# I need help designing a pump system for filling inside feeders



## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Here's the owner manual for the pump.

http://www.manualsdir.com/manuals/3...rass-gear-pump-1_2-suction-and-discharge.html


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## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

My first pump I used a similar system and it failed miserably, 400 miles from home while trying to feed colonies. I use a 3" trash pump with pvc reductions to a 1" hose. I use a pool hose to go from the pump to the syrup tank and it works well.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Thanks Matt.

How long have you been using that setup? Do you have any trouble with the pump running in between filling frames? Will it blow out anything if it runs for an extended amount of time? Will it work to feed 400-600 hives a day with any trouble?


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

1. Yes it will work.
2. Get a honda gx. 4.5, 5.5 hp range. 
3. I will measure my pulley tomorrow.
4. You will need a brass 3/4 or 1 "adjustable pressure relief valve. Will take some pics of my pump tomorrow.
5. No filter. Any bees/ bugs that get inside the tote will get shredded by the gears.

Gear pumps are the way to go. No need to prime and has no trouble pumping straight HFCS 55.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Why don't you use the same kind of pump Mann Lake does? A sump pump? Mine has no pulleys. I have no filter between the tank and the pump. I don't try to get trash in the tank either. I try to keep it out and mostly do and have had no problems so far.

Couplers and hose to go between the tank and the pump can be bought at any decent ag supply store. And a good rubber hose to use from the pump to the feeders can be found there too. A simple shutoff valve is good. I have the handle from Mann Lake and if it doesn't get cleaned after use it gets hard and the handle will bend.

You DIYers can probably build a system cheaply enough, but I buy what I can't build and saves me the frustration. Ihave never had any problems w/my Mann Lake feeding system.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

RAK said:


> 1. Yes it will work.
> 2. Get a honda gx. 4.5, 5.5 hp range.
> 3. I will measure my pulley tomorrow.
> 4. You will need a brass 3/4 or 1 "adjustable pressure relief valve. Will take some pics of my pump tomorrow.
> ...




Thanks RAK. I'm looking forward to seeing what you've done.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Why don't you use the same kind of pump Mann Lake does? A sump pump? Mine has no pulleys. I have no filter between the tank and the pump. I don't try to get trash in the tank either. I try to keep it out and mostly do and have had no problems so far.
> 
> Couplers and hose to go between the tank and the pump can be bought at any decent ag supply store. And a good rubber hose to use from the pump to the feeders can be found there too. A simple shutoff valve is good. I have the handle from Mann Lake and if it doesn't get cleaned after use it gets hard and the handle will bend.
> 
> You DIYers can probably build a system cheaply enough, but I buy what I can't build and saves me the frustration. Ihave never had any problems w/my Mann Lake feeding system.



It's all about pinching pennies for me. I used a pump very similar to this one and it worked ok till I started running thicker syrup. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Flotec-1-6-HP-Submersible-Utility-Pump-FP0S1300X/100178274. It fit right inside the top of a tote with a good push and as long as you have the hose to pull it up with you were in good luck.


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## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

Beesohappy, my guys feed 400 colonies in less than 4 hours.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

Beesohappy what heavy thicker syrup? Was you using?.


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## Bill Russell (Aug 12, 2006)

I Just set up syrup pump. I would recommend saving yourself time and get David Bradshaw's already set pump. I would have gotten pump from him if I shipping hadn't been an issue. If you price out the components his price is very reasonable. His website is beebotanical. Honda 6:1 gear reduction with lovejoy coupler is way to go. I got 4.8 hp.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

RAK said:


> 1. Yes it will work.
> 2. Get a honda gx. 4.5, 5.5 hp range.
> 3. I will measure my pulley tomorrow.
> 4. You will need a brass 3/4 or 1 "adjustable pressure relief valve. Will take some pics of my pump tomorrow.
> ...


Yes, I have a similar setup and its our syrup pump of choice. We just drop the suction hose (taped together with the relief return hose) into the top of the tank though occasionally it may lose prime if drained completely.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

My-smokepole said:


> Beesohappy what heavy thicker syrup? Was you using?.


2:1 Fall feeding


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I have one of the burcam gear pumps( a size smaller I think). I run it off a 1 hp electric motor here at home filling feeder jugs.Works great for thick syrup. As noted you need a pressure relief valve. I just run a short hose back into the tote.I use a gasoline type nozzle for filling the jugs(they have a small opening), but had trouble with it occasionally sticking open. So I screwed a ball valve to it and wired the nozzle trigger open.Much better. You should just build one out of pvc to begin with.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

loggermike said:


> I have one of the burcam gear pumps( a size smaller I think). I run it off a 1 hp electric motor here at home filling feeder jugs.Works great for thick syrup. As noted you need a pressure relief valve. I just run a short hose back into the tote.I use a gasoline type nozzle for filling the jugs(they have a small opening), but had trouble with it occasionally sticking open. So I screwed a ball valve to it and wired the nozzle trigger open.Much better. You should just build one out of pvc to begin with.



Good ideas Mike. I'll follow your lead and more than likely do the same thing to solve the back pressure when the ball valves shut. Did you run a "T" off the filler hose back to the tote? 

RAK mentioned a brass relief valve. I'll look into that also.

Bill Russell- I looked at David Bradshaw's pump. Looks nice. Looks like he's made it to run two filling lines off it. I like the lovejoy coupler system. Is the motor he's running ment to kick down the rpm so the pumps not running to fast? If I don't run a lovejoy coupler and use pulleys instead, can I slow the pump down by running larger pulleys?


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## beenut46 (Nov 12, 2011)

One tip I did was make a filling wand with a 12 inch length of 3/4 metal pipe then put a 3/4 ball valve then a 3 ft length of 3/4 pipe. This will save your back.
When we get to yard ,lids are moved 2 inches to outside exposing the inside feeders, then I feed with someone following me putting lids back on.i use a tote with a trashpump from haborfeight with a bypass valve form Tractor Supply.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

I run the motor at mid rpm. Rpm controls volume and I set pressure between 60-80 psi. The first pump I built had belts, jack shaft and pillow block bearings to many things to go wrong. I also make a filling nozzle but the valve is at the end of the filler no drip.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

davidsbees said:


> I run the motor at mid rpm. Rpm controls volume and I set pressure between 60-80 psi. The first pump I built had belts, jack shaft and pillow block bearings to many things to go wrong. I also make a filling nozzle but the valve is at the end of the filler no drip.


By running the motor at a lower rpm will it automatically slow the pump down which slows the flow down also or do I still need a relief valve? Do all small engines have this feature? My plan was to get a cheap pressure washer that has a bad pump so I could use the motor and cart and make my own pump on wheels.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Thanks for the heads up. I like the filling wand idea.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

You need a relief valve or you will blow the hose.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

davidsbees said:


> You need a relief valve or you will blow the hose.


Where does the relief valve go? If I splice a T off the filling line and run it back into the tote do I still need a relief valvue. Is a relief valve to lower the pressure even for filling frames?


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

The relief valve goes after the pump you can vent back into the intake or into the tank I like the tank to keep other ingredients in suspension and with a relief valve you can maintain and choose your pressure


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

beesohappy said:


> Where does the relief valve go? If I splice a T off the filling line and run it back into the tote do I still need a relief valvue. Is a relief valve to lower the pressure even for filling frames?


Yes, put the T directly off of the discharge side of the pump, an alternate route for the syrup to take when your valve is shut off is a necessity as those types of gear pumps build up tremendous pressure. If you dont put a pressure relief valve in the return line then the syrup will just primarily flow to the point of least resistance meaning sometimes you might get adequate flow to your filling valve and sometimes you might not.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

If you direct the pressure relief valve back back to the intake side of pump dont you stand a chance of overheating your pump?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

BMAC said:


> If you direct the pressure relief valve back back to the intake side of pump dont you stand a chance of overheating your pump?


The bypass hose should be placed back into the syrup tank. We just tape it together with the suction hose although I prefer to make the return hose considerably shorter so that you can get some mixing action action as it recirculates and does just continue to recirculate primarily what syrup is sitting on the bottom of the tank.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

No, not enough friction and every time you fill a feeder you get fresh cool syrup. It's not like a pressure washer that is running at high rpm and high pressure even with a unloaded they will over heat and a wreck the pump. I plumb the return into the totes lid's
View attachment 15469
2" bung with cam locks. I have seen return lines into the top and no lid with 4" of dead floating in the syrup not good. If you want just one hose then returning it to the intake will work.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

davidsbees said:


> No, not enough friction and every time you fill a feeder you get fresh cool syrup. It's not like a pressure washer that is running at high rpm and high pressure even with a unloaded they will over heat and a wreck the pump. I plumb the return into the totes lid's
> View attachment 15469
> 2" bung with cam locks. I have seen return lines into the top and no lid with 4" of dead floating in the syrup not good. If you want just one hose then returning it to the intake will work.


Is this what your talking about David http://camlockcouplings.blogspot.com/ for running a hose back into the tank from the top? I like the recirculating/mixing function this will give you.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> The bypass hose should be placed back into the syrup tank. We just tape it together with the suction hose although I prefer to make the return hose considerably shorter so that you can get some mixing action action as it recirculates and does just continue to recirculate primarily what syrup is sitting on the bottom of the tank.


Jim is this better than hooking the pump up to the ball valve on the bottom of the tank? I like the recirculating/mixing function you'll get by running the syrup back into the top off the tank. Especially if your using essential oils or medications in your feed.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

RAK said:


> 1. Yes it will work.
> 2. Get a honda gx. 4.5, 5.5 hp range.
> 3. I will measure my pulley tomorrow.
> 4. You will need a brass 3/4 or 1 "adjustable pressure relief valve. Will take some pics of my pump tomorrow.
> ...



Hi RAK. Did you happen to get a chance to measure the pulleys your using or pictures. I'm sure this is the last thing on your mind with almond pollination right around the corner.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

The first thing you need to know is DO NOT WASTE the extra money on the Honda engine!
The Harbor Fright  6.5 engine is identical to the Honda 5.5.
The crankshafts, pistons, heads carb, EVERYTHING is identical and interchangeable.
The Harbor Fright  engine, if maintained and operated properly, will last exactly the same as you would experience from a Honda.
How do I know?
I have a friend that owns a generator shop.
When folks bring in Honda engines, for serious rebuilds he installs Harbor Fright  parts and has had exactly zero negative trends.
He handed me a Honda crank and a Harbor Fright crank; they are the same.










And speaking of generators:
There are a million trashed generators setting around.
Find your local junk shop or call around and look for a generator frame.
I traded a 3lb jar of honey for the one in the picture.
The framework protects your machine, aids in carrying, and ties down on your truck with ease.









The large shieve is 6" the small is 2".
When working alone with a 24' hose, I run the engine slightly below half throttle.
With two hoses and two people, run the throttle up a little above half and dial back the system pressure.









DO NOT plumb the pressure relief outflow back to the inlet side of the pump!!!!!
Do as has been discussed and run a separate return hose to the cap of your tank.
And DO NOT forget to loosen the cap while pumping or your tank will collapse!!
OR, you could do something stupid like I did last summer with this very pump:
I had two tanks on the truck and pumped from one with the return hose going to the other. :doh:

At the end of the year,turn off the fuel valve, drain the carb, top off the tank with stabilized gas, change the oil, pull the cord slowly and place the engine on the compression stroke, and close the choke.
Next year after turning on the gas, the engine will start on the first pull!


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## RowdyFreeman (Apr 24, 2014)

Depends on what you want to spend but the Dadant pump works well. I bought it, plumbed it in to a 150 gallon plastic tank, mounted both to a pallet. At 90 psi it will pump about 1 gallon in 15 seconds and runs all day long. I have a friends that's ran the same setup for several years. Total setup under $2,000.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

HarryVanderpool said:


> DO NOT plumb the pressure relief outflow back to the inlet side of the pump!!!!!











Ive used these for a while with no problems. Never needed to run it back to totes since I never mix anything. Pump never overheats and Honda still runs like new. Also never had any parts exploding from pressure despite the fact that my pump is 3/4" while relief is only half inch and runs right back in. I use 1/2" clear plastic tube to run into main line that way I see the how much the relief valve lets thru when nozzle open. Pumps a gal feeder in 12 secs of straight HFCS and if thinned pumps 7-8 secs.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Also I wouldn't recommend pvc. All of our new pumps are brass and galvanized.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Thanks to everyone for posting and for sending pictures. Sure makes life a little easier learning from someone whose been there and done that so thank you all.

Harry I like the system your using. Self contained and I could see how you could incorporate a hose holding area on the top of the cage. I also like the ball valve just before the pump so when your done and you've disconnected the pump your able to minimize the mess.

does anyone use a hose reel. I was hunting around and found this one. http://www.zoro.com/i/G3250536/?category=7490 It's price but looks like it might be cool to mount next to the pump and motor. It might make it to heavy to pick up with just one person thou.


I ordered two of the pumps (just in case I mess one up) so I'll let you all know how it goes when I get to making it in a month or so.

Thanks again for all your ideas.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

I just use hose racks low tech don't wear out or restrict flow. Here is a picture of two pumps going to Canada and another pump I use to drench colonies. I still use the original pump I made 15 years ago the only part I've change is the spider in the lovejoy coupler.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

David bees what is the gray Silver looking thing on the end of your wand?


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

Here is an interesting idea. 
Our mentor built two syrup tanks using old propane tanks or some other pressure tank. They installed a hole in the top for a high pressure cap, another one for a bleed valve, and another for an air-hose bib. In the bottom they installed an engine block heater. There is a sight tube on the side to help estimate how much is left in the tank (dont leave it open when the pressure is on). Then, mounted to one side is a gas powered air compressor to pressurize the contents of the tank. On the other end is the hose reel, with a simple gate valve to stop the syrup flow. The whole deal (minus the hose) is painted black to help keep it warm during the day. 
I am not entirely sure why they chose to go this route instead of pumps. I assume it has to do with pump reliability or what equipment was available way back when. I have not seen very many similar setups and I am sure there is a reason for it. I am sure it is not the cheapest option short term, but if you can do your own fabricating and track down a cheap tank... 
I thought I had a picture but I am having trouble finding it, sorry.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

davidsbees said:


> I just use hose racks low tech don't wear out or restrict flow. Here is a picture of two pumps going to Canada and another pump I use to drench colonies. I still use the original pump I made 15 years ago the only part I've change is the spider in the lovejoy coupler.
> View attachment 15520
> [/Q
> 
> ...


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

I have a 20 mesh screen filter to keep little things out of the tee jet. I drench a vitamin mineral and a amino acid mix. The spray wand does not have enough volume to use as a feed nozzle. I've tried to up load better pic but all I get is "fail to up load"


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

"two pumps going to Canada"

Lucky fella I say. 

Jean-Marc


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

I use a 3/4 ball valve for the full nozzle in the back ground you can see the extended fill nozzle.






just need to shrink wrap and add the ship label.


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## MNbees (May 27, 2013)

Beesource is falling apart! enough of this thread about pumping syrup, how boring.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

MNbees said:


> Beesource is falling apart! enough of this thread about pumping syrup, how boring.


I know. I just came in from, uh, pumping syrup to see whats new . Can't we talk about nosema or something?


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

loggermike said:


> I know. I just came in from, uh, pumping syrup to see whats new . Can't we talk about nosema or something?


I know, how about moving bees in the fog, that been fun the last couple days.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

MNbees said:


> Beesource is falling apart! enough of this thread about pumping syrup, how boring.


This thread is about pumping syrup don't want to be off topic . Loggermike can start one on nosema if he wants.


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

Our setup looks like what you want to do. It was originally set up so it would stab into a receiver hitch and I modified it and put the handles so we could grab it easy and set it on a pallet. The handles also help with controlling the hoses. 

Input comes in from the left, top goes to the filler wand, and right is the return to the tank. The regulator controls the flow. Camlock couplers are used on the hose going from the tote to the pump.

Top view looking at pulley and bearing setup.

The wand is made from copper tubing and a ball valve.

The pump was not flushed one time and the syrup turned to sugar and locked up. I took the gears out, flushed it real well with a lot of water. Then I used canola oil to lube up the gears and put it back together. Before you put it up for the season, unhook from the tote and stick in a r gallon bucket of clean water and flush the syrup out.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

And a good thread it has been . I learned a couple of helpful things. I really don't want to talk about nosema


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is a previous thread that discusses using "air powered" syrup tanks, and includes links to some _Keith J _photos:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?289130-Air-feeding-system


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## bergmansupplies (Feb 6, 2015)

Use a 1 1/2 inch gear pump connected with a 5 horse powered engine with a horizontal shaft with a 6 to 1 gear reduction and all u need to figure out is your pull sizes, I used that for over 20 years and ran 1000 hives


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## dennis crutchfield (Aug 5, 2016)

will a 2 inch semi trash pump work on frutose?


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