# 7D nails for supers and hive bodies (Galvanized vs hot dipped, vs electro-galvanized)



## BrianR (Jun 26, 2014)

Just a quick answer for #2:

Stainless steel - typically most spendy, will likely outlast the wood they are placed in. If you want a 'show' hive this might be the way to go. Uneconomical otherwise.

Hot-dipped galvanized (HDG) - regular steel (also referred to as carbon steel or mild steel) that has been dipped in a bath of molten zinc, leaving a heavy coat of zinc on the surface. Zinc acts as a sacrificial coating; over time, rather than the steel rusting, the zinc does. The zinc just doesn't look bad when it rusts.

Electro-plated or electro-galvanized or zinc plated or zinc-electroplated - carbon steel that has been dipped in a bath containing zinc ions. An electric current is passed through the metal, which chemically deposits zinc on the surface. The same effect as hot-dipped galvanized, but the coating looks better and lasts half as long (or less).

Cement coated - carbon steel coated with a non-corroding material. Works great when the coating is intact. . .

Aluminum - not as corrosive as steel, but will still 'rust' given enough time. Spendy, and difficult to hammer in without bending - the material is typically softer.

Bottom line - HDG is probably the best matched material for the life of the wood they are hammered into. Cheaper than stainless, but last longer than others. Other than the issues of finding 7d, readily available.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Here's my two cents.

If you've ever tried to pull apart a wood pallet then you know they don't give up easy. They are made with either ring shanked or spiral nails.

I agree with Brian on the fact that hot dipped galvanized is the way to go. You may have to look a little harder for it but worth it.


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Sizes of nails, for US
The size of a nail is determined by its length. In some types a definite relationship exists between the length and the diameter of the shank. To illustrate this point, examine a 2" common wire nail, a 2" casing nail, and a 2" finishing nail. It will be found that the wire nail is made of 11-1/2-gage wire, the casing nail of 12-1/2-gage wire, and the finishing nail of 13-gage wire. While all three are the same length they are of different diameters, the common wire nail being the thickest and the finishing nail the thinnest. 

In the United States, the length of a nail is designated by its penny size, written with a number and the abbreviation d for penny; for example, 10d for a ten-penny nail. A larger number indicates a longer nail, shown in the table below. Nails under 1¼ inch, often called brads, are sold mostly in small packages with only a length designation or with length and wire gauge designations; for example, 1" 18 ga or 3/4" 16 ga.
Penny sizes originally referred to the price for a hundred nails in England in the 15th century: the larger the nail, the higher the cost per hundred. The system remained in use in England into the 20th century, but is obsolete there today. The d is an abbreviation for denarius, a Roman coin similar to a penny; this was the abbreviation for a penny in the UK before decimalisation.
penny size/length(inches)
2d	1
3d	1¼
4d	1½
5d	1¾
6d	2
7d	2¼
8d	2½
9d	2¾
10d	3
12d	3¼
16d	3½
20d	4
30d	4½
40d	5
50d	5½
60d	6

See Below for Gauge/Length Relationship for Wire Nails (Not Casing or Finishing)


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

You are way overthinking this subject. Look around at barns that are 75 years old, no paint, and still no real problem with the nails.

Any nail will outlast the beekeeper and his equipment. The use of a good glue is far more beneficial than the nail. 

If you are making a show hive then it will matter, If you are looking for functional hives, use either 6, 7, or 8 in the one that you can find the cheapest.

cchoganjr


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I have been making my boxes since I started in 2008. My 2c follows Cleo's thinking. I use 6d 2inch galvanized, Titebond 2, and rabbet joints. I cut, clamp and glue, drill pilot holes, nail, and paint.
One thing I learned early on is that carpentry that is very accurate can be a PIA when it comes time to pry the boxes apart. If the boxes stack perfectly it can be really hard to get your hive tool in. This means that my favorite hive tool is not the one I have from Mann Lake, the steel is too thick, but one that turned up at work out of the blue.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Sometimes, it's hard to find 7d nails. When I used to use nails and I ran out of 7d, I just used 8d instead. I prefer to go one size up than one size down. As mentioned here, the glue is very important so I never felt that I'd "make or break" my new box based on a small difference in nail size. Later, I switched to staples and that's what I use now. Hot dipped galvanized is what I prefer for any galvanized nail although I do re-nail my 200+ year old siding with stainless steel nails when I repaint the house. I do that because I sand before I prime and the sander sands the galvanized coating off any exposed nail heads rendering them susceptible to rusting.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

If you use a good glue (Llike Titebond II or III) the glut joint will be stronger than the wood it joins.

That means nails serve little purpose other than holding the joint until the glue sets.

Both 6d or 8d nails will hold well enough that you'll never notice a difference.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

For the boxes that come predrilled, the 6d Hot Dipped Box nails work very well. 


Don


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## coopbee (Jul 26, 2013)

We stock 7d nails here at the Farmer's Coop where I work.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Hot dipped has burs from the galvanizing proses & doesn't come out as easily. A commercial friend of mine buys hot dipped, screw shanked, 8's.
Our home depot & lows both sell 7's


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

D Semple said:


> the 6d Hot Dipped Box nails work very well.


I agree with D Semple. For years I predrilled all the holes and used 6d. Never had a problem. Then about 5 years ago I bought a Hitachi stapler and now I use TiteBond 3 and staple.

cchoganjr


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I use a crown stapler with 1 1/2" staples (the longest it will take) which is the same length as a 4d nail...


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Common nails are not made (at least not readily available) in 7d, but box nails are. I use 7d galvanized box nails in my boxes.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

When looking for nails most people get that the penny size refers the length of the nails. but you also run into type of nail. Sinker, Common, Box, Joist Hanger, Concrete etc. Each of these have specific uses with different pluses and minuses. I use a 6d galvanized box nail for hive boxes. A box nail has a thinner diameter to help prevent splitting of the wood when nailing into the edge of a board. They also bend easier when driving them. Galvanized to prevent rust but they will also discolor the wood. Stainless steel is used to prevent the discoloring when you still want rust prevention. I use 6d galvanized ring shank nails to build fences. If I got them for making boxes and hand driving I woudl get yelled at those who are doing the assembly. they are even harder to drive. but they hold stronger usually. Your wood needs to be stable for them to work well.

At any rate I would find 6d galvanized box nails or as close to it as you can readily find. IF all you can find is common then pre drill. This does the same thing as a box nail would afford and you have a stronger nail that is easier to drive.

You then have the various methods of galvanizing. some work better than other. the main thing is you do not want to pay for higher priced coatings than you need and still have a coating that stays on the nail. I like hot dipped myself.


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## pahammer (Oct 8, 2012)

I purchase my 7d hdg nails online from Home Depot....orders $45 and more ship free

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Grip-Rit...Steel-Common-Nails-5-lb-Pack-7HGBX5/100164003


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## pahammer (Oct 8, 2012)

duplicate post


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We like the Maze double dipper 7d BOX nail so well be bought all they had (400lbs?) when we heard they where discontinued. They where the best we could find.

Crazy Roland


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Amazon sells the 7d galvanized. FWIW, ring shanked nails were mentioned above; they don't hold any better than smooth nails in end grain same goes for screws in end grain. 

Great thread!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>they don't hold any better than smooth nails in end grain same goes for screws in end grain. 

I would have to disagree. They may not hold as well as the same nail in cross grain, but they hold significantly better than smooth nails in end grain.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> I would have to disagree. They may not hold as well as the same nail in cross grain, but they hold significantly better than smooth nails in end grain.


Maybe in some woods.....in the pine we use, there is not much purchase in the end grain. The glue does most of the bonding anyway. I say that knowing you have credentials in the construction industry.


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

Like MB, I use 1 1/2" staples with TB3 glue. I butt joint so the staples are going into the end grain but I go in at an angle so the staple is gripping more of the crossgrain than just straight in. Couple of coats of cheap paint and good to go. Now having said that....just for grins....I put a dummy box togather...waited a week and tried to take it apart. The wood broke before the joint came apart. I feel safe in that they'll last quite a few years. Use whatever nail/staple you have handy and *good glue*. It's a bee box.....just so long as its water tight with no huge gaps, they dont care.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Lburou said:


> Maybe in some woods.....in the pine we use, there is not much purchase in the end grain. The glue does most of the bonding anyway. I say that knowing you have credentials in the construction industry.


That would be an issue of lumber quality not fastener. If in fact a nail holds better than another nail but you find that in some particular material it does not hold as well. it is fairly obvious the difference is the material not the fastener. If you wood is so poor it cannot hold a nail. should you be spending your time making a box out of it? The fact is a ring shank nail will hold better than a smooth nail. so if you find a ring shank not holding. how well is any other nail holding? I say if a ring shank will not hold or a screw will not hold then nothing will hold.

Ring shanks and screws are both more expensive. so to justify the cost you may want to justify the need for them.


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Lburou said:


> Amazon sells the 7d galvanized. FWIW, ring shanked nails were mentioned above; they don't hold any better than smooth nails in end grain same goes for screws in end grain.


I use Kreg 2" pan head screws with coarse threads in stainless, I'd bet they hold better than smooth wire nails. Look at the teeth on these!








Overkill? Probably...


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I use hot dip galvanized nails when I can find them. Most of the rest of the "galvanized" nails have very thin coatings, and will inevitably rust after you drive them because the friction with the hammer head strips the coating off. In a few years, rusty nail heads get so small they are doing nothing to hold the box together.

Less of a problem with modern glues, I suppose, but I hate rusty nails heads on bee boxes. 

Peter


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

If you are still nailing beehives together in my opinion you need box nails not common nails.......


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

If you are still nailing beehives together in my opinion you need box nails not common nails.......


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## umchuck (May 22, 2014)

from a retired carpenter, rule of thumb is nail should grip a minimum of 1" material after being driven hence a 3/4" board should be nailed with a nail no shorter than 1 3/4" thing to remember is wood shrinks and common nails loose their grip in time, ring shank or coated are usually used for exterior applications, hope it helps
randy


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

So umchuck at least a 5D nail (1-3/4")

Box nail - like a common nail but with a thinner shank and head


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## umchuck (May 22, 2014)

I use 7d roslin coated or cement coated, same thing you nail plywood subfloors and roofs


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

These days nails are secondary to the high quality glue we use (or should use) to hold the boxes together. Not that nails won't hold indefinitely, it's that the glue will make the joint waterproof along with holding the box together, and that will make them last longer.

Most beekeeping suppliers sell box nails, but many are not galvanized or coated, and will rust if not very carefully sealed and painted.

Peter


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## LanduytG (Aug 29, 2013)

I put the nails that came with the hive in the fastener cupboard and used and used #6 1-5/8" finish screws with a Robertson head. The counter sink well and once painted you can hardly tell they are there.

Greg


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Destructive testing known as "beekeeping with old hives" gives the conclusion that coated staples and Tite Bond III kick booty over any nail. The reason is that the thinner metal of the staple does less local destruction to the wood grain (especially end-grain), permitting less water to enter the fastener-to-wood contact area. Water corrodes the fastener and weathers the wood. 

Another reason to staple is that a well-oiled staple gun beats a hammer in getting the job done quick, but you need compressed air. I started out using a giant tractor tire instead of a compressor because it delivered enough air volume to keep stapling several boxes without stopping. Where there's a will, there's a way...now I have an upgraded compressor.

Bar clamps (big enough and American-made, or European-made, not wimpy fakes from you-know-where) forcing a tight joint also makes a big difference, as does dipping the hive in 50% Linseed oil, 50% Mineral Spirit for 3 to 5 minutes after assembly. Dry the hive boxes outside for 2 to 3 weeks, then primer them and paint them. Don't forget the branding iron!

I leave the FBJ's about 1/32" long so they protrude form the joint. I belt sand them down. Everyone thinks you're a bad-*** carpenter because it looks good because you left a little bit to sand, but truth is that end-grain lasts longer when sanded smoother than a saw cut. Adjusting the staple penetration depth causes less crown damage to the wood, and filling the holes with an adhesive sealant before painting helps keeps out even more water - for a while, at least.

A well-built squaring jig for assembly saves a lot of headaches. Make it 1/64" smaller than the inside dimensions of your hive and cover it with that light, brown packaging tape to ease glue removal. Square boxes that stack too tight for your hive tool won't in 5 years, and get less propolis on them.

Hope this helps. I build a lot of them - hobbyists don't, so hammers and nails are an option for them, as are screws.


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## newbury (Jul 19, 2014)

If you can't find the nail or screw you check out Mcmaster-Carr.
Often the big box stores and local brick and mortars don't stock what I want.
For example I just needed 30 flat U bolts for a project. Ordered from McMaster Carr Thursday afternoon, received them Friday afternoon with normal shipping.

They stock 4 varieties of 7d's.


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## Duranthas (Mar 17, 2012)

I've been using something like this and have had good results so far. Time will tell though...
That said, I still liberally apply Titebond 3 on mating surfaces and end grains so while the nails aren't backing out I'm betting it's the glue that is doing most of the work.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I've discovered that, here in the desert Southwest, nails, even ring shank nails, begin walking out of the wood within a few months. Then the boards, even those assembled using box joints (composed of interlocking fingers), soon start coming apart. Now, that I've been using Titebond III and coated deck screws to assemble them, this doesn't happen any more. And, since Titebond III and coated deck screws can even hold together boxes made with rabbet joints, and rabbet joints can be created and assembled quickly and easily, the lazy in me says, "go for it".

These days, I too have switched to staples, in combination with Titebond III. The coated deck screws were fine, but they took more time to install and were cost prohibitive. I never thought I'd graduate to staples. Staples seemed like overkill, but I wouldn't go back, now.

I suppose, if I were still living in a climate where nails would stay tight in wood, I'd be happy using 6d hot dip galvanized.


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