# My beloved Mann Lake, no longer



## Oh_Beehave (Apr 8, 2013)

Yeah, I know I'm behind schedule ordering my honey bottles for this year...but it wasn't the limited selection that rubbed me the wrong way, it was the shipping charge. I was planning on ordering two bulk packs of the 1# hourglass and one bulk pack of 1/2 pounders to get me started for the year (order totaled $559). Shipping was $325!! *Three hundred and twenty five dollars!* And they were shipping from MN to NE! For that kind of money I explained to the gal in customer service that I can drive the 16hrs round trip, stay in a no tell-motel, and still have a little left over in my pocket when I get home. I ended up finding similar bottles from a plastics supplier for LESS per bottle and, when shipping is figured in ($40), I still saved $0.05/bottle. I've purchased quite a bit of stuff from ML in the past when Speedee delivered for them, but recently shipping cost has made their products cost prohibitive...seemed to happen about when they acquired Kelley Bee I'm sorry Mann Lake, I'll continue to peruse your catalogs and order some smaller stuff from you, but as a price-conscious customer I will be taking my (small, hobby) business elsewhere. I know that might sound like a rant, but it really pains me to break ties with Mann Lake...they've been good to me over the past 10 years and I will miss them. Unfortunately, my meager profits are more important to me than their relationship.


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## Newbeek2021 (May 13, 2021)

So.....who was the other supplier? Seems like good info to have in case the rest of us run into a similar situation


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## Oh_Beehave (Apr 8, 2013)

Sailor Plastics. Sailor Plastics | PET Plastic Bottle Manufacturer & Supplier Company


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Hmmm . . . 


Now that Mann Lake has _vanquished_ Brushy Mountain, acquired Kelley Beekeeping and the Little Giant beekeeping line from Frandsen, and become an "_affiliate_"  of private equity firm Grey Mountain Partners, seems like they are now not quite the _same ol' Mann Lake_ . . .


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

For as long as I can remember, ML has always excluded honey containers from its ">$100 Free Shipping" policy. It has always made them an uneconomic option for glass ware and bottles for me. However, they will still ship woodenware and almost anything else for free if you purchase over $100 in merchandise. Just not containers. I think a lot of people use Sailor Plastics. I drive 8 hours round trip once a year with a trailer to get all of mine from Rossman Apiaries. Picked up two pallets last month. The shipping costs is insane on glassware.


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## Newbeek2021 (May 13, 2021)

Thats crazy....dare i whisper the words "monopoly"?!
Or is it just post pandemic shipping/receiving/recouping lost costs shenanigans


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## Oh_Beehave (Apr 8, 2013)

I guess for a measly $2155 I could have had them tomorrow...so ML at least gave me an option to ponder.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Oh_Beehave said:


> View attachment 64550
> 
> 
> I guess for a measly $2155 I could have had them tomorrow...so ML at least gave me an option to ponder.


You should pull the trigger cheapskate!


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

psm1212 said:


> For as long as I can remember, ML has always excluded honey containers from its ">$100 Free Shipping" policy.


I buy hex honey jars from Mann Lake for my workplace and have gotten free shipping. Haven't bought them in 2021 yet, usually buy in November for the next season.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Oh_Beehave said:


> View attachment 64550
> 
> 
> I guess for a measly $2155 I could have had them tomorrow...so ML at least gave me an option to ponder.


That makes $325 seem downright reasonable, doesn't it?

Alex


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## Haveuseen1? (Jun 21, 2017)

I ship globally everyday. If they are using UPS or FedEx that rate seems like it could be real. They have both moved to a volumetric price schedule vs the weight schedule of the past. So bulky items take up more room on the truck so you get charged more to compensate for it. The next thing would be they are shipping on their account. This is called prepay and add. I am sure they get a discount, but you are paying standard rates. Depending on the shipper the discount can be as much as 40%. In all fairness it seems like they are making money on the freight, but most places use that spread to pay for the boxes, packing materials, labels, pallets, etc….

I have no idea what the dimensions are for the bottles but it sounds like it could be bulky. If that is true if you can get it shipped via a freight line and have access to a commercial dock the freight would be way less. If you get a semi to go somewhere other than a commercial dock you end up paying a premium. One other inexpensive ship method for bulky items is the USPS. You just can’t be in a hurry.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

I use Sailor Plastics, and recommend them. Or Walmart for Mason jars.

Recently Mann Lake had a sale where if you bought a $100 gift certificate, you got $10 off your current purchase. Sounded like a deal. But "shipping" (via email) of that gift certificate cost twenty-something dollars! That is as part of a $100 plus order that was otherwise free!

Thanks, but no thanks.


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## Oh_Beehave (Apr 8, 2013)

Sailor Plastics order confirmation received *yesterday *at 12:31PM, shipment notification received *today* at 9:06AM. Yup, I found me a new bottle supplier (unless something is seriously goofed up when they get here).


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

bushpilot said:


> I use Sailor Plastics, and recommend them. Or Walmart for Mason jars.
> 
> Recently Mann Lake had a sale where if you bought a $100 gift certificate, you got $10 off your current purchase. Sounded like a deal. But "shipping" (via email) of that gift certificate cost twenty-something dollars! That is as part of a $100 plus order that was otherwise free!
> 
> Thanks, but no thanks.


Surely that can't be true... That would beat TicketMaster for absurd upcharges that provide no extra value.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I bulk bought boxes from an Amish outfit a number of years ago and the only thing I didn't really get enough of were bottom boards and inner covers... in fact, I bought no inner covers from the Amish. I have no clue what I was thinking, but... I digress.
So I went to order some (IC and BB and I want to put a few colonies on screened bottom boards to monitor mite falls after treatment) more, Mann Lake has been my go-to since pricing and dealing with a few suppliers over the years. They've been slower to ship BY DAYS (or a week) then they ever have before in the containers and other minor stuff I've order in the last year. But the prices seemed reasonable and I don't usually need bee stuff very fast, so I can wait. It used to be that I could order something from Mann Lake on Monday and it would be there by Thursday and sometimes even Wednesday. But now if I order Monday I kind of wonder if will even been there in two Fridays.

I actually placed an order for a handful of inner covers and a couple other queen rearing things (cages and some shipping bars that I want to use to make some banking frames). Man... ICs sure have gotten (even more) expensive! Then... OH shoot! I forgot BBs. So I go to look at BBs... holy price, Batman.
Let me check Dadant real quick. I did and was immediately on the phone with Mann Lake. Cancelled my order. In their defense, the customer service lady was friendly and helpful. And she followed through (my order hadn't even processed into their system yet, so she wrote herself a note and did it the next day).

On the stuff I needed to buy Dadant (they didn't have the shipping bars, so I ended up not ordering them)...
5x screened BBs
5x UNASSEMBLED BBs
1x j hook tool for my brother
100x jzbz queen cages
100x jzbz candy caps
8x notched inner covers
----------------------------------- $368.40 (including tax and 'free' shipping)

The same stuff from Mann Lake (but the regular BBs are assembled, not unassembled)
5x screened BBs
5x ASSEMBLED BBs
1x j hook tool for my brother
100x jzbz queen cages
100x jzbz candy caps
8x notched inner covers
----------------------------------- $466.06 (including tax and 'free' shipping)

I couldn't believe it. I mean, I'll have to zip a few screw into some bottom boards... and the overall quality of some of the woodenware might not be as on-par as I'm used to with Mann Lake (at least Mann Lake "of old"). But I just couldn't wrap my head around that much pricing difference... a hundred bucks!


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## Newbeek2021 (May 13, 2021)

Be careful with Dadant....the website will say they have it all so youll place your order & only a fraction of it will show up, when they say they have it all they mean across all locations...and if you call them for an eta on the rest of your order...good luck...
Took me over a month to get 5 deeps, 5 migratory tops, bottoms & inner covers. Over a month and 3 different shipments from different locations. 
Im assuming it had to do with raw material shortages but would be nice if they would tell you up front...
Just my experience


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Newbeek2021 said:


> Be careful with Dadant....the website will say they have it all so youll place your order & only a fraction of it will show up, when they say they have it all they mean across all locations...and if you call them for an eta on the rest of your order...good luck...
> Took me over a month to get 5 deeps, 5 migratory tops, bottoms & inner covers. Over a month and 3 different shipments from different locations.
> Im assuming it had to do with raw material shortages but would be nice if they would tell you up front...
> Just my experience


They've added a lot of warnings about stuff like that to their site. If I needed it "soon", I would be a little more worried about it. But right now this is all extra stuff. I don't even need it in the strict sense of the word. It would be nice to put some new bottom boards on before this winter on a few colonies. 
Thank you, though! I've only ever bought a smoker from Dadant that I recall.


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## Norcal Mtns (Mar 28, 2021)

I call the Dadant nearest me and ensure they have all I need before I order. After many orders I can say they are helpful, friendly and efficient. I put a note on the order that it is for their location and all goes well. But I have not ordered glass from them since I just pick it up whenever I am passing through town.


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## ankklackning (Dec 10, 2020)

I am not really happy with Mann Lake either.

When you go on their site they won't let you order mini-nucs (the styrofoam tiny boxes) unless you have a minimum order of 100. That's ridiculous. The price on them is already high. But they scalp people anyway.

When you go to buy bees, someone can't say hey you can't buy a package or nuc unless you buy 100 of them.

Its maddening how a lot of companies act now.
This is why people started buying foreign because of bs like this.

B-a-n-d-i-t-s...


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I think the Chinese manufacturers of the mini mating nucs have arbitrarily changed the ventilated bottoms to solid foam bottoms without changing the description on E-Bay or Alibaba. I ordered a few from 3 different vendors and they all came with solid removable bottoms. If you need the ventilated bottom, beware. 
I don't know if this has become a problem for ML or not.

Alex


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Adamantium said:


> Surely that can't be true... That would beat TicketMaster for absurd upcharges that provide no extra value.


Don't be silly. Nobody beats TicketMaster's thievery. G.O.A.T.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

Shipping containers has always been expensive. Maybe that's what UPS or FedEx is charging them now.


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

e-spice said:


> Shipping containers has always been expensive. Maybe that's what UPS or FedEx is charging them now.


Their cost has actually more than quadrupled over the past year. It used to cost ~$2,000 to send over a shipping container. Now it's more than $8,000, and $12,000-20,000 in some cases, depending on the situation.


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## arthurw (May 10, 2011)

1) Fillmore Container in Lancaster, PA. Great supplier. 2) If you love Mann Lake it turns out you can specify which warehouse they ship from. I live in PA and they were going to ship frame components to me from a warehouse in the midwest except that the warehouse was out of stock.After a bit I called to check on my "disappeared" order. I asked why they didn't ship to me from their PA warehouse, as it was close enough for me togo over and pick up the order. There was a moment of silence followed by some clicking. Then a small voice came on the line and said that my order was shipping that afternoon from the PA warehouse.If you specify the warehouse the pricing starts from there.


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## Peggy (Jul 15, 2021)

As Hawai'i residents, we are used to exorbitant shipping charges and lengthy delays. I order our jars from a local procurer so don't deal with that. But I will utter the word Amazon now, sorry. For years we have been ordering our ML boxes, frames and foundation from them. We order a lot. Since we are on Prime, we ordered when available and on prime. It included the shipping. In the past couple months, ML has discontinued Prime on all the things we order there. I went through the process of ordering to see what the shipping was before finalizing it. It almost doubled the product cost and we can't afford that. We now look at the other prime options available. The new ventilated bee suits from another company arrived yesterday and we are happy with them. We also are long time ML customers. I sure hope they rethink some of their new business model.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I call my local Dadant. But this year, I'm going back to easily acquired glass canning jars. Tired of plastics. And how are you supposed to soften crystalized honey in plastic honey jars?

And nothing ruins a good business like a Private Equity partner


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Gypsi said:


> And nothing ruins a good business like a Private Equity partner


To be fair, Brushy Mountain was bought by Hadley Capital, who claimed to be a "private equity" firm, but actually just brokered a loan from a bank to buy out the Forrests, who wanted to retire. This left the business paying all sorts of fees to Hadley, who wanted their "investment" to make them money, and also the bank, who held the actual loans for the value paid out. Hadley put none of their own money in. So the odds were against Brushy surviving very long without serious cost-cutting, and they had over-extended themselves by adding a PA warehouse. It also did not help that they put a completely uneducated and inexperienced manager in the CEO spot, and he was too naïve and inexperienced to realize that he was the designated fall guy. Hadley made sure to pay itself, but did not pay the bank loan, as there was not enough revenue being generated, and revenue would have had to increase to pay the fees and the bank loan. The bank called the note, and found that the tangible assets were nothing but some scattered inventory, an aging industrial building in a no-Starbucks town, filled with specialized equipment no one would want to buy, and some outdated computers. Somehow a business that thrived for decades under the leadership of a pair of schoolteachers with no business education, withered and died under the "professional services" provided by Hadley.

Rossman Apiaries was also quietly purchased by investors, leaving Betterbee as the only significant catalog house run by its owners. Dadant is run by family members, but actual ownership seems to rest mainly with the oldest family members, who have left the hands-on, day-to-day work to the younger generation and some hired hands.

The result is a slight vacuum, as shipping costs are seriously up recently, which is a boon to the smaller shops like Blue Sky, Carolina Bee Farm, and the many Mom and Pop "Garage Shops". Closer means cheaper. Wood is expensive and heavy, so "support your local bee supply dealer." They likely support your local club. That faint sound you hear is a thousand table saws screaming at midnight, making woodenware with a bit more care and a bit more artisanal craftsmanship by people like "Amish fellows", who are smart opportunists. This is how Brushy and Betterbee started. Its a cycle.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Jim, what you have described is the basic business model used by private equity firms. It takes a compliant board and/or a willing CEO/owner. 
A more pessimistic view of this process is the way the ones at the top get a large payout before the Co. collapses under the weight of fees, interest rates and poor management under the private equity installed leaders while the so called employee owners lose their pensions and later their jobs.

The pension funds are included as part of the value of the company in order to acquire a large enough loan to make money for the Private equity firm and to buy off the board of directors or the owners.

There are many variations of this process to be sure, but the goal is the same.

Alex


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

@Jim Fischer that is a fantastic post. I'm always curious about the Brushy Mountain collapse and that gives some good details. Thank you!


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I don't mean to paint all Private Equity Firms with the same broad brush as I am sure there are many times things worked out for everyone, still, there is this; How Private Equity Ruined a Beloved Grocery Chain

Alex


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## Heinlein (Aug 28, 2018)

I just use Ball mason jars for my honey since I already use them for my plum jam, bourbon fig jam, grape jam, et al. There's nothing magic about a "honey jar" to me.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I own a small business and I periodically get calls wanting to buy it. A. I don't want to sell, and B, I can just imagine who is calling.

But my cancer doc said plastics are just not good for food storage so Mason canning jars are my new go to.


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## Norcal Mtns (Mar 28, 2021)

Heinlein said:


> ...bourbon fig jam...


Oh my! Sounds magical to me.


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## J.ATKINS (Jun 5, 2011)

Mann Lake gives excellent customer service but their plastic bottle prices became unreasonable a few years ago and since then I have been a Sailor Plastics customer. They too have incredible customer service and the best prices I can find on 1 and 2 lb bottles. Mann Lake bottles are better quality but Sailor is good enough for a throw away container. 
I did have a terrible ordeal with Mann Lake and
the unassembled hive boxes I purchased. Most of the 50 boxes had two sides unusable. 1/4 to 3/8” too narrow. They made it right but it took months for me to finally have everything right.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

psm1212 said:


> For as long as I can remember, ML has always excluded honey containers from its ">$100 Free Shipping" policy. It has always made them an uneconomic option for glass ware and bottles for me. However, they will still ship woodenware and almost anything else for free if you purchase over $100 in merchandise. Just not containers. I think a lot of people use Sailor Plastics. I drive 8 hours round trip once a year with a trailer to get all of mine from Rossman Apiaries. Picked up two pallets last month. The shipping costs is insane on glassware.


Well not sure how long you can remember but for the past 5 years I have received free shipping on their 1 pound honey containers. Buying by the case I have bought 10 cases at a time and received free shipping everytime. Last time was June of this year.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

Groundhwg said:


> Well not sure how long you can remember but for the past 5 years I have received free shipping on their 1 pound honey containers. Buying by the case I have bought 10 cases at a time and received free shipping everytime. Last time was June of this year.


Yes, I think plastic jars that come in cases of 12 or 24 have qualified for free shipping as long as I remember. I don't think shipping on jars in bulk quantities, like 300 or so per box, has ever been free.


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## SWM (Nov 17, 2009)

If Mann Lake attends your State Beekeeping Association meetings as a vendor, that's the time to order bulk items. They will deliver to the meeting at no charge.


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