# Help



## Curry (Sep 22, 2003)

The bees that are walking away from the hive (without deformaties) are full of Trachea mites. You'll notice that they will occasionally lift a wing so that the smaller "under" wing shows (they call this K-wing). My first guess is that you have italian bees, or an italian-derived race. Trachea mites can wipe out a hive, but most likely they won't. If you're not seeing any with deformed wings, then you have varroa under control. Once the new bees start replacing the old ones, you won't notice many trachea mite problems anymore.


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

carnica bee:

What are you "currently" doing for varroa mites? 
How did you treat for tracheal mites?

Indications of T-mites include:
1) Dwindling population
2) Weak bees crawling on ground w/ K-wings
3) Abandoned hive in spring w/ plenty of stores

To determine if you have T-mites, you must dissect bees or send a sample for testing.

Symptoms of varroasis are many and can be confused w/ other diseases, but include:
1) Disfigured, stunted adult bees, w/ deformed legs or wings or both.

MONITOR natural V-mite fall regularly (at least monthly) using Screened Bottom Board w/ Sticky Board. 

------------------
Dave W . . .

A NewBEE with 1 hive.
First package installed
April, 2003.


----------



## carnica bee (Jan 11, 2004)

Thanks for the reply Curry. I hope you are right.Dave I'm currently using apistan for my verroa problem. I never dealt with tracheal mites so I never had to treat them. I guess time will tell. Boy, what happened to the good old days......


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Sorry, Im having a problem w/ "currently".
As I look out my door at things ice-covered, its hard for me to imagine the "ideal" weather of Anaheim.









When using Apistan, the package states; "For best chemical distribution, use strips when daytime high temperatures are at least
50oF".

Today, Now, this very instant,







do you "currently" have Apistan strips in your hive?

If you think your bees are "sick", you could submit a sample NOW, and if your bees die, based on lab results, you might know why.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>The bees that are walking away from the hive (without deformaties) are full of Trachea mites. You'll notice that they will occasionally lift a wing so that the smaller "under" wing shows (they call this K-wing). 


Bingo, you got your diagnosis. Menthol or Formic acid, if you are allowed to use it, will take care of the problem. I have even heard that a scoup of lard/sugar on the top frames of you brood chamber season long will decrease your T mite problem. I have been doing it and my neigbous have been using it and it seems to work. Cheap, no residues, but not proven. Apperently it will block the mating cents of the T mites and the M and F cant find eachother.?? I dont really know

Ian


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

When I first started, I put grease patties on the hives all year round. Just something someone said I should do. I went three years before I lost my first hive. And thats with not alot of anything else other than fall feeding. Nothing scientific, but I feel there is something to the grease patties, and although not a big fan of the fogger, I do believe that oil/grease in some manner, goes a long way in the health of a hive. The crisco is suppose to mask the mites ability to select young bees, but perhaps it is rubbed on the bees and increases the cleansing effect also. Regardless of what the "truth" is, I have been putting the patties back in. Its a way of feeding if nothing else. It certainly can't hurt.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There is a good chance that whatever you do it will be too late. But the grease patties won't hurt (sugar and crisco mixed up like greasy icing). You could make an Oxalic Acid evaporator like BWrangler uses and fog them heavy with that.

The problem is they are infected with a virus by now and all of this may not help enough.


----------



## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Playing devil's advocate here: I read someplace--can't remember where--that grease patties attract SHB.


----------



## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

What ratio of crisco/sugar do you use? What cositancy(sp) if you do not measurements. I plan on using them this spring as a prevention.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Playing devil's advocate here: I read someplace--can't remember where--that grease patties attract SHB.

I have heard that too. But beehives attract SHB too.









I quite using them when I started fogging FGMO.
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000062.html 

Here's my recipe.

1 lb Crisco
3 lbs Granulated Sugar
25 drops of wintergreen oil.

You leave out the wintergreen oil, but it boosts their immune system and helps with the virus and does a bit more to cover the smell of young bees.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

You might also want to check out BWranglers recepie with the secret ingredent. (vitamin C) Go to his web site.
http://bwrangler.litarium.com/feeding-attractant/ 

Hope that works, favorites wouldn't let me copy and paste.


----------



## Terri (Apr 14, 2003)

Do you put the grase patties at the entrance, or inside the hive? 

I am interested in using them, also.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I put them on the top bars in the middle of the brood nest. It's the young nurse bees that the Tracheal mites are looking for and that is where they live.


----------



## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

The secret ingredient vitamin C doesnt help the bees to getting health. Vitamin C is citric acid and can be used to tread against Varroa like oxalic acid. It has the same effect but cost a lot more than OA. Citric acid has bin tested in Germany in the 90 with all the other natural acids (lactic acid, formic acid or oxalic acid). There is no harm to bees or anything else but Varroa dont like it.

Since Im on this forum I find out that some of you guys in the US put a lot of stuff in your colonies without knowing whether there is residues in honey or not. Some even have there secret in mixing different things together.

I think some using even untested or a high amount (overdosing) of permitted chemicals and has no possibilities to find out whats left in their honey or how it works on bees and mites. 
Whatever this people doing to their pets they should think about the product (honey) they are selling as food to other people! 

The Bee institute in Liebenfels Switzerland has a lot of test results available if someone is interested please go to there website. http://www.apis.admin.ch/deutsch/pdf/Varroa/oele_d.pdf 

I couldnt find the results in English, so if someone is interested I will try to translate the tabulations. 
On one of the tabulation you can see that Thymol kills 100% of the Varroa but can also kill (depend on the dosage) up to 95% of your bees. Thats with most of all medications they can help or destroy depended on the dosage. And who of us know what the right dosage is?

Michael I dont want to teach an old beekeeper but I think you can save the money for 1 lb Crisco 3 lbs Granulated Sugar. Wintergreen oil is one of only a few essential oils (from over 150 differed essential oils) with a good result in fight against any mites and your 25 drops of oil doing their work. 25 drops on a paper towel placed on top of the brood frames working well. Bees removing the paper after the oil are evaporated and it can be replaced if necessary.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael I dont want to teach an old beekeeper but I think you can save the money for 1 lb Crisco 3 lbs Granulated Sugar. Wintergreen oil is one of only a few essential oils (from over 150 differed essential oils) with a good result in fight against any mites and your 25 drops of oil doing their work. 25 drops on a paper towel placed on top of the brood frames working well. Bees removing the paper after the oil are evaporated and it can be replaced if necessary.

Some people use just the grease patties with good result, with no essential oils.

I haven't used the grease patties since I started fogging with the FGMO. I haven't had any apparent problems with Tracheal Mites since I started the FGMO and dropped the grease patties. So I'm not spending my money on that.

I believe the Oxalic also will kill the Tracheal mites? I fogged most of the hives in my back yard twice this fall with Oxalic Acid.


----------



## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

I am going to use the grease patties because I have not the money to buy a fogger. I only have 2 hives that on inspection a couple days ago were doing real well with plenty of stores to get them to spring each with a couple of frames of brood. I plan on doing my first splits mid March. I have Buckfast bees which are suppose to be T mite resistant. I had both of the hives on screen till early winter(after we had our first freeze). V mite counts have been real low. I am some what ashamed that I did not even try and look for T mites. They do seem to be in perfect health though. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Maple will be blooming in 2 to 3 weeks here and there is still pollen in the combs so I think I am save to say both of my hives have made it thru winter. Crisco and sugar will not hurt me if a little gets into the honey. I do not know if I can find the oils mentioned but will be looking( I hope they are cheap).


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The secret ingredient vitamin C doesnt help the bees to getting health. Vitamin C is citric acid and can be used to tread against Varroa like oxalic acid.

Bwrangler was using it to stimulate the bees' interest in pollen patties and pollen substitute.

>I do not know if I can find the oils mentioned but will be looking( I hope they are cheap).

I have not see wintergreen cheap. Peppermint and lemongrass are much cheaper. I bought my wintergreen online but the company since went out of business. 
http://www.naturesoils.com/essentialoils.htm http://www.eepl.com/mentholindia/p4.htm http://www.everydayhenna.com/index.html?oils.html 

and Clints hint from his forum entry for a "Honey Bee Healthy" like recipe:

"Essential Oils:

LorAnn Oils
4518 Aurelius Road
P.O. Box 22009
Lansing, Michigan 48909
(517) 882-0215
or toll free
1-800 248-1302
or by fax
(517) 882-0507
The last I purchased was Spearmint oil 1 ounce for $3.99 
Be sure to mention that you are a Beekeeper to get the cheaper prices. 
They seem to have it all in stock and a lot of great info on the oils used for beekeeping
Clint"


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>some of you guys in the US put a lot of stuff in your colonies without knowing whether there is residues in honey or not. Some even have there secret in mixing different things together.

I think some using even untested or a high amount (overdosing) of permitted chemicals and has no possibilities to find out whats left in their honey or how it works on bees and mites. 


Thats quite the conclusion. I doubt any country is excempt from the mishandling of tested and untested honeybee hive treatments, even Germany....


Ian


----------



## Gone2dlake (Jan 28, 2004)

You might check with your local or hometown pharmacy for the spearmint oil. Sometimes they can order certain oils is they don't have them on the shelf. I would recommend using a smaller pharmacy versus the big guys like Walgreens, etc. The small guys seem to have a little more time and would make the effort to get it. Just my thoughts though!

------------------


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I have never been to a health food store that didn't carry essential oils. It's a pretty good bet you can find them there too.


----------



## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Ian 
your absolutely right but we have a different system and rules. When we like to sell honey officially we have to sell it in a special jar with a ribbon. And we must be organist in a bee club the only way we can buy the ribbon from the Deutsche Imkerbund. 
Each beekeeper has the own serial number on the ribbons and the officials can easy find out where the honey comes from. This institute is making spot-checks every year from each bee club and we beekeeper have to send honey to there labs for all kinds of testing. They find out what kind and amount of chemicals are in honey and on the pollen tests they find out whether beekeeper selling there own or honey from oversea countries. Even if we selling oversea honey mixed in our jars we are in trouble.
We can buy oversea honey from supermarket but this stuff is in different jars. Not declared honey from the local beekeeper and even this honey need tests from government before selling in stores.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>like to sell honey officially we have to sell it in a special jar with a ribbon.
>>Each beekeeper has the own serial number on the ribbons and the officials can easy find out where the honey comes from

That is an interesting concept. It guarentees the public of a pureness, and a garenteed locally produced honey product. 
The honey I sell out of my honeyhouse does not have to be tested. The trust is in the hands of the beekeeper, and I feel Canadian beekeeper keep a very high standard and we promote the high integerty of our product. All the surplus honey I produce is sold to the local honey coop,BeeMaid honey. They test all honey shipped into them and are looking for Quality to which they pay me accordingly. All the honey is tested for antibiotic residues and if any such redidues are found in the honey, it is shipped back to me my expense. I cant tell you what the tolerances are for the residues, but I assure you, they are very sticky. 


>>we must be organist in a bee club 

This part of your statement is where you lost me. I assume you are meaning that you are producing your honey organically. It all makes sence if that is the case. Our organic producers have to follow much the same corse of scrutiny as you discribed, that is to be sure they are producing a turely organic product. 
And honestly, organic food production, is a load of crap. I am a farmer, and take great pride in the food I produce. Organic food promotion is but a slap in my face. 
Organic food is marketed with the false assumption that it is a "healthier" and a "safer" food. Hats off to the marketing commity for organic food. They have gotten everyone beleiving such the very fact, but in fact, they have no facts. There is no reputable scientific data which will back such a claim. 
Not only that, there is also the claim that organic production is healthier for the environment. Also a load of crap. It is truely an unsustainable form of agriculture, in food production terms. Land is farmed as it was back in the 30's, weed ridden and stripped of nutrients. Cattle go without vacinations or antibiotics treatment, which may lead to turely unhealthy unproductive contagious herds(I have seen what a unvacinated heard looks like. BVD will wipe out most of your calf crop leaving the survivors sickly). And beekeeping goes without bacterial disease contol. A very hard problem to remidy. Only an operation of very small scale can produce organically and not run into any of these problems. Anyhow,just my thoughts...

Ian

[This message has been edited by Ian (edited January 29, 2004).]


----------



## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

I think he means " we must organize a bee club in order to buy the ribbons "


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I thought the same as Ian, but Scott must be right. I think he means "And we must be ORGANIZED in a bee club(,) the only way we can buy the ribbon from the Deutsche Imkerbund." 

Hang in there Axtmann, you're doing something I can't. I still havent mastered one language yet.


----------



## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Ian
it is not aloud to sell the honey as an organic product because beekeepers have no control where bees getting the nectar from. Farmers spraying there fruit trees and there is always the possibility that bees bringing contaminated pollen in there hives.
If we would go for the crap organic we must guarantee that there is absolute no agriculture land or a settlement in a distant of I think at least 5 or more km. This is in Germany almost impossible.
We have very strong rules; whenever someone produces a food product he cant do it without the eyes of the government. 

>>>All the honey is tested for antibiotic residues and if any such redidues are found in the honey, it is shipped back to me my expense. I cant tell you what the tolerances are for the residues, but I assure you, they are very sticky.<<<

. I remember in the late 70 or early 80 arrived a whole shipload with tons of honey from somewhere in Kanada and failed the tests. There was almost no pollen and than they find out that most of this so-called honey was made from plain sugar. Some Kanadian commercial beekeeper was feeding hundreds or thousands of colonies with sugar and extracted the honey. The result . the officials here send the shipload back to the sender. 
The disaster was all over in the news and an excellent advertising for the local beekeepers. I still wonder who was eating this honey at the end?

Without the membership in a bee club no ribbons and no registration numbers. That mean nobody here can sell honey on a marked or official to people. It would bring you a court case within hours.
We have NO possibilities to use antibiotic against AFB. All antibiotics are prohibited in food production. Whatever you produce, cattle, chicken, eggs, pigs or honey. If a farmer needs medication for his sick animals the vet has to inspect it and there is no way to sell the meet until the vet give him the ok.

If I would use antibiotics and they would found it in my honey, there is no shipment back to me. I would end up in jail.


----------



## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Thanks Bill
Sometimes is hard for me. thinking and writing in a second language.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>> remember in the late 70 or early 80 arrived a whole shipload with tons of honey from somewhere in Kanada and failed the tests. There was almost no pollen and than they find out that most of this so-called honey was made from plain sugar. Some Kanadian commercial beekeeper was feeding hundreds or thousands of colonies with sugar and extracted the honey. The result . the officials here send the shipload back to the sender. 

Sounds like a good case of fraud to me. Those kind of beekeepers are a discrase to the beekeeping community. 

>>I still wonder who was eating this honey at the end?

The packer I send my honey to tests all honey comming in before further processing it. Are you saying there are honey packers out there who don't test their honey for impurities or adulteration? Somehow I doubt it. 

>>We have NO possibilities to use antibiotic against AFB. All antibiotics are prohibited in food production.

Antibiotics are prohibited in our food also, but that does not mean we cant use them. Strict guidelines are used and followed to minimize any residual anti or chem in our foods. And all of our govn't testing has shown to be ture. Our tolerances are accepted by all our trading partners, even Germany. And our food has been proven to be even a fraction of the tolerances allowable. 
My best dark (Buckwheat) honey is exported to Germany. I use Oxytetracyclen during the colony build up period to prevent AFB/EFB establishment. My honey has never been sent back, or even commented on antibiotic residues in it, because there is none...

>>If I would use antibiotics and they would found it in my honey, there is no shipment back to me. I would end up in jail.

Pritty extreem out there in Germany. 
My neighbours are from Holland. They come to Canada to farm, why? Too much burocratic crap. Happy to have them as neighbours.

Ian


----------

