# Horizontal Hives



## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Michael,
Thanks for the pictures. As soon as it warms up enough for me to work in the garage, I plan on building a 3-wide deep box hive to try the 2-queen setup (brood chambers on ends, honey supers stacked in the middle). 

Generally, I like the idea of modular, standard-sized, interchangeable hive equipment such that each component could be used in combination with each other component. The logical progression of this would be LEGO like hive components (like sides, bottom, tops, frames) that can be "snapped" together in different configurations. Don't know enough about the wood working and costs factors, to say whether or not this is feasible.

I may try to build 3 X standard-sized deep boxes with removable long sides for the 2-queen hive experiment. The inner-sides would be replaced with a queen excluder "side". After the experiment, I could then split the configuration back into 3 stand-alone hives.

I would also like to make a bottom board that would allow any one side to be opened/used as the entrance/exit. Any ideas how to do this and still have a stable base for the hive?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Generally, I like the idea of modular, standard-sized, interchangeable hive equipment such that each component could be used in combination with each other component. The logical progression of this would be LEGO like hive components (like sides, bottom, tops, frames) that can be "snapped" together in different configurations. Don't know enough about the wood working and costs factors, to say whether or not this is feasible.

It's a nice idea but for me, anything that eliminates more than half of my lifting supers is worth not being modular.

>I may try to build 3 X standard-sized deep boxes with removable long sides for the 2-queen hive experiment. The inner-sides would be replaced with a queen excluder "side". After the experiment, I could then split the configuration back into 3 stand-alone hives.

Structurally, I don't think it can be done with a removable side, but you can cut a groove and make a slide in partition out of 1/4" laun to divide them or open them up and a queen excluder partition (buy a bound queen excluder, which will be the right length, and cut the witdh to fit from the top of the hive to a groove in the bottom board.


>I would also like to make a bottom board that would allow any one side to be opened/used as the entrance/exit. Any ideas how to do this and still have a stable base for the hive?

I've thought of several. The simplest is to just make the three box long box deep enough that it doesn't need a bottom board and put #8 hardward cloth on the bottom. Then make whatever kind of entraces you want in the box itself. These could be holes the right size for a cork that is used to plug them. 1 1/2" diameter would be nice (on the big side) but you could even put three in a row if you need smaller holes for the corks available. You could cut nice square entrances in the wood and put a sqare piece of wood in to close it, or you could make a disk that rotates to close it or you can even buy the ones made for a nuc (see www.beeworks.com or www.betterbee.com). 

Another is to build a bottom board that is three boxes long and use 3/4" stock to make entrance blocks to block it. You could just have support at both ends or you could put a 3/4" support every 16 1/4" on the long side. They could be just a few inches long leaving an opening the rest of the way.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>I would also like to make a bottom board that would allow any one side to be opened/used as the entrance/exit. Any ideas how to do this and still have a stable base for the hive?


Go to the bottom of this page, click on Beesorce.com, on the left hand side where it says Plans "Build It", click , and select double screen board.

This is how I would build it without the second screen, and I would add two rails along the bottom of the two long sides with a lengthwise notch to add a tray for inspections and to seal it off for the winter.

I would also consider not having an opening on the side that I planned to work the hive from.


----------



## Kansas Volunteer (Dec 11, 2003)

Michael, how about some good old fashioned academic "compare and contrast" of your thoughts on hive design, and the Dartington hive:
http://mysite.freeserve.com/longdeephive 

or the horizontal hive at the Rupert's Honey site from ZA, which I don't have a link for right now.

The horizontal hive concept is getting real interesting to me in all ways, not just top bar hives, as my back is starting to have a lot of problems.

Working on a waist-high horizontal hive would be a lot easier than the alternatives.

David S.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, how about some good old fashioned academic "compare and contrast" of your thoughts on hive design,

My first horizontal hive was a 48 3/4" long standard deep. I built it somewhere in the late 70's for an old lady with a bad back and a love for bees. I was young and had a strong back so I didn't bother with one for me.

>and the Dartington hive:

This is simply the same concept with standard british equipment. He uses the deepest standard size frame available in a trough hive arrangment. The American equivelant would be Dadant Deeps in a trough hive with standard Deeps the next choice. http://mysite.freeserve.com/longdeephive 

>or the horizontal hive at the Rupert's Honey site from ZA, which I don't have a link for right now.
http://www.rupertshoney.co.za/rh/index.htm 

This design is a similar concept with a few variations to keep the price down and to handle agressive african bees.

First it has a solid top bar. This works better with aggressive bees. You could get a similar result by using 1 x 4's to make an inner cover where you only uncover the section you wish to examine, but you could also make your own frames with a 1 3/8" x 3/8" x 19" top bar and drill holes to put the ears of the end bars in (square peg in a round hole stays pretty good) from a standard Langstroth frame and cut the corner off of a 3/4" board to make a 
"V" shaped bottom for the top bar to center the comb. Rupert's were trying to make it with available stock so they used dowels for the sides and bottom. The advatage of the dowels is two fold. First, price/availablitly, but second the bees will attach more comb to it than a flat side and bottom bar. A triangle peak serves the same purpose. It is a very nice design. For reasons of standards and availability, I would just use standard frames and 1 x 4 bars for inner covers or make top bars and put standard style end bars on with an angled bottom bar. A lot of bee equipment companies will sell just end bars if you call them. If you want to encourage more attachments on the side bars you could either groove them and run molen wax down the groove with a "wax tube fastener" (see Walter T. Kelly) or put some blank starter strip in the groove and wax it or cut a triangular piece and add it to the side bars.

>The horizontal hive concept is getting real interesting to me in all ways, not just top bar hives, as my back is starting to have a lot of problems.

Me too.

>Working on a waist-high horizontal hive would be a lot easier than the alternatives.

One choice is to put it at waist level. Another is to just have a stool or a toolbox that is used as a stool or an old deep box on it's side to sit on.

I've done both. They are equally easy to work. Of course it's easier to build it and takes less material to set on the ground, but it's better protected from skunks and 'possums when it's up in the air a bit.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you look at my long hive, I did a table for the base. This has some advantages but takes more material to make a table. If you just put legs on a hive it uses the sides of the hive to span the distance. If you build a table you have to make the table strong enough to hold the weight.

If I were doing it again, I think I'd make it either eight feet long or ten feet long just because it gives me a lot of options. You could then use a semi-horizontal arrangement.

Let's try some possibilities. If you put a three box long medium box on it and set it back about 14" or so from the front of the table you have room to stack some boxes (that stick out just a little on the front) on the front. If you have your brood nest in the front and another medium on the front for more brood area you can set this box in front when working it. You have room to put supers on the back of the three box long trough and when they are full or partly full you can stack them behind the three box long hive. If you want to use a triangular bee escape you can set it behind that fourth box and stack supers on it. This saves having to stack them off and then restack them on the escape.

I think ideally it's nice to be able to set boxes off onto the front. Set boxes off to the back for supers. Set them one more box to the back for someplace to work or use a bee escape and still have room for spare equipment behind that. If you go with a three box long core that is seven boxes long counting the spare equipment which is 113 and 3/4". You can get seven boxes in 120" (10 feet) with a little extra room to work. In eight feet you can only get six (by doing an overhang of a couple of inches on the temporary stack on the front and the spare equipment on the back).

But if you go a deeper and shorter core, like two boxes long and deeps or dadant deeps, then you would need one or two less boxes wide (five or six instead of seven) and eight feet would work pretty well.

Then you wouldn't need another box on the brood chamber so you don't need room in the front to put that. You have one less box wide to start with (so you're two boxes shorter) and you can set supers on the back and restack them behind that and extra equipment behind that making five boxes long. So you have a little more room for equipment on the back.

As you can see, though, there are lot's of possible combinations.

If you have things arranges so that you don't have to lift much, then the only disadvantage I've seen to having them up higher is that lids blow off easier when they are up higher than when they are down lower. When I have to put a concrete block on the hive, it's more lifting again.


----------



## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

I am going to build a couple of TBHs. I am going to put holes in the bars for upper movement and supering. I also have plans for a long hive(do not know if it will get done by spring). I have a stool for use with my long style hives. I am going to use the hives on legs. The botom is going to be built on with a screen with holes drilled for entrences with disc to close. I will have 2 of these hives next to each other with just enough room to work between them. I put one of my hives on concrete blocks were you have to bend down some or sit on my stool. The supers when placed on it were at waist high perfect for lifting. My thought was to keep a inner cover over the front of the hive were the broodnest should be with a bee escape. The rest to the hive would have bound queen excluders to keep the same hieght. When I place suppers on the hive it will be 4 at a time but the bees will not be able to get in half of them since it is going to be 2 hives long. The empties will be easy to move so that any full supers can be placed over the bee escape. But since reading what has been said here I may go with 3 hives long. In that case you would move one empty and place the full ones over the escape. This is going to have some moving of supers to get to the brood but it should be moving empties and an inner covers mostly. I have no plans on leaving honey on the hives long. I plan on extracting as soon as it is capped within reason. I really have another season to decide on the long hives since I will not be able to make enough splits this year and get some honey. The TBHs are going in first.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've hinted at the concept above, but let's clarify it. Another variation of a long hive is an "L" hive. It's not horizontal or vertical, but a little of both. The concept, from my point of view, is twofold. 

First, to get the brood chamber in the front of the hive with no supers (or no more than one super) over the brood and long enough that a stack of supers on the back won't be over any brood. That way the brood chamber is accessible without moving a lot of supers.

Second, the hive needs to be long enough to have all the stores for the winter in one box.

For Dadant Deeps I'm making this two boxes long, so I can have 11 frames in the front for brood and I can stack supers on the back half. I put it on a three box long bottom board, so I can also set supers behind so it doesn't get as tall.

I have done the same with deeps, but maybe three boxes long would be better with deeps. Either two or three could work, but with two you would have to work more at keeping the supers behind the two box long box, because the brood nest will probably expand past 11 frames.

I also did a couple of three box long medium hives. This is the minimum for overwintering on mediums and I stack the supers on the back box.

Of course, by simply using a different sized cover and smaller width boxes for supers, you have total control over the amount you lift. You can also maintain a standard sized frame throughout. For instance, you could do all deeps in a double box and use all 5 frame deep nucs for supers. That way you could put a stack of them on the back of the two box wide deep and it will leave 16 frames free in front for an accessable brood nest and you can make another stack behind the double when the 5 frame nucs get too high. Now you only have to lift a 45 pound (deep 5 frame nuc) super that is close to your body and easy to manage and all your frames are the same size. You could do something similar with Dadant deeps and four or five frame nucs for supers. You could do mediums and either use 10 frame boxes (because they are standard) or 8 frame boxes (because they are lighter) or 5 frame boxes, if you need to keep the weight down even more. A five frame medium nuc full of honey weighs only 30 pounds.

What do you all think of an "L" hive?


----------



## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Michael and Everyone,

For beekeepers who don't want to experiment with a top bar hive, it's the best idea yet. The equipment is standardized. Management is flexible. And with a cloth inner cover, the bees should be as easy to work as with a top bar hive.

It's on my to build list for this spring.

Michael, do you manage them differently than with a more vertical hive? Any interesting observations?

Regards 
Dennis


----------



## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

This sounds real interesting, I think I am going to try to build one or two this Spring. I like the idea of using 4 or 5 frame deep boxes as supers to standardize the frames and yet be able to lift a super without having to remove frames.

------------------
Rob Koss


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, do you manage them differently than with a more vertical hive?

Not particularly. If I don't have enough frames of honey to fill the box going into winter, of course I fill them from the front to back as far as they go. The bees seem to handl this ok. But then I've only run these for two winters and so far they've been relatively mild. We did have a few days below zero about a week ago, but all in all it's been fairly nice for winter. An occasional day warm enough to fly has helped too, I'm sure. I am curious how they will do in a really bad long winter, but am willing to wait for one to find out.









>Any interesting observations?
You have several choices of managment style. You can try to just keep them all in one horizontal box and rob it more often in a flow. Or you can just add supers on the back of the hive like you'd add them on top of any hive. I don't like an excluder, although you could make a groove and slide one in somwhere, so you have to put a full comb of capped honey to define the back of the brood nest. Of course I try to let them do that themselves, but if the queen is making forays back further than you want you may need to consolidate the brood nest again. I haven't had a lot of trouble with this though.

All in all I haven't seen any big differences. The bees seem plenty willing to expand horizontally and the cluster seems willing to move horizontally in the winter.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

To bring this up to date, now that I have five horizontal hives going, I have had problems with swarming when trying to get them to fill a three box long horizontal hive. I have to move some honey to the back and put in empty frames in or put some supers on top of the brood to keep them busy storing honey there. Otherwise they will swarm before 20 frames are filled in the horizontal box. I still like them the best and they have acutally done the best, but they seem to take a bit different managment to get them to do well. 

I still try to minimize lifting and height. You can still stack the full supers on the back (so you don't have to move them every time you want in the brood chamber) and full frames of honey to the back to make room to get them to expand the brood nest.


----------



## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Michael and Everyone,

I agree with your observations. Bees will work horizontally for awhile, but vertical manipulations allow for more management/production options.

Maybe a hive with a deeper frame would offset some of those limitations.

My long hive has completely out produced my standard hives. But now it's almost as tall as my standard hives. The hive is essentially 3 1/2 deeps high and two deeps wide. So it's as much vertical as horizontal right now.

Regards
Dennis
With a long and tall hive :> )


----------



## drgraham (Mar 17, 2009)

*New Questions on horizontal hive thread after a loooong search...help w an "L" hive*

Soon to be very new "beekeeper" here who has been studying hard to get ready for my first late april bees...i want a more natural, easy to manage hive and i love your ideas, especially a horizontal or "L" hive but i could very much use some of your wisdom...pardon if the questions sound inexperienced & obvious

-have you ever converted 2-3 standard deep or medium hives into one long hive (i have some new and old boxes) & if so how? or would it be best just to have someone build one for me (i'm not handy but have a friend who is)
-if i have 3 boxes on one bottom board, can you tell me the best places to put the entrance(s)
----what would be the best way to create an outer cover/inner cover?
----the best way to feed (baggie in a super)?
----best dimensions & top for a table to accomplish what you (michael) described in this thread

thanks for any info yall can share, 

deborah in texas


----------



## rw3212 (Apr 8, 2008)

*confused*

MB:
When you talk about (front and rear) of the longhive what are you actually referring to? Maybe I'm just dense but I only see right and left, unless you are working from an end and not the side as I invision. As you can tell I am totally unfamiliar with this, but am planning a longhive for this spring.


----------



## Jorn Johanesson (Mar 30, 2005)

rw3212 said:


> MB:
> When you talk about (front and rear) of the longhive what are you actually referring to? Maybe I'm just dense but I only see right and left, unless you are working from an end and not the side as I invision. As you can tell I am totally unfamiliar with this, but am planning a longhive for this spring.


I saw a long hive in Romania with dadant frames, and they were worked from the side. I see a drawback in that because you have to twist your body to lift the frames out. I think it is the same with the tbh.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>-have you ever converted 2-3 standard deep or medium hives into one long hive (i have some new and old boxes) & if so how? or would it be best just to have someone build one for me (i'm not handy but have a friend who is)

It's the walls between that are a problem. It's not very practical. It's much easier to build the box the way you want it.

>-if i have 3 boxes on one bottom board, can you tell me the best places to put the entrance(s)

They don't seem to want to move easily from one box to the next with the walls between. I'd build one long box. The entrance can be anywhere. I prefer the top at one end as I can then add supers, if I want, and they will then come in the top of the super if I move the entrance up:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/LongHiveSupered.JPG

>----what would be the best way to create an outer cover/inner cover?

Anything big enough will work, but I like using standard migratory covers on my long hives as they are standard and I don't have to expose the whole hive at one time when working it.

>----the best way to feed (baggie in a super)?

If you have a long hive that takes standard frames, you can use a frame feeder or a top feeder or a baggie feeder.

>----best dimensions & top for a table to accomplish what you (michael) described in this thread

I gave up on the table because of our high winds. It would probably work well in places where you don't get such high winds. I made the table long enough to be able to set boxes behind so I wouldn't have to bend over, while working it. So mine where, if I remember right, about five feet long.

>When you talk about (front and rear) of the longhive what are you actually referring to?

The front is where the entrance is. The rear is opposite the entrance.

> Maybe I'm just dense but I only see right and left, unless you are working from an end and not the side as I invision.

I work it from the side, yes.

> As you can tell I am totally unfamiliar with this, but am planning a longhive for this spring. 

Here's my more current version:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm


----------



## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

I've been reading a lot of info on these hives most thanks to BWrangler. I'm going with a medium depth 3 length design. I really wanted to go with deep but just starting out I decided I will standardize now before I regret it.

I like the idea of using the nucs for supers with the deep frames. This is how I would have done it as well.

Plan is to run it as a tbh in the brood chamber. Top bars will be self spacing and will drop in to a standard medium flush with regular frames.

Interesting ability to add what you need. Running out of room for brood, toss a box on top of there. More honey, a box over there. I'm going to try two towers of supers one will be straight top bars the other will be frames. Curious to see how they will react.

You mentioned a collapse Michael, you were supering with a 3 box body. Have you had problems with a just a 3 box body collapsing. Maybe it would be wise to run a cable across the middle to keep this from happening?

Covers!!!! Tell me does it rain where you guys are? I'm thinking about 3 migratory type covers but how do you keep them from leaking in between?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Have you had problems with a just a 3 box body collapsing.

With deeps and only top bars, yes.

> Maybe it would be wise to run a cable across the middle to keep this from happening?

Or go shallower. I don't see how a cable will work unless you do frames, in which case it won't be a problem.

>Covers!!!! Tell me does it rain where you guys are?

Yes.

> I'm thinking about 3 migratory type covers but how do you keep them from leaking in between?

The bees take care of that. And even if they do, you overestimate it as a problem.


----------



## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

Michael Bush said:


> Year before last I did the ones in the first set of pictures. They were Deeps with mostly starter strips and a few top bars that I was harvesting for comb honey. The top bars worked fine in that hive, but collapsed when I did an entire two box wide box of them.


Can you explain what collapsed? Was it the top bars or the deeps?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The top bars were in a double wide deep box. In other words one with the dimensions such that it could take Langstroth deep frames. But it had only top bars in it. One hot day they all went down like a row of dominoes. One fell which hit the next and it fell and hit the next...

It's the COMBS that collapsed.


----------



## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

Ok I thought it was the body that collapsed. If you ran top bar/frame/top bar/etc. would this make it less likely that a collapse would knock everything down? Would the bees still draw on the top bars if there was foundation on the frames?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Foundation would not help at all. It would, in fact, contribute to collapse since there is no frame to help. The bees with foundation sometimes won't start at the very top and will build a comb that is not well attached and just hanging from the foundation at the top.

My solution was two experiments that did very well. One was the KTBH with the sloped sides the comb seems more stable and better attachments for the weight. The other was a medium depth top bar hive. With less depth I did not have collapses either.


----------



## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

Good to know. I'm going with the medium as well and I believe I read your sucess with that elsewhere. I'm buying nucs (apparently they are going to be deeps) and will introduce them supered on the hive probably with a queen excluder (after the queen starts laying in the bottom) to get them to move down and stay down. I will close the entrance from the nuc as well so they will have to go throught the long hive to get out. I guess I could just remove it or leave it on as a honey super. Versatile hives.

Do you use a follower board in your long hives or just let them go at it? Mine will be 3 long, medium frames.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you use a follower board in your long hives or just let them go at it? Mine will be 3 long, medium frames. 

I've done two things, neither is a follower, but that's a good idea.

I've put them in the long hive and let them go and that works.

I've put them in a five frame nuc, then an eight frame box, then a ten frame box and then the long hive (all at the same location of course).


----------



## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

Construction is underway. Got sidetracked and started building some Warre equipment at the same time (won't have bees until end of april). Hoping to find some #8 screen in town. 
Do you use SBB in your long hives?
I built pretty much to BWranglers specs for his long hive and will be making top bars to fit regular flush with regular frames.
Entrances where should they go? The plans have entrances at both ends pros/cons?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you use SBB in your long hives?

I did on some and not on some. I don't think it make much difference as long as you have a tray. If you don't have something to block the wind, I think it's a huge disadvantage as they can't keep it warm or cool.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm#ventilation

>Entrances where should they go? The plans have entrances at both ends pros/cons?

Assuming you can and do block them when appropriate I guess it doesn't matter. I prefer a top entrance on one end as I can reroute the bees through a super if I like and the top entrance helps with skunks and mice. Both ends has had the problem, at least for me, where the bees are all at one end and they are being robbed from the other end and don't know it.


----------



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

I have been considering building a long hive along the lines of the BWrangler design but composed of two standard deep Langstroth boxes (9 1/8”) placed side by aide with either 3/8” slots or ¾” holes cut through both interior ‘walls’ to allow the bees to freely pass from one chamber to the other. My reasons for doing this are to have the flexibility to run this as a 2-queen or a single queen hive (and it also seems easier to modify 2 standard hive bodies by drilling holes rather than building a single 32 ½” wide box.

I was also planning on inserting a ½” divider between the two hive bodies to provide the flexibility of leaving the holes fully open for a single-queen hive, inserting a double queen excluder to run as a 2-queen hive, or blocking off the holes to run as two separate hives.

I’ve got two questions for those with experience with these double wide hives:

1/ will a single queen pass across holes through 2” total of interior wood wall so that this hive will function as a typical unlimited brood hive with a single queen, or will the interior wall even with large holes prove to be enough of a barrier that the queen will remain in only one of the 2 brood chambers?

2/ Any thoughts on whether 3/8” slots or holes would be better and if holes, what size?

A single 32 ½” or 33” box with a central follower board/divider that can either be completely removed or replaced with a double queen excluder would obviously provide me the flexibility I am looking for, and if the queen is unlikely to move from one brood chamber to the next through the tunnels I am planning, I may have to bite the bullet and go that route.

Any thoughts appreciated, especially from MB who advised earlier in this thread against using two standard deeps side by side to form a double wide (though perhaps not with the holes I am planning).

-fafrd


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I tried putting boxes side by side with communication underneath, and that did not work well. I tried putting a queen excluder vertically in the center so I could make sure the brood wasn't under my supers, and they would not cross the excluder. Since they would not cross with that much communication, I doubt they will go through your slots or holes. One large box works pretty well. Any excuse for them not to expand horizontally may be too much of a reason for them not to.


----------



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Michael,

Thanks for the reply. So it sounds like communication underneath and/or a few holes along the bottom is not likely to work. Do you think it would be worth trying holes along the top and sides, and if so, would you have any views on what size holes to try? One of the thoughts I had was that by cutting 3/8” slots down the sides and along the top, you are essentially turning the inner ‘wall’ into a pattern which is pretty similar to a central frame made out of wood.

Also, from your comment on using an excluder, it sounds like you had only a single queen and by definition she was unable to cross, so your comment must be referring the worker bee traffic across the excluder – did the bees completely ignore the half of the box on the other side of the excluder? 

Your final comment that ‘Any excuse for them not to expand horizontally may be too much of a reason for them not to’ sounds like it means that my idea to experiment with a single double-box setup to try both a 2 queen hive and (eventually) a single-queen horizontal hive may be misguided.

I want to try a two-queen set-up first (a modified version of yours – I will use only two deeps for the two queens covered by three 6-frame deep nucs over queen excluders – the central nuc allows additional worker bee traffic between the two sides) and I will probably put some holes and/or slots in the central walls before hand so that if I decide the two-queen set-up is too complicated (or when I get around to experimenting with the single queen horizontal hive) I can understand if the single queen passes around just as she would if the central divider was just another frame or not.

Any further thoughts appreciated…

-fafrd


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Also, from your comment on using an excluder, it sounds like you had only a single queen and by definition she was unable to cross, so your comment must be referring the worker bee traffic across the excluder – did the bees completely ignore the half of the box on the other side of the excluder?

Yes, they ignored the other half of the box.

>Your final comment that ‘Any excuse for them not to expand horizontally may be too much of a reason for them not to’ sounds like it means that my idea to experiment with a single double-box setup to try both a 2 queen hive and (eventually) a single-queen horizontal hive may be misguided.

Two queens will give them a reason to be in both sides and may work quite well. Mine had no queen on the other side and that was the problem with getting them over there. But I am saying the more communication there is horizontally the better.

>I can understand if the single queen passes around just as she would if the central divider was just another frame or not.

The queen will not easily cross any perceived barrier to the brood nest being one consolidated whole. People often build queen discouragers with plywood with holes in the corners or turn excluders sideways because that is enough to keep the queen from moving up even though she can get through if she wants to.


----------



## raosmun (Sep 10, 2009)

All have been very interesting/informational reading!! I am building 2 long deep langs. 48" long depth to suit whatever frames or just topbars X 19". Since frames are 1" so are my homemade topbars and foundation(less) frames and will use 3/8" spacers. To super simply remove X? number of spacers or intermix standard frames and use 3/16" spacers were they contact the orher arrangement. Three section top cover. I used 7 ply exterior. For the bottom board I used 2X4s (on edge) X (allouwed for a landing), inside dimention same as that of the ID of the lang., stapled on screen, then nailed it down with a 1 1/2 X 3/4 strip, beveled outer 3/4" for rain run off, cut a 1/4" X 1/4" length dato for a inspection sheet/closure, under the 3/4" landing, put in 3 cutdown 2 Xs cross braces below the dato and split the inspection sheet in two sections allowing the center cross brace to hold the split. Legs could be added, I plan to use blocks.
:scratch: Any suggestions/method for transfering an established stacked lang. into the long or just do a split?


----------



## Milan-Slovakia (Sep 30, 2009)

http://nasapravda.blogspot.com/2009/12/horizontalny-ul-b-ttbh.html


----------



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Michael,

Thanks for the clarification. So it sounds like while my idea for a two-queen hive might possibly work, it’s unlikely to function well as a long hive (and as a two-queen hive only, there’s probably no need to mess around with the slots and the vertical excluders, since there will already be excluders up to a common super above).

This exchange has helped me realize that a single double-wide box is fundamentally more flexible than a pair of standard deeps (except for things like moving the hive, using the parts in standard Langstroth configurations, etc…), and so I’m now thinking about building my own double-wide box.

I have to admit that a secondary motivation I had for using a pair of modified standard deeps is that I’ve never built a hive box from scratch before, and I can much more easily cut holes and slots in an off-the-shelf deep box than I can make box joints or precision cuts.

From your website, it sounds like you’ve built a lot of equipment over the years. For a double-wide box like this, do you think I need to worry about box joints or would rabbet joints be good enough or could I even go without any fancy joints and just cut the boards to the appropriate lengths?

Also, if I was going to try a two-queen configuration in this double-wide box, would you have any opinion on whether there would be any advantage to using a double vertical excluder as a divider or would a solid divider be just as good (again, with a 6 frame deep super over a horizontal excluder centered on the divider). I guess what I am hoping to achieve is two half-clusters centered on the divider as opposed to two separated clusters with 10 frames of honey between them, as you suggested in your configuration.

-fafrd


----------



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Milan-Slovakia,

Thanks for the link to the web-site. It is fascinating and makes me wish I knew how to read Slovakian! (In fact, I may need to try one of those web-based translation programs to try to decode some of the description).

Can you tell me if the configuration shown, with the central divider that appears to be a double queen excluder, is used for two-queen hive? If so, this is similar to what I want to do and I am very interested in any other advice you can share. For example, in this configuration (assuming two queens), do the two queens form a single cluster centered on the divider (one half of a spheroid on either side of the divider) or do the two queens form distinct and separated clusters?

If the central divider is not meant to keep two queens separated and this hive is not designed for a two-queen configuration, I would appreciate anything you can tell me regarding the purpose of this central partition.

-fafrd


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>From your website, it sounds like you’ve built a lot of equipment over the years.

Yes.

> For a double-wide box like this, do you think I need to worry about box joints or would rabbet joints be good enough or could I even go without any fancy joints and just cut the boards to the appropriate lengths?

Mine are all butt joints put together with wood screws, but a rabbet would work fine.

>Also, if I was going to try a two-queen configuration in this double-wide box, would you have any opinion on whether there would be any advantage to using a double vertical excluder as a divider or would a solid divider be just as good (again, with a 6 frame deep super over a horizontal excluder centered on the divider). I guess what I am hoping to achieve is two half-clusters centered on the divider as opposed to two separated clusters with 10 frames of honey between them, as you suggested in your configuration.

I think communication is important and an excluder will allow more that than a solid divider. My plan for a two queen hive is here:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestwoqueenhive.htm

Which ends up with brood and queen at each end and honey in the center and supers on top of that queenless center.

Long hive here:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm


----------



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Michael,

Thanks for the advice - butt joints it is then! (or maybe rabbets if I am feeling ambitious)

I’ve reviewed your double queen hive plan and appreciate the input that excluders will allow better communication than a solid divider, so I’ll plan to go that direction as well.

I understand that your two-queen design creates a queenless center for honey and supers above and I have other questions about 2 queen hives that I would appreciate your opinion on, but given that this thread was on horizontal hives, I’ll put those question in a separate thread so we don’t confuse the subject. 

-fafrd


----------



## shadetreebeeman (Dec 4, 2009)

I read an artical about Condos for Bees in BEECULTURE Mar. 91 about doublewide hives . 20 frames wide single wide honey suppers three hive covers 2 to 3 times honey production by Albert E Carl plans by Al Loy.I have not tried it yet but I built one today .Just waiting for spring .:waiting:


----------



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

shadetreebeeman,

I sure would love to see a copy of that article. Was it for a 2-queen hive? Is that what ‘condos’ is referring to? If the hive generates 2-3 times the honey production of a standard hive, it sounds like a 2-queen hive…

I was planning to use triple 6-frame deep nucs as supers with possibly single wide medium or shallow supers on top of that depending on how things go, so except for the narrower supers, this sounds close to what I was planning. Don’t really understand your reference to ‘three hive covers’ – what’s the third one for?

Would love to see the plans you used and if you can send me a picture of the set-up, you have built you will be my hero!

-fafrd


----------



## Paraplegic Racehorse (Jan 25, 2007)

Some of you may be interested in the following:

The first link send you to a Google SERP (translated to English) with plenty links to the Golz and Bremer type two-chamber horizontal hives.

Google-translated search results, term "lagerbeute"

This second links to a SERP (translated to English) with plenty links to more traditional horizontal framed hives, as still fairly commonly found in Denmark and other areas.

Google-translated search result, term "trogbeute"

(as a point of interest, digging through these links will eventually produce a link to some great pictures and even construction plans for the hinterbehandlungsbeuten - a rear access hive which is very iconic to German beekeepers and is still in use today, though popularity is waning in favor of stackable hive systems)


----------



## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

Michael

You are the most even handed, generous and encouraging contributor here.

Thanks


----------

