# Moisture content of wood and building boxes



## stoffel64 (Sep 23, 2010)

Well, I don't think that you have to care much about wood movement so much. If all the the wood has the 
same/similar moisture content you should be fine.
My only concern would be if the wood is very wet, gluing could cause some trouble. Really wet surface just don't glue 
very well.

Cheers
Stefan


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Is the wood kiln dried, air dried, or green?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Adam Foster Collins.... I use pine, cypress, and poplar rough saw from saw mills. My experience is that a 10 1/2 inch board will shrink between 1/2 and 3/4 inch over a period of one year If you have green, rough cut, or as you put it, wetish wood, and you cut it to 9 5/8 you would be looking at a finshed board, after shrink, of about 9 inches. I would say unacceptable. 

I try for 12 - 18 % moisture. This normally takes 9 months to 1 year, stripped, and air dried.

There is another good thread on this same topic in Equipment and Hardware review. 

cchoganjr


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> Or is it safe to take wetish wood and build to 9 5/8 dimensions?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Adam


I would say not. It is not only dimensional change you are concerned about it is warp and twist. Let it dry, air dry if you have to and then cut it up. Are you going to do any joining or planing?


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> Is the wood kiln dried, air dried, or green?


I believe the wood has been aired dried for some time. I doubt the mill would mill and sell green wood, but I guess it's possible. The wood is dressed, but there are a few boards where you can see it was the end of the log, and those ends are well-weathered and grey from what appears to be a considerable time outside.

I don't have a moisture meter, but I suppose I can do the "weigh-sample-dry-it-in-the-oven-and re-weigh" approach to finding out what it's moisture content is, and then go to the percentages Cleo suggests...

Adam


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## DamSutt1986 (May 26, 2012)

I built 10's of boxes this year out of hemlock that was only cut for several days. I used rebate joints instead of box/finger joints so that shrinking didn't matter. I had no trouble at all. I made sure that I had planed, cut, built and painted within 3 days though - in hopes the layers of paint would slow down the drying of the wood and keep it more stable. It worked great. No issues at all. I did not measure my boxes after a few months but they may be a bit more shallow. I know frame clearance between boxes is tight on some of them. Maybe add an extra 1/8 or 1/4 to your depth just in case. It won't be enough to matter if they don't shrink.


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

stack the wood out of the rain and and air dry it for at least 9 months.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I believe the wood has been aired dried for some time. I doubt the mill would mill and sell green wood,


I would doubt it too Adam. Cut off a 6 inch piece, measure across the width put it in an oven @250 for a couple of hours, measure again. See how much it shrinks. Keep in mind it would be easier to plane off 1/8 inch than to scab on 1/8 inch.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Ask the folks at the mill how dry it is...they may have a tester. Ask their advice.

One problem, if you allow the wood to dry too much, is cupping. I would say if the boards are cupped, the wood is very dry.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

Green lumber from a mill is actually a common practice, it takes a lot of space/time or a kiln to supply dry material..and you normally pay for that additional step. logs lying in the yard rarely drop below fiber saturation point (the moisture level at which the wood begins to shrink) The mills intentionally keep the logs damp and saw them green; it is easier on the equipment and avoids/reduces losses to end checking.

That said, if the material has been surfaced it is likely to have been at least air dried down to 14% which would be fine for outdoor work. It is rare and a bit pointless to run true green lumber through a planer.

Mike is right, just ask the mill, they should have a reasonable idea of the material's moisture content.

Ace, your test doesn't tell you anything useful except that the wood is not at 0% if there is shrinkage. The oven test is done with weight of the wood and then carried to "oven dry" or 0%MC (the point at which the sample stops losing mass) the loss in water weight relative to the weight of the dry wood then allows you to calculate the original MC of the sample. If you don't know your starting point or end points, the amount of shrinkage you see is meaningless. Once you know the MC of the material it is a simple matter to calculate the shrinkage by species and cut that the boards will reach at environmental equilibrium.

If the wood has already been planed to thickness, then Mike's point about cupping certainly comes into play...that's one reason it's best to dress lumber that is at equilibrium with it's intended use...it eliminates those stresses by removing whatever cupping has occurred as it dries to that point. If it is dressed and flat now...I would use it now

Boxes the size of hives are small enough and thin enough to self restrain mild cupping and warping forces. If you know your MC you can likely just cut your material to account for the anticipated shrinkage across the face of the board....not best practice but certainly doable.


The oven test is slow cumbersome job, and simple pin type moisture meters are cheap and reasonably accurate.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

double post


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

Ace,
Just thought about it more your suggestion could work if you dried the board untill shrinkage stopped (meaning 0% MC) and then used the dimensional change and existing shrinkage tables to back calculate the original MC. I have never heard of doing it that way but it should work. Unfortunately shrinkage is non linear so it would be somewhat inaccurate.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

windfall said:


> Ace, your test doesn't tell you anything useful except that the wood is not at 0% if there is shrinkage.


The amount of shrinkage from 14% to oven dry will be considerably less than green to oven dry. The rate at which the moisture leaves the wood decreases as the moisture content decreases. I don't know if 250 degrees for a couple of hours in a dry oven would bring the sample to 0% if the start point was 14%. I would rather doubt it. What do you think?


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

my mistake, shrinkage is linear. I was thinking of some strength properties relative to MC.

A couple hours...I doubt it. obviously dependent on species and thickness. You could get there faster with a microwave..... but really I like my moisture meter if you work regularly in wood it is 50$ that instantly eliminates all sorts of questions and guesswork.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

windfall said:


> but really I like my moisture meter if you work regularly in wood it is 50$ that instantly eliminates all sorts of questions and guesswork.


Does it? I am guessing it really only probes the surface. The surface could easily be much different then the rest of the board if the board is not in a controlled environment for a considerable amount of time.
I have used IR scanners that could only read the surface and they were 20K. A nuclear mass scanner can penetrate much deeper into a substrate but they are upwards of 100K. I can't see a $50. instrument telling you much under varying conditions. I think you would have to be very observant on controlling the variables.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I built a bunch of boxes years ago from a local mill, and the wood was air dried for about a year. After the wood is worked into boxes, it will shrink, and I found the boxes that I cut 1/8 over size shrunk to being 1/8 to small in every direction. I would not worry about it too much, as these boxes will prove their purpose for the next few years.
which ever way you look at it, these boxes will be a pain, you are going to cut them 1/8 larger than needed to allow for shrinkage, so your bee space is wrong, then they will eventually shrink , to the right size , and many will over shrink and cause you bee space problem

thats the nature of home made boxes

the guy that custom builds boxes here will measure every board before cutting into boxes and frames. quality and consistency is very important and that is why it is sometimes worth the extra money to buy them


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

Ian,
I can't say what you may have experienced or why. 1" softwood lumber properly air dried for a year should be at EMC with outdoor conditions....that is just what you want for hives or any woodwork in an exterior application. Around here that averages 12% MC and that is what my hives read after several years of use. Kiln dried material (6-8%) is going to expand and get bigger unless you live somewhere very dry. And I really don't know how the hive could shrink "in every direction"...wood movement along it's length is negligible. It sounds like the wood you used was still pretty wet.

Ace, pin meters are the industry standard. They work very well when used properly. Admittedly the 50$ units are less accurate than the 500$ but even the 50$ one is really quite useful. Pin penetration can be from 1/16" to 1"+ depending on probe type used. If your local conditions have changed radically over the last few days, the material is very thick, or it just came out of a kiln and you need an accurate reading. You simply cut 2" off the end of the board and stick the pins in the "middle".


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lumber that is sticked and left through the winter months is usually good enough for exterior use. From the middle of summer to the beginning of spring would be my choice.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I am very much concerned that some may be underestimating the amount of width shrinkage of saw mill lumber, that has not been air dried or kiln dried. I typically buy a lot of 500 board feet, of saw mill wood. As I strip stack it for drying, I normally take a piece and make the front of a nuc, cut to 9 7/8 inch and date it. Sometimes I measure it less than one year, sometimes I don't. I had several of these laying around the shop from past years, so I took a photo of two recent lots of them to show actual shrinkage. I am in Kentucky, so you likely know weather conditions year around here. It may be different where you live.

My experience over the years is, strip stacked, air dried, pine, cypress, poplar, will shrink 1/2 to 3/4 inch in one year. Almost nothing after that.

In the photo below, the nuc front on the left is poplar. It was cut 9 7/8, on 10 October 2011. It was measured on 5 March 2012 and it measured 9 9/16, In 5 months it has shrunk 5/16, Today, 18 Dec 2012 it is 9 5/16. Total shrinkage in 14 months is 9/16 inch.

The nuc on the right is Pine. It was cut 9 7/8 on 20 December 2011. Today, 18 December 2012 it measured 9 7/16. Shrinkage in 12 months is 7/16 inch. Both were cut from 1 inch green, rough saw, saw mill lumber, planed to 3/4 inch. I never know how long the log has been cut, but, I pick up the wood as soon as the mill has it cut.

I don't know if my experience is normal or not, but, it is what I have experienced and I have the pieces to show how much it shrinks. If someone cut their deep to 9 5/8, then one year later, my experience is that that box would be somewhere near 8 7/8 inch, and would be way too short for a deep super.









cchoganjr


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>It sounds like the wood you used was still pretty wet.

yes I bet it was. 

but this is my point, and it doesnt look like I said this in my last post

if your wanting to work with wood that has been dried, specify the MC reading on every board, not the average MC of the lot. This way you will get a consistent supply of dry wood. All the box makers buy their wood this way to ensure consistency otherwise we would all be buying mis matching box material. I have never bought wood this way, and dont know what conditions are used for orders like this, but I know for a fact, these guys demand an accurate MC measurement and quality cut wood.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The wood that I buy from time to time is wet enough that if I dont put the boxes together within the week of cutting, my cuts start to be off by slight bits. And that is annoying when working so hard to make accurate cuts to have to peel off some edges to make pieces fit ! lol


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

You are absolutely correct.
Consistency is critical; you can work with green(of the same MC) and account for the movement, you can work with dry (preferable) but you cannot go mixing and matching and hope for things to stay even and square.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Wood move a LOT as it drys, and it does NOT move in a linear fashion. It shrinks more along the grain that across it (hence the cup) and irregular grain will dry into irregular shapes.

Modern KD lumber, especially pine, is rarely properly equilibrated, hence the problem with boxes shrinking (they should actually grow as the MC goes from the 6-8% of properly KD lumber to the approximately 12% that is typical here). Wet lumber should be stacked properly and air dried over a summer and winter, then machined flat and straight. Cut it and assemble at once, you should NOT leave cut pieces laying about changing moisture content and warping. If you must, don't stack them on a floor, put them on one edge and separate them to keep them from absorbing or losing water on one side only, they will stay flat much better.

Wood is live material even when cut, dried, and painted, and will always move a bit with moisture content changes. This movement is fairly small if the wood was properly cut and selected for consistent grain and the wood was allowed to equilibrate properly before machining, but it's still there.

Making bee equipment from wet wood straight from the mill is asking for warped, split, and twisted boxed that are too shallow for your frames, and it's very difficult to predict how much the wood will shrink, every single log is different!

Peter

Peter


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Amazing! I had no idea that wood would shrink so much! By the way, if you face the cup into the box when warping occurs it will tighten the corners, cup facing out will spread the corners.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Just a note that I have learned from buying saw mill lumber, poplar, cypress, pine. Have the wood cut a full one inch to one and one quarter inch. After seasoning, most cupping that you get, can be taken out by planing. If you strip, (I use 4 strips on 10 ft. boards) (see photo attached) about the only ones that will cupp are the top two or three boards. The weight of the others will keep them straight as they cure.

Most saw mills will charge you for 1 inch even if they cut it 7/8. I always specify full one inch, and most often I get 1 1/8. They still charge for 1 inch. Attached photo shows how I stack my saw mill cut wood. This small stack is cyress.









cchoganjr


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

beesource needs a like button just like facebook has. If beesource had a like button, Id like that last post!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

psfred said:


> every single log is different!


Not from the same species of wood grown in earth close together.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> They still charge for 1 inch.


I think they charge by the log and from there they tell you what you want to hear.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

psfred said:


> every single log is different!





Acebird said:


> Not from the same species of wood grown in earth close together.


The depths of *Acebird ignorance* is astonishing! 

The _only _way that two logs can "not be different", is if those two logs are *identical*. And that means that since tree branches result in knots in the log, you are asserting that two logs grown "from the same species of wood grown in earth close together" will have an identical knot pattern. Completely false. 

If this really were true, I suggest you immediately patent the technique you developed to perform this feat, because the major forest product companies will soon be beating a path to your front door.

:lpf::lpf:


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Quote from Acebird.... "I think they charge by the log, and from there they tell you what you want to hear". Unquote.


Acebird... No, all the saw mills I deal with, charge by the board foot, cut lumber. They calculate the board foot, but most often consider 1 1/4 as 1 inch. They will also consider 7/8 as one inch in calculating the board feet. 7/8 is really thick enough to finish 3/4 after planing, but 1 inch or 1 1/4 gives you chance to plane out some small imperfections, so, I specify full 1 inch when I order. Requires a little more planing, but, I feel it is worth it.

Length, times width, times thickness,= board feet. I buy lots of 500 board feet at a time, and stack and cure, normally for one year. Mine is all stacked in a big barn.

I run a few square hives (13 frames) attached is a photo of one of the square hives built from saw mill cypress.









cchoganjr


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

bet those hives get heavy !


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

We use Western Red Cedar to make the top bar hives and Warre hives we sell. We kiln dry it until it's somewhere between 12-16% moisture and we find this works well.

Matt


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

As for price, what you are being told etc. Take just a quick look at something like this.
http://www.bellforestproducts.com/birdseye-maple/

Now you had to get an idea of amount of wood for the money. In the project pack lumber Birdseye maple was running more than $10 a board foot. People buying this sort of stuff know a thing or two abotu wood. OR at least they shoudl or they will get taken to the cleaners. I so a lot of wood that is sold "AS" birdseye , figured. burled or whatever that is anything but.

Here is an idea of what Burl can be.








Now you can imagine someone taking a $300 plus piece of wood like that and making an instrument that every single detail will be examined. Has a lot to be concerned about when it comes to expansion contraction. how pieces of wood fit together and how to keep them that way.

In comparison a discussion of how wood expands and contracts in regard to boxes that have been hacked up and slapped together is a bit on the overkill side. But beekeepers wanna make their own and this always seems to be part of the conversation.

So what is the problem with beehives and the wood we use for them. First of all the worst wood from any log is the stuff that comes from the outer edges of the log. and every bit of wood you use in a beehive came from their. the good stuff from the middle is cut into other lumber and sold for the prices it is worth. You don't make a purse from a sows ear. Put another way. you start with garbage lumber and you can only build something so good with it.
Mainly just understand you are looking at the two extreme ends of a very broad issue. And beekeepers are shopping at the flea market quality end of the issue. It is only going to get so good.

Next but far more important. Be educated. know what you are buying. know why it is priced as it is. be realistic in what you can expect. Are their uninformed buyers. Yes there are. and those ready to take advantage of them are plentiful. It is worse when it comes to figured or higher priced wood.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Daniel Y said:


> Mainly just understand you are looking at the two extreme ends of a very broad issue. And beekeepers are shopping at the flea market quality end of the issue. It is only going to get so good.


I doubt that, I see the wood that comes into my box maker. Its premium wood, and special ordered. The good cuts off those logs are not being set aside, they are being sent to him. Not like he is ordering maple or oak, he is ordering pine, and specifically eastern white pine because of its many qualities wanted by beekeepers. Ease to work with, light weight, cost comparisons, durability and so on.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Ian..Daniel Y.. I tend to agree somewhat with both of you. Mostly true that bee boxes are not made from premium wood, but, also true that bee boxes are made from short pieces, and you can buy short pieces that will qualify as premium wood at a low price because they cannot sell the entire board/boards as premium boards. For instance a bad spot in the middle of a 12 ft. board may keep it from being sold as a premium board, so you get the board at a flea market price, while at the same time getting lots of really good wood from the rejected board. Cut out the inferior part and you have a lot of good wood from that board. It is also possible to get to know your saw mill and they will select quality logs to cut your wood. 

There will be times you get burned, I know, I recently bought 200 bdft cypress as a test from a mill I had not dealt with before, 150 miles from me. When I arrived at the mill the boards were banded, and I did not break the bands until I returned home. To put it mildly, the cypress was very poor quality. I will not buy from them again. Buy a small quantity to check for quality before making a larger order. I often use less than 1st quality for my own boxes, nucs, or for swarm boxes, and only use 1st quality for those I sell. 

I am not a large commercial box builder so, I can afford to take more time and use as much of a board as I can. A board I have bought at a very good price. Large commercial bee companies cannot afford to take the time to cull boards as I can.

cchoganjr


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I just received my lumber order 2 weeks ago , that i placed back in August : / I am tired of having to plane the lumber , so i ordered it @ 7/8 x 9 7/8 in case it shrunk a bit, if this was wrong i don't know , but i did put it in a building and stick piled it . 

i used to just go get rough 1x10 lumber that was air dried, but i had anything from 1.5" -1 1/8 in the same board and it took forever to get it the right thickness : (

Time shall tell if i did this wrong : ) I was hoping i could build over winter , but i don't know if it will be dry enough.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Large commercial bee companies cannot afford to take the time to cull boards as I can.


Depends on how large and diverse they are. They could have their own saw mill and shop.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Ben Little.. My experience, and just my experience, (others may differ) is that if you are getting that much variation in the thickness of your boards, the mill is not using good equipment. You may need to change mills. The ones I deal with are very, very precise. Virtually no variation in thickness from one end to the other.

Not sure what lumber you are talking about, but, again my experience as stated above, rough saw will shrink 1/2 to 3/4 inch in width. I order mine 10/3/4 or 11 inch width to allow for shrinkage. 7/8 thickness will work, but, read what I wrote above.

Some wood may be usable in 3-8 months, but again, strip dried normally takes about 9 months to a year for 7/8 or 1 inch thickness.

Just my experience, Others may vary.

cchoganjr


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ben Little said:


> 1.5" -1 1/8 in the same board and it took forever to get it the right thickness


Don't fight it. Cut your boards to length first. This is where you do the culling like Cleo is doing. Thicker boards can be used for different pieces or as I do thicker walled boxes in the brood chamber. Keep the inside dimensions standard. It is a shame to just make wood chips.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ben, Ive been there too.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I did a check using the oven method and a sample of the wood. (weigh sample, bake in the oven for many hours - re-weigh, etc) I found it to be about 14% MC. Seems just about perfect given the information on this thread...

I'll probably begin cranking them out right after Christmas.

Adam


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ben Little said:


> but i did put it in a building and stick piled it .


Be careful. If it is green there has to be air movement. Open building is OK. Closed building and you could have growth problems. Watch for mold and fungus.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I found it to be about 14% MC.


Did you go one step further and measure before and after? That shrink rate could be used to confirm that the lumber they baked is about 14%. Unlikely that most people will have an accurate balance to do it your way.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Do a little homework on what part of a log a 1x would even be cut from. Then do a bit more homework on where the highest quality wood is cut from in a log. and you will find that 1X is cut from the lowest quality wood. even the best crap is still crap.



Ian said:


> I doubt that, I see the wood that comes into my box maker. Its premium wood, and special ordered. The good cuts off those logs are not being set aside, they are being sent to him. Not like he is ordering maple or oak, he is ordering pine, and specifically eastern white pine because of its many qualities wanted by beekeepers. Ease to work with, light weight, cost comparisons, durability and so on.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Daniel Y.... Don't take this wrong, I am asking a serious question, because I do not know the answer. In order to get an 11 inch board, you would not be getting wood from the outside would you? Would you not have to get into the center of most of the logs to get a 1 X 11. What type boards or whatever do the mills typically cut the best wood into (2 x 10, 2 X 4 ). Enlighten me and I won't have to do the homework. HA!!!

The mill where I get my pine starts getting 1 X 3 on the outside, then as he goes in he gets 1 X 6, then he gets to where he can make 1 X 11. I always thought the absolute center of the log was the least quality.

cchoganjr


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> I always thought the absolute center of the log was the least quality.
> 
> cchoganjr


I am not very good at detecting someone else's sarcasm. The center of the log would be the same as quarter sawn.:scratch:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

What?! Quarter sawn has to do with the direction the wood is cut, not the part of the log it comes from. Please Ace.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> The center of the log would be the same as quarter sawn.


*Wrong*. And that is not sarcasm! 

Here's an explanation of quarter sawing from a wood products industry expert:


> *Quartersawing –* this method produces high-quality, stable and often aesthetically pleasing lumber (with an attractive grain pattern). The objective is to have the growth rings approximately 45 to 90 degrees to the face of the board. Boards sawn with growth rings within 10% to the perpendicular of the board face are said to be fully quartersawn (Figure 3) or rift-sawn (Figure 4).
> 
> http://www.ont-woodlot-assoc.org/sw_Sawmillconcepts_pt1.html


If you want more info, there are diagrams (as referenced in the quote) showing various sawing techniques, along with descriptions at the link above.

:digging:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Sorry Radar, late again.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Acebird....No sarcasm here... And you and Daniel Y are way out of my league when it comes to milling logs. I don't know the first thing about it. Heck, I don't even know what quarter sawn is. (Bye the way, what is it?)

I know years ago they laid a log on the sled and it went back and forth through a fixed circular blade. Today, all the mills I do business with use a band saw and turn the log after each cut. That gives you narrow boards until you get into the center portion of the log. 

I'm out of this one. I have already told you more than I know, and I don't want to display my ignorance any more.

EDITED TO ADD....... GUESS I WAS TYPING WHILE YOU WERE EXPLAINING QUARTER SAW.

cchoganjr


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> I always thought the absolute center of the log was the least quality.


Not every wood industry sawyer saws logs the same way, but here is one that agrees with Cleo:



> Not shown in the preceding series of pictures, but continuing, the sawyer rotates the log through 90° once more and takes one more plank off, then rotates the log a final time through 180° and cuts off one last board leaving a boxed heart or cant 6" square (last picture, above right).* This heart wood(center) of the tree is low grade material for a variety of reasons. It contains the pith, cracks, and many knots from early in the tree’s life. The boxed heart goes for pallet material and other low grade wood needs.*
> 
> http://www.woodcentral.com/articles/reviews/articles_809c.shtml


The are lots of photos and clear descriptions of decisions made in the course of sawing a log at the link above.

Note that the link I provided is describing _hardwood _sawing, where as bee boxes may or may not be made from _softwood_.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Hey Barry, I'm pedaling as fast as I can! 

Our posts have identical timestamps, but yours precedes mine, so I guess you did beat me. But, I had to find a decent link to support my statements. 

:ws:

I sure like _animated _icons! :lpf:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> What?! Quarter sawn has to do with the direction the wood is cut, not the part of the log it comes from. Please Ace.


OK Barry show me what you know...
The purpose of quarter sawn lumber is to get the annular rings perpendicular to the face of the board. Now explain to me what happens when you slab a board off from the center of the log. I will do it for you. If you rip this board down the center you will have the best 2 pieces from a quarter sawn log. The annular rings get less perpendicular as you move away form center.
Do you need a diagram?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> OK Barry show me what you know...
> 
> Do you need a diagram?


Here's a diagram Ace...


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

OK, Barry, I see Ace needs more _instruction_. Or something else perhaps ..... maybe there's an appropriate stick somewhere over by the mill. 

I tried, but this is getting tiresome. 

:ws:

It might be time to re-post some of those top 10 famous Ace quotes, like perhaps _holding down hives in a hurricane with a bucket of water_, or _logs from trees of the same species grown close to each other are identical_, or ......


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Daniel Y said:


> Do a little homework . . . . and you will find that 1X is cut from the lowest quality wood. even the best crap is still crap.


I guess I dont think of this wood as being crap.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

1X can be cut from anywhere in the log...it all depends on what the sawyer wants or need to fill an order. When sawing to grade the sawyer will usually pull off a few 1X4 or 1X6 from the exterior to see what they have to work with before beginning rotation or changing up thickness. But as Cleo points out, you obviously can not yield a 1X10 from those initial skim cuts.

Actually, the wood on the outside of the log is usually of the highest quality from the perspective of defect free, straight grain, least prone to cupping (with the exception of quartersawn). It commonly has a great deal of sapwood in it which can be considered defect for some applications such as color or rot resistance.

Ace is quite right (on this one), when sawing a log "through and through" without rotating, the 2-4 cuts closest to the center yield boards of quartersawn grain.....these logs have not been quartersawn which is a much more involved process that yields all of the lumber with that grain orientation but has a great deal of labor and high wastage.

Radar, the type of sawing you described is sawing to grade. It is most commonly performed on hardwoods (as you noted) and high value logs. It is slow in that the sawyer must constantly make decisions and choices to produce the most high quality(high value) material from any given log. I really doubt any mill filling commercial orders for 1X pine is sawing thier logs to grade. they are sawing through and through or cutting cants and ripping those down and then sorting the material by grade on the tailing end of the mill.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

windfall said:


> ... I really doubt any mill filling commercial orders for 1X pine is sawing thier logs to grade. they are sawing through and through or cutting cants and ripping those down and then sorting the material by grade on the tailing end of the mill.


I agree with you. But also someone sawing 1X pine as described is not interested in quartersawn wood.

Ace's original comment of:


Acebird said:


> The center of the log would be the same as quarter sawn.


 is still wrong, though, without the addition of _significant _qualifications or exceptions. His *later *post referred to cutting the middle board into two pieces. Once that is done, those smaller boards are not from the *center *of the log anymore, they are from one side of the center. Refer to the diagram posted by BC.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> Do you need a diagram?


Nope, BC already posted one. Look at it.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

learning lots in this thread arnt we

good post windfall


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

> His later post referred to cutting the middle board into two pieces.


 Requiring two cuts to eliminate the center. Resulting in three pieces.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Daniel Y.... Don't take this wrong, I am asking a serious question, because I do not know the answer. In order to get an 11 inch board, you would not be getting wood from the outside would you? Would you not have to get into the center of most of the logs to get a 1 X 11. What type boards or whatever do the mills typically cut the best wood into (2 x 10, 2 X 4 ). Enlighten me and I won't have to do the homework. HA!!!
> 
> The mill where I get my pine starts getting 1 X 3 on the outside, then as he goes in he gets 1 X 6, then he gets to where he can make 1 X 11. I always thought the absolute center of the log was the least quality.
> 
> cchoganjr


Keep in mind the mill is interested in making the most money form a log as possible. Large pieces of wood typically sell for more per board foot that smaller ones. less valuable wood (Quality) is used for the smaller and thinner pieces. !X is cut from the lose quality that will stil lmake a board. Keep in mind there is wood that cannot be used from a log and that is chipped and made into OSB if it is saved at all. 2X material woudl be next then the center is cut into things like beams if it is good enough. posts if not such as 4X4 or 4X 6 etc.

LArge sawmills are actualy ran on a computer and there are programs that will map out how to cut up any given log.

The result is that most 1X material is the outer parts of a log where the most warp prone cupping checking knot filled wood tends to be.

The center of a log is also known as heart wood. You can find 1X cut form heartwood but you have to look for it. and it will be pricey in comparison. You can also get things like quarter sawn which helps with the stability. A lot of furniture etc is made form quarter sawn wood. I paid over $300 for an 18 inch piece of quarter sawn 2X6 maple once. I considered that very expensive. But again it gives you an idea. how the log is cut up. where the wood comes form in the log etc. makes a big difference in the quality of the board. beekeepers simply are not going to be in the market for the higher quality pieces unless they are making an ornamental hive. There is a legitimate reason for the quality difference but it takes some investigation and some working with wood to really get the reasons clearly.

You can find better quality 1X if you are willing to hunt through piles of boards to find them. There is such a thing as select lumber. these are boards that where picked out as better than normal quality. the price goes up. and in my opinion not enough quality increase for the price increase. Buy enough boards and you will simply develop a sight and feel for better boards. I have seen some very nice boards being sold at Home Depot at bottom of the heap prices. It happens. But you can't rely on it.
So all things are possible but not necessarily consistent. 
Heck go to a saw mill buy an entire log and ask them to cut the entire thing into 1X material. you could probably sell off most of the outer lower quality stuff and get some of your money back and make your hives from the heart wood. It's not that they won't do it or it can't be done. It is more of a good business thing and what the typical final results are.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> Nope, BC already posted one. Look at it.


You look at it.
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...JSjJbpKL6v7mIKWq74J2y1ab7qLSIEY2aYTdKznTR5dlQ

Quarter sawn and rift sawn are not the same thing. Look at the two end pieced of the quarter sawn diagram. The rings could be up to 45 degrees. Only the center board is 90 exactly as it is with rift sawn and the single slab board cut from the center of a log.

Thank you very much.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

the center of the log is known as the pith.
heartwood is the non living potion of the tree that has ceased to carry sap. The tree often then stores etractives into that tissue changing its color and sometimes increasing it's rot resistance. Depending on species (and growth conditions) heartwood can begin anywhere from 1/4" below the cambium to 3-4" down....its all the wood that isn't sap wood

Mills cut to fill demand. There is tremendous demand for select and wide 1X material, it is often the primary target for cuts. Time is money and keeping sawn material flowing out of the yard rather than sitting in piles is paramount to all the mill owners I know. Yes a clear 8/4 10 inch board is worth more than 2 clear 4/4 10" boards (it takes a better log to yield the thicker clear stick) but you might wait a long time sitting on a pile of 8/4 10" boards while the 4/4 goes out the door by the unit. The obvious exception to this general rule is when an extremely high value log comes in...when you get into the really rare stuff it becomes worth sitting on the investment to get maximum return....not so much with "run of the mill"


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Lol , "run of the mill" just got the quote right from its context, love it!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> Only the center board is 90 exactly as it is with rift sawn and the single slab board cut from the center of a log.


Yep, now change your point to fit your new information. Center of log has nothing to do with quarter sawn. A quarter sawn board will comprise the full, or near full radius of a log. Slice it (hahaha) how ever you want, QS doesn't just come from the center.

Climbing back out of the hole.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Thanks Daniel Y.. That will keep me from doing the research. Little lazy in my older years. Thanks.

I think my situation is a little different from some of the posts here. All of the mills I do business with, except cypress, are run by Amish. Most of my pine comes from an Amish mill that has just the owner, no employees except for his 12 year old son. With these Amish mills I guess I get a little special attention. For the past few years, I have put several hives, each year, in their pumpkin patches for pollination. I don't charge anything, they give me tomatoes, peppers, sausage, anything they have, and I let them use my bees. I buy pine and give them honey. I normally have 30-50 single single chamber hives that I take through the winter for sale the next Spring, I use these, for their pollination. We are a rural community, where everybody helps each other. My poplar comes from a couple of Amish Mills that are little larger, but still less than a half dozen employees. Our Amish mills are mostly specialized in either pine, poplar, or oak. I get excellent wood, because they pick it for me. I suspect this would not happen, as easily, with large computerized mills with lots of employees. 

Thanks again.

cchoganjr


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

On the issue of heartwood. this is from a wiki on wood in general.

Heartwood and sapwood
A section of a Yew branch showing 27 annual growth rings, pale sapwood and dark heartwood, and pith (centre dark spot). The dark radial lines are small knots.

Heartwood (or duramen[7]) is wood that as a result of a naturally occurring chemical transformation has become more resistant to decay. Heartwood formation occurs spontaneously (it is a genetically programmed process). Once heartwood formation is complete, the heartwood is dead.[8] Some uncertainty still exists as to whether heartwood is truly dead, as it can still chemically react to decay organisms, but only once.[9]

Usually heartwood looks different; in that case it can be seen on a cross-section, usually following the growth rings in shape. Heartwood may (or may not) be much darker than living wood. It may (or may not) be sharply distinct from the sapwood. However, other processes, such as decay, can discolor wood, even in woody plants that do not form heartwood, with a similar color difference, which may lead to confusion.

The above had this photo as a reference the dark center wood is heartwood. The very small dark center dot is pith.








As you can see there is more than just a little reason for the heartwood to be a better quality wood.


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## BeekeepingIsGood (Aug 12, 2012)

Looks like this calculator might be useful for estimating shrinkage?

It would appear if you're cutting dried lumber the change in size would be fairly minimal.

I'm thinking of going with about 10mm between boxes on my dried cedar. At it's driest in my area I'm figuring it's doubtful it will drop below 6mm between boxes. I'm pretty sure the bees can still move through a 6mm space.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> I paid over $300 for an 18 inch piece of quarter sawn 2X6 maple once. I considered that very expensive.


At more than $200. a board foot for maple I would agree. That is very expensive!!!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Beekeeping.IsGood.ca said:


> Looks like this calculator might be useful for estimating shrinkage?


Excellent link. Just what the OP needed.


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## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

Buy 2 inch rough cut lumber direct from a mill and plane it down to 3/4". You get the better cut, and can select the grain more when you go to plane. Buy it oversize in width and edge it yourself to get an even better board.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

jdmidwest said:


> Buy 2 inch rough cut lumber direct from a mill and plane it down to 3/4".


This approach turns *60% *of the wood that you just paid good money for into _worthless _planer shavings! :no: A better alternative might be to find a mill that knows how to cut the product you want to buy.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

jdmidwest said:


> Buy 2 inch rough cut lumber direct from a mill and plane it down to 3/4".


Rader Sidetrack is right. If you need 3/4" boards you can start with 1" rough stock. Generally anyone that saws lumber will saw a variety of thicknesses and will be able to provide 1" boards.


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## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> This approach turns *60% *of the wood that you just paid good money for into _worthless _planer shavings! :no: A better alternative might be to find a mill that knows how to cut the product you want to buy.


Note I stated "rough cut" I would still have to plane since is approx 1 1/2" give or take. And the shavings go into the horse stall. But the rough cut is cheaper than dressed and finished lumber and is worth it if you own a planer. Sometimes 1" stock is too close to the 3/4" finished size to do much planing on.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

If you have to buy 8/4 rough to yield 3/4 dressed you really have to find a new mill to do business with!
A good mill will saw 4/4 to 1 1/16-1 1/8" when measuring the "fuzzies". exact 4/4 is acceptable. Anyone who tries to pass 7/8" off is home-spun milling or soon out of business around here.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I use all mediums but I like that my boxes are finished at 1 1/16 - 1 1/8 thick up here. That being said starting out at 2" rough cut is even extreme for 5/4 finish. The boards are only 20" long. You could start at 1" rough and end at 7/8 finish for such a short board.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

windfall said:


> If you have to buy 8/4 rough to yield 3/4 dressed you really have to find a new mill to do business with!



Yup!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Our mills around here must be better than others. (all are band saw mills). I have my cypress sawed at 7/8. It is 7/8 from end to end, (10 ft normally) and will easily finish 3/4 after one year strip drying. My pine and poplar is cut 1 inch, but only because that is the standard cut for these mills. I get good wood, because, they pick it for me as they cut.

I also cut to length, before planing, and in the case of boxes with box joints, I cut the box joints before planing. If you have any blowout on the back side of the dado cut, the planer will most often take it out. A minor blowout on the inside of the box doesn't really show, but, I like for it to be gone if it does happen.

cchoganjr

cchoganjr


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

With all the interest in the current Fresh Lumber thread, I realized that this other thread on green lumber, moisture content, and using that lumber for hive bodies deserved a bump and some more attention.


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## rmaxwell (Apr 23, 2014)

I was a woodworker before a beekeeper. The pith will often crack which doesn't produce the best quality boxes. Quartersawn is more stable so long as the pith isn't included.


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