# My first go at making foundationless frames



## hipifreq (Sep 9, 2010)

So I've been slowly working out construction of my own frames from the plans I downloaded from this site. I'm planning on going foundationless, so I wanted to modify the design a little to provide more of an attachment point. So I went with 5/4 x 6 cedar boards, ripped to 19 x 1 1/16. I cut the ends as normal, but the bottom half I cut using a 45 degree bit on my router table. Here's the result:

No, the parts are not glued, nailed, or anything yet. These parts were just put together for the photo. I'll be building a jig for assembly.









Fig 1. Frame pieces all placed together









Fig 2. Close up of frame end

BTW - the side bars are made from 2x4's and bottom bar ripped from 1x6.


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## NorthernIllinoisPlumber (Aug 17, 2010)

I like the way they look. 

I am resigned to use popsickle sticks.


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## usaairforceeod (Jan 22, 2011)

Those look great. Let us know how they work :applause:


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## roughneck942003 (May 29, 2010)

Those look good. I just started the same thing today. But Im using the popsickle sticks as well. When using the sticks do you need them on the bottom and top of the frame? I thought it was just the top?


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## Will O'Brien (Feb 22, 2006)

I like making my own boxes, bottom board, cover etc. but I never grew interest in making my own frames because there is a little too much detail (work) to be done and the ones I purchase are rather cheap. Since you are making the frames, are you only planning to make a small amount or will you make a lot (say 100 or more) yourself? In other words is there a limit to how many you would make yourself versus buy and assemble?

By the way, your frames looks great.


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## hipifreq (Sep 9, 2010)

Thanks for the encouragement everyone! I've got about 100 frames worth of side bars cut, and half that of top bars so far. I've ordered two packages of bees for the Spring to put in all medium boxes, so I plan to make a little over 100 frames for the 5 boxes per hive. There's some variation, and I'll see how each holds up.

@roughneck942003: You'd only need the popsicle sticks on the top. The frame in my first picture is upside-down, because that gave a better view of the top bar.

@Will O'Brien: My materials cost is about 52 cents a frame with the wood I buy at the local big-box home improvement store. At the 67.5 cents I could get them shipped from Mann Lake, compared to all the labor I put into these, I don't think I'm making much money. I do spend a bunch of time setting up and testing each cut, so when I do make pieces I want to cut at least 100 frames worth to make the effort worth while. If my top bars work out well I may just buy the side bars in bulk and make the bottoms (they're _easy_) and custom tops myself.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Cedar is not strong wood. You might be better served making them out of pine. Sure be cheaper and frames are out of the weather so I see no advantage to cedar. I may be wrong. Why did yo chose cedar? And you can buy budget frames from western bee for about 54 cents apiece plus shipping. A lot of lost finger opportunities in making a hundred frames on a table saw. I just put together twenty five of them and they are really pretty good. Only one top bar was a little warped and I can straighten that if it's a problem.


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## hipifreq (Sep 9, 2010)

Vance G said:


> Cedar is not strong wood. You might be better served making them out of pine. Sure be cheaper and frames are out of the weather so I see no advantage to cedar. I may be wrong. Why did yo chose cedar? And you can buy budget frames from western bee for about 54 cents apiece plus shipping. A lot of lost finger opportunities in making a hundred frames on a table saw. I just put together twenty five of them and they are really pretty good. Only one top bar was a little warped and I can straighten that if it's a problem.


I chose cedar because it was the only wood that came in 5/4 where I went. It wasn't expensive at $4 for a 5/4x4x8 to make 15 tops. If Lowes had 5/4 in pine for less I'd go that route. As for strength, they're plenty strong at 1 inch thick, and the V-cut bottom adds further strength.

I'm not worried about loosing a finger. I've got years of time working with table saws and routers and have plenty of respect for their power to maim. For me it's about both owning the hive and having a reason to go work in the shop now and then. I'm certainly not saving money making them myself.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Hey what your doing is fine it's purty, it's yore frog you boil it any way you want. I am turning the wedges on my store boughts. I certainly like the looks of the V on yours according to the Bush man it is the best.


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## Eek-a-beek (Oct 9, 2010)

The smell of cedar taints the honey, are you sure you like it that way?


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## Lauren (Jun 10, 2010)

Those are gorgeous! I have just been glueing little triangles to the ready made top bars and they are downright embarrassing next to yours. 

t: Eek a beek, that is bad news for me about the cedar! I have a quilt box with cedar chips on my hive for temp, moisture control and noticed that my SHB disappeared the week I put it on. I was hoping to keep it on all year. does the cedar have to contact the honey to effect it?


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

From looking @ the photos the cedar looks like western cedar the kind they use for house siding its’ not the same as the red cedar that is used in a cedar chest. Western cedar doesn’t have that beautiful smell to it. Different tree. ☺ But I could be wrong.


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## Eek-a-beek (Oct 9, 2010)

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/Chem_Background/ExSumPdf/cedarwood_oil.pdf
http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1003031.html

@Lauren: No. Cedar outgases cedrol which is soluble in water and hence can be absorbed by honey. The good news is that it is approved as a food additive. The issue is a matter of taste. If you like it and will consume the honey yourself then there is no problem. If you intend to sell your honey then you need to understand the local market acceptance to cedrol flavored honey.

If SHB is sensitive to cedar then that would be interesting. Please continue posting your observations if you decide to keep working with cedar chips. I do not think bees are sensitive, at least I infer that from the popularity of cypress wood for hive boxes and the fact that cedar is in the cypress family. Cypress wood also contains a sesquiterpene that discourages insects. It bears watching however since cypress boxes and frames are eventually (or perhaps frantically) sealed with propolis varnish by the bees but they would have no defense against cedar chips if it bothers them.

@mac: Western cedar is milder and has its own unique chemical profile but it is discussed along with the other cedars in the government document above.


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## hipifreq (Sep 9, 2010)

Eek-a-beek said:


> The smell of cedar taints the honey, are you sure you like it that way?


Hmmm... hadn't heard that it taints the honey, but certainly something to consider, as the cedar I used is pretty aromatic when cut. Thankfully I've got a couple months to off-gas before putting bees in there.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Aromatic cedar might taint it a little but his red cedar won't hurt anything. I've cut up tons of red cedar for exterior house trim and siding, it has very little cedar aroma. I certainly wouldn't use the closet liner cedar.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Lauren said:


> ... that is bad news for me about the cedar! ...does the cedar have to contact the honey to effect it?


I don't think you have any worries. Back when the Earth was young and everything on it was organic, even before there was such a thing as a World 'rassling' Federation, this strong man named Sampson kilt a lion with his bare hands. Sometime later as the story goes, old Sampson went back and a swarm of bees had taken up residence inside the dried out body caviety of that dead lion. Sampson robbed that bee colony and no mention was made about the honey from inside the dead lion tasting or smelling like rotten lion meat. 

So I don't think your honey will either taste nor smell like cedar.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Can't say I've made frames out of cedar but I've made boxes out of it and they worked fine and everything tasted fine. I wouldn't be concerned about using cedar for frames.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

fish_stix said:


> Aromatic cedar might taint it a little but his red cedar won't hurt anything. I've cut up tons of red cedar for exterior house trim and siding, it has very little cedar aroma. I certainly wouldn't use the closet liner cedar.


O.K. I thought red cedar was the kind ya use for a cedar closet cause its red and western cedar was the stuff for siding. I also have cut a lot of siding I guess I was calling it the wrong thing. Live and learn.


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## Mike Tuggle (Jun 20, 2010)

Wow, beautifull woodwork but why not simply take a top bar from, for example, Brushy Mountain Bee Farm (at 42 cents a bar or 95 cents for a full frame) and tack and glue a narrow piece of cove moulding (inverted) to it? It ends up looking much like yours.

Mike


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Eastern red cedar, if I recollect, is the wood in every kindergarten kids' No.2 (graphite) lead pencil. 

I’ve seen enough school kids gnaw on lead pencils, and I bet you have too, that I would suspect if anything, we humans kind of enjoy the flavor of cedar. Be happy!


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## hipifreq (Sep 9, 2010)

@Mike Tuggle: If this was about getting the cheapest frames, then sure I would just buy them. But it's not.

It's about me and the wood with some sharp objects turning at a few thousand RPM. It's about measuring, and setting up. About sitting down with my note/sketchbook to draw and calculate. It's about running my hands over the wood to select just the right board. It's about talking to my fellow beekeepers about improving designs, and displaying the results of my own hard work. It's about letting the bees take hold in boxes that I built for them, helping them grow big and strong, and hoping that some day I can share in their bounty of honey.

In short, I'm paying extra for the enjoyment of making my own equipment.


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## Montana Bee (Feb 1, 2011)

FIRST GO,

Looks good. I suggest bringing the angle to a sharp point. You will give the bees more area to attach comb and they might draw straighter comb. I got this idea from James Zitting at Beelanding.com Im starting my first top bar hive this spring and I dipped the sharp edge of the top bar in bees wax hoping it will encourage the bees to build straight comb. Good Luck.

John
Montana


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I know some book or another said to wax them... but my experience is that waxing them is not a good plan. I waxed a lot of them. Mainly the wax doesn't get attached as well as the bees would attach it. Sometimes it gets hot and falls off. It is not necessary and in my experience has no plus side to it.


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## Whitetail (Feb 3, 2011)

Not trying to crash the party guys, but what is the draw to foundationless frames? Yes, I'm a shameless plasticell user. The stuff is durable, easy to insert, and would take some G force to make it warp. My only experience with foundationless frames is holding the frame horizontally and trying to search for eggs in a comb that decided to hang vertically. No criticism, just curious. To each their own.


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## hipifreq (Sep 9, 2010)

I'm attracted to it for several reasons, some more important than others.

The first seems a bit silly because I'm taking the time to build my own equipment, but it seems simpler to go without foundation.

Secondly, I'd like to watch the bees build the comb as they go. It's really a cool process.

There's also the fact that so much foundation wax comes from who-knows-where, and often contains contaminated wax. I don't want to put any "hard chemicals" (e.g. fumagillin, coumaphus, fluvalinate) into my hive. Should there be low levels of those chemicals I'd be helping increase resistance to it in the mites.

I'd like to have the option of cut comb, so even if I did use foundation it would likely be unwired wax in the supers. Foundationless would let me have virgin comb in every cut-comb block I produce.

I'm sure others can add to the list.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

It is also less expensive.


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

> I don't think you have any worries. Back when the Earth was young and everything on it was organic, even before there was such a thing as a World 'rassling' Federation, this strong man named Sampson kilt a lion with his bare hands. Sometime later as the story goes, old Sampson went back and a swarm of bees had taken up residence inside the dried out body caviety of that dead lion. Sampson robbed that bee colony and no mention was made about the honey from inside the dead lion tasting or smelling like rotten lion meat.


 Thats because the lion wasn't made of cedar :doh: and your frames look very nice


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## hipifreq (Sep 9, 2010)

Montana Bee said:


> Looks good. I suggest bringing the angle to a sharp point. You will give the bees more area to attach comb and they might draw straighter comb. I got this idea from James Zitting at Beelanding.com Im starting my first top bar hive this spring and I dipped the sharp edge of the top bar in bees wax hoping it will encourage the bees to build straight comb. Good Luck.


Funny, I had seen sharp-edged bars like this, but when the 45 degree bit I was using on my router didn't quite reach enough I thought that perhaps the little bit on the bottom would give a bit more stability. Of course, these are 4-sided frames so I'm not as worried about lateral stability as in a top bar hive that only has the one attachment side.

I'm going with M Bush's recommendations to not put wax on the frames at all. I can see how painting the wax on would produce a less-than-stellar bond. Dipping the tips in hot wax would probably help, especially if you keep it in the wax for 5-10 seconds to heat the wood and allow the wax to be absorbed.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Funny, I had seen sharp-edged bars like this, but when the 45 degree bit I was using on my router didn't quite reach enough I thought that perhaps the little bit on the bottom would give a bit more stability.

Mine always end up with 1/8 to 1/16" of flat spot on the bottom of the bevel. It works fine that way.

>Not trying to crash the party guys, but what is the draw to foundationless frames? 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm#naturalsize
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

Mostly it guarantees clean uncontaminated wax, eliminates the argument on cell size, and in my experience, resolves my Varroa issues.


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## Duck1968 (Jun 13, 2009)

I made my own foundationless frames last year. The bees did ok with them till they got within 2 inches of the end bars then they curved the comb off the top bar.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Very nice - just about like these that I made last year -










except my comb guides are ripped to a sharp edge. It's a pretty good design - the triangular comb guide does a good job of stiffening the top bar.

However, it takes longer for the comb to be firmly attached to the triangular guide than to a plain flat (paint stick - popsickle stick) comb guide, because with the flat guide they will build full depth cells up the sides of the stick right away. With the trinagle they just kind of hang it from the bottom edge until they really need the space and then they fill in above it with shallow cells.

It works, and looks great though.


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## hipifreq (Sep 9, 2010)

Duck1968 said:


> I made my own foundationless frames last year. The bees did ok with them till they got within 2 inches of the end bars then they curved the comb off the top bar.
> 
> I've been seeing the same thing in my hives too. It can get messy if I let them go long enough to start crossing frames. When I see it I've been gently pressing the comb straight again. They seem to fix it up promptly, and build everything straight from there on out.
> 
> The frames themselves have done really well. The bees haven't attached the brood comb to the bottom or sides, but the comb's strong enough that I haven't had any break, even without wire. They do attach the honey frames all the way around though, which makes them extra strong. I haven't spun any frames, and won't this year. It's been a tough year in the Pacific Northwest, and I only managed to get 3 frames of honey out of the 2 hives.


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## K Wieland (Sep 15, 2011)

Both of you, the frames look great. I am thinking of making some foundationless frames just like you did over the winter as a project with my son. Would you care to share the dimensions or plans that you used? Using 5/4 wood was a good idea. If you scribble them down, take a picture and send them I can make them into drawings and post them back on here.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Your top bars are very nice indeed. I planned on doing that also but only had standard 1x pine so I went with a kerf down the center of each top bar which i insert a ripped 1/16" strip into as a guide. I make all my top bars 400 at a time, end bars (deeps) 400 (mediums) 400 and bottoms 400 - 600 at a time. Theres usually 20 - 30 extra of each to replace faulty bars in the finished products. I started foundationless and don't plan on using foundation any time soon


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## DBF (Jul 17, 2011)

I have a question. If you are going to all that extra work to get the standerd size cell, Why woulden't you want to go to 7/8" top bar and 1 1/4" spacing as well (that is the natural spacing)? and, yes you have a good looking frame!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why woulden't you want to go to 7/8" top bar and 1 1/4" 

That would be my only motivation for making my own...


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## K Wieland (Sep 15, 2011)

That's why I was hoping for some drawings/schematics. I could then modify them to be narrow frame.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Take the standard dimensions and subtract 1/16 of an inch on each side of every piece except maybe the bottom bar.


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## K Wieland (Sep 15, 2011)

Do you have a link to the "standard" dimensions? I've been looking all over without much luck.


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## ealldredge (May 14, 2008)

standard frame dimensions....

http://www.beesource.com/files/dadantfr.pdf


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## K Wieland (Sep 15, 2011)

Thanks, don't know how I missed that one!


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Here's the link for the frame plans posted on this site:

http://www.beesource.com/files/dadantfr.pdf

If you want to go with 1 1/4" end bars and you want to preserve the bee space towards the bottom of the bars I would suggest making the bottom bars 1/2" wide instead of 3/4" wide. The cuts made to the sides of the bottom part of the end bars in the plans only leave the minimum 1/4" bee space, put that together with a 3/4" dado and you'll see why i use a thinner bottom bar. The dado on the top of the end bar can also be (doesn't have to be) a smaller 3/4". Since I don't use 3/8" thick stock for the end bars I had to change the measurement in figure 3 from a 3/8" dado to a 3/4" dado to accommodate the thicker stock. You won't need the kerf on the bottom bar but you will need to keep the kerf in the top bar so you can insert a guide later unless you are going with the top bar that is beveled on the bottom. You can also go with a 7/8" wide top bar.

Next year I'll do my first splits and I'll start the splits in a 5 frame nuc with the narrower frames, when I transfer them into a deep I'll keep 6 of the narrower frames in center of each brood nest with two thicker ones on each side (keeping a 10 frame hive).

Lastly, I don't remember if this was discussed in this thread but I bought about $100 of #2 pine and was able to make a little over 200 frames out of it, which is approximately .50 cents a frame excluding the price of nails and glue. Seems like a far cry from the .95 cents a frame that was stated... somewhere. lol

Anyway, food for thought.


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## K Wieland (Sep 15, 2011)

That brings up an interesting question. Where is the bee space most important? Is there any reason to have bee space (if you're doing foundationless frames) around the edges of the frames - like between the frames and the super? You mentioned the taper of the end bars toward the bottom on the Dadant frame we were discussing. Why have bee space there instead of the full length of the end bar? Sorry for the many questions, just want to understand. As you can tell, I'm green still!


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

The bees will often eventually completely fill the frames with comb - in which case they need to be able to get around the frames. Besides which if you violate bee space between the super and the end bars they will either fill the space with comb or propolis - either way it is going to make working your hives a lot more difficult.

I don't have any drawings of my frames, but it's made to be as simple as possible. The top bar is 19"x1"x3/8" - the side bars are 6 1/4"x1 3/8" x 3/8" - the bottom bar is 3/4x3/4x17 3/4 - and the comb guide is 17" long and 2 of them are ripped out of 3/4x3/4 stock.

I get most of my material for free, and have a pretty well equipped shop, and experience in setting up to produce large volumes of parts. Even then it's pretty iffy as to if it makes $ense to make your own frames - unless you have time on your hands. If you want it to work out at all, plan to make several hundred at a time.

Unless you just want to make your own stuff, then don't worry about what it costs.


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## K Wieland (Sep 15, 2011)

Thanks for the answers. I don't think I'll make frames anytime soon - I don't have the expertise or equipment necessary (unfortunately!). I mostly want to understand the issues.

The spacing from frame to frame is still not clear to me. Is that determined by the end bars, since they are the widest part?

Is there some advantage to having a more open end bar and using a screw or something as a spacer like Michael Bush suggests?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Yes, the spacing on standard frames is determined by the end bars. Using a screw or something like that to establish spacing would mostly make frames simpler to make - it might also encourage better/quicker attachment of the comb to the sides of the frame - because of better access around the ends. I don't know about that, but it makes sense. 

In some cases bee keepers have used simple frames that are the same width all around and then just manually space them in the hive. I've also seen examples of very simple rectangular frames that use nails instead of ears to hang the frames in the hive body - which actually might have an advantage of giving small hive beetles fewer spots to hide out in - just speculation.


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## K Wieland (Sep 15, 2011)

David - that is what I was thinking, namely something simple with the same width all the way around. I think the top bar must have many factors of safety since the same top bar is used for shallow, medium, and deep frames. If it was just the load of the honey (heaviest?) then the top bar should be quite a bit different for shallows/medium than the deeps. If I'm not nailing anything into them, then I don't need the extra bulk either. I was thinking of making simple bars like you said, but changing the joints to use dowel joints. Any thoughts on that?

Along the same lines, is there any advantage to changing the top bar to make it thinner? If you could increase the area between top, bottom, and end bars, wouldn't that give you more honey/brood per frame?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Well sure, there are all kinds of different design possibilities, but the truth is the standard frames are a pretty good compromise between utility, strength, brood area, and expense. If you are going to extract honey, and you plan to keep them for a long time (decades maybe) it's probably going to be hard to beat standard frames.

If you want the ultimate in brood area and simplicity, then just use top bars - they hold a good bit more brood.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Along the same lines, is there any advantage to changing the top bar to make it thinner? If you could increase the area between top, bottom, and end bars, wouldn't that give you more honey/brood per frame? 

If you don't mind more burr between the boxes...

“…that very practical Canadian bee-keeper, J.B. Hall, showed me his thick top-bars, and told me that they prevented the building up of so much burr-comb between the top-bars and the sections…and I am very glad that at the present day it can be dispensed with by having top-bars 1-1/8 inch wide and 7/8 inch thick, with a space of 1/4 inch between top-bar and section. Not that there is an entire absence of burr-combs, but near enough to it so that one can get along much more comfortably than with the slat honey-board. At any rate there is no longer the killing of bees that there was every day the dauby honey-board was replaced.”--C.C. Miller, Fifty Years Among the Bees.
“Q. Do you believe that a half-inch thick brood-frame top-bar will tend to prevent the bees building burr-comb on such frames, as well as the three-quarter inch top-bar? Which kind do you use? 
A. I do not believe that the one-half inch will prevent burr-combs quite as well as the three-quarter. Mine are seven-eighths.”--C.C. Miller, A Thousand Answers to Beekeeping Questions


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## K Wieland (Sep 15, 2011)

I considered top bar only, but it seems that they don't really move around that well. After reading Michael Bush's website and others, it seems one method of preventing swarming is to manipulate the brood. Which doesn't seem very easy to do with top bar frames. Can anyone comment on this?

Michael, I was thinking of leaving 3/4" on the ends and transitioning to 1/2" in the middle. Thus the frame to frame (top to bottom) distance would still keep the beespace. David mentions a top bar that is 19"x1"x3/8". Imagine the part on the inside of the end bars having a cross section of 1"x1/4" instead of 1"x3/8". Another way is by placing a spacer under each end of the frame to preserve that beespace.

However, I agree with David that it probably isn't worth messing with redesigning the top bar. 

At our local meeting tonight people were discussing the rising problem of beetles. Evidently they get in the hive and then the larva eat through the comb ruining it. Literally have honey running out of the hive. They can hide in the cutouts in the frames. One solution suggested was to pack these areas full of wax! Making my our foundationless frames would remove that extra hiding space.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Perfect bee space between the boxes is nice, but will not, in itself, prevent burr between the boxes. Only thick top bars (at least 7/8") and proper beespace together can do that. But you need to decide if it matters to you. I have a lot of plastic PF120s and (as in all plastic frames) it has very thin top bars. They get burred solid between the boxes, but that also gives you a lot more honey on a frame and more brood on a frame and a better ladder between the boxes so the hive communicates more. I decided I don't mind.


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## K Wieland (Sep 15, 2011)

David, Did you glue and nail, just nail, or something else to attach the pieces together? It looked just like glue, but I wasn't sure - the nails are pretty small.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

K Wieland said:


> David, Did you glued and nail, just nail, or something else to attach the pieces together? It looked just like glue, but I wasn't sure - the nails are pretty small.


Actually I don't think the frame in that picture is assembled - it's just kind of sitting there. However I use glue and mechanical fasteners both. I use a pneumatic narrow crown stapler wherever I can, and a pin nailer that drives down to 3/8" nails in other places. The nails and staples mostly just hold it together until the glue dries.


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## K Wieland (Sep 15, 2011)

I'm thinking the glue would be strong enough as long as it is held in place while it dried.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

We use Western Red Cedar for all of our hive bodies and bars and I've never noticed a "cedar" taste. 

Good looking frames!

Best,
Matt


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Here is the detail of top bars I made which have integral starter strip. Sidebars are made 1 1/4 wide.
Top and bottom bars are 15/16" wide. Looking forward to seeing what the bees will make of it! Not sure if this will link to my photobucket but here is a try.

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu276/Tijean_photo/starterstrip.jpg


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## K Wieland (Sep 15, 2011)

Thanks crofter. The image works fine and the top bar looks really nice. What wood are you using? It looks almost like oak in the picture. You'll have to let us know how the bees like the starter strip. It looks like a nice profile.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

White pine. The dado cuts that leave the standing strip was done with a stack of 6 regular cheapo carbide blades. They cut much easier and cleaner than my regular dado stack though leaves a bit rough finish; just right for glue joints, lol! Also makes the right width to make side bar recesses in top bar.


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## K Wieland (Sep 15, 2011)

Quick question. I am drawing up a foundationless narrow frame, as per the suggestions in this thread. The standard frame pdf linked to earlier in this thread shows the ends of the top bar, the part that extend beyond the sidebars and rests on the box, as being 1/2" thick (figure 4). However, it doesn't look like 1/2" on the diagram and earlier in the thread someone mentioned 3/8". Also, the recessed cut on the sidebar is 7/16" where the pieces fit together. I tend to think the 3/8" is correct. Anybody? Does it matter?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I make mine 3/8 - but that is only "right" if it gives good bee space with the boxes that you use.

Since you are still in the planning stage, be sure and consider what Michael Bush mentioned earlier - proper bee space and thick top/bottom bars help to discourage burr comb between frames. But the opposite is also true, and esp if you are all mediums you might want to consider thin top and bottom bars on brood frames so that it is easier for your bees to move between boxes in the winter. Just a thought.

BTW, I extracted honey from my home made foundationless frames this past season - no problemo. Zero. Matter of fact the few blow outs that I did have were almost exclusively wax foundation. Go figure.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The depth on the ends of the top bars sometimes tapers from 1/2" to 3/8". I have never tapered them, myself. I just make them 3/8".

>Since you are still in the planning stage, be sure and consider what Michael Bush mentioned earlier - proper bee space and thick top/bottom bars help to discourage burr comb between frames. But the opposite is also true, and esp if you are all mediums you might want to consider thin top and bottom bars on brood frames so that it is easier for your bees to move between boxes in the winter. 

I agree on both counts. If burr between boxes is an issue to you, then make the thick top bars. I prefer thin top bars because it promotes some burr which makes better communication between boxes and it means much more comb per box. The bees will do fine either way, but you need to know what to expect for what you are doing.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The depth on the ends of the top bars sometimes tapers from 1/2" to 3/8". I have never tapered them, myself. I just make them 3/8".

>Since you are still in the planning stage, be sure and consider what Michael Bush mentioned earlier - proper bee space and thick top/bottom bars help to discourage burr comb between frames. But the opposite is also true, and esp if you are all mediums you might want to consider thin top and bottom bars on brood frames so that it is easier for your bees to move between boxes in the winter. 

I agree on both counts. If burr between boxes is an issue to you, then make the thick top bars. I prefer thin top bars because it promotes some burr which makes better communication between boxes and it means much more comb per box. The bees will do fine either way, but you need to know what to expect for what you are doing.


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## K Wieland (Sep 15, 2011)

I'm trying to visualize the cross section of the top bar. Please let me know which one you would suggest. The scale is inches, and I made the base 1" just for convenience - I'd probably make it 7/8" or 3/4". Sorry the image is so small. It seems like the green or brown are the popular choices.


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