# To smoke or not to smoke...



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't think proper smoking is more stressful on the bees. Opening the hive is stressful. Smoking lightly (which you should do) AVOIDS more disruption from a mobilizing alarm.

Smoking heavily, of course, is very disruptive and seldom recommended unless there are extreme circumstances such as a very hot hive, and even then I'm not sure it doesn't just make them more angry to use it heavily.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

> how long can I get away without the smoker?

As long as you wish to not use it.

>I would guess is is much less stressful on the bees. 

I agree. The only time I use a smoker is when doing cut-outs. But REAL beekeepers use smoke every time they open a hive, or so I hear.


----------



## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

My bees let me know when I need the smoker. I have it lit and by my side, but don't smoke right away. If I hear a change in tone, smell a banana smell, or if they fly out at me when I remove the cover, I'll give them a puff and put the cover back on to let the settle down before I proceed.


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Is it the time? The disgusting smell of cedar chips or pine needles? The flashback of younger times when fire was "cool" and something bad happened, and you do not wish to be reminded? Do you think the bees are being harmed? Are you conserving resources like matches and paper? (asked in general, and not directed to any previous poster of this thread)

Where has this idea, discussed from time to time, originated about not smoking beehives? Is it neat to impress some other beekeeper on saying "I use no smoke?"

Smoking the hive can allow you to work the hive longer, work without halfway through realizing that some smoke could be helpful, and if used properly can be advantagous to the bees.

Whether its tobacco leaves, sumac pods, or smoke from just about anything, it has been shown that the smoke increases mite drop for a period of time. The actual opening of a hive does also, but smoke enhances this effect. If you blow smoke on your arm, can you not smell it for some time later? (and yes it does go away with time for those not inclined to use soap. And you can carry this over to honey being effected for those who think honey will smell like smoke.) Well, the bees are the same. They will groom and actually clean mites along the way after a good smoking.

Smoking the bees down off the topbar and edge of the hive also kills less bees when putting everything back together. Many bees are smashed as they are between the boxes and on the bars. And think about the queen hiding at the bottom of the frames of the box set aside, and then smashed when placed on top of all the other bees when the boxes are joined. Golly gee, my queen was here last week, what happened to her?

I wonder how effective the inspections are for those who use no smoke. Do they really do a frame by frame, spring and fall inspection of the entire hive. Yes the in between "looks" may be less than frame by frame in nature, but who doesn't look from time to time wihtout smoke. Should I say that I do not use smoke?

The smoker if used properly is a valuable part of beekeeping equipment.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>(asked in general, and not directed to any previous poster of this thread)

Whew! For a second there I thought I might get "flamed"  

>Where has this idea, discussed from time to time, originated about not smoking beehives? Is it neat to impress some other beekeeper on saying "I use no smoke?"

Yes, we have heard it here time and again. Quite simply my beliefs are that the smell of smoke is quite powerful, and since the bees have such an accute sence of smell, it IS stressful to them, and for some time afterwards.

If the situation is such that I need full armor to work my bees, then I put it on and go do what I have to do. I feel that they reassemble their unity and settle down much faster when I am done doing what I have to do when I use no smoke.

I hadn't considered the POSSIBILITY that grooming is generated by smoking, and quite frankly not sure if I want to buy that theory yet.

I don't smash very many bees as I am careful when re-assembling my boxes, giving them time to move. A bee brush is handy for this as well.

>I wonder how effective the inspections are for those who use no smoke. Do they really do a frame by frame, spring and fall inspection of the entire hive.

Count me as one who does. I think that it is probably due to the suit I wear. It is very rare for any bee to get to me unless I do something like not zipper up or close the legs. I have the confidance to go about my job at hand without the worry of getting nailed.

>The smoker if used properly is a valuable part of beekeeping equipment. 

There is a time and place of most everything, and those that do not use suits, veils, and gloves, could not do it without one. Well, I couldn't.


----------



## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

Early man found the advantages of using smoke when he made his drawings on the cave wall. I assumed he learned it from experience. Hopefully, we are as smart as he was and can learn when we need to use smoke and how much.
I alway went under the assumption that beekeeping equipment(suits, veils, etc.) was simular to PPE's(Personel Protective Equipment) in the workplace, and should be worn when they are needed.
Safety should always be of primary concern.


----------



## Rooster4473 (May 20, 2004)

I havent smoked yet this year, I hate messn with the smoker its a pain, and I have hives in 2 locations and hate traveling with a lit somker and I hate putting it out then having to relight it. I like to spritz the bees with sugar syrup and HBH, it weighs them down a little and gives em something to do. I do get the occasional Terminator Bee bouncing off my veil, but its kind cute. Im with Bullseye, I wear a full suit every time I go to check my bees, unless I'm just filling the feeder of something. But I will admit that last yeat, towards the fall I had one hive you just didnt bother without smoke and a full suit, they just wernt going for the sugar syrup trick.


----------



## kenpkr (Apr 6, 2004)

3rd yr beekeeper here. I wholeheartedly agree with Bullseye about the smoker. I've not used mine yet this year and have "torn apart" my hives on several occasions. Maybe I've been lucky so far this year in that my bees have been gentle enough not to have to use smoke or my full beesuit. I wear jeans, short sleeve shirt, cotton arm sleeves bought from Br. Mtn and playtex gloves, with veil, of course. I don't like being stung so if that were a real problem I would use smoke readily. And its not an idea that I'm being a "purist" or some other nonsense for not using smoke. I just think that it is disruptive to the bees and takes them quite a long time to clear the air of smoke in the hive after an inspection. I read somewhere that after the typical inspection using smoke, one can expect that invasion of the hive to take the bees a full day to repair and regain normal, pre-inspection conditions. If true, that's one day lost in honey/brood/whatever production. Just my thoughts. I'm sure I will use smoke some time this year but so far I haven't felt the need and don't see its use as being beneficial to the bees themselves.


----------



## eris (May 6, 2005)

Thanks folks for posting the info. As a brand new beekeeper I've not wanted to smoke my bees if I didn't need to (one thing at a time!). It's good to know that I don't HAVE to, unless the bees tell me otherwise!


----------



## Curry (Sep 22, 2003)

I've got close to 100 hives and I don't even OWN a smoker. But I do own a full bee suit or two.

To me, the smoker is a lot like the inner cover... there may have been a need for it in the past, but things change- people don't.

A smoker takes time to prepare and light, it puts a foreign odor in the hive (stresses queen), it's a fire hazard, and smoke gets in and on ME which is worst of all. I've got a bunch of hives at the house (in town) and elsewhere, so it can be done. I'm just more gentile with the bees at the house.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You all do what you want. Bees haven't changed. People have been smoking them for as long as there have been people and bees.


----------



## KyBee (Mar 1, 2005)

Count Zero:

I am new as well--only a couple of weeks ahead of you, and I had the same question. I light the smoker, but I've only used it a couple of times--and it's always been on how the bees behave. My bees are gentle like yours. If the conditions are not just right (barometric pressure dropping or something, clouds on the horizon) and when I'm taking the hive apart to look at everything and move frames around is when I've needed to use it to kind of calm them down. When I just take the top off to feed I don't need to smoke. It only took a few times going into my bees to sort of learn their mood by the way the act and sound. I haven't smelled the banana smell yet. I bet you'll figure it out the same way. 

I was told it was not a good idea to smoke brand new bees who've just been hived, and I didn't. But now I have it ready, and I agree that it it's good to always have it ready, but I guess I also think it's somewhat stressful for them too. According to the bee schools I've been to, it causes them to stick their heads in cells and engorge themselves with honey in preparation to evacuate the hive if necessary. That sounds kind of stressful.

I'm only posting because I'm like you and new and have just had the same questions and figured it out. Not much real life experience here, but also not married to "one way or the other" as it appears I will become as I grow more experienced.

Plus, and trust me on this one, smoker lighting practice is a GOOD thing.  

By the way, can anybody tell me, where is the link to the Michael Bush soup can smoker insert instructions?


----------



## Todd Zeiner (Jun 15, 2004)

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/SmokerInsert3.jpg 


I found the picture, I'm not sure about the instructions. It is basically a soup can with a bunch of holes that you sit inside the smoker and fill with the burlap or whatever. It works for me.

[ May 11, 2005, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Michael Bush ]


----------



## OldScout (Jul 2, 2004)

I was able to use a large dog food can as an insert for my smoker.


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

For the newbees....A new package being fed, and while a flow is on, with new foundation and little propolis, a young queen, hives not built up yet....give it some time. Full suits in the summer when its about 95 degrees and 95% humidity may change the outlook. Smoke can allow the average beekeeper to go without the gloves which something you will treasure one day. (And please spare me the macho dude or dudette who use no smoke or gloves) It is much nicer in a t-shirt and simply a viel for insurance versus the full head to toe gear that many wear in giving up the smoker.

I guess I wasn't really envisioning the full head to toe concept of beekeeping in saying that a smoker should be used. I guess if you like wearing all that gear and have nightmares about the stress you have imposed upon the bees, please continue.

As a side note...I worked about 20 nucs this evening in my jacket and gloves. And I was too tired to light up the smoker. 

Instead of burning bees, having heartache about bee stresses, and trying to get away with not showering for the day, how about this. Learn how to smoke, burn something pleasant in the smoker, and leave enough time for a quick rinse. (Maybe the wife not wanting to be close to you has nothing to do with smoke or beekeeping,....maybe its just you)


----------



## Sourwood (Mar 20, 2005)

Sometimes I use the smoker and sometimes not. Depending all on what I am doing in the hive or to it. But I can tell you if the smokers not lit it is nearby if I need it. "Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it" theory. I think it boils down to using common sense people. If the bees need calming, why not give them a little smoke?


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>You all do what you want. 

Thank you!

>Bees haven't changed.

I can't believe you said that! Ferrals, hybreds, large cell, small cell, Africanized, etc. They are all different from each other, even the ferrals have changed over the ages.

If you don't think the bees have changed, what made your Buckfasts become so vicious before you gave them up? I think they did change, and they sounded like the ones I had too, even smoke would not tame them.

I was thinking about this thread tonight while I was doing a cut-out in a garage ceiling. Just for s and grins I didn't use my GB suit, just a bug baffler, shorts, gloves, and no smoker. I really did not need any of it, (well, maybe the shorts), but the confidence of having something on really is needed when you are up a ladder. Sometimes you come across a hive that will let you do anything you want to do to it. Then sometims they want to kill you. The Boy Scouts motto says it all, "Be prepared". I have all my tools handy if needed, I just prefeer to use as little as needed whenever possible.


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

> I don't even OWN a smoker. But I do own a full bee suit


I don't even OWN a full bee suit. But I do own a smoker.


----------



## kenpkr (Apr 6, 2004)

I wonder if there have been controlled studies done on the efficacy or potential harm done by using smoke. If not, it would be a good research project for some grad student somewhere. So far, its been my experience that the smoke makes the bees engorge with honey, and basically "act" a lot different than they do when I don't smoke. They're agitated and don't like smoke. Now, if one has a hive that is fiesty, then smoke might be helpful and should probably be used. But if they are gentle and don't bother you when you work the hive, why bother with a freakin' smoker?! As a hobbyist, I have the option of not having it lit everytime I get ready to open a hive. Its not that way with others, I'm sure.


----------



## KyBee (Mar 1, 2005)

tzeiner, thanks for the link to the soup can insert.

I had a wood stove in my home the entire time I was a little girl, used a wood stove for heat for the first 12 years I was married, build fires three to four times per week in the back yard fire pit now, from scratch, with wet wood and dry. I'm not half bad at it. I am not fire challenged. But with fire, you want flame, not smoke.

I am most definitely smoker challenged. I can't keep the smoker going long with nice cool smoke worth a darn. :0/ If I set it down to work the hives, it goes down to a barely-there smoulder. Not a smoulder you can just puff back to life without a hassle. 

I'm hoping this soup can insert I've heard tell of will help.


----------



## COUNT ZERO (Apr 8, 2005)

Wow!
I never expected such a response on this thread. I actually love my smoker. I confess to lighting it more than once before I actually even got the bees. I'm sure, like most of you, I'll use it sometimes and not others. It just goes to show that there is never one opinion about anything regarding beekeeping and I love that aspect of the hobby/profession. Thanks for all your passionate input!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>Bees haven't changed.

>I can't believe you said that! Ferrals, hybreds, large cell, small cell, Africanized, etc. They are all different from each other, even the ferrals have changed over the ages.

But the underlying EHB bees are still bees, still have the same instincts, and smoke still has the same effect.

>If you don't think the bees have changed, what made your Buckfasts become so vicious before you gave them up? I think they did change, and they sounded like the ones I had too, even smoke would not tame them.

True, smoke made no perceptable difference with them. But I'm assuming they are a different kind of bee altoghether, not a change in bees in general.


----------



## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I always light the smoker unless I am just feeding, or popping the top for a minute. If I am going to remove a frame then I have it ready. I can't imagine trying to put the second deep on top of the lower one without smoke or killing hundreds of bees.

Afte 5 minutes, my bees have always had a good chance of just boiling out on all four sides. They arent' necessarily flying, but just covering the sides of the box. I can't imagine what a bee brush would start at that point.

Actually one of the cool times beekeeping is when I run out of smoke with just a few minutes left in a big hive and I hear them suddenly rev up the sound. I know that I need to be putting everything back together or shortly all heck will break loose.

I think that it is wise to always have it ready, even if you don't plan (or want) to use it.


----------



## Beemaninsa (Jun 9, 2004)

I don't know if smoking is easier or harder on the bees. Maybe its the wrong way to look at it but smoking the bees is easier on ME. I often smoke 2 or 3 puffs and wait a min or 2 before I open a hive. With real mean bees, I smoke the hel* out of them. Smoke em till they choke, smoke myself, the air and anything within smoker distance. Smoke smoke smoke. I think a smoke helps, and if not, it makes me feel better. Hope I don't get lung cancer.


----------



## KyBee (Mar 1, 2005)

Quote by Count Zero:
"It just goes to show that there is never one opinion about anything regarding beekeeping and I love that aspect of the hobby/profession."

HA! Then you will love it forever! I'm finding out the ask 10 beekeepers get 12 opinions is SO true! As a newbie, I like different input too. I just try to remember that what works for one person and one bunch of bees may or may not work for someone else, and everybody really seems willing to help out new people like me, which is very cool, cuz without help, I would have been WAY intimidated. :0)


----------



## BeeTheBee (Mar 27, 2015)

I do not see the need for smoke. To mask a pheramone or our oder or alarms or to just to say hello I'm here. I've tried both, smoke and not smoke. Smoke changes the entire Tenor of the hive, it goes from mild bee conversations and such a mellow feel to almost a Rage and Chaos even just from a lttle at the entrance. They start buzzing at me and they act really upset for a long time afterwards. The activity at the entrance changes drastically. They know who I am. They know I wont hurt them. They know what I do. I move slow and do complete hive inspections without smoke. I cant believe we think its in their best interest to Smoke them. If you are gentle all the way through-if you want to get a feel for the bees and the hive and the aroua they give off they just let them be. I do have a Top Bar Hive and this is not some kind of natrual vs unatrual management comment. This is what works for me and seems best for the bees. BTB.


----------



## MariahK (Dec 28, 2014)

I love my smoker. I have 1 hive super gentle and only give them an occasional little puff the other are evil attack bees where I find a smoker is my best friend even on a good day I need it to get to a frame because they come boiling up out and on top of those frames so fast. I can't even grab a frame but a little smoke at them and they run down, or if they get bounce happy on me I smoke around me and they back off fast. I figure I always have it lit for either hive no matter what because they can change moods pretty fast.


----------



## Pete O (Jul 13, 2013)

We ALL learn our lessons through experience. At some time we ALL will encounter a hostile hive. We all make our own choices in equipment and techniques but none of us should ignore the experience of others. 

I'm a relatively inexperienced beekeeper of three years. If I pull a frame, I WILL use a smoker.


----------



## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

COUNT ZERO said:


> I did my first hive inspection today on two new packages. I didn't even light my smoker because it was just a quick check to see if the queens were released. The bees were so gentile. Almost no flying up and no stings. Obviously, there is only 3# of bees in each hive and this will increase exponentially but how long can I get away without the smoker? I would guess is is much less stressful on the bees.


just use a smoker. it's easy, and once you get the hang of it, it's not bad. use pine needles, or those little wood pallets or wood chips. it works great. \
remember, that is your only way of controlling the bees, or water, so if the situation gets out of hand, what would you do? 
e responsible, and be prepared. smoke does not kill bees, and I promise you that working them without smoke, I do not care how gentle you think they are, it will stress them more than sing a smoker. I fired 4 people for not using a smoker, caught them working bees once, all suited up, and clouds of bees flying. I fired them, and send them home. my grandpa used a smoker in 1930 and I use one in 2015, and I know my great grandpa used a pipe to smoke his hives. on the other hand, from my recent family exploits, we can count 5 dead cows, 2 horses, about 1 dozen dogs, one of my cousins is now allergic to bees, we had to dispense a few epi-shots and run a few people to hospitals. that is only what I can remember in the past 30 years. your choice of what kind of beekeeper you would be, but let me tell you something.... since Langstroth and Dadant, we have invented nothing new in this business. we might have painted something in a different color, but the rest is still the same old trick. 
I understand wanting to limit the use of it, I do to, because of the smell and inhalation, but, I always have one lit as I open my first hive. when everything works good, you might not need it, but all it takes is that one time for things to go wrong, and you will pay for it for the rest of your life.
I worked bees on 3 continents my friend, and I always worked them with a smoker, not as much to protect me, I am not at all disturbed by stings, but to protect the bees and others from what I know a beehive can be. I am not saying light them up with it, but just use common sense.
and another piece of experience I would like to share with you, listen to what other beekeepers tell you, look at your hives, look inside you, and do what you think it's best for your bees and yourself. there are as many techniques as beekeepers ( I learned from my dad, and uncles, yet we argue each time we sit down and talk bees).

sorry, but I get a bit spirited in my rhetoric. have a great week and be safe


----------



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I moved two swarms earlier this week - both had entrance screens. The smaller (one deep and one medium) lit my hands up thoroughly when I took the screen off. The larger (3 deeps) had more bees on the screen than the smaller one, and with a bit of smoke we got through the unscreening with no death on the bees part and no stings on mine. It was a good reminder - the smoke isn't just to keep the bees under control - it is to keep them from dying. I'm as guilty as the next when it comes time to trying to shave a few minutes off a trip. This was an excellent reminder that having the smoker available and going is a must do!


----------



## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

If it's not needed then don't use it. If you need it smoke em. I have 1 hive that I have to and 2 hives I do not.


----------



## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

this fall if ya can take any honey off do it in a short sleeve shirt w/o smoke and let us know how it goes.lol


----------



## Lightswitch (May 29, 2014)

First year beek here. Two hives. I get a kick out lighting the smoker: I guess the part of me that likes to play with fire never really died.


----------



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

People have been smoking bees to allow manipulation for 8000 years but I suppose times are changing. sigh.


----------



## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I haven't had to light the smoker yet this year. I'm always suited up, and can get to it fairly quickly, but just haven't had the need to. I can choose my moments - a warm sunny mid-day, with a good flow, and they more or less ignore me. If the weather is inclement, I just wait it out ('did a lot of that this spring). I worried a bit more than I needed to - the bees took care of business - rearing a few more supersedure queens than I would have liked, but it's all working out anyway.

Last year I had one hive that was really mean. Smoke didn't help much, but dividing & re-queening sure did . Once I got rid of that nasty monster, the rest of the hives seemed to settle down as well. This year has been a delight, thus far. 15 hives, and all as calm as can be. 

& Yes, to smoke or not is usually a "hot" topic...:lpf:


----------



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I will use the smoker on a hot hive, but very little smoke. My other hives are inspected first without the smoker and do just fine.
I'm doing a trapout of an old maple tree in which the bees have been there over two years now. The set up (screening, tar paper, sealing the entrance, cone, trap out hive, etc.) as was done with no suit or gloves. Very gentle bees. 
Removed my second medium FULL of bees yesterday with no protection.... still gentle.
The bees temperament will let you know the best course of action.


----------

