# Family Friend Excavated Bee Tree, Should I Try To Save It?



## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

Without seeing the situation you have several options. Cut the tree above and below the cavity and relocate the piece back home. Or do the cutout and take the box and frames home. In your location you probably still have the weather to be sucessfull. If the tree got pushed around a lot the combs may have been broken so the cutout may be a mess.


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## Sheree (Sep 3, 2013)

Here are some photos


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

If you can...Cut out the section of tree. Take it home and put it someplace where you can put some swarm traps near by. I have a friend who has done this and he gets several swarms every year. 

Most states have a law against having a managed hive without movable frames. You may want to set this up outside of your apiary. It would not be a bad idea to get your bee inspector's opinion on the proper way to do this.


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## jakec (May 26, 2015)

I would set that chunk of tree upright and let it go. or chainsaw it open and see what you can get.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"So here's the question: Should I attempt to save the colony in the tree?"

I would if it were within 20 miles or so. 

"Your insights would be much appreciated."

Keep it simple, and be prepared to improvise. Cut out the section of the log with the hive. Cut the top out like the top of a Subway sandwich. Frame the brood. Save the honey. If you have a bee vac, use it. If not, find the queen, cage her, and put her in a nuc or hive box with the brood. Wait till dusk, and move the hive. If you can't find the queen, smoke them gently but consistently for 30 minutes, remove and cover all the wax and honey, let the bees form a cluster and brush them into a box with the framed brood. Have a ladder or a bucket on a pole handy if you can in case they swarm out of reach. You really only need to find one bee. Give the new hive some frames of honey or at least drawn comb if you can spare them, or feed 2:1 sugar syrup if you can't. Ive done the "haul away the log" approach twice and the above approach several times. The above is what I prefer even at this season.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

dsegrest said:


> Most states have a law against having a managed hive without movable frames. .


just curious what state considers a feral colony in a tree a managed hive? I think the only way he could get in trouble with it is if he moved it across county/ state lines without the proper permits


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## Sheree (Sep 3, 2013)

Thanks. Alabama does have a law that requires frames be removable for inspections, but I'd like to think there's something in the rules that would allow time to safely move the feral colony into a hive at the best time to facilitate survival. At least that's my thinking. But I guess I could call and ask.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Fastest course of action would be to cut top and bottom, put piece of plywood over cuts, stand upright at final location, ratchet strap/chain to post or tree to keep from falling over, wait till Spring to cut out or do the swarm trap thing. John Davis has a good point about the comb might have broken loose when the tree was taken down then shoved into a pile. It may be a mess inside and the queen could be dead. You won't know that unless you cut it open.
Are the bees still flying and bringing in pollen? If they are, I would think the comb and the queen may be alright. Good luck and keep us informed. Take lots of photos and post them so we can see how it turns out.


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## Sheree (Sep 3, 2013)

Thanks everyone for your insights.

Question for Riverdewent: I'm a bit confused about your cutting guidance, if I go that route. When I think of Subway sandwiches, I see a long-wise cut down the length of the section that I separated out from the rest of the tree. Something that would let me open like a hot dog bun. Is that what you're talking about?

Since I have no experience with a colony inside a tree, I fear cutting it open without severely damaging everything inside (including the queen, assuming she survived the crash and dozer pushing the tree around).

My guess is that the fall and dozing would not have been kind to the comb inside, unless it's old and hard.

In any event, I guess I'll be tackling it in some way tomorrow or Saturday.

Follow-up question for everyone: Tomorrow should be in the mid-70s, daytime. Cold front coming in sometime Friday evening, I believe, with the Saturday high in the low 60s. Sunny both days and sunny into next week. This is northwest Alabama, where the temps are more like Tennessee than central Alabama.

I'm guessing we'll do the chainsaw work tomorrow and see how it goes.

This tree is more complicated than the pictures indicate, because another tree is growing out of the roots, so it'll require a tractor or dozer to hold the root system to keep the tree from rolling when the bottom section is cut away from the lower trunk.

Any final thoughts?

Thanks again.

Sheree


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Sheree said:


> Thanks. Alabama does have a law that requires frames be removable for inspections, but I'd like to think there's something in the rules that would allow time to safely move the feral colony into a hive at the best time to facilitate survival. At least that's my thinking. But I guess I could call and ask.



I couldn't find any specific language about moveable frames but did find this nugget. Sounds like you need a permit to move bees or comb within the state. 

Shipment, movement, etc., of used beekeeping equipment or appliances without permit from Commissioner of Agriculture and Industries.

It shall be unlawful to move, transport or ship any honeybees, combs or used beekeeping equipment or appliances without a permit from the Commissioner of Agriculture and Industries bearing the approval or countersignature of the State Apiarist. The permit must have been issued within the calendar year during which the movement or shipment is to be made; and, before such a permit is issued, the proposed movement of any honeybees or beekeeping equipment shall be in compliance with all conditions and requirements that may be set forth and prescribed therefor under rules and regulations adopted by the State Board of Agriculture and Industries for the prevention and the spread of contagious and infectious diseases of honeybees.

(Acts 1965, No. 794, p. 1488, §5.)



found Here: http://agi.alabama.gov/divisions/plant-protection/alabama-apiary-laws


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## Sheree (Sep 3, 2013)

Harley Craig said:


> I couldn't find any specific language about moveable frames but did find this nugget. Sounds like you need a permit to move bees or comb within the state.
> 
> Shipment, movement, etc., of used beekeeping equipment or appliances without permit from Commissioner of Agriculture and Industries.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I know we have strict rules about bringing hives into/out of/moving around for pollination purposes. But haven't heard of applying this to movement of a single colony (or nucs, which is very common). I've posted a question about this on my county's beekeeping association Facebook page. Alabama is so out of money that I'm not sure anyone will answer the phone if I try to call Montgomery and speak to someone in the apiary division.


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## Sheree (Sep 3, 2013)

John Davis said:


> Without seeing the situation you have several options. Cut the tree above and below the cavity and relocate the piece back home. Or do the cutout and take the box and frames home. In your location you probably still have the weather to be sucessfull. If the tree got pushed around a lot the combs may have been broken so the cutout may be a mess.


Broken comb is a big concern, along with fear that cutting out would be risky to the queen and brood at this time of year, whereas leaving the hive in the tree until Spring would be less risky. But I don't know, of course. Thanks for your feedback.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Sheree, here's the office and cell phone numbers from the bee inspector who looked at my bees last year. Real nice guy, answered a lot of my questions while inspecting: Wes Caudle, office (334) 240-7225, cell (334) 467-9408. He should be able to answer your questions. I know you can not move hives with comb into the state, never heard you need a permit to move within the state but seems plausible. Maybe for pollination so they know where the hives are, where they came from, etc.?


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)




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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"I'm a bit confused about your cutting guidance, if I go that route. When I think of Subway sandwiches, I see a long-wise cut down the length of the section that I separated out from the rest of the tree. Something that would let me open like a hot dog bun. Is that what you're talking about?"

The cut I use is a long wedge taken out of the top of the log by making two long parallel cuts along the top of the log. It is sometimes called a "U-cut" or "the old Subway bun cut". I posted a picture in a post just prior to this.

"Since I have no experience with a colony inside a tree, I fear cutting it open without severely damaging everything inside (including the queen, assuming she survived the crash and dozer pushing the tree around)."

These bees don't have a lot of good options. Try not to cut deeper than you have to. You are trying to cut through the wood not the comb. Be very careful. They are just bugs. You aren't.

"This tree is more complicated than the pictures indicate, because another tree is growing out of the roots, so it'll require a tractor or dozer to hold the root system to keep the tree from rolling when the bottom section is cut away from the lower trunk."

You and your dad be very careful.

"Any final thoughts?"

Hmm. Be careful. If all goes well, take pictures and talk about the excellent advice you got. If not, move along now.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

I would second riverderwind - That looks like maybe an oak and a section of that is going to be heavy. VERY possibly heavy. 

I would limb as much of it as possible to drop some weight off the top, have a good shape chain on that saw, and then start taken small sections off the top until I found bees/wax/honey. Then cut the base from the roots. Trees on the ground, in a pile, and maybe tangled in roots can be very dangerous to the sawyer. If you got chaps wear the hot buggers and think about the weight of each limb, if it is under pressure and if the tree or limb will move when you cut it or as it is almost cut. Barber chair splits are spooky.

If you have done lot of chainsawing, ignore this and be careful. If not, sometimes the risk is not worth the success. Sadly I know of more than one man that died from chainsaw accidents. And some spooks myself.

Be careful and good luck


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

To figure out where to "not cut" use a drill and a small but very long drill bit bit to "explore". 
Drill holes until you hit honey, mark where the colony is and cut around it. Otherwise you're hauling off a large chunk of wood.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> just curious what state considers a feral colony in a tree a managed hive? I think the only way he could get in trouble with it is if he moved it across county/ state lines without the proper permits


I agree. When he puts it in his apiary though it could be called a "managed hive". Never hurts to check with the inspector.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Sheree, how did it go?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I would cut the log, top and bottom, move it away from the pile and leave it as close to the location as you can in a upright position with a some type of cover. No inspector is going to harass you about rescuing a hive. Let the hive overwinter and if it is alive in the spring then worry about transporting it. Intervening by cutting the tree open this late in the season and disrupting the organized stores in the brood nest is the surest way to doom the hive. Good for you for caring enough about the bees and go for it.


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## Knobs (Sep 20, 2014)

If it was me I would let those bees be. Its not worth the effort. You have already said that you will need three people to make this work along with a piece of heavy equipment to hold the tree steady. In addition you have no idea if this colony is in good condition. The comb could be broken, the colony could have excessive varroa mites (and it probably does), etc. This hive could honestly be doomed to die already. If it is healthy your choices are to either do a late fall cutout or try to overwinter them in a section of the tree. Both these are possible but both of them probably have a 50/50 chance of succeeding at best. Either way at some point you will have to do a cutout which is a lot of work. The value of this colony with its low odds of survival doesn't justify the effort in my opinion. Also remember that the odds of your helpers getting stung are very high. Its one thing to put your self at risk but do you really want to do that to your father. Personally if I wanted another hive I would just make a split next spring. Much easier cheaper and the odds of success much better.


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## Sheree (Sep 3, 2013)

Update (pictures later)....

We delayed the cut-out / rescue attempt until Monday & Tuesday, October 19-20. Phase 1 went OK, but had to delay until Tuesday morning to finish opening up.

We ended up cutting two sections above the comb until we could see the comb. Then my dad cut out the semi-wedge type of section and I started cutting out comb. 

Alas, the hive was infested with more small hive beetles and SHB larvae than I've ever seen. Hundreds of visible SHB larvae and hundreds of SHBs crawling around. First I was trying to cut out the bad parts and separate and finally realized that it was an exercise in futility and too much of a risk to bring back to my apiary. Never got to the brood comb, which was apparently below the knot opening. It was going to be tricking to get that cut safely in that area below the know anyway, due to some barbed wire that had grown into the tree.

It broke my heart to leave the bees. I can't imagine how they've survived with all the SHB infestation, and I couldn't see how to get them to my place without bringing in bees on comb. I hope I made the wise decision.

It was OLD comb so the tree had been in use by some bees for a long time. Sweet gum.

Rather than leave everything open, I put all the comb back in, as best I could, except for one chunk that was heavily filled with SHB larvae and put the tree back together and leaned a board over the opened end. 

Called the landowner later and explained. He didn't know anything about SHB but said he has an empty hive and seems to want to go in and to try to get the hive himself. I dropped an extra veil off to use, if he does try to save them.

I'll post some pictures tomorrow.

The bees were surprising docile.


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## Sheree (Sep 3, 2013)

Deleted because this reply didn't appear in the right place in the thread.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Thank you for the update. C'est la bee.


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