# Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Are they used to treat bees or beetles? SHBs aren't pests of honeybees, in the true sense, they are pests of the equipment, the combs. So, in one sense the traps treat the hive, but not the colony. I guess.

Not being treatment free I didn't vote.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Seems to me they would fall into a similar category of mouse guards or SBB's.

Dan


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## blueskybeesupply (Dec 11, 2007)

I would consider it a treatment, as you are likely using apple-cider vinegar and/or vegetable or mineral oil in the well. Granted, these are not active chemical agents, but these are still foreign substances to a hive's natural chemistry. Although the bees shouldn't be able to access the well, the beetles will. I wouldn't use beetle traps unless I felt I had a high population of beetles in the hive that I didn't want to allow. So, to me, I would be "treating" for the beetles--to eliminate a potential pest.

That being said, beetles never winter well in Northeast Ohio and seldom present a real issue year over year. If they find a home (usually introduced through packages in our area), they only hasten the decline of poor colonies left unchecked--with other issues that were really killing the colony.

Just my 2¢.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Im treatment free and although i have never had any problems with beetles it seems that they are more of a piece of hardware, such as an in-hive feeder would be. Ive never used them personally.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

I gave up considering myself treatment free for the forum purposes when folks argued that feeding sugar syrup was a treatment. Then the debate about HBH, and now SHB traps. Those in northern climes have the luxury of this "discussion." The rest will either trap, or lose their hives.
Regards,
Steven


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## VaNewbee (Mar 20, 2011)

What SHB traps are you using? I tried the beetle blaster traps and never found many SHB in them despite seeing plenty of SHB whenever I go into my hives. For me to consider the traps "treatment", I'd have to see that they actually did something.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

I tried the cd traps, but they didn't work very well. Had very good luck with AJ Beetleeaters, and the newer Beetlejails. So far I like the Beetlejails, they seem to do as well as Aj's, and are much cheaper. I use 2-4 per hive.
Regards,
Steven


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

StevenG said:


> Those in northern climes have the luxury of this "discussion." The rest will either trap, or lose their hives.


...this either/or ignores the many beekeepers who don't use traps (in Florida and other southern climes) and don't lose their hives....or are you claiming they don't exist?

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...to the original question....
it really depends on what one's reasons for being "treatment free" is.
if one simply doesn't want to risk contaminating the food they are going to eat, feed their family, or sell to the public, then most beetle traps, used properly are not going to cause problems.

otoh, if one is looking to select bees that can handle the beetles for breeding purposes, then a trap is problematic.

deknow


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

That's a good point. If you want to protect your food, go organic. If you want to work for the health of the bees long term, go treatment-free. That's my methodology.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...and if you want to be ambiguous as to what your practices are, claim "organic" or "ipm" 

deknow


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

It really depends on the year, location, situation... shb migrations can fluctuate from a few per hive one season to thousands per hive the next... in the later case, there is really no chance of selecting from genetics that can truly withstand them... its like trying to select for fire proof bees by lighting every hive on fire... BUT there is a way to use traps to limit the assaults and still select for specific control levels... 

The traps that do not kill shb, but rather give the bees a place to imprison them will not overly assist the bees, but will give them a chance to learn that shb are a threat and give the breeder a chance to see which hives are more effective at keeping them at bay... 

Interesting side note about that... I recently received a letter from the state of MS saying that a certain inspector claims that the product "Beetle Juice" should be registered as a pesticide... HONEY a pesticide?? Pollen a pesticide?? Pollen Substitutes as pesticides?? Cane sugar a pesticide??

It appears that the while the epa and nearly all state codes definition of pesticides do not include an attractant made of foods (that the pest would naturally feed upon, such as cheese in a mouse trap), the state of MS has a slightly extended definition adding the words "or attractants"... but is broad and does not define "attractants" like the epa does as being "substances other than food".

So, we have been asked to register the ingredients of the product as pesticides... I of course have requested that the state consider this for exemption, as it is clearly not the laws intent... its likened to using a stronger smelling Sharp cheddar in mouse traps within an American Cheese production facility... its the same ingredients that are in the hives already, just allowed to smell stronger and be applied in a trap...

So how about you guys? How would you feel about someone forcing your honey to be labeled as a pesticide????...

(this honey and pollen is collected from hives that have never been treated BTW, not that it matters for this issue, but it mattered to me in the production of the product)...

The larger picture is that once one state claims it as a pesticide, it can legally be deemed that by anyone.... NOT happening!


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## megank (Mar 28, 2006)

Treatment free is in the eye of the beholder IMO As stated earlier, is feeding syrup a treatment to keep bees healthy and alive? Yup...Interesting that formic and oxalic acids are naturally occur in honey, yet when those chemicals are used as treatment for mites it is regarded as such even though there's no appreciable increase in concentration of said chemicals in honey from hives treated.

So really those who are of the treatment free are really splitting hairs with the term as true treatment free is adding nothing foreign into the hives whether it be sugar, vegetable oil, sticky boards or whatever.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Yes..


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

This question is solely about beetle traps. The rest have been litigated ad nauseum and the results are in the Unique Forum Rules.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

Personally I don't consider a trap a treatment. When I think of a treatment I think of something that is invasive into the health of the bees. The traps I prefer are cd traps and they're basically just a dead end entrance door for a beetle that doesn't belong in the hive anyway. The traps would be I would say in the same category as a screened bottom board. The mites fall through out of the hive. Is a screened bottom board a treatment? Perhaps beetle traps would be a treatment to some but I'm not super up on the treatment free guidelines.
Best Wishes to the Beetle Juice team with the exemption. If logic dictates the outcome I would think you will be ok but perhaps they will make it more difficult than that, I hope not . Beetle juice and cd traps helped me trap more beetles than I expected this season. I don't know where the beetles are coming from but they're here. Best Wishes to everyone, VW


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Well, it looks like a pretty solid ~2:1 margin against the idea that beetle traps are treatments. Until changes, I think I will list beetle traps under 'Manipulations' in the Unique Forum Rules.

Myself, I am a purist, so I disagree, but I can still be civil and bow to the will of the people. As long as the oil or whatever substance is used doesn't get into the hive or honey, I wouldn't mind eating the honey from it.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I agree with Bluesky. If there is any chance/way the substance within a trap can be brought out of it and into the greater hive, it has become a treatment. Can we safely say it's Hotel California, "You can checkout any time you like, But you can never leave!"


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## gkervitsky (Nov 20, 2008)

I am late to this discussion by a week or so, but I agree with Barry, and therefore bluesky. If the trap includes a chemical mite strip, boric acid, or other things that can get out and negatively affect the bees, its a treatment. Trapping/corralling is a behavior that bees exhibit; squishing them with a hive tool or long tipped tweezers is a behavior that beekeepers exhibit. Neither are treatments!


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I, like Mark, do not consider my operation to be "treatment-free," so I did not vote. I would like to point out, however, that integrated pest management (IPM) is generally defined with categories of control methods: mechanical control, cultural control, chemical control, biological control. For the purposes of IPM, "manipulations" of a system for the purposes of effecting control over a pest is considered a "treatment."

If you follow strict IPM definitions, everything suggested is a "treatment."

If by "treatment-free," you mean "no chemical applications made," the method is open to debate.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Does not being "treatment-free" mean a person can't vote? The poll question is "Are beetle traps treatments?"...with no conditions presented. Between yours and Mark's vote (and maybe more) that would narrow the margins on the voting results. BTW, I agree with you on the terminology of "treatment-free" versus "no chemical applications made", better defined...well said.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

is essential oil of thyme a "chemical"....what if it is synthetic rather than naturally derived?
is grated onion a chemical?

deknow


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Intheswamp said:


> Does not being "treatment-free" mean a person can't vote?


Never stopped anyone before. There's no way to moderate votes. Fortunately, there's few enough of them frequenting this forum so as not to be a big problem.

However if you go back and look in the archives, when we voted on the definitions for 'treatment-free' it was usually the admittedly conventional beekeepers who put forth the most attempts to obfuscate the issue. I am happy to include conventional beekeepers in these discussions, but it's dishonorable for persons who have no interest in subscription to the philosophy to attempt to shape it. If you are not treatment-free, I appreciate abstention from voting. I respect you for that.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Essential oil of thyme is a chemical. Grated onion would likely be a chemical control (unless you're adding it as an ingredient for a tasty new bee dish, I guess); if the intention for the grated onion is repelling a pest by using the aromatic chemical from the onion, it is a chemical control.

"Synthetic" versus "naturally-derived" gets to splitting hairs pretty finely, I think. Is pyrethrum a chemical treatment? Pyrethrum is naturally derived from a plant. A pyrethroid is a chemical synthesized by human activities, but is a chemical analog of pyrethrum. Why would one be a chemical and not the other?

Just for clarification as well, "naturally-derived" does not equate to "non-toxic to humans." Cyanide is naturally derived. Arsenic is naturally occurring. Uranium is natural. So is lead. All are natural and toxic.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Well by some of the definitions here I would say no. By some of the other definitions I would have to say using a smoker would be considered a treatment, or using foundation.


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

It depends what the definition of a treatment is.

Are my bees treatment "free"?

I have chickens, ducks and guinea hens foraging and scratching around my beehives.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I don't consider it a treatment. Opinions vary. I cannot see how a trap could be considered treatment when the entire rest of the hive is not.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

If you'll direct your attention to the Unique Forum Rules, you'll find them updated regarding this subject several weeks ago.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm not sure that I agree with the definitions posted in the Unique Forum Rules, but I'm glad to see "treatments" defined for the purposes of discussions in this section.


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