# Would you treat with OAV now?



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

First year beekeeper. Three packages and two swarms. I checked for mites with powdered (unfortunately only once) and only three of the five hives. Counts were 2-1-1. This was August. All hives had a brood break during supercedure or swarming or having been a swarm.

It is going to be above 40 here a few times this week. All hives haven't shown any DWV or any other signs of mites (to my untrained eye). They have been doing well this winter and so far all are still alive. My question is, would you treat if you were me? I just got done finishing up a DIY vaporizer, works well so far outside the hive. I most likely will not do so, but I am just interested in what more experienced people think? 

My understanding is that the temps need to be above 37 at the time of treating. Is there any period of time that needs to be above or at that threshold after treatment?


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

At this point the hives should be getting ready to start brood rearing again shortly if not already. Not in mass but little patches till the weather gets better. Treating with OAV at this time if the weather is above 40 outside is going to kill off most of the phoretic mites. There's no set temp that the outside has to be after treatment. 

As for treating if I were you, I would say yes. I've seen what a good healthy hive can be if you don't treat. DEAD! Mites can kill a hive in no time in the winter.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I agree. If you are not sure of their mite load then I would do a treatment. After treating, slide in a board and do a mite count after 48 hours. If there are numerous dead mites on the board then you may want to do a couple more treatments about a week apart. If the counts are low, then you should be good until next Fall.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I have solid bottoms, can I slide a piece of cardboard or something in with cooking spray on it?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

jwcarlson said:


> I have solid bottoms, can I slide a piece of cardboard or something in with cooking spray on it?


Something non absorbent would probably be better. Political signs cut to slide in maybe.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Find a piece of aluminum flashing that is as wide as needed and long, slide in on top of the bottom board and then do your treatment. You can leave it in there as long as needed if you have one for each hive.


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## nater37 (Aug 15, 2013)

thanks guys, 
is it better to dribble or vapor? 
and what is the the formula for it


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I don't think spraying your bees with liquid this time of year is probably a good idea?


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

nater37 said:


> thanks guys,
> is it better to dribble or vapor?
> and what is the the formula for it


This time of year = Vapor for sure for me. Dribble is better in the warmer months when you don't have to worry about the colony at large ending up frozen. Bees + Cold = Just fine , Bees + wet + cold = DEAD BEES


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

drlonzo said:


> At this point the hives should be getting ready to start brood rearing again shortly if not already. Not in mass but little patches till the weather gets better. Treating with OAV at this time if the weather is above 40 outside is going to kill off most of the phoretic mites. There's no set temp that the outside has to be after treatment.
> 
> As for treating if I were you, I would say yes. I've seen what a good healthy hive can be if you don't treat. DEAD! Mites can kill a hive in no time in the winter.


Totally agree with a small exception......the weather can be as low as 37. Not much of a difference, but don't want you not to treat if the weather is less than 40.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

If you're going to treat with OAV now is the time before they get a lot of brood and as Drlonzo states dribble would not work now. As for checking the mite kill. What's the point.? The treatment is going to get the majority of the mites no matter how many they are.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

For pure curiosity for me, Stan. I'd like to know.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I was always under the impression that the dribble method was done in the winter when they were clustered tight and no brood 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht4hVbSraHg


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Although I consider it likely that my bees up here in northern NY (like yours in Iowa) may already have some brood (and thus at least some of the mites are now protected from the effects of OAV) in your situation with no concrete mite data from since August, I think I'd treat on the principle of better late, than not at all.

But I would certainly make an effort to do a mite drop count starting immediately after the treatment. You will find it useful to know how many mites you killed in the first round. Yes, you will kill a high percentage of the phoretic mites, but it's possible that you may already have some mites protected from OAV by the first few capped brood. For this reason if you have a lot of dead mites, I'd consider a second round to-coincide with the emergence of the first round of the brood when the mites are once again vulnerable to the OAV. If your drop _after that second treatment is very, very few _(indicating that there were few mites unexposed to the first round) then I would consider that as a two-swat version of the once-and-you're-done broodless period treatment and leave things alone.

FWIW, last winter faithfully I sticky-boarded constantly (fresh boards every 72 hours) through the entire upstate winter. And my data showed a steady low rate of mite fall from about the last week of November onwards. By low I mean mite drops on the order of roughly one to three per week. And then in about the middle of January it went to zero. And stayed there for about two weeks. The it "spiked" to a bit less than 1 per 24 hours. At first I was thrilled (by the zero amount, not the "spike", of course). What was going on? During the period when I saw no mites I was also examining the hive-floor trash on the sticky very closely - that's when I began to see little changes that I was startled to recognize as the first evidence of the new brooding: fresh crystalline wax scales and then eventually cappings when the brood merged. It was confirmed when I saw a few turfed-out juvenile larva, too.

I finally began to understand what happened when the mite count went down to zero: a large percentage of the over-wintering phoretic mites had pounced on the first fresh larva just as they were starting to pupate and nestle into their cells- and so for that period there were far fewer mites falling down out of the hive on to my boards. But while the mites were in the cells they began their merciless reproductive cycle. So shortly after they emerged there started to be an uptick in the number of mites on my boards. This was confirmed when I saw paler male and juvenile mites on the boards for the first time since autumn.

So, I'd look at your forecast and see if you can identify a near-term day when it will be @40 F, which coincides with another 40F day five to eight days ahead. But I wouldn't wait a week for such a chance, I'd go ahead and treat at least the one time, because as I said above better late than not at all. 

This is a lesson I learned from my own experience last year. I ordered, and Larry sent me my vaporizer (at extra effort on his part to get it out quickly) in Dec. of 2013. Unfortunately just as it arrived, so did the infamous Polar Vortex, and I couldn't treat right away. So I waited out the long freeze, but by then my bees had started brooding (though I didn't recognize that initially) and then I thought it would be too late and I dithered when my mite counts dropped to nearly zero, failing to seize my last, best shot at knocking down the problem. I regret that. As several people have noted about beekeeping: everything is local and timing is critical. 

Enj.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Thank you for all the input. I will have to noodle on it tonight. It will be about 42 tomorrow and 42 five days from tomorrow.

On a side note, why is the outside temperature important? If it is too cold will the vapor not permeate the hive correctly?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Good question!
Yes, I found out that the outside temp. is irrelevant to the OAV treatment inside the hive.
I did night treatments at 31°F. So the outside temp. does not affect the OAV at all.
Keep in mind that the inside hive temp. is regulated in the 90s. Tonight after the treatment
I opened the hive to take a look. Saw the OA white dust powder covered the majority of
the worker bees to say it is an effective treatment. This was the 3rd treatment and saw a significant drop of the mites after the 1st.
I don't do a mite check but just an observation of the attaching mites on the bees while doing a routine hive inspection. Then decide to treat or not. 
I will treat when I see the mites on the bees.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

jwcarlson said:


> On a side note, why is the outside temperature important? If it is too cold will the vapor not permeate the hive correctly?


The lower the ambient temperature is, the tighter the cluster becomes inside the boxes. You want to vaporize when the cluster is loose so more bees are coated with the crystals. If the cluster is really tight with little movement of the bees, some of the bees in the core of the cluster might miss the OAV.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Well fired up my homemade vaporizer and it gets going then bubbles up in a dome that gets crusty then it doesn't seem to finish. If I push the dome down in with a stick it starts vaporizing again and finishes.
Any suggestions?


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## mgstei1 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sounds like it gets way to hot too fast. what is the wattage of your heating source ?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

mgstei1 said:


> Sounds like it gets way to hot too fast. what is the wattage of your heating source ?


150 W. Maybe I need to time when it starts and cut it off and let residual heat take care of it.


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## mgstei1 (Jan 11, 2014)

Could be a mass problem also with not enough aluminum surrounding the heat source.
im working on one now that has a 50 watt source that limits the heat to 350degF max using a 3/4" sliced down copper pipe cap. It takes a full 5 minutes to boil off 2g of OA but the vapor is heavy and constant after about 1.5 minutes of being on. I'm using the 50 watt as the max current draw on a 12vdc battery is only 5 amps and less.
Less heat and constant at about 300-350degF seems like the best boil off and vaporization.
That's a good idea to try on cutoff but you may be able to wire in a shunt to adjust temp in your pot and fine tune it.
I also have a Heileyser that I used for a while and to me it gets too hot too fast and degrades the OA.
Slow and steady I firmly believe gets the vapor off the acid and does not degrade it.
Only drawdown is longer to treat and the plus side is less current draw and a longer lasting battery.
I'll put out some pictures of the 50watt design when I get it all fine tuned and beta tested.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Just tried a few more times and it just isn't going to work. I left it on for almost 10 minutes earlier and it never melts down the dome. It boils off the water too quick is what it seems like. If I throw a pinch of snow on it takes off.

Tried modulating it on/off too and it didn't seem to help. The scoop kind of just sits there and is held off the heat by whatever forms that dome. Finally I smashed it down and it goes. Wish I knew I was doing any good just getting to the "dome" part I'd at least try that.

I tried it inside of a deep and didnt notice any white powder after I was done so I feel like it isn't doing much.


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## nater37 (Aug 15, 2013)

Are you putting water in the acid? I may confused, but the vids I have watched is just the acid no water...


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## nater37 (Aug 15, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> Just tried a few more times and it just isn't going to work. I left it on for almost 10 minutes earlier and it never melts down the dome. It boils off the water too quick is what it seems like. If I throw a pinch of snow on it takes off.
> 
> Tried modulating it on/off too and it didn't seem to help. The scoop kind of just sits there and is held off the heat by whatever forms that dome. Finally I smashed it down and it goes. Wish I knew I was doing any good just getting to the "dome" part I'd at least try that.
> 
> I tried it inside of a deep and didnt notice any white powder after I was done so I feel like it isn't doing much.


Try just the acid no water I believe it should just melt and vapor. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I think that is why it is making a dome.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Only adding water after the dome forms.  maybe the oxalic I got is poor quality or something.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

You put oxalic acid crystals into the device's container.
You apply power.
The crystals first turn to liquid.
Then the liquid turns to vapor.
Once vaporized there should be no residue in the holder.
If this, or something similar isn't happening....I'd be more inclined to suspect the homebrew device than faulty oa.
Just my two cents.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I agree entirely, Dan. Was just wondering. All of that happens but when it turns to liquid it bubbles a lot almost foaming. Those bubbles cool/crystalize and form a crust.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jwcarlson said:


> Those bubbles cool/crystalize and form a crust.


Without knowing any more than I do....I'd guess that your device isn't getting hot enough.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beemandan said:


> Without knowing any more than I do....I'd guess that your device isn't getting hot enough.


You are correct. I just broke out my torch and heated up a gram in a small cup. When I let it bubble and remove heat it crusts over. Reapply heat dome goes away and vaporizes fully. My heating element is flat and it might have a tough time keeping it warm enough.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, I saw the powder melted and saw the
acid boiling with lots of smokes coming out. Saw the dome shape of the clear crystals too. 
So what is working to kill the mites? Is it the smokes, boiling of
the acids or the dome shape of the clear crystals?
I think it is the crystals, right.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I bought a $5.15 copper 1/2" air chamber and a $0.30 90* elbow. Cut it in half and joined with elbow. Torch to heat it. Did a couple trial runs at home and they went well. Did my two Langs tonight but it was marginal temperature right at 37*. Unfortunately the second hive had a bee crawl into the tube while I was heating it and when I pulled the tube there was a bee covered in OA crystals. I'm sure some vapors made it in, but did not see many vapors coming from the hive. I will probably do them again at the next opportunity. Too many dead bees and hive trash on the bottom board to slide in the board I wanted to use to see if there's a drop.

Is there an option to hold copper together at high temps?

Here is the air reservoir: http://m.homedepot.com/p/1-2-in-x-8-in-Copper-Air-Chamber-10632532/204508494/


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

I am looking into OA. Should I get POWDER or CRYSTALS?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Crystals..... you can buy in at Ace Hardware where it is known as wood bleach and usually in the paint section under the name Savogran. Amazon and Ebay also have it.


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## Arlindi (May 17, 2013)

Related question:

I am planning on doing this treatment for the first time within the next couple of days. My question is, can I vaporize the OA when I have sugar blocks/ pollen patties already on the hive? Will it contaminate them and possibly hurt the bees when the bees ingest the feed? Should I remove it all and then put it on later? 

I realize I am a little late to the party and will probably have to do another treatment since they are already starting brood. I have not treated since early August and would rather be on the safe side with my treatments than be sorry later. I aim to be much more diligent at monitoring the mite levels this year since I was lax about it last year.

Any advice you have would be immensely appreciated!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Most all vaporizations are done on the whole brood and storage frames in a hive. The layer of OA microcrystals deposited throughout is what killes the mites. Sugar blocks, patties etc., which are also present would be no different than the bee placed honey and pollen; it is not a problem of any lasting significance.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sure, go ahead. Then you will know if it was the right thing to do or not.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Arlindi said:


> My question is, can I vaporize the OA when I have sugar blocks/ pollen patties already on the hive? Will it contaminate them and possibly hurt the bees when the bees ingest the feed? Should I remove it all and then put it on later?


Sure....go right ahead, no need to remove any feed ......


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Sure, go ahead. Then you will know if it was the right thing to do or not.


Mark, that was a lousy answer.............better to have not answered at all...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, probably right. So do you think it's a good idea or not? I don't. But I'd like to hear your take.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I responded below.....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

:scratch:


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## quattro (Oct 2, 2014)

Slightly related question. Getting new packages in late March. When would be the first time I could do an OAV? It is tempting to do it early before anything gets capped over.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Mark, see post # 37


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

quattro said:


> Slightly related question. Getting new packages in late March. When would be the first time I could do an OAV? It is tempting to do it early before anything gets capped over.


I would OAV (that's now a noun and verb ) once you have hived the package and you're sure the queen is accepted (you'll see some eggs).... That's a great time as there is almost no brood and you'll kill almost 100% of the phoretic mites. What a great way to start a new hive.... miteless!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Since there isn't any brood with a package, and especially if comb has to be drawn, won't most, if not all, phoretic mites die anyway? Regardless of OA treatment or not? Or am I missing something? What is the lifespan of a varroa mite if it isn't reproducing? I guess they do live over winter some how when bee brood isn't being raised, don't they?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Since there isn't any brood with a package, and especially if comb has to be drawn, won't most, if not all, phoretic mites die anyway? Regardless of OA treatment or not? Or am I missing something? What is the lifespan of a varroa mite if it isn't reproducing? I guess they do live over winter some how when bee brood isn't being raised, don't they?


Nope, the phoretic mites have a life cycle of 6-8 months in the winter per Clemson University as long as they have some bees from which to feed upon. Since most of the bees in a package come from overwintered colonies, they will surely have phoretic mites and OAV is an excellent treatment for destroying them.


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## quattro (Oct 2, 2014)

Thanks for the info - can't wait until March to get started!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is the Clemson page _snl _is referencing:

http://www.clemson.edu/extension/beekeepers/factsheets/varroa_mite_control_in_sc.html

Varroa mites can only _reproduce _on bee pupa, so if there is no bee brood, there will be no _new _mites either. But once the mites emerge from the brood cell along with the developed 'new born' bee, those emerged mites can live 6-8 months as long as they have a bee host to provide nutrition (through the mite gaining sustenance from the bee's hemoglyph {similar to blood}).


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Here is the Clemson page _snl _is referencing:
> 
> http://www.clemson.edu/extension/beekeepers/factsheets/varroa_mite_control_in_sc.html
> 
> Varroa mites can only _reproduce _on bee pupa, so if there is no bee brood, there will be no _new _mites either. But once the mites emerge from the brood cell along with the developed 'new born' bee, those emerged mites can live 6-8 months as long as they have a bee host to provide nutrition (through the mite gaining sustenance from the bee's hemoglyph {similar to blood}).


With packages, we're talking about killing the phoretic mites that arrive on the bees in the packages that will eventually breed in new brood. Those are the ones you want to rid your bees of BEFORE they have a chance to breed......


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

As low-impact as OAV is, I don't think a new beekeeper installing a package on undrawn foundation should treat them until the queen is accepted and they're up and running.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

cg3 said:


> As low-impact as OAV is, I don't think a new beekeeper installing a package on undrawn foundation should treat them until the queen is accepted and they're up and running.


You're right, already mentioned .......see post # 44


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Ok, I bleached my hives on Saturday. Because of a bad decision (putting top bars into a Lang instead of cutting the combs and rubber banding them in) I could only put part of a crisco'd for sale sign in on one of the hives. It was under the main part of the cluster though. There are quite a few more cappings on one board because they still have stored honey. The other (bigger board) is onto granulated sugar. These are after almost exactly 72 hours. The disclaimer is that I tried OAV on these two hives on Wednesday last week. I didn't feel it went well but there is a possibility that it was somewhat affective. The mites in the snow fell off the board when I pulled it out (bigger board).


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## nater37 (Aug 15, 2013)

wow, nice kill..


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

There are very few on the smaller board. Maybe 50? Perhaps they are hiding in brood? Or maybe the vaporization on Wednesday was better than I thought on this one? This hive was uncapping brood a bit all summmer so were maybe staying ahead of it a bit? Would know more had I monitored.

Just wish I would have monitored better and treated sooner (if it was indicated). Lesson learned. 5 of 5 still alive, though... At this point.

Forgot to expound on smaller crisco board. One of the top bar deep sized combs collapsed or at least partially collapsed.


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

I think I'm missing something. In an earlier thread, I thought we discussed the OA "sublimating" (changing from solid to gas state). In this thread we are discussing solid (powder) changing to liquid state, then boiling off to a gaseous state. So which is the correct?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Both of the above is correct.
On the initial burn the solid (powder) will boil into a liquid state. Then as the temp. and burning time increased, the liquid state will evaporate and turn into a gaseous state. From the gas state you will see the white (coughing) gas going up the air. During the gas state some crystals will evaporate as well. In further buring the majority of the gas and crystals will be gone into the hive and the bees. 
During the gaseous state the white gas will carry the white crystal to cover the bees too. You will see some bees as white as a ghost when in direct contact with the gas. If you inhale the gas just a bit you will cough your lung out, literally. I have done 4 test burning to video them. And then 3 more final test on the bees. 
During the gaseous state if you removed the heat source then the crystals will form in a dome shape. When pressed on the center the dome will crash into solid crystal again without the white powder this time. So from powder to-->>boiling liquid to-->>gas + crystals.

The only thing I don't understand is what cause the death of the mites. Is it the coughing gas or the shiny metallic like crystals?
Without the white color gas, will the crystals kill off the mites too? Then I can isolate the crystals first and then burn them inside the hive without coughing much.


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

It can't be both.......it either converts directly from a solid state to a gas state (sublimation) or it turns to liquid in between these two states and I understood we wanted to avoid the liquid state. So I think I'm missing something.

After reading Scientific Beekeeping, I'll have to avoid this method for safety of my lungs. I already have lung issues and can't risk further damage.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

BeeAttitudes said:


> It can't be both.......it either converts directly from a solid state to a gas state (sublimation) or it turns to liquid in between these two states and I understood we wanted to avoid the liquid state. So I think I'm missing something.
> 
> After reading Scientific Beekeeping, I'll have to avoid this method for safety of my lungs. I already have lung issues and can't risk further damage.


It most certainly can be both, if the term "sublimation" when used in this regard is a misused term with a more scientific definition than most beekeepers would be aware of. I have watched quite a few OAV videos on YouTube and I can't say that I've seen any of them go from solid-to-gas. When people say that OA "sublimates" I think they may mean that it heats up really fast and turns into a vapor quickly as well. I'm not a chemist and it has been quite awhile since I took any chemistry, but I can't really think of a reason that it would matter if the change of state between solid and liquid happened or not?

Regarding the lung issue, it isn't terribly difficult to stay out of the fray if you're cautious. I've been wearing this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-Paint-Project-Respirator-in-Large-6311PA1-A/100195886
I bought it awhile back to wear for anything that doesn't seem like a paper dust mask is going to help with. I wear it when I'm sanding something for any extended period of time. Working in my attic so I'm not breathing all that blown in cellulose insulation dust. Applying certain products as well. I haven't tried to take a direct hit of the vapor, but I did try to smell it (OA has an odor) by getting into some of the vapor and sniffing. Not taking huge hits or anything, just trying to get a whiff like I have while doing "trial runs" in the past. Didn't smell anything.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Just checked the boards more closely. There are fresh wax flakes on both boards.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@jwcarlson:

You should check to see if those cartridges are the right ones for *acid gas vapors*. 3-M makes a range of them for the various mask styles and some are for particulates (sanding dust), some for fine liquids (paint spray) and some for various types of vapors. The ones that came with my 3-M mask (which I also got a Lowes) were not the right ones for acid gases. Home Depot had the right ones sold separately. The different mask styles need different, matching cartridges. The whole set up was about $75 (mask with wrong cartrides and the extra acid gas cartridges) not cheap, but way better than nothing. I always make a careful re-fit testing the exhalation and inhalation seals before every use. But then I used to be a volunteer firefighter so I learned to take respirators very seriously. 

That's a lot of mites on those boards, which means the treatment was needed. You can be relieved that you did it now rather than waiting and that those mites are now DOA. If you're seeing fresh wax, then your bees are brooding and that raises the issue of whether you need to do repeat treatments in a week or two to hammer the ones hat were hiding under the cappings.

Enj.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks for the tips on the different type of masks for their application. I have a harbor freight mask for organic vapor/P95, the spray paint and pesticide application.
But during my video process I held my breath for almost more than 2 minutes while the powder gases off outside. So even a little sniff will get caught in the lungs and
coughing with it in a split second. Yes, it is that fast. And I'm the guinea pig this time. Though I tried not to inhale too much. Just a little normal breathing will get to you.
Don't inhale any acid vapor is what I recommended. 
As for getting the powder to the gas state really fast you need a high temp. device. In less than 2-3 seconds you will see the gas coming off as the powder got burn while the
side goes to a boiling liquid state before turning into the shinny crystal form.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

enjambres said:


> @jwcarlson:
> 
> You should check to see if those cartridges are the right ones for *acid gas vapors*. 3-M makes a range of them for the various mask styles and some are for particulates (sanding dust), some for fine liquids (paint spray) and some for various types of vapors. The ones that came with my 3-M mask (which I also got a Lowes) were not the right ones for acid gases. Home Depot had the right ones sold separately. The different mask styles need different, matching cartridges. The whole set up was about $75 (mask with wrong cartrides and the extra acid gas cartridges) not cheap, but way better than nothing. I always make a careful re-fit testing the exhalation and inhalation seals before every use. But then I used to be a volunteer firefighter so I learned to take respirators very seriously.
> 
> ...


The mask says "Organic Vapors". 
I understand on he mites being in the brood, I am guessing that's why there wer so few in one (bigger hive with more brood or with more capped brood perhaps).
We will see how this all shakes out. Hoping for some more warm days soon. Don't know if that is going to happen though.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Organic vapors are NOT the same as acid gas. Don't get confused by the fact that oxalic acid is described by chemists as an organic acid, meaning it is not an inorganic acid. The general class of organic acids are just those which are derived from natural materials. 

I believe you need an acid gas cartridge, at least according to my understanding of the materials that came packed with my 3-M equipment. My original mask came with organic vapor cartridges p-95 type. I subbed them out for the correct cartridge. 

I agree about the smallest whiff of this stuff. I was messing around with a three-box tall stack that was topped with window as a test, so I could watch the vapors rising up during the burn. Even though I had my mask on, crouching/leaning directly over the glass to watch closely must have slightly impaired the seal and I got a little puff of it. It was not nice! 

(I really should be using a size small mask, but the smallest one at the store was a medium - apparently Lowes doesn't think that women need masks for, sanding, painting, etc.... but I digress. I will mail order the correct size before I start OAV-ing again this summer.)

It's interesting when the bees start to brood again in the mid/late winter. Last year (2013-2014 winter) I was steadily sticky boarding every three days all the way through. I had a very, very, low but constant level, and then suddenly the number went to zero around the third week in Jan. I was elated because I thought the wretched mites had been done in by the infamous Polar Vortex. Alas, what I now believe happened was that most of the phoretic mites must have leapt into the first batch of capped cells. The mite drop stayed at zero for about ten days then began a slow, almost imperceptible rise for the rest of the winter. Last winter I wussed out and did not treat the phoretic mites in late December when I first got my wand from Larry. (Well, and I had bad weather, too - but it was really mostly wussiness.)

This past December I did not fail to do the broodless-period treatment. And after things settled down from that the mite drops went to zero - and I held my breath for a whole month - and they stayed there far longer than I could expect if they just hopped into nearly capped cells only to emerge two-fold stronger two weeks later. I don't for a minute believe I've done away with every single one of the mites in my huge hives, but I must admit to a little thrill of delight when I pull a sticky out and there's not a one on it. It's been six consecutive weeks now....!! It won't last forever, but I'm lovin' it as long as it lasts.

Enj.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It is easier to manage now that I had a few coughs from the treatments before. 
I'll put a small fan to run from my 12v car battery to blow the fumes away when I treat them next time, if needed.
Part of my mite management is to moved the 1st capped broods to a new
small nuc with a resistant laying queen. Anything that hatched can bee managed better to control the mites in the small nuc. The original hive will be smaller but with good empty combs and the remaining nurse bees, they can recover faster and without the mites with them. Now the original hive is clean for awhile and the new nuc can be OAV again. Or hand picked off the phoretic mites with a small razor blade. Yes, it is better to manage the mites while the broods are being capped. After hatching it will be harder to deal with the mites. What is your strategy to manage the mites?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beepro said:


> It is easier to manage now that I had a few coughs from the treatments before.
> I'll put a small fan to run from my 12v car battery to blow the fumes away when I treat them next time, if needed.
> Part of my mite management is to moved the 1st capped broods to a new
> small nuc with a resistant laying queen. Anything that hatched can bee managed better to control the mites in the small nuc. The original hive will be smaller but with good empty combs and the remaining nurse bees, they can recover faster and without the mites with them. Now the original hive is clean for awhile and the new nuc can be OAV again. Or hand picked off the phoretic mites with a small razor blade. Yes, it is better to manage the mites while the broods are being capped. After hatching it will be harder to deal with the mites. What is your strategy to manage the mites?


So you dig through your hive and try to knock mites off with a razor? How long does that take and how many are you knocking off on a "good day"?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The hygienic bees will drag off the DWV young bees with the mites attached.
So the mite population will decrease significantly until the next hatch. This is the time to go in to
catch the bee with the mites on. Grab it by the wing and slide a thin razor blade under the mite to lift or drag it off the bee.
They are quick though. At 25 mph (mite speed) sometimes hard to catch them. Reminded me of the Alien movies.
They like to hang around the side of the abdomen, on the thorax and under the belly. The sharp razor can also be use to cut the mite in half too.
Depending on how many you will find, on a good day you might catch 28 of them. On a bad day only 8. So the mite cycle will peak
and drop according to the new bees that hatched. I usually spent 2 hours or so to go thru 8 frames every other day. First to OAV them on 3 days in a week. On a small
5 frame nuc it is faster depending on how many mites I find. It is easy to find them with a small LED miner's light on. Of course, you gotta have
the gentle type bees to do that without them clogging your veil all at once at close range. With every inspection and catching I found less and less mites on 
the bees. After the first frame of broods that got sealed with the most mites inside, the other subsequent frames of capped broods have lesser mites with them.
The lucky nurse bees that survived the mite attack will graduate into field bees with a mite attached to it. Mites don't like to change bee unless they have to. 
My long term goal is to have the mite resistant bees with less treatment. I'm picking out the survivor now with a little bit of organic help. Look at the 1, 2, 3, 4 year progress at http://kirkwebster.com/index.php/a-...moving-all-treatment-from-commercial-apiaries


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

We had another 40 degree day this past weekend so I did another round in both of my Langs. The larger hive had a similar number of mites as they did in the picture I posted early of the smaller mite board, but when I pulled the board those bees are still in a big cluster and the cluster touches the bottom board. So when I pull the "mite board" out, it starts disrupting the cluster so instead of dragging out two or three handfuls of angry bees when it's 30* I left the board. There was a single pupae, just getting wing buds. Still bright white, but uncapped and dropped to the bottom board for some reason. No mites on it, but does confirm that there is capped brood in the hive. Which is neat to know.

This is the board from the other hive. Treatment #2. Significantly less mites this time.









Neat to see the size of the cluster and also neat to see that they are still on capped syrup and it doesn't appear they have tapped into the dry sugar on top of the hive just yet. Or at least not enough to knock a lot of it down onto the bottom.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beepro said:


> The hygienic bees will drag off the DWV young bees with the mites attached.
> So the mite population will decrease significantly until the next hatch. This is the time to go in to
> catch the bee with the mites on. Grab it by the wing and slide a thin razor blade under the mite to lift or drag it off the bee.
> They are quick though. At 25 mph (mite speed) sometimes hard to catch them. Reminded me of the Alien movies.
> ...


Honest question.
Is this some type of a joke? I mean no disrespect by that, I just find the idea of someone rifling through an entire hive with a razor blade in hopes of knocking off 5-30 mites laughable.

Why not just hit them with OAV (since you're already using it) and kill something like 99% of those mites instead of knocking off 0.1-0.5% with a razor blade? Hell, I'd guess that powdered sugar dusting would be significantly less intrusive and probably more effective (and it basically isn't effective at all) than killing mites with a razor.


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

Good info above regarding masks to filter the acidic gas. I have a good 3M mask so just need to get the correct cartridges.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, this is what I do to catch them. There was a thread asking how to kill his hive off because it is infected with the mites. In response to the beekeeper I use my hives to try to save it instead of killing it entirely.
The reason for not using another round of OAV is that
this is a recovered nuc hive. The mites level is very low now after the first infestation. As of yesterday, I did not
find anymore mites in there. So to further test the hygienic bees
out, after they were clear of the mites, I put another 2 frames
of emerging bees from another hive with the mites in there. Again, this is
to test their mite clearing ability to assess the queen's potential for a possible grafting this Spring. 
So first to clear the mites to allow the nuc to rebuild. After that infect the same nuc hive with 2 frames of bees with mites on them. If this nuc hive is indeed has the mite fighting ability then it justify my reason for not killing it entirely (to the new beekeeper.) And that it can recover after the first infestation with a 2nd round of mite attack. Combining mite fighting ability and OAV intensive treatment it is possible to save a hive. Don't have to kill it off entirely is what I want to present to the new beekeeper. We're here to save the bees not to kill them off when they got the mites. 
Catching the mites with a razor to cut it in half is because I don't want to treat with another round of OAV to kill all the mites and allow the 2nd infestation a possibility to further access the situation in the nuc hive. This is how I ran my little bee experiments here. Yes, killing them all with OAV is simple and not too time consuming. But it does not allow you to learn from the mites and develop the mite fighting bees, locally. I already found a hive with similar mite resistant traits before but didn't know how to preserve its genetics but instead killed off the resistant queen. This time I hope to recover what had been loss from before. I don't want to go looking for the bees with mites on so rather have some mites here for the test subject. So retaining some mites is the only way to do my little experiments on in the future. I want to learn about the mites as much as possible. It is not my intention to kill off all the mites entirely for this experiment to work in the long run. Glad that you ask further.


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