# Using Langstroth Frames in TBH (horizontal)



## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

I am going to do some 4-5 foot medium horizontal hives this spring. My plan is to make use of some of the medium Langstroth frames I have and foundationless except for a 1-1/2 inch starter strip. What exactly is the disadvantage of using of using frames as opposed to just top bars? It seems that the Keynan TBH keepers do not do this just because of the sideboard angle. Why are they built this way and why not just use horizontal or Tanzanian style hives? I realize the Kenyan hives purport to be more "natural" but why and are they really more advantageous? Thanks for the comments.


----------



## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

Bill
Advantages of using frames in a horizontal hive are many: no comb collapse, frames are easier to work with, you an flip them around during inspection, and 99% of bee books and bee keepers can give advice about frames. However you asked about disadvantages. The biggest one I can think of is cost. A brand new frames averages about a dollar, so with your four or five foot horizontal hive you will have around 40 frames or so? I run three foot top bars, they hold 27 bars, made from scrap lumber, my buddy has a table saw, so basically I only have a time cost of making the top bars. Also frames will eventually come apart and have to be replaced, this is very rare with top bars. 
Using the Keynan style hive has a couple of advantages, one is less comb attachment to the side. I know some folks say there is no difference, but I think there is. The other is with the sloping sides the comb weighs less which equals less comb collapse.


----------



## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

I run deep black plastic frames as well wooden frames with plastic foundation in my Long Langs, as Matt said there are many advantages over simple TBs. We deal with hot summers and extremely cold winters and I've never had a frame come apart that I assembled with glue and brads.


----------



## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Matt and Zack, thanks for your comments. I already have plenty of medium frames and I can make my own from scraps (from my many other projects that didn't quite make it). At 73 I am tired of wrestling with individual boxes so I am just going to convert everything to horizontal. Thanks.


----------



## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

I started with Langstroth hives, with a bad back, they became heavy. Then I built Kenya hives, could not get the honey and leave the comb for the next year. Now I build long boxes and use lang frames, that I build, an use 30lb fishing line to hold new comb. You can put a rag over the part that you are not working with. I still use all my hives..


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

As far as I understand it. The Kenya Top Bar hive was developed to answer specific concerns to keeping bees in certain regions. not so much a better method of beekeeping overall. but a better method of beekeeping where conditions where poor enough for it to be a better method of beekeeping. I cannot speak specifically concerning the other types of Top Bar hives since I do not recall any comments specific to them. The Kenya Top bar Hive facilitates producing hives out of a dump to put it bluntly. many objects that where never intended to house bees can be adapted to that use. That it then qualifies it to be some better overall method of keeping bees. including claims that it is more natural are foundationless. That the method has the added advantage of being suitable to ceratain individuals with limitations or preference for avoiding heavy lifting is true as well. it does not make it a beer method of beekeeping. It makes it a less labor intensive method of beekeeping. it also requires far more care and attention.

If you are going to go so far as to adapt the Top bar hive to straight sides and frames. You are simply progressing the top bar concept toward the more complicated and equipment dependent nature of the langstroth.

The idea behind the Top Bar is that it is versatile. so why not.


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

With a long hive you get all the benefits of both top bar and lang. The drawback is that you have to buy frames, they can be quite large, and take more time and effort than a standard langstroth. I have nearly a dozen of them and they have served me well. Specifically they are very good for comb honey, and making nucs. Mine build up very quickly if managed properly. Most of mine are 32 to 40 frame deeps, and they can build up a scary amount of bees in no time. And yes, use a piece of burlap as a cloth over the part you are not working when it is opened, or you will face all of the bees in the hive. I have my roofs divided into sections, so I only have to open a section at a time. I also have them sized to fit a standard langstroth box, so I can super the long hive for extra room. My bees seem to love them. They are my nucleus factories, for the most part.

One of my long hives is on it's 4th season with no signs of slowing down. I usually break them up with they drop off. 

FYI - I also run foundationless frames.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What exactly is the disadvantage of using of using frames as opposed to just top bars?

IMO, none. You could make the case that they go around the ends or the bottom better without the frame, but then they can go over the top with a frame and they can't with top bars that have no gaps...

> It seems that the Keynan TBH keepers do not do this just because of the sideboard angle. Why are they built this way and why not just use horizontal or Tanzanian style hives?

There is a prevailing belief (an erroneous one in my experience) that they will attach the comb less if there is an angle.

> I realize the Kenyan hives purport to be more "natural" but why and are they really more advantageous?

It's a bit easier to lift a comb out as it gets more room as you lift. The comb has a bit better support than a TTBH because there is a longer attachment at the top for the total amount of comb attached. It's easier to build a hive when you don't have to make a frame rest rabbet and if you want to put frames in the hive, you need those. My KTBH have the bars resting on top of the sides.


----------



## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Thanks to everyone for your comments. It really helps.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Bill, if you do make a long hive you may not want to make it quite that long. If you do you may want to make it so you can put in more that a single hive. I don't think a single hive would use the entire area assuming deep frames. Plus your cover would be 5 foot long and probably be pretty heavy.


----------



## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Shannon,
Good points. I have now been thinking that I would use medium frames with the hive being between 38-40" long. I am thinking about a series of 3 small covers (migratory?) that could be lifted individually. The end boards of the hive body would be slightly higher than the side boards and the end covers would butt up to them. I wish I could draw -too late now - I'll just build it and design it as I go. I wonder why I always end up with so much scrap wood-hmmm! 
I appreciate your thoughts and if you have any others please let me know.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Migratory style covers would work well. I hadn't used them but last spring I went in with my cousin and we purchased another beeks hives. About half the covers were migratory. I had never used them before, but they worked rather well. 

You could also go with sectional inner covers and an outer cover to cover the whole thing. My preference is what ever the easiest is to remove when inspecting!


----------



## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Hello: Below is a link to a photo of my long hive I built before Xmas. It is as long as 3-10 frame bodies side by side. I put a rabbet around all four sides of the body so that when I build the inner covers they sit down inside with their frame resting on the ends of the comb frames. That way I can remove any of the three inner covers to super, it leaves bee space on top of the frames, lets you only open part of the hive while working it and I just need a flat outer cover like a piece of corrugated fiberglass panel or such.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rfkx1tj9t5y4sf9/P1140087.JPG

Here is a link to a video that starts out with how to make rabbets on a table saw. 
http://youtu.be/yfyGF947Rd4

Hope this helps.
Colino


----------



## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Thanks. Keep warm if you can.


----------



## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Colino,
The hive looks great. Your idea of the rebate all the way around should work I may have to steal it. 
Thanks for the tips.


----------



## Colino (May 28, 2013)

billabell said:


> Thanks. Keep warm if you can.


Tough to do here is a link to our local weather. -28C (-18.4 F)tonight with wind chill down to -40c (where Celsius and Fahrenheit are the same) So cold our dog had to kick start a Jack Rabbit today so he could chase it!
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/weather/canada/alberta/whitla


----------



## Colino (May 28, 2013)

billabell said:


> Colino,
> The hive looks great. Your idea of the rebate all the way around should work I may have to steal it.
> Thanks for the tips.


I like to share, because I borrow lots of other peoples ideas.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Nice. What kind of stand will you put that on Colino? Or will be just be on some Cinder blocks on the ground?


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Bill
Horizontal beehive is quite common in Europe, particularly, in Ukraine and Russia. They used tall frames, which are taller than deep-size. So called "Ukrainian beehive" have frames taller than wideness. They used double-walled (with insulation between) simple box with cushion and lid on the top. 

I think that medium-size frame in one layer is too short for good bee-nest. Bees need space above the nest for the honey storage. I think that deep-size frame is a minimal for horizontal beehive; number of frames - 25-30. I build my own horizontal beehive, which accommodates top bars and regular deep-size frames. I made it 20 frames long and it is not enough. Other than that, bees are happy with horizontal design. Couple of things regarding long hive:
- I am foundationless
- bees love it!
- inspection is really easy and bees are much calmer than in vertical hive
- horizontal hives are less productive in comparison to the same volume vertical hive
- if you cut off the bottom horizontal bar in the frame - you could use "truncated" frame with deep-size box (foundationless)
- my design permits to use the mix of the top bars and frames
- I could add supers when necessary

Good luck with your project! Sergey


----------



## Colino (May 28, 2013)

shannonswyatt said:


> Nice. What kind of stand will you put that on Colino? Or will be just be on some Cinder blocks on the ground?


I'm not sure yet, but I'm leaning towards putting it on a 4x4 post anchored in the ground with 2x6 cross pieces bolted on the post that form a "T" on each end of the hive so it's easier to mow under.


----------



## Colino (May 28, 2013)

cerezha said:


> Bill
> Horizontal beehive is quite common in Europe, particularly, in Ukraine and Russia. They used tall frames, which are taller than deep-size. So called "Ukrainian beehive" have frames taller than wideness. They used double-walled (with insulation between) simple box with cushion and lid on the top.
> 
> I think that medium-size frame in one layer is too short for good bee-nest. Bees need space above the nest for the honey storage. I think that deep-size frame is a minimal for horizontal beehive; number of frames - 25-30. I build my own horizontal beehive, which accommodates top bars and regular deep-size frames. I made it 20 frames long and it is not enough. Other than that, bees are happy with horizontal design. Couple of things regarding long hive:
> ...


Thank you for the encouragement Sergey, and all my frames are foundation less, in fact I just came in from making a bunch tonight in my shop.


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Colino said:


> Thank you for the encouragement Sergey, and all my frames are foundation less, in fact I just came in from making a bunch tonight in my shop.


There is my thread regarding foundationless approach with pictures:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ess-honey-in-Santa-Monica-July-16-2012/page3&

With time, I reduced the frame to the top bar in most of my hives. It works great to me in the medium-size boxes. For deep-size (horizontal hive) - heavy honeycomb may collapse in hot weather. Thus, I added sides to my top bars, which sort of compromised my initial idea - to have universal top bars to all my beehives.


----------



## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

cerezha said:


> Bill
> I think that medium-size frame in one layer is too short for good bee-nest. Bees need space above the nest for the honey storage. I think that deep-size frame is a minimal for horizontal beehive; number of frames - 25-30. I build my own horizontal beehive, which accommodates top bars and regular deep-size frames. I made it 20 frames long and it is not enough. Other than that, bees are happy with horizontal design. Couple of things regarding long hive:
> 
> Good luck with your project! Sergey


Sergey,
Thanks for the ideas and well wishes. I do not think I will have a problem with the medium frames in my area. I read Lazutin's "Keeping Bees With a Smile" - very interesting ideas but a little overkill for my area of the country. 
Your the hive in your pictures looks great-do you have more than one?
I am also foundationless and my design will let me put a super above if needed.
Bill


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Hi Bill
I am in the city - we limited by two hives on the property. I have two vertical, one horizontal and a nuc. I wish to have more  I am completely foundationless and treatment-free. With such small amount of beehives, it is quite challenging to keep non-treated bees, but it worked for us (me and bees) so far. Sergey


----------

