# switching to natural/ 4.9 cell size input?



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

What is your thinking on going small cell. Small cell is not natural cell, btw. If you already have 10 frame equipment, don't get 8 frame for the new set up, or just sell off all your 10 frame stuff and get all 8 frame if you really want to do 8 frame. Mann Lake carries small cell wax foundation.


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## DunesGirl (Aug 26, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> What is your thinking on going small cell. Small cell is not natural cell, btw. If you already have 10 frame equipment, don't get 8 frame for the new set up, or just sell off all your 10 frame stuff and get all 8 frame if you really want to do 8 frame. Mann Lake carries small cell wax foundation.


going small cell thinking it won't hurt, may help. I used the term "natural" as more of a tag since some refer to it as such, for search purposes. 8 or 10 frame: I'm 5'3" and the less weight, easier maneuverability the better. But I may reconsider since they will be mediums. Mann Lake has the small cell wax, yes. But not plastic small cell foundation as far as I know...except for that which comes in the plastic frames (PF100's etc) ? Thanks for the feedback.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

I've been doing small cell since 2000-2002. I would recommend if your going to go to 8 frame mediums to do it now rather than later things get tougher the longer you put them off. That choice is yours. I personally don't like all the breaks in comb that going from one box to the next causes. But honey bees deal with what you give them anyways as they are quite able to adapt. Did you call Mann lake to see if they could substitute the sc frames in the all in one? 

>>I've never used wax foundation, and I am pretty new at this. I've read a lot about wired/not wired but can't decide. Since its all mediums I think I would be ok with unwired? 

reply:

Plz wire them or you will have a mess. Here is Dee Lusby, leading small cell proponent showing how to wire frames and make and embed wax foundation 
http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index....ives/77-working-beeswax-with-dee-and-ed-lusby

>>I'm not sure about having 2 with plastic frames, and then the one with wooden/wax foundation. On the up side it will give me an opportunity to see for myself how the wax foundation is to >>work with. On the downside I won't be able to swap/borrow with the other 2. Thanks in advance for any feedback. 

reply:

If there all medium frames you can mix them among the hives.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

DunesGirl said:


> Mann Lake has the small cell wax, yes. But not plastic small cell foundation as far as I know...except for that which comes in the plastic frames (PF100's etc) ? Thanks for the feedback.


If you really want a high percent of sc, I'd be very cautious about using wax foundation. Bees can easily build lc on it, making it worse at times than just going with lc to begin with. I've liked the result of the plastic, but hate the plastic frames, so I cut the foundation out of the frames and put it into wood frames.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

If you are concerned about cost cut your deeps down to mediums and just order pf120's for the broodnest. You can always switch to 8 frame boxes later , you can also use your normal cell frames for honey supers without effecting your bees so don't toss em


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## DunesGirl (Aug 26, 2013)

Clayton Huestis said:


> Did you call Mann lake to see if they could substitute the sc frames in the all in one?
> 
> 
> If there all medium frames you can mix them among the hives.



Yes I called, no go. But as it turns out, it was a lot cheaper to just piece it out through Kelley, so I ended up just ordering more of the PFs from Mann Lake since I didnt automatically get the frames/foundation with the deal. I thought I read that you shouldn't use 2 foundation types in a hive? It won't matter now since I have all plastic, but I'm curious. Thanks so much.


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## DunesGirl (Aug 26, 2013)

Barry said:


> If you really want a high percent of sc, I'd be very cautious about using wax foundation. Bees can easily build lc on it, making it worse at times than just going with lc to begin with. I've liked the result of the plastic, but hate the plastic frames, so I cut the foundation out of the frames and put it into wood frames.


Barry, thanks for the input. I ended up with all PF since it was less expensive to piece out the new hive. The PFs were the same price as new wax sc foundation, go figure. But I am planning to cut some of the PF sc foundation out of the plastic frame for sure and put in wooden frames. I saw an interesting post here about cutting the sheets in 3, and only using 1/3 of the sheet running top to bottom, bookended between two full sheeted frames. Might be a good opportunity to try that.


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## DunesGirl (Aug 26, 2013)

Harley Craig said:


> If you are concerned about cost cut your deeps down to mediums and just order pf120's for the broodnest. You can always switch to 8 frame boxes later , you can also use your normal cell frames for honey supers without effecting your bees so don't toss em


ah...I hadn't thought of being able to use the 5.4 for supers. thanks! Yes, Im going to have my hands full with assembling boxes and cutting down the PF frames to 1 1/4. As you said, I think I will just wait on the switch to all 8 frame, at least they'll all be Mediums and all SC. 

being that you loose a few inches not having deeps, how many medium boxes do the bees usually need to make up for that lost space? Do they typically use 2 mediums for brood? Thanks for your time.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I run 8 frame mediums here in IL and they will run brood in 3 sometimes 4 if I let them chimney up


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## rfgreenwell (Feb 14, 2010)

DunesGirl said:


> I thought I read that you shouldn't use 2 foundation types in a hive? It won't matter now since I have all plastic, but I'm curious. Thanks so much.


True mixing different undrawn foundations in the same hive mixes the bees up and should be avoided, but once drawn out, the frames can be mixed in a hive. Just watch out for differences in beespacing...some space top and some space bottom, and when mixing can result in a lot of extra propolising or burr comb between boxes.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

rfgreenwell said:


> True mixing different undrawn foundations in the same hive mixes the bees up and should be avoided, but once drawn out, the frames can be mixed in a hive. Just watch out for differences in beespacing...some space top and some space bottom, and when mixing can result in a lot of extra propolising or burr comb between boxes.


Good call pointing out bur comb between boxes.The PF series of frames seem to be bad about causing that supposedly it's on purpose to allow room for drone comb. When I started giving them a foundationless on either side of the broodnest the drone comb between frames stopped and mostly just get little ladder burs to get them to the next frame


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Since its all mediums I think I would be ok with unwired? 

Wax is kind of hard to predict as it depends on how far in advance you put it in, and how hot the weather gets. Keeping the foundation flat and not buckled can be tricky if it gets hot.

>For the old hives: I will have to cut down my deeps to medium. Order 5 new, 10 frame, medium boxes to assemble (as extras). 


If you want to end up with 8 frame boxes, then stop buying ten frame boxes. You can mix the two in the meantime. Put the eight frame on top of the ten frame and put a 20" long one by three over the gap.

>Order 40 PF120 in black, 80 new PF120 in white (for the 4 old mediums, plus 4 of the new boxes...the last box i will cut down to an 8 frame before assembly to use as an extra for the new hive and get another 8 frames of PF120 white for that) sound right? It's painful to think about all the old wooden frames I will no longer need.

You can feed them into the brood nest over time and get some nice natural comb.

>I'm not sure about having 2 with plastic frames, and then the one with wooden/wax foundation. 

Not an issue.

>On the up side it will give me an opportunity to see for myself how the wax foundation is to work with. On the downside I won't be able to swap/borrow with the other 2.

Of course you can.

>I thought I read that you shouldn't use 2 foundation types in a hive?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfallacies.htm#waxplastic


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

DunesGirl said:


> third year beekeeper here in the Indiana Dunes. I had lots of queen issues past summer and lost both (2/only) hives. So I am basically starting fresh but with my old equipment of 2 hives,10 frame, deeps and mediums with large cell plastic foundation. I've got 3 packages coming of 4.9 bees. I need to wrap my head around what I need to purchase, cut, remake etc. Ideally, I'd like to also have all 8 frame mediums. But since this is going to take some time/effort, I think I will wait another year to cut down to 8 frame. But I will cut down all to mediums since I have to get mew 4.9 foundation anyway.
> 
> Tell me what you think, if i have forgotten something, haven't thought of something, if there's an easier way about this: I need one whole new hive set up, so Im thinking I will just buy that in 8 frame, all mediums, with the frames and small cell wax foundation. Im going to switch to PF 120s for my old hives...but the "all in one" set ups don't give that option. I was not planning to go with wax, but I think it'll be more expensive to piece out a whole hive set up just so I can use PF 120s across the board. ? I've never used wax foundation, and I am pretty new at this. I've read a lot about wired/not wired but can't decide. Since its all mediums I think I would be ok with unwired?
> 
> ...


If you haven't done so already get Michael Bush's "Practical Beekeeping" book. You sound like you are heading for his program anyway.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Barry said:


> If you really want a high percent of sc, I'd be very cautious about using wax foundation. Bees can easily build lc on it, making it worse at times than just going with lc to begin with. I've liked the result of the plastic, but hate the plastic frames, so I cut the foundation out of the frames and put it into wood frames.


 Mann Lake sells the wood frames with plastic inserts. A lot of beekeepers and a lot of bees really like the wax foundation. Jennifer Berry, at the NC-SC winter meeting said that the national wax supply is so polluted that the wax in the foundation sold is as bad as the old combs that it replaces.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

DunesGirl said:


> Yes I called, no go. But as it turns out, it was a lot cheaper to just piece it out through Kelley, so I ended up just ordering more of the PFs from Mann Lake since I didnt automatically get the frames/foundation with the deal. I thought I read that you shouldn't use 2 foundation types in a hive? It won't matter now since I have all plastic, but I'm curious. Thanks so much.



I have a lot of wax, that came when I bought hives or nucs, but I buy only wax-coated plasticell. The bees will draw it fine if there is no wax foundation that is undrawn. It's kind of like offering your kids baked rutabega or chocolate cake.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

dsegrest said:


> Mann Lake sells the wood frames with plastic inserts. A lot of beekeepers and a lot of bees really like the wax foundation. Jennifer Berry, at the NC-SC winter meeting said that the national wax supply is so polluted that the wax in the foundation sold is as bad as the old combs that it replaces.


Not with sc foundation.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Mann lake standard plastic frames the PF frames are 4.9
All my brood frames are 4.9 or natural & I would recommend it.
Had 14 of 14 survive winter without chemical treatment, just IPM & small cell


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Dan, out of curiosity, what are your cluster sizes at about now.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

> Jennifer Berry, at the NC-SC winter meeting said that the national wax supply is so polluted that the wax in the foundation sold is as bad as the old combs that it replaces.


This could only be possible if the wax used for foundation was actually made from those old brood combs.
But most wax comes from honey cappings which have a lot less pollution because they are not "old" as in having done many seasons in a brood nest, they are made from freshly bee made wax during a honey flow when there is normally no treatment in a hive.

Having said that wax used for foundation is still polluted by both beekeeper applied chemicals and also chemicals the bees bring back from the outside environment.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Having said that wax used for foundation is still polluted by both beekeeper applied chemicals and also chemicals the bees bring back from the outside environment.


Remembering too that foundation constitutes a very small percentage of the wax in the cells that are finally drawn on it. Whatever contamination it might contain will be a miniscule part of the finished comb.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I read a study a month or so ago that said the act of drawing out the foundation will reduce the amount of chemical in the wax by half. Has anyone seen any figures on the amount of chemical contamination found in wax foundation of U.S. manufacture and the residue amount if each chemical that causes problems with larvae development?


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Hives are ranging from a few frames- 10 frame clusters. 



JRG13 said:


> Dan, out of curiosity, what are your cluster sizes at about now.


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## brothermoo (May 8, 2014)

AR Beekeeper said:


> I read a study a month or so ago that said the act of drawing out the foundation will reduce the amount of chemical in the wax by half. Has anyone seen any figures on the amount of chemical contamination found in wax foundation of U.S. manufacture and the residue amount if each chemical that causes problems with larvae development?


This is probably true because it has been shown that within a colony any residues spread throughout all the wax. So the same amount is in there just less per volume of wax.


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## ikkybeer (Jan 11, 2006)

A timely thread for me, I've ordered 4 packages and want to raise them small cell. I also have a permacomb order coming which I intend to stick in wooden medium frames. I've also got black plastic 4.9 foundation from MannLake (also will be inserted in wood). 

I was wondering, is it advisable to mix in a couple frames of plastic foundation (and maybe a drone comb) in between the permacomb to serve as guides for the first box and even successive boxes? Will that deter the queen from being initially forced (as I think I read MB elsewhere) to use the permacomb?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

ikkybeer said:


> I've also got black plastic 4.9 foundation from MannLake (also will be inserted in wood).


Are you sure about this?


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

Or one could go foundationless and let the bees decide what size cells they want to build. Don't get me wrong, I'm not directly advocating any specific approach to this, but after thinking it through I believe that this is the route I will choose. The cost savings make it attractive regardless of large cell/small cell ideals.


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## ikkybeer (Jan 11, 2006)

beemandan said:


> Are you sure about this?


Yes. They sell 4.9 (pf117) in waxed plastic frames, I cut them up.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>...I also have a permacomb order coming which I intend to stick in wooden medium frames.

Why? They are already fully drawn comb with a top bar. No need for frames.

> I've also got black plastic 4.9 foundation from MannLake (also will be inserted in wood). 

I don't know of any 4.9 plastic that is in sheets in their current catalog nor anywhere else. Only the PF100s and PF120s which are all one piece frame and foundation. The sheets that Mann Lake sells are 5.4mm.

>I was wondering, is it advisable to mix in a couple frames of plastic foundation (and maybe a drone comb) in between the permacomb to serve as guides for the first box and even successive boxes? 

If you have PermaComb why do you think you need guides? Something parallel to what you want to end up with is useful in the middle of foundationless, but you are not saying you are using foundationless.

>Will that deter the queen from being initially forced (as I think I read MB elsewhere) to use the permacomb?

The bees will work in order of their preference almost every time. Meaning, foundationless first, then wax foundation, then plastic foundation, then plastic comb. If you are not going to wax dip the PermaComb (a complex messy proposition) then you will probably have to force them to use it the first time, which means they have to run out of anywhere else to go. It's easier to do this is there are no more tantalizing options to fall back on or for them to remember as being nicer. In other words an entire box of PermaComb will be accepted better than a mixed box.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfallacies.htm#waxplastic

Also, I would say that PermaComb is about 5.05mm, not 4.9mm. PF100s and PF120s (and the entire PF100 series) are 4.94mm. I wax coated all my PermaComb. Don't confuse PermaComb with PermaDent or RiteCell or Pierco or Duragilt. PermaComb is like Honey Super Cell but it has no spacers and it only comes in medium depth. Honey Super Cell is 4.9mm and only really comes in deeps although Simpson is cutting them down for you if you like:
http://www.simpsonsbeesupply.com/

I heated my PermaComb to 212 F or so and beeswax dipped it (wax in a double boiler so it's not too hot) and shook off the excess. If you don't heat it, the wax will clump up and make a mess. If you fill it with wax and shake it off, then you make a mess doing that, but the combs are nice. It was a very messy but I got perfect acceptance and 4.9mm or smaller cell size. Now that the HSC is available I'd probably just slog through the acceptance issues with it before I'd dip a lot more PermaComb.


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## ikkybeer (Jan 11, 2006)

> I heated my PermaComb to 212 F or so and beeswax dipped it (wax in a double boiler so it's not too hot) and shook off the excess. If you don't heat it, the wax will clump up and make a mess. If you fill it with wax and shake it off, then you make a mess doing that, but the combs are nice. It was a very messy but I got perfect acceptance and 4.9mm or smaller cell size. Now that the HSC is available I'd probably just slog through the acceptance issues with it before I'd dip a lot more PermaComb.


I've done that and melted some frames in the oven, and then made a big mess on the back deck, now I just spray them with syrup, lol.

I'll take your advice on filling the box with permacomb only. I have an old hive that I have been feeding permacomb frames into, mixing them with wooden frames and it seems I have to pay a little more attention to the spacing which would be eliminated with wooden frames. Also, it seems that burr comb also causes them to stick more often to the frames below.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

try melting the wax in an electric frypan then painting it on the plastic with a paint roller. That's all I do, can do around 900 frames per day and no special equipment required.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I've done that and melted some frames in the oven, and then made a big mess on the back deck, now I just spray them with syrup, lol.

Yes, I've melted one or two. As soon as you top 220 F it melts. Which is why I had an oven thermometer in the oven and kept a close eye.

>try melting the wax in an electric frypan then painting it on the plastic with a paint roller. That's all I do, can do around 900 frames per day and no special equipment required.

It might help to have some on the mouths of the cells, but my intent was to reduce the cell size by coating the inside of the cell, which also, as a byproduct produced perfect acceptance.


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## DunesGirl (Aug 26, 2013)

Hello all, just wanted to jump in and thank everyone for the additional comments. I just checked the thread on a whim and was pleasantly surprised to see more info being shared. 

Ikkybeer: t's comforting to know I'm not going this alone  I'll follow your progress, good luck. Are you cutting down your wooden frames for narrow beespacing? Just curious, as I'm on the fence with buying a new blade to chop the mannlake PFS to make them slimmer...

Thanks again everyone. We got a little break here in the Southern Great Lakes (50s and the snow is melting) getting excited to get started! But also super weary of Old Man Winter blowing back into town, maybe just in time for April Fools


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## ikkybeer (Jan 11, 2006)

> Ikkybeer: t's comforting to know I'm not going this alone  I'll follow your progress, good luck. Are you cutting down your wooden frames for narrow beespacing? Just curious, as I'm on the fence with buying a new blade to chop the mannlake PFS to make them slimmer...


Yes, I'll be cutting them down to 1.25". I bought the deep PFs and cut them out of the frames with a knife and trimmed them down to fit like foundation in medium frames. It left me 3" strips which I'm thinking I could use as some sort of starter strip or even glue or attach them together to make some more foundation. 

I have been nursing along my first hive from 8 years ago, treatment free and without me doing any requeening. Last year I got 6 gallons out of the hive and it motivated me to try something a little more organized, consistent, and natural this year.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Ikkybeer, if you don't delete the quote 'formatting codes' when preparing your posts, then the quotes will be more readable, and look like this:


DunesGirl said:


> Ikkybeer: t's comforting to know I'm not going this alone I'll follow your progress, good luck. Are you cutting down your wooden frames for narrow beespacing? Just curious, as I'm on the fence with buying a new blade to chop the mannlake PFS to make them slimmer...


The key is to leave the [QUOTE="DunesGirl, post: 1233734, member: 96681"] .... ... [/QUOTE] codes alone when editing the quote. The codes _must _begin and end with the square brackets as shown.  And those numbers are internal pointers so that clicking the embedded blue arrow takes the reader to the correct quote.


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## ikkybeer (Jan 11, 2006)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Ikkybeer, if you don't delete the quote 'formatting codes' when preparing your posts, then the quotes will be more readable, and look like this:
> x


Thanks. I guess I left evidence of exactly how I messed it up, lol.


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## brothermoo (May 8, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >
> 
> > I've also got black plastic 4.9 foundation from MannLake (also will be inserted in wood).
> 
> I don't know of any 4.9 plastic that is in sheets in their current catalog nor anywhere else. Only the PF100s and PF120s which are all one piece frame and foundation. The sheets that Mann Lake sells are 5.4mm.


The only small cell _anything_ available in the uk is MannLake plastic frames... and they are langstroth, i use Rose OSB (basically a british national size but shallower, so you use it for brood and supers).
I have cut these frames down, some with topbars intact and others just to insert into a wooden frame... gonna see how my bees cope with each.

Im hoping to split all my colonies down into nucs early to get them drawing worker comb on foundationless frames arranged beside the 4.9 plastic
If anything the splits will break the brood cycle and help with varroa.. but hopefully i can get my bees on a more natural cellsize!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

ikkybeer said:


> I have been nursing along my first hive from 8 years ago, treatment free and without me doing any requeening. Last year I got 6 gallons out of the hive and it motivated me to try something a little more organized, consistent, and natural this year.


So you are saying you have had one TF hive for 8 years?

I would say if your system is not broken, don't fix it.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Oldtimer my wifes hive is TF small cell on screened bottom board. Its been going about 6 years.
Went queenless once in that time & had to replace the queen with another IPM hive from the same yard.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Nice work!. Wish I could say I'd had the same success.


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## DunesGirl (Aug 26, 2013)

ikkybeer said:


> Yes, I'll be cutting them down to 1.25". I bought the deep PFs and cut them out of the frames with a knife and trimmed them down to fit like foundation in medium frames.


Mind sharing your tips for cutting the PF foundation out of the frames? You mentioned a knife? I tried a hacksaw but it was not easy to keep a line since the frame was flexing. Tried snips, too hard. Tried the chop saw, and table saw...no go. Although another blade may work better. 

Is there a how-to video on trimming wooden frames down to narrow that anyone would recommend?


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

DunesGirl:

"Mind sharing your tips for cutting the PF foundation out of the frames? " 

I have never done this before but if I wanted to I would try a high tooth count blade on a table saw. Something like a plywood or paneling blade. If not, try a band saw with a high tooth count.

"Is there a how-to video on trimming wooden frames down to narrow that anyone would recommend?"

I assume you are trying to shave a 1.375" frame down to 1.25" wide. I am unaware of a video. Take a 1/16" off each side of the end piece and a 1/16" off each side of the top bar. That would be 6 cuts per frame. Find someone used to operating a table saw and they can set it up for you. You would set it up once, run all the frames through, set it up for the next cut, etc.


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## ikkybeer (Jan 11, 2006)

DunesGirl said:


> Mind sharing your tips for cutting the PF foundation out of the frames? You mentioned a knife? I tried a hacksaw but it was not easy to keep a line since the frame was flexing. Tried snips, too hard.


I used a table saw(regular blade) to cut the frame horizontally at the right depth. I just used a utility knife and scored it twice and on each side around the edges of the frame. Then bend the frames until it snaps out. It's fairly easy.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

DunesGirl said:


> Mind sharing your tips for cutting the PF foundation out of the frames?


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?271474-PF-120-foundation


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## DunesGirl (Aug 26, 2013)

ToeOfDog said:


> DunesGirl:
> 
> "Mind sharing your tips for cutting the PF foundation out of the frames? "
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips. I think I just need to swap out the blade, it's pretty toothy. I think I've got one I used for Formica sheeting... I did find this video of how to trim the PF if you're going to stay with the plastic frame. I can't imagine it's much different. But he doesn't cut the top bar, only the sides. Thanks again! http://youtu.be/rca3V7WOfLk

And thanks Ikkybeer, for the info. You are a lot stronger than me then, there's no way I could've scored and snapped those! I did manage to get one hacked/cut, and it was difficult to even snap in the frame. The bottom groove was narrower than the foundation profile so I had to use a hammer to coax it in, and then it was a challenge to get it to flex enough to pop he other side in. It seemed a lot more rigid than the stuff I popped out. 

Barry, thank you! I'm wondering why he left the bottom bar though, especially if there was a groove? Wouldn't it have to be attached? I think I can manage now...new blade and jig.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I'd have to measure my frame opening again and see if it would work to fit the foundation into top and bottom grooves as crofter did. I'll making up some deep frames this way in a few days.


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