# Feeding sugar from the bag, over inner cover, as some do with fondant...



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

For "emergency" or insurance feeding I have always used baker's fondant but I know many use the "MountainCamp" / Johansson method.

To avoid breaking the inner covers loose why not simply place bags of sugar directly over the opening in the inner covers.

The bags could be prepared by setting the bags of sugar onto trays containing a small amount of water. The water would moisten the sugar at the bottom of the bags, and after several days ( or longer) of drying the bags of sugar could be used. The bag would be cut open on the hardened bottom and placed over the inner covers.

I see a few advantages:

1. The propolis seal of the inner cover remains intact

2. There is less paper introduced into the hive

3. Some moisture may permeate out through the mass of sugar

4. Unused sugar could be used to make syrup in the Spring

5. Sugar can be replenished without opening the hive

I would suspect that it would be sufficient to saturate perhaps the bottom inch of the bag of sugar with water, and then allow it to dry on a flat surface. In use, I believe enough moisture will be available to prevent the sugar "ceiling" from breaking open, and dumping the sugar into the hive. Otherwise, one could saturate the entire bag of sugar and be certain that the sugar won't pour down...

This would eliminate the work and energy cost associated with making candy boards or sugar bricks.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

It might work, but you'd need a medium or larger empty to cover the sugar. The other issue I see is that the bees have limited access to the sugar from the hole in the IC vs a much large area in the MC method.........

The MC method does eliminate the work & energy of candy boards/bricks......

Try it and let us know.........


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

The bees have even more limited access when feeding from some nail holes in a jar lid, or from one of Randy Oliver's feeders using soldered inserts:











> The MC method does eliminate the work & energy of candy boards/bricks......


Yes, and it also eliminates the airtight seal of the inner cover.


----------



## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Did some experimenting feeding on the upper side of an inner cover. Have a 2 1/2 inch feeder rim. The center hole in my inner covers is 3 1/2 inch in diameter.

Placed 4 inch squares of block candy around the perimeter of the center hole. Cluster would move up through the hole and work on the blocks some 75% of the time. In cold weather, the bees were down below. 

Had 2 inch insulation on three sides of hive and then black paper aound. Thinking of adding 3/4 inch on front side this winter. Bought a $7 thermometer c/w humidty meter and placed it beside the blocks for my curiousity.

The notch in the inner cover was down and open and also had a 3/4 inch round hole in front side of feeder rim.

This configuration has minimal impact on hive temp and good for curious bee keeper.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

BeeCurious said:


> The bees have even more limited access when feeding from some nail holes in a jar lid, or from one of Randy Oliver's feeders using soldered inserts:


I agree, but they are taking in syrup vs hard sugar..... Again, try it and let us know.....


----------



## Beesknees01 (Dec 31, 2012)

My bees are very fussy, I tried dry sugar and moist .. It's not working, they need the feed but throwing sugar crystals outside the hive.


----------



## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Best to have a solid mass of sugar in contact with the cluster for emergency feeding. They cannot access the syrup that forms otherwise (they do not consume solid sugar, only syrup) when it's cold.

Mountain camp (dry sugar on top of a sheet of newspaper sitting on the top bars) works fine IF the sugar is misted with water to keep it solid long enough for the humidity in the hive to start to melt it. Otherwise, the bees simply carry it out as trash.

They simply cannot use the sugar above the inner cover when it's below 45 F inside the hive, since they will be clustered and won't be in contact with it. When the feed is sitting on the top bars, they can cluster ON it, and feed from it while still clustered. Much better.

Bees will cheerfully eat fondant, dry sugar, sugar bricks, whatever up on the top of the inner cover any time it's warm enough for them to move there, but they really need it accessible when clustered if they are that short on stores.

Peter


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Best to have a solid mass of sugar in contact with the cluster for emergency feeding.

And that's why I would put it on the top bars rather than the inner cover.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

BeeCurious said:


> Yes, and it also eliminates the airtight seal of the inner cover.


Does that really matter so much?


----------



## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> >Best to have a solid mass of sugar in contact with the cluster for emergency feeding.
> 
> And that's why I would put it on the top bars rather than the inner cover.


Me, too. And in addition to spraying or misting with water only, I mixed in a little HBH so maybe they'd like it a little more.


----------



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I've never had a problem with them throwing it out or not eating it when placed on damp newspaper on the top bars. I carry a spray bottle of water when I install sugar tops, dampen the newspaper, pour the sugar, then lightly mist the pile to crust it over. I have also had nice buildups on it in Jan-Mar, so I don't consider it just emergency feeding.


----------



## Beesknees01 (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks for that, I'm going to try your method. It's easier than making fondant and the use of corn syrup. Someone recommended adding lemongrass and tea tree oil to the sugar! I haven't tried that yet


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Essential oils will not only disrupt the microbes but tend to set off massive robbing...


----------



## Beesknees01 (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks Michael, many have even recommended wintergreen and tea tree oil to help control varroa.


----------



## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

Placing it on the top bars over newspaper, -- eventually a considerable portion of the sugar falls between the frames onto the screen bottom board, to the ground and causes a major ant problem in the spring. Been there done that (1 season) . Far better to place the sugar onto the inner cover, moisture from the bees permeates the sugar keeping it in place and allows for them to consume it readily. Leftover sugar can easily be collected in the spring for use in sugar syrup. No waste, no extra problems (ants), no propolis seal broken, no bothering of the winter cluster, etc. (49 seasons). Sometimes when something works well... OMTCW


----------



## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

Michael Bush said:


> >Best to have a solid mass of sugar in contact with the cluster for emergency feeding.
> 
> And that's why I would put it on the top bars rather than the inner cover.





psfred said:


> Best to have a solid mass of sugar in contact with the cluster for emergency feeding. They cannot access the syrup that forms otherwise (they do not consume solid sugar, only syrup) when it's cold.
> 
> Mountain camp (dry sugar on top of a sheet of newspaper sitting on the top bars) works fine IF the sugar is misted with water to keep it solid long enough for the humidity in the hive to start to melt it. Otherwise, the bees simply carry it out as trash.
> 
> ...


Has always worked for me.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Placing it on the top bars over newspaper, -- eventually a considerable portion of the sugar falls between the frames onto the screen bottom board, to the ground and causes a major ant problem in the spring. 

Not if you get it damp and make it clump.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

What is the technique for making it clump? Spray it in layers on a cookie sheet maybe?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What is the technique for making it clump?

I put a thin layer of sugar on 1/2" to 2" (it's not rocket surgery) and spray some water on it until it's damp. Add another 1/2" to 2" and repeat. Once winter sets in the humidity from the bees' respiration will clump it further. It will be a rock come spring.


----------



## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> >What is the technique for making it clump?
> 
> I put a thin layer of sugar on 1/2" to 2" (it's not rocket surgery) and spray some water on it until it's damp. Add another 1/2" to 2" and repeat. Once winter sets in the humidity from the bees' respiration will clump it further. It will be a rock come spring.


If there's any sugar left, you can still make syrup with it if you want to.


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

psfred said:


> snip
> They simply cannot use the sugar above the inner cover when it's below 45 F inside the hive, since they will be clustered and won't be in contact with it. When the feed is sitting on the top bars, they can cluster ON it, and feed from it while still clustered. Much better.
> 
> Bees will cheerfully eat fondant, dry sugar, sugar bricks, whatever up on the top of the inner cover any time it's warm enough for them to move there, but they really need it accessible when clustered if they are that short on stores.
> ...


Update:

I visited most of my hives today, placing a little (insurance) fondant on some nucs, and checking for losses.

One particular colony had a prepared "SugarBag" placed on it last month... And, in spite of the cold (28°F) bees were active up inside the bag of sugar. I don't know if the temperature inside the hive could have been 45°.

I had rinsed off my hive tool before checking on the "SugarBag" and packing up. When I was finally ready to leave ice had started to form on the wet hive tool...

So... I have bees feeding in a bag of sugar (on the inner cover) when ice will form on a wet hive tool.


----------



## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> One particular colony had a prepared "SugarBag" placed on it last month... And, in spite of the cold (28°F) bees were active up inside the bag of sugar. I don't know if the temperature inside the hive could have been 45°.


I wouldn't put too much stock in the idea that bees won''t access the sugar when the temp inside is lower than 45 degrees.

I've had bees flying and bringing stuff in in their pollen baskets at 45, so moving a few inches to eat wouldn't be a problem.


----------



## dnichols (May 28, 2012)

What I don't understand is the original Mt Camp method didn't state you had to spray water on the sugar. I've seen a couple YouTube videos of guys spraying water on the paper but it actually provided too much moisture. Mold formed. I guess it is different for everyone.


----------



## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

Countless beekeepers have placed gran. sugar on their inner covers for years. I've used the method with hundreds of hives successfully for wintering for 50 + years. Heat from the cluster rises and keeps the area on top of it warmer than the rest of the hive. Just look at the center of the snow mass on top of a hive cover, the center melts. Placing sugar on paper on top of frames is just asking for a serious ant problem in the spring. OMTCW


----------



## Beesknees01 (Dec 31, 2012)

I put some sugar in the blender to make icing cake sugar for bees, added little water - bees loved it


----------

