# EFB or PMS



## Brooksville (Feb 27, 2016)

We had a hard freeze 10 days ago and lost a good hive. I has suspicions that it may have had EFB. I read some comments and some said that it may have been PMS. Either way, we have 1 deep and 5 mediums of drawn comb. What do we do with the comb? Is it reusable? Do we need to clean it or just add it to hives as needed? Thanks for the reply.

John


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

What indications lead you to believe either conditions? Having proof of either or both will determine what course of action to take. Multiple high resolution pictures of the brood area would be helpful for us to maybe diagnose the hive...


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## Brooksville (Feb 27, 2016)

Spotty brood. Yellow dead brood. The hard freeze killed them. The brood nest we void of any nectar. They had 3 frames over head they could not reach. I was going to request but they does on me while queen was in transit.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

I would send samples of the larvae/comb into the Beltsville lab to determine what you do with the comb. It's kind of early to have PMS, but I wouldn't discount it.
https://www.ars.usda.gov/northeast-...search-laboratory/docs/how-to-submit-samples/


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

I would google terms like efb vs pms frame pictures and see if you can find websites that show side be side pics.

Looking for bees with deformed wings dead or alive might be useful.


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## Brooksville (Feb 27, 2016)

Let's just assume that it is EFB. What can we do with frames?


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

>Let's just assume that it is EFB. What can we do with frames?

I would not use them. I would melt the wax and blazed/torch out all the equipment.

"The bacteria that causes EFB does not produce spores, but combs contaminated with the bacteria can still reinfect honey bees in subsequent years."

source: http://articles.extension.org/pages...a-bacterial-disease-affecting-honey-bee-brood


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Well, in this situation, EFB needs to be eradicated from the hive and equipment. Just like Eduardo said, removing all bee related product from the hive equipment and scorching the boxes and frames either thrown away or soaked in bleach or peroxide. Bleach is cheaper than peroxide, and some people think it won't do the job anyways. Your better off getting new frames.

My 2nd year of keeping, I ended up getting nucs infected with EFB. 2 months after receiving them, they showed signs of EFB. Initially, in my ignorance, I thought it was PMS. I lost all 12/12 hives by fall since I never treated them for EFB and did not get the PMS taken care of either. LAst year, year 3, I reused this same equipment with a different source of bees. 4-6 hives presented with EFB symptoms. I knew something was awry. I took a gamble at the time and use Terramycin to treat them. Lo' and behold, the symptoms went away and they were back to kicking butt.

If I had done my due diligence my 2nd year, I would not have had the same problem my 3rd year. I reused infected equipment and got setback because of it. I also lost the ability for any honey harvesting potential from those hives, too. Nip your infected apiary in the butt and don't let it haunt you in the proceeding years!


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

if it's efb or afb you MUST burn the hives, have a nice big bonfire for a day.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

DavidZ said:


> if it's efb or afb you MUST burn the hives, have a nice big bonfire for a day.


Misinformation again! 
Are your little one line quips intended to misinform others ?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Agree strongly with clyderoad. EFB responds well to OxyTet. You do have your veterinarian on speed dial? 

(Just kidding, as I told my state apiarist, there MIGHT be something in my freezer) My yard will get used for a Vet training in June.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Andrew Dewey said:


> EFB responds well to OxyTet.


Hey Andrew OxyTet does it also apply to an already dead hive without living larvae?


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

DavidZ said:


> if it's efb or afb you MUST burn the hives, have a nice big bonfire for a day.


Wrong. Efb does not require burning, only Afb does. 



Andrew Dewey said:


> Agree strongly with clyderoad. EFB responds well to OxyTet. You do have your veterinarian on speed dial?
> 
> (Just kidding, as I told my state apiarist, there MIGHT be something in my freezer) My yard will get used for a Vet training in June.


The poster should realize that oxytetracycline or terramycin is no longer a shelf product. You must get a vet to prescribe it to you first. This went into effect the 1st of this year. 



Eduardo Gomes said:


> Hey Andrew OxyTet does it also apply to an already dead hive without living larvae?


Is this rhetorical?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Eduardo posts from Portugal. I have no familiarity with their laws. I need to do some research to answer his question.

If Hex0rc was addressing me about the Veterinary Feed Directive, I am all too aware of it. Trying to find Veterinarians who know bees and bee diseases is tough. As I understand the law now, a Vet has to make his/her own diagnosis, and can't rely on either the beekeeper or the state apiarist's identification of the problem. I volunteered my yard in part to start to get to know the Vets in my area. Like it or not, the cost of Farm Calls will be taken into account when deciding how to deal with bee health issues.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

EFB I've had, got it from comb from a wild deadout in my 2nd year (2012) (needed comb for swarm traps) The state bee inspector calls EFB bored nurse bee syndrome. Infected brood that should be tossed out by nurse bees is fed. The brood smells bad, you can see a ridge on it, but in a dead hive Beltsville lab is your best diagnostician. Rarely does brood live long enough to get capped, kinda turns into stinky white mush before it can be capped, making it hard for nurse bees to remove. they collect the infection when feeding the brood and distribute it via their honey stomachs, I think. So the honey is contagious when the hive is robbed. Why I NEVER feed unknown honey to my bees

If it is EFB, I will tell you what I did. I harvested all the honey for human use only. I melted all the wax for candle use only, I burned the wooden frames and bleached the plastic ones, the plastic that had dark brood comb I discarded after bleaching. lightly torched the inside of the boxes. I treated the bees with Terramycin and fed them sugar water and let them totally rebuild all comb on new frames. Once I stripped hives and started treatment I did not lose anymore hives. Bee inspector said re-queen but queens were not readily available so I didn't. I had no further issues. 

The brood comb will have the worst spore count and absolutely should be burned. It doesn't melt well but you can try to melt it in a solar wax melter. 

I know nothing about PMS. but Beltsville did confirm my EFB in about May of 2013. It had initially only affected one wild hive I'd caught and put on that old comb. When they were robbed out by my other bees I lost 2 full hives and 2 more were sickening. My neighbor's bees were also infected, I stripped his hive and treated his bees as well. Get lab run on the dark brood comb. I would just harvest that honey myself.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

> Is this rhetorical?
No. The OP mentions that it has found the hive already dead.

> Eduardo posts from Portugal. I have no familiarity with their laws.
In Portugal and in EU we can not legally use antibiotics in hives.

> The brood comb will have the worst spore count and absolutely should be burned.
EFB is a disease that does not form spores.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

My hives got it from old brood comb from a dead hive. If no spores there was certainly something in it.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

rwlaw said:


> I would send samples of the larvae/comb into the Beltsville lab to determine what you do with the comb. It's kind of early to have PMS, but I wouldn't discount it.
> https://www.ars.usda.gov/northeast-...search-laboratory/docs/how-to-submit-samples/


+1
This is the only way to be 100% sure (send a sample of the comb with dead brood). 



Brooksville said:


> Let's just assume that it is EFB. What can we do with frames?


Acetic acid fumigation (many threads, may not work on pollen or capped cells), render wax bleach wood/equipment, store comb for over 1.5 years (no pollen). 



Gypsi said:


> My hives got it from old brood comb from a dead hive. If no spores there was certainly something in it.


No spores, the bacteria stays alive and viable for 7 months in honey, 1.5 years on comb/equipment and longer in bee bread. (see the google book I post in the first link below)

OTC which now requires a prescription only inhibits the bacteria, it can and often comes back after the antibiotic wares off.

Here's some threads than may help you;

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ease-help-ID-this-brood-disease-pics-included

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?324013-Low-mite-counts-and-PMS-looking-brood


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Yes Gypsi, something else. Burning frames is an effective measure, surely. But I doubt whether such an extreme measure is necessary? A good biocide or blaze well the frames should suffice. It will depend on the level of subjective security / tranquility that each of us has / wishes.

"The bacteria that causes EFB does not produce spores, but combs contaminated with the bacteria can still reinfect honey bees in subsequent years."

source: http://articles.extension.org/pages/...oney-bee-brood


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I was being harassed on another forum by a member from Israel who insisted I should burn my whole hive. frames are cheap. Wooden ones burn. Plastic ones sat in the solar wax melter til they warped, followed by a 24 hour dunk in bleach water, then went to the city dump. It was unpleasant, it cost me much sadness and irritation. I am possibly the only member of my local bee club to ever see EFB largely because I was effective in treating, and got with all beekeepers within flight range and helped them inspect their hives. I learned. And I learned to NEVER feed honey from a dead hive without knowing cause of death, NEVER use comb from a dead hive without knowing cause of death.


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