# From treated comb to treatment free, how to?



## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I am buying six colonies from my mentor's estate. He treated for everything. I do not have enough untreated drawn frames to replace the frames in 6, 2 deep colonies. I may have enough for 2 colonies. I am going to requeen as soon as is I can, & stay with untreated comb.

Q. What is the best way to retire the treated comb with minimal stress to bees?


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

I've read recommendations to replace 2 frames a year per deep with foundation.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Having never done this myself, understand that this is what I would do, not what I did do.

I would try to get rid of all the contaminated wax in one shot. Since you only have enough frames for two colonies, that's what you should do first. Or, if you have enough for two double deep colonies, you could shake them out and do four colonies in single deeps as long as you could get the old frames rehabilitated by the time the colonies needed them. Do a sort of musical chairs switcheroo until everyone is off the old stuff. The problem with shaking out a whole hive is the potential for absconding which we don't want.

Or, you could shake out only one deep, replacing it with foundation. When the bees have open brood in the new one, you can shake out the old one.

If you're switching from large cell bees to small cell bees, there may be several steps as they get progressively smaller. I've heard Mann Lake PF-100/PF-120 frames can be a good one step option.

Make sure you get quality queens. They will give you a good leg up. A good option in your area would be Sam Comfort of Anarchy Apiaries. http://anarchyapiaries.org/ He doesn't mail them, you'll have to go pick them up, a very excellent option if you think about it.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Here is what I did, I positioned two of the (I will call them bad for ease) bad frames against the outside walls once the brood hatched I pulled the frames and let them rob the stored honey out, then moved the next two until all five where out. Took a while but had less impact on the hive due to loss of brood. I am not saying this is the best way, it is just what I did. Keep in mind this was just removing the 5 nuc frames, for the whole shebang I would go thru frame by frame and pull any that have little or no brood and then proceed with the moving frames with brood toward the walls. With a double deep you could also put a queen excluder between the boxes and after all the brood has emerged from the half without the queen replace those frames and reverse.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would mark them. As NasalSponge says, put them on the outside edges, and/or above an excluder until the brood has emerged. Then pull them out.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

If they are all treated (bad) frames, are you replacing center frames with new undrawn? I don't expect to go to foundationless YET, but I have considered & like the idea of small cell. Is ML the only maker? What can I expect if I put small cell in center? Small cell in brood, regular in honey supers? I have a lot of new medium foundation (B Mt.) to use.
Retire as fast as they draw out & feed 1:1?
I don't recall who posted the AZ conference w/ Dean Stiglitz but THANK YOU!

I saw @ Sam's site that he was out of qns. I would certainly like to meet him & some of the other east of me beeks. I just ordered Dean's book. I have been trying to find much reading material from K. Webster, Sam, Dean, MP(waiting for his book) as I can. It would be nice to see websites from these guys similar to M. Bush's, & build from there.


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## hillhousehoney (Oct 7, 2008)

Hi lakebilly:
Far from an expert here but will take a shot. Are you planning on running an unlimited brood nest? If your queen has access to all of the hive boxes she could conceivably lay in the larger cell option if given to her. I believe that it is a good idea to stay as close to that 4.9 throughout the hive. I use the Honey Super Cell (4.9) to regress than swap out and add Mann Lake 4.95. They take to it well, and it still works against the varroa mite development cycle.

I'm always willing to be corrected if I am wrong.
Have a great day. TW


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

lakebilly said:


> I saw @ Sam's site that he was out of qns. I would certainly like to meet him & some of the other east of me beeks. I just ordered Dean's book. I have been trying to find much reading material from K. Webster, Sam, Dean, MP(waiting for his book) as I can. It would be nice to see websites from these guys similar to M. Bush's, & build from there.


Lakebilly, Sam doesn't always keep his site updated perfectly. Your info on his being sold out for 2011 was posted last winter I think. Last year he told me he could have queens for sale anytime Spring-Summer with a little advance notice. Try calling him!- he's very nice. Also he is planning on starting up his bee club meetings in Germantown NY again any time now I think. Last year he brought a couple of boxed queens to a club meeting that a member had ordered from him and the member took them home after the meeting. I go to some of his club meetings, and am waiting for them to start up again this Spring. Sam runs almost all top bar hives. His bees are supposed to be real nice, are never treated, so a queen would be cool from him.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Omie, I'm not sure I would travel 8-9 hrs to get 6-8 Qns, though I would certainly LOVE to have some of those bees. I am going to Michael Johnstons (Eaton) in May for TWO nucs. Maybe if I could coordinate the date, manipulate my fate, (aw, stop it!) Does he frequent this forum? I see his cell# @ his site. I would love to get my numbers up & start an attempt @ Qn rearing. Some qns from Sam, MP, MB, some that I have seen in Canada, brought here and passed around would beeeee good.

HHH, I need to get more info on small cell, availabilty, cost. I see that the Jedi's seem to agree that small cell is the way to go, even when some are claiming that "studies" show no relevance to mite control. (wonder what they're sellin?)


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I wonder how much drone comb was present in the hives in those studies.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

lakebilly said:


> Omie, I'm not sure I would travel 8-9 hrs to get 6-8 Qns, though I would certainly LOVE to have some of those bees. I am going to Michael Johnstons (Eaton) in May for TWO nucs. Maybe if I could coordinate the date, manipulate my fate, (aw, stop it!) Does he frequent this forum? I see his cell# @ his site. I would love to get my numbers up & start an attempt @ Qn rearing. Some qns from Sam, MP, MB, some that I have seen in Canada, brought here and passed around would beeeee good.


Lakebilly, your profile says Livingston NY- that's about *25 min drive* from Sam in Germantown NY. If you are no longer in Livingston, then I didn't realize that- sorry.  
Sam does come on this forum occasionally, but he doesn't hang out much on forums. You are best calling him via his site's phone #.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Omie, I have tried to update my "Location"(can't seem to figure out how) I live in Livingston County. Specificly, Livonia. 20 minutes due south of Rochester. I have not found any Qn Breeders here. My goals for beekeeping are to raise my numbers(30-50), learn how to rear Qns, promote Northern Beek businesses (Honey & selling bees) all part time. There are a few beeks around, biggest one locally (that I am aware of) has 100 hives. The average (my math) beek has 2-4 colonies. I think that networking w/Northern beeks and breeders should be a mutual concern. I am perplexed @ the lack of awareness of foreign imports & the limits that imports have on what should be a decent way to make a living. Not to mention the poor quality of aforementioned imports.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lakebilly said:


> There are a few beeks around, biggest one locally (that I am aware of) has 100 hives. The average (my math) beek has 2-4 colonies.


You must not know The Doans. Jim has 1,000 or more, most of the time.
There are hundreds on beekeepers around you.
Check out eshpa.org and you will find a link to a local bkprs ass. near you.
The Empire State Honey Producers Association is having its summer picnic at the Canandaigua VA Hospital in July. Tom Seeley, speaker. Details on the website too. Hope to see you there.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I have been to the VA twice this yr. I only know a cpl of the regulars. I don't know the Doans by name. Jill Stackpole (Bloomfield Honey Farm) is the 100 colony beek I mentioned. I watched Tom Seeley in a vid someone posted about swarms, interesting. I would say that in 3 yrs I have met maybe 30 beeks in 20 miles of me. Not all go to meetings. I am not at all encouraged by the lack of mutual & local promotion of this craft. 160 nucs bought by association, ZERO from northern suppliers! I think that is atrocious. I hope to get qns from Jill. I know that she & Bill are non treatment advocates.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Northern beekeepers getting their bees from southern suppliers is and old and illustrious tradition and got bees in boxes much earlier than northern suppliers could, I do believe this is changing and for the better. With this change comes a change in management like requeening in the fall with northern produced queen etc. Does anyone up yonder know....what is the earliest you could get a package of bees from a northern supplier??


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

There are Northern Package Bee Suppliers?


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

I asked myself that very question as I pushed the send button..8) But surely there are queen breeders....what is the earliest one could procure a northern raised queen?? This is just for my personal info...I am not making a point.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Seems to be in the air- more and more small scale and hobby BKs up North learning to split and make nucs and raise their own queens- people seem to be having more trouble with overwintering, the price of gas/shipping, SHB spread, delays in the timely package supply end, etc. Like NoseSponge said, one of the useful tools is requeening with a northern/local queen in the Fall, thus breaking the mite cycle just before winter. This year I will be making my own first splits/nucs/queens. Wish me luck!


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

NasalSponge said:


> I asked myself that very question as I pushed the send button..8) But surely there are queen breeders....what is the earliest one could procure a northern raised queen?? This is just for my personal info...I am not making a point.


Well, just one data point- here a little SE of Albany I did not see any drones nor any drone brood yet in my hive as of last week. I plan to check the hive in a few days and look for drone brood. Can't make queens without drones!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

What happens if you put all your supers under the deep?

If the bees build down won't they fill the top deep with honey and move down in succession? After the second super is put under you could pull the deep on top extract the honey and then place it under the supers with new frames. You could add a second deep if you like and then your are back to regular clean hive. It is just an idea.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Can't make queens without drones!


That is a new one. Why not.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

They can "make" them but they would be of no use unless they can mate...no drones, no mating.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

It is my understanding that virgin queens don't mate with their brothers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mike Palmers Queens come available in July. Or is it June. He is from Northern VT.
Kutik Queens, raised in NY, will be available in Mid-May. Tho, since these are raised from colonies that travel to SC for the winter and then back to NY for the summer, wouldn't fit what you are looking for.
Peggjam, doesn't he raise queens?
Bob Brachmann, from Chattaqua or Cattaragus Co. NY raises queens. I don't have his number. A Western NY Beekeepers Ass. member.

They are out there if you spend some time looking. Those are the ones that come to mind at the moment.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Omie said:


> Can't make queens without drones!


Rule of thumb, don't start grafting your queen cells until you do see emerging drone brood. Not because your queens will need to mate w/ their brothers, but because seeing them in your colonies indicates their availability in the environment from other colonies. Generally speaking queens fly farther away from home to mate than drones do. That's my understanding.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> What happens if you put all your supers under the deep?


Potentionally swarming. But not a bad idea.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Potentionally swarming. But not a bad idea.


Please expand on this. Why does it encourage swarming?


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Rule of thumb, don't start grafting your queen cells until you do see emerging drone brood. Not because your queens will need to mate w/ their brothers, but because seeing them in your colonies indicates their availability in the environment from other colonies. Generally speaking queens fly farther away from home to mate than drones do. That's my understanding.


Yes, that's was my meaning, thank you. Right now I'm waiting until I see drone brood hatching in my own hive before I make a split. Otherwise it tells me my new queen likely won't have anyone to mate with in the neighborhood.


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