# Fumagillan/Nosevit patties, subtopic of meeting bees nutritional requirements



## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

I am considering the addition of Fumagillin to my Pollen Supplements and or Pollen Substitutes.
The hives have their winter weight and I thought that I would incorporate the _Nosema_ prevention/control into the above mentioned mixes.
take the labels directions for heavy syrup and substitute the weight pound for pound with the Pollen Supplement and or the Pollen Substitute.
Or, adjust the concentration down to one pound patties.

Positive comments are welcomed.
Regards,
Ernie


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*

Ernie, we have been using Fumagillin but are looking hard at alternatives due to the cost. Next spring we are testing Nosevit as some reports show it working as well as Fum but at a fraction of the cost. In addition, some report pollen sub itself as working as well. If any of the above could be shown to work exclusively that would definitely be a plus, but of course, all things equal the most economical will win the market in the end. 

While it might be a benefit to have the addition of either Fumagillin or Nosevit in patties, in many cases syrup is given to the bees at the same time of year and the addition of either to the syrup is fairly simple so the benefit might not be as great as on first appearance, given the additional cost and the fact some customers might not want the additional additives. It might be a nice option to offer but given the cost of Fum, I would research Nosevit..
Sheri


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*

> Ernie, we have been using Fumagillin but are looking hard at alternatives due to the cost. Next spring we are testing Nosevit as some reports show it working as well as Fum but at a fraction of the cost. In addition, some report pollen sub itself as working as well.

Some subs contain potassium sorbate and also sodium propionate, which are fungus and bacterial growth inhibitors respectively. These are very inexpensive (human) food preservatives available from Univar in bulk, and elsewhere in smaller amounts.

Since nosema is fungal, could the sorbate be a factor? I know Gilles Fert mentioned using sorbate in his thin syrup in hs book about queen rearing to prevent fermentation, so the use of sorbate for bees has a history.

Nonetheless, I have asked many researchers if they have any knowledge about this and received blank stares.

Of course, there are those who will find this revelation a further reason to condemn all subs, citing the tremendous importance of each and every microorganism in each and every hive on God's Green Earth, even though only some subs use these inhibitors. Those battling nosema, though, might want to consider making an exception.

Food for thought?


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## Johnny (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*



Allen Dick said:


> > In addition, some report pollen sub itself as working as well.


I've also heard reports of this and this year I'm not spending the money on Fumagillin or Nosevit. I'd rather put the money in queens and some good sub. Around here I have to start feeding in late summer anyway. We'll see how this works for me. :scratch:


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*

My best bees are the ones that were packages from last spring that were medicated according to randy Olivers web site.

Ernie


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*

Pollen sub alone.....there was a study published recently, comparing 4 groups of nos c infected colonies. 1 fed syrup w/o fum, 1 fed syrup with fumagillan, 1 fed pollen sub without fum and 1 fed sub with fumagillan. I cannot find the study now. Anyone know where it was published?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*

I have the one that shows the bar graphing to report the results.
It could be in a ABJ about last April or May.
The report was conclusive.
Ernie


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*

OK Ernie, let's see how bad my memory is. I remember it showing the syrup w Fum B the best, sub w Fum B next, patties w/o Fum B third, and plain sugar the worst. 
but I thought the report was much more recent.
Sheri


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*

Sheri,

I posted this last Feb. on beesource. Very interesting results that for some reason are not to be found anywhere. I think it would be very useful to the beekeeping community to get this. 

"Last May at the Colorado Beekeeping Assoc. meeting, Dr. Frank Etschen gave a presentation on tests that were done with bees and nosema where they fed bees using different concentrations of Fum B and others with just Sugar water alone. The test was funded by Fum B producers. Though he would not come out and say it (because of who funded the study I am sure) the results as shown on his slides showed no difference and in some cases a less of an effect on nosema those who received Fum B than those who received S/W. So from his study it can be determined that just feeding S/W to bees infected with nosema has the same effect (or gets the same or better results) as feeding with Fum B."

I have searched and searched for his study or a copy of his power point that showed his results, this but cannot find it published anywhere. I think I will write and try and get him to send me a copy of it.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*

Heard that too, but that's some serious results, that need to be tested in the field on scale before anyone bets their outfits on it...


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*

Thanks Alpha, but the study I saw was much more recent. I have looked through the ABJs here and the only one I don't have is the Dec issue (must have lost it in CA) so I am wondering if it was in there. Or maybe I am just losing my mind!

With any of these studies, timing and strength of dosage can make a huge difference. I think the best dosage of Fum B for Nos C is still being figured out.
Sheri


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*

Lol, guess thats obvious, true, but remember that guy treating for Nosema with OA? 

I shoulda used quotes, I meant I'd heard of the sugar syrup. Haven't read up on the patties though...


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*

This is a little OT, but follows from the discussion of patties, and nosema affects the ability of bees to absorb nutrition, so please accept my apologies.

Raquel Martin-Hernandez gave three presentations at our IPM workshop in Edmonton this week and I learned that Spain has more beehives than the entire USA. That surprised me.​ 
It also became clear to me that the Spanish group was on the forefront of the nosema cerana discovery and has conducted well funded, rigorous surveys and studies into nosema cerana -- and that their labs and monitoring are very up to date and thorough. Mariano Higes was suppose to come, too, but had broken a leg and is laid up.​ 
That group tried a number of methods to control nosema and found that feeding 250 ml (one cup) of 50/50 syrup with fumagillan mixed according to the label four times over a month gave the best control. Patties did not work for them, and their controls died.​ 
I have posted some of her slides on my diary, and will try to find time to put more there, with expanations.​ 
I guess what the take home message from all the studies so far is that they are just all just snapshots of one place in time and give us glimpses, not clear understanding.​ 
Some are replicated or confirmed independantly and that adds some certainty, but there are always hidden confounding factors which may not reveal themselves, and we must always remember that much of the work uses statistical analysis to tease conclusions out of data that many of us would consider to be "all noise".​ 
Such studies typically claim a confidence factor of 95%, but that is a long, long way from 100%.​ 
There is also usually a lot of "wiggle room" to choose one conclusion over another, whether deliberately or subconsciously, by choosing how the data is managed and analysed, and that can greatly influence the outcome.​ 
It would be nice if we could just feed patties and stop worrying, but until we find out why nosema has recently become such a plague, we will have to be careful to keep monitoring and not just assume that out treatmenst work.​


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*

OK, found the study. It is in the Nov 09 ABJ under the title ""Nosevit patties" Treatment of Honey Bees (Apis mellifera) for the Control of Nosema ceranae Disease" and is as I remember, only with Nosevit instead of Fum B. Other than _that_ "little detail"  the Syrup with Nosevit (drenched) worked best, the Nosevit patty almost as well, reducing spore counts, with sampling taken at 12, 28, 40 and 60 days. The untreated patty and untreated drenched syrup colonies showed continued increase in spore counts over the 60 days, while Nosevit treated patties and syrup dramatically reduced spore counts. Additionally, the Nosevit pattied colonies showed increasing growth in strength of colonies (by frames of brood) measured at 12, 40 and 60 days after treatment, more than doubling compared to the untreated colonies. Since the study was focused on the Nosevit patty, the Nosevit syrup group was not included in strength comparisons, but one would assume (gotta be careful with assumptions, I know) that the Nos syrup fed bees would likewise be much stronger than those untreated.

Relating to Nutrition, I would expect bees given plain sub would react more favorably than bees in a pollen dearth that might be impacting their health, but this study and others cited (thanks Allen) should at least give pause to anyone depending solely on untreated sub to have any effect on confirmed Nos C infections. 
Research is ongoing.

Study by Ivana Tlak Gajger, Ljiljana Pinter and Zdravko Petrinec of Faculty of Veterinary Medicine University of Zagreb, Croatia.
Oliver Vugrek of Division of Molecular Medicine Institute Ruder Boskovic, Zegreb,Croatia.

Sheri


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*

Thanks Sheri.

I find it interesting that we can find studies done in Croatia and with all the funding here in the states not that much? What are they using all those CCD grants for? :scratch: Where is the data?


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*

A quick Google for "Nosevit" and/or "Nozevit" will turn up some interesting pages, including two pages of Randy's.

Personally, I am not convinced that we know what is causing the increased virulence of nosema lately. There are some interesting studies underway at Beaverlodge, UF and Beltsville that may shed some light on things.

I had thought from some recent U.S. work on sublethal effects of neonics that perhaps the neonics were exacerbating the nosema problem, but the Spanish workers did not seem to think that these chemicals are widely used in Spain. Odd, I thought, since it is everywhere and they border France, but they should know. They were thinking about sunflowers, and I asked about canola/oilseed rape. We'll see if they take another look.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*

Thank you for the information.
Currently I am using Fumagillin and I do not plan on switching over to another product.

Ernie


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## Johnny (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements*



BEES4U said:


> My best bees are the ones that were packages from last spring that were medicated according to randy Olivers web site.
> 
> Ernie


Hey Ernie, I'm by no means trying to say that Fumagillin does not work and I've given up on it. I just dont have the funds that you big boys have to be able to buy the sub and syrup and the queens.... and everything else. I've done alot of dumb things before, and this might be another one. I'll definitely keep an eye on my spore count.

It just seems that you hear different info depending on who you ask on what they do about nosema. I know a beekeeper that doesn't spend the money on the Fumagillin or Nozevit and his bees seem to always look great. I was told that when his spore count starts to get high he just throws on the sub and that lowers his spore count. We'll see if that works for me.

Thanks for all the great info all you guys post on here it does help!! 

Thanks 
John


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## pahvantpiper (Apr 25, 2006)

Sometimes it seems there's no rhyme or reason to anything. This past fall '09 I fed 3 rounds of pollen patties (3 lbs per round), fed fumigillin, and in the summer requeened over 100 hives that were smallish. All of which I didn't do in '08. This year in the almonds had almost an identical frame count as the year before and lost the exact same percentage as the year before. 

Most beekeepers I know personally lost lots of hives this year. One buddy of mine who lost the least, only 10 or 12% did almost nothing. No protein patties of any kind. Very little Fumigillin, and only used that because he found some old stuff in his warehouse that was a few years old and didn't want it to go to waste. I went and looked at his bees and they were boomers, almost all. I lost almost 20% of mine and spent thousands and thousands of dollars more than him with worse results.

The only thing that seems to make any difference in my operation is location. Out of some of my honey making locations the bees now look great, out of others the bees mostly look bad. I mark all of my lids so I know where the bees were in the summer and fall and that seems to make the only difference with how they look now in the almonds. I know things vary from year to year and maybe I'd be worse off had I not done anything but it makes one wonder if all this stuff we're using isn't just snake oil.


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