# Dark Queen



## dynemd

Beautiful!


----------



## mike martel

wow she looks huge !


----------



## Beeonefarms

Very nice picture +1


----------



## mathesonequip

I really could use a half dozen like her. wow!


----------



## jwcarlson

Purdy! I have a few swarm queens that look similar in the "pattern" except they are not as dark. Similar markings down the midsections and rings.


----------



## DCH

Wow! Looks just like the queens (mother & daughter) that were raised in two of our hives. Beautiful rich brown/black coloring. Never saw any of our queens look like this before last year. Any idea if it's a particular breed, as ours are pretty much what the colony raised?

Cheers,
Doug


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Queens that chilled during their growth phase turn darker than the breed usually is. So if you usually have queens in light colour, and you get a dark queen from a light coloured mother, you may have a queen that was grown up too cold. It is a possibility. So although they look nice, they may fail to buildup a strong colony and keep it going strong for a longer time. So watch closely.


----------



## snl

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Queens that chilled during their growth phase turn darker than the breed usually is. So if you usually have queens in light colour, and you get a dark queen from a light coloured mother, you may have a queen that was grown up too cold.


Really? Something new to me.........


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

I learn new things everyday, too, 'specially 'bout bees.


----------



## beepro

That one look like the one Laurie has.

BH, does the cold chill affect the Cordovan queens too? I don't want her color to turn
darker than what it is as I have some Cordovan qcs right now in the colder part of the hive.


----------



## Yvesrow1

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Queens that chilled during their growth phase turn darker than the breed usually is. So if you usually have queens in light colour, and you get a dark queen from a light coloured mother, you may have a queen that was grown up too cold. It is a possibility. So although they look nice, they may fail to buildup a strong colony and keep it going strong for a longer time. So watch closely.


update: I have mutt bees, I bought extremely dark bees from one supplier claiming it was Russian Stock and unknown breed bees from another supplier which looked like typical Italians. Why it's so dark I'll never know but I do know it's pumping out eggs like crazy in a textbook pattern, the hive is extremely gentle and average productive, it's definitely a keeper!


----------



## msscha

Very pretty queen!


----------



## Riskybizz

Bernhard your statement begs for documentation


----------



## Redneck

This queen looks like a Carniolan Queen.


----------



## jonathan

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Queens that chilled during their growth phase turn darker than the breed usually is.


Is there a reference for that?

The queen in the picture looks pretty much like a Carnica queen.


----------



## biggraham610

I had a VSH open mated daughters, daughter come back like that, not quite as dark but nearly, she is one of my best layers now, and one of my tidiest colonies. G


----------



## Michael Bush

I have a lot of queens that look a lot like that and they typically are my best queens. I don't mind the darker ones as they tend to produce more of these kind...


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Influence of Temperature on Rate of Development and Color Patterns of Queen Honey Bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae)*
SPIVAK, MARLA; ZELTZER, ABBIE; DEGRANDI-HOFFMAN, GLORIA; MARTIN, JOSEPH H.
Environmental Entomology, Volume 21, Number 2, April 1992, pp. 364-370(7)
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/esa/envent/1992/00000021/00000002/art00021

"Queens are significantly darker when held at constant temperatures of 30.5°C during the last instar and pupal stages compared to 35.5°C."
"This study and that of Spivak et al (1992) demonstrated that the expression of genes for color is modulated by constant temperatures."
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/file/index/docid/891063/filename/hal-00891063.pdf


----------



## Riskybizz

Thanks Bernhard


----------



## Michael Bush

>"Queens are significantly darker when held at constant temperatures of 30.5°C during the last instar and pupal stages compared to 35.5°C."

I've noticed they are also significantly darker when their mother was significantly darker... or there are a lot of darker drones around...


----------



## jonathan

BernhardHeuvel said:


> *Influence of Temperature on Rate of Development and Color Patterns of Queen Honey Bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae)*
> SPIVAK, MARLA; ZELTZER, ABBIE; DEGRANDI-HOFFMAN, GLORIA; MARTIN, JOSEPH H.
> Environmental Entomology, Volume 21, Number 2, April 1992, pp. 364-370(7)
> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/esa/envent/1992/00000021/00000002/art00021


Thanks Bernhard.
A bigger issue with chilled queen cells is likely to be wings which are not fully developed. Guess it depends how early on in development the chilling occurs. The last 48 hours before emergence are not so critical.

My queens are all dark like these ones.


----------



## juniorbeeman

I love dark queens. this one is like tiger stripes! Very cool thanks for sharing.


----------



## Dominic

BernhardHeuvel said:


> *Influence of Temperature on Rate of Development and Color Patterns of Queen Honey Bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae)*
> SPIVAK, MARLA; ZELTZER, ABBIE; DEGRANDI-HOFFMAN, GLORIA; MARTIN, JOSEPH H.
> Environmental Entomology, Volume 21, Number 2, April 1992, pp. 364-370(7)
> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/esa/envent/1992/00000021/00000002/art00021
> 
> "Queens are significantly darker when held at constant temperatures of 30.5°C during the last instar and pupal stages compared to 35.5°C."
> "This study and that of Spivak et al (1992) demonstrated that the expression of genes for color is modulated by constant temperatures."
> https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/file/index/docid/891063/filename/hal-00891063.pdf


Thanks, that's an interesting article!

Also cites a couple of other interesting article on cuticle colors, on of which mentions there is a recessive gene that suppresses all yellow (somewhat of an opposite of the cordovan gene), another that mentions there are probably at least seven loci involved in bee morphs.

The better we understand the factors in play with cuticle color, the easier (and more affordable) it becomes to get rough estimates of mating population control.

Honey bee "looks" really do deserve more attention, in my opinion.


----------



## Dominic

juniorbeeman said:


> I love dark queens. this one is like tiger stripes! Very cool thanks for sharing.


I've been calling them tigers too. 

Got them for the first time from the local research center's breeding program last year, never saw them from other beekeepers before.

https://www.facebook.com/Apis.rusti...0.1423780922./788677914538691/?type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/Apis.rusti...0.1423781109./711629622243521/?type=3&theater

I never really thought of them as dark queens, though. My pitch-black queens are what I consider to be my dark queens, but sadly I didn't take many pictures of them. Here's one of Lauri's, though: https://www.facebook.com/2569549710...0.1423782290./705485402854129/?type=3&theater


----------



## Goran

Michael Bush said:


> >"Queens are significantly darker when held at constant temperatures of 30.5°C during the last instar and pupal stages compared to 35.5°C."
> 
> I've noticed they are also significantly darker when their mother was significantly darker... or there are a lot of darker drones around...


I wonder why 

At my place we are blessed with carnies. There is so much diversity within carnies, that I never wish any other to try. But also cause carnies are here native, they are most suitable for our area.. 
Here are pics of several queens from my hives..


----------



## Rolande

Double post.


----------



## Rolande

> Queens that chilled during their growth phase turn darker than the breed usually is


Although it's an old thread, there's an extra reference from Jay Smith who came to the same conclusion through observation as early as 1923, the following quote from 'Queen Rearing Simplified' is copy/pasted from MB's transcript on his website.



> A number of methods are used to get the virgin queen safely into the nucleus in which she is to lay after mating. One is by allowing the queen in the cell which is kept in a strong colony for incubation to emerge in a nursery cage. I used that method for several years, but have discarded it since I could not get so good, vigorous queens in that manner. I found there are two reasons for this. One is because the bees are unable to cluster closely around the cells in order to keep the temperature right, and the result is faulty incubation of the tender pupa. This defect manifests itself in two ways, by smaller queens and darker queens. *If the cells are kept too cold, it makes the queens dark.*
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearingsimplified.htm


----------

