# Beginning beekeeping questions



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

I found this a bit confusing. If by "liners" you mean foundation, then plastic foundation works and so does wax foundation. However, wax foundation needs to be reinforced with wire in the larger frames (in deeps specifically) to avoid collapse in the heat of summer and plastic foundation does not. Your desire to go foundationless will work also, but again it needs to be wired in any deep frames. To go foundationless in an existing box, you replace the frames one at a time, not the whole super at a time, so the bees don't have to go anywhere. They stay right there and draw out the new frames. To get nicely drawn foundationless (not a wonky mess all over the place) you place the empty frame between 2 nicely drawn frames and allow the bees to draw it out, manually correcting their mistakes as they go along. As long as you place each empty frame between 2 drawn ones, there should be minimal repairs necessary.

Neither plastic or the wax foundation is intended to be cut apart at harvest. For that you need the foundationless. I've never tried it, but unwired wax foundation can probably be harvested with cutting, and then converted the following season into foundationless. Someone who has done it might give you better information than I can, as I only use plastic foundation.

HTH

Rusty


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## Beeginning16 (Nov 12, 2016)

Wax foundation or plastic foundation is what I meant. I am thinking foundationless frames are easier, are they easier to harvest then wax and plastic foundation? How many frames would I leave full for the bee's to have for the next winter?

The guy I am buying the complete hive says that he does not use a queen exclusder. Also he said if I go foundationless, it would take longer to get honey and honey comb than wax and plastic foundation? The reason I think that I like foundationless is because it's all natural and no chemicals

What is the cheapest place I can buy all of my supplies? I mean cheaper, because I know it still will be expensive.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

I suppose that depends on your definition of "easier". The industry went to foundation because it eliminates many of the problems of foundationless--things like getting them drawn out correctly; avoiding huge amounts of drone cells, wax that collapses in the heat. New wax until it really firms up is very fragile. I've seen folks lose a whole frame because the wax broke loose from the wood when they tilted it the wrong way.

If you are going crush and strain for harvest, on the surface foundationless seems better. BUT that means each season you are starting from scratch again trying to get your comb built out nicely without a lot of drone cells and that takes time and uses more resources the bees could be putting into making honey. I sometimes harvest small amounts of plastic foundation (if I don't have a load for the extractor for example) by scraping the wax and honey off and giving the frame back to the bees. They clean it up and refill it in no time. 

I think its a good idea to figure out how you want to harvest, do you want to make queens, how much weight are you willing to lift, and a bunch of other stuff, and THEN only make your decisions on what equipment to buy. Personal opinion here, but foundationless takes some skills you need time to learn. If it were me, I'd start with some kind of foundation and add just a few foundationless frames to see how you like them and if you can manage them. Then on your next hive you can go more and more foundationless if you like the results.

As to who to buy equipment from, whoever you choose, make sure you really like them. Then stick to that line of equipment. That way you avoid the hassle of mismatched sizes that don't work together. But if you buy one brand of boxes, a different brand of frames, and a 3rd brand of foundation, you can wind up with the bee space being thrown off and the bees gluing everything shut or filling all the wrong places with cells. You can even wind up with frames that don't fit in the box.

HTH

Rusty

edited to add: Even worse are 2 brands of boxes, one where the bee space is on the bottom and one where it's on the top. You can wind up with a hive you cannot take apart without killing bees and brood every time you move a box.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Welcome Seth!


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