# switching to small cell . How do i do it?



## buzzzz (Mar 7, 2013)

Hi I have all large cell frames in 10 frame deep at this time . I lost 15 out of 32 hives to mite related problems and want to switch over to 4.9 Mann Lake PF120 frames. I have ordered 30 new packages for 2014 and want to get them on there way to regression when I install them. what would be the best way to go about this ? I want to use the 75 deeps with comb I have for honey suppers or something is this possible ? I have read Michael Bushes book and met him at a IBA meeting a few weeks back but I am a little unclear about how to start new packages to get to the goal of 4.9 comb size and to use the equipment I have . Can I just put them on the pf120 and feed them or do I have to do something else . I do not want to go foundationless at this time but want to get the bees down to small cell size and use my big cell for suppers if I can.

 Thanks Buzzzz


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## LSHonda310 (Mar 30, 2013)

How old were the hives that died out? Did you treat your hives in any way?
I just started this year and have low mite counts, but I did brood breaks and dribbled the bees with a homemade "honey bee healthy" to keeps mite levels low
I would think that you need to keep your mites in control before you regress to small cell
I have thought about small cell, but I think natural comb in the brood chamber would be better, and use up your foundation in the supers.


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## buzzzz (Mar 7, 2013)

LSHonda310 said:


> How old were the hives that died out? Did you treat your hives in any way?
> I just started this year and have low mite counts, but I did brood breaks and dribbled the bees with a homemade "honey bee healthy" to keeps mite levels low
> I would think that you need to keep your mites in control before you regress to small cell
> I have thought about small cell, but I think natural comb in the brood chamber would be better, and use up your foundation in the supers.


They was first year hives with 2 deeps brood and 1 supper honey. To me regressing to small cell is a way to help cut down on mites. I was trying to be treatment free. I had a 3 week period in July that I could not get into the hives because I was out of state working and things went south very quick. I plan on using QA treatments this year to treat for mites till I am small cell. I do not want to go natural comb with these deep frames at this time I have a lot of money tied up in equipment and I do not have the cash to switch to 8 frame equipment at this time.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I would put the bees directly on to the 4.9mm foundation. That is what I did. You have to scrape off some false starts, in my experience but most colonies fall right into line with the new size after a few brood cycles. I found it also helps to run them thru a table saw and trim them down to 1 1/4 and draw them 11 to a box. Mr. Bush has the eloquent reason for this in print so I see no need to be redundant. It is not hard really. Just be heavily feeding or on a flow when drawing any foundation.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

I agree with Vance, put them straight on the plastic and feed. One addition that I have done it to give them a frame of drawn comb to start laying in right away, but than pull it as soon as you can. However it may be more trouble than it is worth.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

I don't know your local conditions, just guessing here from mine and other beekeepers experiences in my local. I know one new beek that lost most of his hive the first couple of years, he swore the fungicide sprayed on nearby crops killed them, ( he is a biologist ) The time of year he lost them and the fact that his bees were found dead in the cells headfirst with their butts sticking out tells me they most likely starved. I am just saying look very hard at the basic reasons your bees died, healthy bees are usually that way from several positive things happening at the same time and unhealthy bees are that way from several negative things happening at the same time. When I started I got some very good advice, start slow and learn as you go. Since it may be too late for that advice to help you, I would suggest you turn to one or two of the best beekeepers you can find, maybe one local and the other someone like Michael Bush. Trying to get advice from a bunch of people at one time may be alright for a small hobbyist, but you need good clear advice fast due to the amount of money you have invested. I hope I don't sound like a know it all, all of us or still learning and none of us knows all the answers. Good Luck.


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## monrovi (Jan 22, 2012)

Vance G said:


> I found it also helps to run them thru a table saw and trim them down to 1 1/4 and draw them 11 to a box.


I second that. I have had much better results getting nicely drawn comb with narrowed frames compared to the few I have left standard width. I'd use the deeps you have for honey supers. Just make sure that you use an excluder


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## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

If you really want to go treatment free w/ the amount you have invested I'd suggest only doing that w/ half your stock. Even with the small cell you will still have large die offs for a few years if you are not treating in some way--can be thymol or MAQS.

I know some folks swear by small cell but I haven't seen any published data that suggests it actually reduces mite loads compared to large cell when all other variables are equal. Have seen a few publications finding no difference, however.

Ignoring them for three weeks in July will not cause mite loads to increase more unless you would have treated otherwise. However, if there was a dearth then they could have eaten through their stores causing them to be light in the fall. If they were all first year hives then most likely something else is going on--or they came from infested stock.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I don't see the small cell as an instant panacea however, worker brood does emerge a day earlier than 5.4 and that just has to knock down the number of mites mature enough to leave the cell with the new bee. 

Additionally, those extra 1600 cells on a deep frame have to mean that the colony can cover more brood and build up faster than the 5.4 bees---given comparative genetics! 

Additionally, the pf frames are at least as cheap as one can put together a wooden frame and foundation. If one decides that the experiment is not a success, the frames are instantly interchangeable with any other type after being drawn so nothing is lost. One cannot leave them out in the sun with impunity and some large commercial extractors don't like them, but most of us are not deeply affected by those limitations. I like em and have no difficulties with them.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would just put them on the PF120s. I have no use for a queen excluder in a honey production hive and so I have no use for large cell comb a queen might lay in. I would dispose of all the large cell comb.


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## Duranthas (Mar 17, 2012)

I was told that if that is all you give them, then that is what they will use. I did just that and they took right to it. Be warned however, I discovered that since all they had was small cell they completely glued the frames together between upper and lower boxes with burr comb trying to make drones.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Duranthas said:


> I discovered that since all they had was small cell they completely glued the frames together between upper and lower boxes with burr comb trying to make drones.


Ditto, So I have taken to adding foundationless frames back in once the SC is drawn out. I mostly have the outer 2-3 frames as foundationless frames.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Be warned however, I discovered that since all they had was small cell they completely glued the frames together between upper and lower boxes with burr comb trying to make drones. 

They do the same with Pierco. (see a recently revived thread on that subject if you search) and it is not because of the cell size, but the thickness of the top bar.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?205793-Perico-Frames-and-Burr-Comb


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## Duranthas (Mar 17, 2012)

Funky,because once I had them regressed and started adding foundationless between pf 120 they really calmed down on the burr/brace comb. They didn't completely stop it but the difference was significant. The first few frames of foundationless freaked me out because the cell size was so much bigger that I thought they weren't really regressed but the vast majority of cappings are the puffed out drone variety.


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## buzzzz (Mar 7, 2013)

Vance G said:


> I would put the bees directly on to the 4.9mm foundation. That is what I did. You have to scrape off some false starts, in my experience but most colonies fall right into line with the new size after a few brood cycles. I found it also helps to run them thru a table saw and trim them down to 1 1/4 and draw them 11 to a box. Mr. Bush has the eloquent reason for this in print so I see no need to be redundant. It is not hard really. Just be heavily feeding or on a flow when drawing any foundation.


 Thanks that's what I want to do but I was not for sure if it was a good way to go about it . This pf120 is plastic frames and foundation ,I am not sure if I can cut it down to 1 1/4.


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## buzzzz (Mar 7, 2013)

stan.vick said:


> I don't know your local conditions, just guessing here from mine and other beekeepers experiences in my local. I know one new beek that lost most of his hive the first couple of years, he swore the fungicide sprayed on nearby crops killed them, ( he is a biologist ) The time of year he lost them and the fact that his bees were found dead in the cells headfirst with their butts sticking out tells me they most likely starved. I am just saying look very hard at the basic reasons your bees died, healthy bees are usually that way from several positive things happening at the same time and unhealthy bees are that way from several negative things happening at the same time. When I started I got some very good advice, start slow and learn as you go. Since it may be too late for that advice to help you, I would suggest you turn to one or two of the best beekeepers you can find, maybe one local and the other someone like Michael Bush. Trying to get advice from a bunch of people at one time may be alright for a small hobbyist, but you need good clear advice fast due to the amount of money you have invested. I hope I don't sound like a know it all, all of us or still learning and none of us knows all the answers. Good Luck.


Thank you You know the truth hurts some times, your right I jumped in a little to fast spent a lot of money and now i'm thinking it more of a challenge to keep bees alive than how much honey they can produce. Thank God I pack honey on the side to help pay for my mess ups .


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

CUTTING DOWN PFxxx FRAMES: I set my tablesaw with a generic carbide blade at 1-1/4" I hold frame in the middle with the top facing blade and push it thru then pivot wrist and do the SAME side of the other end. I put every cut frame in the box with the cut sides matching. I then take a sharpie and draw a vee on each topbar toward the cut and keep that relationship til the frames are fully drawn and basically as long as I am running them 11 to a box. On my supers, I thin them out to 9 or 8 frames per box after they are drawn. Just don't go to sleep and hurt yourself with the saw when trimming the frames. It is so easy an old fat man who has had a couple of strokes and heart failure can do it! Wear eye protection! You only have two!


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## buzzzz (Mar 7, 2013)

thanks I have wondered if 12 of the hives did have some kind of virus they started out as 5 frame nucs I got this spring 6 was on a organic farm and 6 was on a farm that grew produce the 6 on the organic farm done great I was able to take some honey off the first of July, the other 6 never did really take off these was local bees with northern CA. queens. those 12 hives 20 miles apart died the same week. From what I read on cell size I think a 2 day shorter life span on a mite would have to make a big drop in mite counts.


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## buzzzz (Mar 7, 2013)

Thanks Thanks for the safety dips because almost a year ago, Dec. 28th I cut the ends of my fingers off on a table saw building bottom boards.


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## buzzzz (Mar 7, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> I would just put them on the PF120s. I have no use for a queen excluder in a honey production hive and so I have no use for large cell comb a queen might lay in. I would dispose of all the large cell comb.


Thanks Michael that's what I need to know will it be taking a chance of ruining the regression .


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## buzzzz (Mar 7, 2013)

Duranthas said:


> I was told that if that is all you give them, then that is what they will use. I did just that and they took right to it. Be warned however, I discovered that since all they had was small cell they completely glued the frames together between upper and lower boxes with burr comb trying to make drones.


thanks I like drones.


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## buzzzz (Mar 7, 2013)

Thanks for all the help the lord knows I need it.


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## nolefan1985 (Mar 23, 2016)

I installed a nuc one week ago and inserted foundationless frames with starter sticks in between drawn frames from the nuc. 4.9 plastic foundation frames I put at either end. I made sure the hive was level side to side. Today was my first inspection and I was shocked. The more centered foundationless frames have comb built out almost to all sides! I took an outer frame that just had a couple of inches of comb and measured it---disappointed to find that it was still 5.4 but I will keep at it. They have not touched the plastic frames on either end


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## nolefan1985 (Mar 23, 2016)

I just used my husband's new belt sander and it was terrific at shaving frames to 1 1/4 inches! Safe and very quick


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

some years ago I started with purchased nucs from a commercial operation. I put them on foundation-less frames. The results were horrible. I succeeded only after acquiring survivor bees. The survivor bees were small and made smaller cells, but I think the reason they survived was not because they made smaller cells, but because they had learned to survive without our help. So I am skeptical of regressing commercial bees. Why not try to trap some swarms away from any beekeepers, or get on your 911 call list. My sister in Thomasville has caught several swarms that way.


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## ValC (May 27, 2016)

This is my first year bee keeping. I wanted to go foundationless but the packages that I bought were not building comb as fast as I had expected so I broke the foundation into fourths and put 1/4 on each side of the frame leaving the center open and they have really gone to town making comb. I wanted the bees to decide what size they wanted.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I've found they do not like plastic frames. I have some small cell that they build fins off that I had to take out and replace with foundationless. 

Now I did put extra wax on some, and put them directly in the brood nest. These got drawn out nicely. A trick from Harley I believe is to pour some wax into a toilet paper cylinder mold, and rub wax on on site if necessary. I used a roller. Trouble is that a new beek doesn't have lots of wax to play with. 

My foundationless seem to run about 5.1. I wanted to introduce some small cell in the heart of the brood nest to see what happens.


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## ValC (May 27, 2016)

lharder said:


> I've found they do not like plastic frames. I have some small cell that they build fins off that I had to take out and replace with foundationless.
> 
> Now I did put extra wax on some, and put them directly in the brood nest. These got drawn out nicely. A trick from Harley I believe is to pour some wax into a toilet paper cylinder mold, and rub wax on on site if necessary. I used a roller. Trouble is that a new beek doesn't have lots of wax to play with.
> 
> My foundationless seem to run about 5.1. I wanted to introduce some small cell in the heart of the brood nest to see what happens.


I tried putting empty frames positioned between two frames with plastic foundation but they didn't seem to be interested in the empty frames. That is when I started using frames with partial foundations inserted. My plan was to rotate the frames until there are only partial frames then integrate into foundationless frames. I'm not sure what size my foundation is but my hope was that the bees would produce smaller cells with the newer comb. 

I do have a little extra wax from burr comb which I can use. I think I will try using a small cylinder made from cardboard instead of the toilet paper roll until I get enough wax for the larger roll.

Can't blame the bee sisters for not linking plastic foundation, if I had the choice between a plastic ring or a gold one I'd take the gold.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

ValC said:


> I tried putting empty frames positioned between two frames with plastic foundation but they didn't seem to be interested in the empty frames. That is when I started using frames with partial foundations inserted. My plan was to rotate the frames until there are only partial frames then integrate into foundationless frames. I'm not sure what size my foundation is but my hope was that the bees would produce smaller cells with the newer comb.
> 
> I do have a little extra wax from burr comb which I can use. I think I will try using a small cylinder made from cardboard instead of the toilet paper roll until I get enough wax for the larger roll.
> 
> Can't blame the bee sisters for not linking plastic foundation, if I had the choice between a plastic ring or a gold one I'd take the gold.


I've done the same, say a super of alternating plastic frames with foundationless. Bees don't seem to really see it. As the start to fill up the boxes they are in. I'll pull up a couple frames with brood and they start populating and filling the box with wax. At the same time they will move the brood nest up in response to this and maybe leave some comb behind in the lower boxes. This time of year, they are starting to put away some honey. If they have some empty comb underneath, then I put it right above their brood nest and I'll start pyramiding down. I always want them building some comb when there is a flow even if they have some comb. But I'm still learning and am sure I will change my mind on this.


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