# Sustainable beekeeping



## REDWOOD (Feb 5, 2014)

don't count the Chickens before they hatch..........last year in the UK was the longest coldest winter for over 100 years which followed a wet summer leading to a massive reduction in hive numbers, some beekeepers lost their entire stock


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## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

My goal is to not buy any bees this year. I still don't have a grasp on queen rearing yet. But self sustaining is the direction I'm trying to head for.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

GLOCK, sustainable after less than 2 years? Tell us about it in another ten.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Tell us about it in another ten.


DITTO!!!

cchoganjr


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

Amen....I haven't bought bees for 6+ years but after this winter's record snow and cold I am glad I took the precaution and put my name in for a few nucs in April. I will be ecstatic if 50% make it. This is a North Dakota winter not a Fort Wayne one. I doubt if anyone in the area had their bees prepared for weeks of below 20 temps, 60 inches of snow, and nearly constant wind.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

REDWOOD said:


> don't count the Chickens before they hatch....


:thumbsup: Two years? I wouldn't make that claim until I reached at least 5 years.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

GLOCK, don't take any of these replies to personally or to seriously. Just stick it out and keep on keeping on.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> GLOCK, sustainable after less than 2 years? Tell us about it in another ten.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

So, you treat with OA vapor?

Is that really 'sustainable'?


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

GLOCK said:


> So how many sustainable beekeeper are in the house I think I can call myself one now that I'm in my 2nd year with out buying bees and making my own queens and nucs so with 23 hives I'd say I'm not buying bee this year .:thumbsup:


So what did the bee adict spend 17,000 on? :lookout:

I hope to be sustainable now (3 colonies with live bees as of one week ago). I do have a package with queen on order to arrive in April in case I am not sustainable by beginning of April ('tis a LONG winter).


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

GLOCK said:


> This is my 5th year but have not paid for bees in two.
> Maybe look at the signature


 is right. 

After having bees since 1976 maybe my apiary is sustainable too. U due the math.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

WLC said:


> So, you treat with OA vapor?
> 
> Is that really 'sustainable'?


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> is right.
> 
> After having bees since 1976 maybe my apiary is sustainable too. U due the math.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No sure I understand. Maybe some punctuation would help?

Not losing all is a good plan.


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## cdevier (Jul 17, 2010)

Guess I don't understand what oav has to do with sustainability. Think that GLOCK is breeding mites that have oav resistance? I think not.
Charlie


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> No sure I understand. Maybe some punctuation would help?


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

.inch:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

GLOCK said:


> I'm sure you can figure it out. Sorry I'll try to do better next time.


Why should I have to work that hard when you could use the "Edit Post" function?

I haven't paid for any bees in 10 months, does that count? 

Mr. Sustainable Apiary, Michael Palmer buys queens every now and then I believe. So will you, some time. That doesn't make it any less sustainable. Sustainability is a loaded term. The only thing sustainable is change. Adapt or die.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

GLOCK said:


> So if I treat I can't be sustainable?
> I would think keeping my bees alive would be much more sustainable then letting them die:scratch:


Uh, Glock.

It's illegal to use OA as a miticide in the U.S. . So, some other word besides 'sustainable' would apply.

I understand what you're trying to say though.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Who cares if you had to buy bees or not? If I make more honey than the next guy, I can afford to buy some bees. Maybe time is the real test of sustainability.

Crazy Roland
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

guess I better put my tail between my legs and get the hell out of here boy do fell like the bastard child!
Sorry for asking .
I plan on making queens nucs and honey all on my 12 acres with only my bees. I have done this the last 2 year of my 5 years in beekeeping. I was just wondering who else does this that's all .
Some of you bee gods just love to fight don't ya ? 
I'll ask again in 10 years when I know some thing.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

GLOCK said:


> ...I was just wondering who else does this that's all ....


 I do not know if I have rights to speak at this forum with my 4 beehives  I never bought any bees. Originally I had 2 beehives (for free, feral), now myself and my neighbors have 6 beehives from the original stock. They are treatment-free and doing remarkably well. It is difficult to keep bees at such small scale, but they are alive against all predictions that my bees will die soon without "proper" treatment and annual queen replacement... old queens, no treatment, happy me and bees


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

GLOCK said:


> Some of you bee gods just love to fight don't ya ?


I was sorry I missed your original question, must have been good, don't take it personal, the winter is starting to wear on everybody.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I guess I got here late. I had trouble following the thread, but the title seems interesting.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
I bought three packages of bees, total, since I began keeping bees, back in 1966. Since then, I've purchased lots of equipment, and I've designed and built lots of my own equipment. In all the other years and at least a half-dozen different locations, around this country (USA), I've either moved bees and equipment with me, or obtained equipment and then installed captured feral colonies, locally. Sometimes I have purchased queens to change the genetics of my colonies and/or to expedite creating splits. Sometimes I've just done walk-away splits to increase my colony count. I've never paid money for bees, since the 1960's, except queens. Sometimes people have paid me to take their bees, swarms or cut-outs. That's way cool.

For the past twenty - plus years, that I've been located in the Marana/Tucson area, I've only purchased a few mother queens (which I've bred from), and equipment that I was gifted, purchased at a discount (yard sale), or designed and built myself. During my years here, I have produced many hundreds of nucleus colonies and even more queens. I even produced a few package colonies, and a few of those, I created for myself, to re-experience the nostalgia of my first few colonies, from back in the late 1960's. This season, the demand for nucleus colonies and queens is totally overwhelming. Fortunately, these past few weeks we've been having a modest flow from wildflowers, and the temperatures have been in the high 60-70'sF daytime, and 40-50'sF at night. It is still going to be a challenge to produce enough bees to fill most of the requests.

I'm not sure how to define, "sustainable beekeeping", but my hobby is sure keeping me busy.

I'd say, sustainable beekeeping, is where you produce more bees. each season, than you need to acquire, from other producers. Even if some of those are wild caught, from swarm captures or cut-outs.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

GLOCK.... you appear to have messed up the thread. I can not follow it...... Did you do this on purpose? If so, it is quite immature. Are you very young? Are you named after the weapon? You appear to be very sensitive, perhaps you should stay away from firearms.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"







Originally Posted by *GLOCK*  

So how many sustainable beekeeper are in the house I think I can call myself one now that I'm in my 2nd year with out buying bees and making my own queens and nucs so with 23 hives I'd say I'm not buying bee this year .:thumbsup:"

Congratulations GLOCK. May you have continued success.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> "
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahh... so that is what the thread was all about! GLOCK would not have to have called me all those bad names in my email if he had simply put up the OP.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

I can't find anything wrong with that original posts. There are treatment free beekeepers that call them treatment free beekeeper in their second year, which I find much more confusing. 

Glock: Building such nice apiaries as you did, and growing into such a hive count in a two years time is above the average beginner's performance. I reckon this has been a very well done job (minus the overdose of the oxalic acid vaporizing) and if you continue your success, you gonna be more sustainable than others are. 

Sustainability is such a general term...who really lives sustainable...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> ...who really lives sustainable...


All of us, until that final breath and heart beat.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

hpm08161947 said:


> GLOCK.... you appear to have messed up the thread. I can not follow it...... Did you do this on purpose? If so, it is quite immature. Are you very young? Are you named after the weapon? You appear to be very sensitive, perhaps you should stay away from firearms.


And I called you just one name and the why I see it you are a ------- . I ripped down all my post because apparently Sustainable was not the right word to use and still -------s like you still have something to say. I don't get it people go out of there way to help people that want to learn beekeeping and the GRUPPY OLD GUYS got to jump in and be so anal {great description take it any way you want} well beekeeping is not that hard guys and all that want to criticize and tell how wrong I am PM me so the rest can get on with the joy of learning beekeeping.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

GLOCK said:


> And I called you just one name and the why I see it you are a ------- . I ripped down all my post because apparently Sustainable was not the right word to use and still -------s like you still have something to say. I don't get it people go out of there way to help people that want to learn beekeeping and the GRUPPY OLD GUYS got to jump in and be so anal {great description take it any way you want} well beekeeping is not that hard guys and all that want to criticize and tell how wrong I am PM me so the rest can get on with the joy of learning beekeeping.


Take note, that I have called you no names. I was disturbed that someone could make what appeared to be an interesting thread totally unreadable for someone who came in later. 

I will let Barry decide how aggressive one can be in PMs and on the Public Forum. And for heaven's sake, work on your spelling!


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)




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## chris bright (Feb 20, 2012)

Beware of beginners luck. Five years? You are a beginner, be prepared for surprises is my advice.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

When life looks like easy street there's danger at your door.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

hpm08161947 said:


> Take note, that I have called you no names. I was disturbed that someone could make what appeared to be an interesting thread totally unreadable for someone who came in later.
> 
> I will let Barry decide how aggressive one can be in PMs and on the Public Forum. And for heaven's sake, work on your spelling!



I agree with Glock, I found your post offensive. Maybe you don't think IMPLYING that someone is a kid, or crazy is not offensive. Then you fall back on the old reliable spelling attack.
Your post provided nothing of value and wasn't even entertaining. I didn't see any private stuff so I won't comment on that, but I can tell you as a non-combatant that you certainly started it...

I like Glock's posts, he openly discusses both his failures, successes and methods which allows an Amateur like me to learn from both his posts and all the responses to his posts.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Personally I usually enjoy both posters. I think the usual internet misunderstandings have conspired to turn the thread around. I am sure that you are both good guys.....give it some thought and let it cool down. We really are all interested in the same stuff.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Robbin said:


> I agree with Glock, I found your post offensive. Maybe you don't think IMPLYING that someone is a kid, or crazy is not offensive. Then you fall back on the old reliable spelling attack.


Yes I agree, I started it. I started it because I was irritated by the missing portions of the thread. It made no sense to me and was taking far to long to decipher. I have made no criticisms of his beekeeping and in fact it appears that he has done an admirable job. But deleting mutliple key portions of what appeared to be an interesting thread is a behavior that I am not familiar with here on BeeSource. I do not know GLOCK, and it does appear that his spelling, sentence structure, and punctuation is that of a very young person.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I for one am happy for you and the success you HAVE had. And I hope the GODS are kind to us both for the education we, and ALL Beekeepers may be about to recieve in 2014


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> When life looks like easy street there's danger at your door.


:thumbsup: That for sure is wisdom.


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## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> When life looks like easy street there's danger at your door.


Best part of the entire thread!!!!!


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

As a new Bee Keep with 2 dead swarms laying on the bottom of my hives I'll throw in my 2 cents. I believe that to most of us newcomers "sustainable" means for how long we can afford to buy packages and the time it takes to go treatment free is as long as it takes till all your bees are dead. But just because we don't have the experience does not mean we cannot contribute something. One thing I learned in my 25 years as a Journeyman Tradesman is, everyone has something to contribute. I learned to listen to my apprentices because I found out that sometimes a different perspective presents new ideas that are better. We get stuck doing the same old, same old and miss great opportunities. Just saying.
Colino


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> When life looks like easy street there's danger at your door.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsmdKLbJDII

Robert Hunter wrote this anthem as an allusive paean to the New Lost City Ramblers -- Mike Seeger, Uncle John Cohen, and Tom Paley. The NLCR introduced Hunter, Garcia to Jug Band music in the very early 60's.

The mysterious opening lines of the third stanza:
-- It's the same story the crow told me
-- It's the only one he know -
Refer both to a song by NLCR and a novelty song by Johnny Horton in 1960.

That song has commentary on this whole misbegotten thread.
A Tom cat was sittin' on a bale of hay
A bull dog was sittin' on the ground
I went and pinched the bull dog's tail
And they went around and around and around
They went around and around.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> When life looks like easy street there's danger at your door.


I'm reminded of this jewel from a local character I know. "Its always darkest before it goes completely black"


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## larrybeach (May 25, 2013)

Glock, do not let the negative comments get to you. Sounds like you are working hard and having good luck with beekeeping.


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

Tough Crowd...

You're doing great.
Sometimes I think people will argue on the Interwebs over anything.
Keep doing what you're doing, seem to be working.
Show the naysayers up with success.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

GLOCK - Your thread on fogging with FGMO and treating with OA is a great contribution to newbies like me.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

GLOCK, I don't comment much on how others keep their bees. Everybody has his or her ways of doing it. I am still very new and is happy that I don't kill all my bees. Something like setting the heat pad to 110F, drowning the workers in syrup creating a big mess inside, etc. As long as you still have bees to keep no matter what raising methods you use, this is sustainable already. If you don't have to keep on buying bees year after year then this is sustainable to me. Just the sight of seeing your bees flying during the early Spring build up is worth the effort and hard work already. Waiting until April to get the packages or nucs is too late for me. The Spring flow is just amazing to see! Imagine all flowers blooming at the same time like almond, peach, and plum while your bees are enjoying their share of your hard work. Keep up the good work. 

They're still flying!


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## bbrowncods (Oct 10, 2012)

Glock, I find humor helps. For instance, don't ever start a story at a party about getting a wisdom tooth pulled. The four wisdom tooth crowd will cut you off at the pass about how getting their teeth pulled was so much worse than your single tooth. It is just human nature.
You could start a thread like this one in 10 years and the 20 year crowd will jump in and cut you off at the pass...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beepro, I keep looking at the right hand photo and can't figure out what those bees are going into. Do you have a photo farther back? What is the curved part?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

scorpionmain said:


> Sometimes I think people will argue on the Interwebs over anything.


Who's arguing? Folks are simply pointing out that declaring sustainability from two years of not buying bees is a premature declaration. That's all. Had Kirk Webster done the same thing folks would have replied similarly. Many of us have had a sense of security about our bees only to suffer great disappointment. That's all.

And then GLOCK took his ball and went home.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> I'm reminded of this jewel from a local character I know. "Its always darkest before it goes completely black"


I believe I'll put this one into the memory bank.....such as it is....for future use.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The bees are going into the 1" entrance hole, the dark spot at the center leading into the bee hive. And the curved part in brown color is the housing to hold up the hole to further reduce the 4" original entrance. It is still cold at this early Spring so I have to reduce the hole to keep them warm at night. At the same time put on a small electric heat pad at night inside the hive so they can start build up for the Spring flow as the queens are laying now. Almond, peach, plum, and boxwood trees are all blooming at the same time that my bees are working on. Pinkish almond flowers, especially are all over the trees. What a beautiful sight.


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Who's arguing? Folks are simply pointing out that declaring sustainability from two years of not buying bees is a premature declaration. That's all. Had Kirk Webster done the same thing folks would have replied similarly. Many of us have had a sense of security about our bees only to suffer great disappointment. That's all.
> 
> And then GLOCK took his ball and went home.


Well, right now it looks like you are arguing about not arguing.
Give it a rest.

This guy has worked hard to accomplish what he has.
No need to cut someone down just cause you don't agree with his definition of Sustainable.

Personally I think, if one doesn't have to buy bees & can replenish losses from with-in their own apiary that's Sustainable.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

scorpionmain said:


> Well, right now it looks like you are arguing about not arguing.
> Give it a rest.
> 
> This guy has worked hard to accomplish what he has.
> ...


I'm arguing? When is replying w/ a suggestion to wait a while before declaring victory arguing? Show me which of my statements were argumentative.

Give it a rest? This Thread would be at permanent rest had you not replied to it. So I should give it a rest?

I don't discount that GLOCK seems to have accomplished his goal, for now. I'm simply suggesting it is a bit early to declare victory. Two years is a relatively short period of time in most any human scenerio, let alone beekeeping.

Which statements of mine were personally critical of GLOCK. I didn't call him a fool or, as he called my friend Herb, an *******. Show me which of my statements were a put down of GLOCK.

So you agree w/ GLOCK on what sustainable means. Good for you. Did I say I didn't? If one can maintain that criteria for ever than I guess that's as good a definition as any. I bet he can't do it, forever. Not that it really matters.

This is discussion, not an argument. It's what we do on beesource. We disagree and discuss. GLOCK took offense when none was offered.


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

"Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon. 
You may be good at chess, but the pigeon is just going to knock all the pieces down, take a crap on the table, and strut around like its victorious."
-Anonymous


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, as if that accurately fits all of the replies on this Thread. Now we are arguing. sheesh


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> When life looks like easy street there's danger at your door.



I printed this one out and hung it on my wall!

Rusty


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

[QUOTE;1057515]So, you treat with OA vapor?

Is that really 'sustainable'?[/QUOTE]

How is it not sustainable?

Tom

Well the first days are the hardest days...


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Who's arguing? Folks are simply pointing out that declaring sustainability from two years of not buying bees is a premature declaration. That's all. Had Kirk Webster done the same thing folks would have replied similarly.


Webster is on here? I thought he was computer illiterate? 

Organic produce farmers still buy seed every year, but are still practicing Sustainable Agriculture. I think "sustainable" means different things to different people. I think in Palmer terms it just means you are not dumping a bunch of revenue filling hives with bees every year. As pointed out he does buy queens for genetic diversity, he is also dependent of huge bags of free rock solid sugar


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Webster is on here? I thought he was computer illiterate? 

I've seen him use a computer. No, he's not computer illiterate but he's wise enough not to let them take over his life...

His web site:
kirkwebster.com


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

TWall said:


> [QUOTE;1057515]So, you treat with OA vapor?
> 
> Is that really 'sustainable'?





> How is it not sustainable?
> 
> Tom
> 
> Well the first days are the hardest days...


It's illegal in the U.S. to use OA as an acaricide. That's why.

Thus, it's not sustainable, even in the broadest sense of the word.

However, I get Glock's point.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I have his site bookmarked. If you click "contact" you will see that he has nothing to do with the operation of the site. He has a webmaster that does all that for him. 

My comment was just my inner smartass escaping. Not meant in anyway to offend.

Many in VT still do not even have internet connections as much of the state isn't wired for fiber-optic. I remember growing up when the first cable TV lines came through, still many areas of the State don't even have that... My in-laws have Dial-up still because that is all that is available short of getting satellite or a cellular hot spot. My first cell phone only had service down in the village because the cell tower was hidden in the steeple of the church. Couldn't use it up on the hill.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

[QUOTE;1059860]It's illegal in the U.S. to use OA as an acaricide. That's why.

Thus, it's not sustainable, even in the broadest sense of the word.

However, I get Glock's point.[/QUOTE]

Here is one definition of sustainable agriculture: http://www.csrees.usda.gov/nea/ag_systems/in_focus/sustain_ag_if_legal.html

It seems to me that OA fits into that definition pretty good.

Tom


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

If he used MAQIIs, which are not only legal, but also 'certified organic', he would be using an organic acid treatment that would allow him to say 'sustainable'.

It's not Glock's fault though.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

bluegrass said:


> I think "sustainable" means different things to different people. I think in Palmer terms it just means you are not dumping a bunch of revenue filling hives with bees every year. As pointed out he does buy queens for genetic diversity, he is also dependent of huge bags of free rock solid sugar


Sustainability isn't the same thing as self sufficiency.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Sustainable is easy enough to look up in a dictionary, this winter will be coming to an end soon and all the bored beekeepers can get back to tending their flocks. There was a few rude comments made to GLOCK, inflammatory comments that he didn't deserve, if it wasn't for spell check my posts would also be a little rough, and just for the record I have also sustained my bees and kept them alive with OAV treatments for a number of years now, if TF wild cards want to turn up their noses at this then all I have to say is try beekeeping in my neck of the woods before striking out as all knowing. GLOCK has earned my respect many times over with his kindness, helpfulness, and sharing, I look forward to his future input on this forum. 

Merrium Webster Definition:

sus·tain·able
adjective \sə-ˈstā-nə-bəl\

: able to be used without being completely used up or destroyed

: involving methods that do not completely use up or destroy natural resources

: able to last or continue for a long time

Full Definition of SUSTAINABLE
1
: capable of being sustained
2
a : of, relating to, or being a method of harvesting or using a resource so that the resource is not depleted or permanently damaged <sustainable techniques> <sustainable agriculture>
b : of or relating to a lifestyle involving the use of sustainable methods <sustainable society>
— sus·tain·abil·i·ty noun
— sus·tain·ably adverb


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

TWall said:


> [QUOTE;1059860]It's illegal in the U.S. to use OA as an acaricide. That's why.
> 
> Thus, it's not sustainable, even in the broadest sense of the word.
> 
> ...


If he used OA in his hives and, sold honey from those hives, and posted about it online, and the USDA was notified by either a reader or a customer.... Then I think it is absolutely not sustainable


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> I've seen him use a computer. No, he's not computer illiterate but he's wise enough not to let them take over his life...
> 
> His web site:
> kirkwebster.com


Don't forget to post the link to: My apologies to EAS 2012

Well, if you were a Vermont beekeeper and read what he says about us, you might feel differently. Neither I nor anyone else I know would do anything to hurt Kirk, or steal from Kirk, or try to force Kirk out of the area. I'm sorry he feels as he does, but he has no right to post his accusations publicly. I don't think wise has anything to do with it. More like convenient. He can say whatever he likes about whomever he wants, and no one can challenge him. Yep, pretty convenient I would say. I've always considered Kirk a friend, still do, and will say nothing against him, only stating the facts. Maybe some day Kirk will realize that no one here in Vermont is against him in any way, and he's hurt many Vermont beekeepers with his accusations.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

http://kirkwebster.com/index.php/my-apology-to-eas-march-2012

He doesn't name anyone though.

My own opinion on sustainable beekeeping is that you don't need any 'philosophy' to make it work, just the right resistant, feral derived stocks.

Everything else is just filler without resistant stock.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

bluegrass said:


> If he used OA in his hives and, sold honey from those hives, and posted about it online, and the USDA was notified by either a reader or a customer.... Then I think it is absolutely not sustainable


I guess you aren't sustainable either, because if the USDA took samples from your honey they would find similar levels of Oxalic Acid in your honey as well.  OA is a naturally occurring substance that stays at similar levels in a hive regardless to whether you put any in there or not. Not to mention that even though OA might be ok to use with honey supers on, most probably use it when they are off anyway.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

rweakley said:


> I guess you aren't sustainable either, because if the USDA took samples from your honey they would find similar levels of Oxalic Acid in your honey as well.  OA is a naturally occurring substance that stays at similar levels in a hive regardless to whether you put any in there or not. Not to mention that even though OA might be ok to use with honey supers on, most probably use it when they are off anyway.


They don't have to take samples when it was publicly admitted to online. I don't care if he uses it or not, I was just explaining why OA treatments being illegal could make for a non-sustainable operation. Adee was fined a few years ago for using illegal treatments in their hives. The 14K they had to pay is nothing for an operation of their size with the money to hire good legal defense, but a small scale guy???


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

bluegrass said:


> They don't have to take samples when it was publicly admitted to online. I don't care if he uses it or not, I was just explaining why OA treatments being illegal could make for a non-sustainable operation. Adee was fined a few years ago for using illegal treatments in their hives. The 14K they had to pay is nothing for an operation of their size with the money to hire good legal defense, but a small scale guy???


So as long as a person keeps their mouth shut about using OA for varroa THEN they will be sustainable. Got it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> It's illegal in the U.S. to use OA as an acaricide.


According to what legal authority?


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## Rob73 (Apr 19, 2009)

I seriously need to learn to raise queens so I can get out of the package bee purchasing program. Every year has its up swings as well as low points. I just havent had enough strong hives that I feel comfortable about taking their resources to start queen rearing. 

One of these days though....... Thats my goal anyway.

Rob


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> According to what legal authority?


Pesticides are regulated by the EPA. OA is not labeled for use in Beehives, which makes it illegal to do so. aka off label use.

But you already know that and put this up as a rhetorical.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Rob73 said:


> I seriously need to learn to raise queens so I can get out of the package bee purchasing program. Every year has its up swings as well as low points. I just havent had enough strong hives that I feel comfortable about taking their resources to start queen rearing.
> 
> One of these days though....... Thats my goal anyway.
> 
> Rob


You are in Meca for good Feral stock... Some of the best stock I have ever kept came out of houses, barns, laundromats and trees all across KY. Get out there and get you some.... I will even buy them from you


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

bluegrass said:


> You are in Meca for good Feral stock... Some of the best stock I have ever kept came out of houses, barns, laundromats and trees all across KY. Get out there and get you some.... I will even buy them from you


I moved out of KY in 2010 and still receive about 50 cals a year for bee removals.


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## Rob73 (Apr 19, 2009)

No kiddin? I have caught a few swarms the last few years. The ones I caught didnt stay, so I only go get em if its convenient for me. Or if they just dont know what else to do, I will at least catch them and get them out of their hair. 

I have plans to build swarm traps out at the edge of the field this year, hoping I can lure a few in here at the house


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Rob73 said:


> No kiddin? I have caught a few swarms the last few years. The ones I caught didnt stay, so I only go get em if its convenient for me. Or if they just dont know what else to do, I will at least catch them and get them out of their hair.
> 
> I have plans to build swarm traps out at the edge of the field this year, hoping I can lure a few in here at the house


Trap outs and cutouts are your best bet. I removed a few from abandoned houses, after watching the colony for a year or two to make sure they were consistently there. Anything that I wasn't sure was a true feral I charged a fee to cover my expenses. 

Drive around and look for abandoned farms or buildings. I never checked a run down house without finding a colony in it. 

If I stuck at it I might have gotten a TV show instead of Turtleman


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## Rob73 (Apr 19, 2009)

I will try that. I know more than a few good places like that! 

A few years ago, a guy pushed a tree full of bees over with a dozer. He didnt want to kill em, so I went over and cut it all out and put in a hive. It was a mess. It was about 105 outside. There was no shade. The comb was a fragile, melted mess. I tried my best to tie the comb into frames, but I will say it once more, it was a mess. 

I did get them out of the log and into a hive away from where they were working. The next day started a two week period where I was at work every day. I work 12 hours a day & with driving to and fro, I didnt have any time to check em. When I was able to, the small hive beetles had taken a hold & ran most of the colony off.

I look back and see all of my rookie mistakes & things that I should have done differently. It was a shame too. Nice dark, gentle bees. I was somewhat un prepared for the task. It was either I did something then, or they push it in a pile and burn it. At the time, I did my best, I guess. 

Now, I have boxes & bottoms ready to go & a better idea of what I need to do. I am ready for em this year!

Rob


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I got a log like that before. I cut the log off so only to take the area that the bees were in. I took it home and stood it up then placed a hive body on top. Over the course of a few months I would smoke the bees up from the bottom and cut a few inches off of the bottom of the log with a chainsaw, progressively forcing the colony to move up into the box.


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## Rob73 (Apr 19, 2009)

Sweet idea.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> Over the course of a few months I would smoke the bees up from the bottom and cut a few inches off of the bottom of the log with a chainsaw, progressively forcing the colony to move up into the box.


What do you suppose would happen if you just turned the log upside down with the box on top?


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Rob73 said:


> I seriously need to learn to raise queens so I can get out of the package bee purchasing program. Every year has its up swings as well as low points. I just havent had enough strong hives that I feel comfortable about taking their resources to start queen rearing. One of these days though....... Thats my goal anyway. Rob


Rob73. Start with just making just 1. Take a frame with a queen cell and raise 1 queen in a nuc. That is 1 less package to buy. Buy good queens and make queens from you own bees. Soon you'll have more bees than you know.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Acebird said:


> What do you suppose would happen if you just turned the log upside down with the box on top?


They would abandoned all the brood in the log and I would loose that entire population. With gradually forcing them up by removing space at the bottom I give them time for brood to hatch and the brood nest to move upwards until it is in the box.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You had to suit up quite a few times and it couldn't have been that easy to cut the log.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Acebird said:


> You had to suit up quite a few times and it couldn't have been that easy to cut the log.


A hollow maple log cuts quite easily and quickly with a 65 cc chainsaw. I didn't have to suit up at all. The log was strapped to a fence post in my yard so I would blow smoke in at the bottom and lob off a few inches. Kick out the piece cut and the log settles down to it's new base...

Don't over think everything Brian


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> Don't over think everything Brian


It is a curse for most engineers.


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