# Africanized Bees: Friend or Foe?



## KatGold (Jan 18, 2012)

Hey there my so-much-more-knowledgeable-than-I friends.

I have been charged with writing an article on decriminalizing AHBs. I've tried searching for Africanized or AHB on this forum, but there is so much information and I am having a hard time finding what I need. 

I am looking for is the real threat of AHBs. I aim to separate fact from fear. 

Sometimes, I suspect it is mostly hype (because scary sells more news time than mundane). But I certainly know other beeks and have seen the writings of many of you who have experienced AHBs.

How do we know when it is really AHB or just a hot EHB hive? I have had hot hives that were not queenright and became perfectly fine after they requeened. Someone I know in town had a hot hive that needed to be removed and rehabilitated last year. He assumed they were AHBs, but really, how could we know?

I've read that the only way to really know is under a microscope. Without a microscope, can we really know? Are their behaviors really that telling, or is it possible that we (even we beeks) scapegoat them whenever we encounter a hot EHB hive?

Please help me sort this out. While it may be obvious that I am rooting for them a bit, please know that I am coming at this with a 100 percent open mind. I am looking for the truth, not a cherry picked answer.

Please, point me in the right direction.

Thanks!


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## postman (Jun 2, 2013)

KatGold,

As you too are from Texas, I consider AHB like the pitbull breed, I aint gonna risk it.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

For me, here in the "heart", supposedly, of AHB territory in the desert Southwest, I've learned of certain behaviors to expect from colonies that are "potentially" Africanized. However, I have never actually had any colony, "tested" for Africanization, via measurement of body parts, something called morphometrics, nor DNA testing. I can't actually justify such testing, because I no longer tolerate colonies that exhibit any likely undesirable traits, no matter if they're Africanized, or not.

Of course, there is a good chance that there are African genetics in many of my colonies (or not), but for me that doesn't matter, as long as few, if any, undesirable traits are exhibited. The artificial selection pressure is on. Perhaps most of the undesirable traits will eventually become much less common.


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## Bees In Miami (Nov 30, 2012)

We have them here, too. University of Florida has an extensive Apiary presence, and has very informative write ups. Try these links. 

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/mg113

http://solutionsforyourlife.ufl.edu/hot_topics/environment/africanized_honey_bees.html

http://entnemdept.ifas.ufl.edu/afbee/

I am sure there are many more...these were just the first three. Google University of Florida Africanized, and you will get many hits. Good luck! I'd love to see the write up when you are done!!! We have the same problem here, and they are finally realizing it's going to be something we are going to just have to learn to live with. I have a couple testy hives, but I think it's more a matter of strength in numbers. I have not done any DNA tests, either, but with open mated queens, I am sure the possibility is there for some AHB genetics.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

I had difficulties with my bee-club. They insisted that all feral/survival bees in SoCal are Africanized. Thus, I must re-queen my feral beehives. I refused to do so because the whole point was to preserve local genetics. My Africanized bees are living within 10-20' from the doorsteps of our house for two years already. After serious disturbance (inspection), a few girls patrol our backdoor for a few days. The hive, which was more "sensitive" last year, is docile this year. The tiny swarm I adopted, grew up and is quite protective now (good, they have something to protect). I am sure that all my bees have some African genes - I would not imagine working them without protective gear. From another hand - they are treatment-free for 4 years and so far co-exist with varroa. It seems to me that they make brood-brakes to control varroa. They do not swarm easily (no swarms so far). I have my own (?) theory regarding varroa - it seems to me that more "aggressive" bees have better resistance to varroa. My explanation is that it is not aggression, but protection - they protect their home from varroa in the same way as they protect it from me. I heard that varroa-resistant Russian bees are quite temperamental.


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## KatGold (Jan 18, 2012)

Chrezha, this is interesting. You don't treat. Are are frameless? I thought the only way to not treat was by going frameless.


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## Arkwood (May 18, 2013)

Is the chance of someone or animals death or being severely injured worth keeping AHB? In the world of greed, there will be people who will say yes and try to down play it. yes, statistics are low but as I said, is one persons life worth it, what if it's your childs life instead of the stranger 2 states over? 

However Brazil seems to love their bees but again, money is involved as they are now #7 or #4 depending in honey production and that was their goal. 

What does AHB mean to the backyard keeper? I surely can't keep AHB in my subdivision. I do not want to be responsible for someone being injured.

There are positives and negatives and adjustments that will need to be made. 

There will be ranges just as there are in Africa for the AHB however the question is, will mixing with the EHB allow them to have a larger range than normal?

I'm not an expert, just my thoughts as I too have thought about this subject. Let's just hope we can find a way to calm them down a few notches. I don't mind having to wear a vail and all but I don't want to be attacked because they are just in a bad mood one day or have to stay indoors all day until the calm down.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

If there is one thing we have learned about the integration of AHB genetics into our domestic pool is that you never really know what to expect. Clearly the more aggressive bees are found in the more arid areas of the southwest yet many calm apparently non-AHB hives continue to be managed in those areas. I think what we are seeing is a real mix of bees emerging and that may be a good thing overall. Not sure I agree with Sergey's theory for their more apparent ability to withstand varroa. Their inherent advantages, as I understand it, relate to their propensity to swarm and their slightly shorter gestation period rather than their aggressiveness. This constant swarming activity and movement may not be conducive to high varroa infestations.


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## KatGold (Jan 18, 2012)

Respectfully, Arkwood, that's getting a smidge off-point. 

And I only bring that up because I don't want this conversation to turn into something like, "How does the life of a child compare to the profits of a beekeeper." (You'd be amazed at some of my neighborhood list serve conversations. They start so innocent and sometimes get so nasty. It's markedly worse in the summer--I think any 10 cent statistician could show a direct correlation between high temps in the weather and high temps in the list serve insanity :lpf

Granted, that is a perfectly valid line of discussion, just not what I'm talking about.

I haven't had a chance to google the Florida papers, but I think that will be interesting. Here's what I am looking for:


What's the truth?
What's the myth?
How's the future likely to play out (gentler AHBs or more aggressive feral bees)?
How do we look at this academically?

Thanks to you and everyone for your input!


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

KatGold said:


> Chrezha, this is interesting. You don't treat. Are are frameless? I thought the only way to not treat was by going frameless.


Yes, they are foundationless and actually "frameless" - I am using top bars in Lang boxes.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> ... Not sure I agree with Sergey's theory for their more apparent ability to withstand varroa. Their inherent advantages, as I understand it, relate to their propensity to swarm and their slightly shorter gestation period rather than their aggressiveness. This constant swarming activity and movement may not be conducive to high varroa infestations.


 Jim, when I was talking about my "theory" I meant any bees, not AHBs. Based on the responses on beesource and elsewhere - it looks like there is some correlation between protective behavior and ability to defend themselves against varroa. But, it is just my thoughts  definetely not the science.


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## Arkwood (May 18, 2013)

KatGold said:


> Sometimes, I suspect it is mostly hype (because scary sells more news time than mundane). But I certainly know other beeks and have seen the writings of many of you who have experienced AHBs.
> 
> How do we know when it is really AHB or just a hot EHB hive? I have had hot hives that were not queenright and became perfectly fine after they requeened. Someone I know in town had a hot hive that needed to be removed and rehabilitated last year. He assumed they were AHBs, but really, how could we know?
> 
> ...


I was watching a Youtube on AHB a few days back. It had a clip in the video about a man that died from his bees. I guess at first they thought it might be AHB but turns out it wasn't. Let me go see if I can find it for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gstt3XlNXN4#! (STarting at 41:08)

It's a good watch. You can also call University of Florida and other places that might be able to help answer some of your questions.


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## KatGold (Jan 18, 2012)

Wow! Wow! Wow! I turned it on just now. Thanks!

Yeah, sadly a Texas man just died last week or two (I read about it here on beesource and elsewhere in the news). 

Unrelated, I also just found out that my cousin suffered a bee attack last week (he is fine). Here's what I heard from my darling, but sometimes fact-challenged, aunt:

*Did you hear? Your cousin Johnny was attacked by killer bees! He cut down a tree and split their hive in half. The hive was so huge they said it had 50 pounds of honey! Or was it 30? Can you imagine how many bees it would take to make THAT MUCH honey? He was hospitalized where a team of doctors removed each stinger! Maybe they were wasps. Do wasps make honey? No? Okay, bees. KILLER BEES! Can bees do that? I guess they can. They did. Or maybe they were wasps. Anyway, I told his mother how dangerous they are and that you keep bees and have to wear a special suit every time you step into your backyard. I told her it's white.

*I'm happy my cousin is safe, but honestly, I have no idea what really happened to him. But it's quite likely that most people in my large, extended family will share the story a little more crazily each time. I shudder to hear what the story will sound like in 42 hours. The timing of this event is interesting and it shows in a personal level what I suspect could be happening in a larger scale.

Yes, auntie, my jacket is white.


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## KatGold (Jan 18, 2012)

cerezha said:


> actually "frameless" - I am using top bars in Lang boxes.


Interesting. I have two TBHs, but I don't get honey from them. They are too short. But I recently acquired a Langstroth and removed all the foundations and replaced with popsicle sticks. There are two Dadant deep hive bodies. I wonder if I'd have been better off with shallows or mediums. I don't have beeen in that on yet. We'll see how it goes.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

_"I have been charged with writing an article on decriminalizing AHBs"_ Sounds to me like you have an agenda and are not really as open-minded as you claim.

_"Is the chance of someone or animals death or being severely injured worth keeping AHB?"_ and _"Respectfully, Arkwood, that's getting a smidge off-point."_ Actually, I would say that Arkwood is exactly on point.

I am dealing with a nuc I bought from a beekeeper in New Mexico. In 4 weeks this hive has gone from a normal temperament to extremely defensive. This hive has stung numerous people in the last week. I can not go within 20 feet of this hive, without bees pouring out of the entrance and attacking me. Even at night. I am not talking about head butts or warning fly-bys, but rather latching onto my veil and attempting to sting it over and over. My few bee tools that have somewhat soft surfaces, such as a rubber handle, etc., are now covered with hundreds of stingers from this hive. I live on a large lot. No one came come to my house without being buzzed by bees, even when they are 100' from the hive. When I spend more than a few minutes in any one room, there are bees bouncing off the window screen trying to get in to get me. I have multiple hives. No other hive of mine is nearly so defensive/aggressive. I had no such problems unitil I brought this particular hive into my apiary

Keeping a hive like this is totally irresponsible and unethical. Such hives throw off drones harboring hot genetcs which breed with local virgin queens thereby passing their hot temperament into new hives, which jeopardizes anyone who happens to live close to one of these newly minted hot hives. An experienced beekeeper can deal with such aggressive hive, but it is totally unfair to expose the general public who know nothing about beekeeping to such bees.

Within 12 hours of learning just how bad this hive is, I moved it to a remote location and started requeening it by killing the queen. The original queen was small and dark. There is no definitive proof that this hive is africanized, however, whether it is africanized is irrelevant. Us beekeepers have a duty to the general public to not create aggressive dangerous hives, and to deal effectively with such hives that we may come to possess. Since AHB are well known to have extremely defensive/aggressive traits, such genetics should be avoided.

JMHO


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## KatGold (Jan 18, 2012)

Well, still I see that as a different topic. I think we have two basic themes here: 

1) What is the truth behind AHBs (how do we know who they are, are all hot bees AHB, what's really going on), and 

2) Should people keep AHBs in their backyards or other bee yard. (Which, in all fairness could be extrapolated into: if I have hot bees that are not AHBs, then what's going on? How do I calm them? How do I keep them from becoming calm? etc).

To me, these are distinctly different and equally worthy topics. Knowledge is power. The first theme give us knowledge, and with that knowledge we can better discuss the second theme, which is power.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

_What is the truth behind AHBs (how do we know who they are, are all hot bees AHB, what's really going on)"_

I guess I am not understanding you: Are you saying that it is questionable whether AHBs are extremly defensive/aggressive? When you say "Africanized Bee: Friend or Foe" and you want to "decriminalize AHBs", it sounds like your position is that there is nothing wrong with AHBs . . . ? What am I misunderstanding?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Shinbone…I think you are right on the topic…..I simply think you aren’t providing the answers that the op was hoping to get.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

beemandan - you could be right. Maybe we will get more clarification from the OP. No doubt I have a strong opinion on the subject.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

shinbone said:


> beemandan - you could be right.


If someone knows how to get in touch with deknow and can direct him to this thread...I believe that he will have the answers that the op is hoping to get.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have seen bees of all temperaments for the last four decades. Not all of the viscous ones were Africanized (some predated "Africanization") not all of the nice ones were European. But the Africanized tend to be more defensive than the Europeans. The problem is that generalizations are not always helpful. I think it's irresponsible to keep viscous bees.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

They are friends to those who need pollination in the south. enemies to those who run into a nest someplace. And for Beekeepers... (No one like to keep a dog who bites him all the time) I enjoy being able to work my bees without a shirt during the summer.

If their aggressiveness can drop they would and are another valuable source for increasing the depth of our EHB's genetic diversity.

So yes and no.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

In addition to the fact that AHB tend to be more defensive….they will occasionally attack in huge numbers….thousands at the same time and target. Something I’ve never seen an EHB colony do. They don’t always attack in this fashion but when they do it is dangerous…especially to confined pets, livestock, disabled people, elderly or children…any creature that is unable or doesn’t know to run away..
Knowingly keeping AHB anywhere other than the most remote location is irresponsible….in my opinion.


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## Moccasin (May 18, 2010)

These bee races out of our common honeybee were invented in 1700's. We did not even understand honeybees then. My old books from then call the Queen "The King bee". Where are the Caucasian queens for sale... Gone. Maybe they were not real either. The only thing people agreed on them was that they used too much propolis..No one was even sure of their color... As far as your mythical "killerbees" You are not sure what color they are in their pure form nor are you sure if they are Apis Scutellata or Apis Adonsii.They are just common honeybees wherever they are. Only Apis Dorsata or Apis Cerana would create a true hybrid...This is just propaganda. Just sayin.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

It is commonly accepted that the main reason that AHB’s seem to survive varroa without treating is that they swarm frequently and abscond at the drop of a hat….resulting in extended, frequent broodless periods. Having evolved in a more tropical climate where nectar is available year round, winter stores were not an issue….so year round swarming/absconding didn’t result in the death of a colony. As a result, they tend to be poor honey producers. Another side effect of this behavior is that their genetics get spread more rapidly throughout an area where the climate allows them to thrive….and as a result of that….their genetics dominate in those places.
I, personally, don’t see anything positive in that gene pool.
Yeah shinbone....I have pretty strong opinions on the subject too.....and not, I believe, what the op had hoped for.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

KatGold said:


> Interesting. I have two TBHs, but I don't get honey from them. They are too short....


 You may look on "long hives", they have a different designs, the one I am using is just 2x long deep Lang box. The advantage of this, you could super it. Also - universal Lang-style hardware. I find that deep-size TBs need some side support - otherwise, they are too heavy and collapse inside the hive.


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## Arkwood (May 18, 2013)

I have a question. 

Dr. Kerr was the one who brought over the AHB to Brazil and spent time trying to calm them down but was unsuccessful. Others have tried as well in many different ways and are (As I know of) also unsuccessful at calming the AHB down. (see below)

I'm sure most of us know or heard of Bee Weaver. They admit their stock was at one time compromised by the AHB and spent some generations calming them down. I'm curious how they were able to do this where others could not? I may just ask Bee Weaver but thought someone here might know or have some insight? 

Granted some people claim Bee Weaver Bees can be HOT but for the most part I never heard of Bee Weaver Bees attacking in the thousands... One show I watched stated requeening 4 generations still didn't help. So I am just curious...

For the record I own Bee Weaver Bees and so far am happy overall.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

beemandan said:


> ...Knowingly keeping AHB anywhere other than the most remote location is irresponsible….in my opinion.


 I think,nobody would argue on this, but the question is how to determine that this is AHB? What is criterion? I guess, the only good approach would be to do a DNA test. I am not familiar with procedure - it is easy available, anybody know? Is it expensive? 

I like Michel Bush approach: "I think it's irresponsible to keep viscous bees. " - in this way, the point is actual behavior instead of origin (Africa or Europe). There are many voices on beesource (Jim Lion and others), who systematically eliminates "viscous" traits. "Contaminating" the genes-pool with undesirable traits is not good. As usual, the question is where the threshold - when bees considered to be excessively aggressive and needs to be eliminated?


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## Moccasin (May 18, 2010)

I used Weaver queens in the 90's. I lived in Texas until 99. I visited with Mr. Weaver in Navasota before he passed on. I used his Buckfast Queens for a while. He just open mated. I quit buying queens when I saw he didn't really get his drones from Buckfast abby in Scotland.Nothing is done to breed calmer bees at the time I was there. Healthy happy bees are always calm. The Quarentines ended in Texas because the bees did not become more dangerous as time went on. Some of his Buckfast queens almost stung me to death before the first killer bee was blamed on the old man's death in Hidalgo. It isn't breeding it's just the way things go.Some of the Weaver family business uses Australian package bees too. It is a big family in Navasota Texas.


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## Moccasin (May 18, 2010)

Let me get this right... All of the honeybees I have ever seen are calm and productive no matter what you want to call them.. Unless the Queen dies or the bees have been messed with too much or the weather is bad ,or maybe it is too late in the evening to work them. I was workin in rain in an out apiary cutting queen cells when I got stung the most. I used to cut cells every 9 days regardless of weather back then..(stupid of me yes).


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## Moccasin (May 18, 2010)

Oh , I did not mean the man in Hidalgo who died was Mr. Weaver.. That was the first killer bee death in Texas, a 93 year old man on a tipped over riding lawnmower.Some say he just had a heart attack and probably got stung by a wasp while mowing,but you know .


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Another aspect of African bees, the killer bees (not AHB) is that they are basically wild - I mean, nobody (at least in US) is willingly keep them. Wild insects are wild insects. They could attack people/animal and even kill them. It is my understanding that most casualties proven to be from AB are when somebody destroy wild AB-hive...  

We have mountain lions in the mountains - so far they killed 2 (?) people. If somebody purposely would keep mountain lion at home - sure, it could eat the whole family... someday. 

When we have deal with AHBs - it is a mix of genes and it is difficult to predict what will happens. I think, every beekeeper is responsible to do not spread undesirable traits such as excessive aggressiveness. The question is where threshold is?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> but for the most part I never heard of Bee Weaver Bees attacking in the thousands... 

I had some that attacked me by the tens of thousands... so now you have heard of them... They poured out of the hive while approaching the hive from the back. They covered my veil where I couldn't see.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

When a hive issues a large scale attack with minimal or no provocation, that, to me, is nasty-scary.

Michael - just curoius, how did you deal with this hive?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> I had some that attacked me by the tens of thousands... so now you have heard of them...


What makes this especially problematic is that the same hive won't always attack in that fashion. If you have a colony with Africanized genetics...they may be somewhat aggressive one day....and boom...the next day the same hive empties in a full scale attack. And this is what sets the Africanized apart from the overly defensive EHB.
And I agree....it is irresponsible to keep any overly aggressive bees....and triply dangerous and irresponsible to knowingly keep AHB.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael - just curoius, how did you deal with this hive? 

http://bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Michael - good info. Thanks!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

beemandan said:


> And I agree....it is irresponsible to keep any overly aggressive bees....and triply dangerous and irresponsible to knowingly keep AHB.


I worry constantly about this. In certain conditions even normally calm bees can really get aggressive. A few years ago we had a yard that was holding 100+ hives temporarily and we decided to go in there and put on a second story deep and a feed. Shortly after we got there a storm cloud came up, the bees began robbing and the whole yard got pretty chaotic as we were scrambling to get done and get the heck out of there. In the midst of it all I looked across the pasture and about 50 yards away was a young woman headed our way with two young children. I smoked the bees away from me as best I could and went to meet her half way with a warning not to come any closer. She told me she just wanted to show her kids that the bees were really gentle and the kids didnt need to worry about them. I said well I prefer that they did worry just enough to keep a little distance. That normally the bees go about their business without any aggression at all but that we tend to stir them up a bit when we are working with them. Thankfully they retreated without incident. Whew!


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## Arkwood (May 18, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> > but for the most part I never heard of Bee Weaver Bees attacking in the thousands...
> 
> I had some that attacked me by the tens of thousands... so now you have heard of them... They poured out of the hive while approaching the hive from the back. They covered my veil where I couldn't see.


Michael. Out of curiosity and if you can remember what year did this attack happen? Also how many feet away were you from the hive when you realized an attack was on? Was it a few bees at first and the closer you came the worse it got or was it just all of a sudden it was on!?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael. Out of curiosity and if you can remember what year did this attack happen?

2001

> Also how many feet away were you from the hive when you realized an attack was on?

There were several occasions before I worked out how to requeen them. The first time it was when I popped the top. The next time it was 10 yard behind the hive approaching it...

>Was it a few bees at first and the closer you came the worse it got or was it just all of a sudden it was on!? 

They were pouring out of the hive at me when I was 10 yards out...


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## Arkwood (May 18, 2013)

Thanks Michael. I see you are in Nebraska and I'm guessing this is where it happened. How long did you have the bees for? I'm curious if you re-queened before winter or if this hive survived a winter or 2. thanks


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> I worry constantly about this. In certain conditions even normally calm bees can really get aggressive.


It’s on my worry list too. Add to the fact that any number of things can crank up the, otherwise, most docile hive….that there are always some aggressive bees in most operations. I have a few yards that I can requeen with easygoing genetics…but the next generation will invariably be mean. I’ve chalked it up to an aggressive bunch of ferals in the neighborhood. I keep thinking that if I keep requeening that one day those gentle genetics will get a foothold….but after nearly ten years…….it hasn’t happened.
I think that all we can do is make our best effort to have the least dangerous bees possible…..then hope it works out.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

To the OP: It's true that any colony of EHB can theoretically become aggressive for a myriad of reasons, and it's also true that a lot of "killer bee" attacks are arbitrarily assumed to be AHB based on nothing more than the fact someone was stung a whole lot and/or killed. And that I imagine it's possible to find a colony of placid AHB now and again.

However, the above notwithstanding, to the best of my knowledge the famed aggressiveness of the Africanized hybrid is generally *not* an urban legend or exaggeration, but is an observed and predictable behavior of the AHB.

Because of that I'm afraid I couldn't recommend normalizing the intentional keeping of AHB in the US at this time.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

melliferal said:


> ...Because of that I'm afraid I couldn't recommend normalizing the intentional keeping of AHB in the US at this time.


 It is official (I was told at our bee-club) that bees in SoCal are africanized. I have no idea who is official - you may need to do some research on this matter if you do care. My point is that all feral/survival/free mating bees in SoCal are africanized. Similar situation is in Texas, I believe. So, should all these bees eradicated?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I don't know about eradicated, but anyone intentionally keeping AHBs is doing us beekeepers and the public-at-large a disservice.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

cerezha said:


> It is official (I was told at our bee-club) that bees in SoCal are africanized. I have no idea who is official - you may need to do some research on this matter if you do care. My point is that all feral/survival/free mating bees in SoCal are africanized. Similar situation is in Texas, I believe. So, should all these bees eradicated?


Should all feral colonies be eradicated? No. And I don't think it's scientifically accurate to say that all feral bees in SoCal are AHB.

However, if you catch a swarm there, and note that the bees are highly aggressive once established, I believe any responsible and conscientious beekeeper ought to requeen immediately without regard to any potential "survival" characteristics AHB might possess. Aggressive colonies are a public nuisance and a safety hazard; their survivability becomes a negative trait.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

cerezha said:


> Similar situation is in Texas, I believe. So, should all these bees eradicated?


Is it your opinion that beekeepers should do absolutely nothing? Urban, suburban and country beekeepers simply allow whatever level of aggressive behavior naturally occurs? Toss out any regard for safety of family, friends, neighbors, pets and livestock? Is this your recommendation? 
I think beekeepers should take every precaution practical to make sure that their colonies are headed by a non AHB queen.....


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

melliferal said:


> t's also true that a lot of "killer bee" attacks are arbitrarily assumed to be AHB based on nothing more than the fact someone was stung a whole lot and/or killed.


What makes you think this?
To my knowledge bee samples from any serious bee attacks on humans and often on livestock or pets are DNA tested for Africanized genetics....at least that's the case in GA....and I doubt that we are on the leading edge of this.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

First of all "eradicating all the bees" isnt a viable solution. The larger issue that beekeepers need to stress is that they are the solution to the problem and not the cause. We beekeepers dont want AHB any more than a non beekeeper does. It has been shown that non AHB hives can be managed in areas containing AHB, people posting here on Beesource are a testament to that. The problem is rarely the managed hives but rather the unmanaged ones.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> So, should all these bees eradicated? 

Anytime you start trying to kill off the feral bees you will make a vacuum that will be filled by the AHB. Unless you discriminate between aggressive bees and non-aggressive bees you will cause the problem you are trying to prevent...


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

beemandan said:


> What makes you think this?
> To my knowledge bee samples from any serious bee attacks on humans and often on livestock or pets are DNA tested for Africanized genetics....at least that's the case in GA....and I doubt that we are on the leading edge of this.


The fact that genetic testing takes time, but "Africanized" bee attacks/deaths are usually reported in the news as AHB attacks the day of.


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## Moccasin (May 18, 2010)

In the past the only test that was used was called "FABIS" It was a measurement of comb size if present with the swarm or if no comb present the bees were measured. Any of the bees measuring smaller than bees raised on normal sized foundation were positive based solely on the percentage of small sized bees to large. A further test could resume if required but it was in their best interest to find them so. I lived in Texas during the quarantines and killer bee traplines. FABIS Test google it.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

beemandan said:


> Is it your opinion that beekeepers should do absolutely nothing? Urban, suburban and country beekeepers simply allow whatever level of aggressive behavior naturally occurs? ...


 I meant that in many cases even beekeepers use AHB as a synonym for killer bees, which, I believe is not accurate. My point was that formally, most of SoCal bees (and probably Texas) have some african genes (tested positive), but it is not necessary means that all those bees are "killer bees". If I have 4 hives of the feral bees withing 10-20 feet from my house in Santa Monica - do you really think that these are truly "killer bees"? I think, we have to distinguish between African bees (killer bees) and AHB. AHB are not "killer bees". Nevertheless, yes - we shall select against aggressive behavior, AHB or EHB.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Thanks Michael. I see you are in Nebraska and I'm guessing this is where it happened. How long did you have the bees for?

A year and a half at that point.

> I'm curious if you re-queened before winter or if this hive survived a winter or 2. thanks 

They had all already survived one Nebraska winter.

I think the concept of genetic testing is a waste of time and money. If the bees are mean we need to take them out of the gene pool by requeening or destroying them. (In the wild it may make sense to exterminate them since it's not practical to requeen them). It is aggressiveness we need to be selecting against and that is not that hard, expensive, or time consuming to measure.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Can't believe I missed this thread... I live in the supposed heart of AHB land and survive quite well using local feral bees. I agree with most of wht Mr. Bush says about mean bees. I don't think we should worry about testing, just requeen the mean ones. Where I live if you test, they all show up as African, not nescessarily Brazilian, but African nonetheless. I tested mine religiously for years. You guys would be shocked if you tested your domestic bees - I was. A lot of them you would never be able to tell apart from domestic bees except for the fact that they survive with no meds and very little help from the beekeeper. They can also pack in the honey too.

When I first started keeping bees and doing removals, I was deathly afraid of "Africanized" bees. I did a fair amount of research and found that through genetic studies on our feral population, 25% or more were pre-existing in the desert Southwest - brought over by the Spanish (remnants of AM Iberiensis and AM Intermissa which they kept at the time). It has been suggested that up to 68% of feral bees in some areas of the Southwest have this ancestry. 

Killer bees? I think all the fear is misplaced and many were already here. Yes, there are Brazilian Scutellata hybrids, but those are down in Mexico. The ones that make their way up into the temperate north express the assimilated genetics for Black Bees, and resemble them in many ways. They assimilated the nuclear genetics of the black bee when they came up through Mexico and encountered the previosly mentioned Iberiensis honeybee, at least that is the theory. This is the most beneficial survival trait for our climate. the ones I have encountered certainly bear no resemblance to the bees described in most USDA articles on the subject. They resemble just about ANY feral bee - black, yellow or otherwise. The best way to look at them is not that they are a separate bee race, but are a throwback to the primordial feral-ness our current bees have been bred away from, much like a wild feral hog.

So as they head north, they are slowly turning into a hardy form of Black Bee - at least that is what the data appears to show, and there are now places with thriving feral bee populations where there were none before after the initial crash of the feral Blacks and the invasion of mites.

I also think it is folly for us to try and eliminate or change them on a full scale. They may play a part in the future as they are currently evolving for survival at all costs. Our current domestic bees are not evolving based on these factors and are being manipulated for our reasoning.


Also - the current nuclear DNA test is not accurate. It simply say -African Yes/No- and is based off of the Scutellata DNA structure. A lot of other bee races show up as a false positive in this test. Iberiensis is one of them.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Anytime you start trying to kill off the feral bees you will make a vacuum that will be filled by the AHB. Unless you discriminate between aggressive bees and non-aggressive bees you will cause the problem you are trying to prevent...


This is a highly significant statement that we all should heed. If you want to wipe out the africanized bees, you would have to wipe out all bees and then start over. This is simply not possible.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

That statement also implies they are something "different" from regular bees. This is not the case - they are simply wilder more feral bees than regular bees - even the scutellata from Africa. Ours is just about the only country where they see them as an alien species. Everywhere else just sees them as bees. 

This is not the first time they have been here, and not the first time the honeybee genome has changed in this country. I think it is telling that most states have cancelled or significantly reduced research and testing for these bees. It is obviously not the problem it was hyped up to be. My opinion - and this will make many people angry - is that they have been hyped up and are still being hyped up to support several industries - pest control, and bee selling mostly. The rest is hype. They are out there, but they are not nearly the problem they have been made out to be, and a lot of good survivor stock is being eliminated and replaced with weaker stock to avoid them.

Something else most people do not know about these bees - Dr. Kerr was a civil rights activist and much of the hype about these bees was ginned up by the Brazilian dictatorship to retaliate against his protesting torture and rape. In a way we are carrying this on by continuing to see them as "killer bees". I think 45 years of this is long enough. Yeah they are there, but they have really just brought the wild back into the honeybee that was bred out for so many years. That all that has really happened. How are they different from the German Black Bees of old? They are probably better behaved.


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## Arkwood (May 18, 2013)

I think for the longest time and still part of me believes that no matter what, if you get close to an AHB hive and they will attack, I probably believed the hype, just as many people are raised to fear snakes and that a good snake is a dead snake. THere comes a point in ones life (Not everyones) where you have to stop being ignorant. I guess over the past month I have been trying to understand and educate myself about the AHB. SO as ignorant as this may sound, when opening a AHB hive do they have good days?


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Paul McCarty said:


> Can't believe I missed this thread... I live in the supposed heart of AHB land and survive quite well using local feral bees. I agree with most of wht Mr. Bush says about mean bees. I don't think we should worry about testing, just requeen the mean ones.


This I believe is what most people do and it's a pretty sound policy. Anytime a colony starts showing enhanced aggression, there's no point in bothering to test it - it's not like you would be maintaining a violent bee just because they don't test as Africanized anyway. Requeen out of hand.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

You are correct Melliferal. In total agreement about requeening - and to answer your question Arkwood, I do removals on these bees very regularly. Some are mean, others tame as kittens. Granted, we only have hybrids in my temperate region, but for every mean hive I run across, there are 4 nice ones. Nice is a relative description - non-mean is more fitting. The behaviors I regularly witness are runniness, nervousness, a little swarmy, and sometimes absconding. Agression/defensiveness comes and goes. A better description is that they can be unpredictable. If you are sloppy and drop a box of them, yeah, they get pissed off - or if you mess around with the hive entrance after dark, they are going to try and get you with a vengeance. Every so often you run across some of them that are unapproachable, or unworkable - but thankfully they are pretty rare in my parts. Most of them are just bees, albeit a little runny, but still just bees. These are generic traits of any wild bee, including Black Bees. I have run across exactly one hive of totally unworkable bees in the last 4 years. Most are just runny and scared of people. 

The common traits for Brazilian bees is that they are runny, often defensive - but not always, you open the hive and they all come out and beard all over everything, they are scared of smoke, and they drip from the frames and festoon. If you hold the frame long enough, they all fly back into the hive. Thankfully most of the bees here are not like this.

So evil, no - annoying yes. I requeen anything that has these qualities. We do have some very good wild/feral bees, but you have to weed through these guys to get them. I don't breed from the bees in the desert - as they have more of the Brazilian traits. I do open mate my bees in the mountains with the locals so they can pick up hardy survivor genetics. Most of my queens are based off of feral queens from up near Santa Fe. I do have a few from local commercial sources. But they aren't really the same and mostly stay in the desert as that is what they are most suited for. Consequently, my meanest hive is a hive of cordovans who are normally docile. Get them riled up and watch out! Far meaner than my feral bees for sure. 

I still have one lone hive from a removal last year that does possess Brazilian traits, I have tried requeening them 3 times so far and have not had any luck. They are in the middle of the desert in a vacant area, and were making a ton of honey, so I just left them alone after the last time I sifted them through the excluder. I felt a little sorry for them after running them through the grate so many times. They are on my "to do" list, but for now I will let them make me some more honey. That is one elusive queen. I think they are slightly smaller than a normal queen. The interesting thing about those bees is that they don't like a big brood nest and it is all in one 8 frame box. Everything else is honey. They are normally not very defensive either.


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## Arkwood (May 18, 2013)

Thanks for that insight Paul.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Arkwood, my package from BeeWeaver is awful....aggressive, attack me, and I have to suit up completely to work the hives since I got them this year including wearing gloves...They will chase you away....I will requeen (again) or just let them die. They seem different in that their stings really HURT!! I was stung on the hand (through gloves) and by the next day the swelling had traveled up to my elbow; I couldn't even bend my fingers. So, if these are africanized, I agree that backyard Beekeepers should not raise them.


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## Arkwood (May 18, 2013)

Clover, how long have you had them (I know this year but 1 month, 2 etc...)? Do they go after you only when you enter the hive or just being outside around the hive? How many come after you, one, a few or more? Do you smoke them?

I received 2 packages 4 weeks ago and in 48 hours both absconded for whatever reason. In those 2 days, I was stung in the face the first time I opened the package, bugged all day when I stepped out back (Chased back inside) and a HUGE roar when I went to remove the queen cage. 

A week later exactly I received 2 replacement packages and these have been fantastic, ok let me bring that down to great! One hive received it's second brood box (Deep) yesterday while the other is a week behind (However this means nothing until the queens babies take over and the packaged bees die off). I've never got that ROAR, ever! I can stand by the hive, work on and around the hive with very little issue. I even told my GF the other day when I opened the hive and not a single bee was in my face telling me to leave. However I've made a few clumsy mistakes but nothing got out of hand. I get harassed more by the Yellow flies more than my bees. 

I've read mixed reviews about Bee Weaver, some people love them and some say they are nasty. I think I got a taste of both and glad I ended up with the ones I got. Oh, I don't smoke much as it seems to get them pissy but mostly to move them off the edges when putting things back together


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I have some beeweavers. More survivor bees - some with a better attitude than others. Survivor bees are survivor bees That's how they get that way. They are very popular in my area - not sure I would purposefully buy them, mine were given to me.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

First pkg from RWeaver, and they are good...the pkg from BWeaver I put the queen cage in and waited about 4 days, went in to release her and she was dead...they replaced her, no charge overnighted, and I released her after about 3-4 days. Meanwhile there was a laying worker (I think, messy frames of wax and drone brood) but I have seen good brood frames (a few) I have 3 hives and they get upset when I try and work the others...they stung my 2 1/2 yr old grandson and he was about 150 ft or so away, just playing. BW pkg I got May 9, May 12 dead queen, may 13 put the new queen cage in and was stung, may 17 stung releasing her and last inspected on June 8. And I, too, have made some clumsy mistakes...


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Arkwood, I try not to smoke them too much...


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Paul McCarty, is that what they sell, survivor bee's? I did not know that....


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## Arkwood (May 18, 2013)

Cloverdale said:


> BW pkg I got May 9, May 12 dead queen,


That's within a couple days or so of when I got mine that were nasty and absconded. I think they have several Bee yards so I'm not sure if I got different bee's a week later or not. 

I would like to compare if you don't mind. How are they doing filling up the frames? Are you using an 8/10 Med/Deep? Have you added a second hive body?


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Arkwood:
"I would like to compare if you don't mind. "
On May 21 I added another brood box, 10 frame deep....June 4 they were building comb on bottom of upper frames in the upper box...also removing what may have been drone pupae, June 8 looked in and saw some nice brood and it looked like enough bees, so I think they were removing the drone brood from a laying worker...couldn't get into the hives because we have had rain almost every day for a few weeks; the days it didn't rain I let them do their thing...
What I didn't mention was that I used frames from last years hive that had comb and honey in them...I didn't feed a lot because I figured that feral bee's arent' fed sugar water, and being they had honey and wax I fed them very little.
I will get in the hive on Sunday, weather permitting, and will let you know how they look.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Cloverdale, Beeweavers are sort of like the ultimate survivor bee. They have elements of just about everything in their breeding. They do have African in them from their Buckfast heritage. I have heard not to let them cross with a light/italian-ish bee or the African comes out.

I have never messed with them much because I can catch feral bees with survivor traits similar to them. That's probably why they are so popular here. I got the ones I have in a trade.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Agreed - 100%. And your instructions for requeening a hot hive are excellent. Been there, done that, not 10 boxes thank goodness.



Michael Bush said:


> >
> Anytime you start trying to kill off the feral bees you will make a vacuum that will be filled by the AHB. Unless you discriminate between aggressive bees and non-aggressive bees you will cause the problem you are trying to prevent...


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## sergie (Feb 20, 2012)

A lot of good information has been given in this thread so far. Admittedly my experience is somewhat limited only getting up to 14 hives personally and helping another beekeeper on a limited basis. Most of that experience was with AHB hives. With that in mind, I think AHB hives have much lower mite counts, produce a decent honey harvest, and need far less treatments. On the flip side they can be more defensive, swarm quite often, need to be managed differently to produce a honey crop, and some swarms will take over another hive rather then build their own. 


The message that needs to get to the public is that not all bee's are "killer bee's". Beekeepers in AHB area's should be the front line in controlling the aggressiveness of the wild bee's in the area. Instead beekeeping has been made illegal some cities(at least in AZ) and generally beekeeping has been pushed farther and farther away from large populations. Making it so that people are more likely to encounter aggressive wild bee's then the more gentle bee's kept by beekeepers.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Paul MCarty, I had no idea regarding BeeWeaver bees...I was intent on the Buckfast traits for my bees and until I saw the video put out by National Geographic about KillerBees breeding with others and how unsuccessful it was in keeping the good traits over the undesireable African traits. I have bees from RWeaver that are docile, I can assume that they are the same?
Thanks for the info; it does make me nervous having that kind of bee around.....


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I installed two BeeWeaver packages this April to replace two starved VSH derived hives.

I wanted resistant/chemical free bees.

I also wanted bees that might be better adapted to the high heat conditions I get on the roof due to the rubber mat tiles.

Since they're from Texas, I thought they might fit the bill.

They're tough alright. I watched em fill up the front entrance, beard up the front of the hive, and basically beat the crap out of some abscond robbers that made the mistake of trying to cleptoparasitize them.

I haven't had any issues working them yet, but as they're building into a third deep and beyond, that can change. Especially once the flow stops.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

WLC I was wondering along those lines, too, since it has been rotten weather up here in the western catskills, plus they had lost their queen and had laying workers before I requeened from BeeWeaver....did you notice that the queens looked a little small?


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## Arkwood (May 18, 2013)

Posting this for inquiring minds...

http://www.beeweaver.com/faq


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

RWeavers and Beeweavers are similar but different. RWeavers are more domesticized I think. I have had no experience with them. The Beeweavers are not too much different from what I get when I go catch a swarm in the wild for the most part. Decent bees, maybe a little on the defensive side occasionally. Sometimes that is needed - they are bees after all and not puppies. I kind of like my bees a little defensive, then I know they will fight off invaders and parasites. Of course the Chihuahuan Desert is a far cry from New York - they need it here.

And Sergie - totally agree with your words on AHB. A lot of people are scared for no reason. They are just wild bees. There are some bad traits, but if more people worked with them these would be lessened in the long run. I just participated in a successful campaign to have the anti-beekeeping law repealed in my local city specifically on the grounds that it was creating a breeding ground for bad Brazilian traits to get established.

I find the differences in opinions of beekeepers from AHB areas and non-AHB areas to be interesting.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

The BeeWeaver queens I received looked 'lovely' to me.

However, it turns out that I already had a queen in one of the packages, so the caged queen was never released. Laura will send a marked/clipped queen shortly so I can swap it in.


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## Arkwood (May 18, 2013)

Laura is good people! Bee Weaver customer support (Laura) has been FANTASTIC! 

As long as my bees stay reasonable to work with I plan on staying with Bee Weaver.

Like WLC I got mine for the same reason


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Arkwood: thanks, very helpful.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Laura is good people! Bee Weaver customer support (Laura) has been FANTASTIC! 

Their service was always great.


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## Arkwood (May 18, 2013)

Any new info on the range of the AHB for 2012/13 and I'm curious if there is a site that shows the lines year by year or so?


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

The Comment from WLC regarding "that can change" is apropos. I have numerous Bee weaver colonies mixed into my yards and I have found that at some times of the year you just don't want to manipulate them much. Strong honey flow, no problem. Cold, windy, spring afternoon wanting to make a few 5 frame splits: probably not going to be a good idea. I found this out the hard way several times. I always locate them at the right end of my yards so I remember to work them last. They are survivors as Paul indicated.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Arkwood said:


> Any new info on the range of the AHB for 2012/13 and I'm curious if there is a site that shows the lines year by year or so?


This is the most recent one I can find: Thru March, 2011. I haven't seen any maps newer than it.

Rusty


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## Arkwood (May 18, 2013)

thanks rusty


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

And, apparently, some people, beekeepers included are a little affected by media sensationalism. I myself might well be one of them, if I hadn't spent a decade keeping only AHB. I no longer keep any AHB for longer than I can requeen them and replace their populations with the replacement queens progeny.

Extreme defensiveness, and hypersensitivity to alarm pheromone, are only occasionally the issue. If your yards are remote, and you have a good suit, I'm sure it can be tolerated by some. But there are many other traits exhibited by AHB, which are much more problematic for beekeepers. For instance; I once did a split of a very strong colony (a colony that was rather docile and easy to manage). It was in three 10-frame medium supers. I moved them to a new location and placed an empty box at the old location. Then I placed the queen, most of the sealed brood, and some honey/pollen at the old location. I also gave them an empty super of drawn comb. Remaining at the new location were thirteen frames, primarily of open brood, many other combs of honey/pollen, and I gave them extra shade so they would be able to manage the heat. Those at the original location, did okay, while those at the new location, primarily nurse bees with lots of open brood. By the next day, had simply absconded to parts unknown -- abandoning the brood, but taking most of the honey stores. Meanwhile, when in the process of splitting them, it was impossible to shake bees from the combs and have them alight where they were shaken. As soon as any bees, nurse/house bees included, were shaken free of their combs, they would immediately be airborne, and the nurse/house bees would follow the older bees back to their home location. The only exceptions were bees that had just emerged with wings that were still hardening.

Only newly emerged AHB bees will ever accept a replacement queen. Older bees will invariably kill any queen they don't know, no matter how long they're given to adapt to her. Apparently Russian bees are similar in this trait.

Many AHB colonies, could be considered, "runny". You open the hive, use smoke, or not, and all the bees in the hive quickly begin fanning and running like they're in a race. More smoke often accelerates this behavior, rather than reduce it. They then move out of the hive and cluster in a collar around the upper outside edge of the topmost super. When you lift a comb they cluster along the sides and edge of the frame and drop in clumps to the ground. They continue doing this, until you reassemble their hive. Then it can take hours for them to settle back down. During all this, they can be entirely docile, and hardly sting at all.

Another interesting trait I associate with AHB is their sentry mode. Some colonies, with or without some of those other traits, can exhibit, what I call the "sentry" trait. In many colonies including EHB, at the entrance and when the cover is off, they have sentries stationed 2-3 inches apart, in a net like pattern. These sentries will follow your every move with their entire bodies. But, some AHB colonies demonstrate an extended sentry system -> when you pick up a frame, the sentry bees spread across your hands and up your arms, sometimes even to the shoulders and station themselves every 2-3 inches apart on every part of your hands and arms. Try to avoid pinching one of these sentries and having it sting you, release alarm pheromone, and get at least a stronger adverse response from the bees.

I have taken to building my own nucs, similar to the DCoates 15/32" plywood plan, but I use alternative bottoms and tops, usually I staple a piece of beeswax impregnated cardboard to the bottom and use a foil faced piece of foamboard as a cover. About once or twice per season, I've had a nuc fuss at their cardboard bottoms, so as to almost gnaw a hole through it, but none have actually made holes in that cardboard. Than I captured a nice sized swarm that appeared and behaved in every way like an EHB swarm. I collected them in a screened nuc box, by simply scraping them with a piece of wood from the flat cloth surface they had clustered on, into the box. I wore no gear and used no smoke. I even collected stragglers, by sharply striking the back side of the cloth. No stings, not even an agitated bee.

Then I got them home and transferred them to a nuc box with four empty combs and a fifth comb with open brood, just in case. Within a few days they had set up home. I located the queen and marked her. However, soon I noticed many AHB traits with them; but it would take a long time to describe all of them (some I mentioned on another thread about this swarm). I just brought them up to mention how in the first few days I had them, they turned the first two layers of their cardboard bottom into piles of wood fiber (looking like brown cotton), and they actually had begun disassembling the foil faced foamboard I was using for a cover. Many other nucs had the same cover, but this is the only one that ever managed to chew away the aluminum, then under that the heavy brown paper, and then attack the foam core. Once in their nuc home, they also became highly defensive and runny.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Of course, I use the term AHB generically, since I never bothered to have any bees tested in any way, morphometrically or DNA. I feel no need to bother with that, I simply observed bees exhibiting various traits, some good, some bad. I presently only keep bees with more of the traits I prefer -vs- keeping those with traits I don't appreciate. I don't really care which part of the world those genetics originated in.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

I really like the articles that Walt Wright has written, from not using queen excluders to 9 frame hives....he has a "keen"sense of observation and understanding the "why's" of honey bee's....


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...y-the-queen-excluder-limits-honey-production/


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Cloverdale,
How does what you posted apply to AHB's?

Are you referring to anything Walt Wright has written concerning AHB. I've been looking for that, but have not been able to locate anything. Could you please provide a link to where that might be located - thanks.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Joseph Clemens the link to Walt Wright is in my reply right above yours....I didn't realize I was still on AHB; I was looking for info and came across his writings....He might have something on AHB, look on the left side and there are links to his articles.Post #89


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I checked through your link to Walt Wrights POV articles, but couldn't find anything related to the topic of this thread. I'm still not sure I understand how your posts relate to the topic of this thread?


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

It doesn't relate at all.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Mr. Clemens knows these bees pretty well. I also agree with him that testing does not really matter and we should be requeening based on observed behaviors.

The sentry mode is pretty descriptive, but there is also another trait they do that can be be a little un-nerving. When a frame is lifted out of the hive the bees festoon and drip off of it. They fall all over the ground and crawl up anything high. They will literally cover the ground for yards around the hive. Not only that, but a significant portion will move up the arms of the beekeeper while holding the frame. They just sort of hang out there, like Mr. Clemens said, making manipulations a bit difficult so that you don't smash them. Give them enough time, and they will festoon and drip from the beekeeper too. Very annoying Brazilian trait. They also crawl up your legs in the same manner. If your bees don't do this and they are simply defensive, they are probably not African. This is a classic trait.

I have some pics of this behavior, and the behavior when they are smoked. I will post them if I get a chance.

In my opinion the USDA did beekeepers a grave disservice in their descriptions and behavioral findings on these African bees, as much of the information out there is wrong. The late great Steve Taber thought it so bad he quit the project as he thought their findings were a bunch of hooey. A lot of the canonical info out there is very dated and may not be applicable after 40 years of natural selection and hybridization.

We used to have DNA testing available for free through the state here in NM - but it was discontinued. I still contend they are mostly a nuisance and not the monstrous killers the media portrays, but that may only be because the bees in my particular region are different than the ones found in Texas, AZ, or California. Our feral NM bees tend to be more of a mixed bag genetically. Can't speak for AZ or California, but I would expect AZ to be similar in some ways to NM. They tend to gravitate to areas with a suitable climate - hence the Brazilian/Texas connection - savannah bees to savannah and desert bees to the desert. They say that these bees have not moved East of Texas as things are too wet for them.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Joseph Clemens and Paul McCarty....great info on your posts regarding AHB..


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## SRBrooks (Jun 24, 2012)

Michael:

Are you saying they were specifically B Weaver bees, though?

Sondra


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## SRBrooks (Jun 24, 2012)

I can't say enough nice things about Laura. And you wouldn't believe the dumb questions of mine she patiently answered when I first ordered bees from them, and started beekeeping.

Sondra


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Sondra, BeeWeaver's have great service, I don't have any problem with them whatsoever; for some reason this package of bee's from them is EXTREMELY aggressive! I went in today to remove the sugar water and they bombarded me, more like dive-bombing; I couldn't do the other two hives because they wouldn't let me alone, and I finally left and had some chase me all over my yard...finally they flew away; my brother stopped over about 5 minutes after that and a bee went after him; had to run into the house (he left, he's allergic) I finally unsuited and went to get my pail that I dropped when they were chasing me and here they come again! I also have a package from RWeaver, which are fine....So, I can't have this kind of bee in my yard so I'll have to requeen and hope for the best!


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## SRBrooks (Jun 24, 2012)

Is this the first time they've done that to you? People are probably sick of me mentioning this, but one of my B Weaver hives was scary-defensive a month ago, but the two times I've visited it since then, they've ignored me entirely. I was just with them about an hour ago, and they couldn't have been nicer.

At the same time mine were hostile a month ago, I emailed another local woman who has nothing but B Weavers, and she said hers were in a defensive mood at the same time. She did mention the possible need to requeen. (We're both in Texas, and AHB is always something to be on the lookout for). Like you, bees followed me well away from the hive. I ran through thick trees and brush trying to lose them, I doubled back through the trees, I ran through the garage and slammed the door behind me, ran into the house to try and lose the stragglers, etc. and somehow ended up with one still after me in the master bathroom. 

But you know your bees better than anyone, and I sure wouldn't tolerate that kind of behavior on a regular basis. Fortunately, that behavior was rare with mine.

Sondra


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

No Sondra; I just called BeeWeaver and they are willing to send another queen; one thing I didn't think about was there are storms around us up here, so it could have been the weather that was affecting them (effecting?) ...but, your story sounds like mine !


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## SRBrooks (Jun 24, 2012)

Yes, one of the times they were furious, it was a hot, humid and "thundercloudy" day. You may have caught them when almost all the girls were at home.

I don't know what infuriated mine a month ago. We have lots of wild critters around here, so who knows what might have been AFFECTING them overnight. 

That's cool that B Weaver will send another queen. I hope it goes well for you.

Sondra


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Are you saying they were specifically B Weaver bees, though?

Yes. They could have improved since then (there seem to be mixed reports). That was in 2001. I have not had any since.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

BeeWeaver offered to send me a new queen, but I decided to requeen from a local beekeeper...that is done as of today.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

OK, so I wikied Buckfast bees.

"The Buckfast contains heritage from mainly A.m. ligurica (North Italian), A.m. mellifera (English), A.m. mellifera (French), A.m. anatolica (Turkish) and A.m. cecropia (Greek). The Buckfast bee of today also contains heritage from two rare and docile African stocks A. m. sahariensis and the A.m. monticola, but not the "Africanized" A. m. scutellata. "

So, are we saying that there may bee some A. m. scutellata genes in Bee Weavers?


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

I am new at this, but in my humble opinion, I think there is, at least in my package and queen that I received....I also bought a package from RWeaver, and don't have a problem with them at all, and from what I have been told their businesses are near each other....go figure!


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

May I suggest reading Beekeeping At Buckfast Abbey by Brother Adam? He is the "creator" of the Buckfast honey bee...a wonderful story he has and informative...


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I don't agree that a 'twitchy' or defensive temperament means that they carry AHB traits.

While they may have other traits of African ancestry, I don't think that it's 'Killer Bee' in origin.

It's more likely less docile and more defensive.

I've certainly noticed a difference. I just move more slowly, work more carefully, use light smoke (I purchased a Bee-Z), use a vented suit and nitrile gloves.

I just don't have the guts to use a white dress shirt, veil, with an apple cider spray bottle anymore.

Besides, it takes too long.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> So, are we saying that there may bee some A. m. scutellata genes in Bee Weavers?


Well WLC, I understand that they are in the only county in Texas which isn't designated Africanized. Why do you suppose that is?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

sqkcrk:

I don't know. Luck?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

WLC said:


> Luck?


When you look at the map...it is amazing that all of the surrounding counties have been AHB for a long time. Ya got to wonder how those bees know where that county line is.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Maybe they set up a good 'zone defense'?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> sqkcrk:
> 
> I don't know. Luck?


Yeah, Right. Tell me, who determines whether a county is AHB or not?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> Maybe they set up a good 'zone defense'?


Mexico has more managed bee hives per square mile than anywhere else in North America and there are AHB in the US, so, no, I don't think they have a good zone defense.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

The Mexicans would think the gringos worry too much.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Come on fellas.

You're pulling my leg.

I'm the 'alarmist'. So, you're using my own routine on me. Very amusing.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> So, are we saying that there may bee some A. m. scutellata genes in Bee Weavers?


So what do you think? Is there likely to be?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

You do know that BeeWeaver bees were used to sequence the Honeybee genome?

It would have shown up.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Okay. Then they must not.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I would have noticed by now if they were.

I've observed them enough and worked them enough to notice some of what has been described before, but no, they haven't gone after me in any way to date.

They'll move around the frame very quickly, and even fly off the frame if I'm less than gentle. I have seen them defend the hive, more than once.

I have approached the hives, unprotected, from the sides to take a look without being chased off.

I would say that they do have a different character than the mutts and VSH bees I've had.

However, I am satisfied with their productivity. Thus far.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

WLC - sounds very close to my observations of BeeWeavers. 

Also very close to the ferals you can catch in my parts. I was doing 25-30 feral removals a season at my peak and I only had exactly three hives attack me in force. Most are just varying degrees of "runny".


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I would say that they're a mix of runny, flighty, etc. .

I was bending over a hive that I had just smoked, opened, and unstacked when a bee phobic, young woman observer screamed.

A cloud of them just wooshed past me and started buzzing around in a small cloud.

I would say that a proportion of them are very sound, vibration sensitive.

It's an interesting mix of traits that they breed into them.

I guess that what it takes to get chemical free survivors.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Well, you know survivors don't get that way by being push-overs. I know what it takes for them to survive where I live. They have to contend with all manner of bee-eating desert wildlife and insects, plus other hives. I have watched non-survivor types let hornets in the nest to rob, while the survivors fight them tooth and nail. Then the real trouble starts with the desert heat and environment. If I don't have to feed them and coddle them through it, I know which type of bee I would rather have.


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## whiskeytripping (Nov 16, 2012)

Well im going to chime in my 2 cents worth, 
First, i have never tested any bees, but have ran into some exceptionally violent hive that i do believe were africanized. They are NOT lazy like i hear abunch. I robbed a wild hive with over 3 gallons of honey in it. When you run into them, just remove them and requeen. Thats all that needs to be done, the best way to eradicate them is to keep on removing and requeening. I have found out something very interesting though. I had a hive i believed to be africanized, i removed the queen and installed a beeweaver queen, within a week and a half i opened the hive up and the bees were WAY CALMER. i know that there wasn't time for her to change out the bees with european bees yet, but apparently just the temperament of the queen has a lot to do with how the bees act. Obviously the new queen didn't get all bent out of shape about inspections like the old mean queen. Another thing about africanized, i dont really give a **** anymore (i bought a ultra breeze beesuit) this was the best thing EVER invented. Lol


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