonies?


Because that makes to much sense. And doesn't stir up a controversial thread. It is still winter for you guys, you need something to discuss for a few more months.


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

This thread is done and decidedly not productive. I expected better.


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

CO2,just stick a compressor nozzle in the entrance.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

centrarchid said:


> This thread is done and decidedly not productive. I expected better.


I for one wont miss it. G


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>this thread is done and decidedly not productive. I expected better.

The best way to keep it from degenerating from a discussion of how to maximize breeding mite tolerant bees and still make a profit, to a thread insisting that you treat, is to post it in the "treatment free" forum. It still may not work, of course, but you will probably get less flak about treating. Though you may get more flak about killing the bees.

I will throw in my 2¢ worth. The advantage to letting them continue is that sometimes it takes a certain threshold to set off different behavior in the bees. They may surprise you and survive once that gets triggered. On the other hand I see your point that if you think they will die anyway, why not "put them out of the misery" and harvest the honey. I'm just not so certain of my ability to judge that since colonies I think are doomed sometimes survive.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"What would be a good agent for euthanizing bees without damaging content of hives?" The question he asked.

"Resmethrin is an insecticide approved to kill honey bees in hives." The only answer he needed. But we like to judge people, don't we?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Mark, you just suggested that raid flying insect killer won't damage the contents of the hive? Would you put your bees on that comb after treatment? Would you feed that honey to your children?

There are so many ways to kill bees in a hive without poisoning the comb and honey, why would you even suggest such a thing?

Let's say your neighbor followed your advice...you didn't advise them to keep other bees away from the contaminated stores....I'm sure your bees are too smart to rob out a dead poison hive, and therefore this that buy your hone would not be exposed to raid because of your advise to your neighbor......and of course you certainly won't kill any other hive in the area because other bees will smell the raid and not rob it out.....RIGHT?

Why not suggest dry ice on the top bars? It doesnt flavor the hone as much as raid does, and there is zero downside....unless the bees need to be killed immediately. I'd go with a tank of CO2 before I reached for a can of raid....certainly before I suggested to someone else on the internet.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> Then why don't you just throw your cull colonies on top of strong colonies?


Now that is think about it......Couldn't that overburden the strong colony with excess mites?


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## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

odfrank said:


> Now that is think about it......Couldn't that overburden the strong colony with excess mites?


Or, since the weak hives are disposable, combine them and treat. At least that will give them a fighting chance. For all we know, it's his management methods or lack thereof that are causing the high mite counts to begin with. He can't control the genetics unless he owns hundreds of acres (5 or so miles in each direction), so this isn't a breeding exercise.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Shaking them out on a freezing day should do the trick.

I think you and your "extreme" treatment free ideas would make you a better neighbor than some other treatment free people and their extreme ideas.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

WBVC said:


> It is not unusual for stock breeders to keep what they consider their best stock to improve their lines and sell off what they aren't keeping.
> I think there would be others that would be happy to have and rehabilitate your unwanted bees.


This is probably the most logical suggestion in the thread. I think it addresses everyone's concerns. 

With advanced preparation and coordination with another beekeeper, the bees from unwanted colonies selected for elimination can be shaken out from the donors equipment. The bees and drones (including all the mites) will then be moved to another location well outside of the original "controlled" area. The threat of mite dispersion through robbing will be eliminated, and all undesirable genetics will also be scrubbed from the area when the bees are extracted and moved to a new location. No need to kill the bees, so the humanitarians are satisfied.

The new owner of the bees can then treat the colonies however they see fit and can requeen the colony with better queens of their choosing. Seems to me this takes care of everything. The original owner shakes out his equipment and packs it up for another day. The new owner gets free bees to build up his apiary. Seems like a win-win. What's missing?


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

Has anyone had experience with "package" bees in the fall, particularly late fall?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

one might get the impression that those who diligently apply their varroa treatments don't ever experience colony collapse in the late season. however i think we all know that this in not the case. so the question of what to do with with a colony that is past the point of no return is relevant to us all.

a high mite load may or may not be an accurate predictor of impending doom for a colony. so far there are at least two contributors to the forum, myself and astrobee, who are seeing our bees unscathed by mite counts in the 10-15% range. 

i have a couple of colonies that showed some mite stress last fall, i.e. spotty patterns and a few sick brood, that are now coming out of winter as strong or stronger than their cohorts. so where does one draw the line? i can confirm mike bush's observation that some colonies can turn it around and recover from what looks like certain failure and go on to be productive.

quite frankly the few colonies that i have euthanized were so far gone and it was so late in the season that they would have been of little value to anyone. 

for me the line is drawn with robbing. most of the time it is a passive robbing, i.e. no fighting to the death or frenzy of bees trying to get into every little crack in the hive. it's as if the weakened colony has become so demoralized that it loses the will to defend itself. in almost all cases there is no queen or a failed queen, and no brood.

it's pretty subtle unless you are looking closely for it. the activity at the entrance can look normal from a distance. closer observation reveals that there is not a smooth egressing and ingressing of bees and there is more 'checking each other out' going on. even closer observation reveals that the bees going in are unloaded compared to the bees coming out which are swollen with honey. sometimes you can see the flight path to another hive in the yard.

reducing the entrance and/or moving the hive to another yard is attempted and in some cases does the trick. but when it doesn't and if the colony has dwindled to a very small population it just makes more sense to put an end to it, protect the resources for later use, and prevent the spreading of pests and pathogens to other colonies. i would do the very same if i were treating and had this scenario occuring in spite of it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

centrarchid said:


> Has anyone had experience with "package" bees in the fall, particularly late fall?


Do you mean getting package bees late Fall?


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

Like in what would result from shaking bees off comb and treating for mites before or after relocating. Time would not be sufficient for drawing out comb, brood rearing and making their own stores needed to overwinter where I am located. Another more plausible approach would be putting them in a hive already provisioned. This not something I have done.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

It just occurred to me that the title to this thread can be read two different ways.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

I just saw that myself now that you mentioned it. G


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

"Euthanize Hives Already Infected With Mites" not "Euthanize Hives Using Mites". The ambiguity is not lost on me now. Clarification also was given to indicate hives already in trouble.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

NeilV said:


> It just occurred to me that the title to this thread can be read two different ways.


I was going to say something right off the bat, but didn't. Thought better for once.

"Why would you use mites to euthanize hives?"
"Don't hives with mites naturally euthanize themselves?"
"How many mites does it take and where do you get the extra mites?" 

wha, wha, wha, whaaaa!! I'm here all week folks.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Centrachid, just kidding around. Sometime I can't help but "shoot spitwads from the peanut gallerty" as George Ferguson once aptly declared.

Mark, I almost didn't post that, but (and this is the honest truth) thought of you and realized it might give you a chuckle. I reckoned you're snowed in and hit the reply button.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

There is no more snow here than what was here last week. Wind has moved it around some, but no extra has fallen here. 

Where would the fun be if we couldn't make jokes every now and then?


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

For once all three of us agree on something................ G................ :lpf:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Re: Euthanizing Hives with Mites 

Apparently, the OP still have many more unanswered questions.
This is because beekeeping, in dealing with the mites have too many
uncontrollable variables that will affect the infected colony. Let's give you an example for the time line. Around September 1st, I started 3 new nucs on drawn comb. This is consider late much like the late package bees you mentioned. I did not treat so the mites got them all. One hive got severe infestation, one got moderate, and one strong got very little (a good sign of mite resistant stock here.) The infected nuc got superceded on the first week of Jan, 2015. The new virgin did not get mated and died inside the hive while the mite population was still growing everyday. This situation is exactly like what you described now. Seeing this weeks in advanced, I started building a simple OAV treatment bottom board. Went to the hardware store and got my 12 ounce, $8.00 oxalis acid. Starting on 1/9 for the entire week, I treated this nuc 3 times with the OAV. Killing lots of mites and infested bees in this process. Within 1 week this nuc population had reduced to just less than 2 frames of bees. Very little amount of foragers was left. But still have a young population of nurse bees in there. Then I took the strong resistant queen over to the treated nuc hive. And combine the other 2 nucs together with the 2nd strong queen. The 2nd strong queen has a 7 frame deep full of bees now.
The strong queen quickly laid more eggs to rebuild this declining nuc colony. Somehow I did not gave up to save them. Since the weaker genetics is out of the way with the dying queen there is no chance to put any weaker bees into the outside environment. The strong queen will continue to reproduce in my area. My last hive check showed lots of fresh pollen and nectar coming in surrounding the freshly laid eggs and larvae. I only saw 2 mites that I picked them off. There is no way in this world to get rid of the mites, even with resistant bees, but to deal with them strategically. I have a feeling that this strong queen will rebuild this colony in no time for the Spring flow. After all, we are still in the mist of the winter here.
So instead of killing off the entire colony, go for the weaker queen first. Then restock with good queen resistant genetics and combine. No need to fuss with cleaning or spraying on the comb. Often time it is the beekeeper's attitudes that determine the 'how' of things that will turn out. What we think and acts are the final outcome projected into our outside environment. I can only control what I can using the proven requeen method. How the new queen react to her new environment is up to her now. At least I had given her and the nuc a chance to flourish or not. Now it is your turn to find an IPM to play with. I have....for the time being!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

beepro said:


> But still have a young population of nurse bees in there. Then I took the strong resistant queen over to the treated nuc hive. And combine the other 2 nucs together with the 2nd strong queen. The 2nd strong queen has a 7 frame deep full of bees now.
> The strong queen quickly laid more eggs to rebuild this declining nuc colony. Somehow I did not gave up to save them. I have....for the time being!


Today I took a frame full of attaching nurse bees in 2 layers with its capped broods from the 2nd strong 7 frame deep nuc hive (more eggs and capped larvae now) to give it to the declining nuc hive. This should give them a quick population boost in 2-3 frames of new young bees in addition to the 2 frames of nurse bees that are already in there. It is now a complete nuc hive full of young bees and a good laying strong resistant queen. This queen already filled up all the available worker cells and 2 frames of broods already got capped almost in 2 weeks time. More pollen and nectar are coming in in addition to the syrup and patty feeding. Only found 2 mites in there today and continue monitoring. Things are looking really good now! It can bee done! So stay tuned....to see how I supercharged this nuc. 


Patty feeding a mite infested(before) hive:


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

beepro, you are pursuing an option not available to me. Despite a mild winter brood rearing has not started here and will not do so for almost another month.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Here is Kirk's method:

http://kirkwebster.com/index.php/10-november-and-december-packing-bees-blowing-out-failing-colonies


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks you, Michael for the excellent reading. So true that everything is going back to our
creative minds.

centrarchid, it can bee done! I wish I don't have the broods cycle yet for my little experiment to treat them
intensively before. Wish I can delay the brooding up so I don't have to kill off so many young and old bees during
my treatments. It makes my job easier to do when don't have the young bees in the way. Now is the time to knocked off those mites and give them a good resistant queen in a month or so when they started brooding up. You are in for a perfect timing to make this post.

A good reading from kirkwebster's site with my own little remarks: 
"At the Treatment-Free Beekeeping Conference in Leominster last July, it was very clear that the people who have succeeded in keeping a productive apiary for many years without treatments have all figured out their own patterns and methods based on their own unique situations." <<---See, your situation is unique here to turn things around! Local is for beekeeping.

"However, there is one thing all these beekeepers have in common-- one experience they all share: like it or not, they all watched their bees go through at least two Collapse and Recovery cycles before their apiaries would stabilize enough to produce surplus hive products without treatments." <<--- Good, let yours collapse and then rebuild with a new resistant queen for those mites.
"But this situation is counterbalanced by the ever increasing army of new, young and old hobby beekeepers coming on the scene, unencumbered by memories of "the good old days", and ready to use their enthusiasm, creative energy, co-operative spirit and money to help build a better future for beekeeping. This is the soil out of which will grow a new beekeeping industry based on a healthier vision of the honeybee colony, agriculture, and our place in the natural world." <<--- Yes, you are the future generation of the beekeepers; to build; not destroy.

"Most of us who figured out a way to keep bees without treatments and still make a living from them lost plenty of sleep and probably shortened their life span as part of the process. But looking back, we realize now that most of the stress we experienced came from ignorance and our inability to be flexible in our thinking. We didn't know what we were doing, and had no good models to follow." <<---Of course, a creative yet flexible mind set in positive thinking to apply in any situation including beekeeping. No models to follow, huh? There is plenty of them here on BS and the net. So what if we make our own models when there is none out there, huh.

"Why are we having so much trouble abandoning our self-destructive habits and working in a more creative and positive direction?
And Fourth; The Element of Mind---we're stuck in a mindset that's harmful and destructive to everything we touch---especially ourselves. Yet, this mindset represents only a fraction of what we're capable of." <<--- BEE, positive in thinking with constructive application to save our precious bees!!!!!!!!!!! Going back to our basic mind sets and intention again. 

"The vital thing is to cultivate wildness at home where we live; to acknowledge, enjoy and utilize the mystery and unknowable power of Nature, as well as the few things we think we know about Her." <<--- Yes, all beekeeping is local that is what it is about, right. Use your genetically wired positive/constructive power within to help them rebuild. You can do anything if have the correct thinking.

"My results are not perfect, but they have enabled me to continue making a living from bees without much stress, and have a positive outlook for the future. I have no doubt that many other beekeepers could easily achieve these same results, and then surpass them.
....it was that participating in the current culture is not necessary for a happy and healthy life; and that most people only use a fraction of their mind's potential. The heart and mind of real farming requires both of these things: some degree of separation from popular culture, and the use of the mind's full potential for creativity." <<--- Aaahhh, the power of positive, creative thinking, again! We all have it within ourselves. But nobody is perfect, alright even for the bees and the mites. We have to help them along to get them thru this small obstacle. Give your bees some love and TLC. It is not their fault.

"It's becoming impossible to ignore the fact that we can't live on the Earth for much longer by destroying things and using them up. This can only be accomplished by focusing on the health and well-being of other living things before ourselves. We can see the answers all around us if we just learn to look with eyes of generosity instead of the eyes of greed." <<---- Giving back to the bees now. They have helped us so much already. Now is the time that we help them along. We need to save this colony no matter what.

"Or consider Winston Churchill's very astute observation: "You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing----after they've exhausted every other possibility..." <<---- Always, there are so many options available to help them with the power to create, not destruction. I'm sure there is always ONE best solution in any given situation.

http://kirkwebster.com/index.php/collapse-and-recovery-the-gateway-to-treatment-free-beekeeping"


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

That's a waste of bees. I did kill the queen in a colony that I thought was doing a bad job of suppressing mites. After breaking the brood cycle, and some more sugar dustings, I will combine them with a good colony (once the sugar is gone).


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

Using treatments to make my apiary treatment free seems like common sense.


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