# Pertaining to the Pacific North West..nectar and pollen dates



## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Reading recent threads on growth and management thereof it seems a knowledge of local nectar and pollen dates...flows and dearth...timing is very important.

If those with beekeeping experience in this region could post flow and dearth dates with critical dates and associated activities it would be very helpful to those without experience to draw from.
Thanks.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

I'm just east of you in the Chilliwack area. Blooms in your area are usually a week earlier then ours. 

The bloom dates fluctuate from year to year by a week or 2 on either side so I'll just give an average start end date.

The first pollen comes from hazel nuts if you have them near an orchard (first 2 weeks of february) Yellow. Cedar (anytime through february) pale red. Cotton woods (last 2 weeks of february) orangey. Pussy willows (sometime in march) yellow. The pussy willow is thought be the first source of nectar but bees are moving honey around in the hives at this point too and that might explain the open honey around the brood area. plums (last 2 weeks of march) nectar and pollen.

April is when the dandilions, wild cherries, and maples blooms. It is the first major source of pollen and nectar in a large amount. If the hives have been build up suffeciantly enough, this flow can give you a surplus of honey. Things happen very quickly at this time too and this will be the time when bees will build up very quickly.

May is when the buttercups, Hawthorn, apples, and blueberries are in bloom. butter cups are more for pollen with not much nectar. If your not near any of the other sources, the bees will go through a bit of a dearth and it's at this time that you'd see the hives wanting to swarm.

June is when the raspberries and blackberries bloom. in some years the clover can start blooming in the farmers feilds at this time too depending on their cuttings and the weather. This is the start of the main flow in which maricles can happen.

July can continue into the main flow with the clover (if your near farmers feilds of pasture). White sweet clover is starting to bloom at this time too and lasts for a solid 5 weeks. Stands of white sweet clover are getting rare though. The clover flow, if it turns on just right, can give a standard of honey in as much as a weeks time. The weather has a lot to do with how long and how much it'll produce and usually dries up by the time we get to the end of july. 

August has not much to offer although the clover may still produce a bit through this time but it's usually being stored in the brood nest as the queen is pushed down below. we usually leave a partially full honey super with them to provide space for the population to finish off the season. Quite often they'll move a lot of the open honey down stairs. Good for them, they can use it.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Oh my...thank you so much! We have all but the hazel nut around us...one hazel nut bush hardly counts
We plan on top dressing the fields, and lawns, with white clover. Is one type of clover better than another and when is the best to top dress with it?

Do you run double or single deep brood boxes and do you use queen excluders?
In this region when do you think it best is to:
Take off winter insulation
Put on feed for spring build up
Watch for swarming
Make splits
Try raising queens...I plan on trying this this year
Any tips, advice, direction etc greatly appreciated.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

I will second most of what Will said, but, with a few changes. Here where we are, things happen about a week to 10 days later than in Vancouver for the most part.

In May you will see the buttercups, but, they are toxic to bees. Read this article http://beeinformed.org/2012/05/ranunculus-poisoning/

Just as an example, in June last year, Raspberries and Thimbleberries were stellar producers, scale hive notched up 30 pounds in just over a week, but the blackberries were a bust. Saw the first blackberry around June 15. August was pretty good for us, turns out there is a LOT of goldenrod in our area.

This chart shows how the hives progressed here, and it lines up for the most part with the dates Will has posted. The runup in the 3rd week of May was co-incident with the arbutus.



The big takeaway lesson from this exercise, be prepared, because when that flow comes, it comes fast and furious. I actually went and double checked the scale electronics on the day it went up by over 9lb in one day. And this big rush came at a time we didn't expect it, we had our expectations set for main flow being off of the blackberries, because that's what everybody told us. Well, that turned out wrong, raspberries and thimbleberries gave us the big jump, then in August the goldenrod run was totally unexpected.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

chillardbee said:


> August has not much to offer although the clover may still produce a bit through this time


Do you move any colonies up into logging patches for fireweed in August ? We did for the first time this year, just a few up into a yard the local club puts together for members to use. I was quite impressed with our result this year, 4 of the 6 we took up there, gave 2 full supers over the 4 weeks they were there. The other two went up as a split, with a box of empty frames on top hoping they would draw most of it out. They came back heavy and didn't need syrup to top them up for the winter. I probably should have supered those too, but I didn't expect that kind of run in such a short stay.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

Yeah, the blackberries are hit or miss for sure, most times a miss though. It seems to be they bloom just at the point where you can get heavy rains here and there which knock the petals off, but if it pans out, blackberries can be pretty good.

yes, The fireweed I didn't mention because most hobbiest don't do this. It seems the fireweed patches are getting rare and having good fireweed in those patches are rare too. The last good fireweed year I've had was in 07'. through the 90's we were rockin' the fireweed though with 10000#s of 40 hives in 98', that was a fabulous year for us.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

We don't have any golden rod...just ragweed which is useless. Not much here after the BlackBerry. They were bringing in small amounts of a pale cream coloured pollen today.



grozzie2 said:


> I will second most of what Will said, but, with a few changes. Here where we are, things happen about a week to 10 days later than in Vancouver for the most part.
> 
> In May you will see the buttercups, but, they are toxic to bees. Read this article http://beeinformed.org/2012/05/ranunculus-poisoning/
> 
> ...


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Humm, I don't know much about the fireweeds.
Is this the type Fireweed(Epilobium Angustifolium?)
How is the fireweed honey? They are expensive on the net.
And when do they usually bloom?



Is this the fireweeds?:


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I heard either hickory, or hazel nut is producing pollen in Oregon right now. Is this true?


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

beepro said:


> Is this the fireweeds?:


Sure looks like it. And this is what a good patch for bees looks like, this particular photo taken on July 26 last summer. Around here, the fireweed blooms at different times, based on elevation, so a lot of beekeepers will put the bees in a patch at a lower elevation early in the fireweed bloom, then move them to a patch much higher up the mountain later in the season to catch the later bloom.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

We used to see a lot of fireweed when we summered on northern Vanc Island. The photo brings back pleasant memories.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

yes, thats a nice patch of it right there. We had yards that were at the 700-900 meters elevation, the fireweed would start around the middle of july (fraser canyon area). That was through the 90's. In the later years we had yards at the 1200-1400 meters and the fireweed doesn't start until the first week of August. It seems the blocks in our area are getting smaller. The fireweed is also getting sprayed in some areas with herbicide leaving nothing but baren land where fireweed was once thick and then in other areas the fireweed is getting quite blighty. 

One thing about the hazel nuts in our area is the they are all infected with EFB (Eastern Filbert Blight), a nasty virus. I've just seen the first orchard destroyed, all the trees piled in the feilds for what looks like it's going to make some very nice bond fires. Other orchards have only about 10% of the tassels that they should have. I don't think these trees will be in the ground for much longer. Apperently there is a hazel nut resistant to EFB that was made in Oregon But the time it takes to get to production is much longer then other things that could be planted like blueberries (7-8 years to good production) or raspberries (2-3 years to top production). It a shame. Many of these orchards are over 50 years old and there were many orchards in the chilliwack area. I think there be no more hazel nut orchards left by 2018.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks for the confirmation.
Yes, these plants are rough and tough perennials that will fit perfectly into my
local area. Just bought 10,000 seeds to try.
Should bee pretty when they bloom during our summer drought with the yellow daisy like Nygers.
Too bad the only color I see is pink.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Olympia, WA 

Witch Hazel 
first bloom 1/19/2015

Hazelnut 
Noticed bloom same date, already in progress.
Estimated first bloom based on number of fallen catkins and recent weather approx 1/12/2015


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

chillardbee, is it possible to import the disease free hazel nut small trees to your area? Maybe
in a disease free area miles away but still bee accessible to the trees.

My Willow herb is in today. How many seeds into each gallon pot for planting? 
Does stratification needs water added too? Can I simply put the whole seed packet into the fridge to stratify them?

Willow herb seed pack:


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I would also agree with all said. The Filbert blight has been terrible down here in Oregon, it is now common to see half an orchard in a burn pile with small trees planted right in between. I understand the wind born pollens are poor in protein. 
I would add the spring flowers (crocus and daffodil) to the list as well as the soft maples (Red sunset, big leaf) which go mid-March. One of the biggest early flows if the weather lets them fly.
There is a type of ground cover heather here that is in full bloom from now until fruit bloom. We had a flying weekend and many bees were coming in with white pollen. 
We had multiple big forest fires here last year and I am going to see if I can get a small utility trailer of bees close and see if the fireweed turns up.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

minz, you are in bee heaven I think.
I thought the heather is a late autumn or early Fall blooming plant. Is it not?
You go the fireweeds there too? 

Over here there are many grass fields. What do you recommend to scatter there for
some bee plants esp. during the summer dearth here?


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

There is spring blooming heather ‘Erica-x’ typically a red or white that are very prolific in my area for landscapes. It blooms with the Pieris Japanica before the spring bulbs. 
I need something after Blackberry! I am going to try a milkweed that the butterfly and native pollinators have been giving away seeds and plants and a Catmint. We have a commercial guy here in the valley that always starts his presentation on honey crop ‘If you want to make a big honey crop-Move’. 
We get a little fireweed around the ditches and in burns areas, I have never got a patch but the inlaws still talk about getting greedy on the fireweed honey harvest to a point he got all of his hives snowed in.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The Borage is invasive with its seeds that dropped on the ground.
They will grow even in the cold and are frost resistant. If you grow them now it is just
in time after the berry. 
Their growth cycle is every 2 months to blooming. Almost one month of blooming time. So time
it out in your succession growing of them. I think planting some seeds every month will work until the
Fall. Then they can be overwinter too. Provide lots of pollen and some nectar for the bees.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

chillardbee said:


> The first pollen comes from hazel nuts if you have them near an orchard (first 2 weeks of february) Yellow.


Jan 29, and we have the first yellow pollen at the entrances today. Kinda early, but, it's been pretty warm lately.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

We also had large pollen coming in this weekend (Friday and Saturday actually) with the sunshine and nice weather. I hit my hives with pollen sub for the first time this spring, we will see if it will get them stronger for the spring flow.
I noted that the Oregon grape is starting to fill out. What kind of a PNW thread would this be without Mahonia (Oregon grape) and Salal?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

What color is the pollen that you saw today? I have been feeding pollen sub. to get them on an
early start in anticipating for the real thing to come in. 
Finally they have the yellow pollen from the red flower bush trees without the green leaves yet. The box wood is also blooming here. Too early I think. So did the 
groundhog see its shadow this year?
Must bee that your grape is the early growing type. My red flame, usually ripen in late August have no buds yet. They
do produce big bunches of grapes though.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

We have two types of Oregon Grape here, (Mahonia) the tall Aquifolium and the short Repens. They have long flowing yellow flowers that turn into blue berries in the fall. They are not grapes but a wild bush that has become popular for a landscape plant in parking strips and center traffic islands.
The pollen was a light cream color. I figured it was the heather ground covers that are blooming here now.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

So yesterday (Feb 6) was interesting. Bees were out in force, and looking at the entrances, I couldn't tell what they were finding, wasn't much to see in pollen baskets. But, by the end of the day, the scale hive was 2lb heavier than it was at the start of the day, so they were bringing _something_ in.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Oh to have that scale


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

We have lots of filbert catkins here, and what from a distance looks like some alders and big leaf maples may be getting an early start. Willows and pussy willow just getting going. More people than I can argue with are saying it's too early to give protein/pollen sub, but I'm leaning that way with the winter we've had. Temperatures this week nearly ten degrees (F) above normal. Worried about dry conditions during later nectar flows.


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## beepeep (Feb 8, 2015)

My first post but on the subject that brought me here.
The bees are out in force with the warmer weather. They have finished off 2 quarts of sugar water over the last week. Returning bees are full of pollen. I have them near a lush green belt. Predicted to be 59f 02/08/2014. I hope to learn more about the winter plants that the foraging bees are working.


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

Interesting. It's very early to feed liquid. As long as they take it, and there is enough ventilation, they'll do fine. Are you relatively new to beekeeping, or just new to posting? Tree pollens are the first big source of nutrition. Big leaf maples will provide the first significant nectar.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If the scale is 2 lbs more I would say they are bringing in
more water to use the excess honey to make more broods with.
You can check again in the noon time to see if the pollen is
coming in too as they are the most active around 12 - 1pm.

Yes, there will be a period of dry condition with the nectar flow.
So hopefully there are enough bees to take advantage of what is available
before the flow dry up. To compensate I have to plant buckwheat and canola to extend the flow pass the summer into Fall. They are working on the overwintered Borage that are blooming now. Looks like Spring is here early this year. The almonds are in full bloom now.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Welcome to Bee Source, beepeep!


Yes, where you're at I can see the many flower plants that can be overwinter for the bees in the
Spring time. Borage, yellow oxalis and the many allium family like paper white, tear drop, crocus, daffodils, etc. will
overwinter well if you plant them in the Fall. These will provide the early Spring pollen and nectar for your
bees to forage on. Bee sure to plant them close to form a big patch for better foraging. Bees prefer big patches or field of
blossom.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Degree day calculator has us 39 days ahead of the 30 year normal, 31 days ahead of 2014 and 33 days ahead of 2013. I put pollen sub on last weekend for the first time ever and am really going have to keep an eye out for an early build up. I figure we are finally getting rain here with the record high temps means that they can eat sub when they cannot fly. http://pnwpest.org/risk/models.
I am going to have to take a look at the maples, the flowers are so small you almost have to hold the branch to see them.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

rsjohnson2u said:


> More people than I can argue with are saying it's too early to give protein/pollen sub, but I'm leaning that way with the winter we've had.


Did you folks in Skagit have a winter this year ? We didn't have one yet, snow shovel never got used so far. 

The two week forecast for our area shows overnight lows well above historical day highs. I heard the frogs out last night, first time this year, and a visitor that stopped by yesterday said plums in full bloom at his place, just 20km down island from us. Things are starting WAY early. I mixed up a batch of sub yesterday, it'll go on the hives today if the rain lets up, otherwise during the first sunshine break next week. I dont want them to run out of brood food when we get a few days in a row where they cant fly.


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## beepeep (Feb 8, 2015)

Went on a hike through the greenbelt to see what was flowering (2/8/15 observation 98042). After reading seems I found an old stand-by and a out of place visitor. A splattering of Osoberry blossoms and a single tiny flowering Spurge Laurel.

http://www.watershedco.com/blog/pacific-northwest-native-shrubs-for-gardens/
Osoberry, sometimes called “Indian-plum,” (Oemleria cerasiformis) is the first native shrub to leaf out and flower in the spring. It’s often the only flower that early-emerging bees can use for food. Though the small, purple plums that female osoberry shrubs produce in the summer are bitter and astringent, birds love them. Some people say the crushed leaves smell like watermelon! Highly adaptable, osoberry can be placed virtually anywhere in the garden, though it prefers dappled sunlight and moderate moisture.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/57280226481162959/
This Pacific Northwest native plant was used by the Native Americans here. The berries are edible and were collected for future use. They are not very palatable, they are extremely bitter.

SPURGE LAUREL - Daphne laureola [Thymelaeceae]
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4834654177/in/photostream/
These appealing, shiny leafed shrubs are reminiscent of rhododendrons with their dark, evergreen leaves. The green-yellow flowers on this plant arrive in early spring.
It is a Class B Noxious weed in Washington state.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Weather cleared up a bit later this afternoon, so, we popped lids and started putting some sub on. Made up a mix a couple days back, recipe I found here on Beesource. 25lb 2:1 mixed in with 10lb water, let it sit for a couple days and it stiffens up so we can scoop it onto the bars. First question, will the bees like it ? Some couldn't wait long enough for us to get it onto the hive.



Bees are looking pretty good this year, it's still early February, and they are already brooding up. Here's a hive after we put a couple ice cream scoops on.



Here's one before we put it on.



They all looked like this, except for two. One was only on 4 frames, and one was on all 10 frames. Best I've ever seen the bees early in the spring.


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

Nice looking hives, grozzie2.


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

grozzie2 said:


> Did you folks in Skagit have a winter this year ? We didn't have one yet, snow shovel never got used so far.


Nope. Two separate periods of daytime lows in the twenties(F). Not a hint of snow. The pineapple express last week had the snow level at like 8000 feet. Two different almanacs called for mild winter, and seem right on so far.


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## howardmee (Feb 12, 2015)

Has anyone compiled these posts into a timeline??


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Hi, howardmee. Welcome to Bee Source!

What is the advantage of consolidating them in to a timeline?
Very often these posts are a bit long. And full of twists and turns.


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

If you're referring to bloom dates (as a timeline), there is a long running thread on that, but it is not geographical-region specific.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

If the thread continues to be updated, I've been planning to compile one for my own use. If I end up with something useful, I'll share it.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

rsjohnson2u said:


> Nope. Two separate periods of daytime lows in the twenties(F). Not a hint of snow. The pineapple express last week had the snow level at like 8000 feet. Two different almanacs called for mild winter, and seem right on so far.


Mild we have had, that's for sure. Yesterday we saw blooms on the ornamental plums next door. I keep reading all the references to 'northern' bees, well, the photos I posted above are definitely 'northern' bees, we are located at 50N. We had a winter similar to this a few years back, and folks were telling me that it was WAY to early to put honey supers on in late March. When they were finally starting to haul supers out of the sheds in April, we were extracting our first round of honey. Think the supers will be dusted off and set ready earlier rather than later this year.


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

At last night's meeting of Skagit Valley Beekeepers Association, there was some discussion of this "winter". Even old timers say it's way out of the ordinary, has been 6-10 years since they've seen it like this. Concerns centered on mite numbers (if bees kept more brood during mild Dec/Jan and elevated mite levels), starvation from early brood up (a: increased early stores used to raise brood, and b: effects of early large colony if trapped inside by wet/no fly weather later, say April). Commercials here well above eight frame minimum for almonds, many at ten frames, some as many as sixteen frames in early Feb. Pollen seems gone from Filbert catkins, either heavy rain last Saturday or high winds seems to have washed/blown it away. Some were predicting another (early) strong swarm season from neglected hives.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

First crocus opened here. I seen a daffodil along the road but it did not look 100% open.


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## beepeep (Feb 8, 2015)

Cedar pollen level is HEAVY!


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

I was out tilling a new patch on the back lot today, and we spotted the first dandelion of the season. Hard to believe, but, a dandelion blooming on Feb 22.


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## beepeep (Feb 8, 2015)

Thanks for the heads up. I had to go look and saw several in the yard.



grozzie2 said:


> I was out tilling a new patch on the back lot today, and we spotted the first dandelion of the season. Hard to believe, but, a dandelion blooming on Feb 22.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

It crazy down here! Our Crocus are almost done (not supposed to bloom until Mar 4), grandma’s plum, daffodils, sunset maples (March 12 last year). One of the peaches hit pink stage this weekend (April) and almost looks like I missed the spray chance on 1of 3. I have Oregon Grape open on the north side of the hill (April 15th last year), Red bud are open in force (March 8).


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

minz, I think your Spring is finally in full force. Are the girls all happily foraging yet?
Is the super on also?
We have a chill dip today. So not good since the plums are blooming now. Hope the temp.
is more stable soon.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Not really certain what to do here. 
Where the bees have eaten the pollen they are 200% of bees that have not. In locations where they have eaten the dry sugar they have put burr comb and started backfilling with nectar. I took 8 singles and added a deep under them and topped off the pollen. About half of the boxes were foundation just to give them something to work on. I have at least one empty box on everything as of Sunday.
It was 34 degrees when I got up this morning and rain and low temps should move in so I was afraid they may starve. I am not going to dig deeper until I can get the sugar off for winter and have an opportunity to get a new queen if I kill her.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Had to hunt to find our old thread on the PNW back.

An update, weather turned on the weekend here, after a long miserable wet month in March, the sun came out on Sunday, and it's out with a vengeance now, seeing day highs in the 17C range with the Maples in full bloom. The scale hive put on 3 pounds today, so I think it's safe to say 'The season is underway', and our first flow is going full blast now.

Our local forecast shows 10 days of sun over the next 14 days, which is about as good as one can ask for at this time of the year. It would be a great start to the year if the hives can get that first super full over the maple bloom.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Still not certain what I am doing this year with the goofy weather. It turned back wet and cold. I have apple blossoms on all the trees a good 3 weeks plus of normal so with nice weather forecast ahead I went to check a hive i had not checked in a while. 5 frames with queen cells on them, a nice looking green marked queen and lots of new frames for her to lay in. Honey super went from medium to light weight. I pulled the queen and 3 frames of brood and put her in a nuc. I pulled 4 frames of nice queen cells for a queen castle that I made up the second frame of brood in each division with a strong frame of brood from a hive I had demaree’ed up (knew I could grab frames and not get the queen). Probably the best thing about this hobby is that I seem to get less confident as I go. I have two new queens at a time I should just be seeing drones.


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

minz, looks like swarm reports coming out of the Willamette Valley already. We've had a couple up here in northern WA., but not much yet. Drones should be maturing by now. Maples are leafing out. We're supering for maple. Dandelions for some time. Cherries for a week, early apples a few days, maples. Commercial hives hit the blueberry fields last week.
Rain for Saturday when all the newbies hive their first packages (although there is a rumor packages are a week late due to bad California weather for shaking them).


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Grozzie...thanks for the scale update. I split some of my overwintered hives in half last weekend.


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

i am in port alberni and the bees are all over maple trees right now


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

I got yanked aside by a neighbor this afternoon, he wanted to show me how hard my bees are working. They are all over a cherry tree in his yard, that's in full bloom. It's a large tree, and there were hundreds of bees in the flowers.


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## Joe Nelson (Apr 24, 2014)

Does Douglas Fir pollen have any benefit to bees? Very thick at my place. All over the cars.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Sorry, the gogo link did not work!

Beekeeping is all local. I say to get your hives build and find a swarm and a place to hive them.
Whatever bee goals you have you can find it here or ask questions to help you out. Thanks.


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## Joe Nelson (Apr 24, 2014)

Scotch Broom is blooming right now.


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## danielleeeee (Apr 10, 2015)

Hi Beepro, Thank you so much for the nice response!


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## beepeep (Feb 8, 2015)

danielleeeee said:


> Hi Beepro, Thank you so much for the nice response!


How many threads have you rudely stepped on now asking strangers for money?

I want to post about my area but not with this scammer posing.


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## kanikka (Feb 16, 2015)

Can you tell me about the scale electronics that you use...is it a ready made or something you put together? Pics?


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Joe Nelson said:


> Scotch Broom is blooming right now.


you can always tell the Broom is on when the bees come back looking like a Cheetos! Lilac starting to bloom, Wild cherry is done, all of the apples are open here from the early Crab's and Gravenstien to the later blooming Liberty and King.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

kanikka said:


> Can you tell me about the scale electronics that you use...is it a ready made or something you put together? Pics?


I think Grozzie is an electrical wizard...he builds these things. I will be number one on his list when says he is ready to test a customer install


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