# no honey in hive - totally confused!



## julesbeek (Jun 1, 2007)

I have 4 hives at home which I'm able to check on fairly regularly, and one hive at an apple orchard about 20 miles away which I don't check on as much due to distance (they are not on my way home, so it takes extra planning to get out there). This hive never built up very well this Spring, and the last time I checked two months ago, they hadn't even filled up one deep with honey or brood. They DID have brood, so I left them be. 

I just went out to check on them (our main honey flow, blackberries is nearly over now). I was just dumbfounded to find a small cluster of bees (maybe 2 lbs) and absolutely ZERO honey. Worse yet, there were a couple frames in the top box (they are all in the lower deep) that had some uncapped brood with their heads sticking out and tongues out. Not a lot, but at least a few dozen where the cappings had been chewed off and the bees didn't make it out. I seem to recall this is indicative of something, but don't remember what.

Is it possible for a hive to swarm repeatedly and take ALL the honey with them? There are quite a few frames with pollen and bee bread in them, but no honey. Some of the frames are chewed out as well, not just no honey, but the wax was chewed down. Were they robbed? I'm so confused, I've never seen anything like this. The bees were gentle, though I didn't see any brood (but to be fair, I only was able to pry apart the outside frames and I didn't get a look at the 3 frames the bees were clustered around - once I realized there was no honey, I closed up the hive to do some research). The bees have glued everything together solidly with propolis, which from what I've read, usually indicates a HEALTHY hive. Not so much for this one! It took quite a bit of effort just to look at the first 5 frames or so.

I'm just trying to figure out if it's safe to bring this hive back to my beeyard since they will obviously need to be fed if they're going to make it at all (of course, then I'll check to make sure they have a queen, or else it'll all be a waste of time and energy).

Anyone seen anything like this? I did see one bee that looked like she had a k wing, but the others all looked normal. These bees were from a package from 06, and they've never done a booming hive. I'm wondering if it might also be the location. They're in an apple orchard, but it's smack next to timber lands owned by a company that is reknowned for clearcutting, then spraying herbicides so they can mono-plant more trees. And I mean RIGHT next to it. 

I'd love any advice folks might have on this conundrum.

Julesbeek


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## ian m davison (Jan 21, 2007)

Hi Jules

What you have described sounds very much like a hive in the last stages of collapse from Varroa.

What have you been treating with?

Get a treatment on fast and cosolidate the hive to a single or nuc box fast. Get a feed on and use a treatment such as Apigaurd or Apistan that will give quick results if you wish to save them.

I am only going by your discription but I have seen this quite a few times.

Regards Ian


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## julesbeek (Jun 1, 2007)

*no treatments here...*

Hi Ian,
I am a bit confused, because I see no huge piles o' bees in my hive or in front of it, and I had that the one time my hive collapsed from varroa.

As for treatments? I use NONE. I do biological beekeeping and will not use Apistan. Period. I will consider powdered sugar, and I've been using small cell (and these bees are well regressed!).

I'd appreciate if you (or someone) could tell me what the tell-tale signs are for varroa, because this didn't look like it to me (but then again, I've only had one hive in the 7 years I've been doing small cell actually die out from varroa).

thanks,
julia


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I'd almost say they were robbed out, and the bees need to be placed into a smaller space that they can control, something with a very small entrance(nuc box). Powder sugar treatment would also be a good idea. Also add in a few frames of bees and capped brood via the newspaper combine metheod, and also check to see that you have a vaiable queen, I would proably replace her regardless of what she looks like simiply because she has been unable to build the hive up to the strenght needed to defend it's self. Futher, I would also look for AFB before you do anything else. I would not move this hive anywhere until all the above has been done, and it is certain that you are not placing the rest of your hives in danger due to an unknown condition within this hive.


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## ian m davison (Jan 21, 2007)

Hi all

It's very unusual to find piles of dead bees with Varroa. It normaly brings on other viruses or problems that cause the final collapse, and the unlucky victim dwindles away with similar results that you describe. K Wing, Deformed wings, are normaly just some of the early signs of high levels in the hive.

If you don't like chemicals you could try some of the Thymol based treatments and I was under the impression that Api Gaurd has been recently approved in the U.S.

As in the above post if you do sugar them or use a treatment try and monitor any drop so you have info for future reference.

Good luck 
Regards Ian


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## julesbeek (Jun 1, 2007)

Thanks Pegjam and Ian - I do believe the hive was robbed out based on how the comb around the pollen looks. I only saw one bee with k-wing, all the others looked normal (though, of course, I didn't look at EVERY SINGLE BEE.  I will leave the hive where it is (I had thought about bringing it home), apply powdered sugar and see if I can reduce them further (I did reduce them to a single deep). I was also planning on giving them a top feeder, because they have no stores, and I'm afraid they will starve. Re-queening is a good idea too, since the other poor queen couldn't keep up. I'm quite disappointed, because as I mentioned, this hive had regressed to small cell size, so I thought they would be fine re: varroa. This is the first hive I've lost to this in my 7 years, so it's a bummer. But this is how we learn.

thanks again,
julesbeek


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'd almost say they were robbed out

That's my first guess as to the honey. As far as the hive dwindling, I'd look deeper for the cause. Many things can knock down the population including DWV from varroa, absconding, swarming, insecticides, queenlessness, etc.

Once the population is low then they are stressed trying to guard the hive from robbers, ants, wax moths etc.


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## ian m davison (Jan 21, 2007)

Hi all

As Michael said above the robbing is normaly the end result and not the start of the problem, a strong hive with a normal entrance size is capable of looking after itself.

Before you go to the trouble or expense of a new Queen you need to solve/find the cause of the problems. Do your sugar shake and if there is a large mite drop treat with thymol as it will save repeated journeys. Then get your new Queen.

Good luck
Regards Ian


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

Here is a picture of DWV. This girl was on top of the frames and then after the picture was taken she was removed from the hive by other workers.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j110/mydarlingheathens/Flower and Probs/P6030007.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j110/mydarlingheathens/Flower and Probs/P6030008.jpg


This was from a nuc that I bought that had trouble building up. They are now going like gangbusters. I saw a total of three bees like this. The rest of the hive looks healthy and strong and are working well.


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

*dmv*

any idea why this bee is so dark? all they all dark in this hive? thanks


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Hello Julesbeek,

Did you check if the apple orchard is sprayed??

Joe


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The most likely scenario is that they got hit by pesticides from the orchard, which weakened them and then they got robbed out. But it's hard to say for sure what happened.

One bee with "K" wing is normal. A lot of them is probably a tracheal mite problem. "K" wing has nothing to do with Varroa.

Deformed (crumpled looking) wings are usually from DWV from Varroa. A lot of them would indicate a serious Varroa problem.

A hive that fails to thrive can be from a lot of things including a combination of a lot of things. A poor queen, a failed queen that has since been replaced but they haven't recovered yet, a severe infestation of some pest (like Varroa), getting hit with pesticides, swarming, absconding, skunks etc.


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## ooptec (Jul 16, 2007)

*bee type*

I'd guess they are Carniolan .......

good guess??

cheers

peter


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Probably the best assessment for Varroa is a 24 hour natural drop count, but uncapping some capped drones can be pretty revealing or doing a sugar shake.


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## julesbeek (Jun 1, 2007)

*followup to honey-less hive*

Thanks for all the advice (and photos!). I do not have the type of problem seen in the photos sent (at ALL). I went back last weekend and checked the hive and they seemed a lot better, saw no bees with deformities and they had two frames of capped brood. I dusted them thoroughly with powdered sugar and gave them a top feeder of sugar syrup, and will go out again later this week and check on them (and put in an entrance reducer). I agree that I need to find out WHY they were robbed and plan on dealing with that. These bees are by far the smallest of any I have (fully regressed), so hope to get them through the winter. We'll see if I need to re-queen, but there was something definitely up.

Thanks again...

julesbeek


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