# Golden Mean Full?



## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Hi, Lasergyro!

No experience here yet, getting our first package of bees for our first top bar hive from Beethinking.com next Friday. But based on all the reading, watching videos, and class I'm in it sounds like your hive does not have enough ventilation for the bees to be able to cool it enough. It's my understanding that bearding is caused by too-high temperatures inside the hive. What are the temperatures during the day and night in your location?

If they are getting ready to swarm there will be other indications, such as "swarm cells." You should see queen cells, and a larger percentage of drone cells if I recall correctly. You should also make sure that your brood area is not "honey bound", that there are empty bars available for them to build additional brood comb in the brood nest area.

If I'm way off base I'm sure that others will chime in here and let us know, but do some research on hive ventilation and swarming for more information.

Cheers,
Tom


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

You could do some splits. Do you have another hive or small top bar nuc handy?

From Michael Bush's site:

*How to do Splits*

Here's an excellent video of Sam Comfort doing splits with his top bar hives up in New York State. He has plenty of queens handy, but they can be done just as well (but not as quickly) with brood/eggs and queen cells.
*
VIDEO: 18 minute video tour of two apiaries in the Hudson Valley*


Also, here's a thread from these forums regarding doing splits on a top bar:

* Splitting a Top-bar hive*


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## lasergyro (Apr 7, 2013)

Thanks for the reply Tom!
Yeah, I thought about the ventilation because of my tropical location and so far I have drilled 3 two inch holes in the back wall of the hive and installed two inch soffits which hopefully will supply a little more air thru the hive. The temps here run in the 70's most of the time and I am up at the 1000 foot elevation so I hope the soffits will help. The Golden Mean Hive has a solid bottom and I kind of wish it had a screen bottom for ventilation purposes. I have seen some drone cells but I haven't seen any queen cells yet. Anyway, thanks again Tom for your input.
Aloha!
Jim


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## SRBrooks (Jun 24, 2012)

I bought the smaller hive design from Backyard Hives. What bothers me about it is the only ventilation the girls get is through the entrance. I tried to drill holes in the hive but barely made a dent. 

I also have a BeeThinking hive, which already has ventilation holes. I wish I'd just gone ahead and gotten another BeeThinking. I LOVE that hive, and the colony in it is super strong.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

1: Contrary to popular belief, the bees 99% of the time ONLY need ventilation through the entrance, PROVIDED that we, the beekeepers, haven't done anything to them (like setting a black-painted hive out in full sun in a tropical/desert location) that makes it notably harder to keep cool than in their natural habitat (hollow logs & bole-holes in trees). Bees need to keep the inside of the hive at a fairly constant temperature (slightly over 90F, if memory serves) in order for the brood to be able to develop properly; they have to use body-heat (i.e. burn extra calories & eat extra honey) to warm the hive if something (like a screened bottom board, or excessive ventilation) lowers this temperature, and they use evaporative cooling (effective evap. cooling depends HIGHLY on being able to *control* the airflow thru the hive) when the internal hive temp gets too high. If you're worried that your bees are getting too hot (or too cold), a better first approach to "helping them out" would be to consider insulation & "heat-shielding" methods, such as painting the top of the lid with aluminized roofing paint (the super-reflective stuff that keeps the sun from cooking stuff underneath), painting the outside of the hive box(es) a light, reflective color (many use white), or adding an insulating air-gap around the bottom, sides, and or top of the hive (just have to make sure the extra space is sealed-up well, or you could end up with comb in some inconvenient places...or be giving the Small Hive Beetles a nice little hotel).

2: Referring to the original post, if you're having a good bit of bearding day & night, AND the inside of the hive seems to be "packed full of bees," your bees are out of space, plain & simple, the hive they're in is too small for your bees. Time to do some splits, or look into using some more appropriately sized equipment. My recommendation here: build longer boxes; new beekeepers are *constantly* in these forums complaining about swarming and overcrowding in Golden Mean hives, my guess is that they are simply WAY too small to be productive hives in many situations; thankfully, this is as easy to fix as making the hive box longer, so it fits more bars. With my TBH design (19" bar length), I've found 2' to be about the minimum box length for keeping a hive healthy, and longer boxes necessary if I want to harvest much honey from them (right now I'm working on converting everyone into 4' long boxes).

Hope some of that helped, without being too wordy to read through


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## SRBrooks (Jun 24, 2012)

Excellent advice, especially since you're from Texas and get pretty much the same temps, I imagine. The hives get morning sun, then dappled or complete shade in the afternoons. I did go up a little while ago to the Garden Hive and take the sticks out of the entrance. It is a brand-new hive as of Saturday, so I had temporarily reduced the entrance by 75% when I installed the girls. 

Re: one of my other TBHs, yesterday they bearded for the first time since I've had them. I took out the false back, giving them the rest of the hive. (Probably about 6 or 7 bars were empty) Looks like they will have the entire TBH filled with comb in a few weeks. This is after only one year. 

Thank you for what sounds like good advice, Robherc. 

You write very well, by the way.

Sondra


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but it seems about half the people than mention a Golden Mean hive a talking about how they swarm. They look nice, but I think they must be too small.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.
So what's the huge downside to a swarming hive, unless you are a big honey producer/pollinator?

It only helps build the feral bee population.

Isn't that a good thing?

And besides, I'd love to have the chance to witness such a miracle.

Also, in this time of hearing about MAJOR losses from ccd over this past winter, hearing about overcrowded, swarming hives is a blessing.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

PatBeek said:


> .
> 
> 
> It only helps build the feral bee population.
> ...


When your hive is hanging in a tree, does that make it a feral hive?

Not sure there are any feral hives....


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Nothing is wrong with swarming if you want to create potential pests for your neighbors! I live in a residential neighborhood (are not all neighborhoods residential?) Anyway, I don't think my neighbors would apprieciate the site of a swarm in their yard as much as I would.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

shannonswyatt said:


> Nothing is wrong with swarming if you want to create potential pests for your neighbors! I live in a residential neighborhood (are not all neighborhoods residential?) Anyway, I don't think my neighbors would apprieciate the site of a swarm in their yard as much as I would.


 Go snatch the swarm and start another hive. or do a split.

And why would neighbors think a swarm is any big deal? People need to get away from their tvs and enjoy life for a change.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Great in theory, unfortunately I'm away from home more hours than I'm here, so there is a better chance of me not being here to try to chase it down.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

Considering the number of calls I get throughout the course of a spring & summer by locals who want bees removed from their walls, under their bathtubs, their soffits, their birdhouse, etc...I'd say letting your hives swarm in a populated area is pretty irresponsible, and bad manners, at best. Considering that a residential Bee removal (or extermination) can end up costing a homeowner, or business, up to, or over, $1000, PLUS property damage from having to cut into their structure to remove an established hive, I think you'd become VERY unpopular FAST if people suspected you to be the cause of their having a swarm move into the wall of their back porch while they were out of town inch:

Now, for those of us who are fortunate enough to have nice, rural areas, with much lower human population densities, for our apiaries, then throwing swarms *can* actually be beneficial for re-establishing "feral" (or, should we just call them liberated) colonies, helping to establish more genetic influence from desirable lines in a queen rearing apiary, etc. So, really, "let them swarm" or "do whatever you can to STOP them from swarming" all depends on your location & situation...either way, the GM hive seems to be too small for harvesting much honey off of, or for swarm prevention, in most settings (from the reports I've heard from other beeks, and/or seen in these forums)


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## lasergyro (Apr 7, 2013)

Thanks for your input Rob. I probably should split the hive.....I just don't have another top bar sitting around and splitting to a Lang would really be a pain.
Aloha,
Jim
ps
Oh Rob, what would you think about a screen bottom for the Golden Mean?


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

99 times out of 100, I'll vote "NO" on SBBs...the only time I'd really consider one to be more asset than liability is if you're installing it above a solid bottom, or solid tray, to catch SHB and varroa in. ... of course, that's my opinion, and I know there are plentyy of beeks (probably some commercial guys, even) who'll entirely disagree.

Also, if you're interested in a BYOH (Build-Your-Own-Hive) project, I'm working on publishing designs for my latest generation, fully Lang compatible, hybrid TBH bars, hive bodies, and Bee Vacs (with nucs and Lang/TBH switchover boxes coming soon) at http://www.robherc.com/bees/Projects/MarkIII/index.html
The plans are free for anyone to use/modify at will, and feel free to PM me if you want more info on them/have suggestions for improvements. Or, you can make a longer Golden Mean hive, so that you don't have TBH boxes with different sized top bars in your apiary.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Rob, I checked out the site. Nice job on the bars. I may try to make some like that. 

I noticed you are using plywood on your hive body. Are you using some special plywood? Wondering how the life of the wood is.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

The plywood is "11/32 category BC sanded" from Lowes. I don't have any boxes that are over 3yrs old yet, but I do have a couple of boxes that are about 2 months shy of the 3 year mark, so far they've held up beautifully (those two were painted on the outside, but I have 5 2yr old boxes that are unpainted & in good condition too). I would NOT, however, recommend using ply for the lids...I've tried it & even when painted, it's nearly impossible to keep it from warping & ruining the bee space above the bars 
My most recent lids have been made from 3/4" thickness slats that I cut from 2x4 stock, then ran over the router table to make "tongue in groove" joints...joined 'em together like hardwood flooring...works well, but requires a lot of finish sanding, and quite a bit of effort. (so I'm still considering other options there)


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

OK, so you are running your top like the top of a Lang with bee space about the bars. I was thinking you put something over top of the bars (no bee space) and then used an outer cover to close it up.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

yes, bee space up top, and a 3-4" wide, by 3/8" high top entrance notched into the top of the front wall...bees enter that notch, right up against the underside of the lid. It serves 2 purposes for me:
1) It allows the bees to fan out the very hottest of the hot air from the hive simply by fanning it over the top bars & out the entrance
2) It allows the bees to enter the hive over the bars, crawl directly to whichever bar they're heading for, then climb down on that comb directly, without interfering with other bees working on other tasks down inside, where the combs all are.


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## Dirtslinger2 (Dec 9, 2007)

My first tb was modeled after a Golden Mean. Way too small and we have a short season. It's almost like a swarm machine. Not good for a new beekeeper in my opinion.


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## Merlinspop (Nov 4, 2010)

PatBeek said:


> .
> So what's the huge downside to a swarming hive, unless you are a big honey producer/pollinator?


Last fall, my single tbh threw off a swarm very late sept/oct timeframe. Very few drones remained and the queenless hive was dead by Thanksgiving. 

On the bright side, the package I just installed today have a full hive of good comb with lots of stores. 

Queen was dead so I didn't direct release the replacement that I brought home 4 hours after I shook the bees in. The girls were super-excited to have a live queen. They went from being very agitated and flying all over, to calmly setting up shop in about an hour.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Bump


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>They look nice, but I think they must be too small. 

I'd make it four feet long minimum... but then the "golden mean" probably doesn't apply anymore... imo the "golden mean" is an aesthetic proportion more than a practical one...


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Maybe if you scaled the whole thing out it would still be a golden mean hive. I'm pretty sure most gums don't have golden mean proportions. But I painted my hives green and brown, so what do I know about aesthetics.


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## SRBrooks (Jun 24, 2012)

I tried the slightly smaller version of the Golden Mean, and never could get a package to remain in it. I tried two packages and had to introduce new queens. Everything failed. I won't go into all the details, but it seems that the design created nothing but chaos. My other two TBHs have been successful from the get-go. (One is a Bee Thinking TBH, and the other is almost exactly the same size, ordered elsewhere.)

I got so frustrated with the small hive design that I gave it away.

Sondra


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## HappyBeeing (Apr 6, 2013)

Last winter I had my husband make me a GM for my first hive.Very beautiful and my package bees adored it and got prolific immediately. I made the beginner mistake of starting with only One package. Being 60 yrs old and knowing I'd have no help at all I didn't want to be overwealmed. HA. Happened anyway! My April 9 package of Carniolans filled it,evicted drones for 2 weeks and then swarmed by JUNE 14. That was way too fast for me,as a first year,to control. 
I wasn't ready with another hive.I can't Imagine the Work of babysitting several Golden Means! Eeeek!
I feel that keeping enough empty bars for a queen in the brood nest in a Golden Mean would be a WEEKLY job. I did Not want to open my hive That often! They refilled it to bursting by Fall too and had stores to the end.
IMHO proportionately making it bigger would really make the already large combs Too big and heavy if a person ever has 100 degree weather softening them. I think adding a foot or MORE to the end would really make a nice hive though!!! They Are a swarm machine,at least for Carniolans, and it seems to me a person could make a couple of splits a year Using a GM for That purpose!
The upside for me is that I got a locally bred daughter-queen out of my first year beekeeping. It looks like they actually might make it through the winter too!(fingers crossed). I don't know how a person could ever get much honey from a GM because the Beek needs to pull partially built/filled combs ALL the time til Fall to keep any space at all in the thing to try to keep their bees. I LOVE the GM DVD and website but it didn't work That way in My climate (yet).
I got a second hive that's 48" ready for This year and an empty nuc too! Expecting to get honey from my bigger hive by next year I won't mind the swarm machine giving bees "to the wild" so much if I lose them. This Spring IF I can actually harvest a full comb of honey or more (from last year's winter stores)from the Golden Mean, I'll add to this thread. HB


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## HappyBeeing (Apr 6, 2013)

MY words from January: I don't know how a person could ever get much honey from a GM because the Beek needs to pull partially built/filled combs ALL the time til Fall to keep any space at all in the thing to try to keep their bees. I LOVE the GM DVD and website but it didn't work That way in My climate (yet).
I got a second hive that's 48" ready for This year and an empty nuc too! Expecting to get honey from my bigger hive by next year I won't mind the swarm machine giving bees "to the wild" so much if I lose them. This Spring IF I can actually harvest a full comb of honey or more (from last year's winter stores)from the Golden Mean, I'll add to this thread. HB 

OK Friends. Time to Eat my words,quite literally!!!
The colony overwintered and went gangbusters again this Spring.Daughter queen led the pack just like the mom did last year. The Golden Mean not only produced Two splits for me this year(one in a hive now and one a nuc) but it also produced 13 POUNDS of honey for me this year! 

I took out 4 lbs in early Spring when our flow started and I knew they didn't need last Fall's stores anymore. Then 2 weeks ago,after making May-June splits I had to make queen room in the GM,which was Again Full of comb in July(but I'd avoided losing a swarm this year). I ended up with a full,and 2 partial combs that added up to 9 more pounds of honey. wow. I did Not Feed that hive this year either except one quart of essential oils-in-syrup several months ago (which I feel wards off some health issues). It IS a lot of "babysitting" but what a producer! My apologies to the inventor. It does work when one gets the hang of Working it and flows are great like this year's flows in our area! 

Just goes to show,yet again, as a First year beek I just needed to Keep On Learning! I did say in that other post I'd probably leave it to make swarms as per the philosophy of the style, and I won't be splitting much after next year,as I have a self imposed 4 hive limit. But I'm sure as heck HAPPY with how it's all turned out! As a beek with no helpers it IS a lot of work to keep track of how fast things happen in that style,but like all bee work we get to know when and what has to be done and adjust accordingly. HB

PS- My longer 4.5 foot new-this-year TB is certainly Easier to manage with slower bees and without the swarm threat......


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I don't know how a person could ever get much honey from a GM ...
>but it also produced 13 POUNDS of honey for me this year! 

Are you thinking that is not much? Or that it's a lot? It's not much. In a good year I've harvested 200 lbs per hive. In an average year I harvest 40-50 lbs per hive. In a bad year, sometimes you get nothing.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Michael, don't move to Virginia, you will be disappointed!


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

shannonswyatt said:


> I don't want to sound like a broken record, but it seems about half the people than mention a Golden Mean hive a talking about how they swarm. They look nice, but I think they must be too small.


As Michael Bush pointed out in this forum a few weeks ago: 

Corwin's intent with the design of his hives is for them to swarm. Seriously. He wants to repopulate the feral bee supply. If you don't want them to swarm, I recommend you build your hives bigger. Four foot is about the minimum length for a good top bar hive that is being run for honey. Five doesn't hurt but doesn't come out as even on materials... 

The golden mean hives do appear to be swarm machines.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>...I think they must be too small.

As dedelt pointed out, it was by design. But that doesn't mean you can't build a bigger one...


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Funny, I don't remember seeing on the website that the golden mean hives are designed to create swarms. Leaving your hives in 5 frame nucs will create swarms as well. Not sure that you need any special design other than small for making swarm producing hives. A would guess that a number of the folks that have those hives live in neighborhoods. Creating a bunch of swarms then produces pests that people have to pay money to get removed. If you live miles away from the closest house than I guess that isn't a concern.


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