# Bananas over Honey Bees



## mac (May 1, 2005)

How long have ya had bees?? How many hives do ya have??


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How long have you owned Stock in Chaquita?


----------



## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I had to get some overripe bananas to build my yellow jacket trap. hmmm 

Bees didn't touch their bee patty, it's now a little brick.. 

His stats say member since 2006, I think I will observe the situation.


----------



## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Bees eat pollen (or protein that looks like pollen to them) and nectar, which is basically flavored water and sucrose solution. Bananas contain very large amounts of starch, which is not a food item to bees. In fact, they find it very hard or impossible to digest.

Other than the alarm pheremone (amyl acetate) present, bees will most likely totally ignore bananas. Of you want to feed, them, feed them what they use as food -- sucrose in water.

If your protein patty dried out and the bees ignored it, likely the had plenty of pollen -- they will use pollen over protein patties.

Peter


----------



## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

The % protein is very low in bananas!
2g/225 g serving


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

mac said:


> How long have ya had bees?? How many hives do ya have??





sqkcrk said:


> How long have you owned Stock in Chaquita?


More into the topic. Do yaw agree or dissagree with my post needs more study, inspite of my Honey Bee Kungfu being strong and what products I may push?


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

psfred said:


> Bananas contain very large amounts of starch, which is not a food item to bees. In fact, they find it very hard or impossible to digest.


I have heard that about corn starch but not banana starch. I'd like to see the study on that. Corn as everyone should know who has observed the lavatory doesn't digest.


----------



## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

randy ray im sure you could find someone willing to take your money and do a study on that!
my common sense tells me that if bannanas were good bee food someone would have accidently found that out 50 years ago.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

BEES4U said:


> The % protein is very low in bananas!
> 2g/225 g serving


Is that protein percentage too low for bees? If it is honey blended into the banana could adjust that.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

hipbee said:


> randy ray im sure you could find someone willing to take your money and do a study on that!
> my common sense tells me that if bannanas were good bee food someone would have accidently found that out 50 years ago.


I don't need to pay anyone to experiment and study on my own. As far as a new discovery in a 50 year span my common sense tells me there is a lot of discoveries that may have been over looked. It's actually not my brainchild to take the credit. I heard of it in a chat room stating it is used to combat chalk brood. So in a sense it is already a discovery.


----------



## buhbee (Oct 17, 2010)

Randy Ray said:


> inspite of my Honey Bee Kungfu being strong


lol... What is Honey Bee Kungfu ?


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

buhbee said:


> What is Honey Bee Kungfu ?


It's just a statement to show some people, that just because you don't own as many bee colonies as some here online, has got to be as dumb as a bag of hammers, when it comes to bees. In other words to rank me the instructor, student or hammer. In short a good grasp on honey bee keeping by experience only should be heard.


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

Randy Ray said:


> . Do yaw agree or dissagree with my post needs more study,


 Yes your post needs more study. And along those lines keep feeding your bees bananas and let us know the results


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

Randy Ray said:


> It's just a statement to show some people, that just because you don't own as many bee colonies as some here online, has got to be as dumb as a bag of hammers, when it comes to bees. In other words to rank me the instructor, student or hammer. In short a good grasp on honey bee keeping by experience only should be heard.


 It's a great statement, but what does it mean?????


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

mac said:


> It's a great statement, but what does it mean?????


Beekeeping competition.


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

Randy Ray said:


> Beekeeping competition.


Is it beekeeping competition or is it ego competition when talking about bees? How’s the banana research going??


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

My first experiment was blending bananas and apples together with a little sugar water which proved messy and it dried out to the extent they stopped eating it much. If I do a blend again I will leave out the the sugar and water. These natural ingredients are consumed by bees naturally. One caution is the apple and banana should be peeled to prevent any insecticide contamination.


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

Interesting idea.What got ya started in that direction???


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

mac said:


> Interesting idea.What got ya started in that direction???


Perhaps having a liver transplant and not trusting corporations to do the right thing to our food made me observe natural alternatives.


----------



## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Quote : Beside the odor of bananas, mimic the sting pheromone, 

To the best of my knowledge, it only "mimics" it to us, not the bees. 
Just humor: 
Bee keepers would have to put warning signs up around their apiary, pictures of a banana with a circle and a slash through it.  "Warning, Banana Free Zone". Can you imagine the news reports, " An unsuspecting citizen strolling down the sidewalk, was swarmed and stung multiple times by Angry Honey Bees, simply because he peeled a Banana." 
A Beekeeper was fined $500.00 for failing to erect signs warning his neighbors not to eat bananas out of doors. 
Sorry, I couldn't resist.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

Beside the odour of bananas, mimic the sting pheromone, 
I should have said, Beside the "Fear" that the fragrance of bananas, mimic the their sting pheromone to the point of attacking, I would think it would be a great emergency food for them, so let me edit it here. lol


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

A quote from a drunk author says: Contempt prior to investigation leaves one in everlasting ignorance. So now I'm not ignorant to the banana feeding and I don't condemn it.


----------



## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Glad you have a sense of humor (Wasn't directed at anyone anyway)
Gota watch it, this is a tough bunch sometimes My fav is the one "I keep a bee dairy,,,,,should have been diary.
Experimenting is how we learn. Part of the fun. I tried/experimented with EOs. I learned it did just did not work for me. Must work for some because there are lots discussing it. 
Go for it.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

Rick 1456 said:


> Rick Fisher
> "I'm not a smart man, but I know that" Forest Gump


I like your signature it's almost sarcastic. LOL


----------



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Get yourself a small vial of lemongrass oil and put a few drops in a quarter cup of honey and a cup of water. Put it in the blender to emulsify the oil into the honey and water and use that to make your pollen patties or mix with them. The bees will like them. When someone convinced ole dummy me to put banana on the top bar to treat chalk brood, they hopefuly got a good laugh but I got twentysome stings on the back of the hand placing the banana. People who tell you to use banana on bees are not neccessarily your friend!


Gypsi said:


> I had to get some overripe bananas to build my yellow jacket trap. hmmm
> 
> Bees didn't touch their bee patty, it's now a little brick..
> 
> His stats say member since 2006, I think I will observe the situation.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

Vance G said:


> People who tell you to use banana on bees are not neccessarily your friend!


I didn't post this thread to do harm to folks. I posted it to inform that my experience with feeding my bees bananas didn't have the results you have had. Granted my strain of bees may be calmer than yours meaning the queen doesn't emit the sting pheromone at the drop of a hat. I also have bees that would sting me many times even if I am in the yard near them without bananas. It's just that queens strain. Unless bananas turn honey bees into killer bees I see no need to fear feeding them cheaply to make or keep them healthier.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Randy Ray said:


> I'm sure this topic won't be popular for the bee food supplement makers


But perhaps the banana growers federation could lend their muscle! :shhhh:

Seriously though, why are you feeding the bees? To get them through the winter? To promote spring buildup? Adult bees consume very little pollen for their own use, If you are wanting to get a hive through winter, they need honey, or as close a substitute to that as possible, ie sugar syrup. 
If you are wanting to assist brood development, they need honey or sugar syrup, plus pollen. The pollen provides all the vitamins, minerals, and PROTEIN, among other things they need, that are not in honey in sufficient quantity. I'm pretty sure a banana diet would leave them protein starved.

When you feed your hive bananas, and you see them "eating" it, what is happening to the banana? Could it be getting removed from the hive with the garbage?


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> why are you feeding the bees? To get them through the winter? To promote spring buildup? When you feed your hive bananas, and you see them "eating" it, what is happening to the banana? Could it be getting removed from the hive with the garbage?


 The only colonies I have which mac is owed that answer, is four nucleus hives in which I had started at mid summer. So yes buildup going into winter is imperative. I'd rather not feed any at all on the advice of Michael Bush's website reading. What I see and I had time to notice being not attacked, was honeybees licking the banana not chewing. Maybe after a while they do as they would a grease patty I guess, but it is eaten all up and with a queen laying in plain sight shows increase is on the colonies consensus.


----------



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Randy Ray said:


> . Maybe after a while they do as they would a grease patty I guess, but it is eaten all up and with a queen laying in plain sight shows increase is on the colonies consensus.


Seeing a queen laying an egg in "plain sight" is not an indicator that the banana is stimulating her....colony buildup is her single focus, that's what she does....you just happened to catch a glimpse of her at work... Open enough hives and you will see queens at work and laying eggs while you watch...no banana necessary. 

I would not suggest further banana studies in October to determine whether bananas will get them through the winter....at this point colony inspections are in order to determine what they have for winter stores...then a good dose of 2:1 syrup to make up the difference. 

If they make it through winter a "banana study" could be conducted starting earlier next year....but I think several other posters have answered the question as to whether or not banana's are a viable alternative food source for bees...they need honey or syrup to make it through the cold months....


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Randy Ray said:


> is four nucleus hives in which I had started at mid summer. So yes buildup going into winter is imperative.


OK well if they are all roughly similar, feed 2 of them bananas, and 2 not. See how it goes. Give them all plenty of syrup though, they'll be needing that.


----------



## Naymond Rae (Sep 21, 2011)

mac said:


> It's a great statement, but what does it mean?????


It means that even though he doesn't have several hives and such, he and those close to him have researched until blue in the brain and have gained a great deal of knowledge between two brains with one directive.. Hehehh just kidding.. it just means he has learned and is willing to learn as much as possible about beekeeping border lining an obsession. Also is willing to experiment and think outside the box and beyond concrete operational learning.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> Give them all plenty of syrup though, they'll be needing that.


 Yes I feed syrup of equal portions of sugar and water from sealed baggies over the top bars.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Naymond Rae said:


> Also is willing to experiment and think outside the box and beyond concrete operational learning.


There are at least two kinds of learning. One, is stuff we figure out ourselves, ie personal experience. The other, is inter generational learning, ie taking on board what has been learned by those who went before.

There is a third catagory, that I see increasing amounts of, that I would not call learning, it's more likely a substitute for learning. It's when people come up with wild ideas and then support them no matter what. They will sometimes call this "thinking outside the box", but it's the wrong kind of thinking outside the box.

Now I'm not including you in this Randy Ray, because although I don't think the banana thing will work (the composition of the banana is wrong), you have at least, been quite reasonable in your presentation of the idea.

It will be interesting to get some follow up from you with any results.


----------



## Naymond Rae (Sep 21, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> TThere is a third catagory, that I see increasing amounts of, that I would not call learning, it's more likely a substitute for learning. It's when people come up with wild ideas and then support them no matter what. They will sometimes call this "thinking outside the box", but it's the wrong kind of thinking outside the box.


Oh yea i agree with you as far as the third kind. I have heard plenty of that type "Outside the box" thinking waaay too much, but it's usually trying to compare apples to a funnel web spider (just a metaphor) but I have had people try to tell me such things as a broken back can be fixed with more exercise... Now that type thinking I agree is not thinking outside the box. The safe "outside the box" thinking is the one where even though one is comparing apples and oranges they DO realize that they are at least fruits.

As you said earlier though it is a good idea to test it thoroughly with a control group and in a situation where inspections can be performed on a regular basis. The only way that i can see that happening through the winter is with an indoors observation hive.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

Who thinks bananas are poisonous to bees and not at all beneficial and why? I'd like to repeat my experiment of blended apples and bananas without the sugar and water mixed in, to keep it eatable and see if it is even a better supplement of natural nutrition.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

With you Naymond Rae.

Actually the good thing about this thread is it's one of those kind that will sometimes turn into a slanging match, but instead the whole thing has been done in good humor and is an entertaining read.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Why would one want to have a source of artificial alarm pheromone inside of their hives? And, just because Alarm Pheromone smells like Bananas to us, do Bananas smell like alarm pheromone to bees?


----------



## Naymond Rae (Sep 21, 2011)

Randy Ray said:


> Who thinks bananas are poisonous to bees and not at all beneficial and why? I'd like to repeat my experiment of blended apples and bananas without the sugar and water mixed in, to keep it eatable and see if it is even a better supplement of natural nutrition.


Most fruit in it self while ripening will produce a syrup of sorts, I personally don't think it's poisonous to bee's if it was then the ones that get into old ripe fruit on the ground. I read somewhere that in those instances the solids would cause the trots for a time. I have also read that limiting the Honey Bee's nutrition (only allowing them to pollenate and drink from Mono crops) causes issue's too. But then again I am a little bias...


----------



## Naymond Rae (Sep 21, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Why would one want to have a source of artificial alarm pheromone inside of their hives? And, just because Alarm Pheromone smells like Bananas to us, do Bananas smell like alarm pheromone to bees?


I can personally say that it does rough their feathers, but I also SAW them eating at it.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Randy Ray said:


> Do yaw agree or dissagree with my post needs more study.


I certainly do think that if you want to put some effort into the study of the benefits of bananas in beehives and are willing to do so in a serious/professional manner, I would love to see the results.

Otherwise, it just seems kinda hairbrained. No disrespect meant. However your study comes out, if it isn't economically feasible to feed bananas to bees, which I doubt that it is, then there won't be much point of doing so.

Good luck and get back to us w/ the Data.


----------



## Naymond Rae (Sep 21, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> With you Naymond Rae.
> 
> Actually the good thing about this thread is it's one of those kind that will sometimes turn into a slanging match, but instead the whole thing has been done in good humor and is an entertaining read.


Wouldn't be an interesting discussion without some good old fashioned ribbing. But to quote the cop on the exorcist "If someone hadn't said 'what's this fungi?' then we wouldn't have penicillin".. I am sure that when he came up and said "Hey eat this and lets see what happen's" they ribbed him too.. well at least until it worked... hahahaha..


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Randy Ray said:


> it is used to combat chalk brood. So in a sense it is already a discovery.


I have heard that too. But, I don't know that it actually works. Are there Doctorate Papers on this?

It also doesn't mean that the bees consume it. Maybe the gases given off by the peal are what helps w/ the chalkbrood.

What I have heard is that Banana PEAL, not the banana itself, is thrown into the hive.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Randy Ray said:


> These natural ingredients are consumed by bees naturally.


Wha?!! When have you ever seen a Honeybee eat an apple or a banana?

Guys, I'm smelling another Pigeon. Remember our Motto.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

I look for doctorate papers against feeding bananas first for obvious reasons and find none being adverse to the health of the bees. Aside the pheromone mimicking there is none, perhaps another chapter can be written into the beekeeping journals in favor. The only harm is that ones ego maybe crushed for not seeing it before being a benefit all the while simple to do.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Randy Ray said:


> meaning the queen doesn't emit the sting pheromone at the drop of a hat.


Uh, Ace, excuse me, I mean, Randy, Queens don't emit Alarm Pheromone. The workers do. From their Nasanov scent gland.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> have you ever seen a Honeybee eat an apple or a banana?


I saw them eat it the day I put it on the top bars.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Naymond Rae said:


> but I also SAW them eating at it.


Did you see them digest it too? Maybe they were just trying to remove forgien matter from their hive.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Naymond Rae said:


> "If someone hadn't said 'what's this fungi?' then we wouldn't have penicillin".. I am sure that when he came up and said "Hey eat this and lets see what happen's" they ribbed him too..


Scientists who use themselves for guinea pigs don't live as long as the average nonScientist. Do you know what killed Madame Currie? It wasn't bananas.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Uh, Ace, excuse me, I mean, Randy, Queens don't emit Alarm Pheromone. The workers do. From their Nasanov scent gland.


Ha Ha, the same thought ran through my mind. And yes, a few of us might be feeling a bit "Aced" lately! 

But I see Randy joined in 2006. His style is also less confrontational.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Uh, Ace, excuse me, I mean, Randy


 No you meant to disparage me to express your professor belief in yourself, show me the proof queens don't emit the alarm pheromone.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Randy Ray said:


> The only harm is that ones ego maybe crushed for not seeing it before being a benefit all the while simple to do.


I can stand some ego crushing. Can you? I call for it all the time. I often say, "I could be wrong about that."

If your hypothosis has any proven validity or benefit I will be the first to say, here on beesource, that I was wrong to be so skeptical. You remind me, if it happens.

But, like so many bold ideas and statements I have a dollar which says that this isn't really going anywhere. That no real honest to goodness verifiable experimentation, anything like what would come out of a Research Institute, will be done.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you? That isn't Karma. You don't know what Karma is, if that is what you really believe.


----------



## Naymond Rae (Sep 21, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I have heard that too. But, I don't know that it actually works. Are there Doctorate Papers on this?
> 
> It also doesn't mean that the bees consume it. Maybe the gases given off by the peal are what helps w/ the chalkbrood.
> 
> What I have heard is that Banana PEAL, not the banana itself, is thrown into the hive.


here is one

and another.


----------



## Naymond Rae (Sep 21, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Wha?!! When have you ever seen a Honeybee eat an apple or a banana?
> 
> Guys, I'm smelling another Pigeon. Remember our Motto.


Actually at my old house we use to have an apple tree and there were plenty of ripe apples on the ground. Among the yellow jackets there were honey bees as well. Of course the apples were VERY ripe and breaking down.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Naymond Rae said:


> The Author of the first paper found only anecdotal evidence of effects and attributed those to possibly being the fruit itself and not its consumption.


----------



## Naymond Rae (Sep 21, 2011)

Hahaha I think that the topic is muddled a a little. I don't think he is telling everyone this is a miracle cure or anything. It was more of an "this is IHMO, this is why I think it, and what do you guys think". It's kinda up there with one person feeding their Bee's dry sugar as an alternative to syrup to prevent drowning. But again I think this is something HE is trying now and wants to get a group opinion as to if it would be dangerous to the Bee's or if anyone has seen something bad happen while using a fruit to winterize.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

Post readers, 
If you were to see a bee with its tongue on a banana, would you believe the bees extract nutrients from it or just getting rid of that trashy old banana.


----------



## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

I'm not sure but, it seems to me that anything you place in a hive they are going to remove it. If it's a pollen, grease, or a banana patty who knows if they are eating it or throwing it out? The reason why I say this is because anytime I have done a paper combine the paper disappears overnight. I'm sure they aren't eating it. It's amazing how quickly they can move something they can tear apart.


----------



## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

This post has gone Bananas!:banana:


----------



## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Randy,
I tried to post this earlier but it got lost in cyberspace. Most have already made this point. The level of expertise on this forum commands due respect. No one is asking anyone to be an expert. Far from it. It only asks that one acknowledge "I don't know for sure" and a humbleness/respect to those that have been in the trenches ........more so than you and me. That is where I am with regard to this forum. Just my opinion, your ideas would be more well received if: you demonstrated a better knowledge of bee biology. No one has to prove/show data, that the queen does not have anything to do with defense response. She will not sting you if you pick her up. There's a horse that, along with many things, does not need to beat again. It's a standard. 
Do your thing with your ideas. A lot are interested. What works for you, may not work for me. I have experimented and learned. You do not have to follow anyones path but your own. Acknowledge advice, even pessimism. Always leave the back door open for, "just didn't work, thanks for the imput, and I'm glad I could share," Or "This is what worked for me, what do you think.? Seems to me, you are digging your heals in. 
Go for it.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Uh, Ace, excuse me, I mean, Randy, Queens don't emit Alarm Pheromone. The workers do. From their Nasanov scent gland.


I like how I am part of a thread and I haven't posted yet...

Randy, a well respected beekeeper made the statement to throw a banana under the cover to get rid of chalk brood and I repeated that on this forum. Like you I place one on the inner cover in February last year to see what would happen and also to see how aggressive the bees would get. There was no aggression at all but mind you this was winter on a warm day. About the only reaction I could tell is it gave them the trouts. However, that could have been just the normal cleansing flights that they do after a long cold stretch being cooped up. It was nothing scientific. Would I do it again sure I would and now that I have two hives I just might try it again this winter. I did not see any negative reaction to doing it and my hive was a close call on stores last winter. Many local beeks lost theirs last winter.

FYI It was a frozen banana thawed and squirted on the cover, no peal. The bees consumed or removed better than 3/4 of the banana before it dried on the inner cover.


----------



## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

removed


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Would someone w/ more computer skills than I find an info source on Queen Honeybee Physiology, so I can see whether Queen Honeybees even have Nasanov Scent Glands. I'm away from home, or I would go to my Library Shelf and look it up myself.

Thanks.

I looked at both studies supplied by another Poster on this Thread, and not reading every single word, what I did read said that the Relationship between Banana Peal and Chalkbrood is ANECDOTAL, which means, the way I uderstand that word, of no proven repeatable experimental proof. Like a Folk Remedy.

I like verifiable facts, not wishful thinking.

Either way, this is all a bunch of fun and I am going to go buy some Chaquita Stock because Beekeepers are going to drive up the price of bananas.

And since bananas givbe bees "trouts", this Thread really is fishy.


----------



## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Hey Mark,
Jmo, but, even if she had a nasanov gland, doesn't mean she knows how or has the instinct to use it. She has a stinger/ovipositor, does not have the instinct to sting as a defensive response for the hive. Not unique to her, laying workers can lay eggs.


----------



## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

removed


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rick 1456 said:


> Hey Mark,
> Jmo, but, even if she had a nasanov gland, doesn't mean she knows how or has the instinct to use it.


True. But, the statement by our OPer was that she did and did. I would like some definitive knowledge on this. I have never seen one on a queen. Maybe I just have not been as observent.

Pne rerason I mention things like this is it goes to credibility of a Thread Poster when statements are made that such and such is so, when it might not be. It makes whatever else is stated suspect.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rick 1456 said:


> It is not inconceivable that the fruit might evolve one or more volatile compounds that are inhibitory to the
> spore germination or mycelial growth of the causal fungus A. apis. Such fungistatic or fungitoxic
> volatiles might be the normal products of fruit metabolism or the products of microbial degradation
> of the fruit as it senesces.
> (Palmer, 1971).


Which is what I wrote in early Posts here. W/out siting sources, of course.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

All I can say is, what a waste of vitamins and minerals, the bees of your point of view, treat as trashy. There is a solution that can answer this and that is place the banana on the running board and see if a bee will eat on it. Then get back to me with more of your insults.


----------



## Naymond Rae (Sep 21, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> True. But, the statement by our OPer was that she did and did. I would like some definitive knowledge on this. I have never seen one on a queen. Maybe I just have not been as observent.
> 
> Pne rerason I mention things like this is it goes to credibility of a Thread Poster when statements are made that such and such is so, when it might not be. It makes whatever else is stated suspect.


What my dad was saying is that the Queen controls the temperament of the hive. Not that she puts out the alarm pheromone. While genetics does play a role in the temperament of the hive the queen also has a play in it. 

Perfect example (and yes this trial is going on as we speak) a calm tempered queen is fostered with feral bee's that for lack of a better word will light a person up pretty quickly. As time passes the workers become calmer. The temperament of the queen has a lot of influence over the hive. Of course as time moves and her own brood emerges then the strength of genetics kick in and as the original feral bee's die off of course the ill temperament wears down, but like most sociable creatures they also defy nature and "learn" so it is possible that future brood may learn some tactics and protection from the feral bee's.

If the queen has this gland or not is irrelevant when talking about temperament or the initial need to guard. At least that is what I gather from my research of Bee biology. Now one thing that does come up all the time "Works for others and not for me" as well as many different opinions that almost as varied and bad as people who straight razor shave arguing over what the best soap is. Much has to do with what the hive has experienced and programmed in. Like all creatures of the earth they adapt to their environment as long as it doesn't kill them off they adapt. Bee's aren't any different. Now I am sure that you won't get them to eat a porterhouse steak but if it is similar to what they eat naturally then I am sure they will eat it. Just like Bee's wouldn't normally eat crystals, but yet there are some who feed dry sugar through the winter... 

Just a thought....


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Randy Ray said:


> There is a solution that can answer this and that is place the banana on the running board and see if a bee will eat on it. Then get back to me with more of your insults.


I wouldn't waste a banana doing so. I'd rather eat it myself. You must be quite well off in todays economy to utilize/waste bananas in this manner.

I have no interest in doing so. This is often the response of those who propose such ideas. They want others to try them out. Like I said before, no credible experimentation will be done.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Naymond Rae said:


> Not that she puts out the alarm pheromone.
> 
> Perfect example (and yes this trial is going on as we speak) a calm tempered queen is fostered with feral bee's that for lack of a better word will light a person up pretty quickly. As time passes the workers become calmer. The temperament of the queen has a lot of influence over the hive. Of course as time moves and her own brood emerges then the strength of genetics kick in and as the original feral bee's die off of course the ill temperament wears down, but like most sociable creatures they also defy nature and "learn" so it is possible that future brood may learn some tactics and protection from the feral bee's.
> 
> ...


Then why didn't he say so? Because, he didn't.

Are you writing about requeening a colony collected from the wild w/ a purchased queen of known origin? Otherwise, where do these "feral" bees of which you write come from?

So you seem to think that bees can be trained like a dog or horse?

They don't eat crystals, they change them into a liquid so they can consume them.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Naymond Rae said:


> ... the Queen controls the temperament of the hive. Not that she puts out the alarm pheromone. While genetics does play a role in the temperament of the hive the queen also has a play in it.


Please tell us what you know about hive temperment, its origin and what controls or influences it. Thank you.


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

Back in the 60’s the rumor was ya could get high smoking banana peals. We tried. We felt stupid.


----------



## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

glad to see I didn't miss much


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

One season I re-queened a hot hive, and before any of her brood had time to hatch out, the hive calmed down considerably. Although I didn't go look up why this happened, I used logic to come to a conclusion that if the opposite were to happen, and a mild hive were re-queened with hot a queen, the hive would turn hot before her brood hatched too. Yaw know what logic is, don't you? I am by no means trying to mislead anyone, however when I observe bee behavior and begin to grasp their nature it places an image of the truth and speculation on my mind. The queen controls the colony with pheromones what ever smell or whatever gland she emits its, I never stated she had or didn't have a Nasanov gland. That was the consensus of the professors of this post arguing the point, puffed how be it. Unless she has a vocal alarm or a wink of an eye, her pheromone controls the hive. So if I appear unlearned please understand it's because, I learn by experience also; in spite of studies. So when someone tells me what I have seen never can happened, I question their maturity.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

Randy Ray said:


> So when someone tells me what I have seen never can happened, I question their maturity.


That goes for my forum signature too!


----------



## Naymond Rae (Sep 21, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Then why didn't he say so? Because, he didn't.
> 
> Are you writing about requeening a colony collected from the wild w/ a purchased queen of known origin? Otherwise, where do these "feral" bees of which you write come from?
> 
> ...


No, I do not think they can be trained like a horse. I do think that they can be manipulated in certain circumstances. Not only do I think this but there has been much research on the idea that you can manipulate bee's Via genetics, through certain actions from the beek, re-queening, ect. Just like when some take brood from a strong hive and put it to a weaker hive... that is manipulation in and attempt to strengthen the weaker hive. Or using a robber trap in order to bring other bee's into the frey... that is manipulation. Or shuffling hive bodies and brood in order to prevent swarms. Now just like most of the research I have read, and advice that I had no problem asking for without having my feeling's hurt when I was wrong in an assumption, not everything works 100%.. just like nature they either adapt or not. In no way do I believe that they can be trained to heal, roll over, or sit.. but you CAN to some degree force a change in their environment and they adapt to it. This also INCLUDES putting a calm queen in a hot hive in an attempt to calm them. Again not 100% but the percentages are higher to exact a change. 

As far as the feral bee's I don't think I need to define that, but for entertainment purposes: Existing in a wild or untamed state. Having returned to an untamed state from domestication, of or suggestive of a wild animal; savage: a feral grin.

Ahhh the ever detailed explanation.. Ok yes you are right, they do change the crystals into liquid.. Matter of fact almost every creature converts the physical form of a food item in order for their bodies process it. Just like when you eat an apple it is first pulverized with the teeth, and then moved into a cooking pot of acids where it is converted int "liquid form" and the processed through the digestive tract and all wastes are excreted. But do we say it that way? No we say we eat an apple, orange, are a steak.. but in the end we convert it to a liquid... 

While I appreciate cynicism, I have to say you'd think he said "Hey I have the cure for all bee's in the world... fed em a banana." No he said "Hey I have been feeding a banana to my bee's, has anyone tried it, and is there any recorded ill affects in doing so." I mean in the end it's your choice on what you do with your bee's.. Just like it is his choice. Like I said at one time penicillin was just some nasty fungus...


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Sometimes it's just best not to feed the never ending stream of divergent questions/statements.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very well said barry. for what it's worth, i use over ripe bananas in my home made wax moth traps. i mix one cup water, one cup sugar, the meat from one over ripe banana, and a little bit of apple cider vinegar. that goes in an empty plastic jug with a hole cut in the top and hung from a tree limb. everything but my bees are attracted to it.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I wouldn't waste a banana doing so. I'd rather eat it myself. You must be quite well off in todays economy to utilize/waste bananas in this manner.


When you buy organic bananas they will not last as long because they don't have preservatives. The bananas we put in the freezer are too far gone to eat solely as a banana but are excellent for banana bread that gets baked. The banana I gave my bees you would not eat unless you regularly eat bananas with a spoon. No waste in our house.


----------



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

here in FL, SHB thrive in many compost piles both homemade and out in the fields. I have seen piles of melons and other fruits become a feeding and breeding ground for SHB. I would imagine a banana or other fruit placed in the hive might also be an attractant in SHB territory. We dont even feed pollen patties here, within a few days of placement the beetle larvae are doing the backstoke through them.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Sounds like perfect bait to rid the hives of beetles.


----------



## Naymond Rae (Sep 21, 2011)

Oddly enough since he started feeding bananas there have only been one or two instances of seeing SHB.. When him and I did an inspection about three weeks ago only saw two out of three small hives.

Not saying the banana had anything to do with it but according to my dad it's not uncommon to see one or two every so often.. So no increase


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i use a similar bait in my beetle traps that seems to work pretty good. i mix two tablespoons over ripe banana, one teaspoon apple cider vinegar, and and pinch of yeast.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

opcorn:Another Banana thread-YIKES!:lookout: TED


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ted the sioux don't eat bananas because you don't shoot them with arrows and they come from the gods of far away lands.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Randy Ray said:


> Granted my strain of bees may be calmer than yours meaning the queen doesn't emit the sting pheromone at the drop of a hat.


SHE CAN'T EMIT THE STING PHEROMONE BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T HAVE THE RIGHT PARTS, A NASENOV SCENT GLAND.

Besides, the scent given off by the Nasanov scent gland isn't even a pheromone, it is a scentg which attracts bees to each other while in a swarm, which helps to keep them together. It is also emitted to bring the rest of the colony to a new home. As one will observe when collecting swarms.

So when you write about the sting pheromone and how the Queen controls the colony, I think you need to do more than observe your bees. You need to read some Bee Books.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Since the subject of this Thread seems to be the user of Bananas in Beehives as a source of sustinence, I think it is important for people to speak a common language and have in common an understanding of the definitions of the terms being used. Otherwise, when people cling to their own definitions, confusion amnd misunderstanding will reign.

The idea of feeding bees something which is primarily indigestable to them is Bananas. Or banana like. As I understand the terms to mean in their various forms.


----------



## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

sqkcrk:
"i could be wrong" but I think you will find that the source of the two scents for different purposes are separated by the last segment of the abdomen.
Walt


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

Monsanto may be making your "superior over banana,* Bee Food Patty*" in the future, the lack of logic shown by some in response of my post, gives me pause. 

To say a banana can't be digested by a bee, but a patty giving to the account of *Mould, Grease, and Soy-meal*" and what ever else, could by being expensive make it easy for them to digest. Anything out in the open air that the bees would eat naturally is actually their food source. Only man has polluted it with poisons.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If I may make a suggestion. Don't feed your bees anything they don't gather themselves. Manage your colonies so feeding is not necassary.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

Sometimes when someone wants to match wits, rather than be an observer of bees, I have seen these post in Beesource get off topic or points that has been originally stated is lost.



Randy Ray said:


> With 14 vitamins and 11 minerals why isn't bananas the chosen food to feed honey bees over just sugar water, yeast and soy products. In comparison of sugar, versus *pollen and nectar from flowers*, seems to be as a junk food to bees, as Mc.Donolds is to humans.
> 
> Beside the odour of bananas, mimic the sting pheromone, I would think it would be a great emergency food for them, or to help winter them over until the colony becomes *strong enough to sustain themselves naturally.*
> 
> ...






Randy Ray said:


> *I'd rather not feed any at all on the advice of Michael Bush's website reading.*


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, I'm really not sure what that was about. I don't see any wit matching going on, as much as I see someone not willing to answer questions when they are posed seriously.

Why do you feel a need to put babanas in your hives to FEED them? Have you failed to manage them in a manner that allows tyhem their own food supply? What prompted you to do this to begin with?


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

To return to the real purpose of this post, here is a site with the nutritional value of bananas. I would appreciate if someone with an exhaustive knowledge of bee biology, tell us what component of the banana would prove bad or worse for a bee, over the nutrition of a manufactured bee patty.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1846/2


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK well the thread that started out reasonably well, has now become 10 pages of pointless argument.

However thanks for the nutritional info Randy, which shows that banana is very different to pollen.

However if you want to insist that banana is the food for bees, I'd suggest TRYING it..... For some people, experience is the best way to learn.

More pages of arguing is pointless.


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

So Randy Ray how many hives have ya tried this on. What were your observations of the bees after they ate the bananas did it help your bees, was there difference in honey production more/less/same. Did it accomplish what ya were trying to accomplish is the research on going???? The results are what count not scoring points in a discussion.


----------



## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Randy:

Please learn enough biology and physiology to know what you are talking about before attempting to discuss this subject. 

Bees are insects, not people -- much of what is food for people isn't digestable by bees (which is why you should not use powdered sugar in feeding bees, it contains cornstarch and can cause dysentary in bees). Bananas are adequate food for humans, but NOT bees.

As a said before, bees live on, exclusively, pollen or pollen like protein and sugar solution (honey). Protein supplements are tricky, most of the common materials are nowhere near as good for the bees as pollen as they do not contain the correct sterols or fats and waxes.

Bees will ignore anything else, just like you ignore hay or straw as food. 

Peter


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

psfred said:


> Randylease learn enough biology and physiology to know what you are talking about before attempting to discuss this subject. Peter


 I think he's doing it OK he is at least trying it on his own bees. Sooner or later we all have to challenge mom and dad to see who we are. Mom said DON't touch the stove its hot. Ya right how well did that turn out.  Why do we older bee folks get our shorts all in a wad when someone challenges the statis quoe (SP)


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

mac said:


> So Randy Ray how many hives have ya tried this on. What were your observations of the bees after they ate the bananas did it help your bees, was there difference in honey production more/less/same. Did it accomplish what ya were trying to accomplish is the research on going???? The results are what count not scoring points in a discussion.


 I got the information I was looking for. Thanks for your participation.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Because some things just don't make much sense. On the face of it anyway. Nutritiuonally and economically. Who has bananas to waste feeding them to bees when it is unlikely that thery will benefit from them.

We know what bees eat and it isn't bananas. Do Zoologists feed their apes and monkeys pollen and honey rather than those things which monkeys and apes thrive on?

Not to mention PRESENTATION. The way an outside the box idea is presented is quite important. And it appears that one may not know all that much about bees, but they want to present an idea as one which will be beneficial.

I never did get an answer to what good an artificial alarm pheromone would have being in a beehive. I would think that sort of thing would throw off the balance of the beehive, if anything. But, having never done it, and having no interest in doing so, I thought maybe someone who had would have something to report. Guess I was wrong.


----------



## Naymond Rae (Sep 21, 2011)

mac said:


> I think he's doing it OK he is at least trying it on his own bees. Sooner or later we all have to challenge mom and dad to see who we are. Mom said DON't touch the stove its hot. Ya right how well did that turn out.  Why do we older bee folks get our shorts all in a wad when someone challenges the statis quoe (SP)


Mac i absolutely could not put it any better myself. There is nothing wrong with stepping outside the norm. My hat's off to you.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

My observations on my hives today answered the question no one could disclose to me. The pollen cells are and will be void of bananas. The nutrition of the banana would only affect a small percentage of the brood. The bees would get vitamins and minerals but not help on increase. Any good development on the larva would be due majorly on the pollen stores. Maybe it can be a remedy for chalk brood but I don't expect it to manipulate egg laying. Thanks for all of your participation on my post.


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

Good ending to 11 pages. SEE we can play nice.  Back to Monsanto land


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i'm proud of ya'll!


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

Thanks. Me too Do ya think we may have 11 pages of Congratulations???


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

:banana: Shoot! I thought someone would jump in and argue in favor of feeding Bananas for increase :banana:


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

:banana:

My Reply to the above Post is:

So, does that tell you anything? It should. It would me.

Hey, I learned something from Randy. Thanks Randy. Now if I can learn how to Post all the other icons I'll really be creative. Uh, oh.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Now if I can learn how to Post all the other icons I'll really be creative. Uh, oh.


Click around on the Posting Permissions below then you'll learn more.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

:wiener:

Thanks


----------



## Naymond Rae (Sep 21, 2011)

:ws: gotta love how a stinging critter can cause such havoc and yet create such friendship..:gh: glad to see the answer came out


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What? What answer? I must have missed it. :lookout:


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> What? What answer? I must have missed it. :lookout:


I believe he is referencing this quote.



Randy Ray said:


> The pollen cells are and will be void of bananas. The nutrition of the banana would only affect a small percentage of the brood. The bees would get vitamins and minerals but not help on increase. Any good development on the larva would be due majorly on the pollen stores. Maybe it can be a remedy for chalk brood but I don't expect it to manipulate egg laying.


I even could be wrong in my own statement I'm expanding on. But.

If I may reiterate; I'm as contemptible about manufactured bee bread, as you are about the banana will not or can not supply adequate nutrition to the honey bee. Do the bees store the Patty?

The post was to evoke thought, that if the manufactured patty or home made patty for that matter, was superior over a banana. And neither being placed in the pollen cells, what would be the harm to feed them cheaply on bananas. 

I am not able to locate the nutritional values of the patties to compare.

And no one has come forward with: Oh! don't feed bees bananas! It will kill them or make them killer bees or a banana can cause a disease inside the hive. 

What I got was contempt prior to investigation, and an attitude like I had called your mother a bad name. I didn't intend the post to go BANANAS as the subject may imply.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Randy Ray said:


> I didn't intend the post to go BANANAS as the subject may imply.


If your thought patterns are anywhere near "outside the box" the thread will go bananas.


----------



## Randy Ray (Nov 13, 2006)

Acebird said:


> If your thought patterns are anywhere near "outside the box" the thread will go bananas.


Yeah and the, manufactured and home made, patty is the inside view of the status quo, box :doh: Funny


----------

