# Is CCD a hoax?



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/11/tech/main2458519.shtml

cbs had an online video that I'll post if I can find it
in it they interviewed Dave Hackenberg who I believe is the mystery beekeeper you mentioned
I think the real worry is not the immediate shortage of bees but the fact that these big migratory outfits seem to be getting hit
these guy's don't have huge profit margins and something like this could put many of them out of business
then we'd have a real problem
by the way, no CCD at my house

Dave


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## Sarge (Jun 26, 2006)

One problem is the nature of those involved in the business. There are few businesses that share the basic premise of beekeeping. Beeks harvest the product from what is basically a wild creature. AND, the business is filled with small operators who see it more as a hobby than a business.
A small keeper loses a hive. Say 1 out of 2. That is a very common happening and not likely to draw more than a feeling of sadness from the beek involved.
But a commercial keeper who loses half his hives is devastated. His business and lifestyle is indangered. He, unlike the hobbiest, screams bloody murder for help.
I made my living for some 30 years as a professional trapper. I know first hand how the small hobbiest will accept things that hurt me big time.
I'm sure one reason many CCD victims are keeping quiet is to avoid letting their contractees and debtors know how bad off they are. If your struggeling to keep afloat, you don't want them to lose faith and pull in the life rope.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

> What school, university, or science lab, what organization or working group has taken a hive struck by CCD and chemically studied the honey, hive or brood left over. Has anyone investigated the queen? Dissected a bee from a CCD stuck colony? If so, where is the white paper, or at least preliminary study?


http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/ColonyCollapseDisorder.html


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## nursebee (Sep 29, 2003)

Soo, you raise some interesting points. There are people that have lost hives, not my job to introduce you. Just keep paying attention, go to some bee meetings, and meet some beeks.

They are studying "it", do not know where the research is. Check out the links provided. Search this site.

As far as I know Mr CNN and Mr Fox do not keep bees. You've come to the right place to start. Popular news is glossy and superficial.

On the other hand, I heard almond pollination was quite sufficient???


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*Even a listen to Coast-to-Coast...*

would have given you a interview with Mr. D. Hackenburg. The reason that anyone suffering heavy losses may not want to go down on the record is that if you losses are total, there is no one in their right mind who would want that equipment, even at a discount. I find myself suspect of all the equipment for sale now and would not buy a comb again for love, nor money. Were i in that spot i would not want anyone to know and i would have a few months of sleepless nights. 

I have been ardent in my anti-money from taxes but even here i have soften my view, a good honeybee toxicology lab well equiped and well personed should be paid for by the taxes. The industry and the entire beekeeping community needs to be able to spot the nature of new problems faster than is currently able to do.

I, at this point, am convinced that CCD is something that does not seem real until you are in the middle of it and i for one have no clue as to what this is. Like most of you i am hoping i am passed over by whatever CCD is. ABJ has some photos and while all of this could be hype, the amount of people who would have to sign on to the conspiracy rules out a conspiracy. If one were convinced that this was a hoax they would be in a great possition to pick up some used equipment...i think that idea at this point hits the gut and lets one know that some mysteries are not worth the risk of testing. I have yet to see anyone in the, "wanted to buy," section request CCD equipment. There may be more faith in this problems existence than first meets the eye.

Chrissy Shaw


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## Soocom1 (Jun 17, 2007)

In response to the various posts on this thread: 

First: To all who posted in response to my initial series of questions thank you! You have been able to thoroughly prove to me that something “what ever it is” is in fact occurring. Now, unlike most of what I first read, the information left here has helped in the way of hard information rather than soft information as I had posted it yesterday. 

Secondly: I think this also helps point out the sever lack of understanding that the media at large has over this and other issues. Thus the hype we here, along with the media’s tendency to ‘embellish’ stories for political reasons have taught me to be very weary of anything that is spewed out of the propaganda machine called the American Press. 
The rather inane movement of the media has in the past had a history of telling stories for the purpose of agendas rather than actual reporting of news; Thus my suspicion. 

Third: Of the given information, I still have lingering questions as to why the raiders of hives seem to leave the remaining honey alone, and why is it that the queens are still there. If the worker bees are in fact suffering from a chemical problem as suggested in the paper I read (provided in the link from George Fergusson), then true legislative action should and must take place. This raises the question of chemical issues. Are chemicals causing the hive destruction, or are chemicals the bees giving off in the honey and other related products chasing away the raiders, and we are wholly un-sensing to them? Thus, it also raises the honey supply safety in our food chain. With out giving in to conspiracy theories, one does have to question the reason why these things have been happening. Given the recent situation of pet food poisonings, toothpaste poisoning, et all. 

Forth: As stated above, I find the federal governments response in this a lacking at least to the point that the president, and most members of congress speak nothing of it. Most people who one would think should be speaking of this are not, either through lack of interest or lack of understanding. 

Fifth: Given the above statements of proportion, one can see that if an apiarist has only 4 colonies and looses one, oh well. But if an apiarist has 400 colonies and looses 100, that’s another story. In addition to this, the various stories of sun spots, magnetic field fluctuation, and other such fanciful explanations fall severely short on credibility and such conversation should be relegated to the Sci. Fi channel. The problem arises in that such explanations are what make headlines. 

Further comments are very welcome.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

soocalm1

Yes there is really CCD. THere are alot of other beekeepers who disagree with me, but I believe the cause to be the insceticide neonictineoid imiadcloprid(sp) . If you read the instrucktions of the similar product used to control termites it states it will not kill colony immediately but will cause social disorentation and colony will parish is a short period of time. If you do some research on here it will cauce a weakoned immune system(leading to fungus infections which dont normally occur in bees), socail disorentation(flying off and not returniing) much like a person with alzheimers. There were many dead bees in a lake in Florida(person who told me was a fisherman who had seen them tow weeks before then read about CCD and asked me why there was a 20 x 40 ft. area of dead bees floating on the lake. ALthough I cant prove it I suspect they became confused and went bezerk. Other post on here (one beekeeper lost 10 of 20 colonies and they had acted unnatural, swarming a neighbors house along with swarming 2 feet above the road. They just disappeared! I have been affected and I can say WITHOUT A DOUBT it is not related to cell phones, mites, or pollen shortage/nutrition! Bees in alot of differant areas of US with differant weather condidtions were affected and many were lost during a good honey flow with many frames of healthy brood!


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I do believe that CCD has taken the blame for alot of colonies that have suffered at the hands of inept and lazy beekeepers.

Yeah I believe that CCD exists... I also believe that alot of losses being blamed on CCD have nothing to do with CCD.

For example the guy who was the former beekeeper to the blueberry farm I pollinated this year. Gave them a song and dance about the "Disappearing Disease" and CCD. Indiana isn't even listed as a state with CCD.

Of the 11 hives he did drop off I didn't see any bees coming out of the entrances on 4 of them. 

I just think there are alot of people using CCD as an excuse for poor management or normal winter deaths.

I'm not referring to Rick (suttonbeeman) above but to alot of smaller hobbiests that wanna blame something besides themselves.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

Bunk. 
But if it generates a few bucks for some research I suppose we'll all be obligated to parrot the $75B figure.





> June 29 (Bloomberg) -- A mysterious disorder that has killed millions of bees could cause $75 billion in economic losses in the U.S., Agriculture Secretary Mike Johanns said.
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a4S9NBx2FobI&refer=us


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## Church (May 31, 2007)

*maybe not one cause but bad timing.*

Soocom1:

UCDavis has a very good handle on some potential reasons as do some of the other USDA and Universities that have bee research.

Clearly from the data Ive read there was CCD..........it is my personal belief and that of a few others that the abbarent weather conditions contributed to irregular pollen resources.

I completely discount varroa and biological pathogens since the data does not suggest contagion......the reports of sick bees may be the resultant cause of malnutrition or chemicals that have in general weakened the bees, some suggesting the new pesticides cause mild brain damage and short term memory loss in bees preventing them from returning to the hive. Many of the newly and widely used pesticides are neurotoxins and can cause this.

In my personal view, the strange weather patterns caused a general lack of either pollen or nectar..........and resulted in the bees starving.

I would also strongly consider due to the lack of data suggesting any one pathogen that a chemical toxicity could be to blame.

I would also suggest that even with feeding supplements, the use of certain protein sources to substitute pollen are grossly misused and not appropriate for bees, ie. soy flour. There are other protein sources that are much safer and the data suggests that soy reduces colony vigor, see UCDAVIS articles published this last month.

A condition like CCD need not have one cause, it could be a combination of stressors that caused a general collapse......isolating those stressors and hopefully finding some management skills to prevent it may be a good start in the right direction.

A little off topic but to a point: all weather reports for 2006-7 said it would be a mild winter, and a possible el nino effect in California; they were dead wrong........the worst cold freeze on record, and severe drought, preceeded by record heat waves that summer. 

I predicted it would be the worst freeze on record 2006-7 only by my observations: In August and September, tree squirrels were eating all my olives in some frantic fashion I've never seen before.......they normally will not even touch them. My trees were wiped out, they were even eating the bark. For whatever reason they were eating everything and anything preparing for a bitter winter........how they knew it was coming I do not know but their actions clearly showed me it was going to be a BAD one, and it was.

Similar weather extremes are still being seen this year, ie droughts in the south east, and flooding in texas. 

Call it global warming, a 100 year cycle of weather patterns, or just a fluke, we had some outrageous weather.........bees are are probably the least resiliant to such weather changes.

I doubt there will be a smoking gun..........so the best thing to prevent such cases again is prepare for famine, and help the bees when they need it.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

hoax??? no. 

slow news day??? yes.

my own FEELING is that the ccd thingee is much like The Perfect Storm... a combination of factors that yields a much larger force than most might think possible...


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

If it is a hoax, the conspiracy is vast and extensive.

I got an e-mail yesterday from a 5th-generation beekeeper 
who had 600 hives, and lost half to "classic CCD symptoms".

He split the survivors this spring, and now he is in the middle 
of an exceptionally good clover flow in the plains states, but 
populations are dwindling again.

If it a hoax, this guy, who has never met me, is working overtime
to convince others that he is in need of any/all information about
CCD and the phone numbers and e-mail addresses of the
people working on CCD.

So I don't think it is a hoax at all.


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## simplyhoney (Sep 14, 2004)

*hoax my butt*

thanks Jim,

You might also want to look at the experiment with Dave Hackenburgs bees. Preliminary rumors have it that irratiating equipment may help, which would suggest a biological element. Perhaps not the only cause but certainly one of them...........if this holds water.

I would like to extent an open invatation to come visit and see some really unexplainable things in my apiary.

BE

good article http://www.thehandstand.org/archive/july2007/articles/bees.htm


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Jim Fischer said:


> If it is a hoax, the conspiracy is vast and extensive.
> 
> I got an e-mail yesterday from a 5th-generation beekeeper
> who had 600 hives, and lost half to "classic CCD symptoms".
> ...


This guy split without sterilizing his equipment? And now he has it again? Sure does point to a biological agent, doesn't it? 

I don't know, it seems to hit the ones that move hives around the country, maybe the stress of moving puts them over the top, whereas they might be ok if not moved.

I've never had it, so I don't know enough about it to make any suggestions as to whether it is a hoax, but I highly doubt it is.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

What a thread. Everyone chipping in with what they "feel" is in existence or what is causing it. Don't you guys ever read or use the internet? Every supposition voiced here has been thought of. Go to Bee-l and research Jerry Bromeshenks contributions on the subject. Also the MAAREC site listed. I was there with the first research team in FL in Jan 07. I spent days with Dave Hackenberg. He'd probably deck you if you suggested he didn't have CCD or was a lazy or inept beekeeper. He's had a lifetime at it.
I wrote about this in American Bee Journal in Jan. I think it came out in Mar. or Apr. Since no-one knows any more now, the article is still current. 

Dave made up 400 splits in late summer. "Good four-framers." He moved them from Pa to Fl and dropped them to build up. He came back in a month to find half dead and the rest dying. I saw his deadouts and saw the unmolested boxes stood on end and no robbing. Eventually robbing did occur but it took awhile. 

Dickm


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I thought that was what Beesource was, a spot to voice our oppinions, thoughts, ideas.........maybe we shouldn't post anything if we don't have concrete proof.........


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Give me a break Dick. Dave has "had a lifetime of it". Working with the researchers is one thing. Dave dang near has a fulltime publicist and P.R. person..telling the poor old Hackenburg story(or so it seems). He's taken every opportunity to market not only his problems, but his business and story along the way. Don't give me this "poor ol" Dave, has had a lifetime of crap. He's brought much more unto himself many times over, versus the many other beekeepers who have worked just as hard behind the scenes. 

I also would like to comment that others in the past have been slapped on the wrist for suggesting or eluding to violence on this site.

Yes Dick...Dave was the good commercial pollinator. Never stressed his bees, always made sure his bees had a diverse diet exceeding the levels required for healthy bees, never put off-label chemicals in his hive, always practiced comb rotation, and did everything else just perfect. Sure....just like all the others.....in Fantasy land!

So nobody can make suggestions, without referencing Bee-L or reading Jerry's comments. So tell me Dick, what exactly is CCD. No wishy washy crap. Since conversation and suggestions and debate are all but over with what you suggest...tell me, Tell me what is CCD! Until someone can answer that question, how about doing a little less chest pounding and bringing up the fact...for the umpteenth time, the fact that you were in a meeting, talked to Dave, or wrote an article. That ivory tower you once made a comment about in regards to some things I said...must have a new resident.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

> Everyone chipping in with what they "feel" is in existence or what is causing it.

No.... not me. I feel I know what not to do, or what to do.



> Go to Bee-l and research Jerry Bromeshenks contributions on the subject. Also the MAAREC site listed. I was there with the first research team in FL in Jan 07. I spent days with Dave Hackenberg.

Well thats what not to do. 

>Dave made up 400 splits in late summer. "Good four-framers." 

ah... Lets look it that statment for a moment.

I made up four framers in the first week in June this year and am worry I got to late of a start.Just last week I cycle in honey to the out side so I would be ready for pollen feeding soon(july). 
Or maybe I should wait a MONTH. LOL 

>He moved them from Pa to Fl and dropped them 

ah... here we go again

> He came back in a month 

ah.... this is getting old.


And some here wonder.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Peggjam wrote,

maybe we shouldn't post anything if we don't have concrete proof........:

Ah.... but we don't want to discriminate agaist the CCD camp.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I think I owe you all an apology. I went off because I consider this a place to meet some informed people. When I see that we are back in the place where the existence of CCD is a matter of faith, or opinion ...it's depressing. When it is suggested that it's a big scam it's further depressing. 

Bjorn,
Sorry I set your teeth on edge. I didn't mean to say that Dave H. had a lifetime of crap. I was saying that he had a lifetime of beekeeping. 

You want me to tell you what CCD is? Does it surprise you that I don't know. Nobody does. I'm truly not holding back. I immersed my self in it for a couple of months and looked into other occasions of disappearing disease. Just because this may disappear doesn't mean it wasn't there. 

The answer probably lies within the samples that were taken and are waiting in freezers to be analyzed. (waiting for money to do this). 

I'm not sure about ivory towers. Did I accuse you of that? I think the ivory tower types don't post here. The allusion to violence bothered me until I reread my post twice. I have no option to say Dave would "deck" anyone. Sorry.

If you are interested in my opinion, I'd vote with the others that it's a nutrition thing due to the drought. Good people are saying it's more than one thing.

Look for a challenging article by Randy Oliver soon. 

Kieth:
>>>>> I made up four framers in the first week in June this year and am worry I got to late of a start<<<<

He made them up in Oct and put them in FL...a thing he had been doing for years. FL is pretty nice at that time.

I read your post a couple of times and don't feel I understand you. Are you saying his losses and those of others are due to poor beekeeping?

Dickm


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"Does it surprise you that I don't know."

Welcome to the club. I wouldn't know CCD if it bit me in the butt. I think that's why people doubt it or throw out theories about it, because even the reseachers can't tell us what it is.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

*Puzzling*

I seen some Pictures at our bee meeting of a BK who lost 80 % of his hives and has only about 220 colonies left. the colonies are just holding on not getting any stronger. 

They cant find any one thing to what is causing it Many speculations but no satisfactory answers. They are saying most all the foragers are gone not much work activate going on in bring in new lecture and pollen they don't want to take feed.

Can't find any bunches of dead bees to test to see what has caused them to die. So if all the infected bees have died and they can't find any evidence in the remaining bees in the hive or in the combs, honey or pollen, or any genetic traits 

Now that all the infected bees are gone THE colonies should start bounding back But they are not.

If my remembering is correct Steve Taber wrote in the ABJ that they had raised some queens that the bees from them would not build comb 

I have also read they can breed bees that are lot better at collecting Pollen (some much better that they had to be feed because they would not store honey.

So in the past several years trying to breed to fight against v and t-mites with Resistance breeds could have they been breeding out in the process a longevity Gene in the stock with out knowing it Just like the pollen collecting Breed would not store honey or like the one that would not build comb.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Keith wrote,
>>>>> I made up four framers in the first week in June this year and am worry I got to late of a start<<<<

Dick wrote,
He made them up in Oct and put them in FL...a thing he had been doing for years. FL is pretty nice at that time.

Keith replies,
Dick, One thing that keeps coming up is "we've been doing this for years" song.

What I am saying is those days are gone, long gone.
Beekeepers have to change there ways, if they plan on staying in business.I can not stress this enough.

Just by going onto those hives in Oct like you said, puts large amounts of stress on them, guys are playing with fire and are getting burned. In the old days you could get away with allot more, but not in today beekeeping world.


>I read your post a couple of times and don't feel I understand you. Are you saying his losses and those of others are due to poor beekeeping?

That is correct. 
Just from what you describe, making splits in Oct, I chinged when I read that.

Dick, PM me with your #ph , it seems you have a good heart for your fellow keeper.


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## Panhandle Bee man (Oct 22, 2003)

I understood that the nucs were made up earlier in mid summer time in the north, then moved down here to Florida, for the meleluca/brazilian peper flows that end Oct/Nov time frame. Nucs made up then will easily grow into strong hives, and then can be used for winter polination, early spring nuc production, early honey crop. The beek in question is not the only migratory beek that does this, it is practised by others also. 

Here in Florida we also split hives in the Oct/Nov time frame. A 3 frame nuc in early Nov will be a full hive by early March with a little feeding.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

simply honey adds:
You might also want to look at the experiment with Dave Hackenburgs bees. Preliminary rumors have it that irratiating equipment may help, which would suggest a biological element. Perhaps not the only cause but certainly one of them...........if this holds water.

tecumseh replies:
I would think Jim Fischer is a bit better educated on this topic than most but I would expect nuclear irradiating equipment would also effect bioliogical, chemicals and virus elements within the old equipment.

I think two primary clues into the problem behind ccd is that in the first suggestion by the ivory tower guys was to return to the old 'terramycin' antibiotic for afb. I have yet to see why this recommendation was included in the list of thing to do before restocking dead outs.

During a normal year amongst migratory beekeepers about 20% of their hives will starve/parish either during the trip south or during the following winter. Perhaps I should have put normal year is quotation and ask each and eveyone here exactly how normal a year was 2006? If you do look at where the bees came from and where they were placed (I have yet to see a really detailed map in this regards) both ends of the migration route looked abnormal in regards to weather and in particular rainfall (rainfall being doubly important since certain ag chemical are not leached from the surface of the soil when rainfall is limited). In the more general maps presented as indicating where ccd had an effect for some reason Louisiana (which limits bring in bees in old equipment) and Mississippi seemed to have missed ccd thing entirely. 

the simply honey adds:
I would like to extent an open invatation to come visit and see some really unexplainable things in my apiary.

tecumseh replies:
same here. I got one hive in particular that is a real puzzler???? this one hive (with 20 healthy hives sittin' right next door) is why I would not totally exclude virus as a possible partial cause, plus I observed this same oddity in another hive last year at a different location. what I did see directly was a small limited patch of brood that appeared discolored. if caught early enough requeening these 'unexplained' yet effected hives seems to remedy the problem. it has been suggest to me by one queen breeder that some queen lines are suspect of not being resistent to certain virus (and I should add here that mites are highly suspect in the transmission of virus).


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

>>>>I think two primary clues into the problem behind ccd is that in the first suggestion by the ivory tower guys was to return to the old 'terramycin' antibiotic for afb. I have yet to see why this recommendation was included in the list of thing to do before restocking dead outs.<<<<

Tecumseh,
This is an easy one. It wasn't suggested for AFB but for EFB which was seen and assumed to be a result of other stressors. Tylan has not yet been proven effective for EFB.

>>>> I would expect nuclear irradiating equipment would also effect bioliogical, chemicals and virus elements within the old equipment.<<<<

Yes but not chemicals. I asked Dave a few weeks ago and he said the radiation "Made a lot of difference." 

>>>>If you do look at where the bees came from and where they were placed (I have yet to see a really detailed map in this regards) both ends of the migration route looked abnormal in regards to weather<<<<

Dave (We're not related really) says that all the bees were on crops for pollination that were treated with the same systemic pesticide.

>>>>and in particular rainfall (rainfall being doubly important since certain ag chemical are not leached from the surface of the soil when rainfall is limited).<<<<

You've hit on something. This disappearing disease had some innings in Australia. Some of the episode were called "Muck." There are 2 theories. 
1. that the forage was so poor that there weren't enough nutrients in the soil to nourish the bees.
2. That during the drought the PH of the soil changed. (Became more acid I think). This allowed the plants to take up more heavy metals and some of that got into the nectar and pollen.
It would resolve if you trapped OUT the local pollen and fed other pollen or substitute. I think it still happens occasionally.


Dickm


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## GA-BEE (Jan 20, 2004)

*Organic*

Just curious - are there any strictly ORANIC bk's of any size / location, reporting any loses?


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## Soocom1 (Jun 17, 2007)

First, let me express an apology of sorts. It wan NOT my intent to get people riled up here. This is degrading into a Ford-Chevy/ Nikon-Canon debate. Sorry folks. 
My intent was to find out what people KNEW about CCD. NOT fight over it. Upon my initial investigation into CCD, I found little if anything on the net. Now as time passes, I see more and more, which leaves to other links with even better information. This is fine. 

Where I think everyone (my opinion) needs to focus on is not the various conspiracy theories, but rather on what has ACTUALLY happened. Political pressures in this country has degraded our ability to disseminate something that needs to be figured out. if we cannot agree on that, then the conspiracies win out, and we all loose. 

My attempt to ask the question is based on information I personally would expect to find available, but was not. I.e. GIS information, (to which I yet am not able to find). This is significant because I can find tons of information on West Nile Virus and invasive species including Afracanized bees. 

Up to this point, I have read several very credible aspects to this including possible liver and/or kidney toxicity. If that is the case, then we could find the culprit almost immediately. But we have not yet done so. 

For the Ivory Tower guys and thier opposites, just remember this. If CCD is a hoax, then we have all been had by one or more opportunists. If it is real, then it is a real and serious threat that needs to be dealt with rather than debated forever like global warming. There wont be a 'consciences of thought' if the crops fail folks. That will be real, tangible and very profound. 

My advice (strictly as a novice) is to stand down, and look at the problem and solve it!


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Keith and Borjon,
My teeth are sharpened along with my claws! 
First off Keith you cant compare Ca and Fl.....It is normal and good beekeeping practice to start nucs in late OCt in Fl.....I had 80% success two yrs ago! There is still a pollen flow with nectar coming in! IT IS NOT BAD BEEKEEPING and definately will not hurt a good hive....I even made spilts In Jan out of strong hives and made over 100 lbs honey from orange.....but this wouldnt work in northern Ca or for that matter Alaska! To say that it is bad beekeeping shows a lack of knowlege and I can guarantee it didnt cause CCD! and yes i agree it is a new day.........but you are 100% wrong to say making splits in oct in Fl is bad beekeeping!

NOw for you Borjon, since you live close to Mr. Hackenburg it seems to me that you may not like him or have a bias against him. I knon him for 25 years, worked beside him and know that he is one of the better beekeepers in US and if you ask a number of commercial beekeepers who understand keeping bees is differant when you have 1,000 vs 5 colonies they will all tell you he is a good beekeeper. If this wasnt a family area I would tell you where to shove it! When it all comes down about CCD I'll bet you will eat alot of crow! Yes we migratory beekeepers move bees and that stresses them. And yes some use chemicals off label, and i have but I wont use chumosphos(sp).......I would bet the farm it is much worse than using MAverik. To blame him and his management for CCD to me show a lack of knowledge about CCD and common sense along with a certain degree of bias! Many differant beekeepers for many differant parts of the country have had CCD........It will be interesting when more have it this year and Mr. Hackenburg doesnt get his so hard since he is not putting bees in areas with systemic insecticides! I am putting 32 hives in a location with soybans treated with imiadcloprid and corn beside it that is both GMo and seed treated with neonictineoids. Will be interesting to see what happens. I am also trying to use only thiamol(sp) along with formic acid to control mites. I will NEVER use chumuphos again! I did use A UNLABELED produce two years ago when I had a high build up of mites in about 40 hives............and incidentually those 40 hives were no differant than the ones I treated with Dadant thymol! Would love to watch David Hackenburg feed you crow feathers!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

>Keith and Borjon,

Sutton wrote,

> To say that it is bad beekeeping shows a lack of knowlege 

I would beecarefull here, What I did say is that first, splitting hives is STRESSFULL on the bees, TRUCKING them again is STRESSFULL. That along with this topic CCD is bad management when you hives failing on you and the keepers is ???. That where I would start STRESS STRESS

>and I can guarantee it didnt cause CCD! 

There you go again, the only thing you can't guarantee is what wrong with this picture.


>and yes i agree it is a new day.........

Now were getting somewhere.

I freind of mine ( yes i have one) moved seven times in summer pollination, by aug his bess were going backwards he end up with 90% losses. Now, he does three and then moves into the safflower flow around june 15 for two months without moving them. Gee, guess what, no more losses.

Now, does that mean, thats your cause, NO, but you have to sit back and look at eveything your doing that might cause them to fail.

>but you are 100% wrong 

Well, tell that to someone who nets $200 a hive plus.

P.S. I split about 500 in Jan 25. 

> NOw for you Borjon, 

Well, your on your own Bjorn, but I think you will do just fine.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Keith, Are you talking about sutton's comments? They mean little to me. They are mainly his opinion and usually talk of "feathers" is filler and fluff.

I don't worry about someone who mentioned or claims "bias" with another's comments, and at the same time mentions "Knowing him for 25 years".

I see nothing but rhetoric comments, claims lodged against others that he knows nothing about, bias on his part, and unfounded comments. I find the whole "it could never be a beekeepers fault" interesting. 

The whole "I'm going to place 25 (whatever number it was) hives next to soybeans" and somehow this is to mean something, like were expecting this to answer the many questions of CCD, is garbage science and just shows the total ignorance in the problem to begin with. Anyone looking to connect the dots and add up the pieces of the puzzle in such a manner is living in fantasy land. But thats just my "biased" opinion....


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I want to add something before this gets out of hand, with all the assumptions and the direction this has taken.

Let me say. I have no bias against Dave H. Not sure he would even know who I was if I met him on the street. Except for seeing him at conventions, our discussion time has been short and brief.

My bias is based on the beekeeping industry and commercial beekeepers in general. Yes, Dave falls into that catagory. And of course Dave has made sure his "problem" has been highlighted and has been the spokesperson of sorts for the pesticide poisoning crowd. So of course his name comes up in conversations. But thats just the way it is.

I have never inspected Dave's hives. I have inspected other commercial beekeepers hives. The other commercial beekeepers last year (fall)had very high mite counts, with deformed wing, pms, and other visual problems. They were not in good shape. They just shrugged it off and said they would "hit them good" before they loaded on the trucks to California. Of course, these are some of the same hives I see with all kinds of home-made treatments with panty liners, laced grease patties, etc. So some of my comments are from what I see within the industry in general. Not sure if the average beekeeper knows about some of the practices that goes on in the commercial circles. Sticking your nose in the air and claiming years of experience, or friendship circles, only masks the possibilities and hides the truth.

What I don't do, is limit my scope of my questions in regards to CCD, based on having a meeting with Dave, or knowing him for a certain number of years. I don't hide my head in the sand, and give a "pass" to anyone based on such criteria. The industry needs to look at all possibilities, regardless of who may be offended, or effected.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Bjorn wrote,
>Keith, Are you talking about sutton's comments? 
They mean little to me 

Bjorn, I dont know what think about all of this at times.

There are some here with great passion, as shown by there writing. I am not offended by this, but sometimes I wonder, should I keep to myself and let these keepers go down the same path?? After all, they have been doing this for twenty five years, they certainly don't need my imput.

But let me see, less bees for pollination (CCD) (supply/demand)
means more for Keith's bees since he has no problems with his and is very open minded to what going on.

Lets see here, they come to Calif, bees die then they call Keith up for bulk bees to restock.

Bjorn, I shook over ten thousand pounds this spring, hmmm, should I try for $300 per hive avg???

Sounds like this so called CCD could bee very good for Keith's profits.

Or you could listen to Keith, take his points for what there worth.

Success, Sucessfull.... what does it mean and how do you become one of them.

When I find somebody that stands out in there feild, I do everything I can to learn from them, that is, if they will open up, and offer any pointers (help).

It's to bad that some here, that need the help, dont know how to go about getting it.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Keith, I agree with everything you said.

But much of what is spoken here could be taken several different ways. In saying "They mean little to me", I want it to be clear, its in relationship to saying one belieives this or that based on knowing someone a certain number of years. It also means little to me when someone attcks or starts labeling what I say as "biased" or some other attack. It means little to me as it won't harm me so "say what you want", and it usually adds little to the discussion.

This is not to be confused with belittling or disrespecting someone's experience or professionalism. There are many who blow me away in both areas. It does matter to me to be engaged and in discussion with those on beesource. My comments are in the context of being attacked somehow labeling me as biased, or assuming I give more wieght in a comment becuase someone knows someone else for twenty five years. These mean little to me.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Bjorn, well said.

A person that has twent five years of beekeeping , does not mean that he /she is a model for beekeeping, that should be followed.

Also, I very much agree with you on,

back yard type projects, one time experiments, ie, " gosh it worked the last (first) time I try that, dont know why I have a differant out come this time.Gee, it worked two years ago.

Follow the successfull beekeepers, that's what I would do.

Bjorn, I don't see any bais with your post's, what I see is your questioning for data and proof to back up there claims.


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