# Building my own stuff



## Newbeez (Jul 17, 2011)

So I decided to build all my own hive stands and inner covers. I built 24 hive stands ans 24 covers today for just under $100.00. I havent painted them yet. I am thinking about building my owns supers next. Any advice? I would like finger joint them. I have most tools, but know idea how to quickly to finger joints. Any suggestions?. I Will post a picture of one of my Stands and inner covers later.


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## Tom B (May 11, 2011)

I am also building everything except frames, and would really like to see your stand and IC designs. I am keeping things very simple and using modern glue (titebond III) and "drywall" type screws to hold everything together. Trying to minimize the amount of end-grain exposed. We will see how things hold up over the season.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Newbeez........

Take a look at dovetailspline.com


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I am embarking on the same adventure -- I'd have the wood cut for a nuc box except that I cannot locate a single tape measure at the moment ( I have at least three, but I think my brother walked off with them).

Finger joints are fairly easy on a table saw with a dado blade. Set the blade for exactly 3/4" width and height and attach a backer board to the miter slide on the saw. Get it EXACTLY square (please use a verfied square, don't depend on the scale on the miter!). Make a cut through the backer board, then remove it and glue a 3/4" square piece in the hole. Should stick out at least a couple inches, depending on how many pieces you want to cut at a time.

Put the backer board on the saw and adjust sideways to get the piece you just glued in exactly 3/4" from the blade. This will let you do two things -- start the first slot in the right place and exactly space the rest. Screw the backer to the miter, double check to make sure it's still spaced exactly right

Stand your board on end with the side up against the guide piece and make a cut. Pull the miter back, put the slot you just cut over the guide, and cut again. Repeat until you have all the slots cut.

To cut the mating board, use another 3/4" piece between the guide and the board on the first cut so that you have the slot at the edge of the board instead of offset 3/4", then do the same shuffle as the first board.

Do a test set to make sure everything lines up, but I recommend clamping several to many pieces together for actual production. There are several reasons -- you will make them all the same length that way, cancelling out any uneven cuts on the ends, clamping a pile of boards together eliminates tipping or rotating them while cutting, and it takes about the same time to cut six or eight as it does one! Clamping them up also flattens out any cup, so that the fingers fit better when nailed up, too. A big block of wood also helps you resist the temptation to hold the piece too low and trim your fingers off as well.

I haven't measured yet, but I think I can cut at least six at a time without trouble, maybe eight. Weight is not a problem with the wood standing on the table saw.

You can notch the end pieces either before or after you cut the box joint, it doesn't matter. Might be easier to do it first so you don't cut the wrong end -- I don't think the 3/4" joints come out even on any of the boxes.

For frames for top covers you have to modify the joint a bit to avoid a gap at the end, ditto for inner covers. 

My price for a deep using the most expensive option (4 ft 1x12) this way is $11 and a few minutes of time. A medium or shallow will be $6.80, and the price goes down some if I get longer lumber (8 ft or 10 ft, it goes up in price at 12 ft long). A nuc box will be about $8 since I get two from three boards.

Peter


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

Years ago Barry had a set of instructions for making finger joints but I cannot find it.


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## Riverratbees (Feb 10, 2010)

A old man I met this winter showed me how he builds his. He just uses a router tongue and groove and liquid nails and I liked them so much I bought 5 nucs. He has a 100 hives alot of them are old some new and they look great. He uses screws not nails. He said he has built them this way for 40 years. Paint your equipment and maintain the equipment should last for a long time he showed me 20yr old hives still look good. They are like a car keep up the maintenance and you get 200,000 miles little to no maintenance 70000. He uses 1/2 in tounge and groove bit. Pre drill holes important so the tongue does't split the side. Your call later.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

You can't find the file, because they aren't "finger joints", they're "box joints". Terminology can be a bugaboo. If only everyone used the same names for the same things - but then wouldn't that be too easy?

Usually, what many woodworkers call finger joints, look like -->








​




They're cut with a bit that looks like -->​



​



I use a cutter that is very similar to this one shown at Rockler.

beyondthesidewalks, The "box joint" PDF, can be found, here on Beesource, at BOXJOINT.PDF.


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## Newbeez (Jul 17, 2011)

Tom B said:


> I am also building everything except frames, and would really like to see your stand and IC designs. I am keeping things very simple and using modern glue (titebond III) and "drywall" type screws to hold everything together. Trying to minimize the amount of end-grain exposed. We will see how things hold up over the season.


I will get a picture up tonight for you


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## Newbeez (Jul 17, 2011)

Thanks Peter,
This with Joseph link is exactly what I needed.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I would suggest you cut at least 4 boards at once. All 4 sides of a box. A jig helps eliminate any differences from batch to batch but is not perfect depending on the jig. When all 4 sides of the box are cut together any differences do not matter. All 4 sides have the same variation. I second the make sure it is square suggestion.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Stack up as many as you can. You will compensate for uneven end cuts if you do, and all the boxes will come out the same size. Not every set will match exactly, but these are for bees after all.

I found four 24" long pieces of 1x8 at Menard's in the cutoff bin today for 89 cents each -- a medium super for $3.56!

Gonna have to get a new throat plate for the table saw though -- the one I have to too narrow for a 3/4" dado blade set. I'll try to pick one up tomorrow at the woodworking store, and will then have my boxes done in a couple days.

Peter


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

Thanks, Joseph. Barry also PM'd me the link but you beat me to posting it here. I didn't need the credit just wanted the beesource user to have the resource that I knew was here somewhere. Terminology can be a problem.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I see this question a lot so I figured I would run out and take a picture of my high dollar box joint jig. Yep, a couple of pieces of scrap glued together and screwed to my mitre gauge. I clamped the scrap to the mitre, ran it through the dato, glued in a scrap piece. I moved the finger exactly one width (from a piece of stock)from the blade, screwed it to the mitre gauge. I did upgrade it with another piece of wood to run in the second mitre channel. 
















I would not cut 4 boards at one time. I think I had the math figured out it was 3,8 foot boards would get you four supers. I have the layout at work if you want it but I seem to think it was 3 longs and 2 short sides from two and the remainder from the last board. I will look it up tomorrow.


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## Newbeez (Jul 17, 2011)

Thanks for all the great help. Does anyone know how to upload a picture from an iPad? I want to put up a pic of the stuff I have built so far.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

3 long 2 short from one board, 2 long 3 short from the other -- I've been working up cutting lists for all the available sizes to see what is cheapest (12 ft boards are more expensive that 10 ft here).

10 ft works out a bit better -- 5 longs and one short from a board, 1 long and six shorts from the other for three boxes, very little waste. Might have to be a bit careful to get a board without knots in the wrong places, though. 

I don't see why cutting four or six boards at once is all that difficult if they are clamped together -- will take just about 1/4 the time, and I really want to make all my boxes at once. Time gets to be a problem once garden season comes 'round.

I like the extra runner -- I'll have to put on on mine when I build it. Should help keep the backer from twisting. I've learned the hard way that material moves all over the place on a table saw if not restrained.

Peter


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

OH yeah, that’s why I love this site! I have Bushkill queen castles on the table saw, going to cut the hand holds with Whimpies jig and one more way of maximizing my cuts. My local lumber store has 1x12x10’s at $13.19 and x8’ at $10.59. that puts me at $8.79 / deep for the 10’ boards and $8.47 for the 8’ boards. 4 queen castles from CDX @$22, that is $5.50 each (blew a cut so my actual is $7.33 each) That did not come out right. The point is that now if I can get a cheap 10’ I know that I can actually have less waste. I have gone down to cutting two box sides in a pass with clamps on them. I was doing all four clamped together but found I was burning the wood and lifting off of the blade just enough to get a bad cut. Like so many subjects here, JM2c. My wood is not the greatest so I work the boards around the knots so that is why I don’t stack while cutting to length.
Cut 3 boards with 3L, 2 sh and one board on 1 L 4 short (long =20", Short=16-3/8") Gives 5 sorry it was 4 boards for 5 boxes not 3 boards for 4.


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## Nantom670 (Jul 29, 2011)

Newbeez said:


> Thanks for all the great help. Does anyone know how to upload a picture from an iPad? I want to put up a pic of the stuff I have built so far.


I signed up on the free site, photobucket.com and download your pictures there and then post your photobucket site back on here or where ever you want to send them.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Newbeez said:


> Does anyone know how to upload a picture from an iPad?


http://www.beesource.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb3_reading_posting#faq_vb3_attachments


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## Buzzsaw2012 (Feb 1, 2012)

psfred;759282
Gonna have to get a new throat plate for the table saw though -- the one I have to too narrow for a 3/4" dado blade set. I'll try to pick one up tomorrow at the woodworking store said:


> Peter , here is a link to making a zero tolerance throat plate for your tablesaw http://www.woodsmith.com/magazine/extras/149/making-a-zero-clearance-dado-insert/
> easy as pie the wife made me 3 in about 15 minutes while I started working on super side boards.
> we are building all our own woodenware also , we have about 15 boxes ready to be glued up.
> Lee


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## greasydog26 (Apr 11, 2014)

Good info


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Here is my sled for making box Joints. Designed for safety, so you cannot get to the blade, as the wood passes through the dado blade. Can handle two boards at a time (both sides or both ends) 

If you use a sled, you do not have to have a zero clearance insert. I do, but you can get by without it.

cchoganjr


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## Knisely (Oct 26, 2013)

What a great thread. Ought to get a sticky.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

ok so i'll toss my thoughts in here. for mass production box joints are fine. I have a 800 dollar hybrid cabinet saw and a 150 dollar dado set and go figure I can't get 3/4 inch of blades on the thing. no I won't use a wobble blade. I use rabbit joints and do believe I have way less square inch of endgrain exposed than a box joint. I use staples and tightbond and it works out great. I was just sitting on one today doing an inspection. I have a low dollar jig like above that I made for 1/2 joints and just got tired of it taking so **** long. for those going to make one be warned if its off just a little it won't work well.
making boxes in general i'd recommend following some plans. I made a few nucs last year that I got too tall so the bee space between the top and bottom box is too big and now every frame I pull has dying larvae falling from the burr comb at the bottom. also width is important. these two are also two wide so can only be used on eachother. pretty much a waste as having equipment that is not exactly like it should be is a pain. 
its a good activity and for nucs and supers I will do it. I don't have great luck finding wood big enough to make deeps so i'll just continue to buy those at 13 bucks a piece with the pretty finger joints. remember the glue is what really keeps these water tight and together. if using screws spend some money and get exterior screws. use good paint AND primer.


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## Tom B (May 11, 2011)

I know a lot of beekeepers are also very skilled woodworkers, and for them, taking the time to make box joints and inset handles makes a lot of sense. There is enjoyment in the building as well as the using of this equipment. I am not so skillful, so, as an experiment, I started making very simple hive boxes with plain old butt joints, fastened with two screws and a good grade of exterior glue (type III). I have boxes that have been out in the field now for 5 years, through summers and winters here in Wisconsin, and not a single one of these simple boxes has failed. For handles, I use small pieces of 3" firring strips cut in half lengthwise screwed and glued to the ends of the boxes. Again, no failures in 5 years of continuous use.

This seems to be a good option for beekeepers who have access to a table saw (the only tool I use besides a cordless drill).

The keys I think to making this work are as follows:

1. Make sure your crosscut guide is precisely set to 90 degrees relative to your table saw blade. Use a square, do not trust the number on the crosscut guide.
2. Use a jig and clamps when assembling the boxes. One good 90 degree jig is sufficient, once a joint is screwed together, it will not move.
3. If painting your boxes (I paint mine), the choice of primer will make a difference in the durability of the painted surface. I found that if I use Zinser 1-2-3 as a primer the paint will last longer. I am not sure yet if painting the boxes actually affects their longevity, I just like the look of painted boxes.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I agree.

In fact if you research this topic you will find that I have said numerous times, and I still believe it, ANY Joint, with good wood; good glue; proper attachment (nails or screws); good preservative, (paint, dip wax etc), and handled properly; will outlast the average beekeeper, his son, and his grand son. Thats about all you ask of a bee box.

Box joints are nice, square up easy, and resemble commercial boxes. Use them if you like them.

Rabbet joints are nice, a little more difficult to square, a little more difficult to take a bow out of wood, but will work perfectly, and last a long time. use them if you like. 

Butt joints, easy to make, Use plenty of nails/ screws. use them if you like.

Use a good glue. I like Titebond III but there are others out there.

Enjoy your work, and watch your boxes last regardless of how you make them. Have fun.

cchoganjr


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

forget all that homemade jog stuff unless you like doing that for fun....The IBOX for finger joints is the best.......BUT I recent;y started making stuff using the KREG pocket hole kit...Makes a doggone strong box....


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## wallyblackburn (May 5, 2015)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> I agree.
> 
> In fact if you research this topic you will find that I have said numerous times, and I still believe it, ANY Joint, with good wood; good glue; proper attachment (nails or screws); good preservative, (paint, dip wax etc), and handled properly; will outlast the average beekeeper, his son, and his grand son. Thats about all you ask of a bee box.
> 
> ...


Another vote for rabbet joints. I have a pretty nicely equipped shop, and started out making box joints. They look cool and are strong if made well. But, will they significantly outlast a rabbet joint with Titebond III and screws? Doubtful. And they are LOTS more work.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

vdotmatrix said:


> forget all that homemade jog stuff unless you like doing that for fun....The IBOX for finger joints is the best.......BUT I recent;y started making stuff using the KREG pocket hole kit...Makes a doggone strong box....


I like working with wood more than the bees and they are two different parts of the year.
Adding to the following thread something I posted some years ago about gluing up the rabbet joints:
'The April fine woodworking Magazine was talking about how to increase the strength of end grain glue ups. They said to mix the yellow glue to a 1:1 mix with water and paint the end grain. After 2 hrs glue it up as normal. It is supposed to fill the grain so the glue joint is not starved of glue. Just thought that as much as joinery (butt joints vs. fingers) comes up it would really help to get more than just one short shoulder joint'
I have also posted the wood magazine joinery test that showed that the properly made rabbet joints are plenty strong to what we do with them. Add screws and nails and they are going to be just fine. 
Enjoy what you are doing, (buying ML, building or buying already built and painted), just be safe the tools built to tear through 2" oak does nasty work to flesh.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

minz said:


> I like working with wood more than the bees


Get out of here now.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Ya know I have been keeping bees and doing woodworking/building my own for over 30 years - and still learning from this dad Bern site


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

Joseph Clemens said:


> You can't find the file, because they aren't "finger joints", they're "box joints". Terminology can be a bugaboo. If only everyone used the same names for the same things - but then wouldn't that be too easy?
> 
> Usually, what many woodworkers call finger joints, look like -->
> 
> ...


Pardon my resurrection of this thread, but the boxjoint.pdf referenced above is MIA. Is it possible to repost it under the "Build It" section?


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

ibox is still, to me anyway, the easiest way to make finger/box joints...... but lately I have taken an even easier way to make my woodenware for hive boxes, sugar shims , telescoping covers and so on by using the KREG Finger joint jig. All my recent NUC boxes are made this way and it is fast strong and not as labor intensive as box joints.....if you screw up one aspect f the box joint the entire set of wood for that box is efft up. YMMV


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

I made D. Coates 5 frame boxes, but put a lid on it with 4 sides. I converted it to a Medium Box and not a deep. I will not run more deeps in my yard with new bees. I don't put the frame plug piece across the upper 2 ends. This keeps the box from bowing out on the 2 sides. I imagine that it's a bit more tricky to get the lid on/off, but I wanted more of a waterproof lid then that of what the cut list had.

I have an easier way of making foundationless frames then most people. I have a vacuum router for the sides.







I can make a lot of frames with a 2x8x10foot board or whatever piece of lumber. Goes pretty quick for table saw and a router. Just a TIP: If you can drive around and find a construction site, you likely can ask a worker or forman for scrap wood drops. Trust me, you got a trunk full of wood it will last you a long long time. It's best from what I found to work with wood new before it's dried out. Cuts down on the spliting on the routering of the end pieces.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I have still not been convinced that butt joints with screws are insufficient. The tensile strength of a #8 2 1/2" screw is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,700 pounds. Five in each joint should easily support 80 to 120 pounds of honey until the wood rots around them. Of course, this is the easy way. But not a lot of fun and that is why I don't do it either.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

these are NUC boxes made of 1/4" plywood with no frames ledges? I am not entirely sure what you are describing here.


frustrateddrone said:


> I made D. Coates 5 frame boxes, but put a lid on it with 4 sides. I converted it to a Medium Box and not a deep. I will not run more deeps in my yard with new bees. I don't put the frame plug piece across the upper 2 ends. This keeps the box from bowing out on the 2 sides. I imagine that it's a bit more tricky to get the lid on/off, but I wanted more of a waterproof lid then that of what the cut list had.
> 
> I have an easier way of making foundationless frames then most people. I have a vacuum router for the sides.
> View attachment 29259
> ...


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

D Coates nuc boxes are made from 1/2" plywood, not 1/4". You can review the plans here:
http://beesource.com/build-it-yourself/5-frame-nuc-d-coates-version/


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

The other real important thing I came across early on that was overlooked was having a perfectly flat/square/level assembly surface. Nothing sucks more that to cut the wood, painstakingly cut box joints, cut the hand holds, cut the ledges for the frames, assemble your work in the last step and it wobbles because you assembled it on a crappy surface that wasnt flat. shoot yourself.


Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> I agree.
> 
> In fact if you research this topic you will find that I have said numerous times, and I still believe it, ANY Joint, with good wood; good glue; proper attachment (nails or screws); good preservative, (paint, dip wax etc), and handled properly; will outlast the average beekeeper, his son, and his grand son. Thats about all you ask of a bee box.
> 
> ...


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

Hey man, I have worked with wood a while and this is not "ONE BY" wood: http://www.beesource.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=29260&d=1481035612 I know those plans for sure.... I make the full on NUC boxes, with regular TC and all.


Rader Sidetrack said:


> D Coates nuc boxes are made from 1/2" plywood, not 1/4". You can review the plans here:
> http://beesource.com/build-it-yourself/5-frame-nuc-d-coates-version/


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Yes, the D Coates plywood is ONE BY DIVIDED BY TWO plywood, otherwise colloquially known as 1/2 INCH*, as I said in post #36. 



* its 1/2" _nominal_; plywood is often manufactured just slightly less than nominal size these days


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

haha, i dont care aout the coates plans....I was just asking a question about post #33 and not really sure about what he was sharing with us. I suppose it could be 1/2 plywood but who the heck would make bee boxes out of any kind of plywood unless they were being used indoors..(that's a joke)..at any rate I think the communication here is starting to deteriorate so I am just going to BUTT out. BEE GOOD!


Rader Sidetrack said:


> Yes, the D Coates plywood is ONE BY DIVIDED BY TWO wood, otherwise colloquially known as 1/2 INCH*, as I said in post #36.
> 
> 
> 
> * its 1/2" _nominal_; plywood is often manufactured just slightly less than nominal size these days


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If you include a quote from one of my posts, and then make a comment that implies my post is not correct, I am likely to respond in an attempt to clarify your misunderstanding. 


If you were directing your comment to _frustrateddrone_, perhaps you should have said so.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

vdotmatrix said:


> The other real important thing I came across early on that was overlooked was having a perfectly flat/square/level assembly surface. Nothing sucks more that to cut the wood, painstakingly cut box joints, cut the hand holds, cut the ledges for the frames, assemble your work in the last step and it wobbles because you assembled it on a crappy surface that wasnt flat. shoot yourself.


Age old woodworkers lesson. He speaks wisdom here.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

frustrateddrone said:


> I have an easier way of making foundationless frames then most people. I have a vacuum router for the sides.


Please tell us more about how you make your frames.


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