# Formic application methods question



## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

We use a 50% formic acid pad overnight treatment for mites. See attached data in word format, both treatment and control of our 2007 trials. this was developed by Bob Noel and Dr Amrine and presented at the Empitr State Honey Producers a few years ago.[ It works very well. You have to be VERY careful handling formic!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is a copy of the program sent to us by Bob Noel of Honey b Healthy.



We mix one part HBH, straight out of the bottle, and seven parts 50% formic acid. Mix on site because the harsh fornic breakes down the oils after so many hours. We use 65ml of the mix on a pad for single full depth colony and 85ml for a single and half (medium or shallow super). If doing two full depth colonies you will have to figure out what dose to use for your area.


Adding HBH to the 50% formic has helped reduce queen loss.


Go here to see our recent data and results: 
http://honeybhealthy.com/pads3.pdf and here for more: 
http://rnoel.50megscom/florida.htm


The following information was sent to two Canadian researchers who are 
currently testing our paper pad method:

-----------------------------------------------

We use waxed or freezer paper over the brood with gummy bears or any soft 
gummy candy that will compress under the pad. The gummies go on the frame tops to space the pad ,allowing better evaporation. The wax paper goes on top, under the wood bound excluder( the woodbound excluder allows space for the pad without having to use a shim). Empty Honey supers go back on over the excluder. This allows treatment in mid summer after the summer harvest, allows you to put the treatment on, honey supers back on and leave them, saving another trip to the yard. Bees will take out the pads.David Webb, Florida beekeeper, 
used the paper pad in the wooden fumigator on the top of his singles this 
past winter and had excellent results. Go here for results using the wooden 
fumigator: http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/Bees/FL Presentation2a.pdf

The blue spots were from raspberry flavored gummies.

David Webb, Florida commercial beekeeper, and part of our research team this 
past winter treated 800 colonies using the new paper pad. He treated in 
December during the evening when temperatures were low and all the bees were 
in the single story full depth brood chamber.

He used the paper pad in our fumigator board (removing the felt material) 
and his results were excellent, even on the weaker colonies. The next day 
when he removed the fumigator boards the bottom boards were red with mites. 
Since he did not see dead young emerging bees in the fronts of the colonies 
he thought the dose was too low, but after investigating he found dead 
varroa in the drone cells he opened. He also did not have queen loss, maybe 
the usual few older or failing queens. For several months after the treated 
colonies were practically varroa free with only trace amounts of varroa 
found in some colonies.


His dosage was:
One part HBH and seven parts 50% formic.
67 ml of the combined mixture put on the pads at time of treatment with a 
drench gun.
He put one pint 473.04 ml in a gallon seven pints 3311.3 ml prior to 
applying, he used the gallon in a short time treating many colonies. Do not 
mix the two together ahead of treatment, after so many hours the harsh 
formic turns the geraniol into geraniol formate.

You may want to test both methods, the paper pad, gummy bears with the waxed 
paper and the paper pad in the fumigator board.

Here is the fume board with the previously used bed pads: 
http://rnoel.50megscom/2000/hbhfa.htm
More: http://rnoel.50megscom/2000/part4.htm
http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/Bees/FL Presentation2a.pdf
http://rnoel.50megscom/florida.htm

Nick
gridleyhollow.com


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

a google search of mitegone will give you a site that sells pads that do not require spacers.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ND-USA&p=1224418&highlight=formic#post1224418


http://www.mitegone.com/


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## Goran (Oct 27, 2012)

Lady tampons as carrier directly on top bars( with wings), I used on several colonies, seems effective. This year intend to treat whole apiary and observe thoroughly. Had no queen losses, seems varroa decreased pretty much when made control treatment, brood rearing continued. But constant feed or if lucky some slow forage during treatment..
This isn't my idea, I just implemented what some beeks use..


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Last summer I did my own variation on the WVU method, which uses a specially-built "fumigator". Reading their procedure I decided their fumigator originated as an attempt to avoid killing the queen. 

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/FAFumigat.pdf

If you read their procedure, they noticed the queen was balled about 25% of the time. However, they finally fixed this by putting some Honey Bee Healthy in the mix. My conclusion is that the escape pathways for the queen are not needed, and in fact it is hard to imagine they did much good anyway.

So I made a simplified fumigator with a second use. It is a quilt box, a very shallow super with some #8 hardware cloth across it about 1/2 inch off the bottom. This is on the hive for the winter, with a pillowcase of cedar shavings in it, and the bees are thriving. You can add a square of aluminum flashing to make the heat spreader they show in the paper. 

What makes this thing work is the temperature control the bees themselves provide, and controlling the dose. I mixed the formic acid precisely using a hydrometer, and measured out the amount of the solution and HBH per their recommendations. The queen survived, the mites didn't. Some capped brood, mostly drones, was thrown out by the bees. I still had a small drop several weeks after treatment, so it didn't kill all the mites. I've only tried this the one time.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

We use Dri loc pads. 65% formic


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## GusK (Jan 24, 2013)

I found this document, from New Zealand's Ministry of Agriculture. On page 92 it describes several methods for using formic acid.

Has anyone used a low dose, longer term treatment with formic? In the document linked above, they describe a method using 65% formic, 30 ml, for 5-6 treatments, spaced 1-4 days apart. I guess the frequency range depends on the weather which determines the evaporation rate of formic.

Granted this method is labor intensive, due to the frequent visits required, yet it doesn't require additional equipment. I would think that the lower doses may not affect the queens as much, while the longer term aspect of the treatment would hit surviving/emerging varroa. Just speculation on my part. I'm interested because I will be treating my bees in a month or so.

However, the flash method described by funwithbees looks interesting as well.


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## EricConcE (Jan 7, 2014)

Funwithbees, I actually found a youtube video showing that method right before I saw your post - Awesome links too btw- thanks. I was wondering how you like the paper pads as an absorbent material. RAK talked about the Dri-loc pads, and I've been hearing a lot about meat pads. Would you say the paper pads are a solid method? (and if so which type of paper pad do you recommend?).


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## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

EricConcE said:


> RAK talked about the Dri-loc pads, and I've been hearing a lot about meat pads. Would you say the paper pads are a solid method? (and if so which type of paper pad do you recommend?).


Hi,
The pads worked great!. They were about 50 cents each . had to buy 500 at a time The orig supplier quit selling them to beeks due to a legal issue (didn't want beeks using them for a non govt approved way of treatment). We trialed a few different ones and the one I like best we make up of 5 layers of TOP grade Bounty paper towels. Just make sure that the pad will hold 85-100 ml of the formic without dripping on the bees.makes them a little dead if they get dripped on.:v:. A good colony will have the pad shredded and dumped in front of the colony in a day or 2 tops. The formic vaporizes in about 17 hours with this method and the 50% formic formulation actually penetrates and kills a good percent of the mites in the capped cells-if your comb is not too black.A few of us have used this for years with good results. No beekeeper type chemicals in the honey.
Nick
gridleyhollow.com


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## EricConcE (Jan 7, 2014)

funwithbees said:


> We trialed a few different ones and the one I like best we make up of 5 layers of TOP grade Bounty paper towels.


Good idea with this one- I'll definitely use that and trial a few of the meat pads to see how they work out.
For anyone interested in the method Funwithbees posted, here's a link to a video demonstration https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9tc2yek-dY


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

funwithbees said:


> ... formic formulation actually penetrates and kills a good percent of the mites in the capped cells-if your comb is not too black.
> 
> A few of us have used this for years with good results ...


More precise speaking, applied for more then 10 days, in broodless state of the bee colony, it was found that formic acid had only mean ~ 73% efficacy. 
Many bees are lost in the field. 
Disoriented. 

Applying formic acid in the bee nest is not a fun.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

SJJ kinda sounds like you are talking about Nassenheider units? If so could you please give a reference to where this was found? 

I have just started trialling Nassenheider units. The pics below show firstly the units being readied, bottles were loaded before I left home. 2nd pic the bottles in place, 3rd pic the unit in place on a hive.

Please bear in mind it is fall where I am now.


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

Just as Goran above said. Female hygienic pads, injected with 25 ml of 65% formic acid. As cheap and simple as possible. 4-6 treatments 5-7 days apart. Worked nicely on my 100 colonies last autumn.
https://mrkailo.wordpress.com/2014/12/05/formic-acid-treatment/


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

Maybe I am missing something, but why aren't people using Mite Away Quick Strips? Too expensive? Not effective method for applying formic acid? Unavailable in your region of the country/world?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

everyone that I know that used 2 pads the last couple of years, had a high rate of queen loss, and high rate of over winter losses compared to people that used other products.
and these people followed the instructions and are experienced beeks. I keep some around to use with honey supers on if needed, but only will use one pad.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

wildbranch2007 said:


> everyone that I know that used 2 pads the last couple of years, had a high rate of queen loss, and high rate of over winter losses compared to people that used other products.


I have had good success with them, no queen loss, low brood kills. Treated hives overwintered much better than untreated.

But, in my area, ambient temperatures rarely exceed the recommended maximum. Strips are generally applied when temps are low (morning or evening) and an extra empty box is placed for the first day or two, then removed. I do not treat with supers on since it seems to work best if there is a smaller area. Actually, my biggest issue is timing, having temps *high* enough when I want to treat. By the time my Fall flow ends, the temps are too low and I use Apistan instead- applied sometime during the last two weeks in October and left on until just after Thanksgiving. I know that some say Fluvalinate is no longer effective, but it has been working for me so far. I may switch to Amitraz for this year though, in order to delay any resistance that *might* be developing.

Although I have not tested the hypothesis, I suspect that the biggest issue with adverse effects of the strips is too high temperatures and too small volume in the brood chamber during the initial day or so of the application.


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## msc (Aug 9, 2015)

Did anyone use driloc pads this summer? If so how did it go? I thought about giving it a shot.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

I also had a time trying to come up with an application method I am happy with. 
I ended up getting a huge box of meat pads. I soak each 3"X4" pad in 50% solution. Each pad hold right at 10ml so iI use a 2ml per frame of bees formula. This let's me easily dose collection nines of varying strengths.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Adult diapers cut to size make good evaporator pads. A large calibrated syringe to suck up the formic and apply to the pads makes for good spill free measuring and applying. 

You can drill a small hole and with a bit of mini tubing can apply a small dose morning and night without opening hive. Easy to regulate application for temperature changes. With a light daily dose for an extended time period it may be less risky for queens or in hot weather. Bulk formic is a lot cheaper than Maqs. 

The MAQs strips have had the formulation changed to reduce queen and bee mortality, have they not?


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Just as a tip, if one is using FA it is easier to handle if kept in the freezer until needed. It will vaporize much slower when cold.


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## Swampsquash (Oct 25, 2014)

funwithbees said:


> We mix one part HBH, straight out of the bottle, and seven parts 50% formic acid. Mix on site because the harsh fornic breakes down the oils after so many hours. We use 65ml of the mix on a pad for single full depth colony and 85ml for a single and half (medium or shallow super). If doing two full depth colonies you will have to figure out what dose to use for your area.


I am new to this whole formic acid idea. If my questions have been covered I apologize as I am trying to take all this in...So If I mix the formic with the HBH like stated above, how often do I have to treat? Is this a one time treatment? Every 5 days for 5 times? Also I have read in other areas about popsicle sticks to keep the lid up. Or reducing the entrances....Should I basically follow this link(http://honeybhealthy.com/pads3.pdf) and do exactly the same thing?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Swampsquash said:


> I am new to this whole formic acid idea. If my questions have been covered I apologize as I am trying to take all this in...So If I mix the formic with the HBH like stated above, how often do I have to treat? Is this a one time treatment? Every 5 days for 5 times? Also I have read in other areas about popsicle sticks to keep the lid up. Or reducing the entrances....Should I basically follow this link(http://honeybhealthy.com/pads3.pdf) and do exactly the same thing?


First, while the WVU procedure does say to mix a little HBH into the solution, they also say that this starts a chemical reaction that degrades the mix. I've tried it and decided to apply the HBH on a separate pad instead of mixed with the formic acid.

If done properly, one treatment should kill most of the mites (maybe 85-90%), including mites on capped brood that are not treated by other methods. It does not get all of them, though. Always wait a couple of weeks and do a followup count (I prefer a powdered sugar roll because it does not kill the bee sample) to see what the remaining mite load is. If it is still above the threshold you want, treat again. One treatment may be enough to get the bees into winter, at which point you could treat again with oxalic acid when they are broodless. Not sure they go broodless down in Sarasota, though.

FA, either the WVU method or Mite Away Quick strips, is my choice for a late summer treatment. Your strategy in Florida would be different due to the temperature. They say not to treat if the temperature is above about 85 F for the period of the treatment. That limits summer use in Florida. If you're in a bee club, see what the more experienced members recommend for your area.

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/FormicAcid.pdf


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## Swampsquash (Oct 25, 2014)

Phoebee said:


> First, while the WVU procedure does say to mix a little HBH into the solution, they also say that this starts a chemical reaction that degrades the mix. I've tried it and decided to apply the HBH on a separate pad instead of mixed with the formic acid.
> 
> If done properly, one treatment should kill most of the mites (maybe 85-90%), including mites on capped brood that are not treated by other methods. It does not get all of them, though. Always wait a couple of weeks and do a followup count (I prefer a powdered sugar roll because it does not kill the bee sample) to see what the remaining mite load is. If it is still above the threshold you want, treat again. One treatment may be enough to get the bees into winter, at which point you could treat again with oxalic acid when they are broodless. Not sure they go broodless down in Sarasota, though.
> 
> ...


I agree with keeping the FA and HBH seperate. 

It's def tricky without the bees ever really going broodless. Up to this point I've been doing OAV. Unfort now that I had some outyards (some 45 mins plus away) It's hard to vaporize the hives every 5 days. I was thinking FA may be easier to do without having to worry about coming back 5 days later.
I was just curious if the PDF needed to be followed to a T or if there were things that weren't super necessary. If I put the pad on a single deep hive do I need to put the wax paper on? Esp since the above it will only be a queeen excluder and then the lid?

Unfort the local bee club meeting times and days don't work well with my schedule at all, so I'm absorbing as much as I can from BS forum as well as other resources on the web and in print.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

If by PDF you mean the West Virginia University paper, I see several things in there that I think are unnecessary and are the product of earlier attempts to get it right. Their elaborate fumigator with the queen escape passages is the main one. They report high early queen losses, apparently due to the workers balling the queen. I cannot imagine that the queen escape route helped much, since there is no particular reason for her to move up (I usually see the queen escape down when smoked). The HBH seems to be the real solution to that problem.

I just use one of my quilt boxes (just screen, no quilts) with a sheet of aluminum flashing across the screen on which I place the pads. 

The WVU procedure also calls for sealing up the hive to a much greater extent than the MAQS instructions say to. Since they essentially use the same chemical at the same concentration, and since the WVU procedure seems to hit harder and faster, if you want to try it using the MAQS instructions, I'd say that's the safer route, although maybe less effective. Follow-up testing will tell you how well it worked.

The main thing is to watch the temperatures and place the formic acid directly above the broodnest, since the bees control that temperature closely and the regulated temperature controls the rate of vaporization of the FA.

FWIW, I mix my acid using a plastic volumetric cylinder, check the results with a hydrometer I bought to handle the specific gravity they recommend. By the way, they have a bogus statement in there in which they use the specific gravity of the liquid and say it is much higher than air, so the vapor sinks. Which is like saying raindrops fall. The molecular weight of formic acid is somewhat higher than air which means that fumes straight off the pads do tend to sink initially, but as it mixes and comes to hive temperature it will spread throughout the hive. That does cause a slight overall downdraft.

Oxalic acid has a higher molecular weight than formic acid. But don't you apply that by vaporizing from the bottom?


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## Swampsquash (Oct 25, 2014)

Well I'm leaning towards the pad method on the honey bee healthy site.....both studies are done by WVU (same names on each pdf ) I just figure using the pads saves me from building one more thing to have laying around....lol


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