# 6 days since queenless split, how bad is it?



## Qkrwogud (Nov 2, 2015)

It is Summer here in New Zealand.
Transferred 3 frames of brood/eggs + 1 of stores + undrawn frame into a nuc. No queen or cell as I wanted to let them produce their own.
After 3 days I saw a few queen cells with royal jelly so it was looking good.
I took a look today and it almost looks like there is a hole at the back of the cells that may even connect to other side of frame.
The cells aren't exactly big and one of them looks as though some of it has been chewed off.
Pictures aren't the best but you can see below. What is going on here, has my attempt failed? Can I try give them another frame of eggs/brood?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Doesn't look like many bees in there. Try destroying the cells and shaking in some more bees and adding a frame of eggs, replacing the undrawn frame. Now that they are in royal jelly producing mode, adding more bees and frame of eggs they should draw out some nice cells. If you shake bees on top of the lid from other hive frames, the older bees fly back home, the younger bees crawl into the nuc entrance. Good luck.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Is that multiple larva in a cells on the last pic? what is that I see? Is it laying workers? I can't quite make out what I'm seeing...


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## Qkrwogud (Nov 2, 2015)

RayMarler said:


> Doesn't look like many bees in there. Try destroying the cells and shaking in some more bees and adding a frame of eggs, replacing the undrawn frame. Now that they are in royal jelly producing mode, adding more bees and frame of eggs they should draw out some nice cells. If you shake bees on top of the lid from other hive frames, the older bees fly back home, the younger bees crawl into the nuc entrance. Good luck.


If I add more bees, are they not going to fight? I'd be taking the bees from the hive that these frames from, perhaps they will still recognize each other I don't know.


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## Qkrwogud (Nov 2, 2015)

RayMarler said:


> Doesn't look like many bees in there. Try destroying the cells and shaking in some more bees and adding a frame of eggs, replacing the undrawn frame. Now that they are in royal jelly producing mode, adding more bees and frame of eggs they should draw out some nice cells. If you shake bees on top of the lid from other hive frames, the older bees fly back home, the younger bees crawl into the nuc entrance. Good luck.


If I add more bees, are they not going to fight? I'd be taking the bees from the hive that these frames from, perhaps they will still recognize each other I don't know.


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## Qkrwogud (Nov 2, 2015)

RayMarler said:


> Doesn't look like many bees in there. Try destroying the cells and shaking in some more bees and adding a frame of eggs, replacing the undrawn frame. Now that they are in royal jelly producing mode, adding more bees and frame of eggs they should draw out some nice cells. If you shake bees on top of the lid from other hive frames, the older bees fly back home, the younger bees crawl into the nuc entrance. Good luck.


I'd take more bees/frame from where this split came from, but would they not fight? They have been separated for 6 days now. I'm not too sure about your larvae question.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

They won't fight. They need the resources.


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## Retroguy (Jul 16, 2014)

My understanding is that the bees don't fight when there is brood to tend to. That's why you want to add a frame of brood: Gives them something to do and they need the young larvae to make a new queen.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Frame with EGGS, gives them time to choose a good young larva.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

I could Swear that I am seeing a mite in both of them cells. Needs more bees.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

The hole in the back of the cell is the original cell, it was not sealed off and the bees did not remove wax from below. So the cell is banana shaped. When you add more frames with eggs and bees try notching a few. simply depress the bottom wall of the cells and crush the cells below them with your hive tool this gives the bees the space to build a nice vertical queen cell.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Tenbears is thinking what I was thinking when I looked at the pics earlier on my phone, but they were too small to be positive. It certainly looks like there's jelly and larva in one, but the lack of any other larva nearby makes me think that they didn't have a good selection from which to make queens. That and there appear to be almost no bees, but it's a pretty small shot.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Do as Ray Marler suggested. Add a lot more bees. Also feed the cell builder. The queen cells you have look very dry, meaning there isn't enough bees and/or food available to produce the royal jelly needed to make nice cells. Don't be concerned with starting over - its better to make the best queens possible, than just any old queen. Good luck.


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## Qkrwogud (Nov 2, 2015)

AstroBee said:


> Do as Ray Marler suggested. Add a lot more bees. Also feed the cell builder. The queen cells you have look very dry, meaning there isn't enough bees and/or food available to produce the royal jelly needed to make nice cells. Don't be concerned with starting over - its better to make the best queens possible, than just any old queen. Good luck.


I don't have a feeder that will fit into this nuc without removing two frames. They originally got half a frame of stores, which they still have most of. Do you have any suggestions on how else I can feed if need be? I understand that I've mostly been moving nurse bees that can't fly, I see very little foragers going and coming from this split.

Should I put the fresh frame of eggs in the middle of the split or can it be on the outside?
Can I leave the current queen cells alone and just add the eggs/bees?

I think I'll shake in about 3 or 4 frames of bees later today along with the frame of eggs.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Why not make the smaller split queen right and leave the larger remaining colony to raise a queen? Which they are more well equipped to do.

Can you feed with an inverted jar though the top cover? Or put an empty box on top and invert a jar that way?


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## Qkrwogud (Nov 2, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> Why not make the smaller split queen right and leave the larger remaining colony to raise a queen? Which they are more well equipped to do.
> 
> Can you feed with an inverted jar though the top cover? Or put an empty box on top and invert a jar that way?


It's my only other hive and as I'm a beginner I'm trying not to put it under too much more stress so unwilling to take the risk.

I don't have the equipment for a jar feeder or a box that would fit my 5 frame nuc. I've got a 6 frame nuc, how about I transfer everything to the 6 frame nuc and add a frame feeder? (It won't fit in my current 5 frame nuc box)


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Hey Dude, 
Just to share what I did when I started expanding- I tried walking away a lot of nucs to raise their own queens. It can be done, people on here will say they do it, but in my experience in my apiary, its just too much to ask of a nuc. You also give up a lot of brood rearing. Why not buy a queen? Your nuc will be more than a month ahead than if it raised its own, and think of all the extra brood you'll have as a result.


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## Qkrwogud (Nov 2, 2015)

Sunday Farmer said:


> Hey Dude,
> Just to share what I did when I started expanding- I tried walking away a lot of nucs to raise their own queens. It can be done, people on here will say they do it, but in my experience in my apiary, its just too much to ask of a nuc. You also give up a lot of brood rearing. Why not buy a queen? Your nuc will be more than a month ahead than if it raised its own, and think of all the extra brood you'll have as a result.


Thanks for reminding me about this option. I could pick a queen up tomorrow but the split will have been 8 days being split without a queen. In this state would it be fine to introduce a mated queen?

Does it matter if the split is a bit low on bees?

I'm thinking for now, tonight I'll move them to a slightly bigger nuc so I can give them a frame feeder.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

What is your primary objective? If simply an increase, then you can buy a queen. Personally, I think you should take this as a learning opportunity and get the nuc to make a few decent cells. Shake in a few frames of bees. You want a high density of bees in the nuc to make the cells. *Make sure not to shake in your existing queen!! *Cut out the old cells that they started previously. Give them a day while queenless with a feeder on the nuc. The following day give them some comb with fresh eggs. If older comb, notch the cells below the eggs as mentioned above. This is not the kind of system that's going to make 15 big cells, but you only need a couple. Feeding is very important in the cell builder. Keep the feeder full for about 5 day after you place the eggs. Even if they have stored honey you still want to feed.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

For a good queen to be raised, you'll need a good nectar flow with incoming pollen and nectar. You also need at least a little bit of stores of both in the nuc. You also need a good amount of bees, nurse bees preferable. IF any of these things are missing, then you need to fix it. 

Simulate a flow by feeding syrup, and giving pollen patty. You can not raise a good queen if there are no pollen stores or pollen coming in. If the bee population is low, then shake in some more bees. Destroy the old cells as they look questionable and have been built under sub-prime conditions ie lack of stores and nurse bees. Destroy the cells and give a frame with good amount of eggs. With eggs, it gives them time to choose good aged larva to make a queen from. Shake in some more bees, keeping in mind the older bees will fly back to their home they came from.

If you are going to be giving a purchased queen, then destroy the queen cells and give the queen, don't be waiting a day, they'll take the queen as they don't have anything else to make a queen from. In this case, waiting a day might cause the bees you do have in there to leave or turn laying worker. Don't give a frame of eggs or open larva if you are going to give them a mated queen, as they may decide to raise one of their own instead of accepting the new caged queen.


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## Qkrwogud (Nov 2, 2015)

Objectively it was part increasing hive count and part a learning experience. But I've decided that I don't want to hinder the main hive too much more, I understand you either produce bees or honey and I do want to get some honey too.

I'm most likely going to get the queen tomorrow. The split is a little light on the bee count and I see almost no foragers. Will it be enough if I move them to a bigger nuc and put in a frame feeder when I put in the mated queen? Or do I need to shake in more bees? Ideally I don't want to do anything other than introducing the mated queen, I don't mind if they will be slow to build up.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Sure, move to 6 frame nuc with feeder. Don't shake in any more bees IF you think there are enough there to take a queen, say, two frames covered in bees. After she's been accepted and laying, then you can give her a frame of sealed brood, as they emerge, they will give her a population of young bees to assist the queen and raise some brood. Best of luck to you.


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## Qkrwogud (Nov 2, 2015)

RayMarler said:


> Sure, move to 6 frame nuc with feeder. Don't shake in any more bees IF you think there are enough there to take a queen, say, two frames covered in bees. After she's been accepted and laying, then you can give her a frame of sealed brood, as they emerge, they will give her a population of young bees to assist the queen and raise some brood. Best of luck to you.


They have maybe 1/3 frame of stores, could I get away with not transferring to bigger nuc with frame feeder? Is it necessary to add a frame of brood later?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

The added frame of sealed brood would give them a boost, but it is not critical if you have enough bees in the nuc already, it'll just take longer for them to build up. with only 1/3 of a frame of stores, that's not much, and you don't have many foragers in there. I'd feed, but they could make it without. It's hard for me to say with confidence much of anything because I'm not there looking to see just what it is you have. 

I'm assuming you are in a flow? Is the stores they have open nectar? What about pollen? How many bees are in there? How old are the bees that are there? Adding a mated queen, she'll need bees to tend to her brood, and she'll also need foragers to bring in food for the brood. What do YOU think, is there enough bees to feed brood and bring in stores for a new queen to be able to lay? Queen needs bees to care for brood, the whole hive needs foragers to bring in energy and protein in the form of nectar and pollen. If you are purchasing a queen, don't you want her to thrive and lay eggs and have enough bees to feed them and foragers to bring in stores? It takes a frame of nectar and a frame of pollen to raise a frame of brood. What do you think that nuc in the condition it is in will be able to do if you give them a mated queen?


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## Qkrwogud (Nov 2, 2015)

RayMarler said:


> The added frame of sealed brood would give them a boost, but it is not critical if you have enough bees in the nuc already, it'll just take longer for them to build up. with only 1/3 of a frame of stores, that's not much, and you don't have many foragers in there. I'd feed, but they could make it without. It's hard for me to say with confidence much of anything because I'm not there looking to see just what it is you have.
> 
> I'm assuming you are in a flow? Is the stores they have open nectar? What about pollen? How many bees are in there? How old are the bees that are there? Adding a mated queen, she'll need bees to tend to her brood, and she'll also need foragers to bring in food for the brood. What do YOU think, is there enough bees to feed brood and bring in stores for a new queen to be able to lay? Queen needs bees to care for brood, the whole hive needs foragers to bring in energy and protein in the form of nectar and pollen. If you are purchasing a queen, don't you want her to thrive and lay eggs and have enough bees to feed them and foragers to bring in stores? It takes a frame of nectar and a frame of pollen to raise a frame of brood. What do you think that nuc in the condition it is in will be able to do if you give them a mated queen?


Yes we are in full flow here and weather has been great. They have about 1/3 capped honey, just a very small amount of nectar/pollen. Based on the information you provided, I guess it is necessary to feed, I hope nurse bees can reach it.

But even if I shake in more bees, only the young ones that can't fly will stay so no further pollen/nectar is coming in for a while anyway. Is it likely to make much difference? I think there is enough to tend to brood at the moment.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Qkrwogud said:


> But even if I shake in more bees, only the young ones that can't fly will stay so no further pollen/nectar is coming in for a while anyway.


Exactly! The more nurse bees she has, the greater amount she can lay. If there is enough to raise brood, then may not need to add any. Keep in mind, by the time the new bees are emerging, most of the current bees in the nuc may be dead from old age, the ones that aren't will be foragers by then. You can always add a frame of sealed brood or shake in some more bees in a few weeks down the road if it looks like they need it. Otherwise, it's early in the season, and the nuc will build slowly at first, but you'll be moving it to a full box after a couple or 3 rounds of brood or so. It sounds like you are confident in the amount of bees they have to give a mated queen to them, so do so. Adding bees can be done later on if you feel they need it. It may be that you don't need to feed them, they may make it, but I'd err on the side of insuring they DO make it. Good luck to you.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

In my first summer, I made increase by making nucs from my first hive with introduced queens. I had good success and it was a big relief so see the new queens laying. Once you have 2 or more hives with laying queens, beekeeper mistakes can be overcome much more easily and you can experiment. The next year I made a bunch of my own queens as I had much more resources to work with. 

Perhaps it could be considered good advice to make increase with introduced queens the first year, then start being serious about producing your own the second. 

Also often there isn't much choice in genetics when you get your first hive. The genetic choice is much wider when you purchase queens mid season.


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## Qkrwogud (Nov 2, 2015)

So I bought a mated queen and went to destroy my 2 poor cells, only to find they were both mostly gone.
Confused, I looked at the other frames only to discover 6 large straight and sealed queen cells.. Either I wasn't very observant, or patient, or both!
Fair bit of foragers in the hive and my assessment is there are plenty of bees in the split. Turned out to be a mostly happy ending, I certainly learnt my lesson.
I just hope they accept this queen!


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

If you do not destroy those six nice looking cells, then they will not accept your queen. That is what I've experienced here anyway. You now have the option of selling that new queen to someone else and keeping the queen cells, or destroy the queen cells and introduce your new queen. Good luck which ever road you choose to travel. :}


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## Qkrwogud (Nov 2, 2015)

RayMarler said:


> If you do not destroy those six nice looking cells, then they will not accept your queen. That is what I've experienced here anyway. You now have the option of selling that new queen to someone else and keeping the queen cells, or destroy the queen cells and introduce your new queen. Good luck which ever road you choose to travel. :}


Darn it! Did not consider I could have just resold the mated queen. But yes I destroyed the queen cells.
Thank you for all your feedback and assistance while I was struggling with this!


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Missing queen cells is a lesson I've learned, forgotten and relearned a couple times already. I might have started another nuc to take advantage of both. You may not have gotten much honey, but you would have had a bit of fun looking in on the new colonies.


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## Qkrwogud (Nov 2, 2015)

lharder said:


> Missing queen cells is a lesson I've learned, forgotten and relearned a couple times already. I might have started another nuc to take advantage of both. You may not have gotten much honey, but you would have had a bit of fun looking in on the new colonies.


Oh man I was so looking forward to it too! I did play on the thought of starting another nuc, but I'm not prepared to have another hive just yet. This split will mean I have 3 hives as a beginner in a suburban backyard.

I think on the most part I got to experience the new split growing up experience, just on fast forward mode not being there for queen hatching and getting mated.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I don't have bees yet so be nice to me, I know I am a dummy. I thought I had seen some where that the bees would tear down the queen cells if a queen was introduced. What I might have heard is that if you made a split and added a queen cell and there was a queen that you missed the bees would tear the cell down. I get mixed up and am trying to get some of this stuff clear in my mind before I get bees. Any thoughts?
Thanks
gww


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## Qkrwogud (Nov 2, 2015)

gww said:


> I don't have bees yet so be nice to me, I know I am a dummy. I thought I had seen some where that the bees would tear down the queen cells if a queen was introduced. What I might have heard is that if you made a split and added a queen cell and there was a queen that you missed the bees would tear the cell down. I get mixed up and am trying to get some of this stuff clear in my mind before I get bees. Any thoughts?
> Thanks
> gww


I'm also a newbie, but if they already have a queen and you add a queen cell, then yes they will destroy it.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

gww said:


> I don't have bees yet so be nice to me, I know I am a dummy. I thought I had seen some where that the bees would tear down the queen cells if a queen was introduced. What I might have heard is that if you made a split and added a queen cell and there was a queen that you missed the bees would tear the cell down. I get mixed up and am trying to get some of this stuff clear in my mind before I get bees. Any thoughts?
> Thanks
> gww


Every hive is different, but what I've experienced is that sometimes they will destroy the queen cells if they are just started, and if the queen being introduced is in laying condition with strong pheromones. But introducing a queen into a hive or nuc that has well developed queen cells in it will result in the introduced queen being rejected. 

If you introduce queen cells into a queen right hive, several outcomes can happen depending on the time of year, the flows, where you put the queen cells, and how strong the hive is. If put the cell in the top of the honey super a box or two above the queen, the cell may emerge and kill the old queen. If they are in spring swarm season and they are over populated, I imagine they might swarm? Sometimes the queen or workers will just destroy the cell you put in, if the hive already has a strong queen and is not in a condition to consider swarming. The cell may also emerge and run two queens for awhile and one of them will just disappear. Several ways can happen, like I said, depending on time of year, conditions of the hive and the existing queen, and nectar flows.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Okrw....
Thanks

Ray M......


> Several ways can happen, like I said, depending on time of year, conditions of the hive and the existing queen, and nectar flows.


It seems that it is ok that I am still some confused. Your post as well as the post before yours has helped clear my mind a bit. Thank you for taking the time to answer.
gww


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