# Winter clusters chimney up and starve out



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Feed protein in August/September to boost brood rearing to make larger clusters of young bees going into winter?


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## Broglea (Jul 2, 2013)

Maybe switch to a top bar hive?????????


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I think your bees are dying of mites and or mite vectored viruses and you have mis-diagnosed their cause of death. You could also consider that there are climates where bees can not sustainably be kept. Maybe you are in one. Are there feral bees successfully living on their own in your neighborhood?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Use long hives. 

Put the brood nest up against one end of the hive before winter. Then they can only go one direction, and must go onto each frame to get to the next.


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

make candy boards and put them in in mid winter


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I'm with odfrank. Varroa can result in a small, unsustainable winter cluster. Do a mite count before season's end. Whether you choose to treat or not...it might explain your losses.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

I agree with the posters above that you should investigate why you end up with small clusters. You might want to try overwintering in tall nucs, a 5 x 5 which will be equivalent to a single or a 5 x 5 x 5 x 5 which would be equivalent to a standard double deep. You might also consider adding a candy board on the top.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I am also high mountain dessert. last freeze is May 15th first is October 15th. Our last flow from Rabbit Brush begins after first frost. Have the same chilly nights you would have year round. and I have seen it snow on July 4th.

I do not go into winter with small clusters. I did have one hive last year with a tiny cluster and they still survived to spring. That was a bad queen situation.

I feed my bees going into fall so they have a full deep of bees and a full box of stores. my bees are still bringing in pollen. Thanks to the sage brush. I have heard that some beekeepers move their bees to Nevada in the late summer just to let them prep for winter. I found my bees bringing in pollen in February.

Overall impression so far. strong colonies will survive. Your bees are not starving. they have food. they are freezing. There is a difference if you think about it.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Wow! Such great responses, Thank you 
I am in too deep with Langstroth hives to switch to top bar or other equipment. I do have some nucs to experiment with, I will have to make some upper boxes or modify a couple of them since the bottom boards are attached.
Usually I do an inspection every two weeks or so, probably less often in real time. Basically I am looking for brood, bee bread and nectar/honey stores. If I find brood of all stages, no dead bees and no DWV I am happy. 



Michael Palmer said:


> Feed protein in August/September to boost brood rearing to make larger clusters of young bees going into winter?


This year I am trying open feeding of pollen substitute since September for this reason. The girls are all over it and bringing it into the hives like crazy. I have already noticed more activity at the entrances and orientation flights. I believe this is a good sign.



odfrank said:


> I think your bees are dying of mites and or mite vectored viruses and you have mis-diagnosed their cause of death. You could also consider that there are climates where bees can not sustainably be kept. Maybe you are in one. Are there feral bees successfully living on their own in your neighborhood?


Heads in cells with tongues sticking out, cluster intact and queen in the center. Typically located in the center frames up to the inner cover. Could be something else mite related. I have had DWV in a hive this spring but it cleared up and they are still surviving. And I do not treat for mites. I do treat for Nosema though. I do believe that this area is a tough place for bees but I believe it is doable. There are other beeks in my area, mostly hobbyists like me. My closest association is in a completely different climate several miles away. We do have bees in our area. I cannot be certain that they are feral or not. This year I have had two usurpation attempts and I assume those are AHB or AHB hybrid.



Daniel Y said:


> I am also high mountain desert. Last freeze is May 15th first is October 15th. Our last flow from Rabbit Brush begins after first frost. Have the same chilly nights you would have year round. And I have seen it snow on July 4th.
> I do not go into winter with small clusters. I did have one hive last year with a tiny cluster and they still survived to spring. That was a bad queen situation.
> I feed my bees going into fall so they have a full deep of bees and a full box of stores. My bees are still bringing in pollen. Thanks to the sage brush. I have heard that some beekeepers move their bees to Nevada in the late summer just to let them prep for winter. I found my bees bringing in pollen in February.
> Overall impression so far, strong colonies will survive. Your bees are not starving. They have food. They are freezing. There is a difference if you think about it.


Your input is duly noted, thank you. I believe that our climates are very similar. This year I have changed up my technique a little, I hope for the better. I plan to make summer splits in 2014 too. As previously noted this year I am open feeding pollen substitute and just put out a syrup feeder this month. The bees are not yet interested in the feeder which is strange because it is robbing season big time here.

I am sure I will think of more later thanks again for all of your valuable responses.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If they actually are starving Mt camp sugar right on the top bars will prevent it. Just a peak under the lid will let you see if they need more. Then If you let them run out that is beekeeper error.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

You could use follower boards in your regular deeps to make them narrower. Think of a solid wood frame that fits tight side to side and top to bottom without leaving beespace. Also you might make a candy board for this winter.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Weakened overwinter bees from mite parasitism...both during development and after often fail as you've described. It isn't uncommon to have heavily infested hives without seeing DWV.
So I'm sure I understand...you aren't doing mite counts?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

ccar2000 said:


> The bees are not yet interested in the feeder which is strange because it is robbing season big time here.


I have sen this reluctance to fed as well several times. as far as I can tell it is associated with cooler nights. I also suspect that if you feed sugar syrup and it cools down at night the bees will be slower to start taking it the following day. Nights below 50 seem to be a breaking point.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Believe me, I am keeping all of these ideas and notes for reference. Thanks again for sharing your ideas and experiences.



David LaFerney said:


> If they actually are starving Mt camp sugar right on the top bars will prevent it. Just a peak under the lid will let you see if they need more. Then If you let them run out that is beekeeper error.


Thank you for the tip David, others have recommended the Mt Camp method as well. I will make that part of my overwintering strategy, adding an empty super with sugar on a newspaper.



merince said:


> You could use follower boards in your regular deeps to make them narrower. Think of a solid wood frame that fits tight side to side and top to bottom without leaving beespace. Also you might make a candy board for this winter.


Okay, I could do that instead of using 8 or 5 frame equipment, right? 



beemandan said:


> Weakened overwinter bees from mite parasitism...both during development and after often fail as you've described. It isn't uncommon to have heavily infested hives without seeing DWV.
> So I'm sure I understand...you aren't doing mite counts?


Correct I am not doing mite counts, nor using miticides. I do treat for Nosema twice a year.



Daniel Y said:


> I have seen this reluctance to fed as well several times. as far as I can tell it is associated with cooler nights. I also suspect that if you feed sugar syrup and it cools down at night the bees will be slower to start taking it the following day. Nights below 50 seem to be a breaking point.


The feeder I have set up this year is a hive top feeder set on an empty deep box and bottom board. This is something new I am trying. We are still having day time temps in the 70s and in the 40s at night. I realize that the bees will not take the syrup when the temps drop into the 50s. I placed the open feeder in an area away from my hives that gets full sun. I realize now that I did it too late. Next year I will set it out earlier, maybe mid-August.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

I think you would be more successful using 5 frame equipment to overwinter in. Actually I am beginning to think that five frame equipment may be the best to overwinter in regardless of location. You will definitely have to watch closely for build-up in the spring to prevent swarming (if swarm prevention is important to you). But I believe that 5 frame equipment allows the bees to use the entire space inside the hive which in turn allows the cluster to use all of their stores and not leave the edges. Also when we reduce from 8 or 10 frame equipment to 5 frame late in the season we increase the size of the cluster in relationship to size of the box which I believe creates a better environment for success.

If your bees are only using the middle 5 or 6 frames in each box, and a few of those (maybe 3) go into winter as empty brood frames, with the current set-up, they are going into winter with approx. 6-9 frames of stores that they will actually use (even if they have 15-18 full frames of stores,the rest is useless if they are leaving it). So if you give them the 5 frame boxes and allow them to naturally "chimney up", I think you could be successful with 3 deep 5 frame boxes at the most. With 3 deep five frames you could have approx. 12 frames of "usable" stores ( if they go into winter with the same 3 empty brood frames) which gives you almost double the usable stores than what you have been getting.

Even though the set up I am suggesting gives you only approx. 12 frames of stores, and you current set-up gives you 15-18 frames of stores, if the bees are leaving 8-10 frames and not eating it, in the long run the 12 frames will be more effective.

Just my opinion...so take it with a grain of salt!


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I don't have a great deal of experience here, but will suggest the following:

Feed protein - unless you KNOW you have adequate pollen diversity and amounts, it's likely you have protein deficient bees going into winter and they are dying of protein starvation.

Treat for mites (MAQS -- formic acid -- would be my choice). If you get a huge mite fall, bingo. Check your deadouts for tiny white specks in the brood cells, too -- the bees will not be strong enough to clean them out. They are mite feces, diagnostic for PMS.

If you are not doing so, wrap your hives. A howling winter wind in the hive will keep them clustered more than if the air in there is still and warms up on sunny days, this will allow them better access to the combs at the sides.

Strong clusters will winter better than small weak ones, I think, and not really use much more honey. I don't think you are short on honey though, just the ability of the bees to use it.

Hopefully you can find a way to keep them going all winter with minor losses, you get much more honey that way.

Peter


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

NewJoe said:


> I think you would be more successful using 5 frame equipment to overwinter in. Actually I am beginning to think that five frame equipment may be the best to overwinter in regardless of location. You will definitely have to watch closely for build-up in the spring to prevent swarming (if swarm prevention is important to you). But I believe that 5 frame equipment allows the bees to use the entire space inside the hive which in turn allows the cluster to use all of their stores and not leave the edges. Also when we reduce from 8 or 10 frame equipment to 5 frame late in the season we increase the size of the cluster in relationship to size of the box which I believe creates a better environment for success.
> 
> If your bees are only using the middle 5 or 6 frames in each box, and a few of those (maybe 3) go into winter as empty brood frames, with the current set-up, they are going into winter with approx. 6-9 frames of stores that they will actually use (even if they have 15-18 full frames of stores,the rest is useless if they are leaving it). So if you give them the 5 frame boxes and allow them to naturally "chimney up", I think you could be successful with 3 deep 5 frame boxes at the most. With 3 deep five frames you could have approx. 12 frames of "usable" stores ( if they go into winter with the same 3 empty brood frames) which gives you almost double the usable stores than what you have been getting.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your well thought out advice Joe. I have read it through and thought it out but honestly, just don't think I want to do that much preparation moving in and out of 5-frame equipment. The strategy you describe sounds solid. Thank you. I think I am leaning towards sugar bricks or Mt Camp method.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Interesting thread. A dozen or more responses and IMO all are correct. Must be some kind of record. If you are satisfied with letting colonies die from mite effects, and that's your choice, learn to live with it.

Of the other responses, Mr. Palmer's suggestion of increasing young bee numbers (brood) in the early fall is likely your best bet. You should have two brood cycles of essentially a deep of brood in Sept. and Oct. in a double deep. Check it now and see what you have. The fact that they are working your dry protein supply vigorously now would add some credibility to that theme.

Walt


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

psfred said:


> I don't have a great deal of experience here, but will suggest the following:
> 
> Feed protein - unless you KNOW you have adequate pollen diversity and amounts, it's likely you have protein deficient bees going into winter and they are dying of protein starvation.
> 
> ...


Peter, this year (since August) I am free feeding pollen substitute, I tried feeding some store bought pollen from one of the beekeeping suppliers but they had nothing to do with that. They have been going through the "brood builder" dry substitute like crazy, they seem to be leaving some granular component of it behind, maybe it is sugar? Perhaps that will help with what you and others are recommending for protein. I think that they have pretty good natural pollen diversity and so they do have bee bread stores. I think you might be onto something as Daniel Y was saying they may be freezing as well. I suppose it would not hurt to be a little more proactive and wrap the hives this year. I do not treat for the mites but will take your advice on looking for the mite feces in any dead outs from this winter. Thanks for you help.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

ccar2000:
The posters above pretty much covered everything else. I recommended a follower board, so you can keep using your current equipment without ending up with a bunch of boxes that you cannot use throughout the whole year. In this way you can overwinter in a narrower box, expand it in spring, and be able to use all your boxes for harvest. Otherwise, you might end up with 5 frame "winter" boxes and 10 frame "summer" boxes.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

wcubed said:


> Interesting thread. A dozen or more responses and IMO all are correct. Must be some kind of record. If you are satisfied with letting colonies die from mite effects, and that's your choice, learn to live with it.
> 
> Of the other responses, Mr. Palmer's suggestion of increasing young bee numbers (brood) in the early fall is likely your best bet. You should have two brood cycles of essentially a deep of brood in Sept. and Oct. in a double deep. Check it now and see what you have. The fact that they are working your dry protein supply vigorously now would add some credibility to that theme.
> 
> Walt


Yes Walt, it certainly has been an educational thread. Received a lot of excellent advice from some heavy hitters (beekeepers with a lot of experience) and I am grateful to have such a resource available. I hope that others with similar scenarios are able to distill this information down to something that works in their individual climate and management technique.
With my work schedule I will not have an opportunity to do an inspection until Monday at the earliest. I have not done an inspection any deeper than lifting the lid, looking between frames and checking to see if they need another pollen patty in over a month. It has been robbing season here and breaking down a hive just gets them going. Sometimes it takes overnight for things to settle out. Thank goodness for robber screens! I have also had two usurpation swarm attempts on my strongest hive, once again, thanks for robber screens. Hopefully I can open the hives soon and it will be warm enough to do so.
I failed to mention that I have been feeding pollen patties since the beginning of August. Seems to me that the while the pollen patties do help build brood I am more interested in seeing the results of the open feeding of the pollen substitute. 
When you say "of essentially a deep of brood" does that mean a 10 frame brood nest of all stages between the two boxes or am I misinterpreting?


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

merince said:


> ccar2000:
> Otherwise, you might end up with 5 frame "winter" boxes and 10 frame "summer" boxes.


The Fatbeeman actually uses some five frame boxes all year long. I actually have 4 hives that are all five frame equipment and they are fine. I am actually considering going to more with just five frame equipment because of the weight (bad back), the eight frame stuff I use still gets very heavy for me. They will get too tall if you let them, but when needed I put supers on top and if it starts to get too tall, just pull a couple of boxes and extract.

Also I believe it is beneficial for everyone to have a certain amount of five frame boxes around for small swarms...splits...new hives...and weak hives. The availability of some five frame stuff makes it more convenient to meet almost any need you come up against in the bee yard.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

ccar,
By essentially brood, I mean the typical max bood and stores. In my 9 frame brood nest that's typically 5 frames of brood and a frame of pollen and a frame of honey at the outside on both sides. There are all kinds of variation between colonies but the average falls in that range.

In my area, by Aug, most colonies have settled on one deep or the other to rear fall bees. Normally, the bottom deep, but not always. 

Walt


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

NewJoe said:


> The Fatbeeman actually uses some five frame boxes all year long. I actually have 4 hives that are all five frame equipment and they are fine. I am actually considering going to more with just five frame equipment because of the weight (bad back), the eight frame stuff I use still gets very heavy for me. They will get too tall if you let them, but when needed I put supers on top and if it starts to get too tall, just pull a couple of boxes and extract.
> 
> Also I believe it is beneficial for everyone to have a certain amount of five frame boxes around for small swarms...splits...new hives...and weak hives. The availability of some five frame stuff makes it more convenient to meet almost any need you come up against in the bee yard.


Sounds good to me. I like the idea of harvesting five frames here and there. That would work out really well since I process my honey by crush 'n strain. You don't have to harvest full supers. I suppose you could put those five frame supers away in a safe place and put them on for winter stores if they were needed too. I do have a few USDA type of nuc boxes (with the reduced entrance and bottoms attached) just for the tasks that you mention. I was thinking of employing them for the summer splits and then hive them once the queen got going laying brood, would that be a bad time to move them from a nuc to a full hive? Sometime between late summer and mid fall.




wcubed said:


> ccar,
> By essentially brood, I mean the typical max bood and stores. In my 9 frame brood nest that's typically 5 frames of brood and a frame of pollen and a frame of honey at the outside on both sides. There are all kinds of variation between colonies but the average falls in that range.
> 
> In my area, by Aug, most colonies have settled on one deep or the other to rear fall bees. Normally, the bottom deep, but not always.
> ...


I think I got got it! so in my case, September to October I should have 6-7 frames of brood from two laying cycles (capped and uncapped) in my 11-frame hive body wether or not they are single or double deeps with pollen and honey stores in the outermost frames. These will be my winter bees. Ideally they should be in the lower box with honey above as well, right?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

The mention above about small size boxes. I wanted to point out one thing about making them. I make 5 frame nucs. But in doing so I also realize they cost almost as much as a full size hive. the bottom board and outer cover are only half the plywood. but the savings on the box itself is only the wood for one end. Just keep that in mind if you decide to use them. they are basically a very expensive alternative. They take exactly the same amount of time to make. and they save only roughly 1/4 the material. Follower boards start sounding pretty good if you think about that for very long.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

If all the space they have to work with is a single deep, the brood will have less volume and the stores more volume. The colony makes an effort to balance the population to stores ratio. Anything else would be suicidal.
Walt


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Much thanks to you all. This thread has helped me with several updates/modifications to my broodnest management plan for winter 2013 and going forward.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> The mention above about small size boxes. I wanted to point out one thing about making them. I make 5 frame nucs. But in doing so I also realize they cost almost as much as a full size hive. the bottom board and outer cover are only half the plywood. but the savings on the box itself is only the wood for one end. Just keep that in mind if you decide to use them. they are basically a very expensive alternative. They take exactly the same amount of time to make. and they save only roughly 1/4 the material. Follower boards start sounding pretty good if you think about that for very long.


My point exactly! The cost and the time involved are about the same per box, but you need double the boxes. Also, those nucs get really tall in a hurry.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

Wouldn't it be kinda tricky to get follower boards fitted properly to be able to stack boxes more than one high? The purpose for the 5 frame boxes is not to save materials, but provide a way to give the bees a narrower and taller box so they could chimney up and use all the available stores as they move up and still stay in the cluster and not starve out.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

NewJoe said:


> Wouldn't it be kinda tricky to get follower boards fitted properly to be able to stack boxes more than one high? The purpose for the 5 frame boxes is not to save materials, but provide a way to give the bees a narrower and taller box so they could chimney up and use all the available stores as they move up and still stay in the cluster and not starve out.


Not really. Stack the boxes one on top of the other. Push the follower board against the frames. If your boxes and frame numbers are the same (standard) they will line up. If you really want to be OCD about alignment, you could use a straight board to line them up.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

Do the follower boards actually extend all the way so there is no gap between the follower boards as you move up? Would they actually meet from the top of one box to the bottom of the next? If so...I guess the follower boards would work just about as well as the five frame boxes...but then it still brings up another worry in my mind...SHB...wouldn't the follower boards give the SHB a crack to run and hide in? I am asking because I have not used follower boards before, and I really do not know how well they fit inside of the box.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

NewJoe said:


> Do the follower boards actually extend all the way so there is no gap between the follower boards as you move up? Would they actually meet from the top of one box to the bottom of the next? If so...I guess the follower boards would work just about as well as the five frame boxes...but then it still brings up another worry in my mind...SHB...wouldn't the follower boards give the SHB a crack to run and hide in? I am asking because I have not used follower boards before, and I really do not know how well they fit inside of the box.


Yes, they should fit flush top to bottom and side to side and they do have "ears" like the frames, but the ears are thicker to make them flush with the top of the box. Think of them as moveable box wall. I don't know about SHB, because by the time they show up in my region, the bees occupy the whole box.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

Hi,

I have a nuc in a single deep started in June. I tried to move them in a 5 over 5 box but it was too late to do that. They arranged themselves for the single. I realized only after seing the cluster formed inside the second box and still having frames of honey bellow them. So I moved them back, reduced them to 7 frames and added another box with 7 undrawn frames bellow(I don't have other)... just for ladder. I also added same kind of follower board - simple cardboard to keep them warm.
So if we were to use the space vertically probably we should do this right from the starting point of the nucleus: have the brood,pollen, honey frames in the first box and after a while adding the second box above it. Splitting a 10 frame box in half vertically could also lead to hosting 2 families in the same hive.
I'm not very sure about the whole procedure, how is best, as I have almost no experience.

Cristian


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

cristianNiculae said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a nuc in a single deep started in June. I tried to move them in a 5 over 5 box but it was too late to do that. They arranged themselves for the single. I realized only after seing the cluster formed inside the second box and still having frames of honey bellow them. So I moved them back, reduced them to 7 frames and added another box with 7 undrawn frames bellow(I don't have other)... just for ladder. I also added same kind of follower board - simple cardboard to keep them warm.
> So if we were to use the space vertically probably we should do this right from the starting point of the nucleus: have the brood,pollen, honey frames in the first box and after a while adding the second box above it. Splitting a 10 frame box in half vertically could also lead to hosting 2 families in the same hive.
> ...


Hi Cristian:

Cardboard might work in the winter, but the bees tend to chew it, so it is not going to be useful long term or when dividing 2 colonies. You really need some kind of wood or masonite divider that is bee tight. In my experience, 2 colonies in the same box work, but again, the divider must be tight or they merge and the queens duke it out.

I tried it last year and this year switched to separate nuc boxes that I have side by side and they share the same telescoping cover. I prefer this setup, because it is easier to move indivdual colonies as needed. In the previous setup, I had to grab the frames and make sure the queen did not get left behind. In this one, I grab the whole box with the bottom board and inner board. This also allows me to sort the colonies so that colonies of similar strength are neighbors. Separate nuc boxes or a deep with a follower board (just one side occupied) just work better for my management style.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

merince said:


> Hi Cristian:
> 
> Cardboard might work in the winter, but the bees tend to chew it, so it is not going to be useful long term or when dividing 2 colonies. You really need some kind of wood or masonite divider that is bee tight. In my experience, 2 colonies in the same box work, but again, the divider must be tight or they merge and the queens duke it out.
> 
> I tried it last year and this year switched to separate nuc boxes that I have side by side and they share the same telescoping cover. I prefer this setup, because it is easier to move indivdual colonies as needed. In the previous setup, I had to grab the frames and make sure the queen did not get left behind. In this one, I grab the whole box with the bottom board and inner board. This also allows me to sort the colonies so that colonies of similar strength are neighbors. Separate nuc boxes or a deep with a follower board (just one side occupied) just work better for my management style.


Yes cardboard - cheap solution only for winter not for separating colonies and regular boxes with follower board instead of nuc boxes so we don't waste the wood. I think this is best for the "lazy beekeeper" 

How do you guys provide the second brood box for the nucleus started in a single deep? Do you add it on top or bottom? Do you add all frames at once? What's the most common practice?

In our country where using only a dadant deep box(not me) beekeepers forms the nucleus on let's say 4 frames and follower board, then as the nucleus expands they keep adding foundation behind the last of the built frames. From what I've noticed this summer: giving too much frames at once will lead to incomplete frames instead of full frames of honey to overwinter with.

Cristian


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Cristian:

I've noticed that in my location, the early spring manipulations on singles and nucs need to be performed about 1 to 2 weeks later than those on the double deep colonies. For the nucs, I put them in singles with a follower board and then add frames on either sides until they have the box full, then super as needed. It does slow them down if they get a bunch of space early in the spring.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I've noticed that if the colony is expanding I can get away with doubling the space they have. So a 5 frame nuc can be placed in a 10 frame box for example. as long as they continue to expand once that first box is full I then add a second one. again double the space they have. But I have noticed this can be a bit dicey. do it at the wrong time and the bees will avoid the empty space entirely.

In a typical or I should say textbook 5 frame nuc you have 3 frames of brood nest in the center of the box. with two frames of honey toward the outside on each side. When I move these frames to a 10 frame the brood nest is placed in the center of the new box. a frame of drawn comb or foundation is put at the outside edge of the nest and the frames of honey are placed next to those. This as far as i can tell expanded the hive space to 7 frames as far as the bees are concerned. I am not sure the bees are paying attention to where the wall of the box is as much as they are paying attention to where that frame of honey is. As long as it is only one or two frames at a time they will take to them readily and expand the brood nest onto those two new frames. I have repeatedly sen them draw and fill two fraems in three days. I then move those two outside honey frames another frame toward the outside. in another few days the colony is 9 frames. I then move the final frame at one side in leaving a full frame of honey at each side of the new ten frame box. It is also at this time I add another box on top of them. Another way I determine when to add the next box is when the first is 80% full. For me they can have comb drawn on all 10 frames and still not be 80% full. full comb also has to do with it's depth and how much they have stored in it.

I did this last spring with two 5 frame double deep nucs and had both of them to two deeps and two medium supers filled in less than 30 days. Both produced about 50 lbs of harvested honey.

I now have 11 nucs going into this winter and will do it again next spring. I will see if my method holds up.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

This year I've added the second brood box bellow - undersupering. I don't think it's a good idea for my location, not the fact that I've undersupperd but providing all frames at once in the new deep chamber. All this resulted in some untouched frames and partially filled frames. I don't have a spectacular flow except for the one in Spring on black locust and apples.
I'm thinking of adding frames gradually(also for the honey supper) for the next year. I want to use deeps all the way, one single frame type. I know it's more work but for 2 hives that I have it's my pleasure.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I call it "Opening the Sides" of the brood nest: Placing an new empty frame in-between the edge of the brood nest and honey frames (or the edge of the box). You can do both sides at once.

See: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?278383-Testers-wanted-Opening-the-sides


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