# Cerana top bar hive



## BeesOnly (Dec 25, 2010)

Looking for information on top bar hives for Apis cerana. Anyone can help me out ?
Regards,
EJ Robberts
Spain
www.philippinebeekeeping.com
#beesonly


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Do cerana like being kept in boxes? I thought they build combs out in the open. No?


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

I've seen pics of cerana fanning on a regular hive entrance, so I know they can be kept in hives.

Their fanning technique is an easy way to tell them apart from European honeybees. Euro bees face the hive entrance with their butt pointed away from the hive. Cerana fan with their butt facing the hive.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Actually the direction of the rears is dependant on the climate and necessary measures to control the inner climate of the hive... late summer in MS, bees on one side of the entrance will face away pushing air in...while bees on the other side will face in drawing the air out... they have moisture and temp control down pat. Lol.

Cerana are mainly kept the same way that we keep our colonies... they are pretty much the "eastern" version of our bees... very closely matched in many ways.

Hive bodies in Afganistan for a Cerana apiary


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Ej, what exactly would you like to know? Are you looking for equipment or design ideas?


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## BeesOnly (Dec 25, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> Ej, what exactly would you like to know? Are you looking for equipment or design ideas?


Actually yes, I am looking for suggestions for dimenstions for the design of topbar hives for cerana. And I appreciate the other replies as well. There are some significant differences in the biology of mellifera and cerana. When I was in the Philippines last january I was visiting the University at Los Baños where they succesfuly developed a management technique for keeping cerana, however in frame boxes. As is being done with the European hive. 
Where I am interested in is developing a TBH easy to construct and maintain for the rural poor. I have been searching the net for it but find little info. Or should I just take the dimensions for the mellifera and "adapt" the sizes for cerana convenience ?
The scientist I met at the UPLB told me that the bees on the hive entrance were grooming each other, apparently to get rid of parasites, that is a way they control varroa. It is one difference between the 2 species. As Varroa always developed with cerana but never with melifera, that is why mellifera never developed the grooming technique as they arrive at the hive entrance....
Regards from Spain and thank you for looking into the matter EJR


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Actually Mellifera do groom varroa mites off of each other as well... The difference is more so in the type of varroa... Cerana are attacked by Varroa (J "Japan or Jacobsini"), where as Mellifera are attacked by Varroa (R "Russia"). (R) thrives off of the larvae more so than adults, thus the hygenic behavior of Mellifera has become more apt to remove infected larvae... (J) is somewhat larger and tends to have more of an effect on adult populations, thus their natural adaptations have been more focused on cleaning the adults as quickly as possible. It was actually in the Phillipines 40-50 years ago that Cerana and Mellifera colonies kept near one another began to "share" mites... The (J) varroa began to attack Mellifera as well as Cerana... This has caused a great deal of panic across the globe as countries such as the US try to secure their borders to keep Cerana (and thus (J) from entering... Austrailia has recently descovered several hundred colonies of Cerana and thus the US has banned all bee imports that would normally have come from there. 

I would imagine that the priciple design of the Mellifera TBH would work well for Cerana, there may be slight variances in "Bee Space", but this will be easy for you to address as long as your top bars are free moving so you can adjust the space between bars as wax is produced. If I can be of any further help, please feel free to ask.


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## BeesOnly (Dec 25, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> Actually Mellifera do groom varroa mites off of each other as well... The difference is more so in the type of varroa... Cerana are attacked by Varroa (J "Japan or Jacobsini"), where as Mellifera are attacked by Varroa (R "Russia"). (R) thrives off of the larvae more so than adults, thus the hygenic behavior of Mellifera has become more apt to remove infected larvae... (J) is somewhat larger and tends to have more of an effect on adult populations, thus their natural adaptations have been more focused on cleaning the adults as quickly as possible. It was actually in the Phillipines 40-50 years ago that Cerana and Mellifera colonies kept near one another began to "share" mites... The (J) varroa began to attack Mellifera as well as Cerana... This has caused a great deal of panic across the globe as countries such as the US try to secure their borders to keep Cerana (and thus (J) from entering... Austrailia has recently descovered several hundred colonies of Cerana and thus the US has banned all bee imports that would normally have come from there.
> 
> I would imagine that the priciple design of the Mellifera TBH would work well for Cerana, there may be slight variances in "Bee Space", but this will be easy for you to address as long as your top bars are free moving so you can adjust the space between bars as wax is produced. If I can be of any further help, please feel free to ask.


Good day and a very happy new year. Thanks a lot on responding and explaining about the varroa issue. In march I will visit the RP again and will start some designs for TBH and test them out. 
Kind regards, Evert Jan Robberts
www.philippinebeekeping.com


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Do you have cerana in Spain?


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

What is this?



> Cerana are attacked by Varroa (J "Japan or Jacobsini"), where as Mellifera are attacked by Varroa (R "Russia").


My understanding is Varroa destructor and jacobsoni both attack Apis Cerana. The Russian Varroa is referred to as the Korean (K1-1). J1 is also a V. destructor not jacobsoni We have both K1-1 and J1-1 in North America.

I would be interested in reading your references.

Thanks!


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## BeesOnly (Dec 25, 2010)

In Spain there is no cerana, as far as I know only in Asian countries. And, as I understand now from this forum, also in the USA? What the reason may be I fail to understand.
I am a Dutch national, presently living in Spain but used to work as an agricultural advisor in the Philippines. Bit by bit preparing to return to the RP to work on cerana. 
I have some contact with Spanish beekeepers. Bees here are also very defensive , that is why many try to import queens from Eastren Europe and get their stock more docile.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Evidence suggests that the mite V. destructor is a complex species. Studies have shown a correlation between the various genotypes of the mite and its fertility in different geographical regions (de Guzman and Rinderer, 1999). This information could be helpful in understanding the diverse effects and relationships of the mite with bees in different regions of the world.

DNA analysis by the randomly amplified polymorphic DNA (RAPD) technique has permitted a more precise study of the genetic variability among mite populations (Kraus and Hunt, 1995), and has led to the identification of three distinct genotypes of the mite V. destructor: Russian (R), Japanese (J) and Papua New Guinea (PNG) (de Guzman et al., 1997; Anderson and Fuchs, 1998). 

In a previous study, Kraus and Hunt (1995), using the RAPD technique, identified bands that are common to mites from Germany and the United States, but are absent in mites from Malaysia. Using the OPE-07 primer, the R genotype has been characterized by the presence of a 766-bp band, which is absent in mites with the J genotype (de Guzman and Rinderer, 1999). The use of the OPP-03 primer permitted the detection of a 442-bp band characterizing the R genotype. Genotype J does not possess this band but produces two distinct bands of 675 and 412 bp, which are absent in the R genotype.

Worldwide differences in the infestation of A. mellifera bees with the mite V. destructor suggest a correlation between some genotypes and a higher or lower virulence of the mite. DNA analyses have revealed variable V. destructor genotypes infesting A. mellifera and A. cerana in Asia (de Guzman et al., 1997; Anderson and Fuchs, 1998). A low virulence of the PNG genotype has been well documented in Papua New Guinea and Indonesia (Anderson and Fuchs, 1998). 

In contrast, marked losses of A. mellifera colonies are observed in countries in which the R genotype occurs, such as the Philippines and Korea (Cervancia, 1993). In Vietnam, the mite V. destructor represents the main agent causing damage to apiculture, with A. mellifera colonies harboring mites with the R genotype, while A. cerana colonies harbor mites with the J genotype (de Guzman and Rinderer, 1998). 

This finding may be explained by the differential reproduction of the mite in A. mellifera and A. cerana colonies, as observed in Japan, where only the J genotype (de Guzman et al., 1997) and the two bee species exist (A. mellifera and A. cerana) and where no loss of colonies has been observed since 1970 (Yoshida, cited in de Guzman and Rinderer, 1999).

Studies showed a worldwide distribution of the R genotype, including Europe, United States, Mexico, and Argentina, while the J genotype is restricted to Japan, Brazil, Puerto Rico, and some states in the United States (de Guzman et al., 1997). However, in the specific case of Brazil, analyses have been based on mites sampled only from apiaries in Rio de Janeiro State in 1990 and 1993. 

Therefore, the study of mites from various other regions of Brazil, mainly the south region (Rio Grande do Sul and Santa Catarina), could reveal the presence of the R genotype also in Brazil, especially considering the proximity to Argentina (R genotype). The importation of European queens from the United States, Europe and Argentina by Brazilian beekeepers and proximal geographical contact with Argentina (natural swarm dispersion) itself could have been two ways for this genotype to arrive in Brazil.

Sorry, most of my posting is late at night. So I did not go further into detail. There have been more recent studies that have shown that the species are even more complex than we had originally thought. We are no longer working on VD genome research, so I am afraid that my knowledge of the more recent studies would be lacking. I believe a research group in NZ has been working on it more recently and they may be able to give us a few updates. 

Hope this helps!


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

BeesOnly said:


> In Spain there is no cerana, as far as I know only in Asian countries. And, as I understand now from this forum, also in the USA? What the reason may be I fail to understand.
> I am a Dutch national, presently living in Spain but used to work as an agricultural advisor in the Philippines. Bit by bit preparing to return to the RP to work on cerana.
> I have some contact with Spanish beekeepers. Bees here are also very defensive , that is why many try to import queens from Eastren Europe and get their stock more docile.


To my knowledge, there are no Cerana in the US, unless they are in a lab environment... but I HOPE that none of our bee labs would have any live models... 

Good luck on getting back to the RP to further your studies! I know you will do well.


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