# Dry sugar on wintering inner cover?



## dkofoed (Feb 25, 2014)

For emergency stores (throughout the upcoming winter), can I just throw some dry sugar "in" the inner covers I have on my hives?

http://www.mannlakeltd.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=mannlake&Screen=SRCH&sType=1&Search=inner+cover#!WW-241/0/

Any reason that wouldn't work with those covers?


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## oldiron56 (Mar 9, 2009)

I make up a shim rim 3/4",and lay a piece of newspaper right on the tops of the frames, pour the sugar on the paper, put the inner cover over the sugar. Make sure the piece of paper is smaller than the box so air can go around,up and out. It puts the sugar right where they need it when they reach the top of the frames. That`s how I do it anyway,,,,,,,,,Pete


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

If your bees are clustered as tightly as mine do, they will not find sugar on an inner cover, they will starve the half inch away. They do seem to find the ambition to chew thru the newspaper on the topbar and find a ten pound sugar cube poured in a three inch feeder rim. $100's of sugar puts that on all my thirty hives. If it saves one I am ahead of the game. It keeps a bunch stronger than they would otherwise be and absorbs a lot of moisture that doesn't melt and drip back down on the cluster.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

dkofoed said:


> For emergency stores (throughout the upcoming winter), can I just throw some dry sugar "in" the inner covers I have on my hives?
> 
> http://www.mannlakeltd.com/mm5/merc...en=SRCH&sType=1&Search=inner+cover#!WW-241/0/
> 
> Any reason that wouldn't work with those covers?


Clustered bees won't be able to get to it.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Dry sugar make's a mess . Make sugar bricks much better .
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...for-sugar-blocks&highlight=sugar+block+recipe
Try dry sugar you'll see you won't like it when your cleaning things up in spring.
Just saying been there.:no:


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I agree with Glock. Also, if you follow Lauri's recipe the sugar will be inverted and bees can utilize it better.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Dry sugar isn't a mess if you do it right. Put newspaper on the top bars and dampen with a spray bottle. Put on a super. Pour in the sugar and dampen the top to harden it. Takes all of 2 minutes. I've never seen bees have any trouble utilizing it and they absolutely will build up on it in early spring. No cooking, no mess, straight from the sack to the hive. Ready when you need it.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

My bees must not mind non inverted dry white sugar as I don't do it anymore and they build up fine on it. Any one who feels the need to go thru the extra effort has my respect as a better kind of human being. I just see no difference now that I no longer am that better kind of human being.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ross, you don't need to dampen the sugar or the paper. The bees will do that themselves. I would bve afraid of punching a hole through dampened paper when pouring sugar onto it. I have fed tons of dry sugar and never dampened paper or sugar and have had the bees take it w/out fail.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

That's the way I learned to do it and you are probably right about it not being necessary. I like watching the little devils start feeding before I get the top back on when I dampen the edge


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The bees will do that themselves. I would bve afraid of punching a hole through dampened paper when pouring sugar onto it.

And I've seen them haul the sugar out the door when I didn't dampen it...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Maybe you didn't put it on at the right time of year? Maybe there was a hole in the paper and what they hauled out was on the bottom board.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>And I've seen them haul the sugar out the door when I didn't dampen it... 
And for of that reason I will never put dry sugar on a hive again.
I also make Laura’s sugar blocks.

I make my blocks thin so I can put them where ever I want them. I let them air dry and don’t use essential oils they are bad for bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I just bought a ton of fondant. I'm going to see what that's like.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I use lemon grass & wintergreen oils for scent/lure _*only*_-not a treatment or supplement.
A couple drops is all you need per 25# of sugar. It goes a long way & smells great. I agree adding more/overdosing could be a big mistake, especially since I am not_ really_ sure what's in the essential oils or where they actually originated from.

The cider vinegar however, _is_ added for the nutritional benefit/sugar inverting acids as well as a flavor enhancer that the bees love. Just like with protein patties, They can't benefit if they don't eat it. With the sugar block recipe, you'll find when temps are favorable, bees will be all over it. Don't forget the electrolytes and vitamins/ ascorbic and citric acids in the mix. More than just simple carbohydrates. 

When temps plummet, they'll be back down to the cluster where ever it is.

On a cold day, you wouldn't see a single bee on top this hive. (January photo)
This hive has plenty of honey. Maybe too much-it was somewhat honeybound come spring. But they still consumed the fortified sugar block because of it's palatability & easy access. Possibly the nutrient value is also an attractant.










In my area, any hard clustering temps are usually no longer than 3 weeks or so, with moderate temp breaks in between for feed access and possibly cleansing flights.

Remember, this is a NO COOK recipe. If you cook it or change the ingredients, your final results will be different and your block may turn out to be a big glob of goo.
You need to plan ahead as well, the blocks take a few days to dry & harden. But once dry, they are extremely easy to handle, store and quick to install.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...for-sugar-blocks&highlight=sugar+block+recipe


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Maybe there was a hole in the paper and what they hauled out was on the bottom board.

Another reason to spray it... it doesn't run through a hole in the paper "like sand through an hourglass"


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

The newspaper got wet from the snow melt, but I ususally put in on dry.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I've never seem them haul it out when I dampen it. And I always see them actively feeding on it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I just slapped slabs of fondant on 40 hives. They won't be hauling that stuff out.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I just slapped slabs of fondant on 40 hives. They won't be hauling that stuff out.


:thumbsup: I like fondant, particularly on overwintering nucs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I thought it was going to be softer than it is. I'm going to get a blister cutting the cube into slabs w/ my hive tool. Maybe I shoulkd get a sharpened flat shovel. How do you cut yours, Cam.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I use a hive tool also, just keep dipping it in water so it doesn't stick so much to the hive tool. I'm going to build a cutting tool like this one.
http://vimeo.com/19594064#at=3


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I just slapped slabs of fondant on 40 hives. They won't be hauling that stuff out.


Did you wrap the fondant in wax paper to keep it from drying out at all?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No, Fishman. Won't the bees eat it up before it gets hard? Would wax paper on top of it be a good idea? The guy I got it from didn't use wax paper and he uses tons of it.

I wonder why there are tons available? Does it get left out on the dock somewhere and get rained on or chewed by rodents and pooped on by birds, so the whole pallet has to be tossed out?


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

I tried fondant the winter before last without any wrapper on it. I ended up pulling most of it off at the end of the winter and it was hard as a rock and the bees had eaten very little of it. I bought some more to try this winter and will be wrapping it in wax paper in the hope that it will stay soft and usable for the bees.

Where are the "tons available"? I have had to buy it from the local restaurant supply, and it isn't cheap (but cheaper than losing hives!)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bought mine from another beekeeper. Don't know where he got it from. The label says The Bronx I think. Don't have it close by.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> The label says The Bronx I think.


Where it "fell" off a truck :lookout:


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Fishman43 said:


> Did you wrap the fondant in wax paper to keep it from drying out at all?


 
I wrap mine loosely in wax paper. Helps keep it moist.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> >Maybe there was a hole in the paper and what they hauled out was on the bottom board.
> 
> Another reason to spray it... it doesn't run through a hole in the paper "like sand through an hourglass"


I agree with MB on this. I've seen it run right down through the bees onto the ground. I always spray the paper and also spray the sugar in about 1 inch layers. I've never seen a problem doing it that way. Super quick and easy.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

AstroBee said:


> I always spray the paper and also spray the sugar in about 1 inch layers.


I spray the sugar once I layer it on the paper. The paper will draw the water to it....... To each his own....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That's for sure. I don't spray at all.

"Everything works if you let it."


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It probably depends on the humidity in your area and how you handle hive moisture. I have found that a lot of the sugar stays dry and will run down into the frames if I dont dampen the paper real good and spray some on the sugar. I use top entrance and shavings quilts with the top cover shimmed up. I will not be putting near as much sugar on as I found they used very little of it. They did play in it though!


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

dkofoed said:


> For emergency stores (throughout the upcoming winter), can I just throw some dry sugar "in" the inner covers I have on my hives?
> 
> Any reason that wouldn't work with those covers?


 To answer your question directly. Yes, it will work. Bees are far more intelligent than we may think. I've been putting granulated sugar on top of my inner covers for over fifty years. And what they don't use, I pour into large bags and turn it into 1:1 feed. Putting sugar on paper right above the frames is like an open invitation to have ants crawling all over your apiaries. It's one of the causes for ant problems later. OMTCW


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I have at times just placed 5 lb bags of sugar (that were stored in my garage and got hard as rocks) directly on the top bars. The bees ate thru the paper to the sugar.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Cedar Hill said:


> To answer your question directly. Yes, it will work. Bees are far more intelligent than we may think. I've been putting granulated sugar on top of my inner covers for over fifty years. And what they don't use, I pour into large bags and turn it into 1:1 feed. Putting sugar on paper right above the frames is like an open invitation to have ants crawling all over your apiaries. It's one of the causes for ant problems later. OMTCW


How do the bees get to the sugar on the inner cover when they are clustered below? Does the cluster move up onto the inner cover? If so, that seems hard on the bees making them extend the cluster off the frames. 

Keep in mind that (at least from my perspective) this is emergency feeding, or insurance feed. I don't use this as the primary way to bulk up colonies for winter. I believe that syrup is far superior for that. 

No offense, but your assessment of "open invitation to have ants crawling all over your apiaries" is not consistent with any thing I've observed. I've been doing this for 10 years and don't see ants in my colonies. The time of year that you apply dry sugar is when ants are not very active, so again, I just don't see how the issue you raise can be a problem.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

As an alternative to buying fondant I tried placing bags of hardened sugar over the openings of inner covers. After the first winter "trial" I felt that the "SugarBags" had worked *fairly* well. After the intense winter of 2013-14, I am convinced that it's not an alternative to fondant which I have used with success over the inner covers...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

AstroBee said:


> How do the bees get to the sugar on the inner cover when they are clustered below? Does the cluster move up onto the inner cover? If so, that seems hard on the bees making them extend the cluster off the frames.
> 
> Keep in mind that (at least from my perspective) this is emergency feeding, or insurance feed. I don't use this as the primary way to bulk up colonies for winter. I believe that syrup is far superior for that.


Agreed all around. Having the sugar on newspaper placed right on top of the top bars puts it right where the bees can get to it. All they have to do is chew through the paper, which, the way I feed it, gets dampened by the bee's respiration or wicked into the paper from rain or humidity. This method of feeding is an emergency insurance policy to get bees another month through Winter. It does not work well at putting on weight.

And like Astro wrote but in my words, "Ants? What ants? Ones in down jackets?"


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## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

Fondant works great. We flop the 50# block out on a piece of cardboard and cut it into 10# slabs with a regular flat harden spade. Then plastic bag it to keep it soft for the bees. We cut a 1" strip out of the side that is placed on the topbars. This great idea came from Murray Macgregor via Allen Dicks web page. We used to use a knife or hive tool. What a pain.
Nick


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> I just slapped slabs of fondant on 40 hives. They won't be hauling that stuff out.


Seems early to be applying fondant...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Gotta do things when you can quite often.


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## tacomabees (May 2, 2013)

I've used Laurie's recipe's with good success. Our local club just published this from one of the members. I've not tried it yet, but plan on making a batch to see how it works....it comes out like "play dough", soft but not brittle. I may substitute a small portion of the water with apple cider vinegar and a couple of drops of lemon grass oil...looks pretty interesting though. You could roll it out pretty easy into a 1/2 inch sheet...one beek said she uses her Kitchen aid and could triple the recipe without to much trouble. 

I'd use a screened 3/4 spacer and put it directly on the frames on my hives with insulated lids or just a 3/4 spacer and inner cover with lid if not insulated.

Ingredients: (don’t exceed 6 cups for this recipe..too hard to handle when you begin the “cream” work. And use any pot with a handle..not the big kettle pots..those are too big.)
•2 cups granulated sugar
•1/2 cup water
•2 tbsp light corn syrup

Preparation:

1. Prepare your workstation by setting a large baking sheet on a sturdy counter or table top, and sprinkling it lightly with water. 

2. Combine the sugar, water, and corn syrup in a small/medium saucepan over medium-high heat. Stir until the sugar dissolves, then cover the pan and allow the sugar syrup to boil for 2-3 minutes.

3. Remove the lid, and continue to cook the syrup, without stirring, until it reaches 240 degrees. (a little lower temp seems to make the fondant softer…230-235)

4. Pour the sugar syrup onto the prepared baking sheet. Allow it to sit at room temperature for several minutes. After 2-3 minutes (sometimes a bit longer), lightly touch the syrup with a fingertip. When it is warm but not hot, it is ready to be worked. 

5. Dampen a metal spatula or dough scraper with water, and use the scraper to push the syrup into a pile in the middle of the sheet. 

6. Using a dampened plastic spatula or wooden spoon, begin to “cream,” or work, the fondant in a figure-8 pattern. Continually scrape the fondant into the center, draw a figure-8, then scrape it together again. At first the fondant will be very clear and fluid, but it will gradually become more opaque and creamy. After 5-10 minutes, the fondant will become very stiff, crumbly, and hard to manipulate. 

7. Once the fondant reaches this state, moisten your hands and begin kneading it into a ball like bread dough. As you knead, the fondant will begin to come together and will get softer and smoother. Stop kneading once your fondant is a smooth ball without lumps. 

8. If it is stiff, you can always knead it by hand on a surface dusted with powdered sugar, until it is easy to manage. This recipe produces about 3/4 lb fondant. I make burger size patties, with parchment paper between them and freeze them. 

Just place patty over your inner cover hole and use a 2 inch spacer box around the patty; put the lid on top and check about every 2 weeks. This reduces disturbing the bees by lifting off the inner cover and placing directly on the top bars. Sometimes the patties will be hard but that’s ok. The patties help reduce a little moisture when placed over the inner cover hole.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

> This recipe produces about 3/4 lb fondant.


It's not worth the time and effort to attempt to make baker's fondant. 

Try it, I'm sure you'll agree.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

BeeCurious said:


> It's not worth the time and effort to attempt to make baker's fondant.
> 
> Try it, I'm sure you'll agree.


I can make 40- 3# sugar blocks in that amount of time.

For all the effort it takes to make fondant, I'd rather make home made bread 

I tried fondant when I started beekeeping. I didn't care for the final product and would not be doable for a larger number of hives.


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Mr.Beeman said:


> The newspaper got wet from the snow melt, but I usually put in on dry.


Thank you for posting the video it is well done. I noticed you just put the inner cover over the sugar without a shim. Is that inner cover made deeper than normal? Also I have been planning on insulating on top of my inner cover with Styrofoam, it appears that you are using about 1/2" is that right?
Again Thank you and I've subscribed to your YT channel.
Colino


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Vance G said:


> My bees must not mind non inverted dry white sugar as I don't do it anymore and they build up fine on it. Any one who feels the need to go thru the extra effort has my respect as a better kind of human being. I just see no difference now that I no longer am that better kind of human being.


 Vance you're too much! LoL


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## tacomabees (May 2, 2013)

So, I gave it a try....if you have all the stuff (candy thermometer, etc.), It's not all that tough to make really, but I'd work it up in larger batches. I don't have a hundred hives like Laurie to look after but for a reserve feed, I like the texture better than a hard candy block and Laurie's recipe works better as it tends toward the consistency of sugar cubes when I've made it ....that said, I'll leave this fondant out to see if it hardens up like a rock exposed to air...if so, then there's not much difference if it doesn't make it easier for the cluster. But, It may have a place for the person with a few hives that wants something quick. Start to finish on the batch was about 35 minutes from fire to saran wrap and you could put it on the hive immediately.

I like Laurie's recipe too, but like all things, the challenge I had was the drying time (you may or may not count the "set" or drying time, but it ties up the oven trying to make bread as I don't have a nice de-hydrator), but there's a bit more planning needed. Making this fondant in my kitchen aid may make it more doable for an hours investment if you have 5 hives or less...but hey, if beekeeping was easy, everyone would do it....I look at all these ideas as just another tool in the box.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Tacomabees, 

If your product is smooth with a firm clay-like texture you've succeeded. If the result is granular than it's shy of being a complete success.

I don't believe I ever made a batch in 35 minutes...









Make a batch with 4 or 5 pounds of sugar, that is a better test of your process.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Colino said:


> Thank you for posting the video it is well done. I noticed you just put the inner cover over the sugar without a shim. Is that inner cover made deeper than normal? Also I have been planning on insulating on top of my inner cover with Styrofoam, it appears that you are using about 1/2" is that right?
> Again Thank you and I've subscribed to your YT channel.
> Colino


Thank you very much for subscribing to my YT channel. I must be up to......5 subscribers? lol
The inner cover is deeper on one side for winter feeding if needed. You are very observant in that the inner cover styrofoam is 1/2".


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## tacomabees (May 2, 2013)

Yup, BeeCurious,

That's exactly what it looked like...smooth, no lumps...

Maybe a lucky first try as I've not made it before, but I also make candy, reduction syrups, caramel, fudge, etc...and the most critical thing working with sugars is the final temperature, this is a little under softball stage (fudge) at 235-237f.

It's easy with a small batch, 5lbs would be more of a challenge as I'd want to have a different set up, like those big copper pot urns and a marble table to float it...but then I'd have trouble not adding peanut butter or making a nice Penuche'...Don't think the girls would like it and then I'd be stuck having to eat it...


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

BeeCurious said:


> It's not worth the time and effort to attempt to make baker's fondant.
> 
> Try it, I'm sure you'll agree.


Ah, yeah...ok, call me lazy, but my brain started to malfunction around instruction #4, and then began to shut down between #5 and #6. If I'm going to go to all that trouble, I'll make fudge and eat it myself or, as Lauri suggested, make a loaf of bread (but with a bread machine...). 

Gotta bee an easier way. I'm going to try Lauri's no-cook recipe.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

tacomabees said:


> So, I gave it a try....if you have all the stuff (candy thermometer, etc.), It's not all that tough to make really, but I'd work it up in larger batches.


Thanks, Tacomabees, for giving us real-life real-time feedback on this fondant recipe. I will try using my kitchen oven to dehydrate Lauri's recipe. What about a small toaster oven if you don't want to tie up the big oven for too long?


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