# Honeybee Democracy



## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

I'm interested--I love reading and this book is on my reading wishlist. I don't own a copy yet. A reading group sounds like a great idea.


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## dmpower (Nov 7, 2010)

I got 2 copies for Christmas. I've read most of the book before they both disappeared. It seems the non beeks in my house love this book as well.
I'm also not a fast reader but the book was so interesting I read it pretty quickly. You'll enjoy the read.
I'll watch this thread for further discussion or instructions
Enjoy!


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

I read the Kindle version last winter when the snow was deep and was instermental in getting my bee club to purchase a copy for the club library. I strongly recommend Dr. Seeley's book(s). I would participate in the discussion group.

Steve


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## Scottyd (Apr 17, 2011)

Like bevy I don't have a copy yet but maybe I'll dl it on my iPad. Either way I'm interested in reading it as a group.


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## Benthic (May 1, 2011)

I too would be interested. I'd be reading the Kindle version of the book, but that shouldn't make much (if any) difference. 

Let us all know when you decide to get started. We could all read a chapter a week or something. 

Brian


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Is there a version you can buy for a standard computer?


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## Scottyd (Apr 17, 2011)

Acebird - through the barnes and nobles website they say the nook app is compatible with a bunch of devices which include PCs and Macs. I think that is the only way to get a digital copy!


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm in ! I have to get a copy of the book.
It looks like the book is a look at the collective brain of the hive.

Interesting stuff!


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## tandemrx (Dec 1, 2010)

It is an outstanding book . . . even non-beekeepers should enjoy it. Sometimes deeply scientific, but blended with enough beekeeping history, social behavior dilemmas, and real life drama to keep you reading (and learning). It is a great discussion on swarm behavior although it leaves you with questions yet to be answered. Well, written and the graphics are fascinating. One of the best books I have read in the past year (not sure it would entirely appeal to my book club, but it isn't so far out that it wouldn't appeal to the masses). It prompted me to buy his previous book "The Wisdom of the hive" (much more expensive and probably less intended for the masses), but have to finish up some other books before I get to that one.


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## dmpower (Nov 7, 2010)

For those of you thinking of downloading a copy check the reviews on amazon.com. There were several complaints about the downloadable version - typos, missing info etc. I think they, Amazon, reduced the price of the download but I'm not sure that they fixed the book. My information is from well before Christmas so you may want to double check.


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## msapostol (Sep 6, 2008)

I would be interested in a book club too. I want to read that book and maybe the club would be a good motivation for me to do so.


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

FYI,

If you do purchase the Kindle digital version it can be read either on the Kindle reader or on a PC and they each simultaneously up-date to the page that you last read on the other devise. Thus, you can read a book on the handheld Kindle (when you travel on vacation or business, or sit in the dentist's office) and continue reading from the same page on your PC when you are at home. Figures, illustrations, and graphs are almost impossible to read size wise on the hand-held devise but are readable on a larger PC screen. I would agree with dmpower's comment above about typos, etc. and I think that the book must have been scaned with a low end OCR program and the results never edited. Yes it is irritating and I'm sure it is not representative of Dr. Seeley's work. I believe that it represents Amazon's rush to beat the competition and to make a buck.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I downloaded the software and about to buy the kindle version book. Typos should be no problem for me because I can't spell anyway. The question is, is it readable?


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Acebird,

You can read the Kindle portrate or landscape and you can choose 7-8 font sizes. You can have upwards of 100 books in the memory so you can easily flip to a different book when you get tired of reading about bees. You can highlight and keep that passage in a separate file. It has a dictionary to help when you are stumped with a certain term such as "chill-torpor". The so called typos are easy to read through and are such as: "a swarm can take of to fly to its new home" and of course it should be "take off". That is why I think Amazon sort of cheated and used a low end optical character recognition (OCR) program to scan and capture the text into a digital format.

If you travel by air or have otherwise "dead time" I think you will enjoy the Kindle.

Steve


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## Risky Beesness (Dec 29, 2010)

If memory serves me, when I purchase it, it was only a couple dollars cheaper than the printed version. I love my Kindle but this really irks me. A sizeable portion of the cost of a book is in the printing, warehousing, and shipping. They are surely not passing down the cost savings of digital delivery to the consumer.

Loved the book, though.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Cost me $30.00. Hardcover.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

I just ordered a copy from Barnes&Noble online. I have a Kindle and love it but after reading the comments here I think I will go with hardcopy. Barnes has a coupon going on thru 7/25 and with their already discounted price, I paid $21.13 total for hard cover copy. Coupon code is T9P8A9P.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I bought the kindle version and read through the first chapter. It took me awhile to figure out how the software works but I think I got it licked.

Where are you getting these prices? It was 15.14 for the kindle version and maybe 18 and change for the book on Amazon. Maybe that is a paperback.

OK Mark, it is your post so you got to set up the schedule. You got me reading a book now...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I guess I paid $9.00 for the autograph.


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## Scottyd (Apr 17, 2011)

For all those that would like to download the kindle version but have seen the post above about the mistakes or the review on Amazon. If you clicked on the comments with that review (http://www.amazon.com/review/R27VQC...46A9M68&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=#wasThisHelpful) you would have read a message from the author Mr. Seeley

"Posted on Feb 4, 2011 7:40:03 PM PST
Thomas D. Seeley says:
I have checked with my editor at Princeton University Press to see if they had corrected the problems that existed in the original Kindle edition of my book, and she has told me that they redid the Kindle edition so now it looks much better than the original edition, which is what Sean O'Callaghan encountered. --Tom Seeley"

So fear not and order the digital version if that will better suit you!!!


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Bought the hard cover. Read it very quickly as I found it easy to read and really interesting. Very glad to have the book on my shelf, because I have returned to it many times as a reference.

I think it's a great book for anyone who really wants to know more about how bees choose a nest site and move from one place to another as a group.

Adam


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, not trying to jump ahead in any way, but, a friend of mine asked me, after I told him about some of Seeleys' research, "Can we make money off of it?". I guess he is saying something like, "Intersting research and acedemicwise, but how is it helpful to Commercial Beekeepers? Maybe there is an answer in Dr. Seeleys' book. Or, maybe I'll have to write him and ask.

Adam,
Seeley says, "Hi".


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Haha. Great, thanks Mark. Thanks for that. I wish I could have a long chat with him. But that would likely be a lot more of a benefit to me than to him! So his time is better spent elsewhere.

Whether or not Seeley's research can make one money would require the eye of a commercial beekeeper. So perhaps your book club idea might bring out some interesting ideas. It certainly might be helpful to anyone interested in catching swarms.

His new research on the effects of many hives grouped in apiaries, as opposed to the natural scattering of colonies might be more profitable to commercial beekeepers. Who knows? Seeley's goal is to understand the bees and to share the understanding. 

What comes out of that is anybody's guess.

Adam


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## dmpower (Nov 7, 2010)

Scottyd,
Thanks for the update! I was hoping my information was out of date on the Kindle version.

My book price was ~$20 delivered


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> So his time is better spent elsewhere.


Speaking of which, his time is booked into 2013. He has no time available to address our Fall 2011 or 2012 mtngs. Folks in Ireland have gotten him to fly there to speak. He is a man in demand. We were lucky to get him.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

One of my favorite beekeeping books -- Seeley does fantastic work! We offer it along side the rest of our beekeeping books at our store and our customers love it as well.

Best,
Matt


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

I'm in the middle of the book right now. Fascinating and very easy to read. Illustrations and photos are top notch. Dr. Seeley actually discusses practical applications of his research in the book, not necessarily for commercial benefit. I like the way he builds on the work of von Frisch and Lindauer and gives them much credit along the way. My copy is borrowed from our local library. I will probably purchase it as well. Don't forget about inter-library loan if the cost is too much for you.

Reading his book gives me the impression that Dr. Seeley would enjoy chatting about bees with anyone, scholar or not, because it is his passion as well as his occupation.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I finished the second chapter and learned why it is titled “Honeybee Democracy” which I thought was odd because I was one of those persons who thought the queen ruled the roost. In the second chapter he makes mention that the scouts look for a suitable hive prior to swarming. I knew this beforehand because I saw a program on PBS about honeybees that stated that. I believe it was the other forum that I was on got all upset that I made that statement. Secondly, right in the first paragraph of chapter 2 he speaks of how closely some bees are to wasps in appearance (bees evolving from wasps). 

I’m beginning to wonder if the PBS program was about this book because the way things are presented it seems very familiar to me. It very well could have been Dr. Seeley narrating the program.

I think I will go ahead and read chapter 3.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That's one of the things he mentioned in his lecture. "Notice I didn't say anything about the queen and her input into the decisionmaking process? The queen doesn't have anything to do w/ it."

The swarm will actually leave a caged queen behind and go to the new home. He sets his artificial swarms up w/ caged queens so they won't leave and actually set up a viable colony at a new location.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm in. I want to read this. It came highly recommended before I saw your post Mark but after reading all this and having a chance to be part of this group I'm taking the plunge so to speak. I'll order it after I send this message.  Cool Idea!!!

I ordered it and also Bad Beekeeping by Ron Miksha Looking forward to both
VirginiaWolf


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

Mark, do you want to facilitate the group? When do you think we could get started? My book is on it's way so personally I should be ready to start as soon as it gets here in a couple days. Will you start a new thread when we officially begin or continue on this thread? 
Beverly


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't know how facilitating would work. How many people have the book? How many have read the first chapter? Do we want to go chapter by chapter or discuss after reading the whole thing? I haven't started reasding yet myself.

Thoughts? 
Ideas?


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

I am in, just bought the kindle version.

I suggest a chapter a week or month.
perhaps a thread per chapter?


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## Benthic (May 1, 2011)

Agreed. A chapter a week. 

So, hypothetically, we all agree to start on Monday, August 1st. We read chapter one during that week. Then on August 8th, Mark (or whoever is the 'facilitator') starts a thread discussing chapter one. During that week (of the 8th) we discuss chapter one, while reading chapter two. Then on August 15th we move on to a new thread discussing chapter two, while reading chapter three, and so on, and so on.

Just an idea. We could also keep all the book discussion in one thread and we could move through the book faster, or slower. We could even make adjustments as we go along.

Brian


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

I'm either getting old or gay because it sounds interesting, count me in. 

Don


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What do you mean by "old"?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I think a chapter a week is great but I am going to read ahead. It will be a great review for me. I don't always grasp everyting on the first round.


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## Scottyd (Apr 17, 2011)

I suggest a chapter every 3-4 days on 4th-5th start convo about it for a few days. The chapters are from 13 to 25 pages +- here and there. If chapters were 50 pages I could justify a week. 

I read the prologue on my iPad through the nook app and there are mistakes still. At least spelling wise. I'm going to write or call the publisher. If you have the kindle version can you check if they are on there as well?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

In this day of texting does spelling matter? I didn't see any but there could be hundreds of spelling errors. It doesn't matter to me.


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## dmpower (Nov 7, 2010)

D Semple said:


> I'm either getting old or gay because it sounds interesting, count me in.
> 
> Don


too funny!


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## Scottyd (Apr 17, 2011)

In the sense of can I read it and understand the content with spelling errors sure. But I also like to get what I pay for and I paid for a professionally copied digital version of a book. I didn't pay the $20-30 for a hard cover but I think $16 is enough to get fewer mistakes. It's pretty bad that the 2nd sentence in the book has an error that could be fixed in a few seconds.

I commented on the mistakes because a previous post I made quoted Dr Seeley saying that errors should be fixed. People in post before that were discussing wanting to buy the digital copy but unsure because of a review pointing out errors.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Having read some already, I wish the print size was larger. I just got Michael Bushs' book too and it has older eye sensitivity sized print. Best part so far Michael. a weighty tome, for sure.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

I'm old or gay too 'cause I'm in. I'm already well into the book but I'll be happy to back up and participate. Is Dr. Seeley on beesource? Wouldn't it be great if he joined in? Might be starting something here. When we get done with this one I think we should do Beekeeping at Buckfast Abby by Brother Adam.


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## Benthic (May 1, 2011)

Acebird said:


> In this day of texting does spelling matter?
> <snip>


Yes, it does.

Brian


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm with Benthic. A chapter a week sounds good to me starting August 1st. We can discuss weekly. If we keep it all on this thread it would be kind of cool to start at the very beginning and see this idea unfold. I'm open to whatever Mark or the group decides though. I hope the book is delivered quickly


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What little consensus I can see here seems to say start the discussion Aug. 1st, w/ Chapter One. Read at your own pace. We'll go on to the next Chapter after almost everyone has read it. I'll ask if folks are ready to move on, every now and then. I think waiting until the next week could get long. There are more than 9 Chapters. and some have read the whole thing already.

Any other suggestions on how we should do this? If this gets off the ground w/ enuf interested parties, I could see a beesource Book Club Forum in our future.

Dr. Seeley isn't on beesource, as far as I know. I doubt he has the time. Besides, he is off line totally when he goes to the island for research purposes.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

You could start by reading this free paper:

http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/364/1518/755.full.pdf

'Independence and interdependence in collective decision making: an agent-based model of nest-site choice by honeybee swarms

Christian List1,*, Christian Elsholtz2 and Thomas D. Seeley3
1Department of Government, London School of Economics, London WC2A 2AE, UK
2Department of Mathematics, Royal Holloway, University of London, Egham, Surrey TW20 0EX, UK
3Department of Neurobiology and Behavior, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853, USA'.

Here's one with a few differing views:

http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/Entomology/courses/en507/papers_2011/ims.pdf

Cellphones and worker piping?

http://www.kokopelli.asso.fr/documentation/favre.pdf

Have fun.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Having read some already, I wish the print size was larger. I just got Michael Bushs' book too and it has older eye sensitivity sized print. Best part so far Michael. a weighty tome, for sure.


That is the beauty of digital, you decide the font size. That feature alone makes the digital copy worth more to me than the hard copy but I don't mind paying less. If you are lucky you will get old and at some point you may not be able to reread a hard copy book.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WLC said:


> You could start by reading this free paper:
> 
> http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/364/1518/755.full.pdf


Dr. Seeley's book doesn't bog you down with all the mathematical formulas. More suited for the average beek.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I wouldn't say that one of Seeley's papers is beyond the average beekeeper's comprehension. They can still read the abstract, introduction, and discussion/conclusion and get a look at the types of models Seeleey used to reach his conclusions.

The other papers are helpful because they provide a another perspective.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Papers are not written for the general public they are written for the academia. His book is written for the general public with a little bit of that academia thrown in. If people want to read the papers by all means but I didn't want others getting turn off thinking the book is written that way.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

However you all set up the discussion, I'm in. Copy ordered, will arrive next week. I'll catch up.

Spelling may not matter in tweets and emails and postings on forums. But it darn well matters in magazines and printed books. I've refused to hire employees who had misspellings and typos on their resumes, as we produce printed materials read by others.
Regards,
Steven


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> The other papers are helpful because they provide a another perspective.


All very nice and good. Thanks for bringing these papers to our attention. People will enjoy reading them I'm sure. Some anyway. But, the creation of this Thread was Dr. Seeleys' talk and his book "Honeybee Democracy", so let's stick w/ that for now. Okay? Thanks.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

That's not very democratic of you. 

What's interesting is that the term 'oligarchy' has been used to describe how the scouts steer the swarm towards the new nest.

Perhaps it should have been called, 'Honeybee Oligarchy' instead?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Why weren't you there? would you come to a meeting in Saratoga Springs or Albany?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Did you finish reading the book yet?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Has anyone else noticed that in Figure 1.5, both Karl von Frisch and Martin Lindauer are wearing lederhosen while posing in front of a volkswagen?

Seeley must have quite a sense of humor to have chosen that photo.

I looked up a few other images of von Frisch and there he is again wearing lederhosen.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JE5AuyChMv8/S4Qx35trJFI/AAAAAAAAAB0/tzLjCpVxfT4/s1600-h/frisch.jpg

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/30f6dd8c69ddcd32_large


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

I noticed but didn't think it was funny. German people wearing lederhosen sounds somewhat appropriate to me.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> Seeley must have quite sense of humor to have chosen that photo.


What are you getting at?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Spent a year in Bavaria in the 60s. Lederhosen very common.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

There are many other photos of Karl von Frisch (a Nobel laureate) and Martin Lindauer to choose from.

You know, in suits, head shots, etc. .

Why pick the one where they are both in lederhosen in front of (of all things), a volkswagen?


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## ealldredge (May 14, 2008)

Found this thread and then checked the libray, our county system had several copies, one of which I now have in my hands. I read the prologue and am quite interested in how the book turns out. I'll follow your book review thread(s) but don't think I'll go by your weekly chapter pace simply because I'll need to return the book. No matter, this should be interesting.... Good idea.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

WLC said:


> in front of (of all things), a volkswagen?


Around here old volkswagens are mostly now sheds and chicken coops. Maybe it's a big beehive.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> Why pick the one where they are both in lederhosen in front of (of all things), a volkswagen?


What's the problem?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Karl von Frisch deciphered the 'waggle dance' of the Honeybee (and won the Nobel).
His student, Martin Lindauer pioneered the study of 'honeybee democracy', or how scout bees perform waggle dances on swarms.

The choice of that particular photo, of two scientists who figured prominently in the subject of 'Honeybee Democracy' while wearing lederhosen and posing in front of a volkswagen, seems highly irreverent.

It's like writing a book about relativity, and the only photo of Einstein that you include is the one where he's sticking his tongue out!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> The choice of that particular photo, of two scientists who figured prominently in the subject of 'Honeybee Democracy' while wearing lederhosen and posing in front of a volkswagen, seems highly irreverent.


Act like I don't know what you mean by "irreverent", because I don't. Spell it out, please.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I read alot of books that you might find in the science/nature section. When a photo of a scientist mentioned in the text is provided, it's usually one of them looking 'dignified'.

This is the first time that I can recall ever seeing two scientists, that figure prominently in the text, shown together in a composition that I would characterize as 'campy'.

It is definitely a most unusual choice for a photo of a Nobel laureate and his student.

Am I the only one who noticed?

Has everyone had a chance to look at the photo (Fig. 1.5, p. 12)?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I noticed what they were wearing and that the car was a VW. But you seem to be the only one making a big deal over it and drawing conclusions about what the photo says about von Frisch and Lindauer. Or, maybe Seeley. I can't tell which or what. Maybe I am not as sensitive about certain things. Maybe the photo is one of Lindauers' favorite photos of him and von Frisch.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

The photo credit is: photo provided by Rosemarie Lindauer.

Here's a link with some examples of other photos of Lindauer.

http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/conducta/142_Lindauer_biografia.pdf


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Maybe Seeley didn't choose the photo at all. Maybe the Editor chose it. Maybe I'll ask. I have.

Now that you have made me think about this photo more than necassary, perhaps showing von Frisch and Lindauer in their natural state was intentional. Photos of them in suits and in other setting may be more available. Photos of them which portray them as normal people, comfortable in their environment say more about them then standard portraits. I would much rather see a photo of Dr. Morse or Dr. Dyce or Richard Taylor or Dr. Tew in the field or the creamed honey lab than I would the wall of portraits one finds at Dyce Lab at Cornell. That's my take.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

WLC said:


> Why pick the one where they are both in lederhosen in front of (of all things), a volkswagen?


Because that's the common car of his day. Because lederhosen is also common wear in Germany. Is this another "what is treatment free" thread?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I hope not. My intention was to discuss the content and focus of the book, not nit pick the graphics or grammer or ulterior motivation of the Author or Editor.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

This is very much about the content of the book. Lindauer and von Frisch pioneered the field of study that is the focus of Seeley's work. Read the last paragraph of chapter 1.

When we look at the photo of von Frisch and Lindauer, we're looking into the very heart of the book .

Who is/was Rosemarie Lindauer? Was she Martin Lindauer's wife, sister, or daughter?

We know from this above link to Lindauer's biography (w/ Seeley as an author, no less) that von Frisch was very demanding.

We can see Lindauer and some of the other students smiling as the photo of the 'strict professor' in lederhosen standing in front of the volkswagen is about to be taken. It's irreverence appears to be a source of amusement.

Most notably, only von Frisch and Lindauer are wearing lederhosen while the other three male students aren't. This speaks to the relationship between the professor and his assistant (and their students). You should also note Lindauer's body language.

You can learn alot from a photo. In fact, the graphics in the book are part of the content of the book and are a key part of the discussion.

For example, in Fig. 1.7, the author is standing in front of a swarm that has landed on what appears to be experimental apparatus. Why the feeder bottle on a cross bar?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I suspect to feed the bees and keep them happy while they sit face to face with them painting dots on their thorax. Can you imagine how boring that is? If you miss an observation of the returning scouts you can blow the whole experiment. My hat goes off to these dedicated people. One of the hardest things to do is stay focused when you are doing something that is boring. Try it sometime.

I don't think Dr. Seeley's intention of the book was to psychoanalyze the photos he included.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

'Can you imagine how boring that is? ...One of the hardest things to do is stay focused when you are doing something that is boring. Try it sometime.'

Yes I can, and yes I know what you mean. Try remaining focused when the air conditioning has been turned off (to save energy due to high demand) and it's 102 degrees F outside. This is while extracting DNA from dozens of bees.

'I don't think Dr. Seeley's intention of the book was to psychoanalyze the photos he included.'

He included the photos for a reason. It's not psychoanalysis, it's interpretation.

Seeley has written a great deal about Lindauer and his work. He's an expert on the great biologist.

I've noticed the most unusual choice for a photo, and I bet that there's a story behind it.

Just so you understand, there's a great body of work that stands behind 'Honeybee Democracy'. We're going to see alot of that sneaking into the book and demanding further exploration.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

WLC said:


> Most notably, only von Frisch and Lindauer are wearing lederhosen while the other three male students aren't. This speaks to the relationship between the professor and his assistant (and their students). You should also note Lindauer's body language.


You're reading way too much into things. We know you find it amusing. How many times do you plan on making an issue out of VW's and lederhosen? Again, let's stay on topic.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I still don't get it. Does "strict professor" imply something?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

cg3,

This is the above link to a biography of Lindauer by Seeley et al. :
http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/conducta/142_Lindauer_biografia.pdf

Barry:

Look at the 'body language' in the photo. I'd also wait for Mark to get some feedback from Seeley on the photo.

Perhaps you can tell me something about the apparatus in Fig. 1.7? Is it some kind of a 'swarm cross'?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

link broken.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Try it now.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

ealldredge said:


> I'll follow your book review thread(s) but don't think I'll go by your weekly chapter pace simply because I'll need to return the book.


Will they not let you renew it a few times? Our library lets us renew multiple times. You can get another copy and leap frog them.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

WLC said:


> For example, in Fig. 1.7, the author is standing in front of a swarm that has landed on what appears to be experimental apparatus. Why the feeder bottle on a cross bar?


When you read the book you will learn that the apparatus is a board with feeders used to mount an artificial swarm for the purposes of watching it. Dr. Seeley writes that he learned this process from Martin Lindauer. The bottles are used to keep the bees stomachs full as full honey stomachs stimulates the swarming instinct. He explains that some of his first attempts at creating artificial swarms were unsuccessful because the bees were not topped off. The bees will not swarm unless they are gorged and Dr. Seeley writes about that.

Without getting too far ahead of ourselves, it appears to me that you are looking through the pictures and not reading the narrative with them. The book is a composit of pictures and words that I believe are intended to be taken together. Nothing wrong with looking at the pics before reading the book. I do that. I do believe that looking at the pics, forming innaccurate conclusions, and sharing them is not what we're about in this thread.

Didn't the description of the lederhosen/volkswagen picture say something about them all being out on a field study? Nothing out of the ordinary for German people who are working out in the field to be wearing lederhosen or driving a domestic vehicle. The group doesn't even appear to be posed. I don't know what the story behind the photo might be but I'm not going to over-analyze it or try to construe more than what is there.

Let's just get on topic and start reading according to the schedule and discuss. I've already read far ahead in this book and think it's amazing. I intend to start over and follow along with the others in the thread. Let's enjoy.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

'Nothing wrong with looking at the pics before reading the book. I do that. I do believe that looking at the pics, forming innaccurate conclusions, and sharing them is not what we're about in this thread.'

I have read through the entire book, and I do have good reading comprehension. (How patronizing of you to write the above.)

However, I didn't read an actual description of the apparatus that was used to feed the artificial swarm. Is that it? A stake w/ a cross member and a feeder attached to it?

Is it used for studying artificial, natural, or both types of swarms?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WLC, I have a lot of respect for your intelligence but did you actually read the book or just some related papers? Your questions have me wondering.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I've read the book, cover to cover. I own the hardcover version, w/ color graphics (naturally).

I read alot of journal articles, regularly. I also keep current in my science readings every single day.

So, I easily read through 'Honeybee Democracy" in one day (in four or five sittings).

I found it to be a short read that tended to be highly repetitive and was padded even further w/ swarms serving as a metaphor for politics and neurophysiology.

The margins were wide, as was the spacing, and quite frankly, the author could have made it about 100 pages shorter by reformatting the text and removing the repetition and metaphors.

Otherwise, it was an interesting read.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Now I know you read it because I find it repetitious. This is my biggest negative about reading books. I fall asleep easily. There must be some quota about writing books. I am at chapter 7 and I will push on. I don't regret buying it but I hope you are not going to nit pic every photo because it will get old. Lets discuss what he is doing and why he is doing it and if what he has done is valid. The smooching he does for the old timers is nothing more than respect. I could do without that or less of it. They are gone now an as he says new ideas have to come from new people.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Acebird:

It's a good book. Sometimes it's good to be repetitious to make key concepts stick.

Have you noticed that in Fig. 1.7, the author appears to be serenely contemplating a swarm, looking, dare I say it, Christ like? (Of course, the two german scientists were shown wearing lederhosen in front of a volkswagen. What a contrast.)


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oh come on now, 1974, so he was going through school in the 60's or there after. He's academia, they are always 10 years behind the times in fashion. I'll bet he didn't even smoke pot or run naked across campus. Christ like, I don't think so. Where have you ever seen an image of Christ in a pair of glasses?

OK I get it you have this visual fixation. Get over it, there is more to the book then the photos.

You have a negative tone about the author. Did your paths cross at some point with a bad outcome or are you just stimulating the audience for a revealing conclusion?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Hey, I can't discuss the actual content until everyone else gets it together. So what else is left? You want me to discuss the problems people have getting the book into their hands?

As for a negative tone about the author...

...what negative tone? I just described him as serene and contemplative.

By the way, did you notice the other artificial swarm gizmo on the inside back sleeve of the jacket?

He looks alot balder (but he's wearing his hair the same way!), and the swarm gizmo looks like it has a backboard now.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Here is what Dr. Seeley has to say about the photo of von Frisch, Lindauer and students.

"Regarding the photo, of Martin Lindauer and Karl von Frisch, this is one of their favorite, for it shows them at the start of a day in the austria Alps, a day on which they are preforming a key experiment on the dance language of the bees.The clothes they are wearing are traditional field clothing for folks in Austria at the time (early 1950s). The photo was provided by Martin Lindauer's wife, knowing that he felt it showed especially nicely how he and von Frisch liked to work together." Thomas D. Seeley

As to the bees on the cross, this was something that Dr. Roger Morse, Cornell University, did to establish an artificial swarm. It is being recreated at EAS this week. I forget by who. It's on the EAS website. Maybe it is something they do every year in honor of Roger.

Me, I think that photos can be much like Ink Blot Images. What one sees in them may say as much about the person viewing them as what is portrayed there.

Tom Seeley appreciates our discussing his book, but he doesn't have time to particiupate and is often out of reach of internet connections.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Have enuf people read enuf of the book to start discussing its contents? Let's get started, since a number of people have already read the book cover to cover and others have read early parts.

What has interested you the most? What have you learned that you didn't know or thought was different? Or, what other comments would you like to share?

Let's try to be respectful of each other and the Author. Like Barry often says, "Use I statements."


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Do you want to discuss a particular section of the book at this point, Mark?

Adam


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Can we start w/ the beginning or close to it?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Queens have longer legs? That I didn't know or ever thought about.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

'Me, I think that photos can be much like Ink Blot Images. What one sees in them may say as much about the person viewing them as what is portrayed there.'

No they're not. Because we all know that if you don't say that the inkblot looks like something sexual, then you're nuts!

What about Seeley's comment that the queen is the royal ovipositer and not the royal decider?

Would you agree with that statement?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I haven't gotten to that aprt of the book yet. Just into the second chapter. But I recall hearing him say that in his talk. I believe he said more than that tho.

So, to answer your question, sure, why not? The queen's pheromones work their majic on the rest of the colony in a number of different ways, but the queen doesn't decide to forage on a particular source of food or decide that the colony should take up residence in a cavity she has never seen or investigated. That is decide by part of the colony, not the queen. The way I understand it.

And you? Would you agree w/ his statement?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

(Ch.1) On p.5 he starts the ball rolling on how the view of the queen as the royal decider (since Aristotle) has now changed to the view of the queen as the royal ovipositor because she basically just supresses the rearing of other queens.

He also goes on to say that the hive is governed collectively by the workers themselves.

'...the workers achieve an enviable harmony of labor without supervision.'

Looks like we're going down the rabbit hole.....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So, I guess you disagree? Or have a different interpritation?

Having reread the passage, I don't see anything wrong. Are you seeing sickles and hammers in between the lines perhaps?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm not saying that Honeybees call each other 'comrade'.

What he's saying is that most of us are in for a major paradigm shift when it comes to how hives are organized.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So what do you mean by "down the rabbit hole"? That he is straying into fantasie land?

Does this mean that "most of us" thought that the queen made all the decisions and controled every action the colony took? That isn't even true in Royal Human situations. Is it?

It seems like along w/ removable frames came the ability to observe the workings of a hive from the inside in a way not as easily done millenia ago. Didn't folks in Aristotle's time refer to Queen Bees as KIng Bees? Sexual misidentification. Mistake. Points of view and ideas change over time. I see nothing wrong w/ further change.

Not being arrogant or anything, but a colony of bees always seemed to me to be a superorganism. As Seeley describes. Each cell of the superorganism, each bee, acts in a similar fashion to the way different cells or groups of cells, ie organs, in our bodies work.

I guess one could look at the social structure of a colony of bees in other ways too. The Queen as CEO or CFO of a Corporation. The workers and drones preforming necassary duties. Some of the workers acting as Board of Directors w/ the power and authority to replace/superced the CEO.

Or in Religious terms the Queen is the Minister/Priest/Rabbi/Imam. The workers are the Trustees/Deacons/Church Council w/ power to effect employment. Other workers are committee members responsible for the day to day workings of the organization.

I'm sure there are all sorts of analogus comparisons which can be made. I appreciate Seeleys take. I imagine he originally got the idea from someone else and then further reinforced the idea thru observation.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Going down the rabbit hole means we're entering 'Wonderland'.

I think that it's safe to say that most folks would have thought that the queen 'ruled' her own colony.

However, I am familiar with some aspects of sociobiology (primarily through E.O. Wilson's work), and I am very much aware that Honeybee hives consist of different castes working together.

We know about the queen, drone, and worker castes. 

We also know that workers will change caste specific roles as they age: housekeeper, undertaker, nurse, attendant, fanning, comb building, guards, foragers, and scouts. Correct me if I got that wrong.

That is somewhat unusual in the insect world: insects changing roles in a colony as they mature.

It makes one wonder if we missed a caste or two that might be performing some important role, like secreting important chemical signals for example.

Also, I'm wondering if we missed some caste specific function of the drone.

So, while I'll accept the current 'wisdom of the hive', I would do so while keeping a watchful eye on some new work being done on chemical signalling in honeybees involving oderant binding proteins and chemosensory proteins.

We could be in for a few surprises.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

WLC said:


> Going down the rabbit hole means we're entering 'Wonderland'.


So WLC... if I read you correctly - you are saying that chemicals control the hive, even it they do not come from the queen. So the question is, what is the source of these chemicals.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> Also, I'm wondering if we missed some caste specific function of the drone.
> 
> We could be in for a few surprises.


That would be wonderful, wouldn't it?

I'm sure there is alot we may have missed. There is still alot to be known. I believe, though I can't site any paper or even a notion of where I got the idea, but, if one removed all of the adult drones and all of the drone comb from a hive, I think there would be some notice of this by the colony and the colony would do something to bring about stasis(?). Or, the statis quo. If that's the right way to look at it or express it.

In other words, I believe that drones serve somewhat more of a function beyond passing on genetic material. Though I don't know what that purpose is. We male humans have genetic material storage units which survive intact well beyond their necassary primary function or reason for existence. Maybe drones serve some of the same functions, even though the reproductive female of the colony doesn't need them.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

hpm:

We don't have a full grasp of the myriad of possible chemical signals that might be involved.

We don't even have a full grasp of other possible methods of communication in Honeybees.

I would say that the different castes of Honeybees are all contriburing different chemical (and other) signals to the colony.

I don't think that we are fully aware of all of them as of yet.

So, it becomes difficult to accurately model the "collective intelligence" of a Honeybee colony.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Being as "newborn" bees are not fully formed, internally, certain glands need further maturing to become functional, isn't it possible that as a bee ages and goes through different stages, different jobs, that their individual odor, maybe pheremone in nature, signals something as basic as everything is alright? 

The queen pheremone, passed from bee to bee throughout the colony, is something which suppresses workers ability to lay eggs. This, in a way, is a communication that things are as they should be and no heroic measures are needed. Can't we say?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Yes, surely. 

Seeley's description of the queen as the 'royal ovipositer' says that: 'The only dominion of the queen is the rearing of additional queens. She does this with a glandular secretion called "queen substance".'

He is saying that the queen plays a much smaller role in the "collective intelligence" of the hive than we may have thought.

But, the queen is obviously very important in maintaining the homeostasis or dynamic balance of the colony.

Your observation of what occurs afer drone comb is removed illustrates another mechanism by which the dynamic balance of a colony can be affected.

Dare I say, that altering the composition of any of the castes will affect the balance of the "collective intelligence" as well.

But, this book is mostly concerned with one very specific caste of Honeybee worker, the scout bee.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> But, this book is mostly concerned with one very specific caste of Honeybee worker, the scout bee.


Quite true. And more specifically older more experienced scout bees that report their findings. Which they do by dancing on the swarm.

It's sorta like these older scout bees are older experienced field agents working for the CIA. They locate a cavity, measure and evaluate it, return to the swarm and report on it. Other bees then do the same using info from the first reporters. Over time some locations get more reports than others, eventually ending in one location being the only one left, therefore "chosen".

It seems like when it comes to chosing a new home, these older bees act like the brains of the superorganism. Or, maybe one could look on the few bees which do the scouting and reporting as the Colony Housing Committee. Members of the committee self select/volunteer. And are responsible for submitting suggestions on potential sites and then they are tasked w/ chosing the best site amongst those reported on.

A small portion of the whole making a decision for the whole.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WLC said:


> I think that it's safe to say that most folks would have thought that the queen 'ruled' her own colony.


I thought so too but then how do you explain supersedure?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

WLC said:


> hpm:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I sometimes wonder if "Ontogeny recapitulates Phylogeny", fits into the equation somewhere.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Acebird said:


> I thought so too but then how do you explain supersedure?


Maybe there's a specific caste involved with that as well? How do you get bees to start making new queen cells? Beekeepers know how to do it, but how does a colony decide?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

hpm08161947 said:


> I sometimes wonder if "Ontogeny recapitulates Phylogeny", fits into the equation somewhere.


This will help others understand:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recapitulation_theory

I wonder if as the Honeybee worker goes through different castes in it's development, from at first houskeeping to finally (for the sake of argument) scout, if it is in fact retracing traits accumulated (perhaps sequentially) by it's evoulutionary ancestors.

It makes sense. However, would scouting make sense as the final trait needed to make them Honeybees?

Here's a link showing how DNA methylation figures into the 'ontogeny recapitulating phylogeny' argument in a way that seems unique to Apis mellifera relative to other social insects. In short, DNA methylation likely controls the Honeybee workers (besides the queen and drone) as they develop through different caste specific roles.

http://www.goodismanlab.biology.gat...A Methylation.Proc Natl Acad Sci USA.2009.pdf


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> And are responsible for submitting suggestions on potential sites and then they are tasked w/ chosing the best site amongst those reported on.
> 
> A small portion of the whole making a decision for the whole.


So far what I have read it looks like a group of bees (labeled scouts) that go out and look for potential home sites and then they come back to the swarm to win converts for what they have found. Those coming back have no idea what the others found. Enthusiasm of the dance means everything. However it is not good enough to just win converts because those converts have to come back with the same or greater enthusiasm to win more converts. If not, interest quickly falls by the wayside. I really don't see that as decision making. I see it as more of a popularity contest that works remarkably well for the bees as a whole. I have formed this opinion not based on the beginning of the book but more so on what is talked about in later chapters. Although I haven't finished so my opinion could change.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WLC said:


> but how does a colony decide?


I asked first. I am pretty sure it is not the queen.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I asked first. I am pretty sure it is not the queen.


Here is a hypothesis (crude but a first try).

Colonies that swarm generally seem to be fairly heavily populated. Therefore I would assume there would be less of the queens controlling pheromone per individual bee. Perhaps this diminished amount of pheromone per bee sets the ball in motion?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Hmmm. Well, since a 5 frame nuc box can swarm as well, maybe it's the crowding of the workers that sets it off? There's still plenty of queen substance per volume in a 5 fame nuc.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> how do you explain supersedure?


Happens in human Royalty, so why not animal Royalty?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

WLC said:


> Hmmm. Well, since a 5 frame nuc box can swarm as well, maybe it's the crowding of the workers that sets it off?


Good point. They certainly can and generally young queens in most nucs. So scratch that hypothesis. What could happen to a bee to trigger a swarm when he feels crowded. Or maybe it is the queen who feels crowded and somehow changes her pheromone.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

hpm:

In the next chapter, Seeley calls it, "an enduring mystery".


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

WLC said:


> In the next chapter, Seeley calls it, "an enduring mystery".


I just DLed the book from B&N since they had a NOOK version. So far I have read only the intro.. but I will get there.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Happens in human Royalty, so why not animal Royalty?


I don't know of too many instances in human royalty where there replacement was put in power before they die. I suppose it has happened.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Reading page 33 Colony Reproduction, I never considered the hermaphoditic aspects of a colony of bees, or an apple tree for that matter.

I like the way Seeley describes both entities.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Bees are communists, or at the very least, socialists. They do not get to vote.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That's one way to look at it. But, maybe it's more like the Politburo decidng for the Prolotariete. Maybe. Since actually a small number of bees, or percent of trhe swarm, actually makes the final descision.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

So what is another way of looking at it? Your comment is rather obtuse.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

How do you see it as obtuse, Tom? You say the bees are communists or socialists, and Mark says that's one way to look at it, and offers another way to look at it - based on a communist reference that gets closer to what Seeley is talking about in his book. It's "communist" in one sense but it's like the pulitburo or governing group of a communist nation, because a smaller group of bees (the scouts) actually make the decision for the greater good of the colony. Most of the bees simply sit and wait for all of this to happen.

Doesn't read obtuse from here.

Adam


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

On another Forum there was a question about the title and the differences between a Democracy and a Republic. Does a colony of bees make decisions in a republican way or a democratic way, by definition of those two words?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> because a smaller group of bees (the scouts) actually make the decision for the greater good of the colony. Most of the bees simply sit and wait for all of this to happen.
> 
> Adam


Which is also somewhat interesting since it seems as though the scouts who report are all volunteers, not elected representitives.

I wonder if there are other such systems in Nature? What about Ant Colonies or schools of fish or flocks of birds? How do herds of gazelles decide what they decide? Or prides of lions?


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Adam, first Mark says there is another way to look at it, then confirms and agrees with my comment.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

'Honeybee Democracy' is just the title. If you realize tht that title is derived from less than 5% of the workers (the scouts) reaching a decision for a new nest, then you can see why you might want to be cautious about applying political metaphors to bees.

I would say that thinking in terms of collective intelligence, and specific castes of Honeybees, would be a better fit.

I'm also not sure if there are other social insect models (like ants) that are a good fit for Honeybee colonies.

Honeybees are simply too unique in too many ways.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

WLC, I know and agree, I just like to play with words. But the political bias is obvious: No American author is going to label the colonys' behaviour as communistic or socialistic.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

WLC said:


> I'm also not sure if there are other social insect models (like ants) that are a good fit for Honeybee colonies.
> 
> Honeybees are simply too unique in too many ways.


I spent a little time yesterday consulting with an "Ant Guy" (Mark was there too... at least electronically) - and my impression was that ants and honeybees are very similar. Ants may be even more complex... certainly more diverse. I did not detect anything quite like this "Collective" decision making attribute though. That may well be unique.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Tom G. Laury said:


> No American author is going to label the colonys' behaviour as communistic or socialistic.


Democratic or Communistic... what gets me is how can such a tiny bundle of neurons have such complex behavior?
There must be some significant piece of neurological knowledge in the Honeybee brain waiting to be discovered.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

hpm08161947 said:


> I spent a little time yesterday consulting with an "Ant Guy" (Mark was there too... at least electronically) - and my impression was that ants and honeybees are very similar.


Well, they're all Hymenopterans. So, yes, in that respect they are.

However, there is some genetic evidence that the expression of caste specific genes through changes in DNA methylation is quite unique in the Honeybee. There's nothing else quite like it.

Frankly, I would characterize Honeybees, at least in terms of their genetics, as 'Formula 1'. They're in a category all their own.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

WLC said:


> Well, they're all Hymenopterans. So, yes, in that respect they are.
> 
> , .


The "Ant Guy", spent some time describing the Ants that he studies. He was particularly interested in the "Agricultural" skill of his ants. They maintain Fungi in their colonies that they feed till the fungi produce fruiting bodies, which they eat. Others that he studies maintain their own herds of "Mealy bugs" in order to milk the "Honey Dew" secretions which the Mealy Bugs secrete. Colonization seems to occur by virgin queens simply flying off taking a Mealy bug or piece of fungi with them. Nothing like the collective "swarm thinking" of the Honeybee. It the ant and the bee evolved from the Wasp, then this socialization is an incredible evolutionary stride.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> If you realize tht that title is derived from less than 5% of the workers (the scouts) reaching a decision for a new nest,


Which could be true of our brains too. Less than 5% of our brain comes up w/ a decision. Suppose that is true?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tom G. Laury said:


> WLC, I know and agree, I just like to play with words. But the political bias is obvious: No American author is going to label the colonys' behaviour as communistic or socialistic.


What about republican?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> What about republican?


No Republican bees in our hives... all Yellow Dog Democrats.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I knew that was going to happen. That's why I used the lower case "r". Maybe bees live in more of a republic than we do.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I knew that was going to happen. .


Ahh... I see. Republic as in we theoretically control our government. Mea culpa, too much partisonship lately.

At least with bees... it seems that a bunch of volunteers get together and make the decision. Everyone else just follows along. Come to think of it.. that is like us.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

WLC said:


> However, there is some genetic evidence that the expression of caste specific genes through changes in DNA methylation is quite unique in the Honeybee. There's nothing else quite like it.
> 
> .


WLC... I have read where you mention DNA methylation several times. What is it? What is it's significance? Do nucleotides get methylated (CH3) as they are activated? Something like that maybe.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, since we are talking about how a specific caste of Honeybee, scouts, make some very important decisions, and we know that workers perform many caste specific functions as they mature, from housekeeper to scout, it's helpful to keep it in mind. Especially when we are trying to differentiate between Honeybees and ants.

Methylation of certain bases (like CpGs) in a region of DNA that codes for a specific gene, or even part of a gene that can be spliced in different ways, can ultimately makes different proteins in a caste specific manner.

So, it's this difference in DNA methylation that appears to be controlling how Honeybees form their different castes (queen, drone, worker) from the same DNA.

I would also add that it's probably how the role of the worker Honeybee changes as it matures from houskeeper all the way through to scout.

I brought it up because it appears that the Honeybee develops these cast specific behaviors (via DNA methylation) in a way that is fundamentally different from other Hymenopterans (like ants).

So, yeah, Honeybees are very special in this regard.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

WLC.. so if you were given a sample of honeybee DNA, could you determine if it was from a Nurse bee.... Scout bee... Guard bee... etc?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Alot of the DNA methylation/Honeybee caste findings that I'm referring to are pretty new (a few years).

Firstly, you'd need the observational skills of a master beekeeper just to get the right samples.

Then, you'd need the kind of skills that you'd find in a first class genomics lab (I wouldn't need to look far).

So, the short answer is, not today.

Give it a few years, and I think that this field of Honeybee research will start to opening up.

I think that the work of sociobiologists will help to drive that kind of work as well.

For example, Seeley's "Honeybee Democracy" will help alot in getting other sociobiologists to ask the caste/EST(expressed RNA) question.

I'm surprised that Seeley hasn't already done this himself.

Getting back to your original question: once the groundwork has been laid down (we need to know the specific sequences involved), then the answer is yes. All I'd need are the right primers, my trusty RNeasy kit, reverse transcriptase, etc., etc. . (or you could take the DNA methylation route).

I have not seen any published work with the kind of information needed to take an unknown sample of Honeybee DNA and make a determination of it's caste, or it's age.

---------------------------------

However, it's probably easier to follow Honeybees from emergence, and each day (for about 40-50 days), snip off the antennae of a sample of Honeybees (of a known age) for RNA extractions.

You could then use primers from the following study to create a fingerprint based on age:

"Mapping the Expression of Soluble Olfactory Proteins in the Honeybee."
Francesca Romana Dani,†,# Immacolata Iovinella,‡,# Antonio Felicioli,§,# Alberto Niccolini,§
Maria Antonietta Calvello,‡ Maria Giovanna Carucci,‡ Huili Qiao,‡ Giuseppe Pieraccini,†
Stefano Turillazzi,† Gloriano Moneti,† and Paolo Pelosi*,‡

CISM, University of Firenze, Firenze, Italy, Department of Agricultural Chemistry and Biotechnologies,
University of Pisa, Pisa, Italy, and Department of Physiological Sciences, University of Pisa, Pisa, Italy
Journal of Proteome Research 2010, 9, 1822–1833

It could work.

But, this following quote gives you an idea of the size and scope of the task,

"Such complex chemical language requires an adequately
complex perception system. In fact, the genome of the honeybee
contains 170 functional genes encoding olfactory receptors,
sending their signals to the same number of glomeruli
in the antennal lobes."

'Mapping the Expression of Soluble Olfactory Proteins in the Honeybee.'
Journal of Proteome Research 2010, 9, 1822–1833.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, I coulda said that. But who did?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

The above reference.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WLC, are we discussing Honeybee Democracy or your future book?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I see what you mean.

I always like to see the connection between one field of science and another.

Maybe, one day soon, we can do what hpm suggested.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> The above reference.


You didn't attribute the quote to anyone, from what I can see. Or I would not have asked.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I fixed it.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

WLC said:


> I have read through the entire book, and I do have good reading comprehension. (How patronizing of you to write the above.)
> 
> However, I didn't read an actual description of the apparatus that was used to feed the artificial swarm. Is that it? A stake w/ a cross member and a feeder attached to it?
> 
> Is it used for studying artificial, natural, or both types of swarms?


Sorry if you're offended. The swarm mount is discussed in the book and it seemed as though you looked at the pic without reading the narrative. 

There are even pics of the board with bits of comb started on it. I don't see how it could be used for natural swarms. How could you get them to alight on it for starters? I believe that he said the board is for artificial swarms and that they are typically much smaller than a natural swarm with fewer scouts than a natural swarm. He described taking hives and a funnel for shaking swarms. I think he said he only took 4 hives to Appledoor which would make a smaller number of swarms than I would think they would need. I thought they would do research on a much larger scale.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

WLC said:


> What about Seeley's comment that the queen is the royal ovipositer and not the royal decider?


What I've garnered from the discussion in the book about the queen is that she's more like the slave of the hive. They take care of and feed her while she produces. The moment she starts failing they replace her with a new slave. 

The fact that the bees all work towards a collective goal does bear a little resemblance to pure communism. I don't think that relates well to humans because, to date, pure communism has not effectively been implemented and the attempts that have been pretty much forced on people have had less than desirable results. I see the bees as more like the Borg in Star Trek. They are a collective or superorganism and they are tied to eachother for survival. Indeed, whether they started like this or evolved like this, they are totally dependent on eachother for survival or honeybees as we know them are doomed. If the bees acted more like humans and argued, disagreed, and debated everything, they'd miss opportunity and perish. Something to ponder considering our very current and fractured political process in the US today.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The queen being the reproductive part of the colony/body, are your reproductive organs slaves to your body? Isn't a queen more like a simbiotic member of the whole?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

hpm:

I may have linked to this one before:

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/27/11206.full

But, the 'Full Text + SI (Combined PDF)' link will give you an idea of all of the nucleotide sequences one would have to sort through to figure out the age/caste-DNA methylation issue. Just scroll to the end to get an idea. Warning, it's over 100 pages.

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/27/11206.full.pdf+html?with-ds=yes

If anything, I hope that it helps to give you an idea of the current thinking on how Honeybees get their castes.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

WLC said:


> hpm:
> 
> 
> If anything, I hope that it helps to give you an idea of the current thinking on how Honeybees get their castes.


Ahh.. so methylated portions of a gene are turned off... and this is perhaps 80 percent of the gene.. correct? And the CpG that you refer to is a shorthand for a phosphate link between 2 nucleotides? Maybe I learned something.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

hpm:

When I first learned about DNA methylation, yes. If it's methylated (CpG or other), then it woyuld normally be turned off.

However, since we're dealing with Honeybees...

...I've read a paper that suggests that methylated genes in Honeybees may be turned on!

So, I would just stick to the generalization that DNA methylation affects gene expression.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

It's been a few days now.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Thread seems to have lost its waggle and interest has dwindled.

I finished the book and enjoyed most of it. I didn't care for all the repetition and I don't buy into the swarm thinking as a human or making choices anything like a human. He took a shot at Bush that in a way made me laugh because I see (in has been my experience) that what Bush did is exactly the way most Corporations (and governments) are run. He tried to infer that important decisions in his department could be done in the way the bees did it. I don't much buy that either. A supreme leader is a supreme leader. You either have one or you don't.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm 3 chapters in. I read the posts up until now. There's alot of information being conveyed by these scout bees and alot of communication going on after the scout bees explain which location they think the swarm should go next. I keep picturing the bees communicating like a crowd of people. Several of them agree on one idea several of them bring up another idea, several bring up 3rd and fourth options. Eventually they all agree to agree. I wonder if the decision is made just based on the facts like location size moisture level etc. or if they get loud with eachother and strength has anything to do with the decision. It will probably be explained in the upcoming chapters. It's real interesting.
I enjoyed reading how he started studying the found hives in trees and thought the entrances were low but then realized alot of hives were up high in the trees too. That must have been a big wow moment when he realized the hives he was studying were only ones that were lower toward the ground. 
I'm enjoying the book so far and reading the discussions so far on this thread.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>They maintain Fungi in their colonies that they feed till the fungi produce fruiting bodies, which they eat. 

Bees maintain a culture of fungi, yeast and bacteria that transform indigestible pollen into bee bread. That is, if we beekeepers don't kill off the fungus with essential oils and fumidil, and the bacteria with essential oils, organic acids and antibiotics...

People have been calling bee colonies a "republic" for thousands of years. I don't think you can support it being a "democracy". There is no "one bee one vote".

Many a human leader has set the stage for their successor. The ones who do have dynasties than endure for a long time. The ones who don't just have a temporary kingdom that end when they end.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael, could you give a location on that quote? I would like to read that section again.
Thanks.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

I think Mr. Bush was quoting a comment of mine. Quite a ways back, where I was describing some information that an old student of mine gave me about the Leaf Cutter Ants. He was trying to point out to me how complex ant societies could also be. He is a grad student studying tropical ants in Guiana... Don't believe he knows that bees also cultivate fungi.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>They maintain Fungi in their colonies that they feed till the fungi produce fruiting bodies, which they eat.

This was a quote about ants from an earlier post.

>Bees maintain a culture of fungi, yeast and bacteria that transform indigestible pollen into bee bread. That is, if we beekeepers don't kill off the fungus with essential oils and fumidil, and the bacteria with essential oils, organic acids and antibiotics...

This is how bee bread is made. The pollen is inoculated by the field bees when they first make the pellet and the process begins. Then between heat, humidity and more honey mixed in, the process is cultivated by the bees in the hive to make bee bread.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> >They maintain Fungi in their colonies that they feed till the fungi produce fruiting bodies, which they eat.


I studied leaf cutter ants for about a day or so in undergrad, as an introduction to the honeybee. The little I learned was fascinating. 

I always wondered if it was possible to keep leaf cutter ants and watch them, kinda like an ant farm or an observation hive. There was a larger one on an episode of Dirty Jobs that looked particularly interesting. I'm assuming legally it's impossible for the layman to keep them though. Anyone know?



Michael Bush said:


> Bees maintain a culture of fungi, yeast and bacteria that transform indigestible pollen into bee bread. That is, if we beekeepers don't kill off the fungus with essential oils and fumidil, and the bacteria with essential oils, organic acids and antibiotics...


So how is it that colonies that are fed essential oils, fumidil, antibiotics, or HBH don't die?

If honey bee colonies require a culture of yeast, bacteria, and fungi to break down the indigestible pollen, and you were to give them essential oils that destroys all the yeast, bacteria, and fungi, wouldn't they starve? In a matter of days or weeks? How do they manage to overcome?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

You might find "The Leafcutter Ants: Civilization By Instinct" by Bert Holldobler and Edward O. Wilson to be a good read.

They were able to keep Atta and Acromyrmex workers alive in the lab with tree sap alone.

I'm not sure if essential oils do, in fact, stop bee bread from being colonized by beneficial organisms.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Added to my "Wish List" WLC, thanks for the suggestion.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So how is it that colonies that are fed essential oils, fumidil, antibiotics, or HBH don't die?

A lot of them do. A lot more since the organic acids got popular, the fumidil started getting used more in the middle of the year and the essential oils (including thymol) started being used and Tylonsin (a broader spectrum and longer lived antibiotic) came into use. The use of all these coincide with the arrival of CCD.

>If honey bee colonies require a culture of yeast, bacteria, and fungi to break down the indigestible pollen, and you were to give them essential oils that destroys all the yeast, bacteria, and fungi, wouldn't they starve?

Adults don't require these things, but larvae do and I believe they are. I think CCD is the symptom of that occurring. Luckily most creatures, including bees, can tolerate a short term of malnutrition. I'm also pretty sure that a lot of resistance had built up when it was just TM that isn't here for all these other additives.

>In a matter of days or weeks? 

And TM was short lived. So now we have longer lived antibiotics and more of them.

>How do they manage to overcome? 

Nature seems to usually find a way despite our best efforts to destroy natural systems with unnatural things, but not always.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

A professor at NC A&T did a presentation on a study he did looking at the connection between malnutrition and CCD. It was very informative and detailed, but the end result was that there was no correlation. At least according to his study.

That's not to say essential oils, antibiotics, and the like aren't contributing to CCD, but I'm not sure they are the cause. I still understand where you are coming from though.

My question Mr. Bush, was actually more direct. If a colony needs yeast, microbes, bacteria, and fungi to survive, and you destroy all of them, they should die in a matter of days or weeks. If all essential oils destroys the above mentioned simple organisms, then EVERY colony that is fed essential oils should be dyeing. They aren't. I can feed several hives HBH and some (probably most) won't show any negative side effects. Why?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>My question Mr. Bush, was actually more direct. If a colony needs yeast, microbes, bacteria, and fungi to survive, and you destroy all of them

Luckily it's impossible to "destroy all of them". Unfortunately it's not impossible to totally disrupt the balance of them and wipe out large numbers of them.

> they should die in a matter of days or weeks.

Adult bees have no requirement for the protein from bee bread except to feed larvae. The nurse bees can "steal" fat and protein from their own bodies enough to get about one round of brood raised. Hopefully, although that shortens their lives, the microbes will rebound enough for the next round. Nothing in life is that black and white including this. Organic systems have checks and balances and ways to deal with temporary stress. This does not, however, mean that these stresses are not paid for eventually.

> If all essential oils destroys the above mentioned simple organisms, then EVERY colony that is fed essential oils should be dyeing. They aren't.

Simply not true. Essential oils will not kill ALL the microbes and it will not keep them from coming back eventually. However giving them all that extra stress will get paid for somewhere else. Meanwhile you don't know when the microbes come back if the balance of populations will not be totally disrupted for some time.

> I can feed several hives HBH and some (probably most) won't show any negative side effects. Why? 

Because natural systems can be pretty resilient in spite of what we do to them. However a lot of hives ARE collapsing.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I think you answered most of my (rather demanding) questions Mr. Bush. Thank you. It makes more sense now.

I was thinking of essential oils as if they were bleach, killing anything and everything they come into contact with. My assumption was my error. That and the fact that the essential oils wouldn't obviously come into contact with EVERY piece of pollen in the hive (natural or sub).


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>A professor at NC A&T did a presentation on a study he did looking at the connection between malnutrition and CCD. It was very informative and detailed, but the end result was that there was no correlation. At least according to his study.

I didn't see the study, but if he was basing his assessment of malnutrition on the availability of pollen in the hive and not its digestibility, he could be missing the point.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Perhaps. If I were to do my own dissertation, I know what I might do it on . . .


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## indios (Oct 16, 2007)

another thought provoking book is "bees" by rudolf Steiner, he predicted the dire state of the honeybee in 1923,


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## zippelk (Sep 1, 2010)

not sure if anyone has posted this yet...
www.cornell.edu/video/?VideoID=1178


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Great video. I rate it better than the book but I would lean towards a video over a book anyway. Thanks for the link.


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