# not older that 36 hours



## drone1952 (Dec 4, 2005)

In queen rearing books they said that you can use larvae not older that 36 hours.36 hours is the turn point for larvae,I mean that the larvae is more worker and if you rear queen it will be a poor queen?


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## marcelodelfiore (Jul 14, 2005)

I believe it is more related to the acceptance of grafted larvae than to the quality of queens. But 24 hours is even better, and 24 hours is the limit mentioned by most of queen breeders I've been talking to.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

I am NO expert on queen rearing, hopefully one of the experts can clarify this a bit better, but it is my understanding that the egg hatches in about 36 hours after it was laid, and that is the best time to graft, when the actual *larvae* is only a few hours to a day old. I am not sure how old they can technically still be viable, but I graft when the frame sometimes has eggs on the outside of the pattern, the frame was with the queen 1 day.
Sheri


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

I couldn't find the source offhand, but I believe the age when grafted plays a big part on queen weight (which can be related to quality). Though there are plenty of other factors at play (genetics, mating, etc.).

-Tim


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Tim, I'd be interested in that info as well. I know there is a big variance in the amount of jelly in the cells and wondered if there was an optimum larvae based on that. I graft the ones with the most jelly, assuming they are the best fed etc, but this is just gut feeling, and could be the worst thing to do, didn't know anyone had defined it better. 
Sheri


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

I am no eXpert but when I addended Sue Coby`s class she stressed the importance of feeding the larve for the girst 4 days, in other words if you graft a 2 day old larva it has missed one day of feeding.

Tim has attended Sue`s classes mabee he can elaborate more on this.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

<<the importance of feeding the larve for the girst 4 days>>
I am not sure what you mean by this. So she wants 4 days after hatch before the graft? The larvae are fed after grafting also, in fact, wouldn't they probably be fed better because the bees are making queens? Is the break from graft to cell starter more critical at one point than other? 
I was under the impression that the larvae fed themselves from food put into their cell, so theoretically the only break would be when they are put back into the cell starter, while these bees refresh and refine the food supply. Is there a most optimum time for this to happen?
Sheri


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

When I attended Sue's class 5 years ago. Her attention was focused on grafting the youngest larva available. Her quote " if you can see the larva it is too old". My understanding of her meaning was that the earliest larva transfer after hatching from the egg would generate a more natural queen and healthier. 
The older the larva transfer is done the less ovules (hope I got the spelling right) that the new queen was was able to grow.
When we transfer a workers larva from a worker cell into a queen cup we always move worker jelly with the larva. This worker jelly is not the same rich configuration as the nurse bees provide when they make royal jelly and provide it for the queen cups. The worker jelly that is in the queen cups is removed from the cups and royal jelly is replaced. This rich royal jelly is the only thing that forces the young larva to become a queen. If royal jelly is feed to "old larva" the resultant queen is very inferior and will be superceded as soon as the hive can. In some instances the queens never mature or mate.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>36 hours is the turn point for larvae,I mean that the larvae is more worker and if you rear queen it will be a poor queen?

Yes.

The egg is laid (we'll call that day 0 since no time has elapsed) On day 3 1/2, the egg hatches (about 84 hours or so). The nurse bees began to feed. Between when they first put the food in the cell and 24 yours later would be what I would consider the window I would shoot for. 12 hours would be perfect (4 days even).


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

see W Bee Farm and Michael said it a lot better than I did the Important thing is feeding the LRVA

W G B she was after me for garfting a LARVA that was to OLD too 

At my age and my eye site I am diong like Mike use a Jenter box 

One way I use the BOX is I hold it up to the sun and look through the plastic cups and pick the LARVA that looks clear then put thoes cups in the cell builder


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

I used to use the Jenter Kit. I still have two of them. I sincerely believe they are the easiest and most user friendly of the kits out on the market. I have helped several of my fellow local beekeepers with some of the other kits. But, I suppose it is what you get used too.
I still have a difficult time "seeing" the larva when I graft.
If you go a local office supply sometimes you can locate a light flourescent magnifing lens that will clamp onto your table. This helps a lot, along with lots of light. 

Of course, my wife still gets upset with me grafting in the kitchen.

Frank Wyatt


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

When I first decided to graft queens I bought all sorts of stuff I thought would make it easier. People had told me how difficult it was to graft, how hard to see the larvae etc. 
I bought one of those fluorescent magnifying lamp but I found the focal length was too short to allow the grafting tool to fit between the lens and the comb, so check this out before you buy if you decide to go that route.
I tried reading glasses, which I had here anyway. As it turned out John thought the glasses worked well but I didn't need any sort of magnification to see for grafting, the light being angled _directly_ into the cells was the most important factor. I use a cool bright fluorescent, which I like. Some people say those headlamps work well. We keep our cell starter in a dark room and I would think the red light on some of those headlamps might be a nice feature for putting the cell bars in the starter. I might try one of those this year.
Just as you can train your eyes to see eggs outside, or to find the queen, you can train your eyes to see the larvae to graft, if your eyes can focus close enough. It gets easier the more you do it. 

I also bought just about every grafting tool on the market, (including one for $30+!!) and ended up finding one of the cheapest ones, the chinese bamboo grafting tool, to be the easiest for me to use. And you really don't need any tool at all. I know a guy that makes a ton of cells every year and he uses a toothpick which he makes soft by chewing on the end of it,  .
Sheri


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## drone1952 (Dec 4, 2005)

Hi All,
Thanks for your replay, but now here is another question. It is not a foolish question: it’s better to graft or to use method like Jenter,Ezi-Queen or even Miller method I mean You can get better queens grafting or using methods I mentioned? Thanks.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Not sure, but I think it is more a matter of scale, quality controls equal. Would it be difficult to raise hundreds of queens without grafting?
Sheri


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

"Would it be difficult to raise hundreds of queens without grafting?"

Well the "pros" graft hundreds a day and with the "BOX" jenter or others you must keep the queen confined for at least 12 hours or more and the "pros" will tell you that,that keeps the queen from laying a thousand or more eggs.
Just another 2 cents form me


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

In my opinion, each of the different methods have advantages.
I feel the most important period is the grafting/tranfer age of the larva and the quality of the feeding done by the starter hive. 
In a perfect world, transfering/grafting larva within 12 hours of the egg hatching, and the immediate transfer of that queen cell and larva into a "strong" starter will produce the best virgin queen available.


When it comes to open mating; we "beekeepers" do the best we can with drone saturation and then hope for the best.

Remember when raising queens "everything" is done on a schedule and you must maintain that schedule. Even if it is raining, snowing, sleeting, your family shows up for a visit, you are working your regular job, or it is time to go on vacation.
I have one of those lights that fits on my head over my veil. Many a time I have been outside at night pulling queens, installing cells that are ready to hatch into mating nucs. Getting stung on my hands, and feeling the bees crawling up my pants leg because they found a way in under my suit. Nothing like the joys of beekeeping.

Frank


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>"Would it be difficult to raise hundreds of queens without grafting?"

I raise hundreds of queens without grafting. I have Jenter boxes. I usually have two Jenter boxes going at a time in two donor hives so I can graft about a hundred at a time. I reuse all the Jenter parts.


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## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

So, are the bees smarter than us? IF you do a split (which I have done, this week) do they choose the right age egg/larvae to begin feeding royal jelly to. How then can you determine if the queen is of the right age larvae? Is it just a gamble, or are the percentages pretty good that the bees will do it right?


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

"So, are the bees smarter than us?"

YES!

But there are thoes that say if you let them choose you are a "beehaver" so every body has an openion so find what works for you


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So, are the bees smarter than us? IF you do a split (which I have done, this week) do they choose the right age egg/larvae to begin feeding royal jelly to. How then can you determine if the queen is of the right age larvae?

Here's what Jay Smith says:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Queens Reared by the Emergency Method


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## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

So what percentage of the time would you guess that the bees raise a good queen, verses the times that they use larvae too old to porduce a good queen. I have always heard that a superseded queen is the best queen to have, provided it is form good genetics. Is this true?


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Ron Young said:


> So what percentage of the time would you guess that the bees raise a good queen, verses the times that they use larvae too old to porduce a good queen. I have always heard that a superseded queen is the best queen to have, provided it is form good genetics. Is this true?


"I have always heard that a superseded queen is the best queen to have"

That is what I have been tought, Think about it they chose her.


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## Bee (Jan 17, 2007)

Micheal,
Thanks for providing the link to "Better Queens by Jay Smith"
I love E-Books


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*Steve Taber has a good rule of thumb*

If the larve is larger than an egg on its side, it is too old to graft from. I have always heard 12-24 hours after hatching is maximum for good queens. If you can easily see it, its too old.

CS


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If the larve is larger than an egg on its side, it is too old to graft from.

That's a good rule of thumb.


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